# Working Black Russians



## Chernij Bogatir (Dec 12, 2012)

Hello. Looking for anyone who worked Black Russians. 

We train ours. First ScH, doing ok but slow, now we move towards something like PPD. We know a lot about breed but we are only 2 years of learning how to train and very careful. 

Not for debate breeds etc. etc. we have reasons for choosing breed. But we would like to learn from experience of anyone who has worked them. Working dog needs work so we can give them good life.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

hi..welcome to the forum, where are you located?


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## Chernij Bogatir (Dec 12, 2012)

Rainy, rainy, NW


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I guess it matters what you mean by training for PPD.

I have worked a handful of BRT, 5-6 over the years, and none of them were really cut out for PPD work in my mind....


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## Chernij Bogatir (Dec 12, 2012)

Interesting. Why do you feel they could not do it? What work do you think they good for?


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## Chernij Bogatir (Dec 12, 2012)

What good you see, what bad you see?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I do not know what the bloodlines were, I will add that, to be fair.

What did I think they were good for? the ones I worked, I think were good for participating in dog shows, and good for snapping bite work pictures rapid fire with high speed camera, and then combing through them, for that one picture that was taken at precisely the right time, for putting it up on a website, making the dogs look impressive in bitework, to give people the impression that they were good working dogs, when in fact they were not, at all, either in a sport minded way, or a more serious PPD way.

seemed like decent enough big dogs, that might visually deter someone, and bark...

but again those are just the few that I saw, which I know, may not be a good representation of the breed.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

I saw my first two BRT's a guy brought out to a Mondio Ring club ~ 8 years ago imported from Russian. They didn't have it. 
I've seen another dozen in person. Only one was able to do Schutzhund (at least title) I wouldn't trust any of them in a life threatening situation :-(


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Chernij Bogatir said:


> Hello. Looking for anyone who worked Black Russians.
> 
> We train ours. First ScH, doing ok but slow, now we move towards something like PPD. We know a lot about breed but we are only 2 years of learning how to train and very careful.
> 
> Not for debate breeds etc. etc. we have reasons for choosing breed. But we would like to learn from experience of anyone who has worked them. Working dog needs work so we can give them good life.


Chernij.

I think you'll find a lot of "you can't do it" in regards to your breed. Not because they can't, but because someone good enough has not done it with the right dog, yet.. Work your dogs. Post pics. Enjoy them. You can do with them what is within your ability to train, and their genetic ability. 

Positive (realistic) thought and a good training away from your keyboard will get you further than anyone's experience working a Black Russian on this board. I'd bet my life on it. Take good advice all day long, but why drown yourself in the "you can't do it, I have never seen it..."

Good luck!!


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## Chernij Bogatir (Dec 12, 2012)

Dave Colborn said:


> Chernij.
> 
> I think you'll find a lot of "you can't do it" in regards to your breed. Not because they can't, but because someone good enough has not done it with the right dog, yet.. Work your dogs. Post pics. Enjoy them. You can do with them what is within your ability to train, and their genetic ability.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the words of support! We enjoy learning process but so many opinions! We just hoped to understand what techniques people apply in general that maybe work. We try to find the work most suited for BRT temperament but even in Russia now in last 5 or 10 years not so many train for work. Same for many breeds I guess. Also in Russia different things are expected from dog and dogs are bred and maybe some behavior Americans like better some behavior Russians like better. As we learn we discover intent was guard, stay close, not go out and catch like prey so ScH maybe forces something that is not natural and dogs should be happy to work I think. 

It's ok for me, ScH is maybe like ballet. I like ballet, its so much training and good to watch but in the end I want to dance in the real world with my girlfriend, so I don't need ballet I just need to dance. Maybe if we learn enough we can show what BRTs can do.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

- your post was too short to get much advice ////
- but a few experienced people who have worked with them gave their experience ////
- from this point on, it will be like comparing the best dog food...what works for someone else may not for you

re : "Maybe if we learn enough we can show what BRTs can do"
... bad way to look at it.... too negative in my opinion

***do what Dave said*** 

"we do SchH now we try PPD" .... no details there either so don't expect good advice

show what they do NOW and if the video is a few minutes long and not drowned out by music, there are MANY experienced people who can show you ways to do it better

stop worrying about a "rare" breed, and what other russians are doing, and what americans might do different, and thinking SchH is like ballet but all you want to do is dance w/ your girl 
--- you probably just need to learn how to read your dog better and learn how to get the most out of it and keep it motivated while doing that. i will bet a LOT, that there are things you need to do with it before you should even start ... "doing SchH" ...or "PPD"

....as far as PPD work ....it means a lot of different things to most people but we have some people on who who consider themselves PPD trainers
-- i think PPD training is MUCH more difficult than K9 sport work, but no one believes me 

by the way .... i know LOTS about ballet  ... we have had a classical ballet studio for many years and the discipline required to learn it has NOTHING to do with dancing with a girlfriend...
-- another bad comparison  ....dancing with your girlfriend is FUN ,,,, ballet is a LOT of HARD work, especially for men if they are not flexible and have good muscle control... most guys are too lazy and don't have the "genetics" or "drive" required to learn it 

how did you learn so much about this breed by the way ? 
have you bred these dogs ? 
have you had a lot of them ?

