# Beat em til they bite?



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Always seeing Bob type that phrase.
I think this one qualifies...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8NIK-KyZZ0


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## kenneth roth (Jul 29, 2010)

There is part of the truth why they mawl people..

Shame on that asshole trainer u c:-oan see the dog wasnt into it.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

So old school, he cant afford an ecollar?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

"In no time at all you too can have a dog that will keep the bad guy from your door". ](*,) 

That's about as bad as it gets! TOTALLY incorrect dog with an ^$$ wipe of a trainer!


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

HE thinks hes doing a great job, uploaded it with his email, website and phone number. Go figure.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> HE thinks hes doing a great job, uploaded it with his email, website and phone number. Go figure.


Actually I think someone else uploaded it with his information, it reads as "contact him at" not "contact me at"


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Actually I think someone else uploaded it with his information, it reads as "contact him at" not "contact me at"


OR he's creating deny ability! :lol::lol:
"Nope, not me! Just looks like me and someone posted my number with it."


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## kenneth roth (Jul 29, 2010)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Actually I think someone else uploaded it with his information, it reads as "contact him at" not "contact me at"


Wounder were is peta at ? Vacation ](*,)


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

That's what I noticed as well Kadi. If you look, it asks "what do you think about these training methods". Also, notice the "s around protection and protection training. Clearly someone else did this. I'd bet money on it.

So being the good, non confrontational citizen that I am (ok, that I chose to be at that moment in time would be more accurate) I wrote to Walter and asked if he would explain what he was attempting to accomplish during that session. I also asked him for an explanation of that approach and why it was considered necessary or appropriate.

I suppose I could have been a bitch about that. Frankly, I get tired of people being assholes to each other and felt a different approach might net something somewhat useful. Even if he stops to consider that in this day and age, very little goes unaccounted for.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Actually I think someone else uploaded it with his information, it reads as "contact him at" not "contact me at"


Could be one of them twisted ****s that talks about himself in third person!!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I know him personally, the vid was sent to me on facebook.

I have worked dogs before with him as well. Even brought a dog to him, to have him crack into, over 10 yrs ago..but that dog was FAR different than the dog in that video, and tore the fence down and tried to eat him.

He used to be somewhat skilled at certain aspects, probably still is, but to do that to a dog like that, is pretty low in my mind. Gives PP trainers a real bad wrap...


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## Bart Karmich (Jul 16, 2010)

This dog looks like mine (in behavior not breed), but my dog is like that on a 15' line with the handler (not a short chain). You see the avoidance looking away from the agitator, and the look of wishing it to stop.

I think it's chicken to stake the dog out on a short chain against the wall. I would give them the option to run behind the handler. I'd try not to cross that line, but if they're going to run before they think of anything else, let them run and then you're done with that dog.

My dog won't run with light pressure like that in the video, but he shows the avoidance looking away and sort of snaps like that, not really showing any desire to engage with a full grip.

In my mind, there's nothing terribly wrong with this as long as its an evaluation and you come to the obvious conclusion that this is not the work for this dog. The terrible thing would be to come to some other conclusion and continue this as if it was training that was going to produce a worthy outcome. This dog totally looks like it needs a trainer that will teach it to skate.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

No evaluation should be carried that far with a dog that shows that much stress. Done correctly the stress will be put on the dog and released as soon as it shows stress. Build off of that! 
That dog wants out and has no way to get there.
It doesn't belong there!!


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Bart: 
re: "In my mind, there's nothing terribly wrong with this as long as its an evaluation and you come to the obvious conclusion that this is not the work for this dog"
AGREED
and that should have been obvious about TEN secs after the "trainer" approached the dog, and ANY "evaluation" that lasted longer than that would be classified as borderline abuse imnsho.

i would go so far as to take a wild assed GUESS that you could have "evaluated" this pup without ever needing to stake it out in the first place.

...more likely a "customer" who went to his "guru" and said, "here's my money; train me a bad ass dog Bro" ... "i can't seem to get it fired up"
... bro than says, "sure we'll give it a shot"
...probably concluded with a "see how he started to come around when i let him/her back me off...we'll just have to keep at it and he'll/she'll come around in time"
.....money given..."training started" ](*,)](*,)](*,)
......yeah - it's just my wild ass guess ... but every now and then i'm a mind reader, so read or skip it :-(

so Joby; per his web site, as a 30 year dog trainer, do u happen to know what law enforcement agencies he has "worked" with ?

unfortunately i'll bet this crap happens a lot...one of the many problems with UNregulated "protection dog" training which anyone can do


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

rick smith said:


> Bart:
> re: "In my mind, there's nothing terribly wrong with this as long as its an evaluation and you come to the obvious conclusion that this is not the work for this dog"
> AGREED
> and that should have been obvious about TEN secs after the "trainer" approached the dog, and ANY "evaluation" that lasted longer than that would be classified as borderline abuse imnsho.
> ...


