# Lets talk Dobermanns!



## vadim shekhtman (Jan 27, 2008)

The Working Dobermann Forum now has a new home with a new easier to use format with many new user features. The forum also now has translation capability to any language. 

Come interact with working Dobermann Breeders, Handlers and Fans from around the world.

Comeby and say hello. 
http://usadobermann.proboards.com/


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

You mean come and be disgusted by the same head in the sand BS. LOL Other than yourself, there are too few that cannot see the shitter the breed has become, and doubtful that anything will be done on the scale needed to fix the breed.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

I have worked some nice sport Dobermans. They are few and most that I have seen on the streets can back a bug off a carpet! Need to see more selective breeding like in the 1970s.


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## Vince Jones (Dec 6, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> You mean come and be disgusted by the same head in the sand BS. LOL Other than yourself, there are too few that cannot see the shitter the breed has become, and doubtful that anything will be done on the scale needed to fix the breed.


 
Sorry, I see it differently. While i understand the current working problems in the breed, I am tired of Shepherds and mals.How can anyone be disgusted by TRYING something they enjoy. I will be logging onto the site out of curiosity as to who is doing what with the breed. If you/anyone doesn't like something don't knock it if someone else does. Personally I believe the AKC crowd ruined the breed but that is just my opinion. "Maybe" nothing can be done to fix te breed, but that doesn't mean some people shouldn't try.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> You mean come and be disgusted by the same head in the sand BS. LOL Other than yourself, there are too few that cannot see the shitter the breed has become, and doubtful that anything will be done on the scale needed to fix the breed.



Jeff,

Instead of talking trash and being negative, why don't you take a look first? There are a lot of people training and working Dobermanns and most are on the other WDF (Working Dobermann Forum) Your breed the Rottweiler is in a similar state. Some people stick with their breed and try to improve things. Others (like you?) take the easy way out and
switch to the Malinois and Dutch Shepherds. :-(


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## Alan R. Wyatt (Dec 28, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Jeff,
> 
> Instead of talking trash and being negative, why don't you take a look first? There are a lot of people training and working Dobermanns and most are on the other WDF (Working Dobermann Forum) Your breed the Rottweiler is in a similar state. Some people stick with their breed and try to improve things. Others (like you?) take the easy way out and
> switch to the Malinois and Dutch Shepherds. :-(


He was there a while back and appeared to make some life long friends during his short stay. \\/


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Thomas, lets be realistic. The few breeding programs out there are barely producing any that are that solid. It would be nice to see a group doing something, but I went on that forum, and just got the same lame arguments. 

The Rott is and always will be a dog that I enjoy, but lets face it, it is not gonna be what it was, and by some miracle if someone did bring it back, there is not enough people out there that could deal with them. Just like the Dobermann.

All the people that I had discussions with were breeders ?? I don't think so. There would have to be more people producing a hell of a lot of litters to try and get to where they wanted to go with the breed. Just not gonna happen. So, you get a few here and there that can do some stuff, but are those dogs producing anything ??

I just don't see the working homes out there for these dogs. Who wants to spend money on a dog that is a maybe ?? Sandro's dog melted under control, and as he is getting older his thresholds have went up, not down. Who wants to deal with that ??

When I went on that forum last time, most just wanted to argue, as if there was no problems in the breed. There are so many health problems, people are happy just to try and fight those problems, the hell with a dog that can actually work. Besides which, they will show a (1) dog that got lower level titles in ring or something, and think they are proving something.

Then you go back to Dorothy's dog Sandor. I told the last guy that trained him that the dog was gonna hurt someone, unless they were fulfilling his drive for the bite. I told the guy that he should be the only one to handle that dog. 

What happened ?? They worked OB only, and had young girls handling him. When he decided that he did not want to go back into the kennel, he bit that girl, took her to the ground, and was doing exactly what I told that guy he would do.

He wasn't a nut case. He was a Dobermann, and those people just couldn't see that. They are not pass around dogs. He was put down because people just are not ready for an actual Dobermann.

Everyone knows everything about dogs. Just go to petsmart and you get many examples of this. Unfortunately, there are very few that know about dogs out there. I thought this dog was fairly clear in what he was, and EVEN after being told this, I guess they couldn't see it.

