# hunt V prey



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

hi i think i have a handle on prey drive, now you talk about hunt drive; is this the same thing ie are the words interchangeable or is it different? sorry if the answer is already on a thread, please direct me to the right thread.

cheers


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Prey is the willingness to chase a moving object.
Hunt is the willingness to keep looking for it for an extended time after it's out of sight. 
Of course there will be 1,468 different opinions of this. :lol:;-)


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

so if it chases something it can't see it's hunt drive, if it sees it it's prey drive?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

That's "MY" simple view of it. There are so many discussions and disagreements on what drives are and if they even exist.
You can hardly win (or loose) on the discussions. :lol:


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Bob is right......I have seen folks almost come to blows about it.....big arguments about how to start a SAR dog (Runaways using prey vs Imprinting in hunt drive) and even about the terminology though I most commonly think of the sequence as Hunt-Prey-Catch-Kill

Honestly, I think there are many ways to skin a cat. We think too much. Dogs just do it.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

I was given this definiton by someone a few months back. "Prey is the need of the dog to fill its mouth not eat or chew...just get whatever it wants in its mouth"

I like the definition it fits for my dogs.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

In working dog terms..

toss some food pieces all over the lawn for a puppy, you will see hunt drive as he looks for them...

Hide a toy in the house or outside, and tell dog to "find" it, you will see hunt drive as the dog looks for it.

simple examples in regards to what most people think I'd guess.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I have also heard

Prey = visual
Hunt = olfactory


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> I have also heard
> 
> Prey = visual
> Hunt = olfactory


i was going to say something like that too, but that would be more complicated..

I would say that dogs can use visual in hunt too though...to keep it simple and agreeable..


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> i was going to say something like that too, but that would be more complicated..
> 
> I would say that dogs can use visual in hunt too though...to keep it simple and agreeable..


 
doesn't he have to have prey to find the object as well regarless of sight or smell? Think about it..dog has to know what he is looking for (OBJECT) in order to HUNT for it regardless or sight or smell, thus having prey for the hunt. I think hunt is more of a trait of prey. Most dogs with very good hunt have crazy prey don't they? And weaker prey dogs lose interest in the hunt as well don't they? 

Of course talking averages, but I don't look at it as sight or smell, I think the hunt is more of a trait of the prey.


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## Kerry Foose (Feb 20, 2010)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> I have also heard
> 
> Prey = visual
> Hunt = olfactory


this has been my philosophy as well.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Jody Butler said:


> doesn't he have to have prey to find the object as well regarless of sight or smell? Think about it..dog has to know what he is looking for (OBJECT) in order to HUNT for it regardless or sight or smell, thus having prey for the hunt. I think hunt is more of a trait of prey. Most dogs with very good hunt have crazy prey don't they? And weaker prey dogs lose interest in the hunt as well don't they?
> 
> Of course talking averages, but I don't look at it as sight or smell, I think the hunt is more of a trait of the prey.


way to keep it nice and simple..this ought to clear it up...
I have never seen a dog that has low prey hunt for anything...except food..


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> way to keep it nice and simple..this ought to clear it up...
> I have never seen a dog that has low prey hunt for anything...except food..


I agree, but can never say never on the WDF, someone is sure to say otherwise...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Jody Butler said:


> I agree, but can never say never on the WDF, someone is sure to say otherwise...


i said I have never seen it LOL...not saying someone else hasn't...

so if a dog with very little prey will hunt for food but nothing else, what is that?? LOL


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

I guess my 2 cents would be: yes hunt is an extension of prey, but it is the willingness to continue looking for the prey in the absence of any additional stimulus. Air Scent dogs search for a prey they dont see or smell (no trail). 
Some dogs will look forever for the lost ball/ person/ food item. I have a dog I have to call off of lost balls when it is time to go home and it isnt easy. Other dogs will lose interest ,forget what they are doing or get distracted with other smells more easily.

I do believe that this 'drive' can be affected by training.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

joby becker said:


> i said i have never seen it lol...not saying someone else hasn't...
> 
> So if a dog with very little prey will hunt for food but nothing else, what is that?? Lol


hungry


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Bob Scott said:


> Prey is the willingness to chase a moving object.
> Hunt is the willingness to keep looking for it for an extended time after it's out of sight.


I like this, short and simple.

And now I'll be "that person" LOL

I actually have seen dogs with low prey, and higher (note I didn't say HIGH, but higher) hunt drive. Dogs that if you throw the ball may or may not go chase it, or might chase it but won't pick it up or even run all the way to it, but if you hide that ball will spend 3 or 4 minutes searching for it. And if they find it, may or may not pick it up but it's clear they found it because they will poke at it then stop searching and come back to you. They aren't hunting for 30 minutes straight, but their hunt is definitely higher than they prey. And it's clear from their behavior that it's about the hunt, and not about the actual item they are searching for, because when they find it, they may or may not even care about it.

