# In terms of being offended.



## James Downey

So, First I am not against hunters. So I am not bashing anyones past time. I am trying to get the thinking of why we sensor the stuff we censor and the stuff we do not.


So it's a tradition in Coast Guard for Rescue Swimmer shops to make a Christmas card and send them to one another. Detroit's this year was a parody on the boys in Kodiak who are featured in "Coast Guard Alaska" Some of those boys I trained through thier Airmen canidate program so they ar friends of mine. The card was poking fun at them.

But a few years ago, a swimmer shop got a really bad idea and went to the local strip club, and got thier picture taken on the stage with the pole while the real strippers whom were clothed handed them dollar bills. They got in trouble for it being offensive. Now all Christmas cards have to have command approval...which is a good idea. 

This year the boys in Sitka Alaska sent out a card with each one of them posing with a freshly killed animal, and thier rifle. Blood and all. 

Not one thing was said about it.

So it got me thinking about what our society finds offensive. I agree that strippers on a Military Christmas card is not the kind of image we should be sending out..We have to be professional.

But in the greater aspect of life. Killing something, glorifing the action is allowed to be shown without censorship on every type of media there is. A Woman or Man's naked body cannot be. Now, I am not talking about raunchy sex scenes. I am simply talking about the image of the naked body. I find the dead animals to be mildly at best offensive. And take zero offense to the viewing of the naked body. Any takes on this type of thinking....seriously. I also think that teaching our children the body is something taboo has to cause some irrational thinking about being nude.


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## James Downey

Also Another thing is Women who breast feed in public. Now to conform with society I have seen the majority of women cover them selves with a blanket to have some grace. I have seen people at resturants or the like get very upset the women is doing this. For me, It's just dinner time for a young one. But for other people the correlate it with some sexual perversion.


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## David Frost

censorship, in my eyes is government. Take this board for example. If the owner of this board said he would not permit the use of the word "bitch", that's not censorship, it's a rule. It isn't a right to be here, there are no laws saying you must be allowed to be a member. It's your choice and to remain, you must abide by the rules. 


When the government uses censorship, whether we agree or not, it's intended to protect the general population. Pornogrophy isn't illigal. Using 10 year olds as the subject is. To me it breaks down to the old saying; Using a feather is kinky - using the whole chicken is perverted. I guess it's all in the eye of the beholder. 

DFrost


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## James Downey

David Frost said:


> censorship, in my eyes is government. Take this board for example. If the owner of this board said he would not permit the use of the word "bitch", that's not censorship, it's a rule. It isn't a right to be here, there are no laws saying you must be allowed to be a member. It's your choice and to remain, you must abide by the rules.
> 
> 
> When the government uses censorship, whether we agree or not, it's intended to protect the general population. Pornogrophy isn't illigal. Using 10 year olds as the subject is. To me it breaks down to the old saying; Using a feather is kinky - using the whole chicken is perverted. I guess it's all in the eye of the beholder.
> 
> DFrost


David,

Here's a stat for youg , Children that watch regular T.V. can witness 14,000 simulated human deaths by the time they are twelvr. On those same channels they will never see a naked person. Not sex...They may see the insinuation of sex ( bodies going up and down under blankets). 

I think defintion of Censorship vs. Rule is symantics. But on a privatley owned entity the ower reserves the right to censorship. My point was not if censorship in and of itself was wrong. Or who can do it. but rather what we find taboo as a society.


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## Lisa Brazeau

David Frost said:


> To me it breaks down to the old saying; Using a feather is kinky - using the whole chicken is perverted. I guess it's all in the eye of the beholder.


I don't know how old that saying is.... I've never heard it. But it's friggen HILARIOUS! Thanks David. 

Hmmmm... 

A. Can't print pictures of the mortally wounded in combat.
B. We have video games that will splat brains on the screen... in 3-d. 
Doesn't really pass the chicken test in my view.


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## Maren Bell Jones

As a Christian, I'm deeply offended by nudity in the human form. Except if it's His Holiness Tim Tebow. Then it's sanctioned by God. O


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## Howard Gaines III

David Frost said:


> Using a feather is kinky - using the whole chicken is perverted. I guess it's all in the eye of the beholder. DFrost


 Say, you folks know how to get some mileage out of an old bird!:wink:
And to think making soup was the order of the day..............


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## Bob Scott

Howard Gaines III said:


> Say, you folks know how to get some mileage out of an old bird!:wink:
> And to think making soup was the order of the day..............



Well, how do you tenderize your chicken for chicken noodle soup? :twisted:


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## susan tuck

James Downey said:


> David,
> 
> Here's a stat for youg , Children that watch regular T.V. can witness 14,000 simulated human deaths by the time they are twelvr. On those same channels they will never see a naked person. Not sex...They may see the insinuation of sex ( bodies going up and down under blankets).
> 
> I think defintion of Censorship vs. Rule is symantics. But on a privatley owned entity the ower reserves the right to censorship. My point was not if censorship in and of itself was wrong. Or who can do it. but rather what we find taboo as a society.


I agree, I think it's ironic that so much violence is acceptable but a naked body is taboo.


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## David Frost

susan tuck said:


> I agree, I think it's ironic that so much violence is acceptable but a naked body is taboo.


When did it become a law that parents could monitor what children watch, what games they could play, etc, etc, etc. Censorship is government. Me choosing not to watch something or not allowing my children is personal. It has nothing to do with semantics.

DFrost


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## Daniel Lybbert

I like to see dead animals. Especially if they are big trophies. I also like to see naked women but only if they are HOT.


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## James Downey

Daniel Lybbert said:


> I like to see dead animals. Especially if they are big trophies. I also like to see naked women but only if they are HOT.


 
Ahh. Daniel your one of those guys with "standards". Think about that for a moment, what do standards accomplish?

they accomplish one thing. They prevent you from getting laid. Nothing more, nothing less. Standards is just some ego fabricated criteria.

The definition of Standard is: The ability to self-cock block.

Just Kidding.


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## vicki dickey

Why would anyone like to look at dead animals? I prefer to see life. 
Do hunters ever give thought that the animal they killed valued it's life-wanted to live much like the hunter wants to live another day?
My daughter's boyfriend was a hunter-which is fine, but he took it to the extreme. She realized his obsession and kicked him out. She was tired of deer and turkeys hanging dead in her horse barn. I imagine he liked to see animals dead as well. Dont know what that says about a person.
And dont lecture me on hunting-I know all about it-my dad and brothers are hunters but they only shoot what they will eat. They dont kill just to kill-a big difference.

The human body nude can be a thing of beauty.


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## James Downey

I do not want to see dead animals either. In fact I do not want to see anything dead. but I get Death is a part of life so death it self does not offend me. 

Killing animals for sport, and hanging the on a wall as a ornament does offend me. Killing an animal for food is another thing. It's not offensive but it's not something I feel we should enjoy having to do. 

And beyond the body being beautiful. which it can be.I think it's one of those silly weird things we engrained in our society...seriously it's just parts. 

I have small children. We do not let them watch sexually scenes on the t.v. but we do not shield thier eyes from just the sight of a naked body either.

Now, If you think about it. We are desensitized to killing animals, and hyper sensitive to what our own bodies look like. It just seems backwards to me.

I mean If I had to associate the two to sick thinking. Glorifying killing a living creature is much closer to thinking that is derranged than is simply not covering your body up.

Killing something for sport, each and everytime seems to be more along the lines of a twisted thinking. Killing something and showing it off...That's twisted.
But showing the human body can at times be put into twisted sexual thinking....but not always. someone walking from the shower to the bedroom naked, is much different than someone breaking in disrobing and standing at the foot of a bed. But thier is no wiggle room went to comes to ending somethings life.


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## David Frost

Sometimes it's hard to understand how some people think. One of the reasons I like living where I do, I don't have to try. I do see a pattern however, killing animals offend some unless it's to eat, wear, etc. 

I used to be an avid hunter, and while I did eat what I killed, it wasn't the reason I hunted. Events in my life have changed my desire to hunt, but I certainly don't begrudge those that like to do it. 

DFrost


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## Don Turnipseed

I eat em and show em off. Some like to have dog titles to hang on the wall These are my dog titles. Same difference. How much room you have can be a problem.


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## James Downey

Don Turnipseed said:


> I eat em and show em off. Some like to have dog titles to hang on the wall These are my dog titles. Same difference. How much room you have can be a problem.


 
I know, it's the same at my house excpet it's full of playboy centerfolds. And yet in todays world, Don is normal, and I am the ****ed up one.


But seriously. Those pics I do find disturbing...but I do understand that's my morality. And Don AKA sweet cheeks is entitled to his own...It's his right as an American to hang whatever he wish on his walls inside his own home. For me to try and convince Don those are offensive, would be a waste of time. he's not going to listen to me. and I think Where people who have ethical issues with things like this go wrong is they get on a high horse to save the spotted owl and start screaming with such obnoxiousness no one is willing to listen. They have actually done the opposite of what they claim they would like to accomplish. But again, I think those people are not truely driven by animal rights...they have an addiction to be the savior of the animals. They want to do noble so bad it becomes a very terrible mental illness....So, Don Lock and Load, throw up on the wall. I think more important than me trying to convert the world to my ethics is personal freedom.


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## Daniel Lybbert

Sweet Don your the man!!!!
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f5/daniellybbert/cid_55.jpg
handing it down a generation
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f5/daniellybbert/gopherhunt2009059.jpg
I really hope this disturbs you
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f5/daniellybbert/gophers002.jpg


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## Daniel Lybbert

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f5/daniellybbert/sask004.jpg

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f5/daniellybbert/2007.jpg

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f5/daniellybbert/2013.jpg


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## Brian McQuain

Some nice tags filled there Daniel. Did you like the bear meat? I had it once, tasted like garbage.


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## Nicole Stark

Brian McQuain said:


> Some nice tags filled there Daniel. Did you like the bear meat? I had it once, tasted like garbage.


Was it a spring or fall bear?


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## Brian McQuain

Nicole Stark said:


> Was it a spring or fall bear?


 
Fall...couple of months ago


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## Nicole Stark

Brian McQuain said:


> Fall...couple of months ago


I thought that might be the case. I don't know this to be true first hand but I've heard fall bear is terrible (fish, garbage, and shit, are typical descriptives used). If you get a chance and want to try it again try a spring bear.


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## James Downey

Daniel, you do not have to hope I am disgusted. since I have already stated that I find glorifying things you killed offensive. I also stated under Don's Picture that Don had the right to not have me intrude on his personal beliefs and press my ethics upon him. I do have the right to state my Ethical beliefs, But I believe these are personal and you have the right to yours. As I said, personal freedom from harrassment to believe as I do is more important than to what I find offensive. I am after all an adult and capable of dealing with these as such.

