# Three Breeds Gain Full AKC Recognition Including Cane Corso



## Amy Swaby

"The American Kennel Club is pleased to welcome the Cane Corso, Icelandic Sheepdog and Leonberger as the 165th, 166th, and 167th AKC recognized breeds. The new breeds became eligible for AKC registration on June 1, 2010.

The Cane Corso is a muscular and large-boned breed and is distinguished by his noble, majestic and powerful presence. The Cane Corso is easily trained, and affectionate to his owner and family. 

The only native dog of Iceland, and indispensable to the Icelandic people, the Icelandic Sheepdog is playful, inquisitive, hardy and agile. The Icelandic Sheepdog adapted its working style to Iceland's local terrain and farming techniques since its arrival to the country in AD 874 – 930. 

The Leonberger is a calm, graceful, non–aggressive breed, originally bred as a family, farm and draft dog. Today the breed's most important task is being a reliable family companion. In fact, Leonbergers are often called the "nanny" dog because of their affinity for children."


I'm wondering how long it will take for the Cane Corso to start looking like a Neopolitan Mastiff


----------



## Jerry Lyda

Just wondering????? If you have one of these breeds how do you get papers (AKC) on it? What do you have to have other than the dog???


----------



## Amy Swaby

Jerry Lyda said:


> Just wondering????? If you have one of these breeds how do you get papers (AKC) on it? What do you have to have other than the dog???


You know I have nooooo idea how they work that out when they first introduce a new breed to full registration...


----------



## Maureen A Osborn

Amy Swaby;204923
[FONT=Arial said:


> I'm wondering how long it will take for the Cane Corso to start looking like a Neopolitan Mastiff[/FONT]


They already are....I used to show in the Rare Breed Shows and many a CC is way too big and wrinkly....they are pushing 130-140 lbs now and the males are supposed to be around 115 tops. Dang shame cause it is supposed to be a working breed.


----------



## Maureen A Osborn

Jerry Lyda said:


> Just wondering????? If you have one of these breeds how do you get papers (AKC) on it? What do you have to have other than the dog???


 If your CC is already registered with the parent club, they are automatically grandfathered into AKC. If not, your CC needs to be registered with one of the registeries that they accept (FCI) and it can be done only while they have an open registery. Once the registery is closed(amount of time differs with each breed, depends on the #'s in the registery), only pups from an AKC sire bred to AKC dam can be registered as far as I know.


----------



## Nicole Stark

Maureen A Osborn said:


> If your CC is already registered with the parent club, they are automatically grandfathered into AKC. If not, your CC needs to be registered with one of the registeries that they accept (FCI) and it can be done only while they have an open registery. Once the registery is closed(amount of time differs with each breed, depends on the #'s in the registery), only pups from an AKC sire bred to AKC dam can be registered as far as I know.


That's exactly right. When I served on the BOD for the DDBS one of the projects leading up to AKC recognition was to collect as many pedigrees as possible for submission to the AKC. Years later, I received paperwork from the AKC for a deceased dog who at the time of the project was living. After the fact it became quite an arduous process for some to get their dogs "legitimate". It might explain in the influx of imports that flooded in the 2-3 years following AKC recognition.


----------



## Bob Scott

](*,) Three more breeds headed down the tube!

The CC is already a mess in this area. Seems to be getting popular with the gangsta crowd in the hood.
AKC is going to grab every bred it can because the more popular breeds commming along have their own registration and that's killing AKC to see the registration money going elsewhere.


----------



## Jeff Batiste

I co-own a Cane Corso with a good friend it's just a pup 6(mo) but shows pretty good drive to work for a a molosser breed, as he develops we will determine which way to take him but his foundation will be Sch. Another friend and club member has a Sch I Corso scored 270 in her trial this past Feb. I own a Presa Canario that got his BH at 15mo. and is working on his Sch I right now, probably early next year. 

There are working line Corso's out there, you have to look but there out there; you just can't expect them to work like a GSD you have to appreciate the breed for what it is... I share this with the forum not becasue they are significant accomplishments, but because I get tired of seeing the stupid assumptions about the working abilities made by people about breeds other than Mals & GSD's. 

Lots of people on this forum talk like they are the greatest trainers in the world, yet they only work with GSD's or Mals; who can't take a high drive working pup and title it? Impress me, take a dog that doesn't have the genetic blueprint for the work and title it CC, Presa, AB then maybe you will be in the position to discuss where the breed is headed. 

Lastly Bob, who is this gangsta crowd in the hood? Most of the people that I know, that own these dogs are caucasian and live in the suburbs with household incomes over 300K.


----------



## Don Turnipseed

AKC has been in financial straights. That is why they have now non pedigree dogs eligible for different venues. Forgot what they call it. They will likely accept breeds more easily than in the past because of it. Seems the other registries are cutting into AKC's profit margin. AKC is doing several things they would have never done in the past. Now is the time to deal.


----------



## Kat LaPlante

I like your statement about the "gangsta crowd" I see a ton of punks with their hoodies up and their cropped eared dogs attached to the leash by a 3 inch wide studded aggitation collar. Little do they know thier Molosser breed is likely not going to bite a human. 

I hope they all get a big BAD bag of Meth! Too bad these monumental dogs are revered by non-contributing zero's.


----------



## Amy Swaby

Jeff Batiste said:


> Lastly Bob, who is this gangsta crowd in the hood? Most of the people that I know, that own these dogs are caucasian and live in the suburbs with household incomes over 300K.


Apparently you haven't been around many ghettos, but don't get very overly offended by the truth. The CC is growing in rampant popularity in the ghetto, there at least 20 alone in ONE ghetto here in Savannah. There are no gsd's no mals and the only rottweilers were mine and like 2 others. The only thing that tops the CC here is the pitbull.

This thread isn't talking about the usability of the C so I'm not sure where the rest of the diatribe came from, most of the other commenters have CC's have worked them and I have rottweilers so.. it's not like I had mals or shepherds in my kennels.


----------



## Bob Scott

Amy Swaby said:


> Apparently you haven't been around many ghettos, but don't get very overly offended by the truth. The CC is growing in rampant popularity in the ghetto, there at least 20 alone in ONE ghetto here in Savannah. There are no gsd's no mals and the only rottweilers were mine and like 2 others. The only thing that tops the CC here is the pitbull.
> 
> Thank you to da pretty island girl who now lives in Savannah! :-D :wink:
> 
> 
> Jeff, I know absolutely nothing of those "caucasians" that live in suburbs and 300k incomes.
> My suburb was called the North Side.


----------



## Jeff Batiste

I must admit I don't make it a habit of hanging out in the ghetto :-D ! However I know Savannah has some pretty rough areas but if you call that ghetto, then you have never really seen one. Furthermore basing an opinion on the 20 CC's you've seen in the Savannah Ghetto only illustrates my point even further... It's your opinion based on a sample size of 20 from a small city in GA, your degree isn't in math is it?

Not at all overly offended by the truth but I am offended by people who state their opinion as fact.....

Now if there has been has their been an increase in the number of CC's in the inner city, say that. but the statement that was made was A loaded one. That needed to be addressed. As far as the diatribe about usability, if you go back and re-read some of the prior posts you will see both explicit and implicit statements about the breeds working abilities or non working abilities to be exact....

_"I'm wondering how long it will take for the Cane Corso to start looking like a Neopolitan Mastiff[_

_"They already are....I used to show in the Rare Breed Shows and many a CC is way too big and wrinkly....they are pushing 130-140 lbs now and the males are supposed to be around 115 tops. Dang shame cause it is supposed to be a working breed. "_


----------



## Jeff Batiste

Well not sure where you were on the North Side, but they're out there  ! Bob you and Amy need to stop going to the ghetto dog watching !

No worries, you guys absolutley may have it dialed in for Savannah, that's not what I see in Atlanta or my travels so I 'm just sharing another perspective.


----------



## Kadi Thingvall

I don't have a major like or dislike for AKC, but I want to point something out here. AKC doesn't breed dogs. If a breed is ruined, its because of the people who breed/buy/sell/own the dogs, not because of AKC. Look at the "pit bulls" which were brought up earlier in this thread. AKC doesn't even recognize "pit bulls", or American Pit Bull Terriers.

Someone else mentioned the questionable working ability and physical structure of some of these breeds. If it's already questionable before AKC recognized the breed, how can AKC be blamed? I'd be willing to bet the parent club for these breeds is already holding conformation shows, rewarding overdone dogs with titles, etc. Gaining AKC recognition will give the people interested in those venues more places to play, but the interest is already there, and that's on the owners/breeders.

AKC's only standard for breeding is "registered parents". They don't require a CH or other non-working title before a dog can be bred. Course they don't require a working title/certification either. But once again, having one or lack of, is on the owner/breeder.


----------



## Bob Scott

Jeff Batiste said:


> Well not sure where you were on the North Side, but they're out there  ! Bob you and Amy need to stop going to the ghetto dog watching !
> 
> No worries, you guys absolutley may have it dialed in for Savannah, that's not what I see in Atlanta or my travels so I 'm just sharing another perspective.



St. Louis North Side and believe me they are right behind the pit in numbers for inner city "guard dogs". CCs 
are becomming even more popular then Rotties in certain areas here.
I wont quote numbers I'll just say that based on what I see. 

kadi I will agree that it's the breeders not the organization that pushes a breed.
I've seen it happen to numerous breeds. AKC only recognized 125 or so breeds when I started in dogs.


