# Decoy Mistakes



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Are there any mistakes your decoy has made that's set you back in training? When would you openly correct them for bad helper work with your dog?


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

I put an e collar on my decoy and buzz them all the time


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Are there any mistakes your decoy has made that's set you back in training? When would you openly correct them for bad helper work with your dog?


Had a decoy do some serious damage to my dog by not doing as told which resulted in me openly correcting him on the field more then once. Whenever a decoy decides to do his own thing and ignores what he has been told is a reason to openly correct. A decoy is told what to do unless told to use his own ideas or input then he should follow the guidelines as set per the handler and not be a smartass thinking he should do whatever he feels like in order to show what a great decoy he might be.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Had a decoy do some serious damage to my dog by not doing as told which resulted in me openly correcting him on the field more then once. Whenever a decoy decides to do his own thing and ignores what he has been told is a reason to openly correct. A decoy is told what to do unless told to use his own ideas or input then he should follow the guidelines as set per the handler and not be a smartass thinking he should do whatever he feels like in order to show what a great decoy he might be.


This is exactly how I feel about it, which is why I am having trouble finding a good decoy. How hard is it to follow simple instructions?


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

That's how I feel as well. Haven't had to deal with a decoy do whatever they want in conflict with what I asked for.


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

I have a hard time with handler mistakes too! lol We all make mistakes. Its the reason the mistakes are being made that is the problem. Everyone needs to look at it as a team. The dog is the champ and we are helping him get ready for the match. We all need to be on the same page and for the best intrest of the dog. If you have a team like that there should be no need to worry.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Correct.............


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## Tim Lynam (Jun 12, 2009)

There will always be a shortage of decoys because of this topic. Even if a decoy does exactly as a handler says, if the results are not exactly as the handler thinks they should be, it's usually the decoys fault. I've dealt with more flaming ego handlers than decoys. Handlers that think instructions are as simple as "paint the wall white." Handlers that think they know everything going on with the dog by looking at it's ass hole.

If you want a drone to work your dog and be berated in public, PAY them.

If you want a team member, take the time to explain in detail not only what the short term goal is but what the long term progression will be. Be respectful. I'm sure that when you help them "buy in" to what is to transpire, you'll get their full respect and cooperation.

I for one would walk away from a handler like Alice. Who needs that bullshit. Can't find a good decoy? Word gets around. \\/


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

I had a judge once tell me " its ring 3 so make an esquive and keep them off the bite for 5-6 seconds" Really? How about I just try the esquive first and make the seconds if I can after the esquive. Its the same for a handler too. "Ok we need to do this and this. OH ok why didnt you get it done already if that's what you wanted."
I saw a couple of vids on facebook they are flaming a couple of decoys. Granted the work wasn't completely right but the bigger problem was the dog wasn't that strong. And the handler is bitching. How about the decoy bitching cuz they sent a shitty dog that made him look bad? 
You need a good team. Not a handler instructing a decoy. If you don't like your decoy don't train,or trial with him. He will probably appreciate it. He is there for you and your dog. Not for the exercise.


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## Jeremy Friedman (May 5, 2013)

Handlers need to realize they don't see what the decoy see's. As others have said, it needs to be a team effort. Tell me what you're trying to accomplish and I will do everything I can to achieve that goal, using the methods that work best for me to get that result. Just because you step on a training field with a plan doesn't mean the dog is on the same schedule. It may need something completely different.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Tim Lynam said:


> There will always be a shortage of decoys because of this topic. Even if a decoy does exactly as a handler says, if the results are not exactly as the handler thinks they should be, it's usually the decoys fault. I've dealt with more flaming ego handlers than decoys. Handlers that think instructions are as simple as "paint the wall white." Handlers that think they know everything going on with the dog by looking at it's ass hole.
> 
> If you want a drone to work your dog and be berated in public, PAY them.
> 
> ...


Okay... That made me laugh!

Its not about being a good decoy but about being a smartass know it all decoy. We have plenty of excellent decoys that we work with, we also have the decoys that always know better and despite of what you ask of them they will do the exact opposite. Why? Because they felt they knew better in that moment. Here's the thing tho... I know what and who my dog is. I know what I want and do not want to happen. I do not fall to my knees and pray to the almighty decoy if he is acting like a ****wit on the field... I tell him to get his ****ing act together or get out of the suit! Why do I tell a decoy that? Because having one dog with a broken ribs and one that got permanent neck damage is a very pricy thing indeed and its not something I would like to experiance again... 

You can sit and judge me for yelling at a decoy who did not do as told orrrrrr you can maybe use your head and think to yourself that there are 2 sides to a story. A decoy should do as told and not as he feels. he is working YOUR property and is not on the field to grandstand for the people who are watching his decoy work. He is there to HELP the dog and not to make himself look good and fierce...

