# NEW DOG Situation



## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

You get a van load of new dogs at your facility and are training them for DP work. In the bitework you notice a few of the the younger dogs (16-24months) have conflict when removing the dog from the bite? As you approach the dog, he squirms and tries to get away from you knowing you are going to take him off? What do you do? How do you approach that? No verbal out is taught/necessary at this time for your particular department.

Do you do Team building exercises to let the dog get comfortable? Beat the dog senseless? What do you do to reduce the conflict and clear the dogs head?


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Wouldnt do bite work for the first 10 days.

Absolutely team building

First bites would be very short and the dog would only work from in between my legs. Lots of petting the dog while on the bite. Would only use the break stick until the dog was comfortable on the bite.

Then would add distance but continue to work the dog inbetween my while he was on the bite then out.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

We have a 12 week course and ease into the bitework to try and avoid that . We try and get the out foundation set pretty good off of other objects before moving on to the sleeve or suit . 

With that said some dogs will still have a conflicy moving on to that . We will usually step back in training and go from there . It depends on the dog though on what we do . Some will be so possesive it may always be a problem . My last dog was one of them . I did everything I could have to reduce that conflict and wasn't able to improve it that much . In the end he basically had to do what I wanted while on the bite no matter how pissed he got , with me or the badguy .


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## Jim Duncan (Jan 19, 2009)

I would also agree with the team building. We do lots of "run byes" where the handler approaches, praises the dog, pets the dog and grabs the collar while it is on the bite thne backs away. We do a lot of those in the beginning and then slip the suit top or sleeve. It gets the dog used to the handler approaching and eliminates that "handler conflict." It also eliminates the dog always expecting to be lifted off when the handler approaches. 

I think there can be many parts to this type of problem; the dog. the training and a handler conflict and the dog reacting to the handlers approach. When decoying you can see the handler conflict when the dogs eyes roll into the back of his head when the handler approaches. I guess the solution depends on where the problem lies. 

Jim


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

This happened on my own dog. I didn't start him on bitework until he was 3, so he didn't have the foundation that most dogs have. He's got a very good relationship with me and is one of the most affectionate dogs I've had, but he would get the whale eye, get the worried whine, and swing away from me on a bite when I came up towards him when we were starting out. I suspected it was because his lack of foundation and he's quite possessive of tugs and toys. So what helped a lot was teaching calm holding like you would for a retrieve and petting with just a tug and walked up and down the leash a lot with verbal praise while he's on the decoy to show him he's not being corrected for what he's doing and he's not going to be asked to out every time either.


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## Michael Santana (Dec 31, 2007)

I agree with a lot of what has been posted. 

I would continue to do bitework though. I would try to avoid any conflict. I would come up, praise the dog a lot, pet him, and get him comfortable with me being there and part of his team. I would NOT remove him from the bite, then walk back to the end of the leash. I would do this for a couple of days. 

Of course, you have to have the dog out at some point. It would be depend on the dog, and would ideally be the least conflicting way possible. I would probably try slipping the first sleeve and introducing stimuli from a different sleeve or the decoy (civil).

I would introduce the 'out' away from bitework, with little to no conflict, possibly playing "two balls", ideally not my own :wink::lol:


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Would defently to some team building exercises of nothing but positive fun with the dog for a week or more depending on the individual dog and how that dog was responding, its hard to put a timeline on a dog till you deal with it on a individual basis.

but I would come up the leash and pet him praise him up, come back down the leash and repeat it over and over again letting him know the man on the other end of the leash is a buddy that can be trusted.

Then like Michael Santana said with slipping and two balls.

Which we start alot of times as pups or new younger dogs in building as they start to mature is slipping the object and presenting a new object keeping him more in tune with the man and not so much the toy at hand building his confidence for the man making him feel like hes a million bucks and can't be beat.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

I like Will's train of thought on this one. I would do the exact thing but maybe also help the dog bite more. Approach him from whatever angle appears more comfortable, or have him between the legs and push him into the bite, then stroke him and push some more. The dog should learn that you're not there to take something away from him but to help him out. The dog gets to bite more, and deeper plus he gets hands on and verbal praise. 

The issue is the out. All the work putting him on the bite and desensitizing him to your presence can be destroyed when it's time for him to come off. Each dog handles the out differently. Taking him off strong can build desire to hang on but may or may not cause distrust in the handler. The ball or tug for the out can be used but later removed once the out is set.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

I like to work with my dog between my legs. Be it short or long attack I will come up to the dog and play tug a war with his collar. I will join in the fight with the dog and hit the decoy or take him to the ground. In training I will alternate the outs from close and also from far away.

