# To Correct or Not?



## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

Do you believe it's counter-productive to the working dog's development to correct unwanted behavior in a puppy? Or do you believe that some behaviors should/must be corrected in order to teach the puppy some basic manners? 

For example, at feeding time my new female pup, Fiona, becomes very excited and jumps up toward the counter and on to us to get to her food. If she could she'd be up on the counter. While I like the drive I don't like this ill-mannered behavior. When she does this I quickly and firmly push her away while stating a "no" command. I usually have to do this at least a few times. I do believe she is starting to understand and is starting to show some signs of self-control during feeding time. 

Am I making a mistake?


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

You know my philosophy, let them be wild lil puppies while they're young. They're only young once. I dont like pups that are too controlled at a young age.

Some people correct for manners some don't. Each side of the fence will tell you their way is the right way. It depends what you want in your dog. I find that dogs that have been told what to do too much during puppyhood will lose the ability to work independantly and make their own decisions later on, and keep waiting for a cue from you before daring to do something. Depends on the dog too ofcourse, but even the hardest dog can be soft as a puppy.

I also think the handler makes a difference here. If you are, and we know YOU are, a person who ALWAYS wants their dogs to listen to you, do everything you say at your whiim, and are very persistent about it, then even more so you will make the dog want to seek your approval for every little thing. I think being more lax with a puppy when you have a very domineering personality will benefit the dog. No matter what you do, as a dominant type of person you will always appear very dominant over a puppy whether you mean to or not. Forcing them to behave a certain way only adds to this.

I know Bob believes in house manners, and I know some other people do too, all of who's opinions and experience I respect a great deal, but this is just my observation and viewpoint, and how I want my own dogs to act  I don't need a robot, and I know how easy it is to get carried away with control.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I agree with Mike, let puppies do puppy things. Admittedly I don't have a lot to do with puppies, (they bore me). The few I have had I actually encouraged their inquisitiveness, taught them drop it, leave it and out. Usually with a lot of redirecting unwanted behavior rather than any form of correction. 

DFrost


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## Ian Forbes (Oct 13, 2006)

Patrick Murray said:


> Do you believe it's counter-productive to the working dog's development to correct unwanted behavior in a puppy? Or do you believe that some behaviors should/must be corrected in order to teach the puppy some basic manners?
> 
> For example, at feeding time my new female pup, Fiona, becomes very excited and jumps up toward the counter and on to us to get to her food. If she could she'd be up on the counter. While I like the drive I don't like this ill-mannered behavior. When she does this I quickly and firmly push her away while stating a "no" command. I usually have to do this at least a few times. I do believe she is starting to understand and is starting to show some signs of self-control during feeding time.
> 
> Am I making a mistake?


It really is up to you. I don't like frantic behaviour around feeding time, so I tend to demand decent behaviour before I put the bowl down.

That said, I personally would not actively correct by pushing the pup away (this would probably just raise the excitement). I either wait it out until I see calm behaviour (this is IMO the best way to get the pup to develop self control) or give a command that is incompatible with bad behaviour (sit or down) and then release the pup to eat.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

You can't correct what you haven't taught. You can redirect...I'm with Mike and Bob, let the puppy be a puppy. Too much "training" and you can kill your puppies working drive.


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## Chris Wild (Jan 30, 2008)

For the most part I'm of the opinion to let them be puppies. But I also don't believe a puppy needs to lead a life completely free of any sort of discipline or correction lest it hurt the pup's working drive. But I pick and choose my battles carefully. For the most part, we let our pups run rampant. If they counter surf, chew on things they shouldn't, zoom around the house vaulting over the furniture, jump up on people, etc... we use redirection and other methods to cut down on those incidents so as not to let the pups develp bad habits, without actually correcting. Good puppy proofing goes a long way in preventing problems from the start, as does proper exercise, using crates when we can't supervise, etc...

But we do have a couple rules that are set in stone, and we will correct for if needed. For us, those rules mainly center around the other animals. The pups cannot chase the cats or chase or harass the horses. That's not so much a manners issue as it is an obvious safety issue for everyone involved. We work on socializing them around the other animals and teaching them how to behave, but if they forget those lessons and can't resist chasing, they do get a very firm correction for it. 

