# Aggressive..Antisocial..Uncivilised.. JRT



## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Hi All :smile:

Eventually got myself another JRT after losing my last wee guy at thirteen yrs over a year ago. I opted for a 'rescue' as opposed to a puppy, he's twelve months old #-o. He's been in residence for twelve days now, along with my GSD and senior cat, and the house has been turned on it's head. 

I've been allowing him to settle in mainly since he arrived, plus he has been nursing a rather huge and nasty abcessed bite on the head, kind courtesy of my gsd on the day after he arrived, he's also got his voice back now after roaring himself hoarse.

I've taken on board the tip, don't pick a fight with a dog that likes to fight.... I'm too scared to play tug with the little focker and it's time for training !!!

Would appreciate input from the small terrier people and Rick if he's around .


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

you have fun with that maggie!!


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Hi Maggie! How have you been? Your post reminds me of what Don and a few others used to say. "At the end of the day we get the dogs we deserve." ha ha. Good luck with that one.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

maggie fraser said:


> Hi All :smile:
> 
> Eventually got myself another JRT after losing my last wee guy at thirteen yrs over a year ago. I opted for a 'rescue' as opposed to a puppy, he's twelve months old #-o. He's been in residence for twelve days now, along with my GSD and senior cat, and the house has been turned on it's head.
> 
> ...


I know that Bob will see the thread and snicker, but I'd like to as well. :lol: There are Border Terriers in my family. :mrgreen: :mrgreen:



Marker training could have been invented for these guys, IMHO. 

Start with food, and heed this advice from Michael Ellis, is what I would urge. JMO! 

http://leerburg.com/flix/videodesc.php?id=206
_Michael explains when and why to use food to train your dog and then when to switch to toys. He explains what needs to be in place before toys can be used as a reward in dog training.
_


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

maggie fraser said:


> Hi All :smile:
> 
> Eventually got myself another JRT after losing my last wee guy at thirteen yrs over a year ago. I opted for a 'rescue' as opposed to a puppy, he's twelve months old #-o. He's been in residence for twelve days now, along with my GSD and senior cat, and the house has been turned on it's head.
> 
> ...


 
Boy and I thought I was a sucker for a doggie sob story. Food and NILIF [Nothing In Life Is Free].

T


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Congrats Maggie and have fun with him!!! 

And ditto NILIF


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

:twisted: snicker, snicker:twisted:
Sorry Maggie. That was to hard to resist. I LOVE the crazy little bassids! 
Chances are that he's a rescue because he was allowed to be a PIA. I may get flack but I'll put the little bassisds right at the top of the list with Mals, Border Collies and many of the terriers for having more drive then most folks can handle. Size means nothing to them. 
Is he being aggressive to you or just the other dogs? Having been bitten by one of them chances are he's going to be on a vendetta from here on. 
The ony one of my terriers I ever had trouble with was a JRT that wasn't as stable as one should be. He was nucking futs! Didn't like on of my GSDs but refused to get out of the GSDs face. Not the crazy, high drive, normal terrier. Just nucking futs! I could be with them all day but turn my back and the little bassid would be trying to stand over my GSD. Not a pretty picture and for sure not a good move.
I wouldn't be afraid to play tug with yours as long as he knows the rules. Maybe start out with a flirt pole and see how he reacts to that. 
Raising a dog from a pup is a piece of cake compared to taking in a dog with problems you know nothing about. 
How about marker training? It really works! Honest! It's all about knowing the rules just as any other training method. 

"Settle in?"
Most young terriers walk in expecting everyone to bow to them....No, I should have said DEMANDING everyone bow to their every wish. :wink:


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Maggie - don't give in!!

If I may say so, allowing the young dog "to settle in" was not good. This applies to pups or any dogs that you adopt. As Bob says, this gives them the feeling that they have the run of the roost before you start to assert yourself. But you know this.

As for your GSD "nibbling" him - this might be a clue to how you should handle the mini Cassius Clay. I detect a note of sympathy here?

We had two JRT's in England - the dog from the Cheshire Hunt was terrific with humans but would have attacked any 4-legged creature on earth except for my brother's large Labrador dog who stayed with us in the holidays. He succombed to him like a baby. He used to more or less follow the Spaniel around but when the Labrador arrived, he was a sucker!!

Watching dogs interact, especially in one's own household, is more than useful.

Maggie, you're a braw wee lassie, don't let this squirt on four legs get the better of you - you can do better \\/


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Hi and thanks all :-D.

Cheers Anne and Brad, I very much intend having fun with this wee guy, I can't stop grinning from ear to ear! Hubby is calling him the stunt dog right now on account of him rocking over his carry crate in the motor today, in addition to near rolling his house crate last night when we were treated to a full display of just how extreme his temper is. The neighbours have also been very politely ignoring the din when we bring him in and out, we've been getting laffed at too from doggie folks out at the beach. More on that later...

Nicole, I am good, how are you? I kinda go with that 'you end up with the dog you deserve' too, what more can I say  ?

Hi Connie, thanks for the link. I do intend to use marker training with him, although I have started to use some compulsion with him out walking,, he is utterly outrageous on a leash. He throws his full weight into the collar and goes at the gallop, and bends his spine round so he gets good purchase, weaving in front of you as he goes. I don't think he has been walked much either on account of him having very long nails which he 'allowed' me to trim seven or eight of before he said that was enuff :wink:.

Hi Terrasita, doggie sob story ?? I don't think it is a sob story, not really, I've been looking around over the past year at a few litters, just didn't ever see the guy for me. Many of the pups/dogs I've seen seemed to lack that 'proper' Jack Russell quality for me, this guy's got it.. in spades!

Hi Bob, _I wouldn't be afraid to play tug with yours as long as he knows the rules. _Neither would I Bob :wink:. He has rules though, we had a very small game when he first arrived, he goes for your hands immediately, puts teeth on you but does not bite down too hard. He gives you a warning!!
so, no more tug games for now. I bought him a small latex ball around ten days ago, unbelievably it is still intact, I don't ever take it from him but he has lately begun to drop it into my hand to throw on the odd occasion.

He's been used to children and likes them, he also likes people... I think he has been spoiled and he is a very assertive, bold as brass character. I was told he doesn't like other dogs, I actually think he does like dogs. Bumped into a couple I know who have two humungus Leonbergers, the wee guy was roaring and gasping to get to them, so I gave him the slack on the leash. He louped straight into them and nearly wagged his tail right off, he absolutely loved them, but he takes off into lala land when he spots other dogs.

The incident with my gsd, he started it, both myself and hubby were right there, I kind of wonder if Luc may have killed him if we weren't. What is more troubling though is that the wee guy still doesn't seem to get it! More on that later... I believe he has had at least two homes and that is really all I know of him, I would say at this stage he was in rescue because he had become too difficult to manage, and I am more than certain he would bite you for a correction and certainly for trying to remove something from him which he does not want to give up. Hence the marker training being a great idea . 

Hi Gillian, my idea of the settling in is for him to see and understand who lives in the house from behind bars. He is still getting overexcited when Luc goes by from time to time and kicks off pretty vigorously, and the cat well, he is still not coping with but we are making progress. My cat is eighteen years old and she has trained three Jack Russells and to date, no-one ever got so much as a scratch. She was seriously rattled by this wee guy the first week, she is now though, very much working on him. I keep a squeezy water bottle by me.... gotta go, will be back later


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

On the nail trimming. Mt brother got his Presa when it was three yrs old. Great dog, great manners but my brother was told that nobody could trim his nails without tying the dog down.
The vet and the groomer would have anything to do with is nails he was so nasty about them.
With markers my brother was doing his nails while he laid on his side and this took just short of two weeks. 
Touch his feet and mark and reward. touch his feet with nail clippers then mark and reward. Just build to the first clip and don't worry about length at this point. You don't want to make it a bad experience. Sounds like a good start though.
Dropping the latex ball in you hands is a HUGE sign in my books. A retrieve shows biddibility in a dog.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> On the nail trimming. Mt brother got his Presa when it was three yrs old. Great dog, great manners but my brother was told that nobody could trim his nails without tying the dog down.
> The vet and the groomer would have anything to do with is nails he was so nasty about them.
> With markers my brother was doing his nails while he laid on his side and this took just short of two weeks.
> Touch his feet and mark and reward. touch his feet with nail clippers then mark and reward. Just build to the first clip and don't worry about length at this point. You don't want to make it a bad experience. Sounds like a good start though.
> Dropping the latex ball in you hands is a HUGE sign in my books. A retrieve shows biddibility in a dog.