Rick I have been following it on FB. apparently the owner of the dog was very new to dogs in general and had no clue what was really correct. I do not think he is training with him anymore.

I do not know of any law enforcement agencies offhand, but do not doubt that he may have worked some police dogs. He is a fairly well known "agitator" in Chicagoland. He has worked a couple of my dogs in the past, and I have worked a couple of his, and decoyed some of his events. He has been at a few of my events, won a trophy or two I seem to recall.

I was wondering what bob meant by that phrase, now I know.


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## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

Personally, I'd like to duct tape him to a chair, poke him with a stick till he takes a swing at me, then beat the s**t out of him. After all, it's his training method I'd be using.

As a start, it might have not been a bad idea, but to keep it up when the dog was wanting to get the hell away wasn't going to do anyone any good.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Maybe he is trying to convince the owner of the dog that the dog aint cut out for the work or something else? Maybe it was better it was done here like this than else ware? Before you hang the guy for a 10 second video there really might be a whole lot more to the big picture? Or maybe not?


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## Jake Brandyberry (Jan 24, 2010)

Chris we would all like to think that but that is not the case here. There has been a long thread on FB about this and the owner of the dog spoke up. Basically the guy is new, drank the coolaid, and the guy messed up his dog bad. Dog had never had aggression issues before the training and then bit four people after. Now they are working with Troy and having great success in fixing all the shitty training.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> Always seeing Bob type that phrase.
> I think this one qualifies...
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8NIK-KyZZ0


"Beating"? I don't think so.


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## Amber Scott Dyer (Oct 30, 2006)

from the quotations around 'protection' training in the title, I'm assuming the person that posted this was being sarcastic and is probably just as disgusted as everyone else


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Amber Scott said:


> from the quotations around 'protection' training in the title, I'm assuming the person that posted this was being sarcastic and is probably just as disgusted as everyone else


That would make the upload make sense.


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## kenneth roth (Jul 29, 2010)

Nah that poster is part of the training person didnt even try to stop the trainer equal faulght


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## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

Speechless...


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

As horrible as that was i have seen sch dogs recieve more pain and stress training a retrieve, but for some reason that is never abuse, and this is. I loathe both, why do you guys only pick the one.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

As far as the video goes that was posted by Joby, I have no idea what that guy was trying to accomplish but the dog looked scared as hell. 




Peter Cavallaro said:


> As horrible as that was i have seen sch dogs recieve more pain and stress training a retrieve, but for some reason that is never abuse, and this is. I loathe both, why do you guys only pick the one.


Post the video if you want people to comment on whether or not they think it's abusive.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

If people started that yr sports would be gone, already gone in major states here and only time before a national ban. Dont think it cant happen in the states, and just admit, the level of stim and stress that dog gets in that clip is nothing compared to some regular old trial training.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Unintentional douuble post but my question is is the level of pain/stim that excessive to what occurs not uncommonly in what would many would consider in acceptable training standards for say sch.

and stress.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

"If people started that yr sports would be gone" 

uh huh, sounds like a fairytale to me.

If you want to start a thread about retrieves then do so, rather than hijacking someone else's thread. If you want people to comment on a technique that you find questionable, then provide a video showing same, outline what you do or don't like about the video, so that people can tell you whether they agree with you or not, though I have a sneaking suspicion you have never actually seen a forced retrieve being taught, either live or on video, so I wonder if you even know what you object to.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

What do you think is causing the dog pain in the video?


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Askin me?? i dont think the dog is recieving a high level of physical pain at all in that clip.


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## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

I know they do, but how do you 'force' a retrieve. Honestly, I've never had to do anything but throw something out, and call the dog back. I'm no expert, but to me if the dog had a high prey drive, it would retrieve as well.?????

I don't think the dog was being hurt physically, but mentally he was stressed and scared bad. I've been poked with a stick a lot harder, but the dog was wanting to get away, and had nowhere to go. Whatever he was attempting to accomplish, it wasn't working, nor was it ever going to IMO.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Joby, you enjoy sitting back and watching what you start....cheeky boy.


