# strength training



## sam wilks (May 3, 2009)

Im looking for ways to exercise dogs to build up there strength and endurance. Something for younger dogs thats not hard on their body!


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Swimming.Or exercises in the water... You get water up to their shoulders and walk them in it... or have them retrieving in that shoulder depth water.


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## joshua thor (Jun 18, 2010)

later on to bikejoring.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Where do you live and what do you have access to? I am generally inclined to work my dogs freely and in natural environments and that often does include running them with an ATV. In Alaska, I have that luxury but likely would not elsewhere.

Swimming is an excellent suggestion, but if the dog isn't drawn to the water that would limit your options some.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

You asked a similar question before and the answer is similar:

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f25/protein-supplements-21521/#post294339

Swimming is very good, as mentioned. When conditioning my dog for extreme vertical for dock diving, I have him do hill sprints by putting a toy at the top of the hill and having him retrieve it from the bottom. Then we do some dock diving exercises and swimming. By doing this, I improved his extreme vertical personal best from 5'10" (which we were stuck at for a while) to 6'8" in about 6 weeks. Core strength training is very important as well. Dog "squats" like this are what to build up to, but start by teaching them "sit pretty" on a carpeted surface or grass first.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpyYc9VckVs


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

1. swimming will always be my number one ... making em swim as fast as they can is the best for building up; otherwise it's mostly a cardio workout ... to me worth it to condition a dog to swim ... all but the most genetically weak dogs can learn
- i've even copied some of our old navy drills ... like tying towels on the paws to increase drag in the water 
- you might want to try it yourself first so you know how easy it is 
2. pulling around weights .... heavy tires, etc ....once the harness is properly fitted and the dog is conditioned it really builds up both upper body and the driving force in the legs


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Sam
i would add that i'm not sure of what you mean by "young dog" regarding "strength and endurance" ??

young to me means waiting til they grow up and develop proper muscle mass/tone so that the strength and endurance has a foundation to be built on
- for me until that happens it's all play and nutrition with some agility thrown in to get body awareness and balance built up


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

For 18 bucks attaching this to a harness might be worth while more portable than a tire. sorry the pic didnt go through. But it's a basic 40 inch speed chute.







Our Price: $17.99


Product Code: CPRO-A822	
Qty: 





Description 



This 40" speed chute creates resistance as a person runs and is an effective system for increasing speed, endurance, and lower body strength. The harness easily adjusts for a comfortable fit. The chute is made of heavy duty nylon and comes in a convenient carrying bag.




Features
40" chute diameter
Easy adjusting harness
Heavy duty nylon chute


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

What about a weight cart for them to pull like they do in weight pulling contest, its low impact being the dog is ground level, and there pulling and not so much running,jumping,etc..... just a thought Will


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## sam wilks (May 3, 2009)

Some really great ideas guys! Rick, by young I mean 8 months old. Swimming is out of the question till summer but definitely gonna happen!!! Will, where can i see a picture of that speed chute?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

sam wilks said:


> Some really great ideas guys! Rick, by young I mean 8 months old. Swimming is out of the question till summer but definitely gonna happen!!! Will, where can i see a picture of that speed chute?


here are 100's of them...

EBAY...

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fro...13&_nkw=speed+chute&_sacat=See-All-Categories


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Joby beat me to it.....here is where I found one..http://soccer.epicsports.com/prod/12035/champro-strength-speed-training-chutes.html....just ordered one for my dogs figured I would give it a shot. There are thousands on the web to choose from.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Sam heres a site for ya as far as the weight training http://www.pulldoggies.com/, I have thought about this if I didnt have a place to swim the dogs and still do contemplate it from time to time.


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## Mark Horne (Oct 12, 2006)

In sports terms they think backwards; not what will make the dog strong but what muscles need improving for what function.

Bones and Complete Pieces of tripe will build proper jaw strength with a mixture of tug games; if he's biting the tugs and you walk left to right, backwards and forwards you are developing the large muscles, small muscles, tendons and muscle memory.

American Footballers have some of the strongest thighs, what good is this if the kneess are weak.

The parachute attachment might be interesting to develop power in a fast dog but when he hits the helper his jaws/neck will be the weak link.

He's too young for cycling, less is more with a young dog, good diet is everything. For overall health and functional strength, performance and minimizing injuries the key is variety; variety of times, distances, speed, terrain.

Remember this dog needs to be at his mental and physical peak at the age of 4yrs, not next week.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgZ6RLxLEmE 

All the best

Mark


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

sam wilks said:


> Some really great ideas guys! Rick, by young I mean 8 months old. Swimming is out of the question till summer but definitely gonna happen!!! Will, where can i see a picture of that speed chute?


So for an 8 month old, you are going to want to work on skills, not really "conditioning." He can certainly go along with you on hikes and that sort of thing, but lots of repetitive motions (trotting like jogging next to you or a bicycle) or pulling is not what you want to see until he is skeletally mature (assuming he's a shepherd, that's usually 12-14 months). At his own pace is key, but most dogs (especially young dogs) have no sense of self preservation. Get him used to stretching at this stage:

-take a treat at both shoulders and the hip for the lateral flexors and extensor muscles of the spine
-sit to stand or sit pretty exercises for the core and hind legs
-a play bow stretch for the abs and epaxial muscles of the back
-wave "good bye" stretch or "high high five" for the shoulders
-weave once or twice between your legs (not formal full weave poles on agility)

Learning that he has two hind legs is particularly important for later skills. Having him stand on a rubber feed tub and moving his back legs while he rotates around is good. Doing some ladder or cavaletti on the ground work is too.


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## Jessica Kromer (Nov 12, 2009)

For a pup like this, I would be using a ball right now... EggBalls and Peanut Balls are great for dogs and just learning to balance on them builds strength. Eventually having the dog perform behaviors on them (sit-down-sit) can get different parts working. Just play it safe and realize that the constant muscle twitches to balance can get them sore after a while.

Dog Exercise Balls

There is a DVD called "Get on the Ball Two" that shows some exercises to do with the balls.

For the back, I like the sit up and beg position. To stay upright, the back muscles are working a lot there. Very "core"-ish. Once that is easy, try having the dog turn his head to follow a lure back and forth. From there, for a leg work out, have the dog raise up to a standing position on two legs (luring with a yummy snack) and then sink back down to a beg again. Talk about power squats!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

All the above posts will give you all the strength and endurance the dgo needs.
If your looking to "build" muscle on the dog then dog's are no different then humans. Genetics will determine how much you can "bulk up".......without roids.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I agree with you there on genetics, Bob.

My Fila Brasileiro was like a little body builder at 8 months. He was the laziest pup I have ever encountered. He just did what was absolutely necessary and no more. As time advanced he was like "Ben Johnson, the 100m sprinter". Our Briard 14 months older could never catch him on the short spurts he made.

His "sendaways" were legendary. Clods of earth used to fly as he raced towards the "finish".

The Briard was a "long distance runner". 

Our older GSD has terrific muscles. Strangely enough, he was more or less as lazy as the Fila when there was nothing to be gained in using speed. He still is!!

However, in protection work his "pressure" from jumping up to the sleeve is extreme.

The younger shows no muscles but can do nearly the same as the older, apart from "shuffling" backwards.

