# We talk about it, and still people just are not getting it.



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

AceofNike van het Bleekhof SchH3 Kkl1 WUSV x Gana von den Wannaer Hohen SchH3 KKl1

Look at the scores, still breeding to the winners. Might as well get into Dobermanns. LOL


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## Louise Jollyman (Jun 2, 2009)

You're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't. I think it's a shame we don't breed nice strong bitches to the top performers in this country. 

Is it OK to breed to Javir vom Talka Marda, but not OK to breed to Aceofnike?

Is it not OK to import a bitch at 12 weeks and train her to SchH3 and find a male who complements her well and has a "name"?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

What are the top performers producing ?? If anyone can show me where this thought process makes better and better dogs let me know.

I am not sure where this came from, used to see it a lot in AKC, probably still happens, maybe a carryover. Every decent breeder I have talked to tells me that you do not breed to the high scoring dog. Something to think about and not take too personally.

We also have a bunch of threads on this forum about this.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

I agree that the top sport dogs rarely are the best producers, but many people continue to breed to them. I myself bred two litters with a top level KNPVstud dog in Holland this year, a 440 point dog that was 2nd at the Dutch Championships last year. To be honest the litters from him were not bad, but were not what i am used to seeing out of our breedings with Arko (only a 424 point dog that had no chance of making it to the Nationals), in fact many top trainers in Holland said that Arko would never be able to be titled at all due to the difficulty in training him and his strong dominant character.
In my opinion some of the best quality dogs for breeding are hardly known, and may not be titled at all, they may be a farmers dog in the north of the Netherlands somewhere.
Of course there are exceptions, but for the most part I do believe that the strongest dogs are much more difficult to put big points on, and also they tend to produce stronger working traits in there offspring. 
just my opinion, but it is based on much trial and error from breeding to the high scoring, big points, great sport dogs.
Of course my opinion is built around a police dog, not a sport dog.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

JMO, most important is that the breeder knows a good dog when they see it and knows what they are doing. Titles don't make a dog better or worse for breeding...titles don't pass through the placenta...character will if the dogs are good producers. One must breed to dogs with "big motors" as the Belg say.


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## Louise Jollyman (Jun 2, 2009)

> What are the top performers producing ??


We'll never know if they don't get bred to decent females.



> Something to think about and not take too personally


How can I not take it personally when you specifically referenced my breeding? You didn't ask me why, you just made a derogatory statement.

I guess no-one on this list is interested, but our female is a very strong, dominant bitch with a lot of aggression. IMO she is not a points dog. I went through at least 10 females before I found one I felt was good enough to breed and had hips, health etc. 

My first breeding with her, was to my own male, a medium drive dog with a poor grip. The thing I like about him, is I can take him anywhere, he is very friendly, and he convinced a lot of people that Schutzhund dogs are not crazy biting machines. I am pretty happy with the results of the breeding, nerve could be better, but grip and drive are both good. 

For this breeding I was looking for a male with solid nerve, very nice drive for ball and food, a good tracker, excellent grip and also a male who wasn't too large. At Gana's Koer, the judge said to watch size, as Gana is a big bitch. Nike caught my eye when I competed at the WUSV in 2007 and he was on my shortlist which contained 4 other dogs.

If I breed to a farmer's dog, how do I persuade working homes to take the pups?


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## James Degale (Jan 9, 2009)

Lousie 

Good luck with the litter. It is going to be superb. 

I would ignore the village idiot. I've seen you compete and you know more about dog training than some of internet warriors here will ever know or achieve in their lifetimes. Sadly this forum used to be a good source of discussion but is being derailed by a small handful of ignoramuses, whose idea of dog sport is breed-bashing and schutzhund-bashing. If you even care to sift to the chaff that is posted here you'd soon realise these idiots have no clue about training, drives, dogs, breeding. Instead they spend their lives in front of the computer and are addicted and compelled to pass comments about anything and everything, when it is absolutely clear they have no knowledge whatsoever. I guess this is modern life, some people have an "internet addiction" and don't even realise it. My suggestion is that the person in question might get off their fat arse and achieve something in life and leave dog training to those who can. 

Shame you have left the UK, we could use a breeder like you here. Well done on qualifying your second dog to 3, she is a fiesty one I hear.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

This from Deagle who still thinks you have to scare a dog to get it to perform better. Tell me Deagle, how much experience do you have dog breeding ?? My bet is that you don't have any. 

Disagreeing with you is not derailing there special, it is called disagreeing. So anytime you want to tell me how a dog needs defense to "stay" in the fight, that would be great. Can't come through with answers to basic questions Deagle, maybe you should go and learn a thing or two about dog training before you open your mouth on a board and just start spouting what you have been told.

