# Thoughts about aggression



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

In my late-night rambling thoughts, I had a thought about aggression. I'm wondering what your thoughts are about this:

"Aggression is a function of drive. The more driven the dog, the more potential for aggression."

Agree?


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

sounds OK but if a dog has Fear agression what drive is it????


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I think the word aggression covers to much area.
A high drive working retiever is hard to beat for drive. At the same time a good retriever is rarely aggressive. You could say he aggressively pursues a downed bird. In that sense aggression is a part of drive but not in the same sense as we (bite dog folks).


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Fear aggression - survival drive

Yeah - I'm thinking aggression is the broad sense. Example: My dogs have high food drive, they eat their food and strive to earn treats in an aggressive/highly motivated manner, and they become food aggressive when provoked.

When I was thinking about retrievers, I changed my wording from "The more driven the dog, the aggressive the dog." to "The more driven the dog, the more potential for aggression." 

Here are some more notes:

Sexual (reproduction) drive = same-gender aggression, maternal aggression 
Food drive = food/treat aggression
Survival drive = fear aggression, self-defense aggression, resource guarding

When I got down to it, the only aggression not accounted for by a drive was true defense. Is true defense an unnatural dog behavior that is developed through building confidence and reducing stress in self-defense? Or is true defens somethign that can be selectively bred for - like dog-vs-dog aggression can be selectively bred for.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

dominance agression= everything is mine, incl my own space, my food, my toy, my female etc...


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Anne Vaini said:


> Fear aggression - survival drive
> 
> Yeah - I'm thinking aggression is the broad sense. Example: My dogs have high food drive, they eat their food and strive to earn treats in an aggressive/highly motivated manner, and they become food aggressive when provoked..



But then I don't think food aggression is related to food drive. I have a dog that is over the top food drive. She will do backflips for food, she will drop a toy for food, she pushes all the bowls around the kitchen for 30 minutes after she finishes, she would be a roly poly if allowed (she will gorge herself if accidentaly allowed access to excess food) ........... but she has no agression concerning food. I can take her food away from her [I don't do it for fun but if I forget to add glucosamine or something] and no aggression. I can remove food from her mouth if she is eating something she should not be eating no agression.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I think aggression relates to temperment, not so much drives.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

To me, they are related, but totally seperate. If that makes sense. If it were math, it would be 2 seperate charts that loosely correspond to eachother, but they would still be 2 seperate charts, rather than charting aggression level on the same chart as drive level. Make sense? Probably not. Oh well.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Actually that makes perfect sense to me.


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

A few years back I took some bites from a GSDXMal that had absolutely no interest in chasing a ball or playing with toys, etc. However, he liked to bite! I took a fair number of bites from him and while I do believe the dog was serious, I believe the dog also knew that he and I were not really in a true fight. However, one day I was taking a bite from him and I accidentally stepped on one of his paws and he got pissed and bit the living hell out of me (sleeve). 

My novice guess is that there is no correlation betwee drive and aggression. Many working dogs are bred to have both but that doesn't mean they are intertwined. But I wouldn't swear my soul on it!


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> dominance agression= everything is mine, incl my own space, my food, my toy, my female etc...


I disagree as you can have nerve bag growly dogs (like my parent's Vizsla) that are deeply possessive of food, toys, their crate or place on the floor (or bed, God forbid!), but that are not really particularly dominant at all, just possessive. Apparently wolf biologists like David Mech observed that subordinate wolves will resource guard from the pack leaders, who will generally back off.


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## Ian Forbes (Oct 13, 2006)

If there is a link between drive and aggression, IMO it is not clearly defined.


I've seen many high drive dogs that will display little aggression.
I've seen aggressive dogs that show little in the way of drive (many have bad nerves though).
Some aggressive dogs are dominant, many are not.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Aggression is too broad of a term. Aggressive drives can be fight, fear, or avoidance. Go back to bed!


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## Guest (Feb 12, 2008)

Just read this theoretical break down of "affective aggression" (as opposed to predatory aggression; night-and-day internal brain activity, according to Hoyle "Humans confuse the two because the result is often the same; a smaller, weaker animal winds up dead"):

-Assertive aggression: this category includes dominance aggression and territorial aggression

-Fear driven aggression: this includes maternal aggression to protect young

-pain based aggression

-Inter-male aggression...influenced by testosterone levels

-Stress induced aggression: This includes re-directed aggression

-Mixed aggresion: i.e. fear combined with dominance

-Pathalogical aggression

This is based on ethological observations and also a study of how the actual brain activity differs.

From Temple Grandin's Animals in Translation


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

Steven, the list forgot to include FETZ SPAWN based aggression. 
(couldn't resist)

Good list, thanks for posting!


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Is the list Steven posted saying that territorial aggression isn't or can't be fear based? Just curious.

DFrost


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Y'all would be so lucky that I got out my "textbook" on aggression.  I'll report back later.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Anne Vaini
> Fear aggression - survival drive
> 
> ...


