# Dutch Shepherd KNPV vs FCI Breeding



## David Scholes

I've found a few articles on the history and breeding of the DS and they indicate that there are unregistered knpv lines and FCI registered lines. Is one group favored over the other for real world military or police work? Do the KNPV unregistered lines have any breeding advantage due to a broader range of mate prospects, which may include FCI or even other breeds? I'm curious on how similar or different the two groups are within the DS breed.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

totally different...very harshly said: they only have their brindle in common.
Have to go to work, will answer later.


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## Jason Fox

I would be interested in hearing the differences explained also...


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## Lee H Sternberg

Me toooooo!


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## Barrie Kirkland

Very interested to know also


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## Tim Martens

generally speaking:

FCI registered HH's: appear thinner and more frail. their chest's aren't as deep and their head's aren't as big. these dogs are not unlike showline GSD's. they are generally bred for looks/conformation first and working ability is a distant second (if at all). 

yes, there are FCI registered HH's competing in KNPV, but one look at those dogs will tell you their pedigrees may not be very accurate/truthful.


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## Barrie Kirkland

got any pictures ?


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## Jason Fox

Gerben Kamphuis wrote a nice article describing the developement of the breed and the differences between the KNPV dogs and the FCI dogs...

http://members.home.nl/mechelaar32/hh-history.htm


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## David Scholes

Jason Fox said:


> Gerben Kamphuis wrote a nice article describing the developement of the breed and the differences between the KNPV dogs and the FCI dogs...
> 
> http://members.home.nl/mechelaar32/hh-history.htm


Thanks. That does go into more detail than other articles I've read. My impression is for working pursuits it is better to stay away from FCI registered dogs.


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## Gerry Grimwood

David Scholes said:


> My impression is for working pursuits it is better to stay away from FCI registered dogs.


One could argue that the same could be said about any breed, if the breeding is geared to performance then the purebred or registered dog becomes less important. 

Why is it that mainly the Dutch Shepherd and Malinois have been accepted as a mixed breed by most people ?


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## David Scholes

Gerry Grimwood said:


> One could argue that the same could be said about any breed, if the breeding is geared to performance then the purebred or registered dog becomes less important.
> 
> Why is it that mainly the Dutch Shepherd and Malinois have been accepted as a mixed breed by most people ?


When you say mixed breed, I assume you mean not registered with a confirmation oriented all breed registry? Or are they regularly mixed with other breeds and it is accepted as long as they work and have the right coloring matching either a DS or Mal?

Didn't the breed registries start at about the same time as the eugenics movements started becoming popular? The fanaticism about keeping the blood pure seems constraining and counter productive.


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## Jason Fox

KNPV Malinois and Dutch Shepherds are regularly "mixed' with each other. Oftentimes breedings will result in part of the litter being brindle and part of the litter being fawn. In litters such as this the brindle dogs are labeled as Dutch Shepherds and the Fawn dogs as Malinos.


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## Bob Scott

Jason Fox said:


> KNPV Malinois and Dutch Shepherds are regularly "mixed' with each other. Oftentimes breedings will result in part of the litter being brindle and part of the litter being fawn. In litters such as this the brindle dogs are labeled as Dutch Shepherds and the Fawn dogs as Malinos.


 
This is how many breeds are "developed". 
At one time the Smooth and Wirehaired terriers were one and the same. Folks started breeding for one or the other until they were separated in to two different breeds. Same with the Norwick and Norfolk terriers, Cairn and Westie. It's thought that the Dandie, the Border and the Bedlington were once similar dogs if not often crossed for "improvement".
There are still terrier men that have no problems using a different "breed" to enhance/improve/rekindle their particular lines. In particular in the British Isles. What Germany/Czech, Dutch, etc are to the working GSD/Mal, the Brits are to terriers. 
They have some rockin dogs over there. 
Breed worker to worker!


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## David Scholes

Jason Fox said:


> KNPV Malinois and Dutch Shepherds are regularly "mixed' with each other. Oftentimes breedings will result in part of the litter being brindle and part of the litter being fawn. In litters such as this the brindle dogs are labeled as Dutch Shepherds and the Fawn dogs as Malinos.


