# Questions on personal protection w/ rottweiler



## halie lenk

So I'm coming to realize my rottweiler probably wont be best suited for sport. And am doing more research into personal protection. I know this is a loaded subject for working dog people. (I know the liabilities, and how to control a dog, and I do have safety reasons for wanting a 'real biting dog')
My question is would it be detrimental to have him work on a decoy who does sport? Mondio to be exact.
He's 6 months, and we've done TONS of work on OB (sport type), and very minimal bitework. Like only doing it myself by back-tying him and teasing him with a tug and a rolled towel (which he prefers). We are starting more serious bitework at a club next week. Is there anything in particular I should look out for or ask of them to make sure I don't screw anything up for personal protection type training?


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## rick smith

re: "So I'm coming to realize my rottweiler probably wont be best suited for sport."
??? imo, that needs further explanation 

you have posted about the OB work, which would NOT rule out sport work of any kind.....

** but "nothing heard" about the protection side 

what does the club have to say, what is the problem, and why would you still consider personal protection if the dog has problems with engaging and gripping ? (if that is the problem)


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## rick smith

otoh, having a big bad looking dog that will bark on command would give you some degree of "personal protection" and deter many potential problems 

will it do that ??


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## halie lenk

Sorry, I know I didn't explain much. Just didn't want to write a novel. Lol
The reason I'm thinking he won't be best for sport is that he's got pretty low prey drive. And it's probably my fault, that I didn't build it enough as he's been younger. BUT I also haven't done any real bite work with him yet (slow maturing dog and my original club didn't have a facility to use all winter). So maybe I'm getting ahead of myself. And a decoy that knows what he's doing can get him going. 
He has 100% engagement. (I'm proud of that work) thanks for the input Rick. I need to just get him going in the club and find out what he's really capabe of from there.


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## halie lenk

I need to stop making posts the moment I get worried about my dog not doing something right. Lol


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## Paul Cipparone

I have had experience with low to medium type dogs. From what you have said , " 6 months old , tons of sort type obedience" . Here is what i do with " all " dogs that come in for "PP (bite , threat or sport) Look at training like a triangle, with tracking , protection at the base corners , with obedience in the middle. I concentrate most heavily on the protection( agitation) work , followed closely with tracking (presumably if you are interested in schH sport) on the other base corner, with the obedience in the centre following well behind to all reach the top.( the obedience was the last to arrive at the top) It also sounds like you have done too much obedience at such a young age.
I do post work (back tie) myself for all dogs intended to do bite work. At the 8 foot length , i teach timing , targeting, high /low, left /right, bite work on the tug. I then move to 25 foot range ( now a handler needs to control the dog , to allow smooth feed out of the long line. I do the same sequence of work at the longer length, incorporating more chase., leading to " the courage test" ( back-up catch first)
. This also teaches the dog to work away from the handler. All done on the tug.
I find doing too much obedience / stress at an young age can deter drives needed for the work you have in mind.
Example , had a male Rottweiler come in for training ,to have me put a schH title on him. He was not highly driven in many respects , but i managed to bring him to a level , to attain his schH1 & also high in trial , high in tracking ( DVG) that is as far as we could go with him. He lacked the desire & drives to go on.


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## Gillian Schuler

halie lenk said:


> I need to stop making posts the moment I get worried about my dog not doing something right. Lol


Maybe :grin:

But don't worry. At 6 months there's more to be gained from a dog.


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## Gillian Schuler

Paul Cipparone said:


> I have had experience with low to medium type dogs. From what you have said , " 6 months old , tons of sort type obedience" . Here is what i do with " all " dogs that come in for "PP (bite , threat or sport) Look at training like a triangle, with tracking , protection at the base corners , with obedience in the middle. I concentrate most heavily on the protection( agitation) work , followed closely with tracking (presumably if you are interested in schH sport) on the other base corner, with the obedience in the centre following well behind to all reach the top.( the obedience was the last to arrive at the top) It also sounds like you have done too much obedience at such a young age.
> I do post work (back tie) myself for all dogs intended to do bite work. At the 8 foot length , i teach timing , targeting, high /low, left /right, bite work on the tug. I then move to 25 foot range ( now a handler needs to control the dog , to allow smooth feed out of the long line. I do the same sequence of work at the longer length, incorporating more chase., leading to " the courage test" ( back-up catch first)
> . This also teaches the dog to work away from the handler. All done on the tug.
> I find doing too much obedience / stress at an young age can deter drives needed for the work you have in mind.
> Example , had a male Rottweiler come in for training ,to have me put a schH title on him. He was not highly driven in many respects , but i managed to bring him to a level , to attain his schH1 & also high in trial , high in tracking ( DVG) that is as far as we could go with him. He lacked the desire & drives to go on.


I think this is very good advice. I have trained with a number of Rottweilers. In Germany, my breeder, also a Schutzhund helper asked me to tie my GSD out next to the Rottweiler to motivate him.

The Rottweilers I saw at this Club were slow to react in protection work. The Club was near Rottweil!

In Switzerland I have come across a number of good Rottweilers. We had good contact to a local Rottweiler Club. One of my friends has a Rottweiler in the Police Force.

Don't give up too easily.There is always satisfaction in getting good notes in a local trial.


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## Gillian Schuler

And:

To choose a dog that will exceed at Worlds is ok. To choose a breed of dog that satisfies your inner feelings of how a dog should be, is something else but maybe more satisfying.


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## Travis Ragin

halie lenk said:


> My question is would it be detrimental to have him work on a decoy who does sport? Mondio to be exact.


No. Not detrimental at all.





halie lenk said:


> Is there anything in particular I should look out for or ask of them to make sure I don't screw anything up for personal protection type training?


One thing in particular to look for....is to see if the decoy begins to work your dog in the same exact manner as the dogs being trained for Mondio. If that occurs, you will not be getting the exact services you are exactly paying for(assuming).

Ask them to conduct some training in the fashion that you will anticipate employing your dog during his/your family lifetime. In other words, far away from the club and club field. Build the foundation where the building will stand.


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## rick smith

*is asking*

if i'm reading this thread correctly, it seems like you want to be sure sport bite work will not conflict with your goals of personal protection

yes or no ??

i have strong feelings on this based on dogs that were started in bite work at a club that did NOT have what it takes to do the job of personal protection in a real world family environment. the dogs performed in sport but sucked as a PPD

primarily because the dog was not clear head enough and balanced enough to know the difference of when to be aggressive in a family/personal environment

i think it takes a MUCH more balanced dog to be a serious personal protection dog than it does to perform on a trial field 

i do not see how Paul's advice deals with this question even tho i agree the techniques he outlines are just fine for laying a foundation for bite work

won't go further with this if it is considered off topic; just want to try and keep the PP and sport bite work tied together if that is what your Q

i think it would help if people who have a PPD who also do sport work, weighed in with their viewpoints to fully answer your question

you can get an eval for sport bite work, but i don't feel that the eval will also be valid for PPD and that the two venues do not automatically cross over
- and i know there will be many here who do not agree with that 

ok....so i mentioned a dog who will bark on command ...
- it was only a partial joke 
but just how much "personal protection" do you want your Rottie to provide you and your family ??

iow, are you doing sport because you want to get compete and get titles, or are you doing sport to teach your dog to be a PPD ? 
what's the mix ?

if this is not relevant ..... back to teaching bite work


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## Bob Scott

I think many 6 month old Rott pups are probably just clueless babies that need maturity. 

You say low prey. Have you tried working the pup with a flirt pole? 

That can often trigger prey that you don't initially see.


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## Sarah Platts

I'm going to echo Bob. I have a hunting breed, this pup didn't start showing any prey drive until he was over a year old. Twelve months of no issues with the farm stock and he shot that all to heck when over the matter of a couple of days took out both a chicken and a cat. I always considered rotties to be slow bloomers so it would not surprise me to see him come out when he gets closer to 1 year of age.