I therefore think genetics play a big part and although I do not know what breed you have and why you find it necessary to strengthen the dogs muscles, I would recommend the advice of Maren and Mark Horne.

We did have an extremely good exercise in one of our working trials and that is "crawling". The dog is placed in "down" and is induced to crawl forwards.

One good exercise that does not place too much stress on the still young dog is "walking up hill, on a lead" - no "side pees", etc., just walking.


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## mike finn (Jan 5, 2011)

A spring pole works pretty good. Its a rope tied to a garage door spring hung off a tree branch, with something for him to bite and pull on at the end. Set it far enough off the ground so he has to stand off his front feet to get it. Pulling against the spring gives him a real work out. Playing tug also works pretty good.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

*Re: drag chutes*

The ones on Ebay are pretty cheaply made and don't last too long
but @ < $10 you can't complain too much 
I'd go with one of the bigger ones for GSD's or Mals.
I have a couple of chutes that I use with my dogs.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

*Re: drag chutes*



Thomas Barriano said:


> The ones on Ebay are pretty cheaply made and don't last too long
> but @ < $10 you can't complain too much
> I'd go with one of the bigger ones for GSD's or Mals.
> I have a couple of chutes that I use with my dogs.


really Thomas...?????

ALL the ones on Ebay are cheaply made? or just the cheaply made ones?

Tip.... when shopping on Ebay, find BRANDS that you like, and search for those brands...and of course try not to buy Chinese Knockoffs


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

*Re: drag chutes*



Joby Becker said:


> really Thomas...?????
> 
> ALL the ones on Ebay are cheaply made? or just the cheaply made ones?
> 
> Tip.... when shopping on Ebay, find BRANDS that you like, and search for those brands...and of course try not to buy Chinese Knockoffs


Yeah REALLY Joby

The cheaper ones are cheaply made and sometimes the more
expensive ones are cheaply made. Most of the running drag
parachutes are made off shore (in China) the more expensive ones are just are relabeled. Have you ever bought or used any
drag chutes or are you just bored and exercising your typing
fingers. Anyone wanting to try a drag chute without investing a lot of money? Get a couple of cheap ones and see how they work with your dog.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

*Re: drag chutes*



Thomas Barriano said:


> Yeah REALLY Joby
> 
> The cheaper ones are cheaply made and sometimes the more
> expensive ones are cheaply made. Most of the running drag
> ...



I am interested in the chute idea...What brand is NOT a cheaply made one, that costs more money? any recommendations?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

*Re: drag chutes*



Joby Becker said:


> I am interested in the chute idea...What brand is NOT a cheaply made one, that costs more money? any recommendations?



There are no different brands there are just different labels attached to the same chutes probably made at the same factory 
Buy a couple of the $10 shipping included ones and see how they work. They usually tear where the netting is attached to the chute itself. If the wife/girl friend/yourself are handy with a sewing machine? It's a quick and easy repair.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

*Re: drag chutes*



Thomas Barriano said:


> There are no different brands there are just different labels attached to the same chutes probably made at the same factory
> Buy a couple of the $10 shipping included ones and see how they work. They usually tear where the netting is attached to the chute itself. If the wife/girl friend/yourself are handy with a sewing machine? It's a quick and easy repair.


I am much handier with a sewing machine than my GF....

I do not need to use a chute to cry BS... So you are actually saying that of all the chutes made, there are NO different brands, and that ALL chutes are probably made at the same factory...I cannot believe this....sorry...

Pretty much any brand of anything comes up for sale on Ebay..
To say EVERY one on there is cheaply made is a flat out lie. You have NOT owned every type of chute for sale on Ebay, and they are not all UNDER $10.00....

I just checked out reviews of running chutes, and found several of the top rated brands on Ebay....

Just pointing out a preposterous statement, directed towards something I posted....

That would be like saying ALL tents for sale on ebay are cheaply made, regardless of the manufacturer or price... or all leashes for sale are cheaply made, or all collars are cheaply made, or all camera lenses are cheaply made...even the ones that cost 30,000 or more....total BS...

yeah, I agree... if you buy a 20.00 tent, or a 15.00 camera lense, a 3.00 leash, and a 3.00 collar...the quality will probably be low....


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

*Re: drag chutes*



Joby Becker said:


> I am much handier with a sewing machine than my GF....
> 
> I do not need to use a chute to cry BS... So you are actually saying that of all the chutes made, there are NO different brands, and that ALL chutes are probably made at the same factory...I cannot believe this....sorry...
> 
> ...


What ever you say Joby.

I've bought several parachutes at various prices and don't see
a lot of difference between them. However everyone is free to
go with your research vs my experience.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

*Re: drag chutes*



Thomas Barriano said:


> What ever you say Joby.
> 
> I've bought several parachutes at various prices and don't see
> a lot of difference between them.


Yeah, that's probably true. Till you jump out of a plane to really see for yourself, then jest maybe you'd notice the differences between some of the parachutes.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

*Re: drag chutes*



Nicole Stark said:


> Yeah, that's probably true. Till you jump out of a plane to really see for yourself, then jest maybe you'd notice the differences between some of the parachutes.


There's a difference between a running/drag parachute for exercising a dog and one for jumping out of a plane. Besides I see no reason for jumping out of a perfectly good airplane. So I'll never have a chance to compare.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

*Re: drag chutes*



Thomas Barriano said:


> There's a difference between a running/drag parachute for exercising a dog and one for jumping out of a plane. Besides I see no reason for jumping out of a perfectly good airplane. So I'll never have a chance to compare.



If you got a cheap one for jumping out of a plane you wouldn't be able to tell anyone about it.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

*Re: drag chutes*



Thomas Barriano said:


> There's a difference between a running/drag parachute for exercising a dog and one for jumping out of a plane.


Er, gee Thomas ya think?


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

The drag parachute is interesting but for endurance work why not run in loose sand? Unless you don't live near a beach...


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

THe carpet mill I bought A few months ago...has turnrf my female into a brick shit house. I reccommend one of those


Here's a free idea. Find a hill....throw a ball up it.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

*Re: drag chutes*



Nicole Stark said:


> Er, gee Thomas ya think?


Nicole

I don't know. I think there's a difference between a running parachute and one for jumping out of planes. I'll send you one of my running/drag chutes for free if you promise to jump out of a plane with it and report back what you find out?


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

Mark Horne said:


> In sports terms they think backwards; not what will make the dog strong but what muscles need improving for what function.
> 
> Bones and Complete Pieces of tripe will build proper jaw strength with a mixture of tug games; if he's biting the tugs and you walk left to right, backwards and forwards you are developing the large muscles, small muscles, tendons and muscle memory.
> 
> ...



My thoughts exactly. You must be thoughtful about the ultimate goal (sport/competition, looks, work [type], overall strength and ability, etc.). You must also be especially mindful of such a young dog and what you engage him in as he is growing and developing. I learned this the hard way. My first working dog I did some forms of conditioning that affected her bones, which is evident in her x-rays. I would not have known w/o the x-rays because these things don't effect her movement or her agility or her strength. It was a lesson learned and I have been advised not to engage my dogs in certain kinds of conditioning work until at least 18 months of age. Good luck.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

I love the myth of how if a young dog physically engages his body it will screw him up..wives tale. Exercise is good. Stagnation is no good. 

