# AKC CGC Tips



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Any useful tips for teaching and doing the the CGC? I'm thinking for working dogs...:-o


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I teach the CGC class for our therapy dog club at the vet school. We don't have any "working" dogs in the sense you're talking about, but I do encourage everyone to teach dogs to remain neutral to other dogs with eye contact on the handler. That seems to be one of the biggies. There was someone in our Schutzhund club who tried to do the TDI with her dog and his hangup was he snarked at the neutral dog (who was a pretty old lab who was the definition of neutral) after they walked by. So I start each training session with a few minutes of warm up work on eye contact (which is usually not a huge problem for handler oriented worked dogs). 

If your dog has any problems with neutral strangers or the groomer/vet check part, use a cue word to let your dog know it's okay for them to touch their ears, paws, and back and the brushing part so they don't llook resentful or growl. I've used "say hi" or something similar along with desensitization plus rewards (coming from you). Hope that helps..


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## Bill Whatley (Aug 26, 2009)

1. Socialize the puppy/dog.

All else will come back to No.1. O


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Bill Whatley said:


> 1. Socialize the puppy/dog.
> 
> All else will come back to No.1. O


 
I think that there are some dogs that genetically have limitations to how well socialization works. 

A lot of labs with very little socialization will be just fine.

Many Malinois with the best Socialization program in the world may not like other dogs being close by or weird people coming in. 

I see a lot of comdemning of people who have dogs that are less than perfect with other dogs or people. being indicted for not socializing enough or not the right way. Some dogs are just naturally more possesive, protective, suspicious...have the balls to tell another dog to get away or give a persont the indicationt the he/she is not exactly excited to be around weird people. That's just who they are. I think the pet dog training books, and trainers of old have made it seem that socialization will make a dog "social" (and that's what we consider social) no matter who the dog. And if the dog does see the world as a place where other dogs or people can break thier personal comfort bubble...then the dog MUST not have been socialized well enough. 

I think that you can Socialize all you want....but if that's all you got. In Working dogs, since we breed dogs to be a bit more assertive about what they want....you will sooner or later find the limitations of Socialization. And I will bet you will be able to see it in the genetics of your dog.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Maren good points as we are working on the CGC with several group members. James you are correct, it shows and all are up for question, even when I KNOW BEST. My four and half week old puppies were already chewing on the shirt sleeve and with enough spinning of my arm to tattoo "MAYTAG" on it. They still held on! Looking towards the handler eye contact and focus time.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Another thing I do, Is I take my dog for walks...when I see a dog in the distance...I watch my dog. the minute my dog sees the other dog. I give the watch the command. The minute the dog looks, I feed them....I may then go the other direction. As time goes on, I start to keep feeding the dog as we pass the dog. But I make the cue the other dog....when you see another dog, that means watch me. It worked great for my dog in her heeling and her long down.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

James Downey said:


> I think that there are some dogs that genetically have limitations to how well socialization works.
> 
> I see a lot of comdemning of people who have dogs that are less than perfect with other dogs or people. being indicted for not socializing enough or not the right way. Some dogs are just naturally more possesive, protective, suspicious...have the balls to tell another dog to get away or give a persont the indicationt the he/she is not exactly excited to be around weird people. That's just who they are. I think the pet dog training books, and trainers of old have made it seem that socialization will make a dog "social" (and that's what we consider social) no matter who the dog. And if the dog does see the world as a place where other dogs or people can break thier personal comfort bubble...then the dog MUST not have been socialized well enough.
> 
> I think that you can Socialize all you want....but if that's all you got. In Working dogs, since we breed dogs to be a bit more assertive about what they want....you will sooner or later find the limitations of Socialization. And I will bet you will be able to see it in the genetics of your dog.


I couldn't agree with this more. My dog failed the CGC test. I socialized her heavily from the day I got her, particularly through weekly OB classes up until she was 8 months of age. People who have seen her in person consider her to be a pretty dull dog and in a formal setting she usually is but on the day of the CGC I got a completely different picture of her. 

First, and this was not part of the test but for whatever reason someone ran up behind us in an explosive thunder. She swing around and did pretty much what you'd expect under those circumstances (barked and lunged), from there it went down hill, why I don't know but she ended up climbing on tables something she has never been encouraged or permitted to do. Further, the stimulation from the other dogs (she is dog aggressive) kept her on high alert and I couldn't get her attention back on me at that point. That obviously was a problem. I should have just left because this all occurred before the test started.

