# Breeding Duh



## Edward Weiss (Sep 19, 2011)

I am considering breeding my Airedale Bitch to another German dog.
I questioned the German breeder regarding the proposed breeding and among other information she included below: 
I read German but inbreeding coeffecients baffle me . This proposed paring is the least close of several males males I was considering ...

Clearly I know whose Uncle or Grandfather appears on both pedigrees but what is the significance of the numbers?


Hund X : Inzuchtkoeffizient : 4,88000% Homogenitätskoeffizient : 2,14500%


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## Annamarie Somich (Jan 7, 2009)

Dog X: inbreeding coefficient: 4.88000% uniformity coefficient: 2.14500%


The real nitpicky folks would want to know how many generations on each side were included for this calculation. Not a tight linebreeding - less than kissing cousins.


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## Edward Weiss (Sep 19, 2011)

Four generations...this is the second alternative

Hund X : Inzuchtkoeffizient : 8,59000% Homogenitätskoeffizient : 2,34500%


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## Annamarie Somich (Jan 7, 2009)

This is the typical COI if there is only one common ancestor or pair of ancestors in the pedigree: 

25.00% - parent/offspring or full brother/sister cross 
12.50% - half brother/sister, grandparent/grandpup, or double first cousins crosses 
9.75% - great uncle or aunt/great niece or nephew cross 
6.25% - first cousins 
But if the common ancestor appears more than once, then the COI is going to be higher. For example, COI can easily get to 30-40% when you breed parent to offspring who are both linebred multiple times on the same dog.

From my research/reading, when I do COI calculations on breeding my females to available studs in the US, I find out that the offspring are not nearly as linebred as it looks eyeballing the pedigree. I have to go to Europe, such a Perle de Tourbiere or van Leeuwen, to find kennels who are actually linebreeding and publishing their pedigrees. And wow, the COI ends up higher than just glancing at the pedigrees, especially PDT.

So the COI is just another piece of information in your breeding plans. I think it goes back to the discussion you started last year about how tight is too tight. 

I find this uniformity coefficient interesting. I could only find geological or construction definitions for this term. I'm assuming it is the percent uniformity to expect from the litter. I think it's interesting that the COI for the breeding with the second stud is almost double the first, but the uniformity coefficient does not increase that much. I would like to get more information on this uniformity value. 

I think this is a Daryl Ehret topic.


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## Edward Weiss (Sep 19, 2011)

Thank you for the erudite discussion of COI. I am particularly interested as studs mother is the maternal grandmother of my dog.
This grandmother is a very dominant and masculine appearing and described as "watchful" in a breed survey. As I like all rounders in Airedales worry a bit about over the top dogs.
Also in the background of both potential breeding dogs are a pair of brothers one The top VPG Airedale in Germany and the other finished in top ten in FCI (Torino) championship which included over 100 Mals and GSDs. Eyk v Erikson is the Airedale #7 http://www.sasit.com/fci2007.htm

Fun to contemplate


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Ed,

I don't think COI calculations are that dispositive without factoring in producing abilities and traits in the first couple of generations in the pedigree. Those that have bred the lines/dogs should be able to comment on what type of dogs and the depth.

T


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

I dont do COI calculations, but as mentioned before if i did most of ou breedings are around 20% i guess (pdt has more gens, therefor higher COI). 
Just makes sure breeding stock is extremly healthy and keep in mind that you'll double up the good and bad traits of your breeding stock


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## Edward Weiss (Sep 19, 2011)

Thanks to you and T...I have only bred a few litters and in this case I am responding to people who have asked for pups out of my girl Kasbah. In general will leave it to those that have the passion and eventual experience.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

jsut for shits and giggles, any free software avaialble anywhere to calculate the inbreeding coefficients?

I tried 2 so far, but they dont work..lol


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## Ang Cangiano (Mar 2, 2007)

http://www.tenset.co.uk/fspeed/

Works for me.

Ang


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Ang Cangiano said:


> http://www.tenset.co.uk/fspeed/
> 
> Works for me.
> 
> Ang


thanks.
tried that one, it fails to open a document when I try to open it.


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## Annamarie Somich (Jan 7, 2009)

Ed, I would just breed to both studs, probably to the oldest one first. Just make sure you don't start too late before your girl gets too old.

It is really hard to find good bitches and it is really hard to find good bitches with good owners who actually want to breed and have the patience to raise pups. You have a good market for your pups already, just go for it!

You just need to move your thoughts and conversation to shipping frozen-lots of progesterone testing-surgical ai-hassle-cost-chance it won't take versus taking a trip to Europe-meeting new friends-drinking a beer and taking pictures over the tie. Just go for it. There aren't enough good dogs and good people to waste your girl and not breed her. 

Of course, this is just my opinion.


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## Ang Cangiano (Mar 2, 2007)

Joby Becker said:


> thanks.
> tried that one, it fails to open a document when I try to open it.


Did you make sure you're saving the it as a *.csv file? I've been using it for a few years and never had a problem.

Ang


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Edward Weiss said:


> Thank you for the erudite discussion of COI. I am particularly interested as studs mother is the maternal grandmother of my dog.
> This grandmother is a very dominant and masculine appearing and described as "watchful" in a breed survey. As I like all rounders in Airedales worry a bit about over the top dogs.
> Also in the background of both potential breeding dogs are a pair of brothers one The top VPG Airedale in Germany and the other finished in top ten in FCI (Torino) championship which included over 100 Mals and GSDs. Eyk v Erikson is the Airedale #7 http://www.sasit.com/fci2007.htm
> 
> Fun to contemplate


 
Ed, 

I think you might get potentially 1-2 of the over the top when you have that in the pedigree but generally, the temperaments vary. I tend to think you need a lot of over-the-top in the pedigree to produce that in numbers unless someone in the pedigree is proven to be prepotent in that regard. If you're not interested, do you have someone else that is because in a working pedigree, the potential is there. The breeder on my puppy just shook her head when she watched Rhemy last year, saying: "you're the only one that wants to and can deal with that." Love him!!!

T


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