# Utility dogs (Gebrauchshunde)



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

What in yozr mind represents a "Utility Dog" , i.e. Working Line Dog for sport?

After learning that in the US, an Airedale Terrier is an "alternative" dog, because it doesn't belong to the "mainstream dogs", I thought I'd call you out on what you think is a "mainstream dog"

The Airedale is , according to FCI Rules, a utility dog, not a hunting d0g (although no person in their right mind would deny the hunting quality).


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## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

You think an Airedale is a primary breed used in Police or even sport work? Is that what you're suggesting? Your video you posted earlier was what seemed to be a mediocre dog. I've seen a few picture here and there and there was that KNPV Airedale...but the fact that we are even having this conversation means that the answer is obvious.

Does any one ever suggest a WL GSD is an alternative breed? Malanois? If you can't name 50 dogs in the entire world doing consitent work then it's an alternative breed...

This is obviously not a knock on indivigual dogs. If you know a Airdale (or Bulldog, Bandog, Corso, etc.) doing good work that's awesome. But find me more than a handful doing work equal to that of a good Mal...

p.s. 50 is a completely arbitrary number and it's a completely arbitrary test...


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I think the "mainstream" vs "alternative" thing is pretty easy. Mainstream are the dogs that are predominently seen in the venue under discussion, alternative are ones that are sometimes seen, but not very often.

In all my examples, I am talking about in the US, breeds used may be different in other countries.

For French Ring the Malinois would be mainstream, and really almost every other breed would be alternative, although the DS and GSD would be somewhere in the middle. 

For Schutzhund the GSD and Malinois would be mainstream, Dobe, Rott, Pit, Airedale, etc would be alternative.

For weight pull the Pit, other bulldog breeds, northern breeds, etc would be mainstream, a Malinois, GSD and many other breeds would be alternative.

I don't think it's about what group a breed is in, it's about how often you actually see that breed out there performing in a certain venue. 

As far as Airedales go, I think I've seen one do bitework in person once, maybe twice. Don't remember ever actually seeing one in person competing in French Ring, Mondio Ring or Schutzhund. So yes, I'd definitely consider them an "alternative" breed.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

So what you're saying is in end effect, there are three mainstream breeds:

Malinois, Dutch Herder and GSD??

These are the breeds that compete at top level. Does this mean that Airedale, Dobermann, Rottweier, Boxer, Briard & Co. are "alternative"?

The majority of dog handlers are competing at regional level with such dogs. Are all WDF handlers training at top level with the named three breeds?

At regional level in Europe, the dogs you name are not alternative.

Is this what dog sport has been reduced to: 3 breeds???


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

This is a global forum and I try to update myself on what is happening in the USA. I would expect the same 
broad outlook on the rest of the canine world from US canine handlers.

BTW I didn't show the Airedale video to present a *super" performance but just to show a reasonable performance of which I am sure many on here would be glad if they achieved even similar and, why not??


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Gillian Schuler said:


> So what you're saying is in end effect, there are three mainstream breeds:
> 
> Malinois, Dutch Herder and GSD??
> 
> These are the breeds that compete at top level. Does this mean that Airedale, Dobermann, Rottweier, Boxer, Briard & Co. are "alternative"?


It must be different in Switzerland, but I have seen only two or three Briards in my life, let alone doing any protection sport. I've only seen one Airedale doing bitework and no boxers (though I've seen Jerry's boxer and I know Dave's boxer does PSA). Have seen about equal numbers of Dobes and Rottweilers doing bitework (there seems to be one or two per club in an average all breed club). 



> The majority of dog handlers are competing at regional level with such dogs. Are all WDF handlers training at top level with the named three breeds?
> 
> At regional level in Europe, the dogs you name are not alternative.
> 
> Is this what dog sport has been reduced to: 3 breeds???


For protection sport if you want a higher probability of being competitive, yes. There's a reason why occasionally a really outstanding offbreed example is described as "hitting like a German shepherd" or "fast entries like a Malinois" and not the other way around. ;-)


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Gillian, I think you will find mainstream dogs are dogs with lots of ball drive. Ball drive translates to "easier for most to train for sportwork". In Europe, the airedale was more of a civil dog before sporty dogs became popular.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Maren, I understand you but if the dog sport has been reduced to "hitting like a GSD" or "fast entries like a Malinois", then it makes me sad.

It was far more interesting competing with a Briard agaist Boxers, Rottweilers, Airedales, Dobermann & Co.

I have 2 GSDs that hit hard, but for me that is not all there is to training and trialling.

.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Gillian Schuler said:


> So what you're saying is in end effect, there are three mainstream breeds:
> 
> Malinois, Dutch Herder and GSD??


In the US, yes.



Gillian Schuler said:


> These are the breeds that compete at top level. Does this mean that Airedale, Dobermann, Rottweier, Boxer, Briard & Co. are "alternative"?


In the US, yes. That is how that term is used.



Gillian Schuler said:


> The majority of dog handlers are competing at regional level with such dogs. Are all WDF handlers training at top level with the named three breeds?


Not quite sure what the question is, so I'll answer it the two ways I interpret it. 

The WDF handlers who are training at a top level, are using one of those 3 breeds. Not all WDF handlers are training at a top level though. 



Gillian Schuler said:


> At regional level in Europe, the dogs you name are not alternative.


And that's great, it will help keep the other breeds as viable alternatives for people who don't want one of the main 3. Which actually IMO is the main 2, at least here in the US. The DS is either the least popular of the mainstream breeds, or the most popular of the alternative breeds, I'm not really sure which category it would go in. But the number of DS being used for sport work is higher than Dobe, Rott, etc but much lower than Mali or GSD.



Gillian Schuler said:


> Is this what dog sport has been reduced to: 3 breeds???


No, but those breeds are the main breeds you see. I don't hear people refering to them as "mainstream" though. I do hear people refering to the other breeds as "alternative". 



Gillian Schuler said:


> This is a global forum and I try to update myself on what is happening in the USA. I would expect the same
> broad outlook on the rest of the canine world from US canine handlers.


