# coccidiosis



## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

ok, here's the story: my new pup's breeder had a mild outbreak of cocci in the litter. "mild" meaning her vet told her that normally he wouldn't even reco treating the pups except they were going to their new homes, plus said breeder is all about openess with her pup buyers. the pups that went home 10 days ago at 7 wks were offered breeder-paid vet care/treatment.

my pup, Edge, has been treated for the requisite 10 days, has had 3 perfectly normal BM's (we just got home last night). he was treated w/sulfamethazine sodium 12.5%. when i called my vet to schedule his 72-hr check up (monday morning), she was concerned about the cocci being due to nasty kennel conditions, but i had had my sister (breeder/handler/trainer of working labs) go check them out 3 weeks ago, and she was satisfied, and when we arrived sat a.m. to pick the pup up, i was satisfied. these ppl care about their animals, and are heavily involved in training.

so i have a couple of questions. one, i'm assuming (and actually WILL) that it's a good idea to re-inoculate his gut w/some live-culture yogurt. secondly, he'll get wormed again tomorrow, so should i wait for that (the yogurt) until, oh, say wednesday? does it matter?

then, he's due for his second shots next week late in the week. should i hold off on them or not? one reason i'm a bit concerned about that is b/c the breeder's vet comes to her place, she doesn't take her dogs/pups to the office, and i read somewhere (here?) that a pup has a 30% chance of being exposed to parvo until theygo to the vet's office, at which time it becomes 100%. and parvo spooks me.

his first vax was distemper/adenovirus/parainfluenza/parvo at 6 wks-a wk b/f the cocci was dx. 

thoughts/advice? am i worrying too much/micromanaging/overthinking? (a fault of mine....)


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## David Scholes (Jul 12, 2008)

Warning: These are just my thoughts. You do what makes sense to you.

I wouldn't worry if the stools are solid and the puppy is energetic. I prefer to buy my vaccinations from the store and do them myself to avoid the vet visits and exposure to who knows what diseases at least until they are a little older.

I'm beginning to worry sometimes about too sterile an environment and food. General filth is bad but seems like those who go to the opposite extreme sometimes have more problems when their dogs (or kids) get exposed. I feed my dogs fresh & frozen poultry and rabbit guts fairly frequently from a young age and they've done well. Also, with all the farms surrounding me with a variety of critters and their droppings, they get inoculated pretty well.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

If you possibly can, *delay worming him*. Worming a pup creates the perfect conditions for cocci to flourish. Make sure the cocci is gone before worming.

Cocci is nearly impossible to erridicate from a kennel. If I remember correctly, the only way to get rid of it is treating all dogs (even those without sysmptoms), steam sterilizing everything in the kennel. I think straight-up ammonia kills it off too. It stays in the ground for 10 years or so.

I wouldn't consider the presence of cocci to mar a breeder's reputation, on the condition that the breeder is forthcoming and is proactively treating the pups.

If I'm bringing a pup into a vet, I call ahead the week of and the day of to be sure that no parvo dogs have been in the clinic. Freaks me out.


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## Sue DiCero (Sep 2, 2006)

I would do the organic yogurt or kefir. We do that normally with puppies and adults.

We also wait a bit in bewteen worming and vaccinations.....


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

so, he's been wormed at 2, 4, and 6 wks. how long to wait b/f worming again then? and still yet, what about his 9-wk vax? to do, or wait til 12 wks?

he's a happy energetic pup, he's only going in tomorrow for the required 72 hr check per the purchase contract (i'll call early and check on parvo pups before him-thanks!). 

david, i generally also do my own vax (i can even do rabies myself here), but in this case per above, i have to also protect myself, so he's going to see dr. laurie tomorrow.


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## Sue DiCero (Sep 2, 2006)

I would do the 1st visit per the contract with the vet. That is what we require as well.

Even though we do the wormings, we ask for a fecal at the 1st vet visit to ensure all OK. I would see if you could wait until the 10 weeks on the vacs - talk to the vet. Ours is pretty good on our schedule.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

> so, he's been wormed at 2, 4, and 6 wks. how long to wait b/f worming again then?


