# Trying to strike the balance.



## Jim Engel

Below is my current attempt at a brief description of Bloodhound capabilities, it is really difficult to catch the right balance. Your comments and critical comments encouraged.

Also I nee a couple good photographs. An actual police handler with his dog would be supper, a random cop in uniform holding the leash of your dog not so much. Ain't gonna be any show dog photos!

Over the years there has been an enormous amount of sometimes outlandish Bloodhound propaganda, tales of following many month old trails over incredible distances, crossing streams, roads and bridges, even carrying on the trail after the subject person departs in a vehicle. 
This is most unfortunate, because the truth is remarkable enough; Bloodhounds have a long and honorable history of service. A good specimen of this breed is indeed a remarkably useful dog, but not any sort of a super dog, just as a Malinois or a German Shepherd can in their own ways be good dogs, but are still only dogs with all of the frailties and idiosyncrasies that go with life in the real world. Well-bred, meaning bred according to working effectiveness rather than fashionable appearance, and well trained Bloodhounds can and do serve as remarkable trailing dogs. 
Bloodhounds are remarkable trailing dogs, successfully following a person a much as a week later in favorable conditions; much longer times are reported more anecdotally. Experienced, credible handlers speak in terms of a week or a little more as typical personal oldest times. Such searches are often after rainfall and include asphalt and other hard surface segments. This is in areas where there has been extensive human activity; the ability to sort out the one person's odor is perhaps the most remarkable aspect. They can follow a child when picked up and carried by an adult, and persons using a bicycle. They are able to detect scent hovering over a body of water and search downstream to pick up the odor.
One of the most difficult things to characterize realistically is how old a trail a dog, Bloodhound or other, can effectively follow over useful distances. These things are like war and fishing stories, get better as they are told, and as the storyteller feels compelled to match exploits of other storytellers. Reviewing what is written and observing discussions my tentative personal perception is that about a week is a very rough outside limit. Some dogs can under favorable conditions work some trails that are a week old or even somewhat older, but more realistically 48 hours is beginning to push what the dog can be expected work on a routine basis. As always, your millage will vary. 
Bloodhounds are in fact sometimes capable of following a person in a vehicle, but this is in general of marginal utility. Even when entirely enclosed, the forced air ventilation system continually expels passenger compartment air with the scent rafts and other components of odor. This does not mean sixty miles at highway speeds in a windstorm, but in instances of lower speed, shorter delay time and shorter distance it is possible; there are reliable reports of criminals on occasion located and convicted after such a search. (Stockton, 2004) In rural areas one reported strategy is to traverse a highway by vehicle, stopping at each intersection to have the dog sniff and indicate direction. In general, this can perhaps be compared to the famous football "hail Mary play" where in desperation the quarterback throws the ball as far downfield as possible, hoping against hope that one of his receivers will make the catch and win the game.[FONT=&quot][1][/FONT] 

[FONT=&quot][1][/FONT] My apologies to my non-American readers, I do not know soccer well enough to cite the corresponding analogy for desperation.


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## Jim Delbridge

Unless you can cite documentation for your claims, they are simply anecdotal in nature. They have no credance. No studies, no documented skill levels. 

Sowwy,

Jim Delbridge


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## mel boschwitz

If you are going to provide sources for the bloodhound section, then you should provide it for all sections. 

Why would you compare highway vehicle trails to a "Hail Mary" play? Considering a hail mary play is a last ditch effort after all other avenues have failed, and that vehicle trails have a very limited time frame to be viable, the bh has to be utilized long before the investigator has finished the crime scene. Hardly a "Hail Mary".

You are only focusing on bh's finding people, and neglecting their evidentiary tool value. Bad guy runs from crime scene, gets caught soon after but the gun he used is gone. The bh can still run the trail, and either indicate on the evidence if the dog is so inclined, or at least give you a trail with which to look for evidence.


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## Nancy Jocoy

I think, if you are going to write about bloodhounds, you need to immerse yourself into training with them so you can form your own opinions.


