# trot vs/ pace



## kellie pulido (Apr 24, 2007)

Ok I was taking pix of my malinois while out biking they bike with me all the time and when watching a slide show of my pix I noticed that 1 mal trots and the other paces.I wonder if others have noticed this in there working dogs. I know in gsd confirmation they look for the flying trot.It is in sheep herders to increase distance yet not energy utilized.Just a topic.My little female who is the pacer is faster but also 6yrs.younger than my little male who is the trotter.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Pacing can "sometimes' be a sign of fatigue. It can also be that you aren't at the proper speed for that particular dog. Pacing is also seen more often in a dog with a shorter back (square build).


----------



## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

3 of my mals, all related, all pace as a default and/or when they get tired. However I can change that by speeding up, forcing them to trot. The fourth needs some more training to be safe with a bike, so I don't know, but I suspect she will be a trotter. One of the most useful things I got was a computer for my bike - useful little thing, gives me speed, time, distance travelled, and some averages. Really comes in handy.


----------



## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Pacing is one of the first indicators to my dog having a sore back, he doesn't pace much only when there's something going on, seen that in other dogs too. You see it a lot in the giant breeds, it's more of an ambling movement some horses are bred like that for racing the sulkies, I don't like it in a dog.


----------



## kellie pulido (Apr 24, 2007)

How is a paced gait slower than a trot?If you see harness racing some pace some trot is one faster? Just wondering if it could just be a natural gait preference or genetic pref.at that speed not necessarily a sign of fatigue or injury?Maybe a sign in individual dogs


----------



## kellie pulido (Apr 24, 2007)

where did you get that computer for your bike?I usually ride the dogs anywhere from 2-6m several times a week if not more depending on the weather.And one more thing I have all dirt roads anything you recommend to help with their pads?As winter approachs biking will not be an option:-(


----------



## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

kellie pulido said:


> where did you get that computer for your bike?


Any good bike shop should have them, and also you can look online. I have this one http://www.cateye.com/en/product_detail/412 not the cheapest out there but I looked at a few and liked it. Once you get it mounted and set up, it is very simple to use.

Also, I don't think anone said a pace is slower than a trot - but for the pacing dog, you can force them to trot by increasing your speed. This is true with my younger male whom I roadwork often. At 7-9mph he can pace, kick it up to 11-12mph and he has to trot. Or I can just nudge him in the side and tell him "trot". He can't pull me as effectively when pacing, so I taught him to switch gaits when I ask...


----------



## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Pacing can "sometimes' be a sign of fatigue. It can also be that you aren't at the proper speed for that particular dog. Pacing is also seen more often in a dog with a shorter back (square build).


This is what I have always heard too.


----------



## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Pacing is very similar to walking, which is why some dogs will go from a walk to a pace then to a trot if you speed them up gradually. It's not always a slower speed then a trot, but sometimes going faster can break a pacing dog into a trot. 

Some dogs pace because they "interfere" when they trot. Meaning their structure is such (short back, over angulated or unbalanced angulation, etc) that when they try to trot their front and back feet are smacking into each other, so it's easier for them to pace. Others pace because of fatigue or injury.

You might try video taping your dogs at a walk, trot and pace going in a straight line both sideways and head on to the camera person, then watch it in slow motion, that may tell you why each dog prefers the gait they do. Sometimes you can also see it if you take a series of photos, but it depends on th timing.


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Sometimes following the footfall of damp foot pads on a dry surface will tell you exactly what you need. In some dogs the difference can be very slightly detectable in motion but on the ground, the imbalance - if there is one, can be very easy to see this way.


----------



## kellie pulido (Apr 24, 2007)

ok today I watched more closely and the trotter if I speeded up his gait became paced


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

kellie pulido said:


> ok today I watched more closely and the trotter if I speeded up his gait became paced


?????


----------



## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Maybe at a slower trot he didn't interfere to badly so was able to trot, but as you sped up and he had to reach more to keep up, he interfered more and that made him switch to a pace?


