# Reading dogs while decoying



## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rCL8EbdVuo&feature=plcp

I'm no expert but I think the guy should have stopped after the dog backed away the first time. Not a dog i'd breed to but from the dog's initial reaction it seems he could do decent sport work with less pressure....any opinions?O


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

That sucks...that horrible feeling that you may have skipped a few steps...and might not be able to recover...


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

That dog was in flight for sure. Seems the helper came on way to strong, too soon. He's using a rag so that leads one to believe the dog doesn't have much experience. I'd say the helper was trying to impress himself, and the dog seems to be lacking a bit of courage. Not a good combination!


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Geez its a wonder they put that on the net, love to know what the hell they were talkin about.

Hope the poor dog recovers.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

The dog showed very well at first. This is what you get when too much defense is put on a dog too early. The dog never got a bite to end on a good note. That is what the dog will remember. He got his butt kicked.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Jerry Lyda said:


> The dog showed very well at first. This is what you get when too much defense is put on a dog too early. The dog never got a bite to end on a good note. That is what the dog will remember. He got his butt kicked.


So Jerry can a dog dig its way out again, or is permanently etched???

I know YOU wouldn't get a dog to that point but what would you to get it out??


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Back up and make it fun for him and let him win. This dog CAN recover.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Glad the trainer had the sense to stop it.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Yeah.. Dog got screwed on that one.

I dont think the guy should have stopped sooner though, or stopped when he did, he should have changed his tactics, to bring the dog back up, left him in a bad spot.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

A bite rag isn't supposed to be a weapon :-(
Nice dog though. I hope he finds a decent decoy to work with.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Some of you guys really think this dog started off good? Really? You couldn't hear the stressed rapid barking? You couldn't see the dog was not pulling forward? 

This dog was stressed from the start. IMO, the helper should have run away and allowed the dog to chase him at about the 5 second mark.

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

A lot of training sh*t canned in a fraction of a second. WTF!

I agree Chris. Still, the dog is what he is. He was trained to get to that point and now it's been compromised. He's not a world beater but he coulda been used for something besides processing food.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

makes me wanna puke
only one of the three bodies in that vid has any potential and it aint the 2 humans ](*,)

the rag man should stick to snappin his buddies in the shower room :-(

but prob a GREAT vid of how dogs can and do get screwed up.....in 50secs or less 

working with a nice nut case gsd that prob started out the same way ](*,)


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## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

probably another decoy that also thinks he should get credit as "trainer" of the dog.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> This dog was stressed from the start. IMO, the helper should have run away and allowed the dog to chase him at about the 5 second mark.
> Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk


Agreed.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> Some of you guys really think this dog started off good? Really? You couldn't hear the stressed rapid barking? You couldn't see the dog was not pulling forward?
> 
> This dog was stressed from the start. IMO, the helper should have run away and allowed the dog to chase him at about the 5 second mark.
> 
> Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk


You must be looking at a different video?
This looked like a young dog. I thought the bark was fairly deep not excessively rapid and the dog held his ground and even tried to go forward a little. UNTIL the decoy snapped the rag at him half way through the clip (~25 seconds). Then the decoy just kept adding pressure with no chance for the dog to win/recover


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Too much pressure is right but too much pressure way before he snaps the rag, in my opinion. 12 seconds in, first time we see the decoy's foot in the frame, the dog has already begun to backpedal. The correct move would have been for the decoy to back up and run away after the dog's initial bark, (as he did once, and we see the dog move forward which is good, but he should have continued to do this then stopped there with this young dog) instead he advances forward on the dog, a big mistake with a very unsure dog.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

As to whether or not this dog could make a decent sport dog or not, I'm not good enough to make that call based on a few seconds of video.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

This dog is in defense from the start and was most likely has always been trained in defense. When trained in defense the dog is stressed, that's what defense does. Maybe this dog will make it, who knows but I do know if this continues with out him winning he will be Bar-B-Q. I agree with Thomas. I too saw the dog go forward until popped with the rag


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## Gerald Dunn (Sep 24, 2011)

17 reply's and 17 ways to do it, who said inquiring mines don't think the same ](*,)


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> Too much pressure is right but too much pressure way before he snaps the rag, in my opinion. 12 seconds in, first time we see the decoy's foot in the frame, the dog has already begun to backpedal. The correct move would have been for the decoy to back up and run away after the dog's initial bark, (as he did once, and we see the dog move forward which is good, but he should have continued to do this then stopped there with this young dog) instead he advances forward on the dog, a big mistake with a very unsure dog.


