# Hand Raised problem pup!



## Greg Williams (Aug 5, 2007)

I have a 9mo old malinois pup that I bred. The mothe killed 2 out of 5 pups at a week old. I tried to hand raise the rest. Out of te 3 remaining one lived, which is the one I have now at 9mos old. My dilema! The pup showed signs of dog agression at 6wks. old. Meaning he got out of his enclosure in my kitchen and latched into my girlfriend's 10mo old and shook him like he was a pit bull. Next, at 8wks old he bit my girlfriend and ripped her open (puppy teeth) for nothing more then pickng him up. At 4mos old he bit her again, busting her open pretty good. At 5 mos. old the pup found some hot dogs laying on our training field and decided I was too close so he come at me to hurt me. As he was coming I put my boot in hisface and let him bite that and managed to defuse the situation. At 7mos he tried to bite me viciously for drying him off after a bath. Something I've done 100 times before with out any problems. Now at 9mos. old I was giving him a bath and while he was soaped up I saw that same blank look he gave in every case. I grabbed his collar and he went off. I alpha rolled him but he slipped out of one hand and got me in the hand still holding him. I shoved him away from me and he come, lip curled and baring teeth. So I rapped him a good one on the nose. He came again and I upper cut him with an open hand. At this time he put his back to the door and continued coming anytime I got close snarling the whole time. 
Eventually my girlfriend came out to see what was going on. At which time she got him in the house and put him in his crate.
He can be sweet most of the time. You just never know what's going to set him off.
This is my first hand raised pup and the first time I have ever seen a pup act this bad. He seems to have nerve issues and picks and chooses who he likes and don't like. I can't help butthink this dog is a product of hand raising. Is this an appropriate thought? Has anyone else hand raised a single pup, and if so what was your experience with said pup? And finally will this pup be like this the rest of his life?
Thanks for any and all info.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Sorry to hear all this.

I have had mothers kill off pups, and this is something that I stopped the first time. There is something really wrong when this occurs, and the hand raised pups were all a bit nutty.

If I had another bitch to put the pups on, it was a lot better, but the pups were still a bit weird, but not nearly as bad as the hand raised pups.

This is something that I stopped by culling these pups off. Whatever weird nerve problem, or emotional problem the mother had, was passed, and these pups all met their end early. I was fairly young, and did not see the problem for what it was.

My advise is to put the dog down. I do not think this was all about the hand raising, but more to the mother that attacked and killed her pups passing some weird nerve issue.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

His behavior sounds a lot like "Cocker Rage Syndrome." There is no cure for it, because no one knows exactly what it is or what causes it. Unfortunately, I agree with Jeff on this one - the dog needs to be put down because he could very well seriously injure someone (or worse...) as he gets bigger.


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## Jessica Fry (Jan 4, 2007)

It's sad, but as a biologist I have to agree with the above two posts... 

The killing of newborn offspring by a mother animal (in any predatory species) is a sure sign there is something seriously wrong with the young. The reason the mother eats the offspring is simple nutrient recycling / damage control: the mother senses the young are not viable (for whatever reason, be it physical or mental) and instinctively decides not to expend resources in an attempt to raise them. Also, eating the young prevents further loss of energy (which she has already expended by carrying the young for an X amount of time) because that way enemies can't find (and eat) them.

Like I said, it's very sad and probably one of the hardest things to watch, a grown dog eating her own puppies (which you have been anxiously anticipating of course). But the problems your experiencing with this pup are probably the case in point. It sounds like the pup is seriously 'off' in some way (I'm not going to guess how, I'm a biologist not a vet), which was probably what triggered the mother to (attempt to) eat him (and the other pups). 

If I were you, I'd at least take the dog to a veterinarian and have it examined for any possible physical issues that may be causing this behaviour. Maybe it has a physical issue that is causing him pain and therefore causing the behaviour. If the dog is healthy physically and the problem is 'between the ears' solely, you might have to make a difficult decision before the dog is big enough to cause serious damage.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: (I'm not going to guess how, I'm a biologist not a vet), 

OH PUUUUUULEASE. Like vets know **** all about animal behavior. I still get people telling me that their vet told them to wait till they are 6 months to train the dogs.


