# 14 month old stud dog???



## David Feliciano

I just read an advertisement for a litter sired by a 14 month old malinois. This wasn't from a small time or first time breeder either. The dog has no health checks and even his prelims were pending. Its not like he was bred to an accomplished bitch either, but rather an untitled bitch. I'm not doubting that the puppies might be fantabulous, but question the ethics behind breeding this way. I don't want to point fingers and give names either because its not like this is D'only time I've seen this.


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## Mike Scheiber

You seem to have no trouble keeping your yapper shut on most any other subjects who is the breeder.
Why not expose the shyster


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## David Feliciano

Just reread the advertisement and it claims his OFA is pending and were already sent in. This makes no sense because a dog has to be two years old to send in Xrays


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## Christopher Jones

Mike Scheiber said:


> You seem to have no trouble keeping your yapper shut on most any other subjects who is the breeder.
> Why not expose the shyster


I think the "D'only" comment was your hint Mike......


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## Mike Scheiber

Christopher Jones said:


> I think the "D'only" comment was your hint Mike......


I wonder how long its going to take Americans to fuk up the breed. My guess is 80% of the Malinois ever to walk on American soil are alive as I type this 20 years ago I think you could count the litters on one hand that were whelped here.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

D'Only people that are even close to qualified to discuss this are the people that bred the dog, IF that happened. 

D'Only thing you two knotheads know how to do is imagine.


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## David Feliciano

One time I imagined that I was on the internets and I came across a breeding advertised on a breeder's website. Oh wait even better...

A little bird once told me that somebody bred a 14 month old puppy then lied about submitting Xrays to OFA

Imagine no health checks
It isn't hard to do
No need for Xrays or ethics
No Orthopedic Foundation for Animals too

Imagine all the people breeding fourteen month old puppies. You may say I'm a dreamer but I'm not D'only one


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## Austin Matthews

David Feliciano said:


> One time I imagined that I was on the internets and I came across a breeding advertised on a breeder's website. Oh wait even better...
> 
> A little bird once told me that somebody bred a 14 month old puppy then lied about submitting Xrays to OFA
> 
> Imagine no health checks
> It isn't hard to do
> No need for Xrays or ethics
> No Orthopedic Foundation for Animals too
> 
> Imagine all the people breeding fourteen month old puppies. You may say I'm a dreamer but I'm not D'only one


Haha


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## Candy Eggert

David Feliciano said:


> One time I imagined that I was on the internets and I came across a breeding advertised on a breeder's website. Oh wait even better...
> 
> A little bird once told me that somebody bred a 14 month old puppy then lied about submitting Xrays to OFA
> 
> Imagine no health checks
> It isn't hard to do
> No need for Xrays or ethics
> No Orthopedic Foundation for Animals too
> 
> Imagine all the people breeding fourteen month old puppies. You may say I'm a dreamer but I'm not D'only one


You can submit "prelim" xrays to OFA for evaluation and get a rating done by Dr. Keller. They call it a "Preliminary Consult Report". That evaluation can be reported on their website if you choose.

You don't get a OFA number until you resubmit at 2+ years.


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## Christopher Jones

Candy Eggert said:


> You can submit "prelim" xrays to OFA for evaluation and get a rating done by Dr. Keller. They call it a "Preliminary Consult Report". That evaluation can be reported on their website if you choose.
> 
> You don't get a OFA number until you resubmit at 2+ years.


From what I understand the prelims and the finals dont change all that much results wise does it?
Here you can score at 12 months of age. I wonder why we have a 12 month difference?
And Penn Hip is at 6 months?


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## David Feliciano

"OFA Hips/Elbows - normal (official eval pending - sent 02/18/10)"

That is the exact wording from the ad.


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## Carol Boche

At least it is not a 14 month old Bitch.
And, maybe it was an accidental breeding.


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## Anna Kasho

You do not believe an experienced vet can tell you what the hips/elbows look like, before they are sent for an official eval?

Prelim OFA can be done starting at 12 months of age, Pennhip can be done starting at 16 weeks, according to my ortho vet...


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Apparently it is the radiation from the x-ray machine that insures that the puppies hips turn out perfectly. 

Perhaps you learn more about HD before you start throwing rocks.


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## Candy Eggert

Christopher Jones said:


> From what I understand the prelims and the finals dont change all that much results wise does it?
> Here you can score at 12 months of age. I wonder why we have a 12 month difference?
> And Penn Hip is at 6 months?


Good question about the age differences between the two countries. Most vets here don't consider a dog fully mature/grown until 24 months. Or maybe it's some unspoken thing about breeding before the age of 2 years?! So I would suspect that the vets are the driving force behind the age factor.

Obviously the vet concensus in Oz is different? Would be interesting to hear what differences they see that vets here don't?


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## David Feliciano

WOW apparently Jim Downey isn't D'only one on the forum with reading comprehension issues. The dog is listed as OFA normal and it says the *OFFICIAL* eval is pending then ads the date Xrays were sent. It makes no mention of it being prelims. Deceitful IMHO

You all like to read way too much into things. The dogs hips may very well be perfect, but they aren't "OFA normal" I never questioned the conformation of his hips and quite frankly don't give a shit. The breeder on the other hand, is giving off the impression that she sent in his X rays for an *OFFICIAL eval*


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## Don Turnipseed

Well, I bred a 7 mo old male back to his grand dam. He was a heck of a dog and died at 14 1/2. As long as the dog has what it takes why waste half of his breeding life. Maybe the breeder saw something special at 14 mo.. Never had his hips checked. So he's not D'only one.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Most people seem to think that a hip eval or health checks are going to secure their pups future. Just not true. 

However, I just think that you have some sort of issue with the Skinners and have decided to try and make them look bad. Hows that going for you ??


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## Anna Kasho

For someone who doesn't give a shit, you are certainly wasting a lot of energy and time to point it out... Hey, I see I'm not the only one to think it's a personal issue. Did they refuse to sell you a puppy?:lol:


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## David Feliciano

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Most people seem to think that a hip eval or health checks are going to secure their pups future. Just not true.
> 
> However, I just think that you have some sort of issue with the Skinners and have decided to try and make them look bad. Hows that going for you ??


The who?

I am a big fan of Burrhus Frederick Skinner, however I just wanted to spark some intelligent debate on the usage of young stud dogs. That doesn't seem to be going so well


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## David Feliciano

Anna Kasho said:


> For someone who doesn't give a shit, you are certainly wasting a lot of energy and time to point it out... Hey, I see I'm not the only one to think it's a personal issue. Did they refuse to sell you a puppy?:lol:


Anna, baby you are killing me. I said I don't give a shit about the conformation of his hips! I am pointing out the fact that it is impossible for him to have an official OFA eval


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: I just wanted to spark some intelligent debate on the usage of young stud dogs. That doesn't seem to be going so well

No you didn't. Not even a little bit. 

Stick with your high fives you get for backstabbing people. I wonder how many you will get for this shit ???


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## David Feliciano

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: I just wanted to spark some intelligent debate on the usage of young stud dogs. That doesn't seem to be going so well
> 
> No you didn't. Not even a little bit.
> 
> Stick with your high fives you get for backstabbing people. I wonder how many you will get for this shit ???


Jeff, once again how have I ****ed you over or backstabbed you?


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## Debbie Skinner

Wow what I miss...  At least they are talking about me and my dog! 

From my website D'Only's page: *
"Hips & Elbows X-rayed - normal (02/18/10 - Official Prelim Evaluation Letter below)" Letter is on the page and I've attached it here too from OFA.

I sure hope the puppies turn out as nice as when I used Dexter (at 12 months old) and produced Bogan, etc. But, D'Only was 14 months...wonder if it makes a difference? Wonder if Dexter's puppies since he's been FRIII are better than the first ones....hmm.. :lol: 

Seriously, I've had very good success when breeding when I use excellent dogs and put them with excellent dogs with complimentary pedigrees regardless of the age of the sire and dam. One thing nice about using the male early on is that the breeder can see if their nice working male is also a producer. For a competitor this doesn't matter, but to a breeder I need to know if the dog is going to be a "stud dog" for me or if I should sell him to a sport or police home where he's a better fit.

BTW, I've never had a dog not go "Good" or "Excellent" at 2 years old with OFA that was prelim'd at 12-14 months old "Good". 

I'm not concerned about the health of D'Only because his has been checked. Temperament and drives...I know the dog since the day he was born here. Now we see how he produces against some nice females.






 


*


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## Debbie Skinner

David Feliciano said:


> "OFA Hips/Elbows - normal (official eval pending - sent 02/18/10)"
> 
> That is the exact wording from the ad.


It's been updated on my web page (the link on the ad) when I got the letter. Then I attached the letter to the website via a thumbnail some months back. I forgot about updating the ad to reflect this since all the puppies have been reserved since the first week. Very, very sorry for the confusion it has caused you. 

Weren't you all worked up about the age of Bogan when Steve bought him from me too? What's with the date obsession? 

Did you notice that Dexter was only 12 months when I used him to produce that litter and he had an OFA Prellm letter and Case # as well..or was that before you started probing? LOL Dexter has been OFA (officially) for years now. Prelim showed "Good" and OFA "Good". So it's been pretty predictable even on the large dogs.

http://www.pawsnclaws.us/dexter_ped.htm

I'm thinking that since Dexter was born in Belgium and then came to California and then went back to France to be titled and eventually comes back to California..that hmmm...I bet he produces better when he gets back here just from the trip across the pond.. What does everyone think?


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## Debbie Skinner

David Feliciano said:


> WOW apparently Jim Downey isn't D'only one on the forum with reading comprehension issues. The dog is listed as OFA normal and it says the *OFFICIAL* eval is pending then ads the date Xrays were sent. It makes no mention of it being prelims. Deceitful IMHO
> 
> You all like to read way too much into things. The dogs hips may very well be perfect, but they aren't "OFA normal" I never questioned the conformation of his hips and quite frankly don't give a shit. The breeder on the other hand, is giving off the impression that she sent in his X rays for an *OFFICIAL eval*


Because I did submit them to ofa and have the letter posted on my site. It's not an impression. But, you give a great impression of a horse's *ss. You are definitely a cull puppy. :-D


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## Tracey Hughes

I am more concerned about temperament and working ability, that seems to be harder to find these days then a “excellent” hip.

If I can get the type of temperament I want in a working/sport prospect only then would I then be worried about how the hips are looking, and personally if the dog didn’t pass an OFA but was a really good, strong dog I just might still use him in a breeding, depending on his breed, his genetics, the bitch I am considering at the time etc..etc..


