# IPO/Ring, breeds vs paces from hurdle



## Gerald Guay (Jun 15, 2010)

My Bouviers use to jump better when placed close to the hurdle. My GSDs seem to need more run up. The Mals in our club jump very high from real close. I've seen Foxhounds back up quite a bit to clear a fence. My Bouviers were square (cob), the GSD's longer in the body, with the Mals it does not seem to matter and the working foxhounds slightly longer than high. GSD and foxhounds are endurance animals (more slow twitch muscle fibers) while the Bouviers seem to be more fast twitch according to their purpose of work. The Mals seems to be a balanced mix of both types of muscle fiber.

Anybody care to comment on my experience. What breed do you have and does he/she jump higher from close or further away? Does your dog need a long run up to the jump?


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Gerald, been my experience that it is about the tailset more than anything. The higher on the back the root of the tail is, the farther back the dog has to be for a jump because the high tailset(part of the spine), rotates the hips to the rear more. This give them more of a forward push so they have to be farther back. The lower the tailset, the better the ability to jump straight up, particularily if there is a low tailset and a roach in the back. This type of structure rotates the angle of the hips forward and puts the legs more under the dog. I also noticed that with the low tailset and the roached back, it takes pups longer to gain the strength in the rear to handle it well because it takes more muscle and strength. You can take a pup built like this and push on their chest and they are much more easily pushed backwards than a pup with a high tailset and the legs giving more angled support to the rear.


----------



## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I can only speak about GSDs I have had. Some have preferred to jump from further back, some closer. My current adult male, if he gets too big a running start, tends to jump flatter, tics the top, more careless, but from closer than other dogs, he has a nice arc and clears the jump, no problemo .


----------



## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

I don't think it is as much about the breeds but much more about the individual dogs. Sure there is some generalization differences. 

My 2 dogs a son and mother pair. The mother needs a bit more distance with the hurdle so I will pace out 7 paces then place the dog at 5 and go. But the pup has much more sproing to his bounce he will clear 1.2m easily from 2-3 metres from the jump where Mom would crash it for sure. So in the beginning I am always experimenting with placement pads to find the optimum distance.


----------



## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

I wonder if it has to do more with how the jump is introduced.
A vet that did AKC OB came out to watch our SchH group. She commented that we should be teaching are young dogs to jump far first, then after awhile add height. This way the dog is use to stretching out over the jump with rear legs extended back. She claimed is also easier on the dog's body if the dog jumps in a more horizontal plane that up, over and straight down.


----------



## Sue DiCero (Sep 2, 2006)

Eddie - that is what Gabor does....


----------



## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

Edward Egan said:


> She claimed is also easier on the dog's body if the dog jumps in a more horizontal plane that up, over and straight down.


There is a whole science to jumping styles and forms. Just take a peak into the world of agility. You can spend hours dissecting and teaching a dog how to jump properly over just one jump. Any one familiar with horse jumping will know how much work can go into this if you want to do this. Setting up jumping grids, cavalettis, etc to teach a dog how to collect or stretch, how to judge take off points, power and speed, angulation of the incline... 

The distance needed for sure has to do with the dog's structure, but it also has to do with the dog's understanding of what a jump is and how to take off, bring his body over it, and land. Some dogs naturally jump flat, some natural jump high, but both can be changed and influenced through training. That style probably has a lot to do with the type of jumping the dog has done and what this has taught him. Put a flyball dog over a single high jump, they'll jump it flat. Put a dog used to single high jumps over a set of flyball jumps, they'll likely jump them high and bouncy, regardless of what they're body is structured like.


----------



## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Yes Sue, It seems most are interested in having the dog jump the meter height ASAP, when it may pay off to have the dog jumping long to imprint proper methods.


----------



## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Edward Egan said:


> Yes Sue, It seems most are interested in having the dog jump the meter height ASAP, when it may pay off to have the dog jumping long to imprint proper methods.


Huh? Most peple I know are serious about the sport and therefore very interested in having the dog jump to the best of his/her ability, and train accordingly. While one meter is certainly not difficult for most dogs, I'm not aware of too many people who rush their dogs into the meter height.


----------



## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

susan tuck said:


> Huh? Most peple I know are serious about the sport and therefore very interested in having the dog jump to the best of his/her ability, and train accordingly. While one meter is certainly not difficult for most dogs, I'm not aware of too many people who rush their dogs into the meter height.


OK Susan, maybe I worded that wrong. Most people seem to not be concerned with the mechanics of how the dog jumps, but just the end result, which is the meter height. Also your serious group is far from the norm.


