# Shaping vs. Teaching



## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

I guess "teaching" would be lure/reward. What I mean if teaching the dog a specific behavior (luring into a sit) and rewarding. Versus shaping it, catching the dog in a sit and then rewarding it.

I've always used quite a bit of shaping, rewarding the best behaviors, possibly correcting the weakest, and that sort of thing. But I haven't very often shaped an entire behavior. I'm exploring it a lot more with my current dog, it started because I had to avoid health issues and then I saw our training develop into the next level, one that I previously thought was beyond him. I'm not sure if we're working towards correction free training, but I suppose that's the goal of shaping? If done correctly you won't need corrections in the end?

He works well under pressure, so I can get GREAT heeling with a pinch collar or ecollar, but it falls apart the instant the collar comes off. I prepped for our last trial without a pinch for that reason. I feel I got better results, at least they were more consistent from in training and in trial. Still not where I want it to be, but a WIP. I'm now going back and completely re-teaching our heeling, with shaping. M&R for any eye contact, I'm starting with standing still (one spot, then I'll take a step forward and repeat the process from that spot) and then depending on the session I'll try walking slowly and M&Ring eye contact. Rewards are positioned up at my hip, possibly maneuvering him into heel position if he is way out. We're not working on positioning yet, just shaping that eye contact. I can get video if that was unclear.

I haven't done much with my Mali yet regarding training, but I'm considering going this route for him too, just for shits and giggles. I don't plan on going beyond club with him, so no harm no foul. 

I understand that the method is only as valuable as the trainer, I'm looking for people who have done both, or shaping with any kind of serious work. True pros and cons in a working dog world (particularly with protection work).


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## Natasha Keating (Apr 8, 2010)

http://susangarrettdogagility.com/2011/08/the-possibilities-in-dog-training/
this is from Susan Garrett. May be this would be of interest to you.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

I use a lot of shaping for agility and obedience training, but then I dont use corrections for either of these sports. 

I shape all the contact work and also heeling, eye contact, weaver entries, dumbell retrieve, finish positions, looking forward to their jumping line on the agility start line rather than at me (Susan Garrett) etc.

My dogs are really motivated by it and they will try and work out what I want. I find it makes the behaviour really solid.


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

Sara Waters said:


> My dogs are really motivated by it and they will try and work out what I want. *I find it makes the behaviour really solid.*


Compared to what?


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## Louise Jollyman (Jun 2, 2009)

I lure, I shape, I use the prong and the e-collar. I shape the retrieve for all my dogs as puppies, then I add electric later. Yes, you can shape from start to finish, but it takes longer and you have to do lots of repetitions in lots of different places. 

Dogs only become collar wise if you correct them every time the collar is on. If you still need to use the prong or e-collar correction when training, you are not yet ready to trial.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Jackie Lockard said:


> Compared to what?


I cant compare it to other methods anymore because once I started working that way I found it was a pretty good way of working with them. I usually train either in a flat collar but mostly without a collar.

They are I guess what you call operant when we start training and I find them really tuned into trying things. I find I dont needs lots of repetitions because they work it out pretty fast, but I obviously use repetition to maintain and refine. I generally graduate to a sliding scale of reward once they have the general idea so they know when they hit the jackpot and it seems to spur them on. 

I think because they have to work out the exact position or behaviour I want it seems to seems to make the behaviour solid. I guess like we learn by experimenting as to what gets us the best reward.

I also enjoy training that way, my dogs make me laugh with some of the things they try. No idea how it would be for protection.

I generally dont train sheepwork with shaping as in that situation I am working with natural born instincts and concentrate more on putting commands on those instincts. So I can assist if I need to.


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

I just realized that I posted this in the wrong section...should have been in the Training Discussion below... *mod note: moved*


Sara, does everyone in your agility/ob clubs train the same way?

