# FCI registered Dutch Vs. Unregistered.



## eugene ramirez (Jun 22, 2010)

Is there still hope for the FCI registered Dutch Shepherds? 

What is the current level of FCI DS? Are there breeders, trainers and competitors that have worked with unregistered DS previously who is now also working with FCI registered DS?

Please give us your input if you want.

thanks


----------



## Jerry Cudahy (Feb 18, 2010)

Registered Dutchies is almost an Oxymoron. 

Cross bred dogs are the norm.


----------



## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

There has been a big influx of KNPV Dutchies getting fake FCI pedigrees in the last 5 years. I was told by one of the guys doing it that they believe DNA is comming in the next few years so they needed to get as many in now as they can. This will help a bit but still will not fix the FCI dogs. Only a few people know the real pedigrees and so the average breeder of FCI dogs will be flying blind. Once DNA testing does come in, and it will, then the FCI dogs will be stuck in their genepool. There are 3/4 brothers and sisters of my male Boy with full FCI pedigrees now. Yes they are good dogs, with good genetcis. But what happens when they get bred to dogs with a high % of real FCI dogs? The quality goes down big time. 
I dont really care about people doing this, its been going on with Malis for much longer and if the unregistered NVBK and KNPV dogs were not brought into the FCI genepool then the quality of the FCI Malis would be way different. What does shit me is stupid, uneducated and ignorant people who own and breed both FCI Malis and Dutchies who then turn around and call the unregistered KNPV and NVBK dogs "Mongrels", when their own dogs contain these same mongrels in their bloodlines.


----------



## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

DS with creative papers have been around for decades. And the sky is not falling. Where there is a will there is a way. Good Dutchies and Mals will always be bred, regardless of paperwork.


----------



## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

the other big problem that would / will happen is this. Even if they started with the strongest 100% pure KNPV lines fom Arko, Wibo, Rudie, etc and they put fake papers directly on those dogs it would only be a matter of time before they still ruined the breed because they dont put the priority where it should be (working) instead just like any other breed, they care too much about color, size, earset, topline, etc and next thing you know they have lost the most important thing that should be bred for.
I have seen some beautiful offspring from Arko, Rudie, and Wibo that were very dark, very correct in size and structure that were shitty workers but the FCI folks would breed to those dogs before they would use the much stronger dogs from those same lines who happpened to be blue in color maybe, or light brindle, or tan colored, or black for example. It is not no much the bloodlines as much as it is the mindset of the FCI breeders in my opinion.


----------



## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Christopher Jones said:


> I dont really care about people doing this, its been going on with Malis for much longer and if the unregistered NVBK and KNPV dogs were not brought into the FCI genepool then the quality of the FCI Malis would be way different. What does shit me is stupid, uneducated and ignorant people who own and breed both FCI Malis and Dutchies who then turn around and call the unregistered KNPV and NVBK dogs "Mongrels", when their own dogs contain these same mongrels in their bloodlines.


There is a difference between the NVBK and KNPV dogs. First, the NVBK dogs are registered, that's what the NVBK is, a registry. Just not one the FCI recognizes. NVBK dogs are also not "mongrels", I don't believe it's common in the NVBK dogs at all to cross breed. They breed purebred, just not FCI recognized. It is common in the KNPV dogs to cross breed, they are just as correctly called "Mongrels" as "Malinois".


----------



## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

I do know of some NVBK breeders who use mixed KNPV dogs in there lines for sure, wether they put it on paper or not.


----------



## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

If we look at it like this. Ther are wery strong FCI lines of mali. They are used only for sport ore workingdogs. Ther is also a show FCI line. Thos are like smal uggly collies with short necks. The mixin ing between is wery smal. Somtimes the show peopel use a working dog to better the show dogs temp. I have never seen the other way around, To make a working dog "look nice :"

In the GSD its difernet.

Downt you think that ther wuld be a real pure working line of DS to. The show dogs will still be as they wher, and the mixes between half KNPV dogs and KNPV dogs will result in more ore less Only KNPV dogs as the working DS. Like it is for most part in the working mali??


----------



## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> I do know of some NVBK breeders who use mixed KNPV dogs in there lines for sure, wether they put it on paper or not.


Ditto! They absolutely do for sure. Long before this registry malarchie (sp) popped up my understanding is that the people of that region (mostly near the borders of those regions; France, Belgium, Germany, Holland) would breed into and out of one another's dogs frequently. If they were good herders and guard dogs they would breed. Nothing new under the sun. So, who knows what was in there before your dogs registry pooped up. Ooops! I meant popped up! LOL


----------



## eugene ramirez (Jun 22, 2010)

andreas broqvist said:


> If we look at it like this. Ther are wery strong FCI lines of mali. They are used only for sport ore workingdogs. Ther is also a show FCI line. Thos are like smal uggly collies with short necks. The mixin ing between is wery smal. Somtimes the show peopel use a working dog to better the show dogs temp. I have never seen the other way around, To make a working dog "look nice :"
> 
> In the GSD its difernet.
> 
> Downt you think that ther wuld be a real pure working line of DS to. The show dogs will still be as they wher, and the mixes between half KNPV dogs and KNPV dogs will result in more ore less Only KNPV dogs as the working DS. Like it is for most part in the working mali??


Hi Andrea, 
what your saying is that within the FCI registry, there exist two distinct category, one show and the other working. In the case of FCI Mals, though there has been some mixture, except for the GDs, the FCI line remains strong? Is that what your saying? I am just trying to understand. Thanks


----------



## eugene ramirez (Jun 22, 2010)

Christopher Jones said:


> There has been a big influx of KNPV Dutchies getting fake FCI pedigrees in the last 5 years. I was told by one of the guys doing it that they believe DNA is comming in the next few years so they needed to get as many in now as they can. This will help a bit but still will not fix the FCI dogs. Only a few people know the real pedigrees and so the average breeder of FCI dogs will be flying blind. Once DNA testing does come in, and it will, then the FCI dogs will be stuck in their genepool. There are 3/4 brothers and sisters of my male Boy with full FCI pedigrees now. Yes they are good dogs, with good genetcis. But what happens when they get bred to dogs with a high % of real FCI dogs? The quality goes down big time.





Christopher Smith said:


> DS with creative papers have been around for decades. And the sky is not falling. Where there is a will there is a way. Good Dutchies and Mals will always be bred, regardless of paperwork.





mike suttle said:


> I do know of some NVBK breeders who use mixed KNPV dogs in there lines for sure, wether they put it on paper or not.


So if it has been a common practice to creative cause papers to appear to suit their needs or purpose? If they have been doing this for decades... In reality, the line between the registered and unregistered in not as clear as many have imagine. 

If there exist two categories within the FCI registry according to Andrea, show and working, is the registry to be blamed? Could it be a contributing factor that the KNPV program has attracted many top breeders and trainers because of the culture that was created from it's genesis? To produce the kind of dogs it produce now, papers or no papers?

These are only food for thought, I could be way off the mark. I hope more insight can be given by those in the know from those regions; France, Belgium, Germany, Holland...


----------



## kristin tresidder (Oct 23, 2008)

mike suttle said:


> It is not no much the bloodlines as much as it is the mindset of the FCI breeders in my opinion.


Selection is everything. All breeds/dogs with a purpose are built through selections. If 'FCI' breeders selected first and foremost for strong working dogs, even within their closed gene pool, I am sure they could have dogs on par with the 'working' dogs in awhile. As another poster said, where there's a will, there's a way. You just have to want it bad enough and be willing to work & sacrifice for it.


