# SAR & SchH?



## Aly Johnson

I have a 7 month GSD pup currently in training for Schutzhund. At some point, if possible, I'd like to do SAR with him. Does anyone have experience training a dog in both disciplines? Should I begin the SAR training now, or wait? Is it even advisable to try and do both with one dog? Any help or suggestions would be appreciated!


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## Nancy Jocoy

I have no experience training a dog in both disciplines and our team does not allow that anyway and I would not have time to do both even if I wanted to. 

Regardless of what anyone thinks, the team will make the calls on that unless you decide to start your own team. Then if there is a state SAR council (as VA has) you need to know where they stand.


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## Maren Bell Jones

I'm interested in this as well as the Missouri TF-1 training site is like 5 minutes from my house (assuming I don't move soon?) and my dog isn't lacking in hunt drive. Particularly after working in Joplin for two days and going back again tomorrow for another two, this has me thinking... :-k


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## Jennifer Michelson

You can probably do a search and get a bunch of old threads on this topic.

Basically, I dont have a problem with it, but lots of folks do. A bite trained dog can be a liability. You need to find teams in your area and find out what their protocols are.

You need to find a schutzhund trainer/club that understands how to work your dog (only in prey) in a way that doesnt damage the SAR training. Sar has to be the priority because it is about saving a life, it is not a sport

You also need to be very honest with yourself and your dog. Does it have the temperament to do both and can you train both?

My guess that most USAR teams have less of a problem with a bite trained dog than wilderness teams. 

good luck


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## Jennifer Coulter

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I'm interested in this as well as the Missouri TF-1 training site is like 5 minutes from my house (assuming I don't move soon?) and my dog isn't lacking in hunt drive. Particularly after working in Joplin for two days and going back again tomorrow for another two, this has me thinking... :-k


I am going to stray a bit off topic here....

Our program will not assess dogs over two years of age. It is a process to get to certification, and dogs can break down quick if the work is hard. So, they don't want to take on a 4 year old dog, have it take 2 years to certify, then it is 6 years old, and is operational for only a couple of years before retirement. A lot of resources go into training a dog, and they want it to be operational for a good amount of time.

Not sure if groups near you might be the same. Not sure how old your dog is either. Just something to check into....


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## Jennifer Coulter

Aly Johnson said:


> I have a 7 month GSD pup currently in training for Schutzhund. At some point, if possible, I'd like to do SAR with him. Does anyone have experience training a dog in both disciplines? Should I begin the SAR training now, or wait? Is it even advisable to try and do both with one dog? Any help or suggestions would be appreciated!


Like it has been said, you have to find out what the rules of your group would be, find out if you and your dog are suitable, and figure out if you have the time to commit to both.

I would start the SAR stuff right away if a SAR dog was my goal, if I had the dog I would not wait.


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## will fernandez

Just a suggestion....One dog per discipline or at the least one discipline at a time until you have more experience.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Not a bad suggestion, Will. Some activities go well with cross training. Some just don't. In my experience, doing both PSA and herding is not very complementary and can be conflicting (person with stick should be ignored in PSA, person with stick should be respected in herding), whereas PSA and dock diving are fine together. I've just been throwing the idea around is all and as I am hopefully moving, probably not something I'd do as I don't commit to doing things lightly. Though I would be content enough just to help address the medical needs of the SAR dogs.


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## Aly Johnson

Thanks for the advice everyone. SchH was always my first priority with this dog, I'd hoped to add SAR to that later on, but it sounds like that probably won't be possible. We're both having fun with what we do already, so I'll just stick to that and enjoy it.


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## Joby Becker

not all dogs take working sch as a sleeve only game, even with a good helper trying to work in prey only...the dogs temperament may take him another way on its own...

not a great idea in my book.....


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## Bob Scott

I've done both with the same dog and wouldn't do it again.
Schutzhund is a sport and SAR is all about reality. 
I think the seriousness of SAR should take all your time "IF" you have the right dog, "IF" you find a good SAR group, "IF" they accept you and your dog.


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## John Haudenshield

aLY,
As others have said:
1) If the SAR Team you're assoc with allows it.
2) If you have the knowledge, time & proficiency to train both to an acceptable level (namingly SAR).

It can be done, but there are many factors that go into making that decision. If you're relatively new to either, I'd pick one & go with it. Biggest newby mistake is to try to do everything with one dog, b/c you end up not doing anything very well or not accomplishing any one goal b/c your spreading yourself too thin.
I think you're wise to go with your initial interest, at least for now.
John


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## will fernandez

will fernandez said:


> Just a suggestion....One dog per discipline or at the least one discipline at a time until you have more experience.


