# Breeding siblings?



## Wendy Schmitt

I am not one to post but have a question for a few of you breeders out there. I am thinking about doing a brother sister breeding. They are both exceptional dogs, the whole litter was a stand out and they themselves are not too closely bred. Both dogs and their parents show excellent health. 
I know there has been much discussion about line breeding but what about full siblings?? Struggling to find a male I like for this bitch and I keep looking at her brother. 

Thanks,

Wendy


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## Jeff Oehlsen

For me, I have no problem when it is part of a long term plan for breeding to find out what pops up. If it is just you are not able to find a stud, then that is different for me. 

I would go over on paper what your breeding goals are, and check yourself a little bit to see what the positives and the negatives are. Then, if curiousity just overwhelms you, then go ahead.

The negative consequences are going to be peoples perception. People who have NEVER bred a litter have really strong opinions about shit they know nothing about.

Because of this, it might be hard to get rid of the pups.

On the plus side, if you are right about the quality of the dogs you are breeding, you could have a real nice litter.

I have been prone to this kind of thing as well.


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## Joby Becker

pedigree?

you gonna cull (kill) most, or keep most, or farm out free...to evaluate for your program? Like Jeff said..will be hard to sell...

experimental breedings have their place..never know till you try...
every sibling gets a little different mix of the genes..


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## Wendy Schmitt

Thank you for your responses. I have NO problem with culling puppies so that isnt an issue. This is a litter I want to keep strong in my program. As for homes, the few people I have mentioned this too most say they want a puppy if I do it, only those against brother-sister breeding are against it. 
I myself have never really in bred because I worry about the health factors. Still I have been in breeding for most of my life starting with wolrld champion horses where in breeding really isnt done.
Finding homes for the puppies will be the least of my problems I think it's not about that. Although yes I am sure I will be crucified for it from some.

I was just curious from those that might have done it about any health issues or oddities in the pups.

It really isnt any different than breeding a father back to his daughter and that is done a bit more.

wendy


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## Guest

Joby Becker said:


> pedigree?
> 
> you gonna cull (kill) most, or keep most, or farm out free...to evaluate for your program? Like Jeff said..will be hard to sell...
> 
> experimental breedings have their place..never know till you try...
> every sibling gets a little different mix of the genes..


depending on price and buyers intent, you may not have a hard time selling at all, just establish the goals first


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## Joby Becker

Wendy Schmitt said:


> Thank you for your responses. I have NO problem with culling puppies so that isnt an issue. This is a litter I want to keep strong in my program. As for homes, the few people I have mentioned this too most say they want a puppy if I do it, only those against brother-sister breeding are against it.
> I myself have never really in bred because I worry about the health factors. Still I have been in breeding for most of my life starting with wolrld champion horses where in breeding really isnt done.
> Finding homes for the puppies will be the least of my problems I think it's not about that. Although yes I am sure I will be crucified for it from some.
> 
> I was just curious from those that might have done it about any health issues or oddities in the pups.
> 
> It really isnt any different than breeding a father back to his daughter and that is done a bit more.
> 
> wendy


i sat fukk it...keep the breed a secret..as not to piss anybody off...and do it...if you are confident the lines are clear of defects...if not you will find out very soon...and cull hard...hopefully


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Sure moron, she just posted it on WDF where like 6 thousand people read this shit every day, but go ahead and keep it a secret.

God you and an idiot. Please do not breed.


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## Wendy Schmitt

LOL, Jeff I was thinking the same thing. The secret is out. 

wendy


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## Joby Becker

blah blah blah

I meant keep "BREED" a public internet secret, to avoid the "breed" wardens ridicule..

if it is of NO concern then post breed and pedigree info..and advertise publicly...sell em all..

PEDIGREE???


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## Christopher Jones

Honestly if I thought it was going to produce high quality animals with no obvious health faults then I would do it. I would do father-daughter also if I looked at it as producing what I wanted. 
I have seen it done before and the pups were not hard to sell. Last one I know of was Zico Berlex Hoeve was bred to his litter sister Zita here.


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## Don Turnipseed

Doesn't matter what happened to anyone elses dogs when breeding sibs. The only way you wil know what will happen breeding yours ids to breed them and find out. Someone with a Dr.'s degree in genetics can't even tell you what will happen. All that bs about deformities comes from folks that never inbred, never saw it but heards someone else d=say something about pups having two heads. I have had one deformed pup in years of breeding and that was because the bitch was 11. It causes deformities in humans also when way past their prime. I do agree with others in as much as doin't do it unless you are in it for the long hall and are situated where you can keep multiple dogs because starting this way you will need them. Good luck.


