# A'Tim DMC Korung(1st attempt)



## Troy Seaton

Some interesting footage.TS

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HqlqLA6uHo


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## Max Orsi

What exactely is it that you find interesting?

Just curious

Max


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## Mike Scheiber

Max Orsi said:


> What exactely is it that you find interesting?
> 
> Just curious
> 
> Max


Don't know what Troy found interesting but I find it interesting that you can flunk a korung and if you don't like the out come you can try again would that be recorded in the dogs book.


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## Max Orsi

Well a korung is just a test and as a test is supposed to be some what standard for all dogs, so all the performances can be measured with the same ruler.

I watch litterally hundreds of DMC korung and have never seen enything even close to this one, have you?

Max


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## Christopher Smith

> Don't know what Troy found interesting but I find it interesting that you can flunk a korung and if you don't like the out come you can try again would that be recorded in the dogs book.


Maybe you should ask questions instead of making statements.:roll:


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## Max Orsi

I asked a question.

Did you ever see a korung where the dog was worked in a similar fashion? I am not talking about the suit.

If you have I would like to see the footage.

Thanks

Max


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## Max Orsi

Sorry Christopher, when i read your post the quote, for some reason, was not there.

Max


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## Troy Seaton

What I found interesting was the amount of pressure that was applied compared to the other Korung's I've viewed in the past....I'm not complaining but can't recall viewing any other dogs flanked like that..TS


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## Christopher Smith

Max Orsi said:


> I asked a question.
> 
> Did you ever see a korung where the dog was worked in a similar fashion? I am not talking about the suit.



Yes. Remember this is a Korung 3. There are only a handful of dogs that have a 3.

I watch this whole korung (all dogs), on video, while hanging out with both the helpers and this was just about par for the course.This first few korungs were a little...."much". But the reason the dog failed and was allowed to do the test over is interesting, IMO. The helpers told me that they felt that the test was unfair. One thing that they felt made it unfair was that they were exploiting the dogs training not the dog's weaknesses. Notice that Edgar starts pulling the dogs tail. He told me that he noticed that the dog had problems with that and he exploited it. Later while watching the dog during training he saw that the dog was corrected by the tail and that the bites were always the same duration and the dog always left the helper at the same time. They felt that the test was set up for dogs that were trained in schutzhund it was unfair to a ring dog. So they went to the drawing board and came back with a felt would show the dog's innate qualities and not the training.


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## Christopher Smith

Max Orsi said:


> Sorry Christopher, when i read your post the quote, for some reason, was not there.
> 
> Max



No problem. I put the quote in later.


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## Troy Seaton

Hey Chris....Thanks for sharing that info.TS


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## melissa mims

The only video I have seen even remotely close to this was here, about 3:40:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8OruEOXy0g&feature=related

Doesn't even come close to the two proper flankings going on in the other vid.


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## Max Orsi

Thanks for explaining Chris.

I was aware that they were exploiting the training. Anybody familiar with the way of training a ring dog could see that himself.

That is why it makes me mad when videos like this are posted, dogs that compete at high level as Atim did, are trained to perform a specific excercise within the contest of their sport and pay by being corrected by both decoy and handler to step out of the excercise boundary.

Therefore at times decide to stop because they don't know what to do, not because they are stressed out.

If I remember correctely The owner of Atim showed up without preparing the dog to the test, which did the second time

You can tell a dog under stress when you see one, if you cannot you should not train without close supervision.

Happy training

Max


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## melissa mims

Korung 3, then that would explain the difference. Vid I posted was Korung 1. 

I have always been interested in the Mal Korung. Anyplace I can find a link to the scoring? Curious as to how they rate the dog.


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## Max Orsi

Melissa the korung has changed since the time of the video.

All the information is on the http://www.mechelaar.de/

Happy training

Max


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## melissa mims

Thank you!


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## Sam Trinh

melissa mims said:


> The only video I have seen even remotely close to this was here, about 3:40:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8OruEOXy0g&feature=related
> 
> Doesn't even come close to the two proper flankings going on in the other vid.


I think they are remotely close in part b/c they are the same attack (2:40 in the OP Video, 3:30 in the vid you posted). Just different camera angles.


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## Timothy Saunders

Max Orsi said:


> Thanks for explaining Chris.
> 
> I was aware that they were exploiting the training. Anybody familiar with the way of training a ring dog could see that himself.
> 
> That is why it makes me mad when videos like this are posted, dogs that compete at high level as Atim did, are trained to perform a specific excercise within the contest of their sport and pay by being corrected by both decoy and handler to step out of the excercise boundary.
> 
> Therefore at times decide to stop because they don't know what to do, not because they are stressed out.
> 
> If I remember correctely The owner of Atim showed up without preparing the dog to the test, which did the second time
> 
> You can tell a dog under stress when you see one, if you cannot you should not train without close supervision.
> 
> 
> you are right about the dog not being prepared, I talked to Martine and Joao and they did say that. I haven't seen as many korungs as you but that was the hardest one I have ever seen. The dog did great as far as I am concerned. he is not familiar with that kind of movement in a decoy and still went to the bite everytime . He had every opportunity to not bite
> 
> Happy training
> 
> Max


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## Christopher Jones

I spoke to Jao Lopes about this Korung. I think there are two different "incidents". First the one with the boxes, A'tim does go into avoidence but recovers, and any dog person worth their salt knows recovery is just as important as the intial reaction. 
The second part is where the dog is sent to the decoy up the hill. The Germans were, as someone mentioned before, exploiting the training of the dog. A'tim has ecollars on the waist for corrections in training and the bites in NVBK are short, maybe 5 seconds. So in the Korung they wanted over 20 second bites, and were flanking the dog. Jao's belief is that A'tim anticipated the out and saw the flankings as corections, so he outed and returned to his handler. After looking at it I tend to agree with Jao. I think it might of been a case of the Germans trying to show up the Belgian guy and his dog.

I was a bit hesitant about uploading the clip but I think it really shows how just training a dog in one way can show holes in a dog if he is exposed to new tests.


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## Max Orsi

The first attack, the one as you referr as with the boxes is an attack on the handler, in SCh IPO the dogs are trained to respond to the aggression from a distance, look at the old attack out of the blind, still present in the DMC korung and the attack out of the rear transport today.

In BR the dog is trained, under penalty of correction, not to bite untill the handler is attacked by way of a clear strong touch from the decoy, there is also one hand shake and when the decoy jumps out it tries to entice the dog to bite(fail) before the aggression.

You can see the dog is getting confused, at one point looking at the handler as if he expected a correction, then he bites but it showes conflict and confusion.

The second bite, which is the most similar to a bite the dog would perform in BR, beside the duration which in BR is 10 seconds and the fight, is his better attack.

On the attack on the hill the decoy, beside the already mentioned flanking and tail pulling which the dog see as corrections, because of the way he is trained, offer a strong "barrage" and gives the dog a hard time to get to the bite.

That tipe of behavior is used in BR to punish the dog for not going through the obstacles, giving him a hard time to get to the bite and call him back before it gets it to create frustration, therefore again the dog before it start biting is already thinking he is doing something wrong.

I am not trying to defend the dog, just doing an objective analisys of the dog performance.

Already in the past I have seen videos of this type posted of dogs failing one excercise and everybody is pretty quick to point out how $h1tty the dog is.

Dogs trained to this level are trained to perform one excercise, not just biting.

