# Does any sport really test a "good" dog



## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

Here's the deal
My buddy got a new police dog
I admit to not being nearly as knowledgeable as most one here
but this is everything I can imagine in a dog
he is so full hes gagging on anyhting near the mouth (salted 3 times before 2 cause he swallow shit), his drive is INSANE, he is fearless, attacked crazy first time ever in a muzzle, environmentally sound and yet great with people

that said I went to a local dogsport competition (small not official ring or sch or anything) a week ago and watched the dogs and all I could think was how horrible his dog would do in that venue
Then I watched a schIII dog straight from Germany work and all I saw was prey no fight whatsoever

this started me thinking about sports and breed tests and how much fun they can be for us humans
but I am not sure my ideal dog would excel in "sport"


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Mike Lauer said:


> Here's the deal
> My buddy got a new police dog
> I admit to not being nearly as knowledgeable as most one here
> but this is everything I can imagine in a dog
> ...


Mike,

Your "ideal dog" is only ideal to you, which is how it should be, given your needs, personality etc.

My Dobermann with lots of prey drive and bidability and handler sensitivity is the "ideal dog" for me

If the SchH III GSD only showed prey drive and no fight drive that might be because that is what the situation called for. Why display fight drive when all you're doing is the same old Schutzhund routine.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Your ideal dog could do both. Why do you think not?


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Not to start this feud again but, you can't compare police dogs to finished sport dogs. Each venue has different requirements. Each handler has different requirements. Decide what you want, or like, then go with it.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

I am sure with the right training the police dog you described would do well in some type of sport work.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I have no idea what the **** you just said. Salted ?? gagging on anything near the mouth ??

You are killing me.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

I agree with you Mike. No limitations on the right dog. Why should there be?


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Mike Lauer said:


> Here's the deal
> My buddy got a new police dog
> I admit to not being nearly as knowledgeable as most one here
> this started me thinking about sports and breed tests and how much fun they can be for us humans
> but I am not sure my ideal dog would excel in "sport"


Yet I see you are a dog breeder wow


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## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

Mike Lauer said:


> Here's the deal
> My buddy got a new police dog
> I admit to not being nearly as knowledgeable as most one here
> but this is everything I can imagine in a dog
> ...


knpv


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

As I learned a bit about dogs I was surprised at the sports. I thought there would be more practical competitions. I still would like to see something that incorporates bite work but different scenarios. Do any sports/ competitions have more than one attacker? Do any make you target one attacker out of a few? Stuff like that. Do any competitions incorporate real tracking of some sort with different endings such as a bite or no bite? Or tracking two different people? 
I can go on but I think you get it. 
I don’t know much at all about KNVP or ring but I don’t think they do this kind of stuff. 
Is there anything out there?


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Chris McDonald said:


> As I learned a bit about dogs I was surprised at the sports. I thought there would be more practical competitions. I still would like to see something that incorporates bite work but different scenarios. Do any sports/ competitions have more than one attacker? Do any make you target one attacker out of a few? Stuff like that. Do any competitions incorporate real tracking of some sort with different endings such as a bite or no bite? Or tracking two different people?
> I can go on but I think you get it.
> I don’t know much at all about KNVP or ring but I don’t think they do this kind of stuff.
> Is there anything out there?


 
Yes, there are sports that incorporate elements of everything you asked.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Kyle Sprag said:


> Yes, there are sports that incorporate elements of everything you asked.


Can you help me out here?


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

"As I learned a bit about dogs I was surprised at the sports. I thought there would be more practical competitions. I still would like to see something that incorporates bite work but different scenarios. Do any sports/ competitions have more than one attacker? Do any make you target one attacker out of a few? Stuff like that. Do any competitions incorporate real tracking of some sort with different endings such as a bite or no bite? Or tracking two different people? 
I can go on but I think you get it. 
I don’t know much at all about KNVP or ring but I don’t think they do this kind of stuff. 
Is there anything out there?"



