# Should I use an e-collar?



## Kammie Lombardi

Hello...I recently joined the group and I'm hoping to learn how to break some consistent behavior from my almost 8 mos. old pup (working lines - Czech and East German). Addi is very mouthy and countless times per day, she butts her head into me, nips, bites, shows her teeth, growls, etc. She never puts a bite on where she sinks teeth in, and is careful not to, actually she'll mouth my arms in a full bite but won;t clamp down.

I've tried a pinch collar, but that makes her worse. I do stand up to her, pin her to the ground. That makes her worse. I haven't tried an e-collar, but I think not having to grab her mouth and clamp it shut would save me some arm bruises and scratches. I have worked with trainers but the e-collar is the only thing I haven't tried. If that is the way I should go, any suggestions on types?

Thanks in advance...Kammie


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## Mike Scheiber

Don't use a collar for this!!! you need to grab the little shit let it know who is running the show NOW I aint talking about beating the hell out of it but taking charge of the situation once the dog knows its next breath is in your hands I think you will have a much more pleasant relationship and a more guideable dog
Why do you have a dog of this caliber if you don't have a clue how to handle it.


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## Guest

I Agree, don't use the collar for what the back side of your hand can do and FIRM! Let em know your the boss and your not playing!


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## Kammie Lombardi

Thanks for the quick reply. If I had known what I was getting into I would have never done it. My vet recommended the breeder....I do feel that I wasn't advised of what was ahead, but apparently I didn;t do enough background research either. So, doing all I can to responsibly try and handle it.


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## Dave Colborn

What are you using the dog for? Personal protection? Sport? or just a house dog?


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## Guest

What have the trainers you have been working with been advising you to do? Please be very specific. 

What is their assessment of the dog?

What are their credentials like? 

You do not need to smack your dog around, choke it or shock it to communicate leadership.


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## Timothy Saunders

Kammie Lombardi said:


> Hello...I recently joined the group and I'm hoping to learn how to break some consistent behavior from my almost 8 mos. old pup (working lines - Czech and East German). Addi is very mouthy and countless times per day, she butts her head into me, nips, bites, shows her teeth, growls, etc. She never puts a bite on where she sinks teeth in, and is careful not to, actually she'll mouth my arms in a full bite but won;t clamp down.
> 
> I've tried a pinch collar, but that makes her worse. I do stand up to her, pin her to the ground. That makes her worse. I haven't tried an e-collar, but I think not having to grab her mouth and clamp it shut would save me some arm bruises and scratches. I have worked with trainers but the e-collar is the only thing I haven't tried. If that is the way I should go, any suggestions on types?
> 
> Thanks in advance...Kammie


 no e collar . you are using methods that activate the dog . buy a nylon choke and choke his little ass. don't choke to long . you will put him in a survival mode , if you do that you wil have to choke him until he calms down. no air no fight:twisted:


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## Al Curbow

I asked in the other thread: Have you done any obedience with the pup? 

It's a subjective thing, might be a fun mouthy pup to one person and an out of control alligator to another. I would find a trainer before i started choking the pup out etc. Kind of hard to give advice without seeing the behaviour


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## ann schnerre

i agree w/al: it's impossible to say what to do w/o seeing the pup in action. 

my first thought was: i'd bust the little booger right in the head for this nonsense, but upon consideration, decided that it truly depends on the dog, you, kammie, and what's really happening between you. 

the best thing (as said in your intro thread) to do, IMO, is find a good Sch &/or ringsport club close enough to get to at least once/wk. ask your breeder, or on here for recommendations. those ppl will have experience in working dogs bred like this and will be able to help more than an internet chat forum.

again w/al: are you doing any obedience work w/her? 

this won't be impossible to get a handle on by any means, but now is the time to do it! if you'll put in the work, you'll end up with a completely awesome dog


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## Lou Castle

I'm probably the biggest proponent of Ecollars on this forum but I don't recommend that you use one for this issue. 

I also don't recommend that you smack the dog or use any other kind of violence, at least not at this stage. 

I DO recommend that you take a look at  THIS ARTICLE  And follow the advice in it.


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## Zakia Days

Damn, Tim!!! Sounds a bit HARSH for an 8mos. old pup.[-X I'm sure there's a less harsh equally effective method for this young pup. Definitely see a professional trainer for this one. Good luck.



Timothy Saunders said:


> no e collar . you are using methods that activate the dog . buy a nylon choke and choke his little ass. don't choke to long . you will put him in a survival mode , if you do that you wil have to choke him until he calms down. no air no fight:twisted:


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## susan tuck

I'm sorry, but I'm not clear even after reading your initial introduction thread. What sport or work is this pup in training for?


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## Nancy Jocoy

This is a working dog in a pet home.
http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f20/hello-ri-working-dog-lines-pet-home-12815/

I think it would be cruel to the dog NOT to find some activity to engage in with some people used to working with dogs of this type. 

Sounds like a nice dog.


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## susan tuck

I would like to see answers to the questions Vin Chu asked:

"What have the trainers you have been working with been advising you to do? Please be very specific. 

What is their assessment of the dog?

What are their credentials like?" 

I agree with Nancy. Unless a pup is very low drive, these dogs aren't really meant to be soley pets, they need phyical and mental challenges or they will invent their own and challenge you, essentially making you her bitch. A tired dog is a good dog, but at this age, you must be careful of their joints, so my best suggestion is to get involved in a sport, join a club where members are experienced with dogs like yours.


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## Mike Scheiber

Zakia Days said:


> Damn, Tim!!! Sounds a bit HARSH for an 8mos. old pup.[-X I'm sure there's a less harsh equally effective method for this young pup. Definitely see a professional trainer for this one. Good luck.


I agree 



Mike Scheiber said:


> Don't use a collar for this!!! you need to grab the little shit let it know who is running the show NOW I aint talking about beating the hell out of it but taking charge of the situation once the dog knows its next breath is in your hands I think you will have a much more pleasant relationship and a more guideable dog.


What I mean by my post above with out using a bunch of psycho-babble crap is you need to take the alpha role/take charge You can prolly go to a Schutzhund club or ring club for this not some dog behaviourist this isn't rocket science but if you don't know this stuff it might confusing.
I might add that what Tim described is over the top but it would prolly work it's a old school method that has worked for years before many of advanced methods came about.
This is a dog board many on here don't know there ass from a hole in the ground. 
I nor any one else have seen your dog take this into your consideration good luck.


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## Thomas Barriano

Kammie Lombardi said:


> Hello...I recently joined the group and I'm hoping to learn how to break some consistent behavior from my almost 8 mos. old pup (working lines - Czech and East German). Addi is very mouthy and countless times per day, she butts her head into me, nips, bites, shows her teeth, growls, etc. She never puts a bite on where she sinks teeth in, and is careful not to, actually she'll mouth my arms in a full bite but won;t clamp down.
> 
> I've tried a pinch collar, but that makes her worse. I do stand up to her, pin her to the ground. That makes her worse. I haven't tried an e-collar, but I think not having to grab her mouth and clamp it shut would save me some arm bruises and scratches. I have worked with trainers but the e-collar is the only thing I haven't tried. If that is the way I should go, any suggestions on types?
> 
> Thanks in advance...Kammie


Hi Kammie,


The best solution would be to find and join a local Schutzhund club. Where you'll find people experienced with
working line dogs.
In the mean time my take is you have two main problems.
Your dog is bored, she needs something to do. I think she is trying to initiate some play with her pushing and mouthing.
Get a nice tug and start playing with her. The tug is only brought out when you want to play. Don't leave her to play by herself. Establish rules, no biting you or your clothing.
(All this is explained in the Ivan Balabanov DVD's)
Start doing daily obedience. There are lots of DVD's and books and information on the internet available on Clicker training, Operant conditioning or Marker training (different
names for the same thing)

Your second problem is, your dog is trying to find her place
in your pack and you have NOT established yourself as being
the dominant one. You don't need force to establish dominance (e-collars and prongs are not needed) Simple well known techniques like not letting your dog on the couch or bed, Making them wait while you go through the door first etc. When you do obedience you might try using her
daily kibble as a reward. She only eats from your hand, no
free lunch.
It sounds like you have a nice dog, that just needs some structure and rules. If you don't have the time or inclination
to do some kind of REAL training (Schutzhund would be the
best choice for a GSD) then I'd suggest rehoming the dog and replacing her with something a little more low energy.
Best Wishes with what ever you decide


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## Timothy Saunders

Mike Scheiber said:


> I agree
> 
> 
> What I mean by my post above with out using a bunch of psycho-babble crap is you need to take the alpha role/take charge You can prolly go to a Schutzhund club or ring club for this not some dog behaviourist this isn't rocket science but if you don't know this stuff it might confusing.
> I might add that what Tim described is over the top but it would prolly work it's a old school method that has worked for years before many of advanced methods came about.
> This is a dog board many on here don't know there ass from a hole in the ground.
> I nor any one else have seen your dog take this into your consideration good luck.


hello Zakia and Mike. not to harsh or old school. the problem with most handlers is THEY ARE HARSH.Every method requires a certain amount of technique. You can use an ecollar on 1 or 100, prong with all your might or with a quick ***** and a choke very quickly or for30 secs. Mike you did say don't beat the dog but show it who is boss. She stated see has already tried thd Ceasar method. Since it seem that she doesn't have the experience to make the dog feel like his life is in her hands with an other method a small nylon choke will do this. everyone here is right when they say that no one here has evaluated the dog. Since this is true no one can say which method will work in this case or any other. The person asking the questions has to use all the suggestions and try to match it to the problem they are having.


