# Testing prey drive



## Don Turnipseed

This is something I have thought of asking many times. Testing pups, or dogs, with things like flirt poles with rags and bumbers seems more like, for lack of a better universal term, testing play drive. Pups are brought up doing this by those that want say their dog is high prey drive. Just an observation, but, there are darn few dogs that won't chase a mouse that is right in front of them. Seems if you want to know what kind of prey drive th dog really has, you would do it without the visual. If a dog isn't willing to search for something he can't see, he has no prey drive. You can actually see hoiw strong the prey drive is by how long the pup/dog is willing to seach. Just seems counterproductive to test with a visual when most any dog that isn't dead will do that.


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## STACEY THYME

Don Turnipseed said:


> This is something I have thought of asking many times. Testing pups, or dogs, with things like flirt poles with rags and bumbers seems more like, for lack of a better universal term, testing play drive. Pups are brought up doing this by those that want say their dog is high prey drive. Just an observation, but, there are darn few dogs that won't chase a mouse that is right in front of them. Seems if you want to know what kind of prey drive th dog really has, you would do it without the visual. If a dog isn't willing to search for something he can't see, he has no prey drive. You can actually see hoiw strong the prey drive is by how long the pup/dog is willing to seach. Just seems counterproductive to test with a visual when most any dog that isn't dead will do that.


Maybe the flirt pole and rag is used to enhance or develop that drive at a pace. You mentions dogs about chasing a mouse, yet you refer to testing pups in the same sentence, not literally but,,,, Never thought about that from that perspective ? You are a trainer right ?


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## will fernandez

that would be hunt drive


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## Charles Guyer

Don Turnipseed said:


> This is something I have thought of asking many times. Testing pups, or dogs, with things like flirt poles with rags and bumbers seems more like, for lack of a better universal term, testing play drive. Pups are brought up doing this by those that want say their dog is high prey drive. Just an observation, but, there are darn few dogs that won't chase a mouse that is right in front of them. Seems if you want to know what kind of prey drive th dog really has, you would do it without the visual. If a dog isn't willing to search for something he can't see, he has no prey drive. You can actually see hoiw strong the prey drive is by how long the pup/dog is willing to seach. Just seems counterproductive to test with a visual when most any dog that isn't dead will do that.


I guess it depends on whether you are discussing common nomenclature related to dog training or just saying gobboly goop to hear yourself talk. Your statement starts with "This is something I have thought of asking for a long time." Then you write an entire paragraph without a single question mark. Provocateur


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## David Frost

STACEY THYME said:


> Maybe the flirt pole and rag is used to enhance or develop that drive at a pace. You mentions dogs about chasing a mouse, yet you refer to testing pups in the same sentence, not literally but,,,, Never thought about that from that perspective ? You are a trainer right ?


Stacey, please stop by here http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f20/ and introduce yourself. It's required. Thank you.

DFrost


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## Kadi Thingvall

will fernandez said:


> that would be hunt drive


I agree


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## Don Turnipseed

LOL. Now I remember why I never posted anything like this here. Hunt drive is the first stage of prey drive....or what the heck are those yotes and other predators searching for in the snow and grass. If you think hunt is separate, there is just no point in going any farther. Guess we better go pay attention to important working dog things things like the "Newest Designer Breed"
Y'all do better with "serious" topics like that. LMFAO
Close the thread.

Look at ya'll. Hell no I would never call myself a trainer, show person either.


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## Aaron Rice

will fernandez said:


> that would be hunt drive


I agree with Will! Im glad we can find some common ground here...


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## Nicole Stark

Don, it may not be technically correct but I've always made a distinction between the drive demonstrated for live prey vs the drive that is demonstrated for an object that the dog may desire to possess. I have dogs at both ends of the spectrum - both hunt for their prey, but both are not naturally inclined to hunt for the same things. 

The mastiffs hunt has way more power and purpose to it and it is very impressive to observe. The DS hunts in a methodical, precise way generally for the object she is looking for but she'd never hunt for the same things or in the same capacity that the mastiff does just the same as the mastiff would not hunt for the type of objects the DS does. 

The mastiff is playful but does not generally engage in the playing with toys unless it's an object that takes on some characteristic of live prey. The DS wants everything I have, even stuff that really wouldn't be fun to have. For example if it's a pipe of some sort just laying there she'll claw, dig, race, chatter, and do just about whatever she can to get to it. Obviously, she is a bit possessive. 

That said, given the applications are different it's understandable that the testing for such qualities would be as well.


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## will fernandez

I am sure there is more we agree on. Just lost in translation.


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## Lee H Sternberg

Nicole Stark said:


> Don, it may not be technically correct but I've always made a distinction between the drive demonstrated for live prey vs the drive that is demonstrated for an object that the dog may desire to possess. I have dogs at both ends of the spectrum - both hunt for their prey, but both are not naturally inclined to hunt for the same things.
> 
> The mastiffs hunt has way more power and purpose to it and it is very impressive to observe. The DS hunts in a methodical, precise way generally for the object she is looking for but she'd never hunt for the same things or in the same capacity that the mastiff does just the same as the mastiff would not hunt for the type of objects the DS does.
> 
> The mastiff is playful but does not generally engage in the playing with toys unless it's an object that takes on some characteristic of live prey. The DS wants everything I have, even stuff that really wouldn't be fun to have. For example if it's a pipe of some sort just laying there she'll claw, dig, race, chatter, and do just about whatever she can to get to it. Obviously, she is a bit possessive.
> 
> That said, given the applications are different it's understandable that the testing for such qualities would be as well.


I gotta ask this. What kind of pipe? I can understand your Dutchie wigging out over a hash pipe!


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## Nicole Stark

All pipes Lee. Copper, PVC, Galvy, Stainless, Aluminum, Wood dowel. I'd put up some video but it's really not something most people are interested in so I'll shoot it to you offline.

But the next time I find some hash I'll let you know if she likes that kinda pipe too. ha ha.


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## Cassandra Lane

I'd be interested in seeing it


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## Nicole Stark

Cassandra Lane said:


> I'd be interested in seeing it


Sure, I'll PM you.


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## Joby Becker

Nicole Stark said:


> All pipes Lee. Copper, PVC, Galvy, Stainless, Aluminum, Wood dowel. I'd put up some video but it's really not something most people are interested in so I'll shoot it to you offline.
> 
> But the next time I find some hash I'll let you know if she likes that kinda pipe too. ha ha.


count me in...

Don...
I look at hunt drive as a dog wanting to find something it cannot see, may use vision,but preferrably it's nose...

Prey drive as chasing or running to something it does see...

sometimes dogs with good prey drive have crappy hunt drive, and some dogs are great at hunting, using their nose, but have crappy prey drive...these two are usually linked, but not always....have seen it...


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## David Frost

Joby Becker said:


> count me in...
> 
> 
> 
> sometimes dogs with good prey drive have crappy hunt drive, and some dogs are great at hunting, using their nose, but have crappy prey drive...these two are usually linked, but not always....have seen it...


I've seen exactly that. I've also seen dogs that were prey monsters, IF the object was moving. No interest what-so-ever, if the object was not moving. 

DFrost


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## Nicole Stark

Joby Becker said:


> count me in...


OK Joby, I'll send you an email.


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## Aaron Rice

Don Turnipseed said:


> This is something I have thought of asking many times. Testing pups, or dogs, with things like flirt poles with rags and bumbers seems more like, for lack of a better universal term, testing play drive. Pups are brought up doing this by those that want say their dog is high prey drive. Just an observation, but, there are darn few dogs that won't chase a mouse that is right in front of them. Seems if you want to know what kind of prey drive th dog really has, you would do it without the visual. If a dog isn't willing to search for something he can't see, he has no prey drive. You can actually see hoiw strong the prey drive is by how long the pup/dog is willing to seach. Just seems counterproductive to test with a visual when most any dog that isn't dead will do that.



Don

Prey drive = chase

Do you chase Easter eggs or do you hunt them?

Im not saying saying they dont tie together. What point are you trying to make?


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## Nancy Jocoy

Joby Becker said:


> count me in...
> 
> Don...
> I look at hunt drive as a dog wanting to find something it cannot see, may use vision,but preferrably it's nose...
> 
> Prey drive as chasing or running to something it does see...
> 
> sometimes dogs with good prey drive have crappy hunt drive, and some dogs are great at hunting, using their nose, but have crappy prey drive...these two are usually linked, but not always....have seen it...


That is exactly the way I have heard it too...and seen it vary from dog to dog.


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## leslie cassian

Just from my two dogs. Both dogs will chase a rag or tug or any live thing moving. They've gone after everything from mice in the ground to chickens to running deer. I consider that prey drive. It moves, chase it and kill it.

Hunt drive to me is looking for something. If I throw the ball and they don't see where it lands, my DS will look and look until she finds it. She will move back and forth over where she thinks it is and then start to cast out further. She rarely quits before she finds it. My Mal, on the other hand, will look about for a bit and then look to me. He may go back to searching if I get happy and encourage him, or he may just start to eat grass. His hunt drive sucks. Then again, he seems pretty good at finding and catching fieldmice.

To me building/encouraging/having prey drive is like having currency. It gives you something to pay your dog with. You want it? Here, do something and get it. The more you can get your dog to want something, the more potential you have to ask him to work for it.


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## James Downey

Don Turnipseed said:


> This is something I have thought of asking many times. Testing pups, or dogs, with things like flirt poles with rags and bumbers seems more like, for lack of a better universal term, testing play drive. Pups are brought up doing this by those that want say their dog is high prey drive. Just an observation, but, there are darn few dogs that won't chase a mouse that is right in front of them. Seems if you want to know what kind of prey drive th dog really has, you would do it without the visual. If a dog isn't willing to search for something he can't see, he has no prey drive. You can actually see hoiw strong the prey drive is by how long the pup/dog is willing to seach. Just seems counterproductive to test with a visual when most any dog that isn't dead will do that.


 
I am now Dumber for having read this.


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## Bob Scott

Joby Becker said:


> count me in...
> 
> Don...
> I look at hunt drive as a dog wanting to find something it cannot see, may use vision,but preferrably it's nose...
> 
> Prey drive as chasing or running to something it does see...
> 
> sometimes dogs with good prey drive have crappy hunt drive, and some dogs are great at hunting, using their nose, but have crappy prey drive...these two are usually linked, but not always....have seen it...


!!!DING, DING, DING!!!
Give the winner a prize!
So simple yet soooo worked into the ground!


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## Sara Waters

leslie cassian said:


> Just from my two dogs. Both dogs will chase a rag or tug or any live thing moving. They've gone after everything from mice in the ground to chickens to running deer. I consider that prey drive. It moves, chase it and kill it.
> 
> Hunt drive to me is looking for something. If I throw the ball and they don't see where it lands, my DS will look and look until she finds it. She will move back and forth over where she thinks it is and then start to cast out further. She rarely quits before she finds it. My Mal, on the other hand, will look about for a bit and then look to me. He may go back to searching if I get happy and encourage him, or he may just start to eat grass. His hunt drive sucks. Then again, he seems pretty good at finding and catching fieldmice.
> 
> To me building/encouraging/having prey drive is like having currency. It gives you something to pay your dog with. You want it? Here, do something and get it. The more you can get your dog to want something, the more potential you have to ask him to work for it.


Thats how I would see it. My dogs will chase rabbits and roos with intent. However my cattle dogs will hunt. I just have to say the word mouse or rabbit and they will go into a frenzy of looking and will get into everything in their efforts, or if they have run a rabbit to ground they wont give up sticking their heads into every hole untill they determine where it is and then will start digging, or they will wait it out. 

My collies and kelpie have long lost interest by then, they just like to chase down the moving animal and they also have very good tug drive and chase the tug drive.


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## Kadi Thingvall

Joby Becker said:


> I look at hunt drive as a dog wanting to find something it cannot see, may use vision,but preferrably it's nose...
> 
> Prey drive as chasing or running to something it does see...
> 
> sometimes dogs with good prey drive have crappy hunt drive, and some dogs are great at hunting, using their nose, but have crappy prey drive...these two are usually linked, but not always....have seen it...


Simple, to the point, and accurate.


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## Jason Davis

Don Turnipseed said:


> LOL. Now I remember why I never posted anything like this here. Hunt drive is the first stage of prey drive....or what the heck are those yotes and other predators searching for in the snow and grass. If you think hunt is separate, there is just no point in going any farther. Guess we better go pay attention to important working dog things things like the "Newest Designer Breed"
> Y'all do better with "serious" topics like that. LMFAO
> Close the thread.
> 
> Look at ya'll. Hell no I would never call myself a trainer, show person either.


Hunt and prey, obviously separate. Yes, predators are hunting for their prey, but why is that? This is because from a baby, their mother has been bringing back the food to them, creating a desire for it. Also after eating fresh meat day in and day out, they learn the scent of the animal. The mother doesn't have the babies go out and get their own food. If that happened, they would die. 
It's the same thing with testing a puppy. If I never show a puppy an object, never let them chase and bite it and build a desire for it, how am I going to expect them to hunt for it? How are they going to know what they are hunting for? You build the desire for the object, then make then work/hunt for it. It's as simple as that.


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## Nicole Stark

Some dogs are hardwired to hunt, which can be developed/fostered entirely separate from developing or building relationship with a particular object. I've shown my mastiff bolts, batteries, credit cards, etc once and then hid them. She found these items every single time and with relative ease. The DS isn't a lot different. She wants whatever you have or have thrown, it generally doesn't matter what it is.

I can relate to what you are saying but I have found that the hunt alone can be enough of an incentive for a dog to work. I've seen my DS take a ball and carry it up on top of the snowmachine only to purposely drop it into the surrounding area, which made it possible for her to hunt a bit to retrieve it.


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## Jason Davis

Nicole Stark said:


> Some dogs are hardwired to hunt, which can be developed/fostered entirely separate from developing or building relationship with a particular object. I've shown my mastiff bolts, batteries, credit cards, etc once and then hid them. She found these items every single time and with relative ease. The DS isn't a lot different. She wants whatever you have or have thrown, it generally doesn't matter what it is.
> 
> I can relate to what you are saying but I have found that the hunt alone can be enough of an incentive for a dog to work. I've seen my DS take a ball and carry it up on top of the snowmachine only to purposely drop it into the surrounding area, which made it possible for her to hunt a bit to retrieve it.




Yes I understand this, but you can't test puppies this way. You can't throw a bolt out into a field, go get a puppy and expect them to go find it, and if it doesn't find it, call it a wash. What you are talking about is more of a finished product, not testing a puppies prey drive, like what's being asked on this thread. Know what I mean? It's kind of hard for me to explain thing through txt


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## Nicole Stark

Jason Davis said:


> Yes I understand this, but you can't test puppies this way. You can't throw a bolt out into a field, go get a puppy and expect them to go find it, and if it doesn't find it, call it a wash. What you are talking about is more of a finished product, not testing a puppies prey drive, like what's being asked on this thread. Know what I mean? It's kind of hard for me to explain thing through txt


Yeah for sure. But for the record, my dogs are not even close to a finished product. They're just dogs owned by someone who has interest in scent work. That said, I tested the DS as a pup and don't necessarily agree that you cannot assess this attribute early on. The mastiff has always had a desire to follow/work scent. I simply found a way to channel it into something somewhat productive. Even if I had not done so, after watching her behavior over the past 6 years I can tell what has occurred in a particular area just by observing her behavior - this is something relatively separate from work I have done with her yet it's related.

Prey/hunt - I certainly agree are different but as I said above I don't necessarily agree that you cannot see a dogs natural inclination or orientation for scent based work early on. To be clearer, my posts have been directed towards Don and not necessarily the general forum membership. Don and I have dogs (sans the DS) with something in common, I understand where he's coming from and why the context doesn't quite gel with him.


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## Jason Davis

Nicole Stark said:


> Yeah for sure. But for the record, my dogs are not even close to a finished product. They're just dogs owned by someone who has interest in scent work. That said, I tested the DS as a pup and don't necessarily agree that you cannot assess this attribute early on. The mastiff has always had a desire to follow/work scent. I simply found a way to channel it into something somewhat productive. Even if I had not done so, after watching her behavior over the past 6 years I can tell what has occurred in a particular area just by observing her behavior - this is something relatively separate from work I have done with her yet it's related.
> 
> Prey/hunt - I certainly agree are different but as I said above I don't necessarily agree that you cannot see a dogs natural inclination or orientation for scent based work early on. To be clearer, my posts have been directed towards Don and not necessarily the general forum membership. Don and I have dogs (sans the DS) with something in common, I understand where he's coming from and why the context doesn't quite gel with him.


Of course you can see a puppies natural tenancies for hunting as a puppy. I never said you couldn't. What I did say is IMO, you don't test a puppies desire for chasing and biting a rag, when they've never even seen a rag before, by hiding it, going and getting the puppy, and then expecting him to find it. You must build the desire for that object first. Yes, you have puppies follow their nose until they find "something", but if that "something" were to take off and the puppy had zero interest in chasing and biting it, does that mean the puppy has good prey drive because he followed his nose to it? I'd say no.


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## Lou Castle

Don Turnipseed said:


> This is something I have thought of asking many times. Testing pups, or dogs, with things like flirt poles with rags and bumbers seems more like, for lack of a better universal term, testing play drive.


Most people I know use a flirt pole to bring out prey drive. They test for it by throwing a toy the dog like, a ball or a rolled up towel. Then it's a matter of reading the dog's body language to make sure that what they're seeing is indeed prey drive. 



Don Turnipseed said:


> Seems if you want to know what kind of prey drive th dog really has, you would do it without the visual. If a dog isn't willing to search for something he can't see, he has no prey drive.


Unless a dog has made some sort of association prey drive is almost always triggered visually. Otherwise it's hunt drive. At least by the definitions I use. 



Don Turnipseed said:


> You can actually see hoiw strong the prey drive is by how long the pup/dog is willing to seach. Just seems counterproductive to test with a visual when most any dog that isn't dead will do that.


I think that this last part measures hunt drive.


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## Lou Castle

Jason Davis said:


> If I never show a puppy an object, never let them chase and bite it and build a desire for it, how am I going to expect them to hunt for it? How are they going to know what they are hunting for? You build the desire for the object, then make then work/hunt for it. It's as simple as that.


I think that all these drives that we discuss are handed down in the dog's genetics. Either he has them or he does not. They can be "pronounced" or they can be "not very strong" or somewhere in between. We don't build them and we don't put them into the dog. We can bring them out with training, often by getting out of the way and letting it happen, or we can suppress them.


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## Steve Groen

James Downey said:


> I am now Dumber for having read this.


Uh, too funny!\\/


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## Ariel Peldunas

Don Turnipseed said:


> Just seems counterproductive to test with a visual when most any dog that isn't dead will do that.


 
Most any dog but yours, Don. There's no purpose to your query but to discount things that you don't understand and that your dogs aren't good at. Why not just stick to your forte and leave the rest to those who understand it?


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## Sara Waters

One of my most voracious rabbit chasers is a dog that showed zero interest in chasing tugs and balls as a puppy. In fact she was very low drive and quite unlike my other pups and quite a dissapointment. I started to exercise her in a place where there were stacks of rabbits and I unleashed a demon. She will take a tug and chase a ball these days but rabbit chasing is what realy motivates her, she will run till she drops.


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## Jackie Lockard

I had a pup once that would go absolutely bananas for toys of all kinds. Tugs, balls, rubber chews, bones, antlers, ropes, every other toy known to man, particularly anything with jute on it. Barking, lunging, would just go crazy for it, didn't have to be moving but moving toys amplified his reaction. Extremely possessive. Would literally gather every toy possible and make a little bed for himself; every toy would be under his body so no one else could play with them.

Would not chase live prey animals (ground hogs, rabbits, squirrels, cats, mice) ever. Even caught him a mouse one time and tried to make him pay attention to it. Nothing.

I never did understand this.


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## Nancy Jocoy

Jackie Lockard said:


> I had a pup once that would go absolutely bananas for toys of all kinds. Tugs, balls, rubber chews, bones, antlers, ropes, every other toy known to man, particularly anything with jute on it. Barking, lunging, would just go crazy for it, didn't have to be moving but moving toys amplified his reaction. Extremely possessive. Would literally gather every toy possible and make a little bed for himself; every toy would be under his body so no one else could play with them.
> 
> Would not chase live prey animals (ground hogs, rabbits, squirrels, cats, mice) ever. Even caught him a mouse one time and tried to make him pay attention to it. Nothing.
> 
> I never did understand this.


My Grim is like this. and it is wonderful for what we do. I hope I can get there with Beau the puppy. Out in the woods offlead a lot, the last thing I want is a dog chasing critters. Grim *will* take off after a cat but is a quick call off and can work with it present (usually in a tree)


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## Nicole Stark

My young DS is also like this. It's a fairly significant departure from what I am accustomed to but I don't mind it so much although sometimes she seems oblivious to the world around her. In a working capacity, I am certain this would be beneficial but in the environment she spends considerable time in I can see it being a bit of a danger to her.


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## Don Turnipseed

Been pretty interesting reading. Almost as funny as it is distressing. Really good dogs don't have a future judging from what I am reading. Most of you were told, by someone, what prey drive is, others read it in a book or saw a video talking prey drive. First off, Nicole has the only sensible post in this thread. The post where she points out:


> That said, given the applications are different it's understandable that the testing for such qualities would be as well.


That is the only halfway realistic statement in this whole thread.

Anyone ever wonder how it came to be called "prey drive" instead of "ball drive"? Why? Because the term was around long before someone decided to write books for the gullible. A known term like 
"prey drive" adds legitimacy. Prey drive is one of the drives necessary for survival. It has to do with live prey and hunting is indeed part of prey drive. Meals don't just magically appear for the taking. First, "real prey" has to be hunted up, then it has to be caught. Works in tandem. Can't have one without the other. In the hunting application, no hunter would even consider keeping a dog that showed no desire to hunt without seeing the prey.....because the dog hasn't got enough prey drive. Dogs like that do no more than walk by your side when you are hunting. Pretty remedial stuff really. Prey = Prey. Not balls, tugs, toys etc.

That being said, I can understand how most of you see hunt as totally separate in your application and the total misuse of terminology. Let me explain.

Joby said,


> sometimes dogs with good prey drive have crappy hunt drive, and some dogs are great at hunting, using their nose, but have crappy prey drive...these two are usually linked, but not always....have seen it..


If a dog posses the ability to hunt real prey, sight unseen, he has "prey drive". This does not include balls, toys, towels etc. Because a dog is willing to chase balls, toys and such, is in no way indicative of prey drive since they are not prey. They are no more prey than a stick sitting on the ground. Using the term "ball drive", is misleading. It isn't a drive at all. It is just an obsession created by people for a purpose Not all dogs can be made obsessive, so the ones that are bred to. Creates a bunch of dogs that are obsessive. Since it is not a drive but an obsession, it isn't really hard to see why a dog with a great obsession for balls and rags would have no hunt. Same in reverse.

Ariel said


> Most any dog but yours, Don. There's no purpose to your query but to discount things that you don't understand and that your dogs aren't good at. Why not just stick to your forte and leave the rest to those who understand it?


Ariel, I know more about this topic than you will ever know. The very relaxed dogs you saw have extreme "prey drive". In all your experience, you just don't know it when you see it. Rags and such are not prey and they won't chase balls. Hold a rat up and they will take half your arm off. What you think is prey drive has nothing to do with prey .....just inanimate objects you have created an obsession around. Thinking back, how many times have the so called experienced on this board said their dogs are hard keepers in the house without crating because they have "such high drive." Good lord, has not a thing to do with drive. If you understand prey drive, it is an extremely focused thing, not a 24 hour condition. This means means the dogs are either 1. obsessive or 2. the person doesn't know how to handle them. Mostly number two because even an obsessive dog can be handled if you really have the experience.

This brings us to what y'all like to call "drive building". You can't build drive that isn't there. The dog is either born with it or it isn't. All you are doing is building strong obsessive behavior for and object. The strong obsession give you the illusion you are building stronger drives. No more, no less.

I have been here long enough to know most of this will go right over all your experienced heads. I didn't put this up for you. I put it up for the newbies so they have a better understanding than the rest of you.


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## Don Turnipseed

Jackie, the above post explains what you are seeing in your dog.


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## Adam Swilling

Almost every **** hunter I know starts their young dogs/pups like this: they catch a **** and put it in a cage. Then they put that cage near the pen wherer the pups are. They basically tease the pups with the **** in a cage. Then they put the cage in the pen with the pups and let the pups try to get the ****, still basically teasing the pups with the ****. They then show the dogs the **** in a cage and take the cage off from the pen, turn the pups loose and see if they can find it.Then they start letting them run with the pack, etc. etc.This is all done over a period of time. They've basically made the young dogs so nuts for the **** they'll kill themselves trying to get it. I don't know much about hog hunting at all, but I have a hard time believing **** hunters are doing anything that much different than I do, we're just using different tools to get a slightly different end result. So I guess they're just making the dog obsessive over the ****. If I'm not mistaken, bird dogs are basically started on caged birds or birds that have been tied out.


