# dog selection ----pick up and carry away a car tire



## Jack Lee (Mar 26, 2009)

a car tire , R15 type ,is about 10 KG. put the tire flatly on ground , when the dog see the car tire , some dog will be very motivated , and go to get the car tire . 
but the tire is not easy for the dog to pick up by his mouth .

My opinion is that those dog try best and succeed (even easily ) to pick up and carry away the tire prove definitely strong prey and full of fight drive.

what are your opinion?


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## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

it's just a tire.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Reminds me of a news story a couple years back of a pit that bit and punctured a parked police car's tire.

Why that particular test? Why not hang a tire from a tree and see how long a dog will grip it, hanging in the air by it's teeth?

What does your test really mean? To me it sounds uncontrolled. Do you really want your bite trained dog to light up on "unusual" items, or ordinary items that the dog thinks resembles training items? I think not.

I once was doing drive/tug play with a dog. A woman walked by with a purse, swinging slightly as she walked. The dog lit up on the purse, gripped and pulled it out of her hands. It was lightening fast and fortunately no one was hurt.

I never want my dog to mistake a bitework item for something ordinary (like a tire). I think it is dangerous.

Perhaps a better item for your test is a bowling ball exercise ball? Weighs a lot, and take drive and strength to carry it. But it IS A BALL and is unlikely to cause any innapropriate/dangerous redirect.

(Except if you're training a high-drive service dog in a bowling alley. I was working with a handler in a wheelchair and we were unprepared... the dog bolted down the alley after the ball, lol. Now I know to take those ball-driven dogs bowling before passing them on to a new handler. \\/ )


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

I think it shows how well a dog can go and get a tire.


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## Jack Lee (Mar 26, 2009)

I am not surprised to disagreed opinion. 
but ,tire is quite different from dumbbell or bowling ball . It is not similar to the action of hanging on the balls on the tree. 
It is very hard for a man to hold up a tire by one hand (not two hands).
there is the pull-out force by weight of tire, it is much easier for dog to bite and hold on sleeve .
My second question is , if anybody tried this way to differentiate your dogs?

To me , it is quite clear , one of my dogs that can bite and carry away easily shows much much better signs of prey drive or courage test or biting sleeves and fight drive (prey and defense mix , or prey and defense intertransfer ) than other dogs. 

Suppose bad guy fall on the ground , the dog which can carry away the bad guy , will be more confident and reliable .


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## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

Jack Lee said:


> ....
> 
> Suppose bad guy fall on the ground , the dog which can carry away the bad guy , will be more confident and reliable .



"carry away the bad guy"??? really?


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Jack Lee said:


> I am not surprised to disagreed opinion.
> but ,tire is quite different from dumbbell or bowling ball .


Can you please post a video of your dog retrieving a bowling ball?


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

This dog would not even _retrieve or chase a ball for me,_ until "suddenly" when he was two years old, and doing so with good drive...

But, he sure had a thing for tires.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghNOZJReS-A

Indicated to me what a real dork he could be, is about all


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

What exactly does carrying the tire prove? Do you make him hunt for it? If he doesn't retrieve the tire is he eliminated? I am just trying to figure out what the tire represents. 

DFrost


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

I have the sneaking suspicion that if I made videos of dogs I am going to sell biting tires and telling people, look at that, he's got awesome prey drive, can't you see how good his courage test will be....I won't sell many dogs.

You should reccomened that the FCI put tire biting in the IPO routine, because it's a defintive test of a dogs nerve. Btw I have seen dogs that will bite many inanimate objects, but wouldn't bite a man with a sleeve on to save thier life.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

We have a pitbull in here now for board and train that will attack trees. What does that mean? Is she a police dog prospect too?


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## Jack Lee (Mar 26, 2009)

David Frost said:


> What exactly does carrying the tire prove? Do you make him hunt for it? If he doesn't retrieve the tire is he eliminated? I am just trying to figure out what the tire represents.
> 
> DFrost


----------------
by now , I am really surprised . you guys always train but never do something natural?
my post is mainly about fight-drive .
Loucaslte contributed stake test for picking up his police dog, IMO,his point is that dog has no fear. 
In my test , the point is nomatter how big the opponent is and how hard is ,the dog still willing to engage in "fighting ".
why don't you put one tire (R15) on ground , then see how brave the dog is ! ( IMO,it tells more than dog in bark, and hold and fighting with decoy because of not harder for dog picking and carrying tire).


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Jack Lee said:


> ----------------
> by now , I am really surprised . you guys always train but never do something natural?
> my post is mainly about fight-drive .
> Loucaslte contributed stake test for picking up his police dog, IMO,his point is that dog has no fear.
> ...


Are you serious? Or are you just ****ing with us? April fools day was yesterday man.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Maybe it is still yesterday there today here?


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## Jack Lee (Mar 26, 2009)

James Downey said:


> I have the sneaking suspicion that if I made videos of dogs I am going to sell biting tires and telling people, look at that, he's got awesome prey drive, can't you see how good his courage test will be....I won't sell many dogs.
> 
> You should reccomened that the FCI put tire biting in the IPO routine, because it's a defintive test of a dogs nerve. Btw I have seen dogs that will bite many inanimate objects, but wouldn't bite a man with a sleeve on to save thier life.


Yes , RING sports should put tire as the prey object .


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

My dog's Kung Fu is better than yours ;-)


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## eric squires (Oct 16, 2008)

Thank you all. I need ed a good laugh and got it. Sounds like a Pit bull thing to me.


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## Jack Lee (Mar 26, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> Are you serious? Or are you just ****ing with us? April fools day was yesterday man.


this is no joke , really . 
I have made the post very clearly .
The point is , why do you believe the tire is just an object that nothing to prove？while no checking and no comparing .


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Jack Lee said:


> this is no joke , really .
> I have made the post very clearly .
> The point is , why do you believe the tire is just an object that nothing to prove？while no checking and no comparing .


ummmm, I guess I dont know the answer to this question. I do know this for sure though, I have seen dogs who would attack tires, wheelbarrels, lawnmowers, vaccum cleaners, etc, but would not ever bite or fight a man at all. I have also seen many very strong dogs who were very solid and stable and would ignore everything like that, but would fight a man till they died with all they had in them.
Honestly, I have never heard of anything quite so ridiculous.


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## Jack Lee (Mar 26, 2009)

the owner of malinois kennel , duverotrre of belgium , once choose puppy gsd. when , testing in some unfamiliar place ,, the gsd runaway , soon later , the puppy is back carrying with a chicken in his mouth . that dog has several children as word-class champion.


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## Jack Lee (Mar 26, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> ummmm, I guess I dont know the answer to this question. I do know this for sure though, I have seen dogs who would attack tires, wheelbarrels, lawnmowers, vaccum cleaners, etc, but would not ever bite or fight a man at all. I have also seen many very strong dogs who were very solid and stable and would ignore everything like that, but would fight a man till they died with all they had in them.
> Honestly, I have never heard of anything quite so ridiculous.



