# Best Way to get a good out



## George Henson IV

I have a super high ball drive Mal. He's awesome but when I reward him with the ball it becomes a fight to get it back. When I go to load him up or get him near the truck and say "Los" he will let me grab it out of his mouth with very very little fight. How do I overcome this obstacle without destroying his drive? I've used corrections on the choke consistently but he would rather have the ball than oxygen. I'm open to suggestions as I just want to find a good route that will work consistently for him. 

Thanks for the help.


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## Faisal Khan

Choking him off is building more drive so it will get harder to out. Use 2 ball for now, command out and get his attn on ball2 in your hand, reward with ball2 when he spits ball1.


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## Bob Scott

George, pleas fill out a bit of info about yourself in the Member's Bio forum. It's a WDF requirement. 


Thanks
WDF Moderators


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## andreas broqvist

Ore just dropp it, let him have it and then give him the Los comand. When ther is no fight it often not that fun. Pick it upp and reward him with it again. 

Its ofte the fighting that they want and therfor when it stops and you give a comand its easyer for him to get that. 
you can even do a down before if he has a hard time to let it go, so his focus is less on the ball and more on you.


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## Steve Burger

1. Don't use a ball. 
2. reward with a tug. 
3. teach the out with the tug
4. Take the tug to the ground, make it dead. 
5. If the dog outs at the point, then give out command. 
6. Praise
7. re-activate tug (if for training a bark and hold for future like in IPO then make him bark to activate tug). 
8. If the dog does not out on number 4, then pull the leash with attached pinch collar toward the tug, with your foot on the dead tug on the ground. At this point when the dog DOES let go go to #5. 

The problem right now is you are instilling a battle between you and the dog over the ball. Using another ball does not solve the problem of the dog has to out on your command, not because there is something new and shiny. 

BTW the best thing to do is to teach the above series when the dog is a puppy before it becomes a problem.


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## rick smith

interesting topic to dig in to once your bio gets posted....

in the meanwhile, 
what Andreas and others and yourself are talking about has nothing to do with teaching an out ... imo
- they are just suggesting ways it might be easier to take something away that your K9 has in it's mouth 

for me an out simply means drop and release what's in your mouth, anytime anywhere, anything; pure and simple.....not just a ball given as a reward 

....for me, just being able to wait until it loses interest and taking something away has nothing to do with a trained out

.....in your case, if it's a psd and not a sport dog, i also would want to know if the dog has any out in ANY situation, and do you lift it off bites and use verbal outs for re-certs, etc

but to train an out is no different than training any other behavior.
either reward the correct response with something the dogs wants, keep correcting it until it starts complying, or use a combination of both

since your dog is "ball driven" and the ball is used for a reward, you will confuse the heck out of it if you reward it and then correct your reward by making it spit out the ball with a leash crank

what Steve just posted will work but is dependent on the foundation you started out with, the tug sizes and a few other variables. and i'm assuming you will continue to use a ball reward, which may not transfer as easily

the times you decide to use when you start teaching the foundation for an out will also come into play. meaning, trying to start teaching an out when the dog is pumped and you have rewarded with his ball, would NOT be the best time imo 

so hurry up with that bio and provide some background on his outing with it so we can get some good debates and arguments rolling //lol//


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## andreas broqvist

rick smith said:


> in the meanwhile,
> what Andreas and others and yourself are talking about has nothing to do with teaching an out ... imo
> - they are just suggesting ways it might be easier to take something away that your K9 has in it's mouth


But that is a way to teaching an out . If you find ways to go around the problem to make the dog sucseed and then reward it you teaching the dog to out. Word > Sucseed > reward = teaching 

If the dogs out everytime you tell it to out it will get that into its head. Then you nead to make it harder ore easyer depending how mutch stimulus the dog get ore how importent the thing it has in his moth is.


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## Geoff Empey

George Henson IV said:


> I have a super high ball drive Mal. He's awesome but when I reward him with the ball it becomes a fight to get it back. When I go to load him up or get him near the truck and say "Los" he will let me grab it out of his mouth with very very little fight. How do I overcome this obstacle without destroying his drive? I've used corrections on the choke consistently but he would rather have the ball than oxygen. I'm open to suggestions as I just want to find a good route that will work consistently for him.





George Henson IV said:


> Best Way to get a good out


Basically in a nutshell give the dog what he wants. Which is another bite. :grin: 

It has nothing to do with a command or how forceful you are in training with your voice or with any correction. It is about repetition with reward, as well as to build a working bond with the animal and not take that bond for granted. 

I look at it like this. With retrieves, bite work anything that requires the dog to give up something of value to the handler. I ingrain from a pup that there is always something for something. I never *not pay* my dogs in training, for giving up an item or outing of a toy or even a off a decoy in training. If you get lazy paying the dog the dog will get lazy paying you. So always always make it worthwhile for the dog. Really it is always a work in progress throuout the life and career of the dog until the dog really matures at 5-6 years old then you may have reliability, until then you dance the dance. Even if you have to compulse the dog to out when the dog outs you trade with something pleasant, so the dog never thinks he is getting the short end of the stick.


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## George Henson IV

Ok I believe I have completed my bio. 

In response to some of the methods...I tried the 2 ball method, he knows the game and it still requires a strong correction to out him on the first ball....if he comes off at all. 

I've been given 3 different methods to achieve this and I want this dog and I to be successful. I guess it is just a continual repetition....I just expected him to get it by now. 

Like I said in my original post....I put him in the truck and give him the command and he lets me pull the ball out with no fight at all. Same with standing at the door of the truck...but you get 5 feet away and it's a big game for him.


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## Gillian Schuler

or me an out simply means drop and release what's in your mouth, anytime anywhere, anything; pure and simple.....not just a ball given as a reward









You might not mean this the same way as I do Rick but it works for me and my current dog. 

Whether he is holding on to a football, biting a tug, biting into a sleeve, biting another dog, etc. "out" is a release of the jaw muscles.

This has never affected his protection work but OUT IS OUT.


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## Gillian Schuler

[I said:


> Gillian Schuler;490929]or me an out simply means drop and release what's in your mouth, anytime anywhere, anything; pure and simple.....not just a ball given as a reward
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/I]
> 
> You might not mean this the same way as I do Rick but it works for me and my current dog.
> 
> Whether he is holding on to a football, biting a tug, biting into a sleeve, biting another dog, etc. "out" is a release of the jaw muscles.
> 
> This has never affected his protection work but OUT IS OUT.


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## Gillian Schuler

[QUOTE 
for me an out simply means drop and release what's in your mouth, anytime anywhere, anything; pure and simple.....not just a ball given as a reward 

....QUOTE]

You might not mean this the same way as I do Rick but it works for me and my current dog. 

Whether he is holding on to a football, biting a tug, biting into a sleeve, biting another dog, etc. "out" is a release of the jaw muscles.

This has never affected his protection work but OUT IS OUT.


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## David Winners

Steve Burger said:


> 1. Don't use a ball.
> 2. reward with a tug.
> 3. teach the out with the tug
> 4. Take the tug to the ground, make it dead.
> 5. If the dog outs at the point, then give out command.
> 6. Praise
> 7. re-activate tug (if for training a bark and hold for future like in IPO then make him bark to activate tug).
> 8. If the dog does not out on number 4, then pull the leash with attached pinch collar toward the tug, with your foot on the dead tug on the ground. At this point when the dog DOES let go go to #5.
> 
> The problem right now is you are instilling a battle between you and the dog over the ball. Using another ball does not solve the problem of the dog has to out on your command, not because there is something new and shiny.
> 
> BTW the best thing to do is to teach the above series when the dog is a puppy before it becomes a problem.


I like this method.

David Winners


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## Ted Summers

toy trade and wait him out. As mentioned use a tug or a ball on a rope so you have something to tug with. 

Ive done it as follows:

Reward
tug tug tug
tug goes dead but I don't let go
command out
wave 2nd tug in his face
AS SOON AS he releases and goes for the second I mark it with 'yes'


When the game is over I let him have the ball. They'll bring it to me and punch me with it or drop it at my feet, trying to get me to engage, I'll ignore it or move them into a heel/foos and walk them off. They'll usually just drop it. As mentioned no tug no fun. I don't do a 'mandatory' out with a correction until I know 110% they know what it means.


