# Perimeter dog questions



## Rick Scott (May 19, 2013)

Is it possible to train a true perimeter (sentry) dog to be safe around children and family?

What is the best breed for one of these dogs?

Can a trained protection dog which attacks on command double as a home defense dog and attack intruders instinctively?

Serious responses only please.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

since territorial behavior is so ingrained and instinctual, I'd wager yes as you'd only need to tweak natural behaviors. I haven't "trained" it at all, but my dogs all know where the property line is at the house. Training him to bite if someone crossed that line I don't think would be that difficult. I don't think it would change how he is around the house.


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## Rick Scott (May 19, 2013)

Thanks for the reply.

I have a couple really well trained protection dogs. Meaning they will attack on command.

One lives outside on the property and one indoors for security purposes.

My fear is that the one outdoors will not attack an intruder without a command.

I've tested this myself by 'breaking in' at night to see the dogs reaction and its just alot of noise but since I spend significant amount of time with the outdoor dog, theres a good chance that it can sense it is me and not a real threat. That I do not know?

So, my thoughts now since I can't confirm if the outdoor dog will actually perform when required, is to train some real perimeter dogs that will be locked up in the run all day and released only at night.

Otherwise is there any good way to 'test' the functionality of a dog to see if it will indeed perform? Any recommended drills to reinforce?


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

Rick Scott said:


> Thanks for the reply.
> 
> I have a couple really well trained protection dogs. Meaning they will attack on command.
> 
> ...


Why would you test this on your own dogs? What would you do if they bit you? Correct them? What happens if someone really broke in, and now your dogs are hesitating to bite what could be you, again? Praise them?... 

I dunno, maybe Im weird, but I don't provoke my own dogs into attacking me.


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## Rick Scott (May 19, 2013)

Brian McQuain said:


> Why would you test this on your own dogs? What would you do if they bit you? Correct them? What happens if someone really broke in, and now your dogs are hesitating to bite what could be you, again? Praise them?...
> 
> I dunno, maybe Im weird, but I don't provoke my own dogs into attacking me.


Good point. That probably wasn't a good test. I should clarify by saying it was me coming through the gate but by foot late at night one time. Wasn't a true test (I was actually needing to enter the property as I was out and did not have my car) but I would have expected the dogs to have at least ran towards my direction but instead they held their ground and just barked from a couple hundred feet away (I have a big property and the house is set back from the front gate).


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

holding ground is fine...

why would you want him at the fence? where he can get shot, skewered and/or burned alive by the people coming to storm the property?


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Rick Scott said:


> Is it possible to train a true perimeter (sentry) dog to be safe around children and family?
> 
> What is the best breed for one of these dogs?
> 
> ...


I don't think dogs trained to bite should be that social with people outside the family no. Kennels and crates come in mighty handy, something I've learned. I like them trained to bite when I'm not there and bite when commanded but I'm still learning. Having them charge the fence is not always ideal I agree.


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## Paul R. Konschak (Jun 10, 2010)

Ben Thompson said:


> I don't think dogs trained to bite should be that social with people outside the family no.


Do you only believe this for perimeter dogs or any dog that has been trained to bite?


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## Rick Scott (May 19, 2013)

Joby Becker said:


> holding ground is fine...
> 
> why would you want him at the fence? where he can get shot, skewered and/or burned alive by the people coming to storm the property?


Good point also


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## lannie dulin (Sep 4, 2012)

Rick Scott said:


> Is it possible to train a true perimeter (sentry) dog to be safe around children and family?
> 
> What is the best breed for one of these dogs?
> 
> ...


To answer the questions directly: Yes, they can and should be safe around children and family. I assume they would be that way before training and no good training should change that. 

Best breed is just asking for a debate. Just find one you like from working blood. 

As someone already pointed out "yes" because it's just a matter of tweaking instinctual behavior. My male is good with ppl and dogs outside the house. We can sit and talk and he'll ignore you like you aren't there as long as you don't do anything crazy. Once in his yard it's different. We put him up when friends come over. We do that because (again like someone said) we don't want him making friends with anyone outside the family, and we don't want him thinking he needs to watch this stranger we invited in, so the dogs go in their kennels while guest are over (except family).


