# adding verbal cues



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

hi, forum seemed low activity so thought i would sneak in a training question;

my now 12 wo pup is anticipating commands and ofering behaviours for basic positions eg sit, drop stand. i have only used food lures and physical gestures. the pup is enthusiastic and reliable and does anticipate.

i have not formally charged the mark or whatever its called but do use a release command mostly out of habit.

the question: at what point would you add a verbal command and what time frame other than when the dogs is ready would you transition out the physical cue / lure to stright verbal cue.

secondly is it a requirement that in IPO a competitor use german language verbal cues like platz etc. i ask cause i am workin on a security licence and if this dog suits that work i will drop sports n do paid work as i don't think sch. training will enhance actual security duties.

any opinions on both questions appreciatted


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Will the dog bark on the back or front porch yet ??


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

thanks Gerr - predictable as you are helpful - not


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> thanks Gerr - predictable as you are helpful - not


If you knew it was coming...

Seriously, you're talking about a 12 wk old pup and have used about a half dozen descriptive training terms and all the pup really wants to do is take a shit and get some snooze time.

Loosen up man :lol:


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

yeah Gerry i'm not being all formal training or anything with the pup, quite the oppossitte its all just playin but because he is offering all these behaviours i thought there might be an opportunitty to mark them in case the pup moves on. 

too much thinkin on my part, will work on a vid u can see yourself. don't have another pup to compare this too but i think it is a really good pup u can all set me stright with a vid i guess.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> all the pup really wants to do is take a shit and get some snooze time.


 
thats the point, might be deluded here, n u will get a laugh out of this but this pup goes around looking for sh!t, bites the sh!t out of evrything THEN some snooze time.


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## Thomas Jones (Feb 4, 2011)

idk pete mine will sit when tell her to but like when I go to give her the food she jumps up and tries to take it out of my hand. I'm gonna have to wait til she's older and can handle a correction before I start doing any real obedience with her. She's got too much drive to be still right now(6 months)


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> thats the point, might be deluded here, n u will get a laugh out of this but this pup goes around looking for sh!t, bites the sh!t out of evrything THEN some snooze time.


Just from what I've seen of herding in this site....you could be blind/deaf/mute and then some and still be successful =P~

Honestly..how could you go wrong ??


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## Lynda Myers (Jul 16, 2008)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> hi, forum seemed low activity so thought i would sneak in a training question;
> 
> my now 12 wo pup is anticipating commands and ofering behaviours for basic positions eg sit, drop stand. i have only used food lures and physical gestures. the pup is enthusiastic and reliable and does anticipate.
> 
> ...


Peter you give a behavior a name when your sure the pup/dog will offer up the behavior most of the time. Once the behavior has been named you no longer reward the unsolicited behavior. Also you only want to work on one behavior at a time. Once the dog is reliable in the named behavior then add another and so on and so on.


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## James Idi (Apr 19, 2009)

I watched a Michael Ellis vid on youtube that talked about this issue. I can't remember the exact name, however, if you do a search I'm sure you'd find it, and his vids are excellent IMO.

His take on the subject is that you shouldn't "name" the behavior until it is done exactly how you want it to be done. Makes sense to me.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> hi, forum seemed low activity so thought i would sneak in a training question;
> 
> my now 12 wo pup is anticipating commands and ofering behaviours for basic positions eg sit, drop stand. i have only used food lures and physical gestures. the pup is enthusiastic and reliable and does anticipate.
> 
> ...


If the puppy is offering those behaviors, I'm assuming you have marked/reinforced/rewarded those behaviors. What book or video did you look at before you started this?


T


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

cheers i will let it go - seemed like an opportunity to grab while it presented itself ie some accidental training moments - i was never trying to be formal, just food luring in drive really.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

[QUOTE I'm assuming you have marked/reinforced/rewarded those behaviors. 
T[/QUOTE]


nothing of the sort, i thought that was precisely what i was asking in the OP???? ie SHOULD i be doing that - what?

i just put a physical cue so it was physically easier to sit, down stand solely by the position of my hand full of food in its face - vis Ivan B n ME. no verbal comand or expectation, just easier to get a mouthful of food that way, nothin complicated.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> [QUOTE I'm assuming you have marked/reinforced/rewarded those behaviors.
> T


 
nothing of the sort, i thought that was precisely what i was asking in the OP???? ie SHOULD i be doing that - what?

i just put a physical cue so it was physically easier to sit, down stand solely by the position of my hand full of food in its face - vis Ivan B n ME. no verbal comand or expectation, just easier to get a mouthful of food that way, nothin complicated.[/QUOTE]


Peter,

Feeding the dog food while he is in the position is rewarding or reinforcing the behavior. Ivan marks the behavior by saying yes when the dog is in position and right before he is giving him the food--depending on which DVD you are going by. Are you doing that? As far as putting the cue/word/command on the behavior/position, do one at a time or you will confuse him. The rule of thumb is once he is consistently performing the behavior/position, add the command word a split second before he does it, mark/reward. Its not complicated but ya kinda need to know what training concept and how much of it you are using. So if you start with sit, don't add down until you can say sit and he instantly sits [no other position] and in different places . You want him to really know sit means sit before you add down or stand. I think the Michael Ellis DVDs may explain more and give you all the steps. Karen Pryor's first book gives you all the theories and ways to get behavior, add cues and get what they call cue control if you can wade through all the people training stuff. 

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> cheers i will let it go - seemed like an opportunity to grab while it presented itself ie some accidental training moments - i was never trying to be formal, just food luring in drive really.


 
Peter,

I have 10-12 week old puppies started with working stock and trained sit, down, recall, back up and starting to walk on a loose lead--all positive. The next one, I'll add the retrieve. Nothing wrong with laying a foundation and positive reinforcement obedience. Its probably the best age to do this.

T


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## jeremy anderson (Mar 19, 2010)

Peter,

Feeding the dog food while he is in the position is rewarding or reinforcing the behavior. Ivan marks the behavior by saying yes when the dog is in position and right before he is giving him the food--depending on which DVD you are going by. Are you doing that? As far as putting the cue/word/command on the behavior/position, do one at a time or you will confuse him. The rule of thumb is once he is consistently performing the behavior/position, add the command word a split second before he does it, mark/reward. Its not complicated but ya kinda need to know what training concept and how much of it you are using. So if you start with sit, don't add down until you can say sit and he instantly sits [no other position] and in different places . You want him to really know sit means sit before you add down or stand. I think the Michael Ellis DVDs may explain more and give you all the steps. Karen Pryor's first book gives you all the theories and ways to get behavior, add cues and get what they call cue control if you can wade through all the people training stuff. 

T[/QUOTE]

It's all about timing. Know when he is going to exhibit the behavior & say the word the second he's about to. 
I know if I'm on the field running around my pup is following me. The minute I stop she's going to platz (exhibit) so as i'm stopping I say "platz" & she does it. If she doesn't or she sits I say nope & start running around again & do it again. She will start to associate the behavior with the word Platz & I will slowly take the physical cue out when I see that. Start stopping but not saying platz. When she exhibits I say "nope" & start up again then do a couple more saying "platz" Eventually it clicks in there head that I only get good stuff when he says "platz" & I do it & when it clicks training moves fast from there. 
It's funny I'm learning there really isn't to much of a gray area with dogs. You train, train, train then one day all of a sudden they nail it & that's it, they got it every time.
With sit I trained her by putting my hand with food over her head & she plopped into a sit. (physical cue). After about 10 times doing that I wouldn't extend my arm as far towards her & she sat, Then I would only move my forearm, my elbow against my hip. Then just my hand & wrist would move, then just my finger. The whole time saying sit before each one. 
Good luck


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> If you knew it was coming...
> 
> Seriously, you're talking about a 12 wk old pup and have used about a half dozen descriptive training terms and all the pup really wants to do is take a shit and get some snooze time.
> 
> Loosen up man :lol:


What the hell's wrong with these folks. Why do they always have to put the pup through such exercises? By the time they've finished with it, it will niot be use for much, unless it's made of terrific stock!!


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## jeremy anderson (Mar 19, 2010)

Gillian Schuler said:


> What the hell's wrong with these folks. Why do they always have to put the pup through such exercises? By the time they've finished with it, it will niot be use for much, unless it's made of terrific stock!!


Not sure what the issue would be. If you make it a game for 2 min a day I don't see the harm. Don't use corrections or anything bad. Just the word "nope" in a nice tone. If the pup does it, it gets treats, If it doesn't then "nope & the chase/game keeps going.

If it's done in play, what can it harm?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Gillian Schuler said:


> What the hell's wrong with these folks. Why do they always have to put the pup through such exercises? By the time they've finished with it, it will niot be use for much, unless it's made of terrific stock!!



I agree with that statement with traditional training. Done as a game and reward based it can work wonders for building compliance to a command before compulsion is needed. When that time comes it makes this sooo much easier.
At 12 weeks I expect a happy sit, down, come, and even short term stays.
With a puppy it's all about making a game of training.
When I started training dogs nobody bothered doing anything till after a year. later on it was nothing before 6 months. This was all because a puppy couldn't handle the particular training that was done at the time. Still good methods that work well but I don't see any reason not to have a good time with a puppy and train it at the same time. 
Establish that foundation of learning and you wont need near the compulsion later on. 
Nothing in dog training gives me the enjoyment of seeing a puppy's lights go on.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

i can't work out who / what Gillian was refering to; the tradtitonal approach or the more play based approach mentioned here??? or somethin else??


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

as in the "these folks" comment???

which folks?? please clarify


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

jeremy anderson said:


> Not sure what the issue would be. If you make it a game for 2 min a day I don't see the harm. Don't use corrections or anything bad. Just the word "nope" in a nice tone. If the pup does it, it gets treats, If it doesn't then "nope & the chase/game keeps going.
> 
> If it's done in play, what can it harm?


 
Jeremy FYI no corrections not even a nope, the dog just does stuff kinda random to see what pays and gets selective food rewards for some stuff and not other stuff - yes reinforcing but no correction or commands. 

thanks all.


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Pete...so you are in a sense free-shaping?


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

er Doug, be careful about using such high falutin trainery type terminolgy here should you feel the wrath. but actually i don't know what i'm doing just sayin what was heppenin and asked a simple question to get opinion - but i will take what u said if its good n makes me sound like i know what i'm doin


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

Gillian Schuler said:


> What the hell's wrong with these folks. Why do they always have to put the pup through such exercises? By the time they've finished with it, it will niot be use for much, unless it's made of terrific stock!!


I used to do this too Gillian, I spent so much time wasted on motivational puppy training, feeding them from my hands to teach them to work for me. 

My last 2 pups I have done nothing other then drive building with as per Lance Collins, and I am so farther ahead, and so much less work, they are lucky to have 1-2 sessions a week.

I start OB, tracking and bite work on the sleeve all around 13 months now. The dog is more ready to handle the work and I am finding the dogs moving ahead in the training very quickly by doing this type of training. I would never do it the “old” way again, as all that puppy work I did made them no better at all in the long run.


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## jeremy anderson (Mar 19, 2010)

Tracey Hughes said:


> I used to do this too Gillian, I spent so much time wasted on motivational puppy training, feeding them from my hands to teach them to work for me.
> 
> My last 2 pups I have done nothing other then drive building with as per Lance Collins, and I am so farther ahead, and so much less work, they are lucky to have 1-2 sessions a week.
> 
> I start OB, tracking and bite work on the sleeve all around 13 months now. The dog is more ready to handle the work and I am finding the dogs moving ahead in the training very quickly by doing this type of training. I would never do it the “old” way again, as all that puppy work I did made them no better at all in the long run.


Are your dogs inside or outside dogs?


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

I have 2 dogs in the house right now, a Malinois and an American Bulldog. The others are outside dogs. Haven’t found it makes a difference as to how they work. 
But I don’t give formal(trial) commands to any of my dogs unless I am ready to enforce them. Normally before a training session I crate all the dogs so they are well rested.


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## jeremy anderson (Mar 19, 2010)

Tracey Hughes said:


> I have 2 dogs in the house right now, a Malinois and an American Bulldog. The others are outside dogs. Haven’t found it makes a difference as to how they work.
> But I don’t give formal(trial) commands to any of my dogs unless I am ready to enforce them. Normally before a training session I crate all the dogs so they are well rested.


I just ask because my 1yr old I didn't do any OB at all & only work was on the field until she was about 9 months old. She stayed in the kennel & just went on walks or the field. She's now a nightmare at 1 & hard to control. She's coming along in OB but slowly. She tips over in drive & never learned to control it. Shes real independent.
My pup on the other hand I started the min I picked her up with all & only good things come from me & started the motivation OB at 8 weeks. Shes 5 months now & has sooooo much more focus on me & her drive hasn't diminished at all. She's actually gonna pass the older dog in a few months in training because of this.
I know all dogs are diff & I'm not saying which method is right or wrong, just speaking from personal exp. 
Both females have the same Sire but diff Dam. Older one has a touch more prey drive & younger has a touch more aggression.


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

I get where you are coming from. Building up the drive so high can be hard if you don’t know how to cap it later! Whatever works for you is the right way to train IMO. I prefer having as much drive as I can in a dog as I find it easier to cap it then to build it up..but I used to do the puppy motivation training. Maybe I am just getting lazy


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

so Tracey are your dogs so much better than say micheal ellis's or ivan b's or gotfried d, if so i will pm u my my credit card number and u can start sending me any training videos u made. 

i'm still not sure which are the "them" gillian was referring to. not trying to be a smart-a either the post was ambiguous. actually not sure if you are agreeing with gillian or not??? just confused i guess. but i don't think gillian's gonna answer.

PS tracey, when u show me your vids of yr dog better than above mentioned i will also give the full purchase value of all the vids i bought of theirs - thats how devoted i would be to you.

so get crackin girl my cash is ready to send you - maybe gill can hold the camera while u train.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Tracey Hughes said:


> ... *and I am so farther ahead*.... thats all kind of relative, u could be totall sh!t and still be much farther ahead than where u were .
> 
> 
> i'm currently total crap but still so farther ahead than i was :wink:


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

I don’t know what anyone else’s dogs are like, but I am having a great time training mine.

I have done ok in the sport, I am certainly no Ivan, but I wasn’t happy with my training anymore, thought I could do better and I found a method I really liked.

I wouldn’t take any money, but there is always an open invite for anyone to come train at our place. I enjoy this training system and love to share it.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

good response Tracey - i think there is no best training method in isolation of other factors JMO, dogs aren't from an assembly line neither are people. i think the training techniques have to match both what the trainer can bring to the table (no not "TABLE" table gosh!!) and what the dog intrinsically has.

i remember a good sport coach saying that he has no set method he first finds out the drives and needs etc are of the individual competitor and goes from there - it was an individual sport not a team sport.

good luck with the training - i got a lance collins dvd from a seminar he seems good at explaining things and a calm headed guy. i would like the chance of attending one of his seminars , is he still actively competing?


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

I agree with you 100%, there are many ways to get to your goals in dog training, it comes down to what meshes with handlers and dogs. Since starting Lance’s training we have found that people either jump on board with it immediately and love it, or hate it and have no interest in trying it at all. What sold me is being at Lance’s club for a weekend. I have never been to a club before where everyone had their dog’s heeling at such a level! You really had a hard time telling the newcomers to the sport, from the World Competitors.