PSA and Mondo do a lot of these things FR and MR have search and excort where the dog need to use its senses to find the guy.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

There are so many different PSD's out there for me it's hard to generalize them . From total crappers to great . IMO , the good ones could do any sport . 

We just had 5 of our guys win the USPCA National Team Championship a couple of days ago . Yes it's a Police dog certification but really all it is is venue where for just at the Regional Certification its showing a minimal level of control in , OB , suspect search , article search , agility and Criminal Apprehension (Straight Attack with a call off and search , False Start where suspect runs but dog must stay put , Recall off a running suspect no bite , Bite under gunfire with a call off search during which suspect pushes officer during search and PSD protects handler and must be call off into a finish next to the handler ) . 

When it gets to the National level it's purely a competition where performance is based on correctness of work , sharp OB , quality of bite , control etc. It's alot like the sports but not as demanding as some . 

4 of the 5 dogs are great proven (over and over again street dogs) the 5th is great at scent work on the street and borderline on it's criminal apprehension . 

We've won this event numerous time and it draws 100-150 K9 teams from around the country . My first K9 was on the 2000 National Champ team and I'd put him up against any tough street dog out there past and present . He was feared on the street and loved by the street cops for what he could do . 

A good strong PSD can do anything for some it may be an easy transition for others very tough . I know it wasn't easy for me and my partners but all the hard work paid off and didn't hurt our street work in the least . If it ever did I would never have competed . Competition doesn't hold a candle to the real thing .

As for really testing a dog I think most sports along with PSD certs are more a "test" on the handlers ability to train and control their dogs . Some put more presure on dogs then others but not for me to say they TRUELY TEST a dog . Training(pattern training and conditioning a dog for the specific "stressors" they will see in the "test") can often over come alot of dogs weakness in sports .


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

PSA and Mondo do a lot of these things FR and MR have search and excort where the dog need to use its senses to find the guy.[/quote]

Didn’t know, thanks. These events ever come to good old NJ? Im gona have to find a few one of these days


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Jim Nash said:


> There are so many different PSD's out there for me it's hard to generalize them . From total crappers to great . IMO , the good ones could do any sport .
> 
> We just had 5 of our guys win the USPCA National Team Championship a couple of days ago . Yes it's a Police dog certification but really all it is is venue where for just at the Regional Certification its showing a minimal level of control in , OB , suspect search , article search , agility and Criminal Apprehension (Straight Attack with a call off and search , False Start where suspect runs but dog must stay put , Recall off a running suspect no bite , Bite under gunfire with a call off search during which suspect pushes officer during search and PSD protects handler and must be call off into a finish next to the handler ) .
> 
> ...


St Paul rocks


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Put me on the list that believes a good dog can do just about anything.
NOW! The gig is deciding what is a good dog.....again#-o:roll:
Every pup in a litter can be "pick of the litter" for someone because we seldom want the same things. The over the top prey dog is one person's pick as is the steady, easy going but strong pup for another. 
They all have their purpose and some can serve in more then one area.
Course every pup in a litter can be a shitter also.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I think that if you know the sport well enough, and you know how the dog was trained (really hard here in the states) you will be able to see the difference in the dogs.

It is not about pressure, for the most part it is not about training, the one that you want to breed to can show itself. It is a matter of reading the dog.

A lot of new people want to see the dogs put under a lot of pressure, but after you know the sport well enough, any sport, you start seeing the dogs for what they are. 

Probably one of the biggest pain in the asses in the last 10 to 15 years for me has been the advancement of training regarding shaping a behavior. 

I bitch about it, but that is mostly self frustration at being faked out a couple of times, maybe more. This is where I still lack a lot of times in reading a dog.

For me, I look at a dog to see if I think it would produce well. That in itself is subjective, as I prefer a stud to be over the top. 

For others, they want a dog that will take them to the top of the ________ sport world. 

