# Retrieve at 6 months



## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

I stop training retrieve when he started teething, and now we are back at it. Turning his retrieve into a reward itself by alternating the food reward and the retrieved item.
https://vimeo.com/247532555


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

I was hearing how much you use the clicker. I was working my pup on directionals, jumping up on the platform, and sitting on the platform. I was clicking much like you and the gal told me that I was "devaluing the clicker". I was using it to capture behavior (anything positive) as this has been Hoss' Waterloo and reward when I was getting anything in a forward direction. She told me to I was being to positive for 'the little things'. Your thoughts on the subject?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Not answering for Khoi because he has shown to be a master at clicker work with his dogs.

Sarah said 

" I was working my pup on directionals, jumping up on the platform, and sitting on the platform."

Possibly working to many behaviors at the same time?


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

I don't know how she meant it. I had tried before with another action and the feedback I got was a bit of this-is-her-way and I'm not really sure she uses/likes/approves of a clicker.


(Wow! I can make new paragraphs!!!)


Anyway, eventually, the idea is the dog travels to a platform, jumps up, sits on the platform. I was having Hoss get to one, and instead of jumping up, would start sniffing the carpet top for all the other doggie foot smells. So to have him just jump up on the platform, well it was a happy moment. Then to have him sit, well, another happy moment. So he was getting clicked and rewarded for getting up on the platform, and if he sat before I got there, he got clicked again, and I rewarded when I got there. And if he was hard to get on the platform, when he got on one, I just clicked and treated for several pieces. No clicking if he was on the ground. But according to this person, I am devaluing the clicker. I would have like to question her a bit to understand her position but in the situation/venue its not something I would have been looked on favorably as doing. So I just filed it away to think on later.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Capturing a behavior is one method for working with markers but the dog should get one behavior solid before you go on to the next. 

If the dog is going to the platform and is sniffing when he gets there then he doesn't understand what you want. 

I have no issues at all with luring the dog into position but with luring, capturing a behavior or however you get the behavior I believe we have to initially work one behavior at a time until your sure it understands that behavior to the point that it is responding with a command at a high % before going on. 

For those that have trained successfully it's easier to teach a couple of different behaviors BUT the dog AND handler have to truly understand marker work. 

EVERY click should get a reward. 

To many in a row without a GOOD behavior will probably create an over use.

Click ONLY when the behavior is correct.

If the dog sits as soon as it jumps on the platform it shouldn't get a clic and reward simply because the dog is anticipating your command. 

Be random in asking the dog for a sit when it jumps on the platform. 

Click immediately when it jumps up and that will let the dog know THAT'S the behavior your looking for and not the combination of behaviors. Doing it every time it jumps up there will only create that anticipation to sit. 

If the dog is doing a duration exercise I use a bridge word (good) to Keep the dog in that position. 

FOR ME that click or "yes" marker tells the dog it has done what i ask and I won't try to get duration out of that behavior for now. 

Bottom line is get each behavior correct as individual behaviors then you can chain them together.

Hope I'm making sense.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

There is SO MUCH good stuff in Bob's post! Each paragraph is another extremely good point about marker training.

It would be hard (for me, at least) to add much to it. 

I too agree with working on one behavior at a time if either the dog or the human is relatively new to marker training. (And in fact, maybe always, depending on the dog.)

_QUOTE (Bob) ... "FOR ME that click or "yes" marker tells the dog it has done what i ask and I won't try to get duration out of that behavior for now. ... Bottom line is get each behavior correct as individual behaviors then you can chain them together." END_

Absolutely agree!


I was wondering ... any chance of posting a clip of a training session?


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I was wondering ... any chance of posting a clip of a training session?


I'm not sure. And I mean that literally. As this was going on last November through this summer. This was a Waterloo thing for him. I was not making headway. Great one time. The next time it's like he never had seen a platform in his life. Jump on what? Go where?


Spent months digging around on it, trying different approaches but then he injured his back leg and was basically tripod for about 3 months. He kept reinjuring it so I stopped everything for about a month and when I went back on it, it was like the head-banging moments of the previous months had disappeared. I'm not saying it's fixed but the last couple of sessions, he was perfect. Or perfect for his level. I will pull the video out and see what he gives me the next time we work it. But I'm beginning to think that by taking a break, it let his brain re-set/mature/grow up and it all makes sense to him now. One of those momentary regression things.


(Yea! I'm making paragraphs!!!)


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

The foundation of my pup is free shaping, I want him to be an active thinking dog so, and so the clicker marker to him means that I did it right and I will get my reward, so for me there is no such thing as over clicking, if he did what I want, he gets clicked lol. This video shows the from the start of my box training, the goal is for him to go into the box and turn around without me luring him or tell him or helping him, the goal is to teach him to use his brain, think for himself out how to get clicked, it took him 11 minutes to get it, I'm sure if I lured him and help him he would get it much faster, but that would me more of a reactive dog than an active thinking dog, if you watch the whole video, you will see that he is really trying to figure out what to do, if you don't have time, just watch the first 30 seconds or so and then fast forward to 11:16, in the beginning, you can see that he has no freaking idea of what to do, but at 11:16, he does exactly what I wanted him to do and yes I clicked a lot, at one point in the video I click like machine gun lol. BTW I do teach all 3 sit, down and stand at the same time in that box and he learned it pretty quick because he learned to use his brain to think. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndoeNp6wMJs


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Khoi, Where you were clicking as the dog was leaving the box, I'm suspecting that someone would say you are over-clicking and devaluing the clicker. What you were doing is something like I was doing. Clearly there are degrees of 'clicking' even among people who use it.


