# New USA video on disarming the helper



## Sarah ten Bensel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXPy9Hr_PSY

I think this is an example of variance of IPO rules from other countries and USA. Look at 4:55. Apparently it is not legal in USA rules. I looked at several 2013 BSP videos and teams were doing just that without points deducted.

I do wish the rule book would be more clear about these rules.


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## Thomas Barriano

HI Sarah

Everybody is supposed to be following the same IPO rules now. Just because one or more judges let you get away with having the decoy step back and turn around (even at the BSP or other big events) doesn't mean it's legal or that the next judge will.


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## Stefan Schaub

Thomas Barriano said:


> HI Sarah
> 
> Everybody is supposed to be following the same IPO rules now. Just because one or more judges let you get away with having the decoy step back and turn around (even at the BSP or other big events) doesn't mean it's legal or that the next judge will.


he we go again!!where in the rule book does it say how you must or can do it. maybe anne mari have a different rule book??i can not find what she is saying.would be nice if she would show the part in the rules,so every one here can read what she is saying.


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## Matt Vandart

I the sound level really low or have I gone deaf again?


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## Thomas Barriano

Stefan Schaub said:


> he we go again!!where in the rule book does it say how you must or can do it. maybe anne mari have a different rule book??i can not find what she is saying.would be nice if she would show the part in the rules,so every one here can read what she is saying.


Stefan,

Ann Marie is a UScA judge and this video was sent in an email from Jim Alloway UScA President and is official UScA policy.
Lots of things are not spelled out in any rules but are subject to interpretation. Keep doing the disarm whatever way you want.
I'm not going to risk losing anymore points then I have to and will NOT be doing the step back and turn around or directing the decoy to come to the dog/handler disarms. You or any of your students are welcome to argue the point with the next judge who takes points away


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## Stefan Schaub

Thomas Barriano said:


> Stefan,
> 
> Ann Marie is a UScA judge and this video was sent in an email from Jim Alloway UScA President and is official UScA policy.
> Lots of things are not spelled out in any rules but are subject to interpretation. Keep doing the disarm whatever way you want.
> I'm not going to risk losing anymore points then I have to and will NOT be doing the step back and turn around or directing the decoy to come to the dog/handler disarms. You or any of your students are welcome to argue the point with the next judge who takes points away


ok i will do that and if you need help to get to the point that you must disarm the helper let me know.:-\"

uhhhh Jim Alloway send the email,must i now fall on the knees and say thank you for the email.it is the same with the bark and hold!!lets see what happen on the WUSV.

if usca does it on this way they should write it in the rules and should inform all members that there was a rule change.that is normal procedure.


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## Sarah ten Bensel

For Matt Vandart, I had to put the volume up high on both the you tube and on my computer to hear it.

I am not interested in nitty gritty, however the rulebook needs to be very clear. That is my point. I emailed Ann Marie directly about this rule - her point was it demonstrates "beetter control" when the helper is facing the dog...and that the video came out of need for clarification. That said, i am quite confident in my training to disarm the helper any way. If this is the case then the judges and the rulebook need to make it clearer what is expected. The judge at my trial said NOTHING. How does that help me as a handler when such inconsistencies exist. I am not interested in losing more handler points-I am already good at doing that!!


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## Thomas Barriano

Stefan Schaub said:


> ok i will do that and if you need help to get to the point that you must disarm the helper let me know.:-\"


I've titled three different dogs in the past month alone and had no trouble with doing a disarm the proper way. Of course it wasn't at the BSP or even in Germany BUT we are living in the USA so I'll follow the rules of the UScA and/or DVG. You can write Jim and/or Ann Marie and tell them how important you are and that
you've trialed in Germany. I'm sure they'll be just as impressed with you as you seem to be with yourself


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## Shade Whitesel

But that's not the point. The point is that no where in the rules does it specify how to disarm the helper and get to side transport basic position. 
I appreciate that we are trialing in the US and need to follow our organization's rules. I really appreciate the videos so that we can see what USCA judges are looking for. 
But it is still not in the official rulebook. How many other things are not in the rulebook but are wrong and get points deducted from?


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## Britney Pelletier

Shade Whitesel said:


> But that's not the point. The point is that no where in the rules does it specify how to disarm the helper and get to side transport basic position.
> I appreciate that we are trialing in the US and need to follow our organization's rules. I really appreciate the videos so that we can see what USCA judges are looking for.
> But it is still not in the official rulebook. How many other things are not in the rulebook but are wrong and get points deducted from?


I agree with Shade!

If IPO rules are universal and the rule book is the same for everyone, then why exactly does our organization get to make it's own provisions about what you can and can't do?

It just doesn't make sense to me..


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## Stefan Schaub

Britney Pelletier said:


> I agree with Shade!
> 
> If IPO rules are universal and the rule book is the same for everyone, then why exactly does our organization get to make it's own provisions about what you can and can't do?
> 
> It just doesn't make sense to me..


