# Civil Agitation



## Kevin Powell

I think most will agree that during civil agitation it is extemely important that the decoy is constantly aware and monitoring how far to push the dog and that the dog feels that it wins every time. For those of you that have decoys agitate your dog without equipment on, how long do you find your dog being agitated before the decoy submits to the dog? Also, what do your dogs require before feeling that they have driven off the threat? For example, do your dogs require that the decoy completely turn heel and run out of sight before coming out of defensive drive or will they begin to relax once the decoy simply gazes away, turns his stance sideways, or backs up a few steps? I know this will be different for each dog and I am not looking to apply the answers to my own situation, I am just curious where each of your dogs stand in this scenario.


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## Dick van Leeuwen

What is your goal using civil agitation?


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## Mike Scheiber

There is no recipe for a helper. A good helper has a big tool box and needs to now his tools and recognise what he is working on. These are a dog by dog basis question's


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## Howard Gaines III

Kevin I don't put a time on the civil work. It isn't about time, IMO, it's about how well the dog responds and DOESN'T just play the game. You can yell, kick dirt, throw plastic bottles, spit, or any other approach to this. If the dog just stands there like a stick and doesn't reply with some positive effort, I would say you're wasting time. Look into those eyes and watch the rest of the non-verbals, then you'll have a better answer. I have worked some dogs that weren't big talkers, but walk into his strike zone and pay a toothy price! :-o 

Civil work and K-9 "conversation" can be easly misread. Shy-sharp dogs can put up a front in this area. Get into their comfort zone and they fall apart. Some strong dogs may back up a few feet, lure you into their strike zone, and then rock your world. I was just talking to an old friend this morning at Wal-Mart about this very thing. What are you looking for with the action and how old is the animal you are working? Too many factors can bring about different responses to the same form of agitation, and at different times.


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## Dan Long

Do you really believe a dog will back up to get you into his strike zone? Personally I think that is BS. If a dog is backing up it's avoiding, not baiting you to come closer. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me that a strong dog is going to be at the end of the line trying to get at the person who is agitatiing him. Maybe a dog is strong in some situations but when pushed civilly, they start to show avoidance by backing up like that.


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## Kyle Sprag

Dan Long said:


> Do you really believe a dog will back up to get you into his strike zone? Personally I think that is BS. If a dog is backing up it's avoiding, not baiting you to come closer. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me that a strong dog is going to be at the end of the line trying to get at the person who is agitatiing him. Maybe a dog is strong in some situations but when pushed civilly, they start to show avoidance by backing up like that.


Depends on the dog, I had one that would bait you in if he was restrained, off lead he was going to punish you.


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## Dan Long

So what happens if the decoy doesn't move in? Does the dog stay back or does he come back out for more?


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## Kyle Sprag

More What? if the dog is restrained he has learned and knows that he can't get at the helper unless the helper comes in.


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## Dan Long

More action. Say your dog backs up to bait the decoy in. The decoy doesn't take the bait. Now you are at a standoff. Does the dog go back out to the end of the line and engage the decoy, or does he just stay there playing a waiting game with the decoy? Do you give him a command to get him to go back out to the end of the line? If the decoy continues agitating but doesn't come any closer, what does the dog do, stay back? I'm just wondering how you read it and how you get the desired result from the dog. To me if he backs up and the decoy doesn't come in, I'd want him back out going after the decoy right away.


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## David Frost

I'm confused, are you discussing a training technique. Why not just release the dog and tell him to bite. I don't understand the part of not allowing him to get to the person. If you want to work "civil" can't you use a muzzle and see how that goes? Ours are required to sit in the heel position until sent, I don't want them going forward or backward unless I tell him. 

DFrost


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Do you really believe a dog will back up to get you into his strike zone?

Yes.

I am curious, since you are obviously doing PP work, why does the dog need to be at the end of the line ???? I would like to hear your theory on that, as well as why a dog wouldn't want to bait you in ? ? ? As a side note, some dogs just figure that out, and some are just left on a backtie to long and figure it out. OK not well written there, just put me down that I believe the backtie is part of the problem.

As far as civil aggitation, I have had and seen too many dogs that never had civil aggitation, and these dogs would, and did nail people with or without equipment. I do not see "civil" aggitation as something that is necessary.