It is a global forum, but when people on the forum speak (type) about things, I think they tend to refer to what they personally known/have seen. IE "alternative breed". In the US, pretty much anything other than a Malinois or GSD is not a mainstream breed for the protection sports. Starting to see more DS, but they are still just a handful compared to the Mal and GSD. 

Like Maren said, everything else is in pretty small numbers.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Kadi, thanks for your reply.

What I gather though from your reply, although competent, is, this is a predominantly centered US forum. Like I said I try to update myself on the US but a lot of the posts on various matters show an absolute ignorance / disinterest in European canine breeds, sports, etc.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Gillian, I think you will find mainstream dogs are dogs with lots of ball drive. Ball drive translates to "easier for most to train for sportwork". In Europe, the airedale was more of a civil dog before sporty dogs became popular.


It's about a lot more than just ball drive. I know sport dogs with very little ball drive, heck I know of a dog titled at the 3 level in multiple disciplines, who I saw watch a ball sail right over his head, with no interest at all. But he loves to bite, and he's got a talented handler who was willing to find other ways to motivate him, and he's been quite successful. But the dog has to have drive for something that the handler can use to manipulate and control behaviors. Toy or food drive are usually the easiest to work with.

Anyway, the dogs that are "mainstream" are mainstream because they have been found to best suit the needs of the trainers/handlers for both sport and police work. If other breeds were suitable in large numbers, those breeds would be being used instead, or at least in addition to.

That other breeds aren't being used in large numbers is a pretty clear indicator that finding suitable candidates within those breeds is difficult. If people who own those other breeds want their breed to become popular for sport or police work, they are going to have to breed dogs that are suitable, and get them into the right hands. If people don't care whether their breed is utilized for police or sport work, then there is no reason to try to breed for those jobs, but at the same time it doesn't make much sense to take jabs at the traits that make the popular breeds popular.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

> Gillian Schuler said:
> 
> 
> > ...but a lot of the posts on various matters show an absolute ignorance / disinterest in European canine breeds, sports, etc.


Are the Malinois and GSD not European breeds and are Schutzhund and Ring not European sports? Not sure what you mean...


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Mare, not sure what you are referring to?


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

So you said Americans (since this is a predominantly North American forum) show ignorance to European breeds/sports. But GSDs and Malinois are European breeds and Schutzhund and Ring are European sports, so I am confused by what you mean.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Gillian Schuler said:


> What I gather though from your reply, although competent, is, this is a predominantly centered US forum. Like I said I try to update myself on the US but a lot of the posts on various matters show an absolute ignorance / disinterest in European canine breeds, sports, etc.


You gather wrong. I'm not sure what the actual breakdown is of people on this forum, and where they live. Although I do believe the majority are in the US.

My point is that while I think we are all interested in learning about what is going on in other places, countries, breeds, etc. If we weren't, I'm not sure we would bother with things like internet forums. After all, I can take a short drive and talk to people in my area, learn from them, etc. I don't need an internet forum for that. The purpose of the forum is to make connections with people in other areas or countries. But when we talk we talk about what we personally know. 

Someone in Europe may have a more global view on things, but you can fit quite a few of the countries into just part of the US. So yes, they are going to have more personal experience with what is going on in France, Belgium, Germany, Holland, etc. Just like someone in my part of the US is going to have personal experience with what is going on in California, Oregon, Washington, Arizona, etc. 

When I talk about an alternative breed, I am talking about what my experience is in regards to the breeds I see. Obviously my experience is different than yours, so my definition is different. Doesn't mean I'm not interested in your definition though.

And your initial question was "What *in yozr mind* represents a "Utility Dog" , i.e. Working Line Dog for sport?"


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Kadi said:

That other breeds aren't being used in large numbers is a pretty clear indicator that finding suitable candidates within those breeds is difficult. If people who own those other breeds want their breed to become popular for sport or police work, they are going to have to breed dogs that are suitable, and get them into the right hands. If people don't care whether their breed is utilized for police or sport work, then there is no reason to try to breed for those jobs, but at the same time it doesn't make much sense to take jabs at the traits that make the popular breeds popular.

You are absolutely rght here when we are talking about top level sports. It's what disgusts me about varous breed clubs that will not compete against the GSD and Malinois, thereby lowering the working performances of their dogs.

However, in regional sports, many "alternatve" breeds are to be found giving good, if not spectacular, performances.

When people read on here that there are only 2 breeds for dog sorts, etc., the discussion basis will be reduced in the same manner, 

Who will want to show an "alternative" dog video to have it "downed" as "mediocre"?


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Gillian, I think you will find mainstream dogs are dogs with lots of ball drive. Ball drive translates to "easier for most to train for sportwork". In Europe, the airedale was more of a civil dog before sporty dogs became popular.


That's true!

I wouldn't mind owning one. My Dad had Airedales and some of his tales about them, if probably somewhat far-fetched, obviously related to tough dogs, naybe not so easy to handle.

The dog I learned most from was a whie and black Newfoundland (Landseer). I did Swiss Working dog trials with him. We learned a lot about the dog then. Most of us didn't have "low-maintenance" breeds, and playing with a ball or tug was unheard of but the dogs worked for us - we learned how to read them.


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## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

Gillian Schuler said:


> However, in regional sports, many "alternatve" breeds are to be found giving good, if not spectacular, performances.
> 
> When people read on here that there are only 2 breeds for dog sorts, etc., the discussion basis will be reduced in the same manner,
> 
> Who will want to show an "alternative" dog video to have it "downed" as "mediocre"?


I don't understand what your point is. If I liked to race bicycles then I'm not going to go to walmart and get a beach cruiser. 

Why would I want a dog in which the best of the breed gives "good if not spectacular" performances at the regional level. I've owned dogs that had less than the neccesary drives and it is an unbelieveably frustrating experience.

My point at "downing" you video isn't that you shouldn't compete with alternative breeds but that there is a reason that they are alternative. If I had that dog I'd sure be proud of him, he's obvioulsy head and shoulders above the rest of the breed (for sport bitework). But that's the point isn't it?