my only experience with black russians is drinking them, but they look like a bigger version of standard poodles and i have worked with them ... they also used to do protection work but after so many generations trying to make them family companions they get REALLY confused when you try and bring aggression out ... about all you can do is teach them prey/play drive biting and tugging, but they don't know how to get serious when pressured. you might have some of the same in your rare dogs ... if so, accept it, but if they are so different, show how and why they are and people might believe you

good luck


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Chernij Bogatir said:


> Thanks for the words of support! We enjoy learning process but so many opinions! We just hoped to understand what techniques people apply in general that maybe work. We try to find the work most suited for BRT temperament but even in Russia now in last 5 or 10 years not so many train for work. Same for many breeds I guess. Also in Russia different things are expected from dog and dogs are bred and maybe some behavior Americans like better some behavior Russians like better. As we learn we discover intent was guard, stay close, not go out and catch like prey so ScH maybe forces something that is not natural and dogs should be happy to work I think.
> 
> It's ok for me, ScH is maybe like ballet. I like ballet, its so much training and good to watch but in the end I want to dance in the real world with my girlfriend, so I don't need ballet I just need to dance. Maybe if we learn enough we can show what BRTs can do.


First off Dave posted a very good post. I am all sorts of mentally screwed up currently because of dealing with a tragic family situation involving my dying father and his new wife, who has erased my family from his life., so maybe I came off sounding harsher than I intended to, so my apologies to you if I did, and thanks to Dave for a good post.

I was responding to the questions directly asked to me, based on my limited experiences with the breed. 

I did try to ask what you meant by PPD training, as I am generally curious to hear what people mean when they say they are training for PPD. 

Most of the PPD work I have done with dogs has been with off breeds of various types. So I do know how to work non traditional dogs fairly well in my opinion for that, that is kinda why I asked what you meant by PPD. 

There were a couple people with the BRT that were committed to coming out to training for almost a whole "season" here, meaning months of the year that are not super cold or super snowy outside, and one person that stuck with training for a year or so, as far as bite work was concerned. All of them, ultimately, chose to do other things with their dogs, as the dogs progressed very slowly in the training. The prey drive was there in a very very small way, and only one that I can remember had enough confidence to work in a more traditional "defense" driven way. There was not much commitment there, and the dog was not very stable either, so it was lots of distance work (dog close to handler), me far away, took many sessions to build the confidence up, with night work for suspicion, fence work for confidence, and lots of handler involvement (team work) and good acting skills to portray an un-confident weak suspicious "badguy" to be able to come to the dog without his showing flight responses. Once the dog was allowed to bite, he did so, he was pretty serious about it, but not very committed at all, very short bites, 1 or 2 with lots of acting was about all he was good for. Another friend of mine was working the same dog, separately from me in a more traditional fashion, on earlier and separate occasions, with very traditional prey building and more fun stuff, as the group we had at the time was mostly focused on Schutzhund work. He did do somewhat OK with that, and as my work with him progresses a little, he was able to be worked on a sleeve carefully in prey, with his newest bestest buddy, the helper. started him on the flirt pole with rags, then rags in the hand, and then introduced each progressive prey item again on the flirt pole and working up finally on a sleeve on the man. I started my work with him, after he got to a certain point on the sleeve with the other guy, to get a little more intensity out of the dog. All in all, the dog eventually could do some ok biting on both of us, but he was not ever going to be able to pass a schutzhund exam, or be a dog I would ever put into a PPD role. He was able to do some biting for fun though, liked the tugs the best from what I recall, even though he was just not really suited for it at all.

When you say the SCH training is slow going, what do you mean exactly, why would you say it is going slow?

Most of the BRT I saw were already mature, 2 were sub-adults in the 12-15 month range, no young pups.

My opinion is that a couple of them were ok enough to get out and so something with toys, and a couple we did get biting on sleeves, and one on a suit, and hidden equipment. But they were not up to par with decent dogs from various other offbreeds I have worked, which is lots of them...and none of them appeared to really enjoy the work, as they were more defensive dogs, but lacked the confidence to really get anywhere with them, when using traditional straight progression through prey, or other routes.

The people I met with them were also doing other things with them that they did do fairly well with I think, agility, AKC OB and Rally, and of course with participating at conformation shows, one also plays around with tracking I think, and actual dog dancing...so you might have a dance partner there off the training field as well 

here is a video of one being worked by Jimmy V. If this video is of the dogs first bitework type session, or even one of his first few, he is actually a better dog for it, than any of the ones I have seen. The one I put the most work into was about at this level, after lots of time, and worked in a very similar way, you can see that the dog is in his mind approaching this in a serious fashion, and getting little satisfaction for his efforts, but there is something there for sure to build on, like I said, he looks to be a better dog than the ones I came across, but far from ideal for bitework in my opinion. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFN7-Sja6CM

I just cringed when I saw pictures of some the dogs I worked on breeders websites, that claimed the dogs were good protection dogs, the people posted pictures from some of our sessions, to "show what the dogs can do", and sure, the pictures made the dogs look impressive...but they were not....I am pretty sure the lady that owns the dog in the video above, posted this video to "show what the dogs can do".

