# NVBK or KNPV ?



## Ana Gainaru

i intend to get a pup sometime in 2012 and i just started gathering some info, i am a complete newb when it comes to bloodlines. i do intend to travel to the neatherlands and belgium and see for myself, talk to people, but it would be great if i had enough knowledge to know what to look for and where to go.

i have worked with 4 czech gsd that belonged to my ex boyfriend, so i hope i can handdle a malinois now. i want to try mondio and ipo, even if just for fun; i have 2 decoys, friends of my ex who can help.

i really like the NVBK dogs, but i am intrigued why the KNPV dogs are apparently so much better in protection work. i get that it’s best suited for them, but I had the impression that NVBK dogs are quite good as well. what am i missing ?

i guess my questions are these:
1. what are the differences between KNPV and NVBK, specifically reactivity to environment, drive and aggressiveness ? more to the point, are KNPV dogs as stable on environment and as drivey and are NVBK dogs as good at protection and seriousness ? i know different bloodlines have different traits, i am just asking in general, getting started.

2. i know almost nothing about bloodlines, i only know a good dog when i see one, hopefully; can you give me some good bloodlines working in NVBK and knpv now ? Just to get started.


Thank you.
Ana


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## Joby Becker

Ana Gainaru said:


> i intend to get a pup sometime in 2012 and i just started gathering some info, i am a complete newb when it comes to bloodlines. i do intend to travel to the neatherlands and belgium and see for myself, talk to people, but it would be great if i had enough knowledge to know what to look for and where to go.
> 
> i have worked with 4 czech gsd that belonged to my ex boyfriend, so i hope i can handdle a malinois now. i want to try mondio and ipo, even if just for fun; i have 2 decoys, friends of my ex who can help.
> 
> i really like the NVBK dogs, but i am intrigued why the KNPV dogs are apparently so much better in protection work. i get that it’s best suited for them, but I had the impression that NVBK dogs are quite good as well. what am i missing ?
> 
> i guess my questions are these:
> 1. what are the differences between KNPV and NVBK, specifically reactivity to environment, drive and aggressiveness ? more to the point, are KNPV dogs as stable on environment and as drivey and are NVBK dogs as good at protection and seriousness ? i know different bloodlines have different traits, i am just asking in general, getting started.
> *
> 2. i know almost nothing about bloodlines, i only know a good dog when i see one, hopefully; can you give me some good bloodlines working in NVBK and knpv now ? Just to get started.*
> 
> 
> Thank you.
> Ana


(currently sober)

what does a good dog look like when you see it?


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## Selena van Leeuwen

A good dog is a good dog, and both can certainly do what you want.


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## Joby Becker

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> A good dog is a good dog, and both can certainly do what you want.


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## Daniel Lybbert

Do French ring. Go to France while in Belgium and see some ring trials


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## Jason Davis

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> A good dog is a good dog, and both can certainly do what you want.


Exatly


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## andreas broqvist

But she maby want to know the difrens between the 2.
How is it with the KNPV lines. Is ther aloot now days in the FCI pedegree dogs? 
If you know some pleas tell, I have not mett any dogs with KNPV blood cloose upp. So it wuld be interesting to se wher they are in the FCI dogs. 

I mett one dutch and shes a mix with KNPV and FCI lines and she was not that impresve. Fun dog but nothing like special, Soft.

Is this what you cal a NVBK dog. The "normal" working mali of europe? She is based on NVBK dogs 4-5 gens back.
Father= http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/10849/Es-Flindttos-Basko
Mother = http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/81921/Cheyenne-van-de-Duvetorre


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## andreas broqvist

And what do you cal dogs like Elgos du Chemin des Plaines?
Hes has 2 NVBK dogs on topp on fathers side.


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## Gina Pasieka

I only have experience with trying to do IPO with one KNPV line dog (n=1), and I can tell you that I am happier with my NVBK mal now. Genetically I think that the bite is fuller in NVBK lines, which is important in IPO. I also don't have to think about this dog trying to come up the leash every time I correct him. Of course I know that this doesn't occur in all KNPV dogs, but I do think they tend to be more handler sharp as a group. Now some people like their dogs to be sharp...and more power to you...just wasn't what I was looking for when doing dog sport.


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## Martine Loots

A good dog is a good dog and you will find those as well in KNPV as in NVBK.
And both NVBK as KNPV have more then one bloodline producing completely different types of dogs.
"THE" NVBK type or "THE" KNPV type doesn't exist.
In NVBK you have the more sporty lines and you have the tough lines. The sporty ones will be more trainable and suitable to many people whereas the tough lines will produce the better protection dogs with a serious character but aren't suitable for every handler.
And I suppose it's the same in KNPV.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Martine Loots said:


> And I suppose it's the same in KNPV.


Yep ;-)


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## andreas broqvist

Yes ofcaus its like that, but often you can generlise abit.
KNPV are probobly creatings dogs that often are more good at somthing neaded in that sport. What wuld you say are the most important traits MOST peopel are trying to breed for ther.

If I se a dog "line" that mostly are bred for belgian ring I Will mostlikely get att dog that are environent stable with good deep grips.
If they mostly breed for french ring maby you get à smaler dog, faster and do to no environent presure probobly not as good ther as the belgian dogs ther. 

But yes in with you that ofcaus you can find al types in al sports, but it shuld be an oceral differens .