My girls sound a lot like yours - I can do anything with their food and fish food out of their mouths. But they can be antagonized - usually by each other. If they had no drive for food, they would have no reason to guard it.... unless perhaps they had high survival drive. 

If you've ever seen a feral or long-time stray dog come into a shelter, they exhibit resource guarding, food hoarding and food aggression - not necessarily out of food drive, but out of the drive to survive. 

So certain forms of aggression can be caused for different reasons.

If I keep rambling I will confuse myself, so I'll stop here and read some text on the topic.


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## Will Kline (Jan 10, 2008)

Steven Lepic said:


> -Assertive aggression: this category includes dominance aggression and territorial aggression
> 
> -Fear driven aggression: this includes maternal aggression to protect young
> 
> ...


David, if you look at the two lists that I included in the quote you could extrapolate that territorial agression could be fear based if it were indeed being displayed by a mother to protect her young in say a den or raising area. So while the primary definitions listed are accurrate, I would conclude that there is still the possibility of a slight crossover in particular instances.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Here we go: it's called "drive theory" or "drive and emotional command system" first explained by Pankepp in his 1982 and 1998 publications.

Pankepp sorts it out into 4 drives. prey (seeking), pack (panic), fear (defense), and rage (fight). He puts it onto a compulsion sectrum and the relationship between these and various behavior problems.

So I'm NOT crazy. :lol: Just reinventing the wheel in less scientific ways. :grin:


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## Will Kline (Jan 10, 2008)

Anne Vaini said:


> Here we go: it's called "drive theory" or "drive and emotional command system" first explained by Pankepp in his 1982 and 1998 publications.
> 
> Pankepp sorts it out into 4 drives. prey (seeking), pack (panic), fear (defense), and rage (fight). He puts it onto a compulsion sectrum and the relationship between these and various behavior problems.


 
Anne, I haven't read the book but I do not like the term "pack (panic)" associated with one another. The pack displays many activities that are not at all associated with panic or confusion. I am sure he may articulate this better in his book but from your excerpt, I just dont buy it. I have no problem with the others and their associations just the aforementioned one. Maybe you could describe it a bit more for me/us to get a better understanding of what he is trying to convey.


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## Guest (Feb 12, 2008)

David Frost said:


> Is the list Steven posted saying that territorial aggression isn't or can't be fear based? Just curious.
> 
> DFrost


I would hazard a guess that they could be mixed as you suggest here.

My dog is anxious around strange dogs. Frankly, I'd probably have to pigeon-hole it on the fear category more than anything.

Yes, he barks heartily at people getting near the house, but he takes it to another spaztic level when dogs get near the house. That's probably where one category meets the other.


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## Guest (Feb 12, 2008)

And she does cite heavily from Jaak Panskepp...for whoever mentioned him. Anne I think.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

And how about POST BORING AGGRESSION!


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

Will Kline said:


> Anne, Maybe you could describe it a bit more for me/us to get a better understanding of what he is trying to convey.


I too, am now curious about the Pack (panic) portion, as websters describes panic as: extreme, sudden and unreasonable fright spreading quickly through groups of persons or animals.

The unreasonable fright in animal part, to me, just doesn't apply, as there would surely be a true threat if the pack went into aggression...but the thought he may be trying to convey makes sense "categorically" speaking...


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I disagree as you can have nerve bag growly dogs (like my parent's Vizsla) that are deeply possessive of food, toys, their crate or place on the floor (or bed, God forbid!), but that are not really particularly dominant at all, just possessive. Apparently wolf biologists like David Mech observed that subordinate wolves will resource guard from the pack leaders, who will generally back off.


So are you disagreeing with what Selena said (i.e. that those things are not dominance aggression at all), or are you just saying that while those things can be dominance aggression, those can also be "symptoms" of a different behavior that isnt to do with dominance?


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## Bryan Colletti (Feb 16, 2007)

To me aggression has many many roads that lead to it. How a dog arrives at aggression has alot to do with how stable he or she is. Dogs dont need drive to go into aggression. Well drive in the typical way that most sport or police trainers see. Unstable and weak dogs exhibit aggression in many ways out of fear or a dysfunctional pack arrangement. 

Now drive can certainly bring about aggression, many really hard biting and mean fighting dogs channel aggression through stress. As a decoy and trainer when you find a dog like this, those that stay in the fight under tremendous mental pressure and become more aggressive with the stress, no outing, many rebites etc... You dont soon forget dogs like this. 

To me Aggression is a very necessary tool for any animal, because life is not fair and all things being equal, we all must survive. Drives only bring the engine, how the dog reacts in drive is unique to him and not particularly related to drive. I have a dog here now that will bite you and bite hard, but has zero aggression. Tons of drive!!! No aggression. I haven't told him what a wimp he is yet))

Bryan


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## Chip Blasiole (Jun 7, 2006)

One of the best articles I've seen on elements of aggression as they apply to bitework is Armin Winkler's article which can be read at 
http://www.schutzhundvillage.com/terms2.html
Basically, the article mentions several types of aggression which dogs can possess to varying degrees. Prey and defense are the traits most people are familiar with. IMO, the best dogs not only have strong prey and forward defense, but also a degree of dominance, social aggression and rage/anger. However, I think dogs with the whole package are very rare, as these traits have largely been bred out. I also believe that the gene pool most likely to include degrees of dominance, social aggression and rage/anger come from KNPV lines of Mals and Mal crosses/Dutch Shepherds. IMO, the best of these dogs will bite you because you are a stranger, because they want to dominate you, and the frustration and rage add to the intensity. These are not overly defensive or sharp dogs.


