# 9 month old rottweiler obedience



## halie lenk (Sep 1, 2013)

This is my first working dog, and first video because I was nervous of the criticism. But I think he's coming along nicely now, while I'm working on my own training skills. (I know I did the same pattern, but I was trying to keep the video short while showing his heel and some commands. I normally try to keep him guessing and changing it up)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sjHciGJ5tk


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## John Ly (Mar 26, 2014)

constructive criticism is how we grow in training!

to help keep the dog in drive you should pick up the pace and give more 90 degree turns. a brisk walk is the pace you should be aiming for. also you are not lively enough. thats important to a young dog. they get excited as you get excited. i would also upgrade to a ball on a string. wiggle the ball in front of his face and get him excited and tuck it under your armpit. this dog isnt ready for you to hide the ball yet!


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Halie, there are some folks that you will never please. And some that live to pick stuff apart. I liked what you did and your boy does it better at 9 months than mine does at 15 months. Where do you plan on going with this dog? Are you doing this for fun or do you plan on competing?

If you are doing this just for yourself then that's one thing. If you are planning on competing then that's something else and you might need to change some stuff.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

I agree with what John says about being more animated and pick up the pace. Also about the ball on a string. Even better is a magnet ball that serves as a focus target and easily accessible reward all in one :=)


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

I was hoping to see a happy dog working but he is under too much stress.
He is feeling a lot of pressure and you will have to be careful to not shut him down.
Can you explain a little bit more about how you are training him?
Imo he should learn to like to work(play) before you are going to do more advance things.
There are many videos on the net about dog training and i always like to see a happy go lucky young dog.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Ditto on Jack's post!


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

don't get defensive - people are trying to help, not cut you up 
take the criticism you are getting and grow thick skin in the process

it is obvious u try and keep him guessing, but u might be doing that too much because he often looks confused as to what you want at any given time
- when you plan your sessions, make ONE rep for one behavior and get it strong and reliable b4 you mix and match the reps and sets

his engagement is fine in my opinion
when he doesn't respond to what you ask, take a bit more time to "reset" him before moving on and that might help decrease the confusion factor 

it's been said but worth repeating ... get more animated and you will probably be more clearer and your rewards will have better timing 
- and that doesn't mean you have to jump around and act spastic ... just more animated....as if you are really enjoying working WITH him and not just giving him commands that u want him to respond to 

don't make a video to "show" something. just make videos of your training so it is clear what you are working on. think of it as raw footage, not a demo of something you want to illustrate

keep trucking...nice dog


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i disagree the dog "is under too much stress"

unless the dog is a nerve bag, which i don't think it is, it's hard to see stress without some pressure being applied and i didn't see that happening

i simply saw a bit of confusion as to what is being expected and surprise when the ball is tossed rather than seeing it as a reward. more like "ok here's a ball; go get it", rather than "YES, that is exactly what i wanted!"

but since the wind blocked out a lot of verbals i couldn't connect the behaviors to the commands, marks and rewards that well, so i could be way off


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

you "may" want to stop using the grabbing his collar and lifting him to release the ball, if you plan to do bitework at all with him, he is spitting it out rather quickly, and with some dogs this may transfer over to the bitework behaviors depending on the dogs character, and I dont know your dogs character so it might be fine..just saying.. could end up causing problems, like avoidance to you grabbing him, or him letting go of bites when there is collar pressure or his feet are off of the ground.., among other things...

if you have to grab his collar lift him then wait or pry it out of his mouth, I might not say this,....or I might

again maybe fine, but dont know your dog, only you do


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## halie lenk (Sep 1, 2013)

Thanks all for the advice! Super helpful. I need to stop being so boring apparently  I will definitely start being more animated. I do get too focused and demanding and forget he's still so young. I'll answer the questions
I am wanting to compete in PSA with him. So I've been training around heavy distractions since day one.
I definitely do need a ball on a string. It's on order. lol
Also, I actually never wanted him to focus on the reward. His focus point has always been my face, and I've hid the reward. If I'm wrong in thinking this, please correct me 
His training has been done with luring, reward, etc. And only verbal corrections until the past week, that I've started pinch corrections. As he's just started to blow off the verbal
Joby: I was thinking that too. That he was releasing too quickly and not fighting for it. Should I just work on a verbal out then?
Again, thanks everyone for the constructive criticism


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

- will he still be a PPD ?

