# Developing foundation bitework without a helper



## Josh Smith (Jan 14, 2009)

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *James Larkey*
> _I have met and worked with a police k9 instructor who also works his own dogs in prey and performs much of the foundation for bitework himself. He works SERIOUS dogs. Probably too much dog for most. His dogs know the difference between a game that he controls and biting the bad guy. _
> 
> ...


Figured this would work better in its own thread.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

If you have never done this, maybe you should let someone else do it. LOL


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

Josh- what I have done when developing younger dogs without a helper,(it is not ideal, but sometimes necessary). I have made it a game,( you do not want your dog believing he can bite you out of aggression,) in this "game" I am focusing on the quality of bite on a tug, or a sleeve, and I would work on the out guard and escort with an escape-(a lot of your basic obedience is put to work here-the reward then being the tug or sleeve bite)sometimes I will put the dog in a down stay out of sight, go hide in the woods and call him-I can then make him either sit and bark before rewarding him, or I can immediately give him a reward tug bite, the dog can learn all of this first as a game,when they are having fun, they learn fast and later these exercises can be transitioned into work. When doing this find in the woods or with blinds, I make sure I go back out to the open, and do a formal recall, the dogs are smart enough to know what they should be doing in each situation.

also Jerry Bradshaw is an expert-I would definately respect any of his training suggestions.


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

I know someone who has won a couple of world championship that does 90% + of the protection work on his own dogs.

The key is...
...you know what you are doing or you think you know what you are doing.

Max


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

I know someone who has won a couple of world championship who does 90%+ of the bitework on his own dogs.

the secret is he knows what is doing. 

Do you know what you are doing or do you think to know?

Max


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

You MUST know what your doing when you do this!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I will say that if you are brand new to this stuff, the best game to play is tug on a string.


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## Josh Smith (Jan 14, 2009)

Point taken. I do not know what I am doing so I will refrain from trying this out. Thanks for the advice.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Go to a club, and watch the helpers. Get them to show you some stuff you can do with your dog. To me, I think that the good foundation you should be putting on is in the obedience. 

Many people fall short on the importance of having good obedience.


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Go to a club, and watch the helpers. Get them to show you some stuff you can do with your dog. To me, I think that the good foundation you should be putting on is in the obedience.
> 
> Many people fall short on the importance of having good obedience.


See, I want my dog's OB to be perfect or damn near it. There are very few others in our club who feel the same however. They think that the OB is better taught after a good bitework foundation. While I disagree and feel that a good solid OB foundation is key to having good solid bitework. 

Courtney


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

I agree 100%. OB is the cornerstone of all good aggression work.


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## Matt McGuire (Feb 26, 2009)

Obedience and protection go hand in hand. You have to have one when you have the other. For the simple reason that you need to be able to control your dog. A dog that just knows protection without obedience could be concidered a dangerous dog. I do not agree with your club, in that bite work is the precurser to obedience. It is just the opposite, imo. Befroe starting serious protection, not prey or play biting the dog needs to understand that you the trainer is the teacher and just like a child can help it know the difference from right and wrong. 
The first thing I do with my puppies is learning the obedience positions. In between learning the foundation of obedience I use a rag or tug to teach play biting and building drive for the bite. In essense they learn them together. 
Just because a club is a club does not make what they do correct and right. It depends on what level you are wanting to train and what kind of dog you want. People are fallible and you must do research on you own to find out what you want, then you will bring something new to the club which will make it better. Be creative, learn through trial and error then you will be fine. Dog training is not an exact science. With that said you still must follow the basic rules, like if you want to train your dog to bite people then you have to be able to control your dog. Not through force mind you but realize that you are a team. The dog cannot do the work without you and you cannot do the work without the dog. 

I agree with the previous poster, to play with your dog and build a foundation for bitework through play and prey. When it comes to your dog you can't be serious all the time, have fun. Just remember that bitwork and obedience go hand in hand. If the dog doesn't know to listen to you, you will have a hard time trying to get obedience on the protection field. 

Sorry for the typos I'm writing from my phone. 

Cheers


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Go to a club, and watch the helpers. Get them to show you some stuff you can do with your dog. To me, I think that the good foundation you should be putting on is in the obedience.
> 
> Many people fall short on the importance of having good obedience.


I'm of that mind set as well. Ob comes first. With a solid foundation, to me anyway, it seems everything else goes a lot smoother.

DFrost


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## Josh Smith (Jan 14, 2009)

Thank you all for the very helpful posts!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

At our club your not allowed to do bite work if you don't also do the obedience work first.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

We had someone visit our club and was amazed we didn't do bitework before OB. He stated that you have to get the dog in drive before OB[-X .
Maybe some people can't get their dog in drive during OB, just a thought.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Edward Egan said:


> Maybe some people can't get their dog in drive during OB, just a thought.


Sometimes ya even have to wonder if some of these "trainers" can get a dog out of park, let alone into drive.

DFrost


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

In the club we had, we did the OB after the bitework-which was actually more difficult for some of the new handlers as their dogs wanted to still do the bite stuff, not the sit and stay etc. stuff...and everyone participated in OB, and overtime got better and better.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

David Frost said:


> Sometimes ya even have to wonder if some of these "trainers" can get a dog out of park, let alone into drive.
> 
> DFrost


 
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Lovin that one! 
I see to many folks that feel the need for a lot of whip cracking to get the dogs "fired up" for bite work. WTF! :-o 
Our dogs will drag us on the field for bite work OR obedience!
Just open the car door and say "Are you ready?" 
Hell, just walk towards the car with your leash in your hand! :wink:


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