# Schutzhund Training Methods



## Tanya Beka (Aug 12, 2008)

I went to view a local Schutzhund club yesterday to see about joining to help train a client's dog in the sport.

I was told it was one of the more positive based training clubs, but when I arrived I witnessed EVERY dog in e-collars for the training. I asked what percentage of people used e-collars and he said 100%. A trainer there told me that that they were used on a very low level just as "stimulation", but I couldn't help but notice the dogs during OB work yelping loudly when "stimulated".

I agree that e-collars and pinch collars have their place in training, I have occasionally used them to help clients and their dogs, but I always choose the positive motivational method before and see if I can get the dog to figure it out that way first. 98% of the time it works well. 

Are there no clubs out there that don't shock the heck out of the dogs during training or use large pinch collars for hard corrections? And if not, why?


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

Tanya Beka said:


> I went to view a local Schutzhund club yesterday to see about joining to help train a client's dog in the sport.
> 
> Do you have experience in Schutzhund?
> 
> ...


What kind of dog is your clients dog? How many years have you been training? Who did you learn from? 

E-collars and pinch collars are pretty normal and in no way negative (IMHO). Teach your dog (bribe your dog) and then add in a very high level of distraction and then come back and tell me how well it worked when you had the flat collar on him? How effective was that correction? 

My AB weighs in at 105# and my GSD is pushing 90# they are both strong dogs and can take a huge strong man with a pinch and act as if nothing happened. Or with my handicap body I can stim them and make it nice an easy.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

ever see a dog get "cleaned up" in the blind? If you can't handle the ecollar or a pinch just wait until you see a dog get whacked in the head a few times for coming in dirty.


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

LOL good point Chris =D>


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## Sarah ten Bensel (Mar 16, 2008)

I agree with Julia. Use of ecollars CAN be a part of a positive training program. better look at the whole picture of the club--are the dogs happily working? Are they beaten down, etc. Do they allow members choices in the approaches to training? Go with an open mind and don't try techniques you aren't OK with. If they aren't OK with that, go elsewhere.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: 
I agree that e-collars and pinch collars have their place in training, I have occasionally used them to help clients and their dogs, but I always choose the positive motivational method before and see if I can get the dog to figure it out that way first. 98% of the time it works well. 

You are a pet trainer. "Pet". This is manstyle. We have (for the most part) much better and mentally stronger dogs. Positive is cute and all but I believe that it takes a certain type of dog to work this way in a sport that has the biggest reward at the other end of the field.

There are many many dogs that yelp when being corrected because they are dicks, and it has nothing to do with the level of correction. They figured out that if they yelp, then there is fussing done to see why the collar made them yelp and so there is a break in the pressure. Doesn't mean that the dog was getting it.

THis weekend, I was working on fixing Buko's time limit problem in the defense of handler. CANNOT do this with a leash, as he will not do stupid shit with the leash on.

Had the Dogtra on 40, finger on the nick button to discourage him, and he ignored it. I hit continuous, and he ignored it, I lost my temper as I told him no and he was ignoring me, so I turned the dial all the way up, and he yelped, and came back. There is just so many OTHER factors that screw up training, that to dismiss something because a stupid dog yelped, is silly.


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## Tanya Beka (Aug 12, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote:
> You are a pet trainer. "Pet". This is manstyle. We have (for the most part) much better and mentally stronger dogs. Positive is cute and all but I believe that it takes a certain type of dog to work this way in a sport that has the biggest reward at the other end of the field.


"Manstyle"? You mean full of ego and contempt for any other kind of training? That is hilarious! WHile I make my living training "pets", I have muzzle fought police dogs, decoyed police dogs and helped train "much better and mentally stronger dogs" with positive only methods. No e-collars, no pinch collars, no choke chains. Just flat leather collars and leashes. In a span of about 20 minutes I watched a HARD malinois who WOULD NOT out the sleeve under any circumstances unless choked nearly to unconsciousness, voluntarily spit out the sleeve - training method 100% positive, flat collar only.

I get really sick of hearing sport dog trainers talk down to "pet" trainers and say that we have never seen or worked with "real" dogs before. get your ego out of your pants. I am here to learn and get information - not be berated by the likes of you.





Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: THis weekend, I was working on fixing Buko's time limit problem in the defense of handler. CANNOT do this with a leash, as he will not do stupid shit with the leash on.
> 
> Had the Dogtra on 40, finger on the nick button to discourage him, and he ignored it. I hit continuous, and he ignored it, I lost my temper as I told him no and he was ignoring me, so I turned the dial all the way up, and he yelped, and came back. There is just so many OTHER factors that screw up training, that to dismiss something because a stupid dog yelped, is silly.


But aren't there other ways to train these problems? Or do you have to just use the e-collar to fix it? Isn't that taking the easy way out and diminishing the respectful bond you have with your dog and increasing his stress level?


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

...and the fun begins


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Tanya Beka said:


> But aren't there other ways to train these problems? Or do you have to just use the e-collar to fix it? Isn't that taking the easy way out and diminishing the respectful bond you have with your dog and increasing his stress level?


There are many ways to the top of the mountain. Some people train with 100% motivational and others use motivational, correction and force. Why do you assume using an ecollar is "easy" and why would an ecollar or pinch collar "diminish" anything? It sounds to me like you have never used either tool correctly, so why would you make a judgement against something you are not familiar with?

If you don't want to use them, that's your perogative. I think maybe Bob Scott's club does a lot of motivational work, though I don't know how they feel about people who pass judgement on things they have no working knowledge of.

No one here was rude or disrespectful to you, including Jeff. He was painfully direct, didn't sugar coat it, never does. The strange thing is the one reply you responded to was Jeff's, even though the jist of what he said was basically the same as what everyone else said.


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

Jeff just got served.... [-X no you didn't.... LOL


I think your question was on Schutzhund clubs that don't use the e-collar or pinch collars right? Good luck with that. I never have heard of a club that doesn't use one, the other or both.

I think Bob here uses no correction training. You might want to PM him.

The problem many I am having with your post is this.


> Are there no clubs out there that don't shock the heck out of the dogs during training or use large pinch collars for hard corrections?


 It sounds very negative and ignorant.

When you get into training like Jeff tried to say (in his special ed kind of way) is that working dogs in drive is nothing like training with cookies.

Now you wont need any help since you have plenty of experience training hard dogs with flat collars where others have failed..... =;


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I trained Thunder's SAR work, AKC CDX and his Schutzhund III without a pinch, e-collar or any leash correction whatever. I'm now doing the same with his herding.
UD and herding titles to come!!!
I've also seen some pretty serious problems solved with motivational only.
This being said I will never dis ANY "properly used" method of dog training. 
"Everybody but me is wrong" doesn't cut it!


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## Tanya Beka (Aug 12, 2008)

Julie Ann Alvarez said:


> What kind of dog is your clients dog? How many years have you been training? Who did you learn from?
> 
> E-collars and pinch collars are pretty normal and in no way negative (IMHO). Teach your dog (bribe your dog) and then add in a very high level of distraction and then come back and tell me how well it worked when you had the flat collar on him? How effective was that correction?


I wouldn't add a high level of distraction right away...I would teach my dog and then slowly build the distraction level up until he could handle it, all the while using motivation and toys to reward him along the way. I don't understand why people set their dogs up to fail and then correct them harshly for it. There are other ways.



Julie Ann Alvarez said:


> My AB weighs in at 105# and my GSD is pushing 90# they are both strong dogs and can take a huge strong man with a pinch and act as if nothing happened. Or with my handicap body I can stim them and make it nice an easy.


The weight of the dog has nothing to do with the training. And calling a "stim" instead of a shock doesn't change what it is.

I'm not here to play the ego-game, as I said in the last reply quote of Jeff. I was honestly trying to find out why there are no positive based schutzhund clubs around... I know of one "clicker-schutzhund" club, but that's it.


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## Tanya Beka (Aug 12, 2008)

Sarah ten Bensel said:


> I agree with Julia. Use of ecollars CAN be a part of a positive training program. better look at the whole picture of the club--are the dogs happily working? Are they beaten down, etc. Do they allow members choices in the approaches to training? Go with an open mind and don't try techniques you aren't OK with. If they aren't OK with that, go elsewhere.


Thank you for the useful reply. I do agree that I need to see more before I make a decision...I just didn't like most of what I saw so far. But I will give it a fair chance and watch more often to see what they are all about.


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## Tanya Beka (Aug 12, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> I trained Thunder's SAR work, AKC CDX and his Schutzhund III without a pinch, e-collar or any leash correction whatever. I'm now doing the same with his herding.
> UD and herding titles to come!!!
> I've also seen some pretty serious problems solved with motivational only.
> This being said I will never dis ANY "properly used" method of dog training.
> "Everybody but me is wrong" doesn't cut it!


I don't think I said everybody but me was wrong, I just wanted more information on why all the clubs I have heard of all use e-collars and pinch collars. I wanted to talk to someone who had done other things...

I knew there was a reason I never posted anything on this forum...everyone is so touchy and there isn't a lot of information sharing without bashing involved. ](*,)


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

:-o Tanya! Calm down!:-$ 
My comments were about to many people out there that say everyone else is wrong. Wasn't ment as a shot to you. 
I'm just a nice ol granpa. Honest! 8-[  

All motivational does work but, as jeff said, I personelly believe that it's best geared to a particular type of dog. Now I do believe that MANY of the sport or working dogs will fit that "type". You want a dog with lots of play/prey and a dog that had great pack drive (willingness to work with the human). 
It also doensn't have to be a sissy dog in order to be motivationally trained, which some believe.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Well gee, what did you expect when you started this whole thing off with:

"Are there no clubs out there that don't shock the heck out of the dogs during training or use large pinch collars for hard corrections?"

Nope Tanya, there are no clubs in the whole world that don't shock the shit out of their dogs and don't gouge big giant holes in the necks of their dogs giving them hard corrections. Schutzhund is a really old German word that means Saddists Who Torture Dogs For Fun.

What a stupid question.


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

> The weight of the dog has nothing to do with the training. And calling a "stim" instead of a shock doesn't change what it is.
> 
> I'm not here to play the ego-game, as I said in the last reply quote of Jeff. I was honestly trying to find out why there are no positive based schutzhund clubs around... I know of one "clicker-schutzhund" club, but that's it.


Oh but you are.

Your tone is not that of some one wanting help but that of someone passing judgement.

BTW/ The size of the dog has plenty to do with training. When you factor size, speed, drive, strength into the equation you may need to adjust your training to fit that particular dog and his session goal. Correcting a dog with a high pain tollerance and plenty of size can be a challenge. 

Using an e-collar to stem (*NOT SHOCK*) can be a godsend. Do you consider the vibrate page functiona a SHOCK? Have you ever tried one on yourself?


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

so during the bark and hold routine do you want real I'm gonna ****ing kill you barking or may I please have another cookie barking?


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## Tanya Beka (Aug 12, 2008)

What about "Give my friggin toy now!" barking? 

Bob, thank you for the encouragement. I'd like to get more into sport dog training (whether it be schutzhund or ring or what have you) but am having a tough time finding a club that has the same beliefs as I do regarding training.

To those I offended with my original question, I'm sorry. I guess I could have worded it differently. 

What I meant to ask was: "Are there any motivational based schutzhund clubs out there? Is there a reason that most of them use e-collars for training in schutzhund?"

Better?


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

in schH you don't want to be using body language. So when you're getting ready for a trail and you're working on your attention heeling. You need to look forward. How are you going to know if the dog is doing the right thing? You don't. That's why you have a training helper who has the remote who buzzes the dog at the right moment to correct it. On a club level this isn't going to matter that much.

I've seen one 100% clicker schH club and thought ALL of the dogs looked pretty weak and thought it was sad that schH had been watered down to that level. After all you're testing and channeling drives, it's not just an obedience sport.

Every dog that I have seen that was trained to do the bark and hold with a clicker or other form of positive motivation looked weak and otherwise ridiculous to me.