Tell me this, Tim? What would you do if you saw your dog bounce of off the decoy because he decided to test your dog for the **** off it? And when you went to pick up your dog you see it crawling away from you because it can't ****ing walk and can't get his neck straight no more? I bet you would walk over to the decoy and shake his hand, right? Thank him for the job well done, pat him on the ****ing back and then proceed to the car with your dog in your arms and take him to the vet to get him checked out, Xrayed, and find there is damage to the neck which is probably never going to repair itself or be able to be repaired... So you leave your dog there for 8 days until the swelling has subsided and do a shitload more Xrays and all the fun things that go with visiting the vets, and you wait for results of the xrays to come back from Utrecht and they tell you "Well, tough luck! He aint ever working again. Best might be to put him to sleep now please pay us!" Kaching!!!!!!! 4300 Euro vets bill, no more dog since he had to be put to sleep but hey! Lets not blame the ****ing decoy right? I bet you go straight back to your club and buy the ****ing idiot a beer! He deserves it right? 

Yeah you're right Timmy boy... Keep them decoys away from me because I am bad news all around. **** up my dog and I will take a piece out of you on the field with everyone watching and guess what... I don't care what people think after that or if the want to decoy for me in future or not (funny enough I have plenty of decoys running to work for me so I must do sommat right huh?) You do not play games with MY dog on the field, you do not **** UP with MY dog on the field. I say what goes and you should listen! You are not called a HELPER for no reason.... You are there to help the dogs and any grandstanding will NOT be tolerated.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Having been on both sides of this discussion I can say I do what the handler wants, as long as it's safe. If I see something is not working or I think something else will work better I speak up, it's up to the handler then. At the end of the day it's the handlers dog, the finished dog is their choice, I would prefer they ended up with a mediocre dog than a broken one.
One of my problems with some decoys is that they are of the mind that if the dog can't handle the decoys maximum pressure at the beginning the dog never will and is a wash out there and then. Waste of a potentially good dog. Also some decoys are shit, end of.


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

A very big difference between an experienced handler and one that needs to be told what to do,same goes for a decoy.
While the dog is in training the first rule for the decoy is not to harm the dog in any way.
Another big thing is communication between the handler and helper,if you need to say something during training it is usually to late.
A beginning handler should be able to trust an experienced helper and an beginning helper should always work supervised.
Look for what a dog needs in stead of trying for what he can take.
Big difference also what sport you are doing,if a decoy in KNPV steps aside when the dog attacks he may be lynched by other club members.
Even a very good dog can be really damaged or even ruined by a decoy with a bad additude.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

jack van strien said:


> A very big difference between an experienced handler and one that needs to be told what to do,same goes for a decoy.
> *While the dog is in training the first rule for the decoy is not to harm the dog in any way.*
> Another big thing is communication between the handler and helper,if you need to say something during training it is usually to late.
> A beginning handler should be able to trust an experienced helper and an beginning helper should always work supervised.
> ...


Jack this is SO REFRESHING!

This is the foremost part of what ANY helper/decoy should be doing! Do no harm to the dogs and test them all with the same degree of effectiveness.
Game plans must adapt to fit many areas of training. Sometimes helpers get in a "fix" and need to be reminded NOT to do this or DO that.
Last point, while many handlers can handle a dog, most can never be good decoys. It takes a real skill and GREAT acting to bring out the best in all dogs. Weak dogs can be MADE to look good but when the rubber hits the road, you still have a sh%ter!! Let the decoy do their job and don't create new issues with the dogs, HANDLERS be a post and take direction the FIRST TIME GIVEN. :twisted:


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Okay... That made me laugh!
> 
> Its not about being a good decoy but about being a smartass know it all decoy. We have plenty of excellent decoys that we work with, we also have the decoys that always know better and despite of what you ask of them they will do the exact opposite. Why? Because they felt they knew better in that moment. Here's the thing tho... I know what and who my dog is. I know what I want and do not want to happen. I do not fall to my knees and pray to the almighty decoy if he is acting like a ****wit on the field... I tell him to get his ****ing act together or get out of the suit! Why do I tell a decoy that? Because having one dog with a broken ribs and one that got permanent neck damage is a very pricy thing indeed and its not something I would like to experiance again...
> 
> ...


Hootsmon, you are quite some lassie and I agree with you wholeheartedly.


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

I went to a friends house one time and decoyed his up and coming dog. He decoyed him in the begining. Then he had a friend that moved very similar to him decoy him. He tried to change the decoy not the moves or rules. Then I decoyed the dog next(weeks later). Same rules similar moves new guy. This made the dog better. But the Handler was smart he worked on similar people with the same rules. If you want to send your dog on a new decoy put him in a trial. The decoys are under strict rules and cant do what they want. There are judges who keep them in line. They see a new decoy with the same rules as they are allowed. Your own personal training decoy can take the dog to the next level. If you are sending your dog on a dummy that is your fault as a handler. I personally have let a decoy wreck my dog. It was stupidity on my part more than his part. If you are wanking about a decoy why did you put yourself and dog in the situation in the first place. Lets put responsibility where it is supposed to be.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

In a perfect world that would be true Daniel but sadly enough the world is not perfect and some decoys and helpers will do unexpected things and we.do not always have the luxury of knowing the decoy when they visit the club. Its easy to say that one should stick to the same sort and type of decoy but how would one get to know the decoy if one did not have him decoy to begin with. We train dogs on many decoys to build.up the dog but you can not always protect your dog from the decoy if he is in a mind to do his own thing.


