# Starting a pup or young dog in bitework, how does your club or trainer do it?



## Lisa McKay

I have been enjoying the recent threads here and after reading through some of them i thought it would be cool to hear the different ways puppies/young dogs are progressed in their protection training. I know in a lot of clubs, pups/young dogs are started in prey with a helper from day one. Then those without a workable level of prey drive are generally put up until more mature then tested again and worked more defensively if need be, some clubs don't do any bitework at all until the dogs are a year or older, some like Tracey H's club have the handlers start the pups then they get put on a helper at around a year old also. The training program I am part of starts them on a helper as young as 8 weeks regardless of drive/temperament. Seems like there are a few different ways of approaching this so I ask, how does your club/trainer start puppies or young dogs? I look forward to reading some replies and feel free to post some video to help illustrate.


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## Howard Gaines III

I see it as an understanding not what you want, but what your puppy can do at a certain age.

Expanding...since you can't test a puppy in defense, it seems wiser to work them in prey and in bite targeting/development. Building the foundion work is a good thing. The problem comes into play when folks want to rush the animal into defense and pressure the life out of them. 

Now all you have is a whacked out animal and a need to rework the process all over...They call them steps for a reason...:mrgreen:


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## Tracey Hughes

I like the way you think Howard.

I used to be one of those people who thought my dog had to be on the arm at 6 months or I wasn't progressing fast enough. All I ended up doing was spending years trying to fix errors in my foundation(lack of) and rather then progressing as quick as I wanted to I ended up wasting a lot of time trying to fix problems started by doing too much too soon. 

Now by spending those first 6-10 months on the basics I find the later training goes so much quicker and so much smoother in all 3 phases. Steady, slow progress is a lot better in the long run then pushing forward too quickly, missing those valuable building blocks in the work and then trying to fix them all later once you decide that you want to go to a higher level then just an IPO 1 at a club level.



“Where you intend to be when the training is finished and the competing starts dictates the training program and the methods that need to be applied.”

And,

"The points you are looking for at the end are the ones you missed in the beginning."

- Lance Collins


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## Steve Burger

At WCGSSC All of the foundation work... bite, hold, carry, out, pulling, barking, etc. is done with the handler and the puppy in prey, with a tug or rag starting at 8 weeks of age. The dog will never see a sleeve until 12-14 months of age. From that point, of initially tapping the defense drive of the young dog, the protection work rapidly escalates. We want the dog to always see the helper as a potential threat. We absolutely do not want them to see it as a game. We want to start actual protection work when the dog is mature enough to see it as serious business. 

As far as that goes we do not teach dogs to bark for a ball in the blind. we don't teach guarding phases with ball machine. We do not teach blind searches without decoys, etc. etc.


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## Howard Gaines III

Steve Burger said:


> At WCGSSC All of the foundation work... bite, hold, carry, out, pulling, barking, etc. is done with the handler and the puppy in prey, with a tug or rag starting at 8 weeks of age. The dog will never see a sleeve until 12-14 months of age...


Steve I hate to disagree here...BUT!
Never seeing a sleeve until 12-14 is just wrong. Each animal is different and I have seen too many that can handle the sleeve at 6 months. The key is doing it in prey and doing slip and wins. I currently have a 6 month old GSD female who has NO ISSUES with a puppy or intro level sleeve. 

The key point, and I say KEY, is to make the experience all prey and watching for counter biting or the reset in biting. At this point we always slip and the puppy wins.

Just the way we roll around here!=D>


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## Gillian Schuler

Steve Burger said:


> At WCGSSC .
> 
> As far as that goes we do not teach dogs to bark for a ball in the blind. we don't teach guarding phases with ball machine. We do not teach blind searches without decoys, etc. etc.


Neither did we - I'm glad to hear some handlers train dogs and not substitutes =D>


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Howard Gaines III said:


> Steve I hate to disagree here...BUT!
> Never seeing a sleeve until 12-14 is just wrong. Each animal is different and I have seen too many that can handle the sleeve at 6 months. The key is doing it in prey and doing slip and wins. I currently have a 6 month old GSD female who has NO ISSUES with a puppy or intro level sleeve.
> 
> The key point, and I say KEY, is to make the experience all prey and watching for counter biting or the reset in biting. At this point we always slip and the puppy wins.
> 
> Just the way we roll around here!=D>


But do they have to see a sleeve right away? Are they missing anything? I might be wrong but from the other writings, they don't want the dog to ever associate the sleeve as prey so you wouldn't instill that in the puppy prey phase.

