# How common are protection trained S&R dogs?



## Matt Grosch

Finally got my KNPV Dutchie, and while Im definitely looking at doing some foundation work for knpv and psa, I wondered about his potential for S&R. It turns out he might have a ton of potential, but my dept only uses labs for their teams. I think the liability/potential of non-labs is an issue for them. Im just trying to do some research.


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## Chris Michalek

well I got kicked out of the Maricopa county SAR group. Basic training.... man teases dog with ball, runs and hides....send mal to find him... Mal finds him and does bark and hold. It could have been fixed but they didn't like it and it's a lot of extra training I don't have time for.

Who are you going to train with?


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## mike suttle

Hey Matt, 
I am glad he made it there safely to you yesterday. He has the drive and stability for USAR for sure and at this point in his training it would not be an issue. Many USAR teams are a little gun shy about having Malis/Dutchies due to the fact that they are very easily triggered. The teams that do allow them are usually much more advanced in their training methods and in my opinion have much stronger teams from what I have seen. I deal with a couple Task Forces that get Malis , Dutchies, and GSDs from me and they are very well organized and squared away teams. 
I can give you some contacts of some team members who are using USAR dogs from us with no issues.
But I think as you do more bitework with the dog and as he becomes a little older and more serious your S&R team may not want to assume the liability.
Every team that buys a dog from me always asks if the dog has had any bitework, if it has they can not buy the dog.


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## Konnie Hein

mike suttle said:


> Every team that buys a dog from me always asks if the dog has had any bitework, if it has they can not buy the dog.


Really? Maybe I'm misinterpreting what you meant to say. I can't imagine "every team" (including those I know to have purchased dogs from you) fits this criteria.

Matt - the ability to safely do bitework and SAR depends entirely on the dog and the skills of the handler/trainer. That being said, there are SAR groups who will not allow it, so you have to consider the specific rules of the group you might be joining. 

We've discussed this before on the forum - maybe do a search to read those old threads?


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## Chris Michalek

Matt would most likely be looking to be a part of the same SAR group I was briefly training with. They do allow dogs with SPORT bite training as long as it doesn't show through in the SAR work. It didn't at first for me and my Mal but as I did more bite work with him it started to carry over in the Runaway exercises. I could have started to correct him for this but I didn't want to hinder his bite training as it's more important to me.


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## Carol Boche

Chris Michalek said:


> It didn't at first for me and my Mal but as I did more bite work with him it started to carry over in the Runaway exercises.


YEE HAW!!!! \\/

This is why I only do human remains with my Mal....LOL


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## mike suttle

Konnie Hein said:


> Really? Maybe I'm misinterpreting what you meant to say. I can't imagine "every team" (including those I know to have purchased dogs from you) fits this criteria.
> 
> Matt - the ability to safely do bitework and SAR depends entirely on the dog and the skills of the handler/trainer. That being said, there are SAR groups who will not allow it, so you have to consider the specific rules of the group you might be joining.
> 
> We've discussed this before on the forum - maybe do a search to read those old threads?


Konnie, all of the dogs that I have sold were dogs that did not do real bite work. I mean, of course they would bark to create movement for a tug, and they wold bite the tug, etc, but none of them were real bite dogs for sure.
In fact I have had several dogs returned to me from S&R clients for exchange if the dog even showed signs of having done bitework.
What dogs in particular are you thinking of that bite that came from me?


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## Jennifer Michelson

We have 2 Sch trained dogs on our wilderness sar unit. At this point we are all GSD's and everyone understands the training. It is stressed that who ever helps train the dog in sch keeps it all prey and understands that SAR is the priority. Our newest member who started his young dog in sch has said that he has changed the way he trains sch since joining the sar unit. 

I am interested in sch, but decided not to put official bite work on my current dog.


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## Bill Whatley

We have one in our club. SAR, narcotics detection, and does protection/French Ring. He is a very stable dog that just loves to work, and bites hard!


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## Carol Boche

What KILLS me is watching people against having a trained dog in the unit play TUG aggressively as a reward with their dogs......

Is that not a part of bitework training? AND....a lot of those dogs are pushy with their toy when they still want to play and the handlers think it is cute to watch people get mauled by the dog with a tug in it's mouth...."OH, Fluffy just wants to play more...."


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## Konnie Hein

mike suttle said:


> What dogs in particular are you thinking of that bite that came from me?


I was just assuming that all the green prospects, especially the older ones like Ajax (now Saphiro - the black GSD who was 2 or 3 when you sold him) had some sort of sleeve/suite work prior to being sold. I know you probably wouldn't sell "real bite dogs" to USAR/SAR teams - they would understandably be sold as dual purpose dogs. I'm referring to green dogs that were probably started as dual purpose prospects and they didn't make the cut for it. I think we're talking about different things. I'm talking about bite foundation work and I think you're talking about more advanced bite/protection training? 

My current USAR dog in training (an import from Slovakia) had plenty of bitework training when I purchased him and he was only 10 mos. of age. It really didn't matter to me or my teams, what mattered is that his temperament fit the job and my skill level.


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## mike suttle

You are correct Konnie, there was a difference in the definition of what we were talking about. Ajax for example was way to soft to be a dual purpose dog and his drives are not what I like to see in any phase for a police dog. But he was still very well suited for a S&R dog.
I bring up all of my puppies pretty much the same way to a certain age regardless of what job they will have, so I guess by definition they have foundation "bitework" but no real man work.
I completely believe that many dogs even with real man work could still be used for USAR work, but I can see the liability of that as well.
Most of the dogs that we have here will work for USAR even though they bite very well too, but due to the big price price difference between an upper end detection dog (Customs or Border Patrol) and a dog for USAR, most of our dogs who bite well are not even an option for USAR even if they are perfectly suitable for the job.


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## Konnie Hein

Gotcha, Mike. We're on the same page.


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## Keith Earle

Hi matt i was on fl2 for about 10 years, the fema cert people told us dogs could not have any bite work to be certified i was not a dog handler . but a haz mat guy. but my good buddy was a level2 evaluator, hope it helps at katina I met some very good mals and dutchies but were just sar dogs.


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## Konnie Hein

That might be a rule for FL2, Keith, but it's not a FEMA or SUSAR rule. Again, individual teams have individual rules.

ETA - I know of several people with FEMA certified dogs who also have SchH titles.


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## mike suttle

I know that every team has different policies. For example the Utah task force 1 guys do not allow a dog trained in bitework. I have also heard from handlers in OH, TN, and FL that they do not allow it either.
My advice to you Matt would be to do what you want with your dog as long as he remains clear headed, social and safe he will be fine for S&R, but I would not advertise that you are working him in bitework.
If he gets more serious in the work (which I honestly believe this dog will do with a little more age) then I would stop with the S&R work before something bad happens.
As for right now, your dog is very social, very confident, he has super strong nerves, great hunt and retrieve drive, and he climbs all over things like a monkey, so why not play with USAR for now?


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## Adam Rawlings

The RCMP here in Canada use their patrol dogs for SAR work. I don't know much behond that, but they must be succesfull if the dogs are used in both roles?


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## Chris McDonald

Adam Rawlings said:


> The RCMP here in Canada use their patrol dogs for SAR work. I don't know much behond that, but they must be succesfull if the dogs are used in both roles?


