# The Truth About Separation Anxiety



## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Do you believe in it? Personally, I dont. Who can convince me with a clear, concise argument without all the doggy psycobabble?


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I believe it is largely a self created problem. I cannot honestly imagine participating in creating that kind of dependancy. But then again I am one of those people who feel that dogs are just dogs and need time out and about in their own private environments (fenced yard or open fields, etc) and around their own kind occasionally - more specifically away from their owners to keep them relatively well grounded. 

Not said very well I realize but it will have to suffice for a lack of having the ability to put it in a more succinct way at the moment.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I look at it as the same thing as a kid that's spent to much time with mom. First time away and the dog stresses, momma says "aw poor baby"!
I do think it's a form of stress, but it's created and fed till the dog is all ****** up!


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Let's see.....

Rock the Dutchie....before he came to me...the owner had "girlfriend issues" and kept him in a crate for long hours, in the basement....the dog has no canines left from chewing out of crates and then eventually through the wall leading out of the basement....

He goes everywhere with me, or mom and dad "babysit" otherwise I have diarrhea and vomit everywhere and the trim around the doors and windows is ripped off....

Have tried the tough love in an aluminum crate thing (got tired of dragging it outside to hose out)....and while I can leave him in the house for a few hours now.... I worry about coming back to a mess....but I do it as I do not want the dog to have this issue, but I doubt he will ever really get over it completely....

OTOH...he is fine in a crate in the rig...and he does not freak out if I leave him in there at all....

I am with Bob....it is a created issue....


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Carol Boche said:


> OTOH...he is fine in a crate in the rig...and he does not freak out if I leave him in there at all....


Interesting, almost sounds entirely situational in this case. Like PTSD - seriously.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Nicole Stark said:


> Interesting, almost sounds entirely situational in this case. Like PTSD - seriously.


I agree....wish I knew what really happened to him besides the locked in the basement thing...he is a cool dog though.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Not sure I could live with myself if I created a situation like that. I'm interested in knowing if anyone has ever successfully turned a dog around who was said to have this problem. 

From the sound of things, there might be other solutions to lessen the behavior like not leaving them alone in a room for example. I wonder if there's some sort of relationship to high intelligence in dogs who eventually turn the page like that.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

One of my daughters had to get rid of a Pitbull because of it. Great dog in or out of the crate as long as someone was home. When they left the dog would tear itself up breaking out of the crates, then it would destroy the house. It came that way as a rescue dog but didn't show up for a week or so after she got it. 
My 12-13 yr old JRT Pete started showing some signs of it when we moved two yrs ago but seemed to overcome it. My son bought a house a couple of months ago and took Pete with him. Single guy, works all day and partys at night. It's starting up again. :evil:
If he doesn't get it straightend out I'm reclaiming Pete.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I think it can be created, but I also think that some dogs are just more prone to it. I have seen it created for sure, but I have also seen people that have two littermates that one cannot be allowed out in the house at all when they are gone so they have to put him in the backyard, and the other is fine in the house, but usually is put with the fuktard.

Either way, I think that there is some genetic or "nerve" component to this shit. I have had it twice and the dogs are raised the same way. The second time the dog was not as bad as the first. I definately caused the first one, I was pretty young, but the second, was not nearly the nightmare the first one was.

I have had multiple dogs loose in the house, and they did some stupid shit, but I think three or four occurrences in a lifetime doesn't count.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

> Not sure I could live with myself if I created a situation like that. I'm interested in knowing if anyone has ever successfully turned a dog around who was said to have this problem.


 I will be working with an Aussie mix this weekend that has it as bad as whats been described here. I have some ideas on how I'm going to approach problem. I'll let you know how it goes.




> Either way, I think that there is some genetic or "nerve" component to this shit.


 I'm leaning that way myself. It's impossible to fix thin nerves, only negate it's effects. It will be interesting.

I will also be working with a vicious white GSD but thats a whole new topic.

Howard


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Separation anxiety is at best managed.

There seems to be a cycle effect to it. Owner leaves pup home alone, without ever having set the dog properly. Then the owner comes home to find that the dog got into the trash or whatever, and punishes the dog.

More than likely, the dog was really happy to see his owner this first time, as the destruction occurred fairly soon after the owner left. This punishment damages something in the dog, and then the owner leaves the dog again, and this time the damage is worse.

It is a big circle jerk. The owner claims that "he knows he did wrong" but the dog is just reading the tension in the owner, and responding.

