# the blind leading the stupid



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

so got pro-active on my training and called in a favour and got some non sport dog owners to intro my pup to a man standing it front, demo'ed carefully how to preseent tug approach pup etc, did a role play with me as dog and me as helper etc. 

*take 1*: man lets go of one end of tug and starts stabbing my pup in the face with other end of tug, frustrated pup bites man's hand - helper goes home.

*take 2: *re*-*demo how to present flat side/ face of tug to pup, pup strikes nicely at tug, while still in mid air helper loses nerve and rams tug into pups open mouth,pup heads gets compressed back on its spine, does cart-wheel in mid air and ends up on its back on gorund. i send helper 2 home.

*take 3:* lateral run by, helper runs staright at pup yelling then swerves away at last minute, lets one end of tug go and back hands pup in side of face with tug.

put pup in car and i go home


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Wow, that sucks, mostly for you pup. No clubs around?

And for all of you that will not let an inexperienced helper work your dog take note.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Edward Egan said:


> *Wow, that sucks, mostly for you pup. No clubs around?*
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Um, yeah. Good help is hard to find.

I would go back to having the pup on a tie out and do my own tug work.


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

I am with Leslie! Do you own tug work. Teach all the things you will need the pup to do later on, and then once he is mature and ready to meet a decoy/helper the dog knows all the rules. Makes the transfer over super easy!


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Peter,

You don't need untrained helpers/decoys working your dogs. In fact they're likely to do more harm then good. Look at the ME
DVD's you claim to have, then look at them again and then look at them again 
There is a new DVD Advanced Concepts in Motivation that goes into step by step how to play tug, how to lure etc.
Ships soon but is available to view on line now
http://leerburg.com/flix/videodesc.php?id=771


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## Kelly Godwin (Jul 25, 2011)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Peter,
> 
> You don't need untrained helpers/decoys working your dogs. In fact they're likely to do more harm then good. Look at the ME
> DVD's you claim to have, then look at them again and then look at them again
> ...


The new Michael Ellis video on Motivation is very good. We pre-ordered a few weeks back and received a link this weekend that allows us to go ahead and watch it online. 

My recommendation would be to pre-order the DVD as it will get you the physical DVD and also get you access to the streaming version as well.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Kelly Godwin said:


> The new Michael Ellis video on Motivation is very good. We pre-ordered a few weeks back and received a link this weekend that allows us to go ahead and watch it online.
> 
> My recommendation would be to pre-order the DVD as it will get you the physical DVD and also get you access to the streaming version as well.


HI Kelly

I totally agree. I've watched about 1/3 of the video so far and it's probably the most helpful DVD that Michael has come out with so far


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## Gerald Dunn (Sep 24, 2011)

Can you hear it??? Some of the CD's are not worth the $$$ because of the sound


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Gerald Dunn said:


> Can you hear it??? Some of the CD's are not worth the $$$ because of the sound



Please do an intro before you continue posting.
Are you talking about the Michail Ellis DVD's or the Leerburg
Streaming video? I've never had a problem with either.
I have had MAJOR problems with Ivan B's PPV site and all emails
have been ignored :-(


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## kerry engels (Nov 7, 2010)

leslie cassian said:


> Um, yeah. Good help is hard to find.
> 
> I would go back to having the pup on a tie out and do my own tug work.


 
This. :lol:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Thomas Barriano said:


> HI Kelly
> 
> I totally agree. I've watched about 1/3 of the video so far and it's probably the most helpful DVD that Michael has come out with so far


It's terrific. I have to keep backing it up so I don't miss stuff.


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Please do an intro before you continue posting.:-(
> 
> What's with you telling people to do intro's
> Are you trying out for a Mod. position. Or just sucking ass. Your like the annoying kid at school that has to tattle tale on all the other kids that are having fun.:roll:](*,)


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Hey you lot....this is Peter's thread !! And Peter needs advice !!!!!!


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

todd pavlus said:


> Thomas Barriano said:
> 
> 
> > Please do an intro before you continue posting.:-(
> ...


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

My advice would be for an inexperienced trainer (Peter not a criticism) to train another inexperienced person to do tug work is DON'T do it. You saw the results. It could very well be a train wreck for the dog and the "helper" waiting to happen.
Ellis has a great DVD on doing tug work with your dog. Haven't gotten the new motivational one.....yet.


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## Alison Grubb (Nov 18, 2009)

Yeeeaaah, I suppose you have learned your lesson now huh?
IMHO, green decoys need dogs that know what they are doing in order to learn better and green dogs need a decoy who knows what they are doing in order to learn better. At some point, a decoy in training and a dog in training can meet and both learn, but at the beginning stages not so much.

Stick the pup on a backtie and do your own work.
That or remember the phrase, "no training is better than bad training."


