# table training? what is it suposed to do?



## chris haynie (Sep 15, 2009)

what is the point of table training? 

i admit i have only seen it some videos and those were earlier this morning, but it looks kind of foolish. perhaps the videos were of improper table training but it seems like an easy way to waste time and accomplish nothing. 

did someone just think "how can i get my dog biting with out a helper/decoy?"

is it supposed to stress the dog into working in defense? 

please someone shed some light on this for me...im very confused by it.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

chris haynie said:


> what is the point of table training?
> 
> i admit i have only seen it some videos and those were earlier this morning, but it looks kind of foolish. perhaps the videos were of improper table training but it seems like an easy way to waste time and accomplish nothing.
> 
> ...


Hey Chris,
It actually sounds like you are not as confused about it as you may think.
There are right ways to do it and of course wrong ways. I am not sure what videos you watched, but most of the time I see it done in my opinion it only masks problems that the dog has. I dont use a table and dont understand it enough to do it correctly I guess. if I have a dog that needs to be worked that way, I dont need that dog.
Now maybe when I am 90 years old and I can benifit from having the dog elevated a few feet so I dont have to bend my back then i may use it.
Their are people who get improved results from it. There are many more people who get bad results from using it wrong. Just my thoughts.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I see no need for it, unless I have a weaker dog, or a dog whose thresholds are too high, or my back hurts.

There is a greater chance that you will break something in the dogs head. I have seen this abused way more than I have seen it used correctly. There are always consequences for it's use. Ask Konnie how she is seeing consequences. 

People just want to build stuff, I swear.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

we put my rottie on the table last night for the first time. While, he's not totally weak he is weaker than stronger. There is a trial coming up in Jan and one of the helpers is know to be a more "present" than others and I want to be ready. A strong dog wouldn't have issues with this but my rottie might so we thought a table session would help for this trial. The session was the only one the dog will ever endure and we used on of the most experienced helpers in the area to do it as it could ruin a dog. 

As it's been said, a strong dog doesn't need table work. I have two working dogs, the Mal won't need any table work but the Rottie is the weaker of the two and we thought IN THIS CASE he would benefit from the session. It appears it did and the dog left the field still wanting to work. We ended the session with a bunch of prey bites and then did another no fail session before we went home. 

The bottom line is, it depends on your dog and what you want to do with it. Some folks have the luxury and mentally to get rid of one dog for another strong one but if it's your only dog and you just want to compete then it's something that you might think about if you have a weaker dog.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

If you can just get it through your head that it is about the sport not the dog, then throwing out the trash is much easier.

If you love the dog, and do whatever, then who cares, you are a pet person.

The thing that tables are good for is amping it up enough to get past monster thresholds like Rotts have.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Before this goes too far, there are two locked threads on table training. This could easily become the third.

DFrost


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## Chad Alden (Nov 16, 2009)

It appears from the posts that most have had bad experiences with Tables / Bite Boxes. Everyone in our club swears by them and we have all seen impressive results though more so from the Bite Box then the Table. The majority of our Dogs are Personal Protection Dogs first and Sport Dogs second.

The Table / Bite Box really helps with focus and targeting. In most cases it is a very short back tie which gives the dog a limited amount of motion. It focuses their attention forward (though not as much as a bite box). It is a valuable tool in grip development amoung other things. It brings the dog up to your level and really lets the dog pile in on the grips if you do it correctly. It can also really help the dog learn to be calm and committed on the bite though you do not see much of that in most videos. The best part is that the dog is at your level and it helps the dog with confidence as well. It is a very valuable tool. The bite box adds even more focus do to the limited range of motion for the dog. 

I think it’s important to be clear on what your goal is before you use any training tool or technique. Remember what works for some does not work for others.

-Chad


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

So your dogs have thumbs ?? How much "grip" do you think a dog can have ?? Do you think that after you are done with your box training that a dog could hang from a branch with one leg ?? Or would the dog need two ??


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Chad Alden said:


> ...
> The Table / Bite Box really helps with focus and targeting... The bite box adds even more focus do to the limited range of motion for the dog.
> 
> I think it’s important to be clear on what your goal is before you use any training tool or technique. Remember what works for some does not work for others.
> ...


 Chad it's OMO, but if you need to have "a box" or "a table" to make the dog "focus," what is the decoy doing? What is the maturity level of the dog? Isn't the role of the handler and their skill with the leash to also control the range of motion of the dog?:-k

Reading from what some trainers or decoys write, many dogs can't operate because there is one issue or another. My bet is that if decoys put limited stress or defense on young dogs or puppies, these animals would shine. Now understand that you can't take a junk dog and make it into a winner, those are few and far between!


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## chris haynie (Sep 15, 2009)

thanks for helping me understand this ya'll.

Mike S. i am going to call you today on an unrelated matter...need to talk to you about if any of your dogs/pups could be suitable for me as a first time Schutzhund handler. 

i appreciate the insight on this and didn't mean to go stirring up any arguments, just wanted to enlighten myself and be sure my reasoning and thoughts on this training method were sound.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Shame you caved in on doing ringsports. I take it there was nothing close ??


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

chris haynie said:


> ... just wanted to enlighten myself and be sure my reasoning and thoughts on this training method were sound.


If you use "search," you will find dozens of pages on this topic on the two long and detailed threads David mentioned.


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## chris haynie (Sep 15, 2009)

yeah that was kind of the trouble with the ringsports. I still intend to train in the ring stuff, but i figure with my first working dog it would be best to stick with a club that close enough to train at every weekend. after a two or three schutzhund titles and whatnot i will certainly go for the ring training n titles. 

search function seems to escape me most times i should be using it, yet if im just wanting to read random stuff i use it...sorry.


