# How do you train your PPD?



## Johan Dekinder (Sep 17, 2007)

Hi,

I was wondering : how does your pers. protection dog get trained? 
What kind of exercices you work on? (bitework only please)
How many times/week?

Do you work with a decoy specialised in protection work or other?

Just curious, and hoping to find some good/new ideas ;-) 

Thanks, Jo


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Jeeeeeeeezus, you want me to type all that???

****.......let me think about it.


----------



## steve gossmeyer (Jan 9, 2007)

jeff your actually gonna be nice and do that :!:


----------



## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Can we take turns?

Jo, this is way to big a question but it's not one that can't be answered. It's almost impossible to do all this on a forum.

First you need a dog with the genetics to do so. You will have to find a good decoy that has the experince at training a PPD.

Then you can go from there. Amount of times training per week may differ from trainer to trainer. The important thing is don't go to fast with your dog. It's much easier for the dog to go slow and keep him on track than to go too fast and loose him along the way and then have to back up on your training. You'll have to do that enough as it is.

This is short and sweet but you have asked a tall order to be filled. We, all on this board will love to do whatever we can for you just don't go from zero to ninety in one question. All this takes a lot of time.
Thanks for asking,
Jerry


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

OK. From the start I do not train the same as I would sport, as I am looking for an appearence, more than performance....if that makes sense.:smile: 

I work the pup till 9 months with basic OB.

When I start working the dog, we start with exersizes that some scary guy pops out on a walk at a distance, and the dog alerts and scares him off. From this point on, when we go for a walk, the scary guy gets driven off. We close the distance according to what the dog is doing well with.

Eventually, we work to the point where the scary guy is behind a fence, and the dog is rather close. We are looking for the dog to "look" really scary, and we are building frustration.

After the pup is about a year, and has chased off all kinds of bad guys, we work the fence exersize close to a gate, and the dog is allowed to grab an item of clothing.

We work this so that the dog does not stay with the prize, but wants more of the scary guy.

At this point, we will start working the dog in the muzzle, after getting the dog used to wearing it. We go back to the walks with the scary guy, and drag the dog in to attack the scary guy.

Basically we are frustrating the crap out of the dog.

At this point, we will put the dog on the suit. We do not target the dog, per se, but he is allowed to bite whatever is closest, on lead.

At this point, we work a lot of passive scenarios so that pupster is not going after some poor guy just walking by.

All bites are on lead, as most states will nail you for releasing the dog to go after the scary guy.

THis is all just basic foundation work. I do not go to the same place more than once if at all possible. Everything that I do from here, will depend on the dog, and what the client is asking for. At all times, we try and get that "look" from the dog with the snarling and snapping.

From here, we usually work on the dog attacking when told to. This is usually where we start separating dogs into catagories according to abilities.


I have not done PP work in a really long time. There is a lot of "play" in how we get things across to different dogs, but what we are trying to achieve is a dog that will respond to aggression, and is always expecting something to happen.

Pretty sure I forgot some things, but PP was always about the look, and the alertness of the dog. Never did any sends or multiple attackers where you send the dog, and then call him off or any BS like that. I always thought that if you dropped the leash you were in more trouble, as well as what the **** are you doing walking around in crazy neighborhoods like this.

I had a couple of clients screw up, doing the "macho" thing and walking about talking shit in bad neighborhoods. The dogs did what they were taught, and both dogs were shot. Clients got beat up.

And that was the end of me dealing with PP dog nutsos.


----------



## Justin Eimer (Oct 17, 2006)

No Wino's Jeff:?: :?: :?:


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I have had more people tell me that over the years, and I really thought it was complete crap till I met "THE guy" LOL

I was managing this shithole bar, and I saw this guys arm with all kinds of scars on it. I asked him what was up, and he told me that when he was homeless, living under an overpass, that guys would come up and offer him a decent meal if he would let their dog bite them.

When reading this, please have a big grain of salt next to you.......it will help the taste of the shit I just fed you go down.:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## Johan Dekinder (Sep 17, 2007)

Some great answers, many thanks! Always nice to pick up new ideas.
Here in Belgium it's very hard to find a decent trainer/decoy for that kind of work. In fact, I'm looking for a good decoy/trainer for ages..
Sure, plenty of guys who are willing to help, but most of them have a Schutz background.. Nothing against, but 2 different worlds..

