# Birth order



## leslie cassian

Does the birth order of puppies in a litter have any relation to what they become as they grow up? Does size of litter make any difference?


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## Alyssa Myracle

Not if you don't tell 'em what order they were born in.


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## Gillian Schuler

:lol: :lol: :lol: 

Seriously, the one who reaches the teat the quickest may be a "winner". I got my girlfriend to check this out with my last dog - wasn't disappointed.


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## Alyssa Myracle

I'm by no means an expert (as in never bred a dog), but I would wager that the size of a litter might have some impact on the development of all the pups.

You've got to figure, a whelping bitch only has so many nutrients to pass along to the pups. The larger the divisor, the less each pup gets, right? I'm sure somewhere that may have *some* impact, but that's all theoretical, and talking out my ass.

Then again, abnormally small litters are also a sign that something isn't right, so...

I'll shut up and let someone who knows what they're talking about, post.


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## Gillian Schuler

Alyssa Myracle said:


> I'm by no means an expert (as in never bred a dog), but I would wager that the size of a litter might have some impact on the development of all the pups.
> 
> You've got to figure, a whelping bitch only has so many nutrients to pass along to the pups. The larger the divisor, the less each pup gets, right? I'm sure somewhere that may have *some* impact, but that's all theoretical, and talking out my ass.
> 
> Then again, abnormally small litters are also a sign that something isn't right, so...
> 
> I'll shut up and let someone who knows what they're talking about, post.


I'm not a breeder either, but I'd say the size of the litter has nothing to do with the speed at which the pup finds the teat.

Willing to be contradicted.


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## Alyssa Myracle

True- equal division of nutrients implies an equal fight to obtain those nutrients.

So in that sense, litter size may be of neutral impact after you include drive and dominance in the pups as a factor.


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## Kristen Cabe

Wouldn't the first pup born by default be the first one to a teat?


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## Jerry Lyda

I'm just talking out my butt too but a one pup litter would miss out on behavior that a multiple litter could offer.


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## Gillian Schuler

Jerry Lyda said:


> I'm just talking out my butt too but a one pup litter would miss out on behavior that a multiple litter could offer.


I knew of a breeder who culled such pups on principle, regardless of $$$


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## Gillian Schuler

Kristen Cabe said:


> Wouldn't the first pup born by default be the first one to a teat?


Sure, even if it took 30 minutes getting there


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## Gillian Schuler

And number 2 was born 40 minutes later........


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## leslie cassian

I was thinking of size of litter and birth order together. Would it matter more if it was a smaller litter than if it was a large litter? 

Is this something breeders keep track of? I think it would be hard with a very similar litter to keep track of which pup came out when, unless you mark them somehow.


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## Alyssa Myracle

Most breeders do keep track of birth order, to an extent.
I know mine does.

Danke was pup #7.


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## Anne Vaini

Kristen Cabe said:


> Wouldn't the first pup born by default be the first one to a teat?


no.


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## Daryl Ehret

leslie cassian said:


> Does the birth order of puppies in a litter have any relation to what they become as they grow up? Does size of litter make any difference?


_Everything's an influence_, but nothing is "the rule". Very astute, Jerry's mention of other littermates, but also to add, _some nipples are better than others._ ;-)


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## Daryl Ehret

There's also a tendency, for first pups out to be larger, and last pups out to be smaller from the get go.


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## Connie Sutherland

Daryl Ehret said:


> There's also a tendency, for first pups out to be larger, and last pups out to be smaller from the get go.


Is it a strong tendency? Any ideas why? 

More mass for gravity to work on? More strength to head for the exit?


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## ann schnerre

and, not to offend anyone, but hasn't anyone here ever heard the saying "sucking hind teat"??? (not a good thing for those of you who haven't heard of it).

could make an interesting research project though--maybe i'll take the GRE again and get my PhD on it....wonder if stimulus grants are being awarded for research projects on canine repro?


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## Edward Egan

ann freier said:


> could make an interesting research project though--maybe i'll take the GRE again and get my PhD on it....wonder if stimulus grants are being awarded for research projects on canine repro?


I hear it on the list, right after they figure out "The sudden Pig Swine stink problem" ](*,)


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## Daryl Ehret

That's what I meant when fecitiously stating "some nipples are better "


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## mike suttle

leslie cassian said:


> Does the birth order of puppies in a litter have any relation to what they become as they grow up? Does size of litter make any difference?


We have about 8 litters a year here at our kennel, the smallest litter we ever had was 4 , the largest was 14, our litters usually average around 8-10 puppies. I keep track of the birth order of every puppy in every litter by marking them with colored ribbons around their necks. I have never seen any connection between the birth order or even the size of the litter having any influence on the dog as an adult. I think a one puppy litter would perhaps be a little different, but I can not prove that. There is a guy on this board who recently had a one puppy litter so maybe he could share his experience with this issue.
I will PM him and get him to chime in here.


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## Howard Gaines III

leslie cassian said:


> Does the birth order of puppies in a litter have any relation to what they become as they grow up? Does size of litter make any difference?