Now on the other hand I do find it quite disrespectful when I approacha sensitive subjects like this with an additude that grants everyone else the basic human respect they deserve in terms of thier ethics and the reciever of the message pulls a total douch bag move by delibrating posting a picture of dissected animals with no other motivation but to offend me. Even with a message that states this is the pictures sole purpose. 

Since you wasted some of your hope on that, the least I could do is let you know you succeed I was completely put off by that picture. ****ing asshole.

But again, I am talking with guy who thinks great FR kennels are deicided by how well the dog outs. Shit....If I am buying a dog. The only thing I care about is that dog best make me smile when I throw a ball, and pull out a sleeve. You take the ones that out nice, I will take the ones that bite.


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## Nicole Stark

That really bothered you?


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## James Downey

Tore up squirells? Not so much the sight of them. But the reasons for display defintly offend me since he posted him just to try to get a rise out of him....they allow him to raise children. And he aint nothing but a child himself. You know the whole game trophy thing, it's mildly offensive to me. I just thing killing something should not be celebrated, that animals life was worth something....now it's an ornament. but I do qualify these things with that they are my personal beliefs and I am not trying to be an asshole. people get all butt hurt about it and generally respond with juvenille responses by posting exactly what I said I found offenseive. But dog people is generally a population of assholes anyway. So I don't wonder why I get fleas when I lay with the dogs.


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## Nicole Stark

Ok, I just wanted to be sure I didn't misread your intent. Offensive isn't something that I readily recognize as a emotion so I'm never really sure when people are serious about being offended. Maybe that's because I don't seem to have much of a filter concerning what I think or feel, it just comes out exactly the way I think or feel at that particular time. I'm sure it's just some form of mental retardation that makes me that way. I certainly could be more sensitive or moderated in how I conduct myself. Anyway, duly noted.


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## James Downey

Nicole Stark said:


> Ok, I just wanted to be sure I didn't misread your intent. Offensive isn't something that I readily recognize as a emotion so I'm never really sure when people are serious about being offended. Maybe that's because I don't seem to have much of a filter concerning what I think or feel, it just comes out exactly the way I think or feel at that particular time. I'm sure it's just some form of mental retardation that makes me that way. I certainly could be more sensitive or moderated in how I conduct myself. Anyway, duly noted.


 
I am not sensitive about it. Like I said in my post to daniel I am an adult and can conduct myswelf that way. I think a lot of people get offened than make huge displays as if they are they are the only human being ever to see or hear something they find distasteful. Another part of me, Also tells me that going on a rampage is also pretty obnoxious.


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## Nicole Stark

James Downey said:


> And I found more offensive was the situation that Don put his dogs in. I cannot believe a man who claims he loves his dogs, would take an untrained dog, I mean our dogs start to see the scenrios those dogs saw at over a year old, they have at minium a years worth of experience before they see something like that. And Don, did not know Dave from a whole in the ground. Stupid. beyond stupid. Down right disrespectful to the dogs.Now I kept this all to myself bacuase I believe it's non of my buisness. But it was at that moment. I realized Don does not dick shit about dogs.


Well, you probably can blame me for that I suppose since I did lay out a portion (no idea how much of the expenses were covered by the $600 I sent Dave) but to be honest with you I never considered the dogs either.

I trusted that Dave and Ariel would go out there and handle the task appropriately, which I feel they both did. Previous to committing to giving my financial support to assist in setting this in motion I did inquire about Dave's qualifications and was more than satisfied with the endorsement I received.

I'm not defending Don but I do understand why he was inclined to believe there would be a different outcome.


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## James Downey

It's really none of my buisness what Don does with his dogs. But if I am being asked. They are Don's dogs he is responsible for them, no one else is. What happened is on him no one else.


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## Ariel Peldunas

Just for the record, because it wasn't shown on the video ....as soon as it was clear (to Don - I think Dave and I were pretty sure of the outcome as soon as we arrived) that the dogs weren't going to defend Don, Dave immediately switched gears and tried to reassure the dogs. He even asked Don for some cheese to help the dogs recover ...although neither had much socialization to begin with so they really weren't very interested in interacting with us anyway.

After the testing, we spent the afternoon hanging out, talking to Don about what we do and testing the young dogs to see if they had drive for a rag (I don't dare call it prey drive when referring to Don's dogs for fear that the whole argument will begin again). He actually seemed receptive and interested in the differences in our discipline vs. hunting dogs ....but it didn't take long for old Don to emerge. 

Anyway, didn't want to give the impression we just went out there to heartlessly terrorize his dogs. We actually hoped to educate him some about what we do and why it's different and why you can't expect an untrained dog to protect.


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## vicki dickey

Wow you great men. You can shoot an animal with a gun.WOW You hunt it down and the odds are so even -you have a gun and the deer/squirrel/rabbit has ........ wait what do they have? 
And this makes you so proud? This makes you the great hunter -the big man? 
Then you stuff the dead animal and gloat over it on your wall? 
Yeah guys you are the man.


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## susan tuck

I'm a meat eater, love it, eat it every day. Sometimes I think about the life of a steer destined for my table. I think it's probably a pretty shitty, short life. 

Then I think about the animals on trophy hunters walls. In my mind at least, right up to their last hours on earth, those animals were living a natural life, probably a much better life than the factory farmed animals destined for my table. 

So I ask myself which I'd rather be, which has the better quality of life, and I think I'd rather be that animal who's head ends up on someone's wall - even Don's wall!!!!!

I have respect for all hunters (except of course, those assholes who participate in chicken shit canned hunts, poachers, and rich sons of bitches who go to impoverished countries & grease the palms of officials so they can kill endangered species). I think hunters do more for animal conservation than most of the rest of society, if for no other reason than to protect their resource, though obviously they also have a great love and respect for animals, probably more than most, actually.


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## Brian McQuain

vicki dickey said:


> Wow you great men. You can shoot an animal with a gun.WOW You hunt it down and the odds are so even -you have a gun and the deer/squirrel/rabbit has ........ wait what do they have?
> And this makes you so proud? This makes you the great hunter -the big man?
> Then you stuff the dead animal and gloat over it on your wall?
> Yeah guys you are the man.


LMAO! Riiight Vicki. Thats what its all about.

Susan, you nailed it. A TON of my money goes into conservation and preservation every year, whether even I draw a tag, or fill a tag.


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## Brian McQuain

I bet the garden behind my house would horrify you too, Vicki. I plant and nurture various fruits and veggies (for many of the same reasons I hunt), only to butcher them and eat what they produced. Poor plants. Never had a chance. They can't even move.


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## Thomas Barriano

I was offended by the pictures too. This is a Working DOG Forum.
If I wanted to see pictures of dead animals I would be on a hunting forum. My opinions on hunting are irrelevant since this is a Working DOG Forum.
I can't think of any legitimate reason for posting the pictures except to antagonize another poster.


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## vicki dickey

Did I strike a nerve Brian for you to post twice in a row?
Like I said in a previous post I understand hunting but there are some men out there that take it to the extreme. I also think posting the pictures of the dead animals on here were in poor taste.
I also wonder about teaching kids to hunt so early in life and to be proud of killing an animal is such a good idea? 
Life is precious to humans and animals. Taking the life of anything shouldnt be done for fun or sport.


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## susan tuck

Thomas Barriano said:


> I was offended by the pictures too. This is a Working DOG Forum.
> If I wanted to see pictures of dead animals I would be on a hunting forum. My opinions on hunting are irrelevant since this is a Working DOG Forum.
> I can't think of any legitimate reason for posting the pictures except to antagonize another poster.


Thomas I Agree 100%, those pictures were completely unnecessary.


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## susan tuck

vicki dickey said:


> Did I strike a nerve Brian for you to post twice in a row?
> Like I said in a previous post I understand hunting but there are some men out there that take it to the extreme. I also think posting the pictures of the dead animals on here were in poor taste.
> I also wonder about teaching kids to hunt so early in life and to be proud of killing an animal is such a good idea?
> Life is precious to humans and animals. Taking the life of anything shouldnt be done for fun or sport.


 
Vicki then don't teach it to YOUR children. If you don't want to hunt then DON'T. It's not for you, WE GET IT. I don't hunt either, but I've got to say, your posts about hunters on this thread offend me as much as the pictures of dead animals. Unless you AND all your animals are vegans, casting sarcastic aspersions at hunters is hypocritical. Rest assured, the animals destined for your table have a hard knock life, worse than that of the animals who's heads and pelts decorate someone's wall.


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## Connie Sutherland

On this board, hunting pictures like those are posted via a link with an brief explanation in the post of what the pictures are, and they are based on a _working-dog discussion_, here: http://www.WorkingDogForum.com/vBulletin/f34/


Thank you.


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## Brian McQuain

vicki dickey said:


> Did I strike a nerve Brian for you to post twice in a row?
> Like I said in a previous post I understand hunting but there are some men out there that take it to the extreme. I also think posting the pictures of the dead animals on here were in poor taste.
> I also wonder about teaching kids to hunt so early in life and to be proud of killing an animal is such a good idea?
> Life is precious to humans and animals. Taking the life of anything shouldnt be done for fun or sport.


 
No nerve struck. Your ridiculous post made me laugh, and I felt like being a brat. :-D


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## Connie Sutherland

susan tuck said:


> Sometimes I think about the life of a steer destined for my table. I think it's probably a pretty shitty, short life.
> 
> Then I think about the animals on trophy hunters walls. In my mind at least, right up to their last hours on earth, those animals were living a natural life, probably a much better life than the factory farmed animals destined for my table.



I pretty much agree. Since the topic is "being offended," what kind of offends me is the aversion of some meat-eaters to seeing dead animals unless they are cleanly packaged in neat parts on a white supermarket tray covered with plastic wrap. 

It's JMO, but if I ate meat it would be with a clear understanding of how that meat got to my plate. That's at least half of why I don't -- because I don't hunt and can't afford humanely-raised and -slaughtered meat. 

(I do pay for it for my dogs, of course; they need a meat diet.)


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## Harry Keely

James the way I see it the USCG shouldnt really say anything when they as well as the other branches use pin up girls ( in which scream sex ) in a non sort of way, in saying that i am not offended by pin up girls, just making a point.




























These are just a few of the examples out there for this particular branch. Sorry if anyone offended, just think its a little ironic at times.


