# "mal"- function



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

recently watched some expensive mals - not sure what ped - get tested for herding instinct;

a bit embarrassing to watch, dogs ran around aimlessly, lots of activity and not much else.

shows ya how far the fanatical selection for bite sports has ah impacted on the breeds.

dumb-ass city owners were happy though, they think they got a dog.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> dumb-ass city owners were happy though, they think they got a dog.


Maybe they did get a good dog, unless herding was their goal...was it purchased for herding purposes?

I have often thought of testing my dog for herding, who knows what the hell would happen...have no clue...but even if she sucked at it, I would still think I have a good dog...herding was not in my mind at all. 

I would assume anyone who seriously NEEDED a herding dog, for actual herding, would probably get a dog bred for that purpose.

What is way worse than that to me...is a Mal that really sucks at bite work...or is scared of its own shadow...


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

i'm a big believer in a dogs a good dog if the owner thinks it is, for sure - it is meaningless to say a dog is good or not good without a context for which the statement is being made. 

eg i personally own the 2 best in the world ever - what are they good for - not much, doesn't change the truth value of the statement though.

i do rate a dog especially a herding breed, mal/DS/GSD ect on some of the breeds original purpose, in fact i rate herding and hunting a general measure of "goodness" over anything else, thats just my bias. 

so i guess i am agreeing with you somehow. 

my angst is selecting for dogs traits so far from their original purpose.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

What do you mean by ran around aimlessly and lots of activity. "Dumb assed city people??" Who was the tester who didn't educate them on what you're looking for ideally.

Terrasita


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> my angst is selecting for dogs traits so far from their original purpose.


If everyone shared your opinion dogs would still be simi-tame 30 pound dogs, that live off of our scraps and trash.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> i'm a big believer in a dogs a good dog if the owner thinks it is, for sure - it is meaningless to say a dog is good or not good without a context for which the statement is being made.
> 
> eg i personally own the 2 best in the world ever - what are they good for - not much, doesn't change the truth value of the statement though.
> 
> ...


I get that too,and do agree... functions do change though with the times..Especially if the breeds are found to excel at other things.

I wonder how many mal/dutchie breeders % wise are breeding for herding functionality...let alone testing for it...

I used to breed Presa Canario, I had some stock that was used as catch dogs (cattle) and some illicit purposes, as well a guarding duties.....

Which function do you think I measured my stock in?


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> What do you mean by ran around aimlessly and lots of activity.
> 
> 
> self explanatory - ran around aimlessly??? - what more to say???
> ...


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

So what did all the other breeds there do? Just wondering...cause a couple of the herding instinct tests I've seen requires some cheerleading for the dog to even notice stock are even there 20 feet away. I've seen an assortment tried out, but my Mals are the only ones I've seen in person. *shrug* The first herding instinct test is kinda like when you first bring your pup or adult dog prospect out to the protection sport club for the training director to evaluate. Same thing, just very basic instinct.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Christopher Smith said:


> If everyone shared your opinion dogs would still be simi-tame 30 pound dogs, that live off of our scraps and trash.


Christopher i disagree in that, once the working breeds were in some way recognisable in traits (not necessarily uniform coat colour etc) to be called a breed your comment was invalid.

then along came the standards to formalise it sometimes long after - i have actually lived to see some non-breeds become breeds - downhill slide from here on for them.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> So what did all the other breeds there do? Just wondering...cause a couple of the herding instinct tests I've seen requires some cheerleading for the dog to even notice stock are even there 20 feet away. I've seen an assortment tried out, but my Mals are the only ones I've seen in person. *shrug* The first herding instinct test is kinda like when you first bring your pup or adult dog prospect out to the protection sport club for the training director to evaluate. Same thing, just very basic instinct.


 
not sure how you folks do it. the way we do is simple, throw a pup that has barely been handled and never been taught a single command into a pen of sheep (not cattle) and see how obsessed, intense, efficient and intelligent it is at its function. 

is that what you do?


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> not sure how you folks do it. the way we do is simple, throw a pup that has barely been handled and never been taught a single command into a pen of sheep (not cattle) and see how obsessed, intense, efficient and intelligent it is at its function.
> 
> is that what you do?


 
A shearing friend put his young kelpie pup on sheep for the first time and she absolutely oozed everything you would want in a prospective working dog. She came from top lines and boy did it show. I think there were a few people watching that would have loved to have got their hands on that pup LOL. First time on sheep and you could see she was born to it.

Having said that, I do know of several Koolies that didnt fully switch on to sheep till they were over 12 months old and turned in to very good dogs. Mine was one of those. However he didnt run around aimlessly after them, he just wasnt particularly interested and then one day it clicked and all his instincts came bursting forth, but the right instincts were there, I didnt have to teach him to flank or gather.

Some people think just because their dog is a herding breed it must be able to herd and chasing around after sheep in an instinct test must be a sure sign of how good it is. 

I for one would never cheer lead a dog, you shouldnt need to.

I would never get a dog for herding that wasnt form good herding lines with the traits I was looking for. I really would not expect big things from a dog not purpose bred for herding even if it is a herding breed.

