# problem solving



## Bart Karmich (Jul 16, 2010)

the distance from the gate to the fence and the height of the fence depends on the size of the dog
this assumes the dog wants to follow the handler but it could be a decoy or agitator instead if its that kind of dog


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

huh?? LOL...........


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Greta would assess the fence quickly, then go back out the gate and come to me.
Libby would dig, climb, bite it, then turn and go out the gate. 
The pup would sit and wait patiently lol.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

will repost...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

This is basically one scenario I did in events...did it two times at differnet ones..small variations..one with A frame, one without... one time it was just a large excercise kennel, with gate on right side...one time chainlink the other welded wire...

Large rectangles are kennels. small rectangle is A-frame over the kennel fence.

Dog is small red dot... 
Handler is blue dot.
Decoy is Larger Purple dot.

Dog is put into a down right in front of an A-frame.
Handler walks around, opens a gate, walks into the kennel area, goes up and talks to the decoy who is in front of the dog, on the side of the aframe, but separated by the fence...argument ensues, decoy grabs handler and dog is supposed to come to his aid and bite/fight decoy.

Dog had option to go over A-frame, or go either way around the kennel setup and find the gate, and enter, and engage decoy.

timed event, top 5 times got bonus points for the scenario...

It was very interesting to see what certain dogs did... 

not one went over the aframe, which would have been the fastest.

Not one jumped over the fence.

one dog ran face first into the chainlink, making an indentation in the fence that was like a bucket.

I would be hesitant to make predictions on what my dog would do..like I said it was interesting...


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## Bart Karmich (Jul 16, 2010)

sweet... it's like an outside-in variation of my inside-out problem. The opposite direction from the target to acquire the gate is counter-intuitive to the dog but it should occur to them because they just came through it. In your scenario they witness the handler use it. Over the fence is the most straightforward solution but I find that fences and other barriers can be real mental. My dog will climb over a near-vertical a-frame at 7 foot but has never thought to jump the 6 foot fence. I take him out to work on different fences and it seems like every new fence is like the first one. He'll balk at a 4' fence if he's never been over one like it before. Heck, he can clear 4' without touching. I am sure that the desire/motivation level affects problem solving, but sometimes extreme desire is counterproductive as in the fence smasher. Dogs need a balance of desire and a level head to solve problems. Apparently mine's not the only one that needs to experience the solutions and build a collection in his memory he can hopefully continue to draw on going forward.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

It's not quite the same thing but I did a little bit of that in this video with my dog when she was younger. It's more similar problem solving to the barriers described than the scenarios but I purposely shut off the exits so that she would have to take the most direct route to get what she wanted. That was really the primary goal of the various things done in this video. It's not all that interesting to watch but check it out if you like.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TiyFKKFnXDA&NR=1&feature=endscreen


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Bart Karmich said:


> sweet... it's like an outside-in variation of my inside-out problem. The opposite direction from the target to acquire the gate is counter-intuitive to the dog but it should occur to them because they just came through it. In your scenario they witness the handler use it. Over the fence is the most straightforward solution but I find that fences and other barriers can be real mental. My dog will climb over a near-vertical a-frame at 7 foot but has never thought to jump the 6 foot fence. I take him out to work on different fences and it seems like every new fence is like the first one. He'll balk at a 4' fence if he's never been over one like it before. Heck, he can clear 4' without touching. I am sure that the desire/motivation level affects problem solving, but sometimes extreme desire is counterproductive as in the fence smasher. Dogs need a balance of desire and a level head to solve problems. Apparently mine's not the only one that needs to experience the solutions and build a collection in his memory he can hopefully continue to draw on going forward.


Bart...
dog was set up directly in front of A frame, facing it...the dogs were allowed to go over a frame before the event started, like a warmup...but the handlers did not know exactly what was going to happen with it...so almost all of the dogs had gone over the a-frame already that day into that kennel...I thought for sure at least one dog was gonna go over it...I was wrong..

most of the dogs started barking and lunging at the fence, trying to bite the decoy through the fence, initially...some dogs then ran the fence, jumping up and down, some ran around to the side...some did figure it out rather quickly..handler was allowed to help the dog, as far as gestures and verbals...

