# Hano 14mos. having a good time



## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

here is some training clips Keith took, Hano having some afternoon fun-he is now 14 months old....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQ3EO40reR4


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

very nice...


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

thanks Will,this is the pup I had at the gathering, not sure if you remember him...


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

When are you going to put some control on that dog ? And how in the name of all that is holy, is he fat ? I cannot keep weight on either Mal. Little knuckleheads burn it all off.


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## Keith Earle (Mar 27, 2006)

Mike S. your little boy is coming along nice,jeff His ob is doing fine dont fret.


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## manny rose (Jun 3, 2010)

The pup looks pretty good..decoy ortheolder man watching should have read the dog better and toned down the pressure and put pressure in slowly...First grip was good but as pressure built you can tell the dog gets uncomfortable and growls while on the bite....not always a bad thing i like some fight inmy dogs but if i send him into bite again and same pressure pulls him off the bite id say hes not fighting confidently its probably nerves or training progression to fast...id Suggest a helper who teaches a dog how to win everytime at that age 14 mths. Putting that much pRessure on a Young dog with no release beyond him biting and no clear picture to the Young dog that he won could backfire when you add in control because hes giving you all he has to stay in the fight And then you want control he asks! JMO and everyone trains diff. But i am of the mindset that heis a young dog and young dogs should always win..GOOD training impresses People not look how much pressure my young dog can take before he pops offthe bite...just calm it down a little..my2cents!


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

_When are you going to put some control on that dog ?_ ....Next video 

_"The pup looks pretty good..decoy or the older man watching should have read the dog better and toned down the pressure and put pressure in slowly...First grip was good but as pressure built you can tell the dog gets uncomfortable and growls while on the bite"

_Actually" the decoy and the older man watching"- have MORE experience in training dogs for REAL life scenario- (and have also trained sport) than the whole lot of us put together-they have such awesome dogs themselves- I hope Hano works out to be half of what their dogs are.... I am so so lucky to be able to train with them....some may think the growling is a Nerve thing, these guys I am training with say in this case, it is not- they also encourage in training a dog to change his grip, for a better bite- and in Hano's case during this training time, he never leaves the fight,he comes off, but he digs right back into it.


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## Greg Whelehan (Dec 1, 2008)

Mo Earle said:


> *they also encourage in training a dog to change his grip, for a better bite*- and in Hano's case during this training time, he never leaves the fight,he comes off, but he digs right back into it.


Mo are you saying they encourage the dog to come off the grip to get a better bite/grip? Also growling isn't a nerve issue???

Can you explain their/your thinking? 

Also what's the pedigree of the dog?


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Greg Whelehan said:


> Mo are you saying they encourage the dog to come off the grip to get a better bite/grip? Also growling isn't a nerve issue???
> 
> Can you explain their/your thinking?
> 
> Also what's the pedigree of the dog?


was wondering the very same thing...am intrested to see what the answer is. hes lost weight but hecould lose a few more pounds....now its not my area of sports but the whole regripping thing ? am curious as to why how and what the reasoning would be.


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

Hano is a Belgian Malinois- Sire Hector, Dam Hannah from Logan Haus kennels, just a great all around dog- very much a thinker- quick learner- but has a dominant side to him to.
As far as the re-grip, actually the guys train a transfer- for example if the dog comes in on a leg bite- dog is not staying there- immediately after that bite, he is coming up- the goal is to disable the man.

One of the differences is, they don't train for sport- in sport, the goal is usually to get the dog to target, bite and stay on that grip- these guys are used to training for military, prison and police, and a dog that works like sport, staying on one spot, especially a leg dog- they feel is more vulnerable in the real life situation and could easily become a dead dog. So they have taught the dogs, to go for the better bite, they teach them to climb the decoy, for the dog to use their back legs when on the bite, if lifted off, they will release and come back in for a better advantage, if they don't climb. The goal is to disable the man. 

Some think Hano is heavier than he should be- he is a solid little guy, his diet was changed, he definately lost weight- I can feel his ribs now when I touch his sides- so I don't think he is fat, I think he is a lot of muscle and I would be willing to send him on you, then you could give me your opinion-but I am continuing to monitor his food. 