If I wasnt looking to herd my dog I wouldnt care as long as it had the function I was looking for in what I wanted that dog for. I know there will always be good herding dogs around so I dont get to angsty anymore if people want to breed some of them for another purpose.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> recently watched some expensive mals - not sure what ped - get tested for herding instinct;
> 
> a bit embarrassing to watch, dogs ran around aimlessly, lots of activity and not much else.
> 
> ...


I think the problem is that often city people have a herding breed, they think it must be able to herd and they take it for an instinct test and think because it chases a few sheep around it must be good, when in actual fact to a true stockman who can pick a good dog with great ease, it sucks. 

It may well be a very good dog in other areas of sport though.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I've instinct tested quite a few of my Malinois, I'd say the majority of them at one point or another. And gone on to work with 3 or 4 of them. Only 3 didn't show any real instinct on sheep, and that was a mother and 2 of her sons. Another littermate though did OK. I've also sold a number of them to people who are using them with their livestock on a daily basis as farm dogs. So the ability is still out there. Maybe not as "finessed" as it might be if they were being bred specifically with herding as the focal point, but it's there and it's usable.

As far as the fanatical breeding for bitesports go, bitesports are just as much in the history of the Belgian Shepherd breed as herding is. By the time the funny looking little farm dogs were actually being made into an official breed, their use in herding was becoming less and less, and their use in police, bite work, etc was becoming more and more. http://www.dantero.com/belg_history.php

I'm all about original purpose with a breed, but I think people need to know what that purpose really was, and with many breeds there was more than one original purpose.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I've instinct tested quite a few of my Malinois, I'd say the majority of them at one point or another. And gone on to work with 3 or 4 of them. Only 3 didn't show any real instinct on sheep, and that was a mother and 2 of her sons. Another littermate though did OK. I've also sold a number of them to people who are using them with their livestock on a daily basis as farm dogs. So the ability is still out there. Maybe not as "finessed" as it might be if they were being bred specifically with herding as the focal point, but it's there and it's usable.
> 
> As far as the fanatical breeding for bitesports go, bitesports are just as much in the history of the Belgian Shepherd breed as herding is. By the time the funny looking little farm dogs were actually being made into an official breed, their use in herding was becoming less and less, and their use in police, bite work, etc was becoming more and more. http://www.dantero.com/belg_history.php
> 
> I'm all about original purpose with a breed, but I think people need to know what that purpose really was, and with many breeds there was more than one original purpose.


so I shouldnt get rid of my dog if it doesnt herd well??? 

Nice research Kadi...I have always thought of these dogs in that way..

All other things aside, have you made breeding decisions based on herding functionality? or is that more of a peripheral interest to you?

If you had to guess, what % of Malinios breeders would you "guess" are basing their programs on excelling in herding?


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

I've had people want herding instinct tests done on my sheep, when I had sheep. They see the dog chasing the sheep all over and w/o real purpose. "See, my dog can herd, now give me some lessons."
Let's see...chasing IS a prey drive, herding is a refined skill. Handler has the dog work for THEM...standing with your thumb in your....isn't training the dog!


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Joby Becker said:


> If you had to guess, what % of Malinios breeders would you "guess" are basing their programs on excelling in herding?


Here in the US it's a very small percent. I'd say less than 5%, probably even smaller. Mainly in the group of breeders who focus more on performance events (obedience, agility, etc) there are some who also focus a lot on herding and I know take that into consideration when doing breedings. I'm not sure what the number would be in Europe, but I wouldn't be surprised to find out it was similar.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

thanks for your input..I know its jut a guess...I did not think it was a large percentage that were focusing on herding.


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

Got someone a couple hours north of me that keeps Terv's for herding duty's.


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> not sure how you folks do it. the way we do is simple, throw a pup that has barely been handled and never been taught a single command into a pen of sheep (not cattle) and see how obsessed, intense, efficient and intelligent it is at its function.
> 
> is that what you do?


Most tests I have seen are done on a line. The handler/tester tries to get the dog around the sheep. Some testers turn the dog loose and try to keep the dog off of the sheep/goats. It can be a very intense experience 

The Kelpies I have seen are turned loose at a young age. But the tester is still in the pen. Just not needing to do too much ;-)

I have had 2 Beauceron. One was bred for Ringsport...very intense with high prey drive, so herding had to be more structured...heavy on obedience. My import male was from a kennel with a long history of breeding for herding. He was a softer dog, but still pretty high prey drive. He was more interested in pleasing me...my female wanted me to sit down and shut up so she could have fun...LOL

I must admit,working my Kelpie has been soooo much easier =D>


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

What advantages would anyone see in doing herding with a SCH or IPO dog?


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Peter, the dogs I've seen instinct tested, I kind of liken it to bringing your young dog or puppy prospect to the protection sport club for the first time so the TD or the decoy/helper can flip a rag or tug on a flirt pole to see if they chase it. I haven't seen too many people claim that their dog can "herd" now just cause it can chase a few sheep around a round pen as I'd hope people wouldn't claim their dog is trained in protection because it chase a tug. Hopefully not anyways... :-\"


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> What advantages would anyone see in doing herding with a SCH or IPO dog?


 
Depending on how the dog was trained, there can be several advantages. Which is why I miss training with a certain Sch III working line male. Remember, the traits and drives are the same and its the herding dog that brought those balanced drives to the table.


