# What do you think ?



## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

A few weeks ago during a training course I was blindfolded (make all the jokes you want) then with my dogs lead in my left hand and my right arm on someone’s shoulder I was lead to where the exercise was supposed to start. As we got close to the start location my dog started to walk more directly in front of me to the point of being up against the front of my left leg. He never does this. I don’t like my dog heeling close to me simply because I don’t want to trip over him, he typically stays at least a foot or two from my left side. If I needed I can tell him to “get close” and he will move in a little more. 
I got the go ahead to get going with the exercise, I was taught in the past to slide my front foot forward then slide my rear foot and so on when moving in the dark/ blindfolded to help avoid tripping. As I slid my front foot forward there was a one ft deep, two foot wide drainage run dug in the ground. I got through it and went on with the exercise. Later that night as we all were speaking of things over dinner the trainer brought up if I noticed my dog tried to warn me of the ditch. I thought back and made a face. I explained that I’m not convinced even though my dog never does this stuff. He was surprised I was a not a total believer. He was implying that a dog who never had any training in working with the blind etc. all of a sudden knew I could not see and did not want me to fall in to the drainage ditch. *What are your beliefs and experiences in this type of stuff? *Everyone that was there, all more experienced than me certainly had no doubts about it. 
So after the conversation I was being a bit more aware of trying to see this type of behavior. When swimming with the dog and family the next day at the ocean my six year old was playing in the small breakers. As one was rolling in she gave a playing scream, I watched the dog look at her then hurried to place himself sideways in front of the small breaker. He did literally reduce the force of the small wave that was to hit her. And pissed her off doing so, Besides the point.. but I am convinced he thought he was doing the right thing this was clearly not a coincidence. 
We all heard/ read the stories “dog saves family” , for example I have a friend on a island in SC with many cotton mouth snakes on this island. They have a Jack Russell “who ran in front of and saved their kids” from a cotton mouth in there yard. It got bit but lived. Then only a few months later the dog would not let company out the front door as they were leaving. Only to jump out the door first and bit the snake on the dark front porch, and got bit again and lived. I was told this by the person believing it happened, the dog has the scares but I am not sure of the intent of the dog. Did the dog really know/think it was “saving” or was it just snake fighting for the fun of it? 
 What first hand stories/ videos of a dog doing these types of things do you have…. Is it blown out of proportion?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Just my thoughts on the JRT. Having had and hunted with many different terriers over the years I can only think this JRT your talking about was doing what terriers do. It saw something move and it wanted to kill it. 
Nothing altruistic in it. It's just a terrier!
I've seen a number of working terriers that had to be retired because of developing a "need" to kill skunks, snakes, stick pigs, etc. One of my hunting partners had a JRT that has taken Copperhead bites 3-4 different times. It just likes to kill snakes!
These dogs weren't trying to save the handler from the skunks, snakes, etc. They just needed to be terriers and kill something.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

> He was implying that a dog who never had any training in working with the blind etc. all of a sudden knew I could not see and did not want me to fall in to the drainage ditch. *What are your beliefs and experiences in this type of stuff?*


*

*Well, I believe that Deja would not think twice about dragging me through the drainage ditch full speed ahead. Bitch. :lol: Naccia, I'm not really sure of. It would depend (in both situations) upon what was going on around us.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Just my thoughts on the JRT. Having had and hunted with many different terriers over the years I can only think this JRT your talking about was doing what terriers do. It saw something move and it wanted to kill it.
> Nothing altruistic in it. It's just a terrier!
> I've seen a number of working terriers that had to be retired because of developing a "need" to kill skunks, snakes, stick pigs, etc. One of my hunting partners had a JRT that has taken Copperhead bites 3-4 different times. It just likes to kill snakes!
> These dogs weren't trying to save the handler from the skunks, snakes, etc. They just needed to be terriers and kill something.


 
In your opinion any chance my dog was trying to warn me of a ditch?


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Interesting topic.

I can't answer for what you observed in your dog. However, form my expereince, I know of UNTRAINED dogs that

Predicted and alerted the owner to seizures. This dog was an adopted APBT shelter dog that went on to become a Seizure-Alert Service Dog.

Braced to support the handler's weight, pushed against the handler when the handler experienced a seizure-like episode. This dog is now deceased and the handler is looking for a Mobility Service Dog.

Alerted to unusual handler behaviors with repeated nose nedges. This dog went on to be trained as a Psychiatric Service Dog, but washed out for an unrelated behavior problem.

But then we hear about the stories of a "heroic" service dog that "saves" a blind man from traffic - and find out later that the dog was freaked out by a close vehicle, jumped to the side and knoked the handler over. I think these sorts of stories are becoming less common and the training methods for guide dogs are training. "Intellegent disobedience" used to be taught through fear learning. Now there is quite a bit of debate on the topic.


It is what it is. Test it out a few more times and see what happens!


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Maybe your hesitant steps alerted the dog to the fact that you were unsure but I have trouble with the theory of his knowing you couldn't see.

Climbing up a hill the woods once, I encountered a lot of ice on the path. My dog was as usual a few yards in front of me but suddenly stopped and waited until I carefully reached him. After that, he walked very slowly and kept stopping. One tap on his rump made him move again. It steadied me up until we got off the icy part.I gave him no verbal commands and instinctively tapped him as if to say I'm ok to move on.

I can't beleive dogs can develop morals and become saviours.

