# Training question.



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Using todays training methods, how would I break and proof, high prey hunting dogs off of livestock, calves, lambs etc, when there is no handler within a mile or so of the dogs?


----------



## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

How are you doing it now?


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Using todays training methods, how would I break and proof, high prey hunting dogs off of livestock, calves, lambs etc, when there is no handler within a mile or so of the dogs?


you would not start with the mile distance...

If it was me I would use punishment and avoidance of those animals, (due to punishment) techniques concerning those animals..

after years of owning dogs that wanted to kill all animals at a very high intensity, that is what worked for me...

It looks a little funny when a 130 lb dog runs away from a 15 lb dog, and actually looks scared of it....but it works...

Disclaimer: I never hunted with dogs...


----------



## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

cover them in french linen


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Setting them up to fail.....fear of getting caught. Pretty much how it has always been done, Leslie. Same way dogs were always house broke and proofed when it came to stopping things that are instinctive to an animal in the house if the owner isn't going to be standing there to supervise.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Setting them up to fail.....fear of getting caught. Pretty much how it has always been done, Leslie. *Same way dogs were always house broke and proofed when it came to stopping things that are instinctive to an animal in the house if the owner isn't going to be standing there to supervise.*


I am ONLY 40...how was it that that WAS done, disregarding modern techniques...???

A boot? a club? what? I like a prong or an Ecollar these days...( a Dogtra Ecollar ) not the tri-tronics...unless I want to beat the dog with the transmitter


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> you would not start with the mile distance...
> 
> If it was me I would use punishment and avoidance of those animals, (due to punishment) techniques concerning those animals..
> 
> ...


That doesn't sound like the modern method of training Joby. Remember, your sitting on the tailgate having a beer or two and the dogs are free ranging through livestock country that is "open range". I believe in todays terminology, these dogs live by the self reward system.


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> I am ONLY 40...how was it that that WAS done, disregarding modern techniques...???
> 
> A boot? a club? what? I like a prong or an Ecollar these days...( a Dogtra Ecollar ) not the tri-tronics...unless I want to beat the dog with the transmitter


Can't use e collars and prongs when you don't know what the dogs are doing or where they are at Joby. Dogs have to be pretty much proofed "before" they get free range priviledges. Same as a dog having free range in your house when it isn't totally housebroke.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Can't use e collars and prongs when you don't know what the dogs are doing or where they are at Joby. Dogs have to be pretty much proofed "before" they get free range priviledges. Same as a dog having free range in your house when it isn't totally housebroke.


OK old geezer..TELL ME...what was it? or how do you do it? disregarding "new" techniques....the BOOT?


----------



## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Put a bitesuit on the livestock and they will be left alone. (at least I think its funny)


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> OK old geezer..TELL ME...what was it? or how do you do it? disregarding "new" techniques....the BOOT?


Joby, I am asking the question. How would "trainers" today do it using modern training methods. I know how it has always been done. Todays methods are so much better, so, I was wondering how they would do it. Pretty simple. I was grilled recently on I house break a dog without a crate and never have an accident in the house. Makes me wonder if new methods have given way to half assed trained dogs. The simple answer is "you can't do it".


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

will fernandez said:


> Put a bitesuit on the livestock and they will be left alone. (at least I think its funny)


Or coat them in BEDLINER (truck) substrate.. I saw it on mythbusters..dogs DO NOT like biting bedliner...


----------



## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> Or coat them in BEDLINER (truck) substrate.. I saw it on mythbusters..dogs DO NOT like biting bedliner...


LMAO! sure sounds modern


Are these hypothetical dogs mature or are we starting with pups? Obviously pups would be much easier. Hoping for high food drive to boot.

Bring pups around the animals and feed for focus away from them. Pups only eat their food in this manner, countless repetitions, gradually add movement of the animals, continue to feed for ignoring...add more movement more animals.. 

If they grow up completely desensitized to the existence and movement.. but they would need an outlet other wise you could end up getting the prey behaviour as a default out of sheer boredom. So do these dogs have some sort of a job? Why are they there to begin with? Are they herding? In which case you don't want to teach them to ignore the animals.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Joby, I am asking the question. How would "trainers" today do it using modern training methods. I know how it has always been done. Todays methods are so much better, so, I was wondering how they would do it. Pretty simple. I was grilled recently on I house break a dog without a crate and never have an accident in the house. Makes me wonder if new methods have given way to half assed trained dogs. The simple answer is "you can't do it".