T


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Depending on how the dog was trained, there can be several advantages. Which is why I miss training with a certain Sch III working line male. Remember, the traits and drives are the same and its the herding dog that brought those balanced drives to the table.
> 
> 
> T



8-[8-[8-[8-[8-[8-[
It's been a really sucky year and not training/herding has been just one of the many reasons.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> 8-[8-[8-[8-[8-[8-[
> It's been a really sucky year and not training/herding has been just one of the many reasons.


I know. You get a pass but I can still miss you guys. Its so frickin hot right now, we're not getting anything done anyway. Do me a favor and pop me links to Trooper's and Thunder's pedigrees. In light of the SAR pedigree discussion I want to look at them again.


T


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Will do!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

T
E-mail sent!


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## Laney Rein (Feb 9, 2011)

Peter,
I know just what you're saying - as I have watched some youtube videos where people decided to see if their dogs they had been doing schutzhund with had any herding talent so they went to have them tested. From what I saw, they just took the dogs that were 2-3 yo and turned them loose in a large pen with the tester and some sheep. The dogs ran everywhere around the pen, sniffing and peeing on everything, would notice the sheep, run at them, in which the tester would stteer them away with a long pvc pole. The dog would then run back to the owner or continue sniffing the pen. When they finally did engage the sheep it was more predator-like, not herding and the tester had to actually hit them with the pole to keep them from attacking the sheep. The owners felt the dogs had done excellent where as I know I wouldn't let those dogs near my livestock.

Kellie, the best dog we ever owned for herding was our Kelpie. At four months he acted like he had been trained his whole life to work yet it was the first tme he had been on stock. We worked over 150 animals with him as the only dog and he never disappointed.

My mal, appears to want to work the stock I have left, but they are old, so won't allow him much latitude, but he does not try to kill them, and tends to circle round and try to balance and move them to me. I think he has more herding instinct, then the drive needed for bitework.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Laney Rein said:


> Peter,
> 
> Kellie, the best dog we ever owned for herding was our Kelpie. At four months he acted like he had been trained his whole life to work yet it was the first tme he had been on stock. We worked over 150 animals with him as the only dog and he never disappointed.
> .


 
Too me that is what a dog specifically bred from good herding lines should do. You shouldnt have to train what should be instinct ingrained in the dogs genes. You can shape and work with those skills but you shoundnt have to train those skills.

My BC has a beautiful cast, he was born with it, done it since the first time I put him on sheep - how easy is that. He cast out wide around 100 sheep at 7 months old when some of the neighbours flock escaped into my one of my paddocks and had them all back from where they came from by bringing them to me with out an ounce of training. He balanced and flanked by the sheer genetic instinct he was bred for. 

I wont go near anything anymore that wasnt bred by a true stockman who uses his dogs to work sheep and understands what to breed for.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Its always gonna end in the BC-Kelpie, only dogs bred for for stock work, vein. I've worked and trained too many dogs that weren't "bred for stock work" who had/have tons of stock sense. They don''t work like BCs and Kelpies and they are not supposed too. There are descriptions here of bad nerves [displacement behviors, dive in aggression; etc.], not lack of herding INSTINCT. I actually don't encourage people to go to instinct tests. They are not set up for really working with the dog. Find a trainer that is familiar with your breed or type of dog. I'm working with a mal now and will test two more when the heat wave breaks. You can't generalize. Its an individual dog thing and it may take more than one session for that dog to kick into gear.

Terrasita


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Its always gonna end in the BC-Kelpie, only dogs bred for for stock work, vein. I've worked and trained too many dogs that weren't "bred for stock work" who had/have tons of stock sense. They don''t work like BCs and Kelpies and they are not supposed too. There are descriptions here of bad nerves [displacement behviors, dive in aggression; etc.], not lack of herding INSTINCT. I actually don't encourage people to go to instinct tests. They are not set up for really working with the dog. Find a trainer that is familiar with your breed or type of dog. I'm working with a mal now and will test two more when the heat wave breaks. You can't generalize. Its an individual dog thing and it may take more than one session for that dog to kick into gear.
> 
> Terrasita


+1

Just like I wouldn't expect a Malinois, GSD, Rottweiler, etc to work just like a BC or Kelpie, I wouldn't expect them to test just like one either.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

How's the Mal doing? I am likewise getting back into herding when it's not 90 degrees at 9 PM at night. #-o


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Its always gonna end in the BC-Kelpie, only dogs bred for for stock work, vein. I've worked and trained too many dogs that weren't "bred for stock work" who had/have tons of stock sense. They don''t work like BCs and Kelpies and they are not supposed too.


No one said that all breeds, not even Kelpies, should work like a B/C :wink:

There will always be a variety of uses (hopefully) for herding dogs and a variety of people using the dogs. 

People who are training for others, or training others dogs would not have much of a business if they didn't work with a variety of breeds. :mrgreen: BTW...nothing wrong with having that type of business AT ALL

Most farmers/ranchers I know, do not have the time nor the inclination to gamble on finding the "diamond in the rough" . Heck I can't even convince some of my friends/family to use dogs at all. Too many bad experiences with supposed stock dogs. 