here is another video of same dog on a sleeve. looking better again, than any of the ones I came across.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7aNnJX_kBbQ&list=UUWavjpErTS2c7ycTOnVWj6w&index=5

here is a video of one being worked, in a more pressure minded way, looks like very beginning work with a more confident adult animal, and the dog looks WAY better than any of the ones I came across. If any of the people had brought dogs comparable to this dog, I might have had different experiences with them, and am sure that I/we could have gotten a lot more out of the dog than the ones we had come to us. This dog has decent enough prey, and good enough confidence it appears in the video at least.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjGo8O9t69k

this one also looks to be a far better dog than the ones I had exposure to.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzFPPmSDrcw

I found these videos while looking for working BRT on google this morning, and I wish I had the chance to get a couple of them in front of me, my initial post may have gone differently, had I gotten the chance to work with those dogs, that appear to be better dogs.

I have an acquaintance that is a member of the Woring Black Russian Terrier Association here in the USA. I perused their website and looked at 100's of pictures, and found mostly all pictures from conformation or akc type events, a few agiltiy pics, and a couple pictures of bitework, and one of the videos I posted...and that is a group, that on paper and in spirit, is dedicated to promote the working abilities of the BRT here. Might want to look them up..but like I said, I did not see hardly anything going on in the way of bite work with any dogs.

This is your breed, and you did mention possible differences in the dog mindset between the US and Russia. (I have watched lots of Russian vids of other breeds personally of all kinds).

DO you have any links to anything that shows what a good BRT is doing in bite work, in any country, other than the ones I have shown here? I cannot research russian stuff very well honestly. I was able to find quite a few pictures and videos of the dogs doing things, like OB and agility, but hardly any biting...please share some if you come across any.

Again did not mean to come off harshly, just answered the questions directly and honestly. 

So people are doing things with them obviously, showing what they can do..which is various things, with varying results. certainly some will be able to do bitework in some fashion, among other things to keep them active.

If you get time, please share about your dogs, what you mean by going slow specifically in the SCH work, and what you mean by PPD training, and share any videos if you have them.

And follow Daves advice...


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## Chernij Bogatir (Dec 12, 2012)

Rick,

Thanks for your comments. Make sense. I say we know a lot, I mean about history, health, we can read read Russian documents, competition rules, those things. We can talk to show breeders and one who worked with dogs in the Russian army but we don't know enough to know the questions to ask and can not call each day after training. We probably make a lot of mistakes when they were young, not enough tug, obedience like family dog. We trust our trainer but to learn what others have seen maybe helps. 

We want to do for them what they will do as individual. We also think a lot about your last comment.


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## Chernij Bogatir (Dec 12, 2012)

Joby,

Thank you! We know these video and maybe even have links to some people. 
I will look some things as you request. 

Here is one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMAy8l_-TM4

South Africa maybe. Only one dog and young maybe year, not all BRT - I know.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Chernij Bogatir said:


> Joby,
> 
> Thank you! We know these video and maybe even have links to some people.
> I will look some things as you request.
> ...


thanks for that as well..the better dogs seem to offer some sense in believing what all the "information" and history that is written and posted all over the net...on all the websites, even if the people behind many of those websites do not have dogs that would live up to the impression given about the breed.


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## Chernij Bogatir (Dec 12, 2012)

Joby

Also, thank you for time and thought in your response, not just for comments but because also they make me feel more confident our trainer helps us get the most of what our dogs came with.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Chernji ...
don't forget this ... i tell it to everyone i work with
YOU are the trainer of your dog and it is learning something (good or bad) every waking moment you are with it ... the "trainer" just helps you train better
- actually i really hate it when people say "i'm no trainer" :-(
- your goal with any trainer is for them to teach YOU (not your dog) as much as they know, and then you should move on 
- a good trainer teaches you a good system to train ... there is no magic here. they probably understand and "think" it better than you, and have better timing, etc, but if you are trying hard and still not catching on and making progress, it is the TRAINER's fault, and almost never the dog's fault 
- unless you are a professional with a professional dog that comes to you trained, you are not just a "handler" 
- too many dog owners are "leash holders" in my opinion, and when you are with your trainer i certainly hope they DEMO stuff and then let you do 90% of ALL the work and have a reason WHY for everything they show you
- last but not least, we all make mistakes; just like good trainers still make mistakes ...... it's only when you keep repeating them that it becomes a negative and you should start worrying about em


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## Chernij Bogatir (Dec 12, 2012)

Rick, 

Yes you are right. Actually my girlfriend is the trainer, and she is the one learning the most and going to all sessions. I try to do what she tells me to do and to act the same way for dogs as she does (and I try not to argue politics, religion, or training with her... I am not so good at it though ;-)). But I am good for research and observation because I am maybe not so close all the time.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

I would concentrate on Schutzhund/IPO before doing PP.
Does he have a BH or any titles yet? A IPO III with a BRT would be quite an accomplishment. Maybe go to the AWDF IPO Championship representing the breed someday?