- with PSA now in mind, why do you prefer a ball over a tug for a reward ?


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## halie lenk (Sep 1, 2013)

He will first and foremost be PPD. That's my biggest concern with him. But at this age I havent been able to test anything to tell me if he'll have the defense for it. He's showing good signs (solid nerves, barking at strange noises outside the window at night, intense, hard stare at new people.) And I haven't found any trainers that know a lot about that, versus just sport.
And I haven't been able to get him to like the tug enough :/ The ball is the only thing he goes crazy for. Now, I also haven't been able to go to club and do bitework with him consistently yet. I've just been doing what I can alone by back-tying him and teasing him with a rag and working on grip. Tried the tug, he'll bite it, but only a few times and loses interest.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> I agree with what John says about being more animated and pick up the pace. Also about the ball on a string. Even better is a magnet ball that serves as a focus target and easily accessible reward all in one :=)


I absolutely love my magnet ball. Here is a little thing with me playing with my dog Phin working position with some low level e-collar and clicker with a jackpot reward with a magball. 

https://youtu.be/kiG62hLR52c 

You can hear me giving him feedback 'bridge marking' "guh guhd good" all the way through, telling him when he is in proper position (remember talk is cheap) it bumps his intrinsic motivation without having to give a terminal mark with jackpot reward until you really want to give it. 

Remember the reward is not the 'terminal mark' the yes or the click is. The terminal mark is only telling the dog that reward is forthcoming. A common mistake is trying to mark and rewarding to soon. As it creates confusion for the dog what it is actually getting marked for. I.e is it going for the ball that is getting marked or was it the behaviour you as the handler were looking for? 

So always remember 'mark the behaviour' ...'pause for thought' *REWARD!!!*


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

halie lenk said:


> Joby: I was thinking that too. That he was releasing too quickly and not fighting for it. Should I just work on a verbal out then?
> 
> Again, thanks everyone for the constructive criticism


Outs for me are again part of a game. I was taught by a smart trainer that every time we ask the dog to out and we don't give something in return for a compliance we have just punished that 'out'. Especially with a young dog. 

In the big picture we'd all want to have our dogs act like robots and comply with everything we say because they understand English. :-k But reality is far far from that. So I always show my clients and club members to play a series of games with their dogs to gain the dog's trust and build their willingness to work with us as we build a handler and dog team. i.e Dog give me a ball I trade for a piece of food or another ball or praise etc etc. 

Don't be like this guy with your teaching the out.
https://youtu.be/RiAvHPPc8M8


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Ditto with Geoff.

I teach the out on a ball, tug or even a sleeve with that same object I asked it to out.

If the dog knows the reward for an out off a sleeve will be to get the sleeve back then why would it not out if it knows the it will get the sleeve back?

Pressure from the decoy can always be added with more maturity IF the dog has the capacity to handle it. 

Still lots more ways of doing this though.


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## Stefan Schaub (Sep 12, 2010)

I think it was lovely!!!


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Rick, sorry maybe i did not explain what i saw good enough.
We did not see any pressure being applied but the dog is sure enough feeling pressure.The reason i do not know but it is not a happy dog.
It could be the handler is a little nervous about posting the video or something else.
The handler and the dog should at this stage have fun playing together and that is what i miss!
The dog should receive vocal rewards and encouragement ,the dog is toooo young to being drilled.
Halie you should have fun!You have a nice young dog and want to do things right,great!
Try to be happy in your training and you will see a different dog real soon,he is a Rott try to reward with food.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i understand what you are saying Jack and agree
your other post gave me a different impression 

that is also why i wanted to be sure this dog is being trained for PSA and "first and foremost" as a protection dog and that part can't be seen by walking it around in a heeling session. different type of pressure required for that foundation

