# PP and Schutzhund



## ryan mulrooney (Aug 9, 2008)

hi guys/girls i have been doing schutzhund for about a year now. i absolutely love it but am a little concered about my guy becoming equipment fixated. to avoid this i was thinking about also doing some PP, schutzhund is till my main forcus, but i want my guy to be able to also give some leg bites ect. what do you guys think? opinions? good idea/ bad idea? why? thanks


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

I'm sure others will chime in, but most people do not do this because they don't want the dog to target another part of the body during the protection phase


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## Dwyras Brown (Nov 21, 2008)

If you want the dog not to fixate on one part of the body, you might want to try ring sports. That way you want get points taken for the dog going for whats available and not just the sleeve. But I have heard of Police K9s being used in schutzhund, so it could work.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

You might want to consult with the people your training Schutzhund with before you step into this. 
I have done some suite work on my dog for specific lessons for Schutzhund only it had nothing to do with PP or ring sports. 
PP training will be counter productive for your Schutzhund.


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

Ryan,

How old is your dog? Whos your trainer? 

The reason I ask is that many TD do not feel comfortable working younger dogs in defense. It is easier and safer to develope a dog in prey. We have a couple very strong prey dogs that our TD has been working in higher defense to hopefully alleviate the sleeve fixation (that you are worried about) these dogs are not puppies any more and our TD is awesome. 

I would speak to your TD about starting to develope the defense. There could be a great reason that you TD does not want to use defense on your dog that you may not be aware of. 

That being said bite suits are also equipment. Any trained dog should be able to tell if the helper is wearing his sleeve/suit. 

If you are serious about Schutzhund I would wait on the ring/pp until you have finished your schutzhund career.


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## Al Lewis (Feb 3, 2009)

Equipment fixation can be a problem but can be avoided by good decoy work. As your dog gets more experience, a good decoy will add pressure and a shade of defense so the dog learns that the man is a potential threat. This is not contradictory to Schutzhund but an integral part in many good Schutzhund clubs. Personal Protection (PP) is not something to dabble in. It can be a very serious endeavor with a very different focus than Schutzhund, so if you choose to pursue it, do so with that in mind. PP is not a quick fix for an equipment fixation issue, although when done correctly, it certainly will fix that issue.

As for leg bites, they are harder than they seem as it is difficult to find a good decoy (depending on where you live) that can teach and train in legs bites. Having said that, I do not see a reason a Schutzhund-only dog needs leg bites - as I've mentioned, it sounds like adding a bit of defense to the training will overcome this hurdle without the added potential conflicts/complications (picture the surprise of a decoy in the blind when he gets bit in the leg) that come with leg biting dogs in Schutzhund.

Good luck in whichever route you choose!


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Rite now I wish my dog were a little more fixated on equipment he is coming in to the blind hot as hell and coming rite up into the helpers face very dangerously close.  Measures need to be taken immediately we had a close one Saturday.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

A 16 week old dobie is what you have, right? I bet you are young as well. My advise to you is to keep doing Schutzhund and learn with your dog. Schutzhund is a great place to learn. Many things you can learn here not just about the sport but about dogs too. Stay away from PPD right now. Watch, learn and get a better understanding first.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Jerry Lyda said:


> A 16 week old dobie is what you have, right? I bet you are young as well. My advise to you is to keep doing Schutzhund and learn with your dog. Schutzhund is a great place to learn. Many things you can learn here not just about the sport but about dogs too. Stay away from PPD right now. Watch, learn and get a better understanding first.


I Jerry I see you did a little detective work.
It's good advice


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## ryan mulrooney (Aug 9, 2008)

thank you for everyone for the advice. i can now see how PP and Schutzhund would conflict. he is doing great in schutzhund and we are both having a great time, so ill just concentration all our efforts on that.
PPD isnt something i necessarily wanted to get into. i was just looking for something i could do bite suit work with. but as everyone already said, i can see how they would conflict.



