# sable mals???



## Peter Cavallaro

seeing more mals that i have to just believe someone saying that they are mals and not believe my eyes. 

went to a seminar (wont mention names) of a multiple world champion trainer or sumthin - and the lady started by playing a vid of one of her trials - in too loud a voice i said "i thought she was a mal chick" stranger next to me gave me a hard elbow to the ribs, apparently its the worst kept secret that her mal is not all mal - freaking obvious even if you only been into dogs for two minutes.

Chris Jones made a post a while back talking about an experiment crossing mals and GSD that was a complete failure. what was the failure???

so many sable mals these days, is it a breed colour???

other confirmation traits particularly in the head structure seems to give the game away a bit.

i learned not to ask direct questions of anyone about this topic or name any particular dogs/kennels. remember the thread on PM threats - a few were related to this very question.

any info on how widespread this cross is???


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## Thomas Barriano

Nicodemus de Ombres Valeureu

2004 DVG SchH III Champion
owned by Diane Wray
Durango Colorado
trained and trialed by Les Flores

NOT a cross 
What is "freaking obvious" is the limits of your knowledge LMAO


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## James Downey

Peter it's not secret that a lot Malinois papers are forged with Shepherds in them. You seem to be more disgusted by the activities you have decided to do with your dogs, than you do enjoy them.


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## Thomas Barriano

There are Mal x GSD's with forged Mal paperwork but there are also Sable Mals with legit paperwork.


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## Lynn Cheffins

a) if it's a sport or work dog why would colour matter at all..?

b) if you called me a 'chick' I would be poking with more than my elbow somewhere in the region of your eyeball...


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## Kadi Thingvall

There are many sable Malinois who are all Malinois. All the sable is, is a heavier overlay than normal. Malinois are supposed to have black tipping on their hairs, the totally fawn with a black mask color that many people are used to seeing isn't actually as correct per the breed standard as a "slightly sable" dog. However that color is what has been popular for many years. 10-15 years ago though the darker dogs became more popular, and you see more and more of them being bred. Look at historical photos of the dogs though, and it's always been there. Or just look at the Tervuren's, who have the same color genetics as the Malinois, the darker dogs have been popular in the Tervs for years and there are routinely dogs who look sable or even black and tan.


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## Lacey Vessell

I had a UScA Schutzhund Judge say that my Malinois (Zane) was NOT a Malinois but was a short-haired sable German Shepherd - even though his paperwork/scorebook/FCI registration states otherwise....so Peter is not alone in not knowing there ARE INDEED dark overlayed mals = sable:-\"


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## Randy Allen

You say tomato I say tomahto.

The Belgium Shepherd; can't they, any of them, come out looking like:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgian_Shepherd_Dog_(Groenendael)
or this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgian_Shepherd_Dog_(Laekenois)
or this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgian_Shepherd_Dog_(Tervuren)
or this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgian_Shepherd_Dog_(Malinois)

Or anything in between? They are all from the same family and with the same range of temperaments only with different coats.

I've got a long hair black saddle and tan GSD, pretty traditional combo. She's a high prey idiot.
I've also got an all black GSD with a more common coat length, should I call him something other than GSD because of color and his different temperament?
Or is he the GSD and she's something other?


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## Rachel Kilburn

Lynn Cheffins said:


> a) if it's a sport or work dog why would colour matter at all..?


THANK YOU!!! I have a sable mal who has NO GSD in him what so ever but he works and works well so I don't really care what looks like


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## Peter Cavallaro

James Downey said:


> Peter it's not secret that a lot Malinois papers are forged with Shepherds in them. You seem to be more disgusted by the activities you have decided to do with your dogs, than you do enjoy them.


how did you get that from my post????


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## Peter Cavallaro

Lynn Cheffins said:


> a) if it's a sport or work dog why would colour matter at all..?
> 
> b) if you called me a 'chick' I would be poking with more than my elbow somewhere in the region of your eyeball...


hey colour doesn't bother me, just asking a question - colour apparently does bother a lot of people evidently??

GSD breed society here told me i will never be able to show my "grey" in conformation shows!!!!! destroyed my dreams.


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## Peter Cavallaro

so anyway what of the cross - obviously is not exactly uncommon - motivation for it resulting dogs???


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## Thomas Barriano

Peter Cavallaro said:


> so anyway what of the cross - obviously is not exactly uncommon - motivation for it resulting dogs???



I think it was just a gimmick. Somebodies GSD and Mal got together and they came up with a line of BS to get a better price for the mutts.
Kind of like labradoodle mutts going for $1500+

I've never seen a GSD x Mal that was as good as an good example
of either foundation breed :-(


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## Christopher Jones

Thomas Barriano said:


> I think it was just a gimmick. Somebodies GSD and Mal got together and they came up with a line of BS to get a better price for the mutts.
> Kind of like labradoodle mutts going for $1500+
> 
> I've never seen a GSD x Mal that was as good as an good example
> of either foundation breed :-(


 Mike S did a couple of GSD/Dutchie crosses and if I remember correctly he wasnt over fond of them and said he wouldnt repeat it.


