# Do you believe some pups are born to be anti-social?



## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

Discussion came up the other day when talking about getting a GSD or Mal pup. I had thought some dogs are born will no will to please, very little social skills or pack orientation, and would pretty much behave like they dont care whether you live or die. 

The other side believes proper socialization can turn any pup into a good, stable family dog.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I think the other side needs to get out more, and see more dogs/pups


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

Ive seen adult dogs like that, but havent raised, or seen firsthand, pups like that from day one. Like stripe from the gremlins


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## Dana Escobar (Sep 16, 2010)

Why else do breeder's tend to breed for temperament, because puppies often have similar characteristics as their dam or sire? No, they all are unique in their own way, perhaps "carved" into their individuality by experiences that occur after birth, but in my opinion, I do believe that there are some puppies produced that are just "anti-social". However, I believe it has more to do with a chemical imbalance. I have personally worked with dogs from infancy that, even with proper attempts at socialization, no introduction that could have possibly been fear-inducing, they refused to gain confidence, nor did they seem as if they were fearful. They merely did not react. I think it is rare though. I highly doubt it is a common occurrence. After all, dogs, despite some seemingly coming across as hermits, are pack animals. They want structure. I think the only reason they would choose not to have a pack structure, is if the only available pack, whether it be animals or humans, lacked the structure fit for the dog in question.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Im pretty sure there are pups like that....my female was like that from the getgo....had a firm dislike of anything that was able to breathe, be it child, adult, dog, cat...anything and she would go for it without warning. when I went to pick her up at 7 weeks she lunged for me :lol: decided to myself "ahwell" and took her home with me only to have her go after my other adult dogs. trust me you havent lived untill you have seen a 120 pound mali run and hide from a 7 pound pup :lol: tried training her which was a disaster since she would simply take what you threw at her and do her own thing regardless...training playfull failed, training motivational failed, training compulsive failed, training painfull failed...so eventualy i quit trying and kept her as a housedog...she was a wonderfull dog for me, not so for my husband but she accepted him as part of the household. I jsut accepted her as she was at some point and that brought us some stability and she evened out a bit after that but still wasnt trustworthy as soon as we went outside...not the kind of dog i would ever want to have again.

came out of eros/van dijk line which was a pretty good line back then....


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

The Fila Brasilero is a good breed to demonstrate this, the descriptions of the "ojeriza" type temperament is not HYPE in most cases. I have worked with quite a few, and it is true...most fila are good with all family members but distrustful, or even hateful of outsiders..

I have raised dogs from pups that were socially aggressive, period.
They were aggressive to people outside of their "pack", and were fairly dominant as well with people inside the pack, but managable for sure. And no amount of socialization would change that, the dogs would not accept anything from anyone but me or my GF. Try to feed them a hotdog, they would bite you, without any type of training for food refusal. Try to pet them, they would bite.

whoever said any dog can be made social is a moron in my book...


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## Ricardo Ashton (Jun 3, 2010)

Matt Grosch said:


> Ive seen adult dogs like that, but havent raised, or seen firsthand, pups like that from day one. Like stripe from the gremlins


LOL I kinda liked Stripe :-D


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## Mario Fernandez (Jun 21, 2008)

A friend had a GSD (Karthago bred) important at 8 weeks had him till he was 14 months,sold him to PD which gave him back 36 hours after be bit the shit out of two of the trainers and handlers for the PD. The dog was socialized taken every where as a pup. No matter what the dog did not like anything people, animals .Even at 5 the owner still tried to socialize giving people packs of hot dogs to feed the SOB. The dog tolerated the helpers because they gave him bites, forget about handling the line for corrections, you were fair game. The owner was able to get the dog multiple Sch 3 and competed at national events. He was one of the few dogs I seen that I can say he was born mad at the world.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> The Fila Brasilero is a good breed to demonstrate this, the descriptions of the "ojeriza" type temperament is not HYPE in most cases. I have worked with quite a few, and it is true...most fila are good with all family members but distrustful, or even hateful of outsiders..
> 
> I have raised dogs from pups that were socially aggressive, period.
> They were aggressive to people outside of their "pack", and were fairly dominant as well with people inside the pack, but managable for sure. And no amount of socialization would change that, the dogs would not accept anything from anyone but me or my GF. Try to feed them a hotdog, they would bite you, without any type of training for food refusal. Try to pet them, they would bite.
> ...


