# Need advice regarding Dutch Shepherd breeder



## Mike Howard

Hello folks, 

So this is my situation. Within the next 1-2 years, I want to purchase a Dutch Shepherd. I want a good solid dog, with good nerves, but nothing crazy. 

I will not be using this dog for sport. He will be a house/companion dog and I will be working him in obedience and PP (and maybe some tracking). 

I am a very active individual, and will be taking this dog hiking, camping, jogging, to the park, etc. 

Again, I will be doing obedience and personal protection work with this dog, but no sport--so prey drive is not _as_ important. Besides, I want a dog that I can live with. 

I will be purchasing this dog in Europe. Does anybody know of any decent breeders that would have dogs that fit my criteria? I know it can be variable, but any ideas?


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## Mike Howard

Mike Howard said:


> Hello folks,
> 
> So this is my situation. Within the next 1-2 years, I want to purchase a Dutch Shepherd. I want a good solid dog, with good nerves, but nothing crazy.
> 
> I will not be using this dog for sport. He will be a house/companion dog and I will be working him in obedience and PP (and maybe some tracking).
> 
> I am a very active individual, and will be taking this dog hiking, camping, jogging, to the park, etc.
> 
> Again, I will be doing obedience and personal protection work with this dog, but no sport--so prey drive is not _as_ important. Besides, I want a dog that I can live with.
> 
> I will be purchasing this dog in Europe. Does anybody know of any decent breeders that would have dogs that fit my criteria? I know it can be variable, but any ideas?


I should add that nerves are more important than prey drive for me.


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## mike suttle

Mike Howard said:


> I should add that nerves are more important than prey drive for me.


If you must buy a puppy from Europe, I would suggest buying it from van Leeuwen Kennels.


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## Vendo Vincent

I breed working FCI registered Dutch shepherds in Australia,we export to US. www.ck9sas.com.au 
Some ok vids but a bit old on you youtube www.youtube.com/vendov

If in Europe can highly recomend http://www.czylwik.se/


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## andreas broqvist

Do you think he ment sweden when he was talikng about Europe? Often its Belgium, Franc, Germany and so on.

But if you want to look at sweden to http://www.havrevingen.se/ is the biggest kennel in sweden in think. Many of the dogs http://www.czylwik.se/ have is from havreringens erlyer breedings.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Mike Howard said:


> I should add that nerves are more important than prey drive for me.


Just curious... Why does the dog got to come from Europe?
I mean especially in relation with your goal.

Do you want a dog with FCI papers?

regards,
Dick


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## mike suttle

If you want an FCI dog, I have no idea where to refer you to go, especially if solid nerves is your priority. But if you want a VERY stable solid nerved Dutchie and it must come from Europe, I would go to Van Leeuwan kennels.


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## andreas broqvist

The dogs from Havrevingen, Vixas, czylvik is FCI dogs. BUT the are "new" registerd dogs. They are from PH1 and PH2 dogs. Som of them only have one ore 2 gen FCI ped. But they are still FCI dogs now  So you can do every FCI sport with them but they are not show dogs.

Downt know mutsh about DS pedegrees but ther are dogs from: 
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]UV - VZH - IPO III - FH I - WhP Mondioring III - Belgian Ring IV - TAT [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Ringo Van De Vastenow [/FONT][/FONT]
Basta-Buzzy van de Pionershof x Reza van de Lobo Hoeve
PH2 Arras van de Treekzicht x Bella van de Pionerhof
IPO III Holland Excellent van le Dobry x Police dog Ninja
IPO III Mach x Fenny
IPO III, FH I Rha van de Vastenow x IPO III, FH II Havrevingens Jox

Al thos dogs have FCI pedegrees.

Mike you might know if this is good ore bad  I do not


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## Mike Howard

mike suttle said:


> If you want an FCI dog, I have no idea where to refer you to go, especially if solid nerves is your priority. But if you want a VERY stable solid nerved Dutchie and it must come from Europe, I would go to Van Leeuwan kennels.


KNPV is fine. I wouldn't mind a slightly larger dutchie. 

Also, I should be clear that a working dog is what I want--I just don't want one that is 'off-the-hinges'. I know that is desirable in a sport dog but that will not be the purpose of my dog. 

As far as purchasing in Europe? I will be living there by the time I am ready to purchase. It doesn't really matter what part the dog comes from. 

Is Van Leeuwen's kennel regarded as one of the best in Europe? I just notice it is recommended a lot here--typically, how much for a male puppy?


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## andreas broqvist

Wher in europe will you be living? 
If you want to buy a dog in USA from somone you might know her/ore know of It might not be so har to import it with you.

If you will be living in the nort. Sweden/norway you nead around 7 month from the dog is baugt to bring it in to thos cuntrys.
If you will be living in Germany ore denmark ist only a mont and then you can bring the dog. 

I down know about som of the other cuntrys but is is easy to look up if you want to.