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## Peter Cavallaro

i seen one, multiple world champion thats not a cross apparently.


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## Bob Scott

I spent 3 weeks testing a litter for my first GSD pup. There was a nice little bi-colored bitch and a nice sable dog that tested equally. From that I chose based on color. :-o:-o:-o:-o THERE! I said it! :razz::razz: :wink:


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## Daryl Ehret

Is that an off-topic comment?


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## herman williams

in europe it is pretty common knowledge that pedigree malinois have some incorrect info here and there , sable ok , we also have black saddled malinois , malis with white front legs , malis the size of a great dane, malis with the head of a pittbull and you name it , , but same can be said for workingline bouviers and dutchies so who cares really


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## rick smith

off topic but since color and shepherds have been mentioned
...white gsd's...
knew a friend with one who said white wasn't recognized by AKC but was OK for UKC, etc., and others who felt white should be culled, which makes the white gsd people band together to defend them, etc etc

...so the Q is are there white shepherds being used for working stock by those who don't care about color or is white taboo for some reason ...??... all i can think of is white doesn't stand out as much when mingled w/ mostly white sheep ?? is that a problem for the (human) shepherd ?


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## Christopher Smith

Thomas Barriano said:


> I've never seen a GSD x Mal that was as good as an good example
> of either foundation breed :-(


Says the blind man. 


Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk


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## susan tuck

rick smith said:


> off topic but since color and shepherds have been mentioned
> ...white gsd's...
> knew a friend with one who said white wasn't recognized by AKC but was OK for UKC, etc., and others who felt white should be culled, which makes the white gsd people band together to defend them, etc etc
> 
> ....


There is now a seperate breed recognized by FCI called Berger Blanc Suisse. I believe if you want to find something that is good for working you would need to look in that direction:
http://www.berger-blanc-international.com/#Home


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## mike suttle

I crossed Arko to a GSD female twice. Neither time did I get what I liked, so I never did it again with Arko. I have bought some very nice Mali X GSD crosses over the years from Holland though so I know it can be done with sucess. At the moment I have two nice detector dogs here that are mali X GSD crosses and they work fine. 
I trained with a Dutchie X GSD cross two weeks ago that was a very nice dog, I'd buy him for sure if he was for sale.
But I doubt if i do that cross anymore here, I got one or two very good dogs from it, but way too many average or below average dogs for our standard. Just wasn't consistant enough.


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## Peter Cavallaro

mike suttle said:


> I crossed Arko to a GSD female twice. Neither time did I get what I liked, so I never did it again with Arko. I have bought some very nice Mali X GSD crosses over the years from Holland though so I know it can be done with sucess. At the moment I have two nice detector dogs here that are mali X GSD crosses and they work fine.
> I trained with a Dutchie X GSD cross two weeks ago that was a very nice dog, I'd buy him for sure if he was for sale.
> But I doubt if i do that cross anymore here, I got one or two very good dogs from it, but way too many average or below average dogs for our standard. *Just wasn't consistant enough*.


Mike no breeder here but as i understand it consistancy and unfirormity in a litter will never be achieved in one or two lmatings, the whole concept of dog families and tight line breeding.....???

consistancy is a complaint voiced on here about KNPV program which some feel relies more on washing out large numbers of dogs than it does producing a smaller number of capable dogs??


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## Peter Cavallaro

rick smith said:


> off topic but since color and shepherds have been mentioned
> ...white gsd's...
> knew a friend with one who said white wasn't recognized by AKC but was OK for UKC, etc., and others who felt white should be culled, which makes the white gsd people band together to defend them, etc etc
> 
> ...so the Q is are there white shepherds being used for working stock by those who don't care about color or is white taboo for some reason ...??... all i can think of is white doesn't stand out as much when mingled w/ mostly white sheep ?? is that a problem for the (human) shepherd ?


i think white from specific lines is accepted by AKC, who cares they sell good.


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## Bob Scott

Follow the lines back on most of our dogs and I believe there is a white GSD in the 1890s.
I have no idea if there was something seen back in the day that made the white dog unpopular for breeding but today it's all about the color and nothing to do with breeding for good dogs.


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## Jami Craig

They can be sable....some will argue that geneticly they ARE sable (though technically I think the "traditional" sable is A^w^ while Mals would be A^y^ with a mask in there? My dog genetics off the top of my head are rusty....)

formal genetic stuff aside if you look in a standard traditional color malinois coat you will see the agouti hairs. Even in the red/fawn parts there are black hairs. So even if not "formally" sable in the same way a shepherd is they can look sable enough that anyone looking at them goes "hey that's a sable dog!"