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## Daniel Lybbert

It was a fall bear and it makes great hams. Not to much bacon and the rest is ok. Not really my favorite meat. The bears here dont really get into garbage and the such. They eat lots of berries.
And I think its important to teach children at a young age to hunt. They learn gun control responsibilty and where their food comes from. As for the "squirrels" they are gophers. They destroy pasture land and are here by the thousands. Are you saying you shouldnt kill rats? Gopher shooting is the next best thing to sex.


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## vicki dickey

I know what you mean Brian. I felt the same.


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## mike suttle

This is a working dog forum.....this is a working dog doing her job. And my son is learning about how dogs work at the same time.


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## Jeremy Wall

@ Mike...
Maybe I should post the bear hunt with hounds video...liable to get death threats Huh?


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## kerry engels

susan tuck said:


> I'm a meat eater, love it, eat it every day. Sometimes I think about the life of a steer destined for my table. I think it's probably a pretty shitty, short life.
> 
> Then I think about the animals on trophy hunters walls. In my mind at least, right up to their last hours on earth, those animals were living a natural life, probably a much better life than the factory farmed animals destined for my table.
> 
> So I ask myself which I'd rather be, which has the better quality of life, and I think I'd rather be that animal who's head ends up on someone's wall - even Don's wall!!!!!
> 
> I have respect for all hunters (except of course, those assholes who participate in chicken shit canned hunts, poachers, and rich sons of bitches who go to impoverished countries & grease the palms of officials so they can kill endangered species). I think hunters do more for animal conservation than most of the rest of society, if for no other reason than to protect their resource, though obviously they also have a great love and respect for animals, probably more than most, actually.


I could not agree more.:smile:


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## Brian McQuain

mike suttle said:


> This is a working dog forum.....this is a working dog doing her job. And my son is learning about how dogs work at the same time.


 
I couldnt tell what the picture was until I expanded it, and I wasnt expecting that...I lol'd.


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## Don Turnipseed

This is really a hypocrytical thread since Sweet Cheeks started it. He is trying to express his feelings on his feminine side, yet every time he posts after I post, his whole intent to to be offensive. Falls way short but he tries as do a good number of others that want to tell me how little I know about dogs. Considering the source, it is imposible to take these folks serious as I watch their vids playing tug in the house, dogs bounding over the furniture as they say some dogs just have to much prey drive to relax in the house......and they keep telling me they are hot shot trainers and I never trained a dog. I am really supposed to take Many of you seriously.

Sweet Cheeks feels for what I put my dogs through with Ariel and Dave. Good god, do you think people acting lijke they have lost it will scar them for life or something. I can't help but wonder what kind of dogs you are used to working with.

Ariel keep jumping in and saying the dogs were standoffish like she is making a profound statement. No, the dogs don't jump all over you but it is comon knowledge they are never around people. Little tid bit for Ariels tool box before she makes a bigger fool out of herself in her vast understanding. The dogs are not supposed to be overly friendly, you flatlanders have a real tendency to pick them up and steal them if you find them roaming the mountains. Oh, poor baby is lost. Just being goody goody and saving a dog in your mind, stealing them in mine. The dogs don't have to have a handler standing with them to be considerd trained. They know their job and they are out doing it. The biggest danger to thm isn't wildlfe when they are hunting, it is flatlanders.


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## Ariel Peldunas

Don Turnipseed said:


> Ariel keep jumping in and saying the dogs were standoffish like she is making a profound statement. No, the dogs don't jump all over you but it is comon knowledge they are never around people. Little tid bit for Ariels tool box before she makes a bigger fool out of herself in her vast understanding. The dogs are not supposed to be overly friendly, you flatlanders have a real tendency to pick them up and steal them if you find them roaming the mountains. Oh, poor baby is lost. Just being goody goody and saving a dog in your mind, stealing them in mine. The dogs don't have to have a handler standing with them to be considerd trained. They know their job and they are out doing it. The biggest danger to thm isn't wildlfe when they are hunting, it is flatlanders.


Not trying to be profound, Don. Just being informative for those who weren't there. Nothing wrong with a standoffish dog. However, standoffish and lacking confidence does not equal a dog that will be naturally protective. Naturally suspicious, perhaps. But some amount of confidence around people is necessary in protection work ...even if it's confident aggression. Your dogs trying to piss on people when their backs are turned and then ducking away when approached did not show me the picture of a dog that would stand his ground when threatened ...which is why I expected the test to go as it did from when I walked in the gate. 

As long as you and your dogs are on the same page as far as what their job is, I don't think anyone would argue with you or give you a hard time. But you keep interjecting your "expertise" in matters in which you have no experience and clearly your dogs are not cut out for. That's the reason no one takes you serious and this topics keeps getting revisited. If you'd just admit that your out of your element when talking about protection dogs, I think people would lay off ...although, I suspect you like the neverending debate.


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## Don Turnipseed

Make up you mind Ariel. Originally you said the dogs were suspicious and you didn't like that. Now, they are standoffish and it may be ok if they were suspicious instead.


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## Guest

Don Turnipseed said:


> Make up you mind Ariel. Originally you said the dogs were suspicious and you didn't like that. Now, they are standoffish and it may be ok if they were suspicious instead.


 
she's trying to be nice...


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## Thomas Barriano

Jody Butler said:


> she's trying to be nice...


That was Ariel and Daves' first mistake :-(


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## Ariel Peldunas

Don Turnipseed said:


> Make up you mind Ariel. Originally you said the dogs were suspicious and you didn't like that. Now, they are standoffish and it may be ok if they were suspicious instead.


Don, it's no wonder you can't even read your own dogs. It seems you have a tough enough time mastering the English language. Let me break it down for you. Try to keep up.

What I said was:

1. Your dogs weren't interested in interacting with us, i.e. they were standoffish.

2. I don't have a problem with a standoffish dog for protection work, provided they are confident as well, even if it's confident aggression.

3. A standoffish dog that lacks confidence (the dogs of yours we tested) does not equal a naturally protective dog.

4. A standoffish dog that lacks confidence (the dogs of yours we tested) may equal a naturally suspicious dog.

5. A naturally suspicious dog does not equal a confident, naturally protective dog.

6. Your dogs are not naturally protective.

Got it now?


----------



## Chad Sloan

1. I'm a Huntsman.

2. Heinz tastes funny.


----------



## mike finn

James Downey said:


> But a few years ago, a swimmer shop got a really bad idea and went to the local strip club, and got thier picture taken on the stage with the pole while the real strippers whom were clothed handed them dollar bills. They got in trouble for it being offensive. Now all Christmas cards have to have command approval...which is a good idea.
> 
> 
> 
> .


Why do you think its a good idea to have to get command approval to send a Chritmas card? That is the type of PC crap that makes the military so much less fun than it was 26 years ago when I started out. Do you like being treated like a ten year old?


----------



## Jackie Lockard

mike finn said:


> Why do you think its a good idea to have to get command approval to send a Chritmas card? That is the type of PC crap that makes the military so much less fun than it was 26 years ago when I started out. Do you like being treated like a ten year old?


Maybe about as much as everyone getting "offended" by crap like that has fun acting like ten year-olds.

Too on point with nudity being taboo but it's ok to glorify death/murder on TV.


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Don, it's no wonder you can't even read your own dogs. It seems you have a tough enough time mastering the English language. Let me break it down for you. Try to keep up.
> 
> What I said was:
> 
> 1. Your dogs weren't interested in interacting with us, i.e. they were standoffish.
> 
> 2. I don't have a problem with a standoffish dog for protection work, provided they are confident as well, even if it's confident aggression.
> 
> 3. A standoffish dog that lacks confidence (the dogs of yours we tested) does not equal a naturally protective dog.
> 
> 4. A standoffish dog that lacks confidence (the dogs of yours we tested) may equal a naturally suspicious dog.
> 
> 5. A naturally suspicious dog does not equal a confident, naturally protective dog.
> 
> 6. Your dogs are not naturally protective.
> 
> Got it now?


No darlin, what you actually said was


> Although you will never admit it, your dogs do not have that heart. I could tell as soon as I walked through your gate ...before Dave was even in the picture. Your dogs were suspicious, but nervous.


It just went to standoffish in this thread.....but tell it any way you want to that suits your needs. LOL

So, to you as an expert in the evaluation of dogs is. They have to chase a rag for you to be able to see anything AND UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE SEEING. They have to like Ariel for you to judge if they have confidence????? I just don't think there are that many stupid people here to believe that a confident dog has to love strangers....especially an 11 year old dog that is seldom around people. You can't tell when an 11 year old dog simply has no use for you??? I really hope people with dogs you have evaluated have them re-evaluated by someone that has a better understanding of dogs rather than just training technique.

Pictured below are dogs with no prey drive and lack confidence.....or heart!

Dog at the end of the truck was laid up for 3 mo...almost lost his front right leg. Finished the fight and still walking.








Unconfident dogs with no rag drive from what Areil could see....oh, wait, this dog was shipped at 6 weeks and was being *trained for playing the game.*Dog was being trained at Tom Roses training school.

















Cutis at 8 mo....*trained to play the game.*








No confidence or prey drive that Ariel, could see.