The reason I said this is because most newbies overestimate the quality of their dogs and underestimate the commitment that is necessary for one discipline. 

As a K9 handler I would love to have one dog for tracking, another for narcotics, and one for searching and apprehensions. I would much rather have my k9 do its one job extremely well as opposed to just well.


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## Nancy Jocoy

The main thing I would add is that I have seen some folks say "what they don't know won't hurt them"......Since our team's liability insurance already runs over 2K a year .........Most teams NEED to know

That and the concern that if an incident does occur with a dog TRAINED to bite (all arguments for and against aside)....the press and the general public could have such a field day with it that it could destroy a team that took years to build. {Of course any bite could do that anyway which is why there is ZERO tolerance for human agression on most teams}

Our lack of bite-trained dogs is one of the selling points to departments who don't want to run a patrol dog on missing granny.

My own dog only does cadaver. When he gets out of the truck that is the only thing on his mind.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Nancy, do you think they'd be more open to protection sport trained dogs doing cadaver instead of live find? Just curious...


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## Nancy Jocoy

It *completely *depends on the team. I have typically seen the most concern experessed about offlead airscent dogs where they are often out of visual range of the handler. 

There the concern is someone breaking and running and the question will the dog revert to its original training. Yes you can call the dog off but not if you can't see it. 

Don't shoot the messenger; that is how it was explained to me.


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## Maren Bell Jones

No worries, was just for my curiosity. :wink: Thanks!


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## Sandra King

Aly Johnson said:


> Thanks for the advice everyone. SchH was always my first priority with this dog, I'd hoped to add SAR to that later on, but it sounds like that probably won't be possible. We're both having fun with what we do already, so I'll just stick to that and enjoy it.


Are you talking about SAR or the IRO Style RH (rettungshunde) Title? 

In Germany it's not an issue at all. The current SchH Bundessieger has the RH 1 Title meaning he's a SAR dog too 
However, RH is also a Sport and you can go that route and sport venue just as much as you can do it with SchH but I believe RH is not as common over here as it's over there, if you find any club that offers the RH at all.


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## Nancy Jocoy

A dog with an RH1 has passed tests specific to that title but not sure I would accept passing those tests as meaningful for an operational SAR dog. 

I was assuming the OP was talking about actually doing SAR but perhaps it was just the "title" which is not accepted by any certifying agency.


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## Sandra King

I guess it depends if they are doing "just" the sport or are actually operational dogs with RH Teams like the Red Cross. 

I do like the IRO for the uniformity and wished it was the same in the States without those thousand of different organizations, federations and testing styles. It'd make things so much easier if you'd have one certification process for the entire country.


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## Nancy Jocoy

There is no such thing as a Red Cross Search Dog in the United States. And FEMA has its own certifications for disaster dogs.

While there is no single certification process, every last one of them can fit within the NIMS credentialing buckets so there is "some" level of standardization due to that.

I think they would nationally standardize police dogs before they do SAR dogs.


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## Sandra King

Too bad that you don't have them over here in the States. We have them in Germany 
https://www.drk.de/alt/rettungshunde/

Well, I guess before they standardize the dog certification they should standardize the drivers license first. :mrgreen:


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## Melody Greba

Besides the well founded warnings regarding schutzhund and SAR, there is more to add. Schutzhund and SAR is often very complimentary in the training. Schutzhund offers a great deal of drive building, discipline, and alot of the exercises b/t SAR and sch coorespond to one another. 

There are several schutzhund dogs doing real SAR. My FEMA Type 1 K9 has excellent "b & c" phase foundation. He also has his RH1 sport title(the RH1 is only a sport title). We have another team on our Task Force that has their Sch2 and will be testing for their CE this year. One of our retired K9 teams was Sch3 and Type 1.

Both disciplines should be considered extreme disciplines. Many people do not have the lifestyles that allows them to participate in both. Sometimes you have to chose one or the other. Doing a little bit of both isn't committing to either. 

And Nancy is right about knowing the restrictions of the laws and SAR teams in your area, sometimes that will determine what you can do. But not all teams restrict schutzhund sport dogs from being SAR dogs. This combination is not as unique as some think.


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## Aly Johnson

Thanks Melody. Everyone has given good advice, I may contact my local group to see what the rulings are. I plan to do SAR one way or another, we have a local equine SAR team that I looked into joining as well, so I guess if it turns out I can do it with the dog, I can always do it with the horse!


