# Who's doing raw diet and how's it going?



## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

This looks intriguing. I don't mind the prep work. Not sure how dogs get carbs. Seems to be heavily protein, no car diet.

Any thoughts or sources of info?

Thanks


----------



## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

I was doing it with chicken backs/necks/livers/gizzards/quarters in Orlando at about $0.18/lb + $1.75/lb for ground turkey. Then I moved and backs/necks are pretty impossible to come by in large and regular quantities, I didn't have patience to hack up full chickens so my dogs went to Natures Variety Raw Instinct kibble, I am contemplating switching to Orijen kibble. When I move back to Florida I'll probably switch back to raw, my dogs did well on that, prep work was about 2 hours every 6 weeks once I had my lil production line set up... plus time spent driving accross town to the meat market, they usually had everything waiting for me in a shopping cart so that was easy, just time consuming.


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Not feeding raw right now (new baby, nursing strike, lots of crying, little sleep...3 dogs to train) but will be going back to raw.

Dogs nave no nutritional requirement for carbs.

It takes me 1 minute per dog (or cat) for prep and cleanup (not including getting the bowls back and washing them). Time me! :lol: I worked at a kennel that feeds raw and have fed my dogs and cat raw for going on 2 years. 1 dog or 30 dogs - figure 1 minute per dog for prep and cleanup. Usually I don't use bowls. 1 dog eats in a plastic crate, the slow one eats outside and the third catches his food when it's tossed. 

My food cost is about $0.55 per pound. There's a butcher about a mile from me where I order cases of stuff from (and get free stuff too).

There's so much info out there it's hard to even list it. Maybe you can write your specific questions?


----------



## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Anne how do you prep at 1 minute per dog? How much do you buy at a time and how do you store it? I tried 6 weeks of food at a time, if I do it on a day to day basis the meat gets pretty disgusting sitting in the fridge for a month unless I buy small quantities at a time, which means frequent trips to the store which is even more annoying to me. It would take me 1 minute per dog too if the meat stayed infinitely fresh in the fridge. I know dogs can eat spoiled meat, I just don't much care for handling it and its still weird to me to give it to my dogs.


----------



## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

I'm really glad I switched to raw. Its cheaper for me to feed when compared to the premium kibble we were feeding and my dogs teeth have never been cleaner. Feeding raw has saved me hundreds of dollars in teeth cleaning already. It also doesn't take that much more time for me to put together than kibble. We've developed a really good system here at my house for meal times.

If you search this site, you'll find quite a bit of good information on feeding raw. 

Oh, and of course it is a diet heavy on protein. That's what our dogs evolved eating after all, isn't it? I've never seen a wolf eating a loaf of bread, that's for sure


----------



## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> Anne how do you prep at 1 minute per dog? How much do you buy at a time and how do you store it? I tried 6 weeks of food at a time, if I do it on a day to day basis the meat gets pretty disgusting sitting in the fridge for a month unless I buy small quantities at a time, which means frequent trips to the store which is even more annoying to me. It would take me 1 minute per dog too if the meat stayed infinitely fresh in the fridge. I know dogs can eat spoiled meat, I just don't much care for handling it and its still weird to me to give it to my dogs.


Mike - I know this question was for Anne, but what we do is buy around 100 or so pounds at a time. We put it all into disposable tupperware containers (that we re-use for this purpose too) and stick it in the freezer. We have a large, upright freezer that is pretty much just for the dogs. I put enough in each container to feed all the dogs at one meal time. Each meal time I also put a frozen container on the counter to defrost for the next meal. It sounds like a lot of extra work, but it really isn't. 

I don't like to give spoiled meat either. Its stinky and once you get a whiff of it, the smell stays with you all day :-& .


----------



## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

I am feeding 15 dogs and use mostly bone in ground raw as the basis of their diet but use RMB's and bones a few times a week for their teeth. I have three freezers and usually order about 20(40 lb) blocks at a time. The blocks are divided into 10 lb sections. I only thaw out one days ration at a time and have got the rest down to a routine so it doesn't take long to get the feed ready - 10 mins tops, and that incudes going to the door and telling everyone to pipe down a couple of times......

I also get a fair bit of deer meat in the fall and some beaver carcass in the winter and the odd cow or calf from my farmer friend and some free stuff from my butcher. Whole cows are big time work but free is free...and I am pretty good with an axe and saw.


My food is restricted to the fridge and the little freezer above it - :smile: as my place has completely gone to the dogs....


----------



## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Great answers. So there's a variety of meat being fed. Beef, chicken and whatever else. 

http://rawfed.com/myths/carbs.html good article on raw diet as it relates to carbs. same argument for Atkins diet

http://rawfeddogs.net/ another good site

http://rawlearning.com/ another


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

30 dogs uses about 400lb of meat per week and fills 2 chest freezers and 2 fridges. The meat can be easiest to store in the orginal cases and in about 3 gallon storage tubs. It works out to thawing a 40# case of the base meat every day and thawing the case of variety meat 2 - 3 times per week.

So - en masse:

Lay out bowls in rows. Grab tub of base meat (like leg quarters) Put 1 leg quarter in each bowl. Cut a couple in half for the dogs that get more. Grab tub of variety meat, toss each dog it's portion - like 1/2 c per dog. Add supplements (salmon oil, pumpkin, canned veggies, vitamin powders, raw egg. etc) - each dog is different. Stack bowls and put in fridge to feed next day. Wipe counter and put away any leftovers.

