# Is this possible?



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Long story short, a line of dog is reported by to be 'allergic' to sedation and die. Hip scores require sedation right? my dog is from said line. What should i check with vet to make sure my dog is not at risk??


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Peter,

Find out what type of anesthesia medication was used. Find a vet that can do your x-rays without anesthesia. My last three dogs were x-rayed for OFA without anesthesia. To prepare for this, start teaching your dog to roll over on his back and relax. 

T


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

I'm going against general australian vet advice and getting penn hip, my specialist chiro vet is in agreement, i believe it involves considerable manipulation, the vet wants sedation.

Be difficult but not impossible to contact vets of dead dogs.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Not sure if OFA = penn hip? getting the gsd done as well, the registry does not recognise penn hip.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Well personally, I don't think PennHip has anything more to offer. Don't drink the Koolaid that the DI index can't change over time. Go to the PennHip site, disregard the marketing and really look at what it says. Basically, dog comes in .30 or less--then probably won't develop HD. After that its pure guess work in that they state that a DI greater than .3 and the dog could possibly develop HD. Your dog is roughly a year old. I'd wait until Age 2 and do an OFA x-ray without anesthesia. It's particularly not worth the risk if the line of dogs he comes from has some allergy to the anesthesia agent. In researching this over the years I came across some mastiff breed that had a fairly high incidence of anesthesia allergy. You certainly don't want to put him under for anything until you get the information regarding the name and amount/method that killed the other dogs. I would hope they were monitored both for heart and other stuff throughout the process.

T


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Its not the gsd with the known issue, the other concern is emergency surgery, what then, strange town, strange vet, i may not even be present, could happen.

Yes can wait for age 2, one line of thought was 1 year then comfirm at later age, what will be will be tho.

TheGsd line has been many hip scores, assume under sedation, not aware of allergy issue.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Its not the gsd with the known issue, the other concern is emergency surgery, what then, strange town, strange vet, i may not even be present, could happen.
> 
> Yes can wait for age 2, one line of thought was 1 year then comfirm at later age, what will be will be tho.
> 
> TheGsd line has been many hip scores, assume under sedation, not aware of allergy issue.



Oh, thought you were referring to your GSD pup. Well, its hard to tell if you have the dog yet or if its one you are contemplating. In my lifetime of dogs, haven't had an emergency surgery issue and certainly nothing where I couldn't be contacted. I have prelimmed dogs before age 2. Anymore, I usually OFA my dogs around Age 3 or 4. I don't know, its been a good 10 years or so since my vet started recommending doing OFA x-rays without anesthesia if possible. Basically its about getting good positioning which may be easier with anesthesia if the dog fights it. But again, if you know that's in the line, you need to get the name of the drugs and the circumstances as to why the dogs died. 

T


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Its my 4yo curr, the dogs were all cut open from hunting so may not be allergy. You answered my question tho, allergy is possible.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Its my 4yo curr, the dogs were all cut open from hunting so may not be allergy. You answered my question tho, allergy is possible.


So these dogs were severely wounded from hunting, yet you mention anesthesia allergy and death????? It takes some heavy duty heart, respiration, and blood pressure monitoring to catch a anesthesia sensitivity. But if the dog is already pretty far gone from injuries that require surgical intervention, why raise the anesthetic allergy issue?

T


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Cos it was mentioned by breeder and dogs were stable before sedation.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Hhhhmmmm, then back to finding out which drugs they used and whether the breeder knows of known anesthesia related deaths that weren't injured or other wise health compromised.

T


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Your vet should be doing a blood test before sedation cost 50 bux but its worth it im surprised no one has said that to you over here its a pretty common thing amongst breeders with GSD so i thought most would know about it even though its for your other dog???


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Was not aware of blood test neither breeder or vet mentioned that, problem solved.





brad robert said:


> Your vet should be doing a blood test before sedation cost 50 bux but its worth it im surprised no one has said that to you over here its a pretty common thing amongst breeders with GSD so i thought most would know about it even though its for your other dog???


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Brad, are they testing for underlying issues such as kidney, liver, etc. or actual allergy to certain anesthetic drugs?

T


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

From what i know its about allergys mainly i will find out more as i sort of took it for granted and didnt ask anymore questions when told about it.But it was described as checking for allergic reactions.


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## Jonathon Howard (Nov 11, 2010)

brad robert said:


> From what i know its about allergys mainly i will find out more as i sort of took it for granted and didnt ask anymore questions when told about it.But it was described as checking for allergic reactions.


Hey Brad, 
If that vet can point me to which blood test can tell me what allergies a dog has it would solve about 25% of my clients problems with itchy dogs 

Pre-anaesthetic blood profiles is what we do in elective surgeries. It tests for what Terrasita is talking about.

Emergency surgeries we don't do this as we already have the dog on fluids and have the crash cart drugs on hand and the necessary precautions are already being dealt with.

Peter,

is it a sedative drug or a anaesthetic drug that these dogs are allergic to???? There are a myriad of drugs available for sedation and anaesthetic so an alternative can be found.
If the dogs die under anaesthetic no matter what anaesthetic used then there may be an underlying genetic disease in that line. eg we had a chihuahua in where the owner was reluctant to put the dog under anaesthetic due to the father, uncle, brothers all dying under routine surgeries. Checked the dog, it had a heart condition. Checked two other siblings and they had the same heart condition.
Find out from the breeder what drug it was and ask them what other drugs have worked for sedation.

Also PennHip can be done as early as 16 weeks. It must be done under sedation as it test the laxity of the hips which cant be properly done while the dog is awake due to muscles holding the hip together.

