# Teaching a directed search for blind using a traffic cone



## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Decided to start training again today so I did this:
Teaching a directed search for blind using a traffic cone to be generalised after.
Today with Sali

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TD2Z1cgKRNw&feature=youtu.be


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I look forward to watching the video later Matt.

I taught the same exericse to my mastiff, which originally started with a small garden table, then a trash can, a vehicle, and eventually a building. Later, just for kicks I put a computer memory card on the ground and sent her around it. 

At the time I was training her for SchH - everything with her had to be done using food. I had never seen anyone teach a directed (blind) search using food. I think the TD would have just preferred if I left the dog at home. So rather than waste club resourse or field time, I started it at home and figured it out. Turns out, it's a lot easier to train than I thought it would be.

Later, I used the same techniques with my Dutch (not using food) and had her running 5 blinds by 7 months. Anyway, I look forward to seeing what's in your video. Sali the Mali is fun to watch


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## David C DeSimone (Jan 6, 2015)

Matt,

Nice work and great idea. If you have a local Habitat for Humanity or junk store you can pick up bi-fold doors for 5-10 bucks? They make great portable blinds.


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## John Wolf (Dec 12, 2009)

Looks good Matt

I don't know if this will be applicable to your training, but I put the following video together on how I start the schutzhund blind search. 

http://highintrial.com/blind-search/


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Thanks for the replies dudes and dudettes  I shall aim for the memory card, that sounds like a good indicator the concept has taken 




David C DeSimone said:


> Matt,
> 
> Nice work and great idea. If you have a local Habitat for Humanity or junk store you can pick up bi-fold doors for 5-10 bucks? They make great portable blinds.


What an awesome idea! thanks


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

John Wolf said:


> Looks good Matt
> 
> I don't know if this will be applicable to your training, but I put the following video together on how I start the schutzhund blind search.
> 
> http://highintrial.com/blind-search/


Dude that vid was really cool  I'm gonna have a squint at your site now for more :mrgreen::mrgreen:


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## David C DeSimone (Jan 6, 2015)

John Wolf said:


> Looks good Matt
> 
> I don't know if this will be applicable to your training, but I put the following video together on how I start the schutzhund blind search.
> 
> http://highintrial.com/blind-search/



This is awesome!!! I will be borrowing if you don't mind

Thanks John


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Matt, very nice!

John, Excellent, informative video!

I really like the idea of the poles to build muscle memory.


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## John Wolf (Dec 12, 2009)

Thanks for the nice words on the video. You are more than welcome to share it.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

John Wolf said:


> Thanks for the nice words on the video. You are more than welcome to share it.


I bought a bunch of drive way markers at the Dollar Tree a few weeks ago. I wasn't sure what I was going to do with them....now I know 

When is the next blind search video coming out ?


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

More:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8_Y4NpmEp4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MR3DdE8cFw


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Looks good but one suggestion if I may.

The dog is stopping right in the spot where you toss the tennis ball. She's simply waiting for you to toss it there again. 

I would wait till she made the turn and then toss the ball behind you.

I'll bet she doesn't hesitate after a few of those. :wink:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

:lol: I watched till the end of the video this time. 

Excellent adjustment on your part! :grin:


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Thats interesting Matt. Interesting in the respect that on field, you see people teach it a relatively specific way. Off field, you don't see a lot of discussion about how it might be done. As expected there were some differences between what you do and what I did. 

For example, I don't use the same object when teaching directed searches. In the same session, yes but usually I find something different to use with each new session. Recently I used a bundled tarp. 

As the dog rounds the object I give a different command to have her return to me. The reward is offered from me or almost immediately after I redirect the dog to another location, which I also do early on. It's typically to a specific area for feeding, which the dog has to go to and sit/wait. 

The wait is very short, as I follow right behind the dog and as soon as she sits I put her food down. The only purpose of doing that is the dog knows the exact location, it's purpose is well engrained and it will go there quickly, which makes redirecting to a second location pretty easy to incorporate.

Sounds more complicated and involved than it is. The area this is initially done is is relatively small. Glad to see you offered up some videos to share your method. Is your aim IPO or is this just an IPO inspired exercise?

At this point, I don't know that I see myself entering the sport any time soon, but this is an exercise I will continue to teach to every one of my dogs. I've used it for finding people, during hunting, retrieving objects, whatever.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Nicole Stark said:


> Thats interesting Matt. Interesting in the respect that on field, you see people teach it a relatively specific way. Off field, you don't see a lot of discussion about how it might be done. As expected there were some differences between what you do and what I did.
> 
> *For example, I don't use the same object when teaching directed searches. In the same session, yes but usually I find something different to use with each new session. * Recently I used a bundled tarp.
> 
> ...