Like I said, I learned a lot. These two evaluators know how to elicit a specfic response in a dog through a specific action....they are trainers....but, they don't have a clue as to what they are looking at in dogs because they just don't understand them. The only thing they left here knowing is that the dog didn't bite Dave. Another query posed by Ariel..."What makes me think the dogs could tell it wasn't real". LOL. And she wants to be taken seriously??? As a side note....he owner of the pup doing the bitework had to get rid of all his dogs, that pup went from this to being a service dog for the blind. That is balance, another very elusive term bantered around here so freely that isn't understood by most. I cringe when I think of how many dogs Ariel may have evaluated for people. Enough time wasted on this nonsense for now.....got 6 week old puppies to house train.....got vids of the whole litter sitting on the pillow if you want to see them! LMAO


----------



## Ariel Peldunas

Don Turnipseed said:


> No darlin, what you actually said was
> 
> 
> It just went to standoffish in this thread.....but tell it any way you want to that suits your needs. LOL
> 
> So, to you as an expert in the evaluation of dogs is. They have to chase a rag for you to be able to see anything AND UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE SEEING. They have to like Ariel for you to judge if they have confidence????? I just don't think there are that many stupid people here to believe that a confident dog has to love strangers....especially an 11 year old dog that is seldom around people. You can't tell when an 11 year old dog simply has no use for you??? I really hope people with dogs you have evaluated have them re-evaluated by someone that has a better understanding of dogs rather than just training technique.
> 
> Pictured below are dogs with no prey drive and lack confidence.....or heart!
> 
> Dog at the end of the truck was laid up for 3 mo...almost lost his front right leg. Finished the fight and still walking.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unconfident dogs with no rag drive from what Areil could see....oh, wait, this dog was shipped at 6 weeks and was being *trained for playing the game.*Dog was being trained at Tom Roses training school.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cutis at 8 mo....*trained to play the game.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No confidence or prey drive that Ariel, could see.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Like I said, I learned a lot. These two evaluators know how to elicit a specfic response in a dog through a specific action....they are trainers....but, they don't have a clue as to what they are looking at in dogs because they just don't understand them. The only thing they left here knowing is that the dog didn't bite Dave. Another query posed by Ariel..."What makes me think the dogs could tell it wasn't real". LOL. And she wants to be taken seriously??? As a side note....he owner of the pup doing the bitework had to get rid of all his dogs, that pup went from this to being a service dog for the blind. That is balance, another very elusive term bantered around here so freely that isn't understood by most. I cringe when I think of how many dogs Ariel may have evaluated for people. Enough time wasted on this nonsense for now.....got 6 week old puppies to house train.....got vids of the whole litter sitting on the pillow if you want to see them! LMAO


 
No, Don, the dogs don't have to like me for me to judge if they have confidence or are worth a sh*t as protection dogs. They just have to not run. Yours ran. Deal with it. So you have a couple pictures of them with pigs and bears. Wonderful. Keeping hunting them. But don't try to blow smoke up my ass or anyone else's about what wonderful natural protectors your dogs are. They're not. Plain and simple. Everyone but you knows that. You have pictures of one of them doing rag and tug work. Great. That's a good start. But we'll never know if that dog would have matured into a confident protection dog or not. Just deal with a fact that you're an old man who is trying to remain relevant when really you have a bunch of yard dogs you no longer do anything with.

You can believe your own fantasies about how your dogs knew it was a test and would really have protected you if it was real. We all know that's laughable. But if it makes you feel better, keeping spouting that nonsense. I know what I saw. Dave knows what he saw. You know what you saw. You even admitted it when it happened. But, now that you've had some time to think and realize you need to cover your ass, you're making excuses again. 

Why don't you limit your posts to things about hunting or housebreaking or teaching puppies to lay on a pillow? Because that's all you really know about, isn't it Don?


----------



## James Downey

mike finn said:


> Why do you think its a good idea to have to get command approval to send a Chritmas card? That is the type of PC crap that makes the military so much less fun than it was 26 years ago when I started out. Do you like being treated like a ten year old?


First and foremost, the Cards brandish the mark of every unit. And who is in charge of those units?...the Commanding Officer. So if he is going to bare that kind of responsability for the unit, he should be able and does reserve the right to review anything that represents the unit. 

That's no different if you worked for Home Depot and sent a christmas card, that said Happy Holidays from Home Depot and it was filled with images that Home Depot did not want to be associated with.

and because the military is full of a bunch of men and women who act like 10 year olds, Who seem to think that the amount of fun they have is paramount to the image they present.

You have to have good order and discpline. Besides you can still have fun with it, you just cannot do anything offensive.

And Mike if you wanted to change that, you had your chance to climb the ladder.


----------



## Ariel Peldunas

And Don, I'd also like to hear your suggestions for how to properly evaluate a protection dog candidate without them "knowing" it was a test? Maybe we should turn them loose on some wild hogs? Or find a dark alley to walk down late at night? I'd really like to hear some more of your infinite wisdom, considering I clearly have no idea what I'm talking about and my way of evaluating a dog is flawed.


----------



## Lindsay Janes

James Downey said:


> But seriously. Those pics I do find disturbing....


 You are not the only one who found it disturbing.

It makes me so angry to see poachers go after endangered animals. For example, like they go after whales, Siberian tigers, elephants, and other large "prize animals." Larger animals can carry an offspring for a year or two. :evil:


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Ariel Peldunas said:


> And Don, I'd also like to hear your suggestions for how to properly evaluate a protection dog candidate without them "knowing" it was a test? Maybe we should turn them loose on some wild hogs? Or find a dark alley to walk down late at night? I'd really like to hear some more of your infinite wisdom, considering I clearly have no idea what I'm talking about and my way of evaluating a dog is flawed.


Without a doubt it is flawed Ariel. You can't even piece together what I told you to educate you in the other post about dogs that are friendly get stolen by folks just like yourself. You decided you wanted to test dogs. I was against it, but, because Nicole asked, I went along with it. Someone of your self deemed expertise should realise that testing an 11 and an 8 year old dog that is hunting bred would be pointless...especially since you were told they won't chase balls and rags. You are not even testing prey drive, you are testing compulsive behavior that is created in the dog. I can get all pups to pass according to your evaluation standards. You may be a good trainer, but you still don't know what your looking at because there is to much you really don't understand. I am an old man but you just get by as a pretty face darlin. Good god, kid, you think a confident dog has to like a stranger. That is about as naive as it gets.


----------



## Lindsay Janes

vicki dickey said:


> Wow you great men. You can shoot an animal with a gun.WOW You hunt it down and the odds are so even -you have a gun and the deer/squirrel/rabbit has ........ wait what do they have?
> And this makes you so proud? This makes you the great hunter -the big man?
> Then you stuff the dead animal and gloat over it on your wall?
> Yeah guys you are the man.


 So so true.. In my opinion, the difference between killing animals for pleasure/trophies, vs killing animals for food. If a guy is on a hunt to kill a deer to feed his starving family and does not keep any trophies, it makes him of a man than a man goes on a hunt for the pleasure of killing and keeping trophies.


----------



## Nicole Stark

Don Turnipseed said:


> I am an old man but you just get by as a pretty face darlin.


Don, don't be a dick. Statements like that make you look like a grudge holding, has been hick.


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Nicole Stark said:


> Don, don't be a dick. Statements like that make you look like a grudge holding, has been hick.


Tit for tat Nicole.



> Just deal with a fact that you're an old man who is trying to remain relevant when really you have a bunch of yard dogs you no longer do anything with.


Seems one of my dogs was killed not long ago. But I don't do anything with them. Not as much as I used to.....but they still get out. 

She still gets by on looks......but I am a dick? Lot of women would be thrilled with that comment.


----------



## Joby Becker

Don Turnipseed said:


> Without a doubt it is flawed Ariel. You can't even piece together what I told you to educate you in the other post about dogs that are friendly get stolen by folks just like yourself. You decided you wanted to test dogs. I was against it, but, because Nicole asked, I went along with it. Someone of your self deemed expertise should realise that testing an 11 and an 8 year old dog that is hunting bred would be pointless...especially since you were told they won't chase balls and rags. You are not even testing prey drive, you are testing compulsive behavior that is created in the dog. I can get all pups to pass according to your evaluation standards. You may be a good trainer, but you still don't know what your looking at because there is to much you really don't understand. I am an old man but you just get by as a pretty face darlin. Good god, kid, you think a confident dog has to like a stranger. That is about as naive as it gets.


what was tested was not prey drive, or compulsive behavior...it was confidence towards a threatening man, and the dogs failed miserably....YOU are the one that said the dogs would bite, no one else really thought they would...you even said you were gonna have to pry them off of him.

I thought that there would be a small chance the dogs would bite, based on your descriptions of your airedales, and your conviction that they would bite, and that they are natural protection dogs. I figured after 1000 pups and 12 generations, that you knew your dogs pretty well... I have seen quite a few dogs that would bite without training, that is why I felt that yours might. I was wrong..

I tried to tell you a few times that aggression and confidence on animals is NOT the same as aggression and confidence on humans...

All dogs are NOT the same don, if that were true people would be using GSD to hunt, retrievers as patrol dogs, and greyhounds as fighting dogs...

I do not doubt that there are Airedales that would make good protection dogs, I have worked a few...I do have doubts, very serious ones that YOU possess dogs with those capabilities..especially, if those were the two dogs that you yourself thought, had the best chance for success in what was done...you have not included testing for this type of work in your selection process, which is fine, that is your choice...


----------



## Lindsay Janes

I wonder why it is always OKAY for humans to kill animals, but it is never okay for animals to kill humans? Are we superior to them?

Right now, the human population growth has reached to 7 BILLION! Seriously, we need to get that under control..... I'm sorry to say, but I think we need more death than growth.

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2011/01/seven-billion/kunzig-text

What scares me is this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbLiuonV4KE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4B2xOvKFFz4


----------



## Brian McQuain

Lindsay Janes said:


> I wonder why it is always OKAY for humans to kill animals, but it is never okay for animals to kill humans? Are we superior to them?


 
Are you serious? This has to be a joke! Are we, as in humans, superior to animals? Wow. I respect all life, love my dogs like family, but I dont value any animals life over a humans


----------



## Joby Becker

Lindsay Janes said:


> I wonder why it is always OKAY for humans to kill animals, but it is never okay for animals to kill humans? Are we superior to them?
> 
> Right now, the human population growth has reached to 7 BILLION! Seriously, we need to get that under control..... I'm sorry to say, but I think we need more death than growth.
> 
> http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2011/01/seven-billion/kunzig-text
> 
> What scares me is this
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbLiuonV4KE
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4B2xOvKFFz4


I am an animal lover and nature lover, and I do think the population is a growing problem...but I do also think humans are superior to animals.

If 1000 good dogs had to die to save 1 good person, that is an easy choice for me..


----------



## Nicole Stark

Don Turnipseed said:


> Tit for tat Nicole.
> 
> 
> 
> Seems one of my dogs was killed not long ago. But I don't do anything with them. Not as much as I used to.....but they still get out.
> 
> She still gets by on looks......but I am a dick? Lot of women would be thrilled with that comment.


Don, so now you are arguing whether or not you are old? And out of curiosity what makes you think Ariel saw the post on you losing your dog?

Who knows if "lot (sic) of women" would be thrilled with that comment. I don't fall into the category of one that is considered to be an attractive woman but if I did, I'd sure have enough common sense to know you didn't mean that as a compliment.


----------



## Melissa Thom

Personally as far as offending people I think it's all a matter of what your brain/morality is willing to deal with that's different from what you were raised with and justify to either move past it or raise a stink about. For instance at one brief point in my life I found taxidermy kind of offensive and vain. Now I find it absolutely fascinating and a beautiful craft. How much so? I am seriously considering having my eldest dog freeze dried preserved when he dies. 

Some would find his absolutely offensive for a variety of reasons but I am able to move myself past any ethical issue with that because A) I don't believe having a jerkied former pet around lessens my love of that animal while he is alive B) I see value in being able to not only have the memory but to be able to use the physical form as an example, C) It will help me remember him that much better, and D) I don't believe anything that happens to the body after it dies matters in any way all that much either human or animal. Personally I'm donating myself to science after I kick off.


