# Deep Pushing Bites



## AJ Johnson

I think this is a topic most people think is genetic when in reality it is really a trained habit for most. 

My question is for general feedback and technique that other trainers are using to help create that pushing bite that is so necessary in good suit work. 

For those that don't understand what I mean I will explain. Most dogs bite and then tug to win the object. This creates conflict if you want your dog to battle in the fight by pushing in deeper and biting harder to win. 

What techniques is everyone out there using to overcome the typical bite pull win into the bite push bite harder dog that is better for more civil work


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## Debbie Skinner

Don't let let the puppy win when it pulls. Bite, drive, win. Also, get one that genetically likes to drive as that hard, full, drive in bite is genetic, but you can ruin it with bad training. Also, the handler should not pull back or give back pressure as that encourages pulling back. With the tug too it's important to have the dog drive in to the handler.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Agree with Debbie on the winning when pushing. Disagree with Debbie on the tension though ;-) if puppy has been rewarded on pushing (and does it genetically) add a little backworths tension from both dog and decoy. Give a little room to push in the bite and reward that. It teaches the dog to keep on pushing his bite.

Above is for learning the bite on tug or (puppy) sleeve. On the suit, the decoy can do basically the same on arms or legs.


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## kamphuis gerben

hello,i start pushing winning on a puppy sleeve but when i put them on the suit i always put a pinchcollar and keep a bit tension in his neck towards the decoy 
when he pulls he feels the pinches when he pushes not 
when he pushes i let my decoy always reward him by walking backwards from the front by moving forward by biting in the back plus i really think a good biter comes by genetics you can make every dog better or worser thats training 
hopefully you can understand otherwise i will show by a movie 
greetings gerben


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## Debbie Skinner

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Agree with Debbie on the winning when pushing. Disagree with Debbie on the tension though ;-) if puppy has been rewarded on pushing (and does it genetically) add a little backworths tension from both dog and decoy. Give a little room to push in the bite and reward that. It teaches the dog to keep on pushing his bite.
> 
> Above is for learning the bite on tug or (puppy) sleeve. On the suit, the decoy can do basically the same on arms or legs.


Didnt mean never tension, but coming from America where Schutzhund is popular, don't do the pulling back thing, taunt leash that I see at clubs. give and take a bit on the leash of course when the dog needs it.


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## Charles Guyer

kamphuis gerben said:


> hello,i start pushing winning on a puppy sleeve but when i put them on the suit i always put a pinchcollar and keep a bit tension in his neck towards the decoy
> when he pulls he feels the pinches when he pushes not
> when he pushes i let my decoy always reward him by walking backwards from the front by moving forward by biting in the back plus i really think a good biter comes by genetics you can make every dog better or worser thats training
> hopefully you can understand otherwise i will show by a movie
> greetings gerben


I'd like to see the movie.


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## Joby Becker

VIDEOS PLEASE...

we need more videos...LOL

I absolutely disagree that genetics do not play a role.


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## Howard Knauf

Charles Guyer said:


> I'd like to see the movie.


 I was fortunate to see this done in person at Mike Suttle's place. It is very effective and straightforward. It's something that can be taught to a handler/trainer in short order.


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## Jim Nash

I will start out by saying I'm not an expert on the pushing bite but after the last discussion we had on this forum about it out of curiousity I worked on my own dog with it a few months before his retirement as a PSD . I just sent him off lead on a decoy in the suit and had the decoy not move at all . After not getting a reaction he would bite back into the suit and I'd praise him and have the decoy react to the bite . Initially it would be on the first bite into the decoy then I'd require more bites in before a reaction , though I would praise and pet him for each bite into the decoy . Then I would just vary the number of bites in before the decoy reacted with a fight . I used a very big padded suit so when he would pull he would come off the decoys leg and just have suit. So he figured out biting in and getting the leg meant starting the fight. It was suprisingly easy to change him over . I still prefer a puller for our work since many times we are pulling a suspect from their hiding spots or are resisting arrest by staying in a car or room . I agree that genetics can play a part but training is an issue too . In my experiance a weak dog will pull on a bite but I've never seen one push . But you can train a good dog to pull and the differences in a good dog pulling on a bite and a weak dog pulling on a bite are obvious .


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## Joby Becker

Jim Nash said:


> I will start out by saying I'm not an expert on the pushing bite but after the last discussion we had on this forum about it out of curiousity I worked on my own dog with it a few months before his retirement as a PSD . I just sent him off lead on a decoy in the suit and had the decoy not move at all . After not getting a reaction he would bite back into the suit and I'd praise him and have the decoy react to the bite . Initially it would be on the first bite into the decoy then I'd require more bites in before a reaction , though I would praise and pet him for each bite into the decoy . Then I would just vary the number of bites in before the decoy reacted with a fight . I used a very big padded suit so when he would pull he would come off the decoys leg and just have suit. So he figured out biting in and getting the leg meant starting the fight. It was suprisingly easy to change him over . I still prefer a puller for our work since many times we are pulling a suspect from their hiding spots or are resisting arrest by staying in a car or room . I agree that genetics can play a part but training is an issue too . In my experiance a weak dog will pull on a bite but I've never seen one push . But you can train a good dog to pull and the differences in a good dog pulling on a bite and a weak dog pulling on a bite are obvious .


it helps to have a dog that wants to "feel" the man in its mouth..
and one that may also may want to inflict damage to the man.

this is part of the genetics, as well as the desire to fill the mouth as full as possible. many dogs are not satisfied without their mouth full, or the feel of the man in their mouth, training plays a role obviously, but some things cannot be trained into a dog.


