# Parvo



## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

I went the no vaccine route. Pup was isolated in my backyard away from all dogs. I feed a raw diet and I don't myself deal with dogs. No dog contact whatsoever. YET this evening my 3 month old GSD is in an isolation ward with an IV fighting Parvo.

This disease is tremendously susceptible to pups and particularly working breeds (Dobies, rotties especially)for some weird reason. The virus is amazingly hardy, surviving for months, through the winter, etc. Frankly, a dog is unlikely NOT to be exposed to this virus over time. It's that bad.

And I'm looking at several thousand $$ and maybe he'll survive.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but my distinct opinion is that a minimum of Parvo, Distemper and Rabies is necessary. I made the wrong decision to not have Dist and Parvo shots. I had thoughts of maybe trying to wait in isolation until his mothers antibony levels fell, alowing a vacination in the pup to take hold.

Despite the isolaton, the virus found us.

My opinion only.

On the upside, the pups white blood cell count is perfect, despite the disease. Connie's encouragement to Raw Diet and supplements deserve a tip of my hat.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Another nod to the Jean Dodds protocol, sadly...... she does say Parvo shots at 9 weeks, 12 weeks, and 16 - 20 weeks.

I sure do have my fingers crossed for your pup.

That white cell count sounds really promising to me.

I hope Maren sees this and can comment on that.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Fingers, toes and eyes crossed her for your pup!


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Sorry to hear about your pup Ted. I was always wondering about this "no vaccination" stuff. I'm sorry you had to find out the hard way and I am sure your lil guy will pull through just fine! Thats the nice thing about good working lines, they are tough, they pull through and never give up!


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## Leo Hinojosa (Sep 4, 2007)

Sorry Ted for this bad experience. 
I will pray for you and your pup. 

Which brings me to a perhaps stupid question but I wonder if any study has been done on the long term effects of contacting a virus.

Meaning if a well driven pup, get sicks and recovers but is equal to the drives and spit fire attitude as before or has it lost a little something due to the bout with the virus ?

I would imagine the pup would reach full potential when it does recover, but I do not know that to be 100% certain.

Either way, Ted my prayers are with you and your family.


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## Justin Eimer (Oct 17, 2006)

Ted~
Parvo is deadly and I am terribly sorry to hear that your boy has it. My prayers are with you/him. ~Justin


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## Pauline Michels (Sep 1, 2006)

Ted I'm so sorry to hear this. My best to you and your little guy.


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## Hil Harrison (Mar 29, 2006)

So sorry to hear this Ted. I do hope all will be ok and your boy will come through just fine


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Pupdate:

30 hours after the first symptom of vomit, he's eating and drinking and holding it in. The worst may be over already.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Glad to hear it Ted, keep us posted!


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

From Answers.yahoo.com:
"The good news is that if a pup does survive, it usually has no long-term side effects from being sick"


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Ted, I'm so happy to see he is doing better. We are all pulling for the little guy.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Ted, good luck with your pup.



Leo Hinojosa said:


> Which brings me to a perhaps stupid question but I wonder if any study has been done on the long term effects of contacting a virus.
> 
> Meaning if a well driven pup, get sicks and recovers but is equal to the drives and spit fire attitude as before or has it lost a little something due to the bout with the virus ?
> 
> I would imagine the pup would reach full potential when it does recover, but I do not know that to be 100% certain.



My first litter from Mac contracted Parvo. All 10 of them. 1 pup didn't survive, the other 9 did. I don't think it had any long term effects on them in terms of drive and ability. The co-owners of the litter placed some of the pups in pet homes, so their ability has been squashed in the name of making them good pets. But the ones I placed all went into work homes, FR, SAR, herding, obedience, etc and they are all growing into the potential they originally showed prior to getting sick. There definitely isn't a lack of drive, and I don't think it effected their temperaments either. There is video of some of the various pups online, most of it is from the 4-6 month period, I need to get it updated. They just turned 1 year old today. Size wise a few are a little smaller then I thought they would be, but I don't believe that is from the parvo. It was a first litter for both Mac and Gizmo, and I'm still figuring out what they produce as far as maturity rates, final adult size, etc.