OK old ass trainer,...HOW IS IT DONE...(not using new-fangled techniques)


----------



## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> Or coat them in BEDLINER (truck) substrate.. I saw it on mythbusters..dogs DO NOT like biting bedliner...


we use a bedliner coating in the aluminum canine carrier in the crusiers. Removes all rattles, makes them water proof and adds some sound deading.

dFrost


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

David Frost said:


> we use a bedliner coating in the aluminum canine carrier in the crusiers. Removes all rattles, makes them water proof and adds some sound deading.
> 
> dFrost


I know DON is likeable BUT dont stand up for him..................


----------



## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Joby, I am asking the question. How would "trainers" today do it using modern training methods. I know how it has always been done. Todays methods are so much better, so, I was wondering how they would do it. Pretty simple.* I was grilled recently on I house break a dog without a crate and never have an accident in the house. Makes me wonder if new methods have given way to half assed trained dogs. The simple answer is "you can't do it".[/*QUOTE]
> 
> That 's a lot of shite Don. We've already been there and done that !


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

will fernandez said:


> Put a bitesuit on the livestock and they will be left alone. (at least I think its funny)


/end thread


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

maggie fraser said:


> Don Turnipseed said:
> 
> 
> > Joby, I am asking the question. How would "trainers" today do it using modern training methods. I know how it has always been done. Todays methods are so much better, so, I was wondering how they would do it. Pretty simple.* I was grilled recently on I house break a dog without a crate and never have an accident in the house. Makes me wonder if new methods have given way to half assed trained dogs. The simple answer is "you can't do it".[/*QUOTE]
> ...


----------



## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> maggie fraser said:
> 
> 
> > hUH>?
> ...


----------



## Jim Delbridge (Jan 27, 2010)

here we go again.

In the old days when trust was in a higher commodity, I walked a lot of ranches and farms with my dogs. I always made a point of stopping by to visit with the landowners before stepping onto their land. I always told them straight-faced that if they saw any of my dogs on their land chasing their stock that they had my persmission to shoot them, but please call me to let me know. I wanted to pick up the body if nothing else.
That being said, I always took a long-line with me if the puppy appeared to want to chase cattle or any other stock. Like now, I'd let the long-line drag and would correct verbally as I was stepping on the end, giving the dog a chance to put on the brakes before it would get a hard self-correction.
As I've had to perform searches on lands with cattle, having this attitude has come in handy as I've literally been followed by cattle as my dog worked all over fields.

Those with a lot of ready cash can do the same with a stim collar these days, but I still prefer the long line.

I don't let my dogs roam. I never have. I get upset with people that move out to the country from the city and let their dogs have free reign with the excuse, "well, aren't we in the country now?" I know a lot of people in the country with dogs that are off-lead and the dog never leaves the fence line for the road or goes off into the woods. When it comes to chasing the meat off someone elses's stock, it's no different than taking money out of their pocket..... Course, I was raised by depression era survivors. 

Jim Delbridge


----------



## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> maggie fraser said:
> 
> 
> > hUH>?
> ...


----------



## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Jim Delbridge said:


> That being said, I always took a long-line with me if the puppy appeared to want to chase cattle or any other stock. Like now, I'd let the long-line drag and would correct verbally as I was stepping on the end, giving the dog a chance to put on the brakes before it would get a hard self-correction.
> As I've had to perform searches on lands with cattle, having this attitude has come in handy as I've literally been followed by cattle as my dog worked all over fields.
> 
> Those with a lot of ready cash can do the same with a stim collar these days, but I still prefer the long line.
> ...


Yep, I live on a farm and I never let my dogs roam unless I am with them and we are hunting rabbits and I really reinforce the recall all the time from puppyhood under all sorts of distractions and I will verbally correct them if they look like they want to leave my boundary, which isnt often as I have quite a lot of acres. 

I also use the long line as you describe on my pups as do a few of the older stockmen. Pups with stock - they can get so excited that even a good recall can go out the window which is where the long line is handy and they soon learn that they get a good hard self correction if they dont comply. Some pups dont need this and learn quickly with the heavy recall by positive reinforcement training.

I heavily train them from the go that they do not chase stock. The only time they are permitted to interact with stock is when we are working them. Their instincts to work stock are very high and it certainly doesnt put them off. They learn there is a difference between working and chasing. In sign of chasing means they dont get to work or they self correct with the long line.

When I first moved to the country I had a very prey driven adult cattle dog and I have to say that I did spank her several times for chasing and refusing to rcall and she soon got the message. But I havent had to do that with any of my others.

Not sure if that answers your question regards hunting.


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Sara Waters said:


> Not sure if that answers your question regards hunting.


