# frantic bite



## Beth Koenig (Jul 4, 2011)

Hi there! Ok here is my question! When my 10 month old Dutch bites a sleeve he gets super frantic and type writer bites all OVER the place.

Also, in diffrent trainins mode (scent detection or obedience) I reward him with a ball, which he is constantly chewing and re-adjusting in his mouth. Any ideas how to fix that?

I would love for him to have a strong, solid, CALM! grip.

Thanks!

Beth


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

Beth Koenig said:


> Hi there! Ok here is my question! When my 10 month old Dutch bites a sleeve he gets super frantic and type writer bites all OVER the place.
> 
> Also, in diffrent trainins mode (scent detection or obedience) I reward him with a ball, which he is constantly chewing and re-adjusting in his mouth. Any ideas how to fix that?
> 
> ...


Hard to say without a video, but a couple things come to my mind, others more knowledgeable could chime in. Here's a couple possibilities

- He could be nervous on the bite and just not comfortable. His drive is telling him to fill his mouth but his mind is freaking out. Maybe too much too soon? Judging by the same symptoms during play this may not be the issue but it is a possibility. or maybe worsening the problem. 

- His mind may not know how to clearly handle all that drive he has. Hence the chewing. I have a dog like this. 

My suggestions are this. VERY VERY tight line work during bitework. You need to get that opposition reflex working for you. If he starts chewing the line isn't tight enough. If the sleeve slips out, I would put him up and not give him another bite. You want to show him that if he looses it he doesn't get to play and the only way to not loose it is to clamp down. If you have to stake him out or have someone else handle the line for you. Then you can be up next to him during bitework and work on being calm yourself. I also would have your decoy not get him too high in drive. You want to teach him when he's thinking clearly otherwise your are spinning your wheels. 

I would also switch to a tug for your detection and OB. That way you can always be putting some tension (opposition reflex) on his reward and tug with him. I wouldn't let him carry around a reward on his own. He'll never start chewing that way. The side benefit would be the reward is the game of tug with you not the object.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

How was he taught the out?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

video tape it...show it, everyone can then talk about what they are watching and how they might proceed.

and is this with a helper or you or who?


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## Julie Blanding (Mar 12, 2008)

Could also be a medical issue with his neck/teeth/jaw. Have you had him checked out?

Some dogs just bite like that too, hard to say!


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Brett Bowen said:


> Hard to say without a video, but a couple things come to my mind, others more knowledgeable could chime in. Here's a couple possibilities
> 
> - He could be nervous on the bite and just not comfortable. His drive is telling him to fill his mouth but his mind is freaking out. Maybe too much too soon? Judging by the same symptoms during play this may not be the issue but it is a possibility. or maybe worsening the problem.
> 
> ...


I agree with all of this (maybe a ball on string for detection) but it may be too late if you have ingrained in the dog to bite like this with your training style. 

Try and find out if it's nature (physical problem or genetic propensity to bite like that) or nurture (trained by you or events he's encountered). Rule out health first.

Good helper/decoy should be able to sort it out pretty quickly, but I would guess you could improve it to some degree. If not, work on keeping him in the same spot and pushing in to fill his mouth, vs. moving around. If he is going to move anyway, may as well do something positive with it.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I'm interested in seeing a video of what you described. I've heard this mentioned before but don't know that I have ever seen what you are talking about.


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## Beth Koenig (Jul 4, 2011)

Hi. Thank you for the input. I only just started him in bite work, so he hasn't had enough sessions to be engrained yet, at least I don't think so. I usually have enough back pressure on him to avoid the chewing, so much where his front paws come off the ground (harness) only releasing the leash for a split second to let him drive in farther. But his driving in farther results in the munchy, re-gripping. 

I think it his nature, because I had the same issue with another dog of similar lines, but she was so long ago I can't remember how or if I fixed it.

He is just starting to come into himself, his lines are very slow maturing, so it could be he has so much drive he doesn't know yet what to do with it.

I will see if I can get a video of it. I usually work him with my boyfriend or back tieing him. I have not taught him the out yet, so am ruling out him anticipating the out and chewing because he is nervous of the out. But when I let him win the sleeve, he immediately drops to the ground, places his paws on it,and starts chewing it that way too,unless I run him around after he wins the sleeve then hold his head up, like they do with schh puppies.

I can ty to get a video soon. Thanks for the feedback!


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## Beth Koenig (Jul 4, 2011)

Brett Bowen said:


> Hard to say without a video, but a couple things come to my mind, others more knowledgeable could chime in. Here's a couple possibilities
> 
> - He could be nervous on the bite and just not comfortable. His drive is telling him to fill his mouth but his mind is freaking out. Maybe too much too soon? Judging by the same symptoms during play this may not be the issue but it is a possibility. or maybe worsening the problem.
> 
> ...



GREAT post, THANK YOU!


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Beth Koenig said:


> Hi. Thank you for the input. I only just started him in bite work, so he hasn't had enough sessions to be engrained yet, at least I don't think so. I usually have enough back pressure on him to avoid the chewing, so much where his front paws come off the ground (harness) only releasing the leash for a split second to let him drive in farther. But his driving in farther results in the munchy, re-gripping.


 

Sounds like you are teaching him to do this. If you release the back pressure and he pushes in, this is desireable for me and what I do.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

My Dutchie is also a frantic biter. My advise: stay with a nice fat tug. Forget about balls (they encourage chewing IMO). I wouldn't work him myself with a sleeve (too much pressure from the owner). If someone else works him on a sleeve, nothing harder then an intermediate at this point. Back tie or a good handler that can maintain proper pressure. Michael Ellis DVD on How to play tug with your Dog is a good resource. Good Luck


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

Beth Koenig said:


> Hi. Thank you for the input. I only just started him in bite work, so he hasn't had enough sessions to be engrained yet, at least I don't think so. I usually have enough back pressure on him to avoid the chewing, so much where his front paws come off the ground (harness) only releasing the leash for a split second to let him drive in farther. But his driving in farther results in the munchy, re-gripping.
> 
> I think it his nature, because I had the same issue with another dog of similar lines, but she was so long ago I can't remember how or if I fixed it.
> 
> ...


Your dog sounds a lot like mine. For the re-gripping, I think properly timed line-work would help a lot. You, the decoy, and the dog, all have to be on the same page and working together. After the counter you want that line tight again within half a second. You already mentioned it, but maturity does get overlooked in a lot of areas IMO.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Does EXCESS STRESS mean anything? What were the building blocks used from day one, too much pressure? VIDEO is nice but biting all over the sleeve isn't something we want from any dog/puppy.


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## Beth Koenig (Jul 4, 2011)

Dave Colborn said:


> Sounds like you are teaching him to do this. If you release the back pressure and he pushes in, this is desireable for me and what I do.


I release the line only for a split second to let him drive in, then re apply the pressure again, but he still gets munchy. I teach my dogs to drive into the bite, but he seems to be more mouthy than my other dogs.


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## Beth Koenig (Jul 4, 2011)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Does EXCESS STRESS mean anything? What were the building blocks used from day one, too much pressure? VIDEO is nice but biting all over the sleeve isn't something we want from any dog/puppy.


Could be stress, but I keep it fun (prey drive, haven't taught him the out yet, and no obedience around the bite work), so not too sure where the stress comes in UNLESS it is from the back pressure and he feels like he is losing it, which could stress hm out. I've already got some ideas , maybe let hm bite and win instantly and run around with it, and not apply back pressure until he is a bit older. Again, he is still very immature.


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## Beth Koenig (Jul 4, 2011)

Thomas Barriano said:


> My Dutchie is also a frantic biter. My advise: stay with a nice fat tug. Forget about balls (they encourage chewing IMO). I wouldn't work him myself with a sleeve (too much pressure from the owner). If someone else works him on a sleeve, nothing harder then an intermediate at this point. Back tie or a good handler that can maintain proper pressure. Michael Ellis DVD on How to play tug with your Dog is a good resource. Good Luck


Sounds great, if u don't mind me asking, what lines is your Dutch from?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Beth Koenig said:


> Sounds great, if u don't mind me asking, what lines is your Dutch from?