Later when I left her with the passive stranger or whatever the heck that woman was, that apparently didn't go well either, at one point Willow barked and shortly after I was reliving the Turner and Hooch movie all over as the woman was being drug by the dog across the room back over to me. The exercise had been cut short. Apparently, that and the fact that the dog was drooling (???) was cause enough to fail her.

In this case, I found the limitations to her socialization. I wasn't happy that she failed but it did give me a better understanding of her thresholds. Frankly, the fact that she was initially triggered by someone barreling down us out of the blue doesn't really bother me.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

I don't agree...... Train the dog for what you expect and expect what you train for. If you don't get what you expect then train until you do. Dogs are trainable and you can contol the dogs when you are with them, even if you are out of site. The problem comes in when you aren't anywhere around and then they will revert to what they think is best. Sorry guys I just don't agree.


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

I have to agree with Jerry. 

I tested my APBT/AST that has her CGC at 7 months old. She passed with flying colors then and could still pass today, yesterday or the day after. She was extremely DA and was a little harder to train than I was used to. BUT I expected her to pass it and we did. I expect Judge to pass it soon and he will. I train them until I get the result I want from them. Whether it's go lay down when they are inside or to come to me, flip to the other side, offer a paw and bow. 

Red has bad genetics, she is a genetic mess really, fearful, unpredictable and does not have a certain type she doesn't like, it's random. BUT I expect her to go out in public sometimes and deal with it, no scenes and no barking. We do small short outings with her and she copes with it through the training we've done. It means that she is more handler dependent than normal but that's ok. 

IMHO-you can train ANY dog to pass the CGC test once in their lifetime. My friends HA shitter Border Collie passed it after we worked with him for a few weeks, he probably wouldn't pass it again without a refresher but he would if he had a refresher course. 

Courtney


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Jerry Lyda said:


> I don't agree...... Train the dog for what you expect and expect what you train for. If you don't get what you expect then train until you do. Dogs are trainable and you can contol the dogs when you are with them, even if you are out of site. The problem comes in when you aren't anywhere around and then they will revert to what they think is best. Sorry guys I just don't agree.


Oh, I got what I expected alright. Aside from climbing on the table, nothing she did surprised me. If the CGC had really mattered that much, I would have put more time into getting her to pass or took her back for another attempt. Again, it really wouldn't have changed what is even if we had. To me a piece of paper saying the dog passed a CGC test in no way should give someone piece of mind about what isn't. Sure, I absolutely agree I could train through something like this but in the end it's training and doesn't change the inclination to be or react a certain way. 

It's alright if we see things differently, I didn't post what I did to debate whether or not you can prepare a dog well enough to move it through a CGC test to pass. It's pretty obvious to anyone who works with dogs in any capacity that it's possible.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Nicole, what I'm saying is that a CGC isn't the have to have piece of paper. What is important is that dogs need direction period. CGC is simple, the hard part is everything after that. Having a dog that is stable. Using the ten items of the CGC is a good start though. A stable dog is so much easier to live with and not a great liability.


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

I can tell you that while the CGC is just a basic piece of paper to some of us. It does mean more to landlords and the such when you are renting still. I have gotten into a place that said they would not allow dogs because both my dogs had their CGC certs and I signed a contract stating that I was responsible for any damage done by them. It has helped me more than once in that respect. 

Courtney


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Who suggested dogs didn't need direction? Certainly not me. I think everyone here subscribes to that idea. It's not even a question as far as I am concerned.

You didn't ask but I most certainly did do things to address the behaviors she exhibited during that test.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Ditto with Jerry! 
If the dog is sound to begin with, the handler is competent and has the dog's respect, the CGC is a no brainer, walk in the park. It's not even a real training issue.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Here's some things that came up in our training class today thought I'd mention. Most working breeds are pretty exercise dependent (AKA: "hyper" or at least keyed up). Take your dog for a good hour or two hour off leash walk, or bike for an hour, or swim, etc. to take the edge off before the test, if possible. Arrive at the testing facility at least half an hour early or more so the dog gets used to the location, noise, children, etc. Practice desensitization and counter conditioning to be neutral to the neutral/friend/grooming stranger and neutral dog. 

Bob's right. I'm no world champion trainer, but I have had six of my dogs pass the CGC all on the first try (one of them with only like two or three days of work when she only knew sit). It's not rocket science training...not that I look down on anyone whose dog didn't pass the first time, I'm sure it will happen to me too! #-oThe CGC may be a piece of paper, but anyone with a working/protection/performance dog, it's still good idea to get. JMHO.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Oh Bob, I am sure you are right. I'm really not all that competent. Which without a doubt led to why I got an unstable dog to begin with that I couldn't earn any respect from. The CGC failure surely is the least of my problems with this dog and me for that matter. 