Sue, you obviously need to be doing seminars in Colorado. :smile:


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Gerald Dunn said:


> 17 reply's and 17 ways to do it, who said inquiring mines don't think the same ](*,)




17 ways? Everyone on this thread agrees that the training is not that good on the video.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Sue plus Colorado? Count me in. :smile:


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> Sue, you obviously need to be doing seminars in Colorado. :smile:



Sorry Sue but everyone in Colorado is waiting for a Chris Smith
seminar. He's the best there is. At least that's what he'd like us to believe. LMAO
As far as "backpedaling at 12 seconds" ? I saw a slight settling back on the hind legs and maybe a little side movement. A decent decoy might have reacted but the dog was still doing OK at this point.


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

They are not training for a sport, and they totally meant to work him that way, the woman behind the camera is instructing the handler to "hold the dog really tight so he cannot take a step backwards, let him choke himself if you must, but don't let him go backwards at all, hold him by the collar" 

I don't think the session was done, either.

PPD, maybe.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Anna I'm with you. No one, that had any salt about him, would leave a dog that way. The dog started out great and IMO that's not the first time that dog has been worked that way. The short clip leaves us in doubt about that particular session.

I just hate defense training until I know the dog can take it and then he is shown defense and then backed back out into prey. Alway always ends on a good note and the dog wins. We didn't see the whole clip so we don't know how it ended.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Anna you understand russian language??


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Anna Kasho said:


> They are not training for a sport, and they totally meant to work him that way, the woman behind the camera is instructing the handler to "hold the dog really tight so he cannot take a step backwards, let him choke himself if you must, but don't let him go backwards at all, hold him by the collar"
> 
> I don't think the session was done, either.
> 
> PPD, maybe.


What makes you think they're not training for sport (IPO)?
The other videos posted by the same user show a lot of sleeve work, Hold and Barks and blind searches. Looks like sport to me.
Not reading or understanding Russian it's hard to say what all the
videos are about.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I think it's pretty obvious they were working the dog in defense, nobody disagrees about that, just as nobody disagrees that a dog worked in defense is being stressed. 

This dog should NOT have been worked in defense, and I doubt very much he was "always worked in defense" judging from his reaction (showing insecurity from the start every time the decoy moved forward). Of course this becomes even more evident later in the video when the dog actually tries to hide behind the handler and cut and run after decoy snaps the rag. 

The issue is reading the dog. It NEVER should have reached that stage. If the decoy were a better decoy he would have read the more subtle signals way before, and moved the dog into prey. Unless he was purposely trying to cow the dog - which he did.

If the handler were a better handler she would have kicked the decoys ass for what he did to her dog.

Thomas I looked at the other videos and I saw sport training too.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Sorry Sue but everyone in Colorado is waiting for a Chris Smith
> seminar. He's the best there is. At least that's what he'd like us to believe. LMAO


It just seems that way to you 'cause I'm so much better than you. :razz: You'll be ready for a Christopher Smith seminar when you stop by the proctologist for your rectal/cranial separation. 




> As far as "backpedaling at 12 seconds" ? I saw a slight settling back on the hind legs and maybe a little side movement. A decent decoy might have reacted but the dog was still doing OK at this point.


I didn't say that the dog wasn't doing OK at first. I said the dog was *stressed *from the beginning and that helper failed to read the dog. A good helper could have made that session OK. But this decoy lacks that skill or simply screwed up on that session. Either way, shit happens and if you haven't screwed up some dogs, you can't be a good helper.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Anna Kasho said:


> They are not training for a sport, and they totally meant to work him that way, the woman behind the camera is instructing the handler to "hold the dog really tight so he cannot take a step backwards, let him choke himself if you must, but don't let him go backwards at all, hold him by the collar"
> 
> I don't think the session was done, either.
> 
> PPD, maybe.


What leads you to believe that this is not sport training?


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

There was not a single designer vest with the gsd logo on it, cant be sport.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> There was not a single designer vest with the gsd logo on it, cant be sport.