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## Thomas Barriano

I like to keep it simple with one tug. When I want my dog to out I immobilize the tug so there is no reward. When the dog releases on his own (you may need to wait for awhile) I mark and reward with another game of tug. After a bit I label the behavior with the "out/aus" command. Good old Michael Ellis technique


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## Matt Vandart

I had this problem with one of my dobes and steve suggested the exact same thing to me. It worked well.
However.
I had the same thing with my Mal and what I did was just got hold of her collar (flat collar) with one hand and pulled it towards me to invoke opposition reflex and she outed so she could move back.
Then I moved on to stepping on the lead and moving my hand towards her, this worked also, now she outs a ball. Not so lucky with a wedge, lol.


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## David Baker

Thomas Barriano said:


> I like to keep it simple with one tug. When I want my dog to out I immobilize the tug so there is no reward. When the dog releases on his own (you may need to wait for awhile) I mark and reward with another game of tug. After a bit I label the behavior with the "out/aus" command. Good old Michael Ellis technique


Thats how i taught mine. I would pull the tug close to my thigh/crotch area, hold it tight and motionless give the command once, as soon as he would let go, (sometimes took almost 2 min) i would give the command again and mark with yes then immediately give the tug back as a reward. Play tug for a while and repeat. This worked on a dog that has the most ball drive i have ever seen.


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## rick smith

outing a ball is not as easy as outing a tug ... for obvious reasons 

have there been techniques given for outing a ball, which is what the OP is using ? can you freeze the action and immobilize a ball ? pretty damn hard ... with a rope on it ? even harder 
- why i gave up balls as rewards and stick to them as hunt/retrieve items

that's why i thought this thread would get interesting .. most responses have been suggested by using tugs for a foundation and make the assumption it will transfer back to outing a ball

maybe i'm not following the thought process correctly

- if i read it correctly, the OP was referring to a BALL, and when it was given as a reward....correct ?
- if you are using a ball reward, i don't see the big need to "out" it, which is what i thought Andreas was referring to...similar to the way you slip a sleeve and let the dog have it and prance around with it....that is not a part of teaching an out.... doing it that way i guess you could wait til the reward has lost its value and take it away without much conflict, and start using an out word in the process .... but i still don't look at that technique as actually teaching an out

....which is why i was curious what other kinds of "outs" the OP had already taught his psd


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## Howard Knauf

Steve Burger said:


> 1. Don't use a ball.
> 2. reward with a tug.
> 3. teach the out with the tug
> 4. Take the tug to the ground, make it dead.
> 5. If the dog outs at the point, then give out command.
> 6. Praise
> 7. re-activate tug (if for training a bark and hold for future like in IPO then make him bark to activate tug).
> 8. If the dog does not out on number 4, then pull the leash with attached pinch collar toward the tug, with your foot on the dead tug on the ground. At this point when the dog DOES let go go to #5.
> 
> The problem right now is you are instilling a battle between you and the dog over the ball. Using another ball does not solve the problem of the dog has to out on your command, not because there is something new and shiny.
> 
> BTW the best thing to do is to teach the above series when the dog is a puppy before it becomes a problem.


 I had a similar problem with a dog I got from another handler. I used a tug and took away the game and confrontation like stated above. I'd reward the dog, call him to me, kneel on the ground and tell him to out. Once he dropped the tug I'd hit it with my hand and let him grab it. after a few times I'd pick it up. From there I'd take it at different intervals. Many times I'd let him have it while it was still in my hand. If he let go on command I'd let him have it again. If he didn't let go I would let go myself so as not to satisfy him. Always ended on a good note. Later I'd tell him to out while I was standing. I'd do the same thing but I'd kick the tug instead. I was in a drug school at the time so I had plenty of time to work on the problem.


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## George Henson IV

In response to all the methods and questions...I am currently in basic handler training working a detection/patrol dog. His drive is awesome....on lead he digs with his front paws nose to the ground. I use the ball to reward his odor detection....why would I take it away...because we do several hides in one sitting (4-5 hides per exercise). 

It's really screwing me up because I'm trying to learn everything else and all I can think about is....great, I'm going to reward him for finding and alerting on odor...give him the ball...have a minutes long struggle with him to get it back (which is physically tiring) and then have to go to the next hide.

Then once he does "out" the ball I have to beat him to it with him trying to get to it before me. I know it takes repetition to get it right but we've been doing this same thing for a week and I've yet to see any improvement with this particular issue. He has insane ball drive.


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## Thomas Barriano

It's going to be hard to get a good out from a dog "with insane ball drive" is you're not willing to consider other options. Have you even tried a tug or a Kong (on a rope would be easier to control and interact with)


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## rick smith

sorry to say this but it probably would have been a good idea to teach the "ball out" a long time ago, but you aren't the first and won't be the last to have it grow into a "bit"of a problem

anyway, please read on and see if any of this makes sense or might be worth trying
(it was already drafted, so some may seem redundant)

this post started about balls being used vice starting with the tug as a foundation, or switching back to tugs when the ball outing becomes a problem
....and i don't remember the OP saying anything about how he has used tugs for any part of the psd training, so i'm still going on a lot of ASSumptions 

but re: the BALL ....
more self satisfying to the dog since it is the chewing that is giving the dog satisfaction and it does not need to be "kept alive" in the same sense as a tug
....but that also depends on the technique you use when you first use a ball.
IF
the dog has been conditioned early on to go ape shit when you give the ball, any outing with it will be harder to do later, and i suspect that is where the OP is right now, plus i am also assuming he will keep the ball as the primary reward and be worried anything less might diminish the over the top drive he wants to maintain, etc

IF
you use a ball on a thick rope you CAN tug with it a bit, you just can't take the life out of it very easily, and if you have a possessive K9, it probably won't care if you leave and won't bring it to you for another go around 

or IF
you use it more in a toss and retrieve mode the dog can learn to enjoy the chase to get it and bring it back and DROP it, etc., but this doesn't always come naturally to a possessive dog

or IF
you do some foundation OUT of drive.....dog is in a sit or down and you just calmly hand it to the dog but not turn loose of it, you can condition the dog to give it back and then you toss it to reward and "ramp up" the drive. this foundation CAN be used to condition an out later with the ball, when the dog IS in drive

make any sense ?
i know there are lots of other ways

and i still feel the fact this is a psd and not a sport dog has some bearing on the learning curve regarding the out in general, since much more emphasis is usually placed on learning the "in" rather than the "out" //lol//

...and you haven't said anything about any type of out in any other situation, and if you subscribe to the "out means out" theory it might be relevant

just my 02yen and probably worth even less


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## George Henson IV

rick smith said:


> sorry to say this but it probably would have been a good idea to teach the "ball out" a long time ago, but you aren't the first and won't be the last to have it grow into a "bit"of a problem
> 
> anyway, please read on and see if any of this makes sense or might be worth trying
> (it was already drafted, so some may seem redundant)
> 
> this post started about balls being used vice starting with the tug as a foundation, or switching back to tugs when the ball outing becomes a problem
> ....and i don't remember the OP saying anything about how he has used tugs for any part of the psd training, so i'm still going on a lot of ASSumptions
> 
> but re: the BALL ....
> more self satisfying to the dog since it is the chewing that is giving the dog satisfaction and it does not need to be "kept alive" in the same sense as a tug
> ....but that also depends on the technique you use when you first use a ball.
> IF
> the dog has been conditioned early on to go ape shit when you give the ball, any outing with it will be harder to do later, and i suspect that is where the OP is right now, plus i am also assuming he will keep the ball as the primary reward and be worried anything less might diminish the over the top drive he wants to maintain, etc
> 
> IF
> you use a ball on a thick rope you CAN tug with it a bit, you just can't take the life out of it very easily, and if you have a possessive K9, it probably won't care if you leave and won't bring it to you for another go around
> 
> or IF
> you use it more in a toss and retrieve mode the dog can learn to enjoy the chase to get it and bring it back and DROP it, etc., but this doesn't always come naturally to a possessive dog
> 
> or IF
> you do some foundation OUT of drive.....dog is in a sit or down and you just calmly hand it to the dog but not turn loose of it, you can condition the dog to give it back and then you toss it to reward and "ramp up" the drive. this foundation CAN be used to condition an out later with the ball, when the dog IS in drive
> 
> make any sense ?
> i know there are lots of other ways
> 
> and i still feel the fact this is a psd and not a sport dog has some bearing on the learning curve regarding the out in general, since much more emphasis is usually placed on learning the "in" rather than the "out" //lol//
> 
> ...and you haven't said anything about any type of out in any other situation, and if you subscribe to the "out means out" theory it might be relevant
> 
> just my 02yen and probably worth even less


Make sense. I haven't used anything else because that's what the instructors are wanting us to use for reward and amping up his drive before going for detection. 