When first test , one should roll the tire around to activate the dog. next time ,not nacessary.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Jack Lee said:


> the owner of malinois kennel , duverotrre of belgium , once choose puppy gsd. when , testing in some unfamiliar place ,, the gsd runaway , soon later , the puppy is back carrying with a chicken in his mouth . that dog has several children as word-class champion.


How much can you pay me for puppies who will kill chickens? I can ship them directly to China. I usually have 8-10 puppies in each litter, I'd guess I could have them all killing chickens by about 10 weeks of age. I can produce about 10 litters per year for you here. So is there a big enough market in China to support the export of 80-100 chicken killing Malinois puppies. Perhaps we can both make some money with this.
Here where I live, the problem is that dogs who kill chickens usually get shot. Killing chickens is very easy (and very natural) for dogs, but if that impresses you we can go into the business.


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## Jack Lee (Mar 26, 2009)

as somebody say the best temperament of dog is the relation to the children , IMO , even better is to the home's cat . the dog carrying tire has perfect relation with the cat . 
really no joke . that is the same dog.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Jack Lee said:


> When first test , one should roll the tire around to activate the dog. next time ,not nacessary.


Oh, OK. Now it makes perfect sense. Thank you for clearing that up. These other idiots on here will never understand the importance of this test, dont even waste your time trying to get them on board.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

My dog bites everything....when she see's me she get excited and attacks the couch...And moves it. But, I would say this is no more than a pain in the ass.


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## Jack Lee (Mar 26, 2009)

I got the story from felix ho directly . when I ask him what fight drive.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Jack Lee said:


> the dog carrying tire has perfect relation with the cat .


Are you available for seminars in the USA?


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

This dog must be the next world champ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O89P4UwDVso


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Jack Lee said:


> as somebody say the best temperament of dog is the relation to the children , IMO , even better is to the home's cat . the dog carrying tire has perfect relation with the cat .
> really no joke . that is the same dog.


So good with cats, but not with chickens? How should the dog know the difference? Is it because one has fur and the other feathers?


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

James Downey said:


> My dog bites everything....when she see's me she get excited and attacks the couch...And moves it. But, I would say this is no more than a pain in the ass.


Obviously not the same thing Downey.......We are talking about the importance of fighting a tire, and how that will translate to carrying a man and being at peace with the cat. Come on man, get with the program!!


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Does it matter if it's a radial or all-terrian?..Jack's big on the R-15, I don't want my dog to be a puss, Maybe I will use a R16....Hell what not just get a tractor tire, like the ones grandpa made my sand box out of.


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## Jack Lee (Mar 26, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> Oh, OK. Now it makes perfect sense. Thank you for clearing that up. These other idiots on here will never understand the importance of this test, dont even waste your time trying to get them on board.


I take much time to understand what fight drive is , really hard work to me . 
aggression is not equal to fight drive. many people is satisfied with aggression . but , IMO ,there is reliable issue for service dog . so one need to understand why dog will fight .
I have discuss the tire test with some top policeman in china , but they can not understand . they think aggression is enough and also the aim .
some time , I like to recite ED FRAWLEY saying : very very very few people can understand fight drive.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

James Downey said:


> My dog bites everything....when she see's me she get excited and attacks the couch...And moves it. But, I would say this is no more than a pain in the ass.





mike suttle said:


> Obviously not the same thing Downey.......We are talking about the importance of fighting a tire, and how that will translate to carrying a man and being at peace with the cat. Come on man, get with the program!!


Why does this discussion always break down into the tire people versus the sofa people? ](*,)


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Why does this discussion always break down into the tire people versus the sofa people? ](*,)


 Those damn sofa people will never understand fight drive!


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Jack Lee said:


> I take much time to understand what fight drive is , really hard work to me .
> aggression is not equal to fight drive. many people is satisfied with aggression . but , IMO ,there is reliable issue for service dog . so one need to understand why dog will fight .
> I have discuss the tire test with some top policeman in china , but they can not understand . they think aggression is enough and also the aim .
> some time , I like to recite ED FRAWLEY saying : very very very few people can understand fight drive.


Seriously......are you available for seminars in Amerika?


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## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Why does this discussion always break down into the tire people versus the sofa people? ](*,)


It's like the Hatfields and McCoys!  We had a guy come out to club with a small female shepherd a couple years ago, and he thought she would do well because (get ready here folks) when he would take her for a walk (he said) she would carry a full size RAILROAD TIE!!!


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## Jack Lee (Mar 26, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> Seriously......are you available for seminars in Amerika?


Sorry , I am not professional. Maybe I can explain my view on fight drive here .
-----------------------------
to be reliable.
The fight process must be fun for the dog . So the key is prey . IMO, TRUE Prey =track+get+carry away+(even hide the prey). pick the dog which only interested in big animals , that is the fight UP.
IMO, dominance is important for sports and aggression , is second power for fighting for fun.
one should focus on the inner nerve machine playing big role in fighting for fun.
one more point is that dog is just assistant for policeman, so solidity is also not so very important.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Jack Lee said:


> Sorry , I am not professional. Maybe I can explain my view on fight drive here .
> -----------------------------
> to be reliable.
> The fight process must be fun for the dog . So the key is prey . IMO, TRUE Prey =track+get+carry away+(even hide the prey). pick the dog which only interested in big animals , that is the fight UP.
> ...


WOW, you obviously understand this much more thoroughly than any of us ever will. But then again everyone knows that Amerikans dont know much about dog training. We can all learn a lot from folks like you if we keep an open mind like the cat and the chicken. Now that I think about it I can definately see how the tire test if done correctly could be the only test required in the selection of real police dogs. If a dog will fight a tire and kill a chicken what else do these silly Amerikan cops need to see? That says enough to me after the way you explained it.


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## Eric Read (Aug 14, 2006)

Is it time in this thread to pull out the Sofa King jokes?


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## Jack Lee (Mar 26, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> WOW, you obviously understand this much more thoroughly than any of us ever will. But then again everyone knows that Amerikans dont know much about dog training. We can all learn a lot from folks like you if we keep an open mind like the cat and the chicken. Now that I think about it I can definately see how the tire test if done correctly could be the only test required in the selection of real police dogs. If a dog will fight a tire and kill a chicken what else do these silly Amerikan cops need to see? That says enough to me after the way you explained it.


the essence of fight drive is like a small size guy fighting against a big size guy. 
you can check tire test . R15,10KG ,is not easy for dog . I see my dog prey +defense drive that time.

yes , I do believe , IPO and Ring don't give much very much information . you know lex tikehook ? his son the wusv 2nd. but also his son in china, good dog , but can not pick up and carry away R15tire.
so I am really suspicious about koos hassing dog , even though he is so famous.


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## Jack Lee (Mar 26, 2009)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> So good with cats, but not with chickens? How should the dog know the difference? Is it because one has fur and the other feathers?


something moving surely activates dog's prey .
the point is that you raise your cat in your home , and dog is quite quick to pack cat in. so the dog will never not hurt the cat even catch cat in corner. they can sleep together , eat together .
still , you put a tire on ground , the dog is absolutely aroused to----.


as for chicken , it is for puppy dog. it is carrying away not killing that matters.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

The GSDxDane I had when my daughters were growing up used to toss a 14inch tire around the yard like a rag doll. 
Did it make him a better dog? I have no fricking idea! Didn't even think about it. He wasn't allowed on the couch though. Does that count for anything? ](*,)


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Ozzy wasn't just a tire dog, he was a sofa dog too... and a vacuum dog... buckets... kennel panels... ladders... side paneling... I knew I shouldn'ta sold him so cheap :-(


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Cool thread,

based on the chicken kill test my dogs should be man stoppers, should I muzzle them in public or just around chickens??


