# Crating dogs for extended periods



## Guest (Apr 22, 2008)

*Re: Pet Quality out of working lines*



> Could you live in a box for 8 hours? No, no one could and there is my point.


Wha...?

The cubic area which I occupy during sleep is proportionatly smaller than the [over sized] crate my dog sleeps in. During shut-eye I wouldn't know or care if someone erected 4 vertical surfaces around me (in closer proximity than the bedroom walls, that is).

Could you expand on why this practice is damaging or upsetting?

Edit: Sorry Lyn. You covered the sleep thing. What you said.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

*Re: Pet Quality out of working lines*



Michelle Kehoe said:


> "I'd be more concerned about the quality time the dog is getting. Better a dog in a crate for 8 hours that goes out and gets totally exhausted and have loads of fun, than a kennel dog that gets about 15 minutes of interaction because owner justifies being in a kennel as part of exercise."
> 
> Thank you Lyn, you got my point!


That's for damn sure. People think because they have a nice big yard the dog doesn't need to be exercised. All that yard is nothing more than a big toilet, for most dogs. A dog that is interacted with, trained AND TIRED, is happy as a clam sleeping for 8 hours in his crate AKA den.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

*Re: Pet Quality out of working lines*



Howard Gaines III said:


> Kristen there is a BIG difference in a kennel that is 6 x 12+/- and a crate that's 24" x 30".


My crates are 40 x 27. :razz: That gives my dogs plenty of room to stretch out in. Even the next size down (which is 36 x 24; 144"sq larger than the dimensions you gave) is sufficient, but I prefer the larger crate for the specific reason that they are going to be in it for more than just a few hours. Even those that I _can_ leave loose in the house spend most of the day laying around, so what's the difference between laying in the kitchen floor and laying in a crate?

Out in the kennel, or even with the full run of the back yard, all they do is pace back and forth either across front of the kennel, or along the length of the back of my house - even though they have the entire back yard, which is around 1/4 acre. The only time they stop pacing is when the neighbors let their Boston Terrier out and it comes over to the fence and they all have to try and kill each other through the fence, or if a car drives by and they chase it the length of the fence. Then they go right back to their pacing. Of course, with tending being the original purpose of the breed, that kind of makes sense, but still. I'd rather they not spend all day trotting idly back and forth. Makes 'em too hungry, which makes my food bill go up! :lol:



> Better a dog in a crate for 8 hours that goes out and gets totally exhausted and have loads of fun, than a kennel dog that gets about 15 minutes of interaction because owner justifies being in a kennel as part of exercise.


Amen.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

*Re: Pet Quality out of working lines*



Kristen Cabe said:


> Amen.


I agree as well. My dogs except the youngest are all out when left alone, but my oldest is in the crate almost non-stop by his choice. My youngest also "puts himself to bed" by walking in and out of the door of the crate to signal that to me that he "needs" his late night biscuit for crating up for the night. When I get home, they all know we are usually going to go out and play in the lake, go running off leash on the trails while I am riding the bike, etc. 

I too would rather have a well tired out dog that was crated all day otherwise than out in the kennel with just a little exercise or contact. Not saying you do this Howard, but for some people, kennel or backyard dogs are "out of sight, out of mind." :???: The backyard is neither a babysitter nor a treadmill, which is why I always always annoyed when some rescue groups *require* a fenced in yard to adopt a dog when my dogs without a fenced yard likely get much more exercise than theirs. We still are putting one up though hopefully this spring. :mrgreen:


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

*Re: Pet Quality out of working lines*



Kristen Cabe said:


> Out in the kennel, or even with the full run of the back yard, all they do is pace back and forth either across front of the kennel, or along the length of the back of my house - even though they have the entire back yard, which is around 1/4 acre.


 
Same here... Except out in the yard without me, the mals jog a path from one back door, to the other back door, to the large sliding window, to the third back door. Same thing in the kennel, around and around, non stop. The 6 month old gets very vocal after a while, too. They would much rather be in the house, they calm down and sleep in the crates.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

*Re: Pet Quality out of working lines*

Glad I'm not a working dog that "lives" in a crate for 8-10 hours a day!
If you have to crate them inside for that amount of time instead of being in a kennel to run and see things, *why own a dog?* Crate training and short term crate dwelling is one thing, I 100% support it and selll that idea to my dog people; but IMO crating any working dog for 8-10 hours is animal abuse!

Second point, I sleep in a bed and I could care less how much space is over me or to the sides...but for 8-10 hours! I would lose my freaking mind. No wonder pet people call me about dogs with ISSUES! Sorry ladies you can't sell that stuff to me, nope not 8-10 hours worth.[-( 

If a dog is running in a kennel it is getting...exercise! Yes something many fat butt out of shape Americans don't know much about. A feel good walk around the neighborhood for 100 yards isn't doing a thing. Then you go home a ladle up the grub...:-k Dah!