Happy training

Max


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## Christopher Jones

Max Orsi said:


> The first attack, the one as you referr as with the boxes is an attack on the handler, in SCh IPO the dogs are trained to respond to the aggression from a distance, look at the old attack out of the blind, still present in the DMC korung and the attack out of the rear transport today.
> 
> In BR the dog is trained, under penalty of correction, not to bite untill the handler is attacked by way of a clear strong touch from the decoy, there is also one hand shake and when the decoy jumps out it tries to entice the dog to bite(fail) before the aggression.
> 
> You can see the dog is getting confused, at one point looking at the handler as if he expected a correction, then he bites but it showes conflict and confusion.
> 
> The second bite, which is the most similar to a bite the dog would perform in BR, beside the duration which in BR is 10 seconds and the fight, is his better attack.
> 
> On the attack on the hill the decoy, beside the already mentioned flanking and tail pulling which the dog see as corrections, because of the way he is trained, offer a strong "barrage" and gives the dog a hard time to get to the bite.
> 
> That tipe of behavior is used in BR to punish the dog for not going through the obstacles, giving him a hard time to get to the bite and call him back before it gets it to create frustration, therefore again the dog before it start biting is already thinking he is doing something wrong.
> 
> I am not trying to defend the dog, just doing an objective analisys of the dog performance.
> 
> Already in the past I have seen videos of this type posted of dogs failing one excercise and everybody is pretty quick to point out how $h1tty the dog is.
> 
> Dogs trained to this level are trained to perform one excercise, not just biting.
> 
> Happy training
> 
> Max


That was pretty much the reason I wasnt sure about uploading the video, but I think there good things to come from it. 
I like what A'tim did in the NVBK, I am not putting the dog down. I think maybe Jao went into the korung too confident. 
In the boxes test it was not an attack on the handler, but rather the dog was attacked. But like I said, he recovered which is important.


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## Max Orsi

"In the boxes test it was not an attack on the handler, but rather the dog was attacked. But like I said, he recovered which is important.[/quote]"

"The first attack, the one as you referr as with the boxes is an attack on the handler, in SCh IPO the dogs are trained to respond to the aggression from a distance, look at the old attack out of the blind, still present in the DMC korung and the attack out of the rear transport today.

In BR the dog is trained, under penalty of correction, not to bite untill the handler is attacked by way of a clear strong touch from the decoy, there is also one hand shake and when the decoy jumps out it tries to entice the dog to bite(fail) before the aggression."

I am talking about what the dog is trained to do. Do you think the dog sees it as an attack on the dog or an attack on the handler given his experience and training?

You still don't get it, do you?

Going to bed dreaming to become a good dog trainer who can spend time with good dog trainers of all disciplines and good dogs.

Good luck with your training

Max


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## Christopher Jones

Max Orsi said:


> "In the boxes test it was not an attack on the handler, but rather the dog was attacked. But like I said, he recovered which is important."
> 
> "The first attack, the one as you referr as with the boxes is an attack on the handler, in SCh IPO the dogs are trained to respond to the aggression from a distance, look at the old attack out of the blind, still present in the DMC korung and the attack out of the rear transport today.
> 
> In BR the dog is trained, under penalty of correction, not to bite untill the handler is attacked by way of a clear strong touch from the decoy, there is also one hand shake and when the decoy jumps out it tries to entice the dog to bite(fail) before the aggression."
> 
> I am talking about what the dog is trained to do. Do you think the dog sees it as an attack on the dog or an attack on the handler given his experience and training?
> 
> You still don't get it, do you?
> 
> Going to bed dreaming to become a good dog trainer who can spend time with good dog trainers of all disciplines and good dogs.
> 
> Good luck with your training
> 
> Max


Oh I get it dude, but it looks like you dont. I know how atim is trained. I only have about 6 hours of him on DVD training and trialing. Oh and I know the rules of NVBK as I train towards it and have the full english trial and decoy rules. We all know atim is routine trained to only bite when the decoy attacks his owner. That however is not what I was refering to. If you look at the video you will see that the decoy actually attacks the dog. He kicks the dog and threatens him. The decoy doesnt look to the handler, but singles the dog out. This means he ATTACKED THE DOG, now you get it? I am not reffering to what they decoy should of done, or what atim throught might have been done, I am talking about what actually happened. I dont know what IPO you have ever seen or done, but I have never seen them kick the dogs. The decoy attacked A'tim and they wanted to see A'tim defend himself, which he did in the end. A'tim may have seen this as an NVBK exercies and not reacted as per what the decoys and DMC wanted to see. Wether Atim saw it as a part of an NVBK exercise, poeple can debate. I dont know how he saw it, maybe he did maybe he didnt. Thats why I am far more interested in how it ended up. Did the dog piss himself and run, or did he recover and go through with biting?


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## Max Orsi

OK Mr. Jones, Let's try one last time.

In SChH/IPO dogs are routinely trained "Civil", incouraged to respond with aggression to aggression.

During all the routine of the bitework excercises the only time the dog is ask to show some restraint from attacking (biting) the decoy is on the courage test and the handler still has the option to hold the dog by the collar all the other bites are "automatic", the decoy aggresses dog bite, decoy move dog bite.

In the ring sport, including the BR the dog are not icouraged to be "civil", it makes the control harder, they are trained to remain passive to any aggressive action of the decoy, the only exception being when the handler is being aggressed by the decoy by touching, not to be confused with the hand shake, all other attacks, with the exception of the escort are only on command, the dog having to hold a position untill ordered.

If you take your time to just look at BR trial footage on the internet you will notice that during the DoH decoys routinely aggressively challenge and pushe the dog even throwing object, water etc. at the dog and the dog is to remain passive untill the handler is aggressed.

Again, based on the dog experience and training, do you think the dog performed poorly because of temperament flaws or because of his training? Because the dog did performed poorly.

You mentioned are training BR, I would love to see a video of your dog.

Again, good luck with you training

Max


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## Jeff Oehlsen

It is the training. The dogs flat out are NOT supposed to bite just because of aggression.

A good example of this would be a KNPV dog on a FR decoy. The dog is gonna look like a retard BIG TIME. An average KNPV dog is gonna run.

Dogs are trained to do this shit, and then it becomes a conditioned response.

Until you get to the higher levels in the sport, you just don't see how this would be easy, as far as making the dog look retarded. Personally, the dog was amazing, and never looked more than confused.

Reading a dog is something that I do not see people have much talent at. I hear all about how "amazing" someone is at reading a dog, but I have yet to see it. Most of the people giving the compliments are the dogs owners.

This is a good video to watch over and over.


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## Christopher Jones

Max Orsi said:


> Again, based on the dog experience and training, do you think the dog performed poorly because of temperament flaws or because of his training? Because the dog did performed poorly.
> 
> Max


I thought the dog did well. He was taken out of his comfort, and condidtioned zone and was put in a situation where he had to decide what to do. What I saw was the dogs genes come out. He went into avoidence (confusion) when the intial attack on him occured, he then came through that by engaging the helper. This tells me more about the real dog than all your talk of conditioning.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I wouldn't say that was avoidance. Confusion and avoicance are not the same.

Terminology is important.


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## Christopher Jones

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I wouldn't say that was avoidance. Confusion and avoicance are not the same.
> 
> Terminology is important.


And terminology also differs from people to people, so that sometimes makes it difficult. He "avoided" the engagment initally from the decoy, so thats aviodence to me. Avoidance can be due to confussion, nerves, whatever. Whenever a dog aviods something, and atim did go backwards in the video, its avoidence. What crerated the avoidence then needs to be included, and with Atim we can talk about training etc. But again, he recovered and engaged the decoy, so its not all bad. Second time A'tim goes past the boxes and the decoy comes out Atim nails him. 
But yes, its an excellent video to show how a dog trained soley in one venue will have problems if just put in another venue without any from of cross training.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I think he was the Catagory 2 champion at that point in his life. Could be wrong, but to be trained at that level, you are not going to see him run off and bite a guy. I think most dogs trained to that level are not going to do so well without additional training.

