# territorial aggression



## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

Is territorial aggression very low or fading in today's traditional working breeds. Talking about gsd and malinois (all lines). I know it's not a required trait for service work, which is why I'm curious to find out whether its their naturally in the modern working dog.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Michael.... you do much better when you ask about pedigrees //lol//

but the way you wrote this, it sounds like you feel "territorial aggression" is some kind of genetic trait/temperament that may be on the decline ?? ... and why only for the gsd/mal ??
...or am i reading much more into this ??

anyway, and hopefully without getting into a "definition war" ....
any breed of dog getting aggressive over a "space" is a punk dog in my book, whether it comes from over dominance or fear, and needs work. i didn't know that some gsd/mal lines were born with it, or that some "lines" had it in bigger or smaller doses ??

otoh, controlled aggression to guard a space .... a good thing ... different matter entirely, but obviously should be a trained behavior....or for that matter ANY canine "aggression"


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

rick smith said:


> Michael.... you do much better when you ask about pedigrees //lol//
> 
> but the way you wrote this, it sounds like you feel "territorial aggression" is some kind of genetic trait/temperament that may be on the decline ?? ... and why only for the gsd/mal ??
> ...or am i reading much more into this ??
> ...


really? so a dominant territorial dog is a punk in your book?

how can you "train" a dog to be effectively aggressive, if he does not have an inborn tendency to possess aggression on his own?

I am all for control and training for sure, but I cannot ever imagine owning a dog that I would like that did not have a worakable natural level of both dominance and aggression tendencies...

are you actually implying that certain types of dogs do not have levels of territorial or any other of the forms of aggression, that differ from other dogs?


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

Michael Murphy said:


> Is territorial aggression very low or fading in today's traditional working breeds. Talking about gsd and malinois (all lines). I know it's not a required trait for service work, which is why I'm curious to find out whether its their naturally in the modern working dog.


Yes. And the reason is opinions like ricks


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Isn't every dog going ballistic in its yard behind a fence 'territorially aggressive"? Seems to be plenty in my neighbourhood, my own dogs, at times, included.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

I thought all dogs had that. My GSD fence fights with neighbors dog...some kind of chow mix. Its alot of rank cur type behavior. Growling snarling snapping. Expeect to get bit...yowch. I'm going to put up a second taller fence I think.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

stop reading things i don't say, folks, and explain what you wrote about me Jamie, rather than try and put me in a box with a label on it ... that is not smart

"needs work" means needs CONTROL work, if the natural aggression is there, and i want it built up and in CONTROL i simply train the dog

needs "work" doesn't mean "bad dog" or "weak dog" or crap dog AT ALL. for me it is rather obvious work means TRAINING. what most of us here want to learn more about right ??

....or do you just give a "territorially aggressive dog" a bigger back yard to guard and let him nurture that punk crap ?? //lol// of course not 

but then that would maybe be called something slightly different, like "barrier aggression" ?? //lol// who gives a damn what u call it 
....still punk behavior in a different dosage imo

...without control; the dog is a PUNK...i will stick to that...i kinda like punks...much more fun for me than calm quiet lap dogs

i've seen "territorial goldens" that bite anyone who enters their space. you all like that ? of course not. i've seen gsd's that will do the same, but you LIKE that ?? 
---aggression with no control equals punk. left alone equals problem dog. "worked on" equals trained. 
-- equals controlled aggression. the holy grail in protection. couldn't be more simpler

-- "territorial aggression" means what MICHAEL ? you are the one who brought it up
-- how would you test for this when visiting a breeder ? i'm very curious, so be careful how you explain your testing procedures 

already you are already getting into definitions ](*,)](*,)
so i'll add mine : aggression equals biting. period. anyone differ or can we agree on that at least ?

but territorial aggression that is genetic ?? ... please explain that
dogs of "the old days" had more ?? now they have less ?? because of opinions like MINE ?? get real or get explaining
...and i'm not around many pups so throw out a few explanations of "territorial aggressive" pups please

i would add, aggression has NOTHING to do with a POSSESSIVE dog that likes to "keep things. i LIKE that in a dog

sorry, but can't see how "genetic territorial aggression" is an indicator or prerequisite of the future greatness in a working dog either, and i still say it isn't genetic, nor are there working lines where it would stand out

aggression by ITSELF ... sure, many dogs are born with more or less, but there is a huge amount of different types of aggression

just show me dogs born with territorial aggression or explain it in words

anyway one liners are way too vague ... pissing me off
plus the OP's question is not a valid one ...IMNSHO

many of you put a "pet trainer" label on me and have no idea what that really means except that it must mean i hate dogs who bite. NOTHING could be further from the truth...
-- fact is, for EVERY dog i work with, pet or not, i WANT to get them to BITE .... and keep it in control in the process
--- it's the pet dogs who have been "taught" NOT to bite that ALWAYS have biting problems unless they were born so weak they became fear pissers

consider yourself lucky most of you work with dogs that like to bite out of the box...there is a world of biting dogs out there that do it from being "taught" NOT to bite ](*,)

for Ted : you work with aggression cases, so i assume some must be pets ... please weigh in on what you see....do you train aggressive dogs NOT to bite ? .... would assume the answer is hell no and would assume the key is control
- are some of your cases dogs who came from "territorially aggressive" working lines ?? do you also think this is a genetic temperament that can be tested or determined to be on the decline or on the rise ? ... very curious about your perspective as someone who does a lot of work with aggressive rehabs, etc.


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

leslie cassian said:


> Isn't every dog going ballistic in its yard behind a fence 'territorially aggressive"? Seems to be plenty in my neighbourhood, my own dogs, at times, included.


what would your dog do if i jumped the fence?


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i tend to oversimplify
aggression equals biting

all of the posturing, baring teeth, lip curls, growling, hackling, lunging and charging, barking, etc etc is not aggression until the teeth get involved....especially true if NO other signs get sent  

not a lot of territorial dogs in yards will even bite, but sounds like many would consider it "territorial aggression" and many would think there dog would ... just a perfect example of punk behavior to me //lol//

so how about it Michael ? you disagree with my post too and think it's people like me that are responsible for some type of "downfall" of good working dogs ?? //lol//

i think there are still tons out there, but just want to know how you test for what you are interested in regarding "TA" ??


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

Rick Smith; let me break it down for you my forum buddy 

MY definition of terratorial aggression and how it works. 

Dog born and raised in a home with its human pack, ( we assume single owner, dog has not been moved around from property to property with multiple owners), INTRUDER approaches property, dog barks and growls to warn the person to get f%#ked , person ignores and enters property (challenging the dog) dog in protecting/guarding its territory , attacks intruder.

Its GENETIC , domestic dogs evolved from wolfs. A wolf pack defends its territory, from other wolves and carnivores ( prey animals get eaten). Its a survival mechanism , from ants to humans , territory has always been a key determinant of survival.

when faced with an intruder the territorial animal either fights or surrenders the space. im assuming a strong dominant dog fights, fear aggressive dog backs off.

for a lot of modern dog breeds territorial aggression is only displayed towards the same species ( other dogs) , working bloodlines gsd and malinois, are bred to "fight" humans. when that guy is running at the dog in a suit thats whats being demonstrated. in the fight the dog is trying to dominate its opponent. and hence i assume that dominance bases territorial aggression should apply to humans as well, for working dogs. now some dogs might not be in "fight" drive but "defense" , if so the dog still sees humans as a threat and in my assumption should still display territorial aggression towards humans.

if modern working dogs are dont have this form of aggression anymore im assuming its because its been bred out and also because the modern training techniques are increasingly prey based. nothing wrong with that.

but its very important to note that how the dog is raised plays a big part on this type of behaviour. my key assumption is that the dog is born and raised with one family, it knows its territory very well, and hasnt been handled by multiple handlers or overly socialised.

