# Bloodhounds vs Shepherds?? :)



## Jehane Michael Le Grange (Feb 24, 2009)

Hi guys,

I only really have very basic experience dealing with law enforcement tracking in South Africa. Firstly, the training received here is all based on sports tracking and conducted in wilderness settings (I have never seen hard surfacing trackers) Although our police patrol dogs (predominantly GSD, Malinois and Rottweilers) are trained as "trackers" the training is limited to windscenting and I like to think of it more as on lead area searches. In certain of the areas, bloodhounds are used but only to follow tracks on real rural settings such as fields and wooded areas, usually after the patrol dogs have failed. 

I believe tha due to the high crime rate for instances such as burglary and theft, vehicle related crimes taking place on an everyday basis, there is a real need for high quality tracker dogs. Although I used my own dog in the private security industry, doing armed response work, his initial training was aimed at sports tracking and then "converted" to live tracking. thankfully, being the sort of dog he was, he didnt have too many issues with this although there are certain facets of his initial training that created limitations.

My question is, to all of those people in law enforcement that have had the pleasure of working with really high class tracker dogs with high find ratios:

If a suspect had kidnapped your child and run a track through some suburban streets and then into a wooded area/field , would you use a bloodhound to find the bad guy or the shepherd (mali or GSD)??

This is the sort of track we would probably need to do the most of here. burglary cases in residential areas, where the suspect flees through the streets into a wooded area and hides. tracks usually 1km to 3km in length.

I have heard all the claims about the bloodhounds scenting ability and have watched countless Youtube videos of them but have never really been impressed with what I have seen on any bloodhound video exceot maybe the video on Mythbusters. I was far more impressed with the European shepherds and their hardsurface tracking. The bloodhounds seem hard to get focus and intensity for the track or am I just mistaken??

I have other questions pertaining to tracking in specific but will post a new thread for them.

Any views and advise will be greatly appreciated!


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

I think this bloodhound thing is a myth. Most PDs use shepherds and malis as dual purpose k9s that do all sorts of tracking. Hard surface tracking is very common in holland(probably originated there) and they use mainly dutchies and malinois. Even though the bloodhound may be as good a tracker i doubt they have the endurance of shepherds and malinois so.......
I'm not a k9 guy so you should talk to Jim Nash or any of the other k9 officers here.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

You can easily get a GSD , Mal or any of the other typical Patrol dog breeds to do what you are asking . I'm no tracking expert but our dogs , all GSD , Mals and Dutchies , do a very good job tracking . I haven't seen alot of Bloodhounds but of the ones I have seen our dogs do just as well . 

Hard to give advice that will do tracking justice off the top off my head but I think Leerburg's DVDs on how the RCMP train their tracking dogs is a good place to start . I've heard there are some DVDs out there on how the Dutch train hardsurface tracking that are good also .


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## mel boschwitz (Apr 23, 2010)

Just curious as to what everyone is referring to when they say a bloodhounds scenting ability is a myth. I have yet to see a "pointy ear" run a trail with the same age or contamination as easily as the hounds I run. There are definately lots of people who exaggerate what their dogs can do, but remember that a bloodhound has been developed for 1000 years to run trails. You need to figure out what you're going to need the dog to do most. If its apprehension at the end of the trail, then a hound probably not your best choice. If you have the manpower for cover officers and expect to run trails 24+hrs old in a heavily contaminated area, you might want to consider a hound. Also remember that hounds arent usually article driven so if your looking for evidence on a hounds trail, hounds will frequently run farther off trail and usually dont care about evidence unless its really heavily imbued with scent.

FWIW, my area has 2 non scent discriminatory tracking dogs and my hounds and my hounds can typically perform better.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Mel 

How do the hounds do in urban areas? The ones I have seen, have been very good in the woods. Havent seen one work in our city yet.


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## Jehane Michael Le Grange (Feb 24, 2009)

mel boschwitz said:


> FWIW, my area has 2 non scent discriminatory tracking dogs and my hounds and my hounds can typically perform better.


 
Thanks for the response. I am very intrigued by the bloodhound. How do you start the track with them?(how do they locate the start) and how do you utilize them? As a pack or seperate? Do you use scent articles? Track on lead?

How did you go about training them from birth, what reward method and from what age? 