Only had one Fila Brasileiro but apart from pup stage where he bit anyone who tried to come too near, he turned into a very scociable dog. Lived to be 14,5 years and never bit anyone after puppy stage. A very good guard dog . Our older GSD was similar to the FB when young but is also sociable to a point now at 6 years. The FB is easily trainable whilst never losing its mistrust. I like this about the dog. Would have anolther tomorrow but, apart from tracking at which they excel, their best work is in guard dogs.


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## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Im pretty sure there are pups like that....my female was like that from the getgo....had a firm dislike of anything that was able to breathe, be it child, adult, dog, cat...anything and she would go for it without warning. when I went to pick her up at 7 weeks she lunged for me :lol: decided to myself "ahwell" and took her home with me only to have her go after my other adult dogs. trust me you havent lived untill you have seen a 120 pound mali run and hide from a 7 pound pup :lol: tried training her which was a disaster since she would simply take what you threw at her and do her own thing regardless...training playfull failed, training motivational failed, training compulsive failed, training painfull failed...so eventualy i quit trying and kept her as a housedog...she was a wonderfull dog for me, not so for my husband but she accepted him as part of the household. I jsut accepted her as she was at some point and that brought us some stability and she evened out a bit after that but still wasnt trustworthy as soon as we went outside...not the kind of dog i would ever want to have again.
> 
> came out of eros/van dijk line which was a pretty good line back then....


I got a dog like that right now. Hes gotten much more behaved through maturity, but besides my wife and I, I'd never trust him off leash with anyone.


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Beau, my GSD, was antisocial and his littermate-brother Bandit was happy and social for the most part. They grew up in the same home and were treated the same. Total night and day difference in temperament. Bandit would look and think first before acting, Beau was of the "bite it first till it stops moving and deal with the consequences later" mindset. He was not safe around other people, or dogs outside my pack.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Only had one Fila Brasileiro but apart from pup stage where he bit anyone who tried to come too near, he turned into a very scociable dog. Lived to be 14,5 years and never bit anyone after puppy stage. A very good guard dog . Our older GSD was similar to the FB when young but is also sociable to a point now at 6 years. The FB is easily trainable whilst never losing its mistrust. I like this about the dog. Would have anolther tomorrow but, apart from tracking at which they excel, their best work is in guard dogs.


I dont doubt it...but there are variances in the temperaments, as in any breed..


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I've always worked towards all my dogs being social but I've had a couple that could never be trusted outside the family. One that wasn't trustworthy outside of me being present.
You may be able to "control" some behavior with socializing but stress and other factors will show the real dog.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

I think there are many dogs like that, i think they make good guard dogs or prison dogs, any working venue where they don't have access to the general public.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Most of our dogs are like that. 
We always socialize our pups and mostly they are outgoing and friendly with people until they are about 6-7mths old. 
Then they mature and get dangerous with strangers.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Martine-is this for real????


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> Martine-is this for real????


Yes, why the  smiley? you think it's a problem? 
I don't. mind it. I prefer a dog that is social with his own family only and indifferent with other people as long as they leave him alone. 
Don't like a dog that allows strangers to pet him.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Martine Loots said:


> Yes, why the  smiley? you think it's a problem?
> I don't. mind it. I prefer a dog that is social with his own family only and indifferent with other people as long as they leave him alone.
> Don't like a dog that allows strangers to pet him.



couldnt agree more !

a dog doesnt need to be social outside his own pack in my eyes...as long as he/she is social to me i dont see the problem...I dont want him.her to lunge for anyone just coze he feels he can...he/she should ignore them unless they feel the need to do something stupid like perhaps pet him without asking me first...as for outsiders thats their problem...theres a leash on my dog for a reason...ask before you act.


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## Ellen Piepers (Nov 6, 2008)

Matt started the topic with antisocial dogs even towards the entire pack, including the handler. If a dog is born like that, he has bad luck as he can't really leave the pack and will probably be bothered with it continuously (which can't be healthy). If a dog can't get along with another pack member, it might be possible to control the behaviour if your impact is strong enough, but in your absence the problem could even be worse and they have no option to leave the pack, which makes it worse.