Rick , you might think a dog that natrually protects the packs territory, whether its the backyard or its masters truck, is a punk. i think a dog that allows a random person to walk into its owners property and walk out with his valuables is a pieace of sh#t


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

ps i wrote that really quickly hope it makes sense , ignore the grammar


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

" i didn't know that some gsd/mal lines were born with it, or that some "lines" had it in bigger or smaller doses ??"

from what i have read it does seem some lines are more inclined to be terratorial. 

in german shepherds the old czech lines i have herd were more terratorial then your modern west german working lines ( i call them sleeve biters) , huge generalisation ofcourse!

in malinois, some nvbk lines seem to give the impression of being more terratorial.

and not sure about the knpv lines, but i have a FEELING that some of the lines known for producing highly dominant, aggressive, flammable dogs would be terratorial as well, if raised as a one owner type of way, and not overly socialised.

i think there would also be a correlation between civil aggression and territorial aggression as well
and to a lesser extent dominance


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

"Michael.... you do much better when you ask about pedigrees //lol//"

yea i actually private messaged some knpv experts about some pedigrees, but only one of them got back to me, thanks Alice B. cant wait for the responses from the others. im assuming their all busy training for the knpv trials  i cant wait to go watch it live one day


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

rick smith said:


> stop reading things i don't say, folks, and explain what you wrote about me Jamie, rather than try and put me in a box with a label on it ... that is not smart
> 
> "needs work" means needs CONTROL work, if the natural aggression is there, and i want it built up and in CONTROL i simply train the dog
> 
> ...


rick what i said is it is harder to find it now because people share your opinion. nothing wrong with that if thats what you want but its not my thing. i think most of the dogs you see it is trained rather than genetic. fence fighting, guarding a food bowl ect. i think are trained most of the time. when it is genetic you cant fix it(if you think it needs to be). you can control it. my opinion why put effort into controlling it when if its really there the dog will do it when you arent there to control it. i control it by having the dog on a leash and ignoring it im not going to waste my time. my dog will not fence fight he will lay in the yard watching you wagging his tail until he decides your close enough for him to try to bite. when we are not in the yard he will walk fine through a crowd of people but he is always trying to make eye contact so he can challenge someone.


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## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

Rick. I do train some dogs to bite. Those dogs are used in sports or personal protection. The majority of my business is working with and rehabbing aggressive pet dogs. This week I worked with about 40 aggressive dogs. Everything from a huge male presa to some small 20 lb mix breed dogs. Many of the dogs are working dogs without a job for example GSD, border collies, boxers..... But I do see dog and human aggression in every breed. Rick you had asked if I teach them not to bite? Yes. Biting is based in several different things. Stress, or fear, or dominance, territorial, predatory...... Anyways. Any of those dogs need to learn to stop using force to solve problems. I first look at why the dog is biting... Then I stop the biting... Then I use operant and classical conditioning to get the dog to like the things that used to trigger a bite. Lowering stress in the dogs life is also Important. Hope that helps. If you want to pick my brain you can send me an email- [email protected]

Ted efthymiadis


-------------------------------


for Ted : you work with aggression cases, so i assume some must be pets ... please weigh in on what you see....do you train aggressive dogs NOT to bite ? .... would assume the answer is hell no and would assume the key is control
- are some of your cases dogs who came from "territorially aggressive" working lines ?? do you also think this is a genetic temperament that can be tested or determined to be on the decline or on the rise ? ... very curious about your perspective as someone who does a lot of work with aggressive rehabs, etc.[/QUOTE]


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Michael Murphy said:


> what would your dog do if i jumped the fence?


Someone did jump our fence hefting himself by means of the lamp post because we had just arrived home and the Fila had just jumped out of the car box. Luckily he came back quickly when we called him to heel. 

Our older GSD is extremely territorial but controllable outside. The younger GSD was not so territorial. The Fila and the Briard were controllable in the garden - they only barked at the fence when I was not around. However, in the house they always rushed to the door when someone came so much so that once they came behind me, caught me off balance all 100 kgs of them together and I landed in one of their dog beds!

I saw a Golden Retriever guard her car as one of our colleagues tried to gain access to her domain. Luckily he got his hand back in time. She was an absolute "no-go" for sport or anything else. 

I don't think that the strength, confidence, etc. of the dog (or its breed) has an influence on its territorial instincts.

Our Landseer was the next he tried although I warned him. He thought if the Landseer knew him he wouldn't bite - he was the one who picked me up and tried to throw me in the air until the Landseer ripped his shirt.

I think we were all a bit nuts in those days but it was more fun than it is today. After the trial, the red wine flowed and we were all a bit sozzled but, as a later trainer said "a good dog trainer can hold his booze". Sorry for the off topic comments.


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## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

Jamie I disagree. I deal with plenty of genetic guarders like mastiffs and Rottie's and I have been able to rehab it. Even my own Malinois was very possessive and loved to guard From a young age. Now a random person can rip a ball out of his mouth and he has zero reaction. I would however agree that the genetic stuff is much more difficult to work with! Peace!


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Michael .... PM sent

hope what you want to find out gets discussed and hope my comments didn't derail it :lol:


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

Ted Efthymiadis said:


> Jamie I disagree. I deal with plenty of genetic guarders like mastiffs and Rottie's and I have been able to rehab it. Even my own Malinois was very possessive and loved to guard From a young age. Now a random person can rip a ball out of his mouth and he has zero reaction. I would however agree that the genetic stuff is much more difficult to work with! Peace!


My opinion is training fails genetics don't. You being a trainer, I can see why our opinions may differ.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Territorial aggression is a pain in the hoop


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Matt Vandart said:


> Territorial aggression is a pain in the hoop


I second that!


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

I want to keep bad guys OFF the property and out of the house. So if the dogs territorial aggression does it or some other drive does it, I say good.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Michael Murphy said:


> Is territorial aggression very low or fading in today's traditional working breeds. Talking about gsd and malinois (all lines). I know it's not a required trait for service work, which is why I'm curious to find out whether its their naturally in the modern working dog.


With regards to working line GSDs, I see it in some West German lines, Belgian lines and in some Dutch lines. I see it as much now, as I ever did in the past, but I am speaking only about the early 80s to present day. My adult male has very serious territorial aggression, he is all West German working lines. My young male pup is Belgian and West German working lines, he shows some territorial aggression (though not as much as the adult male did at the same age).

I am not familiar with other lines nor am I familiar with Belgian Malinois lines, so I am only speaking about the lines I am familiar with.


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## Doug Wright 2 (Jul 24, 2011)

Susan, do you think the difference in territorial aggression between your two dogs has anything to do with pack structure assuming your older dog is the alpha? 

Doug


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Doug Wright 2 said:


> Susan, do you think the difference in territorial aggression between your two dogs has anything to do with pack structure assuming your older dog is the alpha?
> 
> Doug


No.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

I'll chime in here with my opinion and experience with dogs that show a lot of aggression without being provoked. In almost all instances when i test those dogs they fail. I've had several dogs in my kennel that displayed that behavior and all but one has proven to be weaker than most of the more socially stable dogs that don't put on that display. I'm typing this on my phone so I'll keep it short, but some of the strongest dogs I've had in the bitework have been the most social. Dogs like endor, ringo, hecktor, ivo, bronco, ducas, kano, dik, boston, mikki, pajko, arco, are all amoung the best biters that can take the most pressure from the man, and they are all super social. Of all of the aggressive dogs ive ever had, arko was the only one who would bite and handle pressure like the social dogs i just listed.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Michael Murphy said:


> what would your dog do if i jumped the fence?


To be honest, I don't know, and I hope I never have to find out if my dogs will bite for real.

Pretty sure that if you jumped my fence, my dogs would be happy to see you and fall all over themselves to say hello. I have social dogs because that is what I prefer. Doesn't mean they can't act like assholes sometimes. Suspect that the DS foster dog will take a flyby bite, she's a little more nervy. 

I do strongly suspect that if you tried to get into my vehicle with my Malinois he would bite. He gets quietly ugly when strangers approach the car, unless I'm at Tim Horton's, then he's trying to crawl over me to beg timbits from the nice people who work at the drive-thru.

What do you consider territorial aggression? Threat display not enough? It has to be backed up with a bite?


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

leslie cassian said:


> To be honest, I don't know, and I hope I never have to find out if my dogs will bite for real.
> 
> Pretty sure that if you jumped my fence, my dogs would be happy to see you and fall all over themselves to say hello. I have social dogs because that is what I prefer. Doesn't mean they can't act like assholes sometimes. Suspect that the DS foster dog will take a flyby bite, she's a little more nervy.
> 
> ...