Fortunately he's only 16 months so my screw ups are easily fixable. It's just frustrating right now....but it's something that we can overcome and will only help to build our bond more. 

I may have forgotten this but this is my 3rd week for the dog...a week of bonding and then off to training...so I'm sure the more time we spend together the better and easier things will become. Thanks for all the replies..I really appreciate it.


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## Bob Scott

George Henson IV said:


> In response to all the methods and questions...I am currently in basic handler training working a detection/patrol dog. His drive is awesome....on lead he digs with his front paws nose to the ground. I use the ball to reward his odor detection....why would I take it away...because we do several hides in one sitting (4-5 hides per exercise).
> 
> It's really screwing me up because I'm trying to learn everything else and all I can think about is....great, I'm going to reward him for finding and alerting on odor...give him the ball...have a minutes long struggle with him to get it back (which is physically tiring) and then have to go to the next hide.
> 
> Then once he does "out" the ball I have to beat him to it with him trying to get to it before me. I know it takes repetition to get it right but we've been doing this same thing for a week and I've yet to see any improvement with this particular issue. He has insane ball drive.



Why not reward with a game of tug. That interaction between you and the dog keeps you a part of the reward. One he has the ball your value goes down because he has the reward.
Just teach the out on the tug using another bite as a reward.


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## George Henson IV

Bob Scott said:


> Why not reward with a game of tug. That interaction between you and the dog keeps you a part of the reward. One he has the ball your value goes down because he has the reward.
> Just teach the out on the tug using another bite as a reward.


I'll give it a shot....but after seeing his posseviness with the ball I imagine I will come to the same issue with a tug.


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## Bob Scott

George Henson IV said:


> I'll give it a shot....but after seeing his posseviness with the ball I imagine I will come to the same issue with a tug.



Quite possible but the ball is gone once he has it. The tug is just a PART of the reward that your involved in. 
At the Schutzhund club I belonged to there was a dog brought to the club that would not out. Pinch, e-collar, choked, beat, yadda yadda. 
Doing noothing more then just locking up the TD stood there for 20 mins the first time. No commands, no fight, nothing but lock up. 
When the dog finally let go the TD rewarded the dog with another bite. It took less and less time and within 3-4 weeks the dog had a clean out. The dog figured out simply enough that the bite was the reward. He'd still fight like a dog possessed but his out was clean. 
The dog was under a new handler (not at this club) after that and the outs got dirty again simply because the new handler went back to trying to force the dog to out. 
Why pick a fight with a dog that loves to fight?! :wink:


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## George Henson IV

Bob Scott said:


> Why pick a fight with a dog that loves to fight?! :wink:


So true. When it comes to patrol work (tracking, area searching, things that end in a bit) I'm sure he will do great. We just aren't to that point yet.


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## Jennifer Coulter

George Henson IV said:


> In response to all the methods and questions...I am currently in basic handler training working a detection/patrol dog. His drive is awesome....on lead he digs with his front paws nose to the ground. I use the ball to reward his odor detection....why would I take it away...because we do several hides in one sitting (4-5 hides per exercise).
> 
> It's really screwing me up because I'm trying to learn everything else and all I can think about is....great, I'm going to reward him for finding and alerting on odor...give him the ball...have a minutes long struggle with him to get it back (which is physically tiring) and then have to go to the next hide.
> 
> Then once he does "out" the ball I have to beat him to it with him trying to get to it before me. I know it takes repetition to get it right but we've been doing this same thing for a week and I've yet to see any improvement with this particular issue. He has insane ball drive.


You need two things right now.

1. Some kind of interm solution that allows you to keep on with your training while you have an out problem. Lets just call this more of damage control, ie, trying not make the problem worse while you are doing your detection work.

2. You need to work on the "out" OUTSIDE of detection training. Where your only goal is working on the out. Not tandem goals of training detection skills and training an "out" at the same time. It will not be helpful for either skill to be working them both at the same time during search drills at this point.

So...back to number 1. Forgive me if this is already what you are doing!!!! Some interm solution that helps you not make the problem worse while you are doing your detection training. A "management strategy" if you will. Maybe even something that helps towards your end goal a little.

Are you using a straight ball...or a ball on a rope? Is any part of your reward tug related? Are you searching on lead, or off lead? What kind of collar is the dog wearing? Can it be wearing a harness?

I would try to search the dog on a long line or drag a leash. I would try to use a ball on a rope vs just a ball. After I throw the ball on a rope for the reward, let the dog have a moment to prance/posess, you praise and pick up end of leash. try to move back (not reaching into dog) and encourage the dog to you. Pick up the string and do little tug, one or two sec only, let go of the toy, back up (holding leash) encourage dog to come to you for more tug with ball, tug tug, let go, back up. The goal here is to get a little more interactive and vary the amount of times you tug and back up with each search. Right now he probably thinks when you get near him he is going to have to fight to keep the ball.

At some point point you have to get it back now and he doesn't know how to out. But you have the leash, and hopefully can draw him in for the little mini fight/tug/let go/back up sessions. At one of them when you are tugging, let go of the ball on rope in his mouth so he has it. Now you are going to have to lift him off. If you can make this happen by holding his feet of the ground in a harness, this would be prefereable, but sounds like it may be past that. This will take longer than a collar lift off, but may build less drive for the object. If not, lift him off by his collar...but DON"T touch the toy while you do it. Be super calm, the reward is over now. Not sure how big he is, or how much ob he has (going to assume not much), but find the calmest way possible to slowly and calmly get the toy from the ground and put it wherever you put it. Try to avoid any fast scramble, snatch away of the toy after the lift off. Maybe you have a helper calmly pick it up as you calmly put the dog down (who is on a leash). Maybe you ask the dog to sit as you put him down and calmly pick it up at the same time...what ever you can make work. Maybe you have to keep his feet off the ground while you slowly pick up the toy. Repeat for second find and so on.

Number 2. Start working on this outside of searching where you don't have to worry about finding stuff. Try using a small tug as suggested. Dog is on long line or six foot line. Tug for one or two seconds..super short, let go of tug, back up, encourage dog to you for one or two more sec of super short tugging.

Then freeze and lock the tug up with your hands at your knees as someone suggested. If the dog is pulling hard away from you and making his own fun trying to drag you around, step on the leash to avoid him being able to do that (kind of a cheating step that can be helpful). Wait. You might have to wait a long time. As soon as the dog outs, tell him to "get it" or use your marker if you do that kind of training. Move the toy away from him just after your command/mark. Tug for one or two sec. Freeze up and repeat.

Try not to be "pulling back " on the toy when waiting for the dog to out. The more pressure you can take off it the better. Sometimes doing a big tug movement and then taking all the pressure off (almost pushing toy back at them while you step on leash) can help. Sometimes not. Depends on dog.

Eventually you will expect the dog to out for longer and longer before you say he can get it again. Then eventually you get to move the toy around a bit before he can bite it again. Then you pretend to put it in your pocket, and get it out again and start playing again...

Remember...the dog has practiced this possession while you inadvertantly built drive for the object for a long time. This is going to take lots of short sessions outside of searching to learn. If he really starts to like the interactive tug game, and is starting to get some "outs" and re-engaging, you might want to move that tug into your search reward for a bit. (dog has to love it for it to be your search reward).

Then you can take your ball on a rope OUTSIDE of the search work and practice the outs with that in the same kind of game format at home. Once you get something manageable at home, you can bring the ball back into the search work again. In the end in your detection work your reward will eventually be made up of a quick bursts of tug, outs and rebites, varying in length and intensity. If you just out him and take it everytime in practice searching, he might not want to out or bring it back.

After your dog really understands the "out" well from your postitive game at home, you can consider using actual corrections with a prong or ecollar (not drive building hanging kind of stuff) to remind the dog to out if they don't comply. Corrections should be done first outside of searching after the dog is taught about the tool. Use an ecollar with help from someone that understands using ecollars on search dogs specifically if you go that route.

Okay, I feel bad if this is already stuff you are doing/trying or know about. If it is and you are not having success, maybe there is a trainer near you that is working with these types of "out" methods that could give you some one on one advice in how to make work best for your dog. Maybe you could post some video?


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## Elaine Matthys

I totally feel your pain. My little demon spawn is a super possessive dog that sees no need to give up his ball - ever. No amount of standing there with the rope loose, collar correction, or choking him out, has any effect. I can get him to drop it if I flank him while picking up his front end by the collar at the same time. I tried two ball, which he will do, but I'm not anywhere near fast enough to get both balls away from him at the same time and he will do his level best to mug me to get it back. He is almost completely uninterested in tugs.

