# Ever had to deal with a dog that wont shut up in the crate?



## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

Whining when you put him away at night and whining at the crack of dawn because he is pouting and doenst want to be in there?


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## Shane Woodlief (Sep 9, 2009)

How old is the dog?


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Yup, but have no advice to help you. I just stopped crating him.


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

year and a half, but its been pretty much a behavior thats always been there


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## Terry Devine (Mar 11, 2008)

If you are sure he will not soil in the house and you can keep him from reaching anything that he should not chew, try tehthering next to your bed. Leash him to the leg of the bed and give him a kong with some frozen dog food in it. He will be close to you and have something to keep him occupied.

Good Luck

Terry


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## Doug Humphrey (Jul 25, 2010)

Have you tried covering the crate with a sheet. if you take the dog's line of sight away he will tend to use his ears to process what is going on around him. Whining is not condusive to hearing.....Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't. 

Doug Humphrey

"I know a few things about a few things"


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## Doug Humphrey (Jul 25, 2010)

One other thing I would stand quietly near by and when he is quiet go to the crate lift the sheet and reinforce either with a treeat or by letting him out. My 2 cents.

Doug Humphrey

"I know a feww things about a few things"


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

yeah, have tried covering him


tying him to the bed isnt an option


and I didnt want to but looks like a remote e collar is the only option


I got one of those automatic bark collars and would put it on him when he was in the crate, but then he figured out he couldnt bark but could still whine without triggering it apparently


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## kristin tresidder (Oct 23, 2008)

leslie cassian said:


> Yup, but have no advice to help you. I just stopped crating him.


LOL - yep. a 10'x10' magnum kennel outside makes everyone happy.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

House train him.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

kristin tresidder said:


> LOL - yep. a 10'x10' magnum kennel outside makes everyone happy.


E-collar, ear plugs, crate outside, broomstick, etc.....pick your poison LOL


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Matt Grosch said:


> Whining when you put him away at night and whining at the crack of dawn because he is pouting and doenst want to be in there?



put him in a kennel instead of a crate ? throw him outside during the night in a kennel...or whenever you aint around...

my guess is he learned this behaviour since it used to work in the past...he got his way a few times and now hes just going to yap and whine untill it works again...then again i could be wrong and he could just be a whiner by nature but more often thats how these things happen


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## Tamara Champagne (Jan 20, 2009)

Matt Grosch said:


> Whining when you put him away at night and whining at the crack of dawn because he is pouting and doenst want to be in there?


 
Yep, have a 10 month old Mal pup like that now. He was barking, but the anti-bark collar got rid of most of that behaviour, but same as you said, he has learned that he can still whine.

To be honest, other then being SUPER consistent about letting him out when he isn't whining, I'm not sure there are many options if your pup has to sleep in his crate. 

I am very careful that I don't go down to the crate if my pup is bitching about anything...only when he is totally quiet do I go down to let him out, and same thing goes with letting him in from the outdoor kennels. This has reduced the frequencey of the whining, but hasn't extinguished it. 

Another maybe obvious suggestion is to make sure you exercise the hell out of him before he gets put up. I take mine to the river valley almost daily after training, and if I don't....well, I hear about it. A tired puppy is a quiet puppy


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

-He is housetrained, but you cant leave a young malinois out unattended

-Ive given serious thought to building an outdoor dog run, but (besides a nice set up costing over $1,000), Im worried about the AZ heat, even if I put up misters and maybe a swamp cooler, if the power or water ever went out and it was 118 degrees in the shade........seems like a gamble

-Ive never done the 'normal' dog owner thing of giving in to his whining, if im even going downstairs near the kitchen/back door where he is and if he has whined even remotely recently I will purposefully find something to do for a few mins just so he doesnt think it has anything to do with his whining.

My best guess is just that its a separation anxiety and pouting thing

-a alot of exercise doesnt really seem to help either, I just put him away to take a nap (not lazy, just up working at night) and heard a little whimpering


My only concern was any possible negative side effects if I use an E collar, and the possible chance that it wont work (my plan would be to mark the behavior with a loud 'NO', and wait and when he does it again say 'NO' while simaltanouesly giving him a zap


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

which anti bark collar do you have BTW?

mine responds to whine as well...it has 7 settings and if the dog whines it will get what its asking for...

ill post the link ----> http://www.innotek.co.nz/NoBarkTraining.aspx#PBC-1000

i have the 200 with the charger and not a whine has yet escaped it...was looking at the PBC1000 and thinking maybe this would be an option for you ?


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Matt Grosch said:


> -He is housetrained, but you cant leave a young malinois out unattended
> 
> 
> QUOTE]
> ...


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## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

Since your home during the day, can you set a schedule for him? A routine he can learn. Take him out at 9 for x, take him out at 10 for y, 11 for z. That kind of thing.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

maggie fraser said:


> House train him.




LMAO, house train him LOL again Don't you know Mals are a one of a kind dog that can't be reliably house trained dogs Maggie? At least that is what I keep hearing.


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

Alice Bezemer said:


> which anti bark collar do you have BTW?
> 
> mine responds to whine as well...it has 7 settings and if the dog whines it will get what its asking for...
> 
> ...