One persons preference does not make the others preference automatically "wrong". My herding preference is for the Kelpie and compared to working my Beaucerons is MUCH EASIER...other's may be different...whatever floats their boat, so to speak.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Kellie Wolverton said:


> No one said that all breeds, not even Kelpies, should work like a B/C :wink:
> 
> There will always be a variety of uses (hopefully) for herding dogs and a variety of people using the dogs.
> 
> ...


It doesn't have jack to do with business and never did. My dog training is still a hobby and I try to be available to those people who want to try--especially with the non-eye dogs. When I started, most people I encountered wouldn't touch a non-BC or Kelpie. There's still alot of that around and same ol same ol---gotta get one bred for the job. I've watched the training for the bred for dogs and nope they didn't come out of the womb with all those skills. They were TRAINED and developed like anything else. Some dogs are easier depending on the herding job, trainer skill level and time. That's true even amongst the bred for dogs. I have a love and passion for working herding dogs. I've seen enough bred for trash and some really good dogs not bred for to always keep an open mind and give a dog an opportunity to show what's in him. I can show you a a bunch of variables even within the bred for genetic group and it all comes down to handler and job preferences. The historical jobs, herding cultures and handler preferences were as different as the many herding breeds that were in existence. Those instincts and drives are still in the dogs. You don't judge dogs by 2 minute instinct tests if you really want to see what they are about. You also have to really look at the instinct test area and and the tester. Next, did they use appropriate livestock. Anything not a bred for BC or Kelpie is considered a diamond in the rough. There will be tons of herding discussions started and the only thing offered is ohhhhhhh, its not a kelpie or second to that, a BC. For some its not a matter of what's easier. Some dogs might not be easier for my personality because quite frankly, they would get on my nerves. I don't mind if my type of dog takes extra time. Within the group of dogs that I training there are three that are several generations of Scottish breeding. How do I distinguish them---they move off pressure and they have eye in degrees. They work the same concepts as the other dogs--flanks, stop, walk-up, recall, rate, etc. Because of the move off pressure you can progress them faster with outwork. 

Malinois are tough because of the emphasis on prey reactivity and load/explode. They similar to aussies, have issues with hitting that contact bubble and how they react but that's what training and development is for. As long as folks aren't in a hurry, you can work with most. There are a lot of working dog culls because of personality conflicts between dog and handler and what you don't want to have to spend time on. That's personal. 

You can't look at dogs at an instinct test and sayyyyy, ohhh what's HAPPENED TO THE BREED. Who said those dogs are breed representative? When a dog comes into my pen, its not really helpful if I say hhhhhmmmm, its not a GSD [my herding preference]. Rarely, but I might sayyyy, uhhhhhh, this one is not going to be able to cut it. When its happened is not an instinct issue. Its nerves and confidence. With working line dogs, you may eliminate based on over the top spun up prey drive. I try to stay way from being breed condescending and statements like "dumb assed city folks." I still support people wanting to learn about herding with getting involved and breeders trying to preserve it even if all we have is trialing.

Terrasita


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

so we can assume now that....

someone looking at a Mali at a basic herding test one time, cannot really assess the quality of the Mal as a good Mali or not, based on its performance in the test? and cannot say if they got a good dog or not when they made the purchase?


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

I guess we have been down this road before LOL. Farmers round here just do what makes sense for running thousands of sheep. Kelpies, BCs and Koolies are proven sheepdogs and getting one from proven working lines with the traits you like reduces the risk and also the time needed for training. Most farmers dont have the time or inclination to do herding training, instinct tests whatever. If the dog doesnt work out without too much fuss it is either returned to the breeder or shot.

They need light, fast agile dogs that will back sheep in the yards, drive sheep and gather sheep. A ggod dog can save thousands of dollars in labour and they will pay big money for dogs from proven working lines.

I know there are other breeds that can herd but realistically out here nothing beats a good kelpie, BC or Koolie, or mix therof from good working lines, simple as that. Nothing will convince me otherwise LOL. When you move to cattle ACDS cam come into the mix, but there are BCs and Koolies purpose bred for cattle, just depends on the type of cattel.

It has nothing to with being breed condescending for me it is just the facts as I see it. City folk and their dogs - it is good for them to learn and there are venues for this to enjoy their dogs but they often work in a very unreal environment and get upset when you dont want them to come and visit so they can try their dogs that you know just from watching, you dont want working anywhere near your own sheep.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I think if you got a really nice Mal, you'd get the speed, smaller size, and "tunability" of the BCs too, but with the extra oomph of some of the cattle dogs. I wouldn't know. My Mal is_ pretty_ good at a lot of things, but not_ really_ good at anything. Including herding. :-\" :lol:


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I think if you got a really nice Mal, you'd get the speed, smaller size, and "tunability" of the BCs too, but with the extra oomph of some of the cattle dogs. I wouldn't know. My Mal is_ pretty_ good at a lot of things, but not_ really_ good at anything. Including herding. :-\" :lol:


I really like Mals, there is a beautiful mal that does agility and she is light, fast and agile. But I would have to say that I had never seen a Mal before doing agility.