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## Jennifer Coulter

kamphuis gerben said:


> hello,i start pushing winning on a puppy sleeve but when i put them on the suit i always put a pinchcollar and keep a bit tension in his neck towards the decoy
> when he pulls he feels the pinches when he pushes not
> when he pushes i let my decoy always reward him by walking backwards from the front by moving forward by biting in the back plus i really think a good biter comes by genetics you can make every dog better or worser thats training
> hopefully you can understand otherwise i will show by a movie
> greetings gerben


I just learned something. Thank you. 

Not that it matters in what I do, but very informative none the less. Pulling is rewarded in my avalanche profile.


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## AJ Johnson

I say Gerbin Video please. Sounds good though in theory. I always reward for the push in and never when the dog pulls away. As for the tension I agree to keep tension on both and I always when reducing the tension do it on dogs end so that they drive in then instant reward. As for the full hard bite and hate for the man I think thats genetic. However the pushing in I feel is more training it correctly than anything else. I always like to hear fresh ideas on building the pushing grip that I feel is so desirable. Even with working PSD I never want the K9 to pull. For liability as well as the dog defending I always prefer a deep pushing bite. The suspect is coming out with the dog on him without the help of the K9 pulling him out. Just my Opinion and preference


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## Jim Nash

AJ Johnson said:


> I say Gerbin Video please. Sounds good though in theory. I always reward for the push in and never when the dog pulls away. As for the tension I agree to keep tension on both and I always when reducing the tension do it on dogs end so that they drive in then instant reward. As for the full hard bite and hate for the man I think thats genetic. However the pushing in I feel is more training it correctly than anything else. I always like to hear fresh ideas on building the pushing grip that I feel is so desirable. Even with working PSD I never want the K9 to pull. For liability as well as the dog defending I always prefer a deep pushing bite. The suspect is coming out with the dog on him without the help of the K9 pulling him out. Just my Opinion and preference


I see it more as a preference too . I want mine to hold one solid bite and like them pulling as stated before . Just a preference based on the types of situations I've been in on the street with my dogs . If others get good results from pushing and find it more bebeficial in their work , you won't get an arguement from me .


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## jason farrish

This works well for me and it's a video!
Check out this video on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qi0_GW5XWiQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player

This works well for me


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## will fernandez

AJ could you share some video of your dog pushing? Always like to see new methods


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## Selena van Leeuwen

jason farrish said:


> This works well for me and it's a video!
> Check out this video on YouTube:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qi0_GW5XWiQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player
> 
> This works well for me


That's no pushing (enough) for me ;-)
will look for vid.

edit: not a vid from us, but from PHV de Doorbijters:

http://www.youtube.com/user/Smackk9#p/u/20/bKssq_d9e64


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## Joby Becker

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> That's no pushing (enough) for me ;-)
> will look for vid.


In case you did not catch it...he was working a dog that has had a pulling grip its entire life, into becoming a pusher..seems to have been headed in the right direction for that type of dog.... but I agree, that is not pushing grip (enough)...


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Joby Becker said:


> In case you did not catch it...he was working a dog that has had a pulling grip its entire life, into becoming a pusher..seems to have been headed in the right direction for that type of dog.... but I agree, that is not pushing grip (enough)...


 yep saw it, is this the end result or just the starters, Jason?


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## Joby Becker

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> yep saw it, is this the end result or just the starters, Jason?


ok....just checking..  

I think this video shows some good stuff...

from luykensdogsite...
http://www.youtube.com/user/Smackk9#p/u/36/QRBKtSS5I2w


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## jason farrish

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> yep saw it, is this the end result or just the starters, Jason?


Just starting out with a 6 year old dog that had the schutzhund style pulling grip it's whole life. The dog was really a cadaver dog and the handler also played in schutzhund. She retired the dog shortly after to focus on cadaver


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## Jim Nash

This is a good discussion . I haven't been in a discussion on this topic before that got into such detail . I see now that there is more training going on into a dog pushing into a bite like that .

We've had a quite a few dogs come through while training them for PSD work that I thought had some work put into biting like that but was never sure . I was imagining an ecollar being involved . It's interesting to see what was possibly going on . I'm leaning more towards training being important to this behavior then I use to . Don't get me wrong I don't think you could get most weak dogs to that .


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## Joby Becker

it is interesting..

still think there is a big genetic component to it...even small pups have a preference of what to do...if you look at it as a "counter"..some fill their mouth and pull, some try to fill it more, some pull and shake, some push and shake..