I think you can have some success if the dog is young, and the owner is softer.


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## Michael Wise (Sep 14, 2008)

How do you think you created it in the first dog, Jeff?


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

I am not sure that it is nerves with Rock....while it may be...the dog will go over, under, through, into, dig at, jump on, and get into the water without an issue, in fact, he does crap that I have to stop as it is dangerous to him.....

He is smart and picks things up in a heartbeat, although he is a hard dog with corrections (he doesn't care, his drive overrides his ability to obey a command...) 
With gunfire, he goes nuts in the rig and if out, he will go after the gun hand...I was told he was an LEO wash out as he would not bite for "real" so he was taken by a firefighter and trained for FEMA disaster and that is when all of his issues came out. 

I have never had a dog with SA before him, and I never want one again. 
While I have the lifestyle that he can come to work, stay at the folks and what not, he really is a PIA sometimes and I really try not to hold that against him....his work ethics are wonderful so that makes up for his downfall.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

I think to some degree it is possible. If the animal is 24/7 under your feet and can't spent time w/o you, then possible. My dogs, all of them, have never had an issue. They are kennel dwellers and not inside dogs, they are required to problem-solve when we take walks into the woods and face issues, and I DON'T run to their every "need" if they holler!!!


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Howard Gaines III said:


> I think to some degree it is possible. If the animal is 24/7 under your feet and can't spent time w/o you, then possible.


I agree....and I do leave the dog alone for up to 4 hours, whether it be in the car or at the house...that seems to be his threshold of time before he goes apesh*t. 
It took me a year to get to that point, and I keep up on it, but I will never "fix" it. So, I do the best I can....truth be told, if he was not such a hard working SOB, he would have been down the road a long time ago.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I got the dog the summer before freshman year, and took the dog everywhere with me. When she got tired, I just carried her. She was a really cool dog as long as you were with her. She would hold a down stay while I was in class, and eventually someone figured out there was a Rott out in the bushes, and tried to remove her......not good. She never learned to be alone.


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## Adi Ibrahimbegovic (Nov 21, 2008)

while i have never owned a dog that was like some of you describe, i believe it is largely an idiot owner created issue. There might be some genetic predisposition to it as well as the issue of trust. Hard to say as each particular case is unique.

So, my opinion in order of preference:

created over time

owner doesn't correct it in time or recognizes what the issue is, makes it worse by doing something dumb

dog's nerves could play the part in it too

not trusting the owner

Can it be cured/fixed completely?

Not likely, I think. It didn't happen overnight and it cannot be fixed overnight. It takes time, patience and consistency, but even then it's just probably going to be at the "livable with" and okay level, never fully cured. Just my opinion.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

What sort of behaviour does a dog show that is experiencing separation anxiety?

I know some owners make an awful fuss about leaving little Fido when they go out and I guess these emotions can be picked up on by the dog, causing him to have some sort of anxiety, especially if it's the owner who's suffering from "SA".

I do know it's best to leave without a word but I can't resist saying "back soon boys" whereupon Toni chides me for lying to them

The best thing I saw on tele was the dog trainer telling the woman who said her dog had SP to let it off the lead. She said she couldn't as the dog would run off and wouldn't come back so quickly](*,)


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

I think it is a disposition toward weak nerves, as well as perhaps aggravated by dumb handling. Your 'vicious' white Howard is also likely a weak nerve problem too, whites run with weak nerves right down the line although no doubt there will probably be exceptions.

I've had a dog with SA, he lived within a pack of four and none of the others suffered from it, it started with him as a very young pup. I made it worse but as I addressed it, it became manageable over time, I do not think it is something you can bully out of a dog, after all it's kind of like a lack of confidence isn't it? He never learned to be alone as a pup, a mistake I would never make again. Having an item of your clothing with your scent on around can help, also ignoring all behaviour whether destructive or friendly on your return I found helped my case too.

Anyway good luck, you're probably gonna need it!


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

maggie fraser said:


> ...whites run with weak nerves right down the line although no doubt there will probably be exceptions.


 Ah Maggie, if it isn't in "Blackwatch plaid" it's wrong! :mrgreen:
You are correct in that color paled dogs tend to showcase more problems in health and nerve. But don't tell that to the white GSD folks! :-$


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## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

Howard Gaines III said:


> I think to some degree it is possible. If the animal is 24/7 under your feet and can't spent time w/o you, then possible. My dogs, all of them, have never had an issue. They are kennel dwellers and not inside dogs, they are required to problem-solve when we take walks into the woods and face issues, and I DON'T run to their every "need" if they holler!!!