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## Chernij Bogatir (Dec 12, 2012)

This answer could lead to arguments but this is not my plan. We work ScH for about a year now and we made progress but I do not think they have precision OB and they "loose motivation" in so much repetition. They also train for tracking but I don't think it's their thing. Then we read what the breed was made for and we look and read about how Russians test its different (loose obedience and more scenario type work) and it looks like we are try to put a round peg in a square hole. I know, stop thinking about breed and think about dog. I do. Also for me (only me) ScH is amazing and I have so much respect for the training but for me it is very artificial. Again, thinking about the dogs we want to find training for what they have not what we wish they have. For sure we continue to work OB no matter what but not looking for so much precision. There are BRT in ScH in US and other places. 

http://youtu.be/UKcYdWZxJwo

http://youtu.be/_YGoO4MEtw8


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## Natasha Keating (Apr 8, 2010)

Chernij Bogatir said:


> Then we read what the breed was made for and we look and read about how Russians test its different (loose obedience and more scenario type work) http://


 What Russian tests(loose ob) you are referring to?(just out of curiousity)


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## Chernij Bogatir (Dec 12, 2012)

Окд , зкс. and кд. We have description of the competitions and have watched videos too. The OB rules are more loose and from watching videos not so much concern for precision like ScH. Dog still has to do it all but response is more like utility, job done, less like show.


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## Chernij Bogatir (Dec 12, 2012)

Some more video, but I post and don't know what I am seeing, good dog, bad dog, good trainer, bad trainer, bad good decoy, bad decoy or what...so we watch videos but don't know what we see and they are other dogs not ours, so only a picture of what is possible for some dogs. 

http://youtu.be/iq00-gf26bs

http://youtu.be/8m3eTjAGwnI

http://youtu.be/RdhPB8Ba0lk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ov3So-2GqY&feature=youtube_gdata_player


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> I would concentrate on Schutzhund/IPO before doing PP.
> Does he have a BH or any titles yet? A IPO III with a BRT would be quite an accomplishment. Maybe go to the AWDF IPO Championship representing the breed someday?


+1 

You will be around GOOD trainers more likely in a sport world vs. a PP trainer. I have seen a few IPO people who can do PP but not the other way around....


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## Chernij Bogatir (Dec 12, 2012)

Joby,

Now I try to answer your question, what we think PPD is. I think this is a good question. 

We don't know! 

Just like we thought all training, police, ScH, etc., was the same we find out there are many definitions for PPD too. For me, I imagine something simple ( or maybe not simple). Good OB. Dog is guardian of the family. When my girlfriend is with the dog, the dog senses add to her senses, dog is medium suspicious to danger. Dog will alert on command - show of force, as a last solution dog will make a zone around her and if the bad guy enters, dog convinces bad guy better to leave. No need to hold bad guy, we are not the police. Dog must be good in public accept people and attention but "aloof" focused on her. Should be good with children too. Better if it accepts other dogs but some dogs just don't like some dogs, same as people.

There is more and I think that to ask the question is good. Hard to design a car if you don't know what you want it to look like. 

(Sorry for your trouble. All families are crazy)


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re: "Dog is guardian of the family. When my girlfriend is with the dog, the dog senses add to her senses, dog is medium suspicious to danger. Dog will alert on command - show of force, as a last solution dog will make a zone around her and if the bad guy enters, dog convinces bad guy better to leave. No need to hold bad guy, we are not the police. Dog must be good in public accept people and attention but "aloof" focused on her. Should be good with children too. Better if it accepts other dogs but some dogs just don't like some dogs, same as people."

i understand your concept completely, but why don't you realize it is hard enough to train a HUMAN to do this, so it would seem to be MUCH harder (and i think impossible) for a dog to master what you just wrote. 

so, you have shown a lot of BRT vids. 

can you show us some PPD training vids that would demo this type of family PPD training you are describing ?

until i see one, i believe PPD's are just dogs who will bite people with different levels of owner control, and most would NOT be safe in a family environment with children, independently "defending" on their own. of course the PPD people disagree completely with this and claim there is some kind of "bond" that makes this happen reliably and safely, and that the dog will know when to defend. 
*** when i see it demonstrated for real i will believe it. 
..... but still, most PPD people say the dog will defend (BITE) when it is needed because they know the dog and trust it completely 

the internet is HUGE....worldwide....hundreds of thousands of all types of dog "training" clips. Many people talk about PPD training but no one can show how it is done .... they only show basic bitweork video clips in VERY simulated settings ](*,)
.....SHOULDN'T THAT TELL YOU SOMETHING ?????

have you shown videos of Working BRT's training and demonstrating "personal protection" of a FAMILY ??
- was that a trait written down somewhere in a breed standard or breed history, or a fact that can be seen for real ?

sorry, but for me PPD training is just a mixture of a dream, a myth and a lot of blind trust

SchH is a nice sport that will teach your dog control ... you don't need PRECISION to get it done; just a nice dog and good training control. i think you gave up because yopu lost interest in the training and got bored, NOT because it was NOT SUITED for your dog's genetic makeup...