Unfortunately I have found out that my adult male is more than happy to bite for realsies. He is the only GSD I have ever had with this level of forward territorial aggression. There's no hair up, no growling, just head up and coming for you. It's not something I ever wanted, or asked for, but he is what he is, and he's deadly serious, it's a huge responsibility and liability. I can control him but my DH cannot. Off my property and in my car, he is completely normal with dogs and people.

All my past GSDs, and also including my young ones I have now, do display typical territorial aggression, (threatening, barking), but not forward aggression (thankfully).


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## Ken Seminatore (Apr 20, 2011)

I thought we were talking about dog aggression about two dogs between a solid 6 ft fence not a wire fence. I have lived here for 43 years, never dog aggression between dogs. Actually, my Mal and neighbor St. Bernard have found to be both pals, never have shown any aggression for over ten years. For a bad guy that comes around my fence , the dog will be very aggressive toward a stranger. .


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Ken Seminatore said:


> I thought we were talking about dog aggression about two dogs between a solid 6 ft fence not a wire fence. I have lived here for 43 years, never dog aggression between dogs. Actually, my Mal and neighbor St. Bernard have found to be both pals, never have shown any aggression for over ten years. For a bad guy that comes around my fence , the dog will be very aggressive toward a stranger. .


Oh then I completely misunderstood, (not the first time  !!), none of my dogs (past or present) are dog aggressive.


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

mike suttle said:


> I'll chime in here with my opinion and experience with dogs that show a lot of aggression without being provoked. In almost all instances when i test those dogs they fail. I've had several dogs in my kennel that displayed that behavior and all but one has proven to be weaker than most of the more socially stable dogs that don't put on that display. I'm typing this on my phone so I'll keep it short, but some of the strongest dogs I've had in the bitework have been the most social. Dogs like endor, ringo, hecktor, ivo, bronco, ducas, kano, dik, boston, mikki, pajko, arco, are all amoung the best biters that can take the most pressure from the man, and they are all super social. Of all of the aggressive dogs ive ever had, arko was the only one who would bite and handle pressure like the social dogs i just listed.


Mike does the way some of these dogs have been raised have a lot to do with it?
i dont have any first hand experience ofcourse but sometimes it feels like a lot of these dogs have such extreme prey drive, that has been built and frustrated into them from such a early age that this is the only drive the dogs work in, no matter how you test them. Their characters seem to be like very strong nerve labradors with extreme prey, and due to all their training/conditioning they no longer see a genuine threat and its all a game. the only thing your really testing is how much punishment their willing to take to keep playing the game. i have always wondered how these dogs would behave if they had been allowed to grow to maturity without training and then be tested (obviously we will never know).
Maybe dogs like Arko take the situation/threat more seiously and still fight because of they are hard dominant dogs.


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

this is not my test, i remember reading it from a well known trainer, cant remember his name. but anyways.

you tie the dog out in a place its never been before and leave it their. a complete stranger walks up to the dog and acts in a dominant behaviour, no equipment, no prey movements, just strong eye contact and posture. i think the way a dog reacts to that test says a lot about its character.

i went to visit a malinois breeder last year to look a 20 month old dog he was selling, he proceeded to bring out the sleeve , turn the lawn mower on and showed me all this work his dog could do, i politely waited untill he was finished, then asked him if he could tie the dog to the tree at the back of his property and leave me alone with the dog. I stood over the dog , looked into his eyes, twitched my nose and curled my upper lips a little bit, absolutely no movement. the dog pulled his ears back, lowered his head and avoided eye contact, i walked away.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Special forces dogs are bred and trained with the intention that handler is present to pull the dog off the suspect and arrest the bad guy or do whatever needs to be done. Home protection dogs are working 100% independent.... you are at work the dog is guarding the house or property. So a dog that comes off the bite fairly easily is not such a bad thing.


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## Meg O'Donovan (Aug 20, 2012)

mike suttle said:


> I'll chime in here with my opinion and experience with dogs that show a lot of aggression without being provoked. In almost all instances when i test those dogs they fail. I've had several dogs in my kennel that displayed that behavior and all but one has proven to be weaker than most of the more socially stable dogs that don't put on that display. I'm typing this on my phone so I'll keep it short, but some of the strongest dogs I've had in the bitework have been the most social. Dogs like endor, ringo, hecktor, ivo, bronco, ducas, kano, dik, boston, mikki, pajko, arco, are all amoung the best biters that can take the most pressure from the man, and they are all super social. Of all of the aggressive dogs ive ever had, arko was the only one who would bite and handle pressure like the social dogs i just listed.


Is it fair to guess that a confident dog doesn't feel the need to put on a show, as it doesn't go around feeling threatened by much? I'm guessing the smart dogs would be watchful, rather than give reactive displays? It would make sense (in the evolutionary order) to save energy for fighting the battles that really need to be fought rather than leaking energy and attention on stuff that wasn't a clear and real threat.

Are most socially stable dogs confident dogs and vice versa?

I find noisy, fence-running dogs irritating. I'd rather they were quiet unless/so I know when there is really a problem/threat. If the dogs were reacting much of the time, I would pay less attention (to dogs "crying wolf"). I work from home, so that influences my expectations.


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

Meg O'Donovan said:


> Is it fair to guess that a confident dog doesn't feel the need to put on a show, as it doesn't go around feeling threatened by much? I'm guessing the smart dogs would be watchful, rather than give reactive displays? It would make sense (in the evolutionary order) to save energy for fighting the battles that really need to be fought rather than leaking energy and attention on stuff that wasn't a clear and real threat.
> 
> Are most socially stable dogs confident dogs and vice versa?
> 
> I find noisy, fence-running dogs irritating. I'd rather they were quiet unless/so I know when there is really a problem/threat. If the dogs were reacting much of the time, I would pay less attention (to dogs "crying wolf"). I work from home, so that influences my expectations.


 
the assumption here is that all dogs concerned are confident dogs, and we're not talking about simply dogs that display aggression, whether or not they do is irrelevant, its about would they actually do something ,bite, if someone intrudes on their territory. its another trait , like prey drive, civil aggression, rank driven (dominance based) aggression, hunt drive


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

I'll say it like this, we usually have around 50 dogs here at any given time. Right now there is only one dog that would make its own decision to bite someone if they came on my property and she could get to them. The other dogs would meet you at the gate with wagging tails looking for a game. Most of the strongest dogs we've ever had would also let a total stranger come and go. Any of them could have easily been trained to bite anyone who comes around but i would never do that.


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

mike do you think this is because they were raised and trained by multiple handlers or overly socialised, or are they just generally social in temperment.

also what do you think makes arko and that bitch different from the other 49 dogs


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Michael Murphy said:


> mike do you think this is because they were raised and trained by multiple handlers or overly socialised, or are they just generally social in temperment.
> 
> also what do you think makes arko and that bitch different from the other 49 dogs


Its because they are more confident and not insecure. Arko was extremely aggressive because of the way he was raised and trained. His full brother was just as strong in the bitework but was also super social. That aggressive female is a little insecure and won't take nearly the pressure that my more social dogs will take.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> Its because they are more confident and not insecure. Arko was extremely aggressive because of the way he was raised and trained. His full brother was just as strong in the bitework but was also super social. That aggressive female is a little insecure and won't take nearly the pressure that my more social dogs will take.


"Please understand that this dog produces offspring that are hard to handle, and are very aggressive."

I understand what you are saying Mike, and agree.

The point I was trying to make was in response to Ricks statement, that certain dogs come with higher inborn levels for aggression than others, if it was only the raising and training of Arko, then statements like this would not be necessary would they? 

Would you agree that aggression is ultimately a heritable trait, that varies among dogs, whatever the form?


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Joby just wondering what would happen if someone walked into your home unannounced and tried to steal things. What woujld the dog do?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Ben Thompson said:


> Joby just wondering what would happen if someone walked into your home unannounced and tried to steal things. What woujld the dog do?


not sure really...