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## halie lenk

Wow. Thank you everyone for such great and thorough advice. It's all exactly what I was looking for. 
1)the obedience I've done so far has been ellis-style, and i didn't think it would hurt his drive (per paul). I knew if I wanted a biting dog, his OB better be top notch. And not so interested in schh sport. So the tracking hasn't been on my list. Though I thank you so much for all the outline of training. I wish we could have done more bite work before now, but no indoor facility through winter, and a slow maturing dog anyway
2) My sport (psa or mondio) goals aren't to go to the top. Not with this dog at least. And him being my 1st foray into sport and bite training. So GILLIAN your quote about getting a dog best suited for yourself was right on


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## halie lenk

One thing in particular to look for....is to see if the decoy begins to work your dog in the same exact manner as the dogs being trained for Mondio. If that occurs, you will not be getting the exact services you are exactly paying for(assuming).

Ask them to conduct some training in the fashion that you will anticipate employing your dog during his/your family lifetime. In other words, far away from the club and club field. Build the foundation where the building will stand.[/QUOTE]

This was the exact answer I was looking for. Thank you!

Rick and Bob: ' patience, young grasshopper' is what you're saying? Haha. I'm interested in sport for the titles, and something fun to do with him and prove I can. And that's what the clubs close enough to me do. No regular breed clubs or pp clubs. I'm MORE interested in the training of a dog that will bite for real. Not just a 'prey/sport' dog. I know everyone has their own version of what that means...


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## halie lenk

Rick: "if i'm reading this thread correctly, it seems like you want to be sure sport bite work will not conflict with your goals of personal protection

yes or no ??"

Yes! Exactly 
and on the matter of 'how much protection' a dog that won't fold under pressure. And not just a barking deterrent. The way I see it, a person who is brave enough to try to get a barking rottweiler to back down, is posing a very real threat. And needs to be bitten. And the dog will also provide enough time to get my gun. (I have met men crazy enough to try to get through a barking dog when agitated enough. And that's where the true threat is)


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## Bob Scott

halie lenk said:


> Rick: "if i'm reading this thread correctly, it seems like you want to be sure sport bite work will not conflict with your goals of personal protection
> 
> yes or no ??"
> 
> Yes! Exactly
> and on the matter of 'how much protection' a dog that won't fold under pressure. And not just a barking deterrent. The way I see it, a person who is brave enough to try to get a barking rottweiler to back down, is posing a very real threat. And needs to be bitten. And the dog will also provide enough time to get my gun. (I have met men crazy enough to try to get through a barking dog when agitated enough. And that's where the true threat is)



Serious answer

If a person is serious about backing down a barking Rottweiler and they know what they are doing then chances are they will do just that.

For those who legitimately need a PPD my advice is always to get a CCW (conceal carry). 

Look at the dog as being a method to slow down the dog enough for you to get your gun.


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## halie lenk

Bob Scott said:


> Serious answer
> 
> If a person is serious about backing down a barking Rottweiler and they know what they are doing then chances are they will do just that.
> 
> For those who legitimately need a PPD my advice is always to get a CCW (conceal carry).
> 
> Look at the dog as being a method to slow down the dog enough for you to get your gun.


Bob I could have swore I had that typed in my answer. Must have got deleted when I edited it. For that real of a threat, he will give me time to get the .380 I have on me.


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## mark altman

I have a 15 month old intact Rottweiler that has done very good in obedience training .But his drive seems low and trying to get him into bite work now .I was told to hold off on bite work to he was about 15 months we can get his drive up with a little agitating he is not a big barker but then. Again I have owned Rottweilers before when the kids where young and they are not big barkers.Want to get his pray drive up.if anyone could help sure would appreciate it.
Thanks mark


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## Timothy Saunders

I will say this . The sport work only hurts if the decoy discourages things that are good for a ppd. If he teaches him good how to bite, good targeting and how to be confident you should be o.k. .


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## Travis Ragin

Timothy Saunders said:


> The sport work only hurts if the decoy discourages things that are good for a ppd. If he teaches him good how to bite, good targeting


What's *'good for a PPD' * will be determined by the owner/handler the dog is protecting, and the trainer conducting the sessions.

Good bites, bad bites, good targeting ,bad targeting.......are terms that on a sport field that can/are used to calculate a score.