Regards, Jo


----------



## Justin Eimer (Oct 17, 2006)

Johan~ I would love to respond to this but I gotta get to work. 


Jeff~ Thank god I read that before I brushed my teeth. :-&


----------



## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

What's also important is what you NOT do. For example, I would not be heavy-handed with my dog with corrections, etc. I would not (ever) let other people outside of my immediate family direct or correct my dog. You should, in my opinion, socialize your dog with other BALANCED dogs, kids and some people (not every human you see). The dog should be taken onto all kinds of surfaces, both on the ground and raised, including things that shake and wobble. The dog should learn to be comfortable in all of these situations and in all places, regardless of what is going on around him. However, YOu MUST INSURE that these experiences for the dog are POSITIVE, otherwise these experiences will be counterproductive and you will set your dog back. In other words, if you take your dog to meet a child make sure the child doesn't poke him in his ears, etc. so that your dog doesn't begin to "dislike" children. Got it? You must control all situations and make sure your dog comes through it very, very well. 

You should also introduce him to loud noises, but start at a good distance and slowly desensitize him. The dog may not even have an issue with noises but why create one? That's why you take it slow and far. And if he does have somewhat of an issue you will be going in the right direction to, hopefully, cure him of it. 

Even if you don't do ANY sort of agitation or bite training for the first year or so your dog will benefit significantly from the confidence building exercises like the ones I just stated. 

Often times you're better off not to do any training that to muck it up with the wrong people. If you want your dog to be a pure PPD then I suggest you find a PPD trainer that IS a PPD trainer and not just a Schutzhund guy who also advertises as a PPD trainer to make the extra income. It's ok if he does Schutzhund but make sure you understand his PPD training philosophy before proceeding. And remember, every dog trainer in the world thinks their way is THE way so you might consider talking to at least several, if that's possible. 

There's no way we can cover everything here but hopefully you get some helpful proverbial "food for thought". Good luck!


----------



## Johan Dekinder (Sep 17, 2007)

@ Patrick,

wow, great answer, many thanks.
In fact, the way you describe things is practically the way I raised my now 13months old malinois and she is the best ppd I ever had (maybe it's because it's my first mal, but that's stuff for another discussion ;-) ) 
The only thing I did wrong is work with a schutzhund guy .. 
Your thoughts on trainers is oh so true. Main problem out here in Belgium is : try and find a decent ppd-trainer ...(I'm currently searching again, even searching just passed the Dutch' border..).
Before we had some great clubs/trainers out here (15y ago), but due to several biting incidents they all stopped or went into obedience and stuff ..

I'm playing with the idea of getting a puppy of my own's dog sis' (2 gsd, worth a mal ..) but if I do, I first need and want to find someone who has the knowledge to train her for my purposes (I have quite some knowledge myself to work with a Schutz-trainer but those guys won't listen ......)
I really want to prove or see if I can bring a german to the levels of my mal ..
Last try ;-) 

Thanks & regards,
Jo


----------



## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

I really want to prove or see if I can bring a german to the levels of my mal ..

WHAT.........Mals are just now doing what GSD has done for years.

Smiley Face , Smiley Face , Still haven't figured out how do use those things


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

There is a french breeder of GSD's that still thinks Mals are a fad.


----------



## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> There is a french breeder of GSD's that still thinks Mals are a fad.


You mean they are not? Actually, you are starting to see a trend of police departments going back to GSD's

DFrost


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I figured this would happen eventually. Mals are not a first timers dog, and there are enough handlers out there that are new, and not able to handle a Mal. Especially if it is truely a strong dog.

I prefer the GSD over the Mal in many areas. I have some curiousity as to Mals and their character vs GSDs. It is hard in my particular situation right now, as much of what I know about certain breeds came from training and breeding them. I saw many many GSD's from all types and backgrounds, and I have only my experience with MR and some random experiences years ago with Mals.

Character is something that i would have to go back into breeding to actually be sort of qualified to speak on with Mals. Most that I have seen are not in situations where you could really get a good read on it.

With my experience in Mals, if you take away the drive, there is not enough there. Again, I do not have a lot of experience with Mals of random backgrounds. The Mals that i deal with are bred for the sport. The few that I have seen that were not suitable for sport, which is two or three, I never saw anything there that would live in my house. Not enough of a sample to say for sure, but it just seems like too much me, me, me.