I think that behaving antisocial outside their "pack" can only be influenced to a certain extent: in the presence of the handler, if the handler has enough control, and to the extent the nature of the dog allows for it. When the handler is not present, it's an entirely different thing, as already said by others.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Ellen Piepers said:


> I think that behaving antisocial outside their "pack" can only be influenced to a certain extent: in the presence of the handler, if the handler has enough control, and to the extent the nature of the dog allows for it. When the handler is not present, it's an entirely different thing, as already said by others.


I have had one of these - hated strange dogs and people. She was really hard work and I did get on top of it to some degree and she was incredibly obedient in public but only due to intensive training. I had to monitor her stress levels at all times and know when to bail. I wouldnt let anyone else handle her as I got to be able to read her like a book and I had to have an eye on what was going on around us at all times. Taught me a lot though! She definitely had a screw slightly loose despite plenty of early socialisation. She was great with me though.

I wouldnt really want another. One that was antisocial within its own pack as well would be really hard and I dont think healthy for anyone including the dog.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Alice Bezemer said:


> couldnt agree more !
> 
> a dog doesnt need to be social outside his own pack in my eyes...as long as he/she is social to me i dont see the problem...I dont want him.her to lunge for anyone just coze he feels he can...he/she should ignore them unless they feel the need to do something stupid like perhaps pet him without asking me first...as for outsiders thats their problem...theres a leash on my dog for a reason...ask before you act.


Amen to that, some people need a lesson or two on how to approach or act around dogs, people forget they have four legs and not two legs, folks they are animals. I with some of you on here as long as my dogs are cool with the immediate than thats all I care about, provisions should be able to be made if need be. People ask why my dogs don't take cookies from other hands and there not social butter flies, because I don't want it or need it in my life thats why, For me they are tools if I want a pet I will go get me a Sieger dog or heinz 57 from the pound.


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## kevin holford (Apr 11, 2009)

My boy was socialized to hell. He lunged at anyone that got too close. Then he hit 9 months; then he became neutral, leave him alone and he'll leave you alone.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Harry Keely said:


> Amen to that, some people need a lesson or two on how to approach or act around dogs, people forget they have four legs and not two legs, folks they are animals. I with some of you on here as long as my dogs are cool with the immediate than thats all I care about, provisions should be able to be made if need be. People ask why my dogs don't take cookies from other hands and there not social butter flies, because I don't want it or need it in my life thats why, For me they are tools if I want a pet I will go get me a Sieger dog or heinz 57 from the pound.


Yes many people dont know how to act around dogs. Mine are both tools (sheep work) and pets. My ACDS are very neutral around strangers. Cool and aloof and focussed on only me, but are very unlikely to lunge or bite unless I was in danger. That is what I like.

My Border collies are more likely to be social but when they are working nothing breaks their focus.


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## Ricardo Ashton (Jun 3, 2010)

I had a dog once like the OP might have meant. His sole purpose it seemed was to kill anything that was within his reach. He could not be left with other pups from 9 weeks cuz he would go to war on them. No matter what i tried.He would try to kill a bitch in heat rather than breed with her.The dog even challenged me on a few occasions He was the only one of all his littermates to have that type of character, & we haven't seen it in other pups since. I think its a rare thing. Somewhat beautful in its own way & scary as the devil in another. He ended up remaining with me till he was about 9. Got cancer & was PTS. Such an animal should be handled in a specifically controlled environment.


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## Jhun Brioso (Dec 28, 2009)

I have one right now. this mal ( male 14 month old ) was socialized intensively. On the very first day he saw my wife at 3 months old, he hates her & she feels the same way too lol.. As months past she became neutral to kids but still hates my wife & definitely strangers. i would not definitely have him off leashed with anyone around. His sire is out of Ando coeur de lion x Shiva airport hannover while his dam is out of Oslo du calvaire aux acacias x Orphee du domaine des selgneurs.


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## Dominic D'Ambrosio (Jan 24, 2011)

Didn't read all the posts here but my answer is YES and it has more to do with thin nerves!


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## Dominic D'Ambrosio (Jan 24, 2011)

Harry Keely said:


> For me they are tools if I want a pet I will go get me a Sieger dog or heinz 57 from the pound.


 last I checked they are living animals. A bit smug to look at them as tools. I haven't seen any forged with craftsmen on their skull.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Matt Grosch said:


> Discussion came up the other day when talking about getting a GSD or Mal pup. I had thought some dogs are born will no will to please, very little social skills or pack orientation, and would pretty much behave like they dont care whether you live or die.
> 
> The other side believes proper socialization can turn any pup into a good, stable family dog.