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## Mike Di Rago (Jan 9, 2009)

The E collar like all other tools has it's use in certain situations with certain dogs. Like all tools the problem is when trainers think that they have just found THE ultimate tool that will solve all problems. The E collar suffers from the same problem many other techniques have faced in the past. They become fashions. The E collar should not lead to laziness on the part of the trainer. There are no shortcuts in dog training and sometimes you must sit down and think about how to get your dog to do what you want him to do but that he should think that he is doing what he wants to do. That is the attitude to have if you want a dog that is happy doing what he does. But then again it depends on what you really want in a working/sport dog. 
But then again that is just my opinion!
Mike


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## Tanya Beka (Aug 12, 2008)

Thanks Mike, good thoughts. I agree. Thanks for posting.


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

Tanya… one thing you might want to do a little research into is the pinch collar. When used correctly (just like any other piece of equipment) it is very humane. In fact a study done many years ago showed that dogs worked on pinch collars tended to have less trachea damage than dogs worked on choke chains.

Also.. the “larger” pinch collars you referred to actually deliver less of a correction than their smaller linked counterparts. When I use to compete in Obedience with my PSD I actually used a “small” linked pinch collar on my dog because it delivered the better correction for cleaning up my obedience.

Unfortunately every dog is different and no dog is perfect or we would all be agreeing on everything that is dog training.


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## Eros Kopliku (Jan 30, 2008)

Matthew Grubb said:


> Also.. the “larger” pinch collars you referred to actually deliver less of a correction than their smaller linked counterparts. When I use to compete in Obedience with my PSD I actually used a “small” linked pinch collar on my dog because it delivered the better correction for cleaning up my obedience.


Yes, we too use large pinch collars because they are easier on the dog. The dog can still pull and not correct itself out of drive.


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## Aris Tsaras (Jun 2, 2009)

Julie Ann Alvarez said:


> Oh but you are.
> 
> Your tone is not that of some one wanting help but that of someone passing judgement.


Exactly…

If you started this thread off respectfully (genuinely asking a practical question) you would have been met respectively. You shouldn’t pass judgment on other people or their training methods that you know nothing about. Assuming that e-collars are or any training devise is solely negative or used negatively is very narrow-minded. 

Did you speak with anyone at any of the clubs you visited? Did you ask questions? I’m sure that you didn’t…and that’s a shame. 

I wish you the best of luck.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Tanya , 

When you get numerous dogs to high levels of Schtz. using your methods please keep us updated . I think if you learn more about the sport your opinions on the type of training it takes to get them there will change . BUt if you have success I'm very eager to listen to you on how you got them there. 

I've had quite a few people make similiar statements as yours (in a very similiar tone too) about training Police K9's . 

Many of the statements you've made so far shows your lack of knowledge . Like others have said large prongs give less of a correction . Most folks I train with know using the e-collar by giving high level stims is counter productive . Also first teaching a dog using rewards (toys , food , praise , etc. ) with no distractions , then working up the distractions is a basic training concept in most PSD and Schutz. training I have seen . Most of the trainers I know feel using positive methods as much as possible produces a better K9 but with most dogs we train there comes a time corrections are needed and prongs and e-collars are good tools for this . 

So far I've had folks like you give me there opinions but they have no proof the methods work in the venue I train dogs in . My advice to you is prove it first ( in actual Schutz. training , please don't use you current successes[totally different type of work and often times dogs] ) . Then you will have credibility . 

Right now you're spouting nothing but opinions with no real world knowledge to back it up .


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## Louise Jollyman (Jun 2, 2009)

Hi Tanya,



> What I meant to ask was: "Are there any motivational based schutzhund clubs out there? Is there a reason that most of them use e-collars for training in schutzhund?"


You know, the two don't have to be mutually exclusive. As long as you find a club who let you use the methods you are comfortable with, and you get along with the members, don't let equipment put you off.

I trained my first dog, lets say 80% positive to SchH3, I did not use an e-collar because I wasn't comfortable using that tool, and I know that my doubts about any tool can communicate down the leash and cause reactions in my dog. After he reached SchH3, a friend of mine introduced us to electric, and I found that my dog became clearer, and did not lose his enthusiasm.

I love using a clicker and shaping, and I start all my puppies and new behaviors that way, but I also use an e-collar and a prong. My current dog wears his e-collar a lot, out walking, during training, and he doesn't very often get a correction using it. I have also begun using Bart Bellon's NEPOPO technique in the last few years, and am just really impressed with it. As far as prongs, my dog wears a small prong for obedience, and a large prong for protection. 

For me personally, I find using prongs and e-collars allow me to train more quickly. I don't have to spend a long time desensitizing. I particularly like it for the recall, saves me having to spend months tripping over a long line and finding endless squirrels to help me with distractions!

Best of luck,

- Louise Jollyman - 
'It's Bode, he's famous!' 
http://www.bodeus.com
http://www.brimwylf.com
http://www.schutzhund-training.com


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## Tanya Beka (Aug 12, 2008)

Thank you, I appreciate the positive reply stating that is IS possible to train for schutzhund with more motivational methods. I like your website, thank you for the information! it's good stuff and great to see methods that I prefer actually being used successfully...it give me hope, thanks!

I also own a pinch and a basic e-collar, I just don't want to have to rely on them in training...I want to use more positive methods and use them only when needed, not for everything.

Thanks!


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Tanya Beka said:


> Thank you, I appreciate the positive reply stating that is IS possible to train for schutzhund with more motivational methods. I like your website, thank you for the information! it's good stuff and great to see methods that I prefer actually being used successfully...it give me hope, thanks!
> 
> I also own a pinch and a basic e-collar, I just don't want to have to rely on them in training...I want to use more positive methods and use them only when needed, not for everything.
> 
> Thanks!


NM


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Matthew Grubb said:


> Tanya… one thing you might want to do a little research into is the pinch collar. When used correctly (just like any other piece of equipment) it is very humane. In fact a study done many years ago showed that dogs worked on pinch collars tended to have less trachea damage than dogs worked on choke chains.
> 
> Also.. the “larger” pinch collars you referred to actually deliver less of a correction than their smaller linked counterparts. When I use to compete in Obedience with my PSD I actually used a “small” linked pinch collar on my dog because it delivered the better correction for cleaning up my obedience.
> 
> Unfortunately every dog is different and no dog is perfect or we would all be agreeing on everything that is dog training.


Matthew,

I have to talk in the past tense or hypothetically as pinch collars and e-collar are not allowed in Switzerland. (Got it?).

The only pinch collar for me was the "sharpened" pinch collar, otherwise the trachea damage you mention could be the same with the blunt pinch collar.

The pinch collar (without the chain in between) and tight around the dog's neck was very effective for "checking" or "stimulating" the dog. Just like with the E-collar, where many say the "stim" is equivalent of "shock", this is not so. The stim on the e-collar can "stim"ulate the dog into doing what he wants to but even more so. 

I went to a weekend training with Ronny van den Bergh and he showed us his idea of the advantage of the prong (sharpened) collar with the chain insert so that when the dog was in the car, etc. he didn't feel the "prongs". This is his idea.

My idea would be that the prong collar, with chain insert, would be a valuable tool for checking the dog for pulling, etc. but is far too labile for corrections in sport. Here, the sharpened pinch collar, high up and tightly around the dog's neck would be far more effective.

There are limitations of course, as "here" on the recall and moments where the dog should be checked without associating it with handler in wich the e-collar works admirably.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Tanya Beka said:


> I went to view a local Schutzhund club yesterday to see about joining to help train a client's dog in the sport.
> 
> I was told it was one of the more positive based training clubs, but when I arrived I witnessed EVERY dog in e-collars for the training. I asked what percentage of people used e-collars and he said 100%. A trainer there told me that that they were used on a very low level just as "stimulation", but I couldn't help but notice the dogs during OB work yelping loudly when "stimulated".
> 
> ...


John "Mohawk" Wiitanen (sorry if I spelled your last name wrong) Just took 7th going 93-93-96 at the AWDF Natl's out of 65+ dogs...I trained with him for about the last 6 months...He never once used any kind of correction collar to train his dog. And Jack is no slouch, he is high drive, ready to go, and gets angry on the bite....Now that takes talent!!! I doubt many can lay claim to scores like that without using a pinch or e-collar.

I have heard all the BS, and also spit it myslef about how the collar is low stim and what not. But guess what if the dog is working to avoid the correction...it's gotta be unpleasent enough to make the dog work to avoid it.

I tihnk there are trainers out there being more respectful to the dog...But I think there are many more making claims that they are, but really are just training like most...Some positive training, some adversive.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

"Respectful to the dog"!
James, you get it!!!


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

As in respectful, I think many people try to justify thier "introducing discomfort (corrections)" as respectful, ethical or what not. Now I have used correction, I also have spit the BS about how I am doing it in away that does not make me a bad guy. But it's BS. Causing pain to make the dog work, whether the dog works or not is still causing pain. Whipping a slave to keep him moving is no less unethical just because he understands that if he keeps moving the whip may not come...Or that it's done at the right time or the right intensity...threatening something with pain, simply is not very respectful

I think the less conflict you cause, the less the dog has to be concerned about another correction coming over the long run you will have a better trained dog. Now, have I found a full proof way to do this...Nope! But I do admire Tanya for trying to have success with less adversive methods. And I share her quest...A little because I would just rather not inflict on my friend...but for more selfish reasons...I think it makes a better dog.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

This will stir up the pot but I believe the dog and handler have a better bond with less compulsion. I also believe it's also harder to do it correctly AND to do it correctly calls for the correct dog, which most sport and working dogs fit the bill. 
It should be a team! Definately with a team leader but not just a master slave relationship.
To many view their dog as an object to achieve a goal. 
When it IS used, a "correction" doesn't have to cause pain! All JMHO of course! :grin: :grin: :wink:


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

I also am going to challenge the idea that you can teach a dog to deal with correction...I have yet to hear anyone explain in detail a logical plan to teach a dog how to deal with correction. I also have yet to see this magical that dog that does not in someway react to correction. There are dogs that do not cower and shut off...this is often seen as the "hard dog"...But I think that it shows up. Now, I cannot prove it. But I seen a guy try to get his dog to stop firing up at the sight of any grass field. he did everything from shaking the dog to kicking him in the nuts...the dog soon would stop downing on articles. he stopped worrying about the dog firing up at the sight of a training field and within a few weeks the dog started downing on the articles again. And the field he was being corrected for barking at was the OB, and PR field...not the tracking field. 

I also would like to know that anyone whom claims you cannot train a dog without using correction to a high level, actually tried? And I mean really tried? 

With barking, I think there are other ways to elict more convincing barking without using pain...in my experience people who use the pinch to induce strong barking are successful, but only after the dog has been stimulated with the pinch...the dog always barks like shit, then gets corrected, barking turns on, the dog gets rewarded and this becomes the pattern...so in a trial the dog hits blind 6 barking very like it always does, and that's it. And many dogs...get the looky-loos because they are concerned about the crazy man behind them and not they guy in front of them. I think there are many many variables that determine how a dog barks at the man, besides if you use solely reward with barking or use stimulation of a collar to induce good barking...one of them is the genetic limitations of the dog. I have a female with an excellent bark and hold that is very convincing. all I ever used was reward...I even tried to make it better with a myrad of training methods...nothing matters, nothing changes. Genetically she is limited on to why she barks.


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## Tanya Beka (Aug 12, 2008)

I appreciate all the lates replies. Theya re kind and helpful. I will continue my quest in more positive sport dog training. Perhaps I can start my own club one day...there are no clubs around me that don't use compulsion or hard correction.

Thanks for the hope the last few replies have given me. I agree, a dog and handler are a team and you can't have a good relationship with a team mate if he is always looking over his shoulder wondering when the next "stim" will come.

Thanks! I appreciate the postive trainers speaking up and sharing.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Tanya, don't count out "good" compulsion training. Just to many IMHO that misuse/abuse it.


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## kristin tresidder (Oct 23, 2008)

Tanya Beka said:


> In a span of about 20 minutes I watched a HARD malinois who WOULD NOT out the sleeve under any circumstances unless choked nearly to unconsciousness, voluntarily spit out the sleeve - training method 100% positive, flat collar only.


if you wouldn't mind sharing, what exactly went into fixing this problem?


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

Tanya Beka said:


> ... and you can't have a good relationship with a team mate if he is always looking over his shoulder wondering when the next "stim" will come....



if the training is done correctly, the dog is NOT "looking over his shoulder..."

different dogs require different training methods-simple as that.

i personally would like to train completely motivationally, and will, until circumstances dictate otherwise. but i won't rule out another tool just "because".