Ero van Neerland x Kimmy van der Heide


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## Beth Koenig (Jul 4, 2011)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Ero van Neerland x Kimmy van der Heide


Oh ok!!


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

Beth Koenig said:


> Hi. Thank you for the input. I only just started him in bite work, so he hasn't had enough sessions to be engrained yet, at least I don't think so. I usually have enough back pressure on him to avoid the chewing, so much where his front paws come off the ground (harness) only releasing the leash for a split second to let him drive in farther. But his driving in farther results in the munchy, re-gripping.
> 
> I think it his nature, because I had the same issue with another dog of similar lines, but she was so long ago I can't remember how or if I fixed it.
> 
> ...


 Back TF up. Don't work on the sleeve until you have good grips and good outs with a large tug. If you want to have better grips stop what seems to be the norm with some trainers and teach the dog to pull, not push. It is pretty difficult for a dog who is really pulling to have a crappy grip, especially typewriter grips. Also not only do you need to teach the dog to out but to hold the object calmly. A good hold promotes a good out. Also put the ball away and reward with a tug if grips are a problem. Training with a helper/decoy that really knows what they are doing would be a lot better than getting advice over the internet.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Steve Burger said:


> Back TF up. Don't work on the sleeve until you have good grips and good outs with a large tug. If you want to have better grips stop what seems to be the norm with some trainers and teach the dog to pull, not push. It is pretty difficult for a dog who is really pulling to have a crappy grip, especially typewriter grips. Also not only do you need to teach the dog to out but to hold the object calmly. A good hold promotes a good out. Also put the ball away and reward with a tug if grips are a problem. Training with a helper/decoy that really knows what they are doing would be a lot better than getting advice over the internet.


The difference in norm may be your training venue.

You are training for a different sport and have to realize that when giving advice. Not to say you couldn't compete in a suit sport, but there is a different methodology (or should be). The target is moving and a bad/odd sized target is a fact of life. PSA is a grip sport, and if a dog gets a crap grip on entry, then he can readjust if he's pushing.

Another reason I don't train a dog to pull is because if he pops off for whatever reason, he is half way out of the fight. Pushing in, getting a better position, displays a better dog to me. One with a willingness to stay in the fight, and BE there mentally, vs hanging onto an oversized tug on someones arm. She is training for some type of Ringsport I think, where a crappy grip is a fact of life trialing against a good decoy. Not to say you can't use some of your advice and promote a good grip on a sleeve or tug and fix the foundation, but that a dog that backs up with one canine in the matierial on a bite suit puts the dog in position to be out of the fight, and moving backwards...When they get a crap grip on entry, their next move needs to be to fill their mouth.

I have done some suit stuff and worked for a Sch guy who taught me most of my suit stuff. I do most foundation similar to him. Solid stable grip doesn't mean the dog cant keep moving forward. I hate seeing dogs getting their feet whacked on a Sch decoy to keep him pulling just for points...


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## Beth Koenig (Jul 4, 2011)

Steve Burger said:


> Back TF up. Don't work on the sleeve until you have good grips and good outs with a large tug. If you want to have better grips stop what seems to be the norm with some trainers and teach the dog to pull, not push. It is pretty difficult for a dog who is really pulling to have a crappy grip, especially typewriter grips. Also not only do you need to teach the dog to out but to hold the object calmly. A good hold promotes a good out. Also put the ball away and reward with a tug if grips are a problem. Training with a helper/decoy that really knows what they are doing would be a lot better than getting advice over the internet.


Maybe I should clarify - the sleeve I am using is a soft Belgian arm, more or less an oversized or large tug. I do not want my dogs to pull because yes, I do train for ringsport, where the decoys TRY to make the dogs let go by the way they move, I need my dogs to push in so when the decoy stops for a second, he can drive even deeper for a better grip if need be. I also train my dogs for police and I don't want my dog backing out of the fight before it starts simply by pulling, when suspects try even harder than ring decoys to make the dogs let go.

I am working on his calm grip by going to a schh style method of training, and when he calms down his grip is extremely full. I did it last night and a few nights ago, and it is working.

I understand what you are saying about a pulling dog and thank you for your input.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

I think your concerned about to many things at once. If the dog is typing, getting the dog to push or pull is a moot point. Forget about that, come back to it once the grip structure is solid. 

First, I think everyone is right, the dog is conflicted. He's stressed. I would use leather on about 8 foot of leash, and have him chase and catch it. Here you can use the leash like a fishing line and "set" the grip by try to jerk it out of his mouth, if he wants to keep it. He has no choice but to bite it hard. I would not worry about full mouth, pushing, pulling none of that right now. You have to cure the typing. The leash on the leather.+ can tell you if the stress is from being in close proximity to the "helper" or you, who's ever playing the game. Then as time goes by, and "if" the dog gets more comfortable you move up the line, then working on getting a full grip. Immediatly moving back down the line or letting him win it. 

The only real fixable solution overall I see to a dog like this is the hope of teaching them how to win. A dog has to have a way out. Some behavior that produces success, whether it be shaking, pushing, re-griping....shoot making eye contact can be a win for very weak dog at first. But it's tough when a boogie man has been put in his head. 

You're re-griping exercise is not producing anything for the dog, he's re-griping and then that's it, he is still in the same situation he was before. I generally with young dogs allow them to win at first, by simply getting the toy, then by holding on a little, (these progressions move very fast, as I do not want the dog to become conditioned to these) then regriping, then some sort of fight ... Somewhere I want to see the dog, get the toy and come back to me for more fighting. When they are doing this, Now, I throw light threat at them at a distance when they start to come back. I hope to pair this with the fight, So the dog sees the threat as an invitation to fight with me. Once this solid, I strengthen the threat, move it closer to me. Usually what I see by this point, if I threaten the dog on the bite they fight harder. Of course, as with any training...it's never that straight of a road. But it's all about paying attention to what the dog gives you. This is something Greg Doud made me very aware of. Then once this all said and done, No more slipping or letting the dog have anything, it's bite-out-bite...the rewarding experience should be fighting and the reward of biting. I am not a fan of a dog that works to get away from the helper.

But I think asking a green dog just to be expected bit well because your using a softer toy maybe a bit of high expectation. In my opinion you have two training theories to use. De-sensitization (the line producing distance and getting smaller over time) and positive association (some rewarding experience that builds confidence). 

Now, I believe that there maybe a chance in a dog like this that there could be possibly no solution. You can change grip structure in a dog with good nerve, but if the dog is just not a strong a dog this sometimes is incurable.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

James Downey said:


> I think your concerned about to many things at once. If the dog is typing, getting the dog to push or pull is a moot point. Forget about that, come back to it once the grip structure is solid.
> 
> First, I think everyone is right, the dog is conflicted. He's stressed. I would use leather on about 8 foot of leash, and have him chase and catch it. Here you can use the leash like a fishing line and "set" the grip by try to jerk it out of his mouth, if he wants to keep it. He has no choice but to bite it hard. I would not worry about full mouth, pushing, pulling none of that right now. You have to cure the typing. The leash on the leather.+ can tell you if the stress is from being in close proximity to the "helper" or you, who's ever playing the game. Then as time goes by, and "if" the dog gets more comfortable you move up the line, then working on getting a full grip. Immediatly moving back down the line or letting him win it.
> 
> ...


You are contradicting yourself some, the way I read it. On one hand, don't worry about pushing or pulling, but on the other hand, you want to reward the dog when he wins. The main reason countering is so nice to see in a dog, is it shows in most cases that he is comfortable enough to let go and re grip. Think of a dog killing a rabbit or an animal. They re grip when they are dominating, not in the middle of the fight when they are just trying to hang on. Same things with stuff on national geographic. This is why I don't like a dog that bites and pulls for points (to keep the grip stationary), vs a dog that is comfortable where he is and willing to push further into the bite when he thinks he's winning. Pulling or pushing (along with the rest of the picture) tells me a lot about a young dog and how comfortable he is on the bite. 

Maybe I am misreading what you said, though.