----------



## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I used to, but that group is no longer training together. Once it fell apart I went ahead and made the move from So Calif to our place in Sequim, WA.. All is not lost, not by a long shot!! Looks like I might have found a very cool new group to train with, thanks to the advise of my friend and mentor, Dean. Anyways PLEASE keep your fingers crossed for me that it works out.
:-D


----------



## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

I think when it comes to sports....it is better in the long run to teach the mechanics of jumping. Yeah I know dogs naturally know how to jump but as someone already stated....teaching proper technique IMO is the key and I have yet to master this My friend and TD (Chico Stanford) did AKC OB with Rotts prior to Schutzhund and teaches his dogs with multiple low level jumps in a row when doing foundation work - spaces them a certain way and then slowly raises the jumps. I like the results from any distance - although with all of his dogs I noticed he stays a good distance from the jumps and throws the dumbbell a good distance as well. I'll have to see if I have or can obtain a picture of when they land, but from what I remember the impact when they do hit the ground does not appear to be as abrupt/hard on the front legs as a dog that arches the jumps. 

Hustler Dreadlocks Haterproof




Hustler's son - Hombre Haterproof von Stan


----------



## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

I got my fingers crossed for you Susan. Considering who your mentor is though....I have confidence your going to do very well indeed


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

The smoothest jumper in the club I belonged to was a Rottie. 
As to the tail set, most of my high tail set terriers were excellent jumpers. My 12-13 lb JRT in particular had a 6ft vertical jump and could hop up on a 5ft wall with no approach. He would just sit in front of the wall and pop up on it. When he was 15 he still had a 4ft vertical jump. Age will do that. 
My grandkids would mess with him with a flashlight and he could run up the living room wall and touch the light beam on the ceiling........till Gam (grandma) caught them doing it. :-o 8-[ 
There was my Norwich though! He could easily clear twice his shoulder height of 11 inches but he needed the run to do it. Short legs will do that.
The Kerrys, high tail set, short back and all where the smoothest. Both that I had could do it with a run or from right in front. Just depended on how fast they were going when they came to the obstacle.
One Border terrier was smooth, the other was an excellent climber.
The White Bull terrier was an awkward jumper but got the job done.

The high jump dogs in competition have it down to an art. The handlers know exactly how many paces to start the dog.


----------



## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Edward Egan said:


> I wonder if it has to do more with how the jump is introduced.
> A vet that did AKC OB came out to watch our SchH group. She commented that we should be teaching are young dogs to jump far first, then after awhile add height. This way the dog is use to stretching out over the jump with rear legs extended back. She claimed is also easier on the dog's body if the dog jumps in a more horizontal plane that up, over and straight down.
> 
> Most people seem to not be concerned with the mechanics of how the dog jumps, but just the end result, which is the meter height.


I'd have to agree with this. As with many in Ringsport when they start off their dog many gravitate towards the hurdle and spend way to much time on that one jump. First because the jump is so accessible every basic agility field has a hurdle and every Schutzhund club has a 1m hurdle too. 

Where the jump that requires a bit more technique to jump is the long jump. With the Long jump the dogs leap, stretch bounce and land naturally. 

With my female, I spent a lot of time worrying about the end result of the hurdle. When I had time and more importantly the resources to teach the long jump it was a real setback as she still really didn't know how to jump with technically structure, it was all willy nilly. This is a dog who would fly through the air 5m+ for a frisbee or a ball. But putting the structure around the long jump was a very tedious process for me with her. She is now jumping 4m+ but it was a long time coming. 

Her pup though we went backwards in the approach and taught the long jump first and he is jumping maximum for all 3 of the ringsport jumps now. We still had to play with placement distances for the hurdle and palisade but it was a lot easier doing it in the order of Long, Hurdle and then Palisade. By the time we got to the palisade with him the first time he went over it at 17-18 months we started him at 2.1m which he just went up and over like he had been doing it for years. Blip bloop up and over no fuss no muss.


----------



## Mario Fernandez (Jun 21, 2008)

Marta you hit on the nail with the dog's body structure.


----------



## Gerald Guay (Jun 15, 2010)

Thanks all for your very interesting replies. 

So to recapitulate it seems that the structure of the dog and the way the jumps are introduced to the dog are the important elements. I also presume that the motivational approach to introducing the jumping makes for a more effective jumper than the OB approach. 

If anyone ever comes across jump teaching videos from other dog sports than IPO/Ring I would be interested in having the links posted here.

Thanks again.