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

"IMO, the best of these dogs will bite you because you are a stranger, because they want to dominate you, and the frustration and rage add to the intensity. These are not overly defensive or sharp dogs"

Chip, 
A dog that will bite you just because you're a stranger is overly defensive and sharp. LOL


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Regarding the relationship between panic-related aggression and pack drive:

"Although familiarity and affection are natural an powerful inhibitors of aggression, insofar as they promote social safety and scurity (trust), they also appear to represent the necessary conditions for panic-evoked aggression. The sufficient condition for panic-evoked aggression is a violation of trust and a loss of social safety. Dominance-related aggression frequently is exhibited in ways that are consistent with a panic-invoked scenario in which the bond between the owner and dog is threatened by a loss of safety and trust."

Stephen R Lindsay - Handbook of Applied Dog Behavior and Training, Volume 3, page 286.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

> Dogs dont need drive to go into aggression.


I really have to disagree. Drive = desire, motivating force. If a dog has no drive for anything, it will die. There is no live animal with zero drive. Survival is a strong drive, desire, motivation. Some of the most extreme training mothods for the most extremely messed up dogs use the desire to survive. These methods involve witholding food, water even air until the dog ends dangerous behaviors.

A starving dog doesn't defer to another dog over food. Even the most submissive dog in nature can be brought into aggression in food drive - whether it be a weak panic-evoked aggression, or a strong seeking aggression. 

Survival is a strong desire. We don't see this scenario typically, and we certainly don't use it in training. There are recorded cases of starving, clinically malnourished dogs killing people. While it is only one factor - and other factors can be speculated upon, we know that food drive causes aggression when PROVOKED. What provokes a dog varies extremely depending on all the factors that previous posters have mentioned.


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## Guest (Feb 13, 2008)

Anne,

One thing to which Grandin puts some helpful delineation is what kind of "drive" one talks about. One broad category would be what dog people refer to as drive which would be a short-hand description of external behavior only. That which we can simply observe.

People have stated in this thread that "aggression" is too broad of a term.

It's starting to seem like "drive" is even too broad a term at times.

From the book:

_The next thing to know is that there is a difference between the fixed action pattern itself and the emotions that drive the fixed action pattern. The emotion of chasing down prey and the behavior of killing prey are contolled by different circuits in the brain._

_Seeing the word "emotions" in this context might be surprising. Animal experts used to talk about instincts, which are the fixed action patterns, and drives which we defined as built in urges that made animals and humans seek the core neccesities of life like food and sex. Instincts and drives described animal and human behavior well from the outside, but the concept of drive didn't hold up well once researchers started mapping the brain. It was too broad and abstract, and when researchers looked for a single, unified brain circuits underlying specific drives, they didn't find them._

_Instead of finding one unified circuit for hunger drive, they found two different circuits; one for the physical aspect of hunger, the other emotional. The physical aspects of hunger, known as bodily need states, are things like low blood sugar, which signal that an animal needs something to eat. But a bodily need state isn't enough, which should be obvious to anyone who's known someone with anorexia. People and animals need the emotion of SEEKING to motivate them to go out and hunt or gather the food for their bodily needs._

...


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## Chip Blasiole (Jun 7, 2006)

Al,
I disagree with your statement that a dog that will bite you just because you are a stranger is overly defensive and sharp. Most dogs who bite a stranger for no apparent reason are probably overly defensive and sharp. But there is a small subset of dogs that we don't see much who are socially aggressive with a degree of dominance and rage/anger, and their desire to bite a stranger has nothing to do with fear, being overly self defensive or having low thresholds for aggression. I know of a Mal/DS from KNPV lines that was recently brought to the states from Holland. The new handler had to deprive the dog of food for about a week before the dog would submit enough to let the handler begin to interact with him without being bit. This was an issue of dominance and social aggression. I am not talking about dogs that posture with a lot of defensive barking and that really just want their concern (stranger) to go away. 
I would be interested in hearing comments from Selena and Dick about this type of aggression, as I believe their best stud dogs are characteristic of the type of dog I'm referring to. In addition to these dogs having different elements of aggression, which IMO, make for the strongest dogs in bitework, they also tend to be "flyers" and "blockers" which was recently mentioned in another thread which showed a KNPV Mal hammering the decoy. I believe all these traits I'm referring to are genetic, and the odds of finding them all are most likely going to be in Mals and Mal/DS from KNPV lines.


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

"Al,
I disagree with your statement that a dog that will bite you just because you are a stranger is overly defensive and sharp. Most dogs who bite a stranger for no apparent reason are probably overly defensive and sharp."

Chip, so you agree?


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