Aires (6 months) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_puJ09Y81sI At 9 months this pup was doing FRBrevet and FRI dog in white at a trial, now that he's turned a year I expect we'll see him trialing soon.
Nexxus (my little girl) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EAy6oqcaPs I'm mainly doing herding with Nexxus right now, eventually I'll title her in FR and maybe fool around in PSA with her. 
Sophie (6.5 months, second session with a decoy) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMEgVE9r2ZM
Sophie (7 months) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUq80aUhZ9Q
Jazz (4 months, obed class graduation test) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocl75pF8eaI


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## Pauline Michels (Sep 1, 2006)

Great news about the pup!!  Hope he is out of the woods........


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Ted White said:


> Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but my distinct opinion is that a minimum of Parvo, Distemper and Rabies is necessary.


In my area, Parvo seems to be a real problem. I hear of people in the working dog world every couple of months who have a litter with parvo, or even scarier, adult(s) coming down with it. It's gone through quite a few kennels, and there have been quite a few dogs that have died from it. A friend in Oregon just had a litter get it also, at 5 weeks old. My litter was 7 weeks. In Orange County they actually had a recent newspaper article that they were closing down some of the dog parks (for awhile, not forever) because of the rise of parvo cases. It doesn't help that people will have parvo at home or in their kennel, but are still taking their healthy dogs out to training/trials and not mention anything because that dog is healthy. But that dog could easily be carrying tiny amounts of feces on their feet or coat that contain the virus. And a TINY amount of feces can contain enough virus to infect multiple dogs.

Because of this, I've changed my vaccine protocol for pups. I'm giving them a parvo only shot at 5 weeks old now, if they still have immunity from mom, great, but if by chance they don't, then this will help protect them. They get another vaccine at 8 weeks, minimal one that includes Parvo and Distemper, and I'm telling my pup people to continue the vaccines every 3-4 weeks until 16 weeks. My vet has recommended one final parvo only shot at 20 weeks, as he's heard of pups who had immunities from their mom until 18 weeks.

Short of running multiple titers to try to figure out when mom's immunity wears off so you know when to vaccinate, I think this is the safest route to take. I try to not overvaccinate, and my adults only get them every 3+ years, but with pups it's a balancing act and I'm not willing to risk another litter getting parvo, especially when I know it's a problem in my area.


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Very good protocol Kadi. Parvo is an amazing survivor. The stats make it sound like something from another planet. Survives through most anything for months. Through the winter, etc. Bleach is one of the few common disinfectants that works.

Any you are so right that the tiniest amount can get your dog. Other animals, rodents, even insects can carry it. Like I said my pup was in almost absolute isolation and still was infected.


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## Justin Eimer (Oct 17, 2006)

Ted~
Glad to hear that things are looking up for your boy. Keep us posted. ~Justin


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

After reading a comment about Parvo after-effects on another thread, I read every vet-med handbook I have last night (as well as manuals directed towards owners) about surviving Parvo. I found one old (1980s) pretty vague comment about possible intestinal sensitivity afterwards. Otherwise I found consistent "no long-term effects likely" comments.

There are two basic "types," as we know: diarrhea syndrome and cardiac syndrome. I was not reading about cardiac syndrome, which is much rarer and was not involved here.


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## Julie Ward (Oct 1, 2007)

Very scary, I'm glad he seems to be out of the woods. 

I can't even imagine not giving puppy vaccines. There are actually people out there that don't?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Julie Ward said:


> Very scary, I'm glad he seems to be out of the woods.
> 
> I can't even imagine not giving puppy vaccines. There are actually people out there that don't?


Yes. While the protocol has shifted to less vaccinating in 21 of the 23 American vet med schools since 2002, and many people have adopted the Jean Dodds protocol (three Parvos and one booster are included, plus distemper and, of course, rabies), the vast majority do vaccinate.

I no longer do annual "boosters," which have been pretty much debunked across the board except by the companies that manufacture them, but I would certainly do the Jean Dodds protocol if I were deciding for a puppy.

There are a few breeders now who prefer to deal with the occasional acute illness rather than the long-term effects of vaccination (which do exist, IMO). 

There's a thread here about it.
http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/showthread.php?t=3490

If you google the word VACCINOSIS, you will get thousands of returns.