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## Steve Groen

"It has to do with live prey and hunting is indeed part of prey drive."

Don, I'm a newbie, and I don't mean to encourage anything by my post other than an objective answer. So here's my question followed by a few thoughts: Isn't hunt drive more based on a game as opposed to survival instinct? 

I like the distinction given by others between prey and hunt drive as sight seen and sight unseen. That's a good working definition to me, but it seems also logical that there's more: hunt drive is also about the game, not survival as is your rationale for prey drive generally and hunt drive as a type of prey drive. 

Is a narcotics detection dog in prey drive when he's searching for drugs? From what I understand, it's all a game for that dog. I don't know that it has anything to do with survival. Does a Springer Spaniel spring up on a pheasant for survival? It may be instinctual, but I don't know that it's about survival. That's a game for him.

When my dog chased down and trapped a coyote against a cyclone fence in the park a few blocks from where I live one morning last year, that was prey drive. Wasn't it? She wasn't hunting at all.


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## jack van strien

To me it does not really matter if a pup chases after a toy or not,if i know for sure the pup has never seen a ball before ok maybe i would like it.If you build it up and use it as a reward then it is a real good training aid.
It was shown to me a long time ago why to test a puppy for the willingness to go after something.
My friend told me he was not at all interested in testing for preydrive yet he threw his carkeys in the middle of the pups.One pup dove on it and when my friend tried to take them back he came up with a bloody hand,that was the pup we took home.
At six weeks old a pup can tell you a lot if you know what you want and how to look for it.
This was not an easy dog to work with but one you could always count upon,not a sport dog but dead serious in each and every excercise.I miss those days.
I am not talking about testing a hunting dog,no knowledge there.


----------



## Jennifer Coulter

Don Turnipseed said:


> Been pretty interesting reading. Almost as funny as it is distressing. Really good dogs don't have a future judging from what I am reading. Most of you were told, by someone, what prey drive is, others read it in a book or saw a video talking prey drive. First off, Nicole has the only sensible post in this thread. The post where she points out:
> 
> 
> That is the only halfway realistic statement in this whole thread.
> 
> Anyone ever wonder how it came to be called "prey drive" instead of "ball drive"? Why? Because the term was around long before someone decided to write books for the gullible. A known term like
> "prey drive" adds legitimacy. Prey drive is one of the drives necessary for survival. It has to do with live prey and hunting is indeed part of prey drive. Meals don't just magically appear for the taking. First, "real prey" has to be hunted up, then it has to be caught. Works in tandem. Can't have one without the other. In the hunting application, no hunter would even consider keeping a dog that showed no desire to hunt without seeing the prey.....because the dog hasn't got enough prey drive. Dogs like that do no more than walk by your side when you are hunting. Pretty remedial stuff really. Prey = Prey. Not balls, tugs, toys etc.
> 
> That being said, I can understand how most of you see hunt as totally separate in your application and the total misuse of terminology. Let me explain.
> 
> Joby said,
> 
> 
> If a dog posses the ability to hunt real prey, sight unseen, he has "prey drive". This does not include balls, toys, towels etc. Because a dog is willing to chase balls, toys and such, is in no way indicative of prey drive since they are not prey. They are no more prey than a stick sitting on the ground. Using the term "ball drive", is misleading. It isn't a drive at all. It is just an obsession created by people for a purpose Not all dogs can be made obsessive, so the ones that are bred to. Creates a bunch of dogs that are obsessive. Since it is not a drive but an obsession, it isn't really hard to see why a dog with a great obsession for balls and rags would have no hunt. Same in reverse.
> 
> Ariel said
> 
> 
> Ariel, I know more about this topic than you will ever know. The very relaxed dogs you saw have extreme "prey drive". In all your experience, you just don't know it when you see it. Rags and such are not prey and they won't chase balls. Hold a rat up and they will take half your arm off. What you think is prey drive has nothing to do with prey .....just inanimate objects you have created an obsession around. Thinking back, how many times have the so called experienced on this board said their dogs are hard keepers in the house without crating because they have "such high drive." Good lord, has not a thing to do with drive. If you understand prey drive, it is an extremely focused thing, not a 24 hour condition. This means means the dogs are either 1. obsessive or 2. the person doesn't know how to handle them. Mostly number two because even an obsessive dog can be handled if you really have the experience.
> 
> This brings us to what y'all like to call "drive building". You can't build drive that isn't there. The dog is either born with it or it isn't. All you are doing is building strong obsessive behavior for and object. The strong obsession give you the illusion you are building stronger drives. No more, no less.
> 
> I have been here long enough to know most of this will go right over all your experienced heads. I didn't put this up for you. I put it up for the newbies so they have a better understanding than the rest of you.


It is not that everyone else is wrong, and you are right, or that you are wrong and they are right...you are just simply talking about two different things.

You must know that. You are just being ornery!

I need a different kind of dog than you. Our goals are different. I need a dog that likes to play tug with toys and likes to look for things any time any place and can be rewarded with toys.

You don't need any of that crap. You need a dog that hunts and chases and animal. It will be rewarded by playing tug with that animal!

So what if we both call it prey and hunt drive? Everyone is clear on the differences. It is no secret that dogs that would make good pig dogs may not make good search dogs, and dogs that would make good search dogs, may not make good pig dogs.

What am I missing here?


----------



## Joby Becker

Don...

Not trying to diminish your type of doing things, and your "hunting" dogs,
but 99%+ (probably) people on here, and others involved in the "training"of working type dogs, use the definitions and terms that I have laid out.

prey and hunt, have nothing to do with "real prey" and hunting for survival, or live game..in how it relates to almost all working dogs, they are terms used describe attributes in dogs that can be ulitized for training purposes...with well established methods of testing for them...that have nothing to do with live prey, or hunting for animals.

apples and oranges...


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## Sara Waters

My sheepdog is obsessed with working sheep and this includes the separatety inherited trait of the blind searching cast(not knowing where the sheep are but casting out again and again searching for them). In fact many of the traits a sheepdog may have or in many cases not have are inherited separately and come in different combinations in different dogs leading to a large range of usefullness or lack thereoff. 

I was always led to believe that it is based on prey/hunt drive that has been modified by humans to serve a specific purpose. Watching packs of wolves hunting you can certainly see elements of these traits that I observe in my herding dogs among members of a pack when involved in hunting and catching prey. 

I would have thought that many combinations and expressions of these hunt/prey traits can be selected for and manipulated in dogs depending on the purpose that is required of them.

When we test sheepdogs for ability it is not prey drive as such we are interested in but the manifestations of traits what were probably originally derived from prey and hunt drive that are required in a usefull dog. Certainly the good stockmen I know will put a young dog on sheep and observe. If a specific trait is not there from the beginnning it never will be.


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## Ariel Peldunas

Joby Becker said:


> Don...
> 
> Not trying to diminish your type of doing things, and your "hunting" dogs,
> but 99%+ (probably) people on here, and others involved in the "training"of working type dogs, use the definitions and terms that I have laid out.
> 
> prey and hunt, have nothing to do with "real prey" and hunting for survival, or live game..in how it relates to almost all working dogs, they are terms used describe attributes in dogs that can be ulitized for training purposes...with well established methods of testing for them...that have nothing to do with live prey, or hunting for animals.
> 
> apples and oranges...


My point exactly. Don hunts game with his dogs ...therefore, he expects his dogs to have desire to hunt, chase, catch and kill the game he hunts. In order for protection dog trainers to encourage their dogs to fight a man, we need to build drive for that. Most dogs are not born with an innate desire to chase, catch and kill and man ...so we must use equipment (rags, tugs, etc) until the dog understands the game. Additionally, dogs are not genetically predisposed to finding controlled substances, so we create an association and build drive for those substances using tangible rewards (balls, towels, pipes, etc). 

When Dave and I visited Don and tested his dogs, he had expressed that he understood the difference between what he does and what we do and that few dogs will show natural aggression towards humans without training. Not one of his dogs showed the desire to chase a visual that we would expect from a protection or detection dog candidate. One young female show a bit of interest in a rag. I just think it's funny that Don will say most dogs will show interest in a visual when his dogs proved that point wrong.

It's all about what the dogs are genetically hardwired to do and how those things are nurtured in young dogs. Don's dogs are good at what he uses and breeds them for. Not sure why he feels the need to argue about things he knows little about. But then again ...maybe I do understand.


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## Lou Castle

Here's someone else who disagrees with you Don. 

FROM THIS SITE. 



> PREY DRIVE − Definition – The catching and killing of prey.
> Drive Goal - death to the prey.
> Drive Satisfaction - the prey is dead and the carcass is shredded.
> 
> There are 5 elements to a Prey Drive Hunt.
> 
> Hunt
> Find
> Flush
> Catch
> Kill
> HUNT DRIVE − Definition - the compulsive search for an animal or desired object by scent, sight, or sound.
> 
> Drive Satisfaction - locating the object of the hunt and achieving drive satisfaction for the combat drive that motivates the hunt.
> 
> In order to invoke Prey Drive in a detector dog you must first select a Primary Prey Object that will lend itself well to all 5 elements of Prey Drive. That means that it must be something that will trigger the Hunt ... * Balls, PVC pipe, and tug toys are probably the most common [objects] used for this work today. * [Emphasis Added]


See Don, some of us realize that such things as _"Balls, PVC pipe, and tug toys"_ CAN invoke prey drive.


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## Daryl Ehret

6. possession


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## Bob Scott

Now if you really wan to get crazy about breaking it down aka Coppinger

Wild canine = Orient > eye > stalk > chase > grab/bite > kill/bite > dissect > Consume.
Subject to alterations depending on what behaviors the dog is bred for. :grin: :wink:


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## Nicole Stark

And that really is what this topic comes down to. Either the motor sequence is there and fully intact, or it may be modified (amplified), entirely omitted, or diluted (to varying degrees).


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## Gillian Schuler

Joby Becker said:


> count me in...
> 
> Don...
> I look at hunt drive as a dog wanting to find something it cannot see, may use vision,but preferrably it's nose...
> 
> Prey drive as chasing or running to something it does see...
> 
> sometimes dogs with good prey drive have crappy hunt drive, and some dogs are great at hunting, using their nose, but have crappy prey drive...these two are usually linked, but not always....have seen it...


Our Fila Brasileiro used its eyes to hunt, the Briard used its nose, both in the air and on the ground.

I'm not getting you, what is the difference?


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## Daryl Ehret

IMO, the pertinent three are; finding it, catching it, and _keeping it._


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## Gerald Guay

Well put Daryl. And _*keeping it*_ = willing to fight for it.


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## Charles Guyer

Prey drive cannot be tested or developed without visual cues. Tree dogs learn to tree game with their eyes, the hunt is just a means to that end. Same goes for bay and catch dogs (IMO). Bird dogs learn the basics of pointing or flushing with their eyes. Detection dogs are the same. This all goes back to the silly instinct/competition AIREDALE thread. If I want to hunt fur I'll use a hound, cur, or fiest. If I want to hunt birds, I'll use a setter, pointer, or brittany. If I want game retrieved I'll use a lab or spaniel. Their was a time when I was intrigued by the thought of owning an Airedale based on the utility myth...then I became acquainted with the working Airedale guru.


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## Edward Weiss

Just did a quick read through on this thread, and as I hunt Airerdales(upland and waterfowl) and do VPG with the same dogs have to agree

"There are 5 elements to a Prey Drive Hunt. 

Hunt
Find
Flush
Catch
Kill
HUNT DRIVE − Definition - the compulsive search for an animal or desired object by scent, sight, or sound."
Specifically just got two pheasants last Sunday second timme in the field with my 16 month German Airedale import Kasbah.Actually i shot one and the second never got off the ground as she brought it back to me after quickly running through 1 to 5 listed above.
What we are working on is steady to wing and shot or basically with obedience interrupting at three with a sit until the shot.
I have always found the use "prey drive" for catching sleeves or chasing balls a poor analogy for hunt drive,they just aren't the same.
Another interesting thing I observed this same day was two bird dogs coming upon a trapped ****. They scented the animal first and quickly surrounded the cage barking furiouslybut keeping a 3 foot perimeter as they circled. Kasbah hit the scent heard the dogs and never made a sound but piled low into the cage grabbing and biting and I had a hell of a time getting her off.

Now she will chase balls all day long,act real nasty if if a helper does the wierd guy approach and grab anything that gets within her range tug or sleeve,but its not whats going on in the field with prey.
In the field its more auto pilot with me trying to assert direction.
Unlike VPG no drive building, no scenario for the dog to always win, praising on a bite etc. 

We need a a better descriptor of drive for sleeve and suit work.


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## Don Turnipseed

Still no response? It is almost scarey how similarly th behavior is between dogs and people.


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## Nancy Jocoy

In the bottom line does it matter what the heck you call it or are you questioning the validity of time proven tests for selection of working detection dogs and biting dogs?

I think there are other things you want for a dog that is doing search over larger areas so that a land cadaver dog may be a different dog than a narcotics dog....but you still would expect, at the very least, the dog to pass the same drive tests.


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## Howard Gaines III

Don Turnipseed said:


> ... Seems if you want to know what kind of prey drive th dog really has, you would do it without the visual. If a dog isn't willing to search for something he can't see, he has no prey drive. You can actually see hoiw strong the prey drive is by how long the pup/dog is willing to seach. Just seems counterproductive to test with a visual when most any dog that isn't dead will do that.


 Hunt drive...the same thing you look for in Labs. Kind of like a dog chasing sheep and then gathering them up, it becomes a herding instinct in my book.


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## Don Turnipseed

Good to see you back Howard. Now you hit on something. Herding instinct becoming a drive. I can even accept that as a drive. If a dog has it in spades, it is a hard thing to crush. If he has it naturally through years of breeding, all the dog needs is exposure and direction. On the other hand, if handlers are so worried about "crushing" a dogs drive....are they really drives or just learnd behaviours. Just putting some of my thoughts down in print. . This is stock dog country so I have seen a lot of stock dogs.


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## Connie Sutherland

Don Turnipseed said:


> .... Herding instinct becoming a drive. I can even accept that as a drive. If a dog has it in spades, it is a hard thing to crush. If he has it naturally through years of breeding, all the dog needs is exposure and direction. On the other hand, if handlers are so worried about "crushing" a dogs drive....are they really drives or just learnd behaviours. Just putting some of my thoughts down in print. . This is stock dog country so I have seen a lot of stock dogs.


Is herding strong prey drive with final steps inhibited?


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## rick smith

have you considered one reason it is difficult to TEST a pup is because for the most part, all pup behavior is play behavior influenced by the type of breed they are ? 
- no such thing as a serious pup, even tho some might like to see it and are quick to label their pup "serious" 
- pups don't know how to "hunt" or do much of anything. and if you are talking a domestic dog, it really depends on the breed since EVERY breed has been extremely genetically manipulated to develop certain behaviors.

- one big difference tho :
- wild dogs learn from pack members
- domestics learn from humans
- and as it has been pointed out "natural" breeds (herders, hunters, retrievers, etc) still seem to need to learn a lot from their 4 footed pack members to do their jobs well with humans watching and directing

- "drives" are training terms and the defs will always be debated since trainers don't like to use the words instinct and behaviors....we use the "drive" terms, and often relate it back to wild instincts, but i think all we are looking for when testing pups is the "motivation" factor....is it motivated and can we build on that and get it even higher ?

most testing is just to try and see potential behaviors that will be required for a job they will do when mature
- i agree flirt pole work is not always an accurate test, and it can't be considered "serious", but it's about all we humans got...suppose with some imagination many other methods could be devised
- but imo FP work only tests visual motivation to chase a moving object. you can attach different objects and see diff different levels of motivation, so maybe the lure selection is more important than the pole

- so are bloodhounds the best scent detectors ? they seem to be the most "olfactory" manipulated of any scent breeds...do trainers refer to them as having high "prey drive" ??

- lots of labs do detection work ... is it because of high "prey drive" ?

- beagles are used to detect termites but i don't hear them referred to as high prey drive dogs

- i don't think catching and shredding is necessarily a good indicator since i have seen pet poms, poodle and pug pups who love to "catch and shred", and if allowed to do it as pup they will often do it all their lives, but it doesn't resemble anything of a serious "drive" to me ......maybe some of them would be good candidates for detection tho per Lou's approach; who knows ? but i've also had a lot of personal dogs who like to shred, and i think it can just be a compulsive behavior rather than a "back to the wild dog roots" killing behavior

but for me, testing prey drive is one of those areas where i think i understand but i still get confused when i think about it 
......old age :-(((((

but for me a good dog is a HIGHLY motivated dog that has the right combo of senses needed and a body to match the work


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## Edward Weiss

Just thought I'd post Kasbah and "our" birds that I mentioned before. The other girls in the truck are WPG hunting machines with great noses.


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## Mircea Hemu-Ha

What about sighthounds ? Decent hunters, used their eyes, rarely their noses.

I'll agree that the rag test won't help choose a good hunting dog, but it's not supposed to. The rag may show more things than just willingness to chase and grab, like biting style, possession, willingness to engage a human, sensitivity to pressure, etc., things that may not necessarily make a good hunting dog, but may make or break a sport dog. The "find" part of the "prey drive" on the other hand won't make a ring dog much better so it's not normally tested.

It's just a test for dogs doing specific things, forget the fancy terminology.


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## Joby Becker

Gillian Schuler said:


> Our Fila Brasileiro used its eyes to hunt, the Briard used its nose, both in the air and on the ground.
> 
> I'm not getting you, what is the difference?


depends on what you want the dog to hunt for...most applications for working dogs, it is far more efficient for a dog to use his nose...

example...if you are going to train a dog for any type of detection...you do NOT want him hunting with his eyes...

if you are using a dog for searches of buildings..and in the woods at night, he better be using his nose...

if your dog has to retrieve atricles, or find articles...you do not want him to use his eyes to hunt for them? do you? what if the grass is tall?


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## Nancy Jocoy

Any way you cut it MY eyes are better than a dogs eyes, particularly for non moving objects. If I wanted a dog to CATCH a moving object a sight hound would make sense but not fo FIND anything missing.

Our nose is nothing compared to the dog's nose. We all know that!

I did want an attribute in addition to what we call Hunt drive (by the definition Joby gave) which is biddability. Being able to work a large area and have the dog work independantly while also keeping track of where I am and being in tune with me. Some call it genetic obedience.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Connie Sutherland said:


> Is herding strong prey drive with final steps inhibited?


Within the hunt sequence you also have block, gather, etc. and yes its with the final steps truncated or bred out. Initially, you have eye, orient, stalk. Within the chain, certain dogs/breeds have traits that are more dominant because they have been selected for in breeding. I like a strong gathering dog with a sense of group. Both of my baby puppies have this. They are intense headers and blockers for that part and they work to keep them in a group. 

My bouv has intense prey/hunt for for live animals. She has zero for objects/toys or it will exhaust fairly quickly. I can trigger it but she will want to bite on the body, not a tug or toy. It never exhausts for live animals. There was a thread that talked about high object drive, lower animal prey drive. Both would herd/work livestock 24/7 though. I've had a couple of GSDs that fit that description. My current female puppy is generally drivey with ball/retrieve and object drive. My male puppy is absolutely livestock crazy and only minimal object drive. He also has more of an off switch. 

T


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## Thomas Barriano

Edward Weiss said:


> Just thought I'd post Kasbah and "our" birds that I mentioned before. The other girls in the truck are WPG hunting machines with great noses.


My wife has a Wire Haired Pointing Griffon called Grif


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## Joby Becker

rick smith said:


> have you considered one reason it is difficult to TEST a pup is because for the most part, all pup behavior is play behavior influenced by the type of breed they are ?
> - no such thing as a serious pup, even tho some might like to see it and are quick to label their pup "serious"


never seen a serious pup? ever get bloodied up by a puppy seriously attacking you, say, over a bone or something?


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Pups are not in play drive with livestock. Its serious. You test for interest, confidence/nerves, and certain traits like heading, group, balance and some pups even disply rate/pace early on. The human part of the equation is to put commands on said behaviors and to define the job. 

Joby, is that pup really serious, or a nut? How did he grow up? Was he always given to chewing up his handler. Surely, he only did this once?

T


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## Lou Castle

rick smith said:


> - pups don't know how to "hunt" or do much of anything. and if you are talking a domestic dog, it really depends on the breed since EVERY breed has been extremely genetically manipulated to develop certain behaviors.
> 
> - one big difference tho :
> - wild dogs learn from pack members
> - domestics learn from humans


I think that domestic dogs learn from other dogs and from humans too. 



rick smith said:


> - "drives" are training terms and the defs will always be debated since trainers don't like to use the words instinct and behaviors....


Really? I use both words when they're appropriate. I think that they're debated because people use them differently and use different methods. As long as the definition works for them ... 



rick smith said:


> - i don't think catching and shredding is necessarily a good indicator since i have seen pet poms, poodle and pug pups who love to "catch and shred", and if allowed to do it as pup they will often do it all their lives, but it doesn't resemble anything of a serious "drive" to me ......
> 
> maybe some of them would be good candidates for detection tho per Lou's approach; who knows ? but i've also had a lot of personal dogs who like to shred, and i think it can just be a compulsive behavior rather than a "back to the wild dog roots" killing behavior


There's a vast difference between catching and shredding done in play or as compulsive behavior as I'd guess you've seen it with the dogs you mention, and the same thing done in prey


----------



## Laney Rein

Nicole Stark said:


> Yeah for sure. But for the record, my dogs are not even close to a finished product. They're just dogs owned by someone who has interest in scent work. That said, I tested the DS as a pup and don't necessarily agree that you cannot assess this attribute early on. The mastiff has always had a desire to follow/work scent. I simply found a way to channel it into something somewhat productive. Even if I had not done so, after watching her behavior over the past 6 years I can tell what has occurred in a particular area just by observing her behavior - this is something relatively separate from work I have done with her yet it's related.
> 
> Prey/hunt - I certainly agree are different but as I said above I don't necessarily agree that you cannot see a dogs natural inclination or orientation for scent based work early on. To be clearer, my posts have been directed towards Don and not necessarily the general forum membership. Don and I have dogs (sans the DS) with something in common, I understand where he's coming from and why the context doesn't quite gel with him.


Nicole
Have you tested the search/find of items YOU have not touched or planted or hid? If not, am wondering if dog is retrieving your scent? Am only saying cuz sometimes I have to practice by myself so will hide items out in grass, etc. I then take dog out and tell him to search. He finds the hide usually quickly but always makes me wonder if he's following my scent to the item or really finding it. He does do blind searches with me not knowing their location so know he works, but makes me wonder.


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## Nicole Stark

Laney Rein said:


> Nicole
> Have you tested the search/find of items YOU have not touched or planted or hid? If not, am wondering if dog is retrieving your scent?


Yes, I do. I prefer to do it that way whenever possible. I also like to record my sessions, particularly if they represent a first of some sort. But when I don't, I find the manner in which she or the mastiff searches rather interesting as I can see both working areas that I have been in. 

I gather this may sound weird but when I do control the placement I have noticed that both of my dogs also tend to initially search areas I am first inclined to place the object. It's so consistent that it's almost predictable.


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## Joby Becker

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Pups are not in play drive with livestock. Its serious. You test for interest, confidence/nerves, and certain traits like heading, group, balance and some pups even disply rate/pace early on. The human part of the equation is to put commands on said behaviors and to define the job.
> 
> Joby, is that pup really serious, or a nut? How did he grow up? Was he always given to chewing up his handler. Surely, he only did this once?
> 
> T


First of all...I am not talking about any pup in particular, or particular trait in a pup..past or current.

I was responding to the comment that all things that puppies do is in play, by Rick...and that they are not serious...

I would say that is not a true statement...I would agree that is a pretty common thing, but not applicable across the board.

I was referring to a puppy attacking someone/something with full aggression...not play....happens all the time with certain types of dogs.

If you look at pups at 5-6-7 weeks old, what you are seeing is not USUALLY human induced...

I have seen and heard of puppies fighting at 5-6 weeks old and removing body parts from eachother...I have seen and heard of pups with very extreme "guarding" behaviors, pups can also have serious prey drive, to kill small animals, that has nothing to do with "play", and as you pointed out, expression of herding traits is not done in play mode...

As to your question, I dont really think it matters if the dog was a "nut" or not, to imply a puppy is NOT serious, because someone might label him a "nut" is not something I would agree with...even if he fits the bill to some people, as a nut, he can still be a very serious nut...

make sense???

if I pick out one pup in particular, that did bloody up some people at a very young age...as an adult...I would say by most peoples standards he was probably a NUT...a very predictable nut. don't mess with his food, unless you were his handler, or his territory, or his family...and you would not be bloodied up.