of course the dog would have more fun if it had clearer direction by an animated handler....even when pressure WAS being applied and i think that dog is ready for that

to me "pressure" doesn't have to mean stressing a dog
- more like giving it a challenge that it can ENJOY dealing with, rather than giving stick hits to get it "aggressive" etc
- i think the dog is ready for more challenge even tho it's young

but back to pressure and stress and making videos ...
- i think you would agree the "pressure" thing is always a balance between a challenge the dog can handle and and a challenge it can't handle; like when the dog has to decide to fight, or run, or shut down, etc)
- but the same can be said for OB work
- focus on one item at a time, raise the bar with challenges (distractions and pressure), and slowly piece them together

1. don't make a video to "show a problem", or for sure you WILL //lol//
2. make videos of your work and allow people to give suggestions how to improve on it
3. more sessions but shorter ones, and quit when the dog wants more rather than keep going til it loses interest


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## halie lenk (Sep 1, 2013)

So I have been doing all the things you guys said, and I can tell a big difference! Thanks so much for all the help. We've also started the out and its definitely made him better and enjoy working more. Instead of the confrontation of choking him off. Ill make another video soon of just a normal working session to show everyone.


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## halie lenk (Sep 1, 2013)

Stefan Schaub said:


> I think it was lovely!!!


Thank you for the compliment! 
Wait till you see a better video now that I know better


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

TX for checking back in Halie and nice to see someone take criticisms constructively for a change 

many roads to rome but try not to take too many on your way there or you will run out of gas 

for what it's worth i don't think you will have many problems with the OB

will be interesting to hear about the bitework development, PSA wise and PPD wise
- the things you mentioned that you liked seeing are not necessarily good in themselves. my current house dog is not a nerve bag and will do all of those things but would make a HORRIBLE ppd and would NEVER get a PSA title 
.... all about motivation and control in bite work

we've never had a thread last very long when it comes to personal protection 
... but if you can explain what you want in that regards you can get some experienced people to add some of their pros/cons. it's a VERY "subjective" subject as you already know //lol//


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Stefan Schaub said:


> I think it was lovely!!!


lovely?


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

jack van strien said:


> Rick, sorry maybe i did not explain what i saw good enough.
> We did not see any pressure being applied but the dog is sure enough feeling pressure.The reason i do not know but it is not a happy dog.
> It could be the handler is a little nervous about posting the video or something else.
> The handler and the dog should at this stage have fun playing together and that is what i miss!
> ...


I think the reason was from the first few minutes I saw of the vidoe that she was pussy-footing around the dog. This can cause confusion or stress.


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## halie lenk (Sep 1, 2013)

rick smith said:


> TX for checking back in Halie and nice to see someone take criticisms constructively for a change
> 
> many roads to rome but try not to take too many on your way there or you will run out of gas
> 
> ...


Thanks Rick!
As far as PPD wise, I just want a dog that will not back down, will bite for real, and will fire up on command. I don't need anything heavy duty (although I do have a huge interest and want to learn about police k9 protection and more intense PPD training). I know I'm putting that very generally, so if more detail is needed, please ask. 
I've only been able to go to a club twice, due to trying to buy a house and heavy work schedule. once when he was 10 wks, and another about 2 months ago. Both times, everyone said he did well. In another month, I plan on going continuously and developing the bitework. 
Why do you say they aren't necessarily good? I was wondering myself, since I haven't been able to find much info on PPD. I'm just guessing really.


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## halie lenk (Sep 1, 2013)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I think the reason was from the first few minutes I saw of the vidoe that she was pussy-footing around the dog. This can cause confusion or stress.


The pussy-footing may be from my stupid decision to wear sandals. haha
But please explain. Did you mean literally, or my overall nervousness?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

halie lenk said:


> The pussy-footing may be from my stupid decision to wear sandals. haha
> But please explain. Did you mean literally, or my overall nervousness?



From "MY" point of view I think it was your whole body language along with the slow pace. 

Your thinking to hard about the dog AND what your doing thus my suggestion to work on YOUR footwork without the dog. It can be a great confidence builder for a new dog handler and the dog will feed off of that. 