I now have to use an ecollar on him on low constant level to get him to drop it. It does take the fight out of it, which I am so thrilled about. He learned to out the sleeve with an ecollar, but does need an occasional reminder that he does need to out when told.


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## Alice Bezemer

George Henson IV said:


> I have a super high ball drive Mal. He's awesome but when I reward him with the ball it becomes a fight to get it back. When I go to load him up or get him near the truck and say "Los" he will let me grab it out of his mouth with very very little fight. How do I overcome this obstacle without destroying his drive? I've used corrections on the choke consistently but he would rather have the ball than oxygen. I'm open to suggestions as I just want to find a good route that will work consistently for him.
> 
> Thanks for the help.


Stop asking the dog to out and tell him to out instead. While you are walking around thinking about how demanding an out MIGHT destroy his drive (which it won't) your dog is pretty much doing as he likes and not giving back the ball. 

People really need to stop making excuses for their dogs behaviour and their own lack of confidence. Tell your dog what you want from it and you will get it, ask it from your dog and he will take his sweet time thinking about your question and probably not give you what you want.

Don't blame the dog for not being consistant yourself. Dog is not the problem here, you are.


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## brad robert

Alice as usual makes a lot of sense here because i have never seen a dog of decent age have its drive ruined by something like this i think its a wifes tale(or a soft dog)..i have a dog that was the same type possesive pita and still is and still has high drive but after a long time just trying to swap i just got fed up and took the ball from her anyway i had to as long as i won and if she got stung in the process tough!! i would just force her lips over her teeth as i went to take it and she would bite into her own lips now i go up she still doesnt want to give it but when i take it from her no fight and the game starts again.


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## Geoff Empey

While in theory Alice's point could work, but in reality a dog like this that already has a super high reward in its mouth. That and being dominant and possessive there is no amount of extra oomph from the voice or posture from the handler that I think will change the dog's attitude over his ball. Even heavy compulsion would not fix the issue, sure the OP may get the ball back but the issue would still be there. 

I have a dog like this and you have to methodical and patient. I'm with Jennifer train it separately from the detection course you are on if you can. 

Keep the dog on lead so you have some sort of way to control the dog so you can interact and play with the dog. With the dog being on lead you DO NOT let the dog be independent after and during the reward process, as you have to be part of the reward and the interaction. He doesn't give a crap about you only his ball, so you make your self part of that. The only way is to control that environment is with a line and the reward tool you are using. 

I really never use a ball by itself in early training, especially without a way to physically keep the dog with me by the lead and by interacting with the toy. I will use a ball on a *rope*, or a kong on a *rope*, a two handled tug or flat leather something that fits into your training vest but it needs to be something you can control and interact with the dog while working/rewarding him. 

There is many great suggestions and posts here throughout the thread.


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## George Henson IV

All of you guys are right. And the only time I let him off lead is in my backyard and I don't use the ball because I want him to feel the home is a place he can relax and be a dog. Inside the house I keep him on lead because I don't trust him yet. 

Again thanks for all the different methods and I'm going to try switching up to a tug today to see how that goes. 

Alice, you are right, when I ask for something I take a submissive position between us. I have found myself beggining to get impatient and frustrated because I have consistenly worked him 2 weeks on giving the ball back but it is like I start at square 1 every time. I have to stop because I know he can feel my frustration and it will show in our work. I will get over this hump, just my first dog of this caliber so I'm trying to seek out different methods to see if I can find something that he understands. 

And yes, I do know that I am the dumb end of the leash.


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## Guy Williams

George,

I would would give serious consideration to the methods mentioned which 'teach' the dog to out and make him 'want' to out voluntarily as they are the methods which will tackle the issue at root cause.

Methods which involve confrontation may win you the battle but there is a good chance you will lose the war. Not only will they not change the dogs attitude but they tend to make it worse. Remember, you will be training this dog to deal with threats by aggression so it would be unwise to adopt a method that could have your actions perceived as threatening.


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## Alice Bezemer

George Henson IV said:


> All of you guys are right. And the only time I let him off lead is in my backyard and I don't use the ball because I want him to feel the home is a place he can relax and be a dog. Inside the house I keep him on lead because I don't trust him yet.
> 
> Again thanks for all the different methods and I'm going to try switching up to a tug today to see how that goes.
> 
> Alice, you are right, when I ask for something I take a submissive position between us. I have found myself beggining to get impatient and frustrated because I have consistenly worked him 2 weeks on giving the ball back but it is like I start at square 1 every time. I have to stop because I know he can feel my frustration and it will show in our work. I will get over this hump, *just my first dog of this caliber so I'm trying to seek out different methods to see if I can find something that he understands. *
> 
> And yes, I do know that I am the dumb end of the leash.


That, right there... That says it all. You are seeking different methods and trying them out in a timeframe of 2 weeks. First of, it takes patience to teach a dog a new trick. Secondly, you need to adopt a plan that you feel will work and then stick with it a lot longer then 2 weeks.

I do not believe you are the dumb end of the leash at all! Just the impatient end of the leash. 

I see people saying you should trade toys with him or maybe wait him out but the problem is that you are still asking the dog for compliance and you are giving him options to say NO... Stop giving him those options to begin with, he has NO say in whatever you do. You say, he does, end of story! Geoff mentioned how extra OOMPH in your voice or posturing will not help you and I agree, it will not help one damn bit because that is still asking him to do what you say... But who said you had to use voice or posture only? I assume you have feet? Hands? Kick his ass, slap his fat stubborn head! It doesn't have to be hard or vicious, it shouldn't be done in anger but its a way to show him that you mean what you say and that you will enforce what you want from him. I'm not advocating abuse here but telling you that you have more options then to simply wait until the dog is ready to finally give into your demands.


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## George Henson IV

Alice Bezemer said:


> That, right there... That says it all. You are seeking different methods and trying them out in a timeframe of 2 weeks. First of, it takes patience to teach a dog a new trick. Secondly, you need to adopt a plan that you feel will work and then stick with it a lot longer then 2 weeks.
> 
> I do not believe you are the dumb end of the leash at all! Just the impatient end of the leash.
> 
> I see people saying you should trade toys with him or maybe wait him out but the problem is that you are still asking the dog for compliance and you are giving him options to say NO... Stop giving him those options to begin with, he has NO say in whatever you do. You say, he does, end of story! Geoff mentioned how extra OOMPH in your voice or posturing will not help you and I agree, it will not help one damn bit because that is still asking him to do what you say... But who said you had to use voice or posture only? I assume you have feet? Hands? Kick his ass, slap his fat stubborn head! It doesn't have to be hard or vicious, it shouldn't be done in anger but its a way to show him that you mean what you say and that you will enforce what you want from him. I'm not advocating abuse here but telling you that you have more options then to simply wait until the dog is ready to finally give into your demands.


Makes perfect sense. And the impatient part is absolutely correct. I had a method I was using for a little over a week and every day it was like starting from square one. I got so frustrated yesterday I shut down and put him up for the day. I ran it out and got rid of that and started new today....it was a lot better and after clearing my head I can see progress being made.


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## rick smith

what was your method that didn't work and what is the new method that is working better ?


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## Larry Krohn

George Henson IV said:


> I have a super high ball drive Mal. He's awesome but when I reward him with the ball it becomes a fight to get it back. When I go to load him up or get him near the truck and say "Los" he will let me grab it out of his mouth with very very little fight. How do I overcome this obstacle without destroying his drive? I've used corrections on the choke consistently but he would rather have the ball than oxygen. I'm open to suggestions as I just want to find a good route that will work consistently for him.
> 
> Thanks for the help.


I teach my dogs to out with a tug. Recently I was asked to help another trainer with a Dobey she was working with that had aggression issues and would not give up a ball. I taught the out during this session with this trainer and she filmed it

http://youtu.be/H6PAtmvX6J8


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## George Henson IV

Larry Krohn said:


> I teach my dogs to out with a tug. Recently I was asked to help another trainer with a Dobey she was working with that had aggression issues and would not give up a ball. I taught the out during this session with this trainer and she filmed it
> 
> http://youtu.be/H6PAtmvX6J8


That worked great for him but my dog will not let go of the ball he currently has and when another ball is in play he just hovers and switches them out constantly. I wish it was this easy.


