# Yessssss! The myth of Dog Aggression is *done*!



## Lloyd Kasakoff (Jun 15, 2008)

Yes, there are dozens of ways to train a dog. We really only know a couple and we're somewhat new to the dog world. Yes, it's true - we've tried to learn from many, misstepped along the way, but here we are, trucking along...so try not to hindsight and Monday morning quarterback, and share our little victory with us.

It all started when at 3 months old, when a friend of ours decided to "punk" our male dog to see what he was made of. The puppy bit him, and the friend became all amped up wanting to buy him on the spot. Due to a a wholistic Vet in New England, late vaccinations resulted in the dogs not being socialized after a parvo outbreak and our relocation to California. Since then, we've struggled with the fear of dog aggression. More with the boy than the girl. 

Yes, the boy ended up biting a couple of humans as a puppy. One was a complete moron who wanted to see "what he was made of". Another was a person refusing to stay away because "he was great with dogs". Since then, we have suffered through taking the dogs out in public, resorting to either muzzles or else. Yes, we've wanted them socialized. That said, one trainer wanted $1,000 for a week's worth of work. Another wanted to charge us $700 a month to be part of their ring club. Sadly, buying into the myth, we had our challenges with our dogs. 

We tried going to puppy socialization classes; the dogs would get completely amped up. Loose leash, no matter. Heckles and growling, snapping and attempted bites. It seemed really hard to deal with. 

The first real attempt began with Sooopah Bernhard Flinks. He had a fairly determined way to deal with it. In a way, it was great, in another, we wished we could have done it differently. That was almost a year ago. He has to be one of the most enjoyable trainers to work with, by a long shot. 

We then worked with SCABR - Adrian Centeno is always nice and gracious with his time. After dabbling in Schutzhund with the pups, there were no clubs in OC at the time that had openings, but Leri Hansen was kind enough to let us train with them for a while. Fortunately the pups had what it took to compete in ringsport - that said, fixing Aggression is not and should not be the charter of the club, understandably so. 

After the previous club couldn't train in a public field anymore due to public complaints, the club shut down for a bit. We went to a different French Ring club; while some of our time was enjoyable there and we made some friends, the "neutral dog" owned by the training director turned out to be fairly aggressive (he'd dispute it), yet we witnessed it take out several dogs, including our own. A $3000 trip visit to the Vet after his dog bit ours, having him help us with dog aggression didn't quite seem the way to go. We struggled leaving French Ring for a number of reasons - and we were concerned we wouldn't be able to complete a CSAU with the boy. Adrian offered to help; we just didn't know what to do. 

Wait! With Mondioring, we could complete a Brevet without a CSAU - and it would carry over to French Ring. Yay! A quick trip to Mondio and back to French Ring, and all would be OK. Let's try it...so we did. Unfortunately, Mondio is still in its nascent stages and not many clubs are around, an issue of frequency in training - hopefully it will grow, but again - we're trying to work in the sport, at the same time we're worried about something else. Hm.

Finally, a break, we thought. We started training with OJ Knighten on weekends - OJ Runs a great training class on weekends and is an expert in dealing with dog aggression issues. We attended a couple of sessions during weekends. Sadly, the park we trained in (as so many parks with other clubs and sports) was shut down from off leash work; too bad. 

At last, we have been working with Sandrine Clark on Mondio - with Joaquim Dovat, both pups were able to complete their Brevet; yes! Ring 1, not so much that month - we tried, but we didn't make it. Finally, this month, the girl got her MR1 under Judge Willig, and the boy was able to complete a leg. Someone mentioned our girl was aggressive during the trial; so now, we worried again. 

After a judge's discussion subsequent to her first leg, we examined the videotape of the tournament, and noticed something really interesting...the reason the girl nipped. It was pretty simple, yet astounding...the judge said not to worry, and to enter her the following day. Had it not been for the assistant judge bringing up the issue, we would have probably never caught what happened as and have been able to fix it...one thing we noticed: a person with a dangling leash hanging from their pocket, tapping it, getting the dog on the trial field distracted, almost like waiting for a ball (or a leash, used on occasion as a reward) to come out.

...so, finally, after working with experts and good samaritans alike, after criticism and crap, I decided to say....screw it. And like in the book of illusions, similar to one of the creatures that clung, I opted to let go and take my tumbles down the river

The pictures you see below are a result of that. The French Mondio Ring judge had some really interesting and great observations that were invaluable. While it may seem like a boringly simple problem to many, to live in fear of having a possibly aggressive dog based on people's innuendo, rumors, fears and no real aggressive acts is hard. I just wanted to share this silly, but very important moment in our dog training life with y'all. 