RIP Sandor. One of the last.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

*Re: Sandor*

Jeff,

A little side track, but I agree about Sandor. 
I went over Dorothy's to look at Sandor and thought he had a LOT of potential and just needed a little clarification.
Unfortunately she decided to ship him off to Illinois for a long term board and train and then he woundn't up in
California. Where he bit the kennel helper.
You are absolutely correct about Dobermanns NOT being a pass around breed. I think either of us would have been happy working him. Too bad, too many Dobermann people would rather put down a strong Dobermann then give him
to someone that could handle him. :-(




Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Thomas, lets be realistic. The few breeding programs out there are barely producing any that are that solid. It would be nice to see a group doing something, but I went on that forum, and just got the same lame arguments.
> 
> The Rott is and always will be a dog that I enjoy, but lets face it, it is not gonna be what it was, and by some miracle if someone did bring it back, there is not enough people out there that could deal with them. Just like the Dobermann.
> 
> ...


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Jeff,
> 
> Instead of talking trash and being negative, why don't you take a look first? There are a lot of people training and working Dobermanns and most are on the other WDF (Working Dobermann Forum) Your breed the Rottweiler is in a similar state. Some people stick with their breed and try to improve things. Others (like you?) take the easy way out and
> switch to the Malinois and Dutch Shepherds. :-(


Tom,
No reason to bash people that work with dutchies or mals, not everybody is looking for the easy way out. Not everybody is on here bashing people or bashing other breeds. Its all preference of ones likes and lifestyles. I have dutchies because I look at them as a happy medium between the mal and GSD. Loyal to the handler but charge up like a mal. ( mali with a brain or GSD on crack ) Just a figure of speech not trying to get either breed owners panties up in a bunch. Just the reason and the way we see the dutchie breed. I personally like the Rotti and the Dobi. Problem is like some have already said to hard to find a great one. On that note I own a Rotti as well. We have had him for close to ten years, raised and worked from a pup. Good dog but by no means a great one. But hes part of the family and will die hear. But like I said no reason to throw insults like mali and dutchies are the easy way out especially when both breeds require more time, activity, etc... on a daily basis then the rotti or dobi.


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## vadim shekhtman (Jan 27, 2008)

I don't understand why some must bash those trying to improve. Today it is clear that mals and dutchies dominate all sports, why do people still work and breed gsd? If Ferrari dominates racing why do others still produce racing cars?

Dobermanns have aways been somewhat of a rare breed. Thus there have never been as many working Doberman litters as compared to the number of working litters of the other breeds. Take a look at the early KNPV history for one example. While there used to be more dobes earning ph1 there were never as many as gsd, mal or duthchie.
In the 70's the breed became more popular and the number of litters exploded. But were they working litters being bred? Of course not, most were byb, show or pet breedings. This created what to me is really just about a different breed-The Doberman Pinscher not the Dobermann as it was originally created.

How about today how many working dobe litters are out there relative to the number of working mal or gsd litters? I can guarantee you it's a much smaller number. Example: there are less then two dozen or so dobe breeders in all of the US even trying to produce working dobermann. The rest are show and pet. The lack of availability of working dobes increases their price. By the time you take into account health issues there is no surprise there are not that many being chosen to compet at a high level with top handlers.

So when someone says most Dobermans are shitters, I say sure if you are taking into account the thousands and thousands of show dobes out there. However if you are only looking at the working population you would be surprised at how many are actually solid working dogs. Not everyone is a world beater but most are solid and more then capable working dogs. They are out there titling at a variety of venues often with first time handlers. Those few that reach high levels are lucky enough to be owned by the right person with access to the right clubs and trainers capable of taking a dog to that level of achievement. 

So its not surprising that it is rare to see a dobe excelling in working sports, the Working Dobermann is a rare breed to begin with.

The fact the some do reach high levels shows that the working ability is there in the breed but no doubt much harder to find a good prospect. However they are out there if you take the time to do the research to find them. That's where the Working Dobermann Forum comes in. We facilitate interaction between working dobermann breeders, handlers and fans around the world.

We the members of the Working Dobermann Forum persevere to maintain and improve the working ability of the breed. We support those who compete against the odds and share information that helps everyone.

The members on the forum take different attitudes toward what is needed to improve the breed. Some look for better combination within the breed, some have experimented adding others breeds to their lines. 

While not everyone will agree with the approach some take to reaching improvement, there is more then one way to achieve that improvement. One thing you can't deny these people are trying to improve as best they can.

Want to help? Constructive feedback helps everyone. Jeff your experience training for a variety of venues and breeds could help many people.

