# GSD to Mal; are we missing the middle ground?



## Kat LaPlante (May 17, 2009)

The more I see and take part in the more I question this, wondering if anyone else sees a gap also??

i have seen tons of great GSD's, most in videos and some in person; solid, strong, thoughtful, and willing.

I have seen alot of Mals, most in video but some great dogs in person; sensitive, easily turned "on", prey monsters, agile, and in love with what they do.

I have NEVER seen a Dutchie at work in real life, I wonder....can this dog be the perfect mix between the two? Are my beloved GSD's just missing a little agility and natural drive? Are the Mal's missing a wee bit of solidarity between nerves and strength?

Have I not seen a Dutchie because they are not trendy here yet? or are there other reasons behind this? 

i look forward to thoughts and insights.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Kat LaPlante said:


> Have I not seen a Dutchie because they are not trendy here yet? or are there other reasons behind this?
> 
> i look forward to thoughts and insights.


You live in Alberta, I have the only Dutchie here.


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

No one owns Dutchies. Few people are aware they exist, not KC registrable (thank god), no breed club for a gateway to qualify for nationals when you could just get a Mali, just a few reasons people don't own them.


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## Kat LaPlante (May 17, 2009)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> You live in Alberta, I have the only Dutchie here.


For real? The only one?


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Kat LaPlante said:


> For real? The only one?


Probably not.


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## Kat LaPlante (May 17, 2009)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Probably not.


 
Ha Ha Ha, I really will believe anything! I would have took you at your word, so much so that if I ever saw a guy with a DS, I likely would have run up as greeted you as Gerry. "So nice to meet you!!!" all excited and retarded.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Kat LaPlante said:


> Ha Ha Ha, I really will believe anything! I would have took you at your word, so much so that if I ever saw a guy with a DS, I likely would have run up as greeted you as Gerry. "So nice to meet you!!!" all excited and retarded.


 LOL, now that is funny!


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## Tamara McIntosh (Jul 14, 2009)

Kat LaPlante said:


> For real? The only one?


LOL, no Kat not the only one. lol

There is a lady just imported a dutchie from France in Calgary, and there is a security company up in Edmonton (that Derek works for) that has several. 

I think the fact that only the UKC registers them in NA is a big factor to why they aren't seen much. Due to the fact that they aren't registerable here you can't get to international competition, which would put off most serious trainers. And the fact that they are probably too much dog for most.

Tamara McIntosh


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## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

Kat LaPlante said:


> The more I see and take part in the more I question this, wondering if anyone else sees a gap also??
> 
> i have seen tons of great GSD's, most in videos and some in person; solid, strong, thoughtful, and willing.
> 
> ...


I'v worked a few, and I freaking love them.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Tamara McIntosh said:


> And the fact that they are probably too much dog for most.


I don't believe that.


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## Kat LaPlante (May 17, 2009)

Tammy! are you coming to calgary this week? anyway, since I posted the question I have learned some of the ins and out to the inabitlity to compete due to lack of registration.....so where does that leave someone who may want a dutchie and wants to compete with that dutchie?


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Kat LaPlante said:


> Ha Ha Ha, I really will believe anything! I would have took you at your word, so much so that if I ever saw a guy with a DS, I likely would have run up as greeted you as Gerry. "So nice to meet you!!!" all excited and retarded.


Gerry sometimes comes out of the closet dressed as a weirdo. I wouldn't believe anything he says. :---)


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Just lie like everyone else and register the dog as a brindle Mal.


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## Kat LaPlante (May 17, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Just lie like everyone else and register the dog as a brindle Mal.


 
I've got a hankerin' thats the million dollar answer!!


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Tamara McIntosh said:


> And the fact that they are probably too much dog for most.
> 
> Tamara McIntosh





Gerry Grimwood said:


> I don't believe that.


and prolly needs to get out more


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Kat LaPlante said:


> The more I see and take part in the more I question this, wondering if anyone else sees a gap also??
> 
> i have seen tons of great GSD's, most in videos and some in person; solid, strong, thoughtful, and willing.
> 
> ...


Go to ware the videos come from and start there to look for your next dog


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## Tamara McIntosh (Jul 14, 2009)

Kat LaPlante said:


> Tammy! are you coming to calgary this week? anyway, since I posted the question I have learned some of the ins and out to the inabitlity to compete due to lack of registration.....so where does that leave someone who may want a dutchie and wants to compete with that dutchie?