Everyone has their own right to this position, that is a given. But for me and mine, I need moving room and visual excitement, not box style rest. I'll get that soon enough. :twisted: :mrgreen:


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

*Re: Pet Quality out of working lines*

Howard, so people that have to work shouldn't own a dog? That's retarded


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

*Re: Pet Quality out of working lines*



Al Curbow said:


> Howard, so people that have to work shouldn't own a dog? That's retarded


Al if you can't afford to feed a horse, do you buy one anyway? If you aren't a responsible parent, do you let your kids run wild and make poor choices at the expense of others? If you can't give a dog a quality life, why own one, to keep up with the Jones'?

Do you even own a working dog? MY point one more time is simple, *I feel it is wrong to crate a working dog in a small crate for 8-10 hours a day! *Now with that said I am not going to beat this one to death. I think my position is crystal clear. I'm letting others go with it. If you need a PM to clear up points, bring it one. \\/


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

*Re: Pet Quality out of working lines*

Why do it in PM's?? I think its a perfectly valid conversation, I think I might split it off into its own thread though.

I'll do that momentarily, right after I tell Lyka that sleeping on the sofa for 8 hours is OK but doing it in a crate is abusive.


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## Guest (Apr 23, 2008)

*Re: Pet Quality out of working lines*

Yes, but she's not a "working dog".

Difference.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

*Re: Pet Quality out of working lines*

Define "working dog."

If I unleash her on the neighbors sheep, does that count?


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## Guest (Apr 23, 2008)

*Re: Pet Quality out of working lines*

Pet quality. A working dog will not chill out for 8 hours. They need to pace.

Back in olden times, they ran around from dusk til dawn, and then they patrolled the property all night. And by patrol, I mean pace around on their own accord.

We coddle dogs in today's society with extra fluff like sleep.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

*Re: Pet Quality out of working lines*

:lol: Thats BS. The reason working dogs dont sleep is because they get stuck in a kennel where they pace endlessly. If I put Lyka in a kennel she'll pace for 8 hours and drive me crazy.


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

*Re: Pet Quality out of working lines*

No Howard, i've never owned a dog, i'm a cat person, but........ if i did own a dog it's butt would be in a crate till it was house safe while i was at work.


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## Guest (Apr 23, 2008)

*Re: Pet Quality out of working lines*

I see you just argued yourself in a corner. Allow me to finish you off.

She paces all day in a kennel because she's trying to tell you something. Namely, she needs to pace (like she would have done in olden times where man and beast were more spiritually connected).

By forcing her to relax you have diminished her totem spirit, and subsequently your own.

And that, my friend, is abusive.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

*Re: Pet Quality out of working lines*

Well crap. Fine. I'll go stick her in the kennel and leave her there for 8 hours. Then she wont be so mad at me about telling her she's not a working dog.


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

Is totem spirit a drive? LOL


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Al Curbow said:


> Is totem spirit a drive? LOL


It sure is Al. It's one of the "big four" as they call it. Prey Drive. Defense Drive. Fight Drive. Totem Spirit Drive.


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## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

"spiritually connected"

"totem spirit"
:-s

Geez, Steven what are you going to haul out next - group hugs and whale noises?


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

I just nudged layla and asked her what her totem was and she snapped at my foot, bitchy totem or to much crate time as a pup? lol


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

*Re: Pet Quality out of working lines*



Mike Schoonbrood said:


> :lol: Thats BS. The reason working dogs dont sleep is because they get stuck in a kennel where they pace endlessly. If I put Lyka in a kennel she'll pace for 8 hours and drive me crazy.


AAH! So I see some light! If they're in a LARGE kennel, they can move around and get some exercise...good call.:mrgreen: Sure beats 8 hours in a box...:twisted: 
In the 1800's early slave owners had a similar thing to break down the spirit of runaway slaves, a confinement box. :-#


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

*Re: Pet Quality out of working lines*

So pacing endlessly from wall to wall shrieking constantly wanting to get out is better than relaxing in a crate? Bare in mind that she doesn't pace around the house for 8 hours long shrieking wanting to get out, only in the kennel.

I can exhaust the hell out of her, literally tongue hanging out, ears turning red, flat out exhausted, if I throw the ball again she'll go because of drive but will walk back slow as hell because she can't go any more. Then, she will still pace in the kennel run. I personally worry about her dying from heat stroke that way. I'd rather crate her where she can relax and cool off.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

*Re: Pet Quality out of working lines*



Mike Schoonbrood said:


> So pacing endlessly from wall to wall shrieking constantly wanting to get out is better than relaxing in a crate? Bare in mind that she doesn't pace around the house for 8 hours long shrieking wanting to get out, only in the kennel.
> 
> I can exhaust the hell out of her, literally tongue hanging out, ears turning red, flat out exhausted, if I throw the ball again she'll go because of drive but will walk back slow as hell because she can't go any more. Then, she will still pace in the kennel run. I personally worry about her dying from heat stroke that way. I'd rather crate her where she can relax and cool off.


She paces Mike because she LOVES you and wants to make sure you're not up to no good.\\/ A Mal I'll bet!