Good forbid our dogs run and hop.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

James Downey said:


> I love the myth of how if a young dog physically engages his body it will screw him up..wives tale. Exercise is good. Stagnation is no good.
> 
> Good forbid our dogs run and hop.


Exercise is good but exagerrating is very bad and yes it will screw him up if you do too much at a young age.
A young dog has to move (play, run, hike) but never be forced to do it.
Nothing wrong with swimming or running as long as the dog can take a rest whenever he likes.
Real exercise starts when he is about 14 months (malinois) or even later with a very big dog.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Martine Loots said:


> Exercise is good but exagerrating is very bad and yes it will screw him up if you do too much at a young age.
> A young dog has to move (play, run, hike) but never be forced to do it.
> Nothing wrong with swimming or running as long as the dog can take a rest whenever he likes.
> Real exercise starts when he is about 14 months (malinois) or even later with a very big dog.


 I agree and then you have those folks who want their money back IF the dog gets bad hips and elbows. When the BIG excercise issue comes worth, it's a different case!

Never had to deal with it from any of my puppy people. Odd, lots of exercise and fat puppies doesn't make for a good combination in my book!


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

I think that overuse injuries are real. I also think that probably inproper movement of the body is more of a factor injury with young dogs than anything else. jumping is not the problem for a young dog. It's they do not know how to land. The body is made to move.

There is a progression in life. Learning to crawl, walk, get up off the floor, jump....all these things have to be learned. As we grow older the reverse happens...We can no longer jump, get off the floor, walk, crawl.

but there are massive benefits to perodic exertation passed the bodies comfort level. Too much to soon is not the problem. It's too much passed the dogs level of ability or too much to often.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Overuse in an adult is different than overuse in a young animal (or person for that matter). We don't send third graders (the equivalent of an 8 month old pup) into the weight room for "strength training" and certainly not to exert them past their comfort level. Why do the equivalent for a pup, particularly when they can't tell us if something is uncomfortable?

I don't think anyone is advocating putting a pup in a crate and never letting it do anything like a veal calf. But there's so many important lower impact foundational things for a pup to learn about their body. They have the rest of their lives to do the big jumping and such. No reason to push them.


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

James Downey said:


> I think that overuse injuries are real. I also think that probably inproper movement of the body is more of a factor injury with young dogs than anything else. jumping is not the problem for a young dog. It's they do not know how to land. The body is made to move.
> 
> There is a progression in life. Learning to crawl, walk, get up off the floor, jump....all these things have to be learned. As we grow older the reverse happens...We can no longer jump, get off the floor, walk, crawl.
> 
> but there are massive benefits to perodic exertation passed the bodies comfort level. Too much to soon is not the problem. It's too much passed the dogs level of ability or too much to often.


"Too much too soon" can definitely be a problem! You say so in the first line of your response. "I think that overuse injuries are real." If the body is not mature enough for the "periodic exertion past the body's comfort level," then the probability of injury as a result, is bound to occur. I wasn't advocating confining the animal until its mature enough for work or exercise or "hopping and playing." I was just advising that the OP be mindful of what work/exercise/conditioning he decides to engage the pup in at such a young age.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Overuse in an adult is different than overuse in a young animal (or person for that matter). We don't send third graders (the equivalent of an 8 month old pup) into the weight room for "strength training" and certainly not to exert them past their comfort level. Why do the equivalent for a pup, particularly when they can't tell us if something is uncomfortable?
> 
> I don't think anyone is advocating putting a pup in a crate and never letting it do anything like a veal calf. But there's so many important lower impact foundational things for a pup to learn about their body. They have the rest of their lives to do the big jumping and such. No reason to push them.


Hey kids don't sweat. It's bad for you! You want fries with those diabetes. Our Nation has the fattest Children on Earth. Trust me, not sending our third graders to the gym...it's a problem. Not preventive medicine. 

The reason a puppy goes from crawling to walking is because the pup stresses his little body out. The muscle breaks down and rebuilds. And Strength does not increase unless there is overload. So whether you like it or not. Your dog at the tender age of three weeks has overloaded his muscles passed the point of comfort. the brain, through stimulated nerve endings learns how to talk to the muscles better.Thus creating better functional movement. 

I will tell you why you should not baby your little puppy, afraid that he will get a boo, boo. Because the body does this thing...it's called adaptation. But it only adapts if it encounters stress beyond it's normal capacity. Overuse injuries occur for the exact same reasons in Adults as they do children. First, The body does not have enought time recover from the last time it was stressed....not allowing for what....Oh! Adaptation. 

but the flip side is....whatever is not needed is lost. So, if the dog has more strength than it never uses. The body will not support it. The opposite happens. You get less function.

Anyone can look at a puppy and see, oh he's starting to pant a little, he's doing it more...his sides are heaving. One more, throw of the ball. Now we should stop. So we can tell when they are getting tired. I am not sure what you mean they cannot talk to us. If your congnitively delayed, I guess you might miss the signs that he's getting tired. 

Look, what a puppy needs is not different in type from it's parents. It needs ( I use the word need...for lack of a better term.) the basic functional movements. I am not sure exactly what they all are for a dog: but a few of them are.-- get up, lay down, walk, run, jump, stop running or walking...those sorts of things. The only thing they need that's different from an older dog is intensity and duration. Because it does not take as much to overload them.

Overloading muscles, balanced with the right amount of rest, and good nutrition...has so many more benefits than keeping them "comfortable"....That the argument is so idiotic I do not know how it plagued dogdom. EXERCISE IS GOOD! And stopping at the exact point before you feel any physical stress...is worth less. Welll....no it's not. It's what you should be doing on your off days. This is called active rest. It actually speeds up the heeling process. 

The ability of a puppy is the limiting factor. A puppy obviously cannot jump and land properly off things as high a grown dog can...but saying that dog should not jump at all...It's a bunch of bs. 

So if you got fat little kids... Your not doing them any favors by keeping them "comfortable".


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

James, you're presenting a false dichotomy. As I said before, I know of no one saying to never do anything with your pup. You even said it yourself:



> There is a progression in life. Learning to crawl, walk, get up off the floor, jump....all these things have to be learned. As we grow older the reverse happens...We can no longer jump, get off the floor, walk, crawl.


So if it all doesn't matter...why weren't you sent into the weight room in third grade PE class to work on squats and hang cleans? How about full contact football or rugby? I did a style of taekwondo for about 5 years in college and grad school and occasionally taught kids as young as five. I loved teaching the kids. You teach them a basic skill set first when they are young so they don't hurt themselves and they are built up from there. Teaching the basic moves, self discipline, balance, and body awareness is much more important at that age than throwing them in to spar or grapple. When they start reaching their teens, then you can start being more serious with their skills, both physically and mentally. 

Same thing as pups. There are so many good foundational skills they can learn as youngsters. I love a good serious conditioning program for adult dogs because I love canine sports medicine. I also love creative problem solving to figure out why a performance or working dog is having issues or to work on improvement for maximum performance. But the serious conditioning can definitely wait.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

James Downey said:


> I will tell you why you should not baby your little puppy, afraid that he will get a boo, boo.
> 
> but the flip side is....whatever is not needed is lost. So, if the dog has more strength than it never uses. The body will not support it. The opposite happens. You get less function.


