# rasing a kennel dog



## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

I have two runs set up at my place but I rarely use them. I'm getting a dutchie pup in late dec and she's going to be trained for personal protection from the get go.

I've never had a true kennel dog before. I've had older dogs and just put them in the kennel but have no experience with an 8wk pup. I know this dumb but you just stick her in the kennel and then do what most of us do with pups to build drive? 

OR, do I raise her in the house for the first 6mo or so and then put her in the kennels? I have five other house dogs now. Though I will most likely be down to three before the pup comes and then it will be one 2yr working male rottie , 10yr old female pug and 11yr old male pug. I don't really count the pugs as dogs since they are always with my wife in bed or on her lap. The old male doesn't care for exercise beyond walking to his food dish and to get the mail. The female runs with the rotties every morning. 

My female pug is the dominant dog in the house. Its funny to watch her terrorize the rotties as she chases after them. Do I need to worry about pug dominance with a dutchie? I didn't with any of my other dogs but then again they are pets first and sport dogs second. The dutchie is meant to be a PP and ring sport dog.

Sorry for the ramble, the question is, are there concerns I should have with a new pup with putting her in a kennel?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Both my GSDs, individually spent their first 6-8 months in the house. They both now live in the kennel. 
My JRT used to beat the crap out of my first GSD till the GSD got to about 20 months old (go figure). He then stopped putting up with the JRT's crap but my JRT, being what he is, wont back off. They are never alone together but not a problem when I'm with all of them. It has never seemed to affect the GSD in any way. He's not at all dog aggressive or submissive to other dogs. Fact is, he'll get along with any dog or bitch that doesn't try to get pushy. 
Many advise not letting them together in order to keep them from bonding with one another rather then bonding to you. I've never seen that problem with many years of raising multiple dogs together.


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## Eros Kopliku (Jan 30, 2008)

At the risk of sounding like Mr. Obvious, why would one raise/keep a personal protection dog in an outside kennel? Will she eventually make it inside the house at a certain age?


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

first 6-8 months in the house, then we moved ours to the kennel- they were housebroken by crate training, got to be around with our other dogs we had in the house, and when we want them in the house, they do fine. We have 10 now, so can't have them all in the house-3 are always in the house, and the others take turns-didn't seem to hurt their drive, bonding etc. Mo


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Mo Earle said:


> first 6-8 months in the house, then we moved ours to the kennel- they were housebroken by crate training, got to be around with our other dogs we had in the house, and when we want them in the house, they do fine. We have 10 now, so can't have them all in the house-3 are always in the house, and the others take turns-didn't seem to hurt their drive, bonding etc. Mo



That makes sense and feels right to me. The guys that I train with all have differing opinions on the subject. One of thinks my rottie is way to social and it's because he's a house dog.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Why wouldn't a social dog make a good PPD?

There are lots of trainers around that think the dog should be kept outside all the time because it could get soft in the house. There's no cure for their addlepated brains. 

How you bring up the dog and train him has imo no bearing on where the dog is kept but I keep seeing this "personal" protection dog flashing in my brain and wonder what it can do to protect me in the kennel????


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Why wouldn't a social dog make a good PPD?
> 
> There are lots of trainers around that think the dog should be kept outside all the time because it could get soft in the house. There's no cure for their addlepated brains.
> 
> How you bring up the dog and train him has imo no bearing on where the dog is kept but I keep seeing this "personal" protection dog flashing in my brain and wonder what it can do to protect me in the kennel????



It not meant to always stay in the kennel but mostly kept away from the other house dogs. The idea is, you go to bed and turn the dog loose in the house at night. 

I have a rottie now (as I frequently mention) we've done lots of PP training with him but he's a little too social as pointed out by one of the guys I train with. He brought his oldest son to training once and he was able to call my dog and pet him. A complete stranger, with my house dogs, I don't mind so much but let's he's a guy who intendeds to cause harm and has been watching me or my wife? All he'd have to do is act friendly at the fence one day or over a couple of days and then stick him with a knife. That may never happen but if **I** can think of it then so can somebody else.

Call me paranoid but there is a real possibity of a complete economic breakdown throwing the US and much of the world into a Greater Depression. Hyperinflation, homeless and hungry people could be coming in a worse case scenerio. Now, I'm not the type that stockpiles food and ammo but IF that were to happen over the next few years nobody know who has what and the bold and the hungry will start checking out the suburban homes.

I know too many people who have lost "high paying" jobs and have yet to find away to replace the income and style of living. I'm one of them... I know many people who have lost their homes and cars, this is only the begining of what "could" happen. IF it happens and you're just realizing you're in the middle of it then you're too late.