----------



## Maureen A Osborn

I have to agree with Bob and Amy...I live in NY and the majority of people that I see that own CC are non-Caucasian. The majority of CC that I have seen at shows have also had poor temperaments(fear biters). Not liking the way the breed is going both physically and mentally. Almost every Corsi I have seen worked in bitework goes into defense very quickly.....I don't like that one bit. Not saying my breed, the DA is any better, cause I've got the idiots saying they like their dogos "hard" and not friendly to strangers, even if introduced. Not saying that someone should be able to come give a dogo or CC hugs and kisses, but if I say a person is ok, then my dog best accept them(unless the person gives them a reason to not be trusted)


----------



## Bob Scott

Maureen A Osborn said:


> I have to agree with Bob and Amy...I live in NY and the majority of people that I see that own CC are non-Caucasian. The majority of CC that I have seen at shows have also had poor temperaments(fear biters). Not liking the way the breed is going both physically and mentally. Almost every Corsi I have seen worked in bitework goes into defense very quickly.....I don't like that one bit. Not saying my breed, the DA is any better, cause I've got the idiots saying they like their dogos "hard" and not friendly to strangers, even if introduced. Not saying that someone should be able to come give a dogo or CC hugs and kisses, but if I say a person is ok, then my dog best accept them(unless the person gives them a reason to not be trusted)


I'm not going to limit what I see to Caucasian or non Caucasian. The inner city/ghetto/hood whatever you want to call it is occupied by most everyone and ignorance covers all flavors! :wink:


----------



## Maureen A Osborn

Bob Scott said:


> I'm not going to limit what I see to Caucasian or non Caucasian. The inner city/ghetto/hood whatever you want to call it is occupied by most everyone and ignorance covers all flavors! :wink:


 I coudln't call the non_Causcasians that go the dog shows that I used to go to "ghetto, etc" they have money, and quite a bit of it.....you dump at least $500 in a weekend of showing, plus the nice clothing, etc.....definately would not say any of them are from the hood.


----------



## Jeff Batiste

Bob- I agree with you ignorance covers all flavors. However, one point I was trying to make is that when you use inner city/ghetto it's translated to most people as black or minority groups.... That's why to me it's loaded.... No worries just giving you another perspective, not trying to push political correctness just pointing out how it comes across.... Just call them ignorant owners  

As far as Maureens point about the protection work with this breed, I have noticed that many go into defese very quickly as well and I do think that's a telling sign of where the breed has been taken by poor breeding, but in alot of cases it is the poor training that does the most damage... You need to be patient with these dogs and take your time working them in protection not what most want to do.... they do civil agitation to get the dog biting a sleeve too early and then you get the crap we've seen.... However when you see a good one which I've only seen 2 or 3 to me it's pretty impresive to see a dog 110 - 115lbs work with athleticism and power....

They are out there you just have to look hard to find them... I just don't want to throw the whole breed out because a significant portion of the owners are knuckleheads.... If we were going to do that there wouldn't be many breeds left to work...


----------



## Christopher Smith

Bob Scott said:


> I'm not going to limit what I see to Caucasian or non Caucasian. The inner city/ghetto/hood whatever you want to call it is occupied by most everyone and ignorance covers all flavors! :wink:


Bob, the term ghetto are referring to a single ethnic group living in one area. So your clean up attempt is still leaving you a bit.... soiled.


----------



## Bob Scott

Christopher Smith said:


> Bob, the term ghetto are referring to a single ethnic group living in one area. So your clean up attempt is still leaving you a bit.... soiled.


Christopher, you need to keep up with the times.
The term originated in the slums of Venice where the Jewish population lived.
Today it's directed more to economic and social structure then ethnic groups. 
I've lived in mixed neighborhoods all my life. Grew up in the city's North side which was mixed almost as far as I can remember. 
When I got married I moved into the county (North county). I moved three yrs ago INTO another mixed neighborhood that is still North county just better economically and socially then before. 40 K house to a 180 k house. That's my preference (unless I could have found a nice, small farm) so my "clean up attempt" is your words to describe me without knowing a thing about me.
Those wanting to get "clean" move to West county or St. Charles County. I'm content and comfortable where I'm at. ;-)


----------



## Amy Swaby

I live in Savannah for part of the year, the majority of my time is spent in Bahamas, I'll walk the streets at 3 am through Atlanta before I do it home. And outside of the historic district savannah is pretty much ghetto.

This is getting outside of my original point though.Even if we go with the idea that these aren't ideal working dogs I'm more griping about that fact that once a breed hits the AKC everything about it has to be overdone, light wrinkles become huge folds, short legs turn into stumps etc.


----------



## Lindsay Janes

Bob Scott said:


> I'm not going to limit what I see to Caucasian or non Caucasian. The inner city/ghetto/hood whatever you want to call it is occupied by most everyone and ignorance covers all flavors! :wink:


 Ditto. I have seen a ghetto Caucasian walking down with a pitbull on chain before too.


----------



## Tiffany Damm

Lindsay Janes said:


> Ditto. I have seen a ghetto Caucasian walking down with a pitbull on chain before too.


 Well I am far from a ghetto caucasion lol and most the other owners I have met in CA are as described by another poster. Not saying it isn't going to go there at some point. 

I was speaking to a cane corso breeder yesterday about it amd Yes there will be some money hungry fool that sells the breed but isn't that whats happened to EVERY breed? 

For the record on size my CC is 106 lbs and not at all wrinkley. In terms of him being a working dog, well we will have to see.


----------



## Christopher Fox

> I don't have a major like or dislike for AKC, but I want to point something out here. AKC doesn't breed dogs. If a breed is ruined, its because of the people who breed/buy/sell/own the dogs, not because of AKC.


The AKC sets the guidlines for the breeding programs. But one of many examples of how they direct breeding:

*Disqualifications*
_Any dog that attempts to bite the judge._

I have a major dislike for the AKC and have for years.

How many working dogs would let a judge do what a judge does to a dog without at least moving away. I am not talking just working dogs on this forum. I have met more than one heeler and ACD that would tell an AKC judge to go do something untoward to himself when the judge started all of that poking and prodding, etc.

My 11 mostly blind dog would bite a judge if that judge did to him what judges do to dogs in the ring. It would be more of a fear nip, but the point is, there nothing wrong or unstable about my dog. What's wrong and not normal is what they expect out of dogs for behavior and that they emphasize conformation with closed stud books above all else.

I understand your point about breeders, but the AKC, as an organization has been ruining working dogs of all type for quite some time now. Border Collies were the last major breed that bummed me out that got inducted into the hall of shame. Watch how many types disappear. In 10 more years, BCs will all look the same. You won't see the litlle 32 lb herding tasmanian devil or the ever so often 55+ lb herding giant.

And gone with them will be their herding genes, 'cause the AKC doesn't give two shits about whether or not a BC can herd.

There number one priority is conformation. Is the dogs a-hole 2.33334558 inches from the base of the tail? Does it have this small 1 inch patch of white fur in the proper part of its chest, etc. That is sort of stupid stuff that creates genetic disasters when that becomes the breeding priority.

The AKC is but one piece of a big pie. I don't know the solution. People in America have been a little more trivial in dog ownership in the 20th century it seems. The wrong things are important, dogs breeds are desired for the wrong reasons, working dogs are demanded to be bred down to fit into suburban homes and on and on.

*The AKC is not the problem, they are a part of it, and a highly visible, organized part.

No 'purebred' I ever own will be registered with them.

Yes, I think the AKC contributes to the ruination of any working dog breed it decides it needs to be the final aribtor of what defines that breed.*


----------



## Donna DeYoung

Jeff Batiste said:


> Lots of people on this forum talk like they are the greatest trainers in the world, yet they only work with GSD's or Mals; who can't take a high drive working pup and title it? Impress me, take a dog that doesn't have the genetic blueprint for the work and title it


What would be the point? And the end result is ... dog still doesn't have the genetic blueprint for the work.

Not saying you can't learn something from such an activity or have fun or whatever. Just wouldn't make it an obsession and I certainly wouldn't give someone more respect for driving a car w/ square wheels than someone driving a regular car w/ round wheels - especially when the round wheels work perfectly well!

but back to AKC. what took them so long.


----------



## Jeff Batiste

Donna we just have to agree to disagree. I don't think the square wheels on a car is an appropriate comparison. 

To me a when you have a Shepherd or Mal that has been bred for the work and you title them It's like starting on third base, then when you cross home plate, you act like you hit a home run... Better yet it's like extremely wealthy people who talk about having to work hard to get where they are, but inherited the majority of their wealth. Do they deserve some credit? Absolutley, they have done some work but probably no where near the guy who had nothing when he started out...

When you take an alternate breed it may have raw traits necessary for the work ie.. some level of food or ball drive, natural retrieving, scenting ability, trainability etc.. But those traits have not been selected and bred for, for over a hundred years like what you see in GSD's. So to me that's impressive and it usually means that you have a trainer that is a little more patient and forced to be creative in the training to get over the fact the dog may not be genetically predisposed.... 

Selecting for dogs of alternate breeds that can do the work has got to start somewhere right? 