All our adult dogs are hard core athletes and none of them has been forced to heavy physical strength training before their body was ready for it.

The opposite I witnessed more often: dogs with physical problems in their later sport career because of too heavy training as a young dog.


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## Ang Cangiano (Mar 2, 2007)

I started competitive swimming when I was 8yrs old. We did dryland training that included sprint and interval runs, plyometrics, and we even hit the weights, all with no ill effects except for some sore muscles. 

When I got into sleddog racing, the first race I ran, the team consisted of two dogs that were ten months old at the time, placed second in a four mile sprint and both continued to race and train well into their teens.

Well developed muscles prevent injury. Coordination gained from agility exercises as a puppy prevent injury. I'm more concerned about a young pup/young dog continuously hitting the end of a stake-out line while watching protection and messing up their neck/spine than I am with some conditioning exercises started early in life. 

Everything in moderation, don't overdo it (with any age dog) watch the dog for signs of when to stop, your dog will let you know what is too much as long as you listen, each is an individual with individual limits.

Ang


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## Mark Horne (Oct 12, 2006)

Whilst I’m in the camp of less is more, there has been recent evidence from the horse racing world that young horses exposed to hard training (carefully planned) do develop better bodies to those which have a sedate lifestyle and begin training when the bodies stops growing. It is about the body being forced to adapt to load. However that refers to the big money of horses, and people tend to overdo it with their young dogs.

The most efficient way to stagnate development, performance and introduce injury is to do the same exercises at the same tempo, and frequency.
An example would be these donuts that occasionally post who run 5 miles every single day with their dogs.

Olympic Athletes, professional football players etc. use a principle known as PERIODISATION. Each session falls into the easy, medium, hard category. High tempo for short periods, slow tempo for long periods, this cycles through the week, month or year. The most import session is always the easy one as the body is preparing to over compensate from the previous progressive workouts, and the load doesn’t come; this when you hear athletes talking about peaking; think back to those very occasional days you get out of bed with boundless energy.

Lance Armstrong, the cyclist has a Vo2 Max of 85, a good working GSD should be over 200, with competition sledding dogs at 240.

In practical terms today I tabbed out a couple of hours across the hills with the dogs, tomorrow I’ll do 2 x 30mins intense sessions with ball, the day after may 45mins fast road walk, with a 20mins tug/training session later that day, swim as and when we can. Variety of terrain, speeds, muscle groups, plenty of rest, green tripe/chicken wings. Personally I won’t throw a ball for at least 10mins so the dog gets warmed up.
Its 40% exercise, 60% rest and nutrition.

http://www.caninesports.com/

Mark


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## Mark Horne (Oct 12, 2006)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ve8PiLk2T8w

This is a 10mins video on fitness made by some grown ups.

Mark


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Mark Horne said:


> Whilst I’m in the camp of less is more, there has been recent evidence from the horse racing world that young horses exposed to hard training (carefully planned) do develop better bodies to those which have a sedate lifestyle and begin training when the bodies stops growing. It is about the body being forced to adapt to load. However that refers to the big money of horses, and people tend to overdo it with their young dogs.


While I'm not an equine vet, I had the feeling it was the opposite. So according to my large animal anatomy textbook, the distal physis of the distal radius/ulna, tibia, and femur don't even close until they about 42 months of age (it's about 12 months in most large breed dogs for the same bones). So these two and three year old colts and fillies racing at high speeds is pretty crazy and probably not surprising why you have catastrophic injuries like Barbaro and Eight Belles from very hard training and racing. 

Again, I don't believe it to be an all or nothing prospect of not having the pup (or foal or young human) do nothing versus way extreme in the other direction either.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> James, you're presenting a false dichotomy. As I said before, I know of no one saying to never do anything with your pup. You even said it yourself:
> 
> So if it all doesn't matter...why weren't you sent into the weight room in third grade PE class to work on squats and hang cleans? How about full contact football or rugby? I did a style of taekwondo for about 5 years in college and grad school and occasionally taught kids as young as five. I loved teaching the kids. You teach them a basic skill set first when they are young so they don't hurt themselves and they are built up from there. Teaching the basic moves, self discipline, balance, and body awareness is much more important at that age than throwing them in to spar or grapple. When they start reaching their teens, then you can start being more serious with their skills, both physically and mentally.
> 
> Same thing as pups. There are so many good foundational skills they can learn as youngsters. I love a good serious conditioning program for adult dogs because I love canine sports medicine. I also love creative problem solving to figure out why a performance or working dog is having issues or to work on improvement for maximum performance. But the serious conditioning can definitely wait.


 
Okay so you take junior for walks and slow trots around the farm. 


I will take my dog for intense fast runs up the local sled hill. 

Maren bell...I get it your a Vet. 

The benefits of intense exercise for childre is now wildly accepted amongst the fitness and health community. I live with a very educated and recongized personal trainer/athletetic trainer/ functional movement specialist....I myself have recieved some great schooling from the military on new physical training. It's not like I am making this up. 

It's always hard to change traditional thought. 

There is substantial proof that conditioning the body prevents more injury than it causes. In fact an unconditioned body is like more likely to get injured.

And also, I agree we should wait till the kids are 4 times as heavy and poweful...then we should teach them how to tackle each other and kick each other in the face... That makes sense. The provides for lots of time to learn how to do the sport with really low risk for actually being able to hurt each other. 

I would rather my kid learn the skills when his opponet is small and unable to do real damage. That seems like a good time to practise. Same goes for dogs. Lets wait till they are 85 lbs to practise and learn how to jump, catch something in the air... I bet a large animal, with immense ability in his body, with low skill has less chance of hurting himself, than a dog whom his smaller, not as fast and powerful. 

You can argue all day long on this one. It's 1970's science.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

James Downey said:


> Okay so you take junior for walks and slow trots around the farm.
> 
> 
> I will take my dog for intense fast runs up the local sled hill.


Uh...yeah, I do too. I even said that the first page of this thread. And it improved his extreme vertical jump height by nearly a foot. But I don't when he's 8 months old. 



> The benefits of intense exercise for childre is now wildly accepted amongst the fitness and health community. I live with a very educated and recongized personal trainer/athletetic trainer/ functional movement specialist....I myself have recieved some great schooling from the military on new physical training. It's not like I am making this up.
> 
> It's always hard to change traditional thought.


Okay, I am all ears. Since it's "wildly accepted" (did you mean widely?), please cite me some good peer reviewed literature on *intense* exercise for children from your personal trainer specialist. And by intense, I don't mean getting the kids to do stuff like president's physical fitness challenge and the like (learning good form for pushups, sit ups, pull ups, which is all good) or pretty standard kid's team activities like soccer. Got no problem with that. I have in mind physical activity that "traditionally" would wait until, say, high school at the earliest: weight lifting, more serious long distance endurance/cross country running, full contact sports (full contact football, hockey, rugby, etc) and so on.