We welcome anyone interested in learning more about the breed or contributing to its improvement. Bashing the breed just causes the owners to "counter" and go into "fight drive"

I look forward to seeing you online


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Harry Keely said:


> Tom,
> No reason to bash people that work with dutchies or mals, not everybody is looking for the easy way out. Not everybody is on here bashing people or bashing other breeds. Its all preference of ones likes and lifestyles. I have dutchies because I look at them as a happy medium between the mal and GSD. Loyal to the handler but charge up like a mal. ( mali with a brain or GSD on crack ) Just a figure of speech not trying to get either breed owners panties up in a bunch. Just the reason and the way we see the dutchie breed. I personally like the Rotti and the Dobi. Problem is like some have already said to hard to find a great one. On that note I own a Rotti as well. We have had him for close to ten years, raised and worked from a pup. Good dog but by no means a great one. But hes part of the family and will die hear. But like I said no reason to throw insults like mali and dutchies are the easy way out especially when both breeds require more time, activity, etc... on a daily basis then the rotti or dobi.


Harry,

Not bashing, just giving Jeff some sh*t since he gave up on Rotty's 

Belatucadrus is a Dutch Shepherd (or as I like to say, Brindle
Malinois) and Gwrgenau is a new four month old GSD I'm
training for the wife.
Dobermann, Dutchies and GSD's they're all a challenge in their own way


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

*Some cold hard facts*

These are recent registration numbers:

http://www.angelplace.net/photos/GermanRegistrations.htm

There are numbers on the German web site for the next couple
of years, no big changes.

17,000 GSD pups out of two parents with Schutzhund titles.
Yes, we all know the limitations of Schutzhund titles.

700 Dobe pups.

How many out of litters with 2 titled parents ?

You tell me, any at all ?

Very small gene pool, heart disease, von Wildebrants, etc. etc.

What would you have to do to change this ?

Cut yourself off 100 percent from the show people.

Start a new open registry, and breed in outside dogs,
perhaps Beauceron, perhaps Rottweiler, perhaps even Malinois

Build up the numbers for some genetic diversity, breed according
to working results and health.

Small problems:

No dogs eligible for French Ring. I think also not Mondio Ring

You could do KNPV , IPO, Schutzhund. Not sure about Belgian ring.

Can anybody deny that anything less than this would just be
more pretending ?

Is there really a group of people out there willing to go this route ?

If not, what do you actually talk about on your forum ?

I have been down this road.....


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

*Re: Some cold hard facts*



Jim Engel said:


> .............
> Start a new open registry, and breed in outside dogs,
> perhaps Beauceron, perhaps Rottweiler, perhaps even Malinois
> 
> ...


I'd often thought of "the possibility" of breeding a good Dobie into Beaucerons to help the Beauceron as it's the correct color to start with. We have to have the double-dews which is more difficult for our breed vs the dobie and others. I think there is a smaller working gene pool in Beaucerons than in Dobies so not sure if the Beauce would add anything to the Dobie. 

I think there is now a genetic marker in the Dobie for Cardio and there are tests that can be done on pups for vwd so I believe these genetic problems can be selected out of potential Dobie breeding stock. 

BTW, Vadim's dobie "Kaz" worked excellent as a pup and an adult. He could of gone all the way in FR if he had the proper training and not been injured. I believe if he was in France, he would of been a nice FRIII dog. There was a very nice Dobie at Orlandini's club about 8-10 years ago. He was a FRIII and invited to the Cup back in the 90s. I think due to illness or injury he didn't compete though. I did see this dog at Primo's club training and know first hand he was nice. 

:idea: Avatar, FRIII Beauceron is a super working dog and FRIII, but again the problem..where are the bitches close to the same quality to breed him too? Maybe I should join the Dobie group and formulate a plan! 

I keep trying with the working Beaucerons as "why do it easy, when you can do it hard" :grin:


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## Erynn Lucas (Dec 10, 2008)

*Re: Some cold hard facts*

First, there is NO genetic marker for DCM yet, but they are looking. There is a genetic marker for vWD and it can be safely selected against.

I think the problem is not whether or not there are good dogs out there, but good handlers. How many competent handlers are there for Dobermans? Not many. 