When you have to show a video of a performance that most of us would never even look at twice if it was a GSD to prove that Airedales can work then it makes the answer obvious.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I'm sorry I showed it really. I don't know the dog or breeder - it was just to show that there are working Airedales in Europe, obviously not working at top level.

You said:

*I've owned dogs that had less than the neccesary drives and it is an unbelieveably frustrating experience.*

A lot of dog handlers think like you do, I'll admit.

I learned more from such dogs than I did from the dogs with drive. I never ever found it to be a frustrating experience. On the contrary, I found it a challenge but then I've never regarded dog training as a just a means to end up on the 1-2-3 plattform at Worlds. I'd be chuffed as anyone if I landed there but not frustrated if I didn't.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> This is a global forum and I try to update myself on what is happening in the USA. I would expect the same broad outlook on the rest of the canine world from US canine handlers.


Gillian, I hope that this is not your sole source of information about US handlers. Please continue your broad outlook and seek other sources of information. Or better yet come over for a visit, that's the only way you are really going to have a clue what's going on here. 

Have you ever come to the US for dog stuff?


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Gillian.

When I said mainstream, I also mentioned police dogs. Predominantly they are the three breeds, Dutchies, Mals, and Shepherds, from what I have seen. 

It doesn't mean good dogs come in other breeds. I love my boxer, and it did my heart good to see one being retired from police work only to be replaced by another. 

I hate agreeing with Don, but he is a little bit right here. Dogs with higher prey drive, balanced with defense are easier to train. The reason I see for this is money. Time spent in training, returned dogs, etc. This is driven from your side of the water. You guys have a lot more good breedings behind you and it would be silly to think that selling dogs isn't a big business.

If you have a lot of nice showing "off breeds" at regional events, how do they do at national events?


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

I've been skimming this post and hopefully I'm not off the mark with this comment ...but, to me, the reason I've not seen many "off breeds" or "non-mainstream breeds" be successful in police work or PSA (the sport I choose to compete in) is because they either do not have the desire or the nerve. I've watched the testing of a variety of "off breeds" and even tested some myself. They either don't take the threat seriously and have little to no prey drive or cannot handle even the smallest amount of decoy pressure. This makes it incredibly difficult to train that dog to more than just a very basic level. Most of the "off breeds" in PSA usually don't make it past a PDC or a PSA 1. But believe me, I love to see a dog that's not a Mal or a Dutchie out there kicking butt. I have seen one nice Bouvier, one nice Dogo, two nice Bandogs and a couple APBTs and ABs that I would love to own. But, the majority of the dogs that impress me are the dogs that are most commonly seen in sport and police work ...and I have to believe there's a reason why.

If the "off breeds" are so much better, why aren't there more of them out there? Personally, I would really like to compete with a dog other than a Mal or a Dutchie, but I'm not willing to accept mediocrity. Honestly, after watching the couple Bandogs who impressed me, I'm very tempted to go down that road. But, overall, it's much easier to find a quality Mal that can perform to the standard I expect. It has nothing to do with just having more ball drive. I'm looking at the dog as a whole. I want drive, intensity and confidence and it just seems that it's been bred out of a lot of the "off breeds" ...at least when it comes to working on a man.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i think there is one other aspect that is relevant to off breeds not being predominant

my example is the JRT
a lot of you saw the vid of that little tiger ... great all around dog
i have seen MANY JRT's that would be able to perform in any ring sport
- they can have the drive and the balls and clearly will bite when told
- i think i have mentioned b4 the overall BEST trained dog i ever saw was a JRT, and it was also a biter
size matters of course, and no one really has an interest in watching a little dog do big dog sports especially bite related .. they tend to think it is just "cute"

otoh i would not hesitate to feel confident as a LEO with a well trained JRT in my car as i don't think a bad guy could drop kick it like some may feel

and one other reason i feel this way is i get a lot of aggressive dog problems to deal with - BITERS -
- i have found that giving a biter an outlet to go right ahead and bite, and then teach them control over the bite, is often a very good way to eliminate out of control biting, and i have taught a lot of biters how much fun it can be to bite like hell - when told to, and at the appropriate time, rather than teach them NOT to bite any time
- and this is not restricted to pure bred dogs

- since the gsd, mal and ds dogs are predominant, there is no reason to believe they will NOT stay predominant, nor will law enforcement or the military ever want "little dogs", but i think there are a lot of dogs capable of performing in ring sports that could cut the mustard given the right guidance if their owners really wanted to spend the time and effort do it. most never even consider it.

of COURSE the purists will think this is ludicrous and would be a disaster, and i understand why


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

rick smith said:


> i think there is one other aspect that is relevant to off breeds not being predominant
> 
> my example is the JRT
> a lot of you saw the vid of that little tiger ... great all around dog
> ...


I'm sorry. I love tenacious little dogs and even own one myself. But I cannot see the practicality in having such a tiny dog as a police dog. I'm a woman and wouldn't think twice about fighting a JRT that was sent on me. They are just so completely out gunned it wouldn't be fair. A PSD is supposed to be a force multiplier. It would just be too easy to take out a JRT and completely waste a valuable asset. You need a dog that will have not only have the confidence and drive to fight a man, but also have enough ass to throw around behind that.

Just my opinion ...


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

I can understand your point to a degree
but 
"But I cannot see the practicality in having such a tiny dog as a police dog". 
i don't consider them tiny; just smaller 

"I'm a woman and wouldn't think twice about fighting a JRT that was sent on me"
i'm sure you might be able to, but i am not talking about a trainer who is used to having a dog engage them with the ability to catch and hold; i'm referring to male or female dumb ass suspect that needs to be detained so that the human can finish the job of apprehension, and imo a well trained JRT is perfectly capable of taking off a finger if it wanted to and definitely able catch and "detain" any fleeing suspect. 

