# Control and PP...



## Courtney Guthrie

So, I was reading a thread on here and came across something I found interesting as I've been told recently that I have too much control over my dog. I do have a lot of control over him and he knows it. I thought that control in the sport/real world was a good thing and that there was never too much. I have really talked to trainers and breeders etc. of working dogs and have came to the realization that you can have too much control over a dog BUT that with a very controlled dog, you can see other things that you may have waited a long time to see or never seen without the control. Which brings me to this comment...



Kyle Sprag said:


> With control there is always a sacrafice, many dogs are monsters until control is added. Control can break down a dog and expose underlying weakness.


I've also learned that in the PP world, most of the people say that they don't want to do this or that as it is too controlled and their dog works in the real world. 

Now, to me this makes no sense, I can see where in my situation with my sport dog that too much control at a young age will affect how his OB looks later in his life. BUT he is a sport dog, to me a PP dog needs to be absolutely controlled and listen to every command they are told. That is a PP dog to me, a dog that will bite a person with no equipment and has the control and OB to go out in public and mingle. A dog like I've seen touted on here lately to me is a Guard Dog, a dog that you just train to bite, never do any OB with it(any OB that counts) and is really a liability as they are truly dangerous as there is no control. 

Am I wrong in my thinking? Is there such a thing as too much control in any dog sport or PP? 

Courtney


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## Butch Cappel

OB or control does nothing to change a dogs personality or behaviors except for the better. The only thing that negatively affects a dog doing OB, is the stress involved in the training of the dog, too much stress makes a difference not the control itself.

If you think a PP dog doesn't need more control than a sport dog because they are in the real world, then you have never trained a PP, security, or police dog for the real world. Take your sport dog to a trial and see what happens if he bites a passing contestant.

Now take your PP dog to the exit door of a Wal-Mart and see what happens if he bites an exiting grandma, then think about which one needs the most control. 

Butch Cappel
www.k9ps.com


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## Kyle Sprag

It would be like training or working on a call off when you dog only goes 3/4 of the way down the field and comes back or takes a few steps of the line and looks back.


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## Thomas Barriano

Kyle Sprag said:


> It would be like training or working on a call off when you dog only goes 3/4 of the way down the field and comes back or takes a few steps of the line and looks back.


Way too many PP types think control is keeping a hold of the leash. When I say control I mean off leash voice control.

Helmut Raiser talks about the need to balance drive and compulsion. I think you can substiture control for compulsion and the same need for balance applies.


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## Courtney Guthrie

Butch Cappel said:


> OB or control does nothing to change a dogs personality or behaviors except for the better. The only thing that negatively affects a dog doing OB, is the stress involved in the training of the dog, too much stress makes a difference not the control itself.
> 
> If you think a PP dog doesn't need more control than a sport dog because they are in the real world, then you have never trained a PP, security, or police dog for the real world. Take your sport dog to a trial and see what happens if he bites a passing contestant.
> 
> Now take your PP dog to the exit door of a Wal-Mart and see what happens if he bites an exiting grandma, then think about which one needs the most control.
> 
> Butch Cappel
> http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/www.k9ps.com


Butch, If you read my post,* I say that I feel a PP dog needs absolute control and OB as they are more of a liability than a sport dog. *

I understand that stress on the dog is what changes but the more control you have over a dog, the more stressed they are IF they have weak nerves or are nervy in general. My dog is neither weak nerved or nervy in general. I push dogs REALLY hard(I have two banged up hands because of that and a handler aggressive/defensive dog not mine.), I want to see what they are made of and what their threshholds are. My boy is a great dog to me, he isn't anywhere near as good as some member's dogs here but he probably could be with a more experienced handler. 

Kyle- That makes sense. So there is never "too much" control over a PP dog then right? 

ETA- Thomas- I meant OFF Leash control when I posted that. I'd be happy to see some on leash control of some PP dogs though too! 

Courtney


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## maggie fraser

Genuine question;

Is there such a thing as a trained dog without ob/control.... in any discipline?


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## Courtney Guthrie

maggie fraser said:


> Genuine question;
> 
> Is there such a thing as a trained dog without ob/control.... in any discipline?


IMHO- NO.

