# So… what's up with the remaining active members of the forum?



## Nicole Stark

I could break this out and personally address each person I recall had something going on in the past six or so months to see if that approach might garner a response. But…

WTF, why not. Where shall I start? Well...

*Leslie* - how's the new place? Have you welcomed in any new companions?
*Phil* - how is your dog project coming along? Where are you at with your training?
*Matt* - don't reply unless things are well.
*Connie* - do you have anything new or interesting health/food related to share?
*Bob *- surely you have plenty of plans laid out for the holidays. Anything interesting going on?
*Howard* - how's the pup coming along? Any new pics?
*Misty* - how do you like your new back pack? Learn anything new lately?
*Sarah* - whatever became of the angulation topic? Did you form any conclusions from your research?
*Rick* - I'd like to see your photography. What's your favorite subject to shoot?
*Khoi *- now that your pup seems to be coming into his own do you have any plans for him that might be different from how you raised up your last dog?
*Sefi *- are you doing anything new with Tara these days?
*Jim* - I saw you pop up recently, what are you up to these days?
*Hilde* - have you found anything worthwhile in the archives?
*Ed *- what do you do with in the winter with your Dale(s)?
*Dee* - I also saw you pop up too. You don't post much so how about an update about your interest in working dogs?
*Nicole* - what the hell is wrong with you? Why do you amuse yourself in such sophomoric ways? ANSWER: unintelligible.
*Yungster* - did you fix all the damage you guys did to the forum earlier this week? :wink:

One more thing, if I forgot someone then by all means bust me out. I want to see if I still have some marbles left in my head.

*PS - if I had a Christmas wish it would be for those of you who remember Lee Sternberg to please send him a PM to say hello or wish him a Merry Christmas; but only if it's in your heart and mind to do so.*


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## Connie Sutherland

Hi, Nicole,

Thank you for reminding me to PM Lee. I just did so.

I've exchanged some extremely funny PMs with Lee in the past.


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## Bob Scott

Holiday plans

Thanksgiving was as usual.

Turkey day at the wife's brothers house. Next day at our house with our kids and grandkids. Saturday at one of the sister's house with my bros, sisters, and their kids and family.

Christmas will be at our house with our kids, grandkids and wife's family. Saturday after will be with my bros and sisters, kids and grandkids at one of the sister's houses. That's a HUGE "bring a dish" PARTAAAY! 

Being one of 7 kids the holidays were always a cluster **** when we all had families and after my parents passed on we decide to make the Saturday after Thanksgiving and Christmas for my bros, sisters and kids and grandkids. Another "bring a dish" PARTAAAY! That avoids all sorts of time differences between dinner times with each of the sibs families on the actual Holiday. 

Big change this yr was one of my brothers has been in a permanent care facility because of late stages of Parkinsons disease. I picked him up at the home so he could still be with us on those holidays. I'll do the same for the Saturday after Christmas. 

The seven of us pretty much raised one another and we are still very close so that wont change as long as we still have some control. We all still get together once every 5-6 weeks at one of our houses.

Grateful that we are all still here and looking forward to a new year. 

Nicole, thanks so very much! (((((((((HUGS)))))))))


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## Connie Sutherland

Bob Scott said:


> Holiday plans
> 
> Thanksgiving was as usual.
> 
> Turkey day at the wife's brothers house. Next day at our house with our kids and grandkids. Saturday at one of the sister's house with my bros, sisters, and their kids and family.
> 
> Christmas will be at our house with our kids, grandkids and wife's family. Saturday after will be with my bros and sisters, kids and grandkids at one of the sister's houses. That's a HUGE "bring a dish" PARTAAAY!
> 
> Being one of 7 kids the holidays were always a cluster **** when we all had families and after my parents passed on we decide to make the Saturday after Thanksgiving and Christmas for my bros, sisters and kids and grandkids. Another "bring a dish" PARTAAAY! That avoids all sorts of time differences between dinner times with each of the sibs families on the actual Holiday.
> 
> Big change this yr was one of my brothers has been in a permanent care facility because of late stages of Parkinsons disease. I picked him up at the home so he could still be with us on those holidays. I'll do the same for the Saturday after Christmas.
> 
> The seven of us pretty much raised one another and we are still very close so that wont change as long as we still have some control. We all still get together once every 5-6 weeks at one of our houses.
> 
> Grateful that we are all still here and looking forward to a new year.
> 
> Nicole, thanks so very much! (((((((((HUGS)))))))))


That sounds great, Bob. Your family is amazing.

I'm so sorry about your brother. I'm glad he has you!


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## Bob Scott

He ain't heavy! :wink:


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## leslie cassian

New place (60 acres in rural Ontario) is awesome... I go for walks to the back forty and it amazes me that I own this. It is truly beautiful here. I do not miss city life. Dogs love it, too. Planning to add chickens and a horse or two in the spring. I would like to get another retired sled dog, so will likely do that when their sled season is done and the dogs become available for adoption. Also feeling a bit of puppy fever, though not sure I'm ready yet for that challenge. 

Christmas will be quiet, as it is most years. My family is on the west coast, and I am in Ontario, so getting together for holidays doesn't happen. I like not having to go anywhere, or do anything, except what I want to do. It will be me and the man and the dogs and the cat. Lots of food, drinks, and whatever indulgent treats I feel like making. 

Wazzup with you? Plans for the festive season?


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## leslie cassian

I make them pose for me every year. You can see the love... 



Festive greetings!


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## Khoi Pham

No change for me, he is exactly where I want him to be right now.


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## Connie Sutherland

Those holiday plans sound great, Leslie!

And Khoi ... excellent!


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## Howard Knauf

The wife isn't feeling the pup. She's forgotten how hard pups are. Been 10 years since we had one in the house. He may, or may not become a permanent family member. He does have lots of the same mannerisms as RJ but I don't think it's enough to turn her. Sucks because the money could have been used elsewhere. I have a feeling that he is gradually growing on her but we'll see.


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## Misty Wegner

Ah Howard... That sucks.. Hope the pup turns the charm on and wins her over... 