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/showthread.php?t=3203


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I don't do annual vacs either, but I do vaccinate my dogs as puppies and I will now be titering or vaccinating every 3 years.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I always do the puppy series. After that it's only rabies. That's because they are required by law. When I hunted with my terriers they were always kept up on the rabies, as I was myself.


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## Shelley Fritzke (Oct 7, 2007)

Sorry to hear about your pup. I am one of the breeders that has not vaccinated for quite some time (12 years,puppies included). I will vaccinate a pup for a new owner if they request it but it is always the single antigen vaccine. Thus far I have not had any problems. My pups that have not been vaccinated come up with a titer to parvo and distemper at a year of age. I just titered my female that has pups currently and at the age of 4 1/2 still have a good titer to parvo and distemper. 

Sadly, there are also no guarentees that your pup would have been 'covered' for parvo even if it had been vaccinated. That is actually what started me on my quest about vaccines years ago. I did parvo vaccines to find out afterwards that my dogs had ZERO immunity to parvo. Vaccines don't always 'work' and most would never know this as few titer after you do a vaccine to see if it 'took'. 

I believe there are risks to doing vaccines, but there are also risks to not doing them. One has to weigh them both out and come to a conclusion themselves. It does not surprise me in the least that parvo is making a come back and likely it is a stronger strain than the original. This is what happens. Parvo is DUE to a distemper vaccine gone 'wrong' with cats. This is a proven fact. They are now finding what they are calling 'stealth' virus inside vaccines. Things are appearing in vaccines that were never put there to start with. More studies are being done on this. 

I wish there were clear answers for everyone. I wish it was a simple as getting your dog vaccinated and then not having to worry about anything. 

I do feel that a modified protocal is likley the 'best' choice for most people/animals. The problem is 'which ' protocal. One should never vaccinate a puppy and then ship it within 7 days of the vaccination. This is only asking for trouble. I believe single antigen vaccines are the best choice. I believe the later you can give them the better...but this presents problems as well for the puppy that is being shipped. Do you keep the puppy til it is older and you can be sure the vaccine took? I know of several pups that were vaccinated and then shipped within 2 days of the vaccine. This stress is all the body needed for it to succumb to the vaccine and actually get full blown parvo. Was terrible. One pup survived to live with 'elephant' skin and endless heartache for the owner. The other pup died. My freinds litter just came down with parvo at 7 wks of age after the vaccination. Thankfully they recovered very quickly to it. (perhaps due to it being on a raw diet and having a better immune system). 

I have struggled with this issue over and over again as I am sure many breeders do. I am always 'worried' (to some point) when I don't do vaccines but I am also 'worried' when I do. Thus far my experiences have all been positive with the no vaccine approach but I know that it is a risk too. 

I hope your pup does well and recovers quickly. 

Shelley


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Shelley Fritzke said:


> I wish there were clear answers for everyone. I wish it was a simple as getting your dog vaccinated and then not having to worry about anything. .... I do feel that a modified protocal is likley the 'best' choice for most people/animals. The problem is 'which ' protocal. ... I have struggled with this issue over and over again as I am sure many breeders do. I am always 'worried' (to some point) when I don't do vaccines but I am also 'worried' when I do. Thus far my experiences have all been positive with the no vaccine approach but I know that it is a risk too. .... I hope your pup does well and recovers quickly.
> 
> Shelley


Shelley, I am reading a deluge of PMs and public board messages because of this episode. Ted's dog has generated more PMs to me and to two other health/diet researchers on this and another board than any other thread in recent memory. There are so many messages documenting cases of pups contracting Parvo after vaccinations. There are also many about pups contracting but then recuperating much better than vaccinated pups (with the writers believing that the enhanced immune response was due to the lack of vaccinosis and to fresh raw food).

I'm not seeing just single-experience owners, but many long-time breeders, saying this.

I am now really bewildered. I will be keeping up as much as I can with this fast-changing body of research.


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Pupdate:

Pup is home. Mind you this is a virus that causes the lining of the intestines to slough off. Massive bleeding in BMs, vomiting of upper GI intestinal lining. Extreme lethargy.