The fact that they did not train for this is good. It shows us many many things, things that n00bs need to see and realize. By training for it, we do not get to see this good of a picture of what the dog is.


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## Sami Kiiveri

> I was a bit hesitant about uploading the clip but I think it really shows how just training a dog in one way can show holes in a dog if he is exposed to new tests.


Thanks Chris for uploading this.


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## Max Orsi

"I thought the dog did well. He was taken out of his comfort, and condidtioned zone and was put in a situation where he had to decide what to do. What I saw was the dogs genes come out. He went into avoidence (confusion) when the intial attack on him occured, he then came through that by engaging the helper. This tells me more about the real dog than all your talk of conditioning."

The dog did not do well, that's why it did not pass the korung, even after he bit it showed a lot of conflict.

Avoidance and confusion are very different, if you think the dog "went into avoidance" he should not have bee allowed to re attempt, avoidance is a temperament issue.

Everybody in charge of the korung, observed a confused dog and felt the training was exploited.

So you think "the dog genes came out", I and apparently everyone else giving the test believe the" dog training came out", as it usually does in any test and competition.

Any way, the dog after preparing for the korung went on to pass with good scores, maybe you should upload that video to compare.

*I would still like to see one video of your dog doing BR, just to know who I am talking to*.

Happy training

Max


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## Timothy Stacy

Max Orsi said:


> "I thought the dog did well. He was taken out of his comfort, and condidtioned zone and was put in a situation where he had to decide what to do. What I saw was the dogs genes come out. He went into avoidence (confusion) when the intial attack on him occured, he then came through that by engaging the helper. This tells me more about the real dog than all your talk of conditioning."
> 
> The dog did not do well, that's why it did not pass the korung, even after he bit it showed a lot of conflict.
> 
> Avoidance and confusion are very different, if you think the dog "went into avoidance" he should not have bee allowed to re attempt, avoidance is a temperament issue.
> 
> Everybody in charge of the korung, observed a confused dog and felt the training was exploited.
> 
> So you think "the dog genes came out", I and apparently everyone else giving the test believe the" dog training came out", as it usually does in any test and competition.
> 
> Any way, the dog after preparing for the korung went on to pass with good scores, maybe you should upload that video to compare.
> 
> *I would still like to see one video of your dog doing BR, just to know who I am talking to*.
> 
> Happy training
> 
> Max


Great points Max. You and Jeff are right on. As for getting video from Chris =; LOL. He will show 3 vids of his dog being sent to bite, Absolutely nothing to do w BR but he does have the rule book so.... I think his dog was biting when he got it from Holland so I guess progress has been slow.


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## Max Orsi

I forgot.

A dog in avoidance would not have re engage in the following attacks, with the speed and intensity Atim showed, speed and intensity shows determination, it would have, as the word "avoidance" implies, avoided the situation showing insecurities well before getting to the bite.

Happy training

Max


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## Dwyras Brown

I think the both of you, Max and Christopher, are talking pretty much about the same thing. But wording is getting in the way. Let me see if I have what you both are saying. I won't use training terminology, just plain English.

The dog was placed in a situation he wasn't trained for. After a moment of hesitation, the dog decided to take it to the decoy. Is that the gist of what you are both trying to say?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Pretty much what it seems like. I re read everything. It is a matter of seeing what is the training, and what is the dog. THis is a good lesson for people.


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## Max Orsi

No! that is not what I am saying.

Max


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## James Downey

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Pretty much what it seems like. I re read everything. It is a matter of seeing what is the training, and what is the dog. THis is a good lesson for people.


 
Yeah, if you show up with a dog that can do the work (both training and/or temperment)....8 years later no one will be arguing if your dog got ran or was it just a training conflict


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## Dwyras Brown

I like the discussions, but sometimes wording getsw in the way of whats being said. Then egos just f$%ks it all up from that point on and people stop learning.


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## Max Orsi

Dwyras Brown said:


> I think the both of you, Max and Christopher, are talking pretty much about the same thing. But wording is getting in the way. Let me see if I have what you both are saying. I won't use training terminology, just plain English.
> 
> The dog was placed in a situation he wasn't trained for. After a moment of hesitation, the dog decided to take it to the decoy. Is that the gist of what you are both trying to say?


Dwayras what I am saying is that the dog really never took it to the decoy and showed to be in conflict in all the bitework tests, as a result of what his training and conditioning was.

Acoording to the korung standards the dog did not perform in a satisfactory manner it was therefore failed.

The Korung evaluators realized that could be due to the training differences and allowed the dog to re do the test to verify the dog true temperament.

I can see the training issue because I am somewhat familiar with the training of ringsports, if I were to watch the video without knowing the name of the dog and his back gound I would consider his performance poor and the dog not worth.

This is the reason I don't like videos of failures posted without explanation of the failure. 

Atim is a good prooven dog and producer, deserve the time to objectively analize his performance.

Had he not being Atim, but an unknown dog he would have been label a POS.

I can just remember a video a few months back of a dutch shepherd during a ring trial in mexico, same tipe of circumstances.

Happy training

Max


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## Dwyras Brown

Thanks for a better worded explanation, Max. A lot easier to understand when you get away from the training terms that have 4 or 5 different meanings.


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## Kyle Sprag

Max Orsi said:


> Dwayras what I am saying is that the dog really never took it to the decoy and showed to be in conflict in all the bitework tests, as a result of what his training and conditioning was.
> 
> Acoording to the korung standards the dog did not perform in a satisfactory manner it was therefore failed.
> 
> The Korung evaluators realized that could be due to the training differences and allowed the dog to re do the test to verify the dog true temperament.
> 
> I can see the training issue because I am somewhat familiar with the training of ringsports, if I were to watch the video without knowing the name of the dog and his back gound I would consider his performance poor and the dog not worth.
> 
> This is the reason I don't like videos of failures posted without explanation of the failure.
> 
> Atim is a good prooven dog and producer, deserve the time to objectively analize his performance.
> 
> Had he not being Atim, but an unknown dog he would have been label a POS.
> 
> I can just remember a video a few months back of a dutch shepherd during a ring trial in mexico, same tipe of circumstances.
> 
> Happy training
> 
> Max


 
Very True.

This is one reason I like to see control, you don't know what you have until you see the control work put on a dog. Many Monsters will Melt once the Control needed to walk on a ring field is done.

A lot of people would Cringe at some of the things I have seen in training with some Highly requarded "very strong" dogs. I agree that Conflict and Confusion is Not the same as Avoidance.


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## Chad Byerly

Thanks for posting this video.


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## Christopher Jones

Timothy Stacy said:


> Great points Max. You and Jeff are right on. As for getting video from Chris =; LOL. He will show 3 vids of his dog being sent to bite, Absolutely nothing to do w BR but he does have the rule book so.... I think his dog was biting when he got it from Holland so I guess progress has been slow.


haha, Timmmyyy. Still upset I have rained on your parade? And we all know how much you people love a colourful parade now dont we.....


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## Christopher Jones

Meh, deleted the video. Just to make Maxi happy. Sleep and train well dude.


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## Chad Byerly

Why erase the video???


