# Taking direction and instruction and criticism as a trainer



## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

I am posting this in response to Ricks thread ... he got butthurt because he felt like some were out of line in their comments. I didn't see anything that would have blown my skirt up but apparently it did his. We are all here because we enjoy working with dogs ,... specifically working dogs. The realities of the world are that there are going to be those amongst us that just dont know how to get along and work with other people. There are going to be blowhards, keyboard trainers, liars and all the rest. There is this thing I learned a long time ago and its this: Some of your best learning will come from some of the hardest people who have high expectations and demand performance. The guy I started under years ago was a total ass in many many ways .. didnt really know how to talk to people and or get along. BUT he was a damn good dog trainer and could do that very well. He would piss me off so bad sometimes I wanted to shoot him and damn near did a couple of times. But the guy brought out the best in me and that in turn brought out the best in the dog. He was demanding and stringent and I hated it but it taught me some hard lessons. I could waffle on and on about it but I guess what Im trying to say is that sometimes the hardest people wind up being the most influential on us because they force us to bring our best and wont settle for anything half ass... some of the folks here can be pretty rough around the edges sometimes. But not unlike my original mentor they will ultimately bring out the best in you (if they are indeed good trainers) if your serious enough to get in the proverbial ring with them. But you cant just get in the ring with them you gotta be able to STAY in the ring with them and not be as good as them but be better. Getting butt hurt over a post or what someone said isnt gonna get it done AND you will never see your full potential as a trainer and the dog will never have the benefit of your experience gained.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

No different then reading dogs. Some will snap, snarl and make a lot of noise. Some will tuck tail and run. Some will lick your hand and some will bite.
A couple of the better trainers here (IMHO) will question you till you want to choke them but it's all about making you think about what and how you do things. 
As Martha would say, "Thinking is a good thing"!
We can learn from all of them. :wink:


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Bob Scott said:


> No different then reading dogs. Some will snap, snarl and make a lot of noise. Some will tuck tail and run. Some will lick your hand and some will bite.
> A couple of the better trainers here (IMHO) will question you till you want to choke them but it's all about making you think about what and how you do things.
> As Martha would say, "Thinking is a good thing"!
> We can learn from all of them. :wink:


yes sir ... your a wise man


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## Nick Hrycaj (Mar 30, 2014)

To that I add, why would a user of this forum visit, read, and reply to posts that so disgusted them? Seems like wasted breath, time, and maturity to me.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

To quote the sub line below my posts

"The words of a fool offend only another fool"! 


Another of my fav sayings

"How can I be insulted by someone who's opinion means nothing to me".


Think about it folks! :wink:


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## Nick Hrycaj (Mar 30, 2014)

To that I add, why would a user of this forum visit, read, and reply to posts that so disgusted them? Seems like wasted breath, time, and maturity to me.

Edit...
I just went and read what was referenced with Mr. Smith seeming frustrated with people and I myself became frustrated. It validated my above point that if something bothers you here, ignore it and move on.

NOTE TO OLD HANDS/ EXPERIENCED TRAINERS/ LONG TIME MEMBERS alike, you are being seen as mentors whether or not you know it. I, like a majority of new members here I am sure, come for solid dog training advice based in experience and science, etc, not in whose ego or grandeur might create the best dog if only ____ (insert some excuse). There are a lot of really good ways to get to the same end goal and our trouble shoot in the dog world. Thing is, we can't all have all the answers so we have to be students. None of us would have joined this site to begin with if not for our innate desire to learn and get better


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Nick Hrycaj said:


> To that I add, why would a user of this forum visit, read, and reply to posts that so disgusted them? Seems like wasted breath, time, and maturity to me.
> 
> Edit...
> I just went and read what was referenced with Mr. Smith seeming frustrated with people and I myself became frustrated. It validated my above point that if something bothers you here, ignore it and move on.
> ...


yes sir... in so far as I can tell after quite a while of doing it ... its a lifelong learning experience. Im ALWAYS looking for new ways, new tools ,new science, new ways of thinking and on and on ... I have a stack of equipment I have developed over the years for training. Some of it seemed good but flooped and some worked very well much of it was good in theory but in reality just didnt work. Sometimes just a tidbit of info or maybe a different perspective can get us over the hump or out of a rut.... I catch myself getting in the rut often so Im always looking for new things to break it up and keep me motivated. We can learn something from just about anyone ... even if its what NOT to do which can be more important than what to do ...