At home, I toss a 10# bag in a tray in my fridge to thaw. I toss them their supplemet which they eat like candy. I stab whatever meat in thawed with a fork and toss it in a dish, crate or directly into the dog's mouth. The dogs are very good at cleaning their own crate or dish and I sanitize my kitchen floor frequently. 

I have a chest freezer for dog meat and I put a tray in the bottom shelf of my fridge.

Mike - ask the butcher for 10# bags or (joy of joys) thaw a case in the bathtub and divide it up into containers or bags. It's a very quick job. With 3 dogs, I use up 10# in about 3-4 days (and over feed a bit if I need to use up the meat)and fast my dogs on the following day while the next bag is thawing out in the fridge.

A way to speed prep :grin: (and I don't really recommend it) when I was on complete bedrest, there were a couple of times I was on my own to feed my dogs and had to get it done without sending myself to the hospital (5 min on my feet would put me in the hospital with premature labor). I grabbed the bag of meat and dumped it out on the back step (in the dog's fenced yard). Thank goodness for good pack order. I couldn't supervise and there was not a problem. Like I said... not recomended. :lol:


----------



## Christen Adkins (Nov 27, 2006)

I feed prey model style raw. Doesn't take a lot of prep work. 

5-10% organs (1/2 is liver)

10-15% edible bones

80-85% muscle meat (and the rest of the animal)

I feed whole chicken, pork, whole rabbits, venison, wild hog (from a known source), fish (certain types), beef, eggs and whatever else I can find. Salmon oil is the only supplement I use on a regular basis.


----------



## Melissa Hoyer (Aug 28, 2006)

I feed raw to two GSDs. My older female has EPI and cannot eat kibble - she literally starves because her body cannot digest it. Raw has been the answer to a long search of making her as healthy as possible. 

Both of my dogs are shiny and healthy...I love feeding raw, because every time I put the bowl down for them, I know I'm doing the best I can 

I like these sites for more info:

www.rawdogranch.com
www.njboxers.com
www.dogaware.com
www.b-naturals.com (get my supplements here)

Also enjoy the yahoo group - K9 Nutrition...

It's really quite easy to feed raw...takes me about 10 minutes in the evening to do my RMBs (which I cut up into smallish pieces) and less than a minute to do the muscle meat in the a.m.

Hope you make the jump! Your dogs will love you!


----------



## andrew sanderson (Jul 11, 2007)

I moved to raw about 6 months ago and tried local butchers but they were unable to help.
I get my food delivered every two weeks from http://www.landywoods.co.uk/ so the food is in managable bags when it arrives - probably more expensive but they take a lot of the prep work away.

I feed mainly whole chicken carcases and chicken wings, along with tripe, organ meat, lamb ribs and a mixed meat/veg mince. I then throw in fish and a whole egg once a week.

Since moving to raw I have noticed that the dogs are a lot more settled. 


Andrew


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Ted White said:


> Great answers. So there's a variety of meat being fed. Beef, chicken and whatever else.



A lot of raw feeders start with poultry or rabbit so they can get a clear idea of what the calcium-phosphorous ratio in the whole prey looks like (the bone-to-meat ratio), then branch out with variety.


----------



## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

I'd like to copy some existing plan. Assuming there's no unusual dietary need in my pup, is there a plan out there that I could model? Portion size, food rotation schedule, etc?


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Ted White said:


> I'd like to copy some existing plan. Assuming there's no unusual dietary need in my pup, is there a plan out there that I could model? Portion size, food rotation schedule, etc?



Yes indeed, there is an excellent sample plan.

http://www.leerburg.com/diet2.htm

Scroll down; you'll see that there are TWO sample weeks here, not just one.

The second one fits chicken backs into the menu, and if you can get 'em, they are a terrific, cheap, cartilage-y and digestible new food for the dog who is switching. If they are meaty backs, they are also nicely representative of the meat-bone ratio of the whole animal.

Either one of these is a great and balanced diet, and good to familiarize yourself with to get a solid idea of what the bone-to-meat ratio looks like.

Where it says "Omega 3," it means fish oil.

That's the important supplement, IMHO, and you need to give Vitamin E when you give any oil supplement (dogs use the E in processing oils).

Edit: Forgot to mention that there's a 20-pound puppy model, too:
http://leerburg.com/feedpups.htm


----------



## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Gee Connie, You are awfully helpful. Thanks so much!


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Ted White said:


> Gee Connie, You are awfully helpful. Thanks so much!


You are 100% welcome.

I've been studying canine nutrition and allergies for a few years now, and there's nothing I like better than to help people switch their dogs to fresh food. :>)


----------



## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

I see that Ed prescribes a lot of supplements. I take a lot myself, so I'm into them, but do you use so many for your dogs? I see he has a nice menu for new pups, which is what I'm looking at in Sept.

http://leerburg.com/feedpups.htm


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Ted White said:


> I see that Ed prescribes a lot of supplements. I take a lot myself, so I'm into them, but do you use so many for your dogs? I see he has a nice menu for new pups, which is what I'm looking at in Sept.
> 
> http://leerburg.com/feedpups.htm


They use kelp, C, and fish oil with E.