Thanks for Checking in on everyone Nicole  

LOVE LOVE LOVE the Aarn backpack (s)! They have truly saved my back, neck and shoulders! Been busy getting pups certified in hrd Land and water and article thru IPWDA and NSDA (for my boy on water)... 

How is it going with you?


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## Sarah Platts

re: angulation. Grrr, can't make new paragraphs...... I feel that people accept badly structured dogs because they have been brainwashed that it's normal. I watched a video of a GSD dog tormenting some poor sheep and having the owner exclaim "oh, look he's herding...." No, woman, your dog was harassing the sheep. Learn the difference. And having a poster comment that his gaiting meant he would be taking fewer steps. And would thus make a more efficient working dog. The dog was walking on his hocks and with his weak front pasterns that he looked like a dog trotting with fuzzy shovels on the end of his legs. But this dog was crowned a GSD "Champion" so the bad genes continue.


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## Phil Dodson

Training is coming along slowly as Palermo injured his front left foot and is temporarily out of commission. His retrieve is great, on off leash obedience is finished. His article search is good and he has mastered the agility course. When I am able to get him started in tracking then I will eventually start his bite work as well.


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## Bob Scott

Howard Knauf said:


> The wife isn't feeling the pup. She's forgotten how hard pups are. Been 10 years since we had one in the house. He may, or may not become a permanent family member. He does have lots of the same mannerisms as RJ but I don't think it's enough to turn her. Sucks because the money could have been used elsewhere. I have a feeling that he is gradually growing on her but we'll see.



Hard not to compare a new pup with a dog that was special.


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## rick smith

Howard

re : "The wife isn't feeling the pup. She's forgotten how hard pups are. Been 10 years since we had one in the house. He may, or may not become a permanent family member. He does have lots of the same mannerisms as RJ but I don't think it's enough to turn her. Sucks because the money could have been used elsewhere. I have a feeling that he is gradually growing on her but we'll see.”

- a few thoughts (most of which u already know)
1. any new addition is a 24/7 job … some take longer than others … she knows that but if she still relates it to a past dog, it’ll just make things harder. your help to develop a new set of “cool stuff” about this pup will help get that out of her head. until she sees stuff in the new addition that attracts her she won’t forget the last one
- my current house dog was 1 1/2 on arrival and even tho i told her it would happen, when my wife saw the way he latched on to my arm it took her over six months to stop telling me he wouldn’t change and was better off being killed. translation : you need to do the heavy lifting for awhile; so hope you can find the time
2. don’t ever tell her “he aint RJ” …. that only reinforces what needs to be forgotten
3. never tell her all pups are a PITA …. that is just a negative reinforcer
4. constantly look for (and train) unique (to him) positive behaviors that can be praised and if they aren’t there right now, make some happen, even if it’s just new cute pet tricks she hasn't seen that will make her smile and appreciate his "uniqueness" 
5. if he’s high drive don’t simply try to wear him out with exercise. focus more on tiring him out mentally by challenging him with impulse control drills. hopefull do it when she’s watching and can do the same herself
6. help her to get him to follow her like a shadow but stay off her ankles
7. teach him to respect the lead indoors b4 he gets off lead permission and don't over rely on a crate

this is all basic stuff except maybe #4,5 but i wanted to spell em out since altho i don’t know the issues, they have helped every client i’ve ever worked with who got a new house dog and had some buyer's remorse or second thoughts about their choice

…hope this gets posted. my last entry took a week to get posted. was never told why and pretty much gave up on the forum :-(


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## Connie Sutherland

Just a quick interjection .... Rick, it was a glitch if a post took a week to be posted. We are still having 'em right now, but most of the bugs are ironed out.

Here's the thread where we mentioned that repairs were underway:
http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f31/testing-thread-feel-free-post-50452/


And back to our regularly scheduled programming .... :wink:


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## rick smith

of course we never forget special dogs. and shouldn't

the key is to get a special identity for the new dog by bringing out behaviors unique to that dog and it often doesn't happen that way unless that is the goal and sometimes it doesn't happen unless it's planned
- one comes to mind. a dog that couldn't catch a treat off its nose (that the old dog did well) no matter how hard the owners tried. showed them how to get the dog to cross its paws. they refocussed and now that dog will cross its paws in a down, in a sit and when it stands on 2 legs or all four. left over right and right over left. they loved it and helped them turn the corner. their "old dog" never did that //lol//
- new challenges for both the owner and dog help the dog develop its own identity, and they can both start with simple stuff if you have a plan


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## rick smith

Nicole
that's a tough one to answer because i really don't have priorities for what i like to shoot

- i converted our ballet studio into a photo studio for myself and for others to use any way they like. so i've concentrated on studio work where i can play with light and control it in different ways. LOTS of portraits, bodyscapes and fashion shots, but i also love the challenge to shoot a simple item on a table lit in unique ways. i also like to shoot outdoors but often have a dog with me and that complicates things 
- for me photography has become all about 'seeing light' and its effect rather than shooting a subject. as an art form more than a documentary or a story, so i CAN say i'm definitely not a FB/Instagram 'street shooter' 
- been a challenge re-learning the basics to compose a shot on manual settings rather than "program mode", but a lot of fun so far


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## Lee H Sternberg

I've been receiving some Pam's recently. Connie was the last one. 

I've been absent recently due to some major health issues. 

My lung cancer is back and it's spread into my lymph nodes.

The prognosis is not encouraging at all.

I'm trying to get my affairs un order while I'm still feeling reasonably well.

Other than trying to accept the future sucking up a few COCO LOCOS.


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## Howard Knauf

Rick,

Thanks for reminding me. I'll do what I can. She has been working with him on basic OB using markers and food. She is pretty proud of what she's done so far even though she is only OK at it. I give kudos to her work to make her feel better.

Lee,

Good to hear from you again. Sucks that you have bad news. Hang in there brother, you are a fighter.


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## Lee H Sternberg

Glad to see you're not doing ballet anymore. I can't picture you on one of those little dresses. HAHA


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## Connie Sutherland

Lee, it's great to see your name here again -- and it SUCKS that you are facing this. I'm very sorry. I too would be sucking up a few of those COCO LOCOS.