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## Jessica Fry (Jan 4, 2007)

No, but vets _are_ generally pretty good at uncovering physical issues. 

That's what I meant with the referral to a vet. It would be a shame to just chalk it up to miswiring in the pup's head when it may be a (perhaps treatable) physical issue. Wouldn't you agree?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: That's what I meant with the referral to a vet. It would be a shame to just chalk it up to miswiring in the pup's head when it may be a (perhaps treatable) physical issue. Wouldn't you agree?

I have had more than my share of experience with this, and have known breeders (show) that continue to breed these bitches in the hopes that it was a first litter experience. It wasn't, and while I have seen pups come out OK, they were just pet dogs, and not ever really out of their yard.

All in all, when dealing with high speed dogs, especially when you ARE looking for that "edge" this is just a reality check on the way to a good breeding program. I am more of a "why waste time on a sketchy dog" type of guy.

As a breeder, I started off using bitches with "male" like characteristics, and this happened to me. It was not a large percentage, but I shifted my thought process a bit, and got better results, and never had a pup killer again. (thank GOD, so unnerving to see)


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## Jessica Fry (Jan 4, 2007)

I understand and agree with your point from a working dog breeder's standpoint, Jeff. No doubt about it.

But thinking from Greg's perspective here in dealing with this individual dog... I mean, the dog is already there. Greg has obviously put some effort into making this work and may have run into a serious problem. My take would just be to define the problem thoroughly before making a (potentially final) decision. Granted, it may be unavoidable, but a well funded decision usually has less potential for haunting the decision maker (what if...?) in the long run.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

WOW you can change acclimatizing to finished ! ! ! LOL Of course in the Netheregions, I am sure they would stick the dog in a kennel and train him. If he was not a good training candidate, then they would shoot him.  

It is all up to Greg, and I am very sorry he had to see this sort of thing first hand. 

All around, I wish him the best of luck on this decision. One of the reasons I am happy not to breed.......although the itch is coming back again. Dammit.


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## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

Greg the actions/reactions of the pup your describing sounds very familiar to me. Although my dog who was much the way as you described was not hand raised - she did launch all out assaults on me, other people and my other dogs at a very young age and up until she was about a little more then a year old. I know of at least one other pup in her litter and I believe there was at least one more that was killed by the mother plopping down on it (accidental?) - I did get her before she turned 8 weeks old. The blank stare you mentioned brought back alot of bad memories for me - as she would be perfectly fine one minute and then get this look as if she was "not home" and then launch an all out attack for no apparent reason. It was not an everyday occurence, just out of the blue. Had her checked by several vets and they found nothing. At 5 months old I actually had to hang her from a pinch collar (not proud of this fact at all) because after she clamped down on my arm for no reason, she would not let go. Once I did get her off, and she was off the ground, she was still trying her darndest to come back for more. She "saw the light" more then a few times before turning one years old then I care to remember, but I did what had to be done given the circumstances. I could not (now Jeff can call me a sissy) give up on this bitch and put her down because of the other side that I saw of her, even though I admit there were more then a few times I wanted to be done with her. If I had young children, I know I would not have been so soft.

She is not perfect now, still a dominant bitch with my other dogs but does not launch attacks on them. I would not trust her with just anyone and never around children (even supervised) because of her past, but it has been almost a year since I've seen the blank stare or she's launched an unprovoked attack on me or anyone else. She's the same bitch I just put an OB1 on.....

In the end you've gotta do what you think is right for you and those around you.....


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## Leo Hinojosa (Sep 4, 2007)

Hey Greg,
I heard from Cheryl C who has hand raised pups in the past...she found every single one she hand raised had some form of issue. The last I knew she would never do it again. 

It might be best to put him down if it is a nerve issue, are you positive it is not a dominance issue ? 

Leo


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

What an amazing thread. Such a complex set of issues. I wonder if it's a bad mother issue or just bad wiring in the pups brain that the mother reacts to. Maybe the hand raising misses a critical socialization that the mom imparts at a very early age.