Not really Sara. First, the dogs are not just roaming at will. They are taken out to hunt and are of no use hunting within boundaries. Their job is to cover whatever ground necessary to produce the game. They are equiped with tracking collars so I can find them, but, may be working country 5 to 10 miles away from me. Really just depends on where their noses take them. It may be private property or National forest land. The dogs need to be broke off all livestock and proofed before being given the right to hunt freerange style. Can it be done with modern training techniques and how? In otherwords, they have to be bulletproof to calfs and lambs taking off at a run even when you are miles away.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

DON

hey you old-ass curmudgeon,,,how about you share YOUR methods..instead of downplaying others' attempts at helping you do what you already do


----------



## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

You said you can't use an e-collar because the dogs have to be away from you...but you can certainly arrange for a scenario where the dogs are away from you but in sight to set them up for some aversive training with an e-collar if you so choose it. Is that what you mean by modern training?

This is not too different from doing the aversive "by hand" or at the end of a long line? 

The e-collar has the benefit of you being able to set them up from quite a distance from you while you are proofing. That said, I would likely start them on a leash, to a long line, to free, even with the e-collar...increasing distance and freedom as you proof over a few sessions.

You can also set them up so that they think the correction is coming from "GOD" so to speak, or from you if you so choose it, or even from the thing you don't want them to chase.

It would be great if you could in the later stages of proofing be able to set something up where they could ignore the bad thing, and then get in scent of the good thing, and be praised, or just rewarded by the chase of the proper thing.

These are all just musings for your application. I have only used an e-collar to prevent game chasing with my malinois, I didn't need it with my Toller (except for CATS). I am not exaggerating when I say we have a lot of wildlife here.

I did a bunch of stuff first that you would never do, or need to do for your application....such as teaching a bunch of positive recalls, and leave it commands first, manipulating the environment to reduce the opportunity for the dog to chase game when it was young, and introducing the e-collar to the dog in a more positive way (and learning how to turn stim off) before using it in the woods.


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> DON
> 
> hey you old-ass curmudgeon,,,how about you share YOUR methods..instead of downplaying others' attempts at helping you do what you already do


Joby, I already know how to do it. Just looking to the new improved training techniques for a better way where there is no room for using fear as a deterent. I shared how to housebreak and proof a dog for the house recently with no accidents....ever.....but was chastized because I yelled at the dog.


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> You said you can't use an e-collar because the dogs have to be away from you...but you can certainly arrange for a scenario where the dogs are away from you but in sight to set them up for some aversive training with an e-collar if you so choose it. Is that what you mean by modern training?
> 
> This is not too different from doing the aversive "by hand" or at the end of a long line?
> 
> ...


The ecaller has made a lot of the trashbreaking easier for sure Jennifer. I don't use one but it is a great tool in the right hands.


----------



## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Using todays training methods, how would I break and proof, high prey hunting dogs off of livestock, calves, lambs etc, when there is no handler within a mile or so of the dogs?


First you have Dave Colborn fly in and put on a cow suit.....


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Using todays training methods, how would I break and proof, high prey hunting dogs off of livestock, calves, lambs etc, when there is no handler within a mile or so of the dogs?



That's a situation I wouldn't put a dog in without previous work. 
If it happens, it happens but it's also a situation that you train for BEFORE the situation arises.


----------



## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

..............


----------



## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Not sure what you mean by "todays training methods" but I'd use my crittering protocol. CLICK HERE. It has the dog doing the work of not starting the chase in the first place whether the handler is around or not and it does not make the dog afraid of the prey animal as the old style of crittering with an Ecollar often did. ucastle.com/critter.htm"]CLICK HERE[/URL] It has the dog doing the work of not starting the chase in the first place whether the handler is around or not and it does not make the dog afraid of the prey animal as the old style of crittering with an Ecollar often did.


----------



## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Don I use a chicken or two with ALL my dogs. If a darting chicken running for his life wont tempt them nothing will. Train it just like anything else. Teach and show them what you want!!


----------



## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Brian Anderson said:


> Don I use a chicken or two with ALL my dogs. If a darting chicken running for his life wont tempt them nothing will. Train it just like anything else. Teach and show them what you want!!