I uncrate him. He is prancing around like crazy. Brings me a stick. I get him inside and he's rolling on the floor, attacking my arm, wanting his belly rubbed.

Yesterday he was quite listless and I was just glad to see him wag his tail a bit.

Grand total BMs at vet 0
Grand total vomit at vet 0

Blood values? Iron a little low.

Came home, peed and pooped. A little runny? Sure. No blood, and let's face it, he's eaten little and been on an IV for 24 hours.

In hospital for 28 hours.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

He is Mr. Iron Pup, IMHO.

Can he have real food (just a little) in the morning? 

I know it's not the same disease, but some of the presentation is the same: when my dog a few years ago had a terrible attack of pancreatitis (a week in the hospital, vomiting and diarrhea, etc.) and heavy-duty antibiotics, we started her after the hospital with baby-food winter squash and a little ground white-meat turkey breast, along with non-fat yogurt and the fish oil and E. (We didn't know about other probiotics at that time.)

It sounds pretty over-cautious, maybe, but the vet had warned that she would have trouble with all but the blandest of foods, and (of course) recommended one of those Science Diet prescription foods.

Anyway, she did not have trouble with that food. I also gave her only tiny meals, several a day, for three days or so.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Dd the vet mention titers testing?

The web sites and even two vet med manuals argue about whether the pup can be reinfected from the contaminated environment.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

"Dogs who have survived parvo can get it again."
http://www.workingdogs.com/parvofaq.htm

" I've been told by a very good vet that once a puppy gets parvo and lives thru it, you don't ever have to worry about it getting Parvo again. They have enough immunities to fight it off if they are exposed to it again. Likewise, an adult dog who is exposed to Parvo will not get sick because he has built up enough immunities that he is able to fight it if exposed."
http://en.allexperts.com

" ... once they get Parvo and recover they can't get it again, this is true for the identical strains. But if he comes across a different strain, it starts again."
http://forums.horsecity.com


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## Shelley Fritzke (Oct 7, 2007)

Was this pup actually tested for parvo? Was it a definate 'positive'? If this pup was actually not 'tested' and the vet just said parvo due to the symptoms there is a good chance it was not parvo. 

My freinds litter was tested and it came back positive parvo, however, the pups recovered VERY quickly, no blood in stools etc. 

Connie, I know how you feel. I think it is good that we 'wrestle' with the issue. I will not be shocked if at some point if one of my pups gets parvo. However, I will deal with it then. I personally feel that the risk is higher for things to happen when I choose to vaccinate vs. no vaccination. I am third generation raw food and second/third no vaccines. I do believe that my pups have a stronger immune system. I also do neurological stimulation on my pups. I try to give them the BEST start I can, with what I know and believe, but I also want to respect the person who is not where I am 'at' in this and thus will also suppost a very modified vaccine protocal with single antigen vaccines with my pups.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Sorry I'm late on this thread, guys. Had a histology test today on, ironically enough, blood counts. Ted, I'm not sure if you saw my thread from July, but when he was 3 months old, my pup Fawkes from Kadi's litter had parvo-like symptoms: bloody diarrhea, very lethargic, dehydrated, fever of 105 F, elevated white cell count, trouble walking (I had to carry him to go potty every hour) and joints were warm to the touch, etc about 4 days after his DHPP shot. He was negative for parvo according to the ELISA at the vet school and none of the vets wanted to say it was a possible vaccine reaction. However, 2 days of SQ fluids and a simple diet (Innova EVO 95% duck and some cooked chicken, if I recall) really helped a lot. Here's the thread on it:

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/showthread.php?t=3203

So unfortunately, it can work both ways. :sad: He's coming up on 6 months old shortly, so I need to go get his titer tested and figure out when to do the rabies.


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## Julie Ward (Oct 1, 2007)

I know about not over vaccinating like we used to, but I had no idea that there were people out there that didn't give ANY, especially to puppies.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

I am assuming that since they were able to diagnose Giardia as well as Parvo that they would have tested for it? If they judged solely on symptoms then they wouldn't have found the Giardia?


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

I have had several people ask about testing. There were three stool samples tested. One for Giardia (positive), one for Parvo ("strong positive" per the vet) and one for worms (negative)

I asked about the possibility of a false positive, and was told that while that can happen on really rare occasions, the test results were strongly positive. No question in their minds. 

