# Bringsel, works -but not on the collar! ;o)



## Kat Hunsecker

Hello,

Well We are about 4 month into the Bringsel work. We started with two balls as reward, then (finally) found a Bringsel that is not too high of value (so she still can give it up pretty easy) 
Well I guess I need some ideas.I got a Smart dog!
We have been working the bringsel when she get there she get's the Bringsel from the victim.
She then comes back immediately and sometimes I have to help a bit with calling. Occasionally she drops the bringsel and runs a circle and then picks it up and comes back to me.
She gives up the Bringsel fairly easy- I send her for the re find and there she get’s the ball.
The Bringsel has to be low value for her, or she doesn’t want to give it up. It is now braided rope on a hook anything more looks too much like a tug toy for her and then she doesn’t like to give it up. With the ball she started not wanting to come back (she always did but started showing a bit avoidance- since she knew I am gonna take it from her)

Yesterday we clipped the Bringsel to the collar, and the victim would help her ‘find’ the bringsel on the collar. She got a bit frustrated and then with help -She grabbed the Bringsel. Half hearted, and then just dropped it and came to me. Second time we upt the frustration to see if she would grab, victim helped a bit, but my girl didn’t want it, went into passive alert, got frustrated and then she started self rewarding ( finding her own ringsel) a stick, that finally ended up as a “Bringsel” at my side. Third short one we did as usual, so she wouldn’t chain the wrong things together: find, bring Bringsel, re find, ball. 

So my question is now, how do I get my dog to make the connection to get the Bringsel from the collar without self rewarding ( she will pick up not only sticks ,but blankets the victims are snuggled in-she tries to grab the jacket…. Short if she doesn’t get the Bringsel she finds her own) How do I up the reward for bringing the Bringsel back ,when clipped on the collar? Can’t use a higher value Bringsel, cause she will then not want to give it up for the refind. 
I need to think of a method right away, since this girl is really mart and if I am not sure of how to approach it, she will put her own thing together and as we all know retraining things is harder!

Any ideas?


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## Nancy Jocoy

Are you really attached to the bringsel? I just used something similar hung from my belt and the dog tugged it after she got to me when she found the victim. A lot of folks do t hat, or a jump and bump or whatever they can build consistency with.

I started with mine bringing something back but the issue with dropping it, recovering etc was just not worth it for me. Then I think why would I want my dog crashing through the woods with her mouth closed on something? 

Just because they have done it that way in the past does not make it a superior appraoch.


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## Rachel Schumacher

We always used a pretty similar bringsel like the one you clip on the collar. When we were using toys it was only for dogs to get started; i.e. running to a standing person and getting a toy or treat.
I wouldn't let me dog go nuts with toys or bringsels. You need to establish a recall and out with any kind of toy before moving on with bringsels.
We had the dogs retrieving bringels from "victims" for quiet some time. When I did this kind or SAR I never saw a dog that dropped the bringsel. But then the basic thing was that a dog was able to do a retrieve before even starting with this kind of SAR work.
The way you describe it (frustration) your dog has no clue what you want her to do. And it seems retrieving something to you is not fun for her (the circles and not coming back, avoidance).


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## Kat Hunsecker

Hello,

We had the avoidance, when i used the two balls as reward, when we tought the refind.
She went got the ball came straight back to me got her praise, then I took the ball from her and she got to go do the refind. After a few times she figured out i would take the ball and she started hesitating. She still would come-don't get me wrong- buti could see I might be creating a problem If I spend too much time doing this.
-so we switched to a braided rope as a bringsel and she came straight back to me again. 
This one she gladly brings back to me. And doesn't have an issue to give it up. She still wants her Ball, and this is why she circles occationally, before returning it to me. Because the superior reward is the ball at the victim. She circles occationally because she wants her ball and then drops the bringsel but picks it up, since she knows she has to bring ti to me, and then she goes back for the ball.
At the victim she does a passive alert until I get there to touch the victim-this is when she get's her ball.

the recall is not a problem, she is very good at that. She loves bringing the ball back to me, she found her ball, she comes close to me, even snugs up and wants to be close with chomping on the ball at the same time.
She is a trained a narc, has very high ball drive, and reward comes from me, so she doesn't have issues with keeping the reward away from me.
the Bringsel is not hanging on my pants or on me. She started herself picking up rewards and bringing it back to me, so we introduced the Bringsel that is given away by the victim, and later is supposed to be attached to her collar, for selfpickup, when she finds the victim.

She is pretty secure with the find re find, when she get's the bringsel handed to her. We clipped it to her collar the first time yesterday and were hopeing she would just latch on to it and bring it back like she usually does, but she doesn't. She finds her own bringsel instead. She came when called, this is how we could fix the mess up or whatever we did wrong so it didn't work.
We changed the game on her- she didn't like it. but i am affraid to change it again without having a plan to help her along. she is smart and quik to learn things. and I don't want to teach her wrong too long.