The Australian stockman has developed several breeds like the Koolie, Kelpie and ACD over many years and they are purpose bred for our conditions and have the infusion of a number of older herding breeds in their origins. I would think if the Mal had been suitable it would have been used by the stockmen of old. I have never in all my years of working onfarms and with farmers seen a Mal used the situations I am talking about.

When I watch some of those kelpies etc working in punishing conditions in the yards and paddocks you just know they are purpose bred for the situation and you couldnt get a better dog to fill that purpose. Those kelpies run over the top of sheep and also between the legs and underneath the bellies of thousands of sheep loading in yards. They take your breath away to watch. They have plenty of oomph LOL when it comes to ill mannered sheep.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> so we can assume now that....
> 
> someone looking at a Mali at a basic herding test one time, cannot really assess the quality of the Mal as a good Mali or not, based on its performance in the test? and cannot say if they got a good dog or not when they made the purchase?


No, not really when you consider your usual two minute instinct test. Lets say the dog turned on and worked the stock nicely and you wanna jump, shout and scream. You sign him up for lessons and by lesson 3 he is going for the throat. WTF happened? Well, one of the things we see is that once the dog is familiar with what's going on, he may really amp. Its a long road from 2 minutes in the round pen to a functional chore dog or trial dog. Things can change along the way. Same thing with a dog that shows you zilch the first exposure. Take him back a second time and bingo, he goes to work. Then there is the dog that goes to work in the instinct test setting and even in the beginning with the walkabouts. You start to implement controls, and he can't take the pressure of the obedience part and shuts down. Or you find that he says to hell with the obedience, I work alone. This is all with testing an adult dog and knowing nothing else other than what occurred in that pen that day for those two minutes. A lot of times you can get a read on the dog's nerves and you can say to the person, we'll have to see how he handles training. Its like anything else, genetics only takes you so far. Screwed up training can screw up the dog. A lot of herding trainers are one trick ponies. Ask the majority of them how to develop a dog without the ol push off body pressure method and they go WTF. Then ask them what do you do with a dog that you can't get to move off body pressure. They'd probably tell you to shoot it. You take that type of dog to an instinct test and put all that pressure on him, you've frustrated him and put him into fight. He's going to bite something. Or, you put him into flight and ultimately avoidance. Usually on the avoidance dog, they tell you to get another dog or here I have a started dog I can sell ya. If they can't body pressure it, they tell you its not a herding dog, its a Schutzhund dog.

So far with testing a puppy and particularly any that I whelped/raised, strong environmental + people nerves + instinct= trainable stock dog. I still say its lack of nerve strength that causes non eye dogs to flunk training, not instinct. Some of the most people and environmentally nervy dogs I've seen have been working line border collies. However, their eye and herding as traits are separate from other confidence traits, especially the strong eye ones. But that said, I saw a $1000 a day USBCHA trainer clinician run to working line BC puppies [6 months] out of the pen because they couldn't take her pressure. All she said was, Next as she took a swig of water. 

T


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Interesting, as I'm sure they certainly could do it. If they can work out in Iraq and Afghanistan, I'm pretty sure they can work in Australia as well. Are Mals even very common in Oz or New Zealand? 

A good Mal can do just about anything pretty well, even better than some BCs (I do know of some BCs that do Schutzhund, but I'd have to say they're in the vast, vast minority...). My dog will always try just about anything I ask. He's not the top dog at anything that we train at regularly (protection sport, dock diving, and herding being our top 3), but he can be reasonably competitive at all three. While I can appreciate being successful at extreme specialization, I also really appreciate versatility even more.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Interesting, as I'm sure they certainly could do it. If they can work out in Iraq and Afghanistan, I'm pretty sure they can work in Australia as well. Are Mals even very common in Oz or New Zealand?
> 
> A good Mal can do just about anything pretty well, even better than some BCs (I do know of some BCs that do Schutzhund, but I'd have to say they're in the vast, vast minority...). My dog will always try just about anything I ask. He's not the top dog at anything that we train at regularly (protection sport, dock diving, and herding being our top 3), but he can be reasonably competitive at all three. While I can appreciate being successful at extreme specialization, I also really appreciate versatility even more.


I cant imagine a BC or kelpie doing Schutzhund LOL. I dont think it would be my first choice LOL I might though with my ACD.

I compete with one of my bigger BCs against the light fast Mal in agility and there is no question his times are faster. He is a speed freak at agility. BCs also tend to excel in obedience here although there are some excellent GSDS and other breeds right up the top with them.

To be honest I dont think a Mal would be a better dog than the kelpie out here, I couldnt see them working the same way in the yards that a good kelpie does. Out in the paddocks a good casting dog is essential. I dont know if Mals are bred to cast or not. A good dog will cast wide and keep casting again and again untill all the sheep have been collected, this often has to be done out of sight of the handler. The dog has to born with these insticts. You always know the dogs that cant cast like that cos the farmer will deliver them to the sheep on the back of his bike. It is something you can train when you are in control but out of sight and under pressure the dog reverts.

