# Testing a new breed, Boz Shepherds.



## Brian Peckinpaugh

Hello Group,
It has been a long HOT SUMMER in Texas, and a long wait until weather cooled enough to be able to get my Boz Shepherds tested. The Boz Shepherds are new to this side of the world, and have not been tested for this type of work in the USA. They are utilized to some extent in Turkey for this. 

Although I felt they would have immediatley jumped into action, it seemed to puzzle them at first. Much socialization has been done to get them to accept crowds, and all types of people. This was their first testing, and the trainer was impressed. Two of the dogs were able to pull the sleeve from him several times.
It is still unclear if they have what it will take to function in this type of work, but I am encouraged by their first showing.
Below is a 18 month old female Geisha, and the other is a 1 year old male.


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## Peter Cavallaro

if they do commit to a bite i'm guessing it will be hard


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## Maren Bell Jones




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## Maren Bell Jones

Texas, eh? Maybe Dave and Ariel can make a side trip...


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## Dave Colborn

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Texas, eh? Maybe Dave and Ariel can make a side trip...



Sounds interesting.....lol


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## James Degale

They are still pups, as far as these type of breeds go LGAs, molossers and so forth. They only tend to mature up at 3+ years. My advice is to take things very slow. Do lots of prey work, happy stuff. Add in lots of control, good out, obedience during protection, off switch and so forth. Do NOT do any defense or threat stuff till much, much later. I'd bet these things are pretty stubborn and once you activate the defense key you will have lost the dog and all control will go out the window. It is not like a 60lbs Mali that you can pysically restrain. If I were you I'd keep up with loads and loads of socialisation if you want to go down the protection training route. If you just want to play around with this, then don't test them in any serious way till they are fully mature and stable with fully developed social behaviour. 

Hard to tell with pictures, any videos?


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## sam wilks

If I were you I would give up and get a different dog! Why do people continuously waste there time training dogs that can only be mediocre at best? Then when the dog doesn't work they end up paying some low life to scare the shit out of the dog and turn him into a fear biter!


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## Dave Colborn

Train what breed you like. Stay passsionate. My guess is the dog is already seeing defense from his body posture, but i could be wrong. I can almost hear the growling from a still picture. (am i right about that?) Stay with a good trainer. Dont get into discussions on whether they'll bite or not, just train and get them ready.


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## Dominic Rozzi

Dave Colborn said:


> Train what breed you like. Stay passsionate. My guess is the dog is already seeing defense from his body posture, but i could be wrong. I can almost hear the growling from a still picture. (am i right about that?) Stay with a good trainer. Dont get into discussions on whether they'll bite or not, just train and get them ready.


 
yeah agree with dave----find a good trainer someone your comfortable with and stay on a program and plan for the dog


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## Brian Anderson

sam wilks said:


> If I were you I would give up and get a different dog! Why do people continuously waste there time training dogs that can only be mediocre at best? Then when the dog doesn't work they end up paying some low life to scare the shit out of the dog and turn him into a fear biter!


Thats a hell of a statement to make from someone who has never even seen the dog. Because its not a mal or gsd doesn't mean it can't do the job. I guess next your going to say that the dog won't make a competent property/herd guardian because he is to big?? Or?


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## Peter Cavallaro

Brian + Sam + Ariel + Nicole = bite-fest 2


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## Bob Scott

Enjoy your dogs for what they are. I also agree about letting them mature before they see to much defense otherwise all you'll have is a nasty, out of control liability. 
Keep the training a game. If they seriously can do the job, they will.


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## Brian Anderson

Bob Scott said:


> Enjoy your dogs for what they are. I also agree about letting them mature before they see to much defense otherwise all you'll have is a nasty, out of control liability.
> Keep the training a game. If they seriously can do the job, they will.


Great words of wisdom and sound advice!


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## Joby Becker

sam wilks said:


> If I were you I would give up and get a different dog! Why do people continuously waste there time training dogs that can only be mediocre at best? Then when the dog doesn't work they end up paying some low life to scare the shit out of the dog and turn him into a fear biter!


or they are a number of the minority, and turn out fine, and are not scared..

I don't think the guy is looking to impress people with his training, or out to win any competitions. 

I think he is looking to see if the dogs are capable, in a more traditional function, and nothing more.

If I was to get into off-breeds, I would select and test and train for some type of of manwork, especially if it had a function (or stated function) as a guard/protective nature. I would cull hard and promote those traits in the breed...

A guy who is into Boz shepherds, and wants to test and train them, and is one of the first in the breed in this country, is an asset to any breed.

Just maybe if the dogs are actually capable of something, they can start off on the right foot, here.

I was involved in the Presa for a few years, in the beginning, the dogs were pretty strong...when they (the official breed stewards) finally focused on closing the books, and making the standard way too tight, in my humble opinion, the breed took a turn for the worst..

There still were/are a breeders/owners that did things with the dogs, but they are a minority.

The truth is I came across some very functional dogs from time to time, dogs that no sane person or animal should think about messing with, dogs that would wrestle steer to the ground...

sometimes I would go to training, and listen to everyone talk shit about how some of these breeds just suck, if the topic arose, from many people with marginal (on) breed dogs themselves...I would just think to myself how some of those dogs worked, and the FR guy that took a bite from a dog we were testing, and got 3 punctures on his upper and lower arm and a fractured elbow, and the look in the guys eyes, from one bite he took during a "test", of a nice 130 lb presa. He declined to take a second bite...I told him that he needed a thicker suit.

There are shytty dogs in every breed, some more than others..but to make blanket statements, shows some naivety.

In the case of the presa, the history and functions were mostly fairy tales, in regards to the main breeding trends in the dogs and the breed average, but there were people that bred dogs that were living embodiments of what they initially were supposed to be...I think with some of these breeds, there is a possibility of creating pools of dogs that are actually functional...and breeders work together and breed for functionality...

The history and descriptions of many breeds seems exaggerated, but aside from hype and BS, some of it is not all BS and hype. 

There are dogs out there that live up to the hype, not many but some...

There are good offbreed dogs if you are interested enough to seek them out. I don't know the OP, but maybe he can make a difference in his breed of choice.


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## Alison Grubb

Good luck with the dogs and let us know how it goes.
I say stick with the dogs you love and are passionate about, no matter what anyone else thinks. You may end up having to sort through more dogs and cull more dogs, but when you get that one...man it's an awesome feeling.


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## sam wilks

Not being naieve, just seen enough people that come out with their breed of choice and believe there dog will be an exception then end up so desperate to have a dog thatg bites that they go to someone who whips the shit out of their dog till he looks like a bad ass to people who don't know its not fair to the dog but they don't care cause it boosts their ego!


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## Brian Anderson

sam wilks said:


> Not being naieve, just seen enough people that come out with their breed of choice and believe there dog will be an exception then end up so desperate to have a dog thatg bites that they go to someone who whips the shit out of their dog till he looks like a bad ass to people who don't know its not fair to the dog but they don't care cause it boosts their ego!


Sam you are correct ( I see what you were getting at) that kinda shit happens wayyy to much. Good point!


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## Joby Becker

sam wilks said:


> Not being naieve, just seen enough people that come out with their breed of choice and believe there dog will be an exception then end up so desperate to have a dog thatg bites that they go to someone who whips the shit out of their dog till he looks like a bad ass to people who don't know its not fair to the dog but they don't care cause it boosts their ego!


I can also agree with this...regardless of the breeds.


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## Robby Richard

Just my opinion, but I think a good dog is where you find one ("good" being subjective). I don't think we can count out the off breeds, but one would expect to find more "good" dogs within certain lines of traditional breeds. Good luck with these dogs. I'd be interested in seeing a vid as well!


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## Brian Anderson

Robby Richard said:


> Just my opinion, but I think a good dog is where you find one ("good" being subjective). I don't think we can count out the off breeds, but one would expect to find more "good" dogs within certain lines of traditional breeds. Good luck with these dogs. I'd be interested in seeing a vid as well!


Excellent way to put it Robby.


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## Maren Bell Jones

sam wilks said:


> Not being naieve, just seen enough people that come out with their breed of choice and believe there dog will be an exception then end up so desperate to have a dog thatg bites that they go to someone who whips the shit out of their dog till he looks like a bad ass to people who don't know its not fair to the dog but they don't care cause it boosts their ego!


Yup. Seen it and it ain't pretty.


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## Brian Peckinpaugh

Thanks Brian and others. 

I was mainly wanting to have them tested to see if they had the potential for this type of work. And I agree, pushing them at this point would be bad. 

Since my knowledge is non-existant or very limited, I am going to follow the trainers advice. 

I will try to get some video of them. But would the work with them to get the video be to much at this age?


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## Peter Cavallaro

Brian - little known breed, owner admits too little or no experience, actually "knowledge is non-existant or very limited" *YES* it would be too much at this stage just my newb opinion.


real nice dogs BTW


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## Brian Peckinpaugh

Just to clarify, I would never have permitted the trainer to strike my dogs. Foremost, they are my pets, housedogs, Livestock Guardians. I would have packed up and left if he had struck one!

I admitted that my knowledge is not there, and recognize that I need a trainer to do all the work. When I first joined the forum, it was in search of someone to work with the dogs. They are primarily a Livestock guardian. I was just wanting to find out if they had the potential for this line of work. As I believe that to many breeds functionality is lost through pet or show breeding. 
















These dogs are full of love for the family, and their welfare is paramont.


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## Thomas Barriano

Brian

Did anyone ever say your decoy looks like the actor
Clarence Williams III from the Mod Squad?


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## Maren Bell Jones

Brian, it looks like your heart is in the right place. Looks like just from size alone, they would be a good deterrent. They look almost like lab/Malinois crosses...interesting. Good luck with your training and don't push too much too soon. :smile:


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## Peter Cavallaro

yeah glad yr not just another crazy pushin dogs around - you sound a cool guy.

BTW if i was into robbing folks houses and saw one of them bad boys in the front yard i would just try the neigbours house instead - just in case.


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## Bob Scott

"IF" the work is kept a prey game it wouldn't be to much for the dogs. That also depends on the trainer/helper having a good read on the dogs. For instance - The stare and walk straight into the dog (as I read in the pictures) can be very intimidating for some dogs young or old. That can be a direct challenge.
As others have said, the giant breeds can be super slow to mature.


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## Ben Thompson

She could break a coyotes spine with one bite. CRACK!!


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## rick smith

re: " Foremost, they are my pets, housedogs, Livestock Guardians."

then imo that is what they should stay and u should stop any further efforts to test and evaluate them for another job
- if you or anyone would want to develop a future "market" for this type of dog it will take years of a very careful breeding/selection/training program; which doesn't sound like what you have in mind
- imo getting the dogs to learn tug play and sleeve work w/out conflict would not necessarily indicate the breed is a potential PSD/PPD K9
- this very initial eval is really a long long way from being able to confirm the potential for what you are wondering about
- i would imagine this is already going on somewhere in the world, but how professionally it is being carried out is another matter

let some other breeders play frankenstein and keep these dogs happy the way they seem to be now


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## sam wilks

Pictures can be misleading but to me it already looks like ur dogs are already at soome level of avoidance which means even if everything is prey they don't want to be there this also means that u need to be very weary of the fact that if u ever did need those dogs to protect u at best they will probably nip the guy and stand there barking not trying to be discouragin just letting u know I could be wrong cause those are just pictures but that's what I see in the pictures! Like everyhone else said though they are a great deterrent


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## Dave Colborn

sam wilks said:


> Pictures can be misleading but to me it already looks like ur dogs are already at soome level of avoidance which means even if everything is prey they don't want to be there this also means that u need to be very weary of the fact that if u ever did need those dogs to protect u at best they will probably nip the guy and stand there barking not trying to be discouragin just letting u know I could be wrong cause those are just pictures but that's what I see in the pictures! Like everyhone else said though they are a great deterrent



Sam. Just out of curiosity, where do you see the avoidance ? I am assuming you mean pre avoidance (showing signs of being uncomfortable, etc) since you said some level, and not full blown. Just like to hear what you see about this pic. 

I'd actually like to work these dogs. I think a lot of people are way off the mark on no defense, or not until older, etc. 

I don't think there is enough knowledge about defense to fill a thimble on this thread, in general. Everyone acts like you turn a dog into Satan with defense, when in fact, you work them through defense when you take a nervous dog into a new area and help bring them through it you throw a ball bringing them out of defense (threat, discomfort) and into prey. The dogs that haven't seen defense, don't realize they can counter it. Seeing defense makes a stronger dog, period. 

There is a lot of ignorance to what defense is, I think.


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## Harry Keely

per Dave.C : I don't think there is enough knowledge about defense to fill a thimble on this thread, in general. Everyone acts like you turn a dog into Satan with defense, when in fact, you work them through defense when you take a nervous dog into a new area and help bring them through it you throw a ball bringing them out of defense (threat, discomfort) and into prey. The dogs that haven't seen defense, don't realize they can counter it. Seeing defense makes a stronger dog, period. 

There is a lot of ignorance to what defense is, I think.[/QUOTE]

Couldn't of said it any better myself Dave
+1 x 110% = :-k which then =  = :lol::lol::lol:


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## Brian Anderson

Dave Colborn said:


> Sam. Just out of curiosity, where do you see the avoidance ? I am assuming you mean pre avoidance (showing signs of being uncomfortable, etc) since you said some level, and not full blown. Just like to hear what you see about this pic.
> 
> I'd actually like to work these dogs. I think a lot of people are way off the mark on no defense, or not until older, etc.
> 
> I don't think there is enough knowledge about defense to fill a thimble on this thread, in general. Everyone acts like you turn a dog into Satan with defense, when in fact, you work them through defense when you take a nervous dog into a new area and help bring them through it you throw a ball bringing them out of defense (threat, discomfort) and into prey. The dogs that haven't seen defense, don't realize they can counter it. Seeing defense makes a stronger dog, period.
> 
> There is a lot of ignorance to what defense is, I think.


I agree with you and will add that there are lots of folks who cannot recognize defense. Much less know what to do with a dog IN DEFENSE.


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## Adam Swilling

Dave Colborn said:


> I don't think there is enough knowledge about defense to fill a thimble on this thread, in general. Everyone acts like you turn a dog into Satan with defense, when in fact, you work them through defense when you take a nervous dog into a new area and help bring them through it you throw a ball bringing them out of defense (threat, discomfort) and into prey. The dogs that haven't seen defense, don't realize they can counter it. Seeing defense makes a stronger dog, period.
> 
> There is a lot of ignorance to what defense is, I think.


Bravo!! Well put, Dave!=D>


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## Bob Scott

Brian Anderson said:


> I agree with you and will add that there are lots of folks who cannot recognize defense. Much less know what to do with a dog IN DEFENSE.