But that opens a whole new convo as then a lot of the "PP" dogs I see are not "TRAINED" at all, just throw on a sleeve, agitate to the point of a bite and reward. So, are they really considered PP dogs then or junk yard/guard dogs? I would personally consider a dog that is only trained in bitework with no obvious OB done to be a guard/junk yard dog.


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## Jerry Lyda

Control is a MUST with a PPD. If there is no control then where can you take him to protect you? No where. The dog you can't take anywhere is a guard dog and nothing more. All dogs have teeth therefore all dogs are a liability. A trained dog is too but you can have a little better piece of mind when you can control him, BUT never let your guard down. Murphys law takes effect when you do. Owners of PPD have to be responsible. There are people out there with what they call a PPD just waiting on the chance to prove they have one.


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## Courtney Guthrie

Jerry Lyda said:


> Control is a MUST with a PPD. If there is no control then where can you take him to protect you? No where. The dog you can't take anywhere is a guard dog and nothing more. All dogs have teeth therefore all dogs are a liability. A trained dog is too but you can have a little better piece of mind when you can control him, BUT never let your guard down. Murphys law takes effect when you do. Owners of PPD have to be responsible. There are people out there with what they call a PPD just waiting on the chance to prove they have one.


Thanks Jerry. I was hoping you'd chime in! So my thinking that PP dogs need more control than the average sport dog is not off then. 

I've just read a lot of threads in here lately about PP dogs and to me the person is describing Guard dogs, dogs that are never safe in public. 

Courtney


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## Candy Eggert

Jerry Lyda said:


> Control is a MUST with a PPD. If there is no control then where can you take him to protect you? No where. The dog you can't take anywhere is a guard dog and nothing more. All dogs have teeth therefore all dogs are a liability. A trained dog is too but you can have a little better piece of mind when you can control him, BUT never let your guard down. Murphys law takes effect when you do. Owners of PPD have to be responsible. There are people out there with what they call a PPD just waiting on the chance to prove they have one.


Doodle Bug is NEVER off the chain ;-)~ How is the little black and white rat killer doing Jerry? I miss seeing pics of the little bugger


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## Adam Rawlings

Control is key and being stable is more important IMO.

The neighbors compressor for their freezer was on the fritz a couple of days ago and the tech.'s needed to acess the roof through my shop. My dog barked and snarled at them through the window, but once a let them in he was calm. He followed them and watched them for a few minutes and then went to his favorite spot. They laughed and joked with me about him being a "real manstopper" on their way out. I like the fact that he doesn't give people that impression, but it's nice to know he's there just in case.


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## Lee Robinson

IMO, if a dog starts to show weaknesses after ob is added, then the ob was done wrong. 

So, that would be a weakness in the trainer more often than in the dog. If the dog was great BEFORE control was added, but after it is not so great...then either the trainer/handler isn't clear and the dog is looking for clarity OR too much compulsion was used.


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## Jerry Lyda

With clean communication HEAVY complusion is not needed. The bond between the handler and dog is important. The dog has to see you as the pack leader and not a kick butt trainer. You have to be fair. The dog will work for you just give him the right direction to go. OB is important.

Most heavy corrections come from trainers that have exhausted their knowledge.


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## Anna Kasho

Courtney Guthrie said:


> I push dogs REALLY hard(I have two banged up hands because of that and a handler aggressive/defensive dog not mine.), I want to see what they are made of and what their threshholds are.


Was this the mal? Did he finally bite you?


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## Meng Xiong

So... then it comes back to the quality of the dog. A PPD dog is going to have to be able to handle the pressures that come with OB/Control otherwise it'll fold under the pressure. Is that what you guys are refering to as "weakness?"


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## Bob Scott

Jerry Lyda said:


> With clean communication HEAVY complusion is not needed. The bond between the handler and dog is important. The dog has to see you as the pack leader and not a kick butt trainer. You have to be fair. The dog will work for you just give him the right direction to go. OB is important.
> 
> Most heavy corrections come from trainers that have exhausted their knowledge.



100% in agreement with Jerry! Good training has nothing to do with heavy compulsion.
Call it a PPD, PSD, sport dog or the family pet. If it's bite trained or just has a penchant to bite, without off lead control you have nothing more then a junkyard dog.


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## Courtney Guthrie

Anna Kasho said:


> Was this the mal? Did he finally bite you?