I have this automatic one

http://www.petsafe.net/Products/Bark-Control/Static/Big-Dog-Bark-Control-Collar.aspx


and have a nice tritronic with remote that I havent used on him yet


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Where is the crate? If it's in the room with me I just make sure I have a pile of shoes by the bed before I go to sleep, any whining (I do make sure it's not "I REALLY NEED TO PEE" whining) results in a shoe up side the crate. If that doesn't stop the behavior, or I run out of shoes, then the crate experiences a sudden earthquake. If that still doesn't work, we have a 1 on 1 "discussion" about how much I do NOT like that behavior. I average less then 5 hours of sleep at night, I don't appreciate it being broken for no reason. On the flip side, if after I toss a shoe the dog settles back down, I will reward them, maybe just a sleepy "good boy" but I may also keep something in the room that I can give them.

If the dog is another room I just turn on a radio or TV in the room, toss a blanket over them, and usually can't hear them. Another trick that can help is to put a fan in front of the crate, something about the airflow muffles the noise, plus the "white noise" helps drown out any background noise in the house that might be triggering the "are we getting up yet" whining. If I can still hear the dog, then I will use an e-collar. 

If the whining is starting at the crack of dawn because of the light coming into the room, then either darkening the room or tossing a heavier blanket over the crate can help shut out the light. But ultimately at my house, even for the dogs who sleep loose in my room, the rule is that until I have gotten up and gone into the shower, they are just better off staying where they are. If it's a weekend, and I'm actually getting to sleep in for once, if I have to get up early I just tell them "no" when I get up, and they realize it's a bathroom run or whatever (might be letting out the pup who is in the other bedroom LOL) and it's not time to get up yet, because I'll be coming back to bed in a minute.


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

leslie cassian said:


> Matt Grosch said:
> 
> 
> > -He is housetrained, but you cant leave a young malinois out unattended
> ...


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

Steve Strom said:


> Since your home during the day, can you set a schedule for him? A routine he can learn. Take him out at 9 for x, take him out at 10 for y, 11 for z. That kind of thing.




He is out a lot, he likes to hang out in the back yard so he is often out for a few hours before putting him away at night (and its not to use the bathroom, he water is limited near night also)


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Where is the crate? If it's in the room with me I just make sure I have a pile of shoes by the bed before I go to sleep, any whining (I do make sure it's not "I REALLY NEED TO PEE" whining) results in a shoe up side the crate. If that doesn't stop the behavior, or I run out of shoes, then the crate experiences a sudden earthquake. If that still doesn't work, we have a 1 on 1 "discussion" about how much I do NOT like that behavior. I average less then 5 hours of sleep at night, I don't appreciate it being broken for no reason. On the flip side, if after I toss a shoe the dog settles back down, I will reward them, maybe just a sleepy "good boy" but I may also keep something in the room that I can give them.
> 
> If the dog is another room I just turn on a radio or TV in the room, toss a blanket over them, and usually can't hear them. Another trick that can help is to put a fan in front of the crate, something about the airflow muffles the noise, plus the "white noise" helps drown out any background noise in the house that might be triggering the "are we getting up yet" whining. If I can still hear the dog, then I will use an e-collar.
> 
> If the whining is starting at the crack of dawn because of the light coming into the room, then either darkening the room or tossing a heavier blanket over the crate can help shut out the light. But ultimately at my house, even for the dogs who sleep loose in my room, the rule is that until I have gotten up and gone into the shower, they are just better off staying where they are. If it's a weekend, and I'm actually getting to sleep in for once, if I have to get up early I just tell them "no" when I get up, and they realize it's a bathroom run or whatever (might be letting out the pup who is in the other bedroom LOL) and it's not time to get up yet, because I'll be coming back to bed in a minute.


I haven't had a puppy or young dog in awhile but my technique is very similar to yours except the shoes are usually still connected to my feet . I know I'll be chastized by some for ruining the bond with my dog or something else but I just went over and told them to SHUT UP ! and if it needed more I kicked the kennel at the same time . Worked well for my dogs , quick too and there were no ill effects from it either . I wouldn't recommended it for a nervebag though . If I offended anyone with my caveman like behavior I apologize .


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Matt Grosch said:


> -He is housetrained, but you cant leave a young malinois out unattended


What is your definition of housetrained Matt? And restricting his water intake at night, why do you do this if he is a year and a half old ?


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Where is the crate? If it's in the room with me I just make sure I have a pile of shoes by the bed before I go to sleep, any whining (I do make sure it's not "I REALLY NEED TO PEE" whining) results in a shoe up side the crate. If that doesn't stop the behavior, or I run out of shoes, then the crate experiences a sudden earthquake. If that still doesn't work, we have a 1 on 1 "discussion" about how much I do NOT like that behavior. I average less then 5 hours of sleep at night, I don't appreciate it being broken for no reason. On the flip side, if after I toss a shoe the dog settles back down, I will reward them, maybe just a sleepy "good boy" but I may also keep something in the room that I can give them.
> 
> If the dog is another room I just turn on a radio or TV in the room, toss a blanket over them, and usually can't hear them. Another trick that can help is to put a fan in front of the crate, something about the airflow muffles the noise, plus the "white noise" helps drown out any background noise in the house that might be triggering the "are we getting up yet" whining. If I can still hear the dog, then I will use an e-collar.
> 
> If the whining is starting at the crack of dawn because of the light coming into the room, then either darkening the room or tossing a heavier blanket over the crate can help shut out the light. But ultimately at my house, even for the dogs who sleep loose in my room, the rule is that until I have gotten up and gone into the shower, they are just better off staying where they are. If it's a weekend, and I'm actually getting to sleep in for once, if I have to get up early I just tell them "no" when I get up, and they realize it's a bathroom run or whatever (might be letting out the pup who is in the other bedroom LOL) and it's not time to get up yet, because I'll be coming back to bed in a minute.



do you use the e collar like I said I was thinking of doing?