Anyway, I am simply an observer, but I had never heard of such a thing. Very interesting.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

I mentioned Cocker Rage earlier, which this _really_ sounds very similar to. Here's some information about it, for anyone who's interested:

http://www.burns-pet-nutrition.co.uk/Articles/Stan_rage_syndrome.htm
http://www.cockerspanielrage.org.uk/whatisrage.htm
http://www.dogstuff.info/cocker_rage_syndrome.html


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

sounds to me like a dangerous pup who's going to turn into a dangerous dog. i have no input as to the cause of the issue, but it seems to me beside the point at this time. why screw around w/a dog like that when there're so many good ones out there? if he was mine, he'd be PTS.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

> sounds to me like a dangerous pup who's going to turn into a dangerous dog. i have no input as to the cause of the issue, but it seems to me beside the point at this time. why screw around w/a dog like that when there're so many good ones out there? if he was mine, he'd be PTS.


I hate to have to agree.

I had a dog out of a litter where the mother attacked and killed a pup at 4-6 wks. (Not exactly sure when). I did everything I could but the damage was done. Her behavior problems seemed to be genetic in nature. There was no effective remedy besides keeping her sedated. It was very sad because she was the sweetest most amazing dog, but also unpredictably dangerous. She was miserable. I had her PTS because her quality of life was poor and there was nothing that could be done to improve it.


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## Greg Williams (Aug 5, 2007)

Thanks for all the responses! I really appreciate it! If it were just up to me the pup would have been gone long ago as some people have seen the dog and wanted to buy him. I just can't do that in good faith, plus my grlfriend is giving me fit about it!
Anyway, in a last ditch effort we took the pup to the vet. And the vet found a large knot on the pups head. She seems to think it was some sort of skull fracture that heeled it's self. She also seems to think b/c of the location of the knot in referece to the brain that this knot could be causing pressure on the brain and triggering these rage out breaks so to speak. So now, dishing out even more $$$ and b/c of my girlfriend we are going to set an appt. to get him a cat scan. See the trouble girlfriends cause when it comes to dogs! lol Damn bleeding hearts!
On another note I truely believe the mother started killing pups b/c of to much stress. One being a strange dog in the house we were breeding to (and probably the main reason) and secondly, my girlfriend kept taking people in to ee the pups when I wasn't home. I probably would have never found out about except she finally had enough and bit the neighbor. I wanted to kill her!!! Two days later she started getting really wigged out. She didn't try to eat them. She bit them in the head and cracked there skulls.
One things for sure, I will NEVER try to save a pup if the mother tries to kill them. I've got enough $$$ invested in this pup (b/c of my girlfriend! GOD I love her!!!) that I could have bought PH1 by now! lol


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## Greg Williams (Aug 5, 2007)

Kristen,
I read the articles and do not believe this to be "Cocker Rage". This pup is very predictable when he becomes agressive.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

So tell us where the knot is........some dogs could use a little artificial help


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## Hil Harrison (Mar 29, 2006)

so if the mother pup cracked the skulls of the other pups maybe the pup you have now met the same fate but survived it?


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## Michelle Kutelis (Sep 28, 2006)

Greg I am sorry about your pup- never an easy thing to go through, but this is fascinating to hear about.

I hand-raised a pup that mother tried to kill, for my roomate, years ago- he made it until 3 weeks. I left him in the care of the roomate while I went to work and mom found him in his laundry basket and killed him. I had thought it a horrible "accident" but now I wonder if she was glad for the second chance to rid the world of him.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

As harsh as it sounds, I learned a long time ago to not go to extremes to try to save a pup, especially if mom wants to do it in. I've never had a bitch try to kill an entire litter, if I did she'd never be bred again, and neither would her close relatives. And I'd probably go ahead and just cull the litter then and there. I have had the occasional female kill a single pup. Each time it was a pup that wasn't doing really well on it's own, that I was helping out. I'd find it pushed off into a corner, and put it back with mom, help it nurse, give it a bottle, whatever. Finally mom got tired of trying to tell me something, and took matters into her own "hands". Other than helping with a little supplementing if I have a double digit litter (10 or more) and mom's having a hard time keeping up with milk production, I pretty much go with "let nature take it's course". If they are in a good clean, warm, etc environment, mom is producing enough milk for everyone to get what they need, mom is a good mom, and a pup still can't survive, there's a reason for it. 
I'd think long and hard before breeding this female again, and I'd probably try to get the vet on my side about recommending euthanasia, your girlfriend might take it better if the vet recommends it.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

ann freier said:


> sounds to me like a dangerous pup who's going to turn into a dangerous dog. i have no input as to the cause of the issue, but it seems to me beside the point at this time. why screw around w/a dog like that when there're so many good ones out there? if he was mine, he'd be PTS.