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## Kyle Sprag

David Frost said:


> I'm confused, are you discussing a training technique. Why not just release the dog and tell him to bite. I don't understand the part of not allowing him to get to the person. If you want to work "civil" can't you use a muzzle and see how that goes? Ours are required to sit in the heel position until sent, I don't want them going forward or backward unless I tell him.
> 
> DFrost


 
I agree with this, if I really wanted to see the Character of the dog I would want to see how he/she behaves on the loosing end of a Muzzle fight.


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## Kevin Powell

After re-reading my original post I thought it might be helpful to give an expample of where my questioning is coming from. While the decoy (without equiptment on) is agressively approaching myself and my dog I inform him at about 15 feet to please step back or the dog will bite. Once the decoy is approximately 10 feet away and still advancing agressively, my dog will light up on the decoy as he has been trained. At this point the decoy challenges the dog constantly reading his posturing and demeanor. Ultimately, the decoy submits to the dog by resuming a normal stance, gazing away, and stepping back about 5 feet. At that point my dog stops barking and ceases all agression. You can tell that he is comfortable that the threat no longer exists. However, under the same scenario some dogs I have witnessed will continue with their show of agression even after the decoys steps back a few feet, gazes away, and submits to the dog. In fact, they don't stop until the decoy actually goes out of sight behind a blind or comletely turns his back and walks away. I just wanted to know how others on this forum see dogs react under a similar situation. When do they find their dogs ceasing to show agression? I know that each dog will be different as the nerves of each dog determine what they perceive as threats or not. I'm just trying to find out what other experience with their dogs to see which is more common.


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## Kevin Powell

Kyle Sprag said:


> I agree with this, if I really wanted to see the Character of the dog I would want to see how he/she behaves on the loosing end of a Muzzle fight.


Kyle, why would you want to subject any dog to the losing end of a muzzle fight? My dog ALWAYS wins in training. To do otherwise would crush confidence more than likely ruin the dog.


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## Kyle Sprag

Kevin Powell said:


> After re-reading my original post I thought it might be helpful to give an expample of where my questioning is coming from. While the decoy (without equiptment on) is agressively approaching myself and my dog I inform him at about 15 feet to please step back or the dog will bite. Once the decoy is approximately 10 feet away and still advancing agressively, my dog will light up on the decoy as he has been trained. At this point the decoy challenges the dog constantly reading his posturing and demeanor. Ultimately, the decoy submits to the dog by resuming a normal stance, gazing away, and stepping back about 5 feet. At that point my dog stops barking and ceases all agression. You can tell that he is comfortable that the threat no longer exists. However, under the same scenario some dogs I have witnessed will continue with their show of agression even after the decoys steps back a few feet, gazes away, and submits to the dog. In fact, they don't stop until the decoy actually goes out of sight behind a blind or comletely turns his back and walks away. I just wanted to know how others on this forum see dogs react under a similar situation. When do they find their dogs ceasing to show agression? I know that each dog will be different as the nerves of each dog determine what they perceive as threats or not. I'm just trying to find out what other experience with their dogs to see which is more common.


IMO this is more a learned behavior than anything else, has nothing to do with the dog.


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## Kyle Sprag

Kevin Powell said:


> Kyle, why would you want to subject any dog to the losing end of a muzzle fight? My dog ALWAYS wins in training. To do otherwise would crush confidence more than likely ruin the dog.


This is more testing than training.


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## Kevin Powell

Kyle, you are correct. It is definately a behavior that could be trained. I could teach him to bark and show agression until the decoy got into his car and drove out the driveway but the dog still wouldn't be working in defensive drive. It is fairly clear in watching my dog work when he is agressivly barking for real because he perceives an actual threat and when he is just putting on a show because of a command. For example, if the decoy ceases to act agressively and my dog stops barking I can command my dog to begin putting on a show of agression again without the decoy doing anything but it does not look the same.


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## Kyle Sprag

Kevin Powell said:


> Kyle, you are correct. It is definately a behavior that could be trained. I could teach him to bark and show agression until the decoy got into his car and drove out the driveway but the dog still wouldn't be working in defensive drive. It is fairly clear in watching my dog work when he is agressivly barking for real because he perceives an actual threat and when he is just putting on a show because of a command. For example, if the decoy ceases to act agressively and my dog stops barking I can command my dog to begin putting on a show of agression again without the decoy doing anything but it does not look the same.


Does he percieve a threat or a challenge? Is it defense or active agression?