Lance is still competing, we have him coming to London, Ontario for a training weekend in August. Just a small group of us, 15 dog teams and 5 spectators. Hoping to take a lot home from it to be able to improve on my performances this Fall.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

what worked for me is LC perpectives on dog psychology and relating it to approaches in training, i actually got a lot of it, which seldom happens lol. 

i am trying to transcribe a video of a video of a big wall-chart he made postioning a dog's personality types/drives and how that would impact on the handling approach.

what didn't work for me was the jerking the stick out the mouth with a string to encourage a stronger grip when dog is running with it - i did that with my first, now i got a guardy / possessive / aggressive dog with a firm grip, some people would say mission accomplished and that the training worked i guess. 

not saying it was the training at all but in reflection i would have approached it different eg a weak grip won't mean yr gonna get it snatched away and an out this time is just a trigger to re-start the fun again - who knows prolly still would have ended up with same problem???


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

His whole training approach just clicked with what I have been wanting from my dogs. I just didn’t have the right training to get it the results I wanted, at least this quickly.

I have only done one dog so far with his retrieve method, my Malinois bitch, Arsenic du Metcalf, who it seems to be working with, our first trial this Fall will be the proof. 

Getting ready to start it soon with my SchH 3 GSD, who I went back and re trained from day one, as I had little control over him, and a young American Bulldog who had hardly any previous training, so less foundation to try to change with her. The interesting part for me is seeing it work with such a variety of breeds and temperament types.

Happy Training!:mrgreen:


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## Christopher Fox (Dec 24, 2009)

From skimming, there appears to be some disagreement and training and correcting puppies? I don't get it. That puppy has been learning rules and been corrected, by mama, since the day it was born. Why stop? Shitting and sleeping is all they want?

Really? Not this little 12 week old red heeler laying at my feet. She is sleeping right now, she already shat for the day, but the day is far from over and she is far from done with doing things. Like learning. And being corrected. As far as corrections well after 2 weeks of having her, my NO, is starting to ramp up. Nagging, getting louder, deeper at times. I have even had a couple in the last day or so to accompany a scuff shake.

Lil Josie needs to learn when she is frustrating me and starting to piss me off when she becomes way too persistent with something. Because she _can_. Dogs still have some remanant wolf stuff that serves little purpose, but domestic dogs are way, way, way more socially complex and intelligent than I see the Service/Sport/PPD folks express.

Your dog has been learning and been corrected since day one, certainly nonstop learning. Why stop? Why force to eat, shit and focus on inamimate objects like sticks? We are tapering the behavior off, nagging my girl, but at one point I probably had 75+ little scabs on each arm and hand. I also sacrificed a pair of pants with some fresh rips in the legs.

Teaching selective commands, gentle corrections and some NAGGING. Yup time to nag the girl. Get her confused. A learnong excercise, teaching her to read me. To understand what makes me tick.

Because she is capable of learning that as dogs are evolved UP from wolves socially and are incredibly more complex than alot of people realize. They possess social intelligence many don't acknowledge. Every dog is different. Be consistent, but modify. Realize that your dog can learn to read very subtle things about you.

As far as the small niche on this site (sheepherding dogs doing man work through selective breeding for hyped up prey drive controlled through equally hyped up rank drive), yea, there are some things unique to them that make the little opportunists have to have specific things done with them, but of the 400 million or so other dogs, from lap dog to working cow dog dog to Mastiff protection dog, not so.

How do I know? Well, ya'll take a good swig of coffee so you have something to spit out of your mouth and on to your computer sreen in laughter....

I spent a year at a Doggie Daycare about a decade ago. Now, when you are done laughing and consider that dogs allowed in Doggie Daycares 10 years ago aren't today (think a little more Wild West and business owners starting up a new fad needing money). Now, imagine a pack of 30-40 dogs in an open environment, spending way more time awake with those dogs than their owners M-F. How many tens upon tens upon tens of thousands of _DOG TO DOG_ social interactions do you think I observed?

Way more I observed than any person involved with Sport/Service dogs for three decades if THOSE dogs are their specialty and bulk of dog interaction. And no, I am not tooting my horn. I am tooting dog's horns. Them lil' buddies are incredible socially complex and intelligent for four legged animals. I don't know what kind of dog you have, but unless it is a Sport/Service dog with the drives neccesary to be used be Police/Military/Top Sport Handler & Trainer Hands, well, be yourself.

Be yourself. Teach that dog about YOU, including, if you want, what sit means. Teach it to understand subtleties about you, like a realtion to your tone of voice and your level of frustration. The more you two understand each other, the more you are going to cry when the one way vet trip has to happen ...


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Christopher any chance for an executive summary for the hard at reading - say 1 paragraph or less.

don't mean to diminish yr effort or devalue yr opinion but ahh


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## Christopher Fox (Dec 24, 2009)

I don't take it the wrong way. And don't take this the wrong way: I was. I could write a 50 page paper off of the top of my head of what I have learned about dog social behavior. And don't take this the wrong way:

Twitter sucks. You cannot express thoughts in 140 characters. People cannot not have indepth conversations where one person is trying to express his/her thoughts about a broad subject cannot be done in a couple of sentences. All I can do is try to make it readable for the whole 45-60 seconds it might take to read a longer post.

I thought you wanted to chat about dogs? 

I'm getting ready to go the other way daddy-o. I'm going to expound. More words. More opinions about questions you had concerning training your pup. Startinng with: Don't stress too much about it. It'll come natural if you pay attention to your dog and adapt. More words, next post ...


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## Christopher Fox (Dec 24, 2009)

Consider every mammal. Their are humans, and then immediately after them comes dogs in social complexity and intelligence. After humans, dogs are the most socially sophisticted mammals. Wolves are social idiots and thugs compared to dogs.

This is a niche, this site and the dogs discussed here. Most of the training methods filter down from the top breeders, trainers and handlers. Their advice, although can be applied to make any dog goosestep for ya, is only entirely neccesary on a very small population of dogdom, like the dogs that would never end up in your hands Peter.

So, my point to you was take that advice with a grain of salt as it is tailored for dogs that have been selectively bred from herding to do man work and has been accomplished through prey drive controlled by _abnormal_ rank drive. Essentially creating disloyal opportunists.

You are questioning yourself. That is where you will make your mistakes. You are looking at your pup, your gut is telling you to do one thing, but it is counter to some advice you have read here. I am telling you it is okay to trust your gut. I am not anthropormorphising, but a dog can figure you out faster than a small child. Meaning, unless you have the real thing Service/Sport dog, which you probably don't, you have flexibility.

Think: Guiding your puppy instead of Demanding of it. Don't look to wolves when raising your pup. Look to humans as that is the specie that dogs most closely resemble socially.

Oh, I got a whole bunch more Peter ...


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## Christopher Fox (Dec 24, 2009)

Let me give a perfect example of how Service/Sport techniques are sometimes the worst things to do to some dogs. No personal attacks, no names, but I post this in support of my argument as I consider typical _expert_ Service/Sport advice on training and to show you to first underrstand your dog is probably not as hard and opportunistic as ones ending up in Service or top level Sport Competion and understand your dog before you design a scheme. Also understand that dogs are incredibly socially complex and service and sport dogs, IMO, are some of the least complex and socially intelligent of the hundreds of millions of dogs alive. No insult, an observation anyone is free to disagree with.

The example:

_
We have a year old Great Pyrenees bitch that I have been looking forward to breeding. She is incredibly obedient even to the subtlest commands when she is in your immediate care. However, we live in a hilly rural area and when she is allowed to be unrestrained she completely rebels against any command and runs all over tyrannically barking and disappearing into the hollows. She has somehow escaped every method of restraint no matter how I've chained her. We have yet to complete a farm fence around the yard, but it seems that nothing short of prison fence would contain her. She's jumped several barricades also. Would some method of subduing her barking possibly discourage this over vigilant behavior? I just don't get it. When she has some sort of restraint she has the most pleasant demeanor. I would greatly appreciate your input. I put a lot of stock in what I've followed of your articles.
Sincerely
J.D. 



To begin with this dog is only partially trained. You are missing the most important part of dog training and that's the correction/distraction phase ... Once you understand the principles of obedience training, you then need to determine what method of correction to use (either a prong collar or an electric collar). Which one you use will depend on your training skills. ... Training the recall is not a difficult exercise, but you are going beyond this. You are trying to do this in addition to problem-solve a situation. You are asking about containment, barking and coming. These are three different issues ... Barking can be solved with a No-bark collar ... The Recall needs to be taught under distraction. This is covered in my tape. You ability to accomplish this will depend on you and not the dog. It depends on your consistency and ability to administer effective corrections (a lot of people cannot do this).​_
​


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## Christopher Fox (Dec 24, 2009)

Yikes. Typical Sport/Service methods, but horrible advice for this dog. Bordering on mean and absolutely inappropriate. Here is what I would have said:

_J.D., you picked the wrong dog. You got a pyr, want to breed it, yet are now pissed off that it is acting exactly like a working pyr should. Her running off is her establishing terrority and is genetically hardwired. Her tyrannical barking is genetically hardwired as well. You have ruined her for pasture work at this point, but you should conatact a WORKING Pyr or other LGD breeder and have them assess her for breeding purposes. Then you should get a Lab and both you and the Lab will happier than a pig in shit.

But, if you keep her, her is how to handle things. Get a doghouse. No kennel, no gates, no doggie jail. Good 'ol wooden doghouse. Put it on your porch, by your front door, etc. Next step is to take her damn collar off. Next, every night after the sun goes down, take her outside with you and sit next to the doghouse. Hang out. Do this a few nights in a row and real quick, she'll look at you and say, 'Nah, that's cool, you go on inside. I gots me sum stuff to do out here tonight.'

Pyrs have been selectively bred to be way more nocturnal than most dogs. There job is to be alert and aloof at night and when they here a twig break a mile away, they bark at it. And sometimes, they just sit there and bark, for minutes on end. They are saying, 'Hey all you a-hole predators, I know your out there, and I ain't skeered of a damn one of ya. I'm telling every damn one of ya sneaky basteards that I am right here. And if I catch any of ya here tonight I'm goin' to kill ya.'

Don't like tyrannical barking? Don't get a pyr. As far as the wandering, well, don't get a pyr. Expect 100% recall, or even 50%, don't get a pyr. You will find though, that if you LET her be nocturanl, she will wander much, much less at night. She will stay close to that which she feels compelled to protect, you and your house. She will also be tired more during the day, less wound up, and much less likely to go running off long distances.

No collars, no kennels, just a good 'ol doghouse that she sleeps in at night. Except she won't sleep all that much at night. She'll be sleeping in it during the day._

Lotta words Peter. But for a reason. Your dog is not black and white. Don't stress it, interact with it and understand it and draw from methods on this site to apply, but this ain't a black and white thing, by any means. And some of this advice is dangerous with certain dogs. I know a real deal pyr from the 70's that would, not come up the leash, but look you in the eye and come for your throat if you gave him too many yanks on a prong. I know a 135 lb. Akita today that would do the same thing. Try to kill you harsh corrections.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Christopher Fox said:


> Yikes. Typical Sport/Service methods, but horrible advice for this dog. Bordering on mean and absolutely inappropriate. Here is what I would have said:
> 
> _J.D., you picked the wrong dog. You got a pyr, want to breed it, yet are now pissed off that it is acting exactly like a working pyr should. Her running off is her establishing terrority and is genetically hardwired. Her tyrannical barking is genetically hardwired as well. You have ruined her for pasture work at this point, but you should conatact a WORKING Pyr or other LGD breeder and have them assess her for breeding purposes. Then you should get a Lab and both you and the Lab will happier than a pig in shit.
> 
> ...


Christopher , I've searched the forum but can't find much about your background . Could you tell us a little more about yourself ?


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## Christopher Fox (Dec 24, 2009)

> Christopher , I've searched the forum but can't find much about your background . Could you tell us a little more about yourself ?


Love to. I'm 39, a taurus, enjoy long walks with dogs and think mean people are, well, mean. I am recently retired from a anlmost 2 decade career as a ski bum, financial supplemented intially through bar and nightclub work and then in the latter years the meager wages of a snowcat operator and whitewater raft guide. Spending one year, recovering from a knee surgery, working at a Doggie Daycare about a decade ago.

That is what you are really asking, right Jim? That last part? Where do I get off criticizing the advice of a 40+ year service dog breeder/trainer and stating I think sport/service dog techniques are not the best for a lot of dogs? That they are derived from dealing with disloyal opportunists created by breeding a sheepherder to bite man through prey drive handler controlled through excessive and abnormal rank drive?

I'll iterate:



> I spent a year at a Doggie Daycare about a decade ago. Now, when you are done laughing and consider that dogs allowed in Doggie Daycares 10 years ago aren't today (think a little more Wild West and business owners starting up a new fad needing money). Now, imagine a pack of 30-40 dogs in an open environment, spending way more time awake with those dogs than their owners M-F. How many tens upon tens upon tens of thousands of _DOG TO DOG_ social interactions do you think I observed?


Done the math yet? Keep in mind, that I _was *studying*_ these dogs every minute. And, boy, did they have a lot to say. I picked the pyr example from a 4 decade plus expert as I also have experience with working line pyrs.

Alfons, working line pyr who's glory days were in the 70's. Want pick me up from under that dog's leg? Be ready to have to kill a dog first. No training. The ultimate basket gaurder.

















6' fences were nothing more than something to jump over at will for this dog:









Pyr/BC, my recently departed buddy:

















Neither of these dogs had AKC registered parents and came from working line ranch dogs. I kow working pyr behavior and I know if you throw a prong collar around the neck of that dog in the back of that sweet '72 International pickup, he ain't coming up the leash. He is looking you straight in the eye and coming for your throat.

Be careful using force correcting dogs who's aggression has NOTHING to do with RANK or PREY drive. You might just piss one off.


I came here with an open mind asking questions a while ago, to see what knowledge might be here that I did not already have, but, I know dog behavior very well and understand the complexity and depth of their social intelligence very well. I have opinions, Jim, like yours. Feel free to argue them where you disagree, now that you know more about me and that I like long walks with dogs and think mean people suck ...


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

That was awesome Christopher . I've been hoping to stay away from being the sarcastic prick I've been lately . Glad to see I didn't have to go there . Your post accomplished everything on it's own . 

That's some good shit right there . Going to go out and give my dog a treat and have a long talk with him . I had no idea they had some much to say and were so well spoken too .


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Christopher Fox said:


> Yikes. Typical Sport/Service methods, but horrible advice for this dog. Bordering on mean and absolutely inappropriate. Here is what I would have said:
> 
> _J.D., you picked the wrong dog. You got a pyr, want to breed it, yet are now pissed off that it is acting exactly like a working pyr should. Her running off is her establishing terrority and is genetically hardwired. Her tyrannical barking is genetically hardwired as well. You have ruined her for pasture work at this point, but you should conatact a WORKING Pyr or other LGD breeder and have them assess her for breeding purposes. Then you should get a Lab and both you and the Lab will happier than a pig in shit._
> 
> ...


