# A few questions about temperament!



## Alegria Cebreco (Jul 25, 2007)

For those of you who have "sharp" dogs or nervy dog how do you handle them out in public? Is there any concern for liabilities? Even though being aware of your surroundings at all times and being on top of your game, accidents can happen at any time. Also is it normal for a police dog not to allow people within 10 feet of it? (a comment that was made to me) Wouldnt that be a huge liability for the city/state? Is that a sought out trait for police departments?


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

editing hold on


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

In the US most police dogs are pretty social or neutral as far as I'm aware. This isn't the same in all countries, and as always, it depends on the dog. A good dog is a good dog.

Lyka is very sharp, and I never have a problem with her out in public. Its all in the obedience. I have a bigger problem with Tiko and Yasko because they wanna jump up at everyone that walks by because they love people :roll:


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Oops...was trying to make it readable and got timed out. LOL good thing I saved it.

Well, I guess this should go without saying, I know my dog in and out, which helps prepare me out in public with him. If he is in such a situation that I'm not 100% sure of, I have him muzzled. 

Since I know how he ticks--he acts out only if he thinks there's a confrontation, never from a defensive mode (hence, because he didn't act out because he felt scared, it was more controllable), I worked hard on my end to make sure we have a communication going on. I try to predict how he'll react and take measures...give him a command to occupy him, stick a ball down his throat, etcetera. It does work and so far now he's a much calmer creature. 

It is hard, hard work...frankly there were times I wished I didn't have such a trigger happy dog, but then I suppose he is worth all the trouble I went through for. He IS in fact the best dog I've ever had. Aggression towards pack members is zero. He lay on his back and let his "baby brother" climb all over him, played tug with him and actually LET HIM win. So this further reinforced my belief that just because a dog didn't come out perfect from the box, and needed a little work, doesn't mean he is useless.

The type of dog that he is, for sure, I would never worry about if I did need him. One thing maybe with a dog that needed more 'threat' to react, you could be dead already before he realizes something's going on. So I can see why people would want a dog like this. Not everyone is up for the hard (almost insane) work involved with a dog like this, but doesn't necessarily mean they're unstable dogs and I have heard some people remark that in the past they used to say, if you wanted to touch a German Shepherd, you bought your own. Certainly it's unfair to compare a working dog up against the classic Golden Retriever temperament. They do take work, some more than others, especially since their ancestors started out guarding their masters or flock or so on against things. Why should the breed be reprimanded for what it was bred to do, and still valued for? Of course it doesn't help that there's so many people who don't put control on their dogs and then boast about their killing machines. I saw an episode of Guinea Pig in Discovery Channel where the guy with the German Shepherd was like, "He's not going for your arm...he's going for your throat..." That kind of attitude really puts our dogs in a bad light.


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## Alegria Cebreco (Jul 25, 2007)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> In the US most police dogs are pretty social or neutral as far as I'm aware. This isn't the same in all countries, and as always, it depends on the dog. *A good dog is a good dog.*
> 
> Lyka is very sharp, and I never have a problem with her out in public. Its all in the obedience. I have a bigger problem with Tiko and Yasko because they wanna jump up at everyone that walks by because they love people :roll:


But what does that mean? What classifies a dog as "good"? Extreme drives, agression hardness ect? Are those things enough to even out a not so clear head?

It does have alot to do with obedience but I feel a _small_ portion has to do with the dogs self control.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

A good dog depends on the person you ask! In the first place, what 'job' are we looking at here...pet, protection dog, police dog, sport dog? And are we evaluating a breeding dog or just one for work? Cause that changes things.

Yes, you should ideally be weighing in the whole dog (including his upbringing or lack thereof, etcetera) to determine if he's good for you or not. There are hundreds of variables on why a dog acts the way it does and each must be viewed on a case by case basis. There is no perfect dog. You have to compensate. They're living things, not machines.

In the end, you work with the dog you feel comfortable with or you work with the dog you love, **** everything else.


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## Alegria Cebreco (Jul 25, 2007)

Lyn, but what if the dog took a defensive stance? And saw EVERYTHING as a threat, even a 4 year old child? (who wasnt even looking at him or anywhere near him).