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## Marina Schmidt (Jun 11, 2009)

Here in Germany table training is pretty popular. You did understood it right, the purpose is to work the dog in defense. He's tied, on a higher place to be "eyes to eyes" with the decoy, and the surface is usually slippery. One who uses table training very well is Stefan from the Kennel "von der Staatsmacht", here take a look http://www.youtube.com/user/staatsmacht15 . On the other site there are also much bad videos on youtube, like Sven's, he didn't really understand to do it right, just watch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cQ4VO8V_yU . In conclusion table training is just an training tool like every other, you can either like or dislike it, use it or abuse it.


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## Sue DiCero (Sep 2, 2006)

And to clarify...

Table training was done in Europe for years, specifically Germany, before it was duplicated over here.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Sue DiCero said:


> And to clarify...
> 
> Table training was done in Europe for years, specifically Germany, before it was duplicated over here.


Long before the proclaimed "King" did it here in the States. I was first exposed to the table in 1966, while training in Wiesbaden Germany.

DFrost


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

I don't see the point, but I haven't ever seen one used. If it is to put a dog in defense, why not just get a decoy with some presence and have them do it?


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

If you have seen one used and used RIGHT, you'd get it.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Don't be confused, there are two different tables both for different results.#1- defence table #2- round table. They are tools and nothing more as the retrieve table is. How many don't like the retrieve table or like it? Can the same results be done on the ground, yes they can. Why is the retrieve table used by the people that breed dogs just for this? My guess is to make even a good dog better.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Sorry. Posted without my last line.


Does anyone train with a table that would be willing to open their doors for me to watch?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: If you have seen one used and used RIGHT, you'd get it

Oh like you have.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

This question isn't quite related to table training but it does draw from a similar concept if you put aside the defense piece. I discovered somewhat by accident that my dog is far more active and committed to tugging and play when on an elevated surface. I'm sure the reason for that is staring me in the face but the answer for why that is isn't clear to me. I do have some ideas about why it may be but am not sure if I am on the right track with my thoughts.

She'll screw around on the trailer for hours but once she's on the ground she seems to lose interest. So I wonder why does the elevation seem make a difference to her? This isn't something new, she was like this as a puppy as well, if she had to plow into, over or on something her intensity was always greater. This thread just seemed like a place to put the question since I was curious about it.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Nicole Stark said:


> This question isn't quite related to table training but it does draw from a similar concept if you put aside the defense piece. I discovered somewhat by accident that my dog is far more active and committed to tugging and play when on an elevated surface. I'm sure the reason for that is staring me in the face but the answer for why that is isn't clear to me. I do have some ideas about why it may be but am not sure if I am on the right track with my thoughts.
> 
> She'll screw around on the trailer for hours but once she's on the ground she seems to lose interest. So I wonder why does the elevation seem make a difference to her? This isn't something new, she was like this as a puppy as well, if she had to plow into, over or on something her intensity was always greater. This thread just seemed like a place to put the question since I was curious about it.


 
Post a video. It is hard to tell with what you are saying, and nothing to see to back it up, but it sounds like that your dog works harder when you put pressure on her. Defensive pressure. It would be neat to see...


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Yes actually Jeff I have. Our club however doesn't allow pictures or video of dogs on the table, since it is such a contovercial piece of equipment, for whatever reason. Pitty it has to be that way. I have seen video's here and on youtube of bad training, table and ground. I wasn't at all worried to put my 10 mo boy up there a few weeks ago for his first time and let my trainer do his thing. All of the dogs seem to love the table after a few sessions on it, so they can't be seeing it as a negative.

Jeff if you ask around (not that you would, that would be beneath you) Lucillano Oliva does a pretty good job training bitework, table or ground. I know there are quite a few people that come from back east, the midwest and as far up as Alaska, that come to learn and have their dogs worked on the table. But who am I to tell the all knowing Jeff anything??? =; 

Luc has an open mind and will work a dog from any venue, not just his sport of choice. Police, schutzhund, PPD, Mondio and FR people show up all the time to work issues in their dogs, they can't get fixed elsewhere. I'm glad to be a part of the "crowd" for sheer volume of people and venues I get exposed to and questions I get answered.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Dave Colborn said:


> Post a video. It is hard to tell with what you are saying, and nothing to see to back it up, but it sounds like that your dog works harder when you put pressure on her. Defensive pressure. It would be neat to see...


I'll probably get an answer before I can get a video up - the trailer is being worked on right now. Besides that though, she's not a working dog or even an apt breed for what most people do here so a clip of her probably wouldn't interest many people. About the best I could do at the moment would be to show you a clip of her getting up on a higher surface, obviously it wouldn't show you much. But if you want to see the dog you can check her out below. This is Willow 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ny8RwjJxcQM


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I see no need for it, unless I have a weaker dog, or a dog whose thresholds are too high, or my back hurts.
> 
> There is a greater chance that you will break something in the dogs head. I have seen this abused way more than I have seen it used correctly. There are always consequences for it's use. Ask Konnie how she is seeing consequences.
> 
> People just want to build stuff, I swear.


 
AMEN!

I have never seen anyone of any discpline blame the table for making thier dog great...but many have told me how they have ruined a perfectly good dog with a table.


