# AKC protection sport approved



## Jerry Lyda

I think this is good others may not. Here's what the AKC has said about it.
http://www.akc.org/news/index.cfm?article_id=2876


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## Sarah Hall

Hmm... makes me both worried and excited. The worried part is that the rules aren't going to be strict enough and we're going to have more unstable dogs taught to bite. The excited part is if this may be a step in the right direction for the German Shepherd's future in the US. I'm wondering if the idea of what a German Shepherd SHOULD be (as well as the other approved breeds in this sport that are suffering a plight like the GSD) is finally getting into the director's minds! This will change, somewhat, the breeding of the German Shepherd Dog because the average show GSD cannot compete without risk of injury in protection. Perhaps all dogs to compete will be required to have hips/elbows OFA'd or PennHip'ed?! I hope so. This may start to change the AKC's guidelines on breeding, and may bring it one step closer to an SV-style breeding program. That would put a LOT of breeders out of business, but it should be about the quality of the dogs, not the breeder's bottom line. Maybe I'm getting too worked up over such a small step, but I wonder what the ripple effect will be 10 years down the line?!


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## Stacia Porter

Sarah Hall said:


> Hmm... makes me both worried and excited. The worried part is that the rules aren't going to be strict enough and we're going to have more unstable dogs taught to bite. The excited part is if this may be a step in the right direction for the German Shepherd's future in the US. I'm wondering if the idea of what a German Shepherd SHOULD be (as well as the other approved breeds in this sport that are suffering a plight like the GSD) is finally getting into the director's minds! This will change, somewhat, the breeding of the German Shepherd Dog because the average show GSD cannot compete without risk of injury in protection. Perhaps all dogs to compete will be required to have hips/elbows OFA'd or PennHip'ed?! I hope so. This may start to change the AKC's guidelines on breeding, and may bring it one step closer to an SV-style breeding program. That would put a LOT of breeders out of business, but it should be about the quality of the dogs, not the breeder's bottom line. Maybe I'm getting too worked up over such a small step, but I wonder what the ripple effect will be 10 years down the line?!


I have a slightly different worry. I''m thinking this "WDS" title won't be anywhere near as stringent as a SchH or ring title, and therefore will lessen the meaning of traditional working dog titles. It's going to depend on teh rules and regulations set out for this "sport". I also put no stock in AKC titles and am wondering if this isn't going to just feul the sale of the AmBred shepherd (look, he has a WDS along with his Ch!!).

I guess what I'm getting at is will we see the intensity and proper working drives in these titled dogs, or will they be shadows of SchH titled ones?


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## Sarah Hall

Very true. I'm only HOPING these trials will be strictly regulated. Of course, we are talking AKC here :roll:
Plus the GSDCA is going to be overseeing the trials for AKC, and we all know where THEIR allegiance lies :evil:


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## Jerry Lyda

My understanding is that the Schutzhund rules will apply.


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## Sarah Hall

Hmm... this will be very interesting to see how this turns out. All those hotshot AKC show breeders will be blown out of the water by German style GSDs!


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## Bob Scott

I'm really up in the air over this one. If to many ASS (American Show Shepherd) dogs fail in attempts to get titiles, two things will happen. Weak, nervy dogs will be getting bite trained  , and requirements for titles will start becomming weaker so these dogs can earn one. 
Who will be the judges and helpers for these events? I belong to a WDA club and we're not real keen on it.


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## Stacia Porter

Bob Scott said:


> I'm really up in the air over this one. If to many ASS (American Show Shepherd) dogs fail in attempts to get titiles, two things will happen. Weak, nervy dogs will be getting bite trained  , and requirements for titles will start becomming weaker so these dogs can earn one.
> Who will be the judges and helpers for these events? I belong to a WDA club and we're not real keen on it.


I don't think we'll see the German style dogs winning; I think we'll see the AmBred dogs being chosen over the German ones to further the AKC agenda. I'm just not a fan of this idea. 

I also think it will end in weak, nervy dogs being bite trained, which will increase teh number of vicious bites these breeds will be accused of, which will end the WDS program and further negative public opinion of the breeds. It will lead to more backlash against Schutzhund in general, and ring sport...which means more prejudice for our honest working dogs.

I just smell a rat here.


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## Sarah Hall

Good points Bob and Stacia. I thought it said that each parent organization is in charge. So that would mean, for German Shepherds, the GSDCA, which means they will, in turn, put it on the GSDCA-WDA. :roll: 
I just hope this WON'T turn out like what you both are saying. For the sake of the breed. It's only a matter of time for those unstable ASS(Thank you for that one Bob :wink: ) to bite a few people and then BSL will spread like wildfire. The'll say "Look at these SHOW DOGS that are biting! The breed really IS bad, and [insert city name here] will not allow them in city limits!"
 Then I'll just have to move...


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## Mike Russell

OK, here are my thoughts on it...