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Yeah I screw up once and click when he was leaving the box during that session, but that is a screw up once during that session, not a over clicking devaluing it.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Khoi Pham said:


> Yeah I screw up once and click when he was leaving the box during that session, but that is a screw up once during that session, not a over clicking devaluing it.


Yeah, I heard you mumble under your breath.... lol


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Khoi, excellent example of free shaping.

This is much liike the way we had free shaping explained to us and we actually practiced it without a dog.

Using one person on the clicker and one person as the "dog" can be a big help in understand what is expected of BOTB dog and trainer. 

Where I learned marker work pretty much taught more luring work and that's probably my reasons to use luring more then shaping. 

Your videos have given me more thoughts on the values of shaping. 

Thank you for that!


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## sefi sahar (Dec 15, 2011)

i cant watch the video.
dont know why... if you put it in youtube please share a link


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Khoi, excellent example of free shaping.
> 
> This is much liike the way we had free shaping explained to us and we actually practiced it without a dog.
> 
> ...


Thanks Bob


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

sefi sahar said:


> i cant watch the video.
> dont know why... if you put it in youtube please share a link


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndoeNp6wMJs


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## sefi sahar (Dec 15, 2011)

oh! its the same one as you posted from the vimeo site? on the top? ithougth its a difrrent video.
oh and very nice work of course


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

sefi sahar said:


> oh! its the same one as you posted from the vimeo site? on the top? ithougth its a difrrent video.
> oh and very nice work of course


No this one is on youtube, it is teaching him to go into the box.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I like your work Khoi.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Khoi Pham said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndoeNp6wMJs


That was a nice surprise. It changed my mood of being rather annoyed to amused and with a smile on my face. Awesome. 

So Khoi, I gotta ask... If the food is in the red solo cup, what's the fanny pack for? :grin:


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Nicole Stark said:


> That was a nice surprise. It changed my mood of being rather annoyed to amused and with a smile on my face. Awesome.
> 
> So Khoi, I gotta ask... If the food is in the red solo cup, what's the fanny pack for? :grin:


Lol thanks, I have food in my fanny pack, and keep my clicker in there also, I'm always training him, he is loose in the house and so every time he is up to no good, I call him and when he comes to me I always click and give him food, trying the brainwash his brain that every time he came to me when I call him, something good is coming for him, and it is working out great, now at 6 months I can recall him from even a bite on the decoy without having to even use any correction yet. I'm trying to do as much positive as I can within the first 8 months of imprinting.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

In looking at the video on Youtube I also see your method of training the out. 

So simple yet effective.

Our "out" was taught to the pups by locking up the toy and wait for the dog to out THEN mark and reward with a rebite.

Your method keeps the pup in drive so no frustration can build as can the" lock up". 

Love it!


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> In looking at the video on Youtube I also see your method of training the out.
> 
> So simple yet effective.
> 
> ...


Yes Bob I also do the out and mark and reward on the same sleeve also, after I do it this way for a long time to just imprinting the quick out first.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Makes sense!

Old dogs CAN learn new tricks! :lol:


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Khoi Pham said:


> Lol thanks, I have food in my fanny pack, and keep my clicker in there also, I'm always training him...


This is good, of course. I kinda knew that when I asked the question but I figured that there was no way you were not going to answer that question with anything other than with a well-developed response. I think you know what I mean :mrgreen:

So, good. You didn't disappoint. 

As far as the clicker discussions that followed I'm not touching that. I don't care so much about what people do as long as it makes sense and works to achieve goals that fit into their long game. Of course, some need to be more serious about how they go about doing that than others. I think that goes without saying.

If I were to be completely honest, I don't care much to talk about dogs/training here anymore. Not seriously anyway. What I had to say I left at the toughness thread. It's the people here that I like to visit with.

Thanks for keeping the forum fresh with videos (this appreciation goes out to all who continue to contribute with material/information). It's good to see it hasn't died off completely.


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Yeah I get a lot of crap for carrying the fanny pack around lol, and about clicker training, all I can say is there are many ways to train, use whatever works for you and your dog and have fun doing it.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Nicole Stark said:


> I like your work Khoi.


Ditto!


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

I love watching your vids dude, they are so peaceful, completely at odds to how I train which is commonly referred to as Chaos System (TM)

The box vid was awesome, I watched all 13 mins 37 seconds of it.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Matt Vandart said:


> I love watching your vids dude, they are so peaceful, *completely at odds to how I train which is commonly referred to as Chaos System (TM)*
> 
> The box vid was awesome, I watched all 13 mins 37 seconds of it.



:lol:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

I love watching your videos too, Khoi.


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Thanks guys.


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