# Blue Collar dog special question?????



## Laney Rein (Feb 9, 2011)

Having mostly been familiar with watching sch dogs working and thus it being a sport and having a point system, dogs are trained to OUT from a bite on command and are marked accordingly for either not releasing immediately, chewing on the sleeve and the ultimate - not outing. On the recent Blue Collar dogs segment on the NY police dogs, I am wondering specifically from Police K9 officers and trainers, why in each of the bite example scenarios, even that dual purpose black shephard, why they required being CHOKED off the sleeve? Is this how they are trained, are they trained to do that specifically, is there a reason behind it. I am aware that Police K9s are more defense say then prey in nature - where in Sch I believe a higher prey drive dog is preferred, but maybe I have no idea what I am talking about. Would appreciate insight into this by someone that knows much more than I (which in all honesty is not much in defensive sports or training).


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## Pete Stevens (Dec 16, 2010)

Everyone, every trainer, every agency has their own idea of what makes a good police dog. I've seen both ends of the spectrum of all drives and all sorts in between. So to say that law enforcement wants a dog with a high defense drive isn't completely accurate. Most of us want a well balanced dog but that all depends on what that person, trainer, or agencies idea of what a balanced dog is. 

I have never trained with the NY guys so anything would be pure speculation about their guidelines or certification process. They may not verbally call off their dogs when they take them off the bite. We only saw a small portion of what they were doing. But I can say that we , and the agencies in my area, train for a verbal out and our dogs will do it. And I think most of the LE dogs will too.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I can't speak for other programs. I will say; every recognized police canine certification organization requires an out. While I do believe there are times when the tactical out, or whatever folks call it is necessary, I also believe a dog should be able to be called out under ordinary circumstances. Whatever those may be. One factor that must be considered, when you put a dog that likes to fight, in a fight, they don't always react the way they do in training.

DFrost


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

I agree with Pete that you can't really generalize Police K9 training in the United States . There is no nation wide standard for police k9 training . Having trained around the country Police K9 units vary greatly . 

I didn't see the show and don't know anything about New York's training . I can tell you almost the entire state of Minnesota certifies it's PSDs through the USPCA . They require a verbal "out" to certify .

http://www.uspcak9.com/certification/USPCARulebook2011.pdf

Having not seen the show did they grab the collar and actually choke the dog off the bite or did they grab the collar and verbally out the dog ?


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

now Im no LEO but I will say this, there is a huge difference between a dog that has just been certified and sold into LE and a dog actualy working LE for a longer amount of time...the certification has nothing more to do with the LEO then the fact that its required to do these things in order to get the certification and the desired amount of points...it has absolutly nothing to do with everyday LE work for that dog....the dog has been trained to follow a certain program and thats it...he will do as required at specific points in time after commands are issued BUT training for a certification and working LE is a big big difference.

I can say that with the dogs I have sold over the years to LE that the dog I delivered and the dog I saw a jear later were 2 completely different things. the things we trained them to do are not always what is needed and what is needed isnt always trained into the dog..so yes I can understand the choke on the dog in that particular circumstance...the dog isnt following a program anymore and the rules are not being strictly enforced anymore in the same way as it was in training. 

trained dog versus actual LE dog = not the same thing.


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## Gina Pasieka (Apr 25, 2010)

I know someone on the force and we had this conversation before. NYPD does not train the out. The concern would be that the perp would yell something like Owwww...it would sound to much like AUS...so the dog would come off. Instead they are all choked off the bite.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

NYPD trains the OUT. They certify through USPCA.


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## Pete Stevens (Dec 16, 2010)

I can't think of an organization or State that doesn't require a verbal out but don't know all of the rules everywhere. I've said it before, I take a titled dog and f%*k it all for police work. No sport such as Schutzhund, Ring, KNPV, etc....teach a dog to go jump into car window and grab a bad guy. We can use he basics learned in sport as a foundation tool to do building searches or whatever else we need to do. I have seen and trained in taking a dog off the bite by choking him off in basic training because we have time to train the verbal out before they certify for the street. I'm sure NYPD has their reasons, I just don't know what they are.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Laney Rein said:


> Having mostly been familiar with watching sch dogs working and thus it being a sport and having a point system, dogs are trained to OUT from a bite on command and are marked accordingly for either not releasing immediately, chewing on the sleeve and the ultimate - not outing. On the recent Blue Collar dogs segment on the NY police dogs, I am wondering specifically from Police K9 officers and trainers, why in each of the bite example scenarios, even that dual purpose black shephard, *why they required being CHOKED off the sleeve?* Is this how they are trained, are they trained to do that specifically, is there a reason behind it. I am aware that Police K9s are more defense say then prey in nature - where in Sch I believe a higher prey drive dog is preferred, but maybe I have no idea what I am talking about. Would appreciate insight into this by someone that knows much more than I (which in all honesty is not much in defensive sports or training).


First question is this, Are you sure that the dogs were REQUIRED to be CHOKED off of the bite?

Is it POSSIBLE that they decided for the training that day to choke the dogs off of the bite, and that the dogs did not HAVE to be choked off? 

Choking the dog off of a bite is often used to frustrate dog and make him fight and bite harder...

Many trainers of Police dogs only use the out for dogs in training a % of the bites. Some use the out less than 50% of the time.

I did not see the show, were they telling the dogs to out, and they refused to comply? Or were they just choking them off.

If you are wondering about this, why not try to email or call the department that was on the show, and ask them...

No one here was on the show I am guessing.

If they answered you, you could then share the reasons with the rest of the members here...