----------



## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

Gerald Guay said:


> Thanks all for your very interesting replies.
> 
> So to recapitulate it seems that the structure of the dog and the way the jumps are introduced to the dog are the important elements. I also presume that the motivational approach to introducing the jumping makes for a more effective jumper than the OB approach.
> 
> ...




You want learn about teaching proper jump technique to a dog, look up Susan Salo.

Here is some of what she does to teach proper take off points using stride regulators (the speed bumps) and the V poles are for indicating proper take off point to a dog that is struggling through jump grids. This is a pup beginning his foundations before ever seeing a "real" jump. It's all about regulating strides before even adding a foot of height.


----------



## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

This is my dog at a jump grid clinic. All the initial jumps he goes through are set up in order to manipulate his jump through the final jump. It's happening off camera so you can't see it but the last jump is moved a various distance away or towards the other jumps in order to regulate his strides and teach him to stretch or collect. The dog always targets a stationary target at the end of the line to encourage proper head position.

You would go through multiple sessions of doing this, changing up distances, etc all this forces the dog to think about how they approach a jump and be able to adjust for the most efficient jump instead of just hurling themselves over what's in front of them. Their technique and form improves as they get a better understanding of what their body is doing and how to control it. And you can get way more fancy then this with more exercises all with the goal of creating a single perfect jump. Agility people obsess over this as when milliseconds count and the dog goes over a large number of jumps, proper jump technique is very important (also to prevent injuries and unnecessary strain). Even if your dog only has to do one jump, you can still apply a lot of what they do to teaching it. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8efeBjKHjAo


----------



## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

[QUOTEYou would go through multiple sessions of doing this, changing up distances, etc all this forces the dog to think about how they approach a jump and be able to adjust for the most efficient jump instead of just hurling themselves over what's in front of them][/QUOTE]

sounds like a bad idea for a ring broad jump or really any ring jump. I jump my dogs and video it so I can count the strides then start drive building over a jump. I like fast long and high jumps. Speed comes with confidence.


----------



## Hans Akerbakk (Jul 1, 2008)

I find it interesting that there is so much prep to teach a dog to jump in agility, when the jump is 24 inches at maximum. I think of this as more of a hop and not a jump . Here's a 1.2 meter jump or 47.5 inch jump the key is at 35.5 inches .


----------



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Hans thats like saying the top speed of an F1 car is not that fast, it aint.


----------



## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Daniel Lybbert said:


> > You would go through multiple sessions of doing this, changing up distances, etc all this forces the dog to think about how they approach a jump and be able to adjust for the most efficient jump instead of just hurling themselves over what's in front of them
> 
> 
> sounds like a bad idea for a ring broad jump or really any ring jump. I jump my dogs and video it so I can count the strides then start drive building over a jump. I like fast long and high jumps. Speed comes with confidence.


 
I think the type of training Marta mentioned can actually be useful, even for Ring. I agree with placing the dog in the same spot each time, paying attention to their natural stride to figure out that spot, etc. Why wouldn't you give your dog every advantage you can. But at the same time I think it's good for them to learn how to jump efficiently, how to adjust their stride if needed, etc which jumping a wide variety of heights, approach distances, etc can help teach. That's the type of training that will help your dog when you put them in the same spot as usual, but they creep, or they slip when they start, or they go to the wrong spot after a hurdle/palisade and are at an angle, to close, or something else changes their normal approach in distance, speed, etc.


----------



## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Hans Akerbakk said:


> I find it interesting that there is so much prep to teach a dog to jump in agility, when the jump is 24 inches at maximum. I think of this as more of a hop and not a jump . Here's a 1.2 meter jump or 47.5 inch jump the key is at 35.5 inches .


The difference is that in Ring there is one jump, you get to set your dog where you want it, etc. In agility the dog is running the course as fast as it can, changing directions on a regular basis, and the jumps aren't all set at the same distance from each other. How a dog comes off one jump can easily effect it's approach for the next also, since it may be changing directions as soon as it hits the ground.

Can the dogs just fling themselves over the jumps due to height? Sure. But that's not how you get the fastest times with the cleanest runs, which is the goal in agility. So you want the dog to jump each jump in almost a long jump style, stretch out as they go over and almost never break stride, the more up/down they have to the jump, the less foward momentum and the slower the run.


----------



## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

I agree apples and oranges comparing ring/IPO to agility. But one can learn from the other. I'm going to concentrate and spend more time on trying to get the dog jumping properly and stretching it out. I'm not worried about speed of course, but I can see how, after the proper jump mechanics are ingrained, to mix it up a bit with different approaches.