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## Chip Blasiole (Jun 7, 2006)

I would think they could be safe around your own children and immediate family, that is the pack. And that is if you get the dog as a puppy. I am talking about a property protection dog that is not social to people outside his pack and will essentially bite anyone who comes on the property, such as when youare not there. Getting such a prospect as a pup would not very easy. A personal protection dog has to be more social and discerningt and only aggress when it perceives a threat or is commanded to engage. This type of dog tends to be more social and may let anyone walk onto your propert when you are not there.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

How about installing a second fence and let the dogs roam the between space? They would be true junkyard dogs and handled accordingly. They would not be social and only barely tolerate their handler. There is a/was a prison (West Va, I think) then went to the local pounds and got the truly nasty dogs and turned them loose between the fences. The prison reported that there had been no successful escape attempts since they installed the dogs. The only person the dogs didn't attack was the handler but I gather it was like handling wild animals. I tried to find the link for the story but wasn't successful.

When you get ready to test it, slip the gardener an extra ten spot for his trouble.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Ha, I found it. It's in Idaho.

http://www.kboi2.com/news/local/41767502.html

Here ya go, Rick, all your problems solved.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

lannie dulin said:


> To answer the questions directly: Yes, they can and should be safe around children and family. I assume they would be that way before training and no good training should change that.
> 
> Best breed is just asking for a debate. Just find one you like from working blood.
> 
> As someone already pointed out "yes" because it's just a matter of tweaking instinctual behavior. My male is good with ppl and dogs outside the house. We can sit and talk and he'll ignore you like you aren't there as long as you don't do anything crazy. Once in his yard it's different. We put him up when friends come over. We do that because (again like someone said) we don't want him making friends with anyone outside the family, and we don't want him thinking he needs to watch this stranger we invited in, so the dogs go in their kennels while guest are over (except family).


to what extent should the true permineter dog be friendly with children and family? do you mean all children, and all family members? (example: children who are strangers to the dog, and extened family also?)

the topic was perimeter dogs, not house pet dogs.

Things to also think about.

20% of murders in the US are commited by family members.

I would guess a higher percentage would apply to murders and also other serious crimes that are commited in the home, are done by people that were invited into the home. 

So having your dogs locked up, is a pretty good way to make sure they are not available if you actually wanted or needed them. I understand that many people also do not want or need their dogs for any form of readily available protection, which is a good thing, if the dogs are locked up, they will most likely prove to be useless. a secured dog can not protect anything.


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## Rick Scott (May 19, 2013)

Sarah Platts said:


> Ha, I found it. It's in Idaho.
> 
> http://www.kboi2.com/news/local/41767502.html
> 
> Here ya go, Rick, all your problems solved.


I know you probably think you are making a joke but I saw that article awhile ago and the idea has merit.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Rick Scott said:


> I know you probably think you are making a joke but I saw that article awhile ago and the idea has merit.


My response was sincere because one of your last posts read:




Rick Scott said:


> So, my thoughts now since I can't confirm if the outdoor dog will actually perform when required, is to train some real perimeter dogs that will be locked up in the run all day and released only at night.


 
So I gave you a solution accompanied by real world implementation and demonstrated results. 

Frankly, I think that you don't even know what you want from your dogs. A dog that will perform without hesitation? Or one that takes the time to figure out if it’s you out playing silly commando games in the middle of the night? I used to play stupid games like that with the farm dogs. Until I had to peel one off my throat (thank god it was winter and I was wearing heavy winter gear) and learned a lesson that night. Personally, I cheering that one of your dogs does nail you. Hard.

If you want a dog that’s friendly to the family, then that’s what you have. If you want a dog that will attack without hesitation and guard against any intruders then that’s what you get. Just remember that in either case you will need to secure the dog(s) up when you get any other relatives, friends, workers, etc on the property because you don’t want them get friendly with the dogs or accepting of their smell. So when that gardener, who’s been casing your property for the last several months, decides he’s going to rob you – the dogs will take him out.


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## lannie dulin (Sep 4, 2012)

Joby Becker said:


> to what extent should the true permineter dog be friendly with children and family? do you mean all children, and all family members? (example: children who are strangers to the dog, and extened family also?)
> 
> the topic was perimeter dogs, not house pet dogs.
> 
> ...


