# Grand Flex for Puppies?



## Art Lavely (Apr 14, 2007)

Being around horses when I was younger I saw the benefits of this product and I am currently using it on my 4 year old bitch with questionable hips. She is not a working dog but I want her to have no pain and just started using this product on her with MSM. 

-I could see a difference with her after one week and others have raved about it even with dogs that have Lymes Disease. 

I have a 16 week old puppy and he seems fine but too early to tell about hips, elbows, anything like that of course.

Has anyone used this product on puppies and is it safe to do so?

By the way, any good Tack Shop carries this product for less than I have seen on the internet. I am amazed at all the good Horse care products that can be used for Dogs with no problem. The quality of Horse Products, seems superior to canine supplements in my opinion.......


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

That's glucosamine and yucca?

I think from everything I have read (well, almost everything) and from my own experience with senior dogs that the glucosamine-family supplements are effective against OA changes.

I don't know of any reason to believe that they can prevent anything, though.

This is strictly my opinion, based on the way they work to help repair/rebuild cartilage that has been damaged. I can't see how they can give support to undamaged connective tissue.

Most of the companies selling the glucosamine-family supplements do maintain that they are prevention agents for healthy puppies, so you'll definitely hear different opinions.

So ..... an unhelpful answer for ya!

P.S. If you are wondering whether your pup should be getting fish oil plus vitamin E, the answer from me is a huge yes. :>) That would be the form of joint support I'd choose for a healthy young dog.

No matter what you're feeding, there really is no modern diet (unless the dog is taking down his own grass-fed prey out on the tundra, or maybe fishing in Alaska) that supplies the long-chain Omega 3 EFAs that dogs evolved eating.

All JMO.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> No matter what you're feeding, there really is no modern diet (unless the dog is taking down his own grass-fed prey out on the tundra, or maybe fishing in Alaska) that supplies the long-chain Omega 3 EFAs that dogs evolved eating.
> 
> All JMO.


Not trying to totally change the subject here, but is this true even if you're able to get a regular supply of wild game meat (like caribou for instance)?

I've been feeding my dogs caribou lately (from a hunter friend's freezer) and don't want to over-do it on the Omega 3s (if that's possible) by giving them their usual supplemental salmon oil and Vit E.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

That's a great question, and the answer from my point of view is that yes, you are giving long-chain Omega 3s stored in the fat of grass-fed animals, and no, it's extremely unlikely that you will overdo the Omega 3s.

Here's why:

Nutritional anthropology tells us that dogs (and humans) spent most of their evolution eating about 1 to 1, Omega 6 and Omega 3 EFAs. (For this subject, Omega 9s can be ignored.)

Various factors in recent times have changed that ratio profoundly. One factor for both species is reliance on the meat from grain-fed slaughter animals. One for dogs is that they generally no longer consume brains, eyeballs, etc. One for both is that the fish supply is now tainted and also becoming unsustainable (and that farmed fish in general have a completely different fat makeup). One for both is that poultry is very rich in Omega 6s.

The list is long.

A pound of caribou has a fatty acid breakdown of
Total Omega-3 fatty acids	454	mg 
Total Omega-6 fatty acids	1043 mg

So if I were feeding all caribou and like meats, I'd probably cut the fish oil supplement in half.

If caribou was only part of a diet that was rich in Omega 6s (like poultry), I wouldn't change the fish oil supplement dose.

All JMO.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

For contrast, here's a chicken backs ratio (a pound):

Total Omega-3 fatty acids	201	mg 
Total Omega-6 fatty acids	3293 mg


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> So if I were feeding all caribou and like meats, I'd probably cut the fish oil supplement in half.
> 
> If caribou was only part of a diet that was rich in Omega 6s (like poultry), I wouldn't change the fish oil supplement dose.
> 
> All JMO.


Connie - you're the best! Thanks for all your great information.

I don't think I'll change the dose since I'm not feeding strictly caribou.

Still looking for a good source of brains and eyeballs...might have to resort to feeding whole prey soon. Not sure I can convince my better half to allow me to raise rabbits for that purpose...


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

My own take on feeding brains and eyeball and like tissue is similar to yours: I don't wanna, unless I raise the meat myself.

I understand the arguments about the non-transferability of prion diseases like mad cow to dogs, but I think the jury is still out on other neurological tissue diseases. (Not a subject I've researched a lot, so that's nothing but opinion.)

Also, the reliability of the presence and amounts of long-chain Omega 3s in body oil from wild fish trumps any other source I know of.

