# eye contact



## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Two other threads being active now got me thinking about what poses as a threat to a dog.
In one of the other discussions stickhits are mentioned as being part of a courage test.
Yes some dogs really react to that and the reaction can be twofold,they either get angry or they get scared.
A lot has been said about stick hit and posture of the decoy,but what about eye contact?
I have watched a lot of videos and some decoys can be really menacing and put up a big show with a loud voice but what i miss is eye contact.I did know a decoy once who could chase dogs by just looking at them,and he was feared by many competitors.
I had an uncle who could enter any farmyard and no dog would ever go near him,he looked the dogs square in the eye and they all ran.
None of these dogs were ever trained to bite but some had a bad rep.
How important is eye contact during training,is it mostly ignored?
I am not talking about the normal looking at a dog kind of contact but the deeper look,*i am going to hurt you!
*And i do not think every decoy can do it,not every one has the evil eye.
A good test of courage?


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

I've seen some dogs back off from direct eye contact. I've seen some folks attacked due to the direct challenge but avert your eyes with those same dogs and you could go where you wanted.


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## Catherine Gervin (Mar 12, 2012)

Sarah Platts said:


> I've seen some dogs back off from direct eye contact. I've seen some folks attacked due to the direct challenge but avert your eyes with those same dogs and you could go where you wanted.


this has been my experience, too. eye contact is a big deal in the animal kingdom.


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Catherine Gervin said:


> this has been my experience, too. eye contact is a big deal in the animal kingdom.


And human kingdom...Nothing beats solid eye contact!

Sorry, couldnt resist...lol


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## Catherine Gervin (Mar 12, 2012)

Tiago Fontes said:


> And human kingdom...Nothing beats solid eye contact!
> 
> Sorry, couldnt resist...lol


you know what, that's true! but i gotta say-- it's pretty tough to see much while that's going on so i always considered it to be more of a gesture made?


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

I think its just as important as anything when training. I can bring a dog up or shut a dog down without making a big scene.

I have a dog that would search out eye contact from anybody (not just decoys), to the point of circling and following the persons head and eyes. He figured as soon as solid contact was made, game on. And he tried. And he tried. He's chilled out a lot with maturity, so he doesnt force eye contact anymore, but if someone forces contact with him, its on.

I dont want to brag or anything, but Ive made a black bear stop in his tracks and run away from my presence and eye contact. Felt like Crocodile Dundee. But Ive also made eye contact with a silverback gorilla and I could not hold my gaze. Every time he met eyes with me, he would get on the muscle and start to get up, no matter how hard I tried, I broke eye contact. Probably because I didnt want to get ripped apart...but those boys have some serious presence up close. Only time Ive ever felt...inadequate.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Often times a dogs threshold for aggression can be found with nothing more then eye contact. 
Then you have to decide if it's fear driven or a serious dog. 

At the same time a very strong nerved, clear headed dog can have a threshold that makes it hard to get them wound up with eye contact. Sure doesn't mean it wont eat you with the right stimulation though.


It's surprising how approaching a young puppy without using eye contact, turned sideways to it while on your knees can get even a shy pup involved with you.


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## Mike Di Rago (Jan 9, 2009)

Stewart Hilliard used this technique at a seminar I went to.Many handler had no idea how their dogs would react to a slow approach by a decoy who maintained eye contact and no other threat.
I also had the same type of dog Brian is referring to.Was a PITA as he was always looking for a fight!
Mike


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

that is one of the most important factors in an effective agitator, for pressure anyhow.... I feel.
use of the eyes. and also overall posture or course.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Our helper in Germany could do that but he had the necessary "dominance" to go with it and, as you say Joby, the body stance to back it up.

If a dog was dirty in the blind, he'd grab him with his bare hands and make sure he never did it again. No brutality - just assertion.

Just as genetics can produce a good dog, so can genetics produce good helpers. Throughout the whole world there are not many of this variety. However many helper seminars there are, this type of helper doesn't need teaching how to "work" the dog.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Time out so have to add this separately:

It's a bit OT but when I said the same helper had called me an "idiot" in the heat of the moment, someone replied that no helper would ever be allowed to call him that.

I would say such helpers are full-bloodied profis and, if I do something daft that ruins the session, then so be it. I take what I deserve. It's a spur of the moment thing where tension is high. Nevertheless, the same helper would praise when deserved.

To have my dog worked by a good helper more than overweighs my "sensitivity".


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## Marcel Winter (Mar 29, 2013)

Thats why I like to work with strong helpers with serious preasure
no clowns a good dog must take every kind of fair preasure if not the 
dog is useless for me. eye contact so what , a good serious dog must and can take it.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

addition,

I would not say it is a good test of courage in itself, but all part of the package.

It can and should certainly put the dog in more serious mindset as opposed to "playing games".

It is quite often that "some" younger dogs, once of decent mental maturity, may need this type of pressure to really start to perform well and "take it to the next level" and fully blossom in the protection work. especially some off breed dogs.

my last dog had super weak bite uninterested at 9 months, it took one 10 second "stare down" and a little posturing with a shovel to forever change that dog into a pretty beastly dangerous dog..obviously, it was already in her...just got it out with that stare down. I pity the fool that would make a stare down at her and try to scare her off if she was not restrained or otherwise under control...


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I'm not sure I quite agree with all you say Joby but I think we are definitely on the same page.

I took my older GSD at 7 months to watch the Swiss <IPO Trials (protection work) The dog was 7 months, had never bitten into a tug that I held with force. He watched it all with a lacksadaisical glance.

At 9 months our breeder and helper was in Switzerland once a week. I took him and we walked into the Arena, Buster, hopping and skipping like a naive puppy, all 36 Kilos of him.

Alex, the breeder and helper, appeared in front of him with a puppy sleeve. Unawares, the dog pulled me to the helper and after the first bite, he said to someone "give me the normal sleeve". I could hardly hold him and someone asked when I had last done Schutzdienst!!

If I had gone to a "weak" helper, would the dog have bitten so?

The Landseer we had would only have bitten civil, as would have the Fila Brasileiro.

I honestly do not know where I am going with this :-D

I think I will stop now and await something from you.


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