# Swedish protection/police dog tests



## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvGHRHqK-JU

I don't if anybody on this forum is familiar with these tests. Heard the dogs are truly green, no formal training before they are tested. In this particular video the judges and handler don't look so disappointed, i don't know if its normal for the dogs to walk backwards like that even though i understand its quite a lot of pressure for some dogs.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

This is not anything of the thing you wrote.
This is s smal part of the standard test for any dog in Sweden.

Evert working breed does this test around 12-18 month.
Al data is gatherd and stored in à database public to everyone.

Its à series of test done with NO traning to se how the dog reacts. Noise, gunshoot, hunting, greeting, agretion, suprise.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

This part that you saw is judged in.
Agretion
Kontrol
Afraid
Curiosity
Contact.
Ther are five levels of al thos parts.

Agretion = 1 No threat, 2 Some threats, 3 many treats for a longer period, 4 Many treats and some atacs, 5 Many treats and many atacs.

Kontrol= 1 just some looks and no interest, 2 Looks at the ghost now and then, 3 Looks at the ghost almost al the time and might react against them, 4 Reacts and shwos agretion some atacks at the ghost, 5 Many treats and atacs.

Afraid= 1 Stands infront ore at the side of the handler, 2 Mostly stands infront ore at the side of the handler,3 Mostly stands infront ore at the side of the handler. Some starts at escaping. 4. Mostly behind the handler. Some starts at escaping. 5 Are futer back the the lesh lengt, tryes to escape. 

What you want in your dog is ofcaus up to the breeder and the breed.
So this in not points like higest score is best. Just a discription of the dog and its temprament.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

interesting video and thanks for the breakdown of the testing

what i like about this kind of stuff is that it shows planning, control, and imagination; and never thought a nun could have that effect on a big bad shepherd 

imo not enough testing is ever done on dogs that will have serious jobs ... too many 15 min staked out assessments by pros who can judge a dog in minutes; who are usually already prejudiced by the pedigrees (at least that's what i see over here)


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## Annika Friberg (Mar 27, 2009)

I honestly wish they did this kind of testing - or a version of it - on ALL dogs that were used for breeding here...mental weaknesses, fear of noises, lack of ability to recover from a noise, lack of willingness to interact with a handler are issues in pet dogs as well as working dogs. 

In buying any kind of dog as a companion, it would be extremely helpful to be able to access this kind of data. It would also potentially curb the stupidity of breeding exclusively for conformation....


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

andreas broqvist said:


> This is not anything of the thing you wrote.
> This is s smal part of the standard test for any dog in Sweden.
> 
> Evert working breed does this test around 12-18 month.
> ...


Hey Andreas, 
I said i didn't know about the tests, that's why i posted for someone more knowledgeable to comment.
The dog in the video was initially stressed by the two 'ghosts' but eventually he got over it.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Sorry Oluwatobi Odunuga did not mean to sound rude.

Yes you are right he did react aloot on the Ghosts. But overal the dogs reacts more than you think. Ther is alot of stres built up in this test. It young dogs with no traing for stuff like this. NO ONE trains for this test becaus we al does them and we uses them for breeding. If peopel wuld train for them they wuld be useles.

Its pret neat becaus we registrat al thos test and more.

We have 2 types of databases that registarte the result for this and mutch more. You can look at HundData "singel dog info" on http://kennet.skk.se/hunddata/Hund_sok.aspx
You do not nead to registrate her. You can look up a dog Like aTim that we have been talking about erlyer. 

If you folow the link and write Dovre Fjeld Vasco in the *Namn* feild and press *Sök* you get his registrated info. Klick on the number "LOSH80......" under *Regnr/tävlingslicvensnr* and you will get al info on him and his ofspring born in sweden. Her you can se al the temprament test, Hips, titels and so on al his swedish ofspring.

If you want to get more info you use Avelsdata. Ther you nead to registrate but its free: http://kennet.skk.se/avelsdata/
If you loog in her you get more colected info about al his liters in sweden. % of hips, Temprament test diagram and stuff like that.

15 of 17 have done Hips and elbows

If we look at his liters her and ther helt They have 88,2 % exelent hips and the breed have 70,4% exelent hips overal. So he produces prety good hips. Elbows is 100% free and the breed have 94,5% free so oven ther hes beter.

Only 11 of 17 have done the temprament test.

On temprament you can se both a % of the 7 difrent parts of the tempramen "Contact, Play, Hund, Grip, Curiosety, Intrest, aktivety, gunshot, fear, agretion ore every valu for the 31 parts of the test.

Its kind of nice to se stuff like this. If I look at the test they started out slightly lower than the medium of the breed in Play, Grip, Fight -0,3 under. But at the end of the test when al the presure was put on them the was +0,1 over the rest of the breed


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Her you can se the Protection part of the Swedish Protection program.
It also have Ob, Tracking, Sertch, and obeject sertch befor the Protection part.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqn164PLUeM

Her you can se parts of the L-test for Police/securetydog thet teh Police does. This is my friends and her dog doing the test to se If she can use him as her securety dog. 
This test is used to se If the dog is good egnuf to start traning and hopfully be used fore Police/securety. It still nead to pass aloot of test after this to be a police dogs.