I think compulsive PREY drive in small puppies, is much different than "play", it can be hardwired, and serious, as are some other traits, such as fighting, guarding..herding...etc...


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## Howard Gaines III

I think you can refine any list and for any reason. Broad-brushed for our forum...many look at these: prey, defense, avoidance, fight, and hunt as drives to test and train in. Each is as different as the need or use intended.

If you look at other venues, you look deeper at those targeted behaviors/drives which YOU need. Hunt drive is a refined form of prey. The willingness to go after a bumper and bring it back is also in the same area, a prey behavior.

Expanding prey behaviors for work with drugs, tracking, herding, scent work all go to the basic element of a prey behavior. Stockdogs like Labs aren't waking up one morning and saying, "Today we herd sheep." You have to refine and teach the animal how to work for the human. 

Taking left or right sides and doing so further away from the sheep are done for many reasons. If the dog is too close, sheep spook. They spook when some shepherds are too close as well...TMI!!! :^o


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## Joby Becker

Howard Gaines III said:


> The willingness to go after a bumper and bring it back is also in the same area, a prey behavior.


is bringing it back... really a prey behavior? if so, why?


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## Don Turnipseed

Most all the things Howard listed in the context of trainers, are learned behaviors. You can't really crush a true drive. I saw a bouv with real prey drive working sheep once here. He was rouinding up the sheep and placing them where he was told....one piece at a time. Killed two of them before they got a leash on him, but, he put all the parts where they wanted them. Retrieving is basically trained. The question is, when a TRAIT is bred for, OUR purposes, for generations in domestic dogs, why is it automatically considered a drive inherent to dog. It isn't be a drive because it is something WE created for OUR purposes and isn't something inherent to dogs in general....those are, at best, traits, which are usually very breed specific. I have been told trainers all know what all this incorrect terminology mean, so, why are there so many discussions here ending up in debates on how everything means something different to everyone?Breeders do the same thing, it is just as hard to have a serious dicussion when breeders misuse terminology. Try carrying on a discussion with breeders that don't know the difference between outcrossing, outbreding, inbreeding and the list goes on.


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## Connie Sutherland

Don Turnipseed said:


> Most all the things Howard listed in the context of trainers, are learned behaviors. You can't really crush a true drive.



But you can inhibit one, or parts of one, right, with selective breeding?


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## Joby Becker

Connie Sutherland said:


> But you can inhibit one, or parts of one, right, with selective breeding?


and through training...or poor handling


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## Don Turnipseed

Connie Sutherland said:


> But you can inhibit one, or parts of one, right, with selective breeding?


Dogs have no control over true drives Connie. Change the enviroment and eventually the drives change because they just are not a necessary part of survival any more. For example, domestic dogs don't have to possess strong prey drive because we have been feeding them for how many generations. Breeds still used to hunt, still have it in part....but few eat the prey because they get to go home and eat. Also the reason dogs do things totally unatural to survival such as going toe to toe with dangerous game instead of sticking to little critters that can't hurt them.....they don't have to be able hunt to eat to survive. 

Remember the story I told about the packrat I threw to Magnum? It had no where to go and run up the pantleg of my overalls. That was the one time I was actually scared of one of my dogs because I knew the dog was out of control......yet it doesn't bother me to wade into a fight with 4 dogs banging heads. When the rat ended up on top of my head and I saw the dog leave the ground, I dropped. I can walk into a yard with that same dog and throw a steak on the ground and still have control....but I will never get in the same yard with a live critter to tease them again. Those are drives. Very hard to extinguish.

I hate to even broach the "big event", but, right there I started to realize that I had two trainers in the middle of extremely high prey dogs and they didn't recognize "high prey" because they wouldn't play with rags and balls. Right then I realized it was something else....but it wasn't prey drive at all that is always being discussed. Just obsessive behavior that is developed and bred for. Also the reason many seem to think prey drive is a 24/7 condition.


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Don Turnipseed said:


> Remember the story I told about the packrat I threw to Magnum? It had no where to go and run up the pantleg of my overalls. That was the one time I was actually scared of one of my dogs because I knew the dog was out of control......yet it doesn't bother me to wade into a fight with 4 dogs banging heads. When the rat ended up on top of my head and I saw the dog leave the ground, I dropped. I can walk into a yard with that same dog and throw a steak on the ground and still have control....but *I will never get in the same yard with a live critter to tease them again*. Those are drives. Very hard to extinguish.


Yeah, that would be my take-away lesson, for sure. :lol:







Don Turnipseed said:


> Dogs have no control over true drives ....


Right, I didn't mean so much dogs themselves actually controlling drives. I was thinking more about that hunt sequence and how herders have been bred with the goal of inhibiting the final steps in the sequence.


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## Charles Guyer

I don't get the point of this thread at all. "Prey drive" is just a usefull term in regards to training. If we're not discussing training, why revise it? If you're not making an effort to manipulate your dogs' behaviors for your benefit why do you need to come on a forum and argue semantics with people that use this common terminology to explain the TRAINING OF DOGS? It just seems like grandstanding for no good reason. The fact that someone else's dog goes crazy for barn mice doesn't give me any insight into training. My dog goes apeshit over cats and other critters. I assume that is a product of a combination of innate and learned (often self taught) behaviors, but it's not a scenario that benefits our area of training. If I wanted her to hunt cats I would nurture this behavior by shooting them out of trees for her. With exposure to game the odor stuff takes care of itself. Build a ritual around that with voila. The term "prey drive" is much more useful to me when describing specific tool I want to see in a dog, not a complex set of behaviors. This gives me an idea of one, specific, very important thing I can build on to shape this dog into exactly what I want. Using a rag, ball, etc. that I control removes variables associated with live animals. Simplicity and specificity are things that I find very important in training.


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## will fernandez

Here you go Don...Real Airedales...the way they should all be.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=zQgiLrPFcuM


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## Joby Becker

will fernandez said:


> Here you go Don...Real Airedales...the way they should all be.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=zQgiLrPFcuM


what are you smokin Will..? that is not live prey...and dont you know Airedales don't play games...they are far too serious to attempt to do bitework with...what if a rat crawled up on the guys head, he could get killed....

Don...I did find the whole packrat thing amusing...MOST of us have dogs that display that same type of intense drive, yet somehow, we all seem to have some control over it... it is called CONTROL work...it involves training..


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## Don Turnipseed

Charles said


> I don't get the point of this thread at all.


Then don't read it. Seems pretty simple....unless of course your making an attempt at grandstanding yourself. :wink: Behavior is fascinating stuff isn't it.


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## Don Turnipseed

Joby Becker said:


> what are you smokin Will..? that is not live prey...and dont you know Airedales don't play games...they are far too serious to attempt to do bitework with...what if a rat crawled up on the guys head, he could get killed....
> 
> Don...I did find the whole packrat thing amusing...MOST of us have dogs that display that same type of intense drive, yet somehow, we all seem to have some control over it... it is called CONTROL work...it involves training..


Control work???? from the one that can't control is one dog because it has such high prey drive. Gimme a break Joby. The dog that has little lap dogs running out to get a piece of it on walks at least 3 times a week. Those little dogs got a pretty good idea what they are up against.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Joby Becker said:


> First of all...I am not talking about any pup in particular, or particular trait in a pup..past or current.
> 
> I was responding to the comment that all things that puppies do is in play, by Rick...and that they are not serious...
> 
> I would say that is not a true statement...I would agree that is a pretty common thing, but not applicable across the board.
> 
> I was referring to a puppy attacking someone/something with full aggression...not play....happens all the time with certain types of dogs.
> 
> If you look at pups at 5-6-7 weeks old, what you are seeing is not USUALLY human induced...
> 
> I have seen and heard of puppies fighting at 5-6 weeks old and removing body parts from eachother...I have seen and heard of pups with very extreme "guarding" behaviors, pups can also have serious prey drive, to kill small animals, that has nothing to do with "play", and as you pointed out, expression of herding traits is not done in play mode...
> 
> As to your question, I dont really think it matters if the dog was a "nut" or not, to imply a puppy is NOT serious, because someone might label him a "nut" is not something I would agree with...even if he fits the bill to some people, as a nut, he can still be a very serious nut...
> 
> make sense???
> 
> if I pick out one pup in particular, that did bloody up some people at a very young age...as an adult...I would say by most peoples standards he was probably a NUT...a very predictable nut. don't mess with his food, unless you were his handler, or his territory, or his family...and you would not be bloodied up.
> 
> I think compulsive PREY drive in small puppies, is much different than "play", it can be hardwired, and serious, as are some other traits, such as fighting, guarding..herding...etc...


Yep, I agree totally. Actually, I have one pup who is super possessive with dogs but not me. The other [bitch] growled at me with a stare when I put my hand on a toy in her mouth. I bet she thought she was serious. She's over that now.

T


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## Howard Gaines III

Charles Guyer said:


> I don't get the point of this thread at all. "Prey drive" is just a usefull term in regards to training. If we're not discussing training, why revise it? ... The term "prey drive" is much more useful to me when describing specific tool I want to see in a dog, not a complex set of behaviors. This gives me an idea of one, specific, very important thing I can build on to shape this dog into exactly what I want. Using a rag, ball, etc. that I control removes variables associated with live animals. Simplicity and specificity are things that I find very important in training.


 Prey drive is a behavior, the willingness to chase something, usually with little risk of injury to the animal! What is complex about that??? Prey drive can also be taught, the reason you have a defensive dog run the sleeve in a "praise circle" is to lower the defense and raise the prey element.

You can't put 20 ounces of liquid in a 12 ounce bottle! If the dog genetically isn't able to do a task, training IMO doesn't make it a sure thing. I can't take a poorly bred Lab and make it a hunter. The desire to stay in the marsh and find a downed duck, moving in and out of odor, is something a TRUE worker does...

One that wants to work, wants to please, and is biddible can quickly be run through the ranks to success.


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## Charles Guyer

Don Turnipseed said:


> Charles said
> 
> 
> Then don't read it. Seems pretty simple....unless of course your making an attempt at grandstanding yourself. :wink: Behavior is fascinating stuff isn't it.


 
I read it because I keep hoping beyond hope that you will eventually write something that makes sense. What would you like to see change? How would it make dogs better? Please just make a point other than everyone except you is an idiot. If I adopt your definition of "prey drive" will it make me a more effective trainer. Will it make you a better breeder?

If I wanted to do some grandstanding I would go over to your board and imply that you and others in your crowd don't have a clue of what they are doing with their dogs.


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## Charles Guyer

Howard Gaines III said:


> Prey drive is a behavior, the willingness to chase something, usually with little risk of injury to the animal! What is complex about that??? Prey drive can also be taught, the reason you have a defensive dog run the sleeve in a "praise circle" is to lower the defense and raise the prey element.
> 
> You can't put 20 ounces of liquid in a 12 ounce bottle! If the dog genetically isn't able to do a task, training IMO doesn't make it a sure thing. I can't take a poorly bred Lab and make it a hunter. The desire to stay in the marsh and find a downed duck, moving in and out of odor, is something a TRUE worker does...
> 
> One that wants to work, wants to please, and is biddible can quickly be run through the ranks to success.


I agree.


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## Bob Scott

Joby Becker said:


> what are you smokin Will..? that is not live prey...and dont you know Airedales don't play games...they are far too serious to attempt to do bitework with...what if a rat crawled up on the guys head, he could get killed....
> 
> Don...I did find the whole packrat thing amusing...MOST of us have dogs that display that same type of intense drive, yet somehow, we all seem to have some control over it... it is called CONTROL work...it involves training..



First rule of thumb when rat hunting.
Wrap duct tape around the bottom of your trousers. Those baggy Carhart trouser legs are a dark hole just waiting for a rat to hid in. :grin:


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## Ariel Peldunas

Don Turnipseed said:


> I hate to even broach the "big event", but, right there I started to realize that I had two trainers in the middle of extremely high prey dogs and they didn't recognize "high prey" because they wouldn't play with rags and balls. Right then I realized it was something else....but it wasn't prey drive at all that is always being discussed. Just obsessive behavior that is developed and bred for. Also the reason many seem to think prey drive is a 24/7 condition.


 
Don,

We were there to test if your dogs were naturally protective ...which they weren't. Then, we tested your dogs to see if they had any desire to chase a rag in order to evaluate their "prey" drive as it relates to training young dogs to bite ...which they didn't. Never did Dave nor I question how well your dogs hunt game or how their prey drive relates to that. We believe your dogs are highly driven to chase, catch and kill live game. However, that's not what we were there to test. There are really only two ways to motivate a dog to bite a man ...threaten him or something he values and see if he's willing to defend it or make it a game and teach him that biting can be fun (I know this is over simplified, but I'm trying to keep it short). When all of your dogs failed to show any desire to protect you, themselves, their territory or their resources, we attempted to see if the dogs were inclined to chase a "prey object." Perhaps we should have put a pack rat in the pen and tested to see if they would bite Dave over that?

You still seem to be missing the point that prey drive doesn't always have to refer to live game. Perhaps if we specified and called it rag drive or tug drive or ball drive, that would be better. But for the sake of simplicity, most protection/detection dog trainers use prey drive to refer to how well the dog can be motivated to chase and possess an object. Of course, things can always be broken down. But it's all semantics that you're arguing at this point. It seems, as always, your goal is to knock what others do in order to promote yourself.


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## will fernandez

Joby Becker said:


> what are you smokin Will..? that is not live prey...and dont you know Airedales don't play games...they are far too serious to attempt to do bitework with...what if a rat crawled up on the guys head, he could get killed....
> 
> Don...I did find the whole packrat thing amusing...MOST of us have dogs that display that same type of intense drive, yet somehow, we all seem to have some control over it... it is called CONTROL work...it involves training..


 
Now if you want to smoke you should get your Kush from Cali. but if you want an airedale you must go to germany. I bet this one could roam the mountains of northern california and run into a hog somewhere and win you a trophy or two on the schutzhund field http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myGWPVPnstw&feature=player_detailpage


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## Edward Weiss

The dog you see on the video is an exceptional sport dog that in Torino Italy (2007) WM placed 7th in a field more than 100 Mals and GSDs.
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs_details.php?id=33914&new_lan_en
Eyk''s litter brother Eddy similarly was a dominant VPG competitior.
I have imported several Airedales from these and similar lines, and my own dog Brisco VPG3 FH again from these DDR lines.

I am in Airedales because of their versatility. Check out http://huntingworkingairedales.org/ do get some idea where I think the breed is going here.
We have a long way to go in the USA after 4 to 5 decades of intense show domination of the breed.
I have seen Dons dogs and they are line bred tightly based on their big game work.
The Germans took another route with some quite serious service dogs like Ilko v Krebsforde who turned out to be a great sire and of all things produced a dog I imported here that works as a great ranch and cattle dog in Colorado










i introduced Brisco at age 9to PSA he had been a straight sleeve sport dog this is a first go at a hidden sleeve and he had never been allowed to sit on a car seat before...good fun


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## Aaron Rice

Edward Weiss said:


> The dog you see on the video is an exceptional sport dog that in Torino Italy (2007) WM placed 7th in a field more than 100 Mals and GSDs.
> http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs_details.php?id=33914&new_lan_en
> Eyk''s litter brother Eddy similarly was a dominant VPG competitior.
> I have imported several Airedales from these and similar lines, and my own dog Brisco VPG3 FH again from these DDR lines.
> 
> I am in Airedales because of their versatility. Check out http://huntingworkingairedales.org/ do get some idea where I think the breed is going here.
> We have a long way to go in the USA after 4 to 5 decades of intense show domination of the breed.
> I have seen Dons dogs and they are line bred tightly based on their big game work.
> The Germans took another route with some quite serious service dogs like Ilko v Krebsforde who turned out to be a great sire and of all things produced a dog I imported here that works as a great ranch and cattle dog in Colorado
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i introduced Brisco at age 9to PSA he had been a straight sleeve sport dog this is a first go at a hidden sleeve and he had never been allowed to sit on a car seat before...good fun


Was that in STL?


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## Charles Guyer

Aaron Rice said:


> Was that in STL?


Yes, and I had the pleasure of working Ed's Brisco when I was up there. Brisco is a damn fine example of a working dog, and Ed is a very kind and knowledgable man. If I were going to purchase an Airedale I would look to him for guidance.


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## Kadi Thingvall

Edward Weiss said:


> I am in Airedales because of their versatility. Check out http://huntingworkingairedales.org/


I'm going to poke around the site, it looks interesting. But first I have to stop laughing at the orange bordered photo right there on the front page, and it's caption  It just fits so well with this topic.


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## will fernandez

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I'm going to poke around the site, it looks interesting. But first I have to stop laughing at the orange bordered photo right there on the front page, and it's caption  It just fits so well with this topic.


 
Whats even funnier is that's Don's buddy. I believe that's the breeder of his newest dog. Ed isnt Stew the breeder of your dog?


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## Tracey Hughes

Seems to be quite a few Airedales getting a 0 in Protection at the higher events (out of the small number I have seen making it to a larger event). Nationals/Worlds. Quite a few I have seen can’t catch the helper on the escape bite..and these dogs are still being used at stud, which I find surprising.

At the 2011 Championships, 9 out of 30 got a Zero in protection. In 2011 it was 9 out of 27 dogs. Seems pretty high for a National level trial.

Makes me wonder what the state of the breed is in Germany and is it the dog or the training that is causing such issues.. I really like Airedales and would love to compete with one some day in the future. I appreciate any good dogs, regardless of their breed.


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## Gillian Schuler

Reading our official Swiss Kennel C'lub Magazine, I see that there are efforts to improve the Airedale. 2-3 were rejected at the Temperament Test in the Schutzdienst.

I've always thought of the Airedale as a fairly tough dog. I wouldn't have minded having one but Toni said no such ugly ..... is going to grace our homestead!! We got a Briard!! Not much difference, especially when its waded in the steam - they don't seem to like to swim. Out comes a bundle of fur with stork's legs!!

During the WWII they were used as messenger dogs due to thier unshakeable nerves.

I know unshakeable nerves don't make dogs that are protective of the homestead, etc. but somehow, along the line in Europe they seem to have lost some of their robustness, or their handlers have lol.

With other dogs, I can see how they lost their working abilities due to their "show abilities" but the Airedale was and is nothing to swarm about in terms of beauty (thank God!!).

I can only assume it was neglected but I do see efforts in Germany and Switzerland to bring back the Airedale in the Sport scene at least.!


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## Aaron Rice

Charles Guyer said:


> Yes, and I had the pleasure of working Ed's Brisco when I was up there. Brisco is a damn fine example of a working dog, and Ed is a very kind and knowledgable man. If I were going to purchase an Airedale I would look to him for guidance.


Thats what i thought i remember watching the dog but was up soon. I didnt see much but what i saw he was a good worker.


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## Don Turnipseed

will fernandez said:


> Whats even funnier is that's Don's buddy. I believe that's the breeder of his newest dog. Ed isnt Stew the breeder of your dog?


That is where Griff came from Will. I wanted unrelated genetics, I wanted line bred dogs. Stew had both. I wanted serious dogs. I will admit, I was toying with placing some pups into sport homes for testing. After actually getting to see what you folks are doing, thanks to Dave an Ariel, I have a drastically different view that does not include sport at all. Would feel about as comfortable putting the dogs in show or agility homes as sport. I really think I will stick to the more serious venues. Nothing wrong with sport if that is what floats your boat. I never been much into playing games which is all it is. Leads to many misconceptions about dogs by the players. I do have one going to sport that was previously promised. That is it. The rest will be placed in actual working environments. Stew and Ed have the most serious dales in the US in bitework and most any other work, that is why I chose those dogs. It would be doing the breed a disservice to place them into a sport where they would surely follow the dobies, rotties, shepards, and shortly, the mals and DS. The deterioration of breeds through sport work is as obvious as it is when showbreeders take a breed under their wing.....it is the kiss of death.


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## Edward Weiss

Quick vids of two dogs referred to in previous posts. The dog called a "Polish" Airedale is Eyk V Erickson...snipet of protection is from Turin Weltmeister ( all working breed) competition,
The second is of Don V Treffenwald in a small local show. Don went on to be top VPG Airedale in Germany a year later
Stew T and I just bought in Lennox, 12 week old half brother to Don.
My own devil girl Kasbah is niece of Don.

I know this stuff is probably boring but I think we are developing a great gene pool. In the HWA nationals this year it was obvious even in hunting venues where the high drives came from.
I thought of posting Brisco and the coyote but as they say a bit graphic for public forum.
A lot of potential in the breed yet I am sorry to have missed the old American lines of 20's to 40's when they were truly all rounders.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAysOiiFTMM

http://www.youtube.com/user/BoravomTreffenwald?feature=relchannel#p/a/u/1/4mARueOz2iA


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## will fernandez

Don...your statement is contradicting everything that Ed and Stew are working so hard to accomplish. Their dogs come from the sport world....not the imaginary hunting one.


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## Don Turnipseed

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Don,
> 
> We were there to test if your dogs were naturally protective ...which they weren't. Then, we tested your dogs to see if they had any desire to chase a rag in order to evaluate their "prey" drive as it relates to training young dogs to bite ...which they didn't. Never did Dave nor I question how well your dogs hunt game or how their prey drive relates to that. We believe your dogs are highly driven to chase, catch and kill live game. However, that's not what we were there to test. There are really only two ways to motivate a dog to bite a man ...threaten him or something he values and see if he's willing to defend it or make it a game and teach him that biting can be fun (I know this is over simplified, but I'm trying to keep it short). When all of your dogs failed to show any desire to protect you, themselves, their territory or their resources, we attempted to see if the dogs were inclined to chase a "prey object." Perhaps we should have put a pack rat in the pen and tested to see if they would bite Dave over that?
> 
> You still seem to be missing the point that prey drive doesn't always have to refer to live game. Perhaps if we specified and called it rag drive or tug drive or ball drive, that would be better. But for the sake of simplicity, most protection/detection dog trainers use prey drive to refer to how well the dog can be motivated to chase and possess an object. Of course, things can always be broken down. But it's all semantics that you're arguing at this point. It seems, as always, your goal is to knock what others do in order to promote yourself.


Tell you what Ariel. I am keeping most of this litter of 2 week old pups. I will pick up a vid camera and a fishing pole and show you how hard it is to get pups to chase things like rags. All pups like to play. You interpret it as all telling, I say any pup will play that game if that is what he is offered.

It is likje you said about your own dog Ariel, you wouldn't want to take any bets your Level 3 dog would protect you when not working the specific scenario it was trained for. The difference between real life and games. My dogs have always taken care of real situations for me. Ok, so they won't play games. I have no problem with that as long as they take care of the real situations.

As far as terminology.....as prey drive and other terms so loosly used, they were around long before anyone wrote the first traing book where they perceived chasing anything was prey drive. The same terminology has been the basis of breeding for how long? Yes, a long time. If these terms are so universally understood by trainers, why all the discussions that end up saying, "I think we are talking about the same thing...just using different terminology!". Why is a 24/7 condition of bouncing off the walls viewed as high prey. Why, it is confusing even to trainers. Compulsive behavior you create in your dogs is viewed as prey drive. Over time, the terminology takes on a skewed life of its own and breeders end up breeding for compulsive behavior instead of drives. Next, the most popular breeds fall by the wayside and a new breed victim is embraced. The writing is on the wall....even if you can't see it Ariel. Show breeders, to this day, deny they have ruined even one breed. Don't really expect sport folks to be any different.


----------



## Don Turnipseed

will fernandez said:


> Don...your statement is contradicting everything that Ed and Stew are working so hard to accomplish. Their dogs come from the sport world....not the imaginary hunting one.


Not really Will. Ed is one of the most leverl headed folks I know. He does sport work, but, news flash, he knows exactly what it is. Ed is a realist that loves super strong dogs and knows what he has. I have the utmost respect for Ed. If the sport world consisted of people with Ed's understanding of dogs, my previous post would have been unnesessary. There are darn few Ed's or Mike Schrieber's to be found....at least here. That being said, I will still place dogs in actual working venues. I have two to go to actual protection work right now. I have no problem with detection either. Just got to be something that circumvents the show mentality.


----------



## Ariel Peldunas

Don Turnipseed said:


> Tell you what Ariel. I am keeping most of this litter of 2 week old pups. I will pick up a vid camera and a fishing pole and show you how hard it is to get pups to chase things like rags. All pups like to play. You interpret it as all telling, I say any pup will play that game if that is what he is offered.
> 
> It is likje you said about your own dog Ariel, you wouldn't want to take any bets your Level 3 dog would protect you when not working the specific scenario it was trained for. The difference between real life and games. My dogs have always taken care of real situations for me. Ok, so they won't play games. I have no problem with that as long as they take care of the real situations.
> 
> As far as terminology.....as prey drive and other terms so loosly used, they were around long before anyone wrote the first traing book where they perceived chasing anything was prey drive. The same terminology has been the basis of breeding for how long? Yes, a long time. If these terms are so universally understood by trainers, why all the discussions that end up saying, "I think we are talking about the same thing...just using different terminology!". Why is a 24/7 condition of bouncing off the walls viewed as high prey. Why, it is confusing even to trainers. Compulsive behavior you create in your dogs is viewed as prey drive. Over time, the terminology takes on a skewed life of its own and breeders end up breeding for compulsive behavior instead of drives. Next, the most popular breeds fall by the wayside and a new breed victim is embraced. The writing is on the wall....even if you can't see it Ariel. Show breeders, to this day, deny they have ruined even one breed. Don't really expect sport folks to be any different.