Biting.......is the very last resort, action, and shortest engagement time that will most likely ever take place in a situation off of the sport field. Real world PPD involves a lifetime of 99.9% *protecting*-and then there is that very small sliver of a chance remaining of having to actually *bite*.


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## mark altman

And yes Iam looking for PPD in my 15 month old Rottweiler not that much sport just trying to increase his prey drive trying to get him to keep hitting decoy


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## mark altman

My Rottweiler is not responding.to the decoy fast enough his pray drive seems low he has a good bite on the sleeve and a hell of a tug still trying to build his bark up also any suggestion.or maybe he is still young have been told a lot of Rottweilers don't start to about two plus years . Can any one help with this 
and if I did not say he is 15 months and intact:


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## rick smith

Halie 
how did the club work go ?
are you still on your thread ?


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## mark altman

mark altman said:


> My Rottweiler is not responding.to the decoy fast enough his pray drive seems low he has a good bite on the sleeve and a hell of a tug still trying to build his bark up also any suggestion.or maybe he is still young have been told a lot of Rottweilers don't start to about two plus years . Can any one help with this
> and if I did not say he is 15 months and intact:


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## halie lenk

rick smith said:


> Halie
> how did the club work go ?
> are you still on your thread ?


Totally forgot that I said I would post an update. lol sorry. 
He did pretty well. They said they were pretty impressed with him. But they want me to just do bitework there for a few weeks, to get him focused in that drive. 
The past couple weeks he has really matured, and starting to get more intense, bold and focused on the ball and tug. 
Another thing I noticed, he's definitely starting to get more 'alert'. Watching people around me a lot, barking a little when people come in the house (before he figures out it's family). And while at work, a coworker came in wearing a hood. He gave a few low woofs, and when she walked past him he jumped off the cot he was on and trotted after her, running into her and staring her down until she talked and he recognized her. 
I'm assuming thats a good thing right? Confidence to approach things he's unsure about?
I know it'll have to be kept in check though.


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## rick smith

Halie

glad to hear there is progress

and be glad if you are training a PPD that you don't follow the japanese custom for entering a house. 
- it is perfectly acceptable for someone to open your front door if it is unlocked and announce their presence. ours is rarely locked 

since our house is also a business, when we first got my current house dog, suffice it to say ... it was a "problem" and a challenge //lol//
- especially since we have young kids coming here for ballet lessons //lol//

took about a year before i trusted him 100% inside the house. i could write a book on this subject alone.....hahaha 
- plus i often board dogs outside, and "outside" is very close to our front door //lol//

on the plus side ... the training opportunities are never ending !!


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## halie lenk

One more reason I'll never move to Japan... LOL
I want a protection dog for a reason. My doors are always locked, my gun always at my side, and so are my dogs. Can't be too careful in this world anymore. Especially being a woman. But thats another topic of discussion..
Anyway, dog is making me happy. And I think he'll make a very good deterent and commited dog. Only time will tell. I'll start another thread when I have more questions


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## mark altman

i have seen the decoys work in the past and i think he seems to no when to back away not to break the dogs confidants level just trying to bring more out off him right now and we are kinda stuck outside right now and the weather is not the best we had a inside building put something happened with the owner they said we will have new building like next month thanks for the advice


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## rick smith

since you brought it up 
"My doors are always locked, my gun always at my side, and so are my dogs. Can't be too careful in this world anymore. Especially being a woman. But thats another topic of discussion.."

actually, those sounded like reasons why you should move here //lol//

and there's more ;-)
- you could also save money by not needing theft insurance for your car
- if you had kids they could play safely and unattended in any park after school
- if you were young and single and worked nights, you could safely walk home from work thru those same dark parks
- if you took a bus and left your purse on it you'd have a very good chance of picking it up the next day

- last but not least ... if your PPD bit someone in your house who did not have your permission to be there, you would have ZERO risk of being arrested or sued //lol//

i do miss my guns....u can only use shotguns for hunting over here :-(
but with my navy background i tend to be more security conscious than the average resident //lol//
...my wife reminds me of that all the time ;-)

good luck with your training ... train hard and train safe .... and i hope you never need it to do its job


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