I do give kelp, but I'm really careful because these days a of of kelp is loaded with arsenic and other heavy metals. So I get tested "sea vegetables." 

I don't give C to mine. Dogs make their own, unlike humans, BUT I have read a lot about using C for certain health challenges, and if I didn't feed some produce (I do) or if my dog(s) had one of the health issues that C is used for, I would.

I don't think of sea vegetables as a supplement, really; I buy the actual green plants, so I guess I think of them as produce. I give probiotics. too, but in the form of plan live-culture yogurt.

So my dogs' supplements are fish oil and E, and the senior with OA gets glucosamine, etc.


----------



## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Yogurt is a great idea. Thanks for the clarification on the E and fish oil. Have you looked at Flax seed oil instead of fish oil? Fish oil has Omega 3 and 6, but Flax also has 9. That's what I take. Also, the Flax is not able to have mercury, lead, etc that can be in Fish oil...the reason I switched.

How much Yogurt do you feed? Maybe that's in Ed's menu plan... I'll check

Thanks again,


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Long-chain Omega 3 EFAs (the fish oil) are a "fix-it" for the modern lack of Omega 3s in the meat and fat of the animals the dogs eat.

They used to get meat that had Omega 3s stored in the fat and organs (from pasture animals), but now grain-fed meats have altered that. Poultry, for example, is now very heavy in Omega 6s, another EFA, which throws off the maybe 1-to-1 or 2-to-1 6-to-3 ratio that dogs (and humans) ate very recently, from a nutritional anthropology POV.


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Ted White said:


> Yogurt is a great idea. Thanks for the clarification on the E and fish oil. Have you looked at Flax seed oil instead of fish oil? Fish oil has Omega 3 and 6, but Flax also has 9. That's what I take. Also, the Flax is not able to have mercury, lead, etc that can be in Fish oil...the reason I switched.
> 
> How much Yogurt do you feed? Maybe that's in Ed's menu plan... I'll check
> 
> Thanks again,


Flax is a good source of ALA. But dogs cannot make long-chain Omega 3s (DHA, EPA) from ALA the way humans can. Even humans have only a 5-15% conversion rate, in fact.

Flax is a good thing, IMO, but in no way substitutes for fish oil, especially for dogs. And some dogs (not many) are allergic to flax.

THere's a recent detailed thread here about flax v. fish oil.

I give more yogurt than I used to, since I read a new book about probiotics. I've been giving one with 8 live cultures, about 1/3 cup a day to the big dog and half of that to the smaller one.


----------



## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

http://www.mind1st.co.uk/Flax_Seed_Oil_v_Fish_Oil.asp

Confirms what you're saying. Did you have the link available to the article you mentioned in your last post?

Also, have you looked at the Dannon Activia?


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

P.S.

Looking for balanced 3-6-9 in an oil is a mistake, IMHO.

There is almost no modern diet (at least in this country) that isn't very heavy in 6s. 

The idea of balance between the inflammation-triggering fats and the inflammation-suppressing fats (6s and 3s) is a balance between the inflammation needed as the basic healing mechanism, the rushing of chemicals from the body’s white blood cells, released to protect tissue that's wounded or under attack (what we see as pain, swelling, redness, tenderness), and the suppression of inflammation that has gone awry and passed the point of healing to reach the point of actually contributing to disease (diabetes, coronary heart disease, OA, etc., etc.).

A diet super-rich in 6s needs 3s to get closer to that balance..... not more 6s AND more 3s.


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Ted White said:


> Also, have you looked at the Dannon Activia?


I believe that's one culture* only, plus maybe sugar and flavorings.....


*Bifidobacterium animalis DN-173 010, which they call Bifidus Regularis. Cute.


----------



## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

What are you using for a broader balanced yogurt culture?


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Ted White said:


> What are you using for a broader balanced yogurt culture?


I'm buying (not making) yogurt.

I've been buying Cascade, with 8 living cultures, but I have to email them for numbers. I want the number of "surviving after processing."

As Mike Armstrong (a member here) and I learned in a book he recommended, it appears so far (and this is fast-moving research) that a good goal is to get as many living "bugs" from as many strains as possible.


----------



## Melissa Hoyer (Aug 28, 2006)

Ted - realizing you are in Michigan like I am...

Consider checking out www.taylorpondfarms.com - they have some excellent products. I order some of their ground mixes and really like the convenience of them. It might be a good way for you to ease into raw feeding - it allows me to feed a little more variety for my dogs, especially my GSD with EPI who does a little bit better with ground RMBs.

The only problem is their delivery...their business has grown so much that they are struggling to keep up, so the food sometimes comes a little later than usually planned. But then it's only ten dollars to have the food delivered right to your door, well worth it...


----------



## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Hi Melissa,

How's it going? Does Taylor Farms do ground meat? Still raw?

I'm pretty sold on this whole raw thing.

Are you in the Detroit area? Please pardon me if we've talked about clubs already...

Thanks!


----------



## Pauline Michels (Sep 1, 2006)

There is a Soldan's in Midland that sells Steve's Real Dog Food. Frozen raw food.