In our areas, we would commonly have a burglary or house robbery taking place in a suburb where the criminals will run on foot through a few streets, lets say 1km before entering a bush area or field or wooded area for about another 1-2km and either lay low or continue into shacks in the bushy areas/townships on the outskirts our town. Would you be abe to deploy your bloodhounds in this sort of setting? in other words, locate the track from the house and follow it for a few blocks before entering the bush and ultimately locate the suspect? I am not really concerned with the apprehension at the end since it can always be arranged to have a patrol dog nearby once the suspect is located. The recovery of evidence would usually mean the recovery of the stolen goods, so I am also not too hassled by that since its quite easy to spot a plasma screen TV if the dog is more or less in the right area while tracking. Basically i am interested in a dog that can locate and follow the track in the above example. What is your approximate find ratio in this setting??

Do you perhaps have any videos of your bloodhounds tracking??

SOrry for all the questions, I am a complete newby to bloodhounds and have always been fascinated by the claims of their handlers but can't believe that they are so under utilized if they can do what is claimed. I have not seen many used for other scenting disciplines either such as detection work or sports tracking. and the videos on youtube show handlers that guide the dog on leash as they know where the track leads already, which is very unrealistic. I would love to see a video where the blood hound is given an area to locate the start, or a scent article and works the track out by himself over some really tough terrain, etc and a decent distance to locate the person.


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## mel boschwitz (Apr 23, 2010)

Only difference i've found between urban and rural is age of track they can realisticslly run. Since urban has less vegetation to trap scent theres more of a time limit-in my experience at least. 24hrs in my urban area is very realistic for mine. I find less of a life span for a trail done only in a vehicle, but then again, i've never trained it past a few hours. Have hearf of dogs who can run it much older but have never seen or experienced it myself. 29th AMJ 2nd edition has requirements as to starting trail in reasonable vicinity as to where suspect is believed to have been so in real life i start them in that vicinity but in training will start them wherever and make them search for trail by casting. Mine work on lead only. I could never keep up otherwise. They will happily work urban to rural to houses, thru doors, elevators, stairs, whatever. Bloodhounds underutilized in my area in LE and am working hard to get my dept more accepting of it. Its new and strange to them but slowly and surely, and we just keep working and training all sorts of weird scenarios. Lol


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## mel boschwitz (Apr 23, 2010)

Also wanted to add that hounds are typically trailers and not trackers so depending on age/environment, may work way off trail, making recovery if evidence a lot harder then running a tracking dog. Which could lead to some evidentiary issues if items later found well off trail that hound followed, unless other evidence discovered with it, i.e. fingerprints, serial numbers, etc. My big male has been known to cut off several hundred yards of trail, if conditions are right. My female generally runs closer to track, but she'll cut things off too. Although their training has focused on getting to subject at end as soon as possible and perhaps if hound was trained different then the way they run would be different.

I think hounds are underutilized in LE because they are typically single purpose dogs, and its generally more cost effective to have more traditional dual purpose patrol dog. Generally speaking, hounds want to trail more then anything and as far as finding drugs they would probably want to run a trail to the stash. Lol.


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## scott zimmerman (Dec 7, 2009)

I have handled and had finds with three breeds (bloodhound, GSD, and currently a mal). My opinion is that though the hounds are excellent natural trackers, the claims of their abilities are often exaggerated, ( for example, someone once told me the breed could successfully track someone through a crowded NYC street 48 hours later and was serious about the claim!). I believe they track for the track itself as very few care about balls, toys, etc. Mine loved physical/verbal praise, but then was quick to try to find a new track to do it all over again. Generally, trying to teach them to track using methods used on pointy eared breeds (like tracking through drive, using articles, etc.) isn't as successful. They are also far more independent than mals/GSDs and often come accross as stubborn, but they are quite intelligent and trainable, just more difficult to find what motivates them.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I have observed some LE bloodhound handlers some good some who simply expect the dog to do it all and don't ever train anything over 3 hours and don't know how to read when there dog is on a critter and when they are on the trail or how to cast the dog to recover a lost trail.

I think you really get out of it what you put into it.

It seems to me an improperly trained bloodhound is more likely to take a critter trail than a herder. I have put in a ton of time hiding for BHs - never worked one. I must admit though I have seen a good one (friend of mine has quite a few arrests with one) really do well on some urban work.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

For strictly tracking a bloodhound all day long or even a redbone as well, have gotten to see several in the woods, and a couple of concrete jungles as well. Of course the concrete cause a little issue but once they figure it out, its no difference, tracking is tracking and odor is odor. Alot of departments in the S. carolina and GA have tracking teams and nothing else as far as K9 gos, mostly Sheriffs that are scared of law suits of a bite dog#-o


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