Absolutely agree as to the Pyr.


T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Christopher Fox said:


> I don't take it the wrong way. And don't take this the wrong way: I was. I could write a 50 page paper off of the top of my head of what I have learned about dog social behavior. And don't take this the wrong way:
> 
> Twitter sucks. You cannot express thoughts in 140 characters. People cannot not have indepth conversations where one person is trying to express his/her thoughts about a broad subject cannot be done in a couple of sentences. All I can do is try to make it readable for the whole 45-60 seconds it might take to read a longer post.
> 
> ...


 
Awesome!!!! Glad to see minimalism language skills and censorship don't impact. Gotta go to club training but will further enjoy later. Hope you stick around.


T


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Im confused....


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Awesome!!!! Glad to see minimalism language skills and censorship don't impact. Gotta go to club training but will further enjoy later. Hope you stick around.
> 
> 
> T


I think we are seeing something special here . This is a match made in heaven . Imagine the novels their kids will write .


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Sparked by Christopher's new insight , I went out and spoke with my dog . I asked him if everything was all right ? Had I told him how special he was and that I loved him enough ? Was there anything I missed that he was trying to tell me that I never picked up on ?

He looked me in the eyes , paused and said ; " I'm a dog mother****er , you need help . " . 

Then he pissed on my leg and nonchalantly went back into his doghouse . Therapy starts tomorrow .


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Jim Nash said:


> I think we are seeing something special here . This is a match made in heaven . Imagine the novels their kids will write .


 
Yeah, they won't tremble when they see more than 3 sentence paragraphs. And if they disagree with someone's opinion they will be secure enough to offerr an alternative or skip it instead of bully tactic sarcastic dribble. I really can't believe that it has come to try to shut down any thread and any person that post because you disagree or you think it should all be about how you view dogs and heaven forbid if someone has read something. 


T


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

I can't wade through that stuff again.....
First off, the dog is not the most social adapt after the human.
Secondly, humans have been 'bending' the canine species toward (what has been referred to as) one dimensional purposes for hundreds of years. So those 'one dimensional dogs' are not anomalies by any stretch of the imagination.

Peter, don't worry about the nuts and bolts so much.
Stay engaged with the dog, it'll all work out.


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## Christopher Fox (Dec 24, 2009)

> I've been hoping to stay away from being the sarcastic prick I've been lately .


Well, Jim, it is apparent to the rest of us that you failed miserably in your first post. And now that you found out that that behavior doesn't phase me, you are laying it on even more. Put an e-collar on Jim, give me the button and I'll correct you evertime you are one. Two zaps so far from two posts. More zaps from further reading of your post?

Look, I'm not here trolling nor here to attack any person or any person's _intenitons_ or to randomly hurl insults at dog breeds. I have a passion for dogs, like you and I have some strong opinions about them. And I know some folks here may not agree with or _like_ them. However, should that prevent us from discussing them? I don't think so. But ...


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## Christopher Fox (Dec 24, 2009)

> I think we are seeing something special here . This is a match made in heaven . Imagine the novels their kids will write


And there is zap number three.



> Sparked by Christopher's new insight , I went out and spoke with my dog . I asked him if everything was all right ? Had I told him how special he was and that I loved him enough ? Was there anything I missed that he was trying to tell me that I never picked up on ?
> 
> He looked me in the eyes , paused and said ; " I'm a dog mother****er , you need help . " .


And... #4, right on cue. C'mon dude, I'm only at the #5 setting, please don't make me crank up the volts.



> Then he pissed on my leg and nonchalantly went back into his doghouse . Therapy starts tomorrow


Lemme guess ... is it a GSD or Mal? Maybe a rottie? Nothing wrong with your dog Jim, that is how he was bred to act. Don't want a disloyal opportunist pissing on your leg? Don't get one; get a different dog.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Christopher Fox said:


> Look, I'm not here *trolling nor here to attack any person* or any person's _intenitons_ *or to randomly hurl insults at dog breeds.*


really? seems like you are really fixated on Jim.

*and* that you have no problems hurling insults at dog breeds...lol

what is it that you have against Rottweilers, German Shepherds, an Mals?


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## Christopher Fox (Dec 24, 2009)

> Yeah, they won't tremble when they see more than 3 sentence paragraphs.


I'm not quite sure what his problem with that comment of yours was either... People seem to be afraid to read anymore, regardless of the subject. A little disconcerting for society IMO.



> And if they disagree with someone's opinion they will be secure enough to offerr an alternative or skip it instead of bully tactic sarcastic dribble.


A glaring absence of critique of my thoughts, merely personal attacks to be sure. Oh well. Ceratinly expected on my part Terrasita as obviously yours.

Pyrs are pyrs, aren't they? No point trying to make one miserable by forcing it to be something it is not. And yes, be careful using force to make a dog do something it was _never_ bred for, especially when said dog _*was*_ bred to administer violence at its own discretion, and not tied at all to prey or rank drives. Like a real deal pyr. Like a real deal American Akita. Playing with fire.

Plus, it is wholly inappropriate for these dogs.


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## Christopher Fox (Dec 24, 2009)

> First off, the dog is not the most social adapt after the human.


We obviously disagree. I attribute this to you not having the experiences with dogs I have. Very few people have. Closest would be foxhound keepers. You don't need to argue it, but don't leave me hangin'. #2 for you is?

For me #2 is dogs. #3 isn't *even close*. Dogs are very socially complex with their _own_ species and *their is no other mammal who's sole survival is so closely tied to being accepted by another species*.

That's a big part of why I think so. Plus seeing things a whole bunch of ya haven't and never will ...




> Secondly, humans have been 'bending' the canine species toward (what has been referred to as) one dimensional purposes for hundreds of years. So those 'one dimensional dogs' are not anomalies by any stretch of the imagination.


Not my argument. I was merely _labeling_ that dimension in sport/service dogs. Not bending either - selectively breeding.


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## Christopher Fox (Dec 24, 2009)

> Im confused....


Let me help you out. Peter asked for advice and conversation. I gave him both.

The advice being, don't follow all the advice you read on this site. And understand most dogs have not been bred to be disloyal opportunists and you don;t need to treat it as such. And to be *careful* with some it on certain types of dogs so you don't end up with a 100lbs + dog trying to kill you. And that your dog is much smarter than Jim thinks ...


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## Christopher Fox (Dec 24, 2009)

> really? seems like you are really fixated on Jim.


Really? Seems like _you_ are fixated on _me_. Tha's cool though. I don't mind Toby. We all no the score. Jim was a smartass, then I was, and now you are. And, well, still don't phase me.



> *and* that you have no problems hurling insults at dog breeds...lol


Don't confuse an insult with a clinical observation. Disloyal opportunist is precisely that - my clinical observation. More of an insult would be to say I f'ing hate Akitas. I don't understand why people want them doggies - nothing but a liability and as trustworthy as any north eastern Asian breed. But boy, do I have soft spot in my heart for a big ogre named Kaz. Special dog - it is the Mastiff in him. Same thing I have seen mastiff owners ridculed for describing. Big ogre, preening my face, nibbling my nose with his teeth.

No need for a prong. Work the mastiff in him. Plus, Akita Inu's have jack shit for human bite inhibition. Mix that with his mastiff blood, real deal mastiff blood thrown in in the 1800's for, and well, DO NOT PUT A PRONG COLLAR ON THIS DOG AND ATTEMPT TO ADMINISTER A LEVEL 10 CORRECTION!!!!!

You are risking serious injury. But, even though I hate Akitas, don't know why meatheads are still breeding 135 lb killers in their backyard, but they do, and I know a special one and he digs the crap out of me and has nothing but respect for me - NO DISLOYAL OPPORTUNISTIC tendancies I must watch for. Completely subordinate to me, loves the absolute crap out of me and cannot get emough of my affection and attention. Don't try to lay a finger on me while he is next to me though. No training. And f'ing Akita's, DO NOT let any dog get within his reach as he will kill it. I hate Akitas.

No insult. My clinical opinoin of the result of breeding a sheepherding dog to do manwork - only way is for abnormal rank to HAVE to be there. You like that sorta thing? That's cool. I don't though. Nor do I think it suitable for PPD work.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Christopher Fox said:


> Really? Seems like _you_ are fixated on _me_. Tha's cool though. I don't mind Toby. We all no the score. Jim was a smartass, then I was, and now you are. And, well, still don't phase me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I dont follow...so you think mals gsds and rottweilers are bred to be disloyal and have abnormal rank drive, and are not suitable for protection work?? and that is your clinical observation?

but the loyal, regal Pyr will go for your throat if you correct him??

and just to let you know chris, I only posted one post directed towards you, stating an observation I made, I would hardly call that fixation...lighten up dude..


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## Christopher Fox (Dec 24, 2009)

Oh yea.



> what is it that you have against Rottweilers, German Shepherds, an Mals?


I personally do not like the rank drive in them. I know a big ppd worked rottie named Vinny. I wanted to see what would happen one day if I moved from the chair to the floor. Some of you already alrady know. For those that don't well, that asshole tried to mount me. Not my thing. I get on the floor with that 135lb (at least) Akita and his big goofy ass comes over and licks my face and lays down next to me to be petted.

I don't prefer to live with dogs I need to tell what size turd the can lay at what time. Feel free to yourself though, your choice.

Nothing _against_ the dogs Toby. Something against applying how these dogs need to be dealt and kept to most of the rest of the dogs out there though. For reasons ranging from it being uneccesary resulting in an owner being a doggie dick to it being flat out dangerous in the hands of newbies with certain dogs. And non-newbies with certain dogs. That's all. And the perceived insult was my reasoning. Disloyal opportunists that must be handled differently - and much less complexly as they ain't so socially sharp compared to most doggies ...

Dogs are complex as hell socially. Unbeleivably so. Well, most are.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Christopher Fox said:


> My clinical opinoin of the result of breeding a sheepherding dog to do manwork - only way is for abnormal rank to HAVE to be there. You like that sorta thing? That's cool. I don't though. Nor do I think it suitable for PPD work.


 
I'm curious what sheep herding dog/breed you are referring to. What is "abnormal rank" drive to you. Also, which breed is unsuitable to PPD work and why?


Terrasita


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I'm curious what sheep herding dog/breed you are referring to. What is "abnormal rank" drive to you. Also, which breed is unsuitable to PPD work and why?
> 
> 
> Terrasita


I assume it is the rottweiler, gsd, and mali, and most likely the dutch shepherd as well...those are the breeds that have been bred to have traits that are not acceptable for protection dogs, from what I gather, could be wrong though...

Christopher, try to answer a question directly...

What breeds do you think are more suitable for Protection than the breeds you described as having this rank drive, that are disloyal?

is a Pyr loyal, if it goes for your throat for correcting it?


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## Christopher Fox (Dec 24, 2009)

> I dont follow...so you think mals gsds and rottweilers are bred to be disloyal and have abnormal rank drive, and are not suitable for protection work?? and that is your clinical observation?


No. I think they _are_ disloyal opportunists. Not bred to be. The result of breeding a sheepherding dog to do man work. The result of the hyped prey drive _needing_ hyped rank drive as a control mechanism for aggression. And no, I personally do not consider it suitable nor the best way to approach PPDs. Not sport/service, but PPDs. For a few reasons.

The bigger point is not to insult, merely to give my opinion that the methods you use are not appropriate for some dogs and can be dangerous with others. And to proffer my opinion about how damn smart all dem lil' doggies are. A lot smarter than most think. I dig 'em.




> but the loyal, regal Pyr will go for your throat if you correct him??


No. The real deal working line LGD bred to instinctively engage in VIOLENCE WITH THE INTENT TO KILL *PURELY* AT HIS *OWN* DISCRETION and *NEVER SELECTED FOR OBIDIENCE* a very, very, very independent minded dog bred to literally kill that which he considers a THREAT.

Don't make Alfons think you are a threat dude ... Ain't got jack shit to do with loyalty or regalty. It has to do with this dogs natural inclination to administer lethal violence when he perceives a threat. No rank, no prey involved. And yea, you ain't touchin' that kid without killin him first and that ain't loyalty, that is natural mastiff type behavior - instinctual. I have seen some mastiff owners on this site that will tell you the same thing as they live with and understand them.

They too try to argue how deep thinking their dogs are ... 

Same with that Akita. No bite inhibition mixed with Dog of War. Plus a prong collar and level 10 corrections? Are you high? That is a how one those jokes goes that starts with:

What's the last thing one ******* said to the other *******?
'Hey, ya'll, throw me another budweiser and watch me give my big f'ing Akita a level 10 with a prong collar ...'


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## Christopher Fox (Dec 24, 2009)

> I'm curious what sheep herding dog/breed you are referring to.


GSDs and Mals predominantly. The two that are best suited, due to their physical herding lineage for sport/service work. Rotties too though, I consider them a droving dog.



> What is "abnormal rank" drive to you.


What you find in your average dog decended from stock work involved in service/sport work. Not LGD, but prey based stock work. I think we all understand that all of these dogs, GSDs, Rotties, Mals, Schnauzers, etc., are all pretty rank, relatively.

More generally as a rule or definition, is that rank manifesting in an opportunist dog who, all the way through adulthood must have its life regimented, with little discretion and _choice_ for itself. I ain't a benevolent dictator. That is wolf stuff. I give da doggies personal liberties and freedoms and free will as they are smart enough to handle it. Most of them. Rules too. And I'm still the boss.

I know you have read things on this site from mastiff owners Terrasita. They get at it when talking about their dogs. Mostly, though, are my conclusions from observing probably over 100 dogs with a stable core of 20 or so interact in a cohesive pack with a very well defined, very, very complex _rank_ structure.

The rank needed to control aggression through prey drive is much less sophisticated. Found in a very small population of dogs, a niche, and kept there, else there would be no way to control the dog's aggression. Most dogs are not like this, working or not, hence my using abnormal, as it not like most of the rest.



> Also, which breed is unsuitable to PPD work and why?


Mastiffs, bully breeds, apbts, LGD's (If you have acreage and live in the boonies and are worried about tresspassers intending ill). If you are single and experienced with dogs a real deal American Akita is one of the best, no training, will put teeth in a human dogs out there. If somebodies 100 lb. rottie jumps a fence, and Akita will save you from that threat too. And walk home with you. (Akitas don't fight out of rank drive.)

If you put me on the spot and told me to pick one dog that I felt assured I had the best chance of protecting me, with zero training, against any threat, man or dog, it would be a 120lb+ male, unaltered Akita. But, they ain't suitable around kids and are a hell of a liabiltiy, so you need to know what you are doing to walk around with one of those in public.

A dog who's aggression is NOT triggered through drive and controlled through rank. The point about sheepherdrs is that man dogs have been around for centuries. No need to try to reinvent the wheel with a prey/rank based dog.

Further, a GSD or Mal ain't got enough holding its ass down. Awesome athletic skills, but make NO MISTAKE that many humans are GAME AS HELL and a 60lb dog ain't going to survive a bare handed encounter with a pissed off 200lb man enraged. Rotties got more game, but a man WILL fight for his life and as soon as that rottie senses he might be out ranked ...

