# Taking a bite from your own dog



## Beth Koenig (Jul 4, 2011)

I want to get the general opinion of taking a bite from your own dog. Good? Bad? This is regarding police and sport dogs. A lot of sport people do it, a lot of police officers refuse to take a bite from their own dog because they say that tells their dog it is ok to bite them as a handler. Sport people generally do not agree. Opinions?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

beth koenig said:


> i want to get the general opinion of taking a bite from your own dog. Good? Bad? This is regarding police and sport dogs. A lot of sport people do it, a lot of police officers refuse to take a bite from their own dog because they say that tells their dog it is ok to bite them as a handler. Sport people generally do not agree. Opinions?


who are you?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Hi, Beth,

Here's where an intro (bio) goes:

http://www.WorkingDogForum.com/vBulletin/f20/


Thanks!


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## Kevin Walsh (Sep 8, 2009)

I think it depends on the dog, and you could probably refer to a post Don just made recently regarding genetics & pushing/pulling.
IMO, a clear headed sports dog can deal with handler bites. The dog is mostly in prey (play). 
What is the underlying motivation to give your own dog bites?


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## Kevin Walsh (Sep 8, 2009)

forgot to say:

Hi Beth, welcome....how is Hemi?


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Beth, why would you? To have your dog bite and fight with the pack leader is like giving license to a mouthy kid to question EVRYTHING the parent says...

I lead and my dogs better follow...thank goodness they do it with joy in their heart! =D>


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## Justin Gannon (Nov 17, 2008)

Beth,

How is your world tour going? Agile needs his photographer back. Let me know when you want another agile puppy. Agile/cyn pups should be born by November or December. Since I know nothing about dog training, I cannot comment on your question. Take care


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

OOPS...

Welcome..

plenty of people take bites from there own dogs with mixed results..From pups in training, to adults...
I do it..

Police are usually training a dog to ultimately fight and hurt people. I do not know any police officers that take bites from there own dogs when they are adults and are working the streets, there probably are some though.

There are plenty of dogs where it wouldn't be a problem, there are some dogs however where it is not wise at all to do....


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Depends on the dog and the way of having him take a bite.
With most dogs it isn't a problem when done in a playful way. But when you create coflict, it can be dangerous.


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

I know someone who takes bites from his GSD and you can tell...there is a huge disconnect between him and his dog.


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## Pete Stevens (Dec 16, 2010)

Military and law enforcement handlers shouldn't take a bite from their own dogs. In that situation, it is not a game and it is never ok to bite the handler. Sport? Eh....I've seen it because its not about the human target, its the sleeve for Schutzhund. Ring sport? Probably not...but its called sport for a reason. I had a handler agressive patrol dog, no way I'm rewarding him with a bite on me.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

I think the fact that most Police Officers don't raise their dogs from puppies might play a part too in why mant PO's don't think its a good thing . I think you can make it just a game with the handler if done at a young age . Trying to do it when they are adults with other training already into the dog can be a recipe for disaster. I know I tried to take bites from both of my K9's just to see their reaction to it being me . Tried to make it fun but both didn't like it at all . My last, Bingo taught me never to do that stupid **** again . He got very stressed and he eventually came off the sleeve and started to go for my legs . Kind of uncommitted bites but bites none the less . I think his intent was to drive me off because I was stressing him and he wanted the problem (me) to go away .


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

Jim Nash said:


> My last, Bingo taught me never to do that stupid **** again . He got very stressed and he eventually came off the sleeve and started to go for my legs . Kind of uncommitted bites but bites none the less . I think his intent was to drive me off because I was stressing him and he wanted the problem (me) to go away .


 Glad you didn’t get hurt, but thats a pretty funny visual.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Hi Beth, finally you´re here..

I dont think its wise to take a bite of your own dog.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

I was actually laughing myself . I figured it would end something like that when I started . Curiousity just got the best of me and confirmed what I already knew or should have known about him . I have to say I admired him for pointing out my stupidity at the time .


