# Evo and Innova dog food



## Daniel Cox (Apr 17, 2006)

Just wanted to get opinions on these two dog foods. I feed a RAW but use the Evo Large bites to help supplement and when traveling. I currently give a leg quarter, a mixture of veggies ground up, and salmon oil nightly. I also add in some Evo Large bites on my male because I have had trouble adding weight on him. The Evo large bites are grain free but the high protein does concern me.

Opinions on these two dog foods would be greatly appreciated.

http://www.evopet.com/products/default.asp?id=1485
http://www.innovapet.com/products/default.asp?id=1

If you have another dry food that would be good as a supplement and during tavel then please suggest.

FYI..
Since I have feed a RAW/grain free diet the coats and skin issues om my GSD's have disappeared. I have been feeding the diet for about 6-8 months. The overall health is very good. Their are no issues with the stool . The mostly RAW diet with grain free dog food has really helped my dogs health IMHO.


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Daniel Cox said:


> Just wanted to get opinions on these two dog foods. I feed a RAW but use the Evo Large bites to help supplement and when traveling. I currently give a leg quarter, a mixture of veggies ground up, and salmon oil nightly. I also add in some Evo Large bites on my male because I have had trouble adding weight on him. The Evo large bites are grain free but the high protein does concern me.
> 
> Opinions on these two dog foods would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> ...


High meat protein does not concern me. The dog's system is designed to process meat, bones, and fat, plus a little bit of produce. The kidney-protein myth has been argued against by *many* authoritative vets/researchers.

Grain protein is a problem. It's a problem for the pancreas, which does not naturally produce the grain-digesting enzymes in the quantities needed to digest daily grain-heavy food. We do produce lots of amylase (starting in the saliva, in fact), but dogs do not, because grain is not their natural diet. They can live on pretty much anything, as scavengers, but their systems, from the teeth to the intestines, are designed for prey.


----------



## Daniel Cox (Apr 17, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> High meat protein does not concern me. The dog's system is designed to process meat, bones, and fat, plus a little bit of produce. The kidney-protein myth has been argued against by *many* authoritative vets/researchers.
> 
> Grain protein is a problem. It's a problem for the pancreas, which does not naturally produce the grain-digesting enzymes in the quantities needed to digest daily grain-heavy food. We do produce lots of amylase (starting in the saliva, in fact), but dogs do not, because grain is not their natural diet. They can live on pretty much anything, as scavengers, but their systems, from the teeth to the intestines, are designed for prey.


Thanks Connie. I kinda figured that but did not know how to put the science behind it.


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Daniel Cox said:


> FYI..
> Since I have feed a RAW/grain free diet the coats and skin issues om my GSD's have disappeared. I have been feeding the diet for about 6-8 months. The overall health is very good. Their are no issues with the stool . The mostly RAW diet with grain free dog food has really helped my dogs health IMHO.


Yes..... this is the typical result from giving biologically appropriate food (meat instead of corn).  

I also keep THK (one of the grain-free versions, like Embark) on hand for travel, because it's light-weight (dehydrated) and because it's digested fast -- more like meat than like kibble. You can add fresh RMBs or meat to it.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Daniel, another option is some of the "95%" canned foods out there. Innova EVO makes 95% canned venison, rabbit, beef, chicken, and duck (maybe one more) and Nature's Variety Instinct has a venison, rabbit, and duck (maybe more). Canine Caviar makes a couple others, including a beaver, pheasant, and venison tripe for the more exotic tastes. I use the Innova EVO and Nature's Variety Instinct when I am traveling and don't want to go buy meat.


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Daniel, another option is some of the "95%" canned foods out there.


Wellness Core is one of them, too. No grains, 95% meat.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I've just been reading up on the EVO and Wellness canned foods. Because of their much lower protien and fat content are these more of a supliment to their dry food?


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> I've just been reading up on the EVO and Wellness canned foods. Because of their much lower protien and fat content are these more of a supliment to their dry food?


Can you link me? 

The only thing I can think of with, say, Wellness Core (no grain, 95% meat) is that you might be reading protein and fat % by weight. Canned food has the food's natural water still in it, so it's much heavier than kibble.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

That makes sense. Most all canned foods are about 80% water. That seems damned expensive per lb..
Here's the page.
http://www.evopet.com/products/default.asp?id=1493


----------



## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

how to compare foods on a DM basis
http://www.thepetcenter.com/imtop/dm.html


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Cool! Thanks Lynn!
Would these 95% all meat foods follow the same procedure as to NOT mixing them with kibble?


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Aprox 75% moisture in a 13.2 oz can. Ok, I'm lousy at math but this figures out to be aprox 4+ ounces of VERY expensive dog food per can. What am I missing?
So how many cans per meal would it take to feed an 80 lb dog?