An Akita, a mastiff, an apbt, bully breeds, they do not think rank will engaged in fighting. They will fight to the death. GSDs, Mals, Rotties, Schanuazers, etc, will fight until outranked.

The results of trying to make man dogs based from prey and rank. The only way it can be done with herding/droving dogs IMO.

It is the temperment mostly though.


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## Christopher Fox (Dec 24, 2009)

> I'm curious what sheep herding dog/breed you are referring to.


GSDs and Mals predominantly. The two that are best suited, due to their physical herding lineage for sport/service work. Rotties too though, I consider them a droving dog.



> What is "abnormal rank" drive to you.


What you find in your average dog decended from stock work involved in service/sport work. Not LGD, but prey based stock work. I think we all understand that all of these dogs, GSDs, Rotties, Mals, Schnauzers, etc., are all pretty rank, relatively.

More generally as a rule or definition, is that rank manifesting in an opportunist dog who, all the way through adulthood must have its life regimented, with little discretion and _choice_ for itself. I ain't a benevolent dictator. That is wolf stuff. I give da doggies personal liberties and freedoms and free will as they are smart enough to handle it. Most of them. Rules too. And I'm still the boss.

I know you have read things on this site from mastiff owners Terrasita. They get at it when talking about their dogs. Mostly, though, are my conclusions from observing probably over 100 dogs with a stable core of 20 or so interact in a cohesive pack with a very well defined, very, very complex _rank_ structure.

The rank needed to control aggression through prey drive is much less sophisticated. Found in a very small population of dogs, a niche, and kept there, else there would be no way to control the dog's aggression. Most dogs are not like this, working or not, hence my using abnormal, as it not like most of the rest.



> Also, which breed is unsuitable to PPD work and why?


Mastiffs, bully breeds, apbts, LGD's (If you have acreage and live in the boonies and are worried about tresspassers intending ill). If you are single and experienced with dogs a real deal American Akita is one of the best, no training, will put teeth in a human dogs out there. If somebodies 100 lb. rottie jumps a fence, and Akita will save you from that threat too. And walk home with you. (Akitas don't fight out of rank drive.)

If you put me on the spot and told me to pick one dog that I felt assured I had the best chance of protecting me, with zero training, against any threat, man or dog, it would be a 120lb+ male, unaltered Akita. But, they ain't suitable around kids and are a hell of a liabiltiy, so you need to know what you are doing to walk around with one of those in public.

A dog who's aggression is NOT triggered through drive and controlled through rank. The point about sheepherdrs is that man dogs have been around for centuries. No need to try to reinvent the wheel with a prey/rank based dog.

Further, a GSD or Mal ain't got enough holding its ass down. Awesome athletic skills, but make NO MISTAKE that many humans are GAME AS HELL and a 60lb dog ain't going to survive a bare handed encounter with a pissed off 200lb man enraged. Rotties got more game, but a man WILL fight for his life and as soon as that rottie senses he might be out ranked ...

An Akita, a mastiff, an apbt, bully breeds, they do not think rank will engaged in fighting. They will fight to the death. GSDs, Mals, Rotties, Schanuazers, etc, will fight until outranked.

The results of trying to make man dogs based from prey and rank. The only way it can be done with herding/droving dogs IMO.

It is the temperment mostly though.


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## Christopher Fox (Dec 24, 2009)

Who was that that said pups just like to snooze and shit? Not Josie. We did all kinds 'o stuff. Worked on all kinds of things. Like 'Hold it', 'Lets go', 'This way', 'Keep going' on our walk. Long walks ... good dog bonding stuff there. And, of course, stop biting my hands and arms and legs now you little shit, I can't take it no mo you little heeler puppy. And today, Josie even learned the proper way to share an ice cram cone, wait your turn, nice licks, not greedy, opportunistic chomps. It ain't _either_ MINE or YOURS Josie, it is *OURS*, to share, 'cause you are a hell of a lot smarter, even at 13 weeks, than a wolf and a knucklehead eatin' an ice cream cone with a working line, ranch raised red heeler is not anything resembling an affair that involves anything to do with rank... way above that.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

hi all been huntin got some good pics will put up when i get a chance;

so whats all these pages that sprung up here, can anyone give me a SHORT version of the gist of it. no way in hell i'm reading al them words not even if baby jesus just typed them speaking of how to predict the next lottery ticket.


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## Christopher Fox (Dec 24, 2009)

In tweet and text terms, real deal sport service dogs are the most disloyal and opportunistic dogs I have seen. A result of man work stemming from prey drive controlled by rank drive. Becuase of that, you must tell it what size turd it can lay at what time for all of its life or you will be staring that rank disloyalty in the face at some point.

You, and no insult at all, probably do not have one of the worst. The ones that would have never left the hands of professionals and ended up in the hands of ehthusiasts. Your dog is probably more intelligent and sohisticated socially than the average service dog - treat it with respect that acknowledges that. Therefore, do not follow every piece of advice on this forum and do not stress about things such as when to add verbal cues. My pup has been getting nonstop verbal cues since the day I took her from her littermates.

Have fun with your dog Peter. Understand that alot of these 'special must do this way with a pup at this age or else...' stuff is a niche. Don't be a doggie dick if you don't have to and certainly don't be one if your objective is sport or to turn a sheepherder into a PPD.

And if you have a real PPD breed, don't start running volts of electricty through its neck or level 10 prong collar stuff when it doesn't shit on cpmmand as it might just decide to try to kill you. For real.

People spent years toning down the bite of herders for centuries. Gsds and Mals were grippers. Nibblers. Grip - not full mouth bite, do not let go and shake like hell. That dog would have been culled with a rock to the head out in the field by a shepard. That is why must do this this way at this time for prey and bite work is there - dogs were selectively bred to NOT bite, or if they did to ONLY grip.

Now people have tried to UNDO that selective breeding by going backwards with sheepherders. Can't be done without creating unnatrally disloyal, rank, opportiunists. Backwards in time rank, a devolution, which demands a more thuggish approach to cohabitation with your buddy.

Guess that wasn't really text and tweet length, but it is the best I can do. I can,however, keep expounding ...


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## Christopher Fox (Dec 24, 2009)

Oh yea. The first thing you need to do for your pup is to stop being frigthened to read. I see a pattern here Peter ... you want people to tell you how to handle your dog and knwo you want people to tell you how to think.

Think for yourself Peter, and then allow your pup to do the same ...


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## Christopher Fox (Dec 24, 2009)

More about PPD Terrasita. I mentioned Akitas as what I have come across as the most natural go get the _average_ one and no training and there ya go.  Instant PPD dog. The requirements I would place on PPD are the following:

Protect me from any human that puts his/her hands on me. By protect I mean "Chomper, sick balls". And don't stop, _even if_ that guy is punching, kicking, hit the dog with 2x4's, etc. Sick balls until bad guy is dead or running the other way and you are tired of chasing him.

Protect me from any animal, from bears (yes my dogs run off bears - and yes, I have no doubt this little heeler at my feet will do just fine at that even at 35lbs or so fully grown) to a wandering 100lb+ rank rottie, like one I know named Vinny, who might have escaped his kennel or a couple wandering pitbulls.

Provide intimidation factor in appearance so as to lessen the chances for violence all around.

You need a dog that does not have bite inhibition but has _natural discretion_ over that bite. Like Alfons in the back of that pickup with me and my older bro. Like Kaz, the ogre American Akita that digs the crap out of me, without rank being a part of it, a much more volitale and dangerous Alfons. Both of those dogs are well over 100 lbs.

You need that for a man dog. A dog well, over 100lbs. I am 6'1"/190. Kaz's, the heavily mastiffed akita, froearms below his elbow are as big around in circumference as my own arms below the elbow. No exaggeration. That is alot, alot more force and pressure from things other than teeth that dog can apply over a herder.

Look, don't take this wrong way, the wrong way being a knucklehead who is almost 40 sounding like a 16 year old. Here goes ... send your biggest baddest GSD or Mal after me for a death match and I will kill it with my bare hands. For real. Yes, I will be needing the assitance of surgeons to repair some bite damage, but an 85 lb dog with ONE weapon is not enough to take my and my superior strength, number of weapons and brain.

And I, personally am game as hell and do not fight out of prey or rank either. A 135 lb Akita? Umm, I'm a little scared Terrasita. Well a lot scared. That dog, with his massive size, strength, skeltal structure has a good chance of getting me to the ground, and once he does he is instantly going to for my neck and if he does, I literally have a couple seconds to get his mouth off of my neck before I am dead.

I know guys, a lot of pain from that 85lb. GSD. I also have had 5 orthopaedic surgeries, half a dozen broken bones, need back surgery, neck surgery, etc. I know pain. I know what it feels like when bones break, tendons and ligaments tear, etc. I am a dumbass. I have crashed going way too fast on too many things.

I know what I got Terrasita. I know I can t-bone cars at 45 mph on motorcycles and pick up my back when I can breath again. I know I can break an ankle, ride a dirt bike for 3 hours after that and than a 5 hour drive to hospital and look an x-ray tech in the eye and tell him, 'You ain't cuttin that mx boot off, I just bought those. Pull it off, it is already broke and I can take it.'. I can rip apart ribs, tear cartlidge, ligaments and bruise bone in my legs and walk, a long ways through waist deep snow afterwards.

And I know that if some 55lb to 90lb GSD or Mal attachs itself to my arm, I can handle the pain long enough to kill it, 'cause the first thing I'm going to do is get real, real pissed. I am going into Fight Drive out of anger and defense, like a mastiff, not out of prey and rank.

I'm not special Terrasita. Humans are tough as hell too. Not just me, but a whole,whole bunch. Good people and bad.

Bad like criminals...

But first, folks, mods, I have a bit say, some strong opinions, and do not demand anyone accepts them. I am merely voicing them for consumption and I am not here to attack anyone or anyone's character or anyone's intentions, etc.

Just this knuckleheads honest opinion, some of which is drastically different then most of yours, again not in intent but in my _analysis of end results in the real world_. And I do not immediately dislike or have personal issue with any of you nor question any one of your personal characters.

Don't take it such. Please. So before I talk more about GSDs and bad guys in the next post, know that my old man is retired Federal Law Enforcement, retired from early 90's, and I was raised with and still maintain the utmost respect for the _tradition_ of law enforcement in teh U.S.


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## Christopher Fox (Dec 24, 2009)

So, Terrasita, to go further with my _opinion_ that not only the prey-rank thing with GSDs and Mals, but the physical size and structure is not appropriate for PPD work, for man work.

'Cause I know some of them Police dogs have gotten their asses kicked Terrasita. My old man arrested his fair share of drug dealers and worked with multiple muncipalities in the Denver Metro area and more specifically a lot of their handlers.

Every thing I know dates back to the early 90's. Denver was still notoriously rough in their use of force, a tradition that was undeniable and came to a close in those same 90's. Keep that in mind and absolutely not do I assume any one here to approve engage in or anything like that.

Just facts I know pertinant to my argument. Those facts being that Police dogs HAVE gotten their asses kicked by perps. And the dog was ruined. No longer able to be a Police dog from that moment on, from the moment it learned, "Oh shit, the decoy OUTRANKS ME!!!". Say buh-bye to fight drive, eh? Well, no longer useful unless the handler commands the dog to bite the perp once he is subdued by HUMANS and is handcuffed on the ground.

This has happened. The only point is to show that they are to small and prey-rank aggression is NO GOOD for man work and is unreliable.

Me, personally, after the final piece of a puzzle was handed to me by a sharp little 10 year old boy from half way across the world, I don't really approve of any man dog being in the hands of any civil police force, including my own. Bloodhounds and SARs and that is it.

No offense, guys, no demeaning of character of any K9 cop, nothing like that. My opinions is all that I am trying to present civilly and intelligently.

Mastiffs are the Dogs of War. They are the man dogs. And there is a very, very, good reason that they are usually well over 100lbs and the most densely and heavily structured dogs. They have to be to engage a Game Human with Fight Drive based out of anger and defense.

Don't reinvent the wheel... Reviltalize working mastiffs.


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## Christopher Fox (Dec 24, 2009)

That's right, ANGER Drive. Some mastiff owners understand this. Dogs get angry, pissed. It ain't just defense. Dogs are complex, very complex. The get pissed, irritated, frustrated, flat out f'ing mad as hel and on and on.

Just like us... Be yourslef Peter, yer doggie will get it.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Christopher , you are trying way too hard .


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Awesome!!!! Glad to see minimalism language skills and censorship don't impact. Gotta go to club training but will further enjoy later. Hope you stick around.
> 
> 
> T


=D>


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Uhhhh Christopher, I don't believe you are quite up on what GSDs were bred for and how they were used--particularly regarding selection for grip in the sheep herding/management capacity. I don't think you understand the guard history either in the sheepherding context or in terms of how they related to their shepherd/owner and guard. The man dog came from the stock dog because of similar drives and traits. There are other drives in a GSD that have nothing to do with prey and rank [still don't get what you really mean by this] agression. Nor are they all disloyal rank opportunists. Outside of doggie day care observation of dog-to-dog relationships and particularly in the spay/neuter population, have you yourself lived with a GSD from puppyhood to old age? You mention the sport/service context and I can only guess that you mean LE service. What I consider rank is genetic handler aggression. What has defined a GSD is his utmost loyalty to his pack so where you got disloyal opportunists as a breed is beyond me. However, that said, it is surprising on this forum how handler aggression is tolerated. I think certain breeds have been bred beyond their historic breed traits to suit what someone thought was desirable for military, sport, law enforcement; and training for artificial situations. You used to select for an instinctual package that knew when certain actions were called upon. Now you need to be able to command certain activities without an instinctual trigger and you train for that through this heightened prey/aggression drive because otherwise you couldn't trigger the dog in an artificial situation that is not based on pack and social structure.


Terrasita


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

so the pyr and the akita, that according to Christopher, will supposedly try to KILL their owners for correcting them with a pinch collar, do not have any rank issues?

but the herders that deal with training corrections well for the most part, have severe rank problems?

is this making sense to anyone?


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> so the pyr and the akita, that according to Christopher, will supposedly try to KILL their owners for correcting them with a pinch collar, do not have any rank issues?
> 
> but the herders that deal with training corrections well for the most part, have severe rank problems?
> 
> is this making sense to anyone?


From what I know from an Akita handler, they can be pretty rank and unpredictable from day to day as to what they will tolerate. As for Pyrs, unless a human was going to try to make off with one of their sheep, they don't fit Chris' description.  How the Pyr relates to animals can be different from man. They will guard the sheep from man. The one that I know of might let you in the pasture and you were fine if you didn't reach for one of the sheep. But they guage. Level one was to grab the guy's arm. Didn't go further because the guy backed off. As far as handling from the owner or even me for that matter--no sign of objection, aggression, etc. Of course I don't know of anyone that thought they would put a pinch collar on one either and I've never tried to force something on the one that I know. No need. 


T


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

don't know if this has anything to do with it but i heard Don Yarnell state in a recorded seminar that - i am using quaotation marks here but this may not be EXACT words - but close enough, apologies for any mistakes;

"everything we do [referring to PSD work] comes from herding"

he even stated that all the training he learned never made any sense and he rejected the lot untill he saw a GSD herding then he invented his own system of training PSD's based entirely on herding instincts.

thats what he said


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> don't know if this has anything to do with it but i heard Don Yarnell state in a recorded seminar that - i am using quaotation marks here but this may not be EXACT words - but close enough, apologies for any mistakes;
> 
> "everything we do [referring to PSD work] comes from herding"
> 
> ...


