# What's your diagnosis on this pup?



## Brent Dell

A buddy is currently training a pup for as long term goal to compete in Schutzhund but is having some issues. Having been given some input from others it has now come to a point where he deciding seriously whether it should re-homed and he should start fresh again.

What's your diagnosis on this pup? 

The Facts:

1. Male working Line GSD 10 months old.

2. Taken from litter when 10 weeks old.

3. Medum drive levels

4. As a pup it was submissive and did not like or recover well from loud noises. On a number of occasions when something occurred he would want run to the car and jump back in.
4.(a)Took 2 weeks of trying before he would go near a plastic bottle with stones rattling about in it!

5. Has a very soft mouth. Training has slowly progressed to bite work and a decoy using long tug roll tied on a line while handler acts as post. After catching the tug and a counter (good grip with pull back) the dog runs in circle. 
5.(a)- Confidence Issues in bite work, as pup looks away and appears to become distracted when decoy is trying to tease with tug. (is this avoidence?)
5.(b)-Drops tug when running in circle unless decoy runs with dog holding line a putting tension on tug.

6- Pup also urinates frequently when verbally corrected. (particually if corrected by his girlfriend & she has little if any interaction with him on a daily basis)

7.- Pup also at times has tendancy to drop and roll on back when it becomes aware it's going to be put back in his kennel.

Any thoughts??? ...although I've already given him my answer....


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## Joby Becker

by 10 weeks of age, most of these things should have been noticeable, why take him home?

unless he really got jacked up by your buddy.


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## Shane Woodlief

The dog would have shown some of these issues at 10 weeks - so why bring him home? 
Is your friend new at picking dogs out and raising working dogs?
Also in my opinion 10 weeks is a little old to be connected still to his litter mates.

If the dog was ok and your friend (like Joby suggested) jacked him up then he should find a home for the dog and never own another dog.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Post a pedigree. Then we can see if this is working line or not.


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## Ricardo Ashton

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Post a pedigree. Then we can see if this is working line or not.


I sincerely doubt that pup is from true working lines,specifically man work. Most of those issues sounds like nerve issues. Also going by the OP's statement, that amount of submissiveness isn't a good thing for a dog in that field. [-(
I personally would dispose of it & start fresh.


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## Brent Dell

Joby Becker said:


> by 10 weeks of age, most of these things should have been noticeable, why take him home?
> 
> unless he really got jacked up by your buddy.


Thanks for the input so far. The outcome is a no-brainer really.

bt: "Jacked Up"...... do you mean he has been given severe corrections at some point? I am 99% certain he has not. All his training has been motivational thus far using food. All initial bite work was started on a rag and taken very slowly.


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## Geoff Empey

2 words for your buddy's dog ... Bye Bye ..


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## Jerry Cudahy

Everything sounds like the dog is a spook. I also from your post indicates that the people you work with are fooling you. The dog should not have been pushed.

Jacked up ..... The person who is/was acting as a helper brings more agression action to bring out more drive for the desire to bite.

Your going to need two things.

New dog and a new training group.

Neuter the dog that is spooking and even give some thought to perhaps he is not mean't for this world. He might have already been pushed into fear.

Look at it this way, you learn a valuable lesson.

Why are u asking for a buddy? Is this your dog ?


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## Brent Dell

Jerry Cudahy said:


> Everything sounds like the dog is a spook. I also from your post indicates that the people you work with are fooling you. The dog should not have been pushed.
> 
> Jacked up ..... The person who is/was acting as a helper brings more agression action to bring out more drive for the desire to bite.
> 
> Your going to need two things.
> 
> New dog and a new training group.
> 
> Neuter the dog that is spooking and even give some thought to perhaps he is not mean't for this world. He might have already been pushed into fear.
> 
> Look at it this way, you learn a valuable lesson.
> 
> Why are u asking for a buddy? Is this your dog ?


I am a member of this forum he is not. We were looking for feedback from knowlegable people here on WBF completely independant of his training circle. Thanks


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## Jerry Cudahy

Brent Dell said:


> I am a member of this forum he is not. We were looking for feedback from knowlegable people here on WBF completely independant of his training circle. Thanks


Oui, I understand.