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## Anna Kasho

I have a question. 

Is it really necessary to make an 8mth old brat puppy feel as if her life is in your hands?

Under what circumstances??


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## Carol Boche

Hi Kammie....WELCOME to the board....

Have to say that I agree with MOST everything that is here in your thread. 
I think that I agree with Lou most of all, I have alpha rolled a dog twice....once it worked and the behavior never happened again and the other....well....made everything WORSE and the aggression escalated into a trip to get stitches for me...won't ever do it again. 

Having a working line dog in a pet home is especially challenging...you really need to find something to do with the dog. It may not even be sport work....maybe agility or something. 

Not only do they require enough physical exercise they also require mental exercise as well. 

I am not sure that you can't use marker training to shape the behaviors you DO want and use redirection when she starts being mouthy towards you or your husband. 
Requires patience and dilligence on your part and you need to also give a FIRM but not harsh correction when she seems that she is going to start in. 

You need to establish the boundaries with her....period and you and your husband need to make sure that you both are on the same page with the training.....each of you doing something different will only confuse her. 

Short sessions of obedience throughout the day will help.....always end the training on a good note and do not push her to the point that she is confused, tired or getting mouthy becasue she does not understand what you want. Start with something she knows well and build on that. 

If you must, take her for a run (on soft surfaces since she is so young) or a good game of fetch....basically this will tire her out a bit so that she is more apt to listen to you. 

I see a lot of people get their dogs out and try to go right into obedience work and the dog is clearly too wound up to listen as they should...as she gets older and more mature she should be able to do that....but being a pup she has a short attention span and you need to utilize her being tired and willing to your benefit. 

Also, end the sessions before she does not want to do what you want anymore....even if she is still willing, end it on a positive, put her in her crate......this tends to leave the dog wanting more, so when they come out for the next session they are willing to work with you. 

Not sure this is the way you should go, but I have done this and it works well....not with all dogs though...you have to figure out what works for you and the dog....

You are in a really good place to find new "tools" to use....


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## Dennis Jones

I think a excellent window of training oppurtunity was missed by not establishing the basics,some trainers term "groundwork" during early puppyhood, early on it was much easier to teach my puppy that my hands are NOT equipment or toys. It also taught the puppy and handler communtication skills, ie you learning how to read your dog and your dog learning how to read you. I'll repeat my advice, find a Sch club and get trainer recommedations


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## Michelle Reusser

Not sure why some of you try and make it so damn difficult. The dog needs to be told no in a straitforward manner. NO grey area, if you don't want your dog bitting you, smack the shit out of her and give a stern NO! Doesn't sound like she is wanting to work the dog, so NO reason to be worried about bite inhibition. Finding some trainer may never happen, joining a club is un needed, it is a PET people. I know how much we all hate working dogs as pets but it is a reality. A good ass kicking isn't going to ruin this pup, she sounds like she is quite full of herself and needs to be knocked down a peg or 2, to fit into this household. Better 1-2 good ass kickings than to be nagged to death for life and then nobody is happy. End the biting and rough stuff now before it becomes a life long habit.

This sounds like your common pet person is too worried about screwing the dog up, to make it actually mind. Then you all chime in and confirm her thoughts, "oh don't do that", find someone else to fix your problems (trainer) problem is it's hard to know what a trainer is made of, until the dog is either screwed up or fixed and your minus $$$ (insert amount here). It's like raising a kid, you make rules and then you expect them to be followed. When rules are broken, punishment awaits. Be 100% consistant in whatever method you use and the dog will figure out, what you do and don't want.

About the only thing above I agree with, is not to use an e-collar. You need to be clear YOU are the one ending this behaviour. The e-collar is too impersonal for this. You as the owner/handler can do this yourself, tell the dog no in a harsh voice and use whatever correction you think will end the behaviour once and for all. Obviously, more than you have done up to this date and probably slightly harsher than you want to do, to your baby dog. If that doesn't work, harder next time. So far you have just shown her, it is OK to do it again and again and again. Stop the cycle.

If you were bullying someone you knew daily at work and they kept taking it, would you stop if they finally dotted your eye oneday? You'd say "shit, where did that come from?" If it hurt enough or humiliated you enough, to have your butt whooped in front of everyone, I'd say you wouldn't come back for seconds. Same concept. If your dog is as loveing as you say, she wants to make you happy, most dogs do. It seems harsh but the dog will be much happier when you are much happier with her bahaviour.


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## Carol Boche

I don't think anyone here was telling her to continue babying the dog. We were asked for suggestions so we gave them. 



Not trying to be argumentative here, but she has been told numerous times to smack the shit out of the dog, but given no instruction on what to do if it escalates....probably won't happen, but what if it does...she then posts pics of the damage and we try to explain to her what she should have done????


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## maggie fraser

Kammie Lombardi said:


> Hello...I recently joined the group and I'm hoping to learn how to break some consistent behavior from my almost 8 mos. old pup (working lines - Czech and East German). Addi is very mouthy and countless times per day, she butts her head into me, nips, bites, shows her teeth, growls, etc. She never puts a bite on where she sinks teeth in, and is careful not to, actually she'll mouth my arms in a full bite but won;t clamp down.
> 
> I've tried a pinch collar, but that makes her worse. I do stand up to her, pin her to the ground. That makes her worse. I haven't tried an e-collar, but I think not having to grab her mouth and clamp it shut would save me some arm bruises and scratches. I have worked with trainers but the e-collar is the only thing I haven't tried. If that is the way I should go, any suggestions on types?
> 
> Thanks in advance...Kammie


Do you have/can make the time and the inclination to develop an interest with this dog???

I think that is a question worth answering? It may help folks assist with their advice to you as it can make a good starting point to work from.


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## ann schnerre

i think that kammie's lack of response to the thread she started is a reposnse in and of itself. a true "working dog in a pet home" situation. 

too bad for the dog.


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## Dennis Jones

ann schnerre said:


> i think that kammie's lack of response to the thread she started is a reposnse in and of itself. a true "working dog in a pet home" situation.
> 
> too bad for the dog.


one can hope she is too tired from training to type anything


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## Mo Earle

_"think that kammie's lack of response to the thread she started is a reposnse in and of itself. a true "working dog in a pet home" situation. 

too bad for the dog."

_my thoughts exactly...sadly ....another dog that is more than likely looking at the pound or a new home in the future](*,)


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## Carol Boche

Pretty sad that I thought this was a board of TRAINERS and not people telling others to slap the shit out of their dogs and call it good..........WTH has happened here?


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## Guest

Carol Boche said:


> Pretty sad that I thought this was a board of TRAINERS and not people telling others to slap the shit out of their dogs and call it good..........WTH has happened here?


 
But sometimes, its as simple as that....


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## Mike Scheiber

Carol Boche said:


> Pretty sad that I thought this was a board of TRAINERS and not people telling others to slap the shit out of their dogs and call it good..........WTH has happened here?





Jody Butler said:


> But sometimes, its as simple as that....


And that is a simple fact!!!
This isn't how I would do it but it is the simplest way and it doesn't have to be abusive. How do you think a pup's or young dogs mother takes care of business.
How many times have you heard the stories about the great dogs being returned to the breeder's to much dog.
As I have mentioned before Asko Von Dur Lutter was returned back the his breeder.


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## Carol Boche

Mike Scheiber said:


> And that is a simple fact!!!
> This isn't how I would do it but it is the simplest way and it doesn't have to be abusive. How do you think a pup's or young dogs mother takes care of business.
> How many times have you heard the stories about the great dogs being returned to the breeder's to much dog.
> As I have mentioned before Asko Von Dur Lutter was returned back the his breeder.


It is a fact, I am not saying that there is not a time and a place for it, but how can we be sure that it is what is needed? 
I for one would feel pretty bad for giving advice like this over the net and have the person come back saying that the dog became highly aggressive and caused damage. 

Seeing the dog and seeing WHAT is needed is one thing....but to give advice to smack the dog without seeing just what the dog is doing is not the best......

Did not mean to imply that no one knows what they are doing, but rather maybe think about giving that kind of information without seeing the dog in person......


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## Dennis Jones

I think I would of tried something else before a dope slap on a pup. but I stated before the OP needs to go to the very beginning in training. she has a brat now


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## Mike Scheiber

Carol Boche said:


> It is a fact, I am not saying that there is not a time and a place for it, but how can we be sure that it is what is needed?
> I for one would feel pretty bad for giving advice like this over the net and have the person come back saying that the dog became highly aggressive and caused damage.
> 
> Seeing the dog and seeing WHAT is needed is one thing....but to give advice to smack the dog without seeing just what the dog is doing is not the best......
> 
> Did not mean to imply that no one knows what they are doing, but rather maybe think about giving that kind of information without seeing the dog in person......





Mike Scheiber said:


> This is a dog board many on here don't know there ass from a hole in the ground.
> I nor any one else have seen your dog take this into your consideration good luck.


