# Progesterone Testing - what do you do ...



## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

What do you do when you have a bitch that will NOT allow blood to be taken?? She was fine at first, but has gotten progressively worse about it (probably due to the fact that the techs absolutely SUCK at hitting her veins), and now refuses to sit still for it. Is there another way, or at this point do you just mildly sedate her with a little gas each time or something??


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Kristen Cabe said:


> What do you do when you have a bitch that will NOT allow blood to be taken?? She was fine at first, but has gotten progressively worse about it (probably due to the fact that the techs absolutely SUCK at hitting her veins), and now refuses to sit still for it. Is there another way, or at this point do you just mildly sedate her with a little gas each time or something??


 
Do it yourself and take it to the vet, thats what I do, much easier!


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

They also have strips for that that just need a swab and no blood/needle that work great!


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Unless you are doing AI I don't understand if you have a stud on standby why you would even need to do progesterone testing. The stud will know when she is ready to rock. After the 7th to 9th day or so when the male is laying over top of her crate drooling and won't leave her alone .. its time. Cheaper than a vet visit as well.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Why? Because the male is not local and I have to take time off work to drive her down there. Not all of us have our own stud dogs. Also, she's always been a late breeder, so the 'rule of thumb' about breeding on day 11 doesn't work for her. It's day 16 now. She was only at 2.8ng on day 10, and 4.5ng on day 13. Ovulation doesn't occur until after 5ng. I'm hoping she ovulated Sunday or Monday, but I have no way of knowing now, because she wouldn't let them take blood yesterday. Because she missed the last time we tried, and then went through another season after that due to the stud dog not being available when she was ready, this is pretty much my last shot with her, being that she's 7.5 years old.


How do you do it yourself, Jody? How accurate are the strips?


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Honestly I'd just put a muzzle on her, then get the blood drawn. I understand her not want to cooperate anymore, especially if they suck at hitting the vein, but at the same time when it comes to this kind of thing I didn't ask for my dogs opinion. I told them to hold still, and that's what is going to happen. If it takes a couple of techs to help out, so be it, once the muzzle is on there isn't much she can do anyway.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

We have a nut case of a GSD, that squirms and fights so I chain him very shortly to the leg of the vet's table. Once this is done and he realises no way out, they can take blood.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Kristen Cabe said:


> Why? Because the male is not local and I have to take time off work to drive her down there. Not all of us have our own stud dogs. Also, she's always been a late breeder, so the 'rule of thumb' about breeding on day 11 doesn't work for her. It's day 16 now. She was only at 2.8ng on day 10, and 4.5ng on day 13. Ovulation doesn't occur until after 5ng. I'm hoping she ovulated Sunday or Monday, but I have no way of knowing now, because she wouldn't let them take blood yesterday. Because she missed the last time we tried, and then went through another season after that due to the stud dog not being available when she was ready, this is pretty much my last shot with her, being that she's 7.5 years old.
> 
> 
> How do you do it yourself, Jody? How accurate are the strips?


Kristin,

I would've started the AIs or seeing if she would stand with the 2.8 and definitely the 4.5. The numbers can change drastically within a day's time.

Terrasita


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

I have definitely seen them drop back down from almost five before going back up and hitting five. However my vet would have us take blood daily once we passed 3.

If you cant get the blood but either a light sedation or muzzle, I have heard of some folks doing the smears.... Ive never tried it, dont know how accurate, but it is an option.

Good luck to you, 

t


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Muzzle her (this will let whoever is doing the draw less nervous about being bit, which will hopefully help) and have the doctor do a jugular stick or from the lateral saphenous on the back leg. Some dogs just suck to draw from. Are they shaving the leg?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Ship the bitch down to the stud and stop worrying about it. Stud dogs know when it is time. I can't believe that you are having a problem with a dog getting blood drawn. I have yet to have a dog notice it. Maybe that should tell you something about what you are going to breed.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> once the muzzle is on there isn't much she can do anyway.



ROTFLMAO! So you say! She WAS muzzled this last time. She does not try to bite. She bucks and flips and alligator death rolls. There were three of us holding her and one trying to poke. It was not happening. They tried from every available vein, including the jugular, which was where they got it from on Friday. They've tried with and without shaving, and even had her backed into a corner so there was nowhere for her to go. She kicked one tech in the gut with her front foot and rolled onto her back and began kicking with all four feet. 

Whatever, Jeff. Let someone poke and dig and poke and dig on you because they can't hit a vein enough times and you'd not be too keen on being poked anymore, either. She's not always been this difficult. My veins are hard to hit sometimes, so I know what it feels like and it is not pleasant.

Terrasita, I took her to breed today (got a 15min tie), and am taking her back in on Thursday. That should cover all bases, I think. I'm just asking in case I'm able to breed her one more time after this.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I had an idiot, I mean vet tech stab my dog 8 times in one session, and he was looking at me, or licking her hair the entire time.

The word shitter comes to mind Kristen. I mean this in the most serious way. I would not breed a dog that got all faggoty just because it got taken to the vet a couple of times.