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## andreas broqvist

If i generlise ouer swedish protection vs ipo and the difrens it produces in dogs we might lose abitt in deep calm grips becaus we do not give any points for that.
But we nead dogs that likes to fight the decoy in à difrent way becaus of the muzzle work. Also dogs that can work longer and lern faster becaus its à bigger program. After à cupple of generations this Will show upp in the dogs produced.


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## Steve Estrada

Selena & Martine, can you give us a link that some of might understand it more, the NVBK.

> NVBK is not similar to KNPV.
> NVBK includes: Ring, agility, obediance, mondioring and exposition. This is for all breeds. Ring and mondioring is mainly for malinois.
> We work under KMSH, NVBK is another society.
This is the response I got from a Belgian friend, is it correct? Also is it happening on the West coast, California? I like the concept, harder dogs more reality, I think.


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## Martine Loots

Steve Estrada said:


> Selena & Martine, can you give us a link that some of might understand it more, the NVBK.
> 
> > NVBK is not similar to KNPV.
> > NVBK includes: Ring, agility, obediance, mondioring and exposition. This is for all breeds. Ring and mondioring is mainly for malinois.
> > We work under KMSH, NVBK is another society.
> This is the response I got from a Belgian friend, is it correct? Also is it happening on the West coast, California? I like the concept, harder dogs more reality, I think.


NVBK is a "sport" and KNPV is a program to prepare dogs for a career on the streets

NVBK is a federation that focuses on RING (all breeds allowed but only malinois are competing) but also includes obedience, agility, globalring and exposition.
Reality isn't included anymore as there were too few competitors and it usually were the older dogs that couldn't do ring anymore who competed there.
Globalring is a new discipline, which could be compared to Mondio. It has 3 categories, the 2 lower ones being a lot easier then the ring program.

KMSH (FCI) focuses mainly on exposition, obedience and agility. Then they have the IPO program.
Also includes ring (a lot less then NVBK. Hardly any competitors anymore) and Mondio which also has less competitors then NVBK.


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## hillel schwartzman

andreas broqvist said:


> Yes ofcaus its like that, but often you can generlise abit.
> KNPV are probobly creatings dogs that often are more good at somthing neaded in that sport. What wuld you say are the most important traits MOST peopel are trying to breed for ther.
> 
> If I se a dog "line" that mostly are bred for belgian ring I Will mostlikely get att dog that are environent stable with good deep grips.
> If they mostly breed for french ring maby you get à smaler dog, faster and do to no environent presure probobly not as good ther as the belgian dogs ther.
> 
> But yes in with you that ofcaus you can find al types in al sports, but it shuld be an oceral differens .


 GIve me a cross of NVBK AND KNPV..Now I have created the perfect dog for me....Btw Who ever told you the knpv dogs grip better...Well let me say I would like to tell that person don't blow smoke up my butt...That actually might be the opposite case...JMO


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## andreas broqvist

Maby I write to pore but if you read again you se that i wrote NVBK "belgianring" dogs grip better. Becaus they are judged on gripps in that sport. If im not mistaken they are not in KNPV.


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## Martine Loots

There are dogs with a genetic good grip in every discipline. The outcome however depends a lot by the way the dog is trained and this will be different in every discipline.
And a good dog needs a lot more then only a huge grip. I know many high scoring dogs with huge grips that I would never want in our kennel


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Martine Loots said:


> There are dogs with a genetic good grip in every discipline. The outcome however depends a lot by the way the dog is trained and this will be different in every discipline.
> And a good dog needs a lot more then only a huge grip. I know many high scoring dogs with huge grips that I would never want in our kennel



I believe there are many strong police type dogs that don't have the obsessive full mouth NVBK grips. Let us not forget that NVBK trainers are some of the best, they encourage their dogs a lot to push in and grip with a full mouth.
I've seen many IPO people especially german shepherd owners take a 9 week old pup and toss it around while its gripping a rag or toy, a lot of times this causes the dogs to have a shallow bite.

This is a GSD that pushes on the bite, nobody can truly convince me that a pushig full mouth bite is a sign of a better dog, good genetics plus training is the key

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGHL1TVn0Cc&list=UUKfn6LrrGmXS4eaqJf1OnSA&index=8&feature=plcp

I like the control work of NVBK dogs and the size and drive of Knpv dogs, either can be police or military dogs but KNPV is more geared towards police style dogs


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## Martine Loots

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> nobody can truly convince me that a pushig full mouth bite is a sign of a better dog, good genetics plus training is the key
> 
> I like the control work of NVBK dogs and the size and drive of Knpv dogs, either can be police or military dogs but KNPV is more geared towards police style dogs


Pushing full mouth grip is the result of genetic quality and good training but has nothing to do with the character or the seriousness. I know a lot of dogs with super grips that are not serious at all.

NVBK dogs mostly are built pretty strong and have nice size too. I would say the average NVBK dog is like 64cm at the shoulder and 34kg. They also need to be agile to be able to do the jumps.

I don't know the average size of the KNPV dogs, but the ones I saw on KNPV trials mostly were the size of our dogs.


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## andreas broqvist

Whitsh "lets si if i get this right this time  " countries uses KNPV dogs fore Police type work?
We only se dogs like the ones I posted erlyer. NVBK/frensh "FCI registrated" dogs. I think Norway, sweden, denmark almost only have that type of dog. I do not know about germany but the dogs imported her are usaly the same to.

I only se KNPV dogs spoken of in Holland and the USA as Police dogs. Do you know wher they are used besides thos two countries? As a first hand choise?