If you are going to live in any of the cuntrys I just spok about "exept Germany" and want to maby do sport later on, you neer know it might be best to get a FCI dog anyways.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Mike Howard said:


> Is Van Leeuwen's kennel regarded as one of the best in Europe? I just notice it is recommended a lot here--typically, how much for a male puppy?


of course we;re the best :mrgreen: :-\"


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## Wawashkashi Tashi

Mike Howard said:


> Hello folks,
> So this is my situation. Within the next 1-2 years, I want to purchase a Dutch Shepherd. I want a good solid dog, with good nerves, but nothing crazy.
> I will not be using this dog for sport. He will be a house/companion dog and I will be working him in obedience and PP (and maybe some tracking).
> I am a very active individual, and will be taking this dog hiking, camping, jogging, to the park, etc.
> Again, I will be doing obedience and personal protection work with this dog, but no sport--so prey drive is not _as_ important. Besides, I want a dog that I can live with.
> I will be purchasing this dog in Europe. Does anybody know of any decent breeders that would have dogs that fit my criteria? I know it can be variable, but any ideas?


Our DS is *Extremely* good in the house.. I was shocked at how good he is! -I was expecting something we'd have to crate when he wasn't right under our thumb or being worked. Since he was 1.5yo +/-, we've been able to leave him loose in the house when we leave. He just naps & chews on _appropriate_ things. He has plenty of drive for work, a titch of civility but is extremely friendly with other dogs & "all kinds" of people. He's a nice jogging partner, & just plain "good ol' pal". He has good nerves & we can take him anywhere. He isn't the hardest, meanest, or biggest DS (we call him Scrat b/c of his resemblance to the Ice Age Squirrel ), but he fits what Bill was looking for perfectly.
Unfortunately, I don't think Commanddogs is still breeding, which is from where he came.. his sire is Titan des Crocs de l'Olympe & dam is Chita vom Kelterhoff. I'm sure you could find folks that have worked relatives of his pretty easily & get their opinions on the dogs..?
Awhile back, a lady in the MidWest posted about having a litter down out of one of Scrat's brothers. She described the same kind of temperament in her male, so you could look for something closely related.
Also, I believe Jay Lyda's bitch is very much like Scrat.. I _think_ there's plans in the works to "make more" of them, a few years from now..? That's all on Jay, though.. you'd have to talk to him! :-\"


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## Christopher Jones

If your looking for strong nerves then its best to avoid the FCI dogs, even though alot have false pedigrees. It loos like one such FCI Dutchie breeder in Holland may have been caught out by the FCI for putting false pedigrees on dogs, but we will wait to see how this ends up.
But the other thing is that alot of the unregistered Dutchies while having better nerves will also have alot more stronger characters and more dominance.


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## mike suttle

andreas broqvist said:


> The dogs from Havrevingen, Vixas, czylvik is FCI dogs. BUT the are "new" registerd dogs. They are from PH1 and PH2 dogs. Som of them only have one ore 2 gen FCI ped. But they are still FCI dogs now  So you can do every FCI sport with them but they are not show dogs.
> 
> Downt know mutsh about DS pedegrees but ther are dogs from:
> [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]UV - VZH - IPO III - FH I - WhP Mondioring III - Belgian Ring IV - TAT [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Ringo Van De Vastenow [/FONT][/FONT]
> Basta-Buzzy van de Pionershof x Reza van de Lobo Hoeve
> PH2 Arras van de Treekzicht x Bella van de Pionerhof
> IPO III Holland Excellent van le Dobry x Police dog Ninja
> IPO III Mach x Fenny
> IPO III, FH I Rha van de Vastenow x IPO III, FH II Havrevingens Jox
> 
> Al thos dogs have FCI pedegrees.
> 
> Mike you might know if this is good ore bad  I do not


I know Basta-Bazzy very well, I have worked him several times, from 6 weeks of age to last fall when he was about 18-20 months or so. If I were going to use an ":wink: FCI" dog, it would be him for sure!! 
But do it quickly before they do much DNA testing. LOL


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## Christopher Jones

mike suttle said:


> I know Basta-Bazzy very well, I have worked him several times, from 6 weeks of age to last fall when he was about 18-20 months or so. If I were going to use an ":wink: FCI" dog, it would be him for sure!!
> But do it quickly before they do much DNA testing. LOL


Yeah, Bazzy is quite the FCI dog. Kinda reminds me of some of Arkos offspring.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

mike suttle said:


> I know Basta-Bazzy very well, I have worked him several times, from 6 weeks of age to last fall when he was about 18-20 months or so. If I were going to use an ":wink: FCI" dog, it would be him for sure!!
> *But do it quickly before they do much DNA testing*. LOL


 correct O and that counts for certain for several others on the list of andreas :-\"


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## David Ruby

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> correct O and that counts for certain for several others on the list of andreas :-\"


A bit of an aside, but . . . If these dogs are kicking ass and taking names, why not let their ability decide if they belong in a registry? A bit of a rhetorical question, but that seems rather strange to me.

-Cheers


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## Matt Grosch

I did all this research recently and decided IF you can find a kennel you trust in the U.S. it is a much better option. There are enough stories of people being unsuccessful in having problems with dogs the purchased rectified here, in Europe, you would be even more unlikely to have an issue corrected.