Thanks Bob, I think he may be a very nice dog, just a little challenging at the moment :smile: , had to hot compress his abcess for over a week, he came to accept that unrestrained so I think we're getting somewhere.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Maggie, leave it to you to breath some life and fun back into the forum and with a wild ass smally of all things. Good. Nothing like the life and times with a dog that brings to you gritted teeth and grins that make your face hurt. I look forward to seeing how this all comes together for you guys.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> On the nail trimming. M[y] brother got his Presa when it was three yrs old. Great dog, great manners but my brother was told that nobody could trim his nails without tying the dog down.
> The vet and the groomer would have anything to do with is nails he was so nasty about them.
> With markers my brother was doing his nails while he laid on his side and this took just short of two weeks.
> Touch his feet and mark and reward. touch his feet with nail clippers then mark and reward. Just build to the first clip and don't worry about length at this point. You don't want to make it a bad experience. Sounds like a good start though.


And just a P.S.: one claw is plenty, after the touch-and-m/r routine for a few days. There is no law about every claw being done on the same day.

All my dogs are marker-trained for "procedures." 

This work for me may even involve something like bits of bacon or equally high-value rewards. 

The most recent addition had a lacerated and infected eyeball before he had had any "procedures" training, and he needed something dropped into or applied to his very sore eye by a relative stranger, me, almost every hour for days, as well as drops and bright lights into that eye at the vet's every other day.  

So procedures training had to move right along, and warm bacon helped a lot. :lol: 

With this work done ahead of time, especially around the paws, face, and ears, I don't have to restrain any of them for a procedure. 

This is great for me, the dog, and the vet.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Nicole Stark said:


> Maggie, leave it to you to breath some life and fun back into the forum and with a wild ass smally of all things. Good. Nothing like the life and times with a dog that brings to you gritted teeth and grins that make your face hurt. I look forward to seeing how this all comes together for you guys.



:lol:


Me too.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Our younger GSD was impossible to handle if his nails were to be cut. After my other dogs who, especially, the Briard, just took it in their stride - this one only knew when he was beaten. I chained him tightly to a post in the garage and cut his nails by holding out his paws backwards.

He was a dark pigmented GSD and his nails were black and hard.

Sometimes I think that "coaxing" a dog to submit, makes him nervious and difficult to handle.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Glad to see you're back, Maggie! It's been so long since your last post I was beginning to wonder if you had wandered off into the moors and got lost!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

maggie fraser said:


> Thanks Bob, I think he may be a very nice dog, just a little challenging at the moment :smile: , had to hot compress his abcess for over a week, he came to accept that unrestrained so I think we're getting somewhere.



Sounds like a winner to me. Just needed a we bit of leadership. ;-)


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Hi All :lol:

This little dog is so fkn horrible. Took him out to the beach again today, perfect, still and sunny autumn day, quite a lot of dogs were there having fun, but it was by no means crowded. He was hyper, overexcited for prolly 55 mins of the hour we were there, had to take him onto the beach via the rocks and seaweed,,,help to keep him focused. I can't quite believe just how mental he is, it's exhausting.

I get him home and we had some time to ourselves this afternoon, he appears to be very trainable. Bought him a wooden jigsaw toy thing with levers and stuff with compartments to hide treats in,, thought it could be a nice toy to help him unwind with. Today, he knows, sit, stay, and a wait... and of course, he is already a master with his new toy.

I roared NO at him wwhen he was humping hubby's arm on the couch, and he was really kinda cranking up and getting into it..... it is the first time he has demonstrated an understanding of NO since he arrived ! :smile:


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Hi again, Maggie !
my sweet little fur ball didn't have many issues when i first got him either 
- i could understand why he would rather snap/clack his teeth and charge anyone coming close to him 
- and mutilating perfectly healthy cats was just a "wild dog" natural behavior 
- learning to bark was just an expression of how intelligent he was 
trying to run off every dog he saw just showed how glad he was to be away from his first owner and safe with me 
- was sure glad the old lady he bit in the butt had a sense of humor and liked Starbucks ground coffee 
...and it got worse b4 it got better, but i loved every minute of it 
...OK, the last statement was a lie, but it has been fun :lol:


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

rick smith said:


> Hi again, Maggie !
> my sweet little fur ball didn't have many issues when i first got him either
> - i could understand why he would rather snap/clack his teeth and charge anyone coming close to him
> - and mutilating perfectly healthy cats was just a "wild dog" natural behavior
> ...


:lol: Lol Rick, I spat the dummy at the weekend and advertised the wee horror for sale. Got myself plenty of enquiries, but the more I replied to those interested, the more I realised he would be staying.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> Glad to see you're back, Maggie! It's been so long since your last post I was beginning to wonder if you had wandered off into the moors and got lost!


Thanks Susan :-D, a change is as good as a rest to a blind horse as we say over here :-D


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Maggie - don't give in!!
> 
> If I may say so, allowing the young dog "to settle in" was not good. This applies to pups or any dogs that you adopt. As Bob says, this gives them the feeling that they have the run of the roost before you start to assert yourself. But you know this.
> 
> ...


Hi Gillian, thanks for the vote of confidence \\/ This wee guy's just a typical jrt I think.... fight first. talk later, kinda ahead of himself. Making bounds with him with marker training, he's brilliant around the house now, really clever wee guy, just flips out when we go out now LOL.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

maggie fraser said:


> Hi Gillian, thanks for the vote of confidence \\/ This wee guy's just a typical jrt I think.... fight first. talk later, kinda ahead of himself. Making bounds with him with marker training, he's brilliant around the house now, really clever wee guy, just flips out when we go out now LOL.


I know I said it before, but marker training and those crazy lil bassids are made for each other. :lol:

How's his head wound, Maggie?


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I know I said it before, but marker training and those crazy lil bassids are made for each other. :lol:
> 
> How's his head wound, Maggie?


Yeah Connie, his wound has been healing up very nicely and all swelling is gone, he no longer has that Romanesque look, reckon he'll be sporting himself a nice wee battle scar. I think you're bang on with the marker training for these guys, he's really responding to it and learning very fast, and he seems right into it at least for now .


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

" I think you're bang on with the marker training for these guys,"

I've said it a hundred times. "Why fight a dog that loves to fight". 
Couldn't be more truth to that then with a good terrier. :wink:


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> " I think you're bang on with the marker training for these guys,"
> 
> I've said it a hundred times. "Why fight a dog that loves to fight".
> Couldn't be more truth to that then with a good terrier. :wink:


Bob, true - but I guess it's because I like the fight . As Maggie said of her JRT, we like the fight, talk later!!


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

After three and a bit weeks, and some quiet marker training about the house, we hit our first indoor training class tonight and it was OUTSTANDING! We weren't asked to leave!  The down side though, we were informed we may well probably be asked to leave after next week :-k.

I'm chuffed to bits (as well as completely exhausted), after fifty odd minutes of trying to kill every other dog there and roaring his head off, I eventually got his attention. He even got himself a girlfriend... a wee Boarder Terrier Lol


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

maggie fraser said:


> After three and a bit weeks, and some quiet marker training about the house, we hit our first indoor training class tonight and it was OUTSTANDING! We weren't asked to leave!  The down side though, we were informed we may well probably be asked to leave after next week :-k.
> 
> I'm chuffed to bits (as well as completely exhausted), after fifty odd minutes of trying to kill every other dog there and roaring his head off, I eventually got his attention. He even got himself a girlfriend... a wee Boarder Terrier Lol


I tip my hat to your chutzpah that you enrolled him in group classes. :lol: :lol:


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I tip my hat to your chutzpah that you enrolled him in group classes. :lol: :lol:


I know, I was thinking I should really have a word with myself :lol: . Even if next week is our last class, he will be a better dog for it...I can't stop grinning from ear to ear, felt I made a LOT of progress with this wee dog tonight . The Boarder Terrier owner was quite chatty too ;-):lol:.