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## Kevin Powell

Kyle, I assumed he was working in defense or re-active agression during the excercise I am referring to because he is lighting up without any commands or actions on my part and ceasing them on his own once he perceives the threat to be gone. He seems to just always act that way once the decoy enters that certain zone. However, I am honest enough with myself to say that I could be wrong. I have seen a few times with this dog an even more serious and confident bark when working him in a different excercise and I assumed that he was working in active agression or fight drive at that point but I didn't see it here in the excercise that I described. I am going to have to re enact the scenario this upcoming week and get some additional opinions. Good point.


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## Patrick Murray

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I do not see "civil" aggitation as something that is necessary.


Hey Jeff. If someone wants a dog to be "'civil" (such as a ppd dog) then I think it is absolutely necessary to give the dog not only "civil" agitation but civil bitework as well. That's just my opinion; I might be wrong. Just keep in mind the infamous video of the British (?) police K-9 running down the street alongside a criminal but wouldn't bite him, probably because the criminal wasn't wearing a sleeve. So, in my opinion, if one ever wants their dog to be prepared to bite someone for real then civil agitation and bite work is a must. Again, that's just my opinion and I might be dead wrong. Heck, I'm wrong all the time. Just ask my wife!


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## Patrick Murray

Hi Kevin. I'd like to respond to your initial post in this thread. Before I do, let me just advise you (and anyone else reading) that I am just an amateur working dog "enthusiast". In other words, I know just enough to be dangerous.  

Anyway, I LOVE good, real-world PPD dogs. What I mean by "'real-world" is a dog that is a part of the handler's normal environment and will bite for real but is also absolutely stable in all situations. 

I also believe, in my novice opinion, that a "real-world" dog MUST be worked in a "real-world" manner. In other words, civil agitation is a must as is civil bitework (hidden sleeves, hidden suit, muzzle work). 

I believe the process is very gradual. A person not wearing any bite equipment could, for example, walk up to your window. As the man is approaching a hander would give the pup a "watch" command and do it in a "suspicious" tone of voice. Once the pup looks up at the man, the man responds in a visible state of fright and submission and then quickly retreats. I would definitely change the location of this exercise and NOT always do it from the same spot as you don't want to teach the pup that everybody that walks up to your window is a threat. I would NEVER allow the "decoy" to challenge the pup, ever. Not only is the pup unbeaten but also unchallenged. 

Once the dog has matured and is biting well on sleeves and is receiving some "pressure" from the decoy and winning, I would then also gradually introduce some civil challenges. I think you want to couple the two as the dog matures. The civil work and bite work should all be done in prey, no pressure on the pup and the pup is unbeaten and unchallenged. At the right time in the dog's maturity then pressure can be gradually introduced. 

Again, this is just my opinion on how I have done it and seen it done in the past. But maybe there's a better way to do it. If so, I'd love to hear it and learn. Thanks.


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## Howard Knauf

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I am curious, since you are obviously doing PP work, why does the dog need to be at the end of the line ???? I would like to hear your theory on that, .


 Jeff,
Have you ever heard of the 21 foot rule? It doesn't apply just to the police. You can absolutely justify having your dog at the end of the line in a self defense situation.

Howard


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## Gerry Grimwood

Patrick Murray said:


> . Just keep in mind the infamous video of the British (?) police K-9 running down the street alongside a criminal but wouldn't bite him, probably because the criminal wasn't wearing a sleeve. So, in my opinion, if one ever wants their dog to be prepared to bite someone for real then civil agitation and bite work is a must.


Oh, that happens more than you probably think, watch the dog.

http://canwest.a.mms.mavenapps.net/...f66&maven_referralObject=3043430&vc=1&popup=1

Go to top stories and then Malbourough standoff.


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## Patrick Murray

Thanks Gerry but I'm not finding the video.


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## Kevin Powell

Patrick, the link works. Click on the Global Calgary Top Stories section on the homepage then scroll down to Malborough Standoff and click on that. The video should start right up after the 30 sec commercial.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: As far as civil aggitation, I have had and seen too many dogs that never had civil aggitation, and these dogs would, and did nail people with or without equipment. I do not see "civil" aggitation as something that is necessary.


That is exactly what I meant with my former question (wich no one felt nescesary to answer...:???: )

When properly trained, no dog needs civil agitation to bite civil. Of course you train civil work, but you don't need the agitation. If you want to test the dog, so you can see if he's couragious enough, you don't need the civil, you can also do that in a normal suit.

We learn the dog to bite here in a total passive situation on command. But first this should be trained at the suit.
When the dog knows how to do that and responds at your command in any circomstance to bite at your command, you can do the same in civil.