Bolded is a good idea, I will try that, thanks!

Just me and Sali buggering about really, I don't have a currently have a dog that would do well enough to warrant the driving each weekend. Dobes don't have the ethic and Sali does not have the stability


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

"Just me and Sali buggering about really, I don't have a currently have a dog that would do well enough to warrant the driving each weekend. Dobes don't have the ethic and Sali does not have the stability" 
:sad:


All the more reason to give you kudos for the effort you do put into your dogs. :wink:


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> "Just me and Sali buggering about really, I don't have a currently have a dog that would do well enough to warrant the driving each weekend. Dobes don't have the ethic and Sali does not have the stability"
> :sad:
> 
> All the more reason to give you kudos for the effort you do put into your dogs. :wink:


I agree Bob. That might be why I find his contributions rather interesting. There's an authenticity to what he offers and I can appreciate that. It's relatable and relevant to most anyone who posts or reads from the forum. Seems to me that he's keepin' it real where his dogs are concerned, but is still willing to put in the time to explore and enjoy his dogs, and apparently a rat too. :-$


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Nicole Stark said:


> I agree Bob. That might be why I find his contributions rather interesting. There's an authenticity to what he offers and I can appreciate that. It's relatable and relevant to most anyone who posts or reads from the forum. Seems to me that he's keepin' it real where his dogs are concerned, but is still willing to put in the time to explore and enjoy his dogs, and apparently a rat too. :-$



Any good dog should kill a rat. You just don't want the dog to eat them. 

I had a Norwich Terrier that was a great mouser but if I wasn't right there to pull the soggy mouse out of his mouth down it went. :lol:


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Thanks dudes and dudettes, took it to the field..............

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cx4e09-SDQ8


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Matt i see you and your dog are having fun together,real dogsport!
I do not want to criticize what you are doing just maybe a few suggestions.
I used to train this exercise believing there should be a reward in the blind ,bite, ball, food, etc.
You only want your dog to go around it but that is not a blind search,it is more of a send away with recall.
Maybe you could put the ball inside the cone and let her do a find and bark before you recall her or attach a long string to the cone and you could pull it over so she can get her reward!
This way it is also easier to teach her to go from one cone to the next article to be searched.
All the time she is running from you she seems to keep an eye on you,it would look nicer if she wants to examine the object you are sending her to.
Keep on having fun!


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Now that is an awesome suggestion, thanks 

I shall have to find some very long string and try it out!

Anyway, here's how the rest of that session went:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgZvUVwx1zI

and it didn't get much better than that lolz ah well, I shall try Jacks plan


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Looking forward to seeing your next video.,you will have to start from the beginning by showing her where you hide the ball and make her speak.
Her attention should shift from you to the cone and that should be the only place where she gets her reward.
She should run towards the cone faster then she runs to you.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Jack, that is good advice if he's looking to model the exercise primarily after sport instead of using the activity as a way of directing her around objects of his choosing.

Matt, about what Jack said with regard to actually examining or finding reward within the "blind. With my mastiff one of the first things I did (I don't think I mentioned it previously) when I taught her to go to and then eventually around the objects was I would put her in a sit, then I'd put her bowl of food down (behind the object and out of view) and send her to it, eventually like the stake idea moving it further around until I had possession of it. 

Your FFS video was funny, where did she go?

BTW things are progressing nicely. You guys have cute accents LOL.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Why thanks 

Oh she just ran about confused then came back, lolz


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Matt Vandart said:


> Why thanks
> 
> Oh she just ran about confused then came back, lolz




Possibly to much distance to early in the training?

I never add time or distance to an exercise until it's what I want at the closer distance or shorter time. 

Otherwise you can compound problems to get what you want. 

It then becomes "How can I stop that one such and such behavior that is in the middle of the exercise"?

One step gets you where you want to be if you add all the good steps together to make a ladder.

If one or more of those steps are less then good then climbing that ladder can be shaky.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Ok took her down the field with the intention of trying a few of the suggestions but Sali seems to have got with the program on her onesies 

Had a bit of an 'incident' involving a terrier and a whippet that were just let out the car and left to run wild, fortunately they live in a house backing onto the field and after some zoomies went in their garden 
Sali dealt with it better than me HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Getting closer by the day. By the way this has all been videod in 'real time' as in the total time of the vids is the total time we have spent doing this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XO4PIAfYGM&feature=youtu.be


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

by the way I'm not biggin myself up with that last statement I am just inaw of how amazing this little dog is


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## John Michaels (Oct 15, 2014)

Gonna have ta try this one ...thx guys!