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## Rachael Lincoln (Jun 18, 2012)

I grew up with JRTs and love them, though I have no plans on ever living with one again. 
I am a big fan of marker training with them as well. As we say in our family, you need to Squash the terrier a bit. As small as they are they are bigger and badder than any dog around.....just ask them!
Good Luck! I can't wait to hear more updates!


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Hey Maggie how about a little video clip for us of this smally? I had to laugh at the thought of that as I could imagine endless barking, clawing and scratching, up on everything, dishes crashing, lamps being knocked over, cats being chased, babies crying, commands being ignored, LOL.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

_I could imagine endless barking, clawing and scratching, up on everything, dishes crashing, lamps being knocked over, cats being chased, babies crying, commands being ignored_..... 

.... buildings toppling, extra police shifts called in, exorcisms planned .....






:lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Connie Sutherland said:


> _I could imagine endless barking, clawing and scratching, up on everything, dishes crashing, lamps being knocked over, cats being chased, babies crying, commands being ignored_.....
> 
> .... buildings toppling, extra police shifts called in, exorcisms planned .....
> 
> ...


Alas, I think I found a co author for the childrens books I planned on writing. \\/


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Nicole Stark said:


> .... I think I found a co author for the childrens books I planned on writing. \\/


We owe it to society. The children are our future.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Bob, true - but I guess it's because I like the fight . As Maggie said of her JRT, we like the fight, talk later!!



I guess I do admire it in the little bassids. :lol:


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Take pictures, not video. If you are good, you can just tell stories (lies) about the pictures, and forget the training!!!!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> Take pictures, not video. If you are good, you can just tell stories (lies) about the pictures, and forget the training!!!!


Well, don't you need a collection of cushions for that to be really effective?



(I apologize for the sub-topic. :lol: )


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Video ?? Pictures ?? Y'all must be mad, I need two hands, two feet, two eyes, no ears and two brains to keep on top of this wee guy. 

Made my first ever youtube vid,, Wee Joe having a quieter moment today, enjoy....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRyLIKSsu3Y&feature=vmdshb


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

maggie fraser said:


> Made my first ever youtube vid,, Wee Joe having a quieter moment today, enjoy....
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRyLIKSsu3Y&feature=vmdshb



I recognize that bark pitch! :lol:


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> Take pictures, not video. If you are good, you can just tell stories (lies) about the pictures, and forget the training!!!!


:lol: I'll go gettin' that Koehler book out now....that way I can sound like I know what I'm not talking about ! 

How you doing Dave ? :smile:


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Nicole Stark said:


> Hey Maggie how about a little video clip for us of this smally? I had to laugh at the thought of that as I could imagine endless barking, clawing and scratching, up on everything, dishes crashing, lamps being knocked over, cats being chased, babies crying, commands being ignored, LOL.


Today he was flying around the house (almost literally), he leaped onto the table which I had given a polish yesterday, and slid the six feet on his ass pushing a wooden chopping board through the air,, thought it was going to smash the window. Now,, where did I put that pillow ?? :-s

He's humping hubby's arm right now on the sofa, the more hubby pushes him off,,, the more vigorous he gets.


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## Rachael Lincoln (Jun 18, 2012)

Wowzers.......tell your husband those are the hazards of being a good looking man!


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

maggie fraser said:


> Today he was flying around the house (almost literally), he leaped onto the table which I had given a polish yesterday, and slid the six feet on his ass pushing a wooden chopping board through the air,, thought it was going to smash the window.


I'd be doing some whippin' for that last part which I dropped off but I could just visualize some of what you were talking about above. Last week I did some hides in the house. As the mastiff stood like a bridge from the top of an arm chair and over onto the coffee table searching in a lamp and picture on the wall, she quickly reminded me why I stopped doing that.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Nicole Stark said:


> .... Last week I did some hides in the house. As the mastiff stood like a bridge from the top of an arm chair and over onto the coffee table searching in a lamp and picture on the wall, she quickly reminded me why I stopped doing that.




:lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Connie Sutherland said:


> :lol: :lol: :lol:


Um yea, I left off the part about her almost ripping the curtains off the wall, tossing the throw pillows onto the floor, digging out the couch cusions and in the cracks, moving the couch, rearing up on the table below the flat panel. I thought for sure she was going to knock everything off of it. There's scratches on that end (not coffee) table now. [-X

Intellingence apparently isn't my strong suit. #-o


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Nicole Stark said:


> I'd be doing some whippin' for that last part


Come on, it's early days yet !! I'll have him check what's on the table before he pulls that stunt again... I did have a word with him, and showed him a chair that would help facilitate a smoother delivery minus the potential catastrophe. He's smart,,, we'll get there!


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

I was watching a show about dogs on TV the other night and this guy had 3 Jack Russells that worked getting rid of rats. He arrived at this barn with them, 3 tiny wee dogs they were. Anyway they started movng bales of hay with a fork lift and the rats started pouring out. These JRTS were totally flying in all directions and quickly and ferociously dispatching rats that were almost bigger than them LOL. They were awesome little terrors, those rats were huge. The JRTS were like little killing machines.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Sara Waters said:


> I was watching a show about dogs on TV the other night and this guy had 3 Jack Russells that worked getting rid of rats. He arrived at this barn with them, 3 tiny wee dogs they were. Anyway they started movng bales of hay with a fork lift and the rats started pouring out. These JRTS were totally flying in all directions and quickly and ferociously dispatching rats that were almost bigger than them LOL. They were awesome little terrors, those rats were huge. The JRTS were like little killing machines.


That's an absolutely disgusting image. YUCK.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Nicole Stark said:


> That's an absolutely disgusting image. YUCK.


The presenter was slightly taken aback as well. The look on his face. I dont think he was prepared for what unfolded at all. 

I suppose I am well used to having to dispatch rats and mice from the barns and stored feed, probably a quicker way of dying than by poison, very instant. You could see what they were bred to do though. I doubt too many breeds would be as effecient as they were. People think they are cute and are not prepared for what can lie within.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

My wife has a cute little rat terrier female with a nasty streak as far as rodents is concerned. Rat baiting used to be a popular sport in the 1800's


According to the Sporting Chronicle Annual, the world record in rat killing is held by a black and tan Bull Terrier named "Jacko" weighing about thirteen pounds and owned by Jemmy Shaw.[4] Jacko had the following contest results:
Engraving from Police Gazette
Date Rats Killed Time Time per Rat
1861-08-08 25 1 minute, 28 seconds 3.5 seconds
1862-07-29 60 2 minutes, 42 seconds 2.7 seconds * Record
1862-05-01 100 5 minutes, 28 seconds 3.3 seconds * Record
1862-06-10 200 14 minutes, 37 seconds 4.4 seconds
1862-05-01 1000 in less than 100 minutes 6.0 seconds


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

maggie fraser said:


> Made my first ever youtube vid,, Wee Joe having a quieter moment today, enjoy....
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRyLIKSsu3Y&feature=vmdshb


Ha, ha what an asshole. Two things I cannot stand, barking dogs and naughty children. Looks like your marker training is working. \\/


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Sara Waters said:


> The presenter was slightly taken aback as well. The look on his face. I dont think he was prepared for what unfolded at all.
> 
> I suppose I am well used to having to dispatch rats and mice from the barns and stored feed, probably a quicker way of dying than by poison, very instant. You could see what they were bred to do though. I doubt too many breeds would be as effecient as they were. People think they are cute and are not prepared for what can lie within.


AH! Stop it! Can you tell I would have failed fear factor?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

A rat terrier rat killing record

Rat terriers were used for both vermin control and for rat pit contests, where men bet on how many rats in a pit a dog could kill in a certain time period. A rat terrier holds the rat killing record of 2501 rats in a seven hour period in an infested barn.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> A rat terrier rat killing record
> 
> Rat terriers were used for both vermin control and for rat pit contests, where men bet on how many rats in a pit a dog could kill in a certain time period. A rat terrier holds the rat killing record of 2501 rats in a seven hour period in an infested barn.


It just gets better and better. Anyone else have a delicious rat morsel that they want to share here? :evil:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Sara Waters said:


> I was watching a show about dogs on TV the other night and this guy had 3 Jack Russells that worked getting rid of rats. He arrived at this barn with them, 3 tiny wee dogs they were. Anyway they started movng bales of hay with a fork lift and the rats started pouring out. These JRTS were totally flying in all directions and quickly and ferociously dispatching rats that were almost bigger than them LOL. They were awesome little terrors, those rats were huge. The JRTS were like little killing machines.