I will have some wine today, at least, starting soon, at the annual holiday party (out in the yard of the host) of a group of dog people.

It's a cool bright sunny day here on the north-central coast of California. Good day for a potluck and a Yankee Swap of gifts. 

Lee, I am thinking of you and sending much metta your way.


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## Sarah Platts

Lee, 


Wonderful to see your posting. Sucks about the cancer coming back. Won't even pretend I know what you are going through. But getting things in order, with all the power of attnys gives everyone some breathing room.


Merry Christmas!


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## Sarah Platts

Nicole, (crap, can't make paragraphs again.... I must have worn out the 'return' button and my welcome with the electron gods...) Anyway, besides the dog training, I'm doing work on the house. Seems if I'm not busy with the dogs, I'm busy with the house. After trying to find someone who would sell me kitchen cabinets, I just found out the order is on the truck and enroute to me. Should be here just after Christmas and I get to put the finish on them. This was all SUPPOSED to have happened this spring but it didn't. So instead of taking the mess outside, it's happening in my living room.


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## Bob Scott

Lee, GREAT hearing from you. 

Know that all here are in your rooting/cheering section.


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## Misty Wegner

I'm so sorry to hear that Lee... I am praying for you.. Truly unable to comprehend what you are going through but know that God knows and I pray healing and comfort for you.


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## rick smith

maybe irrelevant....but i think it's worth stating since the subject came up

- clickers certainly have their place and i am NOT 'anti-clicker', but the only advantage i see is that the sound is consistent.

with that said, they also have disadvantages depending on how you use markers and it has been well documented on here that everyone has their own version of the marker system 

i used to use them a LOT, but in my latter years i used them only in the very beginning when teaching someone who knew nothing about markers. 
- why ? because it was unique, they paid more attention and were eager to try a new “tool” that they had (maybe) heard about but never tried before  iow, it was more for the person than the dog //lol//

from reading Bob”s last well detailed post, i can say i have used markers in a VERY similar method based on the examples he provided. one thing he did not point out (altho obvious if you think about it) is that duration marks will require a verbal, as will other markers which i won’t list but am SURE he uses. which (obviously) means you can’t use a clicker for all marks, even when starting out training a new behavior. 

a few reasons that i believe are con’s of clickers :

1. using all verbal markers EARLY ON (and only using markers) forces the handler to CONCENTRATE on keeping their markers consistent and also helps STOP them from using distraction talk while working with their dog (by forcing them to use markers ONLY). by eliminating or greatly diminishing the “background noise” i firmly believe this makes any drill MUCH clearer to the dog. making the verbals consistent helps take the emtions out of the training drill; which also helps the dog since they respond to emotion and other body languages as much as sounds and new trainers neither realize it nor are they aware of it. they simply talk too much and the dog learns to tune it out. ime, the LESS the dog has to ignore, the MORE meaning the markers will have to the dog. the clicker removes what i consider one of the most important markers — the “YES, THAT”S what i wanted” (which MANY have trouble delivering in a consistent voice //lol//
2. if a handler tries to train in different situations in different environments, there will DEFINITELY be times when they don’t have a clicker on them, and sometimes the best time to train is to take advantage of an opportunity when it presents itself. Murphy’s law applies 
3. the inconvenience factor : some drills require both hands, or one on a lead and one luring, etc etc etc…..and that makes it harder to handle the clicker too. before you say it’s easy, in my experience not all handlers have those coordination skills “out of the box” and even have difficulty learning how to use a lead properly //lol//
4. all clicker use must be faded sooner or later for obvious reasons. since many dogs have been trained very well without them, why start out using a tool that prevents a verbal marker from being learned properly (consistency of the sound) and can only be used for one type of mark ?
5. the people i have observed who DO use a lot of clickers generally do not use many other verbal markers with any level of consistency, which for me, is a non starter

but of course that’s just me….ymwv 

Thanks Lee 
i'll get back to ya soon i hope .... gotta few things i wanna run past you


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## Sarah Platts

Rick,


Good points. I'm not sure what the obvious reasons are for fading out a clicker but I never fade out the clicker. I may not use it all the time but it's used throughout the dog's life. I use verbal markers along with the clicker but verbals aren't faded out either. Both are a method of communication and I'm all in favor of keeping all the lanes open that I can.


Using a clicker while trying to use both hands can sometimes be a PITA but its really a coordination issue. Or you can use someone else to click if necessary.


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## Bob Scott

Sarah Platts said:


> Rick,
> 
> 
> Good points. I'm not sure what the obvious reasons are for fading out a clicker but I never fade out the clicker. I may not use it all the time but it's used throughout the dog's life. I use verbal markers along with the clicker but verbals aren't faded out either. Both are a method of communication and I'm all in favor of keeping all the lanes open that I can.
> 
> 
> Using a clicker while trying to use both hands can sometimes be a PITA but its really a coordination issue. Or you can use someone else to click if necessary.



Good post.

No matter what the training method be it correction, clicker, vocal marker or all will always require the occasional reward or correction in order to keep the dog engaged.

I always express this as random reward.

To constantly use the Marker or a correction will eventually create a situation where the dog is dependent on the marker or correction and the whole behavior can start to fall apart if for any reason that marker or correction is discontinued totally.


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## sefi sahar

hi all...
good to read from you all.
Lee i send you strength!

Howard my tip for you is to work with the dog yourself on low profile that way the wife might enjoy him better...

leslie good photo!! 

its good to read about you all and your holiday days, plans and progress...
Sarah, Misty, Phil, khoi, Bob, Connie and all.
stay in touch.



as for me i am on a mission of sort. on a remote terrain with Tara. for now its a challanging standby, very bad dry food, very cold , mostly waiting for the action moment to happen.
cant get on the net as much as i wish. about my training i am at some gear berrier i will make a post about it. maybe the forum members can help.

Nicole great post it is...
good idea!

all the best you all...