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## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

Matt Grosch said:


> He is out a lot, he likes to hang out in the back yard so he is often out for a few hours before putting him away at night (and its not to use the bathroom, he water is limited near night also)


Yeah, but there's no structure to that. A routine with set times that he can get used to can help him settle down when you crate him.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Steve Strom said:


> Yeah, but there's no structure to that. A routine with set times that he can get used to can help him settle down when you crate him.


That's the very same thing that helps them settle in the house too.


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

maggie fraser said:


> What is your definition of housetrained Matt? And restricting his water intake at night, why do you do this if he is a year and a half old ?




wont go to the bathroom in the house


and I restrict his water because he loves to drink, likely more than he needs (just like how he would gourge himself on food half the time if I let him), so letting him drink all the water he wants before putting him up at night is setting him up for failure


also, since he didnt like the normal crate and would resist going in, as opposed to the collapsible one, I just bought one of the large metal ones, for the first few night he didnt whine, then when I covered it he didnt whine for a night or two, now back to the normal amount


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

Steve Strom said:


> Yeah, but there's no structure to that. A routine with set times that he can get used to can help him settle down when you crate him.




I dont think Im willing to do that, he has to adapt to my life, not me to his, E collar will come before that. 

Also, my woman is definitely not willing to do that (and im gone for 24 hrs at a time with the fire dept), but that doesnt seem to matter, he whines when im home or gone


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Matt Grosch said:


> wont go to the bathroom in the house
> 
> 
> and I restrict his water because he loves to drink, likely more than he needs (just like how he would gourge himself on food half the time if I let him), so letting him drink all the water he wants before putting him up at night is setting him up for failure
> ...


 
He is just getting over on you, your catering to him, this has been far too long, it shouldn't take an e-collar, but at this point in may be something to consider. 

You should of had a one on one early on......one that mattered!!


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## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

maggie fraser said:


> That's the very same thing that helps them settle in the house too.


Yeah. But Matt was specific about a crate.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Matt Grosch said:


> do you use the e collar like I said I was thinking of doing?


I thought I mentioned that, but yes, I will use an e-collar if neccessary. I've had dogs that did what yours has, learned to whine or bark a certain way to not set off a bark collar. It depends on the dog, their age, etc but I would have no problem using it on a 1.5 year old who is still doing this.

For the "house train him" responses, I've had dogs like this, and my experience is if you leave them out of the crate, then they start pacing, whining, pawing at the bedroom door, etc at the crack of dawn, instead of just whining. The crate just confines their behavior to one area, if loose the behavior increases because they add more behaviors to it, it doesn't decrease. Once they learn that early morning is still "sleeping time", in or out of the crate they will behave, at least in terms of not waking me up.

Matt, where is the crate? IE in your room, in another room, ?? If it's in another room, putting it in your room might actually help, makes it easier to smack it and say "shut up" but it also shows the dog you are still sleeping, and sometimes that's all it takes for them to decide they should to. I've found that sometimes when the dog is in another room, what I think is them getting up at the crack of dawn is actually them reacting to my neighbors who are up and about.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Kadi, do you know Matt and the dog ?


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

maggie fraser said:


> Kadi, do you know Matt and the dog ?


I don't think so, although it's not impossible that we've met at some event at some point, since AZ is just the next state over from CA.


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## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

Matt Grosch said:


> I dont think Im willing to do that, he has to adapt to my life, not me to his, E collar will come before that.
> 
> Also, my woman is definitely not willing to do that (and im gone for 24 hrs at a time with the fire dept), but that doesnt seem to matter, he whines when im home or gone


Yeah, I meant it as your routine, your times for him to adapt to.


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

Jody Butler said:


> He is just getting over on you, your catering to him, this has been far too long, it shouldn't take an e-collar, but at this point in may be something to consider.
> 
> You should of had a one on one early on......one that mattered!!




Ive exhausted pretty much every possibility, and have dont the things mentioned like going over and kicking the crate. Other than the E collar, there is no other way that I know of to address/punish it except for things that would supposedly hurt his potential (kicking his ass, spraying him, etc)


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I thought I mentioned that, but yes, I will use an e-collar if neccessary. I've had dogs that did what yours has, learned to whine or bark a certain way to not set off a bark collar. It depends on the dog, their age, etc but I would have no problem using it on a 1.5 year old who is still doing this.
> 
> For the "house train him" responses, I've had dogs like this, and my experience is if you leave them out of the crate, then they start pacing, whining, pawing at the bedroom door, etc at the crack of dawn, instead of just whining. The crate just confines their behavior to one area, if loose the behavior increases because they add more behaviors to it, it doesn't decrease. Once they learn that early morning is still "sleeping time", in or out of the crate they will behave, at least in terms of not waking me up.
> 
> Matt, where is the crate? IE in your room, in another room, ?? If it's in another room, putting it in your room might actually help, makes it easier to smack it and say "shut up" but it also shows the dog you are still sleeping, and sometimes that's all it takes for them to decide they should to. I've found that sometimes when the dog is in another room, what I think is them getting up at the crack of dawn is actually them reacting to my neighbors who are up and about.




interesting thought, but the compromise at home is that the dog has the downstairs but is not allowed upstairs (where our room is).

Ive talked to you by phone a few years ago, and met you in person at a tournament a few months back, but thats it, dont know each other (in response to the person that asked)


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Matt Grosch said:


> I have this automatic one
> 
> http://www.petsafe.net/Products/Bark-Control/Static/Big-Dog-Bark-Control-Collar.aspx
> 
> ...