I am a new handler, but I do ok. When I wanted another dog to start, I had no problem finding a breeder that had good working dogs with pups. Yes, they are not cheap. But, my girl comes from two SchH3 titled parents that have BOTH V'd in protection under REAL judges. I don't see the problem in finding good working dogs (yes there are a ton of show shitters), the problem is that good working litters NEVER have enough good handlers to go with.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

IF there were Dobermann litters without the rediculous price tag, then there MIGHT be handlers for these dogs.

The problem comes in when new handlers like yourself assume that the dog you have could do the sport at the higher levels. It is not a bsh on you, as I am sure everyone will think, but you don't really figure out this dog thing on dog number one or two.

Sch is not the breed test for these dogs.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> IF there were Dobermann litters without the rediculous price tag, then there MIGHT be handlers for these dogs.
> 
> The problem comes in when new handlers like yourself assume that the dog you have could do the sport at the higher levels. It is not a bsh on you, as I am sure everyone will think, but you don't really figure out this dog thing on dog number one or two.
> 
> Sch is not the breed test for these dogs.


Jeff on a serious note, do you know of any recommended websites for a true rotti or dobi. Also where I'm not going to get bent over and kicked in the ass after buying the dog. We have considered getting a pup or youg dog to replace our old boy when it comes time. Reason I am asking is that I have read plenty of post with you and rottis in the same subject.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

*Re: Some cold hard facts*



Erynn Lucas said:


> First, there is NO genetic marker for DCM yet, but they are looking. There is a genetic marker for vWD and it can be safely selected against..


My mistake about the marker for cardio then...I guess..I'll ask again. A dobie friend of mine that trains hers in Schutzhund was talking about it and maybe I misunderstood. She said that a few years back one of the leading researchers was tragically killed in an accident (I believe plane). However, I thought she said this was a big set back, but now there was a marker for the specific DCM in Dobies, but not all kinds of DCM. There is a DCM that is in Beauces that is different and not common in the Beauce. 

I do see in Beaucerons that the community as a whole has breed blinders on (similar to kennel blindness) and say such things as "people don't know how to work them", "they are the best dogs and the most intelligent" using these excuses as why the dogs don't excel. I guess they mean their dog is "too smart to work"! ](*,)

In Beauces, very few people will even admit there is a need to improve temperament so how can anyone even have an intelligent conversation. They'll say it's important to standardize the height, head shape, improve the richness of the markings. First thing I'll say is these are the faults and lets see if it's possible to improve on this and that. Every dog and breed has faults to work on.

I guess where I'm going with this is that I think a lot of the alternate breeds are plagued by the same problems..excuses, excuses, excuses.. I think it's commendable and very difficult to work toward keeping the working bloodline dobie, bouv, beauce, rott from extinction.


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## Erynn Lucas (Dec 10, 2008)

It is expensive to go to the bigger trials as you probably know. So, you are right, not for me with my older girl. As for higher levels, I personally will probably only make it to the regionals under USA. They are close and relatively cheap to enter. With the new dog... who knows, we'll have to see how things go financially. But, for the majority of GSD owners out there, the same holds true. Most GSD handlers are club/regional level.

My contention is that there ARE good Dobermans out there, just in less numbers than other breeds. Jeff, come on out one weekend, there are some REALLY nice ones here in CA. There is one that is handled by a professional who will hopefully have a big year this year. Wendy Schmitt who was on the Mal world team last year has a bitch that she is playing with now (V'd in SchH3 C) and a pretty strong male that will start this year. He is only 1.5 years, so next year will be his year I think. I plan on going head to head with her this year at the regionals with my old girl and next year head to head with my puppy.

Look, you will find NO argument from me that the breed is in a sad state. Yes, they are VERY expensive to buy and to own. Added to that the health of the breed makes it so that some of them keel over at 6 years makes them even less attractive to some owners, so it really has to be a personal choice to own one. That said, if one was interested in pursuing sport with one, there are good ones to be had.

Debbie, I have heard that Boxers have the gene marked, but so far as I know, nothing for Dobermans. There is a HUGE study at Gueleph that is looking hard. DCM is THE main issue in the breed. They don't have the hip problems of the GSDs and vWD can be bred out. If you find out which one your friend was talking about, let me know as I would like to keep abreast of the latest in health news.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I have not looked seriously in years. I have no idea who is even trying. Whatever happens, I do hope you find a Rotti that you will enjoy.

My last few Rotts were never bred, and of the last few litters those pups never were bred. THere was a lack of interest from the owners, and lets face it, the show people have NO interest in a dog that is anything more than a moving stuffed toy.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Harry Keely said:


> ...We have considered getting a pup or youg dog to replace our old boy when it comes time. Reason I am asking is that I have read plenty of post with you and rottis in the same subject.