----------



## todd pavlus

Joby Becker said:


> If 1000 good dogs had to die to save 1 good person, that is an easy choice for me..


Key word here is "good". There are a alot of people out there not worth the dog shit on the bottom of my shoe


----------



## James Downey

as in value of life, for me it's how close to my tribe something is. Like my dogs. If a building is burning, and I have to save Addie (my dog, and most beloved animal I have ever owned) or some total stranger. Addie's coming with me. In that sense Addie's life is superior to an unknown human. It has nothing to do with human or animal. If was between my human friend and Addie....Good luck Addie, my human friend is coming with me. And that is about Human vs. Animal. Because when all is said and done in the scenrio who's closer in the tribe...the human is. 

But to value life on a level playing field...I cannot do it. I can only decide what life is more important to my life. And that's selfish as hell, but what other way is there. 

And Joby is right, when it comes down to it. Humans are closer to my tribe than dogs are. With a few exceptions. Addie for one, Words cannot express how much I hold Addie as a friend. Addie by far and without a doubt is the most important friend I have ever had. I do not expect people to understand, and I myself do not understand it. But it's true. At the end of the day, when all is said and done...I would rather spend my time with her than anyone or anything else. I know it's a little mushy for most people to relate to. And if that's true, I consider myself lucky to have met a dog that is that special.


----------



## maggie fraser

Joby Becker said:


> I am an animal lover and nature lover,
> 
> If 1000 good dogs had to die to save 1 good person, that is an easy choice for me..


That's quite a contradictory statement.

What I _could_ find offensive is the question directed at North American society when it is an international board. For example....the French don't particularly find nudity offensive, neither do many African states, a few others too. In fact, some cultures also like the fatter, the better. Different values for different cultures and lifestyles.

1000 good dogs to die to save one good person ain't ever really gonna happen....so no real choice there and don't get the relationship!!

Farming meat for human consumption in a humane way is cool as far as I am concerned, deriving joy from the killing and suffering of another animal I am not so cool about.


----------



## James Downey

Okay, So we can say there is a definite argument against the glorification of killing something purely for sport. For the hunters out there. I will continue to say, If your ethics allow for that, Okay. I do not think your devil. I do not understand it. But there are many things about my ethics people do not understand. 

But on the side of nudity. What is the argument for the naked human body? why are some people offended by that? My wife was breast feeding our kid at a barber shop....completely covered up. And a lady came up to her, and said, "can you put your tit away, this as a barber shop, not a brothel. You may like men staring at you. But I mind if one of those men is my husband". -- or something like that. My wife was very embarrassed by the incident and she did stop...because that's just who she is. I did not know it happened till we left. But WTF...The kid was just eating, nothing was exposed. And if the ladies husband was that big of a pervert...that's her problem. Not ours.


----------



## maggie fraser

James Downey said:


> Okay, So we can say there is a definite argument against the glorification of killing something purely for sport. For the hunters out there. I will continue to say, If your ethics allow for that, Okay. I do not think your devil. I do not understand it. But there are many things about my ethics people do not understand.
> 
> But on the side of nudity. What is the argument for the naked human body? why are some people offended by that? My wife was breast feeding our kid at a barber shop....completely covered up. And a lady came up to her, and said, "can you put your tit away, this as a barber shop, not a brothel. You may like men staring at you. But I mind if one of those men is my husband". -- or something like that. My wife was very embarrassed by the incident and she did stop...because that's just who she is. I did not know it happened till we left. But WTF...The kid was just eating, nothing was exposed. And if the ladies husband was that big of a pervert...that's her problem. Not ours.


The nudity factor could be derived from religious belief in our western society. Have you explored that at all ? It would not be a bad place to start if you are seeking an honest, if not profound answer to your question.


----------



## James Downey

I get that our puritan decendants were very prudish...but you think 200 years later we would get over foolish things.


----------



## maggie fraser

James Downey said:


> I get that our puritan decendants were very prudish...but you think 200 years later we would get over foolish things.


Nothing to do with being prudish....

Considerably more profound than that. Get reading your history man :-D.


----------



## Randy Allen

My mother had a very (one her few) good answer for us kids regarding one of those lifes questions.
'Don't stare, it's rude.'

That someone wants to make a public display or that the young'n is just hungry makes not a wit of difference. 'Don't stare, it's rude.'


Killing for sport completely escapes my grasp. 
They're contradictory in terms.


----------



## Connie Sutherland

maggie fraser said:


> The nudity factor could be derived from religious belief in our western society. Have you explored that at all ? It would not be a bad place to start if you are seeking an honest, if not profound answer to your question.


Yes. There are beliefs about nudity in all the Abrahamic religions, including Christianity (and these religions are practiced by a huge chunk of the world's population).

Not going back just 200 years -- that would be off by a decimal point and then some. 



*But* .... religion and politics: two topics that don't fare well on boards that aren't devoted specifically to them.


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Randy Allen said:


> My mother had a very (one her few) good answer for us kids regarding one of those lifes questions.
> 'Don't stare, it's rude.'


Mine too. 

"Don't stare" (and, in fact, maybe recognition of rudeness, period) doesn't seem to be prescribed anymore. :lol:

JMO, though!


----------



## Lee H Sternberg

I spent a lot of time and lived in Latin America over the years. I am married to a Tica (Costa Rican). Public breast feeding is the norm in Latin America. Women there rarely bottle feed. No one pays any special attention to a woman breast feeding.

Here in the US is obviously culturally different. 

I feel bad that your wife was embarrassed.

I know my wife is sensitive to the cultural differences in both areas and would not try breast feeding in a barber shop here.


----------



## Lindsay Janes

Brian McQuain said:


> Are you serious? This has to be a joke! Are we, as in humans, superior to animals? Wow. I respect all life, love my dogs like family, but I dont value any animals life over a humans


 It's not really a joke. It is how I think. I don't think you get my point or you just disagree with me. There are 7 billions of us living on earth... If we chose to kill more animals to feed us, how will the food demand going to meet our needs to survive? We can keep on killing bigger animals for fun and not let them reproduce enough to meet our needs. Unfortunately lots of people don't care that much for any lives of animal. We could waste on killing them all and not able to feed our families if we needed to. What do you think will happen if it did? Maybe one day our generation is going to practice cannibalism because there are not enough meat source available. Like Kuru, if you haven't heard of it before. If we want the big number to go up, we need enough large animals to feed us all instead cull them for fun. 

Joby would trade a human life for 1,000 dogs. Would I do the same thing? Maybe and maybe not. It probably depends on the person. If this person doesn't, matter to me then I probably won't. Would I want to eliminate one person to just bring down the big number 7 billion to 6,999,999,999.99 then sure I would prefer to loose one person just to get one number under 7 billion. As it sounds, I know I'm way too harsh.


----------



## Lee H Sternberg

Lindsay Janes said:


> It's not really a joke. It is how I think. I don't think you get my point or you just disagree with me. There are 7 billions of us living on earth... If we chose to kill more animals to feed us, how will the food demand going to meet our needs to survive? We can keep on killing bigger animals for fun and not let them reproduce enough to meet our needs. Unfortunately lots of people don't care that much for any lives of animal. We could waste on killing them all and not able to feed our families if we needed to. What do you think will happen if it did? Maybe one day our generation is going to practice cannibalism because there are not enough meat source available. Like Kuru, if you haven't heard of it before. If we want the big number to go up, we need enough large animals to feed us all instead cull them for fun.
> 
> Joby would trade a human life for 1,000 dogs. Would I do the same thing? Maybe and maybe not. It probably depends on the person. If this person doesn't, matter to me then I probably won't. Would I want to eliminate one person to just bring down the big number 7 billion to 6,999,999,999.99 then sure I would prefer to loose one person just to get one number under 7 billion. As it sounds, I know I'm way too harsh.



I gotta say it --- PETA Trolll](*,)


----------



## Chris McDonald

Lee H Sternberg said:


> I gotta say it --- PETA Trolll](*,)


I gotta say WTF? Holy S*it …. Not only about the that last post but the whole thread


----------



## Lee H Sternberg

Chris McDonald said:


> I gotta say WTF? Holy S*it …. Not only about the that last post but the whole thread


I'm going to go breast feed and after that kill off a few lion and tigers for stuffing to hang in my new family room.


----------



## Ariel Peldunas

Don Turnipseed said:


> Without a doubt it is flawed Ariel. You can't even piece together what I told you to educate you in the other post about dogs that are friendly get stolen by folks just like yourself. You decided you wanted to test dogs. I was against it, but, because Nicole asked, I went along with it. Someone of your self deemed expertise should realise that testing an 11 and an 8 year old dog that is hunting bred would be pointless...especially since you were told they won't chase balls and rags. You are not even testing prey drive, you are testing compulsive behavior that is created in the dog. I can get all pups to pass according to your evaluation standards. You may be a good trainer, but you still don't know what your looking at because there is to much you really don't understand. I am an old man but you just get by as a pretty face darlin. Good god, kid, you think a confident dog has to like a stranger. That is about as naive as it gets.


 
Don, I love how you interpret what I say as it best suits you. Never did I say a confident dog has to like a stranger. Some confident dogs do like strangers. Others do not. That's not in question. What is in question is why you somehow believe your dogs are confident around people, which in fact they are not. They are skittish and undersocialized which makes them poor protection dogs. Undersocialized would not be a problem if they were confident when threatened and willing to fight to defend themselves or you. But they're not. But we've gone over this so many times and you refuse to admit what we all know. Your dogs ran because they were scared. But you can't argue with ignorance, can you?

I also love how your best defense against me are your misogynistic attacks. It's not my fault I was born without a penis (and apparently with a pretty face to boot). Honestly, I think life would be easier if I were a man. I'd have a lot more credibility in my field and wouldn't have to work quite so hard. But, alas, I'm stuck in this body, so I try to make the best of it. My accomplishments with my dogs have nothing to do with my ability. I just throw on a mini-skirt and heels, bat my eyelashes and sashay my way around the trial field and the judges just throw those high scores at me. Most of the time, I don't even take my dog out of the car. As for my resume, it's just a glamour shot I had taken at the mall with my name, address and phone number printed on it. No need for work history, relevant experience, accomplishments or education. I get hired as a SME based solely upon my appearance.