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

I have a dog that wont regrip. Even if he only has 2 teeth in. He pulls too. I have tried to make him regrip. I have tried to make him loose the grip. No go. Now I just dont worry about it. At least he doesnt change grip. He is like a vice. As long as he doesnt move on the bite I dont care anymore.
As for the chewy grip. I would work on a tug or a bite wedge. Keep moving back so there is tension on the bite. I can keep a chewy dog from not chewing if he has to hang on or loose it. I would even choke him off the bite while the decoy is moving some. The trick is dont let him chew. IF he is chewing handler and decoy are not working well together. Think of swining your dog around in the air on a tug. He cant chew can he. decoy him the same way


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

Hey Daniel. I saw the video of the dog you posted. I like him. Try only giving full grips when you're in the suit. Don't give him the option of only having two front teeth in. I like that he holds on to what he has, but if you are only feeding him the edge of the suit and trying to get him to grip in, I don't think that will work. Dog doesn't have proper foundation for that. Maybe you could start him from the beginning with tug play. Always feeding a full grip every session (for the next 3-4 months?) consistently. Then suit work, always feeding him a fulll grip (have handler allow the dog to drag him/her in as you're backing up) and feed a full grip there as well. After all that for several months see if he will push into the tug or suit and regrip. At this point I wouldn't give him the option of two front teeth holding on. If you're trying to retrain his gripping that is. Hope you continue to post photo or video of his progress.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

I´m missing the input of the decoy. What does your decoy do at the moment the tension comes of your leash.? Is he using a whip? Is he bringing too much drive on the dog?
Dick,


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

I'm probably gonna get some shit for this especially considering I had a problem with bites with my current dobes which Steve helped me greatly with as it goes but it was a different problem.

Anyway I had a 'typewriter dobe' she was murder for it she would snap her jaws too when put on alert so fast you could hardly see it just hear the clacks.
Well I solved this problem with a very unconventional method. I got her to play tug of war with an old intermediate sleeve with my English bull terrier. Her grip is phenomenal naturally so I just left them too it. She soon learned not to typewriter because she would loose the sleeve and the Bully wouldn't let her get it back if she could help it and the cycle would begin again. 
This ended up being all they would do together given the choice.

I'm not suggesting you do this by any stretch, just saying what I did.
Obviously don't do this with dogs that are going to fight over the item, overly possessive dogs or if you think it's a dumb idea which it probably was.
Those dogs got on together very very well, I wouldn't do it with my current dobes.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Also like someone else said above, internet advice is all very well but is a double edged sword. In the instance of Steve helping me with my dobes it paid off. Equally I have had shite advice form others. My expectations have been raised as to what my dogs should be capable of. Sometimes I wish I had never come on forums, I was plodding along perfectly happy with my dogs, have trained many of my own PPD's and never had any negative problems that I havn't solved through thinking them through.
But equally some advice I have received has been stuff I would never have access to and has massively positive effects. Just learn to filter out the crap I say.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Matt Vandart said:


> I'm probably gonna get some shit for this especially considering I had a problem with bites with my current dobes which Steve helped me greatly with as it goes but it was a different problem.
> 
> Anyway I had a 'typewriter dobe' she was murder for it she would snap her jaws too when put on alert so fast you could hardly see it just hear the clacks.
> Well I solved this problem with a very unconventional method. I got her to play tug of war with an old intermediate sleeve with my English bull terrier. Her grip is phenomenal naturally so I just left them too it. She soon learned not to typewriter because she would loose the sleeve and the Bully wouldn't let her get it back if she could help it and the cycle would begin again.
> ...


Creative solution. Did it carry over well into bitework?


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

It solved the typewriter problem in training if that's what you mean. She had all the drive to actually bite anyway, just did this rapid biting thing, it was pretty insane really how a dog could bite so many times per second. 

In the real world however she was called on to bite civilly and she reverted back to the typewriter biting, it was very effective though as it did away with the 'bad guy' but didn't do enough damage for him to call the police on me and my dog. 

Another advantage of her rapid snapping is mostly that was all it took for junkie scumbags to get the idea they really should just **** off and find someone else to piss off.

It was not the same as chewing/mini re-bites but rather a wacky series of full bites with force, but then in real life as you probably well know a perfect target is sometimes a bonus rather than a default. She was a fairly good dog at realising the level of aggression required, both with humans and other dogs.

The real life scenario was in our old hallway which was very narrow and gaining a good shoulder/armpit target was impossible for her so she went for a the inside forearm. She put about 5 bites on his weapon arm before he could get it out the way. Did the job, guy left in a hurry, never came back, which for me is the key to a PPD.

Edit: and as an added bonus I got a new eastwing hammer the twat left behind!


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## Britney Pelletier (Mar 5, 2009)

Dave Colborn said:


> The difference in norm may be your training venue.
> 
> You are training for a different sport and have to realize that when giving advice. Not to say you couldn't compete in a suit sport, but there is a different methodology (or should be). The target is moving and a bad/odd sized target is a fact of life. PSA is a grip sport, and if a dog gets a crap grip on entry, then he can readjust if he's pushing.
> 
> ...


couldn't have said it better myself, sir! MY schutzhund dogs will always push into the grip


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

Britney Pelletier said:


> couldn't have said it better myself, sir! MY schutzhund dogs will always push into the grip


Amen to that!


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## Mark Horne (Oct 12, 2006)

I had this problem, my GSD would bite with a gnawing action, almost like a shark trying to bite a seal in half. His mother's side is KNPV.
We firstly checked his genetic grip by getting him to run around backwards and forwards changing direction on a line with a sleeve in his mouth; we established when carrying (except the ball) he had a gentically strong calm grip. 
We also got the Helper after the initial counter to his bite to then relax his fingers/fist inside the sleeve. Some dogs can be very sensive to the resistance inside the sleeve and keep biting if they sense their prey is still alive. this improved matters then we spent 3 months working on the foundations of grip. Not perfect but a great improvement.

Regards 

Mark


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Back pressure as soon as he bit and a lot of bungee work on a harness helped my Dutch Shepherd be less hectic on the bite.


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

We have had a couple of dogs come out to the club like this, a Dutch Shepherd and a GSD. We had the handlers take the dog off the sleeve and go back to basics on the tug. The dog re learned all the basics..how to pull, hold and carry calm etc. This ended the chewing. A dog can not be chewy if he is pulling. Its impossible for the dog to be biting soft if he is pulling hard. Steve B had good advice. Go back, fix the issues and then move back onto the man.


Pulling is not done for points, even though that can be a by product of the work. It is done to teach the dog it must fight hard by pulling and at the same time must bite hard. This pulling transfers onto the escape bites where the dog is supposed to hinder/ attempt to stop the helper. If you teach the dog to out off a pull that will also help the outs later on if you happen to get a helper in a trial who is unable to hold the sleeve still. The dog should be able to out cleanly off a still or moving sleeve.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

this is the kind of stuff we did to calm down Luna's grip. She was kinda hectic at first. this worked wonders in my opinion, a few sessions like this. long and calmer...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dEcIif5q8E&list=UU5Teu-yr3ggIqso1oVYTE2A&index=45

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpwAdTR7o6w&list=UU5Teu-yr3ggIqso1oVYTE2A&index=44


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Tracey Hughes said:


> Pulling is not done for points, even though that can be a by product of the work. It is done to teach the dog it must fight hard by pulling and at the same time must bite hard. This pulling transfers onto the escape bites where the dog is supposed to hinder/ attempt to stop the helper. If you teach the dog to out off a pull that will also help the outs later on if you happen to get a helper in a trial who is unable to hold the sleeve still. The dog should be able to out cleanly off a still or moving sleeve.


Points are why you worry about the grip at all, right?

Have you ever tried to do an escape bite when the dog is pushing vs. pulling?? Pulling is like draging a suitcase. with a dog pushing, it's hard to time your steps. Again. grip I think is the issue here. Gotta have a full one, or you lose points. Full and not moving, right?