Part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ViYh2TzL2sI&feature=related
Part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QddxE2eAiJI&feature=related
Part 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSdnJwJSZEA&feature=related the "gosht" is in this test to. As you se he reacts more like you wuld want in a working dog .


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Annika Friberg said:


> I honestly wish they did this kind of testing - or a version of it - on ALL dogs that were used for breeding here...mental weaknesses, fear of noises, lack of ability to recover from a noise, lack of willingness to interact with a handler are issues in pet dogs as well as working dogs.
> 
> In buying any kind of dog as a companion, it would be extremely helpful to be able to access this kind of data. It would also potentially curb the stupidity of breeding exclusively for conformation....


Yes but its still just a test that is registarted and opend for the public. The buyer still nead to look at the test and se if they like what they se. Most Pet buyers do note look at the test ore get what its al about. 

So show breeders still breed crap


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Her is also part of a difrent test we done with ouer bulldogs.
Its mutch alike the L-test but note for the Police. We does this for a X miletary that been working with dogs fora bout 40 years. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clhIJM6Ohdo


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Could you post a link to a dog that did really well and one that did bad? 

How was the GSD in the first video rated?



Thanks


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

About the protection.
Her you can se 2 other parts of the program. This is a 9 year old GSD.

Object sertch and OB.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcVaAnRSCL8
Start 1 Minute in to the move with *Object sertch.* A 50 Meter X 50 scuare with 4 difrent objects that the dog shuld pic up and bring to the handler within 5 minutes.

4:40 into the Movie its Ob. I like the crawl at 9:40 

I cant find any movies of the Tracking and the sertch


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Tiago. If we are talking about the first movie. The test done to most dogs in sweden you can lookt at this movie for a dog that not did well.
This is a dog that for a working dog wuld do bad. But Its not a working dog so hey . Bu he wuld have goten a 5 on the test for the Afraid part, its the loest score.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-rXXqIVbiE

Prins the boxer "the movie I posted erlyer" did a good test for a working dog. Stands infront of the owner and stands his grownd.

The dog in the first movie that Oluwatobi Odunuga posted I gess wuld get a 3, maby a 4. So a medioker dog in this part of the test.As a working dog ofcaus.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

But he scoring is kind of complicated, Its difren for al breeds. But ofcaus a afraid dog is always bad. So for a pet dog you might want a 3 on this part. A dog that is mostly besides you and dose not react with mutch agretion.

If yuo look at play/grips ofcaus a working dog wuld want to have 5  The best score on that part. But a pet is ok with a 1 that is comlpetly uniterested.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Her is the complete test. The test for al dogs, NOT the police test.
This is a dog taht did a prety nice test. Good to ok scores in al the parts.
Do not forget taht ist a yung dog "15 month" that is not traind for this. 
The score is presented in the corner.

Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aS-TO4DxYtY
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpU6RmMYUvw&feature=related

HEr is a link to a disciption of what the test is al about
http://www.lapphund.nu/mheng.htm

And her is a link to the protocol in English :
http://www.lapphund.nu/lihkmhen.htm


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Annika ... " honestly wish they did this kind of testing - or a version of it - on ALL dogs that were used for breeding here "

not sure where "here" is, but of COURSE all dogs are "tested" and evaluated by responsible breeders and owners 

- few potential buyers will question a reputable breeders eval or feel that additional evaluations were necessary, especially if it's not directly related to the end product, 
......as in who cares if a sport dog would do well with kids and handle strange environments if it has strong grips and high drive on the field etc ... "that" is what buyers are looking for and will generally overlook other potential problems and not be too concerned with ensuring the dog is balanced in other areas

Sweden is lucky in some ways : small country, not as many dogs or breeders, progressive thinkers in many areas, people willing to accept a standard, etc etc 

- try and "adapt" that system to a big country like the states and you would probably be constantly fighting over disagreements on standards and scoring
- also would be a non starter for many breeders because they do not want to keep litters that long...they are in the business to sell PUPS, and it's hard to go thru this testing until a pup starts to mature (which costs the breeder more time and money)
- add that to the mindset of competition owners in ring sports ... they may not see a need for such an in depth system because of their confidence to work thru any problems the dog might show at an early age and assume it will grow out of it based on the reputation of the breeding lines

i think these types of evaluations are great, but i also realize it may be wishful thinking to feel it will ever go "global" 

otoh, from a business standpoint, if you developed a business model to do this kind of work and built up credibility and a rep for selecting only the best dogs for the desired jobs, you may be able to eventually use it to put some bread on the table, but you would probably also have to find a lot of family buyers to sell the "pet quality" dogs


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

andreas broqvist said:


> Tiago. If we are talking about the first movie. The test done to most dogs in sweden you can lookt at this movie for a dog that not did well.
> This is a dog that for a working dog wuld do bad. But Its not a working dog so hey . Bu he wuld have goten a 5 on the test for the Afraid part, its the loest score.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-rXXqIVbiE
> 
> ...


