# Side & Back Transport Techniques



## Nicole Lit

We have not started on the back transport yet (and our SchH 1 side transport wasn't too pretty in trial as we had only done it a few times before trial day :-o) so is anyone interested in participating in a discussion on favorite methods used to teach/fine tune the side & back transport?

Here's a quick rundown on how we introduced side transport (I think this is a common way?):

In position (Helper, Dog, Handler) say "transport" - dog looks to helper, helper turns dog gets a bite. From there, moving a step forward, same thing, etc etc onwards. 

What do you all do in training for these two excercises?


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## Bob Scott

Sounds good!
The side transport can create some conflict in the dog. "Who do I look at"? 
It rarely takes long to figure out and a good dog wont take it's eyes off the helper after it takes a couple of cheap shot when it's looking at the handler, if needed. 
That usually comes later when the movement (foosing) begins.


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## Nicole Lit

Thanks Bob, it is working well thus far - one thing I've noticed starting to happen is if the helper presents the sleeve_ while_ turning (presenting the sleeve too early before coming directly in front of the dog and then presenting) it is starting to encourage her to crab around the helper. What I am thinking to help prevent this from going further/discouraging the crabbing habit that is forming is to perhaps have the helper remain neutral while turning in to face the dog and _then_ presenting the threat for the bite instead of during the turning in...would that make sense to do? What I'm thinking is that if the dog continues to get the bite when it is presented during the turn (and then she turns in that left direction for the bite), it is only "rewarding" her in an undesired position.

I just noticed I used "what I am thinking" to start a sentence twice in a row...maybe I shouldn't be thinking as much!


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## Thomas Barriano

Nicole Lit said:


> Thanks Bob, it is working well thus far - one thing I've noticed starting to happen is if the helper presents the sleeve_ while_ turning (presenting the sleeve too early before coming directly in front of the dog and then presenting) it is starting to encourage her to crab around the helper. What I am thinking to help prevent this from going further/discouraging the crabbing habit that is forming is to perhaps have the helper remain neutral while turning in to face the dog and _then_ presenting the threat for the bite instead of during the turning in...would that make sense to do? What I'm thinking is that if the dog continues to get the bite when it is presented during the turn (and then she turns in that left direction for the bite), it is only "rewarding" her in an undesired position.
> 
> I just noticed I used "what I am thinking" to start a sentence twice in a row...maybe I shouldn't be thinking as much!


Nicole,

Have the decoy turn SLOWLY in front of the dog. Don't give the bite until YOU mark the behavior with a YES when the dog and decoy are face to face. I would NOT have started giving bites right away. I would have done more heeling before the reward. I'd also put a tab on a prong collar and let the decoy pop the dog towards him for attention. You get out of the picture ASAP You're heeling along and you drop back a step or two as the dog/decoy continue. You say HALT
the decoy stops waits a sec or two and turns in front SLOWLY You say YES the decoy gives a bite. Rinse and repeat. Add a "judge" to the picture.

For the back transport. I like a little body contact with my dog so they can concentrate on the decoy and still know where I'm at. It's a lot like how you can teach the Mondio Ring Defense of handler exercise


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## James Downey

thomas barriano said:


> nicole,
> 
> have the decoy turn slowly in front of the dog. Don't give the bite until you mark the behavior with a yes when the dog and decoy are face to face. I would not have started giving bites right away. I would have done more heeling before the reward. I'd also put a tab on a prong collar and let the decoy pop the dog towards him for attention. You get out of the picture asap you're heeling along and you drop back a step or two as the dog/decoy continue. You say halt
> the decoy stops waits a sec or two and turns in front slowly you say yes the decoy gives a bite. Rinse and repeat. Add a "judge" to the picture.
> 
> For the back transport. I like a little body contact with my dog so they can concentrate on the decoy and still know where i'm at. It's a lot like how you can teach the mondio ring defense of handler exercise


 
ditto!


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## Nicole Lit

Thanks for the input Thomas 



Thomas Barriano said:


> Nicole,
> 
> I'd also put a tab on a prong collar and let the decoy pop the dog towards him for attention.


She has good attention to the decoy but just turning in too much when fussing forward. If the decoy pops her on a prong she will light up for a fight as she is not keen on accepting corrections from others (not always a good thing from what some say but she is who she is!). 



> have the decoy turn slowly in front of the dog. Don't give the bite until you mark the behavior with a yes when the dog and decoy are face to face.


This is what I was wondering about, so this helps to clarify - thank you!

I am the first one to admit that we did go too quickly with this exercise and it is one of the things I was most concerned about going into our SchH 1 this past fall (she wanted to return to the front guarding position instead of remaining at the side - simply put, I think she really did not understand what was expected of her since we really did not work on it much prior to trial day). The other involved leaving my side from the call out of the blind to setting up for the escape...but that I think I may start another thread on! Control work in protection is our biggest challenge and the opportunity to do protection work on a regular and frequent basis makes it all the more difficult!