Louise, you can take it personally if you want, I wouldn't, it is a discussion board. Deagle's panties get all bunched up as he couldn't argue the value of the sun to save his life, and regularly gets punked by those he calls idiots. Don't be that person. If you bred to a medium drive male, you sound new to breeding.

I have seen the strong female weaker male do the weird nerve thing.

I hope that you don't take it personal, as then you would just be another boring female breeder in the US, producing boring dogs.


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## James Degale (Jan 9, 2009)

What a quick response, I guess some people just live in front of their computer screens. 

I bring dogs all dogs up in prey and possession/fight, loads of it, and introduce defense when they are ready ususally when they are 18months old at least, or never if they are not cut out for it.

If you don't know how to train, I would have just as well helped you if you asked rather than illicit an answer in a round about manner. If you scare your dog's that your bloody business.

Here's a proposition, why don't you show us a video of a dog, you have managed not to f*ck up. Louise has multiple videos of her dogs on the net and from what I see they are a whole lot more worthy to be bred from from the frantic, weak biters you keep in your trailer.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Still cannot argue to save your life. As for videos, show us your work, I certainly have plenty of mine on video. Show us this defense needed to "stay in the fight". LOL

Deagle, I do not sleep well, just woke up and took a look. Going to the gym here in a bit. Keep trying. Funny how I was not the only one with this opinion..............


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

I thought we were discussing the philosophy behind breeding and how to breed better working dogs? I had no idea I was stepping into a personal war..I haven't been on the list long enough to see that one coming..

I've had Americans (never the Belg) question me why aren't my females titled or why I used Dexter when he was young and not titled? I think everyone that is out there trying to breed good working dogs will get talked about at some time or another... Maybe that's when you know you've made it..whether it's good or bad talk at least they are talking!


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## James Degale (Jan 9, 2009)

"Defense needed to stay in fight" WTF???

Your momma doesn't teach you a thing does she. A dog can "fight" in prey or defense, depends on how much he wants to and the type of training he has had to keep him engaged on the bite. A lot of intensity when provoked can come defense, teaching a dog to raise his defense threshold makes him more reliable when stressed that is why i do it only when he is mature especially if i get him green and did not raise him as a pup. Waiting a few months before any serious scenario training is better than crushing a dog. Sticks, shouting, positional engagement etc can all be introduced in prey. That piece of advice you can get for free. 

Still waiting for that video "Mr my dog is rock-hard Oelhson". Give me a break, dumbass. Get job like the rest of us.


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## James Degale (Jan 9, 2009)

Debbie Skinner said:


> I thought we were discussing the philosophy behind breeding and how to breed better working dogs? I had no idea I was stepping into a personal war..I haven't been on the list long enough to see that one coming..
> 
> I've had Americans (never the Belg) question me why aren't my females titled or why I used Dexter when he was young and not titled? I think everyone that is out there trying to breed good working dogs will get talked about at some time or another... Maybe that's when you know you've made it..whether it's good or bad talk at least they are talking!


Well how many people here have seen the 2 dogs in question in flesh? I have seen one of them. 

Why the need to pass judgement and be condescending when 

1. you have never seen the dogs

2. have never produced anything of worth

3. never achieved anything worthwhile talking about. 

I cannot stand it when people like "Jeff the internet ar*ehole" forgets which end he is spouting from. All the breeder was doing was announcing the birth of some pups, which chances are are going to be good working prospects. If you disagree, do the polite thing and shut the f*ck up.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

transferred aggression?..


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

I think the biggest advantage the Europeans have over many American breeders is that there are many dog clubs in a drivable distance. Also, the ones they place in families/farms are close too. We in the USA end up selling dogs all over the country and don't get to see these dogs grow up and being trained for evaluation. Ideally for me, I'd love to be within driving distance of my pups to better evaluate them and visit them through all stages. Our country is big and clubs far apart.


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## Louise Jollyman (Jun 2, 2009)

> If you bred to a medium drive male, you sound new to breeding.


I am new, but am also brutally honest about my dogs. My "medium" is "high" to some people! My first litter, I wanted to see what my bitch was like to breed, if she was fertile, if she was a good mom etc.

As a first time breeder, I knew that I would be highly unlikely to find working homes, so again catch 22, do you breed to extreme, and hope that you can sell to working homes? As it turns out, one of the pups is a police dog, one I kept to train in schutzhund, and the other three are active pets who dabble a bit in obedience and schutzhund. But the really important thing is, they are in great homes, who take care of them well.