I do understand having a dog that reacted to a threat in an appropriate manner but I always thought having a dog that knew the difference was key. Obviously a 4 year old isnt a threat. Even horseplay could be percieved as a threat and the dog reacting would be justifyable. But reacting to someone just walking by or standing at a distance. Is it normal for a dog to react? I just think something is up when a dog acts like this (all the while looking very uncomfortable and stressed).

What is considered a stable dog? (sorry for all the questions bare with me please)


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

> Are those things enough to even out a not so clear head?


So what you're saying is that a sharp aggressive dog can't be clearheaded? That's just not true. I really hate the term clearheaded because it usually suggests a dog that'll act like the family lab around everyone until he's "turned on," rather than truly meaning "clearheaded." I know plenty of clearheaded dogs that aren't social.

Gotta go let dogs out, will get back to this later.

Edit: Just caught this:



> but I always thought having a dog that knew the difference was key.


How does a dog "know" the difference? Do all bad guys stare at and threaten a dog so the dog "knows" he's a bad guy? Most dogs I've worked will try and lick my face if I kneel down on the ground and start playing with bits of grass and offer it to them with a happy voice.


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## Alegria Cebreco (Jul 25, 2007)

Lyn Chen said:


> A good dog depends on the person you ask! In the first place, what 'job' are we looking at here...pet, protection dog, police dog, sport dog? And are we evaluating a breeding dog or just one for work? Cause that changes things.
> 
> Yes, you should ideally be weighing in the whole dog (including his upbringing or lack thereof, etcetera) to determine if he's good for you or not. There are hundreds of variables on why a dog acts the way it does and each must be viewed on a case by case basis. There is no perfect dog. You have to compensate. They're living things, not machines.
> 
> In the end, you work with the dog you feel comfortable with or you work with the dog you love, **** everything else.


I'm looking at dogs who have to be in public (whether someone lives in a populated area, police K9 who patrol the streets, family protection with children involved, a sport dog that bring more to the table than just prey drive). Not so much for breeding just working.


I know all dogs are different and none are perfect but I'm just curious as to where you draw the line to deeming a dog unstable for any job.

Thankyou Lyn for your active replies I really appreciate them.


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## Alegria Cebreco (Jul 25, 2007)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> So what you're saying is that a sharp aggressive dog can't be clearheaded? That's just not true. I really hate the term clearheaded because it usually suggests a dog that'll act like the family lab around everyone until he's "turned on," rather than truly meaning "clearheaded." I know plenty of clearheaded dogs that aren't social.
> 
> Gotta go let dogs out, will get back to this later.


No Mike thats not what I'm getting at. Social does not fit into the GSD, Dutchie or Mali standard. All breeds are supposed to be aloof, I know at least that much, lol. 

Maybe I have a different idea of sharp. Maybe I should use the word nervy. Easily startled and reacting agressively to practically nothing. Thinks everything is a threat.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Well, here's the thing. Dogs didn't pop out of their mommies' wombs knowing right from wrong. (That's why they eat cat poop and then lick you right after). And dogs have different comfort levels. We can't really assign 'human' values to them because what we don't perceive as threatening, they might. Dogs after all live in a world where body language is extremely important, and something as a slight stiffening may be *everything* between thinking that person is cool and maybe he isn't. That's why it's important for us people, as handlers or pack leaders or however you like to look at it, to give proper guidance. Make the dog understand it is never his call, it is always your call. If he does something, even without command, it's because you let him.

With regards to children, some people take it for granted that dogs ought to know how to act around them, but I wouldn't count on it. They're like puppies. Some dogs are patient with puppies, some aren't. And is the puppy *theirs*? That makes a difference too. 

That's that. Of course, there ARE unstable dogs. I'd classify it as one who reacts beyond reason, one who attempts to kill or *badly* hurt someone that's in their pack. Even saying that, you really need to know the whole story. I would venture to say that 99% of the time, there's an answer to the problem. Not always a solution, but from my pov, you'd know a crazy dog if you lived with him for quite a while.

