# Truth - Do with it as you wish



## Shane Woodlief (Sep 9, 2009)

Truth - do what you want with it.

Definition - "*Truth** - a verified or indisputable fact, proposition, principle, or the like"*

Last year I bought a puppy from Mike Suttle @ Logan Haus. The litter I had chosen to get a pup out of was the Carlos/Dunya litter. In August I was sent a mal puppy (photo attached). When I got the dog he was not at all what I expected. Here is the summery of conversation with Mike over the following months:

1. Picked him up in Seattle and no health certificate or paper work.
2. He came sick and took 14 days of meds to clear him up.
3. He only had one testicle descended.
4. I raised with Mike that he was not working out despite all of the above but also because he was a nerve bag and that I was going to re-home him, and had a local family lined up that wanted him.
5. Mike offered me a new pup only if I paid and shipped him back and then I pay yet again to bring out the new replacement pup. The quality pup that Mike should have sent me in the first place.
6. I sent Mike a detailed message/expense report on why I thought that was unfair due to the cost of me getting off the island to get the knew pup. Knowing full well that other breeders very reputable ones will try to work with a person if they sent them crap and he did send me crap.
7. I re-homed the dog - testicle still not descended - out $1,200 for the pup - $300 for the shipping - 2 International Ferries, Customs and Vet Expenses and still no dog to show for it.

Anyway I chalked it up to a loss and considered dropping out of the dog game all together as I was tired of all the BS from breeders whose mouths were better than what they produce. I had not thought of the the dog until a couple of months ago when I was contacted by Chris Race about my Carlos/Dunya (aka Brook) pup. He informed me that he had bought Dunya. I was honest with him that the pup was the worst dog I have ever seen or owned. 

Like most of you, I saw on the forum a post by Ron Gnodde where he talked about Mike's changing Dunya's name to Brook and forging a false pedigree (of which Mike admitted that he did) and selling her. You can search the thread out for yourself. Ron and I talked and I shared with him what I thought of my piece of crap Dunya pup. After Ron and my conversation he had a friend of his named Josh Muller contact me. Josh asked to see a picture of my pup and after that over a period of weeks I was able to confirm/verify an undeniable truth:
The pup that was sent to me *was not a Carlos/Dunya pup!* *In fact Mike did not even breed the dog that was sent to me.* The dog was breed by Stephan his helper and it was a french line of malinois. The entire litter was rumored to be total crap (confirmed by multiple sources) and by Mike himself to me.

Upon finding out this information I contacted Mike by email I did not air it on a forum. I contacted him directly and said that I would like to work this out together and not have to go the route that I am now taking. He asked me to send a picture of the pup which I did (which is the picture I have attached). At that time Mike did confirm that in fact the pup was not a Carlos/Dunya pup and that it was one of the french mals. He at that time told me how he thought the pup came to be in my possession and apologized and offered to make it right. I took him up on his offer. He has offered me a pup out of Arko/Reza or Borris/Noa or Carlos/Trujie. He was not sure if Trujie took as she did not last time with Carlos but he said that he had collected Carlos I think 5 times for future litters that I could choose one of those as well. I have taken him up on his offer.

Here are the 2 versions of what I have been told has happened and how the pup ended up in my possession.

1. Mike took a pup out of the french malinois litter and put it with the Dunya litter and videoed it in the litter and passed the dog off as a Carlos/Dunya pup and sent that pup to me.

2. Mike said that he had picked out a mal for me out of the Carlos/Dunya litter and that Ron (an employee of Mike's at the time) had taken the pup that was meant for me and replaced it with the french line pup and took my would be pup for himself. Since Mike's wife was the one who took the pup to the airport for shipping she would have not know the difference with what was being shipped to me.

Here is the truth: Mike has continued to lie to me even as late as last night about how the dog ended up in my possesion which has prompted this thread. I have been searching and digging for evidence to either prove him wrong or right. I have found my proof on my old laptop. I have an email sent to me on 08/08/10 @ 9:48 am. This is a picture of Stephan doing rag work with the pup that Mike has sent me. 

On 2010-08-08, at 9:48 AM, Mike Suttle wrote:

> This is the Mali puppy that I have picked out for you. He is a nice puppy.
>
> -- 
> Thank you,
> Mike Suttle
> www.loganhauskennels.com
> 304-661-5758

Here you have it in his own words. I have attached other pictures as well so that you can see them.

These are truths! 

Under the thread of "suggested breeders" Josh Muller shared about my situation to which people have asked for me to step out of the shadows well I have and here it is.

In conclusion let me say that I find it to be a total freaking disgrace that people cannot act with integrity and do what is right by people. I find it pretty pathetic that people are being screwed over for no other reason than a dollar. There is far too much shadiness, back hand dealing, lying, stealing and cheating that happens behind the scenes. The person who gets screwed are not brokers and breeders. The person who gets screwed are people like me who just wants a great dog to train, work with and do life with. I know that I am not the only person that has had this happen to them and unfortunately I will not be the last.