This AM the pup is chewing ankles but tired. More tired than last night but happy looking. This is a big key in my mind. Eating chicken and rice. Will be adding cooked squash (Potassium), Probios, vit E and fish oil 




Mike Schoonbrood said:


> I am assuming that since they were able to diagnose Giardia as well as Parvo that they would have tested for it? If they judged solely on symptoms then they wouldn't have found the Giardia?


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## Pauline Michels (Sep 1, 2006)

Giardia is frequently "false negative". Glad they were able to find that for you.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Ted White said:


> I have had several people ask about testing. There were three stool samples tested. One for Giardia (positive), one for Parvo ("strong positive" per the vet) and one for worms (negative)
> 
> I asked about the possibility of a false positive, and was told that while that can happen on really rare occasions, the test results were strongly positive. No question in their minds.
> 
> This AM the pup is chewing ankles but tired. More tired than last night but happy looking. This is a big key in my mind. Eating chicken and rice. Will be adding cooked squash (Potassium), Probios, vit E and fish oil


Very smart of you to pick up on the cooked squash. :>) You can get baby food squash too, if you want to save some trouble. They have big ("Junior") jars. No added ingredients.


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## Shelley Fritzke (Oct 7, 2007)

Maren, what you experienced with your dog is actually more common than you think. It is often seen as a classic vaccine reation. I have seen it before at my homeoapths office, except this dog could not walk at all. It did recover and did well. Sadly, these experiences seldom get 'filed' at a vaccine reation. 

I don't know enough about the testing for parvo to really comment on post/neg responses , which test is more accurate etc. And...I can understande why the vet went the route they did. As mentioned it is actually the symptoms in parvo that you are treating and it is these that the dog succumbs to. Dehydrated, not eating etc. SO...you treat the symptoms in hopes that they get better.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> I am assuming that since they were able to diagnose Giardia as well as Parvo that they would have tested for it? If they judged solely on symptoms then they wouldn't have found the Giardia?


Yes. A fecal test means they did a fecal Parvo (ELISA) test.

"Very high" means that the Parvovirus presence was high enough to conclude that it was the reason for the syptoms (diarrhea, lethargy).

If it was very low, there would have been some uncertainty deciding on whether it was the Parvovirus or something else not yet found that was causing the trouble.

At least, that's what I learned at a dog health class a few years ago.

A very high ELISA means he definitely had Parvo significantly present and that therefore it was the probable cause of the symptoms.

If anyone has a better perception, I hope they post.


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## Alicia Mertz (Mar 28, 2006)

Go puppy go! Go puppy go!

So glad to hear that your puppy is doing well, Ted!


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

I am torn. I got my pup vaccinated at 8 weeks, and he is okay so far, but now I don't know if I wanna do it again (I had a sleepless weekend over the time he got vaccinated). Normally I get them one or two shots and don't bother after, so now I am questioning if there's even a point to it at all.


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## Shelley Fritzke (Oct 7, 2007)

What type of vaccine did you give at 8 wks? I always tell my puppy buyers if they absolutely feel that they need to do another 'booster' vaccine, then try to wait til 12 or 14 wks. THEN, do a single antigen parvo vaccine and 2 wks. later do a single antigen distemper vaccine. This should be sufficient for coverage and it is less likley to give any kind of vaccine reaction when they are done in single antigen vaccines. You can also do a homeopathic remedy after the vaccines to help counteract problems and detoxify. You can also do some supplements prio to a vaccine to help them respond well.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

It was the regular DHPPC shot from the vet's...I tried looking for one that would offer a single parvo/distemper but couldn't find reliable information as every time I asked, they'd just say "yes" (I only found out it was DHPPC after checking the receipt).

I may do a single parvo and distemper shot myself, or not do it again at all. I don't know which risks I would rather take, though. I've raised pups that had parvo before and it wasn't pretty but I know shots aren't the cure-all for them.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Lyn Chen said:


> It was the regular DHPPC shot from the vet's...I tried looking for one that would offer a single parvo/distemper but couldn't find reliable information as every time I asked, they'd just say "yes" (I only found out it was DHPPC after checking the receipt).
> 
> I may do a single parvo and distemper shot myself, or not do it again at all. I don't know which risks I would rather take, though. I've raised pups that had parvo before and it wasn't pretty but I know shots aren't the cure-all for them.


