# Physical Punishment/Correction



## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

So I'm curious, in the interest of being on the same page or at least understanding where some people come from, if people consider these scenarios physical punishment, corrections or ???

In herding, if I tell my dog to "stop" and she doesn't, I will walk her down without saying anything else, take her by the collar or put a short leash on her, walk her back to where I told her to stop, and tell her "down/stop", then walk back to where I originally was and continue with the session. 

In agility if my dog is getting to amped up, getting the "zoomies", ignoring directional commands or contacts, etc I will walk the dog down, toss a slip leash on her (we run without a collar on usually), walk her over to a crate and put her in it, or walk her to the fence and tie her to it, without saying a word other than maybe "kennel up".

In neither situation am I doing anything other than holding the leash/collar, and walking towards a location (the stop point, the kennel, etc)

These aren't the only ways I handle these situations (no stop, idiocy in agility), but in these scenarios do people consider these physical corrections or punishment?


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

Sounds like appropriate corrections for the situations to me. Calm with clear understanding


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## John Wolf (Dec 12, 2009)

I do pretty much the same thing if my dog breaks a long down. I say nothing. Go to the dog. The slight difference is that I make it slightly uncomfortable (lifting on fur saver only allowing back feet on ground, very low level electric)until I get back to the long down spot. It has worked on every dog I've done it with. I do consider it a correction.


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Im personally having a hard time following the whole "punishment" thing. In training, imo, the purpose... the whole purpose... it to communicate with your dog... A correction in any form is a way of communicating... not really sure what the purpose of a punishment is? what is a punishment? how is it different than a correction? Please explain....


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

tracey delin said:


> Im personally having a hard time following the whole "punishment" thing. In training, imo, the purpose... the whole purpose... it to communicate with your dog... A correction in any form is a way of communicating... not really sure what the purpose of a punishment is? what is a punishment? how is it different than a correction? Please explain....


*Four contexts of operant conditioning*
Here the terms positive and negative are not used in their popular sense, but rather: positive refers to addition, and negative refers to subtraction.
What is added or subtracted may be either reinforcement or punishment. Hence positive punishment is sometimes a confusing term, as it denotes the "addition" of a stimulus or increase in the intensity of a stimulus that is aversive (such as spanking or an electric shock). The four procedures are:

*Positive reinforcement (Reinforcement)*: occurs when a behavior (response) is followed by a stimulus that is appetitive or rewarding, increasing the frequency of that behavior. In the Skinner box experiment, a stimulus such as food or sugar solution can be delivered when the rat engages in a target behavior, such as pressing a lever.

*Negative reinforcement (Escape)*: occurs when a behavior (response) is followed by the removal of an aversive stimulus, thereby increasing that behavior's frequency. In the Skinner box experiment, negative reinforcement can be a loud noise continuously sounding inside the rat's cage until it engages in the target behavior, such as pressing a lever, upon which the loud noise is removed.

*Positive punishment (Punishment) *(also called "Punishment by contingent stimulation"): occurs when a behavior (response) is followed by a stimulus, such as introducing a shock or loud noise, resulting in a decrease in that behavior.

*Negative punishment (Penalty)* (also called "Punishment by contingent withdrawal"): occurs when a behavior (response) is followed by the removal of a stimulus, such as taking away a child's toy following an undesired behavior, resulting in a decrease in that behavior.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

kadi, I would consider that a physical correction. 
Punishment, in my mind, would be excessive correction. In other words correcting beyond what's needed to get a wanted response from the dog. Make sense?


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> *Four contexts of operant conditioning*
> Here the terms positive and negative are not used in their popular sense, but rather: positive refers to addition, and negative refers to subtraction.
> What is added or subtracted may be either reinforcement or punishment. Hence positive punishment is sometimes a confusing term, as it denotes the "addition" of a stimulus or increase in the intensity of a stimulus that is aversive (such as spanking or an electric shock). The four procedures are:
> 
> ...


So you interpret this as punishment is taking away a toy or introducing a loud noise? vs a correction is what? verbal/ physical communication? Copy and paste isnt really telling me how everyone is interpreting this.


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> kadi, I would consider that a physical correction.
> Punishment, in my mind, would be excessive correction. In other words correcting beyond what's needed to get a wanted response from the dog. Make sense?