This is more in line with my comments on defense. 
To many just think about pressure on the dog to bring it out. Often done wrong and to early. 
I still believe to early alone can be a problem. 
Why do the Euro folks (as a rule) wait so long to work a dog in bite work?!


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## Brian Peckinpaugh

The statements about the dogs showing some level of "Avoidance" may not be to far from the truth. When first approached by the trainer, they were very much avoiding the man, barking and backing up. They would go toward him then back up.

Then when approached in 10-15 minutes, the more assertive dog came out. Especially in the 18 month old female. She was at the end of her cable tryint to get to him. Only time she came back to me was when he backed off, or she was bringing me the sleeve. 
And then agian, this was their first experience with a person acting strange and aggitating toward them. All of their socialization was toward accepting people, and the different situations. 

I would like to communicate with someone that would be interested in working with the breed. And to say that I should avoid trying to" set up a market, because it will take years of breeding and selecting". I am just trying to find out if they have the potential!!! They have thousands of years of breeding and selecting for Defense, Protection behaviors. Just want to find out if it is enough, or if they have some other traits that may prevent their usefulness.
I would like to learn more about the different behaviors for protection, but it seems like there are many opinions. 
The Boz Shepherds have a high Defense drive, and a Low Prey Drive. Wether that will make or break them is unknown. I just want to find different areas that they can work in, so they do not soften to much as house pets. I will try to continue to import TESTED dogs, but the selection has to also be here.


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## rick smith

fwiw, i was just saying that further testing of these two dogs will NOT be definitive of whether or not the Boz Shepeherd breed has what is needed to do what you are curious about; therefore i don't see a need to potentially add conflict to the socializing you are concentrating on for what these two dogs will be living out their lives doing
...can you build up confidence ? sure, in MANY ways ... but confidence for WHAT is what i'm asking ... 
nothing to do with adding some pressure and working the dog thru some defense issues


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## sam wilks

Dave, I see slack in the line and I see the dog turned sideways to the decoy. I also see him kinda crouched in one of the shots which I have seen defensive dogs do many times. Its hard to explain but its like they are trying to stay low and sneak in to get the bite. All that being said, they are just pictures and I could be completely wrong. Also I think defense is not necessarily a bad thing. It's just a question of how much. There are a lot of dogs that have so much prey they don't recognize a threat. What good is that when there is an actual threat and there is no outlet for their prey drive to kick in? Too much defense and they take everything as a threat and are scared of their own shadow and cant do their job. But if you have a moderate level of defense then they are able to see a threat and judge pretty accurately how serious the threat is. Match that with strong nerves and you have a dog that can come out with strong aggression and work through the threat if he is trained right! Look at that video of Vitor, He can work and do what is asked on the sport field, but is also strong and balanced enough to come out and show aggression on the man!


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## Joby Becker

sam wilks said:


> Dave, I see slack in the line and I see the dog turned sideways to the decoy. I also see him kinda crouched in one of the shots which I have seen defensive dogs do many times. Its hard to explain but its like they are trying to stay low and sneak in to get the bite. All that being said, they are just pictures and I could be completely wrong. Also I think defense is not necessarily a bad thing. It's just a question of how much. There are a lot of dogs that have so much prey they don't recognize a threat. What good is that when there is an actual threat and there is no outlet for their prey drive to kick in? Too much defense and they take everything as a threat and are scared of their own shadow and cant do their job. But if you have a moderate level of defense then they are able to see a threat and judge pretty accurately how serious the threat is. Match that with strong nerves and you have a dog that can come out with strong aggression and work through the threat if he is trained right! *Look at that video of Vitor, He can work and do what is asked on the sport field, but is also strong and balanced enough to come out and show aggression on the man!*


I agree, but dogs like these will never have a need to be on the sport field, or do things a sport dog is expected to do. You can still have dogs with very little prey, that have plenty of defense, that is tempered with strongish nerves, (enough to take on a threat and put up a good fight) that can work. They may not be pretty, but can be effective. A pissed off dog that wants to bite you for real, does not have to have as much prey, especially if extensive training, or competing is not a goal. 

I don't know what the dogs are "supposed to be" or what the OP's goals are..But if the goal is a territorial dog, that will kill unwanted animals, and 
deter or ward off unwanted tresspassers...high or even balanced prey is not necessary. The more prey the better in my opinion, but they might just not have that, or need it (for training purposes), depending on the function of the dogs...


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## Joby Becker

Joby Becker said:


> I agree, but dogs like these will never have a need to be on the sport field, or do things a sport dog is expected to do. You can still have dogs with very little prey, that have plenty of defense, that is tempered with strongish nerves, (enough to take on a threat and put up a good fight) that can work. They may not be pretty, but can be effective. A pissed off dog that wants to bite you for real, does not have to have as much prey, especially if extensive training, or competing is not a goal.
> 
> I don't know what the dogs are "supposed to be" or what the OP's goals are..But if the goal is a territorial dog, that will kill unwanted animals, and
> deter or ward off unwanted tresspassers...high or even balanced prey is not necessary. The more prey the better in my opinion, but they might just not have that, or need it (for training purposes), depending on the function of the dogs...


by prey, I mean level of prey that is coupled with a desire to interact with humans, presenting prey objects for them, for training purposes...


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## sam wilks

agreed joby, you are describing a very civil dog as I took it. The only shitty part about that is a dog like that is a very high liability!


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## Dave Colborn

sam wilks said:


> Dave, I see slack in the line and I see the dog turned sideways to the decoy. I also see him kinda crouched in one of the shots which I have seen defensive dogs do many times. Its hard to explain but its like they are trying to stay low and sneak in to get the bite. All that being said, they are just pictures and I could be completely wrong. Also I think defense is not necessarily a bad thing. It's just a question of how much. There are a lot of dogs that have so much prey they don't recognize a threat. What good is that when there is an actual threat and there is no outlet for their prey drive to kick in? Too much defense and they take everything as a threat and are scared of their own shadow and cant do their job. But if you have a moderate level of defense then they are able to see a threat and judge pretty accurately how serious the threat is. Match that with strong nerves and you have a dog that can come out with strong aggression and work through the threat if he is trained right! Look at that video of Vitor, He can work and do what is asked on the sport field, but is also strong and balanced enough to come out and show aggression on the man!



OK. So we both saw similar things, and we both realize that we could be wrong by pics. We agree defense is not a bad thing. A non classical prey dog (one that doesn't see threat in a man) in my opinion is very useful, when it is conditioned to bite on command. This defense that we are talking about is not displayed in this dog, he isn't scared. There is no drawback to having a dog wait to be told to bite in our litigious society. 

It sounds like we both want a moderate amount of prey and defense in a dog at least to make them useful. 

Where we divide (other than your original post where you told him to just give up) is talking about Vitor, whom I have only seen in video, and a dog that we haven't even even seen video of. Make a statement about this dog, not about Vitor. When you make a statement, you will realize that you don't know anything about the dog, and therefore can't compare him to vitor.


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## Joby Becker

sam wilks said:


> agreed joby, you are describing a very civil dog as I took it. The only shitty part about that is a dog like that is a very high liability!


I do not agree, it is possible that is what I am describing, but not what I meant to describe. I do not know what the breed is about, in character, breeding, or environment. Dogs have a variety of thresholds...

Since the side topic is Vitor, would you say that Vitor is not a very civil dog? I have never met him..so coudln't say...

but I imagine he could easily become a very high liability if put into the wrong hands, just speculating here. 

He might be, more civil, than 99.9% of all the Boz shepherds on the planet, maybe even more than 99% other dogs from LGD type breeds,hell maybe even more civil than most Dutch type dogs, which would be in my guess, pretty damn civil if that was the case.


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## sam wilks

Dave Colborn said:


> OK. So we both saw similar things, and we both realize that we could be wrong by pics. We agree defense is not a bad thing. A non classical prey dog (one that doesn't see threat in a man) in my opinion is very useful, when it is conditioned to bite on command. This defense that we are talking about is not displayed in this dog, he isn't scared. There is no drawback to having a dog wait to be told to bite in our litigious society.
> 
> It sounds like we both want a moderate amount of prey and defense in a dog at least to make them useful.
> 
> Where we divide (other than your original post where you told him to just give up) is talking about Vitor, whom I have only seen in video, and a dog that we haven't even even seen video of. Make a statement about this dog, not about Vitor. When you make a statement, you will realize that you don't know anything about the dog, and therefore can't compare him to vitor.


Dave have you ever owned a dog that is all prey and actually tried that? If you did I am surprised! I do agree that it is good to have a dog that waits to be told to bite unless it sees a threat. You are right I have not seen a video of this dog and I've only seen a video of Vitor as well. Are you that dumb that you think I was comparing the two of them. i believe it was pretty obvious that I was using Vitor as an example of a balanced dog. I really don't know if you are being confrontational or not but that was a dumb statement! 
Joby, don't know Vitor so couldn't really say. Will take a guess that Tim wouldn't want him running round the neighborhood:razz:


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## Dave Colborn

sam wilks said:


> Dave have you ever owned a dog that is all prey and actually tried that? If you did I am surprised! I do agree that it is good to have a dog that waits to be told to bite unless it sees a threat. You are right I have not seen a video of this dog and I've only seen a video of Vitor as well. Are you that dumb that you think I was comparing the two of them. i believe it was pretty obvious that I was using Vitor as an example of a balanced dog. I really don't know if you are being confrontational or not but that was a dumb statement!
> Joby, don't know Vitor so couldn't really say. Will take a guess that Tim wouldn't want him running round the neighborhood:razz:


I have worked a very prey high dog in the military. He didn't bark a lot, he would drool mainly. Some barking. It was questionable whether he felt threatened by a man in most cases. 

I worked closely with another while I was at Tarheel Canine. Meaning he bit me quite a few times in training. Little barking, lots of drooling. Teaching a prey high dog to bite someone that is passive, is a conditioned response. It is also a conditioned response to get a dog that is balanced to bite without equipment, or passive people. yes, some dogs lean towards this behavior and it doesn't take much training.

I re-read what you said about Vitor. You use him as an example of what you would like to see in a dog, in a thread of a dog you have never seen that you told the handler to quit on. Then you talk about him being strong and balanced showing a strong civil response with obvious training equipment and bitework going on. Equipment is always present. This isn't confrontational, this is me thinking you showed a dog in a thread that may not be what you think it is to compare to a second dog you may not know what it is. 

I like the video of Vitor, but assuming he is balanced from that could be erroneous. Could be he's highly defensive, and conditioned to bite a sleeve. Or he could be prey high and condtioned to bark at a whip or stick in the decoys hand. No bust on him either way, I just don't know the dog. Do you, Sam?

Dumb statement? I don't think so even after reading what you wrote again.


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## Brian Anderson

Sam the only way a civil dog is a greater liability is if he has not had any control put in him. My strongest most civil dogs are my most trusted dogs. Why? Because I have taught them that they WILL kick ass and win. The dogs have huge amounts of confidence which was there naturally and I built it from there. Saying that dogs because they are civil is a myth that is forever perpetuated by folks who don't think first or just don't know any different. Just my .02


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## sam wilks

Brian, was just talking about liability as compared to a more social dog. I've only had one very civil dog and I liked him but it wasn't as much fun because I always had to think one step ahead of him. But I do agree with you!
Dave, I don't want my dog to bite as a conditioned response when someone comes in after my family while I'm at work. I want my dog to bite because there is a threat towards my family and he understands that.
As far as vitor goes(can't believe ur still on that) in the video if I remember right even when the sleeve was taken out of sight he maintained focus on the man. Also I don't know vitor as I already said but have seen some of his other videos where he is training for ring. The point I was trying to make is he is capable of training for sport and can also show aggression towards the man. Maybe tim can tell u more on his bio just shoot him a pm. Also, first u told me I was comparing the two. Then I said I was not and then u agreed then again u told me I was comparing them. So which is it? I also never claimed he is my ideal dog though he does look very nice and I never called him civil. I don't mind discussing tghings but I don't appreciate people puttin words in my mouth and perverting the points I make. If u don't agree that's fine but don't get itg twisted.


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## Joby Becker

We have a difference in the meaning of civil I believe.

To me it means willingness to show aggression to, and quite possibly bite a person, regardless of equipment. 

It has to do with social aspects in some sense of it, crossing over to being capable of aggressing humans. But I do not think a dogs sociability really has a bearing on his "civil"ness. 

There are plenty of unsocial dogs that will not confidently bite a person, and there are plenty of social dogs that would have no issues biting a person.


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## Dave Colborn

> Dave, I don't want my dog to bite as a conditioned response when someone comes in after my family while I'm at work. I want my dog to bite because there is a threat towards my family and he understands that.


Bad idea. What does a threat look like? Does he wear a UPS uniform, an EMT outfit? All black, with sinister looking moustaches? I am here to tell you, I don't think they wear bite suits and carry sticks. Some may even be quiet and point a gun. Leave it to genetics though instead of training a stronger response into a dog...

Speaking of not putting words in mouths, I haven't changed my opinion of you comparing the two at all. You are comparing vitor with an untrained dog in my opinion. If you aren't, then you aren't. It sure sounds like it.

As far as you not calling him civil, what do you think "Showing aggression towards the man" means? 

I am not putting things in your mouth, you are saying things that you may not mean or we may define differently. Just keep talking, we'll see what each other means.

How about you PM Tim Stacy and ask him about his dog since you brought it up.

Oh, and do you think the Boz Shepherd could be a good home protector? Or should Brian still give up on his dog?


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## sam wilks

Give me a few min guys a lot of typing on my phone!


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## sam wilks

Joby I look at it as a dog having aggression towards the man. If there were a dog that came out of a police car and was ready to bite anyone besides his handler with aggression, I would say that is a civil dog. Dont disagree with you at all, I dont think#-o
Dave, I dont care what a threat looks like if he's in my house in the middle of the night! Would you care to define social aggression while we're at it. Why would I pm tim? Im not the one who keeps bringing this shit up! All I did was use a recent video of a dog coming forward with aggression as what I thought would be a simple example of what I was talking about. I never compared the two as I've already said, TWICE!!!! Lets change the question to would I have a boz protecting my home. No I would not!


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## Dave Colborn

sam wilks said:


> Joby I look at it as a dog having aggression towards the man. If there were a dog that came out of a police car and was ready to bite anyone besides his handler with aggression, I would say that is a civil dog. Dont disagree with you at all, I dont think#-o
> Dave, I dont care what a threat looks like if he's in my house in the middle of the night! Would you care to define social aggression while we're at it. Why would I pm tim? Im not the one who keeps bringing this shit up! All I did was use a recent video of a dog coming forward with aggression as what I thought would be a simple example of what I was talking about. I never compared the two as I've already said, TWICE!!!! Lets change the question to would I have a boz protecting my home. No I would not!



