# Strong Nerves?



## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

So here is my question. Ever since my bad experience with nerves a strong nerved dog has become essential to me. I mean a dog unfazed by people, noise, new environments etc. I have become allergic to nerves.

So is this something that is shown right from the get go that never goes away? 

If a young dog ever seems insecure or unsure in a new environment is that a sign of genetic nerves? 

At what ages can a young dog display signs of minor insecuirty and for how long before there is a good chance the dog is genetically nervy?

Those of you that have what you consider strong nerved dogs what was your experience in terms of the young dogs development what ages did issues crop up? How quick did the dog get over it?

Saw a male GSD today about 13 months seemed to have 0 issues in the backyard played decent tug with me had no issues with rough play being touched etc. 
I brought out one of those tubes of wrapping paper and shook it around and he backed up, sniffed it then decided he wasnt coming near it and avoided it. Was walking him seemed interested in people going by wanted to sniff everyone. However old guy with a walker shambled by and he avoided the guy clearly walked around him, licked his lips etc. Also, he seemed to be startled when large noisey vehicles passed. At no time did he ever tuck his tale or hackle obviously but he seemed "unsure" about some sightes and sounds for lack of a better word. Is this a nervy dog?


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Haz Othman said:


> So here is my question. Ever since my bad experience with nerves a strong nerved dog has become essential to me. I mean a dog unfazed by people, noise, new environments etc. I have become allergic to nerves.
> 
> So is this something that is shown right from the get go that never goes away?
> 
> ...


 
What do you think? You said you "saw" him. Is it a prospect? If so, leave it in the back yard and move on. Its dial-a-prayer.

T


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

It sounds like you do not only want a strong nerved dog but also a laid back one.I had a strong nerved bitch
once,nothing bothered her but she was also overly active.In the kennel she would pace and whine for hours and hours.
Homeless people seem to have the best socialized and laidback dogs,i am always impressed by the way their dogs behave ,even the young pups.
Don't worry about getting a laid back dog if you train and handle them right they will be very good sport dogs.It is nice to have a dog who is active if you need them to be but a couch potato when in the house.


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> What do you think? You said you "saw" him. Is it a prospect? If so, leave it in the back yard and move on. Its dial-a-prayer.
> 
> T


 
He was a potential condidate, I liked his social confidence but he seemed unsure environmentally. 
Thing is this guy was only 1 year old, so is it an age thing? Or do you like to see confidence in all aspects from 8 weeks onwards no excuses?
Ive seen upwards of 4 young dogs now and all have shown what could be considered some small form of nerves. One was obviously insecure the other two seemd social but environmentally a bit hinky not a lot just a bit "unsure" I guess with strange sounds sights.

These were dogs between 8 weeks and 2 years old. So I have to reevaluate am I expecting too much? Does true nerve only appear after a certain period of time? What are acceptable signs of unsureness?


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

If it was a GSD and it showed that at that age I would move on. Are you in Dwynn's club. I was trying to remember who is at Saugeen


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

jack van strien said:


> It sounds like you do not only want a strong nerved dog but also a laid back one.I had a strong nerved bitch
> once,nothing bothered her but she was also overly active.In the kennel she would pace and whine for hours and hours.
> Homeless people seem to have the best socialized and laidback dogs,i am always impressed by the way their dogs behave ,even the young pups.
> Don't worry about getting a laid back dog if you train and handle them right they will be very good sport dogs.It is nice to have a dog who is active if you need them to be but a couch potato when in the house.


Honestly, I dont mind a dog that is high energy Im active enough, I just dont want the nerves!


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Steve Burger said:


> If it was a GSD and it showed that at that age I would move on. Are you in Dwynn's club. I was trying to remember who is at Saugeen


pm sent.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Haz Othman said:


> He was a potential condidate, I liked his social confidence but he seemed unsure environmentally.
> Thing is this guy was only 1 year old, so is it an age thing? Or do you like to see confidence in all aspects from 8 weeks onwards no excuses?
> Ive seen upwards of 4 young dogs now and all have shown what could be considered some small form of nerves. One was obviously insecure the other two seemd social but environmentally a bit hinky not a lot just a bit "unsure" I guess with strange sounds sights.
> 
> These were dogs between 8 weeks and 2 years old. So I have to reevaluate am I expecting too much? Does true nerve only appear after a certain period of time? What are acceptable signs of unsureness?