And to the very literal, our dogs aren't aggressive - not defensive aggressive, not dominant aggressive, not any of it...but happy, comfortable, prey driven dogs. To all that have helped, thank you...and Thanks for visiting....

First, the Girl....


























































Now, the boy...


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

> Yes, the boy ended up biting a couple of humans as a puppy. One was a complete moron who wanted to see "what he was made of". Another was a person refusing to stay away because "he was great with dogs".


I hate people that do the "but all dogs love me" - ugh.

You just have to take it with a grain of salt. An "aggressive" dog is subjective to the person calling it aggressive. A lot of those that deem a dog "aggressive" also don't know when to stop either, like the "all dogs love me" people.
I would hope someone that punked my dog got nailed for their efforts, as I wouldn't be keen on allowing them to do it in the first place. Just remember, those that say "oh your dog is mean" don't have to live with it - you do.
Sounds like you have a good outcome.


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## Jeff Threadgill (Jun 9, 2010)

Congrats on the progress! Nice looking pups


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## Lloyd Kasakoff (Jun 15, 2008)

Thanks guys! Appreciate the kind words. 

Sometimes "Dogsport" can place you in an alternate reality with all the melodrama that comes with it. But...that's a different thread... 

This certainly gives us a lot more amplitude as we try to train for our ring 1 and 2...


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

So what exactly did you do in the way of "screw" it and take your tumbles. 

I have a snarky little female and I am certain others would have an issue if I allowed her to snap at their dogs. She is fine with dogs she knows.

My male is a sweetheart who is fairly dog neutral and has never presented one moment of agression towards dogs even when provoked.


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## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

I think people expect too much from some dogs
how many of you breeders or sellers have heard this " I want a super high drive dog with a lot of fight but I want him ok with small hyper children"
not all dogs can be left to run in a dog park or playground unattended. That is ok.

its like John Travolta in "Michael" "I'm not that kind of Angel."


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Congrats Lloyd :smile: I know that feeling is very therapeutic (for the owners and dogs too). I lived what you've gone through and maybe still do. Neither of my two boys are dog aggressive but very high arousal. And for sure no community toys could be involved. It's certainly not a relaxing feeling when they are out and about.

I cringe when I think about dog parks but I would like to know how big that lump was in your throat when you first took your dogs inside and cut them loose


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Mike Lauer said:


> I think people expect too much from some dogs
> how many of you breeders or sellers have heard this " I want a super high drive dog with a lot of fight but I want him ok with small hyper children"
> not all dogs can be left to run in a dog park or playground unattended. That is ok.
> 
> its like John Travolta in "Michael" "I'm not that kind of Angel."


When I bred my dog and thought she was prego I put an ad on Pedigree Database...got a bunch of calls...blah blah blah...emailed this one guy a few times back and forth...about a pup...I explained both parents very accurately and the traits the pups would most likely exhibit...then out of left field, he sent me email asking how the stud dog was in the house with the kids and wife...I told him the stud sent a Navy Seal to the hospital for trying to put him in the kennel and the bitch attacked me over a cigarette butt...


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

LMAO Joby...nice deterrent.


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## Adi Ibrahimbegovic (Nov 21, 2008)

Thank you for the post and congrats on your successes.

However, after reading it twice, I am still left baffled:

what exactly was the agression issue (was it dominance, nerves, non-socialized... what?

and
what was the cure:
i read about a person dangling a leash on the field... is that what got them agressive?

I know I am dumb, but I am still confused about the causes, outcomes and training done to overcome (relative term, I'd say) all of it.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

adi ibrahimbegovic said:


> thank you for the post and congrats on your successes.
> 
> However, after reading it twice, i am still left baffled:
> 
> ...


me +1


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> me +1


Me+2 - You can't tell me "dog aggression" is a myth. What was the story with this dog?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Me+2 - You can't tell me "dog aggression" is a myth. What was the story with this dog?


the "story" is a lot of vagarities (sp) period.... lets hear specifics..blah blah blah..


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## Lloyd Kasakoff (Jun 15, 2008)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Me+2 - You can't tell me "dog aggression" is a myth. What was the story with this dog?


I didn't say that "Dog Aggression" was a myth.  For us, it seems to be with our dogs. Both dogs have nipped or bitten depending on circumstance; see below.



Joby Becker said:


> the "story" is a lot of vagarities (sp) period.... lets hear specifics..blah blah blah..


I posted some specifics, not just vagaries  I'll try to be more detailed...