 
Thanks for explanation. Good stuff.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

rick smith said:


> ......as in who cares if a sport dog would do well with kids and handle strange environments if it has strong grips and high drive on the field etc ... "that" is what buyers are looking for and will generally overlook other potential problems and not be too concerned with ensuring the dog is balanced in other areas
> 
> - also would be a non starter for many breeders because they do not want to keep litters that long...they are in the business to sell PUPS, and it's hard to go thru this testing until a pup starts to mature (which costs the breeder more time and money)


Rick. this test is done on almost every working breed. So that we have an overal picture of Nerves, feras and drives. No one buys a dog soly based on this. This is just one more thing on topp of titels strong grips and al that hopla  This is also often doen befor the dog is titeld in anything.

We do not keep the liters untill they do this test. This is done by the owners of the dogs. So often we gather al the owners of the dogs in one liter and does the test on al of them in one day.

So from ther you can se if the dog you pict as a breeder is the best ore if you want to but a breeding from one of you pupy buyers ore if the complet liter is crap


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Andreas : thanks for all this information !
i was aware of some of the testing for dogs in Sweden but never knew it was this extensive

re: "We do not keep the liters untill they do this test. This is done by the owners of the dogs. So often we gather al the owners of the dogs in one liter and does the test on al of them in one day."

wow ! can i assume then that this is a mandatory test that is done for all working dogs in Sweden ? 
- which would seem to make it mostly the owner's responsibility, not the breeder, correct ?
- over here you would probably NEVER be able to get the litters back together to do this testing after they have been sold to buyers


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

It is not madetory for al breeds but if im not mistaken GSDs cant registrate ther ofspring if its parents are not MH tested.

But overal AL working breed breeders have in ther contract that the dog must be temprament tested at the latest 20 month of age. I think around 80% of thos dogs get tested.

But yes in the end its the owners responesbilety, But its sutch a strong tradition her so almost anyone haveing a working breed dog baugt for Sport ore work does this. And most peopel like to se ther siblings and meet the breedes and stuff to 


We have a organisation that is a Sub organisation to the SKK/FCI mother org. Its Cald SBK "Swedisg Workingdog Club". We pay 50$ a year to this org and for that we can train an comptet at any club in sweden. Ofcaus the comp cost to but we have free acsess to any club and club house.
They work for the working breeds and does a cupple of difrent test.

They are the ones that organise thos tests. They have a standard "track" on every club for this test that is almost the same everywher in sweden.
Almost evey city in Sweden have one of thos clubs. Around wher i live we have 4 Clubs in a 30 kilometer radius.

So ther are oloot of test done al year long everywher, For both working dogs and none working dogs.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Look at the link I posted erlyer http://kennet.skk.se/hunddata/Hund_sok.aspx
and in the *Name* feeld writ a kennel that you know of and click Sök. You can look and se how many of thos dogs get tested.
You can write my friends kennel if you want: krokasmeden

If you then klick on the name of a dog and then klcik tävling you will se ther test ther. Almost al dogs born befor 2011 Is tested.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

from what i read in the link provided, participation in this testing is voluntary but available to anyone who is registered w/ either SKK/SBK or has a mixed breed they want to get certified for working that's at last 12 months old ?
- is it expensive ??


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

I downt remember the price. But i think it was around 25-40 $
I have in ther eyes a mix beed so I can not to the test without applying for a special permit from SBK. Ore if I was going to make my dog a rescue dog than I also can do it without special permit.

Sweden are extremly "rassis" against non FCI breeds


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Thank You Andreas !


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

The GSD in the first video did pretty well, 14 months old, and while he backed away a bit he was quick to investigate the "ghosts" by himself.
Here is another GSD doing very well in the complete test, good drives and shows no fear,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9jDSE7Ghcs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3la_f5vP9bk&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoISZOH9FhI&feature=related

There is also a test you can do for older dogs after the test for younger dogs, the korung, which have some difference to the first test, a GSD doing most parts of it here,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRhiCfH-mlY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEBZ...xt=C3ebab47UDOEgsToPDskLbB733I1_7uYBJ9NH4J8yp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ditm...xt=C346afe4UDOEgsToPDskIKg0aL3Z9CHEg5NYhOn22K
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0fA...xt=C366c5bbUDOEgsToPDskJrXSGYLaOReFuaqJ7EEAQh
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sI30...xt=C3a56a87UDOEgsToPDskIn40_SjD9wWIfYlfwiFxzV


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Not to say it's common there but the downfall of any standard test is that there is no way to really know if the dog has had any training for it. We have the CGC and the TT here. both are supposed to show the natural character of the dog but you can even go to classes to learn all these "natrual" behaviors.
I do enjoy seeing your videos though. Thank you!


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

i love swedish trials! thanks erik.


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## Annika Friberg (Mar 27, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> Not to say it's common there but the downfall of any standard test is that there is no way to really know if the dog has had any training for it. We have the CGC and the TT here. both are supposed to show the natural character of the dog but you can even go to classes to learn all these "natrual" behaviors.
> I do enjoy seeing your videos though. Thank you!


would you really say the CGC attempts to show the natural character of the dog? It doesn't show how the dog reacts to a surprising situation, a perceived threat etc. or how fast it recovers after having been surprised. It also doesn't show the dogs interest in objects, it's drives or any such thing, only that it can walk well on a leash and can handle being around people (and that's often known people since the tester and the trainer is frequently the same person). It seems to me that all the CGC shows is that the dog has had some training and is not people shy or aggressive.