True that the fish oil either has to be distilled and tested or from a low-mercury fish (or both) in order for the benefits not to be outweighed by mercury residue, but safe fish oil is readily available.


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## Art Lavely (Apr 14, 2007)

Well, I will say that I learned a lot from my last dog on what NOT to feed for Good Health and healthy Joints. Of course, it's the diet that the mainstream advocates and my last dog grew SO FAST as a puppy it was incredible. She also did too much running around as a puppy. I learned that mainstream commerical kibble (Iams, Puek-anuba) is not a good thing if you want good probability of healthy joints.

Here is what I am feeding my puppy and you can tell me if I can Improve this:

-I feed mostly Ground beef, Ox Tails, Beef Hearts and Meat Scraps @ 5% of Body Weight. I also give him a raw marrow bone every night so he wont chew my ankles off when I am watching the Sopranos. I re-evaluate this number every month when I weigh him. I tried 10% but it was too much. He is 40#'s @ 16 weeks so I now feed him 2 pounds per day split into an AM and a PM Feeding. I feed him more if he is hungry of course! 

1 tsp of Cold Pressed Flax Oil
1 tsp of Alaskan Salmon Oil 
1 tsp of Olive Oil
200 IU Vitamin E
2000 Milligrams of Ester-C
1 Raw Organic Brown Egg WITH the Shell
1 Spoon of Organic Plain Yogurt

He is growing at a very moderate rate and is as healthy as a puppy could be. He has never been sick and he has also never seen any kibble in his life. With Grim ZPS in my Pup's Pedigree, I have to pray for good hips!! :-k


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Hey he's the same weight as Cujo was at 4 months  He was 37lbs.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Connie would be a more reliable source on this, but I would be feeding chicken instead of the oxtails and recreational bones and the Ester-C in that amount might be too much for a pup, maybe for a dog that has some problems already.

Unless Grim is your pups father or grandfather which is unlikely, I wouldn't be concerned too much about the hips.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

LOL, Gerry, I was typing almost exactly what you said when I was timed out. I had to log back in. Chicken backs for the RMB part...... you can't go wrong, IMO, because of the cartilage-y bones, the good ratio of bone-to-meat, and the extremely low cost.

I agree about the Ester C too.



Art Lavely said:


> Well, I will say that I learned a lot from my last dog on what NOT to feed for Good Health and healthy Joints. Of course, it's the diet that the mainstream advocates and my last dog grew SO FAST as a puppy it was incredible. She also did too much running around as a puppy. I learned that mainstream commerical kibble (Iams, Puek-anuba) is not a good thing if you want good probability of healthy joints.
> 
> Here is what I am feeding my puppy and you can tell me if I can Improve this:
> 
> ...


Some dogs are allergic to flax, but otherwise I think it's a good food (either as ground seeds or as oil).

Are there enough RMBs? It's hard to tell.

The first ingredient being ground beef is what makes me ask.

Is it just the first thing you listed, or is it the major ingredient?

If it's the major ingredient, then it might be significantly off the ratio of calcium to phosphorous that you'd find in a wild prey diet.

The other thing I'd say is that heart is really a muscle meat, IMO, although not everyone agrees. I'd add a little liver or kidneys, I think (maybe 5% of the total diet).

These comments sound number-y, I know, but really the idea is just to replicate what the canid has evolved eating, which I think is mainly whole small prey (including stomach) and most of large prey (except the first stomach of big ruminants) and a little produce, and to make up for the lack of long-chain Omega 3s in modern diets by giving fish oil and E.

I would include a small amount of appropriate produce. (Not a big item, but one I don't want to withhold when the animal on his own would priobably eat it in one way or another.)

Timber wolves (gray wolves) eat small amounts of ripe berries and young greens. I know there is a ton of argument over this issue, but not for me any more since the U.C. Yellowstone Gray Wolf Project (I keep saying Yosemite, but it's Yellowstone and I'm brain-dead). 

The project was a study of how reintroducing gray wolves into the ecosystem impacted other species, but for me it cleared up a lot of stuff about what they actually choose to eat when prey is plentiful and they are unaffected by human intervention. They do eat small amounts of produce, both partly-digested in some of their prey and growing in the area.

But I digress. :lol:


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## Art Lavely (Apr 14, 2007)

I am not all that worried about Grim and hip production but I can't overlook it either. -Not that I can do much about it anyway. I just want to do everything I can so that I did my part and whatever happens, happens.

He just graduated to 2000 Milligrams this week, before it was 1000. If he has some loose stools as a result, I will bring it back down. 

Ground Beef is the main staple of his diet with the organ meat thrown in from time to time and or Oxtails. 