Maybe they had to send them out to have their magical properties recharged?


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Thats how I can get my dogs noses on the ground when tracking, I will wear the vest.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I'm sorta surprised you guys think this is a strong enough dog to work. Dumb ass decoy and handler for sure. That's a helluva rag--stiff leather? 


T


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## Martin Espericueta (Apr 1, 2006)

Edward Egan said:


> That dog was in flight for sure. Seems the helper came on way to strong, too soon. He's using a rag so that leads one to believe the dog doesn't have much experience. I'd say the helper was trying to impress himself, and the dog seems to be lacking a bit of courage. Not a good combination!


My thoughts exactly. If I were that dogs handler, I'd of been PISSED!!!!!

Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk 2


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## Martin Espericueta (Apr 1, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> Agreed.



Double agree.
Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk 2


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Olu...
just to show you how pointless it can be to ask 4 opinions of a 50sec clip ...
i gave one without thinking much about what was being shown... it might be valid or not

here's another :
if they were testing and not training, maybe they were trying to decide whether the dog was worth keeping and were giving it another chance to handle pressure 
...maybe neither idiot owned owned the dog
...maybe the rag man was the owner and his dog was embarrassing him in front of the girls
//// now we can debate how dumb the test was and how to properly evaluate dogs
...on second thought.....i'll just stick to my first impression 

but for some reason the girl looks like i've seen her with dogs b4.....have you ever posted others from this same youtube list ??

for me i'd rather learn more about hovawarts....before i joined this list i thought that was a skin condition, not a dog breed

who knows...who cares; but tx for posting 
my youtube request :
please find some more hyenas strutting their stuff with the africans...i really enjoy watching those guys


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie;338194[B said:


> ]I'm sorta surprised you guys think this is a strong enough dog to work.[/B] Dumb ass decoy and handler for sure. That's a helluva rag--stiff leather?
> T


Why are you surprised, do you think?

With what was shown here, it is really hard to make a judgement (at least for me) on the dog, aside from saying he not a out of the box SUPER DOG. (the cape did not come in the box with the dog)

No one knows its true age, its maturity, its previous training, if any, and for sure this exposure to this type of thing was not done well at all, so who knows what the other work with him may have been like if there was some.

Many dogs, even strong ones can react like that, to work like that, if not properly prepared for it. That guy got in the dogs head, and never got back out of it...dog got screwed in that round, that is all I can say for sure.


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

I think the dog kind of gets a bad rap here. The dog is standing on ice, he tries to come forward first and loses his footing. He tries again just before the rag slap and the same thing happen , no time to recover and then he went into flight.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

rick smith said:


> Olu...
> just to show you how pointless it can be to ask 4 opinions of a 50sec clip ...
> i gave one without thinking much about what was being shown... it might be valid or not
> 
> ...


The reason i asked is because i've seen puppies do better in similar scenarios. Certainly the dog had a low threshold for defense.
If it was trained differently, without defense work it could have been mistaken for a very good dog, seemed he had great desire for the rag before the decoy started going bananas........ i wanted to ask a follow up question of how important defense work is for sport trainers especially dogs that are intended for breeding. I will never forget a 'strong IPO' dog that had insane grips and super fast strikes on the courage tests but would cower in his cage.
I wanted to ask if people feel its important to test for environmental sureness and ability to handle defensive stress or its just okay to breed if it bites like a gator on the field:|


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> The reason i asked is because i've seen puppies do better in similar scenarios. Certainly the dog had a low threshold for defense.
> If it was trained differently, without defense work it could have been mistaken for a very good dog, seemed he had great desire for the rag before the decoy started going bananas........ i wanted to ask a follow up question of how important defense work is for sport trainers especially dogs that are intended for breeding. I will never forget a 'strong IPO' dog that had insane grips and super fast strikes on the courage tests but would cower in his cage.
> I wanted to ask if people feel its important to test for environmental sureness and ability to handle defensive stress or its just okay to breed if it bites like a gator on the field:|



Without "environmental sureness" and the ability to handle defensive stress I have no use for a dog. Just me of course! ;-)