> There is substantial proof that conditioning the body prevents more injury than it causes. In fact an unconditioned body is like more likely to get injured.
> 
> And also, I agree we should wait till the kids are 4 times as heavy and poweful...then we should teach them how to tackle each other and kick each other in the face... That makes sense. The provides for lots of time to learn how to do the sport with really low risk for actually being able to hurt each other.
> 
> I would rather my kid learn the skills when his opponet is small and unable to do real damage. That seems like a good time to practise. Same goes for dogs. Lets wait till they are 85 lbs to practise and learn how to jump, catch something in the air... I bet a large animal, with immense ability in his body, with low skill has less chance of hurting himself, than a dog whom his smaller, not as fast and powerful.


Yeah, you're not listening, so this will likely be my last response to you, James. You are still assuming I have done* nothing* with that 85 lbs dog (not that I really want a dog that big, my 65 lbs guy is just fine). :roll: Not true at all. FOUNDATION is everything in any sport. My dog is pretty competitive at extreme vertical dock diving, so yes, I taught him how to jump, that he's got back legs, and spatial awareness. But I don't want a top gun level extreme vertical dog at 8 months, even if he could at that age (he is at that level now at 4 years old). What's the point? To stroke my ego to his possible detriment? That's no better than those psycho parents who practically disown their kids if they don't win the state tournament. From my perspective, people tend to do too much of the wrong thing when pups are young ("strength" training) and too little of the right thing when dogs are older (stretching, conditioning).


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> FOUNDATION is everything in any sport.


at what age does the foundation that is EVERYTHING, have to occur?
just curious...not a sport guy...


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Maren Bell...You keep up the good work. Like I said I am not going to argue with you. You train your dog your way...I'll train mine my way. And we both we will be better for it.

If you really want to know about exercise...you'll go find the answers. But I have the feeling you wanted documentation, Not for your knowledge on exercise and nutrition...You want to prove me wrong.

Well here's your wish come true. I can't produce any papers supported by my peers.

You like this though... We learned this all from a real doctor in Sports MED.


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## Ang Cangiano (Mar 2, 2007)

If you really want to learn about young children and weight lifting here's a good article to start your research with, even though it is not a research/scientific article itself, it will point you in the right direction.

http://www.livestrong.com/article/428230-what-are-weightlifting-limits-for-children/

Ang


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## Gina Pasieka (Apr 25, 2010)

Wow....you pulled out the "real doctor" card...that never comes up . I do agree that until growth plates close there is some concern regarding hard repetitive exercise. Has everyone seen a dog with legs that are curved...this occurs due to trauma of the distal growthplate on the ulna resulting in premature closure. More common in certain breeds for sure...but can happen to anyone. I do avoid significant obstacle jumping and forced running (ie. jogging young dogs). Though I have run my dog on a slat mill since he was 6-7 months old when there is inclement weather. I have seen cases of puppies being hurt...but I don't think anyone can come with a group study that says a "certain" amount of exercise resulted in musculoskeletal injuries. This would require a life long study with two similiar groups starting as puppies...those that had mild to moderate exercise vs. those that were worked harder at a younger age and then monitor for skeletal changes over time. Hey Maren...better get busy...lol!


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> at what age does the foundation that is EVERYTHING, have to occur?
> just curious...not a sport guy...


It's a continual process from exposing young pups to different surfaces and textures to more formal conditioning programs as adults.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Gina Pasieka said:


> Wow....you pulled out the "real doctor" card...that never comes up . I do agree that until growth plates close there is some concern regarding hard repetitive exercise. Has everyone seen a dog with legs that are curved...this occurs due to trauma of the distal growthplate on the ulna resulting in premature closure. More common in certain breeds for sure...but can happen to anyone. I do avoid significant obstacle jumping and forced running (ie. jogging young dogs). Though I have run my dog on a slat mill since he was 6-7 months old when there is inclement weather. I have seen cases of puppies being hurt...but I don't think anyone can come with a group study that says a "certain" amount of exercise resulted in musculoskeletal injuries. This would require a life long study with two similiar groups starting as puppies...those that had mild to moderate exercise vs. those that were worked harder at a younger age and then monitor for skeletal changes over time. Hey Maren...better get busy...lol!


Well, as we know, real doctors treat more than one species. :twisted: I'll fit in all those studies after I do some raw/natural food studies that people want me to do. ;-) Just need some funding... :-k

If James likes expert opinions and not published studies, I went to several talks by Dr. Chris Zink at the AVMA conference this year (who everyone has heard of if they know anything about canine sports medicine). The same question came up and she's actually even more conservative than I am. She doesn't recommend starting formal jump or weaves training for agility until about 18-24 months, depending on the dog. I spoke with her afterwards and got some interesting perspectives from her. I think her point was basically that the risk doesn't outweigh the benefit, even though it's very tempting working your prospect. I'd like to see more people doing more formal conditioning, stretching, and so on with older athletes to keep them doing their best for longer.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I went to several talks by Dr. Chris Zink at the AVMA conference this year (who everyone has heard of if they know anything about canine sports medicine). The same question came up and she's actually even more conservative than I am. She doesn't recommend starting formal jump or weaves training for agility until about 18-24 months, depending on the dog. I spoke with her afterwards and got some interesting perspectives from her. I think her point was basically that the risk doesn't outweigh the benefit, even though it's very tempting working your prospect. I'd like to see more people doing more formal conditioning, stretching, and so on with older athletes to keep them doing their best for longer.


She's working on the first dog sports medicine and rehab textbook, right?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

I know from her articles that she believes (like all the canine sports med experts I've read) that serious conditioning exercises shouldn't be put in place before growth plates have closed.

I don't much give a poop about "proving anyone wrong" on this, but would really like to see links to someone with some kind of pertinent degree who says otherwise. I want to know! 



These make sense to me:
_I was just advising that the OP be mindful of what work/exercise/conditioning he decides to engage the pup in at such a young age.
_
_All our adult dogs are hard core athletes and none of them has been forced to heavy physical strength training before their body was ready for it._

No one is saying "no exercise until plates close"!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

_"I'd like to see more people doing more formal conditioning, stretching, and so on with older athletes to keep them doing their best for longer."_


I started researching this topic when I started working more with adult and senior dogs. It probably belongs in a new thread, but it's a great topic.


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

I was pushed hard from a young age. It helped me accomplish a lot in sports (and in the military), even at a professional level.
I was also a personal trainer at a World's Gym when I was 16, so I knew (know) proper form, proper lifting technique. The damage done to my shoulders baffle surgeons, as I needed total shoulder replacements (at 25), both knees shot, neck is wrecked, and I'm a full foot shorter than my brothers who, incidentally, did not compete in any sport, or lift any weights. BUT, I was untouchable for a little while there, and my two older brothers feared me.


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## Gina Pasieka (Apr 25, 2010)

I recently saw Chris Zink with my dog. She showed me some core building exercises to help with his movement. Yep...you got it right...crunches for dogs...:-o


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Gina Pasieka said:


> I recently saw Chris Zink with my dog. She showed me some core building exercises to help with his movement. Yep...you got it right...crunches for dogs...:-o


:-D

Sounds pretty cool, actually. I've read a little about core exercises (the one I saw a video of was a crawling exercise); they make sense to me. Core muscles are a major factor in balance and in joint alignment, right?


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

There's a BIG difference in the physical structure of dogs and humans. As a former wrestling coach, I can tell you that many coaches STILL think it's OK for young kids to cut *major* weight! What a joke, they can't pay attention in class, get sick, pass out and all in the name of wrestling!!!