1. It's about time! This program has been in the works for a LONG time, I've been following it for about 2-3 years.

2. This appears to be the AKC trying to get in line with FCI/SV demands. AKC/GSDCA were supposedly told they had 10yrs to get some sort of working minimum standard going for the GSD or they might end up losing being able to register them internationally.

3. The GSDCA-WDA should be worried. If this takes off, then the GSDCA will finally get rid of the "red headed stepchild" named the WDA. USCA should be worried as well, if the AKC WD program gets off the ground and going, USCA doesn't have the funds to compete with AKC programs and will end up losing members. Honestly, it serves them right for all the BS fighting rather than working together.

4. Just because the program is an AKC event doesn't mean that subpar dogs will pass. AKC is very concerned about any sort of protection work, so they are going to be very strict about this. The idea that AmCan Line dogs would be chosen over Euro line dogs is funny and sounds like paranoid rambling...and if I were a judge and an AmCan line were better than the Euro line, then I'd place it higher though I don't see that being a common occurence in these events.

5. If the AKC event gets recognition as a working title by the FCI/SV and was easier than a VPG title (haven't seen the rules lately, but heard they were to be the same as IPO), then I'd think the Euro Showline people would be rejoicing. That way they can have their "pretty" dogs getting titled and brag about strong temperament and diverse abilities, when actually they're doing easier work (and probably still doing it subpar).


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## Sarah Hall

I'm sure there are a handful of sound American Shepherds, but if you want to compare, more GERMAN German Shepherds are working dogs (protection, schutzhund, police service dog, etc.) than American Shepherds because of their mental soundness. I am not a fan of show shepherds here in America (even some of the German lines are getting out of hand), but it's still my opinion that if this thing is run correctly, then the true Shepherd will shine. Maybe von Stephanitz's ideals shall re-enter the minds of breeders.


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## Stacia Porter

Mike Russell said:


> 5. If the AKC event gets recognition as a working title by the FCI/SV and was easier than a VPG title (haven't seen the rules lately, but heard they were to be the same as IPO), then I'd think the Euro Showline people would be rejoicing. That way they can have their "pretty" dogs getting titled and brag about strong temperament and diverse abilities, when actually they're doing easier work (and probably still doing it subpar).


Love the diatribe on European show dogs. Always a treat to read about my "subpar" dog in the morning.

I still think this is a bad idea. I sort of liked the AKC keeping its nose out of working dog sport...


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## Mike Russell

Stacia Porter said:


> Love the diatribe on European show dogs. Always a treat to read about my "subpar" dog in the morning.


Take a look at a few vids on the Family Treasures site. Count how many dogs either don't engage or do a poor job of barely hanging on during the protection work on the Sieger show videos. Then go to the National SchH events videos and look at the difference in drive, courage, and grip.


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## Bob Scott

Another thing to ponder. The GSDCA and the WDA are always butting heads. It seemS the WDA would be the logical choice to run the program, but according to the article, it will be the GSDCA. :-k 
The "red headed stepchild", as Mike R so well put it, may be up for adoption.


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## Mike Russell

Actually, what would probably happen if this program went through and GSDCA was one of the main entities behind it, they would no longer need the WDA and would probably cut all funding and disband it.

USCA would find out that this is NOT a thing they want, because once the WDA is gone and the AKC & GSDCA start pouring money into this, the USCA would lose members as well and end up going away eventually. They'd be completely shut out, seeing as AKC is the only FCI recognized registering entity and the GSDCA is the recognized Breed Parent Club in this country...which means if the sport resembles IPO very closely, then the GSDCA will select members to compete at the FCI & WUSV events. They will not be as friendly to USCA as the WDA is, they'll just tell them "No" flat out and recommend they join the GSDCA and get with the program if they want to compete.

DVG may or may not be effected, as they are an all breed club and never really had much influence on these things in America. So that will leave the status of SchH and its "major players" in the USA in a major upset...and might end up making USCA going back to all breed just to keep membership up.

This is all speculation, of course, and I wouldn't expect this to all happen rapidly. It is how I see it going if the AKC WD program really takes off though.


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## Woody Taylor

Dumb question, I guess, given that I'm not seeing it brought up in the thread (or I missed it): why would they not have put Mals and Belgian Sheepdogs in the "approved breeds" list?

I guess I can see where you all would be hesitant about being excited about it...on the other hand, I think it would only help the sorry state of things in these (4) breeds today if they're diligent about policing it. The notion of breed conformation from the AKC's perspective extending out to working ability seems to be a smart.

Actually I'm just being selfish, maybe this means I can show up to my local AKC-chartered training school with a prong now. ;-) Annie will be ecstatic that she can get rid of the Gentle Leader for ob proofing. :lol:

Edited to ask...let's say it takes off...isn't the training community for this event going to be pulled from the Schutzhund/Ring community? It's not like AKC ob clubs know how to teach bitework. Wouldn't that at least provide that some positive "genes" are brought over?


