# rattlesnake vaccine



## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

My regular vet is now offering rattlesnake vaccinations. They are given in a series of two, & are only $20.0 a pop. So far, everything I have read points towards this being a good thing. Dogs are not immune from the venom, you still need to get them to a vet with anti-venom right away, but supposedly they are not as badly effected from the venom, & the recovery time is much faster. The only vaccination side-effects I have found is that there can be swelling, & it can be to the point where fluid needs to be drained off. There are just tons of rattlers around both where I live & where I hike. I saw one sunning on a dirt road yesterday. I was wondering if anyone has any information or experience with this they wouldn't mind sharing.
Thanks,
Sue


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> My regular vet is now offering rattlesnake vaccinations. They are given in a series of two, & are only $20.0 a pop. So far, everything I have read points towards this being a good thing. Dogs are not immune from the venom, you still need to get them to a vet with anti-venom right away, but supposedly they are not as badly effected from the venom, & the recovery time is much faster. The only vaccination side-effects I have found is that there can be swelling, & it can be to the point where fluid needs to be drained off. There are just tons of rattlers around both where I live & where I hike. I saw one sunning on a dirt road yesterday. I was wondering if anyone has any information or experience with this they wouldn't mind sharing.
> Thanks,
> Sue


U.C.L.A. (or maybe U.C. Davis?) doesn't recommend them. Let me find that thing I read.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

QUOTE:

Canine Rattlesnake Vaccine

The canine rattlesnake vaccine comprises venom components from Crotalus atrox (western diamondback). Although a rattlesnake vaccine may be potentially useful for dogs that frequently encounter rattlesnakes, currently we are unable to recommend this vaccine because of insufficient information regarding the efficacy of the vaccine in dogs. Dogs develop neutralizing antibody titers to C. atrox venom, and may also develop antibody titers to components of other rattlesnake venoms, but research in this area is ongoing. Owners of vaccinated dogs must still seek veterinary care immediately in the event of a bite, because 1) the type of snake is often unknown; 2) antibody titers may be overwhelmed in the face of severe envenomation, and 3) an individual dog may lack sufficient protection depending on its response to the vaccine and the time elapsed since vaccination. According to the manufacturer, to date, rare vaccinated dogs have died following a bite when there were substantial delays (12-24 hours) in seeking treatment. Recommendations for booster vaccination are still under development, but it appears that adequate titers do not persist beyond one year after vaccination. Adverse reactions appear to be low and consistent with those resulting from vaccination with other products available on the market. The product licence is currently conditional as efficacy and potency have not been fully demonstrated. Based on existing evidence, the UC Davis VMTH does not currently recommend routine vaccination of dogs for rattlesnake envenomation, and the vaccine is not stocked by our pharmacy. END

It's UC Davis at 
http://www.vmth.ucdavis.edu

Placerville Vet, a site I use a lot, agrees, but mentions which dogs SHOULD be vaccinated:
http://www.placervillevet.com/rattlesnake_vaccine.htm

And Marvista Vet, another site I use a lot, seems to think it's a good idea:
http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_rattlesnake_bites_in_californi.html


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Being a big herp freak when I was a kid, my concern would be that there are many different rattlesnakes. The anti-venom for a Diamond Back isn't the same for a Timber, etc. 
I would think this vaccination would be similar. You would need one for each species/variety of snake. 
Just guessin here!