I don't let any of my puppies get fat, run for long distances, jump from heights, or do big trime training. It boils down to common sense and moderation in all that you do. Just my spin.........


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

Howard Gaines III said:


> It boils down to common sense...


A rare quality these days


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Well, as we know, real doctors treat more than one species. :twisted: I'll fit in all those studies after I do some raw/natural food studies that people want me to do. ;-) Just need some funding... :-k
> 
> If James likes expert opinions and not published studies, I went to several talks by Dr. Chris Zink at the AVMA conference this year (who everyone has heard of if they know anything about canine sports medicine). The same question came up and she's actually even more conservative than I am. She doesn't recommend starting formal jump or weaves training for agility until about 18-24 months, depending on the dog. I spoke with her afterwards and got some interesting perspectives from her. I think her point was basically that the risk doesn't outweigh the benefit, even though it's very tempting working your prospect. I'd like to see more people doing more formal conditioning, stretching, and so on with older athletes to keep them doing their best for longer.


Do you have photos of yourself with Dr. Chris at the Talk....Maybe audio, Video would actually be the best.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

James Downey said:


> Do you have photos of yourself with Dr. Chris at the Talk....


?

I don't understand what this would provide.

I could link to some of her excerpts posted online.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> ... I could link to some of her excerpts posted online.


http://www.caninesports.com/fitness.html

This has been posted here before:
http://www.caninesports.com/SpayNeuter.html

http://www.caninesports.com/excerpts.html

http://www.vetsportsmedicine.com/about/staff_czink.html

I've read her "Puppy Training Rules of Thumb," but now can't find it except indirectly (quoted by others). I'll keep trying. It's succinct and straightforward.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> ... I don't let any of my puppies get fat ...


One of Zink's major interests, in fact. 

http://www.caninesports.com/fatdogs.html


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> ?
> 
> I don't understand what this would provide.
> 
> I could link to some of her excerpts posted online.


 
It would provide proof....same thing she was asking me for. I took a class, and asked my wife for her thoughts...She wants me to provide studies. I do not have studies. There is information right now that is ground breaking for human physical fitness...lots of old myths are being dispelled at the moment. I am sure that veterniary medicine and canine sports science does not have nearly the resources that human athletics invest in research. 

But I am not so sure Maren Bell wants to try even consider this possiblity....She just wants to be right.

Like her vet friend saying jumping and dashing should wait till the dog is 18-24 months old. I just watched my 10 month old pups, jump and dash while playing with each other. I am sure thier bones will be just fine.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

James Downey said:


> It would provide proof....same thing she was asking me for. I took a class, and asked my wife for her thoughts...She wants me to provide studies. I do not have studies. There is information right now that is ground breaking for human physical fitness...lots of old myths are being dispelled at the moment. I am sure that veterniary medicine and canine sports science does not have nearly the resources that human athletics invest in research.
> 
> But I am not so sure Maren Bell wants to try even consider this possiblity....She just wants to be right.
> 
> Like her vet friend saying jumping and dashing should wait till the dog is 18-24 months old. I just watched my 10 month old pups, jump and dash while playing with each other. I am sure thier bones will be just fine.


I would like to be right too. But I want to hear/read new stuff more than I want to be right. 

Even if it's about humans, I'd like to read about old physical fitness myths being dispelled.


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

Wow. Yeah, me too. I'd like to hear about the dispelled myths. No studies, huh? So then where did the information of these dispelled myths come from? We'd just like to be exposed to what you've read and/or studied and where you've read it. What are the sources of this information, so that we too can be enlightened about what was old myth and what is now new truth. If you could provide us with this we can perhaps add to our current training/conditioning programs. Please post. Thanks in advance.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> .... Even if it's about humans, I'd like to read about old physical fitness myths being dispelled.


No sarcasm here. 

I would like to be pointed to a book, article, blog, or anything.

I like reading new stuff, whether I end up using the info/opinions or not.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

I took a class, It was called... Elite Athelete operation training. It was aimed at reducing injuries in Military men and women. specifically lifers in highly physical demanding jobs. At first it was to teach the men and women training the members. Originally it was called train the trainer. Then they had a great idea and just started enrolling the members in the positions. There was a study that developed the class. I do not have access to it. It was led by LCDR Richard Shumay M.D. He was stationed at the USCG Academy. They were having high incidents of injury in the cadets in the latter 2 years of school. The schools old program, the one injuring the students was based on the old military idea of...make em' hurt. So long runs, lots of calesthenics...of long enduring workouts. His was given 6 years to complete his study. He had access to all Boot camps, academies, and special operation physical fitness programs. He first noted the incidents of injury. Most were overuse, or poor execution of exercise injuries... some more severe. like broken hips, femurs, forearms...career ending stuff. Then he studied the effectiveness of the current programs. He then went and compared the training to highly trained athletes in various sports. The nebraska football team was one of the leaders in reduced injury and maxium gains in athletes. So much so, that the L.E. training center in Savana, GA ( I believe it's there) has an exact replica of thier gym. He found that what he calls slow and long workouts...workouts at a moderate level for extended periods of time. Ones that keep the body in a aerobic state for a period of more than twenty minutes. done regularly are the worst for injury with the least amount of gain. Then workouts over twenty minutes, mixed with anaerobic and aerobic training are second. Mind this is done a regular basis. The best were workouts kept shorter than twenty minutes, that worked in whats called the ATP-Creatine system. So definition time. 


from Wikipedia.

*ATP-PC system (Phosphogen system)* - This system is used only for very short durations of up to 10 seconds. The ATP-PC system neither uses oxygen nor produces lactic acid if oxygen is unavailable and is thus said to be alactic anaerobic. This is the primary system behind very short, powerful movements like a golf swing, a 100 m sprint or powerlifting.

*Anaerobic system (Lactic Acid system)* - Predominates in supplying energy for exercises lasting less than 2 minutes. Also known as the Glycolytic System. An example of an activity of the intensity and duration that this system works under would be a 400 m sprint.

*Aerobic system* - This is the long duration energy system. By 5 minutes of exercise the O2 system is clearly the dominant system. In a 1 km run, this system is already providing approximately half the energy; in a marathon run it provides 98% or more.[1]
Now, the kicker is...working in the ATP energy system, works the others. You get more benefit in intense exercise...while reducing risk of injury. You get more bang for your buck. 

This study was so beneficial to the Coast Guard. That the AF has changed some it's PJ training. The Seals have incorporate programs as have the Marines. 

The program right now most popular is Crossfit. Which has almost become a religion. 

The old Ideas of working out. were....either you were muscle guy...lift....eat as much as possible. for months, then trim. Repeat. Then there was the middle of the road. Lift, then do cardio daily. But eat like a horse. Then there were the endurance guys....you've seen em at the gym hogging the mills for an hour or more. No mind you this is just fitness...not atheletics. But for some reason, there has not been bridge between athletetic training and fitness till now. The military...went the fitness road. Not the Athletetic road for years. 