This was in post 15 I hope she will take this advice.
And I will try and refrain from giving any more. Come the think of it no one listens to any thing I have to say at club why would any one take my advice here.:???:


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## Timothy Saunders

Carol Boche said:


> It is a fact, I am not saying that there is not a time and a place for it, but how can we be sure that it is what is needed?
> I for one would feel pretty bad for giving advice like this over the net and have the person come back saying that the dog became highly aggressive and caused damage.
> 
> Seeing the dog and seeing WHAT is needed is one thing....but to give advice to smack the dog without seeing just what the dog is doing is not the best......
> 
> Did not mean to imply that no one knows what they are doing, but rather maybe think about giving that kind of information without seeing the dog in person......


hello Carol, I agree in theory but if this were the case then we could never give any kind of advice on these forums. Any kind of advice given on the internet could have adverse affects.


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## Carol Boche

Mike Scheiber said:


> This was in post 15 I hope she will take this advice.
> And I will try and refrain from giving any more. Come the think of it no one listens to any thing I have to say at club why would any one take my advice here.:???:


My apologies to you Mike....I still stand on what I said, but I did NOT quote your post to direct it at you....I have always respected you and have lost NONE because of this.....I was trying to say that I agreed with the fact that there may be a time and place for what was recommended.....geesh, I am sorry that looked directed at you.....

As far as the theory goes.....do we need to break it down that far? I mean, we are talking about slapping a dog as a correction, not teaching a dog to sit with treats training or crate training.....not sure they can be compared as far as advice goes. 

Look, I am not intending any of this to be rude or argumentative at all....but I have NEVER seen this kind of advice on here and it takes me a little by surprise that it is being so openly given in the context that it is......


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## Connie Sutherland

Carol Boche said:


> ....but I have NEVER seen this kind of advice on here and it takes me a little by surprise ....



Me too. Big time. :-o


Was there ever even an answer to this?


Al Curbow said:


> I asked in the other thread: Have you done any obedience with the pup?


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## Mike Scheiber

Carol Boche said:


> My apologies to you Mike....I still stand on what I said, but I did NOT quote your post to direct it at you....I have always respected you and have lost NONE because of this.....I was trying to say that I agreed with the fact that there may be a time and place for what was recommended.....geesh, I am sorry that looked directed at you.....
> 
> As far as the theory goes.....do we need to break it down that far? I mean, we are talking about slapping a dog as a correction, not teaching a dog to sit with treats training or crate training.....not sure they can be compared as far as advice goes.
> 
> Look, I am not intending any of this to be rude or argumentative at all....but I have NEVER seen this kind of advice on here and it takes me a little by surprise that it is being so openly given in the context that it is......


No need for apologies I wasn't bothered by any thing you said.
I think many on here including my self think this owner needs to one way or another get this young dogs ATTENTION not correction, it has nothing to do with its training per say but there relationship.
Not every pup ends up in a working home but many end up in the pound this persons pup is a good example of how it happens.
Its good to see them not giving up and I hope all the goofy shit in this thread don't make things seem hopeless.


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## Carol Boche

mike scheiber said:


> i hope all the goofy shit in this thread don't make things seem hopeless.


me too!!!!! :?


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## Bob Scott

WOW!
Slapping a puppy! That makes no sense at all to me. Everyone here knows I'm a huge believer in motivational training but that doesn't mean I won't use a pinch collar, e-collar, physical correction if the dog needs it.
Therin lies the problem. Everyone has a different view on if and when a dog needs it. That's fine. I have no problems with that but slapping a puppy is never an answer.
My suggestion for the op is to find a trainer and see what is going on with the pup. It's way to easy to "correct" a problem over the web. 
99 times out of 100 it's leadership skills that are needed and that has nothing to do with overpowering a puppy OR even training a dog. That's something some people are born with. Those that have the ability to learn what leadership is truely about probably had it to start with, just haven't needed or tapped into it. 
I don't think MOST so called trainers have it. Slapping a puppy around sure wont get you there either. 
JMHO of course! ;-)


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## Guest

Bob Scott said:


> WOW!
> Slapping a puppy! That makes no sense at all to me. Everyone here knows I'm a huge believer in motivational training but that doesn't mean I won't use a pinch collar, e-collar, physical correction if the dog needs it.
> Therin lies the problem. Everyone has a different view on if and when a dog needs it. That's fine. I have no problems with that but slapping a puppy is never an answer.
> My suggestion for the op is to find a trainer and see what is going on with the pup. It's way to easy to "correct" a problem over the web.
> 99 times out of 100 it's leadership skills that are needed and that has nothing to do with overpowering a puppy OR even training a dog. That's something some people are born with. Those that have the ability to learn what leadership is truely about probably had it to start with, just haven't needed or tapped into it.
> I don't think MOST so called trainers have it. Slapping a puppy around sure wont get you there either.
> JMHO of course! ;-)



Good post Bob.


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## Adi Ibrahimbegovic

You want to string an CHOKE an 8 month old puppy, practically still a little bit more than a toddler, who is just being stupid? Hmmm...




Timothy Saunders said:


> no e collar . you are using methods that activate the dog . buy a nylon choke and choke his little ass. don't choke to long . you will put him in a survival mode , if you do that you wil have to choke him until he calms down. no air no fight:twisted:


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## Howard Gaines III

Dr. Buzzy! Yeah now that's the ticket...MY guess is that your dog doesn't respect you or your "corrections." I too owned a dog from lines like this, slow to mature and challenge the CEO! Odd, by establishling the role of a leader; enforce the behavior (make sure that it is taught) and reward for the positives.

Does your dog like being with you or does it just go off on its own? Sometimes a spook can be produced and not much good can come from it. This "looks" like a lack of understanding...

Redirect, correct, reward, then kick some butt. She may end up being a very nice dog but independent in many ways.


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## Anna Kasho

Bob Scott said:


> 99 times out of 100 it's leadership skills that are needed and that has nothing to do with overpowering a puppy OR even training a dog.


THANK YOU Bob!8)=D>

(how come the clapping hands smiley doesn't work?)


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## Michelle Reusser

Slapping a dog that repeatedly bites, is a form of leadership. It says knock that shit off, I won't take that laying down. Could have taken a stern NO at 8 weeks, now we are at 8 months and no, no, boo boo, sit, isn't going to cut it. I told the owner to administer what she saw fit, to the dogs actions. I'm not suggesting a 2x4 upside the head or a boot in it's ass. This woman needs help now, not 6 weeks down the road, when she finally finds a trainer you all approve of. 

Not my first choice on how to do it, but my 8 mo old wouldn't be pulling that shit still at 8 mos. If I brought home an 8 mo old dog behaving like that, it would be zero tollerance from day one, at my house. 

I could say, have a leash on the dog 24/7 and give it a correction but how many people are really going to do that? It will only take one time with the leash off...then what? No correction and your back to square one.

Oh and I don't claim to be a "trainer" we have enough inept experts out there claiming that title. I have a real job and a life away from dogs. My dogs still don't have any behavioural problems, aside from one that likes to chew on his dog house once in awhile...crazy, I know right? :roll: My inept ways still has them turning out fine, minus the behavioural trainer I could be throwing wads of cash at. :-&

Ahhh riiight, it would be PC of me to have her put the dog in a timeout. Gotcha! FeeFee, nose in the corner, I see you turn around again and I'll start over.


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## Gillian Schuler

Connie Sutherland said:


> Me too. Big time. :-o
> 
> 
> Was there ever even an answer to this?


I haven't seen one but I actually think Al meant "obedience" not in "pretty heeling" and jumping but real "obedience" exercises. After all, what is "obedience" really????


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## Gillian Schuler

Tongue in cheek:

I vow to honour, cherish and obey you?


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## Gillian Schuler

Adi Ibrahimbegovic said:


> You want to string an CHOKE an 8 month old puppy, practically still a little bit more than a toddler, who is just being stupid? Hmmm...


An 8 month old dog is no longer a puppy (for me at least). Depending on what it was allowed to get away with from 9 weeks, I shudder to think of handling this only with kid gloves. I agree, however, aggression vs aggression (if it is this) is not the answer.

I side with Michelle on this. The correction must come in answer to the crime. It doesn't matter if OP has initiated this - she has to answer it and within about 3 seconds, so honestly, I wouldn't even care what she did to stop it. The main thing is she stops it. I mean, do you have to know why the young dog is doing this? If you don't want it, you stop it.

And Adi, your comparison to a little more than a toddler, is sadly limping in my opinion. I've never had kids, but I sure wouldn't want my toddlers to represent 8 month old dogs in their behaviour.


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## Eric Read

i'm sorry, but yeah sometimes a butt head dog needs a little more in the way of corrections than others, but just from the way the question was worded in the OP it seem obvious that this person is in over their head.

I doubt very little was done in the way of creating a working relationship between dog and handler up to this point and the dog has no direction, obviously and has no clarity. 

Now the 1st three pages of advice is to choke it and slap the shit out of it. You really think that is going to change anything in how this dog views its owner? I'm more inclined to believe that somebody that doesn't know what they're doing, now is putting up the hard ass front and going to get physical is only going to lead to that person getting bit up and the dog being put down.


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## Gillian Schuler

Eric, you're right. What has been allowed, has been allowed and it's going to be difficult to establish "me Tarzan you Jane" but what do you suggest?


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## Eric Read

first would be that NO, the ecollar should not be used in this situation or by this person. and I don't know what I'd suggest. I dont' know this person, or this dog. 

