# What is value of a "green" dog ?



## Brad Trull (Apr 9, 2012)

I am curious for some opinions on this, and not a monetary value( initial outlay for prospect ) , but from a practical stand point . Which is better for a person wanting a PPD and having limited access to quality decoys?

Spend the extra 1k on the " green" dog or buy the pup and then make the drive , investment hoping the dog works out ?

I am looking at it from a long time in hunting breeds and having being " burned" on started dogs which were not suitable for the intended task 
.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

My belief is you can potentially develop just as strong a bond with a older dog as you can a puppy. I see no advantage to a puppy, unless it stems from a particular parentage that interests you most.

There are many behavior developments that can take shape AFTER the first 8 weeks, 12 weeks or more. For example, I've had one habitual "digger" in each of my last two litters, whose behavior didn't first appear until right around the 12 week mark.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

imo, can't get a PPD trained to any level of safety with "limited access" to decoys 

of course you can develop a bond with any dog at any age ... some may just take longer
but don't see how that will necessarily equate to training it as a PPD ??

a "green, partially trained PPD" would only be a red flag for me 
... but of course it all depends on what you consider a sufficiently trained "PPD" 
...imo for that type of dog, the training would never stop and it would need continuous proofing to stay sharp and safe


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

rick smith said:


> ia "green, partially trained PPD" would only be a red flag for me
> ... but of course it all depends on what you consider a sufficiently trained "PPD"
> ...imo for that type of dog, the training would never stop and it would need continuous proofing to stay sharp and safe


Over the years, the term "green" dog has changed dramatically. Green used to mean, adult dog, pulled out of someones back yard or kennel. The military rarely purchased dogs from vendors and most of the adult dogs they purchased had virtually no training other than some very basic obediance. Now green is measured in the amount of training a dog has had. 

DFrost


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Brad Trull said:


> Spend the extra 1k on the " green" dog or buy the pup and then make the drive , investment hoping the dog works out ?.


I'm not sure where you are buying your dog, but most "green" dogs I see are a lot more than 1K more than a pup. I am specifically talking about Malinois, so maybe it varies from breed to breed, but pups run in the 800-1500 range, and green dogs that I see for sale, or know people who are selling are 4,000 and up.

Once in awhile you find one cheaper, but there is normally a reason why.

IMO the pup vs green dog is really a personal decision. I know people who love the puppy raising process, and would prefer to purchase a pup just because they want it raised a specific way. Others prefer the "sure thing" aspect of buying an adult dog who you can test, and know what you are getting. For others the finances come into play, they can't afford to buy an adult, they just don't have that amount of money all at one time. And others look at it from the opposite side and figure they can't afford to NOT buy an adult (ie the risk of having to pay for multiple pups, the cost to raise it, train it, do the health checks, then have to start over).


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

For me a green dog is still a dog without any training. Maybe know how to sit on command and to come, and maybe had 3 bites on a sleeve. Here it is about a 1000 difference (euro that is) max. 
But than again i'm bad in business i guess, never sold an dog for 4 k(euro).


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Tssk,just saw on fb somebody asking $5000 ex shipping for an 18 mo dog, sure it can be nice but not in 5000 yrs..... Is the world gone mad? For a good ph 1 certified dog yes, but this? Or i really am bad in business.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

To many think a high price tag means you'll get a better dog. ](*,)
One of my best dogs was one I picked up at the pound.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> To many think a high price tag means you'll get a better dog. ](*,)
> One of my best dogs was one I picked up at the pound.


I am almost ashamed to admit it was a dutch who asked it..


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## herman williams (Nov 23, 2011)

if you are looking for a PPdog , it is not about age,price or training, but about the available qualities in the dog , unfortunately good PPD prospects are hard to come by , most offered dogs are not suitable and will let you down when bitingequipment is out of sight
I was talking to a police K9 handler yesterday and he said to me , attack me, I did and his dog did nothing at all
this is the result of ball and preydrive hype blowing trough the workingdogworld for years already
If they keep up the good work all suitable for personal protection will be a gun


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

I have a funny feeling that dog you saw yesterday didnt have much or any prey drive at all


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Brad Trull said:


> Spend the extra 1k on the " green" dog or buy the pup and then make the drive , investment hoping the dog works out ?
> 
> .


 
for reference - cck9 advertise around $85000 for a trained dog + expenses.