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Tigers in the Zoo pace too. Does that make them happy? [-(


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Funny you mention that. I was at the zoo in Antwerp last summer and I was watching a tiger. He had a small area to walk around, and a bunch of big flat boulders, then a bunch of water seperating the tiger from the people. I spent 20 minutes watching that tiger retrace his EXACT footing over the boulders back and forth over and over. Literally, I would focus on where his footstep was, and he would consistently place his foot on that exact same spot each and every time. I swear he had OCD or something. He was still doing the same thing on the way out of the zoo.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Sad don't you think? He was focusing his mind on the only thing he could come up with.

I doubt anyone with a working dog feels a walk around the block is sufficient excersize for their dogs. I either play ball after OB until they are close to dropping or load up in the truck, we drive to a country road not far from here and they get to run loose fo as many miles as each dog is fit for. My bigger boned male can't do 1/2 of what my lighter female can do in a day. My male that passsed in August was the fastest GSD I have ever owned or seen at a flat out run. Literally he could snap up squirels and rabbits and keep going. My dogs have allot of fun and I think they are a happy bunch. I can tell when they don't get enough, they wont go in their kennel on the first try. They give me that look (mom you jipped me today) 

I live in a good area for dogs. I'm in town but it's a smaller town with a park 2 houses down, a field for tearing it up and miles and miles of orchards and rice fields. My female will even hunt duck/geese, my little female is showing she can point. They plow through the muddy water better than a Lab. I just love it! My boyfriends parents own 300 acres and we take the dogs shooting, they know what cows are and I hope to get some goats one day and do a little hearding. They will be bringing in their own bacon (RAW) at feeding time. I think if a dog sees a lot of things and gets to smell around enough, they are quite content. I'm on and off with my OB depending where we are with the bitework, so most days we don't use our brains, just stretching the legs so to speak.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Michelle Kehoe said:


> Tigers in the Zoo pace too. Does that make them happy? [-(


Humans are crated in cells, are they happy, stress-free, and relaxed?:mrgreen:


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## Guest (Apr 23, 2008)

After a day of "cracking rocks", yes. Quite.

Really. my sister is a CO. Far less problems when the little juvie bastards get PT before school or down time.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Doesn't that damage their self esteem?:mrgreen:


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## Guest (Apr 23, 2008)

Depends what kind of aerobics the PT instructor makes them do.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Steven Lepic said:


> After a day of "cracking rocks", yes. Quite.


So this puts a new spin on inmates getting their rocks off. Nice!:twisted: :mrgreen:


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

> Michelle Kehoe said:
> 
> 
> > Tigers in the Zoo pace too. Does that make them happy? [-(
> ...


I dont get it?? So you DONT believe in putting the dogs in a kennel run?? Didn't you just say earlier that you would rather a dog be in a kennel run than a crate? She was comparing the tigers at the zoo to a dog pacing in a kennel run. Afterall, its exercise right!????


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

*Re: Pet Quality out of working lines*



Mike Schoonbrood said:


> I can exhaust the hell out of her, literally tongue hanging out, ears turning red, flat out exhausted, if I throw the ball again she'll go because of drive but will walk back slow as hell because she can't go any more. Then, she will still pace in the kennel run. I personally worry about her dying from heat stroke that way. I'd rather crate her where she can relax and cool off.


Good point. Cyko is the same way, the will to keep going untill he kills himself. With the weather here in SoCal, heatstroke is a real issue. Havoc is not so driven, so he MIGHT give up before he collapses of overheating - I hope...


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Can't put 3 liters in a 2 liter bottle. Problems will arise. [-( 

Can't keep an active dog in a crate for 8 hours without issues, the kennel is the better, safer choice. Unless there are dog folks who can't afford the kennel. :-k Me...I have both. The crate is used for hauling them in my ******* truck.\\/


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

Leaving them in a kennel brings up the entire dog theft problem. It's happened to someone on this site but i can't remember who, i know i read it and was bummed out for the person.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Al Curbow said:


> Leaving them in a kennel brings up the entire dog theft problem. It's happened to someone on this site but i can't remember who, i know i read it and was bummed out for the person.


That's why I keep a top on one and locks on all.8-[ 
Folks will take your stuff and not think twice about it.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

From a working dog prospective, I prefer my dog to be kennelled at work in a small space rather than pacing in a larger kennel and barking and obsessing over when I will be coming back.

Main reason...should I need my dog to work, I want him well rested. I am not saying a dog in a large kennel can't come out ready to work, but I prefer mine not to "leak energy" practicing behaviors I don't appove of anyways.

Just one of the torture chambers:


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Can't keep an active dog in a crate for 8 hours without issues, the kennel is the better, safer choice.