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

sorry, i didn't quite get that your Q's were related to breeding even tho you did state it that way 

i'm sure not a breeder and i respect good breeders a LOT more than i respect good trainers, but that is way above my "pay grade"......my thoughts on breeding is that every time you dump a litter out into the world you could be adding hundreds of dog years to the canine gene pool if the litter is a big one, and that carries a LOT of responsibility
- the professional horse people seem to breed responsibly, and i may be wrong, but i thought i heard that since 1875 only twelve Kentucky Derby winners ever sired another derby winner, and there's surely been lots of "horse spunk" sold over the years to a lot of hopeful buyers 

just look at the working dog breeders web sites ... no breeder would ever admit to a "breeding for biting" only philosophy, but i'm sure they are out there somewhere too ...it's a big world :-(


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> The reason i asked is because i've seen puppies do better in similar scenarios. Certainly the dog had a low threshold for defense.
> If it was trained differently, without defense work it could have been mistaken for a very good dog, seemed he had great desire for the rag before the decoy started going bananas........ i wanted to ask a follow up question of how important defense work is for sport trainers especially dogs that are intended for breeding. I will never forget a 'strong IPO' dog that had insane grips and super fast strikes on the courage tests but would cower in his cage.
> I wanted to ask if people feel its important to test for environmental sureness and ability to handle defensive stress or its just okay to breed if it bites like a gator on the field:|


 
IMO, too many technical terms... 

I want to see a dog actively seeking to engage, whether there is sleeve, no sleeve, suit, no suit... Breaking down a dog's temperament in terms of drives (only) is too simplistic, imo. So, basically, what I want to see is the willingness to engage...If that makes sense.

The dog in the video, is, in my humble opinion, weak. 


Regards


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> I will never forget a 'strong IPO' dog that had insane grips and super fast strikes on the courage tests but would cower in his cage.


Who are you quoting? 

If it cowers in the cage it's not a strong IPO dog. Dogs like that simply can't take the stresses of being in the type of trials that would prove him to be a "strong IPO" dog.


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

I would be interested in knowing the name of this "strong IPO dog"... A strong dog is strong, period. 

Perhaps he is referring to a nice/flashy conditioned dog on the field? 

Got me confused also.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Christopher Smith said:


> Who are you quoting?
> 
> If it cowers in the cage it's not a strong IPO dog. Dogs like that simply can't take the stresses of being in the type of trials that would prove him to be a "strong IPO" dog.


I'm not quoting anyone,,, the dog was brought in from holland, IPO3....I was impressed with him on the first day, he held the sleeve so hard decoy couldn't move on the escape bite. I asked if i could decoy him and the dog refused to engage...now this may be funny but i think its cos i'm dark skinned and its never worked a black decoy. That was pretty disappointing, after that some visitors came over to look at the dog in the kennel and it cowered also tucking its tail in.
The dog acts different on the field, superb prey drive for the sleeve. I've seen more than one dog act like this. I'm not quoting someone.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> I'm not quoting anyone,,, the dog was brought in from holland, IPO3....I was impressed with him on the first day, he held the sleeve so hard decoy couldn't move on the escape bite. I asked if i could decoy him and the dog refused to engage...now this may be funny but i think its cos i'm dark skinned and its never worked a black decoy. That was pretty disappointing, after that some visitors came over to look at the dog in the kennel and it cowered also tucking its tail in.
> The dog acts different on the field, superb prey drive for the sleeve. I've seen more than one dog act like this. I'm not quoting someone.


Obi,

Sounds like the dog was conditioned to only white decoys?
I remember years ago Armin Winkler was working with a National Schutzhund Team and just put on a right arm sleeve and the dogs were confused. Based on the limited information you've provided I'd say the dog was worked with a LOT of pressure and defense and had the LIVING CRAP BEAT OUT OF HIM on more then one occasion :-(
Probably would have been a much different dog if trained differently


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## Tim Lynam (Jun 12, 2009)

"Subject: Reading dogs while decoying"

Score: 0 out of 100

Your lack of situational awareness set this dog back big time. I'm not surprised you've "Seen this in more than one dog." Doing the same thing and expecting different results is futile. No need to judge the dog in the 50 second clip, 50 seconds of decoy work like that speaks volumes about the results. 

Find a good training director and training decoy and apprentice with them for a while. Keep at it. It'll come!


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## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> Without "environmental sureness" and the ability to handle defensive stress I have no use for a dog. Just me of course! ;-)


I agree 100%!