----------



## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

figure out how many calories you want to feed the dog
http://www.phouka.com/dogs/dog_amount.html#cal_req - 
then calculate the calories in the food 
fat = 9 cal/g
carb = 4 cal/g
protein = 4 cal/g


----------



## Jose' Abril (Dec 6, 2007)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Wellness Core is one of them, too. No grains, 95% meat.


I use Wellness Core dry and it is awesome!!!


----------



## kim guidry (Jan 11, 2008)

Could I get some opinions on Blackwood dog food? I found a local place that caries Innova as well as Blackwood. I am in the process of learning more about RAW diet but until I wanted some input on a quality dry food. Thanks. www.blackwoodpetfood.com They carried Blackwood 1000,2000 and 7000.


----------



## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Blackwood is not a food that I would consider to be a high quality one. They do not use specific meat proteins, use corn as a main ingredient, use wheat flour, and they put menadione (synthetic vitamin K) in their foods. 

On the Dog Food Analysis web site, the Blackwood 1000 and 2000 foods only get 2 out of a possible 6 star rating, which puts them in the same category as Authority (PetsMart's brand), Black Gold, Eukanuba, Nutro, Royal Canin, & Science Diet Nature's Best (regular Science Diet only gets 1 star). 

Not a food I would feed or recommend, but that's jmho.


----------



## Will Kline (Jan 10, 2008)

Ok, so what do you people think about this food? I posted a link for reference.

http://timberwolforganics.com/pet-foods

It seems to work well for my guys but since there is a wealth of knowledgeable people here I figured I would ask. 

I mix the ocean blue and the wild n natural dry. Can't afford to go RAW just yet but I do add chicken legs, thighs and ground beef to the diet as well.


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Will Kline said:


> Ok, so what do you people think about this food? I posted a link for reference.
> 
> http://timberwolforganics.com/pet-foods
> 
> ...


One possible problem I just became aware of:

Whole Dog Journal's annual review (this month) of dry foods added a new section because of the huge recalls of foods with ingredients or the actual food itself coming from other countries (like China) and being toxic: They listed the manufacturers who would not reveal where their food was manufactured. Timberwolf was one of them.

That doesn't mean anything is necessarily wrong, of course. Just FYI.


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Cool! Thanks Lynn!
> Would these 95% all meat foods follow the same procedure as to NOT mixing them with kibble?


No. They are not raw, so even if the kibble slows their natural digestion time, no matter.

JMO.


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> One possible problem I just became aware of:
> 
> Whole Dog Journal's annual review (this month) of dry foods added a new section because of the huge recalls of foods with ingredients or the actual food itself coming from other countries (like China) and being toxic: They listed the manufacturers who would not reveal where their food was manufactured. Timberwolf was one of them.
> 
> That doesn't mean anything is necessarily wrong, of course. Just FYI.


Ny the way, before I learned this, I considered it a good food, and I was unhappy to learn this.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> No. They are not raw, so even if the kibble slows their natural digestion time, no matter.
> 
> JMO.


With it not being raw, is it then lacking in the enzimes that seem so important in a raw diet?


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> With it not being raw, is it then lacking in the enzimes that seem so important in a raw diet?


Oh yeah. It's well-cooked, like any canned food.

Not as cooked as kibble, which has to be dried, extruded, etc., to give it an almost-indefinite shelf-life.


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

So why is canned better in any way? To me, it's better because it contains the moisture the food is supposed to have, but that might not convince me to spend the money on what is basically water.

What would convince me more is that the single opened can doesn't give the food the opportunity to let the sprayed-on fats oxidize (become rancid) and lose vitamins due to air and heat damage, and otherwise become compromised while it sits in the open bag.

Used to be that canned was the only commercial food that could be made with minimal or no grains, but that's no longer the case.

I do not agree with the people who contend that kibble "cleans the dog's teeth" any more than I think that cereal or crackers clean mine.

So: I'd add no-grain canned (or use all canned) if I had a dog whose kidneys were compromised, if I was feeding kind of a grainy kibble and wanted to improve it with additions, etc. --- or if I just wanted to improve the palatibility of kibble for the dog.

All JMO.


----------



## Will Kline (Jan 10, 2008)

The shipping information indicates that Timberwolf Organics comes from KY.


----------



## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

But that doesn't tell you the source of their ingredients. 


On top of that, they have changed all of their formulas, and it looks to _me_ like they are not changed for the better. Of course, the price has remained the same...


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Will Kline said:


> The shipping information indicates that Timberwolf Organics comes from KY.