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

I have dogs that like to be up high. Just by your words my guess is the dog feels more confident or empowered. I don't agree with the table always eqUalling defense work, I've seen it used other ways. I doubt your putting your dog in defense, if so please correct me lol. My guess is the dog feels empowered. Think of a dogs view, on the ground you are towering over her...when elevated she is more at your level....this is just a total guess but that is what is sounds like to me. You mentioned you had some thoughts on it curious what your idea is being that you can see the dog.

T


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

What I see everyone doing with the table is trying install something in the dog that is not there. That if they just do it right, this primal monster that lives within the dog will come out. And I see that at first people may get this or maybe even just glimpse of it. So they continue it, but the cumlative effect over time, just wears the dog out. And it happens slow, the harder the dog, slower it happens. but it happens. Then they scratch thier head wondering what the hell happened to thier dog. I have noticed the same effect with E-collars used for Ob.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

tracey delin said:


> .... I don't agree with the table always eqUalling defense work, I've seen it used other ways. I doubt your putting your dog in defense, if so please correct me ...


As we did in the other long LONG table threads, we seem to get two different discussions: one about the *defense table* and one ... not.

JMO.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> As we did in the other long LONG table threads, we seem to get two different discussions: one about the *defense table* and one ... not.
> 
> JMO.


 
Why would you build a table to work a dog in prey? seems like a waste of wood.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

James Downey said:


> Why would you build a table to work a dog in prey? seems like a waste of wood.


I don't know. But: 


tracey delin said:


> I don't agree with the table always eqUalling defense work, I've seen it used other ways.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Marina Schmidt said:


> Here in Germany table training is pretty popular. You did understood it right, the purpose is to work the dog in defense. He's tied, on a higher place to be "eyes to eyes" with the decoy, and the surface is usually slippery. One who uses table training very well is Stefan from the Kennel "von der Staatsmacht", here take a look http://www.youtube.com/user/staatsmacht15 . On the other site there are also much bad videos on youtube, like Sven's, he didn't really understand to do it right, just watch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cQ4VO8V_yU . In conclusion table training is just an training tool like every other, you can either like or dislike it, use it or abuse it.


Most naysayers here are card carrying members of the "Flat Earth Society" clueless, have never seen it done, never seen it done properly, or drinking to much of Edd Frawley koolaid.
I Have a good amount of video of Stefan working my Jett on the table we have been bringing him her for several years now prolly going to be seeing much more of him soon.:mrgreen: 
Here is a glimpse of his table work and the product www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWydN6KfFLI&feature=related much more if you look around his site and links.
There's a bunch of good work and video of Mike Diehl's box and table work on his web site 
www.diehlspolicek9training.com/training.asp#


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

tracey delin said:


> I have dogs that like to be up high. Just by your words my guess is the dog feels more confident or empowered. I don't agree with the table always eqUalling defense work, I've seen it used other ways. I doubt your putting your dog in defense, if so please correct me lol. My guess is the dog feels empowered. Think of a dogs view, on the ground you are towering over her...when elevated she is more at your level....this is just a total guess but that is what is sounds like to me. You mentioned you had some thoughts on it curious what your idea is being that you can see the dog.
> 
> T


 
I am just going to throw this out there. If a dog feels me empowered elevated...what happens to that empowerment when he is back on the ground....how do you get these feeling of empowerment to stick once the stimulus of elevation is removed? I am going to guess the effect is like when a weak guy has all his buddies around and talks mad shit to a guy twice his size....once his buddies are gone, he pisses his pants.

If I have to put my dog up on a literal pedstal to give him a pair of balls...let's just say I would soon be shopping for another dog.


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

I agree with you james, never used a table on any of my personal dogs. However recall she said the dog was NOT a working dog and wouldn't bite on the ground....but liked to be up high.... That's my thoughts on it.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

James Downey said:


> What I see everyone doing with the table is trying install something in the dog that is not there. That if they just do it right, this primal monster that lives within the dog will come out. And I see that at first people may get this or maybe even just glimpse of it. So they continue it, but the cumlative effect over time, just wears the dog out. And it happens slow, the harder the dog, slower it happens. but it happens. Then they scratch their head wondering what the hell happened to their dog. I have noticed the same effect with E-collars used for Ob.


Well I can tell you with most certainty you haven't seen the table or the collar used property.
Here is a old and very simple rule."All good things should be used in moderation"


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Mike...The Youtube vid? That was intended to make me a believer? Dog vocalizing on the bite. Having to constantly help his grip, then when the dog goes to the floor...what happened to all that aggression? Looks like the dog went back to normal prey doggy stuff to me....if you could call a dog backing up frantically on the table after the sleeve was slipped aggressive?...what was with the immediate slip of the sleeve? I know the only time I do that is when the dog won't hang on very long. And I am not sure if I am seeing that on the field on the long attack because the video stops almost immeditaly when the dog hits the ground,...but it looks like the helper is already slipping the sleeve.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Tracey and James, I'd like to offer up my input but wanted to wait to see what feedback I received without too much more input from myself on why I think this might be. To clarify, we're talking about a non working/sporting dog who engages in play willingly when elevated but otherwise doesn't seem interested. I also noted a few months back that she'll work with things like large rolling chairs, snow machine seats, and luggage but has never taken an interest in a sleeve. In fact, she rarely has ever tore up anything but when given a chance to get at the chair or snow machine seat she tugged till she ripped them up and wouldn't leave them alone once she started. I moved the chair into a room and put the seat outside to keep her away from them. With this extra info it might give you something to work with. I'm interested in knowing because I've honestly never had a dog I had to work so hard to motivate to play with so when she does and so noticeably different from what otherwise appears normal, I was interested in understanding a bit more about what this was driven by.