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## Jerry Lyda

Woody, I don't think I'm the only GSD owner that only competes in schutzhund/ASR or any other ring sport. I am also a board member of the local GSD AKC club. There is probably others as well. I think it is a good thing the AKC finally doing this. The way I understand it is the reason other breeds are not in it is because it's a test period for a certain amount of time. I also don't think you'll be seeing a lot of showline dogs in it either. It takes a special person who is willing to train for WD titles. The run around the ring show person will not be doing this. Not enough dedication there. You will see some that have these dogs that will be dedicated enough to title their dogs. It's not so much that the showline dogs won't do this sport, it's more that the people with these dogs won't. Agreed that most of the showline dogs won't but some will. Let's set back and see what happens.


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## Woody Taylor

Jerry Lyda said:


> Woody, I don't think I'm the only GSD owner that only competes in schutzhund/ASR or any other ring sport. I am also a board member of the local GSD AKC club. There is probably others as well. I think it is a good thing the AKC finally doing this. The way I understand it is the reason other breeds are not in it is because it's a test period for a certain amount of time. I also don't think you'll be seeing a lot of showline dogs in it either. It takes a special person who is willing to train for WD titles. The run around the ring show person will not be doing this. Not enough dedication there. You will see some that have these dogs that will be dedicated enough to title their dogs. It's not so much that the showline dogs won't do this sport, it's more that the people with these dogs won't. Agreed that most of the showline dogs won't but some will. Let's set back and see what happens.


I don't see any problem with your logic, sir. I guess I'd say as a n00b that even the six or so months exposed to forums and training that you all are involved in changed my notions of what expectations one should have in a good GSD, etc. Any other way to educate people on breeds you all care about and qualities you like in them is goodness, IMHO.


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## Mike Russell

The Belgian Shepherds aren't on the "approved list" because thier parent club(s) didn't push to get the AKC to do this. The Bouv, GSD, Dobe, & Rottie parent clubs did...since they showed the most interest and pushed for it the hardest, they are the ones allowed to do the WD program during the test period. Who knows what will happen after the test period.


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## Jerry Lyda

Amen


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## Woody Taylor

Mike Russell said:


> The Belgian Shepherds aren't on the "approved list" because thier parent club(s) didn't push to get the AKC to do this. The Bouv, GSD, Dobe, & Rottie parent clubs did...since they showed the most interest and pushed for it the hardest, they are the ones allowed to do the WD program during the test period. Who knows what will happen after the test period.


I figured this would be the answer, Mike! ;-) I think Bouvs are pretty cool, so I'm personally interested to see them developed out for this kind of work.

Now that I think of it, I have never heard anyone in these forums comment on AKC/American bred Mals and Tervs and Groens...what's their story? What kind of dogs are they breeding out?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Nervy junk.


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## Woody Taylor

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Nervy junk.


It's weird that they'd take on breeds like that which are relatively unpopular as pets in the states and goof them up so bad. I'm not doubting what you say, just wondering why anyone would ever get a Mal to breed for conformation stuff.

I guess that's a larger mystery about the AKC I have never understood...just how many breeders of these animals are out there? I get Sheps, Retrivers, toy breeds...but stuff like the Mal or a Komondor? Are there more than 25 Komondors in the US? And if there are, are they just hiding under those dreadlocks of the 25?


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## Kristina Senter

While I'm not going to jump into why and anger a lot of people who think this is a good thing, I will say I think this is a very, very, very bad thing. I have some not so humble opinions on it, I'll just say....and this coming from someone who has shown confirmation in the AKC ring.


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## Woody Taylor

Kristina Senter said:


> While I'm not going to jump into why and anger a lot of people who think this is a good thing, I will say I think this is a very, very, very bad thing. I have some not so humble opinions on it, I'll just say....and this coming from someone who has shown confirmation in the AKC ring.


You're not going to anger me, and I'm interested to hear your opinion, as long as you're not bothered if I disagree with you. I have made up my mind about never having a Komondor as a pet, but other than that, I'm open.


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## Jerry Lyda

Kristine I see it MAYBE a little different. I want to wait and hear more about it. You and I may agree before this thing is over. Besides you're my buddy and Gator is awesome, not that you're not but his teeth are a lot longer than yours


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## Woody Taylor

Jerry Lyda said:


> The run around the ring show person will not be doing this. Not enough dedication there. You will see some that have these dogs that will be dedicated enough to title their dogs.


Yeah, heh, I cannot imagine any of the people from " Best in Show" will be showing up in the working ring. Hard to keep the diamond tiara on your head when a nervy GSD is trying to take it off.  

See that movie if you haven't, by the way...it's pretty funny, very clean, though the humor will go over kids' heads. But hilarious if you like dogs and like laughing at crazy show people.


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## Bob Scott

The show people will turn the dogs over to trainers just as many of them turn their dogs over to show handlers now. 
:-k I wonder how all that double handling is going to work on the bite field?   :wink:


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## Woody Taylor

Bob Scott said:


> The show people will turn the dogs over to trainers just as many of them turn their dogs over to show handlers now.
> :-k I wonder how all that double handling is going to work on the bite field?   :wink:


You never know, working dogs may be repulsed by hair gel and skipping. :twisted:


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## Kristina Senter

You're not going to anger me, and I'm interested to hear your opinion, as long as you're not bothered if I disagree with you. I have made up my mind about never having a Komondor as a pet, but other than that, I'm open. [/quote]

Hey, takes all opinions to make the world turn....no problem with that  
We had a discussion on another board and rather than write it all again, I'll cut and paste some of it.....