----------



## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> the other big problem that would / will happen is this. Even if they started with the strongest 100% pure KNPV lines fom Arko, Wibo, Rudie, etc and they put fake papers directly on those dogs it would only be a matter of time before they still ruined the breed because they dont put the priority where it should be (working) instead just like any other breed, they care too much about color, size, earset, topline, etc and next thing you know they have lost the most important thing that should be bred for.
> I have seen some beautiful offspring from Arko, Rudie, and Wibo that were very dark, very correct in size and structure that were shitty workers but the FCI folks would breed to those dogs before they would use the much stronger dogs from those same lines who happpened to be blue in color maybe, or light brindle, or tan colored, or black for example. It is not no much the bloodlines as much as it is the mindset of the FCI breeders in my opinion.





just like with Am Staffs


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Matt Grosch said:


> just like with Am Staffs


Presa Canario...and a host of other "working breeds"..


----------



## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> Presa Canario...and a host of other "working breeds"..


I dont see that, the am staff came from a large pool of actual working dogs and turned into a strain that became all looks and no ability


presas, bandogs, CC's, etc where never anything and never did anything, just recent mastiff-pitt creations where working ability is not the main focus by far, they were never in the game and never will be


----------



## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

best thing would be if there were no FCI or show registry at all, then there would be no negative, weakening influence at all


----------



## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Just out of curiosity..How do knpv dogs like Berry II and Victor (claassen) get NVBK papers?


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

will fernandez said:


> Just out of curiosity..How do knpv dogs like Berry II and Victor (claassen) get NVBK papers?


 bought in belgium O


----------



## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

will fernandez said:


> Just out of curiosity..How do knpv dogs like Berry II and Victor (claassen) get NVBK papers?


 The NVBK is an open regsitry. You can register any Malinois without a pedigree with them and they will just put XXXXXXX for all the ancestors. They were even willing to register my Dutch Shepherds in the same way.


----------



## eugene ramirez (Jun 22, 2010)

Matt Grosch said:


> best thing would be if there were no FCI or show registry at all, then there would be no negative, weakening influence at all


@Matt, having no rule / regulations, registry may or may not be the problem. That idea is definitely open for discussion. 

For example in Mondioring, on a national level, there is no need for your dog to be part of the FCI registry, but once one wants for compete at the international competitions, FCI rules come in play. Of course for some people, if their dogs are that good, they magically produce papers early on.

If one examines and compare the impact of having regulations in UFC, to any high level sport, be it soccer, NBA, baseball, etc., even the Olympics. Rules are necessary and important, not to have them at this level would be crazy to say the least. Sorry if these sport comparisons does not fit exactly the discussion.

I think it still it goes back to the original goals and purpose, and the people behind any organization. It the problems are too big to solve, either change the rules, or change the people making the rules.


----------



## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

eugene ramirez said:


> @Matt, having no rule / regulations, registry may or may not be the problem. That idea is definitely open for discussion.
> 
> For example in Mondioring, on a national level, there is no need for your dog to be part of the FCI registry, but once one wants for compete at the international competitions, FCI rules come in play. Of course for some people, if their dogs are that good, they magically produce papers early on.
> 
> ...


The problem is not rules in general but which rules. When ever you have an animal used for a purpose and the first rule doesn't start with his ability to do his job you are going to have trouble. in every registry they start with what the dog looks like. if your border collie can't herd it is not a border collie. in sports they only want to know if you can do your job. that is why they don't require sports players to get a college degrees.


----------



## Mircea Hemu-Ha (Nov 24, 2009)

IMO, if people want big, scary dogs, with weak temperament, so they can handle them and not have to actually work with them, this is what breeders will breed for. It's not a machiavelian plan, it's the market demand. I have nothing against those people, don't get me wrong, but i believe this is what FCI is for and it's doing a good job at it.

I think the unregistered dogs/working lines/NVBK are better off staying this way, not a lot of people know them or want them, and most of those who do, know what they get and stride to breed for better working puppies, and the working breed lives on.

Once they get papers, they get bred to weaker dogs (for the most part), and their puppies will be chosen to have little drives, no aggression and not be "dominant". Those who won't fit, will mostly get neutered and/or will be news-worthy in a couple of years (and will not be bred inside the FCI) or will be sold as guard dogs/PD/etc. and, again, will not be bred inside the FCI.

So why should they have FCI papers and be subject to other breeding standards ? It seams to me they would only serve to increase the FCI gene pool with the same type of genes (a good thing, ok), but we would be destroying those that make them good working dogs.


----------



## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> I do know of some NVBK breeders who use mixed KNPV dogs in there lines for sure, wether they put it on paper or not.



I think I know who you are talking about, but I don't know of any *good *breeder doing this (speaking of the last 2 decades here).
I do know some who did it but I wouldn't exactly call those good and respected breeders... I still have to see the first dog of their breeding even getting average results.

I'm not saying at all that KNPV dogs are not as good. 
Only stating that the hard core breeders stick to the NVBK lines because this gives the best results for our discipline (line breeding).


----------



## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Zakia Days said:


> Ditto! *They absolutely do for sure*. Long before this registry malarchie (sp) popped up my understanding is that the people of that region (mostly near the borders of those regions; France, Belgium, Germany, Holland)* would breed into and out of one another's dogs frequently*. If they were good herders and guard dogs they would breed. Nothing new under the sun. So, who knows what was in there before your dogs registry pooped up. Ooops! I meant popped up! LOL


No they don't


----------



## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

It's funny reading people write whatever THEY think is going on with absolutely zero knowledge or proof. Just type it out cause you believe it to be the facts!


----------



## eugene ramirez (Jun 22, 2010)

Martine Loots said:


> I think I know who you are talking about, but I don't know of any *good *breeder doing this (speaking of the last 2 decades here).
> I do know some who did it but I wouldn't exactly call those good and respected breeders... I still have to see the first dog of their breeding even getting average results.
> 
> I'm not saying at all that KNPV dogs are not as good.
> Only stating that the hard core breeders stick to the NVBK lines because this gives the best results for our discipline (line breeding).


Thanks for the clarification to the rate and extent of it's occurrence.


----------



## eugene ramirez (Jun 22, 2010)

Martine Loots said:


> I think I know who you are talking about, but I don't know of any *good *breeder doing this (speaking of the last 2 decades here).
> I do know some who did it but I wouldn't exactly call those good and respected breeders... I still have to see the first dog of their breeding even getting average results.
> 
> I'm not saying at all that KNPV dogs are not as good.
> Only stating that the hard core breeders stick to the NVBK lines because this gives the best results for our discipline (line breeding).





Martine Loots said:


> No they don't


Thanks Martine for your input.


----------



## eugene ramirez (Jun 22, 2010)

Timothy Stacy said:


> It's funny reading people write whatever THEY think is going on with absolutely zero knowledge or proof. Just type it out cause you believe it to be the facts!


Yes Timothy, it's amazing how that could happen. But I am wondering how people's perception about what is happening, as common practice with unregistered and registered DS came to be?

The problem with perception, whether fact or fiction, true or false, whatever people perceive is the truth, though it may be baseless, - zero knowledge or proof - is the truth to those people.

But I'm not saying this is intentional or premeditated. Sadly to say, this kind of stereotyping and generalization happens too often.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Matt Grosch said:


> I dont see that, the am staff came from a large pool of actual working dogs and turned into a strain that became all looks and no ability
> 
> 
> presas, bandogs, CC's, etc where never anything and never did anything, just recent mastiff-pitt creations where working ability is not the main focus by far, they were never in the game and never will be


The original, proposed working stock in the early 90's was far different from the proposed show stock in the 90's PRE-STANDARDIZATION as far a presa are concerned. I am familiar with the HYPE. but also know early line dogs that were 17-0 against fighting line pits.. I bought stock out of fighting line stock and dogs that were used in real stock work (bringing down full sized cattle in catch work..(real stock work for presa type dogs). It is subjective i know... but working presa (fighting and cattle catching) were easy to find//prior to FCI "Dogo Canario"...just like true APBT in regards to AST.

it was a "type" of dog physically as opposed to a strict physical phenotype as of today..