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## rick smith

i probably posted on the wrong thread but regarding Sarah's Q on fading the clicker

granted, training never stops throughout the life of the dog....i only meant it in regards to training a behavior vs the trained behavior

i doubt a clicker will be brought to a PSA/IPO trial, when LE or MWD handlers start their shift, or considered part of the SAR kit. these are the times we need the dog to react promptly and correctly to verbals ... when the rubber meets the road
- doesn't mean verbal markers can't or won't be used during those times; just that a clicker probably won't be there but the verbals will

- to look at it in another way ... when finishing a specific behavior you might actually be able to still use the same verbal marker rather than a new word conditioned for that behavior
- example : the grip and the out.......when teaching i would use "good" and "yes" and eventually shift sounds from 'yes' to 'out'. but you could still use 'yes' to release and get another bite

kinda like the dog thinking vs reacting.
i'd like to think it's always thinking, but my end goal is neither 
when training you give the dog an option, or many options, but only reward what YOU want. the dog is thinking and reacting based on the consequences, whether it's a food reward being withheld or an aversive that will be applied if compliance is delayed (electric or lead jerk, etc)

my end goal to any trained behavior is that the dog no longer "thinks" or "reacts". it simply DOES what is asked because it's been hardwired through good training
- example : if you're doing PSA and you send the dog, how much time does it have to "think" or "react" when you call it off ? i say almost none  
- maybe Khoi might have a different opinion.....i'd like to hear his take too

sorry, getting far off from the clicker topic, but these topics interest me a lot and never seem to get discussed enough

been too cold and sick to do much these days and spent my BD in bed last week :-(
...so happy holidays to everyone celebrating them and bah humbug for the rest of us //lol//


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## Sarah Platts

rick smith said:


> my end goal to any trained behavior is that the dog no longer "thinks" or "reacts". it simply DOES what is asked because it's been hardwired through good training
> - example : if you're doing PSA and you send the dog, how much time does it have to "think" or "react" when you call it off ? i say almost none


Ah, I get it. This is something of the mindset of the LE or MWD folks. Very, very necessary with bite trained dogs. Maybe it's just me, but I don't want a dog just blindly doing something. Everyone is getting good training, they know the odor, etc. However, I want a dog that willing to disobey me if the situation calls for it. Does this mean the dog gets a free pass for everything? No, but if the normally willing worker stops or changes up something or flat out refuses then it's normally for a very good reason. They want to comply but not under whatever circumstances are present. In almost every occasion, I have seconded the dog's actions and had to do a workaround. 


For instance, it's not unknown for the FEMA trained dogs to jump off of towers or through upper story windows to following scent. I want my dogs to stop, give me a look that I'm frigging crazy that I want them to take a leap of 40 ft to the ground. I want them to stop, alert me to the problem so we can come up with a workaround if necessary if they can't come up with one of their own. I don't want a robot that does only what I say and when I say it. I want a dog that is an equal partner and making decisions over the tasking. 


Just my opinion.


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## Bob Scott

Rick your correct on the clicker being clearer to the dog. I found that so in the beginning but switching to verbal marker is just a matter of a few times with a dog that understands marker work. 

Marker work is much more accetable then it was when I starter with it in Schutzhund 12-13 yrs ago. 

I still do both but predominantly verbal since I'm not always carrying a clicker when I want to work my dog. 

Like anything else in training we learn to be consistent with our vocal marker.


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## Lee H Sternberg

Thanks everyone for the good thoughts. It really does help.


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## sefi sahar

please stay tuned and keep us updated


Lee H Sternberg said:


> Thanks everyone for the good thoughts. It really does help.


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## Nicole Stark

So glad to hear updates from everyone! All very interesting reads and it's great to hear some of the different things going on with our members.


Lee, thanks for resurfacing and I hope you visit as much as you can. We miss your presence here.


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## Sarah Platts

Lee, What Nicole said.


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## Bob Scott

*Nicole* - what the hell is wrong with you? Why do you amuse yourself in such sophomoric ways? ANSWER: unintelligible.


:lol: Nicole, your dog knowledge, skills and yes, well timed stabs :lol: have been a a HUGE help in keeping the WDF going.

Thank YOU for starting this post! :wink:


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## Lee H Sternberg

Nicole Stark said:


> So glad to hear updates from everyone! All very interesting reads and it's great to hear some of the different things going on with our members.
> 
> 
> Lee, thanks for resurfacing and I hope you visit as much as you can. We miss your presence here.


Almost didn't make it


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## Lee H Sternberg

Nicole Stark said:


> So glad to hear updates from everyone! All very interesting reads and it's great to hear some of the different things going on with our members.
> 
> 
> Lee, thanks for resurfacing and I hope you visit as much as you can. We miss your presence here.


I forgot my password. Bad move!

First of all evidently the new owners are from the Canadian, Yukon Territory somewhere. I don't speak Canadian which might be part of the problem. Added to that I'm a computer illiterate and a old MOFO.

Then they send some FukAss password with letters and symbols plus capital letters count. After 4 tries I finally got in.

H - E- L - L - O this is a dog forum not Fort Knox


WTF!!!


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## leslie cassian

You can just copy and paste the new password from the email to the forum.
Makes it a whole lot easier.


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## Connie Sutherland

sefi sahar said:


> please stay tuned and keep us updated


 _(This was to Lee)_

Ditto from me.



Ditto to this, too*:*
_You can just copy and paste the new password from the email to the forum.
Makes it a whole lot easier._


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## Edward S Weiss

Down to just one Airedale now,lost my boy Brisco at 15 1/2 this summer.
Kasbah is now in full hunting mode,and look forward in Spring to continue HRC retrieving.
Considering a new pup out of her daughter in New Hampshire and an Airedale that was cover dog for Dog Sports magazine 2 months back.
The male is an accomplished upland and retrieving Airedale, dominant but with a little more laid back temperament.Could be a neat cross.


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## Bob Scott

So sorry for your loss of Brisco.

At 15 1/2 he had a great run.

Saw you both at a Schutzhund trial at Tom Rose's farm some yrs ago. 

The new combo sounds super.

Be sure and keep us up on that when it happens!