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

Yea, have to say that I had my final experience asking someone else (no experience) to work my dog. All I wanted was to put my dog barking on someone other than myself, with a pillow no sleeve. Just had to bring it up for him and let it go, when I said. Boyfriend stood there looking less threatening than a sack of potatoes and my dog couldn't figure out why I was asking him to guard him. He ran up to him, barked once and then looked at me with a "are you sure you meant this guy?" :lol: Turned into a "decent" training exercise of convincing him to bark anyway, but not one that will be repeated. (Decent = finding a silver lining.)

I agree with everyone else's suggestions about ME's training videos and teaching basic technique yourself. Done right there really won't be an issue transitioning onto a second person who also knows what they're doing.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

todd pavlus said:


> Thomas Barriano said:
> 
> 
> > Please do an intro before you continue posting.:-(
> ...


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> It's real simple Todd. It's in the rules and I"m getting tired of the proliferation of trolls posting with fake identities. You want to waste your time addressing inane question from the same
> shit stirrer posting under fake names? Knock yourself out.


Who hired you to enforce the rules though????


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

maggie fraser said:


> Hey you lot....this is Peter's thread !! And Peter needs advice !!!!!!


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

todd pavlus said:


> Who hired you to enforce the rules though????


The same people that hired you to worry about what I do ;-)


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Oh please, not the ME videos again ](*,)
There are lots of different ways to train dogs. I just got to watch the ME tug and one other video. I found them incredibly boring and the information was mostly regergitated from Ivan's videos from years ago. I love how he uses "finding the leg".... :-k let's see, where did that come from. Go see Bart Bellon or Ivan!

Peter, good luck but I'd stay away from new Helpers. 

@Todd, I actually enjoy these personalities that pop up. They are refreshing,honest, comical, and witty. I sure wish they could stay longer.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

_"They are refreshing, honest ..... "_


Yep, those phony logins with the fake names and made-up experience and all .... they sure are honest, all right! :lol:


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Connie Sutherland said:


> _"They are refreshing, honest ..... "_
> 
> 
> Yep, those phony logins with the fake names and made-up experience and all .... they sure are honest, all right! :lol:


It's called multiple personalities, as long as they believe it's true, it's honest!

I think the gentlemen on here who exaggerate their past are just as bad


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Tim

You're the only one I know that finds ME vids "boring"
ME trains very much like Ivan. I said years ago that ME trains Ivan's techniques better then Ivan does. I even went to a seminar in Kentucky 5-6? years ago with both ME and Ivan
(Stewart Hilliard was there too). I've been to a lot of ME and
Ivan seminars. With ME everyone gets the same attention
The noob and the experienced competitor. The mal owner and the lab owner. ME is much clearer in explaining things.
Ivan is brilliant in his training, but lots of times he has a hard time explaining it to other people. ME vids are far superior
IMHO I like the detail and the use of different demo dogs.
I know Ivan can train his dogs. I need help in training mine  




Timothy Stacy said:


> Oh please, not the ME videos again ](*,)
> There are lots of different ways to train dogs. I just got to watch the ME tug and one other video. I found them incredibly boring and the information was mostly regergitated from Ivan's videos from years ago. I love how he uses "finding the leg".... :-k let's see, where did that come from. Go see Bart Bellon or Ivan!
> 
> Peter, good luck but I'd stay away from new Helpers.
> ...


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Tim
> 
> You're the only one I know that finds ME vids "boring"
> ME trains very much like Ivan. I said years ago that ME trains Ivan's techniques better then Ivan does. I even went to a seminar in Kentucky 5-6? years ago with both ME and Ivan
> ...



Add to this the fact that Peter, whose thread this is, already owns them.


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Peter..who was blind and who was stupid?


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

Timothy Stacy said:


> @Todd, I actually enjoy these personalities that pop up. They are refreshing,honest, comical, and witty. I sure wish they could stay longer.


Yeah, so do I. I don't come on the forum as much as I use to. Just seems real boring with the same threads over over....just worded differently. In fact the title of this thread sums up this forum pretty good lately. There seems to be an influx of morons posting, since all the "trouble makers" were banned


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

todd pavlus said:


> Just seems real boring with the same threads over over....


Start a thread you like. 



eta

Not sarcastic. I've read interesting posts from you before. Why not start the discussion you want to read?


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

I guess I don't need "concepts" explained to me a (umpteen  times. Ivans videos from 15 years ago were crystal clear to me. He actually gave more scientific explanations. Guess it's a learning curve and some people just become dependent on constant reminders.... Cause they have trouble reading dogs and figuring out solutions on their own.
I disagree with people getting a lot of time with ME. I went to a seminar 3 years ago and i believe it was a $125 for what ended up being two 10 to 15 minute sessions.
Most decent SCH clubs teach newbies these concepts, why? Cause they aren't new and most everyone here in the states does similar stuff.
Cattle follow cattle and everyone loves the warm fuzzy teaching style.

Yes, his 2 videos I watched were terribly boring to me!


Thomas Barriano said:


> Tim
> 
> You're the only one I know that finds ME vids "boring"
> ME trains very much like Ivan. I said years ago that ME trains Ivan's techniques better then Ivan does. I even went to a seminar in Kentucky 5-6? years ago with both ME and Ivan
> ...