Actually I remember a bitch from a breeding I did 12+ years ago like this. Her prey drive was "okay", well, maybe "okay" is being nice LOL She played fetch, kind of. Her owner tried to do some bitework with her, she really wasn't that interested, she'd bite, but ... I think we've all seen dogs like her, you might get a basic low level title on them, if the sun is in the right spot in the sky, and the judge is friendly, and you put 3 years of work into them, etc. But her hunt drive was a different story. You could take an object, pretty much any object, show it to her, and go hide it, and she hunted until she found it. I doubt I have it anymore since it was on VHS but we videotaped her for someone for a possible detection home. Brought her to my house, and took 4 or 5 objects from the house. Just random stuff, a bag of potpourri, an oven mit, a metal toy car, etc. Have her outside my back yard (about 1/4 an acre) where she couldn't see into the yard, show her the item, then one of us would go hide it somewhere in the yard, up high, down low, etc. Then turn her loose and let her search without any handler input. She found every item, the longest search was just short of 15 minutes. We never did test her to see how long she'd hunt in a situation where she couldn't find the object. She did end up going to a detection home, and I replaced her with a dog more suited to what the owner wanted to do. But that was something I saw in those lines, a high hunt drive. Usually it was coupled with a high prey drive, but not always.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I'd truly like to read Don Turnipseed's report on this!

Prey / hunt drive were never "invented" by sport dogs' handlers.

The end of a true prey drive is the death of the object, in my mind.

To motivate dogs for prey drive, I would think hunger is the first objective. 

What amazes me, is that prey drive will be used but with a rubber ball at the end of the track!!
The prey drive îs always a means to killing the prey and satisfying the stomach???

I know we used to let the dogs track (before my time) and the end reward was a bite of the helper:

Can someone explain this please?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I'd truly like to read Don Turnipseed's report on this!
> 
> Prey / hunt drive were never "invented" by sport dogs' handlers.
> 
> ...


did he kill the helper and eat him?


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> did he kill the helper and eat him?


I wondered the same thing...... 

Toys, tugs, bite suits are another form of food for the dog, just reusable to the handler, he may not eat it, but I am sure if you sit and let him, he will destroy it and some will eat it. If a dog gets a ball at the end of a track or excerise and NOT FOOD, does his drive go down since it isn't satisfying his stomach?


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

That is a valable question. I wonder, too, if the prey drive can be satisfied only by food or, if it is possible to satisfy this by other means??


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Gillian Schuler said:


> That is a valable question. I wonder, too, if the prey drive can be satisfied only by food or, if it is possible to satisfy this by other means??


not by the way you describe how you view it in your mind, being only hunger and death motivated...it would not be possible...


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> That is a valable question. I wonder, too, if the prey drive can be satisfied only by food or, if it is possible to satisfy this by other means??


It is proven everyday by working dogs in all venues that the animal whether he gets a ball, pipe or tug, regardless of toy it isn't food and the dog succeed more and more. The dogs get better. Is he satisfied? by looking at him and reading behavior I'd say yes, can he tell me, not 100%, does he work great absolutely. In my eyes, the stomach has NOTHING to do with prey and or hunt. Drives are willingness to do things. Of course the dog will eat, its survival, and by us starving him a day of two to channel the drives later in training, it isn't necessarily his drive anymore, we are tapping into his survival instincts....shaping what WE want, not willingness and what the animal wants to do naturally.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

but are drives not rooted in survival instincts in the dog?

LOL....just keeping it nice and simple for the newbie discussion forum...


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I was actually thinking of tracikng, i.e. the drive being the motivator, i.e.food, and wondered if the "kong" at the end of the track would satisfy it's food drive!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I was actually thinking of tracikng, i.e. the drive being the motivator, i.e.food, and wondered if the "kong" at the end of the track would satisfy it's food drive!


food drive discussion in this thread will keep it nice and neat


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> food drive discussion in this thread will keep it nice and neat


so politically correct....talking food, I'm out!


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I was actually thinking of tracikng, i.e. the drive being the motivator, i.e.food, and wondered if the "kong" at the end of the track would satisfy it's food drive!


It's the catch at the end that satisfies the hunt/prey drive that's the mental release for the dog of a job well done in it's head, that's the catch. So it doesn't matter if it is a ball, kong or biting a sleeve that's what makes the dog go ... aaah drive satisfaction. To me the dog isn't hunting or chasing for it's own pleasure it is hunting and chasing for the end result .. it's catch, whatever that is. 

Gillian have you ever hunted yourself? Meaning going into the bush with a weapon and stalking a deer or grouse, stalking it and then killing it yourself? 

As I know when I have it is a whole different thing that is going on my head when I am stalking a deer vs seeing the deer and raising my weapon to take a shot. When I raise the weapon my heart rate goes up my adrenalin is peaked. Even some people shake and can't concentrate when the prize is in sight and then miss the shot, humans have drives if you want to call it that. :smile:


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> hi i think i have a handle on prey drive, now you talk about hunt drive; is this the same thing ie are the words interchangeable or is it different? sorry if the answer is already on a thread, please direct me to the right thread.
> 
> cheers



What Bob Said....


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

IMO, hunt is just another phase of prey because the act of hunting comes from a stronger prey instinct that normally precedes the actual chase. It is all driven by the same instinct.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Geoff Empey said:


> It's the catch at the end that satisfies the hunt/prey drive that's the mental release for the dog of a job well done in it's head, that's the catch. So it doesn't matter if it is a ball, kong or biting a sleeve that's what makes the dog go ... aaah drive satisfaction. To me the dog isn't hunting or chasing for it's own pleasure it is hunting and chasing for the end result .. it's catch, whatever that is.