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## Kat Hunsecker

Ok i didn't find the Edit button. But i found a video that might help clarify... If you look over a few handler errors... LOL
I had the camera and well then it gets harder... LOL
This was one long search, funny winds, you see here the end sequence. She found the victim and got the bringsel handed to her. She comes, accidently drops the bringsel because she chomps on it. a bit and then I accidendtly initiated a game of tug. Instead of embracing her and gently take it, i grabed it because i had the camera and she though we are playing tug o war. there absolutly handler fault. And the hesitant refind is due to this,too.
And at the end, my victim didn't hide the ball well enough so I couldn't touch her before she snatched the ball.

so this may help!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJIeevDAZmQ


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## Max Orsi

Judging from the video you posted a more clear "game", betwen your dog and you, with tug, rope or ball will resolve all your issue

happy training 

max


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## Michele Fleury

IMO, having the dog bringing something back as part of the refind is problematic because of the self reward issues (I've seen the same problem with dogs that are rewarded with sticks), and then there's the mauling the victim takes when the dog thinks it has to bring something back from the victim. That can be very scary for a real lost subject. It seems like an extra step that you don't really need unless you are required to train this behavior by whatever group/organization you are with. The dog is already doing a refind, so just have it do something obvious when it gets back to you, like jump on you, or bark and withhold the ball until the dog brings you to the victim. You really need to avoid self reward opportunities because even if you think you've trained beyond it, they can show up when the dog is tired and frustrated with no find after several hours of working.](*,)


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## Nancy Jocoy

I would say 4 months trying to build the alert with the bringsel is way too long. ! 

You should be able to knock out the recall-refind system in less than a month or two at most - well before you actually start search problems. It is the first thing you train and all you should train until it is solid and reliable.

So if you are still really attached to doing this, that is what I would do. No scentwork, nada, until this part is knocked out and 100%. 

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Another problem I have with the bringsel, which I really did consider at one point is the Widlerness dog may be a quarter to a half mile away from you and doing multiple refinds. That is a lot to ask them to carry something and what if it gets snagged or falls off the collar? - most of them have wimpy little clips.

The bump, the bark, the tug at handler are common and they work - I have heard not recommended are things that take the dog to a passive state like sitting or downing at the handler. 

I once forget to clip the tug on my belt and the frustration in my dog during a night problem you could see - she did not go for sticks but she jumped up and grabbed the flashlight out of my hand. Actually, though forgetting to take an object during a search [and there is some adrenaline going on in real life] is another good reason not to make your sequence depend on "things".....I think were I going to go with another air scent dog it woiuld be the bump or something else the dog offered I could shape.


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## Kat Hunsecker

Hello,

What you saw in the video isn't our best, but the system we now use.
She does refind. It took her just a few days to quit scratching at people (used to do active alert) and come back to me. In this phase we didn't use a bringsel. 
We started with a ball and then tought the refind, then introduced the actual bringsel.
I am not required to use a bringsel. But we decided to use one, since it is appearantly my dogs preference to bring something back to me.
We were working on the find refind, when she started picking up...- uhhm trees and bringing them back to me. Another time, she stole the blanket the victim was sitting on and the final decition was -when she grabed a blanket and playd tug-o- war with it.... 
So we decided it might be a better thing to teach her to bring a bringsel back to me, then the blankets or at the end maybe the whole victim...LOL

She will not jump on me, not a good behavior for her to teach as an alert. My friends dog does it, but i know my Anka would not do it.
The four month timespan I considered the build up work for the bringsel. We had though about using it after the first couple of times, since she reliably came back to me and since she is not a dog that likes to jump on people we were thinking about having the bringsel on my belt instead of her collar. 
We started the SAR think back in November, and were working towards using the bringsel. She retrieves it from the victim now for 3-4 weeks. so 5 or 6 times. I don't think this was too long.
I just considered the whole training up for alert refind etc as bringsel work.

So we are stuck now with the problem that she doesn't like holding the bringsel when it is on the collar. 
I frankly don't care what alert she gives me, but under the thieving circumstances it might be the better option for the dog. unless you have a different idea!
I just have to find the best way to teach her, that the bringsel on the collar is as interesting as the one handed to her.
I used the method the dog offered, but now we are a bit stuck. 

@ Max: I agree whole heartedly with you!!! This wasn't very clear communication.... Usually we aren't that bad. But I am prone to all sorts of mess ups when there is a camera involved.... For me and my dogs it is always the" show off" effect....