Now if it's all about competing, then get a Shepherd or Mal and get to training.. That's what I did. I've got a Shepherd pup that is a promosing prospect...

But if you love a breed and want to improve it find the raw traits you need for the work, in the breed of your choice and if you have to begin your own breeding program...... 

Donna hopefully you have a dynamite Shepherd;l because comparing other peoples breeds to square wheels on a car. You'd better not have a Shepherd that works like a P.O.S.....


----------



## Travis Ragin

Donna DeYoung said:


> What would be the point? And the end result is ... dog still doesn't have the genetic blueprint for the work.
> 
> Not saying you can't learn something from such an activity or have fun or whatever. Just wouldn't make it an obsession and I certainly wouldn't give someone more respect for driving a car w/ square wheels than someone driving a regular car w/ round wheels - especially when the round wheels work perfectly well!
> 
> but back to AKC. what took them so long.


I think the phrase "genetic blueprint for the work" & "that can do _THE WORK" .... _ is being thrown around in this thread as a blanket statement for ANY type of *WORK*.


What exactly is German *SHEPHERD* dogs' deep-down genetic blueprint? 

Or an American *BULLDOGS* deep-down genetic blueprint?

As far as molossers...Presa,CC,Bandog etc.......To say that it's not in their Genetic Blueprint,*TO NOT* bite--human or animal.(PersonalProtection-sentry work ...)..I just don't get.....They are the Original WAR DOGS.....this is 99.5% of the reason these dogs are in existence to this day.........am I mistaken?


This thread (now) seems to be about.............. WORK = SCHUTZHUND or Fr.Ring ONLY?


t


----------



## Travis Ragin

Travis Ragin said:


> I think the phrase "genetic blueprint for the work" & "that can do _THE WORK" .... _ is being thrown around in this thread as a blanket statement for ANY type of *WORK*.
> 
> 
> What exactly is German *SHEPHERD* dogs' deep-down genetic blueprint?
> 
> Or an American *BULLDOGS* deep-down genetic blueprint?
> 
> As far as molossers...Presa,CC,Bandog etc.......To say that it's not in their Genetic Blueprint,*TO NOT* bite--human or animal.(PersonalProtection-sentry work ...)..I just don't get.....They are the Original WAR DOGS.....this is 99.5% of the reason these dogs are in existence to this day.........am I mistaken?
> 
> 
> This thread (now) seems to be about.............. WORK = SCHUTZHUND or Fr.Ring ONLY?
> 
> 
> t




And for a lot of today's alleged _Trainers_......Genetics = easy excuse for (human) incompetence :-({|=


----------



## Tiffany Damm

Travis Ragin said:


> I think the phrase "genetic blueprint for the work" & "that can do _THE WORK" .... _ is being thrown around in this thread as a blanket statement for ANY type of *WORK*.
> 
> 
> What exactly is German *SHEPHERD* dogs' deep-down genetic blueprint?
> 
> Or an American *BULLDOGS* deep-down genetic blueprint?
> 
> As far as molossers...Presa,CC,Bandog etc.......To say that it's not in their Genetic Blueprint,*TO NOT* bite--human or animal.(PersonalProtection-sentry work ...)..I just don't get.....They are the Original WAR DOGS.....this is 99.5% of the reason these dogs are in existence to this day.........am I mistaken?
> Thank you! I'm still new but was wondering af anyone read the article! CC were used to hunt bore and fought along aide roman warriors. They currently are used at the gates in the Vatican. CC from what I have seen love their owners mine had great prey drive.... If it moves he chases it. He's always thinking learns quick and makes amazing eye contact. Before people saybits mot in the gentic blue print they need to hit google. Everyone sayin they are seeing them in the ghetto- man i wish I knew that before i drove 5 hours to see one. There is only maybe 15 listed in the rescue currently.
> 
> Yes there aren't alot of them " working " but their aren't many people who have dedicated themselves to the training. Those who have put the time in are accomplishing titles!
> Congrats to bodyguards mufasa on his schutzhund 3 and scadifios Damien on his pdc.
> 
> 
> This thread (now) seems to be about.............. WORK = SCHUTZHUND or Fr.Ring ONLY?
> 
> 
> t


----------



## Tiffany Damm

in terms of akc I prefer ukc which affiliates with sacci and offers us more things to achieve working dog titles. Sorry for the horrible spelling and butchering that previous post. I was typing on my phone :/


----------



## Oscar Mora

Tiffany Damm said:


> in terms of akc I prefer ukc which affiliates with sacci and offers us more things to achieve working dog titles. Sorry for the horrible spelling and butchering that previous post. I was typing on my phone :/


 Hey Tiffany who is your corso out of?? just wondering. Thanks


----------



## Tiffany Damm

show dogs- I'm not going to lie, lol- although he has some littermates doing schutzhund. I do think the commitment for many owners is a bit much. I train in group twice a week and we do different stuff on a daily basis. 
He's a castleguard midas son out of castleguard sapphire.


----------



## Jeff Batiste

Tiffany- I should have qualified my comments more when I'm referring to work to me that means Schutzhund. To me it shows how well rounded is yes any dog can be trained to bite a man. But can he bite a man, track, retrieve etc.. All under the control of the handler? To me Schutzhund is the sport that highlights a well rounded dogs abilities. Just opinion I know..... With that being said it is unquestionable to me that when dogs are bred for this type of work it is a huge headstart.....


----------



## Tiffany Damm

Jeff Batiste said:


> Tiffany- I should have qualified my comments more when I'm referring to work to me that means Schutzhund. To me it shows how well rounded is yes any dog can be trained to bite a man. But can he bite a man, track, retrieve etc.. All under the control of the handler? To me Schutzhund is the sport that highlights a well rounded dogs abilities. Just opinion I know..... With that being said it is unquestionable to me that when dogs are bred for this type of work it is a huge headstart.....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdPJWllX2ug&feature=youtube_gdata


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81YqJDFftac&feature=youtube_gdata




There scores were pretty impressive as well. Just sayin


----------



## Michael Swetz

Travis Ragin said:


> I think the phrase "genetic blueprint for the work" & "that can do _THE WORK" .... _is being thrown around in this thread as a blanket statement for ANY type of *WORK*.
> 
> 
> What exactly is German *SHEPHERD* dogs' deep-down genetic blueprint?
> 
> Or an American *BULLDOGS* deep-down genetic blueprint?
> 
> As far as molossers...Presa,CC,Bandog etc.......To say that it's not in their Genetic Blueprint,*TO NOT* bite--human or animal.(PersonalProtection-sentry work ...)..I just don't get.....They are the Original WAR DOGS.....this is 99.5% of the reason these dogs are in existence to this day.........am I mistaken?
> 
> 
> This thread (now) seems to be about.............. WORK = SCHUTZHUND or Fr.Ring ONLY?
> 
> 
> t


 
Yes, you are mistaken. I'm a CC owner and all that Canis Pugnax, Roman War dog stuff is crap. I love molossers, but the hype that is kicked around is B.S. Some can do "work" (however you want to define it), but most cannot. You see this a lot in dogs in general. "I know Duke would protect me if need be." But this illusion tends to be especially strong with molosser owners because they assume an intimidating appearance translates to a badass dog.

99.5% of the reason a lot of the Presa, CC, bandog, etc. dogs are in existence today is because people like how they look and "hey that looks like a giant pitbull" and bigger is always better. There are some molosser breeders out there that are serious about trying to improve working qualities, but there are far more dumbasses out there with their "natural protectors that require no training."


----------



## Jeff Batiste

Tiffany- I am not sure what your point is, I think we may be in violent agreement. 

To be clear I absolutely believe their are alternate breeds like Corso's,Presa's etc can do Schutzhund. The two Corso's you posted video of are two of the best around Mufasa and Damian. I have done helper work for Marisha on Damian countless times, while that wasn't me in the video posted, I'm sure she will tell you I've had a hand in helping her train him amongst others..

The point is these are two exceptional Corso where are the others? The people training these dogs found the right Corso's to do the work and then worked their ass off, more so than if they would have purchased a Shepherd at had been bred for the sport. Thats my opinion but i'd say its a pretty logical conclusion. They in my mind deserve a little more respect for their accomplishment.

Now if these two are bred properly you have the beginning of a breeding program that may lead to more Corso's that are more likely to have the traits to do Schutzhund. Now do that for a hundred years and you may start to develop what Shepherds have with their pedigree's.

How many alternate breeds have you owned? How many have you titled?


----------



## Michael Swetz

Jeff,

You decoy Marisha's dogs? That's cool. I've chatted with her on several of the corso forums. She's a really good example for molosser people who need to put their money where their mouths are.


----------



## Jeff Batiste

Yes, Marisha and I belong to the same club and trained together prior to being members of our current club home. She is a great example of someone who is dedicated to training Corso's. She may come off the wrong way to some but she is certainly one of the most loyal to the breed and improving their working abilities.

I have to agree with you about most that own these types of dogs, they talk a lot but train very little and have even fewer accomplishments. Like I said I own a Presa myself and while there are some that are really dedicated to working their dogs and improving the breed the vast majority have less drive than their dogs :-D!