I showed GSDs and Siberian Huskies. As many will agree, breeding in persuit of the blue ribbon has done little to improve any breed, however I think showing has its credibility and place. While I largely dis-like the AKC, it in and of itself does not bother me. Showing is it's own specialty, and that is what gets me about this new "working dog" thing. What concerns me with a move like this is the creation of the "instaexperts".

I can hear the "you are doing this and that WRONG!" already. "Too harsh", "too much", "inhumane compared to the AKC, and they're definitely the experts of everything having to do with dogs". 
Additionally, it will cause confusion from buyers as to the REAL working quality of the parents "hey, they're working titled!" and so on. 

Someone on the other board argued that they thought that the change would allow those who thought of protection work as elusive or that the dogs were vicious would be given the chance to see the dogs at work, in the ring and relaxing with their handlers. My perspective is that anyone interested enough in seeing what real protection "sports" are really about and seeing dogs chilling with their handlers (gee, playing in the pool with the decoys all night...sounds familiar) and so on, should take the time to persue the sports and see what really goes on. Bringing the sport to them is the wrong idea, IMO. 

Again, IMO......People firmly rooted in show dogs should not be expected or allowed to mold their image of "protection work" so that people that breed dogs intended solely for show will be able to call their dogs "working dogs" . We don't hold confirmation contests at working trials and do you hear anyone complaining? You want to show a dog- go to the AKC and show the dog. You want to work the dog- leave the show ring, even if not permanately, and go to someone that knows working dogs. The key being : SOMEONE THAT KNOWS WORKING DOGS!.

A whole group of people with no experience will see it once and believe that whatever the AKC puts out must be the new standard of excellence. 
Think about it........if you talk to enough people that are totally not dog savvy, the popular misconception is that an unpapered dog cannot possibly be a purebred and that the AKC is the end-all be-all say in the dog world. Do you REALLY want these people being guided by the AKC as to what a "working dog" is?


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## Bob Scott

Good points Kristina! Again, here's where the judges, helpers, trainers will set the pace. If the people in those positions are legit, the rest :roll: hopefully, should follow through. 
WHO will be the judges, helpers, trainers? That's the biggie for me.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote:Love the diatribe on European show dogs. Always a treat to read about my "subpar" dog in the morning. 

At least he is from euro lines. My male is from American showlines. He is my dog, and while subpar, I still like him. I would never ever tell anyone he is more than he is. Discussion on dogs should NEVER be taken personally. I get in trouble a LOT, because if you bring a dog to me, I will tell you what I think. I get REAL tired of people that are sensitive of what their dogs really are and want to "Walt Disney" the damn things. I own one of the most widely slammed on versions of the GSD, and I am good with it. he is my buddy, and yes he is subpar. So "F"in what???? :lol: :lol: 

Overall I don't think the AKC stuff is going to affect us too much. The crappy show breeders will get their weak ass titles just like they do now, and charge way too much money for their "SUBPAR" :twisted: crap just like they do now.

I do worry that in a few years somehow they will become tied in with FCI and the SCH people who follow the Germans way too blindly will make it even more of a mess than it is now.

More than likely, it will do it's thing and we won't even notice........kinda like now.

Maybe we should all go and apply to be judges. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: Then we could really crank the standards and NO show people will make it. Can you see it now?? The few pussy judges they will have will be judging every weak ass piece of crap on the continent. SWEEEEEEEET!!! :lol:


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## Bob Scott

Better yet! Apply for a helper position.    :wink:


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## Stacia Porter

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> At least he is from euro lines. My male is from American showlines. He is my dog, and while subpar, I still like him. I would never ever tell anyone he is more than he is. Discussion on dogs should NEVER be taken personally. I get in trouble a LOT, because if you bring a dog to me, I will tell you what I think. I get REAL tired of people that are sensitive of what their dogs really are and want to "Walt Disney" the damn things. I own one of the most widely slammed on versions of the GSD, and I am good with it. he is my buddy, and yes he is subpar. So "F"in what???? :lol: :lol:


You're right Jeff (YES YOU CAN COPY THAT FOR FUTURE USE). I love my dog. There are just some days I hate absolute statements like that. Not all euo show dogs are sh!t. Mine isn't the best GSD in the entire world by any means, but a dog's a dog. I've seen crappy working line puppers, too. I just think there no place for arrogance; truth is one thing, arrogance is another. I really honestly don't mind criticism -- if no one ever told me there was some issue with my dog I wouldn't be able to use the info to train him, KWIM? ANd I"m certainly not into the Disney view of my shep: he has his faults! I'll be the first one to admit them (like that super sucky issue with hackling and barking at other dogs -- SUCKS THE BIG ONE).