My super traditionally colored black masked fawn malinois has "sable" agouti hairs on his head and chest and black hairs throughout the body. 

while yes, forged pedigrees happen, assuming a dog is not a purebred of its breed because it's color expression is only very slightly different from what people are used to seeing is stupid. Ask the average person on the street what breed a sable shepherd is and many of them will answer "wolf hybrid"....or in the case of black shepherds "lab mix".



also, white german shepherds are pigmented white (not albino, not "partial albino", no blue eyes, not merle), there is nothing in their color that makes them inferior or unhealthy. The reason they're not as "good" as the typical working shepherd is they were selected against (during WWII I believe?)and therefore limited to a very small breeding population (smaller than other breeds of purebred dogs) which the focus now is more in showring style shepherd and well, if you breed to trot in a circle you're going to get dogs who trot in a circle. Crossing to colored shepherds isn't encouraged since I believe that most of the shepherds colors express over the white so getting all the traits you want PLUS getting back to white can be difficult. Plus, as with any very small breeding population people are willing to overlook certain health issues in favor of traits they like. One stud can screw up thousands upon thousands of dogs down the road (and this doesn't apply to just dogs....look at HYPP in quarter horses....)


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## Jami Craig

out of curiosity, how much consistency would you expect/hope for in a cross? I don't mean this in a snarky manner or anything, I'm curious. Are the rules for crosses different? I would think that two exceptional dogs of their (different) breeds put together would produce not-so-great puppies, but an exceptional dog in its breed crossed with a complimenting, but perhaps not-as-nice example of a different breed would produce nicer dogs?

Stupid example but say for some weird horrible reason wanted lab traits in my malinois I'd cross a nice mal with a not-as-great-for-a-lab lab (maybe one who missed the whole soft mouth thing and excells at bitework) to not crush the bitework ability of the malinois but add the floppy ears and coat that I wanted?


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## james mackey

Is this what you are referring to?


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## herman williams

I think peter cavelaro makes some exelent points there , put them on a tile and hang them on the wall:-D


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## susan tuck

Bob Scott said:


> Follow the lines back on most of our dogs and I believe there is a white GSD in the 1890s.


Yep, Horand von Grafrath's grand sire was Greif von Sparwasser, a white dog.


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## jim stevens

I honestly would have called mine a darker fawn color, but the breeder said she should be shown as sable, and that she would get darker as she ages. She has certainly gotten darker in just four months, lot of charcoal hair on her sides, completely charcoal on front, legs, etc. She is mostly Joefarm breeding with several crosses to Elgos du Chemin des Plaines. I do know if you look at their studs on the website, the majority are sable in color, not fawn.


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## Daryl Ehret

Jami Craig said:


> out of curiosity, how much consistency would you expect/hope for in a cross?


You can achieve MORE consistency in a cross, provided both producers are MORE homozygous for thier type (meaning, linebred). Not saying better or worse, just consistent, as each producer takes the lead in their respective dominant traits over the other. This really only applies to the F1 generation.

Another consideration to that statement is, traits that are "genetically linked". Certain genes are in close proximity to other genes in segments of the chromosome where they frequently break and become independantly resorted. This is to say, that each and every individual locus is NOT independantly assorted, and these segment "series" of loci can consist of both dominant and recessive alleles for seemingly unrelated characteristics that are passed on as a 'group set', good, bad or indifferent.


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## Peter Cavallaro

Daryl Ehret said:


> You can achieve MORE consistency in a cross, provided both producers are MORE homozygous for thier type (meaning, linebred). Not saying better or worse, just consistent, as each producer takes the lead in their respective dominant traits over the other. This really only applies to the F1 generation.
> 
> Another consideration to that statement is, traits that are "genetically linked". Certain genes are in close proximity to other genes in segments of the chromosome where they frequently break and become independantly resorted. *This is to say, that each and every individual locus is NOT independantly assorted, and these segment "series" of loci can consist of both dominant and recessive alleles for seemingly unrelated characteristics that are passed on as a 'group set'*, good, bad or indifferent.


if you ever say anything like that again on one of my threads.... i swear...


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## Ariel Peldunas

Daryl Ehret said:


> You can achieve MORE consistency in a cross, provided both producers are MORE homozygous for thier type (meaning, linebred). Not saying better or worse, just consistent, as each producer takes the lead in their respective dominant traits over the other. This really only applies to the F1 generation.
> 
> Another consideration to that statement is, traits that are "genetically linked". Certain genes are in close proximity to other genes in segments of the chromosome where they frequently break and become independantly resorted. This is to say, that each and every individual locus is NOT independantly assorted, and these segment "series" of loci can consist of both dominant and recessive alleles for seemingly unrelated characteristics that are passed on as a 'group set', good, bad or indifferent.


Daryl,

Do you have any references you can recommend for further reading about genetically linked traits? That's very interesting to me and I'd like to learn more.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Peter Cavallaro said:


> seeing more mals that i have to just believe someone saying that they are mals and not believe my eyes.
> 
> went to a seminar (wont mention names) of a multiple world champion trainer or sumthin - and the lady started by playing a vid of one of her trials - in too loud a voice i said "i thought she was a mal chick" stranger next to me gave me a hard elbow to the ribs, apparently its the worst kept secret that her mal is not all mal - freaking obvious even if you only been into dogs for two minutes.
> 
> Chris Jones made a post a while back talking about an experiment crossing mals and GSD that was a complete failure. what was the failure???
> 
> so many sable mals these days, is it a breed colour???
> 
> other confirmation traits particularly in the head structure seems to give the game away a bit.
> 
> i learned not to ask direct questions of anyone about this topic or name any particular dogs/kennels. remember the thread on PM threats - a few were related to this very question.
> 
> any info on how widespread this cross is???



