# VST/Urban tracking



## John Rotter (Oct 30, 2008)

Looking for some information on getting started in this. We've been tracking Schutzhund style for the past year, and I think Urban/VST tracking would be fun to do.

Thanks in advance.


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## Chad Byerly (Jun 24, 2008)

I just started hard-surface-tracking with my Rottie. I'm using Steve White's method (http://i2ik9.com/), and it's going well. He has a great article in the Sept/Oct issue of Police K9 magazine, which gives an excellent overview of the technique and theory. I'd never tracked, but have done scentwork with this dog (narcotic, and now starting cadaver). I also have Ed Presnall's book. Hopefully, I'll be able to title him before he gets sick again - his lymphoma is in remission. Good luck!


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## John Rotter (Oct 30, 2008)

Chad Byerly said:


> I just started hard-surface-tracking with my Rottie. I'm using Steve White's method (http://i2ik9.com/), and it's going well. He has a great article in the Sept/Oct issue of Police K9 magazine, which gives an excellent overview of the technique and theory. I'd never tracked, but have done scentwork with this dog (narcotic, and now starting cadaver). I also have Ed Presnall's book. Hopefully, I'll be able to title him before he gets sick again - his lymphoma is in remission. Good luck!


Thank you for the information Chad, I appreciate it. Nice to hear your Rottie is in remission.


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2008)

I've also started an approximation of Steve White's method. I started with asphalt and I'm just now transitioning to conrete. It seems a lot easier to teach nose-down behavior when the distinction between the ground and not-ground is a lot crisper. No fuzzy vegetation to create an area of limbo between the two.


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## Chad Byerly (Jun 24, 2008)

Steven Lepic said:


> I've also started an approximation of Steve White's method. I started with asphalt and I'm just now transitioning to conrete. It seems a lot easier to teach nose-down behavior when the distinction between the ground and not-ground is a lot crisper. No fuzzy vegetation to create an area of limbo between the two.


I'm in a new urban tracking group (6 of us who've never tracked before). I'm still on asphalt right now, and I'm cruising with the program (just 3 sessions in, 3 tracks each session). I keep raising a criteria 20% after each successful track, and he keeps performing over 90% (on the track, and on the treats). It's fun. I'm looking forward to the longer tracks with transitions..., but also am enjoying the foundation work too (not because I'm cruel, and enjoy tracklayers having to lay a million little pieces of meat for my dog :twisted: ).


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## Barrie Kirkland (Nov 6, 2007)

Thanks for the link


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I've mentioned it numerous times before but always worth repeating.
Training tracking with food is a ton easier if you use a piece of pvc pipe to drop the food into your foot steps. 
Saves all the bending down. 
I'm old ya know! :-D :wink:


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## Barrie Kirkland (Nov 6, 2007)

like a food blowpipe , but without the chasing pygmies


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## Trish Campbell (Nov 28, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> I've mentioned it numerous times before but always worth repeating.
> Training tracking with food is a ton easier if you use a piece of pvc pipe to drop the food into your foot steps.
> Saves all the bending down.
> I'm old ya know! :-D :wink:


No Kidding!! I always bent over putting food in each step...now I just drop it along as I go...not sure why I hadn't thought of that along time ago, lol!


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## Lisa Preston (Aug 21, 2008)

John, mebbe take a peek at the FH2, too, as an intermediate step between the TDX and the VST... go thru all three Sch level tracks then the FH. 

Ed has 2 good books on the VST
Steve's s-i-a-b was a revelation to me, too.

Magic stuff, the hard surface tracking.

I never used food w/ it, as I thought it too visible, but early days with the dog I had who would work for food, I put a piece of bate in a knee-hi stocking and tied it around my foot so the food scent was in each foot step.