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## Martine Loots

I'm pretty sure they are used elsewhere too.
And the preparation they get is specialized for a future career as a police dog.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

andreas broqvist said:


> Whitsh "lets si if i get this right this time  " countries uses KNPV dogs fore Police type work?
> We only se dogs like the ones I posted erlyer. NVBK/frensh "FCI registrated" dogs. I think Norway, sweden, denmark almost only have that type of dog. I do not know about germany but the dogs imported her are usaly the same to.
> 
> I only se KNPV dogs spoken of in Holland and the USA as Police dogs. Do you know wher they are used besides thos two countries? As a first hand choise?


Dutch malinois are used in Canada also. Many countries that are new to working dogs use malinois also because they currently have a reputation for being the best breed for police work.


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## andreas broqvist

Oluwatobi Odunuga
Yes i know that. We do to, I was refering to the KNPV dogs and not the NVBK/FCI dogs.
If ther are more countries buying only ore more of the KNPV dogs than dogs from the other regestrys/sports.


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## andreas broqvist

Im just asking becaus its interesting. On this forum you hear so so mutch about thos dogs but not som mutch in other places. 
Im thinking about trying one out and are looking for one now, so this is not a diss.

I just think its kind of funny when somebody ask the difrent between the 2 regestrys/types she get more ore less nothing back. But when the same folks are talking about thos dogs in other posts they are SO mutch better than anything else and you cant even compare. Is that not odd 

Shuldent they se the difrens then, its pretty mutch al they talk about.


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## Jhun Brioso

Hi Martine, 

You've said in your previous post that in the NVBK there are sporty lines & tough lines. Would you be so kind to name a few lines from both parties? Here in my side we have imported some NVBK dogs out of wolf van dupae's kenneltje, A'TIM, V' Racky ( Germaine's dog ) , Hazard van het muizenbos & were expecting a direct son of Eriem to arrive within a few days. All of the said imports were sent here by Germaine except from the dog out of A'tim's & Hazard. I've seen the dogs worked & they produced well for both sports & protection. 

Would really appreciate your reply. Thanks. 

Jhun


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## Martine Loots

Jhun Brioso said:


> Hi Martine,
> 
> You've said in your previous post that in the NVBK there are sporty lines & tough lines. Would you be so kind to name a few lines from both parties? Here in my side we have imported some NVBK dogs out of wolf van dupae's kenneltje, A'TIM, V' Racky ( Germaine's dog ) , Hazard van het muizenbos & were expecting a direct son of Eriem to arrive within a few days. All of the said imports were sent here by Germaine except from the dog out of A'tim's & Hazard. I've seen the dogs worked & they produced well for both sports & protection.
> 
> Would really appreciate your reply. Thanks.
> 
> Jhun


I prefer not to comment on other people’s dogs or bloodlines on a public board.
It would be my personal opinion and since opinions differ, toes are easily stepped on :wink:


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## Tiago Fontes

andreas broqvist said:


> Whitsh "lets si if i get this right this time  " countries uses KNPV dogs fore Police type work?
> We only se dogs like the ones I posted erlyer. NVBK/frensh "FCI registrated" dogs. I think Norway, sweden, denmark almost only have that type of dog. I do not know about germany but the dogs imported her are usaly the same to.
> 
> I only se KNPV dogs spoken of in Holland and the USA as Police dogs. Do you know wher they are used besides thos two countries? As a first hand choise?


 
Portugal and Spain have started to import Dutch dogs for their police working dog programs, a few years ago. There are several KNPV line dogs being employed by both police forces. 


Regards and Happy New Year


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## andreas broqvist

Thank you tiago.


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## Jhun Brioso

Martine Loots said:


> I prefer not to comment on other people’s dogs or bloodlines on a public board.
> It would be my personal opinion and since opinions differ, toes are easily stepped on :wink:


Hi Martine, 

I understand.. Thank you very much. 

Rgds / Jhun


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## Christopher Jones

The Australian Airforce has KNPV Dutch Shepherds and Malinios in their working dog program, both as breeding stock and soldier dogs. Infact a male we kept back from Boy called Scooby is the first certified military working Dutchie. One of his sisters is a brood bitch for them and the other three brothers were also bought by the RAAF.


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## Ana Gainaru

Thank you, great stuff here


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## Erik Berg

When people say KNPV-lines in this discussion, do you mean dogs with quite much KNPV-dogs in the pedigree, or only the unregistred KNPV-dogs? I mean, some dogs seems to have KNPV-titled dogs to various degree and also I suppose a registred pedigree unlike the unregistred KNPV-dogs, like these dogs for example,
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/922384/Era-van-het-Merlebosch

www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/48134/Blacknecks-Kaxe

http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/482143/Ingo-van-het-Dreiland-†

I guess the buying of unregistred KNPV-dogs for the police may be bigger in countries that has not so much workingbreeders of GSDs and malinois. Those handlers that also likes to compete in civilian trials with their dogs when a pedigree is needed also makes unregistred KNPV-lines less attractive I suppose. However, the few dutch sheperds, fake pedigrees or not, I´ve seen in sweden seems very good, I suppose there are more KNPV-dogs in those dogs than the pedigree tells.

Sporty or more "tough" dogs is guess you can find also outside KNPV/NVBK and in the GSD for example.


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## Christopher Jones

Erik Berg said:


> I guess the buying of unregistred KNPV-dogs for the police may be bigger in countries that has not so much workingbreeders of GSDs and malinois. Those handlers that also likes to compete in civilian trials with their dogs when a pedigree is needed also makes unregistred KNPV-lines less attractive I suppose.


