# Help with holding dumbbell needed



## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

I am having trouble with my dog Zak holding the dumbell until I say out. He will retrieve it and bring it to me but reuses to sit and hold it. He will dump it at my feet and stand there looking up at me. He will sit and hold it until the cows come home but I cannot get him to connect it to the retrieve. I have found he can be very stubborn with this and I cannot be forceful as this causes him to shut down. Anyone have any ideas how to help him connect all the dots. He is 14 months old and an intact male that normally wants to please although lately it seems he is becoming stubborn or that he is testing me. I have held off neutering because I want to see how he develops out. He has his ASCA and AKC CD and his Novice rally titles. This weekend he will be in advanced rally at an AKC show. Any help will be so appreciated.


----------



## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Vicki I think he starting to "feel his oats" more than butt heads with you. 

There are several ways to do what your looking for. Can you explain how you have trained till now?


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

This doesn't sound like "stubborn" to me: _He will sit and hold it until the cows come home but I cannot get him to connect it to the retrieve. _

Sounds like not understanding. 


Second this: _ Can you explain how you have trained till now?_


----------



## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

Exactly but I am not sure how to help him put it all together. I have been training him at home in Open by reading several training books. I have done as they said teaching him to take it, hold it etc. He has always been a great retriever of toys and he easily goes to retrieve the dumbbell. I have tried to tell him hold it as he approaches me but we just havent made that connection with the actual retrieve. And yet I can tell him to hold the dumbbell any other time and he will. This is where we need help.


----------



## Ashley Allstun (Aug 8, 2009)

Have you tried having him sit in front and take/hold the dumbell, then move back a step or two and call him to front rather than putting it all together at once?


----------



## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

Brian maybe you are right as lately he seems more "manly" and at the last show it was a bit harder to keep his attention on me when the air was full of so many inticing smells . I have not found a class in my area that has a good open instructor so I have been reading many books on open and been trying to accomplish this on my own. He has everything down except holding that dumbbell until he sits and I say out. This is frustrating to me as I do not know how to help him put it together -the retrieve and holding that dumbbell.


----------



## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

Ashley no I have not tried that. He will sit in front, hold the dumbell and when I say out will immediately release it. Why didnt I think of that? Thank you so much-we will give that a try!! This is why I joined-you all have so much experience with training and Zak and I are novices trying to get it right. Thank you Thank you! I will let you know if that helps.


----------



## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

vicki dickey said:


> Brian maybe you are right as lately he seems more "manly" and at the last show it was a bit harder to keep his attention on me when the air was full of so many inticing smells . I have not found a class in my area that has a good open instructor so I have been reading many books on open and been trying to accomplish this on my own. He has everything down except holding that dumbbell until he sits and I say out. This is frustrating to me as I do not know how to help him put it together -the retrieve and holding that dumbbell.


bit harder to keep his attention on me <<<< this is muy importante as they say in the mexican food restaruants lolo. There is a lot here (on the forum) about teaching handler focus. In order for you to communicate with the dog you have to be more interesting than the bush he wants to run and pee on.

Break the training down into pieces 
teach him what "the hold" is
after he understands that put it together with the retrieve. Teach them seperately then put them together. They have a fancy term for it but I forget what it is. 

Im assuming your using marker training? Or?


----------



## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

kinda sounds like he does not understand or have a solid "hold" and cares more about retrieving the object and drops it knowing that's how you will throw it again (which is rewarding to him).

I would go back to teaching and proofing the "hold" away from the retrieve, then introduce distance gradually, eventually introducing a full retrieve, but all literally one step at a time as long as you can maintain a successful hold. 

You said he knows hold and you have tried telling him hold as he approaches but that didn't work. If he knows his hold that should have worked. He doesn't know it well enough yet to be able to generalize and apply that command in various circumstances. Holding during hold training session is different then holding in motion while all his instincts are telling him to bring it and drop it.


----------



## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

I do not know what you mean by marker training?


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Are you using "clicker" training, whether it's with a clicker or verbal marker?

Marker training is an umbrella term that encompasses both.