Of course, not every dog is suitable for every job. Not every dog can be a family pet, not every dog can be a Schutzhund dog, not every dog can be a police dog. 

No problem I'm trying to fall asleep.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Here's something you might have seen some decoys do with pups. After the pup wins the item, they pretend to 'take' it back by stiffening, creeping low. Pup usually becomes alert and starts barking to protect his item. But the decoy didn't do anything, didn't scream or yell. Pup of course doesn't (shouldn't) take it as a serious threat, but he notices it. Really good decoys can do the same thing with a look. That's how much dogs read movement...heck they read breathing patterns, they notice what you are and you're not looking at.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

To me, aloof = social. A dog that can be approached and petted whether the dog likes it or not is social to me  Then again, an antisocial dog can be controlled enough to where he can be approached, and even pet. He might growl, but its obedience.


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

Lyn Chen said:


> Not everyone is up for the hard (almost insane) work involved with a dog like this, but doesn't necessarily mean they're unstable dogs


The (almost insane) part of the work with a dog being described, in my mind, is the fact that there are new and out of the ordinary situations that come up in life. A "trigger happy" dog will do his part to point out that something might not be right here...it is the job of the handler to stay on top of *each and every* situation the dog may perceive as different or new, at least while the dog is growing up (meaning up to 2 or 3 years old==even then, I'd bet the dogs require 100% strong leadership with little room for error then, too). 

I agree, it is the job of the handler to have control at all times and know their dog. It is the job of the handler also, to know instantaneously, without a shadow of a doubt, how to respond to the dog if and when it does have a trigger display involving aggression. Consistant measures in this area will, IMO, can yield excellent results later. It is teaching the dog what is and is not a true threat. Inconsistant measures in this area can yield disasters.


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## Amber Scott Dyer (Oct 30, 2006)

my dog is quick on the trigger. I wouldn't have a problem with her if people weren't such idiots. because they are, i don't take her to places where it might be an issue. 

for example, walking in the park, she might go on alert and get a little growly occasionally, but she stays in heel. I know better than to take her into big crowds if it isn't absolutely necessary (walking downtown during festivals and stuff) because you can't keep an eye on everyone around you. that said, I've really stopped taking my social dog out there like I used to also. you really never know when someone's uncontrolled child (or dog on a flexi lead, God help me) is going to come running up behind your dog and surprise both of you. it's just liability i don't need.


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## Kayce Cover (Oct 30, 2007)

Alegria Cebreco said:


> For those of you who have "sharp" dogs or nervy dog how do you handle them out in public? Is there any concern for liabilities? Even though being aware of your surroundings at all times and being on top of your game, accidents can happen at any time. Also is it normal for a police dog not to allow people within 10 feet of it? (a comment that was made to me) Wouldnt that be a huge liability for the city/state? Is that a sought out trait for police departments?


Short response: If in doubt, muzzle, while you train, until dog has demonstrated his comitment/ability to maintain safe behavior in public/with others.

Long response: 

Over 95% of all dogs can learn to be safe with people. However, no one can guarantee the behavior of another. Every mishap I have ever seen with an animal has been accompanied by the owner's exclamation, "He's never done THAT before!" I know of two cases in the UK in 2007 where a rottweiler and a cane corso cross both took down their handlers, with no discernible provocation, and no discernible warning. In both cases, the handlers/witnesses initially believed the dog was playing. In both cases, the people are permanently disabled and one woman lost her entire arm - the dog ate it. Neither dog was ever known to do anything to anyone previously. Neither dog was specifically trained or tested for safety.

In order to get a dog that is safe with people, I train it, work it and test it, in conditions that are much more taxing than I ever expect to need the behavior in. I am not done till I have 99.9 % reliability during tests of 100 trials interspersed randomly in other work trials. Then the animal goes onto a random retest system (tests randomly inserted into regular work flow).

Until that point, I will use muzzles if I have any doubt as to my ability to manage the animal safely. Sometimes, with exotics, we use moving boards, body guards, and back up guns and other safety back up measures.