I would also like to say thanks to Ron Gnodde, Josh Muller and unnamed others who have helped me find the truth. I would also like to say a special thanks to Jeff Gamber and Josh Muller who has offered to give me a pup out of Carlos out of his own pocket if Mike should choose to not make this right.
*
Truth- a verified or indisputable fact, proposition, principle, or the like* - Do with it as you wish.
*




MOD NOTE: PLEASE SEE MIKE SUTTLE'S RESPONSE AT *http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f30/wow-wtf-21054/

*Also see Shane's followup* at http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBul...g-forum-members-mike-suttle-21198/#post288498


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## Thomas Jones (Feb 4, 2011)

They say Mr frost will lock this thread but you have a pretty compelling argument. I can't believe I even thought about getting a dog from him. I read both sides and I'm getting An idea of what's going on.


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## Josh Mueller (Sep 17, 2009)

Sorry you went through all this Shane. There is no honor or integrity in any of this. Youre a good guy and sure dont deserve that


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Like I said, I like Mike, and got a great dog from him. He has always been honest and more than fair with me.

But if that is the real truth of the situation, that is just plain wrong.


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## Josh Mueller (Sep 17, 2009)

1. Caught forging and falsifing pedigrees. 

2. Selling dogs under false breedings.

Anyone for the third strike

The real shame is that Logan Haus Kennels tried twice to defame the character of a member of this forum after he was caught lying. Well the proof is there. 

There is only one LIAR here.


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## Matthew Stansbury (Jul 18, 2011)

Wow, that is hard to digest to be honest. I had planned on contacting Mike to arrange to come view his kennels but if this is true, I want nothing to do with Logan Haus. 

Have you considered taking a legal route to get this resolved? From the date of your email you posted, this has dragged on for almost a year. Far too long.

Just for the sake of somebody not being this shitty of a person, I would hope Mike would come on the forum and explain himself or at least make it right for you. 

I guess I am confused by the thought of somebody ruining their reputation and possibly their business over one dog. Why take that risk? If it were a mistake and his wife sent the wrong dog, it was his mistake and he should not charge for you to ship a dog back or him to ship you another dog. I would maybe understand if you got a dog, from the sire/dam you thought you were getting, and ended up not liking it. But this is outright fraud!

There is a special place in Hell for people like this.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

This is not very good. Hopefully an innocent mistake was made, as the other option is dissapointing to say the least. And being someone who owns semen from Carlos I would hate to think some crap mali was been sold off as a Carlos pup, therefore denting his reputation as a stud.
Say it aint so Mike.


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## jeff gamber (Feb 15, 2010)

Hey chris how's it going down there?

Once Josh contacted me about this late last night, I agreed if need be to send you a pup Shane. Shane as you are a man of god and always are there in support of others, I am more than happy to make this gesture to you.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Thomas Jones said:


> They say Mr frost will lock this thread but you have a pretty compelling argument. I can't believe I even thought about getting a dog from him. I read both sides and I'm getting An idea of what's going on.


Who is "they".

DFrost


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

David Frost said:


> Who is "they".
> 
> DFrost


 You know, "them".


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Christopher Jones said:


> You know, "them".


Of course. Don't know what I was thinking.

DFrost


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## Jesus Alvarez (Feb 6, 2009)

I don't see how a breeder could send you a dog from an entirely different litter by accident but, if it was an honest mistake, it should have been remedied right away.

It's unfortunate to say the least that you didn't get what you paid for and that this still hasn't been resolved a year later.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

jeff gamber said:


> Hey chris how's it going down there?
> 
> Once Josh contacted me about this late last night, I agreed if need be to send you a pup Shane. Shane as you are a man of god and always are there in support of others, I am more than happy to make this gesture to you.


Its going pretty well. Looking forward to seeing how your up comming Carlos pups turn out. Hopefully when I get off my butt I will be able to play with a litter of them myself. 
So how does Carlo compare to Carlos?


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Josh Mueller said:


> 1. Caught forging and falsifing pedigrees.
> 
> 2. Selling dogs under false breedings.
> 
> ...


Okay... now what is your involvement?


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## jeff gamber (Feb 15, 2010)

Brian Anderson said:


> Okay... now what is your involvement?


 
Brian this is a community forum. Shane seeked out assistance in a situation that Ron Gnodde and Josh Muller gave him counsel on.

Okay... now what is your involvement to post "Okay... now what is your involvement?" on a public forum? Absolutely nothing, other than the fact you decided to write a post...


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

What do you guys find more interesting this thread or this video?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2k5sn15tERo 
it’s a tough choice


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

jeff gamber said:


> Brian this is a community forum. Shane seeked out assistance in a situation that Ron Gnodde and Josh Muller gave him counsel on.
> 
> Okay... now what is your involvement to post "Okay... now what is your involvement?" on a public forum? Absolutely nothing, other than the fact you decided to write a post...