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

@Todd, yes there are very few interesting personalities anymore. Some producers decided to fire Gilligan and the Skipper cause after 3 years I guess the agenda changed and the FCC was really pushing hard for censorship .


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Start a thread you like.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'll take care of that!


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Tim
> 
> You're the only one I know that finds ME vids "boring"


I only saw one video and thank God I borrowed it. The narration was horrible with multiple re-used clips. Didn't get to see him work his dog or pups. mainly talk and watch other people make mistakes. 

Yes. Some good techniques.

Crappy video. If he dropped Leerburg and shot some good video, it'd be a start. Don't know if any other videos are better, or if he's doing his own stuff now, but I wont bother to find out. I don't think I'd bother going to a seminar after seeing the video though.


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

I have never watched a ME video, and the only feedback I have heard from him, away from here, was from a club member of mine who went out there for one of his week long classes with her GSD. She said it was a complete waste of time and money, it was like watching one of his videos(only a lot more expensive). He wouldn’t answer any questions or give any extra help..but she was offered to come back for another session if she wanted to learn more.

This summer we had Lance Collins in for 3 days of training, and she is hooked on his system now..so in the end it worked out for her. She could have saved the thousands she wasted by just jumping on board with the LC style of training from the start I highly recommend checking out Work Week 2012 at the WCGSSC if you are able to get in!


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

@Dave, that would be a start! I cringe everytime someone says Michael Ellis marker training!

@Tracey, tell your friend she is not alone in thinking the "school" was a waste of time. 

I will admit Ed did a wonderful job promoting this "system" as something "new"... So in the partial words of Ed "the fact is you will not find" anything new about this system!

One of my favorite BS videos. Didn't he call the Flinks system drive , compulsion, drive? Anyhow he picks the worst case scenario to show an example. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJ2jQf2TSFk&feature=youtube_gdata_player


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Timothy Stacy said:


> @Dave, that would be a start! I cringe everytime someone says Michael Ellis marker training!
> 
> @Tracey, tell your friend she is not alone in thinking the "school" was a waste of time.
> 
> ...



I take back what I said. I would go to a Michael Ellis seminar. I am sure I would learn something. I have seen a few videos produced by leerburg, and they all have the same quality, so it probably isn't his fault.

I have seen a guy who trained with him and he is pretty good. To me, that's what it's about. Can't beat up Ed Frawley either, because he does a nice job marketing his videos. It's all business and *everything* in life is sales. Church, media, attention heels, you name it, and there is a sale involved. 

Can't hate the player, as the young kids say...


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

That's fine, that's just fine!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> ... Crappy video. If he dropped Leerburg and shot some good video, it'd be a start. Don't know if any other videos are better ...



Yes, the first one had sound issues.

Every one is better than the last. The one that just came out is very good quality.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Yes, the first one had sound issues.
> 
> Every one is better than the last. The one that just came out is very good quality.


Content over quality!!!

I love the people I meet in person who Obviosly watch his videos religiously take quotes out of the video like the new testament!

Yes Ed is a salesman who at times reminds me of Don King. At times promoting his next great fighter while diminishing his last great fighters skills by saying how his newest boy toy is the best fighter he's ever seen. They always stay young and fresh . This video is the "straw man" argument directed toward Flinks IMO! Straw man by definition http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
This is the BS luring that drives me crazy! For me it's not about hating the player but letting others know of the BS that's obvious to me!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJ2jQf2TSFk&feature=youtube_gdata_player


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

So tell us, Tim, what do you think of the Michael Ellis videos? :lol:


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## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

Tim...is there a club you train with?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Tracey Hughes said:


> I have never watched a ME video, and the only feedback I have heard from him, away from here, was from a club member of mine who went out there for one of his week long classes with her GSD. She said it was a complete waste of time and money, it was like watching one of his videos(only a lot more expensive). He wouldn’t answer any questions or give any extra help..but she was offered to come back for another session if she wanted to learn more.
> 
> This summer we had Lance Collins in for 3 days of training, and she is hooked on his system now..so in the end it worked out for her. She could have saved the thousands she wasted by just jumping on board with the LC style of training from the start I highly recommend checking out Work Week 2012 at the WCGSSC if you are able to get in!


Tracey

I've never been to a Lance Collins seminar myself but I understand he is a great Schutzhund trainer. How well does his techniques apply to the Ring sports or other venues.
Also, I don't do seminars anymore since $100/day fees became the norm. $100+/day to get my dog worked 20 minutes IF
I'm lucky just isn't cost effective. Plus the older I get the less
I remember about a seminar. I'd much rather spend $50 on
a three hour DVD I can watch over and over.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Skip Morgart said:


> Tim...is there a club you train with?


Train SCh with a club but it's a 2 hour drive and I haven't trained much in the past years in SCH. FR we have a club of 3 just started. Plenty of videos Skip if your trying to go some where with this!


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Connie Sutherland said:


> So tell us, Tim, what do you think of the Michael Ellis videos? :lol:


You agitator Connie [-X


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