Im an innotek/dogtra fan myself and like i said the 200 works perfectly for whining as well..

as for the tri with remote...it might work...untill your not there at which moment it might start again...i would think you would want a permanent kind of enforcement and not something that you can only apply when you are there to begin with...does the dog have free roam of the house during the day ? if so im assuming only when you are at home...then kennel it ! if mine would whine in the kennel simply coze its annoyed at the fact that its locked into something it dont like hes in for a pleasant suprise...simple fact is "it aint up to the dog" he will have to abide to what i feel is right and not to what he wants...

as for the "you cant leave a mali alone in the house" part ? nonsense mate....ive had mali's roaming the house all my life...from pup and some needed crating when going out and some didnt...has nothing to do with the breed its just some dogs eat a house and some dont like the taste of the house so they dont eat it.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Jim Nash said:


> I haven't had a puppy or young dog in awhile but my technique is very similar to yours except the shoes are usually still connected to my feet . I know I'll be chastized by some for ruining the bond with my dog or something else but I just went over and told them to SHUT UP ! and if it needed more I kicked the kennel at the same time . Worked well for my dogs , quick too and there were no ill effects from it either . I wouldn't recommended it for a nervebag though . If I offended anyone with my caveman like behavior I apologize .



Put many a size 6 to my dogs ass if needed when being a twit in the kennel...i dont think your a caveman 

some dogs just need the added incentive!


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

I've been here with this, it sucks. My GSD bitch barked for almost a solid 10 hours once, it was a moment to see whose will was stronger...mine was, but I was pretty pissy after no sleep all night. I tried a shock bark collar and all she did was bark until the batteries wore out, lol. It kind of went like this: BARK *warning beep* BARK *buzz* BARK BARK *louder buzz* BARK *buzz* YIP...BARK.

If you're like me and live in town, so you can't crate their ass outside and don't want to listen to the whiney shit inside, you can try like I did.

First off, my dogs are house trained, but we're crate training for our trip and when we get there, since we'll be in temp housing for awhile and I'm going to be getting stuff situated, so I need them somewhere safe and for them to be quiet. What I started with doing was I left the crate door open all day. My bitch will go lay in it as long as the door is open. Then I started feeding them in their crates, and letting them out as soon as they were done eating. Then along with eating inside, I was putting them in their crates with a kong periodically throughout the day for 30 min to an hour. Then I started getting them up to staying in there for 2-3-4 hours at a time. 
Now I tell them to go to bed at night and they get in their crates and are quiet until around 7 AM. But I'm up by then so I let them out. Sometimes at night I'll give them a kong with some PB and kibble in it, sometimes I don't. At least they dont' bark in there anymore. Occasionally the male will whine a bit, and a tossed item into the side of the crate or "STFU!" usually suffices.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

I would use the e-collar with a 1.5 yr old dog who still does it.

when whining tell him NO ( or any other command you want to use), give him stim. In the beginning give him a verbal correction or use your command for shutting up along with the stim. If your timing is good, he only have to wear the e- collar (or dummy or barkcollar) in about2-3 nights.


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Jim Nash said:


> I haven't had a puppy or young dog in awhile but my technique is very similar to yours except the shoes are usually still connected to my feet . I know I'll be chastized by some for ruining the bond with my dog or something else but I just went over and told them to SHUT UP ! and if it needed more I kicked the kennel at the same time . Worked well for my dogs , quick too and there were no ill effects from it either . I wouldn't recommended it for a nervebag though . If I offended anyone with my caveman like behavior I apologize .


I don't think that's wrong at all. When my male GSD first got here he'd try to race out the door and would plow into me. He learned quickly that it's a real bad idea when he made it about halfway out the door and was drop kicked back inside the door. Sometimes, they learn the hard way. Sometimes you just don't have time to have them learn the positive way for things like that, but getting booted in the chest or having the door slammed on your head is a fast deterrent. Work smarter, not harder.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Matt no ones ask nor have you told have you have this dog since a young pup? Maybe you want to maybe you don't want to admit, but when this dog made some kind of noise did you go and acknowledge the dog or let him out instead of dealing with it? I have had many bred pups as well as import pups, they pulled this hit for a while but got the point and quit. And they have always been in the house or in a climate control garage attached to the house. Reason I'm asking is because maybe your not but your other half as imprinted this behavior for you with your dog. Bark - human shows up, Bark - human shows up, you know what I'm saying.


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## Keith Earle (Mar 27, 2006)

A good Bark collar works wonder .dont let him out .just becaause he wants sounds like he,s trained you good lol.


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

Ive had him since he was about 6 months, and I know better to than to indulge their whining and give them what they want (with dogs, women, kids, I will purposefully do they opposite just out of principle)...and had an female AB that whined terribly as a new pup, put up with it forever (figured as long as I didnt react they would tire) and finally solved it instantly by spraying her, but thats one of the things I didnt want to risk screwing the dog up by doing with this one. Guy that had him before was an inexperienced competitor so I dont think he caused it either.