And, FWIW, my AmBred baby has a big old case of HD  . I should have been prepared to hear the vet tell me that on Friday, but I guess I was hoping it was just soft tissue damage. No cartilage left, femur 25% affected, arthritis has already set in and she's only about 2.

Anywho, nice posts Kristina! That's what I was trying to say but just couldn't articulate.


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## Woody Taylor

Stacia Porter said:


> And, FWIW, my AmBred baby has a big old case of HD  . I should have been prepared to hear the vet tell me that on Friday, but I guess I was hoping it was just soft tissue damage. No cartilage left, femur 25% affected, arthritis has already set in and she's only about 2.


Sorry to hear that about your dog, Stacia. That sucks.


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## Mike Russell

Stacia Porter said:


> I just think there no place for arrogance; truth is one thing, arrogance is another.


You may have INFERRED arrogance, but it was not implied in any way. It was just a statement of fact, Euro Showlines on the whole are not strong working dogs...otherwise we wouldn't see "the best of the best" of them at major events running from the man, refusing to engage, or barely engaging. The dogs that are doing these things at major shows are the ones getting bred like crazy and passing on their inferior genetics all in the sake of beauty.

The problem is (and it happens on both sides) that when someone makes a statement that is based on experience with a certain sect, everyone that has an exception (whether real or imagined) to the comment jumps up and down and bitches about how they hate those kinds of statements.


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## Connie Sutherland

Stacia Porter said:


> .....And, FWIW, my AmBred baby has a big old case of HD  . I should have been prepared to hear the vet tell me that on Friday, but I guess I was hoping it was just soft tissue damage. No cartilage left, femur 25% affected, arthritis has already set in and she's only about 2. ....


I too am very sorry to hear that, Stacia.  

There are things you can do to help when the shock starts to wear off a little. 

http://www.workingdogs.com/doc0090.htm

http://www.workingdogs.com/deboer_hipdysplasia.htm

And from http://www.labbies.com/dysplasa.htm
QUOTE: Many dogs are capable of living normal lives despite HD provided that they are allowed to choose their own level of activity. END

(It doesn't matter that the site above is a Lab site.)

http://www.thepetcenter.com/xra/hd.html

I believe and have seen that range-of-motion exercise, weight management, anti-inflammation diet and maybe anti-inflammation meds,* RX and OTC, can really help manage arthritis, including the arthritis that accompanies HD. 


* including glucosamine; 
see http://www.placervillevet.com/nutraceuticals.htm


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Sorry about your dog. HD is a mother to deal with, and I have been there more than once.

SO, You're right Jeff (YES YOU CAN COPY THAT FOR FUTURE USE). this whole You're right Jeff (YES YOU CAN COPY THAT FOR FUTURE USE). Dog thing You're right Jeff (YES YOU CAN COPY THAT FOR FUTURE USE). is all a gamble You're right Jeff (YES YOU CAN COPY THAT FOR FUTURE USE). Not easy on us for sure. You're right Jeff (YES YOU CAN COPY THAT FOR FUTURE USE). 

Kinda cool that I can use this. You're right Jeff (YES YOU CAN COPY THAT FOR FUTURE USE). Have I mentioned I am always right?? You're right Jeff (YES YOU CAN COPY THAT FOR FUTURE USE). 

Always refer to me as "my leige" You're right Jeff (YES YOU CAN COPY THAT FOR FUTURE USE). 

Have I abused this?? You're right Jeff (YES YOU CAN COPY THAT FOR FUTURE USE). 

Maybe so, but it is ALWAYS WORTH IT!!!! You're right Jeff (YES YOU CAN COPY THAT FOR FUTURE USE). 

:twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:


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## Connie Sutherland

Damn it. He learned copy and paste. :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Woody Taylor

Connie Sutherland said:


> Damn it. He learned copy and paste. :lol: :lol: :lol:


He's mentioned repeatedly how much training he's forgotten, this too shall pass. :lol: :lol: :lol: Just kidding, Jeff.


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## Bob Scott

Stacia, Hang in there girl! 
It was just this Janurary when I found out Thunder was Moderate HD. That takes him out of the breeding pool, but that was nevere a concern for me. I worried for days over it till Connie gave me a pile of sites to better understand whats going on. so many people have told me about dogs that were so bad the vet told them to put the dogs down, yet the dogs never showed signs of problems. Other dogs have very little problems on film, yet have to be put down because they can't handle it. Every dog is different. My own guy shows absolutely no problems, so I'm going to follow the advice on the sites Connie gave me and not slow up what I'm doing. 
If, in later years, problems arize, I'll deal with that then.


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## Woody Taylor

I had a pretty miserable scare with it when this forum first started up. I know you probably covered all the bases, but did you have any second/third opinions? Annie's diagnosis went from "moderate HD" with the primary vet to "nothing to worry about" with the surgeon (who just happened to stop by that clinic that day, luckily) to "nothing really there except clinically silent pano" when the U of MN radiologist reviewed it. I'm not out of the woods yet, but...