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## Elaine Matthys

George Henson IV said:


> That worked great for him but my dog will not let go of the ball he currently has and when another ball is in play he just hovers and switches them out constantly. I wish it was this easy.


 
I agree, that dog has very low ball drive. My mutt would never voluntarily spit out the ball like that.

I still like using an ecollar on a low constant level teach the out. I'm not fighting with my dog and he understands the correction.


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## Alice Bezemer

George Henson IV said:


> Makes perfect sense. And the impatient part is absolutely correct. I had a method I was using for a little over a week and every day it was like starting from square one. I got so frustrated yesterday I shut down and put him up for the day. I ran it out and got rid of that and started new today....it was a lot better and after clearing my head I can see progress being made.


I'm curious, think you can get a video of you and your dog? Want to see him when he has to out for you. I have a sneaky suspicion that your dog is pretty much telling you to go F yourself. Try and get a video of the out if you can :wink:


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## James Downey

Alice Bezemer said:


> I'm curious, think you can get a video of you and your dog? Want to see him when he has to out for you. I have a sneaky suspicion that your dog is pretty much telling you to go F yourself. Try and get a video of the out if you can :wink:


Here's where it gets dangerous for the dog.


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## Larry Krohn

George Henson IV said:


> That worked great for him but my dog will not let go of the ball he currently has and when another ball is in play he just hovers and switches them out constantly. I wish it was this easy.


He shouldn't have the option to hover and switch, this is where good leash work is very important. My young mal is as high drive as it comes and incredibly possessive of everything but when you provide the right interaction the chase should be more exciting than the possession. The dog in the video is not as intense as most of our mals but he had never given the ball up before this. I agree seeing a video with you and your dog will help but also seeing some video if you working your dog in other areas will help also


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## George Henson IV

Alice Bezemer said:


> I'm curious, think you can get a video of you and your dog? Want to see him when he has to out for you. I have a sneaky suspicion that your dog is pretty much telling you to go F yourself. Try and get a video of the out if you can :wink:


You are absolutely correct. That is what he is telling me. I've only had him for 2 weeks but he's finally really starting to bond with me so I imagine the more we bond the easier things will become.


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## John Vanek

Thomas Barriano said:


> I like to keep it simple with one tug. When I want my dog to out I immobilize the tug so there is no reward. When the dog releases on his own (you may need to wait for awhile) I mark and reward with another game of tug. After a bit I label the behavior with the "out/aus" command. Good old Michael Ellis technique


Why is this suggestion being glossed over? This worked VERY WELL for my dog, and now he LOVES outing, because he KNOWS he gets the toy back.


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## Bob Scott

John Vanek said:


> Why is this suggestion being glossed over? This worked VERY WELL for my dog, and now he LOVES outing, because he KNOWS he gets the toy back.




Simply put, if a person has a successful method that works for them then few feel the need or desire to try anything else. Nothing wrong with that but I personally enjoy adding new methods to my training tool box. ALL methods have good and bad points. You just have to determine what works for you and your particular dog but keep the alternatives in the back of your mind for the next dog.


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## Jeremy Friedman

John Vanek said:


> Why is this suggestion being glossed over? This worked VERY WELL for my dog, and now he LOVES outing, because he KNOWS he gets the toy back.


This is how I introduce the out. In my experience, once a decoy/pressure is added, this type of out begins to fail. I still do it when I play with my dog to try and re-enforce the "game" but at some point the dog needs to learn it has to out when I say so.


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## Alice Bezemer

John Vanek said:


> Why is this suggestion being glossed over? This worked VERY WELL for my dog, and now he LOVES outing, because he KNOWS he gets the toy back.


This option, tho it might work well for you might not work in every instance.

This way of outing is giving the dog an option to choose if he wants to out or not. What if the toy isn't there... would he still out as required? An out should be something you can count on, not something that is left to the whims of a dogs mind because he has choices to pick from.


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## rick smith

you can teach outs with a sleeve or wedge, on or off a helper as well as with a hand held "toy"

starting with a hand held tug is only ONE way to build the behavior

the goal is NOT to make the dog thinks it gets a TOY for outing

the object is that the dog will know it can get another bite and the fun/fight is not over just because it has to out ... and the "play" part is also just the very beginning of out training, unless you want the dog to experience and desensitize to pressure right from the get go 
- should be paired with a good guard behavior too so the dog does not drop in drive (sorry to use that "d" word)

and it might also depend on what the dog is being trained for. there are people who do NOT want their dog to out unless it is lifted off

bottom line .....different strokes


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## rick smith

you can teach outs with a sleeve or wedge, on or off a helper as well as with a hand held "toy"

starting with a hand held tug is only ONE way to build the behavior

the goal is NOT to condition the dog to think it gets a TOY for outing ](*,)
... or maybe you are forgetting about FADING the reward and moving from continuous, fixed variable, random etc etc ?.....a BASIC component of OC 

the goal is that the dog will learn it can get another bite and the fun/fight is not over just because it has to out ... and the "play" part is also just the very beginning of out training, unless you want the dog to experience and desensitize to pressure right from the get go 
- should probably also be paired with a good guard behavior too so the dog does not drop in drive ... sorry to use that "d" word

and it might also depend on what the dog is being trained for. there are people who do NOT want their dog to out unless it is lifted off

bottom line .....different strokes


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## Bob Scott

"This way of outing is giving the dog an option to choose if he wants to out or not. What if the toy isn't there... would he still out as required? An out should be something you can count on, not something that is left to the whims of a dogs mind because he has choices to pick from. :wink:"

What if the dog didn't have a pinch, e-collar, leash on? Would he still out as required? 
It all depends on how well the dog and trainer work together. Clarity in training!
Convincing a dog that a correction can come with no leash or control on a trial field is no different then convincing a dog that compliance will get a reward when none is on the field *EXCEPT* with *BITE * *WORK* the reward *IS* on the field. It's the bite he's rewarded with.
You can build a time between a behavior and a reward much easier then you can build time between a correction and a behavior. The dog can learn the reward will come after they come off the field. Correcting a dog after they come off the field is non productive. 
Mistimed reward only means the dog gets a freeby. Mistimed correction means the dog gives you a "WTF was that for"? 
Again, the trainer and the dog are more important then the method.Both can work for similar yet different reasons. For most the ideal situation is a balance between both but if the dog has a high value reward *on the field *such as getting a bite then why would it refuse compliance to the point of needing a correction? The out can easily be a means to another bite. Clarity in training! :wink:


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## Gillian Schuler

I think I agree with you Bob.

All my dogs outed because they had to, not because they were rewarded.

OUT was out or else!

My dog was in a clinch with another dog - I used "out" and he let go.

Dogs that out well are not necessarily dogs that do not engage the helper well.


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## Christopher Smith

Gillian Schuler said:


> I think I agree with you Bob.
> 
> All my dogs outed because they had to, not because they were rewarded.
> 
> OUT was out or else!
> 
> My dog was in a clinch with another dog - I used "out" and he let go.
> 
> Dogs that out well are not necessarily dogs that do not engage the helper well.


But when the dog feels that you can't "or else" him then he looses his only motivation to out. 

IME, the dogs that have the best outing are those that are motivated by both reward and punishment. Just like every other aspect of dog training.

Original Poster, have you ever tried to trade the dog for a piece of food?

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## Gillian Schuler

Christopher Smith;.
Original Poster said:


> Sent from Petguide.com Free App[/COLOR]


 
I'm not the original poster but if I were that hungry I might have done!!


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## Lisa Brazeau

I could not agree more with Guy. Do you want a cooperative relationship with this dog? Then it will suit you to not try and out muscle him. You will lose, anyway. Use the teaching techniques that show the dog there's something in it for him. You will clean up the out (not over night, but sooner than you think if you commit), preserve the relationship, and you definitely won't ruin his drive. Choking him off the bite or correcting him off the bite will only harden the dog to you and your commands, and make you more of an adversary than a partner.


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## Lisa Brazeau

That is not to say that at some point this dog won't or shouldn't be corrected for not outing. But since you have introduced conflict, and things have gone awry, you need to be sure that the dog understands the command (in that context specifically) before I would fry that little turd with an ecollar.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

It always seems like PSDs are sooooo on the fast track. If possible, why not switch to rewarding with food. Next with he relationship aspect--NILIF [nothing in life is free]. After the dog was working well with marker training within NILIF, I'd start with some of the out exercises previously mentioned. 

T


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## Christopher Smith

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> It always seems like PSDs are sooooo on the fast track. If possible, why not switch to rewarding with food. Next with he relationship aspect--NILIF [nothing in life is free]. After the dog was working well with marker training within NILIF, I'd start with some of the out exercises previously mentioned.
> 
> T


Bingo!