This is your opinion, and you are entitled to it. But that doesn't make it right. I've known (most were friends dogs) many dogs who are much better off being crated then kenneled. Dogs that will pace with almost an OCD type behavior when kenneled, to the point of wearing their pads off. Or who will slam into the fence, run to the other end of the kennel, come back, slam into the fence, run to the other end of the kennel, etc. Or dogs that will race in circles until they heatstroke. I've seen dogs with mismatched muscle developement because they spend so many hours in the day pacing in a circle in a kennel, always in the same direction. I have a dog like this, I got her at 8 or 9 (I'm her retirement home) and this behavior was already "set". Not only does she have the mismatched muscle development, but when she see's the chiropractor there are always minor issues on the same side, related to the direction she goes in. If out of the kennel she is quite happy to just hang out, lay in the sun, find a bone to chew, etc. But that's a new behavior, when I got her even out of the kennel she'd pace in a circle in the yard, approx 6 feet wide, I suspect it was the width of her kennel at her previous home. Put her in a crate, and she's quite happy and calm, and just lays about or sleeps.

I also know many dogs who are quite happy in a kennel, lay in the sun, take a nap, etc. 

IMO it really depends on the individual dog, the owner, and their situation. When I lived in Oregon I kenneled all my dogs outside when I was gone, only to discover months after it started that the neighbor kids were climbing my exterior fence and teasing my dogs when I was gone, throwing things at them, trying to poke them with sticks, etc. They also tried to let the dogs out on multiple occasions. Even though I had 4 outdoor kennels, my dogs started spending their time inside when I was gone, crated.

I don't think you can label someone responsible, irresponsible, or say someone should or should not have a dog based on if they crate, kennel, chain, whatever. I think you have to look at the individual situation, the overall care of the dog, is that dog happy/content? If so, then whatever the owner is doing is right for that dog.


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## Sarah ten Bensel (Mar 16, 2008)

In a perfect world, I would love to have my dog in a larger kennel or out "runnin' the farm", I would also like to be able to afford and find the right person to walk him while I am at work, I would like a dog that won't do his own remodeling of my house. Ain't gonna happen. Crated. Period. Guess I am abusing him.
I live in the inner city, won't have him outside inhis own kennel FOR NOTHING! Not with the idiots in my neighborhood. That's abuse?
Can't destroy or injure himself having full run of the house and yard. Abuse?
He's happy as hell and sleeps really most of the day. I guess I am being abusive, huh?
I also believe that crating for my dog helps increase his drive for training-which he needs at this point in his training. He gets a lot of my energy and attention each day. A LOT!


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## Mari Steward (Mar 3, 2008)

I do not believe in crating a dog for extending periods of time, I think that it is abusive. I am away from home for at least 12 hours a day. So, I put them in the backyard or a large bedroom with a large window for access to the outside world. When I get home they train for obedience and take a long run. Being free does not effect their drive. 

I have a puppy now and she spends her day in my master bathroom with the floors lined with newspaper. She usually craps in a corner and has the rest f the bathrom to play with her rubber toys. She does have her crate if she wishes to sleep on the pile of soft towels. I cannot imagine her being crated for 12+ hours without any room to stretch her legs. She is just 10 weeks old and cannot hold it for that long so, she would be forced to lay in her own feces all day. Now that is cruel and unusual punishment.


There are some medical issues involved with young growing dogs that are crated for long extend amounts of time. It add pressure on their joints and often these dogs develop false bursitus. 

My two older dog play outside with sticks and ropes and bark at the mailman. I would rather them have that versus a life of living in a box. 
I do not work about theft, my metal gate is locked and my dogs are not friendly so anyone wanting them better be wearing a bite suit because they will be severely mauled.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> This is your opinion, and you are entitled to it. But that doesn't make it right. I've known (most were friends dogs) many dogs who are much better off being crated then kenneled. Dogs that will pace with almost an OCD type behavior when kenneled, to the point of wearing their pads off. Or who will slam into the fence, run to the other end of the kennel, come back, slam into the fence, run to the other end of the kennel, etc. Or dogs that will race in circles until they heatstroke. I've seen dogs with mismatched muscle developement because they spend so many hours in the day pacing in a circle in a kennel, always in the same direction. I have a dog like this, I got her at 8 or 9 (I'm her retirement home) and this behavior was already "set". Not only does she have the mismatched muscle development, but when she see's the chiropractor there are always minor issues on the same side, related to the direction she goes in. If out of the kennel she is quite happy to just hang out, lay in the sun, find a bone to chew, etc. But that's a new behavior, when I got her even out of the kennel she'd pace in a circle in the yard, approx 6 feet wide, I suspect it was the width of her kennel at her previous home. Put her in a crate, and she's quite happy and calm, and just lays about or sleeps.
> 
> I also know many dogs who are quite happy in a kennel, lay in the sun, take a nap, etc.
> 
> ...


So an animal lover who lives in a blown out trailer, making $300.00 a month, and has ten other dogs would be a great dog owner. Right!