Example, at National Zoo, the safest, fastest way to evacuate animals from the exhibit was to walk them through the public area. This was also necessary if they needed to be shipped anywhere else. Before they were allowed 3 feet from the exhibit gate, they had to be rock solid with people jumping, yelling, clapping, and lunging, 5 feet away. When they had progressed far enough from the gate to allow this, we had the zoo police ride a scooter around the animals, shooting blanks. We hid volunteers in various places enroute and had them jump out with fire extinguishers, hoses, brooms, ripping balloons.... The visitors LOVED helping us do this stuff. :mrgreen:

Once the behavior is proofed, it must be regularly worked. If I leave an exotic animal unworked for three weeks, I usually must retrain from scratch. Dogs are a bit more forgiving, but not much. The retraining goes much faster than the first time, but I can make a fatal mistake if I expect a dog to honor old standards and expectations after a layoff/vacation.

The cost of a screw up is so severe, that I am very conservative on this. However, so far, with any animal I have worked, he is safe for me in a week and safe for others in three, even with a past history of biting. This holds true for all the animals I have worked in direct contact. There are animals I train but not in direct contact, so I don't know if it can be true for these, including bears, like Rocky who just killed his trainer of many years.


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## Alegria Cebreco (Jul 25, 2007)

Lynn, I understand that all dogs are different and none are perfect, just like people I"m nowhere near perfect :twisted: . I'm just wondering what _does_ cross the line for a dogs reaction. In our wolrd of sue happy individuals, how is it possible to never have an accident or slip up? Accidents can happen to the best of people.

Mike, I think aloof can have a variety of meaning from dogs who accept people petting them to those who might give a low growl or rumble when someone gets close but have controlled reactions thru obedience and self control. 

Michele, but how do you teach a dog what is and isnt a threat when the dog has no self control whatsoever? A dog who is very submissive to handler, never showing an ounce of agression towards handler and has a clear understanding of leadership, yet gets so wrapped up and intense that nothing can draw its attention away.

Amber, I completely agree with not taking a trigger happy dog out around alot of people. But in my neighborhood the people are everywhere, people actually wander in my yard, kids play next door ect and I have an obnoxious neighbor who has already called the police 2 times in a matter of 1 week because of barking (when my dogs where NEVER outside unattended, unless in kennel, and are in at night time, unlike my other neighbor who has a dog barking all night long, but thats just a rant).

Kayce, thankyou for your post! I have the utmost respect for those who train exotic/wild animals. I can only imagine how devasting an "accident" can be with one of these animals. And here I am complaining about a 70lb dog, lol.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Well, that really goes for everything doesn't it, for any kind of dog? You don't have to work with a dog you don't like or not compatible with. Why should you? Figure out the kind of dog you like, research the bloodlines, and get that kind of dog. What crosses the line between acceptable and not? It depends on the person. People expect different things from their dogs. 

Just like with Michelle who has a child she can't risk, your dog just wasn't a match with you. The trigger happy dog is a pain in the neck, but speaking for myself, this dog is worth all the trouble. I love this dog. He's a perfect match for me, his stubborn strength easily keeps up with mine, he flips me the finger if I'm too unfair and most of all I think he loves me back. I have other easier, more willing to please dogs and he's the only one who looks at me *that way*. I've put enough training and proofing in him to know I can call him off, I can stop him, I can physically control him if nothing else. I can read him like a book--the only incidents he's ever had were when he was young and I didn't know him at all that well.

Yeah, accidents can happen. The other day I nearly got hit by a car, AFTER making eye contact with the driver before crossing. Take every precaution to lessen the blow if ANYTHING happens, and then you deal with it responsibly and honestly. That's life. 

Check the thread sensitivity to handler...I think it was Mike who said you can have a dog that is submissive, but still self-serving. To add to that, you can have a dog that is submissive but has no respect for you. Or a dog that is submissive, respects you, but doesn't trust you (you can even add more stress to a dog like this). Again, the variables. So many variables. It could be the dog, it could be you, but realistically, it's ALWAYS a mixture of both. Learn with the dog!


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

> I know of two cases in the UK in 2007 where a rottweiler and a cane corso cross both took down their handlers, with no discernible provocation, and no discernible warning. In both cases, the handlers/witnesses initially believed the dog was playing.