Having bred Bouvier des Flandres and Border Collie puppies, I keep tabs on them from day one. Never seen the first one born, first one to the "table", or how size has made much difference. 

I do think that a well bred litter and puppies which are kept healthy are better factors. What they will be or do when they grow up is impossible to tell. Look at any kid in day care; whose going to be the lawyer, teacher, or mini -mart manager? Can't tell...same for dogs. As they continue to grow, the smaller puppies do catch up in size, less aggressive puppies assume the sub role in the K-9 pack.

I think it goes to genetics and environmental conditions. Bigger puppies don't mean better adults. Smaller puppies don't mean weak and untrainable adults.


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## Guest

As Mike mentioned above, I recently had a young female malinois who actually had to have a C-Section at 69 days. Once she past the 65 days we kept monitoring her and at day 69, the pup was far to large to have naturally, thus Emergency C-Section was performed. She only had one puppy and this was very new to me. I have bred, raised and raced Alaskan Huskies for years and bred many litters, but this was a first. Immediately I started calling and researching on single litter pups and most sites said 50/50 chance of survival, the quality of the animal may be vary based on stimuli, etc.....that being said, I did everthing possible to stimulate the pup starting on day one. Dog was introduced to the Bio Sensor Process as well as other handling and stimuli from the onset. His eyes were open on day 3 and ears in a week. (He was overcooked inside her I guess!) The mom would didn't act like a mom so I had to make her feed him. He was in a whelping box with numerous stuffed animals, and objects of different size and material so he can get stimulated from to include a few alarm clocks for sound. I played music at various levels of pitch and volume immediately. I was scared to overdue it, but listenting to what I heard, it was a crap shoot anyway. During feeding, I would pull him off her and have him fight to get back to the teats, I would frustrate him early and make him hunt and find things as his litter mates would. I did a ton of stuff that would take to long discuss here, however most of what I did for imprinting him, once I knew he was going to make it was very similar to Mike Suttles Program at Logan Haus. Today he is 15-16 weeks old, tail always straight up in the air, confident, fears absolutely nothing, will bite anything at anytime. Hunt all day and night for a ball or toy, food drive through the roof, and to date the strongest, driviest pup I have ever had. Again, that being said, I think birth order had absolutley nothing to due with the pup as an adult. Litter size and the way the litter reacts to one another will possibly have an effect later on, but the actual birth number is irrelevent! The actual gentics, upbringing, stimuli, training, enviromentals are what matters and tell you how your dog will turn out, not if it was the first born or the runt of the litter. Pray this never happens to you, trust me I would loved to have a larger litter natuarlly, so much easier, a singleton is too much work! Hope this helps, and again only my opinion and experiences on the subject. More specifics, PM me.....Thanks
Jody


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## Chris Wild

I do not believe birth order has any affect on anything and size of the litter only comes into play in the case of very small litters. Singletons or pups from small (2-3) pup litters can be more touch sensitive because they didn't experience as much constant tactile sensations from birth on, and can also be a bit more retarded in their canine social skills due to not having a sufficiently sized "puppy pack" to develop in during key learning stages.


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## Guest

Chris, I agree with you if the time wasn't taken to give the pup what they needed to eliviate that. On another note, you have to look at if this Singleton pup going to be a pet or working dog? As a working dog, the pup is showing all the necessary drives, social skills etc. It never had its litter mates to beat him down or show him whose boss, so idealy he thinks he is unstoppable! It definately shows in his work and the touch thing is a non issue if you applied the Bio Sensor or similar process and have done the necessary work as you should in any litter. As a pet, yes, I think there could be social issues and other miniscual issues that would of been corrected in a larger litter.


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## Mike Schoonbrood

> Look at any kid in day care; whose going to be the lawyer, teacher, or mini -mart manager? Can't tell..


Oh you can tell.... the kid stealing the other kids lunch is gonna be a bank robber, the bossy girl is gonna be the office manager, the shy timid girl drawing on her hands is gonna be an artist, the kid trading his banana for fruit rollups is gonna be the used car dealer, the kid defending that kids trade when the banana-receiver realizes he just gave up his fruit rollups for a banana is gonna be a lawyer, the kid that the banana-receiver is gonna get to beat up the original banana owner is gonna be a security guard after he gets fired as a cop for corruption and favoritism. The kid that has an opinion on every situation in class is gonna be a judge (American Idol, Traffic Court... who knows! Does he like music? or does he enjoy other peoples misery?  ) And of course the kid that always knows better is gonna be a teacher.

It's all very easy to tell


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## ann schnerre

OMG mike!!!! ROFLMAO!!! (have any research to back that up with--that's replicable???) aNOTHer Phd thesis--where were you guys 20 yrs ago??????


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## Gillian Schuler

Behind bars???


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## Bernt Lundby

Really good observations Mike 

There is actually research indicating 2/3 sociopaths can be detected as early as in kindergarden. They boys pulling the girls hair and do not stop while they cry etc.


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## jim kirkendall

I think littermates can be conceived a week or so apart.so some pups cay have a head start when they come out.also I think the mommas allways have favorites when it comes to nursing.I like the biggest strongest pup.