You can condition the dog to bite anyone at night, in the house, other than family. Conditioned. Much better than genetics alone.


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## Brian Anderson

Bad idea. What does a threat look like? Does he wear a UPS uniform, an EMT outfit? All black, with sinister looking moustaches? I am here to tell you, I don't think they wear bite suits and carry sticks. Some may even be quiet and point a gun. Leave it to genetics though instead of training a stronger response into a dog...

Thanks Dave!


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## Grant Cusworth

sam wilks said:


> If there were a dog that came out of a police car and was ready to bite anyone besides his handler with aggression, I would say that is a civil dog.



I'd call that a POS.


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## Matt Grosch

so "Boz Shepherd" is a new name for kangals/anatolians?


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## Matt Grosch

what good 'off breeds' have you seen? im asking because I havent heard of any that can (or actually) do anything


Joby Becker said:


> or they are a number of the minority, and turn out fine, and are not scared..
> 
> I don't think the guy is looking to impress people with his training, or out to win any competitions.
> 
> I think he is looking to see if the dogs are capable, in a more traditional function, and nothing more.
> 
> If I was to get into off-breeds, I would select and test and train for some type of of manwork, especially if it had a function (or stated function) as a guard/protective nature. I would cull hard and promote those traits in the breed...
> 
> A guy who is into Boz shepherds, and wants to test and train them, and is one of the first in the breed in this country, is an asset to any breed.
> 
> Just maybe if the dogs are actually capable of something, they can start off on the right foot, here.
> 
> I was involved in the Presa for a few years, in the beginning, the dogs were pretty strong...when they (the official breed stewards) finally focused on closing the books, and making the standard way too tight, in my humble opinion, the breed took a turn for the worst..
> 
> There still were/are a breeders/owners that did things with the dogs, but they are a minority.
> 
> The truth is I came across some very functional dogs from time to time, dogs that no sane person or animal should think about messing with, dogs that would wrestle steer to the ground...
> 
> sometimes I would go to training, and listen to everyone talk shit about how some of these breeds just suck, if the topic arose, from many people with marginal (on) breed dogs themselves...I would just think to myself how some of those dogs worked, and the FR guy that took a bite from a dog we were testing, and got 3 punctures on his upper and lower arm and a fractured elbow, and the look in the guys eyes, from one bite he took during a "test", of a nice 130 lb presa. He declined to take a second bite...I told him that he needed a thicker suit.
> 
> There are shytty dogs in every breed, some more than others..but to make blanket statements, shows some naivety.
> 
> In the case of the presa, the history and functions were mostly fairy tales, in regards to the main breeding trends in the dogs and the breed average, but there were people that bred dogs that were living embodiments of what they initially were supposed to be...I think with some of these breeds, there is a possibility of creating pools of dogs that are actually functional...and breeders work together and breed for functionality...
> 
> The history and descriptions of many breeds seems exaggerated, but aside from hype and BS, some of it is not all BS and hype.
> 
> There are dogs out there that live up to the hype, not many but some...
> 
> There are good offbreed dogs if you are interested enough to seek them out. I don't know the OP, but maybe he can make a difference in his breed of choice.


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## Joby Becker

Matt Grosch said:


> what good 'off breeds' have you seen? im asking because I havent heard of any that can (or actually) do anything


You need to get out more.... 

Not argumentative at all here just asking...

What qualifies as being able to or actually doing anything? What functions?

What is good to you?

Are you asking what good off breed BREEDS I have seen, as a whole, or individuals ? 

What is a good dog?

Good dogs are where you find them, to find them sometimes you have to go places where they might be, and look for them, sometimes those places are not very well known, and sometimes are unknown.


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## Dave Colborn

Matt Grosch said:


> what good 'off breeds' have you seen? im asking because I havent heard of any that can (or actually) do anything



Look at the news feed about the boxers doing Police work.

The thing with off breeds (just like mals and sheps) is that you have to test for what you want to get a dog that will do it


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## Ricardo Ashton

Matt Grosch said:


> so "Boz Shepherd" is a new name for kangals/anatolians?


I was thinking the EXACT SAME THING. These dogs look way too much like Kangals. But why say new breed?


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## Brian Peckinpaugh

Matt Grosch said:


> so "Boz Shepherd" is a new name for kangals/anatolians?


 
Matt, There are many Regional Breeds in Turkey, of the Landrace dogs. Certain areas with enough isolation, either physical or cultural, have developed types of dogs with enough different characteristics to be considered their own breed. 

The Boz Shepherd or Guregh (Mountain Name) developed in the remote Urfa Mountains (Northern stretches). The Youruk comes from the Southern stretches, and is thinner and has more hair. Kangals are mainly from the flatter Plateau areas. 

The Anatolian People (Which Turks consider an American breed of Mixed dogs), tend to want to clump all dogs from Turkey into one Breed. There is many regional breeds with their own personalities, temperments, abilities and physical characteristics. 

But if someone was the type to consider all smushed nose dogs Bulldogs, all Herding Shepherd types as German Shepherds, all big dogs as Mastiffs,,,,,, I guess they would also consider all the Turkish dogs as Anatolians.


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## Joby Becker

Brian Peckinpaugh said:


> Matt, There are many Regional Breeds in Turkey, of the Landrace dogs. Certain areas with enough isolation, either physical or cultural, have developed types of dogs with enough different characteristics to be considered their own breed.
> 
> The Boz Shepherd or Guregh (Mountain Name) developed in the remote Urfa Mountains (Northern stretches). The Youruk comes from the Southern stretches, and is thinner and has more hair. Kangals are mainly from the flatter Plateau areas.
> 
> The Anatolian People (Which Turks consider an American breed of Mixed dogs), tend to want to clump all dogs from Turkey into one Breed. There is many regional breeds with their own personalities, temperments, abilities and physical characteristics.
> 
> But if someone was the type to consider all smushed nose dogs Bulldogs, all Herding Shepherd types as German Shepherds, all big dogs as Mastiffs,,,,,, I guess they would also consider all the Turkish dogs as Anatolians.


What are the actual functions of the breed? Is there any standard? 

How did you get interested in these dogs, just curious...


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## Brian Peckinpaugh

The Function in the urfa Mountains is as a Livestock Guardian, and Family and Village Protector. They have a history of being tested frequently for their fighting ability,,, used to be able to select the best wolf killers.

I raise Kangals, and always admired the larger stronger pictures of the dogs in Turkey. And believe me, there is a big difference between the two breeds. Night and Day. 

Compared to the Kangal, the Boz is Larger, Stronger, Bigger Bones ans Skeleton, Larger feet (Mountain Characteristic), Stronger Temperament, Different shape Skull and Muzzle, Different shape and set eyes, shorter and thinner hair, and a natural ability to stay muscled and lean. 

There is a breed standard in Turkish. It is currently being translated for me to incorporate into a breed club.


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## Matt Grosch

what off breeds have you seen that are anywhere close to legit, that can do real work, that can compete, etc.... I contend there are not any (since I spent years looking into them, visiting breeders, etc before switching over to herding dogs)


Joby Becker said:


> You need to get out more....
> 
> Not argumentative at all here just asking...
> 
> What qualifies as being able to or actually doing anything? What functions?
> 
> What is good to you?
> 
> Are you asking what good off breed BREEDS I have seen, as a whole, or individuals ?
> 
> What is a good dog?
> 
> Good dogs are where you find them, to find them sometimes you have to go places where they might be, and look for them, sometimes those places are not very well known, and sometimes are unknown.


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## Matt Grosch

Dave Colborn said:


> Look at the news feed about the boxers doing Police work.
> 
> The thing with off breeds (just like mals and sheps) is that you have to test for what you want to get a dog that will do it


 because there are a couple boxers doing some type of work, that does not make them a good off breed since its all about %, the only way a dog can be "good" is it they perform with some consistency there was one cane corso and one dogo doing some type of police work, that does not make them a good off breed having to look over a handful of mals for a good working dog, vs looking over hundreds or thousands of boxers is the difference if you find a good off breed, its a fluke since they are not bred or developed for it, like finding a kung fu guy that can actually fight


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## Matt Grosch

doesnt look any different and they look the same size just google/image search kangals then do it for anatolians, they are indistinguishable doesnt seem to be any reason to call them another breed, unless its marketing if a mal from france and holland are both mals, these arent different breeds


Brian Peckinpaugh said:


> The Function in the urfa Mountains is as a Livestock Guardian, and Family and Village Protector. They have a history of being tested frequently for their fighting ability,,, used to be able to select the best wolf killers.
> 
> I raise Kangals, and always admired the larger stronger pictures of the dogs in Turkey. And believe me, there is a big difference between the two breeds. Night and Day.
> 
> Compared to the Kangal, the Boz is Larger, Stronger, Bigger Bones ans Skeleton, Larger feet (Mountain Characteristic), Stronger Temperament, Different shape Skull and Muzzle, Different shape and set eyes, shorter and thinner hair, and a natural ability to stay muscled and lean.
> 
> There is a breed standard in Turkish. It is currently being translated for me to incorporate into a breed club.


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## Matt Grosch

I read everything I can and follow all large dog breeds and Ive never heard of 'boz shepherd' before proof that its a new made up term, just google "boz shepherd" there is almost nothing that comes up, one breeder? logical conclusion is that its marketing for kangals, like calling pit bulls "american staffordshire terriers" they could be developed into slightly differing breeds, but they arent now no offense, they seem cool even though Id expect a dog that will deter but not protect, and a pain in the ass regarding dog aggression, they always seemed neat to me, usually come up with tosas when debating 'dogs that might beat a pitbull in a fight' (I went on a carnival cruise, fyi it felt like I was in walmart/the excalibur hotel the whole time, but some turkish doctor bred them and offered me a pup for free, there were times in the past I would have jumped at the chance, .....I was also suspicious that he would sell my body parts once I arrived at his home/compound)


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## Matt Grosch

looks like I googled your site good luck with your program


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## Brian Anderson

Matt they are there. I have some. Yes there are fewer by percentage. If you don't like the off breeds then don't get one really simple. Saying there aren't any "good" off breeds is a statement coming from bias or ignorance or both. Now saying that they aren't as good as a herder in most of the bite sports. I'd agree with that all day long. But because a dog isn't cut out for sport doesn't mean they aren't a good dog. 

"good" is a subjective term. If I want a family dog that will also scare away the bad guy and they fill that role then its a good dog.


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## Brian Anderson

Matt while Im still spewing blather I should add that the off breeds that live with me are selected and purpose bred. They are not a shot in the dark or a cross your fingers and hope for the best proposition.


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## Joby Becker

Brian Anderson said:


> Matt they are there. I have some. Yes there are fewer by percentage. If you don't like the off breeds then don't get one really simple. Saying there aren't any "good" off breeds is a statement coming from bias or ignorance or both. Now saying that they aren't as good as a herder in most of the bite sports. I'd agree with that all day long. But because a dog isn't cut out for sport doesn't mean they aren't a good dog.
> 
> "good" is a subjective term. If I want a family dog that will also *scare away* the bad guy and they fill that role then its a good dog.


???


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## Brian Anderson

Joby Becker said:


> ???


what? lol


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## Brian Anderson

Joby my point AGAIN lol.... I invite anyone to come to my property and tell the boerboel he isn't a good dog. He is great for what he is intended for. It's not complicated really its not. Is he a sport dog? hell no he is knock down dog lol


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## Joby Becker

Brian Anderson said:


> Joby my point AGAIN lol.... I invite anyone to come to my property and tell the boerboel he isn't a good dog. He is great for what he is intended for. It's not complicated really its not. Is he a sport dog? hell no he is knock down dog lol


I was just addressing the part about *ONLY* scaring the bad guy away. scarring would fine too...


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## Matt Grosch

sorry, but thats not true of course there are exceptions and you can find examples here and there of dogs from poor working breeds that will do well, if you saw an AKC showline GSD does that make them good working dogs? If you find a (insert random bandog here) that works does that mean that its a "good" off breed? Of course not, it means that breed is generally worthless but you found an exception. there are no good off breeds, largely because they arent bred for it


Brian Anderson said:


> Matt they are there. I have some. Yes there are fewer by percentage. If you don't like the off breeds then don't get one really simple. Saying there aren't any "good" off breeds is a statement coming from bias or ignorance or both. Now saying that they aren't as good as a herder in most of the bite sports. I'd agree with that all day long. But because a dog isn't cut out for sport doesn't mean they aren't a good dog.
> 
> "good" is a subjective term. If I want a family dog that will also scare away the bad guy and they fill that role then its a good dog.


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## Matt Grosch

Brian Anderson said:


> Matt while Im still spewing blather I should add that the off breeds that live with me are selected and purpose bred. They are not a shot in the dark or a cross your fingers and hope for the best proposition.


 please explain, unless you did something like got pic pups from redstar off canario and turco (spl?) a few years back, and then seriously tested those dogs, and somehow they both were good working dogs and you bred them, how is it possible that you got a dog that will work (exception) from parents that would work (exception) im not saying its impossible, just a long shot


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## Matt Grosch

dude, you are living in denial... first, "good" is not a subjective term. We are all talking about working dogs and just like the test that just happened with don dale's, its highly likely your BB would not pass any test. If it would get run, then its not a good dog, its a terrible dog. The fact that it will bark, like a lab would, doesnt cut it. and when you say he is good for what he is intended for, did you buy him with the purpose of getting a dog that would look scary but fold under the pressure if any real threat came? I take a personal issue in this stuff, I spent years researching the heck out of all the bull-breeds, and was pretty disallusioned when I realized it was all BS, like a kid finding out santa wasnt real Second, how many people are really work there BB's? I recently talked to a breeder in AZ (coincidentally, they have a farm and I was going to buy pygmy goat for my nephew), and she told me there is a divide in the BB community about whether you should train them at all, lest it hurt their natural protective instincts. Last I heard the only BB breeder doing much was Harris out of Kansas (something like that) Im not blaming you, I went through two bullies before I wised up and got a shepherd


Brian Anderson said:


> Joby my point AGAIN lol.... I invite anyone to come to my property and tell the boerboel he isn't a good dog. He is great for what he is intended for. It's not complicated really its not. Is he a sport dog? hell no he is knock down dog lol


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## Joby Becker

*Re: Testing a newhttp://www.ebay.com/ breed, Boz Shepherds.*



Matt Grosch said:


> please explain, unless you did something like got pic pups from redstar off canario and turco (spl?) a few years back, and then seriously tested those dogs, and somehow they both were good working dogs and you bred them, how is it possible that you got a dog that will work (exception) from parents that would work (exception) im not saying its impossible, just a long shot


That is a pretty stupid thing to say, and I do have respect for you...You do not know Brian's Boerboel or Brian...or how much training his dog has, I do not know anyone with "working" off breed type dogs, that is as naive about this stuff as Don is. All of the ones I encounter actually do test and train their stock...

those dogs you are talking about are Presa's. Turco was never confirmed as a true presa by the Spanish, but was a good enough "working" dog type for the breed in my opinion... I have personally fought Turco in a muzzle before.