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> for reference - cck9 advertise around $85000 for a trained dog + expenses.


That's nothing. Executive guard dogs start at $250,000, but they come with a SchHIII and some private lessons.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

dam, i thought my example was in the maximum madness scale.

oh well, if ya got that kind of money for a dog ......


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/12/us/12dogs.html?pagewanted=all

Sorry, I was a little overzealous in my pricing. But when she has the same exact skills as the SEAL team 6 dog, who's to argue?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I ran across another place selling "elite protection dogs" on the PDB.

some of the dogs listed were 8-12 months old, but somehow trained to the ultimate "elite" level of protection, so you can be confident that you are getting the ULTIMATE in protection, and the kicker is that they can be purchased for the LOW price of $12,000, which is actually a steal in the "elite" protection dog market.

CCk9 prices for pups are 

8 weeks 1500.00 (actually not super expensive, all things considered.

4 months 3500.00

6 months 6500.00

12 months 10,000

and the adult pricing


Elite Family Estate Protection Dog *	$65,000-$85,000 USD
Executive Protection Dog *	$25,000-$45,000 USD
Executive Protection Dog 3 Day Handling Course	Included
Elite Family Estate Protection Dog 4 Day Handling Course	Included
Personal delivery is available within the United States and to most international locations.

_We consider personal delivery essential in order to insure a smooth transition. *We therefore include the labor for delivery in the purchase of all of our fully trained dogs*. The labor includes two trainers personally delivering your dog, acclimating him or her to your home and family, customizing the training as needed as well as providing handling instruction. *The expenses of airfare, hotel and car rental are the responsibility of the buyer.*
*
**Additional days can be purchased for $1,200.00 per day, per trainer*
_

so the labor of the transport is actually free, as long as you pay the airfare/hotel/car when you spend a paltry minimum of 25,000. AND if you need to have the two professional trainers stay an extra day, it is only $2400.00 per day..


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

UPDATE!!!!

CCK9 also has an elite litter coming up:

"This litter will be whelped in an undisclosed isolated area with 24 hour surveillance camera with armed security guards. If one is interested in this extraordinary litter, please feel free to contact us."

I might be being cynical here but I detect some small level of irony here...help me figure this out...

They have a stable full of elite family guard and protection dogs, ranging in price to upwards of 100,000. That are selling dogs to protect the rich and famous and there families from harm..... 

but 1 litter of puppies needs to be whelped in an undisclosed isolated area, with 24 hour surveillance and around the clock armed security guards...

is that not ironic? you are to trust your family with just 1 of their dogs, but they cannot trust their own litter to be protected by their stable of dogs?

I do guess though when you have a litter as elite as that breeding, someone might hire a hit team of foreign mercenaries to come and storm the place, with explosives and MP5's to steal them, so I now retract my earlier unfounded cynicism..


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Brad. on a more serious note, what do you mean specifically when you say PP dog? what breeds are you looking at? and what is your living and family situation... these factors can influence things greatly....


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## Martin Espericueta (Apr 1, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> UPDATE!!!!
> 
> CCK9 also has an elite litter coming up:
> 
> ...


That's funny Joby! Well, with just the profit of ONE of their dogs, they can afford 24 hour armed security.

Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk 2


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

"_We consider personal delivery essential in order to insure a smooth transition".
_
Does this mean they don't want you to come see their kennels. :-k :-k
Not saying it's so here but in Missouri (puppy mill capitol of the U.S.) the news paper adds will say "Meet you half way to save you some gas". RUN!

​


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Tssk,just saw on fb somebody asking $5000 ex shipping for an 18 mo dog, sure it can be nice but not in 5000 yrs..... Is the world gone mad? For a good ph 1 certified dog yes, but this? Or i really am bad in business.


I'm surprised you weren't aware of these prices, they have been fairly common here for a few years now. There is a lot of demand for good young dogs, more demand than supply at least in my area. I have people contact me on a regular basis looking for a young adult for either sport or police, and I know of almost nothing suitable for sale. I don't know about the ad you saw, but the prices I've been quoting are also US dollars, not Euro, 4000 EU right now is $5000+

I don't think they are out of line either though. Pups run 800-1500 at 8 weeks. Then add in the money and time it takes to raise the pup up to 10-14 months in terms of feed, vet care, health checks and the final profit isn't really that much per dog, and especially not that much per hour of work put into the dog. It's a couple thousand but then you have to figure in the risk, not all dogs are going to pass the health checks or grow up saleable, many buyers require a replacement gaurantee, etc. some of the profit on one dog is covering the costs that were put into another dog that didn't cut it.