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## Gillian Schuler

_I think littermates can be conceived a week or so apart....:?: _


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## Don Turnipseed

Here is a litter that was born the night before last. They were expected next Thursday, but, I guess they may have been experimenting when I wasn't looking. I was having a drink and relaxing on the deck Thursday evening when I noticed the male walking everywere with the bitch. He was constantly cleaning her face and was walking like he was attached to her at the side. I decided he knew something I didn't and got her whelping box ready down by the creek and she dropped the first in about an hour. God, it is hilarious watching the males race around barking when there is a pup being born. They run up to the gate and bark at the house telling me to come and look then they run to the whelping box and stick their heads in to check out the pups. Anyway, can't say as I could tell you which is born first or last. I don't figure it matters. Don't see any point in muddying the waters with things when what counts is being able to actually tell which are the good ones. When people can do that consistently, then worry about the chicken and the egg and who came first. This is another 10th generation litter and I won't be able to tell one from another anyway. They are all uniform in size, looks, the whole smear. I will cut tails in a couple of days and then leave them alone with mom and dad untill they are on their feet and coming out of the box. That is when I evaluate them to see what I have as far as confidence, and dependence or the reverse. I always figured the first born would get to the bar first myself


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## Chris Wild

jim kirkendall said:


> I think littermates can be conceived a week or so apart.


No. While the bitch's ovaries will release eggs over a period of a few days, all of the eggs mature at roughly the same time, and are then fertilized by whatever sperm is floating around then. So while there may be a difference in age of a few hours between the conceptions of littermates, definitely not days or a week.


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## Chris Michalek

I always heard that in general the runts tend to be more edgy. I don't have a clue, I'm just sharing what I heard from a couple of breeders.


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## jim kirkendall

Maybe u are correct but this is what a degreed vet tech told me.she is a breeder also. I think I will ask my vet.


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## Chris Wild

jim kirkendall said:


> Maybe u are correct but this is what a degreed vet tech told me.she is a breeder also. I think I will ask my vet.


As far as I'm concerned this is an old wive's tale.

According to the canine reproductive specialist veterinarian I have worked with for years, it is untrue.


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## Kristen Cabe

And how did they come to that conclusion, Chris? It's entirely possible for pups to be conceived days apart. How else could pups be sired by different fathers? :wink:


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## Chris Michalek

Kristen Cabe said:


> And how did they come to that conclusion, Chris? It's entirely possible for pups to be conceived days apart. How else could pups be sired by different fathers? :wink:


I don't know Kristen, I'm just relaying what I have heard from two independent sources.


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## Chris Wild

Kristen Cabe said:


> And how did they come to that conclusion, Chris? It's entirely possible for pups to be conceived days apart. How else could pups be sired by different fathers? :wink:


I have no idea how they came to that conclusion, but I trust repro specialists when they say so since this is their area of speciality and therefore I assume they know more about the scientific mechanics of canine reproduction than the general population, most breeders and most regular vets.

As for being sired by 2 different fathers, that's simple. When the eggs mature and are ready to be fertilized, they can be fertilized by any sperm that happens to be swimming around at the time. Fresh sperm lives for several days inside the bitch. Actual fertilization typically does not occur right away at breeding. It takes approximately 7 hours after ejaculation for sperm to mature and be able to fertilize the egg, after maturation, sperm will live 5-7 days, swimming around looking for something to fertilize. So Dog 1 may have bred her Monday, Dog 2 may have bred her Wednesday. The sperm of both dogs is still swimming around on Friday when the eggs mature and are ready to be fertilized. Some get fertilized by Dog 1's swimmers, some by Dog 2's.


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## Chris Wild

Or for further info, look up Dr. Hutchinson's writings on the internet, as well as what is known about AIs in dogs.

From AIs we know that frozen sperm will only live 12-24 hours after thawing. That's an easy one to determine if you've got a microscope. They have also determined that after maturing and being ready to fertilize, an unfertilized egg will only live approximately 36 hours. If not fertilized within that time it will die. For a frozen AI to work, those two small windows of when the sperm is viable and when the egg is viable must coincide.

So if eggs can mature for fertilization on different days, several days and even up to a week apart as someone mentioned in this thread, how can a frozen AI possibly produce a good sized litter? It can't. Yet they often do. Why? Because the eggs all mature and are ready for fertilization at the same time. Get the semen in at the right time in relation to that, and you've got puppies.


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## Kristen Cabe

I said:


> It's entirely possible for pups to be conceived days apart.


Chris W. said:


> an unfertilized egg will only live approximately 36 hours.


I rest my case. Pups can be conceived days apart from one another.


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## Chris Wild

Well, if by "days" you mean *at most* a day and a half, then yes.  But people in the thread were talking about several days, even up to a week, and that is not possible.


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## Gillian Schuler

Considering the bitch is only in season for 3 weeks, I would say some breeders go for a mating and go 1-2 days' later as in doubly stitched.

As for 2 fathers in one litter - some breeds that have impossible colour combinations in one litter - this can "out" when the "impossible" happens. It wouldn't be the first time that the neighbour's dog has helped out in a unguarded moment


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