I assume they still do a lot of line breeding but just are more flexible about what new blood they bring in to improve their line?


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## Gerry Grimwood

David Scholes said:


> I assume they still do a lot of line breeding but just are more flexible about what new blood they bring in to improve their line?


I think the lines are well established and new blood/studs are still from the same lines, it's not a guessing game, same as any good breeder.


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## Ian Forbes

David Scholes said:


> When you say mixed breed, I assume you mean not registered with a confirmation oriented all breed registry? Or are they regularly mixed with other breeds and it is accepted as long as they work and have the right coloring matching either a DS or Mal?
> 
> Didn't the breed registries start at about the same time as the eugenics movements started becoming popular? *The fanaticism about keeping the blood pure seems constraining and counter productive*.


Absolutely!

If the dog is a good worker and meets the breed standard, surely it is of that breed? The purity of the bloodline should not matter (and in fact is being shown to be counterproductive).


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## Mike Schoonbrood

KNPV dogs are a breed of their own. They have been bred for so long that there are established bloodlines and trends in breeding. but because crossing does take place they can't be registered with an official registry. It's not like the guy down the road that breeds his labrador to someone elses poodle because both the dogs have the temperament they are looking for. The pedigrees aren't registered, but they can be tracked easily and most of them are complete and/or accurate. They are also still recognizable breeds. Its not like a cockapoo or something. The dogs are Mal's and Dutchies and GSD's and whatever else is being bred in KNPV, the bloodlines just aren't pure. Its not like they created the Dutch KNPV Italian Greywolf Shepherdale or something like that. Although I think that would be a really cool mix myself.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

motly what I would have said, is already said.

for pics, check my site, for bloodlines (of our dogs) check www.bloedlijnen.nl, search for van leeuwen, scherpenzeel and you'll find all my dogs incl. their bloodline and pics.

first not regristred dogs were after the world wars, no money for registering and the dog wouldn't work less with or without papers. Heyy we're dutch, remember?? :mrgreen:


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## David Scholes

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> first not regristred dogs were after the world wars, no money for registering and the dog wouldn't work less with or without papers. Heyy we're dutch, remember?? :mrgreen:


The unintended consequences of saving money appear to have actually been for the good in this case. Common sense and practicality resulting in a good end result... great working dogs. If everyone would have registered they might have been more influenced by the majority conformation breeders. Thanks everyone for the info.


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## Barrie Kirkland

I am very much interested in the DH, thanks for the article.

When my current PD is due for retiral i would like to consider a DH but dont know enough about them, plus would like to see some working. Can i ask

Do they have a natural propensity for tracking & searching like the GSD.... i should say as much as a gsd ???


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## Selena van Leeuwen

depends on their bloodline if they're stabile and good natural searchers,


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## Barrie Kirkland

As an overview in general how are they. How commonly are they used by the Dutch police and is their main function tracking or more geared to criminal work ?


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## Selena van Leeuwen

It all depensd on the bloodline... some are mals with a brindle coat, others, like ours, have different temperament.

Usually more criminal work, we don't have dual purpose dogs here (forbidden, cause of lawsuits etc.). There is a special unit for search dogs, but I haven't have very much knowledge about how many dogs are trained there.


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## Barrie Kirkland

Thanks, this is the difference in the UK general purpose dogs GSD/mals are required to be able to track(line/harness), search (off lead), property indication & do criminal work. The main remit of a GP dog is tracking/searching for person. 

Im sure a good DH could turn its hand to this task, the malis can do it


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## Jason Fox

Selena-

Can you expound on the differences one would expect to see in the dogs in your breeding program and the "typical" dutch shepherds dogs from the KNPV program? Thanks!


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## Gerry Grimwood

Jason Fox said:


> Selena-
> 
> Can you expound on the differences one would expect to see in the dogs in your breeding program and the "typical" dutch shepherds dogs from the KNPV program? Thanks!


I think you misunderstood Selena's post. I think she meant there are different temperments in the breed in general.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Gerry is right :wink: It depends all on the bloodline, more than colour of the coat.
If I compare I will always choose the traits that I like best (our own bloodline), I will not be objective enough.