I think it depends on what the dog is doing. I've seen, and handled, a number of dogs in tracking that tracked for the sheer enjoyment of tracking. They didn't care about food or toy rewards on or at the end of the track, they would skip right over them to keep on tracking. Even past the jackpot at the end, they would go right on past it track the track layer all the way back to the vehicle. Then if turned loose, would go back and rerun their track on their own again, skipping the food/toys again. If something like a bite, or a small fuzzy animal, were at the end of the track then they might have tracked for the reward at the end, but food or a ball wasn't that high of value compared to the track.

Not saying the dogs lacked food or toy drive, just that whatever drive they were in during the track was as high or higher. Kind of like a dog who is crazy about the toy, until you bring a decoy into the picture, then suddenly that toy really isn't that valuable to them anymore.


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

What we do with dogs is so artificial. Yes catching a ball is prey drive, but in evolutionary terms hunt and prey drive has only one goal, food! I have a dog who is maybe a 2 (out of 10) in terms of prey drive for a toy. Goes a little higher when I fight with her over the toy, but that's it. Hunt drive is even lower, for a toy. For food, much higher drive if she's hungry, still not as high as could be. 

Same dog can spend the entire night, 8-12 hours, hunting rats in the back yard and eating them. Focused, intense, and she is very succesful. Has great drive in a more natural situation that makes sense to her. Not really in a way that can be used for working dog applications.

I remember Don saying that his dogs will not even chase a ball... LOL


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

What Kadi said and why I have no more "drive" in adiding to this forum.

What we experience out on the field, be it tracking, obedience or biitework - it's always clear to us, or is expliained by one who knows better. 

We can watch each dog track and see why they fail or succeed. 

We can see why or why not they succeed in bite work.

We can follow the methods shown for the obedience.

No long discussions as to why and why not. I have no ambitions Geoff Empey to search myself! 

Be happy all of you with your "methods"!

Maybe one day you will "see" it for yoursleves!!

Gill


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## Butch Cappel (Aug 12, 2007)

Drives are scientific terms that were adopted and applied to dog training by the SV and other German trainers a long, long time ago. They are involuntary survival mechanisms that are easily identified. There are three drives identified by science, Prey, Defense and Sex. All three are involuntary, and contribute directly to the survival of the species.

Drives as referred to by _dog trainers_ today, have nothing to do with anything scientific. The term seems to be used to indicate the dog is interested in an object or task, more than some sort of instinct. As one trainer told me they had a new dog with very high Burlap drive. So to learn about "Drives" used by various dog trainers you can also look up "Opinion", or "description"

As the scientific drives are all involuntary responses they make training very easy, trigger the right drive, get the desired response,training complete, dog can't help it.

The most useful of the _Dog Trainers_ many "drives" can often be found in hunting dogs such as Airedales, and is best described as "four wheel" Drive, don't leave home without it.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Great assessment of drives Butch.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Butch Cappel said:


> Drives are scientific terms that were adopted and applied to dog training by the SV and other German trainers a long, long time ago. They are involuntary survival mechanisms that are easily identified. There are three drives identified by science, Prey, Defense and Sex. All three are involuntary, and contribute directly to the survival of the species.
> 
> Drives as referred to by _dog trainers_ today, have nothing to do with anything scientific. The term seems to be used to indicate the dog is interested in an object or task, more than some sort of instinct. As one trainer told me they had a new dog with very high Burlap drive. So to learn about "Drives" used by various dog trainers you can also look up "Opinion", or "description"
> 
> ...


Butch Im less sophisticated than many folks. I refer to it as either the dog has drive OR not.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Agree it is pretty much all psychobabble but there are definitely differences in how air-scenting dogs start their training -

some start with visual with the dog seeing the "prey" run off and hide and they have to use their nose to find it and others only start training with olfactory cues with the dog flushing the prey and making the "kill" at the end.....

Agree with Kadi on the trailing dogs and the number one reason I have heard for failure of trailing tests is the dog not finding the trail at the beginning....lot of folks forget that their won't be neon lights telling you were the trail began unless it is a jump and run...So the dog has to learn to cast for a reasonable amount of time and the handler needs to know when he just cast his dog in an area that has no trail.

..the detector/air scent dogs spends most their time in a negative area looking for scent the trailing dog is in scent while it is working AFTER it finds the trail.


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## Shade Whitesel (Aug 18, 2010)

I think that dogs have different degrees of persistence as well. I have a dog with very high prey drive and very little hunt. He will search about 2 minutes for the lost ball, then give up and go to another one. The other one will search and search and search and incidently is the one that loves to track as well. When I am looking for dogs for the sport, I look for persistence just as much as ball and tug drive. This is going to serve them well when going long periods of time without reward, whether in the sport or in real life.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Agree it is pretty much all psychobabble but there are definitely differences in how air-scenting dogs start their training -
> 
> some start with visual with the dog seeing the "prey" run off and hide and they have to use their nose to find it and others only start training with olfactory cues with the dog flushing the prey and making the "kill" at the end.....
> 
> ...


That is training and working with what the dog has and/or the individual method of training or imprinting. This changes in different trainers and of course venues or disciplines as well...