Wait until you have a negative stool sample for cocci.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

thanks for the input ladies--it's much appreciated!!! 

i'll take a fecal w/me for them to examine for worms+cocci tomorrow, and talk to the vet about waiting til 10 wks for the next vax, as fr what i've read, it may actually confer some immunity at that point. plus the wait will give me a chance (assuming he's cocci-free at this point) to get his gut bacteria in shape again. he won't be going out socializing at this point, so re-infections shouldn't be a problem. i hope.

oh--just thought of this--the little booger has discovered horse/rabbit poop and loves it--i've been guiding him to "low-poop" areas, but will this be a prob? i mean, come on, he lives here, they live here, and he's gonna get into some of it, if nothing else at midnight when i can't see what he's really doing (eating poop or tearing off a dandelion deadhead). and he ALWAYS has his nose to the ground (which i like a lot)!!


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I wouldn't worm him again, unless a fecal showed he was actually positive for worms. No point in stressing his system if there isn't even anything in there. And since he's been wormed multiple times already, I would expect him to be worm free at this point, as long as the wormer was something like Panacur and not one that only did one type of worms. 

As far as the vaccines go, if you are really concerned you can always go with a Parvo only vaccine, and hold off on the others until later. It's still a stress to the system, but not as big of a stress as a 5, 6 or 7 in 1 shot.


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## Sharon Adams (Nov 6, 2007)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I wouldn't worm him again, unless a fecal showed he was actually positive for worms. No point in stressing his system if there isn't even anything in there. And since he's been wormed multiple times already, I would expect him to be worm free at this point, as long as the wormer was something like Panacur and not one that only did one type of worms.
> 
> As far as the vaccines go, if you are really concerned you can always go with a Parvo only vaccine, and hold off on the others until later. It's still a stress to the system, but not as big of a stress as a 5, 6 or 7 in 1 shot.


 My feelings exactly .


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## David Scholes (Jul 12, 2008)

ann freier said:


> ... oh--just thought of this--the little booger has discovered horse/rabbit poop and loves it--i've been guiding him to "low-poop" areas, but will this be a prob? i mean, come on, he lives here, they live here, and he's gonna get into some of it, if nothing else at midnight when i can't see what he's really doing (eating poop or tearing off a dandelion deadhead). and he ALWAYS has his nose to the ground (which i like a lot)!!


If there is reason to worry then my dog is doomed LOL... and so is every dog that lives in the countryside. I consider it the natural inoculation of the dogs gut. Just today she was exposed to horse, cattle, rabbit, chicken, duck and goose poop... Doomed!


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## Amber Scott Dyer (Oct 30, 2006)

i don't think coccidia is a sign of a bad kennel. just like ringworm in catteries, once it gets started, it's nearly impossible to get rid of. I've known of one really good kennel and one actually conscientious pet store that had a horrible time with it and had to treat all their puppies routinely afterwards. they followed all cleaning and treatment protocols. 

the live yogurt or probiotics are never a bad idea; i'd never really heard of the effectiveness of probiotic cultures on protozoan infections. i guess i should do some reading


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

i wouldn't even be worried about parvo if i wasn't taking him to a vet's office, sad to say....and i wouldn't be worried about cocci except i've never had it as an issue in a pup; cattle-no biggie, and truly, in a pup no biggie except, at his age, how it'll affect vax--i don't want to vax him until he's at least 95%....it's kind of a catch-22. 

and i want to walk into the vet's office tomorrow morning telling her what's to be done vs her telling me. or at least be armed w/info to present my side of the argument. you all are helping me form my argument and for that--THANKS (giving)!!! haha-made a joke


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Dogs love horse and rabbit poop because they are what's called hind gut fermenters, so unlike ruminants (fore gut fermenters), their bacteria in their large colon does the majority of the breakdown. So rabbits and horses actually are less efficient and lose nutrients out of their stool. That's why rabbits have two types of poop, one of which they eat. It's like chewing cud out the other end. YUM! That's likely why dogs are so drawn to it. If your horses are wormed reguarly so there's no parasites and the dogs are on a monthly dewormer like Heartgard or Advantage Multi, it's probably not a huge deal.