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## kenneth roth (Jul 29, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> I know him personally, the vid was sent to me on facebook.
> 
> I have worked dogs before with him as well. Even brought a dog to him, to have him crack into, over 10 yrs ago..but that dog was FAR different than the dog in that video, and tore the fence down and tried to eat him. :QUOTE
> 
> The dog tryed to eat him afther this training? WTG for the dog :grin:


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Never met the man, but he has been training dogs for 30 years
and he is pretty well know in Chicago and was active on the old
Chicagoland list.
http://www.walterwarddogtraining.com/index.html
I don't know how up to date the site is.
Anyone who puts up a 30 second video and uses someone else name is a gutless candy ass POS. I don't care that the dog wasn't suited for protection training. He was just having a whip flicked at him. He wasn't being beaten.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Really, really glad my dogs like to bite and chase things and I never got suckered into that kind of training.

I felt for the dog - his tail was tucked about as deep into his cheeks as he could get it.


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## Troy Seaton (Sep 4, 2007)

This is the reality.......Shy was never a prospect for Personal Protection or Sport work.....This dog is a rescue from the South Side of Chicago that was found with would be cigar burns all over her body and living on a steady diet of rocks & dirt as that was what she was pooping out.....This dog should have NEVER been forced to try and defend it's self.....I view this as morally wrong...BOTTOM LINE!!!!!!!! Yes this is abuse....not physical but mental and anyone to say other wise is just wrong.....I'm not going to debate the issue as I've had my hands on this dog and know first hand what took place..................I've never been one to rant or fight on the internet like many and usually mind my own besides posting training vids but this is wrong....and from what I understand this footage is from the 4th session..............here's the kicker....Shy had never bitten someone prior to training with Walter Ward but shortly after there were more than 4x that see would bite and fun away.......It's sad to me as I'm a dog person first and foremost......I've worked with the dog after this in only trying to build trust through her prey drive and were actually able to pet her and show affection.......still sad this dog has had some really shitty experiences with humans. TS


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Good on you Troy, yr a true man of honour in my book. Out of curiosity wtf was the owner thinking, even this newb could see that was wrong and going nowhere fast...not the first session????


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Troy,

I don't disagree with anything you wrote and hope you can rehab this abused girl. My problem isn't calling out Walter Ward for what he did. It's posting any video using some else name instead of being a a man and using your real name.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Thomas Barriano said:


> .... hope you can rehab this abused girl.



So do I, Troy.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

it is no secret locally that walter and myself do not get along very well anymore. I know Walter on a personal level, he lived with a friend of mine and caused the guy a lot of problems.

he is now doing that to another guy, which is how I believe this video got posted. someone snagged it from a person that did post it with their own name. and then reposted it. I assume that person also does not like walter that much, and also felt a strong personal reaction to the video. 

Walter has a habit of trying to flame people on the internet, airing personal disputes, and insulting people, so I am not surprised at all that it got posted. There is a discussion going on about the video and the personal dispute, on facebook, and also on the Chicagoland Working Dog Board, I am still banned from there I think, but have looked at it. there are a few people on there actually defending the training.

although I did realize it might be a negative on Walter when I posted it, I seriously wanted Bob to see it, because I always see him talking about "beat em til they bite" training, and have not seen a video of that until now.


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> it is no secret locally that walter and myself do not get along very well anymore. I know Walter on a personal level, he lived with a friend of mine and caused the guy a lot of problems.
> 
> he is now doing that to another guy, which is how I believe this video got posted. someone snagged it from a person that did post it with their own name. and then reposted it. I assume that person also does not like walter that much, and also felt a strong personal reaction to the video.
> 
> ...


See what you started Joby...have to be careful what you post on the Great Vast Internet... I hear there is a contract with ya name??? 

Seriously though.... I felt bad for that dog!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Doug Zaga said:


> See what you started Joby...have to be careful what you post on the Great Vast Internet... I hear there is a contract with ya name???
> 
> Seriously though.... I felt bad for that dog!


I am not involved in THIS dispute, although I imagine Walter is not happy that it is getting posted around the net.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Seen worse. :evil:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Troy Seaton said:


> This is the reality.......Shy was never a prospect for Personal Protection or Sport work.....This dog is a rescue from the South Side of Chicago that was found with would be cigar burns all over her body and living on a steady diet of rocks & dirt as that was what she was pooping out.....This dog should have NEVER been forced to try and defend it's self.....I view this as morally wrong...BOTTOM LINE!!!!!!!! Yes this is abuse....not physical but mental and anyone to say other wise is just wrong.....I'm not going to debate the issue as I've had my hands on this dog and know first hand what took place..................I've never been one to rant or fight on the internet like many and usually mind my own besides posting training vids but this is wrong....and from what I understand this footage is from the 4th session..............here's the kicker....Shy had never bitten someone prior to training with Walter Ward but shortly after there were more than 4x that see would bite and fun away.......It's sad to me as I'm a dog person first and foremost......I've worked with the dog after this in only trying to build trust through her prey drive and were actually able to pet her and show affection.......still sad this dog has had some really shitty experiences with humans. TS


Excellent post Troy!
I also don't see it as physical abuse but the mental abuse is obviously enough to put the dog over the top, nucking futs. 
Hopefully your efforts will help bring the dog back.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i'm glad that at least Troy got a chance to remove the dog and start working with it.