They also spend quite a lot of time with our older retired dogs, and I find the older dogs are wonderful at helping teach the pups the ropes, enforcing the rules of the house, and teaching the pups basic canine social skills and manners. We do have one old dog who goes overboard and bullies puppies, constantly dominating them. That is not allowed and we don't want the pups to be put through that sort of treatment, so they don't spend time with her. But our other old dogs are very tolerant and permissive with pups and never bully the pups, while at the same time setting boundaries for them and being very mindful of the pup's age... their expectations for behavior from a 6 month old are much different than from an 8 week old. And so are our's.

We've always raised pups this way, with a certain degree of discipline, and it's certainly never hurt their drive or attitude for the work. My opinion is that if a pup needs to lead a life of 100% freedom to do whatever it wants at all times, with no consequences or discipline, in order to have the attitude to work, it isn't of proper working temperament to begin with. And I've seen pups raised that way develop some major issues when they hit a year old, or whatever age their handler decided was appropriate to start correcting them, and the sudden introduction of discipline, something they'd never experienced before and didn't understand, really confused and angered the dog. At the same time, of course living a puppy hood that is full of constantly being bullied, dominanted, and corrected certainly can harm even the best pup's confidence and attitude. 

I think moderation and common sense is best. I do think it good for pups to learn some discipline when young. If being raised in a true pack they certainly would be. I don't think that a pup's psyche is so fragile that some discipline is going to screw it up. But that needs to be handled carefully and not overdone. It should be kept to the minimum amount needed, and above all the rules should be clear, fair, and consistent. It's lack of clarity and inconsistency that screws dogs up more than honest, fair discipline.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Well said Chris. I think the misconception is that there is a lack of structure entirely. I think the key is to manipulate the pups without them realizing that they are being controlled. As you say, with redirection and crate time unless supervised. A repeated behavior becomes a habbit for a pup, there's no need to correct a pup for most things with physical correction.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I was just thinking that you are making her food right in front of her, so actually you get the correction for being stupid, and a shove in the chest and a no. You only broke about 5,000,000, rules for raising a puppy and training on that little disaster. HA HA. Hold food in your mouth and put your face by hers and then ask us if you should correct for her biting your face. I cannot believe they didn't hand you your ass for that question, soft little PC'ers. Must be the pet population that is infesting this forum.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I was just thinking that you are making her food right in front of her, so actually you get the correction for being stupid, and a shove in the chest and a no. You only broke about 5,000,000, rules for raising a puppy and training on that little disaster. HA HA. Hold food in your mouth and put your face by hers and then ask us if you should correct for her biting your face. I cannot believe they didn't hand you your ass for that question, soft little PC'ers. Must be the pet population that is infesting this forum.


Oh, thank heaven you weren't off taking some kind of sensitivity training or something. :lol:


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## Terry Fisk (Jul 26, 2007)

It's much easier to shape behavior at this age than let it manifest and try to correct it later. If done properly it won't be a correction and can become a daily training session. Reward for staying off the counter and humans, then work into rewarding for a sit or down and waiting for her meal, pup gets the meal for proper behavior. No reward for counter surfing or bouncing off the handler. She literally has to "work for food".

Terry Fisk
www.showandsport.com
www.firecreeks.com


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Although I do believe in letting a pup be a pup, I'll agree with Terry that shaping or capturing behaviour can be done with no corrections. With voice or clicker, mark when all four feet are on the ground and treat. 
I also agree with our prodigal son about preparing it with the dog not present if you don't want to correct.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

I put up with as much as I can but don't have a problem fixing some things that get anoying. IMO if the pup is decent manners can't hurt. Sometimes I think people are too tippy toe around pups.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

I think there is a difference between tippy toe and expecting too much from a puppy. Some people get carried away with control. The pup looks like an adult so they treat him like one.


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

I teach them to sit for their food and that's about it. My latest puppy would dive into the food bin and make us laugh, i love having a puppy around, no boredom for me.
AL


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

I use positive reinforcement to "control" my pups. Food is a wonderful thing. 

I do not really "control" anything other than counter jumping/surfing. Ember does really well now while I am preparing meals, she sits like a stone either on my left side or behind me and "chatters" her teeth the whole time. 