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

eugene ramirez said:


> But I am wondering how people's perception about what is happening, as common practice with unregistered and registered DS came to be?


´cause the _*working*_ FCI dutchie have in some degree have KNPV bloodine dogs in their bloodline.....
In the IPO dutchies who are sucesfull for sure ;-)


----------



## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Up until not too long ago the Dutch Shepherd Dog Club of Holland didnt support people even doing IPO with their FCI Dutchies. They believed the Dutch Shepherd was a Herding dog and not a police/sport/military dog. Thats why there is no ZTP's or Korungs or offical club (national or international) bitework events. So yeah, the Offical FCI breeders have done such a great job with the breed. Not.


----------



## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

So, in a nutshell what people are saying is that the Dutch Shepherd in it's original state is just lacking in about everything ?? It has to be bred with other breeds to improve it to a useable state ?

Seems to me the GSD and Mal are still viable in the purebred form even though they both have a show element involved.

What's the deal ??


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

The FCI Dutchie (wiredhaired, long haired and shorthaired) is a very little population. Have to check for exact numbers, but there are no more than about 500 pups a year in all the varieties in the FCI dutchie.

Original genepole of the German, Dutch and Belgian Shepherds are the same.
They were divided in the early 20th century when the standards were put up.


----------



## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> So, in a nutshell what people are saying is that the Dutch Shepherd in it's original state is just lacking in about everything ?? It has to be bred with other breeds to improve it to a useable state ?
> 
> Seems to me the GSD and Mal are still viable in the purebred form even though they both have a show element involved.
> 
> What's the deal ??


Not really. What it means is the pedigreed dogs have been screwed by the show breeders and the breed club. They have not concentrated on working at all. If you go and see what the true show Malis are like then the FCI Dutchie is similar to them. The reality is that there is no real population of DS's in French Ring, none is NVBK and a few shitters in IPO. The only viable gen pool is the KNPV, where they tend to mix them with Malis. 
And if you were to take out the unpedigreed KNPV and NVBK dogs from out of the Mali genepool you would find the shitter to good dog ratio alot different to what it is now. And I personally know of a couple of Rudie Pegge (Dutch Shepherd) sons and daughters who just happen to be Mali in colour that are FCI pedigreed Malis now. Its just the Dutchie is far far less in numbers than the Mali so there is far more of a Mali influence with the DS.
No big deal really.


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Let's me honest here. Dutch Shepherds are just brindle Malinois
anyway


----------



## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Let's me honest here. Dutch Shepherds are just brindle Malinois
> anyway


 
That might be true, look at Rambo Rossum ..people like to refer to him in DS lines, all Mals in the first 4 generations..if the pedigree is correct, so the association is totally with Mals in its source.


----------



## kristin tresidder (Oct 23, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> I am familiar with the HYPE. but also know early line dogs that were 17-0 against fighting line pits...


And how big were the fish they caught?


----------



## jan reuvekamp (Oct 9, 2006)

Christopher Jones said:


> Up until not too long ago the Dutch Shepherd Dog Club of Holland didnt support people even doing IPO with their FCI Dutchies. They believed the Dutch Shepherd was a Herding dog and not a police/sport/military dog. Thats why there is no ZTP's or Korungs or offical club (national or international) bitework events. So yeah, the Offical FCI breeders have done such a great job with the breed. Not.


We did organise for the last tree years The Open Dutch Championsship for Dutch Sheperd in IPO however!

Jan


----------



## Jhun Brioso (Dec 28, 2009)

eugene ramirez said:


> Is there still hope for the FCI registered Dutch Shepherds?
> 
> What is the current level of FCI DS? Are there breeders, trainers and competitors that have worked with unregistered DS previously who is now also working with FCI registered DS?
> 
> ...


Hi ER.. Good to see you here..


----------



## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

jan reuvekamp said:


> We did organise for the last tree years The Open Dutch Championsship for Dutch Sheperd in IPO however!
> 
> Jan


 Is that official Dutch Shepherd Club organised?


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> That might be true, look at* Rambo Rossum* ..people like to refer to him in DS lines, all Mals in the first 4 generations..if the pedigree is correct, so the association is totally with Mals in its source.


It´s Rambo van Rossum, please spell my maiden name right.

Are you stirring the pot, or do you really don´t get it all?

Again: KNPV bloodlined dogs are named after their coat colour, so malinois for the fawns/yellows, black malinois for the blacks, dutchie for the brindles.

Old DS lines are Nicky Kerkoerle, Robby Buddemeijer (early 70's).


----------



## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

I'm not familiar with DS bloodlines but one thing I know for sure and that is, if I would get a DS I'd sure not go to the FCI bloodlines. I guess it is the same difference there then over here with the mals. Old working lines are the place to be.


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Again: KNPV bloodlined dogs are named after their coat colour, so malinois for the fawns/yellows, black malinois for the blacks, dutchie for the brindles.


So like I said, Dutch Shepherds are just brindle Malinois?  
At least as far as the KNPV lines. The litter Belatucadrus came from had 2/12 Fawn/Mals and 10/12 brindle/DS.


----------



## jan reuvekamp (Oct 9, 2006)

Christopher Jones said:


> Is that official Dutch Shepherd Club organised?


Yes


----------



## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

eugene ramirez said:


> @Matt, having no rule / regulations, registry may or may not be the problem. That idea is definitely open for discussion.
> 
> For example in Mondioring, on a national level, there is no need for your dog to be part of the FCI registry, but once one wants for compete at the international competitions, FCI rules come in play. Of course for some people, if their dogs are that good, they magically produce papers early on.
> 
> ...




I never said no rules, just no show registration (which would be like saying all fighters must have a certificate from some organization in order to fight, and people that didnt come from a traditional martial art, like wrestling, arent eligible)

It can be argued that the knpv dogs are the best in the world, seems pretty weak for any sport to say they couldnt compete without the proper registration (that means there focus is not on finding the best dogs)


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Thomas Barriano said:


> So like I said, Dutch Shepherds are just brindle Malinois?


 Depending on lineage, but there are very few who specifically breed to get brindles... I do see difference in character in de few (black)mals I have had in the litters. But don't think others do as much.


----------



## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> The original, proposed working stock in the early 90's was far different from the proposed show stock in the 90's PRE-STANDARDIZATION as far a presa are concerned. I am familiar with the HYPE. but also know early line dogs that were 17-0 against fighting line pits.. I bought stock out of fighting line stock and dogs that were used in real stock work (bringing down full sized cattle in catch work..(real stock work for presa type dogs). It is subjective i know... but working presa (fighting and cattle catching) were easy to find//prior to FCI "Dogo Canario"...just like true APBT in regards to AST.
> 
> it was a "type" of dog physically as opposed to a strict physical phenotype as of today..





Interesting but I am suspicious since manuel cuerto (the main presa guy on the canary islands) sells the shitiest dogs I have ever seen in my life (and just look at the pics of them in 'Gladiator Dogs', AND the author even commented on something about cuerto not letting him take pics but supplied him with pics he already had), plus you there were only rare exceptions of people doing anything with them, PLUS some of the earliest pics I saw of them (mike harlow 'k9 bodyguards' where am staff looking dogs), PLUS I dont know how many people would believe some shitty dogs from a very small pool fought run by amateurs could every compete (and dominate) the best fighting dogs in the world, sounds as possible as one of the bandogs beating the best mals in ring sport....anything is possible, but as hard to accept as a claim of a kung fu guy kicking the ass of tons of real fighters


----------



## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Let's me honest here. Dutch Shepherds are just brindle Malinois
> anyway



except when they have obvious pit bull, GSD, etc mixed in with them


----------



## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Depending on lineage, but there are very few who specifically breed to get brindles... I do see difference in character in de few (black)mals I have had in the litters. But don't think others do as much.