Do you really think that Turco and Canario were the only good dogs back then? You ever see any of the stock that Pete Curley, Bill Jarivs and others imported? When I first visited Alex at Redstar, he had 3 dogs...Turco, Bengal, and Cotan. There were others who had been importing strong dogs, for years before Alex started buying Presa. I co-owned a bitch out of Turco.

I was much more fond of Cona personally.

There are breeders all over that had/have dogs as good as those dogs were.

It all goes back to the question of what is a "working" off breed? 

As far as Turco goes, the only official "work" he did was kill a bunch of dogs, and bite a few guys, in Russia. 

Canario was a working dog? right? or no...
The most Canario did "officially" was pass a couple of TT and aptitude tests. 

I think for an off breed, the word "work" is not clearly defined. Take Turco...Was he a police dog? no, was he a sport dog? no....neither was Canario, yet you seem to think they were working dogs. 

DO you think that Alex or Redstar is the only breeder of working type Presa? That they had the only good dogs? I am here to say they are/ were not...Alex's marketing campaign was to NOT purchase dogs from the US, and to make sure everyone thought all the US dogs sucked, and he got the only good dogs in the Islands and on the Mainland.

The truth is he got Turco from a security dog kennel in Germany, and that the German's had been importing working Presa type dogs, well before they hit the states.

DO you think it could be possible that in the presa and other off-breeds, that there are breeders that do test their stock, and work them?? 

Believe it or not, Showstoppers produced a fair amount of good dogs. 

A friend of mine got a son off of Tono, named Donte, that dog produced a fair number of good dogs, and some of those dogs were some of the most solid dogs I have seen to this day. Nerves of steel, high prey, no fear, huge bites, and pain thresholds/tolerances that were out of this world. 

As far as Boerboels go, I tested the first 4 Boerboels that hit the OFA database, a long time ago..2000 or so...A friend of mine imported them. They were good dogs too, he was concerned with Hip and Elbow evals, and Strong Character, and functionality. 

Matt, if I wanted to get a good Boerboel, Presa, Agrentino Dogo, Cane Corso, AB, APBT, Alapaha Bulldog, Olde type bulldog, Fila, Tosa, Bandog, Boxer, Airedale, Ca De Bou, Alano, Bully Kutta, Kangal or whatever else, I could get one, I could even get one out of working parents, depending on what you consider "work".

I bought presa from a guy that used them to bring down steer, fight other dogs, and doubled as guard dogs in rural Spain...and another from a guy that used them as guard dogs, and fighting dogs. 

All of those dogs were very capable in manwork, as were the pups I did produce...

For the breed, back then, I would say that I bought from "working" stock. If I was purchasing dogs of that breed again, I might start looking in different places now, since more are being trained...
De La Arena, and J7 seem to have some dogs worth looking at...

It all goes back to what is work. And what is work for an offbreed? Can you define it for me...

If you are using Turco and Canario, as examples of "working" offbreed dogs, then there certainly plenty of others out there, of many breeds...

Like I said they are not the norm, and you say they are the exception...the good dogs...but where we differ is you seem to think the "exception" rule not only applies to the average, but to the entire population, which is not true. It is common that people are breeding these working type off breed dogs, and producing these working type dogs, well not really common, but common enough that if you actually do some research, are willing to put some effort into it, and are willing to move dogs that do not work out, you can find them.

How many of those BS PP competitions have you been to? I have been to a shit ton of them, and have come across some great off breed dogs, that if put into hands that were more skilled, or more motivated to compete in sport, that would do fine in them, and many more that were very well suited for other things.


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## Joby Becker

almost any dog can be ran by someone, off breed or not that is why people that are knowledgable do not pick fights for their dogs. 

There are some off breed dogs that will not be ran easily and will seriously mess someone up, just like the "on" breeds...

I have a friend that crosses Dobies and APBT. He has produced some good dogs, dogs that you would not want to fight, unless you were full suited, and his foundation dobes were not even that great of dogs..

The point is a good dog is where you find it, the genetics are floating around, maybe in families, small pockets, or individual dogs. I have seen plenty of good dogs that did not come down from 2 bonafide proven working parents, or from dogs that most people have never heard of..not everyone is out hanging with the sport dog people, or trying to make a name for themselves that way...


----------



## Nicole Stark

Interesting to see you mention Pete Curley in this Joby. You probably know that he spent some time in Dogues as well in the 80s. His "line" (specifically the unknown du Bodscav dogs) is what my DDB bitch is bred off of and then back into within a separate program 20 years later.

I never followed what he did much after he left the states but I believe was responsible for some of the first Dogues brought into Australia as well.


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## Joby Becker

Nicole Stark said:


> Interesting to see you mention Pete Curley in this Joby. You probably know that he spent some time in Dogues as well in the 80s. His "line" (specifically the unknown du Bodscav dogs) is what my DDB bitch is bred off of and then back into within a separate program 20 years later.
> 
> I never followed what he did much after he left the states but I believe was responsible for some of the first Dogues brought into Australia as well.


Well I imagine that the Dogues Pete brought in were good ones, probably some of the best around. I do/did not know him personally, but knew people who had gotten dogs from him, back then, at least with the presas, the stock was tested and the dogs were of strong character.


----------



## Brian Anderson

Matt Grosch said:


> dude, you are living in denial... first, "good" is not a subjective term. We are all talking about working dogs and just like the test that just happened with don dale's, its highly likely your BB would not pass any test. If it would get run, then its not a good dog, its a terrible dog. The fact that it will bark, like a lab would, doesnt cut it. and when you say he is good for what he is intended for, did you buy him with the purpose of getting a dog that would look scary but fold under the pressure if any real threat came? I take a personal issue in this stuff, I spent years researching the heck out of all the bull-breeds, and was pretty disallusioned when I realized it was all BS, like a kid finding out santa wasnt real Second, how many people are really work there BB's? I recently talked to a breeder in AZ (coincidentally, they have a farm and I was going to buy pygmy goat for my nephew), and she told me there is a divide in the BB community about whether you should train them at all, lest it hurt their natural protective instincts. Last I heard the only BB breeder doing much was Harris out of Kansas (something like that) Im not blaming you, I went through two bullies before I wised up and got a shepherd


Matt I am not in denial ... good is a subjective term is he good at what? its a working dog right? working dogs do all kinds of jobs. The boerboels I own were bred by Harris and he is a friend of mine. I assure you I can test a dog. You stated there were NO GOOD off breeds. Maybe not for what you want to do with them. I would never advise anyone to do bite sports with a boerboel. The mollosor group of dogs are not the dogs for sport in my view plain and simple. I have both herders and mollosor dogs. I enjoy them both. ALL of my dogs are selectively bred dogs for a purpose from proven dogs including the boerboels. While you were spending years "researching" these dogs I was raising them and learning about them. Maybe you wouldn't be so disallusioned if you had actually tried a few on for size instead of reading about them. Don't believe all you read brother. Just some good sound advice from someone who actually owns and trains them. Most of the boerboels are piss poor. Do some more research and find out why. When you want to test drive a really nice boerboel ...seriously your always welcome I have a couple of them. I promise he wont go backwards  (just be ready)


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## Brian Anderson

Matt Grosch said:


> please explain, unless you did something like got pic pups from redstar off canario and turco (spl?) a few years back, and then seriously tested those dogs, and somehow they both were good working dogs and you bred them, how is it possible that you got a dog that will work (exception) from parents that would work (exception) im not saying its impossible, just a long shot


Matt Mark and Irena have moved away from promoting those dogs for sport. Wanna know more call Mark he will explain it to you. 

It was possible for me to get good working dogs the same way you get any good dog lol. They are produced by proven dogs. Its not a long shot at all if you know the dogs.


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## Joby Becker

no message....


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## Peter Cavallaro

Matt Grosch said:


> *dude, you are living in denial...* first, *"good" is not a subjective term*. We are all talking about working dogs and just like the test that just happened with don dale's, its highly likely your BB would not pass any test. If it would get run, *then its not a good dog, its a terrible dog*.


Matt i refer you to the index of the WDF ... it appears the forum owners missed the memo that working dogs is a term exclusive to bite sports and PPD's.

you are not in denial you are living in a long narrow tunnel, with *thick* walls.

sheesh, do you require it explained in a simple step by step manner??

get out a bit dude have a look around, there's a whole world out there.


----------



## Joby Becker

> Originally Posted by Matt Grosch
> 
> 
> dude, you are living in denial... first, "good" is not a subjective term. We are all talking about working dogs and just like the test that just happened with don dale's, its highly likely your BB would not pass any test. If it would get run, then its not a good dog, its a terrible dog.


I do not know of any breeder of "working" dogs of any breed geared towards manwork, that would get ran on the test that Don's dale got tested in.."working" dog folks at least are testing and doing some kind of training...I am not saying that Dave could not run the dogs, but he would have to dig a little deeper than that, and use some other techniques. If they did run from that, I would agree they are would be terrible dogs.


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## Matt Grosch

"Most of the boerboels are piss poor. " um, that means you agree with me, BB's are not a good off breed, but there are good exceptions within this breed (and you did notice that I said harris was the guy that had the rep for trying to actually do something with them?) you guys are arguing for the sake of arguing, if you cant go find people doing work (and proving it, it they arent competing they have nothing but talk) and get a pup with at least a 50% chance of being able to do work, then it obviously is not a good breed, and good dogs within it are exceptions


Brian Anderson said:


> Matt I am not in denial ... good is a subjective term is he good at what? its a working dog right? working dogs do all kinds of jobs. The boerboels I own were bred by Harris and he is a friend of mine. I assure you I can test a dog. You stated there were NO GOOD off breeds. Maybe not for what you want to do with them. I would never advise anyone to do bite sports with a boerboel. The mollosor group of dogs are not the dogs for sport in my view plain and simple. I have both herders and mollosor dogs. I enjoy them both. ALL of my dogs are selectively bred dogs for a purpose from proven dogs including the boerboels. While you were spending years "researching" these dogs I was raising them and learning about them. Maybe you wouldn't be so disallusioned if you had actually tried a few on for size instead of reading about them. Don't believe all you read brother. Just some good sound advice from someone who actually owns and trains them. Most of the boerboels are piss poor. Do some more research and find out why. When you want to test drive a really nice boerboel ...seriously your always welcome I have a couple of them. I promise he wont go backwards  (just be ready)


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## Matt Grosch

dont try to play games, obviously we are talking about protection/bite dogs, not bird dogs, thats what people come to this forum for and thats whats being discussed on this thread, did you notice in the pics and original post that it was all about bite work and thats what is being discussed?


Peter Cavallaro said:


> Matt i refer you to the index of the WDF ... it appears the forum owners missed the memo that working dogs is a term exclusive to bite sports and PPD's.
> 
> you are not in denial you are living in a long narrow tunnel, with *thick* walls.
> 
> sheesh, do you require it explained in a simple step by step manner??
> 
> get out a bit dude have a look around, there's a whole world out there.


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

bite sports is not the only reason people come to this forum - not the way i read your post either, refer to bits in bold, seems clear, but i was not assuming what you meant i took the literal interpretation. apologies if you meant otherwise.


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## Bob Scott

Matt Grosch said:


> please explain, unless you did something like got pic pups from redstar off canario and turco (spl?) a few years back, and then seriously tested those dogs, and somehow they both were good working dogs and you bred them, how is it possible that you got a dog that will work (exception) from parents that would work (exception) im not saying its impossible, just a long shot



I know the lady that owned Canario in his later years. Never saw him tested but....that dog would bite! :lol:


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## Joby Becker

Bob Scott said:


> I know the lady that owned Canario in his later years. Never saw him tested but....that dog would bite! :lol:


Canario was a nice dog as well...had a big giant old melon too...


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## Bob Scott

Joby Becker said:


> Canario was a nice dog as well...had a big giant old melon too...



BIG melon! :lol:


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## rick smith

to the "OP Bob"
.... please clarify
are you testing the dogs or training them ?
by you responses, especially about the waiting til they mature part, i see it as training, but maybe you have another meaning of testing than i do ?

takes a day to test a dog imo
and sure you can then REtest a year later .. in another day

you can test em all you want and you can even keep "testing" all the way up to competing and then even getting a title for both of em 
- which in reality will mean someone else will be doing the testing and training, so that will be their accomplishment not yours :-(
- but does that convince the world the Boz shepherd has the potential and should be bred for a different purpose ?
No
it means you titled two good dogs


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## Joby Becker

Matt Grosch said:


> "Most of the boerboels are piss poor. " um, that means you agree with me, BB's are not a good off breed, but there are good exceptions within this breed (and you did notice that I said harris was the guy that had the rep for trying to actually do something with them?) you guys are arguing for the sake of arguing, if you cant go find people doing work (and proving it, it they arent competing they have nothing but talk) and get a pup with at least a 50% chance of being able to do work, then it obviously is not a good breed, and good dogs within it are exceptions


Gotcha now...I see the point you are making. Now that you explain it that way. 

I agree that there are NO off breeds that are gonna be able to do good work, AND pass tough "testing" (whether they will get ran or not) with a majority of the breed population. 

I would also put the GSD, and possibly the Mal in that category, as a breed, if you look at the entire breed population. That is why police quality dogs are not the norm, even in herders.

I do not agree with some of your statements. Though.

You seem to go back and forth with competing, meaning something, doing bitework meaning something and getting ran in a test meaning something...Those things are really all quite different.

You named 2 dogs that you seem to think were good enough working dogs, that never competed in anything. By your logic, Turco and Canario, did nothing, and their owners did nothing but talk.

You basically flat out said Brian's dogs would be ran just like Don's, I am prepared to place a wager on that, loser pays Dave for his time, who is gonna fly Dave down there??  LOL

I do get what you are saying, on the whole, but the specifics of what you are saying is really fuzzy in regards to a few things. Bitework does not equal competing in sport, training and competing in sport does not equal a dog getting tested for character and heart in the face of a threat, and there are plenty of people that do not have an interest in competing in organized sports, that are doing more than just talking.