Agreed. And I'll address this from the other end. 

A dog with a brain disconnect is not done any favors by someone who insists on keeping him alive. And this is from someone who adopts needy dogs to keep the GSD company.

The right thing to do *for the dog*, IMHO, is PTS. It sounds like a big thing to say for someone who has only an internet description to go on, but:

Ask your GF to put everything else aside, whether it's the danger or the cost or whatever, and think about this strictly from compassion for the dog.

Confusion and even terror are likely to be visited on a dog who has both the misfortune of no mother to have given him the right beginning, AND a head injury that's manifesting itself with what looks like brain synapse problems.... A bewildered dog who snaps in and out of focus like that ends up scared to death.


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## Greg Williams (Aug 5, 2007)

Thanks again guys and gals! I've let my G/F read everyone's posts. Still a battle, but I think it's starting to sink in. everything most of you have said is the same thing's I've been saying fr a while now. I just think she needed to hear it from someone else. Thanks again.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Greg Williams said:


> Thanks again guys and gals! I've let my G/F read everyone's posts. Still a battle, but I think it's starting to sink in. everything most of you have said is the same thing's I've been saying fr a while now. I just think she needed to hear it from someone else. Thanks again.


Giving this dog the gift of a peaceful end with a friendly hand would be something you and your GF could always feel good about yourselves for.

I mean that 100%.

I see too many dogs kept alive to satisfy something the owner needs or wants, when the kindest thing of all is PTS. (I don't mean you; I'm just commenting on how sad I feel when I see a dog living a very bad life when it could be gently ended.)


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

> I see too many dogs kept alive to satisfy something the owner needs or wants, when the kindest thing of all is PTS. (I don't mean you; I'm just commenting on how sad I feel when I see a dog living a very bad life when it could be gently ended.)


I totally agree.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I see too many dogs kept alive to satisfy something the owner needs or wants, when the kindest thing of all is PTS. (I don't mean you; I'm just commenting on how sad I feel when I see a dog living a very bad life when it could be gently ended.)


I have to second this. I'm watching this right now with an acquaintances’ dog. The dog is already elderly, and going down hill quickly. But in an effort to keep it around it's recently been subjected to surgeries, is now fighting a serious infection, and it's time to let it go. Sometimes it's hard on us, be we have to think about whats best for the dog, not for us.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

At the very least, I'd certainly humanely cull this dog ASAP (neuter him) to make sure he does not ever breed. Growth plates closing, blah blah blah. You've got more important things to worry about honestly than him maintaining testicular integrity and neutering an adolescent animal is not the end of the world. Current testosterone levels in the animal aren't a guarantee the aggression, if compounded by sex hormones, is going to go down, but it sure wouldn't hurt. I would likely not breed the bitch again either. If you keep him, it sounds like you'll likely have a lifetime of maintenance to keep him liveable, even if it is a fixable medical problem. He may be one of those dogs you just can't ever let your guard around, which is going to be a big liability and something that may never be rehabilitated.


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## Greg Williams (Aug 5, 2007)

Good advice! He was neuterd at 4mos of age b/c I knew I would never breed him. As far as the female goes, she has had a second litter and is doing great with them. 
I don't believe her incident to be anything more then upset and not feeling safe with her pups at that particular time. Mother's that don't feel safe with their young will often kill them to keep them from being killed by predators. It happens in both wild and domestic animals. Things were done differently this time to make sure she felt safe and it worked out. In fact, my vet went as far as to tell me this behaviour is common in 1st time mothers and he wouldn't hesitate breeding her a 2nd time.


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