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## Lee H Sternberg

I have 2 Dutchies, 1 male 16 months and 1 female 8 months old. Their temperament difference is night and day except when it comes to bitework. 

The male is very social properly introduced. He never met a dog he didn't like.

The female is on the extreme side of antisocial. If it's anybody or anything outside the pack she is ready to fight.

Taking in the account the age difference their bitework is excellent.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

:mrgreen: That's something that runs in your females bloodline on father's site :wink:


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## Barrie Kirkland

Can someone point in the direction of bloodlines suited to LE so i can do a wee bit of research 

thanks

B


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## Lee H Sternberg

It's still amazes me to see the contrast in her personality, Selena. Within the pack she is very loving and affectionate including with my 6 year old son, who she adores.

Outside the pack is, well you know, a very different story.

It has certainly been a interesting "ride" with her!:lol:


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## Barrie Kirkland

Barrie Kirkland said:


> Can someone point in the direction of bloodlines suited to LE so i can do a wee bit of research
> 
> thanks
> 
> B


Bump...anyone help me out ?


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## Jason Fox

Barrie-

I am not an authority at all, but my understanding is that Arko von Kikkert was a working police/security do in Holland. He might be a good place to start looking. He is currently owned by Mike Suttle at Logan Haus Kennels. Arko's pedigree can be found on Mike's site. This might be a good place to start looking.

Hopefully others with more knowledge about the specific bloodlines will chime in too.


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## Barrie Kirkland

Thanks Jason.. appreciate it


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## Ian Forbes

Barrie Kirkland said:


> Bump...anyone help me out ?


Have you spoken to Ian Walshaw? He might be able to point you in the right direction.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Jason Fox said:


> Barrie-
> 
> I am not an authority at all, but my understanding is that Arko von Kikkert was a working police/security do in Holland. He might be a good place to start looking. He is currently owned by Mike Suttle at Logan Haus Kennels. Arko's pedigree can be found on Mike's site. This might be a good place to start looking.
> 
> Hopefully others with more knowledge about the specific bloodlines will chime in too.


Arko was *no* working policedog here in Holland....

Dick


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Ian Forbes said:


> Have you spoken to Ian Walshaw? He might be able to point you in the right direction.


or Phil Kenyon.. (in the region of Manchester)


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## Barrie Kirkland

Yeah iknow who Ian is, however i think i would struggle to find a green dutch in the UK

however what i am looking for is info on specific proven lines , so in the future i can make a decision on where i am going to source (hopefully) a young adult for training his intial PD course. Its pie in the sky at the moment as my GSD has a few years left in her yet... but forward planning


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## Tim Martens

Barrie Kirkland said:


> Yeah iknow who Ian is, however i think i would struggle to find a green dutch in the UK
> 
> however what i am looking for is info on specific proven lines , so in the future i can make a decision on where i am going to source (hopefully) a young adult for training his intial PD course. Its pie in the sky at the moment as my GSD has a few years left in her yet... but forward planning


there just aren't enough "proven" HH lines to make any kind of a blanket statement like that. other than the van leeuwen lines, i wouldn't give a pass on any HH line. however there are many xHH's that can do police work that come from various lines. 

arko is just a PH1. again, no working police dog. BIG difference between this dog and the van leeuwen lines. typically, the van leeuwen lines produce VERY serious, VERY confident, VERY dominant dogs. dual purpose? maybe not. depends on the other half. i remember talking with dick about wibo. he said he cannot play ball with wibo because getting the ball back would a fight that he would just assume not have to deal with. doesn't mean he's not capable of it. for man work, and i mean man work, not sleeve work or suit work, the van leeuwen dogs are hard to match. 

of course even within the van leeuwen lines there are differences:

wibo: ULTRA dominant, ULTRA confident, didn't seem to have a lot of play drive or any type of an off switch. no wasted energy or motions with this dog. not the snarling, growling, pulling at the line, barking his head off type dog. just stands there and eye-phucks you, knowing he can hurt you. very eery.

spike: more of a very good dog you'd see over here. seemed to be very high in prey, but the prey was directed toward the man and not equipment. lots of the high pitched barking, pulling, etc. the things commonly associated with a "high drive" dog.

robbie: kind of in between the above two. my favorite dog. tommy son (lots of those out there). 

as for tracking.....i posted a video of a 10 week old tommy daughter tracking. pretty amazing. tommy is a pretty popular stud dog and there are lots of tommy sons and daughters, and probably grandsons/granddaughters by now. if you could get one of those type dogs, i'm sure it would do whatever you asked and you'd be pretty dang happy with it...


