# teeth cleaning



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Years ago, my daughter informed me of a canine dental hygienist who lives part of the year in Massachusetts and part in San Diego, and she cleans dogs' teeth without anesthesia.

We can't remember her name right now, but I'm looking for it.

Meanwhile, if others have info about dental hygienists who work without anesthesia, I think it would be a great addition here. 

This woman relieved my daughter completely about her fears around general anesthesia for a minor procedure like this (which I share).


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

Hi Connie, that would have ALOT to do with the dogs temperment, LOL
AL


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Al Curbow said:


> Hi Connie, that would have ALOT to do with the dogs temperment, LOL
> AL


Oh, absolutely! LOL! She was very good at it, though -- a very calming presence. She tested the dog's temperament first, natch, before actually opening his mouth and diving in!

She did my daughter's BTs, but she also described GSDs and other big dogs she had worked on. 

Yes, of course you are 100% correct that it won't be a guaranteed success for every dog.

Also, she says up front that deep pockets of placque/gum disease cannot be done that way. What she does w/o anesthesia is only work that causes no pain to the dog.


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## Anne Jones (Mar 27, 2006)

If you feed a raw diet .....you don't have to worry about plaque or tarter on your dogs teeth.


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## Greg Long (Mar 27, 2006)

Anne Jones said:


> If you feed a raw diet .....you don't have to worry about plaque or tarter on your dogs teeth.


Ditto! :lol:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Anne Jones said:


> If you feed a raw diet .....you don't have to worry about plaque or tarter on your dogs teeth.


Oh, absolutely, but many have switched to raw after a little tartar had already formed, and some have adopted or rescued.

But I sure do agree about those RMB \"toothbrushes\" !  I have two adopted adults who actually have reversed the light tartar they had, with nothing but the switch to raw when they got to me.

I'm trying not to be such an avid advocate of raw that I turn it into a religion, which I have seen happen. I do believe that there are some options now that dogs can thrive on. 

I don't think there were many good commercial options even ten or fifteen years ago, but now I could make recommendations to a person who preferred not to feed raw, and feel quite good about it.

It's good that the forum members on this board are not the \"my way or the highway\" type.........keep me in line, because I do tend to be the bossy type. (Oldest of seven children syndrome.....)


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

This is one of the best reasons to go back to raw. When I first put my three (then) terriers on raw, I had just finished scaling their teeth. I've always done my dogs teeth myself, twice a year. One of the three I left the tartar as a control. Within six months, his teeth were almost as clean as the two that I had scaled.
When I lost my job, I got away from raw and the two remaining terrier's teeth are needing cleaning again. The oldest pass at 13yrs old but the last two yrs he was like a new puppy on the raw. 
Thunder has never done raw but He flosses on a sleeve 2-3 times a week. He's got lovley teeth.    :wink:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Connie! I just read the \"oldest of seven\" statement. 
I'm third of seven. MAN! My two older sisters used to beat the $#!+ outa me. :evil: :lol: :lol: :wink:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Connie! I just read the \"oldest of seven\" statement.
> I'm third of seven. MAN! My two older sisters used to beat the $#!+ outa me. :evil: :lol: :lol: :wink:


Yeah..............we are three girls, one boy, three more girls.........


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Poor guy!  :lol: :lol: :wink:


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

When I was a groomer, we had a guy in the shop who also did \"teeth cleaning\". My problem with it is I don't think they can do as good a job as they can at the vet with light sedation. All said & done, I am glad RMB do such a great job!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> When I was a groomer, we had a guy in the shop who also did \"teeth cleaning\". My problem with it is I don't think they can do as good a job as they can at the vet with light sedation. .....


Oh, absolutely, and this dental hygienist did both, and made no secret of the difference in what could be done each way.

It's a great option, though, for someone who has a poor candidate for anesthesia, with some placque. (For example, a senior overweight dog, or many bracheocephalic breeds....)

I hope to have the info on hand for the next dog I adopt, just in case s/he has less-than-spotless teeth -- I could do that no-anesthesia cleaning and then let RMBs take over.