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## Matt Grosch

Also, I had decided to get a dutch shepherd, then switched to searching for a GSD (specifically czech), then came back to wanting a dutchie, then realized I knew what I wanted in a dog and was open to a GSD, mal, or dutchie that matched up (but I did hope it was a dutchie)


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Matt Grosch said:


> I did all this research recently and decided IF you can find a kennel you trust in the U.S. it is a much better option. There are enough stories of people being unsuccessful in having problems with dogs the purchased rectified here, in Europe, you would be even more unlikely to have an issue corrected.


 TS is living in Europe at the time a puppy can be welcomed, that´s why he want to purchase in Europe ;-)


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## mike suttle

David Ruby said:


> A bit of an aside, but . . . If these dogs are kicking ass and taking names, why not let their ability decide if they belong in a registry? A bit of a rhetorical question, but that seems rather strange to me.
> 
> -Cheers


IF only it were that simple. Most of the really great FCI dogs have father's that are not on the FCI pedigree. I wont give names, but trust me......there are many!
WHat are some of the best Dutchies that we know about today??? Rudie, Spike, Carlos, Tiesto, Wibo, Arko, Ringo, Bokito,Duke,Mr Bunker,..........pick one of the many very nice strong Dutchies.....none of them have FCI pedigrees.


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## Matt Grosch

Similar to an AKC registered AmStaff vs. a pitbull in ability?


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## Gerry Grimwood

mike suttle said:


> IF only it were that simple. Most of the really great FCI dogs have father's that are not on the FCI pedigree. I wont give names, but trust me......there are many!
> WHat are some of the best Dutchies that we know about today??? Rudie, Spike, Carlos, Tiesto, Wibo, Arko, Ringo, Bokito,Duke,Mr Bunker,..........pick one of the many very nice strong Dutchies.....none of them have FCI pedigrees.


What about BRN 3454 ?


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## mike suttle

Gerry Grimwood said:


> What about BRN 3454 ?


Also does not have an FCI pedigree, but obviously I like those lines!


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## Mike Howard

Thanks for the advice so far. 

How much should I expect to pay for a male puppy from a breeder in Belgium or the Netherlands? Ballpark figure.


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## kristin tresidder

Matt Grosch said:


> Similar to an AKC registered AmStaff vs. a pitbull in ability?


probably a pretty good analogy. although, i have to say, my FCI registered PH1 dutch shepherd is a pretty solid dog - nothing nervy or schitzy about her.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

do you have her (registred) bloodline? 'cause on her photo's she doesn't look like a "normal" fci line, I thought she also was from KNPV lines?


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Mike Howard said:


> How much should I expect to pay for a male puppy from a breeder in Belgium or the Netherlands? Ballpark figure.


Dutch prices:
unregistred lines: 200-350 euro, where the 200 euro range usually hasn't have their first shot yet when leaving the litter. We also chip our puppies before leaving and that is very uncommon.
We have the same price for foreigners as for dutchmen , but I know some breeders will charge more if you're a foreigner.
You can buy a very good lined puppy in the 200-250 euro range, but also byb.

FCI lines: about 500 euro (advice price from the kennel club, most breeders follow that advice)

at current rate is 200 euro about $300 and 500 euro is about $ 745


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## Mike Howard

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Dutch prices:
> unregistred lines: 200-350 euro, where the 200 euro range usually hasn't have their first shot yet when leaving the litter. We also chip our puppies before leaving and that is very uncommon.
> We have the same price for foreigners as for dutchmen , but I know some breeders will charge more if you're a foreigner.
> You can buy a very good lined puppy in the 200-250 euro range, but also byb.
> 
> FCI lines: about 500 euro (advice price from the kennel club, most breeders follow that advice)
> 
> at current rate is 200 euro about $300 and 500 euro is about $ 745


Thank you.


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## kristin tresidder

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> do you have her (registred) bloodline? 'cause on her photo's she doesn't look like a "normal" fci line, I thought she also was from KNPV lines?


i can't go to the bloedlijnen.nl site on my home computer - it doesn't work for macs for some reason! - so i can't link you to her page/number there, but you can see her ped here:
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dogs/dutch_shepherd/pedigree/814151.html
and also find her on bloedlijnen...

of course, any insight into her ped is always appreciated :grin:


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## jan reuvekamp

kristin tresidder said:


> i can't go to the bloedlijnen.nl site on my home computer - it doesn't work for macs for some reason! - so i can't link you to her page/number there, but you can see her ped here:
> http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dogs/dutch_shepherd/pedigree/814151.html
> and also find her on bloedlijnen...
> 
> of course, any insight into her ped is always appreciated :grin:


I know this dog and the breeder. I have seen her working at our KNPV club. When the dog was working there was more fight/fly than prey drive. Much redirect agression, so the dog don't stay long and moved on. The next trainer did get with her PHI and she had a litter. After that she moved to the States.