"Whatever the owner is doing is right for that dog." Kadi what a crock of squat this is. That's a feel good comment. If the new owners standards aren't close to how I raise dogs, you aren't getting anything from me. I don't have to be politically correct, just correct to the standard that has served me all these years. Like I said before some slave owners in this country and in others kept slaves in confinement boxes. Didn't have to work too hard, got something to eat, and the beatings knocked off a few bugs. Did it make it right? Active dogs don't need boxed up and then brought out once in a blue moon to play with their owners, who are too busy to be responsible, some of them.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Mari Steward said:


> I do not believe in crating a dog for extending periods of time, I think that it is abusive. I am away from home for at least 12 hours a day. So, I put them in the backyard or a large bedroom with a large window for access to the outside world. When I get home they train for obedience and take a long run. Being free does not effect their drive.
> 
> I have a puppy now and she spends her day in my master bathroom with the floors lined with newspaper. She usually craps in a corner and has the rest f the bathrom to play with her rubber toys. She does have her crate if she wishes to sleep on the pile of soft towels. I cannot imagine her being crated for 12+ hours without any room to stretch her legs. She is just 10 weeks old and cannot hold it for that long so, she would be forced to lay in her own feces all day. Now that is cruel and unusual punishment.
> 
> ...


Thank God a regular voice in the K9 world...oh how refreshing to find someone with thinking similar to mine!!!\\/ What I've been trying to say all along!!! And it isn't a slap at folks who think incorrectly to me. This is the POSITION!!!


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## Daniel Cox (Apr 17, 2006)

Nothing wrong IMHO in crating a dog for extended period of times. My working line GSDs get plenty of exercise daily and all time outside the crate or kennel is to interacting with me or the family. I do keep mine in indoor/outdoor kennel runs but I have one female that just drives me nuts in the kennel. She's loud and damn right obnoxious in the kennel. I crate her at night in the kennel building and sometimes during the day. She has no issues with this. I put her in a 500 crate and some days she will spend 8-10 hours in the crate. She is a better dog in a crate.

I will always crate my dogs. I do not feel dogs need free time to roam the yard. I think it is important that all time outside the kennel is spent with me or my family and not with another dog or in the backyard looking for trouble.

Many people leave there dogs together all day because they say they get lonely. I do not allow any of my dogs out together because I hate a doggy dog. I want my dogs to look to me for everything. I think this is one of the biggest mistakes people make when they have multiple dogs. People say their dog needs a playmate and they go get another dog. This usually leads to a disaster and they ask "Why will my dog not interact with me?". I say because your dog is now bonded to his new buddy.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Yeah...Howard, obviously your dogs don't have as much drive as the ones being crated. Most are talking Mals and you have Bouv's, huge hairy dogs that are hot from all that hair and are glad to plop down adn take a laod off. Your dogs can and will relax in their kennel and not pace until they die. Some dogs wont. Should they just be left to pace until death or should the owners step in and stop the maddness? There seems to be something YOUR not getting now. You really can't make a blanket statement for every case because you don't know the specifics of every case. 

As for leaving my 10 week old pup in my bedroom...uh, I don't think I could sleep in there with the smell of piss. I also have $4000 worth of bedroom furniture I don't want my dog mowing on while I'm away. My pup started out sleeping on the bed with me, once she started screwing with my quality of sleep by hogging the bed, she was given a crate to bed down in and it took her all of 5 minutes to adjust. 3 days later she hit the crate rather than try to jump up on the bed. She got it and she is happy with it. Someone said a crate is like a den and dogs are den animals. I guess they abuse themselves if left to nature?

12 hours probably is too long to crate a dog regularly with no breaks for pottying and stretching the legs. I would probably set up a small pen in my garage not free roam of my bedroom if I was gone for 12 hours during the day. I'm lucky, I work at home so even my kennels dogs get out numerous times to play a bit and potty break.

I seriously never met a trainer that was anti crate. I thought it was a pet person missunderstanding thing. :-#


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Howard Gaines III said:


> So an animal lover who lives in a blown out trailer, making $300.00 a month, and has ten other dogs would be a great dog owner. Right!
> 
> "Whatever the owner is doing is right for that dog." Kadi what a crock of squat this is. That's a feel good comment. If the new owners standards aren't close to how I raise dogs, you aren't getting anything from me. I don't have to be politically correct, just correct to the standard that has served me all these years. Like I said before some slave owners in this country and in others kept slaves in confinement boxes. Didn't have to work too hard, got something to eat, and the beatings knocked off a few bugs. Did it make it right? Active dogs don't need boxed up and then brought out once in a blue moon to play with their owners, who are too busy to be responsible, some of them.


Don't worry...no one will ever accuse you of being politically correct with posts like these.


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

Mari, you actually let a dog shit and piss in your house? BWAAAHHHAAAAHHAAA.

Howard, say i have a drivey puppy, i need to work , what do i do? Look forward to your answer!


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Howard Gaines III said:


> So an animal lover who lives in a blown out trailer, making $300.00 a month, and has ten other dogs would be a great dog owner. Right!


LOL Since I don't see how anyone could feed 10 dogs on 300.00 a month, plus pay rent or a mortgage, pay for their own food, electricity, etc somehow I doubt that owner qualifies as a great dog owner.