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## Selena van Leeuwen

@ tim, believe it or not: Wibo is easier to other known people as Spike is ;-) Spike is very well and fully trained, and Wibo wasn't yet, at the time you saw them both.

The young Tommy's (Tommy = our Rocky x Duco- Seegers daughter): it depends on motherside of the breeding. But there are a lot of them (also (grand, grand)childeren of him). 

@ Barry: Ian has bred with Tommy ( 2 or 3 litters) , Phil has a full sister of my Anne (Grietje) and a son of Grietje & Wibo. We've also a son and daughter(Dushi) of that breeding. 
Dushi will be bred to Tommy next year, Tessa (a Anne x Tommy daughter) will be bred to Wibo next year both litters are sold out, but there are coming some puppies to the States. Fot the ones who know Dutch bloodlines: both litter will be (almost equally) bred back to our Rocky and Rambo (van Rossum).

I know 1 stud in the States that comes directly from our lines, Robbie ( a full brother to our Benta and Spike), the female Lee owns is a daughter of him.


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## Erik Berg

Are there good workers also in some of the FCI-lines, like the vastenow and le dobry kennels in holland, or are these dogs not comparable with the unregistred KNPV-lines? Looks pretty good in work some of this FCI-dogs too I think. I guess the only way to have a dutchie from KNPV-lines is to get one that is also registerd in FCI, if you want to compete with the dog, at least in my country.

Barrie, there is a litter in sweden that has one male left for sale. The father is from KNPV-lines but with FCI-pedigree, he is a tommy-son and his mother is this bitch,
http://www.bloedlijnen.nl/stamboom.php?ID=8686

The mother to the litter is from ringo van de vastenow and the bitch mother is this KNPV-dog,
http://www.bloedlijnen.nl/stamboom.php?ID=4823

Any thoughts about this combination and the dogs in the peedigre, except tommy then that already been discussed, you people who know these lines well? The kennels website is,

www.vixax.com


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## Tim Martens

selena:

i was looking at the litters tab on bloedlijnen and noticed a mr. bunker litter by a female named rocky that has a lot of rambo blood in her. looks interesting. do you know this dog mr. bunker well? any relation to dick (same last name)?


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## Jim Engel

Jason Fox said:


> Gerben Kamphuis wrote a nice article describing the developement of the breed and the differences between the KNPV dogs and the FCI dogs...
> 
> http://members.home.nl/mechelaar32/hh-history.htm


 
What this is saying is that the KNPV Malinois and Dutch
Shepherds are a common gene pool with an individual
dog identified as one or the other according to appearance
and the owner's preference.

Or the preference of the American purchaser as the case
may be.

KNPV Bouviers are also well known to have some recent
Malinois crosses, and this seems to always have been
true.

None of this is meant to be negative, it just reflects the
practical Dutch Police heritage.

To my way of thinking, the FCI, AKC etc. concept of the
formal breed with the closed stud book is a total failure,
all you have to do is look at the show ring.

Throughout history, and pre history, a dog is according
to what he does, if he serves the herdsman or farmer
then he is a herding dog, if he serves the police man
he is a police dog.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Tim Martens said:


> selena:
> 
> i was looking at the litters tab on bloedlijnen and noticed a mr. bunker litter by a female named rocky that has a lot of rambo blood in her. looks interesting. do you know this dog mr. bunker well? any relation to dick (same last name)?


Hi Tim,

The combination is interesting indeed.
We know mr.bunker. What do you like to know about him.
And no, Ronald is not related to me (exept his love for the Van Leeuwen-bloodline perhaps.... )

Dick


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## Tim Martens

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Hi Tim,
> 
> The combination is interesting indeed.
> We know mr.bunker. What do you like to know about him.
> And no, Ronald is not related to me (exept his love for the Van Leeuwen-bloodline perhaps.... )
> 
> Dick


if that makes him related, then you can call me Tim van Leeuwen!

as for mr. bunker, i've only seen some short videos of him on the website. can't tell too much about him. does he show the typical van leeuwen traits (strong, confident, dominant)?