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## Maren Bell Jones

Not only the certifications, but pups change as they mature. How can you really test a dog if he's not physically and mentally mature?


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## Don Turnipseed

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Not only the certifications, but pups change as they mature. How can you really test a dog if he's not physically and mentally mature?


Takes actual experience Maren but to an experienced breeder like Debbie, certain dogs stand out like a sore thumb but most people would never notice the difference. It is actual hands on experience.


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## Debbie Skinner

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Not only the certifications, but pups change as they mature. How can you really test a dog if he's not physically and mentally mature?


Dogs mature at different rates. If a dog is really strong at a year..do you think he'll be less at 2 years old? But, if a dog is immature at 1 year old and I'm still waiting to see...well, I may not ever use that dog in a breeding program.. 

Breeders and trainers can see a lot after training a dog to a year old because we see a lot of dogs and raise a lot of them. 

I wouldn't try to be a vet because I don't have the training..but, a lot of dog owners want to think they can "out-do", advise, lecture, and know more than experienced breeders and trainers.... There is expertise involved in breeding dogs.

How do you know what you are doing when doing surgery on a calf, dog, etc? I'm just trying to put it in perspective that experience in one's chosen field gives the knowledge to know and make decisions.


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## Debbie Skinner

Don Turnipseed said:


> Takes actual experience Maren but to an experienced breeder like Debbie, certain dogs stand out like a sore thumb but most people would never notice the difference. It is actual hands on experience.



Wow, you wrote what I was trying to say in a lot less words!


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## Konnie Hein

Looking forward to seeing vids of the little puppers. 

What are D'Only's siblings up to these days?


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## Debbie Skinner

Konnie Hein said:


> Looking forward to seeing vids of the little puppers.
> 
> What are D'Only's siblings up to these days?


You forget he's D'Only one in the litter....he was the PICK! LOL

The repeat breeding...one female E'Glitz in France with Dexter's trainer, One male Eko in KS doing SchH, the female I kept E'Bling with co-owner in Ramona doing SchH and we train her a bit in ring. Actually her 18 year old son is training her now. Bling's page: www.pawsnclaws.us/E'Bling_ped.htm The repeat breeding is 11 months old now.

Did you notice that I got one "odd-ball" blue pup in the D'Only x Cadence litter?


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## Konnie Hein

I meant from the repeat litter - should have specified 
Thanks for the update!

I saw the blue one. Did you expect the potential for blue? I'm still learning about those potentials (for blues, long coats, etc.).


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## Debbie Skinner

Konnie Hein said:


> I meant from the repeat litter - should have specified
> Thanks for the update!
> 
> I saw the blue one. Did you expect the potential for blue? I'm still learning about those potentials (for blues, long coats, etc.).


Yes, expected it doubling on Zodt...you can get a lot of "pretty" colors doing that :-D


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## Timothy Stacy

Nice breeding Debbie, excited to see what comes of it!

David where are those pics of your new affliction jeans "beat off"! Are you one of those UFC followers that can't just watch it but have to dress in the clothing too LOL. I bet when you were young you were always decked out in the WWF wrestling shirts too! Oh how about the fist pic with Jeff. LMAO


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## Maren Bell Jones

Yeah, that may be, but that doesn't mean I still don't have to explain (with a reason) on why we do what we do.

Anyways, that's kind of the point that most dogs are not physically and mentally mature at 14 months though, so you're not getting a complete picture, which is what you want when you breed to improve the breed, right? Some females can go into their first heat as early as 5 months and males can start producing sperm at 6 months, so it's kind of a slippery slope to say "well, I know my dog is a strong dog" because a dog can look good at 6 months and then go through weird nervy or sharp stages until they mature and they may come out of it or they may not. A dog that might start out dog friendly or very social to people at 12 or 18 months can do a 180 by 24-36 months (I've had me a couple of those...), so if puppy buyers are looking for one thing, they may end up with something different than the sire or dam originally was showing. Of course, it's really helpful to know your own lines really well, but that's not always possible, especially if you've got recent imports or even domestic purchases.

Thinking about this a bit, probably the absolutely *most* ideal situation would be to collect semen on a dog to and not breed him during his lifetime to note his longevity in terms of both health (as some issues pop up later) and working ability. But most people don't have the patience for it as it wouldn't be super practical for a breeding program. So a compromise would be waiting til the dog is fully mentally and physically mature. From what I understand, Mals/Dutch shepherds would be 2-2.5ish and GSDs/Rottweilers/Dobermans would be 2-3ish years.

My point is that we want make as an informed breeding decision as possible for the betterment of the working Malinois, right? One of our theriogenology professors is big on using a breeding soundness exam to look for any and all opportunities to fail a bull, dog, buck goat, ram, whatever because if you're honestly looking to better the breed, ruthless elimination of sires will hopefully help cut down on ruthless elimination of offspring and wasted time in your breeding program. I think this is a really good practice. Haven't been in the market for a puppy for about 3 years, but there was not a lack of working lines Malinois litters then (I was interested in maybe half a dozen litters at the time), so I guess the question I'd ask is what in your experienced opinion made it necessitate the breeding of this dog right now instead of when he's considered an adult and fully mature? In addition, what was the selection criteria of the dam?


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## Konnie Hein

Debbie Skinner said:


> Yes, expected it doubling on Zodt...you can get a lot of "pretty" colors doing that :-D


Ooooh hey, you could make a killing selling those "rare" Malinois colors!!! :razz:


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## Konnie Hein

Maren Bell Jones said:


> One of our theriogenology professors is big on using a breeding soundness exam to look for any and all opportunities to fail a bull, dog, buck goat, ram, whatever because if you're honestly looking to better the breed, ruthless elimination of sires will hopefully help cut down on ruthless elimination of offspring and wasted time in your breeding program. I think this is a really good practice.


Of course this sounds good in theory, but what are the criteria? I think most "reputable" (another subjective term - define reputable!) breeders use a "breeding soundness exam" prior to using a dog for breeding. However, each breeder has their own opinion on what that "exam" should consist of and what traits qualify a dog to be sound enough or suitable for breeding. It's entirely subjective and never as black-or-white as most people think it is or should be.


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## Debbie Skinner

I would never use a Malinois for breeding that went through a "nervy stage". 

Some dogs are super at 12-14 months old and just keep getting better. Since I want to produce this type of dog, I would recommend using this type of dog in the breeding program...use the exception, early to show he's the exception and no weird stages of nerviness. 

No, not a slippery slope. Just because we use a male at around 12-14 months, doesn't mean that we would use one younger. Yes, most important, you must know your bloodlines, know dogs and know what you are doing. Breeders and trainers must network and collectively provide information on the dogs to keep the breedings going in the right direction. Most importantly, you must be objective and critical of the dogs and know qualities and faults when they are in front of you regardless of the kennel name attached to the dog. If you don't then all the "fancy talk" about what you are trying to do is mute. The proof is in the results. 

All my dogs tolerate people and other dogs, but then again I'm their boss and don't tolerate nonsense either. Me and my friends routinely hike and ride horses with an intact group of dogs, but that's because we are their pack leaders. Many times it's the owners not the dogs that are at fault when a dog matures and "takes over" doing what he wants to do. A strong dog will "take up the slack" and "take over" if the owner isn't strong enough to lead. 

Just because you as a non-breeder think that some other breeding practice is more ideal, w/o proof, doesn't mean it's the way to go either. If you breed 20+ years dogs and show me how this works to produce consistent quality then I would consider you ideas more valid. 

I bred these 2 because their temperaments compliment each other in that Cadence is more calm, laid back,with a very excellent hard bite, good retrieve, excellent jumping; both dogs very, very stable and confident, both dogs have excellent drives and both very intelligent, good with other animals, people, etc. D'Only has over the top bite drive and bite quality and is very, very fast and hard on the entry, very sound under distractions, excellent jumping and super hunt drive, handler hard, loves the fight...I really can't say enough about him as for me he's about perfect in what I want a malinois. Both are good size and he's about the best size for all around work for me..about 75lbs now. Both have heavy muscling and good structure, health clearances. Then there's the pedigrees and how they mess together. I love Saida and her siblings. She is a great producing female. She's a daughter of Zodt and I wanted to double on this side due to drives, character, handler hard, and all around tough, hard biting, **good dogs**. It's not novel to line-breed on Zodt..it's not my invention..been done in Europe with success. Now we wait and see how the puppies develop...I'll post videos just like I always do...I figured I'd wait until they turned 4 weeks old and are on the suit first! LOL

I get tired of the **breeder police** who don't breed and have absolutely no practical experience. You should probably go and tell AZ how to handle their illegal problems and also go and tell Honda and Toyota how to build better cars even if you've never done it before. 

I'm always very, very upfront and if you ask a question, I'll be happy to answer. But, it's difficult for me to believe that you really want my answer of why I did this breeding when you preface it with how you think I'm doing wrong by the breed and how I should of done things differently. 

But, still I gave you a few paragraphs of my time. But, I hope you can see how you come off as acting superior and your question seems sarcastic in it's tone. You have shown hostility in the past to breeders. Many vets actually seem to be anti-breeder in my experience as well.

I really put a lot of thought, research, TIME and $$$ into my dogs and everything that I do with them. They are my life and my passion and it's insulting to me and other serious breeders that you sit there as judge and jury regarding something you know nothing about. If you phrase things differently and make suggestions,or asked questions that you really wanted answered instead of the way you go about it, it would be better received.

The weather is great here and I'm spending most of my time outside with the dogs. I'll post more photos and videos soon and time will tell if I'm on the right track or not. 

Debbie



Maren Bell Jones said:


> Yeah, that may be, but that doesn't mean I still don't have to explain (with a reason) on why we do what we do.
> 
> Anyways, that's kind of the point that most dogs are not physically and mentally mature at 14 months though, so you're not getting a complete picture, which is what you want when you breed to improve the breed, right? Some females can go into their first heat as early as 5 months and males can start producing sperm at 6 months, so it's kind of a slippery slope to say "well, I know my dog is a strong dog" because a dog can look good at 6 months and then go through weird nervy or sharp stages until they mature and they may come out of it or they may not. A dog that might start out dog friendly or very social to people at 12 or 18 months can do a 180 by 24-36 months (I've had me a couple of those...), so if puppy buyers are looking for one thing, they may end up with something different than the sire or dam originally was showing. Of course, it's really helpful to know your own lines really well, but that's not always possible, especially if you've got recent imports or even domestic purchases.
> 
> Thinking about this a bit, probably the absolutely *most* ideal situation would be to collect semen on a dog to and not breed him during his lifetime to note his longevity in terms of both health (as some issues pop up later) and working ability. But most people don't have the patience for it as it wouldn't be super practical for a breeding program. So a compromise would be waiting til the dog is fully mentally and physically mature. From what I understand, Mals/Dutch shepherds would be 2-2.5ish and GSDs/Rottweilers/Dobermans would be 2-3ish years.
> 
> My point is that we want make as an informed breeding decision as possible for the betterment of the working Malinois, right? One of our theriogenology professors is big on using a breeding soundness exam to look for any and all opportunities to fail a bull, dog, buck goat, ram, whatever because if you're honestly looking to better the breed, ruthless elimination of sires will hopefully help cut down on ruthless elimination of offspring and wasted time in your breeding program. I think this is a really good practice. Haven't been in the market for a puppy for about 3 years, but there was not a lack of working lines Malinois litters then (I was interested in maybe half a dozen litters at the time), so I guess the question I'd ask is what in your experienced opinion made it necessitate the breeding of this dog right now instead of when he's considered an adult and fully mature? In addition, what was the selection criteria of the dam?