It sounds like the dog is just being a puppy, but I don't really know, i can't see it myself. All I do for that is redirect the biting to something else. I've seen so many times, and myself included take advice from people in person and misinterpret it, i can only imagine what happens when the real meanings get lost in the interenet translations.

so you'll never see me try to explain much on the net, but I do know that going to find a schutzhund club or two and get in contact with working people would go along ways for this person. You don't learn this stuff overnight or by reading a message board post.

I don't think giving advice to choke or slap the shit out of a dog that might be doing nothing more than trying to have fun interactions with the owner is good advice at all.


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## Gillian Schuler

But she's said she doesn't enjoy these fun interactions. What then?

I don't honestly think it matters what the problem is, if the owner doesn't want it then it has to stop??


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## Carol Boche

I have an 10 month old here right now while the handler is on vacation. One of the issues she was having is the dog being mouthy and pushy....and the handler knows that she might be a little "soft" with the dog (but she is getting better at it since this is her FIRST working line)....first day here, she comes out of the kennel jumping all over me and biting at me (I know this dog as I work with her for SAR training twice a month)...

A stern "NAY, FOOEY" and a good pop on the leash with a prong collar ONE time and she has not put her feet or mouth on me and she has been here for over a week, will I have to do it again?, probably as a reminder as she is a young dog. 

I never friggin slapped her....as doing so would only fire her up more and make it a game to her.......

I'm done....this thread is going nowhere except turning into a pissing match on "slap the dog and you will be leader".....hopefully it gets closed soon. ](*,)[-o<


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## Gillian Schuler

I worked a GSD bitch like this for one of my colleagues - let it out of the car and first she tried to bite (nibble) me but I did like Carol and started working with her.

She would only work with a tug, so I brought her down to food and she stopped the biting and was working quite well. But she was a show dog and only had to achieve SchH 1 and he wanted results pretty damn quickly. We parted company.


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## Anna Kasho

I think Bob said it best. Leadership has nothing to do with physically beating up a pup... One well-timed emphatic correction would stop the biting, and it would only take that once, done right - but the owner is already failing in wrestling with the dog like playmate, and she needs to change her whole attitude interacting with the dog before a correction will do her any good. A corection from a weak person won't make a dog respect them.

And the point is, you do not have to slap or choke an 8mth puppy to establish leadership.


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## Eric Read

Gillian Schuler said:


> But she's said she doesn't enjoy these fun interactions. What then?
> 
> I don't honestly think it matters what the problem is, if the owner doesn't want it then it has to stop??


if you don't enjoy your dog, then find somebody who will. If you're looking for me to say it's ok to tell someone to slap the shit out of their puppy or choke it, because it's wanting to have some fun, i'm not. 

give it back to the breeder, let them place it in a new home. If the owner isn't commited enough to have meaningful interaction with their puppy, i'm pretty sure they won't be committed enough to follow thru with fighting with their dog for "dominance" if that is in fact what she is faced with.


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## Gillian Schuler

Eric, I'm not saying she doesn't enjoy the dog, but the "antics" of the dog are disturbing her and contributing to a siutation where she's not happy with the dog. 

Can't see any reaon why she should not keep the dog, *if *she manages to overcome her problems with it.

I don't know either if the dog is trying to get her attention or not, and her reactions are causing it to growl but they need attending to and, whatever method she chooses, and there have been various offered, if it works for her, then ok. 

Very often, watching someone stronger handle the dog is fatal. You only sink in your own estimation!!


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## Timothy Saunders

Adi Ibrahimbegovic said:


> You want to string an CHOKE an 8 month old puppy, practically still a little bit more than a toddler, who is just being stupid? Hmmm...


Hello Adi , I don't normally call people names on boards because it is just not nice. Secondly I have found that when you meet these people in person they are not quite so brave. I would appreciate you not calling me names.. It is alright to disagree with me the way Mike and Zakia did.
The one thing I don't understand is that people keep saying the dog is 8 months old. The dogs behavior is what is in question. Some dogs are tough at that age. It sounds like she is about to have a dog who is becoming more agressive. when you string up the dog you have control of the dogs head which could keep you from getting bitten. If you slap it (which people are suggesting) you could get your hand bitten or attacked. I have trained plenty of dogs and I never compare dogs to people because they are not. A 8 month old dog has adult teeth and can bite the sh*t out of you. A toddler is no treat to an adult


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## Carol Boche

Timothy Saunders said:


> The one thing I don't understand is that people keep saying the dog is 8 months old. The dogs behavior is what is in question. Some dogs are tough at that age. It sounds like she is about to have a dog who is becoming more aggressive. when you string up the dog you have control of the dogs head which could keep you from getting bitten. If you slap it (which people are suggesting) you could get your hand bitten or attacked. I have trained plenty of dogs and I never compare dogs to people because they are not. A 8 month old dog has adult teeth and can bite the sh*t out of you. A toddler is no treat to an adult


Okay...not done....sorry.....

THIS is something that I would agree with after seeing the dog and what behavior it is actually displaying. 

If I were to give a NAY and a strong leash correction and the dog escalated, this might be something I would do......

I also do not agree with comparing dogs to people nor do I agree with putting human thoughts on a dog....sure I might say "he's doing well "figuring" out how to get that toy out from under the milk crate" but I would never say "he thinks the milk crate stole his toy and he wants it back, poor doggie....." :mrgreen:


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## Connie Sutherland

Timothy Saunders said:


> Hello Adi , I don't normally call people names on boards because it is just not nice. Secondly I have found that when you meet these people in person they are not quite so brave. I would appreciate you not calling me names..



_"an 8 month old puppy, practically still a little bit more than a toddler, who is just being stupid? " _ 

I read this as the puppy "just being stupid."


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## Kammie Lombardi

Addi is a house dog...not doing any personal protection training. Working on obedience.


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## Kammie Lombardi

Yes, we are doing obedience training...but need to turn it up a notch, back where it should be. My father-in-law passed away from cancer last month, so the past month and a half haven't been filled with enough of it.


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## Kammie Lombardi

Thanks for the reply...I'm going to check on the clubs around here.


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## Mike Scheiber

Kammie Lombardi said:


> Thanks for the reply...I'm going to check on the clubs around here.


Excellent


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## Kammie Lombardi

Well, I do work for a living and did not have the time last night to log in because I spent that hour exercising my dog. Not everyone is a moron who has a working dog in a pet home.


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## Nicole Stark

I think you guys will be fine. Put the screws to her a little bit to get her head on straight and I suspect you'll have a really nice dog on your hands. Sounds like you already do, honestly.

Also I'm sorry to hear that your father in law lost his battle with cancer.


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## Carol Boche

Kammie Lombardi said:


> Yes, we are doing obedience training...but need to turn it up a notch, back where it should be. My father-in-law passed away from cancer last month, so the past month and a half haven't been filled with enough of it.


I am sorry to hear about your FIL's passing...that is always tough. :sad:


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## Kammie Lombardi

Why is there even a "working dogs in pet homes" section if all you people do is rip people apart? I'm not your typical moron who brings animals into their lives to just disregard them like garbage.


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## Mike Scheiber

Kammie Lombardi said:


> Why is there even a "working dogs in pet homes" section if all you people do is rip people apart? I'm not your typical moron who brings animals into their lives to just disregard them like garbage.


OH O you must be reading all the bull shit :lol: don't get to worked up there some really stupid shit been spewing.


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## Kammie Lombardi

Carol -- Thanks so much for all of your replies and advice. She is always much better when she gets her exercise on time!


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## susan tuck

Kammie Lombardi said:


> Why is there even a "working dogs in pet homes" section if all you people do is rip people apart? I'm not your typical moron who brings animals into their lives to just disregard them like garbage.


Where is the working dogs in pet homes section? I haven't seen it, is it new?


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## Carol Boche

susan tuck said:


> Where is the working dogs in pet homes section? I haven't seen it, is it new?


Think she means raising a working puppy...and in this case she is raising a working line puppy (in a pet home).....and from the sounds of it...she is holding her own, has a lot on her plate and wants to get er done!!!!!

I hate the word PET...ugh#-o:lol:


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## Kammie Lombardi

Yup, you are right...I'm working on trying to make up ground for not being the leader for the first 6+ months. Addi is my shadow and wants to be next to me 24-7...that's why this has been so frustrating..Dr. Jeckle and Mr. Hyde!


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## Howard Gaines III

Kammie Lombardi said:


> Yup, you are right...I'm working on trying to make up ground for not being the leader for the first 6+ months. Addi is my shadow and wants to be next to me 24-7...that's why this has been so frustrating..Dr. Jeckle and Mr. Hyde!


 Kammie, solid, basic OB can be done in as little as 2 weeks. Sit, stay, recall, down, and stay. Doing it 5 -10 minutes and twice a day. If the puppy is looking around, smelling, and giving you the finger...you can't be doing OB! Use the tools, food or toy reward, corrections for misconduct, and get back with us. Or send the dog to me and a reasonable fee...8-[ I haven't seen that many 8 month old puppies or kids that can't be taught if you can figure out how to get into their head...


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## Adi Ibrahimbegovic

Okay, I did lay it on a bit thick with that comparison, fine, I'll take that, but still, no matter the behavior choking a puppy at that age is abuse, no matter the crime, there is got to be other options.