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## Charlotte Grove

I am a newbie to the SAR world, just about ready to certify my first SAR dog within the next month or so. I got my start working with dogs in SchH and the dog that is ready to certify for wilderness SAR is also titled to a SchHII, (will be ready for her SchHIII next spring). I started her in SchH way before I did any search work.

But I have found (as Melody said) a lot of the training to be complimentary between the two, especially the drive work and of course it does not hurt to have good obedience on your dog.

In terms of doing both, I think it depends a lot on the dog. I have seen lots of dogs at SchH that would make terrible SAR dogs due to nerve strength, or lack thereof, and low threshold for defense. 

And of course, the individual SAR groups have their own rules about having a dog that has done bite work. I got lucky, the SAR group I joined has a couple of people previously or currently involved in SchH which always helps.


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## Aly Johnson

Thanks Charlotte! I just posted in my intro to ask you about this, but I guess you beat me to it! Can I ask what SAR team you're working with?


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## Sandra King

> the RH1 is only a sport title


Many people I know would beg to differ. It's not only a sport title. Lot's of dogs with the RH have life finds and actually are operational. It can be a sport but it doesn't have to be and a lot of operational folks actually do it as a sport as well. It's a great foundation and I'd go as far and say that quite a few RH dogs would do much better than what I've seen recently in the area search up here. 

I may be new at the SAR stuff but I have a good eye and I can see the difference between a well trained dog and a badly trained dog and good and bad dogs, especially since it's not that much different from SchH work. 

Dogs being trained for three years and still not certified is a sad picture. I doubt some of those dogs would even get through the RH at all, let alone would hold up in the nationals... due to the missing physical condition and agility.


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## Melody Greba

Sandra:

There are RH titles that can be acquired, here in the U.S. I spoke with Walter Hoffman at a trial in around 2004-05 and he was promoting the RH program through United Sch Clubs of America here in the U.S. just as he did with the SV. He absolutely made clear that the RH1&2 were only sport titles and not to be promoted as deployable, as I discussed this with him in length. The deployable aspect for for international deployment for the IRO is at the end after sport titles and if the handler chooses to go that extra mile. 

However, I do agree with you that there are SAR dogs that could not pass an RH2. The RH1 is pretty simple. And there are SAR dogs that have an RH sport title that are SAR dogs in the real world but because they are involved in a group with certifications. Often times, these certifications are in-house.

Yes, I have seen the same picture regarding quality and time that it takes a dog to "certify" that you have, I am sure by the way that you write. The picture that you and I see is everywhere. There are also threads on this list from the past that go into this as politely as possible. 

Cheers


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## Nancy Jocoy

Everything you have said about your team, here and elswhere ndicates is is either (1) a fairly new team struggling to build and at the stage where they will take everyone or (2) where they are, where they will be, and not remarkably serious.

There is a lot of both in SAR and I know we have evolved over the years to being a lot more demanding and structured and are still demanding- you have to be that way if you actually want to do it right. And that means opening the exit door to people and dogs who don't meet the requirements.

There is no way a 30 minute old track with the start marked or a 12 acre area should be considered an operational test and we DO Have national requirements in our NIMS standards. The defacto minimum is a 40 acre search area or a 3 or 4 hour old trail and it goes up from there. I think the titles are basic suitablity tests. Don't have a problem with them but don't make them more than they should be.

Unfortunately the lack of standards is one reason it is good for the agencies running searches (even that is not standard) to work and train with their local SAR resources to sepearate the wheat from the chaff.


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## Sandra King

Let's just say there are issues that have been addressed and are worked on. It's gotten a lot better and hopefully a very important person within the team is taking it a little more serious now. 

I honestly was at a point where I wanted to join another team because it was that much of a joke and I am not driving over an hour for only half an hour training. That is ridiculous, plus, it won't get you anywhere as a handler and nowhere as a team. 

It has changed, it still needs a lot of work but I think the team finally understood that something seriously needs to change and that it takes a lot more of a team effort to get where we all want to be.


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## julie allen

I have a dog that works both cadaver and tracking extremely well. I have not had a problem with her confusing the two. I give either her search or check command at the start and she knows which she is doing from that command. She will pass cadaver samples if tracking, and if working cadaver will not track. She is an exceptional dog. So you can do more than one thing if the dog is good. I will say this takes a ton of time, and I would not continue if the dog seemed confused. Live search is no place for aggression. If you have a child or mentally disturbed person who is behind a tree, then jump out at the dog, you do not want a bite to happen. I work a mal, have a young shepherd in training, and 4 mal pups starting. This is especially true of these breeds.