Something else to consider is that even if dogs are cheaper in Europe, by the time you pay to ship them here to the US the prices are a lot higher. A friend recently imported an adult from France and paid 1200 EU for shipping and other fees.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> "_We consider personal delivery essential in order to insure a smooth transition".
> _
> Does this mean they don't want you to come see their kennels. :-k :-k
> Not saying it's so here but in Missouri (puppy mill capitol of the U.S.) the news paper adds will say "Meet you half way to save you some gas". RUN!
> ...


_
"Does this mean they don't want you to come see their kennels."_

I believe it does. 

JMO!


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

I know Kadi, but i still can find it ridiculous. I have to raise my puppy price due a taxes raise from 19 till 21% (vat), so i can't hold my 350 euro for a pup, and i feel bad about it.
Shipping is getting really expensive, 600/1100 depending on state for an adult.
On the other hand the euro is dropping, good for you..not for us.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> I know Kadi, but i still can find it ridiculous. I have to raise my puppy price due a taxes raise from 19 till 21% (vat), so i can't hold my 350 euro for a pup, and i feel bad about it.
> Shipping is getting really expensive, 600/1100 depending on state for an adult.
> On the other hand the euro is dropping, good for you..not for us.


It's a goofy world. When I first started breeding Malinois I sold pups for 350-400. There were a few other breeders, mainly targeting Sch, who were selling for around 1000 because that's what GSD, Rotts, Dobes, etc were going for in Sch at the time. I actually raised my prices because I had people asking me why my pups were so cheap, they thought the 1000 puppy MUST be higher quality because it was more expensive. I told them if it would make them feel better I could charge them $1000 for my $400 pup, ended up basically doubling my prices at the time. Now things are so expensive, like vet care, food, training, gas, etc the higher price makes sense, but 15+ years ago it was just because people felt better paying more :-o


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## Derek Milliken (Apr 19, 2009)

@ Joby, you missed one of the better points on the CCK9 site. For 85K, the dog you're buying will actually do an "extended down-stay". Who could have thought?

@ both Selena and Kadi, any time either one of you want to undersell one of your puppies and give them away for a few hundred bucks, my money is waiting. Selena, I hope to renew my european passport and meet you soon. Kadi, I saw you're an apprentice USMRA judge, so hopefully that will lead to us meeting soon.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Derek Milliken said:


> @ Joby, you missed one of the better points on the CCK9 site. For 85K, the dog you're buying will actually do an "extended down-stay". Who could have thought?
> 
> @ both Selena and Kadi, any time either one of you want to undersell one of your puppies and give them away for a few hundred bucks, my money is waiting. Selena, I hope to renew my european passport and meet you soon. Kadi, I saw you're an apprentice USMRA judge, so hopefully that will lead to us meeting soon.


I have emailed them to inquire about pricing on the heavily guarded super litter, to see how much more they are than the other regular super puppies, used a Gmail account to be more professional


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Derek it is my actual price for 7 wk old ;-)


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Selena, seriously you should get on this shopping trolley, yr wash outs could go to good rich homes, do the task and you could use the profit to expand yr program or give to charity. 

I'm no business advisor but would like to see this unwanted cash flow to some good guys for a change.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Selena, seriously you should get on this shopping trolley, yr wash outs could go to good rich homes, do the task and you could use the profit to expand yr program or give to charity.
> 
> I'm no business advisor but would like to see this unwanted cash flow to some good guys for a change.


Pete, I am not speaking for Selena, but I doubt rich idiot american families are gonna be qualified to handle their dogs, for the most part.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Selena, seriously you should get on this shopping trolley, yr wash outs could go to good rich homes, do the task and you could use the profit to expand yr program or give to charity.
> 
> I'm no business advisor but would like to see this unwanted cash flow to some good guys for a change.


Lol, i give away my wash outs I just want them in a good home. The breeding females who may retire are also going to a good home. Only if people want to work them or breed with them 1/2 litter i sell them for what we consider a reasonable price.

