# New "Green Dog" Experience



## Michael Stims (Nov 4, 2011)

Hello I am new to this board, and found it trying to do some research on my experience. I just picked up my new partner, a GSD import who is 14 months old. I recently had to retire my past partner due to an injury, and he was a titled GSD dual purpose narc detection.

This new dog is very differant from my old partner. His drive does not seem anywhere near as intense. He will chase the ball and bring it back a couple times, and then seems not interested. We started imprinting him on narcotics with the typical firehose toy, and he will tug with you when u play with him after a find. However he will just drop it out of his mouth the instant you stop playing with him. I am used to my old dog who tried to tear it to apart and always carried it back to the car with him. 

I spoke with my trainer who also observed him, and he told me I was trying to bring out the negatives in the dog too much, and it was due to his young age why his drive is not as intense. I have never delt with a green dog before so maybe it is me. The only training he has had before I got him was bite work. 

I have tried several different toys,tugs, and he seems to have the same drive for all of them. Not sure what to think but I start class with him soon, so I am trying to give him the benefit of doubt since I have only been with him for two weeks.


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## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

The biggest fault with getting a new partner is comparing him to your last one. For some reason we always think they are never going to be as good as my last one.

Keep working on it. He will more than likely come along. Just think when you retire this one you will be saying the same thing about your next partner!!


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Some dogs are hammers right out of the box others need to build a relationship with you before they go all out. While others just dont need to be working. 

I would spend all my time trying to let the dog be comfortable with me and stop trying to compare him to your old dog. He is gone and there will never be one like him again. Your new dog is a blank slate that you can build and mold to what you like. 

If after a couple of weeks he does not work out find another one.


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## Michael Stims (Nov 4, 2011)

Thanks for the reply, that is what my trainer told me before we went down to pick him out. He said that even if he told me not to do it, that we will always compare to our last dog. Trying not to do it, maybe that's why I am focused so much on his drive. I find myself comparing him to our other dogs on the department as well, which are all 4 years and up. Just new territory for me I guess. This guy is quiet and calm in the car and in the kennel, which I never had before, that is a plus.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

I dont have much to offer outside of what has been said. But at his age he is still a work in progress. I would spend most of my time with him building a relationship. The quiet part is a bonus as long as its not a give away that he is without a lot of drive.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

I never gave my second dog the respect he deserved until he put his life on the line for me. What an ass I was! From that day forward I quit comparing him to my first. Now I tell other handlers the same thing as Will and Phil....give him a chance, he'll never be your first but you can make him better because most your mistakes were made with the first dog.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

what everyone else said: give him some time to adjust, build a relationship.

i think you'll find after a bit, that you'll be thinking "<old dog> did it this way, but <new dog> does it that way, and <new dog's> way works as well-just a different way". 

does that make sense? but you have to give him a little time.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I agree with the others about comparing a "second" dog. Nothing will ever measure up to your first. I will say though, your description of the way the dog acts in training, he would already have been replaced. I've learned to work smarter rather than harder. Can this dog be made, perhaps, but there are dogs available where you don't have to put up with a "perhaps"

DFrost


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

just out of curiosity david, would you give a green dog a day, a week, or right out of the crate to decide if it should be replaced? do you ever have to change handlers with an already certified dog (i'm thinking kinda MWD here)? and if so, how long of an adjustment period is "normal" (and if you can, define "normal" haha)?


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Michael.

At 14 months, I wouldn't say it is an age issue for drive. Getting a green dog compared to a titled one will take some getting used to though. 

Use the comparison to help instead of hurt, IE, I liked this feature in my last dog, let me work on it to get this one there.. Sounds like you did that with his demeanor in the car, liking the calm better in this dog. Enjoy what you like and fix what you don't. 

I like goal based training, and I would talk to your trainer about getting a new dog if he doesn't meet your goals in a timely manner that you and your trainer set. Be a little brutal with this if you have a choice, as you have to live with him for some years.

Most of all, good luck and enjoy your dog!!!


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

ann schnerre said:


> just out of curiosity david, would you give a green dog a day, a week, or right out of the crate to decide if it should be replaced? do you ever have to change handlers with an already certified dog (i'm thinking kinda MWD here)? and if so, how long of an adjustment period is "normal" (and if you can, define "normal" haha)?