First of all you won't get many 'mali people' to accept that their dog has some german shepherd blood because many 'mali people' view the GSD as a lesser working dog and many are too opinionated even though they have little experience with either breed.
As for the sable mals i think there are many pure lines that could have that colour, considering the history of both breeds that shouldn't come as a surprise. I have seen a few fawn GSDs if that's relevant. That being said there are some that are results of crosses. Bart Bellon's dog is a GSD/Mali Mix and the dog works good if thats not the understatement of the year.
If you stay long enough with dogs you'll know both breeds are wonderful and preferred for various reasons. Neither is better so don't listen to opinionated people. 
This is lobbes van de vroomshoeve a dog from Bert Kikkert's breeding, the day we went to pick the dog from the airport i was pretty sure i was looking at a GSD but Bert said it was pure mali and i think it was....


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## Mario Fernandez

I always believed behind any good Mal their is a GSD and behind any good GSD their is a mal. Usually it is the "GSD people" that squirm a bit. Does it matter no. 

I like color in the mals, a nice deep red mahagoany to a nice balck over lay...

O the do you posted (love the dog's ped) has a few shots of Arco, Elgos and a Terv is a possible reason for his coloring.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Mario Fernandez said:


> I always believed behind any good Mal their is a GSD and behind any good GSD their is a mal. Usually it is the "GSD people" that squirm a bit. Does it matter no.
> 
> I like color in the mals, a nice deep red mahagoany to a nice balck over lay...
> 
> O the do you posted (love the dog's ped) has a few shots of Arco, Elgos and a Terv is a possible reason for his coloring.


If you mean GSD people are more bent on purity then i agree but i see more mali people not wanting to believe their malis have some GSD blood regardless of if its true or not. 
Here's another shot of lobbes here

http://www.google.co.th/imgres?hl=e...208&start=29&ndsp=9&ved=1t:429,r:5,s:29,i:152


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## Peter Cavallaro

I take it as a nutty dog people thing working dog or not. I know of people marketing their pure rare special black mals, they fail to mention the brindle and fawn pups in the same rare special litter. They get sold from the same kennels other websites marketing pure mals and pure dutchies, three kennels for the running costs of one.

Pure, shorthand for putrid ethics.

long story short, good dog's a good dog and a good dog means something different for every dog owner.


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## Peter Cavallaro

Hey Ol, you from Thai, were in the same hood-ish, we gotta train some time man, you get to oz. much?


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## Daryl Ehret

Peter Cavallaro said:


> if you ever say anything like that again on one of my threads.... i swear...


Ha ha, I thought I might get in trouble for that.



Ariel Peldunas said:


> Daryl,
> 
> Do you have any references you can recommend for further reading about genetically linked traits? That's very interesting to me and I'd like to learn more.


I think we went into it some in the breeding threads here, Dr. Temple Grandin discusses it in some of her writing. An LOD score is a _"statistical estimate of whether two loci (the sites of genes) are likely to lie near each other on a chromosome and are therefore likely to be inherited together as a package."_ I don't have sources for gsd's or mals, specifically, nor any firsthand experience crossing the two, but you can be sure that if there's a segment containing coding for sable on a mal gene, there are other genes that are also passed in unison.


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## Peter Cavallaro

Ok here's one for ya., with all that transegmentational locational stuff can you ever with enough generations turn one purebred dog into another purebred dog of a different breed?


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## Joby Becker

If you mean without crossing breeds Pete, sure, if you change the morphology enough and slap a new name on it...


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## Peter Cavallaro

Morphology what, I meant change by translocating the transitional transgender transit stuff can you get a lab to turn into a corgi given enough generations.


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## julie allen

I have several sable mals. About half of this litter look to be sables.


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## Christopher Smith

> Ok here's one for ya., with all that transegmentational locational stuff can you ever with enough generations turn one purebred dog into another purebred dog of a different breed?


No. The concept of a "purebred" is an artificial construct and is about the paperwork not the dog. 

There was a experiment about 15 or 20 years ago in England were they crossed boxers to corgis to try to insert the tailless gene into the boxer. They crossed the dogs then bred the tailless ones back to boxers. In three generations boxer judges could not tell the difference between the hybrids and purebreds.

Also there is a book by a guy with the last name Whitman (sp) that is about the inheritance of dogs. In this book he writes about the MANY crosses he did. He did stuff like breed a hound to a Basinji and over several generations had a dog that looked like a hound but sounded like a Basinji. 