As I said, ONLY if I tested it at 7 weeks and have raised it will I accept periods of insecurity thereafter. My last GSD I got at 7 months and but for a couple of outings she had never seen anything else but grass, gravel and her kennel in the country. She was flawless with everything I exposed her to and owned it thereafter, including meeting homeless people with shopping carts, canes and wheel chairs; crowds, slippery floors, and all sorts of environment like open stairs, playgrounds, gun shots, fireworks, elevators--every thing I could think of. Unless you have tested it beforehand, you have no way of knowing if its a stage or not. You could gamble and doggie turn out just fine, or you could get another nervy dog. At this point, I'd get an older dog on a 60 day trial--30 at least. The one you described would have flunked based on your walk. I think the environment stuff is becoming a huge issue and people/breeders can socialize their way out of it. Two years ago, this wasn't as much of a big deal to me. I want the genetically sound dog--not one I have to spend tons of time desensitizing. If I were going to train bitework, it just wouldn't be a question of the dog playing tug with me. I'd have a good training helper work the dog so I could observe and make a decision after consultation regarding grips confidence [eye contact] etc. 

T


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> As I said, ONLY if I tested it at 7 weeks and have raised it will I accept periods of insecurity thereafter. My last GSD I got at 7 months and but for a couple of outings she had never seen anything else but grass, gravel and her kennel in the country. She was flawless with everything I exposed her to and owned it thereafter, including meeting homeless people with shopping carts, canes and wheel chairs; crowds, slippery floors, and all sorts of environment like open stairs, playgrounds, gun shots, fireworks, elevators--every thing I could think of. Unless you have tested it beforehand, you have no way of knowing if its a stage or not. You could gamble and doggie turn out just fine, or you could get another nervy dog. At this point, I'd get an older dog on a 60 day trial--30 at least. The one you described would have flunked based on your walk. I think the environment stuff is becoming a huge issue and people/breeders can socialize their way out of it. Two years ago, this wasn't as much of a big deal to me. I want the genetically sound dog--not one I have to spend tons of time desensitizing. If I were going to train bitework, it just wouldn't be a question of the dog playing tug with me. I'd have a good training helper work the dog so I could observe and make a decision after consultation regarding grips confidence [eye contact] etc.
> 
> T


When you say she preformed flawlessly what did that look like. Did she react at all to the new things, did she ignore, or was she interested / moving forward? 
Would grips and eye contact depend on the age of the dog and experience with the tug. The one I looked at had never done any tug till I brought out my 2 foot tug. 

Lol I am getting back to basics here to make sure I am being realistic. It is looking more and more like I am going to have to go with a pup.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

pups are 50/50
nice that they are a blank page
not so nice since they are also a crap shoot 
PM sent


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

some dogs will conform to their owners temperament ? 

maybe homeless dogs seem nerveless because they are actually lethargic and don't feel a need to seek out anything beyond their "laid back" providers ? would the dog react the same if you took it out of its comfort zone ?

i've definitely seen hyper owners with hyper dogs ... is it the owner conditioning the dog or vice versa ? is it traveling up the leash or down ?

just thinking over morning coffee ///// now to fix the roof leak :evil:


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## Elaine Matthys (May 18, 2008)

I've had a a lot of dogs through my house, both mine and foster dogs of all ages. I've found that dogs with nerve issues have issues from the very beginning. I've also found that some dogs can get away minimal early socialization and still be totally unphased by anything, but most need it.

My current older dog I got at 8 weeks and I was stunned at how confident he was from the very first moment. On my way home after picking him up, I had to stop at a couple of rest stops and let him out. He went around at the end of his leash like he owned the world and he's been like that ever since. Nothing phases this dog and he's never had a moment of insecurity. 