She is learning a few basic commands with PR though and she is doing well. But when she gets her 10 or 15 minutes of "free" time in the house (and hubby is gone) she gets to run amok a bit. Most of the time she wants to tug or fetch the squeaker ball anyway though. 

The other day while I was preparing food, she was running amok in the living room with a tug (in my line of vision) and she figured out she could launch from the back of the couch, onto the kitchen counter and "help" me cut up chicken for the dogs meals........needless to say we did have a discussion about that.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Funnel a pup's behaviour so they always 'seem' like they're doing the right things. I correct puppies only if it's an extreme behaviour, such as aggression...I'm patient with the pups, on one hand, on the other hand, I'm not something they're allowed to mindlessly walk on. Take a cue from a stable adult dog...they'll let the puppies get away with a lot of things but if they cross the line, they'll let them know...the pup still has to understand that you're the boss. Of course, correcting a pup doesn't mean beating the crap out of it until it stops moving. Don't expect much from them and you won't be disappointed.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

For me, it's just easier to hold off on training until they grow up a little, I'm very tolerant but it's because I find them really entertaining not because I'm worried about negatively effecting drives. 

I'm sure all of us know handlers that are really hard on puppies - they go through a lot of dogs, but never learn. They just curse their bad luck or curse the breeders!


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## Pauline Michels (Sep 1, 2006)

Connie said: "Oh, thank heaven you weren't off taking some kind of sensitivity training or something." 

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Catalina Valencia (Feb 20, 2008)

Pups are not born knowing the meaning of the word No and you have to teach it as soon as the pup arrives home because in that exact moment they start to chew on things and get in troubles. If a pup is about to chew on the TV cord you need him to know that NO means stop whatever you are doing immediately. It's naive to think you can leave pups only to be pups with no corrections at all and only redirecting. I need a No when pup wants to jump off of the car before I grab the leash, I need a No when pup wants to peek over the balcony in the fifth floor, I need a No when pup wants to play with a beer can she found in the floor and is about to tear her mouth , and I need a No on all those situations when even in the most close of supervisions half a second can mean a disaster. Then... I teach what "no" means and in an 8 weeks pup it is no more than grab the pup by the neck skin (not harshly and definitely not shaking, just a gently but firm grabbing). It is a natural correction and the pups understand them like that freezing and often dropping with what they have in the mouth and after it we are as friend as before. If the association is big enough for the pup to freeze and drop as soon as they hear the No it can be a lifesaver later when they are no longer babies but rambunctious and adventurous.

Corrections can be left off of formal training until much later and manners can be flaky until the pup knows better what is expected of him, but in a non perfect and sometimes dangerous world you need a No that means something without the need of the owner yelling or getting mad.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Catalina Valencia said:


> Then... I teach what "no" means and in an 8 weeks pup it is no more than grab the pup by the neck skin (not harshly and definitely not shaking, just a gently but firm grabbing).


Uh, with my new girl, that was asking to get bitten, which I did get bit several times by trying to teach her "no" like that. I think it depends on the dog, and I am not much of a scruffer anyway. 

By switching to food and positive reinforcement, she is MUCH, MUCH better at leaving things alone. And she also does not do the "forbidden" stuff near as much because she knows what will get her what she wants, which is some kind of high value food reward, or a good game of tug.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

"Uh, with my new girl, that was asking to get bitten, which I did get bit several times by trying to teach her "no" like that. I think it depends on the dog, and I am not much of a scruffer anyway."

If you have a young pup taking a Bite, shoving a treat in it's face is not addressing the underlying behavior problem that can often get much worse when the dog gets older. I like to address the Mouthy stuff when the dog is 15 lbs rather than 60 to 100 lbs.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Kyle Sprag said:


> "Uh, with my new girl, that was asking to get bitten, which I did get bit several times by trying to teach her "no" like that. I think it depends on the dog, and I am not much of a scruffer anyway."
> 
> If you have a young pup taking a Bite, shoving a treat in it's face is not addressing the underlying behavior problem that can often get much worse when the dog gets older. I like to address the Mouthy stuff when the dog is 15 lbs rather than 60 to 100 lbs.


Yes, we are addressing it, and we have not had an issue with her throwing a tantrum for 4 and a half weeks now. I got her at 12 weeks old. 
I can take her toys or food from her if I want or need to, when she goes up to something that is off-limits and I say "leave it" she comes to me and sits or I engage her in a game of tug or fetch. 