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

I have pretty much had to teach myself dog training so this forum and others is gold dust to me.

I have no Ego, it's really handy


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Bob Scott said:


> To quote the sub line below my posts
> 
> "The words of a fool offend only another fool"!
> 
> ...


And one of my dear old dad's sayings... 

"Better to be silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Ha! that's a good one!


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

If the trainer is experienced and is trusted, why would handlers want to criticize her/him?

Admittedly we did have the odd one or two handlers who thought they could profit, but on being told their dogs needed to be worked differently, went back to the first trainer and then returned only to be told by our trainer that either they accepted his advice or left it!

I don't think trainers or helpers of a certain high calibre worry about such things. They are busy enough working the handlers' dogs from those who accept them


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Matt Vandart said:


> I have pretty much had to teach myself dog training so this forum and others is gold dust to me.
> 
> I have no Ego, it's really handy


I hear ya!!


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Brian's post is pretty straight on with me. My first mantrailing trainer was a bit of an A-hole but didn't cut you the slack and lower the bar. He had expectations and either you rose to the challenge or you decided this wasn't for you and you went someplace else. Very good basic trainer but tended to stick with the tried-and-true. As I progressed, I outgrew him and found a new mentor that pushed me more intellectually than anyone else I've known since. There are some trainers I absolutely dislike and would never go back to them or recommend them BUT what they did teach me was that I didn't want to be like them. Even a bad lesson can be good if you learn something from it.

A lot of folks have told me that if you're in dogs to get a thick skin. If you can't take the heat, get outa the kitchen. The bull*hit stops, when the tailgate drops. You game the play but can you play the game. Those that can DO, those that can't TEACH. If you can't do this with your dog, how can you come off telling someone to do it with theirs? Things not going your way? Awww, Waaaa, get over it.

If you have done this any length of time, you are bringing to the table the sum of your experiences. If your experiences are only under certain cultural conditions or a certain discipline then you may have a hard time getting past that. Also you have to remember the context of the cultural/education/background of the poster. How we all read the question can be different because I'm writing it with one thing in mind but the reader can interpret another way. Which is one reason you see a lot of posts asking for clarification or a vid showing what you are describing. If you see a vid or picture of it, then we all have a reference point to draw from. When issuing a challenge I don't think it's out of line to post the example ("this is what I got, now show me yours")


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Gillian Schuler said:


> If the trainer is experienced and is trusted, why would handlers want to criticize her/him?
> 
> Admittedly we did have the odd one or two handlers who thought they could profit, but on being told their dogs needed to be worked differently, went back to the first trainer and then returned only to be told by our trainer that either they accepted his advice or left it!
> 
> I don't think trainers or helpers of a certain high calibre worry about such things. They are busy enough working the handlers' dogs from those who accept them


Gillian I think you are missing my context ... "trainer" as I am using applies to all of us who are training our dogs. I didnt actually mean a clubs headmaster or TD...


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Sorry, We don't have TD's or headmasters!! 

We have helpers (decoys) or trainers. The others are handlers.

One or two of our female handlers dissolved into tears at the harsh words of some of our trainers.

It's frustrating though for a helper who is working the dog and the handler messes things up.

I always found being criticised or "humiliated" made me be a better handler.

I've been called an idiot but this is just in the heat of the moment when I messed up. It is not personal and within a few seconds, it is forgotten.

Compared to ballet classes where the teacher came round and pinched one's thighs if they were too fat, dog sport is heavenly.

Jsst think of the would be models who come on looking like coat handers and be glad you are carrying out a healthy sport and affording your dog something that the tree huggers' dogs would never experience.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Brian Anderson said:


> Gillian I think you are missing my context ... "trainer" as I am using applies to all of us who are training our dogs. I didnt actually mean a clubs headmaster or TD...


Sarah also seems to think trainers are trainers who train handlers?