Coccidia is hard to get rid of. Along with the treatment, I'd second or third the yogurt idea. I like Stonyfield Organic (which I think you can get at Wal-Mart, although ours is often out of the plain) and Mountain High. Some of the kibble have probiotics added in (Innova and EVO do, off the top of my head, probably other over the counter ones do too), but eh, the more the merrier. Was at an Iams lunch week before last and their low residue veterinary diet (with probiotics) were shown to help diarrhea and loose stools within a few days, which I guess is good (I'm not so interested in the brand as the research). So couldn't hurt.

For giving your own vaccines from a feed store or from a catalogue, there's no guarantee that they are stored properly as to be viable. Buyer beware on those. If you absolutely must give your own, only give single tank doses (i.e.-each vial=one vaccine). Multidose tanks, though cheaper if you have multiple animals or a litter to vaccinate, may leave you with hardly any organism in one dose and a ton in another, which is obviously not desireable. Even though they are still sold in feed stores and catalogues and some vets still give them this way, we are taught not to give multi dose tanks.


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## Russ Spencer (Jun 2, 2008)

I can't really add much to what has been said about the cocci problem and tx, but as to vaccinations, I came across a very lengthy article that said most, if not all, of the major US vet schools have adopted a protocol of 8, 12 and 16 wks - with a 'booster' at 16 months. Because the article is so very long, if anyone is interested, please feel free to go to my website and read it in the "Breeder's Blog" on the right side of the home page. Of course there are many personal preferences re vaccinations also.

I don't do the yogurt thing, for no particular reason, but I do use acidopholus powder in their food to add 'good' bacteria after deworming and other anti-biotic therapies.

Obviously, a vet visit is required by the contract and calling ahead re parvo is justified. My vet's people are accustomed to washing the table again in my presence. My pups are carried in and out - always.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

maren, i've read that virtually every dog has been exposed to cocci; the trick is to let the dog build it's own defense against it w/o having a clinical reaction. given my situation, or any, really, is a completely negative cocci possible or even desirable?

as i understand it, Edge living in the "world" will be constantly exposed to it, esp in the "wilds of NE". therefore, a clean cocci test, to me, simply means he'll have to deal with it next week. leads to my catch-22....


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Well, that's true and it's not true. We are taught to vaccinate for the individual dog. For some dogs in an area where parvo is highly endemic and there is a question of transfer of maternal antibodies from the colostrum (which is more important in horses and cattle than dogs and cats), it may be desireable to do a parvo only at 5-6 weeks. But, in general, the 8, 12, 16 weeks is fine. Getting a titer for parvo/distemper at 18-20 weeks may also be desireable if you wish to follow a minimal vaccination protocol. 

Which probiotic powder do you use? There seems to be some question now about how beneficial Lactobacillus acidophilus is in dogs. I've good things about Forti Flora and Culturelle (which is a human preparation), but I believe the Bifidibacterium genus (can't remember which species) did well in the dog's GI tract. Anyways, I can't remember exactly which so don't quote me on that. 

Ann, you're likely right that it's ubquitous in the environment and it generally only affects puppies. A negative fecal is probably not necessarily indicative that they are 100% clear as the organisms are rather small on a microscope slide and they may not have been in that particular sample for whatever reason. A negative fecal is probably a good start though. Sorry I can't be of more help on that. We've had parasitology, but it wasn't quite as clinically relevant as I'd like...lots of memorization of life cycles. :roll:


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## Tiffany Geisen (Nov 4, 2008)