No, Actually. lol Judge's breeder has a really sharp 12 month old GSD. She had him out working OB around people to try and get his little ass in check, he is also DA. We were standing there talking and she was making him sit, down etc. while we were all standing around, he saw another dog started acting up and she corrected him, when she did she let the leash go slack and instead of grabbing at her(She was in the opposite direction of the other dog) He grabbed me. 

I personally like the Ivan B. methods for OB. They work really well for me and my dog. I try and keep OB training all positive or at least mostly positive. 

Courtney


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Thanks Jerry. I was hoping you'd chime in! So my thinking that PP dogs need more control than the average sport dog is not off then. 

Well, yeah it is. There is theory, and then there is the reality of PP dog people.

All you need to do is watch a couple of PP dog tournaments and you will see what I mean. Generally speaking the dog just doesn't heel, and would not be able to hold himself if the helper was to stand near the handler and dog.

When I talk about thresholds, this is one example I am talking about. The dog cannot stay in drive when it HAS to hold itself. Now, the dog is not in drive, and is asked to bite. THis is what people refer to when they say that under control the dogs melt.

If the PP dogs were really all that under control, then, well, lets face it, they would be doing sport, instead of bowing under the amazing weight of a dog that cannot cut it in sport. LOL


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## Jerry Lyda

I see a video in the making. LOL should I or shouldn't I?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Jerry, one group doesn't make a whole. You don't count on this one. You could show a video of a call off if you really wanted.


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## Jerry Lyda

Ok , we'll do that. How about a couple?


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## Courtney Guthrie

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Thanks Jerry. I was hoping you'd chime in! So my thinking that PP dogs need more control than the average sport dog is not off then.
> 
> Well, yeah it is. There is theory, and then there is the reality of PP dog people.
> 
> All you need to do is watch a couple of PP dog tournaments and you will see what I mean. Generally speaking the dog just doesn't heel, and would not be able to hold himself if the helper was to stand near the handler and dog.
> 
> When I talk about thresholds, this is one example I am talking about. The dog cannot stay in drive when it HAS to hold itself. Now, the dog is not in drive, and is asked to bite. THis is what people refer to when they say that under control the dogs melt.
> 
> If the PP dogs were really all that under control, then, well, lets face it, they would be doing sport, instead of bowing under the amazing weight of a dog that cannot cut it in sport. LOL


I guess I'm missing something. I don't have the years of experience that most of you do so I'm still learning and probably always will be. lol 

I thought that the PP dog was supposed to be able to be controlled in any situation and called off if neccessary etc. I realize that all trainers aren't like Jerry and his boys. I have just always thought that PP trained dogs were "SUPPOSED" to be more controlled and obedient than even a sport dog. 

IDK.

Courtney


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## Connie Sutherland

Jerry Lyda said:


> I see a video in the making. LOL should I or shouldn't I?


You should. 

Everyone wants to see a video by Them Lyda Boys. 8) :lol:



Courtney Guthrie said:


> .... I realize that all trainers aren't like Jerry and his boys. ...


All the more reason for videos.


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## Chris McDonald

This is a good question and a good thread. 
As far as sports go when you call of a dog that is ¾ of the way there does the speed that the dog returns to you count? My dog will run like heck after the target but when called off he drags ass back to me. I think he is holding a silent protest


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## Khoi Pham

Chris McDonald said:


> This is a good question and a good thread.
> As far as sports go when you call of a dog that is ¾ of the way there does the speed that the dog returns to you count? My dog will run like heck after the target but when called off he drags ass back to me. I think he is holding a silent protest


Have another decoy beat the crap out of you after you do a call off, do that a few times and he won't be dragging his ass back to you. (-:


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## Chris McDonald

Khoi Pham said:


> Have another decoy beat the crap out of you after you do a call off, do that a few times and he won't be dragging his ass back to you. (-:


its an idea!


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## Jerry Lyda

Good post Khoi LOL .
The way we do PPD and PSD - Call off, the handler and dog can train several ways, that's up to the handler. A call off just that, call the dog off before he bites. We don't care if the dog downs, returns or does a hold and guard. He just simply can't bite. Jim and others on the police side can elaborate more on this but they had rather their dog not to loose ground and come back to the handler. If the bad guy runs again then they have to make that ground back up again. That's a waste and a liability of someone getting shot or hurt. Of course all depts. don't do this but that is up to the dept. On the APPDA PSD side we want the police handler to do what their SOPs call for. We don't try to re-invent the wheel here. They can trial by their SOPs.