I also do not "shove" the treats into her face. 

Just because I am not yank and cranking her does not mean she is not learning. She is doing just fine.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I use the method that's best for that particular dog. I don't "always" do anything. I redirect A LOT !! Call me "naive" but I'm not worried about addressing underlying issues with a mouthy puppy, and so far it hasn't come back to bite me in the ass with any of my working line GSDs.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Susan you make good points, I guess it comes down to where, when and the reason the pup is mouthy for me.


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

Thanks for the feedback. 

In my opinion a dog either has drive or it doesn't. Some limited and mild corrections on a couple undesired behaviors are not going to diminish these traits. 

I raised my current ppd, Jake, with a lot of compulsion and discipline from an early age because that was the way I was taught to do it. Now I know differently. Nevertheless, Jake will look for a ball that he thinks I have thrown into a field seemingly forever. The last time I did it he looked for an hour and was still looking when I decided it was time to pack it in. So I am not convinced that the "let the pup run wild" philosophy is a necessary one or even a good one. Like one other poster stated, a pup certainly receives some direction from older dogs in the pack so it's not as if it's unnatural for a pup to receive at least some discipline. 

Anyhow, that's my take. Thanks again for sharing yours.


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## Catalina Valencia (Feb 20, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> I use the method that's best for that particular dog. I don't "always" do anything. I redirect A LOT !! Call me "naive" but I'm not worried about addressing underlying issues with a mouthy puppy, and so far it hasn't come back to bite me in the ass with any of my working line GSDs.


I do redirect 99% of the time too. If the mouthing is playful I redirect like you... at least sometimes, I have grown the tough skin of a pig on my arms by now and most of the time I don't even bother  (but if my pup bite me because I touch any part of the body that is an entirely different matter) I didn't mean that redirect is naive, it IS a great training tool and the one of choice when to mouthing comes. What I mean is that no corrections at all is no possible in a real world, unless you plan to raise a pup in a bed of cottons, but surely it wouldn't be so good for socialization.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I agree, and I have been known to correct a puppy, but for the most part I let them "run wild".


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Carol Boche said:


> Yes, we are addressing it, and we have not had an issue with her throwing a tantrum for 4 and a half weeks now. I got her at 12 weeks old.
> I can take her toys or food from her if I want or need to, when she goes up to something that is off-limits and I say "leave it" she comes to me and sits or I engage her in a game of tug or fetch.
> 
> I also do not "shove" the treats into her face.
> ...


Carol, I applaud what your doing!
We want tough, serious dogs then knock them on their ass when they show us what they are made of. It's a leadership issue. You don't have to out muscle a pup to convince it who runs the game. Of course they'll fight us if we start the fight. If they do something we don't want them to, teach them to do what we want. Dogs view the world in black or white. Humans try and break that down into shades of grey. If the dog is creating problems it's because it doesn't understand something, NOT because it's refusing to do it.
I've said in the past that, IMHO, aggression towards a handler is a created situation.
Understanding the difference between "shoving a treat in her face" (bribe) and guiding and imprinting with food is where the problem can start. 
I don't make these statements to change anyone's mind. That's like insulting a race, religion, etc. I make them because I see it work every time I go to club and train. I see dogs of all temperments and levels of aggression that respond to leadership without the need to fight back.
Again, this is all JMHO!


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

So when is the magic age where the buck stops here? Ya'll can call me a newb if you like, but if the puppy's delicate sensibility is being so offended that it cannot take some pack drive type correction without its working drive being permanently crushed, that's probably not a pup I'd want too awful much anyways. Not saying smack the snot out of them for every infringement, but laying a good set of ground rules and expectations from the get go makes more sense to me and my wee brain than saying at some pre-ordained time, "okay, now we have pack rules of the house to live by." :-s Being manipulative how you do it is one thing, but the running wild thing, eh...I guess it wouldn't work so well in my house, even if it works for others. *shrug* Probably also depends if you have your dogs in the house versus outside.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

well shucks.......

Thanks Bob..... \\/


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

I just want to add that I do not "baby" any of my dogs. The 5 of them know the rules of the house and Ember (#6) is learning. 
There is no way that she is delicate at all. Quite the opposite. Do I correct? Well, yes. The whole kitchen counter episode was corrected. 