----------



## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

I don't think you need to spend as much time on these exercises as agility folks, as Kadi mentioned those dogs need to be able to wrap, slice jumps, they're at various distances from each other, they need to be able to change lines mid jump, they're fully in control of how they approach a jump and how they take off and land.. those dogs do need a lot more jumping skills then a dog who's only doing one hurdle, but teaching proper technique is still beneficial. To say it's too much is like saying why bother proofing your dog to do a sit in a room, in a crowd, and parking lot, etc when he only has to perform it in the field. 

If you have a dog that jumps flat and constantly rubs the top of the hurdle, this is the sort of problem where you benefit from teaching the dog how to properly take off and stretch over that jump. And that is accomplished by sending the dog through multiple sets of jumps that force him to learn how to adjust strides, take off points, etc. Think about it as if you were going to jump over a single low jump, it's not hard and you don't have to think much about it. You can jump over that jump a 100 times and not much will change. But try running and jumping over a row of lets say 10 of those jumps, by the time you get to the 3rd one you need to fire up your brain or else you'll trip and by the time you get to the 9th jump you're really thinking about where you place your feet and how you lift them off the ground as the smallest screw up only gets multiplied and carried over to each consecutive jump. 

Comparing the heights of the jump doesn't really apply either because it's the principles of jumping that you're teaching. Going back to horse jumping, you start horses off over tiny things they can step over if they wanted to but there is tons of value in teaching proper foot work before ever adding height, and those horses do eventually see monumental heights. But you can't teach foundations at competition heights or speeds.


----------



## Tony Hahn (May 28, 2011)

Interesting topic. I suspect technique is more significant than body structure in regards to the set-up distance. 

My GSD wasn't the greatest jumper, but she did OK. She seemed to prefer starting her jump a moderate distance away. Currently I have a Dobermann. He's capable of some pretty impressive running jumps in general. When it comes to a Schutzhund jump though, if you position him close he just kind of hops over it. If you position him back a ways, more often than not he will hit the top. 

Since he is more than capable of clearing the height on a running jump, it must be a training/technique issue.


----------



## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

Tony, as you add speed (which happens with most dogs when you add distance or drive towards the jump) the natural curve of the jump flattens and lengthens, which is obviously a problem when you're trying to clear a high jump. If you teach a dog how to properly collect at take off, shift weight back to hind legs and use those hind legs to maximize the power up not forward at take off, the dog should be able to correct that flight arch to clear the hurdle.


----------



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

The wall 'jump' in FR is technically not a jumping action, the dam dog is climbing, all 4 feet are in contact with the wall,a disqualification in every 'jumping' venue from horses to humans..

Only seen vids of the FR 3m wall and never yet seen it being jumped in the way you guys are describing.


----------



## Tony Hahn (May 28, 2011)

Marta- I'm unable to watch youtube videos right now, but what I'm gathering by reading your posts is that you are more or less getting a dog to learn how to pace himself (or set himself up) for a jump by using multiple obstacles that he must navigate over in sequence. 

If I understand correctly, the obstacles don't necessarily need to be "jumps" as long as the dog is learning to adjust his stride/position to clear them.


----------



## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> The wall 'jump' in FR is technically not a jumping action, the dam dog is climbing, all 4 feet are in contact with the wall,a disqualification in every 'jumping' venue from horses to humans..
> 
> Only seen vids of the FR 3m wall and never yet seen it being jumped in the way you guys are describing.


:roll:http://www.schutzhund-training.net/rules/frenchringrules.html http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmBtxbPTWwU


----------



## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> The wall 'jump' in FR is technically not a jumping action, the dam dog is climbing, all 4 feet are in contact with the wall,a disqualification in every 'jumping' venue from horses to humans..
> 
> Only seen vids of the FR 3m wall and never yet seen it being jumped in the way you guys are describing.


I haven't seen an FR person on this thread discuss the wall, IE palisade, only the hurdle and the long jump. I have seen Schutzhund people discuss the wall, which is their 1 m hurdle. However, since many times it's a solid wooden jump, it's also referred to by many as the "wall".

Perhaps this is where the confusion is coming from?


----------



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Gotcha, the rules Ed put up actually call it a 'climbing' wall. Was talking about different things.

The long jump a dog will def. have to jump flat like a steeple chaser. The single 1m hurdle I would expect any medium size house pet to handle without a problem.

correct form cannot hurt the training and takes the same time to train, so its still a good discussion.