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## michael carroll (Jan 19, 2009)

I'd like to hear some opinions on which male gsd's are worthy of breeding in everyones opinion.I have a nike son out of a bitch named Clara od Natalky,he is 11 months old,I can't evaluate this puppy,because I have never titled a dog in schutzhund and don't belong to a club.However,I do know enough to know that he has a lot of prey drive and loves to bite on tugs.He is also crazy for a ball on rope.His food drive is not very good.I'm attempting to do some obedience work with this pup,but it is limited also since I am not a trainer,I just do what I can.I also have a nike grandson that I got from a friend of mine.The Nike son that belongs to my friend has a very high prey drive,bites very well full and calm and will retrieve anything,glass,rocks,keys,pvc,copper,anything.He was bred to a non-titled female that has an insane prey drive and will retrieve anything also.This pup is only 8 wks old this coming Tuesday,but he seems to have inherieted the prey drive from the parents.But like I said I am not qualified to judge the dogs all I can do is compare to videos that I've seen on other working litters as young pups in prey work,that being said,he looks very good to me as do all the pups in his litter.Before you guys tell me to go join a club,the reason that I haven't is that my wife and I were both employed at the same co. and both were laid off in early April,so right now that is not and option for me.I am very interested in schutzhund,and will join a club as soon as financially possible.As for now, what I really need is some kind of and outline on what and how I should be doing with these dogs now age specific for the two pups I have.I read everthing I can on the subject and watch videos,but thats not enough.I joined this forum to learn from the people on it, so if any of you would like to give me a hand it would be greatly appreciated.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

I know exactly what you mean as when I breed Beaucerons for work people say who are you going to sell them to? Many times, I have some strong and energetic dogs that lack drive..most "pet" people are looking for "couch potato - easy" dogs. I just keep on task. When people say that my dogs are "too hard" meaning difficult to handle...now after 20 years in it I say back "Well, the people are too soft". 

Beaucerons don't have a good rep as a working dog overall. Also, in France now more than ever it's more difficult for the working Beauceron breeders after the anti-crop laws. Now with the "floppies" that is natural ears and the airplaning eared Beauces..they are less attractive to a working dog person. Many people are expecting a certain size and "look" when buying a sport dog.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

I'd still like to have a Beuceron one day.


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## Jimmy Dalton (Apr 29, 2009)

I don't know a lot about this breeding , but I do know Nike. He is producing some very nice police dogs for the military and the street. I have also worked him personally quite a few times and he is a solid nerve dog, but the trainer is a very good trainer. He has been on the podium with very strong dogs and some very nice show dogs. He trains for the sport, not for the breeding.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

You want to join the few of us in the "crazy circle"! Why do it easy if you can do it HARD! Meaning why pick an easy breed to work with when you can find a difficult one! That's my motto. But, I have the Malinois to keep me a little sane.


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## Stephanie O'Brien (Sep 11, 2007)

I agree with Mike Suttle and Debbie. There are exceptions of course, but the best dogs for breeding are the dogs with the 'big motors' that you may never see on a competition field. Yes, many of these dogs may be titled but they aren't normally the ones bringing home all the trophies 
Regardless of who owns the dog or what sport they do or dont do with the dog, I can appreciate a quality dog when I see one. A good eye can decifer between training and genetics....IMO of course.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

There was no personal agenda, I think that people should be able to discuss without getting all emotional (beagle) the breeding of dogs

Quote: I cannot stand it when people like "Jeff the internet ar*ehole" forgets which end he is spouting from. All the breeder was doing was announcing the birth of some pups, which chances are are going to be good working prospects. If you disagree, do the polite thing and shut the f*ck up.

This is the kind of third grade "you can't come to my house anymore" mentality that is occuring in dog sports. "Do the polite thing" is not acceptable anymore. It is also funny how when you cannot keep up in a discussion I am an asshole. 