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Sorry, We don't have TD's or headmasters!!
> 
> We have helpers (decoys) or trainers. The others are handlers.
> 
> ...


first one to call me an "idiot" on the training field gets their ass lit up quick and in a hurry... there is NEVER a need to personally insult a person especially one you are supposedly trying to help.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Gillian I am from the deep south and we have our own lingo here and it comes with a heavy duty drawllll lol .... I try to be as "correct" as I can when posting but that "lingo" slips in there lol .... I think we probably agree on most things... I just need to do better at communicating.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I guess you do!!

But l think you will agree - the dog is working well, the handler makes a mistake and emotions are high - even with the Germans - hence the call out.

One thing is sure, I will not make this mistake again.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Sarah also seems to think trainers are trainers who train handlers?


We also train each other. Every handler I work with trains me on something. I train but first I'm a handler. What do we tell each other? If someone says they know it all - grab your dog and RUN AWAY. We all can't know everything. I know I don't but I know what I know and try to pass on my lessons learned so hopefully another won't fall on their face as bad as I've had to do a time or two. Almost everyone on here has, has had, has done, etc. I KNOW there are folks who disbelieve me, my methods, my dogs, etc. It goes with the territory.

*But* what I can do is chose to walk away. I can answer or not. On one topic that was getting a bit out of hand (last year?) the mods basically said, if you chose to ask the question or post a statement or chose to mix it up with whomever - then you are on your own and don't look to the mods to bail you out of the trouble you put yourself into.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Sometimes I have the feeling that many handlers on this forum want to dictate how their dog is handled in protection work.

I have gathered much experience in how to handle a dog in protection in training and at trials.

When faced with an experienced helper, I keep my mouth shut and listen and work my dog as he wishes.

In Switzerland and Germany we have helper courses and the level is high in my mind.

There is obviously a difference between trial helpers (although these diferentiate between international and national helpers) and, the helpers who are able to bring your dog to succeed at trials.

I have worked my dogs with Elmar Mannes (Leipheimer Moor) and Ronny van den Berghe and had to pull my socks up.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Sometimes I have the feeling that many handlers on this forum want to dictate how their dog is handled in protection work.
> 
> I have gathered much experience in how to handle a dog in protection in training and at trials.
> 
> ...


let me turn your feeling into reality ... that would be me... I have enunciated it before just recently. The fact is out of 10 "handlers, trainers whatever you care to call them" half of them couldnt read a dog to save their freaking lives. They NEED someone to tell them what to do next.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I know that many handlers are not able to read their own dogs but after many years I can tell when mine is on the track, when he is not so friendly to an oncoming dog or human, i.e. I can read him


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I know that many handlers are not able to read their own dogs but after many years I can tell when mine is on the track, when he is not so friendly to an oncoming dog or human, i.e. I can read him


I have no doubt you can Gillian .. you have seen it too LOL you know what Im talking about!


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Sorry, We don't have TD's or headmasters!!
> 
> We have helpers (decoys) or trainers. The others are handlers.
> 
> ...


I'm a tree hugger


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Matt Vandart said:


> I'm a tree hugger


do you have a preference? Oak, Pine, maple ? lol


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## Meg O'Donovan (Aug 20, 2012)

Matt Vandart said:


> I'm a tree hugger


Me too. That's what we teach young kids here as a survival strategy when lost in the woods. Hug a tree (meaning stay put, don't wander).

I don't see a conflict between respecting one's environment and training dogs. One of the greatest joys for me is moving through the bush with my dog, in all kinds of places, weather and times of day/year. I'm grateful to live here, where there are still old-growth giants standing.

As the joker likes to say, now back to the regular programming...


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

I've seen some mean ass dog trainers and every last one of them was just barely getting by financially because of their lack of people skills. If you have a gold mine of knowledge and you blow it all away by pissing off all your clients....I don't know. Maybe those kind of dog trainers are not so smart after all. 

I have never met Michael Ellis but he seems to have the right balance of people skills, public speaking skills and dog training knowledge. His dogs seem happy his clients seem mostly happy. That's all I could ask from a dog trainer.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Matt Vandart said:


> I'm a tree hugger


I've had that hung on me too. LOL Had to ask what it meant. Then promptly disagreed with it. I'm only half a hugger, Thank-you-very-much.