Step out with confidence! :wink:


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Step out with confidence! :wink:



Ditto!! +++++!!!!

Being confident yourself will reflect on the dog. Remember negativity flows down the leash and you as a handler can control that.


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## ron ligtenberg (Mar 4, 2015)

Hi Halie,

Don't know if you noticed but you see him using his tongue a lot during the exercise.
That are the signs of stress in the dog.
That's what Jack means I think with signs of pressure..
Could be just insecurity about the exercise.
And this "could " (maybe its your normal way of doing) happen because you feel a bit insecure about the exercise.
Like a lot of people already said enjoy the training.
If you feel good he feels good.


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Yes Ron that is exactly what i meant,glad someone saw it.
At that age i like to see a dog that reacts to anything as fun,eat it or bite it!
Halie at what point do you need to be convinced he will fight for you?And what if he doesn't?
Why the need for a ppd?Why not just a good sport dog who can do the job just as well?
How is he around strangers?Does he alert? when?
Because it is your first dog you really need to figure out what you want and why.
I know it is a little of topic but can you convince me why you need a ppd?


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i saw the lip smacking too
but i will also say that body language comes in clusters and has to be judged that way

the fairly lackluster, low key way that session went in that empty parking place is why i didn't see pressure or stress as the primary problem
- the dog was engaged and a stressed dog under pressure will usually look away more often or give some other avoidance signals. it will often look away when lip smacking, or add a yawn and/or raise a paw. there was also one time when it gave a head flick but i don't think it did the head shake and lick at the same time
- but for the most part it's gait was lively considering how low level the handling was

i would still say it was more confused than anything else. maybe that was also due to being off lead ???

getting the dog hyped up more and in a higher drive will of course look more impressive, but there is nothing wrong with doing OB at low levels too 

- but if that session was considered pressure by the dog and resulted in stress, you could probably forget PPD work, which she hasn't, so that probably means we just haven't seen the whole picture of this dog yet

i'd really like to see the evaluation work that is giving her good vibes the dog is cut out for PSA and a future PPD job

by the way Jack ... she already said why she needed a PPD ... in her previous thread


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

It's a mistake to expect all the signs of stress to show all the time. When looking at body language you should be looking at the whole picture and not just snippets. Overall what is the entire picture showing you? And it's a mistake to expect the entire list of stress indicators to show all the time. If you are waiting until you get the full gamut of symptoms to show then you have missed all the precursors and your train has already left the station.

BTW, lip licking is also a sign of submission. Yawning and looking away are also considered "calming signals" that the dog is giving not so much that they are stressed out but are trying to tell you to calm down. Its up to the human to understand in which context the non-verbal signs are being used.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Halie

What YOU transmitted to me was someone who was not someone who was secure in what she was doing. This can transmit itself to the dog.

When I first started IPO obedience, I watched other handlers. Some "strutted" around like Military Generals but the whole "Show" was what is expected in IPO today.

It is a show. But it is a show in that you are proud of!! The training must obviously be solid but the end result is a "show nunber".

The more confident you feel about this the more confident the dog will be.


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## halie lenk (Sep 1, 2013)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Halie
> 
> What YOU transmitted to me was someone who was not someone who was secure in what she was doing. This can transmit itself to the dog.
> 
> ...


Thanks Giliian. I agree. I need to be more sure of myself. And more lively. lol I've been doing this and have seen better results. 

As far as the need for a PPD and not just sport, I'll break it down here too. I have reasons for wanting a dog that I can trust to protect if it comes to it. I also have a .380 on me at all times for the same reasons. The dog is a 2nd defense. I don't need something as heavy duty as a police k9 or mwd protection dog, but I do want a dog that is trained and proofed to bite when called upon and needed. I already have a dog that would be considered 'just a sport dog' although I have no titles on her. She does things perfectly, precisely, quickly, and will bark ferociously when commanded. However, if you approach her she will wag her tail and lead you to where all the valuables are. lol

I will make another video soon once we do some more work and show everyone how their help, helped.


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