Jerry Lyda said:


> A 16 week old dobie is what you have, right? I bet you are young as well. My advise to you is to keep doing Schutzhund and learn with your dog. Schutzhund is a great place to learn. Many things you can learn here not just about the sport but about dogs too. Stay away from PPD right now. Watch, learn and get a better understanding first.


i agree, nice detective work! i must have posted that when i first signed up to the site. he is 10 months now. yes, in terms of the schutzhund world, at least here in ontario, canada, i am young at 23.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Ryan since you are doing sport Schutzhund, check with your TD to see what they think. There is a difference in training styles and bite techniques. Also, think about the poor decoys...the dog is first trained to bite the sleeve. Now the decoy has to reflect on IF the dog is going to transfer to the leg bite b/c he isn't getting a sleeve bite fast enough.

Sure police departments get dogs from the Schutzhund world. And they also get rid of them for the same reason. If it is equipment fixed, if they can't refocus bite imprinting, the K-9 tool is useless. About ten years ago, I looked into a Dover PD dog which was for sale. The dog would chase you down, B&H, but would not engage the man...If I were a K-9 cop and that were the dog I put my life on the line with...see the point? 

Cross training can be done and be successful. Before you do it, double check with your sport folks!


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Just to be 23 again. Young folks is what I like to see coming up in any dog venue. GO GET'M RYAN.


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## ryan mulrooney (Aug 9, 2008)

thanks again guys/girls!


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

I also plan on doing PP with Judge. BUT after his Schutzhund titles are finished or close to it is when we will start to dabble in it. He's only 18 months, so we have a lot of time left. 

ryan- I would recommend that you do something along the same lines if you really want Schutzhund titles. I have not met a TD that recommends doing PP at the same time you do Schutzhund

Courtney


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## Chip Blasiole (Jun 7, 2006)

Ryan, there is good article in the March/April 2008 edition of Police K-9 magazine by Jerry Bradshaw re: focusing the dog on the person rather equipment. Your dog is a little young and I don't know what traits he brings to the bitework, but you might be able to look at the article at 
http://www.PoliceK-9Magazine.com or purchase a back edition.
One of the first goals is to get your dog to light up/show aggression toward a passive subject/decoy on command, who is not wearing equipment. 
Another goal would be for your dog to bite a sleeve held by a decoy wearing a bitesuit. After the grip, the decoy slips the sleeve, and passively walks away. With proper training and temperament, the dog should spit the sleeve and go after the decoy. Obviously, your dog has to be on a suit, so that might be another goal for you, and your dog is not too young for suitwork if he is taught properly.
Jerry offers some training approaches to achieve these goals. First, the dog is tied out, and he has to be in the point of his training where he will aggress on command to a decoy without equipment. If you are not doing bitework with your dog on a tieout, that could be another goal, where the dog learns to work with confidence away from the handler. After the dog does that, the decoy can agitate the dog and then picks up a sleeve laying on the ground in the area and gives the dog a bite and slips the sleeve. The decoy then tries to draw the dog back onto him by agitating the dog without eqipment. The goal is for the dog to come back on the man by spitting the sleeve. If the dog spits the sleeve, the decoy picks up another sleeve and gives the dog a bite for focusing on him. 
The next step involves a sleeve and hidden sleeve. The dog is worked on a backtie again and is agitated after alerting on a passive decoy and is given a bite on a hidden sleeve. The dog is lifted off the bite rather than outed so as to keep the frustration high. The decoy withdraws and then gives the dog a bite on a regular sleeve. He slips the sleeve and challenges the dog, and ideally the dog spits the sleeve and rebites the hidden sleeve.
The training progresses from there with some other challenges added in. The decoy needs to have some skills in reading the dog and pressuring the dog, as well as having good timing. The dog needs to have some maturity and some basic foundation laid before he is ready for this type of work. Also, the dog has to have some aggression to his temperament. You could get started by teaching your dog to light up on command to a passive decoy without equipment. Try to get the article, as it has a lot more information than I have time to put into a post.


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## ryan mulrooney (Aug 9, 2008)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Ryan, there is good article in the March/April 2008 edition of Police K-9 magazine by Jerry Bradshaw re: focusing the dog on the person rather equipment. Your dog is a little young and I don't know what traits he brings to the bitework, but you might be able to look at the article at
> http://www.PoliceK-9Magazine.com or purchase a back edition.
> One of the first goals is to get your dog to light up/show aggression toward a passive subject/decoy on command, who is not wearing equipment.
> Another goal would be for your dog to bite a sleeve held by a decoy wearing a bitesuit. After the grip, the decoy slips the sleeve, and passively walks away. With proper training and temperament, the dog should spit the sleeve and go after the decoy. Obviously, your dog has to be on a suit, so that might be another goal for you, and your dog is not too young for suitwork if he is taught properly.
> ...


thank you. there seem to be some really good techniques in there. i just purchased a new bungee so i will try and impliment some of these techniques!