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Also the FCI and KNPV Dutch Shepherd come from the same genepool.(like the mal and DS) 
The FCI DS lost track years and years ago (begin/half of the 20th century). The breed was not used for KNPV anymore. Exterior was becomming important. 
We all know what happens to a breed when how it looks is becomming important.....:? 

The KNPV DS was stil used for (KNPV)work, so health and working ability was number one.

Because of that(working ability), are there al lot of mixes between the Mal and DS. 
Differences in caracter are more bloodline-related than in having differences between a Mal or DS.(This also counts for the mal)
But if you have a DS who is a DS in more generations, there are some slight differences in caracter.

You see nowadays that people are using the KNPV-DS agian in the FCI lines again. (registered or not registered) . Wrong of that is when its not registered it is almost impossible to breed with in a responceble way, not knowing what is REALY the right bloodline in a dog. So you see a lot "Micky Mouse-pedigrees" around, to use the KNPV-DS again in the breeding-program of the FCI-DS.

(glad we breed without FCI-pedigree... )

All and all, I think that makes the KNPV-dog special. Just bread on working capacity and health as a policedog. (Dutch standarts)
Not having anything to do with the organisations, responceble for breed-standarts and exterior. 
Just a clean working dog. 

regards,
Dick


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Tim Martens said:


> if that makes him related, then you can call me Tim van Leeuwen!
> 
> Hahahaha. So we are related...:smile: .
> Martens sounds Dutch/Belg. also... maybe that is the reaon for your interest in Mal/DS....
> 
> as for mr. bunker, i've only seen some short videos of him on the website. can't tell too much about him. does he show the typical van leeuwen traits (strong, confident, dominant)?
> 
> He is a strong, confident dog, but more Robbie-like than Wibo-like. (I'm sure you know what i mean by that)


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## Tim Martens

There maybe a situation coming in my career where i would be interested in a pup (in a few months). If this happens I'm sure I will have many many more questions for you and maybe a trip back over there.

Tim


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Tim Martens said:


> There maybe a situation coming in my career where i would be interested in a pup (in a few months). If this happens I'm sure I will have many many more questions for you and maybe a trip back over there.
> 
> Tim


You know, your welcome 

Dick


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## Ian Forbes

Jim Engel said:


> To my way of thinking, the FCI, AKC etc. concept of the
> formal breed with the closed stud book is a total failure,
> all you have to do is look at the show ring.
> 
> Throughout history, and pre history, a dog is according
> to what he does, if he serves the herdsman or farmer
> then he is a herding dog, if he serves the police man
> he is a police dog.


Spot on!


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## Barrie Kirkland

Just catching up with this thread as it moves on, i seem to understand the distinction now. What threw me was folk talk about knpv PH1 etc and i realise in essence they are sport dogs they have never been deployed as police dogs, 

For me its narrowing down lines of dogs that may possess the miriad of raw ingredients i would need, as i said its not a pup i would be after , just need to get out there and see dogs i suppose


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## Tim Martens

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> @ tim, believe it or not: Wibo is easier to other known people as Spike is ;-) Spike is very well and fully trained, and Wibo wasn't yet, at the time you saw them both.
> 
> The young Tommy's (Tommy = our Rocky x Duco- Seegers daughter): it depends on motherside of the breeding. But there are a lot of them (also (grand, grand)childeren of him).
> 
> @ Barry: Ian has bred with Tommy ( 2 or 3 litters) , Phil has a full sister of my Anne (Grietje) and a son of Grietje & Wibo. We've also a son and daughter(Dushi) of that breeding.
> Dushi will be bred to Tommy next year, Tessa (a Anne x Tommy daughter) will be bred to Wibo next year both litters are sold out, but there are coming some puppies to the States. Fot the ones who know Dutch bloodlines: both litter will be (almost equally) bred back to our Rocky and Rambo (van Rossum).
> *
> I know 1 stud in the States that comes directly from our lines, Robbie ( a full brother to our Benta and Spike), the female Lee owns is a daughter of him*.


is this BRN 3457? is that the Robbie in the US?