I/we aren't in this for the money, it is a hobby which got (too) big (and now is about an 15/20 hr "job" next to our ft jobs & kids).The "profit " we make for our litters makes up for about few months of dogfood.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I'm not sure where you are buying your dog, but most "green" dogs I see are a lot more than 1K more than a pup. I am specifically talking about Malinois, so maybe it varies from breed to breed, but pups run in the 800-1500 range, and green dogs that I see for sale, or know people who are selling are 4,000 and up.
> 
> Once in awhile you find one cheaper, but there is normally a reason why.
> 
> IMO the pup vs green dog is really a personal decision. I know people who love the puppy raising process, and would prefer to purchase a pup just because they want it raised a specific way. Others prefer the "sure thing" aspect of buying an adult dog who you can test, and know what you are getting. For others the finances come into play, they can't afford to buy an adult, they just don't have that amount of money all at one time. And others look at it from the opposite side and figure they can't afford to NOT buy an adult (ie the risk of having to pay for multiple pups, the cost to raise it, train it, do the health checks, then have to start over).


Just on the flip side. heres what I have seen selling both. I have kept some dogs back and raised them. as a breeder, I cannot wait to retire from my coast guard career and start raising pups. I will proabably only allow accomplished handlers to buy pups from me then. It's just safer for the dogs. 

It does not seem puppies are gamble....it seems handlers gamble with puppies....they do stupid shit and ruin them. or they fail to set clear boundries in parenting the dog. 


Every green dog I sold has transistioned much easier into the care of their handler than a pup.

People have a helluva time with puppies...even working dog people. Training a dog, and raising a pup are two different sciences. 

So, a benefit is, I think it's easier for a new handler to handle a dog, than a pup. I know it is.


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## Sally Crunkleton (Jan 13, 2012)

James Downey said:


> ...I will proabably only allow accomplished handlers to buy pups from me then. It's just safer for the dogs.
> 
> People have a helluva time with puppies...even working dog people. Training a dog, and raising a pup are two different sciences.
> 
> So, a benefit is, I think it's easier for a new handler to handle a dog, than a pup. I know it is.


Just out of curiosity, and not trying to start a huge debate- what would you say qualifies someone to be an accomplished handler?

I understand that novice handlers may need a dog that can "guide" them, so to speak- but when you refer to boundaries and the challenges of raising a puppy, are you talking about the average pet owner who has no clue about housebreaking, chewing, learning it's place, etc? Again, just curious. This topic interests me.


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## Brad Trull (Apr 9, 2012)

Joby Becker said:


> Brad. on a more serious note, what do you mean specifically when you say PP dog? what breeds are you looking at? and what is your living and family situation... these factors can influence things greatly....



Thanks for all the replies 

Joby -- I am more interested in Personal protection aspect of training. My GSD is 9 yr old and is an alert lvl dog. He suits my families and I needs , living in rural Indiana, teenage boys ,personal carry permits. 

Before . I signed up for the working dog forums. I poked around the web and wow , prices of even pet GSD's have doubled in the last 6 yrs.

To me a "green" dog is 12-24 month yr old prospect that has some basic OB and some lvl of basic bitework / decoy exposure; that can be finished by the new owner/handler with more seasoning .

I am obviously off by 3K$ or so . I dont think the euro will fall that much below parity to bring down prices of euro dogs 

Got my GSD at a rescue 



regards


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Two points from here, money doesn't give you a good PPD, quality training and genetics do. The advantage of a puppy, YOU are doing the foundation work and know the issues which may be within!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Brad Trull said:


> Thanks for all the replies
> 
> Joby -- I am more interested in Personal protection aspect of training. My GSD is 9 yr old and is an alert lvl dog. He suits my families and I needs , living in rural Indiana, teenage boys ,personal carry permits.
> 
> ...


If you want to by a pup. Try to do your best to make sure the breeding is going to produce a dog that brings real aggression in the work, has a civil side, and good fighting behaviors.. if you want to get a dog that may seriously be used in a PP role, and not just do some bitework on the weekends...