Don,

You are correct. I am not sure my sport trained malinois would protect me when the chips are down. I don't deny that. I didn't get her as a personal protection dog to stake my safety on. That's why I have a gun. If she barks, that's all I need. I got her as a sport dog to compete with and to train for tasks that I enjoy and have a purpose for (cadaver detection, tracking, PSA). I am realistic about my dog's abilities. If I wanted a dog I could trust to protect me, I would find one with unwavering heart and commitment to bite regardless of the circumstances. I wouldn't be like most dog owners who believe my loving, loyal dog would know when it really mattered and would suddenly step up and protect me with its life. 

Although you will never admit it, your dogs do not have that heart. I could tell as soon as I walked through your gate ...before Dave was even in the picture. Your dogs were suspicious, but nervous. I slightly extended my hand to let one of them sniff me (I can't remember which one it was that was loose in the yard when I arrived) and it backed away ...and not with an assertive, confident "don't touch me until I'm ready" look. I am certain I could have run your dogs with no equipment ...just a video camera in hand. But you don't see it and you will never see it because this isn't the line of work you're in.

What makes you think your dogs can differentiate between the game and reality? And even if they can, why would they react out of fear? I can't take credit for this comment (but I'm not sure the person who said it wants to take credit), but do your dogs hate games so much that not only do they refuse to participate, but they will actually run from the game? Come on now Don. I understand you're stubborn and don't want to say you might be speaking out of turn, but you can't honestly believe that your dogs are actually naturally protective ... to the point that they will actually stand their ground and fight a man.

I don't want to turn this into a never ending argument, but you seem to think you have some expertise in the field of protection/sport dogs that allows you to see things that those of us who have been working dogs in these venues for years seem to have missed. Sure, we like dogs with so much drive that it becomes obsessive. Why? Because they will work harder and longer than less driven, obsessive dogs. And yes, those dogs can be a handful in the house. They want to work and are always looking for something to do. But they are not incorrigible and as they get older, they learn when it's time to work and when it's not. But obsession over a toy or to work and compulsive behaviors are two different things. I don't prefer dogs with compulsive behaviors because they tend to be the ones that have thin nerves and are overall more unstable. But I am fine with a dog that is always ready to go and has enough drive to work for as long as necessary.

You mentioned how obsessive your dog was over a pack rat. Why is it okay in that regard, but not when talking about my kind of working dogs? The difference is, we often times make many things "prey objects," rather than just live game, so the dogs are much more inventive when it comes to deciding what might be a toy. I could go on and on trying to educate you as to how I do things and why I evaluate and train a dog the way I do. The bottom line is, you clearly don't understand the difference. You have never seen a dog actually be willing to fight a man when the man doesn't show any fear. You haven't ever trained a dog for the purposes that I train dogs. I realize this and I also don't speak out of turn. I don't know the first thing about hunting hogs or bears or really any game for that matter with dogs ...so I don't share ignorant opinions about this. I stick to what I know and what I'm good at. 

So, with all that being said ...I have a new proposition for you. Pick your toughest dog and set all the rules. Mike Suttle and I will come out and test your dog with no equipment. Just man/woman vs. Don and dog. We can change whatever is necessary in order to make this as realistic as possible. In return, you can come to our place and test one of our dogs in the same manner (or more than one, if you'd like). Aside from galavanting in the worst neighborhoods we can find, hoping to get attacked, I don't know a better way to test a protection dog. At some point, we have to do our best to mimic reality in our tests and training. You felt the test with Dave was unrealistic and the dogs recognized it as a game ...so, let's do it again and improve upon what went wrong. What say you Don?


----------



## Joby Becker

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Don,
> 
> You are correct. I am not sure my sport trained malinois would protect me when the chips are down. I don't deny that. I didn't get her as a personal protection dog to stake my safety on. That's why I have a gun. If she barks, that's all I need. I got her as a sport dog to compete with and to train for tasks that I enjoy and have a purpose for (cadaver detection, tracking, PSA). I am realistic about my dog's abilities. If I wanted a dog I could trust to protect me, I would find one with unwavering heart and commitment to bite regardless of the circumstances. I wouldn't be like most dog owners who believe my loving, loyal dog would know when it really mattered and would suddenly step up and protect me with its life.
> 
> Although you will never admit it, your dogs do not have that heart. I could tell as soon as I walked through your gate ...before Dave was even in the picture. Your dogs were suspicious, but nervous. I slightly extended my hand to let one of them sniff me (I can't remember which one it was that was loose in the yard when I arrived) and it backed away ...and not with an assertive, confident "don't touch me until I'm ready" look. I am certain I could have run your dogs with no equipment ...just a video camera in hand. But you don't see it and you will never see it because this isn't the line of work you're in.
> 
> What makes you think your dogs can differentiate between the game and reality? And even if they can, why would they react out of fear? I can't take credit for this comment (but I'm not sure the person who said it wants to take credit), but do your dogs hate games so much that not only do they refuse to participate, but they will actually run from the game? Come on now Don. I understand you're stubborn and don't want to say you might be speaking out of turn, but you can't honestly believe that your dogs are actually naturally protective ... to the point that they will actually stand their ground and fight a man.
> 
> I don't want to turn this into a never ending argument, but you seem to think you have some expertise in the field of protection/sport dogs that allows you to see things that those of us who have been working dogs in these venues for years seem to have missed. Sure, we like dogs with so much drive that it becomes obsessive. Why? Because they will work harder and longer than less driven, obsessive dogs. And yes, those dogs can be a handful in the house. They want to work and are always looking for something to do. But they are not incorrigible and as they get older, they learn when it's time to work and when it's not. But obsession over a toy or to work and compulsive behaviors are two different things. I don't prefer dogs with compulsive behaviors because they tend to be the ones that have thin nerves and are overall more unstable. But I am fine with a dog that is always ready to go and has enough drive to work for as long as necessary.
> 
> You mentioned how obsessive your dog was over a pack rat. Why is it okay in that regard, but not when talking about my kind of working dogs? The difference is, we often times make many things "prey objects," rather than just live game, so the dogs are much more inventive when it comes to deciding what might be a toy. I could go on and on trying to educate you as to how I do things and why I evaluate and train a dog the way I do. The bottom line is, you clearly don't understand the difference. You have never seen a dog actually be willing to fight a man when the man doesn't show any fear. You haven't ever trained a dog for the purposes that I train dogs. I realize this and I also don't speak out of turn. I don't know the first thing about hunting hogs or bears or really any game for that matter with dogs ...so I don't share ignorant opinions about this. I stick to what I know and what I'm good at.
> 
> So, with all that being said ...I have a new proposition for you. Pick your toughest dog and set all the rules. Mike Suttle and I will come out and test your dog with no equipment. Just man/woman vs. Don and dog. We can change whatever is necessary in order to make this as realistic as possible. In return, you can come to our place and test one of our dogs in the same manner (or more than one, if you'd like). Aside from galavanting in the worst neighborhoods we can find, hoping to get attacked, I don't know a better way to test a protection dog. At some point, we have to do our best to mimic reality in our tests and training. You felt the test with Dave was unrealistic and the dogs recognized it as a game ...so, let's do it again and improve upon what went wrong. What say you Don?


Don's dogs have never bitten anyone in REAL situations..they showed some aggression...like millions of other dogs that are not going to do shit except that..that is it..but I am sure DON is quite sure they would have engaged and would have to be pryed of the guy, like he said they would when Dave and you went out there...

Ariel...if Don does allow you guys to come up there...and the dogs decide not to protect DON...can you PLEASE make sure one or more of the dogs realize IT IS NOT A GAME...any dog I have ever seen that would actually stand up to a man and could be used for protection, would at least protect ITSELF from a person, hell...most of the work done for protection is the dog perceiving a threat/challenge to itself, or its stuff or family.....a dog that will NOT protect itself, I would never count on to protect me...

i HAVE had a couple "natural protectors" in my life and they for surely would stand up for themselves..

oh..one more thing...can you come up here and test my dog as well with no equipment...I don't think I'll ever get a chance like that, I moved out of the hood 10 years ago...she is out of Arko/Truusje... I have not really worked her for PP...just sport type stuff, kept it all fun and games.....calm and friendly..might not even protect me, who knows, I just want to see if she would protect herself... then I would know she was viable for a first line of defense...


----------



## Ariel Peldunas

Joby Becker said:


> Don's dogs have never bitten anyone in REAL situations..they showed some aggression...that is it..but I am sure DON is quite sure they would have engaged and had to be pryed of the guy, like he said they would when Dave and you went out there...
> 
> Ariel...if Don does allow you guys to come up there...and the dogs decide not to protect DON...can you PLEASE make sure one or more of the dogs realize IT IS NOT A GAME...any dog I have ever seen that would actually stand up to a man and could be used for protection, would at least protect ITSELF from a person, hell...most of the work done for protection is the dog perceiving a threat/challenge to itself, or its stuff or family.....a dog that will NOT protect itself, I would never count on to protect me...
> 
> i HAVE had a couple "natural protectors" in my life and they for surely would stand up for themselves..
> 
> oh..one more thing...can you come up here and test my dog as well with no equipment...I don't think I'll ever get a chance like that, I moved out of the hood 10 years ago...she is out of Arko/Truusje... I have not really worked her for PP...just sport type stuff, kept it all fun and games.....calm and friendly..might not even protect me, who knows, I just want to see if she would protect herself... then I would know she was viable for a first line of defense...


Joby,

I think your request could be accommodated. However, I have a feeling a second "big event" will never transpire.

And I'm gonna go out on a limb and say I probably wouldn't be willing to test your dog without equipment. I've heard a little about her and what Arko produces. I'm not much of a risk taker. Mike, however, doesn't seem to mind taking those kind of chances. Maybe he'll be game!


----------



## Joby Becker

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Joby,
> 
> I think your request could be accommodated. However, I have a feeling a second "big event" will never transpire.
> 
> And I'm gonna go out on a limb and say I probably wouldn't be willing to test your dog without equipment. I've heard a little about her and what Arko produces. I'm not much of a risk taker. Mike, however, doesn't seem to mind taking those kind of chances. Maybe he'll be game!


I am sure he might..not sure if she is "prepared" for Mike..pretty raw, not alot of experience...but I would let him test her...the NO equipment is intriguing..guess if the dog committed to the fight, he could most likely safely choke her out...

Mike told me he never picks fights for his dogs, if YOU have that authority, I am guessing it is with his blessing as far as Don is concerned..which dog would Don be testing? IVO? Arko? or some green dog?  I say let the old man fight Don, at least he wont get the canine punctures..can't say what might happen as far as the old codgers brittle bones, from the molars..


----------



## Ariel Peldunas

Joby Becker said:


> I am sure he might..not sure if she is "prepared" for Mike..pretty raw, not alot of experience...but I would let him test her...the NO equipment is intriguing..guess if the dog committed to the fight, he could most likely safely choke her out...
> 
> Mike told me he never picks fights for his dogs, if YOU have that authority, I am guessing it is with his blessing as far as Don is concerned..which dog would Don be testing? IVO? Arko? or some green dog?  I say let the old man fight Don, at least he wont get the canine punctures..can't say what might happen as far as the old codgers brittle bones, from the molars..


Haha ...it is with his blessing. I think he is a little more inclined to let himself be drug into this one because he's not too fond of the idea of me picking the fight on my own. I guess I'm a bad influence.

His first suggestion was the old man ...but, honestly, we know that's a sure thing. I'd be more interested to see if my dog would actually bite someone when it wasn't obvious it was a "game." The point, really, isn't to see anyone get mauled, but to show the difference between a dog that is putting on an act and one that is actually willing to fight a man ...or has at least been shown how to have some of the tools to do so (i.e. our crazy training methods that ruin the breed).


----------



## Joby Becker

back to the topic...sort of..

DON is your dogs DRIVE for live game, compulsive?

compulsive is a term derived from the work compelled..

Merriam Webster definition of Compelled.

1. to drive or urge forcefully or irresistibly....

Sounds like DRIVE to me...like drive for a packrat or hog...or sleeve or suit, or scent..or badguy...

Can you please explain how WORKING DOG BREEDING / SPORT breeding has ruined the breeds you named? YOU are 100% WRONG, in my opinion....it is the SHOW/PET breeding that has ruined those breeds, again in my opinion...

What is REAL work..aside from hunting? in your mind...
I consider REAL work as PSD, Military, Functional Security and Functional Protection...as far as biting dogs go...and the truth is the vast majority of dogs used for this are from lines of dogs that have, and most of the individuals themselves have been bred and tested in the way of some form of SPORT... in case you were not aware..if the dog is serious and a REAL dog, he can still compete in sport, look at the 100's of thousands of police dogs worldwide...is police K9 SERIOUS work to you?


----------



## Randy Allen

I don't know what Don is on about, he keeps changing the conversation to whatever suits.

He doesn't train squat, he lets nature take it's course. Simple, the dog does the job or gets culled....one way or the other.

The out come of the 'big test' weren't hard to predict and it'd come out the same no matter how it was set up whether now, then or in the future. You, me or my wive could run any of his dogs into the Pacific ocean.
Then they'd swim for their lives.

Don, stop pretending you actually know anything beyond breeding a hunting dog. 
Er, well maybe you can help the newbies with house breaking.
But just stop with pretending you know anything about the training toward and using the nature of the dog.
You know zilch about the nature of a dog. By your own admission, for your purposes the dog does or doesn't. And for your purposes that's fine, but that doesn't mean the rest of us know nothing.
Start actually training something, then get back to us with your big insights.

That sounds fair to me.


----------



## Joby Becker

Randy Allen said:


> I don't know what Don is on about, he keeps changing the conversation to whatever suits.
> 
> He doesn't train squat, he lets nature take it's course. Simple, the dog does the job or gets culled....one way or the other.
> 
> The out come of the 'big test' weren't hard to predict and it'd come out the same no matter how it was set up whether now, then or in the future. You, me or my wive could run any of his dogs into the Pacific ocean.
> Then they'd swim for their lives.
> 
> Don, stop pretending you actually know anything beyond breeding a hunting dog.
> Er, well maybe you can help the newbies with house breaking.
> But just stop with pretending you know anything about the training toward and using the nature of the dog.
> You know zilch about the nature of a dog. By your own admission, for your purposes the dog does or doesn't. And for your purposes that's fine, but that doesn't mean the rest of us know nothing.
> Start actually training something, then get back to us with your big insights.
> 
> That sounds fair to me.


sounds fair to me...or post up those "natural protectors" and let someone test them... if is there it is there, where nature is concerned....


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## Doug Zaga

Do I see more Airedale video tests on the horizon????


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## leslie cassian

Here is what I've taken from this thread. 

As far as Don is concerned, hunt and prey are much the same thing. His dogs go out, hunt for prey/pigs and pursue them or do what they can to keep them at bay until someone can get there and kill the pigs. Often the dogs have to engage the pigs and injuries sometimes result. 

Prey drive, as protection/sport/obedience trainers define it is stupid and useless. It has no relevance for what he does with his dogs, his dogs do not have it, and therefore breeding for it will be the downfall of the breeds used for these activities. 

All dogs with high prey drive are crazy, bouncing off the wall, obsessive/compulsive disorder lunatics with clueless owners who, if they actually knew anything about 'real' dogs, would know that either they should train their dogs to behave, ie housetrain them by teaching them to lie on a pillow (I prefer the couch) or just get better dogs, because no good can come from these crackhead herders that are being bred for the kind of people who want that in a dog. 

People like me, who have crackhead herders that are good in the house and that do not need to be confined in crates all day, are some kind of rarity/anomaly. Or maybe my dogs are just crappers and I'm blind to it. Pretty sure that if some kind of shit hits the fan and an axe murderer crawls through my window, we're all ****ed. Then again, one of them might step up, and I'm counting on that as a deterent to axe murderers. 

Have I missed anything?


----------



## Joby Becker

leslie cassian said:


> Here is what I've taken from this thread.
> 
> As far as Don is concerned, hunt and prey are much the same thing. His dogs go out, hunt for prey/pigs and pursue them or do what they can to keep them at bay until someone can get there and kill the pigs. Often the dogs have to engage the pigs and injuries sometimes result.
> 
> Prey drive, as protection/sport/obedience trainers define it is stupid and useless. It has no relevance for what he does with his dogs, his dogs do not have it, and therefore breeding for it will be the downfall of the breeds used for these activities.
> 
> All dogs with high prey drive are crazy, bouncing off the wall, obsessive/compulsive disorder lunatics with clueless owners who, if they actually knew anything about 'real' dogs, would know that either they should train their dogs to behave, ie housetrain them by teaching them to lie on a pillow (I prefer the couch) or just get better dogs, because no good can come from these crackhead herders that are being bred for the kind of people who want that in a dog.
> 
> People like me, who have crackhead herders that are good in the house and that do not need to be confined in crates all day, are some kind of rarity/anomaly. Or maybe my dogs are just crappers and I'm blind to it. Pretty sure that if some kind of shit hits the fan and an axe murderer crawls through my window, we're all ****ed. Then again, one of them might step up, and I'm counting on that as a deterent to axe murderers.
> 
> Have I missed anything?


just one thing..why does my puppy who is being imprinted for detection or dual purpose PSD, who is NOT destined to be a pet, need to lay on a pillow? or have house manners?..why can he not just be obsessive for his objects and want them more than anything? why should I put the amount of control on him that would force him to lay on a pillow? will that be good for raising a working machine for REAL work, that someone should want for a fair price of 4-5000 dollars at 12-14 months old?

I did finally put the FOOT down on biting me or people in general...isnt that enough?


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## Lee H Sternberg

leslie cassian said:


> Here is what I've taken from this thread.
> 
> As far as Don is concerned, hunt and prey are much the same thing. His dogs go out, hunt for prey/pigs and pursue them or do what they can to keep them at bay until someone can get there and kill the pigs. Often the dogs have to engage the pigs and injuries sometimes result.
> 
> Prey drive, as protection/sport/obedience trainers define it is stupid and useless. It has no relevance for what he does with his dogs, his dogs do not have it, and therefore breeding for it will be the downfall of the breeds used for these activities.
> 
> All dogs with high prey drive are crazy, bouncing off the wall, obsessive/compulsive disorder lunatics with clueless owners who, if they actually knew anything about 'real' dogs, would know that either they should train their dogs to behave, ie housetrain them by teaching them to lie on a pillow (I prefer the couch) or just get better dogs, because no good can come from these crackhead herders that are being bred for the kind of people who want that in a dog.
> 
> People like me, who have crackhead herders that are good in the house and that do not need to be confined in crates all day, are some kind of rarity/anomaly. Or maybe my dogs are just crappers and I'm blind to it. Pretty sure that if some kind of shit hits the fan and an axe murderer crawls through my window, we're all ****ed. Then again, one of them might step up, and I'm counting on that as a deterent to axe murderers.
> 
> Have I missed anything?


Yeah Leslie! 

Can your dog shake hand like mine can? Actually my Dutchies are ambidextrous and can shake with either paw when they aren't tearing the joint down! 

I never crate them! I drug them with Rum in their Old Roy dinner

It think I need to give "noob" lessons on paw shaking.\\/


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## Joby Becker

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Yeah Leslie!
> 
> Can your dog shake hand like mine can? Actually my Dutchies are ambidextrous and can shake with either paw when they aren't tearing the joint down!
> 
> I never crate them! I drug them with Rum in their Old Roy dinner
> 
> It think I need to give "noob" lessons on paw shaking.\\/


what about HUGS...or SPREAD EM'!
my bitch has those down PAT!


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## leslie cassian

Joby - If you knew anything about dog training, you would know that lying on a pillow is important. Sadly, it appears, that like me, you know nothing about dogs or dog training and are part of the downfall of working breeds.

Lee - my dogs do not shake hands, but Ronan can sit up and beg. It's very cute, impresses pet people and I 'taught' it by clicker training.


----------



## Lee H Sternberg

Joby Becker said:


> what about HUGS...or SPREAD EM'!
> my bitch has those down PAT!


We can be the next best red hot TRAINING TEAM. I can picture our training videos.:-D


----------



## Lee H Sternberg

leslie cassian said:


> Joby - If you knew anything about dog training, you would know that lying on a pillow is important. Sadly, it appears, that like me, you know nothing about dogs or dog training and are part of the downfall of working breeds.
> 
> Lee - my dogs do not shake hands, but Ronan can sit up and beg. It's very cute, impresses pet people and I 'taught' it by clicker training.


Are you trying to horn in on Joby and my training video lessons?](*,)

If I have to we can go three ways and take a smaller piece of the glory and profit pie.#-o


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## leslie cassian

I'm in Lee. You'll like what I bring to the table. I can't tell you here... top secret training methods and all.


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## Joby Becker

Lee H Sternberg said:


> We can be the next best red hot TRAINING TEAM. I can picture our training videos.:-D


I will make the first video tomorrow...

Leslie...You are correct...one day maybe we can learn something


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## Don Turnipseed

LMAO
Leslie


> Prey drive, as protection/sport/obedience trainers define it is stupid and useless. It has no relevance for what he does with his dogs, his dogs do not have it, and therefore breeding for it will be the downfall of the breeds used for these activities.


Don't have to take my word on that Leslie. Dobies were hot, rotties were hot, GSD's were hot. Where are thy now? Been replace by the next victim. Get out of your dream world and just look at the record.

I can't help but be amused. I am not a trainer, I am not into sport work...for sure now, yet y'all just fall apart if I bring up any topic. I have my opinions, just like everyone else. Like I said, you had two trainers here that were unimpressed. They saw no rag drive. My heart is just broke my dogs won't chase a rag. I said I would get a video camera and show you how easy it is to get a dog to do that. Proves nothing to me if a dog chases a rag, but, apparently, it is everything to those with sport dogs. So, if I show you pups crazy about a rag, does that mean I got "real dogs"....as far as you know. Gotta go have a few "real" belly laughs.


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## Scott Dunmore

'I was toying with placing some pups into sport homes'. Who was waiting in line for one of these puppies? 
I'd think that the trainers were less concerned about the lack of enthusiasm for chasing a rag than the sight of your dog scrabbling over you in order to jump out the window of your truck, trying to run away from someone rattling a milk jug at them. 
That would seem like much more of a deal breaker for me.


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## Joby Becker

Don Turnipseed said:


> LMAO
> Leslie
> 
> 
> Don't have to take my word on that Leslie. Dobies were hot, rotties were hot, GSD's were hot. Where are thy now? Been replace by the next victim. Get out of your dream world and just look at the record.
> 
> I can't help but be amused. I am not a trainer, I am not into sport work...for sure now, yet y'all just fall apart if I bring up any topic. I have my opinions, just like everyone else. Like I said, you had two trainers here that were unimpressed. They saw no rag drive. My heart is just broke my dogs won't chase a rag. I said I would get a video camera and show you how easy it is to get a dog to do that. Proves nothing to me if a dog chases a rag, but, apparently, it is everything to those with sport dogs. So, if I show you pups crazy about a rag, does that mean I got "real dogs"....as far as you know. Gotta go have a few "real" belly laughs.


Don the dogs NOT being scared of people is far more important than chasing a rag...the videos I saw had nothing to do with a rag, but did show the dogs running away from a person...


----------



## brad robert

Don Turnipseed said:


> LMAO
> Leslie
> 
> 
> Don't have to take my word on that Leslie. Dobies were hot, rotties were hot, GSD's were hot. Where are thy now? Been replace by the next victim. Get out of your dream world and just look at the record.
> 
> I can't help but be amused. I am not a trainer, I am not into sport work...for sure now, yet y'all just fall apart if I bring up any topic. I have my opinions, just like everyone else. Like I said, you had two trainers here that were unimpressed. They saw no rag drive. My heart is just broke my dogs won't chase a rag. I said I would get a video camera and show you how easy it is to get a dog to do that. Proves nothing to me if a dog chases a rag, but, apparently, it is everything to those with sport dogs. So, if I show you pups crazy about a rag, does that mean I got "real dogs"....as far as you know. Gotta go have a few "real" belly laughs.


Don that really makes me think because most all of my terriers were mad for the flirt pole or the likes would play tug till exhaustion, and if they were not that into it they were in no time.

There terriers Don they chase "anything" that moves my dogs just liked chasing and grabbing hold of anything even if it wasnt live game they would still enjoy the mock kill and shake the hell out of it.