 Working Rottweilers... www.windywoodsk9.com


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

*Re: Some cold hard facts*



Debbie Skinner said:


> My mistake about the marker for cardio then...I guess..I'll ask again. A dobie friend of mine that trains hers in Schutzhund was talking about it and maybe I misunderstood. She said that a few years back one of the leading researchers was tragically killed in an accident (I believe plane). However, I thought she said this was a big set back, but now there was a marker for the specific DCM in Dobies, but not all kinds of DCM. There is a DCM that is in Beauces that is different and not common in the Beauce.
> 
> I do see in Beaucerons that the community as a whole has breed blinders on (similar to kennel blindness) and say such things as "people don't know how to work them", "they are the best dogs and the most intelligent" using these excuses as why the dogs don't excel. I guess they mean their dog is "too smart to work"! ](*,)
> 
> ...


Debbie, you've hit the nail on the head! The breed clubs for Beacerons, Briards, Dobermann, Giant Schnauzer, Rottweiler (to a point), Airedales ( in Switzerland they are are knocking off the ones with not enough drive) don't seem to be interested in producing dogs that could at least pass a Schutzhund trial. OK, the breed clubs have members and these should be forcing them to do something but, we all know how difficult this is. I'd have Briard tomorrow if I could find one like the one I had. I'd even swallow the not so good grips to have a dog that has the fight, the motivation, and the nochalance of my old Eric von Syrinx.

The day these breeds stopped competing with Malinois and GSD was the start of the downhill plunge!


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

*Re: Briard*

Hi Gillian

There was a Briard competing at the SchH I level at the DVG
Nationals in Denver last year. Probably one of the crowd favorites (mine too)





Gillian Schuler said:


> Debbie, you've hit the nail on the head! The breed clubs for Beacerons, Briards, Dobermann, Giant Schnauzer, Rottweiler (to a point), Airedales ( in Switzerland they are are knocking off the ones with not enough drive) don't seem to be interested in producing dogs that could at least pass a Schutzhund trial. OK, the breed clubs have members and these should be forcing them to do something but, we all know how difficult this is. I'd have Briard tomorrow if I could find one like the one I had. I'd even swallow the not so good grips to have a dog that has the fight, the motivation, and the nochalance of my old Eric von Syrinx.
> 
> The day these breeds stopped competing with Malinois and GSD was the start of the downhill plunge!


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Yep, I'll always love the Briards but couldn't find one to replace my old Eric!


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

*The real problem, and the not real solution.*

The solution to the endemic problem of genetic defects
in the canine races is not simply a matter of selective breeding
based on defects in individual dogs or genetic analysis.

The real problem is the ever tightening gene pool, and
the only solution is including new genetic resources, breaking
the closed stud book.

The Doberman is perhaps the breed in the worst shape, but
the others are not far behind.

Except the Malinois of course, for the obvious reeasons.

http://www.angelplace.net/dog/BraggArticle.htm

http://www.angelplace.net/Angel/MedicalScreening.htm


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

*Re: The real problem, and the not real solution.*

Jim,

I never bought into that open the stud books/hybrid vigor nonsense. The solution to health problems are reliable tests
AND sensible breeding decisions. NOT introducing different
health problems from another breed(s).






Jim Engel said:


> The solution to the endemic problem of genetic defects
> in the canine races is not simply a matter of selective breeding
> based on defects in individual dogs or genetic analysis.
> 
> ...


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## vadim shekhtman (Jan 27, 2008)

*Re: Some cold hard facts*



Jim Engel said:


> _"Start a new open registry, and breed in outside dogs,
> perhaps Beauceron, perhaps Rottweiler, perhaps even Malinois"_
> 
> 
> ...


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

*Re: Some cold hard facts*



vadim shekhtman said:


> Jim Engel said:
> 
> 
> > _"Start a new open registry, and breed in outside dogs,
> ...


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

*Re: The real problem, and the not real solution.*



Thomas Barriano said:


> Jim,
> 
> I never bought into that open the stud books/hybrid vigor nonsense. The solution to health problems are reliable tests
> AND sensible breeding decisions. NOT introducing different
> health problems from another breed(s).



Well Thomas, I must say you represent perfectly the
people behind what the Doberman is today.