Are you speaking for everyone now? I didnt address you did I?


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## jeff gamber (Feb 15, 2010)

Brian Anderson said:


> Are you speaking for everyone now? I didnt address you did I?


No, you're right. You're clearly involved...


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okQsrwMhFjU&feature=related


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

jeff gamber said:


> No, you're right. You're clearly involved...


Yes I am involved in as much as I have been reading and following this stuff. Isn't that what a "community forum" is? In fact unless I missed something I think I was the ONLY or the few that actually answered the OP's origninal question in the breeder thread. I could care less about the drama stuff. But since its up for all to read I am trying to figure it all out. So I asked a simple question.


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## jeff gamber (Feb 15, 2010)

Brian Anderson said:


> Yes I am involved in as much as I have been reading and following this stuff. Isn't that what a "community forum" is? In fact unless I missed something I think I was the ONLY or the few that actually answered the OP's origninal question in the breeder thread. I could care less about the drama stuff. But since its up for all to read I am trying to figure it all out. So I asked a simple question.


Brian then no BS, I apologize. I read your quote to be antagonistic as to Josh's involvement in regards to this matter. The quote you made above is exactly what I was trying to convey, in what seems like now, an unwarranted sarcastic tone. In now way do I like to keyboard whip people in cyberspace, I guess all the "goings on" are starting to grind away at me.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

jeff gamber said:


> Brian then no BS, I apologize. I read your quote to be antagonistic as to Josh's involvement in regards to this matter. The quote you made above is exactly what I was trying to convey, in what seems like now, an unwarranted sarcastic tone. In now way do I like to keyboard whip people in cyberspace, I guess all the "goings on" are starting to grind away at me.


No offense taken brother ... unfortunately we dont have voice inflection while reading this stuff. I don't scuffle on here with anyone. I have no axe to grind in the least with anyone here. Honestly I have learned a ton of shit from people here and met some great folks. I sent the OP a private message to convey my feelings about his post. I hate your by default in the middle of the shit. Its just a sad deal all around if it is what it is.


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## jeff gamber (Feb 15, 2010)

Brian Anderson said:


> No offense taken brother ... unfortunately we dont have voice inflection while reading this stuff. I don't scuffle on here with anyone. I have no axe to grind in the least with anyone here. Honestly I have learned a ton of shit from people here and met some great folks. I sent the OP a private message to convey my feelings about his post. I hate your by default in the middle of the shit. Its just a sad deal all around if it is what it is.


It seems to be tough for all sides involved. You're the man, thanks man...


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## Josh Mueller (Sep 17, 2009)

Brian Anderson said:


> Okay... now what is your involvement?


Well was anythig I said false. Here is my involvement and history before I get slandered. I raised or have worked with an ArkoxDjenna CarlosxNanda HectorxHannah. I have on several occasions been to Logan haus Kennels and helped with both care and feeding/working of the dogs. I did this all not for a single penny but for the chance to learn and work with some of the best genetics I could find. I even sent mike a little malinois named Paco(one of John Grastas dogs) that I took out of a shelter that he found a place for. 

As I said before Mike was a totally different person in my opinion when I first met him. There was a vision and I honestly believed in what he was doing and supported it. I have supported and backed.

My personal beef is two parts. I feel there is a lack of basic care and proper animal husbandry which I have already stated in the breeder suggestions post.

Second is he outwardly has lied and defamed Ron Gnodde. You see I know Ron as do many folks here as well as overseas. I have a MAJOR issue with that. Especially now that Shane has confirmed things.

I helped at the last tactical seminar cleaning and feeding. I saw all the littermates to the dog that was sent to shane. On two occasions I spoke to Stephan who admitted that that entire litter had gone to shit because they had done nothing with them. So deprived of any type of interaction that they would not come inside to eat because they had completely shut down. You can find where they are advertised on WDF under the washout program due to improper fostering. 

the previous time I was there after working Arko I was told that we wouldn't work Carlos because he would rather shoot that dog than deal with him. 

There was a large group of French dogs that were being sent back that I was told to go ahead and break if I wanted to in the work.

Like I said in prior posts the place was different years ago. But the lies and slander and bullshit is something I sure would never expect from another Marine

Just so you can see I always backed mike and was never a "hater" 

http://psak9forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=1232

If you go through the PSA forum you will find numerous posts of mine supporting Logan Haus, and Mike.

I was never there as a paying customer though so take that for what it's worth. I never made a dime off of mike, nor did I ever want to. 

That is my truth


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Josh I wasn't stabbing at you. Just seriously trying to understand it all. I appreciate you telling so we can kinda piece everything together from your perspective. Like I said I have no axe to grind either way.


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## Josh Mueller (Sep 17, 2009)

Brian Anderson said:


> Josh I wasn't stabbing at you. Just seriously trying to understand it all. I appreciate you telling so we can kinda piece everything together from your perspective. Like I said I have no axe to grind either way.