 I guess I should be forthcoming with the fact that the way I do it isn't for the soft or squeamish but the dog suffers no lasting effect and in the end he gets to eat the chicken :wink:


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Brian Anderson said:


> I guess I should be forthcoming with the fact that the way I do it isn't for the soft or squeamish but the dog suffers no lasting effect and in the end he gets to eat the chicken :wink:


I've seen a dead chicken tied around the neck of a working line JRT that got in a chicken killing habit. Old school method that is supposed to make the dog sick of the smell.
After 3-4 days you couldn't go near the dog but she thought she was the hottest shit on the planet with her neat smelling necklace. 
Same dog was put in a barrel with a live chicken and rolled down a hill. Another old school cure. :roll:
The barrel was opened, the chicken came out, the dog staggered after it and killed it. :grin:
I've never had a working terrier that I couldn't call off a chase. Ya gotta work on it BEFORE it becomes a problem, regardless of the method used. :wink:


----------



## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Not really Sara. First, the dogs are not just roaming at will. They are taken out to hunt and are of no use hunting within boundaries. Their job is to cover whatever ground necessary to produce the game. They are equiped with tracking collars so I can find them, but, may be working country 5 to 10 miles away from me. Really just depends on where their noses take them. It may be private property or National forest land. The dogs need to be broke off all livestock and proofed before being given the right to hunt freerange style. Can it be done with modern training techniques and how? In otherwords, they have to be bulletproof to calfs and lambs taking off at a run even when you are miles away.


Good thing you dont do it over here then. Most farmers will shoot a strange dog venturing on to their properties especially if livestock are running. We have a lot of problem with wild dogs in some areas and it is shoot first and ask questions later and lots of baits.

I would imangine that an intensive schedule of positive reinforcement and correction when required is probably going to be required from very early on. I can think of a number of ways you could do it. You dont mention how you currently do it, with your reference to housbreaking without a crate, does it involve yelling? Heck I yell at my cattle dog if she even looks funny at my sheep. 

I housebreak all my dogs without a crate but I dont recall yelling at them LOL. Interfering with livestock is entirely different.


----------



## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Don is just trying to play stump the chump here. What he's asking is how to teach the major impulse control. And his objective is not train it. It's to prove that today's training is bullshit. Okay, it's bullshit. cause I no more than Don give one shit how I would train this.

So, I will start Don off in the right direction though. Put a small pile of food on your floor. And without using any force, any complusion, no collars, no corrections. Get the dog to not touch the food....I will make it even easier than your goal. You can be right there, as close as you want.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

"Put a small pile of food on your floor. And without using any force, any complusion, no collars, no corrections. Get the dog to not touch the food....I will make it even easier than your goal. You can be right there, as close as you want. __________________"


 DAMN! Jim, you must be magic! :-D:wink:


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Lou Castle said:


> Not sure what you mean by "todays training methods" but I'd use my crittering protocol. CLICK HERE. It has the dog doing the work of not starting the chase in the first place whether the handler is around or not and it does not make the dog afraid of the prey animal as the old style of crittering with an Ecollar often did. ucastle.com/critter.htm"]CLICK HERE[/URL] It has the dog doing the work of not starting the chase in the first place whether the handler is around or not and it does not make the dog afraid of the prey animal as the old style of crittering with an Ecollar often did.


Lou, just getting back to this thread. Your link'click here" isn't working for me.


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Marta Wajngarten said:


> LMAO! sure sounds modern
> 
> 
> Are these hypothetical dogs mature or are we starting with pups? Obviously pups would be much easier. Hoping for high food drive to boot.
> ...


Marta, they are primarily big game dogs that hunt in packs of 2 to 3. You are on the right track with desensatising them as pups, but, I do no understand the need for high food drive or feeding the dogs away from the livestock at all.


----------



## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

James Downey said:


> Don is just trying to play stump the chump here. What he's asking is how to teach the major impulse control. And his objective is not train it. It's to prove that today's training is bullshit. Okay, it's bullshit. cause I no more than Don give one shit how I would train this.
> .


Does Don mean training with food as modern training methods? 

I train with food and toys for agility and obedience, but I certainly dont train my sheepdogs to herd with treats. The reward is to work sheep and then to shape their instincts around this. They learn very early on not to harass sheep and the distinction between working and chasing.

The potential to hurt stock with roaming hunting dogs is serious business as is causing heavily pregnant animals to run even if the dog is just tracking through someones paddock far from the handlers influence. 

I would imagine training would have to occur very early on with all the animals in questions. Discrimination between what a prey animal is when working and a non target animal. 

It would be important to completely instill that discrimination. I would imagine it could be done as I said before with an intense schedule of reinforcement and correction to completely condition the dog from puppyhood. Could it be done with rewarding and reinforcing the dog with its prey animal for ignoring the non target animal? so the dog is completely focussed on the scent of the prey animal in lieu of any other livestock it crosses on it path. It would be serious conditioning. I would see the target animal as the reward rather than food as treats.

Have no idea if I am on the rigth track here but taking a punt anyway, given my expereince with working livestock, where food as treats is of little value to the dogs.


----------



## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Lou, just getting back to this thread. Your link'click here" isn't working for me.


