# Touch sensitivity



## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

I am interested in knowing from breeders if and how they perform touch sensitivity tests, and what if anything that tells them.

Do you find a good correlation between touch sensitivity results on a pup and their touch sensitivity as an adult?

How do you you feel touch sensitivity manifests later in life itself in the working dog?

Thanks


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## Adam Swilling (Feb 12, 2009)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> I am interested in knowing from breeders if and how they perform touch sensitivity tests, and what if anything that tells them.
> 
> Do you find a good correlation between touch sensitivity results on a pup and their touch sensitivity as an adult?
> 
> ...


I know a couple of breeders that do the temperment testing on their pups where this is used; you basically pinch the webbing between the pup's toes, start counting and see how long it takes the pup to react. I've heard different reasons for doing this, such as helping determine pain tolerance or how dominant the pup is when it's got someone pinching on it. The other type of touch sensitivity I've seen is in bio sensor conditioning. I guess the exercise with bio sensor that would be considered touch sensitivty would be where you tickle the pups' paws with a cotton swab for a few seconds. In my understnading that is to condition the pup to different sensations and more or less de-sensitize it to things like that. I'm sure there are people on here who have a greater understanding of this though.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I don't really test for touch sensitivity per se, I'm not sure what's to be gained by it, but I do test to see if a pup will struggle from restraint by at least 5 weeks age, and don't care to see a pup that will freeze up. I conduct other testing, but nothing directly "touch sensitivity" related, except for some proximal vibratory sound impact.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Touch sensitivity???? Tells you what??? It can feel when it is touched???


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

I also heard the one where people look at the reaction AFTER the touch sensitivity, i.e. whether the pup recovers easily, comes back to the human, acts submisive or aggressive, shys off, runs away, etc.

I don't think touch sensitivity is always related to pain thresholds, I have one dog who would have been very quick to pull away and/or bite, but has a rather high pain tolerance. Just doesn't like to be messed with and has a problem submiting to someone...


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## Amanda Caldron (Mar 2, 2009)

I believe it is more about understanding the difference in stimulations, it also shows pain tolerance but for me as another said is more about how they respond to things after the stimulation. I pull the hairs between the toes, the ear, light flicks just under the nose, pinch toes, and hold tail. Nothing that will hurt the dog but I want to see how the dog responds when irritated, a confident dog usually accepts it and then turns it into play. The insecure dog will usually react aggressively or avoid it in general. I don't like a dog that percieves every little thing as a threat, especially at that age I would rather the dog be confident and accepting to new things and even better turn it into his game. The pain threshold to me is also very important because I don't want a dog that is a whimp to correction because when the time comes for my dog to get correction I am not always the lightest. Not to mention from early ages I rough my dogs up starting as a gradual pat as early as 8 weeks and progresses gradually to the point where I punch and kick them around without them being even slightly worried. I want my dogs to kick more into drive and have even more fun when being hit. Probably didn't give you all the answers you wanted to hear but hope that helps.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Sounds like the last two posts are referring to older pups. Tiekerhook has a video demonstrating this. http://www.tiekerhook.com/images/videos/ultra.wmv Koos wants to see a full grip at 6 weeks age. Once that's observed, he applies pressure to the pup by a pinch to the cheek, to see if it stays in drive, and believes that a pup should experience both pleasant and unpleasant experiences at a very early age.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Touch sensitivity???? Tells you what??? It can feel when it is touched???


Don, as has been suggested by other responses, I am wondering if people test the pain thresholds of their pups...why they feel it is important if they do....and how this may or may not correlate to pain thresholds when they are older.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

How do you think this is gonna have anything to do with what you are working ??

A large amount of puppy tests are completely invalidated when the litter is looked at again as older pups and dogs.

I think this has a lot more to do with the tester than the test itself. 

For example, I hold down the male pup that I have, and he squirms. I let him go, and he just waits for me to hold him down again, OR he gets up and starts grabbing my shirt, OR he is licking my face, OR he scampers about, and then runs back and rolls on his back and wiggles around wanting me to do it again.

WTF is THAT supposed to tell me ?? LOL

I am curious as to what it is you are looking for.


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

Jennifer, I am no breeder but we did stay at a Holiday Inn once.....

We had one litter of pups and touched the pups frequently. One did not like to be petted. He would cringe upon touching. I felt that we could not sell this pup (something was not right- we was the last of the litter and was purple for several minutes we thought he had died). At any rate my daughter and husband kept him and we still have him today. He is a pet with a SchH BH. He loves to be touched/tickled and massaged now. He is the biggest suck up/lover. I think maybe be as a pup his sensitivity was too much for him. However as an adult he had a very high pain tollerance. I could not give him a simple pinch collar correction he just stand there no reaction. As for the pinch test as a pup he responded to the pain after several seconds (similar to other bull pups).