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Yes, at the pic on bloedlijnen.nl he was about 11 mo. Dick bought him back after the divorce of the owner bloedlijnen.nl stated. But he also had Spike, Robbie was sold to Lars Chylwik (Haveringens' kennel in Sweden) and if they couldn't manage him, Dick and he agreed Robbie would sold back to Dick. Agreement was made 'cause Dick wasn't sure they could manage him.

Never happened...as you can see...He turned up in the US...without telling Dick (us). We heard after a year or 2 he was sold, didn't know to who. Now we know...


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## Tim Martens

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Yes, at the pic on bloedlijnen.nl he was about 11 mo. Dick bought him back after the divorce of the owner bloedlijnen.nl stated. But he also had Spike, Robbie was sold to Lars Chylwik (Haveringens' kennel in Sweden) and if they couldn't manage him, Dick and he agreed Robbie would sold back to Dick. Agreement was made 'cause Dick wasn't sure they could manage him.
> 
> Never happened...as you can see...He turned up in the US...without telling Dick (us). We heard after a year or 2 he was sold, didn't know to who. Now we know...


but that BRN shows roel schotkamp as the handler. isn't he one of dick's handlers at rotterdam?


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## Selena van Leeuwen

No, Roel was a handler with Dick in Almere. Gregg bought Rombo by Roel. You met him and Sandra, when you were looking at the black dog of Sandra.


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## Lee H Sternberg

The breeder here in the US, who purchased Robbie, told me that he purchased 2 dogs from Lars Chylwik. Robbie was one of them. The other was a female.

The US breeder was told Robbie was too much dog for Lars Chylwik.

For obvious reasons, the breeder-buyer here said Chylwik never mentioned a agreement to sell Robbie back to Bloedijnen.:twisted:


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## Selena van Leeuwen

That would be us as breeder:wink: the bloedlijnen site is a database with bloodlines/pedigrees of working (KNPV) dogs, something like the GSD pedigree site.

Well at least we now know where Robbie is and how/what he is doing, better to know nothing. We have had some e-mail contact with your breeder :wink:


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## Jerry Lyda

Where is Robbie? I reason I'm asking is that I know of a Robbie That works as a PSD. Could this be the same one? He was purchased over there but I don't know who.


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## Lee H Sternberg

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> That would be us as breeder:wink: the bloedlijnen site is a database with bloodlines/pedigrees of working (KNPV) dogs, something like the GSD pedigree site.
> 
> Well at least we now know where Robbie is and how/what he is doing, better to know nothing. We have had some e-mail contact with your breeder :wink:



Hi Selena - I understand. I'm glad you finally know. I became friends with the breeder over the past couple of years. He told me about the email contacts. I'm glad I played a part in you finding out what happened to Robbie.

I'm proud to have a dog out of your bloodlines. Both my dogs from this breeder are doing great. She is a terror.:razz:

He is a good guy and a responsible breeder of some real descent Mals and Dutchies.


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## Jerry Lyda

Sorry different Robbie.


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## Christopher Jones

We have a number of KNPV Dutchies that we imported into Australia. We have an Arko Son going back to Tommy Luijken. We have a female Dutchie who is a daughter of Bono Pegge going back on Rocco Mulder. We also imported frozen semen from Tommy and Rudie Pegge. Just now we have got semen from Wibos brother Carlos van Vos.
There is alot of talk about linebreeding on Dicks lines, and this is for sure a good thing. But one of the strengths of a dog like Arko or Ringo is that they are linebred on a dog most people in the KNPV consider the best producer ever in Rambo Rossum. I understand that Selenas dad owned and trialed Rambo. 
For us we wanted to bring in five lines and try to inbreed on them.
1. Rocky van Leeuwen
2. Rambo van Rossum
3. Duco 2 Seegers
4. Arno Kliene Schaars
5. Catro Jensen

Another line we are interested in is Breston Massop.
A friend of ours imported a Black Mali female from Wibo and going back to Benta. Nice female.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

the black mali from your friend is already linebred on Rambo and Rocky-Robbie. Mido Verbeek, father of Grietje, is linebred on Rambo, Wibo also on fathers side. Benta is inbred on Rocky-Robbie and Wibo is a Rocky- grandson  
We have a litter brother (Angus- black) & sister (Dushi-brindle) of that female.