Yes but also much left open to individual interpretation.... what is excessive to one dog is not excessive to another, so its really not as simple as the term "correction". or how AT ALL the OP post had anything to do with or even come close to being interpreted as "punishment" by that definition... and I think that is where it really got cloudy for me.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

tracey delin said:


> So you interpret this as punishment is taking away a toy or introducing a loud noise? vs a correction is what? verbal/ physical communication? Copy and paste isnt really telling me how everyone is interpreting this.


oooh..
LOL..

that is 1/2 the problem...people talk about marker training, then they say operant conditioning, then use the terms corrections...and punishment..
lots of ways to look at it...

I guess for me in a context of how you are looking to get opinions on a correction is usually for me, something physical, like a collar pop, jerk, a corrective stim, a smack, a kick or whatever, punishment I think in terms of physical at least, is something that people may view as going to far...but who knows, I am in the same boat as you


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## Jim Delbridge (Jan 27, 2010)

Unfortunately, while most trainers stick with the association time of desired response to reward, many times the correction can be minutes after the undesired behavior. In such cases, it's often wasted. The point from "old school" on physically moving the dog to where you desired it to be is that you move the dog neutrally to that location (no lifting off it's front legs) and then once the dog is in the desired location doing what you requested that you follow up with a positive response. This is where using a long-line or an e-collar in transition to teach the desired response comes in handy. You can immediately give a signal to correct the undesired response THEN reward when they follow up with what you want. I consider the best dog handlers/trainers as really linquist as they understand (regardless as to whether it's conscious or subconscious) that they have a very short window for a dog to associate stimulus with a response. You can even just give a verbal "buzzer noise" in lieu of an e-stim and then follow up with a verbal praise immediately when the dog responds in the right direction. The bulk of handlers that I see are either great at positive praise or heavy with negative response, but not at both sides. Great handlers can read when one response is actually detrimental so they switch gears to find what works well with the dog they have at the moment.

Jim


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

The post wasn't really about whether people use a similar technique, or don't, it was "is this a physical correction?" "Is this a physical punishment?" "is this neither?"

I'm just wondering what exactly is a correction or punishment to some people (I know what I think it is), and when does it become physical or not physical. IE I get that with holding a reward can be considered a correction or punishment, but it's not a physical one in that you withheld something but didn't touch the dog, it's not a pop on a collar, a smack from a hand, etc. But in the scenarios I gave there is physical interaction with the dog, I am physically going and getting the dog and taking them somewhere. In the case of agility I'm also taking something away from them, the chance to run the course. So is that a physical correction or punishment to people?


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## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

That's punishment, but we're just talking labels. If you took the TV away from your kids, wouldn't that be punishment? I think some have a problem seeing the difference between a physical correction and punishment. Punishment doesn't have to be physical, just like with your kids. Actually kids are trained with some of the same methods as animals, IMO. I haven't used an ecollar on any.....yet.

I think if you're taking them somewhere, that is more compulsion, forcing them to do something, not a correction. But what the hell do I know?


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Typically, when I think of punishment as it relates to dogs, I think of it in terms of operant conditioning. Punishment decreases the likelihood of a behavior. I have a pretty academic brain so I don't usually try to put my own spin on things. If my response to a dog's behavior decreases the likelihood that the behavior will occur again, that's punishment. If I apply a undesirable stimulus in response to that behavior, it's positive punishment. If I remove a desirable stimulus in response to that behavior, it's negative punishment. 

When I say the word correction, I am always referring to positive punishment. That's just me personally. I understand a correction is literally anything that corrects a mistake or disobedience. I don't correct mistakes through use of positive punishment. I try to help the dog learn and make the right decision in the future. But I will use positive punishment to correct disobedience and just to make things easier and because most people I train with speak the same language as me, I call it a correction. 

Kadi, in your examples, from how you describe them, I wouldn't consider either positive punishment ...therefore, I personally wouldn't refer to it as a correction. Defining what you're doing using operant conditioning terms depends on how you look at it and exactly how the dog is perceiving your response. In the first scenario, it could be negative reinforcement if it's uncomfortable for the dog to be led by collar or leash back to where you told him or her to down. Or it could be negative punishment because you are taking away the dog's freedom to do something it enjoys because it has disobeyed. In the second example, I would say negative punishment because you're ending the fun because the dog is running wild. 

Of course, a lot of this is semantics ...especially when it comes to how to define a correction. This is just how I look at it.