I think its a pretty weak argument to say that the popularity of the unregistered KNPV dogs might be so because there are less pedigreed breeders. There is no shortage of GSD breeders or FCI Malinois breeders in Holland. Also if your assumption was correct, why do the German police and military go to Holland to buy these unregistered KNPV dogs when there are tons of Pedigreed GSD's and Malis in their home country? And why dont the Dutch Police and Military go to Germany to buy their pedigreed dogs?


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## andreas broqvist

Chris do you have any number at al " how many dogs" when you say that german police buy unregisterd "knpv" dog instead of pedegree dogs?

When you put it like you do it sounds like german police almost only get knpv dogs from Holland and downt use ther own dogs and that is not realy Ture is it  

Ofcaus ther are peopel her and ther that Will get dogs like that, peopel always want stuff that is kind of special. And à KNPV pup is 350 à grown ph1 dog start from 1350 euro. That is also à good argument. 

I have many good FCI registerd dogs her, exelent dog that I know and train, but I wuld like to get à KNPV dog just to se what the hopla is al about. I Will probobly get one this year. 

Erik.
Who do you train with? Have you traind with noel and her DS ore the DS that won ouer national this year.
I only traind with Tomas ds from K9 and she was Fun but not the hardest dog in the world. Fast as hell thug  
Ther is à thread on her wher thos dogs have KNPV dogs but other ones in the ped.


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## Christopher Jones

andreas broqvist said:


> Chris do you have any number at al " how many dogs" when you say that german police buy unregisterd "knpv" dog instead of pedegree dogs?
> 
> When you put it like you do it sounds like german police almost only get knpv dogs from Holland and downt use ther own dogs and that is not realy Ture is it
> 
> 
> 
> .


 Its absolutley true. Germany has a population of over 81 million people. Holland has just over 16 million people, but yet the German police go to Holland and buy lots of dogs, surely Germany with all its wonderful GSD's they breed would be able to use their own dogs? Take my female Kim, her litter was repeated three times and the majority of her brothers and sisters went to Germany. She has brothers in the German Police. Infact Kim was sold to the German Police to be trained as a Bomb dog but she was too aggressive for them, so I got her. 
Fact is that the German police go and buy dogs from Holland but strangely enough the Dutch police dont go to Germany to buy their dogs. I think that tells a story.


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## andreas broqvist

But as you wrote, Holland is alot smaler. And they have ther own "sport" to make police dogs for them self. It wuld be realy odd if they get dogs from germany then  also the dogs in Holland is alott less expensive. 

But ther are NVBK dogs and german lines gsds in KNPV to, so i gess they do get dogs from outside  that is what makes it à powerfull program. They get what works good


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## andreas broqvist

No one else have à sport/program like that to Make police dogs, but when i say KNPV dog i ofcaus ment the "KNPV line" of dog, not à FCI ore NVBK dog titeld in KNPV. Just so we are talking about the same things


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## will fernandez

Christopher Jones said:


> Its absolutley true. Germany has a population of over 81 million people. Holland has just over 16 million people, but yet the German police go to Holland and buy lots of dogs, surely Germany with all its wonderful GSD's they breed would be able to use their own dogs? Take my female Kim, her litter was repeated three times and the majority of her brothers and sisters went to Germany. She has brothers in the German Police. Infact Kim was sold to the German Police to be trained as a Bomb dog but she was too aggressive for them, so I got her.
> Fact is that the German police go and buy dogs from Holland but strangely enough the Dutch police dont go to Germany to buy their dogs. I think that tells a story.


 
Maybe because the good german dogs are good because of their training while the good dutch dogs are good in spite of their training.


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## Christopher Smith

ROTFLMAO!!!! 

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk


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## Erik Berg

Christopher Jones said:


> I think its a pretty weak argument to say that the popularity of the unregistered KNPV dogs might be so because there are less pedigreed breeders. There is no shortage of GSD breeders or FCI Malinois breeders in Holland. Also if your assumption was correct, why do the German police and military go to Holland to buy these unregistered KNPV dogs when there are tons of Pedigreed GSD's and Malis in their home country? And why dont the Dutch Police and Military go to Germany to buy their pedigreed dogs?


I was thinking countries like australia, US, spain and portugal has not so much workingdog breeders of both mals and GSDs, hence importing KNPV dogs( or dogs in general)for service is more needed. If germany can find some of their need for cheap policedogs across the border I guess they have no reason to look for suitable pedigreed GSDs and malinois in germany only. No reason for the dutch to pay more money for pedigreed dogs in other countries, or in holland, when they have KNPV and their breeders for that purpose that probably supply the demands they have. Not more strange than norway buying quite many of their policedogs from sweden, it´s close and more dogs available.

Speaking of germany and policedogs. A dutchie imported from germany to sweden for possible policework, probably KNPV-lines by the look of the dog, didn´t passed the selectiontest here, to soft and problems to recover when scared. Was sent back to germany and tested by the german police, they thought he was a good policedog candidate. So obviously people/countries values different things when testing PSDs. 

Andreas, no I don´t train with those people, but what I´ve seen of "pedigreed" dutchies like arko in competition, and a few others they looked impressive. Either FCI-dutchies are not that bad or there is a strong influence of KNPV-dogs
Like you I´ve also seen a few that was not so impressive, not 100% KNPV-lines thou in those dogs if the pedigree is correct.

No idea if KNPV-lines are better or special, I guess it´s like been said, there is both good and bad and depending on the use. I thought mals with pretty much KNPV-dogs for several generations at least would be somehow similar to the unregistred KNPV-dogs.