Here's a link: http://www.stevesrealfood.com/


----------



## Melissa Hoyer (Aug 28, 2006)

Ted, 

They have both whole and ground (bone-in) raw products. For example, I've ordered some ground turkey necks, some tripe, etc. Pricing is o.k. - paying for convenience really, though it is cheaper than other premixes. And yes, I'm down in the Detroit suburbs...very jealous of those of you who are further north 

Good luck!
Melissa


----------



## Nate Torberson (Aug 18, 2006)

I was thinking the other day about doing the raw thing, and the money was probably my biggest obstacle. So being the country boy that I am, the thought crossed my mind, why not just raise rabbits and feed them whole? Have any of you tried this? I used to raise mice for my snakes, and it worked out great. Besides the obvious messiness (I would obviously feed outside only) and the mental block of slaughtering cute little fuzzy bunnies (I have no such qualms), are there other issues to be concerned about? I guess I am thinking about ethics and cruelty charges the most. 

My thought was mostly that it costs almost nothing to raise rabbits. I only have one dog now, but if I had more, I would seriously be motivated to try it out. Any thoughts?


----------



## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Nate, there is a gal over on Leerburg named Yuko who feeds whole home raised rabbits. 

I'm really happy with the raw diet. My current dog has been raised from the time he was weaned on raw only. I've seen a lot of people go from kibble to raw, but rarely seen anyone go back to kibble.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Nate, feeding just one meat source could have some drawbacks. One thing I've heard about rabbit is they have a low body fat content. (Maybe just wild rabbit)
Connie could probably give better info.


----------



## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I've heard that too, Bob. Thats why I feed chicken, beef, venison & lamb as my regular meats.


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

I've looked seriously into raising rabbits for meat and probably will someday (the hubby needs a lot of convincing still). The cages are the most expensive part, but would pay for themselves in about a year. With 1 male and 2 female breeders, you would get 6 - 4lb rabbits for meat each month. (24lb) That's not quite enough for one dog.

I found a butcher that will slaughter rabbits for cheap. I was planning on feeding the rabbits pretty much whole. So I was asking about dead and the blood drained out, not about making them pretty for human consumption.

People can get a form of malnutrition form eating rabbit meat as their only meat source. I don't remember - it is some deficiency. I imagine a dog could get it too.


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Nate - the cost isn't all too bad - usually cheaper than a high-end kibble.

I get my meats by the 40# case at a butcher. Another good meat source is WalMart. I pay $.45 - $.55 per pound.

If your dog is an average Mal it would eat 1 to 1.75 lbs per day. $.45 - $.96 per day, ($13.50 - $28.50 per month) not including supplements. Isn't that cheaper than kibble? (My dogs go through kibble like crazy and can't keep their weight on with it - maybe your dog is different.)

Some people use whatever they're cooking for dinner as a supplement - raw egg, different sorts of raw meat scraps, cooked veggies, cooked pasta, oils etc. (Onions, grapes, raisins, chocolate are no-no's). I do this most of the time, but I have a stock of supplements to fall back on if I'm not cooking or if I suspect a food isn't going to go over (or through) very well. 

Just a thought. I hear that raw is too expensive a lot, but I haven't found that to be true for my dogs.


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Nate, feeding just one meat source could have some drawbacks. One thing I've heard about rabbit is they have a low body fat content. (Maybe just wild rabbit)


It may be just wild rabbit, but Bob's absolutely correct. Survivalists (human) even get something they call rabbit poisoning from eating only wild rabbit, and it's a result of the very lean protein. I think kangaroo is similar (not fatty enough to be the sole protein source). And dogs do best on more fat than humans do.

I would avoid one protein source for several reasons. One is that it promotes allergy in an allergy-prone dog; one is that only variety can really cover all the micronutrient bases; one is that we can avoid accidentally withholding something essential that we may not know about yet (not far-fetched; remember taurine?) ....

I'll see if I can find info on whether it's all rabbit or just wild rabbit that is so lean.


----------



## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

Rabbit is very lean for human consumption as we usually eat them skinned and eviserated - and most of the fat is under the skin and attached to the internal organs. I used to raise meat rabbits(for consumption by me) so dogs only got the heads and innards. I think the cheapest way to raise them is make your own cages and do your own butchering, skinning and prep which is pretty easy. For dogs it would be easier as you leave skin and innards intact.
You get more fat on a carcass if you kill the rabbits at 12 weeks vice 8 as an 8 week carcass is kind of like a fryer chicken and not really fatty.
Cages and nest boxes are much more reasonable to make yourself as the single commercial type usually has a slide out tray which is really time consuming to clean if you have a few cages. I made my cages in a bank and had a kind of slanted tray so all the waste could be scooped at once down to one end and rinsed with the hose. Bunny poop is awesome in the compost pile!
I found the rabbits pretty easy to raise and you can usually manage to trade bunny meat for chickens or porc or whatever if you arrange with someone that is raising those. The bunnies need a sheltered spot with good ventilation as they don't like extreme heat and they drink alot - so automatic watering system would be a good investment.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Lynn, as a kid I remember hunting/cleaning rabbits and was always careful about the bile/urine bag? If that was broken we just tossed the whole thing.
Is that something that has to be removed or do the dogs just ignore this?