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

will fernandez said:


> I was given this definiton by someone a few months back. "Prey is the need of the dog to fill its mouth not eat or chew...just get whatever it wants in its mouth"
> 
> I like the definition it fits for my dogs.



That can get crazy also. The dog that has an intense desire to chase the cat (prey) yet doesn't have the balls to close in for the bite or kill (fill it's mouth)
Raymond Coppinger's explinitions in his book "DOGS" takes it to extremes. see-stalk-chase-catch-kill- consume
Domestication selects for extremes of each. ex- The bird dog has an exagerated stalk (point) and a soft mouth (lack of kill).
The kill-consume has been bred out of most domestic dogs.
Science can be wonderful.....sometimes. :lol:


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> No long discussions as to why and why not. I have no ambitions Geoff Empey to search myself!


You don't need to search by foot Gillian .. Come to Canada 1st 2 weeks of November and we can set you up in a tree stand. Then when the deer comes and eats the apples that you've strewn about below your stand you can jump on it's back with a dull pen knife in hand and satisfy your own personal cave (wo)man hunt and prey drive all in one fell swoop!  

It's best to ride the deer at least to the road before you go at it with your pen knife, it's easier to get it to the car that way.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

All these different opinions drive me crazy


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Simple shit rite there BAM!


Bob Scott said:


> Prey is the willingness to chase a moving object.
> Hunt is the willingness to keep looking for it for an extended time after it's out of sight.
> Of course there will be 1,468 different opinions of this. :lol:;-)


I like this line of thinking.


Jody Butler said:


> doesn't he have to have prey to find the object as well regarless of sight or smell? Think about it..dog has to know what he is looking for (OBJECT) in order to HUNT for it regardless or sight or smell, thus having prey for the hunt. I think hunt is more of a trait of prey. Most dogs with very good hunt have crazy prey don't they? And weaker prey dogs lose interest in the hunt as well don't they?
> Of course talking averages, but I don't look at it as sight or smell, I think the hunt is more of a trait of the prey.


Im with ya on this one.


Jennifer Michelson said:


> I guess my 2 cents would be: yes hunt is an extension of prey, but it is the willingness to continue looking for the prey in the absence if any additional stimulus. Air Scent dogs search for a prey they dont see or smell (no trail).
> Some dogs will look forever for the lost ball/ person/ food item. I have a dog I have to call off of lost balls when it is time to go home and it isnt easy. Other dogs will lose interest ,forget what they are doing or get distracted with other smells more easily.
> I do believe that this 'drive' can be affected by training.


JMO What Kadi described this is hunt drive in its purest form this is what THIS Schutzhund handler dreams about is THIS DOG!!!! I have one he may be laking here or there in some other areas but my Jett is trackers dream.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=slTDAtZujQY


Kadi Thingvall said:


> I think it depends on what the dog is doing. I've seen, and handled, a number of dogs in tracking that tracked for the sheer enjoyment of tracking. They didn't care about food or toy rewards on or at the end of the track, they would skip right over them to keep on tracking. Even past the jackpot at the end, they would go right on past it track the track layer all the way back to the vehicle. Then if turned loose, would go back and rerun their track on their own again, skipping the food/toys again. If something like a bite, or a small fuzzy animal, were at the end of the track then they might have tracked for the reward at the end, but food or a ball wasn't that high of value compared to the track.
> Not saying the dogs lacked food or toy drive, just that whatever drive they were in during the track was as high or higher. Kind of like a dog who is crazy about the toy, until you bring a decoy into the picture, then suddenly that toy really isn't that valuable to them anymore.


Last but not least Jerry sums things up very nicely.


Gerry Grimwood said:


> All these different opinions drive me crazy


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Is it not clear enough to just describe an individual dog's behavior ? For example , " That dog is good at using it's nose to search for things and will look for a long time . " , " That dog likes to chase things and catch them . " .


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Someone talked about dogs wasting a lot of time looking because they never found the beginning of the track. You watch a good hunting dog and they seldom have the "beginning" of a track like a dog has when a person lays a track for them. A good dog, when, he comes into the middle of a track, never takes the back track. They can tell which direction the naimal was going sever hours after he passed by the difference in 2 to 3 feet. The biggest problem with tracking training is that the track layer knoiws right where the track is and expects a dog that has been raised in the house to be an expert.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

thanks guys - i think. goin back to my newbie crate to recover

one point though i didn't think was mentioned, the dogs i am used to will pay no attention/no interest in a ball or tug period - not a function of early training, just the way they are - yet they will find and catch large game , way long rannge day after day. a sport trainer would be forced to conclude these dogs have no prey drive afetr seeing repsonse to ball/tug - then what drives do these dogs run by? doesn't fit previous definitions yet occurrs?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

THAT is prey drive in it's truest sense Peter. Your right also that a trainer will say dogs of this nature have no prey drive. I had a trainer say that about two opf my dogs once because they sat and looked at him like he was crazy when he threw a ball or anything else. Had he gone in the house and got his cat....he would have seen prey drive.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> THAT is prey drive in it's truest sense Peter. Your right also that a trainer will say dogs of this nature have no prey drive. I had a trainer say that about two opf my dogs once because they sat and looked at him like he was crazy when he threw a ball or anything else. Had he gone in the house and got his cat....he would have seen prey drive.


 
here we go again....full circle


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Jody, this is where all these terms originated.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Someone talked about dogs wasting a lot of time looking because they never found the beginning of the track. You watch a good hunting dog and they seldom have the "beginning" of a track like a dog has when a person lays a track for them. A good dog, when, he comes into the middle of a track, never takes the back track. They can tell which direction the naimal was going sever hours after he passed by the difference in 2 to 3 feet. The biggest problem with tracking training is that the track layer knoiws right where the track is and expects a dog that has been raised in the house to be an expert.