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## Don Turnipseed

"There terriers Don they chase "anything" that moves my dogs just liked chasing and grabbing hold of anything even if it wasnt live game they would still enjoy the mock kill and shake the hell out of it."

No doubt. Like I said, I can get them to do it also. Don't even have to be terriers Brad. So chasing a rag is the all important factor? That's the illusion games have created Brad. All I hear in the sport world is darn few dogs will actually bite without training. Take a gander at this and tell me why I seem to think most are drinking koolaid. Even dogs need a reason and games isn't doing much of a job of it apparently.
"Apr 30, 2011 ... 7 million dog bite victims annually in the USA.... ... Dog bite losses exceed $1 
billion per year, with over $300 million paid by homeowners ..."

Bet darn few of those dogs were trained to bite. Most would not bite playing sport games either....but, they will bite when the feel like biting.


----------



## mike suttle

Don Turnipseed said:


> "Apr 30, 2011 ... 7 million dog bite victims annually in the USA.... ... Dog bite losses exceed $1
> billion per year, with over $300 million paid by homeowners ..."
> 
> Bet darn few of those dogs were trained to bite. Most would not bite playing sport games either....but, they will bite when the feel like biting.


I would agree with you that most of them were not trained to bite Don, because most of the dogs who are trained to bite ony do so when they are told to, and they are usually owned by responsible people who do not allow accidental bites. The majority of the dog bites in the statistics you posted are from nervous fear biting squirrels that lash out and give the mail man a cheap shot in the back of the leg, or bite the hand of someone trying to break up a dog fight, or maybe chase the kid on a bike and bite him in the ankle. The media loves to turn that shit into something it is not. But the reality is that those bites are very seldom all out forward attacks with true ill intent. If any of those were actually tested and challenged how many of them would have stayed in there to fight? 1% maybe??
I am sure that I could set your dogs up to make them lash out and bite me, but will they choose to do it if they have other options, like an open window to jump out of, for example, or any other avenue for escape? I am sure that you know and understand your dogs behavior and how it applies to hunting, but even when it comes to your own dogs you dont understand the difference between a dog that shows aggression out of fear and one that has true forward aggression.


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## rick smith

OT and nothing to do with prey drive...

i agree with Mike on everything he said, but i think he left out one more important "type" of dog who bites....
a lot of people either feel the dog is confident and clear .. or a fear biter

unfortunately i deal a lot in another category...most are pets but some have been working dogs with bite training (done poorly)
these dogs are NOT fear biters at all imo
- instead, they have been conditioned and hardened to bite when handled; for a whole bunch of reasons that now trigger it.....no fear at all and in most cases the "harder" the correction the more amped they get
- imo these dogs can't be fixed with a stronger "come to Jesus" mentality ... they need a whole lotta counter conditioning ... otherwise they need to be put down ... iow, you can't beat it out of em
- and i don't care if it is a pom or presa .... only diff is the damage that can be done
- problem with these dogs is they are often very "sociable" when it's on their terms :-( .... and that's what makes em more dangerous than a 100% wild animal......i doubt this is a category figured in dog bites, but like Mike said, it's just another "bite", so it gets added in :-(


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## Travis Ragin

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Don,
> If I wanted a dog I could trust to protect me, I would find one with unwavering heart and commitment to bite regardless of the circumstances.


Actually,you won't be *finding* a dog that will devotedly protect you as you describe........this dog will have to be *trained* and molded into that.

Regarding the side arm....where I see an advantage that a dog can have over one, is that the gun can't perform anything on it's own....the dog can actually alert, and *react* to protect,sometimes before the owner even knows it.....But even then,the bond must be there....


"The Human combination is key"-Quinn




t


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## Travis Ragin

Don Turnipseed said:


> This is something I have thought of asking many times. Testing pups, or dogs, with things like flirt poles with rags and bumbers seems more like, for lack of a better universal term, testing play drive. Pups are brought up doing this by those that want say their dog is high prey drive. Just an observation, but, there are darn few dogs that won't chase a mouse that is right in front of them. Seems if you want to know what kind of prey drive th dog really has, you would do it without the visual. If a dog isn't willing to search for something he can't see, he has no prey drive. You can actually see hoiw strong the prey drive is by how long the pup/dog is willing to seach. Just seems counterproductive to test with a visual when most any dog that isn't dead will do that.



I think these tests are actually misleading in the selection of molosser breed pups as well.....The "predatory sequence" has an entirely different ending in their mind.


And to actually select for it(as a breeder & owner),would be selecting/encouraging for something that is inherently not in their makeup........essentilaly(however slowly) *changing * the traits that make them what they are.

as I see it




t


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## Travis Ragin

Joby Becker said:


> I am still keeping tabs on the breed, we may get involved again in the next year or so...I just met Mark Banks and his crew from Harijan Kennels, and hung out with them and talked presas for hours, when he came to pick up my pick male DS out of this past litter last week...
> ilg


Small World,

i asked/had Mark B. to work my dog when they stopped here on their "midwest" tour... by saturday night they were freezing from the cold! (i told them to come back in February! LOL)

I saw and played with this DS pup(never even asked who they got him from)....VERY confident and well-built 9wk. old!

What i find intriguing here is that puppy.....could actually be a "case study" in the *topic of this thread** ........what mark & I observed,was that this pup did have pretty decent rag "prey drive"........but we wouldn't call it high,and he didn't stay focused in on it..............BUT-that is because this pup was extremely smart and highly observant.....he would chase the end of the toy for a minute,and bite......but his eyes would always go up to the "source" of what was moving this thing.......then,he would release and try to go to the "head of the snake".. if you will.

Not at all aggressively,he was very much just playing.....but he was just so smart, that you had to try to literally out-think him,to stimulate him for any kind of "standard" test......there were about 15 or so dog folks there that day,but I'm quite positive Mark& I were the only one's who could see that.

So,I guess another opinion on the *OP by Mr. Turnipseed*,is that because these tests are so "standardized",that a lot of people new to DOGS & younger people just do an internet search on them and just as easy go to print it out ...pretty much any one can just take the steps with them when they go choose a pup......and just score a pup strictly on the MATH.......


As with your pick pup....I'm certain he would have scored lower on the "prey" and "focus" portion of X test........but that pup can be molded to protection sports,or PP,or service dog or even pheasant hunting from what I saw.


easy(for some lol) to see why he was top draft pick--- one of the most confident and well socialized 9 week old pups I've ever seen.



great job,

Little t


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## rick smith

good point Joby...i have seen that type of dog too

and regarding this "prey drive testing never ending thread" ... a lot of the "test" results depend on who is working the dog or pup

- owner of a gsd showed me a vid of her dog "tested" as having zero prey drive ... idiot handler was moving in to the pup and almost whacking it with the lure and it wanted no part of it :-( 
- then they put it on a very short tie out and pressured the hell out of it til it hackled up and started snapping to show all the fight drive this pup had :-(
- this was not a "backyard" test ... was at a formal club by a supposedly top level trainer :-(

seems that not everyone can just watch a yutube vid and then wave a stick with a rag attached and get the most out of the dog )


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## rick smith

i meant Travis 

but awhile back Joby was asking about "serious" pups and i tried to remember back a bit ... i saw a kai ken hunting dog with the tip of an ear gone ... asked how it happened and the owner said it was lost in a puppy litter fight 

i have seen a lot of nasty pups who are very vocal when they are scrapping around and get louder as they start biting another pup ???
- but unfortunately i just haven't had a chance to be around many intact litters for quite a few years


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## David Frost

I know it takes me less time to evaluate a dog for detection work that it does to read this thread. ha ha

DFrost


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## Charles Guyer

Don Turnipseed said:


> LMAO
> Leslie
> 
> 
> Don't have to take my word on that Leslie. Dobies were hot, rotties were hot, GSD's were hot. Where are thy now? Been replace by the next victim. Get out of your dream world and just look at the record.
> 
> I can't help but be amused. I am not a trainer, I am not into sport work...for sure now, yet y'all just fall apart if I bring up any topic. I have my opinions, just like everyone else. Like I said, you had two trainers here that were unimpressed. They saw no rag drive. My heart is just broke my dogs won't chase a rag. I said I would get a video camera and show you how easy it is to get a dog to do that. Proves nothing to me if a dog chases a rag, but, apparently, it is everything to those with sport dogs. So, if I show you pups crazy about a rag, does that mean I got "real dogs"....as far as you know. Gotta go have a few "real" belly laughs.


The trainers were unimpressed because your dogs were crap in every facet. I don't know why you get all this instant cred for being a hunting dog breeder. I have not seen anything that leads me to believe you are breeder of anything but yard dogs.


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## Lee H Sternberg

David Frost said:


> I know it takes me less time to evaluate a dog for detection work that it does to read this thread. ha ha
> 
> DFrost



If these posts continue much longer it will take less time to TRAIN a dog for detection work than it does to read this thread.#-o


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## Don Turnipseed

Come on Lee, don't you recognize a discussion when you see one. To bad you weren't out here yesterday. Went down and watched the pee wee's play ball. Man, haven't seen ball drive like that in years. They get so wound up over it now they all break down and cry if they miss the ball. Saddens me to think that only 1 in 10,000 really has the makings. Whole row of dads sitting there, reminiscent of the days they had that kind of drive. All doing some regimented boring job now.


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## Howard Gaines III

Don Turnipseed said:


> This is something I have thought of asking many times. Testing pups, or dogs, with things like flirt poles with rags and bumbers seems more like, for lack of a better universal term, testing play drive. Pups are brought up doing this by those that want say their dog is high prey drive. Just an observation, but, there are darn few dogs that won't chase a mouse that is right in front of them. Seems if you want to know what kind of prey drive th dog really has, you would do it without the visual. If a dog isn't willing to search for something he can't see, he has no prey drive. You can actually see hoiw strong the prey drive is by how long the pup/dog is willing to seach. Just seems counterproductive to test with a visual when most any dog that isn't dead will do that.


Want to get back on topic and sidebar the personal stuff...
Prey IS visual. I want to see young puppies visually tracking my movements or those of a rag. Testing pups as you say Don needs to be done on a lower level with the rag/wing/bumper. 

Searching for something is hunt drive and a refined spin of prey drive. The very reason I want a pup at 49 days of age... Some breeders can screw up a free BBQ and this says nothing about pups being "loaded" with well desired "tests" before you get them.

The more focus I see in a pup, the more I know it will carry this into adulthood. Labs which carry a bumper and hunt for it early are going to be smoking HOT in the field as adults! Just my spin on this thread..........


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## Don Turnipseed

Howard Gaines III said:


> Want to get back on topic and sidebar the personal stuff...
> Prey IS visual. I want to see young puppies visually tracking my movements or those of a rag. Testing pups as you say Don needs to be done on a lower level with the rag/wing/bumper.
> 
> Searching for something is hunt drive and a refined spin of prey drive. The very reason I want a pup at 49 days of age... Some breeders can screw up a free BBQ and this says nothing about pups being "loaded" with well desired "tests" before you get them.
> 
> The more focus I see in a pup, the more I know it will carry this into adulthood. Labs which carry a bumper and hunt for it early are going to be smoking HOT in the field as adults! Just my spin on this thread..........


The very reason I don't condition my pups prior to them coming out of the box. I want to see what the pup brings to the table. Myself, prey drive has, and always will have to do with survival. In that context, hunt is part of prey. Yes, the scents of live things are familiar to them normally, but it triggers them. Any pup that won't hunt for things, even food items, will never see the field because it has no prey drive. We have never had to agrre to discuss. As far as a training context of "hunt" in the trainers world, the rag, ball bumper, would be introduced to the pup, let the pup play with it, whatever, then hide it to see if he has enough desire to find it. We both know they won't without more work put into making the object important to the pup. That is why I dared to question what is really being tested.


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## will fernandez

Don

In the following link you will see the best puppy test I have ever seen. A 10 week old puppy with no training (just allowed to be a puppy) is placed in a room it has never been in before, with a person it does not know and objects it has never played with. This selection test is for a very serious mine and Ied detection dogs. I would love to take one of your pups to Bosnia next july to see how it does. Let me know if you are up to it...I will be there.http://www.npa-gtc.org/movies.htm click on standard puppy test video.

Let me know what drives are being looked for?


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## Don Turnipseed

Howard, since you are here and far more logical that most, I want to hear your opinion. I just ordered a camcorder. If I get a twitch and start working the pups....and the pups chase it like mad, does that tll me they have great prey drive? OK next, I throw a grey squirrel on the ground and they all leave the rag....did they lose their prey drive? Never had any? What?


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## Don Turnipseed

will fernandez said:


> Don
> 
> In the following link you will see the best puppy test I have ever seen. A 10 week old puppy with no training (just allowed to be a puppy) is placed in a room it has never been in before, with a person it does not know and objects it has never played with. This selection test is for a very serious mine and Ied detection dogs. I would love to take one of your pups to Bosnia next july to see how it does. Let me know if you are up to it...I will be there.http://www.npa-gtc.org/movies.htm click on standard puppy test video.
> 
> Let me know what drives are being looked for?


I would say "search" That is what it is called in the picture. Didn't look any father but they didn't call it search drive either. That is exactly what the dog is doing....searching.


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## Jennifer Coulter

Don Turnipseed said:


> I would say "search" That is what it is called in the picture. Didn't look any father but they didn't call it search drive either. That is exactly what the dog is doing....searching.


Don you have to click on the Standard Puppy Test video. You watched the wrong vid.


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## Erik Berg

Don, if you stop thinking preydrive=intresst in live animals when we talk about police/sportdogs it´s probably easier for you. If you are hunged up on the word prey call it something else then, some call it huntingdrive instead, meaning a dog that will chase moving objects and search for them if you hide them in long grass for example. The important thing is that people understands what behaviour we are talking about when using certain words. Policedogs are not hunting animals, hence why it´s more important to have a dog that likes to hunt and play with people or objects.

Most dogs with high intresst in playing with rags or balls also likes to chase rabbits for example, but it´s no use to have a policedog with extreme intresst in live animals if it has no motivation to search or chase a criminal. So, differ between preydrive for animals and objects in general when discussing police/sportdogs, a huntingdog with great preydrive is useless as a policedog if it drives is only limited to certain animals.


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## Travis Ragin

Here is a PD with extreme/obsessive interest in playing with tugs/toys

http://http://youtu.be/jaA69Rhu0n4





t


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## Doug Zaga

Travis Ragin said:


> Here is a PD with extreme/obsessive interest in playing with tugs/toys
> 
> http://http://youtu.be/jaA69Rhu0n4
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> t


T the link does not work.


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## Kadi Thingvall

Don Turnipseed said:


> Don't have to take my word on that Leslie. Dobies were hot, rotties were hot, GSD's were hot. Where are thy now?


Hot with who? Dobes and Rotts have had some use in military and police applications, but I don't believe they were ever used in higher numbers than GSDs, which are still used in large numbers. In Europe, especially France, Belgium and Holland, the Belgian Shepherd has also been used extensively in police and military applications for a long time. More recently the Belgians became popular with police and military in the US. Depending on who you talk to the GSD is still the most popular, for others it's the BSD, but both have always been more popular than the other breeds you mentioned. And the majority of these dogs come from breeding programs that utilize sport dogs. 

The only groups I can think of that the Dobe, Rott, and GSD were "hot" with were the back yard tough dog wannabe owner's, and the familes who just wanted a dog they thought would be a good PPD. The tough dog wannabe owners have since moved on to other "tough dog" breeds, some Malinois but mainly the bully and mastiff breeds. The PPD families have added more breeds to their list, but still purchase Dobes, Rotts, GSD, etc also. That's where a lot of show line dogs end up. But considering these groups aren't exactly the foundation or base for any breed and it's working abilities, their current choices in breeds has little IMO to do with the overall health of the breed as a working dog.


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## Don Turnipseed

LOL, good grief Kadi, you sound like a noobie. Look at what the LE agencies used....Dobies were the # 1 dog for a while and it progressed through the rest. Maybe you just aren't old enough to know the trends. Wanna see, what is hot, look at whe LE is using.


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## Edward Weiss

Keeping up with the "Prey Drive" thread it occurred too me, that in German this translates as "Beutetrieb" 
Trieb is drive...Beute literally translates to Booty, or loot. 
Standard "Wesen" or temperament descriptions of performance dogs use this term, and in this context its not hunting, its chasing and taking possesion.
I always translated Beutetrieb to prey drive.


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## will fernandez

Don Turnipseed said:


> LOL, good grief Kadi, you sound like a noobie. Look at what the LE agencies used....Dobies were the # 1 dog for a while and it progressed through the rest. Maybe you just aren't old enough to know the trends. Wanna see, what is hot, look at whe LE is using.


 

Don the more you respond in this thread the worse it gets for you.


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## Don Turnipseed

will fernandez said:


> Don the more you respond in this thread the worse it gets for you.


LOL. Guess that depends on ones perspective Will. I have seen em come and go. Seen these breeds when they were good, see what they are now. Of course, it is the show breeders right? Wrong. It is the breeding for games just as much. Don't kid yourself Will.


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## susan tuck

will fernandez said:


> Don the more you respond in this thread the worse it gets for you.


Isn't that the truth!!! I'm actually almost starting to feel really sorry for the joker, he's his own worst enemy, it's as if it doesn't even register with him that he's just making himself look dumber and more desperate with each successive post. His last few posts were just nuts.


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## Don Turnipseed

susan tuck said:


> Isn't that the truth!!! I'm actually almost starting to feel really sorry for the joker, he's his own worst enemy, it's as if it doesn't even register with him that he's just making himself look dumber and more desperate with each successive post. His last few posts were just nuts.


Susan is here, close the thread. It can only go downhill from here.


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## Don Turnipseed

Before this thread gets closed because of Susans arrival, let's quit playing games and cut to the chase. If I put up vids of pups going crazy with a twitch.....does that prove they have prey drive in spite of Dave and Ariels assesmment? It is a catch 22 folks. You think prey drive is based on rag drive for lack of a better term. Only other thing it could be is that the two testors can't see the forrest for the trees. Is the rag/ball test flawed or what? Heads up, Curt White brought a puppy bumper in here on a rope several years ago and all he got back was a shredded bumper. Some of you know Curt. Went to a club in Canada out of Wa. Let's hear from y'all. Don't cur now. You say rag drive= prey drive. If I show you pups going nuts because I conditioned them like you do, how you going to explain it . My dogs are different or what? Catch 22 here . Hell, it is Saturday night. Lets get this done as it is getting boring.....and Susan has showed....very predictably. :wink:


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## Ariel Peldunas

Don Turnipseed said:


> Before this thread gets closed because of Susans arrival, let's quit playing games and cut to the chase. If I put up vids of pups going crazy with a twitch.....does that prove they have prey drive in spite of Dave and Ariels assesmment? It is a catch 22 folks. You think prey drive is based on rag drive for lack of a better term. Only other thing it could be is that the two testors can't see the forrest for the trees. Is the rag/ball test flawed or what? Heads up, Curt White brought a puppy bumper in here on a rope several years ago and all he got back was a shredded bumper. Some of you know Curt. Went to a club in Canada out of Wa. Let's hear from y'all. Don't cur now. You say rag drive= prey drive. If I show you pups going nuts because I conditioned them like you do, how you going to explain it . My dogs are different or what? Catch 22 here . Hell, it is Saturday night. Lets get this done as it is getting boring.....and Susan has showed....very predictably. :wink:


Don, 

What exactly is your point or question or argument or whatever? Seems you just want to have the last word.

Sure, you can prove that you can build prey drive in your pups. I'm not sure what that has to do with me not "seeing the forest for the trees." All I saw when I came out there were a bunch of dogs that had no desire to protect you or anything of value to them with no desire to chase a rag ...which is how I would evaluate prey drive for protection dog candidates. You agreed, after two of your dogs showed their yellow bellies, to let us see if any of your dogs would chase or play tug with a rag. They didn't ...at least not to the standard I would like to see in a protection dog candidate. I'm not sure why, suddenly, you need to prove you can create drive for a rag in your dogs. You even said while we were there that if you had exposed them to it as puppies and had not exposed them to live game that the outcome would have been different. No one is arguing with you.

What we are arguing with you about is that you seem to think the way we test for working potential in protection dog candidates is stupid and useless. You seem to think you know it all and now, you can show your dogs chasing a rag and that's all there is to preparing a dog to eventually fight a man. You just don't get it and you never will. It's not just about prey drive for a rag or a ball ...it's what that drive can be used for. But, aside from prey drive (as it's useful to us), the dog also needs to have strong, stable nerves and confidence ...something your dogs clearly lack. 

Perhaps if you were a tad more open minded and willing to admit you didn't know everything, you could understand how to test for and develop these drives and characteristics in your dogs to make them suitable protection dog candidates. Showing me a video of your pups chasing a rag shows me that they have prey drive in a way that would be useful for me to begin training as a protection dog candidate. There are many other tools the pup would need, but at least that's a start. I would have no use for a dog that will only show prey drive for live game. If that's all that matters to you, great. Stick to what you know and let that be the end of it. But, if you want to criticize what we do, learn more about it before you continue to stick your foot in your mouth. You, my friend, are the one who cannot see the big picture.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

So, is he gonna test whether the Griffin stud dog can transmit his genetics in the area of objec/prey drive? Or will the pups be from his line without the outcross influence?

Terrasita


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## Bob Scott

" Look at what the LE agencies used....Dobies were the # 1 dog for a while".

 I'm older then most here, maybe all :lol:, and have seen the beginning of dogs used for LE street K9 in the States. St. Louis was one of the first, with Baltimore Maryland and St. Paul Minnesota, to start K9 units in the mid-late 50s. I don't recall even seeing a dobe here in St. Louis. It's ALWAYS been GSD. GSDs are still the #1 breed here.
The dobes popularity was right after WWII as the Marine "devil dogs." As early as I can remember they were mostly back yard/junk yard guard dogs and the early version of baddass bad guy dogs. 
They were good dogs in their day but never as street K9s in any numbers at all. 
I would LOVE to see anyone show stats on where they were "the #1 dog for a while" with LEO.
NOW, looking back at the very early LE K9s in Europe the Dale was used fairly often. Is that how they were ruined?


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## Gillian Schuler

"I'm older then most here, maybe all"

Not quite!!


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## leslie cassian

Don, you do realize that the desire to chase a fluttering rag is not the only criteria for the selection of a dog? It's just one piece of the whole package. Sorry for pointing out the obvious to the rest of you.

My little foster mal had tons of prey drive. Still didn't stop him from being a pos from crap breeding. Sweet puppy, but no manwork candidate. Even I could see that.


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## Lee H Sternberg

Bob Scott said:


> " Look at what the LE agencies used....Dobies were the # 1 dog for a while".
> 
> I'm older then most here, maybe all :lol:, and have seen the beginning of dogs used for LE street K9 in the States. St. Louis was one of the first, with Baltimore Maryland and St. Paul Minnesota, to start K9 units in the mid-late 50s. I don't recall even seeing a dobe here in St. Louis. It's ALWAYS been GSD. GSDs are still the #1 breed here.
> The dobes popularity was right after WWII as the Marine "devil dogs." As early as I can remember they were mostly back yard/junk yard guard dogs and the early version of baddass bad guy dogs.
> They were good dogs in their day but never as street K9s in any numbers at all.
> I would LOVE to see anyone show stats on where they were "the #1 dog for a while" with LEO.
> NOW, looking back at the very early LE K9s in Europe the Dale was used fairly often. Is that how they were ruined?


I might have you beat on the age thing - 10/20/1946. I don't like getting old.](*,)

GSD's have been the choice LE dogs as long as I can remember. As everyone knows lately Mals have gotten popular.


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## susan tuck

Don Turnipseed said:


> LOL, good grief Kadi, you sound like a noobie. Look at what the LE agencies used....Dobies were the # 1 dog for a while and it progressed through the rest. Maybe you just aren't old enough to know the trends. Wanna see, what is hot, look at whe LE is using.


 
:lol::lol::lol: 
Don I would personally like to thank you for the entertainment, you have given me some good laughs ever since your dogs got chased.


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## Don Turnipseed

It is good to see Mike Suttle back. Howard also. Just gotta offer something besides the usual crap. But, Mike brought up fear biters, Rick talked about dogs that bite. Why is it, people in bitesports, when trying to convince others dogs won't bite, always forget one on thje largest segments of dogs that bite. The territorial dogs are not fear biters but constitute a large portion of those dog bite figures. They bite if you are in their yard they bite if you touch their food. But, you would think they didn't exist.


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## Guest

Don Turnipseed said:


> It is good to see Mike Suttle back. Howard also. Just gotta offer something besides the usual crap. But, Mike brought up fear biters, Rick talked about dogs that bite. Why is it, people in bitesports, when trying to convince others dogs won't bite, always forget one on thje largest segments of dogs that bite. The territorial dogs are not fear biters but constitute a large portion of those dog bite figures. They bite if you are in their yard they bite if you touch their food. But, you would think they didn't exist.