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## leslie cassian

What are the people in his training circle telling him?

I understand trying to work with a dog to overcome issues, but it sounds to me that this dog has no heart for the work. He's very submissive (peeing, rolling over), fearful and doesn't have a lot of drive to help overcome any of this. It's like swimming upstream. Why bother? How hard does your friend want to work to try to get something out of a marginal, at best, dog? And is it worth it to put the dog through it to get there? 

Retire him or find a nice quiet home for him where he can be someone's poodle or euthanize him and get a dog from a different breeder that has what it takes to do what your friend wants.


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## Joby Becker

Brent Dell said:


> Thanks for the input so far. The outcome is a no-brainer really.
> 
> bt: "Jacked Up"...... do you mean he has been given severe corrections at some point? I am 99% certain he has not. All his training has been motivational thus far using food. All initial bite work was started on a rag and taken very slowly.


I mean MESSED up, by whatever was done. 

If he was NOT messed up by your buddy, almost all of those signs most likely could have been seen at the age of 10 weeks, so why take him home at all? 

If the guy just took the pup without taking a good look at him, why keep him this long, once these things were uncovered, which should have been almost instantaneous.


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## Don Turnipseed

The real advantage your friend will derive from this pup is that he will learn so much about working a less than even marginal dog. That is experience that he will never learn from working a good dog.....or so I have been told. Seems to be a lack of consistency here in the advice arena. Personally, he shouldn't have even taken the dog home.


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## Tanith Wheeler

I agree with what has been posted, your friend needs to get rid of this puppy - he needs neutering and rehoming asap. Also any 'decoy' work should stop NOW, a dog with nerve issues like this should not be taught any bitework - that's a lawsuit waiting to happen.

Secondly he needs someone with some experience to help him pick his next puppy.


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## Ashley Campbell

Depends on how much he likes the dog. If he likes the dog quite a bit even if it's not going to work, he'd do best just to make him a pet and start over with a new pup. If he doesn't care for the dog otherwise, time to find fluffy a new home and dear God neuter him first so nobody decides to make more of him.

I have an adult dog that's nervy (not as bad as this dog sounds though) and just has no drive for work. She's a wonderful pet though otherwise and I kept her because I really like her. I don't feel any shame for keeping a "shitter" as a pet.

I'll go with what a few others said, have someone go with him to help him pick a new pup. At 10 weeks old, it should have been fairly easy to spot a nervy puppy. I picked mine out much younger and you could already tell what kind of mentality he had - he was confident and a pushy little twerp already.


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## Ricardo Ashton

It's not always that easy to pick out a pup with serious nerve stability issues, since it's quite possible the pup could have been broken while in his new home. Some inexperienced people will sometimes traumatize a pup severely without even realizing it. This trauma can lead to the pup having issues it may not have had otherwise. A classic example is bathing a pup. Depending on how you introduce a 10 week old to bathing you can end up with either a dog that loves water,or one that will run for his very life if he sees a hose or tub.
I personally would remove this dog from bite sports. The poor animal is under enough stress as is.


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## Ashley Campbell

Trying not to go off topic, but a confident pup should take a lot more to ruin in a new home than a dog that's already a little weak nerved to begin with. If the pup can't take new things in stride already, it's not going to matter how much the new owner coddles it or treats it with kid gloves, it's already predisposed to being weak nerved?

There's a big difference in breaking a dog down by beating the ever-loving crap out of it frequently, and giving it a boot in the ass when it really screws up. A good solid dog can take the occasional boot to the ass, but even inexperience shouldn't be a drive killer or nervy dog make in an already good dog.


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## Brent Dell

Again guys, thanks for the input. 

I have seen this dog in a field environment and as soon as he's out of the car he is full of beans and on the face of it appears a very drivey and full on dog. He is very social and willing to great others around him without problem. When he see's a tug and will trying anything he can to get it. With a little frustration he then looses interest. When placed on line with decoy animating & teasing (moving laterally) he becomes distracted looks away and again appears to loose interest. Once he has been re-focused and produced a bite there is basically no real energy in his effort. 

There is a clear answer here from enveryone and although he knows the answer he wanted to try and work through these issues to see if he could make the dog more confident rather than giving up on him too early. The dog is just not suitable for this type of work.