The other emphasis that changed was that when I was a kid, you could go and see what the dog was. We didn't know about shaping and didn't have positive methods. The dogs were trained with compulsion, and we all pretty much trained the same way. Now it is completely different, and there are many different ways to train. The emphasis has become on how the dog was trained. 

The breeders have always had a part in this. There wasn't a lot of difference in what they were wanting, the difference most of the time was in how much money they had to bring over the dogs that were top producers.

Now, you have to look even more carefully in my opinion, as we have much better terminology, the difference is what we think "extreme" is. I think that breeders here need to step it up a bit in small aspects, like making stronger dogs, but I also know that doing so hampers things, as they are really likely to get the puppy back, and usually with some really bad habits for them to deal with.... or worse.

One day I would love to make a video showing what different people think is extreme, and examples, and of all the different things we look for in a dog, with the examples. Kinda like a "lets get on the same page video"

It would be fun. 

So, in conclusion, I think that with enough experience, and a little research, you can figure out what it is that makes the dog good to you, and then go from there. I think that right this moment I am going to stop before I pass out from exhaustion.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> The other emphasis that changed was that when I was a kid, you could go and see what the dog was. We didn't know about shaping and didn't have positive methods. The dogs were trained with compulsion, and we all pretty much trained the same way. Now it is completely different, and there are many different ways to train. The emphasis has become on how the dog was trained.
> 
> The breeders have always had a part in this. There wasn't a lot of difference in what they were wanting, the difference most of the time was in how much money they had to bring over the dogs that were top producers.


I agree, the more positive, easy training methods have let alot of shitters take their place at the top of all sports. To me this is the charm of KNPV. The dogs are trained under more compulsion than IPO or Ring dogs are, and as they are ment to be training police dogs, the decoy is the motivation and reward. The same cannot be said for the majority of other sports. 
So when you add a difficult, demanding sport like KNPV, and add to that hard tough training, you find the breeders in the KNPV breeding a dog with the character to take what is dished out, and they are prepared to put up with the baggage you get from these types of dogs like handler agression, hard to control, stubborn dogs.


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Jim,
Did you ever see a dog compete by the name of Rocco?I think it was before 2000,just curious.
He worked for The West Covina police dept.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Jack , 

No USPCA is not big in California . They had a Region there but I don't think it's active at this moment . There are alot of Police K9 certifiying organizations in the country . USPCA , NAPWDA , and at least 4 others that I can't remember their titles at the moment .

Out in Cali I think there is a WPCA or something like that and I think there is a competition aspect to their certifications also like the USPCA . Many of the other Police K9 organizations' certs are pass/fail and some hate the thought of competing . 

I can see good and bad with both types of certifications . So I guess it's good for those who like to have a choice . I would however like to see a nationwide uniform Police K9 certification . Right now there is just no standard for PSD's in the United States and that leads to some very poor PSD's working today that shouldn't be .


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Jim,
It really is too bad there is no standard certification for the whole of the US. Imo it would also be a lot easier to deal with lawsuits and insurance if there would be one standard test,but i can imagine different laws in different states are something wich would be very hard to deal with.In smaller countries this is a lot easier i guess.In Holland a certified KNPV dog is ready to work the streets if the new handler can show they work well as a team,basicly the same program.But in real life i dont think a dog will ever be send after a suspect who is a hundred meters away, and out of sight.Most work is close range(on leash).And the debate of the type of test in the US will be never ending i fear.
The dog i mean has competed in a lot of trials in different states but i guess it is a long time ago already(mid nineties)


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## Adi Ibrahimbegovic (Nov 21, 2008)

Jim, did you compete against Stormfront Brawnson? I believe he won those events at that time.