From what I've witnessed with other people using shaping how I would call correctly, which is very limited, I don't see them needing lots of reps. I tell all my clients to shape eye contact, not into a formal command or use, but as a way to establish general attention. The hard part is teaching the dog the process of shaping, after that shaping comes much easier in general. Just like any method of ob...it's teaching the dog how to learn.

I think "clicker training" and shaping resources are so limited and I feel like most of the information and results with the methods are half ass.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

My SCHIII, CDX, HT, TT, CGC dog Thunder earned these titles with no physical corrections. It was my choice to see how far i could go with it. Don't know that I'd ever take it that far again but 99% will be marker training. 
Shaping, marker training, etc don't have to be exclusive of correction if that's your choice. To many think it has to be one way or the other. 
I think the marker training can give a big jump on early work with a dog. How you continue is a personel choice. 
I also don't look at any method as "limited". It's the people that create the limits through lack of proper application. 
In marker/clicker training a lot of people will guide or lure the dog into the behavior then mark and reward. 
Shaping, IMO, it allowing the dog to find the behavior through trial and error, then marking and rewarding it.


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## Lisa Brazeau (May 6, 2010)

Well said, Bob!

As I see it, free-shaping shows the dog that THEIR BEHAVIOR produces a reward. A dog that understands that and is motivated will push you to work. That's really important for a high level sports dog - A dog that wants to do the job and is willing to try new things.

Luring makes the dog react to the reward. They are encouraged to look to you for information, which is also important in a high level sports dog.

Free-shaping can have fallout - ie. the dog learns that sit means hold your paw up at the same time when you 'capture' that behavior once..... Now the dog only sits holding it's paw up. So you have to be very precise, especially with a highly motivated dog.

So in the end you want to do some of both - create a thinking, creative dog who is willing to try new things without fear, and a dog who looks to you for information.


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

Lisa Brazeau said:


> So in the end you want to do some of both - create a thinking, creative dog who is willing to try new things without fear, and a dog who looks to you for information.


Even with shaping the dog is looking to you for reinforcement of his actions. I have seen with my dog, not so much now, but when I first started, that he would do things without any prompt at all. I taught him spin and we've never touched that since then. That was because of my lack of training on how to get things on cue only.

There was a comment on another thread recently that someone said the dogs that push their owners to do obedience are the ones at a higher level. I think that's pretty true, maybe easier to get with shaping than luring?


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

Bob, why not do it again? Was that specific dog capable and not most others? Was the obedience not as strong as your normal methods?


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## Natasha Keating (Apr 8, 2010)

Lisa Brazeau said:


> Free-shaping can have fallout - ie. the dog learns that sit means hold your paw up at the same time when you 'capture' that behavior once..... Now the dog only sits holding it's paw up. So you have to be very precise, especially with a highly motivated dog.
> 
> .


if someone shaping a SIT, that sit with the one paw up should not be marked and reinforced more than once or twice maximum. The dog who truly understands this way of learning is not scared of making a mistake and will offer a new behavior quickly.It's just the trainer needs to know what he is looking for and plan the training and be precise.
They say start shaping simple tricks first to introduce this type of learning(or teaching?)


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Jackie Lockard said:


> I just realized that I posted this in the wrong section...should have been in the Training Discussion below... *mod note: moved*
> 
> 
> Sara, does everyone in your agility/ob clubs train the same way?
> ...


Jackie, I live on a farm so have to train on my own. I generally learn from DVDS, books etc by people like Susan Garrett and the occassional working seminar held by our top handlers. However as the majority of clubs train with reward and toys I would imagine it is a tool people use. I know one of our top handlers told me she used shaping for contacts but is now starting to use it more widely with success. People are currently training running contacts and shaping seems to be what they are using. Dog tries by experimenting at full speed to hit the right spot.