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

I find the grips in a confident dog are normally full, the pulling will limit any chewiness and in IPO there aren’t all that many bites. So while the quality of the bites are always important, if you want to be competitive, that isn’t as big a deal as the control/obedience portion of protection. Many people worry too much on the actual biting part of the sport and forget about all the “other” things in a protection routine. Your dog is being judged on the obedience from the second you hit the protection field and at the higher levels your OB is expected to be the same as it is in the OB phase of the sport(dog is in correct position, straight etc..). From the way you heel up the field prior to beginning the blinds, to how the dog performs the searches, and all the control needed in between the biting, that is all being judged, not to mention the barking in the guarding and outing. That adds up to a lot of points if you are lacking a high level of OB under that sort of high level distraction.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> You are contradicting yourself some, the way I read it. On one hand, don't worry about pushing or pulling, but on the other hand, you want to reward the dog when he wins. The main reason countering is so nice to see in a dog, is it shows in most cases that he is comfortable enough to let go and re grip. Think of a dog killing a rabbit or an animal. They re grip when they are dominating, not in the middle of the fight when they are just trying to hang on. Same things with stuff on national geographic. This is why I don't like a dog that bites and pulls for points (to keep the grip stationary), vs a dog that is comfortable where he is and willing to push further into the bite when he thinks he's winning. Pulling or pushing (along with the rest of the picture) tells me a lot about a young dog and how comfortable he is on the bite.
> 
> Maybe I am misreading what you said, though.


Dave, I get what your saying. And I agree that a re-grip can be viewed by a dog as a win, and a sign of confidence. But I my suggestion of forgetting the re-grip was based on the information given. The dog is re-griping and then typing. So, Yes, We could try and let the dog win right after the re-grip and see if this improves the dogs confidence. (I think that's what you may have been alluding too) But through the OP's post, one thing I read into is that the dog may not even know a win is possible. And the OP posting that the dog was getting hectic after the re-grip. I would not let the dog win at the point where the dog crosses his threshold of stress... Now it's not a win, it's an escape from the stress. Does that make sense. you're kind of in a pickle at that point. The dog is beyond his stress thresh hold.... So if you do not let him win, you're only going to cause more stress, and if you do let him win there, you could be rewarding his state of mind....sort of like when people coddle a fearful dog. So, I was suggesting maybe going all the way back to a point where there is no stress, teaching the dog a win is possible by doing some easier behavior, like simply catching the leather, Then progressing to teaching a win is holding the leather, at a distance. Also what this would do for me: is give me a clearer picture on what maybe the problem. Then would could progress to the point of making a re-grip a win. But for me, I want to reward a confident state of mind, as well as desired behavior. Does that make sense. I do not want to reward the dog right when the boogie man shows up. I do not ever want to teach to the dog that when the boogie man shows up, they should get the win. If this happens to many times, And the boogie man shows up in a trial or when it counts in real work...The dog's stress is going to go through roof, and he's going to reward himself by letting go or typing again.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

And maybe I am just in-ept at teaching a dog to push vs. pull? I have tried to make my dog's push constantly into the grip...and have been unsuccessful. It seems to me there may also be a genetic part to push vs. pull. In fact, my dog pulls, His mother pulls, and his grandfather pulls....and if you look at the dogs work. You can almost tell they are related by the way they pull. It looks like the exact same dog biting.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

James Downey said:


> And maybe I am just in-ept at teaching a dog to push vs. pull? I have tried to make my dog's push constantly into the grip...and have been unsuccessful. It seems to me there may also be a genetic part to push vs. pull. In fact, my dog pulls, His mother pulls, and his grandfather pulls....and if you look at the dogs work. You can almost tell they are related by the way they pull. It looks like the exact same dog biting.


I re-read your post that I commented on and I think I get what you are saying better combining it with your last post. I think I am inept at reading some posts on the first look. 


I like your solution to put the helper further away from the dog to try and find out what's causing the problem. I couldn't find in her posts where the dog was getting frantic after the counter when I looked again. I did find where it sounds like she has a solution that's working at this point. 

A suggestion if you really care about getting your dog to push..IE if it is something you want to change. Get him on the sleeve. Carry him on your hip or side and move away from him. Put all four feet on the ground and continue moving backwards. When he takes the first walking step with you, let him have the sleeve, and progress from there. If he is really bad and locks up his legs, reward when you feel him less stiff and almost moving with you. you may be right on it being genetic if they all do it.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> I re-read your post that I commented on and I think I get what you are saying better combining it with your last post. I think I am inept at reading some posts on the first look.
> 
> 
> I like your solution to put the helper further away from the dog to try and find out what's causing the problem. I couldn't find in her posts where the dog was getting frantic after the counter when I looked again. I did find where it sounds like she has a solution that's working at this point.
> ...


Ill give it a try... I certainly would like my dog to push. Now, I am not positive about this, But I think dogs that pull genetically maybe a little possessive, they are trying get the sleeve (this one thing I think I m ay cause with slipping the sleeve) And dogs that fighting or "biting" the helper push. It seems to dogs pulling, it's pretty obvious to me they arde trying to get the sleeve, and dogs that push that maybe they find more enjoyment in digging there teeth into something. I also see this moment on my current dog during the out, when he is pulling, he pushes for a moment right before the out. And I see when he does push, Outs are easier and cleaner for him.


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## Aaron Rice (Jun 12, 2010)

It seems like we are talking about multiple issues. The original post was over a chewy grip which i solve by a tight back tie. Give the dog a grip on a tug with a leash or rope attached then randomly pop the rope. It forces the dog to clamp down. This will also build possession especially for dogs who rely mostly on fight drive. Now they also think that a fight or game with the tug could arise at anytime. 

Also when giving a grip the object should be moving away from the dog. Now the dog knows when he launches or goes in for the grip the grip will be in a different location. Now the dog thinks he has to drive through it not just bite and stop. 

I would sa as a decoy/ helper it is much harder to work a pushing style grip. Also like like dave says the dog that is a puller then pops off is now out of the game. Is a dog pulling and backing up dominant or is a dog that os pushing into you controlling you and making you back up?


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

My dog pulls. He doesnt pop out of the fight when we out him. He gaurds in the back so he hurrys in there and if you even wiggle your calf muscle will wish you hadnt. I dont think pulling means a dog isnt confiedent. It is why the dog is pulling or pushing that counts. I think a dog regriping has more of a chance of changing grip. I have decoyed dogs and waited for them to regrip, pulled the suit out of their mouth and then your dog will be slow to bite.
I have another dog that regrips well. But it was a real big job to keep her biting in the same place. Over the course of a bite she might have changed place by 3 or 4 inches. Depends if she bites up down or straight.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

My older dog would push or pull (counter) the helpers movement in order to get them off balance. 
I've had a couple of helpers tell me they don't like it because it can make a helper look bad. ](*,)


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Has pulling or pushing got to do with whether the dog is more in one drive than the other as in:
pulling=prey
push=fight/defence ?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Matt Vandart said:


> Has pulling or pushing got to do with whether the dog is more in one drive than the other as in:
> pulling=prey
> push=fight/defence ?


I dont think so..

fight is more prey than defense.. In my opinion....

but I do see what you mean..if it is focused on the object specifically, you will see pulling..

here is me playing "tug" with my dog...prey? fight? lazy fukking dog?mystery???..but the dog never pulls...unless I pull...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SW2AIXq89IQ

I have interacted online with about 30+ people that said they can do this with their dog, after watching the video... that said they would share video with me of their dog doing it.....so far none have...I can only assume that their dogs pulled the tugs....until I see otherwise...


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

Do what you want for Ring, in Schutzhund if you don't teach the dog to pull on the grips you are preventing your dog from getting points all over the place. Probably on every grip as well as hindering the helper. The dog is supposed to STOP the helper...not grip, hold on for dear life, and run along side of the helper on escapes and re-attacks, which is what you get with dogs that push. Or you can enter trials with crappy judges that don't really care what the dog is doing, and probably cannot tell the difference anyway. 

It is simple mechanics.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Joby ill see if I can set this up on video but I recall when I tried it she did what Luna did. I've got company right now but i might be able to film it after they leave.


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> I dont think so..
> 
> fight is more prey than defense.. In my opinion....
> 
> ...


 
Interesting game Joby. Going to give it a shot. My guy is a bit possessive, so we'll see what happens. Looks like fun and is a low impact form of strengethening the dog while doing something it likes. Those d*mn Arco x Truujse dogs are weird like that.