I see FR long jump vids with a dog inverted, which makes me cringe, the handlers neither know or care and I guess it is not a points thing so performance wise in that venue it doesn't matter.

Agility people would not let a comp dog climb a wall cos its telling yr dog its ok to let yr feet make contact with the jump.

No real right or wrong, just whatever yr sport requires.


----------



## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Peter, you missed it in the rules I guess. In FR they have a 1 meter hurdle and the palisade/wall.


----------



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Yeah I got that? Pallisade AKA climbing wall as per rules. Makes sense just a completely different bio-mechanics to hurdle or long jump.

I'm on the same page now, not sure if everyone was actually posting about the same thing though as Kadi pointed out.

All good, thanks.


----------



## Gerald Guay (Jun 15, 2010)

Peter,
Usually FR dogs are taught to hurdle and long jump before they are taught the palisade (touch with feet) for the exact reason you mentioned.


----------



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

So there's a logic to all this sport training.........kiddin.


----------



## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

Tony Hahn said:


> Marta- I'm unable to watch youtube videos right now, but what I'm gathering by reading your posts is that you are more or less getting a dog to learn how to pace himself (or set himself up) for a jump by using multiple obstacles that he must navigate over in sequence.
> 
> If I understand correctly, the obstacles don't necessarily need to be "jumps" as long as the dog is learning to adjust his stride/position to clear them.


You got it. 

You can use poles on the ground, sections of PVC pipes cut length wise in half like speed bumps, eventually a set of jumps (you could play with the height depending on what you're trying to achieve from a couple inches off the ground up to maybe 24'' depending on the size of the dog). You can even vary the heights, 1 low, 1 med, 1 low, 1 high, 1 low... (adjusting based on the dog's performance and the issue you want to fix) all to force the dog into thinking about their foot work, take off, and landing. Teaching proper form will also lessen chances of any injuries.


----------



## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

so how do people prefer their dog jump? With the hind legs tucked up under their body or extended out the back? 
I trained all my diffrent jumps at the same time.


----------



## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Daniel Lybbert said:


> so how do people prefer their dog jump? With the hind legs tucked up under their body or extended out the back?
> I trained all my diffrent jumps at the same time.


I'm thinking extended out the back. Less chance of the dog hitting or useing the top of the hurdle.


----------



## Hans Akerbakk (Jul 1, 2008)

I like this style of jumping


----------



## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Daniel Lybbert said:


> so how do people prefer their dog jump? With the hind legs tucked up under their body or extended out the back?


Extended. If the dog tucks they actually have to jump quite a bit higher to clear the jump since the legs tucked under them adds 4-6 inches of "extras" under their body. If they extend the body only has to clear the hurdle by a small amount.


----------



## Hans Akerbakk (Jul 1, 2008)

With ring jumps , hurdle and broad jump I train the dog to get alot of height.
Here's a picture of a friends dog doing a 4.5 meter broad jump. I don't have a good side view but this picture is pretty neat.


----------



## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Hans Akerbakk said:


> With ring jumps , hurdle and broad jump I train the dog to get alot of height.
> Here's a picture of a friends dog doing a 4.5 meter broad jump. I don't have a good side view but this picture is pretty neat.


That is a great pic!


----------



## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Same dog that Hans posted, but the long jump from the side.


----------



## Hans Akerbakk (Jul 1, 2008)

The side view looks a little stupid in a freeze frame but the dog is still gaining height , he is trying to reach max height at the key so he should easily sail past. Bombers jump looks more impressive live . If you go back to the picture I put and check out the dogs nose you will know why I nicknamed him Bumface.


----------



## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Hans Akerbakk said:


> The side view looks a little stupid in a freeze frame but the dog is still gaining height , he is trying to reach max height at the key so he should easily sail past.


I have another photo of that same jump/trial but I didn't take it so can't post it. As he's going over the key, he's as high or even higher then he was in my photo. Heck of a jumper.



> If you go back to the picture I put and check out the dogs nose you will know why I nicknamed him Bumface.


LOL I have joked with Vince many times that Bomber and Chaos must have been next to each other in the womb. She stole all his "pretty genes" and he stole all her "jumping genes". They are both FRIIIs, but that's where the similarities ended. Chaos is social, good looking, and an average (by FR standards) jumper. Bomber's the total opposite.


----------



## Olga Sukonnikova (Apr 16, 2009)

Just liked it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9U-eHGoEOo


----------



## Olga Sukonnikova (Apr 16, 2009)

And a very helpful thread, thanks everyone!


----------