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## Christopher Jones

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> the black mali from your friend is already linebred on Rambo and Rocky-Robbie. Mido Verbeek, father of Grietje, is linebred on Rambo, Wibo also on fathers side. Benta is inbred on Rocky-Robbie and Wibo is a Rocky- grandson
> We have a litter brother (Angus- black) & sister (Dushi-brindle) of that female.


Yes, she has a nice bloodline. I dont know much about Mido. His bloodlines I know but the dog himself I havent heard much of. I guess for you to breed to him he must of been similar in type to your xhh's.


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## Gerry Grimwood

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> the black mali from your friend is already linebred on Rambo and Rocky-Robbie. Mido Verbeek, father of Grietje, is linebred on Rambo, Wibo also on fathers side. Benta is inbred on Rocky-Robbie and Wibo is a Rocky- grandson
> We have a litter brother (Angus- black) & sister (Dushi-brindle) of that female.


The Wibo x Dushi breeding will be a good one I think, will you keep a pup from this ?


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Gerry Grimwood said:


> The Wibo x Dushi breeding will be a good one I think, will you keep a pup from this ?


Yes Gerry, we will.
We'll keep the first choice female for our breeding program. 

regards,
Dick


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## Christopher Jones

Back onto the topic of KNPV vs FCI, the pedigreed Dutchies are nowhere near the quality of the KNPV bloodlined dogs. They have lower drive, less fight and weaker nerves. The KNPV dogs also are alot bigger.
There are more fake pedigreed Dutchies kicking around now so hopefully the pedigreed dogs get better.


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## mike suttle

Hey Chris,
How is your Arko son doing?
A little birdie told me that Arko has a couple Dutchie sons in Holland with an FCI pedigree on them now:-$ 
Maybe we will soon see FCI litters with a little better working traits than we are used to seeing now.
I think Basta Bazzy is not a bad working dog for an FCI Dutchie.


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## Christopher Jones

mike suttle said:


> Hey Chris,
> How is your Arko son doing?
> A little birdie told me that Arko has a couple Dutchie sons in Holland with an FCI pedigree on them now:-$
> Maybe we will soon see FCI litters with a little better working traits than we are used to seeing now.
> I think Basta Bazzy is not a bad working dog for an FCI Dutchie.


Yes I hear Bazzy is quite the "FCI" Dutchie. 

My Boy is doing really well. I couldnt of asked for a better dog. He is big, strong, big head, super nerves, extreme drive _and _a pleasure to live with. Excellent in the kennel. Social but turns on to any challange civil or sport. He is pretty hard to put control into as he doesnt so much want to please me but please himself. And add to that massive pain tollerance and extreme blind drive and hes fun to train. :-o
He blew through innotek level 12 at 10 months and his son has just blown through level 120 on dogtra at 10 months. 
He doesnt have the civil of his father, but Gerben says I should be thankful of that. lol
Heres a clip of him with Gerben in Holland at 12 weeks of age. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zn723iL_3rQ&feature=channel

Hows the old man?


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## mike suttle

Christopher Jones said:


> Yes I hear Bazzy is quite the "FCI" Dutchie.
> 
> My Boy is doing really well. I couldnt of asked for a better dog. He is big, strong, big head, super nerves, extreme drive _and _a pleasure to live with. Excellent in the kennel. Social but turns on to any challange civil or sport. He is pretty hard to put control into as he doesnt so much want to please me but please himself. And add to that massive pain tollerance and extreme blind drive and hes fun to train. :-o
> He blew through innotek level 12 at 10 months and his son has just blown through level 120 on dogtra at 10 months.
> He doesnt have the civil of his father, but Gerben says I should be thankful of that. lol
> Heres a clip of him with Gerben in Holland at 12 weeks of age.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zn723iL_3rQ&feature=channel
> 
> Hows the old man?


Glad to hear you are so happy with your Arko son. I get feedback like yours from almost everyone who has a son from Arko. I know your Boy is a really super nice dog for sure. Gerben told me he was extremely nice.