Apparently clinging to ignorance and denial can be
of great comfort.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

*Re: Some cold hard facts*



vadim shekhtman said:


> Jim Engel said:
> 
> 
> > _"Start a new open registry, and breed in outside dogs,
> ...


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## vadim shekhtman (Jan 27, 2008)

*Re: Some cold hard facts*



Debbie Skinner said:


> vadim shekhtman said:
> 
> 
> > However, there are many Malinois that I have seen over the years that are as good as Avatar or Kaz. Hey, but to me it's something to aspire towards. If they can do it, maybe there is a way to fix the problems in our breeds. The malinois have done it by focusing on work vs type and breed purity. The performance quarter horse has done the same. The alternative working dog breeders can learn a lot from the malinois breeders all over the world.
> ...


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## Tamara McIntosh (Jul 14, 2009)

*Re: Some cold hard facts*

Jim,

you are very good at quitting. Quitting on your breed of choice and quitting on your sport of choice. However you never quite manage to quit talking.

Jim and Jeff,

No one is asking you to work dobes. In fact no one is asking you to even TALK about working dobes. All vadim stated was that he has upgraded his forum and FOR THOSE INTERESTED they could come and check it out. If you are not interested... do not go to the new forum.

If you do not like dobes, do not like to work dobes or think the breed is dead.. well good for you. Not everyone feels that way. SO just as we allow you to work your mals/dutchies/gsd in peace, please shut up about it and allow us to work our dobes in peace.

I find it quite ironic that someone whom went on the dobermann board and bashed the crap out of those who worked their dogs, those who didn't, those who tried to defend, women and schutzhund and pretty much ANYONE who said anything.... when I post vids of MY DOBE and MY CLUB working our dogs here on THIS forum, I get applause.

I personally HAVE a dobe that can work, and I could care less if anyone else has seen a hundred that can not. I am not training to prove anything, I simply have a dog I love and train a sport I love - and I think if more people did that we would all be much better off.

Tamara McIntosh


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Tamara, feel free to put me on ignore. I will talk about whatever the **** I want, whenever I feel like it. 

If I want to point out that you have a better chance of saving snail darters than you do the Dobermann, it is my opinion, and I will say so.

Your opinion means **** all to me. 

However, since I KNOW you are sucking on the knowledge tit that I provide, you will not put me on ignore. However, I am asking you to do so.

This way you can imagine that your dog is something other than the shitter it really is. Really. Put me on ignore.

If I could make it so you wouldn't be able to read what I write, I would.


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## Tamara McIntosh (Jul 14, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Put me on ignore..


How do I set up the ignore thing???

Tamara McIntosh


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

*Re: The real problem, and the not real solution.*



Jim Engel said:


> Well Thomas, I must say you represent perfectly the
> people behind what the Doberman is today.
> 
> Apparently clinging to ignorance and denial can be
> of great comfort.


Jim,

Don't be silly. Just because you have a website that doesn't make you an expert in all breeds. The Dobermann today is as successful as most of the other working breeds. The health problems are/were caused by irresponsible breeding.
The cure is responsible breeding, accurate health tests and breeding for temperament instead of looks. Fix your own breed before you start giving advise on how to fix mine (and everyone elses).

I personally have had more health problems (hips, elbows and undescended testicle) with my GSD's then with any of my Dobermanns.

The apparent lack of health problems in the Malinois is largely due (IMHO) to their lack of popularity as a pet. Now that they are getting more popular, you'll start to see health problems there too :-(


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

A good working Doberman would be nice, tell me where I can buy one. The PA kennels? Sport venues? In the 70's there were some nasty dogs and very defensive. Watered down, larger than life, and fear biters are what we see. Give me 5...no just 3 solid US kennels that I can look at for my 2010 pup!!!


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Howard Gaines III said:


> A good working Doberman would be nice, tell me where I can buy one. The PA kennels? Sport venues? In the 70's there were some nasty dogs and very defensive. Watered down, larger than life, and fear biters are what we see. Give me 5...no just 3 solid US kennels that I can look at for my 2010 pup!!!


I be interested in that info to and maybe a few rotti ones as well, thanks Howard for asking, I will jump on the bad wagon on this one and openly admit to doing so.=D>


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## vadim shekhtman (Jan 27, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> A good working Doberman would be nice, tell me where I can buy one. The PA kennels? Sport venues? In the 70's there were some nasty dogs and very defensive. Watered down, larger than life, and fear biters are what we see. Give me 5...no just 3 solid US kennels that I can look at for my 2010 pup!!!