My friend's daughter aged about 9 wanted to try my Briard out on the lead. I watched in amazement as the puller of all pullers became a perfect gentleman and walked sedately at her isde. It could be he sensed her "feebleness". It could also quite well be that he wasn't overstruck on being handled by her.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I think he was going around the front of you to see WTF the guy leading you was doing. I also do not remember you talking about a control exercise where you just walked around blindfolded normally. If the dog had done this repeatedly, then sure. One time ??? Stop training with Walt Disney cronies.

I am sure that there are dogs out there that do stuff on purpose, but this test sounds bs emillio.........I mean Chris. LOL Had to bust your balls a bit.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Braced to support the handler's weight, pushed against the handler when the handler experienced a seizure-like episode.

Had good opposition reflex. NEXT MYTH PLEASE.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I think he was going around the front of you to see WTF the guy leading you was doing. I also do not remember you talking about a control exercise where you just walked around blindfolded normally. If the dog had done this repeatedly, then sure. One time ??? Stop training with Walt Disney cronies.
> 
> I am sure that there are dogs out there that do stuff on purpose, but this test sounds bs emillio.........I mean Chris. LOL Had to bust your balls a bit.


 
this was the 1st time I was blind folded with my dog…. I got to admit it did help teach me to trust my dog more on a short track, rather me telling my dog where I think we should be going. And after I was blind folded they said if they could just put a gag in my mouth I would be an even better dog handler… true story… the worst part is they were right about it! .... that Elmo thing was cold!!!


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

My dogs would dump me in the ditch and then jump on me cause it'd be fun for them


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Braced to support the handler's weight, pushed against the handler when the handler experienced a seizure-like episode.
> 
> Had good opposition reflex. NEXT MYTH PLEASE.


Jeff, I'm not talking about the dog's motivation - just the behavior. The dog might just be totally freaked out, nervy or something and the response was rewarded. I'm not going all Disney on you. Just noting some cases of beneficial behaviors that dogs performed without being traiend to do.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I think he was going around the front of you to see WTF the guy leading you was doing. I also do not remember you talking about a control exercise where you just walked around blindfolded normally. If the dog had done this repeatedly, then sure. One time ??? Stop training with Walt Disney cronies.
> 
> I am sure that there are dogs out there that do stuff on purpose, but this test sounds bs emillio.........I mean Chris. LOL Had to bust your balls a bit.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

The exercise was not to see if the dog stopped me from the ditch… it was to get me to follow my dog on a track instead of me telling him where to go. It did help, I did get something out of it… then I was told I ran my best track blindfolded and the next thing they could do to improve my handler skills was to put a gag in my mouth…. That Elmo thing was cold!!!


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Anne Vaini said:


> Jeff, I'm not talking about the dog's motivation - just the behavior. The dog might just be totally freaked out, nervy or something and the response was rewarded. I'm not going all Disney on you. Just noting some cases of beneficial behaviors that dogs performed without being traiend to do.


I think he meant I was Disney…. All I got to say is show me the video ! 
I think you pissed her off Jeff…


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

On a regular basis I shut her down just to keep her reasonable. Like training a dog for a retard...wait....autistic kid. Probably pick a pit to do it. :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> On a regular basis I shut her down just to keep her reasonable. Like training a dog for a retard...wait....autistic kid. Probably pick a pit to do it. :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:


I was trying to take some of the heat off you so you did not look like a total scum bag that picks on a woman who trains dogs for the handicapped. Sorry for trying.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Chris McDonald said:


> In your opinion any chance my dog was trying to warn me of a ditch?


 
Chris, it can happen.
When my daughters were growing up of my dogs back then, a GSD x Dane, wouldn't allow the girls to walk out in the street or into the driveway. He would actively block them with his body. When they were old enough to walk to school by their selves he had fits when they pushed hm out of the way. 
Instinct? Maybe, but he was also trained to stay withing the boundries of the front yard. It could be that he was just reinforcing his own boundries. 
I know first hand of a couple of "Lassie come home" type scenarios.
These things can happen but it's really hard to judge based on a one time behaviour.
Do they do these things because they love us...or just because that's what theyre hard wired to do? ;-)


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Chris, it can happen.
> When my daughters were growing up of my dogs back then, a GSD x Dane, wouldn't allow the girls to walk out in the street or into the driveway. He would actively block them with his body. When they were old enough to walk to school by their selves he had fits when they pushed hm out of the way.
> Instinct? Maybe, but he was also trained to stay withing the boundries of the front yard. It could be that he was just reinforcing his own boundries.
> I know first hand of a couple of "Lassie come home" type scenarios.
> ...


I dunno but horses have been known to exibit these types of helping behaviours too and we don't breed them for those traits.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Michelle Kehoe said:


> I dunno but horses have been known to exibit these types of helping behaviours too and we don't breed them for those traits.


 
Horses have to be nice cause they know they'll get sold to the French if they don't. :grin: :wink:


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Maybe I should mention that to our mare...


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: I was trying to take some of the heat off you so you did not look like a total scum bag 

Yeah, I know, but equal rights has got to be across the board, not just sometimes. The fact she is a girl should never be taken into consideration.

I was discussing training with the blind girl, and people were telling me to be nice. That kind of stuff is silly. It is treating her different, and I know that would piss me off. She just can't see, it has nothing to do with her brain, which seemed quite capable, considering most of what WE do is visual in dog training. That puts her in the smart as **** catagory, so why not discuss things at full speed ????


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

I was discussing training with the blind girl, and people were telling me to be nice. That kind of stuff is silly. It is treating her different, and I know that would piss me off. She just can't see, it has nothing to do with her brain, which seemed quite capable, considering most of what WE do is visual in dog training. That puts her in the smart as **** catagory, so why not discuss things at full speed ????[/quote]

When you were talking to the blind person did you raise your voice to make sure she heard you


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