Is it true these guys get to spend a lot more time and money choosing the right dog than most, and even after a lot of time and effort some still get thrown to the side?


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## Jennifer Coulter

Chris McDonald said:


> Is it true these guys get to spend a lot more time and money choosing the right dog than most, and even after a lot of time and effort some still get thrown to the side?


The RCMP have their own breeding program...is that what you mean? Yes they have dogs that they breed that do not make it. Last I asked, they were having a higher success rate of dogs making it than they did when they were buying adults and are happy with the breeding program.

It is true that they are sometimes used for SAR purposes and are successful at it. Up to the handler and knowing their dog and the situation if they choose to search them off lead. Is this not the case with most LE? Are they not allowed to search for non criminal missing people?


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## Chris McDonald

Jennifer Coulter said:


> The RCMP have their own breeding program...is that what you mean? Yes they have dogs that they breed that do not make it. Last I asked, they were having a higher success rate of dogs making it than they did when they were buying adults and are happy with the breeding program.
> 
> It is true that they are sometimes used for SAR purposes and are successful at it. Up to the handler and knowing their dog and the situation if they choose to search them off lead. Is this not the case with most LE? Are they not allowed to search for non criminal missing people?


I get the impression they are doing something right, I didn’t know they did the breeding


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## Gerry Grimwood

The RCMP Police Dog Service implemented an in-house breeding program in 1998. The RCMP Puppy Program located in Innisfail, Alberta produces on average 120 German Shepherd puppies a year from proven stock. 
Over 50%, or 70, police dogs currently working in the RCMP were bred in RCMP Puppy Program. 
Another 70 that were raised in the program are now with other agencies worldwide
Currently, there are 125 RCMP dog teams across Canada

Do the math.


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## Chris McDonald

The rest are what we in the US call imports


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## Jennifer Coulter

Gerry Grimwood said:


> The RCMP Police Dog Service implemented an in-house breeding program in 1998. The RCMP Puppy Program located in Innisfail, Alberta produces on average 120 German Shepherd puppies a year from proven stock.
> Over 50%, or 70, police dogs currently working in the RCMP were bred in RCMP Puppy Program.
> Another 70 that were raised in the program are now with other agencies worldwide
> Currently, there are 125 RCMP dog teams across Canada
> 
> Do the math.


Is that from the website, or your personal info?

I found this on this page:
http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/depot/pdstc-cdcp/dogs-chiens/quick-facts-faits-en-bref-eng.htm

"A dog entering the RCMP training program has a 17 per cent chance of succeeding due to the high standards required. "
"It takes from 125 to 150 dogs in order for 35 to 45 teams to graduate. "

It appears to maybe be 2001 info though. Not sure if it is 3 years into their breeding program, pre breeding program or now?

Of course they are breeding all those dogs and don't use any (hardly) females on the street. I don't understand how it is cost effective, it can't be cheap.

I don't profess to understand these things. (being blond, I am no good at math). The RCMP members I have met seem happy with their dogs from the kennel.


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## Gerry Grimwood

It's from here http://bc.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/ViewPage.action?siteNodeId=232&languageId=1&contentId=-1

The Alberta site has no info anymore on teams or dogs, this info used to be there.

They probably didn't produce those numbers at first but just for example....120 pups yearly for 10 yrs...1200 pups..say half were female...600 male pups.

125 active teams, how many are Labs etc..doesn't say but there are more than a few. I can't see either how it could be cost effective to raise all those pups to get so few they can use even when you factor in the 2 yr start and 7 yr retirement (average) and figure out how many potentially could be ready to start every year ?

Federal funding has deep pockets :|


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## Matt Grosch

regarding who, and what training...


I thought sheriff joe (maricopa county) has a (volunteer?) S&R program for wilderness type environments. But out of curiosity I called one of the guys from my dept that does S&R, he filled me in on their FEMA training (rubble search) and deployment requiements. In their program they use only labs that are owned by a non-profit, not privately owned so if you leave the team you also leave the dog. So sounds like I will be out of luck there, but if I can catch them training sometime I will try to join them.

I know the sheriff personally from the neighboring county, and their police k9's train with the city I am a reserve ofc with and have started to decoy for, so I might have some other options.


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## Sarah Atlas

I am part of a usar team and have an older shepherd who has done alot of bite work. my youngest team dog has also done some bite work (sleeve and suit) both dogs are also therapy certified and hold C.G.C's. Like Konnie said, depends on the dog/handler and training

sarah


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## Sarah Atlas

most of the dogs from the National Disaster Dog Program are given to Fire fighters on some FEMA teams. The majority of the handlers supply their own dogs.


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## Nancy Jocoy

The topic is rehashed repeatedly. I have seen enough of SAR dogs and handlers not getting enough training as it is so I sure don't know how the handlers and dogs have TIME to pursue another discipline.

To me, the risks to the team and SAR in general if something, no matter small, did happen [and what the press and insurance companies would do to it] are so great that it is not worth taking.


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## Chris Michalek

Matt Grosch said:


> regarding who, and what training...
> 
> 
> I thought sheriff joe (maricopa county) has a (volunteer?) S&R program for wilderness type environments. But out of curiosity I called one of the guys from my dept that does S&R, he filled me in on their FEMA training (rubble search) and deployment requiements. In their program they use only labs that are owned by a non-profit, not privately owned so if you leave the team you also leave the dog. So sounds like I will be out of luck there, but if I can catch them training sometime I will try to join them.
> 
> I know the sheriff personally from the neighboring county, and their police k9's train with the city I am a reserve ofc with and have started to decoy for, so I might have some other options.


http://www.maricopa-k9.com/
This is the group I trained with for a few times. It's a lot of work to train a dog in two disciplines. I don't blame the Mal for thinking bite when somebody comes to tease him and then runs to hide that it's bite game. It's not that different from some of the bitework we've been doing.

As for the group, they seem like people and most of them are serious people. What I didn't like is most of them use their pets for this and tend to show a pet owner mentality with wanting the dog to sniff each other etc. I don't like having my dogs around any other dogs. 

They also will require that your dog is social enough so another handler can handle your dog if you're out on a trail. I don't mean bring the dog out but if the dog is crated for a few hours they want to be able to let it out of the crate to walk it and give it piss break. I don't want other people to handle my dog.


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## Melody Greba

mike suttle said:


> I know that every team has different policies. For example the Utah task force 1 guys do not allow a dog trained in bitework. I have also heard from handlers in OH, TN, and FL that they do not allow it either.


 I was a handler on OH-TF1, everyone knew that I did schutzhund sport work with my dogs. I was still accepted on the K9 team with this information in full view. OH only had 2 certified dogs at that time, and as a federal TF has to take 4 out the door on deployment. 

Since my transfer from OH-TF1 to IN-TF1, there has been a shift in leadership at OH-TF1. When Hutch from TN-TF1 was in charge of OH's 
K9, of course he promoted labs only. Reasons beyond the bitework liability concept.

Now OH has a new K9 coordinator. 

Many FEMA TFs poo poo, schutzhund started dogs and prefer labs because the handlers need to have a less complicated dog to handle. Some TFs don't want civilian handlers and only want firefighters on their TFs. Most FFs need labs and don't have the same passion that we as protection sport handlers, have. Labs are basic. 