Just to take this off topic since the points have been covered rather well already. Don, as you know I've got a dog like you describe above. Track training her was the easiest thing I've ever done with her and one of the most useful/interesting things I've had to work with so far. Once I gave up the idea of doing something sport based with her I found an entirely new appreciation for this type of dog. It's rather fascinating to observe JMO.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> THAT is prey drive in it's truest sense Peter. Your right also that a trainer will say dogs of this nature have no prey drive. I had a trainer say that about two opf my dogs once because they sat and looked at him like he was crazy when he threw a ball or anything else. Had he gone in the house and got his cat....he would have seen prey drive.


;-) Cant argue that
Many different ways of the dog, like the saying goes "same thing only different" :lol:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> THAT is prey drive in it's truest sense Peter. Your right also that a trainer will say dogs of this nature have no prey drive. I had a trainer say that about two opf my dogs once because they sat and looked at him like he was crazy when he threw a ball or anything else. Had he gone in the house and got his cat....he would have seen prey drive.



Then the geniuses will break that down to prey drive vs play drive. 

Prey drive to chase, catch, kill. 
Play drive to chase for the sake of a game.
It never stops. :lol:


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

I have a question related to this topic. Maybe those of you who have worked long time in detection or even SAR may have seen it.

Have you ever seen a dog that was crazy about a ball or tug...I mean loved to fill its mouth with it, posessive and so on. Lets say a dog you would actually have to choke off its toy/tug...But for some reason...crappy at the hunt?

Like if it wasn't visually stimulated by the prey...just looked like it was going out for a walk instead of really REALLY searching?

I am NOT talking about dogs where the training has been messed up and steps have been missed. I am talking about dogs that couldn't make the association in your training timeline for whatever reason? It is like if the reward disapeared...it is just GONE to the dog...not hiding, not worth looking for. 

Just wondering if anyone has seen this kind of thing or if you think it has to be a mistake in training.


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## Catalina Valencia (Feb 20, 2008)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> thanks guys - i think. goin back to my newbie crate to recover
> 
> one point though i didn't think was mentioned, the dogs i am used to will pay no attention/no interest in a ball or tug period - not a function of early training, just the way they are - yet they will find and catch large game , way long rannge day after day. a sport trainer would be forced to conclude these dogs have no prey drive afetr seeing repsonse to ball/tug - then what drives do these dogs run by? doesn't fit previous definitions yet occurrs?


To me it has to do no with different kinds of drive or with amount of drive, but with tresholds. A dog with a low treshold for prey will go after anything that moves, be it a ball, a tug, their own leash, wathever. Most malis I've seen have low tresholds for drive. A wolf on the other hand, do have prey drive (or would starve otherwise) but has a high treshold. Give them a real rabbit, because they will not waste energy on a rag, they know better than that. Same with most nordic breeds, they are the best at crittering, but seem with low drive and have little interest in toys compared to the breeds we use for sports nowadays.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> It is like if the reward disapeared...it is just GONE to the dog...not hiding, not worth looking for.


Trying to make your running shoes fit in your ski bindings ??


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Trying to make your running shoes fit in your ski bindings ??


No dog of mine Gerry.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> No dog of mine Gerry.


Then, it must be a shitter :lol:


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## Catalina Valencia (Feb 20, 2008)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> I have a question related to this topic. Maybe those of you who have worked long time in detection or even SAR may have seen it.
> 
> Have you ever seen a dog that was crazy about a ball or tug...I mean loved to fill its mouth with it, posessive and so on. Lets say a dog you would actually have to choke off its toy/tug...But for some reason...crappy at the hunt?
> 
> ...


I can't say I have seen it the way you describe. The ones I've seen were medium drives to start with, no high drive - crazy for the toy dogs and they start searching, but for only about 5 seconds and are lost. To me it is like if they can't handle frustration and give up way too easy. Some are just spoiled, too used to receive help from their handlers at the minimal obstacles, in others there is a nerve problem. In my team we have a 6 m/o male GSD that is with 3 paws out of the team because of this.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> I have a question related to this topic. Maybe those of you who have worked long time in detection or even SAR may have seen it.
> 
> Have you ever seen a dog that was crazy about a ball or tug...I mean loved to fill its mouth with it, posessive and so on. Lets say a dog you would actually have to choke off its toy/tug...But for some reason...crappy at the hunt?
> 
> ...



