# Teaching an "older" dog the out?



## Stacia Porter (Apr 8, 2006)

I've seen discssion here a few times about how to teach an older dog to out (or how to work with a dog who won't out). 

If I'm understanding these scenarios, it's usually a dog acquired after puppyhood who is being trained as a k-9 or PPD. 

So what are the usual methods for teaching the out to an adult dog?

FWIW, I taught Achilles as a puppy (9 weeks old) by telling him to out, taking the object I wanted out of his mouth, and immediately replacing it with a chew toy. It wasn't long (maybe 3 or 4 days) before giving the out command resulted in him immediately spitting out whatever was in his mouth. We transferred that to the ball on teh string a few days later and have never once had an issue with him outing the sleeve or a retrieved object.

I've had Andi (who is about 2 years old) 6 weeks and she already knows the out. I taught her the same way I taught Achilles (tell her to out, take the object, and immediately give a chew toy). She's not good for bitework so I haven't done this with a sleeve, but she will out a rag tug if told.

I'm assuming this method doesn't work with most dogs?


----------



## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Our program does not buy puppies. While I wish I had the luxury of being able to teach "out" with a pup and let it develop, that's just not going to happen. With a completely green dog, during the obediance phase, the handler will introduce the out during play time with a tug. Teaching out during play often translates to the bite. Not always, but when the wind blows right, the moon is full and all goes well the transition is pretty smooth.

DFrost


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Our club uses no compulsion for teaching. We've had a couple of older dogs come with serious out problems. It's just a matter of waiting the dog out, then give a rebite as a reward. They DO get it!


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Same way as Bob does. Wait for outing, while spitting it out say out and a rebite or toy as reward...they get it very quick...


----------



## Stacia Porter (Apr 8, 2006)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Same way as Bob does. Wait for outing, while spitting it out say out and a rebite or toy as reward...they get it very quick...


Thanks David, Bob, and Selena. It has been my experience that they learn the out pretty quickly, too. I was able eto teach a stranger's puppy in the parking lot of my car dealership in a matter of hours LOL. I gave her a ball, told her aus, waited for her to spit it, when she did I said good aus and put a rawhide in her mouth, let her chew on it, then told her to out the rawhide, when she did I replaced it with the ball. By the time her owner left with her a few hours later she was outting at least 75% of the time on command LOL. He was pretty amazed.

So what, in your opinions, makes it harder for some dogs to learn this than others? Is it just that these dogs want to bite so resent having to release?


----------



## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Our club uses no compulsion for teaching. We've had a couple of older dogs come with serious out problems. It's just a matter of waiting the dog out, then give a rebite as a reward. They DO get it!


So do you give the out command and then just stand there and wait until the dog lets go? Do you repeat the command at all? Explain please!  

I haven't tried to teach Jak to out yet, mainly because he doesn't always bring his toy back to us; usually he gets it and runs around the yard with it :roll:


----------



## Stacia Porter (Apr 8, 2006)

Kristen Cabe said:


> Bob Scott said:
> 
> 
> > Our club uses no compulsion for teaching. We've had a couple of older dogs come with serious out problems. It's just a matter of waiting the dog out, then give a rebite as a reward. They DO get it!
> ...


I used a treat or favorite toy (two of them) so I hold up the 2nd object and say AUS, then wait for the dog to let go of the first, and shove the 2nd in his mouth saying, GOOD AUS! I do this back and forth. You'd definitely have to use things that Jak is willing to trade for LOL. I don't see it working very well with his tire, for instance :wink: . Does he still have a high food drive? You might be able to trade a toy for a piece of hot dog and teach him that way first.

When Achilles was younger and we were training it (like 12 weeks old), I did take the object from his mouth and replace it with a chew toy. He usually had his teeth on no-no items, though LOL. I never took a chew toy from his mouth (didn't want him to think he coudln't use them). It didn't take him long to understand what aus meant, probably a few days and then he was consistent in a couple of weeks.