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## Jim Engel

Kevin Kocher:

"The odds that you will be successful following a vehicle while "working a case" are low, even next to nothing. You have probably read about some Bloodhounds that got lucky following a car while working a missing child case. I congratulate them on the achievement because when a child is missing you need to try the improbable. Just maybe it will be you dog's lucky day to do the amazing or miraculous."



You are right, I need to go to sources and quote someone more expert on the field. Based on this, hail mary play would seem to be an appropriate description, but I will put the actual quote in the text.

thank you for your comments!


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## Jim Engel

Nancy says: 
"I think, if you are going to write about bloodhounds, you need to immerse yourself into training with them so you can form your own opinions."

If that were the standard, no broad, general books would ever be written. I have never been a police officer or handler, worked in a ring suit, trained a Rottweiler or any one of many things, yet to present a broad picture each of these needs to be discussed and explained.

Also, I can not do double blind tests on everything, from military messenger dogs to searching for wounded troops on the front line.

What I do need to do is be more complete in my references.

I do appreciate your criticisms, if I could not stand the heat I should never have invited the critics into my kitchen!


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## Sarah Platts

I don't know what kind of book you plan on publishing but there is a definite biased tone in what you have written. If you want to write a general BH description then do that and leave out all the mythical stuff. As you say mileage will vary even among BHs. So much depends on the time and effort a person spends training the dog and challenge training themselves. Maybe consider editing the above into different sections of your book?


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## Jim Engel

*Other input*

Reference:
http://www.jimmyryce.org/Bloodhounds.html

Experts Answer FAQ about Bloodhound's Man-trailing Ability. 

Larry Harris, Irvine (CA) P.D.: [email protected]
Ed Kilby, President, American Bloodhound Club/ABC: www.bloodhounds.org
Ofc. Jeff Schettler, Alameda (CA) P.D.: [email protected]
Ptlm. Jack Shuler, Salem (IL) P.D.: [email protected]
Jan Tweedie, Cor. Chief, Kittitas Co. (WA): [email protected]
Lt. (retired) Weldon “Woody” L. Wood, President, National Police Bloodhound
Association/NPBA: www.npba.com

Below are the written answers to a questionnaire prepared by Claudine Ryce, Executive Director of The Jimmy Ryce Center for Victims of Predatory Abduction. The responses were returned to her prior to their serving as paid instructors at the March 2000 trailing training meet. If an instructor did not make a written response, he/she is not named under the question. The 4-day field meet, attended by more than 70 teams, was co-sponsored by The Jimmy Ryce Center and the Highland County Sheriff’s Office in Sebring, Florida. It was funded through a grant from the Florida Department of Law Enforcement. 

Can bloodhounds follow older human scent trails than other dogs?

Harris: Yes. On 12/10/98, my bloodhound “Trace” ran a 6 ½ day old trail, 3.3 miles long, in the city. We had just had 2 inches of rain on Dec. 5th, then strong Santa Ana winds on Dec. 8 and 9. Under questioning by the detectives, the defendant admitted the dog was right. The defendant was convicted of 2nd degree murder on Jan. 21, 2000.

Kilby: Yes. The oldest I’ve trailed was 36 hours old, on asphalt, after a heavy rain.

Schettler: Yes, on the average, it seems bloodhounds can. However, other well trained scent dogs can still do a good job. My bloodhound’s oldest actual trails were five and nine days old.

Shuler: Yes. The oldest trial I’ve run successfully was nine days old.

Tweedie: Yes. In moderate temperatures with moisture and light wind, a bloodhound can work with scent after many days.

Woody: Yes. Depending on weather and terrain conditions, bloodhounds can follow a trail as much as a week old.

END OF QUOTE

Based on this, a week old would seem to be a reasonable outside limit to any sort of normal trail ?


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## Jim Delbridge

*Re: Other input*

That was 12 years ago. I know that Jeff has changed his opinion a lot in the past two years from his double bind results. The problem with such bold statements is that the uneducated and unexperienced take it on blind faith. Most disregard that for an older trail to be successful that environmental conditions would have to be just right OR more likely intelligence guided the dog team a good way of that trail. The guidance can be unintentional or suggestive Most inexperienced dog handlers are so emotionally and egotistically invested in their dogs' end results that they find ways to justify an abnormal result. 