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## Travis Ragin (Apr 10, 2010)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> , I am physically going and getting the dog and taking them somewhere


This is simply showing them the *correct* position/way that you want them to be in......as I see it.

As long as the handler remains neutral and does this with *zero anger or emotion***....The dog does not view it as punishment.


****easier said than done,as I am guilty of this myself.


t


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## Travis Ragin (Apr 10, 2010)

Thread could have been locked after this reply!




Bob Scott said:


> kadi, I would consider that a physical correction.
> Punishment, in my mind, would be excessive correction. In other words correcting beyond what's needed to get a wanted response from the dog. Make sense?


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Glad I asked, seems it ranges from person to person..... From bad training to good training.... Go figure.


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

As "there is no crying in baseball" I always like to say .... There is no emotion in dog training... LOL


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## Jim Delbridge (Jan 27, 2010)

Well, to be blunt, "punishment" is a human term which requires association of a penalty delivered for an act "remembered." Dogs live in the now. "Punishment" is up there with the owner who swears, "I know the dog knows better, it even looks guilty."
"Sorry, the dog knows you become a psycho when you come home to find a pile of dog feces on the white shag. The dog is not associating the act of pooping three hours ago( because you couldn't be bothered to come home at lunch) with you shoving its nose in the pile. It simply knows you are nuts and there isn't a whole lot it can do about it."
Dogs do have memory, but it simply doesn't work like ours do. When a dog flipping it's owner/handler off gets a "time out," this is really a chance for the human to regain calm, not for the dog to "learn its lesson."

Owners/handlers/trainers do all sorts of idiotic acts in the name of "punishment." Fortunately for us, the dogs don't realize they have other options and often figure out what will appease the humans anyway.

Respectfully,

Jim Delbridge


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Defining what you're doing using operant conditioning terms depends on how you look at it and exactly how the dog is perceiving your response. In the first scenario, it could be negative reinforcement if it's uncomfortable for the dog to be led by collar or leash back to where you told him or her to down. Or it could be negative punishment because you are taking away the dog's freedom to do something it enjoys because it has disobeyed. In the second example, I would say negative punishment because you're ending the fun because the dog is running wild.
> 
> Of course, a lot of this is semantics ...especially when it comes to how to define a correction. This is just how I look at it.


 
This is it for me in a nutshell. When I'm TRAINING, I focus on using positive reinforcment to get the behavior I want. If I collared my dog back to a position, my dogs would perceive it as correction. If the dog wigged out and I put him up, negative punishment. It is waayyyy more profound for the dog to take him away from the herding field than to collar him back or correct him otherwise It has even more effect if I put him up and work another dog.

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Travis Ragin said:


> This is simply showing them the *correct* position/way that you want them to be in......as I see it.
> 
> As long as the handler remains neutral and does this with *zero anger or emotion***....The dog does not view it as punishment.
> 
> ...


If I physically collared my dog back to a position, the dog would know I'm not "neutral." First of all its something I just about never do. I'm not one that does anger but doggie would sense that I was less than happy.

T


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> This is it for me in a nutshell. When I'm TRAINING, I focus on using positive reinforcment to get the behavior I want. If I collared my dog back to a position, my dogs would perceive it as correction. If the dog wigged out and I put him up, negative punishment.



Interesting as it was actually your post that raised a brow for me first... In reference to the correction in the video. Maybe I misunderstood your intent but I read it as punishment was a "harder" correction for the dog.



> I agree with Selena that correction doesn't have to be punishment so maybe I see no evidence of the dog being punished.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> This is it for me in a nutshell. When I'm TRAINING, I focus on using positive reinforcment to get the behavior I want. If I collared my dog back to a position, my dogs would perceive it as correction. If the dog wigged out and I put him up, negative punishment. It is waayyyy more profound for the dog to take him away from the herding field than to collar him back or correct him otherwise It has even more effect if I put him up and work another dog.
> 
> T


I thought everything we do with our dogs can be considered training..


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

tracey delin said:


> Interesting as it was actually your post that raised a brow for me first... In reference to the correction in the video. Maybe I misunderstood your intent but I read it as punishment was a "harder" correction for the dog.