JMHO.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: 
... and you can't have a good relationship with a team mate if he is always looking over his shoulder wondering when the next "stim" will come....

She said that ?? Really ?? Nice GUESS. Gott in himmel. ( read that somewhere, have no idea of what it means...kinda like....)


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

ann freier said:


> if the training is done correctly, the dog is NOT "looking over his shoulder..."
> 
> different dogs require different training methods-simple as that.
> 
> ...


 
I think different dogs require different details of training , but not kind. All dogs on general level learn the same. Learning theories (and a theory scientifically is definded as a experienment that consistenly produces the same conclusion without concrete evidence, such as the positive reiforcement as a learning theory...behaviors that are rewarded are likely to occur again, we all can agree with that....a Law is something that in experiment can produce the same conclusion consistenly with concrete evidence...basically we can detect the conclusion with one or more of our five senses. suchs as newton laws of motion, an object in motion stays in motion unitl acted on by another force...a car hitting a telephone pole will stop. Theory is often mistaken for a hypothesis...or a guess on what the conclusion will be) do not change from dog to dog...So, positive reiforcement every dog will learn using that theory, I think we can all agree to that....But some will do it for a ball, some for food...and all will do it with different levels of intensity...but that does not negate the fact that learning is happening. I agree with Tanya that the dog every dog will be adversly affected by punishment, it's unavoidable. Dogs labeled soft, often are the dogs that will flee or give up. Hard dogs are the dogs the keep working but with undesired behaviors....such as the dog that would not out. Which I will touch on later. So I think ruling out, is not just because. A theory about punishment is that they any entitiy will become more concerned with what and/or where the punishment is coming from. It's called competeting motivation. So punishment done enough will eventually cause a dog to worry where and what is causing the punishment. What we hope for is they become concerned about the "why" why are they getting punished? but this does not seem to be always the truth. A dog when I was green, green trainer had recall problems. So, I used an e-collar to get the dog to return...the dog at first was obedient to the correction, concerned about the why...but the cumlative punishment wore on the dog, and he became concerned about the where and what... First he learned that I was causing the punishment so he just refused to leave my side (where), and then he learned that e-collar was (what)..so his response was when I have the e-collar on, I will stay close to dad, thus avoiding correction, then he learned if I have it off a stim cannot come and would be up to his old tricks. 

With my next dog I tried to trick her, I put the collar on her at random times in order to avoid her learning the "what" (e-collar). It did work for sometime. and things were good for a time, But cumlative stims, she became stressed that she could not figure out the "what" or the "where"...this than produced a dog that started to whine during training. Even though she could not pin point either the "what" or the "where" she was still concerned about those 2 things...and became stressed. Another way this ugly problem rearred its head was in protection. During the back transport to keep her from forging I stimed her to get her back...this worked for awhile, but ever so oftern she made a mistake and I stimed here. where (there's that word again) she did get bites she would not let go...even though we were not using the stims for the out. She used biting as a coping mechanism. And she had never recieved a stim while biting...avoiding the "where"and "what"...not the "why". Her motivation to avoid the stim no longer was why..it was just the 'what" and the "where"....the competeting motivation.

One thing to point out is the cumlative effect of punishment. Often it works for a time with no ill effect...but then we start to see odd things happen....like my dog with the out. Than we get the age old line, "he has never done that before"...another example is a dog doing the jump a person I was watching for weeks was trying to get thier dog to stop chewing on the dumbell, the owner assumed the dog knew the "hold" command and the dog would comply at times but when he did not the owner punished the dog with a knock on the head...I know not smart by any means. This worked for a time...dog concerned about the "why" but the dog soon started to worry about the "what" and the "where" from cumlative punishment and would go get the dumb bell but refused to return Thus dog learned to avoid the correction by not got going "where" "what" was causing the correction....and out came..."he has never done that before". So dogs have three options of avoidance..."Why" which often see first, and this out intent, then dogs making mistakes from time to time...they get corrected again. They then figure avoiding the "why" is not the most effective method in avoidance. so, they up the anty and start to remove "what" and the "where". Which on the dogs end prove to be more effective...so what does a trainer to dog...well most adminster more punishment...starting the whole process over again with other behaviors. You can see what a mess this can make.

In order for punishment or negative reiforcement to be effective it has cause a stimulation enough to change the behavior...even at the lowest levels possible the dog through cumlation of punishment will eventually become concerned with the "what" and Where". Because another theory in learning is Extinction...any behavior that does not produce the desired result will go extinct. In this case, and all cases they "why" being the behavior that the dog sees as being ineffective. 

Now if the dog does figure out "what" and When" the stim is coming They can equate you, the trainer as the "what" now you are the competeing motivation. So now they are worried about you...even though they may not physically turn thier head a look at you. It does not mean they are not concerned about the perosn behind them. And this can be just as true with the pinch. With many dogs, especially in protection work this is true. Now the dog is telling us everything we need to know. In protection if the dog takes a correction without even flinche without a change in the behavior, the correction is insufficent to compete with the desire for engagment with the sleeve or fight with the helper (whatever the dog likes more) does not really matter which one. Or we may see the dog take the correction without a flinche and a change i the behavior....we will eventually be seeing other problems arise. But the fact the dog does not flinche seems to be what handlers focus on, and a lot of the time are very proud of. but thier missing the point. The Motivation for the sleeve or the fight is so strong that this is the dog telling us what we should be using as collateral for good or bad behavior. 

Do what I ask, and you'll get what you want. And if you do not behave...we start over, no bite, no fight...nothing till you do right. and if we continue to have problems, maybe we need to break the exercise down a bit more into bits a dog can understand. But for a dog that motivated by a sleeve or fight, there is no greater punishment than denying them the bite. 

I have attended a ton of seminars with a lot of great trainers....one major theme I have found, and a friend pointed this out to me...is that they have a small amount of time to impress you and change how your dog behaves. Correction often is the tool that does this for them. If they do not change the way a dog behaves within the evening or weekend. people will think they are full of it. they wil lose crediability.

Using a positive reiforcement based approach takes a lot more time up front...but wil spare you the headache of chasing the problems that arise from using corrections to change a dogs behavior.

Back to the HARD Malinois who was taught to out in 20 minutes without using an e-collar or pinch...I have a hypothesis...and it's simple a dog that will not out unless choked. Simply does not know what out means. The simple fact it only took 20 minutes to teach tells me that. Now the dog may have outed in other circumstances...less desired toy, handler holding the toy, enviorment. But I have sneaking suspicion that the dog never really generalized the out. The dog did preform elsewhere, giving the handler the impression that the dog new the command. And the handler did what many of us of are guilty of...giving the dog to much credit, calling for an out, expecting an out, instead of continuing to train. Thus lableing the dog as HARD. Out problems are not temperment issues, it's an Obedience exercise, a handler issue. The other thing is the dog may have had a good out, but made mistakes (more likely the handler did, like an ill timed command) either way the dog got corrected for it, over cumlation of correctionn the dog abandon outing because of the corrections....And thus the cycle started again.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Tanya , 
I'm with Kristin and am very interested in how you got the hard Mal to out in 20 mns . I don't think it's impossible we've had successes in less time without having to resort to corrections or compulsion also , just looking for new ideas . 

I also have a question for both Tanya and James . How would you go about teaching an adult dog an out that doesn't release anything it gets into it's mouth(toys , jute sticks , pvc pipes , sticks , whatever)? 

I'm all for positive motivational training . Like I've said before , I've found that training as positive(motivational) as possible turns out a better dog . We get younger and younger Police Dog candidates all the time ( usually around 12 months old) and the need for more positive training is even more important nowadays.

But through my experiance training lots of PSD's , there comes a time with many where the dog may have a stronger desire(motivation) when we progress in training to do what it wants to do(self reward) no matter how well the dog was taught the command and motivated it seemed to be to obey that command in earlier training . This continues after stepping back in training or trying to find different motivational routes . 

I would rather train a dog purely or in an almost entirely positive form of training but I along with the numerous trainers with years of experiance haven't been able to figure it out . So far I've had some people criticize me for not being able to do it but when I ask them their backround in training none have real life experiance or successes in my field of dog training or with the type of dogs I deal with . Most have been pet trainers or obediance , agility type trainers . I always challenge them to get some successes in a Schtz. or Ring club using their training methods then come back to me . This is one subject I would LOVE to be proven wrong in . So far it's just all been talk though .


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jim, I've taken my dog to a Schutzhund III and a CDX with no corrections. I DO believe that most sport dogs and many "real world" dogs can do it. 
I'm now working this dog in herding and also working towards his UD title. Still no physical corrections and he's not a sissy dog. 
My younger dog is different. TONS of drive for a bite. His obedience for a bite is beautiful to watch BUT his drive for a toy or food is inconsistant.
The theory is that I need to be more important then the distraction. Agreed, but that's not always possible. 
The right dog CAN do it. 
All this being said, what you do doesn't allow for the time AND the possibility of noncompliance from the dog. 
The method I've seen to "out" a dog that wouldn't out was to simply wait him out and let him realize the out will get him another bite. Often times the out means 'game over' to a dog. Teach him the game continues when he outs clean. It can work!
I will add, and this is JMO, a dog trained with heavy compulsion can be retrained with motivationl methods BUT under stres could easily slip back to it's foundation training. Again, JMO!


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Tanya Beka said:


> In a span of about 20 minutes I watched a HARD malinois who WOULD NOT out the sleeve under any circumstances unless choked nearly to unconsciousness, voluntarily spit out the sleeve - training method 100% positive, flat collar only.


Please tell us, in detail what you did to achieve this out. 

Not really interested in the Ecollar debate for some reason tonight, especially with people who have already demonstrated that they don't know much about it.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Julie Ann Alvarez said:


> Using an e-collar to stem (*NOT SHOCK*) can be a godsend. Do you consider the vibrate page functiona a SHOCK? Have you ever tried one on yourself?


Do you mean "stim?" Is this a misspelling or did you learn to (mis)use this word on another forum? LOL


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Jim, I've taken my dog to a Schutzhund III and a CDX with no corrections. I DO believe that most sport dogs and many "real world" dogs can do it.


Can you direct us to any police dogs that have been trained entirely with "no corrections?" I've been looking for such a dog for decades now and no one has ever been able to direct me to one.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Bob ,

I believe the right dog can do it and I've read about your successes before and believe it . The problem I have is with the folks that insinuate most or all dogs can be trained to a high level that way in Schtz. or PSD training . I will admit my knowledge of Schtz . is limited . But with that same belief they have in PSD training (using dogs around 12mths old on up with limited knowledge of their backround and type of realworld training we do) I don't think it can be done on a consistant basis and haven't spoken with anyone yet who has done it with multiple dogs consistantly in Schtz. or PSD training. I think the chances of succes may increase some if you are lucky enough to train a dog from a puppy (we don't have that luxury) and that dog upon reaching maturity ends up having what it takes to truely do the job but still I'm sceptical that the success rate will be that high and like on another subject until I start seeing such succeses on a regular basis I'll remain that way . 

Again I'm not crapping on correction free positive training . I feel the more you can teach a dog that way the better performance you can get . It's just been my experiance there aren't as many dogs that they believe , that can be taken that far using it . There almost always seems to be a time corrections are needed in training (at least in PSD training ). 

Bob stated;

" The method I've seen to "out" a dog that wouldn't out was to simply wait him out and let him realize the out will get him another bite. Often times the out means 'game over' to a dog. Teach him the game continues when he outs clean. It can work! " 

I've used that technique in various forms and it's a good one . On a very stubburn dog we used a form of this while the dog was on the sleeve . I then used a large slanted portion of a tree to climb up to get the dog's feet off the ground . He hung there for 30-40 minutes tell he tired out and as he was coming off was given the out command and was then sent on another decoy who did the same thing . 20 minutes later he we ended it the same way with just praise (due to his exhaustion we had to end it that way) . Next day we did it again and his first time on the sleeve was even longer , 2nd much shorter . You can see the usual way of using this technique didn't work with him . Not enough time in the day to wait that long . The way we did it didn't total solve our out problem but it did seem to plant the seed of what "out" meant . I wouldn't consider that incident purely positive though based on the dog's stress for the sleeve and the amount of physical exertion the dog put into possesing that sleeve . On simpler problems using tugs and what not that technique has been good but once again not for a good number of our dogs . 