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## susan tuck

Christopher Smith said:


> No. The concept of a "purebred" is an artificial construct and is about the paperwork not the dog.
> 
> There was a experiment about 15 or 20 years ago in England were they crossed boxers to corgis to try to insert the tailless gene into the boxer. They crossed the dogs then bred the tailless ones back to boxers. In three generations boxer judges could not tell the difference between the hybrids and purebreds.
> 
> Also there is a book by a guy with the last name Whitman (sp) that is about the inheritance of dogs. In this book he writes about the MANY crosses he did. He did stuff like breed a hound to a Basinji and over several generations had a dog that looked like a hound but sounded like a Basinji.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk


There are also the LUA Dalmations (dalmation X pointer). I learned about these on this board, from Bob I think.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Here's my sable "Malinois." There may or may not be some Siberian husky in there too though. :-$ ;-) She's five months now.










My old Mal/GSD cross did not have much black overlay at all. Definitely not sable.


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## Peter Cavallaro

julie allen said:


> I have several sable mals. About half of this litter look to be sables.


Then you seemed well postionedto actually make an informed comment.


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## Peter Cavallaro

Holy sh!t, I thought I was just being completely irrational and sarcastic, and its a fact!!!!!!

Very interesting, thanks, I def gonna read that experiment.

I bet you just blew a lot of minds here on what people thought they knew.




Christopher Smith said:


> No. The concept of a "purebred" is an artificial construct and is about the paperwork not the dog.
> 
> There was a experiment about 15 or 20 years ago in England were they crossed boxers to corgis to try to insert the tailless gene into the boxer. They crossed the dogs then bred the tailless ones back to boxers. In three generations boxer judges could not tell the difference between the hybrids and purebreds.
> 
> Also there is a book by a guy with the last name Whitman (sp) that is about the inheritance of dogs. In this book he writes about the MANY crosses he did. He did stuff like breed a hound to a Basinji and over several generations had a dog that looked like a hound but sounded like a Basinji.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk


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## Gerald Dunn

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Here's my sable "Malinois." There may or may not be some Siberian husky in there too though. :-$ ;-) She's five months now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My old Mal/GSD cross did not have much black overlay at all. Definitely not sable.


nice pup, what are you training it for?


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## Maren Bell Jones

I'm training her in whatever she thinks is fun. :smile: She is going to be my husband's dock diving dog and I will see if she wants to play in PSA. She is very people oriented and people can't help but pet her, so she may be my next therapy dog as well.


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## Daryl Ehret

Beautiful pup. I have to wonder when I see some GSD's with that same kind of sable. It's not usual.

Yeah, as Christopher says, it's how you define the breed, by it's "standard" and the papers to prove purebreeding. All dogs are the same species, but breed is artificial. That's one thing I couldn't get about the endangered species protection of the grey wolf. It would be a federal offense to kill ANY dog at all, I would think.


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## Christopher Smith

Daryl Ehret said:


> It would be a federal offense to kill ANY dog at all, I would think.


It is.


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## Christopher Smith

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## Daryl Ehret

OK, to rephrase, a "violation of the endangered species act" to kill ANY dog.


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## Christopher Smith

Here is the cover and a few pages from the book I mentioned above. This is one of the most interesting books that I own. It has the results of a lot of experiments that will probably never be repeated again. 
And it's still relatively cheap to buy. If you are interested in the breeding of dogs you need to have this book.

Also, if you really want to find out about Malinois color learn what sable means and how it is expressed. For instance when a Malinois has a saddle or is a bi-color sable you will learn that it does not have to be mixed with GSD or some other breed. Learn about the modifying locus (check out E and K especially) and you will see that you can't tell a Malinois by it's color. And since the Malinois is a far older breed/type than the GSD, it's just as probable that the GSD is expressing "Malinois color" as it is that the oddball Malinois is expressing "GSD color". So in the simplest terms, it's foolish to judge a dog by it's color.


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## Gerald Dunn

“Belgians from start to finished” by Sallyann Comestock is the full history of the Mal's but the only one I could find was $400 [-( check old book stores to see if you can find one. the original cost was only about $30


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## Christopher Smith

Gerald Dunn said:


> “Belgians from start to finished” by Sallyann Comestock is the full history of the Mal's but the only one I could find was $400 [-( check old book stores to see if you can find one. the original cost was only about $30


Why are you bringing up this book?

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## Lynn Cheffins

Sable (agouti) = pretty common colour in alot of breeds
Alaskan Husky 'Cliff'


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## Peter Cavallaro

Common in alaskan huskies does not equal common in a lot of breeds.


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## Lynn Cheffins

It's a common colour in alot of breeds.


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## Lynn Cheffins

good link http://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/services/coatcolordog.php


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## Gerald Dunn

Christopher Smith said:


> Why are you bringing up this book?
> 
> Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk


to find out what you have today you must look back at the history and this book shows you where the mal's came from

have you read it?


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## Christopher Smith

Gerald Dunn said:


> to find out what you have today you must look back at the history and this book shows you where the mal's came from
> 
> have you read it?


Yes

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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Hey Ol, you from Thai, were in the same hood-ish, we gotta train some time man, you get to oz. much?



Heyy u kidding??? U live in thailand also??? we should definitely meet....I live in bangkok just opposite my university.....i'll send u a pm with my other contactss


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## Peter Cavallaro

Nah man I live in australia, still close. Figured you might be around here sometime. Its all asia basically, thats what I meant by same hood.

food's better in thailand than here so I heard. You go watch the kick boxing?