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## Barrie Kirkland (Nov 6, 2007)

can you post up links for any books on Hard surface, i am always keen to read as much as i can 

ta


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## Chad Byerly (Jun 24, 2008)

Lisa Preston said:


> Steve's s-i-a-b was a revelation to me, too.
> 
> Magic stuff, the hard surface tracking.
> 
> I never used food w/ it, as I thought it too visible, but early days with the dog I had who would work for food, I put a piece of bate in a knee-hi stocking and tied it around my foot so the food scent was in each foot step.


Steve White's new method (HITT) is different from his SIAB (scent in a bottle). Basically, it's just water (with no chlorine), so there's no soaking a sweaty shirt... And gradually the water spray gets widened and faded. Then you can bring it back later, to help a dog with problems (turns or transitions). I'm just in the foundation stuff (all asphalt, which is easy enough). The article I mentioned above is really worth getting for a concise summary. I also have his DVD set; it's great, but it's long. Hopefully, he'll put a little book out or something.

Lisa, your idea for baiting footsteps is interesting. And I guess the bait scent could be gradually faded away, maybe by slowly fading the amount of bait juice on the stocking... 

HITT uses treats at first and then the water spray becomes the lure which. At first, treats spaced every 4" on a tight spray line on a short asphalt track. My boy is already at 12" spacing and 35-40' long. It'll be a couple months with my current tracking schedule to move on from foundation tracks, I'm increasing one criteria 20% after each successful track.


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## Barrie Kirkland (Nov 6, 2007)

For his DVD's do you just email him direct for purchase, how much does the set cost ?


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## Chad Byerly (Jun 24, 2008)

Barrie Kirkland said:


> For his DVD's do you just email him direct for purchase, how much does the set cost ?


I think we got it from Dogwise http://www.dogwise.com/itemdetails.cfm?ID=DGT249
It's put out by Tawzer http://www.tawzerdogvideos.com/Steve-White.htm
$120 (a 2 day seminar on 6 DVDs, simple production, but good content..)


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## Barrie Kirkland (Nov 6, 2007)

thanks for the links


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## Chad Byerly (Jun 24, 2008)

Well, I just started HITT on the first of this month. You can see a bunch of our beginner tracks here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mjq8viBNWT0

While in the foundation tracks I now realize I could be increasing the treat spacing much quicker. 
Right now, he's just learning nose-down behavior, and to follow that wet line.


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## Kevin Cramer (Jan 26, 2008)

I'm also using Steve White's HITT system and I had some problems and just came upon this thread. 

I've been training my female Mal puppy using the HITT system for about 2 months now. We don't get to track everyday but we get a few tracks in a week. I'm tracking on asphalt and using many food drops. The distance varies from 4"-12" and my spray width is still an inch. 

The problem is that she tracks extremely fast. She'll hit the food drops with her nose and be right on top of the track but she'll only pick up about 1 in every 10 treats. I've used everything from deer meat, deer liver, hot dogs and chicken breast on the track. I've varied between the 4 different treats on the track but she still tracks insanely fast. I've serpentined the tracks in an effort to slow her down with no success. I do not put a large food drop or a toy at the end either.

If anyone has any suggestions I'm open to anything. I'll try to get some video of her if that would help. 

Thanks.


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## Chad Byerly (Jun 24, 2008)

I live with a pup who often does the same thing. Steve said (very paraphrased) if they're staying on the line and are nose-down (if meeting criteria) don't worry if they blow through the treats. 

I'd like to see some video. 

Are you on Steve and Jen's email group?


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## Kevin Cramer (Jan 26, 2008)

Chad,
No I'm not on the email list. If you could send me the info so I can sign up.

I'll try in the next few days to post some video. Thanks for the insight.


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

Kevin Cramer said:


> Chad,
> No I'm not on the email list. If you could send me the info so I can sign up.
> 
> I'll try in the next few days to post some video. Thanks for the insight.


Yes... post one!! 

Kevin's pup is amazing with the HITT tracking.. and she's only 5 months old!!!!