Not uncommon at all with a lot of pet dogs. Play ball all day but loose interest if the ball is lost.
This is what washes out MANY dogs that "he/she was made for SAR" aka their owners.
THAT'S the difference between prey and hunt. The don't always go together!
This is also where some would break it down to prey or play.
This would show the dog on the other side of the coin to Don's point that directly links prey with hunt. The dog that isn't interested in a game of fetch but will hunt forever.
All play and no hunt. all hunt and no play. They don't all have both...or need to have both depending on what they are used for.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Then, it must be a shitter :lol:


You don't know me very well Gerry. I am one of those grass is always greener girls. It is always someone else that has the perfect dog...never me. If you find the perfect dog store...let me know.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> If you find the perfect dog store...let me know.


I should be so lucky.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Bob Scott said:


> Not uncommon at all with a lot of pet dogs. Play ball all day but loose interest if the ball is lost.
> This is what washes out MANY dogs that "he/she was made for SAR" aka their owners.
> THAT'S the difference between prey and hunt. The don't always go together!
> This is also where some would break it down to prey or play.
> ...


This was a working breed, and when I was playing tug with it...I was pretty convinced it had working drives. Just not the hunt I expected. Now I was not with this team to see every step in their training.

I mean take sport dogs for example. They have to have great prey drive to do well in sport, but there is no real test of their hunt drive (not counting following scent as in tracking...talking looking for long periods in the absence of target odor). Do all good bitework dogs have what it takes to be great hunters in the detection sense?


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Jeez Gerry you always manage to find the holey grill on EweToob but now you choke? Dig deep, I know you can come up with something on this for Jennifer.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

"Do all good bitework dogs have what it takes to be great hunters in the detection sense?"


Doubtful! Not all bitework "sport"dogs are required to do scent work. Outside of Schutzhund ther are only a few that rewuire any sort of actual detection/scent work.
The LE K9s here could better answer for their dogs but there is a reason some are dual purpose and some can do one or the other. Sometimes the policy of the dept, sometimes the dog just isn't cut out for bite work AND detection.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Nicole Stark said:


> Jeez Gerry you always manage to find the holey grill on EweToob but now you choke? Dig deep, I know you can come up with something on this for Jennifer.


Nicole...I'm a different man now, back in the day I woulda come up with some comparison like this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9qiZrJaLRs

That's not how I roll now 




















:razz::razz::razz::razz::razz::razz::razz:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Nicole...I'm a different man now, back in the day I woulda come up with some comparison like this...
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9qiZrJaLRs
> 
> ...


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Nicole...I'm a different man now, back in the day I woulda come up with some comparison like this...
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9qiZrJaLRs
> 
> ...


Dang, the most obvious choice would probably be the nut rollin' Master v.d. Muffler. But I suppose this clip might do in some really bizarre way. You think that dog had a lisp? Ok sorry, this is a good subject and somehow I seem hell bent on derailing it tonight. My apologies to the forum.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Nicole...I'm a different man now, back in the day I woulda come up with some comparison like this...
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9qiZrJaLRs
> 
> That's not how I roll now


Fuk me


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Do all good bitework dogs have what it takes to be great hunters in the detection sense?


Nope. I've known multiple dogs that were titled in the highest level of their sport, including competing and or/winning at national championships who were definitely not high in hunt drive. Out of sight, out of mind.

Interesting side note one of the dogs I'm thinking of was actually a very good methodical tracker (Sch style), I just don't believe the tracking was being done in hunt drive.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Kadi said


> Interesting side note one of the dogs I'm thinking of was actually a very good methodical tracker (Sch style), I just don't believe the tracking was being done in hunt drive.


Good observation Kadi and I agree 100%. Most tracking ofr objects is done soley because the dog is doing a job. Has nothing to do with drives. I brought this uo some time ago and it wasn't well received. As Butch pointed out earlier, drives are instincts that the dog has no control over. If tracking were a drive, all dogs would all be aces at it.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> I have a question related to this topic. Maybe those of you who have worked long time in detection or even SAR may have seen it.
> 
> Have you ever seen a dog that was crazy about a ball or tug...I mean loved to fill its mouth with it, posessive and so on. Lets say a dog you would actually have to choke off its toy/tug...But for some reason...crappy at the hunt?
> 
> ...


I have . Dogs come with a mixture of different characteristics . I've seen it more while testing potential detector dogs . I've been blessed with the opprotunity to train all sorts of dogs for PSD work . From different breeds to dogs of the same breed but of very different breedings and lines . I don't think it was a mistake in training often these were young dogs with no training at all . It was just that dog's particular make up . 

As for this discussion it gets frustrating seeing all of the pigeon holeing of dogs and training . This is prey drive , this is defence drive , this is a sport dog , this is a PSD , this type of training is bad and only this type of training is good . When it comes down to it , everyone's got a different definition of what's what . 

I'll use my 2 Patrol Dogs as an example . 2 completely different dogs in training and characteristics . Both preferred to hunt and chase man over anything else but my first K9 drew the line at only chasing real things , man , critters . My second would chase anything that moved .

My first K9 could have given a crap about a ball . Throw it and he might chase it but not very far and wouldn't pick it up . But if he saw a rabbit or other critter he would chase it down , kill it and run around flipping it in the air playing his own game of fetch . Same with a decoy with a sleeve or the real badguys he caught . Luckily , he liked to play tug of war , so initially training him to track was easy if there was a tug at the end . Once he progressed to a decoy at the end and later real badguys he got even better . He was an awesome tracker on the street . Very easy to read when he was on or off a track and very successful . 