I remember you saying you saw a difference in the solid/mal's and the brindles but dont remember any discussion about the black mals, please clarify


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Matt Grosch said:


> I remember you saying you saw a difference in the solid/mal's and the brindles but dont remember any discussion about the black mals, please clarify


 I have had more black mals than fawn mals, due to the outcross to Mido in 2005 (Grietje and Anne came from this breeding), so I have had blacks in the 3 Anne litters.

They tend to be a bit more vocal, and add some will -to- please and a tad sharpness (which isn't a bad thing in our lines, we have to be careful that the dogs don't get to "dry"). 

Not very extreme, but there is a difference.


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Matt Grosch said:


> except when they have obvious pit bull, GSD, etc mixed in with them


The DOC in Canon City had a 85lb "Dutch Shepherd".
I don't know what part was DS but the head was all Pit Bull 
If a Guard came along with that dog and told me to get back in my cell. I'd get back in my cell ;-)


----------



## Drew Peirce (Nov 16, 2006)

sounds sweet


----------



## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Matt Grosch said:


> Interesting but I am suspicious since manuel cuerto (the main presa guy on the canary islands) sells the shitiest dogs I have ever seen in my life (and just look at the pics of them in 'Gladiator Dogs', AND the author even commented on something about cuerto not letting him take pics but supplied him with pics he already had), plus you there were only rare exceptions of people doing anything with them, PLUS some of the earliest pics I saw of them (mike harlow 'k9 bodyguards' where am staff looking dogs), PLUS I dont know how many people would believe some shitty dogs from a very small pool fought run by amateurs could every compete (and dominate) the best fighting dogs in the world, sounds as possible as one of the bandogs beating the best mals in ring sport....anything is possible, but as hard to accept as a claim of a kung fu guy kicking the ass of tons of real fighters


Matt

In 2000 I spent some time in the Canary Islands and had a chance to spend a day at Manuel Curto's farm. All the Presa's I saw were nice dogs. Not huge but confident and athletic. He also had some sport GSD's that were fairly decent. I have met few people as passionate about dogs as that man.
I dont know about his dogs now....


----------



## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> It´s Rambo van Rossum, please spell my maiden name right.
> 
> Are you stirring the pot, or do you really don´t get it all?
> 
> ...


No, I'm not trying to stir any pot it's just something that I've always wondered about.

It just seems to me that the Dutch Shepherd as a breed has never been successful in any venue in its original form. The NVBK dogs are represented as purebred Mals and they are very impressive in what they do, the KNPV dogs are impressive as well..I just can't get my head around why they have to be mixed with Mals to accomplish this, I don't think anyone can honestly say one sport is harder than the other.


----------



## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

jan reuvekamp said:


> Yes


The way I read it is that the Championships was ran by LeDobry, with little help or organisation from the NHC.
So why has the Dutch Shepherd dog club only now started promoting IPO? Why have they been so slow to embraise IPO/KNPV etc?


----------



## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

will fernandez said:


> Matt
> 
> In 2000 I spent some time in the Canary Islands and had a chance to spend a day at Manuel Curto's farm. All the Presa's I saw were nice dogs. Not huge but confident and athletic. He also had some sport GSD's that were fairly decent. I have met few people as passionate about dogs as that man.
> I dont know about his dogs now....



tough to accept, look at his 3 studs dog (not impressive)

http://www.iremacurto.com/presacanario/english/ourdogs.htm

some of the dogs below the stud dogs look better (the ones that look like they have more pit bull in them look best), but not as good as the stray pitbulls found in any U.S. southwest poor hispanic neighborhood 

also, has he ever accomplished anything?

and I know a presa breeder (before he got smart and went to red star) that got two from him, both unhealthy and the female would LITERALLY enter a room while cowering and immediately look for a table or something to hide under, and would link to the far side of the room....and this is a guy that told him he wanted a female for sport work and trusted that con man to pick the dog out for him

as far as bandog breeders go, he seems like another that is all hype and no facts, accomplishments, good dogs, etc


----------



## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> No, I'm not trying to stir any pot it's just something that I've always wondered about.
> 
> It just seems to me that the Dutch Shepherd as a breed has never been successful in any venue in its original form. The NVBK dogs are represented as purebred Mals and they are very impressive in what they do, the KNPV dogs are impressive as well..I just can't get my head around why they have to be mixed with Mals to accomplish this, I don't think anyone can honestly say one sport is harder than the other.





" KNPV dogs are impressive as well..I just can't get my head around why they have to be mixed with Mal"


arent knpv dogs and dogs (mal's, DS's, GSD's) that compete in that sport and are interbred to produce the dogs that perform the best, including a large dose of mal? Also seems like you are asking why they have started to mix in mal, and seelena (and history apparently) say that they all used to be mixed and when they became distinct breeds only the knpv dogs kept doing what they were doing instead of changing to suite the new breed standards?

^im asking, thats what ive gathered


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

some history on the DS:
Is written by Judith Powell, and saves me a long story. More intrestin info on her site.

http://www.sevenpineskennel.com/dutch_shepherd_history.htm


----------



## eric squires (Oct 16, 2008)

The Dutch Shepherds have been very successful in the venue they have traditionally been bred for, police and military work, it is still a relatively rare breed which is gaining popularity with sport and companion dog crowd which hopefully will not be the breeds downfall if AKC ever picks up the breed and ruins it by being bred for color, size, conformation, etc. and not working ability. I have known many K9 officers who after having a dutch will refuse to go back to a malinois or a german shepherd


----------



## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

eric squires said:


> The Dutch Shepherds have been very successful in the venue they have traditionally been bred for, police and military work, it is still a relatively rare breed which is gaining popularity with sport and companion dog crowd which hopefully will not be the breeds downfall if AKC ever picks up the breed and ruins it by being bred for color, size, conformation, etc. and not working ability. I have known many K9 officers who after having a dutch will refuse to go back to a malinois or a german shepherd


The Dutch Shepherd has become a recognised breed here in Australia now so time will tell if it really does screw them up. There are a group of people who have gone down the pedigreed route and there are others who have gone down the KNPV route.


----------



## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

eric squires said:


> The Dutch Shepherds have been very successful in the venue they have traditionally been bred for, police and military work, it is still a relatively rare breed which is gaining popularity with sport and companion dog crowd which hopefully will not be the breeds downfall if AKC ever picks up the breed and ruins it by being bred for color, size, conformation, etc. and not working ability. I have known many K9 officers who after having a dutch will refuse to go back to a malinois or a german shepherd


 

As I may agree with some of this, the biggest problem with some people are just what you wrote in the last sentance. Just because one DS or Mali or GSD is what you may like, PICK THE DOG or next dog by its working venue you need it for, don't limit yourself on one breed. You could pass up a real nice GSD that is 10 times the dog the DS is. 

As others have said, Its all in selection and those that have been doing it for years have their lines and preferences. I don't think their is a damn thing different from a DS or a Mal other than the stripes. That being said two different bloodlines can produce totally different dogs and temperments.


----------



## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

Interestingly, some people have arko pups that sound very unsocial, but my castor line dog (and an LAPD k9 ofc that posts here and has a similar dog) are highly social, so even the same bloodline can produce very different dogs (*all are serious when working for the record)


if it does happen, Id think keeping a distinct line drawn between them like the amstaff-pitbull would be the best outcome......but hopefully it can be stopped


(kinda makes me feel similar to how im glad they didnt remake the cuda like they did the challenger, better to keep what I have out of the spotlight, since only bad comes from it)


http://www.workingdutchshepherd.org/


so les flores has done nothing other than make this webpage?