I have trained for and participated in a lot of sports- FR, NVBK,PSA, ASR, APPDA,.....and had fun with it-with a variety of my dogs -I thought I knew quite a bit about training dogs....after being with these guys....no not so much, I have volumes more to learn, ... there was a time, I would have wondered, if the dog being verbal on the bite would of been a sign of weak nerves- these guys have assured me, that this is not the case now with Hano- and I have seen a few of their dogs- very verbal, and I absolutely without a doubt can say their dog does not have a nerve problem...actually in Kelly's case,you know she is coming,and she is pissed....she is wailing like it is her 911 call for you- she means business and you are her target! She is so awesome!


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

What happens if the decoy goes to the ground? I would not want a dog thinking it's OK to try and regrip and possibly get the face or head area.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Mo Earle said:


> As far as the re-grip, actually the guys train a transfer- for example if the dog comes in on a leg bite- dog is not staying there- immediately after that bite, he is coming up- the goal is to disable the man.
> 
> One of the differences is, they don't train for sport- in sport, the goal is usually to get the dog to target, bite and stay on that grip- these guys are used to training for military, prison and police, and a dog that works like sport, staying on one spot, especially a leg dog- they feel is more vulnerable in the real life situation and could easily become a dead dog. So they have taught the dogs, to go for the better bite, they teach them to climb the decoy, for the dog to use their back legs when on the bite, if lifted off, they will release and come back in for a better advantage, if they don't climb. The goal is to disable the man.


Hi,

The dog if it bites a leg, will automatically come off and come up? And if lifted will automatically pop off and regrip?

I have a little experience with traning transfer bites in response to striking the dog, that was trained earlier in the dogs experience and was taught by striking the dog.

If you have the time, can you explain a little bit of the training process for this? How do you train a dog to pop off a leg automatically, or drop off a bite when lifted?

I have zero military experience, but do have limited experience with prison cell extraction dogs and with police K9, all of the dogs that I have seen working were not trained like this, most agencies do not want someone to be bitten 4-5-6 times due to the physical damage it can cause, and the possible liability that may come with that...to each his own though...

I have seen 2 "riot" type dogs, that were very aggressive, hectic, and would pop off frequently. That was more a result of the dog itself than the training, they were hectic, chewy, and almost never took more than a half mouth bite. They would surely chew somebody up, they werent running away from anything, but the nerves were a part of the equation for sure in the work.

I am not knocking the work or judging it at all, just curious as to the methodology of the training.

Thanks


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> Hi,
> 
> The dog if it bites a leg, will automatically come off and come up? And if lifted will automatically pop off and regrip?
> 
> ...


Military Dogs are not trained in this manner either......NOT US Military anyway...


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## Greg Whelehan (Dec 1, 2008)

Mo Earle said:


> Hano is a Belgian Malinois- Sire Hector, Dam Hannah from Logan Haus kennels
> 
> *Nice Pedigree...... Heard great things about Hector.*
> 
> ...


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Why do people seem to enjoy vids of pups that are vocal on bites but call it nerves if the dog is older ??

I have a dog that when I play tug with him growls like a sob, is that nerves ?


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Why do people seem to enjoy vids of pups that are vocal on bites but call it nerves if the dog is older ??
> 
> I have a dog that when I play tug with him growls like a sob, is that nerves ?


I dont like dogs that growl my Jett growls when hes really fired up even when we start obedience hes growly with him its not a bad sort of growl but it puts up a red flag to the Judge and they start getting in looking for movement. I asked Troy Seaton candidly what he seen after working him on his Schutzhund III his reply no change or shift in the bite NO PROBLEMS Troy's big and goes after the dog he definitely tests them.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

I've got a handler aggressive , extremely possesive , territorial , growly SOB . 

Growls when he gets in the squad , out of the squad , over his food , toys , in his crate , kennel . The dog just growls all the time . On the bite he will growl but it's more of a handler issue because it starts and increases the more I move in . He's been in alot of real good fights and never even thought of bailing nor does he more around excessively on a bite . 