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## Timothy Saunders

Max Orsi said:


> Dwayras what I am saying is that the dog really never took it to the decoy and showed to be in conflict in all the bitework tests, as a result of what his training and conditioning was.
> 
> Acoording to the korung standards the dog did not perform in a satisfactory manner it was therefore failed.
> 
> The Korung evaluators realized that could be due to the training differences and allowed the dog to re do the test to verify the dog true temperament.
> 
> I can see the training issue because I am somewhat familiar with the training of ringsports, if I were to watch the video without knowing the name of the dog and his back gound I would consider his performance poor and the dog not worth.
> 
> This is the reason I don't like videos of failures posted without explanation of the failure.
> 
> Atim is a good prooven dog and producer, deserve the time to objectively analize his performance.
> 
> Had he not being Atim, but an unknown dog he would have been label a POS.
> 
> I can just remember a video a few months back of a dutch shepherd during a ring trial in mexico, same tipe of circumstances.
> 
> Happy training
> 
> Max


 
I would disagree that the dog never took it to the decoy. He was only hesitant on the intial scenario. When he jumped over boxes and the other scenarios he did fine. Many of you have worked with police dogs and have probably have seen this reaction a few times. The important part of the video was the recovery which someone said. You can never show your dog every single thing. If your dog will work no matter what you have a dog with character. A'tim is one of the best malinois of our time. lets not forget that. jmo


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## Max Orsi

Timothy,

if the dog had taken it to the decoy he would have passed the korung, plain and simple.

As I said in one of my previous post the second attack, the one that he had to jump over the boxes, was his best attack, because more similar to the ones he was trained to do.

I also never said that Atim is not a good dog, one of the best of all times I don't agree.

With some specific training he went on to pass the second time.

Just being objective.

Happy training

Max


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## Max Orsi

Also, you said the dog was esitant, that makes me think more of insecure (temperament).

I said the dog was confused and in conflict, because trained to react in totally different manner in similar circumstances.

I know Atim is a good dog, because of his achivements, but you can never say how good a dog is unless you had the chance to see and work him yourself, you can tell more about a dog temperament while is not working than when he is, but you have to be there yourself.

I have also owned one Atim pup in the last 4 years but was not what I was looking for.

Happy training

Max


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## andreas broqvist

I downt know if I realy have anyting to back this up with, But I feel that I more ofthen than not I hear that his offspring in not at al as good as him.
Is it true? Do he not produce well? How many ofsprings do he have and how did they work out overall?

So this is not based at aniting I know, Just a question.


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## Timothy Saunders

Max Orsi said:


> Timothy,
> 
> if the dog had taken it to the decoy he would have passed the korung, plain and simple.
> 
> As I said in one of my previous post the second attack, the one that he had to jump over the boxes, was his best attack, because more similar to the ones he was trained to do.
> 
> I also never said that Atim is not a good dog, one of the best of all times I don't agree.
> 
> With some specific training he went on to pass the second time.
> 
> Just being objective.
> 
> Happy training
> 
> Max


,\
Hello Max , I like having discussions with you( intellegent content and no emotions). that being said A'Tim failed because the test was unfair. we will have to agree to disagree about his place as one of the best.

tim


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## Timothy Saunders

Max Orsi said:


> Also, you said the dog was esitant, that makes me think more of insecure (temperament).
> 
> I said the dog was confused and in conflict, because trained to react in totally different manner in similar circumstances.
> 
> I know Atim is a good dog, because of his achivements, but you can never say how good a dog is unless you had the chance to see and work him yourself, you can tell more about a dog temperament while is not working than when he is, but you have to be there yourself.
> 
> I have also owned one Atim pup in the last 4 years but was not what I was looking for.
> 
> Happy training
> 
> Max


 like it was said language is ugly. I will go with your conflict. I don't think that I have to work a dog to know that it is good. I do agree that you learn as much about the dog off the field as on . their are plenty of dogs that are considered great that I wil never see(they are dead) and example is cartouche. We will always say that some dogs we saw were great but no one ever saw them.
The fact that you owned 1 A'tim son and you didn't like it has nothing to do with him being good or bad. Every proven producer has produced dogs that not good. As you know who you breed your dog to has a great effect on what you get ( genes lining up and bloodlines).Lastly I saw him in september and even at his age he will put some teeth in you .


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## Timothy Saunders

andreas broqvist said:


> I downt know if I realy have anyting to back this up with, But I feel that I more ofthen than not I hear that his offspring in not at al as good as him.
> Is it true? Do he not produce well? How many ofsprings do he have and how did they work out overall?
> 
> So this is not based at aniting I know, Just a question.


Hello Andreas, only his owners can say how many times he was bred. One of the most important things to remember about A'tim as a stud is that his owners don't breed dogs. They only stud him so they are not breeding to bitches that they know make good pups with him. I don't know what their test is to approve bitches .Most stud dogs don't produce dogs as good as themselves. they say he produce a dog that has aggression which doesn't alway make a good sport dog.


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## Max Orsi

"I don't think that I have to work a dog to know that it is good."

I am a little surprised by your statement above.

There is another tread about type"A" and "B" dog in this forum. How do you know, based on trial performance what type the dog is?

Is it sensitive and compliant or hard and non compliant with the handler guidance?
What about the decoy guidance?
The other peole in the training field?

How does it rank itself with the handler? the decoy? the other people in the field?

Is a stern voice correction enough to make him avoid the next mistake or do you need a two by four?

Is it a quick learner or a dog that tests your skills and patience untill the end?

How hard is its grip when it bites? Does the grip get harder or softer when you increase the pressure?

Does it bring the fight to you when you increase the pressure? Does it become unsure? does it goes along as if part of a game?

How confident is the dog environmentally when out of drive in daily life?

How does it ranks itself with the family? Unknown people?

Is it alert or not?

Those are just very few questions (but very important)that you cannot answer unless you spend some time working the dog and hanging around when the dog is not working.

If you cannot answer the above question you are going to breed and pass judgement on a dog just based on training performances and not the dog qualities.

Happy training

Max


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Max, when is your next litter ?? I would want to have a chance at getting a pup.


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## Max Orsi

When I can find dogs with most of the quality I like.

Maybe I will get lucky on my spring trip in belgium and will find something I like and can afford


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Okay, I lost the first attempt at this. This is probably one of the most educational threads I've seen in awhile. Character vs. training and can you really tell by watching a video. I've said before that only the people involved in the dog's training and raising really know the dog's character or complete mental package. Jeff has mentioned conditioned responses before. Are any of the sports/tests designed to test a raw dog unfamiliar with what the decoy is going to do? The dog has to bring a certain amount to the table in terms of nerves and drives. However, the rest is training and conditioning. I'm curious as to what is the Korung supposed to test and were the decoys acting outside of the rules. How else would you declare it "unfair" rather than the handler's failure to prepare his dog?


Terrasita


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## Timothy Saunders

Max Orsi said:


> "I don't think that I have to work a dog to know that it is good."
> 
> I am a little surprised by your statement above.
> 
> There is another tread about type"A" and "B" dog in this forum. How do you know, based on trial performance what type the dog is?
> 
> Is it sensitive and compliant or hard and non compliant with the handler guidance?
> What about the decoy guidance?
> The other peole in the training field?
> 
> How does it rank itself with the handler? the decoy? the other people in the field?
> 
> Is a stern voice correction enough to make him avoid the next mistake or do you need a two by four?
> 
> Is it a quick learner or a dog that tests your skills and patience untill the end?
> 
> How hard is its grip when it bites? Does the grip get harder or softer when you increase the pressure?
> 
> Does it bring the fight to you when you increase the pressure? Does it become unsure? does it goes along as if part of a game?
> 
> How confident is the dog environmentally when out of drive in daily life?
> 
> How does it ranks itself with the family? Unknown people?
> 
> Is it alert or not?
> 
> Those are just very few questions (but very important)that you cannot answer unless you spend some time working the dog and hanging around when the dog is not working.
> 
> If you cannot answer the above question you are going to breed and pass judgement on a dog just based on training performances and not the dog qualities.
> 
> Happy training
> 
> Max


 some of the things you have posted have nothing to do with if the dog is good. some dogs are slow learners , how he ranks himself with the family and people on the field, if he listens to a stern voice, these things have to do with the dogs individual personality.

some of the other things have to so with his character(if he is good) . is he confident in his everyday life, does he increase the fight as you apply pressure which may also have to do with his grip. 