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Nah man I live in australia, still close. Figured you might be around here sometime. Its all asia basically, thats what I meant by same hood.
> 
> food's better in thailand than here so I heard. You go watch the kick boxing?


Ahhh my bad.....wish there were more dog trainers here...
Yesss there's a lot of variety, a lot of spicy food. Most foreigners love it but i'm a very picky eater so i dont get to enjoy that part of thailand.


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## Britney Pelletier

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Chris Jones made a post a while back talking about an experiment crossing mals and GSD that was a complete failure. what was the failure???


I don't know what failure you're referencing.. I can't see how the cross has been any more of a failure than either breed themselves. In both breeds and the crossing of the two, you have good dogs and bad dogs. Pets and super working quality.

Personally, I have seen many Malinois, many GSD, many DS and many Mal/GSD crosses and I firmly believe someone in Europe is doing something right with their cross breeding (which is most likely not "doing" much of anything at all), because some of the NICEST dogs I have ever seen were crosses.. all that I have seen have been consistently nice and super, super workers.

I think I'd even own one. :-D


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## Peter Cavallaro

Not doing the search but its in one of Chris Jones GSD hater threads. Might have been a reference to Mike's litters already mentioned on this thread by Mike??


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## Daryl Ehret

Well, but that's one man's experience (on two occasions). You can put two fabulous dog together and have a crappy or inconsistent litter. Having the phenotype doesn't guarantee the genotype to produce itself consistently, or say anything in regards to how the breeding pair compliment each other.


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## Peter Cavallaro

True that. the cross is evidently common, more common than many are prepared to admit.

Must be more money in selling some vague notion of purity than there is in just selling a dog that works.


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## Britney Pelletier

Daryl Ehret said:


> You can put two fabulous dog together and have a crappy or inconsistent litter.


Amen!


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## Thomas Barriano

Does anyone have any video of a GSD x Malinois or GSD x DS that they think is a good working dog and better then a pure bred Mal or GSD or
DS?


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## Christopher Smith

To what Malinois or GSD? Some Malinois and GSDs suck.

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk


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## Peter Cavallaro

Thomas Barriano said:


> Does anyone have any video of a GSD x Malinois or GSD x DS that they think is a good working dog and better then a pure bred Mal or GSD or
> DS?


The cross doesnt exist so how can it be videod??

You have missed the point Thomas.


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## Thomas Barriano

Christopher Smith said:


> To what Malinois or GSD? Some Malinois and GSDs suck.
> 
> Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk


A video of any cross compared to an average Mal or GSD


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## Thomas Barriano

Peter Cavallaro said:


> The cross doesnt exist so how can it be videod??
> 
> You have missed the point Thomas.


No Peter you missed the point.

There are pure bred Sable Mals
AND
there are sable Mal x GSD's
The question is has any Mal x GSD breeding produced a better dog?
I asked for video.


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## Peter Cavallaro

Lol., average, I can find a really good jrt that works better than a really bad mal, or a mastiff faster than a slow greyhound, or bouv that herds better than a BC or someone's ds better than someone elses mal or ....

What does any of it prove about dog breeds.


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## Peter Cavallaro

I missed that point but you missed the point that the breeding is occurring but people lie/falsify the cross so DUH they are not going to video it.


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## Joby Becker

video of a GSD X MAL that is better

Better than what? either a mal or a gsd? That is kind of a relative thing...


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## Peter Cavallaro

Joby Becker said:


> video of a GSD X MAL that is better
> 
> Better than what? either a mal or a gsd? That is kind of a relative thing...


Wrong Joby, its not a relative thing, its a thing thats totally devoid of any meaning. Something a puppy peddler would say to a noob.


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## Thomas Barriano

OK I"ll make it simple for everyone. 
Post any video of a Mal x GSD doing any kind of bite work.


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## Peter Cavallaro

Link to Bart Bellon anyone, wont ID the world champ sch crossbred I viewed.......its a secret apparently.


,Thomas noone admits the cross exists for the n'th time. They are not going to prove it by vid.

Correction, the euro breeders dont have a problem admitting it, nor do they care.........want papers, just fax me yr prefered ped and $100 its done lol.


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## Thomas Barriano

Peter Cavallaro said:


> ,Thomas noone admits the cross exists for the n'th time. They are not going to prove it by vid.
> 
> Correction, the euro breeders dont have a problem admitting it, nor do they care.........want papers, just fax me yr prefered ped and $100 its done lol.


Peter

WTF are you talking about? There are people on the WDF that have done the cross. It was actually quite popular in some circles a few years ago in the US. 
It sounds like you're just regurgitating something you heard someone else say?


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## Peter Cavallaro

Lot of what I'm regurgitating comes off this thread whats yr point??

Only repeating it cos YOU didn't get it the first time, do I need to quote posts, nah use the back button yrself.