On the other hand, I think this is actualy a very big mismatch with a working dog with some dominance tendencies or begining to be rank issues with no "stuff to do"and an ambivalent pet owner that has not gotten the dog for any clear work purpose, but simply "to have a pet" - that's what showline GSDs are for...

Either way, if he has been allowed to get away with stuff until 8 months, it's only going to get worse AS ALWAYS with this kidn of a dog - forthe owner - every time puppy is not corrected for something, he'll remember it to be used later.

Also, from the tone the original message is written it won't end up good for the dog, the owner was lookign for a quick solution - Should I zap him and all is good in my home? Most of the owners weregiving the answers in line of true working dog owner advice - this isn't it.



Gillian Schuler said:


> An 8 month old dog is no longer a puppy (for me at least). Depending on what it was allowed to get away with from 9 weeks, I shudder to think of handling this only with kid gloves. I agree, however, aggression vs aggression (if it is this) is not the answer.
> 
> And Adi, your comparison to a little more than a toddler, is sadly limping in my opinion. I've never had kids, but I sure wouldn't want my toddlers to represent 8 month old dogs in their behaviour.


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## Adi Ibrahimbegovic

Hello to you too. Please note I actualy DID NOT call you stupid, but the puppy. Read the whole sentence I wrote, please.



Timothy Saunders said:


> Hello Adi , I don't normally call people names on boards because it is just not nice. Secondly I have found that when you meet these people in person they are not quite so brave. I would appreciate you not calling me names.. It is alright to disagree with me the way Mike and Zakia did.
> The one thing I don't understand is that people keep saying the dog is 8 months old. The dogs behavior is what is in question. Some dogs are tough at that age. It sounds like she is about to have a dog who is becoming more agressive. when you string up the dog you have control of the dogs head which could keep you from getting bitten. If you slap it (which people are suggesting) you could get your hand bitten or attacked. I have trained plenty of dogs and I never compare dogs to people because they are not. A 8 month old dog has adult teeth and can bite the sh*t out of you. A toddler is no treat to an adult


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## Connie Sutherland

Howard Gaines III said:


> Kammie, solid, basic OB ... Doing it 5 -10 minutes and twice a day. If the puppy is looking around, smelling, and giving you the finger...you can't be doing OB! Use the tools, food or toy reward, corrections for misconduct, and get back with us. ..


This too:


Carol Boche said:


> ... Having a working line dog in a pet home is especially challenging...you really need to find something to do with the dog. It may not even be sport work....maybe agility or something. .... Not only do they require enough physical exercise they also require mental exercise as well. ... I am not sure that you can't use marker training to shape the behaviors you DO want and use redirection when she starts being mouthy towards you or your husband.
> Requires patience and dilligence on your part and you need to also give a FIRM but not harsh correction when she seems that she is going to start in. ... You need to establish the boundaries with her....period and you and your husband need to make sure that you both are on the same page with the training.....each of you doing something different will only confuse her. ... Short sessions of obedience throughout the day will help.....always end the training on a good note and do not push her to the point that she is confused, tired or getting mouthy becasue she does not understand what you want. Start with something she knows well and build on that. .... If you must, take her for a run (on soft surfaces since she is so young) or a good game of fetch....basically this will tire her out a bit so that she is more apt to listen to you. ... I see a lot of people get their dogs out and try to go right into obedience work and the dog is clearly too wound up to listen as they should...as she gets older and more mature she should be able to do that....but being a pup she has a short attention span and you need to utilize her being tired and willing to your benefit. ... Also, end the sessions before she does not want to do what you want anymore....even if she is still willing, end it on a positive, put her in her crate......this tends to leave the dog wanting more, so when they come out for the next session they are willing to work with you. ...


If you have not yet done this, then yeah, the pup is probably being stupid because that's all she knows so far. JMO. You need to fix that.


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## Kammie Lombardi

Ummm, not the case. I've invested much time and money and certainly not taking the easy way out. It seems to me that if some critics on this board really cared about the dogs in these situations they wouldn't make the owners feel that it is hopeless. Some people would say, shit, I'm doomed anyway, so let me just drop her off at the dog pound. No chance I'll do that. 
I failed to say earlier that Addi's behavior is predictable in certain situtions so I can anticipate it. It is no where near 24/7, so I don't consider it hopeless.


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## Kammie Lombardi

Adi Ibrahimbegovic said:


> Okay, I did lay it on a bit thick with that comparison, fine, I'll take that, but still, no matter the behavior choking a puppy at that age is abuse, no matter the crime, there is got to be other options.
> 
> On the other hand, I think this is actualy a very big mismatch with a working dog with some dominance tendencies or begining to be rank issues with no "stuff to do"and an ambivalent pet owner that has not gotten the dog for any clear work purpose, but simply "to have a pet" - that's what showline GSDs are for...
> 
> Either way, if he has been allowed to get away with stuff until 8 months, it's only going to get worse AS ALWAYS with this kidn of a dog - forthe owner - every time puppy is not corrected for something, he'll remember it to be used later.
> 
> Also, from the tone the original message is written it won't end up good for the dog, the owner was lookign for a quick solution - Should I zap him and all is good in my home? Most of the owners weregiving the answers in line of true working dog owner advice - this isn't it.


Clarification: My previous post was to this message.


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## Connie Sutherland

Kammie Lombardi said:


> Ummm, not the case. I've invested much time and money and certainly not taking the easy way out. It seems to me that if some critics on this board really cared about the dogs in these situations they wouldn't make the owners feel that it is hopeless. Some people would say, shit, I'm doomed anyway, so let me just drop her off at the dog pound. No chance I'll do that.
> I failed to say earlier that Addi's behavior is predictable in certain situtions so I can anticipate it. It is no where near 24/7, so I don't consider it hopeless.


It's not hopeless.

I was going by this:


Kammie Lombardi said:


> Yup, you are right...I'm working on trying to make up ground for not being the leader for the first 6+ months.


I missed this:


Kammie Lombardi said:


> Yes, we are doing obedience training...but need to turn it up a notch, back where it should be. My father-in-law passed away from cancer last month, so the past month and a half haven't been filled with enough of it.


I'm sorry to hear that. Also, your plan to turn up the training a notch sounds great to me. Exercise and training.


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## maggie fraser

Kammie Lombardi said:


> Ummm, not the case. I've invested much time and money and certainly not taking the easy way out. It seems to me that if some critics on this board really cared about the dogs in these situations they wouldn't make the owners feel that it is hopeless. Some people would say, shit, I'm doomed anyway, so let me just drop her off at the dog pound. No chance I'll do that.
> I failed to say earlier that Addi's behavior is predictable in certain situtions so I can anticipate it. It is no where near 24/7, so I don't consider it hopeless.


 
Do you get the bit about DOING something with the dog? You say you've invested time and money, yet I thought you said in an earlier post you are having to make catch up ?

The dog doesn't sound hopeless here at all....


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## Connie Sutherland

Also, I betcha that if you could post even a short video clip of an obedience training session, you could get pointers on both the training and on pack leadership.


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## Timothy Saunders

Adi Ibrahimbegovic said:


> Hello to you too. Please note I actualy DID NOT call you stupid, but the puppy. Read the whole sentence I wrote, please.


 sorry i miss understood.


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## Dennis Jones

Kammie Lombardi said:


> Ummm, not the case. I've invested much time and money and so I don't consider it hopeless.


 
I wish I could help you, I helped a person with nearly the same problem you're going thru with a bit of advice by watching her work her dog and pointed her towards a trainer that trains these little psychos. If you got the time to train these working line dogs are a pure joy especialy when the team gets to the point where you almost just "think" it and the dog does it with alacrity and velocity:grin:


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## Mo Earle

_....'It seems to me that if some critics on this board really cared about the dogs in these situations they wouldn't make the owners feel that it is hopeless. Some people would say, shit, I'm doomed anyway, so let me just drop her off at the dog pound. .....'
_ 
Kammie, I have to say the majority of people on this forum, are very experienced and CARE greatly about dogs- and like myself have taken in a working dog, that was in a pet home....that now needed rehab for aggression because the dog got" to be to much" for the original owner-and that person could no longer handle the situation and blamed it on the dog..for behaviors that were either cute when the dog was a pup, or that were just let go for whatever reason-but these dogs were actually the lucky ones to get a second chance.....also part of the responses you seem to take as a negative, came from your lack of response to suggestions or questions after your original posting....which now is understandable-but look at it also from the forums side.

I also am one that likes to use an e-collar in training, but would not suggest you use it in this situation-like a lot of the other members on this forum....- I would be glad to help you train your dog...because I absolutely care about dogs-so look me up, or someone in your area.
As far as the members on this forum....this is a great group-lots of experience here...some may coddle you with answers- some will be sarcastic, not because they don't care about dogs.....but because they DO care...it is sad you refer to them as critics....I hope you can stop and see it from their point of view, and become a sponge and learn even just a little...everyone has something to share here...even the newbies, that is what makes this forum viable...good luck with your dog.