In any case, I don't know if you're in a place where you can send them in for evaluation by a vet school radiologist. Maybe others here on the forum have additional resources. I'd want a second look on something this drastic.


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## Connie Sutherland

Woody Taylor said:


> Jerry Lyda said:
> 
> 
> 
> The run around the ring show person will not be doing this. Not enough dedication there. You will see some that have these dogs that will be dedicated enough to title their dogs.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, heh, I cannot imagine any of the people from " Best in Show" will be showing up in the working ring. Hard to keep the diamond tiara on your head when a nervy GSD is trying to take it off.
> 
> See that movie if you haven't, by the way...it's pretty funny, very clean, though the humor will go over kids' heads. But hilarious if you like dogs and like laughing at crazy show people.
Click to expand...

I looooooved that movie. :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Woody Taylor

Connie Sutherland said:


> I looooooved that movie. :lol: :lol: :lol:


Too many great scenes, I loved the beginning with the yuppies who took their Ch. Weimereiner to the shrink because it had seen them having sex.


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## Bob Scott

Having did the show dog scene for a few years, I could introduce you to EVERY single one of the people that were represented in that move. They really are out there! :lol: :lol:


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## Woody Taylor

Bob Scott said:


> Having did the show dog scene for a few years, I could introduce you to EVERY single one of the people that were represented in that move. They really are out there! :lol: :lol:


I hear that from a lot of folks...that's why I lean toward's Jerry's positions in this thread. I can't imagine any of those people in a bite suit. Maybe that one very mannish lady (Best line of the movie:"...Now there's a happy fella!" :lol: ).

Damn, now I have to go rent that again.


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## Stacia Porter

I did NOT count on Jeff learning to copy and paste  . My apolgies to this board (and the entire rest of the world).

I saw Andi's xrays myself and there definitely is a problem. You can see on the films that her joint is worn down and not in socket and that there is arthritis in the surrounding hip. My vet's actually really good with this...they suspected it at her first vetting on the 27th b/c she doesn't bear weight on that side. This is the official vet for the sherriff's dept in town (mostly mal's and GSD's -- incidentally our police dept has been getting duped by mal breeders sending HD + dogs their way...vet was telling me that they had about 5 mals in a row sent here from a few different breeders and all were dysplastic. She didn't say where the dogs were purchased from or anything like that, but I say fool me once, shame on you...fool me twice, LOOK ELSWHERE FOR DOGS).

Andi's actually coping really well. She can run, jump, isn't having trouble standing up, and wrestles with Achilles. The vet actually recommended Glycoflex III, not allowing her to lay on hard surfaces, keeping her lean, and letting her set the pace of exercise (in other words, when she's showing signs of fatigue let her rest). She didn't think that putting her down was necessary, or even that it would be for many years to come if we're careful. She actually has a dysplastic bitch herself (she didnt' say what breed).

They did recommend that we go ahead and have Achilles done now (he'll be 14 months on the 29th). She said that while we can't have them OFA'ed, that at least he won't be too old or too far gone for surgeries/treatments like Andi is. She also said that if we wanted to get it all over with she'd give me the number of the local Pennhip certified mobile vet. I highly doubt he's dysplastic, but since it's got to be done anyway I guess there really is no point in waiting. I actually think she misunderstood me at first; there are two vets in the practice and I normally deal with the other one so she didnt 'know Andi's story and assumed that Achilles was of the same lines. UMMMM, no! I told her he's SV papered and she turned red and said she was sorry -- no worries, he still needs to be xrayed.

Okay, thank you all for your help and support. It was hard news to take, even my husband was upset at the news. We were really hoping it was soft tissue damage from slipping on the wet kennel surface in the shelter. At any rate Andi is going to have a comfortable life now...and we're starting work towards a CGC in September with the hopes that she will be a therapy dog!


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## Connie Sutherland

Stacia Porter said:


> ....Andi's actually coping really well. She can run, jump, isn't having trouble standing up, and wrestles with Achilles. The vet actually recommended Glycoflex III, not allowing her to lay on hard surfaces, keeping her lean, and letting her set the pace of exercise (in other words, when she's showing signs of fatigue let her rest). .....It was hard news to take, even my husband was upset at the news. We were really hoping it was soft tissue damage from slipping on the wet kennel surface in the shelter. At any rate Andi is going to have a comfortable life now...and we're starting work towards a CGC in September with the hopes that she will be a therapy dog!


It IS a shock. 

But now that I've had a lot of experience with senior primary OA (and now early OA secondary to HD), it helps a ton to know that there are ways to manage it. Weight control and anti-inflammation really help to stop further damage, and the glucosamine-type supplements can even replace cartilage (this is still being "proven" and "disproven," but my experiences have been positive).

And, I know I'm becoming a broken record here, but I have 100% good to say about distilled salmon muscle oil every day as an anti-inflammation agent. It's the long-chain Omega 3 EFAs in fish muscle oil.