T


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## Steve Burger

Howard Gaines III said:


> Steve I hate to disagree here...BUT!
> Never seeing a sleeve until 12-14 is just wrong. Each animal is different and I have seen too many that can handle the sleeve at 6 months. The key is doing it in prey and doing slip and wins. I currently have a 6 month old GSD female who has NO ISSUES with a puppy or intro level sleeve.
> 
> The key point, and I say KEY, is to make the experience all prey and watching for counter biting or the reset in biting. At this point we always slip and the puppy wins.
> 
> Just the way we roll around here!=D>


 We will have to agree to disagree. How many dogs have come out of your training system that have taken high protection at the WUSV? How many have received a V rating in protection at the WUSV? Many of our dogs are bought as young dogs from Germany. Virtually all of them have seen a sleeve before the age of 12 months. Most all are locked in prey. It takes a huge amount of concentration to attempt to balance their drive at that point. Often it is impossible.


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## Howard Gaines III

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> But do they have to see a sleeve right away? Are they missing anything? I might be wrong but from the other writings, they don't want the dog to ever associate the sleeve as prey so you wouldn't instill that in the puppy prey phase.
> 
> T


The sleeve is never prey, the decoy is!

The very reason I don't like to always "load" a dog up using a whip. The decoy should be the tool, the sleeve is the safety gear, and the dog/puppy make the action happen.

I use a rag or sleeve on a long line and let them chase me off the training field. Sometimes they don't get the gear as a win. Frustration sometimes builds good drive.

Ladies..............8-[:-o


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Howard Gaines III said:


> The sleeve is never prey, the decoy is!
> 
> The very reason I don't like to always "load" a dog up using a whip. The decoy should be the tool, the sleeve is the safety gear, and the dog/puppy make the action happen.
> 
> I use a rag or sleeve on a long line and let them chase me off the training field. Sometimes they don't get the gear as a win. Frustration sometimes builds good drive.
> 
> Ladies..............8-[:-o


 
But you don't slip them you, you slip them the sleeve. And since we are talkiing about ladies, any pics/pedigree fo your bitch puppy? Interesting that you crossed over from the bouv side to the GSDs.

T


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## Nicole Stark

Howard Gaines III said:


> Frustration sometimes builds good drive.
> 
> Ladies..............8-[:-o


INCREDIBLE drive.... uh oh T, there goes my orbit. \\/


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Nicole Stark said:


> INCREDIBLE drive.... uh oh T, there goes my orbit. \\/


Yeah, I guess some have the art of creating explosion in their work and some don't. But there are all types of explosions. Things have a way of back firing and depending upon the drive, it could get ugly.:wink:


T


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## Nicole Stark

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Yeah, I guess some have the art of creating explosion in their work and some don't. But there are all types of explosions. Things have a way of back firing and depending upon the drive, it could get ugly.:wink:
> 
> 
> T


ha ha I expect so. Redirected drive that's been unfulfilled in other ways produces some pretty incredible results as well. Um, back to the thread... at least that what I got out of it.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Nicole Stark said:


> ha ha I expect so. Redirected drive that's been unfulfilled in other ways produces some pretty incredible results as well. Um, back to the thread... at least that what I got out of it.


 
Yeahhhh, but channeling can only go on for so long. At some point as reinforcment the drive needs to be satisfied.

T


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## Lisa Radcliffe

Steve Burger said:


> We will have to agree to disagree. How many dogs have come out of your training system that have taken high protection at the WUSV? How many have received a V rating in protection at the WUSV? Many of our dogs are bought as young dogs from Germany. Virtually all of them have seen a sleeve before the age of 12 months. Most all are locked in prey. It takes a huge amount of concentration to attempt to balance their drive at that point. Often it is impossible.


"how many dogs have come out of your training system that have taken high in protection at the WUSV? How many have received a V rating in protection at the WUSV?" Steve how many from your club have? Here is what I see on the list from wd.eu 2010 Lance Collins 85P (G) Gabbi Hoffmann 81P (G) 2009 Gabbi H. 94P (SG) 2008 Gabbi H. 90P (SG) 1997 Lance Collins 0P (99P) so Gabbi H. 3 times WUSV with Yoshi. I was looking under teams, the other member was Raino Fluegge, but no V's there. I know there are a few more on the team Canada and one or two more from your club? I thought Nancy?