Yeah well when its 200-1000 lbs in get the handler, get the dog mode, you will understand nerves of steel, defense of handler, defense of self, fight drive, ultimate pack loyalty, etc. When the dog sees it before the handler was even aware and steps up to the plate, you understand what the guide dog people refer to as taking responsibility. When the dog instinctively handles the know nothing lamb different [maternal/paternal] and reads when to bite and when not to--all that judgment stuff comes into play. They have an ability to read a situation and know what's necessary--nothing more, nothing less. I know some herding rotties and a bouvier I'd say the same about. Wait until you have to deal with rank livestock. Then you will see the scope of the dog.

T


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

"Yeah well when its 200-1000 lbs in get the handler, get the dog mode, you will understand nerves of steel..."

T u know nothing about me or what i've done, evrything is not just an internet game for kid-dults.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> "Yeah well when its 200-1000 lbs in get the handler, get the dog mode, you will understand nerves of steel..."
> 
> T u know nothing about me or what i've done, evrything is not just an internet game for kid-dults.


 
I actually I have no idea what you are talking about above. The "you" wasn't "you" if that's what you mean. It was collective. My point was to agree from the GSD perspective about the man dog coming from the herding dog and why---its because of the stock situations they face and have to manage.

Geesh. . .

T


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## Christopher Fox (Dec 24, 2009)

Don't forget about trust Peter. A disloyal opportunist cannot be trusted and will not trust you. That is why they need to be handled and trained in a back and white fashion. It may respect your dictatorship, but that is different than trust.

The absolute very first thing I worked on with my new pup was trust. That's not obidience, it is not rank ground rules. It is trust. And if your dog trust you, the is the biggest step you can make in obdience training. Again, I assume you to NOT have a top notch service/sport dog - those don't leave top notch hands. So, I assume that one of the reasons your dog was a wash out, why you have it instead of Jeff Ohlsen or a K9 cop is that is probably more normal, more social complex.

Bond with puppy and teach it everyday. That is more importtatn for that dog than learning how to bite properly. Remember sport and club PPD is FOR YOUR ENJOYMENT, NOT YOUR DOGS!!!!

That's cool if that's yo' thang, but you don't need to make your dog goosestep if it is as I believe you are DEPRIVING your dog of the social interactions it WANTS.

I knew a real nice GSD named Kassie. Nice straight backed small 55lb bitch from working lines. Working lines, great GSD typical behavior, great watch dog and awesome COMPANION for her owner. Not good enough for service or top notch sport though.

One of the reasons she weren't no good was 'cause she was way too socially complex. I had a lot of fun with her and she wasn't even my dog (and no, not suitable at all for a doggie daycare, so I did not know her from there either).

I am a dog advocate Peter. You probably have a Kassie. Treat her/him right, not with absolute dictatorship nor with too much fear about screwing up. And ya know what Peter, I ain't too worried for you yet. I know your dog is pretty damn smart. I also know, at this point, that he/she probably has a longer attention span than you. He/she'll firgue you out and make it work, your only task is not to confuse the heck out of her too much and make her/him think you are nuts by running to a forum everyother day to try to correct things that are not things.

Advice and food for though is what you find here Peter, not steadfast rules to switch through like underwear when you think they may not be working...


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## Christopher Fox (Dec 24, 2009)

Trying to hard at what? Voicing my opinion? Umm, okay Jim ...

I don't expect most to agree with what I say dude. 'Cause I _know_ there is a whole bunch I _know_ about dogs that you don't. From your remarks alone I know this.

No big secret here Jim. I am a dude who is passionate about dogs, spend more time with dogs than people, and like to talk about dogs. And I have some unique experiences with dogs most don't. And I like to talk about that stuff to.

Just so I am clear, as right now I do not know what you are talking about other than you are still doing that prick thing you were trying to stay away from:

_What, praytell, do you assume I am trying to do?_


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## Christopher Fox (Dec 24, 2009)

> Uhhhh Christopher, I don't believe you are quite up on what GSDs were bred for and how they were used--particularly regarding selection for grip in the sheep herding/management capacity.


Bring me up to date then. No herding eh? Grip in sheep? i don't nderstand it Terrasita? I most certainly do. I most certainly know that any rancher or cowboy would put a bullet in the head of any dog that gripped his livestock the way service/sport dogs grip. Period. I know the dogs in service/sport are INCAPABLE of herding as they have been DEVOLVED and will DESTROY AND KILL LIVESTOCK.

Yea, I know much more about the way BCs and Heelers herd for sure and do not mind admitting ignorance to the 'living fence' GSD methodology. But I know that any real sport/service dog can't herd - they would KILL.

Selection for grip is simple - don't f' up the sheep. I know some herding GSDs have there teeth filed down 'cause they are a little too hard with their grip.



> I don't think you understand the guard history either in the sheepherding context or in terms of how they related to their shepherd/owner and guard.


No, I do. See the teeth filing comment above and my comment about Kassie, a good GSD. A good WATCH dog. Ain't enough holdin' their asses down Terrasita.

Look around the world. Look at the size of LGDs all over the globe. Alfons would kill any GSD that set foot on his property. Because he was hardwired to kill any predator on his territory, including other dogs.

That's a gaurd dog. A GSD is a Watch dog. A GSD couldn't gaurd anything from me or a wolf. A real deal pyr could.



> The man dog came from the stock dog because of similar drives and traits.


Uhhh, maybe the LGD stock dog, but not a herding or droving stock dog. Mastiffs go back to aomething like 2000 BC. Pyrs are a unique isolated offshoot. Very old breed. Gaurding breed.

To me a stock dog and a LGD dog are different. LGDs and molassors are where man dogs came from, not herders and drovers.

And LGDs and molssors are older than stock dogs, so, uh, we disagree on that.

Man dogs kill. Stock dogs don't. Man dogs are violent out of gameness and defense. Stock dogs are violent out of prey. Man dogs are big, dense, heavily structred dogs. Stock dogs are light and athletic and nimble. Man dogs derive their energy from danger and are otherwise passive. Stock dogs derive their energy from being wired hyper.

Could keep going. Precisely what similar traits and drives are you talking about? I don't see them.



> Nor are they all disloyal rank opportunists.


We disagre. 



> Outside of doggie day care observation of dog-to-dog relationships and particularly in the spay/neuter population, have you yourself lived with a GSD from puppyhood to old age


Yes. Archie. Pet quality GSDs are good dogs. Still opportunistic as hell, and sneaky about it, but loyal and complex. Pet quality means one not in a K9 cop or TOP LEVEL competition hands. Most every GSD out there.

Kaz has his. So does Vinny. Kassie was never spayed, yet that poor girl had her stomach turn at 7.5 a couple years ago. Raw diet for my pup ...

I have also been around several other packs. I have had up to 5 adult dogs at one time. No leashes, no collars, no kennels, no fences. Front door to come and go as they please where they pleased, when they pleased. I also have had a dog consciencly change packs to mine. Not just doggie daycare Terrasita, although, that was a treasure trove of information in of itself.

But, Terrasita, I understand the complexity of dogs more than most, it seems. And the methods and techniques employed by experts tells me everything I need to know.



> You mention the sport/service context and I can only guess that you mean LE service.


I mean ring and police and military service dogs. It is no one's fault here and I criticize nobody here for referencing these dogs this way, but I am not quite sure why this niche has seemingly taken ownership of the title _working_.

I know a couple heelers that would jump up and take a chunk off of the end of your nose if you told them they were not a working dog. These dogs work too, the ones with Police and Military. But a lot of dogs do a lot of work. Sorry for the confusion.



> What I consider rank is genetic handler aggression.


What I consider handler aggression is the manifestation of rank controlled, prey based aggression manifesting itself as a disloyal opportunist. The handler aggression you would get from Kaz for being absolutely stupid enough to put a prong on him a start yanking is different. You have ceased being his handler at that point and there ain't no rank issues to work out for him. He has now made the decsion that you won;t do that again ... You pissed him off.

I need to go see that big oaf tomorrow, maybe I'll snap a pic so you see what I mean by American Akita versus Akita Inu.



> What has defined a GSD is his utmost loyalty to his pack so where you got disloyal opportunists as a breed is beyond me.


The sheep herding GSD is, not the service/sport bred one. Again, it is not a trait bred for. It is a result, IMO, and the only way to pull it off. To pull of turning a prey driven sheepherder into a mandog. As the aggression goes up and the bite inhigition goes down the rank must go UP to control the aggression.

Not so with true man dogs is my point. The aggression stems for other places in its pysche. Look, this little red heeler pup I have, she will be all of about 35 lbs full grown. But fiesty as hell. Great watch dog. Like a GSD. And like a GSD, versus a BC, she got some potential to put teeth on humans for bad intent for sure. Go reach inside the open window of a cowboy's truck with a heeler sitting in it and see what happens, and it ain't a fear bite - it's a 'Hey asshole, get yer hand out here, and you do it again I'm coming for your face,' bite.

Like your GSD can do. But she ain't a GAURD dog. She is too small for such work, like GSDs and mals.


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## Christopher Fox (Dec 24, 2009)

> From what I know from an Akita handler, they can be pretty rank and unpredictable from day to day as to what they will tolerate.


Curious as to the 'handling'. What that means. I have not met the dogs you speak of, but having known both American Akitas and Akita Inus, none in a doggie daycare environment for sure I will say this. Kaz wouldn't let some knucklehead in a penguin suit a poke around his a-hole and check to make sure he had the proper angle on the dangle of his sack.

I am not a fan of the AKC. At all. So if these Akitas handled are the type paraded around a ring, they have been bred to alter their temperment to tolerate it. And, if this is the handling you refer to, no insult, different strokes for different folks.

But, that doesn't sound like rank to me. That is nothing more than pure Akita NASTINESS. Most of those morth eastern asian spitz type dogs are. Chow chows and owner bites anyone? Unpredictable? Hell no. PREDICTABLY NASTY.. Umae, another Akita, is the nastiest bitch of any dog I have ever met. And I have met a few hundred dogs Terrasita. She loves da crap outta me though ...

... 'Cause I give the doggies credit for how smart they are when I interact with them.

That is why I said American Akita for ultimate, out of the crate, no training, protect you gaurd dog. Akita Inu that had Mastiff, real Dog of War stuff, not Marmaduke, and Tosa Inu thrown in to increase its pit fighting abilities. And no, I do not support fighting. If I saw, I knock some teeth out and take some dogs away from people.

But people have done it, have bred for it and the dogs are there. As a tangent, were I to start a breeding program to develop a PPD, I would include American Akita as some of those dogs are the last bastion of real deal mastiff blood in the U.S.



> As for Pyrs, unless a human was going to try to make off with one of their sheep, they don't fit Chris' description. How the Pyr relates to animals can be different from man. They will guard the sheep from man.


I think we are on the same page here. As far as a pyr biting a man, here is my synopsis:

Any LGD will sink its teeth into any mamal it perceives as a threat not as much to it but a threat to what it is bonded with. Be it a flock of sheep, a territory, or the the little red headed shit me. Any working line LGD was bred to THINK INDEPENDENTLY 24/7. Many LGDs have very, very little interatcion with the rancher that feeds them. They were also bred to adminster LETHAL VIOLENCE AT THEIR *OWN* discretion.

That absolute independence in their thought process and predispostion to be violent in response to a perceived threat is why you don't out a prong on Alfons when you cannot figure out why you cannot teach him to come, or much of anything else he doesn't WANT to do.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Christopher noone doubts your passion, u seem like a real "man on a mission". it would be easy to doubt yr credibility after all your own sig says u don't own a dog and if u are not active in sport or commercial training noone would have heard of you hence so be easy to conclude evrything u say is just talk/dreaming, hell u my have just read all this stuff u write 2 minutes ago.

so there is a clear credibility factor here ie - u have none - u basically have nothing else than what u say on the internet - that kind of sux for you - nothing personal but just lettin u know what yr up against. 

n even if u are making it all up that doesn't mean u can't have an opinion or be in a discusion.

i'm glad u like dogs and are kind to them as u say u are, in the end thats all i really care about, the fancy tricks (training) etc is all kind of secondary.


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## Christopher Fox (Dec 24, 2009)

> so the pyr and the akita, that according to Christopher, will supposedly try to KILL their owners for correcting them with a pinch collar, do not have any rank issues?


See my post to Terrasita above about why it wouldn't be the best idea to put a prong on the neck of the that BIG dog in the back of that truck, or any real deal working LGD. Kaz, even worse idea. Bad, bad idea.

See about Akita nastiness above too. Think about it Joby. That American Akita is a mix between Akita Inu, a nasty dog with very little HUMAN BITE INHIBITION, War Mastiff that was around still in the 1800's and Tosa Inu (pure pit fighting dog).

Terrasita's friend calls it unpredictable rank. I call it, "Look the f' out if you out a prong on that dude's neck". The ******* thing:

What's the LAST thing one ******* said to the other *******:
'Hey ya'll, toss me another bud and watch me give me big fing Akita a level 10 with a prong.'

Joby, the real life dude sitting in front of computer, well this real life guy, this knucklehead typing this right now in a 4X4 ambulance called home is telling you, flat out, you throw a prong around the neck of a dog I know named Kaz and start pulling on it, YOU WILL GET BIT. PERIOD. END OF STORY. Maybe for you 'cause 135 lbs of pissed off Akita is a very legitmate threat to your life if you do not have a weapon, if the only thing in your hand is a damn leash attaached to a prong collar, yes, bro, you could DIE doing this to this dog.

For real.



> but the herders that deal with training corrections well for the most part, have severe rank problems?


No. I explained the rank ting clearly more than once. But, I guess I'll do it again. The overt and abnormal rank, managed with prong collars and gossestepping dogs, is a result of trying to breed a sheep herder to do man work.

Wrong body type. Wrong TEMPERMENT. Wrong DRIVES. And yes, IMO they have sever, abnormal rank problems and are less complex and intelligent socially than 99% of all other dogs, including Alfons and Kaz. And Umae, that nasty bitch.



> is this making sense to anyone?


Perfectly clear to me.


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## Christopher Fox (Dec 24, 2009)

> u have none - u basically have nothing else than what u say on the internet - that kind of sux for you


Peter, I ain't got a damn thing to worry about bro. I know how to use capital letters, and can spell both words 'you' and 'suck' in a language a wee bit more sophisticated than text and tweet.

You can have all the clear credibiltiy questions about me you want daddy-o. In the words of Paul Simon:

_I know what I know_

And, quite frankly, it is pretty clear to me what I am discussing is over your head and your knowledge base.

Nothing personal ...


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## Christopher Fox (Dec 24, 2009)

Waht I am saying Joby, is that the dogs I am pointing have violence and aggression that is triggered by something entirely different than the rank controlled prey driven aggression of GSDs and Mals. A real deal LGD was bred to do two things:

Think for himself and adminster violence at his discretion. HIS discretion Joby not switch wired to rank like in GSDs and Mals.