I understand what you are saying though that the dogs can be target-trained into handling those things as well, but still - I think more thorough testing could be done than the CGC, and more breed clubs could demand mental testing as a part of their breeding standards rather than to rely only on conformation or trial results to prove the dogs' quality.

Andreas, I certainly know it's not enough with the MH - but it would go further towards changing the attitude of, and expectations on, breeders.

Rick - certainly, it's a pipe dream and it would take them (the breed clubs) 10 years to fight it out what should be included...still, in the ideal world...


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Agreed, the CGC is supposed to show the dogs ability to be a "good citizen" but all the training for it defeats the purpose of it. Training can easily hide flaws that would keep some of the more nervous/shy/unstable dogs get a pass. Same with the TT. 
I agree 100% about more breed clubs need testing but that will never happen. I spent 10-12 yrs in the breed ring and often went round and round about how most of the terrier breeds are sparred against one another to see their "character". ](*,) 
Nothing will ever happen from the breed clubs to show anything other then looks and the ability to walk around the ring for 10 mins! There is no money in anything other then looks. That's why the SV is controlled by show folks and that isn't going to change for the same reason, money!
Don't even get me started on the show "stuff". :lol:


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Bob. 
No its not, but we have a loong going culture about not traning for the MH and everybody uses it so no one Will benefit from traning for it. We uses it on ouer own dogs to se how they react, to train for it wuld be to fool yourself. 
Also its mostly used in the way to look at liter avrage. So if one of 8 dog is traind for it it Will not efect the outcome that mutch. And if you look at à stud you Will look at both his MH, his siblings, and al his ofspring that might be 20-30-60 dogs.

Also the peopel doing this have had à long education befor they judge any dogs, and they judge 100 of dogs ayear, some even 1000. So they Will se the difrens if the dog is traind so mutch for this that it wuld be à big difrens.
À dog that is traind Will not react the same as à wery good dog that is not traind. 

But the main thing is that we downt se the point in traning for this and no one wuld benefit from it. 

The CGC is seen as à titel, MH is not. You Will still pass the test if you get the worst scores in every part aslong as the dog can continue. So then you have known mental status and the dog can be used/breed on even wher they have rules that the dog nead to have done the MH. Its up to the breder/Puppy buyet to se if the has what they like. 
So just à description of the dogs temprament, no high score, no titel


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

good points Bob
imo, any decent dog could be conditioned to respond well to a lot of this testing

example would be to raise the empty coveralls slowly until it was no biggy, and then pop it up quickly in the dog's face as the proofing drill 

how "trained" that conditioning would look would probably be up to the dog

the canine good citizen test is definitely trained a LOT ... i recently had a dog that supposedly had passed in the states but failed miserably when i asked the owners for a "demo" 
.... i just told em we better get their dog "recertified" 
OTOH, most people i know think of it more as a qualification/title rather than an evaluation or test

the way i see it, the Swedish tests don't provide a pass/fail grade, just a write up


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

rick smith said:


> good points Bob
> imo, any decent dog could be conditioned to respond well to a lot of this testing
> 
> example would be to raise the empty coveralls slowly until it was no biggy, and then pop it up quickly in the dog's face as the proofing drill
> ...


Yes exactly, No pass fail, just a protocol of your dogs reactions. But you can stop the test if the dog cant complete the test and then you will not get the wrtite upp.

Rick, ofcaus you can train the dog that way but its no point becaus the test if FORE the breeder / owner to se how ther dog reacts. You wuld only fool yourself. Also if you train it like that you will probobly not get that kind of reaction that is comon. 

The thing is no one is super impres by this, Its just a smal tool. Ther is no use for no one to train for this. As I wrot erlyer peoepl mostly look att liter %. So if you wuld train and trye to fool the test it does not mater that mutch. And if your dog does a super test and your litemates is avrage ore less the dog will proboly not be used anyway, Plus everyone ofcaus does other tests to. 

But again, we have a culture her that al dogs are tested without traning, green dogs and that is how we do it and has always done. If 1 % of al the dogs that are tested wuld be train befor it does not mater. Also you are not alown to talk to the dog when the dog is tested. No comands and no control-

I know peoepl cheet in geting ther dogs titeld. Buy SCH titels and the dogs cant even track when you se them, Do trails in on ther own clubs and stuff liek that. But a IPO/SCH I-II-III titel get yu more mony and more breedings. A go MH test will not  Its just a protocol of the dogs temprament.
Yes one more thing, its opend for peopel to go and se to, so If you are interested in how a sertan liter turnd out you can se them do the test if you have the time. So you will meet the dog to. 