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## Thomas Barriano

Peter,

If you think that GSD x Mals cross doesn't exist or that people just don't want to admit it? You have a reading comprehension problem.
Once again S L O W L Y
There are sable mals with legit FCI registration
There are sable GSD x Mals that may have any kind of forged paper work or NO paperwork
The two are NOT mutually exclusive.


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## Peter Cavallaro

Oh, why didn't ya say that in post #2, the thread would have been over.

Any vids to prove it......kiddin.


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## tony mason

A very nice mongrel I have.


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## Peter Cavallaro

Not a video, wont convince Thomas.


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## andreas broqvist

The head of policedogs in my region of Sweden did à Mali X GSD mix. I saw one of them on the police dog national. Lookt like à nice dog.
Al thos dogs was placed in police/working homes. Some workt out some not if I herd it right. But het first gen mix is not the best way to breed constant  

I presonly like the Mali lines with GSDs in them. My 3 favorite Malis have GSDs in 3 gen. Ofcaus not on papper but anyone that knows anything abot Mali peds knows they are ther. If I wuld change to Mali thos lines wuld be My first chose.
Wery stabel, smart and hard dogs.


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## Peter Cavallaro

tony mason said:


> A very nice mongrel I have.


 Nice dog, share anymore pics/vids??


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## Peter Cavallaro

Any pics, please??




andreas broqvist said:


> The head of policedogs in my region of Sweden did à Mali X GSD mix. I saw one of them on the police dog national. Lookt like à nice dog.
> Al thos dogs was placed in police/working homes. Some workt out some not if I herd it right. But het first gen mix is not the best way to breed constant
> 
> I presonly like the Mali lines with GSDs in them. My 3 favorite Malis have GSDs in 3 gen. Ofcaus not on papper but anyone that knows anything abot Mali peds knows they are ther. If I wuld change to Mali thos lines wuld be My first chose.
> Wery stabel, smart and hard dogs.


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## andreas broqvist

I tryed to find anny pics of the first gen cros "police dogs" but I did not find them right now. I Will se if I can find them.

The other dogs with GSDs in ther ped are Red with black mask mostly. 
So they look like any other Mali.


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## Joby Becker

here are some I found in about 5 mintues of looking...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJoClo3ppGU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJ9x1cl6pW0&feature=plcp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUcSC-6VqhQ&feature=plcp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqySZEH-efA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfB1syj-eBk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIol3fzc6yQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCUA-T0yzWQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bgE2xHLYuY&feature=channel&list=UL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRaCv4Njcnk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRG3qRGVeC8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAJ1rXDsAaw


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## andreas broqvist

I downt think any of thos was the swedish cros. 
But tanks for posting.


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## Joby Becker

andreas broqvist said:


> I downt think any of thos was the swedish cros.
> But tanks for posting.


no no, was just posting videos for Thomas that I was able to find on youtube quickly...


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## andreas broqvist

Ok  taught you wher refering to My post 

Its nice to se the movies you posted. Most of the dogs are almost completly Mali colored. And they are first gen Crosses. Its Fun that some think they can se the Cross by just looking at the color


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## Christopher Smith

Joby Becker said:


> here are some I found in about 5 mintues of looking...
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJoClo3ppGU
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJ9x1cl6pW0&feature=plcp
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUcSC-6VqhQ&feature=plcp
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqySZEH-efA
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfB1syj-eBk
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIol3fzc6yQ
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCUA-T0yzWQ
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bgE2xHLYuY&feature=channel&list=UL
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRaCv4Njcnk
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRG3qRGVeC8
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAJ1rXDsAaw


Now I have to question if these mixed dogs can bite off of a 6 foot line.

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk


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## Joby Becker

Christopher Smith said:


> Now I have to question if these mixed dogs can bite off of a 6 foot line.
> 
> Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk


LOL 

there were a couple in there Chris


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## Peter Cavallaro

Thanks for links Joby, third link from the bottom, women kicking the bad guys butt, lol,, nice dog at 7mo

Looks like drive is not compromised in the cross. Yeah colours is very mal, are there any gsd free mal lines??





B][/B]


Joby Becker said:


> here are some I found in about 5 mintues of looking...
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJoClo3ppGU
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJ9x1cl6pW0&feature=plcp
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUcSC-6VqhQ&feature=plcp
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqySZEH-efA
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfB1syj-eBk
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIol3fzc6yQ
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCUA-T0yzWQ
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bgE2xHLYuY&feature=channel&list=UL
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRaCv4Njcnk
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRG3qRGVeC8
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAJ1rXDsAaw


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## Joby Becker

I think you might be "losing it" Peter ....


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## Gina Pasieka

Bart Bellon's dog is a bicolored mal. Of course NBVK pedigrees can be questionable...but he is not listed as a mix. Here is his pedigree. 

http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/196408/Flik-van-de-Leibeekhoeve


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## Peter Cavallaro

Gina Pasieka said:


> Bart Bellon's dog is a bicolored mal. Of course NBVK pedigrees can be questionable...but he is not listed as a mix. Here is his pedigree.
> 
> http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/196408/Flik-van-de-Leibeekhoeve[/QUOTE
> 
> ]
> 
> Gina why would you cast doubt on a pedigree????? Thats scintillating accusation, you better be able to back something like that up before you put it on the internet......... Just kiddin.