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## Jim Nash

Joby Becker said:


> it is interesting..
> 
> still think there is a big genetic component to it...even small pups have a preference of what to do...if you look at it as a "counter"..some fill their mouth and pull, some try to fill it more, some pull and shake, some push and shake..


I never said genetics weren't involved . The difference I guess between some of us is to what degree genetics plays a part and to what degree training does . After reading this the degree of genetics playing apart has decreased for me but genetics still plays a part . In the long run I don't really care which is which as long as I can get the dog to do what I need the dog to do to get the job done .


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## Joby Becker

Jim Nash said:


> I never said gentics weren't involved .


never said you didnt 

my dog mostly pushes...we didn't really ever train her to do it..all I did was train the decoy NOT to work her in the typical schutzhund way of bitework, she did the rest...I have no doubts if we did it the way most schutzhund dogs are worked she would pull much more often than she does now...

in a SCH sleeve, she pulls more than not. In a Belgian type sleeve or a suit she almost always pushes. For her, (just guessing here) it seems like if she can get to the man and feel him inside, she pushes..if the suit has way too much material and she cannot get to the meat, or in a schutzhund bite bar type she pulls more. with a collapsible barrel type she pushes... it is like she knows in a regular bite bar (trial) type sleeve, that she is not gonna ever get anything except the bite bar, and then it is more like fight for the sleeve, or a game of tug...sometimes the same with a really huge suit...who knows for sure though...


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## Drew Peirce

it's a competition thing, not desirable on the street


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## kamphuis gerben

ok this works the other way around as well for ipo you need a differend gripp
steady full not pushing at all 
on a suit you dont have a bite barr like in ipo
on a suit or in real its more difficult so they slipp must digg in slipp must digg in 
actually in knpv well need both 
in the attack well want an ipo gripp what i have i have in that part they cannot digg in or they will loose their gripp than when the decoy is surrending well want to digg in other thing is i see a lot of conflict when a dog is trained in ipo so pulls whitout losing their gripp it somehow effects their brain they bite in my eyes away from the decoy so comming of and fleeying is closer than a dog who wants to stand up digg in and show dominance by engaging the decoy 
totally different than a pulling full steady gripp 
like in ipo
greetings gerben


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## Harry Keely

kamphuis gerben said:


> ok this works the other way around as well for ipo you need a differend gripp
> steady full not pushing at all
> on a suit you dont have a bite barr like in ipo
> on a suit or in real its more difficult so they slipp must digg in slipp must digg in
> actually in knpv well need both
> in the attack well want an ipo gripp what i have i have in that part they cannot digg in or they will loose their gripp than when the decoy is surrending well want to digg in other thing is i see a lot of conflict when a dog is trained in ipo so pulls whitout losing their gripp it somehow effects their brain they bite in my eyes away from the decoy so comming of and fleeying is closer than a dog who wants to stand up digg in and show dominance by engaging the decoy
> totally different than a pulling full steady gripp
> like in ipo
> greetings gerben


Interesting and in some good detail, thanks Gerben for going into some detail. Seen it done just have never really seen put into words before so thankyou.


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## AJ Johnson

will fernandez said:


> AJ could you share some video of your dog pushing? Always like to see new methods


I dont have any video of my personal dog who is still green at the moment and I decoy others but not at the point of teaching the push. These dogs are already well developed and the rest of the club is raising pups.

I moved last year and wold have plenty of video of some K9's I trained but I cant share online of that video based on departmental policy. the other videos posted are great examples though. Are you looking for further understanding or just want to see new techniques. I would love to see the Technique Suttle is using. 

Mike if your out there post up Im sure you have some great examples


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## kamphuis gerben

ok 
first full bite than courage willing to put up a fight whith the agressor,decoy
bitework is a serious thing for dog,decoy handler if everything is balanced its good if not problems for decoy or dog or handler 
there,s so much in it that you can write a book over it 
when do you start ,how do you start which age and so on 
when do you requir agression or no agression at all how do you get all these things out of a dog i think it can only work when a dog,handler decoy brings it on the table 
greetings gerben


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## Joby Becker

Drew Peirce said:


> it's a competition thing, not desirable on the street


which is not desirable? the pushing?

I can see that.

I notice that the dogs seem to really work the bite (grip) more when they are pushing, even if it is full..and some put a lot less effort into using their whole body and weight to fight. is that what you mean?


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## kamphuis gerben

mike is as i intersted in genetics 
as anyone who trains dogs not its for dogs whith the right genetics ,caracter ,lines easier to teach whatever well need for sport or for reall 
plus courage you cannot train its in their hart well say between their ears 
you can make it easier on a dog by foccusing on a steady comfortable spot on the decoy 
example upperarm left on a front attack upper arm right back attack always right legg in fleeying because it always comes into the dog so lesser effort 
and so on 
so if you train well you can make an average dog by genetichs a good dog but never a superdog 
a good dog you can make super whith the right traing 
greetings gerben


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## AJ Johnson

Joby Becker said:


> which is not desirable? the pushing?
> 
> I can see that.
> 
> I notice that the dogs seem to really work the bite (grip) more when they are pushing, even if it is full..and some put a lot less effort into using their whole body and weight to fight. is that what you mean?