BTW, the trailer is not stable. It moves sometimes a foot or two forward and several inches side to side when she gets to playing harder. I mention that because I don't want anyone to think she's on what would be considered a stable plat form. It's not, at all.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Well I can tell you with most certainty you haven't seen the table or the collar used property.
> Here is a old and very simple rule."All good things should be used in moderation"


I do think you have point with the use of moderation, I think judicial use of the collar is very important. But again I hear this from others...who use an E-collar every training session. Like an drunk alkie talking about moderation. I do use an E-collar...And before used it almost every training session. This is where I noticed in my own dog, at first the collar seemed like a magical training tool, then over time, she started to become frantic...and I swear I never used any correction collars in tracking. But my dog started missing articles and corners. and her ob went flat after a time. So at first, great results, then panic, then she started to quit. Were talking over a period of 4 years this took to slowly happen. I did not put it together till I stopped using the collar for a period of time. then noticed soon she was tracking good again. That's when I started to pay attention to others using the collars. They were having similar results, though thier response was more E-collar. 

I was at trial this summer when I was talking with a man about his dog, who was very nice as a young dog. He said she seems to not like doing this anymore, and then he held up his remote and said "so I make her like it"...It was an AH HA moment for me...But he did not catch what he had just said.


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

I love discussions like this so forgive my nerdiness lol. 

Again totally guessing. Sounds like she needs a challenge and maybe you alone are not exciting enough for her... I had a cocky dominate super confident bitch that also loved to be up high.and on anything no matter how unsafe it was.....to me I always read it that it made her feel even moreso


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Nicole Stark said:


> Tracey and James, I'd like to offer up my input but wanted to wait to see what feedback I received without too much more input from myself on why I think this might be. To clarify, we're talking about a non working/sporting dog who engages in play willingly when elevated but otherwise doesn't seem interested. I also noted a few months back that she'll work with things like large rolling chairs, snow machine seats, and luggage but has never taken an interest in a sleeve. In fact, she rarely has ever tore up anything but when given a chance to get at the chair or snow machine seat she tugged till she ripped them up and wouldn't leave them alone once she started. I moved the chair into a room and put the seat outside to keep her away from them. With this extra info it might give you something to work with. I'm interested in knowing because I've honestly never had a dog I had to work so hard to motivate to play with so when she does and so noticeably different from what otherwise appears normal, I was interested in understanding a bit more about what this was driven by.
> 
> BTW, the trailer is not stable. It moves sometimes a foot or two forward and several inches side to side when she gets to playing harder. I mention that because I don't want anyone to think she's on what would be considered a stable plat form. It's not, at all.


There is something other than the toy that is stimulating the behavior. That's pretty obvious. It's hard to say what it is but with the info you gave. Your relating it to the elevation of the dog. Could it be something else, like the movement of the trailer, that the chair rolls around...that the dog knows the snow machine moves and/or makes noise. If that's the case thier is some sort of classical conditioning the dog has to those stimulus. 

You can try experimenting, like take a cordless drill, hold out a toy, and turn the drill on...if the noise makes her reactive and she bites the toy...then you know she is reacting ot something. Becareful she does not bite the drill...I know it sounds cooky...but I have dog that will only bite with shit like going on aroumd him


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

James Downey said:


> Mike...The Youtube vid? That was intended to make me a believer? Dog vocalizing on the bite. Having to constantly help his grip, then when the dog goes to the floor...what happened to all that aggression? Looks like the dog went back to normal prey doggy stuff to me....if you could call a dog backing up frantically on the table after the sleeve was slipped aggressive?...what was with the immediate slip of the sleeve? I know the only time I do that is when the dog won't hang on very long. And I am not sure if I am seeing that on the field on the long attack because the video stops almost immeditaly when the dog hits the ground,...but it looks like the helper is already slipping the sleeve.


I dont give a shit what you think you watch 2 minutes of video and draw a conclusion WOW:lol: Pfft 
I posted the video and made mention of his work and made mention of site and links so people here can view video of what I consider good table work. 
I also linked Diehl's site he just won the USA nationals 3 of the top 5 competitors/dogs are from his club and if you know any thing about him or the type of dogs he shows or the type of dogs in his club they ain't playing and they ain't sporty dog trainers. 
Not sure if you or how many people you train with that compete nationally or abroad or have have competed in the Bundessieger or worked it,Competed at LGA, WUSV,FCI, extra extra.The people who's sites I linked have for what that's worth. 
These little video clips are glimpses of parts of training system that these people use there is allot more to the system than the table. 
How damn long you been training Schutzhund dogs I want to know how long it takes to know it all James.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Mike Scheiber said:


> I dont give a shit what you think you watch 2 minutes of video and draw a conclusion WOW:lol: Pfft
> I posted the video and made mention of his work and made mention of site and links so people here can view video of what I consider good table work.
> I also linked Diehl's site he just won the USA nationals 3 of the top 5 competitors/dogs are from his club and if you know any thing about him or the type of dogs he shows or the type of dogs in his club they ain't playing and they ain't sporty dog trainers.
> Not sure if you or how many people you train with that compete nationally or abroad or have have competed in the Bundessieger or worked it,Competed at LGA, WUSV,FCI, extra extra.The people who's sites I linked have for what that's worth.
> ...


Okay, I have trained with a guy who won a worlds, came in third in another. Same guy has worked 3 worlds, another who worked 2 worlds. 2 others that were on world teams. maybe half a dozen that competed at the national level ( and you do realize in order to claim this prestige of being a national competetior one only has submit his entry with a fee) . One who came in 9th out of 70 dogs at the AWDF without ever putting a correction collar on his dog. You know what that makes me....Just another squirrel trying to get a nut. Just like you. So stop dropping names like Tigers hoes drop thier panties.