It can be but keep in mind that I think of punishment as something you add, not something you take away. I have a hard time with negative punishment and negative reinforcement. If I follow the rules of operant conditioning and those definitions, then this is how I see it [i.e. your quotes and those contexts]. As for Shade's video, didn't listen with volume. I was only watching the dog's reactions. I had a hard time believing that the dog dropped the sleeve due to what she was doing physically or because he perceived correction. Ultimately, for me JD's thread was about the worth of controlling access to resources or opportunity for reward, NOT purely positive. You can decide which quadrants of operant conditioning to use in your training. 

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> I thought everything we do with our dogs can be considered training..


 
I don't know, Khira is laying here sleep with her head on my knee. I don't think I trained this.

T


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I don't know, Khira is laying here sleep with her head on my knee. I don't think I trained this.
> 
> T


lol..you encouraged it..which is training


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## Travis Ragin (Apr 10, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> If I physically collared my dog back to a position


He wouldn't mind,they learn that from the first days of it's life.Momma dog always has to use her canine teeth and jaws to "collar" them into position.Their discomfort or struggling is our own perception.
http://youtu.be/aBzy5OBECO8



Notice at the end of this video just how FAR into a position momma wants this pup,doesn't matter that he was ready to stop.
http://youtu.be/_daN5_pUlnE











Terrasita Cuffie said:


> If I physically collared my dog back to a position, the dog would know I'm not "neutral." First of all its something I just about never do. I'm not one that does anger but doggie *would sense that I was less than happy.*


And That is exactly what I mean by zero emotion T.......They can *sense* it in us even when we TRY to mask it.......it is not easy at all...............imagine I'll be practicing it for years to come before getting it mastered.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> So I'm curious, in the interest of being on the same page or at least understanding where some people come from, if people consider these scenarios physical punishment, corrections or ???
> 
> In herding, if I tell my dog to "stop" and she doesn't, I will walk her down without saying anything else, take her by the collar or put a short leash on her, walk her back to where I told her to stop, and tell her "down/stop", then walk back to where I originally was and continue with the session.
> 
> ...


I am not sure about the question. First, Does the dog change it's behavior? I think the loss of a resource is the primary "punisher".... Just because you physically moved the dog does not make that punishment. It's not. Unless the dog is so sensitive that the short leash walk would be sufficient to change the behavior. 

Punishment is decided by the dog.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

is it a correction?


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

In regards to the herding scenario, I have done similar and considered it showing the dog what I wanted, so I suppose a correction. However in the end after some experimentation, I found it was more effective to ask myself why the dog was doing this and I personally fixed the problem with one of my dogs by realising that my positioning and reading of the stock was part of the problem. However this may be different for another dog.

The second scenario is something I often witness at trials where a person will leave the ring with the dog. For some this is witholding from the dog something they enjoy, but for some dogs given that zoomies are sometimes related to stress it can be a relief to get out of the ring. I think it gets back to understanding why it is occurring in the first place and it will not always be the same for every dog.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> lol..you encouraged it..which is training


Not encouraged-acquiesced. She just did it one day out of the blue recently and I didn't correct it. 

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Sara Waters said:


> In regards to the herding scenario, I have done similar and considered it showing the dog what I wanted, so I suppose a correction. However in the end after some experimentation, I found it was more effective to ask myself why the dog was doing this and I personally fixed the problem with one of my dogs by realising that my positioning and reading of the stock was part of the problem. However this may be different for another dog.
> 
> The second scenario is something I often witness at trials where a person will leave the ring with the dog. For some this is witholding from the dog something they enjoy, but for some dogs given that zoomies are sometimes related to stress it can be a relief to get out of the ring. I think it gets back to understanding why it is occurring in the first place and it will not always be the same for every dog.


For me, with the first scenario, my dog was 8 1/2 and "trained." I have two dogs in my training group that have virtually told their handler "screw you." She's tried corrections. Didn't work. So I said, NILIF boot camp. The change in the dog was truly amazing the following week. If I'm training, 9/10 times I need to change my scenarios. You do have to decide if the dog is disobedient or just confused. You also have to ask yourself if you've truly generalized the behavior. Taking away the work is hard for me because it means I have to stop training. Generally, I'm only going to do this where I'm convinced of disobedience. 

T


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

tracey delin said:


> As "there is no crying in baseball" I always like to say .... There is no emotion in dog training... LOL


I know you’re kidding but if there was truly no emotion you wouldn’t use your “happy voice” ever? I would imagine you would use an upbeat voice with a smile once in a while with your dog? It’s hard to stay monotone your whole life. So if you use a positive voice for when your dog does as asked does using your normal voice become a correction?


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