There are other issues surrounding my wanting a true PP dog. My wife is a runner, when we lived in MN she'd been stopped by strange men on two occasions. After we got our first dog, it never happened again. In AZ, it seems people are more bold. She had one guy follow her for several blocks after she told to guy to leave her alone. Good thing she was with the our male. At the time he was only 11 mo but had enough schH training that his confidence was high enough to stand out at the end of the leash and stare at the guy. What did this guy want? He asked if the dog was nice and wanted to pet the dog, THAT's creepy!!! My wife is now running 5-7 miles per day and she's training to ramp it up to 7-10. That's too much running for a rottie.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Keeping a dog outside or inside will have nothing to do with its friendliness or lack thereof. 

What I will point out though, is that an outside dog might possibly (depending on how you raise it and naturally again, genetics) not bond with you as well as an inside dog, which I think is something that people tend to forget when it comes to PPDs.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Bonding is not the issue, I think constant corrections are. NO...don't chew on the couch. NO...don't bounce of the walls, NO, don't eat the wall. NO...stop harassing the old man pug. I work from home but I can't give constant attention to a extreme drive dog. I would never expect a Dutchie to sit still.

I also don't want a pup to be dominated by the other dogs. Where I am buying the dog, they say they are not inside dogs.



Lyn Chen said:


> Keeping a dog outside or inside will have nothing to do with its friendliness or lack thereof.
> 
> What I will point out though, is that an outside dog might possibly (depending on how you raise it and naturally again, genetics) not bond with you as well as an inside dog, which I think is something that people tend to forget when it comes to PPDs.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Chris, 

I raise my pups in the house for a few months and then gradually get them used to being in the kennel environment as well. 

I raise them in the house first to create the initial bond (which I know you said is not an issue, just telling you what I do) and also to get them used to crating, potty training and what the rules of the house are. 

As far as the pup learning not to "bug" the other dogs, that is up to us to teach.

My dogs all have their own indoor/outdoor kennels and then they each get to rotate in the house, going to work, the fire station and the S.O. department with me.

Pups go everywhere with me for the first couple weeks so that I can see what their "potty" schedule is going to be and this allows me to learn how long they can stay at home in the crate before I have to run home and let them out. 

Your fortunate to work from home. 

I do not think that a dog in an outside kennel is going to have any less of a bond as long as the handler works just as much with the dog as they would if it was in the house. 

Having dogs outside in kennels does allow for some to procrastinate in working with their dogs though. It just requires a little more dillegence in spending time with the dog IMHO. 

Hope that makes sense.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

My training buds are trying to get me to do zero corrections for the first six mo which is why the kennel is even an issue. I'm not so worried about the pugs being terrorized, they've lived though four rottie pups and a few fosters.

The plan suggested is drive work and grip work (later). No OB except OUT until at least 6mo. They say the only way to do that is strict kennel living where the pup only comes out for bonding play and work.

I most likely will do it my own way which is set up a crate in the bedroom. The pup is always with me, learns house manners and potty training. The pup is only out to play, eat or do business. The kennel where I am getting the dog from says they start putting the pups into crates to spend time alone for short sessions before the pups are sent out.

I've raised quite a few pups but now that I'm more serious about having a seriously serious working dog, I feel the need to question things so I do it correctly. This going to be my first "hard" dog. After a few knuckhead rotts, I'm experienced enough to move forward with this. The guys I train with all have hard dogs so it's not a totally new experience.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

I raise my pups with no corrections for as long as I can. Lots of redirection and marker training for the behaviors I want and then I pretty much ignore the negative behaviors I do not want. 

Easy to do whether the pup is raised inside or out, especially using the tether method.


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

> _My training buds are trying to get me to do zero corrections for the first six mo
> _


_I think during this period- it is teaching- redirecting to the positive, and reward for good behaviors is really important-but with a high drive pup to say zero corrections- not sure if I would totally commit to that._

When I got both Hugo and Tango,the group I was training with, insisted they needed to stay in the kennel only, they needed to think they were #1 dog, the toughest around- well we didn't do that, I told you already what we did- and they are doing great!

_The pugs will take care of them selves, as long as you are bringing in a pup-when I brought Hugo and Tango in, we had a small cocker spaniel as well as our GSD's- bringing them in as a pup, all was fine, if one got a little to rough or dominant, we corrected that or didn't let it get out of hand- having them be raised around each other- they are fine with most of my dogs and most other dogs-and it has not hurt their drives one bit._

_We take all of our dogs running- well they run, as we ride the 4 wheeler, :-o when Hugo was 8weeks old, he rode on the 4 wheeler while all the other dogs ran, once he was older -I think about 8 months old,he started running with the rest of them- now he and Tango are the leaders of the pack ahead of the GSD's-but no issues,that he rode the bike for a long time._