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Bob, the vaccination provides protection against all the rattlers native to California except the Mojave.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I still think your point is valid, though Bob. Even if my pup was vaccinated, I think it may just of buy some time to get him to a vet with anti venim, & it would still be important to know which kind of rattler it was. You know, I was walking the pup on a dirt road Friday evening & came across a rattlesnake lying in the road. I just turned around, & walked back, but I couldn't say what kind of rattler it was. I think if Arkane had come up on the snake he would have gotten bit. I'm seriously thinking of going to one of those seminars where they teach dogs to be afraid of snakes. Also, is it true that if a dog is bitten while out hiking, it is much better to carry the dog back to the car so that the venim doesn't circulate as fast as it would if the dog were walking or running?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> I still think your point is valid, though Bob. Even if my pup was vaccinated, I think it may just of buy some time to get him to a vet with anti venim, & it would still be important to know which kind of rattler it was. You know, I was walking the pup on a dirt road Friday evening & came across a rattlesnake lying in the road. I just turned around, & walked back, but I couldn't say what kind of rattler it was. I think if Arkane had come up on the snake he would have gotten bit. I'm seriously thinking of going to one of those seminars where they teach dogs to be afraid of snakes. Also, is it true that if a dog is bitten while out hiking, it is much better to carry the dog back to the car so that the venim doesn't circulate as fast as it would if the dog were walking or running?


Yes. Snake-bite instructions almost always mention not allowing the victim to exert unnecessarily.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Yes! Definately carry the dog. Same if a person gets bit. Any physical activity just gets the venom moving faster through the system. 
The vaccine probably doesn't cover the Mojave because their venom works on the nervous system as well as the blood.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Thanks, Connie & bob. So I just went to "rattlesnakes of so calif", which has pretty good pictures. I think if my dog got bit, I might not be able to tell one kind of rattler from another, besides being panicked, some of the differences seem very subtle, & I doubt the snake is going to wait around for me to verify what it is! I do stick to the trails or roads & don't let my dog wander around in the brush, but still, I like to hike in some pretty remote areas! Oh well, no sense dwelling on it is there, I mean I can't put the pup in a bubble!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

On a positive ote, 30% of most snake bites are what's called a dry bite. That means no venom is injected. It's not quite know if this is because the snake is trying to conserve it's venom on a defensive bite, or the snake's venom system is haywire because it's in a panic situation.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Stun guns work well in emergency situations. The high voltage kills the proteins in the venom.

Yes, this dumbass has been bitten by a rattle snake. (lots, he was mine)

Really sucks when you have to try and do it to yourself. Kinda funny, really sad.


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Stun guns work well in emergency situations. The high voltage kills the proteins in the venom.
> 
> Yes, this dumbass has been bitten by a rattle snake. (lots, he was mine)
> 
> Really sucks when you have to try and do it to yourself. Kinda funny, really sad.




Read this about an hour ago and thought to myself, "Self, that will be the weirdest thing you will read today." Kind of takes a load off my mind. :lol:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Stun guns work well in emergency situations. The high voltage kills the proteins in the venom.
> 
> Yes, this dumbass has been bitten by a rattle snake. (lots, he was mine)
> 
> Really sucks when you have to try and do it to yourself. Kinda funny, really sad.


Wait.

It's early here.

You have been bitten lots? And you stun-gun YOURSELF? And the rattlesnake was your own snake?


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Stun guns work well in emergency situations. The high voltage kills the proteins in the venom.
> 
> Yes, this dumbass has been bitten by a rattle snake. (lots, he was mine)



Ohhhh this explains SO MUCH! :lol:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> On a positive ote, 30% of most snake bites are what's called a dry bite. That means no venom is injected. It's not quite know if this is because the snake is trying to conserve it's venom on a defensive bite, or the snake's venom system is haywire because it's in a panic situation.


Maybe they run out and haven't made more yet?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Bob Scott said:
> 
> 
> > On a positive ote, 30% of most snake bites are what's called a dry bite. That means no venom is injected. It's not quite know if this is because the snake is trying to conserve it's venom on a defensive bite, or the snake's venom system is haywire because it's in a panic situation.
> ...


Nope! Somehow it's been tested. I might add that 30% of bites ALSO have heavy doses. 30% have normal. Whatever normal means.
Ok! For all you anal folks out there. It's 33 1/3%. I'll never be mistaken for a statitician. :lol: :wink: I doubt it's spread that evenly.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Connie Sutherland said:
> 
> 
> > .....Nope! Somehow it's been tested. I might add that 30% of bites ALSO have heavy doses. 30% have normal. Whatever normal means.
> ...