I'm still hoping the others I asked this question to have something new I could try .


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

Lou Castle said:


> Do you mean "stim?" Is this a misspelling or did you learn to (mis)use this word on another forum? LOL



It is misspelled, I rarely re-read my post or check spelling.


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## Tanya Beka (Aug 12, 2008)

For those that think a PSD can't be trained with postive methods, contact anyone from the Phoenix AZ PD K9 Department. They use mainly positive methods and have a great team of dogs. Ask them about thier training methods...I'm sure they need to correct occasionally, but it isn't the focus of their program. Not in the least!

Is there anyone from Phoenix K9 here?

--------------------------------------------------------

The hard malinois that I watched learn how to out a sleeve was incredible!

This is called the "Dial Drill". Not my invention, just something I love that I learned from some incredible K9 Trainers.


There were 4 sleeves on the ground in a circle. One handler holding the dog, one decoy working the sleeves.

Decoy wears a sleeve, agitates the dog. Dog takes the bite, gets a good fight. Decoy slips the sleeve. Handler runs the dog carrying the sleeve in a large circle away from the decoy while the decoy runs to the next sleeve and gets ready for another bite and fight.

Handler runs the dog (runs, not walks) right up to the new decoy who presents the sleeve, but does not agitate the dog. If the dog does not drop the sleeve (usually they don't at this point) the handler runs the dog in another large circle right up to the still and waiting decoy again. Repeat, repeat, repeat. Don't let the dog lay dowen with the sleeve and guard it, don't let him chew on it, just keep running him in circles and re-presenting him to the decoy. Handler is silent. Decoy is silent. No commands, no corrections, no words. Just movement.

EVENTUALLY...sometimes with 2-3 minutes, sometimes 20 minutes...the dog gets bored with the sleeve it has, drops it and engages the decoy. Immediately the decoy springs into action and vocalizes and gives a good fight (what the dog has been waiting for). After a short fight, he slips the sleeve again and you repeat the circles and presentation of the next sleeve.

Very quickly the dog learns that the only fun part comes when you drop the sleeve and engage the decoy with the new sleeve. Eventually all dogs will get bored with prancing around with the sleeve and want a new fight...this is the key. show them what they want, but they can't have it until they can spit out the first sleeve.

After the dog figures out that he can spit the sleeve and get a new fight, he starts to do it on his own. Once he does it reliably on his own for 3 or 4 times, you add the command "Out" right as the dog is spitting out the sleeve.

Repeat 3 or 4 more times. Then eventually you command "Out" right before you know he will spit the sleeve. Voila, he does!

Then you can command "Out" and the dog spits the sleeve. The key is to give him a good fight as a reward for spitting the sleeve. Then add the word after he can do the action. 

After the dog gets the idea, you just practice the scenario until he gets it down good and will spit the leeve anytime you ask.

Bingo! You have a dog that spits the sleeve so fast and looks for another fight willingly with no compulsion.

I need to go through some old cd's of photos. I have pictures for the non-believers.

This mal had 4...yes...4 sleeves in his mouth at one time before he figured it out. But once he got it, he spat those sleeves out just as fast as he grabbed them in the first place. Such an amazing dog!

I should be able to find the pictures somewhere around here and post them today or tomorrow.


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## Tanya Beka (Aug 12, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Jim, I've taken my dog to a Schutzhund III and a CDX with no corrections. I DO believe that most sport dogs and many "real world" dogs can do it.
> I'm now working this dog in herding and also working towards his UD title. Still no physical corrections and he's not a sissy dog.
> My younger dog is different. TONS of drive for a bite. His obedience for a bite is beautiful to watch BUT his drive for a toy or food is inconsistant.
> The theory is that I need to be more important then the distraction. Agreed, but that's not always possible.
> ...


Thank you Bob, for easily explaining the thoughts I am trying to convey. You give me hope!


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Tanya , 

The focus of our PSD training is not corrections . Like I've said a few times already we train trying to train the dogs as far as we can using positive / motivational methods with using as little corrections to no corrections as possible . BUT there usually seems to be a time where all possible correctionless obtions have been exhausted with a certain training issue where corrections become neccessary to solve it . This doesn't mean we jump to correcting the dog for everything just on those issues that need it . 

I've used and taught the circle drill to our new PSD classes and at a Bob Eden seminar I helped instruct at . He likes that drill and I do too but that also has it's limitations with some dogs . I think there are pictures of Bob's training with the Pheonix PD . some years ago . I know he has photos of the circle drill (his website is " Police Dog Homepage " ). I believe he helped with some issues they were having in their unit . Sounded like they use corrections on par with how we use them and more then you think . I could be wrong though it's been a few years .


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Just went to his website . It was back in 2003 . They were there to help " re-develope " their program . In the photos I see some of the dogs wearing prongs . Tanya I will point out again I'm not a non-believer I just think you can't train most PSD's using entirely no corrections or very few corrections for that matter . It should be the goal to shot for but in my experiance it's not as reachable a goal as you or others believe . Can it be done with some dogs , I think so but not very often . 

I believe in positive / motivational training , I also prefer using corrections as little as possible in training but I use that technique also . As a matter of fact it states something to that effect in our head trainers Bio on the Police Dog Homepage . Look under Mark Ficcadenti in the Consultants section .


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

I've posted this before but here is some video from Bob Eden's seminar when we hosted him in Da'Burgh a few years ago. The dial drill is the first video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGQQjQqrGzs 

I'm getting ready to start a patrol/narcotics dog next month for a neighboring department. The deartment picked him up about a month ago. I've been working with him two days a week untill we go full time. Everything is being taught with PP and markers. That said... once he totally understands "sit" however, he's gonna get corrected for not doing it.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: This mal had 4...yes...4 sleeves in his mouth at one time before he figured it out. But once he got it, he spat those sleeves out just as fast as he grabbed them in the first place. Such an amazing dog!

Got a picture of that ??

I have a question for Bob. How many times have your dogs been corrected at the house ??

For me, with most of the training currently out there, the emphasis is on the quality of the bite. I think that we over balance the dog to the bitework more often than not, and that is some of the problem.

For example, I trained Buko without corrections for a long time. I had an amazing whistle recall, and he was good about coming back to me.

I went to trial for his one and the whole shebang collapsed. I was on 15 minutes of sleep, and definately not handler of the year that day, but it started at the hurdle. He did not jump, and was giving **** you eyes to the judge for some reason. Then he decided that he did not want to heel to the next exercise, and luckily the judge had his back to me, and I was able to step on his foot, and klonk his head with my knuckles. This BARELY worked. 

We went to the flee attack, and he held himself, but the rest was a disaster.

There is a thought kicking around in my head that compulsion free training is going to make an average dog look stronger than he really is, because there was no compulsion. I have seen a few dogs that this COULD be what I am looking at. I do not know for sure, and may never. However, the same can be said for using compulsion, like leaving the pinch on during aggtation, or table training. 

Everyone was wondering why I would trial a dog that didn't know the whistle recall. Luckily, my decoy was there, and he was as shocked as I was. If the dog was blowing me off in the recall, a third of my points, I would not have trialed.

This was the point that I recognized my mistake. However, if anyone thinks that I enjoy correcting my dog they are sadly mistaken. He learns VERY fast, and I am paying for not correcting him. He has more time training without punishment, than with and knows what is up. Somehow I put a timer in his head with the defense of handler as well.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> This will stir up the pot but I believe the dog and handler have a better bond with less compulsion. I also believe it's also harder to do it correctly AND to do it correctly calls for the correct dog, which most sport and working dogs fit the bill.
> It should be a team! Definately with a team leader but not just a master slave relationship.
> To many view their dog as an object to achieve a goal.
> When it IS used, a "correction" doesn't have to cause pain! All JMHO of course! :grin: :grin: :wink:


Yep, stirred the pot alright! Bob: I really want to know what makes you think your bond with your dog is any better than another handler's. How did you determine this? 

As far as "master slave relationship": First off.......WTF?!?!??!
"master" defined: one who has control over another
"slave" defined: one who is owned by another

So yes, this is the relationship between handler and dog, except of course to the PETA & HSUS freaks who want to be "guardians" and let all the animals run free. As far as "team" yep, we are a team allright, but I am the team leader, I make the decisions. 

I understand there is more than one way to skin a cat, there are many tools in my tool box. These are dogs, not humans. I teach the way they understand, not the way I understand, and it works for me. I do not discount what you are doing, it works for you and your dog and that is what matters. But when "positive only" trainers start talking about "master/slave relationship" and "better bond" I really have to draw the line and call you on what I see to be complete bullshit.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Jim Nash said:


> I believe the right dog can do it and I've read about your successes before and believe it . The problem I have is with the folks that insinuate most or all dogs can be trained to a high level that way in Schtz. or PSD training .


I will agree that many dogs can be worked this way. But I also know that many can't. I know that the topic of this thread is "SchH training Methods" but as usual it has branched out to include police K-9's and so my comments in this response and any that follow will only address that. 

I've discussed before that I think that there's a significant difference between training a dog for sport and one for police work. In sport one is only concerned with what the dog is physically doing. But in LE we're concerned with what he's thinking as well. This is due to the fact that crooks will do anything that they can to the dog in order to make their escape. This means that the dog must be in the "right frame of mind" in order to handle it. If he's trained that what he's doing is a game, and is in play drive, thinking he's going to have fun, when he gets hurt for real, he won't be ready for it and may decide that it's better to be somewhere else. 

There's a difference between being hit with a stick in a proscribed fashion and position on the body after having taken thousands of hits during training and getting a 2 X 4 upside the head from someone who truly wants to kill you. 




Jim Nash said:


> Again I'm not crapping on *correction free *positive training . [Emphasis added]


I don't think such training exists unless one changes the definition of "correction." It means to add punishment to the mix. Punishment in this sense means something that will tend to make a behavior not repeat. 



Jim Nash said:


> Bob stated;
> 
> " The method I've seen to "out" a dog that wouldn't out was to simply wait him out and let him realize the out will get him another bite. Often times the out means 'game over' to a dog. Teach him the game continues when he outs clean. It can work! "
> 
> I've used that technique in various forms and it's a good one .


I'm not a fan of it. I don't want a PSD to get it into his head that biting, by itself, is ever uncomfortable. I want it to always be a pleasurable experience.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Julie Ann Alvarez said:


> It is misspelled, I rarely re-read my post or check spelling.


Thanks Julie. It wasn't a dig, but a question I've posed elsewhere and instead of an answer, got personally attacked.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Tanya Beka said:


> For those that think a PSD can't be trained with postive methods


I'll ask you to CAREFULLY read the responses to your posts. So far NO ONE has said that it can't be done. What HAS been said is that it's a rare dog that can do it and that those methods can't be used alone. 



Tanya Beka said:


> contact anyone from the Phoenix AZ PD K9 Department. They use *mainly *positive methods and have a great team of dogs. Ask them about thier training methods...I'm sure they need to correct occasionally, but it isn't the focus of their program. Not in the least! [Emphasis added]


Based on the highlighted word in your message, it would seem that you agree with the last part of my sentence above. 



Tanya Beka said:


> The hard malinois that I watched learn how to out a sleeve was incredible!
> 
> This is called the "Dial Drill". Not my invention, just something I love that I learned from some incredible K9 Trainers.
> 
> ...


SchH trainers have been doing this for decades. Nothing new here. I’m not a fan of this for PSD's. Slipping the sleeve as a reward or to stop the combat teaches the dog to "be happy" with having taken a piece of clothing from the crook. I've seen many dogs trained with this method strip a jacket off a suspect and run back to the handler leaving the suspect to continue his flight. 



Tanya Beka said:


> Handler runs the dog carrying the sleeve in a large circle *away from the decoy * while the decoy runs to the next sleeve and gets ready for another bite and fight. [Emphasis added]


Yep, that's the pattern. The dog runs in a big circle "AWAY FROM THE [CROOK]" carrying the jacket just as he did with the sleeve, while the crook makes good his escape. 