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

For me it depends on what the dogs going to be doing. I will not work a dog between drives that is my dog. Even training in prey the dog pretty quickly sees you as the "toy" and is forever wanting a fun game of "bite the decoy". This can set up conflict between you and the dog that creates confusion. A serious bite dog in PP or PSD that is pushed into defense is not the dog to be taking bites from as the owner. JMHO


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Jim Nash said:


> I think the fact that most Police Officers don't raise their dogs from puppies might play a part too in why mant PO's don't think its a good thing . I think you can make it just a game with the handler if done at a young age . Trying to do it when they are adults with other training already into the dog can be a recipe for disaster. I know I tried to take bites from both of my K9's just to see their reaction to it being me . Tried to make it fun but both didn't like it at all . My last, Bingo taught me never to do that stupid **** again . He got very stressed and he eventually came off the sleeve and started to go for my legs . Kind of uncommitted bites but bites none the less . I think his intent was to drive me off because I was stressing him and he wanted the problem (me) to go away .


Jim dont be doin dat no mo!!! lol


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

I take bites from my patrol dog occassinaly during ob and agility. It is used as a reward (highest value). i do not put pressure or fight him. 

Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

We conduct "ground fighting" exercises with the dog. Handler on the ground, fighting the badguy. I don't want the dog to be any more confused than he already is. I think taking bites is not a good thing. I can't think of a good thing that it could teach a dog that is going to work the streets. Of course I also think it's a bad idea to slip the sleeve, after the basics. Makes it too much of a game. 

DFrost 

DFrost


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## Drew Peirce (Nov 16, 2006)

Glad you made it beth!!!!

I do it with pups mostly but I dont see it as a problem as a play reward with an adult dog if it's done as will described.


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## sam wilks (May 3, 2009)

I think its ok for a young dog. The age that its alright makes a difference. If he is still young and thinking bitework is a game then fine. Once he starts taking it seriously then I would quit. Besides you can always play tug with him. Not to be a smartass but if you have to ask this question then it probably means you dont know enough to be giving any dog a bite without someone more knowledgable around.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I think it takes a GREAT deal of experience as other's have said to do it without creating conflict with you own dog. To easy to put pressure on the dog without realizing it. 
The one and only time I put a sleeve on with my dog the bite was very hesitant. 
I've never allowed biting on me even as a puppy and they whole idea of biting me in a sleeve seemed to go against the early training.


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

I would never take a bite on a sleeve from one of my own dogs. It goes against everything I teach them from day one of being on the man, it is never a game when the sleeve is in the picture.

Playing tug with my dogs is something I do from 8 weeks until ??? On the tug they go through all the motions they will see on the sleeve(pulling, outing and barking cleanly on me), but there is is all kept in play with rules of course. I also use the tug or my leash as my reward item(s). 

A new person can be introduced on the tug, but it is always done as a game for the dog.

When they are ready for the sleeve, the bite work is then brought up to a more powerful level by adding suspicion/conflict into it.


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## Mac McCluskey (May 17, 2007)

some of the most successful ring folks (disclaimer: I don't claim to be one of these!), do there own foundation on there own dog.....no big deal for the truely sport minded....foundations can be built along with drive, in a controlled, productive fashion. of course it's also important to proof the foundation by exposing the dog to new decoys and enviroments as the program develops. I take bites from 4 of our dogs and they will bite any decoy in pretty much the same fashion.


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## Ricardo Ashton (Jun 3, 2010)

No serious PP or PSD trainer will take a hit from their own dog & its for a reason, primarily being that it gives the dog the idea that it's ok to bite the handler/master and it also promotes misdirected aggression in a combat scenario.
Taking bites from your own dog can be done with a pup to develop drive & find its triggers and tolerances,and can even be used as a reward. But the moment the adult dog starts to receive serious work oriented agitation I'd advise you to stop that practice(unless you have a fondness for tetanus shots & stitches)


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Ricardo Ashton said:


> No serious PP or PSD trainer will take a hit from their own dog & its for a reason, primarily being that it gives the dog the idea that it's ok to bite the handler/master and it also promotes misdirected aggression in a combat scenario.
> Taking bites from your own dog can be done with a pup to develop drive & find its triggers and tolerances,and can even be used as a reward. But the moment the adult dog starts to receive serious work oriented agitation I'd advise you to stop that practice(unless you have a fondness for tetanus shots & stitches)


Interesting theory for psd's but do you have any proof. My patrol dog is pretty experienced on the street and with being rewarded by me with a bite and there has been no conflict with his work. The same can be said for all the dogs on my unit. 

Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk


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## Ricardo Ashton (Jun 3, 2010)

Will,a bite on the handler in prey isn't so much an issue since it's seen as play. It's when the dog is given bites when it's in defence/fight drive that causes problems. In what drive do you usually reward your k9's with a bite?


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Ricardo

I think I might of looked too deep into your reply. Of course it is always in prey with no pressure. You do not fight or challenge your own dog (at least I dont) .


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Just like hiding your own dope, for a drug dog handler, I just don't see any real good coming out catching your own dog for any reason. 

DFrost


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

David

Its very different than hiding your own dope. 

A bite for most patrol dogs is the highest reward they can recieve. Here is an example: Teaching a dog any of the USPCA agility course....Your dog, jumps the hurdles but his return to you is slow or non existent. Slip on the sleeve, send him for the jumps, call him back to you and finish. Reward with a bite. Out. Next time he clears the hurdles correctly call him back, do not finish but allow him to the reward running through to the bite. Out and finish. For the clear dog this is not a problem.

If your dog is not clear or wont out, dont do it. 

For healing, put on the sleeve, heel, when the picture is what you want, reward. Out. Continue. It is no different than the tug, ball or food. If it is your dogs highest reward, use it. Again, if you think it is too much for your dog dont.

If you dont feel comfortable doing that use one of the two handle bite wedges it works the same.

There is more than one way to skin a cat...done correctly.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Will said;
"If your dog is not clear or wont out, dont do it."

HUGE factor! 
Even with my no correction sport training I'm to dominant over my dogs for ME to do this effectively. 
Plus it's a ton easier to carry a tug in my pocket rather then a sleeve. :grin::wink:


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## Beth Koenig (Jul 4, 2011)

WOW 30 responses!! that is amazing. THANK YOU for your input! Keep it coming! I really appreciate it.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

will fernandez said:


> David
> 
> Its very different than hiding your own dope.
> 
> ...


Will I agree whole heartadly with you. Except for you its a day to day grind working with a dog. You live with them, You know them and can read them. I'm not sure the OP has that level of experience. JMO


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

will fernandez said:


> David
> 
> Its very different than hiding your own dope.
> 
> ...


We disagree, obviously. I don't use a sleeve to teach a return. I don't use a sleeve to teach heeling. I think there is considerable difference in using a ball/tug/toy to reinforce those behaviors than taking a bite from my own dog.

DFrost


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## Kevin Walsh (Sep 8, 2009)

The "self bite work" is @ 2:07ish...

Luko is 2.5 now. She has no conflict with me. That said, this is all prey. I don't think anyone would ever want to take a bite from their own dog while he/she is in defense.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Kevin Walsh said:


> The "self bite work" is @ 2:07ish...
> 
> Luko is 2.5 now. She has no conflict with me. That said, this is all prey. I don't think anyone would ever want to take a bite from their own dog while he/she is in defense.


blocked for content....not available in the US


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## Kevin Walsh (Sep 8, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> blocked for content....not available in the US


sorry...will fix/repost


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## Kevin Walsh (Sep 8, 2009)

Kevin Walsh said:


> The "self bite work" is @ 2:07ish...
> 
> Luko is 2.5 now. She has no conflict with me. That said, this is all prey. I don't think anyone would ever want to take a bite from their own dog while he/she is in defense.


ok...swapped the audio out...you tube is pretty stupid sometimes...

The "self bite work" is @ 2:07ish...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ia_hDQKQp_A


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

David Frost said:


> We disagree, obviously. I don't use a sleeve to teach a return. I don't use a sleeve to teach heeling. I think there is considerable difference in using a ball/tug/toy to reinforce those behaviors than taking a bite from my own dog.
> 
> DFrost



Disagreements are healthy. I



Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

will fernandez said:


> If your dog is not clear or wont out, dont do it.


IMO this is the key. I have done at least some of the foundation bitework on a number of my dogs. Some of them I continued to work on occasion into adulthood and through their career. Others I did not. There are some I aquired as adults I did some of the bitework myself, and others I have never put on a suit for and probably never will.