The only thing with the E collar, it has 7 settings I think (tried them all on myself just to know what Im dealing with), and my thought was to start light and increase the intensity, on some things like lifting the leg in the house I would think you would put it at the highest right from the start


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## Keith Earle (Mar 27, 2006)

if you get a bark collar ,it.s works only when the dog barks ,so you dont have to carry the remote for a e collar around tri tronics a good we used to train crazy mal,worked great good luck now if i could get him to sleep a little longer in morning he would be perfect.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Matt Grosch said:


> Ive exhausted pretty much every possibility, and have dont the things mentioned like going over and kicking the crate. Other than the E collar, there is no other way that I know of to address/punish it except for things that would supposedly hurt his potential (kicking his ass, spraying him, etc)


If it is a metal wire crate a broomstick should do it...if it a plastic crate a 1/2 inch dowel rod should do it  
just kidding....maybe...
I think the term is: Coup de pointe, coup d'estoc, a fench person can help with the translation


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Matt,if you are worried fixing this problem will alter his temperment and affect his potential then just maybe you should have a very good look at him?
How far along in training is he?


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

coming along very nicely in his bitework, and he has the social, will to please temperament I wanted, so he is perfect except for this one issue, I done follow you, are you saying I should consider getting rid of him for being a crate-whiner?


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

jack, side note, my dog's father is in thailand now





http://www.siamcrowndog.com/dog_detail.php?id=23


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Alice Bezemer said:


> which anti bark collar do you have BTW?
> 
> mine responds to whine as well...it has 7 settings and if the dog whines it will get what its asking for...
> 
> ...


Nice to know that gets the whine too as I'm looking into one!


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Matt,
no i am not saying you should consider getting rid of him because of this problem,you have explained now you are happy with him otherwise.I just mean to say that if he is not able to handle the corrections needed to fix this problem he may also not be able to handle other kinds of pressure.
Can you post a pedigree on the mothers side ?
Does your dog bark on command?
When does he start whining?


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Quote Where is the crate? If it's in the room with me I just make sure I have a pile of shoes by the bed before I go to sleep, any whining (I do make sure it's not "I REALLY NEED TO PEE" whining) results in a shoe up side the crate.
Unquote

lOL, Kadi, I thought I was the only one doing that! I use them more for the one who is barking at the window as I can neatly catch him on his thick head without causing permanent damage. It really only distracts the one in the crate for a second in which I tell him to SHUT UP!!!


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

...>>>he is perfect exept for this one issue

>>> on some things like lifting the leg in the house


that aint [email protected]! LIFTING HIS LEG IN YOUR HOUSE 
wouldnt fly here


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

he doesnt lift his leg in the house, I was saying that would potentially be a time where I would go right to max level...


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

had that problem with my Mal. I broke a broom over his crate once and that was followed by a food dish bring thrown at the crate. He gets it now and doesn't piss and moan about being crated in my house.

While I am working this week and next my working dogs are being kenneled at a training bud's home. He has been have problem with the Mali barking. He barked for over 20 hours straight the first day.

I don't know what they did but I understand the problem has been "fixed" with a crate, muzzle and ecollar


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

[QUOTE 
I don't know what they did but I understand the problem has been "fixed" with a crate, muzzle and ecollar[/QUOTE]

Probably stuffed him as well so you can keep him on the bookshelf in future :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Speaking of this topic, my male was whining at like 3 this morning. I told him to shut up. When I got up at 7 to let him out, he was laying in a big puddle of puke.
I didn't want to get up to check because A. it was 3 AM and I'm lazy, and B. the whole person showing up when the dog whines thing. I kind of wish I had, he smells nasty as hell.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

I think crates are the worst possible afflictions for dogs for daily life, if you don't have/won't provide kennel and run and you don't house train.....hell mend you, you deserve all you get ;-). Want a quiet lazy dog around the house, get a low drive dog, want a high wired working dog...then accomodate it (exercise, structure and train/job), or just get a stuffed dog. jmo In answer to the op....No! :grin:


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Ok?
I have a huge (almost 1000 sq ft) back yard that's fenced, my dogs are house trained also...doesn't mean they don't need to learn to chill out in a crate.
Mine spend the whole day loose, but I like them crated at night because A. they are annoying my neighbors by barking in the middle of the night, and B. there are going to be times they will HAVE to stay in a crate - I'd much rather they be used to it so it's easy going for temporary crating than going ballistic because they've never been in one before.

Now do I think it's fair to crate them all day while I'm gone, come home, let them out, and then crate them again at night? No way. But mine have free run of the house until around 10-11 PM to 6-7 AM.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Ashley Campbell said:


> Ok?
> I have a huge (almost 1000 sq ft) back yard that's fenced, my dogs are house trained also...doesn't mean they don't need to learn to chill out in a crate.
> Mine spend the whole day loose, but I like them crated at night because A. they are annoying my neighbors by barking in the middle of the night, and B. there are going to be times they will HAVE to stay in a crate - I'd much rather they be used to it so it's easy going for temporary crating than going ballistic because they've never been in one before.
> 
> Now do I think it's fair to crate them all day while I'm gone, come home, let them out, and then crate them again at night? No way. But mine have free run of the house until around 10-11 PM to 6-7 AM.


 
What you being so defensive about then ? :-D


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

I'm not defensive, just trying to figure out where you're going with it?

Are you saying that all crating is wrong, evil, bad, dumb, whatever...or that using the crate as a means of containing a hyper dog is bad? Or...? I'm trying to figure out where you're going that's all. 

I'm not sure if you deem it ok in moderation or as an evil thing in all situations?


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Ashley Campbell said:


> I'm not defensive, just trying to figure out where you're going with it?
> 
> Are you saying that all crating is wrong, evil, bad, dumb, whatever...or that using the crate as a means of containing a hyper dog is bad? Or...? I'm trying to figure out where you're going that's all.
> 
> I'm not sure if you deem it ok in moderation or as an evil thing in all situations?