You need to do more research into current studies. Your Kocher quote was one of the more politically correct responses I've seen.

Jim


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## Jim Engel

Please indicate a list of "current sources"


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## Jim Delbridge

Like I said, I don't trail. Most of the Cadaver dog books I've seen have lots of mistakes in them due to ignoring the science of scent and treating HRD work like air scent. I tore up Rebman's book for a graduate class years ago. I personally think Marci wrote the bulk of it with an air scent perspective.

I'd suggested you go to the K9Forensic list on yahoo and search for Jeff's posts as he goes into double blind in detail FOR TRAILING. Example:

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/K9forensics/message/20940

I understand it is bad form to copy posts from other lists, so the above link is just one of his posts touching the subject. My attitude is that if its on the internet that its fair game for anyone that can search. I've been quoted in multiple books...whoopty do! 
Join the list and search for gak9ntc to get his posts. I think it will provide you insight into the bold statements of ages of trail you propose for any trailing dog.....such as you need to highly reconsider them. But, it's your book and your words.

I can't spoonfeed you any more than this.

Regards,

Jim Delbridge


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## brian w. kimbell

i know this is a zombie thread, but I gotta respond. any bloodhound handler that tries to tell you they can trail something over 72 hrs is full of shit. any responsible bh handler knows the limits of scent and their dog, and the evidence is just not there for some of the ridonkulous claims made by irresponsible handlers. my hounds can do some amazing stuff, and some of the dogs/handlers I've trained with are even better, but we constantly run up against this crap. it's quite frustrating...


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## Christopher Smith

Brian how old of a scent can they track?

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## brian w. kimbell

we train out to about 72 hrs. Anything past that is a shot in the dark, so to speak. Will I try it if a life is on the line? Absolutely. Do I think it's gonna work? Doubtful...


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## mel boschwitz

As mentioned earlier, it's a lot dependent upon weather and environmental conditions. In the summer where I live 72hrs would be extremely pushing it, and even then only barely viable early early in the morning. But in the winter that would be easily doable. I know people in California in very dry areas who say 24hrs is pushing it. And people in the NE who regularly work a week old trail.


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## rick smith

i would not overlook scientific research studies related to canine scent detection, canine olfactory studies, etc., and note the breeds that were tested and if they were compared, etc
- an absence of bloodhounds would be just as noteworthy as comparative data that included that breed.
- btw....i haven't been able to read your drafts so i have no idea if these kind of refs were already noted

i know how some will say research is not real world and therefore useless, but in would still look for those refs and cite them just to be professional and thorough while covering your subjects 
- summaries and extracts are usually free, but you will have to spend some bucks to get the whole enchilada


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## Ang Cangiano

Interesting read if you haven't already seen it:

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/lab/for.../fsc/july2004/research/2004_03_research03.htm

Ang


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## Jim Delbridge

Just to put this in the proprer frame of mind because some treat the feebies as special. Realize that the feebies were the ones that built Sandra Anderson's reputation before she started planting evidence for her dog to find. Realize (learned after the fact) that all of Sandra Anderson's (no longer Crumrine either as they've since divorced...I hear Dan is happy about that from a post he made on a list) ....all of Sandra Anderson's credentials were bogus, i.e. made up. She claimed to have all sorts of certifications in dog training, et all. Having known her, I can say she was about 1/3rd natural dog trainer, 1/3 showman/charismatic character, and 1/3 total sociopath (well, worth looking up what this means as apparently ~ 1-in-25 people are sociopaths...personally I think the dog world attracts them, but that's another discussion).
My point is this, the feebies built Sandy's cred because they really didn't know any better. After that episode, they picked others that they felt they could rely upon including an englishman whose dog doesn't really train on human human remains (it's a british thing). The more I've dealt with beuraucrats the more I've come to realize that they like to pigeonhole and in doing so make tremendous assumptions.