- of course i haven't seen your training or dog's in person so i could be way off in my evaluation too :razz::razz:

time will tell whatever you decide...good luck

i'll stay out of this thread from now on since i feel i am beating you up repeating things over and over .... sorry for that too; it's not my intent


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Well, I think the OP would like to train his dog in something related to what he was bred to do. However, I don't think sport or what's considered PPD mimics that heritage. For the OP: is there anything about your life that indicates that you NEED a PPD? Dogs are happy being companions to their people. It take a very good trainer to work a dog in bitework and from the scenario perspective and that's with the breeds that they are used to working--mainly GSDs and Mals. There are a lot of screwed up backyard trainers that will say they can train your dog to be that PPD. However, in reality, they don't have a clue. So be careful and ask yourself is it worth it screwing up your dog. At the end of the day, a good sport trainer is probably the safest way to go. I don't know why a BRT can't do precision obedience if you tap into what they consider reward for those behaviors. I think in some aspects they can be simialr to bouviers and may have some common heritage. There are other protection venues other than Schutzhund. Bottom line though regardless of venue, you have to ask yourself if the dog has the basic characteristics that most protection trainers utilize to train the dogs. If not, maybe protection sports aren't the best choice for that dog regardless of breed protection heritage.

T


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Dave Colborn said:


> +1
> 
> You will be around GOOD trainers more likely in a sport world vs. a PP trainer. I have seen a few IPO people who can do PP but not the other way around....


I have seen this. There are quite a few guys in the Chicagoland area that got their roots in PP training that are now training IPO and other bite sports , in addition to training PP or "street" dogs. (whatever a street dog is  )
I am pretty sure that is probably not such a rare occurance, unless we are just talking about whackjob trainers in general..


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Chernij Bogatir said:


> Окд , зкс. and кд. We have description of the competitions and have watched videos too. The OB rules are more loose and from watching videos not so much concern for precision like ScH. Dog still has to do it all but response is more like utility, job done, less like show.


do you have videos of these tests?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Chernij Bogatir said:


> Joby,
> 
> Now I try to answer your question, what we think PPD is. I think this is a good question.
> 
> ...


Thanks...yes I am convinced that EVERYONE is crazy...depending on how you look at it 

I was helping a friend clean out some stuff from his house as his brother just passed away...we lined up all of his brothers OLD computers to toss in the trash..his NEW computer is about 9 yrs old, and he had 8 other computers stashed around the house...

I went to take them to the trash....and my buddy stops me and says..hey what are you doing? you cant just throw those away...we have to take out all the hard drives and destroy them, so no one can use them to get any private information...

I tried to tell him that I highly doubted anyone was going to dig at the landfill, looking for his brothers super old computers to get the hard drives...but then soon after that, I still spent a couple hours pulling out all the harddrives and smashing them with a sledgehammer...which I thought was a little crazy


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## Chernij Bogatir (Dec 12, 2012)

rick smith said:


> re: "Dog is guardian of the family. When my girlfriend is with the dog, the dog senses add to her senses, dog is medium suspicious to danger. Dog will alert on command - show of force, as a last solution dog will make a zone around her and if the bad guy enters, dog convinces bad guy better to leave. No need to hold bad guy, we are not the police. Dog must be good in public accept people and attention but "aloof" focused on her. Should be good with children too. Better if it accepts other dogs but some dogs just don't like some dogs, same as people."
> 
> i understand your concept completely, but why don't you realize it is hard enough to train a HUMAN to do this, so it would seem to be MUCH harder (and i think impossible) for a dog to master what you just wrote.
> 
> ...


Rick,

Thank you for comments. Look no need to worry. Maybe I don't like broccoli and you say but is good, I say no I don't like, you say I have special recipe, I say no I don't like, you say but it will make you handsome... OK Rick let's talk about broccoli!

My original purpose was to talk with people with BRT experience but why not listen to other ideas? Am I scared that I will not survive if I change my mind? Learning is from listening too. Because we are what we are and we think what we think, sometimes this is hard, sometimes easy. But I hope I can always listen, maybe something I hear today makes sense tomorrow. 

Don't give up. My girlfriend is in a sport club, she works with a trainer that is focused on sport, but knows police, and protection also. So we will do the best for the dogs first. It just helps to compare experience some times and ask questions. 

Also you speak some truth, to get precision "I" have to have the patience for it too.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

You write a little like Dr Seuss. That's kinda neat.


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## Chernij Bogatir (Dec 12, 2012)

Thanks? ;-) Sometimes we get lost in words and miss ideas, maybe it helps to think in a simple way.


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## Natasha Keating (Apr 8, 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_G_wYiGNVwU
окд ,зкс
I don't know the rules and can't judge if it's a good work or not


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## Chernij Bogatir (Dec 12, 2012)

Thank you! I have PDF of rules but don't know how to post.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

There is a family that lives by me who have two BRT's they are complete beasts and I wouldn't **** with them.
Somebody did though and they got nailed very badly.
I have talked to them at great length about their dogs, while their dogs were there, they have perfectly stable temperaments.
They are very slow to mature but are serious dogs as adults.
They are also 'guard' dogs rather than criminal apprehension dogs, think mastiff.
They are extremely protective of their owners and can have a tendency to be dog aggressive as a breed.
This is the info I gleaned off them, not my opinion apart from the first sentence.