- if i had that kind of dog and you were a suspect i doubt you would be thinking about engaging or fighting it.......i defer to the LEOs here, but i'm assuming in most K9 engagements, suspects are more concerned with getting the dog OFF them then fighting them, since they are already in a "flight" mode and know there is an armed officer close behind the dog (unless they are totally drugged)
- otoh, if a smaller dog was doing a B/H there might not be the same visible deterrence factor, but that would an assumption that has not been proven since smaller dogs have not been used.....imo the total picture to a scumbag is not just an ankle biter barking at them; it's a small police dog attached to an ARMED COP, and most people have a natural fear of being confronted by any dog who is obviously intending to attack them.....my guess is that they (Male or Female) would be grabbing their crotch rather than putting their hands in the air 

"They are just so completely out gunned it wouldn't be fair". 
- you could also look at the smaller size and increased agility as a plus not a minus....but almost any dog regardless of size has sufficient bite pressure to break bones on unprotected body parts, especially if it was trained to enjoy doing the job, and very few scumbags dress in protective clothing meant to deter a dog attack

"A PSD is supposed to be a force multiplier".
- maybe to an extent but that is a military term usually meant to add more firepower with less expenditure of resources, and that IS what any canine brings to the situation.....catch grab and hold while minimizing risk to the officer - not meant to take out, kill or cause havoc that allows a smaller force to do the job of a larger one thereby saving manpower, etc

plus they are cheaper to feed 

anyway as we used to say - size matters, but the fire in the gut matters more 
- anyway, just my opinion and i doubt it will ever be tested in the real world since the "i want a big badass dog next to me" is probably the view that will prevail


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

btw, regarding another "off breed" ... we have two Japanese self defense force mwd handlers that work with our base MA's..,.they both have mals....we've had discussions together about why Japan never used akitas for psd work.....they both agreed that they could easily be trained and would do well, but that it was mostly a "cultural" bias of not wanting the breed to get the rep as a "police dog", rather than any other reason


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

The reason I questoned the "alternative" / "off-breed" descriptions is because the ones mentioned, officially belonged to the list of "Gebrauchshunde", at least here in Europe. 

Over here the term "Exoten" is used for breeds that do not have a long history in dog sports, army, police work, etc. The "off-breed" term therefore has for me a touch of the exotics but I can live with it 

Urs Ochsenbein (a legend here in Switzerland) described the Airedale as a hard dog, not easy to train and with a high sexual drive causing it to be easily distracted.

Rottweiler, Dobermann, Airedale, Boxer, Riesenschnauzer, Briard, Hovawart & Co. are still to be seen but obviously not at Worlds and disappointingly, rarely at Swiss All-breed Championships. A few of these breed clubs have amalgamated to compete against each other in their own "National", thereby lowering competition considerably.

Some of these breeds can be seen at Avalanche, Water Rescue, Rescue, Sanitätshunde and Swiss Schutzhund Championships though.

I agree with all you say about a dog wih prey drive being easier to train. I trained our Fila for working trials. He only came to life in tracking and search square work and at these he excelled!!

A lot of trainers had moderate success with the above-mentioned dogs in Schutzhund and IPO and, being good trainers, wanted to show their prowess and mingle among the top ten with the result that GSD and Malinois have remained.

I had reasonable success with the Briard and, having trained in GSD Clubs, bought a GSD, although I toyed with the idea of a Malinois. The Briard was easy to train - he had drive and lived to work. He hit the sleeve hard but not all his grips were good.

The GSD has drive, great bitework but his heelwork is a disgrace for today's standards and control in protection is miserable. I should have invested far more time in his training but due to accidents and work I couldn't. Now with a broken shoulder, I can't even take advantage of a colleague's offer of protecton training.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Gillian Schuler said:


> The reason I questoned the "alternative" / "off-breed" descriptions is because the ones mentioned, officially belonged to the list of "Gebrauchshunde", at least here in Europe.
> 
> Over here the term "Exoten" is used for breeds that do not have a long history in dog sports, army, police work, etc. The "off-breed" term therefore has for me a touch of the exotics but I can live with it
> 
> ...



Do any top trainers use any other dogs? I wonder if it is the chicken or the egg? IE if a human capable of a world class performance tested and selected an "off breed" how it would go. Arguably the gene pool is bigger for working GSDs, Mals etc. But I wonder if they could win with a different dog if they themselves were of world class performance. Or, if they are world class performers because they pick Mals or GSDs. Either way, I think they are smart for winning with what they can win with, that's the goal. But I wonder...


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

rick smith said:


> i think there is one other aspect that is relevant to off breeds not being predominant
> 
> my example is the JRT
> a lot of you saw the vid of that little tiger ... great all around dog
> ...



Someone needs to breed 80-90 lb, crack crazy mofo JRTs.
The Smithsonian magazine once said that if hummingbirds were as big as crows we'd be afraid to go in the woods. I could see that happening with a lot of JRTs.
:-k...WAIT! #-o Dick and Selena have already done it. They call them Van Leenwen Dutchies! :-D:wink:


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> Do any top trainers use any other dogs? I wonder if it is the chicken or the egg? IE if a human capable of a world class performance tested and selected an "off breed" how it would go. Arguably the gene pool is bigger for working GSDs, Mals etc. But I wonder if they could win with a different dog if they themselves were of world class performance. Or, if they are world class performers because they pick Mals or GSDs. Either way, I think they are smart for winning with what they can win with, that's the goal. But I wonder...


You might want to lookup Ivan Balabanov's showline GSD Apache. 

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> You might want to lookup Ivan Balabanov's showline GSD Apache.
> 
> Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk


I've only seen Apache once at the WUSV World when it was here a few yrs ago. (08?)
Definitely not very impressive but in his defense, I've heard he's better then what I saw then.
Jumps the meter like a show dog. :-o :-#


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> You might want to lookup Ivan Balabanov's showline GSD Apache.
> 
> Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk



It's a GSD?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> It's a GSD?



Yes! WG show line.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Here you go! 
Vhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7A3a8C4xMGM


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Well, some credit to Balabanov for taking a show line dog to the WUSV... However, I dont think this dog belongs there... 

IMO, oceans and rivers are both made of water, but one is salt water and the other isnt. Same goes for working line and show line animals... They shouldnt venture into each other's venues.


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## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

Tiago Fontes said:


> Well, some credit to Balabanov for taking a show line dog to the WUSV... However, I dont think this dog belongs there...
> 
> IMO, oceans and rivers are both made of water, but one is salt water and the other isnt. Same goes for working line and show line animals... They shouldnt venture into each other's venues.