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

I was in China about 9 months ago all I can say is dogs are to people like chicken are to dogs or something like that…. Just food. 
There was one street pup still alive because no one could catch him. I cheered for him every morning. The pup was the chosen one he was able to walk through the craziest traffic every everyday and not get tagged. Does the taste change if they are road kill?


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Ah man, did ya have to bring the whole people eating dogs thing up on a dog forum.

Thanks A-hole.


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## Jack Lee (Mar 26, 2009)

Chris McDonald said:


> I was in China about 9 months ago all I can say is dogs are to people like chicken are to dogs or something like that…. Just food.
> There was one street pup still alive because no one could catch him. I cheered for him every morning. The pup was the chosen one he was able to walk through the craziest traffic every everyday and not get tagged. Does the taste change if they are road kill?


yes ,what you saw is truth . All I want to say is , when china is richer , the lives of dogs will be improve. 
ironically , many of the same people will cheer the street pup if knew the story.
people don't sell their own dogs or kill . the dog thieves steal and sell .

rabies is one cause to bad dog and people relationship


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## Robert Palmer (Oct 17, 2011)

Somehow...I'm not sure why...but I get the feeling that Jack has an accurate intuitive understanding of things.

I bet his dogs and training probably smokes half of the eye-rollers here.

Don't want to generalize too much, but a cultural theme amongst Chinese (it seems) is buckling down and getting sh*t done, no questions asked. No excuses. I don't see useless anything being kept around, whether it's the animal itself or traing concepts (even if they're not fleshed out in words very well).

Just a feeling.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Robert Palmer said:


> Somehow...I'm not sure why...but I get the feeling that Jack has an accurate intuitive understanding of things.
> 
> I bet his dogs and training probably smokes half of the eye-rollers here.
> 
> ...



More like china has been succesful in making it appear as if they get shit done... House of cards.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Is this david f.


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## Robert Palmer (Oct 17, 2011)

Reading some of historic threads about various tests, this isn't exactly crazy talk. Not by a long shot. 

And I'm not talking about the chinese _government_, James.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Six pages of discussion. I'd be interested in know just how many of those involved, in this discussion of selecting police canines, have actually selected "police" canines. Dogs that were entered into training, completed training and are now or were active police service dogs. You can count me as a yes I have and still am. 

I do admit, I am learning something by reading some of the posts in this thread. 

DFrost


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## Robert Palmer (Oct 17, 2011)

Neat-o.

Tell me more.


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## Robert Palmer (Oct 17, 2011)

Wait a second...didn't this Stuttle guy show a video of a dog attacking a rubber swimming pool and implying what high drive that is? LOL

Lemme find that agin....

See, that's the kind of thing I'm talking about.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

James Downey said:


> Does it matter if it's a radial or all-terrian?..Jack's big on the R-15, I don't want my dog to be a puss, Maybe I will use a R16....Hell what not just get a tractor tire, like the ones grandpa made my sand box out of.


My little 45 lb female nailed a R16 one time it was pretty funny to see. We rolled the tire she nailed it and kept flipping over and over as the tire spun going down the little hill until it bonked into a tree, never let her grip go and then proceeded to try to drag the tire and animate it herself. Her Dad used to drag those same tires all over the place. But the steel belts were murder on his canines as he was puncturing the tires with his grips, so they had to chuck the tires our else he wouldn't have a tooth left in his mouth. 

I don't really know the value of basing a selection of a working dog on the ability to engage a tire. There seems to be many other safer ways to select a working dog than this.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Robert Palmer said:


> Wait a second...didn't this Stuttle guy show a video of a dog attacking a rubber swimming pool and implying what high drive that is? LOL
> 
> Lemme find that agin....
> 
> See, that's the kind of thing I'm talking about.


I did post a video of a high drive dog destroying a plastic pool. However that was done in humor, certainly not to imply that the dog was worthy of any type of work. 
Sometimes good dogs will do crazy shit like that, sometimes total shitters will also behave the same way with shit like that. I'm sure many of my dogs would go crazy for a tire if i allowed them to, but since it is of ablolutely no use to me i dont allow it.
The dog killing the pool was an accident, I walked around the corner and he was already 1/2 way finished killing it. My wife at the time was standing on the deck laughing and filming it. That was a nice dog, but certainly not as nice as many other dogs who would not give two shits about that pool.


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## Eric Cintron (Mar 23, 2011)

Jack Lee said:


> a car tire , R15 type ,is about 10 KG. put the tire flatly on ground , when the dog see the car tire , some dog will be very motivated , and go to get the car tire .
> but the tire is not easy for the dog to pick up by his mouth .
> 
> My opinion is that those dog try best and succeed (even easily ) to pick up and carry away the tire prove definitely strong prey and full of fight drive.
> ...


 
...as Bruce Lee would say "nice..........,but tire did not fight back" !!!!!

ps...thanks for the laugh guys! :lol:


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> We have a pitbull in here now for board and train that will attack trees. What does that mean? Is she a police dog prospect too?


Mike you have a lot of tests that other consider retarded!
Haven't you even went as far to choke a dog off in a video and say you weren't building drive? Very funny! 
Come on you hypocrite!
Daryly E, are you serious? We have seen your videos!

Jack, are you the one who made the video of "Malinois in China"

I feel this is appropriate for many here!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Palmer 
I know almost nothing about any of this.

Bob Scott: Then you may wan to leave the discussion to those that do know!


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## Robert Palmer (Oct 17, 2011)

>>>I did post a video of a high drive dog destroying a plastic pool. However that was done in humor, certainly not to imply that the dog was worthy of any type of work. 

Ok. =;


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Mike you have a lot of tests that other consider retarded!
> Haven't you even went as far to choke a dog off in a video and say you weren't building drive? Very funny!
> Come on you hypocrite!


Actually Tim in the video you are referring to, I walked to dog past a metal pipe when he was totally out of drive. After he picked it up and got possesive over it, then of course choking him off of it build him further in drive. But my point in that video was his initial response to the pipe was when he was simply out for a walk totally out of drive.

As far as my tests that people think are retarted, those are the tests that my clients do when I show them dogs. So retarted or not, the dogs must do those things or they fail. those are not my rules, they are the rules of the Govt. agencies I deal with.

And honestly most of the people who think the metal pipe test is retarted are usually the people who's dogs dont have the drive to retrieve and fight with the metal with the intensity I need. LOL

There are hundreds of very good trainers in Holland who use metal pipes as rewards for their dogs everyday. I dont know of any who use tires.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> There are hundreds of very good trainers in Holland who use metal pipes as rewards for their dogs everyday. I dont know of any who use tires.