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## Christopher Jones

There were a number of FCI pedigreed Dutchies imported from Sweden to here.
This one is actually the pick of the bunch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=xUMHZHu1puY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=jTvt8WUqkhA

Now you will have to excuse me if Im not so excited by the Swedish Pedigreed Dutchies.
These Dutchies had a high % of real pedigreed dogs in them. The same breeder in Sweden now breeds to known fake pedigreed KNPV dogs, cant say I blame him really.


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## Christopher Jones

will fernandez said:


> Maybe because the good german dogs are good because of their training while the good dutch dogs are good in spite of their training.


 I would agree with that.


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## Christopher Jones

andreas broqvist said:


> And à KNPV pup is 350 *à grown ph1 dog start from 1350 euro*. That is also à good argument.


I will take five at 1350. I dont know what dogs you have been looking at but prices start at around 4500-5000 Euro for a little known good PH1 dog. Prices go up from there for stud dogs and trial winners. Hans was offered 10,000-15,000 Euro for Rudie on four occasions that I know of and never sold him. Someone might try and offload a dog cheap if its not good or has shit hips.


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## Erik Berg

Well chris, the ones I had in mind have no problem biting a sleeve.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fWxgcTliHU

A daughter from the above dog,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0a-We10TQqI&feature=related

The dutchie winning the swedish champion in protection,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Es8oaWU8fJI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOa6D0xESnw&feature=related


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

I believe the KNPV program's specific purpose is to produce police dogs. A large number of malinois owners in holland are serious working people. As a breeder if u sell 8 puppies in holland you can be lucky enough to get 5 in working homes. In other countries its not always like that especially with the gsd, many people just breed a dog because its a son of asko or javir bla bla bla....its hard to place puppies in working homes. That does not mean KNPV dogs are superior to NVBK dogs or Fci Malinois or GSDs...im sure with the right training dogs like A'TIM and Fun would make good police dogs.
If u know the right people u can get police dogs from just about any breeding program, the fact that most KNPV people are dedicated trainers whose aim to sell off their dogs as police dogs later gives them an edge. I hope this discussion doesnt become a sport vs sport or dog vs dog argument.


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## Christopher Jones

Erik Berg said:


> Well chris, the ones I had in mind have no problem biting a sleeve.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fWxgcTliHU
> 
> A daughter from the above dog,
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0a-We10TQqI&feature=related
> 
> The dutchie winning the swedish champion in protection,
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Es8oaWU8fJI
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOa6D0xESnw&feature=related


The Havrevingen dog didnt really impress me, and the video I showed was a Havrevingen dog also. The Male Arko who won the Swedish Protection championships is from Unregistered KNPV dogs. He is actually named after his Grandfather, Arko that Mike Suttle owns. He is not a true FCI dog.
The Gulf between the KNPV Dutchies and the "real" FCI ones is huge.


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## Jhun Brioso

Christopher Jones said:


> The Havrevingen dog didnt really impress me, and the video I showed was a Havrevingen dog also. The Male Arko who won the Swedish Protection championships is from Unregistered KNPV dogs. He is actually named after his Grandfather, Arko that Mike Suttle owns. He is not a true FCI dog.
> The Gulf between the KNPV Dutchies and the "real" FCI ones is huge.


Chris, Having said that.. what's your opinion about the difference between NVBK malis & their " real " FCI counterparts? Thanks.


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## Christopher Jones

Jhun Brioso said:


> Chris, Having said that.. what's your opinion about the difference between NVBK malis & their " real " FCI counterparts? Thanks.


 I honestly havent had much to do with NVBK dogs, but from speaking to a fair few NVBK people they dont like the FCI dogs very much and you wont find many real FCI dogs doing the progam. People like Martine would be able to give a better breakdown than I. The main complaint you hear about the FCI Malinois is the nerves on them and also the sensitivity of them. These are also the thing I have noticed with alot of them also.


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## andreas broqvist

I think your view of FCI dogs are old. Almost al ds and mali in europe is FCI dogs. But they are not show FCI dogs. They are from NVBK / french / german / swedish and so on working lines. No one uses what you cal FCI dogs any more, only show peopel have thos. Its like comparing show gsds and à Ture working line dog.

Maby you pay more in USA for PH1 dogs do to shiping taxes and stuff. When I lookt at PH1 dogs they start from 1350-1500. Not one dog, manny. But i ges thos are not proven stud dogs  

Arko, both mikes and the swedish winner seem to be nice dogs. 
Most havreringen, k9, brindel and czylwiks is KNPV dogs that are FCI registerd.
What I seen of them they have wery nice hard muzzle work. But I seen the same in FCI mali "working type" 
So im with Erik, i think that most nordic peopel uses FCI dogs becaus they like to both work the dogs in police/securety/miletary AND do sports. 

But it Will be nice to se how the ds breeding turn out with dogs like arko and other directly KNPV registerd FCI dogs. The ones imported erlyer did not turn out, faild ouer police dog test.


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## Jhun Brioso

Christopher Jones said:


> I honestly havent had much to do with NVBK dogs, but from speaking to a fair few NVBK people they dont like the FCI dogs very much and you wont find many real FCI dogs doing the progam. People like Martine would be able to give a better breakdown than I. The main complaint you hear about the FCI Malinois is the nerves on them and also the sensitivity of them. These are also the thing I have noticed with alot of them also.


Thank you very much Chris.. I appreciate it!