I do know Mike Diehl I am familiar with his training. Great guy. But I may not like his training. And if you know Mike...He does not give a shit what you or I think of his training. You see when you start speaking from the experience of other people, you drag them into it. And if were going to do that...None of them have beaten Ivan...does he use a table? What does that mean?...people who use tables cannot beat the guy who does not. 

And you can keep that There not sporty so there better shit....bullshit. there just not sporty, that's it. I am sure they have lost to sporty dog. Because when it's all said and done...were all sporty. Until they load the dog up in a Cruiser or a Humvee thier ****ing sporty.

Were discussing table training. You posted a video for the world to see, and said here's the product. Now your pissed some examined it and comment on it. Well IMO the product sucked. When you heard that, it no longer was a product but just a glimpse of the process...so which one is it? the prodcut or the processI commented on what I saw in the video...not overall picture of what the dog was going to be trial day. I mean by all means if that's what you want for your dog...go right on ahead. I wish more people would build those tables. 

Mike, seriously it's dog training. Not stem cell research so save the protest for an abortion march.

As for how long it takes to know it all... I humble enough actually to watch, examine and process the information and see if I like it or if even works. Instead of doing what Mike Diehl does.

But I got to hand it to you Mike...Your a passionate ****er.

And just to be fair...That is impressive that Mikes Club had that much success at the nationals.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: 
Jeff if you ask around (not that you would, that would be beneath you) Lucillano Oliva does a pretty good job training bitework, table or ground. I know there are quite a few people that come from back east, the midwest and as far up as Alaska, that come to learn and have their dogs worked on the table. But who am I to tell the all knowing Jeff anything??? 

Ok, well, nice ego. I guess you have it all figured out. So how many dogs have you trained on the table ?? How many people have you seen work a dog on the table ?? How many dogs have YOU worked on a table ??

Are the benefits of the table really worth it ?? Where do you see damage later ??

You are like a person that has seen the game of basketball a couple of times and now is a color commentator. How is it your opinion would be anything but suspect ??

HA HA prego my eggo! ! ! ! !


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I have always wondered what people think is going on. 

Mike, can you tell me what the dog is thinking when he first is given the command to revier ?? 

Is that a confident sound coming from the dog ??

Notice how enough time lapses for the dog to realize he is not really in danger, and then the dog starts back with the bark.

Just for kicks, the dog rushes into the blind hectic like that, takes a head slap......... is the "real" dog gonna bite me ?? or run back to daddy ?? : )

I just want to see what you have to say. My vote is he is runnning off to daddy.

Defense table round table, it is just spinning a high threshold dog up and shaping a behavior. 

Schutzhund is GAY.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Anyone train in NC with a table? VA. East Coast. Shoot me a PM I would genuinely like to see some dogs worked this way to SEE if there is any value to it for MY training program/bag o' nifty tricks.


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## Marina Schmidt (Jun 11, 2009)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Most naysayers here are card carrying members of the "Flat Earth Society" clueless, have never seen it done, never seen it done properly, or drinking to much of Edd Frawley koolaid.
> I Have a good amount of video of Stefan working my Jett on the table we have been bringing him her for several years now prolly going to be seeing much more of him soon.:mrgreen:
> Here is a glimpse of his table work and the product www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWydN6KfFLI&feature=related much more if you look around his site and links.
> There's a bunch of good work and video of Mike Diehl's box and table work on his web site
> www.diehlspolicek9training.com/training.asp#


So Stefan worked with your dogs? Nice. I plan to visit him in his kennel soon.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

James Downey said:


> I do think you have point with the use of moderation, I think judicial use of the collar is very important. But again I hear this from others...who use an E-collar every training session. Like an drunk alkie talking about moderation. I do use an E-collar...And before used it almost every training session. This is where I noticed in my own dog, at first the collar seemed like a magical training tool, then over time, she started to become frantic...and I swear I never used any correction collars in tracking. But my dog started missing articles and corners. and her ob went flat after a time.


Sorry for the diversion from table training, just wanted to reply about this comment on Ecollars that crept in. 

Using Ecollars improperly will often have this result. Using too much compulsion, no matter what the tool, has the effect of focusing the dog's attention off the work and onto the handler. That may be one reason that you're seeing your dig miss articles and corners. Some dogs become _"frantic"_ and their OB suffers because they're anticipating another correction. Dogs are able to prepare themselves for a leash correction because they can see and feel the handler preparing to deliver it, but the Ecollar correction seem to come out of the blue. If you use my methods with low level stim, this does not happen. 



James Downey said:


> So at first, great results, then panic, then she started to quit.


You get great results at first because of the novelty of the corrections. Then you get panic because the dog does not understand how to make it stop. The you get quitting because the dog is anticipating a correction and often has learned that the handler is a "safe spot." 



James Downey said:


> I was at trial this summer when I was talking with a man about his dog, who was very nice as a young dog. He said she seems to not like doing this anymore, and then he held up his remote and said "so I make her like it"...It was an AH HA moment for me...But he did not catch what he had just said.


Really a shame. You can force a dog to do lots of things. But you can't force scent work and if a dog is being forced to do other things, it's usually easy for someone who can read dogs, to see. 