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## Kadi Thingvall

You'll never know what you'll get until you give it a try. I know a lot of people that frown on this, but I know just as many that don't, I doubt you'll have problems placing pups. In some breeds, like pitbulls, this type of breeding is quite common. 

It's also not uncommon in Malinois, although with the pedigree issues some people may not realize it. A lot of people in the US lately are into the CdH dogs, if you study their pedigrees there is a lot of father/daughter, half sibling to half sibling, sibling to sibling, etc breeding going on.


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## Brian Anderson

Its really nobodies business what you do with your program. It will either magnify the good and or bring it forward at the least .... or blow up the faults .... roll the dice and see. But like Jeff said be sure its part of a long term effort and not just a one shot deal ...thats my .02 worth


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## Don Turnipseed

I can't tell you how many people have been shopping dogs before they come here and the first thing they say is "I don't want any of those sickly inbred dogs these other breeders have". I usually keep quiet until after they have visited all the dogs before I tell them how they are bred. Then I tell them to look around the yard and ask them if they see any sickly ones. After they concede that the look healthier than the dogs the have already looked at by far, I drop the bomb on them. I tell them there isn't a dog in the yard that has ever seen a vet. You have to give them a second to absorb that one because, along with tight breeding, it goes against everything they have ever been told by hobby breeders. That is when we sit down and dicuss the real world of raising sound stock. They may have already shopped several kennel, but I get their deposit every time. A good number of them have either forfieted their deposit at other kennels or have gotten them back but I still get their check. I wouldn't go into details such as pointing out that it is a sib to sib cross, just say they are tight and leave it at that. Make sure what they get is healthy above all else or you will just substantiate their prior beliefs and you will have another person chanting how bad tight breeding is. No one wants to see that. Being this is your first shot at this, I will tell you how to pick the healthy pups when they hit the ground. LEAVE THEM ALONE for a couple of minutes. If they don't start crawling and crying as a healthy pup would do...cull it. Next, leave them alone untill their eyes are open at least and mother nature will take care of any you missed. This is a necessary part of inbreeding because you haven't got a crystal ball. The very worst thing you can do that will affect all breeders that line breed is sell unhealthy stock.


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## Wendy Schmitt

Don,

I have learned my lesson about helping out sickly pups. My first litters I saved pups that should have died and they have never been as healthy the others rest of their lives. That is why I now cull, I learned the hard way. If they even look sickly I just pull them from the litter I don't want to put a puppy with someone and they have a vet bill for the rest of their lives.

Maybe I will do a dual sire then this wont be such a stressful situation.

Wendy


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## Don Turnipseed

Wendy Schmitt said:


> Don,
> 
> I have learned my lesson about helping out sickly pups. My first litters I saved pups that should have died and they have never been as healthy the others rest of their lives. That is why I now cull, I learned the hard way. If they even look sickly I just pull them from the litter I don't want to put a puppy with someone and they have a vet bill for the rest of their lives.
> 
> Maybe I will do a dual sire then this wont be such a stressful situation.
> 
> Wendy


I have no idea what would be stressful about what you are doing. If you are thinking doing a dual sire is going to be the answer, you are sadly mistaken. I wasn't trying to complicate things for you but attempting to make them easier. It is far easier to cull the weak at birth than at 5 to 8 weeks old. 

Just to satisfy my own curiosity, how would having dual sires change anything?


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## Mike Valente

Wendy Schmitt said:


> I am not one to post but have a question for a few of you breeders out there. I am thinking about doing a brother sister breeding. They are both exceptional dogs, the whole litter was a stand out and they themselves are not too closely bred. Both dogs and their parents show excellent health.
> I know there has been much discussion about line breeding but what about full siblings?? Struggling to find a male I like for this bitch and I keep looking at her brother.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Wendy