What is moderation ? When is it good, when is it bad? We've been here before on another thread or two so won't thrash it about. Matt says he's not prepared to accomodate the dog...the dog is to fit in with his times or not at all as I interpreted. Many folks will tell you crating a dog will quieten a hyper dog...I'm of the belief it does otherwise. That's why I guess folks reach for the ecollar! That's just my opinion it's not gospel. No, I don't think all situations of crating are wrong.


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Ahh ok, I can get on board with that. I agree too, my dogs are hyper and when I let them out in the morning they are ape shit insane. Then again, I had no luck using a bark collar to shut mine up in the crate either, so I suppose different strokes for different...dogs.


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

maggie fraser said:


> I think crates are the worst possible afflictions for dogs for daily life, if you don't have/won't provide kennel and run and you don't house train.....hell mend you, you deserve all you get ;-). Want a quiet lazy dog around the house, get a low drive dog, want a high wired working dog...then accomodate it (exercise, structure and train/job), or just get a stuffed dog. jmo In answer to the op....No! :grin:




You seem to be the only person ever that doesnt like a crate (also dont 100% of police and military use them), I mentioned looking into the dog run, but dont want to risk it since he would die from the eat if anything malfunctioned


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## Jenna Lea (Jul 25, 2010)

kristin tresidder said:


> LOL - yep. a 10'x10' magnum kennel outside makes everyone happy.


Except your neighbors LOL


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Matt, I was trying to read where you say how much time he's in a crate per day (24 hour period)...maybe it's longer than you realize when you start added it up? If he's in at night..that means 9pm till 6am? Then is he out a short time and then back in because of the Arizona heat? I grew up in Brawley, where it's extremely hot and humid and could be 100 degrees at midnight 

The only time, I have a problem with a malinois that I raised from a pup was when I was hurt (bad horse accident) and actually was in the house a ton more than normal and "forcing" my young dog to be with me. I don't crate much, but had him next to me on the floor. Even with a bone to chew on he was getting anxious. I could of continued to insist that he stayed as sedate as I wanted, but chose not to impose my "injury" onto my dog. More freedom outdoors and exercise was the answer I chose. 

Maybe because of the AZ extreme temps you are keeping him in at night, plus during the day for hours? I've never had a dog object to 4-6 hours indoors at a time. Mine are out "free" to run all night and most of the day unless crated for travel, training or in the house for a few hours "just because". In the summers here because of the heat I take advantage of lakes and ponds to swim the dogs. Or, maybe a pool? 

I know how I felt when I used to work indoors all day and yes I put up with it because I was getting a salary, but I didn't like it. Me and my dogs are much happier outdoors. I think that's why I chose the Malinois as they are active and always ready to do stuff. 

Horses can adapt to stalls vs fields as well. Yes, like us, animals are adaptable, but many times exercise is the answer..relieves stress, great bonding time for you and the dog and a chance to interact and teach.. Again I know that it's difficult in the desert as I've been there and done that for the first 20 years of my life.


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## Natasha Keating (Apr 8, 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebjBo_spqG0
Susan Garrett's Crate games. Agility people train this way . This is the ad clip


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## Tyree Johnson (Jun 21, 2010)

maggie fraser said:


> I think crates are the worst possible afflictions for dogs for daily life, if you don't have/won't provide kennel and run and you don't house train.....hell mend you, you deserve all you get ;-). Want a quiet lazy dog around the house, get a low drive dog, want a high wired working dog...then accomodate it (exercise, structure and train/job), or just get a stuffed dog. jmo In answer to the op....No! :grin:


how many dogs do you have maggie? do you work? how do you house train a 8 week old puppy without a crate?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Ever get the feeling that Maggie's dogs are show line ?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Tyree Johnson said:


> how many dogs do you have maggie? do you work? how do you house train a 8 week old puppy without a crate?


It is easy to train a dog without a crate. I never use them and the dogs that come in the house are reliable. I left two in the house yesterday and was gone for six hours.....and these are wound up terriers. A lot of the problem I see is that your dogs are all born and raised indoors. That is where they live. Makes training them a lot more difficult. One method I see becoming much more common is Rimadyl. Much easier than training folks and you can have a high powered dog that fits your life style quietly and calmly.


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## Alan Fielding (Dec 7, 2009)

Rimadyl ??? Is this not a nsaid used for pain control???Who takes it the dog or the person???


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Tyree Johnson said:


> how many dogs do you have maggie? do you work? how do you house train a 8 week old puppy without a crate?


I currently have two dogs Tyree, previous to these I had four dogs, 2x gsds, 2 x jrts, before going into a life history here. I purchased all as young puppies (at different times lol) and house trained all in the same way. An eight week old pup is toiletting outside on his own in under two weeks but usually one, he already has a good idea in a few days.

I don't ever get a pup until I am able to constantly supervise for one week, I have pup in the house and immediately prior to and post feeding he is taken outside to eliminate, as well as every couple of hours I take him outside. He is given a variety of toys and stuff to chew on and a bed to sleep in, I remove stuff up off the floor where he can get himself into trouble and I watch him like a hawk. When he picks up stuff, I immediately exchange it with him for one of his own toys and do this consistently until he knows his toys/items in the house are only for chewing....doesn't take long. I also confine him to one room in the house which I've prepared pup safe and included his bed, and leave him on his own for around an hour whilst I go out at the same time every day. All pups are thoroughly housetrained which lasts a life time.