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## Rashmi Kumar (Apr 7, 2006)

Connie,

As you know I feed RAW. But for last few months, I have been feeding RAW and Wellness. I guess I need to switch back to 100% RAW to get the perfect health of his teeth. Correct? He gets so hyper or completly calm as I try to clean his teeth  
For him, it is the end of the world if I put my fingers on this teeth. I never used a brush, just a wet cloth- rub it on his gums (for Gum message) and on his teeth.

Rashmi


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## Anne Jones (Mar 27, 2006)

Rashmi, Just make a note that if you feed raw & kibble...do not do it in the same meal....they digest at different rates of speed. I feed Honest Kitchen as a supplement to my raw breakfast meal. I purchase it locally from a specialty pet shop, but Leerburg sells it if you can't get it locally & are intested in trying it. They have a web site also with all the info about the food. I use the Embark. It is a dehydrated raw food that you just add water & wha-la in 10 minutes ..a meal. Great for traveling.) Just a scoop or so for each dog. I find that this gives them the veggies etc that I don't then have to prepare seperately. I do still give them some raw veggies time to time (put thru the food processor to breakdown the cellular wall) I just don't have to do it daily when I use the HK. Saves me some work & time. It is pricey, but a great alternative to kibble if you would really like to feed raw & for some reason can't. Just a thought.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Anne Jones said:


> Rashmi, Just make a note that if you feed raw & kibble...do not do it in the same meal....they digest at different rates of speed. I feed Honest Kitchen as a supplement to my raw breakfast meal. I purchase it locally from a specialty pet shop, but Leerburg sells it if you can't get it locally & are intested in trying it. They have a web site also with all the info about the food. I use the Embark. .....


I too am a big fan of Embark. I use it for backup (empty freezer, no time to shop...) and occasionally as an addition to the RMBs and meat (for the same reasons you do, Anne).

Anne advises you well on the kibble, too, and not feeding raw and kibble in the same meal.

The flaw is indeed that the digestion rate is very different......and why do we care? We care because it can force the raw to remain in the dog's system for three times as long as nature would have it, thus potentially losing some of what protects dogs from e.Coli, salmonella, etc. (speed of digestion; lack of time in contact with the intestinal system).

BTW, Rashmi. C.E.T. now has a dental rinse for dogs, which you might like to try (if your vet agrees) after a kibble meal. It's not a substitute for brushing! Just as for us, mouthwash isn't a substitute for brushing, but it can wash away some of the placque-forming bacteria. It's alcohol-free. It gets squirted along the gum line.

Also, you might have better luck with the tiny brushy thing that slips over one finger rather than a big cloth or brush.

I have done this with past dogs by gradually getting them used to a finger in the mouth. Do it when he's tired and relaxed, and gradually just stroke his throat (many dogs like that) and \"accidentally\" stroke the side of the mouth every now and then. This did not take me long to get to where he didn't mind his mouth being handled, and then when he tasted the chicken-flavor toothpaste, all was well! 8)


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Connie, thanks for the explanation on why not to feed kibble & raw together. I've always bbeen told not to, but I didn't understand why...NOW I get it! 8)


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## Rashmi Kumar (Apr 7, 2006)

I am glad to see that you guys use \"Embark\". Number of stores in NYC sells the \"Honest Kitchen.\" food. Cheaper too.   
I was in a dilemma for the longest as to which one of the three- Force, Verve or Embark to use always relying on Embark. But my pouch is not allergic to grainsso I guess I can provide grains on top of it?
I guess as Embark is not in a pure RAW food form, I will have to clean his teeth? 
Also, Can I mix Raw Meat, RMB with it or should I give them separately?


Rashmi


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Rashmi Kumar said:


> I am glad to see that you guys use \"Embark\". Number of stores in NYC sells the \"Honest Kitchen.\" food. Cheaper too.
> I was in a dilemma for the longest as to which one of the three- Force, Verve or Embark to use always relying on Embark. But my pouch is not allergic to grainsso I guess I can provide grains on top of it?
> I guess as Embark is not in a pure RAW food form, I will have to clean his teeth? ....Also, Can I mix Raw Meat, RMB with it or should I give them separately?....Rashmi


You can indeed mix raw meat, RMBs, with Embark. It's not cooked like kibble, and digests quickly like raw.