Or maybe the dogs that don't do it weren't imprInted on them at a young age .... Geez!!!!! Maybe?

Remember your boy from holland coming on here and asking about a dog that had everything but would not pick up "copper"? Was that due to drive? He would pick up metal just not copper!

If your boy frOm holland started the tire thing you'd be all over it!


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## Derek Milliken (Apr 19, 2009)

I was having fun with this thread. One of those "Oh boy, here we go" moments that happen on here from time to time.
So, back to the original topic, bowling balls were mentioned. 5 pin or 10 pin? And can my dog have one of those fancy custom painted ones? If he can pick it up of course.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Daryly E, are you serious? We have seen your videos!


Yeah, I'm serious. The dog is a dork, like I said. Prettier than you, though :-D


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> Actually Tim in the video you are referring to, I walked to dog past a metal pipe when he was totally out of drive. After he picked it up and got possesive over it, then of course choking him off of it build him further in drive. But my point in that video was his initial response to the pipe was when he was simply out for a walk totally out of drive.


It's a conditioned response from a kennel dog who's only outlet to release drive is from a metal pipe! Do it 5 times and ......
Who knows, maybe you began filming after you built him up in frenzy! The tricks one can do with a camera!


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Timothy Stacy said:


> It's a conditioned response from a kennel dog who's only outlet to release drive is from a metal pipe! Do it 5 times and ......
> Who knows, maybe you began filming after you built him up in frenzy! The tricks one can do with a camera!


 Im not going to argue with you about it Tiim. I always thought we got along well, everytime you called me in the past to ask questions about the Dutch Shepherd that you had just got I was always as helpful with you as I could have been. And you've called me several times to discuss dogs and each time I thought it went fine, I actually thought you were a nice guy. 
Anyway, you are welcome to ask Beth Koenig ( I think she is a member on here) She was here from California filming that day, she filmed the video you are referring to. Ask her how that was done.
And if you dont think that pup had a ton of natural drive to retrieve you can ask Randall Gore, he is also a member on here. His PD now owns that dog where it is being used as a dual purpose dog. 
I honestly dont care what you think of my dogs or my selection tests, or our training. My job is to provide dogs that will pass the selection tests of our clients, and then go on to be successful in the jobs they are trained to do. I do that with a pretty good % sucess rate, so I dont intend on changing anything.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

"My job is to provide dogs that will pass the selection tests of our clients, and then go on to be successful in the jobs they are trained to do. I do that with a pretty good % sucess rate, so I dont intend on changing anything."

Thus the significant difference between the talkers and the doers. Which is exactly why earlier in this thread I asked this question: "Six pages of discussion. I'd be interested in know just how many of those involved, in this discussion of selecting police canines, have actually selected "police" canines. Dogs that were entered into training, completed training and are now or were active police service dogs. You can count me as a yes I have and still am." 

DFrost


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

I agree, you are a nice guy as well! Sorry if I offended you! I just thought that you'd know what the OP is going through here and slightly what he is getting at! He has to defend himself in a second language!
You have always been helpful to me!


mike suttle said:


> Im not going to argue with you about it Tiim. I always thought we got along well, everytime you called me in the past to ask questions about the Dutch Shepherd that you had just got I was always as helpful with you as I could have been. And you've called me several times to discuss dogs and each time I thought it went fine, I actually thought you were a nice guy.
> Anyway, you are welcome to ask Beth Koenig ( I think she is a member on here) She was here from California filming that day, she filmed the video you are referring to. Ask her how that was done.
> And if you dont think that pup had a ton of natural drive to retrieve you can ask Randall Gore, he is also a member on here. His PD now owns that dog where it is being used as a dual purpose dog.
> I honestly dont care what you think of my dogs or my selection tests, or our training. My job is to provide dogs that will pass the selection tests of our clients, and then go on to be successful in the jobs they are trained to do. I do that with a pretty good % sucess rate, so I dont intend on changing anything.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

David Frost said:


> I'd be interested in know just how many of those involved, in this discussion of selecting police canines, have actually selected "police" canines. Dogs that were entered into training, completed training and are now or were active police service dogs. You can count me as a yes I have and still am."
> 
> DFrost


Am I witnessing a new rule where one must have direct involvement on the topic at hand to discuss/or even be credible?
I have,so I'm in on this :-\"

If a dog can't do this for a bite I would not think of putting them in a Police home!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYp-CVQuEao


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Am I witnessing a new rule where one must have direct involvement on the topic at hand to discuss/or even be credible?
> I have,so I'm in on this :-\"
> 
> If a dog can't do this for a bite I would not think of putting them in a Police home!
> ...


No new rule. I'm still a member of the forum and allowed to ask questions. I stay out of the sport venues. While I may ask a question, I don't have the knowledge to participate in a worthwhile discussion. I do however, have some knowledge in the selection and training of police canines where this particular thread resides. It's interesting to read the response of some folks, because it's obvious, by their answers, they have very little practical experience and only regurgitate what they've seen or heard. To the second part of your question: "If a dog can't do this for a bite I would not think of putting them in a Police home!" are you talking about carrying the tire? I have no experience with that particular test and in fact, have never heard of it before this thread. If it's part of someone's selection process and it works for them, who am I to say it isn't any good. It just isn't for me. 

DFrost


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

No they must run through or touch fire to get a bite! I posted a link to the video


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

All dogs are afraid of fire, all! If a dog can be "trained" to abandon its fear of fire it can be trained to go through anything! 
This behavior is trained and there is no dog who will do it without the proper "extreme drives" and training!
A dog who can not be trained to abandon this fear will surely falter at some point in the field!


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Timothy Stacy said:


> No they must run through or touch fire to get a bite! I posted a link to the video


Oh, well alrighty then


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

David Frost said:


> Oh, well alrighty then


I know, a bit off topic and not related to detection work but non the less, combine my technique with the metal retrieving and tire retrieve and you have yourself a dual purpose K9 son!


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Don't know if I have the experience to deal with that type of super dog. I sure don't have the time left to learn how. ha ha

DFrost


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## Jon Harris (Nov 23, 2011)

Maybe it the dog is good with tires and good with metal 

He can change the tire when his trainer get a flat. :lol:


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## Jack Lee (Mar 26, 2009)

one thing is clear : there are limits for dog as a group .
so what ?! 
near limit ,you will see many thing.

IMO ,mental pipe is related to solidity .but , still it is not the heart of dog trainning . the reason is that policedog is not for fighting to death. And those dog liking mental pipes is not definite to have strong prey.

so what is strong prey ?
once , somebody ask one training master ,Do dog work for itself or for humankind? really stupid question? actually not at all.
this is important question.

KNPV dogs bite like alligator. but why policedog should not bite like alligator? some caution is needed for not getting wounded , at this time , where is solidity ? and if the dog is overconfident , the fighting process is actually not so smooth , thus the dog will be surprised and then less so solid, again where is the solidity now?
a famous saying in china goes, hardness is crisp.

dog's mental is complex (science), the best suitable dog is in theory but it will provided good understanding the complex real situation .


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## Jack Lee (Mar 26, 2009)

somebody give me your email-address, please . I can not post pictures here.