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## Debbie Skinner

Konnie Hein said:


> Ooooh hey, you could make a killing selling those "rare" Malinois colors!!! :razz:


LOL! It would seem, huh as some are specializing in them! LOL I don't think I'll ever do that! I do spend a bunch on the dogs though..don't we all?


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## Konnie Hein

Debbie Skinner said:


> LOL! It would seem, huh as some are specializing in them! LOL I don't think I'll ever do that! I do spend a bunch on the dogs though..don't we all?


Ha ha - maybe I should have said, "Oooohh hey, you could "break even" selling those rare colored Malinois!" LOL :lol:


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## Debbie Skinner

Forgot to answer the one part for Maren about why not wait until later to breed this combo..because I have a plan and dogs have a relative short breeding life. The future plan for the double Saida female(s) -- (D'Only x Cadence) **if they are good** is to take one or both back to Dexter and Dexter sons. Dexter is now 5 years old. The 2 girls will be sent to France to Christophe.


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## Don Turnipseed

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Yeah, that may be, but that doesn't mean I still don't have to explain (with a reason) on why we do what we do.
> 
> 
> My point is that we want make as an informed breeding decision as possible for the betterment of the working Malinois, right? One of our theriogenology professors is big on using a breeding soundness exam to look for any and all opportunities to fail a bull, dog, buck goat, ram, whatever because if you're honestly looking to better the breed, ruthless elimination of sires will hopefully help cut down on ruthless elimination of offspring and wasted time in your breeding program. I think this is a really good practice. Haven't been in the market for a puppy for about 3 years, but there was not a lack of working lines Malinois litters then (I was interested in maybe half a dozen litters at the time), so I guess the question I'd ask is what in your experienced opinion made it necessitate the breeding of this dog right now instead of when he's considered an adult and fully mature? In addition, what was the selection criteria of the dam?


Maren, it is inevitable that this mindset always comes from those that have never bred a dog in their life. Your first supposition that we have to explain why we do what we do is BS. I don't have to explain, Debbie doesn't have to explain, why we do anything. Anyone that doesn't approve is free to go elsewhere. I can tell you the best dogs in a litter at 4 weeks of age. They go through their swings, but, barring some eathshaking mishap, what you see at 4 weeks is pretty much what they will end up being.

I bred Higgins at 7 mo. I saw all I needed to see. He was set on at the end of my driveway by an 85lb dobe that had already killed several other dogs. Higgins was 6 1/2 mo and the fight lasted for about 15 to 20 seconds. The pup left the dobe laying at the gate and met me as I was running down to save him. Since these dogs are bred to handle dangerous game, he earned his stripes that morning because he was totally cool about it and just happy go lucky. His offspring figured in heavily in the breeding here.


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## Don Turnipseed

Debbie Skinner said:


> Forgot to answer the one part for Maren about why not wait until later to breed this combo..because I have a plan and dogs have a relative short breeding life. The future plan for the double Saida female(s) -- (D'Only x Cadence) **if they are good** is to take one or both back to Dexter and Dexter sons. Dexter is now 5 years old. The 2 girls will be sent to France to Christophe.


Ok, so Debbie felt she would clarify....but no one has to explain themselves to people that don't have a clue about breeding.


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## Debbie Skinner

Don Turnipseed said:


> Ok, so Debbie felt she would clarify....but no one has to explain themselves to people that don't have a clue about breeding.


I was answering more for everyone else's benefit. Some actually want to know why breeders breed a certain way and why this dog to that bitch, etc.


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## Don Turnipseed

So now I am curious. David, you made the statement that you were looking for an intelligent discussion earlier. How many good litters have you produced that would qualify you as a participant of such an intelligent discussion?


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## David Feliciano

Debbie Skinner said:


> Because I did submit them to ofa and have the letter posted on my site. It's not an impression. But, you give a great impression of a horse's *ss. You are definitely a cull puppy. :-D


The breeding page says differently(official). Why is D'only's age not posted on the breeding page? Do you expect everybody to check both pages? 

Breeding 14 month old stud dogs is UNACCEPTABLE and you just ADMITTED to doing it on PURPOSE. Your have no ethics


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## David Feliciano

Come on Debbie everybody knows you are a shady. Everybody knows some shady shit went down with Dexter and we WILL NEVER SEE HIM IN THE USA AGAIN. Always something with you. 

Is it any wonder you are breeding his progeny so young? Could it be because you can't get his blood anymore.


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## Debbie Skinner

David Feliciano said:


> The breeding page says differently(official). Why is D'only's age not posted on the breeding page? Do you expect everybody to check both pages?
> 
> Breeding 14 month old stud dogs is UNACCEPTABLE and you just ADMITTED to doing it on PURPOSE. Your have no ethics


Internet balls? :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: You sure don't talk the talk in person.


----------



## David Feliciano

Debbie Skinner said:


> Internet balls? :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: You sure don't talk the talk in person.


We've never met. Try me! Its on!


----------



## David Feliciano

Ask around and find out what happened last time somebody popped off at the mouth to me in dogsport


----------



## Debbie Skinner

David Feliciano said:


> Come on Debbie everybody knows you are a shady. Everybody knows some shady shit went down with Dexter and we WILL NEVER SEE HIM IN THE USA AGAIN. Always something with you.
> 
> Is it any wonder you are breeding his progeny so young? Could it be because you can't get his blood anymore.



What do you know about my dogs that I don't? Whose everybody and what do they know that I don't know? What progeny are you referring too? BTW, D'Only is Master x Saida. You are not a thinker.

We frequently take dogs back and forth. Avatar and Phantom are in France now too. Avatar and Dexter will be BACK! Phantom will stay there for the improvement of the breed. 

See pixs of my Erika (Dexter daughter). Now 7 months old. http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/476699/Erika-du-Rocher-des-Loups

I do expect people to be able to read with comprehension.


----------



## Don Turnipseed

I think Jef was on the money....Davids intention was to stir shit. Had nothing to do with an intelligent conversation. So how many litters have you had David. I am curious as to how you determine what is ethical on what is not.


----------



## Debbie Skinner

David Feliciano said:


> Ask around and find out what happened last time somebody popped off at the mouth to me in dogsport


All you are is a mouth. You lie and try to start shit. No one takes you seriously as you are a nobody. You lie in about every post you make on WDF. No one cares about you. You just take turns attacking different people and then get in a huff when we don't care. Did I mention, who cares? LOL


----------



## David Feliciano

Debbie Skinner said:


> What do you know about my dogs that I don't? Whose everybody and what do they know that I don't know? What progeny are you referring too? BTW, D'Only is Master x Saida. You are not a thinker.
> 
> We frequently take dogs back and forth. Avatar and Phantom are in France now too. Avatar and Dexter will be BACK! Phantom will stay there for the improvement of the breed.
> 
> See pixs of my Erika (Dexter daughter). Now 7 months old. http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/476699/Erika-du-Rocher-des-Loups
> 
> I do expect people to be able to read with comprehension.


That young untitled bitch you bred to D'only was out of Dexter, no?

You've been singing the same song for four years now regarding Dexter. Mark my words. HE WILL NEVER BE IN THE USA AGAIN


----------



## Debbie Skinner

don turnipseed said:


> i think jef was on the money....davids intention was to stir shit. Had nothing to do with an intelligent conversation. So how many litters have you had david. I am curious as to how you determine what is ethical on what is not.


agreed.


----------



## David Feliciano

Debbie Skinner said:


> All you are is a mouth. You lie and try to start shit. No one takes you seriously as you are a nobody. You lie in about every post you make on WDF. No one cares about you. You just take turns attacking different people and then get in a huff when we don't care. Did I mention, who cares? LOL



I don't see any other mali breeders here backing you up.


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Don Turnipseed said:


> I think Jef was on the money....Davids intention was to stir shit. Had nothing to do with an intelligent conversation. So how many litters have you had David. I am curious as to how you determine what is ethical on what is not.


Overall the WDF forum is a great place to throw out ideas and get information. It is true that many times, the ones with no experience have all the opinions on what others should do. I'm glad we are all free to "ignore" the bad apples and carry on real discussions.

I am very excited by what I see so far with these puppies. They are very active and very thick at 4 weeks old (today). I do plan to take Erika (Dexter daughter) in the future to D'Only. This will give me some insight into what to expect when we breed the D'Only daughters to Dexter. Other breeders can understand thinking ahead to the next generation and penciling out the possible breeding combinations. 

Right now I have nothing to breed Dexter to so he stays in France to trial and stand at stud, but in a couple years I'll have females to breed to him and Christophe will need females to go with his Dexter daughters as well. It's advantageous to work with other breeders and trade stock.

More pixs of the litter puppers can be found at: www.pawsnclaws.us/malpups.htm and pixs, vids etc of D'Only can be found on his page: www.pawsnclaws.us/D'Only_ped.htm

I'm thinking of going for a "virtual ring" title with D'Only since I have quite a few youtube vids up. Then later titling him in France! Maybe his puppies will be better that way! LOL


----------



## Carol Boche

David Feliciano said:


> I don't see any other mali breeders here backing you up.


I will back her up. I figured you were talking about someone that had no clue as to what they were doing when you first posted.......

But, you are small fish that jumped into the big fish pool when you had no business doing so......

Do your research before you talk smack David.....


----------



## David Feliciano

Debbie Skinner said:


> I'm thinking of going for a "virtual ring" title with D'Only since I have quite a few youtube vids up. Then later titling him in France! Maybe his puppies will be better that way! LOL


That would come as no surprise seeing as you haven't titled a dog since Danny Terrio had his own TV show. 