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## Steve Burger

Lisa Radcliffe said:


> "how many dogs have come out of your training system that have taken high in protection at the WUSV? How many have received a V rating in protection at the WUSV?" Steve how many from your club have? Here is what I see on the list from wd.eu 2010 Lance Collins 85P (G) Gabbi Hoffmann 81P (G) 2009 Gabbi H. 94P (SG) 2008 Gabbi H. 90P (SG) 1997 Lance Collins 0P (99P) so Gabbi H. 3 times WUSV with Yoshi. I was looking under teams, the other member was Raino Fluegge, but no V's there. I know there are a few more on the team Canada and one or two more from your club? I thought Nancy?


Going back on scores in protection, some of the info from sites is not overly clear. I also noticed there were some mistakes on some websites like I think one listed Lance coming in 7th that year and John Lundin another Canadian handler coming in 3rd when actually it was Lance 4th and I think Lundin 6th, and some other errors. I had more results than the following but I did not write some down and could not find the one good websiteagain to get all of the scores.I could not figure out Lance's deal in 97. Actually it looks like 99 in tracking and then probably dq'd in protection. I know he has told stories about Dino, so I will have to find out what happened but here it goes:
1991 Lance with Dune 98 V in protection
1991 Pat Brown-John with Blista 
1992 Lance with Dune 92 in protection
1993 Lance with Dune 94 for 4th place overall (this is the trial where he had at least 2nd place almost assured, and the dog got loaded right before the pickup and started getting vocal went from 1st or 2nd to 4th. 
1995 Rita with her dog (forgot to write it down) 83
1998 Pat Brown-John with Dax 91
1999 Wanda Rose with Gero 92
2000 Wanda Rose with Gero 93
2000 Darryl Harringsma with Bure (1st time handler) 96 V
2001 Pat Brown John with Dax 99 V (high in protection) and 9th overall

Like I said there are more performances. In recent years Gabi had a good showing in Krefeld with Yoschi getting 94 in C phase. He peaked at the 2010 Canadian Championships with a 291 (97 in protection I think) and 1st place under Gunther DIegel. It had become a bit of a battle and he had started being an ass in trials and at the worlds that year it kind of blew up (except for the V in tracking). Actually the judge in Spain was Gunther Diegel who had given her 16 higher points a few months previous. Ros Jamieson also made the team in 2008 as an alternate and was on the team in 2009 and 2010. Nancy Wong was in Kiev 2011 and had a decent showing but handler error cost her in the blind search. In tracking, she and 2 whole flights failed in tracking when a storm wiped out everything. Raino is from the Eastern Region. Lance's last dog Zando did not have a great showing in Spain, but had 2nd place finishes at both the 2009 and 2010 Canadian Nationals. Not to make excuses, but part of what also led up to problems in Spain was that Lance was out of the area working for most of the 2 months leading up to the 2010 WUSV. So not only was he unable to work his own dog, but he could not work other people's dogs much either. So none of the 3 members of our club had much of a chance to prepare well, given that we did not have much in the way of experienced helpers. Actually no helpers at all for a good chunk of that time. 

The point was my response that not showing a dog a sleeve until 12-14 months is wrong. I doubt if there are too many clubs that can claim those kind of results at that level. I believe what we are seeing is a lack of seriousness in many dogs in protection in Schutzhund worldwide. I agree with Lance that much of this is a result of the dogs being introduced to protection as a game. Once it is a game it is hard to make a high nerved dog see it as anything else.


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## Howard Gaines III

Steve Burger said:


> ... I believe what we are seeing is a lack of seriousness in many dogs in protection in Schutzhund worldwide. I agree with Lance that much of this is a result of the dogs being introduced to protection as a game. Once it is a game it is hard to make a high nerved dog see it as anything else.


In many venues, I have to agree here. Teaching the game and the game is about points. 

So what happens to the "gamed" dog that is titled off its home field and by a helper it doesn't know?

Puppies or young dogs that are trained and rewarded with proper game behavior get the sleeve.