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## andreas broqvist

This is one of the FCI dogs I train. She is only 2 years and she is going to compete at the national this year.
http://www.krokasmeden.com/k-kull/kiwa.html
Pedegree : http://www.krokasmeden.com/k-kull/kkull.htm
Me traning her, 1 year old : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRyVvw6zKvY&feature=youtube_gdata_player

This is not week soft dogs. But she is easy to train, and the more you push her the more she brings.
I have workt her brothers and ther muzzle work is up ther with arko. They gave me bruses even with protection west on and only 1-2 meter distans.


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## Christopher Jones

andreas broqvist said:


> I think your view of FCI dogs are old. Almost al ds and mali in europe is FCI dogs. But they are not show FCI dogs. They are from NVBK / french / german / swedish and so on working lines. No one uses what you cal FCI dogs any more, only show peopel have thos. Its like comparing show gsds and à Ture working line dog.
> Maby you pay more in USA for PH1 dogs do to shiping taxes and stuff. When I lookt at PH1 dogs they start from 1350-1500. Not one dog, manny. But i ges thos are not proven stud dogs
> 
> Arko, both mikes and the swedish winner seem to be nice dogs.
> Most havreringen, k9, brindel and czylwiks is KNPV dogs that are FCI registerd.
> What I seen of them they have wery nice hard muzzle work. But I seen the same in FCI mali "working type"
> So im with Erik, i think that most nordic peopel uses FCI dogs becaus they like to both work the dogs in police/securety/miletary AND do sports.
> 
> But it Will be nice to se how the ds breeding turn out with dogs like arko and other directly KNPV registerd FCI dogs. The ones imported erlyer did not turn out, faild ouer police dog test.


You are free to think what you like, its a free world. I have difference of opinion on what is a strong dog than you do. You stay with what you are happy with, and I will stay with what I like.
Im not here to convince you of anything, I say what I do and then what will be will be. 
You claim the FCI pedigreed dogs to be as good as the unregistered ones, and then rejoyce that they all have fake pedigrees and are in reality unregistered KNPV bloodlines. Thats not logic that really want to get into a debate with.


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## andreas broqvist

You miss the point. That the FCI dogs now day are mutch the same. The old type show FCI dog is not used. 
I only ask what you feel is the difrens between KNPV xmali xDs and NVBK / FCI dogs. The overal differens?


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## andreas broqvist

What do YOU feel is the bigest difrens between the Malis you use to breed and the dogs you breed now? I realy like the type of dogs you breed and your breeding program looks greate from the litle I know about KNPV dogs. 

What line of dogs did you use Befor you got the Non pedegree dogs.
Again I am not dissing the KNPV dogs, im wery mutch interested in them and I realy like the way the breed and test thos dogs.


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## Christopher Jones

You already have your opinion, stay with it.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Christopher Jones said:


> You are free to think what you like, its a free world. I have difference of opinion on what is a strong dog than you do. You stay with what you are happy with, and I will stay with what I like.
> Im not here to convince you of anything, I say what I do and then what will be will be.
> You claim the FCI pedigreed dogs to be as good as the unregistered ones, and then rejoyce that they all have fake pedigrees and are in reality unregistered KNPV bloodlines. Thats not logic that really want to get into a debate with.


Chris, you're not going to "win" this "discusion".
Most people seem to have an opinion, not knowing what they talk about. (One of the reasons you won't see me react that often anymore)
I can say you're the one with the right info, but I don't think you can make some others "hear"you.. #-o

Dick


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## andreas broqvist

My oppinions are not based on anything reel, I do not even have a oppinion on this..
I want to know what somone that have workt both and you have even breed both say about them. 
Its pretty stupid to just have a appinion and not have any fact for it, Ore not to want to lern and test more about difrent dogs...


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## andreas broqvist

Dick.
That is why I ask. I have not met ANY of thos hig end KNPV dogs, and I have only seen Arko compete. That why I ask you guys that have breed workt and live with thos dogs what the biggest diferens is.
You have NVBK, FCI mali competing against your dogs and you have probobly also traind dogs like that, What is the bigest diferens between them, AND do you se that the FCI registerd dogs with KNPV dog in ther pedegree are getting better than what a FCI dog was 10 years ago?


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## Erik Berg

Christopher Jones said:


> The Havrevingen dog didnt really impress me, and the video I showed was a Havrevingen dog also. The Male Arko who won the Swedish Protection championships is from Unregistered KNPV dogs. He is actually named after his Grandfather, Arko that Mike Suttle owns. He is not a true FCI dog.
> The Gulf between the KNPV Dutchies and the "real" FCI ones is huge.


What is the big difference between otto and many of the unregistred KNPV-dogs then, I don´t see the huge difference in that short film when seeing unregistred dogs in similar situations, especially if they are not highly trained for bitework. If he is in fact a "true" FCI-dog in your view. That some dogs have not correct pedigrees for 20 generations I´m aware of, but my point is what is a "real" FCI-dutchie then, I never said the dutchies in sweden are 100% FCI-showdogs that despite this is pretty good. What I´m saying is the dutchies used by the "she", not "he", that runs havrevingens nowadays is not low drive showdogs. That some of the earlier FCI dutchies breed here was more varying in quality is no secret, I guess it´s hard to breed good dogs when you must use what is available at the time.