----------



## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> ?????


i agree: generally you see a (GSD anyway) pace due to either (poor) build, or as a transition between a walk and a trot, ie, they're just being a bit lazy.

i can't stand to see a GSD pace, it drives me bananas!! as far as Mals go, IDK, haven't really seen any that i can remember (haha), pacing. usually though, a pace IS a slower gait in both dogs and horses,though pacing harness horses when they "break" usually break into a gallop vs a trot. JMO.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I've got a friend/vet school classmate with Tennessee Walking horses and one of her three horses just goes straight into his gait like he should (the smooth running walk) but the other two are "pacey," meaning they start with the pace and go back into the correct gait. I admit I don't know much about TWHs or gaited horses in general other than what she's told me, but with them, it's genetic and a correct gaited horse will do it as a foal and won't need to be taught how to do it. Cats, camelids (camels, llamas, alpacas), and giraffes all pace naturally. Don't know about riding camels, but I do know from personal experience is riding a pacey horse is uncomfortable. :mrgreen:

On the other side, my female Malinois with fibrocartilagenous embolism has a pacing walk and kind of a skipping trot. I talked to Dr. John Sherman (a rehabilitation specialist) about it, and he says that pacing in dogs is a more "primitive" gait than the regular walk or trot. I guess what he means by it is that it takes less higher motor function to perform? That's probably why a dog might be more likely to pace if fatigued or injured as a compensatory mechanism?


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

"but I do know from personal experience is riding a pacey horse is uncomfortable."

I thought they were the most comfortable of the riding horses. Missouri fox trotter, tennessee walker paso fina's etc.


----------



## kellie pulido (Apr 24, 2007)

i have 5 dogs slower riding on my bike they seem to beable to keep up trotting which by that front r.leg goes forward as well as left rear leg then the oppisite on the other side as we speed up they switch into a pacing mode of movement whether that means they are in a gallop or canter not sure but the same side goes forward left rear left front then right side does that make sense?The little female always seems to be paced but she is always ahead of me no matter how fast I ride


----------



## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Interesting, because I see the opposite. For example with one dog whom I run the most, walk up to maybe 3-4 mph (guesing), then pace up to 9-10 mph, then the back legs skip a beat to go into the trot at 10-11-12mph, then over 13-14mph comes the canter and gallop. (and I don't let him go all-out so I don't know top speed). I'll try it with the others and see if they follow the same pattern.


----------



## kellie pulido (Apr 24, 2007)

[/ATTACH]not nsure if this will show pix


----------



## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

oh, there's nothing better than a good-gaited TWH (i've trained/shown/groomed for a year or 3). BUT, w/TWH if they tend to be "square" , ie, trotting, it takes a different training approach than those that are "pacey". different bits, riders (read "trainers" here), genetics definitely play in as well.

go figure, right?

does anyone get the commonalitiies here? really, the dog world isn't that much different than the horse/cattle/cat/hog/sheep/goat world. politics/$$.

bottom line is, if you're looking for a (insert species here) that will do what you want it to do, find someone that produces that animal.

p.s. a GOOD gaited horse is THE BEST to ride for long distances....not that i'm biased, lol.


----------



## kellie pulido (Apr 24, 2007)

gsd he is older 8.5 and has a little hitch in his get along heee heee


----------



## kellie pulido (Apr 24, 2007)

Cyrus another shot


----------



## Corina Annette Gonzalez (Sep 28, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> It can also be that you aren't at the proper speed for that particular dog.


 
My Mali female is a pacer, but I think it's mostly because I walk too slow for her, even when I'm walking _fast_...lol. When I transition into a jog or a run...she trots.


----------



## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

ann freier said:


> oh, there's nothing better than a good-gaited TWH (i've trained/shown/groomed for a year or 3). BUT, w/TWH if they tend to be "square" , ie, trotting, it takes a different training approach than those that are "pacey". different bits, riders (read "trainers" here), genetics definitely play in as well.
> 
> go figure, right?
> 
> ...