I dont know what about a dog digging in and biting harder when fighting is not desirable for any work IMO.

I have had to complete a few depositions on dogs that have pulled and torn ligaments muscle from bone etc for justification that sending and training that K9 was not borderline police brutality. 
Biting and holding is good. Biting and pushing good. Biting and pulling just leaves the door open for liability again in my experience and opinion. Its definitely not just a sport thing though at all. Unfortunately their are far too many PD's that are not educated or disciplined enough in their K9 program and allow some dogs to work the streets that should have been washed out.

Please dont forget almost every dog sport was created to test the police serviceability of the breed/dog by testing them through certain pressures. The difference between a sport dog and service dog is the training past the titles


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## kamphuis gerben

sorry i must disagree 
i think a reall police dog is born why otherwise its explainable that the best and strongest requirment for dogs whith the most heavy test muzzle test civil exstreme huntdrive and so on buys 10 mths old opgs whith almost no training past their testing and other strong prepared dogs 2 years old fail 
its genetics plus good training but first genetics that will carrying the true for at least 75 %
greetings geben


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## kamphuis gerben

and again pulling is or bad training weak genetics or lack of confidence or a request from a program that desires it like ipo 
its really like this a dog who pulls away from the decoy tries to avoid him or his pressure 
so hes much easier to get in his brain from a decoys prospective than a dog who wants to digg in towards a decoy thats already the first step to a good fight


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## Joby Becker

AJ Johnson said:


> I dont know what about a dog digging in and biting harder when fighting is not desirable for any work IMO.
> 
> I have had to complete a few depositions on dogs that have pulled and torn ligaments muscle from bone etc for justification that sending and training that K9 was not borderline police brutality.
> Biting and holding is good. Biting and pushing good. Biting and pulling just leaves the door open for liability again in my experience and opinion. Its definitely not just a sport thing though at all. Unfortunately their are far too many PD's that are not educated or disciplined enough in their K9 program and allow some dogs to work the streets that should have been washed out.
> 
> Please dont forget almost every dog sport was created to test the police serviceability of the breed/dog by testing them through certain pressures. The difference between a sport dog and service dog is the training past the titles


I was trying to pick Drew's brain some.. he very rarely goes into any details....


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## jason farrish

Here is the pushing in work with a puppy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzS1toUCuvk


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## Jim Nash

AJ , mind sending me the court cases where wether pushing or pulling was an issue ? I've been doing this for awhile now and try to keep up on my court cases and this is the first time I've heard this .


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## Drew Peirce

> I would love to see the technique Suttle is using


classic:lol:


(yeah joby, the pushing)


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## David Frost

Jim Nash said:


> AJ , mind sending me the court cases where wether pushing or pulling was an issue ? I've been doing this for awhile now and try to keep up on my court cases and this is the first time I've heard this .



I'd like to see the court references as well. 

As for police work, let's not confuse the "pushing bite" with a dog that is trained to drag someone out of hiding. Different behaviors. 

I agree this is, in my opinion, one of the most interesting discussions I've seen since I became a member of this forum. 


DFrost


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## kamphuis gerben

after getting so many reall bites in live from many different dogs in training accident or its just comming whith the job it hurts when hes pushing or pulling no doubt but when the times there and its him or you 
i prefer to fight a pulling dog over a pushing dog 
in that case i have the better chance tocome out of it 
this is not maybe but its like it is 
so for work i prefer a dog who goes in by genetics just to give a bad guy not that opening


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## kamphuis gerben

to hell whith court better to say hes standing there than afterwards saying hes lying there 
afterwards well deal whith court


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## David Frost

kamphuis gerben said:


> to hell whith court better to say hes standing there than afterwards saying hes lying there
> afterwards well deal whith court



Believe me, I wish it were that easy to just say "hell with the court". ha ha

DFrost


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## Joby Becker

just shot a crappy video LOL..

typical gripping for the dog...was taking bite and filming so camera is very shaky, and could not look through it so was just holding it up LOL...on top of the stairs I was trying to push dog backwards and she drives in, opposing that force and pushes forward...This is me in the sleeve so it is a little different than how she might work with someone else...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQafyCFfSJk

and a couple OLD ones that most everyone saw...

These two were seated, to keep dog calmer, guys green demanet jacket is HUGE on him, I doubt the dog gets to him that much...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dEcIif5q8E&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

in this one she does start pulling after she gets onto the ground, after being lifted.. but decoy gets her pushing again...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpwAdTR7o6w

this is another one starts off seated and then onto the ground, not much pulling behavior, with tighter jacket...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tE4iCm_-Kk8&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

and first time biting the leg with a friend...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caxbFC3H6ls&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

pretty typical for her. not really trained. She always pushed in most situations, except with a bite bar sleeve or a huge suit. Just avoided training her to pull....

not the greatest dog, but I like her a lot...