This distemper, hepatitis, parainfluenza, parvo and corona "cocktail" is part of what the minimal vaccination advocates find so troubling. It's so much to throw at an immune system all on one day.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Been doing some reading. Now I am confused. Since I already did a vaccination at 8 weeks, I don't know if he will still have the benefits of an unvaccinated pup or should I keep with the plan and do at least another set. Frankly all the talk about vaccinosis is scaring me that I don't want to inject anything into him again. Pup is very healthy, freaking insane, and has been on a diet of fresh food with vitamin c, salmon oil, and vitamin e supplements so I have no problem believing he has a healthy immune system.


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Hi Lyn,

You could spend some $$ and have them to a titer on the dogs antibody levels. Not cheap, but can tell if the pup is covered. He might have coverage but could easily have had that vaccination blocked by residual mothers antibodies. 

It seems clear to me that the odds better than 50/50 that every dog will come in contact with Parvo. 

I'm not sure if a pup could carry the virus and not get ill. Seems like I read somewhere that they might be able to. Any secondary issue like worms or bacterial infection like Giarda will surely allow the Parvovirus to get a foothold.

If the pup is healthy and you have a game plan with your vet ahead of time, I could be pursuaded to not have the vaccine. That's just me.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

I did titers on one of my dogs because his vaccine history is unknown. The vet told me that his titer was good, but I should vaccinate anyway because we don't know when the titer levels will drop. :???: That sounds a lot like the logic for excessive puppy vaccines. Then the vet said that even though the levels were very high, they might not stand up to a high challenge (but I was under the impression that the dog has immunity or not. It can't become MORE immune with more vaccinations).

Anyway, I WILL still be doing titers. I feel it is valuable information.

Parvo is a man-made virus created by (insert technical medical jargon) stuff in the poop of cats who recieved the old feline enteritis vaccine. So if a cat has walked across the dirt in the last 20 yrs, consider your dog exposed.


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Just curious, as I'm sure others are, what is the cost of a titer? Obviously varies.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Ted White said:


> Just curious, as I'm sure others are, what is the cost of a titer? Obviously varies.


Maybe $50, which might not include the vet (blood draw) fee.

I have heard of $100 in very expensive areas like San Francisco, Manhattan.

Jean Dodds at http://www.doglogic.com/vaccination.htm
says:

".... Antech Lab, NYC 1-800 872 -1001 (who does our Combo Titers), and also through Hemopet who will also do the Rabies titer . They titer for Distemper, Parvo, Corona at a total cost of $75 PER DOG."


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Well, considering the benefit, that's really quite cheap. I don't know why I thought it was so much more.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Well, it's just the lab cost. Some vet visits are as much as $85 just for the vet to walk into the room.


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

rascals!


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Yeah I was a bit shocked by the price. It was almost $200 for a Rabies vaccine ($30), blood draw and titer lab fee ($75).

The same vet had quoted me $25 for the blood draw. So I'm not sure what happened there. :???:


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

here's a pic from a couple days ago


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Oh wow, if I didn't know better I'd say you stole Yasko! :lol:!

Glad to see he's doing so well!


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## Trish Campbell (Nov 28, 2006)

Very glad to hear he's doing well Ted


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

me too! He was pretty much back on line with all aspects of his GI system on Thursday. The one thing I'll always remember is his great attitude through the whole thing. When he didn't have an appetite, he still had a crazy prey / play drive.

Mike, Amazing the colorations on the back of Yasko and Cairo. Sooo similar


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

I looked at your pup, and I'm like..... wait.... red ears... white mane.... black body... tan paws......... big bone...... YASKO! :lol: :lol:


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Wow, Ted he looks great!!! He IS super pup. I'm so glad he is on the mend.