I will say that many people were surprised by what their dogs did, and so was I to be quite frank..especially the ones that had gone over the a frame a few times, an hour before that...

woulda been interesting if it was a privacy fence..but that wouldnt be as fun, less for the dogs to focus on... ... when we did it with the chainlink, we had moving blankets over the top to help avoid injuries in case a dog did decide to go over..the welded wire I was not worried.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Nicole Stark said:


> It's not quite the same thing but I did a little bit of that in this video with my dog when she was younger. It's more similar problem solving to the barriers described than the scenarios but I purposely shut off the exits so that she would have to take the most direct route to get what she wanted. That was really the primary goal of the various things done in this video. It's not all that interesting to watch but check it out if you like.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TiyFKKFnXDA&NR=1&feature=endscreen


I thought about having the handler close the gate, making the A frame the easiest option, but the fences were 6 foot and I did not really want to encourage dogs to try to jump it..it was all breed event..plus it might have taken forever that way...


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> I thought about having the handler close the gate, making the A frame the easiest option, but the fences were 6 foot and I did not really want to encourage dogs to try to jump it..it was all breed event..plus it might have taken forever that way...


I wouldn't want to encourage that either for a lot of reasons. Injury being a primary concern and the other that it's not all that necessary of an activity to do in a training scenario with sport dogs. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EaBk2Z4pJA8&list=PLBA0718ECEAEF61E7&index=12&feature=plpp_video


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

interesting subject
if you really want to focus strictly on the dog's ability to "problem solve" you might need to take the human out of the picture ... otherwise the human factor greatly affects the outcome of the dog's decision making ...
- in fact i believe this has been studied a lot and it was determined that domestication of canines has greatly diminished their ability for basic problem solving compared to wolves, who were superior when both were tested and confronted with the same problem.

i also read a study comparing cats to dogs that was very interesting in the different way they solved space/access problems

- otoh, if you are testing dogs with humans to see what their reactions to different humans are, the different set ups are interesting to observe the different drives and relationships they have with their owners, etc
...which looks like what you are doing here, so probably want to delete my first part as just being "apples and oranges" 

haven't set up these type of situations but i've used (opaque) fence obstacles a lot to confidence test ... some won't jump until they have seen what's on the other side or the owner is on the other side
...some don't care and will jump ... i've looked at this as a measure of confidence, but maybe it's just hard wired drive or a preference for jumping stuff; who knows


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

I think this is something that a dog could learn from experience.

I wonder if dogs are just so used to fences being continuous around them, that they don't think that there is a way out or in by going around.

Some dogs seem to grasp the concept of running away from what they want to get around a fence that's in their way, others never seem to get it. I think if you set up problems like this for them, starting with easy ones, they would start to figure out longer and more complex ones. 

My DS did go directly over a 5 ft chain link fence at someone's house to go meet her dogs on the other side once. Totally surprised us both. Good thing her dogs were friendly.


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

leslie cassian said:


> I think this is something that a dog could learn from experience.
> 
> I wonder if dogs are just so used to fences being continuous around them, that they don't think that there is a way out or in by going around.
> 
> ...


I think this makes sense. My pup for example is kept in a fence with electric wire, so she won't test one. The older dogs, won't test the yard fence, but will any other non electric I believe because of experience.


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## Bart Karmich (Jul 16, 2010)

Personally my goal is to assess where the dog is and try to make progress from there. It may be interesting scientifically, and that could inform my expecatations and so on, but ultimately I'm interested in practical work. I do believe dogs can learn solutions and remember them later but that process doesn't always work as easily as we might expect. Not remembering the a-frame is a good example. There's a lot of dogs that having experienced a solution once in a different context won't necessarily make the connection between what seems to be a new problem (a decoy now) and the same solution (a frame w/o decoy).

As for fence safety I think you have to be conservative in a trial. Your own assessment of the risk might cause you to send your dog over, but in a trial you have to consider both the high number of repetitions and that you want the confidence of all the handler/owners that their dogs are not at unnecessary risk.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I would not say it is a scientific approach to view problem solving skills in the dogs, but can show some of them.

I know that not all the dogs we did it with grew up surrounded by fences, although most did I am sure.. I truly think if we did what we did with a privacy fence, more dogs would have figured it out quicker, because they would have just run the fence and saw the opening much quicker (in theory anyhow)


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