Jim Nash said:


> There are so many different PSD's out there for me it's hard to generalize them . From total crappers to great . IMO , the good ones could do any sport .
> 
> We just had 5 of our guys win the USPCA National Team Championship a couple of days ago . Yes it's a Police dog certification but really all it is is venue where for just at the Regional Certification its showing a minimal level of control in , OB , suspect search , article search , agility and Criminal Apprehension (Straight Attack with a call off and search , False Start where suspect runs but dog must stay put , Recall off a running suspect no bite , Bite under gunfire with a call off search during which suspect pushes officer during search and PSD protects handler and must be call off into a finish next to the handler ) .
> 
> ...


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Jack ,

Actually all our PSD's work under the same lagal standard reguardless of what state . Some departments though have more or less stringent operating policies . This is because our legal standard is alot like the bible . It depends whose reading it and how they interpret it .

The only pain would be the different folks that want control or certain things in the nationwide standard certification . It's long over due IMO .

Adi ,

I've heard of Stormfronts he was quite the stud dog I think , but I'm not sure if he competed in the USPCA. I might know if you know what department and street name he went by . I started in 96 and haven't competed in a few years due to family issue and now my partners getting old .


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## Adi Ibrahimbegovic (Nov 21, 2008)

Here you go about the dog a little bit http://fullforcek9.com/Stormfronts Brawnson.html
and
http://www.eurosportk9.com/brawnson.asp

He was one tough mo fo.



Jim Nash said:


> Jack ,
> 
> Adi ,
> 
> I've heard of Stormfronts he was quite the stud dog I think , but I'm not sure if he competed in the USPCA. I might know if you know what department and street name he went by . I started in 96 and haven't competed in a few years due to family issue and now my partners getting old .


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Ok . He didn't win the championships in the USPCA , I know the champs from 2000 and 2002 . He may have competed though and I didn't know . There's usually over a 100 dogs that show up . It must have been in a smaller organization he won championships in .

The trial(USPCA) is not that demanding in the apprehension work compared to other venues . It's more about control and clean OB in every event . It certainly doesn't test the dog for the street just for the handlers control over the dog for the most part. I'm sure it would bore most here . I've been trying to put a video up of it but can't figure it out .


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## Joseph Rocco (Sep 6, 2009)

PROTECTION SPORT ASSOCATION (PSA) WWW.PSAK9.ORG CHECK IT OUT


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Oh good God, I wondered when this retard shit would pop up.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Theres a reason they call it sport...


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## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

wow, so many angry people on here...LOL

no, im not a dog breeder, i just train at my sig
it seems my point was missed as everyone had to find something insignificant to attack

that's odd, because when i go to events i find most dog people nice mature and friendly

i was just noticing that a real had, high drive dog, wouldn't score well in some sports
I wasn't attacking *insert sport here*


I have heard of Stormfront, my girl is a Stormfront grandkid


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Mike Lauer said:


> i was just noticing that a real had, high drive dog, wouldn't score well in some sports
> I wasn't attacking *insert sport here*


Where'd you notice this? I have noticed that there have been extremely hard dogs, with super drive whom have won worlds. This years FCI World Champion would fall into that category...and the pedigree of that dog, has about 5 dogs that could fall into that category that have placed in the top 10 or higher or at worlds. 

I do not think a Hard, super drive dog is needed to accomplish this. But it has been done many times.


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## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

I would love to see that, maybe I'm just not worldly enough, which i readily admit


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## Gary Garner (Jun 30, 2007)

Why is this in the VIDEO GALLERY section ?:-s


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Mike Lauer said:


> I would love to see that, maybe I'm just not worldly enough, which i readily admit


Here is a American bred dog that foots the bill www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mHj41lfZ_w I expect one day she finds a black lump ware he was sleeping the lump is Simba after he spontaneously combusted.
Oh and my apologies since you had the link on your sig I assumed this was your kennel


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: i was just noticing that a real had, high drive dog, wouldn't score well in some sports
I wasn't attacking *insert sport here*

Say what you want to. That is why this forum does pretty well, people say what they want, and can back their argument up, or they fall to the wayside like the guy with the 20,000 dollar PPD.