A dog's capabilities and genetics do not disappear because a person does not compete...proving something does not always mean competing in a sport.

By your logic, many people are just talkers, because they don't compete, and their dogs must suck as well because they have not proven anything. And that is not a good way to judge a dog or a breed. I wonder how many dogs competing in sports are the real deal? 

I also agree that the Boz Shepherd is not a breed I would go to, if looking for a capable dog, but do commend the guy for doing something with his dogs. 

I am now on the herder bandwagon, and agree that the good herders are better and more easily found that off breed dogs. 

I have not competed in any organized sport, I believe I have a good dog, as does almost everyone who has seen her work, or has personally worked her. Most of my dogs training has been done with police, in the same fashion the police are training their dogs. Some have tried to buy the dog, and a couple have admitted that she is a better dog than most of their departments dogs for that type of work. I tell people I have a good dog, not the greatest but good. I don't think anyone who has worked the dog would say I am just talking...regardless of the dog's breed..I have owned a lot of good dogs in my opinion, and in the opinion of the people that knew the dogs, and worked them. Even if you do not know any of those people, and the dogs are not titled.

If I am working a dog, or seriously testing a dog, competition in sport, has absolutely no bearing on whether that dog can work, or can pass a character and temperament test. The genetics of the dog does. 

I wonder what percentage of herder breed population will get ran in a serious test? I would bet it is a high percentage as well.

I do agree, herders are by far a safer bet, and the chances of getting a good dog are much better with some research.


----------



## Ben Thompson

I am not sure that alot of the old breeds and rare and ancient breeds of dogs were ever tested the way people on here would demand from a dog. For example the GSD's have schutzhund the malinois have french ring the dutch shepherds KNPV. I don't think BoerBoel or any mastiffs had anything like that to test their ability. 

With the livestock guardian breeds as long as they stop a predator from attacking the flock or herd they did their job 100% IMO.


----------



## Brian Anderson

the herder vs off breed debate has been raging since the late 70's when I got into these dogs. Im sure it goes back further than that. But to me its just something to talk about. Because in the end everyone has dogs for different reasons. The mollosor group as has been said before are dogs that were bred for many years and had a practical job to do. The process of selection was a natural one. Simple if the dog didn't get it done then he didnt eat and he damn sure wasn't used in a breeding program. Unfortunately for the dogs most if not all of those tasks went the way of the buggy whip. So that leaves a lot of dogs without a practical purpose and that selection process is now done largely by "show" and "conformation". We all know the inevitable end of that. Now with that said there are still some hardcore devoted people who actually test and work those dogs in their original role. Those folks are usually off the radar and not out there promoting dogs. Because there true interest is in producing solid working dogs. The problem they have is a limited or non existent foundation of proven working dogs to start with. But they are there in most of the off breeds. 

My point to Matt is not to argue who has the biggest baddest dog. My point is that it's not correct to say there are NO good off breeds. That simply isn't true. Matt is correct in a lot of what he says. There are not nearly the availability of off breeds who can actually do a job as there are in the herders. The herders have been managed and selected with a lot more focus on the working ability and balance than the others. Even within the herders there are tons of dogs that simply aren't what they once were. 

The truth behind the boerboels I have is that I waited over 2 years for a litter that produced the kind of dog I was looking for. Within that litter there were 2 nice working prospects and 2 that were not in the case of the male dog. The female dog had a higher percentage of drivey working type dogs. The dogs I have are very atypical for the breed. High prey drive, a bit of civil discord, high working drives (want to do something). They are actually not proper boerboels in that the prey drive is higher than one would typically want in a pasture type dog. Why are there not more of this kind of dog within these breeds? One of the main reasons is. A breeder starts producing high numbers of highly driven 155# dogs that don't have a problem biting people and being surley and all the rest. You don't have nearly enough people who can handle the dogs and they inevitably they wind up in shelters and or worse or coming back to the breeder. I could go on and on. But hopefully this explains where I am coming from. 

I'm 50 years old and past all the chest bumping and pissing contests. I did invite Matt down and he is welcome to come down and see a few examples of dogs that still have that spark from the past. Why? because they are cool dogs and something a little "different" than what you typically see. I don't have anything to prove to anyone. I am in dogs for fun and its my passion. some people like golf and some like hunting or whatever. I enjoy the dogs and training them always have and always will. I have had way to many dogs humble me after talking shit about them. I learned my lesson the hard way lol.


----------



## Matt Grosch

A lot of points to respond to. generally, yes it all comes down to your % of things panning out with a pup, and although bandog and GSD breeders have both told me ALL their pups will (so apparently its your fault if they dont), we all know that isnt true. But if you get a pup from something like good/proven KNPV parents/lines your chance is much higher than if you get a BB pup from a breeder that may not even believe they should be trained lest it dampen all their 'natural protective instincts'. I thought the fact they we all know this is what brought everyone to this site, as opposed to bandog banter/etc. It all seems pretty strait forward. There are exceptions on both ends but if you want a gun that will work you get a glock, if you want a car that will start you get a honda or toyota, if you want a dog that will actually bite you get a mal or maybe a GSD... you would probably agree that after herders you have the second tier working dogs including rotties and when people want to get into bullies you have the (right) pitbull and AB, generally everything else is pretty questionable after that and since you cant rely on on off breed to pan out, no one that cares about results, as opposed to novelty, will gamble their time and money on one I spent years talking to redstar then CG, Lucero/Stock, etc and bought into the BS about them being the "ultimate protection dogs", I blame those damn semencic books.... so you have the place where you get your dog as an issue on the front end, then you have what you do with it afterwards as the second part if you arent working your dog with a trainer to make sure it actually does what its supposed to, then you dont really care if your dog will bite, then if you ever breed you have to take all that into account......so I guess its a big picture, past present and future if you care about results you will have a glock (or other reliable dog) as opposed to a taurus judge/etc, you will have a toyota/honda (not a 70's Ferrari), you will practice boxing and wrestling not kung fu, and you will have a herder not a bandog (usually combined with the belief that they are old and not a recent creation) About brian's dogs my presa comment was saying that even with the exotic off breeds there could be some people trying to actually do something productive with them, and I mentioned them as an exception, and specifically mentioned brian's breeder as an exception for BB's, and instead of saying "I got a presa/BB/etc so now I have a natural, super, guard dog" they are at least saying "im getting this exotic/novelty breed from someone that is trying to do something with them" I wouldnt bet on them after a few generations of whatever testing/breeding/development they are doing, but will admit people like Harris/etc at least seem to care enough to be heading in the right direction, even if they are on step two vs something like the knpv program that looks to be on step two hundred


Joby Becker said:


> Gotcha now...I see the point you are making. Now that you explain it that way.
> 
> I agree that there are NO off breeds that are gonna be able to do good work, AND pass tough "testing" (whether they will get ran or not) with a majority of the breed population.
> 
> I would also put the GSD, and possibly the Mal in that category, as a breed, if you look at the entire breed population. That is why police quality dogs are not the norm, even in herders.
> 
> I do not agree with some of your statements. Though.
> 
> You seem to go back and forth with competing, meaning something, doing bitework meaning something and getting ran in a test meaning something...Those things are really all quite different.
> 
> You named 2 dogs that you seem to think were good enough working dogs, that never competed in anything. By your logic, Turco and Canario, did nothing, and their owners did nothing but talk.
> 
> You basically flat out said Brian's dogs would be ran just like Don's, I am prepared to place a wager on that, loser pays Dave for his time, who is gonna fly Dave down there??  LOL
> 
> I do get what you are saying, on the whole, but the specifics of what you are saying is really fuzzy in regards to a few things. Bitework does not equal competing in sport, training and competing in sport does not equal a dog getting tested for character and heart in the face of a threat, and there are plenty of people that do not have an interest in competing in organized sports, that are doing more than just talking.
> 
> A dog's capabilities and genetics do not disappear because a person does not compete...proving something does not always mean competing in a sport.
> 
> By your logic, many people are just talkers, because they don't compete, and their dogs must suck as well because they have not proven anything. And that is not a good way to judge a dog or a breed. I wonder how many dogs competing in sports are the real deal?
> 
> I also agree that the Boz Shepherd is not a breed I would go to, if looking for a capable dog, but do commend the guy for doing something with his dogs.
> 
> I am now on the herder bandwagon, and agree that the good herders are better and more easily found that off breed dogs.
> 
> I have not competed in any organized sport, I believe I have a good dog, as does almost everyone who has seen her work, or has personally worked her. Most of my dogs training has been done with police, in the same fashion the police are training their dogs. Some have tried to buy the dog, and a couple have admitted that she is a better dog than most of their departments dogs for that type of work. I tell people I have a good dog, not the greatest but good. I don't think anyone who has worked the dog would say I am just talking...regardless of the dog's breed..I have owned a lot of good dogs in my opinion, and in the opinion of the people that knew the dogs, and worked them. Even if you do not know any of those people, and the dogs are not titled.
> 
> If I am working a dog, or seriously testing a dog, competition in sport, has absolutely no bearing on whether that dog can work, or can pass a character and temperament test. The genetics of the dog does.
> 
> I wonder what percentage of herder breed population will get ran in a serious test? I would bet it is a high percentage as well.
> 
> I do agree, herders are by far a safer bet, and the chances of getting a good dog are much better with some research.


----------



## Matt Grosch

Ben Thompson said:


> I am not sure that alot of the old breeds and rare and ancient breeds of dogs were ever tested the way people on here would demand from a dog. For example the GSD's have schutzhund the malinois have french ring the dutch shepherds KNPV. I don't think BoerBoel or any mastiffs had anything like that to test their ability.
> 
> With the livestock guardian breeds as long as they stop a predator from attacking the flock or herd they did their job 100% IMO.


 right, and without testing everything is pretty much worthless speculation at best, and a joke at worst thing of how crazy it is that the entire planet literally did not know/agree what real hand to hand fighting was until about 15 years ago.......until the UFC lots of poor suckers spent years doing stuff like kung fu/etc that not only did not give them any fighting skills, it might have been worse than doing nothing


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## Brian Anderson

Matt I think we pretty much all agree. Our perspective is a little different. But in the end we seem to be coming up with the same conclusion. So we are just doing circles from here lol ...


----------



## Matt Grosch

it isnt about a pissing contest or baddest dog contest at all for me......its trying to keep people from being misinformed and scammed, and I know there are tons of people that are where I was a few years back, believing all the breed descriptions and claims about dogs there is some guy right now that wants to get a dog to keep his family safe while he is overseas in the military, traveling for work, out working graveyards etc [just like there are the same type of guys, military/etc that want to learn how to fight, and have completely phony martial arts telling him to come waste his time with them] those people need to know that if they get a bandog or some other off breed, they can count on it not working out for them if someone makes an informed decision and goes to a breeder like brian did, thats another story but since it all comes down to result, there are no good off breeds, how can you say on one hand that almost all BB's are crap, but then say they are a good off breed? thats a contradiction, they are not a good off breed but you are trying to be an exception like harris supposedly is if there are two good working dogos known in the world does that make them a good off breed? of course not


Brian Anderson said:


> the herder vs off breed debate has been raging since the late 70's when I got into these dogs. Im sure it goes back further than that. But to me its just something to talk about. Because in the end everyone has dogs for different reasons. The mollosor group as has been said before are dogs that were bred for many years and had a practical job to do. The process of selection was a natural one. Simple if the dog didn't get it done then he didnt eat and he damn sure wasn't used in a breeding program. Unfortunately for the dogs most if not all of those tasks went the way of the buggy whip. So that leaves a lot of dogs without a practical purpose and that selection process is now done largely by "show" and "conformation". We all know the inevitable end of that. Now with that said there are still some hardcore devoted people who actually test and work those dogs in their original role. Those folks are usually off the radar and not out there promoting dogs. Because there true interest is in producing solid working dogs. The problem they have is a limited or non existent foundation of proven working dogs to start with. But they are there in most of the off breeds.
> 
> My point to Matt is not to argue who has the biggest baddest dog. My point is that it's not correct to say there are NO good off breeds. That simply isn't true. Matt is correct in a lot of what he says. There are not nearly the availability of off breeds who can actually do a job as there are in the herders. The herders have been managed and selected with a lot more focus on the working ability and balance than the others. Even within the herders there are tons of dogs that simply aren't what they once were.
> 
> The truth behind the boerboels I have is that I waited over 2 years for a litter that produced the kind of dog I was looking for. Within that litter there were 2 nice working prospects and 2 that were not in the case of the male dog. The female dog had a higher percentage of drivey working type dogs. The dogs I have are very atypical for the breed. High prey drive, a bit of civil discord, high working drives (want to do something). They are actually not proper boerboels in that the prey drive is higher than one would typically want in a pasture type dog. Why are there not more of this kind of dog within these breeds? One of the main reasons is. A breeder starts producing high numbers of highly driven 155# dogs that don't have a problem biting people and being surley and all the rest. You don't have nearly enough people who can handle the dogs and they inevitably they wind up in shelters and or worse or coming back to the breeder. I could go on and on. But hopefully this explains where I am coming from.
> 
> I'm 50 years old and past all the chest bumping and pissing contests. I did invite Matt down and he is welcome to come down and see a few examples of dogs that still have that spark from the past. Why? because they are cool dogs and something a little "different" than what you typically see. I don't have anything to prove to anyone. I am in dogs for fun and its my passion. some people like golf and some like hunting or whatever. I enjoy the dogs and training them always have and always will. I have had way to many dogs humble me after talking shit about them. I learned my lesson the hard way lol.


----------



## Joby Becker

I agree with that Matt... The only thing I will counter with is there are families of dogs, that have strong genetic traits that can produce good dogs regularly, that pass those genetics down in off breeds...but those are even more rare...LOL..and of course any pup is still a crapshoot....

Is knpv, a "breed" or a mix of good working dog breeds? I really couldn't say. But I do appreciate and like the products of the program...regardless of the answer...