Some of the best: http://www.crnusa.org/o3group.html


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote:distilled salmon muscle oil 

Fish muscle??????? besides the head there isn't anything else but muscle, and I am quite sure they (the muscles) don't produce oil. Glands produce oil. You're right Jeff (YES YOU CAN COPY THAT FOR FUTURE USE). 
You're right Jeff (YES YOU CAN COPY THAT FOR FUTURE USE). 
You're right Jeff (YES YOU CAN COPY THAT FOR FUTURE USE). 

I think I will use this in all posts. Thank you so much.


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## Connie Sutherland

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote:distilled salmon muscle oil
> 
> Fish muscle???????.


LOL!

I was using "muscle" as the place where the oil is found, as opposed to the oil found in the liver (you know, like cod liver oil).

Distilled is to leave behind the heavy metals, like mercury.

But I will definitely save this: 
You're right Jeff (YES YOU CAN COPY THAT FOR FUTURE USE) 
for possible future use. :lol:


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## Connie Sutherland

BTW, not everyone agrees that fish muscle oil is preferable to fish liver oil. 

The reasons for my own preference is that liver oil is high in Vitamins A and D, which can be toxic in high doses, and that the liver is a filter for toxins in the body.


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## Stacia Porter

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote:distilled salmon muscle oil
> 
> Fish muscle??????? besides the head there isn't anything else but muscle, and I am quite sure they (the muscles) don't produce oil. Glands produce oil. You're right Jeff (YES YOU CAN COPY THAT FOR FUTURE USE).
> You're right Jeff (YES YOU CAN COPY THAT FOR FUTURE USE).
> You're right Jeff (YES YOU CAN COPY THAT FOR FUTURE USE).
> 
> I think I will use this in all posts. Thank you so much.


OMG I've created a monster  . Okay, Jeff: we're going to imose a once a day limit on teh use of the following phrase:

You're right Jeff (YES YOU CAN COPY THAT FOR FUTURE USE). 

Use it wisely!!!!!!!

Fish muscle oil? I'm willing to try anything to help slow the progression for this baby! And of course come to terms withh the fact that if she's this far gone at only 2 years of age chances are she'll be pretty bad off as a senior. I could be pleasantly surprised, but as an army wife I've learned to prepare for the worst in all situations. Then when crap happens it doesn't seem so darn bad...


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## Connie Sutherland

QUOTE: I'm willing to try anything to help slow the progression for this baby! END

The link I gave you to the fish oil companies that voluntarily keep to the standards of the monograph at the site,
http://www.crnusa.org/o3group.html
doesn't include all the good ones, but it's a good quick place to find one if you want.

Liver oil says "liver oil" on it, and muscle oil just says "salmon oil" or some other fish oil; not all of them use the word muscle on the bottle.

If you want some non-commercial info about Omega 3 essential fatty acids, I'll be happy to supply links.

One type of Omega 3 EFAs (short-chain) are generally found in plant-type products (especially flax, but also other oils like canola, olive oil, oily nuts), but a different type (long-chain) of EFAs are found in ocean products. 

I buy both flax oil and salmon oil, but some dogs are allergic to flax seeds. I have OA and other degenerative joint stuff myself, secondary to post-polio syndrome, and I use salmon and flax oils for me and the dogs.

Inflammation is involved with arthritis, allergies, even coronary artery disease....and much more. Adding the big anti-inflammation foods to the diet seems to me like a solid first step. JMO!


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## Stacia Porter

Connie Sutherland said:


> QUOTE: I'm willing to try anything to help slow the progression for this baby! END
> 
> The link I gave you to the fish oil companies that voluntarily keep to the standards of the monograph at the site,
> http://www.crnusa.org/o3group.html
> doesn't include all the good ones, but it's a good quick place to find one if you want.
> 
> Liver oil says "liver oil" on it, and muscle oil just says "salmon oil" or some other fish oil; not all of them use the word muscle on the bottle.
> 
> If you want some non-commercial info about Omega 3 essential fatty acids, I'll be happy to supply links.
> 
> One type of Omega 3 EFAs (short-chain) are generally found in plant-type products (especially flax, but also other oils like canola, olive oil, oily nuts), but a different type (long-chain) of EFAs are found in ocean products.
> 
> I buy both flax oil and salmon oil, but some dogs are allergic to flax seeds. I have OA and other degenerative joint stuff myself, secondary to post-polio syndrome, and I use salmon and flax oils for me and the dogs.
> 
> Inflammation is involved with arthritis, allergies, even coronary artery disease....and much more. Adding the big anti-inflammation foods to the diet seems to me like a solid first step. JMO!


Makes sense to me, too, Connie! I have fibromyalgia and I find that diet makes a huge difference in how I feel (unless, of course, it rains...then I'm pretty darn useless lol). Maybe that's why I took the HD news so badly...I know what joint pain feels like and I felt so bad that this poor baby has been allowed to be in pain all of this time (and then had to lay on those cold concrete floors for weeks before being rescued). I can just imagine how muc that hip hurts, yet she still runs, jumps, and smiles. I guess I should take some inspiration from her.