Evertything can be cheeted on, but its kind of like going on a diet and still eat cupcakes behind the hous, Your only fooling yourself.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Thanks soooo so much Andreas and Erik, i'm glad i posted the video. I've started downloading all the videos, i think they may be useful in the future cos i plan to breed GSDs for police work.
I have a question though...since you cannot train the dog before the test, that means you have to start tug,sleeve, and suit work when the dog is already grown up. Do the dogs still learn quickly how to do the bark and hold, bite the sleeve properly etc 
Also if the dog starts training aroung 16 months old, how long will it take to finish training and sell the dog to the police units? I guess you can't sell them before they are 2 years old


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

Of course many sport/policedogs are used to biting a tug or similar when growing up, or have meet things that is a part of ordinary life. When we say not to train for these test we mean things that are unknown to the dog and not a part of normal life for a workingdog, like the surprise or more threatfull situations, training for these things will give you wrong info about the dogs character, or even give you a reaction that is not wanted, like a dull dog that show no curiosity or aggression. If a breeder in theory would gather all puppybuyers and pretrain the dogs for this test he obviously will fool himself of what type of dogs he produce in certain combinations.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Andreas
i understand EXACTLY what you say about no reason to "train" for this, and agree 1000%
- unfortunately people do dumb things just show they can brag about their dogs 
- legitimate titles have their value of course, but are often not the whole picture of the complete dog
- just too bad this system isn't used in more places !


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Erik Berg said:


> Of course many sport/policedogs are used to biting a tug or similar when growing up, or have meet things that is a part of ordinary life. When we say not to train for these test we mean things that are unknown to the dog and not a part of normal life for a workingdog, like the surprise or more threatfull situations, training for these things will give you wrong info about the dogs character, or even give you a reaction that is not wanted, like a dull dog that show no curiosity or aggression. If a breeder in theory would gather all puppybuyers and pretrain the dogs for this test he obviously will fool himself of what type of dogs he produce in certain combinations.


Ohh good,
Can you still do normal sleeve and suit work on the field before the test? Also i guess you can take the dog to the park and other places as long as you are not trying to simulate the tests


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> Thanks soooo so much Andreas and Erik, i'm glad i posted the video. I've started downloading all the videos, i think they may be useful in the future cos i plan to breed GSDs for police work.
> I have a question though...since you cannot train the dog before the test, that means you have to start tug,sleeve, and suit work when the dog is already grown up. Do the dogs still learn quickly how to do the bark and hold, bite the sleeve properly etc
> Also if the dog starts training aroung 16 months old, how long will it take to finish training and sell the dog to the police units? I guess you can't sell them before they are 2 years old


No problem, happy to help out.
Often breeders that have working Mali ore GSD test ther dogs at around 12 month. Then they do the L-test "police dog test" at 18-24 month of age. But I do not think that the Police buy dogs yunger than 24 month. I am not shore about this but i think so. Erik do you know.

We do train protection sports mutch erlyer. Its just a smal part of the test that is Tug of war, and we do not work ouer dogs in agretion that young anyway. But for a hig driven dog with alot of fight drive we can get a less good result becaus we have pasive releas in ouer program. So when the decoy stops the dog shuld releas and back of to a bark and hold. Often we informs the test leader if the dog has been protection traind befor.

When I seen the test its in one part that traning shows the most, and its Sertch and rescue dogs. When the hunchback get in to the woods and hides with a rag the sertch and rescue dogs just goes out ther 100%. But dogs that has not been traind often think abit more ther, Iven good dogs.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> Ohh good,
> Can you still do normal sleeve and suit work on the field before the test? Also i guess you can take the dog to the park and other places as long as you are not trying to simulate the tests


Yes the dogs live a normal life from puppyhood to the test. We do not have dogs Kenneld. Almost al dogs live in a famely. So its the same for al.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

andreas broqvist said:


> Yes the dogs live a normal life from puppyhood to the test. We do not have dogs Kenneld. Almost al dogs live in a famely. So its the same for al.


Just a quick thought,
If the dog is trained in bite work before the test, won't that make it easier for the dog to pass the test? I think if the dog has done suit work it may confuse the 'ghosts' as men in bitesuits and try to lunge forward.......or the dogs aren't trained in bitework before the test?


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

No I have not seen any dog that had reacted at the Ghost as a man in a suit. They move wery od, The are 3 that are walking in in difrent burst and the do not wave ore show any agretion ore play.

Many are workt in bitework befor but we do not se any difrens in them, Exept maby in the play part, Then they often are more used to tug of war and play with peopel. But not in any other part. The gost in the Mh is prety far from a decoy.

Ther is never that kind of thret in this test. The threts are ither wery static and od like the gost, ore they are quict and a suprise like the "suit" that is puld up ore the nois thar are koming from behind of the dog.

I plan on MH testing ouer last liter next month. I will trye and Video tape al 6 dogs and send to you so you can se al dogs in a liter.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

I just forgot one thing. Ofcaus a dog that has been everywher, Done olot of traning that builds confidens and makes him bolder like Sertch, Protection and stuff like that will work to the dogs advantage. But overal the first reactions are the same, but a dog that has done alot might solve the situation quicer than a dog that just lived in a kennel ore on a cautch.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

andreas broqvist said:


> No I have not seen any dog that had reacted at the Ghost as a man in a suit. They move wery od, The are 3 that are walking in in difrent burst and the do not wave ore show any agretion ore play.
> 
> Many are workt in bitework befor but we do not se any difrens in them, Exept maby in the play part, Then they often are more used to tug of war and play with peopel. But not in any other part. The gost in the Mh is prety far from a decoy.
> 
> ...