Any good dog will bite at civil agitation. It's no diffence as learning a young dog to bite at the suit, so you won't see anything new.

So the agitationpart is a waste of energy in my opinion.

regards
Dick


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## Dan Long

Kevin Powell said:


> After re-reading my original post I thought it might be helpful to give an expample of where my questioning is coming from. While the decoy (without equiptment on) is agressively approaching myself and my dog I inform him at about 15 feet to please step back or the dog will bite. Once the decoy is approximately 10 feet away and still advancing agressively, my dog will light up on the decoy as he has been trained. At this point the decoy challenges the dog constantly reading his posturing and demeanor. Ultimately, the decoy submits to the dog by resuming a normal stance, gazing away, and stepping back about 5 feet. At that point my dog stops barking and ceases all agression.


This is how I'd expect my dog to react. Once the decoy becomes passive and is no longer a threat, the dog stops barking and returns to my side but is still watchful as to the actions of the decoy. 

Jeff you asked why the dog should be at the end of the line. To me, this is where I want him. When I give him a watch command, I want him hitting the end of the line full throttle, being aggressive, trying to pull me towards the target. Not backing up to allow the "bad guy" to come closer to me. I understand how backing up can be a learned response for the dog, from back tie work and the like, but it's not really a behavior I want in my dog. Other people may differ.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Dan, I definately cluster****ed my answer to you, should of basically said it was more than likely a trainng problem.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote : So the agitationpart is a waste of energy in my opinion.


I have found this part of the eternal longing for the dog that is all that and then some, as if some sort of training is going to make it happen. Pasrt of the myth so to speak.

For me, and I am never wrong,=D> =D> it is all in the dog. You just cannot polish a turd, and civil aggitation is exactly that,............well that and you don't have to run around with a suit on, so it is lazy as well. So, the final thought is lazy aggitator with shit on the hands.

I would love to see you guys argue with Dick, this will be a lot of fun. Go ahead, give it a shot Patrick ! ! ! ! !:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Kevin Powell

Those are some good points Dick. I should have answered your question earlier but by the time I logged in there were so many posts since then I didn't know if I would throw off the thread by answering at that time. I'm new to forums and haven't quite figured out the proper etiquette yet. :wink: To answer your question, the goal that I am trying to accomplish by using civil agitation is two fold. First, that responding to agression with agression is an appropiate and acceptable response, whether or not protective equipment is visible. Secondly, to focus on the man and not the suit or the sleeve. Basically, teaching him that the man is making the suit/sleeve move and not the other way around. Thanks for your input.



Selena van Leeuwen said:


> That is exactly what I meant with my former question (wich no one felt nescesary to answer...:???: )
> 
> When properly trained, no dog needs civil agitation to bite civil. Of course you train civil work, but you don't need the agitation. If you want to test the dog, so you can see if he's couragious enough, you don't need the civil, you can also do that in a normal suit.
> 
> We learn the dog to bite here in a total passive situation on command. But first this should be trained at the suit.
> When the dog knows how to do that and responds at your command in any circomstance to bite at your command, you can do the same in civil.
> 
> Any good dog will bite at civil agitation. It's no diffence as learning a young dog to bite at the suit, so you won't see anything new.
> 
> So the agitationpart is a waste of energy in my opinion.
> 
> regards
> Dick


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## Patrick Murray

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I would love to see you guys argue with Dick, this will be a lot of fun. Go ahead, give it a shot Patrick ! ! ! ! !:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


Sorry Jeff. No argument here. If Dick says it's not needed then that's good enough for me. 

I am curious about something and perhaps Dick or another can answer this question. Let's get back to the PSD dog that wouldn't bite the bad guy. What should be done to fix it?


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## Howard Knauf

Patrick Murray said:


> Let's get back to the PSD dog that wouldn't bite the bad guy. What should be done to fix it?


 Muzzle work on a decoy with no equipment. Covert sleeve work.


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## Howard Gaines III

Dan you have seen these dogs. Andy's and Vernon's. I hardly think that these dogs lack confidence. The backing up from the leash and still ready to go is the dog's way of pulling/baiting you into the strike zone. It knows the end of the leash, it knows YOU aren't coming in, and if it backs up so that you come in...you're had! I have seen this done by several dogs and it wasn't a case that civil agitation had them fearful!!! 