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7bgb9_dance-fever-memoirs_music


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Carol Boche said:


> I will back her up. I figured you were talking about someone that had no clue as to what they were doing when you first posted.......
> 
> But, you are small fish that jumped into the big fish pool when you had no business doing so......
> 
> Do your research before you talk smack David.....


Thanks..hey, and if your little Buko girl keeps going like she's going..If you want to breed her to Dexter (he'll be back! LOL) then I'm ok and we'll make a BIG announcement about it! LOL Hey, I won't even make a fuss if she's 2 days shy of 2 years old ..gosh darn it! :lol::lol::lol:


----------



## Konnie Hein

Debbie Skinner said:


> I am very excited by what I see so far with these puppies. They are very active and very thick at 4 weeks old (today). I do plan to take Erika (Dexter daughter) in the future to D'Only. This will give me some insight into what to expect when we breed the D'Only daughters to Dexter. Other breeders can understand thinking ahead to the next generation and penciling out the possible breeding combinations.
> 
> Right now I have nothing to breed Dexter to so he stays in France to trial and stand at stud, but in a couple years I'll have females to breed to him and Christophe will need females to go with his Dexter daughters as well. It's advantageous to work with other breeders and trade stock.


I think it's great that there are experienced breeders out there willing to share their visions and give insight to the direction they're going with their breeding programs. 

I've learned a whole hell of a lot from a couple of long-time Mal breeders here on wdf.com, and for that I am extremely grateful.


----------



## Debbie Skinner

How to cull: (super easy to do) go to person's public profile and then "users list" and chose "ignore".


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Konnie Hein said:


> I think it's great that there are experienced breeders out there willing to share their visions and give insight to the direction they're going with their breeding programs.
> 
> I've learned a whole hell of a lot from a couple of long-time Mal breeders here on wdf.com, and for that I am extremely grateful.


And you have a 1/2 brother to D'Only so it's interesting for me to see what he's bred to and produces. Additionally important to see other combos from Master too as he's still going strong. That's what's interesting about Dexter being used here and in France and then his offspring being used here and there as well with different combinations. All this gives insight and possibilities to cross back into.


----------



## Konnie Hein

And you'd better believe that I'm paying attention! :smile::smile::smile::smile:


----------



## David Feliciano

Debbie Skinner said:


> How to cull: (super easy to do) go to person's public profile and then "users list" and chose "ignore".


Perfect, now I can talk about you with impunity and without having you muddy up all of the good facts I'm throwing out.


----------



## Carol Boche

Debbie Skinner said:


> Thanks..hey, and if your little Buko girl keeps going like she's going..If you want to breed her to Dexter (he'll be back! LOL) then I'm ok and we'll make a BIG announcement about it! LOL Hey, I won't even make a fuss if she's 2 days shy of 2 years old ..gosh darn it! :lol::lol::lol:


......will definitely keep that in mind. 
Pulled some pre- prelims when I had her shoulder x-rayed (she ran into the wall..LOL) and they looked good from what was seen, so does that count? LOL


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Konnie Hein said:


> And you'd better believe that I'm paying attention! :smile::smile::smile::smile:


Did you do another breeding with Juice recently? I'm thinking of breeding Bambi (Dexter/Saida) to Master in the Fall.


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Carol Boche said:


> ......will definitely keep that in mind.
> Pulled some pre- prelims when I had her shoulder x-rayed (she ran into the wall..LOL) and they looked good from what was seen, so does that count? LOL


You better take a "poll" to know if it counts and what to do in breeding her! :lol::lol:


----------



## David Feliciano

Look osmosis happening before our eyes. Carol and Debbie talking breeding. WATER SEEKS ITS OWN LEVEL


----------



## Carol Boche

Debbie Skinner said:


> You better take a "poll" to know if it counts and what to do in breeding her! :lol::lol:


:lol::lol::lol:


----------



## Thomas Barriano

David Feliciano said:


> Perfect, now I can talk about you with impunity and without having you muddy up all of the good facts I'm throwing out.


NO you can't. Debbie is respected in the dog world and you're NOT. You're "facts" are open to debate.


----------



## David Feliciano

Thomas Barriano said:


> You're "facts" are open to debate.


A shining example of how brilliant the dog sport world is.


----------



## David Feliciano

Thomas enlighten me, who in the malinois world respects Debbie.


----------



## Konnie Hein

Debbie Skinner said:


> Did you do another breeding with Juice recently? I'm thinking of breeding Bambi (Dexter/Saida) to Master in the Fall.


Nope...waiting to see how his litter with Sasha pans out. They are still pretty young (Born end of Jan. 2010). So far, so good though - showing the drives and temperaments we expected. I'll send you some vids. One of the pups is in my FR club - nice little guy.


----------



## Carol Boche

David Feliciano said:


> Look osmosis happening before our eyes. Carol and Debbie talking breeding. WATER SEEKS ITS OWN LEVEL


Funny how you can talk shit without knowing anything about us except for maybe what you have heard.....

I find it funny that there are people out there like this....making snap decisions without any prior first hand knowledge, but rather based on the BS gossip world.....it shows just how smart they really are.


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Konnie Hein said:


> Nope...waiting to see how his litter with Sasha pans out. They are still pretty young (Born end of Jan. 2010). So far, so good though - showing the drives and temperaments we expected. I'll send you some vids. One of the pups is in my FR club - nice little guy.


Great. Would love to see the videos of the pups.


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Carol Boche said:


> Funny how you can talk shit without knowing anything about us except for maybe what you have heard.....
> 
> I find it funny that there are people out there like this....making snap decisions without any prior first hand knowledge, but rather based on the BS gossip world.....it shows just how smart they really are.


I have a question...if all of WDF puts someone on ignore do they cease to exist? If a tree falls in the forest and nobody is there.... hmmm....


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Thomas Barriano said:


> NO you can't. Debbie is respected in the dog world and you're NOT. You're "facts" are open to debate.



:lol::lol:


----------



## Carol Boche

Debbie Skinner said:


> I have a question...if all of WDF puts someone on ignore do they cease to exist? If a tree falls in the forest and nobody is there.... hmmm....


I can't find the ignore button.....I know it is there somewhere...](*,)


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Carol Boche said:


> I can't find the ignore button.....I know it is there somewhere...](*,)



It's posted under the general Q&As: Click 'view public profile' of the person, go to 'user lists' and click 'add to ignore list'. That way if a bear shits in the woods, you don't have to smell it!


----------



## Carol Boche

Debbie Skinner said:


> It's posted under the general Q&As: Click 'view public profile' of the person, go to 'user lists' and click 'add to ignore list'. That way if a bear shits in the woods, you don't have to smell it!


THANKS!!!! I knew I saw it somewhere back when Jeff was creating chaos and then could not find it again...ugh....:lol::lol::lol::lol:


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Breeding 14 month old stud dogs is UNACCEPTABLE and you just ADMITTED to doing it on PURPOSE

This is my problem with the internet. You got Dipshit here, and then you have Maren, who thinks cause she took a course on genetics or two that she has a clue.

So let me ask the dipshit, If she likes the dog, but waits till the dog is older, what changed ??

Why do the Germans give hip ratings at a year ?? Are they unethical ??

How many litters have either of you produced ?? Maren at least has an excuse, because I cannot tell you how many times we have told her goofy ass about something, and she scolded us for being bad people and then of course it happened to her. 

Remember the big blow up you had about ENS Maren ?? How you wouldn't get a dog from someone that DOES NOT DO IT ?? LOL Ya got took.

You guys gonna scold me because Soda was 17 months old when I bred her ?? Do you think the extra months are the KEY to good breeding ??

Until people realize that most retards complaining about a breeder and their ethics, or their breeding stock, or the hips, or the health, honestly have never bred a dog before, and is just repeating some propaganda they read somewhere else, this shit is gonna happen again and again.

By the way, I saw a free puppy sign when I was out there in California. Why don't the two of you go out there and protest that shit. You could hold hands and wave signs.

I am only on page 5 of this shit. Geez.


----------



## Stephanie O'Brien

I'll back up Debbie.

I don't see anything 'unacceptable' with what she has done. I have seen D'Only in person MANY times since he was 7 weeks old and he is a very nice young dog. In fact, I think I've seen all of Debbie's dogs in person and I can say with a completely un-biased opinion that she has good dogs. Who cares if she bred a really nice 15 month old dog?? Like nobody has ever done that? Don't ever go overseas David, you would be appalled at how young or un-tested some dogs are when they are bred there. Serious breeders have a goal in mind that includes improvement with each generation and we can only keep dogs that produce well. Therefore, if a breeder thinks very highly of a dog and believes they will produce, there is only one thing left to do....breed the dog and find out.

David, I dont know you very well but i think we have met once or twice. In fact, I think you got your dog from a breeding that Waleed and I did several years back? Sometimes you get great dogs and sometimes you get some crap.
Breeding is a very costly and time consuming venue when done correctly. Not everything is set in stone, genetics can play games and sometimes you have to take a risk to move forward. Until you have been involved in it for many years, this is difficult to fully understand. Debbie doesn't sell female pups with breeding rights....neither do I. Trust me...I could be making a lot more $$$$ if I did. This is done to protect the breeding program because everyone is a 'breeder' nowadays and wants a 'good female to breed to their male'. Is a breeder evil because they cull? Or are they doing what most don't have the jimmys to do in order to weed out the weak links?
I don't write on these forums for a reason. Most of the time, troublemakers are looking to unfairly critique what they know nothing about and it gets old fast. I'm all about engaging in a constructive converstation but am not interested in bashing or gossip.
Debbie does what she feels is the correct route to take in order to produce better dogs. I would say her breeding track record as of recent is pretty positive.
I have had many discussions with her on the subject and while we don't agree on everything, we agree on most things and we respect each others goals in breeding as we both know the sacrifices that have been made along the way. Because of Debbie and MANY other good breeders, we have many excellent choices when it comes time to look for a new prospect.
Ok, time for me to go train my dogs :-D

ps- I believe Cadence is out of Bexter, not Dexter David.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

I am pissed that she has pups on the ground and is not putting video up. I got spoiled over at Ricks, got to play with pups a lot.


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I am pissed that she has pups on the ground and is not putting video up. I got spoiled over at Ricks, got to play with pups a lot.