Unfortunate, but this is a good example of how dogs get blamed for irresponsible handling. Play for dogs is also dominance posturing, and can easily get out of hand...that's why you shouldn't really be letting dogs (especally big powerful dogs) play with other dogs out of their pack. It is important to know your own capabilities when you get a dog. The right dog for the right owner is vital. I, too, once had to give up a dog. It was a tiny little toy dog that I could never get through and tore me up worse than any dog I've had. I asked too much from it, as it happens. Her new owners adored her, and she took to them, and that's that.

But of course I'm kind of preaching to the choir, saying this here.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Excellent posts Lyn! Seems to be alot of confusion about "sharp", and it's usually a negative connotation.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Loo what happened with the fatal attack of the handler by the grizzly bear just the other day in Los Angeles. According to the news reports the bear was licking the handler and snap - bit him so badly in the neck the guy died right there. From what I have read, this is was a very respected handler/trainer. Here is a link to the story, but of course, we don't really know how much of the story is correct:
http://www.reuters.com/article/oddlyEnoughNews/idUSN2446263220080424


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## Alegria Cebreco (Jul 25, 2007)

That is very true Lynn! Though I loved him he jsut wasnt the dog for me, well at least right now in my life. If my situation was different I would have kept him and worked with him on all his issues, although he was a crazy dog. Everyone was scared of him in my house, I couldnt allow my mother to be scared in her own home. And although he was great with my mother, she is disabled and I just couldnt risk another "incident" with him. I just keep wondering what if that was my mother he lashed out at. I probably would have killed him. Its a better situation for all involved. I had to think of my family first.

What lines would you recommend (I know I'm asking alot of questions)? I want a dog that has the drives to do schutzhund but the same time not a dog thats all prey. But not over the top defense (a more level headed dog, who thinks before reacting), a dog that can truly protect in real life. Also Rade was VERY soft (but still threw random fits when he gets in "the zone") and would completely shut down after a correction. And would scream like a baby even if I only raised my voice, or went in for a collar correction (even before the correction was administered). He acted fearful of me (would roll over when I told him to knock it off) even though I thought I was fair with corrections and praised the good behaviors. So maybe he didnt trust me. I honestly dont know why. I guess a harder dog would be better for me one who can take corrections and move on (as I can be tough at times, but never unfair). I rather deal with agression towards my (the handler) than unwarranted agression towards others. 

My puppy Mace is a mixture of Czech/west german lines. http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/543026.html. Do you think this pup will work out better? I am keeping him no matter what. I am on my third GSD its going to work out! First one, was practically stolen, second one was Rade and now Mace. What lines should I look at in the future?


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## Alegria Cebreco (Jul 25, 2007)

Daryl Ehret said:


> Excellent posts Lyn! Seems to be alot of confusion about "sharp", and it's usually a negative connotation.


Daryl, it was not my intention to portray sharpness in a negative light. I was just curious as to where the line was drawn. I see nothing wrong with a dog that goes 0 to 60 in 3.5 seconds, lol for even a minor threat (ie body language, approaching the dog, voice tone ect). But what makes enough enough. What can make dogs react and where do you cross the line between sharp, nervy and down right vicious. Is it a certain look, and can someone arch and eyebrow and make the dog go off, crossed arms, a piece of hair sticking up? Is either one of those enough to justify a dogs actions? What is enough to classify a dog sharp versus nervy of fearful?


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## Alegria Cebreco (Jul 25, 2007)

Susan I saw that on the news. I guess its a big reminder that animals will be animals (even domesticated ones), and we will never know what goes on in their minds 100% of the time.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Cripes, that pup is dark! Hard to generalize about East, West, and Czech for such specifics. Particular bloodlines are what you might want to zero in on first, and then best living representatives from them.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

_"What is enough to classify a dog sharp versus nervy of fearful?_

It's the combination of both together to really worry about, I suppose. Like Lyn says, it can keep you on your toes, you need to be sharp yourself to handle a sharp dog. All those other temperament characteristics become very important (confidence, ability to discern threat).