I had a dog who showed lots of temperment, social, and environmentally sound, but he could also be serious in the work when pressured. I think its super easy and fun to train a dog who can easily "shift drives" or whatever you want to call it... Shifting gears? :smile: And from what ive learned from my TD, train'em so that they only know how to perform at 100% (while shifting gears). 

A friend of a friend- of a friend had another dog who had relatively thin nerves, suspicious of everyone, he was a 2 person dog and just a pushy sumbitch, but I heard this dog would bite for real, and i also heard hes a big pain in the ass. He reminded me of something like a jr high bully because he was insecure as hell, you could just see it in his eyes darting back/forth.


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> I'm not quoting anyone,,, the dog was brought in from holland, IPO3....I was impressed with him on the first day, he held the sleeve so hard decoy couldn't move on the escape bite. I asked if i could decoy him and the dog refused to engage...now this may be funny but i think its cos i'm dark skinned and its never worked a black decoy. That was pretty disappointing, after that some visitors came over to look at the dog in the kennel and it cowered also tucking its tail in.
> The dog acts different on the field, superb prey drive for the sleeve. I've seen more than one dog act like this. I'm not quoting someone.


This is not the first time I've heard this. A couple of years ago we were visiting a club (don't remember where) and a trainer/breeder was hanging on the side of the field w/ us just "shooting the breeze." He stated that he has seen a dog that normally bites like a monster, clam up and not engage a decoy because he was dark skinned. They figured it out w/ a simple test and realized why the dog was "concerned." I've heard this more than once, in more than one training setting. No big deal. It's not common, but it has occurred. You just work the dog through it, so it learns its ok to bite whatever you tell him. But its not surprising at all.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Zakia Days said:


> This is not the first time I've heard this. A couple of years ago we were visiting a club (don't remember where) and a trainer/breeder was hanging on the side of the field w/ us just "shooting the breeze." He stated that he has seen a dog that normally bites like a monster, clam up and not engage a decoy because he was dark skinned. They figured it out w/ a simple test and realized why the dog was "concerned." I've heard this more than once, in more than one training setting. No big deal. It's not common, but it has occurred. You just work the dog through it, so it learns its ok to bite whatever you tell him. But its not surprising at all.


I have decoyed quite a few PP competitions, some in the inner city of Chicago, several where I was one of only a couple white people in attendence. 

I have encountered more than a couple dogs that had major trouble biting me, in part I think, because I was white, they did not have the trouble with the black decoys.

When talking to the handlers afterwards, I heard more than a few times, that the dogs had never been worked on a white decoy.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Joby

It doesn't matter if the decoy is black or white. It matters if he's different from what the dogs used to working with.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Joby
> 
> It doesn't matter if the decoy is black or white. It matters if he's different from what the dogs used to working with.


no kidding.. I thought that is what I was saying...


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

I just said it better.


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## Jehane Michael Le Grange (Feb 24, 2009)

Really not a great demonstration of helper work or reading the dog at all. Definitely messed up a dog that showed a lot of potential. 

I would have liked to have seen the dog's prey drive first though to decide whether defense was the route to go. I would imaging judging by the size of the dog and the fact that the helper used a rag, the dog was not showing much prey drive, so they decided to bring it out in defense. It appeared to show super confidence and aggression going forward in the beginning but I have no idea what so ever as to what the helper was doing when he hit the dog. Even the "banging" of the rag was OTT.

when I decide to bring a dog out more on the defense side, due to its prey drive not being sufficient, I first stick the dog out between two other dogs that are "experienced campaigners" and agitate them. This dog showed plenty of aggression without having other dogs present so imagine how much more he could show. Also by actually seeing the other dogs bite, he will learn that biting relieves the pressure as opposed to just being whacked with the object he is supposed to bite and having to figure it out for himself. 

I would bet that after 3-4 3min sessions alongside biting dogs, this dog will be killing the arm. I have taken dogs that don't even look at the helper to that point in 5 sessions without even touching the dog or showing that much threat. Helper also needs to be very responsive to the dogs behaviour. Every time the dog shows aggression, barks or moves forward the helper should do an exaggerated retreat not just keep coming and coming and coming. Next few sessions, start presenting and running passed, but give the other dogs a bite. and then when the dog is really lunging for the arm or rag, give a bite, light tug and win.