How many of these dogs would never make the line-up for real LE or personal security applications? No sleeve, no bite, no interest...:-k


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## Steve Burger

Howard Gaines III said:


> In many venues, I have to agree here. Teaching the game and the game is about points.
> 
> So what happens to the "gamed" dog that is titled off its home field and by a helper it doesn't know?
> 
> Puppies or young dogs that are trained and rewarded with proper game behavior get the sleeve.
> 
> How many of these dogs would never make the line-up for real LE or personal security applications? No sleeve, no bite, no interest...:-k


Sorry, I am not sure if I am following this correctly?? Could you clarify a little more?


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## Lisa Radcliffe

Steve Burger said:


> Going back on scores in protection, some of the info from sites is not overly clear. I also noticed there were some mistakes on some websites like I think one listed Lance coming in 7th that year and John Lundin another Canadian handler coming in 3rd when actually it was Lance 4th and I think Lundin 6th, and some other errors. I had more results than the following but I did not write some down and could not find the one good websiteagain to get all of the scores.I could not figure out Lance's deal in 97. Actually it looks like 99 in tracking and then probably dq'd in protection. I know he has told stories about Dino, so I will have to find out what happened but here it goes:
> 1991 Lance with Dune 98 V in protection
> 1991 Pat Brown-John with Blista
> 1992 Lance with Dune 92 in protection
> 1993 Lance with Dune 94 for 4th place overall (this is the trial where he had at least 2nd place almost assured, and the dog got loaded right before the pickup and started getting vocal went from 1st or 2nd to 4th.
> 1995 Rita with her dog (forgot to write it down) 83
> 1998 Pat Brown-John with Dax 91
> 1999 Wanda Rose with Gero 92
> 2000 Wanda Rose with Gero 93
> 2000 Darryl Harringsma with Bure (1st time handler) 96 V
> 2001 Pat Brown John with Dax 99 V (high in protection) and 9th overall
> 
> Like I said there are more performances. In recent years Gabi had a good showing in Krefeld with Yoschi getting 94 in C phase. He peaked at the 2010 Canadian Championships with a 291 (97 in protection I think) and 1st place under Gunther DIegel. It had become a bit of a battle and he had started being an ass in trials and at the worlds that year it kind of blew up (except for the V in tracking). Actually the judge in Spain was Gunther Diegel who had given her 16 higher points a few months previous. Ros Jamieson also made the team in 2008 as an alternate and was on the team in 2009 and 2010. Nancy Wong was in Kiev 2011 and had a decent showing but handler error cost her in the blind search. In tracking, she and 2 whole flights failed in tracking when a storm wiped out everything. Raino is from the Eastern Region. Lance's last dog Zando did not have a great showing in Spain, but had 2nd place finishes at both the 2009 and 2010 Canadian Nationals. Not to make excuses, but part of what also led up to problems in Spain was that Lance was out of the area working for most of the 2 months leading up to the 2010 WUSV. So not only was he unable to work his own dog, but he could not work other people's dogs much either. So none of the 3 members of our club had much of a chance to prepare well, given that we did not have much in the way of experienced helpers. Actually no helpers at all for a good chunk of that time.
> 
> The point was my response that not showing a dog a sleeve until 12-14 months is wrong. I doubt if there are too many clubs that can claim those kind of results at that level. I believe what we are seeing is a lack of seriousness in many dogs in protection in Schutzhund worldwide. I agree with Lance that much of this is a result of the dogs being introduced to protection as a game. Once it is a game it is hard to make a high nerved dog see it as anything else.


Thanks for the post Steve! sorry it was off topic here I get the point you where making. I agree with all the foundation work bite, hold carry, striking and out to be the handlers job. But don't think the intro to sleeve and helper after 12-14 months has anything to do with how the finished dog will be in regards to being serious about bite sports. In my mind it's genetic's. A balanced dog knows the difference between barking for a tug/ball in training and when it needs to be serious. I do know of police work training that is put off till the dog is a year old but other bite work is done before that with equipment suit/decoy. But this depends too on if the training helper is good at knowing how to bring young dogs up.


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## Marcelo Villanueva

Lisa Radcliffe said:


> Thanks for the post Steve! sorry it was off topic here I get the point you where making. I agree with all the foundation work bite, hold carry, striking and out to be the handlers job. But don't think the intro to sleeve and helper after 12-14 months has anything to do with how the finished dog will be in regards to being serious about bite sports. In my mind it's genetic's. A balanced dog knows the difference between barking for a tug/ball in training and when it needs to be serious. I do know of police work training that is put off till the dog is a year old but other bite work is done before that with equipment suit/decoy. But this depends too on if the training helper is good at knowing how to bring young dogs up.