Matt in my experience I have seen dogs that were from birth dominate, not social, handler hard ....genetics and how the dice fell for that pup. Anybody that thinks they can change that in a dog is fooling themselves. All that can be done is to smooth it out best you can with training and conditioning. Thats my experience anyway.


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

"*Do you believe some pups are born to be anti-social?"*

Absolutely. My Czech female is super-sweet with me and my immediate family but pretty much hates everybody else, especially strange dogs.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Dominic D'Ambrosio said:


> Didn't read all the posts here but my answer is YES and it has more to do with thin nerves!


thin nerves why ? what do you consider to be thin nerves to begin with ?


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Dominic D'Ambrosio said:


> last I checked they are living animals. A bit smug to look at them as tools. I haven't seen any forged with craftsmen on their skull.



for a lot of people they are the tools of their trade.

and you may not see any craftsmen forged on their skulls Dominic but they are bred for a reason in a certain line which does indeed make them tools.

I have my workingdogs in a kennel and my pet in the house....my worker is a tool for me and my pet is just that...a pet...yep they are animals but they both have different means of use. nothing smug about looking at it that way....


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## Dominic D'Ambrosio (Jan 24, 2011)

Alice Bezemer said:


> for a lot of people they are the tools of their trade.
> 
> and you may not see any craftsmen forged on their skulls Dominic but they are bred for a reason in a certain line which does indeed make them tools.
> 
> I have my workingdogs in a kennel and my pet in the house....my worker is a tool for me and my pet is just that...a pet...yep they are animals but they both have different means of use. nothing smug about looking at it that way....


For each his own. How are your dogs pliers?


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## Dominic D'Ambrosio (Jan 24, 2011)

Alice Bezemer said:


> thin nerves why ? what do you consider to be thin nerves to begin with ?


How come I'm getting the feeling your bird dogging me. I consider dogs with thin gauge wire(tools and accessories) to be very growly around new people. Might strike you as tough and aggressive or shall I put in in hardware terms for you to comprehend?


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Dominic D'Ambrosio said:


> How come I'm getting the feeling your bird dogging me. I consider dogs with thin gauge wire(tools and accessories) to be* very growly around new people*. Might strike you as tough and aggressive or shall I put in in hardware terms for you to comprehend?


What you describe here indeed has to do with thin nerves, but this isn't the only decription for not being social.

My dogs are perfectly at ease in any situation, but they don't like to be messed with. Leave them alone and they will ignore you too. Touch them and you'll be bitten.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Dominic D'Ambrosio said:


> For each his own. How are your dogs pliers?


Im going to have to explain to you how to read am I not Dominic ? the dog IS a tool...it doesnt have TOOLS....so asking me about the dogs pliers makes as much sence as me asking you about youre experiance...not at all.



Dominic D'Ambrosio said:


> How come I'm getting the feeling your bird dogging me. I consider dogs with thin gauge wire(tools and accessories) to be very growly around new people. Might strike you as tough and aggressive or shall I put in in hardware terms for you to comprehend?


Long toes comes to mind here...did I step on them by responding to youre posts ? 

Everyone is entitled to an opinion Dominic...yes even YOU :lol: doesnt mean you have to agree with me or disagree...does mean you need to put on youre big girl panties and grow a a backbone tho....now are we quite done here Dominic or should I stop calling dogs a tool and start calling you one since you are acting as one :-s

(and yes I know youre a boy, i was being sarcastic...and scary enough even that has to be explained to you)


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## Dominic D'Ambrosio (Jan 24, 2011)

Still don't get it. I don't look at animals as non living like you! So what function does your tool provide? Seeing eye dog, police service, detection, or does it get worked and thrown in it's cabinet after work so you can brag about how bad ass your tool is. Don't let your panties ride up to far Alice.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Dominic D'Ambrosio said:


> Still don't get it. I don't look at animals as non living like you! So what function does your tool provide? Seeing eye dog, police service, detection, or does it get worked and thrown in it's cabinet after work so you can brag about how bad ass your tool is. Don't let your panties ride up to far Alice.



was just looking at youre bio...which is nonexistant as when it comes to information on how and what you do but OK lets move on....