The clinic I work at vaccinates at 8, 12, and 16 with a follow up at 6 months. We generally do not count vaccinations give by breeders at 6 weeks old as part of there puppy series. Sometimes at 6 weeks old the puppies are still carrying their natural antibodies passed on by their mother and won't begin to make their own antibodies. I live in Parvo central and work with it everyday (had a four year old parvo positive dog come in last night), I have a 17 week old mal pup and lived in fear that I was going to bring it home or him be exposed on a trip to work with me. I followed a very strict vaccination protocol and he has made it through this far with no problem. I even lucked out cuz at 13 weeks old he had a play session with a coworkers 13week old mastiff who turned up with parvo 1 week later. Mastiff was vaccinated but not with vaccines from our clinic. Yes you could buy vaccines from the feed store and give them yourself but there is no gaurantee of how the vaccines are handled. If they aren't kept at the correct temperature the vaccine becomes ineffective. Also the cheap vaccines at feed stores have a higher percentage rate of allergic reactions. As for coccidia ( cocci is actually the term used for pneumococcus or the bacteria commonly found in ears) we only treat a dog that has a heavy infestation and showing clinical signs like diarrhea. I often see a single coccidia in perfectly healthy older dogs that never show clinical symptoms.


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## Russ Spencer (Jun 2, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Well, that's true and it's not true. We are taught to vaccinate for the individual dog. For some dogs in an area where parvo is highly endemic and there is a question of transfer of maternal antibodies from the colostrum (which is more important in horses and cattle than dogs and cats), it may be desireable to do a parvo only at 5-6 weeks. But, in general, the 8, 12, 16 weeks is fine. Getting a titer for parvo/distemper at 18-20 weeks may also be desireable if you wish to follow a minimal vaccination protocol.
> 
> Which probiotic powder do you use? There seems to be some question now about how beneficial Lactobacillus acidophilus is in dogs. I've good things about Forti Flora and Culturelle (which is a human preparation), but I believe the Bifidibacterium genus (can't remember which species) did well in the dog's GI tract. Anyways, I can't remember exactly which so don't quote me on that.
> 
> Ann, you're likely right that it's ubquitous in the environment and it generally only affects puppies. A negative fecal is probably not necessarily indicative that they are 100% clear as the organisms are rather small on a microscope slide and they may not have been in that particular sample for whatever reason. A negative fecal is probably a good start though. Sorry I can't be of more help on that. We've had parasitology, but it wasn't quite as clinically relevant as I'd like...lots of memorization of life cycles. :roll:


Maren, for some reason I neglected to mention that I do give the Parvo standalone at 6 wks. The acidopholus powder I use is from Thomas Labs and it is the lactobacillus and I get it in by the pound. lol. It works wonders on most instances of diarrhea. When I notice it, I add the acidopholus and by the next morning the dog is back to solid or very near it.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I have had dogs with coccidia a few times. I shoot squirrels for them to get them gun broke. They get the squirrels to play with and eat. On one occassion, the squirrel was gone and I had assumed they ate it. It was summer time. I change the water in the 20 gal tubs every 2 days and when I dumped the tub....there was the remains of the squirrel. It was hot and the water was contami nated. Every dog in the yard had the hershery squirts and some were obviously hurting.....standing with their backs arched. I went down to the feed store and picked up a few envelopes of Tetracycline Hydrochloride. It is a water treatment so all dogs are treated at the same time. It is basically used for cattle with scours. Cleared all the dogs up in a few days.
Regarding the talk about parvo. It is in the environment. I have had bouts with it but it would be virtually impossible to sterilize my dog yards as they are. If you can't control the environment, I had two choices....either quit breeding or breed the dogs to withstand to parvo. Last summer I raised a litter of 11 in one of the yards. The pups were penned and there were some 12 week old pups in the same yard that came down with parvo. They slept against the wire to the puppy pen. None of the 11 ever was sick. I lost one pup to parvo a couple of weeks ago. There were 8 pups in that litter and were 12 weeks also. It had no effect on the other 7 pups. By losing that one pup, I now know it takes two shots to keep my pups from getting it. rather than one. By the time you see parvo, all the pups have been exposed so you either learn how to beat it, or you breed in a controlable environment or you quit breeding.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

so, the rest of the story. his fecal evidently showed more cocci than the vet liked, and, due to the fact that he was backing off his medicated water, he's on panacur/albon orally for five days. then, a week from friday, he'll get his "8 wk" vax (at 10 wks). so he'll be a little behind on vax, but i think that'll be ok as he won't be "going out" until after his second round.

thanks everyone for all the input


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