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## Kammie Lombardi

Mo Earle said:


> _....'It seems to me that if some critics on this board really cared about the dogs in these situations they wouldn't make the owners feel that it is hopeless. Some people would say, shit, I'm doomed anyway, so let me just drop her off at the dog pound. .....'
> _
> Kammie, I have to say the majority of people on this forum, are very experienced and CARE greatly about dogs- and like myself have taken in a working dog, that was in a pet home....that now needed rehab for aggression because the dog got" to be to much" for the original owner-and that person could no longer handle the situation and blamed it on the dog..for behaviors that were either cute when the dog was a pup, or that were just let go for whatever reason-but these dogs were actually the lucky ones to get a second chance.....also part of the responses you seem to take as a negative, came from your lack of response to suggestions or questions after your original posting....which now is understandable-but look at it also from the forums side.
> 
> I also am one that likes to use an e-collar in training, but would not suggest you use it in this situation-like a lot of the other members on this forum....- I would be glad to help you train your dog...because I absolutely care about dogs-so look me up, or someone in your area.
> As far as the members on this forum....this is a great group-lots of experience here...some may coddle you with answers- some will be sarcastic, not because they don't care about dogs.....but because they DO care...it is sad you refer to them as critics....I hope you can stop and see it from their point of view, and become a sponge and learn even just a little...everyone has something to share here...even the newbies, that is what makes this forum viable...good luck with your dog.


Hi Mo:

Thanks for taking the time to write this. I was only referring to "critics" because a handful of responses, where people were saying (paraphrase) "just another sad case of a dog that will end up in pound". Guess it is a hot button for me because I've taken animals in before they went to a shelter. I didn't want to purchase a puppy, I wanted to adopt one, but finding a purebred was impossible. I lived with a police K9 in the past (who was already trained...big difference, now I see). 

But, reflecting on this now, I'm sure many people here see this happen over and over, so I can appreciate their disgust, too. And, I'll take someone who cares about animals over a non-animal person anyday!

Kammie


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## Dan Brigham

Michelle Kehoe said:


> Not sure why some of you try and make it so damn difficult. The dog needs to be told no in a straitforward manner. NO grey area, if you don't want your dog bitting you, smack the shit out of her and give a stern NO! Doesn't sound like she is wanting to work the dog, so NO reason to be worried about bite inhibition. Finding some trainer may never happen, joining a club is un needed, it is a PET people. I know how much we all hate working dogs as pets but it is a reality. A good ass kicking isn't going to ruin this pup, she sounds like she is quite full of herself and needs to be knocked down a peg or 2, to fit into this household. Better 1-2 good ass kickings than to be nagged to death for life and then nobody is happy. End the biting and rough stuff now before it becomes a life long habit.
> 
> This sounds like your common pet person is too worried about screwing the dog up, to make it actually mind. Then you all chime in and confirm her thoughts, "oh don't do that", find someone else to fix your problems (trainer) problem is it's hard to know what a trainer is made of, until the dog is either screwed up or fixed and your minus $$$ (insert amount here). It's like raising a kid, you make rules and then you expect them to be followed. When rules are broken, punishment awaits. Be 100% consistant in whatever method you use and the dog will figure out, what you do and don't want.
> 
> About the only thing above I agree with, is not to use an e-collar. You need to be clear YOU are the one ending this behaviour. The e-collar is too impersonal for this. You as the owner/handler can do this yourself, tell the dog no in a harsh voice and use whatever correction you think will end the behaviour once and for all. Obviously, more than you have done up to this date and probably slightly harsher than you want to do, to your baby dog. If that doesn't work, harder next time. So far you have just shown her, it is OK to do it again and again and again. Stop the cycle.
> 
> If you were bullying someone you knew daily at work and they kept taking it, would you stop if they finally dotted your eye oneday? You'd say "shit, where did that come from?" If it hurt enough or humiliated you enough, to have your butt whooped in front of everyone, I'd say you wouldn't come back for seconds. Same concept. If your dog is as loveing as you say, she wants to make you happy, most dogs do. It seems harsh but the dog will be much happier when you are much happier with her bahaviour.


Damn, that is the best posting I have seen on this thread!!!!! It fits the situation of a pup who think you are their bitch!!!


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## maggie fraser

....funny that, I thought that post fitted the situation where neither dog nor owner have a clue what is expected of each other! Giving a young dog a good belt about the head isn't exactly good education, it helps to understand a little about what's going on. For a dog/owner scenario that no one has even seen, there's been quite a lot of negative noise made on this thread.

Bob Scott has mostly said what needs saying on this thread. Just an opinion of course.


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## Don Turnipseed

This thread is largely why I put up the sattire thread. I didn't see any real problem with the dog described to begin with.


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## Carol Boche

Don Turnipseed said:


> This thread is largely why I put up the sattire thread. I didn't see any real problem with the dog described to begin with.


You're still on my shit list for that....and yes, I am plotting revenge....:lol::lol::lol:


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## Don Turnipseed

Carol Boche said:


> You're still on my shit list for that....and yes, I am plotting revenge....:lol::lol::lol:


LMAO Carol, does this mean I shouldn't answer any of your posts?? LOL


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## Carol Boche

Don Turnipseed said:


> LMAO Carol, does this mean I shouldn't answer any of your posts?? LOL


Oh no...please do....I would miss that, it won't happen that soon....LOL :twisted::mrgreen::mrgreen:


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## Connie Sutherland

maggie fraser said:


> ....funny that, *I thought that post fitted the situation where neither dog nor owner have a clue what is expected of each other*! Giving a young dog a good belt about the head isn't exactly good education, it helps to understand a little about what's going on. *For a dog/owner scenario that no one has even seen*, there's been quite a lot of negative noise made on this thread. ... Bob Scott has mostly said what needs saying on this thread. Just an opinion of course.


That's what surprises me most: We who have not even seen the behavior recommending hitting the young dog as the _first course_ of action.

When the O.P. says she has failed in taking a leadership role with the dog for 6 months, it seems that that might be a first course of action. A belt on the head ... not so much. 

I was kind of surprised at the course the thread took.


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## Nicole Stark

Don Turnipseed said:


> I didn't see any real problem with the dog described to begin with.


I didn't either. I gather that Kammie was largely just trying to think through a plan she already knew she needed to set into motion. Sounds to me like her instincts are right, she just wasn't sure how to put it all together.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Bunch of dumbass skimmers on this board. Not a trainer in sight.

More than likely without any of your stupid ideas, once she got back into the routine and classes the problem will disapear.

8 months is not a puppy. Toddlers have not gone through puberty, and that is what is happening around 6 months. I am not sure where this bullshit first appeared, but somehow I still see idiots calling their almost 2 year old dog a puppy.

I am sure that someone addressed this, but **** em, I am doing it again. The alpha roll is retarded, and should be dismissed as anything to do with training.

As far as getting a working dog into a pet home, this should not matter. If the dog is stable, then it will just accept the way things are. It does not know what it is missing, that is what we call anthropomorphism. 90% of working dogs in this country are ****ing pointless to begin with, so what are the odds that Godzirra is loose at her house.

Your dog will be fine without doing anything different than you did before. Never be afraid to crack your dog in the head, but please pick a behavior that is unacceptable, not something done in play.

On this board most of the people that responded to you have no experience, almost no experience, or are just flat out pathetic. LOL Try not to take them real seriously.

If you ever REALLY get in trouble, then maybe a video. I just don't think you are in trouble as much as you are stressed out by the loss of a family member.


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## Howard Gaines III

Connie Sutherland said:


> ...
> When the O.P. says she has failed in taking a leadership role with the dog for 6 months, it seems that that might be a first course of action. A belt on the head ... not so much...


*Leadership*...and the dog can either lead or follow, the human can fuss and carry on about the dog's bad behavior/s. Doesn't K-9 ownership start with owning the day-in and day-out life of the dog? Seems to me if you have problems with the dog, go back and see what you are doing or NOT doing to send the message to the critter that giving the finger is OK! As a kid, that behavior wouldn't was at home, belt to the Levi's...[-X


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## Connie Sutherland

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Never be afraid to crack your dog in the head, but please pick a behavior that is unacceptable, not something done in play...


And a behavior that you've taught the dog is unacceptable. Cracking the dog in the head, again, isn't the first recourse. ](*,)

I'm willing to bet that the O.P. is smarter than the dog and can deal with this _without_ a crack on the head being the first step.




Bob Scott said:


> 99 times out of 100 it's leadership skills that are needed and that has nothing to do with overpowering a puppy OR even training a dog. .... I don't think MOST so called trainers have it. Slapping a puppy around sure wont get you there either.
> JMHO of course! ;-)


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## Michelle Reusser

Connie Sutherland said:


> And a behavior that you've taught the dog is unacceptable. Cracking the dog in the head, again, isn't the first recourse. ](*,)
> 
> I'm willing to bet that the O.P. is smarter than the dog and can deal with this _without_ a crack on the head being the first step.


Maybe true but without a trainer, is this really going to happen? Cracking on the head goes back a million years and hasn't failed to work even today.

The important thing is success, the dog gets to stay in the home. You can pussy foot around and try this and that but what will happen, when the owners patience runs out?

I'll agree this can be gone about 100 different ways maybe. A person will go about it, in whatever way makes them most comfortable. Me I don't worry about being PC and my dogs are not children, no time-outs, I don't withold cookies. I use yes, no, good, and NO with something swinging at the same time depending on degree of the infraction. Dogs understand these best. They respect me and my rules and if you see them interacting with me, you will see they don't fear me. They are confident and sure dogs. Capital punishment has gone the way of the Dodo in our society but, it's not going anywhere in my training, raising or rearing of my kids or dogs.