You would get a great working dog from any of the 3 below. There are others, not all have websites. Most don't breed very often so get on the list early.

http://www.landgrafk9.com/
http://wustensturm.blogspot.com/
http://www.vomzenhof.com


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## Erynn Lucas (Dec 10, 2008)

I'll add vom Kondorstrand. No website, but you can contact Way Out West (USA club) or Wild West Dogsport (DVG) for contact info.

Here is a nice working Doberman, a bitch even. Doesn't look like a fear biter to me...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLFci-ddYqM


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

We have different definitions for sure.

To me that looks like when they take one of the small terrier breeds and teach it to go through the motions.

I think this is the fundamental difference that needs to be addressed. You say it is a nice performance, and I say that is all it is, is a performance.

My dirty socks have the same amount of presence as that helper.

It just all adds up to disgust, and I don't even know why I bother with this shit. I should just let this die it's quiet miserable death.


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## James Lechernich (Oct 20, 2009)

Erynn Lucas said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLFci-ddYqM


I'd love to know the name of the background song! =D>


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

James Lechernich said:


> I'd love to know the name of the background song! =D>


I would as well, it was very nice. I tried to figure it out but no luck #-o


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## Virginia Rulli (Jan 26, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> We have different definitions for sure.
> 
> My dirty socks have the same amount of presence as that helper.
> 
> It just all adds up to disgust, and I don't even know why I bother with this shit. I should just let this die it's quiet miserable death.


WOW! you need to get some lovin Jeff O 
Don't mean to get too personal, but something else must be dying a slow miserable death if you know what I mean! 

All in good humor right?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

*Re: Background Music*



Nicole Stark said:


> I would as well, it was very nice. I tried to figure it out but no luck #-o


Hi Nicole

It helps if you know the guy who posted the video and can just ask him 



The artists are Jay Ungar and Molly Mason on "The Lover's Waltz" Album. The cut is Misty Dawn Medley of Misty Molly/FoxyMary/MyDarling Asleep.

I loved the music myself


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: WOW! you need to get some lovin Jeff O 

So you disagree ?? Nice contribution. To me it was like watching flyball. Kinda cool, but of no substance.

I do think that you should train the dog you have, but this was good training, and sub par dog.

People can flip up and down about that, but at least I can say it out loud. Maybe that should be the first step.


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## James Lechernich (Oct 20, 2009)

*Re: Background Music*



Thomas Barriano said:


> Hi Nicole
> 
> It helps if you know the guy who posted the video and can just ask him
> 
> ...


Thank You!!! $10.99 on amazon. \\/


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Most don't breed very often so get on the list early.

This would be a problem as well if you were so inclined to be improving the breed.

This has been going on as long as I can remember. A lot of my baggage with the Dobermann comes from the past. There were a few that I worked as a kid that were phenominal dogs. 

Sch was REALLY small, and these dogs did PP, and OB, and SHOW. LOL

I really enjoyed working these dogs, and had a lot of bruises and bumps from them, as they were as big as I was at the time. Some of them were a bit dangerous. A few of them were what I still consider to be GREAT dogs.

I do not see a way with few litters, and high prices to do much of anything with the breed. However, how does this logistical problem get solved ?? 

Probably not by taking it out on me, I am just saying out loud what most do not. Better to be the nice guy all the time ??


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff,

Your arguments would be more valid if everyone agreed with your claim that the Dobermann breed is in trouble.

I don't want the Dobermann to be the new Volkshund. 
There are lots of good working Dobermanns available to those that want them. I like working with alternate breeds. I don't want to have a dog like everyone else on the trial field.

I don't equate popularity with improving a breed.

I compare my working Dobermann with other working Dobermanns NOT with every BYB or Show Doberman Pinscher.

Everyone that says the Dobermann isn't competitive for Protection sports.....What ever you say, don't get one
don't compete with one PLEASE leave the Dobermann alone




Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Most don't breed very often so get on the list early.
> 
> This would be a problem as well if you were so inclined to be improving the breed.
> 
> ...


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> We have different definitions for sure.
> 
> To me that looks like when they take one of the small terrier breeds and teach it to go through the motions.
> 
> ...


I have to agree 100%, there is no substance to this dog, no oomph...let's call a spade a spade...shall we?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Your arguments would be more valid if everyone agreed with your claim that the Dobermann breed is in trouble.