Well that's irritating. Try this. Http://loucastle.com/critter.htm


----------



## Brandon Rhodes (Nov 3, 2011)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Using todays training methods, how would I break and proof, high prey hunting dogs off of livestock, calves, lambs etc, when there is no handler within a mile or so of the dogs?





Lou Castle said:


> Well that's irritating. Try this. Http://loucastle.com/critter.htm


 New to the thread, this is some funny stuff are these real or is there a inside joke , I really dont know? I like the barrel and chicken idea getting your dog all kinds of mixed up and he still kills the chicken. Sounds like a high driver dog to me .


----------



## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Welcome Brandon, please introduce yourself here: http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f20/

As for the thread, I think you'll find some are: I heard this; This will work; and some are just the standard b.s. lines. At any rate, I know you'll enjoy the forum. It has some extremely knowledgeable and even quirky folks. 

DFrost


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

James Downey said:


> Don is just trying to play stump the chump here. What he's asking is how to teach the major impulse control. And his objective is not train it. It's to prove that today's training is bullshit. Okay, it's bullshit. cause I no more than Don give one shit how I would train this.
> 
> So, I will start Don off in the right direction though. Put a small pile of food on your floor. And without using any force, any complusion, no collars, no corrections. Get the dog to not touch the food....I will make it even easier than your goal. You can be right there, as close as you want.


LOL Your pretty sharp James. I really expected a few to tell me it could be done. Liked you situation of putting food down and expecting to get the dog to not touch it without using force, compultion, collars or corrections. Can't be done, but there are those that think they can train around it. Problem is you have to be there to make the dog "appear" to be trained. That leads me to wonder about terminology today, specifically the term "trained". Obviously it means something different to everyone today. To me, a dog trained to retrieve, will retrieve anything it is told to retrieve, any where, anytime. With that in mind, is a dog really trained, if it will only perform under a training scenario on a specific field with a specific decoy? That is not a "trained dog" if he will only perform when the situation suits what he has been conditioned to. A trained dog does what he is told to do. 

Hunting dogs is one of the oldest forms using dogs. They have always been stock broke. They have to be. James is right, you are stopping something instictive in the dog. It is the dogs very nature but it isn't that hard to stop when correctly done.


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Brandon Rhodes said:


> New to the thread, this is some funny stuff are these real or is there a inside joke , I really dont know? I like the barrel and chicken idea getting your dog all kinds of mixed up and he still kills the chicken. Sounds like a high driver dog to me .


Welcome Brandon. You got to keep an open mind here, I will say that.


----------



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Re post 24, dogs working 5-10 miles, self banning here of late but as noone else is going to call bs i will, don thats bs. no hunter in any tradition works at that range. i have worked the best of the best in the states and oz, a dog that will work at that range is a genetic trait that will be culled. 

u hunting rabbits in iraq??

secondly if a dog makes a find and hasn't got the job done within a half mile max it will also be culled.

i won't even go into all the practical reasons why the concept is ridiculous because i'm feeling liking don actually doesn't hunt with dogs, photos of fresh dogs timidly standing next to a dead pig does not a hunter make.

can't believe u guys didn't make this call yr selves WTF, does anyone here actually even own dogs.


----------



## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Re post 24, dogs working 5-10 miles, self banning here of late but as noone else is going to call bs i will, don thats bs. no hunter in any tradition works at that range. i have worked the best of the best in the states and oz, a dog that will work at that range is a genetic trait that will be culled.
> 
> u hunting rabbits in iraq??
> 
> ...


Pete....are you saying Don is a bullshitter and does not work his dogs and he uses trick photography to make them look like catch dogs? 

I see another test on the horizon :mrgreen:


----------



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Haha not any real tricks to it, yours is one interpretation lol.

have had sl breeders get photos of their dog standing next to a herd of cattle and next thing their website has the pic with caption correct dogs that work or something similarly lame.

i expect its the same with pics of dogs with sleeves in their mouths.

broadens your market base without having to change yr breeding plan or bother to train and test yr dogs, makes sense from a sales point of view.


----------



## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> the concept is ridiculous because i'm feeling liking don actually doesn't hunt with dogs, photos of fresh dogs timidly standing next to a dead pig does not a hunter make.


 
I was trying to intrepret your post? Can you expound on what you mean then so I understand what you are trying to say!


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Peter ovbviously doesn't get out much and he would never say such an ignorant thing if he did. Five miles is very conservative. Lots of time we pick the dogs up over above Oakhurst which is 18 mi. Peter obviously has never run much live game like bears. LMAO. The properties I hunt are 6,000 to 10,000 acres and the dogs are off the property most the time. Peter must hunt with short range breeds, if at all....they were bred for his kind of hunting. My kind is sitting on the tailgate and having a few cold ones while the dogs hunt. That's why we use them. That is also why they have to be bullet proof with stock.


