# GSD?Mal natural retrievers?



## Guy Williams (Jun 26, 2012)

If this is one of those stupid questions that I should have given more thought to then I will blame the fact that it is early.

I was just reading an old post about a dog that wasn't keen to play tug but would retrieve all day long and a thought popped into my head.

Is being a natural retriever detrimental to good bitework? Does anyone have a GSD or mal who is a natural retreiver ie. you didn't have to train it, it would just go fetch and give it up sweet as a nut.

I can't think of the last time I came across a dog at work who was willing to give anything up without a fight and needed training (other than the spaniels/labs). :-k


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

My male has little interest in keeping a toy. He always brings it back and shoves it in your lap/face/etc. *If* you reach out to grab it before, he will play tug though. If you aren't actively trying to take it (and I mean take, not outing him) he will give it to you every time. He's been that way since 9 weeks so its natural. His bite work is ideal in my opinion, for a psd/ppd... Not equipment oriented, never takes his eyes off the decoy, never had an out battle with him.

My bitch has to be told to retrieve as she prefers to keep/hoard. Never had huge out probs and her out is real nice now, but that's a product of training not genetics. She also can be equipment oriented if allowed to be. She is a much better sport dog than my male


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

I wouldn't say just because a Mal or GSD likes to retrieve doesn't mean it won't like/want to bite, or takes anything away from the bite component. 

Both my Mals are crazy retrievers. I've had a hip replacement and my older female was trained for service dog tasks leading up to my surgery. She will pick up the ringing wireless phone and bring it to me, socks, recycling, sharpened knives, (anything metal) paper money, change as small as a dime etc etc. My male same thing I haven't trained him on as many things never needed to, but he is the same. 

I even did some field work with him showed him the dokken duck once, shot off the skeet launched the duck and first time he retrieved it not a problem. If I spent time training that. I'm sure he would get to trained field Labrador, Golden level not a problem. 

Trust me biting ISN'T their problem! LOL!


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Guy Williams said:


> I can't think of the last time I came across a dog at work who was willing to give anything up without a fight and needed training (other than the spaniels/labs). :-k


Oh just a short note on this. 

This to me is a training issue not a dog issue. For me in all my retrieves, bite work anything that requires the dog to give up something of value. I ingrain from a pup that there is always something for something. I never *not pay* my dogs in training, for giving up an item or outing of a toy or even a off a decoy in training. If you get lazy paying the dog the dog will get lazy paying you. So always always make it worthwhile for the dog.


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

My dog will retrieve all day for me. Throw it in my lap if I don't throw it for him. Doesn't for other people. Then if I take the same toy and use it as a reward for obedience he doesn't want to give it back without a little force of some kind.


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## Guy Williams (Jun 26, 2012)

Geoff Empey said:


> Oh just a short note on this.
> 
> This to me is a training issue not a dog issue. For me in all my retrieves, bite work anything that requires the dog to give up something of value. I ingrain from a pup that there is always something for something. I never *not pay* my dogs in training, for giving up an item or outing of a toy or even a off a decoy in training. If you get lazy paying the dog the dog will get lazy paying you. So always always make it worthwhile for the dog.


Thanks for the response. I always throw the ball, another ball, let them re-bite tuggers etc so as not to create a problem and to reward giving the item up but (I have been dealing with pups the last few years) but they all seem to be naturally posessive and won't come back/give it up without some training.

Despite this approach my current (work) dog took me a long time to get him giving up items as I like (although he has always reliably recalled out from tuggers/sleeves) and was very posessive from 12 weeks when I got him. Although I would now describe him as good and reliable I can still sense the reluctance to give anything up. 

If they go to less skillful handlers the issue easily seems to get out of control until someone steps in. 

I guess I am curious as to whether there are certain lines of GSD/Mals that may be less posessive or actually proactively bring things to you like the spaniels do - no training required.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Guy Williams said:


> Thanks for the response. I always throw the ball, another ball, let them re-bite tuggers etc so as not to create a problem and to reward giving the item up but (I have been dealing with pups the last few years) but they all seem to be naturally posessive and won't come back/give it up without some training.


Hey no problem Guy, 

Hope my experience with it helps. 



Guy Williams said:


> Despite this approach my current (work) dog took me a long time to get him giving up items as I like (although he has always reliably recalled out from tuggers/sleeves) and was very posessive from 12 weeks when I got him. Although I would now describe him as good and reliable I can still sense the reluctance to give anything up.
> 
> If they go to less skillful handlers the issue easily seems to get out of control until someone steps in.


I can pretty well guarantee what is happening when the dog goes to the less skilled handlers is the rate of reward and timing of any correction goes to the crapper. Then they have to squish the dog like a bug to get compliance. Or start from scratch from the beginning. 