so with that said, it's best to read every journal entry and paper you can get your hand on. You will find many of them contradict each other. It's then up to you to weed out the real honest scientific information from the multitudes of feces. Dog handlers (as a whole) love to find "the one" with all the answers. In this need, they create "rock stars" of dog and dog handler trainers. Even when these "rock stars" totally self-destruct the handlers will support them for the longest time. I lived through the cycle once and continue to observe it going round and round. I got to sit in on a discussion of PhDs simply on scent and olfaction.....these are dog handlers whose vocations give them the opportunity to experiment scientifically on what is really going on. They still don't know and some still support the myths. The canine nasal receptor still remains a myth to some degree which is why the claims of days old tracks continue, but few take up the challenge of double blind testing of their claims.
The end result is if a bad guy, lost child, or wandering alzheimer's patient is found days after their trail was laid then happy days, but only a fool would set this up as the standard. People still argue what the trail scent source is, skin rafts proposed in the 70's as a way to visualize what they imagined was happening, outgassing from the trail layer, oils from the sebaceous glands on the skin, etc. If the trial is only a few hours old, the chance is just as good that the dog is following crushed vegetation. 

Yet you will find many "experts" that tell you "how it is". Currently, no body really knows. Tis better to keep good logs that document the environmental conditions, the human conditions, and the circumstances to be able to demonstrate what you and your dog did on a particular day. Tis better to work routine double blinds (that really are double blinds) and document both the successes and the failures. A double blind is not a test to demonstrate what you can do. It is a tool to determine where your training and experience are weak; Otherwise, many handlers become fat, dumb, and happy thinking their dog can do it all. 

Oh, for those non-U.S.A. citizens not used to our habit of denegrating our government agencies, feebie is the same as F.B.I. I have worked with some good, some bad, and some in between. Most are just doing the best job they can with what they got.

Respectfully,

Jim Delbridge


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## Christopher Smith

Jim that was great! Thanks.

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## Tim Lynam

Just keep it real world Engel. With dogs, blind luck always gets documented and added to the statistics and Murphy's Law is forgotten. I'm sure that some day we'll wire a dog's brain and be able to communicate with it. It won't surprise me when one says (just like us) "It was my lucky day!" or "I don't know how I did that!" As you already know, no matter what you put in the book, it opens the debate. The number of factors to be considered in order to document success or failure in each case is mind boggling and the importance of each will be discussed forever... I would submit that opinions from experienced handlers, such as Mr. Delbridge are the "facts" to stand on. The day in, day out experiences of the people who do the work. Throw out the "exceptions." Let the exceptions justify and document their own experiences. I was a "Data Dude" in my past life. My 2 cents.


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## rick smith

good post Jim 

real world anecdotes vs hard science has always been at odds ... real progress has usually come from a mixture of both and i'm a believer in both. to discount one or the other seems narrow minded to me


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## Jim Delbridge

I agree to a point, rick, But......, it's been my experience that the telling of the anecdote changes with the audience and some times, like a good fish story, gets more unbelievable.

Here's an example. My first working dog, Dax, and I started when it was believed that a working dog must be a jack-of-all-trades dog, i.e. live find, trailing, cadaver. Dax got a six-month foundation in trailing and about a trail a month after that with most trails being 45 minutes old on average. The politics of the team at this time were turning nasty where as the head trainer was enjoying putting dog teams (not in her favor) in situations doomed to failure. The team as a whole was to do demonstrations for a town's fire department in hopes of developing an MOU (Memorandum of Understanding) with the town. I was told that day that my dog and I were to demonstrate a trail to victim. Start was through a junk yard, to woods, over moss covered rocky slope for about 1/2 mile. Three of us were given similar trails with the head trainer's husband having the most clear cut trail and the most experienced trailing dog. 
Having realized sometime back what was going on, several of the dog teams were training together on the sly to train above and beyond team standards, but my path was going HRD already at this time. To have refused the trail would have been tantamount to team suicide. I was given a flanker that was a nice guy, but also the head trainer's brother-in-law. Fortune would have it that it was a foggy day with low winds, i.e. a trailer's dream. My game plan was to observe my dog's behavior and to re-start here at last point I observed she was on task when I'd see her with the lost look. I restarted her three times. Each time my flanker was telling me that we were totally off (he was as blind as I was to where the victim was located, so I pretty much kept his whining as a dim noise in the background). My dog took me to rock ledges where I had to lift her up three times to ledges five feet and we'd continue on. Each time I lifted her up, the flanker was telling me this was ludicrous. At the end, she walked over to a spot on top of the rocks, looks down, and barks with a wagging tail and looking at me. The flanker blows out a frustrated sigh and responds, "what now?" I walk over to my dog and the victim is in a hole in the rocks some five feet down. We had to help her out.