I have a foster failure that I got a couple of years ago that began his life as a big dumb farm dog. He was never off the farm and they took no great effort to socialize him. I got him as an adult dog and the first thing I did with him was take him to an agility trial. Other than being real wide eyed at all the commotion and seeing more people in one place than he had seen in his whole life, he was fine. This has been how he reacts to all the new things in his life. He has never reacted badly to anything new, just more of a wow, what is that? sort of reaction. He's a wonderful dog with solid nerves.

Other dogs that react badly to things at any age, have nerve issues to one degree or another and I haven't found that they change. They can be socialized like crazy which will minimize the nerve issue, but it never goes away.

If you are looking for a dog with solid nerves, I would highly recommend you pick a breeder with a good reputation for producing dogs like that. If you are looking at an older dog, I would avoid any dog that demonstrates any insecurity about anything and if they are working on a helper, how they react to pressure from the helper is a big clue to nerves. If you are looking at puppies, check out the parents' nerves and any previous puppies, and if that checks out fine, then let the breeder pick out a good one for you.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Haz Othman said:


> When you say she preformed flawlessly what did that look like. Did she react at all to the new things, did she ignore, or was she interested / moving forward?
> Would grips and eye contact depend on the age of the dog and experience with the tug. The one I looked at had never done any tug till I brought out my 2 foot tug.
> 
> Lol I am getting back to basics here to make sure I am being realistic. It is looking more and more like I am going to have to go with a pup.


 
She didn't react. This included the guy with the halloween mask on. She walked up to him and then before I knew it jumped up and sniffed the mask. The homeless people she watched and pulled out ahead to walk right up to to check them out. Carts, canes, wheelchairs, never phased her. Thinking about it, she had a tendency to go to it and check it out. The sound stuff it was as if she didn't hear it. She went from living out in the country to the middle of the city and you couldn't tell the difference. She also hadn't been in a house so things like the refridgerator or cabinets opening, she would get up and check out. 

A training helper knows how to turn a dog on, look at his drives etct. I'm not suggesting pressure work really but still, looking at confidence and engagement. A lot of people believe grips are genetic and they comment on the drives as well. I thought I was somewhat more relaxed on this but I'm running into people that think socialization and ENS replaces breeding/selecting for sound nerves. Inability to adapt to change of environment is an issue. Just look at the LE threads here. Desensitization is a full time job. I know people who have worked at it for years. Eventually, they got the dog to overcome certani things at maximum maturity. That's a lot of time, money and miles that could be spent on training/trialing, whatever.

As you are seeing, nerves can be an issue. I think you have to take some time and really visit a lot of dogs/litters and watch dogs work. Also, get to know as much about lines as possible. Find people who have the dogs and find out how they are to live with--change of environment; public environment, kids, babies, etc. Seems like I'm ready for a dog every 10-12 years. A LOT happens within a breed during that time. You have to catch up on what types of dogs are being bred in terms of traits and who produces the type of dog you are looking for. 

I'm one that totally disagrees with "pups are a crap shoot." Take home the one already exhibiting sound sensitivity or change of environment sensitivity, then yes, its a crap shoot. I do believe that dogs can to a certain extent take on their owners personality. All that said, I wouldn't gamble. If you are hell bent to get a dog NOW then you'll start compromising. Its hard to walk away because the dogs appeal to you on other levels and then you start telling yourself you can fix it. If you really want a dog for a specific purpose instead of a pet/companion, then you have to stick to the game plan and selection criteria.