----------



## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Matt Grosch said:


> Interestingly, some people have arko pups that sound very unsocial, but my castor line dog (and an LAPD k9 ofc that posts here and has a similar dog) are highly social, so even the same bloodline can produce very different dogs (*all are serious when working for the record)
> 
> 
> if it does happen, Id think keeping a distinct line drawn between them like the amstaff-pitbull would be the best outcome......but hopefully it can be stopped
> ...


 
I have an Arko bitch that is a social butterfly, she is super around dogs, kids, family, anything. When she is working she is an evil bitch though. She is great!


----------



## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

yep. best of both worlds, like a good looking wife/girlfriend that can make it hot, but isnt a whore


or a car that has 500hp, but gets good gas mileage


etc, etc


----------



## eugene ramirez (Jun 22, 2010)

Matt Grosch said:


> I never said no rules, just no show registration (which would be like saying all fighters must have a certificate from some organization in order to fight, and people that didnt come from a traditional martial art, like wrestling, arent eligible)
> 
> It can be argued that the knpv dogs are the best in the world, seems pretty weak for any sport to say they couldnt compete without the proper registration (that means there focus is not on finding the best dogs)


Ok, thanks for clarifying.


----------



## eugene ramirez (Jun 22, 2010)

Jody Butler said:


> As I may agree with some of this, the biggest problem with some people are just what you wrote in the last sentance. Just because one DS or Mali or GSD is what you may like, PICK THE DOG or next dog by its working venue you need it for, don't limit yourself on one breed. You could pass up a real nice GSD that is 10 times the dog the DS is.
> 
> As others have said, Its all in selection and those that have been doing it for years have their lines and preferences. I don't think their is a damn thing different from a DS or a Mal other than the stripes. That being said two different bloodlines can produce totally different dogs and temperments.


What can you say about some people who claims, they have tried Mals and GSD in past, will never go back since they have found DS. They seem to imply DS are better, stronger, etc...


----------



## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

eugene ramirez said:


> What can you say about some people who claims, they have tried Mals and GSD in past, will never go back since they have found DS. They seem to imply DS are better, stronger, etc...


 
All I can say is not all of them, and not every breed is flawless. I too have my favorite, but it doesn't come in terms of color or breed, it comes in size, drive, confidence, indiviuality, hunt, willingness to engage (play.fight.anything), strong nerved amongst other things. If that is a GSD Mal or DS it doesn't matter, bobbed tail, flopped ear stripes, male or female..... I don't care. Its the individual dog at hand for the purpose.

What I am trying to say is don't have blinders on when selecting an animal to work, a diamond in the rough may pass you by and if all you want is one breed, there will be several others passing you by. One dog doesn't make the breed, they are all individuals, I have seen nice dogs in each breed and seen worthless as well.


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

*Re: WDSA*



Matt Grosch said:


> http://www.workingdutchshepherd.org/
> 
> 
> so les flores has done nothing other than make this webpage?


Hey Matt

The WDSA has guest status with the AWDF and hopefully will be approved for full member status at the next annual meeting
(in April?) Otherwise things have been pretty slow.


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

eugene ramirez said:


> What can you say about some people who claims, they have tried Mals and GSD in past, will never go back since they have found DS. They seem to imply DS are better, stronger, etc...


How much experience can any one herein the US have when 90% of the Dutch and Mali's that have walked on American soil are still walking American soil ware dose all this experience come from in one generation of a breed of animal that lives 13,14 years. :lol:


----------



## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

eugene ramirez said:


> What can you say about some people who claims, they have tried Mals and GSD in past, will never go back since they have found DS. They seem to imply DS are better, stronger, etc...


Or maybe they had weak Malinois and GSD
Or maybe the DS they got was easier for them to handle
Or maybe the DS suited their training style
Or maybe more people gave them attention 'cause there DS looked like tiger
Or maybe......

What have those people done with their DS? Police work, sport titles?


----------



## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

anyone really going to compare a GSD vs a DS for real work?


----------



## eugene ramirez (Jun 22, 2010)

Jody Butler said:


> All I can say is not all of them, and not every breed is flawless. I too have my favorite, but it doesn't come in terms of color or breed, it comes in size, drive, confidence, indiviuality, hunt, willingness to engage (play.fight.anything), strong nerved amongst other things. If that is a GSD Mal or DS it doesn't matter, bobbed tail, flopped ear stripes, male or female..... I don't care. Its the individual dog at hand for the purpose.
> 
> What I am trying to say is don't have blinders on when selecting an animal to work, a diamond in the rough may pass you by and if all you want is one breed, there will be several others passing you by. One dog doesn't make the breed, they are all individuals, I have seen nice dogs in each breed and seen worthless as well.


thanks Jody for a very good post. I think you've hit the nail on the head.


----------



## eugene ramirez (Jun 22, 2010)

Christopher Smith said:


> Or maybe they had weak Malinois and GSD
> Or maybe the DS they got was easier for them to handle
> Or maybe the DS suited their training style
> Or maybe more people gave them attention 'cause there DS looked like tiger
> ...


Hi Christopher, many the of sites I've visited and browsed on working DS are involved that ranged from IPO to ring sports, to providing dogs for police and military work, to personal protections...

A few from Europe, Thailand, Autralia, US who mentioned or implied the qualities of DS as compared with GSD and even Mals. But I may not be able to quote their sites without permission. Thanks


----------



## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

eugene ramirez said:


> Hi Christopher, many the of sites I've visited and browsed on working DS are involved that ranged from IPO to ring sports, to providing dogs for police and military work, to personal protections...
> 
> A few from Europe, Thailand, Autralia, US who mentioned or implied the qualities of DS as compared with GSD and even Mals. But I may not be able to quote their sites without permission. Thanks


The Malinois has the edge over the DS, of that there is no doubt. I own DS's and not Malis but I dont have a problem saying that. The top level KNPV Dutchies are matched by the top level KNPV Malis. But then outside of the KNPV you have the NVBK Malis and the FR Malis, both which have different traits to the KNPV dogs.
So in the working dog world you have one viable genepool of Dutchies (KNPV) but you have three viable genepools of Malis (KNPV, NVBK and FCI (FR & IPO)). So the numbers (population) and the variation (different working venues) go to the Mali.


----------



## eugene ramirez (Jun 22, 2010)

Christopher Jones said:


> The Malinois has the edge over the DS, of that there is no doubt. I own DS's and not Malis but I dont have a problem saying that. The top level KNPV Dutchies are matched by the top level KNPV Malis. But then outside of the KNPV you have the NVBK Malis and the FR Malis, both which have different traits to the KNPV dogs.
> So in the working dog world you have one viable genepool of Dutchies (KNPV) but you have three viable genepools of Malis (KNPV, NVBK and FCI (FR & IPO)). So the numbers (population) and the variation (different working venues) go to the Mali.


Yes, Mal at present is still no. 1 is many area, including any of the bite dog sports. Allow me to quote a well know handler, trainer and breeder from France without mentioning his name, "-1st,and undisputed one the Malinois,in all programs and all over the world;..And a lot of people has told me in countries like USA,Canada...That a lot of the Mals that was imported in some countries are too strong for most of the Dogsports practisers.
-2nd group;in it you can find the Terv or the German Shepherd,that are the only breed or variety who can match the Mal at trial!
-3rd; some other breeds who're increasing to reach the highest levels...Like Dutchies,some Dobermanns,Rottweillers or Beaucerons

And when observe the progress of the Dutch Shepherds,you can guess that in several years he'll reach the 2nd group 

And about compare German Shepherds and Tervs at work...Here in France,there's about 15000 births of GSD/year(about 25%30% from working lines).There's about 4000births of Tervs/year(about 25% from working lines).
The GSD pass sometimes through French Ring Selectives to Championnship...And if no GSD could qualify at the Final,there's a system of "Breed Invitation".":!:

Thanks.