I know Brian. No biggie.


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## jeff gamber (Feb 15, 2010)

the previous time I was there after working Arko I was told that we wouldn't work Carlos because he would rather shoot that dog than deal with him. 

[/QUOTE]

I have to now protect my dog Carlos and his image. Mike told me the same thing when I received the dog. I was told that the dog would put me in the hospital, which there is a very good chance of. I understand the type of dog I received and I have hope in him for returning to his original form in the Netherlands. Carlos was Gerrit Vos' friend and was part of his household with his wife and son. Carlos is a good, social, dominant dog and has a lot to offer me as a dog to live life with and has a lot to offer people looking for great dutch puppies. I'm sure that's why Shane was looking for a pup out of him. 

This is all getting to be too much and hard to handle. Shane made metion of straws on Carlos the timing of this statement concerns me a bit in conjunction with the delays of receiving him.


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## Matthew Stansbury (Jul 18, 2011)

jeff gamber said:


> Shane made metion of straws on Carlos the timing of this statement concerns me a bit in conjunction with the delays of receiving him.


Can you elaborate on this? Sorry, not very clear to me.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

I don't know Shane in any way or form, but I am going to comment any dam ways, all I can say is WOW WOW WOW:twisted:. How in hell do you mix up a pup from a litter, number one and holy shit how the hell if you own one of these dogs know if its really one of those dogs from any litter he has produced and that gos for older ones too.

I am more than glad that nothing ever worked out for me in the past now that I see all this crap ( glad my panties aren't up in a bunch as zakia days said they were yesterday AHHHHHH HAHAHAHA ), although I do feel like A big smuck now for all the folks I sent his way civilian and gov't, alot bought from him too, so guys and gals that are reading this I am truly sorry and apologize and hope your dogs are what there suppose to be.

The fact that this was a man of god to me is mind blowing, that somebody actually has the ****ing nerve and a set on them to do that, this is why the dog world is slowly but surely going to shit in the USA, I just hope to god that the dutch dogs don't turn out like the GSD. WOW still mind blown and sitting here shaking my head, holy crapola.:twisted:


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

jeff gamber said:


> the previous time I was there after working Arko I was told that we wouldn't work Carlos because he would rather shoot that dog than deal with him.


I have to now protect my dog Carlos and his image. Mike told me the same thing when I received the dog. I was told that the dog would put me in the hospital, which there is a very good chance of. I understand the type of dog I received and I have hope in him for returning to his original form in the Netherlands. Carlos was Gerrit Vos' friend and was part of his household with his wife and son. Carlos is a good, social, dominant dog and has a lot to offer me as a dog to live life with and has a lot to offer people looking for great dutch puppies. I'm sure that's why Shane was looking for a pup out of him. 

This is all getting to be too much and hard to handle. Shane made metion of straws on Carlos the timing of this statement concerns me a bit in conjunction with the delays of receiving him.[/QUOTE]

Im would bet my ass that theres collections on him as well as studding after the fact the dog was paid for and in all reality legal wise no longer his, but yours, I would also take a stab that you should of got that dog free for what he owes you in stud fees and semen collections, being that he never asked for your written or verbal permission to go ahead and do the above acts. JMO though not fact

In do time you will see pups from him ranging in that time period, if ya dont he will probally hold back the entire litters for the gov't or falsify like he did to poor Shane and who knows who else to unload them, theres a old saying if ya done it once you will most likely do it again and again, even after getting caught. As well as Semen it would be scary to court order the vet that he uses or vets he uses to find that at, that would also scare me to know the truth. To me thats above any conduct unbecoming as a dogman or gov't provider and should be removed, If I was Shane I would proceed with legal actions as well once settled go ahead and have legal documentation sent out to all the gov't agencies, thats just me though.



*
Mod note: Mike Suttle's response is at *http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f30/wow-wtf-21054/


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

I think that this is turning into a witch hunt by a few people, I've never met either one of the parties involved but if this is just one incident I think it's getting too much press.

Lots of people have complaints about pups but everybody knows it's a gamble no matter what any breeder tells you otherwise, the mixing up of pups with those of another litter is a different story...but if the pup had 2 nuts and worked out, this story would be different..no matter what litter it came from right ?


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I think that this is turning into a witch hunt by a few people, I've never met either one of the parties involved but if this is just one incident I think it's getting too much press.
> 
> Lots of people have complaints about pups but everybody knows it's a gamble no matter what any breeder tells you otherwise, the mixing up of pups with those of another litter is a different story...but if the pup had 2 nuts and worked out, this story would be different..no matter what litter it came from right ?