----------



## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

Vicki I think it would really help if you just explain to every one how you have trained this so far. There are many different ways to train a hold and the retrieve and hold.


----------



## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

teach him to hold the dumbell while walking, instead of sitting, most dogs can sit and hold but if they have to heel and hold the dumbell they drop it, so teach him to walk with it in his mouth, but NOT by retriving first


----------



## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Tammy St. Louis said:


> teach him to hold the dumbell while walking, instead of sitting, most dogs can sit and hold but if they have to heel and hold the dumbell they drop it, so teach him to walk with it in his mouth, but NOT by retriving first


A good way to do this is to simply hold the dumbell in his mouth with the dog in front of you. Start slowly stepping backwards and do this until you can walk at a pretty good clip. We do an excercise with our dogs we call "push" we teach the dog to come in with his nose and push against you and you move backwards almost like a reverse heel. The "push" thing can be valuable in lots of scenarios.... Just an idea!


----------



## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Interesting ideas . When I had hunting dogs I force fetch . Had dog by collar and on short leash , earpinch and had him fetch the dumbbell or bird . Said hold and gave small(sometimes bigger) tap on bottom of jaw if the dog started to loosen up . Once he was holding well and tested by trying to pull object out of mouth and having him hold firmly , I on a very short leash maybe 1'1/2 of slack started healing dog at side while having him hold the object and tapping jaw if the dog loosened grip . I would the progress to letting more lead out while having the dog hold . If it dropped the object I earpinch the dog to the object well saying fetch and then hold once it got the object in it's mouth . After that on retrieves I simply earpinched the dog to the object and worked on the hold if it descided not to deliver it to hand . That was just for the average Lab working on birds though no sport or AKC stuff .


----------



## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Jim Nash said:


> Interesting ideas . When I had hunting dogs I force fetch . Had dog by collar and on short leash , earpinch and had him fetch the dumbbell or bird . Said hold and gave small(sometimes bigger) tap on bottom of jaw if the dog started to loosen up . Once he was holding well and tested by trying to pull object out of mouth and having him hold firmly , I on a very short leash maybe 1'1/2 of slack started healing dog at side while having him hold the object and tapping jaw if the dog loosened grip . I would the progress to letting more lead out while having the dog hold . If it dropped the object I earpinch the dog to the object well saying fetch and then hold once it got the object in it's mouth . After that on retrieves I simply earpinched the dog to the object and worked on the hold if it descided not to deliver it to hand . That was just for the average Lab working on birds though no sport or AKC stuff .


Jim that is the way we taught our hunting dogs too. It works lol....


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

What Ashley said!

Jim, I used the ear pinch for years with most of my terriers. 
Now I'm in a better place. hummmmmmmmmmmmmm!
Burn a little incense, do a little chant and give a few cookies. 
Marker training has done wonders for the retrieve but my thumbnail is still loaded! :twisted:


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I think what Tammy said about heeling the dog whilst it's carrying the dumbell is good. I did this with my younger GSD after I realised (a little too late) that he wasn't going to retrieve like the others.

I held the db in front of him and waited until he'd taken hold of it - he didn't want to at first. Then I heeled slowly and said "out" and took it from him. I repeated this many times, speeding it up and then giving the command to "sit" at my side and "out" it. Next step, went in front of him when we stopped.
Then I threw it out as far as we could reach it on the long line, ran with him to it - called "bring" and brought him in front of me.

He chewed on it at first but, as with no other dog of mine, he stared intensesly at the kibble I had in my mouth and after a while I said "out" and he gave it up.

The Briard who had no trouble with retrieving, got a sharp tap on the nose once or twice and this stopped it.

A lot of dogs have trouble with the retrieve due to the fact that they will go out happily for the dumbell but when they bring it back also happily - they get scolded for dropping it, chewing it, not sitting straight, etc. and then we wonder why they come in as though they've got arthritis in all four legs.

A way to stop this maybe would be to make the dog sit, place db in it's mouth, retreat a few yards, and call them in. Making them wait until calling can heighten the desire to come in quickly.


----------