I dont know how similar the situation of sheep is in Iraq to here. I know we have visiting Iraqis looking at our agriculture systems but theres seems very different from ours. Would be interesting to see.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> So far with testing a puppy and particularly any that I whelped/raised, strong environmental + people nerves + instinct= trainable stock dog. I still say its lack of nerve strength that causes non eye dogs to flunk training, not instinct. Some of the most people and environmentally nervy dogs I've seen have been working line border collies. However, their eye and herding as traits are separate from other confidence traits, especially the strong eye ones. But that said, I saw a $1000 a day USBCHA trainer clinician run to working line BC puppies [6 months] out of the pen because they couldn't take her pressure. All she said was, Next as she took a swig of water.
> 
> T


The old timers here say that they would never even consider breeding a dog that was nervy, no matter how good its other traits are. They want a calm confident pup, right from the word go. They say that the way dogs have been bred these days a lot of people probably have never worked with a really really good dog and therefore dont have a measure of calibration. They dont get hung up on eye either, especially the wrong type of eye that can often be a sign of lack of strength and nerviness. that is often misinterpreted by less experienced people. To me a $1000 a day trainer means nothing. I would go ask the true stockmen their opiion and look at the dogs they are breeding and working and have dedicated their lives to.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Sara Waters said:


> I cant imagine a BC or kelpie doing Schutzhund LOL. I dont think it would be my first choice LOL I might though with my ACD.
> 
> I compete with one of my bigger BCs against the light fast Mal in agility and there is no question his times are faster. He is a speed freak at agility. BCs also tend to excel in obedience here although there are some excellent GSDS and other breeds right up the top with them.
> 
> ...


 
Sara,

There are some trained casts and then there are the innate casts. I've worked two dogs of my own that did just as you described--a GSD and a pembroke welsh corgi. While I trained a lot in those two dogs, I didn't train that. A situation occurred and they just did it---instinct. Same thing with a blind cast. Cast was a selected for trait in many lines of working BCs and kelpies as you describe. That was not a selected for trait for other breeds which had different jobs. I will say that too much of the training over here is in small pen. I didn't see the natural cast in any of my dogs until I got them out in a pasture. Just think if you started a lot of the natural cast BCs in a 30-60 foot round pen. They're not bred for being inside of the bubble and a lot of times they will freak unless this side is trained/developed. For this reason, I no longer want to train dogs in small pens. Get them out in the open as soon as possible and I don't care if its with ducks or geese so they can learn to read the pressure point and the cast. Unfortunately for a lot of herders, the #1 trait they are looking for is cast and there were only two breeds developed for cast that I can think of. If that's your high priority trait then yes, you would not use another breed. Other breeds will back a sheep or no how to go underneath to get to the nose of the lead sheep without getting squashed [corgis]. If I told a GSD to back sheep--he would and he'd have the agility to do it. How do you distinguish the dogs bred for cattle from the dogs bred for sheep in terms of working traits?

There are other herding traits besides cast or the almighty outrun. The mal I work, like the Cardigan are pressure sensitive. They're also handler sensitive. That's a tough combination to train. They both have instinct. For Joby, both showed in the instinct test that they are pressure and handler sensitive. Does that rule them out for training. For some training techniques--definitely. You could very easily push both into avoidance. Has nothing to do with instinct. However, they are both very biddable dogs and I think they have reasonably good stock confidence as along as the handler doesn't indicate they aren't allowed to control the stock.


T


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Sara Waters said:


> I really like Mals, there is a beautiful mal that does agility and she is light, fast and agile. But I would have to say that I had never seen a Mal before doing agility.


There are actually a lot of Malinois, and all varieties of Belgians, competing at the top levels in agility, both nationally and internationally.



> The Australian stockman has developed several breeds like the Koolie, Kelpie and ACD over many years and they are purpose bred for our conditions and have the infusion of a number of older herding breeds in their origins. I would think if the Mal had been suitable it would have been used by the stockmen of old.


If they were purpose bred for herding for the number of generations the breeds mentioned were, and they job those dogs were bred for, I expect they would do the job just as well. But they were never purpose bred for the type of environment you are discribing, herding in France/Belgium back when the Belgians were purpose bred for it, was not the same as herding on the big stations in Australia. Also when those old timers were developing their dogs, I seriously doubt there were any Malinois in Australia, they are a much more recent import, so it's not a case of suitability, but of availability. I'm not saying they would have used the Malinois if they had access to them, but I don't think we can say they wouldn't either, not considering some of the breeds that went into their crosses.



> I have never in all my years of working onfarms and with farmers seen a Mal used the situations I am talking about.


I haven't seen it in the numbers you are giving, but other than that I have seen Malinois used in exactly the situation you are describing. But more like 100 sheep than 1000s. The owner was a rancher though, so might have run larger numbers, I just saw the photos/videos of the dogs working, and there were around 100 or so in them. Running across backs, under sheep, pushing them through chutes, etc etc.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Sara Waters said:


> The old timers here say that they would never even consider breeding a dog that was nervy, no matter how good its other traits are. They want a calm confident pup, right from the word go. They say that the way dogs have been bred these days a lot of people probably have never worked with a really really good dog and therefore dont have a measure of calibration. They dont get hung up on eye either, especially the wrong type of eye that can often be a sign of lack of strength and nerviness. that is often misinterpreted by less experienced people. To me a $1000 a day trainer means nothing. I would go ask the true stockmen their opiion and look at the dogs they are breeding and working and have dedicated their lives to.