When Vernon's GS strikes, it's the real deal. No fear in that dawg! It is a game in how to bring you into the strike area and nothing more. IF and I say IF, a dog backs up out of fear, then that is a different training issue. You don't need to go civil with a dog to make them want to bite. They either have it or they don't. Civil, IMO, is just another testing technique to help strengthen what is there. Andy's Rottie did this 2 years ago, I saw it and told him, "I've seen this move before." 

I also don't see a passive decoy/person as not being a threat. As long as the "bad guy" stands, breaths, or has control of the thinking process, they could be a threat. How many cops have ever put there guard down when the bad guy "acted" compliant, only to get sucker punched or have a firearm pulled on them? Then it becomes a new issue, how to survive! It's hard to fight in cuffs. How easy would it be for a "passive" decoy or street thug to walk away and not follow orders, roll the hand into the waistband and pull a pistol? Very easy and still being in the "PASSIVE" mode prior to the gunfire or punch.

If you think about how swords are made; it takes heat to form the layers of a sword. It also takes cold water to make the steel hard, tempering. Civil agitation only readys the dog for the verbal and physical issues the dog will see in a street scenario. If it doesn't have the genetics to do this, I don't think all of the time and training will make it into the tool which is needed. Spam is made from pork, but only ham is the best cut of the hog. \\/


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## Howard Gaines III

Patrick Murray said:


> Let's get back to the PSD dog that wouldn't bite the bad guy. What should be done to fix it?


 
My questions would be: If it isn't biting the bad guy, why is it being PSD trained? Where was the puppy or young dog foundation work? How was it trained? What avoidance issues did it show and how was the problem overcome? It didn't just happen over night...[-X 
Going back to a great statement, "You can't put 12 ounces in a 20 ounce bottle." You can only go as far as the thing can physically and mentally go, no more.](*,)


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## Gerry Grimwood

Howard Gaines III said:


> "You can't put 12 ounces in a 20 ounce bottle.


It must be after 5 pm in Delaware.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Howard K tell me the 21 foot rule, as I think that any and all rules should be out there for all to learn about.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote : If you think about how swords are made; it takes heat to form the layers of a sword. It also takes cold water to make the steel hard, tempering.


You use oil, for quenching, not cold water. Some use heat over an extended period of time for tempering, some use hyper cold temps, like liquid oxygen. Cold water is useless for tempering, like "civil" aggitation. Sorry Gaines, that was too easy.

Patrick, it all goes back to the dog, and it's character, and all the training in the world will not do much if the character is weak. If you cannot tell what kind of dog you have.............](*,) 

Conversely, much of the training is of little use, and more to bolster the confidence of the owner than the dog. We have all watched as a fully protected "man" throws a dog into tables and chairs and hits the dog over and over, as the dog hangs on enduring this abuse in the name of TRAINING.


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## Howard Knauf

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Howard K tell me the 21 foot rule, as I think that any and all rules should be out there for all to learn about.


 The 21 foot rule as taught in law enforcement defensive tactics....." That distance in which an attacker can cover before a defensive weapon can be deployed...approximately 1 1/2 seconds".

So...given that we are allowed self defense in the U.S. (fortunately), and are able to use up to deadly force to protect us, and ours...The 21 foot rule applies to everyone. 

I'd rather have the dog engage at 6 ft or more to give me time to react than wait till the guy is inside my comfort zone of 2 feet where he can inflict damage for sure.

The 21 ft rule...there it is?\\/ What say you now?8)

BTW, Taser has now gone to a longer reaching projectile because there is some debate that the 21 foot rule only applies to highly trained defensive persons, most of which are not (Even the police)

Howard


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## Al Curbow

That video was from England wasn't it? Who knows, maybe the dog was a detection dog and not dual purpose and the guy let him go anyway, lol. The dog certainly looked happy.


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## Howard Knauf

I'm on a forum based in the UK. There was a huge discussion on that incident. I'm told that the dog has had numerous physical apprehension since that catastrophe and has turned out to be a good dog.

Has anyone seen the FLIR video from the Brevard County S.O. of a K9 chase? The video placed second in a FLIR competition but the subject matter was sad.

Howard


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## Gerry Grimwood

Al, that video was not from England, on the same page where the video is there is a damage control video called K9 success where the dog is described as a 2 yr old on its first shift.

That may be true and I'm not disrespecting the dog or people involved, but in that type of situation where the media is hanging around with mouths watering, why would they use that opportunity to test out a first street bite ??