Suprised ya didn't I.


----------



## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Yep........But you said it right. (I was just kidding before.) 

What I see in GSD is that they are what they are, good, bad or indifferent. My knowledge of Mals is way down there but this is what I've noticed. They are full of drive, love to bite and somewhat level headed, at times when they want to. As they get older they tend to get sharp. They don't want to be around kids and had really liked to be left alone unless they are working with their trainer/handler. A GSD is what he is.


----------



## Johan Dekinder (Sep 17, 2007)

> Mals are just now doing what GSD has done for years.


Jerry, exactly, HAS done for years...

The German is my favourite, no doubt, but when it comes to ppd-work or reality, there's a long way to go before getting him the back the name he really deserves and what he used to be : the perfect allrounder. Not the best in something, but very good in everything! 
Sure they still exist, but hard to find imo.

Therefore also my search for a younger dog instead of a pup (see other topic). Chances of getting a good puppy for my purposes are far higher when getting a new mal pup (or even dutchie) than another gsd..

I really wish it weren't so, but :-(


----------



## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Mals have grown on me alot since I got a Dutchie. "Take away the drive"... well.. yeah... but the drive is what makes up the complete personality of the dog.

I think its a very individual thing. There is no "better" dog, I think its more about the type of personality that the handler enjoys working with. Alot of people want a family dog that can work when he needs to work but can be around small children during the day. That's fine, but this is an individual requirement that can't be pushed onto someone who likes a cocky dog that never sits still and wants to bite everyone in the ass for fun. What one person may find very annoying, another person finds to be a lively character of a dog.

It takes alot to impress me these days. I am a person that gets used to things a little too quick, things "normalize" for me in a short period of time, which kinda sucks because it means I am always looking for something to keep me interested and keep things entertaining. I am then around these GSD trainers who say "wow this dog is great". But the dog doesn't impress me, the dog looks like 10 other dogs I saw that week, so in my mind I think "if this guy who has trained dogs for 20 years is impressed by THIS dog... then what will it take to impress me!?!?". It is almost always a Mal or a Mal cross (GSD or Dutchie crosses) that knock me off my feet and make me say "wow, I like this dog!". So to me, Mal's and Dutchies have become my preference because they have the traits that I would like to have in MY dog.

Anyone coming from a car background will know what I'm talking about... when you go from a 200hp V6 to a 400hp V8, the car is "WOW". After a while the car no longer feels "WOW", it feels Normal. Its a personality thing. Some people are always looking for the bigger, the better, the faster, the more aggressive, the less social, the stronger etc. Other people are happy staying at their current level or moving up a little but not all the way up. Then there's people who would like the bigger better faster stronger crazier, but because of their life situation, family, kids, work, money, whatever it may be, rationalize their staying at that level by listing the things that make their choice more practical for their lifestyle.

Nothing wrong with that at all, but everyone lives in a different situation. For someone to say a GSD is a better all around dog, that might be true for their situation, but that might not be true for the next person.

The only issue I see is that with a Mal, if the nerves are crap, but the drive is good the dog will still work, meaning that nervey dogs are bred excessively because they still do the job. This makes it harder to find environmentally sound Mal's. But the same can be said for GSD's, its difficult to find an absolutely stable GSD too. At least with the Mal you have a better likelihood of the Mal having enough drive to work thru his nerve problems.


----------



## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Just a thought...maybe the reason an old-timer can say 'wow', while someone who hasn't been training that long will say 'meh', is because the old-timer can 'read' dogs better? I know I've fallen into this trap so many times when someone likes a dog I don't like, I tend to look very hard to see what I've missed. In example, normally before if watching a bark and hold (I know this is the PPD thread but I'm just using an example) I like the really energetic, high in the air types, and then it turns out that the less impressive dogs--the ones that are more grounded and don't have that sharp sounding bark, are actually more serious. And I know lots of times I go back to dogs I didn't like and that I now like, because I've seen a lot more than before. 

I have seen a lot of pretty impressive Mals but to be honest a good GSD--and they're not that common, I agree--will really take my breath away.