----------



## Daryl Ehret

Better genetics sure makes _me look better_ on the field :razz:


----------



## Twon Davis

what are CC's, Presa's, etc, alternatives to jeff? 

and your entitled to have your opinion on the ghetto crowd statement you made, especially since you don't think it was offensive or ignorant.

this forum is so important to some people, its not just a way to learn about dogs, it also serves as a way to release to personal feelings. 

this gives me an idea of a new topic....,


----------



## Bob Scott

Twon, please post an introduction in the Member's Bio forum.


----------



## Twon Davis

Bob Scott said:


> Twon, please post an introduction in the Member's Bio forum.


done


----------



## Travis Ragin

Michael Swetz said:


> Yes, you are mistaken. I'm a CC owner and all that Canis Pugnax, Roman War dog stuff *is crap*.* I love molossers, but the hype that is kicked around *is B.S.**
> 
> 99.5% of the reason a lot of the Presa, CC, bandog, etc. dogs are in existence today is because people like how they look"


Swetz,since I was quoted... I don't feel these * * are sufficient answers to my question as to the _Phenotype _of the dogs that were used back then.
If I am mistaken,that is fine,i can be wrong....but I'll need something more than you saying it's "crap"...to make be ignore all I have read, heard,and seen, on paintings & engravings.

You also tried to "spin" my % quote.........but we are actually in agreement...........a very high percentage of the reason for these dogs IS the Intimidation factor that a large dog provides......which is somewhat of a deterrent to crime in itself.....heck,that's half the battle right there,is it not?

What's wrong with someone wanting that:-s


t


----------



## Travis Ragin

Jeff Batiste said:


> As far as the diatribe about usability, if you go back and re-read some of the prior posts you will see both explicit and implicit statements about the breeds working abilities or non working abilities to be exact....
> 
> _"I'm wondering how long it will take for the Cane Corso to start looking like a Neopolitan Mastiff[_
> 
> _"They already are....I used to show in the Rare Breed Shows and many a CC is way too big and wrinkly....they are pushing 130-140 lbs now and the males are supposed to be around 115 tops. Dang shame cause it is supposed to be a working breed. "_


Jeff you were the firstperson to mention anything about the CC's "working abilities"...........these earlier posts...and the ones you quoted above, sounded like folks who have a lot of experience with Working dogs entering the _"Working Group"_ of DOG SHOWS,and seeing how the physical traits then start to lean to more exaggerated features for _SHOWING...._That's all I read.


Being a CO-owner for 6-months doesn't exactly qualify you to really discuss Cane Corso working breeders and working characteristics.The CC world is pretty small,really,If you were looking for foundation in SchH.....isn't that pup from mad river?....I absolutely would classify them in the TOP 10 of Quality CC's in the USA,maybe even TOP 5 --NO DOUBT........but Darrels dogs aren't known for working....or Shutzhund.Yet you speak with urgency about a dog needing "drives" to do the work.Did you even visit his kennel?Talk to him before purchase?.....He's a very nice and informed gentleman.


As far as your "theory" about _training _ traits to pass down I disagree with your ONLY logical conclusion....let's say you take a 14 month old Boerbol,put a prong collar around his neck,and teach him to retrieve using the Forced ret. method,you do it for 10 mos. til he gets it down pat.........for the next 10 mos.,you start to withold his food supply and begin tracking- training him to follow a path to his dinner......you've all throughout been training him in SchH.Protection routines,but spend another 3-6 mos to put it all together..............2 weeks later this dog gets a SchH1 title.............you then think these retrieving & tracking "TRAITS" are going to be Passed Down? and the dog is now immediately breed-quality?


Oh .....Also,don't worry about Tiffanys titles right now,she's got great trainers and The SACCI in her corner, so you'll be hearing her dog competing!....I think She also has experience with Raising/Training horses if that counts as an *ALTERNATE BREED?*


----------



## Mike Jones

Travis Ragin said:


> Jeff you were the firstperson to mention anything about the CC's "working abilities"...........these earlier posts...and the ones you quoted above, sounded like folks who have a lot of experience with Working dogs entering the _"Working Group"_ of DOG SHOWS,and seeing how the physical traits then start to lean to more exaggerated features for _SHOWING...._That's all I read.
> 
> 
> Being a CO-owner for 6-months doesn't exactly qualify you to really discuss Cane Corso working breeders and working characteristics.The CC world is pretty small,really,If you were looking for foundation in SchH.....isn't that pup from mad river?....I absolutely would classify them in the TOP 10 of Quality CC's in the USA,maybe even TOP 5 --NO DOUBT........but Darrels dogs aren't known for working....or Shutzhund.Yet you speak with urgency about a dog needing "drives" to do the work.Did you even visit his kennel?Talk to him before purchase?.....He's a very nice and informed gentleman.
> 
> 
> As far as your "theory" about _training _traits to pass down I disagree with your ONLY logical conclusion....let's say you take a 14 month old Boerbol,put a prong collar around his neck,and teach him to retrieve using the Forced ret. method,you do it for 10 mos. til he gets it down pat.........for the next 10 mos.,you start to withold his food supply and begin tracking- training him to follow a path to his dinner......you've all throughout been training him in SchH.Protection routines,but spend another 3-6 mos to put it all together..............2 weeks later this dog gets a SchH1 title.............you then think these retrieving & tracking "TRAITS" are going to be Passed Down? and the dog is now immediately breed-quality?
> 
> 
> Oh .....Also,don't worry about Tiffanys titles right now,she's got great trainers and The SACCI in her corner, so you'll be hearing her dog competing!....I think She also has experience with Raising/Training horses if that counts as an *ALTERNATE BREED?*


 
HMMM, this post has really taken a different tone. I don't know much about the breed as a whole but I have seen a few try to work and I was not impressed...they were scared of their own shadows.[-o< Most of them won't bite a sleeve and don't think about taking a stick hit.

From what I've seen, if any Cane Corso can get a Schutzhund title or any working title then they must be something special since for the most part they are overly defensive, have little to no prey drive and obedience looks like scrap. Now this is just my experience. Except for the few and I do mean few that have working titles, I have not seen much from that breed. 

Of course I do like to be proven wrong. \\/


----------



## Travis Ragin

Mike Jones said:


> " don't think about taking a stick hit."
> 
> From what I've seen, if any Cane Corso can get a Schutzhund title or "any working title" then they must be something special
> 
> "overly defensive,"
> 
> "have little to no prey drive"
> 
> 
> "and obedience looks like scrap". Now this is just my experience.
> 
> " Except for the few and I do mean few that have working titles."\\/"


Mike Jones....for some reason I can't get one answer to the several questions I've asked.

I'm not smart enough to multi-quote so please bear with my feeble attempts.

I won't discount anything you've seen.

The first quote sounds like you're talking about Protection Sports...From our perspective,a PP dog shouldn't allow itself to be beaten as you describe.(sounds like that calm grip talk)......imagine if that stick is a Machete or Ginsu kitchen knife....how many "hits" could any dog take?

I'm not sure we'd have the same view on"any" working titles,especially in the CC.....if you'd not accept the Hog-catching titled ones that have titled in the southern states for instance.They were bred to be a Utilitarian Farm Dog,with multi-uses and super malleable to what ever was required of them.....this "flexibility" is reflected in the multiple working venues spread across many different disciplines they've been titled and competed in. 

Overly defensive is definitely up to one's own perspective.....especially with a Molosser breed,they are not that easily provoked,and are handler sensitive for a reason,,because having a 130+ lbs. dog is a serious threat to any human being (handler & family included) if they all had a "short fuse" and the boundless energy of a Mali or terrier.......they'd literally be a" bull in a china shop" everywhere even in the home.

Prey drive...again its semantics..comparing their prey drive to what?.....take a raw untrained CC & a raw untrained GSD........and let them loose after a Boar or after a raccoon/rabbit.....I'd say the prey drive would be just about even.............If it was a hot summers day and this trial was held down in Texas somewhere,I'd say the CC would even have the advantage of a shorter coat,& more strength to finish the job when caught.


OB?....well,I dont see them as being any less *Intelligent* than any particular breeds,so IDK about that....on average they run around 100lbsweight,so,they wont move as quick and flashy as say Mali,GSD


----------



## Michael Swetz

Travis Ragin said:


> Swetz,since I was quoted... I don't feel these * * are sufficient answers to my question as to the _Phenotype _of the dogs that were used back then.
> If I am mistaken,that is fine,i can be wrong....but I'll need something more than you saying it's "crap"...to make be ignore all I have read, heard,and seen, on paintings & engravings.
> 
> You also tried to "spin" my % quote.........but we are actually in agreement...........a very high percentage of the reason for these dogs IS the Intimidation factor that a large dog provides......which is somewhat of a deterrent to crime in itself.....heck,that's half the battle right there,is it not?
> 
> What's wrong with someone wanting that:-s
> 
> 
> t


Okay, I'll bite. Were there molossers in Italy for a long time? Sure. Were there generation upon generation of secret purebred Roman war dogs? Hell no. Dogs were around and were bred (or bred themselves) to whatever was around. Have a look at the following. http://www.canecorsopedigree.com/modules/animal/pedigree.php?pedid=8 It's the pedigree of Basir, who was originally selected in the breed survey as the example for the corso standard. There were plenty of other breeds involved in the corso recovery.