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Ok made a compilation vid of the sessions so far if anyone is interested:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCIRhi9VgMM


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Done deal as far as I am concerned, I'm happy with this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CTLbVM0fl0

Gonna start generalizing it now.

As a sideline I am adding a bit of motivation to search a blind:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxsNB-Ro5PI


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re the vid : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CTLbVM0fl0

nice work !
i'm jealous of that big area you have to work in :mrgreen::mrgreen:


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Really nice to see your motivation and progress,looking forward to seeing the next step.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Thanks dudes.

Big picture: teach her a directed search to go out of sight

Details: If she finds a decoy to B/H or strike if required. I won't be doing a sitting ready to be kicked in the throat B/H like in IPO although I am aware of why this type is used and preferred. I will be teaching her to keep on her feet and move if required.

In the second vid I am just adding the tug rather than a decoy because I wan't to have something I can use as reward should the tug not be there.

Sali finds tug in blind- B/H till I get there.
Sali finds no tug- she comes back to me where she will find the tug.

Alternatively I might just shape this behavior into a 'find someone and alert me' like in SAR however I don't think Sali has the correct mindset for finding lost/injured people tbh. I might do that with my dobes instead.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Also Rick- it's pretty cool training areas except for the amount of people who just let their totally out of control dogs bowl up to you, despite it being obvious you are training your dog. This is also handy though I spose for distraction training. I have been conditioned to expect Sali to react to this, but she hardly ever does now, so I just look like a mental case when I grab her collar like she's about to fall down into the chasm of clams.


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Big picture,when she knows the reward is in the last blind she still has to go around and check all the other blinds because you never know!


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Yah Jack, I think this will be an issue, I will have a think about it.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

curious Matt

have you placed a tug or ball out of site behind a cone that she will see as she rounds a cone when you have only given the command to go out ? if not, how do you think she would respond ?


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

I can show you rick, but with a blind instead.
For now here is me and Sali transferring the sendaway to a blind (without any reward in the blind) 
She is to go round it and come back to me:

http://youtu.be/laMTAWdkrxU


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Good job Matt. I've been meaning to ask you. Are you satisfied with how she outs?


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

u prob don't want a detail but i'll pass one along anyway so u can have a chance to explain it 
- at about 1:18 u laffed cause she went out when u said heel

your back was to the camera but it kinda looked like you gave her the send away signal .. 
1. if that was the case, it's a great example of how body language and physical gestures over ride verbals when giving a command
or 
2. were u doing that on purpose and simply trying to proof the verbal command ?

the Q about putting a distraction at the blind/cone was just curiosity to know how far ur gonna go with this behaviour since i think u said previously it was a done deal

take care


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

looking good Matt.

To follow up on Nicole's question, the outs will be much cleaner if you mark them and give her back the ball as reward. 

Keep hold of the rope and play tug with her then.

3,4 time in a row and then send her again and do the same again.

That will help convince her that letting go is a rewardable behavior and not just a loss of the reward.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Rick- it's a done deal because what I wanted to do was send her round a cone on direction as a foundation for a blind search/building search. The objective was to teach her to recognize and then connect the had signal with "go look behind there" no distractions required, complicating matters.
Also the finished product will include "go behind there and have a squint and if there is a tug/ball/decoy there I want you to bark at it/bite it" if I teach her to ignore the tug/ball when she goes round the cone and just come back to me I will be setting her up for failure on the blind/confusion on the blind. So yeah, done deal.

Nicole I am..... ok ..... with her outs, Sali is very possessive, believe I have tried the lot (re:bobs suggestion) it's genetic with her to just hold on no matter what, it's like she goes into a zone. When I took her to try herding she got hold of one of the goats and hung on while the big male goat continuously butted her till I could get to her and basically had to choke her off, which I HATE doing. That was the end of her herding aspirations.
I know how to train an out, it just doesn't work with Sali (all my other dogs are just fine) It doesn't bother me as I am not going to compete with Sali and like a PD dog if she ever has to bite a 'badguy' in anger I'm not really giving a shit if she doesn't respond first call. The picture you see here is so much better than it used to be anyway, so progress is being made, slowly. Having said that I did do a session of out training just after this as it does piss me off sometimes, it really depends on how high (in drive) she is if you get me.