There are FEMA handlers that do schutzhund and do SAR. Mature Sch dogs often become indoctrinated to the sport work and are not carried over into patrol/real work scenarios, these dogs usually have a better foundation than a lot of others in the SAR work because of the regular and time consuming training, social aspect and discipline. The benefit to this is that it is proven compared to any other dog (including labs) that their reactiability has not been tested.

A dog's nerves should not cause him to react in an unsafe manner especially if having bitework training, an obviously reactive dog really needs further evaluation. 

As for PPD dogs doing SAR, I wouldn't prefer it; especially with a dutchie. Dutchie nerves are often shakey. Idealisticallly, SAR dogs should have rock solid nerves, hence many labs. 

Schutzhund indoctrinates dogs to precise rules of the sport game and association to the field, helper, blinds, and other clues becomes part of the dog's schema over time. Which is why most LE dept talk trash about sch dogs not being "real dogs". Although most imported dogs for LE are from sport clubs (schutzhund clubs), the dogs weren't fully developed in their sport role and weren't fully mature when they were sold as LE prospects. 

This is the long and the short of bitework, USAR and dogs.


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## Konnie Hein

Nancy Jocoy said:


> The topic is rehashed repeatedly. I have seen enough of SAR dogs and handlers not getting enough training as it is so I sure don't know how the handlers and dogs have TIME to pursue another discipline.
> 
> To me, the risks to the team and SAR in general if something, no matter small, did happen [and what the press and insurance companies would do to it] are so great that it is not worth taking.


I guess it is a "too each his or her own" type of thing. I have plenty of time to train my dog in multiple disciplines. I currently have 3 dogs "in training" and one FEMA certified dog whose training I have to maintain. The 3 dogs in training are a 4 month old puppy, an adult dog training for HR and a young adult dog training for FR and USAR. I have no trouble fitting it in, but then again, I consider it my job since I don't need to work.

This is the first time I've cross trained a dog for a protection sport and USAR. I haven't had any problems with him yet and I don't expect to. There's definitely a balance to maintain and I make it very clear to him what the rules are of each discipline. My USAR training mentor trains and titles all of her SAR dogs (who do both wilderness and USAR) in SchH, as do a couple of her teammates. A bite incident has never occurred with these dogs. Not even close.

I wonder if it is an unfounded fear of SAR groups (based on a lack of understanding of protection sports) or if there are incidents occurring that prompt them to have such restrictions. I know of one USAR team that experienced difficulty with one of their dogs biting, but it was a team that used patrol dogs at the time. They no longer use patrol dogs and strictly use Labs. To me, there is a difference between a patrol dog and a sport protection trained dog. On the other hand, there is another USAR team who still uses strictly patrol dogs and I've not heard of them having a problem. I've seen these dogs train and test and they work like any other properly trained USAR dog.

Just as an aside, I know a couple of patrol dogs who responded to the WTC on 9/11. They were concerned about their dogs biting victims when found. When they expressed their concerns, they were told, "We'd rather be taking victims to the hospital for dog bites than to the morgue." Probably not a PC thing to say, but something to think about.


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## Nancy Jocoy

Dog handlers like you though are the exception and not the rule. 

I really don't think it is a lack of understanding on the part of SAR teams; I know several of the teams in my state have - LE [some as K9 patrol dog handlers], people who have been in dogsport etc, and those people seem to share the same concerns. 

I would hate to see years of building up a team vanish because of a possible incident with one dog knowing that bite training would kill our insurance and the press would have a field day.

I would think the wilderness SAR environment presents different challenges, more frequent real life searches than disaster, and victims more likely to have actual contact with the dog. I could be wrong though.


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## Melody Greba

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Dog handlers like you though are the exception and not the rule.
> 
> I really don't think it is a lack of understanding on the part of SAR teams; I know several of the teams in my state have - LE [some as K9 patrol dog handlers], people who have been in dogsport etc, and those people seem to share the same concerns.
> 
> I would hate to see years of building up a team vanish because of a possible incident with one dog knowing that bite training would kill our insurance and the press would have a field day.


Actually, for many SAR teams there is a lack of understanding and lack of dog behavior knowledge. Often their dog knowledge is not broad based. And often do not regard driveful dogs as an asset. Many a pet mentality type person in K9 SAR. And rhetoric among these circles, fly! And schutzhund is a great catalyst for it.

The unfortunate thing about this is the quality of SAR K9 that have aggression issues and aren't thorougly tested and sorted out. I've known many more pet dogs (and alot of SAR dogs are basically pets with a vest) that do not have the discipline or training for any service work and the tendency to bite is greater. And some of these SAR dogs with their in-house certifications are being serviced regardless of known, questional behavior because of ego. 

But I do understand how the legal system could have a field day with this information. It would take the right defense attorney to defend the dog team accused. But it could be done with the right knowledge put forth.


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## Konnie Hein

I think the thing people sometimes forget is that all dogs bite. The question is, does training them in protection sports make them more or less prone to accidental biting than a dog not trained as such? 

Carol touched on this - rewarding a dog with a bite/play on a tug is rewarding him with a bite. Not too much different than a suit or a sleeve. I know from personal experience with a couple of SAR dogs that teaching them targeting in sport work went a long way in preventing accidents with helpers when rewarding with a bite on a tug. My own Lab has tagged my husband on the hand in play - hard enough to draw blood and require stitches - when he was going for the toy. He also broke the finger of one of our helpers during a training exercise. He's never had any bite training.


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## Gillian Schuler

I don't have too much SAR training behind me but my dog IPO3, had no problem adjusting. OK he was sometimes a nuisance when it rained and he shook his "feathers" before lying down next to the found person (Briard) but my mate's GSD was IP0 3, too, and a police dog to boot.

I guess it depends on how you train the dog. Some train with "dummys" until the dog knows the runouts (Schläge).

Chris M. It is not incorrect here to bark when the person has been found. The only reason a lot do not do it, is that it puts the dog into another "state".

I think, at least over here, there are a lot of biased opinions. SchH and IPO handlers "look down on the SAR dogs" and the SAR dog handlers are sceptical of the Schutzhund dogs.

It's like Mondio and Schutz all over again. Both think each other's sport is nuts.


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## Chris Michalek

Gillian Schuler said:


> Chris M. It is not incorrect here to bark when the person has been found. The only reason a lot do not do it, is that it puts the dog into another "state".



I know, but I could see the conflict in the dog. He never bit anybody. My heart wasn't in SAR as I am more into protection sports. I think Konnie Hein is successful because her focus is SAR first with a solid foundation in that area and schH 2nd? I dunno. I have more fun with the protection stuff and maybe I'll approach SAR later on in the future when a foundation in one sport or another has been established.


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## Konnie Hein

Chris Michalek said:


> I know, but I could see the conflict in the dog. He never bit anybody. My heart wasn't in SAR as I am more into protection sports. I think Konnie Hein is successful because her focus is SAR first with a solid foundation in that area and schH 2nd?


Blasphemy! I cross-train my dog in FR. :smile: 
I think it depends on the dog as to what the balance of sport and SAR is. 

My friend who does SchH with her SAR dogs keeps all the SchH work in prey until long after they are SAR certified. Then she'll allow other things to be brought out. At least, that's what she tells me. I'm doing something a little different with my young Mal and it's based on his temperament, prior training, and my personal training goals.