I personally wouldnt recommend trying it though. DOg is social, but does fire up when people come to the door knocking unnannounced, never promoted it really puposefully in any way. Dog is fine once I answer the door and allow people in.

I never work the dog around the house here with other people, but also is the fact that we get very few visitors, and other than letting the dog out to potty, no one else handles the dog here except me.

One thing that influenced that I am sure is the fact that I am ususally not real freindly to people that come knocking, as no one seems to think they are soliciting anything..and since the nieghborhood is all hispanic, and a mobile home community, with lots of people, we often get people that come to our door, when they are looking for someone else. I have even had several people actually just walk in the house, when the door was not locked...dog took immediate interest but is easily controlled. so I suppose my attitude towards unwanted visitors may have influenced the dog, even though I dont really train the dog to be that way on purpose.

I kicked the Mayor off my porch a few months back...2 people came to the door, one hispanic woman with a clip board, I opened the door and pointed at the sign on it, that says no solicitors...and said "no solicitors" thank you....then I heard "Im not a solicitor, Im the Mayor" i said thank you and closed the door...after thinking about it, I went back outside and saw him down the street and apologized and asked what was up...he then told me he was just out meeting and greeting people cause he was up for election and wanted my vote, so I then said "so you were trying to solicit my vote?"....he smiled and said he supposed I was right...

overall I suspect the dog would engage someone entering the house, she is great in the car though, no barking. people can walk around and dog is nice and quiet, even after doing several "carjack" type things...which is fine with me, I dont want the dog acting like a jackass in the car...

this dog I would not call super territorial, she is pretty social...she is a little older now, so fully mature too, sometimes 'cranky" and I have done some things that I am sure have influenced her along the way, even without any real direct training for that.

I imagine if we had tons of visitors and a more open environment here, it would be lessened some.

I do think that if I worked her at the door and in the house in a serious manner with a stranger, it would take very little to turn the dog into a gorilla in the house, she has a good amount of inborn natural aggression.

Not the strongest dog ever, but I wouldnt want to fight her if I was the average person for sure.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Ben....sounds like your house dog is a ppd ... can i assume it will bite anyone who comes into your property or into your house when you aren't there ?
...if so, how did you train it to do that, or was it a case of territorial aggression, or a blend of both ?

no sarcasm intended, just seriously interested in how people train a family ppd for "independent" duty


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

joby whats the pedigree of your dog, if you dont mind me asking?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Michael Murphy said:


> joby whats the pedigree of your dog, if you dont mind me asking?


http://www.bloedlijnen.nl/pdfstamboom.php?ID=20724


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## Edward Weiss (Sep 19, 2011)

FWIW I did have a house break which ended with the perp on the kitchen floor getting his butt and legs chewed and screaming at my wife that he was going to sue us ! She was home alone when he forced our back door. Uta a GSN I bought in Germany was all over him while my VPG3 GSN was barking like crazy bit and released his forearm..Wife told me she pulled Uta off and he ran...Uta was never on a sleeve,suit etc but I do remember her alert and bark if some one approached the house and then settled down...all her get were territoral out of three separate males.Seems to me this is a genetic trait.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

rick smith said:


> Ben....sounds like your house dog is a ppd ... can i assume it will bite anyone who comes into your property or into your house when you aren't there ?
> ...if so, how did you train it to do that, or was it a case of territorial aggression, or a blend of both ?
> 
> no sarcasm intended, just seriously interested in how people train a family ppd for "independent" duty


 He is still in training when he is completely trained I think he will. He is not a world beater but he will get the job done. He is from czech lines I don't know if that is a factor on why he acts the way he does around strangers. I'm a hermit big time. I rarely have people over so he does not know how to act when I do finally have someone over to viist. My dad came to visit a couple of weeks ago and the dog had to stay in the kennel or the back yard or a crate when he was here. I can take him to strip malls and crowded parks but I have to watch him and nobody is allowed to pet him. My protection trainer was not a social person either so the dog rarely met many people. I would say he should wear a muzzle at the vets office. Not trying to sound like a bad ass but for safety sake. I don't want to get sued so I have to take extra precautions. Right now I really focusing on obedience and trying to get him a little more social with people so I put the proteciton training on hold temporarily. I did not have the control I require.


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

Edward Weiss said:


> FWIW I did have a house break which ended with the perp on the kitchen floor getting his butt and legs chewed and screaming at my wife that he was going to sue us ! She was home alone when he forced our back door. Uta a GSN I bought in Germany was all over him while my VPG3 GSN was barking like crazy bit and released his forearm..Wife told me she pulled Uta off and he ran...Uta was never on a sleeve,suit etc but I do remember her alert and bark if some one approached the house and then settled down...all her get were territoral out of three separate males.Seems to me this is a genetic trait.


 
what the hell is a GSN


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

Ben Thompson said:


> He is still in training when he is completely trained I think he will. He is not a world beater but he will get the job done. He is from czech lines I don't know if that is a factor on why he acts the way he does around strangers. I'm a hermit big time. I rarely have people over so he does not know how to act when I do finally have someone over to viist. My dad came to visit a couple of weeks ago and the dog had to stay in the kennel or the back yard or a crate when he was here. I can take him to strip malls and crowded parks but I have to watch him and nobody is allowed to pet him. My protection trainer was not a social person either so the dog rarely met many people. I would say he should wear a muzzle at the vets office. Not trying to sound like a bad ass but for safety sake. I don't want to get sued so I have to take extra precautions. Right now I really focusing on obedience and trying to get him a little more social with people so I put the proteciton training on hold temporarily. I did not have the control I require.


czech lines  my favourite lines, whats his pedigree, does he got some nice ZPS and BZ is there


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> http://www.bloedlijnen.nl/pdfstamboom.php?ID=20724


didnt realise you were that spoilt Joby, got Arko , Rudie and Bono pegge all in this first three lines 
i have herd that if a dogs got Arko or Bono in its pedigree it bites for real ;-)


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> not sure really...
> 
> I personally wouldnt recommend trying it though. DOg is social, but does fire up when people come to the door knocking unnannounced, never promoted it really puposefully in any way. Dog is fine once I answer the door and allow people in.
> 
> ...


 Sound like you have good control over your dog she sounds like a good one.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Michael Murphy said:


> didnt realise you were that spoilt Joby, got Arko , Rudie and Bono pegge all in this first three lines
> i have herd that if a dogs got Arko or Bono in its pedigree it bites for real ;-)


I have no doubts the dog will bite for real. All dogs I have owned for a looong time now, and kept, will bite for real.


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## Edward Weiss (Sep 19, 2011)

Michael Murphy said:


> what the hell is a GSN


Giant Schnauzer... (auf Deutsch Riesenschnauzer)

http://www.working-dog.eu/meisterschaft-details/2385/21.-ISPU-WM-der-Riesenschnauzer


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

^ dont know much about the lines, but they look very nice


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> "Please understand that this dog produces offspring that are hard to handle, and are very aggressive."
> 
> I understand what you are saying Mike, and agree.
> 
> ...


My initial posts here were referring to territorial aggression. My disclaimer about arko offspring refers to the aggression they display in the work. I've had some that were just down right nasty when they were threatened or challenged in a confrontational way. But even those dogs were neutral to passive strangers


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

IMO a territorial dog is a true guard dog without training. The type of dog who would bite someone if they entered your house and nobody was home. Most dogs would not do this IMO (without some sort of training). I had a female who was like this and it's a admirable trait to me. She had no problem doing obedience around a Schutzhund group and was very neutral in new locations but a dog who would bite if provoked and never looked for attention from strangers. However at the house she had to be put away!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> My initial posts here were referring to territorial aggression. My disclaimer about arko offspring refers to the aggression they display in the work. I've had some that were just down right nasty when they were threatened or challenged in a confrontational way. But even those dogs were neutral to passive strangers



thanks Mike.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Timothy Stacy said:


> IMO a territorial dog is a true guard dog without training. The type of dog who would bite someone if they entered your house and nobody was home. Most dogs would not do this IMO (without some sort of training). I had a female who was like this and it's a admirable trait to me. She had no problem doing obedience around a Schutzhund group and was very neutral in new locations but a dog who would bite if provoked and never looked for attention from strangers. However at the house she had to be put away!