 
I'm no training pro and have probably owned and raised fewer dogs than most of you folks, but since as far back as I can remember our family dogs where mostly outside dogs since my mother was allergic to dog hair/dust. The pups where taught at soon as we got them that they can play with us and roam, but when its time to put them up they have to learn how to spend alone time, away and out of site from the family. And for the most part, that is how ive continued to raise my own dogs.

We've never had any issues with seperation anxiety.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I think it's a combination of both genetics and environment. I definitely think it "exists", having seen to many dogs with it not to.

My first dog had it. In his case I'm not sure how much was genetics and how much was environment, but I do believe that being removed from the litter at 4-5 weeks had a lot to do with it. Not that he was removed but the "breeder" sold off all the littermates before they were 4-4.5 weeks old, he was 1 day shy of 5 weeks old when I picked him up. I was told he was older but later realized he wasn't. Not that I knew enough at the time for it to matter.

For him luckily the SA manifested as mainly barking and howling, not self mutiliation. And was controlled by getting a roomate who also had a dog, and then later by getting myself a cat, so he always had company. 

I've dealt with dogs since who had SA and injured themselves trying to get loose if left alone, one I was able to rehab over time (this was a very strong nerved dog who IMO was raised wrong) and after about 1 year she was perfectly normal, another was ultimately put down for the SA and other aggression related issues. With the second dog I'm not sure what the cause was, I don't believe the SA was an issue when it was younger, but she also lived most of her life in a multi-dog situation, with lots of people coming and going, so I don't know how often she was truly alone. Later she was in a single dog household with both owners working full time, and that's when the SA and aggression issues showed up.

I've also dealt with it in one dog that I felt was medication induced. He never showed any signs of SA until he was 4 or 5, and then the vet put him on Deramaxx. About 2 weeks later he started escaping from the kennel and crates, would completely mutilate his face trying to bust out, and became generally "odd". Random aggression and other behavioral issues also. Finally we tracked it back to the Deramaxx and took him off, 90% of the problems subsided but he was always an escape artist after that. He wouldn't injure himself to get out, but now that he knew he could he'd try. Turns out one of the possible side effects of Deramaxx is "restlessness". I believe their website used to say "anxiousness", but either way Malinois + restlessness = "wound way to tight". I've talked to other Belgian owners, all varieties, who have seen the same behavioral issues when they used Deramaxx. On the flip side, I've used it with some of my other Malinois with no problems at all so ...


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Howard, would you care to say how you intend to deal with this separation anxiety and also, is the SA the issue you have been charged to deal with, or just an additional extra ?


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

So, what would some recommendations be when someone has a dog that came with the pre-existing condition and is doing what they can to manage it without ever babying the dog?


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

maggie fraser said:


> Howard, would you care to say how you intend to deal with this separation anxiety and also, is the SA the issue you have been charged to deal with, or just an additional extra ?


 Here's the kicker....This dog is about 5 years old. The first 3 years of its' life it ran loose on a farm in North Carolina. It' wasn't until this single, retired, elderly lady took possession of the dog did it become a problem. This dog is busting out of crates, tearing up furniture, house trim and clothing, and going out the second floor window to the roof to see the owner leave.

So, you can see how I think SA is a poor way to describe a thin nerved, poorly trained and socialized dog that has been coddled by the owner. 

My thing is this....why can the dog run loose for 3 years with no problem, have a crappy recall with the current owner and then suddenly have this issue we put human terms on describing the problem? I know it's not a quick fix because it didn't happen overnight.

I got this job from a newbie "professional" trainer whose Rottie I worked with a couple years ago. He calls me when he gets in over his head and he is clueless with this one. He was surprised to hear my thoughts on SA. He also hooked me up with the nutso white GSD pair. Lucky me, eh?

I'm going to use the dogs' natural drives to hopefully rehab him. I'm going to use a buggy whip/flirt pole and a nice rabbit hide to get his mind working in a decidedly doggy way. I'm going to have the owner slowly step out of the picture as I work the dog. She will have strict instructions to follow my commands to the T while I work her dog so there are no major bumps. The dog will be under my control and I'll have a DD collar on him for my safety, and possible use. I will not use food because he probably wont take any under the stress, as slight it may be if I do it right.