> It's a lot like how you can teach the Mondio Ring Defense of handler exercise


Would be interested in hearing more about this - I am a complete noob to modio although it looks fabulous!


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## Steve Strom

> She has good attention to the decoy but just turning in too much when fussing forward. If the decoy pops her on a prong she will light up for a fight as she is not keen on accepting corrections from others (not always a good thing from what some say but she is who she is!).


Hey Nicole, I've always had a question about this. How much does the skill of the helper giving the correction have to do with it? How much did he keep the dogs focus on his face and block the view of him getting the line and kinda correcting from behind the sleeve. Would you have a dog like yours being corrected not concerned about exactly who it was?


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## Keith Jenkins

Plenty of subtle things a helper can do to get a dog's attention without the need for a collar pop.


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## Edward Egan

We are learning this as well. With my dog his heads on a swivel at times. My helper gives him a hiss and that usually get's his attention. If not he jumps away, like trying to escape. He did try and whack him with the stick, but that turned into aggression. I'm also giving vebal praise when he's attentive to the helper. Also using the "Transport" command instead of foos. He's learning, just takes time.


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## Mario Fernandez

A nice technique we were shown several years ago for starting the back transport is giving the dog a little knee bump along with a word association, the bite command. 
This can and should be done as a puppy and just heeling straight for a drive object, weather be a ball, toy, bite wedge. Few step a knee bump and the idea is to having the dog heeling right next to you with out the focus of the handler it is on its drive object. 

Dogs will pick this up fairly quickly once they know they will be getting what they want, a bite and heel with the handler in the back transport. For older dogs, it is recommended have two people giving you a hand so the handler doesn’t have to do anything but just give commands. The first long line is one on a leather collar and the other line on a either a pinch or fur saver depending on the dog. The line on the leather is only purpose is to control the dog, so it doesn’t break and go after the helper, the other line should the dog forge with the receives a couple of quick pops consecutively, don’t go overboard and give monster corrections, you want the dog to mess up so they get the small corrections, it is like a fly that won’t go a way and is just nagging and nagging. 

I seen this work with several dogs, it is just another way to teach it. I saw a 7yr old hard head rottie pick this up in less than 5 sessions. 

Sorry if it is a little confusing, my computer froze up two times and had to rewrite it…I’ll see if I can find some video for this so you can get a better understanding and see it visual. 

Regards,

Mario


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## Mike Scheiber

Mario Fernandez said:


> A nice technique we were shown several years ago for starting the back transport is giving the dog a little knee bump along with a word association, the bite command.
> This can and should be done as a puppy and just heeling straight for a drive object, weather be a ball, toy, bite wedge. Few step a knee bump and the idea is to having the dog heeling right next to you with out the focus of the handler it is on its drive object.
> 
> Dogs will pick this up fairly quickly once they know they will be getting what they want, a bite and heel with the handler in the back transport. For older dogs, it is recommended have two people giving you a hand so the handler doesn’t have to do anything but just give commands. The first long line is one on a leather collar and the other line on a either a pinch or fur saver depending on the dog. The line on the leather is only purpose is to control the dog, so it doesn’t break and go after the helper, the other line should the dog forge with the receives a couple of quick pops consecutively, don’t go overboard and give monster corrections, you want the dog to mess up so they get the small corrections, it is like a fly that won’t go a way and is just nagging and nagging.
> 
> I seen this work with several dogs, it is just another way to teach it. I saw a 7yr old hard head rottie pick this up in less than 5 sessions.
> 
> Sorry if it is a little confusing, my computer froze up two times and had to rewrite it…I’ll see if I can find some video for this so you can get a better understanding and see it visual.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Mario


Im going to be reworking my back transport I'd like to have a look if you find some video.
Thanks


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## Bob Scott

If the dog is getting the bite when it's out of position, (wrapped around the handler OR the helper) your definately rewarding that incorrect position. As for giving the dog a pop. I didn't mean a collar correction. I was referring to the helper poking the dog with the stick. That's where the dog should be focused.
Again, ALL have to be in correct position before the dog gets rewarded. Anything less and you just teaching bad habits.
That's probably the training director or the helpers job to see that unless the handler and the helper are both pretty expierienced and have a definate plan worked out. They should anyway!


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## Nicole Lit

Would love to see some video if you are able.

We have some very valuable mentors come up a couple times a year to aid us with many aspects in protection (and the other phases as well) but it can be limiting throughout the year to work on elements when we are relatively scarce in terms of helper availability and level of expertise.

Jax does not have much of an issue with needing any encouragement to look at the helper, albeit we continue to work on decreasing her distraction towards me as I approach during the H&B (she can be handler sensitive to me though she does quickly recover from a handler correction when we are working) but for the transport it has not been an issue thus far. 



> Would you have a dog like yours being corrected not concerned about exactly who it was?