I can see someone else work the dog to tell some of these things. I know plenty of old men who don't get in a suit and buy good dogs. I do agree that you can not tell all there is to know about a dog from trials , but in this paticular case I thought it was good. the dog was out of his environment and not trained for the test. If that guy doesn't have a suit on he gets bitten in both arms (first attack) and in the leg. In his confusion he still bit . that spells good dog to me


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## Timothy Saunders

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Okay, I lost the first attempt at this. This is probably one of the most educational threads I've seen in awhile. Character vs. training and can you really tell by watching a video. I've said before that only the people involved in the dog's training and raising really know the dog's character or complete mental package. Jeff has mentioned conditioned responses before. Are any of the sports/tests designed to test a raw dog unfamiliar with what the decoy is going to do? The dog has to bring a certain amount to the table in terms of nerves and drives. However, the rest is training and conditioning. I'm curious as to what is the Korung supposed to test and were the decoys acting outside of the rules. How else would you declare it "unfair" rather than the handler's failure to prepare his dog?
> 
> 
> Terrasita


the test is designed to test the character of the dog. I would say it is unfair because I don't know or haven't heard of anyone who say they saw a korung that was this tough. to have a fair test it has to be the same for all who take it. I used to compete in psa , one of the problems was that the test were different at every trial . some dogs got water out of a bottle spilled on them others got fire hoses. while o.k. by the rules it was not the same test. 

you are right in your statement dogs bring the most important part to the table (character) but training make the rest of the package . Jmo tim


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## andreas broqvist

hmm yes thats the thing with tests like mondio, psa and belgian ring, the feeld and the test changes to truly test a dog.

its bilt around the same kind of bites but the test is difrent.
i think its a good thing. you nead a wellrounden confident dog.


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## andreas broqvist

in sweden we have tre difrent temprament tests. 2 are stadard tests, exactly the same to every dog. they are also regestrated in the fci database so anyone can look at them and use them for statistics for complete liters, studs, breed.

then the third test is a l-test, a starting test to se if the dog is ok to start traning for police ore patroldog. this test is not same for al dogs, it bilt around the same type of tests but they pusch the dog untill they get a real response. harder dogs get more presure and viseversa.

to me this is the test to look at if you truly want to se a single dog.
the standard test has its good things when looking at the big picture but to trule se a dog you nead difrent presures for difrent dogs.

a ipo iii dog is not the same as a ipo iii dog


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## James Degale

What video? Where has it gone?

I've watched some videos of DMC korungs and them dogs are tested to a much higher level than the showline GSD korung farce. So although you seem to be arguing about training versus innate response, I'm sure the dog in question is miles even light years better than anything you get at the GSD show korungs, hope that cheers you up. Would be nice to see the famous Atim in action if someone can point me to the vidoe, I cannot seem to open it.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Are any of the sports/tests designed to test a raw dog unfamiliar with what the decoy is going to do?

You just saw one. : )

I cannot imagine anyone waiting with a really nice dog and not training him for something until he was old enough to do something like this. Just not realistic.


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## Kadi Thingvall

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I'm curious as to what is the Korung supposed to test and were the decoys acting outside of the rules. How else would you declare it "unfair" rather than the handler's failure to prepare his dog?


Fair or unfair, inside or outside of the rules I don't know, not without reading the specific rules for this test. But one example would be if the handler isn't allowed to talk to the dog except to tell them "out". A Sch trained dog (and this is a German test) is trained to bite, without a command from the handler, immediately upon an aggressive move from the helper. A Ring trained dog is taught to never bite except when he's told to, or when the handler is specifically attacked. An actual physical hit, not just a decoy pretending they are going to hit the dog. Put a Ring trained dog in a situation where the decoy is charging them, yelling, throwing things around or knocking them down and the Ring dog is thinking "oh heck no, you aren't tricking me into biting you early, I know I'll get killed by my handler for it" Put a Sch trained dog in the same situation and they will immediately bite at the first sign of the aggression. Now if the handler CAN tell the dog "attack" as soon as the decoys attack starts, that's another matter. Does anyone know if the handler can say "attack"?

Is it fair? I don't think it's exactly unfair, it's a German test, designed with dogs trained for a German sport in mind. Should the German's have written their test taking into account the French, Belgian, etc dogs? I don't neccessarily think so, not if they aren't advertising the Korung as anything other then a German BST. Should the test be administered the same way each time? Yes, but it's my understanding the Korung does change from test to test specifically so people can't take a questionable dog, and pattern train it to the exercises so it can squeak through. So I guess the level of pressure should be consistent, but the actual scenarios would change. Was the test administered unfairly to A'Tim? Does anyone know if there is video of the other dogs that tested that day at the same level? That would be interesting to see.


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## James Degale

I read some of the discussions and found them interesting. Thanks. I am guessing this is a dog being tested in a routine he was not trained for, makes me want to see the video even more. 

The reality for every dog handler who works a dog on the street is that one day your dog will come up against a situation where he does not engage immediately. Positive street experience and good training will lessen this chance. The crucial thing is that he overcomes hesitation and then goes in with vengeance because he has been told to or his handler is on the ground!


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## Max Orsi

"The reality for every dog handler who works a dog on the street is that one day your dog will come up against a situation where he does not engage immediately. Positive street experience and good training will lessen this chance. The crucial thing is that he overcomes hesitation and then goes in with vengeance because he has been told to or his handler is on the ground!"

If the dog is a good dog and properly conditioned work the street it would bite everytime.

If you condition a dog to bite, without having to worry about any other behavior, before or after the bite, the dog will bite.
When the dog is highly trained to perform a series of behaviours, leading to and after the bite, it may get confused.

There is a video of french Swat dog on the internet (GSGN), those dog are exclusively trained to attack, not even to find Narcotics or explosives. Theay are trained to bite and release only by physical manipulation of the handler, therefore impossible for the dog to get confused, no matter what the scenario is they are conditioned to bite untill the handler removes them.

Reasong being that is the "bad" guy is busy fighting a dog it cannot fight the "good guys".

The korung is designed to test dogs trained in IPO/Schh, with added decoy pressure and environmental pressure. The excercises are always the same, the environmental stimulus varies.

Again Atim was subsequently prepared for the test and went on to pass it, being one of only a handfull of dog to ever do.

Happy training

Max


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## Max Orsi

"some of the things you have posted have nothing to do with if the dog is good. some dogs are slow learners , how he ranks himself with the family and people on the field, if he listens to a stern voice, these things have to do with the dogs individual personality."

This thing have to do with dominace and submissiveness, the higher true dominance, that's the reson why you have to check the dog rank in various situation, a weak andler can make his dog dominant over him while in fact the dog may not be dominant with any of the other circumstances I described.

Dominance in a dog is very important, if you like easy or hard dogs.

The higher the Rank the higher the dominance the higher the dog will try to overcome and submit the attacker, the higher the dominance the lesser will to please his handler, dogs like this need to be "tricked" into believing the are working for themself and not for the handler.

Happy training.

Max


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## Drew Peirce

(If you condition a dog to bite, without having to worry about any other behavior, before or after the bite, the dog will bite.
When the dog is highly trained to perform a series of behaviours, leading to and after the bite, it may get confused.

There is a video of french Swat dog on the internet (GSGN), those dog are exclusively trained to attack, not even to find Narcotics or explosives. Theay are trained to bite and release only by physical manipulation of the handler, therefore impossible for the dog to get confused, no matter what the scenario is they are conditioned to bite untill the handler removes them.

Reasong being that is the "bad" guy is busy fighting a dog it cannot fight the "good guys".)


Thanks Max...