----------



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Doug Zaga said:


> I was trying to intrepret your post? Can you expound on what you mean then so I understand what you are trying to say!


Doug i will expound on what i mean when i know what the word expound means lol.


----------



## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Doug i will expound on what i mean when i know what the word expound means lol.


LMAO...Don't you aussies have google???

EXPLAIN...


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Peter, here is a link so you can try to educate youself

http://www.huntingairedales.com/huntingphotos.htm

Damned, there are even pictures there that don't show the dogs because they are stiched up in the truck already.


----------



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

18mi now.......... faaaaaaark sweet jesus and mary.


people here that do agility, SAR, FR....flyball.........whatever must know from general sport dog ownership that this is absurd.


does not need expounding, lol.


as i said, does anyone here actually own a dog?


----------



## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

I doubt if anyone is Australia hunts like Don describes, too many guns and fox baits to navigate. Most guys I know that hunt like to be part of the action rather than sitting on a tailgate waiting. Dogs are not allowed in national parks and everything else is on private property where you have to have written permission from the owner to hunt on if you have a gun.

I suppose station country where properties are often a million acres or more might be different, but I think on those they often hunt vermin like donkeys and camels from choppers.


----------



## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> 18mi now.......... faaaaaaark sweet jesus and mary.


I have no problem believing that hunting dogs are picked up 18 miles from where they started the hunt. Why? Because I have found a few hounds in my day and returned them to their owners, that had cut them loose on whatever game, "x" amount of time before.

Now my question is, were they always really hunting the whole time? Or do they sometimes loose scent, get lost?

And how do you normally call your dogs home in complex terrain? 

Once they are out of range of your collars...then what?

What do people do to keep them IN range?

What IS the range on most collars?

If they go out of range, how do you even know if they got something?

How many do people loose dogs, because I see posters for lost hunting dogs every season?

Granted the terrain here is pretty extreme compared to where Don is, he probably gets more range on his collars (not so many pieces of terrain in the way), and I imagine he can drive all over trying to find the dogs to get into a place where he can pick up their signal.

The last dog I picked up was 7 miles from were his hunt had started. (I just measured it on an old fashion topo map ) Not so far, but it was up and over a mountain pass from where he started and there was some SIGNIFICANT elevation gain involved.

Of course the dog was apparently not that "trash-broke" because when I found him, he had a face full of quills. I am sure that is not the "game" the hunter had in mind LOL.


----------



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Your dogs are seriously shit if game can get that far with a dog on em, and yr seriously shit if ya leave yr dog hanging while walk, run, drive that far to support yr team member that long

thats right yr drinkin beer sitting on the tail gate.

hell why not just give the dog the keys to the truck n let it take itself hunting.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Peter,

I think most of us don't hunt so can't even envision the scenario. I'm trying to figure out if you pick the dogs up 18 miles away, where's the quarry? How do you know he has it--tracking collar? Does the collar indicate movement or just location and you know if he's in that location for a certain period of time. 18 miles away and you are considerably behind the dog and certainly can't back him up. In the past Don indicated that they were locator dogs, not catch. So how do you get there in time to shoot or do they corner the quarry?

T


----------



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Jen. u answered all yr own questions.

u found someone else's dog, where was the handler, no dog and no prey lol.

same for rest of yr post. u cant see that??


----------



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

T, i cant answer any of those questions cos i never been in any of those situations.

none of what u describe sounds like hunting, sounds more like a **** up.



ask don.


----------



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

I know a guy that just quit his day job to train 8 detection dogs for a gov contract, feeding his family off it.

how many city blocks does 18mi translate to??

i'm getting a randy hare video n some'dales then i'm gonna tell my boss to go shove it in his...

me, don n a few good 'dales will get every last bag o weed out of cali in a week.


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> I have no problem believing that hunting dogs are picked up 18 miles from where they started the hunt. Why? Because I have found a few hounds in my day and returned them to their owners, that had cut them loose on whatever game, "x" amount of time before.
> 
> Now my question is, were they always really hunting the whole time? Or do they sometimes loose scent, get lost?


Big game dogs are not pets nor house dogs as a rule, Jen. They are housed and fed all year just for hunting season. When the dogs are in the field, they hunt and they hunt until they find game. Most of these dogs are real tracking dogs and can move a cold track for miles. If they don't hunt, they are put down. No body is going to try to make a silk purse out of a sows ear. If they lose a scent, they go until they find another.