Narc. detection work was another story . It was tough finding anything that would motivate him to do that type of work with intensity . Luckily he had just enough to get the job done . Made some very good drug finds on the street but it sure wasn't pretty to watch .

My second K9 was a nut for a ball . Throw it and he'd run through fire to get it . Anything that moved he would chase and bring back . This made training any detector work very easy . Tracking was easy to teach but his intensity to find the scent on the ground made it hard to tell his negatives showing me when he was on or off a track . 

Narc detection training was no problem at all . Great nose and he would search all day to find drugs in order to get his toy . Very pretty to watch but detailing can be a pain because he wants to follow his nose they way he wants to and he's searching from the get go . 

They were both GSDs but they both had completely different personalities and type of training to get them to be PSDs . 

Was one better then the other at it's job ? Nope . Both were just as successful . It just took different routes to get them there . 

Did I prefer one over the other ? Yes , the first only because he brought more power to the fight and with his characteristics the " Do it because I said do it ! " type of personality is more my type of training . 

But that didn't make him any better or mre successfull on the street doing his job . Just different .


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Nice post Jim,
I have a male GSD too that goes crazy for animals especially lizards(he does a sort of revier when he can't catch them) but he won't chase a rag or tug. The only 'artificial' prey he likes is basketballs, he goes nuts for them.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Catalina Valencia said:


> To me it has to do no with different kinds of drive or with amount of drive, but with tresholds. A dog with a low treshold for prey will go after anything that moves, be it a ball, a tug, their own leash, wathever. Most malis I've seen have low tresholds for drive. A wolf on the other hand, do have prey drive (or would starve otherwise) but has a high treshold. Give them a real rabbit, because they will not waste energy on a rag, they know better than that. Same with most nordic breeds, they are the best at crittering, but seem with low drive and have little interest in toys compared to the breeds we use for sports nowadays.


And in come the thresholds...to keep it nice neat and simple..


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Gotta luv it. LMAO


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

dare i ask; is the willingness of a dog to go fetch (retrieve) a separate "drive", prey, hunt??

given nearly every dog can be trained to do retrieve, i have seen the following combinations of untrained puppy behaviours across a litter;

1. no interest
2. chase and not pick up
3. chase pick and run away with item
4. chase pick up and return to handler with it but avoid handlers "hand" ie possessive won't give up item
5. retrive to hand at speed both directions and wait for next throw.

note: i am referring to untrained pups in particular but can include older dogs. 
how much uniformity of behaviour would you expect in same litter and does pup willing to retrive rate highly for future prospects compared to other traits.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> dare i ask; is the willingness of a dog to go fetch (retrieve) a separate "drive", prey, hunt??
> 
> given nearly every dog can be trained to do retrieve, i have seen the following combinations of untrained puppy behaviours across a litter;
> 
> ...


This is a goal all good breeders strive for, even if the litter is marginal being uniformed is a huge + and gives the breeder a clearer read on what adjustments to make on the next go or not to go. Sharing this with others breeders is priceless Prolly why the KNVP program has so much success they seem to be a pretty tight bunch


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

The only thing I would add is too many people think a dog who doesnt hunt for a ball in long grass has low hunt drive. I have seen dogs that have average interest in hunting a ball, or even retrieving it, yet will hunt for a person to bite them.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Christopher Jones said:


> The only thing I would add is too many people think a dog who doesnt hunt for a ball in long grass has low hunt drive. I have seen dogs that have average interest in hunting a ball, or even retrieving it, yet will hunt for a person to bite them.


 
agreed, but the ones that hunt like hell for a ball or toy usually hunt even better for a person....


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

this thread makes me think about a B movie I remember seeing as a kid 

"the head that wouldn't die".....

So why not jump back in......we are training a little rat terrier puppy for cadaver work...and

Right now we are telling the handler to keep the puppy on a long line when she goes to new places with new distractions so it can't chase all the little critters outside (very distractable) and let the scented towel on a string on a pole be its only prey critter....then tug with it...tease it..etc..put the toy up with the puppy wanting it.

Little bugger has plenty of "chase and kill" in it but we are trying to direct it where we want it to go. 

Do you think a lot of the dogs that don't have "ball drive" "toy drive' whatever just were not conditioned as puppies to transfer that chasing and killing drive to the play object? Time will tell if we can be succesful with a pup bred for hunting (and this one was)....


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> this thread makes me think about a B movie I remember seeing as a kid
> 
> "the head that wouldn't die".....
> 
> ...


Nancy, seems like a lot of time and work for an iffy result with a terrier. I really don't understand starting something like this with the cards stacked against you. I have seen it done but the small terriers, if bred right, are pretty much hardwired to kill small game. Toughnto beat that reward if he ever manages to kill a few critters.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Nancy, seems like a lot of time and work for an iffy result with a terrier. I really don't understand starting something like this with the cards stacked against you. I have seen it done but the small terriers, if bred right, are pretty much hardwired to kill small game. Toughnto beat that reward if he ever manages to kill a few critters.