----------



## Johan Dekinder (Sep 17, 2007)

> but to be honest a good GSD--and they're not that common, I agree--will really take my breath away.


Lyn, I love you ;-)


----------



## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

There's entire sports dedicated to the types of dogs I have come to like with many accomplished trainers striving to breed that type of dog. It's not about reading the dog, its about having a dog that suits your personality. I'm not talking about dogs who put on macho displays of barking and bounce around in the hold & guard. I have never actually seen a dog do a jumping hold & guard that I thought looked impressive, its more of a waste of the dogs energy. I like Selena's dogs for example, her dogs aren't hectic and I don't think I even heard them bark once.

I don't like Sch as a guide for liking or disliking a dog at all. Too many "old timers" have told me "I dont like hard dogs anymore, I like the softer easier to train ones because I score better points". And too many of them have told me they liked a dog that clearly had issues or no seriousness about them, but they will score points and thats important right???? Some of these dogs I have dropped the sleeve unprotected and just stood there because the dog didn't run the blind properly, because I know the dog isn't gonna do anything. So do I like the dog because this trainer has done this for 20 years??? Or do I make my own decision?? I will make my own decision thanks.


----------



## Johan Dekinder (Sep 17, 2007)

Some good points Mike.

They like the softer ones, they score points, they get in the mags, become Belgian/Dutch/US champ whatever .. Result : a lot of breeders select THAT (softer) dog because there's always a lot of demand after "the champ his kids ;-) " , means money, and so on ..
But end result : less and less decent GSD, sport dogs yeah, but not the dogs a GSD was intend to be and was years ago!
Just my 2c.


----------



## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Mike, that sucks, more of the old-timers I've met are still into the hard dogs but I know what you mean as I've met a couple of Schutzhund handlers like that. What I meant was more backwards, as before I thought the energetic dogs were impressive, and my friend commented on a particular dog that I thought was quite lazy, but the more I thought about it and reviewed the dog's performance the more I saw how he was powerful on the bite, pushing into and so on.


----------



## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Mike you forgot about the person that likes the all around dog that is good with kids, not off his rocker and get you sued, and eager to do just what you want with no " up yours buddy, I'm doing it this way AND will go from 0 to 300 in just over 4 seconds. I know , I know you might be thinking I'm talking about a Boston Terrier or a Jack Russell Terrier, Naw a GSD.

I agree with you Mike about what fits the person. My partner, Matt Hammond, has a Mal and a very nice one at that. She is so good I would love to have one BUT I just can't do it. I have to stick by my loyal GSD. Matt would give me hell if I did. GSD has my heart and that is what it is. Ilike to pick at Matt as much as he likes to pick at me on our breeds.

So for all you Mal people out there, If it ain't a GSD just let him stay on the porch. Smiley Face Smiley Face----------Someone tell me how to use the icons.


----------



## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Jerry, : ) and : D and so on but remove the spaces......


----------



## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

So Mike, have you not ever seen a GSD who is full of drive like a Mal? Ive seen both GSDs and Mals that are full of drive and work GREAT and I have seen both of them that just SUCK and you couldn't give them away. This is no different then the Ford vs Chevy debate. Both are great vehicles but there is often the occasional lemon. I have also seen Mals with nerve issues with plenty of drive that could NOT work through their nerve problems as with the GSD. But regardless of the breed, if the dog will work and work well then thats what I like to see.


----------



## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

What we are seeing a lot is actually handlers getting their second or third dog going back to the Mal. They wanted one, they tried it and prefer the GSD. Perhaps out of traditionalism who know, but I see it a lot. They are looking for those GSD's though with a touch that are a bit more drivey. A lot of Czech dogs popping up. 

DFrost


----------



## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Very true Davd, very true.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I've lived with terriers for the last 30 yrs. Love em to pieces but with now having two GSDs that can turn on and off like a light switch, I don't know if I could ever live with another Mini-Mal (JRT).
Well...........I probably could. Just don't think my GSDs want to have the crazy little bassads around. 
Had one Mal. If she wasn't in drive she was worried about life in general. Can't handle that!