I might be wrong here but the breeds mentioned.... twh, paso fino, missouri foxtrotter etc. are not pacers, they're gaited horses some of them having a high action but move on the diagonals at trot, the pacer (standardbred) moves laterally.... oh and are shit to ride, can't beat a good thoroughbred! :grin:


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Maggie, I may be mistaken but from reading most of the posts, I get the sense that siince TWH were brought up, the terms gait and pace are being used interchangeabley. I always understood that a gated horse gave a less bouncey ride" will walking within the gate". Once they are running(galloping) I am just assuming them gait will mean nothing and the thorough bred is best built to run. Don't know for a fact though....just listen to people that have them.

As for dogs, watch airedales in the ring. That is what I am assuming is being called a pace here. Very fast leg movement but doesn't much get them anywhere but across the ring. Can't say as I have seen much of a trot out of the showbreds either. They seem to, pace or run.They were bred to look good walking for the ring. Flat back with the root of the tail coming off of the top,of the back which rotates the hips and the rear legs back for that show stance. That shortens up the forward movement. The front has lost most the angulation and the dogs have little forward reach. There is no flex in that short back as the last rib is close to the hip. Makes them rigid. I would think a sore back would also cause a dog to walk with the back rigid.


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Got me thinking about horses now Maggie, but, don't gated horses tend to walk at an angle, such as in parades, simple because they are being held back by the rider. Seems to me they straighten out when pacing at the right speed. But, may be wrong again....not having ever owned a horse. ](*,)


----------



## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Got me thinking about horses now Maggie, but, don't gated horses tend to walk at an angle, such as in parades, simple because they are being held back by the rider. Seems to me they straighten out when pacing at the right speed. But, may be wrong again....not having ever owned a horse. ](*,)


Don, as far as I am aware gaited horses are those horses who gait outwith the usual walk, trot, canter and gallop. A few of the breeds we have mentioned on this thread are all bred and further trained to develop the gaits which they are famed for, I believe pacers are born. In relation to your comment about horses walking at an angle when under saddle in shows etc. that can be a whole multitude of things, one thing for sure is, a gaited horse looks exaggerated to me.

I believe there are a few old European breeds which are natural pacers, the Spanish jennet for one and I think it is a mixture of some of these old breeds that have gone into producing the modern gaiting horses. Fast pacers I think are only much good for sulky racing and not much else, I don't know what the original benefits of pacing were, probably wouldn't be hard to find out, I tried training one to trot for a couple of years. I could have him trot and go well but when we stepped up the gear and ask for some extension, best I got was a fox trot lol

Apologies for the horse talk folks!


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I think pacing shifts the center of gravity and transitions the effort to the skeletal structure and lessens it on the muscles. The Fila is a natural pacer. I am sure there are a number of other breeds that are also but it's one that comes to mind. I read somewhere that a comparison to pacing is the ambling walk humans revert to when fatigued, when you do that you move the effort from the individual muscles directly into the mass to keep momentum.

I really don't know for sure but it does make sense to think of it in those terms.


----------



## Butch Cappel (Aug 12, 2007)

Kelli, 
You might try Tuff-foot for your dogs feet. I haven't used it in years but it has been around for years and everyone I used to hunt with swears by it;
http://www.tuffoot.com/about/dogs.htm

Don, I have only ridden a very few Walkers but I used to shoe for a stable that had Walkers and Paso Fina's. You are right the rider and the bits have a lot of influence on any horses gait. So I would guess that the handler could have a lot to do with the dogs gait


----------



## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

_Maggie, I may be mistaken but from reading most of the posts, I get the sense that siince TWH were brought up, the terms gait and pace are being used interchangeabley. I always understood that a gated horse gave a less bouncey ride" will walking within the gate". Once they are running(galloping) I am just assuming them gait will mean nothing and the thorough bred is best built to run. Don't know for a fact though....just listen to people that have them._

Steep shoulder and short stride equals bouncy ride. I've ridden many breeds of horses and there is nothing that comes close to the TB for comfort due to how he is built before getting into anything else about riding, they excel at jumping, dressage, hunting, polo to sheep herding the list goes on, but like many working breeds of dog, require a job and competent handling being a hot blood. Just an opinion of course.


----------



## kellie pulido (Apr 24, 2007)

Thanxfor the link Butch


----------



## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

kellie, Cyrus is a beautiful boy!!