_Also,if you keep the dog social,with people and animals, you will have less chance of aggression to strangers and other dogs- "on their own-" a great PP dog, is one that is social, but on command or on aggression toward the handler, the dog is going to react.If your dog is out of control, and can't be out where you need him, he is really not going to be able to protect you. One girl in a club I was in years ago, had a beautiful Rottie-real social, very friendly, like a big teddy bear- but was being taught protection work-they went walking through the park, few guys came up told her they loved the dog, could stand and talk to her without issue, but they told her they wanted the dog- as she try to pass, they told her they were taking the dog- she asked for them to leave them alone, they didn't so as they reached to take the dog-she gave her command-and the dog took out one, while his buddies went the other way- :twisted: _
_You want the same type of dog,so when your wife is running, she doesn't have to worry about another dog in her path, or a person- that the dog is going to be "social", can even be a couch potato in the house, IMO-but as long as he has the drive and it is directed properly he will still work efficiently when needed. _
_And finally- with the territorial protection, you want the dog learning the house is also part of his territory- not just his kennel or kennel run.....Mo _


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Carol Boche said:


> I raise my pups with no corrections for as long as I can. Lots of redirection and marker training for the behaviors I want and then I pretty much ignore the negative behaviors I do not want.
> 
> Easy to do whether the pup is raised inside or out, especially using the tether method.


I like that answer! Raising a pup in the house doesn't mean you have to constantly be correcting it. Raising one in the hosue also doesn't mean it has the run of the house. That's a part of crate training (and the tether). 
My kenneled GSDs are not my PPDs. They're my sport dogs and my buddies although they are also geat alarm dogs outside. If they did more it's just a bonus, not a necessity for me. I "think" one would. Still doesn't matter. It's not a job I selected or trained them for.
My JRT is all I need as far as a home PPD is concerned. He'll alert on someone farting two blocks away. With the alert it's MY job to do all the protecting.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Chris Michalek said:


> Bonding is not the issue, I think constant corrections are. NO...don't chew on the couch. NO...don't bounce of the walls, NO, don't eat the wall. NO...stop harassing the old man pug. I work from home but I can't give constant attention to a extreme drive dog. I would never expect a Dutchie to sit still.
> 
> I also don't want a pup to be dominated by the other dogs. Where I am buying the dog, they say they are not inside dogs.


My personal opinion? If the breeder works the dogs and does well, I would take his advice. He knows the dogs better than anyone else. If you don't listen to the breeder then it isn't his fault if the dog isn't what he says it can be.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> My personal opinion? If the breeder works the dogs and does well, I would take his advice. He knows the dogs better than anyone else. If you don't listen to the breeder then it isn't his fault if the dog isn't what he says it can be.


Well, I'm canceling my dutchie deal. I just brought home an Malinois pup this evening. It was a deal I couldn't refuse.

*[SIZE=+3][/SIZE]*


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## Colin Chin (Sep 20, 2006)

Chris,
Tell us more about your new Mal pup. Why did you change your mind ? Cheers.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Colin Chin said:


> Chris,
> Tell us more about your new Mal pup. Why did you change your mind ? Cheers.



The bloodlines are good and barter is always better than money out of my pocket. 

The sire was second overall at the AWMA 2008 Nationals.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Chris, maybe I'm totally thinking of someone else...but wasn't it you that got attacked by that guy at your house and your male Rottie had a live bite out of it with no problems? Sounds just right to me and like you don't really have much a problem to me as that situation seemed perfectly appropriate, no matter what the guy who trains with you said. And a young adult Rottie should not have trouble running at a trot for ~10 miles a day. Just think about if you take your dog on an off leash hike for an hour. If you walk at a reasonably brisk 4 mph and therefore cover 4 miles in that hour, and they are off leash running as they please, they are probably doing 2-3 times that no sweat. I see you've already gotten the Mal, which is fine, but I'd give your boy more credit who has protected you with a live bite, which is likely more than most people on this forum.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Yes that's me. 

I'm not down on my rottie at all. I just started thinking about dutchies and wanted one and then this pup fell into my lap. 

My rott is in good shape but he can't do 10 miles without dragging. He has issues with four and then wants to go home. I like rotts and my wife wants a running partner. I can't be so I want her to have a suitable dog. Then there is the issue of wanting to do Ring Sport - I'll have a better go at it with an appropriate breed.

I think of the rottie as a middle linebacker and the Mal as a wide reciever. One is simply better suited to running fly patterns all day long.





Maren Bell Jones said:


> Chris, maybe I'm totally thinking of someone else...but wasn't it you that got attacked by that guy at your house and your male Rottie had a live bite out of it with no problems? Sounds just right to me and like you don't really have much a problem to me as that situation seemed perfectly appropriate, no matter what the guy who trains with you said. And a young adult Rottie should not have trouble running at a trot for ~10 miles a day. Just think about if you take your dog on an off leash hike for an hour. If you walk at a reasonably brisk 4 mph and therefore cover 4 miles in that hour, and they are off leash running as they please, they are probably doing 2-3 times that no sweat. I see you've already gotten the Mal, which is fine, but I'd give your boy more credit who has protected you with a live bite, which is likely more than most people on this forum.


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