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Bob Scott said:
> 
> 
> > Connie Sutherland said:
> ...


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Woody Taylor said:


> Connie Sutherland said:
> 
> 
> > Bob Scott said:
> ...


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## Sarah Hall (Apr 12, 2006)

From what I've heard, baby rattlers don't yet know how to conserve their venom AND they come out of their egg with full venom sacs. From a tv show I used to watch a LONG time ago, about 70% of rattler bites are from babies because all they have is one button on their rattler, rather than the multiple ones adults have (every time they shed they form a new rattle).  Wow, even MORE somewhat useless info I know. :lol:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Sarah Hall said:


> From what I've heard, baby rattlers don't yet know how to conserve their venom AND they come out of their egg with full venom sacs. From a tv show I used to watch a LONG time ago, about 70% of rattler bites are from babies because all they have is one button on their rattler, rather than the multiple ones adults have (every time they shed they form a new rattle).  Wow, even MORE somewhat useless info I know. :lol:


So then little ones are both more venomous AND don't have the warning equipment?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Sarah Hall said:
> 
> 
> > From what I've heard, baby rattlers don't yet know how to conserve their venom AND they come out of their egg with full venom sacs. From a tv show I used to watch a LONG time ago, about 70% of rattler bites are from babies because all they have is one button on their rattler, rather than the multiple ones adults have (every time they shed they form a new rattle).  Wow, even MORE somewhat useless info I know. :lol:
> ...


The little ones are more venomus in relation to their size. Still, the amount isn't as large. 
They are born with only one button, as Sarah commented, and grow a new one every time they shed. 
Counting their rattles is no indication of age. In an area with large amounts of prey, the snake may shed 2-3 time a year. Others may shed less then once a year in areas of short food supply. 
The rattles are also easily broken off. 
Counting the rattles is no indication


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Hey Bob, A long time ago I read that some rattlers are born without a rattle (anomaly). The article also stated that these were becoming more prevalent since people were trying to iradicate rattlers, leaving the rattle free rattlers to breed (or something to that effect). Do you know if that is true or not?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> Hey Bob, A long time ago I read that some rattlers are born without a rattle (anomaly). The article also stated that these were becoming more prevalent since people were trying to iradicate rattlers, leaving the rattle free rattlers to breed (or something to that effect). Do you know if that is true or not?


Although I've not heard that myself, it wouldn't suprise me in areas where there heavily hunted. Areas of the country where they have those rattlesnake roundups, for example. 
I've seen those on TV and have heard them make comments about not finding as many of the big ones now. 
I have no doubt there are statistics showing how hunting pressure creates certain evolutionary changes in attempts tp adapt. 
No different then trying to find the buck with the biggest rack. In certain areas of my state, all you can find is goat sized deer because of poaching.


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> rattlesnake roundups


Those are about the dumbest, most senseless events I can think of this side of buffalo hunts and passenger pigeons shoots of long ago (the word "stool pigeon" refers to pigeons that had their eyes sewn shut and were nailed to stools...their screams would draw in flocks). I hate those events. Had them in Oklahoma all the time. I feel the same way about that crap as I do about bear baiting. Gutless BS. 

JMO. :lol

Now, catfish noodling....THERE is a ******* sport I can respect! :lol:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Baby Rattlers do not have stronger venom. They feed on baby mice and crickets. No need for stronger venom. I don't know who started that, but it is folk lore. However, they do dump the whole shebang into you. I do know that,  but it doesn't take long for them to stop dumping. 

Even without a rattle, you hear them buzzing. If you don't, we call that natural selection. The dumb are not supposed to breed.

Except for the last bite I got, it was all feeding incedents. After a while, I just got a bad headache. While I feel snakes are not real intellegent, I am pretty sure that he knew he got me, and not the mouse. He didn't shut his mouth. 

When he wasn't hungry, I could take him out of his cage like a normal snake, and go about cleaning and such. Unfortunatly, no matter how much he ate, he was hungry a LOT. 