Where is Jeff when I need him to supply me some ideas on what to do with this shitter of mine. A bullet, a dumpster, and me with all of my stupidity to just go away. I think that's what the Dogfather would suggest as a solution. Sounds good to me.

LOL have a good one.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Nicole, I didn't mean that as a personel dis. I just think to many people make the CGC something hard. It's a good thing to have for many reasons but just relax, break it down into the simple tasks called for and enjoy it. :wink:


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

No I didn't take it that way for sure. But if I had, there's certainly much truth to what you said.

You guys would really have to know the dog to understand why I made light of it though. Before I spayed her it was like she was a little bit autistic and in her own world. Today she is much different thankfully.

I worked with her so much as a young dog and with so much bullshit repetition and proofing I totally shut her down. Understand this was all positive but it was simply too much much and eventually it became the sole basis for all of my interactions with her. So any time she was around me she became relatively unresponsive, complaint yet but no heart at all in it - too obedient and good my friends would say about her. She just sat there, didn't really respond to much, and was aloof to people, most of all me.

Any time she got away from it was about something else entirely. She was lively, interested, bold, etc. The training classes I took her to did not permit corrections of any kind. Slow sits, no responses, you name it, were not to be corrected. Instead they required me to wait them out. This went on for the duration of our time with them. It did not agree with me but at the time purely positive training was new to me. So I stuck it out thinking there was as much of a lesson for me in it as there was for my dog.

I believe she acted differently there because I couldn't by their rules anyway, permit compliance in a manner I felt was appropriate for some of her behaviors. Mind you at that time she did not exhibit dog aggression but she was overly interested in getting to and playing with other puppies/dog. So throughout the classes I spent being drug around by her or blown off entirely. But you better believe at home or anywhere else she was not permitted to do the things she did there. 

The CGC test was given at the same training center. I believe that a number of negative circumstances led up to why she failed, most of all was the damage I had done to our relationship by the type of training I did with her. I'd never do it again. It's taken me far too long to undo something I could have avoided from the onset. Now, I go with my gut in training and I certainly did not abandon some of the things I learned while there. Admittedly, I should have left that facility in the first week or two when I wanted to correct the dog for dragging me around and not paying attention to me. No surprise a year later when I took her back for the CGC that everything she did at 8 months she repeated at that training center. Yet, when I took her to the SchH field I may have had a stuffed dog at the end of the leash. That's what I meant by the "different picture". It was somewhat comical particularly given how frustrated I had become by how badly things between she and I had become. Nothing I did seemed to work and this has been without a doubt one of the most challenging experiences of any dog I have worked with. As a matter of fact, it wasn't until I got her that I realized a dog could have no interest in toys or playing. Try working with a dog like that. It's a bit of a miserable experience.

So everything I said in response to your post really fit the situation. I own it.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Sorry if I had offened you Nicole, it wasn't meant that way. I was talking dog training in general.


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

Hi Howard, I agree with what Jerry has said, also dogs in our clubs that did have an "edge" or dog aggression , or separation anxiety etc- we trained and concentrated on those particular problems- most of the dogs passed the CGC, of those that did not-there were 2, I think the competence and the commitment of the handler of the dog is definately a factor .


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Thanks Mo.

I do believe genetics plays a roll in this also. I also believe good training helps. It can be controlled. I refuse to say it is what it is. All dogs are what they are that's why we train, to use what they are to become what we want them to be.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Mo, I heard you were dead! Pulled from the planet by little green men...I'm glad this conversation is bouncing around like this. As a CGC Evaluator and not a BIG fan of all that is AKC, I think some dogs in some venues should have a sharper edge to their metal. Just b/c the dog fails that test or any other doesn't make them junk.

My male Bouvier will not pass unless I tested 100% of my time on the 3 minute seperation. It isn't a seperation fear, he would just eat the person b/c they DON'T NEED to be near pop. His OB is GREAT, no dog aggression, or pulling like a madman on the leash. But protective to that point he is and something I want. A sport Fluffy this dog ain't. He will come out and give it his all. Some of this is how I alloed him to be trained, while I feel the balance is in his genes.

Now my female Bouvier got her CGC after a former club member planted the seed in my head. Bear was able to do it based on her genetics and possibly because she is female. Rock isn't going to go there. I also think landlords and town council folks don't have a clue about true working dogs. Most can't even use the right terminology, attack trained dogs. 

Yes the CGC is good for the basic foundation it puts forth, it isn't geared toward all dog uses or purposes, IMO. You can social your dog to death, and if they piss on the testing area then they fail. If they showcase a little more interest/protectiveness, they fail. What a shame for a genetically wired PROTECTION TOOL!