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## andreas broqvist

I saw that havrevingen have a breeding now with 
Father : *Arko Van De Wolfsklauw* "Basta-Bazzy van de PioniershofX Reza van de Lobohoeve" 
And *HavreVingens Quala* "Titan d crocs d olympe X Havrevingens Isthar 

Downt know if its good dogs ore not but somone ells might 

http://www.havrevingen.se/valpar.html


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## Christopher Jones

andreas broqvist said:


> I saw that havrevingen have a breeding now with
> Father : *Arko Van De Wolfsklauw* "Basta-Bazzy van de PioniershofX Reza van de Lobohoeve"
> And *HavreVingens Quala* "Titan d crocs d olympe X Havrevingens Isthar
> 
> Downt know if its good dogs ore not but somone ells might
> 
> http://www.havrevingen.se/valpar.html


Damm, theres that much unregistered x Dutchies in those bloodlines it aint funny. Its almost laughable they can carry so much mix blood yet still get a pedigree. lol


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## andreas broqvist

I downt know how they do it but they reregister the dogs. No paper hangin ore anyting, They just reregister them as FCI dog. 
One kennel has a dog after Tommy Luyken that now is a first gen FCI dog.

This kennel also has a liter after Zjerommeke that as far as I can se also was a KNPV dog right?


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## jan reuvekamp

andreas broqvist said:


> I downt know how they do it but they reregister the dogs. No paper hangin ore anyting, They just reregister them as FCI dog.
> One kennel has a dog after Tommy Luyken that now is a first gen FCI dog.
> 
> This kennel also has a liter after Zjerommeke that as far as I can se also was a KNPV dog right?


In Belgium it s possible to go with you to a dog show and show your dog to a judge. If it looks like a DS you can get a registration. After 3 generations you have a FCI regsiter dog


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## andreas broqvist

Yes I think its somthing like that they are doing to. But I think they can do it faster than 3 gen


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## jan reuvekamp

andreas broqvist said:


> Yes I think its somthing like that they are doing to. But I think they can do it faster than 3 gen


Ik think its works tis way you get your registration in belgium and then to Sweden and the dog is FCI registerd. And there are other ways


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## Christopher Jones

Or they just put fake pedigrees on them lol. I had a conversation with a guy here who was saying that all unregistered KNPV Dutchies are nothing but "Mongrels" and that I was a conman to call my dogs Dutchies or Dutch Shepherds because they had no pedigrees. I then asked if I took the same dog to Belgium and got a FCI pedigree for him would he then be called a Dutch Shepherd and he said yes. 
Thats some wierd kinda logic. I am so over offical pedigrees and kennel clubs, I would much rather play with my unregistered dogs where I know the real dogs in the pedigrees. There is a FCI Dutchie who did well at the KNPV a couple of years back. His real father is Tommy, yet his pedigree shows some unknown, done nothing dogs as his father. Wouldnt that be so frustrating, knowing your dog went back to dogs like Tommy, Rocky and Duco yet not been able to tell people.


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## andreas broqvist

Ok thank you. I just know that al the working DS breeders in sweden have FCI dogs from KNPV lines. 
I downt think they use anything ellse, Just KNPV lines. 

Its the same with the mali breeders, al the dogs are FCI dogs but they are not show dogs at al. Working dogs from IPO, French, Belguim and mondioring, Körung. But I do not se many dogs from KNPV lines. Some PH1. Maby its just the pappers that downt show it


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## andreas broqvist

Yes but now you se dogs first Gen FCI that is from Tommy. So they can get them in, Without realy hanging the pappers.
The problem is for us over her in Europe that we cant compet with ouer dogs if they do not have FCI pappers.


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## Christopher Jones

andreas broqvist said:


> Ok thank you. I just know that al the working DS breeders in sweden have FCI dogs from KNPV lines.
> I downt think they use anything ellse, Just KNPV lines.
> 
> Its the same with the mali breeders, al the dogs are FCI dogs but they are not show dogs at al. Working dogs from IPO, French, Belguim and mondioring, Körung. But I do not se many dogs from KNPV lines. Some PH1. Maby its just the pappers that downt show it


The issue is that they are putting the KNPV blood into their real FCI Dutchies. Most likely they do not want to pop out many Malis from their litters. Real FCI Dutchies carry only brindle, where as most KNPV dogs carry Mali, which can pop out a number of generations later. So they may have dogs with total of 50% KNPV blood, 50% FCI. This is still way too much FCI blood for me. Good breeders breed for type and consistancy. Out crossing FCI to KNPV is such a dramatic outcross they wont get any consistancy what so ever. Its hard to keep type and character when linebreeding on KNPV dogs let alone outcrossing to a far weaker and substandard working genepool as the FCI Dutchies.


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## andreas broqvist

The kennels I have mention do not work that way. Its only KNPV dogs. as I gett it they al started of with KNPV dogs and have them FCI registrated. 

Not breed KNPV dog into old FCI dog. Maby Im wrong, I downt have mutsh knowledge about ds.
Maby you can look around on tha pages and se if its corect. 