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## Gina Pasieka

I know...I posted that so I could avoid the onslaught of "so and so's" pedigree wasn't real...;-)


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## Peter Cavallaro

Gina Pasieka said:


> I know...I posted that so I could avoid the onslaught of "so and so's" pedigree wasn't real...;-)


Haha, good call, funny thing is it only takes one false entry in a ped and potentially thousands of dogs - over generations - all have false peds. one of the pdb mods even said the pdb has so many errors/falsifications that it is no longer possible to fix.


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## Joby Becker

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Haha, good call, funny thing is it only takes one false entry in a ped and potentially thousands of dogs - over generations - all have false peds. one of the pdb mods even said the pdb has so many errors/falsifications that it is no longer possible to fix.


well luckily the PDB is not official registry then


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## Peter Cavallaro

Joby Becker said:


> well luckily the PDB is not official registry then


True but the most widely referenced ped database on the planet, check the majority of peds quoted here. 

Interesting to see a dog with a pdb ped and a different ped on its main register...embarrassing.


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## Joby Becker

Peter Cavallaro said:


> True but the most widely referenced ped database on the planet, check the majority of peds quoted here.
> 
> Interesting to see a dog with a pdb ped and a different ped on its main register...embarrassing.


well the pdb is user entered, and a lot of dogs are entered in there, not by their owners either, but by someone that may own a grandson or something, some of the errors are just confusion or mistakes I am sure, they cant all be intentional, but the results are the same...if someone wants to list their dogs on there, they have to enter in all the ancestors. I could put a pedigree up for your dog...lol, that is how controlled it is..


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## Kadi Thingvall

Gina Pasieka said:


> Bart Bellon's dog is a bicolored mal. Of course NBVK pedigrees can be questionable...but he is not listed as a mix. Here is his pedigree.
> 
> http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/196408/Flik-van-de-Leibeekhoeve


 
I would tend to believe what Bart says about his dog, that he's a Malinois and that is his pedigree, simply because he has freely admitted in the past when he had a GSD/Mal cross. Also the black and tan coloration isn't unknown in Belgians, it's shown up in other varieties also, the genes are floating around out there.


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## Gillian Schuler

susan tuck said:


> There is now a seperate breed recognized by FCI called Berger Blanc Suisse. I believe if you want to find something that is good for working you would need to look in that direction:
> http://www.berger-blanc-international.com/#Home


Oh no! don't go there! Look what they did to the Cairn terrier. I cringe at the thought of it. The West Highland White has been reduced to "selling" dog food by portraiting its face on tinned dog food.

I guess you're joiking Susan :wink:

The Berger Blanc Suisse is similar to the West Highland White in character - white as snow and just as soft.


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## Gina Pasieka

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I would tend to believe what Bart says about his dog, that he's a Malinois and that is his pedigree, simply because he has freely admitted in the past when he had a GSD/Mal cross. Also the black and tan coloration isn't unknown in Belgians, it's shown up in other varieties also, the genes are floating around out there.


I believe the pedigree. I have seen the dog and it is a mal. I was just trying to avoid the he said she said thing that can sometimes occur when you post a pedigree here 8-[


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## susan tuck

Gillian Schuler said:


> Oh no! don't go there! Look what they did to the Cairn terrier. I cringe at the thought of it. The West Highland White has been reduced to "selling" dog food by portraiting its face on tinned dog food.
> 
> I guess you're joiking Susan :wink:
> 
> The Berger Blanc Suisse is similar to the West Highland White in character - white as snow and just as soft.


So no change from the white GSDs.


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## Joby Becker

oops wrong thread...


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## Karen M Wood

ok question, I've seen black mals, is there anyone actively working and titling any? And as for the mal/gsd cross my local police force had a very nice working male. Who was shepherd and mal. 
There are two posted in the photo bios, an the dog i was thinking about is now retired.
Also notice that the Hendrix's dog Dutch is wrongly listed as a GSd, he's a huge dutchie. Anyone else working the cross?
http://www.tampagov.net/dept_Police..._SUPPORT_DIVISION/K-9_UNIT/Handlers/index.asp 
Thanks
K


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## julie allen

Karen M Wood said:


> ok question, I've seen black mals, is there anyone actively working and titling any? And as for the mal/gsd cross my local police force had a very nice working male. Who was shepherd and mal.
> There are two posted in the photo bios, an the dog i was thinking about is now retired.
> Also notice that the Hendrix's dog Dutch is wrongly listed as a GSd, he's a huge dutchie. Anyone else working the cross?
> http://www.tampagov.net/dept_Police..._SUPPORT_DIVISION/K-9_UNIT/Handlers/index.asp
> Thanks
> K


A friend of mine in Mississippi has working and titled (some.detection something so not sure the names) black mals. He also had two bi colored mals turn up in a recent litter.


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## Zakia Days

Mal in shepherd clothing?  Or sable mal? LOL!


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