Been there, done that! Hog farms are great also! :twisted:

Maggie! Ya got yerself a lowrider! :-o 
The short legged JRTs aren't recognized by the JRTCA here but the UKC here and the CKC in Canada recognize them. For hunting they aren't as flexible and are to wide in the front for the earths here in the States. Still every bit a terror!


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Been there, done that! Hog farms are great also! :twisted:
> 
> Maggie! Ya got yerself a lowrider! :-o
> The short legged JRTs aren't recognized by the JRTCA here but the UKC here and the CKC in Canada recognize them. For hunting they aren't as flexible and are to wide in the front for the earths here in the States. Still every bit a terror!


The tiny guys, like my wee guy here are/were very popular around farms and stables for catching the rats, I think I've seen the film Sara refers to. They are just so uber quick and sharp and tiny and ferocious . They aren't recognized by the KC here either, I absolutely love the conformation on this wee guy, straight in the leg and robust.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

But do they clean up after their kills? LOL My Malinois Cali will kill any rat or mouse she finds (chomp chomp done) but then she will pick up the body and go drop it in the garbage can for me to  Very handy out at the barn, and when the occasional mouse finds it's way into my garage 

Sounds like you have a fun one Maggie, I really liked my little JRT. One of these days ...


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> But do they clean up after their kills? LOL My Malinois Cali will kill any rat or mouse she finds (chomp chomp done) but then she will pick up the body and go drop it in the garbage can for me to  Very handy out at the barn, and when the occasional mouse finds it's way into my garage
> 
> Sounds like you have a fun one Maggie, I really liked my little JRT. One of these days ...


A previous GSD and JRT I had would go mousing in the field together, and whilst your story is very impressive, my story is much tidier LOL, no bodies left lying around. The GSD was particularly good at finding the nests and stomping them out,,,,the jrt was ready for the purge . Having two jrts and a feral cat on the place, and two gsds who took up mousing as the odd hobby, vermin never really became a problem for me.

Bash on and get another one... it's amazing how much they turn the place upside down, I had _almost_ forgotten!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

A Norwich terrier (show line) I had wasn't worth a crap on vermin other then mice. The problem was that he swallowed them as fast as he caught them. That's a huge no, no to a terrier man. It should be a quick snap and then leave it.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

And it gets more disgusting. I cannot even imagine what it might be like to have a live mouse in my stomach. I need to go puke now.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Nicole Stark said:


> And it gets more disgusting. I cannot even imagine what it might be like to have a live mouse in my stomach. I need to go puke now.


Think about grabbing it by the tail before it goes down and yanking it back out. C'mon country gal! You can't be that much of a sissy! :lol: :wink:


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

We had a whippet that did the same in our hayshed. Swallowed live mice whole. Eww


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> Think about grabbing it by the tail before it goes down and yanking it back out. C'mon country gal! You can't be that much of a sissy! :lol: :wink:


Aw Bob.

I got the mumps, had a real high fever, and kinda got delirious. The puppies in the drawer somehow became rats and that's where it started. What the hell, I was 5 at the time. When you're little sometimes stuff doesn't make sense or rather, it makes the sense it should in the mind you have at the time.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

:wink: You don't have to be little. My dad was an Irish roughneck that took no crap from anyone and gave out more then his share.......but he was petrified of mice.
He would damn near toss me out of his house if I started talking about some of my rat hunting adventures with the terriers. :lol:


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Bob Scott said:


> :wink: You don't have to be little. My dad was an Irish roughneck that took no crap from anyone and gave out more then his share.......but he was petrified of mice.
> He would damn near toss me out of his house if I started talking about some of my rat hunting adventures with the terriers. :lol:


I think mice can do that. I deal with mice on a regular basis, but was down at an agility trial when I noticed a couple of terrier type dogs stopping at a certain place on the course. When it came our turn to walk the next course in that ring I had a closer look and there was a dead mouse. I told the male judge and he proceeded to pick it up by the tail and chase the primarily female handlers walking the course, everybody including myself ran, some screaming loudly.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Sara Waters said:


> I think mice can do that. I deal with mice on a regular basis, but was down at an agility trial when I noticed a couple of terrier type dogs stopping at a certain place on the course. When it came our turn to walk the next course in that ring I had a closer look and there was a dead mouse. I told the male judge and he proceeded to pick it up by the tail and chase the primarily female handlers walking the course, everybody including myself ran, some screaming loudly.




It would be interesting if one of the ladies took the mouse away from the male judge and beat him over the head with it. 
Both my daughters would be up for that. :twisted:


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Bob Scott said:


> It would be interesting if one of the ladies took the mouse away from the male judge and beat him over the head with it.
> Both my daughters would be up for that. :twisted:


That would be funny LOL. We did have a good laugh afterwards though, once the mouse was dispatched. I wouldnt be surprised if he gets some pay back down the track.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> A Norwich terrier (show line) I had wasn't worth a crap on vermin other then mice. The problem was that he swallowed them as fast as he caught them. That's a huge no, no to a terrier man. It should be a quick snap and then leave it.


My jrt's didn't swallow them, it was the gsds and probably on account of my prior conditioning of them :-D. Cat would torture animals on the doorstep from time to time, it was often easier sending a gsd to end the suffering versus a jrt who had a slightly different relationship with the cat.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Once my cat is done playing around with it, she drops it for the bouv which in the end is better. At least she will drop it on command. Having moved to the country, I can't believe how bold they can be. First week here and I open the front door and there is one sitting on the front porch looking at me like its waiting for me to let him in. Didn't think of running until I started stomping my foot.

T


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Years and years and years ago, I used to board my horse in winter on a farm close by the sea, it was infested by rats. The rats were h-u-g-e, they'd run about the rafters in the barn after dark, I used to hate if I was late, sliding back the barn door then having to grope around on the wall feeling for the light switch. There was always one sitting on a ledge close by the light switch, and they NEVER ran,,, you really had to swear at the fukkers.

The farmer had a couple of antisocial Elkhounds who were pretty sharp on the job, but not anything as sharp as the wee terriers though :smile:.


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## Karen M Wood (Jun 23, 2012)

When i was a teenager my father rescued a Screech owl chick that had been injured in a storm. She was missing one eye and several toes. So she would never hunt as a wild owl. We also had a Manx cat, and a pekingese who was a fine little hunting dog.
Well the cat would catch mice live and bring them into the house. And wait until we were all assembled before releasing the mouse. Then the Peke would catch it and kill it and finally the owl would "kill" it again and then eat it. But she was much less interested in the mouse if the peke had not worked it over first. Tenderized it i guess.
I also have American bulldogs now that i have hunting squirrels in my back yard because the "tree rats" are destroying my fruit! They right now are taking one bite out of my avacados and then dropping them on the ground. The avacados are not ready for another month. The oranges are catching hell and they steal my guavas too! So between the BB gun and the dogs, we have a fine hunting system. And if i let them the dogs would eat the squirrels. But mostly i toss them over the fence. 
My Plott/Am Bull would swallow mice whole if she caught them on the run. Guess that is the real BARF diet?


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Broke down with this wee dog tonight . I belted the little focker hard with a leather lead doubled over (my gsd's lead), after some challenging behaviour and ignoring me, then stood back to see what he would do. He growled and snarled at me for a few seconds (i asked him to leave a toy), then he stood back like the penny had just dropped.

He's humping the fuk out my hubby on the sofa and hubby won't do as I ask when he does that !!!

My gsd hates him, the cat is taking delight I believe in terrorising him,,,, I really like him but am thinking I may have to rehome him.

It really fuks me off folks buy a cute puppy, teach it fuk all, spoil it and effectively turn it into a monster with little chance of a good home by time they are a year old.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

maggie fraser said:


> It really fuks me off folks buy a cute puppy, teach it fuk all, spoil it and effectively turn it into a monster with little chance of a good home by time they are a year old.