----------



## eric squires (Oct 16, 2008)

My best stud dog, Timo has malinois, dutch shepherd and german shepherd in his knpv pedigree, so have to agree with Jody it is the individual dog and not the breed that you should look at, i like any quality working dog, be it pit bull, jack russell, border collie or one of the traditional working breeds


----------



## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Jody Butler said:


> What I am trying to say is don't have blinders on when selecting an animal to work, a diamond in the rough may pass you by and if all you want is one breed, there will be several others passing you by.* One dog doesn't make the breed, they are all individuals, I have seen nice dogs in each breed and seen worthless as well*.


Very true. You should look at the individual dog and the purpose you need him for. 
But you'll most likely find that good individual dog in the breed that suits your discipline best.


----------



## eugene ramirez (Jun 22, 2010)

Martine Loots said:


> Very true. You should look at the individual dog and the purpose you need him for.
> But you'll most likely find that good individual dog in the breed that suits your discipline best.


I guess it also helps in choosing the right dog for you, if you have exposure to as many dogs as possible, especially high caliber dogs that excel their disciplines.


----------



## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

Many mistakes there

1) the DS is basically a mal, unless with a knpv litter that is 50/50 are you going to say the (solid) mals are the better dogs and the brindle (DS) are the weaker

2) therefore the "mal is best in all bitesports" (excluding dutch dogs) is wrong since the dutch mal(DS) is number one in KNPV, often the best in PSA, and the #1 choice of police and military

3) only an idiot would rank a GSD (or terv) as better than the dutch malinois(DS)

4) only an idiot would rank the dutch mal(DS) as the same as dobbies, rotties, and beaucerons

5) conclusion, he is an idiot that knows nothing about dutch mals and is therefore an idiot overall to make statements based on zero knowledge 


***I have posted common knowledge, perhaps any of the experts can add more (or even correct)




eugene ramirez said:


> Yes, Mal at present is still no. 1 is many area, including any of the bite dog sports. Allow me to quote a well know handler, trainer and breeder from France without mentioning his name, "-1st,and undisputed one the Malinois,in all programs and all over the world;..And a lot of people has told me in countries like USA,Canada...That a lot of the Mals that was imported in some countries are too strong for most of the Dogsports practisers.
> -2nd group;in it you can find the Terv or the German Shepherd,that are the only breed or variety who can match the Mal at trial!
> -3rd; some other breeds who're increasing to reach the highest levels...Like Dutchies,some Dobermanns,Rottweillers or Beaucerons
> 
> ...


----------



## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

eric squires said:


> My best stud dog, Timo has malinois, dutch shepherd and german shepherd in his knpv pedigree, so have to agree with Jody it is the individual dog and not the breed that you should look at, i like any quality working dog, be it pit bull, jack russell, border collie or one of the traditional working breeds




right, it is the individual dog (when I knew what I wanted, I was open to a german/belgian/dutch shepherd that met the criteria), but it is also a fact that if you want a dog for a certain job (military/police for example) it comes down to % and you are much more likely to meet your criteria with a knpv dog than a GSD


like saying a good wife comes down to the individual, but also knowing that you are much more likely to find one that matches your needs in a conservative traditional family/town than you are in the ghetto/projects


----------



## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Matt Grosch said:


> 3) only an idiot would rank a GSD (or terv) as better than the dutch malinois(DS)
> 
> 
> 
> ***I have posted common knowledge, perhaps any of the experts can add more (or even correct)


You are having a lapse in logic. If your argument is that DS and Mals from the same litter are the same. Then please explain why it's "idiotic" to think that a Terv is lesser than a Mal?


----------



## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

in what working litters are the long haired tervs and short haired mals intermingled (and successful) like the dutch mals of both color types?


----------



## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Matt Grosch said:


> in what working litters are the long haired tervs and short haired mals intermingled (and successful) like the dutch mals of both color types?


I get long haired Tervs in my Malinois litter on a semi-regular basis. The biggest issue isn't wether they work or not, it's finding people who want to work them, most people don't want the hair. Even if its not a full on show style Terv coat, but just a slightly fluffier then a Malinois type coat.

If you look at the Tervs who are out there successfully working though, the majority of them are from a litter that produced Malinois and Tervs, or from Tervs that came from a litter of Mals and Tervs.


----------



## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

maybe im off, I was looking at it as an issue of scale, didnt think the working belgian mals were up to 50% longhaired or that it was common as opposed to more less common, and didnt think the terv breeders (as opposed to a mal breeder with occasional terv) were about competiion like knpv breeders are

but if you want to include them under the mal definition, then excluding the dutch mal(DS) from that group would be even more odd


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Matt Grosch*  
_3) only an idiot would rank a GSD (or terv) as better than the dutch malinois(DS)
***I have posted common knowledge, perhaps any of the experts can add more (or even correct)_


Christopher Smith said:


> You are having a lapse in logic. If your argument is that DS and Mals from the same litter are the same. Then please explain why it's "idiotic" to think that a Terv is lesser than a Mal?


He's got a black belt in dog board jibber jabber, expert trainer of cop dogs and dose psa in Phoenix. 
And you question?:lol:


----------



## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

c'mon, if you are going to try to zing me, at least make it funny


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Matt Grosch said:


> c'mon, if you are going to try to zing me, at least make it funny


It wasn't


----------



## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Matt Grosch said:


> 3) only an idiot would rank a GSD (or terv) as better than the dutch malinois(DS)
> 
> 4) only an idiot would rank the dutch mal(DS) as the same as dobbies, rotties, and beaucerons
> 
> ...


 I think the French guy is comparing the FCI DS (which you normally use in FR as its a FCI sport) to these other breeds, not the xKNPV ones.


----------



## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

Then it seems to relate to the terv issue (?)


When people think of dutch shepherds, what defines the breed more, the fci registered dogs of the knpv unregistered.


With the terv's what defines them more, the people that focus on breeding tervs or the working mal breeders that occasionally get a long hair?


----------



## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

also it seems like he is being intentionally dishonest to ignore the knpv sport and knpv dogs, that would be like someone making a statement about GSD's being terrible and claiming they were only speaking of the AKC registered ones


----------



## eugene ramirez (Jun 22, 2010)

I'm not exactly sure the percentage of occurrence, but breeding two Mals occasionally produces a terv. I know that my tervs has many Masl in his line. According to a Terv Working group, I presume though these are FCI registered, many are in France, Tervs are slowly catching up to the Mals.

It make sense though, you breed two beast (Mals), you get a beast (Terv). By the way, on a side note, I also was not too excited about the long hair Terv, but after two of them, they are not too bad. They kinda grow on you.


----------



## eugene ramirez (Jun 22, 2010)

Matt Grosch said:


> also it seems like he is being intentionally dishonest to ignore the knpv sport and knpv dogs, that would be like someone making a statement about GSD's being terrible and claiming they were only speaking of the AKC registered ones


Hey Matt, my quote was from a French guy. I think he was only talking about Mondioring dogs and dogs in France. I don't think he was intentionally ignoring the knpv sport or dogs. I got that qoute from a working group terv.