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## Nick Hrycaj (Mar 30, 2014)

How did we get to nice vs. Mean trainers? What does it matter as long as they can get dogs to complete the desired task. Anyone that says a mere handler is not also a trainer is seeing lazy handling. Handlers should want to improve and increase their skills, ergo train the dog.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Sarah Platts said:


> Brian's post is pretty straight on with me. My first mantrailing trainer was a bit of an A-hole but didn't cut you the slack and lower the bar. He had expectations and either you rose to the challenge or you decided this wasn't for you and you went someplace else. Very good basic trainer but tended to stick with the tried-and-true. As I progressed, I outgrew him and found a new mentor that pushed me more intellectually than anyone else I've known since. There are some trainers I absolutely dislike and would never go back to them or recommend them BUT what they did teach me was that I didn't want to be like them. Even a bad lesson can be good if you learn something from it.
> 
> A lot of folks have told me that if you're in dogs to get a thick skin. If you can't take the heat, get outa the kitchen. The bull*hit stops, when the tailgate drops. You game the play but can you play the game. Those that can DO, those that can't TEACH. If you can't do this with your dog, how can you come off telling someone to do it with theirs? Things not going your way? Awww, Waaaa, get over it.
> 
> If you have done this any length of time, you are bringing to the table the sum of your experiences. If your experiences are only under certain cultural conditions or a certain discipline then you may have a hard time getting past that. Also you have to remember the context of the cultural/education/background of the poster. How we all read the question can be different because I'm writing it with one thing in mind but the reader can interpret another way. Which is one reason you see a lot of posts asking for clarification or a vid showing what you are describing. If you see a vid or picture of it, then we all have a reference point to draw from. When issuing a challenge I don't think it's out of line to post the example ("this is what I got, now show me yours")


Excellent post. 

With regards to the first and second paragraph, my first and still best mentor is a screaming, demanding, coach/teacher (also doer, not just teacher) who never EVER sugar coats anything or cuts any slack...but at the same time he's the best I've ever known, and I have complete trust and faith that he has mine and my dogs best interest at heart. He told me once that when he was in college playing baseball, his coach told him some people learn better with a kind approach and some people have to be hit on the head with the baseball. I too am one of the latter!


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

susan tuck said:


> Excellent post.
> 
> With regards to the first and second paragraph, my first and still best mentor is a screaming, demanding, coach/teacher (also doer, not just teacher) who never EVER sugar coats anything or cuts any slack...but at the same time he's the best I've ever known, and I have complete trust and faith that he has mine and my dogs best interest at heart. He told me once that when he was in college playing baseball, his coach told him some people learn better with a kind approach and some people have to be hit on the head with the baseball. I too am one of the latter!


how could I possibly argue with Marsha :wink: hehe nuttin wrong with being the latter ,,, we gotta have a place to go too lol


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

A bit off topic but in the same vein:

The other thing I hate are trainers (or those in that position) that keep changing the rules on you. Normally, you get this once you have advanced enough to question what they are doing (in other words you are not longer blindly following them). They set you up not to advance you but instead keep you back so they can still maintain control. When you ask to many questions, they will turn on you with a "how dare you, I'm so-and-so......." They hate other people's ideas *until* they think of them in which case it becomes a great idea because its *theirs*. Awww, I'm getting all morose and negative..... Time to take an Oreo break....


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Sarah Platts said:


> A bit off topic but in the same vein:
> 
> The other thing I hate are trainers (or those in that position) that keep changing the rules on you. Normally, you get this once you have advanced enough to question what they are doing (in other words you are not longer blindly following them). They set you up not to advance you but instead keep you back so they can still maintain control. When you ask to many questions, they will turn on you with a "how dare you, I'm so-and-so......." They hate other people's ideas *until* they think of them in which case it becomes a great idea because its *theirs*. Awww, I'm getting all morose and negative..... Time to take an Oreo break....