When I test a dog, it's on neutral ground. Someplace the dog hasn't been. If it's going to have a problem, it will be during testing. I do give the handler at least one week minimum to begin the bonding process before training starts. Selected properly though, the person that has the ball/tug/toy etc is the dog's best friend regardless of bonding time. I have replaced handlers, it doesn't happen all that often, but generally it's because a handler left K9 for one reason or another and the dog was too young to retire. I like to give a new handler with a trained dog, a week with the dog before we start training. Changing handlers probably isn't as difficult as some people may think. 

DFrost


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Dave Colborn said:


> Michael.
> 
> At 14 months, I wouldn't say it is an age issue for drive. Getting a green dog compared to a titled one will take some getting used to though.
> 
> ...


Getting a green dog compared to a titled one will take some getting used to though. 

Thats for sure ... I guess I read past that part.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

David Frost said:


> When I test a dog, it's on neutral ground. Someplace the dog hasn't been. If it's going to have a problem, it will be during testing. I do give the handler at least one week minimum to begin the bonding process before training starts. Selected properly though, the person that has the ball/tug/toy etc is the dog's best friend regardless of bonding time. I have replaced handlers, it doesn't happen all that often, but generally it's because a handler left K9 for one reason or another and the dog was too young to retire. I like to give a new handler with a trained dog, a week with the dog before we start training. Changing handlers probably isn't as difficult as some people may think.
> 
> DFrost


so a handler with a trained dog, one week--seems reasonable to me. 

testing a potential dog on neutral territory, well, that's straight out of koehler's first book  

a green dog on neutral territory should still show the drives required, right? (again, i'm thinking of koehler's first book and his testing protocol).


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

ann schnerre said:


> so a handler with a trained dog, one week--seems reasonable to me.
> 
> testing a potential dog on neutral territory, well, that's straight out of koehler's first book
> 
> a green dog on neutral territory should still show the drives required, right? (again, i'm thinking of koehler's first book and his testing protocol).


Who?? ha ha

Testing a dog in a training area a dog is familiar with doesn't show you everything. Testing on neutral territory, to me, indicates good nerve and solid behaviors I'm testing, ie retrieve. Whether I'm testing a donated dog or a dog from a vendor, I will do it on neutral territory, without anyone the dog is familiar with as well. Remember though, I'm dealing with adults, not puppies. I really don't have the experience to test puppies with any confidence. 

DFrost


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

David Frost said:


> Who?? ha ha
> 
> Testing a dog in a training area a dog is familiar with doesn't show you everything. Testing on neutral territory, to me, indicates good nerve and solid behaviors I'm testing, ie retrieve. Whether I'm testing a donated dog or a dog from a vendor, I will do it on neutral territory, without anyone the dog is familiar with as well. Remember though, I'm dealing with adults, not puppies. I really don't have the experience to test puppies with any confidence.
> 
> DFrost


you've never heaard of "Koehler's Book of Guard dog Training"???? OMG!!!!

so the test in neutral area of any "green" dog pretty much tells you all you need to know. and i can subscribe to that per mr. koehler. i love his tests. 

and you can't evaluate a puppy using them, either. "puppies are a crapshoot" .


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Ok, ok, I may have heard of this guy, Koehler. Yes, a test in a neutral area pretty much tells me what I need to know. I do include however, different surface flooring and grated stairs and walkways. It's just something I like to do. I also walk them down a busy highway. 

DFrost


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## Jason Davis (Oct 12, 2009)

David Frost said:


> I agree with the others about comparing a "second" dog. Nothing will ever measure up to your first. I will say though, your description of the way the dog acts in training, he would already have been replaced. I've learned to work smarter rather than harder. Can this dog be made, perhaps, but there are dogs available where you don't have to put up with a "perhaps"
> 
> DFrost


I completely agree. I work with green dogs all the time who just stepped off the plane and the drive is unbelievable with no bond required. I would have replaced him already.