I did not read the whole post, but, I totally agree with this statement. I am sorry you are going through hell with a dog Maggie. That is no fun for anyone to have to do.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

maggie fraser said:


> Broke down with this wee dog tonight . I belted the little focker hard with a leather lead doubled over (my gsd's lead), after some challenging behaviour and ignoring me, then stood back to see what he would do. He growled and snarled at me for a few seconds (i asked him to leave a toy), then he stood back like the penny had just dropped.
> 
> He's humping the fuk out my hubby on the sofa and hubby won't do as I ask when he does that !!!
> 
> ...


I have not kept up with this thread Maggie but are you saying it was mostly all his upbringing? A lot of those terriers are pretty arrogant for the most part from my interaction with them some lines and breeds different of course  I know the difficultys in retraining crazy ass dogs worse then training up a pup for sure.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Maggie 
if you're losing patience and smacking him, it's time to get rid of the dog or you might just make it that much more hopeless for the next victim
- it's doubtful you will suddenly decide to switch positions and grow an infinite amount of patience and time to work on this
...and if the other family members aren't cooperating when they really need to for a dog with big time problems, all the more reason

can't fix em all and don't feel a bit of guilt ... bad match, bad dog, in the wrong place, at the wrong time, etc etc

just try to find someone who is dog savvy that doesn't have any other dogs to take care of ... that might be the best way to spend your time on that dude imo
...at least you are honest and they will get a complete picture and know what they are getting into ... lots of other people would not give a "full disclosure" ](*,)


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

maggie fraser said:


> Broke down with this wee dog tonight . I belted the little focker hard with a leather lead doubled over (my gsd's lead), after some challenging behaviour and ignoring me, then stood back to see what he would do. He growled and snarled at me for a few seconds (i asked him to leave a toy), then he stood back like the penny had just dropped.
> 
> He's humping the fuk out my hubby on the sofa and hubby won't do as I ask when he does that !!!
> 
> ...


 
Don't give up....yet. Change your methods and beat him at his own game. Find some things you WANT him to do and teach them, then demand them. Train it motivationally and use compulsion for disobedience to these tasks ONCE THEY ARE LEARNED. Use a tug and dont be scared. He obviously likes to bite toys, so use that to your advantage. Don't let him have toys on his terms, but let him have them a lot on your terms. one at a time, on leash, with another in your hands.

If you teach him a recall, and a place command (cant move once you put him there, raised surface like a blanket or bed) you'll have most of his issues masked and make him easier to live with. Set a crate up in the garage where you can't hear him throw a fit. Leave him there when emotions start to get into the way of training. Make it fun to go into his crate. Have a goal of a loose house dog, plan steps to get there as soon as you can. Make it fun in the process.

He would probably make a decent narcotics dog, unless I have missed something (ran around 55 miin at the beach before he settled, comfortable enough with people on the first day he put his mouth on you, likes toys).

This is what dogs with (some) drive do. What you do shapes how he does what he does, for you to allow him to do what he wants to do....If he likes a fight, yelling at him for humping will make him hump more....

Easy stuff.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Nicole Stark said:


> It just gets better and better. Anyone else have a delicious rat morsel that they want to share here? :evil:


Yes Nicole...

Years ago, I bought a feeder rat for my snake, got her home, went to dump her in and she crawled up my arm and curled up on my shoulder.....needless to say she lived with me until I put her down due to a tumor and old age. 

Mitzi was a sweet little thing!!:grin::grin:

K...back to nasty little earth dogs now......


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

"K...back to nasty little earth dogs now......" 
I'm heart broken now. :sad: ;-)


That's a tough call Maggie. You know I understand what your going through but someone else's created problems can really stink, in particular if it's disrupting all the other critters in the house. Hubby included of course.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Thanks All !

Rick, I wouldn't say I'm losing patience and belting him per se, I did break last night through arguing with hubby about the humping on the sofa . The dog continues to crank up and of course he is getting aggressive with it, I've told hubby not to push him off or manhandle him when he does that as the wee dog just comes back harder. He is to quietly put him in the crate when he does that but hubby seemed to think he knew better :-D, that at least was up until last night. Plus arguing about the wee dog, I actually like him, he is a challenge for me for sure, but it is hubby who is determined he will stay .

I don't think there was any real harm done as such, it just kinda confirmed to me what I am dealing with, I gave him a hard strike whilst he was unrestrained, he thought hard about it then did the right thing. I have no real plans of repeating that.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> Don't give up....yet. Change your methods and beat him at his own game. Find some things you WANT him to do and teach them, then demand them. Train it motivationally and use compulsion for disobedience to these tasks ONCE THEY ARE LEARNED. Use a tug and dont be scared. He obviously likes to bite toys, so use that to your advantage. Don't let him have toys on his terms, but let him have them a lot on your terms. one at a time, on leash, with another in your hands.
> 
> If you teach him a recall, and a place command (cant move once you put him there, raised surface like a blanket or bed) you'll have most of his issues masked and make him easier to live with. Set a crate up in the garage where you can't hear him throw a fit. Leave him there when emotions start to get into the way of training. Make it fun to go into his crate. Have a goal of a loose house dog, plan steps to get there as soon as you can. Make it fun in the process.
> 
> ...


I haven't given up,, yet. I have been considering changing my method to that you have described.. train motivationally and compulsion for non compliance. Truth is, in many regards we have come a long way in the short time he has been here. I have pretty much done and achieved all you have suggested above, I do play tug with him now, and have been getting an out (leave) pretty much everytime, and he is enjoying the game. Been teaching him a retrieve too with the tug and his latex ball , he is so uber fast he makes me laugh so hard. In the home he is very trainable, so much so when I kick the other dog and cat out, he is brilliant to have around loose in the house.

There will be no quick way with this wee dog and I suppose that is why I am hesitant to overly use compulsion, I either commit to the long haul or I rehome him.

Don't think I mentioned our second group training session... I heard the word 'Amazing' several times that night,, and it was directed at us! Bloody idiots though (trainers), they had me break his threshold, he worked for me for pretty much 45 mins straight before he blew. I was annoyed with myself and the trainers, but so delighted and amazed with the wee dog. :-D


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> "K...back to nasty little earth dogs now......"
> I'm heart broken now. :sad: ;-)
> 
> 
> That's a tough call Maggie. You know I understand what your going through but someone else's created problems can really stink, in particular if it's disrupting all the other critters in the house. Hubby included of course.


My main issue really, is keeping him safe from my gsd Luc. Luc is both tolerant and accepting of him whilst out walking, but is another matter completely within the home. I believe he will tolerate him in time, but I will require to have very good voice control on the wee chap,,, it doesn't help if both dogs enjoy to have the odd scrap :wink:.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

brad robert said:


> I have not kept up with this thread Maggie but are you saying it was mostly all his upbringing? A lot of those terriers are pretty arrogant for the most part from my interaction with them some lines and breeds different of course  I know the difficultys in retraining crazy ass dogs worse then training up a pup for sure.


He does have issues, I think despite his tiny size he has managed to intimidate, I think maybe he has also had some rough handling and likes to fight back. I don't think he has been educated or raised well at all, but a lot of what I am dealing with I think is largely a full on, bolshy, and reactive :-D young terrier.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

You got this!!! Don't let the little feller down!!

I have the same threshold issue, with myself. If it's going well, it's so easy to do ONE MORE repetition.


Good luck!


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> You got this!!! Don't let the little feller down!!
> 
> I have the same threshold issue, with myself. If it's going well, it's so easy to do ONE MORE repetition.
> 
> ...


Thanks Dave , no doubt I'll be back on this thread shortly pulling my hair out again.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Bob Scott said:


> "K...back to nasty little earth dogs now......"
> I'm heart broken now. :sad: ;-)


I meant that as an endearment....:grin: 
Nothing better than a 12 pounder who thinks he's a 70 pounder. Gotta admire the grit these dogs have.....


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Maggie,

My Mum and I selected a Jack Russell pup from the Cheshire Hunt Kennels in UK and when we took him back to show the breeder he said "I sold the wrong one". I selected the one who pushed his way to me.

Nick would face any dog, and did. He challenged two Basset Hounds on one of our visits to GB. Dad said "don't let him off the lead" but we did!! Toni kicked him down the slope until the owner of the Bassetts could rescue his dogs and leave. Nick came chasing up the slope breathing "murder" but Toni caught him front on.

He once was out with us and a Great Dane appeared in front of us - the Great Dane shivered on all four legs and Nick enjoyed the surrender!