How many dogs out there with the big motor are getting good points ?? Are you sure that is a big motor ?? LOL


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

michael carroll said:


> I'd like to hear some opinions on which male gsd's are worthy of breeding in everyones opinion.I have a nike son out of a bitch named Clara od Natalky,he is 11 months old,I can't evaluate this puppy,because I have never titled a dog in schutzhund and don't belong to a club.However,I do know enough to know that he has a lot of prey drive and loves to bite on tugs.He is also crazy for a ball on rope.His food drive is not very good.I'm attempting to do some obedience work with this pup,but it is limited also since I am not a trainer,I just do what I can.I also have a nike grandson that I got from a friend of mine.The Nike son that belongs to my friend has a very high prey drive,bites very well full and calm and will retrieve anything,glass,rocks,keys,pvc,copper,anything.He was bred to a non-titled female that has an insane prey drive and will retrieve anything also.This pup is only 8 wks old this coming Tuesday,but he seems to have inherieted the prey drive from the parents.But like I said I am not qualified to judge the dogs all I can do is compare to videos that I've seen on other working litters as young pups in prey work,that being said,he looks very good to me as do all the pups in his litter.Before you guys tell me to go join a club,the reason that I haven't is that my wife and I were both employed at the same co. and both were laid off in early April,so right now that is not and option for me.I am very interested in schutzhund,and will join a club as soon as financially possible.As for now, what I really need is some kind of and outline on what and how I should be doing with these dogs now age specific for the two pups I have.I read everthing I can on the subject and watch videos,but thats not enough.I joined this forum to learn from the people on it, so if any of you would like to give me a hand it would be greatly appreciated.


Go join a club, ha,ha just kidding. Seriously though it's usually not much $ to join, it's the how far away that get's costly. What part of the world are you from? You may find someone here willing to help out. It's very hard to train a dog right without someone to get you started in the right direction. Sorry to go OT.


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## James Degale (Jan 9, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> How many dogs out there with the big motor are getting good points ?? Are you sure that is a big motor ?? LOL


Well show us then an example of your dogs, still waiting for that video, chicken sh*t..

Put up or shut the f*ck up. 

Last time I looked the sire was SCH Vice Sieger 2008. When was the last time you were on the podium of an international competition. That's right, none, you and your shit, mangy mutts. What do you know about bringing the best out of a dog? You wouldn't know a good if it bit you on your ar*e, or make that mouth, you make it hard to tell the difference.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Poor little nerve bag beagle still trying to run with the big dogs in life, can't seem to keep up. Show us your video of your dog working. I have several to choose from right here on this forum.

Try and stay on topic, I know it is hard for you when you cannot control something, but do try and not make it so personal. I am going to play in your sandbox wether or not you want me too. AND you cannot stop me.

HA HA


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## James Degale (Jan 9, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Poor little nerve bag beagle still trying to run with the big dogs in life, can't seem to keep up. Show us your video of your dog working. I have several to choose from right here on this forum.
> 
> Try and stay on topic, I know it is hard for you when you cannot control something, but do try and not make it so personal. I am going to play in your sandbox wether or not you want me too. AND you cannot stop me.
> 
> HA HA



What's the matter, cannot take as good as you give to others? Why don't you get momma to kiss it all better. 

Still waiting for that video. Maybe then we can all understand what a "big motor" dog should look like. In my next trip to the US I might even make the special effort to visit you and chase your scrawny mutts off the field myself.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Debbie Skinner said:


> I think the biggest advantage the Europeans have over many American breeders is that there are many dog clubs in a drivable distance. Also, the ones they place in families/farms are close too. We in the USA end up selling dogs all over the country and don't get to see these dogs grow up and being trained for evaluation. Ideally for me, I'd love to be within driving distance of my pups to better evaluate them and visit them through all stages. Our country is big and clubs far apart.


That's it. I'm moving to California.

Kidding! :lol: 

I am planning to head out there to watch the NARA Championship in October. Hope to see you all there!


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

I love this forum! I wonder if it has an overstimulating effect on some


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## michael carroll (Jan 19, 2009)

EDward,I know it doesn't cost alot to join a club,but unemployment doesn't go very far either.I'm in east-central Alabama.I have a club about an hour away,I think it is a good club,Gary and Pam Hanrahan run the club,but like I said unemployment doesn't stretch that far.Later I'll be joining a club,but for now it's a make do sitiuation.Just hoping for a little help from some people with experience to guide me for now.Just trying to keep the dogs interested and busy and avoid doing anything to ruin them.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: What's the matter, cannot take as good as you give to others? Why don't you get momma to kiss it all better. 

Mom doesn't do that, however, I can get your mom to do all kinds of things for fifty bucks.

Still waiting for that video. Maybe then we can all understand what a "big motor" dog should look like. In my next trip to the US I might even make the special effort to visit you and chase your scrawny mutts off the field myself.

Love to see you beagle, I love little people who are threatened by discussion. You feel free to look me up, maybe I will show you how to run a human off the field, by beating him with his dog.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I can do this all day beagle. More than glad to make you look silly.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Ha!Ha! 