Happy days

Jonathon


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Give me a break johnathon im not a vet LMAO and i meant it was suppose to test for allergic reaction to anaesthetic not allergys which obviously from your informed opinion there is available(pre anaesthetic blood profile as u said lol) and my friends use this now.

Peter why dont you do the AZ system here?


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Cos others tell you where yr at, penn hip tells you where your going.


Like everything, opinions differ.




brad robert said:


> Give me a break johnathon im not a vet LMAO and i meant it was suppose to test for allergic reaction to anaesthetic not allergys which obviously from your informed opinion there is available(pre anaesthetic blood profile as u said lol) and my friends use this now.
> 
> Peter why dont you do the AZ system here?


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Cant answer your questions, but all i gotta ask for is a pre—aneasthetic blood profile and all is good. 


Why isn't this given automatically??? 







Jonathon Howard said:


> Hey Brad,
> If that vet can point me to which blood test can tell me what allergies a dog has it would solve about 25% of my clients problems with itchy dogs
> 
> Pre-anaesthetic blood profiles is what we do in elective surgeries. It tests for what Terrasita is talking about.
> ...


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Im not familiar with penn hip so is it acceptable for the ankc??


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## Jonathon Howard (Nov 11, 2010)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Cant answer your questions, but all i gotta ask for is a pre—aneasthetic blood profile and all is good.
> 
> 
> Why isn't this given automatically???


No Peter,

If you get a pre-anaesthetic blood profile it will not tell you if your dog will go into anaphylactic shock and die from a sedation, premedicant or anesthetic agent. It may however tell you that there is kidney problems, liver problems or blood problems which may change the type of drugs used during the procedure.

A pre-aneasthetic profile isn't given automatically as in most things in life it costs money. We give the client the option whether they wish to spend the money. A majority of clinically healthy dogs having desexes, lump removals, teeth cleans do not require or warrant this test so would be a waste of the clients money. Generally we recommend it for geriatric dogs (over 8 y) or any other dog that doesn't look clinically right on examination or based on animal history.

There are certain breeds that show adverse reactions to certain premedicants and anaesthetic drugs. For example Boxer dogs and Acepromazine, Greyhounds and Thiopental. The awareness of these adverse reactions came from vets experiencing bad anaesthetics and animals dying. There is no blood test that tells us that these breeds will react that way only clinical examples. Vets know not to use these drugs on these breed by learning it at Vet school.

If your Curr is young, healthy and clinically normal then it is unlikely the PAP with tell you anything other than you have a healthy dog. If your dog needs to go to surgery then tell the vet that your dog if from a bloodline that has known sedation complications and they will most likely use sedation and anaesthetic drugs that have reported the least documented adverse reactions.

Bottom line, find out what the sedation drug is and get a PAP to have the best chance of your dog pulling thru if the situation arises.

hope this helps

Jonathon


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

brad robert said:


> Im not familiar with penn hip so is it acceptable for the ankc??


 Dont know or care about that, the gsd registry dont recognise it, dont care about that either.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Thanks for info.




Jonathon Howard said:


> No Peter,
> 
> If you get a pre-anaesthetic blood profile it will not tell you if your dog will go into anaphylactic shock and die from a sedation, premedicant or anesthetic agent. It may however tell you that there is kidney problems, liver problems or blood problems which may change the type of drugs used during the procedure.
> 
> ...


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Some sedation drugs are available in the US that aren't available in Oz (Jonathon would know better than I), but when I sedate for short procedures like this, I usually use a reversible sedative paired with an opioid and/or benzodiazepine +/- a small amount of ketamine if really necessary (like the animal is really aggressive and I need to make sure they are 100% immobilized). Usually something like a fairly low dose of dexmeditomidine and nalbuphine is my pick lately, but I also like either hydromorphone or midazolam (both currently unavailable in the US, grrrr...). The dexmeditomidine is reversible by a drug called Antisedan and usually the animal is up on their feet in about 10-15 minutes. 

As for pre-anesthetic or pre-sedation bloodwork, I don't require it before sedation and I don't do very much surgery to require it for that. It is nice to have done once in an animal's life when they are young to see what their normal values are so if they get ill later, the values can be compared. An "allergic reaction" to sedation or anesthetic drugs would be quite rare and anesthetic deaths are more likely due to some other compromise of the cardiovascular system than the immune system reacting to it.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Peter,

Don't drink the PennHip koolaid. It doesn't tell you where you are going. All it tells you is that it could be a "possibility" or liklihood. Look at their own research [generally 1 breed or max 4, if I remember correctly] and they give you certain percentages of dogs that were dysplastic on follow-up. The higher DI, the higher the risk for developing dysplasia. Doesn't mean they will. You won't know unless you x-ray later. One dog .3 or less came back with dysplasia so they say a strong liklihood that if the dog is .3 or less it won't develop dysplasia. They do an extended view that will tell you that the dog doesn't have DJD. Doesn't tell you if he has something like inadequate socket development. PennHip gives you a maybe this or a maybe that and for a lot more money. So for me on a young dog [younger than 2-3], it doesn't have any more prediction value. They SAY the DI doesn't change with age but have seen this proven wrong. 

T


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

It is about 3 times the price and not recognised by the registry which i'm not registered with lol, or the overarching control body, or vets,so going hmmmm. I do like the concept and think it will dévelop. Mebbe later, stick with the majority for now on this one. 

Thanks for opinions and help all, will get the blood profile just because its good info and discuss allergic' with vet.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Either way Peter your going to do what you want but i can say that everything i have seen from the GSDL heres AZ scheme seems pretty decent with waiting times for results not being to long either.They have really pushed for breeders to do the right thing.And costs arent off the charts either.


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