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

Joby,

What are you trying to teach the dog in the video?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Tracey Hughes said:


> Joby,
> 
> What are you trying to teach the dog in the video?


Trying to teach? or inadvertently teaching?

more of an exploratory game than a "teaching" excercise in intent...

I started doing this type of thing after i noticed that the dog would often just bring me the tug and jam it into me like most dogs will, and then would just keep trying to push it into me...and would pull only if I tugged back first..dog was pretty happy just pushing me around, and showing opposition. This worked to calm the dog down with it, and be able to get a good little workout in a low impact sort of way, since I am not all that stable on my feet, Just playing with the dog, like playing tug sort of..not really any sort of training goal in mind. 

I dont have aspirations to compete in anything really, so lots of things I do with the dog is just exploring her traits in weird ways, and playing weird games with the dog, without fears of creating bad habits for a competition training program. 

just a game the dog likes..like tossing a frisbee or anything else.

what it does do I think is let her work against whatever I try to do with the tugs, in a setup that is very controlled and low impact for me and the dog, strengthen the dog physically in some areas, she is really fighting against me trying to push her or pull her...and allow her to do what she likes, it seems to build up possession as well..

not something I really taught the dog, just something she did on her own when I was working on barking with her up on a picnic table and rewarding her with a little "tugging" or in her case, interaction...as soon as I rewarded her, she would try to push right into me until I went backwards, and come right off the table and then would just keep driving, this is more controlled, and is now a game she really likes...
does the same thing off the table too often, but also likes to tug more now, and shake.. I dont really want or need the dog to pull on stuff, so I dont really work for that at all...dog can get out of hand quickly, when using toys.. this keeps it more focused for us..

one benefit of doing this and also teaching her to stand up and "spread em" ( coupled with massage reward), is that now when I send her up the stairs onto the porch, she jumps up on the banister and pulls against the leash, so I can use the leash like a climbing rope, she makes a great anchor, and I am a pretty heavy dude, helps when me knees are overdone for the day, or the hip is really flared up..


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

Dave Colborn said:


> The difference in norm may be your training venue.
> 
> You are training for a different sport and have to realize that when giving advice. Not to say you couldn't compete in a suit sport, but there is a different methodology (or should be). The target is moving and a bad/odd sized target is a fact of life. PSA is a grip sport, and if a dog gets a crap grip on entry, then he can readjust if he's pushing.
> 
> ...


I disagree strongly. If you train the dog to pull properly he is not likely "to come off" I don't care what "venue" you are training in. If he is trained properly he is also going to have a hardass grip upon entry. Often something is only a fact of life if you accept it as such.

The dog is highly unlikely to maintain a good solid grip if he is moving pushing in/ moving forward while being put under real pressure. 

The only time we would do that is with puppies or dogs that have some gripping problems then we may do the equivalent of pushing the tug at them or taking it to the ground in the process of teaching them to grip fully. But this is just a process in the way of teaching the dog to bite hard and always pull. The statement you made about being in fight and not hanging on to the oversized tug on the arm is absolutely true and a major point of what I am making. In Schutzhund it is faulty if the dog is just hanging on to the arm. The dog is supposed to be "stopping" the helper and is supposed to be in fight, not hanging on for dear life. A dog that is pushing can only be hanging of for dear life. 

If a helper is using the whip because the dog is not pulling, it is part of the training process. It is not about points it is about performance. You give a dog an inch they will take a mile. It is like any other aspect of training. You let something slide then it comes back to bite you. 

We were actually having this conversation earlier this evening after training, and it included one of our helpers who was formerly a national level PSA helper and a FR level 1 helper.


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

James Downey said:


> And maybe I am just in-ept at teaching a dog to push vs. pull? I have tried to make my dog's push constantly into the grip...and have been unsuccessful. It seems to me there may also be a genetic part to push vs. pull. In fact, my dog pulls, His mother pulls, and his grandfather pulls....and if you look at the dogs work. You can almost tell they are related by the way they pull. It looks like the exact same dog biting.


Why in the world would you want the dog to push, especially in IPO? A dog that is pushing cannot maintain a good hard grip, and stop the helper if pressure is put on him.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Interesting points of view,i also believe its genetic to pull on some dogs.If you watch hunting dogs they push in get a big mouth full and shake whilst puling back its what does damage and effectively takes out there prey.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I look at the push pull thing as a grip thing first, the countering and fighting behaviors may be different...


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

I was watching training today with part of my mind on this thread. I had thought the rationalizations for teaching a dog to push on the bite were ridiculous but did not want to pursue it too far, especially in consideration of the possibility that I was "not sensitive to different venues". The one rationalization that I felt was particularly absurd was the dog was going to let go of the bite, and since it was moving backward would not be able to effectively re-bite. Kind of like envisioning a couple of kids playing tug of war and one side letting go and the other falling 10' back into a mud puddle or something. 

Peter was working Lance's dog Haak on the body suit as he has moved a little too much into prey for Lance's liking. The suit was custom made by Michael Schweikert according to LC's specifications. It is extremely heavy and is very thick. It was made to be able to take a bite to the middle of the body. A dog has to really bite hard to be able to hold on, as it is not soft and spongy like some suits I have seen. A tremendous amount of pressure was being put on the dog, in every aspect, from pre-bite pressure to driving the dog. Since the material is difficult to get a great grip (unlike an arm or leg), the dog came off a few times in the midst of pulling. It was able to re-bite instantly in every circumstance. As a matter of fact the re-bites in almost every case were spectacular strikes. In other words I feel the argument is no less absurd in the light of day. The other one about it being a moving target..well I still don't get the point. In many instances a big trial sleeve is a moving target as well, pre and post bite. I don't see many well trained dogs coming off bites in any of these scenarios..


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Steve Burger said:


> A tremendous amount of pressure was being put on the dog, in every aspect, from pre-bite pressure to driving the dog. Since the material is difficult to get a great grip (unlike an arm or leg), the dog came off a few times in the midst of pulling. It was able to re-bite instantly in every circumstance. As a matter of fact the re-bites in almost every case were spectacular strikes. In other words I feel the argument is no less absurd in the light of day. The other one about it being a moving target..well I still don't get the point. In many instances a big trial sleeve is a moving target as well, pre and post bite. I don't see many well trained dogs coming off bites in any of these
> 
> 
> A dog pulling will become disengaged. This one did, under pressure. Sure he mentally stayed in the fight and re bit. A dog that pushes might not have com off a slick surface in the first place. Great for this dog he did come back physically, into the fight.
> ...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Steve Burger said:


> I was watching training today with part of my mind on this thread. I had thought the rationalizations for teaching a dog to push on the bite were ridiculous but did not want to pursue it too far, especially in consideration of the possibility that I was "not sensitive to different venues". The one rationalization that I felt was particularly absurd was the dog was going to let go of the bite, and since it was moving backward would not be able to effectively re-bite. Kind of like envisioning a couple of kids playing tug of war and one side letting go and the other falling 10' back into a mud puddle or something. .


Steve, hopefully you'll respond here, not trying to go all uncle LOU on you with the dissecting of the posts, but I find I disagree with your assumptions and possibly assesments, that you so forcefully put forth in this post.

You forgot a few other RIDICULOUS rationalizations for preferring a dog push with the grip. and again wheh I say push, I do not mean necessarily trying to physically push a person around, but pushing his grip, his bodily fighting behaviors could be varied. Any of the following reasons I suppose would not make much difference if the dog is going to only be worked in IPO on a trial sleeve with a bite bar. But with a belgian syle sleeve or a suit, or even for real I think there may be some validity for these reasons.