??? 

if the dog is successful then who cares what his pedigree his. No one says you have to get a puppy from it.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Ivan is probably the most innovative trainers, like it or not! I said it once and I'll say it again, there is nothing new about ME's training methods, he learned from Ivan!
New method of teaching the stand from Ivan. Down the dog on two tires, back feet in one hole of the one tire, front feet in the other tire hole. Tires lying flat. This makes it very uncomfortable for the dog to down, so it is more willing to get up! And it works. Ivan is constantly inventing!
Heeling in a snake like pattern so the dog is always with you, if they can do that then doing straight is easy! Little things like that!


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Dave Colborn said:


> IE if a human capable of a world class performance tested and selected an "off breed" how it would go. .


A lot of people do it so they always have a built in excuse!


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Ivan is probably the most innovative trainers, like it or not! I said it once and I'll say it again, there is nothing new about ME's training methods, he learned from Ivan!
> New method of teaching the stand from Ivan. Down the dog on two tires, back feet in one hole of the one tire, front feet in the other tire hole. Tires lying flat. This makes it very uncomfortable for the dog to down, so it is more willing to get up! And it works. Ivan is constantly inventing!
> Heeling in a snake like pattern so the dog is always with you, if they can do that then doing straight is easy! Little things like that!


Did he win with that performance? That would show a top performer could carry a show dog. That would answer my question of whether a world class trainer could select something and train it through. Show dogs should be able to do work, i think all here would agree.

This supports my point a little, either way, because he trains well, he could probably get a lot out of a dog that others couldn't even if not winning. Just wonder if he won.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Timothy Stacy said:


> A lot of people do it so they always have a built in excuse!



I agree. I expect a lot from my boxer, and wont show him again til he's ready. In the back of my mind though is "get what you can out of him" not go win this event, like it should be. Good point, and I'll work on it. I don't want to hear someone say he works well for a boxer. I am the first step in carrying the "he is a good working dog" attitude. 

But i am not a world class trainer either.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Dave Colborn said:


> I agree. I expect a lot from my boxer, and wont show him again til he's ready. In the back of my mind though is "get what you can out of him" not go win this event, like it should be. Good point, and I'll work on it. I don't want to hear someone say he works well for a boxer. I am the first step in carrying the "he is a good working dog" attitude.
> 
> But i am not a world class trainer either.


I like your attitude Dave!


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Ben Colbert said:


> ???
> 
> if the dog is successful then who cares what his pedigree his. No one says you have to get a puppy from it.


 
I think I've read 80 points in protection... Would you consider that successful?

Whether you agree with me or not, a dog's pedigree is important... It shows me its ancestors and genetics, as well as direction one can go in the future to preserve good blood (whether your purpose is show or work). 

Let me ask you this (for the sake of discussion):

If this particular dog had scored 100 points in protection and you had a great working line bitch... Would you consider this animal as a potential stud (assuming you were a breeder and looking for males to breed your bitch into)? 



Regards


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Tiago Fontes said:


> I think I've read 80 points in protection... Would you consider that successful?
> 
> Whether you agree with me or not, a dog's pedigree is important... It shows me its ancestors and genetics, as well as direction one can go in the future to preserve good blood (whether your purpose is show or work).
> 
> ...


Isn't Schutzhund a test for breeding? Shouldn't, in a perfect world show line dogs that are working breeds have working ability? I am not saying this dog should be a stud one way or the other. a four minute video doesn't tell that. But isn't the whole system flawed anyway between showline and workers considering the GSD?

Nice to see a trainer show one can do both.


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## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

Tiago Fontes said:


> I think I've read 80 points in protection... Would you consider that successful?
> 
> Whether you agree with me or not, a dog's pedigree is important... It shows me its ancestors and genetics, as well as direction one can go in the future to preserve good blood (whether your purpose is show or work). They told me to come back when i got a GSD.
> 
> ...


 
If he had scored 100pts in protection at WUSV then I believe we could talk about breeding. But I understand what you mean and I believe you are missing the point.

The initial comment was that "He doesn't belong there". That reminds me of the attitude I got when I brought my mutt to my very first Schutzhund club. They didn't want to work him, they didn't even want me to take him out of the car.

If a dog can hold his own at worlds then he belongs there.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> I agree. I expect a lot from my boxer, and wont show him again til he's ready. In the back of my mind though is "get what you can out of him" not go win this event, like it should be. Good point, and I'll work on it. I don't want to hear someone say he works well for a boxer. I am the first step in carrying the "he is a good working dog" attitude.
> 
> But i am not a world class trainer either.


I like your attitude, too. When I trotted on to the field with my "hand-knitted" Briard there were a lot of smirks all round but his scores in IPO protection 1 and 2 were 90-94, so I smirked when I left the field.
In 3, with more grips, he sometimes lost points but never below 88.

Wolfgang Zörner of Austria took a Bernese Mountain Dog to FCI-IPO Worlds and Aion Wiesmadern came in 18th. Zörner worked a lot of his Bernese in Avalanche, IPO Tracking, International Rescue Contests and Aion was claimed the world's most versatile trained dog. 

Zörner is President of the IRO. 

http://www.bernersennenhunde.at/hunde/hunde.htm


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Dave Colborn said:


> Isn't Schutzhund a test for breeding? Shouldn't, in a perfect world show line dogs that are working breeds have working ability? I am not saying this dog should be a stud one way or the other. a four minute video doesn't tell that. But isn't the whole system flawed anyway between showline and workers considering the GSD?
> 
> Nice to see a trainer show one can do both.


 
The only thing is, we dont live in a perfect world... Perfect show dogs being perfect working dogs, belongs to a perfect world concept, imo. You want working dogs, choose from the working gene pool... You want show dogs, choose from the show gene pool. I'd rather working GSD and showline GSD become two seperate breeds, instead of having them all lumped into the same. The split is already there, so.......