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## Kyle Sprag

Khoi Pham said:


> Have another decoy beat the crap out of you after you do a call off, do that a few times and he won't be dragging his ass back to you. (-:


you need to be very carfull with this as in trial during the call off a decoy may not be "beating the crap out of you" or even in sight and the dog will know this and NOT call of or go head hunting for a Judge, photographer, steward etc...........


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## Kyle Sprag

Pedro's Call Off or Stop Attack FR Style


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## Chris McDonald

Thanks Jerry, I guess the real right way in this situation is the one you want for your dog. My dog does not do the bark and hold thing. If called out he is supposed to come to me. Coming to me after a fight is typically one of his least enthusiastic moments. This is one of those things I can certainly live with but I wouldn’t mind him giving me a bit more of a sprint.


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## Khoi Pham

Kyle Sprag said:


> you need to be very carfull with this as in trial during the call off a decoy may not be "beating the crap out of you" or even in sight and the dog will know this and NOT call of or go head hunting for a Judge, photographer, steward etc...........


This will help with the speed, not to train the call off, if you call off the dog and he went head hunting for a judge or whoever then he doesn't know the call off, it shouldn't be use to train the call off, call off is just that, stop what you are doing and come back, I mix it up my training, I use 2 decoys to get him into a habbit of coming back fast then with no decoys, as soon as he gets back to me, I reward with sending him down field again for a bite, I'm sure others use tugs or whatever as reward to also speed up the speed of coming back but with my dog, he rather bite a decoy than a tug so that is how I reward him.


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## Kyle Sprag

Khoi Pham said:


> This will help with the speed, not to train the call off, if you call off the dog and he went head hunting for a judge or whoever then he doesn't know the call off, it shouldn't be use to train the call off, call off is just that, stop what you are doing and come back, I mix it up my training, I use 2 decoys to get him into a habbit of coming back fast then with no decoys, as soon as he gets back to me, I reward with sending him down field again for a bite, I'm sure others use tugs or whatever as reward to also speed up the speed of coming back but with my dog, he rather bite a decoy than a tug so that is how I reward him.


 
I understand what you are saying but I have seen what I wrote about A lot during trial by training with two Decoys, doesn't take long for the dog to figure out that the 2nd guy is not there. If what you are doing works for you that is great. A step you are doing I think is often missed is the dog comming back to YOU before he/she can be rewarded with a bite. Not all that much different than running blinds in Sch, will be much more accurate if the dog comes and check in with you rather that Free Wheel the blinds.


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## Khoi Pham

I train 1 step at the time, first is the speed then the correct position, don't assumed what I wrote to help with speed and my dog doesn't know how to come back to fuss before I will send him out again,if I have time I will shoot some video tomorrow, if you can get the dog to understand the faster he gets back to heel position the faster he gets to bite then once it is imprinted in his head, it doesn't matter if he see no decoys or 5 decoys on the field, he will come back fast.


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## Jim Nash

For us before we get into calling the dog off a running decoy we set a good foundation on calling the dog off other things , a thrown ball , tree it's about to piss on  , anything . 

Basic Ob with the dog around the decoy helps . Call offs with the dog in a down on a 15ft lead facing a decoy and calling them back . Small progressions like that .

Depends on the dog but for most when we progress to running decoys we start the decoy a long ways off usually with a dog on a parachute chord and/ or e-collar , send the dog and quickly call the dog back without the dog even getting close to the end of the line . The dogs then rewarded with a tug , other favorite toy , bite sleeve , guy in bite sleeve or suit , etc . Whatever motivates the dog to comeback . Easy successes first with very little room for the dog to actually reward itself by getting a bite on the decoy . 

I am also amazed that there are agencies out there that don't train for a recall . 

We then progress to more challenging scenerios where it may be more tempting to disregard the recall . We use chords , e-collar , leads , etc. and use any combination of these at the same time also . Depends on the dog and scenerio we are doing .

I'm sure this isn't much different then what anyone else does .