The training decoy can actually feel the dogs grip around his body part to gauge it, work it, react to it, improve it. A dog that pulls will inevitably pull the material away from the body, making it impossible to actually feel what is going on with the grip, because the dog is not biting the decoy in the suit, he is biting only the suit. 

here is a video of a dog with a pushing grip on a suit. nothing special no hugely aggressive countering going on, but decent video to watch grip with my dog in training with a SCH helper who has never worked a dog in a suit promoting that type of grip, he has worked in suit before, but not to promote a pushing grip specifically. He too had his doubts, initially when I started working with him. But now encourages it in every non-IPO dog that he works with, because he sees more power, can feel the grip, and feels it promotes much more domination over the decoy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tE4iCm_-Kk8

here is his kid doing a couple leg bites, another guy new to this type of grip promotion, actually the first time on the legs purposely with her. again nothing big, but can see the gripping behavior.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fX8iG2MQfTs&feature=youtu.be

Here is a dog that pulls on a suit. arms and legs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QD5WiGFGgc

It should be very clear, which decoys can feel the grip and adjust accordingly to promote a better grip.

It also should be fairly clear as to which dog wants to engage the decoy with its mouth, work it on the man, and attempt to dominate the decoy in a more personal fashion.

Some people (not saying you) look at fight drive as a dog trying to fight the decoy FOR the suit, trying to pull it away from the man, others view it as fighting the decoy IN the suit, as seen below...a better, more experienced dog on the arm, with pushing grip better countering. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XswhqKJ5ls

and a puller
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4TC1SXC6hs&playnext=1&list=PLFE85A30D1F33EE91&feature=results_main

again should be pretty clear as to which dog is trying to dominate and fight the decoy. 

The pulling dogs will surely leave some pinching bruises on your arms, and legs, as his grip slips off of your body, and his front teeth nip into you while he closes his mouth and is trying to pull the suit from you, but they do not cause muscle trauma and bone bruising like a pushing dog crushing down on you with his molars can, went a dog is trying to bite you in the suit.
Which dogs do you think get a better grip workout for their jaw muscles in the suit? 



> Peter was working Lance's dog Haak on the body suit as he has moved a little too much into prey for Lance's liking. The suit was custom made by Michael Schweikert according to LC's specifications. It is extremely heavy and is very thick. It was made to be able to take a bite to the middle of the body.


Most suits are made to be able to take a bite to the body, that is why thet are suits 



> A dog has to really bite hard to be able to hold on, as it is not soft and spongy like some suits I have seen.


ok. suits *do* come in various thicknesses and hardness. 



> A tremendous amount of pressure was being put on the dog, in every aspect, from pre-bite pressure to driving the dog. Since the material is difficult to get a great grip (unlike an arm or leg), the dog came off a few times in the midst of pulling. It was able to re-bite instantly in every circumstance. As a matter of fact the re-bites in almost every case were spectacular strikes.


Yes it is more difficult for many dogs to keep a grip on a stomach or chest bite, that is shape of the surface moreso than the material. sometimes dogs will look to re-target for something they can really sink their teeth into, regardless of the suit type, did his dog go straight back to the stomach? really just curious..

I looked around online and could not really find videos of good stomach bites on the suit to try to compare. maybe someone can.

it is too bad this was not video'd I would like to see it and draw my own conclusions, as I am not sure of your experience in suit biting dogs. I assume it is not on video?

I also wonder what you might call EXTREME pressure...while I realize these videos are allowing for easier entries, would you say the driving was comparable in pressure to these videos of good moderate pressure? it is not super EXTREME, but certainly is pressure..again...video? would really like to see what EXTREME pressure looks like to someone else.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UC4iYosiH5s&list=UUsBwSSZg7-4FkkW1pWhuM8A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KO3f7rD1GRk&list=UUsBwSSZg7-4FkkW1pWhuM8A

That dog has a pushing grip...I might actually pay a little money (like $5.00 lol) to see a video of a dog the pulls on a suit as his normal biting style, undergo something similar and stay on the bite...I have never met one that would I dont think...there might be 1000'a of them for all I know, but I would love to see even just 1.



> In other words I feel the argument is no less absurd in the light of day. The other one about it being a moving target..well I still don't get the point. In many instances a big trial sleeve is a moving target as well, pre and post bite.


In the light of day? anything to show? like a video? so everyone can judge whether the argument is absurd? if not, I would say it is only out in the open in your mind, not out in the light of day for all to see and process.

Not understanding the one about the moving target here? are you trying to compare gripping styles or the type of equipment? like a sleeve to a suit? 



> I don't see many well trained dogs coming off bites in any of these scenarios.


I thought you were talking about a well trained dog that DID come off the the bites in the scenario?

there are other reasons people like the push, besides working the grip in the suit, teaching the dogs to find and dominate and control the decoy.

Most dogs that are worked in a suit KNOW it is a suit, they also KNOW there is a guy inside the suit, that they can make contact with, and punish, so I am not really sure why anyone doing regular suit work, would actually want the dog to pull, cant think of one reason in reality, some dogs sure do pull, some people dont care, but I cant think of a reason that someone would want the dog to pull, unless thier dog is an IPO dog, can you?

A pulling grip will lose major points in NVBK, it will also lose major points in PSA, the KNPV doesnt really judge grips, but the pushing type is preferred, as pulling dogs are mostly viewed as weaker dogs, rightly or wrongly, MondioRing does not really judge the grips persay either, but watch the training videos, pushing grip is encouraged in that sport as well, hell even the FR guys mostly prefer a pushing grip, at least the ones I talk to.

So in reality, every other major biting sport aside from IPO (and maybe swedish protection) the vast majority of trainers, owners and breeders, want and prefer dogs with pushing grips, even most of the police and military guys if given a choice will prefer the pushing crushing grip in a suit, instead of a dog that pulls on it, I would bet, at least the ones I talk to. 

I guess my last question is, since you seem to have an open mind on this subject,  why do you think that is, why would almost every other sport and work seem to overwhelmingly prefer something personally find absurd??


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

above push pull topic moved to here...to keep from getting buried and to keep this one on topic. 

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f30/pulling-pushing-moved-25575/#post367343


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## Marcelo Villanueva (Apr 8, 2012)

Joby Becker said:


> I dont think so..
> 
> fight is more prey than defense.. In my opinion....
> 
> ...


Pulling or Pushing has no bearing on the drive a dog is working in. I once thought so; but I was wrong. 

You must look at the overall picture based on the training, because a dog, in any split second during engagement is sliding in and out of prey and defense drive. The way a dog shifts in drives is very fluid and as a Helper I try to tap into conflict/stress while keeping the dog in Prey. 

It’s a fine balance.

The natural fighting technique for dogs is situational to that dog. 

It may be to PULL or it may be to PUSH (including thrashing), however in IPO the most effective way to stop a man without causing stress to a dog's teeth, neck and spine on the hard arm; is to PULL.

It also shows the physical ability of the dog to stop a Helper. 

If a dog PUSHES into the bite during a proper IPO drive; physics and mechanics of a dogs body and teeth causes stress on the dog (physical force placed on the dogs neck/spine and teeth), and the only way to reduce this stress is to PULL or readjust it's bite or thrash which most times means the bite quality is suffering because the dogs mouth is actually opening and shifting while on the bite. 

If you have NOT taught your dog to PULL, your dogs bite quality will suffer considerably during trial with a good trial Helper who is taught to drive into the dog directly.

The PULLING activity is encouraged by good training Helpers both during a drive and escape bites.

The hardness of the bite is the strongest when a dog is pulling. physics again; if you are pulling with your hands you are clamping closed your hand the strongest and if you release slightly the tension you may loose what you are pulling, while if you are pushing you can actually release the tension on your hands and use your body more to PUSH.

Everything we do ...don't care what format or program you train, is taught or promoted situationally in one form or another including the PULLING or PUSHING while on the bite. 

Prey bites in IPO are bites that are initiated through movement of equipment i.e. the sleeve is moved to a bite position to reward the dog for performing a certain way. 

In trial this can be detrimental because world class Helpers are taught NOT to present the arm, World Class Helpers are taught to freeze in a manner with the sleeve already positioned across the body before the “out” is given, and the trial Helper is to threat (attack) with the raising of the stick, and no movement of the sleeve unless it’s to protect themselves because of the way they are situated during the “out”. 

The dog is then expected to engage directly into the HELPER center mass. 

This is to show the judge the intent and commitment of the dog to engage the Helper without chasing a piece of equipment, and then to PULL (fight) for ownership, of the situation.