Re: Rusted up vice like grip (sali at 7 weeks)
https://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D6b_Xj8UmswI&h=dAQGp2VCo


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re : "Rick- it's a done deal because what I wanted to do was send her round a cone on direction as a foundation for a blind search/building search. The objective was to teach her to recognize and then connect the had signal with "go look behind there" no distractions required, complicating matters.
Also the finished product will include "go behind there and have a squint and if there is a tug/ball/decoy there I want you to bark at it/bite it" if I teach her to ignore the tug/ball when she goes round the cone and just come back to me I will be setting her up for failure on the blind/confusion on the blind. So yeah, done deal."

gotcha...was not clear on what a done deal meant and realise now if you want her to alert at a cone or blind you will eventually put something there to get her attention rather than do a flyby and look to you for the reward
.....which also sounds like it's not quite a "done deal" //lol//

which to me would mean done deal means "done" for that level of the end result 

yes - no - maybe ??


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

yes that's correct Rick


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Matt Vandart said:


> Nicole I am..... ok ..... with her outs, Sali is very possessive, believe I have tried the lot (re:bobs suggestion) it's genetic with her to just hold on no matter what, it's like she goes into a zone.
> 
> I know how to train an out, it just doesn't work with Sali (all my other dogs are just fine) It doesn't bother me as I am not going to compete with Sali and like a PD dog if she ever has to bite a 'badguy' in anger I'm not really giving a shit if she doesn't respond first call. The picture you see here is so much better than it used to be anyway, so progress is being made, slowly. Having said that I did do a session of out training just after this as it does piss me off sometimes, it really depends on how high (in drive) she is if you get me.
> 
> ...


Ayuh, I am more than well acquainted with that. Initially I put some videos in my response of her early days, but I remembered that they were marked private for a reason. People who have been there and done that, will understand why. It's a process and sometimes not always pretty. So yeah Matt, I do understand. Sometimes you gotta choose the hill you are going to die on.

I'll add this though, it was taken for an entirely different reason and with someone inexperienced working dogs. But the reason I am adding it is because it does show that eventually she got to the point where things were different than they once were, which for many was extremely unpleasant to watch. And yes, she does make that noise naturally and will do so whenever she wants something she's restrained from getting. Training her in public did have it's challenges.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAf3FWVP6LE


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Two more vids, i think the first is basically a **** up tbh:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZNyTziDBJE

This one is a bit better:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mvxFUGhFjU

Both sessions helped me formulate a plan to go forward.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Nicole Stark said:


> Ayuh, I am more than well acquainted with that. Initially I put some videos in my response of her early days, but I remembered that they were marked private for a reason. People who have been there and done that, will understand why. It's a process and sometimes not always pretty. So yeah Matt, I do understand. Sometimes you gotta choose the hill you are going to die on.
> 
> I'll add this though, it was taken for an entirely different reason and with someone inexperienced working dogs. But the reason I am adding it is because it does show that eventually she got to the point where things were different than they once were, which for many was extremely unpleasant to watch. And yes, she does make that noise naturally and will do so whenever she wants something she's restrained from getting. Training her in public did have it's challenges.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAf3FWVP6LE



You should be soundly thrashed for working the dog so close to that sweet ride. :lol: :wink:


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> You should be soundly thrashed for working the dog so close to that sweet ride. :lol: :wink:


Ha ha yeah Bob for sure. I mentioned this before but I don't know if you remember it. One day I was doing some training in the garage with my mastiff. I turned my back on her for a second only to hear her land on the roof of that car. That was one of those moments where it seems like a hundred thoughts run through your mind in a span of a second or two. I slowly turned around and told her to stay. Then I picked her up off the hood so she wouldn't do any damage trying to get down. Talk about a heart pounder!

The dutchs version of that? Jumping on my back when I went to pick something up. Now, she could have just as easily bounced off me or jumped off, but no what does she do? She slides forward toward my head only to somehow tangle up in my hair and then starts pulling on it. My hair is a lot longer now and I can't even begin to imagine how something like that might go if she ever tried that again.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I do recall that. :-D

If either of my GSDs jumped on my back now, I'd go down like a wet bag of dog crap. !!SPLAT!! :-o

8-[ and I don't have enough hair for them to grab hold of. 8-[


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Yikes, I see I said roof. Obviously, that is not an accurate statement. I meant the hood.


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