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## Michael Stims (Nov 4, 2011)

Well class starts next week..so time will tell. He seems to be getting a little more motivated when I stem him up a bit with the ball. His grip is great, and he refuses to let go on whatever I play tug with. He just seems to lose interest with the toy when he wins. Talked to my trainer and he said not to worry until he doesnt respond to training. So I guess if he is able to certify at class thats the end of the story. Even if its not to my standards, I got the "he is not a robot story", stop trying to concentrate on the negatives.


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## Erica Boling (Jun 17, 2008)

Michael Stims said:


> Well class starts next week..so time will tell. He seems to be getting a little more motivated when I stem him up a bit with the ball. His grip is great, and he refuses to let go on whatever I play tug with. He just seems to lose interest with the toy when he wins. Talked to my trainer and he said not to worry until he doesnt respond to training. So I guess if he is able to certify at class thats the end of the story. Even if its not to my standards, I got the "he is not a robot story", stop trying to concentrate on the negatives.


Some dogs don't fixate on the object as much as others and are more into the interaction/engagement with the object and handler rather than the object itself. When you are engaged with the dog, tugging, etc., how is he? How is his drive when the ball is thrown and still moving? How is his drive when he thinks you are going to throw the ball? My Malinois is much more into the fight and the interaction with the item (and with me.. the decoy, etc.) rather than carrying an item around. When he was young, he had tons of drive for the moving ball, but once it stopped moving, he lost interest. Just wondering if you are seeing so/so drive all around, in all interactions with him?


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

David Frost said:


> Ok, ok, I may have heard of this guy, Koehler. Yes, a test in a neutral area pretty much tells me what I need to know. I do include however, different surface flooring and grated stairs and walkways. It's just something I like to do. I also walk them down a busy highway.
> 
> DFrost


i think the "different surface" is a great idea-grated stairs spook more dogs, IME than slick floors. walking the dog down the "comedian" or the shoulder? seriously, i'd rather go the "comedian" route than the shoulder--i would feel safer, and safer for the dog....i think. hmmmmm....


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

David said;
"Changing handlers probably isn't as difficult as some people may think".

I think most people would be supprised how easily a dog will change loyalties. 
To a dog it's all about who feeds me and spends a little time with me.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

ann schnerre said:


> seriously, i'd rather go the "comedian" route than the shoulder--i would feel safer, and safer for the dog....i think. hmmmmm....


"Comedian", ha ha are you a trucker?????? Over the past few years I've had 3 dogs hit working the side of the road, all by drunks. Killed one, one recovered with no problem, the other would still do building/room searches but would not work on the highway. I worked with that dog for several months but just couldn't fix it. It's still living, but is now a house pet. The noise, rushing air, the smart ass with the horn or air brakes can have an effect on some dogs. It is certainly worth a few minutes testing.

DFrost


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Michael Stims said:


> Well class starts next week..so time will tell. He seems to be getting a little more motivated when I stem him up a bit with the ball. His grip is great, and he refuses to let go on whatever I play tug with. He just seems to lose interest with the toy when he wins. Talked to my trainer and he said not to worry until he doesnt respond to training. So I guess if he is able to certify at class thats the end of the story. Even if its not to my standards, I got the "he is not a robot story", stop trying to concentrate on the negatives.



Again. Good luck. Get ready to put the year or 18 months into your untitled dog to get him where someone else did for you on the last one. It will be a testament to your ability as a handler/trainer. keep your eye on the prize.


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## Michael Stims (Nov 4, 2011)

Erica Boling said:


> Some dogs don't fixate on the object as much as others and are more into the interaction/engagement with the object and handler rather than the object itself. When you are engaged with the dog, tugging, etc., how is he? How is his drive when the ball is thrown and still moving? How is his drive when he thinks you are going to throw the ball? My Malinois is much more into the fight and the interaction with the item (and with me.. the decoy, etc.) rather than carrying an item around. When he was young, he had tons of drive for the moving ball, but once it stopped moving, he lost interest. Just wondering if you are seeing so/so drive all around, in all interactions with him?