Adi Ibrahimbegovic said:


> ...However, after reading it twice, I am still left baffled:
> 
> what exactly was the agression issue (was it dominance, nerves, non-socialized... what?
> 
> and what was the cure: i read about a person dangling a leash on the field... is that what got them agressive?


OK. Again - let me qualify this: we're NEWBIES. First dog litter, first pups. We know we have made tons of mistakes, there are hundreds of experts, blah blah. This is sharing our experience, not looking for criticism unless it's a positive remark.

In my previous post, I mentioned the pups were NOT SOCIALIZED. It started with very late vaccinations, continued with a parvo outbreak in the neighborhood, and more. We would certainly do things different today, but hindsight is...well...just that. 

So - on Dog Aggression - we're talking about 2 dogs here, the boy and the girl. 


THE MALE (Black Shepherd):

Historically, the dog was called "dog aggressive" by "trainers". Some said it was a real issue; others said "it's really not a big deal - he's not aggressive." 

The aggression was manifested in the boy by visible heckles (from 3-4 months on), charging other dogs (smaller or larger), but no "backwards ears" or "bared fangs". In short, someone said it was "DOMINANT AGGRESSION". No growling was involved. Where and when did it start? Probably from him and his sister playing rough when they were young, the sister getting the upper hand, and too many people insisting to "let them sort it out". 

Heck, the boy would charge at *dog statues* heckles on. Checking out the Mondioring 2007 tournament with statues of chickens, goats, and god knows what else, I knew we needed to do something. He would charge at dogs, but never to the point where he would completely try to destroy other dogs as we witnessed multiple times at the dog park amongst other dogs. 

Of the many "expert" books we read on the topic, one suggested "flooding" without any sense of pacing by taking them to a place like the dog park. I gotta tell you, "flooding" an 85 lb. dog with his share of bitework under his belt, even with 2 people holding him (muzzle, no muzzle) was certainly stressful for the dog, and without, watch out for REDIRECTION AGGRESSION bites. We certainly witnessed what we think would be some FEAR AGGRESSION at the park. We simply introduced the dog park too soon and without proper coaching.

With humans? Bernhard Flinks first introduced us to the term "Zivil Bleissen" during a seminar when he was fascinated with the male dog, wanted him for his personal patrol work, and said he wasn't aggressive, but very tempered and "zivil". You could come close and he'd be fine; stranger would get close to his face, and while he can target great, he'd simply SNAP in warning without biting. Michael Ellis while working with us put his hands around the dogs snout / crown in a somewhat fast motion a few times, and the male nipped at him - Michael was quick to say it was "his fault" but we knew we needed to have the male be a little "less zivil" for the sport. We have videotape of someone playing with a tug and him biting the person's hand...why and how? The person was wearing fuzzy gloves...and it happened way too fast. The same person has played with him many times since with no incident, as have many others.

He's certainly possessive, but we didn't notice any cases of POSSESSIVE AGGRESSION. In fact, having a tug in his mouth was one of the ways that many strangers have pet him, without incident, and helped in socializing him. We're teaching the object guard to him with PLACE and FOOD. No PREY AGGRESSION - chasing cyclists, skateboarders, etc. 

He has been on 5 trials with no incidents with anyone.

How did the boy get to be where he is today? 

1) A few sessions of socialization with OBJECTS IN HIS MOUTH around humans and other dogs, with petting involved. A muzzle, regardless of introducing it with peanut butter, positive reinforcement, etc...heightens his AROUSAL - at some point I'll deal with it if I return to French Ring. This didn't fix it all - but it was a baby step. 

2) Petco, with little aggressive noisy rats running around, was not much consolation for the boy. Not a good scene.

3) At first, walking him into the dog park giving wide berth to other dogs, while in a muzzle and leash. Yes, it did get him a little annoyed, but he settled. Every time he'd try to remove the muzzle, a good LEAVE it with reinforcement moved things along. 

At a park, all dog owners are "experts". Everyone is quick to tell you how bad it is to have a dog muzzled. Most everyone is afraid of a confident Black Shepherd in a muzzle around their dog, but a few good samaritans will get that you're trying to "socialize your dog" and will eagerly pet him and let their dogs play along with yours. Amazing the number of dogs that will just come up to your dog, roll on their back, and be submissive without reaction from our dog, and some owners understand and are quite willing to let your dog experiment with theirs.

Patience is involved. 

If the dog shows any visible dog aggression (as opposed to them "sorting it out", you must immediately remove your dog from most dog parks, so with a loose leash and a calm demeanor, you gotta let the dog know that aggression is simply *not* acceptable; as he's able to calm down and have other dogs sniff, visit, and be okay, positively reinforce every time an encounter happens where he doesn't react. 