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## Gillian Schuler

Chris, I agree, in a way. I gave up SAR because I couldn't put the time into it that was needed to trial in it but I really enjoyed the training as opposed to the tight exercises in IPO. We even started the Fila Brasilerio in it. He wasn't struck on scenting the persons / article out but he loved going out to show Toni where they all were.

Unfortunately, in the early training stages, it was usus to give the young dog a reward (kibble, etc.) and if this wasn't promptly forthcoming, Gaucho would bark impatiently but it was taken as aggression!!

I put it all down to experience: humans are far more complicated than dogs.


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## Carol Boche

Melody Greba said:


> The unfortunate thing about this is the quality of SAR K9 that have aggression issues and aren't thorougly tested and sorted out. I've known many more pet dogs (and alot of SAR dogs are basically pets with a vest) that do not have the discipline or training for any service work and the tendency to bite is greater. And some of these SAR dogs with their in-house certifications are being serviced regardless of known, questional behavior because of ego.


AMEN!!!!

This statement is absolutely true. And, for those of us that work hard at what we do take the fall out for it. 
I am currently getting crap from a team member because I am too LEO minded and our organization is nothing because we are not more inviting to the "general public" that wants to do SAR.....


Ole Couch Potato Most of the Time Only Likes Praise As a Reward Don't Get In His Face Or He Might Bite Well I Thought He Liked Kids And He Hates The Colder Weather But He Just Wants To Play Owner Wants Him To Have A Job To Avoid Him Eating The Couch Which Is A Training Issue As The Dog Has Minimal To NO Drives Fluffy.....has NO PLACE in SAR

Of course my dogs are thought of as CRAZY when they get out to work....and comments like "oh, they don't need to be like that." or "no way do I want a dog like that" 

Well, enter in to AKC stuff peeps.....we want dogs that WANT to WORK. 

I am to the point where if that is the way they want it to be....I am better off getting out of it (I get requested enough privately or by other organizations that I belong to). I will not be part of a froo froo team. And to be honest.....that is mostly what I get when people join.....except a couple people which keep me going because they have great dogs, are sponges when learning and know the path we need to be on to be taken seriously. 

One of the excuses made for not coming to training was....."well, we don't know where you (meaning me) are at since you are doing Sport work now" W.T.F.?????????

oops: sorry....back to the original topic  )


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## Konnie Hein

Carol Boche said:


> Well, enter in to AKC stuff peeps.....we want dogs that WANT to WORK.


You mean you don't want to practically stand on your head, waving a froo-froo toy or food around just to get the SAR-dog prospect to even look at you? For SHAME!


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## Carol Boche

Konnie Hein said:


> You mean you don't want to practically stand on your head, waving a froo-froo toy or food around just to get the SAR-dog prospect to even look at you? For SHAME!


Yeah....I'm a bitch like that....\\/


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## Bob Scott

I've cross trained dogs most of my life and didn't even know I was doing it. I thought I was just having a good time and exposing them to the world. 
SAR and Schutzhund with the same dog? Did that! Now you can even buy cross training shoes! Go figure! 
With a good dog and good training none of it creates problems. Trouble is, the powers that be are often totally clueless about dog training/behaviour.


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## Gillian Schuler

We used to have S&R regional trainings and I went to one of them. I knew the chap running it, he was Swiss Champion with many dogs (all black labrador bitches all called "Bonnie").

I wasn't in his group but afterwards he asked me "how did it go?" and I said I'd had a bit of trouble recalling him when he hadn't found anything and he said "be thankful your dog goes out that far on command, half of the others had to be nearly pushed out".

At one time, if your dog was no good at bitework you were advised to do S&R. Some still think like this but some realise you need an athletic, well motivated dog, whether or not it does bitework, is a police dog, does obedience or whatever.


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## Melody Greba

Gillian Schuler said:


> We used to have S&R regional trainings and I went to one of them. I knew the chap running it, he was Swiss Champion with many dogs (all black labrador bitches all called "Bonnie").
> 
> At one time, if your dog was no good at bitework you were advised to do S&R. Some still think like this but some realise you need an athletic, well motivated dog, whether or not it does bitework, is a police dog, does obedience or whatever.


I think that's really funny, calling all of one's labrador bitches, Bonnie. That really is funny!

One of the things that might help in the crossing over of people's views about proper driveful behavior and good work is the RH titles. I know people that want to train for SAR and not go out on deployments. They can train for sport SAR titles and enjoy the activity with their dog and this is good for them. 

Meanwhile, the people doing wilderness SAR and deploy in their communities can participate in the RH and be able to guage their training via a little competition. 

And the RH titles are a nice little step, prior to getting on a real SAR team providing the "powers in charge" are open minded enought to keep their mouthes closed and their ears and eyes open to a possible good prospect for their team.


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## Nancy Jocoy

I think you will see that many of the serious SAR teams DO have drivey dogs from the same stock working police K9s come from [or crazy labs] and don't waste too much time on pets though sometimes there is a very pleasant surprise in the mix. 

I think one thing missed in some of these threads is, yes, a few folks can do both disciplines but *most * people I have met struggle to meet up with the training and deployment requirements for being an active SAR volunteer let alone do multiple dog things.

We had 6 call-outs in August - add that to a full time job and training and managing team business and doing demos and fundraisers and it all adds way up in time and money. 

The dog is but a small part of the unpaid volunteer job. Throwing more variables in the mix is simply too much for most. So doing one thing well has its merits. Most of the people who join just to do something with their dog wash out anyway when they find out the committment required.

Don't even have a clue what the "RH" test involves, what are the prerequisites, what value it has, etc. But it would be hard for me to justify spending time and money testing to it if it has no credibility with LE, like NAPWDA testing does....... 

For screening candidates, the Brownell Marsolais test seems pretty good.......


----------



## Melody Greba

Nancy Jocoy said:


> I think one thing missed in some of these threads is, yes, a few folks can do both disciplines but *most * people I have met struggle to meet up with the training and deployment requirements for being an active SAR volunteer let alone do multiple dog things.
> 
> We had 6 call-outs in August - add that to a full time job and training and managing team business and doing demos and fundraisers and it all adds way up in time and money.
> 
> The dog is but a small part of the unpaid volunteer job. Throwing more variables in the mix is simply too much for most. So doing one thing well has its merits. Most of the people who join just to do something with their dog wash out anyway when they find out the committment required.
> 
> Don't even have a clue what the "RH" test involves, what are the prerequisites, what value it has, etc. But it would be hard for me to justify spending time and money testing to it if it has no credibility with LE, like NAPWDA testing does.......


Nancy:

Your right, the endeavor is more than many people realize. Keeping up the human component, knowing how to properly select and train a dog to a reliable status is bigger than what most people realize. Handlers do need to be financially secure, have the time, and have the desire to do what is best for the job. Its a wonder that anyone would do it at all.

RH are sport titles, they aren't for certification. Its a nice venue for people who don't want to do AKC but want to teach SAR skills without wanting to deploy. However, the upper RH titles are a better test of skills than a lot of in-house certification. They aren't a subsituted for testing, its a title and people who enjoy it, may go forth and search out a SAR team to join.


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## Nancy Jocoy

The other side of that is it depends on the pre-training you get. It is easier to train a green handler and dog than to fix problems created by early training particularly if it may be by someone who thinks they know about SAR but don't have any real experience.

[Can I tell you how may Workingline GSD breeders have told me a SAR dog does NOT need as much drive as a sport dog?]