----------



## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

maggie fraser said:


> I might be wrong here but the breeds mentioned.... twh, paso fino, missouri foxtrotter etc. are not pacers, they're gaited horses some of them having a high action but move on the diagonals at trot, the pacer (standardbred) moves laterally.... oh and are shit to ride, can't beat a good thoroughbred! :grin:


 
gaited horses, when they're gaiting properly, have a 4-beat gait, ie, each hoof hits the ground separately. while most (not all), are born gaiting naturally, most, if not all, need a little tweaking through training to "set" the gait. some tend to be more pacey, some tend to be square, ie, trotty.

riding a good TWH is just like sitting in a rocking chair, when their head starts nodding, and the ears flopping, and you're "walking" along---god, there's just no better ride! and a Walking Horse at a "flat" walk will cover more ground than any of those "trotting SOB's" (as one of my trainer's used to say). not to even mention a running walk.

i've ridden some really smooth Quarter Horses/TB, but getting them smooth inevitably involves slowing them down. and yes--a pacey horse is hell to ride .


----------



## kellie pulido (Apr 24, 2007)

Thanks Ann we call Cyrus Teen Idol!!They are wearing the orange ascots so none of hunters mistake them for deer.Or coyotes


----------



## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

ann freier said:


> gaited horses, when they're gaiting properly, have a 4-beat gait, ie, each hoof hits the ground separately. while most (not all), are born gaiting naturally, most, if not all, need a little tweaking through training to "set" the gait. some tend to be more pacey, some tend to be square, ie, trotty.
> 
> *Pacers have a 2 beat lateral gait, both on the same side at the same time, as for gaiters being born naturally, I think they've had more than a little help there.*
> 
> ...


I like to think of it as good training, TBs are not always particularly difficult to slow down when they haven't been trained to race, but they're generally always keen. Pacers also tend to stumble a lot, it's one of the first things I look at when a dog paces to see if there is stumbling, often there is but those are just my observations.


We'll be getting asked to leave* :-D*


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Maggie, I may be mistaken but from reading most of the posts, I get the sense that siince TWH were brought up, the terms gait and pace are being used interchangeabley. I always understood that a gated horse gave a less bouncey ride" will walking within the gate". Once they are running(galloping) I am just assuming them gait will mean nothing and the thorough bred is best built to run. Don't know for a fact though....just listen to people that have them.
> 
> As for dogs, watch airedales in the ring. That is what I am assuming is being called a pace here. Very fast leg movement but doesn't much get them anywhere but across the ring. Can't say as I have seen much of a trot out of the showbreds either. They seem to, pace or run.They were bred to look good walking for the ring. Flat back with the root of the tail coming off of the top,of the back which rotates the hips and the rear legs back for that show stance. That shortens up the forward movement. The front has lost most the angulation and the dogs have little forward reach. There is no flex in that short back as the last rib is close to the hip. Makes them rigid. I would think a sore back would also cause a dog to walk with the back rigid.


 
Don, the show ring terriers are pretty well know as pacers by nature (short backs) but it will be peanalized in the show ring.
A correctly trotting dog will often put it's rear foot in the track of it's front foot. With to short a back it has a couple of options to keep from stepping on it's front feet. That's pace, as in both legs on the same side move in unison of one another OR it can crab walk. Speeding up will also help.
I showed a very short backed Kerry (not mine) in the show ring. To keep him from pacing (incorrect movement) I would lift his front feet off of the ground (by the collar and leash) at the first step or two and this made him reach out with the front feet, thus avoinding the pace. If I slowed down moving him around the ring I would have to do a quick lift on the lead to get the trot back.
Also, the loss of reach in the front end doesn't have to happen with correct breeding. To many get it from being to straight in the shoulders. Bred correctly, it's accomplished by breeding for a short second bone in the leg. The straight shoulders will often show up as a hackney gait. High stepper with no ground covered.
Not ment to go into the  show world but good movement is a part of a good dog. doesn't mean it has to be a show dog.