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## Chernij Bogatir (Dec 12, 2012)

Interested to know more detail if you have time. Do you know the situation? What were they like when you were around them? How did they act towards you and owners? How old?


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

One was 6 years I think, th male, the female was 2-3 years if I remember correctly. They were very nice dogs, petting was no problem, they were quite velcro like dogs (think doberman but not so bad) they accepted me perfectly well and my dogs, however they were watching everything.
The difference between the younger bitch and the male was very stark in terms of maturity, more so than in say a doberman or bull terrier. 
I can't remember the details of the situation, but I can tell you one thing underneath their shaggy coat that male was the most solid dog I have ever met, more so than any doberman, GSD, mastiff even bull terrier. 
I personally think what is going on in the first vids that were posted is the dog is young and unsure even without knowing anything about BRT or met any.
Dude that owned the BRT's said they were very stubborn to train, but he uses the old school compulsion methods so I can't comment on that.
They were however excellently trained dogs and under perfect control, all our dogs were off leash when I first met them and have been every time I have seen them since. When I saw his wife walking them down the road she had leashes on them as we walked together I mentioned that they were very relaxed on leash and she said that she didn't really need leashes but was just complying with the law. I can relate to that as I am the same.


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## Chernij Bogatir (Dec 12, 2012)

Thank you Matt for your thoughts. Your experience similar to mine. When I met BRTs first few times 12 years ago, very few in U.S. Dogs I met were older and match your description of male. Some Russians say don't even think to train bite young, wait until 2 or 3 because mature dog is late and so different from young dog that you will be surprised. Sometimes I wonder if I am impatient. We see Mals that look like the are ready to work a few months old! Probably the same for anyone, sometimes you just want to get there already. But maybe a little patience is a little more important for BRT.


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## Karen M Wood (Jun 23, 2012)

I have not trained any BRT in any thing but being accepting of dog grooming. One of my neighbors has had two so far. Both show dog. Female was very nice, easy going and willing worker. Did nice basic OB, no protection training that i know of. Nice dog to groom. Very sweet and easy to work with. (But OMG they have way too much hair!!!! takes hours and hours to groom) She dropped dead on the 4th of july of unknown reasons. She was 1.5 years old. No necropsey was done so we have no idea what happened.
They imported a male from Russia for new show dog. He is very nice also, bit more stubborn for grooming. But still a nice dog. Have not seen any training on him. But when i walk by their house he beats on the windows like he's coming through the glass any second. Not animal aggressive at all.
Good mannered for handling and I think he would be the better of the two for training. But right now he is being shown and so nothing else matters but ribbons. I'd be curious to see if he held any true drive. But you an only work BRT in florida in the winter because all that coat will make then drop dead in this heat. 
To me they are much like a Bouve but much calmer. And black!
Good luck with working your dogs. Any training is better then nothing. sorry i don't have anything more useful to add.
K


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## Chernij Bogatir (Dec 12, 2012)

Ok everyone. Sorry, put fingers in ears, quick grooming advice. 

K. 
Thank you for your thoughts. This is for you it will help a lot:


http://d-keitos.narod.ru/QUESTIONS/195a.htm

(Sorry wrong link first time)

For us two dogs, wash, full cut, three hours but it took 2 years to learn (we never groomed any dog before). Cut is full scissors cut with trimmer for pants and neck. You can do military cut (like puppy cut) but for my girlfriend cut is also national pride. Must groom every month! Also coat changes between 1 and 2, takes almost a year (miserable). We cross military cut and show cut. So looks good from distance but better for working. 

Why people have BRT in Florida I don't know. STUPID and hard on dog. One top show breeder in Florida too. Why? Ours sleep by open door all winter in NW! Even mild summer here can be hard for them.


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## Chernij Bogatir (Dec 12, 2012)

K no offense I hope. Went to see family there with dogs. Only 5 days. You could see energy level drop. Kept them in ocean as much as possible.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Chernij Bogatir said:


> Thank you Matt for your thoughts. Your experience similar to mine. When I met BRTs first few times 12 years ago, very few in U.S. Dogs I met were older and match your description of male. Some Russians say don't even think to train bite young, wait until 2 or 3 because mature dog is late and so different from young dog that you will be surprised. Sometimes I wonder if I am impatient. We see Mals that look like the are ready to work a few months old! Probably the same for anyone, sometimes you just want to get there already. But maybe a little patience is a little more important for BRT.


Yes, push them too far too early and they will loose interest.



Karen M Wood said:


> I have not trained any BRT in any thing but being accepting of dog grooming. One of my neighbors has had two so far. Both show dog. Female was very nice, easy going and willing worker. Did nice basic OB, no protection training that i know of. Nice dog to groom. Very sweet and easy to work with. (But OMG they have way too much hair!!!! takes hours and hours to groom) She dropped dead on the 4th of july of unknown reasons. She was 1.5 years old. No necropsey was done so we have no idea what happened.
> They imported a male from Russia for new show dog. He is very nice also, bit more stubborn for grooming. But still a nice dog. Have not seen any training on him. But when i walk by their house he beats on the windows like he's coming through the glass any second. Not animal aggressive at all.
> Good mannered for handling and I think he would be the better of the two for training. But right now he is being shown and so nothing else matters but ribbons. I'd be curious to see if he held any true drive. But you an only work BRT in florida in the winter because all that coat will make then drop dead in this heat.
> To me they are much like a Bouve but much calmer. And black!
> ...