Tanya Beka said:


> Handler runs the dog (runs, not walks) right up to the new decoy who presents the sleeve, but does not agitate the dog. If the dog does not drop the sleeve (usually they don't at this point) the handler runs the dog in another large circle right up to the still and waiting decoy again. Repeat, repeat, repeat.


Exactly. Make the dog think that he'll always get another bite. The problem is that it develops a habit that now must be broken. You have to teach something else after you get the out this way. I call this building a mountain and then climbing over it. It can also make it dangerous for any other officers in the area since the dog thinks that as soon as he releases a bite he's going to get another. And STILL the dog thinks that it's a game. But in real life, while the K-9 is running the circle, the crook disappears around a corner or over a wall. 
I use a method that keeps the dog in a combat drive the entire game. This methods teaches the dog a horrible habit that then must be trained away. My method uses an Ecollar at the level that the dog first feels the stim. As I said in another thread, it's just a matter of changing the thinking from one of "I'm being stopped from doing something I want to do" to "This is just part of what I want to do."


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## Tanya Beka (Aug 12, 2008)

Okay, let's get back to the original topic...Schutzhund Training Methods. 

I agree that PSD's need corrections and that isn't really the point. I wanted to point out that if some PSD's can use positive motivational methods without a lot of correction, why can't sport dogs? I know that PSD's live a whole other life and you can't just rely on postive methods to make a great street dog - lives are on the line. I get that.

Sport dogs don't have a life on the line...sport dogs are doing it for, well, sport.

So on that note, What I really wnted to know was why so many Sch clubs rely on corrections...but now I am getting a better balance of answers...the first few posters basically thought I was nuts, but now I see that there are people who train in positive methods for as much as is possible. That's really all I wanted to know. 

For Sch trainers who use mainly e-collars and pinch collars...why? Have you tried other methods and didn't like them? Is this just how you were trained in Sch or another sport and so that's what you use?

I am puzzled as to why nobody questions the use of entirely compulsive training methods on dogs in sport training. Perhaps because that's the way it has been for so long that nobody thinks to question it.

I want to question it. I want to forge a new path. I want to follow along with those who have already started the new path using primarily motivational methods.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> ... There is a thought kicking around in my head that compulsion free training is going to make an average dog look stronger than he really is, because there was no compulsion. I have seen a few dogs that this COULD be what I am looking at. ....



This is interesting. When you say that you've seen a few dogs that this could be what you're seeing, what is it that you're seeing? Misplaced (or over-) confidence?


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

JEEZ for the last time IT'S NOT A "NEW PATH"!!!! It seems you have made a judgement about this sport based on your one visit to one club - wow. But you are so wrong. In fact, I can't think of one successful schutzhund trainer who DOESN'T use motivational as well as compulsion to train. No one who is successful trains 100% Koehler methods (for example) exclusively. MOST trainers aren't 100% ANYTHING. They train what works - PERIOD.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Quote Jeff: This was the point that I recognized my mistake. However, if anyone thinks that I enjoy correcting my dog they are sadly mistaken. He learns VERY fast, and I am paying for not correcting him. He has more time training without punishment, than with and knows what is up. Somehow I put a timer in his head with the defense of handler as well."

I'm paying for this, too. I love this big, beefy dog of mine but am sure at one point to trial him to higher regions, I'm going to have to change my methods.

His recall is now perfect, only with motivation. I spent ages recalling him from short distances and he shot in diagonally. He now shoots in like a freight train from 40, 50 metres but stops dead in front of me, because at 15 metres away I cry "sit".

He tackles the schutzdienst with busting enthusiasm and not little aggression and is difficult to handle in the control, i.e. he prefers to keep the helper in eye and not me in transport but we will overcome this](*,) 

I have heard from a participant at the FMBB (well known to me and reliable) that one handler had to hold his dog very close to the collar to avoid his being bitten. I condone the prong, e-collar and whatever is necessary but none of these devices can replace a healthy relationship between dog and handler, i.e. the handler shows the way and the dog follows.


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

> For Sch trainers who use mainly e-collars and pinch collars...why? Have you tried other methods and didn't like them? Is this just how you were trained in Sch or another sport and so that's what you use?
> 
> I am puzzled as to why nobody questions the use of entirely compulsive training methods on dogs in sport training. Perhaps because that's the way it has been for so long that nobody thinks to question it.


Your post shows your ingnorance. I say the club that you watched is lucky that you didn't join. You could be quite the trouble maker. People who question before that have knowledge are hard to work with. If you were at my club and spoke with authority like you do here and were the obvious newb you would never make membership.

Tanya just because some one uses a pinch or and e collar does not mean that they are training entirely compulsive. That is ridicules and shows your lack of understanding.

Most people I know use very little compulsion. Almost everything is positive in the learning phase and even into the proofing phase (dog complies and gets a reward, dog does not and gets a punishment). 


These are very strong willed dogs and when you get to the point in your training that you are proofing or polishing many need to ensure that the dog is not allowed to blow off the handler for what ever reason (doesn't matter). 

The dog can not choose not to obey or not to work, and being prepared to enforce the command is important in being successful.

You use a variety of corrections and rewards. Nothing is set in stone. And once in awhile I might need to use a little well placed force.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Compulsion:

Mrs Brown goes with Fifi for a walk and decides to stop at a wayside cafe to have an ice cream. Fifi doesn't check this and pulls Mrs B ahead. Mrs B, stands forcibly on her two very strong legs and pulls Fifi back so that she can enter the cafe. Fifi is "forced" to stop in her tracks. 
Compulsion?? Oh no!! Just a conflict of wills :lol: :lol: :lol: 

Compulsion is what one doesn't want to do but has to.........It's not nasty, just compulsive:evil:


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Tanya stated:

" I am puzzled as to why nobody questions the use of entirely compulsive training methods on dogs in sport training. Perhaps because that's the way it has been for so long that nobody thinks to question it. "

I would question entirely compulsive training . I've never seen anyone train a K9 entirely compulsive(sport or PSD) and would think the success rate in getting a dog to perform well at a high level would be incredibly low . 

Honestly , It sounds to me like you made some big assumptions when you saw some of that clubs training based on seeing prongs and e-collars . I wasn't there but I have never seen or heard of anyone ever wanting to train a dog entirely compulsive . I have seen groups that train with a different mixture of motivation , positive training , corrections , compulsion , etc. with some leaning more one way then the other . But entirely compulsive seems like a huge exaggeration .


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## Tanya Beka (Aug 12, 2008)

Wow, I have never been on a board before where I have been so bashed for using certain words and for asking questions and trying to learn. There are a few helpful people here and then a bunch of people who like to shove their superiority down the newbie's throats. Oh so much fun. Thank you. I love being called ignorant when I'm just trying to learn.

Okay, here is what I saw in the OB portion of the Sch training. Working with a dog in heel and left and right turns - in a span of about 3-4 minutes I heard the dog yelp from being corrected about 10 times doing the same exercise over and over again. In my ignortant and exaggerative opinion, if the dog is being repeatedly corrected for the same thing (position on an about turn in heel) then why keep doing it? I think the dog eventually got it, but at what cost? Me as a newbie trouble maker would have backed up my training and tried to figure out what I was doing that wasn't giving the dog success after 10 failed attempts. Maybe the dog doesn't understand? Maybe we need to break it down and build up a good reason for the dog to WANT to do it without disobeying every time.

But that's just me, the ignorant trouble maker. What do I know.

I watched the OB for about 30 minutes. I heard yelps at least once per minute. Sometimes several times in a row from the same dog. Yes, I know, I've already been told by someone here that the yelp doesn't mean it hurts, the dog is just being vocal...but I don't honestly understand the purpose.

I know I am just a pet dog trainer, but I rarely use physical correction in class (maybe 6 times in 2 years). If the dog deliberately disobeys, we figure out why and find a way to get the dog to think he is making the right decision on his own. We slow it down, find our patience and re-work it. And yes, these are just household pets who are nothing like working dogs, but in my ignorant opinion, it can work for other dogs as well, including the "high drive" working dogs who participate in sport.

But what do I know? Nothing apparently. Thanks for teaching me that.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Compulsion is a form of dominance. Dogs will be #2 then, and not a buddy. You are more outgoing with your best friend, than say, your Dad.

Where are these pics of the dog with 4 sleeves in his mouth, and I still think you are nuts. I don't think you trained a dog with 4 sleeves to do shit. Sure he did it then, that doesn't mean it is trained. I have worked all kinds of positive shit to clean something up, and the dog looks great.......till he goes to trail, or works on someone else.

Not my first time at this dance. I ain't getting the ugly bitch again.


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## Tanya Beka (Aug 12, 2008)

If you read carefully, you will notice that I never said I trained the dog...I WATCHED the dog be trained. I can only find a pic of the dog with 1, then 2 sleeves...still can't find the rest of the pics. I will upload what I can find for you.

I only said that I found it amazing that the dog was able to LEARN how to spit a sleeve with only positive methods when compulsion and choking the sh!t out of him didn't work. I don't know where the dog is now...maybe he reverted, but I hope not. My point was that he LEARNED it and nobody had to force him to, he chose to do it himself. Doesn't that make you wonder what else dogs can do without force and compulsion?

No, of course not. You only care about winning at trial, not the working relationship you have with your dogs.


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## Tanya Beka (Aug 12, 2008)

One Sleeve



Two sleeves



This just shows how much the dog didn't want to out...he just kept collecting them...wish I could find the pics of him with more...sorry. You don't have to believe me. I know what I saw.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: I know I am just a pet dog trainer, but I rarely use physical correction in class (maybe 6 times in 2 years). If the dog deliberately disobeys, we figure out why and find a way to get the dog to think he is making the right decision on his own. We slow it down, find our patience and re-work it. And yes, these are just household pets who are nothing like working dogs, but in my ignorant opinion, it can work for other dogs as well, including the "high drive" working dogs who participate in sport.

What do you teach in these classes??? Not being a dick this time. LOL I am not defending the person making their dog yelp either, I have sen people that use corrections for the same thing over and over and over. Not everyone that is in dog sports really "gets it".

Most of what I have read about the people posting on this thread, and some I have read hundreds of posts over about 5 years here and on other forums, so you have the attention of people that are not cranking on the dogs neck for no reason.

I have a strong dog. I always try and put a really strong foundation of correct behaviour on my dogs before I even consider compulsion. I have been told I wait to long before starting to use compulsion. Buko and Soda PoP both have this annoying habit of understanding the situation, and appearing to have an understanding LONG before they know the command. Most of the dogs I have trained (not Mals) start to pick up the situation and pattern right before they have figured out the command. These two I could just talk about the weather and they will do things for you on the training field. : )

This part in particular bugged me. QUOTE : If the dog deliberately disobeys, we figure out why and find a way to get the dog to think he is making the right decision on his own.

We sure do try this, but the whole thing is ass backwards in a lot of ways. I do not have anything I can reward with as cool as the decoy. If I use him for OB for bites, the dog resets in his brain the clock that makes him hold himself. Pain in the ass, and frustrating.

I think that if you just go out and try your theory with a dog, it won't take long before you start seeing the snags in it.


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

Tanya Beka said:


> One Sleeve
> 
> 
> 
> ...


When and where did you see this??


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Matthew Grubb said:


> When and where did you see this??



It does look strikingly similar to minute 3:00 of the video that Matt posted. Just from a different vantage point.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Tanya Beka said:


> Wow, I have never been on a board before where I have been so bashed for using certain words and for asking questions and trying to learn. There are a few helpful people here and then a bunch of people who like to shove their superiority down the newbie's throats. Oh so much fun. Thank you. I love being called ignorant when I'm just trying to learn.
> 
> Okay, here is what I saw in the OB portion of the Sch training. Working with a dog in heel and left and right turns - in a span of about 3-4 minutes I heard the dog yelp from being corrected about 10 times doing the same exercise over and over again. In my ignortant and exaggerative opinion, if the dog is being repeatedly corrected for the same thing (position on an about turn in heel) then why keep doing it? I think the dog eventually got it, but at what cost? Me as a newbie trouble maker would have backed up my training and tried to figure out what I was doing that wasn't giving the dog success after 10 failed attempts. Maybe the dog doesn't understand? Maybe we need to break it down and build up a good reason for the dog to WANT to do it without disobeying every time.
> 
> ...