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## David Stucenski (Mar 29, 2008)

How does this tracking compare to Leerburg's Tracking Through Drive?? I have his videos and I was wondering how these compare?


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## Kevin Cramer (Jan 26, 2008)

David,
The HITT system is used to teach a dog to track human scent from the beginning as opposed to tracking ground disturbance and then asking to track human scent later on in training. The track is baited very heavily at first much like FST. 

I'm not an expert in any form of dog training by any means but it seems to me like HITT tracking would eventually become TTD when you have a decoy at the end of the track. Then the dog is tracking to get the decoy as opposed to picking up treats on the track.

I'm not very familiar with TTD and I'm trying to learn the HITT system. Maybe others with more experience in either can chime in.


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## Kevin Cramer (Jan 26, 2008)

I have two quick videos to share of my pup tracking using Steve White's HITT tracking. Here's a link to his Sept./Oct. 2008 article from Police K9 magazine, for those of you who are interested:

http://www.i2ik9.com/Police_K9_Mag_HITT_Article.htm

I first must apologies for the poor quality of the videos. The second video, the track leads off the screen but you'll get the point.

A few things I want to point out first. Izzy has trouble getting started on both the videos but once she's on, she does good. It seems like she's going a lot faster than it looks on video. I try to lure her to the start with a hand full of treats which she almost completely ignores. She is attempting to put her nose down to track rather than take the free treats from my hand. I think she tracks to track. I'm using deer meat and some deer liver on the track. I think these would be high value treats for any dog. 

I normally feed her 3 times a day. Today, she got breakfast, we skipped lunch and tracked in between what would normally be her lunch time and dinner time.

On the first video she picks up 12 out of 50 treats.

On the second video she picks up 17 out of 54 treats.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kE9GlG4DqoY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evcfeyTgktg


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2009)

Kevin,

Have you done this on generally wet pavement yet?

I was in the middle of one session this last fall when it started raining. Totally bamboozled him. Looked like he thought the track was "everywhere".

Or, additionally, have you seen someone proof the dog onto over-all wet pavement?


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## Kevin Cramer (Jan 26, 2008)

No I haven't tracked on wet pavement, nor have I seen anyone proof on wet pavement. That would be a great element to proof though later in training. 

In theroy, wet pavement would be great for holding scent.


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## Chad Byerly (Jun 24, 2008)

Your pup looks great! I'd definately call that success and raise criteria (either longer spacing or curves/turns) and I'd say you could make the track longer (our speedy dogs sometimes zoom long winding tracks in lots). But you'll get good tips from the Steve or Jen or others on their list...

As far as wet pavement, our group has done it with mixed results. And yes, I think it already is going to be holding more scent. We were even using the sprayers on snow (it was easy to lay treats in the line). Steve's from Seattle, and said it's no problem to use the method on wet pavement. It's just a bit different. If it's really raining, he said they would train in garages.

It's great that there's a good amount of folks here who are doing HITT. :-D


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2009)

> In theroy, wet pavement would be great for holding scent.


You'd think. I guess he considered water the common denominator...and not human scent yet. I was even laying the track in bare feet.


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## Lisa Preston (Aug 21, 2008)

Kudos to you for the bare feet track laying. 
Now, getting other people to lay accurate tracks for you sans shoes, there's a feat.


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## Steve White (Mar 31, 2009)

Hi Kevin,

Before I wade in with suggestions I have a couple of questions.

First, for what purpose are you tracking? AKC-VST? Police K9? Schutzhund/FH? SAR? IMO, the answer will dictate just how much effort you'll need to put into this process.

Second, have you tried anything to reduce visual cues? 

Now for the suggestions.

If you're tracking for SAR, AKC, or Police K9, I wouldn't worry about it too much if she truly is hitting (but noit necessarily eating) every treat, staying tight to the track (two paws on either side of the spray line), and has good body mechanics (smooth gait and topline, steady nose carriage, and efficient breathing). All those disciplines are more forgiving about tightness to track and speed. While I like to see a dog develop a measured, steady pace, I don't like to force a dog into an artificial style, but my disciplines don't judge on style.