----------



## Matt Grosch

Brian Anderson said:


> Matt I think we pretty much all agree. Our perspective is a little different. But in the end we seem to be coming up with the same conclusion. So we are just doing circles from here lol ...


 pretty much, good luck with your dogs


----------



## Matt Grosch

Joby Becker said:


> I agree with that Matt... The only thing I will counter with is there are families of dogs, that have strong genetic traits that can produce good dogs regularly, that pass those genetics down in off breeds...but those are even more rare...LOL..and of course any pup is still a crapshoot....
> 
> Is knpv, a "breed" or a mix of good working dog breeds? I really couldn't say. But I do appreciate and like the products of the program...regardless of the answer...


 dont know if the best term is that its a 'program', and it seems to be the program that cares most about results, mix in GSD or pitbull, whatever


----------



## Brian Anderson

Matt Grosch said:


> it isnt about a pissing contest or baddest dog contest at all for me......its trying to keep people from being misinformed and scammed, and I know there are tons of people that are where I was a few years back, believing all the breed descriptions and claims about dogs there is some guy right now that wants to get a dog to keep his family safe while he is overseas in the military, traveling for work, out working graveyards etc [just like there are the same type of guys, military/etc that want to learn how to fight, and have completely phony martial arts telling him to come waste his time with them] those people need to know that if they get a bandog or some other off breed, they can count on it not working out for them if someone makes an informed decision and goes to a breeder like brian did, thats another story but since it all comes down to result, there are no good off breeds, how can you say on one hand that almost all BB's are crap, but then say they are a good off breed? thats a contradiction, they are not a good off breed but you are trying to be an exception like harris supposedly is if there are two good working dogos known in the world does that make them a good off breed? of course not


I agree with you Matt... That is the reason for my "piss poor" comment so as not to mislead anyone who may take my posts as championing a breed that is in decline really fast. Most of what you read on the net which is not much is your cut and paste "breed description" crap that typically doesn't apply in the real world. But I also added that there are some around. Kinda like finding hens teeth but they are there. But I advise anyone to either know your stuff or have someone with you who you can trust that knows their stuff. Before you set out to get one of these dogs. I'd say we have all been the gamut of shit dogs of whatever breed through our journey learning and growing in the dogs. But thats what learning is all about! None of us know it all and the ones who know the most are also the most eager and willing to learn. After over 30 years of dogs I am still hungry for more knowledge and learn something new everytime I collar a dog. Good debate and hopefully someone can take something valuable away from it......


----------



## sam wilks

Just wondering why the police primarily use german shepherds, dutch shepherds and mals! Also wondering why Joby defends these off breeds with such a passion, yet went and spent his hard earned money on a dutchie!


----------



## Brian Anderson

sam wilks said:


> Just wondering why the police primarily use german shepherds, dutch shepherds and mals! Also wondering why Joby defends these off breeds with such a passion, yet went and spent his hard earned money on a dutchie!


Sam I see you train PP dogs. Why in your opinion is a herder better at being a PP dog than an "offbreed". Why would you choose to use a herder over another breed for PP work? Do you feel that an offbreed can't do that job? If so why?


----------



## Joby Becker

sam wilks said:


> Just wondering why the police primarily use german shepherds, dutch shepherds and mals! Also wondering why Joby defends these off breeds with such a passion, yet went and spent his hard earned money on a dutchie!


Those are both very simple questions.

The police primarily use herders because they are a sound investment, and are very capable of the work, if the dog is good..hard to argue with or deny those facts...

the second one is a two parter..

I defend the offbreeds, because I have seen many very good dogs that are off breed dogs, and I have owned quite a few good offbreed dogs...and have personally dealt with more than a couple trainer types who will flat out lie about some of the offbreed dogs' potential, or talk about things that they have no experience with. 

Often while we are surrounded by very marginal herder type dogs...It is hard to keep quiet sometimes when Mr. John Q. trainer talks about how crappy an off breed is, when his own dog is not close to being as good as an offbreed dog that you own...in terms of character,commitment and courage, and after a while things like that get under your skin.

The second part is easy.

I spend money on my herder because I like her, and she has to eat. 

I have owned a bunch of dogs...most were pretty good dogs, the ones that were not, I did not keep very long...I am not a herder vs. off breed guy, I am a bullbreed / molosser guy for the most part, but also have always been interested in herders as well...

this is my 5 th herder type dog, if you count a Mal X GSD but the first from this type of breeding, I am really glad I took a chance on her...she is the type of dog that I like (inside her head), even if the packaging isnt the greatest IMO ...although I do think she looks pretty good for a herder...


----------



## sam wilks

Brian Anderson said:


> Sam I see you train PP dogs. Why in your opinion is a herder better at being a PP dog than an "offbreed". Why would you choose to use a herder over another breed for PP work? Do you feel that an offbreed can't do that job? If so why?


In my opinion based on what ive seen, the off breeds just have too much defense and not enough nerves to get the job done. There are good off breed dogs, but it is just a chance of luck. I have not been all over this world looking at off breeds, but from what I have seen, they always have some sort of problem when working. And yes I am aware that there are plenty of herders with problems. Even the off breed people have to agree with that. If you have a nice pit bull that works well, I think that is awesome and in a way priceless because it is rare.


----------



## Guest

sam wilks said:


> In my opinion based on what ive seen, the off breeds just have too much defense and not enough nerves to get the job done. There are good off breed dogs, but it is just a chance of luck. I have not been all over this world looking at off breeds, but from what I have seen, they always have some sort of problem when working. And yes I am aware that there are plenty of herders with problems. Even the off breed people have to agree with that. If you have a nice pit bull that works well, I think that is awesome and in a way priceless because it is rare.


Agreed.

For the same reason the mal is used much more than the GSD. For every good GSD or off breed in this case, there are 10 mals/DS. Strength is in numbers. There is work and there is personal preference.


----------



## Joby Becker

sam wilks said:


> In my opinion based on what ive seen, the off breeds just have too much defense and not enough nerves to get the job done. There are good off breed dogs, but it is just a chance of luck. I have not been all over this world looking at off breeds, but from what I have seen, they always have some sort of problem when working. And yes I am aware that there are plenty of herders with problems. Even the off breed people have to agree with that. If you have a nice pit bull that works well, I think that is awesome and in a way priceless because it is rare.


I can agree with that..nerves are a huge issue with dogs. .It is not even a matter of too much defense in my mind with some dogs..depends on what the "job" is that you want them to do though..as we all agree...a protection or guard type dog does not have to have a full calm grip, and do 100 yard sends.

Sam, have you ever come across a dog that had little prey (that could be used to start bitework) but was very strong in defense/fight whatever...that had good enough nerves, not rock solid though..?

Some dogs like that, you get them over the hump and biting, and they can become gorillas, not meaning out of control or unpredictable here. Not dogs that are gonna do sport work, but dogs that no sane person would try to fight? Dogs that fight harder and stronger the when pressured, but may not be interested in playing bite work games 3 times a week.. I have...Dogs like this have too much defense to train super often, unless you can balance it out, because of the stress incurred, but they take the work seriously...but these dogs can certainly get the job done, if the job is to protect their owners..Dogs that you should not really try to compete with, because they are dangerous to the decoys...sometimes even in a full suit...but dogs that will certainly get the job done in other areas...they are not the greatest working dogs obviously, but the type of dog I would like to have my back if I got jumped by a group of thugs..In that situation it does not matter if the grip is calm, and is 100% full...it matters that the dog has alot of heart and wants to win a fight...

You can find many pitbulls with the prey drive to do sport type stuff. Although I agree it is very far from the norm...If you are talking about getting civil with the dog and trying to get real aggression, it is more rare to find one that will maintain his confidence...

It is a one in a million dog that will view the man as he would another dog, or animal in the ring...and plunge headfirst into battle..and hit guys at 40 mph and try to mess them up for the fun of it, and fight like one might with an animal...without the nerve issues...those are really really really rare..(in the breed) .the one in a million...but something to behold for sure...a 45-50 lb version of Spike in the car video....battle scream and all...I have only come across 1 of those...and it was not mine...dog untrained at 4 yrs did bitework that most people work for years to attempt to get close too, and rarely do...just wanted to battle someone.

I put the pitbull kinda in its own category, as far as offbreeds go...they are pretty versatile breed. can do alot of things well, if you find the "specialists" that are geared towards whatever you want them to do...


----------



## Brian Anderson

sam wilks said:


> In my opinion based on what ive seen, the off breeds just have too much defense and not enough nerves to get the job done. There are good off breed dogs, but it is just a chance of luck. I have not been all over this world looking at off breeds, but from what I have seen, they always have some sort of problem when working. And yes I am aware that there are plenty of herders with problems. Even the off breed people have to agree with that. If you have a nice pit bull that works well, I think that is awesome and in a way priceless because it is rare.


I won't argue that. Like Jody says its a numbers thing. The chance of luck thing is true too. If you go out and blindly buy a dog. But that can happen with any dog. Somewhere along there I got past the chance of luck thing. I buy dogs from people who breed for what I want. I try not to buy young puppies. If you do that then you bring your percentage of getting a dog to do what you want way up regardless of breed. The nerve thing is on the buyer 9 times out of 10. But in the end it always boils down to you don't hunt hogs with a lab and you can't expect a borboel to swim after a duck.


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## Brian Peckinpaugh

Matt, You seem to be pretty critical of the Boz Shepherd, with your short search on the Net. 

If you truely wanted to research the breed, you might want to expand you google search.

Guregh= the mountain name for the dog
Kurdish Guregh= The same dog with the religion of the people as a pride statement
Boz Coban Kopegi= Translates,,, Boz Shepherd Dog
Guregh Coban Kopegi= Guregh Shepherd Dog
Kurdish Kangal= Actually a Guregh MisNamed

These dogs are well known in Turkey, as one of the 15 plus Regional Breeds.
How many 180-250 pound Anatolians have you seen in the USA?
The Female Boz are larger than the average Male Anatolian or Kangal in the USA, at 150-170 pounds.
And their size is just one of the differing characteristics. 

With that mentality, should all dogs from a country be designated only by the country they originated from. Regardless of their function, physical characteristics, temperament,,,, etc. Just does not seem logical. 
Would there be a reason to deny the Regional differences and mix them all together in one big gene pool? 
How many breeds of dogs would we have today if this was a historical practice?


----------



## Bob Scott

Excellent point!
We have Border terriers, Welsh terrier, Staffordshire terriers, Scottish terrier, etc for the simple reason that there was little travel between towns, regions, etc yrs ago. This was the beginning of "breeds". 
Since then men have gone out of their way to mix and match to create their own breeds but originally it was nothing more then distance between towns, regions, etc.


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## Matt Grosch

that was my point about the mals, its the same dog if its one country over let alone one town over and its pretty odd to google something and have literally nothing come up


Brian Peckinpaugh said:


> Matt, You seem to be pretty critical of the Boz Shepherd, with your short search on the Net.
> 
> If you truely wanted to research the breed, you might want to expand you google search.
> 
> Guregh= the mountain name for the dog
> Kurdish Guregh= The same dog with the religion of the people as a pride statement
> Boz Coban Kopegi= Translates,,, Boz Shepherd Dog
> Guregh Coban Kopegi= Guregh Shepherd Dog
> Kurdish Kangal= Actually a Guregh MisNamed
> 
> These dogs are well known in Turkey, as one of the 15 plus Regional Breeds.
> How many 180-250 pound Anatolians have you seen in the USA?
> The Female Boz are larger than the average Male Anatolian or Kangal in the USA, at 150-170 pounds.
> And their size is just one of the differing characteristics.
> 
> With that mentality, should all dogs from a country be designated only by the country they originated from. Regardless of their function, physical characteristics, temperament,,,, etc. Just does not seem logical.
> Would there be a reason to deny the Regional differences and mix them all together in one big gene pool?
> How many breeds of dogs would we have today if this was a historical practice?


----------



## Brian Peckinpaugh

Matt, You have missed the point. There are differences in the regional Breeds. So should we just classify all dogs as to their country. A German Shepherd is a Pincher, is a Dane, is a Rott????? 

Please research something a little more in depth before making statements based on lack of knowledge. research the Primitive Aboriginal Dog Society. There is much history on the development of such breeds. 

Would most breed descriptions allow for the variance of clumping so many regional breeds together. 

Color,,, Any
Hair Type,,, short to long and double coat
Weight,,,, 80#-280#
Height ,,,,26"- 42"
Temperament,,, Placid to Strong
Build,,,, Sighthound to Mastiff like.

The Boz Coban Kopegi is a recognized breed at the Annual Dog Shows in Turkey. 

Would that sound like a True Breed Description. Mabey,,, Just say Canine

I do not understand your stance on this. And if your google search turns up nothing,,, Consider you are also not searching in TURKISH!!! And also understand, there are several names for the same dog,,, based on who is describing them, Religion, region.

Not being ugly,,, but your statements without the effort to understand the subject are offensive.


----------



## James Degale

So I decided to youtube Boz Shepherd and Fila Guard Dog and this is exactly the kind of sh*t I expected to find. 

Exactly the kind to stupid ass trainer doing exactly the stupid ass kind of thing I expected. 

The dogs were exactly as I'd expect them to be. 

Congratulations these idiots are well on their way to having a giant sized liability.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Deu2IJFx2b0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPlKE7JIiic

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3gzNpX9N78

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOpZb...el_video_title


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## Brian Anderson

James Degale said:


> So I decided to youtube Boz Shepherd and Fila Guard Dog and this is exactly the kind of sh*t I expected to find.
> 
> Exactly the kind to stupid ass trainer doing exactly the stupid ass kind of thing I expected.
> 
> The dogs were exactly as I'd expect them to be.
> 
> Congratulations these idiots are well on their way to having a giant sized liability.
> 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Deu2IJFx2b0
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPlKE7JIiic
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3gzNpX9N78
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOpZb...el_video_title



What did you expect to find on shittube? LOL 
Congratulations on your find =D>
Lots of dogs can be liabilities


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## Joby Becker

James Degale said:


> So I decided to youtube Boz Shepherd and Fila Guard Dog and this is exactly the kind of sh*t I expected to find.
> 
> Exactly the kind to stupid ass trainer doing exactly the stupid ass kind of thing I expected.
> 
> The dogs were exactly as I'd expect them to be.
> 
> Congratulations these idiots are well on their way to having a giant sized liability.


About what I would expect to find as well, if searching GUARD DOGS on youtube...

The boz shepherds to me looked very lacking in the confidence...The Fila as well, look at the work though...

I googled German Shepherd Guard dog...
This one has some good fencework, from a young kid..LOL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YE7e7EhKpU

This one is pretty super duper...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPhyO9PPK8Y&feature=related

Some great teeth on this guy, if he decided to use them the guy might be in trouble...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlmtfPvYWD4&feature=related

Look at this CLOWN. and he is a COP..LOL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHLnjiISsOo&feature=related


----------



## Dave Colborn

And HIS dog has a bite force of 450 lbs...


Look at this CLOWN. and he is a COP..LOL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHLnjiISsOo&feature=related[/QUOTE]


----------



## Joby Becker

James Degale said:


> So I decided to youtube Boz Shepherd and Fila Guard Dog and this is exactly the kind of sh*t I expected to find.
> 
> Exactly the kind to stupid ass trainer doing exactly the stupid ass kind of thing I expected.
> 
> The dogs were exactly as I'd expect them to be.
> 
> Congratulations these idiots are well on their way to having a giant sized liability.