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## Nicole Stark

I'm sorry to hear that about Brisco. 15 1/2 is a good long stretch, do they normally go that long?


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## Edward S Weiss

10 to 12 1/2 is the usual.
Whole family misses him...took him to his first trial at age 15 months when Airedale Nationals were held in town.
I entered him ina racoon trailing trial,and after the first 12 dogs failed thought there was no chance.Went to starting line released hm he looked back at me and then took off. 10 minutes later we heard him baying at the caged racoon that had been suspended in a tree..couldnt believe it!
Fom there he got VPG 3 FH 1 Master Retriever...
Swam like a fish,helluva pheasant hunter, and even let him try PSA at age 10.





d


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## Bob Scott

Very nice.

It takes a special flushing dog to hunt pheasant. 

The pointing breeds can easily loose a bird.


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## Nicole Stark

I had a strange revelation that I wanted to share. I figure it's something a few of you could relate to.

Tonight I came back to read through this thread and the last comment about pheasant flushing reminded me of the first time I ever saw a dog do that. It was my first dog, a Pit Bull. I had forgotten, or maybe it's that I never knew until now, it was that very moment and event that got me interested in scent related work with dogs. 

Not long after that somehow I befriended a wild pheasant. I became so familiar with the bird that I named him and I could go out into the woods and on to the cornfield where I'd pheasant call him. Sure enough he'd come flying in and hang out for a while. Rick for whatever reason that kind of reminds me of that cat you bring up from time to time.

Anyway, as I was driving home from work today I saw a couple walking two dogs, one an Aussie, the other a Lab. I saw the Lab drop her head and start working an area. The moment I saw her behavior change the coolest feeling overcame me as I watched her. It was a peaceful easy feeling, and I think it's one of the best feelings there is to be had. 

I don't think I will ever lose my fascination with watching dogs work scent/odor. At least, I hope that I never do.


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## Meg O'Donovan

"I don't think I will ever lose my fascination with watching dogs work scent/odor." 
Me too. 
Wishing you all the best in 2018!


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## Khoi Pham

So you like hunting dog heh? check out this pict I took hunting behind some pointer.


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## Bob Scott

Meg O'Donovan said:


> "I don't think I will ever lose my fascination with watching dogs work scent/odor."
> Me too.
> Wishing you all the best in 2018!



I think it's a gene that some of us were just born with.  :lol:


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## Bob Scott

Khoi Pham said:


> So you like hunting dog heh? check out this pict I took hunting behind some pointer.



Beautifull shot Khoi. 

Looks like a working line English Setter. 

No to many of the Setters seen in the bird dog world anymore.


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## Matt Vandart

Hello 

Bumpy died, which sucked, well technically I killed her, which sucked even more.
Kath is coming home tomorrow 
She got pneumonia after her operation and has been ****ed since 25th October.
All the other dogs are cool and the gang, been sorting out Indies hecticness and Rosie is coming along nicely. Her herding is progressing slowly and I am currently doing a foundation for object guard with her.

Lee, dude,


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## Khoi Pham

Bob Scott said:


> Beautifull shot Khoi.
> 
> Looks like a working line English Setter.
> 
> No to many of the Setters seen in the bird dog world anymore.


Thanks, it was taken with a 1968 Minolta lens. My friend is a guide, and he was training the pup, I'm there to help shoot the birds lol


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## Bob Scott

Matt Vandart said:


> Hello
> 
> Bumpy died, which sucked, well technically I killed her, which sucked even more.
> Kath is coming home tomorrow
> She got pneumonia after her operation and has been ****ed since 25th October.
> All the other dogs are cool and the gang, been sorting out Indies hecticness and Rosie is coming along nicely. Her herding is progressing slowly and I am currently doing a foundation for object guard with her.
> 
> Lee, dude,



Sucks about Bumpy!

I was the cause of my loosing three dogs some 45+ yrs ago with antifreeze in my early gearhead days.

Didn't realize the stuff was like Koolaid to dogs. 

It was on my oldest daughter's 5th Bday and it still haunts me every Bday of that daughter.


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## Bob Scott

Khoi Pham said:


> Thanks, it was taken with a 1968 Minolta lens. My friend is a guide, and he was training the pup, I'm there to help shoot the birds lol



Shooting with the Minolta or the gun? :lol:

I still have my old Minolta SRT 101 and a number of lenses from yrs ago.

Haven't used it in yrs with all the new digital stuff out there.


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## Khoi Pham

I'm using a new Sony camera but using the old vintage Minolta lens on it, love the old lens.


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## Nicole Stark

Meg O'Donovan said:


> "I don't think I will ever lose my fascination with watching dogs work scent/odor."
> Me too.
> Wishing you all the best in 2018!


Meg! My goodness how could I forget from my list my Vetiver sister in Canada! I hope things are well with you and your family/dogs.



Khoi Pham said:


> So you like hunting dog heh? check out this pict I took hunting behind some pointer.


Yes, I do. I am kicking around a bit in a big game hound forum. Though I am starting to realize that at least with hounds that too high of a level of speciality may not be an ideal fit for me. The area where my place in the woods is ridiculously saturated with bear right now. 

Willow's presence lessened over the summer as her health declined and then she was gone. After that those ****ers moved in fast and started trying to get into the building. I'm talking a literal push in on the front door. Had it not been locked he would have made it in. That experience made quite an impression on the Dutch though and I think she's going to be better balanced out there.

The thing with that bear is 5 shots in his direction to send him off did nothing, after the first two instead of retreating he advanced. Three more with the last into the ground before him sent him away but at a pace that made me think this bear could be a serious problem. 



Matt Vandart said:


> Hello
> 
> Bumpy died, which sucked, well technically I killed her, which sucked even more.
> Kath is coming home tomorrow
> She got pneumonia after her operation and has been ****ed since 25th October.
> All the other dogs are cool and the gang, been sorting out Indies hecticness and Rosie is coming along nicely. Her herding is progressing slowly and I am currently doing a foundation for object guard with her.


Matt, I'm sorry to hear that Bumpy died. By killing do you mean euthanized or did something else happen?