This is what I mean by the difference in herding traditions/cultures and jobs. The Scottish trainers would respond completely different than what you describe above and what's en vogue changes. That $1000 a day trainer is considered a true stockman. Now the stockmen around here that speak differently are the cattle stockmen.

T


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Now the stockmen around here that speak differently are the cattle stockmen.
> 
> T


Can you explain what you mean by this? Do you mean they use different jargon? or that they would respond differently to dogs working sytle/eye etc.?


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Kellie Wolverton said:


> Can you explain what you mean by this? Do you mean they use different jargon? or that they would respond differently to dogs working sytle/eye etc.?


They respond differently on such subjects as eye, cast, bite/grip, what we call nerve strength, etc. One had a lot to say about the Suffolk ram that put him in the hospital a couple of weeks. On the American side, you do have to look at breeds that were bred for cattle vs. those bred for sheep and then even what type of sheep. One thing a Scottish guy said in an interview was that he didn't understand this obsession for one dog for ALL jobs. Each morning he hopped in the ATV with a Beardie and a Collie--each with his own strengths that corresponded to the jobs he designated for them. 

T


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> They respond differently on such subjects as eye, cast, bite/grip, what we call nerve strength, etc. One had a lot to say about the Suffolk ram that put him in the hospital a couple of weeks. On the American side, you do have to look at breeds that were bred for cattle vs. those bred for sheep and then even what type of sheep. One thing a Scottish guy said in an interview was that he didn't understand this obsession for one dog for ALL jobs. Each morning he hopped in the ATV with a Beardie and a Collie--each with his own strengths that corresponded to the jobs he designated for them.
> 
> T


thanks for the response


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Sara Waters said:


> I cant imagine a BC or kelpie doing Schutzhund LOL. I dont think it would be my first choice LOL I might though with my ACD.
> 
> I compete with one of my bigger BCs against the light fast Mal in agility and there is no question his times are faster. He is a speed freak at agility. BCs also tend to excel in obedience here although there are some excellent GSDS and other breeds right up the top with them.
> 
> To be honest I dont think a Mal would be a better dog than the kelpie out here, I couldnt see them working the same way in the yards that a good kelpie does. Out in the paddocks a good casting dog is essential. I dont know if Mals are bred to cast or not. A good dog will cast wide and keep casting again and again untill all the sheep have been collected, this often has to be done out of sight of the handler. The dog has to born with these insticts. You always know the dogs that cant cast like that cos the farmer will deliver them to the sheep on the back of his bike. It is something you can train when you are in control but out of sight and under pressure the dog reverts.


I say this as a herding novice at best, but my gut feeling tells me a good Mal could handle it. Speaking with Kadi and other Malinois folks that herd, they are probably best for large groups of stock. I have a feeling my male in particular will do better in a larger flock than 3-5 sheep in an AKC trial setting. There are not many in the States who run huge flocks of sheep either as we produce much, much more beef and much less lamb. He may be even better on cattle as he seems a bit more wanting to drive than fetch, though he may be himself killed, so who knows...



> I dont know how similar the situation of sheep is in Iraq to here. I know we have visiting Iraqis looking at our agriculture systems but theres seems very different from ours. Would be interesting to see.


I mean the environmental conditions that the military working dogs in Iraq have to deal with. I honestly have no idea what the farming Iraqis use to herd.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> There are actually a lot of Malinois, and all varieties of Belgians, competing at the top levels in agility, both nationally and internationally.
> 
> If they were purpose bred for herding for the number of generations the breeds mentioned were, and they job those dogs were bred for, I expect they would do the job just as well. But they were never purpose bred for the type of environment you are discribing, herding in France/Belgium back when the Belgians were purpose bred for it, was not the same as herding on the big stations in Australia. Also when those old timers were developing their dogs, I seriously doubt there were any Malinois in Australia, they are a much more recent import, so it's not a case of suitability, but of availability. I'm not saying they would have used the Malinois if they had access to them, but I don't think we can say they wouldn't either, not considering some of the breeds that went into their crosses.
> 
> I haven't seen it in the numbers you are giving, but other than that I have seen Malinois used in exactly the situation you are describing. But more like 100 sheep than 1000s. The owner was a rancher though, so might have run larger numbers, I just saw the photos/videos of the dogs working, and there were around 100 or so in them. Running across backs, under sheep, pushing them through chutes, etc etc.


Kadi, I meant that I had never seen a Mal untill I started agility. Yes they are fantastic agility dogs from the few I have seen and also tend to be imported dogs. The local Mals where I live tend to be showline mals and are a different kettle of fish altoghether. Working BCs tend to be the top agility dogs here.