About what I would expect to find as well, if searching GUARD DOGS on youtube...

The boz shepherds to me looked very lacking in the confidence...The Fila as well, look at the work though...

I googled German Shepherd Guard dog...
This one has some good fencework, from a young kid..LOL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YE7e7EhKpU

This one is pretty super duper...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPhyO9PPK8Y&feature=related

Some great teeth on this guy, if he decided to use them the guy might be in trouble...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlmtfPvYWD4&feature=related

Look at this CLOWN. and he is a COP..LOL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHLnjiISsOo&feature=related

James...one question...
Do you think a Guard dog, of any type, if it is actually an appropriate guard dog, as in an effective GUARD dog...is NOT a liability..

Guard dogs are a liability period regardless of breed. To me, a guard dog is a dog that will bite and engage someone who enters an enclosed area that the dog is guarding, in other words an epitome of the word LIABILITY...regardless of the breed or training...the good think is that those Boz Shepherds and the other larger breeds probably cannot get over a well built fence...like some other dogs can..

I would expect the same as you did, when looking at guard dogs from third world countires. Trained by people that probably have no classical dog training skills...


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## Peter Cavallaro

hahahahaha F'ing ha

"....he was simply doing what he was trained to do..."


oh hahaha haha

"..the only reason it wasn't worse was due to the quick thinking and quick response of officer.."


hohohahah

.."watch as Best immeadiately yanks on Pedro's leash physically pulling the canine away..."


oh too much, too much, hahah tehe tehe hahah

i will never feel like an idiot newb again

that sh!t is priceless - best thing i seen since someone showed Bruno for gay TV

oh dear me gotta catch my breath - i think i wet myself laughing ... ooops.

thanks for the link.


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## sam wilks

but what you gotta remember about that dog is he is a pure breed german shepherd! that's all that matters8-[


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## Matt Grosch

your opinion seems to be the small minority (especially for working dogs), if all mals are mals, all pits are pits, and all american bulldogs are american bulldogs (a breed with 100 times the diversity) than a "boz shepherd" is a kangal/anatolian [at least its not the normal bandog thing, mixing in pitbull and then claiming the breed is hundred/thousands of years old and has been maintained in a hidden village deep in the mountains] even when I had a long conversation in person with a kangal breeder from turkey "boz shepherds" never came up, even though many other breeds did and when there is literally nothing on the entire internet it really makes it look obvious that this is just trying to remarket them (I understand about getting in at the ground level, but c'mon)


Brian Peckinpaugh said:


> Matt, You have missed the point. There are differences in the regional Breeds. So should we just classify all dogs as to their country. A German Shepherd is a Pincher, is a Dane, is a Rott?????
> 
> Please research something a little more in depth before making statements based on lack of knowledge. research the Primitive Aboriginal Dog Society. There is much history on the development of such breeds.
> 
> Would most breed descriptions allow for the variance of clumping so many regional breeds together.
> 
> Color,,, Any
> Hair Type,,, short to long and double coat
> Weight,,,, 80#-280#
> Height ,,,,26"- 42"
> Temperament,,, Placid to Strong
> Build,,,, Sighthound to Mastiff like.
> 
> The Boz Coban Kopegi is a recognized breed at the Annual Dog Shows in Turkey.
> 
> Would that sound like a True Breed Description. Mabey,,, Just say Canine
> 
> I do not understand your stance on this. And if your google search turns up nothing,,, Consider you are also not searching in TURKISH!!! And also understand, there are several names for the same dog,,, based on who is describing them, Religion, region.
> 
> Not being ugly,,, but your statements without the effort to understand the subject are offensive.


----------



## Brian Peckinpaugh

Sadly Matt,,,, You need to do some more research. The Boz Shepherd (Boz Coban Kopegi, Guregh, Kurdish Guregh) is a recognized breed at the Annual Turkish Kennel Club Shows. There are MANY videos out of Turkey of them. 
Problem,,,, is that the vast majority of information on the net is in Turkish. 
Another reason the BOZ are not called Kangals,,,, That they do not fit into the Parameters of the Kangal breed description. They are bigger, less hair, different color variences, different structure,,, just different. So even if I wanted to call them a Kangal,,, I could not.
And the Anatolian Breed description was written to encompass ANY type of Turkish Dog. They are viewed by the Turks as being a American Breed of Mixed origins. I feel the Regional Breed of the Boz or Guregh deserve more recognition than to be clumped with Registered Mixbreeds.

You probably never heard of the Akyaka, Karayaka, Yoruk, Tuzkoy, Aksaray, Kars, Malak, Panters,,,, etc. There are many Regional Breeds of Guardian Dogs that the Turkish People view with pride in both the regions and in Turkey. Just because someone in the USA does a google search on a breed, and finds little, in no way removes the posibility of its existence. And being that most of the Dogs belong to poor shepherds,,,, little is on the net. Because I am sure that few Shepherds carry their IPad to download information.

But you are entitled to your opinion, and from reading many of your post, I see that you like to hold on to opositional views. 
Your right to view life like this.


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## Matt Grosch

I wouldnt say a oppositional, skeptical and inquiring maybe. Its just important to for people trying to research the subject to know that not all breeds are equal or even real guards. I do respect the fact that you arent marketing them as more than they are, like the "new" super guard dog like caucasion ovtcharkas were a few years ago.


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## rick smith

Matt, you might as well give up; swimmin against the tide

first regardless of what he SAID originally, he is not testing he is TRAINING. actually HE isn't, and at least he was honest to admit his inexperience and that someone was doing it for him

but actions speak louder than words and still pics

all he has responded to is to keep citing a dozen "breeds" to that only Turks know about to try and clarify his is another UNIQUE one....

go back and read the simple Q's i asked him when he first posted...i wanted to see where his head was really at .... after weighing pros/cons provided by some experienced people, what decision did he make and why was he doing what he was proposing ??? ......NO response

imo there is a diff between testing and training, but no matter what label he uses, if he thinks he is successful (in his eyes), i'll post my bets that he will think he has accomplished a lot more than training two dogs....and it will be a "first" ...."kachiiing" $$$ 

so i guess u could say i'm more skeptical


----------



## Brian Peckinpaugh

WOW!!!

All I was doing, is asking for some assistance in evaluating the breeds POTENTIAL in this line of work. I do now have a better understanding of this now, and realize that they have limitations in the Bitework end. 
Being a working breed, I was just trying to find enough types of work to be able to test enough of them, so that future breedings can be done with working selected stock. I feel the Show or Pet industry has ruined to many breeds.

I have given pups to people for testing, so how you can make a greed statement seems unfair.

I have pretty much decided to avoid the Protection line of work, due to the perceived liability, and perceived limitations. 

Have to say, I also do not understand people with such a negative viewpoint on life.


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## James Degale

Brian 

Firstly, it is impossible to comment without a video. If you are open enough to post a video, you might just get some qualified opinions. 

Secondly. you should know better than to get advice from a bunch of keyboard warriors. If you are really keen to pursue this and I see no reason not to, I suggest you find yourself a qualified, experienced trainer, not a back yard wanna-be to work closely with you. Someone who knows not to push an immature dog, with low prey too far.


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## Matt Grosch

actually thats not what you were doing at all, you made a website selling these dogs as "personal protections dogs"


Brian Peckinpaugh said:


> WOW!!!
> 
> All I was doing, is asking for some assistance in evaluating the breeds POTENTIAL in this line of work. I do now have a better understanding of this now, and realize that they have limitations in the Bitework end.
> Being a working breed, I was just trying to find enough types of work to be able to test enough of them, so that future breedings can be done with working selected stock. I feel the Show or Pet industry has ruined to many breeds.
> 
> I have given pups to people for testing, so how you can make a greed statement seems unfair.
> 
> I have pretty much decided to avoid the Protection line of work, due to the perceived liability, and perceived limitations.
> 
> Have to say, I also do not understand people with such a negative viewpoint on life.


----------



## Matt Grosch

"Boz Shepherds in Personal Protection Work Although imported for Livestock Guardians, it soon became apparant that many people were interested in the Boz Shepherd for Family and Personal Protection Work. Being the Boz Shepherd has for thousands of years been selected for their ability to protect both Flock and Family, I felt they would have to drive to function in this line of work. Having a Low Prey Drive, many people have doubted that they would have enough of a drive to be Aggressive towards an attacker. I feel the pictures of their first testing more than shows that they have it in them, be it Prey Drive or Defensive Drive. The Tester Curtis feels the Boz Shepherd has plenty of potential with Protection Work."


----------



## Matt Grosch

"For HOME and FAMILY PROTECTION, the Boz Shepherd/Guregh and Kangal have a strong ingrained instinct to love and protect. With a natural low prey drive, loving nature, and guardian defensiveness they excel at their job, without the risk of aggression associated with some protection breeds. The Boz Shepherd/Guregh is one of the best and most capable protectors of family and home, instinctively placing themselves between you and any danger, and only acting with a intelligent and measured response. Although they have a Ranking Drive to dominate other canines, they will remain submissive to even the children in your family, but will remain defensive to outside human threats. This along with a Low Prey Drive, makes them a very safe breed with all children, but remain an effective Family Guardian with their strong defensive nature. They posses a natural balance of love, bonding, devotion, defensiveness, physical ability and drive, with the intelligence to react appropriately. In a world of liability and litigation, having a guard dog that is smart enough to recognize a real threat, and react with appropriate measures seems necessary. And if needed, could handle a large threat with a ferocity of a lion. The thousands of years of selection for guardian and protection work has made a dog that literally excels at their job. They seem to elicit admiration and respect from everyone that encounters them. Comments usually start with their size, then usually center around their controlled and calm presence. They are a dog that will stay by your side all day if away from home, or at home if anything out of the ordinary exist. They are becoming a very sought after dog in Europe for their guarding abilities, with some selling for as much as $79,800. As the world discovers them, the Boz Shepherd will surely fill a special role as a Supreme and Safe Family Guardian or Home Protection Dog. I consider the Boz Shepherd the Ultimate Guardian Dog, with a Loyal and Loving nature, the Drive to protect, Intelligence to react with a measured response, and a Ability to handle nearly any threat. Otherwise a REAL dog! Something about a BOZ SHEPHERD DOG on guard has the ability to stop stupid people"


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## Matt Grosch

if you actually had just gotten some because you found them interesting and wondered if they had any potential everyone would have just wished you good luck (and possibly let you know that you were probably wasting your time and would end up disappointed) you can get mad when people check you on the "ultimate home protector" stuff when they know better seems like you are backing away from that, so I still wish you good luck


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## James Degale

wow, those are some BIG claims  

hard not to think it is all just marketing bullsh*t no matter how much benefit of the doubt I give someone, dedicated to the breed yadda, yadda

where is this website again?


----------



## Matt Grosch

http://www.monstermalak.com/Home_Page.php just comes down to being interested vs being convinced.... for good or bad, you have to be skeptical when it comes to dogs, and I dont see how you be involved without becoming cynical as well


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

Matt, if the quotes you posted are actually from the OP it is very dissapointing - looks like just another puppy peddler in the making, dam i thought it was someone eager and passionate about exploring the capabilities of their breed.

another breed going to have to suffer - the good news is their can't be too many "new" breeds left to exploit so the cycle should end naturally - but then there is the mixes i guess.


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## Matt Grosch

im willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, im sure if back when I thought presas, bandogs, CC's, etc where the ultimate, I might have gotten a pair and set up a webiste I dont think he knew they werent protection dogs and was trying to make money despite that


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## Peter Cavallaro

benefit of the doubt is one thing - if someone has the intelligence to import, train..... etc then they would have the intelligence not to make claims that you posted - reeks of a money grabbing scam trading in dog flesh - i even called the OP a cool guy.

- dissillusioned


----------



## Joby Becker

I have also seen 3-4 websites set up on this breed, which all seem to have some mention of or ties to Brian P...

Those sites have some very misleading statements made about these dogs...that seem to based on selling the dog and hyping it..

I give the OP credit for testing his dogs...but not for his marketing techniques at all....but he did get some pics to put on the website..


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## rick smith

lets see the "results" of this so called "testing" IN WRITING before we make any comments on how good it was !!

and lets see how professional the testing was performed in writing

even when I, as a TOTALY not famous amateur retired navy puke diver and dog trainer TESTS and evaluates ANY dog, i provide it ALL to the owner in writing as CLEAR as i can possibly make it

my original gut feeling still sticks and and it stinks of ....."kachiiiing" :-(
the dog's name says it all IMNSFHO :-(

fwiw, over the years, i've had a few navy guys ask me for "help" with their pits related to the "family protection" area, if you catch my drift 
that's why asking WHY someone wants help may be just as important to know .... before you GIVE it 

so if you as a trainer gets a customer who wants to build up their dogs "protection" skills....would you do it just because they were willing to pay you ??? (hope not)


----------



## rick smith

QUOTED from Brian the OP's WEB SITE :

"Geisha is the oldest at 18 months, and was by far the one that excelled during her first test. Wether it is her being older, or just a harder temperment, her level was above both 12 month old males. The males showed the potential, but would benefit from furthur training. My plans are to have Geisha and Max trained. Monster will stay my demo dog for the public to be able to put hands on."
..... many more "action shots" included here too ....

....any questions now as to whether he is just TESTING these two dogs ??

btw, was his web site and sales pitch included in his BIO ???

Matt...
- the first time i skimmed thru that paragraph you quoted i kinda laffed...then i read it again slowly and got annoyed, thinking there will probably be people who will read it and believe it....i read it one more time and it made me sick to my stomach

now that i have confirmed what i suspected it's obvious why he didn't respond to my questions ..........(Fking) "kachiiiing" :-(


----------



## Joby Becker

rick smith said:


> lets see the "results" of this so called "testing" IN WRITING before we make any comments on how good it was !!
> 
> and lets see how professional the testing was performed in writing
> 
> even when I, as a TOTALY not famous amateur retired navy puke diver and dog trainer TESTS and evaluates ANY dog, i provide it ALL to the owner in writing as CLEAR as i can possibly make it
> 
> my original gut feeling still sticks and and it stinks of ....."kachiiiing" :-(
> the dog's name says it all IMNSFHO :-(
> 
> fwiw, over the years, i've had a few navy guys ask me for "help" with their pits related to the "family protection" area, if you catch my drift
> that's why asking WHY someone wants help may be just as important to know .... before you GIVE it
> 
> so if you as a trainer gets a customer who wants to build up their dogs "protection" skills....would you do it just because they were willing to pay you ??? (hope not)


Rick I was basing my accolades based on what he told us here...