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## Jeremy Friedman (May 5, 2013)

I don't think anyone is out there to hurt the dogs. One thing to remember is these are very physical contact sports. Just like with any other contact sport, injuries happen. If people are unwilling to accept that then they shouldn't play the game. If the same handlers/dogs keep having issues with multiple decoys, at what point do we ask "what's the real issue".


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Or if organizations continue to use poor decoys, ones that seem to always step on feet, roll the bite sleeve to create a bad bite, use flying catches or jam the dog...then the issue could be with that venue!


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## Sander Meegdes (Aug 26, 2013)

The dog will get as good as the decoy is.

A good decoy will make a world of change.

If you proper assist the decoy and give tips of getting better instead of correcting him
a decoy will get better.

I am a decoy for 5 years now, Always a "club" decoy and building dogs
and will go this year for the KNPV decoy certification, That includes performing and testing
dogs on trials and KNPV examinations if they are a true police dog.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

For the sake of discussion, what is the feeling towards *FLYING CATCHES*, slinging the dog at the entry point on the sleeve?

I see no good from it and it should very seldom be done. Not giving the dog some "cushion" with the take up of energy into the sleeve is even more troubling.:-?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I think the momentum of the dog can carry the dog into a spin but beyond doing a half turn and setting the dog down I think all the spinning and helicoptering the dog on the sleeve is show boating.


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## Jeremy Friedman (May 5, 2013)

Howard Gaines III said:


> For the sake of discussion, what is the feeling towards *FLYING CATCHES*, slinging the dog at the entry point on the sleeve?
> 
> I see no good from it and it should very seldom be done. Not giving the dog some "cushion" with the take up of energy into the sleeve is even more troubling.:-?




I hate them! I think they cause more harm than good. Just look at pictures of flying catches. The dog is usually twisted every which way. That can't be good on the spine.


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## Chip Blasiole (Jun 7, 2006)

My opinion is that the decoy needs to teach the dog to make a forward entry. This can be done in a variety of creative ways. The dog can jump over an obstable, the prey always moves away from the dog, or the better decoys can suck the dog into the bite by jumping up and back. That requires youth, athleticism and thought. The most basic decoy mistake is to feed the dog the prey object. A really good decoy, whether for sport or police work, will suck the dog up into the sleeve or suit in the early stages of training. This might change depending on the sport and the ultimate goal. I hate to see rookies putting the prey object into the mouth of the dog.


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

With green helpers it happens all the time. That is part of the process of learning for helpers. With the very experienced helpers it almost never happens. For me the most common mistake is with green helpers who don't have a feel for the dog, and don't know when to stop the fight, submit and let the dog win. Of course there are many other instances where they can screw things up, but that is what I see the most. 

The Schutzhund sleeve is a very artificial thing. A person with a live bite would never react the way a helper might with all that protection. If the helper does not have the correct feel and sensibility that only good mentoring and a lot of experience can bring they create fight where you don't want fight. With my Dobermann it does not take much for her to start to fiight the helper when she should be settling into a prey bite, and pulling. this creates shaking on the sleeve. If I work too many times on a green helper, then I have to have fix things. However, it is nice to have a number of good helpers and they can only get there through practices. I can remember a time when we did not have many (and sometimes no) available helpers. We have 6 at the club now and I am grateful for everyone of them, even the green ones.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

I always does what the handler tels me to, if its stupid I trye to make them do it a nother way. But if the want the stupid way I Will do that to "if its not dangerus for the dog"

But sometimes we misunderstand, if you bitch and mone and makes it a big deal go train your own F-ing dog. 
And yes it can be hard to understand and remenber 10 difrent moves and 10 difrent habdlers with 15 difrent dogs. 

Some how some handlers think its somthing amasing to train ther dogs.
Wake up cal! Thers atleast 50 dogs on every decoy so its not dificult to get dogs to bite you  even realy crapy decoys gets dogs to train.
Do some tracking ore somthing if you are going to be rude, no one Will miss you ore your dog.


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Jeremy Friedman said:


> Handlers need to realize they don't see what the decoy see's. As others have said, it needs to be a team effort. Tell me what you're trying to accomplish and I will do everything I can to achieve that goal, using the methods that work best for me to get that result. Just because you step on a training field with a plan doesn't mean the dog is on the same schedule. It may need something completely different.


Bingo! World of difference between looking at the ass end of a dog and the business end.


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Bob Scott said:


> I think the momentum of the dog can carry the dog into a spin but beyond doing a half turn and setting the dog down I think all the spinning and helicoptering the dog on the sleeve is show boating.


Yep...one of the more dramatic decoys(for lack of a better description) on a National level was notorious for that helicopter shit.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Keith Jenkins said:


> Bingo! World of difference between looking at the ass end of a dog and the business end.


 Very well said!


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