Basir's father and paternal grandparents look more or less like what you would expect. However, if I just showed you a picture of his mother, would you have thought she was a corso? I sure wouldn't have. My point is that these dogs were not only all over the place in terms of breeding, but also in "phenotype". Here is a sculpture of a molosser from antiquity http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jennings_Dog. Doesn't look much like a corso to me.

The problem with the intimidation factor is that it attracts the wrong type of people. Just ask the APBT folks. I have 2 CC's so I don't have an axe to grind against the breed, but all the romantic stories of their origin is annoying.


----------



## Maureen A Osborn

OK, I have to add my 2 cents since I have seen many a Corsi at the shows I have attended over the years and I have to say that I am not happy with what I have seen as far as conformation and temperament. Travis, you speak of a dog that is 130 lbs +???? Whoa, the FCI and ENCI standard call for a female to be 40-45kg (88-99 lbs) and males 45-50 kg (99-110lbs)... 130lbs + is WAY too big and really hinders if not stops their working ability, ESPECIALLY hog hunting in the South. Second, I might have seen a handful of Corsi that even CLOSELY resemble Basir, which is a damn shame. The Corsi are looking more and more like the Neo, too fat, too wrinkly, ugh! I have had more than one Corsi and Presa try to bite me when I was trying to stack them up in the show ring, and one actually bit my friend in the face and sent her to the hospital for many stitches. Not saying my breed is any better, cause we also have way too big and crappy temperaments in the DA. Most of the dogs in the Working Group have been shot to sh*t and don't do their original function, and it sucks.
http://www.fci.be/uploaded_files/343gb2007_en.doc 
http://www.enci.it/razze/standard.php?id=343

http://images.search.yahoo.com/images/view?back=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.search.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%2Fimages%3Fp%3Dbasir%2Bcane%2Bcorso%26ei%3DUTF-8%26fr%3Dslv8-msgr%26fr2%3Dtab-web&w=800&h=662&imgurl=www.cane-corso.nl%2Fhonden%2Fgalery%2Fcerberusdogs%2Fimages%2Fbasir4.jpg&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cane-corso.nl%2Fhistorynieuws&size=53k&name=basir4+jpg&p=basir+cane+corso&oid=bc8179ad5d3321ae&fr2=tab-web&no=3&tt=57&sigr=1162v7iim&sigi=11u6ki5be&sigb=131o60dnf <~~~Basir image


----------



## Travis Ragin

Maureen A Osborn said:


> OK, I have to add my 2 cents since I have seen many a Corsi at the shows I have attended over the years and I have to say that I am not happy with what I have seen as far as conformation and temperament. Travis, you speak of a dog that is 130 lbs +???? Whoa, the FCI and ENCI standard call for a female to be 40-45kg (88-99 lbs) and males 45-50 kg (99-110lbs)... 130lbs + is WAY too big and really hinders if not stops their working ability, ESPECIALLY hog hunting in the South. Second, I might have seen a handful of Corsi that even CLOSELY resemble Basir, which is a damn shame. The Corsi are looking more and more like the Neo, too fat, too wrinkly, ugh! I have had more than one Corsi and Presa try to bite me when I was trying to stack them up in the show ring, and one actually bit my friend in the face and sent her to the hospital for many stitches. Not saying my breed is any better, cause we also have way too big and crappy temperaments in the DA. Most of the dogs in the Working Group have been shot to sh*t and don't do their original function, and it sucks.
> http://www.fci.be/uploaded_files/343gb2007_en.doc
> http://www.enci.it/razze/standard.php?id=343
> 
> http://images.search.yahoo.com/images/view?back=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.search.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%2Fimages%3Fp%3Dbasir%2Bcane%2Bcorso%26ei%3DUTF-8%26fr%3Dslv8-msgr%26fr2%3Dtab-web&w=800&h=662&imgurl=www.cane-corso.nl%2Fhonden%2Fgalery%2Fcerberusdogs%2Fimages%2Fbasir4.jpg&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cane-corso.nl%2Fhistorynieuws&size=53k&name=basir4+jpg&p=basir+cane+corso&oid=bc8179ad5d3321ae&fr2=tab-web&no=3&tt=57&sigr=1162v7iim&sigi=11u6ki5be&sigb=131o60dnf <~~~Basir image


Hi Maureen!

I won't ever try to argue away what examples folks have seen over the years,I'm aware......it makes you wonder why anyone would ever try to breed/own one really!!:lol:.....must be something though!

Oh yes I do understand your point about the FCI standard......with the UPPER weight limit for MALES being 110lbs.........It is now pretty much being super-sized I agree..The AKC standard now has NO weight limit.....but there's really no putting that genie back in the bottle,so don't know what to do#-o

I also like a nice working size Maureen,really!.....heres my 22 month-old female doing her Basir impressionO



And the last pic is when we were in Richmond,INDIANA a couple of weeks ago chasing the "bunnies":grin:



I do have to admit to liking the 130lb'ers of "old school"...like Luca Brazzi...& Colloseum Shadow,Cerebus lines too!...so I'm pretty flexible as far as type


----------



## Maureen A Osborn

Beautiful bitch Travis! Would love to see more pics of her...she's a rarity!

Not much to do but do what you know is correct, that's all I can do also.


----------



## Jeff Batiste

Travis first off nice looking dog. That being said I think you have taken my comments the wrong way. I absolutely believe the're Corso that can do the work and as far as Sch being a foundation I believe that every dog can get a BH, that's what a foundation is to me from their it is more about the traits of the dog if your going to go for a Sch I or II,III etc etc.....

My opinions on the working characteristics of the breed and molosser's in general comes from experience working with these breeds and training them. Again I own a Presa, co-own a Corso Pup and have trained doing helper with numerous Corso and Presa owners for the last several years. I don't claim to be an expert but I've got eyes and I call it the way I see it. As far as where I got my pup from my partner and I selected Mad River we asked for a Corso that was conformationally correct and showed potential to work and that's what we got. Means nothing in this breed as to wether he can do the work or not to go to a working line breeder in my opinion they haven't been doing it long enough to make a huge difference versus finding a puppy with the right traits and train it. 

Two of my club members have Corso's one has a BH the other has a Sch I and I have a BH on my Presa and i'm training him for a Sch I the arent huge accomplishments but they demonstrate some level of experience with getting these types of dogs to do the work. What have you done with your dog? What 
experience do you have doing helper work? How many molosser breeds have you worked with and help handlers train? How many Sch I Corso's have you worked? I'll wait for a response.

Furthermore your comments about training for Schutzhund show your ignorance; "a pinch collar on a Boerbol," "Training him to follow a path to his food bowl," Really ? You dont have a clue do you? Not only are you attempting to insult me you are insulting Schutzhund..... It aint that easy.......there are some dogs that you can use whatever method you like they won't do the work. If that's all it took everybody would have a Scutzhund title. You would have one, but you probably don't do you?
To be clear, my point was about selecting dogs that displayed the traits and drives to do the work, training them and breeding them for generations is logically going
to produce offspring with the propensity to do the work. The work allows you to highlight and harness what the dog has genetically, so when you breed for traits it 
certainly is passed down genetically its not a gaurantee but it's an indicator.

I really think you need to train your dog, get more experience around working dogs of all types then maybe we can have a a meaningful conversation. But for now you're wasting my time and patience. Learn a little something and do a little something then maybe we can talk.......


----------



## Travis Ragin

Jeff Batiste said:


> That being said I think you have taken my comments the wrong way. I absolutely believe the're Corso that can do *the work* and as far as *schH* *being a foundation* I believe that every dog can get a BH, that's what a foundation *is to ME *from their it is *more about the traits * of the dog if your going to go for a *SchH* or II,III etc etc.....
> 
> My opinions on the working characteristics of the breed and molosser's in general comes from experience working with these breeds and training them.
> 
> ** Means nothing in this breed as to wether he can do the work or not to go to a working line breeder in my opinion they haven't been doing it long enough to make a huge difference versus finding a puppy with the right traits and train it.
> 
> What have you done with your dog?
> 
> What
> experience do you have doing helper work?
> 
> How many molosser breeds have you worked with and help handlers train?
> 
> How many *SChH1* Corso's have you worked? I'll wait for a response.
> 
> . If that's all it took everybody would have a *ScHUTZHUND TITLE*. You would have one, but you probably don't do you?
> 
> 
> To be clear, my point was about selecting dogs that displayed the traits and drives to do the work, training them and breeding them for generations is logically going
> to produce offspring with the propensity to do the work. The work allows you to highlight and harness what the dog has genetically, so when you breed for traits it ..........


You'll have to re- read the comments i've posted,I attempted to be specific about what I was discussing & commenting on...already said i don't doubt what someone says they've seen...

**..Not sure I understand this statement...are you saying CC breeders haven't been around long?...or what you call working breeders?......both are CLEARLY misinformed statements.. btw.

What constitutes a working breeder? if 1 lone dog from 1 breeder gets a SchH1(YOUR only criteria for a work dog)...is that kennel a working breeder now?...spare me the "pre-programed" response of "it shows they produce dogs with the proper drives for the work- jazz".....my experince growing up with dogs tells me that UPBringing-socialization/enviornment & Training....from the age of 7-8 weeks....has more of impact on what a dog BECOMES as an adult, than whoever the Titled Sire & Titled Dam may be!

A LOT of owners and handlers don't like to "OWN" up to that though!