That's the thing it is always a work in progress until the dog really matures at 5-6 years old then you may have reliability, until then you dance the dance of reward vs compulsion. With a dog like that showing possession like that from a young age it is not just about being possessive, it is about dominance and the lack of trust in its handler more than anything. That would go for young dogs with new green handlers too. That's why it is so important to build a working bond with the animal and not take that bond for granted. 



Guy Williams said:


> I guess I am curious as to whether there are certain lines of GSD/Mals that may be less posessive or actually proactively bring things to you like the spaniels do - no training required.


I know mine are silly like that. Nothing like being awaken by a cold slimy wet Bad Cuz toy being pushed under the blanket over and over into my naked armpit for a rude awakening. My male does this and it is rude! LOL! Both my dogs and their litter mates don't seem to have a problem with giving things up. I've seen them bow their heads with a bit of reluctance. But I never have to compulse mine to give things up, since I laid a strong foundation of them getting paid in the beginning. Conflict with the man, well that's a whole new kettle of fish. 

One of my gundog friends has Springers. I've been invited to go to the field with him and see some of their field training. As I've never seen Springers work outside of snooty old hags doing agility with Springer show dogs. So will be nice to see a proper working Springer. I have no idea really how they would compare to my Malinois.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Oh yeah last summer I went to Prince Edward Island and hung out with forum members Ted Efthymiadis and Duke Ferguson. So the first night my dogs get sprayed by a skunk next day we use the deskunk shampoo, we decide we are going to rinse them by swimming them instead of dinking around with the hose. 

The plan was to for me to wade out into the water and Duke was going to toss my males frisbee out to me and then I would dunk him when he came out to get it, problem was the dog was having nothing to do with Duke but mess him up. He kept shoving the frisbee into Duke's hands and proceeded to shake the crap out of Duke every time Duke touched it. We thought about flanking him to release the frisbee but nah .. We decided to pick him up by his butt and neck and pitched him into the drink frisbee and all. Well the dog goes ass over tea kettle about 3 times hits the drink goes totally under, pops up with the silly frisbee still in his mouth and singles out Duke again and keeps tormenting him with the frisbee. This pitching the dog into the drink happened about 3 times before we could get him to out the frisbee for Duke.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Both my Mal and my DS are natural retrievers. I didn't particularly teach it, though throwing stuff is part of how I interact with my dogs. 

Neither dog likes to give back to my hand, but both will drop the ball for me to throw again - the Mali practically flings it at me some days. If I ask my Mali to give to my hand, he'll do a little f-you head shake before releasing it, but will give it up. Total handler error in foundation, and I'm stuck with it.

I can see sometimes the conflict in the DS' little stripey brain between wanting to have the ball and wanting to have it thrown, but that shows as a slow release, not her taking if off somewhere to guard it. I let her figure it out and drop the ball when she's ready. She wants her ball and only her ball, two ball would be pointless with her. 

The Mali has always been all about the interaction with me, rather than possessing the toy for himself. He was a pet until I found schutzhund when he was 18 months old, so definitely innate in him, rather than deliberately trained. I did more puppy foundation with the DS, so she too sees the game as with me, rather than playing keep away. Sometimes it would be nice if the dogs would just go off with their toys instead of jamming them into my body and leaving pinchbite bruises everywhere. 

Tugging and bitework are good with both dogs. I wouldn't say their natural desire to bring toys to me has adversely affected that.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

One of my priorities when selecting a puppy is as close to a natural retrieve as possible. Two in my first GSDs litter would retrieve to hand at 4-5 wks old. 
Even in competition (AKC OB and Schutzhund) the only thing I've had to teach him was the formalities of sit until sent and a straight front sit on the return.
My younger GSD had no desire to bring anything back but teaching it with markers worked like a charm. Both are excellent retrievers now but #1, at close to 9yrs old, will hold his own with any lab or Golden.
I've never competed with #2 so it's just a fun game for him.


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## Guy Williams (Jun 26, 2012)

Bob Scott said:


> One of my priorities when selecting a puppy is as close to a natural retrieve as possible. Two in my first GSDs litter would retrieve to hand at 4-5 wks old.
> Even in competition (AKC OB and Schutzhund) the only thing I've had to teach him was the formalities of sit until sent and a straight front sit on the return.
> My younger GSD had no desire to bring anything back but teaching it with markers worked like a charm. Both are excellent retrievers now but #1, at close to 9yrs old, will hold his own with any lab or Golden.
> I've never competed with #2 so it's just a fun game for him.


Are they both trained in bitework? Have you noticed any difference between them in their biting desire/abilities?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

The older, natural retriever is a SchIII He has a natural deep grip.
The younger had some bite work before I left the club but I never had high hopes for him. Never really liked his grip.


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