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## Jim Nash

kamphuis gerben said:


> to hell whith court better to say hes standing there than afterwards saying hes lying there
> afterwards well deal whith court


Something you need to be aware of is that in the United States defense attorneys having been trying to get PSDs to be labled as Deadly Force . They do this largely by going after how much damage a K9 does in certain cases . 

If they ever succeed the dog will fall under the same thing as a gun . No use using a dog then because a gun does a much better job . Also if that happens PSDs most likely will only be used as locating tools with no option to bite . If that was the case we could start using many other breeds from Bloodhounds , Labs , Golden Retreivers , etc . . What many K9 handlers and the people that train and/or supply dogs to them , don't undertstand is we as fellow K9 Handlers have an obligation to each other to handle and train our dogs appropiately . If you don't , yours could be the case that screws it up for everyone else .

As for AJ's contention about the pushing and pulling comparison in regards to the damage each may cause . Having handled 2 PSDs for 14 years , with over a hundred physical apprehensions between the 2 of them and having witnessed many many more assisting and training with other K9 Officers I can tell you there is much more that goes into how much physical damage may or may not occur in a real incident then wether the K9 pushes or pulls on a bite .


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## Debbie Skinner

Here is D'Only at 15 weeks working on the bite (it's genetics + training):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tE-k1FR44oY


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## AJ Johnson

Jim Nash said:


> Something you need to be aware of is that in the United States defense attorneys having been trying to get PSDs to be labled as Deadly Force . They do this largely by going after how much damage a K9 does in certain cases .
> 
> If they ever succeed the dog will fall under the same thing as a gun . No use using a dog then because a gun does a much better job . Also if that happens PSDs most likely will only be used as locating tools with no option to bite . If that was the case we could start using many other breeds from Bloodhounds , Labs , Golden Retreivers , etc . . What many K9 handlers and the people that train and/or supply dogs to them , don't undertstand is we as fellow K9 Handlers have an obligation to each other to handle and train our dogs appropiately . If you don't , yours could be the case that screws it up for everyone else .
> 
> As for AJ's contention about the pushing and pulling comparison in regards to the damage each may cause . Having handled 2 PSDs for 14 years , with over a hundred physical apprehensions between the 2 of them and having witnessed many many more assisting and training with other K9 Officers I can tell you there is much more that goes into how much physical damage may or may not occur in a real incident then wether the K9 pushes or pulls on a bite .


I totally agree their is a hundred different reasons and scenarios that are associated with the damage caused. I have just found IMO in demoing a pushing dog during wrestling and fighting the dog it looks and appears to be a lot more controlled and civil than a dog that is yanking away after having torn someone to pieces. 

Either way my main point was to combat the statement that Drew made in pushing is for sport dogs only which I totally disagree. 

As for cases I'm not trying to change topic I was looking for other techniques people are using not to talk court. In all my time as LE court was my least favorite part of the job. 

Mike where are you with the vids


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Please guys i really need a reply to this,
I've seen a lot of dogs that have a 'strong' bite but its not really full like those knpv dogs on smackk9. From the way they bite i'm 99% sure its not a confidence issue but for some reason the bite is not full. Fero vom zeuterner himmelreich had such grips and i am yet to see a better GSD stud in the past few years.
Would you breed a dog that doesn't grip full but bites really hard and confidently? Is a full bite a criteria for judging the strength of the dog.#


In this video i noticed that the dog's initial grip wasn't full but with the handler touching the dog's mouth it gripped with a fuller mouth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJtAvqaQNTs

Please i'd really apprecate comments.


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## Jim Nash

AJ Johnson said:


> I totally agree their is a hundred different reasons and scenarios that are associated with the damage caused. I have just found IMO in demoing a pushing dog during wrestling and fighting the dog it looks and appears to be a lot more controlled and civil than a dog that is yanking away after having torn someone to pieces.
> 
> Either way my main point was to combat the statement that Drew made in pushing is for sport dogs only which I totally disagree.
> 
> As for cases I'm not trying to change topic I was looking for other techniques people are using not to talk court. In all my time as LE court was my least favorite part of the job.
> 
> Mike where are you with the vids


Well to keep this on topic how about sending me those court cases by PM .


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## Joby Becker

AJ Johnson said:


> I dont have any video of my personal dog who is still green at the moment and I decoy others* but not at the point of teaching the push*.


Please explain...what do you mean by "not at the point", just curious...

I would think if that was what was desired, it would be worked toward, from the beginning.

Do you convert to a push after some other training? I am still holding firm to the belief that if a dog is a pusher, he will push from the beginning if not taught to something different...if you think it is only a trained thing, and not genetic, and you desire a pushing grip why would you* train* a dog to do another gripping behavior, only to try to retrain it later...that seems really counter-productive...and if it is genetic for that dog, why train it out, only to try to bring it back? 
Am I missing something????


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: I think this is a topic most people think is genetic when in reality it is really a trained habit for most.