Ok, thanks for explaining. Its a good thing that people can still do normal training like sleeve work and suit work before the test so that those people that want to use the dogs for police work or for sport can do imprinting at an early age.


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## Tanya Beka (Aug 12, 2008)

These videos are great - I wish that North America would adopt some of these testing techniques so that backyard breeders wouldn't keep pushing out dogs with weak nerves that end up being euthanized for biting.

I like this thread - it is very informative and on track.

However...I have 2 questions, one that is kind of serious and one that is just my brain going off topic...

#1 - How often do the "ghosts" get bit? Are they protected under the sheets? I'd be afraid of getting nipped by a really nervous or aggressive dog.

#2 - Am I the only one who thought that these were not "ghosts" at first??? I had to do a double take to realize they weren't the "men in sheets"...  I can't be the only one who thought that.......can I?


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

He he yes they have that KKK look to them downt they 

They very seldome get bit, if the dog shows aloot of agretion the dog is not released in that state.


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## Annika Friberg (Mar 27, 2009)

> I wish that North America would adopt some of these testing techniques so that backyard breeders wouldn't keep pushing out dogs with weak nerves that end up being euthanized for biting.


not just backyardbreeders - breeding for conformation or breeding for specialized trial abilities (agility?) as well...


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## Tanya Beka (Aug 12, 2008)

Great points, thank you! 

This is fascinating - I wonder what ti would take to get it up and running in North America and how many breeders/dog owners would go for it...


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Andreas, thanks for the explainations!

Tanya, I think a lot of people would go for it but they would still train for it if it was a standardized test. 
Part of Andrea's test said that they don't do much work with their dogs till old enough to test. That's quite the norm for the European countries so I could see how the dog's may not be trained. That's not the norm here.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Bob Scott said:


> Andreas, thanks for the explainations!
> 
> Tanya, I think a lot of people would go for it but they would still train for it if it was a standardized test.
> Part of Andrea's test said that they don't do much work with their dogs till old enough to test. That's quite the norm for the European countries so I could see how the dog's may not be trained. That's not the norm here.



I was thinking the same thing too Bob,
One idea came to mind, if the breeders gave the dogs to 'normal' families or non-working folks to raise like any dog it may reduce the temptation to train. If the dog stays with an active breeder its hard to just leave the dog in the kennel.:-k


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## Esther Chai (Feb 18, 2009)

I was in the Netherlands when they had a similar test done called "nachtoefening" aka night training. It was like a half yearly event organinised between military, police and sport dogs and handlers. Completely voluntary to test the natural dogs reactions and behaviour according to age and experience.

The setting is usually done at night in the woods. They want the atmosphere to be as neutral as possible so that the dogs are not expecting any bitework or threats etc. Then each dog is tested whilst on a stroll with say 4-5 individuals like a night camping stroll.

If it was a young green dog, they may test for its reaction from a bush rattling nises or a stranger with funny clothes from a distance in the shadows. For more experience dogs, it could be dummy falling off a tree say, 6 feet away from approach or some dunkard loud mouth youth misbehaving and possible bitework involved.

The point of the exercise is the unexpected scenario to be set on the day.

I do like this kind of testing methods because I doubt one can 100% train for the unexpected. One test or another it will invariably display some true colours of what the dog is made of IMO. What is the point of courage test when a dog backs off and runs aways from a falling dummy ie in the element of surprise. It happens.

These test are not meant to push the boundaries but only to the level appropraite tp the dog's age and experience. I guess the "unexpectted scenarios " just have to be more varied and imaginative.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Bob. 
I agree with you that if you set up this now in the USA i also think peopel wuld train for it, and also only à smal part of every breed wuld do. They wuld se it as à titel and not just à evaluation. 

The good thing for us is that almost everyone from pet owner to sport/police traners does it and have done so in many many generations. 

About the traning, as i wrote erlyer we do train ouer dogs in sports befor this. 
But as Esther sed the point is to have à neutral place and situations the dog has not been in to befor. 

I live in the city and My dogs are used to odd peopel, loud nois and al that, they wher started in protection, wp and ob but i still gott big reactions in this environent.

Often we let the control go 1-2 weeks befor, so that the dog feel it can do what ever it want. Ther are no comands ore control from the handler during the test.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

He he one more thing  
One way to use it and to get the most out of it wuld be if the breeder made the test for ther own liters. Have à traning weekend when the dogs are around 1 year and take à day to do this. If the breeder tell the owner not to train for this hoppfully they will lisen. Then the breeder can keep this data and se how ther breeding is turning out. Its always wery interesting to se the colected reactions for compete liters. 
If many bredders does this you culd start à database together. The test is prety straight forward and does not lett the breeder it self to put ther views on it.

If you look at the link i posted to the protokoll you can se that its easy to se how the dogs reacts and wher you shuld put your "points"

Like with the sound. 1 the dog croutch and the checks the sound source. 5 The dog flee more that 5 metets.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I like it...but...

Many breeders are not going to want to see their dogs get low scores in the tests, if they did, they are also not gonna want to deal with the customers complaining about their dogs that did poorly on the tests, that they paid alot of money for..in addition to the fact that many people would try to train for it...

in a perfect world, or apparently in Sweden this is not the case...