Most of those so called territorial dogs are fear biters with bad nerves who never have been anywhere except there own yard.If and when they bite it isn't forward and bite/nip and run maybe back and forth, however this has little to nothing to do with prey.


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## Don Turnipseed

leslie cassian said:


> Don, you do realize that the desire to chase a fluttering rag is not the only criteria for the selection of a dog? It's just one piece of the whole package. Sorry for pointing out the obvious to the rest of you.
> 
> My little foster mal had tons of prey drive. Still didn't stop him from being a pos from crap breeding. Sweet puppy, but no manwork candidate. Even I could see that.


Yes, I realize that Leslie....but it is the first thing evaluators look at and is probably the key element as to their first impression of a dog......so for many, it makes or breaks them. If I had a kennel that specialized in sportdogs, I would fire all pups up on rags and balls, just like most probably do if the have any sense.


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## Don Turnipseed

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> So, is he gonna test whether the Griffin stud dog can transmit his genetics in the area of objec/prey drive? Or will the pups be from his line without the outcross influence?
> 
> Terrasita


Oh, Terrasita, you poor thing. You try so hard but seem to always miss the boat. I will gladly show you pictures of any pups. Puppies #1 order of the day is play. They all do it.


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## Don Turnipseed

susan tuck said:


> :lol::lol::lol:
> Don I would personally like to thank you for the entertainment, you have given me some good laughs ever since your dogs got chased.


LOL Susan, I know it couldn't be the piece on the Pee Wee ball players cause that would have been over your head.


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## Ariel Peldunas

Don Turnipseed said:


> It is good to see Mike Suttle back. Howard also. Just gotta offer something besides the usual crap. But, Mike brought up fear biters, Rick talked about dogs that bite. Why is it, people in bitesports, when trying to convince others dogs won't bite, always forget one on thje largest segments of dogs that bite. The territorial dogs are not fear biters but constitute a large portion of those dog bite figures. They bite if you are in their yard they bite if you touch their food. But, you would think they didn't exist.





Jody Butler said:


> Most of those so called territorial dogs are fear biters with bad nerves who never have been anywhere except there own yard.If and when they bite it isn't forward and bite/nip and run maybe back and forth, however this has little to nothing to do with prey.


Thank you Jody for trying to help educate Don. It becomes increasingly more obvious that he's never really dealt with dogs that bite out of confident, forward aggression ...otherwise, he'd know the difference. 

I'm training a 6 month old lab/hound cross right now that was biting his owners over food and toys. Two trainers before me had worked with the dog and said he had no hope ...he was the type of dog that would fight until death and had no quit. Do you want to guess how many times he tried to bite me before he quit or how long it even took me messing with his food and toys to even get him to try and bite me? 

Dogs are opportunists. If they sense they can get in a cheap shot or push their owners or weaker humans around, they will. If they show mild aggression and get the reaction they are seeking - the human showing fear and backing down, they will continue to exhibit that behavior and escalate when necessary to continue getting the reaction they want. Weak humans who let their puppies and pets get away with growling, snapping and other mild forms of aggression create most of the nervy, territorial, fear biters. Those dogs have no idea how to actually use their aggression in a product manner to protect their home or owners from actual threats, they just bite the weaker humans they are raised with and learn how to walk all over. Sure, in training young working puppies, we encourage this type of aggression and then help the dogs learn how to use it ...along with teaching them how to chase and properly grip rags or sleeves. The thing is, these puppies are selected from lines that produce confident dogs that will actually stay and fight when things get real. Unfortunately, Don cannot tell the difference between a dog like that which has been raised, conditioned and trained to believe it's big and bad and will be able to win in a fight with any human and the majority of the dogs he is referring to that back down the second someone actually stands up to their challenge.

I'm certain Don believed his dogs would protect him because they barked or showed mild aggression towards someone who wasn't terribly intimidating. And that person probably backed down immediately because that's the reaction of most people who don't know any better ...get away from the barking, scary looking dog. But, much to Don's surprise, when a human actually moved forward to meet the dog's display of aggression and call its bluff, the dog had none of the tools to actually understand how to deal with that threat ...which is why they all ran and will still run.

Prey drive, chasing and biting a rag/tug/sleeve/suit, biting hard and full, defense drive, teaching a dog that more aggression will eventually make the threat go away ...these are all steps in training a realiable protection dog that can actually do the job. Any dog can look scary behind a fence and intimidate 95% of people out there. Maybe that's all Don wants. But when you need to take a dog out of their comfort zone and trust that it will have the heart to engage a threat regardless of what's thrown at it ...there are very few dogs that can fit that bill.


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## Ariel Peldunas

The similarity between human behavior and dog behavior is uncanny sometimes. 

I just finished writing about the dogs that are tough when dealing with a weak adversary, but resort to backing up into a corner showing big displays of aggression and taking cheap shots because they lack the tools/confidence to show any real forward aggression when faced with a real threat. Then I read the last few posts that I've missed and get the feeling that's exactly what's going on in this thread right now.


----------



## susan tuck

Don Turnipseed said:


> Yes, I realize that Leslie....but it is the first thing evaluators look at and is probably the key element as to their first impression of a dog......so for many, it makes or breaks them. If I had a kennel that specialized in sportdogs, I would fire all pups up on rags and balls, just like most probably do if the have any sense.


:lol::lol::lol::lol:
You poor thing, 2 + 2 does NOT = 3, Don. You are SO unbelievably clueless, but please don't stop, you have a lot of comedic value at least. You have no clue what evaluators look for, you just make really bad assumptions based on what you read on a message board.


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## Edward Egan

Don, I'm sure you could train prey drive in your dogs to a point, but natural prey drive would look much different.

A puppy that is on your ankles every time you move from one room to another, or chases every leaf that blows buy etc. is natural and spontanous prey drive. Chasing a rag that's presented as a confined prey object is another that most likely could be trained in most puppies as long as it was fun for the dog.

I've skimmed over this tread and it seems your trying to justify your dogs lack of prey, lack of courage and a strong survival drive (escape big bad guy) by dishing the time honored and successful methods of evaluating puppies for bite work. It seems pretty obvious and silly to me, but whatever.


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## susan tuck

susan tuck said:


> :lol::lol::lol::lol:
> You poor thing, 2 + 2 does NOT = 3, Don. You are SO unbelievably clueless, but please don't stop, you have a lot of comedic value at least. You have no clue what evaluators look for, you just make really bad assumptions based on what you read on a message board.


Forgot to include what he thinks Ariel and Dave showed him. This is a whole 'nuther thing. Funny how contrite he was to their faces but look at his big talk now. Kind of like his dogs.

From there you have done nothing but tie yourself into a pretzel trying to explain why EVERYONE is on the wrong track - except for you (the guy with the dogs that get chased).......which is honestly the funniest joke of all. 

I guess the only question left to answer is are you really as dumb as you portray yourself to be or are you honestly so delusional you think for a moment anyone actually believes you know what you're talking about?


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## Don Turnipseed

susan tuck said:


> :lol::lol::lol::lol:
> You poor thing, 2 + 2 does NOT = 3, Don. You are SO unbelievably clueless, but please don't stop, you have a lot of comedic value at least. You have no clue what evaluators look for, you just make really bad assumptions based on what you read on a message board.


No, Susan, had nothing to do with what I read here. I waited till I saw it in person. What I saw left me in a semi state of shock. Let me explain, since Ariel is making over what she percieves I don't know. Two trainers come into a yard, which, contain two dogs under the age of what, 5 years. All others are 5 to 11 years and raised outdoors their entire life. No secret was made that they will not chase rags or ball. Yet, they had to try it. Been dicussed many times. Dogs been raised in contact with very few people. Dogs kill live things. Expecting to see something else tells me are not dog people, they are at best, trainers. Either that, or they really have no capacity for putting 2 and 2 together. They have learned that this action will possibly get a specific reaction. Since Mike mentioned forward aggression...two others thought it sounded good, Ariel being one. Just so Ariel understands, all territorial dogs are not fear biters. Most dogs that bite, do so as a warning. That does not make them fear biters. They do it to each other as much as they do with people. Many people just haven't observed enough behavior to connect the dots. Real forward aggression is not something you see in the mainstream dog. As a matter of fact, you will see very little real forward aggression in sport dogs or it wouldn't be so hard to train them to bite. 
To try and pass 7 million bites a year off as fear bites is absurd.


----------



## David Frost

Lee H Sternberg said:


> I might have you beat on the age thing - 10/20/1946. I don't like getting old.](*,)
> 
> GSD's have been the choice LE dogs as long as I can remember. As everyone knows lately Mals have gotten popular.


Hey old man - - - 1/8/47 here. just a kid. 

I worked with MWD from '66 to 88, nearly 13 years of that time was at the DOD Dog School at Lackland. I've been in civilian law enforcement (two years in Federal service '88 to 90) since '90. I can count the number of Dobes I've seen on one hand. They just aren't common. I have seen some WWI and WWII photos where Dobes were used, not sure exactly what capacity.

DFrost


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## Don Turnipseed

Edward Egan said:


> Don, I'm sure you could train prey drive in your dogs to a point, but natural prey drive would look much different.
> 
> A puppy that is on your ankles every time you move from one room to another, or chases every leaf that blows buy etc. is natural and spontanous prey drive. Chasing a rag that's presented as a confined prey object is another that most likely could be trained in most puppies as long as it was fun for the dog.
> 
> I've skimmed over this tread and it seems your trying to justify your dogs lack of prey, lack of courage and a strong survival drive (escape big bad guy) by dishing the time honored and successful methods of evaluating puppies for bite work. It seems pretty obvious and silly to me, but whatever.


Better keep skimming then Edward, My dogs have extreme prey drive. Don't need to train it. But, I will need to encourage playing with balls and rags....that is jhat trainers call prey drive. Two totally different things. Most pople into bitework have been told to encorage pups in these endeavors. The thread really had nothing to do with my dogs, just seems that that will be the reason for all posts I make from here on out. I bring up the same type of topics I did before my dogs were tested. Yes, they have always pissed people off....but now I an doing it because of the tests. That's bullshoit but it's ok as long as it doesn't derail every thread. Never would have done it if it was going to bother me. You have to look at it from my persective Edward, I have produced dogs that have excelled in a lot of venues. Most all, other than obedience titles, are state certified, not AKC and such. Takes a lot to shake me. Most venues require dogs of immpecable temerament, but, I just don't know what things like balanced dogs are according to ???? Nope, I probably wouldn't know a good dog if I saw one. It is just all in a days fun for me Edward.


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## susan tuck

No Don, you aren't pissing anyone off, the only one who's pissed is YOU. Make no mistake, everyone is simply laughing at your folly. You simply make yourself such an easy target, it's difficult to resist ridiculing you.


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## Ariel Peldunas

Don Turnipseed said:


> No, Susan, had nothing to do with what I read here. I waited till I saw it in person. What I saw left me in a semi state of shock. Let me explain, since Ariel is making over what she percieves I don't know. Two trainers come into a yard, which, contain two dogs under the age of what, 5 years. All others are 5 to 11 years and raised outdoors their entire life. No secret was made that they will not chase rags or ball. Yet, they had to try it. Been dicussed many times. Dogs been raised in contact with very few people. Dogs kill live things. Expecting to see something else tells me are not dog people, they are at best, trainers. Either that, or they really have no capacity for putting 2 and 2 together. They have learned that this action will possibly get a specific reaction. Since Mike mentioned forward aggression...two others thought it sounded good, Ariel being one. Just so Ariel understands, all territorial dogs are not fear biters. Most dogs that bite, do so as a warning. That does not make them fear biters. They do it to each other as much as they do with people. Many people just haven't observed enough behavior to connect the dots. Real forward aggression is not something you see in the mainstream dog. As a matter of fact, you will see very little real forward aggression in sport dogs or it wouldn't be so hard to train them to bite.
> To try and pass 7 million bites a year off as fear bites is absurd.


First, let's address what happened when Dave and I went to California. Don wanted to prove that his dogs would protect him. He chose two dogs that he felt were the most likely to defend his safety, their territory, whatever. We all know how that went. Then, after sitting down and eating some sandwiches and talking about what happened, Dave and I explained to Don how we select and train working dog candidates. Sure, older dogs can be tested with more pressure to see if they have any drive to engage a threat, but generally, we prefer to try to teach the dogs foundation bite work in a setting that is less stressful and produces better results. I then offered to test a young female and his imported male to see if they had the type of prey drive we would use to begin foundation bite work. Sure, Don said he knew the older dogs wouldn't chase rags or balls because they got too much satisfaction out of chasing and killing live animals. But, he said he would be interested to see if any of the younger dogs that hadn't been hunted would have drive for a rag. So, that's what we did. Don makes it seem like we went out there and twisted his arm to let us prove that his dogs wouldn't chase a rag. I even have video of his young female showing a little interest in it ...and my voice may even be on there telling Don what I was seeing and what I thought. It's just silly to me how Don likes to turn things around to make it seem like we told him all his dogs were duds because they wouldn't chase a rag. If nothing else, I have that impression because his dogs ran from Dave after Don picked a fight for them.

It's clear that arguing with Don is useless. According to him, he's encountered plenty of dogs that are confident, guardians willing to protect their owners with their lives. I must live in a sheltered little world because I've seen maybe one that would do so without proper training.

Second, thanks for trying to educate me Don. Again, I tried to simplify my argument for sake of space and time. Sure, not ever territorial biter is biting out of fear. I get it. But, I think the point of this discussion is to try to address why prey drive is important and how that relates to protection dog training. Obviously, we have digressed a bit and have begun to address the bigger issue of what makes a dog a suitable protection dog. And really, I think the answer is confident, forward aggression or at least strong defensive aggression ...to the point that the dog will take that aggression beyond the confines of its kennel or the corner of its yard. I'm sure if Dave or I had pushed your dogs into a corner, they would have snapped ...maybe even bit and held. But what good does that do me if that dog can't be molded to stand at the gate and engage a threat or, better yet, pursue a threat beyond the borders of its comfort zone?

There are a lot of people who have big, tough dogs behind a gate or a window. And those dogs might bite a child or a weak adult who shows fear. But is that useful aggression? What happens when someone comes at that dog with anger and equal aggression? What happens when that dog is taken somewhere new? Those tough, territorial dogs fall apart ...and I think you saw proof of that right in your own back yard.

Finally, where are you getting your statistics, Don? 7 million dog bites a year? I have to say, I'm a skeptic. Could be true ...can you provide me a resource that lists that statistic? Just on a cursory search, I saw that of the 33 fatal dog bites in 2010, 61% occured to children. Are these the types of dogs I should be looking for?

You're talking in circles now, Don. You throw a bunch of opinons shrouded as fact out there and expect us to believe you know something we don't. Let's make this a useful discussion. Educate me and the rest of the members reading this thread. How do you propose a reliable protection dog is made? What experience do you have and what evidence have you seen to support your arguments? I've seen plenty to support mine. I'm packing my house right now, but once I get to my destination, I'll provide some examples to support my philosophy. You seem to think prey drive, as it's useful to me, is not a reasonable indication of a dog's ability to be trained for protection work (and just to be clear, prey drive is only one aspect of the testing/training). What then, should I be looking for? No one doubts your dogs have prey drive. But the manner in which their prey drive is manifested is of no use to me ...unless I decide to start using my dogs for hunting game. Instead of defending yourself and taking cheap shots, let's see some confidence and useful information.


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## susan tuck

Ever heard the expression "sit on it and twirl", Don? Oh I guess that's a dumb question since all you have done since your dogs were chased is spin.

Again, thanks for the laughs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## susan tuck

Don Turnipseed said:


> No, Susan, had nothing to do with what I read here. I waited till I saw it in person. What I saw left me in a semi state of shock. Let me explain, since Ariel is making over what she percieves I don't know. Two trainers come into a yard, which, contain two dogs under the age of what, 5 years. All others are 5 to 11 years and raised outdoors their entire life. No secret was made that they will not chase rags or ball. Yet, they had to try it. Been dicussed many times. Dogs been raised in contact with very few people. Dogs kill live things. Expecting to see something else tells me are not dog people, they are at best, trainers. Either that, or they really have no capacity for putting 2 and 2 together. They have learned that this action will possibly get a specific reaction. Since Mike mentioned forward aggression...two others thought it sounded good, Ariel being one. Just so Ariel understands, all territorial dogs are not fear biters. Most dogs that bite, do so as a warning. That does not make them fear biters. They do it to each other as much as they do with people. Many people just haven't observed enough behavior to connect the dots. Real forward aggression is not something you see in the mainstream dog. As a matter of fact, you will see very little real forward aggression in sport dogs or it wouldn't be so hard to train them to bite.
> To try and pass 7 million bites a year off as fear bites is absurd.


This post makes my point 100%. You have no clue what is or isn't in grip sport dogs because your whole basis of experience is what you've seen or read on the Internet, you have NO hands on experience in this arena, none whatsoever. 

Same thing about Dave and Ariel. You can't possibly judge Ariel and Dave based on what little you observed in a couple hours, but here you are making up a whole story about who and what they are, based on what you saw in one afternoon. That's simply not logical. 

You remind me of the newbie who attends one seminar and thinks he/she knows it all, which is just stupid.

What is going on is wishful thinking and stupid rationalizations on your part. This is obvious to everyone but you, sadly. Get a grip, get a hold of youself, and maybe you can gain back some respect, if you stop this craziness.


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## Don Turnipseed

Susan, you only wish anyone would worry about having your respect.


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## Don Turnipseed

May as well shut this thread down, there will be no more discussion now that Susan is here. If nothing else, she is predictable. I will be back tomorrow. Maybe we will try a discussion on "foreward aggression".


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## susan tuck

Don you tried that already, the comment fell short this time as it did last time. I guess you just can't help yourself. Pitiful, really, and very sad to see, this self imposed self destruction you seem bent on. Don't let me chase you, carry on making a fool of yourself, at least you're good at that.


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## Nicole Stark

Don Turnipseed said:


> Maybe we will try a discussion on "foreward aggression".


Um, yeah... good idea.

 GIFSoup


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## Joby Becker

Travis Ragin said:


> Small World,
> 
> i asked/had Mark B. to work my dog when they stopped here on their "midwest" tour... by saturday night they were freezing from the cold! (i told them to come back in February! LOL)
> 
> I saw and played with this DS pup(never even asked who they got him from)....VERY confident and well-built 9wk. old!
> 
> What i find intriguing here is that puppy.....could actually be a "case study" in the *topic of this thread** ........what mark & I observed,was that this pup did have pretty decent rag "prey drive"........but we wouldn't call it high,and he didn't stay focused in on it..............BUT-that is because this pup was extremely smart and highly observant.....he would chase the end of the toy for a minute,and bite......but his eyes would always go up to the "source" of what was moving this thing.......then,he would release and try to go to the "head of the snake".. if you will.
> 
> Not at all aggressively,he was very much just playing.....but he was just so smart, that you had to try to literally out-think him,to stimulate him for any kind of "standard" test......there were about 15 or so dog folks there that day,but I'm quite positive Mark& I were the only one's who could see that.
> 
> So,I guess another opinion on the *OP by Mr. Turnipseed*,is that because these tests are so "standardized",that a lot of people new to DOGS & younger people just do an internet search on them and just as easy go to print it out ...pretty much any one can just take the steps with them when they go choose a pup......and just score a pup strictly on the MATH.......
> 
> As with your pick pup....I'm certain he would have scored lower on the "prey" and "focus" portion of X test........but that pup can be molded to protection sports,or PP,or service dog or even pheasant hunting from what I saw.
> 
> *easy(for some lol) to see why he was top draft pick--- one of the most confident and well socialized 9 week old pups I've ever seen.
> great job,*
> Little t


I just read this, thanks T...

That pup is an interesting one, there were 3 pups out of the litter that were less inclined to go after the prey items. He was more inclined to go after the person behind the prey items..Of course he was never tied out and teased or frustrated for anything...just was what he did on his own...


The last time I ventured into the puppy pen alone (without the mother to distract the pups), that puppy Mark got, grabbed my hamstring and sunk all 4 canines into my leg (after the others pulled my sweatpants down  ) It took two hands to pry him off my leg, that was at 7 weeks of age. 


I appreciate the compliment on his socialization, but to be perfectly honest, that pup never left my house until he was 6 weeks old, then he got out into my small yard a few times, and was then moved to a kennel in a garage for a few weeks, getting out in the yard to play a couple times a day. There was no real effort put into any socialization or confidence building..

After meeting Mark, I am glad he got the pup, it will be interesting to see him 8-9 months of age..and how he turns out for sure...He also was the best looking pup I think...

The one I have here, is a super freak for objects/prey items..but I admit I did take a liking to the big goofy one that Mark took...


----------



## Bob Scott

Lee H Sternberg said:


> I might have you beat on the age thing - 10/20/1946. I don't like getting old.](*,)
> 
> GSD's have been the choice LE dogs as long as I can remember. As everyone knows lately Mals have gotten popular.



9/5/45 here. 
Getting old isn't so bad when you consider the option. 
Now for the important question about age. Does it mean were smarter or we've just had more time to make mistakes? :lol:


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## mike suttle

Don Turnipseed said:


> It is good to see Mike Suttle back. Howard also. Just gotta offer something besides the usual crap. But, Mike brought up fear biters, Rick talked about dogs that bite. Why is it, people in bitesports, when trying to convince others dogs won't bite, always forget one on thje largest segments of dogs that bite. The territorial dogs are not fear biters but constitute a large portion of those dog bite figures. They bite if you are in their yard they bite if you touch their food. But, you would think they didn't exist.


Don, 
How many of these territorial dogs have you seen? And of the ones you have seen, how many have you seen challanged? By that I mean how do you know they would actually follow through with a legitimate fight? I have seen lots of farm dogs around here who have bitten almost everyone who pulls into their driveway and gets out of the car. But when I pull into their driveway and get out of my car and run after them they all behave the same way..........they run for their lives! Those dogs have had sucess by fooling people for years into thinking they are tough dogs and that people should be afraid of them. Most people do act afraid of them and so the snow ball keeps rolling and getting bigger.....to a certain point. But as soon as those dogs are faced with the challange of a man acting with real comittment to fight them, the dogs quickly run out of tools in the box and they dont want to fight anymore. Dont get me wrong, they may still sneak up and bite you in the back of the leg when you turn your back to them, but for sure they dont really want to fight you.
Dogs are masters of associating behaviors, and after several years he has turned this behavior into a huge display of what 90% of people (including you apparantly) think is true "territorial aggression" when in reality is simply is not. 
The Lab X hound that Ariel referred to in her post was a dog that I had heard about for several days before we went to see him. I was told he was "a monster" over high value resources, he had bitten several people and he was " the type of dog that would simply never back down from a fight, and there for he was untrainable". He had been evaluated by two professional trainers before we were called to go see him and he was said to be a hopeless case due to his aggression. When I walked into his house, the dog approached me and when I looked deep into his eyes and took a step towards him he pissed on the floor and lowered his head and tail. The people in the house said they could not believe he acted that way, they had never seen him behave with anyone the way he behaved with me. I watched that dog bite his own handler over a bone in his living room floor the day we were there. He has been with us for about 3 weeks now, and he tried to bite Ariel one time over food (bad idea for him), now when she walks near him when he is eating he backs away from his food about three feet and sits and waits for her to allow him to go back to eating, and now he will happily give us his bone, kong, whatever. My point is that many dogs that most people think are tough, simply are not, and as soon as they are properly challanged they will end the fight if they ever even comitt to an actual fight at all. Unfortunately I see the same thing in many police dogs working on the street today, but that is another topic all together.
I can walk into almost any animal shelter in the world and push half of the dogs to bite me in their little cages, and even though that would be chalked up as a "bite" in your statistics example, none of those dogs will actually fight me outside of their cages. The same is true with most dogs in breeding kennels around the world. Why do you think I have to fly all over the world to find a handfull of dogs with the true willingness and desire to fight a man? Don't you think I would just go the shelter and get them, or maybe just buy them from local Airdale breeders if they would work to our standard?


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## Lee H Sternberg

Bob Scott said:


> 9/5/45 here.
> Getting old isn't so bad when you consider the option.
> Now for the important question about age. Does it mean were smarter or we've just had more time to make mistakes? :lol:


I'm too young to answer that question! Maybe I can answer next year when I'm old like you.