> "Whatever the owner is doing is right for that dog." Kadi what a crock of squat this is.


Since I didn't say that, or even anything like that, don't try to attribute it to me. Either you are twisting what I said because it fits your goals, or you need to go back and re-read what I said so you will understand it. 



> If the new owners standards aren't close to how I raise dogs, you aren't getting anything from me.


And that's your right. I don't sell dogs to people who won't raise them in a manner I approve of either. 

I don't look at life as black and white, I believe there are shades of grey. What works for one dog/owner, may not work for another. If their dog is happy, healthy (mentally and physically), gets adequate exercise, mental stimulation, training, etc who am I to tell them that what they are doing is wrong? It's really none of my, or your, business.


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## Mari Steward (Mar 3, 2008)

Al Curbow said:


> Mari, you actually let a dog shit and piss in your house? BWAAAHHHAAAAHHAAA.
> 
> Howard, say i have a drivey puppy, i need to work , what do i do? Look forward to your answer!


Yes, I let my pup use newspaper in the tiled master bathroom. My master bathroom is very large. It is a lot of work for I have to clean and disinfect daily but that is the nature of having a puppy. She uses the paper so clean up is not bad. I leave a fan with a odor filter on with the windows open for fresh air all day. She is only 9 weeks old and does not poop much. This is a temporary solution until I make other arrangements.

I would normally keep her in the garage but, it is full of storage. My other dogs are fully house trained and never mess in the house. I would leave the pup in the backyard with the other dogs but, she can slip between the metal gate. 

I plan to purchase a large magnum kennel to place in the backyard. I have not had time to do so with training, working and traveling. So, in the next few weeks she will be kenneled outside. I have a large backyard with lots of trees perfect for a dogs.


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## Mari Steward (Mar 3, 2008)

Michelle Kehoe said:


> As for leaving my 10 week old pup in my bedroom...uh, I don't think I could sleep in there with the smell of piss.
> 
> 12 hours probably is too long to crate a dog regularly with no breaks for pottying and stretching the legs. I would probably set up a small pen in my garage not free roam of my bedroom if I was gone for 12 hours during the day. I'm lucky, I work at home so even my kennels dogs get out numerous times to play a bit and potty break.
> 
> I seriously never met a trainer that was anti crate. I thought it was a pet person missunderstanding thing. :-#


If this post was referring to me, I do not leave the pup in the bedroom it is a very large tiled master bathroom that is clean and disinfected daily. The garage is not an option at this time. 

I am not anti-crate. I travel to many dog competitions and crating is a must. I also use the crates when necesarry to put the dogs up with I have guests. I just do not leave them crated all day while I am at work. I would rather them be in the backyard because some times I leave a 5 am for work and will not return until 8 pm. That is too long for them to be in a crate. I would perfer them to be in kennels or in the fenced backyard.

Even leerburg does not leave his dogs crated all the time. He has fully house broken dogs that are trained to sleep on their own doggy beds, I have accomplished the same thing.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

I went inside my dog's crate once. It was pretty roomy in there. And snug. No wonder he doesn't want to share.


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## Mari Steward (Mar 3, 2008)

Lyn Chen said:


> I went inside my dog's crate once. It was pretty roomy in there. And snug. No wonder he doesn't want to share.


How long did you stay in his crate 8 hours or more?


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

I was gonna, but he kept farting all night...


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

My dogs have always looked at their crates as a great place to chill. 
I don't think 8 hours is a big deal for a dog. that likes the crate.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Mari Steward said:


> Yes, I let my pup use newspaper in the tiled master bathroom. My master bathroom is very large. It is a lot of work for I have to clean and disinfect daily but that is the nature of having a puppy. She uses the paper so clean up is not bad. I leave a fan with a odor filter on with the windows open for fresh air all day. She is only 9 weeks old and does not poop much. This is a temporary solution until I make other arrangements.
> 
> I would normally keep her in the garage but, it is full of storage. My other dogs are fully house trained and never mess in the house. I would leave the pup in the backyard with the other dogs but, she can slip between the metal gate.
> 
> I plan to purchase a large magnum kennel to place in the backyard. I have not had time to do so with training, working and traveling. So, in the next few weeks she will be kenneled outside. I have a large backyard with lots of trees perfect for a dogs.


The nature of getting a new pup is taking enough time off of work or making arrangements with other people so your young pup can be let out every 2-3 hours. Otherwise, why get a pup and mess with the house training in the first place? Just get an older dog instead. I wouldn't ever recommend even pet dogs being allowed to go in the house. If you're working 12 hours, find a high school or college kid to stop in and let them out. Most animal loving teenagers would love to do it for a little extra cash if they're responsible.