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## Guest

You mean corporal punishment?


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## Connie Sutherland

Michelle Kehoe said:


> Me I don't worry about being PC and my dogs are not children, no time-outs, I don't withold cookies. I use yes, no, good, and NO with something swinging at the same time depending on degree of the infraction.


Not choosing a whack on the head for step 1 isn't the same as "withholding cookies." Or being PC, either.


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## Michelle Reusser

Steven Lepic said:


> You mean corporal punishment?


Yes Corporal, sorry, that's what happens when I get someone talking to me, while I am listening to a talk show and typing. I should have thrown something at him, can't he see I am busy? LMAO I may have to bust out some capital, if it happens again.


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## Michelle Reusser

Connie Sutherland said:


> And a behavior that you've taught the dog is unacceptable. Cracking the dog in the head, again, isn't the first recourse. ](*,)
> 
> I'm willing to bet that the O.P. is smarter than the dog and can deal with this _without_ a crack on the head being the first step.


Cracking the dog on the head because she won't sit when first asked no, but biting to the point of leaving marks, such as bruises, something has to be done right then and there!

It is the way dogs work among eachother is it not? A dog will learn human posturing as well...mine know when I tense up and want to slap the shit out of them and that is usually enough. HEY! and "the look" from me is enough to stop any behaviour 99% of the time. Let's not act as if a cuffing once in awhile is abuse. It's all about timing and circumstance. 

I can't even remember the last time I had to strike my 3 yr old male. Now the 9 month old....he is still pushing his boundries. He's so fast I usually miss anyway but he gets the point all the same and knocks the shit off for a day or 2. I have to agree excersize is key to keeping them out of trouble, the most trouble I get from mine is during the exit from kennel, on our walk to where I excersize them.


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## Connie Sutherland

Michelle Kehoe said:


> Let's not act as if a cuffing once in awhile is abuse. .


OMG.

If that's what you read in any of my posts then I need to take a communications class. :lol:


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## Michelle Reusser

Connie Sutherland said:


> OMG.
> 
> If that's what you read in any of my posts then I need to take a communications class. :lol:


Nope not singling anybody out Connie. I just know it's in the back of somebodies mind somewhere out there, heaven forbid we use spanking anymore, how barbaric. Before we know it, witholding anything, TV, iPODS, dessert will be "abuse" too. Holy crap arrest me, I fast my dogs every coupe weeks too.


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## Connie Sutherland

Michelle Kehoe said:


> I just know it's in the back of somebodies mind somewhere out there ...



Ah.


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## Carlos Machado

It sounds like you have a teenager not a toddler after a dog goes through there first heat they can be more challenging a month after it seems, again at 1.5 to 2 after the second heat when they are becoming young adults same for males. I always make them wait at the door for me to let them out same with the car use a leash to correct her if she tries to exit before you allow also use your voice and your hands a little mild flanking will get her attention as will a little bite from your hand now she may try to mouth your hand when she does give her what she wants put your fingers in her mouth ether grab her lower jaw with your thumb and hold they don't like it and will pull away if your arm is in her mouth put you finger in the back of her jaw almost choking from the inside she will let go fast that should take care of the mouthing, you have stated that she doesn't hurt you so this should work. I've done it to all my pups I have put my hand in the middle of my adult dog trying to bite someone with no worry. Now if the dog is biting for real then you have no choice but to hang them if they are on leash with some kind of choker until she relaxes or jump on her grabbing the neck from on top straddle her then sit on her and keep her down until she gives up this may take a while but do not lose the battle she will submit try and fight as little as possible she will calm down faster. I know you have tried the alpha roll with limited success but try this when she is tiered take some treats to her get her to lay down roll her on her side while petting and giving treats saying "settle" keep it happy and light like a grooming session brush her pet her but teach her that you control when she can leave holding her head/shoulder with one hand and her hip with the other from behind her back keep it short with little wins soon you will be able to get her to submit on command this can be used for cutting nails or going to the vet for as long as you want because she has been conditioned to obey her pack leader. Some people may not agree but you have to go to the vet, cut their nails, and groom them why should it be a dangerous fight every time some will say a dog rolls over on it's own when with other dogs, if they feel submissive and if they don't they fight for dominance until one beats the other into submition after that fight and probably a many hundred little ones before that the other dog will roll over for the dominant dog. It may take many mild battles before your dog submits to you or another dog Obedience routines don't always have the same effect the dog may do all the routines perfectly but still not let you cut there nails be gentle but firm practice the settle command and soon your troubles should end.

Carlos


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## Sue Miller

I think before you start with the corrections you should do two things simultaneously:

1. Learn to play with your dog with a tug or ball.
2. Train basic motivational obedience (start with the sit, that's all you need right now) so you can control her.

Don't automatically think that she's trying to take over or trying to kill you . When you watch 2 dogs play this is what they do--mouth each other, growl etc. I believe that she's just being a puppy because that's what she is--a puppy. You need to communicate to her what's right & wrong. That will, down-the-line, include corrections but right now I think you will just confuse her by correcting her for acting naturally.

After you train her to sit, when she gets a little rough, tell her to sit & then you can correct her for not sitting. You can transfer the biting to a ball or tug & make a game out of it. Eventually, your dog will learn that when she "bites" you (it's not really biting, it's rough play) she has to sit & will be corrected for not sitting. She will bring the toy to you to play instead of biting you. All my dogs (puppies & adults) grip my arm without hurting me. It's a sign of affection--that doesn't mean that you have to let your puppy do this.


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## Curtis McHail

8mo old puppy? E-collar? Prong collar correction? Grab the little SOB by the scruff and shake 'em til he/she squeals. Some pups will come back at you or at least pretend to when you let them go, shake the little SOB again. Of course this is the old school way, I prefer to simply grab the pup up, look him in the eye, and say "No..."...but I'm assuimg you've tried that SO? SHAKE THE LITTLE BUM! Lol!


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## Gillian Schuler

I fail to see the difference between using an e-collar / prong collar and "shaking the little so and so" apart from the fact that with the e-collar and the prong, emotions can be kept at a minimum.

The old methods included the prong by the way, see Konrad Most!!!!


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## Michelle Reusser

I agree Gillian. Also at 8 mos old my now 3 yr old dog was already in the upper 80's in weight. No way was I picking him up and shaking anything out of him.


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## charles Turner

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Bunch of dumbass skimmers on this board. Not a trainer in sight.
> 
> More than likely without any of your stupid ideas, once she got back into the routine and classes the problem will disapear.
> 
> 8 months is not a puppy. Toddlers have not gone through puberty, and that is what is happening around 6 months. I am not sure where this bullshit first appeared, but somehow I still see idiots calling their almost 2 year old dog a puppy.
> 
> I am sure that someone addressed this, but **** em, I am doing it again. The alpha roll is retarded, and should be dismissed as anything to do with training.
> 
> As far as getting a working dog into a pet home, this should not matter. If the dog is stable, then it will just accept the way things are. It does not know what it is missing, that is what we call anthropomorphism. 90% of working dogs in this country are ****ing pointless to begin with, so what are the odds that Godzirra is loose at her house.
> 
> Your dog will be fine without doing anything different than you did before. Never be afraid to crack your dog in the head, but please pick a behavior that is unacceptable, not something done in play.
> 
> On this board most of the people that responded to you have no experience, almost no experience, or are just flat out pathetic. LOL Try not to take them real seriously.
> 
> If you ever REALLY get in trouble, then maybe a video. I just don't think you are in trouble as much as you are stressed out by the loss of a family member.


Jeff, I think you just turned the lightbulb on for her, well said.


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## Curtis McHail

Gillian Schuler said:


> I fail to see the difference between using an e-collar / prong collar and "shaking the little so and so" apart from the fact that with the e-collar and the prong, emotions can be kept at a minimum.
> 
> The old methods included the prong by the way, see Konrad Most!!!!


People use e-collars in different ways. My dog knows every e-collar correction comes from ME. Some people do not train this way, so I think you should at least ask how they plan to use the collar. But anyway, e-collars for aggression issues are a great way to get bit. For aggression issues use a slip, prong, or your hands. 

This, is not aggression, but it can turn into it, can't it? Too many sissies wanting to use gadgets and not get their hands furry. If you're scared of an 8 month old, you shouldn't own working dogs. Putting your hands on a dog and physically demanding respect and compliance will always be more effective than clicking a button especially if you have a dog who doesn't know the correction comes from you/a dog who's what I call "aware" of the e-collar (and a lot more dogs are "aware" than many handlers admit).

As far as emotions go, you're a human, an adult human, not the dumb animal. It's your responsibility to control your emotions, if you can't, not only should you not own working dogs, you shouldn't own dogs, get married, or have children...the police have better things to do than arrest people who can't control their emotions and feel the need to beat on things smaller and weaker than themselves to feel good.


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## Gillian Schuler

Curtis, I was referring to your exclamation of "8 month old pup and prong/e-collar corrections". I thought pups were pups until about 5-6 months. 8 months is a young dog.

I wasn't suggesting what Kammie should use - it's not easy to "teach" someone to be master of their own dog and being physical with it might just widen the breach even more if she hasn't the strength to "knock some sense into it".

Some suggestions like Thomas B said would be a help.