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## Alison Grubb

My first working bred dog was similar to your friend's pup, though not as bad as what you have described. I knew in my gut by the time he was 10 weeks old that he was not going to cut it but I got all attached to him and didn't want to "give up" on him. So I spent a year and a good chunk of change trying to work him through things with very marginal improvement that would backslide periodically. I finally decided to scrap him and start over with another pup. Best decision I ever made.


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## Jerry Cudahy

Brent Dell said:


> Again guys, thanks for the input.
> 
> I have seen this dog in a field environment and as soon as he's out of the car he is full of beans and on the face of it appears a very drivey and full on dog. He is very social and willing to great others around him without problem. When he see's a tug and will trying anything he can to get it. With a little frustration he then looses interest. When placed on line with decoy animating & teasing (moving laterally) he becomes distracted looks away and again appears to loose interest. Once he has been re-focused and produced a bite there is basically no real energy in his effort.
> 
> There is a clear answer here from enveryone and although he knows the answer he wanted to try and work through these issues to see if he could make the dog more confident rather than giving up on him too early. The dog is just not suitable for this type of work.


Brent, I have a question.

Where do you live ??


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## Jerry Cudahy

Jerry Cudahy said:


> Brent, I have a question.
> 
> Where do you live ??


LOL, ubnewbine of the I got duddogitis blues

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f30/silly-things-have-scared-your-dog-19245/


I apologise if I read all this wrong but sure looks like your singh ing a song steve

Should of just answered when I asked , Whats wrong with your dog.


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## Joby Becker

Ricardo Ashton said:


> It's not always that easy to pick out a pup with serious nerve stability issues, since it's quite possible the pup could have been broken while in his new home. Some inexperienced people will sometimes traumatize a pup severely without even realizing it. This trauma can lead to the pup having issues it may not have had otherwise. A classic example is bathing a pup. Depending on how you introduce a 10 week old to bathing you can end up with either a dog that loves water,or one that will run for his very life if he sees a hose or tub.
> I personally would remove this dog from bite sports. The poor animal is under enough stress as is.


or one that wants to kill the water or hose...


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## Kadi Thingvall

Brent Dell said:


> When placed on line with decoy animating & teasing (moving laterally) he becomes distracted looks away and again appears to loose interest. Once he has been re-focused and produced a bite there is basically no real energy in his effort.


This sounds like avoidance to me, especially if the dog comes out as interested/drivey as you say. Still not recommending he keep working the dog, but sounds more like the dog is socially stable, but very sensitive, while the initial post which made him sound like a potential fear biter. Excluding the sound issues. IF your friend does decide to keep him, he needs to find someone else to work him.


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## Brian Anderson

If it were my pup we would take a walk in the woods and only I would come back. Sorry...


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## Jerry Cudahy

Brian Anderson said:


> If it were my pup we would take a walk in the woods and only I would come back. Sorry...


 A very short walk. No sense wasting time.


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## Ryan Venables

wow... unless the dog was aggressive, I don't really see a reason for putting it down.

Good thing PETA hasn't caught on to what some of the discussions are here. Obviously doesn't sound like a working dog, but doesn't sound like it should put down. 

Kind of disappointed in reading that... my opinion, just saying.

In Canada, that would open you up to criminal charges - I'm sure it would be the same in the US as well. I actually don't really discriminate from this type of act than the type of act that caught national headlines in Whistler when the company killed 100 dogs because business declined.


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## Bob Scott

Ryan Venables said:


> wow... unless the dog was aggressive, I don't really see a reason for putting it down.
> 
> Good thing PETA hasn't caught on to what some of the discussions are here. Obviously doesn't sound like a working dog, but doesn't sound like it should put down.
> 
> Kind of disappointed in reading that... my opinion, just saying.
> 
> In Canada, that would open you up to criminal charges - I'm sure it would be the same in the US as well. I actually don't really discriminate from this type of act than the type of act that caught national headlines in Whistler when the company killed 100 dogs because business declined.


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## Ashley Campbell

> In Canada, that would open you up to criminal charges - I'm sure it would be the same in the US as well. I actually don't really discriminate from this type of act than the type of act that caught national headlines in Whistler when the company killed 100 dogs because business declined.