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## Jack Lee (Mar 26, 2009)

Timothy Stacy said:


> All dogs are afraid of fire, all! If a dog can be "trained" to abandon its fear of fire it can be trained to go through anything!
> This behavior is trained and there is no dog who will do it without the proper "extreme drives" and training!
> A dog who can not be trained to abandon this fear will surely falter at some point in the field!



Are you suspicious that the dog in video (malinois in china ) will fail your fire test ? :-o


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## Jack Lee (Mar 26, 2009)

Geoff Empey said:


> My little 45 lb female nailed a R16 one time it was pretty funny to see. We rolled the tire she nailed it and kept flipping over and over as the tire spun going down the little hill until it bonked into a tree, never let her grip go and then proceeded to try to drag the tire and animate it herself. Her Dad used to drag those same tires all over the place. But the steel belts were murder on his canines as he was puncturing the tires with his grips, so they had to chuck the tires our else he wouldn't have a tooth left in his mouth.
> 
> I don't really know the value of basing a selection of a working dog on the ability to engage a tire. There seems to be many other safer ways to select a working dog than this.


there is difference between play and prey drive. it is not dragging , it is holding up that matters.
few dogs have fight drive . many many dogs will drag. fewer CAN hold up.


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Jack Lee said:


> there is difference between play and prey drive. it is not dragging , it is holding up that matters.
> few dogs have fight drive . many many dogs will drag. fewer CAN hold up.


Come on now, seriously! I understand there are many selection tests out there and not all make sense to everyone. But I just cannot understand how holding up a tire equals fight drive. What if the dog is just not physically strong enough to hold up the tire? What if the dog is confident, intense and angry and has all the fight in the world, but just doesn't have the stature that allows him to pick up a tire? Does that change his character? What else do you look for besides the ability to hold up a tire? Anything? Or is selection based solely upon that?


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## Jack Lee (Mar 26, 2009)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Come on now, seriously! I understand there are many selection tests out there and not all make sense to everyone. But I just cannot understand how holding up a tire equals fight drive. What if the dog is just not physically strong enough to hold up the tire? What if the dog is confident, intense and angry and has all the fight in the world, but just doesn't have the stature that allows him to pick up a tire? Does that change his character? What else do you look for besides the ability to hold up a tire? Anything? Or is selection based solely upon that?


IMO,
If the dog is confident ,intense and angry has all the fight in the work , AND the dog HAS strong prey , the dog can do the job.
If the same dog can not do the job , the dog doesn't have strong prey or true prey , STILL , the dog can be aggrresive.
IMO , you CAN NOT train the dog to pick up a tire , it is borne by nature.
aggression is not fight drive.
because fight drive is about fun .


what else do I prefer ?
enviomental stability and emotion and defense-prey quick transfer ability and cleverness.

By the way , do me a favor , give me your email-address , help post my pictures , I hope pictures helps a lot .


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## Jack Lee (Mar 26, 2009)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Come on now, seriously! I understand there are many selection tests out there and not all make sense to everyone. But I just cannot understand how holding up a tire equals fight drive. What if the dog is just not physically strong enough to hold up the tire? What if the dog is confident, intense and angry and has all the fight in the world, but just doesn't have the stature that allows him to pick up a tire? Does that change his character? What else do you look for besides the ability to hold up a tire? Anything? Or is selection based solely upon that?


 how holding up a tire equals fight drive?
because of the size of tire , there is pulling -out force against dog , (like a struggling prey full of strength). and it is really hard work , dog has to use all it's mental and bodily strength, even defense drive in this case. and if the dog can not pick up ,the dog will be a little frightened . 

then you imagine , the big size tire is a bad guy ( some part of his body is in the dog's mouth ,some part is out ), that is the difference of heavy dumbbell or bowling ball . 
the whole image is quite different form hanging on tug/ball/sleeve which is on tree.

by this test , small size dog is not OK for big-size tire . that partly explain why patrol dog should be not small size .

most important is : same size dog ,only strong prey dogs ,can pick up specific tire.
IMO , This test will not hurt dog's teeth . The tire is soft ,like the flesh of animal. 

I prefer dog pass loucastle's stake test, a very stable one. BUT ,have TRUE PREY and soon.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Jack u for real, I cant believe a Chinese guy doesn't know how to post pics on internet, if a dumb aussie from the bush can figure it out a Chinese can do it.

Thanks for buying our coal to dude, lots of people gettin paid big cos of u guys - I love China and Chinese food, just step up the quality assurance in the childrens toy manufacture industry and food related export industry and all will be cool.


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## Jack Lee (Mar 26, 2009)

David Frost said:


> Don't know if I have the experience to deal with that type of super dog. I sure don't have the time left to learn how. ha ha
> 
> DFrost



You also have NO time to think and understand, or any brain job .
how luckily ! you have know enough things about dog.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Jack u for real, I cant believe a Chinese guy doesn't know how to post pics on internet, if a dumb aussie from the bush can figure it out a Chinese can do it.
> 
> Thanks for buying our coal to dude, lots of people gettin paid big cos of u guys - I love China and Chinese food, just step up the quality assurance in the childrens toy manufacture industry and food related export industry and all will be cool.


LMAO Damn good post!


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Yeah David, stick to mental pipes.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Jack Lee said:


> Are you suspicious that the dog in video (malinois in china ) will fail your fire test ? :-o


Not at all Jack!
I like reading your posts!
The fire test is extreme and most think they have extreme but my definition of extreme is not best described by extreme, I need a new word!


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

XXX, ("Triple X")


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Daryl Ehret said:


> XXX, ("Triple X")


This could work! It's just a tier above the most extreme!


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## manny rose (Jun 3, 2010)

David Frost said:


> "My job is to provide dogs that will pass the selection tests of our clients, and then go on to be successful in the jobs they are trained to do. I do that with a pretty good % sucess rate, so I dont intend on changing anything."
> 
> Thus the significant difference between the talkers and the doers. Which is exactly why earlier in this thread I asked this question: "Six pages of discussion. I'd be interested in know just how many of those involved, in this discussion of selecting police canines, have actually selected "police" canines. Dogs that were entered into training, completed training and are now or were active police service dogs. You can count me as a yes I have and still am."
> 
> DFrost


 So i guess only you and the other police k9 instructors reply? I could be wrong but Mike and many others im sure know a lil bout this dog game but i guess not by your criteria:-& if there wernt people prepping good green prospects lets be honest...WHAT WOUL YOU DO? You get a dog dam near 60 to 70% there and then talk as if you got the dog where it needs to be. Id like to see what some of YOU Guys would end up with if given a batch of pups then checking back in 18 mths. My bet is not too many green dogs


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jack Lee said:


> I can not post pictures here.


Do you have pictures on a Photobucket-type account? You can post a link.


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## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

Now, if the dog will carry a tire that's on fire, while biting through the steel reinforcing, NOW you REALLY got something.

Sorry, couldn't help myself. I apologize.


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

Skip Morgart said:


> Now, if the dog will carry a tire that's on fire, while biting through the steel reinforcing, NOW you REALLY got something.
> 
> Sorry, couldn't help myself. I apologize.