There's no reasoning with you because you're determined to go down with your ship. No matter how flawed your arguments, you're going to stick to them because to do otherwise would be to admit you were wrong ...and what kind of man admits he's wrong? No, Don. You're a real man. Just like your dogs are real dogs. Only, you're the only one who knows it. Why try to understand where someone else is coming from or learn about something before you go running off at the mouth about it? That's for fools. All of us who actually train our dogs and choose the right dogs for the task are just wasting our time. We could just ask the omnipotent Don Turnipseed to take a gander at our mutts and, in his infinite understanding of dog behavior, he'd tell us what they were born to do ...no training necessary.


----------



## Ariel Peldunas

Don Turnipseed said:


> Without a doubt it is flawed Ariel. You can't even piece together what I told you to educate you in the other post about dogs that are friendly get stolen by folks just like yourself. You decided you wanted to test dogs. I was against it, but, because Nicole asked, I went along with it. Someone of your self deemed expertise should realise that testing an 11 and an 8 year old dog that is hunting bred would be pointless...especially since you were told they won't chase balls and rags. You are not even testing prey drive, you are testing compulsive behavior that is created in the dog. I can get all pups to pass according to your evaluation standards. You may be a good trainer, but you still don't know what your looking at because there is to much you really don't understand. I am an old man but you just get by as a pretty face darlin. Good god, kid, you think a confident dog has to like a stranger. That is about as naive as it gets.


The test wasn't pointless until your dogs failed. Nicole, Dave and I shelled out our own money to test your dogs just to prove you were wrong. You chose the dogs for the test. If you knew it was pointless testing those two dogs, why did you pick them? If you knew none of your dogs would bite, why would you have let us make you and your dogs look foolish?

You can't even begin to understand my evaluation standards. It goes much further than a couple pups just tugging on a rag. You've never seen what I'm looking for, so obviously you don't understand. Sure, we like to make our dogs obsessive over the games we teach them to play. A dog that never tires of their work doesn't stop working when it would get boring for a dog with less drive. You use the word compulsive a lot. I think you should look up the definition of the word. It's not appropriate in this case. We weren't testing compulsive behavior. We were testing drive as it would lend itself to training a protection dog. Your dogs didn't have it. Get over it. 

As far as my self-deemed expertise. You should probably inform the Marines and the Army. They've both hired me as an SME. They'd probably like to know you don't agree with their assessment of my accomplishments or work history. You should probably just send them a picture of me so they can see I'm just a pretty face.


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## Lindsay Janes

Lee H Sternberg said:


> I gotta say it --- PETA Trolll](*,)


I am not a peta troll. Please keep the personal attack out of it. You don't have to agree with I say. It's my opinion and I am entitled to it like you are with yours. If you don't like what I have to say, you don't need to listen to what I say. You have no control what I say except yourself.


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## Lindsay Janes

Lee H Sternberg said:


> I'm going to go breast feed and after that kill off a few lion and tigers for stuffing to hang in my new family room.


 Good for you and you should.


----------



## mike suttle

Don Turnipseed said:


> Without a doubt it is flawed Ariel. You can't even piece together what I told you to educate you in the other post about dogs that are friendly get stolen by folks just like yourself. You decided you wanted to test dogs. I was against it, but, because Nicole asked, I went along with it. Someone of your self deemed expertise should realise that testing an 11 and an 8 year old dog that is hunting bred would be pointless...especially since you were told they won't chase balls and rags. You are not even testing prey drive, you are testing compulsive behavior that is created in the dog. I can get all pups to pass according to your evaluation standards. You may be a good trainer, but you still don't know what your looking at because there is to much you really don't understand. I am an old man but you just get by as a pretty face darlin. Good god, kid, you think a confident dog has to like a stranger. That is about as naive as it gets.


Don, for a long time I've sat back and read your silly posts and tried to see some shread of relevance or at least of hint of intelligence in any of them. You have more experience (in terms of years being alive) than many of us, however 100 years of doing something wrong doesnt make you an expert. You hunt with your dogs, I also have a couple terriers that I like to hunt with when i have the time, but that's a field where I assume you know more than me, and likely many of us on this forum. I have had terriers that were bred to hunt, but would not stay in the fight with a large boar raccoon, I was man enough to admit they just didn't have what it takes. Your dogs may be great at hunting and even fighting bears and hogs, but they are not suited for protection work, just be a man and admit that.
I will tell you that even though Ariel is much younger than you, she is light years ahead of you in reading canine behaviors. I saw the video of your dogs and it was exactly as I thought it would be. Don't be afraid to admit she knows more than you, she could teach you a hell of a lot if you'd let her. 
I will give you an example of how sometimes being older and having twice as much experience doesnt mean you know more. I picked up a pistol for the first time in my life in 1999, in 2004 I won a National Pistol Championship. With only five years of pistol shooting I beat the best shooters in the country, many of which had 50 years or more of competitive shooting experience. When I taught my first NRA pistol class at Camp Perry Ohio I was at least 20 years younger and less experienced than every student in my class and at first most of them didn't want to listen to a word I had to offer them about becoming a better shooter. In time they all realized that I could help them, and even the oldest most experienced shooters there learned something and became better shooters.
Hopefully you put your pride aside and listen to Ariel, she is profoundly more qualified to evaluate dogs than you are, that I can promise you.


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## Chris McDonald

Lee, Lindsays made at you… ha ha


----------



## Lindsay Janes

Chris McDonald said:


> Lee, Lindsays made at you… ha ha


 Really mature, Chris..... :roll: Good night, all.


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## Joby Becker

cmon....this whole nudity not offending people..

who here *wouldnt* be offended by seeing some of our members naked..???

what if every post we made, had a large graphic nude picture of us in the post...

I for one would not be reading some people's posts anymore


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## James Downey

Joby, of course that would be offensive. But that would be like If I said i do not understand why people are offended by gay people. And you said, come on, what if everytime you met 2 gay dudes they touched thier weiners together right infront of you.


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## Joby Becker

James Downey said:


> Joby, of course that would be offensive. But that would be like If I said i do not understand why people are offended by gay people. And you said, come on, what if everytime you met 2 gay dudes they touched thier weiners together right infront of you.


that would be gay..

so you are saying what exactly then...nudity should be allowed, but only if a certain type of nude person is displayed? who makes those decisions then?


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## James Downey

Joby Becker said:


> that would be gay..
> 
> so you are saying what exactly then...nudity should be allowed, but only if a certain type of nude person is displayed? who makes those decisions then?


 
Not certain people....and I have not worked out all the kinks yet:mrgreen:. My point was just saying....You can go with no problem and rent terminator for your kid...watch arnold end the world. but go get him a movie showing some titties in it, and tell someone. Child services will be coming over to pick him up.


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## Joby Becker

James Downey said:


> Not certain people....and I have not worked out all the kinks yet:mrgreen:. My point was just saying....You can go with no problem and rent terminator for your kid...watch arnold end the world. but go get him a movie showing some titties in it, and tell someone. Child services will be coming over to pick him up.


yeah but its ok to show HIM naked...LOL...Frankly I am tired of seeing guys asses on TV...not offended, just not really entertaining for me...


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## James Downey

Joby Becker said:


> yeah but its ok to show HIM naked...LOL...Frankly I am tired of seeing guys asses on TV...not offended, just not really entertaining for me...


 
YEAH!! and how is that equal rights. We have every right in the world to see some jubliees on the tube.


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## Jon Harris

Yep I also dont really need to see the asses on the tube, Hell, there are enough asses on this:twisted: forum


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## Don Turnipseed

mike suttle said:


> Don, for a long time I've sat back and read your silly posts and tried to see some shread of relevance or at least of hint of intelligence in any of them. You have more experience (in terms of years being alive) than many of us, however 100 years of doing something wrong doesnt make you an expert. You hunt with your dogs, I also have a couple terriers that I like to hunt with when i have the time, but that's a field where I assume you know more than me, and likely many of us on this forum. I have had terriers that were bred to hunt, but would not stay in the fight with a large boar raccoon, I was man enough to admit they just didn't have what it takes. Your dogs may be great at hunting and even fighting bears and hogs, but they are not suited for protection work, just be a man and admit that.
> I will tell you that even though Ariel is much younger than you, she is light years ahead of you in reading canine behaviors. I saw the video of your dogs and it was exactly as I thought it would be. Don't be afraid to admit she knows more than you, she could teach you a hell of a lot if you'd let her.
> I will give you an example of how sometimes being older and having twice as much experience doesnt mean you know more. I picked up a pistol for the first time in my life in 1999, in 2004 I won a National Pistol Championship. With only five years of pistol shooting I beat the best shooters in the country, many of which had 50 years or more of competitive shooting experience. When I taught my first NRA pistol class at Camp Perry Ohio I was at least 20 years younger and less experienced than every student in my class and at first most of them didn't want to listen to a word I had to offer them about becoming a better shooter. In time they all realized that I could help them, and even the oldest most experienced shooters there learned something and became better shooters.
> Hopefully you put your pride aside and listen to Ariel, she is profoundly more qualified to evaluate dogs than you are, that I can promise you.


Mike, this is the second time you have ventured forth onto the WDF in what, a year, since the experts here drawed and quartered you? I was waiting to see how long it would take and knew you would show up. I love behavior.....all kinds. Both times you have ventured on here was to rescue sweet Ariel from herself since she is now so defensive she is answering everyone's posts whether they are directed to her or not. LMAO. I am sure you must be her hero.....her White Knight of sorts. Fascinating behavior....as obvious as it is fascinating. To me your a dog broker that looks for dogs without balance for a very real purpose and need. That's cool, but, I think you have forgotten what normal dogs are. Both times you have come to Ariel's rescue, you go off on these tangents about how Ariel shoots, now how you shoot....blah, blah, blah. I don't care if Ariel or yourself can shoot a gun. I got lots of em myself and know how to shoot them. Who cares.


----------



## Ariel Peldunas

Don Turnipseed said:


> Mike, this is the second time you have ventured forth onto the WDF in what, a year, since the experts here drawed and quartered you? I was waiting to see how long it would take and knew you would show up. I love behavior.....all kinds. Both times you have ventured on here was to rescue sweet Ariel from herself since she is now so defensive she is answering everyone's posts whether they are directed to her or not. LMAO. I am sure you must be her hero.....her White Knight of sorts. Fascinating behavior....as obvious as it is fascinating. To me your a dog broker that looks for dogs without balance for a very real purpose and need. That's cool, but, I think you have forgotten what normal dogs are. Both times you have come to Ariel's rescue, you go off on these tangents about how Ariel shoots, now how you shoot....blah, blah, blah. I don't care if Ariel or yourself can shoot a gun. I got lots of em myself and know how to shoot them. Who cares.


Experts? Drawn and quartered? Come on now, Don. The people on here with bad things to say about Mike were those with personal vendettas against him. I think if you do some research, you'll see the people who actually own dogs from Mike are extremely happy with him and what he produces/imports. 