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> How do you think this is gonna have anything to do with what you are working ??
> 
> A large amount of puppy tests are completely invalidated when the litter is looked at again as older pups and dogs.
> 
> ...


Jeff,

I know that some breeders do a pinch test on the foot to see what the pup's pain thresholds are like. I wondered why they do it and what correlation they see, if any, when the dog is older.

For example do people think that the pup in the litter that can be pinched the hardest without a reaction will grow up to be a dog that will grow up to be "harder" than one that yelped as soon as you applied a little pressure?

Basically I want to know if breeders that have raised many litters and have done this kind of test, think that this test has any validity.

I have only had one working dog. He was tested by the breeder (foot pinch) and was rated on the touch sensitive side. I brought him to a vet after purchase, and she said the same thing.

Now, what does that have to do with anything I do? I am not concerned as some are with how "hard" the dog is because I want to be able to correct the sh** out of it and don't want it to shut down. Instead I think about how the crap we do is hard on dog's feet (as one example only). So how long do I have in uncomfortable conditions until the dog turns into a muffin and starts showing his discomfort...then how long until he shuts down?

I am interested in discomfort tollerance "in drive" but also "out of drive". How much discomfort can the dog work through, and can you tell that from a puppy even a little bit?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

How long do you have now ?? This is what I would ask myself. Someone pinching me and causing me discomfort doesn't seem to me to be the same as a dog that goes mushy because it is freezing.

I know dogs that don't give two shits about the cold, and actually go MORE into drive in the cold. I also know dogs that don't care for the cold. All my dogs get pretty stupid in the cold, but I would not know how I would test a pup to see what it would do in your situation.

You are out there on the extreme side.

I would take what you know about your current dog, what you can find out from the other dogs, and then go about finding a dog that has what you need to do the work, and go from there.

I remember the thread where you posted a pic of the dog house that you use. That was not so well done, hopefully you have had a chance to make that thing a bit better. However, how the different dogs in your group deal with that would be a good place to start. That is a good test in it's own right.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Michele, I have never tested for any such stuff. Airedales, at least my dogs, have an extremelyn highpaon threshhold. That is why they can do hogs and stick until the job is done. A little pinch tells me nothing when they are mutilating each other by 6 weeks.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> ... A little pinch tells me nothing when they are mutilating each other by 6 weeks.


:lol: :lol: :lol:


Oh, man .. I needed a big laugh, too. Thank you, Don.



And back to the topic .......


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> How long do you have now ?? This is what I would ask myself. Someone pinching me and causing me discomfort doesn't seem to me to be the same as a dog that goes mushy because it is freezing.
> 
> *No, but it does correlate perhaps to a dog having ice balls stuck between their pads pressing on the webbing from underneath. Or the abraision of certain types of snow. *
> 
> ...


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Michele, I have never tested for any such stuff. Airedales, at least my dogs, have an extremelyn highpaon threshhold. That is why they can do hogs and stick until the job is done. A little pinch tells me nothing when they are mutilating each other by 6 weeks.


So is there a way that you can tell by observing your pups wich dogs will be "hardest"? 

Obviously they will be killers "in drive" while on a hog, but when they are not hunting, do you find some "suckier" than others about injuries or things like that?


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## Adam Swilling (Feb 12, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> i A little pinch tells me nothing when they are mutilating each other by 6 weeks.


I see what you're saying here, Don. One of mine would have squirmed and whined like an idiot if this had been done to him at 6 weeks. But now that he's older that kind of stuff just pisses him off. I personally have not seen any correlation to how this determines anything when they are older, but I'm not an expert on this by any means.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

What about oiling his feet before he goes out ??


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

My first thought would be booties but then I wondered if they would change the extra "floatation a spanned out paw might offer a snow dog. I know sled dogs often wear them but understandably the conditions are different therefore the application would be as well, I assume.


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## Adam Swilling (Feb 12, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> What about oiling his feet before he goes out ??


LOL! That's a thought.:razz:


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

I have tried every oil, paw wax and potion on the market. Maybe they work for fifi walking on snowy sidewalk, but they do not work for any length of time in the conditions that cause me issues. It is only certain types of snow conditions that are really bad.

I do use sled dog booties as a preventative measure when I am recreating with the dog (backcountry skiing and so on). I will bootie him for running down the mountian at the end of the day when conditions require such a thing.

I don't use booties while working/searching. Even the sled dog booties take away some dexterity, and because his alert is digging to source, I don't really want him bootied for that. 

I have a decent system dialed now between trimming and the odd booty-ing.


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