Another scenario would be two decoys one to the left and another to my right. I will keep my dog between my legs and pivot from decoy to decoy for the bite. The dog stays inbetween and I will pivot him.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

will fernandez said:


> Another scenario would be two decoys one to the left and another to my right. I will keep my dog between my legs and pivot from decoy to decoy for the bite. The dog stays inbetween and I will pivot him.


 I like that idea.


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## Michael Santana (Dec 31, 2007)

will fernandez said:


> Another scenario would be two decoys one to the left and another to my right. I will keep my dog between my legs and pivot from decoy to decoy for the bite. The dog stays inbetween and I will pivot him.


 
I have found that doing this causes the dog to anticipate the out, and redirect prematurely. Any thoughts?


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Vary the lengths of time on the bite. Decoys should be still at all times. They are not being vocal but completely passive. If you keep doing it over and over quickly you will have this problem. Do it slow, extend the time on the bite and with passive decoys there should be no problem.


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

reward him with a second bite on another decoy as soon as he is taken off the bite, turn and send him on the second decoy- so taking him off the bite, is not the end of his fun everytime...then mix it up...so that does not become the scenario on everybite.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_profilepage&v=siOnHbphRY4#t=62s


If you goto this video you will see what I mean..I am the first pasive decoy. Erwin Guytenbeek is the instructor of the KLPD that introduced me to the technique. Hopefully he will be in Savannah in early to 2012 to share his knowledge.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Depends on the dog but I will take a stab at it... 

Spend 2 weeks or so living with the dog. Not doing any bite work ... only building a base of trust and open communication. 


To correct the bite scenario: eliminate the conflict in the out by extending it through to a tug or sleeve then to a decoy over time being less and less consistent until its faded out. Like Will says you have to go slow and make the second "fight" last and not be really consistent with the reward. If it is like a drill the dog will get hung up. (yes I made this mistake and am having to correct it :x). These damn herders don't forget shit LOL ...


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Give him a bite, work him. Slip the sleeve. Get decoy with a second sleeve. Let dog focus on him as you shorten up the line. Lift him off first sleeve and go back into the second sleeve. Good fight with the decoy. Repeat. Let the dog see that another bite is coming. Teaches beginnings for an out later and to not stick with dead equipment. 

Second part to this, step in and pet the dog while he is on the bite. In and out. Blink of an eye. Repeat this until you can get an arm under the dog and lift up his back end with no conflict. Then you've made headway.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Dave Colborn said:


> Give him a bite, work him. Slip the sleeve. Get decoy with a second sleeve. Let dog focus on him as you shorten up the line. Lift him off first sleeve and go back into the second sleeve. Good fight with the decoy. Repeat. Let the dog see that another bite is coming. Teaches beginnings for an out later and to not stick with dead equipment.
> 
> Second part to this, step in and pet the dog while he is on the bite. In and out. Blink of an eye. Repeat this until you can get an arm under the dog and lift up his back end with no conflict. Then you've made headway.


preciate that Dave!!


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

dave colborn said:


> give him a bite, work him. Slip the sleeve. Get decoy with a second sleeve. Let dog focus on him as you shorten up the line. Lift him off first sleeve and go back into the second sleeve. Good fight with the decoy. Repeat. Let the dog see that another bite is coming. Teaches beginnings for an out later and to not stick with dead equipment.
> 
> Second part to this, step in and pet the dog while he is on the bite. In and out. Blink of an eye. Repeat this until you can get an arm under the dog and lift up his back end with no conflict. Then you've made headway.


 
go buckeyes!!


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Jody Butler said:


> go buckeyes!!



Did you get it ironed out yet, Jody??


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> Did you get it ironed out yet, Jody??


 
yes sir


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Jody Butler said:


> yes sir



Found a boxer bitch today. Should have a program going in no time to get rid of all this herder nonsense...lol. If I don't take her back to her home in a week


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> Found a boxer bitch today. Should have a program going in no time to get rid of all this herder nonsense...lol. If I don't take her back to her home in a week


yeah me too, this puggy eyed bitch is alot fun compared to them nasty herders


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Jody Butler said:


> yeah me too, this puggy eyed bitch is alot fun compared to them nasty herders



Seeee!!!! I heard all special ops were going to bull breeds anyway. Makes sense. lol


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> Seeee!!!! I heard all special ops were going to bull breeds anyway. Makes sense. lol


 
sshhhh keep that quiet till we got enough litters on the ground


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Jody Butler said:


> yeah me too, this puggy eyed bitch is alot fun compared to them nasty herders


Yeah for sure and it's a totally different kind of fun. O


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

I hear ya LOL ... I have my boerboels and bandogs for those times I don't feel like a tweaker :razz:


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