You honestly think that the breed is ok ??


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Your arguments would be more valid if everyone agreed with your claim that the Dobermann breed is in trouble.
> 
> You honestly think that the breed is ok ??


YES,

My breed is the Dobermann bred to DV standards and to DV requirements (ZTP and SchH I on both parents to breed)
Puppies from titled parents.

MY breed isn't the Doberman Pinscher or every Showline POS or BYB "king" Doberman Pinscher.


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## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

I thought the same as jeff about the rott until we got a new pup in the group
his defense is insane, good grip, a lot of fight even a little handler aggression attitude, and not fat or lazy...LOL
he is young tho so we will see about his nerve
im not saying he is the one just that you can be surprised once in a while by a breed you thought was gone


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

His defense is insane ?? handler aggression ??

Let me say for the record, that I do not want to see anything like that. That is not what I want to see in a dog at all, especially not a Rott.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I am putting some thought into a working lines Rottie when my current Rottweiler female dies (she's 10 and in good health except for her end stage arthritis in her hips and elbows). I don't need a manstopper, but an moderately sized female around 75-80ish lbs as a complementary deterrent to my male Malinois would be nice. Good solid structure (hip and elbow rads from the parents would be mandatory) and biddable temperament desired. Not sure where I'll end up after school, so not sure what we can work the dogs on, as my Malinois is just dying for a suit sport, I'm sure. What Rotties are doing the suit sports?


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## Amy Swaby (Jul 16, 2008)

*Re: The real problem, and the not real solution.*



Thomas Barriano said:


> Jim,
> 
> I never bought into that open the stud books/hybrid vigor nonsense. The solution to health problems are reliable tests
> AND sensible breeding decisions. NOT introducing different
> health problems from another breed(s).


Eh I disagree, they fixed Dalmations urine problems rather quickly by outcrossing, just snobs prevented these dogs from being allowed into the registry.

http://www.luadalmatians.com/

The only thing that happened to those dalmatians from outcrossing was a problem fixed. Not saying it will fix all problems but sometimes it really IS the solution to a problem.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

They didn't "fix" the problem, they just covered it up with some dirt so to speak.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

*Re: The real problem, and the not real solution.*



Amy Swaby said:


> Eh I disagree, they fixed Dalmations urine problems rather quickly by outcrossing, just snobs prevented these dogs from being allowed into the registry.
> 
> http://www.luadalmatians.com/
> 
> The only thing that happened to those dalmatians from outcrossing was a problem fixed. Not saying it will fix all problems but sometimes it really IS the solution to a problem.


Hi Amy

One Scientist/Vet "claims" to have fixed the problem.
That isn't proof unless it has been peer reviewed.
It's a moot point anyway, since the Dalmatian stud books weren't open, NONE of the progeny can be register 

Even IF what the guy claims is true (he's cured the urinary problem) what other other problems, (brought in from the out cross breed) will show up in the future?


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Mike Lauer said:


> I thought the same as jeff about the rott until we got a new pup in the group
> his defense is insane, good grip, a lot of fight even a little handler aggression attitude, and not fat or lazy...LOL
> he is young tho so we will see about his nerve
> im not saying he is the one just that you can be surprised once in a while by a breed you thought was gone


Is this Earl's dog?


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

What makes the breed bad is like with all breeds, when backyard kennels/need some bucks folk slap two together, you end up with junk. Think not? Look in several papers and call the ads. Ask about titles, pedigrees, awards, working backgrounds, genetics...get down with the working lingo, they don't have a clue!!!

"Well our dawgs is big boned beauties, full blooded (like they'll sell one with a pint less), man stoppers." And what about the whites in every breed, white Dobies, white Shepherds?! If bad genetics is bred often enough, you end up with squirrels and not K-9s. This is the foundation for bad breeds and breeding.

Then if you throw the other element into the mix, you get the Designer Dog people and their high priced crap! Go to the SPCA and get the same thing for $80.00 or their fee! Dobermans have had a bad label since the late 70's or mid 80's. I can't remember how many were from working lines, my bet is NONE!


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## dario cabrera (May 12, 2008)

Since this is a topic about the doberman, I had stumbled into a site awhile back international dogschool k9. The guy is a great sch/ipo trainer and is very much into doberman and a few other breeds not known much for work these days. Plenty of nice working vids and info, figured id throw it out there to check out.


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