I am saying do not confuse this dog by trying to make it let you think for it, enforced with a prong. Yes, you could get bit. bad. Real bad.

With the Akita, he is just more volitale. It has NOTHING TO DO WITH RANK and neither one of these dogs have rank issue.

It is about pissing off a dog truly large enough to kill you. With the Akita, a dogs that LACKS human bite inhibition and is mixed with Tosa and War Dog. Your balls really that big dude? To start trying to FORCE yourself and your rank on a dog like that?

Really?


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Awesome!!!! Glad to see minimalism language skills and censorship don't impact. Gotta go to club training but will further enjoy later. Hope you stick around.
> 
> 
> T


=D>


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> If you knew it was coming...
> 
> Seriously, you're talking about a 12 wk old pup and have used about a half dozen descriptive training terms and all the pup really wants to do is take a shit and get some snooze time.
> 
> Loosen up man :lol:


As ever =D>


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## Christopher Fox (Dec 24, 2009)

More about why I am talking about LGDs and why I posted a couple 30+ y.o. pics of a pyr named Alfons. Take a look at that dog and then recall the images in your mind of all of those big, fluffy, passive, AKC papered Pyrs in the U.S. If you paraded Alfons around a show ring, he would be laughed at, wouldn't he? He doesn't look right.

Here is a pyr with no AKC papers:








No doubt in my mind that this one has 'em:








Put a prong collar on the AKC one, sure. The one without papers? First of all, WHY?!? You GOT THE WRONG DOG. Why did you get an independent minded dog if you don't want one? Second of all, he wasn't bred for conformation and to tolerate the nonsense invovled in a dog show. A REAL DEAL LGD wouldn't do so good. Neither would Kaz. Kaz for sure would be focused on nothing but killing every other dog he saw.

When I say you are risking trouble putting a prong on a LGD, I am talking WORKING LGD.

Or a dog, like J.D.'s I referenced that is showing strong working traits - those traits might also include the full willingness to execute violence at their own discretion. Bad advice from a 40+ expert who deals with disloyal opportunists driven, in most aspects of their life by rank.

There are not a lot of true working LGDs in the U.S. They can be dangerous dogs and are in no way shape or form suitable for city/suburb living. Put a prong on that AKC fluff ball if you want ... not Alfons though - he still retained his hardwired, full discretion violence.


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## Christopher Fox (Dec 24, 2009)

Since I brought it up, I think the AKC is the single entity most responsible for dog OVERpopulation in addition the the ruination of the working abilities of many dogs. There are good working dogs with papers, to be sure, but I will never own on as I will never support the AKC


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Christopher Fox said:


> Since I brought it up, I think the AKC is the single entity most responsible for dog OVERpopulation in addition the the ruination of the working abilities of many dogs. There are good working dogs with papers, to be sure, but I will never own on as I will never support the AKC


 
I think I disagree with the above, if there is a single entity mostly responsible for dog overpopulation and their ruination, I believe it to be more likely the crate culture. You don't have to know or even learn eff all about dogs to keep them locked up in a crate for most of their lives, do you ?


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## Christopher Fox (Dec 24, 2009)

I am curious if anyone other than Joby thinks it is a good idea to put a prong collar on a 135lb American Akita. One ginormous chow-chow lacking human bite inhibition with War Dog and Pit Dog thrown in. To FORCE your authority, using, well, force.

Really? Anyone want to step up to the plate and tell me I don't know what the hell I am talking about? That they got the balls to try a stunt like that?

Jim ... ?


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## Christopher Fox (Dec 24, 2009)

> I think I disagree with the above, if there is a single entity mostly responsible for dog overpopulation and their ruination, I believe it to be more likely the crate culture.


I am with you on the doggie jail thing. 'No really, dogs love being locked up, it makes them feel safe and secure'.

Dogs like dens, not jails and no dog den has a door, let alone a door with a luck. If you do not have time to properly supervise a puppy, you do not have time to have a dog, do ya Maggie? Breeding operations and professional training operations of all working dogs excluded, of course. Dogs thrive on being a part of your life and your household, not being seperated and locked in jail.

Doggie jails are for folks who own one or two dogs who do not have the proper time to spend with them or cannot handle the frustrations of their pup. No offense anyone. I don't consider you bad or immoral. This little heeler pup sitting at my feet has not spent one second in one. Nor will she, no matter how much she pisses me off. You ain't seen a mouthy puppy until you have hung out with heeler pups. Yikes. Australian CROCODILE Dogs is more like it.

But I knew that going in and I got a pup because I had scheduled several weeks of downtime. 24 hours a day I am with this pup and she has no problems sleeping right next to me on the floor 8 hours a night and has no accidents and chews nothing she is not allowed too.

Part of that is because I do not wind up the energy of a herding dog by locking her in jail, which, btw, takes any opportunistic qualities your dog has and makes them worse. And me personally, well I would not have brought home this pup if two days later I had to start locking her in doggie jail 10 hours a day while I was away, out for a couple hours, than back in doggie jail for 8 hours to sleep.

Hmmm ... 18 hours a day locked in jail for a herding dog. Yea ....

My problem with the AKC is they have created designer dogs out of working dogs, people get them becuase they think they are 'cool', etc.

The AKC does the same thing that the crate culture does Maggie ... it make speople who have no business owning dogs get dogs ...

But maybe you were being sarcastic about the crate culture?


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## Christopher Fox (Dec 24, 2009)

Just to further explain, it isn't just the designer dog issue. They have ruined every working breed they have gotten their hands on. Border Collies are the latest. Worst thing that ever happend to the Working Border Collie was the AKC registering the breed.

Some ranchers and cowboys will not touch a BC that has AKC papers. Will not allow them to breed to their dogs, etc. Same reason I have red heeler and not an ACD. Every ACD I have come across is also AKC registered and ever heeler is not. My experiences, of course, your milage may vary. Further, no rancher or cowboy has ever referred to his/her working dog as anything other than a red or blue heeler.

Want a working ACD? Look for a breeder that calls their dogs heelers. Want a working BC? Look for one that does not have AKC parents.

Why? 'Cause the AKC along with the crate culture have ruined the working abilities of these dogs as well as contributed to their population as well as the AKC also being directly responsible for crating all of these designer dogs as well.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Christopher Fox said:


> I am curious if anyone other than Joby thinks it is a good idea to put a prong collar on a 135lb American Akita. One ginormous chow-chow lacking human bite inhibition with War Dog and Pit Dog thrown in. To FORCE your authority, using, well, force.
> 
> Really? Anyone want to step up to the plate and tell me I don't know what the hell I am talking about? That they got the balls to try a stunt like that?
> 
> Jim ... ?


LOL christopher, I did not say it was a good idea...I have been reading up on the akita, and it seems a good percentage of them are not good with kids, can bite their owners, and constantly have to be reminded of their pack status...which seems to go against what you are saying. especially in regards to the Rank thingy....been reading all the problems with them on the Akita message boards..

I never owned an akita, I doubt I would try to put a prong collar on one, if I did not know the dog, I would probably opt for the Ecollar..

anyhow...you are correct I have surmised...anyhow.
rotts, gsd, dutchies, and mals cant hold a candle to an akita or pyreneese for protection, so no argument from me...


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## Christopher Fox (Dec 24, 2009)

Don't get me wrong Joby, I hate Akitas. But I don't blame the individual dogs. And that Kaz dog is a special dog - it is the Mastiff in him and very submissive to a alpha he RESPECTS and TRUSTS. NO Rank issues. I blame the knucklehead humans responsible for breeding them.

Yea, and don't trust damn one of them around children or another dog.

I consider Akitas a dangerous dog and would never get one unless I had a very real need PPD, not just a need to feel safer, but a legitmate threat that I knew existed. And, from the ones I have met and been around, probably 5-6 of both the American brutes and Inus, I don't think people assess them accurately with rank issues.

They are just nasty damn dogs, again, think chow-chow. They don't bite their owners to enforce rank, they do it because they are a-holes.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Christopher Fox said:


> Don't get me wrong Joby, I hate Akitas. But I don't blame the individual dogs. And that Kaz dog is a special dog - it is the Mastiff in him and very submissive to a alpha he RESPECTS and TRUSTS. NO Rank issues. I blame the knucklehead humans responsible for breeding them.
> 
> Yea, and don't trust damn one of them around children or another dog.
> 
> ...


ok


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Christopher Fox said:


> I am curious if anyone other than Joby thinks it is a good idea to put a prong collar on a 135lb American Akita. One ginormous chow-chow lacking human bite inhibition with War Dog and Pit Dog thrown in. To FORCE your authority, using, well, force.
> 
> Really? Anyone want to step up to the plate and tell me I don't know what the hell I am talking about? That they got the balls to try a stunt like that?
> 
> Jim ... ?


You got me on that one there Pumpkin . I have never needed or worked with a dog like that and don't ever want to . 

I worked and trained dogs that actively and effectively searched out and found suspects and when I needed them to they bit and held on to them until we could get them into custody . I also used there nose to find lots drugs and evidence in crimes . Didn't need a dog with all that mythical stuff you are talking about . Needed something real with the confidence and desire to to it and GSDs , Mals , Dutchies and the like do an awesome job .


My next dog will be either a Lab for hunting or a disloyal opprotunist like a Mal or Dutchie because they kickass in the sports I'm interested in . In the personal protection area I'm not relying on a dog . I can take care of that .


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Christopher Fox said:


> I am with you on the doggie jail thing. 'No really, dogs love being locked up, it makes them feel safe and secure'.
> 
> But maybe you were being sarcastic about the crate culture?


No sarcasm this end Christopher.

I have been finding this quite an interesting thread, and find your perspective also quite interesting Christopher. I know nothing of mollosers as such other than I had a great dane many years ago, she was just a nice sort of gentle dog. I've had a few gsds, my first one I got in 1984 or thereabouts, I am not familiar with this disloyal opportunist you speak of.... not at all.


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## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

Christopher Fox said:


> I also have had 5 orthopaedic surgeries, half a dozen broken bones, need back surgery, neck surgery, etc. I know pain. I know what it feels like when bones break, tendons and ligaments tear, etc. I am a dumbass. I have crashed going way too fast on too many things.


So I thinking you must have had a few head injuries there also....?


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Lynn Cheffins said:


> So I thinking you must have had a few head injuries there also....?


:lol::lol:8)


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

christopher and others :
your comments and perspective have been "interesting" to say the least !

-unfortunately my real life has been getting in the way of my keyboard time; when that changes i'll def jump in and toss my 02yen, but the akita stuff has really peaked my interest since i've worked with at least 25-30 over the past ten years or so .... my experience and feeling towards em has certainly been different from yours
- my gut feeling tells me the "american" version has been as screwed up as many other canine breeds that have come to the usa and morphed into something else
- but if you want to see the biggest collection of idiots who own "nihon kens", just go to their usa based web-site with a similar name, and get ready to start puking 

but one thing that keeps jumping out is how it seems christopher seems a little preoccupied with the fantasy world of letting dogs perform natural behaviors in their natural environment .....that environment rarely exists nowadays since most dogs have to live in urban environments

... and i'm the first one to admit i'm jealous of people who live in the country and can keep country dogs and allow them to do what comes natural to them, but that world doesn't exist for me anymore

but fwiw, i've used prongs on some very strong akitas and i've been tagged, but have never had one go for my throat ... usually to help them learn how to walk in public with a lighter weight handler. has a lot to do with how u use it after you slap it on  
- in my experience how many kg's they weighed didn't always equate to how "strong" they were.....maybe some of those american akitas are being bred with malamutes 

and are there any "war dogs" being used for "war" work these days ???

sorry to have to hit and run, but i'm gonna help the base set up their 4th of July pyro show tonight and forget about dogs for awhile


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## Christopher Fox (Dec 24, 2009)

> So I thinking you must have had a few head injuries there also....? Today 04:09 PM


I can tell you that there are stars at the bottom of a river, 'cause I done seen 'em. A few other places too. 

And? Care to go back a few pages and critique my advice on how J.D. should handle her pyr? Or are you just here to keep the peanut gallery going strong?

Tell ya what Lynn, lil Josie and I are going to go for a walk. Then she is going to leanr about waiting in a vehicle (her only alone time) for me while I go spend an hour or so with a big oaf named Kaz. When I get back to my computer, the first thing I ma going to check for is to see if you added anything useful to the conversation.

Will I be disappointed?


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)




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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I do not remember anyone asking for advice about a Pyr on this board.

I am quite sure that LGD are not bred to KILL people, the usual thing they do is to drive off someone, and return to their job, possibly bite and drive off. 

You claim that the Rottweiler as a breed has rank issues, because 1 dog tried to mount you when you were sitting on the ground? did you live with the dog? and that you think these rank issues, are not loyal, and are not good for a protection dog, then you name 2 breeds, that you admit will attack their owners and try to kill them...

I think you need to "study" some actual PP dogs, and working dogs before you decide to educate people on them..this is not usually done in a doggy daycare setting...


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Christopher Fox said:


> Bring me up to date then. No herding eh? Grip in sheep? i don't nderstand it Terrasita? I most certainly do. I most certainly know that any rancher or cowboy would put a bullet in the head of any dog that gripped his livestock the way service/sport dogs grip. Period. I know the dogs in service/sport are INCAPABLE of herding as they have been DEVOLVED and will DESTROY AND KILL LIVESTOCK.
> 
> Yea, I know much more about the way BCs and Heelers herd for sure and do not mind admitting ignorance to the 'living fence' GSD methodology. But I know that any real sport/service dog can't herd - they would KILL.
> 
> ...


 
Well, Christopher, I think you are wrong from a historical point of view. Not ALL sport dogs are incompatible with herding. Take several of them to the stock pen and watch the herding genetics at work. There are some folks who still understand what balance is even though others are breeding a dog that would be incompatible with herding. GSD shepherds selected for a grip and the desired grip placement was different depending upon which region they came from. The herding capacity also went beyond the tending function. That was one aspect of it. Regardless of whether you prefer a molosser and consider them better, the herding breeds had a guard function. That tending dog was also performing as a LGD while left with the flock. If you ever watch a LGD in action, watch him gather, hold and move his flock to where he thinks geographical safety is--same thing a tending dog/herder will do. Not all shepherds subscribed to the idea of filing teeth either. Most ranchers I have met have cautioned---"don't take the grip out of the dog." You have a size thing and what I would differentiate as dogs that were bred for truncated kill vs. dogs bred for kill to be the conclusion of the hunt sequence. Fair enough. But GSDs characterized as disloyal opportunists??? Totally disagree. As for guard and your human fight drive, your average idiot don't have it in the face of a dog. In terms of service dogs, how many molossers can be TRAINED to active commands and safe enought to turn off the kill or prevent the kill? If the dogs weren't for the most part effective, would they still employ them. I have to leave that to the LE folks. I guess at some point if they faced enough of fight drive crooks that were killing their dogs, they'd have to re-evaluate. There are dogs that have lost the fight but again, I think you have to look at the numbers.


Terrasita


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

i would venture to guess that a very small percentage of Patrol dogs or PP dogs are killed by humans, especially if they do not have weapons, regardless of their breeds.