I am glad to hear Kath is doing better. Pneumonia is serious business for those post surgery/long illness, I am extremely grateful to hear she is coming home.

How are you approaching Indies hecticness? What do you attribute that to? Early experiences in training/imprinting or genetics? How is that other rehomed pup doing? 



Khoi Pham said:


> Thanks, it was taken with a 1968 Minolta lens. My friend is a guide, and he was training the pup, I'm there to help shoot the birds lol


Do you hunt? That's a lovely picture by the way. I'd be interested in seeing some of your favorite shots. Also I didn't realize that those older lenses were interchangeable with new technology. What's the difference?



Bob Scott said:


> I was the cause of my loosing three dogs some 45+ yrs ago with antifreeze in my early gearhead days.
> 
> Didn't realize the stuff was like Koolaid to dogs.
> 
> It was on my oldest daughter's 5th Bday and it still haunts me every Bday of that daughter.


Man that sucks. Funny how experiences like that will stay with you years later. On the big game forum there was a topic about bitches killing their pups. I don't bring this up much but the Pit I mentioned earlier, I had her bred. Imagine undertaking this at 12 years old. I had two mentors, one of which had the stud and I learned everything I could. Or so I thought...

She had her pups, 6 of them and much like I do with things today I documented everything. After she had settled in I let her rest and I got some sleep as well. My dad woke me in a panic something was wrong with the puppies. I can still remember the sound they were making, at least the ones that were still living. She had crushed the skulls of the pups. We took them to the vet and the owner of the stud stepped in for the two that survived. At 8 weeks he had to euthanize them both.

Never again would I even give consideration to breeding. I somehow felt like what happened was my fault. I didn't even know that could happen. Had I, I would have never left her alone with them. Even still, she may have been inclined to do it at a later point. 

It took reading about the experiences from these houndsmen to realize there's nothing I could have done to prevent that. Once I understood this was just one of those things that happened, I was able to finally let go of the guilt I carried all those years.


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## Matt Vandart

Yes Euthanized, it was very sad, she was still 100% with the program but the tumour on her belly had grown to the size of a grapefruit and she had started eating it.
Re-homed pup is doing awesome he's gonna be a future UK agility star.

Kath is home but still ****ed.

English bull terriers regularly kill whole litters often by just being clowns and doing zoomies in the box. My buddy that breeds EBT's, she has to stay with the pups basically 24/7 till they are separated from the mother.


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## Connie Sutherland

Oh, Matt, I'm so sorry about your loss. (But also so glad that she had you to help her when she needed you.)


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## Khoi Pham

Always sad to have to put a dog down. Nicole yes I like to hunt. You can use an old lens with the new camera, they make adapters for the old mount to a new camera, but you would have to shoot everything in manual.


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## Bob Scott

Did not know that about the new cameras and old lenses.

I still have a 75/200 telephoto, a wide angle and a 2x extender.

Gonna have to give that some thought although I RARELY take any pics any more.


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## David Ruby

I know this is an old thread, but, what the hell...

I'm still between dogs, but...I expect to get a pup early next year. If a breeding goes as planned, I'll probably have a pup in late winter/early spring 2019. If not, there are certain other breeders I am interested in. As some of you may know, I spent some time researching all my options and there are a few (radically different in some cases) ways I could have gone, but I'm excited about the breeding coming up. I can elaborate as little or as much on that as any of you care to read.

Mostly though, I'm just here checking in on everybody and getting excited about my pending arrival.

-Cheers


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## Connie Sutherland

David Ruby said:


> I know this is an old thread, but, what the hell...
> 
> I'm still between dogs, but...I expect to get a pup early next year. If a breeding goes as planned, I'll probably have a pup in late winter/early spring 2019. If not, there are certain other breeders I am interested in. As some of you may know, I spent some time researching all my options and there are a few (radically different in some cases) ways I could have gone, but I'm excited about the breeding coming up. I can elaborate as little or as much on that as any of you care to read.
> 
> Mostly though, I'm just here checking in on everybody and getting excited about my pending arrival.
> 
> -Cheers



That IS exciting!


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## Howard Knauf

+1 ........


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## Lee H Sternberg

I'm here and back with stupid ass threads that have zero to do with working dogs. That's me.....always bucking the system.

I guess I could always do the Face Book crap but I have political reasons to stay off that shit.

So I hang out here once in a while.

So we know this forum isn't what it used to be. The moderators can actually go away for the weekend with no threats of bodily harm between fightinging members.

Kinda sad!!

I miss the old days.....maybe because I'm so sweet no one came after me.


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## David Ruby

Lee H Sternberg said:


> I'm here and back with stupid ass threads that have zero to do with working dogs. That's me.....always bucking the system.


Then forgive me for asking, how are your dogs doing? How was the adjustment after losing your voice? I recall part of that, but it's been a while.

Also, I for one like said stupid ass threads. I mean, I like the working dog stuff too, but there can be a balance.  I also enjoy catching up with the folks here. It may be a bit fluffy, but I like a sense of community and enjoy hearing how people are doing.


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## Lee H Sternberg

Hey David, how are you doing? I gotta mention this David because we got a bunch of new member and I'm so thankful to you. David is a medical librarian. While I was going through my personal medical mess. David helped me out with information when I had some medical questions.

I don't remember if I ever mentioned it on the forum but when I first came home from the hospital my male Dutchie wouldn't come up to me. When I approached him he would back away.

That just lasted for a hour but he seemed recognize something was different.

After that I had one of those horrid battery controlled vibrating speech devices so I could communicate with dogs and family. I couldn't speak on the phone or in public because no one could understand me. 

I lost my independence and I'm not the kind of dude that deals well with that kind of stuff. It's a good thing I dont need that thing any more because I mentally could not deal with it.

After I healed up they did another procedure and installed a speech device into the esophagus. That sounds like you woke up in the morning with the worst cold and hangover of your life on the same day.

That was a long winded way of saying I'm back kicking dog ass again.

I finally gained back my independence and I'm eternally grateful someone invented this thing. I have to hold my finger over the hole in my neck to force the air through the speech device but I can speak to anyone anywhere including on the phone.