I follow the "pack leadership rule" if you will and she gets a ton of exercise and time with me. I still tether her to me most of the time but she does get free time in the same room that I am in. 

To me it is a balance, and with learning the purely positive stuff, it is a delicate balance. 

What works for some of us may not work for others. My older Mal is trained with way more "because I say so" training than I should have used. Did not kill any of her drive to work at all but she does seem to wait for correction when doing obedience work, so I have switched it and am doing the positive training with her and she is better. 

Do I think there is a time and place for correction, yes I do. But I think the dog needs to know what they are being corrected for. If you ask a 12 week old pup to sit and they don't, do you pull up and back on the lead or force their ass to the ground? Some do, and Lord knows I have. 
When a puppy throws a hissy fit because your scruffing them and it turns into a "take them to the floor" because they are so pissed they are not going to back down, and if they do relax and you let them up, they come at you again....what has that accomplished? Nothing, it is a never ending circle IMHO. 

With positive reinforcement, the pup learns and most importantly, has FUN learning and that creates a willingness in the dog to want to work for you...because it is fun and rewarding. Not because they know that they better do it OR ELSE.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

You're absolutely right, Carol, it is a delicate balance. Incidentally, I rarely correct with more than a no reward marker (which I guess isn't a correction?) when I'm training for something. Usually nothing more than a "no" for a verbal correction. But if they're just being insufferable snots in the house about something more on the "behavior" side of things and less on the "training" side (knowing all too well they overlap, yes, I know), we'll have an occasional serious discussion on why my way is the highway.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

insufferable snots - puppies ???? NEVER !!!!!! :^o :^o


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

Catalina Valencia said:


> Pups are not born knowing the meaning of the word No and you have to teach it as soon as the pup arrives home because in that exact moment they start to chew on things and get in troubles. If a pup is about to chew on the TV cord you need him to know that NO means stop whatever you are doing immediately. It's naive to think you can leave pups only to be pups with no corrections at all and only redirecting. I need a No when pup wants to jump off of the car before I grab the leash, I need a No when pup wants to peek over the balcony in the fifth floor, I need a No when pup wants to play with a beer can she found in the floor and is about to tear her mouth , and I need a No on all those situations when even in the most close of supervisions half a second can mean a disaster. Then... I teach what "no" means and in an 8 weeks pup it is no more than grab the pup by the neck skin (not harshly and definitely not shaking, just a gently but firm grabbing). It is a natural correction and the pups understand them like that freezing and often dropping with what they have in the mouth and after it we are as friend as before. If the association is big enough for the pup to freeze and drop as soon as they hear the No it can be a lifesaver later when they are no longer babies but rambunctious and adventurous.
> 
> Corrections can be left off of formal training until much later and manners can be flaky until the pup knows better what is expected of him, but in a non perfect and sometimes dangerous world you need a No that means something without the need of the owner yelling or getting mad.


My last pup still isn't allowed in the house with out a leash..... He investigates and grabs anything and everything..... Wild Man Havok the Destroyer...... Beer cans heck he will still jump on the kitchen counters and grab the coffee pot if I let him..... Nothing is safe that is near his reach. He knows what NO means, I just don't want to tell him NO every 5 seconds so we just don't go there. Heck last week he was loose for a few minutes and climbed on top of the kitchen table in the blink of an eye to destroy my daughters hoodie...LOL

I do have a family room that he is allowed in off leash. Leather sofa and completely puppy proof. Where we hang out for a little bit each day bit otherwise he is in the back yard, kennel, or crate where he is safe. When he gets older & wiser he will be allowed to hang out in the rest of the house.


Julie


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I've only gotten in the last month or so (he's 10 months old) where I can have Fawkes loose in the house in the living room, dining room, and kitchen only if I'm in the office with the door open for a little bit. Still sleeps in the crate at night. The good thing about keeping him in the crate for long periods when he was younger is that he doesn't want to grab every single little thing as he's been imprinted to chew on the good stuff and not so much on other stuff. Now, granted, he'll still grab inappropriate stuff, but compared to Zoso the other pup I raised, he's not near as destructive. Or maybe I'm just more vigilant.  *knocks on wood*


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