He loved people but was addicted to cats and dogs, My brother sometimes left his Labrador with us and Nick the JRT obeyed him like nothing else on earth.

It just shows you that there is a "Higher Ruling" for these dogs - God knows who can attain it, but it is possible.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i will repeat and elaborate because i took her post as it was written....it sure seemed like a "i lost it and let loose on him to vent" reaction. and i still feel if that gets repeated it"s time to move on. only maggie knows how much was malice and how much was frustration in her mind, or what the intent was ....the dog will not really look at it the same way ... to the dog (if it has some backbone) it will become a trigger 

next, what Dave said and suggested is GREAT ,,,IF... you train and THINK operantly.....easy to see the wisdom after the fact in writing, but until you can "think" it when things happen, OC aint gonna "happen", and ....
***** i rarely see anyone on here that has completely changed their training philosophy based on what they "learned" on the WDF //lol//

the problem with gritty little dogs is we still think we can manhandle them because of the size difference 
i doubt maggie would have whaled on her dog the same way if it was a 90lb DS or a 120lb Cane CORSO
...It's just human nature to be more "physical", when correcting smaller dogs, and when patience is lost, that just takes you MANY steps backwards, that you now have to make up before progress can start again, and in the meantime you are starting to (classically) condition the dog to fight

i still say you can"t correct a dog into "obedient behaviors" (and not even sure what that means, btw) .....
- you can "show" (as in luring, yielding to leash pressure, etc) a correct OB behavior, and then give the dog a chance to make the correct decision to comply or not, but it is WAY more difficult to "show" acceptable behaviors that are aggression based. i also think you have to admit to yourself that when the dog has gone over the top, it is too late to deal with what caused it that particular time....
- the whole goal behind desensitizing and counterconditioning is to PREVENT, not correct....and slowly remove the triggers, raise thresholds or however you want to define it

time will tell but put your energy where it will do the most good for the DOG if you really care about it


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

_the problem with gritty little dogs is we still think we can manhandle them because of the size difference _

Rick, speak for yourself - I have more respect for ankle biters _:grin:_


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i hear you gillian....
i worked for months with a black shiba .... about 25 pounds of attitude stuffed into that body with no room for anything else.
owners, both "intelligent" MD"s .... 
- hubby was DEATHLY afraid of it and his palms sweated when it was in the same room, and had never petted it in three years
- wife (OBGYN) could only see the sweet mini-husky looks 

they had NEVER had a problem, til they came to me asking how they could get it to come when called 
- of course it had never been brushed (after it bit a wooden hairbrush in half)
- and never been dried off with a towel (lay a washcloth on its head and the face turned into a tasmanian devil grin)
- and they never had a food issue because they filled the food bowl in another room before letting the dog go in and eat after they closed the door behind it

amazes me the "love" some people can have for their dogs ](*,)](*,)](*,)

they also had "boarded" it for three months it with a locally famous police dog trainer and it came back stronger than ever...the guy said it was aggressive because it was a black (much rarer coat color) shiba //lol//


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

rick smith said:


> i will repeat and elaborate because i took her post as it was written....it sure seemed like a "i lost it and let loose on him to vent" reaction. and i still feel if that gets repeated it"s time to move on. only maggie knows how much was malice and how much was frustration in her mind, or what the intent was ....the dog will not really look at it the same way ... to the dog (if it has some backbone) it will become a trigger
> 
> next, what Dave said and suggested is GREAT ,,,IF... you train and THINK operantly.....easy to see the wisdom after the fact in writing, but until you can "think" it when things happen, OC aint gonna "happen", and ....
> ***** i rarely see anyone on here that has completely changed their training philosophy based on what they "learned" on the WDF //lol//
> ...


No worries Rick, pretty sure I knew where you were coming from and did agree with you. As for physically correcting the smaller dog v the bigger ones, I used this very same analogy last night hence my upset at hubby. The situation arose after I picked him up and put him outside directly after the humping scenario to cool off, went to fetch him in and there he was, shredding the shit out of my gsd's toy (one of the two he has left). I asked for a 'leave'.... no chance, so I chose to try and salvage the toy. Good job I didn't find my self a stick!

As for whaling in on a bigger dog, I've done that before ONCE, not a dissimilar scenario only that time I launched myself at my gsd when he was around six months old. We went through the air and hit the deck eyeball to eyeball, it was at that moment I realised it was not a smart thing to do. I was very lucky. That of course set me back, but we got over it.

No-one is perfect, first time it has happened and like I say, have no plans on repeating it. He's an aggressive and demanding little git, I know not to look for a fight with him, it's not the way I want to go forward with him. I was disappointed with myself.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

maggie fraser said:


> The situation arose after I picked him up and put him outside directly after the humping scenario to cool off, went to fetch him in and there he was, shredding the shit out of my gsd's toy (one of the two he has left). I asked for a 'leave'.... no chance, so I chose to try and salvage the toy. Good job I didn't find my self a stick!


Management error. 

Don't ask me how I know this. :lol:

He was not doing anything he had been trained not to do, right?

And he had no reliable "leave" command.

He and the toy shouldn't have been together. 

Out-thinking these guys and managing them while you're training them is crucial. JMO!


_"i also think you have to admit to yourself that when the dog has gone over the top, it is too late to deal with what caused it that particular time....
- the whole goal behind desensitizing and counterconditioning is to PREVENT, not correct....and slowly remove the triggers, raise thresholds or however you want to define it"_

"Prevent" ..... another good word for what I meant by "manage."


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Yeah Gillian, I know what they can be like, I've had three. Two dogs from pups, and a bitch I had inherited from my brother's family at a year old. The bitch was quite similar in ways to this wee guy, she had been teased as a pup and her favourite game was to go get a toy and 'invite' someone (the other dogs), to come get it!


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Rick,

I honestly wonder why people who buy small dogs never try to research into the history of these dogs.

I am now sorely tried by various neighbours, friends, etc, who have bought an "oh so sweet" tiny dog that taxes them.

Nuff said!!


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Management error.
> 
> He was not doing anything he had been trained not to do, right?
> 
> ...


Yes management error, I didn't know how the hell it came to be there and it was dark when I put him out. I'm taking the blame here Connie, I'm pretty meticulous about my management, I have to be...


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

maggie fraser said:


> Yeah Gillian, I know what they can be like, I've had three. Two dogs from pups, and a bitch I had inherited from my brother's family at a year old. The bitch was quite similar in ways to this wee guy, she had been teased as a pup and her favourite game was to go get a toy and 'invite' someone (the other dogs), to come get it!


So what's the problem?


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> So what's the problem?


I had forgotten the degree of my gsd's resource guarding issues and possessiveness, and how trigger driven he is, plus his contempt of pushy little dogs (a few of which have attacked him over the years). Not to mention my cat who takes delight in sleeping in any spots he may have been laying in, but particularly his bed or his cage. She pulls a good stunt though when she just suddenly appears behind him when he is eating his food.

Senility I think they call it.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

So, what about going back to the beginning? As someone else suggested, NILIF (nothing in life is free). Sometimes it seems to suck for the dog if they don't get it right away. But he should be young enough to pick up quickly, as they are not stupid, just stubborn.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Carol, I knew you were joking. I love the little bassids also. I've had a few. Probably will again. 
Convince a terrier it's having fun and the world is yours. Manhandle one and you'll think you grabbed hold of a running chain saw and nowhere to put it down. 8-[ Trust me! :lol:


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Bob Scott said:


> Carol, I knew you were joking. I love the little bassids also. I've had a few. Probably will again.
> Convince a terrier it's having fun and the world is yours. Manhandle one and you'll think you grabbed hold of a running chain saw and nowhere to put it down. 8-[ Trust me! :lol:


Yes....I had to board a JRT here about a year ago, and she was a little monster too. Not aggressive really (unless someone knocked on the door) but she was full of piss and vinegar for sure. 

Everyday the four wheeler came out and I would run her half mile down to the south trees and then we spent about an hour "looking" for whatever. She caught a couple moles, a small jackrabbit and a grouse. 
For the first two weeks she was crate, potty, behave and you can stay out, misbehave and you can go to your crate. 
Once the exercise kicked in, she did not stay in her crate at all, even when I was not home. 

I will say that she was a challenge because her "opposition reflex" was high. She was like telling a two year old not to touch something......just makes them want it more!!!