Or, some of us have seen enough puppies in our lifetimes to know that some puppies drive in, and some puppies pull.


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## Joby Becker

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> Please guys i really need a reply to this,
> I've seen a lot of dogs that have a 'strong' bite but its not really full like those knpv dogs on smackk9. From the way they bite i'm 99% sure its not a confidence issue but for some reason the bite is not full. Fero vom zeuterner himmelreich had such grips and i am yet to see a better GSD stud in the past few years.
> Would you breed a dog that doesn't grip full but bites really hard and confidently? Is a full bite a criteria for judging the strength of the dog.#
> 
> 
> In this video i noticed that the dog's initial grip wasn't full but with the handler touching the dog's mouth it gripped with a fuller mouth.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJtAvqaQNTs
> 
> Please i'd really apprecate comments.


all I can say is that some dogs have almost a "NEED" to fill their mouth, and some don't...


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## Debbie Skinner

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: I think this is a topic most people think is genetic when in reality it is really a trained habit for most.
> 
> Or, some of us have seen enough puppies in our lifetimes to know that some puppies drive in, and some puppies pull.


I filmed some of D'Only's pups at 6 weeks old over this weekend..how much training could I possibly of put into these pups at their age? Exactly some just drive in from Nature. Ron will get the vids up on youtube from his dsl connection at work this week and I'll post. Of course you can then do the Schutz thing and get them to pull if you try hard enough..that goes w/o saying.


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## Ron Gnodde

Some dogs like to pull, some push or are easy to get to push. If you are wearing a T shirt what does it matter.


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## Jim Nash

Ron Gnodde said:


> Some dogs like to pull, some push or are easy to get to push. If you are wearing a T shirt what does it matter.


Amen .


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> Please guys i really need a reply to this,
> I've seen a lot of dogs that have a 'strong' bite but its not really full like those knpv dogs on smackk9. From the way they bite i'm 99% sure its not a confidence issue but for some reason the bite is not full. Fero vom zeuterner himmelreich had such grips and i am yet to see a better GSD stud in the past few years.
> Would you breed a dog that doesn't grip full but bites really hard and confidently? Is a full bite a criteria for judging the strength of the dog.#
> 
> 
> In this video i noticed that the dog's initial grip wasn't full but with the handler touching the dog's mouth it gripped with a fuller mouth.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJtAvqaQNTs
> 
> Please i'd really apprecate comments.



Guys please!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## AJ Johnson

My point was that my current dog is in the middle of targeting. That's what I am working on and yes the push was and is trained early on puppy sleeve tugs etc. As for the moment he is transitioning to suit work and have begun his targeting and will then build bite more after that is confidently done. My current dog is a Rott and I am training him a little differently than I would a Dutch or mal or even GSD because of some of his characteristics. That's an entirely other topic. 

As for genetics and training. I agree that the genetics for the deep fight have to be there first and foremost. However the honing of the trait is after a training development so that it is done consistently at the same level no matter what. I believe Dick said once he wants a dog that when cracked over the head it amps him up not turns him off. That is the genetic foundation that is needed IMO. Pulling in some dogs I do believe is an avoidance to conflict and pressure. To others not so much.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Dogs used to be pack animals. What would happen if they all pushed in to choke an animal out ? Got to have the guys pulling in the back.

I read that somewhere.


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## Jim Nash

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> Please guys i really need a reply to this,
> I've seen a lot of dogs that have a 'strong' bite but its not really full like those knpv dogs on smackk9. From the way they bite i'm 99% sure its not a confidence issue but for some reason the bite is not full. Fero vom zeuterner himmelreich had such grips and i am yet to see a better GSD stud in the past few years.
> Would you breed a dog that doesn't grip full but bites really hard and confidently? Is a full bite a criteria for judging the strength of the dog.#
> 
> 
> In this video i noticed that the dog's initial grip wasn't full but with the handler touching the dog's mouth it gripped with a fuller mouth.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJtAvqaQNTs
> 
> Please i'd really apprecate comments.


Sorry , I can't really answer that without knowing the dog and the dog's training . A full bite IMO may or may not be a criteria for the strength of the dog . Once again , I'd have to know the dog and it's training . I know I prefer a full bite but it's not entirely neccessary . David Frost has a good saying for this I'll let him cover it .


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## Jeff Oehlsen

So if a dog bites the ever living shit out of you, but has half his mouth full, does it really matter ?


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## will fernandez

AJ Johnson said:


> I dont have any video of my personal dog who is still green at the moment and I decoy others but not at the point of teaching the push. These dogs are already well developed and the rest of the club is raising pups.
> 
> I moved last year and wold have plenty of video of some K9's I trained but I cant share online of that video based on departmental policy. the other videos posted are great examples though. Are you looking for further understanding or just want to see new techniques. I would love to see the Technique Suttle is using.
> 
> Mike if your out there post up Im sure you have some great examples


I could always send you my Dept email. I am sure the other dept would have no problem sharing info with another dept.

I am always interested in new ways of training.