So that is the experiment with this pup--- he won't have the opportunity ---if his drive is associated with the target scent, and he learns he cannot chase critters from an early age -- will he still not be able to overcome his hardwiring? I know some folks have been succesfull with Jack Russells in HRD work and there are times when the small size can be a real plus.

I am enyoying the experiment with the pup. My next dog will still be a GSD as is the current dog.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I would let the little bassid know from the get go that it's not allowed to even LOOK at any critter. It will only take one kill, maybe even a chase to ruin it for HRD. 
I do think they can be fantastic at it but it's going to be different from any GSD or Lab. 
Example;
I hunted my first Border terrier for a yr or two when I decided to teach him tracking (FST) for AKC.
He was a natural at it BUT I never titled him because he was incapable of crossing a game trail just to stay on the human track.
I've helped many, many people start there "pet" terriers on the den trials. To a man/woman they all are very supprised at how one exposure to just a rat in a cage changes them. A few have even given them up as house pets. Crazy ****** little bassids! 
Keep us posted! I think they can be winners with Cad/HRD work.
My choice would be boat work for them......course there's always them dern muskrats in the water. I had a Kerry Blue that would break ice like a Polar bear to try and get to those water rats. 
And keep it from trying to kill all the big dogs on the team. They rarely will take any crap and that probably includes elephants and tigers too. 
Many are great around other dogs. Many more....not so much!
Early exposure!


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Actually that is the game plan for this pup - we get a lot of water calls and the handler has some mobility issues - we don't see the dog doing large area searches but more speciality in controlled environments.

Since I have always wanted to check out a small cadaver dog - it is very interesting to me. My own cadaver dog is a 75lb GSD, and the next dog will be another GSD (after all my speculation on getting a smaller breed)


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Geoff Empey said:


> You don't need to search by foot Gillian .. Come to Canada 1st 2 weeks of November and we can set you up in a tree stand. Then when the deer comes and eats the apples that you've strewn about below your stand you can jump on it's back with a dull pen knife in hand and satisfy your own personal cave (wo)man hunt and prey drive all in one fell swoop!
> 
> It's best to ride the deer at least to the road before you go at it with your pen knife, it's easier to get it to the car that way.




Thanks for the offer but I live opposite a deer farm / park.

I'm partial to a bit of venison, I must say and the nearby restaurant owners stalk the deer, shoot it and then I can enjoy a well hung piece of venison with all the trimmings!!

I've ridden a cow and a horses but never a deer......videos???


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Thanks for the offer but I live opposite a deer farm / park.
> 
> I'm partial to a bit of venison, I must say and the nearby restaurant owners stalk the deer, shoot it and then I can enjoy a *well hung* piece of venison with all the trimmings!!
> 
> I've ridden a cow and a horses but never a deer......videos???


:-o:-o:-o:-o  could not resist, I apologize...


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Joiking apart, have you ever tried "fresh" venison??


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Joiking apart, have you ever tried "fresh" venison??


fresh yes, raw no...I do like venison very much...


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Fresh as in it hasn't been hung to age at all?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Fresh as in it hasn't been hung to age at all?


was not sure if she meant raw or fresh or not hung LOL...I am assuming now she meant well hung, as in well aged.. and fresh compared to properly aged. I have tasted some bad tasting venison that was not aged properly..


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> was not sure if she meant raw or fresh or not hung LOL...I am assuming now she meant well hung, as in well aged.. and fresh compared to properly aged. I have tasted some bad tasting venison that was not aged properly..



Aged or not makes all the difference in the world.
:-k Never paid much attention before but I can't recall seeing a well hung deer.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)




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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Talk about drives!
Young buck
Good news! - I finally got some!
Bad news! - DAMN! #-oThey're gonna take my horns away for this one! 

Old buck
Good news - ;-) How YOU doin?! ;-);-);-)
Bad news -  WTF!?:x

Doe
Good news - A man!=P~
Bad news - MEN! :roll:


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Thanks to those that provided some feedback on my small question in this mess.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Thanks to those that provided some feedback on my small question in this mess.



Someone asked a question?? 8-[ :lol: 
Did you get a reasonable answer?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> I have a question related to this topic. Maybe those of you who have worked long time in detection or even SAR may have seen it.
> 
> Have you ever seen a dog that was crazy about a ball or tug...I mean loved to fill its mouth with it, posessive and so on. Lets say a dog you would actually have to choke off its toy/tug...But for some reason...crappy at the hunt?
> 
> ...


that is where "drive" discussions have value..

Like take Mike Suttle's (and other's) interest in 'metal' retrievers for his contracts..
that is possession + hunt + prey in my mind...

hunt drive is rooted in prey. ball drive is rooted in prey..but prey and ball drive.. does not equal HUNT...in all cases..

talks about drives, all broken down to overly specific terms, have a value to trainers and breeders that are trying to produce or looking for a specific product as far as I see it. It can be simple and generic or detailed and specific...

I am a newbie to traditional working dogs, accepted working dogs, but have seen what you are asking about...


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I've ridden a cow and a horses but never a deer......videos???


You asked for it Gillian you got it! Now this is some hunt drive! :mrgreen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iViB-TYQzzs Bwahahahah! \\/


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

like a good neighbor.......hunt drive is there....BOOM BABY...
just like the Statefarm commercials


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