If your tracking for ScH/Fh, then style counts. So some "Whoa! Nellie" options are night tracks, spreading treat-sized gravel in the tracking area to "trick" her eyes, use a Calming Cap® to obscure her vision, spray a footstep-type pattern instead of a line, or break the "rules" and test her one a gravel track.

Of all these, night tracks and Calming Cap® tracks are my favorites. However, if you use a Calming Cap® it is imperative that your dog be be acclimated to it first, otherwise any aversion to the equipment can poison your tracking cues.

Also, I've found that once your delay gets to the point that the spray is pretty much evaporated and treats are fairly widely spaced most dogs tend to slow down. 

One other approach I'd strongly reccommend is try a week of all-food-through-tracking, going back to the basics of 4" spacing and dense spray. This works especially well when combined with night and/or Calming Cap® tracks.

Originally designed by Trish King of the Marin Humane Society to lessen a dog's anxiety or aggression in high-stress situations (e.g. in the car or around other dogs). The Calming Cap® has a singlel sheer fabric window makes the dog's vision indistinct. I've watched dogs that relied on visual cues improve pace, nose height, and acuracy on the first trial. Check it out at: http://www.premier.com/View.aspx?page=dogs/products/behavior/other 

Train hard! Track easy!

-Steve



Kevin Cramer said:


> I'm also using Steve White's HITT system and I had some problems and just came upon this thread.
> 
> I've been training my female Mal puppy using the HITT system for about 2 months now. We don't get to track everyday but we get a few tracks in a week. I'm tracking on asphalt and using many food drops. The distance varies from 4"-12" and my spray width is still an inch.
> 
> ...


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Steve, welcome to the forum. Have heard many nice things about you from an acquaintance who introduced me to clicker training and have read a number of your articles. Please stay around; this is a great forum of true working dog enthusiasts. 

RE-the hood, OT but a teammate of mine used a hood on her dog who was going too visual with the cadaver source with great results.


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## Steve White (Mar 31, 2009)

Thanks for the kind words, Nancy. I'll forewarn you all. There are times when I may go the better part of a week without touching my computer, much less taking the initiative to check a forum. However, I'll do my best to be a productive contributor.

Along that vein, I'd like to mention a solution to the what-do-you-do-when-it-rains issue that Steve L raised. As someone else mentioned, here in the rainy Northwest there's no such thing as fair weather tracking. Rain is a fact of life. So, in the early stages, I'll try to stick to dry surfaces (nice nights or parking garages). If the rain is not too heavy we'll go ahead and lay the track, but REVERSE the order--lay the treats down first and then come back over it and spray. 

I know. I know. I know. It sounds like it shouldn't make a difference. After all, water is water. Right. Apparently not. I'm not sure of the mechanism, but after working with dozens and dozens of dogs I've found that it does indeed make a difference. 

Next time you get some rain y'all can give it a try and let me know how it works.

-Steve





Nancy Jocoy said:


> Steve, welcome to the forum. Have heard many nice things about you from an acquaintance who introduced me to clicker training and have read a number of your articles. Please stay around; this is a great forum of true working dog enthusiasts.
> 
> RE-the hood, OT but a teammate of mine used a hood on her dog who was going too visual with the cadaver source with great results.


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## Kevin Cramer (Jan 26, 2008)

Steve,
Thanks for the suggestions.

My goal is police K9 tracking. My concern is that if she gets in the habit of going too fast, I'll run into problems later with corners. Also, I 'm concerned about tactical tracking. I would hate for her to track faster than cover officers could keep up.

I will say though, that whenever I watched my video, it doesn't look like she's going as fast as it feels when I'm on the track. 