And to bring this back on topic. Can anyone tell me why so many people have their table equipment indoors while the rest of their training equipment, window jumps, high jumps, A–frames, etc. are outdoors? I know one person who uses a table who's stated (to the effect) that after he first saw table work, as soon as he got home the first thing he did was to erect a building to house his tables. He didn't say that the first thing he did was to build the tables, rather it was the structure to hide them from view that came first.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Lou Castle said:


> And to bring this back on topic. Can anyone tell me why so many people have their table equipment indoors while the rest of their training equipment, window jumps, high jumps, A–frames, etc. are outdoors? I know one person who uses a table who's stated (to the effect) that after he first saw table work, as soon as he got home the first thing he did was to erect a building to house his tables. He didn't say that the first thing he did was to build the tables, rather it was the structure to hide them from view that came first.


my understanding is to add the pressure of being in an enclosed space.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Chris Michalek said:


> my understanding is to add the pressure of being in an enclosed space.


None of the enclosures that we've seen in the presented videos are small. I don't think that dogs feed _"add[ed] pressure"_ from being in a room that's as large as a garage or bigger. 

If this was the case, wouldn't the tables that are in the open be less effective? 

And finally, since many dogs feel more comfortable, not less, in enclosed spaces (crates, caves etc,) wouldn't it have the effect of _lessening _the pressure?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

*Mr Rogers Neighborhood*



Lou Castle said:


> And to bring this back on topic. Can anyone tell me why so many people have their table equipment indoors while the rest of their training equipment, window jumps, high jumps, A–frames, etc. are outdoors? I know one person who uses a table who's stated (to the effect) that after he first saw table work, as soon as he got home the first thing he did was to erect a building to house his tables. He didn't say that the first thing he did was to build the tables, rather it was the structure to hide them from view that came first.



There aren't enough people using tables to make an accurate
statement about where they keep them. The three different people I know who do table training, all kept theirs outside.
The "one person" you know, is hardly a representative sample.
I'd conclude that building a structure first was more for protection then to hide them from view. The time and money involved in building a proper table is significant.
Why wouldn't you want to protect it?

On the other hand, a lot would depend on where you live
and who your neighbors are? Lots of PETA nut bags who
are anti prong and anti remote trainers. I can't imagine their reaction to bite work of any kind much less while the dog is
chained to a table.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I know 4 clubs with tables, and all are outdoors.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

*Re: Mr Rogers Neighborhood*



Thomas Barriano said:


> There aren't enough people using tables to make an accurate statement about where they keep them.


I didn't make a statement. I asked a question. 



Thomas Barriano said:


> The "one person" you know, is hardly a representative sample.


You have no idea of how many people I know who uses tables. 



Thomas Barriano said:


> I'd conclude that building a structure first was more for protection then to hide them from view.


Interesting that you bring up the topic of _"hid[ing] them from view. _ Why would anyone want to do that? 

I think this _"protection"_ theory is off base because, as I said, they have other equipment outside, exposed to the elements. A few coats of paint is all that protects most wood structures like the other training equipment from the elements. Why would a table need more than that? 



Thomas Barriano said:


> The time and money involved in building a proper table is significant. Why wouldn't you want to protect it?


It seems that it's no more or less _"time and money"_ than in building the rest of the equipment used in confidence (agility) work. Why would the rest of it be outdoors but only the table is indoors? 



Thomas Barriano said:


> On the other hand, a lot would depend on where you live and who your neighbors are? Lots of PETA nut bags who are anti prong and anti remote trainers. I can't imagine their reaction to bite work of any kind much less while the dog is chained to a table.


And yet MOST bite work is done outdoors. It would seem that if the fear was of _"PETA nutbags"_ seeing it, then MOST bitework involving the tools you mention, prongs and Ecollars, would be done indoors. Yet this is NOT the case. 

It seems that the only piece of equipment that is built and kept indoors regularly is the table, and that's only by some trainers who use them.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

*Re: Mr Rogers Neighborhood*

the tables I have seen in AZ are in small enclosed places. When we worked my dog earlier this week, we worked inside a garage with the table in the corner.

Maybe the elements have something to do with it. tables in the AZ sun won't last much more than a year.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Ours are outside.

Still no one has commented on the retrieve table.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Chris Michalek said:


> the tables I have seen in AZ are in small enclosed places. When we worked my dog earlier this week, we worked inside a garage with the table in the corner.


Do you think that a dog is _"pressured"_ because he's in a garage rather than outdoors? 



Chris Michalek said:


> Maybe the elements have something to do with it. tables in the AZ sun won't last much more than a year.


You keep missing a key element of my question. I wrote,


> Can anyone tell me why so many people have their table equipment indoors *while the rest of their training equipment, window jumps, high jumps, A–frames, etc. are outdoors? * [Emphasis added]


If "protection from the elements" was the issue then they'd have ALL their equipment indoors. I'm talking about people who have all (or most) of their other equipment outdoors, but the table are indoors.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

*Re: Mr Rogers Neighborhood*



Lou Castle said:


> I didn't make a statement. I asked a question.
> 
> >I never said "you" made a statement
> 
> ...


>Nope, most training tables I've worked with are left >outdoors and most of the people I know doing agility
>have indoor training facilities


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Jerry Lyda said:


> Ours are outside.
> 
> Still no one has commented on the retrieve table.


Jerry,

I know about two local clubs that have retrieve tables they use
to teach article indication (such platz)


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

*Missed it by "that much"*



Thomas Barriano said:


> >Nope, most training tables I've worked with are left >outdoors and most of the people I know doing agility
> >have indoor training facilities


Thanks for your input but you too, seem to have missed my question.