If your asking about my dog, he is safe around all children and family that come around my house regularly. I thought some common sense would take care of that. A random 3rd cousin would have a problem walking in the front door. 

I don't recall me mentioning a house pet dog in my response. I don't know what your talking about. I also stated that I lock my dogs up when I have friends over because they are welcome in my home, but I don't want my dogs making a lot of friends. If I introduce someone to my dog, in the context of being in my house it is a thought out decision, not a random happening of a buddy from training coming over and now the dog thinks it's okay for him to be here too. 

If your worried about your friends killing you, then I suggest you just don't make any friends instead of dreaming up scenarios that are extremely unlikely to happen. All that silliness of murders being 20% from family and stuff is just that silliness. You shouldn't be trying to derail his post with your random silliness. Are you of the impression that your dog will keep you safe from anyone killing you in your house, including your wife? The dog is just one layer of security among multiple in my house. I assume he is reasonable and just wants to add a layer of security in his house and thinks "hey a dog can be a good pet and a layer of security". That's totally reasonable. How is that different than a husband knowing how to fight and/or a good shot and still being a loving husband and father? Can you protect your kids if your wife decides to kill them and add to that 20% stat, or will she just wait until your asleep, or gone? 

Now if a stranger comes over to my house (like a repair man) if the person is just coming to the door I put the dog in a down position in my living room (about 10 paces from the door) where he is visible to the guy at the door. If the person needs to come in I usually put the dog in one of the bedrooms with my Wife or Son and we have an understanding that if I call for the dog let him go. It's not a big deal they sit and watch tv and the dog is chillin. In my house we try to balance safety as it relates to a dog that will bite and the security of having a dog that will bite. Call him a house dog if you want, but he does his job, he earns his food.


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## lannie dulin (Sep 4, 2012)

Rick Scott said:


> I know you probably think you are making a joke but I saw that article awhile ago and the idea has merit.


I was on your side until then bro. Just get/raise a well adjusted dog and do bite work with a local group. When he's 2 or 3 start doing civil work with him. 

Like Sarah said, don't play games trying to see what he'll do. Your just asking for it, but those are the mistakes we make when we're new. When you do stuff like that my bet is you didn't expect the dog to do anything more than bark a lot. 

Also like someone said, put him up when you got ppl over other than family. I just posted how I handle that in different situations. In my view the dog isn't for protecting property, but ppl. I would be pissed if you broken in and took my tv, but I would file an insurance claim and get a new one, no emotional harm done. I would be in raged if you killed my dog and then took my tv. I'd be like "Dam! He killed my buddy?!" Now if you killed my dog and that allowed my Wife to get to the phone, alarm pad, gun, or whatever and ultimately save her life I would be grateful the dog did his job and sacrificed himself for my family. I'd then go get a new one.


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

Sarah Platts said:


> Ha, I found it. It's in Idaho.
> 
> http://www.kboi2.com/news/local/41767502.html
> 
> Here ya go, Rick, all your problems solved.


so these non social dogs have weak nerves right?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Michael Murphy said:


> so these non social dogs have weak nerves right?


it is quite possible yes, that most of those dogs do not have super duper strong "nerves", as most people view them.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

lannie dulin said:


> If your asking about my dog, he is safe around all children and family that come around my house regularly. I thought some common sense would take care of that. A random 3rd cousin would have a problem walking in the front door.
> 
> I don't recall me mentioning a house pet dog in my response. I don't know what your talking about. I also stated that I lock my dogs up when I have friends over because they are welcome in my home, but I don't want my dogs making a lot of friends. If I introduce someone to my dog, in the context of being in my house it is a thought out decision, not a random happening of a buddy from training coming over and now the dog thinks it's okay for him to be here too.
> 
> ...



No Lannnie ws not asking about your dog(s) in particular here.

Also not trying to derail the thread, the thread is asking questions about "true" perimeter (sentry)dogs. not your dogs.

Maybe that term needs to be defined by the OP a little better.

I just dont believe he was talking about dogs IN the house, or family protection dogs here, so your dogs, my dogs, are really irrelavent to the discussion as I see it, as are what you believe a family home protection dog should be like, so I think you are attempting to derail this thread in reality.



> In my view the dog isn't for protecting property


If this is your view, then you dont think dogs should be used as a sentry dog period, which is what the topic is about.