I am not sure if that quote is directed at my earlier post. Sorry if it's not in advance. thanks


----------



## Nickos Athanasakis (Aug 17, 2010)

Christopher Jones said:


> (which you normally use in FR as its a FCI sport)


Only mondioring and IPO are recognised by the FCI 
*They tried to unite all the ringsports under the " mondioring" but it ended in failure *

FCI does not recognise French ring due to lack of tracking , actually they do not care about it that much , the real thing is that there is personal interest in dog sports and in IPO of course , if you understand what i am saying 

actually " full " FCI malis are the show ones and those for IPO and they have nothing to do with the Malis for FR or the Malis for NVBK not only in their overall quality but also in their " mind " and their health 

everyone who cares for a malinois as it should be which is a ring dog should turn to those malis who are bred for ringsports and even better those for belgian ringsport 

I have nothing to say for the dutch sepherd but i am sure that KNPV is the place to be if you want a dutch sepherd as FCI is used in not promoting the workability of the working breeds


----------



## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

eugene ramirez said:


> I'm not exactly sure the percentage of occurrence, but breeding two Mals occasionally produces a terv.


Statistically if you breed two Malinois who carry coat, you will get 25% of the puppies with hair. Of course that's statistically LOL I know of litters where 70% of the pups had long hair, and other litters were none did, although both parents carried coat. 

If you are in the US it may be different though, since the long haired pups are registered as Malinois. So when I breed my "Malinois" Extra, who is really a Tervuren, depending on how I breed her I'll either get no coated pups (take her to a male who doesn't carry coat) or I get about 1/2 a litter of coated pups, if I take her to a male that carries coat. Luckily I don't think the male I plan to breed her to carries coat, so I should get all short haired dogs. I like the long haired dogs, but many people don't.


----------



## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Nickos Athanasakis said:


> Only mondioring and IPO are recognised by the FCI
> *They tried to unite all the ringsports under the " mondioring" but it ended in failure *
> 
> FCI does not recognise French ring due to lack of tracking , actually they do not care about it that much , the real thing is that there is personal interest in dog sports and in IPO of course , if you understand what i am saying
> ...


My understanding is that you need an FCI pedigree to do FR in France, and that it is overseen by the kennel club in France? Otherwise there would not have been a need for the French to put fake pedigrees on all the NVBK dogs that they did.


----------



## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Nickos Athanasakis said:


> FCI does not recognise French ring due to lack of tracking , actually they do not care about it that much , the real thing is that there is personal interest in dog sports and in IPO of course , if you understand what i am saying
> 
> actually " full " FCI malis are the show ones and those for IPO and they have nothing to do with the Malis for FR or the Malis for NVBK not only in their overall quality but also in their " mind " and their health


To my knowledge no one has applied to to the FCI to have French Ring recognized. Tracking has nothing to do with it.

And all of the FR Malinois in France have FCI recognized pedigrees.


----------



## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Matt Grosch said:


> Then it seems to relate to the terv issue (?)
> 
> 
> When people think of dutch shepherds, what defines the breed more, the fci registered dogs of the knpv unregistered.
> ...


Once again your logic looks a fuzzy. The Dutch mixed dogs are primarly Malinois, DS and GSDs. All of those breeds carry longcoat genes, so what makes you think that there are not Dutch mixed dogs with longcoats?

You also seem to be under the impression that the Dutch breeders don't use FCI line dogs. 

What dog do most black Malinois go back to? :-k


----------



## eugene ramirez (Jun 22, 2010)

Nickos Athanasakis said:


> Only mondioring and IPO are recognised by the FCI
> *They tried to unite all the ringsports under the " mondioring" but it ended in failure *


Since I've only tried MR, I can't really compare with the other ring sports. If it is true what you saying, "failure", and I am not saying your making it up, that really too bad. It has so much potential. Maybe they can still improve it.


----------



## Nickos Athanasakis (Aug 17, 2010)

I do not deny that the FR malis do have FCI pedigrees . I suppose that this is maybee because of their kennel club rules but it also helps selling litters and making breedings in other FCI countries ( I do not mean that this is bad )

In 2003 FCI suggested a committee and asked from the organizations who are responsible for the FR the mondio an the BR to suggest to the FCI a proposal for all these three sports *under the rules of one sport * that would be accepted from all of them ( FR , MR , BR ) but in 2009 this committe said that they cannot agree and so in FCI they decided that they cannot recognize them . This I meant by saying that it ended in failure 
( sorry if my writing is confusing but my speaking language is not English )

I do not see how these 3 sports would become one sport either .


----------



## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Nickos Athanasakis said:


> In 2003 FCI suggested a committee and asked from the organizations who are responsible for the FR the mondio an the BR to suggest to the FCI a proposal for all these three sports *under the rules of one sport *that would be accepted from all of them ( FR , MR , BR ) but in 2009 this committe said that they cannot agree and so in FCI they decided that they cannot recognize them . This I meant by saying that it ended in failure
> ( sorry if my writing is confusing but my speaking language is not English )
> 
> I do not see how these 3 sports would become one sport either .


 Well considering how the main and biggest BR organisation is the NVBK, which does not use FCI pedigreed dogs, there will never be a merging of all three, not unless the FCI suddenly recognises NVBK pedigrees that is.


----------



## eugene ramirez (Jun 22, 2010)

Nickos Athanasakis said:


> In 2003 FCI suggested a committee and asked from the organizations who are responsible for the FR the mondio an the BR to suggest to the FCI a proposal for all these three sports *under the rules of one sport * that would be accepted from all of them ( FR , MR , BR ) but in 2009 this committe said that they cannot agree and so in FCI they decided that they cannot recognize them . This I meant by saying that it ended in failure
> 
> ( sorry if my writing is confusing but my speaking language is not English )
> 
> I do not see how these 3 sports would become one sport either .


Hey Nikos, no need to apologize, your english is actually very good. English is also my second language. That is why I was also asking. Thank you for clarifying.

In some article and sites, there seems to be an implication that MR is lesser or not as good as, the other ring sports. Really don't know the reason behind the perception. It's because of the FCI registration? 

Could it be in an attempt to attract competitors from the other disciplines, some exercise were lessen? For example, in the Palisade (MR), the dog is required to only climb once, then it has a ramp for the descent. While in FR, BR it has to do climb twice from both sides, without a ramp. Harder on FR, BR dogs. Is it lesser? That is a matter of opinion. 

It is a big feat to bring the four mayor dogs sport in Europe - BR, FR, KNPV and SCHH into one. And no matter what they do, or who attempts to unite these four sport is doom to failure.

Some of these Mals in MR did not come from France or Mr lines. Exceptional, impressive dogs, most of which are too much dogs to handle, but the most experienced handlers. Could it be that they also came from KNPV, or NBVK lines?


----------



## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

eugene ramirez said:


> * I'm not exactly sure the percentage of occurrence, but breeding two Mals occasionally produces a terv*. I know that my tervs has many Masl in his line. According to a Terv Working group, I presume though these are FCI registered, many are in France, Tervs are slowly catching up to the Mals.
> 
> It make sense though, you breed two beast (Mals), you get a beast (Terv). By the way, on a side note, I also was not too excited about the long hair Terv, but after two of them, they are not too bad. They kinda grow on you.


I suppose this depends on the lines.
In NVBK I don't know one single Terv for the last 20 yrs.


----------



## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

now that dna is being used don't you think the fci registration could be a good thing. If the fci would let you register your dog with a 2 generation pedigree(since you have dna on the parents and litter) now you have a true pedigree. once you get working dogs papers no one is going to check all of the physical things they say makes a ds.