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## Chip Blasiole (Jun 7, 2006)

I would not use a bungee tie out for this type of training. Just use a regular long line. If your dog is sensitive to corrections, you might try using a harness, but that is probably not neccessary. Just be sure the dog is at the end of the line while it is fully extended so that if he comes into drive and moves forward toward the decoy, he doesn't get a self correction. I see the bungee more for building frustration and working on grip and strikes. I really don't like to use them much myself. Using a bungee for this training would likely just be a huge distraction for the dog, which you don't want since you are trying to teach him something new.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Any dog that is distracted from the helper by the bungee shouldn't be fed. : )

Does this person know how to use the bungee properly ???

Also, since when does PP training screw up Sch ??? I know you guys watered it down, but what the heck would you be doing to screw it up ???


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

It shouldn't be a problem doing both . If you do it right the dogs can figure out pretty quick which is a game and which is for real . 

We do both and are very successsful at both . We don't do Schtz. but we have won nationals several times in the USPCA . The K9 must take the arm in USPCA and is judged amongst other things on quality of bite , commitment , recall and out . For the street we work realistic training targeting other areas , using bitesuits and muzzles . We've taken KNPV and other dogs with different types of training and have transitioned them very easily to this also .

We are very successful at competition and real street work and the dogs don't have a problem transitioning between them . As you all know dogs are very smart and learn quckly what is expected of them in different situations . 

Now the club you are in may not feel the same way and you have to work with them .


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

I prefer to have a dog primarily target either upper or lower, with that being said, I also want them to understand that they can bite the other if needed. The thing with Sch is that they use the sleeve as the big prize and not the person. The right decoy can build up the dog using a sleeve but still have him focused on the decoy rather than just wanting the sleeve. Like Jim said, you can have a dog target anywhere on the suit and still understand to target the sleeve. A dog will understand the difference. Since the dogs background is Sch, I would see if I could move him to the suit, teach him other targets on the upper body and then introduce some leg bites to let him understand that its allowed as a secondary. If Sch is all you are going to do then I would stay away from the legs and work only on the upper body in a suit or sleeve. But remember, its about the dog being focused on the decoy and not just the sleeve or suit. Good luck and have fun.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

jay lyda said:


> The right decoy can build up the dog using a sleeve but still have him focused on the decoy rather than just wanting the sleeve. Like Jim said, you can have a dog target anywhere on the suit and still understand to target the sleeve. A dog will understand the difference. Since the dogs background is Sch, I would see if I could move him to the suit, teach him other targets on the upper body and then introduce some leg bites to let him understand that its allowed as a secondary. If Sch is all you are going to do then I would stay away from the legs and work only on the upper body in a suit or sleeve. But remember, its about the dog being focused on the decoy and not just the sleeve or suit. Good luck and have fun.


Through my years doing Schutzhund guessing over 100 dogs come and go through our club I can recall only ONE that hat has become totally fixated on equipment and we DO NOT work our dogs at all hard in defence we go in and out depends on the age and the dog. 
The dog will let the helper know when to start working the dogs over the sleeve and such again it depends on the dog.
Like Jay said its all in good helper work and gauging the dog understanding how much and when.
I will say and so will judges proper Schutzhund the dog SHOULD NOT be fixated on equipment it is about the man that is how it is supposed to be and that is how it SHOULD be trained.
Jim I would say 75% of the dogs that have come and gone through our club would have had little trouble adapting working as cop dogs.
We have old school believes and use modern methods most of the time.
Jim if you ever get board some Tuesday evening or a Saturday Nicole used to be a member of our club she could steer you our way or she might come out also her dog is getting old but she occasionally brings her out for a little fun.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Mike , 

Thanks for the invite . I've been out there 2 or 3 times . This was before Nichole was a member . I was there for a Micheal Ellis seminar also . I've also been to another club . I think it was the St Croix one and watched some dogs going for there titles .


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