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## Howard Knauf

Gerry Grimwood said:


> That may be true and I'm not disrespecting the dog or people involved, but in that type of situation where the media is hanging around with mouths watering, why would they use that opportunity to test out a first street bite ??


 They may not have had a choice. If its the same one I saw before then the video is taken from a few of the thousands of CCTV cameras they have there.


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## Gerry Grimwood

This happened last week in Calgary.


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## Howard Knauf

Not the same then.


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## David Frost

Howard Knauf said:


> Muzzle work on a decoy with no equipment. Covert sleeve work.


Absoulutley. That dog, for whatever reason wasn't prepared to work the street. While many dogs, on their first street bite, will become confused, if they've been prepared properly, they work it out really quick, during that first confrontation.

DFrost


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## Dan Long

Howard Gaines III said:


> Dan you have seen these dogs. Andy's and Vernon's. I hardly think that these dogs lack confidence. The backing up from the leash and still ready to go is the dog's way of pulling/baiting you into the strike zone. It knows the end of the leash, it knows YOU aren't coming in, and if it backs up so that you come in...you're had! I have seen this done by several dogs and it wasn't a case that civil agitation had them fearful!!!
> 
> When Vernon's GS strikes, it's the real deal. No fear in that dawg! It is a game in how to bring you into the strike area and nothing more. IF and I say IF, a dog backs up out of fear, then that is a different training issue. You don't need to go civil with a dog to make them want to bite. They either have it or they don't. Civil, IMO, is just another testing technique to help strengthen what is there. Andy's Rottie did this 2 years ago, I saw it and told him, "I've seen this move before."
> 
> I also don't see a passive decoy/person as not being a threat. As long as the "bad guy" stands, breaths, or has control of the thinking process, they could be a threat. How many cops have ever put there guard down when the bad guy "acted" compliant, only to get sucker punched or have a firearm pulled on them? Then it becomes a new issue, how to survive! It's hard to fight in cuffs. How easy would it be for a "passive" decoy or street thug to walk away and not follow orders, roll the hand into the waistband and pull a pistol? Very easy and still being in the "PASSIVE" mode prior to the gunfire or punch.
> 
> If you think about how swords are made; it takes heat to form the layers of a sword. It also takes cold water to make the steel hard, tempering. Civil agitation only readys the dog for the verbal and physical issues the dog will see in a street scenario. If it doesn't have the genetics to do this, I don't think all of the time and training will make it into the tool which is needed. Spam is made from pork, but only ham is the best cut of the hog. \\/


Howard of course I've seen those dogs and they are certainly not lacking in confidence and I'm in no way questioning their abilities. Civil agitation aside, the scenario is, the dogs know they can't get to the decoy because of the leash. They back up to bait the decoy in. As the decoys, you guys always go in to give the dog what he wants. What if you DON'T do that? What if you just stood there, still agitating? What will the dog do then? If you are giving a watch command should that not mean out at the end of the line, trying to get the decoy?


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## Bob Scott

I'm missing something here.
Unless you want the dog to bite a passive target then it's done it's job as a PPD if the bad guy stays out of range. Doesn't matter if he's sitting at your side or on his hind legs. 
Unless you are LEO with a K9, the threat is all you need if that keeps the ahole away. If it doesn't keep him away then you don't have a passive biting situation and the correct dog will engage. 
Passive bites in the general society are a lawyer's wet dream. 
I've also commented in the past that if you sincerely need a PPD then you also need a gun.
I'd rather take my chances shooting the twit instead of loosing my dog in a court room. :-o


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## Kyle Sprag

I believe passive bites are Very important, same is I think the Auto out is Silly.


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## Bob Scott

As a civilian I'll agree about the auto out! I teach it cause it's a sport thing. 
Also as a civilian, the passive bite will only land you in court. Again, if the bad guy is passive, the dog has done it's job as a PPD. :wink:


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## Kyle Sprag

Man standing behind you with a gun at an ATM. Passive and quiet says give me your money and wallet?

You are most likely to wind up in court in any bite situation. Who's to say he wasn't moving? Movement doesn't mean intent.


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## Bob Scott

Kyle Sprag said:


> Man standing behind you with a gun at an ATM. Passive and quiet says give me your money and wallet?
> 
> You are most likely to wind up in court in any bite situation. Who's to say he wasn't moving? Movement doesn't mean intent.