As for my dogs...i train them as Policedogs...and I dont throw them into cabinets...thats a waste of a good bit of furniture...I throw them outside in the grewling cold in a kennel ! someone SHOOT ME...im a mean evil dogabuser :lol:

actualy to be a little less sarcastic for a moment...My dogs work 24/7 or train since i dont work with the police i just train the dogs and then sell them to the police or any L.E. service that has intrest in my dog. I dont train it to be a pet i train it to do a specific job which does not involve being cuddly and fluffy and happy go lucky clicker food training blablabla... I train a tool for the police or whatever LE service that buys the dog uses it for...yes its a dog but its still a tool of their trade...and Dominic ? I dont brag about my dog being a mean evil bad ass tool. I simply call it what it is. does that offend youre sensitivities in any way ? should i be all fluffy and googoo eyed over the dog ? maybe I should buy a clicker :lol: yeah right...like thats going to happen...

now why dont you tell us about what you do with youre dogs (if you even have any) and dont worry about my panties riding up Dominic...I dont wear any :lol:


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## Dominic D'Ambrosio (Jan 24, 2011)

Let's not act like I started this and yes I treat dogs similiar but I don't look at them as inanimate objects as you. So your into dogs to make money by selling them? Have you ever took a tool for A walk. I ask that seriously as I will only refer to them as tools when I correspond with you since I believe you need special attention. Yeah look everybody it's me Alice the bully babe, pushing around the new guy. See how tough and growly I am. Your probably as anti social and insecure as your dog.

I'm done, "never get in arguments with fools, as passers-by won't know the difference"
You win I lose


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Dominic D'Ambrosio said:


> *Let's not act like I started this *and yes I treat dogs similiar but I don't look at them as inanimate objects as you. So your into dogs to make money by selling them? Have you ever took a tool for A walk. I ask that seriously as I will only refer to them as tools when I correspond with you since I believe you need special attention. Yeah look everybody it's me Alice the bully babe, pushing around the new guy. See how tough and growly I am. Your probably as anti social and insecure as your dog.



all i did was ask you what you felt were thin nerves and why....a genuine question since everyone reads something else into thin nerves and I wondered what you felt about it...for you to then jump into the sandbox and start screaming "dont take my toys" is youre way of handling it...and yes im a bad bully and mean and cold and i dont love my dogs and i kick them and beat them and i throw them in kennels and let them freeze and starve....did i forget anything ? ooh yes...apparantly i dont even walk them! 

now to get back to the issue at hand...are you going to answer my original question or do i have to send you back to the sandbox of which you are clearly so fond ? If you want to talk and ask questions and get answers dont start crying wolf when you get them Dominic...mouthing of also isnt going to get you any points...as for what you think of me ? could give sweet **** all...Id like to know the extent of youre experiance and we might even have a good conversation but face it Dominic...as long as you keep acting as a toddler i will keep treating you like one...its up to you.

and you can make assumptions about me and how I treat my dogs and I will just say...you dont know me so jump to assumptions all you like...I dont have to feed or **** you so youre opinion matters very very little to me.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Dominic D'Ambrosio said:


> Let's not act like I started this and yes I treat dogs similiar but I don't look at them as inanimate objects as you. So your into dogs to make money by selling them? Have you ever took a tool for A walk. I ask that seriously as I will only refer to them as tools when I correspond with you since I believe you need special attention. Yeah look everybody it's me Alice the bully babe, pushing around the new guy. See how tough and growly I am. Your probably as anti social and insecure as your dog.
> 
> I'm done, "never get in arguments with fools, as passers-by won't know the difference"
> You win I lose


Dom what is you experiance in thr sport dog and PPD field ?


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## Dominic D'Ambrosio (Jan 24, 2011)

Sorry. Now that you mentioned it I am hungry, so how bout dinner and a movie? You'd be begging fur more and im not talking about me being inadequite.LOL
I train personal protection. I'm not involved in sport. I guess I got carried away!


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## Dominic D'Ambrosio (Jan 24, 2011)

Jim Nash said:


> Dom what is you experiance in thr sport dog and PPD field ?


I have seen many of the sports and understand them well. I train personal protection dogs and sometimes pets that are unruly.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Dominic D'Ambrosio said:


> Sorry. Now that you mentioned it I am hungry, so how bout dinner and a movie? *You'd be begging fur more and im not talking about me being inadequite*.LOL
> I train personal protection. I'm not involved in sport. I guess I got carried away!