Thanks so much for the links, Connie! You're such a big help.

And sorry, Jerry, for hijacking the thread. Back to discussion about WDS...

I suppose you're all right: the average show person isn't going to get down and dirty with bitework. I just don't want this to turn into one of those, "Well, we're going to lower teh standard to meet hte needs of the AmBred GSD and then tell all of you people who've been doing this a while how you're doing it all wrong." Or worse: find that AmBred breeders are using the lower-standards WDS titles to justify their prices/breeding tactics...


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## Sarah Hall

> The vet actually recommended Glycoflex III


I love Glycoflex III for joints. Anything with Glucosamine is good for joints. If she starts getting bad with her pain a few years down, try for Rimadyl. Thats an anti-inflammatary/arthritis RX.
We're all here to support you, and if you have any questions you know where to get some good answers! 
What did they recommend the salmon oil for? I use if for it's coat enhancing qualities, when needed.


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## Stacia Porter

Sarah Hall said:


> The vet actually recommended Glycoflex III
> 
> 
> 
> I love Glycoflex III for joints. Anything with Glucosamine is good for joints. If she starts getting bad with her pain a few years down, try for Rimadyl. Thats an anti-inflammatary/arthritis RX.
> We're all here to support you, and if you have any questions you know where to get some good answers!
> What did they recommend the salmon oil for? I use if for it's coat enhancing qualities, when needed.
Click to expand...

Connie suggested the fish oil. Omega 3 fatty acids are good for joint health. It's always worth a try: at least she'll have a nice coat LOL. 

I had a sheltie on Rimadyl for arthritis, but he didn't do well on it. I remember reading something about Rimadyl in a negative light....can't remember what though.


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## Woody Taylor

Stacia Porter said:


> I had a sheltie on Rimadyl for arthritis, but he didn't do well on it. I remember reading something about Rimadyl in a negative light....can't remember what though.


Ed Frawley makes a few references to Rimadyl, here's the one I always remember (CAPS HAVE THAT EFFECT ON ME EVEN MORE THAN regular writing  )



> Some Vets recommend RIMADYL - I am very much aginst this drug - its a bad drug. It can It can kill dogs. DO NOT GIVE YOUR DOG RIMADYL.


http://www.leerburg.com/hipart.htm

I don't know either way.


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## Connie Sutherland

Woody Taylor said:


> Stacia Porter said:
> 
> 
> 
> I had a sheltie on Rimadyl for arthritis, but he didn't do well on it. I remember reading something about Rimadyl in a negative light....can't remember what though.
> 
> 
> 
> ..Ed Frawley makes a few references to Rimadyl, here's the one I always remember (CAPS HAVE THAT EFFECT ON ME EVEN MORE THAN regular writing  )....
> 
> 
> 
> Some Vets recommend RIMADYL - I am very much aginst this drug - its a bad drug. It can It can kill dogs. DO NOT GIVE YOUR DOG RIMADYL.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know either way.
Click to expand...

Here's a site with some cases of Rimadyl gone bad.

http://www.srdogs.com/Pages/rimadylfr.html

It's one of those drugs (IMO) that might be effective sometimes but can also be prescribed too often and overseen too little, with side effects too frequently not made known to the owner beforehand.


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## Connie Sutherland

Connie Sutherland said:


> Woody Taylor said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stacia Porter said:
> 
> 
> 
> I had a sheltie on Rimadyl for arthritis, but he didn't do well on it. I remember reading something about Rimadyl in a negative light....can't remember what though.
> 
> 
> 
> ..Ed Frawley makes a few references to Rimadyl, here's the one I always remember (CAPS HAVE THAT EFFECT ON ME EVEN MORE THAN regular writing  )....
> 
> 
> 
> Some Vets recommend RIMADYL - I am very much aginst this drug - its a bad drug. It can It can kill dogs. DO NOT GIVE YOUR DOG RIMADYL.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know either way.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Here's a site with some cases of Rimadyl gone bad.
> 
> http://www.srdogs.com/Pages/rimadylfr.html
> 
> It's one of those drugs (IMO) that can be effective but can also be prescribed too often and overseen too little, with side effects too frequently not made known to the owner beforehand.
Click to expand...


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## Connie Sutherland

I'm posting a link in the "Health and Diet" forum here to a good overview (IMO) of Omega 3 EFAs and their role in decreasing inflammation.


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## Thomas Barriano

*Dobermanns*

Hi Guys,

I was the local coordinator for the WDS Doberman Pilot trial on Colorado
Springs in 03. Dubheasa was one of two females to earn the WDM III
title. The final demo trial, before the program is official 1/1/07 will be
in Denver at the DPCA Nationals in September. I am helping put this
trial on also. I plan on entering Dubheasas son Jago. The AKC WDS
program is Schutzhund/IPO done according to IPO rules. Hopefully the
Malinois club will be the next to join,with Giants and other breeds to follow.


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