I think that a hard high drive dog with the right training can score well here and there. With a really great trainer, can win. There are very few that have the opportunity to train as often as needed for a dog like that to do the high scores, but they are out there.

That is Soda PoP's Uncle, and I think that if I was doing Sch with her, or even really paying attention, you would see very similar results. Her mother just did what she was taught, from what I saw of her. Soda would do better in a sport like Sch.

I am hoping to get that kind of pup, with Buko's idiot drive, and fearlessness.....we will see here in another month and a half.


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## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

> Here is a American bred dog that foots the bill


thats nice, but not fair cause its a mali and eveyrone knows malis are better 

I went to a schuzhund trial today and a guy had a dog (Mark something, i think someone said out of Columbus, young guy, all black sheherd)
that totally eliminated my doubts. Hell he would have even impressed Jeff, and in schutzhund...LOL
damn dog was rippin up grass on the downs and in the blind his hackles were up i was scared for the decoy...fast and serious

like i said im still figuring all this out, dogs and sports
so take it with a grain of salt, im just thinking out loud
good conversations can speed up the evaluation process


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

Mike- I like the sports and have participated in a lot of them with my dogs (PSA,K9-pro sport, French Ring,SDA,NVBK, in its time ASR...) one reason, it is something more I can do with my dog. I am not sure that the "sports" will ever truly put the" pressure on" that a dog may face in the real world while working out on the street, -but I think training and participation in the sports can enhance the dog and handlers reaction to different situations. Of course in sport the handler is only making decisions that might effect his score, and not making the difference in wether he and his dog will go home at the end of the shift- but it can be an opportunity to really learn your dog's body language. Each one of the sports - have their own uniqueness- it depends on your dog, dog's training, and what you want to do. A lot of the sports are heavy on the obedience, and you won't make it to the protection section if you can't pass-other's are heavy in it all...ob, agility, endurance- and a lot of the sports, the decoys are working for the most part in prey and aren't applying the pressure the dog may truly experience out in the street- but again, it is what you want to do with your dog, and it gives the dog the opportunity to bite different decoys in different scenarios and gives you a better idea what you may have to train for.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: 
damn dog was rippin up grass on the downs and in the blind his hackles were up i was scared for the decoy...fast and serious

On his shoulders, or on his butt ??

I break the Sch peoples balls because of what SOMEONE else did to the sport, which isn't really fair, but **** em. There are nice dogs in Sch, and that is a shame, they should be on the ring field. HA HA


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Mike Lauer said:


> I went to a schuzhund trial today and a guy had a dog (Mark something, i think someone said out of Columbus, young guy, all black sheherd)


Was that Mark Saccoccio? I'm not sure what dog he's trialing right now but I talked to him today and he did trial this weekend.


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## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

Yea I see what you're saying Mo



> On his shoulders, or on his butt ??


shoulders



> Was that Mark Saccoccio?


I am new and don't know many people in the sport yet.
a guy that was getting his 3 told me to make sure to watch Mark
I didn't get last name

it was this trial (from usa website)
October 3 & 4, 2009
Capitol Area Schutzhund Club (MI)
Trial: AD,BH, OB1-3 TR1-3 Sch/IP/vpg 1-3 FH 1,2
USA Judge Mike Hamilton

but I can't find the results online anywhere



actually i may have a picture, my wife had her camera


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Gary Garner said:


> Why is this in the VIDEO GALLERY section ?:-s


Once again a European getting all logical on us. The Americans risked like and limb to get to the other side of the pond only to be together again in a chat room.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Gary Garner said:


> Why is this in the VIDEO GALLERY section ?:-s


Is it stealing your thunder Gary ?? :lol:


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## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

yea, you caught me I made a mistake, check with the mods i think u get a cookie 
with me around, there will be plenty of chances to get cookies


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