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> I like it...but...
> 
> Many breeders are not going to want to see their dogs get low scores in the tests, if they did, they are also not gonna want to deal with the customers complaining about their dogs that did poorly on the tests, that they paid alot of money for..in addition to the fact that many people would try to train for it...
> 
> in a perfect world, or apparently in Sweden this is not the case...


Yes that might be the case. But then again then they downt realy breed for good dogs ither. If you downt want to find the faults in you dogs and breed away from them why be a breeder. If its not for money ofcaus


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

I don´t think a customer care so much how a dog does in these tests, it could still be a good dog for high level SCH or whatever they have the dog for, you don´t need a very brave and confident dog for most activities civilian people do with a dog, as long as it have enough motor. If it´s a policedog the less standardized version of these tests is mandatory, but there you pressure the dogs more until you see what you want and are free to add things to get a more in depth look at the dog. But you shouldn´t look to onesided just on points in these tests, its as always best to see the dog for yourself and decide if you like him.

Even if some dogs have an advantage due to their previous experience it´s still hard to get a dog with less natural qualities, for example in preydrive and biting full, to do this with the same intensity , that the more genetically gifted dog will do. The general show GSD will probably not show the same drive as a malinois when it comes to biting and playing regardless how much training. A breeder that regulary demanding his puppybuyers to train every aspect of the test would fool himself and also very likely get a bad reputation due to "cheating". It´s basically a tool for breeders foremost, to test many dogs in a simple matter, if they don´t want to take advantage of these tests it´s up to them.

This is a dog with previous bitetraining for sport doing a selectiontest for security/policedogs, as you can see this experience doesn´t carry over so much when tested on the "sledge",
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8sx...xt=C3c82395UDOEgsToPDskIxxES2cA0b8NvC55M4UkhR

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaDx...xt=C36532fcUDOEgsToPDskIygFia13nZ7lTa1MpYDYCT


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

" If its not for money ofcaus







"

Unfortunately the deciding factor for many.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

This is a wery nice reaction. This dog is protection traind. He has biten me bloody 
But as you se he dosent react like a dog does when doing protection.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFx3YfX_gz0&feature=related


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

I agree that it should not have an effect on most puppy buyers, if all you want is a dog that can get high IPO scores and is stable nerved then many of the dogs that fail the test will still be ok for most customers. How many of us regularly go into forests with our dogs to confront 'ghosts' ?


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Erik Berg said:


> I don´t think a customer care so much how a dog does in these tests, it could still be a good dog for high level SCH or whatever they have the dog for, you don´t need a very brave and confident dog for most activities civilian people do with a dog, as long as it have enough motor. If it´s a policedog the less standardized version of these tests is mandatory, but there you pressure the dogs more until you see what you want and are free to add things to get a more in depth look at the dog. But you shouldn´t look to onesided just on points in these tests, its as always best to see the dog for yourself and decide if you like him.
> 
> Even if some dogs have an advantage due to their previous experience it´s still hard to get a dog with less natural qualities, for example in preydrive and biting full, to do this with the same intensity , that the more genetically gifted dog will do. The general show GSD will probably not show the same drive as a malinois when it comes to biting and playing regardless how much training. A breeder that regulary demanding his puppybuyers to train every aspect of the test would fool himself and also very likely get a bad reputation due to "cheating". It´s basically a tool for breeders foremost, to test many dogs in a simple matter, if they don´t want to take advantage of these tests it´s up to them.
> 
> ...


Wow...that dog was really scared, unfortunately it didn't seem to overcome later. Was that a dutchie or black mali?

This is the best reaction i have seen so far, i've spent the past few days looking for videos on the test.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uV06jebHfo&feature=related


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## Annika Friberg (Mar 27, 2009)

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> I agree that it should not have an effect on most puppy buyers, if all you want is a dog that can get high IPO scores and is stable nerved then many of the dogs that fail the test will still be ok for most customers. How many of us regularly go into forests with our dogs to confront 'ghosts' ?


But how can a dog be stable nerved if they can't recover quickly from unexpected things (ghosts in the forest) and can't handle change and new environments or noise without tons of stress, fear or fear aggression? How would you define stable nerved in that case?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

If I watched a video of two dogs doing poorly in the tests, and pups were sold out of them, I do not care what I wanted to do with the puppy, I would not buy one...period...

neither would IPO people most likely, I dont think just because someone is doing the sport, means that they intentionally go out and select dogs or pups out of dogs, that perform poorly on tests given...and I think they want the dogs nerves as solid as anyone else does..

although I suppose even though the test is voluntary and public, I doubt the people selling puppies would draw attention to videos of their dogs sucking, or the scores if they were bad...

all in all I think it is a good test, I just dont agree that bad scores IF KNOWN would not affect puppy sales...


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## Esther Chai (Feb 18, 2009)

To me, these evaluation of young/ older dog's natural reaction to strange sight and sounds in neutral setting, is like an extension from the Volhard’s Puppy Aptitude Testings.