My GSDs and first bouvier were like this but as long as I let you in and out, they were fine--assuming you didn't do something stupid towards any of us. Also, kids were never suspect with them. When someone describes a dog as territorial, this is what I think of. Because of the dogs I've had, I thought this was pretty much a given--but maybe not. 

T


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

mike suttle said:


> My initial posts here were referring to territorial aggression. My disclaimer about arko offspring refers to the aggression they display in the work. I've had some that were just down right nasty when they were threatened or challenged in a confrontational way. But even those dogs were neutral to passive strangers


i wouldnt mind some frozen semen from this arko


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

In our Swiss National Working Trials we used to have a guarding discipline which "more or less" is now found in Mondio.

The dogs were placed in a "down" position in front of any reasonably sized object. The judge would walk up to within about 3 yards of the dog, circle it, come nearer and afterwards try to remove lthe object.

My Landseer was a gem in this respect - he would lay his head down and appear to be asleep until the judge appeared and then he "woke up". 

The Briard also got full marks for this discipline but I reckon with more threat "in real life" he wouldn't have stood the pace as his colleague did.

Unfortunately, this discipline was eliminated a good few years back, partly as some idiots were placing their dogs with their wife's handbags on Sunday near to the church and the injuries that resulted after training were causing a problem at work!! We had some courageous folk (then) who really wanted to test the dog.

It really is a pity that such discipines disappear. 

We also had a discipline in the Swiss National Trials where the owner and dog walked through an area, (forest), and was confronted by a man with a raised stick aimed at the handler. Here, the Landseer, grabbed the thick branch that the judge held out just in time! Full points.

It's a shame that these disciplines have disappeared., partly as handlers became unruly and partly and most unfortunately, to match them up to IPO.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Gillian Schuler said:


> In our Swiss National Working Trials we used to have a guarding discipline which "more or less" is now found in Mondio.
> 
> The dogs were placed in a "down" position in front of any reasonably sized object. The judge would walk up to within about 3 yards of the dog, circle it, come nearer and afterwards try to remove lthe object.
> 
> ...


SCH had the WH title, that is gone the way of the Dodo now....


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

doesnt knpv and nvbk have object guarding,
and is it true that the nvbk lines are very civl compared to the other lines, i keep hearing this


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> SCH had the WH title, that is gone the way of the Dodo now....


Tell me what the WH title was?


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Michael Murphy said:


> doesnt knpv and nvbk have object guarding,
> and is it true that the nvbk lines are very civl compared to the other lines, i keep hearing this


I'd like someone to compare the Swiss National Trial guarding to the knpv etc. Maybe we can compare?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I'd like someone to compare the Swiss National Trial guarding to the knpv etc. Maybe we can compare?


any video of it?


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

No, no videos then but ask questions about it - I'm sure I can "fill you in"


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## Jessica Kromer (Nov 12, 2009)

Gillian- here is a break down of the test:

Procedure: 
Heeling on lead - 15 pts 
Heeling free - 15 pts 
Sit out of motion - 10 pts 
Down with recall - 10 pts 

Retrieving an article - 15 pts (handler leaves his/her dog in the sit, and walks away for 30 paces. There the handler lays down a small article or dumbbell and returns to the dog. Upon a single command, the dog must retrieve the article fast and happily) 

Down under distractions - 10 pts (The procedure for this exercise is the same as in the VPG1. Articles up to the size of a briefcase may be left with the dog. The dog on the "Down" will be picked up by the handler after the OTHER dog on the field has completed the retrieve). 

Devotion to the handler - 10 pts (The dog is put on leash by the handler, then handed over to another person. The handler walks toward a group of people who are standing about 80 paces away. the dog is allowed to watch the departure of the handler for approximately 30 pages. Then a sight barrier is put in front of the dog so that the dog can no longer see the handler. When the handler arrives at the group, he walks into the center of the group and stops. When he/she is in the group, the handler is not allowed to get the dog's attention. then the person that is holding the dog takes off the dog's leash. The behavior of the dog, especially the use of the nose, is to be observed during this exercise. When the dog has found his handler, he is to be praised.) 

Guarding of Possessions - 15 points (The handler downs his dog in an open area. The dog is fastened securely to a chain that will not stretch. The dog may sit, lie down, stand. With the command "Watch" the handler lays a larger object in front of the dog. Then the handler walks 20 paces away and stands still while always remaining in the dog's sight. Nothing can be used which can be taken in the dog's mouth. The judge or somebody else walks past the dog at a distance of about 10 paces, and walks back again. Meanwhile the dog must remain quietly by the object and not show aggression. Now an attempt will be made to take the object away. If the dog reacts in a threatening posture/attitude, the exercise is successfully completed. By threatening posture/attitude is meant growling/barking/lunging (trying to grip). There should be no agitation of the dog). 

Testing the dog for watchfulness (3 parts) - 100 points 

Part A - 30 points The exercise takes place in a specially prepared courtyard (possibly with a kennel). This fenced in area must be at least 7x7 meters. You can also use a clubhouse. The dog is placed free in the area. The dog must watch every approach (by the helper) toward the fence with attentiveness. The dog must emphasize attentiveness by barking. 

Part B - 40 points As soon as the dog has made himself noticeable, the Helper runs away. The handler then enters the fenced area and holds the dog firmly. The helper continues to flee and takes cover in a secure hiding place. As soon as the helper has taken cover, the dog is released. The dog must immediately approach the helper's hiding place (the helper may be in or out of the dog's sight) and perform a bark and hold. 

Part C - 30 points Watchfulness on the running wire: The dog will be fastened securely on a chain, which is located on a running wire or cable that is about 15 meters long. The dog must show aggression when confronted by a helper coming front he side and agitating the dog. When the dog shows aggression, the helper will flee out of sight. Now the dog is confronted by a second helper who comes front he opposite direction along the other end of the running wire, and likewise agitates the dog. Again the dog must be alert and show aggression. After the second tester has gone out of sight of the dog, the exercise is completed and the dog is picked up 

I didn't type that up... ;-)


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

The main difference is - our dogs were not fastened down in the object guarding.


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## Jessica Kromer (Nov 12, 2009)

The WH was not so much meant as a title, but a test, like the BH. It was kind of a "pre" title deal and the dog could test at 15 months.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

a test ? 
- i don't understand how it could be considered a test
- if commands are given that a dog must respond to, which assumes prior training is required, and points are assigned, it seems more like a trial to me. a test would seem to be more of a pass/fail evaluation

but interesting, no matter what you call it, since i guess any trial could always be considered a test of some sort


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Jessica Kromer said:


> The WH was not so much meant as a title, but a test, like the BH. It was kind of a "pre" title deal and the dog could test at 15 months.


my bad...but moot point now...since it is gone..


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

rick smith said:


> a test ?
> - i don't understand how it could be considered a test
> - if commands are given that a dog must respond to, which assumes prior training is required, and points are assigned, it seems more like a trial to me. a test would seem to be more of a pass/fail evaluation
> 
> but interesting, no matter what you call it, since i guess any trial could always be considered a test of some sort


I think whe WH was a pass fail


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## Kevin Cyr (Dec 28, 2012)

Michael Murphy said:


> doesnt knpv and nvbk have object guarding,
> and is it true that the nvbk lines are very civl compared to the other lines, i keep hearing this


 
what is it with you and civil dogs? some of your comments and posts are just idiotic


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## jim kirkendall (Jan 31, 2009)

I was a telephone repairman for bell telephone,for 31 years. Trust me, territorial dogs are not in decline! My doberman is very territorial. I wouldn't want it any other way. She is no punk!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

jim kirkendall said:


> i was a telephone repairman for bell telephone,for 31 years. Trust me, territorial dogs are not in decline! My doberman is very territorial. I wouldn't want it any other way. She is no punk!


any vids?


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## jim kirkendall (Jan 31, 2009)

no, but I guess i could make one of my dog.Give me something to do.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

jim kirkendall said:


> no, but I guess i could make one of my dog.Give me something to do.


lol you sure? not a good question to ask ME...

lets be general here....something that will show the dog is not a punk  I love good dobies..