It sounds like your referancing one day at A Schutzhund club how many clubs have you visited how many hours of training have you watched you mentioned schutzhund as a sport are you aware that it is required as a breed test for several breeds of working dog. With proper understanding of working dogs you can add schutzhund into the evaluation of how breed worthy the animal is. 
If you gave a little more info about how you have come to your conclusions people prolly wouldent make asumptions about how mutch you actualy know and understand about Schutzhund.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Lou Castle said:


> Can you direct us to any police dogs that have been trained entirely with "no corrections?" I've been looking for such a dog for decades now and no one has ever been able to direct me to one.


 
No, but I will tell you or one thing....you maybe on to something, because I have worked an uncountable of number of actively working LE dog (both police and military)...and I can count on one had the dogs that were worth anything and half of them had eaten up a few handlers, the rest you could work on an old sweatshirt and walk away unharmed...So I am not impressed with the "real" working dog training.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Bashed you????? No one has bashed you. We have called bullshit for your baseless and ignorant (your word) opinon about schutzhund in general, but we have not bashed you.

You have no clue what the history was of the dog in question, what led up to what was going on, you have no clue what the handler has tried with the dog, you THINK it was all about turns (but you didn't bother to ask), you saw the dog ONCE FOR A FEW MINUTES, but you want to not only criticize this particular trainer, you also think you know what should have been done with the dog. Not only that, you have now at least twice in this thread said that people who train schutzhund use too much compulsion - and you base this on your ONE visit to ONE club. How the hell would YOU know?


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Tanya Beka said:


> My point was that he LEARNED it and nobody had to force him to, he chose to do it himself. Doesn't that make you wonder what else dogs can do without force and compulsion?
> 
> No, of course not. You only care about winning at trial, not the working relationship you have with your dogs.


Nobody wins a SchH trial without having a good working relationship with their dog.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Earlier I wrote,


> Can you direct us to any police dogs that have been trained entirely with "no corrections?" I've been looking for such a dog for decades now and no one has ever been able to direct me to one.





James Downey said:


> No, but I will tell you or one thing....you maybe on to something, because I have worked an uncountable of number of actively working LE dog (both police and military)...and I can count on one had the dogs that were worth anything


James I'm willing to bet the farm that you've never seen or worked any dogs that I've trained. 



James Downey said:


> and half of them had eaten up a few handlers


I've been training police dogs four about 30 years now and I've never had a handler bitten by his dog. 



James Downey said:


> the rest you could work on an old sweatshirt and walk away unharmed...


If you tried this stupidity with any dogs that I've trained you'd be spending lots of time at the ER. 



James Downey said:


> So I am not impressed with the "real" working dog training.


James all you do with comments like this is show your ignorance and further the division between sport and police dog trainers. I'm sorry that you've not seen any quality police dogs but that's just an indication of your lack of experience.


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## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

> I've been training police dogs four about 30 years now and I've never had a handler bitten by his dog.


Four is a number. Kinda like 30. Or did you mean you trained 4 dogs?


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

James Downey said:


> No, but I will tell you or one thing....you maybe on to something, because I have worked an uncountable of number of actively working LE dog (both police and military)...and I can count on one had the dogs that were worth anything and half of them had eaten up a few handlers, the rest you could work on an old sweatshirt and walk away unharmed...So I am not impressed with the "real" working dog training.


Wow, really? You must have arms of steel. Because even though I cannot say I have seen an "uncountable number" of law enforcement and military K9s I can say for sure the ones I know willl most definetly leave a mark (to say the least).


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Lou Castle said:


> Earlier I wrote,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
And your comments seem to bring us together??? 

And Susan...If I get in altercation with any K-9 unit...and they say, stop or I will send the dog...I would take my chances and keep running. That's how good I think my odds the dog will bite like shit.


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## Tanya Beka (Aug 12, 2008)

Matthew Grubb said:


> When and where did you see this??


probably the same place you saw it at. I didn't watch the video you posted, so it may well be the same dog. Sorry.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Earlier I wrote,


> I've been training police dogs *four *about 30 years now and I've never had a handler bitten by his dog. [Emphasis added]





Steve Strom said:


> Four is a number. Kinda like 30. Or did you mean you trained 4 dogs?


That's right Steve in 30 years I only trained four dogs. ROFLMAO. But thanks for the English lesson. I looked at some of your recent posts and here's what I found. 

I've added the emphasis in the posts that follow. 

In another thread you wrote this.


> Got a weird mental image of Jeff looking like a Turnipseed Airdale with Maggie's whiskers *imbeded * in his face.


Did you mean "imbedded" or "embedded?"

In another thread you wrote this,


> I don't know about this plan, but from the people I know that have *Pet Insurance * you have to be very careful to dot every i the exact way they want it or they will deny payment. That seems to be what they are very good at too, finding reasons to deny payment.


Unless the term "pet insurance" is the name of a company, it should not be capitalized. 

In another thread you wrote this,


> Hey Alex, hotdogs *werent *the best choice when I started Andy. The light color makes them stand out in the grass and he started looking for them instead of tracking. Could have at least partially been because of the way I use them in ob too. It worked a lot better with something darker like the natural balance rolls or the little zuke treats.


The word "weren't" is a contraction of the words "were not." There should be an apostrophe between the "n" and the "t". 

In another thread you wrote this,


> I see a holistic vet who not only supports raw but advocates for it. She also practices nutrition and *accupuncture, *Chinese herbs. A lot of different things. But even knowing the raw diet my Rott was on she recommended waiting till my Shepherd was 6mos before switching him to raw. She gave me a lot of reasons why, I don't remember them all, but some of them were answered here *allready. *


The word "acupuncture" only has one "c." And the second emboldened word is spelled "already." 

I only looked at four of your prior posts and found five errors of spelling and grammar. If you're going to correct someone's posts, perhaps you might start with your own. 

Usually it's considered rude to correct someone's English. But since you saw fit … I thought I'd return the favor. 

Do you have anything to add to the topic under discussion, or did you just pop in to show your stupidity?


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

James Downey said:


> And your comments seem to bring us together???


When you make moronic comments, as you did, do you really expect me to join hands with you and sing Kumbaya? 



James Downey said:


> And Susan...If I get in altercation with any K-9 unit...and they say, stop or I will send the dog...I would take my chances and keep running. That's how good I think my odds the dog will bite like shit.


PLEASE James ……….. RUN! ROFLMAO


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## Tanya Beka (Aug 12, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: I know I am just a pet dog trainer, but I rarely use physical correction in class (maybe 6 times in 2 years). If the dog deliberately disobeys, we figure out why and find a way to get the dog to think he is making the right decision on his own. We slow it down, find our patience and re-work it. And yes, these are just household pets who are nothing like working dogs, but in my ignorant opinion, it can work for other dogs as well, including the "high drive" working dogs who participate in sport.
> 
> What do you teach in these classes??? Not being a dick this time. LOL I am not defending the person making their dog yelp either, I have sen people that use corrections for the same thing over and over and over. Not everyone that is in dog sports really "gets it".
> 
> ...


I train OB in my classes...watch me, heel , sit, down, recall, stay etc. Basic stuff to make for a better well-behaved pet. Each class builds the skills of the last one and improves the OB commands int he dog. Eg: "Watch me" transitions into a beautiful heel by teaching the dog a "moving watch me". I originally taught with correcting the dog for forging, encouraging for lagging and praising for proper position. That was how I was originally taught. But I found that some dogs kept forging and corrections had to get stronger and stronger. So I changed the pattern and now, without correction, we get a beautiful heel where the dog is watching and attentive the entire time. And the dog is enjoying it, there is no compulsion, just a happy dog doing something fun.

I know it's not sport training. And I guess in sport training you need to be able to correct at times. I know they aren't golden retrievers or miniature poodles.

I like that you builkd a strong foundation of correct behavior before you begin correcting...I guess that is what I was hoping Sch cluns did. I've just seen and heard too many horror stories and I assumed the worst. No, I didn't give the club a chance. I just saw zap zap zap of the shock collar and didn't like the feel of it.

As for the dogs deliberately disobeying...I hold that to trainer error, but that's just me. If I have taught a dog to "recall" reliably, but they he doesn't do it, I reevaluate before I immediately go to correction. Is this a new scenario that the dog doesn't understand? Did I not increase the distractions slowly enough and build enough positive outcomes for the dog to want to do it? Is the dog having a bad day? Amd I having a bad day and my grumpiness is affecting the dog? So instead of correcting, I backtrack. If the dog could reliably recall at 30 feet off leash with distractions, but fails all of a sudden and doesn't do it, I step back to a situation he will do reliably again. We go back to on-leash at 10 feet. We practice until we get it and then slowly increase back to where we were before. It took an extra few minutes or hours, depending on the dog maybe even an extra day or two, but we get back to where we were and the dog didn't have any negative experiences and I didn't have to correct. Then we pactice it agian and they usually have it back. Sometimes the problem is that the dog is bored...so I change up what we do and make it more interesting so the dog is learning again. I rarely find a dog trained in positive methods without compulsion even WANTS to disobey...the "work" is so much fun, they enjoy doing it.

But again, this is pet dog stuff. Totally different. I just wan to see how far it can go in the sport world. I've heard of a dog getting titles with clicker training in Sch, so I know it can work.

I'm sorry if this thread has gotten out of control, I didn't think it owuld get quite so crazy. I guess everyone has their own opinion about things.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Tanya , 

I believe you saw the dog take multiple sleeves . It 's not an uncommon occurrence when starting out the dial drill. I call it the circle drill and sometimes depending on how it gets worked out the circle jerk . 

I just want to point out Tanya that you saw a small portion of their training . You don't know what else they have tried with the dog in the past . My bet is they started out motivationally . You don't know how many times they backed up in training , tried different things , backed up some more , before you saw them working out the proplem or problems in the dogs they were working . You don't know how long they have been using their current technique in an attempt to solve the problem/s . You saw one day out of how many they have been out there working with their dogs?

I will admit the vocalizing would concern me also but I don't know the dog . I've seen some good acting jobs put on by dogs to get out of a correction (yes a well needed correction) and I've seen others vocalize on anything , didn't have to be out of pain just something that got their attention . It would concern me though and because of that you can bet I'd be asking them questions about it . 

James Downey , feel free to come to my town and run from my dog I'll give you the days and shift I work . It's been awhile since I've had someone stupid enough to do that . My dog is getting bored .


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Tanya lets get back to your original response to Jeff where you said:

" I have muzzle fought police dogs, decoyed police dogs and helped train "much better and mentally stronger dogs" with positive only methods. No e-collars, no pinch collars, no choke chains. Just flat leather collars and leashes. In a span of about 20 minutes I watched a HARD malinois who WOULD NOT out the sleeve under any circumstances unless choked nearly to unconsciousness, voluntarily spit out the sleeve - training method 100% positive, flat collar only."

Are you talking about the Malinois you have pictures of which looks to be the same Malinois that Matthew has video of? How exactly did you help train any police dogs what was your official role?


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## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

Just poppin in there Uncllou. I didn't think this was giving you enough material for one of those trademark multi-quotes you're the master of. No need to thank me. Regards.


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## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

Tanya Beka said:


> I went to view a local Schutzhund club yesterday to see about joining to help train a client's dog in the sport.
> 
> I was told it was one of the more positive based training clubs, but when I arrived I witnessed EVERY dog in e-collars for the training. I asked what percentage of people used e-collars and he said 100%. A trainer there told me that that they were used on a very low level just as "stimulation", but I couldn't help but notice the dogs during OB work yelping loudly when "stimulated".
> 
> ...


Hey Tanya, are you sure they were being stimmed when they were vocalizing? I've seen a couple of dogs screetching with anticipation of getting that hidden ball or tug in obedience.


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

Tanya Beka said:


> probably the same place you saw it at. I didn't watch the video you posted, so it may well be the same dog. Sorry.


I saw it live at the seminar I hosted... the dog carried two sleeves and went for but couldn't take the third. I don't remember meeting you there.