...I actually didn't take anything the wrong way,you WERE the first person to mention a word about the the CC's working abilities.....This thread was not even about that!I dont think it would have even went "there" (in this thread).....but you chose to take it "there"......and you were then called on it,By another Member....and still denied it:^o......I commented because you then continued your....yes, DIATRIBE is the most fitting , all the way to your latest post..............you've got a lot to learn about CC's,so lets just move on (did you EVEN RECOGNIZE the dogs I mentioned? that was early 90's late 80's)

I highlighted your many MANY mentions of _*SCHUTZHUND*_....'cuz I can tell you've been absorbing a lot over that last almost 2 years,and you want to so badly keep the topic on that....I'll humor you

I'd like to now say that I made an errorin quoting Ms.Donna DeYoung earlier!...I'm in total agreement with her analogy of driving a car with square wheels!...............It's like if you took an F1Formula car onto a NASCAR Track/race....yea it'd probably finish,but It'd definitely appear to be "clumsy" out there,wouldn't quite make the turns all that smoothly, costing precious lap time(points)....even the Pit Crew (training) equipment would have to be COMPLETELY different than the others....all these changes would need to take place, to accomodate this "other" car to allow it race on the course that is DESIGNED FOR,and works perfectly well with the regular Stock Car(German Shepherd Dog)

And that is why I then commented on your thoughts of Schutzhund (we're all at the level of knowing that it is a Breed Suitability Test for GSD)....being a UNIVERSAL test of a dogs abilities......I find this phenomenon common in many newcomers to _DOGS_.......also,The idea that people don't train in SchH because they don't are lazy or don't "understand" it......Fact is....Many dog folks,old & new,DO understand it,& thats why they don't train in it.

Think about it....it's been around what 100 yrs?....if it was such a universal way to show a dog's"well roundedness" and overall traits...after all this time..why wouldn't more DogMen/Women..accept it as such?....say's a lot to me.

Your earlier comment about "ANY dog can be trained to bite,but can he track,retrieve etc..on command?".........The answer to that would be YES.....ANY dog born with a Mouth,a Nose,and 4 legs CAN be TRAINED to do these things!....the level of proficiency would vary according to the BREED of dogs genetic blueprint...............I've seen plenty of healthy athletic black labs,mean as heck too! I'm sure most would excel at the ret/tracking portion...having high confidence,they could channel that protectiveness(that some do indeed have) into getting a calm grip on the sleeve!....heck they're even trained to have a "soft bite"..so sleeve-center-full..doesn't seem to be that much of a stretch......why aren't more Labs in SchH?....to me that's the same as asking why there aren't more CC's In SchH?

If the germans intended for SchH to be or show a universal test for all breeds...why would THEY also develop The KORUNG Test.....specifically to test the breed siutability of the German Rott?.....Boxers,Giant Schnauzers.

What do I do with my dogs?...well for one,doing Road Work on bikes is second nature to folks in the city,so my pups experience that from an early age!..you had NEVER tried it..a couple months ago,I just tried to show you how this was with my CC......and you mentioned about using an E-Colllar.....training?..well,,,I travel far & wide for good training like most,I dont stick with the same TR/Decoy more than a couple months at a time,dont like training to get stagnant/predictable.....I'll then move on to a equally adept Trainer,...but continue the same training...then try to rotate training between 3- 4 if possible.

In june,I rode out 3 hrs to the other side of the state to enter a Lure coursing event at the UKC show,rec'd a qualifying score in their Coursing aptitude Test.....couple days later...
rode out again, to enter into a Weight Pull event,successfully completed 2 RAIL PULLS and exited while it was still fun..(we're just starting in this).

In july....7/09/10 we drove from Mi. to Indiana to enter some more events at the UKC PREMIER event in Richmond,IN...............we then on 7/11/10 drove back down to IN. to successfully complete the 3rd qualifying event....and my young pup became THE FIRST FEMALE CaneCorso in the U.S.A...... to obtain an OFFICIAL Coursing Aptitude TITLE from the UKC:diva canecorso)http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=367053

Google/Wikipedia the words... "Coursing Mastiff"...tell me what breed comes up

She is also Ranked in the 80lbs.(for now,she's getting bigger) Class of The AmericanPullingAlliance...we are a loooong way from the top.....but we're a good ways from the bottom too!
(diva cane corso)http://www.weightpull.com/profile/total_points-wc.asp?wc=80

your rant about breeding is in about 100 threads already so I don't know who you think you're teaching..

I can adress the other questions and I will..

....but how often do you travel out your city to train?...ever travel out of state to trial?...I'm glad I could safely introduce you to road WORK excercise..But you do ANYTHING else with your dogs besides train in Schutzhund twice a week?


t


----------



## Tiffany Damm

Travis Ragin said:


> You'll have to re- read the comments i've posted,I attempted to be specific about what I was discussing & commenting on...already said i don't doubt what someone says they've seen...
> 
> **..Not sure I understand this statement...are you saying CC breeders haven't been around long?...or what you call working breeders?......both are CLEARLY misinformed statements.. btw.
> 
> What constitutes a working breeder? if 1 lone dog from 1 breeder gets a SchH1(YOUR only criteria for a work dog)...is that kennel a working breeder now?...spare me the "pre-programed" response of "it shows they produce dogs with the proper drives for the work- jazz".....my experince growing up with dogs tells me that UPBringing-socialization/enviornment & Training....from the age of 7-8 weeks....has more of impact on what a dog BECOMES as an adult, than whoever the Titled Sire & Titled Dam may be!
> 
> A LOT of owners and handlers don't like to "OWN" up to that though!
> 
> ...I actually didn't take anything the wrong way,you WERE the first person to mention a word about the the CC's working abilities.....This thread was not even about that!I dont think it would have even went "there" (in this thread).....but you chose to take it "there"......and you were then called on it,By another Member....and still denied it:^o......I commented because you then continued your....yes, DIATRIBE is the most fitting , all the way to your latest post..............you've got a lot to learn about CC's,so lets just move on (did you EVEN RECOGNIZE the dogs I mentioned? that was early 90's late 80's)
> 
> I highlighted your many MANY mentions of _*SCHUTZHUND*_....'cuz I can tell you've been absorbing a lot over that last almost 2 years,and you want to so badly keep the topic on that....I'll humor you
> 
> I'd like to now say that I made an errorin quoting Ms.Donna DeYoung earlier!...I'm in total agreement with her analogy of driving a car with square wheels!...............It's like if you took an F1Formula car onto a NASCAR Track/race....yea it'd probably finish,but It'd definitely appear to be "clumsy" out there,wouldn't quite make the turns all that smoothly, costing precious lap time(points)....even the Pit Crew (training) equipment would have to be COMPLETELY different than the others....all these changes would need to take place, to accomodate this "other" car to allow it race on the course that is DESIGNED FOR,and works perfectly well with the regular Stock Car(German Shepherd Dog)
> 
> And that is why I then commented on your thoughts of Schutzhund (we're all at the level of knowing that it is a Breed Suitability Test for GSD)....being a UNIVERSAL test of a dogs abilities......I find this phenomenon common in many newcomers to _DOGS_.......also,The idea that people don't train in SchH because they don't are lazy or don't "understand" it......Fact is....Many dog folks,old & new,DO understand it,& thats why they don't train in it.
> 
> Think about it....it's been around what 100 yrs?....if it was such a universal way to show a dog's"well roundedness" and overall traits...after all this time..why wouldn't more DogMen/Women..accept it as such?....say's a lot to me.
> 
> Your earlier comment about "ANY dog can be trained to bite,but can he track,retrieve etc..on command?".........The answer to that would be YES.....ANY dog born with a Mouth,a Nose,and 4 legs CAN be TRAINED to do these things!....the level of proficiency would vary according to the BREED of dogs genetic blueprint...............I've seen plenty of healthy athletic black labs,mean as heck too! I'm sure most would excel at the ret/tracking portion...having high confidence,they could channel that protectiveness(that some do indeed have) into getting a calm grip on the sleeve!....heck they're even trained to have a "soft bite"..so sleeve-center-full..doesn't seem to be that much of a stretch......why aren't more Labs in SchH?....to me that's the same as asking why there aren't more CC's In SchH?
> 
> If the germans intended for SchH to be or show a universal test for all breeds...why would THEY also develop The KORUNG Test.....specifically to test the breed siutability of the German Rott?.....Boxers,Giant Schnauzers.
> 
> What do I do with my dogs?...well for one,doing Road Work on bikes is second nature to folks in the city,so my pups experience that from an early age!..you had NEVER tried it..a couple months ago,I just tried to show you how this was with my CC......and you mentioned about using an E-Colllar.....training?..well,,,I travel far & wide for good training like most,I dont stick with the same TR/Decoy more than a couple months at a time,dont like training to get stagnant/predictable.....I'll then move on to a equally adept Trainer,...but continue the same training...then try to rotate training between 3- 4 if possible.
> 
> In june,I rode out 3 hrs to the other side of the state to enter a Lure coursing event at the UKC show,rec'd a qualifying score in their Coursing aptitude Test.....couple days later...
> rode out again, to enter into a Weight Pull event,successfully completed 2 RAIL PULLS and exited while it was still fun..(we're just starting in this).
> 
> In july....7/09/10 we drove from Mi. to Indiana to enter some more events at the UKC PREMIER event in Richmond,IN...............we then on 7/11/10 drove back down to IN. to successfully complete the 3rd qualifying event....and my young pup became THE FIRST FEMALE CaneCorso in the U.S.A...... to obtain an OFFICIAL Coursing Aptitude TITLE from the UKC:diva canecorso)http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=367053
> 
> Google/Wikipedia the words... "Coursing Mastiff"...tell me what breed comes up
> 
> She is also Ranked in the 80lbs.(for now,she's getting bigger) Class of The AmericanPullingAlliance...we are a loooong way from the top.....but we're a good ways from the bottom too!
> (diva cane corso)http://www.weightpull.com/profile/total_points-wc.asp?wc=80
> 
> your rant about breeding is in about 100 threads already so I don't know who you think you're teaching..
> 
> I can adress the other questions and I will..
> 
> ....but how often do you travel out your city to train?...ever travel out of state to trial?...I'm glad I could safely introduce you to road WORK excercise..But you do ANYTHING else with your dogs besides train in Schutzhund twice a week?
> 
> 
> t


 
Fist PUMP!!!!