It was always something I was aware of from the time I got him as a 2 year old "green" PSD candidate and it never turned into an issue . Ok, it was a sign that I should try to bond with him or his out could be an issue . Never was able to truely bond with him and his out was an issue but I eventually got it . Nerve issue I'd say yes . Sign it was a weak dog . Hell no .

I'm with Mike though . I don't like growly dogs and it is something I would pay close attention to .


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

_"What happens if the decoy goes to the ground? I would not want a dog thinking it's OK to try and regrip and possibly get the face or head area".

_For Sport- I agree absolutely do not want a decoy getting bit in the face or head in sport- in real life if you are coming in to hurt me or mine- I could careless where the dog disables you.
_
"The dog if it bites a leg, will automatically come off and come up? And if lifted will automatically pop off and regrip?_"

If the dog comes in and bites *the leg*-they ARE being trained to come off and come up-the feeling is that is a very dangerous position for a dog to remain in- great to first disable the bad guy, but not to stay there, where a bad guy could shove a knife for example in the dogs side....but no, that would not be good for those who want to train French Ring sport to their dog.... but all the bites are taught -first to be strong and full- being transitioned through the usual training- tug, sleeve, intro to suit, suit- from the back tie, to the table,to the bungie,to short runs, to long runs, close ups....etc- if we have to back up, because a dogs bite becomes shallow or not strong-the dog is backed up...then
after the foundation, Now they will teach the dog to transition the bite* IF* needed. The dogs are taught to target the center chest, the arm pit area, the back-center and back armpit area- *but if they for some reason miss their mark, they are taught how to transition, how to get to their mark.*
If the dog is lifted up-they don't automatically pop off ,- hopefully they will have a strong full bite and will be able to stay with that bite,but IF they do lose that bite, lose their grip, they are taught to go right back in-also when on the bite-a good bite , without letting go- they are also taught to move around- without letting go of their bite...toward the decoys back, or climb up them, use their legs against the decoy-to have an advantage over the decoy- SHOULD the dog pop off, THEN yes, they are taught to move right back in for a better grip. Sorry if this sounded confusing to some when I was trying to explain it- It is really hard to explain here- but they are not being trained to be hectic all over the place, popping off on purpose - (also keep in mind Hano is only 14 months old-he is still learning-he did lose his grip, but he went right back in )

As far as Nerve- I guess it goes to everyone's own definition- when I refer to a dog, is that his "nerves"- or is he a nervy dog....I am using the word to describe a dog, that does not really have the desire to be there, maybe does not have the courage to stay with the fight, is frightened with the situation- and is actually looking for a way out....so in this case with my definition, the guys have told me absolutely not the case....I could be wrong, but the way I am taking some of the descriptions here Nerve equals the dogs mood, or attitude??? I don't know, yes he becomes pissed for lack of better term, he gets verbal-sometimes they throw him over the edge-and getting him to OUT and calm can take a little work, so if that is describing what nerves are to some people- I would agree with that. But that would bring us to a whole different discussion- what does a Nervy dog, or Nerves mean to you?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Mo Earle said:


> _
> "The dog if it bites a leg, will automatically come off and come up? And if lifted will automatically pop off and regrip?_"
> 
> If the dog comes in and bites *the leg*-they ARE being trained to come off and come up-the feeling is that is a very dangerous position for a dog to remain in- great to first disable the bad guy, but not to stay there, where a bad guy could shove a knife for example in the dogs side.


Hey Mo, really was not critiquing or criticising the methods or the dog, I was wondering HOW you train a dog to come up off the leg...

Is the decoy just freezing, and making the leg uneventful? or something else?

And was hoping to hear HOW a dog is trained to let go of a bite when he is lifted off the ground...

Just trying to get my head around the training methods for that...

Thanks if you have the time. PM if you want to avoid a big discussion about it...


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

So do you do any training with the decoys on the ground. What if a decoy gets taking down with the dog. What will the dog do?


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

In theory it sounds good to not have the dog swung into the corner of a brick wall or whatever. I think Dick V. said that everyone he ever sent his dogs on curled up in the fetal position within seconds due to the intense pain. Maybe you just need a harder biting dog that somebody can't lift off the ground once they engage.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

todd pavlus said:


> What if a decoy gets taking down with the dog. What will the dog do?


