# ds with inefficient immune system



## Pat Vaughn (Jan 10, 2010)

hi all,

i have a ds that is sick and stays sick all during the warm months. the vet treats him for allergy and general sore throat, fever, etc. he responds to treatment but almost as soon as the antibiotics are withdrawn the symptoms start up all over again. 

both the vet and i want to try something to boost his immune system but what? he eats TOW salmon and has eaten their bison. food doesn't seem to be the issue. environment does. 

any and all ideas will be greatly appreciated. 

tia,
pat vaughn


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## ron ligtenberg (Mar 4, 2015)

Raw meat as food (barf) and a treatment of probiotica can help.
Hope it works.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

gsd with "problems" to say the least 
- confirmed diagnosis of EPI so needed supplements to digest properly
- often got inflamed red ears
- had problems with cysts 
- shedded WAY more than the average healthy gsd
- regularly got inflamed stomach rashes requiring Baytril treatments 
- seen/evaluated by board certified diplomate canine derm specialist who said problems were all related to a (probably genetic) weak immune system. provided a full page readout with a lot of big words used 

was VERY careful with diets; tried a lot of "premium" brands
- only food that stopped the periodic runs was Honest Kitchen, which also produced the hugest poop piles you have ever seen

switched cold turkey to all raw (whole chickens with organs) and meaty beef bones with an occasional raw egg ... no other supplements and nothing else in the dog's diet except some lemon balm and mint leaves growing out back 

within three months 
- no runs
- significantly less shedding and smoother fur
- no more stomach rashes
- cysts dried, fell off and didn't come back
- digestive enzyme requirements (creon) reduced by 60%

no change in energy level or weight and no temperament changes, but it did pee a lot more

of course it's only one case but no immune system building supps or any meds were used. the only major change in its life was diet and about a 30% increase in daily exercise.

you haven't said what allergies were diagnosed and what antibiotics were used so i don't know how relevant my post is, if at all 
- what have you and your vet tried so far to "boost" the immune system ?
- have you considered any environmental or social stresses that might be effecting it, and if so what are they ? (what does it do, does the dog live alone with you or with other dogs too, easy to train or a PITA, temperament issues, etc ??)
- have you considered it might be "activity related" vice "season related" ??

good luck and give us some more info. doubt you will find a magic bullet that will solve the problem


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

gsd with "problems" to say the least 

What are you saying exactly?


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

If its only in the warm months and the symptoms totally disappear in the colder ones then consider looking at things that grow in the warmer conditions such as molds, fungi, some bacterias, or such. Stagnant waters, animals that would be bringing the crud in such as mice. Insecticides, herbicides, fertilizers, etc could all be playing a part too. If you feed the same food summer and winter and the dog gets better in winter then I don't think its so much the food but something in the environment.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re: "If its only in the warm months and the symptoms totally disappear in the colder ones then consider looking at things that grow in the warmer conditions such as molds, fungi, some bacterias, or such. Stagnant waters, animals that would be bringing the crud in such as mice. Insecticides, herbicides, fertilizers, etc could all be playing a part too. If you feed the same food summer and winter and the dog gets better in winter then I don't think its so much the food but something in the environment."
.... agree with all this

plus the dog might be munching/feeding on something that only grows in warm temps
- how much time does the dog have out of sight ? if one is trying to isolate a cause it might pay to monitor the dog more closely 

this is never easy to nail down and the original post was NOT very descriptive
- when people take their time to respond in detail, posters should courteous and reciprocate 

what distresses me is to hear this is with a dutch shepherd and i would want to know the breeder and the bloodlines and hope the poster would not be reluctant to pass that info along
---then again, most of the bloodline info i got when i inquired about floppy eared mals was sent by PM //lol//


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## mel boschwitz (Apr 23, 2010)

What does his bloodwork say? Can you post the specific results? Have you looked at Dr.Dodds website for allergy testing? It may be that warm weather exacerbates the issue (common), but it's actually a year round issue


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## Pat Vaughn (Jan 10, 2010)

thank you all for your replies and suggestions. 

rick. lev is out Copper Mountain's Ry X Caelan du Chenil des Titans. none of the other pups have any problems. only mine. nor do the parents or any of the siblings of the parents. if you want additional info on the bloodline pm me. 

as far as mold and other possible things he could be picking up in the yard, neither is an issue. i live in the sw and mold is rarely a problem. he spends little time in the yard and because i, too, thought he might be picking something up out there i monitored his outdoor activity for several weeks and saw nothing. he's usually in the house with me or with me when i go anywhere. exercise is often and rigorous, when he's feeling well. other times we do a little ob, just so he's not being totally inactive. i don't think the problem stems from anything other than allergy to grasses, weeds, juniper trees, and possibly cottonwoods--all of which are abundant where i live. 

given the suggestions here and from others, i'm putting him on a raw diet and supplementing with probiotics, and a mushroom formula designed to boost the immune system and raise the energy level. also, adding zinc & enchanea (sp?) to his diet. i know i should be doing this on a one-at-a time basis so to control the variables and have a better idea of what works or doesn't. but i so do want him well that i'm just throwing it all at him and hoping some or all will do the trick. he's also going to be on antibiotics until this latest bout is cleared up and possibly throughout the allergy season, depending on what his vet and i agree on. 

again, i thank all of you for your help and i'll post progress/results as we go. 

pat


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

My older GSD has EPI. Ddiagnosed at about 8-9 yrs old. 11 this past Jan.