I agree with Connie, I am not going to change much with Grand Flex unless I know already that I have a problem which I dont.

I will continue to give it to my female though........Good Results and a Solid Product that is given to million dollar race horses. -Good enough for me!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Art Lavely said:


> I learned that mainstream commerical kibble (Iams, Puek-anuba) is not a good thing if you want good probability of healthy joints.


Yes, those are two of the worst. JMO.

Purina, Hills, Eukanuba, Science Diet --- no excuse for them.


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## Art Lavely (Apr 14, 2007)

Almost forgot. I also feed him BlueBerries on a pretty regular basis and some BlackBerries. -Not the Phone type either........

He loves Berries.

I have to say that I am not a huge fan of handling chicken as I became very sick from salmonella and handling it. I like feeding beef, it is true. Am I really losing out not feeding all the chicken?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Art Lavely said:


> Almost forgot. I also feed him BlueBerries on a pretty regular basis and some BlackBerries. -Not the Phone type either........
> 
> He loves Berries.
> 
> I have to say that I am not a huge fan of handling chicken as I became very sick from salmonella and handling it. I like feeding beef, it is true. Am I really losing out not feeding all the chicken?



No, not at all, as long as you are feeding enough bones.

It's hard to manage that from a grocery store without either poultry or rabbit. At least, that's my experience.

But certainly it can be done.

How much oxtail v. ground beef is he actually getting?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Art Lavely said:


> Almost forgot. I also feed him BlueBerries on a pretty regular basis and some BlackBerries. -Not the Phone type either........
> 
> He loves Berries.
> 
> I have to say that I am not a huge fan of handling chicken as I became very sick from salmonella and handling it. I like feeding beef, it is true. Am I really losing out not feeding all the chicken?


Blueberries are a great addition, IMO.


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## Art Lavely (Apr 14, 2007)

He is getting 80% Ground Beef and about 20% Ox Tails. Also a Huge Raw Marrow/Soup Bone that he devours all of the marrow out of every night. 

I hate handling chicken it is Nasty! That is just me and my past experience getting sick from it, but ground beef is just as bad I know! 

I can go to Sam's get a 20 Pound Sleeve Of Ground Beef and a Pack of Ox Tails, add the supplements and Stand Back........and keep my ankles safe for 2 minutes. LOL


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Art Lavely said:


> He is getting 80% Ground Beef and about 20% Ox Tails. Also a Huge Raw Marrow/Soup Bone that he devours all of the marrow out of every night.
> 
> I hate handling chicken it is Nasty! That is just me and my past experience getting sick from it, but ground beef is just as bad I know!
> 
> I can go to Sam's get a 20 Pound Sleeve Of Ground Beef and a Pack of Ox Tails, add the supplements and Stand Back........and keep my ankles safe for 2 minutes. LOL


That's not enough bones. Marrow isn't the same thing. http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=3314543

I will look up the calcium-phosphorous ratio of oxtail. I am virtually certain that 80% ground beef and 20% oxtail is way off.

Easily fixed, if so.

Back soon.

P.S. You will be able to give your ankles an even longer break.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Chicken is maybe the cleanest raw food I handle, compared to tripe and offal anyway. I always clean bowls and hands/counters etc with bleach after feeding like I do when preparing any raw meat for myself (for cooking)

If my wife ever saw this picture, I'd be like the guy in the golf ball joke.

http://i12.tinypic.com/339lr3l.jpg


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

OK, Art, I looked up oxtails online, and found that they are similar to chicken necks and backs for calcium/phosphorous.

So the diet of 80% ground beef and 20% oxtail is almost the opposite of what you want.

Easily remedied.

I'll PM you with sample meals (very simple and easy; very inexpensive) in which you can substitute your oxtails for the poultry backs and necks, and use your ground beef in the places where it says "muscle meat."

I'll do this later this evening.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Connie,

I make oxtail soup for myself, these bones are like rocks..raw or cooked.

This is the tail bones of a cow...similar to a whales vertebrae.

Is this really something a dog can digest and get something from it..or is it like eating celery..takes more out of you than what it puts in ??

I'm really just curious here.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Connie,
> 
> I make oxtail soup for myself, these bones are like rocks..raw or cooked.
> 
> ...


Well, I really like the NJ Boxers raw site, and I checked them. They equated oxtails to backs and necks (as RMBs).

I will check further. I had never seen them, so I didn't know they were rock-hard. I was picturing flexible, like poultry necks.

Thanks!