When Sheila and Russ came to pick her up, they could not wrap their head around the fact that she was sleeping in her dog bed and actually seemed a little less spazoid. 

So now, they take her and let her run and "hunt" and she is a much better pet.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

"So now, they take her and let her run and "hunt" and she is a much better pet"

100% agree!!! My last terrier (JRT) would climb the rose trellis to get on the garage when he saw squirrels up there. To get off he just jumped. Same with my son's tree house. The only way up was boards nailed into the tree. No problem for the little bassid. The only way down (for him) was through the window. :-o He did that 2-3-4 times a day when the fuzzy tailed rats were active. Got to where I kept a pile of mulch in his landing area although he didn't seem to mind bouncing off the ground. Mini Mals with no environmental issues!
Gotta love em!


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Bob I can't stop laughing at how you describe these wee guys :grin:, the first week I had this wee guy at the vet I took him for a walk and the pathway went right by the rail station. We were over a fence and not more than a foot or so back from the track when a train rumbled in, lots of big noise and vibration, and the wee guy only lifted his head once he had finished sniffing his plant . No environmental issues _whatsoever !_

Same with the jumping lark, they don't jump like other dogs in a downward motion, they jump upwards in the air to come down :lol:. I do not believe there is a breed which is as much fearless fun than these wee guys .


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

maggie fraser said:


> Bob I can't stop laughing at how you describe these wee guys :grin:, the first week I had this wee guy at the vet I took him for a walk and the pathway went right by the rail station. We were over a fence and not more than a foot or so back from the track when a train rumbled in, lots of big noise and vibration, and the wee guy only lifted his head once he had finished sniffing his plant . No environmental issues _whatsoever !_
> 
> Same with the jumping lark, they don't jump like other dogs in a downward motion, they jump upwards in the air to come down :lol:. I do not believe there is a breed which is as much fearless fun than these wee guys .


Yes, the ones I know are on springs, and no, they have no fear ...... and also no, shall we say, "regard for personal 
safety." :lol:

Crazy lil bassids is very apt. JMO!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Pete, the little 14 lb JRT I had could jump on top a 6ft stone wall from a sitting position. When he wanted my attention he would jump straight up in front of me and bark directly in my face. I'm 6'2". 
We had to hide all the flashlights when the gkids came over because they had him chasing the light up the living room wall all the way to the cealing. I have to admit I was the one that showed them how to do it........then Gam caught us 8-[8-[. 
Pete died at 15-16 yrs old. Blind in one eye. Gimpy in the back leg and a bad back to boot. He was a great little working earth dog in his day and he was nucking futs to the end!


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

How tragic is this story.....

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/nov/21/family-baby-boy-killed-by-dog

I do not know how many people over here seem to think a young baby and a Jack Russell is a good mix ](*,)


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

So sad! Absolutely NOT a good mix with a young baby.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Well, thought I'd update this thread,, been putting it off!

I rehomed the wee guy just before Xmas. Whilst he had been making great progress, and particularly so with me, hubby and I were not on the same page as to his training. I decided the risk to my cat was too great whilst I couldn't rely on hubby, in addition to my gsd not really giving an inch in the home.

The good news is I think I found him a good home,, semi retired (olympic ) martial arts coach who lives alone, he takes him on the bus and to the pub and most everywhere he goes. He also has a wee Shitzu bitch neighbour whom he runs around the garden with everyday in addition to good regular walking.

The bad news is I fell in love with the wee guy and felt I had really connected with him, I'm pretty much over the urge to go and snatch him back now,, well almost..


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

I know this is a long shot but is this dog a rescue from Wales called Lucky? I didn't read the whole thread so I apologise if the information is in there.


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## Jeffrey Eggenberger (Jan 3, 2013)

My Rescue shelter Jack Rat Terrier mix is just 5 months now, full of fight and smart as a whip! I am so glad that she ended up with me, I would hate to think what some "normal" family would have had on their hands!!! hehe. Love her and wouldn't have her any other way! Lotza drive in this gal. I only wish it would warm up as our walk/training is limited to inside the house pretty much, she can't take much less than 32F on her puppy feet.

Had started her with clicker training, have dropped the clicker and using Michael Ellis methods now. She loves lightly cooked cheeze hotdog bits, and her new kryptonite is ginger snap cookies of all things....she will literarly die for them...


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

maggie fraser said:


> Well, thought I'd update this thread,, been putting it off!
> 
> I rehomed the wee guy just before Xmas. Whilst he had been making great progress, and particularly so with me, hubby and I were not on the same page as to his training. I decided the risk to my cat was too great whilst I couldn't rely on hubby, in addition to my gsd not really giving an inch in the home.
> 
> ...




You done good Maggie! If there was a conflict in training then it had to be. 
Be proud that he made good progress while you had him.;-)


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> You done good Maggie! If there was a conflict in training then it had to be.
> Be proud that he made good progress while you had him.;-)


Cheers Bob, I felt it was the only fair thing to do at that time, personally I wish he was still here, he was such a character.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> You done good Maggie! If there was a conflict in training then it had to be.
> Be proud that he made good progress while you had him.;-)


A very fair statement Bob. Not everything in life goes the way we want or expect it to. That's the kind of stuff that builds character :twisted: LOL. 

Maggie, a lot of people would have needlessly pushed through that situation not ever seeing the compromises being made, which often isn't in the best interests for the parties involved. You had a tough decision before you and did the right thing resulting in a win/win situation for all parties involved.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

"That's the kind of stuff that builds character :twisted: LOL."


I'm thinking that Maggie is as much a "character" that most could handle.  $-# :-$ :grin:;-)


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> "That's the kind of stuff that builds character :twisted: LOL."
> 
> 
> I'm thinking that Maggie is as much a "character" that most could handle.  $-# :-$ :grin:;-)


Yeah, I think it takes one to know one my feathered friend. I got a little too much motor in me too. With the right driver it doesn't seem to matter much. :lol:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

:twisted::twisted::twisted::twisted: :lol:;-)


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

maggie fraser said:


> How tragic is this story.....
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/nov/21/family-baby-boy-killed-by-dog
> 
> I do not know how many people over here seem to think a young baby and a Jack Russell is a good mix ](*,)


My neighbours JRT ripped a hole in their little girls face after repeated warnings from me that he was from working lines and needed a job. It was very sad because the little girl loved him (too much)


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

maggie fraser said:


> Well, thought I'd update this thread,, been putting it off!
> 
> I rehomed the wee guy just before Xmas. Whilst he had been making great progress, and particularly so with me, hubby and I were not on the same page as to his training. I decided the risk to my cat was too great whilst I couldn't rely on hubby, in addition to my gsd not really giving an inch in the home.
> 
> ...


Some dogs just don't fit in some places. Doesn't make them bad, that is just how life is. Sounds like a very rational and good decision.

Hope you get to see him now and again!


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Matt Vandart said:


> My neighbours JRT ripped a hole in their little girls face after repeated warnings from me that he was from working lines and needed a job. It was very sad because the little girl loved him (too much)


 
Jrt's seem to have gotten really quite popular in parts round here, particularly with folks who have young children/infants  . 

I had stopped by a local store a couple of weeks ago where a jrt was tethered to the railings outside. There were two or three young school lads there expressing an interest in the dog when his owner came out. They asked him, " hey mister does he bite"? to which the guy replied "of course he bites, he's a Jack Russell"! Made me smile .


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> Some dogs just don't fit in some places. Doesn't make them bad, that is just how life is. Sounds like a very rational and good decision.
> 
> Hope you get to see him now and again!


This was not a bad dog, just uber demanding under the circumstances, and of course it was stimulating having him around. I threw my rattle out the pram, I'm certain I would have made him fit but I required assistance to do that, ie. sticking to the training plan! 

Hubby was very upset at him going (I told him after the event), he spent a few days tracking down where the dog went, when he found him, his new owner was unprepared to give him back.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> "That's the kind of stuff that builds character :twisted: LOL."
> 
> 
> I'm thinking that Maggie is as much a "character" that most could handle.  $-# :-$ :grin:;-)


Hey Bob, many folks I've come across who like the Jack Russell's are good crack! Not like your bolshy, uptight herder owners who take themselves so seriously :grin:.