Jennifer Coulter said:


> And how do you normally call your dogs home in complex terrain?


You get close enough and try to call them in. If they don't come, or can't, you go get them. 



Jennifer Coulter said:


> Once they are out of range of your collars...then what?


You drive to the high spots in the ara over differnt drainages until you pick up a signal and go from there.



Jennifer Coulter said:


> What do people do to keep them IN range?


If you are worried abouit that, you don't turn them loose to start with. Hunt Peter style.



Jennifer Coulter said:


> What IS the range on most collars?


They vary according to what you want to spend. Mine are good for 8 miles oif I remember right. The telemetry collars are good for 8,000 to 16,000 hours. I use the 8,000 hour ones because they weigh half as much as a 16,000 hour collar. *.000 comntinuaous hours is a lot of hunting. Then they have to be sent in for new batteries.
Then there are GPS collars that probably have tremendous range, but, they are illegal in Ca.....as are tree switches which indicate if the dog is treed and looking up.



Jennifer Coulter said:


> If they go out of range, how do you even know if they got something?


You don't until you find them



Jennifer Coulter said:


> How many do people loose dogs, because I see posters for lost hunting dogs every season?


If you hunt, your going to lose your dogs on occassion. I have lost mine for up to 3 days in the wilderness. Lost a 6 mo old pup once for three days. Most dog owners wouldn't even cut there dogs loose to hunt.



Jennifer Coulter said:


> Granted the terrain here is pretty extreme compared to where Don is, he probably gets more range on his collars (not so many pieces of terrain in the way), and I imagine he can drive all over trying to find the dogs to get into a place where he can pick up their signal.


Jen, I am 30 minutes outside of Yosemite. Madera peak is about 30 minutes from here also and is 12,500 feet. I know you have seen pictures of Yosemite. This is the Sierra Nevadas. You have to know the country and the logging roads because there is only one paved road that ends in the middle of hunting country. There is so much granite facings here that the transmitter signal bounces and you have to learn to read the signal. Hope that answers some of the questions. The reality is, the dogs don't have to be far at all to be totally out of handler control. Gov't sells grazing rights so there is livestock everywhere, even on public land.

The last dog I picked up was 7 miles from were his hunt had started. (I just measured it on an old fashion topo map ) Not so far, but it was up and over a mountain pass from where he started and there was some SIGNIFICANT elevation gain involved.

Of course the dog was apparently not that "trash-broke" because when I found him, he had a face full of quills. I am sure that is not the "game" the hunter had in mind LOL.[/QUOTE]


----------



## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Sorry about the confusion. I didn't realize you were hunting IN the mountains proper. If you are hunting in terrain like this than "touche" my friend:
http://www.panoramio.com/photo/1718134

Something about truck access only, and grazing livestock gave me a different impression, more foothills and more open terrain, maybe I was wrong.


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

The Cheshire Hunt in England, after various fruitless efforts over the years, used to drive their JRTs in a van to the place where the Foxhounds had driven a fox to earth and then, and only then, did they let them out directly in front it.

We bought Nick, our JRT, from the kennels that supplied the Cheshire Hunt. Very friendly to humans but would attack animals many times his size if he got the chance.


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Sorry about the confusion. I didn't realize you were hunting IN the mountains proper. If you are hunting in terrain like this than "touche" my friend:
> http://www.panoramio.com/photo/1718134
> 
> Something about truck access only, and grazing livestock gave me a different impression, more foothills and more open terrain, maybe I was wrong.


Actually, Jen, I prefer hunting the valley floors. Problem is, one the dogs are turned loose, there is just no way to tell where the race is going. Every year there are people hiring climbers to go down and get their dogs that are ledged. When you stop and think about it, the hazards are much like dogs losing their teeth on a bite suit. Nothing in life is free, except maybe thoughts from Peters personal fantasy world. One of the biggest hazzards is do gooders stealing your dogs to give them a better life on a couch.


----------



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Ducks are cheap!!!


----------



## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> LOL Your pretty sharp James. I really expected a few to tell me it could be done. Liked you situation of putting food down and expecting to get the dog to not touch it without using force, compultion, collars or corrections. Can't be done,


 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipT5k1gaXhc


----------



## Charles Guyer (Nov 6, 2009)

9 shot works good for trash breaking. The modern equivalent is using bismuth as opposed to lead.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Don...

I remember you saying that your dogs are not catch dogs..and preferrably do not engage the hogs...unless I am drunk again...

SO how does the hunt work if the dogs are NOT catch dogs, and they are up 18 miles away from you?

Just curious, honestly cant figure it out....