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Is there anyway to get the video back. I only watched it once before delving into reading the discussions. Would like to watch it again in light of the comments regarding ring training vs. Sch/IPO training from Kadi and others. As for character vs. training, the training can change how the dog displays his character. Its that command over instinct thing. The dog may have the instinct/character to deal with the situation, but if he has been trained otherwise, he may not respond or respond badly. He will do what he thinks he is allowed to do. I understand that there are some aspects of the test that varies, but you know enough about it to work the dog in the different scenarios. Whether the dog gets to respond to an attack on himself without the release/command to do so is a huge factor I think. Max indicates that regardless, the dog is trained in various behavior chains. Its not whether the dog has the character to deal with the unknown or what's outside his comfort zone. He's trained to perform a certain way under a given set of circumstances. You change the circumstances and expect the trained dog to free lance. Does a trained dog do that? The handler goes back to the drawing board and provides the dog with some new information; i.e. under these circumstances, you are allowed to do. . . Now the dog passes.

Terrasita


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## Al Curbow

How many chances does a dog get?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: As for character vs. training, the training can change how the dog displays his character. Its that command over instinct thing.

I don't know how much is still on Google, but if you go into google vids and search martine loots, you will find some video of A'Tm, and some training.

Herding is more putting a command to what the dog is doing sorta on his own. This is making the dog do what you want regardless of what he wants. Digging through the training to see the character is what good dog people should always be thinking of. It is a good thing to see and discuss as much as possible. Unfortunately, many many dog people are very sensitive, so people have kinda lost this.

We are a small community, really spread apart. I remember when I was a kid you could ask these questions and maybe get a weird look for a second, but then you could get a discussion about training and character, and it was real good. Now the assumption is that you are going to burn their house down or something and how dare you I will punch your face. LOL Sissies.


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## Nicole Stark

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Digging through the training to see the character is what good dog people should always be thinking of. It is a good thing to see and discuss as much as possible. Unfortunately, many many dog people are very sensitive, so people have kinda lost this.


You are right and some of that inhibited discussion could be an unintended consequence of chosen methods employed by some to mentor others. Jeff, I am only going to say this to you once but you have far too much to offer this forum to degrade your contributions in the manner you do on occasion. That said, what you state above is a given as far as I am concerned. It's one of those fundamental pieces that gets lost along the way and results in people eventually forgetting (or never really knowing) why the activity/training, or whatever was initiated to begin with. 

This is without question one of the better threads posted recently because it gets right to the heart of the matter and presents a genuine opportunity for learning. Thanks to those who have contributed along the way.


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## Timothy Saunders

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: As for character vs. training, the training can change how the dog displays his character. Its that command over instinct thing.
> 
> I don't know how much is still on Google, but if you go into google vids and search martine loots, you will find some video of A'Tm, and some training.
> 
> Herding is more putting a command to what the dog is doing sorta on his own. This is making the dog do what you want regardless of what he wants. Digging through the training to see the character is what good dog people should always be thinking of. It is a good thing to see and discuss as much as possible. Unfortunately, many many dog people are very sensitive, so people have kinda lost this.
> 
> We are a small community, really spread apart. I remember when I was a kid you could ask these questions and maybe get a weird look for a second, but then you could get a discussion about training and character, and it was real good. Now the assumption is that you are going to burn their house down or something and how dare you I will punch your face. LOL Sissies.


Jeff you are very right about being a small community and being spread apart. that to me is the one thing the Europeans have over us. When I went to some of the clubs in Europe there was about 100yrs experience sometimes through out the club. this was a good thread. I would like to see the passed korung 3


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Herding is more putting a command to what the dog is doing sorta on his own. This is making the dog do what you want regardless of what he wants.
> 
> Jeff, herding has LOTS of commanding the dog to perform as the handler wants despite what the dog wants or how the dog sees it. For instance, to trial successfully on light sheep, you have to train a dog to move off pressure. BCs do this on their own and they are bred to do it that way. Other breeds are bred to come into pressure to get control. The old timers in herding have a saying "never take the bite out of the dog, you may need it." But under a lot of judges [particularly in AKC], a bite is an automatic NQ. So dog A that has been trained to work 75-100 feet off sheep and never to come in to the flight zone [or fight for that matter] meets up with a set of sheep that face it stomp and will try to run it off the field. Genetically, that dog could have had it to control these sheep. However, he has been trained within an inch of his life not to put any pressure on them. Any stock [including ducks] will exploit this. Now, unless you know what this dog was raw and how he was trained, he will just look like a dog with no confidence whatsoever and what I call an obedience placement dog. Most of the time that type of dog will look fabulous on fright/flight stock and is a contender for high in trial.
> 
> Thanks for the search ideas. I tried before but couldn't come up with anything.
> 
> Terrasita


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## Bob Scott

What Terraista just commented on is exactly what were doing with Thunder. He has the power and desire to control all sorts of stock. Our quest is to let that develope without taking the instincts out of him and make him just another "obedience placement dog". 
His idea of handling stock pressure is to confront a challenge head on. That's not always a good thing in trial work........but he'd make one helluva working farm dog. :-D :wink: 
He still has to mind what he's told to do but we want that power a GSD brings to herding. Not the BC that many times can't control stock that isn't dog or handler friendly. They are out there just not often seen in AKC type trials.


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## Max Orsi

Terrasita wrote:
"Jeff, herding has LOTS of commanding the dog to perform as the handler wants despite what the dog wants or how the dog sees it. For instance, to trial successfully on light sheep, you have to train a dog to move off pressure. BCs do this on their own and they are bred to do it that way. Other breeds are bred to come into pressure to get control. The old timers in herding have a saying "never take the bite out of the dog, you may need it." But under a lot of judges [particularly in AKC], a bite is an automatic NQ. So dog A that has been trained to work 75-100 feet off sheep and never to come in to the flight zone [or fight for that matter] meets up with a set of sheep that face it stomp and will try to run it off the field. Genetically, that dog could have had it to control these sheep. However, he has been trained within an inch of his life not to put any pressure on them. Any stock [including ducks] will exploit this. Now, unless you know what this dog was raw and how he was trained, he will just look like a dog with no confidence whatsoever and what I call an obedience placement dog. Most of the time that type of dog will look fabulous on fright/flight stock and is a contender for high in trial."

Terrasita you gave a perfect example, in a different sport/work setting, of how training can override the true nature/temperament of a dog.

*I would love to see some non AKC herding videos if you have some*.

Happy training

Max


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## Max Orsi

Jeff wrote:
"We are a small community, really spread apart. I remember when I was a kid you could ask these questions and maybe get a weird look for a second, but then you could get a discussion about training and character, and it was real good. Now the assumption is that you are going to burn their house down or something and how dare you I will punch your face. LOL Sissies."

I think the major problem I see here is that dog training is about the trainer and not the dog.

If people would train in any sport just for the love of the breed, they would spend more time learning about dogs instead of trying to make themself land their dog look better than everyone else.

How many times, in a club setting you hear talking about other people good dogs?

How many time you hear talking about how $hytt! and how many difects and problems other people dog have, even when they perform very well?

How many times you hear people wanting to breed to this dog and that dog purely based on trial performances (winning) without having ever seen the dog in person?

That, I think is the major difference between "Here" and "There".

When I am "There" I hear people talking about dogs they like, indipendently from who ownes them and where, not about the trainers who are winning and the ones that are not.

Instead of looking at the dogs we are still arguing about what sport is better, harder and creates the most serious dogs.

Any sport is just about training a dog to perform a series of behaviours.

The dogs are created by the work of the breeder and his preference nothing else.

I f you love your breed, start watching the dogs! 