Hund/hundar = Dog
Valpar = Puppies
Stamtavla = Pedegree


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## Christopher Jones

andreas broqvist said:


> The kennels I have mention do not work that way. Its only KNPV dogs. as I gett it they al started of with KNPV dogs and have them FCI registrated.
> 
> Not breed KNPV dog into old FCI dog. Maby Im wrong, I downt have mutsh knowledge about ds.
> Maby you can look around on tha pages and se if its corect.
> 
> Hund/hundar = Dog
> Valpar = Puppies
> Stamtavla = Pedegree


Nah your wrong there. Havrevingens started off with the Vastenow FCI pedigreed bloodlines. Now what they are doing is breeding to dogs like Avanstien, Bazzy, Arras, all dogs with FCI pedigrees in Holland who are KNPV titled yet come from false pedigrees. So their base is old FCI lines with mix Dutchies brought in from these dogs. I remember Dick saying how Lars from Sweden bought a brother of Spike to Sweden called Robbie. Now Robbie had no FCI pedigree, real or fake. But ask yourself what a breeder of FCI Dutchies in Sweden would be doing buying a unregistered KNPV Dutchie for? 
So the reality is that the dogs in Sweden are a mix of both. Ask the breeder and I am sure his offical answer would be that they are pure FCI dogs.


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## andreas broqvist

Ok I stand corected 

KNPV dog mixt with some fci blood. I wuld like to go over to holand and se som of the "pure" KNPV.

I realy like the look of Mikes Carlos dog. If I wuld buy a DS just from looks and from a description from the breeder that the kind of dog for me.


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## andreas broqvist

Whats do you guys "Mike, Christopher" feel is the biggest difrense between the Pure KNPV lines and dogs like the ones I posted pedegres on. KNPV / FCI mixes. They are more hevey in KNPV dogs then FCI dogs right? 

Thanks.


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## mike suttle

andreas broqvist said:


> Ok I stand corected
> 
> KNPV dog mixt with some fci blood. I wuld like to go over to holand and se som of the "pure" KNPV.
> 
> I realy like the look of Mikes Carlos dog. If I wuld buy a DS just from looks and from a description from the breeder that the kind of dog for me.


 Chris has some semen from Carlos in Australia, and Van Leeuwen kennels in Holland has Wibo (a full litermate brother to Carlos) If you like Carlos and you live in Europe, go check out Wibo, you will like him as well.


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## andreas broqvist

Thanks. I will do that when i go to holland. Downt know when yett but in some time


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Christopher Jones said:


> Nah your wrong there. Havrevingens started off with the Vastenow FCI pedigreed bloodlines. Now what they are doing is breeding to dogs like Avanstien, Bazzy, Arras, all dogs with FCI pedigrees in Holland who are KNPV titled yet come from false pedigrees. So their base is old FCI lines with mix Dutchies brought in from these dogs. I remember Dick saying how Lars from Sweden bought a brother of Spike to Sweden called Robbie. Now Robbie had no FCI pedigree, real or fake. But ask yourself what a breeder of FCI Dutchies in Sweden would be doing buying a unregistered KNPV Dutchie for?
> So the reality is that the dogs in Sweden are a mix of both. Ask the breeder and I am sure his offical answer would be that they are pure FCI dogs.


Your right, Chris. Most of the dogs used and mentioned here before have the blood of my old Rocky in the bloodline,Tommy, Spike, Robbie, Wibo, Carlos, Bokito.. Including a lot of (working) FCI DS.
They used him for his stabile, curagious charachter and full pushing grip/bite.

Some breeders got very nerveus when I agreed to let them take DNA from my direct Rocky-ofspring like Spike or Benta....:mrgreen:
(which has not been done yet, by the way...;-)) 

Dick


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## kristin tresidder

jan reuvekamp said:


> I know this dog and the breeder. I have seen her working at our KNPV club. When the dog was working there was more fight/fly than prey drive. Much redirect agression, so the dog don't stay long and moved on. The next trainer did get with her PHI and she had a litter. After that she moved to the States.



thanks for the first hand info.  i hope you don't mind, i sent you a PM, as i'm always looking to know more, without trying to take over a thread.


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## Erik Berg

Christopher Jones said:


> Nah your wrong there. Havrevingens started off with the Vastenow FCI pedigreed bloodlines. Now what they are doing is breeding to dogs like Avanstien, Bazzy, Arras, all dogs with FCI pedigrees in Holland who are KNPV titled yet come from false pedigrees. So their base is old FCI lines with mix Dutchies brought in from these dogs. I remember Dick saying how Lars from Sweden bought a brother of Spike to Sweden called Robbie. Now Robbie had no FCI pedigree, real or fake. But ask yourself what a breeder of FCI Dutchies in Sweden would be doing buying a unregistered KNPV Dutchie for?
> So the reality is that the dogs in Sweden are a mix of both. Ask the breeder and I am sure his offical answer would be that they are pure FCI dogs.


But are you sure these old FCI-lines were showdogs(or even correct pedigrees),are there no decent workers from the old FCI-lines like the dogs vastenow started out with ? Also when you say many of todays FCI-dutchies woking in KNPV have fake pedigrees, do you mean the dogs some generations back or there aren´t a single dog in the pedigree that is correct? I know some are false or not all dogs in a pedigree are correct but on the other hand, what should you do if you want to produce working DS with the necessary FCI-pedigree? Must be frustrating to watch a breed dies when there are several good dutchies from unregistred KNPV-lines around you. 