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## Howard Gaines III

I had another person tell me that they are using the e-collar on a 4 month old Rottie. What is the deal with all the hard training gear use? If the puppy is biting your arms and it's behavior you don't want, redirect and correct! This puppy isn't that hard...](*,)


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## Lou Castle

Howard Gaines III said:


> I had another person tell me that they are using the e-collar on a 4 month old Rottie. What is the deal with all the hard training gear use? If the puppy is biting your arms and it's behavior you don't want, redirect and correct! This puppy isn't that hard...](*,)


How come so many of you folks consider the Ecollar to be _"hard training gear?"_ Used as I do, it's the most gentle of tools that one can give corrections with. 

Four months is younger than I like to go. Most manufacturers, and I agree, suggest that six months is the youngest that one should use an Ecollar. But it really depends on the individual dog and his maturity level.


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## James Downey

Lou Castle said:


> How come so many of you folks consider the Ecollar to be _"hard training gear?"_ Used as I do, it's the most gentle of tools that one can give corrections with.
> 
> Four months is younger than I like to go. Most manufacturers, and I agree, suggest that six months is the youngest that one should use an Ecollar. But it really depends on the individual dog and his maturity level.


 
That's funny Gentle correction tool!!!! In order for correction to be useful, it has to be aversive. Meaning it has to be intense enough to make the dog wish to avoid it. And anything the dog wants to avoid, probably cannot be described as gentle.


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## Lou Castle

James Downey said:


> That's funny Gentle correction tool!!!! In order for correction to be useful, it has to be aversive. Meaning it has to be intense enough to make the dog wish to avoid it. And anything the dog wants to avoid, probably cannot be described as gentle.


A dog is lying in the sun and becomes too hot. So he gets up and moves to the shade. Lying in the sun had become _"aversive"_ and so he _"want[ed] to avoid [it]."_ You can also reverse that situation with the dog who moves INTO the sun to warm himself. Both situations contain aversives. I think those examples are pretty gentle but I guess definitions will vary. 

HERE'S some video of a dog feeling his first stim at the level that he can first perceive it. That's where most of my work is done. Looks pretty gentle to me. But again, definitions will vary.


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## Howard Gaines III

Lou Castle said:


> How come so many of you folks consider the Ecollar to be _"hard training gear?"_ Used as I do, it's the most gentle of tools that one can give corrections with..


 Lou what do you do if this tool fails to give the desired result, up the volts!?! IMO the e-collar should only be last line of training gear. Understand in the K-9 training world, more dogs = more $$$. The e-collar is the shortest method to burn the behavior into the dog's head. More dogs trained or conditioned, the more money folks make...the other methods take much more time.

I do understand how this thing works. On low levels the dog "responds" and a behavior is made. The same thing can be done with food, toy, or verbals. If you use the most aggressive tool in the box, where do you go from there if it isn't working? An ass kick??? Sorry, on this you and I will have to disagree. =;


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## Lou Castle

Howard Gaines III said:


> Lou what do you do if this tool fails to give the desired result, up the volts!?!


Howard I've put Ecollars on well over 3.000 dogs. NOT ONCE have I had to do this. At the level that the dogs first feel, they find it aversive. I've never had one dog find the stim pleasant. And so they all want to avoid it. I use a leash and my hands to guide the dog into the desired behavior and show them how to make it stop. I'm sure that somewhere out there is a dog that this method/tool won't work on. I've yet to find him. The odds are getting slimmer every day. 

To be more specific and perhaps anticipate the next question. When a dog is distracted he won't feel the level of stim that he felt when he was at rest. There's nothing special about this, EVERYTHING loses it's influence in this situation, including leash corrections, treats, praise and toys. With the Ecollar you can slowly turn the level of stim up until, at the new level of distraction, the dog AGAIN just barely can perceive the stim. When he's excited or distracted THIS is the level that he's worked at. It's a higher level but still, it's where he can first feel it. 



Howard Gaines III said:


> IMO the e-collar should only be last line of training gear.


Used as most people probably use it, I'd agree. Most people train the behaviors with some other method and then use the Ecollar only for proofing, working at a distance or punishing non-compliance. Those people are usually using the tool at fairly high levels of stim, where the dog vocalizes in pain. That's not necessary and it's not what I do. 

I use it as the FIRST LINE of training gear for many things, including OB with a dog that's six months or older, and teaching the out for a biting dog. 



Howard Gaines III said:


> Understand in the K-9 training world, more dogs = more $$$.


I've never been in that much of a hurry Howard, that I'd unnecessarily cause pain to a dog. I've never been _"a quantity kinda guy."_ 



Howard Gaines III said:


> The e-collar is the shortest method to burn the behavior into the dog's head.


Didja watch the video of the dog feeling his first stim in my last post in this thread? I don't think this dog thinks he's having anything _"burned into [his] head."_ 

HERE'S another video  showing a dog being worked in the Ecollar. Perhaps you can point out when he's having a behavior _"burned into [his] head."_

AND just one more.  Same request – can you tell us when he's having a behavior _"burned into [his] head."_



Howard Gaines III said:


> More dogs trained or conditioned, the more money folks make...the other methods take much more time.


I'm sorry Howard but trying to attribute a financial motivation to me on this just isn't going to fly. I'm retired, have an excellent pension and nowadays work only when I want to. I don't need the money. I often work with the local PD's for free. I'm not in any hurry and never have been, although the methods works extremely quickly. I've always been more concerned with the quality of the work. 



Howard Gaines III said:


> I do understand how this thing works. On low levels the dog "responds" and a behavior is made. The same thing can be done with food, toy, or verbals.


When a dog gets distracted he's not interested in _"food, toys or verbals."_ In fact this is one reason that people often go to the Ecollar. The dog gets distracted and stops responding to commands reliably. 



Howard Gaines III said:


> If you use the most aggressive tool in the box, where do you go from there if it isn't working?


I don't think that the Ecollar is _"the most aggressive tool in the box."_ I think a pinch collar is far more aggressive and many here use it quite commonly. I think that my record of over 3,000 dogs and not one failure kinda shows that it does work. When I come across that dog that it does not work on, I'll get back to you. Dogs at my seminars are not prescreened. What issue they have I work with when they show up. I've never failed to make progress and not one dog has had anything _"burned into his head."_ 



Howard Gaines III said:


> An ass kick???


I did that once when I was new and a trainer told me to. When I did it, I knew that it was wrong for two reasons. The first was obvious, the second was that it did not change the dog's behavior. 



Howard Gaines III said:


> Sorry, on this you and I will have to disagree. =;


I don't mind if we disagree Howard. I'm sure that you have much success in your training but I know how this stuff works from doing it many times and you're guessing about my results.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: HERE'S some video of a dog feeling his first stim at the level that he can first perceive it. That's where most of my work is done. Looks pretty gentle to me. But again, definitions will vary.

Nice that he was talking to a large tit. Real professional stuff. LOL

So if I use an e-collar, will there be more of those to talk to ??


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## Howard Gaines III

*I'm sorry Howard but trying to attribute a financial motivation to me on this just isn't going to fly. I'm retired, have an excellent pension and nowadays work only when I want to. I don't need the money. I often work with the local PD's for free. I'm not in any hurry and never have been, although the methods works extremely quickly. I've always been more concerned with the quality of the work. 
*Lou I never said that was your goal...I know of many "trainers" whose goal is more dogs in and more bucks in the account. Screw how the dog feels, it's business. 

Stim has never felt good, even in rehab. I hate it! If you have a real headstrong dog and/or behavior that is MOST extreme, I have no issue with the use and use one. But for the way I do it, it is a last use tool. There is pain with it, think not, put it on a most sensitive part of your body and hold it for a ten count! =D>

The nice thing about choice and tools in the box, so much to use and like using a sledge hammer for trim work, it will show the builder's skill. USE WITH CARE...


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## Lou Castle

Howard Gaines III said:


> Lou I never said that was your goal...I know of many "trainers" whose goal is more dogs in and more bucks in the account. Screw how the dog feels, it's business.


Since you were responding to me I thought that you were attributing this to me. 



Howard Gaines III said:


> But for the way I do it, it is a last use tool. There is pain with it, think not, put it on a most sensitive part of your body and hold it for a ten count! =D>


I'd say that pain is a continuum. It ranges from the highest level – _"I can't stand that for another second."_ to the lowest – _"It's chilly, I think I need a sweater."_ I do most of my work at the lowest levels, where the dog first feels it. 

I'd describe what I do and what is taught on my site as _discomfort _rather than pain.


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## Thomas Barriano

*Re: Three Thousand?*



Lou Castle said:


> Howard I've put Ecollars on well over 3.000 dogs.
> I think that my record of over 3,000 dogs and not one failure


???? trí mhíle ar mhadraí le teipeanna NÍL nó ar fhrithghníomhartha unpleasant? Ní mór duit a bheith ar an oiliúnóra collar is fearr iargúlta ar fud an domhain ar fad ar fud.


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## Steve Strom

*Re: Three Thousand?*



Thomas Barriano said:


> ???? trí mhíle ar mhadraí le teipeanna NÍL nó ar fhrithghníomhartha unpleasant? Ní mór duit a bheith ar an oiliúnóra collar is fearr iargúlta ar fud an domhain ar fad ar fud.


I' 확실히 m는 당신의 정확한, 그러나 gaelic 번역하기 아주 어렵다. 3000는 인터넷에 마법수인 것을 보인다.


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