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## Bob Scott

David, a new pup is always something to look forward to. 



I still have one old GSD, Trooper but I think I'm good for one more! :wink:


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## David Ruby

Bob Scott said:


> David, a new pup is always something to look forward to.
> 
> I still have one old GSD, Trooper but I think I'm good for one more! :wink:


Hey Bob, I'm getting an American Bulldog from the same breeder as my last one, Ellie. The male was probably the best overall dog she's bred, and the female is a drivey, drivey dog. She'd have made a great sport dog, and I really love her. Lots of drive, lots of character. But it's a line of dogs I've known for decades now, and this is the most excited I've been about for one of her breedings. If you've ever felt like something was practically pre-ordained, this is kind of how it feels.

Here's the weird thing. If that breeding somehow didn't go through, here are my alternates in no particular order:

Malinois. It would have to be the right one, and I'd be planning a lot more (and I mean a LOT more) to give it enough exercise and mental stimulation. But part of me wants an old school dog from Debbie Skinner. I've met three of her dogs and loved them. I usually really admire Malinois. These dogs I would have thrown in the passenger seat and been happy to own. But I would only get one if I had a specific sport lined up for it and with the understanding that I would be committing a huge chunk of time daily to do stuff with it. Which sounds more exciting to me now than it did when I first learned what a high-drive Malinois looked like! 

Reisenschnauzer. I like Garrett DeMarko Ferguson and his Giant Schnauzers. Those would make a lot of sense and Leri Hanson talking about her Schnauzer got me intrigued. I got to meet Garrett and his dogs briefly and really liked the man and his dogs.

Airedale. I like terriers, they seem fun! I don't hunt (nothing against it, and I love wild game, I just don't at this point), so the Schnauzer may be a better fit, but Airedales sound like a dog I'd love to own and live with.

American Pit Bull Terrier. Love the breed, would be happy as a clam to have a nice one. I know of some great working breeders and could easily fall in with an APBT and train the shit out of it.

Oh, down the road I have my heart set on a Border Terrier. I got to see a barn hunt this summer. I would love to do Rally, OB, and barn hunt with one of those guys!

As it stands, I have my heart set on the AB breeding. But the thing with researching a bunch of different breeds and actually getting a sense of who breeds something you would like is that, for me at least, I could go several different ways, or end up with a hyuge freaking herd of dogs. So my plan is the Bulldog, but I love dogs. Any of the above list, quite honestly, would be a lot of fun.


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## Lee H Sternberg

Here's my recommendation, David. Quit your job! Buy a new place with a dog kennel out back. 

And then buy every fuking one of those dogs you want because life if short. 

I learned a long time ago that self gratification is excusable is you're cool.


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## David Ruby

Hey Lee! Couple things...



Lee H Sternberg said:


> Hey David, how are you doing? I gotta mention this David because we got a bunch of new member and I'm so thankful to you. David is a medical librarian. While I was going through my personal medical mess. David helped me out with information when I had some medical questions.


You are very kind. Of course I remember it differently. The deal was, I provide you with the best information I've got and you stay alive so you can keep living the life and posting with those amazing stories so we can live vicariously through you. Deal?! :mrgreen:

Kidding aside, I was (and am) happy to help out in any way I am able. Glad it worked out as well as it did.

As for the other thing...



Lee H Sternberg said:


> Here's my recommendation, David. Quit your job! Buy a new place with a dog kennel out back.
> 
> And then buy every fuking one of those dogs you want because life if short.
> 
> I learned a long time ago that self gratification is excusable is you're cool.


Maybe eventually. There are three reasons I won't do that now.

1. I would be better off getting one dog for now and training the **** out of it. That's my feeling. My next pooch, I've got big plans for! So, even though I'd love all of the above, it's more about quality not quantity.

2. I don't want a divorce! If I did that, at least right now, my wife would not be happy and I do want to balance my fantasies with what is right for my wife and kids (although the kids would probably ****ing love it!). But especially if/when I get a high-drive dog, adding like three or four more (especially right away) would probably be a bit much.

3. Beyond the dog training and day-job stuff, I am growing my business. That's what's taking most of my time. The dog stuff is fun. Buying every one of those dogs right now would compromise too much for me at the moment. And I think getting my business rolling will help me help others and do some pretty cool stuff in the process!

Eventually though...I would like one of each, thank you very much. 

But please don't think I'm disregarding your advice. Life is short and precious. I am hardly the first or only person who has lost important people in my life. I am fully planning on squeezing as much out of life as I can, and doing whatever I can to enrich the lives of those around me. Also, in addition to finding your stories amusing and the fact that I enjoy chatting with you, I do find a lot of wisdom in what you say. That is not just a line, I do take your words with a lot of weight and consideration. So I appreciate the wisdom. I expect to keep busy with the pup, and we'll see how it pans out. But, thank you. Not to be redundant, I really do appreciate your advice and chats, and I am more than a little pleased to have been of any help in your ordeals.


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## Bob Scott

David, hard to disagree with lee on that. :lol: 



I've had two Mals for a very short time. 

I know there are good/great ones out there but just not my cup of tea. To many environmental issues with to many of them. JMHO of course! :wink:

I was looking for a good Dale before I got my first GSD but, at that time I just didn't know of any good ones.
Don't know a lot about the GS other then some of the older ones I've seen from working lines were pretty badass. Even that's been a long time ago. 

In my family we've had a couple of excellent ABPTs. Grate for sport and family, easy to train. Happy with the world! 

I've had two Border terriers and that could be my next dog because I wants something in the house. Been a few yrs for that.
The club I belonged to had a couple pretty nice ABs. It seems they have a serious HD issue in the breed. 

Brother just had his old Presa put down in the past year. Very cool dog! A number of very nice ones on my old club.


LOVE the German Shedders but the shedding would get me killed if I kept one in the house.  :lol:


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## David Ruby

Bob Scott said:


> David, hard to disagree with lee on that. :lol:


Yeah, he makes good points. Wisdom must come with age. :mrgreen:



Bob Scott said:


> I've had two Mals for a very short time.
> 
> I know there are good/great ones out there but just not my cup of tea. To many environmental issues with to many of them. JMHO of course! :wink:


Most of them I agree with. Hell, maybe all of them. I just happened to gel enough with Debbie's dogs to give it serious consideration IF there was a legitimate task for them. Otherwise, it would be a waste.