 They turned 4 weeks old today...I'll get on it! LOL got pixs though. Ron is working at LAX and staying at Tim Welch' during the week. It will have to wait until the weekend. After they are at least 5 weeks and weaned I can start driving up there and training them. :-D


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Stephanie O'Brien said:


> I'll back up Debbie.
> 
> I don't see anything 'unacceptable' with what she has done. I have seen D'Only in person MANY times since he was 7 weeks old and he is a very nice young dog. In fact, I think I've seen all of Debbie's dogs in person and I can say with a completely un-biased opinion that she has good dogs. Who cares if she bred a really nice 15 month old dog?? Like nobody has ever done that? Don't ever go overseas David, you would be appalled at how young or un-tested some dogs are when they are bred there. Serious breeders have a goal in mind that includes improvement with each generation and we can only keep dogs that produce well. Therefore, if a breeder thinks very highly of a dog and believes they will produce, there is only one thing left to do....breed the dog and find out.
> 
> David, I dont know you very well but i think we have met once or twice. In fact, I think you got your dog from a breeding that Waleed and I did several years back? Sometimes you get great dogs and sometimes you get some crap.
> Breeding is a very costly and time consuming venue when done correctly. Not everything is set in stone, genetics can play games and sometimes you have to take a risk to move forward. Until you have been involved in it for many years, this is difficult to fully understand. Debbie doesn't sell female pups with breeding rights....neither do I. Trust me...I could be making a lot more $$$$ if I did. This is done to protect the breeding program because everyone is a 'breeder' nowadays and wants a 'good female to breed to their male'. Is a breeder evil because they cull? Or are they doing what most don't have the jimmys to do in order to weed out the weak links?
> I don't write on these forums for a reason. Most of the time, troublemakers are looking to unfairly critique what they know nothing about and it gets old fast. I'm all about engaging in a constructive converstation but am not interested in bashing or gossip.
> Debbie does what she feels is the correct route to take in order to produce better dogs. I would say her breeding track record as of recent is pretty positive.
> I have had many discussions with her on the subject and while we don't agree on everything, we agree on most things and we respect each others goals in breeding as we both know the sacrifices that have been made along the way. Because of Debbie and MANY other good breeders, we have many excellent choices when it comes time to look for a new prospect.
> Ok, time for me to go train my dogs :-D
> 
> ps- I believe Cadence is out of Bexter, not Dexter David.


Well said about breeding! Yes, you are right Cadence is Bexter x Saida. Bexter is Dexter/Orly and the brother to Breeze, Bogan, Borly/Voodoo.. I guess it was another misstatement of his that I missed since he's on ignore! LOL 

Pixs of Bexter below. **not titled yet** proven producer of working dogs.


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Breeding 14 month old stud dogs is UNACCEPTABLE and you just ADMITTED to doing it on PURPOSE
> 
> This is my problem with the internet. You got Dipshit here, and then you have Maren, who thinks cause she took a course on genetics or two that she has a clue.
> 
> So let me ask the dipshit, If she likes the dog, but waits till the dog is older, what changed ??
> 
> Why do the Germans give hip ratings at a year ?? Are they unethical ??
> 
> How many litters have either of you produced ?? Maren at least has an excuse, because I cannot tell you how many times we have told her goofy ass about something, and she scolded us for being bad people and then of course it happened to her.
> 
> Remember the big blow up you had about ENS Maren ?? How you wouldn't get a dog from someone that DOES NOT DO IT ?? LOL Ya got took.
> 
> You guys gonna scold me because Soda was 17 months old when I bred her ?? Do you think the extra months are the KEY to good breeding ??
> 
> Until people realize that most retards complaining about a breeder and their ethics, or their breeding stock, or the hips, or the health, honestly have never bred a dog before, and is just repeating some propaganda they read somewhere else, this shit is gonna happen again and again.
> 
> By the way, I saw a free puppy sign when I was out there in California. Why don't the two of you go out there and protest that shit. You could hold hands and wave signs.
> 
> I am only on page 5 of this shit. Geez.


Ain't it sad! LOL BTW, Erika is 7 months old and will come in season soon...he can start another rumor! LOL No, I didn't say I was going to breed her that young! :-\":-\" Hey, but she'll definitely bite someone with or without a suit, her bite is full and hard! Glad no one got it on video. She's made a rep for herself for being mean.

Erika pix below out of the "Mystery-man" Dexter :lol::lol:


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Debbie Skinner said:


> Ain't it sad! LOL BTW, Erika is 7 months old and will come in season soon...he can start another rumor! LOL No, I didn't say I was going to breed her that young! :-\":-\" Hey, but she'll definitely bite someone with or without a suit, her bite is full and hard! Glad no one got it on video. She's made a rep for herself for being mean.
> 
> Erika pix below out of the "Mystery-man" Dexter :lol::lol:


Debbie,


My two year old Dobermann Flannchadh has a HD1 hip rating from the DV AND he just got his BH on Saturday. Let's do a Dobermann x Malinois litter and give Fellatio ano something to 
get excited about? LOL


----------



## susan tuck

David: I am not a Mali breeder, nor am I a Mali owner, so this might not matter to you, but I have met Debbie at trials a number of times and seen some of the really talented dogs that come out of Debbie's breedings, who were sound to boot. I think her breeding program speaks for itself. Also as has been mentioned, the SV rates hips at 12 months, as does FCI. Anyway, the wording is not misleading, OFA does not have a "normal" rating.


----------



## Christopher Jones

susan tuck said:


> Also as has been mentioned, the SV rates hips at 12 months, as does FCI.


As does Australia, New Zealand and the UK. 
If D'only has impressed Debbie that much where she decides she wants to breed him at 14 months I dont see a problem. If I had a 14 month old male that was everything I wanted in a dog, was an excellent puppy, never fell in a hole and was xrayed at 12 months to be graded good then I wouldnt have a problem breeding him.


----------



## David Feliciano

susan tuck said:


> David: I am not a Mali breeder, nor am I a Mali owner, so this might not matter to you, but I have met Debbie at trials a number of times and seen some of the really talented dogs that come out of Debbie's breedings, who were sound to boot. I think her breeding program speaks for itself. Also as has been mentioned, the SV rates hips at 12 months, as does FCI. Anyway, the wording is not misleading, OFA does not have a "normal" rating.


Susan, how well would this go over in the GSD world (your breed of choice)? just curious


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Thomas Barriano said:


> Debbie,
> 
> 
> My two year old Dobermann Flannchadh has a HD1 hip rating from the DV AND he just got his BH on Saturday. Let's do a Dobermann x Malinois litter and give Fellatio ano something to
> get excited about? LOL



Yes, Dobie + Malinois = Beauceron?? LOL:razz:


----------



## Edward Egan

Debbie Skinner said:


> It's been updated on my web page (the link on the ad) when I got the letter. Then I attached the letter to the website via a thumbnail some months back. I forgot about updating the ad to reflect this since all the puppies have been reserved since the first week. Very, very sorry for the confusion it has caused you.
> 
> Weren't you all worked up about the age of Bogan when Steve bought him from me too? What's with the date obsession?
> 
> Did you notice that Dexter was only 12 months when I used him to produce that litter and he had an OFA Prellm letter and Case # as well..or was that before you started probing? LOL Dexter has been OFA (officially) for years now. Prelim showed "Good" and OFA "Good". So it's been pretty predictable even on the large dogs.
> 
> http://www.pawsnclaws.us/dexter_ped.htm
> 
> I'm thinking that since Dexter was born in Belgium and then came to California and then went back to France to be titled and eventually comes back to California..that hmmm...I bet he produces better when he gets back here just from the trip across the pond.. What does everyone think?


I think dogs should have passports. This way, as their hanging out together at the next trial, they can whip out their passports and say stuff like;

(insert accent here) 

*"Here look, I spent my youth in Belgium, then took a long trip to Califonia to meet a fine dam, she was so HOT (get it) rrrruff, then off to the South of France to trial and nibble on some too die for berries, soon back to sunny Cali, for that dam is calling for me!"*

What was this tread about again, oh never mind, I sure it wasn't important. 8)


----------



## susan tuck

David Feliciano said:


> Susan, how well would this go over in the GSD world (your breed of choice)? just curious


With regards to hips & elbows, it goes over just fine in Europe where dogs hips are rated at 12 months of age. Incidently, RSV2000 allows for the breeding of GSDs at a minimum of 12 months old providing certain qualifications are met. These are considered "test breedings", very limited, but most importantly acknowledged and recognized by RSV2000.


----------



## susan tuck

Debbie Skinner said:


> Yes, Dobie + Malinois = Beauceron?? LOL:razz:


Beauceron light!!!!


----------



## David Feliciano

susan tuck said:


> With regards to hips & elbows, it goes over just fine in Europe where dogs hips are rated at 12 months of age. Incidently, RSV2000 allows for the breeding of GSDs at a minimum of 12 months old providing certain qualifications are met. These are considered "test breedings", very limited, but most importantly acknowledged and recognized by RSV2000.


I was referring to the use of a 14 month old stud dog. The same dog could probably have been bred at 8 months and produced comparable offspring to what he would produce at 3 years old. Where do we draw the line?


----------



## Carol Boche

David.....is this YOU????? 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tORXiP7VVy8

Amazing what you find on youtube when browsing for training vids....sure looks like you from the picture I saw when you posed with Jeff........where is your helmet??????


----------



## Michelle Reusser

David Feliciano said:


> I was referring to the use of a 14 month old stud dog. The same dog could probably have been bred at 8 months and produced comparable offspring to what he would produce at 3 years old. Where do we draw the line?


We draw the line at what we don't know. If you don't know the dogs, the lines, the background, the health issues, you don't go there. If you have enough info to tip the scales on the safe side, you go ahead. No breeder worth a shit wants to produce a train wreck litter. 

David I think your thread title is untruthfull. 14 month old STUD dog? Is she advertising him for stud to outside bitches? Or did she use him for a trial breeding on her own stock?


----------



## Konnie Hein

David Feliciano said:


> I was referring to the use of a 14 month old stud dog. The same dog could probably have been bred at 8 months and produced comparable offspring to what he would produce at 3 years old. Where do we draw the line?


Who are "we" to draw any lines? Who's to say what is ethical and what is not?


----------



## susan tuck

I would think because an 8 month old puppy is not as mature as a year old dog, and consequently the potential isn't as obvious, but again I can't answer that beyond an educated guess, because I'm not a breeder and don't pretend to be as knowledgeable as a breeder has to be. :lol:

Just so you know, I don't even listen to those who call themselves breeders just because they toss dogs together. I am talking about people who REALLY know what their doing.


----------



## Gerry Grimwood

I didn't read the whole thread, but after watching the videos of the Skinners dogs I wouldn't question their judgement about breeding who or when.


----------



## Steve Strom

David Feliciano said:


> Ask around and find out what happened last time somebody popped off at the mouth to me in dogsport


What happened David?


----------



## Gerry Grimwood

Steve Strom said:


> What happened David?