So that's the initial plan. Get the dog thinking doggy again, and redirect the energy to something positive and less destructive. Wear him out, then work on the owner absence a bit more. The SA is the primary task at this point in time. Save fixing the owner as well. I should get double time pay, eh? Wish me luck tomorrow.

Howard


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

I think it's a trained behavior, intentional or not.

I believe my dog has a form of this, Readers Digest version....obnoxious when I'm not around, but we're together week days 24/7 so I can't really say it's abnormal considering being together is a normal state for us.

When a dog changes hands and the situation is different, most likely it will be viewed as a problem but it's a dog right, if it can't adapt to a different lifestyle then maybe it's got a problem or has been in the latter state for so long that change is difficult.

I could be wrong.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Howard Knauf said:


> I'm going to use the dogs' natural drives to hopefully rehab him. I'm going to use a buggy whip/flirt pole and a nice rabbit hide to get his mind working in a decidedly doggy way. I'm going to have the owner slowly step out of the picture as I work the dog. She will have strict instructions to follow my commands to the T while I work her dog so there are no major bumps. The dog will be under my control and I'll have a DD collar on him for my safety, and possible use. I will not use food because he probably wont take any under the stress, as slight it may be if I do it right.
> 
> So that's the initial plan. Get the dog thinking doggy again, and redirect the energy to something positive and less destructive. Wear him out, then work on the owner absence a bit more. The SA is the primary task at this point in time. Save fixing the owner as well. I should get double time pay, eh? Wish me luck tomorrow.
> 
> Howard


I really like your plan. I probably would use food, but then you have seen the dog and I haven't. But anyway, I'd start right off with anything the dog can do and be rewarded for, no matter how you reward.

Thinking doggy has another big plus, which is helping to restore everyday confidence, and of course the release of some frustration/boredom.

Later, you might want to teach the owner about work-to-eat items so she is not the focus when she IS there, about not paying attention when the dog demands it, and all the prep to leave without actually leaving so the buildup of stress can be un-learned, and then (and that prep de-buildup takes a while) when the prep can be endured with no stress, the mini-separations start, with maybe seconds-long sessions at first. (I now randomize these as well as starting with mere seconds -- the randomizing is so there's no pattern, which was a mistake I made at first, the first time I worked with a SA dog.)

Your plan sounds very good to me (another way of saying "what I would do, so it MUST be good" .... :lol: ). I hope you will report on this. 8) I'm sure many of us will be interested.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Whatever you do, charge a ****load of money.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Definately charge a bundle because the dog will probably go right back to being a pia when the owners "take control" again. You need to work with them as much as the dog.


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

I think there are two cases of SA. One is the true SA, that makes the dog so stressed that he can't even take a poty brake at a little distance without beeing worried to death that the owner disappears. Constant anxiety!
Then I believe there is AS that has different causes, that often depends on a situation or circumstance.

If a dog gets it, is definatly a nature/nurture issue. It will depend on the dog and it nereve set up if it will be prone to it, and then if the dog is properly prepared for it.
As with everything we have to set up the dog for success and train the dog to cope with the stress of beeing left alone.
Some dogs are upset because the owner leaves without them, because they feel the owner has no business beeing alone outside. Then there are dogs that are affraid of beeing alone , affraid of beeing left.
I know that dogs out of shelters often have a tendancy to this SA.

But even with proper training you can find yourself all sudden in a situation that a dog snaps into SA. While a dog might have been fine for a long time, there are triggers for it. A stay at the vets, a stay at a boarding kennel, a move a death in the houshold...

The right way to leave and the right way to come back is important, the dog has to be excersied - brain and body- to not add additional stress.

Routines can be good and can be bad, some dogs do better when you do not have a rutine before you leave, so their behavior can't escalate with all the preludes to the actual seperation. so changing your behavior frequently before you leave and fake your leave can be as successfull.
Depending on the dog.
I have to deal with Sa I guess on a regular basis, at my house. We move often and that creates Anxiety with my dogs. The result is/was classical destructive behavior. But this form is easily to overcome. Rutine, excersize and not overacting in coming and going. All this including a set schedule, give the dogs the cornerstones to cope with all the changes. If I wouldn't do it, I am sure it could escalate sooner or later in a form of SA.
I believe proper crate training can prevent and help with cases of SA.