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## Jim Delbridge

So, if you are running a real trail for some one that's suicidal and wandered all over the forest, it's ok for the dog to pass up the dead victim to finish the trail? Say your victim hung themselves 20 feet up in a tree over the trail...

I see problems with that training philosophy.

Jim Delbridge


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## julie allen

Now if the person killed themself on the trail, where would the track stop? We had an actual trail, that ended in a drowning. The body was fresh, so she went to the victim. She wanted him to play with her, and took a minute to figure why he didn't get out of the creek.
Have not had a hanging yet. However she tracks, and has worked cadaver in trees. If someone walked out to a tree and hung himself, yes she would track to the body. I also can read my dog. Say if a man was lost, wandering in the woods, stumbled on a bomb, and was blown to pieces... if Greta was given the track command, she would track to the last scent, I will see if she begins to show interest in something, she does not have to alert on something for me to notice. I see no problem since we have not had a problem working this. On the actual track-turned-cadaver, when I noticed this was a dead find, I called her, told her check, and she ran to him and alerted.
Now maybe I could see a problem, if we were tarcking a certain person, and say there was a different dead person off that track but maybe in same field??? Then she may ignore that since it would not be scent of person and off the track.


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## Jim Delbridge

I was thinking of a case where the "victim" had walked under a tree which grew out of cliff above. The "victim" liked the view and walked on past and around, up to the cliff and out onto the tree before hanging himself. Best case is you want the dual trained dog to stop under the victim despite the trail continuing on. That you had to call the dog back to alert suggests a weakness in the training regimen. I'd personally prefer that the dog stop on a trail to mark remains like you would an article, reward the dog without ending the training, and finish the trail.
With an HRD dog, you want the dog to make the find despite the handler if the handler has a pre-arranged agenda.

Jim


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## julie allen

Bieng that she will air scent as well, I think that would not be a problem, unless the track was very old, in which case we would not be tracking but looking for cadaver. She will pass cadaver remains on a training trail. However, the person that lays the track is not the same as the cadaver sample, lol and we have no way to train that way yet... The actual search she was on where the person was deceased she had no problems. I assume since he had not been dead long she could still smell the "live" scent and knew what she was looking for. West Tn is very populated, we don't get the wilderness searches where you can turn a dog loose for miles and follow the bark. There are way too many houses, roads, and other hazards here. I do see your point.
When we began her training, I was told by many people you cannot have a dog that will successfully be able to do two tasks (tracking and cadaver). Then I met with a couple of the master trainers from NAPWDA that blew that out of the water. I had been training on both and she gets both. She has certified in tracking, and trailing, and would have tried the cadaver but they did not offer it yet. Our certification is coming up in Aug. or Sept. for cadaver as well. Wish us luck!!


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## Jim Delbridge

come to Dallas in late October and we can watch each other test on HRD with NAPWDA. They did a trailing test there as well that was neat to watch.



Jim


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## Nancy Jocoy

You know there is always that transition scent. 

We have had a team trailing dog jump into a river after a drowning victim - trailed right to the bank where he fell in. 

A lot of succesful boat water dogs have ONLY live find and water cadaver training because the freshly dead smell somewhere in between. 

So when does a dead person completely stop smelling like they did when they were alive?

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Where I think the single purpose cadaver dog is more important is old stuff, shallow graves - historical - forensics detail level. Though I have seen some pretty good dogs that do both. Then I have seen others that were totally lost and confused by the multiple disciplines..


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## julie allen

I would like to Jim. I think ours is set for Aug or sept, haven't heard final decision yet. who is the trainer certifying in dallas?


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## julie allen

Nancy, not sure on when the live scent is completely gone. Depends on weather and conditions. The man I mentioned above was in a creek in cold water, and wasn't dead any more than 2 days at most. I have not been able to train on anyhting real old yet. I have used teeth and cremains, as well as bones, placenta, tissues, appendages, etc. Its really amazing to me the way dogs can work.


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## Jim Delbridge

Roy Lopez was in charge of HRD and trailing. The name of the trainer over the accellerant testing escapes me. He ran the area search test since the accellerant dogs finished early. Roy's with the US Border Patrol.

Jim


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## julie allen

I believe Jenny Frost is coming here? I am not positve if thats right. Jim Watson and Bob Theurer were over the tracking and trailing for our cert. I really learned alot and loved the seminar.


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