 
I agree with Steve Burger. 

Seen way too many "serious" dogs that aren't; and I have found it directlionally linked to it's training and early fundamental development between helper and puppy. 

i'm not saying you can't put a dog on a helper early, and NOT attain seriousness in work, however to attain the seriousness later on, requires a lot more stress on a dog that's been worked in the early stages (before a year) with a helper.

Cheers,
Chello...


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## Lisa Radcliffe

Marcelo Villanueva said:


> I agree with Steve Burger.
> 
> Seen way too many "serious" dogs that aren't; and I have found it directlionally linked to it's training and early fundamental development between helper and puppy.
> 
> i'm not saying you can't put a dog on a helper early, and NOT attain seriousness in work, however to attain the seriousness later on, requires a lot more stress on a dog that's been worked in the early stages (before a year) with a helper.
> 
> Cheers,
> Chello...


"But this depends too on if the training helper is good at knowing how to bring young dogs up" for the most part I agree too-


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Seems to me "seriousness" is a whelphing box issue, not a training issue. Seems to be a lot of effort and the training gimmick of the moment to create serious dogs in training to have the serious look in sport. Can you really turn a geneically serious puppy into a game dog? Jusk asking. . .


T


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## Marcelo Villanueva

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Seems to me "seriousness" is a whelphing box issue, not a training issue. Seems to be a lot of effort and the training gimmick of the moment to create serious dogs in training to have the serious look in sport. Can you really turn a geneically serious puppy into a game dog? Jusk asking. . .
> 
> 
> T


 
Training quality will play a major role. 

Genetics will determine the stress level and quantity of training required.


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## Marcelo Villanueva

> Terrasita Cuffie wrote:
> 
> Seems to me "seriousness" is a whelphing box issue, not a training issue.


I can have the finest clay for pottery....

...without the skill to mould it into something; it's no better then regular mud.

Cheers,
Chello...


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Marcelo Villanueva said:


> I can have the finest clay for pottery....
> 
> ...without the skill to mould it into something; it's no better then regular mud.
> 
> Cheers,
> Chello...


 
But you still need that finest clay to start with or at least, prefer it. Not knocking training. I certainly spend a lot of tmes adding trained tools to the genetic tools in what I do full time.

T


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## will fernandez

...a very good pup can overcome bad training and succeed.


For my unit I would work the pups from the tug to the suit with no pressure...then at 12-14 months start adding pressure...now with the current pup ...I have started working some aggression training without any equipment seperately from my prey only bite work...I like the results so far with this dog...

I have Greg Doud to thank for this change...I really like the attitude of his IPO dogs and think it translates over well to policework..
Sent from my SCH-I510 using

Tapatalk 2


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## Nicole Stark

will fernandez said:


> ...a very good pup can overcome bad training and succeed.
> 
> 
> For my unit I would work the pups from the tug to the suit with no pressure...then at 12-14 months start adding pressure...now with the current pup ...I have started working some aggression training without any equipment seperately from my prey only bite work...I like the results so far with this dog...
> 
> I have Greg Doud to thank for this change...I really like the attitude of his IPO dogs and think it translates over well to policework..
> Sent from my SCH-I510 using
> 
> Tapatalk 2


That's interesting. I know you said Greg was behind you making that change but do you care to elaborate more upon why you decided to do that? Was it the dog or the method that drove the decision (besides good advice of course)?

Hey do you think if I paid Greg to post here more often, would he? :wink:


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## mike suttle

will fernandez said:


> ...a very good pup can overcome bad training and succeed.
> 
> 
> For my unit I would work the pups from the tug to the suit with no pressure...then at 12-14 months start adding pressure...now with the current pup ...I have started working some aggression training without any equipment seperately from my prey only bite work...I like the results so far with this dog...
> 
> I have Greg Doud to thank for this change...I really like the attitude of his IPO dogs and think it translates over well to policework..
> Sent from my SCH-I510 using
> 
> Tapatalk 2


Hey Will,
We have started doing that some as well, also because of Greg's suggestion after talking to him in dept about this a while back. Greg is not stupid, he knows how to get things he wants out of a dog, be it for top sport of police work.
He and I are in the early planning stages of doing some police K-9 seminars here this spring. Even though he is not yet known as a police dog guy, he soon will be when more police K-9 handlers see and hear him.