I think it would be stupid to not use dogs that are good just because they are not all from correct pedigress, especially when there are so few breeding working dutchies outside KNPV. Or should the working dutchie not be breed in other countries outside KNPV and holland? The dutchies used more recently in sweden are KNPV-dogs that have been registred into FCI, like this one, but even there there are empty spots in the pedigree,
http://www.bloedlijnen.nl/stamboom.php?ID=4823

I don´t know if this is FCI showblood except nico v neerland, but apparantly he is good enough to compete in FR3, think a litter is expected after him,
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/121760/Brassai-des-Fonds-de-Gueule

Andreas, as I said earlier, apart from dutchies you can find also malinois with more or less KNPV-influence in sweden if intressted of dogs from some KNPV-background, with FCI-pedigres I suppose, this male have a litter know, 
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/11113/Filos-les-Bétulacées


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## Ellen Piepers

Erik Berg said:


> When people say KNPV-lines in this discussion, do you mean dogs with quite much KNPV-dogs in the pedigree, or only the unregistred KNPV-dogs? I mean, some dogs seems to have KNPV-titled dogs to various degree and also I suppose a registred pedigree unlike the unregistred KNPV-dogs, like these dogs for example,
> http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/922384/Era-van-het-Merlebosch


The dog you mention here is out of the same combination as my own 9-month old bitch (which is being trained in KNPV). Her mother is a litter mate of my adult bitch (both sisters are titled PH1), so there is a lot of KNPV-titled in their pedigree. However, look at the pedigrees further back in time, e.g. on the mother's side, and you will find some well-known faked stuff.

Some of my clubmates laughed when I said I wanted this pup; now they've changed their mind  (but I don't care as I have no intention of selling her)

I personally don't care what people prefer, as if all non-papered KNPV dogs were the same..... There are some lines I like, and some I don't, both in papered as in non-papered, and others I don't have an opinion on as I don't know them. Why this need to have all these general statements?


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

I feel most people are making comments without first hand experience. The fact that a dog comes from a particular sport does not mean it will act in a particular way. There are nerve bags in knpv, ipo, nvbk and just about any dog sport. Its individual breeders with their different goals that create the variety we see in temperament.
Saying that NVBK have fuller grips than KNPV dogs as if its all genetic can be a bit misleading. The KNPV suit is hard and its difficult for any dog of any kind to ALWAYS get a full bite on the knpv suit, not to mention that knpv decoys are not as static as nvbk decoys. Take a knpv line puppy and give it to a trainer like Martine Loots and see if it won't perform before u jump into conclusions. The KNPV program has proven its worth by supplying a large percentage of the dogs used for police work in the US and other countries. 
The only reason for someone to say one line of malinois is better for police work than the other i believe is just a marketing strategy, we've probably gotten bored with the gsd vs malinois argument now its nvbk vs knpv.....:-k


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## andreas broqvist

The thing is this was never and is NOT a KNPV VS NVBK thread at al. It was just about som of the difrenses.
If you have a wery soft Mali you will go faster thrue the OB clases, Its like the the frensh A and B malis. Hard vs easy to train.

None of the dogs are bad just not suited to the same stuff.

We have a dame hard GSD in my traing group. you can do what ever you want with that basterd, But to lern him OB takes extremly long time.

But its useles to go any futer becaus al the KNVP peopel somwhey get ofended by prety straigt forward questions....


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## Ellen Piepers

@andreas: not offended, it's just that you can see so much variety in KNPV that for me it doesn't make sense to generalize this much.


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## andreas broqvist

I did not mean you Ellen.
I get that is a big difrens. Just they are talking about that the KNPV dogs are so mutch better. Like when Christoper say "The Gulf between the KNPV Dutchies and the "real" FCI ones is huge" But he cant realy say why  
Then again if he ment Show Mali, ofcaus ther is a big difrens but that is tha same for NVBK, Working FCI mali and KNPV dogs. Show mali is not the same dogs.....

But I do not realy care anymore. I just nead to se them myself and se what I like.

Have a nice day.


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## Ellen Piepers

andreas broqvist said:


> I just nead to se them myself and se what I like.


Exactly!


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## Timothy Saunders

andreas broqvist said:


> I did not mean you Ellen.
> I get that is a big difrens. Just they are talking about that the KNPV dogs are so mutch better. Like when Christoper say "The Gulf between the KNPV Dutchies and the "real" FCI ones is huge" But he cant realy say why
> Then again if he ment Show Mali, ofcaus ther is a big difrens but that is tha same for NVBK, Working FCI mali and KNPV dogs. Show mali is not the same dogs.....
> 
> But I do not realy care anymore. I just nead to se them myself and se what I like.
> 
> Have a nice day.


think what is being said here is that as long as you have to consider what a dog looks like when you breed you can never get as good a quality of dog as people who don't. In the NVBK and KNPV you can have an x type (meechlar) ? herder. This allows you to breed dogs that might not be PURE dutchie or mal but brings good genes and character to the lines. You can't do that with fci


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## Erik Berg

Ellen Piepers said:


> I personally don't care what people prefer, as if all non-papered KNPV dogs were the same..... There are some lines I like, and some I don't, both in papered as in non-papered, and others I don't have an opinion on as I don't know them. Why this need to have all these general statements?


Agree on that. I guess what quality a breeder produce is depending on the dog he uses for his goal, for example some malinois FCI-breeders outside belgium/holland also uses dogs with NVBK or KNPV background, so theses dogs couldn´t be all to different. And as you said there are different types of dogs also in KNPV/NVBK.

When it comes to dutchies it´s obvious a FCI-breeder that have more show and possible easy sportdogs as a goal, and uses much real showblood also get´s a different type of dog than those who breeds unregistred KNPV-dutchies.