Arko is doing fine, still grumpy as ever. He and I get along just fine, but Gerben is right, be thankful your Boy does not have the social aggression of Arko, it is a HUGE liability.


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## Matt Grosch

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Also the FCI and KNPV Dutch Shepherd come from the same genepool.(like the mal and DS)
> The FCI DS lost track years and years ago (begin/half of the 20th century). The breed was not used for KNPV anymore. Exterior was becomming important.
> We all know what happens to a breed when how it looks is becomming important.....:?
> 
> The KNPV DS was stil used for (KNPV)work, so health and working ability was number one.
> 
> Because of that(working ability), are there al lot of mixes between the Mal and DS.
> Differences in caracter are more bloodline-related than in having differences between a Mal or DS.(This also counts for the mal)
> But if you have a DS who is a DS in more generations, there are some slight differences in caracter.
> 
> You see nowadays that people are using the KNPV-DS agian in the FCI lines again. (registered or not registered) . Wrong of that is when its not registered it is almost impossible to breed with in a responceble way, not knowing what is REALY the right bloodline in a dog. So you see a lot "Micky Mouse-pedigrees" around, to use the KNPV-DS again in the breeding-program of the FCI-DS.
> 
> (glad we breed without FCI-pedigree... )
> 
> All and all, I think that makes the KNPV-dog special. Just bread on working capacity and health as a policedog. (Dutch standarts)
> Not having anything to do with the organisations, responceble for breed-standarts and exterior.
> Just a clean working dog.
> 
> regards,
> Dick





"But if you have a DS who is a DS in more generations, there are some slight differences in caracter."


In looking into the issue, this is the first Ive seen other than that they are the same. Dick or anyone else able to elaborate?


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## mike suttle

Matt Grosch said:


> "But if you have a DS who is a DS in more generations, there are some slight differences in caracter."
> 
> 
> In looking into the issue, this is the first Ive seen other than that they are the same. Dick or anyone else able to elaborate?


 In my opinion they are the same within litters whether they are tan or brindle, but for sure the litters who come down from higher % of Malis or Dutchies are different. This is the case with any litter from any breed, it falls back to the type of bloodlines. I will never say that a Mali from one litter is the same as a Dutchie from another litter for sure because if the lines are totally different then the dogs should also be totally different. But within the same litter I see no difference in the way the tan puppies act compared to the brindle ones. The traits of a puppy are determined by the individual puppy in each litter, not his color. In my last several litters I have gotten tan, black, and brindle puppies. In one litter it was a tan puppy who was the best, in a litter of mostly brindle puppies, in another litter it was the only brindle puppy in the litter who was clearly the best in a litter of 10 puppies. In my last litter where the mother was 100% NVBK Mali (no brindle anywhere in the mothers pedigree) and every puppy was brindle. The best puppy that has ever came from my kennel was a tan colored Arko son from Arko and Djenna.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

we DO see a difference in our own bloodline, if there are more mali's in the bloodline (e.g. by Anne and in her litters, she comes from a outcross with a black mali) the puppies are different. The puppies with 4-5-6-7 generations are more calm stabile, even in a litter with mali's and brindles, the brindles do show more of this trait than the black mali's.


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## mike suttle

So are you saying that if you breed Wibo X Tessa for example and you get 6 Dutchies and 3 Malis in a litter for example that the puppies of a different color in that same litter will have a different character?

I trust and respect your opinion as a breeder and trainer, but I can not say that I see a difference here in my tan puppies vs my brindle puppies from the same litter. In some litters it will be a brindle pup who is the calmest and most stabil pup in the litter, and in the next litter it may be the tan pup who show this trait stronger than the rest.
I would love to come and visit you guys in September if I can make it over there for the Championships. It would be a pleasure to meet you and train with you one day.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Yes, with the Tessa x Wibo the mali's were slightly different from the brindles. In the Anne litter the difference was even better visible.
Kristin and Harold saw both litters, maybe the can tell better than I do what the difference exactly were. I can't really find the right words.

Would be great to meet you if your here in Holland. We're going to be on the championships for the first time in 3 yrs on september 6th.


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