Let's add firecrackers on the inside of the tire too. That way we can assault all of their senses at once.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Do you have pictures on a Photobucket-type account? You can post a link.


There internet is really kinda monitored. Many emails are not sent out or received when you are there depending on your text. Posting a picture or video can be challenging to say the least sometimes. My understanding is they don’t have access to youtube in most areas. I have had some challenging experiences with communicating. 
Remember that whole communism thing. 
Jack feel free to correct me if I am wrong


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Timothy Stacy said:


> All dogs are afraid of fire, all! If a dog can be "trained" to abandon its fear of fire it can be trained to go through anything!
> This behavior is trained and there is no dog who will do it without the proper "extreme drives" and training!
> A dog who can not be trained to abandon this fear will surely falter at some point in the field!


Are you really serious about this? I don’t know what to take from most of this


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

This is why they rather tires over there. 
http://vitals.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/04/04/11022408-fda-inspectors-probe-pet-jerky-treats-in-china


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## Jack Lee (Mar 26, 2009)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Do you have pictures on a Photobucket-type account? You can post a link.


thank you .

http://s1079.photobucket.com/albums/w509/jackleelv/?action=view&current=1c16f9b4.jpg
this shows how much hard job for the dog.

http://s1079.photobucket.com/albums/w509/jackleelv/?action=view&current=6.jpg
http://s1079.photobucket.com/albums/w509/jackleelv/?action=view&current=c0a28c10.jpg
this show how much dertermined and aslo something extreme.

http://s1079.photobucket.com/albums/w509/jackleelv/?action=view&current=DSC01690.jpg
this show the desire and courage .

http://s1079.photobucket.com/albums/w509/jackleelv/?action=view&current=2012-03-12-009.jpg
this show how social and natural . this dog is certainly not prey monster.


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## Jack Lee (Mar 26, 2009)

Timothy Stacy said:


> This could work! It's just a tier above the most extreme!



military dog do check the dog's fear of fire . this is selection test.
what you do is really extreme.
how about breakthrough ?


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## Jack Lee (Mar 26, 2009)

Chris McDonald said:


> There internet is really kinda monitored. Many emails are not sent out or received when you are there depending on your text. Posting a picture or video can be challenging to say the least sometimes. My understanding is they don’t have access to youtube in most areas. I have had some challenging experiences with communicating.
> Remember that whole communism thing.
> Jack feel free to correct me if I am wrong


chris , if you open your mind , you will see more strange things in china .
for example ,there are more freedom in china than in american .
not joking.
time will improve everything.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Jack Lee said:


> chris , if you open your mind , you will see more strange things in china .
> for example ,there are more freedom in china than in american .
> not joking.
> time will improve everything.


You are absolutely right there are many examples that allow you guys to have more freedoms than the USA. I learned a lot about that and did not expect it. Everyone I meet was nice and very interested in talking with me. Most people there knew more about the US constitution and our history than many Americans know. 
I was warned time and time again that we Americans are allowing for our government to take away too many of our freedoms by people who know all to well. They were all truly concerned about the loss of Freedoms in America and the impact it will have on the world. I really did open my eyes to many things I never even thought about. I had some great conversations with a lot of very interesting people. I was recently thinking about things I was told when Apple a US company insisted that employees of the Chinese companies making Apple products could not work over 40 hours a week, or it would be considered abuse. Nothing like losing the freedom to work as you like and make better for yourself. 
I wasn’t knocking things about you possibly not being able to up load pictures or videos. I am amazed at how regulated the internet is. The internet is communisms worst enemy. Again yes I agree you do have many freedoms we do not. We continue to lose ours and you are gaining yours. 
Looking forward to my next trip. 
Back to the tire


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## Jack Lee (Mar 26, 2009)

_partial delete ..... let's get back to dogs and away from politics. Thanks!_



many economic experts don't understand economics , it is very same that many dog experts do not understand dogs, but they do understand money so follow RULES.
again ,there is some biological factors ,not mere moral issue.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

_"Back to the tire"_



Just a reminder about avoiding politics here. Thanks!


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## Jeff Wright (Mar 10, 2011)

mike suttle said:


> How much can you pay me for puppies who will kill chickens? I can ship them directly to China. I usually have 8-10 puppies in each litter, I'd guess I could have them all killing chickens by about 10 weeks of age. I can produce about 10 litters per year for you here. So is there a big enough market in China to support the export of 80-100 chicken killing Malinois puppies. Perhaps we can both make some money with this.
> Here where I live, the problem is that dogs who kill chickens usually get shot. Killing chickens is very easy (and very natural) for dogs, but if that impresses you we can go into the business.



OMG .. I am laughing so hard ,I spit Coffee all over my keyboard.
Just trying to do the math here myself.I just need to figure out how many billion of chickens the billion chinese own to get to work training chicken killers.
My fortune in Dogs is now clear as a good Won Ton Soup.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Chris McDonald said:


> Are you really serious about this? I don’t know what to take from most of this


Have you ever known me to joke around?
Fire and tires = dual purpose

I'm talking about telling a dog to go stand in a fire to get a bite, much like a fire touch pad!
A bit extreme but my standards are high. Only European dogs have been able to pass these extreme test! Never has there been a dog bred in the USA who passed! thats why I encourage importing from Europe !


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Hey Jack
- in case you haven't figured it out yet ....

NOBODY is gonna take your opinion that a dog who goes out and picks up a tire is demonstrating fight drive...NOBODY

if you think it is a valid test, which you obviously do, then Do it and CLEARLY show the results of it with at least 20-30 dogs...any size any breed 
- as in : a dog picks up tire on its own and than a vid of the same dog showing fight drive in any protection related session you plan out
- or, do it in reverse ...show the protection related fight drive first and than do a tire test; maybe the dog just never got a chance to pick one up 

- find a friend to put em on youtube and everyone here will watch em
- and don't add political comments or they will get censored and we won't be able to watch em

otherwise, this is just too easy to make jokes about, whether they believe in fight drive or not, and it is a total waste of your valuable time that you could be spending testing dogs to prove your theory
- since i recall you mentioned something about some chinese K9 leos that believe in it too, go ahead and include their dogs too, even if they already tested positive on tires b4 they were trained as PSDs ... that should make testing go even quicker 

i sure don't believe it's related behavior either, but i've seen stranger animal stuff that nobody would believe if it hadn't been filmed :
- wild adult leopard that killed a baboon momma but took her baby under it's wing until it finally got cold and died
- wild african lion that liked to keep gazelles (or maybe impala ?) for buddies rather than eat em

otherwise (and it's not a chinese saying so it may not make sense), you are pissing in the wind


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

what about a big 20 lb tree branch?

to me all picking up a tire really shows is that the dog is determined to pick it up (if it is difficult for him to do so), and that he has the physical strength to perform the task.

If he likes to wrestle it and toss it, then I could even say that he might like to "fight" the tire, and possibly even enjoy "dominating" the tire (object....LOL) and that the dog has drive for the object.