Happy training

Max


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## Frank David

To shed some light on the DMC Korung... To breed in the DMC the owner has to have the Korung. With the old system (Korung 1 - 3) the tests did get progressively harder to a degree but the main difference was based on age. Korung 1 was for dogs up to 2 1/2 years old, Kor 2 was for dogs between 2 1/2 to 4 yrs old and Kor 3 was for dogs over 4. In order to qualify for the Korung there are show & health requirements and in the last five years they have made various changes to the test. There are and always has been elements in the test with slight variations from Judge to Judge.

The new system combines the old Wesen test with the Körung. Play, prey, sound, obstacles... these are all tested on one test. It combines elements of Mondi, Ring and IPO and is supposed be better because the accumulation of stress from station to station, and at the end the dog gets the pressure of protection. The added catorgery's (values) of the new Körung also describe the dogs much more exact. 

Only the Judge determines if the dog can re-test, if the Judge decides the dog needs more time to develop he gets, "zurückgestellt" = held back and the Judge can exclude the dog from breeding as well.

Imo, anyone with any amount of experience in dog training is going to prepare their dog for this test. Arguablility the real question is, how much variation is fair and how much is needed to test a dogs character. The real test for any dog is how they handle unconditioned pressure but to not have any unprepared variation, is not testing the dog, it's testing the dogs training.


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## Mike Scheiber

Frank David said:


> To shed some light on the DMC Korung... To breed in the DMC the owner has to have the Korung. With the old system (Korung 1 - 3) the tests did get progressively harder to a degree but the main difference was based on age. Korung 1 was for dogs up to 2 1/2 years old, Kor 2 was for dogs between 2 1/2 to 4 yrs old and Kor 3 was for dogs over 4. In order to qualify for the Korung there are show & health requirements and in the last five years they have made various changes to the test. There are and always has been elements in the test with slight variations from Judge to Judge.
> 
> The new system combines the old Wesen test with the Körung. Play, prey, sound, obstacles... these are all tested on one test. It combines elements of Mondi, Ring and IPO and is supposed be better because the accumulation of stress from station to station, and at the end the dog gets the pressure of protection. The added catorgery's (values) of the new Körung also describe the dogs much more exact.
> 
> Only the Judge determines if the dog can re-test, if the Judge decides the dog needs more time to develop he gets, "zurückgestellt" = held back and the Judge can exclude the dog from breeding as well.
> 
> Imo, anyone with any amount of experience in dog training is going to prepare their dog for this test. Arguablility the real question is, how much variation is fair and how much is needed to test a dogs character. The real test for any dog is how they handle unconditioned pressure but to not have any unprepared variation, is not testing the dog, it's testing the dogs training.


I haven't heard any mention from the people that are breeding dogs on WDF about BST's or Korung's Breed Surveys really nothing of proper or third person testing or traditional working dog breeding methods.
Just Willy or Sally the dog man making puppies :-? sad don't ya think?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Tell me more about traditional working dog breeding methods. I would like to hear this from you, as I think you haven't a clue how they breed over there, and just have this myth in your head.

As far as a Korung over here, look how badly people here have bastardized the sports, as well as over there.

The only real thing they have over us, is that they know a heck of a lot more about the dogs they are breeding, as they were able to see generations of dogs trained and trialed.

We don't have that.

Look at this pedigree, and tell me what this dog would produce.

http://www.chiens-de-france.com/sit...D_SITE=13998&ID_CHIEN=345689&TABLE=t_chien_03

That is how we have to "guess".

Let me know if you think she will make working or pet dogs.

It is all good to basically know **** all and sit on your high horse and be wrong about basically everything, denial is a pretty powerful part of your make up, but it would be interesting to see how you guess, or at least see if you dare.


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## Kadi Thingvall

Mike Scheiber said:


> I haven't heard any mention from the people that are breeding dogs on WDF about BST's or Korung's Breed Surveys really nothing of proper or third person testing or traditional working dog breeding methods.


Although there are a lot of GSD owners on this forum, I think the Mali and DS owners, breeds which don't have these tests outside of Germany, are at least 50% if not more of this forum (might be an interesting poll). Meaning many discussions will be slanted based on the breed people own. 

Both the Malinois and DS have a very strong gene pool of working dogs, IMO the breeds *as a whole* are in better shape then the GSD, Rott, Dobe, etc. So please tell me how the BST, Korung, Breed Surveys are helping the GSD, Rott and Dobe, and how not having them is hurting the Malinois and DS?


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## Martin Koops

Whats the old saying if it isn't broke why fix it.

The Mals and DS seem to be doing fine without Breed surveys.


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## Martine Loots

Wow, quite a discussion going on here…

As A’Tim’s owner, I guess I have the right to give my side of the story and clear things up? 

Was the dog prepared for the Körung 3?

Answer is *“No, not at all”.* Why not? Because the people from DMC told us that the test would be adapted to the Belgian Ring program and to the dog’s training. Only target, they said, was to test his performance under extreme pressure.

Tim can handle any pressure, so we figured it would be ok. The exercises themselves weren’t that complicated.

But what happened was (on purpose or not…) that the way they tested was in complete contradiction to the dog’s training.

The defence:

As Kadi already pointed out, in Belgian Ring the dog *isn’t allowed to bite until there is actual physical contact between handler and decoy* and this means that the dog is punished if he attacks sooner.
Tim knows that very well, so it’s very normal that he was confused. But when the decoy kicked him, he couldn’t resist anymore and was like “Sorry boss, he hurts me so I’m biting him anyway”.

@Kadi: Yes, the handler is allowed to give the dog a command, but it was only *AFTER* the test that they told us. In BR a command isn’t allowed, so Joâo hadn’t given one.
As for your question if there were video’s from other dogs passing that test, the answer is no. 
A’Tim is *the only dog* to have passed Körung 3 during the last decade.
Moreover, his was the last K3 ever. Afterwards it got forbidden because of animal cruelty (they actually had hurt him pretty badly during one of the attacks and this had been filmed by the organization against animal cruelty).

The attacks:

First attack with the boxes was a perfect performance. Good work from the decoy and good work from the dog, who took the decoy down on the entry.

Second attack wasn’t a normal one. To get to the decoy, he had to cross a water and then climb a steep slope, while people above him were throwing jerrycans, filled with stones at him to prevent him from getting up there. Then he had to go in a tunnel with sirens and stroboscope light to attack. He did all that perfectly.
But then they wanted him to keep biting for more then 20sec, whereas in BR the attacks take 5sec and then the handler whistles the dog back.
With the sirens, it was impossible for the dog to hear anything, so he got confused after more then 10sec had passed. “had he missed the whistle signal?”.
Moreover the decoy started to lift him by the tail and shake him which hurts extremely (and caused the test to be forbidden because of animal cruelty) and he started pinching him in the flanks right where he normally has the teletacs.
He did that *on purpose to increase the dog’s confusion*. The dog thinks he missed his handler’s signal, so he lets go and returns to his handler.

People who were there can confirm that there was a storm of protest from the public, when it was announced that he didn’t pass the test. It wasn’t fair to the dog.

Some time later, the DMC contacted us to invite us to do the test again, because they admitted that it had been in contradiction to the dog’s training and we accepted.

Needless to say that this time we made it clear to the dog that he could do just as he liked and as long as he liked and he passed the test with glamour this time .


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## andreas broqvist

Do you have any Video of him pasing the test. It wuld be very nice to se. Even nicer if we had both test to looka at.

I askt erlyer how Tim has been as a producer. How has his ofspring turning out?


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## Martine Loots

I don't have a good video of the 1st Körung, as we were standing down the slope and behind the water and we couldn't see a thing from there.

The links to the video's of the second test are on our homepage www.workingmalinois.be

Tim has proved to be a strong producer and in various disciplines.
Mostly the offspring are tough dogs and it needs a strong, experienced handler to get results.