----------



## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

The dogs weren't picky and they usually just grabbed the big sloppy string of innards and inhaled it!  but I was always pretty careful not to break the gallbladder and get it on the meat as the taste really carries and the the meat was for me. The bladders didn't seem to bother them. On bigger type animals the dogs are not so keen on the gallbladder and they will sometimes leave it and also sometimes stomach contents of beavers and beaver scent glands. I have one dog that will eat ANYTHING so he usually will finish off what others won't eat....


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Lynn, how much do you figure it cost per pound of meat to raise rabbits?


----------



## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

I don't know - I think it is one of those things like dog food that I don't like to add up....:-D I think the rearing costs would be comparable to raising meat birds, but you have to buy young breeding stock and raise them up before you can breed them. I was feeding mostly commercial rabbit pellets and if I did it again I would just do a good quality alalfa hay and a salt block as it is less expensive by quite a bit. I did give quite a bit of garden leftovers and fresh stuff to the rabbits which they really liked. They are more work than chickens but take up less space, don't smell much if you have a good manure recovery system and are quiet - plus the tastiness factor - mmmm bunny pie, bunny nuggets, bunny stew.....
I think if you get good quality breeding stock you have the most efficient weight gain - I had some good New Zealand Whites and they were much faster to reach a good weight than a couple of mongrel bunnies I had - and had big litters also. If you live in a cold area and don't have a heated building you generally won't be breeding any litters in colder months like Nov - Mar so that would factor into costs, too. I quit the rabbits as it was just too much work in the winter when I was outfitting - left home at 0700 and got back at 10 at night - then had unload dogs and do chores....hauling water to rabbits at 11 at night was just one chore too many!


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Thanks Lynn! The gallbladder was what I was thinking about. 
It probably wouldn't work out for me because, like you, bunnies a deeeeelicious! 
I'd probably be fighting over them with the dogs.


----------



## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

meat birds? Do you mean chicken or turkey?


----------



## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

I would appreciate any comments about this proposed new puppy raw protocol

Pup Feeding Protocol

-Growing pups need 5-10% of their body weight in food daily
-Assume a 10 pound newer puppy
-The daily total would be divided by 3 for 3 meals a day
- Avoid larger weight bearing bones until adult teeth come in.
- All pup meals have a “core” of meat such as chicken backs and necks, or ground meat/organs. Other food is added to this core to complete the meal.
- All meals sprinkled with salmon oil, vitamin E. Probios, B-Naturals Green Blend, B-Naturals Immune Blend maybe a part of a multi-vitamin.

Sample Pup Week:

Monday: 
3/4 lb chicken backs & 2 oz burger “core”
Variable: 1 raw egg

Tuesday:
3/4 lb chicken backs & 2 oz burger “core”
Variable: 2 oz yogurt

Wednesday:
3/4 lb chicken backs & 2 oz burger “core”
Variable: 2 oz veggies

Thursday:
3/4 lb chicken backs & 2 oz burger “core”
Variable: 1 raw egg

Friday:
3/4 lb chicken backs & 2 oz burger “core”
Variable: 2 oz. yogurt

Saturday:
3/4 lb chicken backs & 2 oz burger “core”
Variable: 2 oz veggies

Sunday:
3/4 lb chicken backs & 2 oz burger “core”
Variable: 1 raw egg


QUESTIONS: 

Does the yogurt constitute a "variable", or is it more of a part of the meat "core"?

Do you feed a new (8 week) pup the egg shell also?

Is a veggie rotation every third day sufficient or go to every other day?

Thanks much for any replies. And thanks to all that have helped me so far online and offline. (hi Anne)


----------



## Pauline Michels (Sep 1, 2006)

Connie...what do you mean by sea vegetables that you buy green? (I think that's what you said.)


----------



## Alex Corral (Jul 10, 2007)

Anne Vaini said:


> Nate - the cost isn't all too bad - usually cheaper than a high-end kibble.
> 
> I get my meats by the 40# case at a butcher. Another good meat source is WalMart. I pay $.45 - $.55 per pound.
> 
> ...


This is one thing I'm still struggling with. I'm really happy to have my dog on raw & I'm hoping to keep her on it, but I still can't get the costs down to what it was before. Nevermind the extra work as I get grossed out handling all the raw chicken, but I'm still paying more. When my dog (52 lbs) was on Canidae, I paid $35.50 w/tax for a 40lb bag. I also added Merrick canned food and combined, the kibble would last about 55 days, I'd feed about 3 cups kibble/day & 1 can/day @ .53/can. My daily bill would average about $1.16. On raw, I get 40 lbs necks/backs for $19 which last about 50 days, and I am paying about $2.49/lb ground beef, plus salmon oil & vitamin E, I'm averaging about $1.78/day. It takes me about 15 mins to weigh the daily portions for the week. I put them all in a big ziplock bag with wax paper in between each day's chicken serving. I used to put them in daily, smaller bags, but hated the amount of bags I was tossing and it was adding to the raw costs. I'm trying to see what else I can do cuz I will be buying a pup soon. What can I say, I am a cheapass :-\"


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Pauline Michels said:


> Connie...what do you mean by sea vegetables that you buy green? (I think that's what you said.)



I get seaweed mixtures (fresh) locally.

I buy tested sea produce because of all the arsenic and other heavy metals recently in seaweed stuff (like nori and dulse).