I think it's funny that you feel you are qualified to determine that Mike's dogs are not balanced. Have you actually ever seen any of his dogs or worked with any of them? Just because they show extreme behaviors desirable for the work they do does not mean they are not balanced. What exactly is your definition of balance? I'd think USAR dogs probably need a fair bit of balance, or SWAT dogs or multi-purpose dogs working in extreme chaos. I'd think an unbalanced dog would be a liability in those situations. And funny how people looking for dogs for those purposes seek Mike out because of his reputation in the business.

I don't need to be rescued, Don. And I'm not defensive, just bored and enjoy pointing out your ignorance when I see it ...which is pretty much every time you post. We all know you're inexperienced and talking out your ass. You can hurl the personal insults at me as much as you like. At the end of the day, I know I'm good at what I do and my accomplishments and qualifications speak for themselves. I'm not about to let some old fart with a bunch of pets run off at the mouth about how much he knows when clearly has no understanding of what he's talking about.

And talking about how well I shoot is just about as relevant as talking about my pretty face (which you seem to be obsessed with - I'm a little too young for you Don) or my political affiliation.


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## Don Turnipseed

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Experts? Drawn and quartered? Come on now, Don. The people on here with bad things to say about Mike were those with personal vendettas against him. I think if you do some research, you'll see the people who actually own dogs from Mike are extremely happy with him and what he produces/imports.
> 
> I think it's funny that you feel you are qualified to determine that Mike's dogs are not balanced. Have you actually ever seen any of his dogs or worked with any of them? Just because they show extreme behaviors desirable for the work they do does not mean they are not balanced. What exactly is your definition of balance? I'd think USAR dogs probably need a fair bit of balance, or SWAT dogs or multi-purpose dogs working in extreme chaos. I'd think an unbalanced dog would be a liability in those situations. And funny how people looking for dogs for those purposes seek Mike out because of his reputation in the business.
> 
> I don't need to be rescued, Don. And I'm not defensive, just bored and enjoy pointing out your ignorance when I see it ...which is pretty much every time you post. We all know you're inexperienced and talking out your ass. You can hurl the personal insults at me as much as you like. At the end of the day, I know I'm good at what I do and my accomplishments and qualifications speak for themselves. I'm not about to let some old fart with a bunch of pets run off at the mouth about how much he knows when clearly has no understanding of what he's talking about.
> 
> And talking about how well I shoot is just about as relevant as talking about my pretty face (which you seem to be obsessed with - I'm a little too young for you Don) or my political affiliation.


What ever the reasons Ariel, Mike has stayed off the board since.....and apparently he feels you do need rescuing whether you think so or not. And people think chivalry is dead. As far as me refering to your looks, I am a pretty straght shooter and have no problem saying what I think. Seen a lot better looking women, seen a lot worse. The comment was made because I suspect you can get by with a lot less actual knowledge than a homely woman could.


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## Ariel Peldunas

Don Turnipseed said:


> What ever the reasons Ariel, Mike has stayed off the board since.....and apparently he feels you do need rescuing whether you think so or not. And people think chivalry is dead. As far as me refering to your looks, I am a pretty straght shooter and have no problem saying what I think. Seen a lot better looking women, seen a lot worse. The comment was made because I suspect you can get by with a lot less actual knowledge than a homely woman could.


I'll say this, he does like to protect me ...even when I don't need it. And I appreciate that.

As far as my knowledge, you'd never know because you really don't consider a word I say with any semblance of an open mind. You're content to remain blissfully ignorant and no one would have any problem with that if you stayed holed up in your cabin in the woods and kept your mouth shut. But you try to enlighten me and the rest of us who actually do the things we talk about.


----------



## Joby Becker

Don Turnipseed said:


> Mike, this is the second time you have ventured forth onto the WDF in what, a year, since the experts here drawed and quartered you? I was waiting to see how long it would take and knew you would show up. I love behavior.....all kinds. Both times you have ventured on here was to rescue sweet Ariel from herself since she is now so defensive she is answering everyone's posts whether they are directed to her or not. LMAO. I am sure you must be her hero.....her White Knight of sorts. Fascinating behavior....as obvious as it is fascinating. To me your a dog broker that looks for dogs without balance for a very real purpose and need. That's cool, but, I think you have forgotten what normal dogs are. Both times you have come to Ariel's rescue, you go off on these tangents about how Ariel shoots, now how you shoot....blah, blah, blah. I don't care if Ariel or yourself can shoot a gun. I got lots of em myself and know how to shoot them. Who cares.


Don, coming from a guy who got scared of being bitten by his own dog, because a rat crawled on you, you calling Mike's dogs unbalanced is really a joke...

Mike breeds dogs with high drive, very similar in intensity to the high "real" prey drive that claim to breed in your hunting dogs, but it is geared towards other things..if his dogs are unbalanced, why is it that they can be perfectly trained to resist their impulses and work under strict control? I am sure if Mike wraps a rag around himself, or puts a suit on, his dogs are not going to just try to bite at the stuff uncontrollably...

I would like to see you call your dogs off of live game, that would show balance and control...call them out of the fight and have them return to you, while right in the thick of it...this can be done with any dog Mike has bred I surmise....

WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY UNBALANCED????

here is short video of my unbalanced dog...interacting with a kid she never met, who is standing over her, growling in her face...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxFDLqIXoWw


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## susan tuck

The crap he's saying about Mike is Don's clumsy and chicken shit attempt to redirect, Ariel. The only way he can do this is to make shit up. I don't know if even he believes the nonsense he spews. After all, look at all the knowledge you and Dave imparted to him so generously and graciously after his bullshit stories about his dogs were proven to be bullshit- yet he walks away thinking it's all about waving a rag????? Wow!!! I'm beginning to think maybe he isn't just a belligerent windbag, it's possible he really is just that dimwitted.


----------



## Skip Morgart

Don Turnipseed said:


> What ever the reasons Ariel, Mike has stayed off the board since.....and apparently he feels you do need rescuing whether you think so or not. And people think chivalry is dead. As far as me refering to your looks, I am a pretty straght shooter and have no problem saying what I think. Seen a lot better looking women, seen a lot worse. The comment was made because I suspect you can get by with a lot less actual knowledge than a homely woman could.


Don- I just find it sad how much you have changed your tune about your dogs since they were tested. You were humbled after that, but at least you admitted your dogs' "natural" inabilities after they were tested, and I think more than a few people were glad to see your honesty back then, but now your stories have changed and reverted back to the old BS. You have lost a lot of street cred again. People that "flip" like that tend to lose quite a bit of respect from others.


----------



## Ariel Peldunas

susan tuck said:


> The crap he's saying about Mike is Don's clumsy and chicken shit attempt to redirect, Ariel. The only way he can do this is to make shit up. I don't know if even he believes the nonsense he spews. After all, look at all the knowledge you and Dave imparted to him so generously and graciously after his bullshit stories about his dogs were proven to be bullshit- yet he walks away thinking it's all about waving a rag????? Wow!!! I'm beginning to think maybe he isn't just a belligerent windbag, it's possible he really is just that dimwitted.


It really is sad, especially because there are more like him out there. I was overseas with an old fellow with the same mentality ...and he and I almost came to blows because he tried to bully me and throw his age and gender at me as if that was reason alone for me to subscribe to his methodology. Yes, I almost got in a fight with a 60 year old man ...not sure what that says about me, or him. 

My response to people like Don and that old guy is always the same ...don't tell me, show me. In order to be an expert (or at least someone who is considered to have knowledge in your field) you should at least have some experience doing it or be able to show some product of your efforts. With both Don and the guy overseas, I saw no proof in the pudding ...just a bunch of hot air and aggression. They feel like if they talk loud enough and try to intimidate others, people will give up and subscribe to their manner of thinking. I'm usually pretty quiet. I prefer to let my actions speak louder than my words. I don't often tell people what I know. I perform and produce and let them decide if my ideas are worth considering. However, this being a forum, all I have are words and videos (although I usually forget the camera when I'm doing anything relevant to these discussions). I can back up the things I say and believe with real experience ...doing it, seeing it done, doing it wrong and learning how to fix the problems. Don has nothing but words. It's sad, really, because there are a lot of less experienced people who might read what he has to say and look at how old he is and how long he has been doing this and assume he must know what he's talking about. But again, I ask, what does Don have to show for all his years in this business? He's not a trainer. He's got a couple dogs he mentions repeatedly that have dabbled in other venues aside from living in his yard and posing next to dead game. But mostly, he lets his dogs eat, hump each other and lay on pillows. And for that, he thinks he should be commended.


----------



## Kelly Godwin

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Experts? Drawn and quartered? Come on now, Don. The people on here with bad things to say about Mike were those with personal vendettas against him. I think if you do some research, you'll see the people who actually own dogs from Mike are extremely happy with him and what he produces/imports.


This is absolutely true. A small group posted a lot of crap over summer and, when Amanda and I were there, it was very apparent there was no truth behind any of it. Mike let us tour the facilities, see all the dogs, even offered to let us see any dog work that we wanted. All of the dogs looked to be in great health and everything was very clean. It wasn't the type of quick cleanup clean, either. It was obvious that the facilities and dogs were constantly maintained. 

People who have personal issues with Mike try to attack him where they feel it will hurt the worst, his business. 

By the way, it was great meeting you a few weeks back - Amanda and I really enjoyed getting out to LHK and training with you all. We look forward to getting back out there sometime!


----------



## Kelly Godwin

Joby Becker said:


> here is short video of my unbalanced dog...interacting with a kid she never met, who is standing over her, growling in her face...
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxFDLqIXoWw


It's obvious that dog has been tranquilized. 8):mrgreen:


----------



## James Downey

Don Turnipseed said:


> Mike, this is the second time you have ventured forth onto the WDF in what, a year, since the experts here drawed and quartered you? I was waiting to see how long it would take and knew you would show up. I love behavior.....all kinds. Both times you have ventured on here was to rescue sweet Ariel from herself since she is now so defensive she is answering everyone's posts whether they are directed to her or not. LMAO. I am sure you must be her hero.....her White Knight of sorts. Fascinating behavior....as obvious as it is fascinating. To me your a dog broker that looks for dogs without balance for a very real purpose and need. That's cool, but, I think you have forgotten what normal dogs are. Both times you have come to Ariel's rescue, you go off on these tangents about how Ariel shoots, now how you shoot....blah, blah, blah. I don't care if Ariel or yourself can shoot a gun. I got lots of em myself and know how to shoot them. Who cares.