It appears to be a little different..

I work offbreeds pretty regular, and "evaluate" individuals on both informal and formal basis, and occasionally I get referred to people, that come out and say they want an evaluation, and that they want to train...

Usually the dogs are not great, sometimes really terrible...and every once in a while I find that the people came with 2 cameras, shot a buttload of pics, and then find the pics on the website, or facebook, or boards, or whatever, and never see the people again...and the pics make the dog look like it was doing something good actually....LOL....that irks me so much, I do not allow pics if I think that is what is gonna happen...

I do at least wear the sleeve correctly for the "photo" OP....


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## rick smith

understand completely Joby; not pointing any fingers at anybody except maybe one ... at the OP 

and just added my comments that i won't automatically help someone who would like to get their dogs to "bite better" (as they sometimes call it) until i have some idea of why they want to do it .... sometimes you get some goofballs, or at least i have anyway


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## Brian Peckinpaugh

I seemed to find a brutal bunch here.

Firstly; The claims of Family Protection about the dogs is 100%. I would dare you to come into my unlocked door uninvited. They have filled this role historically and presently. Why is it so OBSCURE to claim their ability at this. 

Note I have never claimed their ability at PERSONAL Protection. I never even considered this line of work for them, until so many people wanting them for this were inquiring about them. I only asked for help to evaluate them. PERIOD!!! I announced my ignorance, asked for opinions, asked for help. I personally have no use for a protection trained dog, nor have the time to comit to the training.

*My intention is to just find lines of work for them*, as to hopefully decrease the degredation of the breed by lack of testing and selection. Working breeds need to work, otherwise they become PETS. They were imported for Livestock Guardians, but 90% of the interested buyers are Families, and a Protection Dog people. 

I am promoting the breed, Admittedly! I love them as Dogs, Working LGDs, pets, etc. 
Why the villianization of someone promoting a breed they love?

I did not portray the Dogs as Superior Protection Dogs. In fact, in every post, I stated that I was unsure of their ability, did not know if they had the right drive, did not know if they would work.
Is this someone trying to HYPE their dogs? Would someone trying to HYPE say repeated comments in regards to their own doubt. 

Had I come across saying that I found a dog that has MORE ABILITY, BETTER, SUPERIOR with regards to PERSONAL PROTECTION WORK,,,, I could honestly see why you would be upset.

My remarks of SUPERIOR, MORE ABILITY, are in regards to their *Predator Detering capabilities*. And with these claims,,,, I stand 100% behind them. 

All I did was come on here asking for opinions, advise, and help in testing the Breeds *POTENTIAL*.....

For the life of me, I do not understand the harsh negativity.


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## Matt Grosch

um....in addition to the other stuff I quoted from your site "The Boz also excel at guarding families, livestock, businesses, working personal protection, weight pull competitions and just being a family pet." http://www.monstermalak.com/


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## James Degale

Brian Peckinpaugh said:


> I seemed to find a brutal bunch here.
> 
> Note I have never claimed their ability at PERSONAL Protection..


It's on your website!!!! WTF [-X

*"The Boz also excel at guarding families, livestock, businesses, working personal protection, weight pull competitions and just being a family pet.*"


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## Joby Becker

James Degale said:


> It's on your website!!!! WTF [-X
> 
> *"The Boz also excel at guarding families, livestock, businesses, working personal protection, weight pull competitions and just being a family pet.*"


I expect a guard dog to be pretty hard core...

Brian can you post some VIDEO of the BOZ shepherds in your group doing anything close to guarding families, businesses, or for protection for families...

That goes far beyond being a "watch dog" type for my definition, or a big dog that will bark...


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## Brian Peckinpaugh

I do stand corrected with regards to the statement on my website.

The statement was in response to claims that "IN TURKEY' they are only fighting dogs. I appologise for my lack of clarification on this. But my response was in regards to their functional role in Turkey.

In Turkey, they are ulilized for Livestock Guardian, Family Protection, Business Guardian, and PERSONAL Protection. They were even utilized by the police along with the Kangal.

Correct, I do not know if the Personal Protection holds up to the STANDARDS in the USA. 

Hopefully I will learn more when I go to Turkey next month. 

When I get the time, and figure out how to download the video I will share video of them GUARDING.
But I have to ask, with the pictures of Geisha biting the sleeve of a tester at a place far away from our home, why would one doubt their willingness of them confronting a threat at their HOME.

I have contacted several trainers, offering to GIVE them pups to raise and TEST. I have stated their UNKNOWN ability to function at this line of work (In the USA). I asked for Trainers to Evaluate them for their Potential.
I do not understand why I was treated as someone that came on here with pups for sale, making Claims of Grandure. 
Personally, if this is the type of people in this line of work, why would I want to subject my dogs to the same welcome I received.


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## Connie Sutherland

Brian Peckinpaugh said:


> I do stand corrected with regards to the statement on my website. .... But my response was in regards to their functional role in Turkey. .... In Turkey, they are ulilized for Livestock Guardian, Family Protection, Business Guardian, and PERSONAL Protection. I do not know if the Personal Protection holds up to the STANDARDS in the USA. ...


What does "personal protection" mean in Turkey? I'm just asking about definition, with no reference to "standards in the USA."

(I do not mean to convey harsh negativity. It's a question.  )


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## Joby Becker

Brian Peckinpaugh said:


> I seemed to find a brutal bunch here.
> 
> Firstly; The claims of Family Protection about the dogs is 100%. I would dare you to come into my unlocked door uninvited.


Where do you live? Might be able to get someone to try that...


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## ann schnerre

Connie Sutherland said:


> What does "personal protection" mean in Turkey? I'm just asking about definition, with no reference to "standards in the USA."
> 
> (I do not mean to convey harsh negativity. It's a question.  )


same thought came to me. what's the difference between personal protection in turkey and in the US? and this IS just a question, not a judgement.


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## Brian Peckinpaugh

In Turkey, the dogs are used to protect Businesses, and used in Personal Protection. My statement in regards to "Standards in the USA" are that I have little knowledge of the rules or accepted levels of training in Turkey. Their concept of Personal Protection may be quite different. 
They are used by the Police in some form for security work. 

The videos I have seen of the work are mostly a man with a HUGE dog that is approached by the "bad Guy", and quickly chassed off. Have not seen any bitework video. May not be to many volunteers to allow a 200 pound dog to bite them.... 

I will be traveling to Turkey this month, so hope to get a better understanding of the function in this area of work.


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## rick smith

Brian, 
sorry if I sound so materialistic, but very i'm interested in the "kachiiing" part.....do you have some hard evidence to back up your claim in your web site about the almost 80,000 grand dog ? How much did you pay for yours and what is the "market price" for a high quality Boz from a reputable breeder, etc ?
- are we talking 1-3k, compact or SUV prices ? usd is fine ... i can convert to yen


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## rick smith

btw, Brian, please don't consider this "brutal" in any way. it's a part of the dog world and i doubt there will be many of these big boys in shelters until the USA breeding expands......plus it was you that mentioned a price on the web site, which is not what i normally see when a breed is being discussed


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## Brian Peckinpaugh

I am in communication with the man in Korea that bought three of the top price dogs from the breeder in Turkey. He paid 30-50,000 Euros


The Video on the Boz page is a TV program in Turkey. If you look at the prices in Euros, you will see them at 12-50,000 Euros. 

I also realize this is likely a Fad, or limited supply issue. 
The Boz that I am breeding, will be sold for $2,000. Some think it is expensive, some do not.

I paid anywhere from $2,500-$4,000 for my pups. But the shipping is the brutal part. Costing me $5,800 to bring over a bred female this month. She is 32.7 inches tall, and 172 pounds. Part of the high cost is getting them out of Turkey, then through Romania to Germany, then to the USA.
All of the recent dogs I have gotten are under a partnership. So I just have had to pay the shipping.


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## Randy Allen

So you don't even know anything about breeding other than the, ahem, obvious basics.

Great, just what the dog world needs, another money grubber.
Stick to selling a bit of pot so your stash is for free and leave the dog world alone will ya.


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## maggie fraser

Brian Peckinpaugh said:


> I paid anywhere from $2,500-$4,000 for my pups. But the shipping is the brutal part. Costing me $5,800 to bring over a bred female this month. She is 32.7 inches tall, and 172 pounds. Part of the high cost is getting them out of Turkey, then through Romania to Germany, then to the USA.


Hi, I am curious about the long way round for a short cut. Is there some big deal in getting the dogs out of Turkey, I would have thought not. Why wouldn't you fly them out of Turkey, or at least neighbouring Greece ?? Doesn't make an awful lot of sense, particularly if you know what many of the roads are like in Romania. Once through Romania, you have to traverse across Hungary to Germany, or north via Poland, I know, I've done it lol. This doesn't make sense at all!


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## David Petruescu

maggie fraser said:


> particularly if you know what many of the roads are like in Romania.


Hey, nothing wrong with the roads in Romania. They call those holes in the ground speed bumps. :lol:


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## maggie fraser

David Petruescu said:


> Hey, nothing wrong with the roads in Romania. They call those holes in the ground speed bumps. :lol:


Well, they certainly slow you up for sure...no street lighting either...death traps, and that's before you hit border control . Have Top Gear done a show there yet ?

Sorry to go off topic.


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## Lee H Sternberg

maggie fraser said:


> Hi, I am curious about the long way round for a short cut. Is there some big deal in getting the dogs out of Turkey, I would have thought not. Why wouldn't you fly them out of Turkey, or at least neighbouring Greece ?? Doesn't make an awful lot of sense, particularly if you know what many of the roads are like in Romania. Once through Romania, you have to traverse across Hungary to Germany, or north via Poland, I know, I've done it lol. This doesn't make sense at all!


Maybe they take the long route due to the HASH stuck up the dog's ass.:-D


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## Dave Colborn

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Maybe they take the long route due to the HASH stuck up the dog's ass.:-D


Spoken like an old school smuggler!!!


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## Lee H Sternberg

Dave Colborn said:


> Spoken like an old school smuggler!!!


No Comment!:lol:


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## Brian Peckinpaugh

It has been illegal to take dogs out of Turkey since 1986. Therefore the need for such efforts.

Randy Allen, why the harsh comment. Although I would admit that there are always things to learn. I have raised LGDs for 22+ years to protect my stock. Have been around dogs all my life. Am a Registered Nurse. 

With a statement like yours, no new persons could ever come into the world of breeding,,, right???
Why the statements of being a Money Grubber? What elements of greed have I shown. 

I do not understand the people with such negative viewpoints. 

I never understood the term *"Keyboard Warrior"* before. But Have to say, I am starting to.

Either that, or just lacking something in their lives.


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## maggie fraser

Continuing the saga, I stumbled across this... a study on kangals

http://www.kangalkopegi.org/refs/Genetics.pdf

And this...

With the explosion of interest in the breed during the 1980s, when a number of dogs were exported to American researchers and European breeders, the Kangal suddenly became a fashionable acquisition for affluent Turks, most of them city dwellers in the western towns. Government officials had the authority to commandeer dogs from the Sivas area for their own purposes. The Army decided to train the breed for work already being done by German Shepherd Dogs and Dobermanns, only to discover after several years and numerous failures that this breed, whichinstinctively works on its own initiative and has a quite different character from other ‘sharper’ breeds, was not a good candidate for obedience. Horror stories of whole lorryloads of Kangal Dogs being shipped like livestock out of central Anatolia are, sadly, well founded. Numbers declined alarmingly, exacerbated by the arrival of parvovirus, which swept through the area.

Taken from here.... http://www.kangalkopegi.org/breed-history.html 

There are links on the second site containing bibliography.

Quite interesting stuff.


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## Randy Allen

If the shoe fits, wear it Brian Pechinpauch.

Your words if I remember correctly were something like 'the fad will likely fade'. Now it comes to light that you're trying to take full advantage of that fad through a web page dedicated to selling these animals as ppd's.
And you're talking about importing more 'for the purpose of breeding' with no testing or idea of what a ppd is, weather we're in Turkey or the USA. But yeah, the fad may fade, so strike while the iron is hot, right?
So you've been around dogs your whole life. So what. Join the crowd jack.
Ooh you're a nurse, bfd! That was my first gig in this life too. What does that have to do with being a money grubbing byb? The the two realms are not mutually exclusive ya know.

Stick with what the dog has long been breed for if you love the breed......Though the market for LGD's is somewhat (considerably) smaller.....you'll be doing the breed a favor. 
Though your pocket won't be quite so full Mr. BYB.


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## Bob Scott

Brian said;
" I have raised LGDs for 22+ years to protect my stock."

Is that you in the pics with the dog?


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## Brian Peckinpaugh

The main purpose for importation was to protect my stock, and to provide an LGD capable of defending against the Wolves which are making a comeback in many areas. Traditional LGD breeds are being killed by the wolves.
As stated before, I never even thought of their use in PP work. It was not until after many people inquiring about this that I came on here to ask for assistance with advice and evaluation. Look up all the post and threads by myself, as this is obvious.
The vast majority of efforts I have put out have been to the LGD function. And truthfully I now understand that this breed has limitations and potential liabilities with the PP work. I even shipped Geisha to France because her temperament was not LGD material. I also removed the Protection Work page from my website.
I have not sold a single puppy to Protection Work people, but am branded as a BYB Money grubber. I was just exploring a possible line of work, so as to not degrade a working breed by lack of Work related selection.

I have sunk $25,000 into importing a breed to the US, because I admire and love them. Am organizing a Breed Club, Pedigree, and lines of work to maintain the capabilities they were bred for. I offer a "no questions asked replacement" to keep a dog out of a bad home. Screen buyers for potential placement. I have given puppies to people for testing purposes, and am arranging to place free pups with both the Wildlife Fed. And Cattlemans Assoc. For testing against Wolf predation. I have offered free pups to Protection Trainers for evaluation.

But I am Labeled a BYB Money Grubber! 

I would have to say, if this is the level of maturity and acceptance to be expected from the Personal Protection Community,,,
I would rather breed them to a Poodle, and sell Boodles.


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## maggie fraser

John Dickinson said:


> This has been a very entertaining thread but I do have a question. Now I am no lawyer but you stated it has been illegal to take dogs out of Turkey since 1986. So, didn't you just admit to international smuggling on an open internet forum? Please correct me if this is incorrect. But having worked overseas for a number of years and seeing people get into trouble for trying to cross international borders with restricted items, it sure sounds like you did to me.


I don't think he did admit to that 'international smuggling', he has admitted I think though to purchasing smuggled goods. If the dogs are not illegal to import into the States, I expect that is why the price of his dogs are so high. Still think there could be a better way of shipping them without going via near siberia lol :smile:.


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