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## Guy Williams

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> It always seems like PSDs are sooooo on the fast track. If possible, why not switch to rewarding with food. Next with he relationship aspect--NILIF [nothing in life is free]. After the dog was working well with marker training within NILIF, I'd start with some of the out exercises previously mentioned.
> 
> T


When money is plentiful I have 12 weeks. Times are hard and i currently have 8 weeks to teach:-
1.Heelwork including halting in the sit, stand and down. leaving the dog in position and recalling him. Normal and double pace.
2.Person search (building and external)
3. Chase and detain (running bite) and recall out from 10 yards, down and search, escort on lead
4. Chase and standoff
5. Emergency recall
6. Attack on handler
7. Tracking
8. Property search
9. Crowd control
10. Agility (hurdle,longjump,scale)
Plus ensuring the dogs remain dog neutral, bite equipment neutral, are environmentally sound and will bite overt sleeves, covert sleeves and are ready willing and able to bite for real!

That's why we are soooo on the fast track!!:-({|=


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Guy Williams said:


> When money is plentiful I have 12 weeks. Times are hard and i currently have 8 weeks to teach:-
> 1.Heelwork including halting in the sit, stand and down. leaving the dog in position and recalling him. Normal and double pace.
> 2.Person search (building and external)
> 3. Chase and detain (running bite) and recall out from 10 yards, down and search, escort on lead
> 4. Chase and standoff
> 5. Emergency recall
> 6. Attack on handler
> 7. Tracking
> 8. Property search
> 9. Crowd control
> 10. Agility (hurdle,longjump,scale)
> Plus ensuring the dogs remain dog neutral, bite equipment neutral, are environmentally sound and will bite overt sleeves, covert sleeves and are ready willing and able to bite for real!
> 
> That's why we are soooo on the fast track!!:-({|=


I know. David has described in the past that they have a 14 week program and I'm always shaking my head. Pretty impressive what's accomplished.

T


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## rick smith

that list would be a lot for anyone's plate !

so, are psd certifiers as nit picky and subjective as trial judges ??
ducking and running ......


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## Terrasita Cuffie

rick smith said:


> that list would be a lot for anyone's plate !
> 
> so, are psd certifiers as nit picky and subjective as trial judges ??
> ducking and running ......


Made me think about real work vs. trial training too. Rhemy is 2 and already the fix it chore dog but is he ready for trialing?--NO!

T


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## Guy Williams

rick smith said:


> that list would be a lot for anyone's plate !
> 
> so, are psd certifiers as nit picky and subjective as trial judges ??
> ducking and running ......


I don't have the energy to swing punches or chase people so no need to duck and run!!

Historically I think there was a lot of corner cutting. Now we try and get good foundations and just get as much done as we can. Pragmatism is the order of the day.


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## rick smith

Guy
i was kinda kidding but also kinda not kidding
i hold a K9 LEO to the same high standards i would for any other professional working dog team

i realize, funding is always tight ... i dealt with that in the navy for many years....that was one reason the Air Force had a better deal  .... they wanted the funding up front and would quickly turn down a miossion that didn't get the funding support they think they needed
...and the marine corps was in an even worse position than the navy
- so what kept them going ? the upper levels commanders who didn't have to do the work and get their hands dirty ](*,)

...but with that said, a "can do" attitude can get you killed, and i have seen that happen.
sometimes i get the impression that now that the demand for psd's has gone thru the roof, there are too many dogs being given the basics and them expected to somehow get "polished" on the street by handlers who may not have the level of training expertise required
- that is not a recipe i would support, and i just find it hard to believe a dog can be taken from scratch, give it a good start and go thru all the K9 skill sets it will need and turn it loose with only a handler
- someone has to draw a line in the sand, and if certifiers would be tougher, imo the overall performance would improve. 
- imo, they are the ones that need to draw the line and never certify a K9 that was not 100% reliable and safe in ALL areas and never let a dog or handler squeeze thru. for me that would include a LOT of scenarios that could NOT be pattern trained in advance by the handler, since that is EXACTLY the type of situation they will have to be able to handle when they get on the street

of course i have no first hand knowledge if this is a problem, and certainly hope it isn't


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## Geoff Empey

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I know. David has described in the past that they have a 14 week program and I'm always shaking my head. Pretty impressive what's accomplished.


Or not accomplished .. That's a pretty rough road to hoe to train all they do, even with an extensive 14 week now 8 week course.

"Trust your dog" Indeed!


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## David Winners

Geoff Empey said:


> Or not accomplished .. That's a pretty rough road to hoe to train all they do, even with an extensive 14 week now 8 week course.
> 
> "Trust your dog" Indeed!


My program, TEDD, are single purpose detection dogs. Most of the dogs have now deployed at least once for 12 months. The program is basically to teach the handlers and give the dog a chance to adjust to the new handler. It is a tough course, which is why there was a 60% drop out rate. Days start at 0500 and end at 1900 with homework for the handlers on their down time. No days off. I doubt many other programs are this intensive, as IME, civilians can't be forced into long days like soldiers.

IMHO, 8 weeks is barely long enough to evaluate, train, and certify a new single purpose handler. I don't see how this would be possible with a dual purpose dog, even if the dog was fully trained and experienced. The situation is compounded if the handler has never deployed and needs to learn the maneuver, communication, and situational awareness skill sets along with becoming a handler. There was never any hesitation to drop someone from the program if they showed that they were just not cut out for the job, or lacked the work ethic to succeed.

I can only speak from my perspective, which is military. Other working venues may be different. 

I don't know if your comment about trusting your dog was supposed to be sarcastic or not, so I won't respond to it. I do know that the program, though it is flawed and abbreviated, produces dogs that locate explosives in a safe manner, and save lives.

I know I could produce far superior teams if I could train all the dogs individually, work with each handler until they were competent at all handling and training tasks before placed with their dog, and take as much time as necessary to make them the best team they can be. I could probably train 10 teams a year, if I got to pick the handlers myself.

The thing is, would those 10 teams have greater impact than 300 teams that are just good enough? Exponentially NO is my opinion. We do the best we can with the situation we have. The true test of success is written in statistics, not opinions.

Not that I can share a lot of hard data, but going from 45 IED strikes a month to 4 is success in my book.

David Winners


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## rick smith

well said David
funny about mentioning the drop out rate
it's been my experience (navy only) that the higher the drop out rate, the better the "finished product" //lol//

wonder what the drop out rate is for psd handler courses ?
both for dogs and for the humans ...

i think the system is also "supply and demand" driven and should be considered when judging how effective the program is.
in most cases, when demand is low and supply is high, standards start getting raised
unfortunately when the opposite happens, and demand is high with lower supply, the standards ease up :-(
...not good but i guess it's reality

i think a dual purpose K9 is harder to train than a single purpose, and with the increased optempo and ied threat, TEDDS has definitely filled the gap. a specialist is always better at their specialty than a jack of all trades, and preferred whenever the funding is there

it appears the same trend is carrying over to civil PSD's as well, but i just don't feel comfortable having a patrol dog on public access streets with minimal skill sets and expecting it to improve with age unless their handler also has training skills....
- but it all depends on how difficult the certification process is, and i have no clue about that
- we have lots of K9 LEOS here; maybe they will cross the line a bit and add to the discussion and maybe even throw in some of their "out training" philosophy too


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## Geoff Empey

David Winners said:


> Not that I can share a lot of hard data, but going from 45 IED strikes a month to 4 is success in my book.


Sounds like progress and success to me! 



Rick Smith said:


> well said David funny about mentioning the drop out rate it's been my experience (navy only) that the higher the drop out rate, the better the "finished product" //lol//


As in anything that requires effort, the cream rises to the top.



Rick Smith said:


> wonder what the drop out rate is for psd handler courses ? both for dogs and for the humans ...


You'd have to wonder about that and knowing how hard David 's TEDD cert seems to be, if there is some sort uniform standards what constitutes as a wash out across the boards in all the jurisdictions, outside of the obvious. 

Like anything in life no K9 or handler for that matter is perfect.


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## Guy Williams

In the Uk it's not unusual for the dogs (patrol) to be on the streets by 18months old which is too young but it is generally accepted that young dogs need to be looked after. You then have a year to get the dog to the advanced standard which is probably where they ought to be before they hit the streets!

Handlers have to take a lot of responsibility for their own training and there are good and not so good handlers out there. 