 
Ya I agree, this is getting out a bit out of control here. I don’t know anyone involved. I don’t know if this whole thing is really something that should be posted on a forum. Harries already calling lawyers and putting the guy out of business. As far as not taking care of the animals I really cant imagine things being that bad. I mean the guy let you into his facility with a camera. Regarding the “shoot him rather than work him thing” I would imagine he is not the first person to say something like that regarding a dog and wont be the last. A little taken out of context?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Nothing to do with Carlos or the rest of this thread or Mike or anyone else in particular...

But,

I would think an owner of a dog is allowed to collect as much semen as he wants while he owns it, and do what he pleases with it. 

It is his dog at that time. When someone buys a dog from a previous owner, they are buying the physical dog only. At least that is how I see it.

Also if a person has frozen semen that they purchased, it is obviously fair to advertise the use of that semen/dog in their breeding, and also to let people know that they have possession of straws from that dog, if they so choose.


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## Chris Jones II (Mar 20, 2011)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I think that this is turning into a witch hunt by a few people, I've never met either one of the parties involved but if this is just one incident I think it's getting too much press.
> 
> Lots of people have complaints about pups but everybody knows it's a gamble no matter what any breeder tells you otherwise, the mixing up of pups with those of another litter is a different story...but if the pup had 2 nuts and worked out, this story would be different..no matter what litter it came from right ?


Yeah. But the pup had one ball up and one down, and the pup was a POS so it is an issue that should have been remedied. Yeah pups are a gamble but if the breeder says he will replace a POS then he should replace a POS. If the breeder gave no guarantees then the new owner is just up shits creek. Oh well. 

I want to know why shane just up and re-homed the dog with one ball still up and whether he informed the new owner that the dog they were getting was a POS. and why anyone would take a puppy knowing they would probably have to drop cash for surgery knowing the dog had temperament problems??? 

If Shane just unloaded the puppy on some unwitting new owner then he's just as bad as Loganhaus.


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## Archie Young (Nov 10, 2010)

I've been thankful to these forums, a long time trainer, student of dog sports, and as a whole, enjoy the discussions found here at WDF. I never thought that I'd be compelled to post for such a reason... but I truly feel sorry for the OP.. he's the victim here. Unfortunately, after doing my own research- which included several interviews, I can no longer recommend Mike Suttle, Loganhaus to anyone in need of a working dog or puppy. I am sure that he has done many right, but there definitely exists the possibility for him to be dishonest in his business dealings. I guess when it comes to the dog business, it's true that there are more shady dealers than honest ones.. wish that wasn't true.

What is particularly troubling is the reputation in these forums that Mike Suttle has built before.. which he has benefited from AND abused. I hope that he learns from all of this, and will do right in his future dealings. 

A great start would be by being a man, owing up and making a public apology... 

Any comments Mr. Suttle?


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## Matthew Stansbury (Jul 18, 2011)

Chris Jones II said:


> Yeah. But the pup had one ball up and one down, and the pup was a POS so it is an issue that should have been remedied. Yeah pups are a gamble but if the breeder says he will replace a POS then he should replace a POS. If the breeder gave no guarantees then the new owner is just up shits creek. Oh well.
> 
> I want to know why shane just up and re-homed the dog with one ball still up and whether he informed the new owner that the dog they were getting was a POS. and why anyone would take a puppy knowing they would probably have to drop cash for surgery knowing the dog had temperament problems???
> 
> If Shane just unloaded the puppy on some unwitting new owner then he's just as bad as Loganhaus.


I would hope that the pup was homed as a pet and not to a working home. Also, all of it's issues were divulged to the new owners.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Archie Young said:


> I've been thankful to these forums, a long time trainer, student of dog sports, and as a whole, enjoy the discussions found here at WDF. I never thought that I'd be compelled to post for such a reason... but I truly feel sorry for the OP.. he's the victim here. Unfortunately, after doing my own research- which included several interviews, I can no longer recommend Mike Suttle, Loganhaus to anyone in need of a working dog or puppy. I am sure that he has done many right, but there definitely exists the possibility for him to be dishonest in his business dealings. I guess when it comes to the dog business, it's true that there are more shady dealers than honest ones.. wish that wasn't true.
> 
> What is particularly troubling is the reputation in these forums that Mike Suttle has built before.. which he has benefited from AND abused. I hope that he learns from all of this, and will do right in his future dealings.
> 
> ...


Who the **** are you now, mr one post ??

_
mod note: Archie Young has been asked to post his bio before making any additional posts._


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Matthew Stansbury said:


> I would hope that the pup was homed as a pet and not to a working home. Also, all of it's issues were divulged to the new owners.


For the sake of the pup here, the age and issues of which I don't know does not necessarily mean it won't work in a particular venue or maturity won't fix. Maybe it wasn't what was expected or it was garbage, but some pups aren't great very young or show later, some develop. Yeah yeah, some just have it, but to say a pet home right of the top without seeing for yourself. One person garbage is another's treasure! It very well could of been garbage, but I don't think anyone here can say either way and some are willing to work with less....look at all the threads talking about shelter dogs, now tell me they don't have issues....Just a thought.