I haven't tried it yet, but Oh my gosh, It must have worked wonderfully, using a visual marker to for the dog with SA to give it security while in the crate and beeing left alone. Including of course the training of enduring longer times in the crate. I saw this one on TV. I think it was "Barking Mad". It stuck with me, cause she used in addition to the comon training the visual marker- very successfully for the dog.
The visual sign on the door was new to me, but helped the dog.

I don't think SA can be cured, but I do think the whole situation can be destressed quite a bit for the dog!


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I really like your plan. I probably would use food, but then you have seen the dog and I haven't. But anyway, I'd start right off with anything the dog can do and be rewarded for, no matter how you reward.
> .


 After I posted my response I thought..."what to do after the dog gets the rabbit? Hmmmm" I want to make this as low stress as possible so I need to trade for the item. I have yet to see this dog so I'm going prepared to win the day. I will attempt to use food for the trade. I'm cooking chicken livers as I write this. That ought to work

This visit was supposed to be just a consultation. Screw that, I'm ready to work. If I'm driving 2o miles to see a dog I'm going to hold a leash.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Sounds a good plan and will be interesting to hear how you get on with it. Is the dog a white gsd by any chance ? not that it makes much difference I suppose just curious to the breed.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

OK. The first session is done and boy what a cluster!

First off, the information I got initially is totally wrong. The dog is an Akita mix and has been with the owner since it was a pup. The dog is 11 months old, not 5 yoa. The farm thing was correct though...except the time line.

Secondly, the guy who set me up with this owner has already worked with the dog and failed to tell me this. His idea of working on this problem was locking the dog in a cage and having the owner step out of the door for a few seconds, then return. Now I had to work on three problems, one being the crate is now the boogeyman. Crap!

Here's how it went....I used the rabbit fur on the flirt pole, played tug and brought the dog away from the owner in the process. The dog barely traded for the treats but he finally would once the fur was "Killed". We continued the game and the owner eventually went inside the house to watch the proceedings. The dog was fine outside.

I then went inside and did the same drill but mainly tugging as the owner slipped away. You could tell the dog was stressing just a bit and he wouldn't take food at all. I continued the drill and eventually the dog just went neutral...no more prey drive, but also no bad stress either.

Had the owner come inside and for the next hour worked with the dog in very small increments by having the owner move about the house while the dog layed on the floor. The dog only got up once from the floor, but would lift his head when he felt the owner was going too far away. Each time the owner was told to return when the dog gave an indication he noticed her moving away. Each subsequent drill the dog allowed her to move further away out of sight. At one point she was outside for a few minutes, or went upstairs ( 10 stairs took 20 minutes) and the dog would just lie there calmly. I believed the dog was learning that the owner would return as long as he stayed calm. The dog was allowed to go through a bit of stress and seemed to be OK in the end.

The crate issue was addressed, as was the feeding of the dog, and some heel work outside. The owner was informed that she needed to change up her routine so the dog is not keyed on certain events that would trigger the nutso behavior.

To do anymore would have buried the owner with TMI. Thats all for now.

Howard


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

For a minute there I thought you went to the wrong house. Sounds like you worked the details out and have a plan. I'm interested in hearing how things go with him. When will you see them again?


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

We're set up for Sunday. Will be interesting to see if the dog reverts back or stays where we left off today.

I have another idea that involves a variable speed motor, a crate and an umbrella. That one I'll keep to myself.


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## Linda Pfonner (Jan 7, 2010)

Howard Knauf said:


> Here's the kicker....This dog is about 5 years old. The first 3 years of its' life it ran loose on a farm in North Carolina. It' wasn't until this single, retired, elderly lady took possession of the dog did it become a problem. This dog is busting out of crates, tearing up furniture, house trim and clothing, and going out the second floor window to the roof to see the owner leave.
> [snippage for space]
> Howard



That doesn't sound like SA; it sounds like claustrophobia.

My second dog [I was 8] was a field-line Beagle. He looked like a Basset with a Beagle's head,legs & tail stuck on. Alpha dog to other dogs, sweet as pie to family. Resisted biting my brother when my brother richly deserved it.
When he was left home alone at age 10 weeks he shredded carpet and curtains, including half-curtains on the back door. That meant the ten-week-old Beagle pup had leaped three feet in the air repeatedly biting at the fabric. 
Second time, tethered to a ceiling jack in the basement, he punched holes in his metal water dish and shredded a corner of carpet he could reach.
For the rest of his life we tethered him outside; last one to leave the house had to put the dog out. He was totally fine out on his chain, but simply could not handle being in the house alone.