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## Tanya Beka (Aug 12, 2008)

Esther Chai said:


> To me, these evaluation of young/ older dog's natural reaction to strange sight and sounds in neutral setting, is like an extension from the Volhard’s Puppy Aptitude Testings.


Yes, but where is there an online database in North America where you can see what a breeder's puppies are like? That's the interesting part...


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> If I watched a video of two dogs doing poorly in the tests, and pups were sold out of them, I do not care what I wanted to do with the puppy, I would not buy one...period...
> 
> neither would IPO people most likely, I dont think just because someone is doing the sport, means that they intentionally go out and select dogs or pups out of dogs, that perform poorly on tests given...and I think they want the dogs nerves as solid as anyone else does..
> 
> ...


Yes as I sed erlyer, its just à description of the dogs temprament, if you do not break the test you get "known temprament status" even if you get the worst ore best scores. Its up to the buyer to chose if they want à pupp from crappy dogs 

But often ther is alot of talk and breeders breeding on dogs with bad scores get à bad repp. But as always ther are peopel buying dogs without checking anything. The show peopel sell dogs on show titels not temprament


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Annika Friberg said:


> But how can a dog be stable nerved if they can't recover quickly from unexpected things (ghosts in the forest) and can't handle change and new environments or noise without tons of stress, fear or fear aggression? How would you define stable nerved in that case?



I didn't mean to imply that people will intentionally buy weak nerved dogs and i think a dog failing this test does NOT mean it has weak nerves it just means it won't make a good police or protection dog. Many of our IPO dogs will not react as we expect, how many of us are going to throw away those dogs because of that. The fact that a dog is scared of 'ghosts' in a very strange environment that it has never been to before does not mean it can not live in an urban setting without 'misbehaving'. The goal of the test is to select suitable prospects for police and protection work, as it so happens not all puppy/dog buyers are SWAT or SEAL team members, many of these dogs that fail will still be considered stable dogs. They'll still play with strangers, allow kids to rough house them etc and do decent sport work so.............
On the other hand if majority of the buyers are police or other law enforcement then it will surely have an effect....Just my opinion anyway:grin:


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvGHRHqK-JU
> 
> I don't if anybody on this forum is familiar with these tests. Heard the dogs are truly green, no formal training before they are tested. In this particular video the judges and handler don't look so disappointed, i don't know if its normal for the dogs to walk backwards like that even though i understand its quite a lot of pressure for some dogs.


 
Holy crap!!!!! Never mind the dogs! I'm freaked out by those "ghosts!" I would have run and left the dog to figure it out!


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Zakia Days said:


> Holy crap!!!!! Never mind the dogs! I'm freaked out by those "ghosts!" I would have run and left the dog to figure it out!



Hahahahah.......thanks for adding some humour to the discussion
That part of the test is really easy to do in any part of the world, the only 'equipment' you need is the white overall.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

does everyone let the dogs loose to approach the ghosts? do any dogs attack the ghosts???


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## Annika Friberg (Mar 27, 2009)

> I didn't mean to imply that people will intentionally buy weak nerved dogs and i think a dog failing this test does NOT mean it has weak nerves it just means it won't make a good police or protection dog. Many of our IPO dogs will not react as we expect, how many of us are going to throw away those dogs because of that. The fact that a dog is scared of 'ghosts' in a very strange environment that it has never been to before does not mean it can not live in an urban setting without 'misbehaving'. The goal of the test is to select suitable prospects for police and protection work, as it so happens not all puppy/dog buyers are SWAT or SEAL team members, many of these dogs that fail will still be considered stable dogs. They'll still play with strangers, allow kids to rough house them etc and do decent sport work so.............
> On the other hand if majority of the buyers are police or other law enforcement then it will surely have an effect....Just my opinion anyway


You're right in a lot of this. You can live with a weak nerved dog as a "regular" dog owner, doing IPO or a line of other sports, and you can teach the dog to put up with a bunch of stuff. I know this because I have a "weak nerved" dog right now and just moved cross-country to a completely new type of environment, housing situation, much more traffic around our area...it's taken him some time but he's dealing with it. 

The question though is why WOULD I as a regular dog owner have to settle for mentally weak dogs, especially if I buy them from a reputable breeder at full price, and especially if there are ways to breed on lines that are balanced and have solid nerves?! I'd much rather put up with the dog being ugly than with it being scared/stressed  . But maybe that's just me...


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Joby. Yes the dogs are releast. But not if its in full blown agretion  
No they wery seldom get bit. They just stand ther and do not Move. Most dogs just check them out. Ither they get hapy/uninterseted when they get its a human ore they are to afraid to check it out.

Ther is not many dogs that Will atack somone standing still making no threats in à new area with nothing to gain from it.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

andreas broqvist said:


> Ther is not many dogs that Will atack somone standing still making no threats in à new area with nothing to gain from it.


I know, just seemed like a few dogs that may be scared, may try to bite...that was why I asked...


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> I know, just seemed like a few dogs that may be scared, may try to bite...that was why I asked...


Doubtful that a fearful dog will bite if it has a way out. These dogs have a choice of direction if they feel that threatened.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> Doubtful that a fearful dog will bite if it has a way out. These dogs have a choice of direction if they feel that threatened.


ya, again not great wording there...

shoulda said startled..


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