Actually, no, it wouldn't. As long as you dispose of them humanely, in most states, it's perfectly legal to do so. A gunshot is considered humane if done correctly by the AVMA. 

Dogs are property, just like livestock as far as the law is concerned. It's not illegal to shoot your own pet cow and eat it either.


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## Bob Scott

The difference in being humane or not "if" the dog needs to be put down with a gun is accuracy.


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## Jerry Cudahy

Ryan Venables said:


> wow... unless the dog was aggressive, I don't really see a reason for putting it down.
> 
> Ryan I sent you a pm but I am not sure it was sent correctly. Let me know if you did in fact get my message.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

So did we ever get what working pedigree and the breeder? 

Terrasita


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## Brent Dell

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> So did we ever get what working pedigree and the breeder?
> 
> Terrasita


I will try and find out


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## Ryan Venables

Ashley Campbell said:


> Actually, no, it wouldn't. As long as you dispose of them humanely, in most states, it's perfectly legal to do so. A gunshot is considered humane if done correctly by the AVMA.
> 
> Dogs are property, just like livestock as far as the law is concerned. It's not illegal to shoot your own pet cow and eat it either.


Correct that animals under the common law are considered property. Incorrect that killing a dog in this situation would be permitted by CO State law.


From the CO Penal Code: 18-9-202
1.5 (a) A person commits cruelty to animals if he or she recklessly or with criminal negligence tortures, needlessly mutilates, or *needlessly kills* an animal.

(b) A person commits aggravated cruelty to animals if he or she knowingly tortures, needlessly mutilates, or *needlessly kills *an animal.

I would suggest in the incident as stated above would fall into the category of (b). Arguable as it may be to determine what needlessly means, but without going into a statutory interpretation analysis and looking into past precedent and case law, I think the safer and more humane thing to do would be to surrender the dog to your local animal shelter, and let the medically trained professionals evaluate the dog. This way, you give the dog a chance and absolve yourself of criminal liability.

That being said, it is 100% sure a criminal offence in Canada - punishable by jail for up to 5 years.


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## Ashley Campbell

Needless is subjective. I can take either of my dogs to the vet right now and watch them euthanize them legally. All it takes is a "it was acting aggressively". You don't need proof.

Our humane society is full of volunteers, not "medical professionals" either. I had a pitbull that got brought down there after I "rehomed" it because it was aggressive with my other dog. They tried to save it, after it had severely bitten someone. They called me because it was still chipped to me and I told them to euth it. It bit someone else and finally was euthed like 2-3 months later.

I should have shot the stupid thing.

Back on topic, read my reply - I suggested if it was a decent pet just to neuter it and give it away - not to take ole yeller out back.


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## Ryan Venables

Ashley Campbell said:


> Needless is subjective. I can take either of my dogs to the vet right now and watch them euthanize them legally. All it takes is a "it was acting aggressively". You don't need proof.
> 
> Our humane society is full of volunteers, not "medical professionals" either. I had a pitbull that got brought down there after I "rehomed" it because it was aggressive with my other dog. They tried to save it, after it had severely bitten someone. They called me because it was still chipped to me and I told them to euth it. It bit someone else and finally was euthed like 2-3 months later.
> 
> I should have shot the stupid thing.
> 
> Back on topic, read my reply - I suggested if it was a decent pet just to neuter it and give it away - not to take ole yeller out back.


Needlessly is not the subjective element of the offence. The subjective element of the offence lies in recklessness. i.e. Did you by your actions appreciate the risk that was involved by continuing to do what you did? If so you were reckless in your actions. It's a couple steps down from intent on the mens rea chart.

You can watch all you want, but the law draws a distinction at you doing it. That is where the difference is.

In the end, what I was talking about was the situation above and the comments above - putting a dog down because it wasn't working out for you in whatever work environment you wanted is wrong and criminal.

Putting a dog down because it's aggressive toward other dogs or children etc, is a different story.

But yes I agree, neuter it, and give it away.


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## Ashley Campbell

Oh and yeah, it happens here in CO too...