----------



## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

eugene ramirez said:


> Hey Matt, my quote was from a French guy. I think he was only talking about Mondioring dogs and dogs in France. I don't think he was intentionally ignoring the knpv sport or dogs. I got that qoute from a working group terv.
> 
> I am not sure if that quote is directed at my earlier post. Sorry if it's not in advance. thanks



It was about his post, and still seems dishonest on his part "oh when I said dutch shepherds were crappy dogs what I meant was the small amount of fci ones near me, not all the awesome ones in their native country or that are being used around the world"


----------



## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> Once again your logic looks a fuzzy. The Dutch mixed dogs are primarly Malinois, DS and GSDs. All of those breeds carry longcoat genes, so what makes you think that there are not Dutch mixed dogs with longcoats?
> 
> You also seem to be under the impression that the Dutch breeders don't use FCI line dogs.
> 
> What dog do most black Malinois go back to? :-k




You are saying knpv breeders are using fci dogs in their programs now, or far back in the past they did?


And the reason im saying a knpv dutchie (brindle mal) is not like the terv is because the knpv dutchies are a significant part of the dutch mal, the terv is not defined by it appearance in working male litters as the dutchie is.

The info on this thread has done more to confirm this.


----------



## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Martine Loots said:


> I suppose this depends on the lines.
> In NVBK I don't know one single Terv for the last 20 yrs.


Are you saying you don't know of a single Terv born in an NVBK litter in 20 years, or that you don't know of any Tervs that were titled in NVBK in the last 20 years?


----------



## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Are you saying you don't know of a single Terv born in an NVBK litter in 20 years, or that you don't know of any Tervs that were titled in NVBK in the last 20 years?



Not a single one born. No Terv, no brindle, no black.
The only terv is know was Snap from Jef Fierens and that was in the seventies. The father of that dog also was a terv


----------



## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Do the breeders bucket those pups? I'm seeing Tervs in litters from NVBK lines, so the long hair gene has to be floating around in there, even if it's not seen very often.


----------



## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

so do terv specific breeders rely on working mals to get their long hairs or do they breed their (largely non-working) tervs to get more of them?


----------



## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Do the breeders bucket those pups?* I'm seeing Tervs in litters from NVBK lines,* so the long hair gene has to be floating around in there, even if it's not seen very often.


No they don't.
Which litters? From what NVBK dogs? Maybe mix with FCI BR or FR?
Can't be pure NVBK lines because I've never seen a long haired dog there.


----------



## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

my female had a litter out of Quatro,i believe he was Belgian import there was one longhair in the litter but i do not know if he was later recognized as a terv.


----------



## eugene ramirez (Jun 22, 2010)

Martine Loots said:


> Not a single one born. No Terv, no brindle, no black.
> The only terv is know was Snap from Jef Fierens and that was in the seventies. The father of that dog also was a terv


Do you know of any Mal that is now in MR with lineage from your sport? As have been stated in previous post. Terv can come out from Mals breeding. Does anyone know of Mals competing in MR now, that may have lineage, coming from the other ring sports like FR, or perhaps even BR?


----------



## eugene ramirez (Jun 22, 2010)

Hey guys,

I just wanted to express my appreciation to everyone for giving their valuable inputs in this thread. One of the biggest thing I take away from this exercise, is a greater appreciation for the individually of each dog.

Of course, we all still do have our preferences, be it GSD, Mals, or DS. I was actually doing my research / study in preparation to buy a DS. But this thread has been an eye opener for me, it has taught me not to focus so much on the breed, but rather to look at the individual.

Thanks again...:neutral:


----------



## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

eugene ramirez said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> I just wanted to express my appreciation to everyone for giving their valuable inputs in this thread. One of the biggest thing I take away from this exercise, is a greater appreciation for the individually of each dog.
> 
> ...


 You still need to go to the breeds that best suit your chosen venue. Sure there is some driven tough Rotts out there somewhere, but your not going to get one to do NVBK or Mondio or FR or KNPV. Same goes for Dobes and a lesser extent GSD's. If however your doing security or PP where the dog is on the end of the lead then Rottis and Dobes are ok. 
Horses for courses. 
So is this new dog your looking for soley for Mondio? And does it need FCI papers? These are the first two questions I think for you.


----------



## eugene ramirez (Jun 22, 2010)

Christopher Jones said:


> You still need to go to the breeds that best suit your chosen venue. Sure there is some driven tough Rotts out there somewhere, but your not going to get one to do NVBK or Mondio or FR or KNPV. Same goes for Dobes and a lesser extent GSD's. If however your doing security or PP where the dog is on the end of the lead then Rottis and Dobes are ok.
> Horses for courses.
> So is this new dog your looking for soley for Mondio? And does it need FCI papers? These are the first two questions I think for you.


So true Christopher. The venue or purpose of the dog is very important in determining the right dog. Because of our exposure with working lines, the preference would be to go with Mals or DS, third is GSD. Very difficult to find Rotts or Dobies with the right drives, temperament, etc here. I've own Mals and GSD, never DS. another reason for starting this thread.

Anyways, yesterday our GSD (Czech line) passed away. We are a bit sad, we will miss him. He was trained in PP, social with my kids, and loyal. But a very good security dog, and courageous. He was getting old, that is why we were looking for another dog in the first place. 

I would prefer a dog that could compete in MR, more as a test to the dog's abilities, but FCI papers is not a requirement. I don't have intention or skill level to compete at the international level. Ha ha.


----------



## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

eugene ramirez said:


> So true Christopher. The venue or purpose of the dog is very important in determining the right dog. Because of our exposure with working lines, the preference would be to go with Mals or DS, third is GSD. Very difficult to find Rotts or Dobies with the right drives, temperament, etc here. I've own Mals and GSD, never DS. another reason for starting this thread.
> 
> Anyways, yesterday our GSD (Czech line) passed away. We are a bit sad, we will miss him. He was trained in PP, social with my kids, and loyal. But a very good security dog, and courageous. He was getting old, that is why we were looking for another dog in the first place.
> 
> I would prefer a dog that could compete in MR, more as a test to the dog's abilities, but FCI papers is not a requirement. I don't have intention or skill level to compete at the international level. Ha ha.


If I was you I would seriously look at the strong nvbk lines over the FCI lines that do Mondio. If a dog is good at NVBK it shouldnt have an issue in Mondio.


----------



## eugene ramirez (Jun 22, 2010)

Christopher Jones said:


> If I was you I would seriously look at the strong nvbk lines over the FCI lines that do Mondio. If a dog is good at NVBK it shouldnt have an issue in Mondio.


Yes thank you for the suggestion. I will definitely look into that.


----------



## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Martine Loots said:


> Can't be pure NVBK lines because I've never seen a long haired dog there.


That's really interesting. Have you seen any blue Malinois from NVBK lines?


----------



## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Eugene, there are plenty of good dogs in PI and many come from NVBK lines. A few years back I worked one of the best Malinois I have ever had on a suit. The training was not all that great, but the dog was excellent. The dog's name was Nicky if memory serves me correctly and it was at Spratly, before Noel moved here to Los Angeles.


----------



## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> Eugene, there are plenty of good dogs in PI and many come from NVBK lines. A few years back I worked one of the best Malinois I have ever had on a suit. The training was not all that great, but the dog was excellent. The dog's name was Nicky if memory serves me correctly and it was at Spratly, before Noel moved here to Los Angeles.


 Actually I was thinking the same thing. I thought there was a guy importing NVBK Malinois into the Phillipines and also Czech GSD's.


----------



## eugene ramirez (Jun 22, 2010)

Christopher Smith said:


> Eugene, there are plenty of good dogs in PI and many come from NVBK lines. A few years back I worked one of the best Malinois I have ever had on a suit. The training was not all that great, but the dog was excellent. The dog's name was Nicky if memory serves me correctly and it was at Spratly, before Noel moved here to Los Angeles.


Thanks again Chris, Nicky is the name, I've seen that dog in person before. I have visited Spratly in the past. I've heard of Noel also, but never got to really know Noel him in person. some of their former members joined MR when their group disbanded.

I've also seen other very good dogs imported from those lines. But that was few years ago. We really do not know where they are now.


----------