That's why when I got a pup (from Kadi) last summer when I did because it was when I could take about 2 weeks off and be home at almost all times to take him out every hour on the hour to get the routine going. Then when he turned about 3 months and we got the basics of potty training down, I could leave for 3-4 hours. If me or my husband couldn't come home after no more than 4-5 hours at max at that age, I'd have a friend stop by and let the pup out. I also came home every day at lunch the first semester of vet school to let him out until he was able to hold it no problem by November/December or so until I got home 6-8 hours later from class. No huge deal, but to me, that's the price of having a puppy. It was inconvenient for 2 weeks at the beginning taking him out every hour or so, but I didn't want to win the battle of convenience to lose the war of house training. We had very few accidents that way (usually only the leash em up at the door and we get so excited, he'd squat and pee).

As far as Ed Frawley, I can't speak for him, but I really doubt he'd let a young dog uncrated and left alone. All except my youngest get free house roaming privileges (except the bedrooms and office to keep down the amount of hair) when they are proven MATURE enough. An 8 month old Malinois is probably not likely going to be mature enough to handle it, even if they know to hold it. *shudders at the thought of the carnage and destruction*


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## Guest (Apr 23, 2008)

> Active dogs don't need boxed up and then brought out once in a blue moon to play with their owners, who are too busy to be responsible, some of them.


This is a useless discussion if you're going to fabricate things to respond to, and attribute those things to people with whom you're disagreeing. I saw nobody suggest that protocol.

Mari,

So far, everything has been in the context of a length a night's sleep. Not 12+ hours at a stretch. Attributing worst case scenarios as the norm of the people participating in this discussion is just theatrical.


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## Mari Steward (Mar 3, 2008)

Steven Lepic said:


> This is a useless discussion if you're going to fabricate things to respond to, and attribute those things to people with whom you're disagreeing. I saw nobody suggest that protocol.
> 
> Mari,
> 
> So far, everything has been in the context of a length a night's sleep. Not 12+ hours at a stretch. Attributing worst case scenarios as the norm of the people participating in this discussion is just theatrical.


Steven,

I was not being theatrical. I was speaking about my situation and yes my dogs are alone for 12 + hours a day and crateing is not something that I would do. 

As far as a night's sleep that is ok. My rottie sleeps in an extra large crate that he is able to stretch out and even stand in. My 10week old pup sleeps in her crate at night. However, I am at home so if she cries and needs to go potty , I can take her outside. I leave my corso out to sleep on his dog bed. He is the burgular alatm.


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## Melissa Blazak (Apr 14, 2008)

*15 years ago my breeder said "Anyone who raises a puppy without a crate is stupid."*[-( 
Being a newbie...I listened.

Mind you, he was a great dog and never destructive in the house. At 11 months he was out of the crate for good, had free roaming privledges and we had no problems.
Will the new pup be like that? Who knows.
But *I* know I am sticking with the above advice.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Michelle Kehoe said:


> Yeah...Howard, obviously your dogs don't have as much drive as the ones being crated. Most are talking Mals and you have Bouv's, huge hairy dogs that are hot from all that hair and are glad to plop down adn take a laod off. Your dogs can and will relax in their kennel and not pace until they die. Some dogs wont. Should they just be left to pace until death or should the owners step in and stop the maddness? There seems to be something YOUR not getting now. You really can't make a blanket statement for every case because you don't know the specifics of every case.
> 
> As for leaving my 10 week old pup in my bedroom...uh, I don't think I could sleep in there with the smell of piss. I also have $4000 worth of bedroom furniture I don't want my dog mowing on while I'm away. My pup started out sleeping on the bed with me, once she started screwing with my quality of sleep by hogging the bed, she was given a crate to bed down in and it took her all of 5 minutes to adjust. 3 days later she hit the crate rather than try to jump up on the bed. She got it and she is happy with it. Someone said a crate is like a den and dogs are den animals. I guess they abuse themselves if left to nature?
> 
> ...


Michelle if you knew my Bouvs you wouldn't say that. The male is a Mal in Bouv skin. The female is a little more on the calm side. Blanket statements no one can do. And I NEVER said I was anticrate, I am anticrate for 8-10 hours, big difference. Even when a puppy/dog is crate trained, the crate can be used as a "safe place" for a few hours indoors. In Delaware we have very humid days, I put fans on my dog kennels when there isn't enough breeze for them.

Puppy crate training is just smart business, as a breeder I tell new puppy owner to get one. Puppies and young dogs chew and no one wants to replace furniture or trim on doors. This point we agree. My issue is long term use in small crates. Pet person, yep but also a working pet person and K-9 trainer, see the website if you haven't...:mrgreen:


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Al Curbow said:


> Mari, you actually let a dog shit and piss in your house? BWAAAHHHAAAAHHAAA.
> 
> Howard, say i have a drivey puppy, i need to work , what do i do? Look forward to your answer!


Al you said you were a cat person, comment not needed!:mrgreen:


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Could this thread get ANY more enjoyable? :mrgreen: 
For this who are new to the forum, this is one of the more passion focused topics I've seen...gotta love it. :twisted: 
I wonder how hamsters feel running on the wheel in a small cage? Yeah.:-# 
Lions and tigers and bears oh my!8-[


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## Kayce Cover (Oct 30, 2007)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I don't think you can label someone responsible, irresponsible, or say someone should or should not have a dog based on if they crate, kennel, chain, whatever. I think you have to look at the individual situation, the overall care of the dog, is that dog happy/content? If so, then whatever the owner is doing is right for that dog.