Now the point to his is not to say how my dog rocked. The point is that all the way back to base, this flanker is bragging on the radio how Dax was the most awesome trailing dog. After the fact, the team asked me if we wanted to work primarily trails and I strongly declined. I didn't say why, just said I thought HRD was the best fit for us. Oh, the maturity of the trail was 4 hours old, more than we'd done in the past at team trainings. From the trailers I know now, it would have been considered an easy trail and very workable. But, two years later the flanker was now telling the story as it was a 2-mile trail, a sunny day, strong winds......as I said, a great fish story. I personally don't care to brag. My focus is the find or proving a negative, nothing more and nothing less. I have to know the limitations of my dogs to achieve that goal. I don't care if anyone wants to learn from me for glory or monetary gain, so there's really no reason to embellish. But, that being said, the bulk of the dog world does not follow that mind set and claims of long old trails need to be proven and documented by double blinds in similar conditions.


Jim Delbridge


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## Meg O'Donovan

Jim, hoping not to derail this thread, but your post gave something for me to ask:
How does fog affect scent? 
Does it trap it low and without wind keep it more concentrated in one place? I haven't thought or read about the situation with fog before. I know that humidity is a desired condition, so fog is very high humidity. Are there any other aspects that fog brings to the behavior of scent?


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## Jim Delbridge

Trailers can probably give you a better perspective, but it works the same for HRD. Fog lays down a coating of moisture on everything. Scent sources moves past the moisure, scent sticks to everything in its wake. As fog isn't heavy enough moisture to wash scent away it stays for a long time for the dog to pick up.

Jim


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## rick smith

agree 100% Jim
after 24 yrs in the navy i've heard my share of "anecdotes" and told a few of my own. only difference was we call em "sea stories" 
- hang around any bar with a bunch of retirees at happy hour and it's non stop //lol//

i'm sure all the movies showing packs of BH's tracking fence jumpers thru the swamps in looosiana has helped build their rep too

hard to accurately study something you can't really see or measure, especially when the one doing it can't talk and give a running account of what they're doing either 

there was an interesting Japanese TV documentary here showing a BH team from the states and a GSD team from Ja who flew to Europe and did a comparison of how each canine team did an urban track


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## Sarah Platts

Jim Delbridge said:


> Trailers can probably give you a better perspective, but it works the same for HRD. Fog lays down a coating of moisture on everything. Scent sources moves past the moisure, scent sticks to everything in its wake. As fog isn't heavy enough moisture to wash scent away it stays for a long time for the dog to pick up.
> 
> Jim


When you are running a trailing dog, once the dog has the start he’s in scent and working it. He’s not having to scout around and find it. He’s already got it. Fog doesn’t seem to make much of a difference until I get to trails where I have to use a calendar – not a clock – to measure the age of.

What I do see is that working in foggy conditions are easier on both dog and handler. Is because foggy conditions are normally cooler? Is it because fog contains lots of ambient moisture so that the dog’s nose and mouth don’t dry out as fast? I think it helps because the air the dog is pulling in is already hydrated which makes less work for the nose because then it doesn’t have to spend time and energy doing this. 
Working urban trails are easier because the concrete and asphalt are cooler on the feet and not creating a scent inversion due to the heat. Now if I drop the lead and turn it into an off-lead airscent problem then fog makes for bigger scent pools which helps when covering large acreage problems.


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