I'm in your same boat as we speak, planning a sibling breeding after over almost 3 years of looking at stud dogs. My philosophy on breeding is constantly evolving as I learn, but one thing I'm trying to impliment in a breeding program, is regardless of the # of breedings you do for instance even if your breeding multiple litters a year, treat every one as if it's your last breeding and you have to make the best one possible to produce the best possible dogs.
The average person that want's to know the bloodlines IMO usually has no f#cking clue what he's looking at and just want's to seem knowledgable. In past litters I've sold dogs with/without papers for differant prices this technique usually weeds out potential breeders they are usually focussed on papers and most average people have little concern about the pedigree and will opt for the cheaper price without papers.
I feel you feel in your gut this is the best possible breeding, I have a 25% rule about genetics if you wan't the best only breed the best and focus on the top 25% of anything you produce, stick with this formula and your line should only get stronger regardless of how concentrated the blood is. negative traits can only be weeded out through breeding, litters are not uniform by any means unless the blood is already concentrated. just because one pup may carry a flaw the next pup may not have any of it genetically, two parents may carry a flaw and pass onto 75% of the litter yet potentially 25% may be pure without the flaw, so it's possible to produced pups genetically superior to both parents. This is how you create a superior line of dogs if that is your long term goal.


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## Joby Becker

fukk it do dual sires..

dna test pups, get it all done it one breeding...instead of two...


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## Harry Keely

Letting more than one stud dip in doesn't guarantee double lines in one breeding, of course have not heard of none not be all there but know someone that bred two different studs to one bitch and had a bunch of pups, I think around 11 or 12 and ended up with only one female from one stud and the rest all from the other stud.


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## Guest

I did this often with sled dogs years ago and never had any issues with deformities at all. I did have one litter that the majority of the pups were considerably smaller than the parents at full maturity, but perfectly healthy. 

Just like any breeding, selection of animals and the goals have to be in order and where you see the program/pups going...


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## Alison Grubb

I'm no breeder, but I am a fan of line and inbreeding. I know some nice dogs that are heavily line and inbred. It's worked out well for the APBT in my opinion.

The worst thing that can happen is you end up culling a bunch of puppies BUT finding out about some weaknesses in the lines you are using. As they say, knowledge is power. You may find things that will influence how you breed on these dogs later.

Screw it, do it and see what happens.


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## Kristina Senter

I did a brother/sister breeding not long ago and got no deformities. I have seen problems come out of closely inbred lines that did not cull at all... otherwise, I have not seen that the potential for problems is much different than that of any other breeding.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Ditch the two sires thing. That is goofy. Maybe if you had an accident, and went and bred her to the stud you wanted to afterwards to try and get some pups by him, but other than that, I don't like that.

No faith in the DNA system. : ) Look how many people sent in to see what their dog was and got screwed there.


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## andreas broqvist

Jeff ther is à big diferens in thos fake as what breed is you dog made of than à match test puppys parents. 
3 dogs that shuld match is no biggy  
I have thaugt of this to, to get more out of à realy Nice bitch.


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## Doug Matson

I have not personally done any full brother/sister breedings, but have done half-brother/sister breeding without an issue. I would not really expect physical deformities. What I would more expect are superficial things that can be spotted at birth like white on chest or toes or open umbilicals that are fatal anyway. What I would be more concerned with are other things that you won't notice for months or years. The old timers claim that in-breeding reduces size and I have seen that in many in-bred litters. I also think that you could find some temperament stability issues in some, but not all of the puppies. Any temperament issues would not likely surface until they are older. I would guess that most health issues will not surface until the dogs are adults or even middle aged, but that is no different that in an outcross breeding. In the end, you won't know until you do it and hindsight will be 20/20.

As for the dual sire thing, as others have said the reality is that most or all of the puppies will likely be from one sire anyway. I currently have a dual sire litter on the way, but I only did it because I flew to Europe and the primary sire has a prostate issue that would only allow 1 breeding. I did not want to fly 6,000 miles and put all of my hopes on 1 breeding even though I did progesterone testing.

Good Luck with whatever you do.


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## Kadi Thingvall

I agree with Doug, I'd be less concerned about things you see at birth, and more concerned about things that come up down the line. Especially if the breed is known for certain later onset health issues. It's a good way to see if your lines carry those genes, but how do you place the pups, or do you have the time and space to keep them all?

As for the dual sired thing, I did it a few years ago with one of my females. Got as close to a 50/50 split as you can get with an odd number of pups :-D 3/4 It was spendy by the time I paid for the DNA, the extra fees for registration, etc but I'd do it again, I think it's a great way to get "2 for the price of 1" in terms of litters from the female, and wear/tear on her and time off from training/trialing. Wasn't hard to figure out which pups belonged to which sire. I have the results of the DNA on my website at http://www.dantero.com/qr.php for people who are interested.