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## will fernandez

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> So if a dog bites the ever living shit out of you, but has half his mouth full, does it really matter ?


 
The only thing that I prefer with the pusher is that it is easier to get control over him by the collar. The puller that starts hopping up and down pulling is just a pain in the ass.

Both types work the same for extracting criminals from under houses and cars.

For police work it is hard to maintain the pusher. Inexperienced decoys will not know when to give in to the dog when he readjusts and allow themselves to be pushed by the dog. This is the reason why 90 percent of our PSD are pullers.


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## Kevin Walsh

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> So if a dog bites the ever living shit out of you, but has half his mouth full, does it really matter ?


depends if it's for points or not ; )


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## Joby Becker

Kevin Walsh said:


> depends if it's for points or not ; )


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## Donna DeYoung

Dogs used to be pack animals. What would happen if they all pushed in to choke an animal out ? Got to have the guys pulling in the back.

good pt!

what type of bite is this this? Tyson vd schiffslache
http://youtu.be/ni4D6O1Szx4

another fav - full bite (puller) (son of Tyson)
http://youtu.be/Vdbot8xqWXA


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## Christopher Jones

kamphuis gerben said:


> sorry i must disagree
> i think a reall police dog is born why otherwise its explainable that the best and strongest requirment for dogs whith the most heavy test muzzle test civil exstreme huntdrive and so on buys 10 mths old opgs whith almost no training past their testing and other strong prepared dogs 2 years old fail
> its genetics plus good training but first genetics that will carrying the true for at least 75 %
> greetings geben


I agree fully. You cant train heart.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Kevin Walsh said:


> depends if it's for points or not ; )


I've been thinking of this for a while cos i see a lot of dogs that bite with a lot of force but just don't fill their mouths like some other dogs. I decoyed a wolfkerskroon gsd and his bite wasn't so full but i had shoulder pains for like 2 days and it was just sleeve work.
I believe many KNPV dogs have a really strong bite but not all are initially full, i think there are some techniques the dutch guys use to encourage a deeper bite. 
Back to my original question, if a dog has no environmental issues and will bite in any situation but its not a perfect full grip would you consider it breeding quality?


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## Drew Peirce

No environmental issues and willingness to bite in any situation are basic requirements, there's still a long way to go from there before you call anything breeding quality, perfect full grip to me is icing on the cake, it's like somebody giving you a ferrari but it's not the exact color you would have chosen, are you gonna give it back because of that?


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## Zakia Days

Joby Becker said:


> ok....just checking..
> 
> I think this video shows some good stuff...
> 
> from luykensdogsite...
> http://www.youtube.com/user/Smackk9#p/u/36/QRBKtSS5I2w


Gerben,

It's nice to see you on here. It's been a while. Tim says "hello." 

When we visited you in Holland a few years ago, you had a female that pushed like this. And so nicely too. What happened to her? Where is she now and what was her breeding? I do not remember. Hope Mo' and Boy are doing well.


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## AJ Johnson

Back to the original question. Lets say you prefer the deep pushing bite and are training for that within your dog or someone elses or whatever. The dog has great temperment and nerve and likes to bite. What are some additonal techniques fellow decoys are using to help promote that type of bite?? 

I think that covers any possible side questions that may spark up LOL


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## Joby Becker

AJ Johnson said:


> Back to the original question. Lets say you prefer the deep pushing bite and are training for that within your dog or someone elses or whatever. The dog has great temperment and nerve and likes to bite. What are some additonal techniques fellow decoys are using to help promote that type of bite??
> 
> I think that covers any possible side questions that may spark up LOL



look at smackk9 on youtube...or some of the other KNPV videos, and also the NVBK videos...

there are many many videos, that if you watch, you will see different techniques used...


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## Selena van Leeuwen

at the YT channel of the Luijken boys are good trainings vid with different techniques, I found some of Gerben, at YT channel of Martine Loots are also some trainingvids. She showed some here, ranges from puppies/ young adults/ dogs who are (almost) ready.


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## Christopher Jones

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> Please guys i really need a reply to this,
> I've seen a lot of dogs that have a 'strong' bite but its not really full like those knpv dogs on smackk9. From the way they bite i'm 99% sure its not a confidence issue but for some reason the bite is not full. Fero vom zeuterner himmelreich had such grips and i am yet to see a better GSD stud in the past few years.
> Would you breed a dog that doesn't grip full but bites really hard and confidently? Is a full bite a criteria for judging the strength of the dog.#
> 
> 
> In this video i noticed that the dog's initial grip wasn't full but with the handler touching the dog's mouth it gripped with a fuller mouth.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJtAvqaQNTs
> 
> Please i'd really apprecate comments.