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## Dwyras Brown (Nov 21, 2008)

Tanya, I would love to see you try to train a very strong willed, dominate dog (not talking about lap or purse dogs) with your style of training. Either you'll get bit, trained by the dog then punked, or you'll give the dog away. I just don't see you being able to train the dog without some type of correction. So until you do it, I think you're just blowing smoke.


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## Tanya Beka (Aug 12, 2008)

puff puff I quit


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jeff said;
"I have a question for Bob. How many times have your dogs been corrected at the house ??

Not that much with physical correction. At most a scruff or lifting a pup off his feet. ALL my dogs have been pups when I got them. Simple house manners, etc are a piece of cake...or it shoud be.:grin: 
Have I gotten physical? Unfortunately yes! I had a HUGE temper problem when I was younger. I've gotten better with age but I've lost my temper at times. I think we can both agree that isn't productive. The wife says it's like trying to hold a conversation with Howdy Doody. 

Susan
Chill out young lady! :lol: I gave my opinion about motivational training having a stronger bond. I DO believe it based only on my own experiences. Nothing more, nothing less. 
I think it was jeff that made the comment that correction is a form of dominance. I agree with that and don't feel, for MY needs, that I need physical dominance to control my own dogs. 
I can still loose it. Guilty! That's not really teaching anything other then confusion and mistrust on the dog's part. 
Calling BS has put me into a deep, deep state of depression now. .......:-k: Well......maybe not TO deep! :-D :wink:


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Since we cant have Emilio its sort of fun having threads like this there allot of really funny stupid shit spewing. This one may hold a spot in the "Top 10" stupid comments made on WDF for quite some time.


James Downey said:


> I have worked an uncountable of number of actively working LE dog (both police and military)...and I can count on one had the dogs that were worth anything and half of them had eaten up a few handlers, the rest you could work on an old sweatshirt and walk away unharmed...So I am not impressed with the "real" working dog training.


 I think Chuck Norris just pissed his pants


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Tanya Beka said:


> puff puff I quit


Before you go, I'd like to know why you sat through a training where you say the dog yelped because I assume you interpreted this as pain. 

Why, then didn't you attempt to stop it? Or, as Susan Tuck asked "why didn't you ask the handler why he was doing this", at least?

BTW, what sort of dogs do you own? I must have missed your introductory post. All I've gathered from your various critical postings is that you train pet dogs purely motivationally now and assist the police in their duty of training dogs.

I like to train motivationally, too, but I never leave the training field before the dog has carried out the exercise correctly, freely or not.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: I've heard of a dog getting titles with clicker training in Sch, so I know it can work

Heard ?? Is this the infamous Yagus ??? There are THINGS trained with a clicker, and then there is "getting titles with clicker training"

Steve, how could you even THINK of correcting Lou's spelling. LOL I had ONE thread years ago about snake proofing with Lou, and he crushed me like a bug. I think he can type as fast as his thoughts come. It takes me way to long to type just this response. : )

In basic OB, you can put all the distractions you want out, and my dog will probably be bored as hell. There is no comparison to the attraction of the decoy. Also, I just do not see all that many high drive pets, so I think we are on an entirely different plane when using the same terms.

However, if you think that all I want are titles, and that my dog and I are not buds, feel free to come by and see us. It will be a little embarrassing for you, but I will let you put on a suit and take a bite from a short distance if you want.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Jeff said;
> "Susan
> Chill out young lady! :lol: I gave my opinion about motivational training having a stronger bond. I DO believe it based only on my own experiences. Nothing more, nothing less.
> I think it was jeff that made the comment that correction is a form of dominance. I agree with that and don't feel, for MY needs, that I need physical dominance to control my own dogs.
> ...


Well you certainly made my day by calling me "young"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:lol: :lol: :lol:


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Jim Nash said:


> Tanya ,
> 
> 
> 
> James Downey , feel free to come to my town and run from my dog I'll give you the days and shift I work . It's been awhile since I've had someone stupid enough to do that . My dog is getting bored .


 
Jim before you go calling me stupid...lets just say we did all this, and you gave me the information, and I came out and did the pepsi challenege with your dog....Then your boss found out you premeditated this silly test....purley for the fact to boost your ego and to deflate mine. I think you'd be looking for a job

And your calling me Stupid??? At least pretend your a professional.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Since we cant have Emilio its sort of fun having threads like this there allot of really funny stupid shit spewing. This one may hold a spot in the "Top 10" stupid comments made on WDF for quite some time.
> I think Chuck Norris just pissed his pants


 

Why is it stupid? because your saying it's untrue...what's so uneducated about it? the only real resitance that comment got was some Ego driven Macho comments from cock strong cops (which is kind of scary that they are that reactive to a some critisim from a guy that they all consider "Stupid". I would like to see some more emotional control from police officers)...who just said with a beat red face, "Yeah, yeah Well my dog would bite hard and injure you very, very bad.

This place is great it's the only place you can talk shit to a cop, and thier badge can't help them!!! and look at how touchy they get!!!!


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

You commit a crime and run from my dog my boss won't have any problem with it . Not the type to play games(no pepsi challenge) . Not a test just for real . 

James , you are right on one thing , this is a good place to talk crap to me . You got a nice computer to hide behind and lots of miles between us . I don't need to call you stupid you are doing a good job of proving it yourself .


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: This mal had 4...yes...4 sleeves in his mouth at one time before he figured it out. But once he got it, he spat those sleeves out just as fast as he grabbed them in the first place. Such an amazing dog!
> 
> Got a picture of that ??
> 
> ...



I can't believe a dog can fit four sleeves in its mouth! !! WOW! That is something I need to see...lol

Jeff-

I was happy to read your post. I honestly thought you were full of BS(or your dog was a real POS :-\" ) when you used to talk about the correction free training you did. I am sure some dogs can do well with no corrections, but I have never see it, nor have I ever had a dog come here like that..

My malinois bitch had been retrieving perfectly well until about a week ago, it was hot, she was tired, and she just didn't go..I thought damn I am going to have to force retrieve her now after all. If I could I would love to not have to correct a dog ever again but that is just not been in the cards for me


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## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Steve, how could you even THINK of correcting Lou's spelling. LOL I had ONE thread years ago about snake proofing with Lou, and he crushed me like a bug. I think he can type as fast as his thoughts come. It takes me way to long to type just this response. : )
> 
> .


Yeah, I know I set myself up for that one Jeff. Shit, if I hadn't pointed out the difference between for and four he never would have been able to spellcheck those posts. He'd still be scratching himself trying to find "for" quotes.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Jeff-

I was happy to read your post. I honestly thought you were full of BS(or your dog was a real POS ) when you used to talk about the correction free training you did. I am sure some dogs can do well with no corrections, but I have never see it, nor have I ever had a dog come here like that..

Why you would be happy I don't know, but there are some things that I still have in my head about how to "get by" with this type of training.

The major mistakes I made involved some real brilliance on my part, I took him to a decoy cert. at 20 months. Not the brightest idea. 6 or 7 decoys on a bungee cord. I definately lost him there. Having seen a few of your dogs, I know you know what a shitter looks like. LOL HAD to dig you for your smarty pants happiness. : )

HOWEVER, I think that a crafty mofo with a really experienced decoy could possibly title a dog to 3 without corrections if they were to take the dog to 3 before the two year testosterone hit. Maybe, and definately at the club trial level, and definately not a strong dog.

I had never done correction free training, so there are probably countless mistakes I made that I don't even know I made. But as far as actually making it to three, someone who is really talented might actually be able to do it, as long as the titles were done fairly early. Pretty sure that after two, you are gonna have to use corrections.

I just had a lot going against me, I did not know a LOT about what I now know about the object guard, I definately was not the best marker, as I was late a lot, I think that goes back to the habit of correcting the dog, so I was looking for the wrong thing when I was not super focused. I tended to push a lot, to see how far I could push different things, especially heeling.

I definatly overbalanced my dog to the bitework, I had no choice but to use my dog to train a decoy, and that set me back a lot, as he likes to push the dog, but has no recourse when the dog went into overdrive.

I did like a lot of the results, but the thing I do not like that is a result more of what the dog is, is his response to threat, and he goes off into never never land, and forget about positive at that point.

However, I think that even a crafty mofo would crap out at two years of age if he was able to get the dog past the two. I think that or the three would be were the dog would go into over drive a bit and be done.

I also think if you were JUST to do it as an experiment, if the training was done right, and the decoys did not push, and just went through the motions, there is a possibility FOR EXPERIMENT ONLY, that you could get it.

I would also limit the terminology of "corrections" to using a pinch, slip, e-collar, or some sort of physical. I think that NO, and putting the dog up in a rude manner should be allowed.

I gave it a go, and when the dog was telling me on a consistant basis to go **** myself in the heel, and the whistle recall on a new decoy, that I had to start with the corrections.

Someday, maybe, I will take a dog and try the experiment. I definately think that Sch3 with a certain type of dog is possible, and Bob went out and did it. But he is retired and that is cheating.


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

Yeah..happy wasn't the right word I just couldn't believe what you were saying after talking to others with dogs out of similar lines as Buko..And since I have never had experience with any decent dogs doing well correction free I though perhaps you didn't have a clue what you were looking at..


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Jim Nash said:


> James , you are right on one thing , this is a good place to talk crap to me . You got a nice computer to hide behind and lots of miles between us . I don't need to call you stupid you are doing a good job of proving it yourself .


Took the words right out of my mouth Jim. Just another _"coward with a keyboard." _


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Steve Strom said:


> Yeah, I know I set myself up for that one Jeff. Shit, if I hadn't pointed out the difference between for and four he never would have been able to spellcheck those posts. He'd still be scratching himself trying to find "for" quotes.


I was gonna let this go but your repeated harping on it makes me regret that decision. And so……



Steve Strom said:


> I didn't think this was giving you enough material for one of those trademark multi-quotes you're *the master of. *


You didn't. And so I went looking for material to show the forum what you really are. A ZERO. 



Steve Strom said:


> No need to thank me. Regards.


But I will Steve. Thanks for letting me show the forum your skills. It was my pleasure. But you need to pay attention. You still managed to make an error for me to correct. You ended a sentence with a preposition. ROFL. 

BTW I noticed in the unedited version of your post this


> And most dog trainers I know with 30 years of experience have one year of learning, and 29 years of doing the same shit over and over again. I learned that one in my first week.


One of us has done 42 seminars and workshops in 18 states, 33 cities and 3 foreign countries? Uh Steve which one of us would that be? 

Could you please regale us with all the SchH titles you've put on your dogs? Oh wait, never mind. I just found a post from a few months ago where you failed BOTH tracking and protection at a trial. What's that old saying about not casting the first stone? 

And as I thought, you STILL have nothing to add to the topic. ROFL.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Lou,

has anyone ever won an argument with you on a forum - I know you can be slippery! Genuine question, I'm not asking to be rolled up here


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I think that NO, and putting the dog up in a rude manner should be allowed. .... Sch3 with a certain type of dog is possible, and Bob went out and did it. ....


BUT did he do it without putting the dog up in a rude manner:?:


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

maggie fraser said:


> Lou,
> 
> has anyone ever won an argument with you on a forum - I know you can be slippery! Genuine question, I'm not asking to be rolled up here


I'm sure that I have lost arguments but it's quite rare. 

I've made waaaay more than my share of mistakes in my dog training history. But I paid attention and rarely repeated them. I'm fortunate that initially I had poor teachers. At the time I thought they were extremely good – because compared to them, I knew nothing. I'm also fortunate that I found several excellent teachers, at about the same time I realized that I knew little. 

If you look at my early history on the Net you'll find hundreds (thousands perhaps) of posts asking questions, looking for knowledge. I wouldn’t think of getting into an argument as some do now! I didn't know squat, how was I to argue with those who had been training dogs for years? My phone bills back then (this was before cell phones and free coast–to–coast service, averaged $300–$500 a month. I was calling dozens of trainers all over the US looking for info. 

When I first heard about so-called "kinder, gentler methods" (and that's not meant as a dig) I got on every email list and forum I could find that existed about them, asking questions. One that I asked everywhere was "Has anyone heard of a police dog being trained with these methods." I never got an affirmative reply. Nowadays, when I pose that question I'm told to check with Steve White, (of the Seattle PD. I think he's retired now but might be wrong). I know Steve. I've met him. He's admitted to me he NEVER was able to train a dog from start–to–finish with those methods. I have it from good sources that, in fact, he purposely selected soft dogs so they could be trained at least in part, with them. I'd never select a soft dog so they could be trained more easily with some preferred method. I think doing so is a dis–service to the handlers that are going to work with those dogs and the public they serve. 