I know some PSD trainers don't like a toy as a reward in a situation like this and like a bite reward because they fear the dogs going to be toy happy on the street in a real situation . They fear the dog may go after a toy if the badguy throws one . I can tell you that if you balance your training with a dog as it progresses in preparation for the street this isn't a problem . As we progress we have the decoy do that himself to try and distract the dog and test the dog to see if this may be a problem . Very rarely is it a problem and it's an easy one to fix .

For people who haven't worked on this the big thing is not to progress too fast . Having a failure while teaching a dog the recall is a hard thing to over come . If the dog rewards itself and gets a bite he just learned he can self reward himself by disregarding your command . 

For those who haven't worked on this ;

If you can it's always a good idea to have an avenue of escape for the decoy (not always possible I know) so if the dog disobeys it doesn't actually get a bite on the decoy . 

Blowing the dog ears off with too strong of a correction on the e-collar usually only pisses a solid dog off and makes him want to get to the decoy faster . 

Balance your training with the dog being able to get a bite (on command ) so the dog doesn't learn that a recall is coming . 

Some dogs are very good at reading environmental ques , equipment you are using , decoy behavior and of course the handler's behavior . 

I've worked with some dogs we actually had to make it up on the spur of the moment . I as the decoy never knew what it was going to be recall or bite until it happened and the handler didn't descide on it til he/she was into the scenerio . These dogs were great at looking for these ques . 

I'm sure this is nothing new to most . It was just asked what I would do so I answered .

I can't say all our dogs have fast returns . Many do and some are so fast I think the dog is going to hurt itself putting on the breaks and coming back . I never had that with both of my K9's . Both were hard heads and they turned around very wide , came back at 1/2 or 3/4's speed and looked back at the decoy alot . Their recalls are almost exactly alike .

We also have some dogs down then return to the handler . Training is pretty similar to what I stated above . It depends which style we use on what we feel would work best on certain dogs .


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## Jim Nash

For me as a Police Dog handler I would rather have a dog come back to me quickly and be focused on me . It's just been my experiance when I've had to recall my dog like this for real . There was usually alot of civilians and other Officers involved and I felt it best the dog gets back to me as quickly a f'n possible to avoid the dog getting hurt or the wrong person bitten . 

Other K9 Officers prefer a dog that keeps an eye on the suspect , which usually slows the dog down returning . On this topic , to each his/her own . In 1 scenerio this type of dog would be best in others not . 

Funny thing is both my dogs looked back at the badguy and didn't return to me full speed . Luckily everything worked out but I sure wanted those dogs back quickly in those situations .


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## Khoi Pham

Khoi Pham said:


> I train 1 step at the time, first is the speed then the correct position, don't assumed what I wrote to help with speed and my dog doesn't know how to come back to fuss before I will send him out again,if I have time I will shoot some video tomorrow, if you can get the dog to understand the faster he gets back to heel position the faster he gets to bite then once it is imprinted in his head, it doesn't matter if he see no decoys or 5 decoys on the field, he will come back fast.


I forgot that I already have a video from last year (-:, here is the link, 
http://www.k9workingdogs.org/k9-working-dogs-video-2
it is the 2nd part of the first video on the page, the first part is just a passive bite with active decoys, on this video I didn't have him return to heel but you can see that the dog was coming back to me, I redirected him to bite the decoy as a reward for good call off and fast return.


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## Courtney Guthrie

I understand all of what everyone has said about call offs etc. I do a lot of research on subjects that interest me but there is nothing that compares to real life experience. I don't have that in the PP world. I have sport experience but not PP. 

I guess when I think PP dog, I think the dog should have the absolute best most solid OB you can get. I'm sick of seeing these videos of "PP" dogs and reading about how the dog is really all that, "Oh but wait, no we haven't started any OB with him as he is only 3 year old." I wanted to get a clearer picture in my mind of "real" PP dogs and what everyone thought about control/OB in them. 

Jerry- I can't wait for the videos! 

Jim- I have been working with my sport dog on downing him whenever I want and and whatever he is doing. He chases cats really bad and this was my motivation for teaching him to down whenever/whereever he was and what he was doing. He does down now out of drive like chasing a cat about 80% of the time. I practice it quite a bit as I can't have him killing one of my parents or grandma's cats(if he does and they find out it'd be trouble.) I've been told by some people that this is too much for a sport dog to handle and that I should not be teaching him this. Thoughts, opinions? 

Courtney


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## Jim Nash

I'm not a sport dog trainer but I feel a solid recall is important for everyone .