I don't think I'd go dual sired in this case though, I thought the idea behind the brother/sister was that there wasn't a second male out there that meets your requirements for this female, so why "breed down"?


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## Don Turnipseed

Sounds like maybe there is another worthy sire out there maybe....


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## Brian Anderson

Wendy Schmitt said:


> Don,
> 
> I have learned my lesson about helping out sickly pups. My first litters I saved pups that should have died and they have never been as healthy the others rest of their lives. That is why I now cull, I learned the hard way. If they even look sickly I just pull them from the litter I don't want to put a puppy with someone and they have a vet bill for the rest of their lives.
> 
> Maybe I will do a dual sire then this wont be such a stressful situation.
> 
> Wendy


Wendy we have a solution here for sickly dogs. I cant say it in "public" due to the politically correct state of the world. But you know :wink:


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## Don Turnipseed

Kadi said


> I agree with Doug, I'd be less concerned about things you see at birth, and more concerned about things that come up down the line. Especially if the breed is known for certain later onset health issues. It's a good way to see if your lines carry those genes, but how do you place the pups, or do you have the time and space to keep them all?


This is why I was attempting to tell Wendy that, if left alone, mother nature will choose the right ones more accurately than we can....and without feeling.

Dougs comments about what the old timers say about the dpogs getting smaller. They do when they are depressed and should be culled. The ones benefitting from the process get bigger and stronger. Nothing seems to affect the whiole litter. This old timers noticed that the two 50 lb dogs I started with went to 70 lbs, then to 80, then to 90 and eventually hit 105 and better and are now, as they were tightened up, coming down in sizeJack is 11 generations and 80 lbs. Some are in the seventies, some in the high 60's. As long as the pups have vigor and remain fertile I don't worry about size so much. many squirrly pups mom will refuse to feed because she knows what we don't. To make a long story short....help no pup survive and you will have done your job. It will work out.


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## Doug Matson

Well, that is not what I meant at all. I was not speaking of sickly or unhealthy puppies. At least in Dobermans, when I see a very closely bred litter, the puppies will typically be slightly smaller and with less bone than the parents. Likewise, over time the more heavily line bred dogs I see frequently have less bone with each succeeding generation.


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## Wendy Schmitt

Again thank you everyone for the responses it has been very infomative. I have decided against it and breeding her to a male that will hopefully not only be a good fit, but I will keep a bitch out the litter and breed her back to her uncle...the male in question. The male I choose is actually a 3/4 cousin so not far off. 
Yes I am struggling to find good quality males though and for the last few breeding have flown to or had males flown in from Germany, Denmark, North Carolina, Texas, North carolina again and now Minnasota...god knows I'm trying...oh and I live in California.
Unfortunatly I have only one breeding on this female because of co-ownership and absolutely love her, they are going to spay her after this breeding to much of a hassel they say, so this is it. 

Thank you for the replies,

Wendy


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## Kadi Thingvall

Wendy Schmitt said:


> Unfortunatly I have only one breeding on this female because of co-ownership and absolutely love her, they are going to spay her after this breeding to much of a hassel they say, so this is it.


Considering this, it might be worth thinking about a dual sired litter. You may only get pups from one sire, but you might get pups from both, and get 2 "litters" out of the one breeding you get with her.


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## Kristina Senter

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Considering this, it might be worth thinking about a dual sired litter. You may only get pups from one sire, but you might get pups from both, and get 2 "litters" out of the one breeding you get with her.


Ditto. I don't recall you mentioning this was your one and only shot.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

What breed is this anyway ?


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## Ben Colbert

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Considering this, it might be worth thinking about a dual sired litter. You may only get pups from one sire, but you might get pups from both, and get 2 "litters" out of the one breeding you get with her.


Perhaps a noob question but how do you tell which pup is from which father? I would think that would be important.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

By weight. You have to use different size sires or you cannot tell.


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## Kadi Thingvall

Ben Colbert said:


> Perhaps a noob question but how do you tell which pup is from which father? I would think that would be important.


You have to do DNA testing on both sires, the dam, and all the pups. It's pretty easy after that to figure out who is who. When you do a DNA test with AKC the report shows 13 DNA sequences, each shown as 2 letters. For example AB DA CD EG HI DH EC ... 