Besides, I really really dislike those black and tan dogs, anyway...lol

Regardless, I'm nobody to be criticizing Balabanov and his choice of a dog! Doing what he did is something remarkable by itself.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Ben Colbert said:


> If he had scored 100pts in protection at WUSV then I believe we could talk about breeding. But I understand what you mean and I believe you are missing the point.
> 
> The initial comment was that "He doesn't belong there". That reminds me of the attitude I got when I brought my mutt to my very first Schutzhund club. They didn't want to work him, they didn't even want me to take him out of the car.
> 
> If a dog can hold his own at worlds then he belongs there.


The answer is no. A perfect score does not make the dog worth breeding. Dog are like people once again, Their ar dogs that love to work, there ard dogs that are not suited for it. As far as a showline dog getting a perfect score, there is probably no a person here that could do that with the same dog. If the 100 points makes the dog a breeding prospect then you should be breeding the trainer.


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

That is my opinion as well.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Tiago Fontes said:


> The only thing is, we dont live in a perfect world... Perfect show dogs being perfect working dogs, belongs to a perfect world concept, imo. You want working dogs, choose from the working gene pool... You want show dogs, choose from the show gene pool. I'd rather working GSD and showline GSD become two seperate breeds, instead of having them all lumped into the same. The split is already there, so.......
> 
> Besides, I really really dislike those black and tan dogs, anyway...lol
> 
> Regardless, I'm nobody to be criticizing Balabanov and his choice of a dog! Doing what he did is something remarkable by itself.


I say way to go Ivan. Per the AKC dogs are supposed to be "fit and willing" to do the work (of some type) anyway. I don't know about other organizations.


GSD Breed Standard Per the AKC
The breed has a distinct personality marked by direct and fearless, but not hostile, expression, self-confidence and a certain aloofness that does not lend itself to immediate and indiscriminate friendships. The dog must be approachable, quietly standing its ground and showing confidence and willingness to meet overtures without itself making them. It is poised, but when the occasion demands, eager and alert; both fit and willing to serve in its capacity as companion, watchdog, blind leader, herding dog, or guardian, whichever the circumstances may demand. The dog must not be timid, shrinking behind its master or handler; it should not be nervous, looking about or upward with anxious expression or showing nervous reactions, such as tucking of tail, to strange sounds or sights. Lack of confidence under any surroundings is not typical of good character. Any of the above deficiencies in character which indicate shyness must be penalized as very _serious faults_ and any dog exhibiting pronounced indications of these must be excused from the ring. It must be possible for the judge to observe the teeth and to determine that both testicles are descended. Any dog that attempts to bite the judge must be _disqualified._ The ideal dog is a working animal with an incorruptible character combined with body and gait suitable for the arduous work that constitutes its primary purpose.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Tiago Fontes said:


> That is my opinion as well.


Would you breed any dog based on a perfect protection score anyway?


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

No sir, I would not... 

But I would breed to a dog with a perfect score, after submitting him to a few tests which he had to pass and studying its pedigree. 


Regards


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Tiago Fontes said:


> No sir, I would not...
> 
> But I would breed to a dog with a perfect score, after submitting him to a few tests which he had to pass and studying its pedigree.
> 
> ...


So a good protection score and then you would discuss the other things needed, test, pedigree. This is exactly what Ben said.

Or are you saying there are no pedigrees in show line dogs that you would breed to?


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Dave Colborn said:


> I say way to go Ivan. Per the AKC dogs are supposed to be "fit and willing" to do the work (of some type) anyway. I don't know about other organizations.
> 
> 
> GSD Breed Standard Per the AKC
> The breed has a distinct personality marked by direct and fearless, but not hostile, expression, self-confidence and a certain aloofness that does not lend itself to immediate and indiscriminate friendships. The dog must be approachable, quietly standing its ground and showing confidence and willingness to meet overtures without itself making them. It is poised, but when the occasion demands, eager and alert; both fit and willing to serve in its capacity as companion, watchdog, blind leader, herding dog, or guardian, whichever the circumstances may demand. The dog must not be timid, shrinking behind its master or handler; it should not be nervous, looking about or upward with anxious expression or showing nervous reactions, such as tucking of tail, to strange sounds or sights. Lack of confidence under any surroundings is not typical of good character. Any of the above deficiencies in character which indicate shyness must be penalized as very _serious faults_ and any dog exhibiting pronounced indications of these must be excused from the ring. It must be possible for the judge to observe the teeth and to determine that both testicles are descended. Any dog that attempts to bite the judge must be _disqualified._ The ideal dog is a working animal with an incorruptible character combined with body and gait suitable for the arduous work that constitutes its primary purpose.


 
Since I do not live in the USA, here is my question: 

What is being done by the AKC in order to achieve this? 

All I read is a very generic description of a perfect dog in a perfect world... Most properly socialized pet dogs will somewhat show traits like the ones described above. 

Which traits should a watchdog possess? Sharpness, thin nerve? It reminds me of an alarm dog... Yorkies become a viable option, in this case.

Which traits should a companion dog possess? Calmness, lower drive? French Bulldog, become a viable option.

Which traits should a blind leading dog possess? Lower drive, no aggression, handler sensivity? Labrador, Golden Retriever seem to fit the description.

Which traits should a guardian possess? Dominance? High defense? Fila Brasileiro, Presa Canario, Caucasian Ovtcharka, seem to be suited for the job.

The same individual while being shown should show all the above characteristics? Does not seem realistic to me... Descriptions are so vague, because they come from the vision of a couple of people who try to be politically correct when writing down standards and have no CLUE as to what makes a serious working dog. 

In fact, to be brutally honest with you, I'm tired of FCI/AKC bullshit.


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Dave Colborn said:


> So a good protection score and then you would discuss the other things needed, test, pedigree. This is exactly what Ben said.
> 
> Or are you saying there are no pedigrees in show line dogs that you would breed to?


 
That is correct, I would not throw in a drop of show line blood into a working line dog. 

But, take it for what's worth.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Tiago Fontes said:


> That is correct, I would not throw in a drop of show line blood into a working line dog.
> 
> But, take it for what's worth.