Wish I could have filmed this young showline dog I am currently training. 3 sessions ago, she stood and yawned, now shes pulling and lunging towards me when I am still 15meters away from here and barking a lot simply from watching the others. She has to be dragged off the field, so keen is her interest. I still haven't given her a bite even though she will clearly bite. I just give miss, miss, miss and then put her away. Short and intense!

Interested in what the other trainers think about my idea. Constructive criticism always welcome


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## Jehane Michael Le Grange (Feb 24, 2009)

With regards to dogs not wanting to engage on a different coloured helper, I think its perhaps more an instance of the dog not being used to biting on someone different as opposed to a race thing. I have never personally had this issue. I think if its a really well developed and trained dog with the right attitude towards protection work, it should kill any helper


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

The helper threatened the dog - the rag isn't important. At the stage when the dog came forward, the helper should have retreated.

However, whether the dog can be "healed" or not is difficult to say. The handler even "kissed" it for its performance.

Maybe if she had had the guts to hold it on the lead herself and let it advance to the helper, remains to be seen.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Jehane Michael Le Grange said:


> With regards to dogs not wanting to engage on a different coloured helper, I think its perhaps more an instance of the dog not being used to biting on someone different as opposed to a race thing. I have never personally had this issue. I think if its a really well developed and trained dog with the right attitude towards protection work, it should kill any helper


I have also seen dogs that had trouble biting women if not exposed to them. Not saying they were that good of dogs though 

The dogs I worked that had trouble biting me (I'm white), had no issues biting 3 other decoys, (that were black). Not saying those were that good of dogs either


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Jehane Michael Le Grange said:


> when I decide to bring a dog out more on the defense side, due to its prey drive not being sufficient, I first stick the dog out between two other dogs that are "experienced campaigners" and agitate them. This dog showed plenty of aggression without having other dogs present so imagine how much more he could show. Also by actually seeing the other dogs bite, he will learn that biting relieves the pressure as opposed to just being whacked with the object he is supposed to bite and having to figure it out for himself.
> 
> I would bet that after 3-4 3min sessions alongside biting dogs, this dog will be killing the arm. I have taken dogs that don't even look at the helper to that point in 5 sessions without even touching the dog or showing that much threat. Helper also needs to be very responsive to the dogs behaviour. Every time the dog shows aggression, barks or moves forward the helper should do an exaggerated retreat not just keep coming and coming and coming. Next few sessions, start presenting and running passed, but give the other dogs a bite. and then when the dog is really lunging for the arm or rag, give a bite, light tug and win.
> 
> ...


Sounds good to me, used to do that when I was training alot of presa canario's, from a specific line, that was light on the prey side.

If working only one dog, starting defense, I start at a good distance, and work in close over a coupla sessions, usually down a wooded path or something like that..let dog chase away then...depending on the dogs responses..

sometimes even a bite on the first session, if the dog showed strong repsonses.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Obi,
> 
> Sounds like the dog was conditioned to only white decoys?
> I remember years ago Armin Winkler was working with a National Schutzhund Team and just put on a right arm sleeve and the dogs were confused. Based on the limited information you've provided I'd say the dog was worked with a LOT of pressure and defense and had the LIVING CRAP BEAT OUT OF HIM on more then one occasion :-(
> Probably would have been a much different dog if trained differently


You're right about him being conditioned to white decoys but i believe the concept of 'strong nerves' means the dog can face challenges it hasn't experienced in the past especially for an IPO3 dog that was at least 2 years old.
About him being maltreated, i seriously doubt that. The owner is a very respectable breeder. The dog's mum was the first dog i eve decoyed and she was still strong at 13, she had no issues with me. I even petted her after decoying.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> You're right about him being conditioned to white decoys but i believe the concept of 'strong nerves' means the dog can face challenges it hasn't experienced in the past especially for an IPO3 dog that was at least 2 years old.
> About him being maltreated, i seriously doubt that. The owner is a very respectable breeder. The dog's mum was the first dog i eve decoyed and she was still strong at 13, she had no issues with me. I even petted her after decoying.


Not knowing the dog myself. I"ll take your word for him not being mistreated. I've seen young dogs cower because of temperament. Usually if a dog gets to IPO III they don't cower in their crates unless they've been given a reason?


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