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/4343474/detail.html



> The largest tourist dog sledding operation in the United States has admitted to an Aspen, Colo., newspaper that unwanted sled dogs not given up for adoption are shot in the back of the head and buried in a pit.The practice is legal under Colorado law, even though some of the dogs that are killed are healthy, the _Aspen Daily News_ reported in its Monday editions.





> The state veterinarian's office said killing dogs by shooting them in the head is within the law, which considers an animal and individual's property that can be euthanized at any time -- provided it is done humanely.


Yes, "needless" is subjective.


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## ann schnerre

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> So did we ever get what working pedigree and the breeder?
> 
> Terrasita


T, hope you have better luck than i did; getting the breeding on the "Sch lab" resulted in, well, the ped was evidently a state secret :roll: :-k


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## Jerry Cudahy

Ryan Venables said:


> Needlessly is not the subjective element of the offence. The subjective element of the offence lies in recklessness. i.e. Did you by your actions appreciate the risk that was involved by continuing to do what you did? If so you were reckless in your actions. It's a couple steps down from intent on the mens rea chart.
> 
> You can watch all you want, but the law draws a distinction at you doing it. That is where the difference is.
> 
> In the end, what I was talking about was the situation above and the comments above - putting a dog down because it wasn't working out for you in whatever work environment you wanted is wrong and criminal.
> 
> Putting a dog down because it's aggressive toward other dogs or children etc, is a different story.
> 
> But yes I agree, neuter it, and give it away.


Ryan, could you play along with me here?

Lets say it is your dog that is not working out for whatever type of attack training, sport personal whatever. But going through bite work. The dog turns out piss poor horrible, fearful, nervous. A problem dog. 

It is yours and you were a part of the dog becoming the pos it is.

OK, you say above .... 


*But yes I agree, neuter it, and give it away.[/QUOTE]*

*Who are you going to give it to*

Your next door neighbor

What about your old aunt Mary

What about the brother in law who knows all about dogs

Humane Society

The list can be endless.

But who should get this animal? That you are giving away deemed to be a problem dog.



Who would you think should take this dog ?

Also there is an option, would you have it put down ?


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## maggie fraser

@ Jerry, has this dog been deemed a problem dog as yet ? He just sounds unsuitable for an ambitious yet unskilled handler , Doesn't sound like a danger or a problem for a pet home to me from the info posted so far. Hell who knows, it might ALL be the handler for all we know!


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## Jerry Cudahy

maggie fraser said:


> @ Jerry, has this dog been deemed a problem dog as yet ? He just sounds unsuitable for an ambitious yet unskilled handler , Doesn't sound like a danger or a problem for a pet home to me from the info posted so far. Hell who knows, it might ALL be the handler for all we know!


 
Maggie, " The poster does not even own the dog, he is being very evasive when requests about genetics , ped, breeder etc. The whole thing is bs.

Supposed to be in Sch Training and has shown up with all these nerve problems. Poor dog if it really exists has more than its sch training problems.


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## maggie fraser

Jerry Cudahy said:


> Maggie, " The poster does not even own the dog, he is being very evasive when requests about genetics , ped, breeder etc. The whole thing is bs.
> 
> Supposed to be in Sch Training and has shown up with all these nerve problems. Poor dog if it really exists has more than its sch training problems.


I agree, and is my point.

Dog's probably ok lol, handler needs looking at!


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## Ryan Venables

Jerry Cudahy said:


> Ryan, could you play along with me here?
> 
> Lets say it is your dog that is not working out for whatever type of attack training, sport personal whatever. But going through bite work. The dog turns out piss poor horrible, fearful, nervous. A problem dog.
> 
> It is yours and you were a part of the dog becoming the pos it is.
> 
> OK, you say above ....
> 
> 
> *But yes I agree, neuter it, and give it away.*




*Who are you going to give it to*

Your next door neighbor

What about your old aunt Mary

What about the brother in law who knows all about dogs

Humane Society

The list can be endless.

But who should get this animal? That you are giving away deemed to be a problem dog.



Who would you think should take this dog ?

Also there is an option, would you have it put down ?[/QUOTE]

I think the options here in Canada are fairly simple. You surrender it to the Humane Society and they can make the decision. If it has, assuming in this case the facts as described by the OP are correct, minimal bite work, there is probably less of a risk of it biting somebody than other dogs.