Why didn't the dog alert on someone walking up behind you? That's what PPD dogs are supposed to do, correct? If you left him in the car the bad guy is way ahead of the game, particularly if he has a gun in your back. At the very least the bad guy has to be nuts to walk up behind someone with a very threatening dog (always a possibility) course he has the gun so why not just shoot the dog first? 
We can "what if'" one another to death. We'll have to agree to disagree on this one.


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## Mike Schoonbrood

ATM's don't usually dispense more than $500-$600 and not many people get that much out of an ATM anyway. Personally.... if someone walks up to me with a gun at an ATM, I'll give him the <$500. My life and my dogs life is worth much more than that to me.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Patrick Murray said:


> Sorry Jeff. No argument here. If Dick says it's not needed then that's good enough for me.
> 
> I am curious about something and perhaps Dick or another can answer this question. Let's get back to the PSD dog that wouldn't bite the bad guy. What should be done to fix it?


At first, was the dog ready for streetwork.
Second, is the dog suitable at all as a working policedog (for Dutch standards anyway, because it's difficult to have an opinion about the the standards in other countries)

In answer of the first question;
He certainly wasn't. But I know for sure this is a big trainingproblem in the UK, where the dogs MUST bite in the arm and some policeforces even just train with some sort of IPO sleeve. Often it comes no further than a lot of "playfull" preydrive and wanting to have the sleeve. That also maybe the reason why the dog is running "playfull" with the suspect, like he is waiting for his "toy" to play with. 
Anyway I don't for sure know what training this dog had but it sure was not trained properly for the street. Trainingmethods we use here in Holland can not be used in the UK because colluaeges will get in trouble with all sorts of rules, laws and of course the animal wellfare organisation in the UK.
I know, some colluaeges who expand their view in other countries, want very much to change that, but they have difficulties to change the "culture" of policedogtraining in their policedistricts.

So, what should I do with this dog for solving thist problem.
You have to start totally over in training this dog, use different drives, different methods and then there is still the question, can this be done with that dog. 
I don't know. If you should judge by only seeing this vid. the answer would probebly be no, but that's not fair. You must see the dog in other circomstances to have a fair opinion about this dog.
I'll never judge to easy over a dog. I DO about training methods.

regards,
Dick


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## Dick van Leeuwen

Back on topic again..

With civil agitation as training for a working policedog you let the iniatif with the dog, because you just let the the dog respond to the agitation.
In my opinion should in policepractice the handler be the one to direct and not the dog.
It is easy to let a good dog bite someone who makes a lot of noise and/or threaten them. My 7 mo. old Bassie will do that, even with lack of biting experience on a suit, but that doesn't make his ready as a working policedog (yet). To test a dog if he has the heart to be one isn't necessary in civil, but can also be done in a suit. there is no advantage in doing that civil.

Going back at who directs who in the street and training situation. We train it like this.
We start with a dog who knows his " suit-work" .
At first the dog should learn to bite on command at a passive decoy in a suit. When you are sure he bite the decoy in suit in every circumstance, you can start with the " civil-decoy".
We do not only use a hidden sleeve or hidden leg-protection from kevlar f.e., but also thick wrapped newspaper taped around the arm or leg. Anything to avoid any recognizing of bite-material.
Then you bring the dog in the same situation as trained on the suit. A total passive civil-decoy and let the dog bite, just on command. You have to put the dog by holding his collar on the right spot you want him to bite (this will be the protected area of the decoy.) This way the decoy doesn't have to "present" a part to bite in because this would make your dog depending to that " move" and he may not bite while not presented a bodypart.

If your dog is doing that " allround". You can create situations where you can work on your ability to direct your dog in every situation.

Train with a decoy in suit, who makes a lot of noise en make him stand in the same room as a passive civil-decoy. Now make the dog bite on the civil-decoy while the decoy in the suit is making noice and a lot of movement.
If thats OK, you know that YOU are the one to direct your dog in the street and he will bite on your command in every situation.

regards,
Dick


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## Amy Swaby

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> ATM's don't usually dispense more than $500-$600 and not many people get that much out of an ATM anyway. Personally.... if someone walks up to me with a gun at an ATM, I'll give him the <$500. My life and my dogs life is worth much more than that to me.


Sorry but what's to stop them from shooting you anyway once the get the money? Maybe I'm a pessimist but once they have the money why no shoot you if only say in the arm or leg to prevent you from getting anywhere in time so they can get further away.


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## Howard Gaines III

Gerry Grimwood said:


> It must be after 5 pm in Delaware.


HAHAHA Gerry...set it to Delaware time!