It's funny, I try to lead her to the track as you suggest by luring her with treats and lowering my handful of treats to the track. She could care less about the treats in my hand. She ignores it and puts her nose down immediately. I think she tracks for the enjoyment of tracking. The other day I did a track with 50 treats and she only picked up 11. Her nose touched just about all of them. It was her best track to date.


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

Kevin Cramer said:


> Steve,
> I would hate for her to track faster than cover officers could keep up..


I almost spit my Diet Dr. Pepper all over the keyboard.... That happens every day!!!!


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Matthew Grubb said:


> That happens every day!!!!


I thought that was standard.

DFrost


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## Kevin Cramer (Jan 26, 2008)

Matthew Grubb said:


> I almost spit my Diet Dr. Pepper all over the keyboard.... That happens every day!!!!


 Sound like your guys need to put down the regular Dr. Pepper and start drinking the diet like you.


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

Kevin Cramer said:


> Sound like your guys need to put down the regular Dr. Pepper and start drinking the diet like you.


PT is the answer to that one!!! \\/ More videos Kevin... I like seeing my niece's progress!


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Just get a mule like Terry . [No seriously, he looks lean and mean]


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## Steve White (Mar 31, 2009)

Hi Kevin,

My grandpa told me that if it ain't broke, don't fix it. 

If she's starting smoothly then don't worry about her taking the treats from your hand. You might consider building a Down-at-Start ritual. If built without force, this creates powerful stimulus and behavior chains that prime the dog's neurochemistry for this most loved behavior. I have yet to have found a dog that does not benefit from a consistent starting ritual. It doesn't have to be Down-at-Start, but that's the one that has worked well for about 95% of the dogs with which we've tried it.

As for not eating all the treats, that's not a bad thing if she's hitting them all. In the video at http://www.i2ik9.com/HITT_Article_4.htm you'll see Hagi indicate on treats on the ground but not eat all of them. By the way, this dog started as a fairly fast tracker but once the tracks became less salient he settled into a nice working pace.

When it comes to speed, just keep an eye on it with your videos. It usually takes care of itself once the tracks start geting less salient with age and evaporation. While I've come to prefer methodical dogs, I'll defer to a dog's natural style as long as it's accuracy is suitable for the task AND it has good revoery skills. BTW, recovery skills are what separate the productive street dogs from the also-rans, because in the Real World things are going to mess up the track and your dog is going to have to be skilled and resilient enough to sort it out. Patrol officers will only tolerate the "The suspect must have had a car." line for so long before they decide a team isn't worth calling. Those jokers never have to worry about their dogs outrunning the cover officers.

Train hard! Track easy!

-Steve







Kevin Cramer said:


> Steve,
> Thanks for the suggestions.
> 
> My goal is police K9 tracking. My concern is that if she gets in the habit of going too fast, I'll run into problems later with corners. Also, I 'm concerned about tactical tracking. I would hate for her to track faster than cover officers could keep up.
> ...


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## Loring Cox (Sep 6, 2008)

I am bumping this thread up because I am hoping that Steve White is subscribed to it and it may bring him back to answer my question. 

I have been imprinting Nikki with the HITT system for about four weeks. He is doing very well and definately has associated the "nose down behavior." In Steve's video he continually says, "This does not teach tracking, it teaches the nose down behavior that will help him when he gets to hard surfaces." In the video I can see the people with dogs that are tracking well using FST having a hard time gettting their heads around this... I am referring to a seminar that was recorded in Sacramento for people going for the VST.

The video does a great job of explaining things except one thing... When do I begin to teach actual tracking? And how? I want a "trailing" type dog that follows primarily human scent not ground disturbance. I work in an urban evironment where my real world work will be tracks from 2-3 city blocks and 15-45 minutes old.

So once I have the dog using his nose on hard surfaces and he is getting the muscle memory part down, how do I begin to integrate the actual tracking part?

Thanks for any guidance!


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