Sarah I know the type well ,,,, my view is typically the ones that are always changing the rules are the ones hunting and pecking as much as you are for how to best approach it ... (see Daves comment about not sticking with the plan on my "out post")


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Brian Anderson said:


> Sarah I know the type well ,,,, my view is typically the ones that are always changing the rules are the ones hunting and pecking as much as you are for how to best approach it ... (see Daves comment about not sticking with the plan on my "out post")


Nope, they are not trying to figure out how to proceed forward, they are trying to figure out how to keep you back. A whole nuther kettle of fish. 

I've had some crap pulled on me that was just plain WRONG. And EVIL. And I'm not alone. Some folks have stories that worse then mine (how scary is that?) The crabs? They're out there.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Sarah Platts said:


> Nope, they are not trying to figure out how to proceed forward, they are trying to figure out how to keep you back. A whole nuther kettle of fish.
> 
> I've had some crap pulled on me that was just plain WRONG. And EVIL. And I'm not alone. Some folks have stories that worse then mine (how scary is that?) The crabs? They're out there.


rest assured Sarah I know them too... as bad as I hate to say it .. the working dog bunch as a whole has an inordinate percentage of people with various dysfunctions. I have seen some shit through the years that is almost hard to comprehend. With that said ... there are some great people there too...just gotta wade through the others and find them.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

"The crabs? They're out there"

:-k I've heard that flea shampoo will take care of those.............errrr........Never mind! 8-[


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Matt Vandart said:


> I have pretty much had to teach myself dog training so this forum and others is gold dust to me.
> 
> I have no Ego, it's really handy


I too basically trained in a vacuum and had reinvent many things. I've used lots of stuff off here. And bowwowflix lol. 

I have no ego either. Still, sometimes it's perceived as such I think because if John Doe 40 year kennel master says "do it this way" and it makes no sense to me why, I question and analyze and probe. It's not a "your method is wrong" thing, just a "I must understand why this will work before I can apply it". I also took apart all my toys as a kid (and as an adult)


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Hunter Allred said:


> I too basically trained in a vacuum and had reinvent many things. I've used lots of stuff off here. And bowwowflix lol.
> 
> I have no ego either. Still, sometimes it's perceived as such I think because if John Doe 40 year kennel master says "do it this way" and it makes no sense to me why, I question and analyze and probe. It's not a "your method is wrong" thing, just a "I must understand why this will work before I can apply it". I also took apart all my toys as a kid (and as an adult)


^5 I was a toy taker aparter too!


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

I think a great trainer should try and teach me to be better than he or she is. They don't half ass it when they train their dog or i wouldn't watch them long. That being said there are smart people I can learn from and some I cant. 

I think some good trainers are such good communicators with dogs because humans can't understand them at all so they spend years communicating with dogs. They would appear a saboteur but only incapable of clear commo in reality because they really are dumbfounded why you wouldn't understand. 



Sarah Platts said:


> Nope, they are not trying to figure out how to proceed forward, they are trying to figure out how to keep you back. A whole nuther kettle of fish.
> 
> I've had some crap pulled on me that was just plain WRONG. And EVIL. And I'm not alone. Some folks have stories that worse then mine (how scary is that?) The crabs? They're out there.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Dave Colborn said:


> I think a great trainer should try and teach me to be better than he or she is. They don't half ass it when they train their dog or i wouldn't watch them long. That being said there are smart people I can learn from and some I cant.
> 
> I think some good trainers are such good communicators with dogs because humans can't understand them at all so they spend years communicating with dogs. They would appear a saboteur but only incapable of clear commo in reality because they really are dumbfounded why you wouldn't understand.


you just described my original mentor to a T


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Brian Anderson said:


> you just described my original mentor to a T


Teaching I have tried and not always been successful. Your score as a teacher is based off your students success.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Dave Colborn said:


> . They would appear a saboteur but only incapable of clear commo in reality because they really are dumbfounded why you wouldn't understand.


Nope, they don't appear to be saboteurs, they are saboteurs. Plain and simple.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

I hear you. I am adding the genius that you want to watch to learn from that can't explain which end the dog poops from so it does no good listening to them. Sorry to be unclear.


Sarah Platts said:


> Nope, they don't appear to be saboteurs, they are saboteurs. Plain and simple.


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