I´ve heard it was a problem with consistency in the FCI-DS in sweden from the start but it seems this have becomming better as timed has passed, havrevingens A litter was of excellent quality I´ve heard, regardless of breed you compare them too, the pedigree was this,
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/226543/Havrevingens-Ambra

It seems nowadays when some kennels have KNPV-lines that they legally register with FCI the future looks even brighter for the FCI-dutchie,or? As was mentioned earlier, if you go to a show two times and the dogs are "pretty" enough you can register an unregistred KNPV-dog with FCI as I understand it. The tommy son that had a litter in sweden a while ago was such a dog, correct KNPV-lines( I suppose) registred with FCI, not a full pedigree here but the father is from KNPV-lines, this male was put down a while ago thou due to aggressionproblem,
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/119233/Vixax-Jaeger


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## Christopher Jones

Erik Berg said:


> But are you sure these old FCI-lines were showdogs(or even correct pedigrees),are there no decent workers from the old FCI-lines like the dogs vastenow started out with ? Also when you say many of todays FCI-dutchies woking in KNPV have fake pedigrees, do you mean the dogs some generations back or there aren´t a single dog in the pedigree that is correct? I know some are false or not all dogs in a pedigree are correct but on the other hand, what should you do if you want to produce working DS with the necessary FCI-pedigree? Must be frustrating to watch a breed dies when there are several good dutchies from unregistred KNPV-lines around you.
> 
> I´ve heard it was a problem with consistency in the FCI-DS in sweden from the start but it seems this have becomming better as timed has passed, havrevingens A litter was of excellent quality I´ve heard, regardless of breed you compare them too, the pedigree was this,
> http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/226543/Havrevingens-Ambra
> 
> It seems nowadays when some kennels have KNPV-lines that they legally register with FCI the future looks even brighter for the FCI-dutchie,or? As was mentioned earlier, if you go to a show two times and the dogs are "pretty" enough you can register an unregistred KNPV-dog with FCI as I understand it. The tommy son that had a litter in sweden a while ago was such a dog, correct KNPV-lines( I suppose) registred with FCI, not a full pedigree here but the father is from KNPV-lines, this male was put down a while ago thou due to aggressionproblem,
> http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/119233/Vixax-Jaeger


I dont have a problem with FCI breeders using KNPV dogs to improve their breed, just like I dont mind FCI Mali breeders crossing out to the NVBK or KNPV dogs. I have a problem with people who have FCI dogs calling the unregistered KNPV dogs "mongrels" and yet not knowing they have these same mongels in their own dogs. 
There are even FCI Dutchies who are grandkids of Remco Linders. Remco was a black mali, and his grandfather was a pedigreed GSD. I wont use Remco blood in my breeding program as I dont want close GSD in them. Basically some FCI Dutchies have GSD closer than the unreg ones do, yet FCI people talk about "pure" pedigreed dogs.

I think there are other people on this list like Dick and Gerben who can answer what the Vastenow dogs were like I have yet to hear anyone recommend them for high working applications such as KNPV or Police work. IPO they seem okay.


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## mike suttle

Christopher Jones said:


> I dont have a problem with FCI breeders using KNPV dogs to improve their breed, just like I dont mind FCI Mali breeders crossing out to the NVBK or KNPV dogs. I have a problem with people who have FCI dogs calling the unregistered KNPV dogs "mongrels" and yet not knowing they have these same mongels in their own dogs.
> There are even FCI Dutchies who are grandkids of Remco Linders. Remco was a black mali, and his grandfather was a pedigreed GSD. I wont use Remco blood in my breeding program as I dont want close GSD in them. Basically some FCI Dutchies have GSD closer than the unreg ones do, yet FCI people talk about "pure" pedigreed dogs.
> 
> I think there are other people on this list like Dick and Gerben who can answer what the Vastenow dogs were like I have yet to hear anyone recommend them for high working applications such as KNPV or Police work. IPO they seem okay.


Hey Chris, dont rule out Remco in your lines, the GSD is pretty diluted. He is a very producer. Irtho also has GSD in his lines and is also a great producer. I have a direct Remco daughter here that is one of the nicest females I have ever had. I also have several offspring here from Irtho and I have to say I like them as well.
All of the GSD traits are removed by the time you will see any offspring from them. Except for the occasional markings of a GSD. On my website now there is a dog named "Bico", he is a son from Irtho and a malinois bitch, but he is marked like a bi color GSD. But let me promise you that he acts nothing like a GSD that is for sure.


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## Erik Berg

If this is remcos pedigree, is it also false then, or where is the GSD in his grandfather, or I´m a missing something?
http://www.bloedlijnen.nl/stamboom.php?ID=1220#


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## mike suttle

Erik Berg said:


> If this is remcos pedigree, is it also false then, or where is the GSD in his grandfather, or I´m a missing something?
> http://www.bloedlijnen.nl/stamboom.php?ID=1220#


Look again Erik.
There is GSD on his father's side. The mother to his father is a X GSD.