You might want to do his teeth, period, no matter what else you are feeding besides raw.

Grains: IMO, dogs didn't evolve eating grains. They don't need grains. Their digestive systems evolved eating only the tiny grain amount that they may have devoured in their prey's intestines. 

My own opinion is that a lot of grains contribute to the development of allergies, and to the development of more serious ailments, because of the stress on the pancreas to produce the enzymes to process grains. (Dogs don't produce the salivary enzyme we do, amylase, that starts the breakdown of grains and cellulose.) 

So my opinion is that I would rather skip grains entirely (and I do), with the occasional small exception of a little well-cooked rice gruel for diarrhea or the occasional dog treat that might contain grains (but not for a dog with allergies).

The language used about the grainfree version being for dogs who \"cannot tolerate grains,\" is so worded not to make the foods WITH grains sound unusable, IMO only.


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## Rashmi Kumar (Apr 7, 2006)

Thanks. That's much clearer.

Rashmi


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## Anne Jones (Mar 27, 2006)

Well said,Connie, as usual. I didn't go into the reason for the feeding of kibble & raw at the same time, assuming that the fact that they digest at a different rate was the explaination in its self. I guess that I didn't take into account that not everyone knew that the reason that dogs can eat raw & foods that we can't without getting sick is due to the fast pass thru the digestive track & therefore not enough time for things to forment & cause problems like salminella, e-coli, etc. I guess that I should, as they say, never assume.  I also think that feeding Honest Kitchen with grains...kinda defeats the purpose of feeding raw.....no grain !!!! I guess if I wanted to feed grains, I'd just feed kibble & save myself a whole lot of trouble & $$$$. Dogs don't need carbs. I don't know why people insist on feeding them to their dogs. The only grain a canovour gets in the wild is as you stated, a predigested form that is in the stomach of their kill. That is why dogs do not have the ability to break down the cellular wall on veggies etc...they are not made to digest them first hand only 2nd hand already predigested by their kill.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

*diet - grains/carbs/etc.*



Anne Jones said:


> ..... I also think that feeding Honest Kitchen with grains...kinda defeats the purpose of feeding raw.....no grain !!!! I guess if I wanted to feed grains, I'd just feed kibble & save myself a whole lot of trouble & $$$$. Dogs don't need carbs. I don't know why people insist on feeding them to their dogs. The only grain a canovour gets in the wild is as you stated, a predigested form that is in the stomach of their kill. That is why dogs do not have the ability to break down the cellular wall on veggies etc...they are not made to digest them first hand only 2nd hand already predigested by their kill.


Yes, this is the basis of the disagreement between b.a.r.f. and prey-model folks.

We have to remember that carbs are not just cereal/grain carbs. Carbs are also in green vegetables, berries, all produce, in fact, yogurt (and all dairy), and so on. For me, I always like to be clear and say grains when I mean the grain carbs, because I actually do feed the type of produce that dogs may have eaten in the wild (and wolves still do, I believe) when the prey situation was/is not perfect.......and I think it rarely was/is perfect.

So I feed greens and a little ripe fruit, both of which I believe replicate closely what the prey's intestinal contents plus the fallen produce an opportunistic scavenger would eat.

After reading convincing arguments on both sides of prey-model v. b.a.r.f., I decided I'd rather err on the side of abundance and not take from the diet (since I have control and the dog can't correct any errors I make) any macronutrients that the dog ever would eat in the wild and that would be part of the dog's evolution (IMO).

In order to break down the tougher outside cell walls of greens, as opposed to fallen produce, such as fruits and berries, and to approximate the partly-digested state of prey contents, I do cook and/or process the vegetables.

And about adding salmon oil and Vitamin E.........we've gone into that here. :lol:

Good post, Anne....thank you!


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