I think he blew the guy.


----------



## James Lechernich

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I think he blew the guy.


----------



## Christopher Smith

susan tuck said:


> Also as has been mentioned, the SV rates hips at 12 months, as does FCI.


Hi Susan,

They might get a hip rating but can they be bred without a breed test? And don't they still have to be 18 months old? 

I was not aware that the FCI required a hip rating do you have more information on that?


----------



## Steve Strom

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I think he blew the guy.


Oh, I didnt know he was Canadian.


----------



## Gerry Grimwood

Steve Strom said:


> Oh, I didnt know he was Canadian.


Not sure, but I'd guess David's Italian.


----------



## Don Turnipseed

People like David and Maren get off on eithics. I just love it when they decide to show everyone how it is done and do everything they think is right, get titles etc, just to find out there dog can't breed anything but culls when it is 5 years old. Then you will see ethics because they will breed them to everything anyway on a prayer.....keeping their fingers crossed. Seen it to many times.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Oh **** Grimwood, you are killing me.


----------



## Edward Egan

Edward Egan said:


> I think dogs should have passports. This way, as their hanging out together at the next trial, they can whip out their passports and say stuff like;
> 
> (insert accent here)
> 
> *"Here look, I spent my youth in Belgium, then took a long trip to Califonia to meet a fine dam, she was so HOT (get it) rrrruff, then off to the South of France to trial and nibble on some too die for berries, soon back to sunny Cali, for that dam is calling for me!"*
> 
> What was this tread about again, oh never mind, I sure it wasn't important. 8)


 
Dam, tough croud, I thought it was at least a little funny!


----------



## Mike Scheiber

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I think he blew the guy.


The spelling is a bit off but its easy to see ware the confusion may rear its head

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fellatio


----------



## James Lechernich

Edward Egan said:


> Dam, tough croud, I thought it was at least a little funny!


----------



## Joby Becker

If the MALE dog is not a slow maturer, and real strong at 14 months, why not breed it if you are familiar with the lines and he is a special dog?

I believe the breeding was done in-house anyways, so who gives a rat's-ass. Worse things happen every day.

I checked the website and do not see him advertised as a "stud" dog, I see that there was an in-house breeding done by an experienced breeder, call it a "test" breeding, happens all the time.

I checked the website and saw 12-15 recommended stud dogs and D'Only was not listed on there, like I said not an "advertised stud dog" a dog that was bred in-house for whatever reasons, who cares?

I wonder how early Carlos van Vos or some of the other KNPV type males have been bred, if he was only 4 yrs old and had sired "serious police dogs" already. I imagine before 2 yrs old....

again who gives a rat's ass?


----------



## mike suttle

Joby Becker said:


> I wonder how early Carlos van Vos or some of the other KNPV type males have been bred, if he was only 4 yrs old and had sired "serious police dogs" already. I imagine before 2 yrs old....
> 
> again who gives a rat's ass?


The first breeding that was done with Carlos that I am aware of was done when he was 16 months old. 
The first breeding with Arko was done when he was 13 months old.
Both of those examples produced very nice dogs in the first litters, and continue to do so. I am sure that if Debbie thinks D'only is a breeding quality dog, then he probably is. He will probably produce well for her. I have seen a few young dogs recently that I really think are breeding quality dogs, despite being young and unproven, as a breeder you just have to trust your gut feeling.


----------



## Christopher Jones

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I think he blew the guy.


:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


----------



## Christopher Jones

Neogaf?



James Lechernich said:


>


----------



## James Lechernich

Christopher Jones said:


> Neogaf?


Looked it up and still have no idea what you're asking.


----------



## David Feliciano

Steve Strom said:


> What happened David?


I pulled guard on him


----------



## Christopher Jones

David Feliciano said:


> I pulled guard on him


 So you were in missionary?


----------



## Christopher Jones

Its a gaming forum where they use the same pics and gifs in their posts.



James Lechernich said:


> Looked it up and still have no idea what you're asking.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Debbie Skinner said:


> I would never use a Malinois for breeding that went through a "nervy stage".
> 
> Some dogs are super at 12-14 months old and just keep getting better. Since I want to produce this type of dog, I would recommend using this type of dog in the breeding program...use the exception, early to show he's the exception and no weird stages of nerviness.
> 
> No, not a slippery slope. Just because we use a male at around 12-14 months, doesn't mean that we would use one younger. Yes, most important, you must know your bloodlines, know dogs and know what you are doing. Breeders and trainers must network and collectively provide information on the dogs to keep the breedings going in the right direction. Most importantly, you must be objective and critical of the dogs and know qualities and faults when they are in front of you regardless of the kennel name attached to the dog. If you don't then all the "fancy talk" about what you are trying to do is mute. The proof is in the results.
> 
> All my dogs tolerate people and other dogs, but then again I'm their boss and don't tolerate nonsense either. Me and my friends routinely hike and ride horses with an intact group of dogs, but that's because we are their pack leaders. Many times it's the owners not the dogs that are at fault when a dog matures and "takes over" doing what he wants to do. A strong dog will "take up the slack" and "take over" if the owner isn't strong enough to lead.
> 
> Just because you as a non-breeder think that some other breeding practice is more ideal, w/o proof, doesn't mean it's the way to go either. If you breed 20+ years dogs and show me how this works to produce consistent quality then I would consider you ideas more valid.
> 
> I bred these 2 because their temperaments compliment each other in that Cadence is more calm, laid back,with a very excellent hard bite, good retrieve, excellent jumping; both dogs very, very stable and confident, both dogs have excellent drives and both very intelligent, good with other animals, people, etc. D'Only has over the top bite drive and bite quality and is very, very fast and hard on the entry, very sound under distractions, excellent jumping and super hunt drive, handler hard, loves the fight...I really can't say enough about him as for me he's about perfect in what I want a malinois. Both are good size and he's about the best size for all around work for me..about 75lbs now. Both have heavy muscling and good structure, health clearances. Then there's the pedigrees and how they mess together. I love Saida and her siblings. She is a great producing female. She's a daughter of Zodt and I wanted to double on this side due to drives, character, handler hard, and all around tough, hard biting, **good dogs**. It's not novel to line-breed on Zodt..it's not my invention..been done in Europe with success. Now we wait and see how the puppies develop...I'll post videos just like I always do...I figured I'd wait until they turned 4 weeks old and are on the suit first! LOL
> 
> I get tired of the **breeder police** who don't breed and have absolutely no practical experience. You should probably go and tell AZ how to handle their illegal problems and also go and tell Honda and Toyota how to build better cars even if you've never done it before.
> 
> I'm always very, very upfront and if you ask a question, I'll be happy to answer. But, it's difficult for me to believe that you really want my answer of why I did this breeding when you preface it with how you think I'm doing wrong by the breed and how I should of done things differently.
> 
> But, still I gave you a few paragraphs of my time. But, I hope you can see how you come off as acting superior and your question seems sarcastic in it's tone. You have shown hostility in the past to breeders. Many vets actually seem to be anti-breeder in my experience as well.
> 
> I really put a lot of thought, research, TIME and $$$ into my dogs and everything that I do with them. They are my life and my passion and it's insulting to me and other serious breeders that you sit there as judge and jury regarding something you know nothing about. If you phrase things differently and make suggestions,or asked questions that you really wanted answered instead of the way you go about it, it would be better received.
> 
> The weather is great here and I'm spending most of my time outside with the dogs. I'll post more photos and videos soon and time will tell if I'm on the right track or not.
> 
> Debbie


I understand you were in a defensive mood because of David, but if you re-read my second post, I really am not coming off hostile or superior. I'm just being straight forward. 

In fact, I am not at all hostile to good breeders as a rule. I've tried to give some good guidance to numerous forum members who had questions both publicly and privately and I was about to help my herding instructor collect blood from her well-titled herding bitch for progesterone levels and drive them to the diagnostic lab for free, but she ended up sending her to be bred anyways (which was too bad since the breeding didn't take). One major component of my master's degree was in reproduction (bred at least a hundred mice litters as well as it being a major part of my research project) and I've done quite a significant bit of extracirricular additional education both "hands on" (insert inevitable joke here) and lecture hours in theriogenology of multiple species, including dogs (I've helped collect about 10 dogs, including my own which may or may never be used), llamas, alpacas (those are really funny to do paired mating with), goats (the first species I successfully AIed), and sheep. I was even going up to Chicago this spring to spend a few weeks to do an externship with a practitioner who does like 85% canine repro work (lots of semen collections, surgical AIs, side by side AIs, c-sections, etc) but that fell through at the last minute. :-( I also breed rats as pets, with the culls going to my snake. Plus the breeding soundness exams (I've mostly done bulls so far) and the collections done as part of our actual vet school cirriculum. 

And this is not personal to you at all either. I've been interested in your breeding program, particularly with your Beauceron, for several years now. I'm glad you answered, but I don't ever accept "I've been doing it this way for X number of years, so everyone needs to agree." :wink: Everyone patting each other on the back on what a good job they're doing and getting defensive if someone wonders why you did what you did isn't really going to encourage progress. Do what you've always done and you'll get what you always got. Like I said before, I don't think there's this enormous demand of working dog owners for Malinois in the States that a promising stud dog MUST be bred at 14 months, particularly when a dog if collected can have a 25+ year long breeding life with frozen semen. 

While you may call it the breeding police, I just think of it as having high standards, similar to the high standards that is required in protection dog sport. Ring sport is supposed to have really high criteria, right? So I am not sure why it's a bad thing to expect similar really strong, almost ruthless if you will, criteria for breeding if you are wanting those pups in those venues. *shrug*


----------



## James Lechernich

Christopher Jones said:


> Its a gaming forum where they use the same pics and gifs in their posts.


Still not speaking my language dude. I just use GIS and post the stuff that makes me laugh.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: I've tried to give some good guidance

Maren, what part of you don't have a clue are you struggling with ?? You are not a breeder, and are still in that early I know everything stage as evidenced by the dogs getting packed on and fighting, and getting a dog THEN going to Vet school.

Jeez, I can only imagine the ****ing ego on you when you graduate. Going to school doesn't make you a breeder. Produce something that doesn't suck repeat it for about 5 years and maybe MAYBE you can give "good guidence"

Until then, you know **** all and should listen and not repeat shit you read in a book. They were never breeders either. Get it ?? THEY NEVER WERE BREEDERS.

Good grief.


----------



## Joby Becker

I didn't see where Debbie ever said he HAD to be bred Maren. I saw her say she CHOSE to do the breeding because she has a plan for her potential future breedings, based on a timeline of HER choosing, since they are her dogs.