I started with two showline dogs Tiago. Didn't have one thing to do with show quality, points or anything else of that nature. What peaked my interest is that the dam of my pup was retired the day she got her only title because of her aggression in the ring. It was the fire that I was interested in. Then spent years breeding them away from the standard so they could actually run and work to suit me. I really had no interest in maintaining a standard made by folks that never worked a dog in their lives. But, they could "talk" a good game.


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

I understand and have farmer friends who breed cattle dogs the same way... Its interesting to see the difference when show dogs come to be tested on cattle vs their out of standard dogs.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Tiago Fontes said:


> Since I do not live in the USA, here is my question:
> 
> What is being done by the AKC in order to achieve this?
> 
> ...


OK. So it doesn't matter what the dog looks like, only that it works? This is more to my liking. I have a boxer that does some work. I like the way the boxer looks, and have him because he works. Then it doesn't matter where what you like comes from though, show line or working if you breed for traits, not pedigrees. That was my point earlier.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> OK. So it doesn't matter what the dog looks like, only that it works? This is more to my liking. I have a boxer that does some work. I like the way the boxer looks, and have him because he works. Then it doesn't matter where what you like comes from though, show line or working if you breed for traits, not pedigrees. That was my point earlier.


Of course you are taking the stand that only showline are representative of the breeds. Breeding for those looks is why they don't work.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Of course you are taking the stand that only showline are representative of the breeds. Breeding for those looks is why they don't work.



How am I taking that stand?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Sounds like the assumption is based on the fact that Tiago wouldn't use a showline dog he doesn't care what the dog looks like. Maybe I am misreading it.

I am sure Tiago looks at the conformation (build) of the dog with the other particulars he is looking for as the build is as important as any of the particulars. Dogs that can't move corrctly, can work well. That is one of the problem with many showline dogs. They are built to look good walking a flat floor in a circle....not working.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I've been to two SV (show line) Nationals to watch. The protection routine is one of the worst displays you'll see in the dog world. 
Of the 80+ dogs that did the routine there were maybe 5-6 that would be worth bringing home. 
The people on the side line were damn near praying that these SchHII and SchHIII dogs would even engage the helper. Many didn't!
Ivan did a nice job with Apache. He'd do a nice job with any dog because he's that good but you will still see a difference in performance between the average working line SchH III and the average show line SchH III. 
Top level of show vs working and there isn't even a close second. Don't care who trained it!


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

bob scott said:


> i've been to two sv (show line) nationals to watch. The protection routine is one of the worst displays you'll see in the dog world.
> Of the 80+ dogs that did the routine there were maybe 5-6 that would be worth bringing home.
> The people on the side line were damn near praying that these schhii and schhiii dogs would even engage the helper. Many didn't!
> Ivan did a nice job with apache. He'd do a nice job with any dog because he's that good but you will still see a difference in performance between the average working line schh iii and the average show line schh iii.
> Top level of show vs working and there isn't even a close second. Don't care who trained it!



amen!!


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> Would you breed any dog based on a perfect protection score anyway?


Not on *a* perfect score, but some perfect score*s* would definitely make think about it.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Tiago Fontes said:


> I think I've read 80 points in protection... Would you consider that successful?


For this dog I would be thrilled to get 80pts, as was Ivan. The dog did the best that he good do. And when a dog gives his best, how can that not be successful? 

But the point of me bringing up Apache is that you have one of the best IPO trainers in the world handpicking a Showline GSD (the breed the sport was made for) and this was the best score the dog could get. Do you think he could of done better with a Hovawart? =;


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Sounds like the assumption is based on the fact that Tiago wouldn't use a showline dog he doesn't care what the dog looks like. Maybe I am misreading it.
> 
> I am sure Tiago looks at the conformation (build) of the dog with the other particulars he is looking for as the build is as important as any of the particulars. Dogs that can't move corrctly, can work well. That is one of the problem with many showline dogs. They are built to look good walking a flat floor in a circle....not working.


 
Correct interpretation of my words. I look for proper working structure, not words written on a standard in which dogs were never PROPERLY field trialed, through hard testing and working life longevity.

As an achievement, I applaud the fact that a showline dog was brought to this level by such an accomplished trainer. 

However, although I enjoy training, it is my belief that genetics are far more important than any training techniques we bring in order to improve the dogs. Training skills are important, but much more important is proper genetics. 

The only reason why I said "this dog doesnt belong there", is because of its genetics and selection... We all know how schH has been tailored to satisfy showline breeders with inferior dogs. If people wish to give credibility back to the sport, IMO, they should bring the best individuals (genetically wise) to elevate the level of competition. To me, sport is more about selection of proper dogs than showing my skills as a trainer (Im a novice trainer, so please take it for whats worth). 

However, I can see when a proper dog is brought on the field and that is what fascinates me in the dog game... The stronger the dog, the more I like it. Training skills are fun, but there is nothing better than working with a dog that is strong in all areas of work and that you can "squeeze a lot of juice" out of it, just because he was meant for it... That is the beauty of dog training and selection for me. 

Only my opinion,

Tiago


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Christopher Smith said:


> For this dog I would be thrilled to get 80pts, as was Ivan. The dog did the best that he good do. And when a dog gives his best, how can that not be successful?
> 
> But the point of me bringing up Apache is that you have one of the best IPO trainers in the world handpicking a Showline GSD (the breed the sport was made for) and this was the best score the dog could get. Do you think he could of done better with a Hovawart? =;


 
Success of an individual does not mean success of a type... And 80 points is not really that much of a success, IMO. I'm sorry, but there is nothing about this dog that I find successful, except for the handler being able of SKILFULLY training a dog to compete. The best his genetics coupled with training excellence gave him was 80 points... To me, that is not good enough (speaking of the dog). 

I dont think he could have done better with a Hovawart, but I AM POSITIVE that he would have done much better with a nice Jack Russell Terrier. Understand my point? 

It shouldnt be about training skills only... It should be about good genetics and proper training. 

And I second the "amen" comment to Bob's post. 