Your advice is to get a dog and join a club? do they have clubs that will help in the training of a perimeter or sentry dog? if so where?

I was just giving some info to think about.

Your idea of a protection dog, may vary from mine, or someone elses. 

My opinion still stands, a protection dog is useless if he is locked up when visitors are over.


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## Tim Lynam (Jun 12, 2009)

Rick Scott said:


> Is it possible to train a true perimeter (sentry) dog to be safe around children and family?
> 
> *No. That is what your PPD is for. A Ferrari doesn't make a good dump truck...*
> 
> ...


*By the time (and money) it takes to train compound/sentry dogs to avoid all of the pitfalls of old school and modern day dog neutralizers, as opposed to just being a deterrent, you could pay for a heck of a good perimeter alarm system. Just because a dog can be trained to do the job doesn't mean it is the best choice nowadays.*


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Thank you, Tim!

+10


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## Chip Blasiole (Jun 7, 2006)

I would agree that a serious property protection dog is likely to have some nerve issues, or rarely you might find one that has social aggression as part of its temperament. It is the nerve issues that cause the dog to see everything as a threat, but also have enough strong defensive aggression to go along with the nerve issues. I'm not so sure the majority of personal protection dogs would make it as good perimeter/property protection dogs. Unless your personal protection dog did not have to come into direct contact with people, such as always being kept at short distance on leash.


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## Gus Pineda (Jul 2, 2013)

Get a Fila Brasilia, it will get along with YOUR kids and family.... and nobody else!


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## David Winners (Apr 4, 2012)

Gus Manda said:


> Get a Fila Brasilia, it will get along with YOUR kids and family.... and nobody else!


That's a hugely broad statement, and impossible to quantify. To think that all dogs of a certain breed share the same temperament is ridiculous. I've met 2 Filas and they both were aloof at first, but came to like me in a short time.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

David Winners said:


> That's a hugely broad statement, and impossible to quantify. To think that all dogs of a certain breed share the same temperament is ridiculous.* I've met 2 Filas and they both were aloof at first, but came to like me in a short time*.


I agree, but also know you can seek out and get Fila fairly easily that would not, or at least that was how it was in recent years past.

I put Fila in their own category in social aspects as a breed, which seems dumb I know, but I still do it..


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## Tim Lynam (Jun 12, 2009)

My friend has Cao Fila de Sao Miguels. "Like" a stranger no, more like tolerate only if told to do so... Just doin' what comes naturally. IMO the only generalization that can be made about Fila is they aren't the easiest to train on the Lobo family tree.


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## lannie dulin (Sep 4, 2012)

Joby Becker said:


> No Lannnie ws not asking about your dog(s) in particular here.
> 
> Also not trying to derail the thread, the thread is asking questions about "true" perimeter (sentry)dogs. not your dogs.
> 
> ...


I guess the part about the dog being around the family made me think he meant a PP dog. That was the basis of my responses.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Tim Lynam said:


> My friend has Cao Fila de Sao Miguels. "Like" a stranger no, more like tolerate only if told to do so... Just doin' what comes naturally. IMO the only generalization that can be made about Fila is they aren't the easiest to train on the Lobo family tree.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I can't judge what a Fila is all about based on only one nervy piece of crap that I saw up close. He'd bite for sure...........if you cornered him or was running away.


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## Gus Pineda (Jul 2, 2013)

I'm sure there must be nervy and friendly Filas around, there are always exceptions, but I don't believe it is the norm. They don't work out for everyone, but I can't think of a breed that will take to "taking care of strangers" better than this one.


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Tim Lynam said:


> My friend has Cao Fila de Sao Miguels. "Like" a stranger no, more like tolerate only if told to do so... Just doin' what comes naturally. IMO the only generalization that can be made about Fila is they aren't the easiest to train on the Lobo family tree.


 
Hey Tim (off topic), 

If that friend is Paul C. I can assure you they are nasty...lol

Paul stayed at my place for a week, last year. He even helped me putting out fire!! LOL 



Regards


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## Tim Lynam (Jun 12, 2009)

That's right Tiago. He's got a pure 100s of year old bloodline. Not for the faint of heart... Cool lookin' dogs too.


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Rick,you said your dog stood his ground at several hundred feet away,is that saying a lot about the dog or am i Thinking too much?


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