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

Kevin Cyr said:


> what is it with you and civil dogs? some of your comments and posts are just idiotic


before i respond kevin to your statement, do you mind giving me a little bit of backround information on yourself so i understand were your coming from?

what dog breeds are you into?
what bloodlines?
what type of dog work are you interested in? ( since this is a working dog forum, a forum where Mike Suttle,( breeder and trainer for both the police and US military, whos opinion is so well respected that news reporters decide to interview him) is humble and generous enough to come on and answer the question, to satisfy the curiosity of a nobody, without feeling the need to call my questions idiotic even though he probably thinks some of them are. But you do.
but then again you might breed and train rottweilers for the austrian military, for all i know.

So who are you Kevin?


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Glad this thread got back on topic. i thought it had grown a new leg 

* i can see why people would jump on ME for stating "territorial aggression" is punk behavior that "needs work" //lol//

but if Mike, who i assume most people give a lot of credibility for breeding and training hi calibre (aggressive) working dogs, says this :

"I'll chime in here with my opinion and experience with dogs that show a lot of aggression without being provoked. In almost all instances when i test those dogs they fail. I've had several dogs in my kennel that displayed that behavior and all but one has proven to be weaker than most of the more socially stable dogs that don't put on that display."

so, was anyone surprised when he wrote that ? ... or maybe i read it wrong, and he was wording it very carefully to NOT call it "territorial aggression" and was talking about something entirely different ? maybe, but i doubt it, and i did say aggression is biting, not "fence fighting posturing" 

why does it seem that no one changed their opinions and keep relating how it is either admirable or a desirable trait in a working dog ?? 
...or makes a joke about it 

to me it's another great example that if you have an opinion it aint gonna change no matter who writes what ....


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Michael Murphy said:


> before i respond kevin to your statement, do you mind giving me a little bit of backround information on yourself so i understand were your coming from?
> 
> what dog breeds are you into?
> what bloodlines?
> ...


I can vouch for Kevin..

all good dogs are civil..that is starting point.. (my opinion)..so lets assume good dogs are civil....now where do we go?


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

All good dogs are civil.... Okayyyyyy. 

Does this mean a less civil dog is not a good dog?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Alice Bezemer said:


> All good dogs are civil.... Okayyyyyy.
> 
> Does this mean a less civil dog is not a good dog?


Alice...

First we have to hash out what civil means to us.. LOL

let me rephrase...

all good dogs that will be doing the type of work that Micheal Murphy talks about, will bite someone for real, which is what I mean by civil...

I have to assume that your KNPV dog would be capable of biting for real (civilly) , otherwise we are not on the same page here at all.

my point was yes, dogs will bite people...so what? that is to be expected with certain dogs with training. that is bottom line, for dogs that are expected to do that type of thing, and there is much more to consider than just being civil...


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

I've noticed alot of Fila's and Caucasion Shepherds don't always like doing the bite work. But they do it and you would have to be absolutely insane to want to enter a property with one of them guarding it.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Ben Thompson said:


> I've noticed alot of Fila's and Caucasion Shepherds don't always like doing the bite work. But they do it and you would have to be absolutely insane to want to enter a property with one of them guarding it.


I have worked both..

have entered propeties guarded by both.

insane is a relative word.

bitesuit yes....


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i have NO real world experience with any large guardian breeds who do the work they were bred for. but aren't they bred in rural areas to "guard" herd stock, rather than be aggressive and bite unprovoked ? meaning they primarily rely on vigilance to DETER threats and will only engage a threat if another animal ignores the threat and moves aggressively towards whatever it is protecting ... and they do this independently without needing a handler to direct them ?

if that is true i could see a few reasons why they wouldn't excel at PSD/MWD jobs or bitesports


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

btw, are pyrenees still a working guardian breed anywhere ?

surprisingly enuff they were popular in Japan a few years ago due to a famous "TV vet" show, and i met a few who were somewhat aggressive....mostly handling sensitivities and extreme food guarders...never gripped but definitely snapped on flesh :-(
...i assumed that was from owners who decided too late in life their dog needed grooming and considered themselves waiters and waitresses fro Thor. all the owners i met got them because they were "big" and stood out in a crowd


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

all dual purpose dogs must be civil (bite for real), the civil in front of the aggression seperates it from other forms of aggression such as dog agression (well in my books anyways)

the reason i talk about civil aggression more then other traits that make a good dog is because for me personally i like starting with a puppy. i can test for prey drive, hunt drive , i can test for environmental nerve, and nerves in general ( to a certain extent anyways), but you cant test civil aggression in a puppy at all, so i look at the dogs pedigree and lines to narrow it down as much as possible and hope when the dog matures his going to be more then just a sleeve dog.

alot of people on this forum have seperated sports dogs and dogs more suitable for police and military, in all working dog breeds.

what seperates the sport dogs and and real world dogs, harder nerves, and a willingness to actually engage a person when challenged (civil aggression) 

Alice , why do you like van leeuwen lines so much? because they can do knpv and also go on to make good police dogs, they need to have civil aggression in them to do this. or is it extremely frustrated prey drive?


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQpu9UoXCeM

you like these dogs dont you kevin;-)


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

The "territorial aggresion" you speak of is linked to defencedrive I suppose, the drive/ability to defend itself his pack and the territory. A certain ability act aggresive in a face of threath is a trait that is tested and wanted by many, maybe more by some. However very much of aggresion coupled with a general dislike/suspicion for people is probably not what many needs or want in most workingdog venues, most don´t want guardogs or dogs that must be keept away from strangers visiting the house.

The term "civil" doesn´t need to be linked to aggresion/defence I suppose, dogs bite for different reason, like a pitbull or high prey/fghtingdrive dog that bites just becasue they enjoy it or has been trained to it, like most policedogs. So territorial aggresion and "civil" biting for real is not the same thing I would guess.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Michael, not sure how others feel, but to me, civil is a type of temperament, as in the exact opposite of biddable ... NOT directly relating to biting, per se. i'm sure many people may think the words are synonyms
... "social" would be somewhere in between

in my stupid opinion, and they are often just as wrong as they are stupid, all temperament types can be trained in aggression (to B>I>T>E>) to engage humans, if the dog is worth a damn. engage doesn't man shake their hand. one of our base mwd's is extremely biddable

my .02


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

ok... i lied  he's not biddable ... but a very sociable K9


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Here in Australia the term "Prey Drive" has been captured by the so called knowegable people to mean a dog that only bites out of play and is only interested in the booty. So a real dog must have then defensive drive, cos that makes them bite for real. And as such only a dog with "Active Aggression" (a dog who tries to kill everyone who comes anywhere near them) is a dog who can do the deed. 
So if someone new comes along in this country and wants a dog for PP or security work, then he is brainwashed by these experts that he musn't go for a prey dog who is social, cos these dogs wont protect them. This is due to these experts never owning or training a high calibur dog, and they dont have an understanding that true prey drive is a combat drive. And generally these experts come from Rotti or GSD backgrounds, for whats that worth. Slowley as the Dutchie and Mali becomes more pevalent here people will understand that the experts talked alot of shit.
Hence these posts by Michael.


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

I must admit a lot of what Chris says it's true. But I hope that the current gsd breeders dont get their hands on these dogs


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Michael, would you please link me (or any mod) to your intro/bio? 

If you didn't do one, our bad, because you should have been reminded long ago. 




Here's where it goes (required):

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f20/

Thank you!


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> Alice...
> 
> First we have to hash out what civil means to us.. LOL
> 
> ...


 See! I read something totally different in the whole civil thing as in "the dog is not civil aka an asshole to its surroundings" 

A dog that does streetwork would be called anything but civil in my book.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Michael Murphy said:


> all dual purpose dogs must be civil (bite for real), the civil in front of the aggression seperates it from other forms of aggression such as dog agression (well in my books anyways)
> 
> the reason i talk about civil aggression more then other traits that make a good dog is because for me personally i like starting with a puppy. i can test for prey drive, hunt drive , i can test for environmental nerve, and nerves in general ( to a certain extent anyways), but you cant test civil aggression in a puppy at all, so i look at the dogs pedigree and lines to narrow it down as much as possible and hope when the dog matures his going to be more then just a sleeve dog.
> 
> ...