I also agree with the rest of your post. My knowledge of Mals is minimal. I guess with such a good herding dogs in the kelpie, why try and interfere with what is not broke LOL. Yes some of these dogs will work on farms with 25,000 sheep or more often in scorching and tough conditions and they do it to perfection. They were purpose bred for it. They also tend not to get foot sore working day after day in very dry rocky conditions with prickles.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> One thing a Scottish guy said in an interview was that he didn't understand this obsession for one dog for ALL jobs. Each morning he hopped in the ATV with a Beardie and a Collie--each with his own strengths that corresponded to the jobs he designated for them.
> 
> T


Yes there are differences in culture! Some of our most respected stockmen cant abide by this sentiment. The look for and breed true utility dogs. One that is as good in the yards as they are in the paddock, to them this is the mark of a truly top dog. They certainly do exist, I have witnessed such dogs and they are gold. They are the dogs you always fall back on to handle any sutuation.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Sara,
> 
> There are some trained casts and then there are the innate casts. I've worked two dogs of my own that did just as you described--a GSD and a pembroke welsh corgi. While I trained a lot in those two dogs, I didn't train that. A situation occurred and they just did it---instinct. Same thing with a blind cast. Cast was a selected for trait in many lines of working BCs and kelpies as you describe. That was not a selected for trait for other breeds which had different jobs. I will say that too much of the training over here is in small pen. I didn't see the natural cast in any of my dogs until I got them out in a pasture. Just think if you started a lot of the natural cast BCs in a 30-60 foot round pen. They're not bred for being inside of the bubble and a lot of times they will freak unless this side is trained/developed. For this reason, I no longer want to train dogs in small pens. Get them out in the open as soon as possible and I don't care if its with ducks or geese so they can learn to read the pressure point and the cast. Unfortunately for a lot of herders, the #1 trait they are looking for is cast and there were only two breeds developed for cast that I can think of. If that's your high priority trait then yes, you would not use another breed. Other breeds will back a sheep or no how to go underneath to get to the nose of the lead sheep without getting squashed [corgis]. If I told a GSD to back sheep--he would and he'd have the agility to do it. How do you distinguish the dogs bred for cattle from the dogs bred for sheep in terms of working traits?
> 
> ...


The value of the innate cast is very high given the sheer size of the paddocks. It is not the number one trait at the exclusion of other equally important traits but it is considered to be the hallmark of a usefull dog.

I dont think the small pen is used much by most farmers, the youngsters start working often with more experienced dogs out in the padocks in many cases.

I expect many dogs will go under sheep but we are talking thousands moving through the pens, very tigtly packed. The dogs has to be super agile with good timing and instincts or it would most certainly be crushed. They also jump from pen to pen and up very high ramps and they will keep going all day. Corgis would most certainly not be suitable. GSDS questionable. Look I may be wrong but those commercial sheep yards are full on.

I guess many farmers are not interested in anything that takes to much time and effort to train. They will pay good money for started dogs that come from proven lines. You see certain lines selling at auction for upward of $6000 and those dogs are expected to be good, reputations ride on it it I would guess. Others will command much less money.

T - cattle are not my forte as it is a long time since I had anything to do with them.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Sara Waters said:


> Yes there are differences in culture! Some of our most respected stockmen cant abide by this sentiment. The look for and breed true utility dogs. One that is as good in the yards as they are in the paddock, to them this is the mark of a truly top dog. They certainly do exist, I have witnessed such dogs and they are gold. They are the dogs you always fall back on to handle any sutuation.


Well, you have to look at the job--huntaway vs. cast. Not quite the same as a dog that will cast out and work in close contact work. You believe in your culture, stockmen and Kelpie/BC preference. I believe in recognizing other herding cultures/traditions and the dogs they bred for their type of work. There are some common traits amongst all the breeds and I don't think any one breed or culture has god-like reign over the others. There are things I've learned that were more of the Australian tradition and then there are things from the Scottish and American.

T


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Well, you have to look at the job--huntaway vs. cast. Not quite the same as a dog that will cast out and work in close contact work. You believe in your culture, stockmen and Kelpie/BC preference. I believe in recognizing other herding cultures/traditions and the dogs they bred for their type of work. There are some common traits amongst all the breeds and I don't think any one breed or culture has god-like reign over the others. There are things I've learned that were more of the Australian tradition and then there are things from the Scottish and American.
> 
> T


Yes there are many other traditions and cultures, but in the end you go with what is going to be most suitable for you. My favourite dogs are the ACDS and they were fantastic on station cattle when I was working there many years ago, they just dont always transfer so well to sheep, or should I say there are better options for sheep. It is also fairly common to blend BC with ACD with regards to some types of cattle.

Fact is in terms of working sheep in Australia the BC/Kelpie/Koolie type do reign supreme in our culture and I believe for very good reason. The kelpies and and Koolies were purpose bred and the BC has also been bred to Australian conditions and there would be kelpie flowing in some of those veins no doubt.

I have never considered that that constitutes a god like reign over other cultures. Never really given it much thought, my only real interest is in what works here. If a corgi or bearded or GSD works better in other situations in other countries, or people want to have a different dog for every task that is their choice and based on what works best for them.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

:-s


Kellie Wolverton said:


> Most tests I have seen are done on a line. The handler/tester tries to get the dog around the sheep. Some testers turn the dog loose and try to keep the dog off of the sheep/goats. It can be a very intense experience
> 
> The Kelpies I have seen are turned loose at a young age. But the tester is still in the pen. Just not needing to do too much ;-)
> 
> ...


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

i certainly underestimated the power of selective breeding and how downright "tunable" it is.


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> :-s



lol :razz::razz::razz::razz::razz::razz::razz:


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