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## Adam Swilling

mike suttle said:


> don,
> how many of these territorial dogs have you seen? And of the ones you have seen, how many have you seen challanged? By that i mean how do you know they would actually follow through with a legitimate fight? I have seen lots of farm dogs around here who have bitten almost everyone who pulls into their driveway and gets out of the car. But when i pull into their driveway and get out of my car and run after them they all behave the same way..........they run for their lives! Those dogs have had sucess by fooling people for years into thinking they are tough dogs and that people should be afraid of them. Most people do act afraid of them and so the snow ball keeps rolling and getting bigger.....to a certain point. But as soon as those dogs are faced with the challange of a man acting with real comittment to fight them, the dogs quickly run out of tools in the box and they dont want to fight anymore. Dont get me wrong, they may still sneak up and bite you in the back of the leg when you turn your back to them, but for sure they dont really want to fight you.
> Dogs are masters of associating behaviors, and after several years he has turned this behavior into a huge display of what 90% of people (including you apparantly) think is true "territorial aggression" when in reality is simply is not.
> The lab x hound that ariel referred to in her post was a dog that i had heard about for several days before we went to see him. I was told he was "a monster" over high value resources, he had bitten several people and he was " the type of dog that would simply never back down from a fight, and there for he was untrainable". He had been evaluated by two professional trainers before we were called to go see him and he was said to be a hopeless case due to his aggression. When i walked into his house, the dog approached me and when i looked deep into his eyes and took a step towards him he pissed on the floor and lowered his head and tail. The people in the house said they could not believe he acted that way, they had never seen him behave with anyone the way he behaved with me. I watched that dog bite his own handler over a bone in his living room floor the day we were there. He has been with us for about 3 weeks now, and he tried to bite ariel one time over food (bad idea for him), now when she walks near him when he is eating he backs away from his food about three feet and sits and waits for her to allow him to go back to eating, and now he will happily give us his bone, kong, whatever. My point is that many dogs that most people think are tough, simply are not, and as soon as they are properly challanged they will end the fight if they ever even comitt to an actual fight at all. Unfortunately i see the same thing in many police dogs working on the street today, but that is another topic all together.
> I can walk into almost any animal shelter in the world and push half of the dogs to bite me in their little cages, and even though that would be chalked up as a "bite" in your statistics example, none of those dogs will actually fight me outside of their cages. The same is true with most dogs in breeding kennels around the world. Why do you think i have to fly all over the world to find a handfull of dogs with the true willingness and desire to fight a man? Don't you think i would just go the shelter and get them, or maybe just buy them from local airdale breeders if they would work to our standard?


bingo!!!


----------



## brad robert

mike suttle said:


> Don,
> How many of these territorial dogs have you seen? And of the ones you have seen, how many have you seen challanged? By that I mean how do you know they would actually follow through with a legitimate fight? I have seen lots of farm dogs around here who have bitten almost everyone who pulls into their driveway and gets out of the car. But when I pull into their driveway and get out of my car and run after them they all behave the same way..........they run for their lives! Those dogs have had sucess by fooling people for years into thinking they are tough dogs and that people should be afraid of them. Most people do act afraid of them and so the snow ball keeps rolling and getting bigger.....to a certain point. But as soon as those dogs are faced with the challange of a man acting with real comittment to fight them, the dogs quickly run out of tools in the box and they dont want to fight anymore. Dont get me wrong, they may still sneak up and bite you in the back of the leg when you turn your back to them, but for sure they dont really want to fight you.
> Dogs are masters of associating behaviors, and after several years he has turned this behavior into a huge display of what 90% of people (including you apparantly) think is true "territorial aggression" when in reality is simply is not.
> The Lab X hound that Ariel referred to in her post was a dog that I had heard about for several days before we went to see him. I was told he was "a monster" over high value resources, he had bitten several people and he was " the type of dog that would simply never back down from a fight, and there for he was untrainable". He had been evaluated by two professional trainers before we were called to go see him and he was said to be a hopeless case due to his aggression. When I walked into his house, the dog approached me and when I looked deep into his eyes and took a step towards him he pissed on the floor and lowered his head and tail. The people in the house said they could not believe he acted that way, they had never seen him behave with anyone the way he behaved with me. I watched that dog bite his own handler over a bone in his living room floor the day we were there. He has been with us for about 3 weeks now, and he tried to bite Ariel one time over food (bad idea for him), now when she walks near him when he is eating he backs away from his food about three feet and sits and waits for her to allow him to go back to eating, and now he will happily give us his bone, kong, whatever. My point is that many dogs that most people think are tough, simply are not, and as soon as they are properly challanged they will end the fight if they ever even comitt to an actual fight at all. Unfortunately I see the same thing in many police dogs working on the street today, but that is another topic all together.
> I can walk into almost any animal shelter in the world and push half of the dogs to bite me in their little cages, and even though that would be chalked up as a "bite" in your statistics example, none of those dogs will actually fight me outside of their cages. The same is true with most dogs in breeding kennels around the world. Why do you think I have to fly all over the world to find a handfull of dogs with the true willingness and desire to fight a man? Don't you think I would just go the shelter and get them, or maybe just buy them from local Airdale breeders if they would work to our standard?


Great Post!!!!!!


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## Don Turnipseed

The post was alright Mike, I don't agree with a lot of it but that is what a discussion is about. I have seen a lot of territorial dogs in all sizes shapes and colors. Spent a lot of years doing service work. Learned that there are just some dogs I didn't want to challenge. St Bernards, Chows, and male queenslands. I had a dog as a matter of fact that was 1/2 pit, 1/4 chow, 1/4 St. Bernard. Terrible combination of dogs. He wouild act like he was scared of you until you got, what he thought, far enough from your truck he could catch you. You would have thought he was just scared to death. so I agree dogs learn how to play people quickly. I ended up putting the dog down because he did catch a friend.
I just can't buy the "every dog is a fear biter" but trained dogs. Can't buy that out of 7 million bites they were all done by fear biters. Just not true. 

When I was doing service work, the best way to find out what kind of dog was waiting outside the truck was to make steady, serious, eye contact and not talk. While making the eye contact, I would start to open the door. Yes, most all dogs backed off. In no way is that an indication they are afraid or a fear biter. My presence was just not important enough to fight to that particular dog. Dogs are genetically engineered as social animals.....so are people. The dogs warned me. Likewise very few people display foreward aggression, most that do are locked up somewhere. Dogs warn each other off, they warn people. Most dogs will not fight unless the reason is important to that dog. They may take a swipe to warn another dog or person that that is his bone, but, if he stays guarding the bone, he is not afraid and few people will put their hand down a second time. They go through this same thing with each other. When you guys want to really test a dog, what do you do? You back tie them so they can't leave. You give them no out. Some move forward and never try to retreat, some try to retreat and when they find out they can't they will bite....then you have the ones that just pee all over themselves. So, common sense already says you are backtying the dog so he won't leave because you know most will. The ones peeing all over themselves are afraid to bite you, the others will bite and it isn't fear....you just gave them no other choice. Most people, being social animals also, will fight only if there is no other option. One thing I am sure you ar aware of, real fear can make both people and dogs dangerous when cornered. Of course wearing a bitesuit really makes it possible to do things that will seldom happen in real life.....so they are all fear biters. No way, they are social animals, no more, no less. Many dogs will bit without being fear biters. Having things like HD is one reason a lot of people get bit. Dog is hurting and just doesn't feel like being screwed with. In that case, the dog has a reason. There are few dogs like you refer to because it isn't normal for a dog and most are put down....just like people are locked up.

This was a great thread.....off and on. After the many discussions concerning prey drive, I do realize what you folks are referring to as prey drive is all together different. I just never could quite understand why dogs with high prey were bouncing of the walls. Or, why everyone says, "l like a really balanced dog with off the charts ball drive". OK so I just have to do a translation converting what I know as prey drive to compulsive behavior and I think we will be fine.


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## Nicole Stark

Don Turnipseed said:


> I just never could quite understand why dogs with high prey were bouncing of the walls. Or, why everyone says, "l like a really balanced dog with off the charts ball drive". OK so I just have to do a translation converting what I know as prey drive to compulsive behavior and I think we will be fine.


I basically explained that to you earlier. Maybe my translation wasn't given in a language we both knew though? It's loosely stated as one term, fundamentally about the same things, yet applied/tested and developed differently, with specific motor sequences either present, absent, diluted, or modified.

And not every high drive dog has to be or is bouncing off the walls. My snipe doesn't, she has an off switch yet I simply choose to not be the one who flips it. Interestingly she appears to have enough sense to do that on her own in most situations where it would be appropriate to do so.


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## James Downey

Don Turnipseed said:


> . I just never could quite understand why dogs with high prey were bouncing of the walls. Or, why everyone says, "l like a really balanced dog with off the charts ball drive". OK so I just have to do a translation converting what I know as prey drive to compulsive behavior and I think we will be fine.


Don, You can call prey drive, taking a shit if it makes you happy. 

I think your more interested in proving people just plain do not know what they are talking about. 

That's your drive. So I look at every post you make with the idea, that your motivation is not about coming to a conclusion but in fact by somehow out arguing people, your better than.

Well congrats your better than.....write it on your next job application. I am sure it will help.


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## Ben Colbert

Don Turnipseed said:


> blah blah blah. Look how much I know.


You are pathetic.


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## Howard Gaines III

Don Turnipseed said:


> Howard, since you are here and far more logical that most, I want to hear your opinion. I just ordered a camcorder. If I get a twitch and start working the pups....and the pups chase it like mad, does that tll me they have great prey drive? OK next, I throw a grey squirrel on the ground and they all leave the rag....did they lose their prey drive? Never had any? What?


 Logical...me?!!! LOL

Chasing *anything* by a IS a prey behavior. To me, "_*great prey drive*_" would be if the puppy continues to do this, does it under modest distractions, goes into the area of early hunt drive, and still remains focused. They never lost any prey drive, the squirrel is something new and exciting. 

If you're married or have a GF and you see a hot chick with button popping "looks," it doesn't mean you would cheat, it means your focus has been redirected towards some of similar interest. Getting cranked on with an iron pan redirects your "proper" focus to the stuff that it SHOULD be on!!! #-o

I want my hunters to work on bumpers, wings, dead game or fresh kills, and I want them to chase to recover OR scent to hunt for lost game. I think I understand your points...:-k


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## Howard Gaines III

195 threads...this is 196. I'm so smart, I'm focused on all this reading and haven't gotten a thing done! #-o:wink:


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## Don Turnipseed

LOL, Howard, by logical, I don't mean you have to agree with me. I mean you have your point of view and have the ability to explain how you came to your opinions. You are not one to parrot what you you have been told. You think outside the box, which many of your past threads are proof of. They usually had a totally different perspective to them than the run of the mill blah, blah, blah. They were refreshing.


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## Lee H Sternberg

Howard for President!:-D


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## Ariel Peldunas

Howard, no offense to you, but it seems you have to be on Don's good side for him to listen with an open mind. Seems to me you said what a lot of others (including myself) have said ...but it was all crap coming from anyone else. From you, it's refreshing. Maybe we should all get together and elect a couple spokespeople to help educate Don.


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## Don Turnipseed

Ariel, speaking getting educated, did you by chance read Jim's article posted in the other "Drives" thread. It is long, but you should try and muddle through it. It should be required reading on this list. I listen to Howard because, whether we agree or not, he does use his head for something besides separating his ears.


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## James Downey

And when you show me a trained dog. I will give a shit.


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## Don Turnipseed

James Downey said:


> And when you show me a trained dog. I will give a shit.


Waahhh, wahhh, wahhh. Told you James. I am not a trainer.....but I can get a dog to do what I want. Even without ever seeing a treat.


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## Thomas Barriano

Don Turnipseed said:


> .....but I can get a dog to do what I want.



Nah...............................too easy


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## Ariel Peldunas

Don Turnipseed said:


> Ariel, speaking getting educated, did you by chance read Jim's article posted in the other "Drives" thread. It is long, but you should try and muddle through it. It should be required reading on this list. I listen to Howard because, whether we agree or not, he does use his head for something besides separating his ears.


Don,

Thank you for trying to expand my knowledge base. I always try to remember that I can learn from everyone ...even if I'm just learning what not to do. I used my college education and "muddled" my way through the article. There were a few multisyllabic words that gave me some trouble, but I toughed it out. I'm not sure, however, if you actually understood the article or just saw a few phrases that you thought supported your point of view and thought it was brilliant.

Some relevant quotes from the article:

_" ...the arm chair canine experts, equipped with an array of buzz words can create the image of knowledge far beyond their real ability to deal with actual dogs. The Bouvier world in particular has a set of pretend training experts who prattle on with the esoteric terminology and have hundreds of anecdotal tales designed to impress the novice, but who can never actually walk on the trial field and take a dog to a senior title."_

Sounds an awful lot like you, Don. I may use some terminology that you consider "buzz words," but in my field, they are commonly accepted and understood and I can back what I write and say with actual experience and success in my profession. So far, I've seen little evidence to back up your expertise. Sure, you don't call yourself a trainer ...but you have no problem telling everyone else why they are wrong and you are right. To me, you're just another guy with some dogs and an opinion. 

Regarding prey drive:

_"This drive also is built upon in protection work, for the merely defensive dog has no reason to chase after an adversary at a distance. In nature, it is almost always the natural response to break off the attack when the adversary gives up and leaves the disputed territory."_

Regarding defense instinct or drive:

_"In dog training this instinct to defend, referred to as the defensive drive, is a fundamental aspect of the canine physiological make up which needs to be called upon and used, but in a most careful and cautious manner. Old fashioned area protection dog training, that is, the proverbial junk yard dog, tended to rely almost totally on building up the fear of the dog in the face of intruders and in breaking down the inhibitions of aggression."_

_"Defense drive is based in fear."_

_"In protection dog training, creating a situation that will bring forth a defensive reaction in response to purposefully created fear is a double edged sword. It can make a dog bite, and bite hard with great determination. But the extreme manifestations of fear reaction are reserved by nature for the emergency, and the routine inducement of pure fear for a desired response in training, in a trial or on the street is difficult to produce, stressful for the dog, the handler and the helper and fundamentally unpredictable._

*Fear can also make the dog run, and once the dog runs this may become the natural response, easier each time it occurs. *

_The defensive instinct is in play at some level, and necessary, in all protection work; but it needs to be used minimally and with restraint, in an ancillary and supporting role rather than as the primary motivational force. In society today, it seems reasonable that those dogs who can only show aggression in response to purely defensive instincts should not be trained at all, and furthermore that for the primarily protective breeds such individuals should not be bred."_

Regarding play drive:

_"The words play and prey describe slightly different focus points on the canine temperament and response, and it is in general very difficult to define the difference in an unambiguous way."_

Regarding fight drive:

_"One way of looking at this is to view fighting drive as nothing more or less than the primitive prey and defense instincts empowered, combined and matured by confidence and good training."_

Regarding fear and confidence:

_"While the confident, aggressive dog will certainly bite, and with good training can be a very useful animal, it is also well known that excessively fearful dogs also can and will bite, and can inflect great damage. But the fearful dog will run if he can see a way out and will respond to imaginary or perceived fears as well as realistic fearful situations, making him a loose cannon on the deck._

_*Failure to distinguish between the confident, aggressive dog, the one with fighting drive, and the dog who bites out of fear is the greatest source of confusion and bad decisions in this entire subject.*_

_There is a great deal of bluff in the unconfident or fearful dog, and he often learns that by putting on a show people will keep their distance, giving him an element of control over his fear laden world. When he is pushed beyond his ability to retain his composure he bites in a panic driven mode, thus becoming unpredictable and dangerous. _

_The useful protection dog is confident rather than fearful, intelligent, driven by the love of the fight and the desire to protect and defend his handler as well as himself. His bite is controlled by his trained reactions and in that the handler can bring the attack to an end with verbal command. He is reacting to real threats rather than primitive fear of the unknown."_

By now, I would hope you understand that, in order to train a reliable protection dog, a combination of all the drives are necessary in almost every case. Using just prey drive or just defense drive, you cannot train a complete dog with all the tools necessary to face a tough adversary. But, as I've said numerous times before, you can evaluate a dog by testing how strong its drives are and then determine if the dog is a suitable candidate and furthermore, determine the best training plan to make that dog reliable. If a dog has weak prey drive and runs from threats, there is little that can be done to make that dog what I would consider suitable. 

I am sure I should know by now that trying to argue a point with you in any kind of rational manner is futile. Because of who I am and what happened when I came to California, what I have to say will never hold any water with you. But, I'm stubborn and like a good debate, so I'll continue to post my educated opinion of what I've learned through first hand experience. I'm still waiting for you to do the same.


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## Don Turnipseed

Ariel, I have no idea why you persist in this. I have to assume it is for everyone elses benefit because I have no interest in what you think you know. Leave my name out of your posts and just direct it to everyone else. I just skim your posts if that. I suppose you felt the need to bring up a college education the make your assessment of the article valid. I was going to be an accountant....so what.Tell you what Ariel, if that is what you got out of Jim's article, I don't even have to guess how you will vote in 2012. Having a pretty face has not served you well in the long run Ariel.


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## Howard Gaines III

Since we have run this one into the ground...and on a _SLIGHTLY_ different spin, Testing Defense. something which has been addressed once before on this forum.

Defense as YOU use it in YOUR venue...:-& Don't care if it's PSA/SCH or Chicken Catch'n.


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## Ariel Peldunas

Don Turnipseed said:


> Ariel, I have no idea why you persist in this. I have to assume it is for everyone elses benefit because I have no interest in what you think you know. Leave my name out of your posts and just direct it to everyone else. I just skim your posts if that. I suppose you felt the need to bring up a college education the make your assessment of the article valid. I was going to be an accountant....so what.Tell you what Ariel, if that is what you got out of Jim's article, I don't even have to guess how you will vote in 2012. Having a pretty face has not served you well in the long run Ariel.


 
Not sure what politics or my face has to do with anything, Don. I persist because ignorance like yours frustrates me and is detrimental to this field. There are far too many people in the working dog world who think just because they are old and have "X" number years of experience, they must must know something of value worth sharing. I've always believed, just because someone has been doing something for 30 years doesn't mean they've been doing it correctly for 30 years. If you were posting about hunting pigs, I'd let it go. But you're posting about something that I am passionate about and you're perpetuating the ignorance that allows substandard dogs to continue to be produced and sold. If more people understood how to evaluate and test dogs and were honest about their dogs shortcomings, I believe we'd see a lot more quality working dogs. 

Obviously, you do not have an open mind ...evident by the fact that you skim posts from people you disagree with. You look for people to agree with you and promote what they have to say. You can read my posts or not. But I refuse to let your attitude keep me from debating what you have to say. Sure, I'm not just posting for your benefit. People new to working dogs come here and read what you write. I think they should at least be able to hear what someone who actually works in the field has to say. But as long as you feel the need to address me by name, I'll do the same for you. Maybe one day you'll stick to talking about what you know.


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## mike suttle

Don Turnipseed said:


> Tell you what Ariel, if that is what you got out of Jim's article, I don't even have to guess how you will vote in 2012. Having a pretty face has not served you well in the long run Ariel.


This makes me laugh out loud. And it also proves to me that you can read people about as well as you read dogs! While I do agree that she has a very pretty face, that has nothing at all to do with anything being discussed here. As far as how she will vote, well let me educate you about her a little.......She is a former Marine, she loves to ride horses and ATVs, is not afraid to get dirty, she loves to shoot guns (and I would be willing to bet you $$ that she can outshoot you). She is an all American country girl, just because she happens to be far more intelligent than most people in the dog world does not mean you have to make crazy statements like the one above. I can assure you Don, I know how she will vote.


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## Daryl Ehret

Howard Gaines III said:


> Since we have run this one into the ground...and on a _SLIGHTLY_ different spin, Testing Defense. something which has been addressed once before on this forum.
> 
> Defense as YOU use it in YOUR venue...:-& Don't care if it's PSA/SCH or Chicken Catch'n.


Defense is when the dog feels threatened, right? Territory is threatened, pack is threatened, food or other resources are threatened, or it's own personal safety.

If you raised the dog, you might already know from day to day activity what lower thresholds for defense it has, and no need to actually "test" for it. If you want to know the dog's upper thresholds, the breaking point between fight and flight, I suppose you might test for that, or at least to a level that "meets standard". If you're evaluating a dog you have just met, then a test of both thresholds is certainly appropriate.

_Ya git yerself one a them fearless dogs, and ain't no need fer testin nuthin._

I gotta say, the stethoscope method is complicated enough. But then we have to guage the different reactions that the dog has to physical restraint and invasion of it's personal space. Does the dog "freeze up" in fear, or whine and struggle to get free, or does it seem passive but uneasy while it's heart races fast, or does it growl/bark/or bite at the stethoscope or the vet? Appearantly, complete aloofness, face-licking, or hand-biting is the only "correct response", otherwise the dog is not breedworthy and not an old style "serious dog".

Defense isn't needed (that I can tell) in herding and tending, but the germans base their breedworthiness on either SchH or HGH titles. Defense isn't needed (or appropriate) for any circumstance I can imagine in SAR, either. So, are we just talking biting sports and real working applications that require biting? Cuz I'm pretty sure my stethoscope fearing puppy has got what it takes to bite, although I'll have to teach him that's what I want him to do before he gets overly conditioned to being handled like that.


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## Ariel Peldunas

Howard Gaines III said:


> Since we have run this one into the ground...and on a _SLIGHTLY_ different spin, Testing Defense. something which has been addressed once before on this forum.
> 
> Defense as YOU use it in YOUR venue...:-& Don't care if it's PSA/SCH or Chicken Catch'n.


Let me preface this by saying I do not do much decoy work and certainly don't fool myself into thinking that I can effectively work a dog in defense. I just don't believe I'm that intimidating to most of the dogs I've trained. I stick to working puppies and young dogs and being on the end of the leash for most of the protection training. That being said, I have handled and trained plenty of dogs and pay close attention to what I read in the dogs and how the decoys respond to those signals. From that experience, I believe this: 

As useful as prey drive can be for teaching a young or inexperienced dog the fundamentals of bite work, I don't believe you can teach a dog how to engage a threat or fight without tapping into defense drive. At some point, we expect a protection dog to encounter something they will perceive as a threat. By showing a young dog how to handle pressure, we teach them that if they meet aggression with more aggression, they will eventually win the fight and neutralize the threat. You can work a dog in both prey and defense in the same session by drive channeling. The decoy can square off to the dog, challenge the dog over the prey object, inflict pain on the dog or use a variety of other threatening gestures to engage the dog's defense drive. When the dog shows the desired reaction, the decoy responds by retreating or making prey movements. The dog learns by showing aggression, they deter the threat and eventually engage the threat as prey. Once the dog is biting, the decoy can move back and forth between prey and defense ...putting pressure on the dog and then rewarding a strong response by moving back into prey. A good decoy will be fluid in their transitions between prey and defense and understand how much pressure a dog can take and how and when to "let the dog win" in order to build the dog's confidence.

There are the select few dogs who are so confident, they rarely perceive anything as a threat. Often times, these dogs will perform just fine without ever being worked in defense. However, these dogs can pose a problem in the event they fail to recognize a passive suspect or decoy as prey. If you can convince these dogs that decoys and suspects may pose a threat, it's more likely that the dog will be interested in engaging that person.


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## Don Turnipseed

mike suttle said:


> This makes me laugh out loud. And it also proves to me that you can read people about as well as you read dogs! *While I do agree that she has a very pretty face, that has nothing at all to do with anything being discussed here.* As far as how she will vote, well let me educate you about her a little.......She is a former Marine, she loves to ride horses and ATVs, is not afraid to get dirty, she loves to shoot guns (and I would be willing to bet you $$ that she can outshoot you). She is an all American country girl, just because she happens to be far more intelligent than most people in the dog world does not mean you have to make crazy statements like the one above. I can assure you Don, I know how she will vote.


90% of what is on this thread is off topic....including your post Mike. Actually, I figured if I made a political statement, they would get around to closing the thread since the topic is all but forgotten. Should have been closed a long time ago.


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## mike suttle

Don Turnipseed said:


> 90% of what is on this thread is off topic....including your post Mike. Actually, I figured if I made a political statement, they would get around to closing the thread since the topic is all but forgotten. Should have been closed a long time ago.


I suppose you may be correct. So then lets just start a new post entitled "shooting competition between Don the hunter and Ariel the alleged Democrat"


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## Joby Becker

Don...

before you get this thread closed...Did you ever say on here how someone should test for prey drive, if the aim is a sport, or other working dog, like a police, military, or PP type dog....?

This topic has so many posts I might have missed it..

How do *you* think someone should go about testing for that?