I teach my dogs the process of shaping as first foundation work. I use perch work when I am starting with hind leg awareness to do this. I also use a cardboard box to see what I can shape them to do with it.
I reward the dog for touching the perch or putting a foot in a box to start with. Once they have the idea I wait to see what they try and capture what I want. They are so funny, they try all sorts of things but soon work out what I am really looking for. The only down side has been when I start training new equipment they sometimes start by touching it with their feet, particularly the broad jump initially. 

They soon stop once they realise that is not what I am looking for and try something else, but it has been quite amusing especially at a working seminar I went to when my dog tried to touch witches hats that he had never seen before with his back paws instead of running around them. He soon got the idea though.

I found it really handy when teaching weaver entries and my dogs are pretty rock solid on this.

My dogs are not afraid to try new things which is why I enjoy working that way. It has been really good way of working with a very timid but smart little kelpie that was rehomed with me. Her brain would go into a complete funk when I first got her, but now she enjoys training and learning because it has taught her to not be afraid to think, which she does with gusto.

My dogs and I will never be perfect because I live too far away from the action but they have usually always accounted for themselves well at trials and that is all I can ask of them.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

I am currently building a full size dog walk and have painted planks and pieces of wood I am using as stringers lying around. Two of my dogs came into the workshop with me and the sight of these planks sent them into an excited frenzy of offering me 2 on 2 off positions and all sorts of other touch sequeneces and running along planks. They were so enthusiastic, but I had to shoo them out. Not sure if this is desirable or not but it made me laugh anyway.


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## Christina Kennedy (Aug 25, 2010)

Sara,

I introduce my puppies to the clicker the very same way- with a litterbox or some type of box and the end result is going to the box, climbing in with all 4 feet, and sitting. It generally takes no more than 15 minutes with a young puppy to get then to figure out this game and have them offering the end behavior over and over with enthusiasm. I can then go on to train anything else without stress and while maintaining excitement and thinking of my puppies. I don't claim to be a "purely positive" trainer as I do use some corrections when needed at an older age and I also sometimes use luring. But clicker is where my passion is when the babies are young- My new baby shepherd just turned 9 weeks today and he learned to "moonwalk" (back up) this morning in one session. It was great fun for both of us!


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

I've always started shaping with 'high five', just lifting a front foot. I kinda like the idea of a box, or other target-specific, task better. High five has resulted in a default thing they resort to when confused, which isn't annoying, like spin. My Lab's default is a nose touch and then a light attempt to grab the item, which can also be problematic depending on what we're working on. I imagine the box gets the job done and eliminates the 'default', since if it's not around they can't try it. It sounds better because it really gets the dog moving and interacting with the environment better too.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jackie Lockard said:


> Bob, why not do it again? Was that specific dog capable and not most others? Was the obedience not as strong as your normal methods?


The club I belonged to had a a number of dogs that have titled under the marker method and no correction. 
I also believe that how strong the obedience is depends a lot on the bond and leadership between dog and handler but that can apply to any method of training. To many just do what they are told and don't have a clue why. 
The bottom line is my temperament may not be suited to it. :lol::lol::lol:


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Jackie Lockard said:


> I've always started shaping with 'high five', just lifting a front foot. I kinda like the idea of a box, or other target-specific, task better. High five has resulted in a default thing they resort to when confused, which isn't annoying, like spin. My Lab's default is a nose touch and then a light attempt to grab the item, which can also be problematic depending on what we're working on. I imagine the box gets the job done and eliminates the 'default', since if it's not around they can't try it. It sounds better because it really gets the dog moving and interacting with the environment better too.


Yes the box is fairly commonly used. I think I first saw it in an article in Clean Run and have seen versions there of in subsequent articles. I think the lady was using shaping as a method to teach unconventional agility dogs such as her bull terriers, that are rather more challenging to teach than Border collies and the like and started with the box.

I also use shaping to teach my dogs to back up and rotate their hind legs when doing a left about turn, which we do over here in obedience. Once they get the hang of it, it is really quite a fast method.

It suits my personality and the relationship I have with my dogs.


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