Well said. I know plenty of dogs crated 8 or more hours a day that are thriving. Meanwhile, cities like Albuquerque are mandating kennels bigger than dining room tables or you are guilty of felony animal cruelty. But the size difference does little but make it too big to fit in most people's houses.

Paul Loeb videotaped client dogs while owners were gone and found they slept 95% of the time anyway. So do lions.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Kayce Cover said:


> I know plenty of dogs crated 8 or more hours a day that are thriving. Meanwhile, cities like Albuquerque are mandating kennels bigger than dining room tables or you are guilty of felony animal cruelty. But the size difference does little but make it too big to fit in most people's houses.


Plus the fact that the will crap in a crate that is too big. Then that starts another problem.


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## Kayce Cover (Oct 30, 2007)

*Pacing zoo animals*

PS Pacing in zoo animals: termed stereotypy. It is a way that animals exercise, and it is thought to be a way to self-dose with endorphins (much as many working dogs self-dose with dopamine and norepinephrine, given the chance). It is very akin to the way many people smoke cigarettes, glug coffee, chew gum, say 'ya know' before every utterance, or even, jog. My sister goes one hour a day, same route, same time, and she zones out. Can't even talk to her during the run - partially because you gotta keep up with her to talk to her... 

The animals can be very rigid in this stuff, and I do find that I can stop it from happening in most animals using other ways to occupy their muscles and minds, but the argument is now being made that it is not a bad thing, and it may even be linked to the urge to migrate. 

I personally think it is less deranged behavior than sitting in a bar, playing video games, or watching commercial tv - where many partake of the stereotypy of constantly manipulating the remote control, bending the elbow, or lighting the ***. =;

And how about parents that allow their kids to play video games and watch tv 8 hours a day. I say, give them a crate with some good books! Oh wait! That is called school! \\/ We already know that everyone learns better when they move and we condemn young humans to SITTING for 7-10 hours a day during their entire maturation phase. AND, we are requiring them to LEARN while they SIT, even though we KNOW that this works against their learning!!! Now that is abuse! And anyone who participates in such a system is suspect! No doubt sociopathic. :twisted: O 




:-k Where would we be if only those who had no vices or neurotic behavior were allowed to participate in setting rules or making judgements concerning others.... :???: 

Oh yeah, pathological liars would be making all the rules. :-| 



Respectfully, 
Kayce Cover
video game ACE and MSEd :-\"


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Kayce Cover said:


> Well said. I know plenty of dogs crated 8 or more hours a day that are thriving. Meanwhile, cities like Albuquerque are mandating kennels bigger than dining room tables or you are guilty of felony animal cruelty. But the size difference does little but make it too big to fit in most people's houses.
> 
> Paul Loeb videotaped client dogs while owners were gone and found they slept 95% of the time anyway. So do lions.


That's interesting that Albequerque is adopting standards more strict that the USDA AWA. When I was USDA licensed (Class C) I had a waiver from my vet to allow my dogs to be in smaller (normal-sized) kennels so they could get a rest in between training, rather than jumping at the kennel door/gate.


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## Kayce Cover (Oct 30, 2007)

Yeah! It is no doubt unconstitutional, but who has the resources to test it? This is happening all over the country. Next was Louisville, then...

And, variances may be endangered, because they are a matter of public record and are being challenged by animal rights activists, who also can see where your facility is, even if it is your home address.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Steven Lepic said:


> This is a useless discussion if you're going to fabricate things to respond to, and attribute those things to people with whom you're disagreeing. I saw nobody suggest that protocol....


That was in response to "Active dogs don't need boxed up and then brought out once in a blue moon to play with their owners, who are too busy to be responsible, some of them" which indeed seemed to come out of left field as a dramatic response to an argument no one made.

Leaving a tired dog in the crate and then devoting a good chunk of time to the dog's exercise on return is a protocol that seems to work well for a lot of people and dogs.


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## Sarah Koth (Mar 1, 2008)

I have to agree with Kadi on this one. Whether it's appropriate to crate a dog for an extended period really depends on the dog and the situation. Most of our dogs are out doors in kennels. Some just hang out, others stay in their dogs houses much of the time and a few can be quite active. However, there are a few that need to be crated in quite environment to enforce rest. These dogs may, like Kadi's, spin to a point it becomes physically unhealthy, fence fight, bite kennels or buckets etc. These behaviors can be dangerous and unhealthy to those particular dogs. In addition after exhausting themselves all day it leaves less for the dog to work with in training later. Meanwhile, these same dogs sleep and rest quitely and comfortably when crated indoors in between training/exercise sessions.

I think before making judgements about what is right or wrong in regards to crating dogs individual circumstances must be considered.

Sarah


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