Plus folks go through a phase where they learn a little and think they know a lot.....they have to get knocked back down to "I don't know s..t" before they can really start learning again.

I would suggest anyone looking for a team:

What is their training program?

What kind of and how many call outs do they get? It may take a newer team some time to start being regularly called and then buidling those relationships is a LOT of work.

What are the attendance expectations?

How do they certify? I personally don't have a problem with robust in house certs -which can be tougher than national ones - and those can be done with third party evaluators - but LE certs always desirable. We DO make the cadaver dogs have external certs due to liklihood of court. 

Does a cert gurantee the dog is deployable? I sure hope not. The cert goes in the book as a required checkoff - the day to day performance in training is what matters for deployment.

What are the expectations of time and money?

Be open to why they may not want a dog with bitework. They really may have some valid reasons and not be clueless about it.


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## Melody Greba

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Be open to why they may not want a dog with bitework. They really may have some valid reasons and not be clueless about it.


And of course this comes around full circle. 

With the demands of doing SAR for real; with available time, finances, knowledge, etc.; It is a wonder that many people can do real SAR, well. And with that in mind, because SAR is very demanding on the handler and the handler's family, many people take short cuts and talk a big story and provide many excuses. 
There have unfortunately been SAR K9 handlers on the other side of the law in court defending themselves, which is the bigger liability because they are self-titled professionals. They are no longer fall under the good samaritan clause. 

Seems to me these people are a much bigger liability if their dogs and their own personal training has missed a victim or provided false hope than the fear of a schutzhund dog biting someone because of uneducated speculation. Its morally wrong because of the intent, not because dogs can't make a mistake; they aren't infallible. 

I understand the legal problem that you reference. In America if you are afraid of being sued, you'd better not leave your house. If a handler is doing their job right, then chances are that you and your partner is doing good community service and not harm.

With those of us, and that have crossed over from the highly disciplined dogsport venue into the SAR K9 discipline, we do take it seriously.


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## Melody Greba

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Be open to why they may not want a dog with bitework. They really may have some valid reasons and not be clueless about it.


And of course this comes around full circle. 

With the demands of doing SAR for real; with available time, finances, knowledge, etc.; It is a wonder that many people can do real SAR, well. And with that in mind, because SAR is very demanding on the handler and the handler's family, many people take short cuts and talk a big story and provide many excuses. 
There have unfortunately been SAR K9 handlers on the other side of the law in court defending themselves rather than testifying, which is the bigger liability because they are self-titled professionals. They are no longer fall under the good samaritan clause. 

Seems to me these people are a much bigger liability if their dogs and their own personal training has missed a victim or provided false hope compared to fear of a schutzhund dog biting someone due to uneducated speculation. Falsifying and being ill-prepared is morally wrong, not that dogs can't make a mistake; they aren't infallible. 

I understand the legal problem that you reference. In America if you are afraid of being sued, you'd better not leave your house. If a handler is doing their job right, then chances are that you and your partner is doing good community service and not harm.

With those of us, and that have crossed over from the highly disciplined dogsport venue into the SAR K9 discipline, we do take it seriously as we thought that was the idea.


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## Matt Grosch

Melody Greba said:


> And of course this comes around full circle.
> 
> With the demands of doing SAR for real; with available time, finances, knowledge, etc.; It is a wonder that many people can do real SAR, well. And with that in mind, because SAR is very demanding on the handler and the handler's family, many people take short cuts and talk a big story and provide many excuses.
> There have unfortunately been SAR K9 handlers on the other side of the law in court defending themselves, which is the bigger liability because they are self-titled professionals. They are no longer fall under the good samaritan clause.
> 
> Seems to me these people are a much bigger liability if their dogs and their own personal training has missed a victim or provided false hope than the fear of a schutzhund dog biting someone because of uneducated speculation. Its morally wrong because of the intent, not because dogs can't make a mistake; they aren't infallible.
> 
> I understand the legal problem that you reference. In America if you are afraid of being sued, you'd better not leave your house. If a handler is doing their job right, then chances are that you and your partner is doing good community service and not harm.
> 
> With those of us, and that have crossed over from the highly disciplined dogsport venue into the SAR K9 discipline, we do take it seriously.




For good or bad....legally things arent that way. Your S&R dog could miss ten victims and you wouldn't be liable/responsible because you had no obligation to find them. But, if you cause the situation/harm, then you are liable.

IE- If the police took an hour to get to your house and burglars murdered everyone, they would not be liable. But if they go their and take unreasonable action (shooting, etc) they would be liable for the damage they caused.


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## Konnie Hein

Matt Grosch said:


> For good or bad....legally things arent that way. Your S&R dog could miss ten victims and you wouldn't be liable/responsible because you had no obligation to find them. But, if you cause the situation/harm, then you are liable.
> 
> IE- If the police took an hour to get to your house and burglars murdered everyone, they would not be liable. But if they go their and take unreasonable action (shooting, etc) they would be liable for the damage they caused.


Things are rapidly changing in that regard, Matt. It's pretty scary, actually.


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## Melody Greba

Matt Grosch said:


> For good or bad....legally things arent that way. Your S&R dog could miss ten victims and you wouldn't be liable/responsible because you had no obligation to find them. But, if you cause the situation/harm, then you are liable.


 You're right, dogs can miss a victim and the handler isn't held legally responsible, most of the time. I'm trying to remember the situation out in UT?? a few years ago....? and I believe a child died. Maybe somebody has detailed info on this.


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## Nancy Jocoy

Well, we struggled with the decision - and there are 3 people on our team who have participated in schutzhund, one who still does but not with his team dog, and another who grew up in Germany in a schutzhund family - and their insight was that team SAR dogs should not be involved in bitework. 

I think KY is one of those states that has a blanket policy for whatever reason against bite trained dogs unless things have changed. I know NC folks were open until a serious bite during a SAR training by a dog with bite training. 

I saw the scar - dog ripped open the man's stomach. Handler had no control. Yes bad case but it really happened and you cannot convince those folks it was some kind of fluke.

You see, there are serious folks who do sport bitework but there is also a lot of "beer and testosterone only" into the bitework and not so much into the obedience. Just as there are slack SAR folks and serious SAR folks - same thing with sports folks. 

I understand a PROPERLY trained sport dog with the right temperament is going to be able to be called off while he is in drive, even fight drive, but the dog may be offlead and maybe a half mile away when he makes the find. If a victim hauls ass or swings at it the ONLY thing that should register in that dogs mind is to get the handler there. Having a dog not have to make a decision because there is only ONE decision just makes sense to me


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## Nancy Jocoy

Melody Greba said:


> You're right, dogs can miss a victim and the handler isn't held legally responsible, most of the time. I'm trying to remember the situation out in UT?? a few years ago....? and I believe a child died. Maybe somebody has detailed info on this.


I don't know of the Utah case but there was one in NC- Greensboro area about 10 years ago. That is the only case of a known "miss" in the Carolinas I know of involving SAR dogs; conversely I recall several where they were NOT deployed and the victim was later found dead in the search area.......... 

If anybody thinks even the BEST dog/handler team can be 100% all of the time then they are a fool.


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## Matt Grosch

Konnie Hein said:


> Things are rapidly changing in that regard, Matt. It's pretty scary, actually.