I walk through the house making the dogs out things all day long. Achilles only gets praise for it, Andi gets an all over petting (this is her "treat"). I find they're both pretty consistent with it, and Achilles has always outted the sleeve for us (and toys during retrieves). IN fact, I just made him out his favorite bone in mid chew LOL. I swear that dog's gonna plot icky things against me one of these days.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Repeating the command depends on the dog. If the dog has serious issues, sometimes repeating the command will just make them set their heels again, so to speak. 
The older dogs I've seen that refuse the out have eithr been badly trianed, or the dog may be one of those that just fights any physical correction. 
The worst dog I've seen had bee shocked, pinched, choked out, hit with a leather fist, you name it. It was a total war with him. When he came to our club, our TD stood their for 15-20 mins the first time. When the dog finally let go, he was immediately given a rebite. Next time it only took 5 mins. It was almost a week with daily training before the dog was clear. 
Unfortunately, a year later the handler had to retire from Schutzhund because of work injury. The dog was sold to a national level helper/trainer, who got heavy handed with the dog again. Although the dog outed, he kept rebiting and they blew the nationals.


----------



## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

So in other words, you say the command and then just stand still until the dog outs. Would that work for teaching the command from the beginning, too? If the dog starts tugging, do you go with the dog or stand rigid? I'm SO interested in how you can do this type of training with no compulsion! I think Jak is going to be one of those hard to correct dogs because the few times I _have_ given him a collar correction, it's gotten no response out of him. He just cocks his head and looks at me like, "WhAaat?"


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

From the beginning, with a young dog you have to find what makes them tick. Out for food, out for toy, whatever. The Presa pup I'm working with is young for compulsion and little food drive, but she LOVES to bite. I started by showing he another rag. Once she got the idea, I don't bring the rag out UNTIL she outs the first one. That keeps the second rag from becoming a bribe. 
Same thing with treats, toys, etc. If you still can't get the out, then your probably bribing instead of rewarding the dog. 
I also don't make eye contact when I'm giving the out. I want him to know I'm disinterested in the game for now. 
You defiantely have to lock up. If you go with the dog, your just teaching it that he's winning and he'll keep pulling. 
I have no problem with compulsion trainers because I did it forever. If your dog is just giving you a "WhAaat" look, it could be the correction isn't at the best level.


----------



## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

> If your dog is just giving you a "WhAaat" look, it could be the correction isn't at the best level.


I agree, but at the time, I didn't feel comfortable giving any harder a correction - I tend to be a little bit heavy handed anyway. Now that he's a year old, it's probably okay, but because we haven't been able to do much in the way of bitework yet (hopefully that will change soon, if the guy that runs the training facility that the Spartanburg area ASR club trains at will ever call or e-mail me back with directions), I'm still kind of hesitant to do physical corrections. He IS starting to push buttons, though, with sits and downs especially.

It's hard to do the trading thing with him because he doesn't take things gently - he just chomps down and if your hand is in the way, oh well! :lol:


----------



## Chip Blasiole (Jun 7, 2006)

You can use an obedience tug for this. I like a tug with handles on both ends. The approach is basically what Ivan B. promotes in his videos. You tease the dog up giving him some misses. Then when he is really in drive, tell him to sit or platz. If he is getting things, he will quickly sit or platz. About a second after he sits release him and give him a bite on the tug. The release should probably be your command for bite, such as packen. Play with him roughly for a few seconds by pulling up on the tug and moving around with the dog. Then stop and lock up by pinning the tug along your thigh and give the out command. Don't move and be patient and wait for the dog to get bored. He will eventually out. You can also move your hands in toward his mouth some and this might help. When he outs, praise him with "good aus" and quickly move the tug to make prey and let him get a bite, which is his reward for outing. Then you can get him to out again, praise, make prey, give him a few misses and give a sit or platz again. This way, you are training the sit, platz and out. I would keep these session very short. If you do it correctly, it will get you out of breath quickly. As he gets better at this game, you should see him outing better.


----------



## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Should this be done with him tied, or does it matter? I don't really have anywhere I can tie him in the yard.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I pretty much agree with the Balabanov (Ivan B) method. The dog doesn't have to be back tied. 
Don't use your release command to reward him. I give the marker, wait a second, then put the tug back into prey movemen't. 
The chomping down on trades or treats is nothing more then bad manners and/or poor targeting.That should worked on completely separate from training the out.


----------



## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Important as Chip said, Before you give the out command make sure the tug is completly still. At this time he has killed it and it is dead. When he outs tell him good and let him reward himself with another bite when it comes back alive. Do this over and over.

You can do the same with ,Sit and platz. Prey drive, prey drive, prey drive.
Ivan's tape, "Clear Communications" is very very good. Remember to tell the dog when he is correct, good.


----------