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## Becky Shilling (Jul 11, 2006)

Well, I need everyone's thoughts for Arian. He is at the Critical Care hosp. on i.v.; diagnosed with parvo this morning. He is 14 weeks. Had first vacc at 7 weeks and second at 12 weeks. Alexis had a very watery stool and threw up on Wednesday, but she is back to 100%. She never did turn down food, though. Ari has not eaten a bite since Thursday evening. Took him in yesterday; didn't look that serious; went home with meds. Straight back in this morning, he looked waaaay worse just overnight attitude wise, + he had the classic blood-tinged stool this morning. Got him checked in and came home to find Ayla acting a little depressed. Yaaaaaaargh!!!! She will eat though, so I've gone ahead and started her on Ari's meds that I have from yesterday. Dammit! We were sooooo careful until we got that second vacc! We literally quarantined our place all the time they were little. Parvo is endemic in our neighborhood, since probably only about 1 out of 10 people vacc their dogs. (That's the one out of ten that even keeps their dogs in their own yards)

Anyway, he's not too dehydrated, (amazingly), but his white count is only 902! Dr. K said they had seen a big outbreak the last two weeks. all with very low WBCs. He has a a little chihuahua pup in there with a count of 700! He said he hasn't lost any though, thank goodness. I called a couple of hours ago and Ari hasn't had any more vomiting or episodes of diarrhea and his temp has come down a full degree. (It was 104.2 this morning) Anyway, need all your prayers for a recovery. He is a such a live wire and Steve's favorite.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Soooo...what's the point of vaccination again?


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## Becky Shilling (Jul 11, 2006)

Well, I can pretty safely bet that without any vaccinations, I would have had seven dead puppies several weeks ago.


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## Hil Harrison (Mar 29, 2006)

Oh Becky Im so sorry to hear. Hang in there Im sure he will be fine. Ted's pup seemed to come through good so hold that in mind. Please keep us posted!!


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Becky I am really, really sorry to hear this. Sounds like you had maternal antibodies still in force with the previous inoculations. This is very difficult to deal with. We'll keep you guys in our thoughts and prayers. Please keep us posted.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Oh Becky, I'm so sorry. I will keep good thoughts and as Ted said, please keep us posted.


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## Becky Shilling (Jul 11, 2006)

Ari looks a teeny bit better today. At least he did stand up and want to go home with us after our visit. Apparently this is a really hot strain. One of the dogs that was in a cage above him, (the chihuahua) was ONE YEAR old. Their younger pup came down two weeks ago, then the older dog broke with it. It went home this morning. One other pup (a Pom Mix) went home last night. I told Ari, "Dammit! If a Chihuahua and a Pomeranian can kick this crap, you'd better do it, too!"

On the home front, Ayla didn't want to eat this morning, so I may be trucking her out for a catheter pretty quick too.

The other three girls are all eating like sharks in a feeding frenzy and look great.


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## Pauline Michels (Sep 1, 2006)

Hope things keep going in a positive direction for you.


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## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

Sorry to hear about the pups....wishing all the best for them.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

fingers crossed for the babies, becky.


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## gisela festerling (Sep 30, 2007)

Becky, got my fingers crossed for ya'.

I have had 4 dogs with parvo over the timespan of 7 years. I also do rescue.
The first had 3 sets of shots. Made it easy. First two not with me.
Second, 3 sets but started at 5 weeks. Made it easy.
Third got it right before the 3rd set after transport across country to my house. Made it easy. Again, shots started at 5 weeks.
Fourth was at the same time as the third, grew up here, was 5 months old and due to other issues had not been vaccinated yet. But was totally isolated again due to other issues. He died.
I will not give vaccines sooner than 7 or 8 weeks.
Then they get 3 sets of shots. After that I get a little less careful and it may be a year and a half before they get vaccinated again.
None of my older dogs that have been with me got sick even with the hot exposure.
There is such a thing as herdhealth. Coming from the old farming days. If the herd is healthy one sick animal is not as dangerous to the whole herd. My vet is concerned about the fact that so many more folks choose not to vaccinate and that the general health of the population may go down. 
It is a point to ponder.
The more I read, the less clear the issue becomes with me. I see good points on either side.
Only thing I know for sure - I hate parvo but hate distemper much worse.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Gisela, the one that died, what 'other' issues did he have?


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## Hil Harrison (Mar 29, 2006)

Anymore news as yet Becky on the pups?