Maybe places not near a fishing area don't have fresh local, but the internet has a lot of U.S. (and other places, like Korea, but I don't know about the metal testing in them) sources. I've seen a couple of Maine sea produce companies.

I can find the tested online source if you want.


----------



## Pauline Michels (Sep 1, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I get seaweed mixtures (fresh) locally.
> 
> I buy tested sea produce because of all the arsenic and other heavy metals recently in seaweed stuff (like nori and dulse).
> 
> ...


Thanks Connie...I was just curious. I'd never heard of sea produce. I googled it and was surprised to see the nutritional analysis includes a nice protein level in addition to other goodies.


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

I might not go that far for the dogs except that I discovered it myself and love it. So now they get some too.


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Ted

The diet looks like a great starting point. Don't be afrid to start adding a bit of other meat like organ meat for extra variety now and again. As you start feeding your pup raw you'll get more comfy with it and feel better about trying out new food items.

Alex

When the price of burger doubled this year, I switched to ground turkey for ground meat. There are some who feel that large prey (cow, buffalo) is inappropriate for dog food. (But then again, I know of dogs that have killed cows.... sooo...) Anyway - since it is so expensive now, we're doing without for now. I can feed 3 dogs for about $1.54 per day on raw, kibble (Canidae/Innova Evo is $1.67(+) per day and my dogs can barely maintain their weight. I guess it's more similar in cost that I expected, but I'm not getting freebees at the butcher right now and I pay $0.20 more per pound than I used to.


----------



## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Thanks for the review, Anne


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

The *only* problem (and it's minor) with ground turkey in a poultry-RMB-based diet is that then you're feeding nearly all turkey/chicken. 

Of course, variety can still be introduced with cheap lamb, fish, rabbit, etc.

Eggs and yogurt too ....


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Connie - how long do you think it would be safe to sustain that sort of diet _without_ much supplement? I was thinking 3 months - like the length of a season. I _am_ supplementing with mackerel, beef organs, eggs, yogurt, etc, so this is entirely theoretical.


----------



## Alex Corral (Jul 10, 2007)

Anne Vaini said:


> I can feed 3 dogs for about $1.54 per day on raw, kibble (Canidae/Innova Evo is $1.67(+) per day and my dogs can barely maintain their weight. I guess it's more similar in cost that I expected, but I'm not getting freebees at the butcher right now and I pay $0.20 more per pound than I used to.


So let me get this straight. You feed 3 dogs for about $1.54/day each dog? or total? 

In my quest to find more meat sources for less, what about adding a good quality canned to the raw chicken? Kibble is what takes longer to digest right? Not canned? It's been getting tough, driving from butcher to butcher asking for meat shavings, or paying high prices for ground beef. Here's the ingredients to the canned I used to feed:

Beef, Beef Broth, Beef Heart, Beef Lung, Fresh Sweet Potatoes, Fresh Carrots, Peas, Corn Starch-Modified, Canola Oil, Calcium Carbonate, Salt, Potassium Chloride, Flax Oil (For Omega 3), Seasoning (Cumin, Celery), Carrageenan, Cassia Gum, Caramel Color, Choline Chloride, Lecithin, Zinc Amino Acid Complex, Tocopherol, Iron Amino Acid Complex, Vitamin E Supplement, Manganese Amino Acid Complex, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Vitamin A Acetate, Copper Amino Acid Complex, d-Calcium Pantothenate, D-Activated Animal Sterol (source of Vitamin D3), Niacin, Riboflavin Supplement, Biotin, Ethylenediamine Dihydriodide, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Folic Acid, Thiamin Mononitrate, Sodium Selenite.

Just wondering. Thanks.


----------



## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

I have found a meat processing place close by that sells a 5 gallon bucket of fresh meat scraps and organs for $5. Pork and beef, ocassional venison in season.


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

It's the grain that takes longer to digest. Most canned foods are still grain heavy but that one looks good. It is Merrick? I tasted their canned food. Not horrible. Could use more salt. j/k Can't figure out why it is seasoned for a dog. The meat chuncks left something to be desired. Yes. I am crazy  

Are you sure it costs less for the canned food than for a 1 cup (1/2lb) burger, 1/4 cup veggies and a multivitamin? I'm not a fan of salty foods for dogs (or people).

3 dogs $1.54 per day total. I have such a huge stash of supplements that I'm not including their cost. Maybe add $0.05 for supplements then? Abby gets 1/3 lb, Puppy would be at 1lb (she is kibble fed now) and Kado at 1.5 lb. (2.8lb @$0.55 per lb) Equivalent of their kibble is Abby 1 cup, Puppy 2 cups and Kado 4+ cups per day.

Plus on raw I'm not having to medicate Kado for his reoccurring UTIs that he gets on kibble.


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Ted

Be careful to not overdo the fat. Save it for winter use if your pup will be an outside dog. The scrap will help add variety into your dog's diet. Sounds fun... but I am quite OK with raw meat - as long as it is not still warm!


----------



## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

I would trim this, yes. Some is good, I figure I'd try and incorporate as much as is found in hamburger or a good steak


----------



## Alex Corral (Jul 10, 2007)

Anne Vaini said:


> It's the grain that takes longer to digest. Most canned foods are still grain heavy but that one looks good. It is Merrick?


 WOW Anne!! Yes it is! 