How so? I know there is case law saying police arent responsible in that they dont have a duty to the citizens (again, only liable for damage they cause, not harm they fail to prevent)


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## Konnie Hein

Maybe Jennifer Coulter can comment on the case in Canada - where a guy is suing a SAR team for failure to act after he and his wife were lost and his wife died. Not sure how the details of that ended up. Jenn?


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## Bill Whatley

Yes, it is part of some peoples protection. I do not recommend it after the puppy stages. Reward...O.K....aggressive tugging with the handler, that's what the decoy is for.It has got to be a balancing act between the dog/handler team. I get mauled, look up and see the dog running off with the handler, celebrating and biting her shoes!?! And they found a cadaver and 3-kilos of coke! I'm just banked up and sore..?.and who knows? We all have to balance it out and there is no answer for all.


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## Nancy Jocoy

Konnie Hein said:


> Maybe Jennifer Coulter can comment on the case in Canada - where a guy is suing a SAR team for failure to act after he and his wife were lost and his wife died. Not sure how the details of that ended up. Jenn?


In that case the SAR team did everything right as I understand it - they just were not deployed until too late. 

There was a recent search in the NC mountains where a neighboring team was not called unitll the 70 year old hiker was missing for a week! By the grace of God they found him alive.


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## Jennifer Coulter

Konnie Hein said:


> Maybe Jennifer Coulter can comment on the case in Canada - where a guy is suing a SAR team for failure to act after he and his wife were lost and his wife died. Not sure how the details of that ended up. Jenn?



I will let you know how it turns out. There is a lawsuit claiming negligence and seeking damages against the RCMP, Golden SAR, and the ski resort where the couple ducked the ropes to go out of bounds.


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## Sarah Atlas

as for LE not using patrol dogs for non criminal searches...in my area, South Jersey, LE is pretty dead set against utilizing competent, certified sar dogs.....My USAR team is run directly under the state police/ through OEM/homeland security branch. The past few years they are using our dogs less and less. talk about libility.

We work closely with them . our dogs are tested to FEMA standards under FEMA instructors. We are 
certified through the SUSAR system. the state AG's office over sees all we do. and yet.....

I am even a USPCA member with a special membership (non-LE) and utilized very little


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## Nancy Jocoy

Liability insurance is our team's biggest annual expense at over $3000 a year and we make sure LE knows that we carry it.


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## Melody Greba

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Well, we struggled with the decision - and there are 3 people on our team who have participated in schutzhund, one who still does but not with his team dog, and another who grew up in Germany in a schutzhund family - and their insight was that team SAR dogs should not be involved in bitework.
> 
> I think KY is one of those states that has a blanket policy for whatever reason against bite trained dogs unless things have changed. I know NC folks were open until a serious bite during a SAR training by a dog with bite training.
> 
> I saw the scar - dog ripped open the man's stomach. Handler had no control. Yes bad case but it really happened and you cannot convince those folks it was some kind of fluke.
> 
> You see, there are serious folks who do sport bitework but there is also a lot of "beer and testosterone only" into the bitework and not so much into the obedience. Just as there are slack SAR folks and serious SAR folks - same thing with sports folks.
> 
> I understand a PROPERLY trained sport dog with the right temperament is going to be able to be called off while he is in drive, even fight drive, but the dog may be offlead and maybe a half mile away when he makes the find. If a victim hauls ass or swings at it the ONLY thing that should register in that dogs mind is to get the handler there. Having a dog not have to make a decision because there is only ONE decision just makes sense to me


Nancy:

All I'm saying in all of this is that when I got into it, the level of competent training in the general SAR community was very low standards and accountability to the point of putting people at risk. This is what I witnessed and I travelled around a bit so I'd get my human skill component to a quality level, as well as train my dog.

If someone from my family or friends were in a predictament, I'd want to know what SAR K9 teams were called and I'd probably be making a lot of calls too. There are some SAR K9 teams that I wouldn't hold my breath in finding me or anyone that I know. And others that I know are quality teams.

And I don't care if the dog had sch training or not, if they are competent search dogs with stable temperament and professional searcher/handler, then by all means...they should be there.

As for your comment about your German sport friend's opinion on cross training Sch and SAR, this is just one opinion. I've been to Germany several times, train sport work in Germany just as I have been to many sch clubs here in the US. A German opinon is no different than any other opinion, its just another opinion and I know other opinions German and otherwise that differ. 

I also don't know the circumstances regarding the dog that ripped up someone in the stomach. That is so uncharacteristic of a sport dog that I won't even begin. Let alone the testosterone comment that pertains to bitework. Sch bitework has so much obedience in that element, that it is about all control. That is why adult dogs get so indoctrinated to the sleeve, the blinds, the helper; and the control work done by the handler, it is quite demanding...all for the necessary points that they are striving for. 

Regardless of my experience and opinion and many others that have spend a couple/three decades in the sch sport world, each prospective dog/handler should be individually evaluated for their contribution regardless of sch background or not, and whether or not they are an benefit or a liability. 

And a liability includes having a nervy pet dog that has higher reactibility due to lack of nerve strength that can not only "go off" on someone but also lack in mental stamina in a real working scenario. As well as a handler that doesn't have the discipline to learn, train, and be accountable for the job in which they are undertaking. 

As for sch dogs doing SAR, they also need to be evaluated for their nerve strength as they also cannot be painted with a broad brush. I know a very few that would not make suitable SAR K9s. But I know a whole lot more that are highly suitable. 

The people that "claim" to do sch and only showed up for less than a hand full of times are also fairly common. When these types find out that they are expected to track and do obedience properly, they often leave but they continue to tell people they "do schutzhund". There was a court case of a mauling in OK I believe, where someone went to a sch club once or twice and then their dog mauled a child and it was brought up in court. Bottom line was the person with the dog was told they couldn't bring their dog to the sch club due to the dog's unstable temperament and lack of their control and all of this was brought out in court. 

Schutzhund in the beginning became a good testing tool to maintain proper working temperament for many types of work in the gsd so the dog didn't become a nervy genetic mess.


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## Chris McDonald

With the % of real finds does it really matter? Hell you might as well have junk yard pits out there searching. I’d rather be found and bit then never found. When I hit 60 or 65 and can’t move well I’m gona get in to this SAR stuff too. I might get a dog from Lee to do it. If I was stupid enough to be in an avalanche I deserve to be bit.


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## Konnie Hein

Nancy Jocoy said:


> After putting 10 years into this I am so happy to hear that we are all a bunch of inept boobs who would be so much better if only some *real* dogsport folks came to show us how to do this...................


If I had a dollar for every time I was treated that way, I'd have lot more money to spend on my dogs, that's for sure.

That being said, I've met inept boobs (as well as competent trainers) in all venues of dog training that I've ventured into. Not limited to SAR, that's for sure.


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## Jennifer Michelson

Hey Chris,

Why dont you go on and get lost....Us inept boobs will come looking for you...really....we'll get right on it.....just keep waiting, we'll be there............


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## Bob Scott

Jennifer Michelson said:


> Hey Chris,
> 
> Why dont you go on and get lost....Us inept boobs will come looking for you...really....we'll get right on it.....just keep waiting, we'll be there............