Probably Cardiomyopathy:



> Latest research shows increasing problems with heart, like cardiomyopathy which causes sudden death in puppies or young dogs but very little information exists on how widespread it is in the breed. We try to have our dogs tested by board-certified cardiologist because we don't feel that evaluation by regular vet has enough merit to be submitted to OFA. Cardiomyopathy can not be detected by just listening to the heart, but requires ECHO cardiogram, done by a specialist.


From BRT website

*from *http://www.russianguard.com/health.html (URL added by mod)
*Please always supply credit and a link with any copied and pasted text. Thank you.
*


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## Chernij Bogatir (Dec 12, 2012)

Now you will get me fired up! American Show Breeders. Pah! Know nothing!

1. They think they made friends with Russians but they are wrong. Many times sold not pick or even good dog. 
2. American breeders feed dogs crap grain food and then wonder why dogs develop badly, get sick. 
3. Americans change standard and shape of dog, screwing them up just like show GSD. No consideration for work only for confirmation. 
4. Russians don't see health issues like American dogs. Wonder how Americans mess up health of dog so much. 
5. We get our dogs from Russian breeders in Canada. Much better. 

I am sorry for my anger but we see American breeders so unhealthy themselves, if you can't take care of your health how will you take care of dogs health?!


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## Chernij Bogatir (Dec 12, 2012)

American show breeders. Pah! Now you get me fired up!

American breeders think they made friends with Russians but did not get pick, often not even good dog. They feed dog cr*p grain food and wonder why dogs get sick and develop poorly. Russians did not see hardly any health issues like American breeders. Then Americans change standard and try to change shape of dog like GSD. Russians wonder how Americans have messed of good breed in just few generations. They never think of temperament or work ability. We got ours from Russian breeders in Canada, much better. 

Sorry but it is a sore point. We see American breeders sometimes. So many are unhealthy themselves. How are they going to raise healthy dog?


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Just look what happened to the Doberman......

Just look what happened to the Doberman......


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Did you have to say it twice Matt? :-(

There are still some nice working Dobermanns out there. You just have to know where to look (not in the show ring ;-))
I actually think there are two separate breeds now Doberman Pinschers and Dobermanns


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Chernij Bogatir said:


> American show breeders. Pah! Now you get me fired up!


Actually this is not an "American show breeders" issue, it's the difference in view points, show vs working everywhere. 

You can go to just about any country in the world and pick just about any breed out of the terrier, working, retrieving, hunting, or herding breeds, and you will see there is a vast difference in breeding philosophies and consequently physical differences between the show lines and the working lines, obviously, if there weren't differences, there would be just plain lines, no delineation. In some breeds the differences are more subtle than others, but there are differences, nevertheless.

I hear this from all my friends, in the various breeds, the world over.

I'm not a show person, so what they do, or what they like, is not my problem. The only thing that gets me going is when show people try to tell you show lines can work the same as working lines, that's laughable.


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## Chernij Bogatir (Dec 12, 2012)

Probably true. Not good.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

I agree with Susan and Thomas, there is a breeder in Tennessee that produces the most wonderful working Dobes I have ever seen. 
I was more talking of the issue of genetically inherited DCM which is throughout working and show and pet dobermans.
Don't know whether it is genetic in BRT but I wouldn't mind betting it is.
I won't go on about it though, I get really annoyed and kicked off forums because of that subject.


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## Chernij Bogatir (Dec 12, 2012)

Matt,

Probably this is discussion for another thread. This thread is for working discussion please. 

But in any case why would you say something like this? BRT in no way related to Doberman and no data to support this. 

I give you an example. I worked for famous Italian vehicle manufacturer. We have problem say with wires pinching and shorting. In all bikes this is going to happen some. But what is important is how often. 1 in 10, 1 in 100, 1 in 1000?

I study genetics in college. Too many backyard geneticists. Act like they know something about genetics but not know much, this is a complicated topic and even geneticists learning more about environment effect, genetics influence, polygenic traits, etc. A little knowledge is dangerous. This breeder you link should say "we track health issues for our breed, please report health issues to us" then can check percentages, lines, etc. but general statement with no evidence is just crazy.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Chernij Bogatir said:


> Matt,
> 
> Probably this is discussion for another thread. This thread is for working discussion please.
> 
> ...


Hi, Chernij,

Please don't forget the required intro/bio here: 
http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f20/


Thank you!


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Chernij Bogatir said:


> Matt,
> 
> Probably this is discussion for another thread. This thread is for working discussion please.
> 
> ...