Anne Vaini said:


> Are you sure it costs less for the canned food than for a 1 cup (1/2lb) burger, 1/4 cup veggies and a multivitamin?


 Yes it is. I pay $.53/13oz can. vs $2.49/16oz burger. 



Anne Vaini said:


> 3 dogs $1.54 per day total. I have such a huge stash of supplements that I'm not including their cost. Maybe add $0.05 for supplements then?


 Now that is cheap! I envy you. I am paying more than that for my 1 dog $1.78/day. I use salmon oil & vitamin E & I got them pretty cheap. The thing I really like about RAW is my dog doesn't eat her poop anymore. That was the worst. :-&


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Pauline Michels said:


> Thanks Connie...I was just curious. I'd never heard of sea produce. I googled it and was surprised to see the nutritional analysis includes a nice protein level in addition to other goodies.


I p/u "sea vegetables" today, and when I gave some to the dogs just now I was reminded to post how much they looooooove it. It almost ties with green tripe for a vegetable-matter food (to them).

No idea why. I rinse and soak out the sea salt that it's packaged in; otherwise I would assume it was the salt. Maybe iodine tastes yummy to dogs. :-k


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Anne Vaini said:


> Connie - how long do you think it would be safe to sustain that sort of diet _without_ much supplement? I was thinking 3 months - like the length of a season. I _am_ supplementing with mackerel, beef organs, eggs, yogurt, etc, so this is entirely theoretical.



Without much supplement of what? Fish oil? Or do you mean a diet of just RMBs from one source?


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Ted White said:


> I have found a meat processing place close by that sells a 5 gallon bucket of fresh meat scraps and organs for $5. Pork and beef, ocassional venison in season.



You mean the butcher-bucket as additions to the basic RMBs?


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Ted White said:


> the Flax is not able to have mercury, lead, etc that can be in Fish oil...the reason I switched.


Oops. I hadn't even noticed this.

There is a whole list of companies with distilled fish oil (no heavy metal contaminants remaining), which I would be happy to provide. There are also lots of fish oils made from low-and-no-mercury fish.


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Anne Vaini said:


> Plus on raw I'm not having to medicate Kado for his reoccurring UTIs that he gets on kibble.


This is huge for me. Switching new dogs to raw is an investment against many kinds of vet costs. JMO.


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Anne Vaini
> ...


I mean only one meat / protein source.


----------



## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

I'm absolutely interested in clean oil suppliers. Can you post one?


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Ted White said:


> I'm absolutely interested in clean oil suppliers. Can you post one?


Here's a list:
http://www.crnusa.org/o3group.html

In addition, there are oils both on and not on this list that are made from sardines and anchovies (very safe fish) or wild salmon (ditto, but watch out for farmed salmon).


----------



## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

small point here, but I assume the food is warmed to room temp before feeding?


----------



## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Any of those oil suppliers selling in retail stores?


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

> small point here, but I assume the food is warmed to room temp before feeding?


I have read that is ideal. I don't. In summer when it is too hot for training and exercise, they get partially frozen "chickensicles" (leg quarters) to chill their mouths and give them something to do for a while.


----------



## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Makes sense


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Ted White said:


> Any of those oil suppliers selling in retail stores?


Oh, definitely. Most of them.

I'd just print the list, take it to the health food store, and just see if the brand they carry is on the list.

I buy Nordic Naturals, partly because the company is only a couple of miles away, but also because their product is pharmaceutical quality, no odor or fish taste ... and I use the same one the dogs use.

However, if I were buying it just for them, I'd probably get a fishy one, because I think dogs love the smell and taste.


----------



## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

whick Nordic Natural do you buy? Man... there are soooo many


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Ted White said:


> whick Nordic Natural do you buy? Man... there are soooo many


Wow. There ARE a lot.

I get the liquid because it's way cheaper than the gelcaps, and you don't want fish LIVER oil, which they do have.

Here's the one I buy:

http://www.vitaminshoppe.com/images/catalog/skus/ye-7016.gif


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Wow. There ARE a lot.
> 
> I get the liquid because it's way cheaper than the gelcaps, and you don't want fish LIVER oil, which they do have.
> 
> ...


If you look at other brands, you can't rely on the "Omega 3" label, though.

That can apply to flax, canola, etc. 

So you need to look at the contents. 

This one is wild anchovy and sardine body oil..... a good, sustainable, low-mercury oil even if it was not molecularly distilled (but it is).


----------



## Pauline Michels (Sep 1, 2006)

Thanks for sharing so much info Connie. You add a type of yogurt that has way more probiotics than I ever thought could be found in yogurt! I'll have to see if I can find that type in my area. Probably in health food stores....?

I have been adding kefir because it has more probiotics than "regular" yogurt. However kefir is grain based...yeast also. Does that part negate the good that comes from the additional probiotics?


----------



## Pauline Michels (Sep 1, 2006)

And I forgot to also ask....when feeding eggs including the shells are they cooked or raw. Egg shells concern me. They seem so sharp. I've put them in the oven for awhile and then crush them into a powder form. Is this necessary?


----------



## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Egg shells do seem like a liability. I think they're included as part of the raw egg, though. For pups as well.


----------



## Alex Corral (Jul 10, 2007)

My dog hasn't had any problems crunching and eating the egg shells. It's more fragile than the bone she crunches and swallows. It's pretty cool to watch.