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## Kyle Sprag

Jim Nash said:


> I'm not a sport dog trainer but I feel a solid recall is important for everyone .


 

Ahmen, that is the start of everything. I call you you come.....period!


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## Courtney Guthrie

He has a good recall. I just down him and then call him back as that way he is thinking about me, not whatever he was after. I was told that downing him before calling him back was what was too much for a sport dog. Thanks for the thoughts! 

I view the recall as a life or death command, you come and you come now, not 5 seconds later. 

Courtney


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## Jeff Oehlsen

My videographer was asleep at the wheel tonight. I called Buko off and he hit the decoy in the back with his head turned. Beautiful.


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## Matt Hammond

PPDs that do not have control are a risk to say the least. If you train your dog to bite, and do not train control then you deserve what you get. OB is a must, and should be done with drive building. You do not need to be heavy handed, just get your point across. 

When you watch the "Real PPD" vids you see a dog that has no control in drive and would bite anything that moved. May work in the back swamps of Texas but not in the rest of the USA. With out control you have nothing.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

There are swamps here ?? Do tell.


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## Gillian Schuler

Courtney Guthrie said:


> He has a good recall. I just down him and then call him back as that way he is thinking about me, not whatever he was after. I was told that downing him before calling him back was what was too much for a sport dog. Thanks for the thoughts!
> 
> I view the recall as a life or death command, you come and you come now, not 5 seconds later.
> 
> Courtney


Courtney, I'm not sure exactly how you're doing this, maybe commanding the dog in down when he chases off and then calling him to you but if this is so, I can't see what's wrong in it, especially if it works for you!

There are a lot of people out there saying "don't do this or that to a sport dog". If that's so, I'd rather lose points than lose my dog. If a dog can't take it, he won't be a very good sport dog anyway.


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## jay lyda

Heres a little vid we did a while back. We were just out messing around, but it is a call off, I sent Ichilles into a small group of people directed at the bad guy and then call him off and then the next part is really us just playing around by having him jump over some people for the bite. 

http://s85.photobucket.com/remix/pl...tname=stream85.photobucket.com&fs=1&os=1&ap=1


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## Courtney Guthrie

Gillian Schuler said:


> Courtney, I'm not sure exactly how you're doing this, maybe commanding the dog in down when he chases off and then calling him to you but if this is so, I can't see what's wrong in it, especially if it works for you!
> 
> There are a lot of people out there saying "don't do this or that to a sport dog". If that's so, I'd rather lose points than lose my dog. If a dog can't take it, he won't be a very good sport dog anyway.


I taught him down as a young puppy using Ivan B.'s methods with drives etc. I use it a lot. I started with a toy and would throw it out a little ways from us(a few feet) then I'd let him rush out to get it, but before he got there, I'd tell him Platz. We did this and then gradually worked our way up to where IF he took off after a cat, I'd tell him Platz and he'd do it. I then went to him and praised him etc. After awhile I started recalling him to me instead of going to him and I still mix it up a lot so he don't get too used to one thing. He doesn't have a problem with it and IMHO a sport dog should be able to handle as much as any other dog. 



jay lyda said:


> Heres a little vid we did a while back. We were just out messing around, but it is a call off, I sent Ichilles into a small group of people directed at the bad guy and then call him off and then the next part is really us just playing around by having him jump over some people for the bite.
> 
> http://s85.photobucket.com/remix/pl...tname=stream85.photobucket.com&fs=1&os=1&ap=1


That was great!!! 

Courtney


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## Khoi Pham

jay lyda said:


> Heres a little vid we did a while back. We were just out messing around, but it is a call off, I sent Ichilles into a small group of people directed at the bad guy and then call him off and then the next part is really us just playing around by having him jump over some people for the bite.
> 
> http://s85.photobucket.com/remix/pl...tname=stream85.photobucket.com&fs=1&os=1&ap=1


That black GS is well trained, you guys need to have a trial somewhere in the OK, TX area so we can do some of your APPTD trial. (-:


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## Chris McDonald

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> My videographer was asleep at the wheel tonight. I called Buko off and he hit the decoy in the back with his head turned. Beautiful.


 
Someone like yourself should have a camera following you at all times.


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## Connie Sutherland

Chris McDonald said:


> Someone like yourself should have a camera following you at all times.