Policing in the UK is a very different theatre to policing in the US or military where that approach would probably have disasterous consequences. the bottom line is if my dog doesn't perform I can hit 'em with my truncheon!!


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## Joby Becker

John Vanek said:


> Why is this suggestion being glossed over? This worked VERY WELL for my dog, and now he LOVES outing, because he KNOWS he gets the toy back.


this method will work for certain dogs for certain things. will not work for certain other dogs for certain other things.


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## David Winners

Joby Becker said:


> this method will work for certain dogs for certain things. will not work for certain other dogs for certain other things.


Joby, 

For that dog that there is nothing greater than the bite and the fight, how do you choose to teach the out?

David Winners


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## rick smith

i'm probably talking out my ass since i know very little about KNPV but i want to throw out this and let Alice/Dick/Saleena and others set me straight if my observation is all wrong.....
imo, KNPV has a rep for training hard dogs for LE with a lot of physical compulsion and less emphasis on the ball/tug reward system that other operant training systems use (think Ivan, Ellis, etc)

so, as this pertains to out training .....

i have seen lots of clips of KNPV training where the dog is slowly brought in under control and placed on the bite, rather than allowing the dog to run up and engage on its own. and Alice has also explained in a previous thread she often holds her pup on both sides of the neck. this assumes a lot of "hands on" training in other area ... literally 

if you allow a dog who likes to engage and fight from stimulated prey drive there won't be as much "hands on" when it engages .... and the command to out will be more verbal than physical ... if the dog doesn't "get it", you will probably then need more physical. meaning try and freeze action and make that less satisfying and allow the dog to drop a bit in (fight) drive and want to release what's in its mouth .... if you have not conditioned your dog by holding its neck when it is engaging, it may see any physical as conflict or competition for what it is gripping and now you have created an unintentional problem

otoh, if the dog has been conditioned to be comfortable and keep it's fight drive up while being firmly held with both hands, it will be less likely to be conflicted when it is also firmly lifted OFF the bite with hands firmly on its neck .... when this is done frequently, the verbal command can than be added and the physical lift off can be faded without conflict

what i'm trying to say is a more physically controlled engagement will make a physical lift off not a problem and it won't be hard to eventually do it with only a verbal command.....because a GOOD BOND has been established between handler and dog (which people rarely talk about unless it's lacking)

than again, i've never seen a KNPV training clip about teaching the out, and it's always been hard for me to get an image of just what "telling it, not asking it" means

i don't know about others, but actually seeing the KNPV method of teaching an out would be helpful to me


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## Jon Harris

George can I ask what you are training for? Is this detection only or is a dual purpose dog. LEO, sport, military or contractor like me.

In the classes/schools/get to know your dog/ what ever you want to call it I ve been having to work with as the dog I have is assigned and not mine. I do detection work in Iraq right now with an EDD ( explosive detection) and last contract it was narcotics in Afghanistan. That was a dual purpose dog.

In the detection class where we got married to the dog our time-frame was very short. Too short IMHO but it was what it was.

Getting to the original question and I have the same type of dog. very high toy drive, very possessive of it and hard to get the out ( at first) 
My training was a combination of compulsion ( heavy on the compulsion at first) and then a reward to show the game was not necessarily over or the toy was not going to be gone forever. 
When I say compulsion i dont mean choking the dog out. That to me will make it harder and it becomes a stamina contest. Yes the dog will lose but hell he is unconscious How much can he learn then?

We use me as the handler and the trainer would assist for the beginning of this. To be honest the out training took about 5 mins at first and then it was just maintenance. In a class where you have little time to work on something for days because you are asked to move to the next thing you have to use something that works and works right then. Now others will disagree and I don't disagree with them ( if I had time) but in certain cases like mine you were very very rushed.

It went like this.
Handler with flat collar
Trainer with choke collar
Dog with reward

Tell dog to out or los or whatever you are using as long as it is consistent.
Tell dog again so he has a moment to comply
if no out then the handler holds the flat collar tight with the leash meaning the dog does not have a lot of slack and the trainer jerks the shit out of the choke making the dog drop the reward. It has to be fast and it will surprise the dog at first. He will drop the toy.
Good dog! Let him have the toy

repeat, give toy back
repeat , give toy back and walk him off

next time you need to out do it again exactly the same
It will take very little time for him to learn to drop the toy or get strongly corrected and that if he drops the toy he gets 1, the correction stopped and 2, he get praise and reward

you always give the dog a chance to comply. If no los correct

Yes this is a lot of compulsion AT FIRST but it slacks off quickly, like in one or two sessions and then it is reward and praise driven. It the dogs starts to get sloppy/slow/inconsistent, it is a very easy thing to remind him.
You will only need the trainers help once or twice then you will hold the leash with the choke chain and apply the needed correction yourself
This may not be the best way. It may not be the approved current thinking way, but in a time crunch and a way that has worked for me and every other dog at our company, quickly and consistently.

It teaches out is out

if you move to a bite scenario the out works the same way
tugs, balls, kongs, it teaches the dog to drop what they have when you say out or get corrected. and if they drop on command they get rewarded. They catch on really quick


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## jim stevens

David Baker said:


> Thats how i taught mine. I would pull the tug close to my thigh/crotch area, hold it tight and motionless give the command once, as soon as he would let go, (sometimes took almost 2 min) i would give the command again and mark with yes then immediately give the tug back as a reward. Play tug for a while and repeat. This worked on a dog that has the most ball drive i have ever seen.


I have one that is very possessive. Two minutes would have been a quick out for her, I tried this for ten minutes, she didn't care. I tried two balls, she would pick one up, hold the other between her legs and bite if you tried to get it. If I tried two tugs, she would re-bite quickly, occasionally getting a bit of my hands. Putting it dead on the ground, and using a pinch collar worked, and she now has a perfect out on a bite, tug, whatever. Balls are definitely the hardest, she wouldn't want to give it up, so I would give her the command, followed by immediate stim with the ecollar, she knew what the command mean, just didn't want to give it up. That fixed it. I'm pretty much a beginner, so I had to learn as I go along, but that is what worked for me. I agree that if you try to lift off, or make it a fight, that's something they enjoy, they think that's part of the 'game'.


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## Max Orsi

I would suggest using the services of a reputable trainer.T

There are no excuses, all dogs can lear how to "out" if the trainer is capable of communicating with the dog!!!

Happy training

Max


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## Max Orsi

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f11/training-out-without-losing-interest-10245/

here is a good discussion on the subject from a few years back!!!

Is always nice to have a constructive discussion!

Happy training

Max


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## Howard Gaines III

Train it, MARK it, reward it...
I did my "out" in a few minutes using marker training and my GSD has NOT faulted once since then!
Understanding each critter is different.v:razz::-$


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## Bob Scott

David Winners said:


> Joby,
> 
> For that dog that there is nothing greater than the bite and the fight, how do you choose to teach the out?
> 
> David Winners



David, I'm not answering for Joby because we may have different thoughts on the question.
If there is nothing greater then the bite and fight then why not make that the reward? 
The club I belonged to used the bite for everything from heeling for a bite to outing for another bite.


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## David Winners

Bob Scott said:


> David, I'm not answering for Joby because we may have different thoughts on the question.
> If there is nothing greater then the bite and fight then why not make that the reward?
> The club I belonged to used the bite for everything from heeling for a bite to outing for another bite.


I understand and appreciate the bite as a primary reward. I am curious about how you establish the pattern in the dog if outing for a re-bite. Once the dog has understanding of the process, it would be simple. I'm asking about the initial training of the dog to understand that he will get that re-bite if he outs.

David Winners


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## rick smith

David.....my way is to NOT allow the dog to get dialed in on the bite when you are teaching the out...quick bite, quick out and quick rebite
THEN extend the fight grip/duration as the outs become crisp
most people i've known do exactly the opposite. they are so obsessed with getting the dog to hang on that they make it that much harder to out without any conflict. 

just my opinion of course, but i think they feel quick outs will destroy the dog's motivation to remain committed to the grip

then there are those who don't care to teach a verbal out and will get the dog off using sticks, gag reflexes, etc., and maybe add some verbal later. handy to know if you frequently have to break up dog fights 

it's harder for working on an out for a strong dog that has been taught via the alligator method, but can still be done if you work the dog at lower levels to start and have a half ass decent bond with the dog

that's my .02 and prob worth just that


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## rick smith

my philosophy tries to follow the "dog can only focus on being taught one thing at a time" principle and that the grip and out are on opposite sides of a dog brain, motivationally speaking


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## Bob Scott

David Winners said:


> I understand and appreciate the bite as a primary reward. I am curious about how you establish the pattern in the dog if outing for a re-bite. Once the dog has understanding of the process, it would be simple. I'm asking about the initial training of the dog to understand that he will get that re-bite if he outs.
> 
> David Winners


Get the out solid on tugs, etc before the out on a decoy/helper. 
Some sport trainers will use the lock up when starting on a decoy. Not sure how that would work with a street/military K9 because you don't want the dog to stop until you say so. The bad guy certainly isn't going to "lock up" for you. 
Possible start with a lockup then build to a lot of movement. Gust guessing/thinking on that one.