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## Howard Gaines III

Sorry Howard K the 21 foot rule was adopted from the bar scene. If you can stagger to the bar for another round before last call, you're served! ;-) I've been told that in corrections, the inmates are directed to "Give me 7." Comes out the same 21 feet. Think about how fast you can react in 21' as a street cop. Some folks couldn't react in 21 light years! :mrgreen: Now about those storm gators, how quick did you react to almost stepping on them?


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## Howard Gaines III

Dan Long said:


> Howard of course I've seen those dogs and they are certainly not lacking in confidence and I'm in no way questioning their abilities. Civil agitation aside, the scenario is, the dogs know they can't get to the decoy because of the leash. They back up to bait the decoy in. As the decoys, you guys always go in to give the dog what he wants. What if you DON'T do that? What if you just stood there, still agitating? What will the dog do then? If you are giving a watch command should that not mean out at the end of the line, trying to get the decoy?


Dan, I see. To some extent the watch command at the end of the leash is good and at other times the watch from beside the owner is also useful. If we didn't go in and the dog wasn't directed to bite, it would just stay there watching like most of our dogs do. This also plays to Howard K's 21' rule. I like the idea of 21' before the dog is sent for the bite with a PPD. If the bad guy comes inside that 21' area...they're too close and need a little redirection. :mrgreen:


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## Howard Gaines III

Bob Scott said:


> I'd rather take my chances shooting the twit instead of loosing my dog in a court room. :-o


Bob I have the solution! Use a long line, never misplace one again!!!! ](*,) :twisted: :mrgreen:


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## Howard Gaines III

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote :You use oil, for quenching, not cold water. Some use heat over an extended period of time for tempering, some use hyper cold temps, like liquid oxygen. Cold water is useless for tempering, like "civil" aggitation. Sorry Gaines, that was too easy.


Jeff, I have always been told and found that the sword was turned in thin layers to create the basic form. At each step the sword is cooled with water to temper the steel, hand held drops to slowly cool, a tank to cool the length. But there is alot of heat coming off that blade in any case. The Japanese sword is also one of the best blade designs out there. In the 1600's, oil would have been very costly and cold water, well lots to be found. A website: www.scnf.org/htreat.html 

Now the modern ways may use oil. Depending upon the oil weight, oil does take heat away very quickly, without it NASCAR wouldn't run. As a shop teacher, we use both to cool the steel in chisels and wood plane blades after grinding to the edge. The final edge is done by hand with oil on a stone. Agree with the civil point...useless.=D>


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## Butch Cappel

Kevin in your original post you asked; _"For those of you that have decoys agitate your dog without equipment on, how long do you find your dog being agitated before the decoy submits to the dog? Also, what do your dogs require before feeling that they have driven off the threat?"_

The first question is decided by the dog, and his energy level. This is where a person with experience can tell if the dog is peaking in intensity, and know when to give the win.

Second question;_" what do your dogs require before feeling that they have driven off the threat?"_ Before feeling they have driven off the threat, the dog needs to feel they have met King Kong and won. 

As to how to mark the dog's victory, Which I think is your true question? Make it an obvious win, so the dog understands what you expected, by having the decoy turn tail and Run like a craven coward. Dogs read body language and they will understand they were the victor by choosing 'Fight'  over 'Flight'

Civil Agitation is uniquely American and from what I have seen not used much in Europe, except where they have seen K9 Pro Sport competitions.
CA is not necessary to proof a dog for street work but neither is Muzzle work. The Muzzle style of training was evolving in Germany while the Civil Agitation was being used in America, and each today have their own advantages.

Neither are the be all, end all, but each bring a unique advantage to training a PP dog. The Koehler Method of Guard Dog Training was one of the first books written on what we today call PP dog training, from an experienced U. S. military dog trainer, and Civil Agitation is the foundation of all his training methods because it was uniquely American.

It is still the foundation training exercise in the Guard dog industry in this country and the most important exercise in judging an effective PP dog in K9 Pro Sports. So mark your dogs victory in the fight with a big escape "clean out of sight" by the decoy and you will see your dogs confidence and intensity soar.


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## Mike Schoonbrood

Amy Swaby said:


> Sorry but what's to stop them from shooting you anyway once the get the money? Maybe I'm a pessimist but once they have the money why no shoot you if only say in the arm or leg to prevent you from getting anywhere in time so they can get further away.


Wow. I am so not gonna play the what-if game. That could go on forever.


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