And musical accompaniment ..... :lol:


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## Chris McDonald

Connie Sutherland said:


> And musical accompaniment ..... :lol:


 
ya, and the big word she said!


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote From Chris :
Someone like yourself should have a camera following you at all times.

Quote From Connie : And musical accompaniment

You mean you guys don't have your own theme song ?? I had a buddy do that to me one drunken night. Apparently I was funny, as I kept hearing how funny I was from people that were not with me.

Never found where he hid the tape, I was having a vomit for distance contest with some ****. I remember crushing her sad attempt, and then kicking her in the stomach and telling her what a pathetic excuse for a man she was.


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## Connie Sutherland

A vomit for distance contest? :-&


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## Konnie Hein

Must be a Texas thing?


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## jay lyda

Connie Sutherland said:


> A vomit for distance contest? :-&


Ah yes, let the ******* games begin.


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## Bob Scott

jay lyda said:


> Heres a little vid we did a while back. We were just out messing around, but it is a call off, I sent Ichilles into a small group of people directed at the bad guy and then call him off and then the next part is really us just playing around by having him jump over some people for the bite.
> 
> http://s85.photobucket.com/remix/pl...tname=stream85.photobucket.com&fs=1&os=1&ap=1


 
Excellent control on that dog Jay! ;-)


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I was in North Carolina at the time. THe whole USMC thing.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I couldn't see, but what is the difference in the dogs mind between that and a bark and hold ???? Not like the guy was running or anything. Not a call off in my mind.


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## Jerry Lyda

You're right Jeff the guy was not running. If the guy gives up he should not be running. If he is still running then why would I call the dog off? When the dog is sent to bite that's what I want him to do.If the guy is still running I still want the dog to bite.

You do bring up a good point though. What if the dog goes after the wrong person and you need him to stop? Back to the training field for us. I don't see us having a problem with this but it could be for someone that don't have the control that I truly believe we have especially with this dog Ichilles that belongs to Jay. I wouldn't have this problem with my female Lexus but I can see a lot of issues with my female Reba. Reba is no where close to the control that the others have. Rome wasn't built in a day. Control won't be finished, never. That is something that is forever worked on. I have trained Lexus like Jim had talked about. I will either down her or have her come back to me.


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## jay lyda

Normally we do have the guy running and then I send Ichilles, as soon as the guy gives up then I give his command and he will hit the brakes and usually slide into the decoy, going straight to a guard. Lately I have been increasing the movement from the decoy so he is not perfectly still, because who would be. This was just a vid that we already had so I posted it. But we can go out and make a new vid if you would like, that wouldn't be a problem. In reality Ichilles would not go after someone just for the hell of it, so I am really not too worried about it though, but on the training field he will do a call off.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

If it is personal protection and the guy is running away, why is the dog being sent in the first place ???

If the dog is sent, which I am not sure how legal that is, I am sure that if these dogs were necessary, there would be some news of the legality of the dog running free to bite someone.

All that aside, if the guy is running away, and since control is the issue, then the dog should be able to be called off.

If the guy stops moving, then how is this a call off, and not a B&H ??

To me it is a B&H and NOT a call off. I guess you would see this if the dog was given NO command, and did the same thing. Unless the guy is moving away, or threatening the dog, and the handler can call the dog off, it is just something else.

BIG terminology difference here.


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## jay lyda

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> If it is personal protection and the guy is running away, why is the dog being sent in the first place ???


Exactly, I would not send my dog. Thats a good way to loose everything you have and get sent to jail. But if you are going to train then why not train for everything? I like to have an all purpose dog, like I said before why must a dog be classified as only one thing??

You are right there is a difference, my dog is trained that when the decoy gives up before the dog gets there then he has a command that means guard, you are right about that, but its not a B&H because he doesn't bark just holds. LOL He can do a regular call off with the decoy steady running away. Its a simple down command. Like I said I know this vid isn't exactly what was being talked about but it was one thats close to the topic and I already had it.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

The big thing for me is not that you train badly or anything like that, but what you are using for terminology is not what most of us would call a call off. Neither would downing a dog halfway be a call off.

Terminology differences aside, who gives a shit as long as the dog doesn't bite.