I think that this has little relation to fighting a person though, meaning a dog that does it has "fight drive"...but also would not consider it a bad thing at all if the dog had all the traits necessary for fighting a man and could also carry a tire around with him. It does show some strength and determination.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Guys you idiots, Jack is speaking in code, they can get in big trouble for speaking out, he's trying to get a vital message to the world.

Stop thinkin of the tyre as tyre, its key.to the whole secret code,

fight drive is a metaphor 

Come on guys THINK 

'Jack' may not have much time.


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## Jeff Wright (Mar 10, 2011)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Guys you idiots, Jack is speaking in code, they can get in big trouble for speaking out, he's trying to get a vital message to the world.
> 
> Stop thinkin of the tyre as tyre, its key.to the whole secret code,
> 
> ...


Not a word out of "Jack" in some time now.. you may have been right.
I honestly think what is happening is that he is using some kind of translation program that obviously isnt up to snuff at a minimum.
Along with some batsh*t training ideas...


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I don't think of tyre as tyre. I think of tyre as tire!


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## Jack Lee (Mar 26, 2009)

rick smith said:


> Hey Jack
> - in case you haven't figured it out yet ....
> 
> NOBODY is gonna take your opinion that a dog who goes out and picks up a tire is demonstrating fight drive...NOBODY"
> ...


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

But the rock is the impala, to understand the soul the swan sits on the tire/tyre when lion is in the cave and the body is not eaten = FD


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> But the rock is the impala, to understand the soul the swan sits on the tire/tyre when lion is in the cave and the body is not eaten = FD


Now we're talking profound,, I mean profane!!:???:


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

The ibis is


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## Josh Huffstetler (Feb 26, 2011)

How do you think this demonstrating any form of prey drive at all its a freaking tire that is laying there!


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

This is the most stupid thread in along time and i cant believe you guys are even giving him fuel for his ridiculous notions. *mod edit*


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

mike suttle said:


> How much can you pay me for puppies who will kill chickens? I can ship them directly to China. I usually have 8-10 puppies in each litter, I'd guess I could have them all killing chickens by about 10 weeks of age. I can produce about 10 litters per year for you here. So is there a big enough market in China to support the export of 80-100 chicken killing Malinois puppies. Perhaps we can both make some money with this.
> Here where I live, the problem is that dogs who kill chickens usually get shot. Killing chickens is very easy (and very natural) for dogs, but if that impresses you we can go into the business.


I spent most of my pups' early lives trying to ensure they didn't kill cats, chickens, sheep, injure horses, etc. What is the big deal!!


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

mike suttle said:


> Obviously not the same thing Downey.......We are talking about the importance of fighting a tire, and how that will translate to carrying a man and being at peace with the cat. Come on man, get with the program!!


Especially if you're sitting on it!!


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## Jack Lee (Mar 26, 2009)

Almost No one is sure he understand it and explain it.
So , suddenly , one obscure guy had one stupid idea and present it . the guy should not be FD expert certainly.

to compensate for wasting reading this thred , just for some compensation, here is something funny (for me).

there are several types will disagree most,psychologycally，just guseeing 

so here is the list:

a) those feel too difficult to catch or follow and just throw away ;
b) those understand picking up a tire ,NO mistakely . 
c) those understand FD enough ,and not curiously .
d) those stick to how to get a conclusion in scientific method . but forget , most thing about dog is like art, not so much scientificly.
e )Those who believe only trainer ,like himself can check and prove FD. 
f) Those who believe it is just No reason for a dog to waste its mental and physical strength to pick up a tire .
g) those who forget jack is talking about working dog (gsd ,malin).
h) those who believe FD is something mostly about killing
I) those who eat chicken , but never allow dog kill a chicken, for any purpose 
J) those who will never pick a dog , say like this puppy (say 2.5months) which kill a big chicken(big turkey), and retrieve 20 meters , and sell the puppy not very expensively.
L) those who will never pick a dog , say like thi pupy (say 2.5months) which pick up a Dead big chicken(big turkey), and retrieve 20 meters ,and sell the puppy not very expensively.
k) those who believe FD is automatic , fueling is not nessarily.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Okay, so let's get a little adhead of your presumtion about the connection of prey drive and tires, and suppose for a moment that _what you say is true_. Then what? What usefulness do you receive from such a dog that you have established to meets the requirements for this test?

Is it even for the purpose of training them for protection work, to oppose a direct confrontational threat or to apprehend a fleeing man? Can you connect the dots and provide a video example that represents such a dog, both in test, and in bite training on a human?

If you send a video file, another party here (such as myself) could upload it to youtube for you, right?

Ozzy, the dog with the tire in the video I posted, is in no way specially compareable in bitework to other dogs I've owned that had NO interest in tires (or displays of dominating inanimate objects). I'd view your analogy more as a "coincidence" than a "correlation".

I apologize if I'm feeding a ridiculous thread, but if everyone would quit commenting here, it wouldn't keep drawing attention, including my own. If anything interesting can be derived from this, THEN OUT WITH IT, or let's move on and cease this senseless banter. Hard enough to find any worthwhile topics to read lately.


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## Jack Lee (Mar 26, 2009)

why two dog trainer disagree most ? it is also caused by their knowledge.
here for correlation , only 100% is useful ? actually , 30% is useful and helpful for complicated things.
like you picking up a dog from bloodline , 3 of 10 are good dogs , then you are happy.
so ,if you have your adverse examples (7 of 10) , you can not deny the remained 30%, that the bloodline reference is useful.
few can understand this point here.
------
my Chinese trainer friend , he can not understand picking up a dead tyre is prey , very funny , he is sure to agree with picking up a dead ball /tug is prey .
Once , I put straightforwardly to him : " you still don't understand prey drive".
That guy is really curious and clever guy , so it should be same here , I guess. 
FD is quite about prey , if one deeply understand prey , he can understand FD quite possibly.
----
And as you have evidence to support your belief , so what is the meaning of my demonstration video ?
--------------------------
there are many signs to pick a dog , Do you agree ? 
lou's stake out test is mainly about "soul" .Do you have any doubt about the stake out test?
I like to pick up a dog that never curl its tail inside , very few dog has this trait , it is reasonable that the dog quite possibly will pass lou's stake out test 
I ask several trainer :" have you seen a dog NEVER (0%) curl its tail inside ?" "never" is their answer. 
But How can I convince them that this kind dog is a kind of TReasure ? at the same time , he believes he can "train" the dog upto IPO3 or IPO4 and full of "FD", but never have experience of "special" dog
--------------------
picking up a tyre test is just a test , a check . To me , it is the baseline of excellent dog.
----------------------------
All I say is for PPD ,even for patrol dog , good foundation + very good dog , the job is quite easy to very easy. 
------------------
If One design picking tyre test carefully , let the dog feel not easy , put dog in struggel , one can see the dog's soul clearly and interestingly , maybe efficiently.