Say Sire1 has AB in the first pair, Sire 2 has CD and the dam has EG 

Your pups are

Sire 1 x Dam
AE, BE, AG, BG

Sire 2 x Dam
CE, DE, CG, DG

It's not always that straight foward, you might have a pair where Sire 1 and Sire 2 are both AB, so that pair in a pup won't tell you anything about who the sire was. But with 13 pairs to choose from chances are very good you'll have a few pairs that tell you for sure who the sire is, unless the sires are very closely related themselves. Then you migth have to get a more detailed DNA report.

I put the results of the DNA test I did on my dual sired litter online www.dantero.com/qr.php with a chart showing each of the parents and the pups and how the determination was made about each pup.


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## Kristina Senter

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> By weight. You have to use different size sires or you cannot tell.


Oh crap! And here I thought I knew exactly which dog my pup came out of! Wish someone had told me that years ago 

Ben... you do a cheek swab of each sire, and each pup and send them for DNA testing. Same as they do paternity testing for people.


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## Thomas Barriano

Kristina Senter said:


> Oh crap! And here I thought I knew exactly which dog my pup came out of! Wish someone had told me that years ago
> 
> Ben... you do a cheek swab of each sire, and each pup and send them for DNA testing. Same as they do paternity testing for people.



Do they reveal who's the Daddy on the Maury Povich show?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I have been thinking about starting my own reality tv program. There is enough stupid shit in the dog world to rival any of those idiot programs, and I would donate some of the money to improve our situation regarding different problems.

Can you imagine how many people would watch this ? Fluffy furry babies, puppies, old women cheating in elections, boards not following the rules stating that since they do not have enough for a quorum that they are defunct, Dogs doing awesome hits, people defending their nervebag dogs, Breeding to multiple fathers like some ghetto crack whore. 

THAT SHOW WOULD BE AWESOME ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !


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## Don Turnipseed

Then after you send the DNA swabs in, you look at that pen full of pups and wonder which swab went to which pup....right??? :grin:


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## Thomas Barriano

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I have been thinking about starting my own reality tv program. There is enough stupid shit in the dog world to rival any of those idiot programs, and I would donate some of the money to improve our situation regarding different problems.
> 
> Can you imagine how many people would watch this ? Fluffy furry babies, puppies, old women cheating in elections, boards not following the rules stating that since they do not have enough for a quorum that they are defunct, Dogs doing awesome hits, people defending their nervebag dogs, Breeding to multiple fathers like some ghetto crack whore.
> 
> THAT SHOW WOULD BE AWESOME ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !


I'd watch it ...............if Maury PUPvich was the host :-0


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## Christopher Jones

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I have been thinking about starting my own reality tv program. There is enough stupid shit in the dog world to rival any of those idiot programs, and I would donate some of the money to improve our situation regarding different problems.
> 
> Can you imagine how many people would watch this ? Fluffy furry babies, puppies, old women cheating in elections, boards not following the rules stating that since they do not have enough for a quorum that they are defunct, Dogs doing awesome hits, people defending their nervebag dogs, Breeding to multiple fathers like some ghetto crack whore.
> 
> THAT SHOW WOULD BE AWESOME ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeifMjqpsg0


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## Steve Burger

Personally, I think you made the right decision not to go in that direction, Wendy. Not necessarily because of the outcome of the litter, but for 2 other reasons. 1> the long term effects of dealing with such a limited gene pool in the Dobermann breed and where do you go from there. And second because of many of the people you have to deal with in the Dobermann game. Face it there is a slightly higher percentage of ding dongs in our breed, and it is a battle that is probably not worth fighting. Good luck Wendy, I hope you find the right situation. I understand your dilemma completely.


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## Thomas Barriano

"Face it there is a slightly higher percentage of ding dongs in our breed,"

"Slightly" ?
Boy are you optimistic


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## Dominic D'Ambrosio

Thomas Barriano said:


> "Face it there is a slightly higher percentage of ding dongs in our breed,"
> 
> "Slightly" ?
> Boy are you optimistic


Claiming the breed towel boy? I'm thinking you're one of the ding dongs


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## Dominic D'Ambrosio

Besides Dobes can be broken down as easy as a double barreled shotgun. Just let the breed go.


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## Thomas Barriano

Dominic D'Ambrosio said:


> Besides Dobes can be broken down as easy as a double barreled shotgun. Just let the breed go.


Chris

Are you stalking me? You've replied to every post I've made recently. Whats a matter is Percy/David F busy?