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## Jerry Lyda

Terminology may be different not sure exactlly what you call a call off. Not that you're wrong by no means. To me a call off is to call a dog off of a bite (before he bites). The means used is up to the handler/trainer or the SOP's of the dept.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

There are how many thousands of us that know what a call off is, and then there is the PP people and their silent B&H calling it a call off.

Get serious, you know damn well that shit is NOT called a call off. You can train however you like, but don't butcher the terminology. The call off is not basic bitework, and to say that what you are doing is a call off is bullshit.


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## Jerry Lyda

OK, I've been nice, now you are getting nasty. I don't play nasty. You can either talk and discuss like a normal person or you can act like Emilo. That's up to you.

Now what the hell is your terminology of a call off?


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## Jim Nash

Sorry if this mucks this up even more but when we reacall (call off) the dog off a running suspect we do it mostly like Jeff talks about , Dog is running after fleeing suspect and is the called straight back to handler . 

With the down half way it not much different . Dogs is sent after fleeing suspect , we then find out we want to stop dog before he bites suspect so we down the dog . As soon as it downs it is immediately called back to the handler .


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## Jerry Lyda

Jim you're not mucking things up. Thanks for posting on this.

A recall is that. The dictionary says a recall is, 1. To call back 2.to remember to recollect 3. To cancel; take back. 

That's what you're doing, and in the process you sent your dog then you called off the bite.

The dictionary says a call off is; 5. To cancel (Noun)

It's just terminology: Ichilles in the video did a call off with no recall. My dog does a call off with a recall. Either way the bite is stopped. We call that a call off either way.

As stated; "and then there is the PP people and their silent B&H calling it a call off." (By the way that's not a silent B&H It's a guard and hold) And then goes on to say,"Get serious, you know damn well that shit is NOT called a call off. You can train however you like, but don't butcher the terminology. The call off is not basic bitework, and to say that what you are doing is a call off is bullshit."

So be it. I have a difference of opinion here. It can be called whatever but what the dictionary says is pretty much it. Thanks Jeff for your input.


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## jay lyda

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Terminology differences aside, who gives a shit as long as the dog doesn't bite.


So as long as the dog is called off from the bite. You are exactly right Jeff, I am so glad that we cleared this up. A call off and then recall or a call off and down or a call off and then guard, what does it matter as long as the dog was CALLED OFF. I think we are done now, a call off is just that, THE DOG DOESN'T BITE, what is done after that is preference, at this point there is no right or wrong answer. The real question is..... will your dog do a call off (being will your dog not bite after commanded not to). Even Ray Charles can see this, come on now.


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## Bob Scott

My dog can be called off a helper/decoy, rabbits, deer, cats, just about anything from a full run......Well........there are those damn sheep but were getting better. ;-)
I've NEVER seen the drive out of a dog that sheep can put in them.
It's like..like they were bred to do it.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

So here is a call off, and a special one at that. When shithead is hot, he doesn't always....lets say he is not always under control. I was happy as shit, as I was pretty sure he was gonna have to get bumped by the e-collar.

He was a good boy, and did it right. I would have been hopping up and down, but it was over a hundred at that point, and I would have passed out. LOL Fat kids do not do well in the heat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sp7tZ6eQCNA


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## Jerry Lyda

Very nice call off with a recall. You should be happy with that, it was nice.


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## Konnie Hein

(I will not make fun of Jeff's outfit or pot belly...I will not make fun of Jeff's outfit or pot belly...I will not make fun of Jeff's outfit or pot belly...)

Nice call-off, Jeff! Buko looks good!


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## Gillian Schuler

Very nice work, handsome!!

Now to Jeff. Where did you get that hat????


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Now to Jeff. Where did you get that hat????

It is a cover, civilians own hats, Marines own covers. It is very old, and very torn up, and very comfortable, but I need to make some repairs on the old boy.


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## Jerry Lyda

Here we go, terminology again. Just kidding Jeff.

Marine, that explains a lot. Glad you served from a Navy man, me. It's a cover to me too. LOL


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## Bob Scott

I'm thinking that the difference in terminology is the difference in a "call off" (before the bite) and the "out" (after the bite)......maybe?


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## Matt Grosch

I dont have an opinion, but have heard many times people state their belief that a dog that verbally 'outs' will not bite at 110% like a dog that has to be pulled off will.


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## Jerry Lyda

Not true Matt. It's all about good training.


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