:-k......Not sure if he can count on all of you to show up. JMHO! :twisted:


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## Chris McDonald

Come on Konnie, Jen, you know am not busting on your level of people …. It’s the 1000s that want to be like you without the work. Don’t kid yourself out know there out there. 
And Jen I played that game with hide and go seek when I was little. You know I go hide and nobody seeks 
My point is with all the dogs out there do you really have to use a dog with bite work? Even thought the dog is level headed and he owner has control the chances of something going wrong are still slightly higher.


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## Nancy Jocoy

I deleted my somewhat emotional thread last night about the incompetent boobs [Konnie replied to it before it disappeard] - and am coming back less emotional.

We all know there are some bad teams out there but the constant slamming creates an impresssion that everyone on a SAR team is out with fluffy who won't chase a ball and is scared of its shadow and trains once a month but only when the weather is good - honestly now - where are all these cases I keep hearing about where a missing person was NOT located by a civilian volunteer SAR team? 

Most of the folks on teams who are like this don't last very long. 

When something like that happens everyone in the SAR community is talking either on boards or in private emails and it is far less common than the actual "finds" that are made and lives that are saved or closure that is brought.

It IS very frustrating that some of the pop-up teams seem to have all the money and go to the press and whine if they are not utilized - very unethical and unprofessional - but pushing for state requirements volunteer teams must have in those states that don't already have them can help in that regard.


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## Melody Greba

Nancy Jocoy said:


> We all know there are some bad teams out there but the constant slamming creates an impresssion that everyone on a SAR team is out with fluffy who won't chase a ball and is scared of its shadow and trains once a month but only when the weather is good - honestly now - where are all these cases I keep hearing about where a missing person was NOT located by a civilian volunteer SAR team?


I guess its all a matter of perception and realization. There are boobs in SAR K9 and their are excellent qualified K9 teams. And the quality teams are worth their weight in gold. Too bad the others are making the impressions.

Unfortunately, throwing the baby out with the bath water by not assesssing a prospective team based on their assets is the subject.

One of the additional points about the schutzhund venue that many people on the outside looking in do not realize, is this: we have youth teams. In our protection sport, yes, we have children that have shown Sch3 dogs in competition with all the control and poise as any good competitor. And yup, We have 80 yr old people training and trialing their dogs. It's a Family Sport that's been around in Europe for over a hundred years. 

In America, it came about as a sport that some good motivated people flocked to, then it became business oriented which in my opinion, hurt the sport, hence the braggards about "doing schutzhund" when they only went a saw it, once. 

And lastly, we have disabled people training and trialing schutzhund dogs. A good friend of mine is parapalegic; trained and trialed his dog from puppy to Sch3. He showed her at the Nationals in N.M. several years ago. They had to get special permission since he trials on a 4-wheeler. Another man more recently in Wash. state is doing the same with his dog. Vermon Crowder from CA was blind and competed in the 80's at national events with his Sch3 dog. 

Although, Delta dogs cannot be sch trained/titled, but Therapy Dogs International do not bias against sch sport titled dogs. And talking with representatives from Sportsman's Insurance, they have no problem covering sch clubs on their insurance because they aren't a problem.

I cannot personally base any opinion on the other prot dog sports, like ring sport, KNVP, and PSA; as I don't have any indept experience in these. I do know personal protection work too and that is also a different compared to sport training. And the premise with PSA is to create exercises more life-like to actual protection related circumstances

If the dogs and the handlers/helpers are so dangerous and testosterone based, if this is the perception; then I invite you to training. Both with my SAR K9 and sport training. 

We did a short documentary last year for public television, prior to the WUSV event held near me. 
http://www.ket.org/kentuckylife/1400s/kylife1426.html

BTW, do you know the list of sch titled dogs that are out there reliabily workin in SAR K9?


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## Daryl Ehret

_"hence the braggards about "doing schutzhund" when they only went a saw it, once."_

That reminds me of a conversation I had with someone who once told me that they trained in schutzhund. The person went on to state that they trained at the club I was a member of. "Oh really, how come I've never seen you there?" The reply was "Oh, it was a long time ago, maybe about a year or two." Since I'd been in the club for nearly three years at the time, I knew better, and the truth was that she only visited twice, near the end of the training day.


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## Melody Greba

Daryl Ehret said:


> _"hence the braggards about "doing schutzhund" when they only went a saw it, once."_
> 
> That reminds me of a conversation I had with someone who once told me that they trained in schutzhund. The person went on to state that they trained at the club I was a member of. "Oh really, how come I've never seen you there?" The reply was "Oh, it was a long time ago, maybe about a year or two." Since I'd been in the club for nearly three years at the time, I knew better, and the truth was that she only visited twice, near the end of the training day.


LOL! Same thing happened to me about 20 yrs ago when I called about a litter. I asked about the pedigree and the "seller" was of course wanting to know, why. I told him that I was looking for a new sch prospect. (3 generations back there was A titled dog)

Conversation on his end continued as he told me that he trained with one of the best trainers in the country, at his schutzhund club. I asked who and where, naturally!

THAT WAS MY CLUB! and I'd never seen him there. I went every training, twice a week. And this is what I told him. Of course, the story changed to...he'd been there once but with his job and such, he just couldn't make it.


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## Nancy Jocoy

Melodie - I would like to know what teams are working offlead airscent schutzhund trained dogs as on lead dogs or cadaver dogs don't present as big a potential concern in my mind.

Of course any dog that shows signs of fear or agression in unusual situations [or normal ones for that matter] is "wash" material; that should go without saying.

I am not sure it will change any opinions because those sport folks I *have* met are more about doing something with their dog than about finding missing people.....

To me the ones that really, truly, amaze me or NOT the dog trainers as there is not much training [the training comes in setting up scenario after scenario for the dog and handler to know how to work out] to this. It is the horsemen who are so keyed into animal behavior they can naturally read what is going on and the hunters who can watch a dog, look for sign, and know where they are...............Really teaching a trained alert or directionals are not all that hard.......with a little experience.


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## Konnie Hein

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Melodie - I would like to know what teams are working offlead airscent schutzhund trained dogs as on lead dogs or cadaver dogs don't present as big a potential concern in my mind.


I'm not going to specifically mention names, but I know of at least two teams in the Mid-Atlantic area working off-lead, airscent, Schutzhund trained dogs and I'm pretty sure Melody personally knows some in her area as well.


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## Konnie Hein

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Really teaching a trained alert or directionals are not all that hard.......with a little experience.


I don't think it's all that hard either, but you and I both know there are folks out there who struggle with it!


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## Melody Greba

Konnie Hein said:


> I'm not going to specifically mention names, but I know of at least two teams in the Mid-Atlantic area working off-lead, airscent, Schutzhund trained dogs and I'm pretty sure Melody personally knows some in her area as well.


I do know some wilderness SAR K9s that are sch titled, mostly in Indiana but also CA. The ones that I know in KY. just don't tell. And they do it in private and aren't really involved in schutzhund. More of a curiosity, I think.

The point still remains that if a K9 is rewarded with an object for motivation (any object; ball on a rope, rag, tug or sleeve to tug and win), it is doing "bite training". None are any different than the other and the action is the same.


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## Konnie Hein

Melody Greba said:


> I do know some wilderness SAR K9s that are sch titled, mostly in Indiana but also CA. The ones that I know in KY. just don't tell. And they do it in private and aren't really involved in schutzhund. More of a curiosity, I think.