----------



## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> I like Selena's dogs for example, her dogs aren't hectic and I don't think I even heard them bark once.


spike is pretty vocal. robbie not so much and wibo? i've said it before and i'll say it again. just downright scary. after dick outted him from devouring my leg, the dog just stood there. he wasn't looking at me. he was looking through me. it can't really be described in words, but i'll do my best. there was no show of bravado or machismo. just a complete and total confidence in himself and his abilities. he was ready should the conflict start back up and the way he looked, as dick said, he wanted to kill me. there was ZERO play or sport or whatever. just a very "start it up again punk and make my day".very eery feeling. again, i'm not doing it justice with words. you just have to see it. i have only ever seen one dog close to that.

which is not to say that a dog that barks at you wouldn't tear you up and probably would scare off people with just a bark. the one that doesn't bark is the one to look out for..


----------



## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Jay, I've seen GSD's that are very malinois like, but they just move differently, its a structural thing. GSD's are always a little bit more "oaf" like to me :lol: I have 3 of em, I'm not saying its bad. I do prefer the skinnier sleeker lighter GSD's though, I'm not much for the 100lb'ers. Even in my 2 pups, they are littermates. One is skinny and very agile, the other is a big oaf. I'd say he was fat, but I can still see his ribs, he's just thick and wide.

Ofcourse there's also less flattering oafy and slower Mal's out there too


----------



## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

Im a big guy so I need a big dog, or else we'd just look funny. My boy is around 95lbs and he is fit. He actually has that Mal kind of drive which I like, and he doesn't come in on a bite like a normal GSD, which is another thing that I like.  He also has that stare thing that Tim was talking about. He doesn't do a hold and bark, he just guards and stares, begging for you to move while looking dead into your eyes.


----------



## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

"Not like a normal GSD"... then get a dang Mal already


----------



## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

Theres no need to now. :razz: Just partial to the GSDs I guess. Not to say that there won't be a Mal in the near future though. :wink:


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

There are Mal breeders that I have talked to that are describing GSD like traits when they talk about their dogs. Maybe there is hope.:smile: 

I think that character is something that could be improved in the Mal for sure.

I do not see Mal like drive in GSD's........or maybe someone just has really low drive mals. Remember the Leerburg video when he was showing drive levels and the Mal he used was a 7-8 because there is no ten???? If you have seen this video, then just about every Mal I have worked with is a minimum of ten, I do not know where Buko is, little jack ass is about 14 when he is asleep.

Tim, sounds like you are in love with the dog. Have Dick wrap him up and send him home with you.


----------



## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

> There are Mal breeders that I have talked to that are describing GSD like traits when they talk about their dogs


Like... "he's super crazy like a Mal, but he can be lazy and a couch potato like a GSD in the home"


----------



## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Oh man, the no-barking thing, Schutzhund folks don't like that!


----------



## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

Well I will admit that he is not like one of those over the top Mals, which I think I am glad. But he IS a long way from a flatliner. I think some of the traits the Mal breeders must be looking for is one thats not bouncing off the walls and good manners at home like a GSD. :wink: :razz:


----------



## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

House manners are so overrated.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: House manners are so overrated. :razz:

When I see a dog with good house manners as a pup, it is so hard not to think "DUD". My X Emily has a dog that she could leave the leash on in the crate as a puppy and he would not chew it to bits. He turned out real nice, but man, I had a hard time holding on to hope that he would get stronger. He was showing that he was gonna go that way, but I have worked with a lot that never made it past that point. One of the reasons GSD's bug me is the late maturity rate. I ****in hate that.


----------



## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Tim, sounds like you are in love with the dog. Have Dick wrap him up and send him home with you.


no. gregg and i are both in agreement. wibo is too much dog for us. i see how hard dick has had to work and listening to dick talk, i don't really want a dog like that. maybe 33% of wibo. that would be nice. spike is a nice balance and if i felt REALLY confident and if i had dick there to tutor me, MAYBE a robbie. i want to be able to play with my dog and not worry that he's thinking of overthrowing my power. i like a dog that if maybe i'm not 100% into training that day, i can still go through the motions and the dog won't take it as weakness that creates a problem that will take a couple weeks to correct. i know it all probably seems like a bunch of BS to you. i was skeptical before i saw him. the dog is THAT f'n dominant and THAT f'n tough. and then some...


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Sounds like a lot of joy. I can always stay away from the super dominent........Not sure I ever want a super dominant with me dog.