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## Erik Berg

OK, I see it now, couldn´t follow those GSDs pedigree thou due too they are listed as "unknown".


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## Christopher Jones

mike suttle said:


> Hey Chris, dont rule out Remco in your lines, the GSD is pretty diluted. He is a very producer. Irtho also has GSD in his lines and is also a great producer. I have a direct Remco daughter here that is one of the nicest females I have ever had. I also have several offspring here from Irtho and I have to say I like them as well.
> All of the GSD traits are removed by the time you will see any offspring from them. Except for the occasional markings of a GSD. On my website now there is a dog named "Bico", he is a son from Irtho and a malinois bitch, but he is marked like a bi color GSD. But let me promise you that he acts nothing like a GSD that is for sure.


Yeah they say Remco hit like freight train and would more often than not take the decoy down, but im really trying to limit the amount of known GSD in my dogs. Irtho is also very well thought of as well, but.......GSD.......


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## mike suttle

Christopher Jones said:


> Yeah they say Remco hit like freight train and would more often than not take the decoy down, but im really trying to limit the amount of known GSD in my dogs. Irtho is also very well thought of as well, but.......GSD.......


Just try to be openminded and look at the dog in front of you, look at what he has proven to produce, and trust the KNPV guys who bred what they did to produce him. Also look at all of the other great dogs in the pedigree, not just focus on the tiny bit of GSD in the lines. The GSD can add a little size and a little harder grip, and also a little bit more of a thinker. I will tell you that when it comes to common sense (for a dog) my Remco daughter and my Irtho daughter are both very trainable compared to my Arko offspring and also the sons from Carlos that I have worked with. I know you like wreckless dogs that go like idiots without any regard for their own personal safety, I like that as well. But it is also nice to have one who will stop when the toy bounces over a bridge, and not just plumit to his death. I have both types here.....I worry less with the smarter ones.:razz:


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## Jeff Oehlsen

This guy is going to EU, wants a pet, and you send him to the MAN who bred this dog ??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZloqxTLypJA

Good God, he is a fad follower. Send him off to the pound, there are tons of FCI dogs there I am sure.


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## Howard Knauf

I never get tired of watching that video.


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## andreas broqvist

Christopher
Why are you trying to use as litle GSD as posible? I feel the best Malis I met have prety mutsh GSDs in them, and prety close.

I know somtime you just get a hangup against sertan stuff in the ped, I have sertan dogs that I wuld never have in my dogs. Its not realy a proven fact that the trows aloot of craap but I feel that way about thos dogs.

But do you have a plan/reson why you do not want it in your peds? Just interesting to know. Even If its as easy as you just want to have as pure DS as posible


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## Christopher Jones

andreas broqvist said:


> Christopher
> Why are you trying to use as litle GSD as posible? I feel the best Malis I met have prety mutsh GSDs in them, and prety close.
> 
> I know somtime you just get a hangup against sertan stuff in the ped, I have sertan dogs that I wuld never have in my dogs. Its not realy a proven fact that the trows aloot of craap but I feel that way about thos dogs.
> 
> But do you have a plan/reson why you do not want it in your peds? Just interesting to know. Even If its as easy as you just want to have as pure DS as posible


I have owned and bred a number of GSD's and there are reasons why I prefer something different. Some people prefer the GSD for reasons such as grip, trainability, size, colours, easier to keep etc. There are downsides in the GSD that I want to avoid, and these are very important to me. The reality is that the hips and elbows on GSD's are an issue. So for this reason as little GSD up close for me the better. I also dont like late maturing dogs, and the reality is again that Malis and Dutchies develop their drives stronger at a younger age than GSD's tend to do. Also I like a dog that is ruled by his drives, not a dog that thinks to much. 
I went to the DS because I like these extreme dogs with high domiance and extreme characters. I also believe that its sometime easier to loose good traits so I just want to try and keep it as close to DS and Mali as I can.
Like I said dogs like Remco and Ithro are exceptional dogs, most likely better than my own, but there are lots of good dogs in Holland so I choose, for the reasons above, to avoid dogs like Remco and Ithro. Maybe I will be the looser and Mike who has a more open mind will benefit from it. Im not putting these two dogs down in any form, people with high standards who I look up to rate them highly.


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## andreas broqvist

Thanks for a good awser, It sounds like you have a good ide of why you do not use GSDmixes.

Keeping the pedegree clean from other type of dogs can have a good purpus in the end, If you do not get the same type of dogs as the "battelcrosses" your line will probobly produce cleaner in the end and therfor a good thing for the breed. Breeders can use you line later on to strengthen the DS traits, And make even better dog. Sound slike a good plan

Good luck.


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## David Ruby

Christopher Jones said:


> Also I like a dog that is ruled by his drives, not a dog that thinks to much.
> I went to the DS because I like these extreme dogs with high domiance and extreme characters.


Hey Christopher, just curious, why do you like a dog ruled by his drive more so than the thinker type? Just wondering what you feel it adds over a thinker (or an overthinker?); I realize its just personal preference so I'm not criticizing or anything, just interested in your rationale.