Of course I'm still open to learning something new; but I didn't get my knowledge as some have, by going to one trainer, thinking that he knew all there was to know, and then jumping on Forums and spouting _their _knowledge as if I (by osmosis) had learned it from them. Here we have Tanya who went to *ONE * SchH club and generalizes that very limited experience to other clubs. We have Steve who has yet to put his first title on a dog (he failed at his first try) who, nonetheless thinks he knows it all, and comes at me with personal attacks. It's not hard to come out on top with people like this! 

I usually limit my discussions to the Ecollar, a tool I specialized in and know a bit about. Again, I'm always open to learn something new, I don't have all the answers but I do know when someone is doing it wrong. 

I've changed my position a few times in discussions on the Net but usually I don't get involved unless I'm pretty sure that I'm right. 

This is probably a lot more than you, or anyone, wants to read but you asked. I've just been blessed by the fact that my career and life took me in so many directions and gave me so many opportunities. I'm sure there are LOTS of things that I don't know how to do, but those things rarely come up. And when they do I’m smart enough to keep my trap shut and not let everyone know how stupid I am about them. Many here would be served by such advice! 

I know that sometimes I've merely outlasted people and they just get worn out responding. I have too much spare time and brevity is not my strong suit. 

Along the way I've changed a few minds and opened some more. As an example, … when I started doing seminars on the Ecollar I'd ask if anyone had ever felt a low level stim. Back then no one had. But nowadays it's very rare when people have not. That's a definite change. Many people have accepted the tool and are looking for good info about how to best use them. 

Apologies for going so far off topic.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Lou, I won't mention the name, but geez don't you have a "friend" in the police business that trains PSD's with positive reinforcement only???? It's been an interesting thread. I have to go wash some sweatshirts though, I'm doing PSD certifications in couple of weeks and want to be ready.

DFrost


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## Tanya Beka (Aug 12, 2008)

I think I sincerely owe everyone an apology.

I got carried away, I let my ego and my snarkiness take over and I got really defensive from the getgo when I asked my question and didn't get the response I wanted.

No, I don't have a lot of experience.
No, I haven't done a lot of the things I said I have.
No, I never saw a dog with 4 sleeves in his mouth. Tried to fake a found picture, didn't work. SOrry.
Yes, I am a jerk.
Yes, I apologize.
Yes, this is my last post.
No, I don't want to stir up more trouble.

Thank you for reading.

When I know more, I will begin to contribute. Until then, I will just read and learn.

Sorry for the attitude and the trouble. Sincerely. It wasn't right.

Thanks for not kicking me off the board. I was a jerk and I deserved it.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Don't leave, there is lots to learn here.

But you went over about as well as a fart in a church. Live and learn.

Just get a pinch and an ecollar and be on your way. For what it's worth, I have these items but have yet to use the ecollar. It's coming though....



Tanya Beka said:


> I think I sincerely owe everyone an apology.
> 
> I got carried away, I let my ego and my snarkiness take over and I got really defensive from the getgo when I asked my question and didn't get the response I wanted.
> 
> ...


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

David Frost said:


> I have to go wash some sweatshirts though, I'm doing PSD certifications in couple of weeks and want to be ready.
> 
> DFrost


just make sure they're "old" sweatshirts or your better half may be a bit peeved when you bring the "good" ones home w/dog slobber on them


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Wow. you don't see that much . Very refreshing .

Tanya , I give you credit for admitting that and apologizing . Learning from ones mistakes is an important assett to have in dog training .

I hope others realize how rare this is for someone to admit such things and don't give you a hard time. I'd like you to stick around .


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Tanya Beka said:


> ... Thanks for not kicking me off the board. I was a jerk and I deserved it.


:lol: If everyone got kicked off when s/he was a jerk, this would be a lonely board. No members at all. Well, maybe David. :lol:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jim Nash said:


> ... I hope others realize how rare this is for someone to admit such things and don't give you a hard time. I'd like you to stick around .


Heck, yeah! To both!


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Dave , that's funny . It took me a second to get the sweatshirt thing . Good luck with the certifications . 

Just certified PD1 with my oldtimer yesterday .


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## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

Lou Castle said:


> I was gonna let this go but your repeated harping on it makes me regret that decision. And so……
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hey, I'm not done yet. I may fail a whole bunch of times.If I do pass I'll be glad to talk about what went well and what didnt.If I don't, I'll enjoy talking about that. If I get some video I'll be happy to post it for your critique. One wise crack really got under your thin skin Captain Eveready. For a guy that spends so much time rolling on the floor laughing his arse off, you don't find much funny.

I did want to contribute, as you put it, something from the perspective of someone pretty new to Schutzhund but the direction changed before I did.

And bragging about your seminars to impress a zero Lou??? Thats good stuff. Harping on it,Lol....


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Tanya Beka said:


> I think I sincerely owe everyone an apology.
> 
> I got carried away, I let my ego and my snarkiness take over and I got really defensive from the getgo when I asked my question and didn't get the response I wanted.
> 
> ...


Pffft forgot all about the stupid shit you said after that Storm guy started spewing shit he makes you look like a genius.
Dog training ain't rocket science once you got some years and experience in making mistakes and victories.
I can pick a shitter in less than 3 minutes and I can spot a n00b 3 sentences.


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## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

Storm guy,,,Lol..


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Steve Strom said:


> Storm guy,,,Lol..





I liked that too.

Hey, wouldn't it be cool if we started a web board where people talked about dogs and training and stuff and asked and answered dog-related questions?! 
:-D :-D

We'd have to find some grownups, but I think we could do it! :-D :-D


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## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

No room for immature zeros??????


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Steve Strom said:


> No room for immature zeros??????




Can they help find some grownups? :-D :-D :-D


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

I think it would be cool to have one of those sweat shirts that Steve's got. Maybe the mods could talk to Mike and get some and have Working Dog Forum logos screened on to them and sell them. How cool would that be hell yeah styling WDF 
Or how about this if this shirt can do like Steve says I bet every cop in the country could toss there kevlar and pull on one of them shirts and never have to give a worry or wast a drop of sweat again. How about that???:-k 
Like I mentioned in another post if I spent as much time and effort making money as I do dog training and thinking about it I would be a millionaire :lol: good thing for spell check I spelled millionaire wrong


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Mike, it was Downey that is the sweatshirt dog catcher.


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Jim Nash said:


> Wow. you don't see that much . Very refreshing .
> 
> Tanya , I give you credit for admitting that and apologizing . Learning from ones mistakes is an important assett to have in dog training .
> 
> I hope others realize how rare this is for someone to admit such things and don't give you a hard time. I'd like you to stick around .


Bravo Tanya ;-) Ditto what Jim said and I'll add that it takes a lot of courage to "stand down"  

We hope you'll stay...you'll learn lots here. If nothing else who the grown ups are or aren't :razz:


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

aaaawww crap Tanya, don't leave and don't be too hard on yourself. A bunch of us were awful quick to bite an easy target, so you aren't the lone ranger of assholiness. The picture thing was pretty sketchy but you owned up, which was a classy thing to do. You could have just walked away, but you didn't, you owned up, took your lumps, and that takes balls. All told, this whole episode actually shows you to be quite an interesting character so I hope you stick around.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> ... assholiness....



LOL!


I love it! :lol: :lol:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

That young lady has quite the vocabulary, huh!:lol: :lol:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> BUT did he do it without putting the dog up in a rude manner:?:


 
Just a little bit rude.......but it worked!:lol: :lol: 
Thunder was starting to do a lot of forging in his back transport. I said "Nope" and just took him by the collar !shudderd, shudder! and walked him to the car. 5 mins later his back transport was beautiful! :wink:


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## Tanya Beka (Aug 12, 2008)

Thank you for accepting my faults. I 'm going to check out a Ring club next week (with a smaller head on my shoulders this time) and see what I can L-E-A-R-N. Yes, learn, that's the word. 

Hard to admit I don't know everything about dogs. Ugh. But oh what a relief.

(I considered spelling relief wrong (releif) to see who'd correct my spelling, but I already know that.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Mike, it was Downey that is the sweatshirt dog catcher.


Meh hard to keep track with all brilliance.
Sticking my head in here this long I could have been stymied blind for a moment followed by a little spell of confusion.
dOWNEY's got the sweat shirt:-s I want one.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Nice one, Tanya.

Good luck at the Mondio Club.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Tanya Beka said:


> Thank you for accepting my faults. I 'm going to check out a Ring club next week (with a smaller head on my shoulders this time) and see what I can L-E-A-R-N. Yes, learn, that's the word.
> 
> Hard to admit I don't know everything about dogs. Ugh. But oh what a relief.
> 
> (I considered spelling relief wrong (releif) to see who'd correct my spelling, but I already know that.



You'll like ring. Good luck with it.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Tanya Beka said:


> Thank you for accepting my faults. I 'm going to check out a Ring club next week


Do the mistakes ever end


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Do the mistakes ever end


not without a little bit of compulsion


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Tanya Beka said:


> I think I sincerely owe everyone an apology.
> 
> I got carried away, I let my ego and my snarkiness take over and I got really defensive from the getgo when I asked my question and didn't get the response I wanted.


Wow! At least you had the cojones to apologize and stick around. Most in this position just disappear in denial.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Steve Strom said:


> Hey, I'm not done yet. I may fail a whole bunch of times.If I do pass I'll be glad to talk about what went well and what didnt.If I don't, I'll enjoy talking about that.


When and if you ever pass, then you may have something of value to say. Until then … Even discussing your failures really won't mean much because you don't know enough to tell us what didn't work. Nothing wrong with that except that you think you have something to say. You remind me of a yappy little dog snapping at my pants cuff. Bothersome but not amounting to much. 



Steve Strom said:


> If I get some video I'll be happy to post it for your critique.


Please do. No one is ever completely worthless. They can always serve as a bad example. 



Steve Strom said:


> One wise crack really got under your thin skin Captain Eveready.


Captain Zero, I'm not known as someone who suffers fools lightly. Perhaps if you had accomplished something in your dog training history beyond housebreaking … (If you've ever managed that?!)



Steve Strom said:


> For a guy that spends so much time rolling on the floor laughing his arse off, you don't find much funny.


I find you quite amusing. 



Steve Strom said:


> And bragging about your seminars to impress a zero Lou??? Thats good stuff. Harping on it,Lol....


It's not bragging if you can do it. Just stating some facts since you were trying to diminish me. Some people can only feel good if they drag others down. That seems to be your MO.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Pffft forgot all about the stupid shit you said after that Storm guy started spewing shit he makes you look like a genius.


ROFL!


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Lou, many thanks for the informative reply.


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## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

Lou Castle said:


> When and if you ever pass, then you may have something of value to say. Until then … Even discussing your failures really won't mean much because you don't know enough to tell us what didn't work. Nothing wrong with that except that you think you have something to say. You remind me of a yappy little dog snapping at my pants cuff. Bothersome but not amounting to much.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What a relief that you find me amusing Lou. I thought I had managed to irritate you. I think you should branch out, give seminars on forum protocol. Some other worthless, foolish, yapping little dog is gonna make a crack you don't find amusing and you'll end up suffering the indignity of riding in to right all that was wrong and remind him or maybe her that they're no Lou Castle!

Somehow I managed to stumble into housebreaking my dogs. Sometimes they heel, recall, even out. I can't explain it Lou, I've only been to one seminar and it wasnt even a Lou Castle seminar. I need to keep my eye out for one thats open to general public types like me.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Steve Strom said:


> What a relief that you find me amusing Lou. I thought I had managed to irritate you.


Keep yapping Steve, it's what little dogs do.


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## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

I noticed that Lou.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

This grade school crap is getting old folks!


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## Alyssa Myracle (Aug 4, 2008)

My dick is bigger'n everyone's.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Alyssa Myracle said:


> My dick is bigger'n everyone's.



that doesn't surprise me one bit.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

15 pages is more then enough!


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