DEMAND for the pups most likely has nothing to do with it, I imagine her goals for her breeding program do, which includes a plan including more than just this one dog.

I wonder what some people might say if she stated she was going to keep the best 2 or 3 pups to raise for evaluation purposes and put down the rest? ](*,) That also happens quite often.


----------



## David Feliciano

Christopher Jones said:


> So you were in missionary?


I prefer crackhead control to mission control, but much of the fight was spent in chill dawg.


----------



## David Feliciano

The day Dexter returns to US soil, I will show up to the closest ring trial dressed in drag.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Would anyone notice ??


----------



## Timothy Stacy

David Feliciano said:


> I pulled guard on him


LMAO WOW Is that bad ass or what? Did you pin his arms back and give him some hip thrust too!


----------



## Gillian Schuler

The thread is interesting, to say the least, but this is hilarious:

The day Dexter returns to US soil, I will show up to the closest ring trial dressed in drag.

Would anyone notice ??


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Maren, having a personal passion for collection semen does not make you a breeder. Most breeders live a life time without ever doing it. 

Other than that, I don't see where it will help by me adding my two cents since everyone else has pretty much said it already. You are one slow learner Maren. I am glad to see you are on the right track in some respects and that you now actually take your dog out and work him instead of talk about how you dont have time but know all there is to know about that too. Your getting there.


----------



## James Lechernich

Don Turnipseed said:


> Maren, having* a personal passion for collection semen* does not make you a breeder.

















*puts thread in reverse*


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Maren Bell Jones said:


> .....One major component of my master's degree was in reproduction (bred at least a hundred mice litters as well as it being a major part of my research project) and I've done quite a significant bit of extracirricular additional education both "hands on" (insert inevitable joke here) and lecture hours in theriogenology of multiple species, including dogs (I've helped collect about 10 dogs, including my own which may or may never be used), llamas, alpacas (those are really funny to do paired mating with), goats (the first species I successfully AIed), and sheep. I was even going up to Chicago this spring to spend a few weeks to do an externship with a practitioner who does like 85% canine repro work (lots of semen collections, surgical AIs, side by side AIs, c-sections, etc) but that fell through at the last minute. :-( I also breed rats as pets, with the culls going to my snake. Plus the breeding soundness exams (I've mostly done bulls so far) and the collections done as part of our actual vet school cirriculum....
> ....


10 dogs collected?? That's not that many.. My vet does more than that each week.. I've done that many myself! LOL

On a tangent, but what you mentioned in your post made me think that many times it's hard for breeders to find good breeder vets and especially hard to find good repro vets that are also breeders. I've been working with one for several years in San Diego who is excellent in several ways. She's a reproduction specialist (30 years experience) with a complete facility for collection, storing, surgical implant, etc at her ranch. Also, she is a long time breeder of collies (30+ years) specializing in merles and eliminating the health problems in her line of merles through selective line-breeding, inbreeding coefficients, etc. (so she's an experienced breeder), PLUS she studied in France at Maison Al'Forte (sp?), the large vet facility and reproduction center in Paris so she speaks fluent French. This is especially helpful with arranging shipping of semen back and forth. http://www.sharonvanderlip.com 

I raised commercial whites (NZW-x Rabbits) for years for our dogs and our consumption, but it has NOTHING to do with breeding dogs or cats except that rabbits are food for them. Raising of rats and rabbits probably have some similarities, but not the same either since my goal was meat production and not pets. Selecting and breeding my Siamese doesn't have much to do with breeding working dogs either. 

The only things related is that you must be ruthlessly honest when evaluating and have goals, know the bloodlines, practice good animal husbandry. But, the selection and evaluation process is very, very different. 

I would never go to one of my long time breeder-friends of Siamese and ask for breeding advice on my Malinois or Beaucerons. It has nothing to do with being defensive or not open to advice. It's just that cat breeders are not experts in working dogs. I wouldn't ask my friend that breeds Staffie Bulls either. I would go to the most knowledgeable, experienced, successful experts I can find. 

BTW, how old are you Maren? I'm 45 years old. I'm just curious as it gives me perspective. 

Taking a public poll is a waste of time and a way to lose one's way.


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Joby Becker said:


> I didn't see where Debbie ever said he HAD to be bred Maren. I saw her say she CHOSE to do the breeding because she has a plan for her potential future breedings, based on a timeline of HER choosing, since they are her dogs.
> 
> DEMAND for the pups most likely has nothing to do with it, I imagine her goals for her breeding program do, which includes a plan including more than just this one dog.
> 
> I wonder what some people might say if she stated she was going to keep the best 2 or 3 pups to raise for evaluation purposes and put down the rest? ](*,) That also happens quite often.


EXACT! I breed for what I want and not for a Market/Demand. Right again, I have 10 Recommended Malinios Stud dogs on my page: http://www.pawsnclaws.us/malmales.htm and D'Only is not one of them. Most are not my dogs. 

Thank you Jody for reading and "comprehending" my words on the web page! O

The topic of culling/placing would be for another thread or I fear this one will hit 100 pages before long! ](*,)


----------



## James Lechernich

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I've done quite a significant bit of extracirricular additional education both "hands on" **(insert inevitable joke here)** and lecture hours in theriogenology of multiple species, including dogs (I've helped collect about 10 dogs, including my own which may or may never be used), llamas, alpacas (those are really funny to do paired mating with), goats (the first species I successfully AIed), and sheep. I was even going up to Chicago this spring to spend a few weeks to do an externship with a practitioner who does like 85% canine repro work (lots of* semen collections*, surgical AIs, side by side AIs, c-sections, etc) but that fell through at the last minute. :-( I also breed rats as pets, with the culls going to my snake. Plus the breeding soundness exams (*I've mostly done bulls so far*) and the collections done as part of our actual vet school cirriculum.












Is this the view you're used to?


----------



## tracey schneider

I have no idea why I am chiming in on this……lol…….. BUT I find no ethical or moral issue with breeding a 14 month old male from the family of dogs the “breeder” is very knowledgeable about through a long term history and dedication to a well thought out breeding program, if they wanted to close the circle and breed said young dog to an older bitch whose days are numbered as far as breedings go. Now my opinions definitely change with the definition of “breeder”, “breeding program” and “knowledge” :twisted: …. JMO…. And I think that is really the key to it all….. Its just MY opinion……… I have no right to force it upon anyone else [-(.

t


----------



## David Feliciano

D'only was an awfully expensive puppy to produce. I actually heard Debbie complaining about this and proclaiming that is the reason she kept the dog rather than selling it!!!

She didn't waste anytime recouping that investment (Stud fee for Master and AI). Funny how she isn't using Master anymore


----------



## Tim Bartlett

Personally, after reading all of these posts, I think Debbie has a stalker on her hands............. :-k


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Up to now it's been an interesting thread with unwelcome overtures. I grew up in Europe and really never questioned the "pedigree vs none". We always had pedigreed dogs, Greyhound, Airedales and then Jack Russells after my parents bought me a Cocker Spaniel with pedigree but even then I knew he was a "failure".

The Jack Russell we had was from the Kennels that supplied the Cheshire Hunt with dogs and when we took him back to show how he was doing, the breeder said he'd sold the wrong dog. With my parents he was just a pet. He even put a Great Dane in fear. And the cats nearby heard him coming!

*What I will say is, to be a breeder you have to be born a breeder.*

Breeding like you do in the USA for Malinois, etc. is frowned upon here, but after reading this thread, I realise that, as with the JRT, this can work. After the JRT joined the FCI, there were tons of useless dogs around. There still are.

Christine Stückelberger "Dressurreiterin" started off with running JRTs out on her rides. Now every "good" rider has a JRT running with the horse. I haven't seen one JRT that could compare with our "Nick". He'd have attacked an elephant if need be. Not so easy to control of course!!!


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Tim Bartlett said:


> Personally, after reading all of these posts, I think Debbie has a stalker on her hands............. :-k


Tim

I think you're right. At least he's leaving Jeff alone now


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Jesus Skinner, this guy is a tard. You sure you want him as a stalker ??

He might pull guard on you, or go "ring 10" on D'only.


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Future litter announcement ** thanks for the publicity ** :grin::grin:

I recently confirmed this arranged breeding to use Master. Since it's a topic of discussion now too, I updated the future litter plans on the site. It's posted on my Puppy Site now: http://www.pawsnclaws.us/malpups.htm

*SIRE: **  Master de Alphaville Bohemia,* IPO III Finalist, IPO 3 výborný 1, C.W.C., BOS, BOB, Qualifikationspruefung Trinec - 1. Platz mit 289 Punkte, CACT, fin. CZ Meisterschaft IPO 2008. See Videos. *DAM: Bambi des Ombres Valeureux, *OFA "Excellent", Dominant, Substantial Female, with strong character and hard bite and great drives. Bambi is the sibling of Blitz, Drogo, Diesel..Great Litter! *WHEN:*  Breeding Planned for October 2010.


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Jesus Skinner, this guy is a tard. You sure you want him as a stalker ??
> 
> He might pull guard on you, or go "ring 10" on D'only.


Don't want it. Didn't ask for it. But, if he comes around I'll sure end it.


----------



## Carol Boche

Debbie Skinner said:


> Don't want it. Didn't ask for it. But, if he comes around I'll sure end it.


=D>=D>:mrgreen::mrgreen:

I am pretty sure you could take him without a dog even.....LOL


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Yeah, but what if he PULLS GUARD on you ?? Scary !


----------



## Carol Boche

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Yeah, but what if he PULLS GUARD on you ?? Scary !


LMAO....I can just hear you saying this and it cracked me up....between this and the new handler thread, I am too busy laughing to do payroll......oooops

Oh yeah.....don't want to see that guard.......:-o:-o:-o:mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen:


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Yeah, but what if he PULLS GUARD on you ?? Scary !


Oh yeah his base is so solid in the guard position especially when he's wearing his affliction fighter jeans LMAO. Ultimate Fighter wanna be and working dog handler wanna be. I agree with Tim B,


Tim Bartlett said:


> Personally, after reading all of these posts, I think Debbie has a stalker on her hands............. :-k


Yeah he is a really creepy dude in his writings and his photos. I think Anna K. was really sickened by him too!


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

who is anna k ??


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Anna Kasho! You know the one he asked to marry him or am I dreaming that up. Could of swore I read a post from David in which he asked Anna to marry him! It was in with those post around the time he met you at the Nationals. It might be hard to find since he put up 20 topics at the same time!


