# Do you think your dog needs you to work well?



## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

An experiment I just tried.

The Goal:
Will my dog work without me for a non dog handler?

Why:
At work the dogs are kennelled either at the base or top of the mountain while I do my day's work. If we receive a call out (from my work) often someone else will have to bring the dog to the scene and I will meet them there. It has happened at our work that a dog arrives on scene before a handler. Since we presume the chance of a live recovery, and every second counts, it would be nice to have the dog start working even if the handler has not yet arrived.

In this case I chose to have a non dog handler do the entire search, not just start the dog, just to see how things would go. I had the patroller pick up the dog from the base kennel, snowmobile him to the scene and do a search. I wanted to know what someone with only a brief description of how to handle and work the dog would do.

The search was not a difficult one, with one live find and two articles (shallow 30-40 cm) in a 200 x 200 area (approx). The locations of the Live find and 2 articles were unknown to the patroller handling the dog. 

Temp was -5 celcius. Biggest challenge was from calm conditions. (lack of wind) Less impressive in terms of head snaps and finding things from great distances.

Another patroller took some video clips for me (on my digital camera) so I could see what happened. The sky was so obscured that I could not see the search site from any distance. I am having trouble loading the vid, but should get around to it soon.

The patroller said that he found the dog easy to work and direct and felt that the dog did not care that I was not around.

Anyone else have an application for such an experiment? Do you think most dogs would work well without their handler? I would imagine so. Of course I realize that only we as handlers know the real ins and outs of reading our dogs.....


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

I can't say for your AVI stuff. But my dog has been handled by a few stangers (father-in-law most recently) and there were no issues. Of course I was present so maybe my point is moot.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Hi Jen:
I don't know that I'd have any real-life application for it, but I've had other folks handle my dog in training scenarios (usually a new handler who would like to gain handling experience). He doesn't seem to care who is handling him, but then again, we specifically train our dogs to be very independent workers.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Just thought of something else - I was at a detection seminar a couple of years ago and saw a dog that absolutely would not work without his handler around. The first day of the seminar, the handler was present and worked her dog. He did really well and seemed to be a very drivey dog. The handler could not attend the second day and had another handler bring her dog to the seminar. The dog absolutely would not work that second day and would not even look at the reward toy. It was bizarre.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Not sure it would be a good idea to even play with my dog unsupervised any more let alone work him. Not good


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Not sure it would be a good idea to even play with my dog unsupervised any more let alone work him. Not good


I imagine your dog serves a different purpose than the types of applications I was invisioning when I posted this in a SAR thread 

I would not think it a good idea for anyone to play with my dog unsupervised either though


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Konnie Hein said:


> Just thought of something else - I was at a detection seminar a couple of years ago and saw a dog that absolutely would not work without his handler around. The first day of the seminar, the handler was present and worked her dog. He did really well and seemed to be a very drivey dog. The handler could not attend the second day and had another handler bring her dog to the seminar. The dog absolutely would not work that second day and would not even look at the reward toy. It was bizarre.



Hmmmm...interesting. Would the dog play with other people with the reward toy if the handler was around?


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Absolutely - he's a certified USAR dog, so his reward is playing tug with the helper/victim.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

My older GSD would work for anyone he knows. That would be in SAR, Schutzhund or herding. 
He wont take a lot of pressure from anyone outside the family but SAR, Schutzhund and herding are all big games to him.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Rock will work for anyone. He finds his victims, they give him his tug, and if they have to climb out or down from something he waits for them to come out and play....even with me and my flanker and whoever else followed us are standing there.......he has GREAT victim loyalty. 


Jesea will work for others, but with a little less enthusiasm that when I work her and she takes her tug back to the car after the first tug reward, bizarre for her since when she plays with me she does not want to quit. 

Max, nope, notta, spends the entire time trying to wrap their legs up in the line. (he's an asshole anyway, especially now with him getting up there in age)

Ajay is nowhere near someone else handling him yet, too early in his training. And I cannot even say if I think he would or would not work for someone yet....but he loves to track, that's for sure.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

My male would, I think. But he would keep testing the strange handlers resolve.

My female would bite immediately. My trainer had to feed her hot dogs while I handed him the leash. Then, after she was done with the hot dog, she bit him anyway. She knew him!


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## Amber Gentry (Dec 15, 2008)

My dog will not work for strangers. There is even a big difference in how she reacts to my husband handling her. She is very handler specific.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

This is something that I have not heard in years. This was always brought up when I was younger in reference to the worth of a dog for breeding.

Dogs that need their handler to work were not taken completely off the list for breeding, but they had to have a lot of other things going for them to get past this.

Interesting that it comes out in a SAR thread.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

No idea. No one else has handled my dog since he was about 13 months old. Peoples impressions were that he worked better for me. At home my daughter can give him commands and he will listen (when he wants to), strangers telling him to sit?...lol, he doesn't hear it. Someone couldn't be "too" undog savy or he would just yank them around or ignore them. People can handle my lines on the field, he wont bite a handler but these are dog people handling him and giving "sharp" commands. A soft person is going to get plowed regardles, I think. Would he bite decoy if someone else told him to? I'm sure just for the fact that he lives for that anyway.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

My Bentley would tolerate someone else but if they gave him a hard correction, well let's just say he wasn't to glad they were on the other end of the leash. My son, Jay could work him all day long. My female works good with older children but not so much as with an adult. She won't do anything bad, just refuses to work for them. I'm not saying she never would but not with a new person. Jay, can also work her.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Jerry, what if they didn't have the leash ??? As in he just had on a collar and they were going to do bite work ???


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Only with Jay. They wouldn't go with anyone else unless I gave them written permission in duplicate. lol


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

And if you are not there ???


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

if you guys got caught in an avalanche, you got buried and the dog didn't what would he do?


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Jeff, no one works my dog without me being there IF I even allow it, which I don't.

Chris, I have GSD, he would dial 911.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Am I wearing camo-flagee at the time ??? How do I explain my sudden urge to go to an avalanche area ???? Why am I bringing my dog ??? And if a tree falls during an avalanche, am I required to report wether I hear it or not ??


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Chris Michalek said:


> if you guys got caught in an avalanche, you got buried and the dog didn't what would he do?


I would expect him to dig to me! The dogs are not meant to excivate people however, digging is only an alert though most will grab clothing (or more) and pull. The other rescuers are meant to dig with shovels once the dog has alerted and the victim is located with a probe (long pole). 

If you were alone with your dog you would more than likely die even if the dog found you as debris is not easy digging, even with shovels and numerous poeple digging.

Educated people who travel in avalanche terrain generally choose slopes and conditions suited to the day's avalanche conditions, wear avalanche tranceivers and carry other self rescue gear, travel with parteners or groups, travel or ski one at a time in exposed areas....all this to avoid getting in an avalanche in the first place, but if you are in one, there should be someone else in your party to rescue you immediatly, without the use of a dog. Of course accidents still happen.

What I am saying is that if I am burried in an avalanche and have to rely ONLY on my dog for my survival....I have made more than one mistake.




Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Am I wearing camo-flagee at the time ??? How do I explain my sudden urge to go to an avalanche area ???? Why am I bringing my dog ??? And if a tree falls during an avalanche, am I required to report wether I hear it or not ??


I am ASSuming that he was talking to me. :-s


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