Back later with info.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

OK, Gerry, you are correct. Oxtail is fine for occasional RMB use, but not for the basis of a pup's raw diet. The bones are too hard and too dense for some dogs and most puppies to get enough calcium from as a regular thing. 

Art, you probably know that a raw diet has only one really crucial ratio, and that's the calcium-phosphorous ratio (or the bone-to-meat ratio). That is, a dog cannot grow or maintain the skeletal system without consuming the bones that meat "comes with."

This isn't something we would even have to consider, if we handed the whole prey to the dog. Bones, meat, and fat are there..... with the organs..... exactly as the dog needs them. Obviously. :-D

But if we break the prey apart and withhold major components, the dog is not getting the very basic "balance" he has to have, especially as a growing pup.

If you would like to continue to base the dog's diet on beef, I can give you a simple breakdown of how to get enough bones into it. If you want to use poultry, that's easy too.

But 80% muscle meat and all the RMBs in the form of oxtail really needs to be adjusted. (Even if the RMBs were more appropriate for a pup, 80% muscle meat is way too much.) There is not enough calcium there for a pup to grow on.

Again, it's easily remedied, and I would be more than happy to give you very simple, very inexpensive sample diets.


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## Art Lavely (Apr 14, 2007)

I am Game to hear a good Diet with Beef as the main ingredient. Maybe others would like to hear it as well?

If I can do something better for my pup, I will change it for sure. 

No OxTails in Northern Cal?? LOL They are more than common here. :-k


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Yes, please, if you don't mind, Connie, post those recipes here instead of in a PM!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Art Lavely said:


> I am Game to hear a good Diet with Beef as the main ingredient. Maybe others would like to hear it as well?
> 
> If I can do something better for my pup, I will change it for sure.
> 
> No OxTails in Northern Cal?? LOL They are more than common here. :-k


Well, I guess I just never saw them. The store where I buy meat is small, with a small butcher counter.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

I think that any meat protein source can be the basis of a raw diet..... poultry, rabbit, lamb, and so on.

The thing is that it's harder (I think) to get enough RMBs without using rabbit or poultry.

So much of the beef that's in the butcher case is steaks and roasts (boneless).


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

I've used both whole poultry and poultry backs as the basis.

Backs, if they are meaty, are a pretty good replica of the whole-prey meat-bone ratio.

And they are *cheap.*

I add some muscle meat and try to vary that so I'm not using one protein source only (and one amino acid profile).

I used the Billinghurst and Lonsdale books and the NJ Boxer raw site when I was devising my own ingredient list. Later I got the Schultze book and liked a lot of that info too. (I take university courses in canine nutrition, and the info from those made it easier to gauge the books. Billinghurst was the pioneer, but later books just knew more stuff, as more research was done, like the ways that Omega 3s have been lost in modern diets.)

Anyway -- this link to suggested meals for a seven-day period is basic, simple, and, IMO, completely balanced (in the few crucial ways that a canine diet should be "balanced" -- mainly the meat/fat/bones).

You'll see that the poultry could be other meats, like lamb flaps, rabbit, etc.

http://leerburg.com/diet2.htm
Scroll to the 65-pound and the 90-pound dogs, each with a week of meals.

And puppies:
http://leerburg.com/feedpups.htm

I don't use the Super C, but that's up to you, of course.

And this (but I do use a little produce, and they don't):
http://www.rawdogranch.com/rawdietbasics.htm

http://www.rawdogranch.com/rawmeatybones.htm


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

BTW, a lot of people here feed raw.

Several have very imaginative diets that have lots of variety from free hunter-meat. :>)

Variety is excellent.

But it's fine to start slow and simple and not be overwhelmed.


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## Art Lavely (Apr 14, 2007)

Awesome! I am printing this out as we speak and I will for sure make some changes now that you have shown me the light.

Do you not give Vitamin C Supp's at all? Just wondering.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Art Lavely said:


> Awesome! I am printing this out as we speak and I will for sure make some changes now that you have shown me the light.
> 
> Do you not give Vitamin C Supp's at all? Just wondering.


I don't, unless there is a reason.

Dogs make their own C, but many people (authoritative people) have concluded that the boost to the autoimmune system from more is a good thing.

I am sort of on the fence about it. I do feed produce, my dogs are healthy, they make and ingest vitamin C..... so I just don't supplement it.

But you'll see that many very well educated raw feeders do.... so there ya go.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Art Lavely said:


> Awesome! I am printing this out as we speak and I will for sure make some changes now that you have shown me the light.



Cool, Art!

Raw feeding is really simple. It's just that there are one or two crucial things, and those pages cover them. :>)


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