I have trained in Fr Ring ...I started out in a Fr Ring suit and was the training Decoy to the only dog so far that has attained a Belg Ring Certificate in Canada (to my knowledge).

Show me a Ring trial where a dog is driven while on the bite? Most Decoys will swing the dog’s never driving into them directly in the same form a good IPO Helper does. Two totally different techniques.

The training in the Ring program is different, with very little conflict between decoy and dog during the bite work. In fact during bitework the Decoy often times becomes surrogate Handlers during protection work. This happens more in Ring then in IPO, although it does happen as well in IPO.

Ring dogs are promoted to PUSH into the bite and for every pushing activity by the dog, the Decoy steps back and gives way; indeed even encouraging the dog to re-bite for a fuller bite even when the bite is already full....this promoting of PUSHING in and continually readjusting for a fuller bite (even when the bite is full) we do not do in IPO.

We want the dogs in IPO to feel conflict with the Helper, to bite hard, and PULL once engaged and to not shift or readjust it's bite. 

I’ve found that once a dog can handle stress and deal with the conflict/stress that the Helper gives; and the dog wins, the dogs are more explosive and serious in their work because of the conflict they have overcome with the Helper, and then it's just training again to continue to promote overcoming conflict, a full mouth bite and the pulling combined. 

Not all dogs can handle this training. Not all dogs were meant to handle this training, and if you own a dog that can’t handle this training you must adjust your training accordingly, for such a dog.

As an IPO Helper I do not promote a dog to PUSH in.

Cheers,
Chello...


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

Joby:

I was primarily speaking to the argument that the dog cannot re-bite if pulling. I am not a ring guy. I trust what you are saying that within the rules of ring, especially where decoys are allowed to re-present bite targets that it may be the optimal way for you to train. For an IPO trainer to train this way to me is absurd. There are a few dogs that come to mind to me that I would like to see work on a such a suit. I shudder to think of trying to work a couple of those dogs on the arm sleeve you showed in the video of what you described as the more experienced dog. 

In regards to dogs coming off the bite. I was speaking In regards to a sleeve, and that is why I mentioned that scenario with the dog on the suit. In our setting suit work is only done with dogs that are out of balance..locked in prey. For example my bitch is unlikely to ever be worked on a suit because she is quite balanced in her work. She shows the same level of aggression, intensity and barking whether the equipment is there or not. She has also showed she will bite the helper whether the sleeve is there or not, so we actually had to devote several sessions to her deciding it was not a beneficial endeavor for her. So the suit training we do is geared toward teaching the dog to bite the center of the body and not arms or legs. The idea being to teach the dog it is about the man not the equipment. 

This thread was mostly derailed a while ago.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Steve Burger said:


> The idea being to teach the dog it is about the man not the equipment.


Thanks for the reply Steve. I see the point.

The quote above is a huge reason that pushing grips are preferred in dogs biting suits.

Suitwork is similar, dogs often make it about the equipment.
A dog that is happy pulling on a suit, for me, is not a dog that is about the man in the equipment, and if it is actually about the man and not the suit, and he is pulling it often is that he is trying to get away from the man, others drive into the man. 

IF he is constantly trying to fill his mouth. and keep ahold of the man in the suit, that is to me, a much better dog. that is what I mean py pushing grip. not really what he is doing with his body to try to fight...

I have worked SCH dogs in the suit, that after a few times with good work, will try to punch in and find me in there on the body, or will counter back in to regain control of a limb that gets slipped out of their mouths...some never will do that.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Steve Burger said:


> Joby:
> 
> I was primarily speaking to the argument that the dog cannot re-bite if pulling. I am not a ring guy. I trust what you are saying that within the rules of ring, especially where decoys are allowed to re-present bite targets that it may be the optimal way for you to train.


the post actually had very little to do with French ring. decoys in ring do not re-present targets, unless it is to fake a dog out, ring decoys are doing things to NOT get bit at all, they are there to steal as many points as possible.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Steve Burger said:


> Joby:
> 
> I was primarily speaking to the argument that the dog cannot re-bite if pulling. I am not a ring guy. I trust what you are saying that within the rules of ring, especially where decoys are allowed to re-present bite targets that it may be the optimal way for you to train. For an IPO trainer to train this way to me is absurd. There are a few dogs that come to mind to me that I would like to see work on a such a suit. I shudder to think of trying to work a couple of those dogs on the arm sleeve you showed in the video of what you described as the more experienced dog.
> 
> ...


My point was sport related. To get better input for pushing vs. pulling I would want to hear from an IPO. person. I see the point of inciting the opposition reflex to get the dog to not move his grip which is important in IPO. I believe filling the mouth so much that it can't get fuller will provide the same if not better points (but that is purely speculation as I am not scoring points in IPO). i wonder if a dog pushing and wrapping his legs around a helper, would throw a helper off used to a dog pulling like an ever so heavy suitcase on his arm. There was a little mockery in that, but it is difficult to fight dogs that push or pull, in my opinion. Just wonder if an IPO helper would have more trouble with a dog that pushed.


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## Marcelo Villanueva (Apr 8, 2012)

Dave Colborn said:


> My point was sport related. To get better input for pushing vs. pulling I would want to hear from an IPO. person. I see the point of inciting the opposition reflex to get the dog to not move his grip which is important in IPO. I believe filling the mouth so much that it can't get fuller will provide the same if not better points (but that is purely speculation as I am not scoring points in IPO). i wonder if a dog pushing and wrapping his legs around a helper, would throw a helper off used to a dog pulling like an ever so heavy suitcase on his arm. There was a little mockery in that, but it is difficult to fight dogs that push or pull, in my opinion. Just wonder if an IPO helper would have more trouble with a dog that pushed.


 
I am an IPO Helper (training Helper and Trial expereince) and i can tell you from my expereince that driving dogs that PUSH does not hinder me; as a matter of fact i can make a dog, that PUSHes into the bite, loose it's bite quality.

Also there are a few examples (online videos) where a dog that wraps their legs around a Helper have gotten their legs broken during a drive.

Cheers,
Chello...


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Marcelo Villanueva said:


> Also there are a few examples (online videos) where a dog that wraps their legs around a Helper have gotten their legs broken during a drive.
> 
> Cheers,
> Chello...


 
Chello, I have seen that happen when the helper trips over the dogs (back legs) but not the front. Do you happen to recall which video you saw that occur? I'm interested because my dog is a wrapper, if this is a legitimate risk I'd like to pass the video to my TD.

Dave, something I've noticed is the work with my dog seems to be a little more awkward especially for newer helpers who are accustomed to a pulling dog. She pushes in and almost seems to prefer closer/fuller physical contact. I have an unlisted video on You Tube of my husband working her. It looks awkward because he's pushing out on her to keep from her clawing him up. At one point though when he locks up you do see her pull on the sleeve until I out her.


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## Marcelo Villanueva (Apr 8, 2012)

Nicole Stark said:


> Chello, I have seen that happen when the helper trips over the dogs (back legs) but not the front. Do you happen to recall which video you saw that occur? I'm interested because my dog is a wrapper, if this is a legitimate risk I'd like to pass the video to my TD.
> 
> Dave, something I've noticed is the work with my dog seems to be a little more awkward especially for newer helpers who are accustomed to a pulling dog. She pushes in and almost seems to prefer closer/fuller physical contact. I have an unlisted video on You Tube of my husband working her. It looks awkward because he's pushing out on her to keep from her clawing him up. At one point though when he locks up you do see her pull on the sleeve until I out her.


For an experienced HELPER the pushing into the bite is not an issue. 

It is not awkward, and it is not difficult to control. 

In fact; personally i welcome such a dog on trial day, because it certainly makes MY job that day as a Trial Helper (Judge's Helper to expose weaknesses), much easier. 

Once an experienced Helper puts direct oppositional force towards the opposite direction a dog is PUSHING in, and the dog has not been taught how to deal with this....the dog will start to move out of the way and "come for the ride," or start thrashing the arm to help alleviate the pressure on their neck, spine and teeth, and with a strong Helper, the dog's bite will suffer. 