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## Daryl Ehret

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Let me preface this by saying I do not do much decoy work and certainly don't fool myself into thinking that I can effectively work a dog in defense. I just don't believe I'm that intimidating to most of the dogs I've trained. I stick to working puppies and young dogs and being on the end of the leash for most of the protection training. That being said, I have handled and trained plenty of dogs and pay close attention to what I read in the dogs and how the decoys respond to those signals. From that experience, I believe this:
> 
> As useful as prey drive can be for teaching a young or inexperienced dog the fundamentals of bite work, I don't believe you can teach a dog how to engage a threat or fight without tapping into defense drive. * At some point, we expect a protection dog to encounter something they will perceive as a threat.* By showing a young dog how to handle pressure, we teach them that if they meet aggression with more aggression, they will eventually win the fight and neutralize the threat. You can work a dog in both prey and defense in the same session by drive channeling. The decoy can square off to the dog, challenge the dog over the prey object, inflict pain on the dog or use a variety of other threatening gestures to engage the dog's defense drive. When the dog shows the desired reaction, the decoy responds by retreating or making prey movements. The dog learns by showing aggression, they deter the threat and eventually engage the threat as prey. Once the dog is biting, the decoy can move back and forth between prey and defense ...putting pressure on the dog and then rewarding a strong response by moving back into prey. A good decoy will be fluid in their transitions between prey and defense and understand how much pressure a dog can take and how and when to "let the dog win" in order to build the dog's confidence.
> 
> *There are the select few dogs who are so confident, they rarely perceive anything as a threat. Often times, these dogs will perform just fine without ever being worked in defense. However, these dogs can pose a problem in the event they fail to recognize a passive suspect or decoy as prey. If you can convince these dogs that decoys and suspects may pose a threat, it's more likely that the dog will be interested in engaging that person*.


Dang, she must be pretty AND smart!


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Defense isn't needed (that I can tell) in herding and tending said:


> What makes you think defense isn't an element of herding or tending?
> 
> 
> Terrasita


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## Daryl Ehret

I figured you'd chime in on that, but explain why then. Are you referring to when the dog perceives a threat from the bad wolfies come to eat the livestock, or what? Isn't being a livestock guardian a little different than herding and tending? Or do you personally view defense as something other than a response to a perceived threat?

It's all about the animal's perception. The dog must have an inherent level of suspicion, or risks failing to recognize a threat (because of aloofness or overconfidence). If YOUR perception is that all threats will be overt enough to be obvious to the dog, or have faith that it will "instinctually" be aware of a threat, then natural suspicion might not matter to you. But for a breed that processes information differently than some breeds, my perception is the GSD should LEARN to discriminate threat from non-threat, beginning with fairly lower thresholds initially, that can be raised during the training and socializing experience. You just can't (reliably, anyway) lower the thresholds for defense on a dog that's set for too "high".


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## manny rose

Quick question...because you shoot guns, get your hands dirty, ride an atv, and whatever else mean you belong to a certain political party? The crazy thing is that both of you are serious! Lol


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## manny rose

Scratch my last post as thinking out loud...back to dogs. Sorry


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Daryl Ehret said:


> I figured you'd chime in on that, but explain why then. Are you referring to when the dog perceives a threat from the bad wolfies come to eat the livestock, or what? Isn't being a livestock guardian a little different than herding and tending? Or do you personally view defense as something other than a response to a perceived threat?
> 
> It's all about the animal's perception. The dog must have an inherent level of suspicion, or risks failing to recognize a threat (because of aloofness or overconfidence). If YOUR perception is that all threats will be overt enough to be obvious to the dog, or have faith that it will "instinctually" be aware of a threat, then natural suspicion might not matter to you. But for a breed that processes information differently than some breeds, my perception is the GSD should LEARN to discriminate threat from non-threat, beginning with fairly lower thresholds initially, that can be raised during the training and socializing experience. You just can't (reliably, anyway) lower the thresholds for defense on a dog that's set for too "high".


Remember response to exhibited behavior??? Stock dogs also read intent as well. There is also a mental communiction at work besides overt body language. If you can read your dog, you'll know what's in the livestock. Livestock don't always play nice. They will try to bash your dog's brains in [and yours for that matter] and they size up the dog to determine weakness. Remember, prey moves away from the dog. All those behaviors that you try to understand and tap into for protection work, exist first and foremost in nature. In the stock world, total reliance on learned or commanded behavior can be a day late and dollar short and get you and your dog seriously hurt or killed. I can't see a place for generalized suspicion in stock work nor do I think conditioning is reliable in manipulating thresholds--only to a point. I select for nerves, confidence and instinct. That is what has kept me safe and its why I have only done certain types of stock work with a certain type of dog.

Terrasita


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## Daryl Ehret

That all seems reasonable for the stock dog, to include the thresholds for defense. It's difficult to imagine my dog feeling threatened by livestock, but then, I've only worked with those pansy AKC flocks. When Hutch and Nyx were messing with a horned bull (without my consent), their best "defense" was staying out of reach. That bull was being pretty overt though, with his intentions.


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## rick smith

wow, the more i read the more i'm beginning to think working stock is a lot more dangerous than i ever thought !
- a whole part of the dog world i have missed out on, and would sure like to see dogs working stock, but probably will never get the chance
- as a kid i did have a lot of time around black angus, but they weren't worked with dogs and as long as i knew where the bull was i felt pretty safe
- was around wild mountain goats a lot too, but they could be backed down pretty easy without a dog 
- but i always assumed livestock, being the dumb veggies they are, had little if any of the drives or aggression of a canine.....and that's why small nimble dogs with predatory EC could manipulate an animal much bigger and get them to yield space
- sorry it's way off topic, but do stock herds have "alphas" that need to be watched more carefully too ?
....on second thought; don't care of it's off topic; just curious


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## Howard Gaines III

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Defense isn't needed (that I can tell) in herding and tending said:
> 
> 
> 
> What makes you think defense isn't an element of herding or tending? Terrasita
> 
> 
> 
> OK, so I'm not the only one who picked up on it...
> I had a male BC that had a NASTY ram run to a corner in the pasture and refused to move, dropped his head and tried to spear my dog. Thank God the the dog understood "management" and bit the ram dead set between the eyes. After a few seconds, I hollered out, "Dirk, OUT!" The dog released the bite and the ram remained in the corner for well over 15 minutes!!!
> 
> Now was that defense? I call it that way! :-({|=
Click to expand...


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## Howard Gaines III

Working with dogs around livestock IS fun and full of danger. Real stockdogs use so many skills in doing their jobs that some never have a clue.

This is why it kills me when some want to just "give their dog the farm experence" and let their dog just chase sheep rather than use the mental skills of controlling and herding. 

Then you have the issues of the handler being hurt from stock crashing into you...:-\"

Defense/offense and getting the heck out of the way!


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Daryl Ehret said:


> That all seems reasonable for the stock dog, to include the thresholds for defense. It's difficult to imagine my dog feeling threatened by livestock, but then, I've only worked with those pansy AKC flocks. When Hutch and Nyx were messing with a horned bull (without my consent), their best "defense" was staying out of reach. That bull was being pretty overt though, with his intentions.


 
The fight drive dog would have taken a hold and wouldn't have given it up for love or money--die trying. Notice I never said they were smart. A couple I've labeled suicidal. My first GSD stood stark still with a pissed off cow running dead at her. I couldn't get her to move. I was literally yelling "run." That's the nerves. They don't give ground. Oh yeah, she won. A cow wise dog will hold ground yet have an open side. GSDs are head on. In those situations, all you can do is keep quiet, lest you destroy his concentration/timing which will give the stock the edge. In a true fight, I would never out my dog. You have to make sure the stock has truly given to the dog before you call him off. Stock will take advantage of your interference. All of this I've seen with the AKC flocks you've mentioned. When we are conditioning training/trial stock, we take out excessive flight and any fight stock we can identify. That's the conditioning dog's job--to train it out. However, again, then the stock works for a dog with power and authority but will try to play games with the weaker or unsure dog. Trainers are always on the lookout for this. You don't want a dog in training to have a negative experience.

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie

rick smith said:


> wow, the more i read the more i'm beginning to think working stock is a lot more dangerous than i ever thought !
> - a whole part of the dog world i have missed out on, and would sure like to see dogs working stock, but probably will never get the chance
> - as a kid i did have a lot of time around black angus, but they weren't worked with dogs and as long as i knew where the bull was i felt pretty safe
> - was around wild mountain goats a lot too, but they could be backed down pretty easy without a dog
> - but i always assumed livestock, being the dumb veggies they are, had little if any of the drives or aggression of a canine.....and that's why small nimble dogs with predatory EC could manipulate an animal much bigger and get them to yield space
> - sorry it's way off topic, but do stock herds have "alphas" that need to be watched more carefully too ?
> ....on second thought; don't care of it's off topic; just curious


No, there's a reason protection dogs came from stock dogs. It takes nerves and power to manage stock more given to fight than flight; to keep them from doing what they want to do; and in numbers from 200--600; for entire days. They were also expected to guard. If its nervy on stock, it will be nervy on man and vice/versa. Same drives; same instincts.

Terrasita


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## Charles Guyer

Don Turnipseed said:


> Waahhh, wahhh, wahhh. Told you James. I am not a trainer.....but I can get a dog to do what I want. Even without ever seeing a treat.


I don't need treats to make my dogs shit in the yard and breed either.


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## Travis Ragin

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> No, there's a reason protection dogs came from stock dogs.*It takes nerves and power to manage stock more given to fight than flight:to keep them from doing what they want to do;and in numbers from 200-600;for entire days.*They were also expected to guard. If its nervy on stock, it will be nervy on man and vice/versa. Same drives; same instincts.
> 
> Terrasita


Hi T,

You've perked my ears up with this post! great insight:smile:



t


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## Sara Waters

Out of my 3 sheepdogs, only 2 have the mental stength to work my lambs and ewes and only one does it really well - understands the balance between force and giving the ewe space. I have one particular nasty ewe who is super protective of her lambs and will charge my dogs with intent. My BC will stand his ground and give her space to move forward so she doesnt feel her lamb is being threatened, but if she charges to connect with him he will bite her on the nose and tackle her physically. Stock are very good at sensing weakness.

The most amazing dogs I saw years ago were the cattle dogs working wild station cattle, they were extremely tough and yes some of them did get killed.

Cattle dogs are also used as pig dogs and the only dog that I have owned that I would call a natural protector, ie would take on a human if that human made an aggressive move or stared her in the eyes was a cattle dog.


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## Jennifer Michelson

I saw this a little while ago and thought it was a good example of stock dogs needing defense. I have also seen sheep getting aggressive with dogs....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VR3TcorqKW8&sns=fb


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Jennifer Michelson said:


> I saw this a little while ago and thought it was a good example of stock dogs needing defense. I have also seen sheep getting aggressive with dogs....
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VR3TcorqKW8&sns=fb


Well yes, but there's some stuff going on in this clip that increase the chance for injury and putting the cattle in fight especially in that small arena.

T


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## Kadi Thingvall

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> If its nervy on stock, it will be nervy on man and vice/versa.


I agree with everything you said, except for the quoted part. I've seen dogs who were strong on stock and nervy with people, or conversly strong on humans and nervy on stock. And when I say strong on stock I don't mean AKC trial stock, I mean I have seen them work some tough stock who would happily have stomped them without blinking an eye, but were spooky around people. If this was correct, we'd see lots of BCs in protection. 

I don't think "nerves" are a single entity, kind of like "drives". I think you have social nerves, environmental nerves, etc. And dogs can be strong in one area, and weak in another, weak in all of them, strong in all of them, etc.

I will agree though that the best dog will be strong on both livestock and humans


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## Maren Bell Jones

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Well yes, but there's some stuff going on in this clip that increase the chance for injury and putting the cattle in fight especially in that small arena.
> 
> T


True, but I've worked cattle for veterinary work in much closer quarters than that arena down alleyways getting them to load and unload, going to the sorting tub before getting them in the chute, and such (and unfortunately without the benefit of a good dog). Even a relatively easy going dairy cow can give you the eye and make you remember who outweighs who by a considerable margin. I've never gotten hurt, thank goodness, but I know many who have and man, it's dangerous stuff. Heck, they even have high dollar rodeo bulls bred for aggression come into the vet school relatively frequently. Very dangerous indeed. Would have been nice to have a good dog in certain situations. Now I'll only see sheep and goats, no cattle. Bad back and all... :smile:


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## James Downey

Don Turnipseed said:


> Waahhh, wahhh, wahhh. Told you James. I am not a trainer.....but I can get a dog to do what I want. Even without ever seeing a treat.


Your right you're not a trainer.


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## Bob Scott

The dogs size up the stock just as the stock size up the dog and the size of the dog has nothing to do with it's ability to control stock.
Even in AKC trials you will see stock that is wiling to stomp a mud hole in a dog's ass. Cattle in particular. There is one tiny little BC in this area that can get the cattle's respect just walking in the pen. Other dogs look pretty much like targets when they enter on the same draw. T knows the dog I'm talking about. Wayne's little bitch. It's about a dogs heart/attitude/presence. Size and/or training can't give that to a stock dog anymore then training can make a strong sport or street K9 it the dog doesn't have that heart/attitude/presence.
I've also seen a show line Sheltie that has all the control in the world on cattle. (Tammy's little tri).
Both these dogs also work stock in the real world so it's way more then a handler placing a dog with whistles and hand signals for points.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I agree with everything you said, except for the quoted part. I've seen dogs who were strong on stock and nervy with people, or conversly strong on humans and nervy on stock. And when I say strong on stock I don't mean AKC trial stock, I mean I have seen them work some tough stock who would happily have stomped them without blinking an eye, but were spooky around people. If this was correct, we'd see lots of BCs in protection.
> 
> I don't think "nerves" are a single entity, kind of like "drives". I think you have social nerves, environmental nerves, etc. And dogs can be strong in one area, and weak in another, weak in all of them, strong in all of them, etc.
> 
> I will agree though that the best dog will be strong on both livestock and humans


What breed were they? How much was training and how much natural. So far, the only breed I would agree with you is the Border Collie. Somehow their stock temperament is separate from environmental and people. They can be people/environment nervy but you don't see that with stock. However, some will turn into feral fear with storms and run blind even with stock present. 

Terrasita


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## Sara Waters

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> What breed were they? How much was training and how much natural. So far, the only breed I would agree with you is the Border Collie. Somehow their stock temperament is separate from environmental and people. They can be people/environment nervy but you don't see that with stock. However, some will turn into feral fear with storms and run blind even with stock present.
> 
> Terrasita


My kelpie is similar. She is afraid of strong livestock but will greet strange people with no fear these days. She is actually quite a social dog and is fine at agility trials, but an aggressive ewe gives her the eye and she is not keen at all to continue and would rather run back home.


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## Christopher Jones

About the only the only thing i can add to this already stupid thread is finding out where i can see some photos of Ariel?


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## Christopher Jones

Link removed .... see below

Mods


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## Ariel Peldunas

If I wanted pictures of myself on the WDF, I would have posted them myself in the appropriate section. Not that much of this thread has been on topic anyway, but your post certainly isn't adding anything. And I find it curious that of all the more relevant pictures of me working dogs that can be found on the internet, you would choose one of me from a Halloween party five years ago.



*
Removed as pointless and bizarrely off topic.

Mods*


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## Kadi Thingvall

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> What breed were they? How much was training and how much natural. So far, the only breed I would agree with you is the Border Collie. Somehow their stock temperament is separate from environmental and people. They can be people/environment nervy but you don't see that with stock. However, some will turn into feral fear with storms and run blind even with stock present.


All the ones I can think of off hand were BCs. Some I met as adults so I couldn't tell you for sure how much was natural vs environment, but based on what their owners were telling me I'd hazard a lot of it was natural, ie the owners mentioned they were always kind of shy. Others I knew young, and it was natural. Maybe made worse by environment in some cases, but it had a natural basis. One of the dogs might have been a Kelpie, I can't remember but I do remember it was black and tan.


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## Kadi Thingvall

I should probably add that based on what I hear, this is also found in Belgians. These are for the most part dogs I don't think I've seen on livestock myself, so their "strong" may not be my version of strong, but I hear on a semi-regular basis from Terv and Groen people, and also on occasion from conformation/performance type Malinois people, about dogs that are strong herding dogs, capable of working tough stock. But then I hear about the same dog around people having issues. Some have been tested for bitework and failed, others are just described as being less than 100% confident around people.


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## Howard Gaines III

And look at what we are testing, herding breeds! This isn't saying that the other breeds can't or don't have prey drives, but the prey element seems very strong here; naturally generated and refined by humans. \\/

Expanding on a point that was mentioned, testing the ability of the dog to be worked in prey and defense. Two strengths which MUST be found for livestock, sport, PSD, and PPD applications.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Maren Bell Jones said:


> True, but I've worked cattle for veterinary work in much closer quarters than that arena down alleyways getting them to load and unload, going to the sorting tub before getting them in the chute, and such (and unfortunately without the benefit of a good dog). Even a relatively easy going dairy cow can give you the eye and make you remember who outweighs who by a considerable margin. I've never gotten hurt, thank goodness, but I know many who have and man, it's dangerous stuff. Heck, they even have high dollar rodeo bulls bred for aggression come into the vet school relatively frequently. Very dangerous indeed. Would have been nice to have a good dog in certain situations. Now I'll only see sheep and goats, no cattle. Bad back and all... :smile:


If you are going to work cattle w/o a dog then you study Temple Grandin and books like Move'em and you study cattle. It took me 20 minutes to negotiate my way out of a pen with a cow that I'd been around for years that for some reason decided I didn't need to exist. That was the end of my going to feed real quick without a dog. Didn't think I needed the dog because I wasn't going to move them anywhere. One of our club members now has three fractured veterbra from some cattle chute situation. She was helping her neighbor vaccinate and they had dogs involved. I'm not one with cows. I've learned them and I like to know that my dogs have the nerves and confidence to work them but that's it. No matter what, the risk for injury is pretty high.

T


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## Christopher Jones

Ariel Peldunas said:


> If I wanted pictures of myself on the WDF, I would have posted them myself in the appropriate section. Not that much of this thread has been on topic anyway, but your post certainly isn't adding anything. And I find it curious that of all the more relevant pictures of me working dogs that can be found on the internet, you would choose one of me from a Halloween party five years ago.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Removed as pointless and bizarrely off topic.*
> 
> *Mods*


Freetime + Boredom + Reading Dons Stupid Posts + Internet = Im sorry Ariel.....


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## Lee H Sternberg

Ariel Peldunas said:


> If I wanted pictures of myself on the WDF, I would have posted them myself in the appropriate section. Not that much of this thread has been on topic anyway, but your post certainly isn't adding anything. And I find it curious that of all the more relevant pictures of me working dogs that can be found on the internet, you would choose one of me from a Halloween party five years ago.
> 
> 
> 
> *
> Removed as pointless and bizarrely off topic.
> 
> Mods*



I must have somehow missed the "Personal Portrait Section". Where is that located?:razz:


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## Ariel Peldunas

Christopher Jones said:


> Freetime + Boredom + Reading Dons Stupid Posts + Internet = Im sorry Ariel.....


Apology accepted ...and bonus points for your assessment of Don's posts!


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## Thomas Barriano

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Apology accepted ...and bonus points for your assessment of Don's posts!


Ariel,

Did you see the Halloween pictures that David Felliciano posted last year? Now those pictures should never have seen the light of day


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## Sara Waters

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> If you are going to work cattle w/o a dog then you study Temple Grandin and books like Move'em and you study cattle. It took me 20 minutes to negotiate my way out of a pen with a cow that I'd been around for years that for some reason decided I didn't need to exist. That was the end of my going to feed real quick without a dog. Didn't think I needed the dog because I wasn't going to move them anywhere. One of our club members now has three fractured veterbra from some cattle chute situation. She was helping her neighbor vaccinate and they had dogs involved. I'm not one with cows. I've learned them and I like to know that my dogs have the nerves and confidence to work them but that's it. No matter what, the risk for injury is pretty high.
> 
> T


I dont trust cattle either. Those Jersey bulls though small and pretty are particularly nasty critters. They are too big to mess with. 

Mind you I was dealing with one of my foundation ewes, a ewe with impeccable temperament and trying to save one of her lambs this year. I had her in a pen and my mother came into help me. The ewe took exception to my mother who she didnt know and decided to charge her with intent. My BC was just outside the yards in a lie down and jumped in and distracted her while I got my mother out of there.

I have seen a cattle dog rush in to deal with a wild cow that was trying to kill her owner after he came off his horse. She managed to distract the cow long enough for another hand to grab the man, fortunately without injury. That dog was giving it all she had. Dont really care what type of drive it was LOL


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Sara Waters said:


> I dont trust cattle either. Those Jersey bulls though small and pretty are particularly nasty critters. They are too big to mess with.
> 
> Mind you I was dealing with one of my foundation ewes, a ewe with impeccable temperament and trying to save one of her lambs this year. I had her in a pen and my mother came into help me. The ewe took exception to my mother who she didnt know and decided to charge her with intent. My BC was just outside the yards in a lie down and jumped in and distracted her while I got my mother out of there.
> 
> I have seen a cattle dog rush in to deal with a wild cow that was trying to kill her owner after he came off his horse. She managed to distract the cow long enough for another hand to grab the man, fortunately without injury. That dog was giving it all she had. Dont really care what type of drive it was LOL


I don't do ewes with lambs or rams without a dog. My friend asked me years ago how I got through the field with the ewes and lambs with a dog. The ewes would go after her aussies and chase the dogs. Same thing with the calves and the mama cow. I told her a couple of them thought about it until Teva turned on the cold stare. Then they gave it up. The guy that is gonna provide the cattle for our March trial told me that a ram went after him and he was in the hospital for 10 days. With all my farmer-in-trainer stuff, I spent a lot of time really thinking it through, having the right dog for the job and setting it up geographically so that I wouldn't get nailed.

T


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## Christopher Smith

Thomas Barriano said:


> Ariel,
> 
> Did you see the Halloween pictures that David Felliciano posted last year? Now those pictures should never have seen the light of day


Put the lotion and tube sock away Thomas.


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## Sara Waters

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I don't do ewes with lambs or rams without a dog. My friend asked me years ago how I got through the field with the ewes and lambs with a dog. The ewes would go after her aussies and chase the dogs. Same thing with the calves and the mama cow. I told her a couple of them thought about it until Teva turned on the cold stare. Then they gave it up. The guy that is gonna provide the cattle for our March trial told me that a ram went after him and he was in the hospital for 10 days. With all my farmer-in-trainer stuff, I spent a lot of time really thinking it through, having the right dog for the job and setting it up geographically so that I wouldn't get nailed.
> 
> T


There is nothing like a dog with the capacity to deal with rams and ewes with lambs. I am very lucky that my BC has no problems and will tackle them if he has to. Now he has matured somewhat I take him with me when I deal with that type of stock because I know he has my back. Even is a confined space of a pen he is very strong and shows no fear.

No idea what he would be like on cattle though, there are some very good BCs bred to deal with cattle apparently but I would still be favouring a good tough station bred cattle dog on wild cattle. Big Koolies are alo good on cattle. Sounds like a GSD could also be formidable on cattle.

I have noticed that stock will readily chase dogs if they sense any weakness at all. My ewes are formidable against foxes when they have lambs, super aggressive.


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## Bob Scott

"I have noticed that stock will readily chase dogs if they sense any weakness at all."


I think that's determined by both sides as soon as the dog walks in the pen/field. Amazing to see how fast it happens. 
Thunder's' first encounter with a goat that was known for punishing dogs lasted all of a couple of seconds. The goat would still stomp and challenge from a distance but moved willingly when the gap closed. 
Same thing with thunder's first experience with cattle. There were a couple of them that would stomp and paw at the ground when we went in that field. The walked towards us and Thunder walked towards them. Almost nose to nose when the cattle decided it was best to say uncle. No barking, nor rush in for a bite. Just walked slowly forward and stare them down.
T didn't want Thunder working cattle. I think she called it suicide by cow with Thunder. :lol:
I saw the same thing with Thunder and a horse when I was helping feed that day. Big Arabian cross that wanted to eat Thunder. Ears and head flat and running at him with bad intent. I called him back because he wasn't going to move and I sure didn't think that horse was going to say uncle.


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## Sara Waters

Yes I have seen a few good dogs killed by cattle. Horses are something I keep my dogs well away from. They are a completely different kettle of fish. I once nearly had one of my cattle dogs killed by a horse. It was down right scary.

I was working on a cotton farm along a stock route once and I was down on the route dealing with an irrigation pump when a drover when past with his dogs , horses and cattle. The dogs and loose stock horses were actually working together to move the cattle, I noticed this on a number of occasions, it was all about the context.


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## Bob Scott

My youngest brother had a large pony (13 hands) that HATED dogs. She took him up on a porch going after a neighbors dog. 
He knew her from the time she was born and raised her from a 12 wk old orphan. No reason for it. She just wanted to kill all of them. Dad's little spitz x wouldn't even go out the back door because of her. Of course my brother's rooster used to beat the crap out of that little cur too. :lol:


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## susan tuck

I had a quarter horse that used to stomp chickens and chase dogs. He stalked them too. I used to find dead chicks in his stall and if I turned him out in the arena, and a dog wandered in for any reason all bets were off.


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## Thomas Barriano

Christopher Smith said:


> Put the lotion and tube sock away Thomas.


Strange that when I mention the pictures of your personal buddy David . YOU think of lotion and tube socks????
Did you ever find the AWDF rule about ONE Score book per dog
that you were looking for? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


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