On his last bite, I had had it, and I twisted his head off. Yes, it does taste like chicken.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Woody Taylor said:


> Bob Scott said:
> 
> 
> > rattlesnake roundups
> ...


You bet! At least with the noodling, some big old snapper or a Cottonmouth with an attitude can give a nice accounting for itself. :lol: :lol:


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> On his last bite, I had had it, and I twisted his head off. Yes, it does taste like chicken.


The day has been a nice circle. I'm counting that last post of yours as the weirdest thing I'll read TOMORROW. :lol:

I have to know...what kind of rattler was it, and do you think you just built up immunity? I read a lot about that guy in Florida that injects himself with venom every day and takes shots from high-end vipers all the time.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Civilians. :roll:


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> You bet! At least with the noodling, some big old snapper or a Cottonmouth with an attitude can give a nice accounting for itself. :lol: :lol:


Those guys crack me up. Jamming that fist up god knows where in some lake in OK and letting some prehistoric 60 lb. fish with whiskers tear them a new one. Now that is a SPORT! Voluntary on both sides. :lol: 

Snappers are supreme bad a$$es. I love them. I had a small one I raised when I was young and volunteered at a nature center. I really think they are about the most aggressive animal I've ever seen/read of, even more so than wolverines and badgers. Alligator snappers are flat-out terrifying.

Cottonmouths are intense, too. My dad spent most of his childhood messing in swamps in NC...now those things have fight drive.


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Civilians. :roll:


Hah, the guy in Florida or me? He does it because he sells antivenom for a living and got sick of cobras tagging him.  

Sometimes my life seems really lame in comparison to folks like this.

Edited to say...the guy's name is  Bill Haast.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Noodling has just receintly become legal in Mo. Not that being illegal ever slowd down the participants. 
There was a receint study on different bite pressures form different critters. The Aligator Snapper was right at the top along with actual gators. 
The Cottonmouth is such a bada$$ because it keeps comming once it starts. Most of the time a Copperhead or Rattler wil bite and sit back to see what's next. 

ps. Woody, don't say fight drive to loudly. :lol: :lol: :wink:


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> The Cottonmouth is such a bada$$ because it keeps comming once it starts. Most of the time a Copperhead or Rattler wil bite and sit back to see what's next.
> 
> ps. Woody, don't say fight drive to loudly. :lol: :lol: :wink:


My dad and my uncle have horror stories about Cottonmouths chasing them. Of course, they were harassing them...but still. Just ugly, mean, efficient bastards.

Fight drive? Only seen it in a few snakes.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Both of you, for sure. :lol:


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Both of you, for sure. :lol:


I'm just enthusiastic, Jeff. I'm excited we're peeling back all these layers to the sensitive side of you that only bites the heads off of rattlers if they have bitten you more than ONCE. Who would have thought you were such an old softy? :wink:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Woody Taylor said:


> Jeff Oehlsen said:
> 
> 
> > Both of you, for sure. :lol:
> ...


 :lol: @ Woody. 
You shudda been a writer Woody. A fiction writer! :lol: :wink:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Oh, I got it more than once. He started getting pissy in his "mature" years and was a pain in the butt when it was time to clean out his cage. With all the food he got, he was pretty big, and even though I wasn't getting the bite down squeeze all the venom bites out of him, it still sucked. I was pretty much done with all that. Before he was no big deal to work with.

I just got tired of feeding pissy the wonder snake. One of my buddies skinned him and had a taxidermist put him back together. He was a bit mad that I took him out like that. Must of been a liberal.  :lol: 

They did a good job, and he looked pretty lifelike. :roll:


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Well, I just saw another rattler this morning when I went tracking. It was sunning itself on a rock. My BF saw one today at a job site. I talked it over with my breeder, the aversion therapy is not right for my young pup, so I'm taking him down to the vet today for the 1st of the 2 series vaccines. I feel like the snakes are trying to tell me something!!!! :lol:


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