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## Laney Rein (Feb 9, 2011)

Jim Nash said:


> I agree with Pete that you can't really generalize Police K9 training in the United States . There is no nation wide standard for police k9 training . Having trained around the country Police K9 units vary greatly .
> 
> I didn't see the show and don't know anything about New York's training . I can tell you almost the entire state of Minnesota certifies it's PSDs through the USPCA . They require a verbal "out" to certify .
> 
> ...


 
They actually hung the dog up in the air with the choke ring until the dog had to let go to get air. As I stated, I am very niave in police work is reason I'm asking the question. They showed 3 or 4 of their different dogs in training situations and each time they went to extract the dog, the same response was used. So maybe just their method. They did make the comment that their dogs had to be highly social because they work so closely with and in the public (ie: subways) which a lot of people on another site says is not desired in police dogs. So much conflicting info?????????


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## Laney Rein (Feb 9, 2011)

and. NO, you never heard an OUT or AUS word on the show. I guess there are too many variables to answer, was asking in generalities, not these specific dogs and handlers. Was asking if in LE if this was a standard. No, I'm not a tree hugger and opposed to using a correction when called for, just asking if this was common or uncommon due to the drive and different requirements for Police dogs.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Social dogs that out are the norm

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk


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## Anne Jones (Mar 27, 2006)

I also noticed that the black shepherd on that show was wearing an e-collar. (You could see the green light flashing on the black collar brick.) 

Is that a normal piece of equipment on a PSD? Or just something that NYPD does? I never noticed it on other shows showing PSDs. Maybe I just didn't notice it.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

On my dept and the others I train with, the choice is left to us if we want to use it. Dont know what other dept do.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Laney Rein said:


> and. NO, you never heard an OUT or AUS word on the show. I guess there are too many variables to answer, was asking in generalities, not these specific dogs and handlers. Was asking if in LE if this was a standard. No, I'm not a tree hugger and opposed to using a correction when called for, just asking if this was common or uncommon due to the drive and different requirements for Police dogs.


Laney. I have small amount experience with PSD. 

Every PSD I have seen in training in my limited experience has been trained to have a verbal out, except cell extraction dogs in one prison I have seen.

This does not mean that the verbal out is used on every bite throughout the dog's training. 

There are 3 ways that they end a bite in my mind (maybe more) give the dog the equipment, out the dog, or have decoy (usually go to ground) give up and choke the dog off.

In beginning training, with the people I have been involved with, all 3 endings are used, as the dog gets better and more mature in the work, the slipping of equipment is phased out.

Mature dogs that are confident in the work are then either outed, or choked off the bite, randomly throughout the training sessions.

Some people I have seen use the choke off method more than 50% of the time with the dogs, not because the dogs NEED to be choked off, but because the trainers WANT to choke the dogs off, because it makes them more determined to keep the bite.

Even with the dogs that were choked off more often than not, the dogs did comply to the verbal OUT command when it was given.

It is possible that the footage was just taken when they were choking dogs off, it is also possible that they just wanted the choke-offs on the show too, to make the dogs appear tougher for the cameras...

I hope this helps explain what I have seen, I cannot make it any simpler than this explanation in my experience.


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## Anne Jones (Mar 27, 2006)

Thanks for the answer, Will.


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## Laney Rein (Feb 9, 2011)

Joby - even tho, as you say, you have little exp with PSDs you gave a very clear way to understand. I also, can understand why they would want to show how determined that dog was to hang onto the "criminal" to deter people. Only problem with NGW is you have the people who would not understand that sometimes this type of correction may be needed.

Where I go, to watch and learn, the handlers are taught to have the sleeve as a reward and then they slowly calm the dog down, telling them how good they are, and never try to grab the sleeve from the dog. Eventually the dog releases the sleeve which then the word out is worked into the transition. But......I, too, have NO PSD experience.

I appreciate the time everyone has taken to discuss this for me. Learn something new every day!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Laney Rein said:


> Only problem with NGW is you have the people who would not understand *that sometimes this type of correction may be needed.!*


A couple more points for you...It is NOT a correction. 

It is a way to remove a dog forcibly from a bite. The dog fights the physical effort to remove him, but eventually has to let go becuase he cannot breathe. 

He is not given the out command, and is not being corrected or punished for not outing, because he has not been told to out. He fights the removal as long as he can, and eventually loses, which frustrates the hell out of him, and makes him more determined the next time.

Also, the topic you raised about the choking dogs off, has absolutely nothing to do with prey or defense, or how social a dog is or isn't...(simply put)


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## Laney Rein (Feb 9, 2011)

my mistake, thanks for clarifying


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## Adi Ibrahimbegovic (Nov 21, 2008)

here is your video: 
http://video.nationalgeographic.com...lue-collar-dogs/ngc-canine-subway-police.html


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Laney Rein said:


> They showed 3 or 4 of their different dogs in training situations and each time they went to extract the dog, the same response was used.


It sounds like this was televised? I wonder what the possibility would be that they did it that way to purposely not reveal another, fairly viable way to get the dog to release off the bite? Surely, there are other reasons this may have been done but the thought did strike me that perhaps they did so to protect their own interests. In other words, if the release command is revealed - who might have interest in using it besides the officer/handler? Most likely the person on the receiving end. Who knows, maybe it just came down it being their preferred technique.


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## Dwyras Brown (Nov 21, 2008)

There could have been many scenerios where the dog was verbally outed, but the show edited them out. Its usually done, because people notice that the handler appears to have to fight the dog off. What looks more intimidating to you, Laney? Although the show is supposed to educate the public, there also has to be some hype there to keep them watching.


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