> Can anyone tell me why so many people have their table equipment indoors *while the rest of their training equipment, window jumps, high jumps, A–frames, etc. are outdoors? * [Emphasis added]


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

*Re: Missed it by "that much"*



Lou Castle said:


> Thanks for your input but you too, seem to have missed my question.


I can't answer the question to your satisfaction because in my experience your statement "that most people have their tables
indoors" is inaccurate. The only time I did table work indoors was at a seminar and the training tables were brought in. All the other times the work was done outdoors where the tables
were normally kept


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

*Re: Missed it by "that much"*

For some reason, in his post #56, Thomas placed most of his comments inside a quotation box that contained a statement from me. I thought he was just quoting me so I passed it by and went to what looked like, at first glance, the only new statement in that post. I just took another look and found his comments inside that quotation box. I'll address them now. 

Earlier Thomas wrote,


> There aren't enough people using tables to make an accurate statement about where they keep them.


And I responded


> I didn't make a statement. I asked a question.


Thomas now writes,


> >I never said "you" made a statement


My question is simple. I want to know what people think is the motivation behind some who use tables keeping them indoors while they leave the rest of their equipment outdoors. You brought up the issue of _"hiding"_ the tables. 

Earlier Thomas wrote,


> The "one person" you know, is hardly a representative sample.


And I responded


> You have no idea of how many people I know who uses tables.


Thomas now writes,


> >you wrote: "I know one person who uses a table who's stated (to the effect)...."


Here's the full quote.


> I know one person who uses a table who's stated (to the effect) that after he first saw table work, as soon as he got home the first thing he did was to erect a building to house his tables. He didn't say that the first thing he did was to build the tables, rather it was the structure to hide them from view that came first.


He's the only one who *made the statement I cited. * He's hardly the only person that I know who uses tables. 

Earlier I wrote,


> Interesting that you bring up the topic of "hid[ing] them from view. Why would anyone want to do that?
> 
> I think this "protection" theory is off base because, as I said, they have other equipment outside, exposed to the elements. A few coats of paint is all that protects most wood structures like the other training equipment from the elements. Why would a table need more than that?


Thomas now writes,


> >A properly built training table is more then wood. There
> >are (or should be) chains and swivels etc. which can rust


It's easy to purchase _"chains and swivels"_ that are made of stainless or galvanized steel that will last decades if left outside. 

Many A–frames have hinges that can rust. Many retrieve tables have cables and chains that can rust. I'm sure that many of these are indoors but I'd bet that many if not most of them left outdoors. So my question remains. 

Earlier I wrote,


> It seems that it's no more or less "time and money" than in building the rest of the equipment used in confidence (agility) work. Why would the rest of it be outdoors but only the table is indoors?


Thomas now writes,


> >Most agility equipment I know about is indoors. Very
> >little is left out in the elements.


I think you're thinking about equipment that used in agility competitions. I'm referring to equipment that are used in obstacles courses (some call then confidence or agility courses, hence my reference to both terms). I mentioned a couple of them previously. _"window jumps, high jumps, A–frames, etc."_ 

Also on the list are thing are such as catwalks, steel barrels set on end (also subject to rusting), jumps made by putting three steel barrels on the bottom, two on top of them and one on top of the two (also subject to rusting), tunnels made by joining steel barrels together and more. Lots of people use 55 gallon drums for some of these obstacles and they certainly rust if left unprotected. They're also heavy to move around so many people build them in place, paint them and leave them. 

And again, I'm referring to people who leave their other equipment outdoors, but place the table indoors. 

Earlier I wrote,


> And yet MOST bite work is done outdoors. It would seem that if the fear was of "PETA nutbags" seeing it, then MOST bitework involving the tools you mention, prongs and Ecollars, would be done indoors. Yet this is NOT the case.


Thomas now writes,


> >red herring


Let's stick to dogs. I don't know anything about training fish no matter what color they are! lol

Thomas now writes,


> It's a lot easier to go to an isolated outdoor
> > area for bite work, then it is to transport a training table
> >weighing a couple of hundred pounds.


Most trainers that I know don't go to _"an isolated outdoor area for bite work."_ They train on their own training fields that are NOT isolated outdoor areas. I know of people who do this who have their tables indoors while the rest of their obstacle course equipment is outdoors.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote:
> Jeff if you ask around (not that you would, that would be beneath you) Lucillano Oliva does a pretty good job training bitework, table or ground. I know there are quite a few people that come from back east, the midwest and as far up as Alaska, that come to learn and have their dogs worked on the table. But who am I to tell the all knowing Jeff anything???
> 
> Ok, well, nice ego. I guess you have it all figured out. So how many dogs have you trained on the table ?? How many people have you seen work a dog on the table ?? How many dogs have YOU worked on a table ??
> ...


Jeff I know your being a dick because your dog sucked at training and the trial is looming ever closer. Buko gave you the finger again? Quit taking it out on the board. When did I ever imply "I" worked a dog or trained a dog on the table. I have a trainer that handles that. I watch. Don't be such a tard and act like you didn't get that the first time I wrote it. Quit making yourself feel better by trying to make me look stupid or inept. 

I have seen dogs go from the ground, to the table and back to the ground numerous times, with a marked improvement in performance, right before my and the rest of the clubs eyes. So why would I not believe it works? 

Damage, why would there be damage? The dogs are shown in a more controled fasion, what is expected, repeated and when it looks like the dog understands where to bite, how to bite, what to bite correctly, when to bark, how to bark, it is set on the ground and they do it correctly on the ground. It's not a magic table, that only gets results while the dog is on it. If the dogs didn't perform as expected off the table, what would be the point? 