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## Drew Peirce (Nov 16, 2006)

Not a witch hunt, purely the truth that has been buried far too long finally coming into the light.
90% of his business was garnered from this board, so it's only logical that the true facts be put here to balance out all the fantasies.

Even though the brook/dunya fraud and now this pup fraud has been exposed they are just 2 tip of the iceberg examples, the guy who has the entire story is the former head trainer/partner who lived and worked there for 2 years, he hasnt spoken yet.

I commend shane for finally coming forward in the face of strong opposition from parties here that have no stake in the matter and are merely hecklers, they arent hard to identify............

When frauds are exposed the first defense is always to throw people off the trail by claiming it's a witch hunt, anyone who looks at this objectively can see this is far from that.


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## Matthew Stansbury (Jul 18, 2011)

Archie Young; said:


> A great start would be by being a man, owing up and making a public apology...
> 
> Any comments Mr. Suttle?


Could not agree more. Prior to this week, all I had heard of Logan Haus was wonderful. I heard his facilities were top notch, his dogs were great, he was a top notch guy, provided a working and health guarantee, etc.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Chris McDonald said:


> Ya I agree, this is getting out a bit out of control here. I don’t know anyone involved. I don’t know if this whole thing is really something that should be posted on a forum. Harries already calling lawyers and putting the guy out of business. As far as not taking care of the animals I really cant imagine things being that bad. I mean the guy let you into his facility with a camera. Regarding the “shoot him rather than work him thing” I would imagine he is not the first person to say something like that regarding a dog and wont be the last. A little taken out of context?


Harry is NOT doing any shit like you stated that I am supposedly doing Chris, I just simply stated in all reality should really happen in a perfect world, I did NOT cause this man his problems, he is doing a great job of digging his own grave with the shit hes pulling. 

Reason I bring the gov't contracts into it, is because that to me hits ****ing home Chris, my father is now retired since 9/11 and uncle is still on the job as a statie in NYC, along with more family and friends on the job, not only that I am from Brooklyn, NYC and have pretty much my entire family for the most part living and working there. Mike provides dogs to the three letter agencies ( which I have friends on ) as well as departments, so to know that those dogs could be BS and whos to say there not does bother me.

Yes I know what ya going to say is that they still past the test, yes I agree with that statement so need to argument, but do we as tax paying citizens really want somebody of those ethics and morals getting our hard earned tax dollars, I sure the **** don't as well I would to venture alot of folks that are reading would agree with this statement. :-o


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> Nothing to do with Carlos or the rest of this thread or Mike or anyone else in particular...
> 
> But,
> 
> ...


Joby you are 110% right on collecting and studding and advertising, first let me say that. But when they are buying the dog and commitment has been made by both parties on such and such date at such and such time and they have ALREADY recieved the money, guess what its no longer there dog to do that with, you understand. 

At that time they become more of a boarding facility for that dog / care taker once all is agreed and paid on, now its the purchasers dog to give PERMISSION to do collection or studding with, if that is never established by Mr. A to let Mr. B do it, then its truly a illegal act.

Here lets removed the set of nutts and prick and put it in maybe girly terms and point of view. Say your dog LUNA gets pregnant before you pick her up or she is delivered and you have already agreed on everything and shes paid for, but the dude you buy her from decides to breed her to a male showline GSD ( just saying ). Well its his dog because he still had possesion of it, even though you have already agreed on everything and paid for her you have no rights, come on Joby it don't work like that fella, Your saying to yourself right now, WOW thats ****ed up.;-)


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Harry Keely said:


> Joby you are 110% right on collecting and studding and advertising, first let me say that. But when they are buying the dog and commitment has been made by both parties on such and such date at such and such time and they have ALREADY recieved the money, guess what its no longer there dog to do that with, you understand.
> 
> At that time they become more of a boarding facility for that dog / care taker once all is agreed and paid on, now its the purchasers dog to give PERMISSION to do collection or studding with, if that is never established by Mr. A to let Mr. B do it, then its truly a illegal act.
> 
> Here lets removed the set of nutts and prick and put it in maybe girly terms and point of view. Say your dog LUNA gets pregnant before you pick her up or she is delivered and you have already agreed on everything and shes paid for, but the dude you buy her from decides to breed her to a male showline GSD ( just saying ). Well its his dog because he still had possesion of it, even though you have already agreed on everything and paid for her you have no rights, come on Joby it don't work like that fella, Your saying to yourself right now, WOW thats ****ed up.;-)


I got you Harry. IF indeed the collections were made after the sale, and that WAS the reason for a delay, that is just plain wrong as well.

I was not understanding the logistics of it...

Is this verifiable or speculation?

Like I said if this stuff is true, then it is just plain wrong.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> I got you Harry. IF indeed the collections were made after the sale, and that WAS the reason for a delay, that is just plain wrong as well.
> 
> I was not understanding the logistics of it...
> 
> ...