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## will fernandez

Nicole

It was the method...Greg's dogs in IPO give a powerful performance. I am trying to get him to give me his dog Austin to work the street with..
I have watched the development of 3 pups that are all about the same age, two of his and one of mine, all show great bitework and great aggression.


Its just an easy way to build the pup in confidence and prepare him without equipment. Nothing crazy... just teach the pup to win by chasing away the decoy and build on that gradually. Then I teach the dog to work the suit same way I always have...go from tug to suit threw prey and frustration..


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## Joby Becker

will fernandez said:


> Nicole
> 
> It was the method...Greg's dogs in IPO give a powerful performance. I am trying to get him to give me his dog Austin to work the street with..
> I have watched the development of 3 pups that are all about the same age, two of his and one of mine, all show great bitework and great aggression.
> 
> 
> Its just an easy way to build the pup in confidence and prepare him without equipment. Nothing crazy... just teach the pup to win by chasing away the decoy and build on that gradually. Then I teach the dog to work the suit same way I always have...go from tug to suit threw prey and frustration..


at what age range have you started the civil type aggression work?


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## will fernandez

12 weeks with the decoy at a great distance now at eleven months I have started him with some muzzle work and building searches with the muzzle..but now it goes it to German style police training with KNPV bitework..


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## Joby Becker

when wanting dog for protection, that is what I (we) did/do ideally, albeit usually a little older most times.

The PP crowd does this a lot, works great for people that know how to handle their dogs and get the control over them.


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## Lisa McKay

Thanks to all who have replied. I was beginning to think I wasn't going to get any feedback, then the replies finally started coming and then i thought it was going to turn into another thread on the Lance Collins method. LOL. . It's interesting to hear everyone's opinions and the different ways of working dogs. I have seen very good aggression come from dogs who have been worked on a helper beginning at a very young age and have also seen good results come from starting puppies/young dogs without relying on prey techniques in order to do it. Obviously someone who is serious about competing is going to want a dog with a good level of prey, its obviously easier to get a dog "started" ,that's a no brainer for sure, but at the same time it sure is interesting to see the progression in some of these dogs/pups who don't really come with that. It's really cool to see how the training is able transform the dogs and it's cool to see them start to bring it on their own. In many cases you would never know they were the same dogs once they have had a bit of training. At the club i train at there are people with a wide range of goals, from club level titles to National level. Some who come out aren't even interested in sport and just want an obedient family protector. The dogs are of a variety of breeds with a variety of temperaments and the philosophy used in training the dogs gets results across the board...the dogs are all definitely brought to their full potential regardless of their temperaments and that's all any handler can ask for.

Keep the replies coming.


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## Steve Burger

Lisa Radcliffe said:


> ) 1997 Lance Collins 0P (99P)


 I asked about that year's WUSV, because it looked to be 99 in Tracking and then a withdraw. He told me that the dog had been injured a few weeks before. and the injury re-surfaced after tracking, when practicing obedience, so he had to pull the dog. He was never worked again. He said he was real disappointed as the dog was something else in protection and he really wanted to show him. That would suck to be sitting there with that kind of A score and have to pull.


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## Ted Summers

I think in depends on the dog as it seems some 'mature' faster than others. My Mali was tugging and pulling on a rag at 8 weeks. At about 15 weeks I had him 'targeting' on a tiny puppy sleeve while working on his 'here' command as well. To this day...... when he sees the wee-pup sleeve he goes crazy. I would be careful when they are teething to make sure they're not in pain. Once the adult teeth come in I moved mine over to an intermediate sleeve and he stayed on that until I or the helper couldn't get out of it at that point we moved him to the full sized sleeve. With each session as a pup I focused *A LOT* on targeting and full grips. I also started with distance very short until his targeting got to the point where he could anticipate what the helper is going to do to hit the target. There were a few times where we were a bit far out and he and the helper ended up in a heap of dog, sleeve, and helper #-o:lol:. It's surprising how much skill is required by the dog in a long high speed bite. He learned real early that if he doesn't use his WHOLE mouth and ALL his teeth on the sleeve/rag he wasn't going to get it. Plus, he's learned that he's gotta' hit the sleeve in the right spot AND have a full grip to 'win'.


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## Matt Vandart

Joby Becker said:


> when wanting dog for protection, that is what I (we) did/do ideally, albeit usually a little older most times.
> 
> The PP crowd does this a lot, works great for people that know how to handle their dogs and get the control over them.


I concur


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