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## Guest

I too would switch your indication to something your dog will do more naturally, most likely bump or bark. Bringsel seems like something best imprinted at and begun as puppy foundation work and really only for a dog that it fits. It is a more complex behavior with more places for breakdown, especially in a tired dog as others have stated. I don't think a bringsel indication is for every dog. I don't think it is for most dogs. Trying to fit a a square peg into a round hole seems to give people lots of problems in SAR and, oddly, seems to be something people really enjoy trying to do.


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## Kat Hunsecker

hmmm more naturally... Maybe it didn't come out clear before...but she picked this type of alert, she started bringing me things. Starting with the logs and then the blanket... 
jumping up on me is not her thing. Or what else is consiedred more natural?


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## Nancy Jocoy

I think if you are committed to the bringsel, you need to work it out with someone who has had success with that device.

A lot of dogs pick up sticks and things and I would generally ignore - don't want dog to self reward. The same dog would probably do fine if you put the bringsel on your belt and taught the dog to tug on it....

Did you backchain the training? Have you considered backing off of scentwork and only doing alert training until it is done? Getting into a rush is the number one place I have seen folks screw up. You have to build the foundation first.


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## Kat Hunsecker

Thank you, We are working now on the refinds, primarily, the first search is a little longer, so she is a little more relaxed at the work. She knows the system-we just add scents (-from the narcotics) She is good at fidning and airscening, so in this area it is just a metter of doing it. Am not to worried bout it. We currently focus on the refind and alert.. It is not a problem for ehr to bring it back, we just re hanging right now on the spot, that when we clip it on the collar, she will not hold it, she drops it.
I started now, doing bring work away from the SAR training, that works about the same. But I do not have it yet on the collar. We'll see how it will go in a couple of days.
I just have one person here to help me with this, and we are not 100% on how to procede. Maybe we have a wrong line of thinking someplace... talking to others usually helps figuring it out!

I think about the belt tug, this is what I had originally planned, but am hesitant, she is a hell of a tugger!!!! Yesterday I was working on the retrieve and rewarded with the ball, at the end she had "lock jaw" LOL.


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## Nancy Jocoy

If the belt tug is not that attractive she may release for a really good tidbit if she is hungry. But out should be in her vocabulary! A dog with a good tug is a good thing.

I would break it down with back chaining.

Send me an email address and I can send you a nice, step by step article that breaks it down -it is by Trish Heldman of Task9 in Connecticut - but it is how many put together the complete sequence - I got my sequence down with my husband in the back yard.

I gather you are not on a team? That would be what you need even if you have to drive a few hours for training.

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I must admit I am a bit confused about the crosstraining? I don't think you would want a narc dog searching for missing people.


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## Kat Hunsecker

Thank you, will send you my email.

Well It is unusual, but she has the temperament. she is not a dual purpose, she is just a narc. 
Shehas a very sweet in personality. and she can difference between the two taslks. she does narc on leash and SAR off leash


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## Nancy Jocoy

Ok, my concern - question is that there are sometimes drugs in the woods - such as pot and hidden meth labs - private vehicles on private property [not in pubic areas]

I don't know ........ I would be very concerned about getting into a dicey situation. Dog gets tired and frustrated and finds narcotics [first training] she is going to revert to that behavior and then what the heck do you do - there are so many legalities there - such as you may have legal cause to search in an area for the live person without permission because that is implied, but what if your dog finds drugs there and you are on private property without a warrant? 

I know a lot of folks claim their dogs "know the difference" but I just feel a dog with only one job in its head is a better dog - - - but that is me, personally.


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## Kat Hunsecker

Hello,
thanks for the article. 
I do understand your concern. It may happen. But this is where i am very clear about the rituals. Drugs she works on leash just collar, SAR: off leash w/ vest. It stays different for the dog. plus different commands.
Dual prupose dogs may not get trained in SAR but they do find people, too (to bite). And they find narcs. Not all dogs are suited for this dual work. But they know the task. 
If I find drugs- I have to notify officals. I know a lot of private businesses run narc dogs- you just find -they handle the fomalities. 
Anka loves searching for narc, but she knows when on duty for this and when not. Though I think in a building she could revert to narc work while on leash.
We actrually were in a building once and while on leash she displayed the narc search behavior- she knew we are going to work, i let her go offleash, and you are right she was thinking and not quite sure, but this was maybe the third or fourth time. But second-same day search was no problem. I agree, I have to stick her in a building again. This,too, takes practice.


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## Kat Hunsecker

Ok, here is an update from us!!!
Anka is great she chained all behaviors together!!! The Bringsel works! We just for fun threw in scent specific work and she is good at that,too. We had a search with kid and Dad together , but the video of it isn't very good. but she distinguished between DAd and child (she had the childs scent) and grabed the Bringsel after she sniffed the child!!!
But here is the video where she chained everything together, it is a fairly good one! Just a little blair whitch effect..;o)
We are proud and continue working hard... But most of all we have fun!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzinkRc3D_4


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