It's funny you mention that because that is what I have been noticing with him. Whatever I play tug with him with he does not let go of it, no matter what surface we are on. The harder I tug the harder he pulls, and if I mess with him tapping his side or make noise, he lets out a little growl and pulls harder. I like that part of the fight I see in him. When the ball is thrown and still moving he chases it every time and grabs it, just does not hold onto it for a long time after he gets it. When I spin the ball around and hold it teasing him with it he barks, and gets frustrated. So maybe that's just the way he is, high prey drive, but once he gets the item he could care less. Would make sense with his reward toy when we are doing the scratch wall, he hunts for it good, and barks at it when he sees it but can't get at it. Sometimes he will even try to dig at the wall to get it. Once he gets it, he plays with it for a bit, then spits it out and looks around as if he is bored....He will be put to the test soon...so we shall see! I'll keep ya'll updated, and thanks for the insight and help.

Dave, you sound just like the head of our K9 Team. He said to me yesterday just wait once you put the work in, you can step back and say, yeah I did that, he was green.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

You may have a problem with engaging passive subjects with this dog. Keep that in mind for future training. Nothing pisses me off more than a dog finding a passive bad guy and not engaging. We had one here...huge officer safety issue. Thankfully that dog is gone now.


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## Michael Stims (Nov 4, 2011)

Howard Knauf said:


> You may have a problem with engaging passive subjects with this dog. Keep that in mind for future training. Nothing pisses me off more than a dog finding a passive bad guy and not engaging. We had one here...huge officer safety issue. Thankfully that dog is gone now.


I will keep that in mind during the building search portion, thanks.


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## Erica Boling (Jun 17, 2008)

Keep us posted! It will be interesting to see how he develops.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

David Frost said:


> "Comedian", ha ha are you a trucker?????? Over the past few years I've had 3 dogs hit working the side of the road, all by drunks. Killed one, one recovered with no problem, the other would still do building/room searches but would not work on the highway. I worked with that dog for several months but just couldn't fix it. It's still living, but is now a house pet. The noise, rushing air, the smart ass with the horn or air brakes can have an effect on some dogs. It is certainly worth a few minutes testing.
> 
> DFrost


well, i've driven a little...but seriously--do you test them on the shoulder? i can see where the high-speed vehicles, and the smart-a$$es "tooting" their horns could freak a dog out. nothing pisses me off more than ppl coming up behind me when i'm riding then "tooting" at me. can we watch a young horse blow up? my god.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

ann schnerre said:


> well, i've driven a little...but seriously--do you test them on the shoulder? i can see where the high-speed vehicles, and the smart-a$$es "tooting" their horns could freak a dog out. nothing pisses me off more than ppl coming up behind me when i'm riding then "tooting" at me. can we watch a young horse blow up? my god.


Yes, I really do. If they can't handle it, there is no "desensitizing". That dog is just not accepted. 

DFrost


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

how did you guys evaluate him?


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## Michael Stims (Nov 4, 2011)

We did the normal routine, checked out his ball drive, through the ball into a high stalk field where he had to hunt for it. Checked how social he was, bitework, and then various surfaces. He was the most confident out all the dogs on any surface and noise thats what I liked about him. He still chases after the ball as many times as you throw it, he just doesnt hold it in his mouth long unless u tug with him. The same with his reward toy. He just seems to look for the next thing after he wins the toy.


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

It sounds like the drive for the object can be built based on your comments. I like the sound of him. I own a dog that is nuts for tennis balls and it becomes quite annoying though I see that this is desireable for narc / detection training. It should be enough that he has desire for it enough to indicate aggressively while srchg. for it. Like Ms. Boling stated before he may desire the "fight" and the interaction moreso than the object itself. Careful, he may surprise you in other areas of your training. Good luck and we all look forward to hearing about the progress of your team.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

David Frost said:


> Yes, I really do. If they can't handle it, there is no "desensitizing". That dog is just not accepted.
> 
> DFrost


that makes sense to me--you guys don't have time for desensitizing. i have to say i was pleasantly surprised when i picked Ikon up at 12 weeks, took him out for a break in a high traffic area of Omaha (dodge street for those of you who know OM), and he completely ignored all the traffic. 

and no, i didn't tell him to go play in it like i did my kids when they were little.


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

I agree with the get a different dog theory. If you are working on the drives of a pup I could see it. When I buy a dog that is one of the things I am paying for. I'm not paying money for feeding and cleaning crap for 14mos.


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