Normally I'm here as it's scheduled to be on our field here at our ranch! It will be great to meet you. You'll get to see D'Only and others in the family. There will be a couple Dexter kids trialing I think as well as Avatar the wonder Beaucerons! 

You bringing Juiceman?


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

..I meant Avatar the wonder-Beauceron. Not Beaucerons.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

It will be great to meet you too! I'm definitely planning to bring Juice!


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## James Degale (Jan 9, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: What's the matter, cannot take as good as you give to others? Why don't you get momma to kiss it all better.
> 
> Mom doesn't do that, however, I can get your mom to do all kinds of things for fifty bucks.
> 
> ...


Ohhh somebody is getting touchy. Your momma busy tonight, she kicked you out of the trailer? 

Go on village idiot why don't you go on and show off your stupidy all night long. You are the biggest joke on this forum. Sad thing is you think people take you seriously. Last i heard you could get your dog to heel let alone bite. hahhahha


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

Last i heard you could get your dog to heel let alone bite. hahhahha[/quote said:


> Biting is genetic!..."Your Momma" jokes are are so '90's. Now let's continue on with some real ingenius name calling. Better yet we could start a thread with just "Your Momma" jokes\\/
> 
> I'll start......Your momma's so dirty she makes the flies on dog shit pass out :-$:-o


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

What points a dog get is not only a fact of how big motor it has, it´s much upon the competence of the trainer, so to say "pointdogs" are less fitted for breeding isn´t always true, "big motor" is also pretty subjective I suppose.
But sure, a dog with a big motor and strong will isn´t so easy to win with, on the other hand many in both police and sport seems to have problem with too much dog anyway.

This dog I suppose we can call a pointdog, placed 15th at BSP 2004, but this I think is a strong dog with a very good handler, sid vom haus pixner,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWgf...750A6B5DB&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=2

Another popular stud at the moment here in sweden, mike weinbergblick, same lines as sid v haus pixners mother, this dog is supposed to have a big motor, but don´t know what you think, some clips of him can be seen here,
http://www.jurassic.se/filearea_25.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e95datpg1Rc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyUS2AZQH7s


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Erik Berg said:


> What points a dog get is not only a fact of how big motor it has, it´s much upon the competence of the trainer, so to say "pointdogs" are less fitted for breeding isn´t always true, "big motor" is also pretty subjective I suppose.
> But sure, a dog with a big motor and strong will isn´t so easy to win with, on the other hand many in both police and sport seems to have problem with too much dog anyway.
> 
> This dog I suppose we can call a pointdog, placed 15th at BSP 2004, but this I think is a strong dog with a very good handler, sid vom haus pixner,
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWgf...750A6B5DB&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=2


Your assessment of the dog may be correct but the trainer/handler meh


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## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

And...... Your momma so fat she sat beside everyone in class.#-o


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I saw your momma kicking a can the other day, I asked her what she was doing, and she said, "moving".


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Your assessment of the dog may be correct but the trainer/handler meh


I think it´s safe to say he has for long passed the stage of being an internetexpert when it comes to dogtraining


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Erik Berg said:


> What points a dog get is not only a fact of how big motor it has, it´s much upon the competence of the trainer, so to say "pointdogs" are less fitted for breeding isn´t always true, "big motor" is also pretty subjective I suppose.
> But sure, a dog with a big motor and strong will isn´t so easy to win with, on the other hand many in both police and sport seems to have problem with too much dog anyway.
> 
> This dog I suppose we can call a pointdog, placed 15th at BSP 2004, but this I think is a strong dog with a very good handler, sid vom haus pixner,
> ...


I know this man. He came to give us a seminar ( training weekend). He was around 50 when he came (a good few years ago) and was still a helper. He said he managed it because he let the dogs work, not vice versa. He was împressed by my Briard who he said was the only dog who did what he was told to. (I had to go last because I hadn't got a GSD) but I was observing very well!!

He has the Leipheimr Moor kennels - Laines Leipheimer Moor was a great dog.

Sid Haus Pixner is my younger dog's father.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Erik Berg said:


> I think it´s safe to say he has for long passed the stage of being an internetexpert when it comes to dogtraining


Well then why doesn't he give the dog the score it deserves. There is no reason this dog cant be trained to do a proper call out or proper position during back transport or be natural to the handlers approach.
Those three exercises would have prolly put him in the top 5
If he is the trainer you infer him to be hopefully if he is showing the dog this year he will have these issues cleaned up.
Nasty tough dogs can be trained to get V scores and look good doing it. There are a handful of great dog trainers that have it figured out. 
I hope the day comes when I can say I'm one of them.:smile:


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