----------



## Jeff Batiste

I really wasn't going to say anything, more but just a little bit more. I can't let you spread false information to people who may be new and not know any better...... So here we go.

First Off Travis or should I say "Little T" as you are known on other boards, you have little credibility if any. Everytime you post you prove how little you know, "KORUNG Testing" is not in lieu of Schutzhund *it is in addition to a Schutzhund Title!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!* A dog must be at least 2yrs old and *have a minimum of a Sch I or HGH* (Herding Title) and an AD ( 12mi endurance test) before they even will be considered to be tested. The dogs that pass, many do not, must pass with at least a G (Good) or higher clasiffied as a Korklasse (KKL) I or II; KKL I means "reccomended" for breeding and KKL 2 means "suitable" for breeding. All of the Greman Breeds can take this test including GSD's......... Plain and simple you dont know what your talking about..... 

There are plenty of working dog sports that I respect and show a dogs working abilities to name a few: PSA, Mondio, hell Agility is even fun to watch and participate in..... I still think Schutzhund is the best all around to test a dogs all around working ability, and a trainers skill; you just can't expect every breed to do it like a GSD......

To your point about Schutzhund being around for 100yrs and still not being accepted by dog men/women as such..... Really????? Name me a more popular working dog protection sport than Sch/IPO.... *YOU CAN'T!* It is the most popular protection sport with the most active members, Mondio maybe gaining in popularity but not close in the US.

I applaude your work with your dog but seriously, I can get a sight hound stray off the street with no training, put them in a Lure Coursing event and kick ass.. While I think it's cool....... What the hell does that prove about the trainability of the dog and the handlers ability as a trainer? Not a Damn Thang! 

Talk about Stock Car vs. Formula 1, putting a Molosser breed in a Coursing event against a decent sight hound and who's gonna look "clumsy"

Lastly traveling all over the country for obscure meaningless titles is not my thing, I train for Schutzhund because I can train right here in GA and get my dog all the work I need.Their are 5 Sch Clubs in Metro Atl with lots of good trainers and dogs of all breeds..... Regardless of where you title a dog in Sch other trainers recognize and respect the accomplishment because the measures are clear and scores are posted.... 

Travis keep training and enjoying your dog, I commend you for that.... But please, when grown ups are talking about *Training Working dogs*, *STFU*......


----------



## Bob Scott

"Travis keep training and enjoying your dog, I commend you for that.... But please, when grown ups are talking about *Training Working dogs*, *STFU*......"

Jeff B
This was a somewhat nice post till the last line. Personel opinions are welcome as long as they stay away for the insults, name calling, taunts, etc.
Were trying (going to) clean up the WDF insults, name calling, taunts, etc. 
Pleas keep that in mind!


----------



## Travis Ragin

Jeff

I neglected to mention Also,I'm supposed to take my dog in the woods to try some raccon & squirrel hunting.....I also have a couple folks down south who have invited me down this year to take my dog hog-hunting.

You asked what I did with my dogs....and you got an answer.
I said earlier.... that our views on what "work" is....varies greatly.](*,)



This "presa" that u have had now for less than 2 yrs.....isn't this the *first DOG YOU have ever owned*?
Some one brought these words you wrote to my attention


Start Quote:: _JeffB=MAY 2009=""_Actually this is MY FIRST DOG PERIOD, I had a dobe growing up but it was really my dads. I was looking to get a dog about 7mo.s ago, looking at Viszula's and Wiemeriener's but my best friend of mine had a litter of Presa's on the ground and he suggested I take one of his. I resisted at first because all of the info I read said that Presa's werent for the FIRST TIME OWNERS. But i agreed to foster my Dog for one month and when i got him home and started working with him there was no way i was going to give him back. 

Since I was a novice with a powerful breed I began digging into research and learning how to lay the groundwork for being a responsible owner.In the last 7mos i have learned so much about dog Physcology,Training philosophy,and dog bahavior,I think I'm a pro.. It would be good to talk with someone who is learning at the same time.....JeffB. MAY 2009""End Qoute



*So how have u been helping train k9's "for the last several yrs"..and post that ^ last year?*

After 12 or so mos.....you then found out,via THE INTERNET...that the dog you thought was a Presa Canario....was in fact, a Dogo Canario bloodline..talk about being new and not knowing any better.....seems you were misled,or were misinformed by ur best friend..
and now, in 2 yrs time, you NOW own 2 MORE powerful breeds

Hey tell me,Were you planning on "testing the all-round working ability" of the vizula and the "grey ghost" in Schutzhund,,had you bought them?....if the answer is no....how then?

Talk about wasting somebody's time LOL you SHOULD be allowed only to post in the newbie(beginner) section...IMHO.

This thread/Jeff is replying with his emotions:-({|=...I'm posting facts..the mods can lock this thread,.I'm out


t


----------



## Jeff Batiste

Travis i really hit a nerve didnt I? I never claim to have more experience than do. This is my first working dog absolutely. I dont count family pets in my experience, maybe you do thats why you are an expert on working dogs but never mention any working accomplishments.....Isn't it a shame that I have done more than you?

Not sure how long you've been "training" but it's clear you have no idea what your talking about....... Look at this post your "facts" are all wrong...... And you should quit with you're an experienced dog trainer bit it's embarrassing bro. In your case quantity of years maybe greater than mine, i dont know but the quality sucks.....Lots of people read these posts and know that the reason you float from trainer to trainer is you are a back yard trainer and cant cut it in organized competitve working dog venues, they just don't feel like calling you out.......... In my "short" time in working dogs I have been prevelieged to train with some talented trainers and learn from them, as well as participate in seminars, oh yeah and most importantly I train my dog and do legitimate venues demonstrating that my training theory works...... What about you? You still have yet to mention anything that remotely comes close to working..... I will even give you credit for a CGC? How bout it? Is their anything you have done that demonstrates any level of control work with any dog? Probably not we'll wait for the evidence, but I'm sure we will never see it....... I've got plent of footage out there can you even come close to any of it...... Not a chance... 

Face it bruh as a trainer you're a joke and you're definition of "work" is even more laughable......


----------



## Jeff Batiste

Lastly, Lil T what you should realize is that some people like myself when they mention a training method on a forum have already done their homework and have a training plan but they throw it out to share it for feedback, but also from the laughs they get when the internet experts that tell them how to do it........ Take a look at the clip below... Is that you Lil T? REALLY? You really gave me a training seminar on road work..... I rest my case..... Laughable.... Now the moderator can close the thread..... !


http://s681.photobucket.com/albums/vv177/tragin71/april2010/?action=view&current=2ndset.flv


----------



## Travis Ragin

Jeff and I spoke over the phone yesterday.Nothing is personal.We have two different views when it comes to foundation building in a dog.There is no middle ground there.

If a single lady stays in a rough part of town,and has a need for a Personal Protection dog...or someone who works long hours and needs their dog to perform sentry work in their absence,IMO they have no business going to a SchH trainer or doing SchH training in the club.................these are very different disciplines...to be recognized and trained as such.

No person has ever heard me claim to be a dog trainer.I am a dog owner....Over the years,I have wasted a lot of time and money with unscroupulus trainers,I had to learn the hard way,through experience,how to spot a "snake oil" salesman- posing as a trainer.I've come to find that quite a few have their limitations in training,but it can't be admitted,because that is turning money away.

These days,dog training (& breeding) is an even more lucrative business,so it is even harder now for people to weed through and find ones with Ethics & Honesty.I feel very strongly,that if one claims a title of "Trainer" and charges a fee for their service,they should be able to give folks the dog they are asking for,IF they cannot,it would only be RIGHT to send them to someone more capable...rather than continue to fleece the customer they have.The customer has to have the willpower to say"i,m not happy with X" and not just continue on because the "trainer" has a sleeve and a facility..so they must be EXPERTS.







Jeff Batiste said:


> Lastly, Lil T what you should realize is that some people like myself when they mention a training method on a forum have already done their homework and have a training plan but they throw it out to share it for feedback, but also from the laughs they get when the internet experts that tell them how to do it........ Take a look at the clip below... Is that you Lil T? REALLY? You really gave me a training seminar on road work..... I rest my case..... Laughable.... Now the moderator can close the thread..... !
> 
> 
> http://s681.photobucket.com/albums/vv177/tragin71/april2010/?action=view&current=2ndset.flv


........The OP was seeking advice on bike riding with their dog a large mastiff breed.....the OP was considering manufacturing and welding a beefed-up "springer" style clip ,putting a prong collar on him,and attaching the dog to the bike to go riding................I was but one,of the few folks- who said that if you have CONTROL of your dog,you should be able to hold the leash and have the dog follow along just as safely.