I Dont beg for fur :lol: actualy I dont beg at all >.< and the fact that you have to mention the inadequate part confirms my suspicion but ill stop here 

dinner and a movie ? sure! can we watch old yeller ? I seem to remember he got shot at the end...my kinda ending :lol:


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

I'd think it's thin nerves most of the time. Living in America it's tough to own a thin nerved dog. Maybe it's different in smaller countries. 

I know 5 nice PSD's and not one of them is lunging or insecure around people, that would be retarded. These are working dogs in the city and see plenty of real action. Just good solid dogs, nothing mythical about them.


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## Dominic D'Ambrosio (Jan 24, 2011)

Al Curbow said:


> I'd think it's thin nerves most of the time. Living in America it's tough to own a thin nerved dog. Maybe it's different in smaller countries.
> 
> I know 5 nice PSD's and not one of them is lunging or insecure around people, that would be retarded. These are working dogs in the city and see plenty of real action. Just good solid dogs, nothing mythical about them.


Brace yourself, you may get attacked for saying that


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Al Curbow said:


> I'd think it's thin nerves most of the time. Living in America it's tough to own a thin nerved dog. Maybe it's different in smaller countries.
> 
> I know 5 nice PSD's and not one of them is lunging or insecure around people, that would be retarded. These are working dogs in the city and see plenty of real action. Just good solid dogs, nothing mythical about them.


Id agree with the nerves parts upto a certain point...I had a dog who felt that attack was the best defense...had nothing to do with courage but all to do with nerves. I dont however think its nerves in all dogs that have this attitude tho..there are simply assholes in a litter that do this by nature for no real or apparant reason. Never had much issue with it tho as long as he is social with me and doesnt lunge for no good reason at others it doesnt really matter to me. a good dog doesnt have to be social...it has to listen and know its place in the order of things. its up to the handler to keep it that way.


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## eric squires (Oct 16, 2008)

Hey Jhun, I have worked and been around Ando,the grandsire of your dog, for many years he is a tough S.O.B. He is very much like her.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Alice said;
"a good dog doesnt have to be social...it has to listen and know its place in the order of things. its up to the handler to keep it that way."

Social, to me, means nothing more then the dog has to except whatever I chose to expose it to. Doesn't mean it has to be friendly or even like it. It just has to except it because I say so. :wink:


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## Jhun Brioso (Dec 28, 2009)

eric squires said:


> Hey Jhun, I have worked and been around Ando,the grandsire of your dog, for many years he is a tough S.O.B. He is very much like her.


Hi Eric Thanks for your reply.. Also saw your website.. Very nice dogs you have there! So ando is like my cairo also.. My mal's sire is Gildo v. roten sturm & he's dam is Torly bred by debbie Skinner. Do you know any progenies of Ando who has the same character like my mal? I'm thinking it's fairly genetics. oh well this mal gives me problems sometimes specially when my wifey's around lol..


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## Jessica Carter (Jan 23, 2011)

I think that my puppy Stanly is anti-social but, I do not actually know. For some reason he is not really interested in doing anything and usually dogs during their puppy stages are the most social and worked up but, my puppy is not like that at all. I can't get him to do anything, not even training.


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## Erin Webber (Nov 8, 2009)

Hey Jhun, yep i have seen plenty of Ando pups over the years with the same attitude. I personally love the dog. One of the scariest things i have ever had to do with a dog was go into Ando's house when no one was home to to get something. It took some planning.


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## eric squires (Oct 16, 2008)

That was not from Erin. I logged in on her computer and was not paying attention. We work to getter.


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## Jhun Brioso (Dec 28, 2009)

Hey Eric, so no wonder why my mal is also such an SOB lol.. I guess that no amount of socialization could ever change this dog's character.. Ando is a german import right? Ando's direct son Gildo was also an SOB.. Being a farm/Guard dog he has put down quite a number of turkeys, a sheep, a Goat & rooster. Not to mention the only one who can feed him is he's owner.. I've also been around with a Ando grandson out of an OT vitosha dam with the same character.


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## Erin Webber (Nov 8, 2009)

Ando was bred and born here in the states. His father and grandfather were a badasses. They were imported. Gildo's dam was imported. She was a kool dog as well.


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## Jhun Brioso (Dec 28, 2009)

Erin Webber said:


> Ando was bred and born here in the states. His father and grandfather were a badasses. They were imported. Gildo's dam was imported. She was a kool dog as well.


Thanks for the info erin.. Now i know where that bad ass character came from.. lol..


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