----------



## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

maggie, we're more than a "little"" OT here, but i have to tell you, unless you have seen a TWH foal "waliking" from day one, you really have no basis for your statement that they "need a little more help there".

have you ever even SEEN a TWH, much less ridden one??? if not, you have no basis for comparision, so don't even try.

and in case you missed it: i HAVE been on a number of horses that were pacey; not a "fun" ride, and nowhere comparable to a TWH gait. just as soon get on a camel, lol


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Don, the show ring terriers are pretty well know as pacers by nature (short backs) but it will be peanalized in the show ring.
> A correctly trotting dog will often put it's rear foot in the track of it's front foot. With to short a back it has a couple of options to keep from stepping on it's front feet. That's pace, as in both legs on the same side move in unison of one another OR it can crab walk. Speeding up will also help.
> I showed a very short backed Kerry (not mine) in the show ring. To keep him from pacing (incorrect movement) I would lift his front feet off of the ground (by the collar and leash) at the first step or two and this made him reach out with the front feet, thus avoinding the pace. If I slowed down moving him around the ring I would have to do a quick lift on the lead to get the trot back.
> Also, the loss of reach in the front end doesn't have to happen with correct breeding. To many get it from being to straight in the shoulders. Bred correctly, it's accomplished by breeding for a short second bone in the leg. The straight shoulders will often show up as a hackney gait. High stepper with no ground covered.
> Not ment to go into the  show world but good movement is a part of a good dog. doesn't mean it has to be a show dog.


Your right Bob, anything can be bred correctly, but, many dales can't get their front legs more than 30 degrees from the ground so they end up with very short, fast leg movement.
I should have stayed out of this thread because when I decided the conformation of the standard was BS for a working dog, I didn't analyse it. I ran them in groups in front of the truck and bred the best easiest movers. That removed all doubt as to what was right or wrong. The result was a dog with a very low tailset, and much longer legs and back. Most are also slightly roach backed. Here is a picture I received of a 5 mo old. He is already taller than the standard, very low tailset instead of coming off the top of the back.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Don, you breed correct structure for the correct reasons. You don't need to know all about bone length and alll the other bs. You just breed what works. Seems a lot easier that way! You just didn't know you were a conformation breeder. :lol::wink:
Before the Victorian era when "show" dogs became popular I suspect that how it was done!


----------



## Butch Cappel (Aug 12, 2007)

Ladies,
Don't forget your Farrier in all this horse talk. But it looks like Don and Bob are back to dogs already!


----------



## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

ann freier said:


> maggie, we're more than a "little"" OT here, but i have to tell you, unless you have seen a TWH foal "waliking" from day one, you really have no basis for your statement that they "need a little more help there".
> 
> have you ever even SEEN a TWH, much less ridden one??? if not, you have no basis for comparision, so don't even try.
> 
> and in case you missed it: i HAVE been on a number of horses that were pacey; not a "fun" ride, and nowhere comparable to a TWH gait. just as soon get on a camel, lol


Why would you assume I had neither seen nor ridden a TWH ?? I have as a matter of fact, in your home country, ridden a lot of horses and a lot of different breeds. I'm not undermining your claims at all, just putting across pacing being a two time lateral movement, if a little tongue in cheek - keep your shirt on!

And Butch, very good point! :-D


----------



## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

maggie fraser said:


> keep your shirt on!
> :-D


Or not! \\/


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Whoa! Edward - you're moving at a fast pace - that's called "galloping"!


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

maggie fraser said:


> I might be wrong here but the breeds mentioned.... twh, paso fino, missouri foxtrotter etc. are not pacers, they're gaited horses some of them having a high action but move on the diagonals at trot, the pacer (standardbred) moves laterally.... oh and are shit to ride, can't beat a good thoroughbred! :grin:


Yeah, forgot to mention this...my friend has three TWHs, but two out of the three (one in particular) are suspected to have American Standardbred in them. The registered TWH she has goes straight into his gait and is quite comfortable. One of the "pacey" TWHs that I've ridden (haven't ridden the other as he's pretty firey and I'm not much better than a novice rider) paces and then you slow him up a big and he settles into his gait. That's pretty clunky and uncomfortable.


----------



## Sarah Atlas (Dec 15, 2008)

For whatever it is worth, in standardbred race horses , a trotting horse pacing can also indicate soreness. Usually over the back


----------