The rest is just progression and management but generally consists of regular structured exercise and training....easy peasy! That won't be very attractive for lazy folks, but being a sharp, active person I enjoy a sharp, active dog. The more hyper the dog, the more you need to exercise in my opinion much the same as Debbie's post above. There's more in there obviously but that is the low down on how I housetrain a pup without a crate. I also don't take on a pup when I know I will be fully commited with my time, knowing I can take a few hours here and there until they are solid in the house. I'm intending to get another pup soon so I am planning out now a kennel/run scenario, and the time I can take to spend on the necessaries.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> One method I see becoming much more common is Rimadyl. Much easier than training folks and you can have a high powered dog that fits your life style quietly and calmly.


Hey Don,

Medication is the answer to every question LOL
Rimadyl isn't cheap and you risk kidney damage instead of taking the time to train the dog. That's retarded.
Next thing you know we'll be medicating half the kids in School instead of making them behave :-(


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Alan, you are right, I don't medicate my dogs and apparently am getting the meds mixed up. People are using meds to calm drivey dogs down, to go to the vet, during thunderstorms, so it isn't rimadyl but that is the new way of handling dogs.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Not being into meds, I think pain killers make people goofy as all get out, maybe it is Rimadyl they use. LOL


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Hey Don,
> 
> Medication is the answer to every question LOL
> Rimadyl isn't cheap and you risk kidney damage instead of taking the time to train the dog. That's retarded.
> Next thing you know we'll be medicating half the kids in School instead of making them behave :-(


I thought they already were.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I thought they already were.


 
Me too.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

maggie fraser said:


> Me too.


Maggie,

They do......you and Don don't recognize sarcasm


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Maggie,
> 
> They do......you and Don don't recognize sarcasm


We don't ?? :lol:


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## Alan Fielding (Dec 7, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Alan, you are right, I don't medicate my dogs and apparently am getting the meds mixed up. People are using meds to calm drivey dogs down, to go to the vet, during thunderstorms, so it isn't rimadyl but that is the new way of handling dogs.


Don - I think the drug you were alluding to is Ritalin.This is a drug that it prescribed to children who are unable to concentrate and are "unruly" in school. Prolly works on dogs too!!! Take a pill and solve a problem that probably wasn't there in the first place.Gotta love the drug companies for creating medicines and then looking for "diseases" where they "help"


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Thank you Allen, that may be the one people were using. At any rate, it is hard to believe we have come so far. I think this is why the term is for certain people and methods"progressive". Used to wonder exactly what that meant. Progressive is an antonym.


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## Tyree Johnson (Jun 21, 2010)

maggie fraser said:


> I currently have two dogs Tyree, previous to these I had four dogs, 2x gsds, 2 x jrts, before going into a life history here. I purchased all as young puppies (at different times lol) and house trained all in the same way. An eight week old pup is toiletting outside on his own in under two weeks but usually one, he already has a good idea in a few days.
> 
> I don't ever get a pup until I am able to constantly supervise for one week, I have pup in the house and immediately prior to and post feeding he is taken outside to eliminate, as well as every couple of hours I take him outside. He is given a variety of toys and stuff to chew on and a bed to sleep in, I remove stuff up off the floor where he can get himself into trouble and I watch him like a hawk. When he picks up stuff, I immediately exchange it with him for one of his own toys and do this consistently until he knows his toys/items in the house are only for chewing....doesn't take long. I also confine him to one room in the house which I've prepared pup safe and included his bed, and leave him on his own for around an hour whilst I go out at the same time every day. All pups are thoroughly housetrained which lasts a life time.
> 
> The rest is just progression and management but generally consists of regular structured exercise and training....easy peasy! That won't be very attractive for lazy folks, but being a sharp, active person I enjoy a sharp, active dog. The more hyper the dog, the more you need to exercise in my opinion much the same as Debbie's post above. There's more in there obviously but that is the low down on how I housetrain a pup without a crate. I also don't take on a pup when I know I will be fully commited with my time, knowing I can take a few hours here and there until they are solid in the house. I'm intending to get another pup soon so I am planning out now a kennel/run scenario, and the time I can take to spend on the necessaries.



i pretty much do the same exact thing .... except my "confined to one room" is a crate ..... to me it protects my things and my dog from doing something stupid ..... i understand your argument but from your posts it seems you have never had a dog chew something up in the house and that you let them have full run of the house ... but the fact is you do confine them in the same way i do or others do, you just don't use a crate


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## Tyree Johnson (Jun 21, 2010)

Don Turnipseed said:


> It is easy to train a dog without a crate. I never use them and the dogs that come in the house are reliable. I left two in the house yesterday and was gone for six hours.....and these are wound up terriers. A lot of the problem I see is that your dogs are all born and raised indoors. That is where they live. Makes training them a lot more difficult. One method I see becoming much more common is Rimadyl. Much easier than training folks and you can have a high powered dog that fits your life style quietly and calmly.



don, why did you bring them in the house? how old are they, and were they confined to one room or full run of the house?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Tyree Johnson said:


> don, why did you bring them in the house? how old are they, and were they confined to one room or full run of the house?