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## Kayce Cover (Oct 30, 2007)

Lyn Chen said:


> Unfortunate, but this is a good example of how dogs get blamed for irresponsible handling. Play for dogs is also dominance posturing, and can easily get out of hand...that's why you shouldn't really be letting dogs (especally big powerful dogs) play with other dogs out of their pack.


Good point Lyn, but these were both professional dog people. One woman had years of experience at a professional kennel, and extensive experience with this particular dog and the other woman was staff at Wood Green Animal Shelters, working high risk dogs, for over 7 years. They were not playing with the dogs. In both cases they were simply walking the dogs from one enclosure to another, and one grabbed the arm of his handler and took her down, and the second one came up over her head when she crouched to encourage him to come back into his kennel. (Rethink that idea!)

A 3rd case, a near miss, was last year, and a rotty who had been tested with other dogs,a nd found to be fine with them, suddenly lunged for a passing greyhound and bit her in the thigh so severely that he nearly took her leg off. He ripped the jeans of the handler but did not bite her leg. SOP the handlers pass with dogs to the outside, so a dog has to get past two handlers to grab another dog. Not a problem for this dog. As my colleague put it, she had always believed that when these things happen, there was always a cause and a warning. She no longer believes this and we are collaborating to give staff better tools for safe handling and for training for safety.

I find it a bit unsettling myself, and I don't have to work any of those dogs, directly at least.


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Alegria Cebreco said:


> Rade was VERY soft (but still threw random fits when he gets in "the zone") and would completely shut down after a correction. And would scream like a baby even if I only raised my voice, or went in for a collar correction (even before the correction was administered). He acted fearful of me (would roll over when I told him to knock it off) even though I thought I was fair with corrections and praised the good behaviors. So maybe he didnt trust me. I honestly dont know why.


My (not-all-that-experienced) opinion - I would have been working on very controlled, HAPPY experiences around other people, and giving him choices to work through stress with a positive outcome, rather than correct a puppy like this for acting out. If he is already on edge, lunging out fear-based at other people, a correction from you would not make him any more confident or stable. He'd be even more stressed the next time around, wondering who will hurt him first, the stranger or you. 

Confidence, comes from his trust in your ability to handle the situation, and from good experiences. 

Agree that he was mismatched with you, but I don't know GSD's well enough to suggest lines or breedings for you.


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

Alegria Cebreco said:


> Michele, but how do you teach a dog what is and isnt a threat when the dog has no self control whatsoever? A dog who is very submissive to handler, never showing an ounce of agression towards handler and has a clear understanding of leadership, yet gets so wrapped up and intense that nothing can draw its attention away.


IME, teaching a dog self control involves teaching the dog first and foremost (COME command) and focus to you as the handler. It involves the handler intervening in any and all experiences with the pup *before* any thing escalates, *before* the dog "takes things in his own hands" keeping things all good with you, the handler. 

Of course, IMO, obedience ie: long downs with distractions are great with teaching self control, focus on you when dangling tug around dog--not grabbing at the tug, oh the list goes on and on for fun ways to teach a dog self control. Over time, this makes a big difference in how your dog interacts with the world.

Are you looking to get another dog? What is lil Mace like? Are you participating in sport with them?


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> it depends on the dog. A good dog is a good dog.
> 
> Lyka is very sharp, and I never have a problem with her out in public. Its all in the obedience. I have a bigger problem with Tiko and Yasko because they wanna jump up at everyone that walks by because they love people :roll:


I really couldn't agree more on both points. It does depend on the dog and it's all in the obediance/control a handler has. A nervy dog will generally always be nervy. Training doesn't fix that, at best it serves as a control.

DFrost


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## Alegria Cebreco (Jul 25, 2007)

Daryl he is very dark, lol. From reading these posts I've come to the conclusion that "sharp" can cover a wide spectrum of dogs. Dogs can be sharp but can react out of confidence or fear/nerve issues. 