For that matter, did you ever share your secret on HOW you get those young pups to stay on that pillow as part of your housebreaking? if so, what post was it in?


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Doug Zaga said:


> LMAO...Don't you aussies have google???
> 
> EXPLAIN...


Doug,

Actually Google was invented by the famous Australian female tennis player of the 1970's and early 1980's
Evonne Googlegong


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Doug,
> 
> Actually Google was invented by the famous Australian female tennis player of the 1970's and early 1980's
> Evonne Googlegong


:-o WOW! Your old too huh! :lol: :wink:


----------



## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> Don...
> 
> I remember you saying that your dogs are not catch dogs..and preferrably do not engage the hogs...unless I am drunk again...
> 
> ...


;-) i would like to know that too.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

brad robert said:


> ;-) i would like to know that too.


easy questions in my mind.


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> :-o WOW! Your old too huh! :lol: :wink:


65 on 12/15....is that old? I'm getting too senile to remember ;-)


----------



## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Thomas Barriano said:


> 65 on 12/15....is that old? I'm getting too senile to remember ;-)


I'll be 65 on Elvis's next birthday. Hopefully, I'll be around to see it. He won't.

DFrost


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

David Frost said:


> I'll be 65 on Elvis's next birthday. Hopefully, I'll be around to see it. *He won't.*
> 
> DFrost



I've heard different. :lol:

http://www.elvis-is-alive.com/


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> Don...
> 
> I remember you saying that your dogs are not catch dogs..and preferrably do not engage the hogs...unless I am drunk again...
> 
> ...


Dogs learn things with experience. They learn I do the killing and that they need to contain the animal until I get there. If the dogs know I am just about there, so does the hog. That is when the rodeo starts. The hog is determined to leave, the dogs are more determined he isn't leaving. That is when the catching starts if necessary.

As for keeping two pups on the pillow.....As I recall I was informed that anyone with working dogs knows how to housebreak pups. In fact, I was informed numerous times. Needless to say I didn't see any point in elaborating further. Obviously anyone with working dogs can control a couple of pups. ROTFLMAO :wink: :grin:


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Sorry about the humor Joby, but, that ship has sailed. I will suggest you ask Nancy how to do it because she knows everything pertaining to pups. If not, maybe she should out a sock in it when speaking for "everyone". :wink:


----------



## David Petruescu (Aug 19, 2011)

I do believe that bay dogs can hunt that far especially when hunting bear and especially in his terrain. 

I think this is an age old problem with hunting dogs. Trash can mean anything other then the wanted game species (deer in the wrong season, racoons...) but cattle are especially bad because the rancher can/may shoot the dog 

Don, don't know new from old but isn't the normal process to ensure that the dog is started to hunt close so that you can correct and only when proven is he allowed to hunt far.

That may mean having the dog around cattle and ensuring (e-Collar) that he doesn't give chase even when the cattle is spooked. 

I don't know any/many dogs that are totally trash broke and it's hard to know what they are up to when they are that far away.

I do agree that one starts off, as with most things, choosing the right breeding and the "teaching/learning" part may be easier. I've seen dog lines that are very serious about certain game, but care less about others, while others just love to chase.

I still think that a rewards based system can improve the chances that your dog will stay on the right quarry.

Just my 2c.


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Joby just so you know, I can put a whole litter of 8 or 10 pups on that bed and they will all behave. It isn't a matter of "how to get a couple of pups" to stay there. Nancy will fill you in I am sure.


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Don,

Two questions?
What kind of doggy downers to you use to control your dogs?

How many litters do you have a year? Seems like you've got an endless supply of puppies for pictures every couple of weeks and the all look the same. Do you sell them like cigarettes by the pack or buy three get two free?


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Don,
> 
> Two questions?
> What kind of doggy downers to you use to control your dogs?
> ...


Had 3 litters this year Thomas. Been putting all the in heat females with the German dog. Got zip until this litter on Thanksgiving. Don't need doggie downers....just raise em like dogs Thomas. Most problem you folks have you created yourselves. I have seen enough pups and dogs over the years to know what makes them tick. Pretty simple stuff really. I keep telling y'all it isn't rocket science. Thomas, you don't get to twelve generations listening to people that don't have a clue. Yes, I do give a fair number of dogs away.....to whom I feel like. That is how I got them into a lot of venues. I may keep this whole 12 gen litter. I know I am going to keep 4, may as well keep the other two. Depending on what the venue is, I seldom give females for proving for obvious reasons you should understand.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Thomas Barriano said:


> 65 on 12/15....is that old? I'm getting too senile to remember ;-)



Gotcha beat by 15 months! :razz: .........I hope to keep that gap going also. :lol:


----------