But, hard to disagree with you on any of the rest. Presa were interesting, they were a maybe. ABs and APBTs just seem a bit more social. I also tend to think smaller dogs live longer, and be a bit more agile. Most of it is I just happen to know some people whose ABs are my cup of tea. They fit me, I guess. I also know some people breeding nice APBTs, so I could find one that fit me as well. If I didn't know these ABs so well, I would probably be leery of health problems and breeding for type.

With the right Presa, I would probably love one though. I can appreciate quite a range of breeds. The only Presa breeder I really know in the States is Red Star, and I had heard that J7 was supposed to be good. But, I haven't looked for a while.

If you ever get a chance to meet Garrett or his dogs, I think they're worth a look.

That rambling aside, thanks for the input. Always appreciated!


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## Lee H Sternberg

I dont know how much wisdom, David. But I do think I did enough "living" in my lifetime for 5 normal people. 

The party hard lifestyle treated me pretty well until recently.


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## Bob Scott

David Ruby said:


> Yeah, he makes good points. Wisdom must come with age. :mrgreen:
> 
> 
> 
> Most of them I agree with. Hell, maybe all of them. I just happened to gel enough with Debbie's dogs to give it serious consideration IF there was a legitimate task for them. Otherwise, it would be a waste.
> 
> But, hard to disagree with you on any of the rest. Presa were interesting, they were a maybe. ABs and APBTs just seem a bit more social. I also tend to think smaller dogs live longer, and be a bit more agile. Most of it is I just happen to know some people whose ABs are my cup of tea. They fit me, I guess. I also know some people breeding nice APBTs, so I could find one that fit me as well. If I didn't know these ABs so well, I would probably be leery of health problems and breeding for type.
> 
> With the right Presa, I would probably love one though. I can appreciate quite a range of breeds. The only Presa breeder I really know in the States is Red Star, and I had heard that J7 was supposed to be good. But, I haven't looked for a while.
> 
> If you ever get a chance to meet Garrett or his dogs, I think they're worth a look.
> 
> That rambling aside, thanks for the input. Always appreciated!











I know an outstanding Presa breeder in Illinois if your considering one.


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## David Ruby

Bob Scott said:


> I know an outstanding Presa breeder in Illinois if your considering one.


I'd love to know about said outstanding breeder, yes. If it goes through I'm in for the American Bulldog, but if not an outstanding Presa would be pretty damn appealing!


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## Edward S Weiss

> Airedales were excluded beginning this year from participating.
> Dunno...two other German or half German Dales were doing great, one had already compleated intermediate level...
> Politics?



That's racist. 


Seriously...why? What good reason did they give?


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## Bob Scott

Hey Ed!


David, Ed is DA MAN with Dales if you still see one in your future!


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## Edward S Weiss

Really haven’t heard an explanation on why Airedales were excluded,its been suggested too few were competing..dunno
As far as Giant Schnauzers,have a bit of expreience,helped found the WSF..Working Schnauzer Federation...at that time had a great dog Falk’s Country Life Magic,who I believe became first US GS Sch 3.

Certain similarities between Giants and Dales 
Very low if any shedding.
Both need to be stripped or trimmed or get too much coat.
GS 4+ territorial Airedale 3+
GS shorter lived 
GS less active 
Airedale prey monster...balls, cats , pheasants, racoons etc
Giant more herding type ie Bouvier 
My Giants were somewhat sharp
Airedales not so much but verrrrry dominant and once engaged total Bada**!


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## David Ruby

Bob Scott said:


> David, Ed is DA MAN with Dales if you still see one in your future!


Hey Bob, yes, I think Ed and I have talked briefly some ways back. And yes, they are on my (reasonably short) list.



Edward S Weiss said:


> Really haven’t heard an explanation on why Airedales were excluded,its been suggested too few were competing..dunno
> As far as Giant Schnauzers,have a bit of expreience,helped found the WSF..Working Schnauzer Federation...at that time had a great dog Falk’s Country Life Magic,who I believe became first US GS Sch 3.
> 
> Certain similarities between Giants and Dales
> Very low if any shedding.
> Both need to be stripped or trimmed or get too much coat.
> GS 4+ territorial Airedale 3+
> GS shorter lived
> GS less active
> Airedale prey monster...balls, cats , pheasants, racoons etc
> Giant more herding type ie Bouvier
> My Giants were somewhat sharp
> Airedales not so much but verrrrry dominant and once engaged total Bada**!


Hey Ed, nice breakdown. For me, one consideration is I don't need the hunt drive of an Airedale. However, I also love the relatively few Terriers I've met. I like longer-living breeds (I'm selfish, I hate living through my pets dying and would like to avoid going through that any more than absolutely necessary), and think an Airedale would just be a cool dog to live with and work. To be honest, the "not so (sharp) but verrrrry dominant and once engaged total Bada**!" sounds like it could be useful and fun to work with provided you had the right training, outlet, and mindset for/with the dog. Those are traits in Terriers I have sort of grown to appreciate in my old(er) age. Maybe I'm nuts, but that description warms my heart a bit.

Semi-relevant aside, several years ago I heard there was a Mondio Ring 3 Airedale. From what I heard it wasn't as clean a performer as the upper-echelon Malinois, of course, however that's pretty damn impressive!


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## Edward S Weiss

Hope this works...vid the litter brother of my girl in 2017 KLSP...Nationl VPG German Airedale Competition

https://en.working-dog.com/movie/watch/34b2c8c64d58d9e0d17485db07dac2a7


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## Bob Scott

David, over the past 60 yrs I've owned Rat terrier, Kerry Blue Terriers, Border Terriers, JRT, Norwich Terrier, White English Bull Terriers, PBT and assorted terrier crosses. 



If I knew Ed before I got my first GSD I would definitely have added a Dale to that list.


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