Anna, most corrections where administered at home when he would do stupid things like growl at my grandmother or mother or try to go after the cat. Pack structure was very important. But in public I learned to just keep him busy and moving. If we were moving at a fast pace he had no chance to act out. The only time I gave him a severe correction in public was when he lunged at a child, that is a big no-no. I will definately be researching bloodlines and find one that is suitable for me. 

Michele, the funny thing is Rade had an incredible recall. I feel the recall is the *most* important thing. He never not returned after me calling him. He was very well-behaved in the house in the front yard (although he would occasionally have the puppy zoomies). But when we were out around people he was in a state of survival (or so he thought). But then he had good days out and bad days. i think he suffers from split personality disorder, lol. 

I'm not looking for another dog right now (maybe in about a year or so). I have alot of work to do with Mace. I hope to do some kind of sport. I am DETERMINED to finish a sport. I WILL title my own dog, lol. I was hoping to get Ryot's BH last June but as many of you know things got complicated and he is no longer with me. And Rade, well what can I say?!

David I agree. It justs makes me wonder when does it become a lost cause. My trainer recommended he be put down. But I figured the breeder could find a better place for him than I could.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Some quotes from Malcom Willis, though not directly relating to sharpness, touch on some of the other elements of character, which ultimately act in dynamic cohesion. In a chapter entitled "The Genetics of Behaviour" there were many aspects measured from various studies and the heritability factors presumed from the samples taken. "Sharpness" isn't really covered (maybe "exciteability"), but to my understanding (and I'm not saying it's correct) is best described as a dog's _threshold to react quickly and aggressively to a stimulus,_ weak or strong nerves being irrelevant. The key being the threshold, and not the motivation.

_"Although aggression and nervousness may appear opposite ends of the scale they may well be related in some instances and are thus discussed together."

"Some aggressive behavior can stem from a failure to put the right dog with the right people. What are often called alpha dogs are those very dominant animals, usually though not exclusively males, which seek to become pack leaders. In the hands of experienced owners who establish their own leadership such alpha dogs can make ideal companions... The same dog in inexperienced hands may quickly establish himself as the pack leader of the whole family (both humans and any other dogs) and from that point on will be unlikely to respond favourably to chastisement by his owner and may even bite his owner if disciplined. Such behavioural activities may reflect badly upon the breed concerned but essentially they stem from failure to place such dogs with experienced people or failure to instruct owners in how to bring up such a dog. Many breeders would prefer to breed dogs that do not possess these alpha characteristics but which are of sound character without nervousness and quite prepared not to be pack leaders."_

Armin Winkler discussion on sharpness...
_"I did a fair bit of research and could not find anything written that stated that this quality has to come together with a low stimulation threshold for threat. So in fact how easily a dog is triggered does not seem to be a factor by definition. But to be fair, when I was growing up, the dogs we called sharp were the ones that would become very aggressive without much provocation. One thing that I never thought of when I used the term sharp was spooking away. In the old East German Koerung system, sharpness was rated from 0-5 with 5 being the most desirable. So when did sharpness become a bad thing? I don't know. I don't think it is a bad thing."_

and then further in discussion on nerves...
_""Strong types" are split into three different separate types as well.

First there is the "strong, unbalanced arousable (excitable) type." This type is referred to as the choleric type. In this type display very strongly developed a rousal (excitement) processes with weakly developed inhibition processes. They often appear unruly and out of control. They have aggressive tendencies, and are very active dogs. Their responses to commands and handsignals that trigger arousal (excitement) processes are very fast. But the accuracy of the performances of tasks is often poor, since inhibition (blocking) processes are weakly developed and arousal processes dominate them. In other words, they do not differentiate as clearly between tasks. The active defensive reaction is pronounced. These dogs appear irascible (easily angered or quick tempered). They have low stimulus thresholds." _

This "strong, unbalanced arousable (excitable) type." is pretty interchangeable with how I view "sharpness".


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## Alegria Cebreco (Jul 25, 2007)

Thankyou Daryl. Very informative! I guess it all comes down to what you like and what you dont. On my next dog I would prefer a more confident dog with a slightly higher threshold for agression. Ryot had a VERY high threshold for agression whereas Rade had a very low threshold. Something in the middle, also agression that does not stem from fear or nerve issues.


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