There are very few people I would allow to correct her - perhaps only one person from our club whom I would allow to do so but we have not been doing helper work with him at this time due to schedules and such. Our other helper is relatively new to helper work (he is able and willing to increase his knowledge and skill) and we work well together overall but again, the level of expertise is a challenge as we continue to try to expand our working knowledge and ability. 

I think the side transport will come along nicely with the use of the turn into and face the dog before presentation of the sleeve for a bite (to help reduce/eliminate the crabbing). 

The back transport I think will be an issue to train, but if we could do alot of repitition using a more reward rather than correction based system (as I said, I am reluctant to allow anyone to administer a correction on her due to the possibility of her reactivity towards whomever is giving it). Another reason being that corrections escalate her more - she already is in a high drive state, so pushing that up higher will result in a "me no think" mode I think. 

Maybe I worry too much; with the right person (the right expertise and "presence" I trust would not be an issue) I would be fine with more traditional methods so to speak but WTH, I'll say it - she can be quick to react first and then think later (nervy? sharp? reactive? bitchy?). I've seen some nice defense come out of her when the right person applied it correctly (and then not so nice when applied incorrectly) but it's a real challenge to train her because on the other hand she can also be "handler soft" so to speak. Finding that balance is not easy! 

I've given up on trying to overanalyze her...is she "soft", "nervy", "sharp", "reactive", "sensitive", "low threshold" etc etc. I would say yes to the low threshold, and a huge yes to high drive so we are trying to work in a calm manner. I'm really quite happy with our OB and tracking to date, but understanding her in protectionand the best way to proceed continues to elude me! Sometimes I think I "get it" and other times.....Am I the only one???!!!

Thanks thus far to everyone who has taken the time to cotnribute a resposne and their suggestions and ideas. I appreciate it very much :smile:


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## Nicole Lit

Bob Scott said:


> If the dog is getting the bite when it's out of position, (wrapped around the handler OR the helper) your definately rewarding that incorrect position. As for giving the dog a pop. I didn't mean a collar correction. I was referring to the helper poking the dog with the stick. That's where the dog should be focused.
> Again, ALL have to be in correct position before the dog gets rewarded. Anything less and you just teaching bad habits.
> That's probably the training director or the helpers job to see that unless the handler and the helper are both pretty expierienced and have a definate plan worked out. They should anyway!


I agree with you Bob. And yes, the pop with the stick I can see as something we can do (and have done for example in the H&B).

We are a relatively small club - no training director and because we have limited expertise, I have been formulating training goals and working plans and trying to learn as much as I can with the protection phase and its associated training techniques etc. We have some invaluable mentors who have helped us tremendously in all 3 phases but as they are 8 hours away, our contact is limited to a few times a year during seminars (or if we travel down) etc. 

So I will be a thorn in everyone's side here for some time to come! \\/


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## Bob Scott

Just remember that on a web site your going to get many, often times conflicting ideas on dog training. You have to decide what works for you and your dog. :wink:


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## James Downey

Edward Egan said:


> We are learning this as well. With my dog his heads on a swivel at times. My helper gives him a hiss and that usually get's his attention. If not he jumps away, like trying to escape. He did try and whack him with the stick, but that turned into aggression. I'm also giving vebal praise when he's attentive to the helper. Also using the "Transport" command instead of foos. He's learning, just takes time.


As a helper I have hissed, hit, ran, jumped...and all that jazz to get a dogs attention when they look around. This last summer, I had a thought. Theres a reason a dog does anything it does. I started to think why is the dog looking around? And most of the time it's because of the handler. but whatever it is, I have found all that jazz from the helper is useless unless you elimate why the dog is looking around. 

We did something with a dog in the blind this summer that looked around. We made him start over. no corrections, no pops, ho hisses, no hits. The handler also stopped correcting for inattention in heeling and all exercises. We just made him start over. A simple no, and made him begin again. The looky loos in a few months went away. 

Just a thought.


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## Nicole Lit

Bob Scott said:


> Just remember that on a web site your going to get many, often times conflicting ideas on dog training. You have to decide what works for you and your dog. :wink:


Oh yes - absolutely! Love hearing all the different ideas but indeed knowing one's dog is a critical ingredient to knowing what tools to use in training!


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## Rick Mattox

Never let your dog get a bite when it is out of position. While your heeling in a straight line and the heeling looks good halt there. Everyone stops. Tell your dog to sit and have the helper walk forward a few steps out of reach. Have helper turn slowly. Helper stops for a moment and returns to the dog and if the dog stays clean gives the bite. Your dog gets the bite from the front possiton as it is used to getting. This will keep the dog from crabbing and since the helper isn't turning into the dog at a close range the dog won't anticipate the bite there. This will also make it less likely that the dog will jump into the arm during trial day when the helper steps around to the judges side.

Rick


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## Nicole Lit

Thanks Rick  Makes sense and I like the moving forward and coming back dircetly in front approach.


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