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

It's all good Jerry. Thank you.

Somewhat still relative to this discussion is that I think when people hear other people say their dogs are dog aggressive its easy to take your mind to a dark place with that. It's not like that with me and certainly not so with this one that failed the CGC. She's been around other dogs all her life, she's met puppies as an adult and has been housed with other animals so when I acknowledge it, I am merely making a comment about something in particular that's to be considered. As in watch it he gets pretty wild for his toy or she's shedding right now. I don't under any circumstance let something, particularly a potential liability ever become someone else's problem. It's not how I operate.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Nicole, it sounds like your dog just needs to learn again how to have fun.
I'm a big believer in motivational training but to many of the "purely positive" crowd want to sit back and wait for the behaviour. That's great if you have a dog that can concentrate and has a high value reward. For a laid back dog that doesn't have any real food drive, play drive or the ability to concentrate, the time between behaviours can be long and boring for the dog and handler both.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Hhhmmmm, I'm w/ Jerry on genetics and training. First its selection for stability---environmental and people. Then its socialization and training and letting the dog know what you expect in different geographical environments with all kinds of people etc. Too often with the sport world socializtion is considered the training field. My rule of thumb is if they have been there twice it loses all value for new and different. I keep changing locations for training and what I call seeing the world. It shouldn't be one dog at home and at the field and another somewhere else. I expect a dog with instinctive protectioin to have JUDGEMENT and to be able to discern a real threat. This is supposed to be intrinsic in the breeds I have. That said, KNOW your dog and what they can and cannot handle and don't put them in situations they can't deal with. I think the defininition ofworking dog varies. For me a CGC should be a piece of cake that doesn't really need advance prep with a dog that I have chosen and raised my way. I've had a couple that wouldn't look kindly on someone holding them and keeping them from following me but because I've done a lot of outta sight work, I can say stay until I get back and the person can hold the lead like a post. Its even better if its one of those tie out situations. I've had a couple that weren't big on other dogs in their face but I worked with the idea that in the presence of dogs, their eyes should be on me. One dog they actually tested twice because they could see a "flicker." But he passed for the CGC/TDI. I did the testing with dogs when the program first came out. I recently saw a test and was amazed at what was passed. What I didd was more stringent. I don't know that there is a lot of consistency in the testing.

Terrasita


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

_"Mo, I heard you were dead! Pulled from the planet by little green men....."

_Howard, that was just one of the many *untrue* rumors about me going around..\\/I could be in the national enquire- there are some good ones out there!:-o
but....I am also a CGC evaluator, and I also don't agree with AKC 100%- but I do very much encourage new handlers/dog owners to attempt this-hopefully to encourage them to go further-
For the dogs already involved in sport or PP, the one good thing the handlers can speak to their dogs during the testing-(hard to do, if you come from ring sport though).... my dogs are given a "say Hi" command- which I encourage others to do during training- will it work for all dogs??- probably not- but did well for Chico, Hugo, Tango....used it a lot when we were doing K9 Security.
but with the CGC test, for the out of sight, I would not put my dogs in the down-I definately kept them in a sit- a down was to much like getting them ready for a bite- like being at the line of departure- they may also put themselves into a natural "guard"- and should that person standing there for the out of sight, move-even just shift position, the dog may bite-thinking they were ready to escape...you don't get far with the FR trained dogs-that is for sure!:-\" So that is something the working,sport, pp handler also has to take into consideration.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Mo Earle said:


> _"Mo, I heard you were dead! Pulled from the planet by little green men....."_
> 
> Howard, that was just one of the many *untrue* rumors about me going around..\\/I could be in the national enquire- there are some good ones out there!:-o ...


 Mo one big problem, video doesn't lie!!!:---) Now about that thick chick in the thong!!!!! It looks VERY much like it could be.....................=;:-&


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

_"Mo one big problem, video doesn't lie!!!







Now about that thick chick in the thong!!!!! It looks VERY much like it could be..................







.







"

_HOWARD....shhhhh, you saw a video???:-k....you know I am 5'9 , 130lbs...you can see that in my avatar or come to my CGC class.....I guess......just like BAD inexperienced handlers that make dogs look :-#](*,), inexperienced photographers using the wrong camera lens.....[-X:???:..get bad results too!:mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen:


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Mo Earle said:


> BAD inexperienced handlers that make dogs look :-#](*,),


 Good dogs make bad handlers look...? OK I'll NOT post the video that was shot under low light conditions...it could have been another BRAVE soul. CGC it proud! Now were's my bat, I have POSITIVE motivational training to do!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :---)


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