You can do what you want, but you should seriously take that kind of shit into consideration. Otherwise you will be rescueing dogs that you brought into this world. I would kind of think that would suck.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I had an idiot, I mean vet tech stab my dog 8 times in one session, and he was looking at me, or licking her hair the entire time.


I don't doubt that, but how many sessions did you take that dog in for afterwards, though? Like I said, she has not always been this way. The first three or four times she was in for blood draws, she was fine. She's just gotten to the point where she's tired of being stuck and dug around on, and I frankly don't blame her. You'd think the techs would have gotten better at it as much as they've gotten to practice, but they still suck.



> The word shitter comes to mind Kristen. I mean this in the most serious way. I would not breed a dog that got all faggoty just because it got taken to the vet a couple of times.
> 
> You can do what you want, but you should seriously take that kind of shit into consideration. Otherwise you will be rescueing dogs that you brought into this world. I would kind of think that would suck.


Your opinion is your opinion; I'll take to heart more the opinions of those who have seen and caught this dog over the opinion of someone who has not, though. Just because she's finally decided she's had enough of incompetent vet techs does not make her a shitter any more than saying that all dogs with titles are not (shitters). 

It's not like I have to drag her into the Vet's office with her tail between her legs, or anything like that. She's perfectly fine until she's stuck. And because they've failed so many times in the past, she knows what's coming next - them digging around for the vein - and she says, 'nope, I'm not having any more of that.' It's no different than utilizing poor training techniques and accidentally rewarding or correcting at the wrong time, enough times in a row, and ending up with a dog that does, or doesn't do, something other than what you're trying to accomplish because it's been rewarded or corrected for that action with enough repetition in the past for it to have stuck in their minds. Just like a dog barking in a crate can learn to keep barking until the owner gives in and lets it out, or that it does no good to keep barking so it shuts up.


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## Wawashkashi Tashi (Aug 25, 2009)

Kristen,
If I were you, I'd definitely start some counter-conditioning at home.. either with a food-reward or ball, etc.. whatever your bitch finds most rewarding. Like training anything, start with the smallest step, reward the hell outta the success, & build on that. Pick her leg up & restrain her paw for a sec, then release her to her reward, after that go to holding the vein off, etc... If you don't know how to do that, I'm sure one of the techs at your vets can show you on another dog/cat. Once she she's GREAT with the restraint, get a few needles from your vet & practice pricking her with it, then rewarding. It's amazing how good they can become for painful procedures once they know they WILL be rewarded for appropriate behavior. 
I start my pups off with "rewarded torture" (lol) & can draw blood on my own dogs with no one restraining them, & have had a wound "cut down" about 2" with a scapel with no sedation/restraint on my female Boerboel.
This is pretty much the same thing that we've done with non-domestic animals in zoos (etc) to get compliance for regular blood-draws, husbandry, etc. Believe me, if it works on a wild animal, it works on a dog! ;-)
I'm pretty sure I'm not telling you anything you don't know, but sometimes when we get "activated" over problems, it's helpful if somebody can point shit out to us that although we *know*, we're a bit too ticked to be thinking about... Also, in the future, insist that the vet (or a licensed tech) pull your dog's blood.
Anyhow, I hope the advice is taken in the constructive manner in which it's given! Good Luck! Tashi


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Put a muzzle on and get the bitch in a head lock...


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Joby, see post #12. The dog WAS muzzled, in a head lock, and backed into a corner. None of that kept her from rolling and kicking, etc. 

Tashi, I guess that's something I might want to consider doing in the future. This is likely the last time this particular bitch is going to be bred, due to her age.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Kristen Cabe said:


> Joby, see post #12. The dog WAS muzzled, in a head lock, and backed into a corner. None of that kept her from rolling and kicking, etc.
> 
> Tashi, I guess that's something I might want to consider doing in the future. This is likely the last time this particular bitch is going to be bred, due to her age.


Sorry skimmed again.
My bad.
I'd say put her on the table and get a stronger person  But we weren't there....
Glad you got the tie done...


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## Dana McMahan (Apr 5, 2006)

My bitch has veins that are nearly impossible to hit and we had trouble with her drawing blood for Progesterone as well. Once we switched to drawing from the jugular it was much easier and they hit it the first time every time. And I would also call around and find someone who has a stud dog to indicate on her. I had been doing progesterone every other day ....hundreds of dollars worth. This last time I was doing an AI I let my friend's mali indicate ... he hit it right on the first day. Saves the dog a bunch of unpleasant visits and saved me several hundred dollars.


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## Wendy Schmitt (Apr 29, 2009)

I would send her for breeding now. Fresh semen stays good in the bitch for about 4 days so if you breed tomorrow and then breed 2 or3 days later you can't miss. I do agree as females age they tend to ovulate later in the cycle.

Good Luck!


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Progesterone testing??? What will they think of next?


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Progesterone testing has been done for many, many years, Don. It's not a new invention. :lol:

Wendy, the dog was bred going on 30 days ago now.


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