Possibly? Don't know the dog so don't believe me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cr0O4WfO0SM&feature=youtube_gdata_player


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Possibly? Don't know the dog so don't believe me.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cr0O4WfO0SM&feature=youtube_gdata_player


Work slow today???
How'd you find such an entertaining video


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

todd pavlus said:


> Work slow today???
> How'd you find such an entertaining video


Yes, LOL. It was random and weird but so am I. 
The typewriter bite can subdue the fiercest combatitive criminals.


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

Just teach the dog to bite behind the knee then. With a good properly trained dog this is a brutally painful bite, and would be alot harder to do any damage to a dog if it were a"real life" situation. Then the dog can pop off the arm and go to the back of the leg:lol:. Looks like a nice dog. Wonder how it would look with "normal" bitework foundation and training.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

a dog that comes off like that even with training sounds more of a nerve bag too me. Maybe he isn't, just saying, how is this dogs possession? Military and Police don't train like that all, they want the dog to bite all over the body, but once the bite, not to move around and be hectic. They don't teach targeting bacause they want the dog to feel free to bite pretty much anywhere, however once on the bite TO HOLD! 

Seems to me you are training AGAINST the dogs natural desire to bite and hold/possess, which in turn the dog may go back to his instints later on.....


Who am I, you may be on to something new as well...


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

The dog does look fine but It is really hard to tell if the bite transfers are voluntary or trained and with the growling maybe they are more voluntary on the dogs part. 

I agree Todd, if the dog bites super hard on the leg their is to much pain with a big dog. I would think the first instinct of any person would be to grab it's jaws and "try" to pull them apart to relieve the pressure. Hope I never have to find out.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

the bite transfers are actually old school stuff that the older I guy I worked with used to teach in the 80's just for the reason the poster gave. It's not something he made up cause I heard the same reasoning. Doesn't mean I agree with it but it's not like he has s 55 pound mal that someone could throw around, that dog must be close to 85 pounds.


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

J.Becker- definately not taking it as criticism- just like to share what I am doing with my dogs- that is why I got on the forum, to learn and share... I don't usually brag about them, I do like to share and exchange info though - some people may not agree how we train, some people can get righteous and defensive in saying what should be or not be, what should be done or not done...that is ok-I would love- love- love to see their dogs and how they respond...., I can say with confidence, when our dogs need to step up to the plate, they can and do well, - those who went to the Working Dog Forum Gathering... saw a few of our dogs- and our clubs dogs-and all of our dogs did awesome.... !!! We had a blast, and if I remember correctlyO it was our club that took the TOP 6 spots at the gathering, with Tom's dog also in there!!! sorry I said I try not to brag #-oBut with that said, one of the members in a gathering post, mentioned a comment about our dogs...and I think it went, whatever they are doing, it is working. I can't take credit for all of it, I am sure lucky to be able to train with these guys and other guys I have learned from in the past.

-to answer- I will PM you, but to make it clear, we don't train to MAKE the dog pop off when it is lifted off the ground-hopefully they get a great grip and stay on, we train to get a full, hard, firm bite...but we do train, IF the dog does pop off, IF the dog doesn't get a good bite and comes off, to go right back in, and get a better bite.

Todd- yes we train on the ground, we train under cars, we train in the woods, thru fire and smoke...that was a blast, I will have to find some pics to post, over chairs, in cars,multiple dogs sent at once, what else- anyway, the decoys protect their faces, their heads,their hands, feet - I guess it comes with a lot of experience, they tell me don't worry about them- they will be fine- they try mostly to put the dog exactly where they want them and they fight the dog- during training, the dog learns to deal with the fight and these guys put it on... Hope that makes sense.

and Timothy...seriously??? ......and others wonder why the true trainers, the real mentors -the ones with the real history, the real knowledge to share, a few of them, like the guys I am so fortunate to train with...to learn from...allow me to pick their brains for their dog knowledge, tend to stay away from responding on these boards and sharing what they know.....can you explain your analogy to dog training and typing with sterile gloves on-because I missed your point?