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## Beth Koenig (Jul 4, 2011)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> IMO this is the key. I have done at least some of the foundation bitework on a number of my dogs. Some of them I continued to work on occasion into adulthood and through their career. Others I did not. There are some I aquired as adults I did some of the bitework myself, and others I have never put on a suit for and probably never will.


Kadi, I have seen ''IMO'' often on this forum. Sorry, I al brand new maybe IMO is a forum acronym, what does it mean?


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

IMO = In My Opinion


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

I have decoyed my own dog forever. He would never bite me. Im not sure every dog is like that but all of mine have been. 
That being said I no longer handle my dogs. My wife handles and trials them. The reason is the dogs ob went to hell in a hand basket. He was used to biting and for lack of a better word disrespect me. He is cool with me always but just not obiedient enough on the trial field.


I agree if you have to ask this question you probably shouldnt be getting bit. Cuz you dont know your dog well enough.


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## CLINTON CASE (Aug 16, 2010)

will fernandez said:


> David
> 
> Its very different than hiding your own dope.
> 
> ...


But are you outing your own dog when he is on the sleeve bitting you?


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Yes I am....


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## CLINTON CASE (Aug 16, 2010)

will fernandez said:


> Yes I am....


I reckon all to there on training I guess its your dog not mine.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Clinton

I reckon it is


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Ok Clinton

I will bite...what sort of problems do you think I cause for my dog, you reckon?


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## Drew Peirce (Nov 16, 2006)

is that a banjo I hear playin?


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Took bites off every dog I've had but I never put pressure on them. That goes for adults and puppies I've raised. With that said, there are some dogs I've seen as adults and if I bought them I'd probably not give them bites if I handled them. Mostly reactive dogs and dogs that are not social or dogs that get very aggressive while on the bite. Some adults only look at a suit or sleeve as a "fight" depending on their upbringing, and that could be a bad situation!


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## Beth Koenig (Jul 4, 2011)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> IMO = In My Opinion


Ok thank you!


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## CLINTON CASE (Aug 16, 2010)

will fernandez said:


> Ok Clinton
> 
> I will bite...what sort of problems do you think I cause for my dog, you reckon?


The biggest thing being that when your dog is bitting suspect decoy etc they will be able to out your dog off the bite because you are praiseing a dog that is bitting you and then outting the dog off the bite.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

CLINTON CASE said:


> The biggest thing being that when your dog is bitting suspect decoy etc they will be able to out your dog off the bite because you are praiseing a dog that is bitting you and then outting the dog off the bite.


so you think a dog that is actively fighting and relishing hurting a person for real, is gonna out when he says out, just because the handler works him and says out in reward bite for good OB?

In my experience the bite is the highest reward when a dog is fighting, what could a suspect offer him that is better?

I can think of some reasons not to work your own dog in some cases, but that is NOT one of them...


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## CLINTON CASE (Aug 16, 2010)

If he is praiseing the dog for outting witch I dont know if he is but 6 out of 10 times yes you can out the dog


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

No Clinton..the dog will not release for a suspect...I assure you. 

Two very different drives the the dog is working in. During training OB or Agility there are no cues for the dog that he has to be in work mode. 

Maybe you didnt know this but when you work a PSD there are many cues to let your dog know its time for action. Alert tones, siren, the sound of your engine revving, putting on his flat collar and there are many cues for training...the field, the collar, the leash what ever you can reckon.

You work a dog from when he is wee pup to a mature PSD you get to know quite a bit about him and what makes him tick. Try it sometime you might like the results. Dont just go by what folks tell you on this board or the PDB but try some new things from people that know more than you and if works for you use it. If it dont work dont use it. Thats what I do ..it worked for me I reckon.


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## CLINTON CASE (Aug 16, 2010)

will fernandez said:


> No Clinton..the dog will not release for a suspect...I assure you.
> 
> Two very different drives the the dog is working in. During training OB or Agility there are no cues for the dog that he has to be in work mode.
> 
> ...


This may sound like self bloating but its not intended that way the dog I am getting ready for DP Cert is all ready handler hard and extremely hard all together. I get what your saying it works for some dogs some of the time but not all. I did bite work when she was young but thats gone buy the way side now and I don't use a out at any time so it was just a theory and yes dogs know when its real and when its play


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

CLINTON CASE said:


> This may sound like self bloating but its not intended that way the dog I am getting ready for DP Cert is all ready handler hard and extremely hard all together. I get what your saying it works for some dogs some of the time but not all. I did bite work when she was young but thats gone buy the way side now and I don't use a out at any time so it was just a theory and yes dogs know when its real and when its play


any vids of her? we all like seeing extremely hard dogs...