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

3000 $ for à green dog. That is CRAZY.
Over her you get à Mali that is x-rayd free hips elbows and back and also past the intro test for police work for less than that.
If you want à GSD I think you can get it for 15-2000. Ofcaus basic Ob and house broken also.
You prices are of the Wall. I talkt to some peopel on her about X-Malis and they want lika 1200-2000 for à PUP  I can drive to Holland ore belgiun and ger one for 250-300


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

andreas broqvist said:


> I can drive to Holland ore belgiun and ger one for 250-300


 But you are also paying for genetics. How dogs are trained and kept is different and they aren't viewed the same as in the States. 250-300 EU or dollars?


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

andreas broqvist said:


> I can drive to Holland ore belgiun and ger one for 250-300



I'll bet there are lots more breeders over there compared to here, too. That in itself has to drive the price way down.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Jackie Lockard said:


> I'll bet there are lots more breeders over there compared to here, too. That in itself has to drive the price way down.


WAY more breeders. More buyers also, but just a single country like France, Belgium, etc produces more working pups in a year than the entire US. Especially in Malinois, not sure where the GSD numbers stand exactly.

In addition they can drive somewhere and pick up a pup. In the US, how many people actually live within driving distance of the breeder of their dog(s)? Driving distance being you can get there, and back, in a single day. Not "well I can drive there, it will just take 2+ days to make the trip". Then add to that the cost, if someone wants to save purchase money by buying in Europe, of shipping that pup to the US and suddenly that 250-300 EU pup is costing 1000-1500 US or more. Not to mention with some breeders in Europe, that 250-300 EU pup is the price for Europeans, I know quite a few people who have bought pups in Europe for 1000 US plus the shipping.

Add in the price of raising the pup (food, vet care, training fees, gas to training, etc) and by the time it's a young adult 3000 as a selling price doesn't even really cover the money into it, forget about profits. Just in gas alone I spend anywhere from 30-40.00 each time I go train, depending on the location I train at. Do that twice a week for a year, and you have spent on the low end 3,000 just in gas for the training. I know people who aren't driving quite as far, but I know many others who drive even further.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

andreas broqvist said:


> I can drive to Holland ore belgiun and ger one for 250-300


 
I don't know about Holland, but in Belgium you won't find a pup for 250-300 Euro anymore.
I'd say at least 350 Euro and if you want a FCI registered pup, it will be more because their paperwork is more expensive.

Prices for green dogs vary. All depends on the dog and how much you want to spend. A good green dog is expensive.

Joâo paid 2.500 Euro for A'Tim and this was end nineties. Too much for an 18mths old that knew nothing. All he could do was bite. But he proved to be worth every single Euro.

Sometimes you can buy a dog with basic training for 1.500 Euro, but mostly there are some surprises afterwards...


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

I prefer a pup. We bought older dogs more then once, but the only one that lived up to what we expected was A'Tim. All the others were ok but not 100% what we wanted even though we knew most of them before we bought them.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Martine Loots said:


> I don't know about Holland, but in Belgium you won't find a pup for 250-300 Euro anymore.
> I'd say at least 350 Euro and if you want a FCI registered pup, it will be more because their paperwork is more expensive.
> ..


There are still pups KNPV lined pups for 250 euro, but 300 is getting more common. Our 350 was expensive 5/6yrs ago, but havent changed the price since. fci mali are around 700 euro, fci ds around 550.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

A dog is worth whatever someone is willing to pay.

I just saw a dog that someone sold for 7k. Then they went and worked it..... The decoy gave it a bite and the handler starts yelling, "you gotta craddle him, and push here, and pull that....and don't look and turn your body. Stick low, sleeve high....and on and on." The Decoy, without missing a beat, stops and says, "If I bought a dog for Seven K. I should only have to do one thing when the dog bites." The handler says, " what's that". The decoy says, "Smile". 


But the Decoy and handler are worlds apart on what they think a 7 thousand dollar dog looks like.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

James Downey said:


> "If I bought a dog for Seven K. I should only have to do one thing when the dog bites." The handler says, " what's that". The decoy says, "Smile".


:mrgreen: so true


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Brad Trull said:


> I am curious for some opinions on this, and not a monetary value( initial outlay for prospect ) , but from a practical stand point . Which is better for a person wanting a PPD and having limited access to quality decoys?
> 
> Spend the extra 1k on the " green" dog or buy the pup and then make the drive , investment hoping the dog works out ?
> 
> ...


Real dam simple for ya, and this is because I got nothing better to do while hanging right now.

