# OB Before Bitework....thoughts?



## Karen Havins (Apr 22, 2012)

Lately, I have been hearing a lot of talk regarding bite work and OB. 
I'm deliberately generalizing bitework.

Seems the rule of thought on one side of the court says NO OB before bitework. That it ruins the dog for biting the sleeve/suit. 
I have asked why and the response seems to be it breaks them down, they are afraid to bite, afraid to do something wrong..etc. 

The other side of the court says that you SHOULD do OB before biting. 
Thoughts vary from making it easier to cross over some basic OB principles into the bitework later on...helps to build a bond before biting..etc. 

I got into a discussion with one poor gal who's dogs are choked off the sleeve...and older male bulldog who weights 135 and a younger Mal puppy. The male HAS an out and they won't let her use it in training. They prefer this method to the method I have seen employed where you slip the sleeve when dog drops it they are walked away. They actually want the dog choked off. 

This particular group also believes NO OB before hand. 


What I have found, it's the younger group of trainers that say No OB...it's the older group that says OB first. 

What are the thought process of both ideas?


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

IMO if my obedience is bringing down the dog in bitework I need to take a step back and look at my training methods and/or the dog I have at the end of the line.


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## Lee May (Jan 8, 2012)

For me and my old school teacher/ trainer we always do OB. before bite work. We do PP and a solid out is more important to me. I also train for real world situations where the bad guy might be ready for one hard bite. To me if drive is their and right work put in you won't have any issues with commitment to the task. Having to choke a dog out to release is a liability to me. Does No Ob have it's place in bite work? Yes, in sport work where their is less chance for injury to decoy/catcher. Their is no 100% right or 100% wrong answer to this question, just strong opinions for those that choose their side/course.JMHO


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

I'm not much of a finesse trainer so I like the dog to be a bit further ahead in the bite work vs obedience but then I'm of the mindset that there's too much obedience in schutzhund.....it's becoming ridiculous.


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## Karen Havins (Apr 22, 2012)

I forgot to add my own thoughts, such as they are considering I'm a newbie....

I think OB done right, keeping it fun and happy and enjoyable for the dog is a must. That being the case, the dog doesn't feel beat down, doesn't feel overly pressured and concerned he's going to do the wrong thing. 

I think that when the wrong person would do OB...then I can see why there might be a problem down the line. For example...dog is miserable and handler is damn near beating the dog into submission. 
Course, then you bring up the question, the dog ****ing hates your guts and won't protect you anyhow! lol


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

I used to do OB before bite work, always. My thought behind this was in a trial the OB portion is always first so I'm conditioning the dog to first time out is OB then next time is bite work. I wish I could remember who but I read that from someone way smarter than me. It depends on the dog though too just depends what works for them. 

I think though at a certain point it doesn't matter what you do first, they will just do what's asked.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

For any of the bite sports from Schutzhund/IPO to any of the Ring/Suit sports (French, Mondio, PSA) Obedience is required.
I can't think of anyone besides PP trainers who work with dogs back tied with chains that thinks obedience is bad?


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I think some of you took the OPs question out of context.


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

Brett Bowen said:


> I used to do OB before bite work, always. My thought behind this was in a trial the OB portion is always first so I'm conditioning the dog to first time out is OB then next time is bite work. I wish I could remember who but I read that from someone way smarter than me. It depends on the dog though too just depends what works for them.
> 
> I think though at a certain point it doesn't matter what you do first, they will just do what's asked.





It may not be so bad to have the dog come thinking it's OB time and do protection, one of my dogs gets worked up pretty good in his crate waiting for protection to start.


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

either way could be good as long as the trainer has a method to the madness. I do all o.b. first so I don't have to suit up more than once. Normally their is some o.b. in bite work as well. I agree that if you have a working dog that doesn't get up for bite work you have to evaluate your dog and training.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

we start drive building and bitework as soon as they are coordinated enough to chase and bite things, usually 5-6 weeks. We do some very basic behavior shaping with food in OB very early as well, as well as tracking, and teaching them to hunt for a toy. I dont think any of this effects the way the dogs bite at all. 
As long as the OB is positive and fun for the puppy, and you dont put any pressure on him in OB he should not have any issues carry over into bitework at all.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

We do OB and protection at the same time.
With Green dog we often starts out with no OB to distans the dog from its handler abitt and let him know its ok to bite.
Most dogs that we train starts att around 6-7 mont ore 1 year and they have already aloot of rules and OB placed on them. 

Then its the same thru the traning, somtimes the dog nead to be hyped UP then we just forgets about the OB for some time, then back again. 

We have alot of OB in ouer protection sport so we nead to work on it al the time.
Transports
Sitt befor long bite
Sitt befor long muzzle hit
And som other parts.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I don't have enough experience to offer intelligent comment on this topic but I am pretty sure that the use of "before" was not intended to be applied in the context of on training day but rather, do you start OB before you start the pup/young dog in bite work.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

I was judging by the example. If my dog has an out, I'll be using it in protection, rather than choke the dog off. If the outing brings my dog down, then I think we have some issues.