I never said the doberman was in any way related to the BRT, however unless the dogs were all alchoholics, all had the same viral infection or all ate the same crap food, then the cardiomyopathy is probably genetic. Stick your head in the sand for all I care. It could be hyperthryoidism I suppose, but wait, that is relatively rare in dogs as a whole so not likely that. Maybe the dogs were all diabetic?

I didn't link any breeder regarding DCM, I was replying to Thomas about some people still breeding good dobes.

Excuse me but how do you know I havn't got a PHD in genetics?
Bit of an assumption don't you think?
I don't, but I know alot about dobermans and DCM.

Help yourself from now on bud.


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## Robley Smith (Apr 20, 2012)

The relationship between doberman and brt was simply the destructive effects of breeding for show.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Exactly, thanks.


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## Chernij Bogatir (Dec 12, 2012)

Matt Vandart said:


> Yes, push them too far too early and they will loose interest.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sorry Matt, 

I am confused but I thought this was your link. This is a breeder. (breeding winter dog in Mississippi!) and you say I wouldn't mind thinking BRT are same (or something like that) Maybe I misunderstand your statement if so I did not mean to.

As far as I know only anecdotes, no numbers. No one has numbers, knows lines, etc. No one tracking this information. Not saying you know anything or nothing about genetics just saying lots of things said in general with no science. This breeder are saying this or that problem has been seen does not help. This is not good scientific method to identify true problems. That is all. 

In any case hoping thread can return to talk of working BRT. 

Thank you for your thoughts anyway.


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## Chernij Bogatir (Dec 12, 2012)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Hi, Chernij,
> 
> Please don't forget the required intro/bio here:
> http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f20/
> ...


Connie, 

Not sure what you mean. I told about us in first post. Think is enough, yes?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Chernij Bogatir said:


> Connie,
> 
> Not sure what you mean. I told about us in first post. Think is enough, yes?



No, sorry.

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f20/


Thank you!


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Is your name also spelled CHERNIY BOGATYR ?
Do you know Milan Cherniy Bogatyr?


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## Chernij Bogatir (Dec 12, 2012)

Connie Sutherland said:


> No, sorry.
> 
> http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f20/
> 
> ...


I don't understand. I say something about us and dogs. Why we want to talk on forum. Don't need so many words not so much to say.


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## Chernij Bogatir (Dec 12, 2012)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Is your name also spelled CHERNIY BOGATYR ?
> Do you know Milan Cherniy Bogatyr?


No, sorry. Strange combination of names from different places sounds like could be interesting person!

But yes, name gets spelled a lot of ways here in U.S. because normally written in Cyrillic alphabet.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Chernij Bogatir said:


> I don't understand. I say something about us and dogs. Why we want to talk on forum. Don't need so many words not so much to say.


It's required.

Everyone does an intro/bio post here: 
http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f20/


Thank you.


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## Chernij Bogatir (Dec 12, 2012)

Connie Sutherland said:


> It's required.
> 
> Everyone does an intro/bio post here:
> http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f20/
> ...


I don't understand. You post link to things say from new members but I say those things too in my first post. You want me to say same thing again in new location? I can do that if what you want.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Chernij Bogatir said:


> I don't understand. You post link to things say from new members but I say those things too in my first post. You want me to say same thing again in new location? I can do that if what you want.



Please post an intro in the required section. Thank you.


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## Karen M Wood (Jun 23, 2012)

On this forum it is good manners to introduce yourself in the "New Members Bio" So we may get to know who you are a little. Like saying "Hi I'm Karen Wood, I live in Tampa, Florida and i have American bulldogs. I have 1 bulldog i am training for IPO"
See just easy greeting.
Make Connie's life easier by going along and say Hi to everyone. 
And Merry Christmas!
Karen


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## Chernij Bogatir (Dec 12, 2012)

Karen M Wood said:


> On this forum it is good manners to introduce yourself in the "New Members Bio" So we may get to know who you are a little. Like saying "Hi I'm Karen Wood, I live in Tampa, Florida and i have American bulldogs. I have 1 bulldog i am training for IPO"
> See just easy greeting.
> Make Connie's life easier by going along and say Hi to everyone.
> And Merry Christmas!
> Karen


Hi Karen,

Ok I think I have done as asked. Nice to meet you. (By the way Christmas not until January 7! ;-))


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## Jim Leon (Jan 21, 2010)

Hey Chernij, I see you're posting at another forum as "Will J" and over there you claim it's your girlfriend training the BRTs. And the really funny thing is as Will J you post in plain English, when you become Chernij you write as though you're speaking with a Russian accent.
Do you think you're fooling anyone? When Russians write in English it is usually grammatically correct. When they try to speak the language, that's when they stumble a bit.
I'm calling bullshit on you and I'm going to call you out on the other forum as well.
Merry Christmas, ....Comrade Will J.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jim Leon said:


> Hey Chernij, I see you're posting at another forum as "Will J" and over there you claim it's your girlfriend training the BRTs. And the really funny thing is as Will J you post in plain English, when you become Chernij you write as though you're speaking with a Russian accent.
> *Do you think you're fooling anyone?*


_
"Do you think you're fooling anyone?"_

Not on this board, anyway. 

http://www.WorkingDogForum.com/vBulletin/f20/hi-usa-25468/index2.html#post365261


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