Or, as I reread Howard's post, did the crappy recall and running the farm mean that the dog did not properly bond with Original Owner, but has now Properly bonded with the Little Old Lady, and simply does not want to be separated from her?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

So do you even know the definition of claustrophobia ? That is not claustrophobia, it is separation anxiety.


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## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

Howard Knauf said:


> Do you believe in it? Personally, I dont. Who can convince me with a clear, concise argument without all the doggy psycobabble?


I see it all the time on house calls. 
It's a created problem, like others have posted.

It can be fixed, but it's not an easy process and requires several methods to work well on the BAD cases.
Most cases can be fixed rather easily. Mass amounts of exercise and OB training generally all the fix for most cases.


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## Linda Pfonner (Jan 7, 2010)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> So do you even know the definition of claustrophobia ? That is not claustrophobia, it is separation anxiety.



Claustrophobia refers to the fear of or refusal to submit to being enclosed in a small space. I understand it very well; I suffer from it myself. Blitz the Beagle was not in the least interested in joining us; he ran loose whenever he could manage it and had his own affairs (this was a looong time ago). But he could not tolerate being left alone indoors. As long as someone was with him -- and it didn't matter who -- he was okay. 

If you're defining separation anxiety as the inability to tolerate solitude, I'll concede the point. If you mean a dog attached to an individual or family so intensely that separation from those specific person(s) causes ungovernable behavior, that's a separate thing. 

Jenny Manyteeth was a classic separation anxiety case; a sheltie-x-dobe (probably), I raised her from age 5 weeks when she was dumped on a porch and left to freeze. She bonded to me so tightly that, while she became accustomed to me going to work and leaving her behind, she would not tolerate being left behind any other time. If I left her with my best friend and stepped off the elevator, as the doors closed she would start to scream. She had a voice like an air raid siren. I rarely left her with anyone.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I would leave that dog at the vet. Death would occur quickly. I have no time or patience for bullshit like this.

Your definition of claustrophobia is ****led. A house is not a small space. However you can define bullshit however you want, to me it will always be bullshit.

Defining SA is cute and all, but there is such relief when the dog is dead and they no longer have to go through all the coniptions just to own a dog.

In fact, I will go so far as to say to waste time with a dog that cannot handle himself when alone is a farce. However, I know that people are making money off that shit, so they will continue to exist as an abomination on this earth.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I would leave that dog at the vet. Death would occur quickly. I have no time or patience for bullshit like this.
> 
> In fact, I will go so far as to say to waste time with a dog that cannot handle himself when alone is a farce. However, I know that people are making money off that shit, so they will continue to exist as an abomination on this earth.


 
WOW, I couldn't agree more.....I have a 6 mo old Lab I got for wife and kids, and he is lucky he isn't in the ground YET.............


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I've always heard that true separation anxiety (and not boredom/lack of exercise) is perhaps part of a desirable trait for something like herding breeds that wish to keep everything together, but there are plenty of non-herding breeders that do it, so who knows. My parents have a Weimaraner with what I feel could very well be claustrophobia. He was a rescue dog that was originally a foster of mine, but if you put that dog in a small kennel run or a crate in particular, he will turn his gums into a bloody mess trying to get out, whether you're in the room with him or not. But if you left him in the house when the parents are gone, he doesn't care and sleeps the day away. So whether it is nerves or previously bad experience, not sure, but I do think the "OMG, freak out in a small enclosed area!" thing is real. And like Carol, my former GSD/Mal mix Zoso hated being left in the crate at home and would chew on the bars or escape, but at either Schutzhund or agility training, he didn't seem to mind. So who knows?

Whether it is genetic or environmental, it does make me appreciate breeders who get the pups used to being in the crate at their house and making sure the crate is imprinted as a good place for eating and taking naps.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

It is a nerve issue. There is something broken in the dog in the first place. It has different levels based on thresholds, as I have seen such mad desperation to get out of a crate that teeth were busted before I even left the room, to ONLY when you are gone for a bit.

It is crap, and I wish I knew what EXACTLY was going on in that busted brain, but I doubt it has much to do with herding.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

And of course there are many herding dogs that love their crates and are fine with being home alone with little problem. I suspect in my parent's dog's case it was probably both nerves/genetics and environmental. Weims aren't exactly known for having the strongest nerves out there either. However, their Vizsla is even nuttier. I have yet to meet a single one that isn't a total flake and/or fear biter. Without going into a lot of detail, their dog *really* needs to just be put down.


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