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

[QUOT]Eany vids of her? we all like seeing extremely hard dogs...[/QUOTE]
X2


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## Beth Koenig (Jul 4, 2011)

Daniel Lybbert said:


> [QUOT]Eany vids of her? we all like seeing extremely hard dogs...


X2[/QUOTE]

What is X2?


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## Beth Koenig (Jul 4, 2011)

So it really just sounds to me like the answer is not simple, it depends on the dog, the training, the handler, and the handler's knowledge of their own dog.


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## CLINTON CASE (Aug 16, 2010)

We will not film any of our training for the obvious reasons, I don't need the Humane society beating on the doors of city hall complaining that there deputy's are (being mean to there dogs). But anyone is welcome to come test my dogs for them selfs email me for the address. i don't bloat on my dogs they can talk for them selfs!


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## Drew Peirce (Nov 16, 2006)

amazing, really.......


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Occassionally I will gloat, more often I will dote on but never will I bloat my dogs on purpose. Not bad english for a first gen american, ya reckon


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

come on Clinton.....there are tv shows and tons of police video on the internet...nobody is going to beat down city hall's door about you showing some bitework training. Quite the contrary the tax paying public has the right to see where their hard earned dollars are going. My city loves the demo's usually after they see our dogs in action they usually want to donate to the k9 fund. Makes the city happy cause it goes right into the general fund.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

CLINTON CASE said:


> We will not film any of our training for the obvious reasons, I don't need the Humane society beating on the doors of city hall complaining that there deputy's are (being mean to there dogs). But anyone is welcome to come test my dogs for them selfs email me for the address. i don't bloat on my dogs they can talk for them selfs!


I think a short video can be made, simple. Doesnt have to show anyone beating or being mean to a dog...I doubt the humane society is gonna care if you film an extreme dog in training, unless you are beating the dog, just let the dog beat up on the decoy some...

can you at least share the pedigree on this bitch..so we know where to find more?


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## Tony Hahn (May 28, 2011)

I won’t pretend to be an expert, but I’ll tell you what has worked for me with my dogs. 

I do “take bites” from my own dog, if you want to call it that. In reality, what is actually going on is that the dog is playing a game with me.

It is all play (or some folks would describe it as prey work). It is not, I repeat NOT taking “real” bites from the dog. 

Since it is just another fun activity for the dog there is no conflict. Like other play it actually helps build a good relationship with the dog. Besides relationship building, there are other benefits to the game. Because the dog is just playing, you can introduce stick hits, yelling, direct eye contact, hovering over the dog, etc in a happy, playfull frame of mind. If you keep the dog in a play mode while you hit it with a stick, etc, it can reduce the stress a dog feels when he works with a “real” adversary. 

I’ve done this with two different dogs. Both required some amount of training for them to understand the game. It really isn’t any different from any thing else you teach the dog, be it heeling, retrieves, etc. 

No, I don’t think outing the dog yourself confuses the dog in a “real” situation. From what I’ve seen, it doesn’t cause any more confusion than if the “bad guy” was to yell “stand still!” “foose” “platz” or any other commands the dog is used to you giving. 

Yes, I got tagged a few times while teaching the game, but I’ve gotten tagged a few times teaching other stuff also, so all in all it’s no biggie. 

Works for me, may not for you….your mileage may vary….no warrantees expressed or implied, etc……..


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## Beth Koenig (Jul 4, 2011)

Tony Hahn said:


> I won’t pretend to be an expert, but I’ll tell you what has worked for me with my dogs.
> 
> I do “take bites” from my own dog, if you want to call it that. In reality, what is actually going on is that the dog is playing a game with me.
> 
> ...


I really liked what you wrote and I think iot was very well said. I really do fully agree with you, I think thats what i thought too I just couldnt put it into words. Thank you!


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Beth Koenig said:


> Kadi, I have seen ''IMO'' often on this forum. Sorry, I al brand new maybe IMO is a forum acronym, what does it mean?


n00b. lol.


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