-Cheers


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## Guest

David Ruby said:


> Hey Christopher, just curious, why do you like a dog ruled by his drive more so than the thinker type? Just wondering what you feel it adds over a thinker (or an overthinker?); I realize its just personal preference so I'm not criticizing or anything, just interested in your rationale.
> 
> -Cheers


 
I personally like this as well. Harder to train at times, but preferred. I don't need a dog that thinks too much, just do what he is taught! Different applications for different types, however, some think too much and slow progress or go off track, I don't want one to think as so much JUST DO IT! 

I believe each application will vary, however, if a dog is damn driven to jump outside a 2nd floor window after a guy who jumped out........OH WELL!


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## Christopher Jones

David Ruby said:


> Hey Christopher, just curious, why do you like a dog ruled by his drive more so than the thinker type? Just wondering what you feel it adds over a thinker (or an overthinker?); I realize its just personal preference so I'm not criticizing or anything, just interested in your rationale.
> 
> -Cheers


I just find that it makes them more predictable and more robust.


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## Mike Howard

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> This guy is going to EU, wants a pet, and you send him to the MAN who bred this dog ??
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZloqxTLypJA
> 
> Good God, he is a fad follower. Send him off to the pound, there are tons of FCI dogs there I am sure.


Not a fad follower--do plan on working the dog, just not in sport. 

Obedience, PP, tracking--yes. 

You seem to know more about me than me, good for you. =D>


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Another little sensitive squirrel. Put me on your ignore list. That will solve that issue for you. It is a good feature, you will just not see anything I have written.


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## Mike Howard

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Another little sensitive squirrel. Put me on your ignore list. That will solve that issue for you. It is a good feature, you will just not see anything I have written.


Clever, but not interested. Sensitive? Not the least. Just a little surprised that an adult conducts himself in this way, even if it is an internet forum--and although I don't understand the whole internet persona thing, I will pretend that I do and claim no hard feelings


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Of course you are suprised, now just remember to put me on your ignore list since you are so offended.

Don't forget, put me on your ignore list, and I am gone, just like that.


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## kristin tresidder

why don't they make those for real people in the real world yet?


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## mike suttle

kristin tresidder said:


> why don't they make those for real people in the real world yet?


No kidding, Jeff could be the poster child for the advertisment campain to market that cool new device!:razz:


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I bet he doesn't do it.


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## Mike Howard

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I bet he doesn't do it.



Don't flatter yourself--you don't bother me so why would I put you on ignore? 

Nonetheless, I will let you have the last word =D>


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## Jeff Oehlsen

See I told you he wouldn't do it. I wish I had the ability to make it so people couldn't learn from my posts. I should be able to block my shit from these people.


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## Mike Howard

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> See I told you he wouldn't do it. I wish I had the ability to make it so people couldn't learn from my posts. I should be able to block my shit from these people.


All I'm learning is that you're a meat head with very little to contribute to this post. :smile:

Get over yourself, nobody is learning anything from you--especially not me. :roll:


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Just put me on ignore then. Ask someone how if you don't know. It is real easy, but I bet you don't do it.


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## Mike Howard

To everybody else who has contributed to this thread, thank you. I have been in contact with a few breeders. I am considering getting a puppy from a litter in NA, and either receiving it before I move, or have it shipped.


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## chris haynie

Mike Howard said:


> Get over yourself, nobody is learning anything from you--especially not me. :roll:


i learn stuff from his posts frequently...i'd estimate that around half of the 7000 posts made are useful. he just loves to bait reactive people and **** with them. sometimes i do too. cant say i blame him when some folks just freak out over some internet forum ball busting. just dont take the bullshit personal then maybe you wont cry when you get called a ****tard or prancing schutzhund fairy :-({|=


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I just wish he would put me on ignore. I need to ask if I can have that for myself so I can make it so he cannot see what I write.


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## chris haynie

but then i wouldn't be able to laugh at people flipping out over your ball busting


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## Jeff Oehlsen

He has like one post and gets all bad ass about being fad boy.


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## Mike Howard

chris haynie said:


> i learn stuff from his posts frequently...i'd estimate that around half of the 7000 posts made are useful. he just loves to bait reactive people and **** with them. sometimes i do too. cant say i blame him when some folks just freak out over some internet forum ball busting. just dont take the bullshit personal then maybe you wont cry when you get called a ****tard or prancing schutzhund fairy :-({|=


Who's taking it personal? Easy machismo.


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## Ben Haley

Hi 

Another breeder you could try if the dog has to come from europe is Marcel Dobbelaar. I have now imported 4 dogs to Australia from him and he has been nothing but helpful and supportive. I have found him to be very honest and all the dogs he has sent me have been of the highest quality and what he has claimed the dogs to have been they have been that and more.

He has some of the best old dutch lines available, he breeds both Dutch Shepherds and Malinois of the unregistered KNPV kind. He uses his dogs not only for KNPV but security/street work also. You can find his details on www.bloedlijnen.nl and do a search for Dobbelaar or check out his website http://www.werkhondenkenneldezonhoek.com/index.htm

Or PM me and I can give you his details.

Regards Ben


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