Many of his offspring are titled IPO3, SCH3 and BR1 (all highest level and winning numerous trials) or are working as police dogs, Special Forces, Army or SAR (you can find examples on our homepage).
Dovre Fjeld Zero became Austrian Champion IPO3 twice and ended 13th place in the World Championship next to working as a Police Dog.
Doc Van het Dreiland became Belgian Champion IPO3 2008 and Vice Champion 2009 and was selected for the World Championships every year.
Duras became Vice Champion NVBK Cat3 and Provincial Champion
Petra Nossian became 11th at the World Championships with her A'Tim Grandson.
Igor vh Rietje (A'Tim grandson) became Champion NVBK Cat3 2008

A lot of offspring also proved to be strong producers and he has very promising grandchildren competing already in BR or in training for the coming seasons.


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## Cesar A. Flores Dueñas

First of all thanks for give us a First hand response 

On the video that we saw, i dont know if the order of the atttacks were right, Is a fact A'tim hesitate on the first attack and get back from the decoy when he make pressure with bottles i thing filled with stones, of course the dog recovers from the event and bite, that was a defensive bite not a Full bite typical from ATim.

A'Tims Quality is not under discussion and never will be, and is obrvious for people that knows a little about dog behaviour reading, all the bite releases were related with a dog thinking he was receiving a correction from his master, and not related with decoy pressure or even pain.I never had seen another dog making better than A´tim under that amount of pressure and even pain, on a similar test and not being even prepared to it as is obvious for me your dog was not. An awesome dog will allways receive negative comments and people will be looking for some holes on that kind of dogs.

For me this 1st attempt is more valuable about the quality of A'tim than the korung 3 title by itself, i like Great dogs like yours more than good training.

I am an A´tim Big fan and also i have a 7 months old grand daughter from him and as you can see no matters that i can be very objective on my comments.

Congratulations for A´tim contribution to the malinois quality, and congratulations to you and your husbands contribution to the working dog arena.

Sincerely

Cesar A. Flores Dueñas


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## andreas broqvist

ok thank you.maby chris can put up the on of the 1st agan. now we can look at both


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## Martine Loots

Cesar A. Flores Dueñas said:


> First of all thanks for give us a First hand response
> 
> *On the video that we saw, i dont know if the order of the atttacks were right, Is a fact A'tim hesitate on the first attack and get back from the decoy when he make pressure with bottles i thing filled with stones, of course the dog recovers from the event and bite, that was a defensive bite not a Full bite typical from ATim.*
> 
> 
> Sincerely
> 
> Cesar A. Flores Dueñas


I think you are talking about the defence here  (see my explanation in the post above)


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## Martine Loots

For the second Körung, an impartial FR decoy was invited to perform the attacks.
After the test, he came over to us to congratulate us for such a dog. 
His words: "this dog wasn't coming for the suit. He was coming for ME. He took me down and grabbed me (which hurt as he was wearing a FR suit...) and the more I tried to escape from his grip and the harder I hit him, the more he insisted."


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## Drew Peirce

Wonderful to have you here martine, he's an amazing dog, certainly history will show him as one of the greatest ever.
To be honest it was very difficult to watch the video, because all I could think the whole time is how it would be me attacking the decoy instead of my dog, seriously.


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## James Downey

Drew Peirce said:


> Wonderful to have you here martine, he's an amazing dog, certainly history will show him as one of the greatest ever.
> To be honest it was very difficult to watch the video, because all I could think the whole time is how it would be me attacking the decoy instead of my dog, seriously.


 
I think it's not sad to watch this. No matter what the reason A'tim did what he did that day, He has proven himself ten fold over. Michael Jordan had bad days....thank god phil was not as hard on him as some people were here on A'tim. Otherwise the Bulls may not had thier dynasty. 


That's pretty much the only negative thing I have seen about A'tim. And that seems to be suspect.

I have seen tons of great things about A'tim though. 

I think the beauty in this is that one impression is not the only impression. And that even the best dog can have an off day. I think all our dogs have had those days...the camera had been rolling that day for A'tim. So feel blessed if your dog had a bad day, and it's just between a few people and not the world. 

But back onto A'tim and his success.

Here's another dog that A'tim produced that's not to shabby.

http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs_details.php?id=56286&new_lan_en


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## Timothy Saunders

Martine, thanks for coming on and clearing up some of the misunderstandings, see you soon.

Tim


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## James Degale

Very good explanation. Thank you. 

I still cannot find the video of the Koerung 2nd attempt. Can someone help?


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## Martine Loots

James Downey said:


> thank god phil was not as hard on him as some people were here on A'tim.


Well, that's life. 
Iif people are talking a lot about yr dog, no matter positive or negative, this means that he's worth talking about :mrgreen: . And there will always be jealousy.
As far as we're concerned, we couldn't care less about negative comments.
If I have a dog, _I'm perfectly able myself to judge his qualities_ and as long as I'm satisfied, I don't care about what others say.
This also goes in the opposite sense. If I have a dog and I know he's not perfect, then he doesn't stay, no matter how many times other people say how nice he is.



James Downey said:


> I think the beauty in this is that one impression is not the only impression. And that even the best dog can have an off day. I think all our dogs have had those days...the camera had been rolling that day for A'tim. So feel blessed if your dog had a bad day, and it's just between a few people and not the world.


He didn't have an off day. He was doing exactly what he was trained for.
A dog is no computer and it's very easy for a human being to make him fail, if you know how he has been trained.
In a boxing ring the 2 competitors will stop punching when the referee interrupts the game. Does the fact that they don't go on and knock the other one out mean that they have an off day? No, they're just following their rules, just like A'Tim did that day.



James Downey said:


> Here's another dog that A'tim produced that's not to shabby.
> 
> http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs_details.php?id=56286&new_lan_en


Darka is a great dog indeed and I always enjoy Danny's updates on her


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## Martine Loots

James Degale said:


> Very good explanation. Thank you.
> 
> I still cannot find the video of the Koerung 2nd attempt. Can someone help?


 Just checked myself and there only are pictures of the K3 in Tim's web album...
I have the video's at home on my computer. I'll upload them and paste a link here.
Will be "next year" though" :mrgreen:


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## Gerry Grimwood

Martine Loots said:


> If I have a dog and I know he's not perfect, then he doesn't stay, no matter how many times other people say how nice he is.


I didn't even know who A'Tim was before this thread, but are you saying he is a perfect dog ?


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## Martine Loots

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I didn't even know who A'Tim was before this thread, but are you saying he is a perfect dog ?


"Perfection" in the strict meaning of the word, doesn't exist. Not in people, not in animals, not in objects.

What I mean by "a perfect dog" is "a dog that suits ME perfectly and answers to the qualities I'm looking for in a dog":

- Clear in the head
- loyal & reliable
- brave, confident
- powerful
- good grips
- athletic
- healthy body

Ans yes, he answers to this and so do my other dogs.
When it's about judging a dog's qualities, results in the trials don't count for me, because this also depends a lot on good training and experience of the handler. It's the real character that counts.


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## Gerry Grimwood

Thank you for that reply.

I'm always suprised at some peoples negative response when you ask them a direct question about their dogs. You are not in that category.

I didn't get a chance to see the original video posted, but I have looked at some others and Tim looks like a really good dog.


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## Martine Loots

To make it very clear what the defence in BR is like, watch it in this video.
Here you see very clearly how the dog is provoked but not allowed to bite until the decoy actually "touches" the handler to attack.
I guess you understand the dog's "confusion" now with the defence of K3 1st attempt, and how this exercise was in complete contradiction to the way he was trained 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDoQ1_JJE5A


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## Cesar A. Flores Dueñas

Video Uploaded Again

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-emBLEj9Ow8


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