Joby I am not able to verify it or specualte it I guess thats a question more towards the eye of the beholders, sorry to drag Luna into it, maybe should of made up a random female name, just figure I would put it in simple terms for all parties reading and participating to see it and understand it ya know.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Drew Peirce said:


> Not a witch hunt, purely the truth that has been buried far too long finally coming into the light.
> 90% of his business was garnered from this board, so it's only logical that the true facts be put here to balance out all the fantasies.
> 
> Even though the brook/dunya fraud and now this pup fraud has been exposed they are just 2 tip of the iceberg examples, the guy who has the entire story is the former head trainer/partner who lived and worked there for 2 years, he hasnt spoken yet.
> ...


If 90% of his buisness was garnered from this board and one person has a complaint....


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

Come on Drew u are exposing ur self. Everyone knows 90% of his business does not come from this board. The important part is how a breeder fixes his problems. If he gives Shane a good new pup and pays for the shipping pI think problem solved.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Harry Keely said:


> Harry is NOT doing any shit like you stated that I am supposedly doing Chris, I just simply stated in all reality should really happen in a perfect world, I did NOT cause this man his problems, he is doing a great job of digging his own grave with the shit hes pulling.
> 
> Reason I bring the gov't contracts into it, is because that to me hits ****ing home Chris, my father is now retired since 9/11 and uncle is still on the job as a statie in NYC, along with more family and friends on the job, not only that I am from Brooklyn, NYC and have pretty much my entire family for the most part living and working there. Mike provides dogs to the three letter agencies ( which I have friends on ) as well as departments, so to know that those dogs could be BS and whos to say there not does bother me.
> 
> Yes I know what ya going to say is that they still past the test, yes I agree with that statement so need to argument, but do we as tax paying citizens really want somebody of those ethics and morals getting our hard earned tax dollars, I sure the **** don't as well I would to venture alot of folks that are reading would agree with this statement. :-o


Give me a break, Your pathetic to be dragging 9/11 into this as a reason of why you feel you need to step up and bitch. Oh you got family in the NY area and you’re from Brooklyn.. now I understand #-o.
 As far as tax money going to someone with low morals and ethics, you got to be kidding? You do realize you’re talking about government spending? 
For all I know he might be the scum of the world but my gut tells me you might not be far behind.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> If 90% of his buisness was garnered from this board and one person has a complaint....


Don’t forget about the other guy who has been only reading for a long time deciding to make his first post today.


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

Wow this is going off the charts. I've read this whole thing and I think there is two sides (at least) to every story. When Mike decides to give his side so much the better. But all these assumptions or taking it as gospel that isn't right. What with all the personalities it's a real cluster ...k! I would also bet no one here is perfect? Well maybe a couple of us......


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Steve Estrada said:


> Wow this is going off the charts. ....



Yes. And Harry, you removed that post in a timely fashion; please don't make another one that's even close to that in language or aspersions.






*
Mod note: Mike Suttle's response is at *http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f30/wow-wtf-21054/


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Just for the record the NY/ Brooklyn comment was in no way meant to insult you or your family nor did I imply to insult anyone for what they done. It was meant to be sarcasm in showing how pathetic you are for having to use 9/11 as a reason for you to step up. As well as using the excuse/ reason for having family in the area or on the job. Many of us have family living in the same areas and doing the same. 
Im OK with you being insulted by anything else I said


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

I take it Harry's post has been deleted ?? I think it should have stayed, or at least the provocative post by Chris should be gone too to keep it level playing field no ?


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Steve Estrada said:


> Wow this is going off the charts. I've read this whole thing and I think there is two sides (at least) to every story. When Mike decides to give his side so much the better. But all these assumptions or taking it as gospel that isn't right. What with all the personalities it's a real cluster ...k! I would also bet no one here is perfect? Well maybe a couple of us......


 
Exactly


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

maggie fraser said:


> I take it Harry's post has been deleted ?? I think it should have stayed, or at least the provocative post by Chris should be gone too to keep it level playing field no ?



It was deleted by Harry. As it clearly states:
_
"This message has been deleted by Harry Keely."_


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

maggie fraser said:


> I take it Harry's post has been deleted ?? I think it should have stayed, or at least the provocative post by Chris should be gone too to keep it level playing field no ?


 
I agree


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Harry Keely said:


> Joby I am not able to verify it or specualte it I guess thats a question more towards the eye of the beholders, sorry to drag Luna into it, maybe should of made up a random female name, just figure I would put it in simple terms for all parties reading and participating to see it and understand it ya know.


no problem Harry, I didnt take it the wrong way at all, I didnt fully understand what you meant in the first place thats all...