I don't profess to be a dog expert, but I do know the law in numerous contexts. But the dog the OP describes, again assuming it is as he describes, sounds like a pet trying to be forced into bite work, not some spun dog who just doesn't have control.

I was just saying my opinion personally, and a legal one... that is to take it out back and shooting it is wrong and culpable. I don't have the solution for the OP, I was commenting on what was said by you and the other gent.

I'm sure there are things that go on all the time and people make turn a blind eye to it, or not even care... but it doesn't make it any more or less right IMO.

I'd rather see or hear about a dog in that situation get a fighting chance to be adopted out by getting evaluated by a vet rather than taking a slug to the head.


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## Jerry Cudahy

Ryan Venables said:


> [/U][/I][/B]
> 
> *Who are you going to give it to*
> 
> Your next door neighbor
> 
> What about your old aunt Mary
> 
> What about the brother in law who knows all about dogs
> 
> Humane Society
> 
> The list can be endless.
> 
> But who should get this animal? That you are giving away deemed to be a problem dog.
> 
> 
> 
> Who would you think should take this dog ?
> 
> Also there is an option, would you have it put down ?


I think the options here in Canada are fairly simple. You surrender it to the Humane Society and they can make the decision. If it has, assuming in this case the facts as described by the OP are correct, minimal bite work, there is probably less of a risk of it biting somebody than other dogs.

I don't profess to be a dog expert, but I do know the law in numerous contexts. But the dog the OP describes, again assuming it is as he describes, sounds like a pet trying to be forced into bite work, not some spun dog who just doesn't have control.

I was just saying my opinion personally, and a legal one... that is to take it out back and shooting it is wrong and culpable. I don't have the solution for the OP, I was commenting on what was said by you and the other gent.

I'm sure there are things that go on all the time and people make turn a blind eye to it, or not even care... but it doesn't make it any more or less right IMO.

I'd rather see or hear about a dog in that situation get a fighting chance to be adopted out by getting evaluated by a vet rather than taking a slug to the head.[/QUOTE]


I would also recommend that this owner surrenders the dog to the humane society. Then they will do an Investigation. That is what happens to these situations.

Investigation sound good. Good response Ryan.


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## Kat LaPlante

Ryan Venables said:


> Correct that animals under the common law are considered property. Incorrect that killing a dog in this situation would be permitted by CO State law.
> 
> 
> From the CO Penal Code: 18-9-202
> 1.5 (a) A person commits cruelty to animals if he or she recklessly or with criminal negligence tortures, needlessly mutilates, or *needlessly kills* an animal.
> 
> (b) A person commits aggravated cruelty to animals if he or she knowingly tortures, needlessly mutilates, or *needlessly kills *an animal.
> 
> I would suggest in the incident as stated above would fall into the category of (b). Arguable as it may be to determine what needlessly means, but without going into a statutory interpretation analysis and looking into past precedent and case law, I think the safer and more humane thing to do would be to surrender the dog to your local animal shelter, and let the medically trained professionals evaluate the dog. This way, you give the dog a chance and absolve yourself of criminal liability.
> 
> That being said, it is 100% sure a criminal offence in Canada - punishable by jail for up to 5 years.


Case Law sucks. I am not advocating for the destruction of this dog, I am not even sure the situation is real. However I am an advocate of taking responsibility for the problems we buy. dosen't matter to me if it is taking "old yeller out back" or taking him to the vet. For the most part people here are not dealing with dogs that can easily be rehomed, or adopted out fairly. If we dont have an innately difficult dog then we do what we can to turn the dog into something that the general public would have a hard time handling. So I ask you, case law aside, what is the responsibillity that working dog people have to the public by owning the dogs we own? I bet the humane society would end up using the blue needle too. Pets are pets, they say a great dog is 1 in a million and a good dog is about half of that so what do you think quietly happens to some of the dogs that pepole end up with who are not good enough for sports but too much to have around little Billy and his friends?........they probably dont get adopted out to their "forever homes".


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## Brian Anderson

neuter the dog #1.... get a new dog #2 ....place the dog in a pet home or....


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