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

There is nothing wrong with your dog Mo, don't get hyper sensitive on me. I understand what you are doing. How do I know if the dog started doing it voluntarily or not and you just went with it. If you say it's purposeful than I believe you and if that's what you like then that's fine. But there are plenty of dogs that do that stuff on their own cause they can't deal with the pressure. If you say that's not the case with Hano I believe you. The analogy was that the dog would transfer his bite countinously like a type writer up and down the decoys arm or leg. It was a god awful attempt at humor in which I'm paying dearly for at the moment. Who are your trainers? I saw some video of table training with Hano. Why is the table so large. I'm asking cause I don't know. Thank you and no more sarcasm with you!


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

_"Military and Police don't train like that all, they want the dog to bite all over the body, but once the bite, not to move around and be hectic. They don't teach targeting bacause they want the dog to feel free to bite pretty much anywhere, however once on the bite TO HOLD!"

_yes,ok - Whatever you say, this conversation is not to get so upset over, it is meant to be a discussion if anything, sharing experiences and what you have learned or not learned.... some police dept, actually only teach their dogs to target the arm(sleeve) which leaves them to be at a disadvantage....and the some units of the military may not use the type of training we are doing- but many are and do ....and I think you misunderstood how we are training- obviously I haven't explained it well- yes in the video, Hano popped off the bite when the decoy moved his arms upward- but he didn't hesitate to move back in- and re-grip- he is also only 14 months old, a lot of green dogs are older than that- he has a lot to learn, but so far we like his progress. 
We aren't training to move all around to be hectic,biting all over the body- -- but yes in our training and in the military- they do teach targeting-yes, even in the military -but they do teach the dogs to feel free-feel comfortable to bite anywhere-anywhere the target is presented(the target being the body part seen by the dog),and to get a good bite....and once they bite they do HOLD, but they are taught, if they lose that grip to be comfortable to come in for a really strong bite and to move away from the striking hand or weapon WHILE STAYING on the bite.....


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Where are you getting your information from on Police and military dogs and how they train?


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Mo Earle said:


> _"Military and Police don't train like that all, they want the dog to bite all over the body, but once the bite, not to move around and be hectic. They don't teach targeting bacause they want the dog to feel free to bite pretty much anywhere, however once on the bite TO HOLD!"_
> 
> yes,ok - Whatever you say, this conversation is not to get so upset over, it is meant to be a discussion if anything, sharing experiences and what you have learned or not learned.... some police dept, actually only teach their dogs to target the arm(sleeve) which leaves them to be at a disadvantage....and the some units of the military may not use the type of training we are doing- but many are and do ....and I think you misunderstood how we are training- obviously I haven't explained it well- yes in the video, Hano popped off the bite when the decoy moved his arms upward- but he didn't hesitate to move back in- and re-grip- he is also only 14 months old, a lot of green dogs are older than that- he has a lot to learn, but so far we like his progress.
> We aren't training to move all around to be hectic,biting all over the body- -- but yes in our training and in the military- they do teach targeting-yes, even in the military -but they do teach the dogs to feel free-feel comfortable to bite anywhere-anywhere the target is presented(the target being the body part seen by the dog),and to get a good bite....and once they bite they do HOLD, but they are taught, if they lose that grip to be comfortable to come in for a really strong bite and to move away from the striking hand or weapon WHILE STAYING on the bite.....


 
Not getting upset over anything, was just commenting on what I see/thought/etc etc

Sorry, but maybe Military did that years ago, but they don't train like that now at all, and I am sure most PD's don't either, but cannot speak for all


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Mo Earle said:


> _"Military and Police don't train like that all, they want the dog to bite all over the body, but once the bite, not to move around and be hectic. They don't teach targeting bacause they want the dog to feel free to bite pretty much anywhere, however once on the bite TO HOLD!"_
> 
> yes,ok - Whatever you say, this conversation is not to get so upset over, it is meant to be a discussion if anything, sharing experiences and what you have learned or not learned.... some police dept, actually only teach their dogs to target the arm(sleeve) which leaves them to be at a disadvantage....and the some units of the military may not use the type of training we are doing- but many are and do ....and I think you misunderstood how we are training- obviously I haven't explained it well- yes in the video, Hano popped off the bite when the decoy moved his arms upward- but he didn't hesitate to move back in- and re-grip- he is also only 14 months old, a lot of green dogs are older than that- he has a lot to learn, but so far we like his progress.
> We aren't training to move all around to be hectic,biting all over the body- -- but yes in our training and in the military- they do teach targeting-yes, even in the military -but they do teach the dogs to feel *free-feel comfortable to bite anywhere-anywhere the target is presented(the target being the body part seen by the dog),and to get a good bite....and once they bite they do HOLD, but they are taught, if they lose that grip to be comfortable to *come in for a really strong bite and to move away from the striking hand or weapon WHILE STAYING on the bite.....


 
I understand this...


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

_"There is nothing wrong with your dog Mo, don't get hyper sensitive on me. I understand what you are doing. How do I know if the dog started doing it voluntarily or not and you just went with it. If you say it's purposeful than I believe you and if that's what you like then that's fine. But there are plenty of dogs that do that stuff on their own cause they can't deal with the pressure. If you say that's not the case with Hano I believe you. The analogy was that the dog would transfer his bite countinously like a type writer up and down the decoys arm or leg. It was a god awful attempt at humor in which I'm paying dearly for at the moment. Who are your trainers? I saw some video of table training with Hano. Why is the table so large. I'm asking cause I don't know. Thank you and no more sarcasm with you!""

_Timothy, I have been accused of taking things to seriously-and when it comes to dog training, that is one of my areas.....I am also blonde, so I am slow to absorb some of the humor and jokes, I will be first to admit..- and we definately don't teach or encourage type writer biting.....
I have to go back and look at the "table" you are talking about-we have a couple on the training field and we do table training with our dogs- a dreaded discussion for some, but it has to be because they are using it differently....

I have been fortunate to be able to train with many different members of K9 units from different organizations around the state of Florida- I took care of the police K9's in our city-where I used to live, in my kennels, and I have a lot of friends that have been or are active military, or retired military, and friends that are and have in the past trained prison dogs....and believe me- I pick their brains,and ask for their pointers-attitudes etc.....


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

xx number of years of experience doesn't mean that much if those years were doing something wrong, ancient, or not of any relevance.

Not taking away from anyone, just a general statement........


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Who do you train with Mo?
Being blonde is a handicap and I excuse that. That was a joke.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Since the dog has been taught to avoid hits I wonder if it would be held off from a stick barrage?


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

Like I said, Looks like a nice dog. At 14 months though I would still be developing his bite and teaching him how to drive in and be confident on the bite. A little give and take....Give the dog some heat and then lay off and let him fight and work his bite. I think any good dog that shown proper foundation bite work and bite devlopement will not come off a bite, and if they do, they do not need to be taught to come back at ya. That would be a given. Do you have any video of how he was taught to bite, or is this it?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

There has been 5-6 times with this current dog that I have that she has come off to regrip.

She still occasionally will go center mass high with a new (to the dog) decoy that does not give a decent shot at her target areas. Or, if he comes on real strong to the dog, with a lot of presence, charging her, every so often she takes the guy head on and goes center...](*,)](*,)

It does depend on the suit, and what the decoy does as far as giving dog something to get in her mouth. If the dog is not able to get a big grip on the chest because decoy stands up straight or suit is real flat, she has let go and grabbed the shoulder or bicep, where she can fill her mouth. The other time has been on a back bite, when the decoy strung her up over his back and kept the suit real tight, basically leaving her nothing to grip, she dropped down to the back of the knee. 

If decoy is fair about it and makes sure the dog is able to get a full grip on the chest or back, she has never come off, but does seem to get a little more frustrated trying to get some part of the body in there as well, and is not as calm about it.

I have seen this with quite a few dogs, in these situations...

I just assumed (maybe incorrectly) that the dog wants a productive bite.


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## Wayne Dodge (Mar 7, 2008)

I am on my phone... so post will be short. 

I have not trained with Mo and this dog, yet I do know the guy who runs training for that club and I will say he always produces a solid dog in the end, even if I don't always see the path that he chooses.... the destination has always been pleasing....... just my opinion.


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