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## Becky Shilling (Jul 11, 2006)

Ari ate today!! Yay!!! Not much, but he was interested which is a huge step forward. Hopefully he will get come home tonight or tomorrow morning. We are treating the others with Tamiflu. Some online research led me to find that there has been some good success with it if you catch them within 48 hours of onset of clinical signs. Three girls show NO symptoms at all, eating like horses, etc. Ayla is depressed and has vomited/had diarrhea, but we started her within the 48 hour window, so hopefully we'll see some good results with her.


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## Hil Harrison (Mar 29, 2006)

Well thats some good news and sounds promising that they will all be fine. Had to smile at the bit about the three girls eating like horses........thats what girls do best:lol: 
Hope that the lil one gets to come back to you tommorow 

please keep us posted here.


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Great News!!!


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## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

Glad to hear Ari is doing better, very good sign that he is eating.


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## Becky Shilling (Jul 11, 2006)

Picked up Ari this morning. He was yelling and yodeling and giving us what for for leaving him. He ate some cooked chicken, but turned his nose up at canned food (something he's never really had anyway). He drank greedily until I made him stop; afraid he'd overdo it. Anyhow, he's home and we're putting a thirty pound turkey in the oven for early Thanksgiving and puppy feeding. 

Ayla is still quite depressed, but she is drinking on her own and then I'm forcing pedialyte and baby food meat down her with her meds and she's holding that down. Still having very runny stools, but she can control it; she'll go out, pee, drink, then blow. Keep your fingers crossed for Ayla that she doesn't have to go on i.v.'s herself.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

hang in there becky! is ayla on sub-q fluids? that might not be a bad idea (it's just what i'd be doing, but--your vet knows best) esp if she's still blowing some....

but hang in


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## Hil Harrison (Mar 29, 2006)

good news Becky that ya got one of the babes back. Hope the other one will be ok and wont have to go in on iv. Fingers crossed here. You must have your work cut out right now.


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## gisela festerling (Sep 30, 2007)

Good news. I agree with maybe looking into the sub-Q fluids.
By the way, I had another pup come down with parvo symptoms (and given all that went on it was suspected of course) but she "only" had a severe bacterial overgrowth and had bloody stool, vomitting and all the signs of parvo.


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Yes Sub Q is quite easy and you can do at home with take home instructions from the vet. He'll show you this: http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/ClientED/dog_fluids.asp


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## Becky Shilling (Jul 11, 2006)

Ayla is looking great today. Racing around, ate well. Ari is still a little slow on the eating, but he is drinking well, barking at the cat and otherwise acting more like his usual self.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Becky Shilling said:


> Ayla is looking great today. Racing around, ate well. Ari is still a little slow on the eating, but he is drinking well, barking at the cat and otherwise acting more like his usual self.


Excellent!


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## Hil Harrison (Mar 29, 2006)

good to hear Becky...hows the other lil one doing now?


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## Becky Shilling (Jul 11, 2006)

Big relief! Everybody looks great today! Ayla is playing and bouncing around, Ari is eating better and playing. One bad thing about his hospitalization/not eating; he is now VERY food-aggressive. Hopefully he'll get over that, but he literally attacked Ayla when she looked at his bowl. He got himself scruffed for it, even though I couldn't blame him.


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Thanks for sharing the great news, Becky!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Becky Shilling said:


> Big relief! Everybody looks great today! Ayla is playing and bouncing around, Ari is eating better and playing. One bad thing about his hospitalization/not eating; he is now VERY food-aggressive. Hopefully he'll get over that, but he literally attacked Ayla when she looked at his bowl. He got himself scruffed for it, even though I couldn't blame him.


Feed them separately.

This is really great news!


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

it really IS great news Becky--even the word "parvo" gives me the creeps. that pups are actually beating it gives me HOPE


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## Hil Harrison (Mar 29, 2006)

great news that all is well with the pups


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## Becky Shilling (Jul 11, 2006)

I just hope this doesn't stunt Ari's growth any. The girls all look like buffaloes next to him now. (They are quite large girls for their age anyway). That is what we wanted and expected with Brago babies! 
We still haven't really made up our minds whether to sell a couple or keep and train them all and sell them green trained. They are all excellent sport prospects and we have already started them on tracking.


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