1. If ya know how to pick a pup or know someone you trust to do it for ya then thats one thing.
2. You got to know what to do with that pup once you do get it.
3. If you dont know how to properly raise and train one or just don't have time do to family and work constraints, come off the hip and buy a older one with some work to make up for your lack of having a clue to whats going on.
4. If your still lost then spend the money and buy a finished dog, but your imperfections will still show but not as bad as if you tried it from a pup, unless you know what your doing ( cant make that assumption cause I dont know ya ).

Good luck to ya, but theres the answer that your looking for I would assume.;-)

*** To add to number 3, thats if you also cant get a true experience working dog man to also help you out ( then you stand a better chance fella ), OK now good luck to ya ***


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

If you are going to buy a green dog what things would you look for when testing it? 
If you are selling a green dog what do you let the buyer do while testing it? What happens if the buyer is a donkey and say hits him with a beer bottle and says he isnt tuff enuff?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Daniel Lybbert said:


> If you are going to buy a green dog what things would you look for when testing it?
> If you are selling a green dog what do you let the buyer do while testing it? What happens if the buyer is a donkey and say hits him with a beer bottle and says he isnt tuff enuff?


that would vary I think from function to function and person to person.

as far as what a buyer would be able to do for testing, that would also vary, but hit the dog with a beer bottle? not likely.


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## Derek Milliken (Apr 19, 2009)

@Martine, I'd like to add you to what I said to both Selena and Kadi earlier, for only a few hundred euros, I'll be right over to pick up my Fun daughter. He looks like an excellent dog.

It's amazing the price difference Europe vs North America. Every day I see (shitter) puppies sold for $1500 over here. And only 40% of that for a good puppy from a couple of breeders I really like.
Where's the wall so I can go knock my head against it? ](*,)


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

What are you guys basing your European prices on? Non FCI dogs in Belgium and Holland? I can get dogs with no papers for $300 or less right here in the US. Ask your Belgian or Dutch broker to put some papers on the puppy and your price is just about the same as the rest of Europe and the US. 





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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Derek Milliken said:


> It's amazing the price difference Europe vs North America. Every day I see (shitter) puppies sold for $1500 over here. And only 40% of that for a good puppy from a couple of breeders I really like.
> Where's the wall so I can go knock my head against it? ](*,)


And you can find "shitter" puppies sold for that in Europe. Derek have you ever been to dog clubs in Europe? 


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

But you are seling non FCI dogs for 1500 right?

The dogs we are talking about is KNPV line pups for 350-400.
Dogs like Selenas dogs. No 1 gen breed krosses with no background.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

andreas broqvist said:


> But you are seling non FCI dogs for 1500 right?
> 
> The dogs we are talking about is KNPV line pups for 350-400.
> Dogs like Selenas dogs. No 1 gen breed krosses with no background.


what?
first generation breed crosses with no background?
Dogs like Selena's dogs?


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

I did not think I was that unclear. 

We are talking about dogs like Selenas dogs. KNPV dogs. With à clear history and tested parents they go for 350.

NOT first gen breed crosses!


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Also not the Chris I thaugt it was. I thaugt It was the other Chris so just forget the first coment.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

andreas broqvist said:


> I did not think I was that unclear.
> 
> We are talking about dogs like Selenas dogs. KNPV dogs. With à clear history and tested parents they go for 350.
> 
> NOT first gen breed crosses!


misunderstood, though you meant No.1 (as in number 1) generation crosses, with no backgrounds...


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

As someone who prefers to get my dogs as puppies and raise them the way I like so I can know exactly how they were trained and not have to wonder about what "baggage" they might have, I would still have to say I would choose a green dog as a PPD candidate if that was my goal for my dog. In a PPD, I am not concerned about having precise, flashy obedience, amazing entries or perfect grips. I want a dog that I know will protect me, no matter what. And I just don't think that's something you can see in a puppy, nor something you can manufacture through training. If you're set on a puppy, you can stack the deck in your favor by doing your homework and going with a puppy from lines or repeat breedings that produce the qualities you're looking for. And you can spend time building that puppy up to be a suitable PPD. But in the end, you can't be sure your time and money will be well spent. However, if done properly, you can thoroughly test a green PPD prospect and be a lot more confident that you are getting a suitable dog.


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