----------



## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

Why Jeff, are you getting too slow in your old age? LOL :razz: :razz:


----------



## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

jay, bless your heart, be kind to the old ppl on here!! oh--we need some pics of your hound!!


----------



## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

I'll post a couple for him that I have.
Ichilles:


----------



## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Great pics!!! Achilles is quite the dog.


----------



## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

Thanks. I do need to get some new pics of Hank tracking and put on here. Im going later today, I'll see if I can't get some. I tell ya, that hound sure is turning out to be a GREAT tracker.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I am getting to old and slow. I think it depends on the lowercase modifier that goes along with DOMINENT. That is what makes it such a pain in the ass.

And where are the hound dog pics????? Holdin out again are we??


----------



## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

Yeah, and I didn't get to go and train today to get any. I'll get some soon and post them.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

OK, and in response to the old thing, I got to make fun of the decoying. You got some hilarious stuff there.

The "scarecrow" pose, is this some initiation for new decoys??? AND coming from you "real" people I can not take it. I nearly peed my pants.

OK, then there is the pic where the kid has his hand on his hip and is just taking it from the dog. Too hard to tell with that pic, but do you guys teach your decoys any techniques so that they are not just getting bit up??? OUCH. 

The leg bite...........WTF??? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: I am thinking he was just launching a kick at the dog.=; Really.=; =; =; =; 

OK, then the last is working your dog with suit pants on.............I have seen that get pretty interesting......and funny. 

SO there, the OLD MAN strikes back ! ! ! ! ! !


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

As a seperate post, I thought I would mention in all seriousness that the targeting a dog for the middle of the back like that can have disasterous consequenses if the decoy falls back on the dog. Got to throw out those old ass tapes.:smile:


----------



## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Jeff,the scarecrow thing is FUNNY along with the hand on the hips. The leg thing was a little different. That was Ichilles trying to take his leg off by stretching it out as far as he could. Look at his other foot in that photo. He is out and up on his toes.

Did you notice the kid up in the pine tree?


----------



## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

Ok first, those are some old pics, Ichilles was only around 16mths old, and we have already had the discussion about the bite on the back Jeff, MAN, are losing your memory too! :razz: To make you feel better he has not ever bitten the back since then or even before that really. Matt nor I trained this decoy (training attained somewhere else) but he does train with us some, more often here lately and he has gotten better. Don't know what was going on with the scarecrow pose thing there, your guess is as good as mine. You did nail it though about kicking at the dog, that was actually Ichilles' first leg bite. I asked the decoy to see if he would bite the leg so he just threw it out there. And WHAT, you wouldn't handle your own dog in suit pants, I've done it several times, sure beats having to change back and forth. Come on man, if you're scared then say you're scared. LOL :grin:


----------



## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

The hand on the hips....Hey you never know if your mugger will be feminine or not, we train for anything. LOL :lol: 

The scarecrow.... see the pic was actually taken a second too late, you remember he didn't have a brain; the lion, tin man and Dorthy had already ran off. :grin: Plus it keeps the birds away, don't want any poop on my suit.


----------



## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

That's my boy..........


----------



## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

i've never seen a decoy fall backwards from a back bite. the dog's momentum should push the decoy. after the initial hit if the decoy can't maintain their balance while the dog is on the bite, then it's a decoy i wouldn't want working my dog...


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

It happens, as some dogs do not have astounding entries and the decoy goes over backwards. Happens in trials as well.

Guys, it was just a joke. hopefully you have moved on to a decoy that might have a clue, or at least went and studied tapes of real decoys....


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: And WHAT, you wouldn't handle your own dog in suit pants, I've done it several times, sure beats having to change back and forth. Come on man, if you're scared then say you're scared. LOL :grin:

Uhhhhh, I don't think it is scared, my dog actually has some drive, so whatever is closest is fine with him. LOL      Cannot believe you fell for that one. Everyone knows that the junkers won't bite the owner.


----------



## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

Dude, I know you're joking, calm down. Anyway, my dog actually has brains therefore he KNOWS better than to bite me cause that'll be his ASS and he knows it. :razz: Its not the suit he's after anyway its the person, so me wearing bite pants doesn't mean a thing to him anyway. Are you saying that your dog is equipment oriented? And if he is so trigger happy then maybe you should try wearing suit pants while you handle him. LOL :wink: :grin:


----------

