# discussion: "Coercive and Compulsive"



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

from http://www.WorkingDogForum.com/vBulletin/f9/operant-conditioning-koehler-thread-26043/#post374987




http://www.policek-9magazine.com/articles/q&a-with-wendell-nope/

_
Question:_

Can your experts outline the differences between compulsive and coercive styles of dog training? I hear a lot about both from people who are promoting their own training (usually for money). I have been a handler for about 20 years and truly believe that it takes a combination of the two to put a well-trained dog on the street. Do the trainers at Police K-9 Magazine believe that one method is better and can a single style be used for all dogs?




_Wendell Nope responds:_

Your 20 years of experience have not failed you. You are correct, in that the optimal training regimen is a combination of Coercive and Compulsive procedures. Coercive training produces the flashiest and most energetic performance, while Compulsive training produces the most reliable performance. Each dog has its own "ratio" of these two concepts that will produce the optimal result in the dog. For example, a very Handler-sensitive dog will perform much better if a higher ratio of Coercive training is employed, while a rock-head Malinois is likely to perform better with a higher ratio of Compulsive training. At first glance, it would seem that Coercive training is the ideal, in that it is lower-stress and produces zestier performance. It is important to remember, however, that Coercive training is only effective as long as the drive satisfaction the dog receives from the "reward" is greater than whatever might be tempting the dog to break training. For example, using a toy (only) to encourage the dog to Heel properly may not work if a close-by cat suddenly spits at the dog and then runs. In this case, the dog also needs to know the Handler will enforce correct behavior (via Compulsion) if the dog breaks the Heel command to chase the cat.

Coercive training suggests that the Handler is trying to get the dog to "self-discover" that a certain behavior (i.e., Heeling) produces a certain reward (i.e., a toy). Compulsive training suggests that the Handler employs force of some type to enforce a desired behavior, then a reward is given once the behavior is exhibited by the dog. We all understand, I think, what Compulsive training is, so I'll concentrate on Coercive training and its good-bad points. Coercive training is often playful, while Compulsive training is often forceful. Notice the examples in the accompanying photos. In the Coercive photos, the Handlers are using playful body contact and even toys to coax the dogs into staying in the Heel position, and the dogs seem happy. This training is very-very effective, especially in the beginning stages of a training course.

The time will come, however, when the Patrol Dog in training needs to understand that strict obedience is mandatory. As a transition is made from playful & no-temptation "Heeling" to street-worthy and distraction-filled "Heeling" the Handler may still maintain a high level of efficiency is s/he will maintain a minimum 5-to-1 ratio of praise vs. correction. Give at least five times as much praise as the amount of correction ... simply put. This will keep the attitude in most dogs high.

So my final answer is: neither style is better than the other and one system cannot be used for all dogs, however, a combination of both CAN be used for ALL dogs.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Wow, talk about a terms war. 

T


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

so all these positive only people are coercing the dog? 

j/k ...it's past my bed time


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Coercive would actually best fit the Webster explanation of correction dog training.
Compulsive aka Webster is not being able to control a desire that is to hard to resist. 

Does "compulsive" mean those trainers can't control themselves from correcting a dog? :-k...... :twisted: :-\" :wink:


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Coercive would actually best fit the Webster explanation of correction dog training.
> Compulsive aka Webster is not being able to control a desire that is to hard to resist.
> 
> Does "compulsive" mean those trainers can't control themselves from correcting a dog? :-k...... :twisted: :-\" :wink:


 
They do seem to have a very strong preference in that direction.


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

WTF.."Rockhead Malinois would respond better to compulsive approaches???

For one thing most Mali's I have seen appear much more handler sensitive than their WL GSD counterparts. 
said screw it and erased what I wrote. .


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