T


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> She didn't react. This included the guy with the halloween mask on. She walked up to him and then before I knew it jumped up and sniffed the mask. The homeless people she watched and pulled out ahead to walk right up to to check them out. Carts, canes, wheelchairs, never phased her. Thinking about it, she had a tendency to go to it and check it out. The sound stuff it was as if she didn't hear it. She went from living out in the country to the middle of the city and you couldn't tell the difference. She also hadn't been in a house so things like the refridgerator or cabinets opening, she would get up and check out.
> 
> A training helper knows how to turn a dog on, look at his drives etct. I'm not suggesting pressure work really but still, looking at confidence and engagement. A lot of people believe grips are genetic and they comment on the drives as well. I thought I was somewhat more relaxed on this but I'm running into people that think socialization and ENS replaces breeding/selecting for sound nerves. Inability to adapt to change of environment is an issue. Just look at the LE threads here. Desensitization is a full time job. I know people who have worked at it for years. Eventually, they got the dog to overcome certani things at maximum maturity. That's a lot of time, money and miles that could be spent on training/trialing, whatever.
> 
> ...


 
Yes you definitely start tricking yourself into compromising in certain respects and make excuses for the dog. Lol its hard being without one and fighting the impulse to get into another one asap.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Haz Othman said:


> Yes you definitely start tricking yourself into compromising in certain respects and make excuses for the dog. Lol its hard being without one and fighting the impulse to get into another one asap.


I know. Been there done that and I sense that's where you are. Hang in there. What I want in the corgis is really getting harder and harder to come by. You like the people and dogs involved so you start asking yourself can you compromise somewhere. To complicate matters, if I start feeding it and training it, its here for life. So you have to sorta slap yourself out of it and wait for the right one to come along.


T


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

If you are having a problem ascertaining what a 'Dog with solid nerves is' I have a suggestion for you.
find someone with an English bull terrier, puppy or adult, doesn't matter and take it for a long walk through the most distracting and 'scary' environment.
This will give you something to measure against for you working prospect.
You would have to be very very very unlucky to find a nervy English bull terrier.

IMO good nerves show from the start and I also take into account bounce back time, if a pup is initially unsure of something but miliseconds later it has realized it is not a threat that's fine by me, but that's just my opinion.

Nerves are a pain in the ass especially in dobermans, one thing can ruin it all, one of my dobes is environmentally rock solid but will just not let anyone she does not know touch her at all, it sucks.


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## Gerald Guay (Jun 15, 2010)

Dogs sometimes look good when tested in drive. Always test out of drive.


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Gerald Guay said:


> Dogs sometimes look good when tested in drive. Always test out of drive.


Thats a good point. The one dog seemed much more solid when he was playing with the ball toy when off of it I saw him become more hesitant.


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

Be mindful, also of the amount of exposure the dog has had to things before you got it. Has it ever left the yard or the kennel before you? What is the age of the dog? Sometimes, while maturing they act weird at things, then they mature and pretend it never happened. Are you introducing the dog properly to new environment and stimuli? It sounds like everyday its a test w/ you observing to see what unnerves the dog. That travels down the leash also. You need to be confident and assisting the dog w/ ignoring and/or not being phased by stimuli. If that's what you continue to look for then that is what you will see.


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Strong dogs with sure temperament do not need exposure and training trips to become confident environmentally. They come out of the box like that. If you see any sign of insecurity, move on.


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## Edward Weiss (Sep 19, 2011)

Sometimes ya just know...

http://workingairedale.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=3579


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Faisal Khan said:


> Strong dogs with sure temperament do not need exposure and training trips to become confident environmentally. They come out of the box like that. If you see any sign of insecurity, move on.


Agree. I know that dogs stage. However, unless you had some information prior to the stage as to the genetics, you don't know that its a stage or not--so I'd move on. You shouldn't have to environmentally desensitize it and for a working dog why would you want environment sensitivity? Its not a matter if you look for something you will find it. A friend of mine and I hung out while they were working dogs with Kevin Bain tonight. When it was time to test her dog I told him that at 9-12 months she was pressure sensitive but now at 2 wanted to see how she was. Came through with flying colors. But she raised that dog from puppyhood and knew her earlier responses and drives, etc. We agreed at the time that it was an age for being "off" but still didn't like it. She had no prior bite work introduction and hasn't had any in the past year. So when we were invited to bring dogs, suggested having her worked by Kevin to see where she was. He's fabulous BTW. Really enjoyed watching him work each dog.