This week??? I will be in Glenwood NEXT week, but that is south of Calgary about 2 hrs. What's going on in Calgary?

In north america, you can still compete with a non registered dog. YOu can go to nationals and you could even win (potentially) however you just can not go to FCI world competition. Ringsport in the USA and Canada allows "blue dogs" which are unregistered dogs, and the dutchie would fall under that. I believe that sch also allows unregistered dogs.

Did you see your puppy in the vid I posted?

Tamara McIntosh


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## Kat LaPlante (May 17, 2009)

Tamara McIntosh said:


> This week??? I will be in Glenwood NEXT week, but that is south of Calgary about 2 hrs. What's going on in Calgary?
> 
> In north america, you can still compete with a non registered dog. YOu can go to nationals and you could even win (potentially) however you just can not go to FCI world competition. Ringsport in the USA and Canada allows "blue dogs" which are unregistered dogs, and the dutchie would fall under that. I believe that sch also allows unregistered dogs.
> 
> ...


Nothing is going on that I know of I thought I heard Jason say that some people from Edmonton were coming down but maybe that is what you are referring to  I have heard of the "blue dog" category I think.

Where is the video? I would love to see it, is it with Tom?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: 
I've got a hankerin' thats the million dollar answer!!

Define "hankerin".

As far as your original question, are you thinking that the DS is middle ground or something ??


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## Kat LaPlante (May 17, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote:
> I've got a hankerin' thats the million dollar answer!!
> 
> Define "hankerin".
> ...


Hankerin | Suspect

No, not middle ground. I dont know of anyone with a DS where I live or that works that DS, makes it tough to see a good one first hand, so I cant form any opinions first hand. From what I have seen via you tube however has made me curious if I see some strengths in the DS that improve upon the typical strengths of both the Mal and the GSD (while observing high level trials) 

I also consider the 2 opinions I hear most often others, such as:

1)They are just a meaner mal
2)They are just a stripey Malinois with no other difference


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Kat LaPlante said:


> Hankerin | Suspect
> 
> No, not middle ground. I dont know of anyone with a DS where I live or that works that DS, makes it tough to see a good one first hand, so I cant form any opinions first hand. From what I have seen via you tube however has made me curious if I see some strengths in the DS that improve upon the typical strengths of both the Mal and the GSD (while observing high level trials)
> 
> ...


number 2 for the most part, but so many variations....even with mals....


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## Tamara McIntosh (Jul 14, 2009)

Kat LaPlante said:


> Nothing is going on that I know of I thought I heard Jason say that some people from Edmonton were coming down but maybe that is what you are referring to  I have heard of the "blue dog" category I think.
> 
> Where is the video? I would love to see it, is it with Tom?


The vid was in the seminar post.

Tamara Champagne goes down to Calgary to train with the Chinook club every couple of weeks so that is prolly whom they are talking about.

I am going down to Glenwood to train with Daniel Lybbert for the July long weekend, and the last week of July he is hosting a seminar and trial as well.

Tamara McIntosh


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

The DS FCI thing is very comparable to what the Presa Canario went through in the 90's. I thought there should be a pretty loose standard physically and to allow outcrossing...they did not choose that path, the "breed" suffered greatly. To this day the rustic working presa types are out of the loop if honestly papered...

I'd be happy to see the Dutch Shepherd X overpower the pure DS in numbers for decades to come...


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Hankerin | Suspect

I have a hankerin for some of your shine Rufus.

So did the guy want something to drink, or was he solving a crime. LOL


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## Aamer Sachedina (May 6, 2008)

Tamara McIntosh said:


> This week??? I will be in Glenwood NEXT week, but that is south of Calgary about 2 hrs. What's going on in Calgary?
> 
> In north america, you can still compete with a non registered dog. YOu can go to nationals and you could even win (potentially) however you just can not go to FCI world competition. Ringsport in the USA and Canada allows "blue dogs" which are unregistered dogs, and the dutchie would fall under that. I believe that sch also allows unregistered dogs.
> Tamara McIntosh


EDIT: Just re-read your post and wanted to point out that even for registered dogs e.g. Malinois, I didn't think that the FCI or FMBB avenue exists in Canada - or does it?