What also the class taught was; if wanna get better at something...you have to do that. So if wanna get better a boxing, you need to box. Supplementry weight lifting was almost so ineffectual...it was deemed useless. So...Doing pushups...will only help you get better at pushups. Not make you be able to carry a ruck sack thirty clicks through the jungle. The one exception was core stability training. Not core strength...which is what sit ups are but core stability. Like doing bridges, and taking a bad stretching it out and using your core to stabilize it. Core stability was the number one weakness in all the programs. Every movement that is multi jointed starts in the core. This was another problem with traditional weight lifting. It isolates the muscle being worked. So, instead Olympic lifting is what he recommended. Also mind you this class was focused on making your body more useful to you. not lean, trim and muscular. 

So an old idea was. That the body cannot build strength and endurance at the same time. which is true to a point. But for an athlete the question is, how much strength is really needed. And how much endurance. What he found is that most atheletes focus on one or the other...because that's what is comfortable for them. Like me, I can run. So, I naturally would rather do that. But the workouts prescribed for me not that. But for the body to be useful, the athlete needs only so much strength to preform his tasks at the optimal level. The rest is a waste. Especially if his technique cannot make use of it. 

This was another thing he talked about. This is the one area you should never exhaust your self in. Say a boxer throwing punches. He wants to have good punches. Exhausting himself, throwing punches is stupid. The only thing he can do now, is just try to keep going, and what goes first his technique. Now from being exhausted...he will throw his punches incorrectly. and his muscle memory will remember this. But if he only throws good punches and when starts to get to that point where his stamina is dimishing and stops, and goes does something that is unrelated but works those muscles like med ball throws against a wall. When he is tired in a fight...this is the one time he will throw punches exhausted he will execute them better.

And to bring it all around. The periodization method this is where you break your training up into time blocks, like 4 week blocks. The first 4 weeks is the atrophy stage. (and you can look up on your on what the differences are in stages) This is where you build muscle...not strength or power...just actual mass. Then the next4, is strength. make the muscle strong. then the next 4 is power make the muscle explosive and quick. and the next 4 are function. this where take the new muscle and teach to preform a utilitarian task. During each phase the focus will be either atophy, strength, power, function....but you will still incoroprate the other 3 you are not focusing on....but they will be subordinate.

The crossfit jounral has to have thousands of articles written on the indeas.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Another thing found...is the body gains function as we grow older....then peaks, the it declines. While we are young and graining ability it is important to try and get the most out of this time. Because once we peak. No matter what, the only thing we can do is try and slow the declining process. I myself am trying to not have to buy a necklace with a button on it in cased I have fallen and can't get up. problems in old people are not the cause of too much exercise, it was the lack of it. 


This is interesting


http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/10/041006082858.htm

I know maren bell is going to hit the weight lifting thing. I would like to state that intense exercise does not have to include "serious weight lifting" which I imagine they mean like power lifting, and body building. But I imagine that functional lifing...What that means is lifting weight that is relative a task you may preform daily. Like I do not life extremely heavy weight. I lift the weight close to that of a human body...a dewater pump....those sorts of things. These are tasks I may do. I do not see me needing to squat 400 lbs. but squating 190, a bunch of times is defintly relative. But the term serious weight lifting is kind of vague....because picking things up and putting them down is a daily task. 

But can you imagine that...jumping at a young age, helps the body adapt to bearing a load. I am telling you folks. Jumping is not the devil. and here is a way to tell if your dog is jumpiing to high. Watch them do a jump. They should be able to land with same amount of flexation in the joint as they jumped with. An example would be if you were to jump on to a box. then jump off. your landing should look indentical as your jump did just in reverse. 

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/05/100503111744.htm


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

I only choose those two articles because I thought they applied. But I prayed to the holy google. I typed in "intense exercise childern." 

It benefited everything from, the risk of diabetes, and heart disease....to reducing the chance of Alcoholism and the effects of ADHD. Kids engaged in Intense exercise got better grades and were more obedient to thier parents, had better social skills....digested food more efficently...I mean, those risks must be pretty frigging intense to outweigh the bennies.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

just to add on jumping

if the dog has to overcompensate for the landing, by collapsing it's body or cannot "stick" the landing so to speak It's too high. The dogs muscles are not strong enough to stabilize it's body on landing....keeping them from jumping at all....That will help them be strong enough when they are 2 years old to stick it. Remember in order to teach a muscle to do something...You have to do that movement. So if you have a dog, that is 2 and has never jumped. The muscles are going to be ill equiped to handle the task. If the dog is getting injured. The problem is not the dogs age, the problem lies in the ability of the dog. You do not prevent injury by waiting...the dog is going to get stronger, and be able to jump higher and he is going to have more weight to compensate for upon landing.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

James, I don't have audio or video of Dr. Chris Zink, or an autographed picture for that matter. It's a professional symposium, not Comic Con. 



James Downey said:


> I took a class, It was called... Elite Athelete operation training. It was aimed at reducing injuries in Military men and women. specifically lifers in highly physical demanding jobs. At first it was to teach the men and women training the members. Originally it was called train the trainer. Then they had a great idea and just started enrolling the members in the positions. There was a study that developed the class. I do not have access to it. It was led by LCDR Richard Shumay M.D. He was stationed at the USCG Academy. They were having high incidents of injury in the cadets in the latter 2 years of school. The schools old program, the one injuring the students was based on the old military idea of...make em' hurt. So long runs, lots of calesthenics...of long enduring workouts. His was given 6 years to complete his study. He had access to all Boot camps, academies, and special operation physical fitness programs. He first noted the incidents of injury. Most were overuse, or poor execution of exercise injuries... some more severe. like broken hips, femurs, forearms...career ending stuff. Then he studied the effectiveness of the current programs. He then went and compared the training to highly trained athletes in various sports. The nebraska football team was one of the leaders in reduced injury and maxium gains in athletes. So much so, that the L.E. training center in Savana, GA ( I believe it's there) has an exact replica of thier gym. He found that what he calls slow and long workouts...workouts at a moderate level for extended periods of time. Ones that keep the body in a aerobic state for a period of more than twenty minutes. done regularly are the worst for injury with the least amount of gain. Then workouts over twenty minutes, mixed with anaerobic and aerobic training are second. Mind this is done a regular basis. The best were workouts kept shorter than twenty minutes, that worked in whats called the ATP-Creatine system. So definition time.
> 
> 
> from Wikipedia.
> ...


This is a lot of TL;DR based on adult humans, not juvenile canines. But as they say, if you can't convince them, confuse them.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> James, I don't have audio or video of Dr. Chris Zink, or an autographed picture for that matter. It's a professional symposium, not Comic Con.
> 
> 
> 
> This is a lot of TL;DR based on adult humans, not juvenile canines. But as they say, if you can't convince them, confuse them.


Oh...no proof. I mean it is a bit condesending to ask for it. Sorry.

And it is some info on adults...also a little on kids, jumping...helps make bigger, stronger bones. that sort of thing. I am sure the canine body adapts using similar mechinisms. I mean I got no proof. So do not ask for it....I got most of the info from my wife, and a class I took....They told me they had read studies, shown me graphs and shit.. I just took thier word for it. I felt It would have been an asshole move to actually ask to see the studies to make sure they were not lying to me.