I then got my dog out of the house,the bike out of the garage, and demonstrated.My dog has a nylon collar on and leash,period.This is a normal regular part of exercise.Doesn't require training,but CONTROL is paramount.Tha's what this vid was,not a training seminar.

I actually don't see whats so laughable about this vid...As anyone can attest,adding a camera or video messes with everything,My GF was standing in the middle of the street taping,so when we ran full speed _past_ her...my dog was naturally pulling _toward _her(watch the dog)...that few seconds,is the only fault I see?......I safely circled around in a small area to show how we manuveur thru traffic and obstacles.I then demonstrated control by having the dog sit in the middle of the street,and riding off!.....She did not move until I gave the OK:-D.....you did not hear me utter a word,because I normally give commands quietly,so only the dog hears me.

...................look at the very end of the video,my dog will stay with me even without holding the leash...when i stopped,My dog assumed she was going to go play with the kids and chase squirrels in that park as usual....but I made her come directly back to me INSTANTLY....the sound is on,I did not yell.....you can hear me yell "CUT IT" at the end but nothing else......I absolutely have pics posted of my control work...also 1 or 2 videos posted showing control....I actually dont know how to post vids here,but this thread isn't the place for it anyway.


t


----------



## Travis Ragin

I'm starting to feel the weight of not being able to edit my post....I do understand now.

I am a dog lover so,I want to apologize to the *Leonberger+Cane Corso + The Icelandic Sheepdog*.

for my off-topic excursion.


----------



## Nick Sword

Travis Ragin said:


> I think the phrase "genetic blueprint for the work" & "that can do _THE WORK" .... _ is being thrown around in this thread as a blanket statement for ANY type of *WORK*.
> 
> 
> What exactly is German *SHEPHERD* dogs' deep-down genetic blueprint?
> 
> Or an American *BULLDOGS* deep-down genetic blueprint?
> 
> As far as molossers...Presa,CC,Bandog etc.......To say that it's not in their Genetic Blueprint,*TO NOT* bite--human or animal.(PersonalProtection-sentry work ...)..I just don't get.....They are the Original WAR DOGS.....this is 99.5% of the reason these dogs are in existence to this day.........am I mistaken?
> 
> 
> This thread (now) seems to be about.............. WORK = SCHUTZHUND or Fr.Ring ONLY?
> 
> 
> t


And just when I thought there were no true dogmen still left... I totally agree to this post. Take it from a non bias dog lover. My work dog is a Mal. My pet is a Pit bull, and my favorite type of dog are bulldogs and mastiffs. Lets be honest, yea some of the mollosser breeds are no longer being bred true to standard, and thus might not measure consistently in the dog sport arena against sheps and mals. But they weren't created for that. Most were either combatants, cattle drivers, hog dogs,etc. But all had to have the protective instinct to thwart and fight man if need be. Thus, as some say, in sport dog training, they are to defensive. Okay, so they are too serious for games. But put them around family and try and grab one of the kids and see how they measure up!

And i chuckle at the ignorance of ppl who perceive any non Caucasian who wears a hoodie, to automatically be ghetto or from the hood. And better yet, who perceive anybody who does stay or grew up in the "hood" to be automatically condemned to being a low life in society not worthy of the "enjoyments" outside of his/her "sector". Ha! Heaven forbid he/she owns a cc,or pit bull or presa,etc. Maybe i should turn in my Mal, since my childhood was gratefully spent in the "hood"! lol


----------



## Mike Jones

Nick well put my man. You are so right many people stereotype people based on where they live or grew up and as if there's something wrong with that.

However, I would have to disagree with one thing, breeding of dogs for performance. Man have for centuries selected dogs based on their temperament and ability to perform a given task, hence the variation in the breeds. 

If a breeder wanted to produce a Corso with the temperament and drive to compete in Schutzhund, then they need to select for those traits and physical characteristics that would be most conducive to the task. GSD breeders have been selectively breeding for working ability for hundreds of years and it works. 

I believe that Travis was concerned with people ignoring the overall looks of the breed for performance and I say that does not necessarily have to be the case. Type, structure and health should always be important aspects of any any breeding program. So if those Schutzhund titled Cane Corso have good type and they have the drive and ability to compete at a such a high level, then absolutely they should be breed. Not all of the pups int he litter will be able to compete but there should be one with the genetic stamp to do the work. Even in working GSD litters you have some pups more talented than others and yes the occasional dude (that's the law of averages). However, the more breeders select for certain working traits the greater the probability that those traits will show up in the puppies.

I have seen a number of Corso and some were scared of their own shadow that they were defensive fear biters and yet they were being bred. 

I guess in the end, it all about what your looking for. I would think that a dog of war and guardian of an estate would be confident and have the drive to chase a man down if the owner sent him to do so and if there are cane corso out there that can perform in a sport like Schutzhund than the DNA is there is just needs to be cultivated. 




Nick Sword said:


> And just when I thought there were no true dogmen still left... I totally agree to this post. Take it from a non bias dog lover. My work dog is a Mal. My pet is a Pit bull, and my favorite type of dog are bulldogs and mastiffs. Lets be honest, yea some of the mollosser breeds are no longer being bred true to standard, and thus might not measure consistently in the dog sport arena against sheps and mals. But they weren't created for that. Most were either combatants, cattle drivers, hog dogs,etc. But all had to have the protective instinct to thwart and fight man if need be. Thus, as some say, in sport dog training, they are to defensive. Okay, so they are too serious for games. But put them around family and try and grab one of the kids and see how they measure up!
> 
> And i chuckle at the ignorance of ppl who perceive any non Caucasian who wears a hoodie, to automatically be ghetto or from the hood. And better yet, who perceive anybody who does stay or grew up in the "hood" to be automatically condemned to being a low life in society not worthy of the "enjoyments" outside of his/her "sector". Ha! Heaven forbid he/she owns a cc,or pit bull or presa,etc. Maybe i should turn in my Mal, since my childhood was gratefully spent in the "hood"! lol


----------



## Jeff Batiste

Mike nice post . My issue with Travis and many others that own Molosser breeds in general is that they dismiss Schutzhund out of hand without really understanding it, they minimize the value of what Sch reveals about a dog and don't even know what they are talking about.... While down playing Schutzhund they go out and attempt to find less demanding, obscure venues to demonstrate the functionality and then promote thier dogs as being accomplished.... Give me a break...

From what I have read and understand Molossers, especially those of the medium to large type were typically multi-function dogs; so why wouldn't they be able to Track, Clear a 1 meter hurdle, Scale a wall, and bite a fleeing man or a man approaching making threating gestures?????? In no way is any of this outside what the function of what the dog was originally built for in my opinion... Rotties, Presas Cane Corso, AM Bulldog should be atheltic, powerful, agile and courageous dogs... They will excel in areas that Shepherds and Mal's won't... 

The problem comes in when people try to compare how they work to how a GSD or Mal works....Apples and Oranges. I am concerned with my dog performing the exercise to his best ability, if I ask him to retrieve over the wall and he does it in a deliberate, happy fashion I am pleased and we get the full 15 points. Now will he do it as fast as a Mal or a Shepherd? Maybe or maybe not, doesn't matter he did it correctly. Now that may not be as flashy or get me high in trial but if my dog performs the task correctly and I get close to full points on exercises that may be challenging for a Molosser the dog can still score well, be competitive and pass the trial... Demonstrating that he can do the work !

A good molosser doing Schutzhund to me is like a 6' 9 basketbal player that can handle the ball, shoot a jumper or post up in the paint, he may not be the best Gaurd, Forward or Center in the leauge but his versatility makes him hard to match up agianst and invaluable to the team..... Think Lebron, Magic, Chris Bosh etc. etc.. 

As far as Schutzhund,PSA or French Ring, being the only thing that is equivalent to work, never said that but I do think that protection sports are venues that allow you to really test the dogs to see if they have "Working" traits with Schutzhund being the best all around test. If were gonna talk about Molossers being dogs of War and Gaurdians etc. etc. shouldn't they do something that demonstrates that... Not sure how Lure Coursing ties back to the Dogs of War or Gaurdian aspect of the Breed but whatever..... As with most things when it comes to dogs there are 100 ways to do something or in this case, test for breed suitability but to me alot of the other "work" is one dimensional..........

Lastly to Travis not sure if you were implying that I am one of those "Snake Oil" trainers that you've learned to spot.... But first off I consider my self a trainer because I train my own dogs, I don't depend on anyone else to do that for me and the people I train with feel the same way. There are more experienced Trainers in my club/circle that give coaching and advice but most of us implement our own training program and seek help from others when we need it..... There are no fees charged in my circle of trainers only the demonstration of dedication to your goals with your dog...... 

I think that is where we have a fundamental difference, dog training is my hobby/passion and I have become a student of how to become very good at it; where you see yourself as a dog owner that goes to trainers to train your dog for you.... That explains the difference.....


----------