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## Dominic D'Ambrosio

Thomas Barriano said:


> Chris
> 
> Are you stalking me? You've replied to every post I've made recently. Whats a matter is Percy/David F busy?


Just returning the favor. 
So tell us how did you inherit such a shitty breed to claim it in the way do?

I have a feeling you've stalked many before I came along


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## Benjamin Allanson

Christopher Jones said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeifMjqpsg0


love that movie


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## Thomas Barriano

Dominic D'Ambrosio said:


> Just returning the favor.
> So tell us how did you inherit such a shitty breed to claim it in the way do?
> 
> I have a feeling you've stalked many before I came along


Chris,

I didn't inherit I adopted the Dobermann, because I like a loyal dog that requires some thought to train. Any fool can use cookie cutter training methods to train a GSD for Schutzhund or a Malinois for Ring or a Pit Bull/Mastiff/Band dogge for PP
What do you mean "before I came along"?
You've been on the WDF for years


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## Dominic D'Ambrosio

Thomas Barriano said:


> Chris,
> 
> I didn't inherit I adopted the Dobermann, because I like a loyal dog that requires some thought to train. Any fool can use cookie cutter training methods to train a GSD for Schutzhund or a Malinois for Ring or a Pit Bull/Mastiff/Band dogge for PP
> What do you mean "before I came along"?
> You've been on the WDF for years


WOW you really are like a itchy rash I just can't shake.
These comments speak volumes of what you think about GSD and malinois owners. Now I'm throwing dirt on top of your head


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## Thomas Barriano

Dominic D'Ambrosio said:


> WOW you really are like a itchy rash I just can't shake.
> These comments speak volumes of what you think about GSD and malinois owners. Now I'm throwing dirt on top of your head


Silly Chrissy Po
GSD's are bred for Schutzhund and Malinois are bred for Ring.
That's a simple fact. If anyone thinks it's harder to train a GSD for Schutzhund then a Doberman or Rottweiler or any other breed. They're as clueless as you are


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## Steve Burger

Thomas Barriano said:


> "Face it there is a slightly higher percentage of ding dongs in our breed,"
> 
> "Slightly" ?
> Boy are you optimistic


You could not detect the slightest bit of sarcasm?


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## Thomas Barriano

Steve Burger said:


> You could not detect the slightest bit of sarcasm?


Just barely detectable Steve


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## Kara Fitzpatrick

why isn't this Dominic guy banned yet? seriously?


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## Dominic D'Ambrosio

Thomas Barriano said:


> Chris,
> 
> I didn't inherit I adopted the Dobermann, because I like a loyal dog that requires some thought to train. Any fool can use cookie cutter training methods to train a GSD for Schutzhund or a Malinois for Ring or a Pit Bull/Mastiff/Band dogge for PP
> What do you mean "before I came along"?
> You've been on the WDF for years


Takes a real trainer to handle a dobe. Get a female dobe and you'll have plenty more excuses for not showing video.:wink:


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## Connie Sutherland

Kara Fitzpatrick said:


> why isn't this Dominic guy banned yet? seriously?



That's a good question. We (mods) don't understand why a few people have even argued against closing the fake threads. But it's getting old, isn't it.


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## Thomas Barriano

Dominic D'Ambrosio said:


> Takes a real trainer to handle a dobe. Get a female dobe and you'll have plenty more excuses for not showing video.:wink:


Thanks for the compliment DomDam. I bet you've never handled any Dobermanns?
I've got a male and a female Dobermann, I'll post video of either or both as soon as post a video OR get one of the FIVE THOUSAND WDF members to vouch for you.
That's my old SchH III Dobermann Dubheasa in my avatar
does she look timid to you DomDam?

Thomas Barriano
Dubheasa Germania (11/05/99-08/11/08) SchH III M R Brevet AKC WD III AWD 1 STP 1 CD WAC TT
Ascomannis Jago (06/20/03) SchH III AKC WD III AWD I TT WAC
Belatucadrus (08/14/05) DS BH TT MR Brevet 
Flannchadh von der Bavarianburg (5/21/08) BH STP I


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## Kara Fitzpatrick

you can look at my female dobermann any day you want. 
youtube channel KaraFitz89... I urge you to.

p.s. it is Connie! I don't understand some people that just want to cause trouble and put down almost every user for enjoyment? or whatever they do it for.


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