I think you might be giving Fero a bit more credit than he really deserves. I remember when he was alive and had alot of progeny on the ground and there were ALOT of people who didnt like the nerves that Fero brought to the table. Infact there were breeders who would go out of their way to not have him in their bloodlines and would use "Fero Free" as an advertisment. The biggest issue was the nerves off the field. He produces alright SchH dogs, but as police dogs they had issues. I remember having conversations with some German breeders who said if there was no Timmy and Troll, there was no Fero.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Christopher Jones said:


> I think you might be giving Fero a bit more credit than he really deserves. I remember when he was alive and had alot of progeny on the ground and there were ALOT of people who didnt like the nerves that Fero brought to the table. Infact there were breeders who would go out of their way to not have him in their bloodlines and would use "Fero Free" as an advertisment. The biggest issue was the nerves off the field. He produces alright SchH dogs, but as police dogs they had issues. I remember having conversations with some German breeders who said if there was no Timmy and Troll, there was no Fero.


 
Interesting, this was also mentioned on an HGH herding forum [i.e. Fero and nerves]. And mostly when you look at the pedigrees you see the combination of those three.


Terrasita


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

what i mean is we as trainers like to see a very full bite but some strong dogs initially do not bite full(i dont mean shallow bites with only the canines) even though the bite is hard so we have to train them in a way that encourages the behavior(deep/full bite). I see many dutch knpv guys holding the dog's head into position, pulling the dog's collar etc all in a bid to encourage the dog to bite deeper.


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## Daniel Lybbert

I like a deep bite too. I have a friend that has a FR 3 dog. Hardest biting dog Ive been bitten by yet. He bites so much suit and is so intense to get more suit, that he has a hard time breathing. The handler wishes it would just bite and be content. It really does come into play when training. Takes alot of unnessary steam out of the dog. If the dog bites with a good strong bite in FR its ok. There is no score in the quality of the bite just if he gets the job done with no stb and sto. 
I think we all still work the grip it is very important. Just another thought to think about.


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## kamphuis gerben

hello,just started whith a young female this week no training at all whe call it a green dog 
superhuntdrive bites super full and calm on an ipo sleeve 
let her get his first bite on the knpv suit today 
very confident must strangle her of but not a full gripp why shes not into pushing at all what she has she keeps 
what i will do this week play whith her whith an half empty soccerbal the only way she can bite on it is by pushing i will do short sessions this week and give her a gripp by sunday again 
iam pretty sure than she starts pushing 
greetings gerben


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: I remember having conversations with some German breeders who said if there was no Timmy and Troll, there was no Fero.

This is true, I have seen some dogs out of Fero that were nervy. However, he was bred many many times and produced Timmy and Troll. Kinda shows you how the US with it's breed once a year maybe thought process is failing us.


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## Kevin Walsh

kamphuis gerben said:


> hello,just started whith a young female this week no training at all whe call it a green dog
> superhuntdrive bites super full and calm on an ipo sleeve
> let her get his first bite on the knpv suit today
> very confident must strangle her of but not a full gripp why shes not into pushing at all what she has she keeps
> what i will do this week play whith her whith an half empty soccerbal the only way she can bite on it is by pushing i will do short sessions this week and give her a gripp by sunday again
> iam pretty sure than she starts pushing
> greetings gerben


" i will do this week play whith her whith an half empty soccerbal the only way she can bite on it is by pushing"

If you could expand on this, I would appreciate it. Do you back-tie and play with the soccer ball?
Also, on a side note, how do you go about calming a hectic grip?

please/thanks


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## Brett Bowen

I think preference for any street dog should be to dig in. The bad guy is going to be moving wildly trying to get away or fight the dog. Chances are the dog's not going to get a good grip. If the dog doesn't adjust all that's going to happen is a torn shirt. 

A good example is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b088815PTEc 

I've seen a better video of that somewhere can't seem to find it now. That dog clearly should've done way better and probably needs some additional training. But that dog comes up with nothing but shirt a couple times.


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## Jim Nash

Brett Bowen said:


> I think preference for any street dog should be to dig in. The bad guy is going to be moving wildly trying to get away or fight the dog. Chances are the dog's not going to get a good grip. If the dog doesn't adjust all that's going to happen is a torn shirt.
> 
> A good example is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b088815PTEc
> 
> I've seen a better video of that somewhere can't seem to find it now. That dog clearly should've done way better and probably needs some additional training. But that dog comes up with nothing but shirt a couple times.


That video has nothing to with a pushing or pulling bite .


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## Brett Bowen

My point is simply if the dog had readjusted and pushed in, he wouldn't have pulled away with nothing but a shirt. Granted there are many issues in that video. Maybe this is another terminology deal that means something different to different people. I'll go back to my hole and just read posts now.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Jim Nash said:


> That video has nothing to with a pushing or pulling bite .


AMEN to that..... a stronger dog would have been more effective in a muzzle IMO, the dog showed hesitation, at least from the video.
I think there are situations (in training and real life deployments) that a dog is unable to bite with a full mouth. I wish the BAD COMPANY video was still on youtube, a lot of the bites were not full but the dogs looked strong and committed and it makes me wonder how much the dept of the bite has to do with a strong dog.......in all i think a good decoy will feel the impact of a strong dog and can judge better.
as for pullers i love this dog

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQpi1xL45Jg


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