What I don't understand is the aversion so many have twords, something they haven't even seen. If you do fine doing things your way, good, keep on keepin' on. But why bash another method that gets results for someone else?

I had some trepidation about the table, before I had my dog, just from reading this kind of negative stuff myself. Fortunatly, I got to see for myself, it works. My dog is now 3 and not showing any signs of damage, he loves the table. I don't know why or how but it seemed to bring more out of my dog and once that was out, he brought it to the ground too. 

I won't continue to argue with those who haven't seen, that want to tell me I couldn't have seen it.

PS Jeff, YOUR gay, it's not Schutzhund, it's your own gayness you smell.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Thomas Barriano said:


> I can't answer the question to your satisfaction because in my experience your statement "that *most people *have their tables
> indoors" is inaccurate. [Emphasis added]


Since I've NEVER made that statement, the only inaccuracy here is in your ability to quote me. What I HAVE SAID is this,


> Can anyone tell me why *so many people *have their table equipment indoors while the rest of their training equipment, window jumps, high jumps, A–frames, etc. are outdoors?


And this,


> I want to know what people think is the motivation behind *some who use tables * keeping them indoors while they leave the rest of their equipment (of this kind such as obstacles) outdoors.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Lou, how could those who use tables outside, be expected to answer for those who have them inside? My guess was to get away from the ellements. Not for the equipments sake but the people working dogs can stay out of the sun, wind, heat, cold, snow. Hard to build a place big enough for a whole field but a couple tables...why not?

The club I work with have both tables outside and on the side of the field, closest to the road. Nothing to hide.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Various videos, different tables, techniques, dogs, inside and outside, etc etc...........


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcdlm0hlQ1E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDHV5FL3F6Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAklpoCvif0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8luCUf6_mo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRejdQh5ZPE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qeOVEJvcPEQ (BOX)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQeukHCJC9g (RETREIVE)


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Jeff I know your being a dick because your dog sucked at training and the trial is looming ever closer. Buko gave you the finger again? Quit taking it out on the board. When did I ever imply "I" worked a dog or trained a dog on the table. I have a trainer that handles that. I watch. Don't be such a tard and act like you didn't get that the first time I wrote it. Quit making yourself feel better by trying to make me look stupid or inept.

Once again, the obvious shot at the dog, and then the "how can you blame me for not knowing what I am looking at, yet running my suck like I do" excuse. "I have a trainer that handles that" LOL That is why you should keep quiet. You know **** all, and contribute to the downfall of dog sports.

As far as Buko goes, he and I are the best of buds. Trialing is fun, trialing with Buko is an exercise in patience.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: My dog is now 3 and not showing any signs of damage, he loves the table. I don't know why or how but it seemed to bring more out of my dog and once that was out, he brought it to the ground too. 

Yet your dog does................what is it that he is trained to do again ?? I seem to remember him being this clunk biting a chick and ignoring you. 

I tell you what, since you like to make fun of Buko so much, you put up your best video of your dog and I will put up one of Buko.

I would be more than glad to embarrass the **** out of you. More people than you have just thought that Buko was an untrained ass of a dog. They shut up as well.

So, post a video of some OB and whatever bitework you want to do, other than carjacking, as that means **** all.

However, show us your call off, your face attack with accessories, your flee attack. I will be more than glad to show you how pathetic your dog is, and where the "table" work has ****ed him. 

HA HA


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Jeff, your still a ***. I don't need to know how the table works, work dogs on one, to see success when it happens. Who the hell are you to say I can't voice my opinion on it? I don't know how to build a motor either but I have watched others do it and can say, they ran like a top. What's the difference? People here are saying the opposite without any first hand experience. At least I and my dog have experienced the table, more than I can say for you. You probably saw some back woods dipshit on youtube and now know it all right? It's all bad. As if your word is the last say. STFU and get over your Nick Nolte looking self.

And your list of titled dogs are....shit I'll settle for dogs you bred, trained by someone else.

I'm on my first sport dog. You bred how many litters of Rotts, been doing this how many years and still have what to show for it? How old is Buko now? Why you want another dog like him, I'll never know when you can't even get what you want out of the first one. More dog than you can handle and you can't give up before the life runs out of this one? Oh I know, you can't hear/see the truth through the sound of your own awesomeness.

I never said Buko was untrained, I have seen some of your video, still if you can't get the results you want "that title" a "passing score" since "sport dog" is all your interested in, your a failure as a team. That's sports, you win or you lose. Your Mr Mondio Ring, put up or shut up, until then, your just another nobody the same as the rest of us without a title on our dogs. So keep talking down to those without titles, I'm sure others have already passed your crusty ass, cause you've been talking shit on dogboards for years.

I on the other hand, can give 2 shits if I get a title on my dog, I do this shit for fun, not to make myself feel big, special or make $ as a breeder/trainer. It wouldn't matter if I had a PSA3 on my dog anyway. It's just PSA bullshit, not Mondio.

Get a clue and get a life, just because you aren't in the "know" or use a training tool, doesn't make it non existant or a bullshit gimick. You don't even train for the same shit, you don't care for grips, you don't need civil, you play a game, when others are trying to actually employ dogs to do a "JOB". Oh wait, you even talk shit and bash Police dogs, they are the shitters who can't make it in sport...riiight! You win, I can't argue with that.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

BTW, I'm in no way shape or form making fun of Buko, he's only a product of your training, your the one I'm poking fun at, not the dog. I'm willing to bet a more capable handler could get the results you seek.


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