I took on 4 guys and 1 girl that were trying to kick in my door, while 3 grown men were hiding in my house, and I can't even fight very well. I had a gun on me, a little .380 in my pocket, but decided to give the dog a chance to bite someone.

one guy had a bat, which I picked up after the dog grabbed his stomach, and he dropped it...he should have swung it at the dog instead of me. They could have easily overpowered me and killed the dog, but after the first bite, their plan went out the window. 2 guys got bit that night, I had a bruise on my arm, they all ran away.

anyhow a ROTTWEILER IS A MOLLOSSER, not a herder...

I dont think it is over the top high rank drive if a dog will hump a non family member who is sitting on the ground around them...I just think that person was not thinking very clearly, luckily he only got humped, and not pissed on...

I will take a good rottweiler, gsd, mal, or dutchie for protection of me or my family, over any akita, Pyr, or LGD.

LGD are bred to fight animals, not people, for the most part, 
some herders and Rottweilers ARE bred to fight people...

I have taken bites from 2 Akitas, both did bite when overtly threatened, I'll give them that much, but it was a TAG and a jump back, they were hardly trying to kill me.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

"while 3 grown men were hiding in my house, and I can't even fight very well." Joby its not hard stop hiding behind yr dog, forget all that karate/ kug fu BS as well. yr best tools are;

eye pokes
car keys to the throat
i wear steel caps only - so a steel cap to the side of the knee
biting
strategically stashed weapons all around yr place

PM me if u need more advise

its not hard, remember speed & crazy always beats big and can equalise numbers differences

protect yr dog not the other way around 

hope this helps


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> "while 3 grown men were hiding in my house, and I can't even fight very well." Joby its not hard stop hiding behind yr dog, forget all that karate/ kug fu BS as well. yr best tools are;
> 
> eye pokes
> car keys to the throat
> ...


Pete if you call 1 guy going out the back door and sneaking up on 5 people trying to break into my house, one with a baseball bat, intent on hurting at least one person (not me) and taking trying to get them to disperse.....hiding behind a dog. I will have to disagree...

The dog was owned for specifically that reason, to protect me and my property.

Looking back on it, it was a pretty dumb thing to do, I'll admit that, but it worked out ok for me and the dog, and the 3 pussies hiding in my house.

These days, I would probably sit in the house with the gun, and wait for them to break in.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

relax jus messin. sitin in the house thing is hard to get to work. my sister got robbed in an apartment up a few floors in a good neighbourhood. she thought it was once in a lifetime event. the guy came back a few weeks later while she was alone on her bed and robbed the place again but left her alone.

the police got the guy - a skinny little junky who was not particularly violent. the police showed me a map they found on him and a shopping list of things he needed to steal. he robbed the same places over again. he avoided any place with ANY dog in the yard, the breed was of no significance, toy dogs were avoided as much as rotts. 

he only stole things on his list and would leave a place unrobbed if it didn't have what was on his list.

i found all this interesting stuff on how these people work. the guy was well known and friendly in the neighbourhood and would chat quite friendly to the people he robbed. 

he mainly robbed single girls and knew all their schedules, also on his on records he kept.

i took a week off work and waited under blankets with a pile of weapons hoping he would brake in before the police caught him, never showed my face outdoors for an entire week so he would know i was there - anyway after no sleep for a week and a freakin saw back i stopped waiting and went home dissapointed - he made his second robbery about a night after i left - ****er



the thought of legally beating someone is enticing but rarely works out logistically


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I was more pissed than anything...I was a couple blocks away...I get a call from my roomie asking me where I keep my guns, that 5 BIG dudes are gonna kill him, they chased him and his 2 buddies into the house...(he was sleeping with the one guys GF)...

I told him to call the police, then to open my bedroom door and let the dog loose in the house, he was too scared to let the dog out because it was going nuts and trying to break out of the room to get into the action...

They did call the police at least, but I was NOT going to tell this guy where the guns were, because he would shot someone maybe, and would have probably went to prison....and someone may have gotten killed over some beef about a girl...

I was able to park behind the house, go in...couldnt find anyone, they were all hiding in the house...I openly the door, got the dog on a leash, and went out and through a side gate...got up right behind them, and told them to get the fukk off of my property and that the police we coming, they said they were gonna fukk up my roomie, I said it was not his house, that it was my house...they scoffed at the dog and the guy with the bat stepped forward at me, so I charged him and he swung the bat, I took one in the upper arm, as the dog grabbed his stomach and tore a chunk out of it, and I picked up the bat....I then turned and let the dog bite the biggest guy there in the leg...who was thinking about coming at me...

I was more pissed that these assholes were trashing my doors, I had 2 doors that were fukked up, and they jumped all over the hood of one guys car in my driveway (not mine)...

The cops did come, but the guys were gone already...I was glad no one got shot....I did not know any of the people that were trying to get in, but they were not 5 BIG DUDES, they were 1 big dude, 3 small skinny dudes, and a girl...it was all over in a matter of about a minute after I came outside. I was glad I was close enough to get there to prevent anything more serious from happening...the people at my house did not tell the cops who did it, and I was pissed. I made my roomie pay for 2 new doors and new trim...since I was not going to get it out of the guys that did the damage...The doors held, the were metal doors with good locks and deadbolts, but they were all dented up, and the trimwork was fukked.

I saw one of the guys at the gas station a few days later and went up to him, he was one of the guys that got bit, I told him that was MY house and I didn't care if he wanted to kick my roomie's ass, as long as he didnt do it on my property...they eventually gave him a beat down in the parking lot of his work, when he got out of work...

I didn't think this was a deadly force type situation, but I was not gonna go out there by myself against 5 people and try to talk to them, without a perfectly good dog, that was literally chewing on a door to try to get out and do his job...

like I said pretty stupid in retrospect, everyone has guns these days, but I was real pissed off, and for whatever reason was not that scared at the time, or thinking straight...


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## Christopher Fox (Dec 24, 2009)

You want a man dog? You need a structure spmething like this:









That is one big damn doggie arm, ain't it? Whole dog is built that way. Needs to be if it si going to battle against a man. If it is to be a PPD or gaurd dog.

Why does this dog have a dewlap? What's that for Terrasita? That ain't a small water bowl either.









See all the Mastiff in him? In his eyes, his jowles, etc?

















See any collar of any kind on that dog? No need unless he is out in public. That dog will do whatever I tell him. Not because I enforce my rank on him.

Here is a random image from typing 'AKC AKITA CHAMPION' into google:









See the lack of Mastiff? The lighter frame? Still a big dog though, but not built like Kaz, is he? Pretty clear what American Akita genes Kaz carries - the pure nasty dog fighting ones. The ones put in in the 1800's and early 1900's to increase pit fighting ability in the Akita Inu.

Yea, that big oaf is molting, and yea, I pulled as much as a I could out before I left.


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## Christopher Fox (Dec 24, 2009)

> I have never needed or worked with a dog like that and don't ever want to


Don't want to what? Work with a dog that DOES NOT NEED a prong collar to be corrected? Why not? It is quite pleasent. Through a harness and real strong leash on that dude if you take him out in public - Still no prongs and HE STILL WON"T BITE _YOU_.

You are only going to get in trouble with him if you start cranking up PHYSICAL PUNISHMENT, like woth a prong. But you don't need it. It is the Mastiff in him. No need whatsoever for harsh methods with that big oaf.



> Didn't need a dog with all that mythical stuff you are talking about


Umm ... what mythical stuff? A LGD wired to BARK BARK BARK BARK all the damn time? To establish territory? To kill anything it considers a predator, including other dogs it finds in its teritory?

Myth? Huh? That is the history and reality of working LGDs. There is still a need. I don't know wher you live, but where I do and plenty of cows and sheep do their are wolves. Big 'uns. And no damn llama is going to work. You need an Alfons.

Wolves are in the Colorado Rocky Mountains and I have now doubt that if they have not yet crossed into New Mexico, they will. WHere is the myth in stock needing protection from dogs that you could not parade around a show ring or start jerking on a prong collar?



> GSDs , Mals , Dutchies and the like do an awesome job.


Than how do describe the scent work of a Bloodhound? Super Duper Extra Special Awesome?



> My next dog will be either a Lab for hunting or a disloyal opprotunist like a Mal or Dutchie because they kickass in the sports I'm interested in


I've met a lot of cool labs. Make sure not to make it goosestep, no prongs. None of that. And yea, I have seen some hyped up working labs that people _think_ need shock collars. Damn lab doesn;t even need a leash. Ever. After puppyhood.

Jim, if they are not disloyal opportunists, why must you regiment the crap out of their lives? What kind of dog is that? That will take a mile for every inch you give and will never stop?

That's a rosy picture you paint to what you did with your service dog, but reality paints it with a braoder, darker brush. Not about you, about about the WHOLE picture. A ten year old boy from half way across the world could explain ...


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## Christopher Fox (Dec 24, 2009)

I feel like I need to say again, that I am presenting my opinions. I am not attacking. Anyone. Throw all the pumpkins and zingers and sarcasm my way Jim, that's cool, I can hurl some back, and hell, its entertainnig for all. Disagree with me all you want, tell me I don't know what the hell I am talking about, but do not take anything I say to be personally directed at you.

'Cause ut ain't

And when I tell you why I do not think you had any business holding onto the leash of a sheepherder gone wild while you were punched into the timeclock in a Police Uniform, do not think that I am in anyway making any judgements about you, your character, your integrity, your professionalism or your _intent_ or _your_ opinion about the suitablilty of such things.

Because I ain't. But I do know you probably won't agree with me either. And that's cool too. Which is why I ask you to not take it personal. But I have to see if there are other posts I need to respond to first.

Peter, get ready to type: "sux 2 b u" again to me as in my next post to Jim I am going to give you a nice, non-credientialed ancedotal story about a 10 year old boy from half way around the world and what he told me about Kassie.


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## Christopher Fox (Dec 24, 2009)

Oh yea:



> In the personal protection area I'm not relying on a dog . I can take care of that .


100% agreement. If you truly feel your life is in danger to the point of wanting a Kaz, the first step os to get a gun. Then a Concealed Carry. And if your State does not have CC, you need to ask yer state Legeislators why the hell not? 2nd Amendment is pretty clear.

And then look yourself in the mirror and realize you were a damn fool to think that you should put your ultimate survival in the mind of a dog. They are smart, but they ain't humans.

Make no mistake that I have tried, for many years, to convince the owner of Kaz that all he really needs is a chiuahua that will bark at 3:00 am when it hears something and a wife confident with a his handgun, not a couple of Akitas that he cannot have his children around very much so he does not have to worry when he goes to work as a nurse at night.

His kids are deprived of a relationship as are his dogs. I don't like it. So I spend as much time with those dogs as I can, even having lived with just the two of them for extended periods (Kaz and the nasty bitch of a dog you'll ever meet).

That's fun Terrasita. Living with two unaltered Akitas. One of them a real, real nasty bitch that doesn't care if he kicks her ass - she MAKES him. Nasty spite and no fear of a fight. Those ain't the only _real_ unaltered dogs I've been around Terrasita.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Christopher, not that I agree or dissagree with your posts but when you write 2-3-4 looong posts in a row it's hard for a lot of folks to stay interested. 
Just a thought! :wink:


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## Christopher Fox (Dec 24, 2009)

> anyhow a ROTTWEILER IS A MOLLOSSER, not a herder...


A rott has some molassor background. But it is a droving dog, you know, a HERDER.

A pyr cannot drove, herd, etc. A pyr ain;t got no prey drive Joby. No LGD does and a lot of Mastiffs don;t have much at all either, not as much as their cousin the rottie. Prey aggression controlled through rank, and stronger dog, needs stronger rank to control it, doesn't it? rotts are more socially aggessive and rtank than a gsd and mal, huh? They have to be to be controlled.

It works out of prey, to herd. That is the source of aggression in gsds, mals rotties. Sure, rotties might have stronger natural defense, but they are droving decendents, Joby, now no longer droving sheep but being trained to bite men.



> i would venture to guess that a very small percentage of Patrol dogs or PP dogs are killed by humans, especially if they do not have weapons, regardless of their breeds.


I didn't say killed, I said asses kicked. Yup, not often I would guess, but I KNOW it happens and I know this is because the dog is not as stable as you think and fights out of rank and turns into a wuss when he finds a decoy that fights back in the form of a pissed off criminal. I then the dog is RUINED. No confidence. Not stable.



> one guy had a bat, which I picked up after the dog grabbed his stomach, and he dropped it...he should have swung it at the dog instead of me.


Yup. And then your dog probably would have been done, possibly injured. kaz would have been just a bit more pissed is all. Mastiff. 



> I have taken bites from 2 Akitas, both did bite when overtly threatened, I'll give them that much, but it was a TAG and a jump back, they were hardly trying to kill me.


Come yank on Kaz's neck with a prong and see if something different happens 



> I do not remember anyone asking for advice about a Pyr on this board.


Neither do I. That was an example of how the methods employed to live with disloyal opportunists is not all suitable for all dogs. The LGD was to also talk about the discretion of violence that sheepherders do not have and the size dog needed if you think you need protection from a man.



> I am quite sure that LGD are not bred to KILL people, the usual thing they do is to drive off someone, and return to their job, possibly bite and drive off.


They are bred to kill and to DECIDE for themselves when to kill. Alfons wasn't no man-killer. He also wasn't a dog you were going to have ANY luck teaching 100% recall to. Not even 50%. The point being that yes, start yanking on prong for a dog not doing what it is not supposed or ever will do and you might piss him off - trigger him to make a Decision for violence.

You got it Joby. Possibly Bite a human. You increase your chances of being one of those hmans if you put a prong on a LGD to enforce the UNENFORCEABLE.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Christopher Fox said:


> Don't want to what? Work with a dog that DOES NOT NEED a prong collar to be corrected? Why not? It is quite pleasent. Through a harness and real strong leash on that dude if you take him out in public - Still no prongs and HE STILL WON"T BITE _YOU_.
> 
> You are only going to get in trouble with him if you start cranking up PHYSICAL PUNISHMENT, like woth a prong. But you don't need it. It is the Mastiff in him. No need whatsoever for harsh methods with that big oaf.
> 
> ...



I'm going to be serious for a second Christopher just so we know where I stand on this and what you can expect for a discussion with me if you so choose .

Please don't be offended I'm just giving you my opinion . Because of the content of your posts I can't take you serious . I can't help but suspect you are either one of several folks that have posted here under fake names and for the fun of it posting some crazy stuff to see who is going to take the bait or you are posting under your real name and are legitimately crazy . Usually I can figure it out pretty quickly but I'm leaning towards you're a crazy person . Either way I'm not going to get into a serious conversation with you . It's impossible . 

So if you aren't doing this to be funny and want my answers to your questions , feel free to ask , just know ahead of time what to expect so no whinning if you intend to keep going like this .

If someone made this guy up . Good stuff .