I didn't think that Canada sent an FCI team for IPO for example or a team to the FMBB. Do you know if there is a way that one can, competing in Canada with a Malinois, qualify for FCI world competition or the FMBB?

I didn't think so and I am trying to figure it out. I decided, against the advice of many, to go with a Belgian again (Malinois this time) for my next pup even though the prospect of competing at a level higher than national did not seem open in Canada. If this is not true then I will be more than pleasantly surprised.

A few years ago, a few of us attempted to get the Working Belgian Shepherd Club of Canada going and got FMBB affiliation and I think even GTIM affiliation for the country under that organization. Unfortunately there just wasn't enough support to keep the organization going. Even folks with Mals that I approached at trials to become a member of the umbrella breed club were not interested unless we were holding trials or there was something immediately in it for them. The number of Mals in this country just did not seem to be high enough to warrant the interest. It saddens me.

Aamer


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## Guest (Jun 24, 2010)

The middle ground is not a Dutchie. The middle ground between a Mali and a GSD for everything besides civil man work is a well bred old timey Pit Bull. Athletic and drivey as a Mal, nerves like a GSD, stamina, tenacity and physical strength is on a whole other higher level than either a Mal or GSD, more social than a Lab, thrives on a fraction of what all those breeds eat and has an instant off switch. Handles heat *SO* much better than a Mal, Lab or a GSD. 

Drawbacks: needs a jacket for winter, won't often start fights but will often not back down from a fight with another animal and the threshold is very low if it is perceived that another animal is serious about engaging so loud mouthed shadow boxers beware, may have issues doing civil protection work.


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## Tamara McIntosh (Jul 14, 2009)

Aamer Sachedina said:


> EDIT: Just re-read your post and wanted to point out that even for registered dogs e.g. Malinois, I didn't think that the FCI or FMBB avenue exists in Canada - or does it?
> 
> I didn't think that Canada sent an FCI team for IPO for example or a team to the FMBB. Do you know if there is a way that one can, competing in Canada with a Malinois, qualify for FCI world competition or the FMBB?
> 
> ...


It is true that Canadian people are pretty lazy and apathetic. They would rather sit back and bitch about the GSD run schutzhund system than actually do any actual work to change the status quo. I guess if they changed it they wouldn't have anything to bitch about???

MONDIO WILL BE BACK!! The head of the FCI Mondio sport (the GTIM is no longer the ruling body for mondio) knows of us Canadians and of our re-entry into mondio and I believe that with the right foundation and with the excellent help and guidance from the USMRA, we will be welcomed into the mondio world again. The wheels are in motion.

From a positive perspective, I believe that the WBSCC made contact with the FMBB and was successful in gaining recognition. The organization itself seem to fade out of existance, however they did prove that it is possible. 

Maybe it doesn't have to be a huge amazing organization the first couple times out of the gate, maybe it could be one person representing Canada at the FMBB. Honestly I think people here don't deal well in "possibility" they want to see results before they try. If someone could informally contact the FMBB and ask if it would be possible to send a team, or if you could with with the AWMA somehow and send a team next year, people would sit up and take notice. Especially if you push the FMBB AGILITY worlds.

Contact the FMBB and ask for direction in the matter, what would they recommend? What are qualifying scores or are there even qualifying scores? Do the titles have to be done under FCI judges or can they be GSSCC judges? Can you qualify with DVG? Or better yet contact the AMWA and ask them these questions. We do not have to reinvent the wheel, we can learn from others just as easy.

I would support a working malinois association here (I tried to support the first one as well), however I am tied up right now in the mondio ring reserrection and do not have a whole lot of time, but I can give what I have for sure.

And that is all I have to say about that.

Tamara McIntosh


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## sam wilks (May 3, 2009)

isnt there enough middle ground within each of those breeds?#-o


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## Aamer Sachedina (May 6, 2008)

Tamara - thanks for your thoughts. Lots of suggestions I didn't even consider.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

GSD's are there for women and old men, Malis and Dutchies are for the people who have expectations.  
Seriously tho, the Dutchie is no middle ground between a GSD and a Mali. The KNPV Dutchie (FCI ones dont count  is similar to the KNPV Mali, except they generally have stripes..........


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