Regarding the videos...it's been a whiile since i've viewed them, if you look around you'll find them. One malinois championsip/worlds (might of even been a past FCI worlds) comes to mind, when quite a few dogs came off the field with broken legs.

Cheers,
Chello...


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## Lisa Radcliffe (Jun 9, 2011)

Marcelo Villanueva said:


> For an experienced HELPER the pushing into the bite is not an issue.
> 
> It is not awkward, and it is not difficult to control.
> 
> ...


I agree with you about dogs needing to be taught how to "deal with this" in IPO drives but if the dogs full bite and grip do not change how will it suffer? the bite-


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Thanks for the explanation. Along with Marcelo's, it gives a great description fo the physical mechanics given the equipment involved especially on the drive which is what I was getting at in the drive thread. Also there's a huge difference for me in terms of seeing dogs pulling away from something and dogs dropping their weight as a oppositional force.


T


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## Marcelo Villanueva (Apr 8, 2012)

Lisa Radcliffe said:


> I agree with you about dogs needing to be taught how to "deal with this" in IPO drives but if the dogs full bite and grip do not change how will it suffer? the bite-


 
Look at the mechanics of the proper IPO drive, especially the power drive. With two forces meeting at completely opposite direction...the dog is at the disadvantage because I (the Helper) don't feel the pain of the bite of a dog. The dog will have to utilize his body to push into the bite, and he can't over power me because i can't feel the pain of the bite....yes i feel the pressure of his bite (in a good dog) but unless the dog is going through the sleeve I'm in no pain. I (the Helper) won't allow the dog to push me backwards....however I (the Helper) will continue to push into the dog. Physics....two oppositional forces meet, one will loose. My bet is on a good IPO Helper.

The dog has no other recourse but to relieve the stress on its teeth (because the dog continues to push in), or starts to shake and thrash while on the bite of the sleeve. 

The dog will start to exhibit what you taught it to win in training...release and go fuller. 

Unfortunately against an opposition force that will not give in, not go weak, nor give way, a dog will learn to continue to exhibit his training (release go fuller, release go fuller) while the Helper is in perpetual motion of PUSHING the dog...the bite quality suffers (hectic biting, even chewing when a dog is excessively stressed). 

A good Helper will lock his elbow against his body to prevent the sleeve from being thrashed by a dog, while in the power drive and a dog will find it difficult to thrash without again releasing his bite to release the tension on his teeth and mouth, to push only to feel more over powering pressure against the dog.

A dog pushing against a Helper is in a loosing scenario, especially against a fast, explosive Helper.

The dogs' bite quality suffers because it is not calm. The bite shifts and a good IPO judge will judge this as a weakness, and they should.

Cheers,
Chello...


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Thanks for the explanation. Along with Marcelo's, it gives a great description fo the physical mechanics given the equipment involved especially on the drive which is what I was getting at in the drive thread. Also there's a huge difference for me in terms of seeing dogs pulling away from something and dogs dropping their weight as a oppositional force.
> 
> 
> T


I was referring to Greg's post from the Push/Pull/Moved thread. Read together, its an awesome explanation of the mechanics--something I've been wondering about:

_*I feel this is really sport specific. I can only comment on IPO and KNPV as that is what I've been exposed to. I do IPO with all my dogs and work them in a suit doing KNPV style training.

An IPO sleeve feels entirely different to a dog than a bite suit does. With an IPO sleeve, the dog can't feel any part of the human and the drive goal is stop the helper and win the arm. Also, in IPO the dog doesn't really have time to drive forwards in the grip as all five bites are with the helper driving the dog or trying to flee - meaning that the decoy is always moving. Therefore, downward pulling to stop the helper in his tracks is promoted. The IPO dog can't drive forwards on the bite when he is being driven. Once the helper surrenders and stops moving, the handler almost immediately orders his dog to release and guard in a trial. There isn't really any time for the dog to drive forwards on the grip unless he gets a short one because of the strike.

With a suit or suit material, the dog that is driving forwards is trying to feel the man. In an IPO sleeve, this is not possible. And, driving forwards is mostly promoted when there is static biting and there isn't a sleeve to win. Also, in KNPV there is a lot of static biting. Not so in IPO. So, their trainers promote the dog to drive forwards to get a full grip to overpower their decoy when he is passive. The dog feels comfort driving forwards because the suit gives much more bite satisfaction than an IPO sleeve does. The sleeve and suit are designed totally different and therefore feel much different to a dog.

I can tell you my dogs know the difference between a suit and a sleeve and also work entirely differently depending on what the decoy is wearing and also promoting. Pulling downward to overpower the helper and win the sleeve and drive forwards in the grip to overpower the decoy with the suit on.

Just my two cents. - Greg*_


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## Marcelo Villanueva (Apr 8, 2012)

You want to see effective PULLING on a suit?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JORlVWNfDTQ


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

Marcelo Villanueva said:


> You want to see effective PULLING on a suit?
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JORlVWNfDTQ


I think you are right, it is _possible_ to have an effective bite while pulling. I think it just depends on the situation as well. 

BUT, a couple those bites all that dog had was a mouthful of suit, which is going to translate to a live deployment. 

That video also brings up a good point, those big fluffy bite suits that are not properly fitted and snug to the person, promote iffy bite behaviors, IMO. I'm always happier with my dogs' bites on the fitted suits than the fluffy ones that have too much dead space in them.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Marcelo Villanueva said:


> The dogs' bite quality suffers because it is not calm. The bite shifts and a good IPO judge will judge this as a weakness, and they should.
> 
> Cheers,
> Chello...


Hey Chello, I may have given you the impression that during those times her grip shifts. It doesn't, I meant that she physically will push her body forward and if given the opportunity will wrap the inexperienced "helper". I think you may have mixed up my statements with some sort of argument or disagreement about what does or doesn't happen with an IPO trained dog who digs in. That wasn't what I was commenting on.


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## Marcelo Villanueva (Apr 8, 2012)

Nicole Stark said:


> Hey Chello, I may have given you the impression that during those times her grip shifts. It doesn't, I meant that she physically will push her body forward and if given the opportunity will wrap the inexperienced "helper". I think you may have mixed up my statements with some sort of argument or disagreement about what does or doesn't happen with an IPO trained dog who digs in. That wasn't what I was commenting on.


Hi Nicole,

No worries...when i talk here i'm talking in general terms (at least i try too) and by no means am i referencing anyone or anyone's dogs per se.

Just trying to impart what I've come to understand, the way i understand it, from my expereince(s).

Cheers,
Chello....


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## Lisa Radcliffe (Jun 9, 2011)

Marcelo Villanueva said:


> Look at the mechanics of the proper IPO drive, especially the power drive. With two forces meeting at completely opposite direction...the dog is at the disadvantage because I (the Helper) don't feel the pain of the bite of a dog. The dog will have to utilize his body to push into the bite, and he can't over power me because i can't feel the pain of the bite....yes i feel the pressure of his bite (in a good dog) but unless the dog is going through the sleeve I'm in no pain. I (the Helper) won't allow the dog to push me backwards....however I (the Helper) will continue to push into the dog. Physics....two oppositional forces meet, one will loose. My bet is on a good IPO Helper.
> 
> The dog has no other recourse but to relieve the stress on its teeth (because the dog continues to push in), or starts to shake and thrash while on the bite of the sleeve.
> 
> ...


I understand the mechanics I was not thinking about chewy bites but a full hard bite that does not move, but I agree in that situation it would not be considered calm and it looks like the dog has more power than the helper hence the fast, explosive helper who can lock his elbow against his body-


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## Jake Brandyberry (Jan 24, 2010)

Marcelo what part of that video shows effective pulling, where the decoy intentionally fell to the ground or when he dives out of the car?


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Jake Brandyberry said:


> Marcelo what part of that video shows effective pulling, where the decoy intentionally fell to the ground or when he dives out of the car?


Pretty sure he was kidding, Jake.


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## Marcelo Villanueva (Apr 8, 2012)

HAHAHA...

@ Jake Brandyberry and @ Dave Colborn:

Perhaps this video is more to your liking of effective pulling on a suit?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQ8ZoiolaNg

Cheers,
Chello...


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