----------



## Guest

Timothy Stacy said:


> Anna Kasho! You know the one he asked to marry him or am I dreaming that up. Could of swore I read a post from David in which he asked Anna to marry him! It was in with those post around the time he met you at the Nationals. It might be hard to find since he put up 20 topics at the same time!


 
http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f22/boganator-hell-back-pic-heavy-14793/

\\/


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

She the one with *** mod edit *** the weird affectation for lots of dogs that can't do shit ??


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> She the one with ---- the weird affectation for lots of dogs that can't do shit ??


You can always count on Jeff to be swave and de boner


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Jody Butler said:


> http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f22/boganator-hell-back-pic-heavy-14793/
> 
> \\/


Love her response on page 4


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Debbie Skinner said:


> 10 dogs collected?? That's not that many.. My vet does more than that each week.. I've done that many myself! LOL
> 
> On a tangent, but what you mentioned in your post made me think that many times it's hard for breeders to find good breeder vets and especially hard to find good repro vets that are also breeders. I've been working with one for several years in San Diego who is excellent in several ways. She's a reproduction specialist (30 years experience) with a complete facility for collection, storing, surgical implant, etc at her ranch. Also, she is a long time breeder of collies (30+ years) specializing in merles and eliminating the health problems in her line of merles through selective line-breeding, inbreeding coefficients, etc. (so she's an experienced breeder), PLUS she studied in France at Maison Al'Forte (sp?), the large vet facility and reproduction center in Paris so she speaks fluent French. This is especially helpful with arranging shipping of semen back and forth. http://www.sharonvanderlip.com
> 
> I raised commercial whites (NZW-x Rabbits) for years for our dogs and our consumption, but it has NOTHING to do with breeding dogs or cats except that rabbits are food for them. Raising of rats and rabbits probably have some similarities, but not the same either since my goal was meat production and not pets. Selecting and breeding my Siamese doesn't have much to do with breeding working dogs either.
> 
> The only things related is that you must be ruthlessly honest when evaluating and have goals, know the bloodlines, practice good animal husbandry. But, the selection and evaluation process is very, very different.
> 
> I would never go to one of my long time breeder-friends of Siamese and ask for breeding advice on my Malinois or Beaucerons. It has nothing to do with being defensive or not open to advice. It's just that cat breeders are not experts in working dogs. I wouldn't ask my friend that breeds Staffie Bulls either. I would go to the most knowledgeable, experienced, successful experts I can find.
> 
> BTW, how old are you Maren? I'm 45 years old. I'm just curious as it gives me perspective.
> 
> Taking a public poll is a waste of time and a way to lose one's way.



Well, like I said, I wanted to go up to Chicago and work with the vet from Chicago who does a ton of work, but timing didn't work out.  And I haven't had my official theriogenology rotation yet, so I'll get some more practice locally. Probably if I was more into equine, I would have done more of that by now as the equine people are big into it more so than the dog people. Oh well, I like horses, but I don't really want to be a horse vet. ;-) And heck, I was in San Diego for Comic Con last July and even looking for a vet to work with for a few days while I was on vacation. Too bad I didn't know...

Anyways, you bring up Staffies and the demand from your puppy buyers. So if I was in the market for a Staffie as a therapy dog (which may be my next dog when my current therapy dog dies), I'd be looking for a dog neutral to dog social dog. Staffies, APBTs, AmStaffs, etc are pretty notorious for being dog social and friendly when they are pups and young adolescents, but can get very dog aggro once they get to be 18-36 months of age and mature. 

So while asking a breeder about their dogs with the goal of a neutral to social dog in mind which is necessary to pass the temperament/certification tests and to not be obnoxious in public, if a breeder with a 14 month old goof ball male said "oh yeah, he LOVES other dogs!" but then he ended up being pretty high up there on the dog aggressiveness scale another 12-24 months down the road, I'd feel like I was not being shown the full picture of the dog's temperament. While training can help, it's just hard pushing a boulder up hill genetically. A pedigree and knowledge of the lines is definitely very, very important and is part of that picture (along with health tests, titling if applicable, etc), but I just don't feel like you're getting the full picture without seeing a mature dog. I'm not the kind of person who buys a puppy every other year and sells them if they don't pan out, so when I am in the market for a pup maybe every 5-10 years, as a puppy buyer who wants to make sure all the ducks are in a row, seeing that full picture is going to be critical for me. Otherwise, I'd just get a nice adult rescue, you know? 

More on my rats on another thread...


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Well, like I said, I wanted to go up to Chicago and work with the vet from Chicago who does a ton of work, but timing didn't work out.  And I haven't had my official theriogenology rotation yet, so I'll get some more practice locally. Probably if I was more into equine, I would have done more of that by now as the equine people are big into it more so than the dog people. Oh well, I like horses, but I don't really want to be a horse vet. ;-) And heck, I was in San Diego for Comic Con last July and even looking for a vet to work with for a few days while I was on vacation. Too bad I didn't know...
> 
> Anyways, you bring up Staffies and the demand from your puppy buyers. So if I was in the market for a Staffie as a therapy dog (which may be my next dog when my current therapy dog dies), I'd be looking for a dog neutral to dog social dog. Staffies, APBTs, AmStaffs, etc are pretty notorious for being dog social and friendly when they are pups and young adolescents, but can get very dog aggro once they get to be 18-36 months of age and mature.
> 
> So while asking a breeder about their dogs with the goal of a neutral to social dog in mind which is necessary to pass the temperament/certification tests and to not be obnoxious in public, if a breeder with a 14 month old goof ball male said "oh yeah, he LOVES other dogs!" but then he ended up being pretty high up there on the dog aggressiveness scale another 12-24 months down the road, I'd feel like I was not being shown the full picture of the dog's temperament. While training can help, it's just hard pushing a boulder up hill genetically. A pedigree and knowledge of the lines is definitely very, very important and is part of that picture (along with health tests, titling if applicable, etc), but I just don't feel like you're getting the full picture without seeing a mature dog. I'm not the kind of person who buys a puppy every other year and sells them if they don't pan out, so when I am in the market for a pup maybe every 5-10 years, as a puppy buyer who wants to make sure all the ducks are in a row, seeing that full picture is going to be critical for me. Otherwise, I'd just get a nice adult rescue, you know?
> 
> More on my rats on another thread...


Are you referring to Pat Meiser in Chicago or someone else?


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## Maren Bell Jones

Yep, she was the one. She was getting only a very small number of appointments during the time frame I could have come up, so timing just didn't work. Have you had experience with her (feel free to PM me if you like)? She said back in January she was actually thinking of moving down to Missouri at some point, but she wasn't sure how much demand there'd be. Which I can understand, since I haven't observed a collection or AI from a dog at any of the practices I've been at other than working with her when she comes down for AI clinics and seminars for the show and sport people around here. Breeding soundess exams, yes, but not other than that in dogs.


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## David Feliciano

Debbie Skinner said:


> Don't want it. Didn't ask for it. But, if he comes around I'll sure end it.












Debbie, You aren't going to do shit. I'll see you at the next ring trial spectating and pontificating like you always are. On the other hand, I do not expect to see you EVER walking center line again


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## David Feliciano

Timothy Stacy said:


> Oh yeah his base is so solid in the guard position especially when he's wearing his affliction fighter jeans LMAO. Ultimate Fighter wanna be and working dog handler wanna be. I agree with Tim B,
> 
> Yeah he is a really creepy dude in his writings and his photos. I think Anna K. was really sickened by him too!


I see you remember the thread about my new affliction dragon jeans! They are awesome.


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## Thomas Barriano

David Feliciano said:


> Debbie, You aren't going to do shit. I'll see you at the next ring trial spectating and pontificating like you always are. On the other hand, I do not expect to see you EVER walking center line again



Is that your picture or how you wish you looked?


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## Debbie Skinner

Maren Bell Jones said:


> ...Anyways, you bring up Staffies and the demand from your puppy buyers. ...


No and no. 

I mentioned a friend breeds Staffie Bulls (very different than Staffies) and I never mentioned demand and puppy buyers. BTW, she just did an A.I. from a male in Ireland and the puppy buyers will never meet the sire. She met the male. So either the puppy buyers trust her knowledge or don't get a puppy I guess.


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## Debbie Skinner

What will be his next angle of attack..hmm..so far D'Only, Dexter, Ethics, Competing..big obsession with dates... Oh, but he was hoping for an intelligent conversation...yeah, right..

I've got a TON of hits on my malinois pages. www.pawsnclaws.us/malinoisindex.htm 

Maybe start attacking the Beaucerons or my Siamese cats..Please don't leave out my pet boarding as I could use the business there since CA is in a recession! LOL

Beaucerons: www.pawsnclaws.us/beauceindex.htm 

Siamese cats: www.pawsnclaws.us/shadows.htm

Pet Boarding: www.pawsnclaws.us/kennelindex.htm We specialize in taking Pitbulls and Pit-crosses since most boarding kennels won't (sad to say). With people losing homes here in CA and then landlords not wanting to rent to pitbull owners, we are doing our part by giving the owners a rescue rate of $10/day for their dogs.

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


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## David Feliciano

Debbie Skinner said:


> What will be his next angle of attack..hmm..so far D'Only, Dexter, Ethics, Competing..big obsession with dates
> :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Can you imagine this guy trying to get his next pup ??


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## Timothy Stacy

He strikes me as one of those annoying people that can't keep his trap shut and got his ass kicked for opening that big mouth too many times! Also somebody who just doesn't fit in anywhere because he's so irritating to be around. David try this site if you haven't already been booted from there http://friendfinder.com/ Just one of those guys!


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## Gerry Grimwood

David Feliciano said:


> Debbie, You aren't going to do shit. I'll see you at the next ring trial spectating and pontificating like you always are. On the other hand, I do not expect to see you EVER walking center line again


*********** :razz:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9h8peFQXvDg


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## Gillian Schuler

There's also a good book:

"HOW TO MAKE FRIENDS AND INFLUENCE PEOPLE"


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## James Lechernich

Gillian Schuler said:


> There's also a good book:
> 
> "HOW TO MAKE FRIENDS AND INFLUENCE PEOPLE"












For the win!


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## maggie fraser

Gerry Grimwood said:


> *********** :razz:
> quote]
> 
> Is that the same as a Shirtlifter :razz:


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## James Lechernich

maggie fraser said:


> Is that the same as a Shirtlifter :razz:


 
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=shirtlifter :-o










Not at all what I was imagining... 

























Work safe sike!!


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## Connie Sutherland

Gerry Grimwood said:


> *********** :razz:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9h8peFQXvDg



WTH?

The PMs and emails to the mods (and NOT from the target, either) weren't exaggerating. Time to knock off this middle-school-playground and porn-site stuff.


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