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## Jack Lee (Mar 26, 2009)

here is one true story ， a army dog battalion had a long time experience， but one dog is never expected to be excellent and shockingly the dog finished some famous jobs . the leader trainer pitied himself " how could I missed such dog for over 20 years experiences " latter , they tried to find the signs of this dog ， actually find one : the dog can climb up and down the vertical ladder quite naturally.
I don't want to put it into myth . that is the reason or maybe not 
but it is sure that dog is not so hero usually .
so there is something missed in reading dog .
--------------------------
there are many versions about FD in US . ARMIN WINKLER is the best theorist , but even to him , there is something important he missed.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

_"picking up a tyre test is just a test , a check . To me , it is the baseline of excellent dog."_

If I selected dogs BASED on that requirement, I would have missed out on some seriously gifted dogs. Then I'd be left with a dog who couldn't earn his other checkmarks. This DOES remind me of the copper pipe test now. Yes, we probably all have some tests that are important to us, and I would put greater importance on different ones, myself.


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## Jack Lee (Mar 26, 2009)

ED and michael ellis use PVC tube to train dog to hold on , but I use PVC tube to tug one of my dog , everything impressive , this dog can be titled Ipo3 or PH1 . she will struggle angrily on tyre .she has not perfect prey (to me )
--------------------------------------------
All versions of FD neglect to probe possessiveness , the most important component of prey . there is reason for fighting for fun naturally , core is to gain , to possess opponent prey .
full mouth is the key to pick up a tyre . because of strong instinct to carry away and hide (possesiveness ) ( I call this is true prey ), the motor is on ,so he will try his best ,in this case , full mouth . otherwise the tyre does not move much. 
Put dog in real struggle , check full mouth(carry away).
thus ,it is possible to be full mouth in any routine training and test.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

jack
yesterday my dog had trouble retrieving a brand new sneaker (small size)
...but he had a full mouth, motor was on and trying to carry it back to me, etc, but only moved it 2-3 feet////// :-(

i'm glad he liked my 5yr old next door neighbor girl, who was wearing it, and glad she likes my dog 

what does this demonstrate ??
he never did this before...sneaker was new; squeaking and flashing lights


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## Jack Lee (Mar 26, 2009)

rick smith said:


> jack
> yesterday my dog had trouble retrieving a brand new sneaker (small size)
> ...but he had a full mouth, motor was on and trying to carry it back to me, etc, but only moved it 2-3 feet////// :-(
> 
> ...


if dog wanted to carry away or hide , the dog will pick up and carry away .
:-D


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Jack Lee said:


> here is one true story ， a army dog battalion had a long time experience， but one dog is never expected to be excellent and shockingly the dog finished some famous jobs . the leader trainer pitied himself " how could I missed such dog for over 20 years experiences " latter , they tried to find the signs of this dog ， actually find one : the dog can climb up and down the vertical ladder quite naturally.
> I don't want to put it into myth . that is the reason or maybe not
> but it is sure that dog is not so hero usually .
> so there is something missed in reading dog .
> ...



Jack do u play tug with tyre,.retrieve it, do a search...?, I missed that bit, I get the carry part.


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## Jack Lee (Mar 26, 2009)

I can tug the tyre with the dog , tugging reduce the weight of the tyre. for search , it is "same" to the dog as a ball.
today , my trainer friend can get that most important part of prey behavior is not to chase or to kill or bite ( a deer) , is carry away and hide big animal (CAH) .
for example , some dogs have prey bias ;my way is put disliked item into dog crate, let the dog possess/have/play prey object ( tug ,sleeve etc. ) , later the willingness to get Their items/prey object will improve.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

If anything this guy Jack is showing everyone how stupid, useless or misleading all tests can be or to a smaller degree how much/ little they can tell you. As for the questions regarding how this tire test shows prey drive (if you believe in prey or not). Why cant it show what someone is looking for just as much as any other goofy test? I don’t know exactly how it is done but if you pulled up to a field, took your dog out of the truck and told your dog to “fetch” or whatever word you want to use the tire by pointing to the tire and the dog does it does show something. And how the dog decides to carry it in proportion to its size (we will call it tire size to dog weight ratio) may also tell you something. So you pull up to a field with just a tire in it and are told to tell your dog to “get it” “take” “fetch” whatever. 
Your dog does:
Nothing just looks at you 
Runs up to the tire and does nothing or just mouths it
Runs up to the tire drags and plays with it
Runs up to the tire picks it up and carries it back to you. 

Maybe Jake found dogs that do this perform bite work as he likes? 
It sounds better to me than the “wave a towel and a pup climbs a baby gate test”? 

Not to bust on anything but is this really different than Mike wanting dogs that will carry copper? Somewhere someone in our government decided this to be a worthy trait in a dog for whatever the reason. Mikes job is to give is customers what they want and he does. He does not have to agree with what they want. If someone came to Mike and said I need X number of dogs that will pick up a tire and carry it and I will pay X for each one. It would then be Mikes job to get those dogs. 

The other thing I got to say here is no matter how well Jakes English is there are huge differences in the meanings of the translations and uses of words. He may be typing something in English and we may be reading it but it may have a complete and total different meaning to him then some of us. Hell, I think wars have been started over stuff like this. People were saying completely different things but meant the same exact thing and totally agreed with each other. But because of that whole cultural thing wound up killing each other. 
The whole meaning of to carry a man off is more than likely a cultural translation issue. 
You guys cant even agree to each other what all the silly little dog words you made up to try to use to make each of you look smarter to the other dog trainer mean. I have very, very minimal experience working and communication with the Asian cultural but there is a ton to learn in just trying to communicate. In other cultures and languages there are some differences. On the easy side is an Australians a man calling me his good mate? And that’s both speaking the same language. That whole eastern-western stuff gets crazy. A word translator and a dictionary aren’t enough what is trying to be said and explained cant be taught via trust reading about it or being told it has to be experienced over a long period of time. What you can do is understand this and try and work with it the best you can realizing it may take a lot more time to ensure you are both on the same page. If you ask me that is what is going on here right now… a cultural misunderstanding. It is very unlikely and would be difficult that it will be overcome on a chat room.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

God I'm really confused now.....I don't know if my dogs hunt because of prey drive, hunt drive, pig drive or fight drive.........I do know it's not ball or rag drive..... Help!!! roflmfao


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Chris, totally agree on the cultural translation. I was going to stick my neb in with something not dissimilar a while back.


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## Jack Lee (Mar 26, 2009)

chris , thanks .
however , it is more than culture difference.

One basic question : a dog work for itsself or a dog for handler . 
the handler in malinois in china , train dog to work for itsself.
-----------------
Here is my argument .
drive / drive satisfation . step1drive, step2drive, Steps3drive.
prey ： step 1 =chase/hunt ;step 2= kill/struggle ; step 3= carry away +hide(CAH) ( as you preserve your money or anything you like).
So step3(CAH) drive is satisfied only until step3. To satisfy STEP3 drive , the dog must finish step1 and step2 ,NOT give up in step1 or step2. step1 and step2 are all about procedure of protecion .

Don't confuse warrior way ( fight agaist prey) and political way( fight agaist dog for prey)
-------------------------------
So, this drive (CAH) is forword and brave and for fun . it is the baisc core of natural fight drive, IMO.
-----------------
so the dog is quite possessive genetically. retrive drive is quite against the steps3 drive. 
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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Man i'm starting to get some of this.


Like bernhard flinks possession is good, mike ellis possession is bad.


Ying yang


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