I believe that's where it's distributed from. But even if it's where it's produced (or where some is produced), as Kristen says, they won't say where the it's all manufactured or where the ingredients originate. What they choose not to disclose is where their ingredients come from and/or where the food is produced.... just no reply to either question.

A couple of small manufacturers chose not to divulge where their food was produced, but did present info on where all their ingredients came from. They maintained that they wanted to keep their exclusive relationship with co-packers.

A few, including Timberwolf, would not respond to any of the origin questions.

Again, they may just hate Whole Dog Journal, or feel that it's proprietary info, or whatever. 

For example, Newman's Own Organics, although it released all kinds of info about every ingredient, refused to say who did the actual manufacturing/packing. I happen to know where it's produced, but that's strictly a coincidence because it's right nearby. Otherwise, it might give me pause, since the problems in the huge recalls involved ingredients from China (and a couple of other countries) and/or companies that put their name on a product that they had no idea of how it was made or where the ingredients originated.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I would think it would be a huge selling point to claim thier product came frome anywhere BUT China. G


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> I would think it would be a huge selling point to claim thier product came frome anywhere BUT China.


That's why refusing to answer worries me.

That one tiny ingredient from China that poisoned so many dogs..... 


It does seem to me that the only way to be taint-free is to say where every one of your ingredients comes from and where the food is produced.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I do not agree with the people who contend that kibble "cleans the dog's teeth" any more than I think that cereal or crackers clean mine.


This is absolutely true. One of our nutrition class guest lecturers on basic dentistry said that 85% of dogs over 3 years of age have periodontal disease (he suspected it was actually higher!). This makes it THE most common disease in dogs out there. Thinking that kibble or Milkbones (blargh!) are any better for their teeth is just plain wrong and he said so. Now, a few manufacturers have developed kibble that they say is clinically proven to reduce tartar buildup, such as Purina Veterinary Diet DH. However, it is incredibly expensive and the ingredients are junk. It's better to be on better ingredients and provide a recreational bone a few times a week or get in the habit of brushing every day or every other day (once a week is pretty ineffectual). I prefer the raw diet way. This is Buck, my 10-12ish year old Siberian husky/Rottweiler mix. When I got him about 2.5 years ago, his teeth were in a wretched state with all sorts of calculus and tartar, he's got a underbite (looks like a bulldog when you lift up his lips), and his canines were worn down, probably from fence chewing. The pictures aren't too good because he likes to squirrel around a bit, but here are his teeth now:


----------



## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Those are some beautiful teeth!


----------



## kim guidry (Jan 11, 2008)

Do you think genetics within a breed have any thing to do with some dogs teeth staying cleaner than others? I had a Samoyed for 15 years and I never had a problem or had to have his teeth cleaned. On the other hand, I had a greyhound whose teeth I could never keep clean.


----------



## Pauline Michels (Sep 1, 2006)

JMHO.....recreational bones are very strong contributors to worn down teeth. I base this opinion on observations of my own dogs and their various lifestyles. I've since decided to give them raw meaty bones that they can fully consume or large bones they can work on for awhile and then I take them away.

Whaddya think?


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Yes, that can be absolutely true. One of the clinical nutrition residents doesn't recommend anything hard at all, not even nylabones. I personally don't mind and I think it depends on the dog. Some dogs are just determined to get that marrow, darn it, and they can crack every tooth in their head trying to get it. Some are much more dainty and like just gnawing the meat off the bone and aren't that into gnawing the actual bone all that much. Most dogs are somewhere in between. It's a lot of discretion. If you notice wear and tear, certainly cut down or switch to filled Kongs or a softer bone (which is why I typically take the bone away once they've gotten it down past the end of the knuckle bone).


----------



## Ron Swart (Jun 7, 2007)

I've been feeding Solid Gold: Barking at the Moon. Anyone else using this?

http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_reviews/showproduct.php/product/892/sort/8/cat/8/page/2


----------



## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Ron Swart said:


> I've been feeding Solid Gold: Barking at the Moon. Anyone else using this?
> 
> http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_reviews/showproduct.php/product/892/sort/8/cat/8/page/2


A GSD I'm long-term "babysitting" eats this food. Seems to work out pretty well for him compared to the grain-based foods (he bloated and had severe bowel problems on those). A lot of folks I know in USAR feed this food as well.


----------



## Pauline Michels (Sep 1, 2006)

I feed twice a day....a raw meal and a kibble meal. Kibble is Barking at the Moon right now. So far so good and I think I'm seeing him keep a few extra pounds on with this food. He was dropping weight with Evo. I think they're both good foods though. It just depends on what works for a particular dog.

To think there was a time when we just plopped down a bowl of food.............


----------