The van Leeuwen dogs represent a complete package for me. I like high drive dogs who are not afraid to fight back. I have never cared and will never care if a dog is social to the outside world. The dog needs to work for me, do as its taught and follow the lines I set for it. It does not have to be man's best friend. It is trained to perform a task and any skilled handler will be able to deal with the dog after I sold it to them. If they can not handle the dog, then in my eyes, they have no place being a handler to begin with. To date, not one dog has been returned to me yet and trust me, I have owned some real mean bastards :lol: I guess you could call it civil agression to an extent. I'm not sure it is the correct word for it tho. I would call it balls... They do not care whether you put a decoy in front of them on the field, or a twit in the middle of downtown New York... they will simply do the job due to lack of fear, stress or unknown circumstances. I am sure I am explaining this wrong (blame lack of sleep since last week thursday) Maybe someone else can explain it better then I can at the moment. I pick van Leeuwen dogs because of their highly flammable nature, add to that that the dogs possess a lot of self confidence in whatever you do with them, and you have a perfect working dog... Well for me its a perfect dog, in the wrong hands I could see all kinds of trouble but I guess that goes for most dogs out there.


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## Kevin Cyr (Dec 28, 2012)

Michael Murphy said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQpu9UoXCeM
> 
> you like these dogs dont you kevin;-)


 
still idiotic posts I see...


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> I have worked both..
> 
> have entered propeties guarded by both.
> 
> ...


 I would not want to enter a property in plain clothes no bitesuit. They do not like outsiders.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Alice Bezemer said:


> The van Leeuwen dogs represent a complete package for me. I like high drive dogs who are not afraid to fight back. I have never cared and will never care if a dog is social to the outside world. The dog needs to work for me, do as its taught and follow the lines I set for it. It does not have to be man's best friend. It is trained to perform a task and any skilled handler will be able to deal with the dog after I sold it to them. If they can not handle the dog, then in my eyes, they have no place being a handler to begin with. To date, not one dog has been returned to me yet and trust me, I have owned some real mean bastards :lol: I guess you could call it civil agression to an extent. I'm not sure it is the correct word for it tho. I would call it balls... They do not care whether you put a decoy in front of them on the field, or a twit in the middle of downtown New York... they will simply do the job due to lack of fear, stress or unknown circumstances. I am sure I am explaining this wrong (blame lack of sleep since last week thursday) Maybe someone else can explain it better then I can at the moment. I pick van Leeuwen dogs because of their highly flammable nature, add to that that the dogs possess a lot of self confidence in whatever you do with them, and you have a perfect working dog... Well for me its a perfect dog, in the wrong hands I could see all kinds of trouble but I guess that goes for most dogs out there.


That's a good post Alice. I would like to be transported back to the 1990's where I remember GSDs (I didn't know the Malinois / Holländischer Schäfer then) to when civll (i.e. Zivilhunde) were around, trialling or not.
I always remember though our breeder of the GSDs who went to visit the Bavarian Terrorist Unit to see what sort of dogs they wanted to be bred. He spoke to one of the handlers and noticed he had lost a thumb. On asking what had happened - the handler said "it's in his stomach".

One handler I knew, said, it doesn't matter how aggressive / zivil / civil a dog is - if he is under control, all is ok.

I think today's ideal of a canine is something on four legs that sinks into a down when you look at it and loves all and sundry. However such dogs are still canines and could, and have, bitten many a kid or adult when felt threatened. Dear dogs that their owners have assumed they are beyond canine "brutalities" because they are almost human.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Gillian Schuler said:


> That's a good post Alice. I would like to be transported back to the 1990's where I remember GSDs (I didn't know the Malinois / Holländischer Schäfer then) to when civll (i.e. Zivilhunde) were around, trialling or not.
> I always remember though our breeder of the GSDs who went to visit the Bavarian Terrorist Unit to see what sort of dogs they wanted to be bred. He spoke to one of the handlers and noticed he had lost a thumb. On asking what had happened - the handler said "it's in his stomach".
> 
> *One handler I knew, said, it doesn't matter how aggressive / zivil / civil a dog is - if he is under control, all is ok.*
> ...



I agree. Today's dogs have a lot to deal with when it comes to their human owners. I personally feel that dogs are getting to much responsibility heaped on to them by their owners. They want a pet, has to play well with kids, has to be nice to other dogs, has to play well with other dogs, has to be nice to strangers, has to do Protection sports and bite, has to follow commands on the snip of a finger. They want the perfect dog, human in its responses and animal in its protection work. An unrealistic idea at best in my eyes. A dangerous idea in a lot of circumstances... And when the dog fails one of the human standards that was shoved upon it, the dog is blamed. Needs to be put to sleep, labels get slapped on its ass for being nervy, unstable, not to be trusted, dangerous even! People really expect to much at times. But the funny thing is, humans don't get blamed...its the dog that suffers for not living up to "Human" standards...


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

of course many will disagree here 

civil : a dog who is the opposite of biddable. never a face licker when meeting new people; just acknowledges they are "there". tolerates humans but doesn't seek their attention and does not "warm up" when shown any attention or petted. much prefers the company of its primary handler over anyone else. is not interested in meeting new friends. will show it's displeasure if over handled by a stranger. much more prefers a grip with a fight, over a toy or a tug. is not interested in making new friends

a good civil dog : enjoys the opportunity to fight humans when directed and lives for that. loves the resistance when engaged. doesn't care who or what else is going on around them when sent. considers a fight as "meat on the table, now being served" and has a healthy appetite. requires correct training and rarely genetic 

a punk and maybe civil dog : considers any stranger entering their personal space as "meat on the table" and usually engages them aggressively. the amount of space is directly proportional to the degree of "punkness" and makes no difference what the owner is trying to train it for, or if it's being trained at all. often the end result of a dog with civil genetics and poor training

I could be way off, but what Alice said probably applies to a lot of "home ppd's" that the owner somehow feels can be the perfect family dog, yet still be the "bad ass" protection dog, either when "called on" to do so, or left on its own to make its own decisions. But i figure there must be a LOT of people out there making money to turn them out, since the demand seems to me to get higher all the time :-(


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re: "I agree. Today's dogs have a lot to deal with when it comes to their human owners. I personally feel that dogs are getting to much responsibility heaped on to them by their owners. They want a pet, has to play well with kids, has to be nice to other dogs, has to play well with other dogs, has to be nice to strangers, has to do Protection sports and bite, has to follow commands on the snip of a finger. They want the perfect dog, human in its responses and animal in its protection work. An unrealistic idea at best in my eyes. A dangerous idea in a lot of circumstances... And when the dog fails one of the human standards that was shoved upon it, the dog is blamed. Needs to be put to sleep, labels get slapped on its ass for being nervy, unstable, not to be trusted, dangerous even! People really expect to much at times. But the funny thing is, humans don't get blamed...its the dog that suffers for not living up to "Human" standards..."

like in have their cake and eat it too ? 
... and if they don't like how it tastes, dump it because it must have just been a bad recipe, not bad baking


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

rick smith said:


> a good civil dog : enjoys the opportunity to fight humans when directed and lives for that. loves the resistance when engaged. doesn't care who or what else is going on around them when sent. considers a fight as "meat on the table, now being served" and has a healthy appetite. requires correct training and rarely genetic


Rick do you mind clarifying the "rarely genetic" part of that? I read what you wrote to mean this is a quality developed predominantly through training and rarely manifests in a raw form. Is that what you meant?