Tyree, Jack was about 4 mo old when I brought him in. A room full of interesting things to chew on bears no resemblance to a crate. I watch them constantly or put them back outside. A crate will work for house breaking a dog but it won't teach them how to act proper. If the dogs want to be crazy, they go to the door and bark at me. I do have an advatage because the dogs were born and raised outside and have never had the oppotunity to pee in the house at any age. Confining them to a room is good because they see one room as their space and a good pup won't pee in his room. Small pup you take them out every 15 or 20 minutes. It really doesn't take long and my dogs, being raised outside, usually go to the door anyway. Oh, I brought Jack in to have someone to talk to that I could understand.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Tyree Johnson said:


> i pretty much do the same exact thing .... except my "confined to one room" is a crate ..... to me it protects my things and my dog from doing something stupid ..... i understand your argument but from your posts it seems you have never had a dog chew something up in the house and that you let them have full run of the house ... but the fact is you do confine them in the same way i do or others do, you just don't use a crate


My "confined to one room" is when they are very small left unsupervised in the learning phase, they then get full run of the house. I have found confining to one room as they get older can lend itself to destructive behaviour and on opening all the doors, that problem took care of itself.

In the early days I did experience chewed stuff, but as I became more experienced and savvy, I have experienced a lot less problems. My gsd has never destroyed anything other than taking a big chunk out of my jrt's bed, he'd gotten quite creative though...he arranged stuff as a youngster. He would take out lumps of coal from the coal shuttle and rearrange them on the floor, or would take shoes (I guess one at a time) and place them in pairs upstairs, stuff like that but no destruction and after being left quite a few hours. Leaving for much longer with a young dog is just asking for trouble.

So Tyree, it's not a fact that I confine mine like you do yours in a crate.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Tyree, were you not the same person who posted asking if it was ok to let your dog swim in water ? You ever had a dog before ?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I just have to ask one question. Tyree this will clear it up. Dog crates were not around much or in vogue a few years back when dogs were left in the house and they were all house broke. Millions of dogs have been house broke without a crate. Now, everyone thinks they have to have a crate to do it. Think about that.


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## Jack Roberts (Sep 5, 2008)

maggie fraser said:


> I currently have two dogs Tyree, previous to these I had four dogs, 2x gsds, 2 x jrts, before going into a life history here. I purchased all as young puppies (at different times lol) and house trained all in the same way. An eight week old pup is toiletting outside on his own in under two weeks but usually one, he already has a good idea in a few days.
> 
> I don't ever get a pup until I am able to constantly supervise for one week, I have pup in the house and immediately prior to and post feeding he is taken outside to eliminate, as well as every couple of hours I take him outside. He is given a variety of toys and stuff to chew on and a bed to sleep in, I remove stuff up off the floor where he can get himself into trouble and I watch him like a hawk. When he picks up stuff, I immediately exchange it with him for one of his own toys and do this consistently until he knows his toys/items in the house are only for chewing....doesn't take long. I also confine him to one room in the house which I've prepared pup safe and included his bed, and leave him on his own for around an hour whilst I go out at the same time every day. All pups are thoroughly housetrained which lasts a life time.
> 
> The rest is just progression and management but generally consists of regular structured exercise and training....easy peasy! That won't be very attractive for lazy folks, but being a sharp, active person I enjoy a sharp, active dog. The more hyper the dog, the more you need to exercise in my opinion much the same as Debbie's post above. There's more in there obviously but that is the low down on how I housetrain a pup without a crate. I also don't take on a pup when I know I will be fully commited with my time, knowing I can take a few hours here and there until they are solid in the house. I'm intending to get another pup soon so I am planning out now a kennel/run scenario, and the time I can take to spend on the necessaries.


It sounds like common sense training to me. This must be what people use to do before they used crates. 

I admit to using a crate at night with a young pup but the rest of the day they are out. 

I agree with Don about the dogs going outside. If the dogs are always outside urinating and defecating then they will go out there anyway. I would rather a litter be raised outside than inside. The dogs are more hardy and it is a natural environment. 

My goal is to not have a dog every make a mistake in the house. If they never go once, then it is set in their mind to not go in the house but outside.

I will try to pick the pups that are not loud and whining. Separation anxiety is a form of nerve weakness in my opinion.

Crates have become a crutch for many people. It is a lazy way to keep an animal. It is a training issue in my eyes when you have to crate an animal to keep them from tearing up your house.


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## Tyree Johnson (Jun 21, 2010)

maggie fraser said:


> Tyree, were you not the same person who posted asking if it was ok to let your dog swim in water ? You ever had a dog before ?


why yes , yes i was ..... we had dogs growing up .... dallas is my first personal dog..

dallas also was housebroken at 9 weeks ..... healthy as an ox ... chewed some things as a pup, but hasn't since ..... she'll be 3 on new years eve and listens pretty good! no vaccines and complete raw eater ...

also have a mutt here named onyx ..... the dog is housebroken because of me ... but other than that i don't pay any attention to it ... its the womans fofo dog ... stupid thing has weird bows and dumb haircuts ... oh and he hogs the bed ....

but as don has said ... maybe my dogs being raised in the house is the difference ... i don't know ... but what i do know is, the system i have in place works for me ...... my dog is not overly drivey ... but she loves to chew ... shed work a kong and rip pieces off of it ..... i just don't feel comfortable giving her a chance to ruin something ... or taking her to the vet and having a surgery because she ate something .....

plus when i say crated .... it not all day ... she doesn't even sleep in the crate anymore .... if i have a meeting or will be out for a couple of hours ... she gets locked up! hasn't killed her yet


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## Tanith Wheeler (Jun 5, 2009)

Crates have been 'popular' in the states for a lot longer than in the UK, so a lot of Brits still have issues with them.

I generally use one to house train a pup at night or if I have to pop out. I then use them at night until the 2nd chewing phase is over, then I leave the door open - if the pup chooses to sleep elsewhere I will eventually remove the crate, if the pup wants the crate I will let it keep it. When I go out gradually I will leave pup out of crate for a few minutes, increasing the time until I don't have to crate.


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