I started both ob and protection at the same time with my dog and she seems fine. She's not the strongest dog anyway so it's hard to say I guess, but she's got killer ob during protection and it hasn't seemed to slow her down one bit. If anything I think the ob during protection sort of fires her up.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

what a load of poppy cock


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

brad robert said:


> what a load of poppy cock


And a great way to start the day I reckon. ;-)


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

LOL trust you nicole


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## Karen Havins (Apr 22, 2012)

Nicole Stark said:


> I don't have enough experience to offer intelligent comment on this topic but I am pretty sure that the use of "before" was not intended to be applied in the context of on training day but rather, do you start OB before you start the pup/young dog in bite work.


Yes, exactly, in other words, having a dog with solid OB BEFORE they even see a sleeve or suit versus NO training and having the dog fully working on the suit or sleeve. 
Sorry, I must not have been clear....


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

They can both be done at the same time. I believe the rationale that one must be done to the exclusion of the other is mistaken and unnecessary. What IS important is one's training methods. So, do them at the same time, if you like, but do it right.


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## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

I'm kind of on the fence on this one, my first thought was some basic obedience first, but when trying to teach mine an out, I'm not sure it made any difference, she was in another zone when biting, and never learned to out till I started giving an out command and giving her a snap with a pinch collar. That said, with my limited experience and my dog, I don't see any way that ob could ever affect my dog biting, but she is I think pretty strong on bitework for a year old dog.

I can play with her for about 10-12 reps retrieving, frisbee, or a tennis ball, and she'll want to do something different, but I don't know how long she'll do bitework, I get tired and bruised up and sore before she's ready to quit. I think you'd have to be pretty tough on ob to affect her. I also have no interest in sport dog perfect ob either though, just want one that will do a sit, down, heel off leash, not worried whether they sit straight, are totally perfect in execution.

With my work hours, and having to let her exercise, etc, in the dark, not sure it's possible anyway to be that firm on ob all the time.


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## Lisa Brazeau (May 6, 2010)

Depends on the dog -

If you have a firey, drivey, ball of insane like my Mal, you need more control. Ie. Get started in OB right away.

If you have a slow to mature dog like my GSD, it would have been better for me to do less obedience, and focus on motivation for play etc.


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## Eddie Guerra (May 5, 2009)

My thoughts are that if your dog has the proper drives and temperment for your sport of choice obedience traiining will not be a problem. Now with that being said we work all of our pups and adult dogs with as much positive training as possible. We use what ever the puppy or dog will work for. I find we have less conflict this way. I have seen way too many dogs that go off into the zone of no return because there training is out of balance Too much bitework and no or little obedience makes for harder training...just my thoughts..


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## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

Well, for me I start OB as soon as I get a pup, its all reward based, marker training. Shaping, luring to put agood foundation on the pup. Start with food move to toy/tug after teething. I live 225miles from my club, my dogs get 10x more OB training as bitework. I teach not 1 but 2 out commands by the age of 6mo (one means out/guard one just means let go) the only things I wait to start teaching until a pup is older (around a year) are search for an object and food refusal. Heeling, positions, send out, absence, retrieves I start very young. Also regular manners and house training stuff like place command and boundaries(not allowed in the kitchen) etc

All this and tricks and various other little things. But all positive, fun for the pup, I don't introduce correction until they start to need it (age depends on the pup, not usually before 9mo) Has never affected the bitework. The bitework sessions with pups are separate from OB, the first many months its just bite development/targeting etc. 6-8mo we will start introducing outs, working on the guard, maybe a sit or down here and there. Gradually increase the control in the bitework, how much, how fast depends on the pup. 

As has been said already, it depends on the way you train and what your pup is like. Some people don't start OB until the pup is a year old or more and do fine. Some start OB young and do fine. Some will crush the dog no matter what order they do things in.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Karen IMO it boils down to HOW you do OB and not when. Yank and crank before the animal hits the field is a mistake. It should be very positive all the way, to and from the field. You can't have bite work without it and doing it beforehand should set the stage for WHO IS IN CHARGE. Like sheep work, you are allowing the dog to do this and YOU set the standards for the FUN!


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## Lisa Brazeau (May 6, 2010)

I did straight marker with my GSD, no yank and crank, and he was still a little drive-supressed due to wanting to be right all the time, and not very drivey as a pup. While frustration brings a lot of dogs up in drive, his frustration would supress him. If I would have let him be, and play with him a while I think he would have come out/up a little more. But as he has matured his drive has turned up considerably, although he will still 'quit' a little if he feels he can't win/get it right.

Yes, if you have the perfect dog from the onset (the right dog for the sport) it shouldn't matter. But there are those of us who love the dog first, and the sport second, and we do what we can to make it work. My GSD will never be a 'killer sport dog,' but we'll train and see what we can work out.


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