T


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Agree. I know that dogs stage. However, unless you had some information prior to the stage as to the genetics, you don't know that its a stage or not--so I'd move on. You shouldn't have to environmentally desensitize it and for a working dog why would you want environment sensitivity? Its not a matter if you look for something you will find it. A friend of mine and I hung out while they were working dogs with Kevin Bain tonight. When it was time to test her dog I told him that at 9-12 months she was pressure sensitive but now at 2 wanted to see how she was. Came through with flying colors. But she raised that dog from puppyhood and knew her earlier responses and drives, etc. We agreed at the time that it was an age for being "off" but still didn't like it. She had no prior bite work introduction and hasn't had any in the past year. So when we were invited to bring dogs, suggested having her worked by Kevin to see where she was. He's fabulous BTW. Really enjoyed watching him work each dog.
> 
> T


Some dogs don't stage, is what I am trying to say.


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Im definitely moving on from that dog not worth risking the $$$.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Haz Othman said:


> Honestly, I dont mind a dog that is high energy Im active enough, I just dont want the nerves!


We had a high energy, strong nerved dog that we lost too early to a tumour. He had nerves of steel. When the school bus came up from the town, about 20 kinds would tumble out and crowd him squeaking and laughing. He loved it. Obviously I watched him but the kids seemed to know how to react with dogs. One really adored him and treated him like her own, grabbing him by the neck, which I stopped and explained that she could do it with her own dog but not with a strange dog. Even then he didn't protest.

He loved people but once when our neighbours were out on the terrace with us one evening, they scolded him verbally - he told them what he thought of them. Another chap chatted with me in the village and took him up in a clinch but I heard a slight growl and hauled him back in.

Strong nerved dogs take a lot of harrassing but even they have a point of no return.

His protection work was as good as his older colleague but his obedience after months of work in which he would be distracted by a bird flying up above or such was in the end better. Don't ask me why - he sat straight - he jumped in a high arc from front to heel and his older colleague was only interested in biting and tracking.

You have to decide what type of person you are - and what type of dog would suit you but good nerves show themselves from a few weeks' old.

One really negative sign in this dog, apart from his obsession with other animals (killer instinct) was his very high pain threshhold. However, this can be overcome (manually).


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Faisal Khan said:


> Some dogs don't stage, is what I am trying to say.


I agree. I tested a litter at 7 weeks. Did a retest at 8 weeks. The puppy with the highest drive wouldn't engage. I then turned my focus to the second pick sorta that worked consistently week 7 & 8. I prefer the one that doesn't go through it but even if so, still works. Unless you are really sure of a line, you don't know which ones will stage along the way. 

T


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## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

Zakia Days said:


> Be mindful, also of the amount of exposure the dog has had to things before you got it. Has it ever left the yard or the kennel before you? What is the age of the dog? Sometimes, while maturing they act weird at things, then they mature and pretend it never happened. Are you introducing the dog properly to new environment and stimuli? It sounds like everyday its a test w/ you observing to see what unnerves the dog. That travels down the leash also. You need to be confident and assisting the dog w/ ignoring and/or not being phased by stimuli. If that's what you continue to look for then that is what you will see.


I do know that mine was a little 'funny' when I first brought her home, but she hadn't been anywhere. She seemed pretty near fearless when I picked her up. She has proven to have pretty strong nerves. I recently had a neighbor's house catch fire in the middle of the night and led her up there with sirens, ten police cars, fire trucks with lights flashing, pretty much bedlam. She was calm, although she didn't want to let a policeman approach us in the dark, and gave him a warning. All the strange noises, etc, didn't bother her.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Faisal Khan said:


> Strong dogs with sure temperament do not need exposure and training trips to become confident environmentally. They come out of the box like that. If you see any sign of insecurity, move on.



If I test a litter of pups and even one in that litter shows nerve issues I'll pass on the litter. It shows the potential is there. I'm also one who doesn't believe in the puppy crap shoot thing. I've not had a pup turn out bad if I selected and raise it.


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