You have to be paying very close attention to your dog without imposing and adding to the stress. 

I then moved to obedience in the dog park. Big stretch, not popular, to some controversial, but...it's my dog, so...who cares. Formal ball retrieves from a short distance away from other dogs. Slowly let him retrieve with other dogs next to him "escorting him", and a bonanza of rewards when he comes back with the ball and properly presents. At times, let him keep the ball while other dogs sniff the ball, his snout, his crown, etc. If he stays unreactive, he gets affection, as he's motivated by that. If he gets distracted, a quick "hey" to get his attention back.

Once he starts feeling safe around other dogs because his owner won't let him get bitten or punked, we venture out a little more. Let him take a little more independent space. Give him a slight opportunity around other dogs to mess up, with a very close eye and distance. The more unreactive he is, the more freedom and space he gets, or pets for that matter. Slowly, he gets that he can run a little bit in a pack with other dogs and be okay. 

We continue going back and forth between ball retrieves, which he likes and tire him out a little, and spending time around other dogs at the water bowls and other groups of people and dogs. 

Notice he's put in many situations where he can show various types of aggression - around the water bowl, toys, etc. Every time he stays unreactive, he's rewarded or comforted. Everytime he's thinking about aggression (staring, heckles, etc...) BAM - hey! no. When he stops it, he gets what he wants again. 

The pictures were over 3 separate sessions with more after and more to come. Is he fully cured? Geezus - is any dog ever? I hope so - but it's keeping a close watch for a long time. The recipe is to keep it up on the practice to make sure the dog doesn't slip up. Dog bites equal expenses or lawsuits, neither of which we care for. 

In fact, how I've been trying to tidy up the male's obedience for trial under distraction is...at the dog park. No wandering around, no slacking...if he does his job well, he's released to go drink water, play, hang out with other dogs, meet strangers, chase *THE SAME BALL*, etc. 

Eventually, he simply wants a shady spot under a bench, lets other dogs come by and sniff, and be left alone. 

THE FEMALE (Sable Shepherd).

Well, she's certainly occassionally airheaded - an infinitely more "thinking dog", she has never really shown any dog aggression. She's been around other dogs, people, and nary a problem. 

People? One incident only, with the same person nipped by the male dog - and the dog warned them as well. She is MASSIVELY attached to her mom. It's strange - she's always blazing fast to return. That said, this is completely different during a trial; perhaps the stress level, perhaps she can read minds, but on all her trials she has simply and unpredictable (to us) checked out. So, one time, while working on the long jump, the person in question held her back while her mom was on the other side of the long jump. The dog got amped up, wanted to go, was held back until the command was given to release her, we were asked to amp her up even more, the dog wanted to go, so she turned around, barked, redirected a nip at the person's leg, and then jumped. Predictable and preventable? Possibly, sure, but can hardly be deemed as "human aggression". She's been petted and played with amongst dozens of strangers. 

She's been lacking a few social manners - but we're certainly cleaning this up now. 

So, it was a bit baffling to me how during a trial, someone on the field (not the judge) stated the dog was "vicious" and shouldn't be in the sport. "vicious" is a strong word, and if I were to use the term amongst some of you more experienced personal protection trainers, we'd get our share of ridicule and belly laughs, specially when we've met a few that were being trained specifically for PP and were entirely actively aggressive. 

"Vicious" was used in this context. While on the trial field, in a heel with her owner, moving between exercises, the dog wandered off 2-3'. She sniffed what was in one person's pocket, recognized her dangling leash, and went to get it. A couple of minutes later, she approached the person again, and nudged her and when the person didn't respond, she tugged at the person's pants. Unacceptable? Sure. There were several people on the field, and none including the judge saw the dangling or the nip, except for the person - not the handler (until a later review of the video). Lesson to us? Be more watchful and have more control of the dog, specially as you never know what dangling objects can sneak up on the field and distract your dog. She certainly needs far more control and manners in the dog field as a young dog. 

That same day, the issue was discussed with the judge by the handler - to proceed with trial or not? The judge smiled and said "I didn't see a problem - trial her again!". In fact we spoke to 4 other trainers, and all said to enter her again. One said "she's a pushy dog - she won't cause any problems".

The following day, she trialed...and passed. The dangling leash wasn't noticed by us until the second day, except it was a bit more pronounced.

So...was she "vicious" or aggressive? While we're still learning, improving, and making sure we're working our dogs, and there are always at least two sides to every story, check out the pictures...and you be the judge.


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