Regards


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Sounds like the assumption is based on the fact that Tiago wouldn't use a showline dog he doesn't care what the dog looks like. Maybe I am misreading it.
> 
> I am sure Tiago looks at the conformation (build) of the dog with the other particulars he is looking for as the build is as important as any of the particulars. Dogs that can't move corrctly, can work well. That is one of the problem with many showline dogs. They are built to look good walking a flat floor in a circle....not working.



It's your assumption. What do you mean sounds like?


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Tiago Fontes said:


> It shouldnt be about training skills only... It should be about good genetics and proper training.


Anytime a person reaches *their* goal they are successful, IMO. You can't define what success is for another person. And if a dog uses all of his training and genetics and is only capable of 80pts and then goes out and gets 80pts, he's successful. 

As to the rest of your post, you are tilting at windmills.


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Christopher Smith said:


> Anytime a person reaches *their* goal they are successful, IMO. You can't define what success is for another person. And if a dog uses all of his training and genetics and is only capable of 80pts and then goes out and gets 80pts, he's successful.
> 
> As to the rest of your post, you are tilting at windmills.


 
Thats right. Thats also the reason why there are higher standards and lower standards. 
I guess you and I have different standards. 

So I understand things a bit better, because he's a successful dog in your opinion, does that qualify him as a good dog?

A good comparison would be: a jockey takes a donkey to the kentucky derby... end of the race, not surprisingly, donkey and jockey are last. Donkey used all of his training and genetics to win the race, but didnt... He was only capable of finishing last... He was successful? 

I think success should be measured in equal conditions... When measured in equal conditions, the winner is successful. 


Regards


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Tiago Fontes said:


> Thats right. Thats also the reason why there are higher standards and lower standards.
> I guess you and I have different standards.
> 
> So I understand things a bit better, because he's a successful dog in your opinion, does that qualify him as a good dog?
> ...


It's up to the owner to say if the dog is successful or not. Do I want a dog like him? No. But my opinion, as to the dog being successful, dosen't matter because it's not my dog.

BTW, what was your last protection score at a championship?


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

No score... I should be able to trial my first dog in one year. 

As I mentioned several times, novice trainer and handler.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Tiago Fontes said:


> No score... I should be able to trial my first dog in one year.


So if you don't get a V score, when and if you ever even make it to a championship, does that make you and your dog a failure?


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Tiago, let me give you a little advise. Don't talk shit until you have walked the centerline. You can have opinions put they should be kept to yourself.


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

The question you pose, requires a "black or white" answer, which leads me to think that you want to have your way in our discussion. Its ok, because it does not really matter if I'm right or wrong. My day is still good and I have a dog training weekend just a few hours away :grin:. 

Here is why: 
I never questioned Ivan's skills as a trainer... Rather mentioned that what he did was a good achievement. 

What I simply questioned was the dog's quality and how success was measured in this specific trial... I am not comparing my skills with Ivan's. He made the dog give everything it had inside... I would never be able of bringing so much out of that dog.


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Christopher Smith said:


> Tiago, let me give you a little advise. Don't talk shit until you have walked the centerline. You can have opinions put they should be kept to yourself.


 
Christopher, I gladly accept your advice. However, I am not talking shit and I will certainly walk the centerline as a hobby, because my REAL profession/job is as a lawyer and my time is limited when it comes to training dogs. 

My opinions, unless considered disrespectful, will be shared if I so feel like it and not kept for myself. I have never intended to be disrespectful towards anyone on this forum in any of the threads I have participated in. 

Read and analyse things properly, before trying to lecture me on manners. 


Regards and have a nice weekend


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## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

Tiago Fontes said:


> No score... I should be able to trial my first dog in one year.
> 
> As I mentioned several times, novice trainer and handler.


AHhahahahahahahha...haha!


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Tiago Fontes said:


> My opinions, unless considered disrespectful, will be shared if I so feel like it and not kept for myself.


They are disrespectful but you are too much of a novice to see that it's disrespectful. That's why I gave you the advise. I don't think you are bad person or anything but you will alienate a lot of potential allies and friends saying things that are offensive to people that have walked the walk. What you are doing is like a virgin trying to tell a hooker how she should run her business and please her customers. You should at least have a couple slap and tickle sessions before you form such a solid opinion.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> It's up to the owner to say if the dog is successful or not. Do I want a dog like him? No. But my opinion, as to the dog being successful, dosen't matter because it's not my dog.
> 
> BTW, what was your last protection score at a championship?


Christopher....what was your last score at a championship?

Tiago has his opinions on dogs, you and everyone else has theirs. May as well get used to it.

Tiago views dogs much the same way I do, if they aren't in the game, why waste the time. Most here are not that cut-n-dried about it......

As far as Apache and Ivan go, he may have trained Apache just to see if he was good enough to do it and for no other reason. Only Ivan can answer that.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> As far as Apache and Ivan go, he may have trained Apache just to see if he was good enough to do it and for no other reason. Only Ivan can answer that.


Don, I have talked to Ivan about this dog. And he says that the dog is what he is and he was very happy that the dog got 80pts because he feels that the dog gave his best.

My last score at a championship was a 93pt FH. 

Now go pray to the gods of tooth enamel that your dogs bite. Your opinion about sport means less than nil.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

LOL Sorry Chistopher, but, praying won't change a thing. Also, I am glad you have been to the championships. That beats the last one that I asked what he had done. LOL


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> LOL Sorry Chistopher, but, praying won't change a thing. Also, I am glad you have been to the championships. That beats the last one that I asked what he had done. LOL


Ok you won't pray, but at least work the dog a few times in pray drive before the Judgement Day.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> Don, I have talked to Ivan about this dog. And he says that the dog is what he is and he was very happy that the dog got 80pts because he feels that the dog gave his best.
> 
> My last score at a championship was a 93pt FH.
> nil.


That's a damn good score and I'd take that any day!!!! 
Some dogs just aren't as compliant and for that matter just not as good as others but you have to play the cards you are given in some cases! I'm assuming if Ivan got 80 points with that dog than I'd be happy with 50


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Timothy Stacy said:


> ...you have to play the cards you are given in some cases!


I agree. The hardest thing in dog sport is to accept your dogs limitations and be be happy with what you have.


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