 
I would say you have been drawn quartered yourself by some protection dog experts. I mean most of us are humble enough not to call ourselves experts...but I would say many here, compared to the layman are indeed an expert....yet the funny thing is your the only with no experience in the protection dog world, and openly fancy yourself the expert. 

And we get it Don, Shooting is only cool when you do it. Dogs are only Bad Ass when they are your's. Speaking plainly is only worth anything when it's coming out of your mouth. Training is only worth a shit when it's your dog's on the dog bed. Hey everyone look at how cool Don is!!!!


----------



## James Downey

Don Turnipseed said:


> Mike, this is the second time you have ventured forth onto the WDF in what, a year, since the experts here drawed and quartered you? I was waiting to see how long it would take and knew you would show up. I love behavior.....all kinds. Both times you have ventured on here was to rescue sweet Ariel from herself since she is now so defensive she is answering everyone's posts whether they are directed to her or not. LMAO. I am sure you must be her hero.....her White Knight of sorts. Fascinating behavior....as obvious as it is fascinating. .


 
I can play Dime store Psychologist too. Don, jealousy has a pretty obvious face. You wish some pretty young lady would enjoy the seed coming to thier rescue, but it's been a long, long, long time since any women has even considered the Seed as her hero. and you have deep seeded latent homosexual urges.


----------



## James Downey

When Don forgets to take his porn out of the VCR this is what his lady finds

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lU4Zeiwvy6g&feature=fvst


----------



## mike suttle

Don Turnipseed said:


> Mike, this is the second time you have ventured forth onto the WDF in what, a year, since the experts here drawed and quartered you? I was waiting to see how long it would take and knew you would show up. I love behavior.....all kinds. Both times you have ventured on here was to rescue sweet Ariel from herself since she is now so defensive she is answering everyone's posts whether they are directed to her or not. LMAO. I am sure you must be her hero.....her White Knight of sorts. Fascinating behavior....as obvious as it is fascinating. To me your a dog broker that looks for dogs without balance for a very real purpose and need. That's cool, but, I think you have forgotten what normal dogs are. Both times you have come to Ariel's rescue, you go off on these tangents about how Ariel shoots, now how you shoot....blah, blah, blah. I don't care if Ariel or yourself can shoot a gun. I got lots of em myself and know how to shoot them. Who cares.


You think I haven't been on this forum much lately because a few idiots had personal issues with me on here?? LOL, that really is funny.
I don't usually post much on here anymore because of idiots like you who only want to argue with common working dog sense. I can promise you any posts made about me or my business has no effect on my desire to post here myself. Last year was a long one for me...... Fired a guy who was stealing from me and he got mad and posted some shit on here about me, went through a divorce, dated a new girl who has a jealous ex boyfriend who posted some shit on here about me, dated another girl who lied to me about breaking up with her boyfriend and actually moved here because she had no where else to go, then I found out she was still dating him and me too, pretty sure that one stirred up another personal issue with me and her boyfriend who otherwise I would have surely been good friends with. Spent the month of July in Camp Perry shooting the National rifle and pistol Championships, had many 3 week long trips to Europe this summer on buy trips, then in September I started dating Ariel and have been way too happy and busy working dogs to come on here and post much. But now the weather is bad and the training has slowed down some so I came here for some comic relief.
I used the shooting example to show you how 50 years of doing something wrong doesn't make you an expert, sometimes people with far less time in the saddle figure shit out much better than some of the folks with much more time in that area. I love Ariel to death, pretty sure that's not a secret, and I agree that she does have a pretty face, but she certainly does not need my help with you, hell I'm pretty sure my 5 year old son can see that you're an absolute dumbass when it comes to working dogs. And that isn't even the problem, the problem is that you pretend to know what you are talking about and when people point out what an idiot you are, you get super defensive and hide behind shit like....."well, you just get respect because you have a pretty face".
I try to never let myself get spun up on these boards by dumbasses like yourself, but I just can't help myself this time. Maybe I can get someone to sponsor me a flight to your place and I can test YOUR fight drive.....I already saw how much your dogs have.


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## Bob Scott

Hey Mike, I saw one of your dogs today. Big, 11 month old male owned by Lynsey Fuegner Vance who's on the forum occasionally. Big, super nice dog. Drivy and rock solid stable. He's in great hands!
Lynsey has her own training studio now.


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## mike suttle

Bob Scott said:


> Hey Mike, I saw one of your dogs today. Big, 11 month old male owned by Lynsey Fuegner Vance who's on the forum occasionally. Big, super nice dog. Drivy and rock solid stable. He's in great hands!
> Lynsey has her own training studio now.


That's an Ivo son, Lynsey really likes him a lot, she's a good trainer.


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## James Downey

Don Turnipseed said:


> What ever the reasons Ariel, Mike has stayed off the board since.....and apparently he feels you do need rescuing whether you think so or not. And people think chivalry is dead. As far as me refering to your looks, I am a pretty straght shooter and have no problem saying what I think. Seen a lot better looking women, seen a lot worse. The comment was made because I suspect you can get by with a lot less actual knowledge than a homely woman could.


 
I do not see Don with a trophies for beauty....Maybe a few "I Lost 5lbs!!!" magnets on the fridge from weight watchers.


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## Bob Scott

mike suttle said:


> That's an Ivo son, Lynsey really likes him a lot, she's a good trainer.



Nice, nice dog...........even if it is a Mal. :grin:;-)
Lynsey and I had the first two dogs, Aridan and Thunder to get their SchIII at the RWDF training club.


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## Skip Morgart

mike suttle said:


> .....
> I try to never let myself get spun up on these boards by dumbasses like yourself, but I just can't help myself this time. Maybe I can get someone to sponsor me a flight to your place and I can test YOUR fight drive.....I already saw how much your dogs have.


If we're starting a collection, I'll chip in a few bucks.


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## Brian Anderson

Don Turnipseed said:


> What ever the reasons Ariel, Mike has stayed off the board since.....and apparently he feels you do need rescuing whether you think so or not. And people think chivalry is dead. As far as me refering to your looks, I am a pretty straght shooter and have no problem saying what I think. Seen a lot better looking women, seen a lot worse. The comment was made because I suspect you can get by with a lot less actual knowledge than a homely woman could.


Don I have to admit this post really sounds trailer trash ... im just saying


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## Lee H Sternberg

Skip Morgart said:


> If we're starting a collection, I'll chip in a few bucks.


Are we talking CAGE FIGHT?\\/](*,)

Tranquilo guys!!!


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## Joby Becker

just do a re-test...of the initial challenge

don attacks mike, see if mikes dogs do anything...

then if Don is still able to, Mike will attack him, and see if Dons dogs do anything..

or just flip a coin to see who goes first...

then have a shoot off, with Don's guns to see who is the better shot...


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## Chris McDonald

This is good. I think you should add a hog and a raccoon in too.


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## Joby Becker

Chris McDonald said:


> This is good. I think you should add a hog and a raccoon in too.


for shooting?


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## Lee H Sternberg

Chris McDonald said:


> This is good. I think you should add a hog and a raccoon in too.



I'm calling the PETA gal on you Chris!


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## Wayne Dodge

Don,

You’re talking out of school; you should look at your responses from a non-emotional standpoint and realize that they are ignorant in many ways. Your experience lies in certain areas, consider what they truly are and not what you want them to be. You have things to offer the community, through some self-discovery figure out what they are.


I have met, spoken and trained with Ariel; my experience with her is limited. I will say that she is an excellent trainer and has an eye for what she is looking at. The quality that I appreciated most about her was the humble and passionate way she approached her work, the ability to look at a situation that had emotional attachment and truly consider the pros and cons to what she saw. In my opinion with the passion she has for dogs, the intelligent open mindedness, the desire to seek knowledge and the ability to take constructive criticism she will one day become a truly great trainer. 

I for one as I am sure many people can speak for am not one to mix words based upon a pretty face or someones reputation; she is someone worth listening to (take or leave what she has to say, yet for sure worth the time) because of her ability and knowledge…. nothing more or less.


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## Don Turnipseed

Leave for another day and same old shit.

Mike said,


> I try to never let myself get spun up on these boards by dumbasses like yourself, but I just can't help myself this time. Maybe I can get someone to sponsor me a flight to your place and I can test YOUR fight drive.....I already saw how much your dogs have.


I wouldn't worry to much about my fight drive Mike. No point in getting upset with yourself, everyone on this forum probably noticed it. My god, Ray Charles could have seen that from across the room!


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## Ariel Peldunas

Wayne Dodge said:


> Don,
> 
> You’re talking out of school; you should look at your responses from a non-emotional standpoint and realize that they are ignorant in many ways. Your experience lies in certain areas, consider what they truly are and not what you want them to be. You have things to offer the community, through some self-discovery figure out what they are.
> 
> 
> I have met, spoken and trained with Ariel; my experience with her is limited. I will say that she is an excellent trainer and has an eye for what she is looking at. The quality that I appreciated most about her was the humble and passionate way she approached her work, the ability to look at a situation that had emotional attachment and truly consider the pros and cons to what she saw. In my opinion with the passion she has for dogs, the intelligent open mindedness, the desire to seek knowledge and the ability to take constructive criticism she will one day become a truly great trainer.
> 
> I for one as I am sure many people can speak for am not one to mix words based upon a pretty face or someones reputation; she is someone worth listening to (take or leave what she has to say, yet for sure worth the time) because of her ability and knowledge…. nothing more or less.


Just now saw this ...thank you very much, Wayne. I have to say, watching you and Mike test and interact with dogs has shown me some things I've not really seen before and made me think about how I could be doing some things differently or better. Mike has always spoken highly of you and I can understand why. I really think you are not only able to put techniques into practice well, you are also able to understand why you are doing what you do and what effect it is having on the dogs.

I think Pat Nolan once made this statement ...some trainers are mechanics and some are engineers. There are a lot of people who can make the pieces fit and get the dog to do what they want ...but not many who understand why the pieces fit the way they do and how to design something better. 

Anyway, just wanted to acknowledge what you said and let you know I appreciate your post.


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## Harry Keely

I say either give them a piece of your mind back ( prove them wrong ), or ignore them ( not worth the time and effort, and your tired of the same old arguments ), or agree with them, or killing them with kindness. I think that pretty much covers all views on being offended.


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## Bob Scott

Harry Keely said:


> I say either give them a piece of your mind back ( prove them wrong ), or ignore them ( not worth the time and effort, and your tired of the same old arguments ), or agree with them, or killing them with kindness. I think that pretty much covers all views on being offended.



I'm a big believer in the subline on all my post. It's as simple as that!


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