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Awesome!!!! Glad to see minimalism language skills and censorship don't impact. Gotta go to club training but will further enjoy later. Hope you stick around.
> 
> 
> T


Oh and I forgot this ^ =D>


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## Christopher Fox (Dec 24, 2009)

Point well taken Bob, and I do appreciate the hospitality for sure, especially since I am walking a fine line of coming across as a troll in some folks minds at this point, which I am NOT. Thankyou for understanding that, I seriously do appreciate it. Imagine how unreadable it would have been if I kept that as one loooong post instead of a few long posts. I have a lot to say. Believe that i _am_ focusing on brevity, but I can only do so much there.

And, in addition to advice, Peter flat out stated he wanted some conversation too. I have read pretty much every thread on this site over the course of time and have some thoughts for sure. I gotta lot to say ...


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## Christopher Fox (Dec 24, 2009)

Ok Peter. Grab some popcorn and see if Lynn is still around and wants any. It is time for anecdotal Sunday with Christopher. And I am not going to talk you about my, umm, credintials regarding dogs. I am going to talk about my credintials as a whitewater raft guide and a GSD named Kassie a 10 year old boy from half way across the world.

Kassie was another not spayed GSD, eastern Europe working line GSD. Not my dog Terraista, but I spent alot of time with her. As much as the average dog owner gone 10 hours a day. Up to 7 days a week, a few hours a day. I have spent days traveling by van with that dog, held her between my legs going through Class IV rapids, spent days isolated in the wilderness with her, etc. Plenty of time of the course of years, from puppyhood to an untimely stomach turn on a 55 lb. dog at 7.5 years.

And yea, like every other GSD I have been around, she was opportunistic as hell and sneaky about it. But she was smart and it wasn't tied to rank, so it just made me laugh. People from all over the world come to Colorado in the summer to vacation. There ain't a race, creed or religion that hasn't been on my raft down a river.

Kassie taught me some things about people from certain parts of the world. Kassie roamed free around the boathouse, the customers, etc. Like most dogs, she handled off leash with no problems. We had to put her up with cetain guests though. Specifically, people from certains parts of the world.

WITHOUT FAIL anyone from areas in India, the Indian Ocean Island, Malaya area, soutehrn Asia were TERRIFIED of Kassie. Would not get out of the car once the saw her off leash. Or, would quicvkly run back to their car once they saw Kassie. More than one husband has nervously gotten out of a car and told me their wife was to afraid to get out of the car with Kassie around. I have watched several grown men sit in a car for a bit to see which one was ballsy enough to step out with an offleash GSD and ask us to put her up so everyone else could get out too.

I watched this for years. Seriously, the thought in the back of my head was, "wow, there must be a lot of feral pariah dogs where these folks come from." That ain't it though. And a littel 10 y.o. clued me in. Sharp kid, dual-lingual. One of those kids you think to yourself, "Wow. I can't beleive that vocabulary and level of thought is coming from such a young brain."

Unlike his parents, his curiosity got the best of him when he saw me playing with Kassie behind a fence. He approached. I did everything I could to convince that little kid to put his hands on Kassie, to convince him she was no threat to him. It ended something like this:

Me: Why not? She won't bite you, she is a nice girl. See?

Little boy: I hate German Shepard Dogs!

Me: You hate DOGS?

Little boy: No. I hate GERMAN SHEPARD DOGS

Why does some little boy no where near Germany HATE GSDs? Who has them where he lives?

And what the hell they doin' with 'em ?!?

I know ....


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Christopher Fox said:


> And, in addition to advice, Peter flat out stated he wanted some conversation too. I have read pretty much every thread on this site over the course of time and have some thoughts for sure. * I gotta lot to say* ...



Don't forget that we have PMs here. PMs are always a great resource for an extended conversation that has very little to do with the posted topic.



_"Point well taken Bob, and I do appreciate the hospitality for sure, especially since I am walking a fine line of *coming across as a troll in some folks minds *at this point"_


Enhancement of the "Bio" you posted would be a good thing:


Christopher Fox said:


> Just another working dog enthusiast, more along the herding lines.


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## Christopher Fox (Dec 24, 2009)

> Don't forget that we have PMs here. PMs are always a great resource for an extended conversation that has very little to do with the posted topic


Indeed. But I am not just talking to Peter ...

I am not trying to cross any lines here and just as I do not want to make my thoughts unavailable to all by confining them to PM, no one has to read anything I type either.

Some will though Bob. Most of it, whetehr they post in this thread or not or stumble upon it in two weeks.

Definitely have some back reading to do as I am interested on others thoughts about my thoughts ...


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Christopher Fox said:


> Indeed. But I am not just talking to Peter ...
> 
> I am not trying to cross any lines here and just as I do not want to make my thoughts unavailable to all by confining them to PM, no one has to read anything I type either.
> 
> ...


We are actually quite serious about the additional Bio info.  Thanks!


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Christopher Fox said:


> Definitely have some back reading to do as I am interested on others thoughts about my thoughts ...


 

I would suggest you clarify them...:razz:


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

Christopher Fox said:


> Definitely have some back reading to do as I am interested on others thoughts about my thoughts ...


:-o I am not sure I am up for "what you think about what they think about what you think" LOL


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## Christopher Fox (Dec 24, 2009)

More about my credientials Peter. This time my heritage. I have a half gypsy grandmother who's dad came to America from Bohemia. That is because there was not a sheepherding dog with NO DISCRETION OVER ITS USE Of VIOLENCE CHASING him down to try to attack him for wnating to find some other place to live.

I'm not bashing cops. I am a dog advocate trying to present the case , among other cases, that sheepherders have no business doing man work. And it ain't just their body size - it is their temperment. I consider them dangerous for lack of discretion.

Doubt that lack of discretion? Line up 100 working service dogs. Take me out of the back of that truck, put my on the ground and start sending those dogs, one by one, out to get me. At the sight of the first, I'll turn around, run the other way, screaming my head off, like any kid would. How many of those service dogs would you get to send out? Would the first one KILL me, or the second? The third?

Now, bring Alfons into the picture. I go running by Alfons, mouth level, 2 inches from his teeth, screaming, yelling, crying - acting like prey. Alfons wouldn't spend 1/2 a second focused on my. He would be looking for what the hell has me so terrified and afarid.

That is what I mean by discretion. Service dogs don't have any when t comes to their violence at that is because it stems from prey and it makes them dangerous.

And it makes them devolved socially and is a disservice to dogs IMO. You are going backwards with breeding programs and making dogs that are dangerous and will kill little kids if you tell them to. No, I do not think these dogs as mentally stable as they are portrayed.

Neither do most other dogs. 'Cause they done told me so. Drop a working service dog as pup into a pack of neutered golden retrievers and labs and that pup will not reach adulthood. It won't be killed, it will be culled by the other dogs due to its mental deficiencies.

Just my opinion. And the opinions of doggies I have chatted with ....

A lot of pet owners and enthusisats are real, real proud about locking a pup in doggie jail 16 hours a day and talking about their Czech lines. Who did those Czech dogs bite people? Criminals? No. Innocent people.

Catch dogs are to be used on hogs, not people ....


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## Christopher Fox (Dec 24, 2009)

> I am not sure I am up for "what you think about what they think about what you think" LOL


And yet here you are. You have read some of it, haven't you? Some of my thoughts and opinions about a shared passion of ours? Join the conversation about dogs Kelly.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Christopher Fox said:


> And yet here you are. You have read some of it, haven't you?


We mods have to. :lol:



We are also quite serious about that Bio.




Christopher Fox said:


> ... Just my opinion. And the opinions of doggies I have chatted with ...


I'm sorry, but fake signups are banned here, and you are going to have to convince a mod here that you are not one. That could be a function of your enhanced Bio, in fact.

You may consider this post to be from all of the mods, by the way.


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Christopher Fox said:


> More about my credientials Peter. This time my heritage. I have a half gypsy grandmother who's dad came to America from Bohemia. That is because there was not a sheepherding dog with NO DISCRETION OVER ITS USE Of VIOLENCE CHASING him down to try to attack him for wnating to find some other place to live.
> 
> I'm not bashing cops. I am a dog advocate trying to present the case , among other cases, that sheepherders have no business doing man work. And it ain't just their body size - it is their temperment. I consider them dangerous for lack of discretion.
> 
> ...


I really don't understand what you are trying to relay via type? Can you clarify just the 1st paragraph?


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Connie Sutherland said:


> We mods have to. :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> *We are also quite serious about that Bio*.


Maybe this wll help


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## Christopher Fox (Dec 24, 2009)

> We mods have to.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Censor me if you must, not my site not my decision. I am not attacking anyone personally Connie. i am expressing my opinions about dogs, the methods used with these dogs, their inappriateness with a lot of dogs, etc.

That's all. Please at least let me know where I am violating rules, if I am, so I can know ...


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Christopher Fox said:


> Please at least let me know where I am violating rules, if I am, so I can know ...


Okey-doke. Now you know. You've been asked several times for more bio. This is standard here when many long-time members and mods suspect trolling.

Not complying is violating the rules.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

C'mon Christopher, buck up with the bio and be done with. Personally, I don't think you're a troll, you're much too original and I kinda enjoy the alternative view from time to time :smile:.


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Christopher Fox said:


> .... I did a job more dangerous than yours. 3rd most dangerous in NA to be exact and you won't find that info on google


Damn the more I read the more I wonder about you ...are you ok?

3rd most dangerous job? [-X


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Christopher Fox said:


> Ok Peter. Grab some popcorn and see if Lynn is still around and wants any. It is time for anecdotal Sunday with Christopher. And I am not going to talk you about my, umm, credintials regarding dogs. I am going to talk about my credintials as a whitewater raft guide and a GSD named Kassie a 10 year old boy from half way across the world.
> 
> Kassie was another not spayed GSD, eastern Europe working line GSD. Not my dog Terraista, but I spent alot of time with her. As much as the average dog owner gone 10 hours a day. Up to 7 days a week, a few hours a day. I have spent days traveling by van with that dog, held her between my legs going through Class IV rapids, spent days isolated in the wilderness with her, etc. Plenty of time of the course of years, from puppyhood to an untimely stomach turn on a 55 lb. dog at 7.5 years.
> 
> ...


Well, Christopher, I can pretty much tell you have't raised and lived with GSDS. 1 known dog doesn't quite cut it. I'd also venture to say you haven't watched a Pyr with livestock throughout the day based on your statements. Prey doesn't always equal aggression or indiscriminate bite. One dog or a misanagement dog, doesn't characterize an entire breed. Love to explore alternative viewpoints but I suspect this will end if you don't bio up and disprove the troll theory. 

Terrasita


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Kellie Wolverton said:


> :-o I am not sure I am up for "what you think about what they think about what you think" LOL


 
and POP goes my brain


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

i will say to the folks here as the OP of this thread

*sorry,* don't blame me, 

i am not responsible for what somone somewhere types on a key board.



i do know how to attract the live ones.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

soooo anyways, when is the best time to add verbal cues


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

depends on who you ask...


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> soooo anyways, when is the best time to add verbal cues



Between 3:17PM and 3:27PM ;-)


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Thomas Barriano said:


> *Between 3:17PM and 3:27PM*


 
thanks 15 pages and 1 epic later :razz:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

I didn't want to re-read the 15 pages, Peter, so I re-read your original post and got a little confused.

Why haven't you charged the mark if you want to marker train? 

(If you don't want to marker train, why are you talking about charging the mark?)


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I didn't want to re-read the 15 pages, Peter, so I re-read your original post and got a little confused.
> 
> Why haven't you charged the mark if you want to marker train?
> 
> (If you don't want to marker train, why are you talking about charging the mark?)


He's avoiding terms and theories. Just keeping it simple. 


T


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

WTF, who bothers getting back on topic after 15 pages of gibberish has just occurred?? 

but anyway to answer the question the whole thing started prior to me ever considering formal training, ie the pup was offering a host of random behaviours to get my attention and get what i had in my hand eg food or toy. i became the "opportunist" as Christopher would say and manipulated the situation by physically moving my hand to facilitate a sit,stand down - you know butt goes oppossitte head thing (it works).

so anyway pup needed less physical queing in only a few short sessions and could reliably get the desired position just by hand placement all the while no verbal command has ever been given.

soooo i thought this might be the time to start charging the mark and adding a verbal command while proceeding to slowly fade the physical ques. 

it was never meant to be a 15 page thread - in fact Thomas B was the only one who gave any practical advice i could use 

the thread has been interesting i must say however but the only thing not adressed was the actual question - hmmm


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I didn't want to re-read the 15 pages, Peter, so I re-read your original post and got a little confused.
> 
> Why haven't you charged the mark if you want to marker train?
> 
> (If you don't want to marker train, why are you talking about charging the mark?)


 
Connie u read it wrong, i do want to marker train i've spent the last 2 years researching various systems and that is the way *i *choose to go - be it for better or worse, it suits my ethical framework even if it has no other training advantages - i want to prove the e-collar/crate crowd yr wrong - ambitious i know and prolly doomed to fail from the start - but hey thats my choice.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Connie u read it wrong, i do want to marker train i've spent the last 2 years researching various systems and that is the way *i *choose to go - be it for better or worse, it suits my ethical framework even if it has no other training advantages - i want to prove the e-collar/crate crowd yr wrong - ambitious i know and prolly doomed to fail from the start - but hey thats my choice.


Well, you need a marker to marker train. Loading the marker just means making it clear to the dog what it means ("reward coming"). If it has no meaning to the dog, then it's not a marker for him. 

Marker training is pretty simple, but the basis on which it's built is the dog's understanding of what the marker means, and that he wants to do again what he was doing at that second to make that marker happen.

JMO!


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

having trouble explaining this - maybe i should have called the thread "when to start marker training" which yr correct i haven't done. i was just playing with food and some physical cues. "adding verbal cues" would have been better called "when to charge mark and start marker training"


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> ...would have been better called "when to charge mark"


Right now...O


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

consider operant conditioning.....markers = conditioned reinforcers.....for some, way too technical terms that don't apply to dogs, but since it has worked for decades for every species of animal on the planet, i don't agree 

works the same regardless of genetics, and takes longer than only using straight compulsion and applying the theory of "pack leadership"

imo, every other "new" and "improved" method of "positive", "reward based" training usually leaves out part of the system to get quicker easier results for simple levels of behaviors, and especially falls short when it comes to proofing and correcting failure to respond to a learned behavior since the the application of punishment is either not understood or considered abusive and avoided

but once learned, the Q of when to apply verbal cues to a behavior usually becomes self evident


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

but *once learned*, the Q of when to apply verbal cues to a behavior usually becomes self evident[/QUOTE]


uh yeah but that doesn't actually make me feel better about planning my training - its like saying once u can do it then u will have no problems doing it, true but ahh.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Peter, I do it from the onset. 

Some people do it differently and navigate through process in smaller pieces. I choose to make my expectations clear from the start and thus try to remove any variables that I don't want/need showing up later. Word paired with desired response = expected outcome. Everyone here has a method that works for them, this just happens to be mine.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Peter, I've titled in more then one dog sport with markers. You've been told to start NOW. START NOW! ](*,)
IF your trying to put your own spin on what you THINK marker training is then good luck. 
You've been given good advice here about when to add the verbal cue. It works! Don't try and drag this into some sort of twilight zone where you and your dog may never be found. 
If you haven't got it after 16 pages then nothing/no one here is going to fix that.
Post closed!


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