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> It was deleted by Harry. As it clearly states:
> 
> _"This message has been deleted by Harry Keely."_


 
Got it


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Chris McDonald said:


> Give me a break, Your pathetic to be dragging 9/11 into this as a reason of why you feel you need to step up and bitch. Oh you got family in the NY area and you’re from Brooklyn.. now I understand #-o.
> As far as tax money going to someone with low morals and ethics, you got to be kidding? You do realize you’re talking about government spending?
> For all I know he might be the scum of the world but my gut tells me you might not be far behind.


I'll give you a break, where would u like it Chris:lol::lol::lol:, Hey if it makes you look better to name call and call me pathetic tuff guy than have at it, but actually my logic is right on point because if you have been around for anytime before and after you will see that 9/11 is the MAIN factor that most these big operations are in business and have contracts for one reason or another being linked to that day.

I'll give the part of dragging my family into it and being in NYC and so forth and so on.:mrgreen:

Yes I think everybody including yourself know that tax dollars equal government#-o

As far as being mentioned to any part or link of a large operation or scum bagging folks, do you have proof of this like the rest of everybody else is asking for, or is that you flying off the handle in a desperate act to associate to drag others into one mans downward spiral. Because if thats the case please have that person come forward because I will gladly ADMIT to it, I dont hide behind others or a computer so please post away all the people I have ****ed over, oh wait there are none are there:roll:](*,)


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Yes. And Harry, you removed that post in a timely fashion; please don't make another one that's even close to that in language or *aspersions*.


you got words, I had to look that one up.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

maggie fraser said:


> I take it Harry's post has been deleted ?? I think it should have stayed, or at least the provocative post by Chris should be gone too to keep it level playing field no ?





Connie Sutherland said:


> It was deleted by Harry. As it clearly states:
> 
> _"This message has been deleted by Harry Keely."_


Yes thats true, I flew off the handle and started typing over the NY thing and the close second comment, so to avoid the childish shit I was writing I thought I delete it, because it was a act of the heat of the moment.

So sorry to who it was intended for any all the curious minds:-({|=


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Since the same posters here have posted over and over, can we assume that everyone has stated their "sides"?


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Yes. And Harry, you removed that post in a timely fashion; please don't make another one that's even close to that in language or aspersions.


Yea well Connie, I am only human, so I think I am going to smack my own wrist and take a back seat for awhile, obviously I have to much passion for dogs and take dogs very seriously, and have a zero tolerance policy for people getting rail roaded one way or another by another over a dog.

So sorry mods and sorry to anybody who got the favored returned by me after the fact of attacks being fired, so like I said see ya for awhile WDF, folks contact me by PM on here or through FB or of course by phone and or email. This dogman has heard, seen and all he wants to for while here[--&=;

Anybody who wants to be a sissy and take your cheap shots hes your chance because all I do if anything for awhile is read the BS on here, theres alot of old timers on here that know what there talking about and for that reason I will continue to pop on here from time to time while taking a time out.:wink:

PM sent to you Chris.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Harry, there is a thread right up your alley open right now. The thread is "Who is in control?" Read and learn. :grin:


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

_
*** mod deleted brief response to other deleted post ***_

As far as proof I have no proof of anything. And really you do not either but you jumped right in for a “court order”. I never called you a scumbag. In my dealings I found many scammers need something to hide behind such _*** mod deleted brief response to other deleted post ***_. Your being fecicious is continuing to tell me what I might be dealing with. Maybe im wrong maybe im not? 
Do you have_ *** mod deleted brief response to other deleted post *** _on your business card? It will help me with my decision making process 
And because I think you do make your living in the dog related industry I want to make sure everyone knows that I never had any dealings with you nor do I know anyone who has and I never heard anyone say a bad thing about you or your business. I want to make that clear because the last thing I ever want to do is take money out of someone’s pocket because of my comments I made. For anyone to jump on the band wagon of breaking someone’s business without knowing the facts would make them a scum bag.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Since the same posters here have posted over and over, can we assume that everyone has stated their "sides"?


I don't have a side, if I did it would lean towards Shanes grievance.

I purchased a 1.5 yr old Czech GSD from a Breeder in that county a few yrs ago, was supposed to be bombproof and I paid the bombproof price.

Took him for a walk across a pedestrian bridge over a river..he hit the deck when he saw water moving underneath and I had to carry him off, breeder/broker/lying peice of crap told me I stressed the dog out and it was my fault.

Ya pays ur money and ya takes ur chances.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I don't have a side, if I did it would lean towards Shanes grievance.
> 
> I purchased a 1.5 yr old Czech GSD from a Breeder in that county a few yrs ago, was supposed to be bombproof and I paid the bombproof price.
> 
> ...


I think the lesson of this thread is to see before you buy.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

OK, then, looks like everyone has spoken their piece, and then some.

Anyone new to this thread who has some involvement and something new to say, please PM a mod.



*NOTE: Please see Mike Suttle's response at *http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f30/wow-wtf-21054/
*
Also see Shane's followup at *http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBul...g-forum-members-mike-suttle-21198/#post288498


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