But I was talking about working FCI-dutchie breeders that uses real KNPV-dogs that is also registred in the FCI, or dogs with FCI-pedigree but just like the malinois situation some dogs in that pedigree may be false. Regardless if there may be some real FCI-blood in those dogs , does it matter anyway if the dogs are good, especially after a few generation when that showblood influence can´t be that large anyway?

If a working FCI-breeder breeds dutchies with papers I suppose today their dogs are not so different compared to the unregistred KNPV-dogs, because they use similar lines, the most important thing is they know what is really behind their dogs I guess, no different than for the FCI-malinois breeders.

If looking at some dutchies with unregistred KNPV-lines doing IPO, I can´t see the huge difference with a dog like this with FCI-pedigree, or the previous one posted. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZjfSgIQ4ao

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWcR...xt=C34ecbebUDOEgsToPDskLMexzYPNgFEhe8QimRLK7X

http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs_details.php?id=191389&new_lan_en


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## andreas broqvist

Timothy Saunders said:


> think what is being said here is that as long as you have to consider what a dog looks like when you breed you can never get as good a quality of dog as people who don't. In the NVBK and KNPV you can have an x type (meechlar) ? herder. This allows you to breed dogs that might not be PURE dutchie or mal but brings good genes and character to the lines. You can't do that with fci


You can still use thos dogs, you can get à FCI ped on NVBK / KNPV dogs as this tread might show you. 
The working FCI Mali is not breed for looks, If I look at x herders outside holland guys on her is talking more about looks then any of My working mal bredder friends does.
None of them have referensens to heavy weight and head size on ther webpages


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## Carmen van de Kamp

andreas broqvist said:


> You can still use thos dogs, you can get à FCI ped on NVBK / KNPV dogs as this tread might show you.
> The working FCI Mali is not breed for looks, If I look at x herders outside holland guys on her is talking more about looks then any of My working mal bredder friends does.
> None of them have referensens to heavy weight and head size on ther webpages


As my husband always says "a good horse doesn't have a color" ;-) the same goes for dogs of course...like with our 1st xHH female, we would have preferred a nice dark brindle female....Mika isn't, but that doesn't mean she is less in character, or something, as a matter of fact, she is just great, both in workability as in the offspring she produces....
Just had a discussion over looks on the club a few weeks ago, one of the older club members once sold a dog with floppy ears because of his looks, he said, knowing what he knows now he would have looked through the "bad" looks and have seen the dogs quality....
My big headed, floppy eared Mal (nicknamed Crocodile at my first club) also brought me 2 great certificates & I got to enter on the Dutch championships with him....

But ok, it's nice to have both, workability & looks that you personally prefer.


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## Timothy Saunders

andreas broqvist said:


> You can still use thos dogs, you can get à FCI ped on NVBK / KNPV dogs as this tread might show you.
> The working FCI Mali is not breed for looks, If I look at x herders outside holland guys on her is talking more about looks then any of My working mal bredder friends does.
> None of them have referensens to heavy weight and head size on ther webpages


You made made my point on the first page of this post. Fci dogs have nvbk dogs in the peds but way back. Can u breed 2 nvbk dogs and put Fci papers on them? I don't think so. Maybe st hubert


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## andreas broqvist

Yes you can.
You can show the dog and get i registred in the X-registry. 
You also have aloot of dogs directly from dogs like A´tim that are registrated as FCI dog. Down know if he has a FCI ped but he shore has NVBK dogs close upp


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## Carmen van de Kamp

andreas broqvist said:


> Yes you can.
> You can show the dog and get i registred in the X-registry.
> You also have aloot of dogs directly from dogs like A´tim that are registrated as FCI dog. Down know if he has a FCI ped but he shore has NVBK dogs close upp



In Belgium for St Hubertus you can still get a blank pedigree with 2 goods on a show with a Belgian judge, but then the pedigree is fully blank.


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## Erik Berg

These two have been used both in sweden and finland, and they have NVBK dogs close up, so I guess NVBK dogs are not impossible to use for FCI-breeders if someone wants that,
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/44621/Nierlenders-Evgeny
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/926535/Horkka-LOSH-1053431


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## Timothy Saunders

The 2 ped you posted the grandfather and the great grandparents. I give you grandparents but great grand is too far back if we are talking up close


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## andreas broqvist

You must say that Evgeny is also a NVBK dog, maby hes just 50% close upp but if you folow the pedegree the dame that he is dubbel bred on is also almost only NVBK. line bred on G'vitou .


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## Christopher Smith

This thread is like watching blind boxers. There is a lot of swinging and sweating but everyone is in the dark.


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## Carmen van de Kamp

Christopher Smith said:


> This thread is like watching blind boxers. There is a lot of swinging and sweating but everyone is in the dark.


Yup, did anyone discussing here the use of NVBK lines in FCI pedigrees ever take a look on those FCI pedigrees;-)


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## andreas broqvist

Christopher and Carmen, why downt you enligheten us.


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## Carmen van de Kamp

andreas broqvist said:


> Christopher and Carmen, why downt you enligheten us.


Look them up on bloedlijnen.nl....


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## Ellen Piepers

Carmen van de Kamp said:


> Look them up on bloedlijnen.nl....


:mrgreen: Surprised they hadn't already......


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## andreas broqvist

Yes we know they have other pedegrees..... That does not change the fact that ther is NVBK dogs Close upp and they are used on FCI dogs.
For this discution the "wrong" ped is what we shuld look at.


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