I always think of "your area" as being Indianapolis, since I know of you through FEMA. I keep forgetting how far some of you guys drive to training!


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## Melody Greba

Konnie Hein said:


> I always think of "your area" as being Indianapolis, since I know of you through FEMA. I keep forgetting how far some of you guys drive to training!


Yea... Jackie and I yack most of the way to and from training. She's headed to VA to test next month. Wish her luck! 

What ringsport training club are you training at? Maybe I can fly out and come??? :razz:


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## Konnie Hein

I'll be at the same test (for a recert with Hero), so I will see her there!

I train with Renaissance Ring club in Andover, CT and you should _absolutely_ come visit us!


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## Guest

There are SCH titled dogs working off-lead wilderness air scent in NYS. The one I am thinking of in particular ranges very far and is very fast and has never had a problem differentiating between SAR and other work. I have hidden for this dog in trainings and he is stable as granite.


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## Michele Fleury

We have one member that has worked SCH titled GSD's in off lead wilderness SAR for as long as I can remember, and I've been a SAR dog handler for 18 years with this team. We have never had an issue with people aggression. I would agree with those who say that the issue is time to train in multiple disciplines to a proficient level, the skill level of the handler and having the right dog.

I too love the person interested in SAR who has a dog the "needs a job and can find my child anywhere in the house" but has never been off-lead or out of the penned yard and doesn't particularly like strangers!!! And when I tell them this is like having a second job that costs money and requires a serious long term committment, they say "I was just looking for something fun to do with my dog" ](*,)


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## Carol Boche

Michele Fleury said:


> I too love the person interested in SAR who has a dog the "needs a job and can find my child anywhere in the house" but has never been off-lead or out of the penned yard and doesn't particularly like strangers!!! And when I tell them this is like having a second job that costs money and requires a serious long term committment, they say "I was just looking for something fun to do with my dog" ](*,)


GREAT people aren't they???? We usually end up with them for a while since my team likes to be "open to the general public" and then thinks I am a bitch at training. I have two people right now that I would work with forever....the rest.....well......let's just say they are the rest. ](*,)


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## Nancy Jocoy

Carol, it really helped us with that by requiring people attend for 3 months before bringing a dog. That counts anyone, though we do have some leniency [for example LE or a proficient person from another team may have different consideration]

We want them to have a clear idea of what is involved and a picture that the expectatation is that if they join the team and the dog does not cut it that they need to either serve in some other way or get another dog....

Even that may not go far enough and we have upped the attendance requirements and are starting to put time limits on achieving certain training goals.


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## Alex Whitelock

Being a person who is on a SAR team and does schutzhund I thought I'd kick in my 2 cents worth. My views on this have changed over the last year. My remarks don't touch on bitework which is what so many people get fixated on. I'll let that discussion be.
I have a dog which I have titled SchH2 and works as air scent dog and HRD dog.
What I began to see in him as well in other dogs who cross trained was a spillover that was conflicting. I think this is a larger issue than the bitework.
Air scent work, and trailing work will screw up your schutzhund tracking for sure - my male I retired from sch for that reason - tracking went to h***. We had been strongly encouraged to add trailing to our repetoire and not being willing to leave him be a super air scent dog/HRD dog I had to try to train him as a trailing dog too. 
He learned a lot and no harm done but this was for him...clearly too many things to juggle.
He's a powerful dog in protection but a total sleeve dog - drop sleeve and run and he's beaming from ear to ear carrying the sleeve. While flying him, I have left him with mothers trying to deal with kids having meltdowns while I went to the bathroom with not one concern whatsoever. He's like a huge teddybear. If someone came after me I think he'd deal with it but it would take something very clear to trigger him. Put on a sleev and crack a whip and woowee we're ON! 
If you do disaster work or HRD/cadaster work I can see there not being any problem provided the dog is clear headed..
I also saw some spillover at a Randy Hare seminar where the schutzhund dogs went into bark & hold mode at his boxes..."how do I get this man to give me the game???" My male started to do a B&H on the subjects too waning his tug but we cleaned this up. Scarry for an ordinary civilian subject.

And then there's obedience. Schutzhund folks train using some compulsion - you cannot avoid it in the proofing stage. You just cannot get points work using all treats. Sooo, for some dogs they become handler sensitive - not sure if they should work independently or stick nearby. My male is solid in air scent & HRD - ranges super and adores the freedom but when he was on a tracking line he was just too aware of anything coming down the line from me. He's a little soft. A handler hard, extreme drive dog might show less of a conflict.

Sorry for the rambling but I now have come 180 degrees to believing that keeping things clear and simple for the DOGS is easier for THEM. Some dogs can juggle various skills, some cannot but it does add confusion. Now I have a trailing/HRD dog; an air scent/hrd dog and a schutzhund dog. Working waaay better.
You can also get your BH then pursue the RH titles which are great fun - I did the RH1 - might go for RH2. 

good topic!

Alex Whitelock
VSARK9
Outkast Schutzhund Club


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## Carol Boche

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Carol, it really helped us with that by requiring people attend for 3 months before bringing a dog. That counts anyone, though we do have some leniency [for example LE or a proficient person from another team may have different consideration]
> 
> We want them to have a clear idea of what is involved and a picture that the expectatation is that if they join the team and the dog does not cut it that they need to either serve in some other way or get another dog....
> 
> Even that may not go far enough and we have upped the attendance requirements and are starting to put time limits on achieving certain training goals.



I would LOVE to do this, but I get...."well if they want to be a dog handler why can't they bring a dog?" 

Yes, I am really frustrated, which, is why I am truly and seriously training and certifying my own dogs for my area (as well as responding when called to other areas) and handing the team over to the froo froos.....they can see ALL of the work it takes and it won't fly very high or for very long. 

Mention a seminar and everyone scatters until the seminar is ready.....and then they bitch because the instructor was not what they wanted.....UGH...


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## Melody Greba

Alex Whitelock said:


> Air scent work, and trailing work will screw up your schutzhund tracking for sure - my male I retired from sch for that reason - tracking went to h***. him. Put on a sleev and crack a whip and woowee we're ON!
> 
> My male started to do a B&H on the subjects too waning his tug but we cleaned this up. Scarry for an ordinary civilian subject.
> 
> Alex Whitelock
> VSARK9
> Outkast Schutzhund Club


Alex:

I agree, wilderness air scent does screw up competition tracking. So quite honestly my sch dog does not do SAR, either. Actually, he's gotten the back burner so long to my mal in USAR, that it's taking me longer than any other dog that I've titled, to finish.

For me it was case of natural selection (so to speak) to do sch with my gsd and disaster K9 with my mal, since my mal doesn't think tedious tracking is worth his effort when he can air-scent and get there, 10 x as fast.

My mal has the same sch foundation as my gsd, which set the USAR foundation work, perfectly. And my mal still does the obedience and bitework, sometimes at sch training. Keeps clarity in the work, that supports his USAR work. However, I don't usually field him in wilderness SAR, and not because he isn't highly proficient and certainly not because he's dangerous in any way, but because the bark alert isn't the best alert in wilderness for many reasons. Of course, this is just my opinion.

My prior wilderness dog did an very clear find/refind alert and whether a dog does that or a variation of the bringsel alert, I feel these are much better alerts in wilderness SAR. 

Glad you chimed in and added your experience and other layers to add to the discussion.


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