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Nicole
it was a bit tongue in cheek on "civil", but i was trying to say that to get a "good" civil dog to the level i described usually takes a lot of training rather than just a lot of "genetics" 
- was also just stating a few of my "impressions" on civil besides the simple "it'll bite" definition
- of course all dogs start out with different levels of "genetic" aggression tendencies, but the ones who get the best training (building it up while maintaining control) usually turn out to be the best 
- pet people often see it as a problem that needs to be "fixed" or extinguished
- working dog people see it as potential
- i DO think the pet people are seeing it wrong
- but i also think a lot of working dog people overvalue it

but as it develops more, imo it needs (proper) "work" or it WILL become a problem, even if the dog can still be managed. i just don't think civil dogs do well if it is just "admired" by the owner, and i have seen a few owners who constantly bragged about how civil their dog was and had no intention of ever adding much control :-(
- bottom line : i'm much more of a nurture type than a genetic type 

and as others have said, it is certainly possible for very strong dogs to have little or no "territorial aggression" when they are still green dogs, which make me feels it is over hyped as a quality trait to look for


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## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

rick smith said:


> of course many will disagree here
> 
> civil : a dog who is the opposite of biddable. never a face licker when meeting new people; just acknowledges they are "there". tolerates humans but doesn't seek their attention and does not "warm up" when shown any attention or petted. much prefers the company of its primary handler over anyone else. is not interested in meeting new friends. will show it's displeasure if over handled by a stranger. much more prefers a grip with a fight, over a toy or a tug. is not interested in making new friends
> 
> ...


I'm pretty much a beginner, but all this confuses me. My dog is good with kids, but is a pretty serious dog when someone comes to the door. If someone comes in, I put her down, then call her to us, and she is in full social 'pet me' mode at that time. She will bite on a suit, hidden sleeve, or with a muzzle, so is she 'civil' 'social', or in my opinion both?


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

jim stevens said:


> I'm pretty much a beginner, but all this confuses me. My dog is good with kids, but is a pretty serious dog when someone comes to the door. If someone comes in, I put her down, then call her to us, and she is in full social 'pet me' mode at that time. She will bite on a suit, hidden sleeve, or with a muzzle, so is she 'civil' 'social', or in my opinion both?


Since a civil dog is one like yours, who will bite someone whether or not that person is wearing protective equipment, and a social dog is one who, like yours, is comfortable, maybe even enjoys meeting new people, I would say your dog is civil and social.

My cranky adult male is civil and is not social on my property, but he is neutral on the property when I am here to make him behave. Off the property he is a different dog, very relaxed, even social.

My old Tiekerhook dog (Asko vom Joufne Keyleff / Steffi Tiekerhook), was civil but also VERY social, loved parties, loved meeting new people, a rock.

Cadet, the GSD before him, was also very social, he was not civil, only ever worked with a sleeve. 

My two youngsters are VERY social, and I can tell they will always be social, which in my opinion, is a very good thing!


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Jim...actually i just a few more things i've noticed relating to civil than the "it'll bite" definition and listed them ... and it is only how i see civil; that's why i said many will disagree ... so is this how your dog reacts when it meets new people ? do you see any of these same behaviors that i listed ? 
plus i have no idea what gets serious means either ...

but if it switches to being biddable as you seem to describe i wouldn't consider it a civil dog

of COURSE temperaments are a mixture ... i've NEVER seen a dog that was all "xxxxx", all the time .... just like people

so maybe the whole thread was useless from the start since it will never get a consensus opinion, but it would be totally useless if it just caused more confusion 

but to me it is always interesting to discuss the how/why/when/where of dogs using their teeth for something besides chopping food into smaller pieces


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

rick smith said:


> of course many will disagree here
> 
> civil : a dog who is the opposite of biddable. never a face licker when meeting new people; just acknowledges they are "there". tolerates humans but doesn't seek their attention and does not "warm up" when shown any attention or petted. much prefers the company of its primary handler over anyone else. is not interested in meeting new friends. will show it's displeasure if over handled by a stranger. much more prefers a grip with a fight, over a toy or a tug. is not interested in making new friends
> 
> ...


A civil dog is the opposite of a biddable dog? Not by the definitions of anyone I know.

A civil dog is simply one who will bite someone regardless of whether or not the person is wearing protective clothing.

Biddablility discusses how well the dog works for his handler, his desire to please his handler.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

susan tuck said:


> A civil dog is the opposite of a biddable dog? Not by the definitions of anyone I know.
> 
> A civil dog is simply one who will bite someone regardless of whether or not the person is wearing protective clothing.
> 
> Biddablility discusses how well the dog works for his handler, his desire to please his handler.


That's what I was thinking...completely different things.

That's like saying calm is the opposite of friendly, or something. Unrelated.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

.... which is exactly why i said a lot of people will disagree with how i described civil behaviors 

but if this is your def : "A civil dog is simply one who will bite someone regardless of whether or not the person is wearing protective clothing."
...it is VERY general, as in vague, and makes no allowance for any degree of "civilness" 
- simple example : many breeds will NOT bite without a serious amount of agitation, as in some of the guardian breeds ... are they civil ? the simple def says yes, but i would say in many cases ... no 

first, people rarely and hopefully NEVER test a dog to see if it will bite a person who is not wearing protective clothing, so there is already a built in "assumption" in your def .... duh

second, most any dog will bite a person when and if it decides to or has to. there is a HUGE variance as to when this will happen, but that would mean most any dog is or can be civil ... which imo makes the whole topic moot
example : a dog is being evaluated ... will posture, hackle, bark, snarl, etc but not bite until put in extreme defensive drive; then bites with a very shallow bite, releases and runs ... by the above def it is civil  i differ.
(most will run but many will bite b4 they bail; it all depends on how much you limit their options and whether the bite gets them the result they wanted)

i know what you guys are saying and i've heard it a million times ... i just look at the whole "civil" thing a little deeper, involving different thresholds and other aggressive behaviors ... cause i can, so i can handle it if you consider my def way off base and out in right field somewhere 
... hope it doesn't bother anyone that much .. different strokes as they say

but it always comes into play when i work with any dog who HAS live bites in its history :-(


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Your definition does not change the fact that civility and biddability are not related...

By the way, everyone takes into account the variability. We make vague definitions because we all understand what's involved in that definition.

But civility and biddability are fundamentally unrelated, so there's no "definition," however vague or detailed, that can make sense when you pair them as opposites or synonyms of each other.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

rick smith said:


> .... which is exactly why i said a lot of people will disagree with how i described civil behaviors
> 
> but if this is your def : "A civil dog is simply one who will bite someone regardless of whether or not the person is wearing protective clothing."
> ...it is VERY general, as in vague, and makes no allowance for any degree of "civilness"
> ...


Rick seriously, come on. I know I don't need to remind you this is not a pet board, no one here is talking about dogs who take shallow front teeth nips, or dogs that run around behind someone to nip at their heels or snap at their ass. We are talking about dogs who actually, really and truly, grip. And no, it's not an assumption on my part or anyone else's at to whether or not a dog is civil, it's knowing how to read dogs and talking about dogs who actually have live bites.

Anyway, unless I am way off on my understanding of civil and biddable in normal working/sport dog circles, you can't say a civil dog is not a biddable dog, the two terms have nothing to do with each other.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

susan tuck said:


> rick seriously, come on. I know i don't need to remind you this is not a pet board, no one here is talking about dogs who take shallow front teeth nips, or dogs that run around behind someone to nip at their heels or snap at their ass. We are talking about dogs who actually, really and truly, grip. And no, it's not an assumption on my part or anyone else's at to whether or not a dog is civil, it's knowing how to read dogs and talking about dogs who actually have live bites.
> 
> Anyway, unless i am way off on my understanding of civil and biddable in normal working/sport dog circles, you can't say a civil dog is not a biddable dog, the two terms have nothing to do with each other.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I always have problems with the term "civil dog". 

The term has been translated from "Zivil" but (as far as I know) we don't have "Zivilhunde" here in Europe - we have dogs that do "Zivilbeissen", i.e. dogs that will bite without the sleeve, Mondio suit, etc. Terrorist dogs, certain departments of the Police Force, etc. that have a training far removed from any sport dog or family dog and that have the potential to do so.

It's a serious term obviously, but there are dogs that would bite without being trained to do so. I was bitten by a Dachshund in England when I was 7, after being warned not to stroke the dog. I would call such dogs fearful (especially small dogs who resent someone bending over them).

There are certain breeds that do not require much effort in training to bite - Bernese Mountain Dogs who were used to nip the obstinate cows, most herding breeds who had to guard their flock, etc. etc. However, the temperament of many dogs has declined and although they would always be ready to nip, they often do this out of fear.


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