One thing I learned quickly was to believe a common saying in the EPI world.

"If you've seen one dog with EPI, you've seen one dog with EPI".

It took me, with Connie's help, almost a yr before I figured out a diet that would put weight on him and keep him healthy.

Every dog is different. 

Thunder gets two cups of food with 1 tsp per cup of Panakare Plus powder, three times a day with One half cup hot water per meal. That sits for 20 mins before feeding it.

Dry coat , heavy shedding, REALLY smelly, runny stools, stool eating, dirt eating. Weight went from 80 lb to 64 lb before it was finally diagnosed, again with help from Connie.

Other then old and wobbly, like me8-[ He's healthy today but I have to be very strict about no treats, no snacks, etc. Without the powder it just goes through him and no nutrients are absorbed. 

Almost 80% of EPI dogs are GSDs. Long haired Collies are #2 but it can strike ANY breed or mix.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

TX a lot for adding some background and helping to fill in some blanks !
magic mushrooms ? //lol//

great to have so much concern but watch the herbs less you or the vet knows the effect each will have on a canine

a few years back i wrote a few letters to one of the premium brand dog food companies who promoted their blend of herbs used in their mix. i think it was Origen. i asked how they had arrived at their mix of herbs and if they had been tested on canines to determine the amount to use in their formula, etc. 
- i didn't send emails; i wrote hard copy snail mails. i never got one response

medications seem to always have a faster effect than a natural food or supplement. i'm sure you realize this; just wanted to point it out again

is you vet on board with your approach ?


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## Meg O'Donovan (Aug 20, 2012)

Bob, is EPI usually such a late onset? Is EPI age related? or triggered by something?



Bob Scott said:


> My older GSD has EPI. Ddiagnosed at about 8-9 yrs old. 11 this past Jan.
> 
> One thing I learned quickly was to believe a common saying in the EPI world.
> 
> ...


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

not trying to answer for Bob but i have studied it in depth since i had an EPI dog

EPI is generally considered to be genetic. it is essentially the same as the human condition.
onset and degree of the problem can vary widely from dog to dog

some go longer before getting diagnosed. some get misdiagnosed, but once tested properly it is either there or not. symptoms are readily available on the net. most believe the dog is born with it, but that has not been confirmed either that i know of

bottom line : the dog must get enzyme supplements to be able to properly digest their food
pig enzymes are the most common used
another enzyme, called creon, is available but very expensive, but has some advantages. it does not have to be added to "pre-marinade" the food so it makes feeding less of a hassle and reduces prep time. it also is made for humans and will not irritate as much as the pig enzymes may if they are used improperly. it also comes in a variety of doses which makes it easier to adjust for the individual dog.

people who own EPI dogs generally become experts at stool/poop analysis //lol//

EPI can be managed and the dog can still work. i know of two PSD's who are EPI dogs. both gsds.

there are some people who believe raw is good for EPI dogs since there is more enzymes in raw compared to commercially prepared kibbles. but i doubt there have been definitive studies to confirm this yet

i'm sure Bob and Connie can supply more info


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

also, i forgot to say there is (or was) an EPI forum for people with EPI dogs
- mostly anecdotal and unless they changed their policy you either have to have an EPI dog to join or lie and say you have one 
- i followed it for awhile and it's one reason why i agree with BOB saying there are as many ways to deal with it as there are dogs that have it


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

so my answers to Meg based on what i have learned from my EPI experience would be no, no and no 

if i had one of the dogs where it is common, if it ever started to lose weight and had re-ocurring runs i would test it and be done with it. everyone should know if there dog is properly digesting its food rather than accept a vet diagnosis that the dog might just be a picky eater or have a food allergy.

that is why i connected it with this thread ;-)


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## Meg O'Donovan (Aug 20, 2012)

Thanks for the info.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Rick, I'm not familiar with Creon but the Panakare is about 200 bucks a month for my 80 lb GSD.

That's buying it through Lambert Vet Supply. At the Vets Office it jumps about 50 a month.

With Connie's help I originally started with raw. After about a year of that the cost were just to much considering I'm retired. The preperation also took more then a full day of doing nothing but chopping up chicken and freezing it it 2lb packages. 

I've switched to BLUE Life Protection Formula. 

It tool a lot of trial and error but it finally settled down to how I feed now.

If there was any plus side to feeding three times a day it was with my other GSD. He always got a bit runny if he ate to much at one meal so the three times a day has also been great for him.