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## Jon Harris

that will work but the original poster in a student in a detection class that is time driven and he is having trouble getting the ball back so he can go to the next problem.

That is exactly the type of class i had to go through. thats why i listed my solution so he can complete the class. Here it is again


In the classes/schools/get to know your dog/ what ever you want to call it I ve been having to work with as the dog I have is assigned and not mine. I do detection work in Iraq right now with an EDD ( explosive detection) and last contract it was narcotics in Afghanistan. That was a dual purpose dog.

In the detection class where we got married to the dog our time-frame was very short. Too short IMHO but it was what it was.

Getting to the original question and I have the same type of dog. very high toy drive, very possessive of it and hard to get the out ( at first) 
My training was a combination of compulsion ( heavy on the compulsion at first) and then a reward to show the game was not necessarily over or the toy was not going to be gone forever. 
When I say compulsion i dont mean choking the dog out. That to me will make it harder and it becomes a stamina contest. Yes the dog will lose but hell he is unconscious How much can he learn then?

We use me as the handler and the trainer would assist for the beginning of this. To be honest the out training took about 5 mins at first and then it was just maintenance. In a class where you have little time to work on something for days because you are asked to move to the next thing you have to use something that works and works right then. Now others will disagree and I don't disagree with them ( if I had time) but in certain cases like mine you were very very rushed.

It went like this.
Handler with flat collar
Trainer with choke collar
Dog with reward

Tell dog to out or los or whatever you are using as long as it is consistent.
Tell dog again so he has a moment to comply
if no out then the handler holds the flat collar tight with the leash meaning the dog does not have a lot of slack and the trainer jerks the shit out of the choke making the dog drop the reward. It has to be fast and it will surprise the dog at first. He will drop the toy.
Good dog! Let him have the toy

repeat, give toy back
repeat , give toy back and walk him off

next time you need to out do it again exactly the same
It will take very little time for him to learn to drop the toy or get strongly corrected and that if he drops the toy he gets 1, the correction stopped and 2, he get praise and reward

you always give the dog a chance to comply. If no los correct

Yes this is a lot of compulsion AT FIRST but it slacks off quickly, like in one or two sessions and then it is reward and praise driven. It the dogs starts to get sloppy/slow/inconsistent, it is a very easy thing to remind him.
You will only need the trainers help once or twice then you will hold the leash with the choke chain and apply the needed correction yourself
This may not be the best way. It may not be the approved current thinking way, but in a time crunch and a way that has worked for me and every other dog at our company, quickly and consistently.

It teaches out is out

if you move to a bite scenario the out works the same way
tugs, balls, kongs, it teaches the dog to drop what they have when you say out or get corrected. and if they drop on command they get rewarded. They catch on really quick


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## rick smith

what Jon posted works

it's also a good example of why i think physical compulsion is often used when you feel you are pressed for time

but i'm not implying other methods necessarily take a lot longer either 

and i have seen dogs who will not drop an object they have in their mouth by jerking a choker in the manner Jon described and need more physical manipulation to trigger a gag reflex.....i would think a dog who is highly motivated might learn to expect the jerk and clamp down harder since their reflexes are often faster than the human's 

Jon, are you saying this must be done fast to avoid conditioning an opposition reflex ? if so, i would agree wholeheartedly

in my limited experience i have never seen a dog with a determined motivated grip trained in a few minutes this way but i will believe it can be done .... would love to see it being trained in a video from start to finish


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## rick smith

i also think surprising the dog to overpower it and train behaviors it is not a good way to build a bond with your dog, unless you already have a strong one to start with


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## Jon Harris

yes the jerk is very quick so the dog is not ready for it and it is applied by the trainer not the handler.

the handler has the flat collar on the leash and gives the command. non compliance causes the trainer ( off to the side) to apply the correction. Im sure there are some it WONT work on but all the dogs we had an issue getting the reward toy ( normally a kong) back from responded to this very quickly and with very little repeating retained the desired out behavior. Some learned it faster than others. Some needed the same correction for a couple of days but none more than that. ( mine included)


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## Jon Harris

i agree with you also on bonding. In my case the bonding is pretty tight. After the class is over the dog went with me to the hotel. once deployed like now the dog is never separated from me and I do mean never. The only time is if im at the chow hall ( DFAC) for you modern guys or in the toilet/shower .
He stays in my room with me or on the leash with me everywhere I go so the bond, if damaged in the training phase, is constantly strengthened. The dog I have was shy and people aggressive. He still barks at people but never at me. It took a while for him to trust me but now that trust is complete. I can do anything with/to the dog without complaint or avoidance from him. He's a real good boy although a little handler dependent now. He is easy to work but really doesnt like other people very much.


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## rick smith

Jon, 
just to be clear, was this only used for teaching the dog to out a toy that had just been given to the dog as a reward for correct behavior ?

as part of a training session, as opposed to the handler just giving the toy for nothing in particular, and then given an out command ?

meaning the trainer on the choker would be walking with the handler on the flat collar, and when the dog indicates and the reward is given, this technique would then be used ?


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## Jon Harris

correct.
the trainer would not walk with the handler but would step in if the out was an issue or you were screwing up some other way. He was observing you of course. 

the normal detection problem say on vehicles had 4 or 5 hides The handler searches the vehicle the dog alerts with correct behavior the reward it given Now you need to continue with the problem and move on to continue the search on other vehicles but cant because the dag has the reward. You walk the dag away from the spot where he was rewarded for finding the odor and retrieve the toy This is where the out comes in and the correction if needed. A couple minutes working the out and you return to the search. Same thing again. It really worked surprisingly well. The sooner the dog learned to out of command the sooner you continued the search and the sooner the dog got the toy again. of course at the end of the exercise you ended with a find and the dog got the toy and was allowed to keep it longer. It still had to out but by then the dogs were normally ready to give up the toy so they could go play the game of finding the odor and having it thrown to them.

I never really tried to trick the dog that the toy didnt come from me He knew but he only got it with good behavior meaning good alerts, steady alert position and of course on odor.

If the dog it outing fairly well the problem takes 10 -20 minutes and the next handler in line starts the problem. If you are fighting the dog the exercise will take way to long, The handler is exhausted as well as the dog from fighting over the toy. or if the handler has started to have to choke the dog to force the gag response and have him drop the toy the dog loses valuable stamina in the search. We figured every time you choked the dog and fought the out you lost 15 minutes of search time in dog energy. With us searching hundreds of vehicles a day on station you needed to conserve the dog and not waste his stamina.


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## Max Orsi

Learn how to play the "game", it does not take longer than a 3/4 five minutes sessions.

You will see the benefits not only on the "outs" but in the rest of the control and your relationship.

Happy training


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## Bob Scott

Having done a LOT of correction training in the past I don't think it harms the "bond" *IF *it's done fair and the level of correction is relative to the dog's temperament.
I'll still use reward based markers as a first choice today BUT.....:wink:


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## Joby Becker

rick smith said:


> what Jon posted works
> 
> it's also a good example of why i think physical compulsion is often used when you feel you are pressed for time


Rick that is for sure one reason among many that people use compulsion.


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## brad robert

sure there is compulsion used in jons method but it quickly pushed aside with a toy/rebite so even though its compulsion your still using drive to reward and recover and that type of dog is going to take it in its stride.

Obviously in a situation that is not so time poor you could do it motivationally but even then you may have to add a correction here and there as the dog defies you if its a strong dog...and even then with some dogs there is no gaurantee its gunna be solid

In some ways i think if this type of training can give a good result is brief and the dog learns quickly to avoid the compulsion and finds drive in outing then game on again whats it hurt? we have very motivated dogs that shouldnt crumble from a correction and if it needs to be stressed hard once or twice or even 5 times to the idea of the out its better then a life time of conflict and crap with the dog not doing as told and challenging you... i think people are getting to positive positive its balance


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