Kind of sort of kiddin I think


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

maggie fraser said:


> Hey Bob, many folks I've come across who like the Jack Russell's are good crack! Not like your bolshy, uptight herder owners who take themselves so seriously :grin:.
> 
> Kind of sort of kiddin I think


:lol::lol::lol::lol: Maggie I did natural earth work with my terriers for a number of yrs. did the den trial sports and raced them also. Even got to where I was judging the races and den trials. One of my hunting partners was a working terrier judge so I dug to probably 100+ different dogs over the span I hunted. I couldn't count how many I've seen and met at trials. I've even hunted with more then a coupe of Brits who came over to judge our working dog shows. To a man and woman they were standup folks! ;-)


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

We had one male Jack Russell from the reputable Cheshire Hunt Kennels in England. Nick was an extremely well bred pup - I picked him out for my Dad who was despairing over our male Cocker Spaniel, having in younger years bred Greyhounds and owned Airedales. When we took him back to show the breeder, he said "I should have kept him". He put the fear of god into many a dog 3 X his size but when my brother's Labrador male came to stay, he submitted to him, as he had before submitted to our older Cocker Spaniel (however the Cocker became "unworthy" when the Labrador was with us). (That says to me a lot about a dog's nature).

In my opinion, Jack Russell Terriers were never meant to be pups in a family with young children.

It was very "unfortunate" that Christne Stückelberger, a famous dressage rider, kept JRs. Now, the horsy brigade wanted to follow suit here in Switzerland. Some of those I saw here in Switzerland were lousy copies of the JRT. One stamp of the foot would have sent them scattering.

Thereafter the JRT's became part of the FCI - who knows how good this was. The old JRT breeders used them to work - the FCI praised them as "small dog for the family" maybe.

Nick didn't work with the hounds - he loved people but was ready to fight anything on four legs. 

Tina, JRT, came at 5 weeks (far too soon) to Mum and Dad and was not bred from serious breeders. She was anti-social but good to train, so much so that when Dad brought her to us in Switzerland, she lay next to our cat on the couch although having chased them with Nick in England.

I feel "we" have done the JRTs an injustice. In the right homes (speak hunting kennels) they are invaluable.

In England they used to convey them in vans during the hunt. This so that they could let them out in front of the fox hole. If not, the "bassids as Bob calls them" would go about their own hunts.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> Some dogs just don't fit in some places. Doesn't make them bad, that is just how life is.



I remember my daughter's first Border Terrier. (Well, I remember him very well, because he's still alive in his upper teens and finally becoming calm.)

I remember very clearly when he was a young dog, my daughter crying every day, saying "this is not a normal dog!" 

This is not a crying woman, not a woman unfamiliar with drivey dogs, and not one who lets dogs rule the place.

It took a looooong time to figure out how JRTs and Borders tick. And it takes some human brain-work, because as Bob says, they are a dream once you know how to make them think everything was their idea and just what they wanted to do anyway. (OK, maybe he doesn't say "a dream.")

No crying when the next one came along. :lol:




Here he is at 16, possibly his first not-a-blur photo: 
http://s82.beta.photobucket.com/user/connies419/media/IMG_58.jpg.html


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## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

Gillian Schuler said:


> We had one male Jack Russell from the reputable Cheshire Hunt Kennels in England. Nick was an extremely well bred pup - I picked him out for my Dad who was despairing over our male Cocker Spaniel, having in younger years bred Greyhounds and owned Airedales. When we took him back to show the breeder, he said "I should have kept him". He put the fear of god into many a dog 3 X his size but when my brother's Labrador male came to stay, he submitted to him, as he had before submitted to our older Cocker Spaniel (however the Cocker became "unworthy" when the Labrador was with us). (That says to me a lot about a dog's nature).
> 
> In my opinion, Jack Russell Terriers were never meant to be pups in a family with young children.
> 
> ...


When we were hunting in Namibia (southern Africa), a JRT was the standard hunting dog that was used to track wounded game.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I have never heard that the JRT was used to search out wounded game and would be extremely interested in hearing more about it.

Here the Bavarian Schweisshund is used.

I knew someone in the next village who had one of the best Bavarian Schweisshunde. Am searcxhing...


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> :lol::lol::lol::lol: Maggie I did natural earth work with my terriers for a number of yrs. did the den trial sports and raced them also. Even got to where I was judging the races and den trials. One of my hunting partners was a working terrier judge so I dug to probably 100+ different dogs over the span I hunted. I couldn't count how many I've seen and met at trials. I've even hunted with more then a coupe of Brits who came over to judge our working dog shows. To a man and woman they were standup folks! ;-)


Bob, do many of the small terriers shred and hole every single pair of jeans you possess below the knee, or is it peculiar to Jack Russell's?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

maggie fraser said:


> Bob, do many of the small terriers shred and hole every single pair of jeans you possess below the knee, or is it peculiar to Jack Russell's?



:lol: That's a trait I admire in most any dog. :lol:
Honestly I always expected and received the same house manners from any terrier I've owned just as much as any other dog I've owned. All my terriers were house dogs. Even the workers. I've had a couple of Kerrys, a couple of Borders, a Norwich, a White Bull Terrier, a Pit, a JRT and a few terrier cross breds. My first Kerry was a Nationally ranked competion dog in AKC OB. That's all breed competition. He never got a failing score in the OB ring and was most often in the mid 90s. My brother's Kerry was High In Trial the first time ever in the OB ring.
I've been around literally hundreds of JRTs. It didn't take more then a few mins observation to know which ones ruled the house. Clueless is pretty much tattooed on some folks forehead. :lol:
One thing I've always done was to play tug with all of them. Much of this was back when most "obedience" trainers were still saying that was taboo with a dog cause "It's gonna make em mean". I never once saw that simply because the tug was always mine, not the dogs.
My terriers always ran in a pack, inside or outside the house. I never had a serious squabble with any but the JRT who didn't like when my first GSD came to the house. He was a bit daft in temperament though. Way beyond average JRT. :lol: He'd constantly try and bully the GSD till the GSD hit about 20 mo old. Go figure! After that he was the only one of my many dogs that wasn't out alone with another dog. Didn't matter how big they "thought" they were. He firmly believed he could piss higher further and longer then any dog on the on the planet. I couldn't tell you how many times he got his head pissed on simply because he'd try to cover another dog's pee spot before the other dog got finished. ](*,) :roll:
Hopefully I'm still around for another terrier. More then likely it will be a Border. If not it will be a JRT.
To further what Connie said, if they think they are having fun the world is yours with the crazy little bassids!


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> "So now, they take her and let her run and "hunt" and she is a much better pet"
> 
> 100% agree!!! My last terrier (JRT) would climb the rose trellis to get on the garage when he saw squirrels up there. To get off he just jumped. Same with my son's tree house. The only way up was boards nailed into the tree. No problem for the little bassid. The only way down (for him) was through the window. :-o He did that 2-3-4 times a day when the fuzzy tailed rats were active. Got to where I kept a pile of mulch in his landing area although he didn't seem to mind bouncing off the ground. Mini Mals with no environmental issues!
> Gotta love em!


That reminds me of something. Nick, our JRT would climb up the ladder to the roost where Dad's Fantail Pigeons rested. It was about 2-3 metres high. No problem for Sir Nick. And we try to teach other breeds to climb ladders, i.e. for SAR, etc.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Did he get any pigeons for his efforts? :lol:
Our JRT Pete used to climb the rose trellis to go after squirrels on the garage roof. He just jumped off the roof to get down. Same thing with my son's tree house. Pete would climb the boards that were nailed in the tree. He couldn't get back down that way so out the tree house window he would go. I used to keep a pile of mulch on the ground in his landing spot. 
He also dove in a lake going after ducks. He came out with a big bass plug stuck in his side. He reached around and grabbed it in his mouth and yanked it out. YEP! Now it was stuck in his lip.](*,)
I borrowed a pair of wire cutters a fisherman had in his tackle box. I pushed the barb the rest of the way through his lip, cut the barb off and pulled out the shank. 
When I put him down he squealed like a little weasel and ran for the lake again. I called him off and tossed him in the car.
When Pete passed away he was blind in one eye, had a bad back and walked with a limp in his back leg but he never showed any discomfort or desire to slow down. He truly enjoyed life on his terms. Crazy little bassid!


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