I was feeding twice a day before this all happened and started the EPI treatment feeding four times a day and worked down to three.

Something as simple as trying to get down to feeding twice a day creates almost the original symptoms even with the enzymes.


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## Pat Vaughn (Jan 10, 2010)

after another vet visit, here's the latest plan. lev will continue on antibiotics until this bout is over. possbily he will simply be on rotating antibiotics until the allergy season is over. he's taking cephelexin but the vet has ordered cyclosporine. he would like to put lev on apoquel but apoquel is very difficult to obtain. he's on the list for it behind who knows how many other vets. it seems the manufacturers made what they thought was sufficient for two years and it sold out in a month. must be a host of allergic dogs out there. anyway, he's trying to obtain it. 

he nixed the raw diet because of the high antibiotic content of the chicken i'd be feeding and also because we know lev isn't allergic to TOW since he has no problems with allergies during the winter months so his problem isn't food driven. the vet doesn't want to introduce another possible allergen. makes sense and i agree. he's not opposed to feeding raw but wants to wait and also wants me to locate an organic source for chicken and beef, or at least, a local producer who isn't loading his/her livestock with antibiotics. the herbalist agrees.

as for the medicinal mushrooms and other botanicals. no harm but probably little, if any, gain while he's on antibiotics since antibiotics will kill the medicinal herbs along with the bad guys. still its ok, and gives me a sense of doing something, however, ineffective it might actually be. 

the herbalist suggested that we get him on track and then begin giving him minute amounts of the local flora--much like human immunology treatments, but orally rather than the shots. she is willing to prepare the concoction. this program, of course, can't begin until we decide if lev will be on antibiotics throughout the summer/fall. will talk with the vet about this but it seems like something to try. 

that's where we are. i'll post as we progress. 

again, thanks for your suggestions and concern.
pat


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

good luck with your plan

it seems to me the prescription antibiotics you mentioned, which you and the vet feel comfortable administering, would have a MUCH more significant (negative) impact on the dog than any amount of residual antibiotics found in non-organic fresh chicken, so i don't quite see the logic for using that reason to NOT feed raw

...and i'm not saying that just because i'm a raw feeder 

maybe Connie has come across some studies that indicate raw chicken would add too much antibiotics in a canine diet. i never came across that reason in my limited study

was this discussed :
- would continued intake of prescription antibiotics might also have the effect of further weakening the immune system ?


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## Pat Vaughn (Jan 10, 2010)

rick, the prescription antibiotics are to be given just until we get him well. it may or may not require treatment throughout the allergy season. with luck it won't. then on to the raw diet with herbal supplements. w/o residual antibiotics in his system from chicken and such. the residual probably really doesn't all up to much but who knows and why go there if there's another route. the herbalist is really, really, opposed to having any antibiotic in his system during herbal treatment. she knows her stuff so why would i argue with an expert?

the good news is, after yesterday's visit he's MUCH better. so now we just have to get him well and work on keeping him there.

pat


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Crossing my fingers for you Pat! :wink:


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Ok, I understand

it will be interesting for me to hear how the herbal treatment goes. 
that will be a new area for me. 

i sorta got turned off to herbs when i couldn't get an answer from that manufacturer about how they determined the levels they used and how they had been tested on canines, etc. 
- i had gotten the impression the company was applying herbs that were popular with people and implying they would have the same effect on a dog's metabolism

i'm open to new stuff

please keep us posted on what you use and how much, etc


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

just like prescription meds, herbs too can have powerful effects in extremely small doses 

example : astragulas
- it has been promoted by some holistic vets to boost immune systems for canines 

if you look it up you will see uses like this :

"Astragalus is used for the common cold, upper respiratory infections, allergies, fibromyalgia, anemia, HIV/AIDS, and to strengthen and regulate the immune system. It is also used for chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS), kidney disease, diabetes, and high blood pressure”.
- looks to be useful for a wide variety of problems !
- but there are always the warnings about the dosage levels
…..such as this : "There are several different species of astragalus. Some species contain a toxin called swainsonine and have been linked to livestock poisonings"

the problem i see with how effective herbs can be for canines is the lack of research and testing that has been done with canines. their metabolisms and digestive systems are not the same

not all supplements that are generally considered good for people work the same way with dogs. Vitamin C is a good example of that

i’m not saying herbal treatments for canines are not good. just saying in many cases it is uncharted territory

in my reality i am lucky i have a very healthy house dog. i also have a back yard with a lot of different stuff growing and he will munch on stuff. it is intersting to observe. he seems to like lemon balm. is that because there is something lacking in his diet, and he needs it, and is intelligent enuff to choose that particular plant ? maybe, but i doubt it. it isn’t found in his natural habitat. am i wrong for allowing him to consider my yard as a salad bar ? who knows ?
- he will also munch on mint type plants when we are in the mountains
- and i have other dogs here too and let them do the same

the topic interests me a lot


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