# How do you feel.......



## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

......about non certified dogs deploying on a search? 

Under a year old dogs, as well as older dogs that have been "training" for more than two yrs.......


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

While I think there may be some *exceptions* where it may be ok to use a non certified dog, it should be the exception based on personal knowledge by a knowledgeable search manager and they need to be able to stand behind their decision. [now the dogs you describe don't sound like they would meet that exception - dog is not certified after two years or a puppy? Nah] 

I also don't have a big problem with sending a non cert dog out on an open grid search of a very low probability area - and look at where we are in the search when we get to that point - but with the proviso that the dog is just going along learning the ropes and not counted as a search asset. 

I do think the non cert dogs should come to the search and get used to the atmosphere but stay in their crates most of the time.

I have certainly seen nationally certified dogs and handlers I would not have on a search! Been there done that with some cadaver dogs.

______________________

What do you do if a cert runs out? We just recertified with NAPWDA but due to difficulty sheduling, we had about a month where cert was out of date. My thinking is we should bite the bullet and always hold two staggered certs.............you know with our infinite departmental *ahem* travel budget


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

We don't permit it. The liability is too great. Training is training and deployment is deployment. While there are always opportunities that arise, during a deployment, that can be a training situation or opportunity, a deployment is not a training exercise. 

DFrost


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

It is frustrating for me, NOT because I want to be the one called out, but because this is human life we are talking about. 

One handler says "I'm not sure I want to trust my dog", "my dogs reward is the next trail so I don't need to reward them", and "she is a natural, I don't think I need to read them"


And the other one allows the dog to run loose all over the areas (training and missions alike) and he challenges people. Watched him in a class one time run at, bark, growl and snap at all who entered the room EVERY time....

Not to mention the demo where the dog watched the guy walk off and it was a short problem, less than 2 acres and we stood there for half an hour until the handler had to call to see where the guy was......

This is why I am thinking of retiring from teaching....worked with BOTH of these people and it just goes in one ear and out the other since they think that their dogs are the best at this. I will continue with the two people that are dang near as serious as I am...but I am sick of trying to teach people and then having crap said about me that I have an ego...

Well sorry peeps, if working my ass off to get where I am, having good solid dogs to show for it (and they do make mistakes and I am not afraid to admit it) and valuing human life enough to know I am not the one for the job is ego....then....I am proud to have one.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Well, no, *those* dogs should not go out. Lives are at stake.

Because of that, if a dog is ready to test or its cert has lapsed, I think there are situations where you may make a decision to field that team. But that is a very careful decision to have to make.

I would just as easily tell a certified dog/handler that was showing lapses of reliablity that they could not go out either.

I would love to know of relevant caselaw or miss statistics for SAR. I don't think there is a lot and I have seen too many dog/handler teams with national certifications that h ad to have just gotten lucky on testing day. 

For HRD - like I said - no brainer there the risk of court is very real and certs and training records are part of the court picture - even though we avoid the probable cause thing as much as possible.

We have had many of the same concerns/issues and have been tightening up on requirements as we grow and get wiser. I would rather have a small top notch team than a large screw up team any day.


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

We just arent deployable until after the cert test, no matter where are dogs are. It is in our by-laws and there is no lee-way for leaders discretion. My final test date kept being moved back for so many reasons I wondered if I would ever be deployable. We had been deemed ready to test, it just didnt happen for a variety of non-dog issues. But I understand that that test needs to be done. Liability and legitimacy are the 2 main concerns.

We also have limits on how long a handler can take to get their dog ready for testing. Technically if they arent ready after 18 months of training, they will be asked to either quit or start a new dog. Of course actually following through with this rule is harder said than done......so the same problem you are talking about, Carol, happens with us.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

.....ground teams found her this morning 1 MILE from her home today with the onset of hypothermia......over 48 hrs missing and within a mile and two dogs on scene.....

The terrain is rugged (but they found her on a road), she had hip replacements and used a walking stick, shorts and a tank top.....media reported she was depressed so I am not sure if that is fact or not.....


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Victim profile? 

Do you have Koester? They are continuing to build that database. 

We had a great lecture by a woman "Teepa Snow" about dementia and normal aging and cognitive changes re- lost person behavior expectations. I am just assuming old due to the hip replacements.


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## Maddy Freemont (Sep 16, 2009)

Non-certified k9s should not be deployed in a search.

Handlers, however, should allowed to quietly walk with active handlers in the field for training purposes.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

She was 49 yrs old. Several surgeries over time with hip replacement being the most recent I believe. 

Media reports she "just took too long of a walk". Last seen near her house with walking stick, green shorts and a white tank. 

I am just HAPPY she was found.


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## Michele Fleury (Jun 4, 2009)

The only time an uncertified dog (air scent only) can deploy on our team is if it has passed 3 of the 4 certification tests and the handler is experienced, having certified and worked at least one previous dog, and then only with the permission of the training director. Our cadaver dogs must be certified.


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## Barrie Kirkland (Nov 6, 2007)

these kind of searches are ten a penny for me, and a search i would use my GP dog for


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

I am assuming General Purpose is what GP means? (forgive me, I am a bit slow...LOL)


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