BTW that post was for Connie.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

James Downey said:


> And to bring it all around. The periodization method this is where you break your training up into time blocks, like 4 week blocks. The first 4 weeks is the atrophy stage. (and you can look up on your on what the differences are in stages) This is where you build muscle...not strength or power...just actual mass. Then the next4, is strength. make the muscle strong. then the next 4 is power make the muscle explosive and quick. and the next 4 are function. this where take the new muscle and teach to preform a utilitarian task. During each phase the focus will be either atophy, strength, power, function....but you will still incoroprate the other 3 you are not focusing on....but they will be subordinate.


We also work with a time blocks training schedule for the dogs in order to peak towards a specific day (Championship).
A friend of mine coaches olympic athletes and he adised me how to build up the training schedule towards a specific peak period.
And the results of the dogs prove that it works pretty well.
Includes a lot of endurance training (swimming, treadmill)
Strength training (pulling MTB on heavy surfaces & hills)
The explosive part and the speed are developed during ring training
Also there is stretching included after the workouts.

But then again, these are adult dogs.

Which doesn't mean they didn't get any training as pups. They did a lot of jumping and running but they never were forced to heavy exercise. What they did is what they "wanted" to do and being energetic animals, this is quite a lot.
Something we never do is throw ball over and over again or play frisbee. 
Agilty is trained by playing "cat & mouse" with the dog (hope this is clear because I don't know how to explain it otherwise), so he learns progressively how to esquive and make quick turns.
And I can tell you that by the time the real work starts for them, they already look like athletes.


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## Mark Horne (Oct 12, 2006)

If you are interested in a book on the Subject (humans) that is written in plain language for normal people then the author I would recommend is Tudor BOMPA. He is in his 80’s now, written many books around common sense but is famous for introducing strength training to athletes in the 1960’s.

We’ve all heard of Core Strength but few really understand its value. In simple terms, as a cop I grab hold of and offender who will try and escape by pulling away and struggling. The majority of my power is in my legs, as I drive backwards with my legs the power is being transferred through my core to my shoulders and arms, if my core is weak then you can see how that power is lost. 

Something not mentioned is the timing of food. When a person has a workout the gold standard is to eat a meal within an hour of training, then another 2hrs after that. I have tried after training at the Club on a Sunday, I put the dog in the car, after 45mins he has cooled down and I have finished chatting, I give him a chicken wing or piece of tripe, we then have the 90min journey home, then I de kit the car, tell my wife what a hero I’ve been all day at the Club, then give dog his tea (dinner) at 7pm.

Mark


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Sounds like some more fabrications by the great Downey.. I read it somewhere or someone told me.....again. Probably swallowed ENS hook line and sinker too.


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## Ellen Piepers (Nov 6, 2008)

Martine Loots said:


> Which doesn't mean they didn't get any training as pups. They did a lot of jumping and running but they never were forced to heavy exercise. What they did is what they "wanted" to do and being energetic animals, this is quite a lot.
> Something we never do is throw ball over and over again or play frisbee.
> Agilty is trained by playing "cat & mouse" with the dog (hope this is clear because I don't know how to explain it otherwise), so he learns progressively how to esquive and make quick turns.
> And I can tell you that by the time the real work starts for them, they already look like athletes.


I agree with Martine. I honestly don't see the need to do real physical training with young dogs.We might be privileged to live so close to an area where there are fields and forest to go for daily walks, but we do take advantage of that fact. So from a young age, we take them for walks there, both on their own and with the adult dogs. Then they just do their natural thing: play a bit, chase a bit (this we always control and stop when we see fit), jump over obstacles, climb onto objects, just run around...... My now 8 month old mal is in great shape, is fast, agile and jumps high, but I never ask her to do it, it is purely her own initiative.


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## kendell jones (Aug 26, 2009)

i'd agree with harry about the weight pull - although i may be a little bias...

with a dog less than a year, i wouldnt put any real weight behind the dog. throw a tow chain (maybe 40-50 lbs) on the back of a harness and have him pull it around. keep the weights low and increase the distance...drag weights on grass will add more resistance (and pulling drag weights on concrete makes a horrible noise). a tire will bounce around and get stuck in grass, etc - its not a smooth resistance. i'd start with drag weights for a couple months and if you have people near you that pull, once he's 12-16 months (depending on how he matures), hook him up to a cart and start increasing weights from there. once you get him hooked up to a cart, you'd switch from lower weights/longer reps, to higher weights/shorter reps.

its cheap, easy and you can do it pretty much anywhere. swimming is great, but if you dont have access to water or bad weather, or you have a dog that doesnt like water...well, then you're shit out of luck. 

if you dont plan to actually pull him, i wouldnt worry about buying a cart or weights or anything...a tow chain is your best bet for low impact strength conditioning. my female beefed up a ton in just a few months when i started pulling her. i just found pictures of her the other day from before and her body has definitely changed for the better.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

James Downey said:


> .... a class I took....They told me they had read studies, shown me graphs and shit.. I just took thier word for it. I felt It would have been an asshole move to actually ask to see the studies to make sure they were not lying to me.



Is this it (or related)?

http://www.eliteathletetraining.com/


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Is this it (or related)?
> 
> http://www.eliteathletetraining.com/


 
No, The class I went to was given by the Coast Guard. It was a military "c" school


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Sounds like some more fabrications by the great Downey.. I read it somewhere or someone told me.....again. Probably swallowed ENS hook line and sinker too.


 
I love you Don, And I mean that in the gayest possible way.


And I challenge you then to go to find the truth. Or are you simply more obsessed with calling me a liar. But that's cool...At least I do not watch puppies ****ing die of disease in my backyard and do nothing. Compared to that...Fibbing about some phyiscal fitness shit is almost a virtue.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Never called you a liar James. I do believe you don't know anything from coming to your own conclusions or from actual experience. Now you make off the wall claims about watching puppies die of disease. You really have nothing you won't stoop to to cover up your lack of knowledge. Consider this a tit for tat James. You can't help yourself and think you need to make comment whenever I post. Seems what you are good at is Waa waaa waa.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

don turnipseed said:


> never called you a liar james. I do believe you don't know anything from coming to your own conclusions or from actual experience. Now you make off the wall claims about watching puppies die of disease. You really have nothing you won't stoop to to cover up your lack of knowledge. Consider this a tit for tat james. You can't help yourself and think you need to make comment whenever i post. Seems what you are good at is waa waaa waa.


sweet!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

sam wilks said:


> Im looking for ways to exercise dogs to build up there strength and endurance. Something for younger dogs thats not hard on their body!



Let's go back to this.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

over-simplified but by the numbers :
1. educate yourself on canine anatomy and biomechanics
2. feed em a high quality diet
3. let them play as much as they want as a pup while keeping all four on the floor until they get so tired they completely crash.....multiple times in a 24hr period after digesting meals
3a. if they won't do #3 by themselves stimulate them so they do
4. as they reach full size add resistance keeping #1 in mind, using imagination
5. teach em to like swimming early in life (gold standard) 
6. give em a challenging job that complements #3


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I don't think anyone in this discussion is approving of letting the pups become couch potatoes. It's just a matter of staying in control of the pups activities and not running them in the ground for the sake of "conditioning". 
As mentioned before, it's nothing more then common sense. 
With my pups I take them on walks in the woods or just playing with them. That's starting at 7-8 weeks old. You just watch the pup to see it's not getting exhausted and add a little distance/time each week. Amazing how quickly that prepares a pup for more exhausting training down the road.


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