...here's where the story often gets worse :-(
some may remember i posted about a dobe i worked with
...not sure, but may be a very similar case
Yak type gets a dobe, chops the ears and tails and starts trying to get it "tuffed" up
- takes it to some local trainers ... that had some previous associations with Ja police academy and had a rep as a "good" protection "trainer"
- more heavy compulsion on the pup ... bites numerous times and "trainer" and owner both get pissed at the pup
- pup gets mostly boxed in a 4x10 kennel and labeled a "problem)
- pup gets worse of course
- no one wants to kill it but no one wants it
- months later i go by the place and saw the dog and inquired what it was doing out back ... was told "aggressive" bad dog
- then asked someone (privately) who worked there and was told more of the story
- said i would take it 
- boarded at my house
- spent about three weeks of doing NOTHING except allowing the dog to come to me ...eventually could hand feed and it would allow handling
- started coming around .. more weeks pass ... started allowing others to get near it ... more progress ... mostly women and non confrontational males
- was getting a good feeling it had a chance
BUT ... seemed that the dog had made an association in its head that certain types of people that prob fit the description of the original dirtbag Yak and would still light up VERY aggressively
- especially saw this with my son in law ... tall/dark good kid and loved dogs but had a piercing deep "look" which i thought was probably similar, and altho dog got better never would allow him near
- after a LONG time made the decision to give up on the dog and it's dead.
sad.....but imo that kind of rehab takes LOTS of patience, of almost doing nothing, letting the dog recover at its own pace, etc., and was amazing to see how much better the dog could get ... just never got to be reliable with everyone; too fast; a hard biter and just too dangerous 

- BUT i still feel guilty sometimes we might have given up too soon 
- dogs are capable of putting a lot of crap in their past behind them

- never done this with pit breeds but have heard they can adapt to a lot of past abuse. they seem to have great temperaments overall

- and DAMN right - imo abuse doesn't have to be physical and doesn't take much to have very BAD consequences on either weak or strong dogs ..forget the genetics

good luck Troy...i'm sure you'll give it what it needs and plse keep us posted on progress


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## kenneth roth (Jul 29, 2010)

Rick was trying to say this in the aggressive pitbull pup thread,but wasnt alowed to...makes since what his comments were.


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

Chris McDonald said:


> Maybe he is trying to convince the owner of the dog that the dog aint cut out for the work or something else? Maybe it was better it was done here like this than else ware? Before you hang the guy for a 10 second video there really might be a whole lot more to the big picture? Or maybe not?


hey Chris , you don't do that to the dog because the owner is to stupid to listen to the guy they brought the dog to be evaluated by.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Can someone explain to me the thinking behind both the owner and the trainer for taking a dog with a known history being abused and 'testing' it for protection over multiple sessions in that manner?

Even before I knew anything about protection work or dog training, I would never have subjected the abused dog I had many years ago to that kind of training, regardless of how much I thought of the trainer.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

leslie cassian said:


> Can someone explain to me the thinking behind both the owner and the trainer for taking a dog with a known history being abused and 'testing' it for protection over multiple sessions in that manner?
> 
> Even before I knew anything about protection work or dog training, I would never have subjected the abused dog I had many years ago to that kind of training, regardless of how much I thought of the trainer.


I talked to a person that knows the owner and the trainer, and apparently he was only supposed to be training the dog in prey, to build its confidence in interacting with people, he was not supposed to do this type of thing, I do not know the owner of the dog personally, but was told he was very naive. who knows for sure. 

I talked to the guy, who owned the facility this morning, and he was outraged to see this happening at his place, and told me he put the kabosh on the trainer using his facilities when he witnessed something that was actually much more tame than what was shown in the video. He just saw this video recently, and was very unhappy about it. He seems like a super nice guy and cares alot about dogs. I guess this happened a long time ago, like a year maybe.

Dont know either the owner of the dog, or the owner of the facility (cept for facebook) so cant say for sure why it happened like it did for sure


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

kenneth roth said:


> Rick was trying to say this in the aggressive pitbull pup thread,but wasnt alowed to...makes since what his comments were.



Anyone who wants to start a thread about rehab of aggressive dogs, go ahead and start the thread. 


It just seemed on second thought that that wasn't the best place; that's all.


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