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Oooo - you MADE me do it 

Here's Kado eating his favorite treat - raw egg in shell.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqe10SZlKl4


----------



## Pauline Michels (Sep 1, 2006)

OMG!!!!! I love that dog!!


----------



## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

How about milk? Is milk on the menu?


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Ted White said:


> How about milk? Is milk on the menu?


For my dogs, only fermented milk products (yogurt, for example), which rarely cause any canine problems.


----------



## Alex Corral (Jul 10, 2007)

Anne Vaini said:


> Oooo - you MADE me do it
> 
> Here's Kado eating his favorite treat - raw egg in shell.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqe10SZlKl4


Geezus Anne, LOL! Kado would probably eat 2 dozen eggs, by the time Brandi eats her 1 egg. She cracks it a tiny bit, the starts licking the yolk, then finally starts crunchin away.


----------



## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Connie, How much oil per day for adult pooches?


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Ted White said:


> Connie, How much oil per day for adult pooches?


Fish oil?

I use 1 gram (1000 mg) per ten pounds of dog weight.*

Some use a gram per twenty pounds.

For the Vitamin E, I use 100-200 IU for small dogs and 200-400 IU for big ones.

*5 grams, or 5000 mg, is about a teaspoon.


----------



## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Thanks Connie


----------



## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Cutting up chicken for jerkey. Going really well. Very sharp knife = no need to freeze meat to cut paper thin.

Anyway, I have chicken breast with rib bones and meat left. Just so I can sleep I'll ask. These are OK for an 8 week pup? I'm taking a real leap of faith with these bones.

Again, I'm avoiding any weight bearing bones.

Also, any rough idea what an 8 week old pup weighs? Ballpark? I'm dividing up meal portions by weight.

Thanks


----------



## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Uhm, I had an 8 week old pup not too long ago.... trying to remember the weight, I think it was somewhere around 10lbs, I remember feeding a little under 1lb a day per pup (morning 7oz give or take, evening the same). Pups eat 5-10% of their body weights, adults I give 2.5%.

Those bones are fine for pups, my pups always ate entire chicken backs, necks and wings without any problems.


----------



## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Thanks Mike!


----------



## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Well, he just LOVES the raw diet! Thanks to all who answered my tedious questions.


----------



## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Interesting debate on whether dogs can in fact digest vegetables. Obviously they're carnivores, but the fact remains that dogs live long lives on a vegan diet (no meat, eggs, milk or any animal products at all).

I would assume that the soy protein, veggies, etc are quite cooked and blended to hasten the digestive process or else it just wouldn't work very well.


----------



## Cadence Nakashima (Oct 6, 2007)

I was feeding a prey model diet, but after some issues we switched back to a diet that includes fruits/veggies. 

I know many a raw feeder that feeds prey model diets and their dogs are as healthy as a horse, and I would rather feed a prey model, but as of now, I'm questioning an overload of protein.

So I've been feeding Urban Wolf for the past month or so. It's a powdered form supplement that has all of the fruits/veggies. All you do is add the meat, some oil, can of mackaral and an egg, mix it up and freeze it.

It's easy and the dog's are doing great on it.


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

The Yellowstone Project (gray wolves) videos ended that debate for me. The wolves clearly ate the entire small prey (including the partially-digested vegetation inside), munched on some tender young greens (especially ferns), and ate ripe berries -- in times of plentiful prey. I don't mean that they ate half produce, but they did eat some.

Green tripe and a few blueberries are probably the closest replication, but I do what I can with what I have, always skipping sugary fruits.


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Ted White said:


> Interesting debate on whether dogs can in fact digest vegetables. Obviously they're carnivores, but the fact remains that dogs live long lives on a vegan diet (no meat, eggs, milk or any animal products at all).
> 
> I would assume that the soy protein, veggies, etc are quite cooked and blended to hasten the digestive process or else it just wouldn't work very well.


By "works very well" --- if you mean the dog can survive, then yes.


----------



## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

I am thrilled with the raw diet. Given the occasional veggie you mentioned, I have taken a bag of mixed veggies, cooked it well, pureed it and add about a teaspoon a meal. Can't hurt, and given that I've sort of "partially digested" it it seemd a reasonable thing to do.


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Ted White said:


> I am thrilled with the raw diet. Given the occasional veggie you mentioned, I have taken a bag of mixed veggies, cooked it well, pureed it and add about a teaspoon a meal. Can't hurt, and given that I've sort of "partially digested" it it seemd a reasonable thing to do.


I've done that too.  

Keeps great in the freezer; makes easy winter glop for adding small amounts to the meat, organs, and bones.


----------



## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

exactly! Ever hear of anyone adding some enzyme like amylase to start actual digestion? That's I believe what would be going on in a little citter's belly when eaten by a fox.


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Some new raw feeders use digestive enzymes to get the body's production going when they first give bone.

The dog's diet shouldn't require much amylase. That breaks down fibrous cell walls and grains.


----------



## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

great tidbit Connie.

Side note: My dog is battling Parvo right now. The virus attacks white blood cells among other things. Despite this, the pups WBC count is exactly in the ptimal range. Clear indicator of a healhy immune system. Sort of surprised the Vet.

So I'm more committed than ever to RAW diet and Connie's recomended supplements.


----------