It looks like it goes to the point that someone gets their finger spanked again like in the past. The rules are clear, but some people think they can do their own rules without notifying the members. Now we must wait that the rules say that the dog who's feet leave the ground during the bark and hold get a reduction in points....


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## Britney Pelletier

Stefan Schaub said:


> It looks like it goes to the point that someone gets their finger spanked again like in the past. The rules are clear, but some people think they can do their own rules without notifying the members. Now we must wait that the rules say that the dog who's feet leave the ground during the bark and hold get a reduction in points....


Won't be long, Stefan!


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## Sarah ten Bensel

Shade Whitesel said:


> But that's not the point. The point is that no where in the rules does it specify how to disarm the helper and get to side transport basic position.
> I appreciate that we are trialing in the US and need to follow our organization's rules. I really appreciate the videos so that we can see what USCA judges are looking for.
> But it is still not in the official rulebook. How many other things are not in the rulebook but are wrong and get points deducted from?


My point exactly.


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## Christopher Smith

Britney Pelletier said:


> I agree with Shade!
> 
> If IPO rules are universal and the rule book is the same for everyone, then why exactly does our organization get to make it's own provisions about what you can and can't do?
> 
> It just doesn't make sense to me..


The director of judges is who you should direct your question to. If the answer is unsatisfactory take it to the board and delegates to the AWDF. 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Thomas Barriano

Shade Whitesel said:


> But that's not the point. The point is that no where in the rules does it specify how to disarm the helper and get to side transport basic position.
> I appreciate that we are trialing in the US and need to follow our organization's rules. I really appreciate the videos so that we can see what USCA judges are looking for.
> But it is still not in the official rulebook. How many other things are not in the rulebook but are wrong and get points deducted from?



I kind of like the new flexibility in the rules for the disarm. However there is no way to allow for everything that people will think up to try. There are basic common principles for the exercise, the first (IMO) is the dog must show control and obedience. If the dog just stands there while the handler has the decoy backing up, spinning and coming to the dog. Then that isn't showing control.


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## Stefan Schaub

Thomas Barriano said:


> I kind of like the new flexibility in the rules for the disarm. However there is no way to allow for everything that people will think up to try. There are basic common principles for the exercise, the first (IMO) is the dog must show control and obedience. If the dog just stands there while the handler has the decoy backing up, spinning and coming to the dog. Then that isn't showing control.


Since when do you like flexible rules? The rules are clear! You must bring the dog in heel position to the helper and nothing else. Maybe I make a video for you how it looks in all legal positions.


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## Thomas Barriano

Stefan Schaub said:


> Since when do you like flexible rules? The rules are clear! You must bring the dog in heel position to the helper and nothing else. Maybe I make a video for you how it looks in all legal positions.


Stefan,

I wrote I like the flexibility "in the disarm" don't put words in my mouth. Ann Marie already made the video about what is legal and illegal for UScA, so you don't have to make me any video, about anything. I realize you think you are the current WDF resident expert on IPO since you're German and have been to the BSP but I've too many arrogant experts in the past and I'm not impressed. LMAO I'm not a judge so I can't take any points from anyone BUT when one of your students gets pointed for doing the disarm you taught them. You can explain to the student and argue with the judge. I bet the score doesn't get changed.


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## Joby Becker

Thomas Barriano said:


> Stefan,
> 
> I wrote I like the flexibility "in the disarm" don't put words in my mouth. Ann Marie already made the video about what is legal and illegal for UScA, so you don't have to make me any video, about anything. I realize you think you are the current WDF resident expert on IPO since you're German and have been to the BSP but I've too many arrogant experts in the past and I'm not impressed. LMAO I'm not a judge so I can't take any points from anyone BUT when one of your students gets pointed for doing the disarm you taught them. You can explain to the student and argue with the judge. I bet the score doesn't get changed.


I am not so sure that Stefan would argue with the judge...Probably shows more respect for them around his students and people in his "club". 

TD's that argue with judges and helpers are not setting a good example in my book


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## Sarah ten Bensel

How is a reader of the rulebook supposed to extrapolate all the "legal" and "illegal" positions the way it worded. The point is this : THE RULEBOOK NEEDS TO BE VERY CLEAR. Its the rulebook I bring to the field for exercise clarification not you tube videos on trial day. This is basic handler stuff not the subjectivity of all the nuances of a dog's drive state, grip, courage, etc...Basic positioning on the field. Its not rocket science for the rules to be clarified and written down .


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## Thomas Barriano

Sarah ten Bensel said:


> How is a reader of the rulebook supposed to extrapolate all the "legal" and "illegal" positions the way it worded. The point is this : THE RULEBOOK NEEDS TO BE VERY CLEAR. Its the rulebook I bring to the field for exercise clarification not you tube videos on trial day. This is basic handler stuff not the subjectivity of all the nuances of a dog's drive state, grip, courage, etc...Basic positioning on the field. Its not rocket science for the rules to be clarified and written down .


Check on the website of DVG America and UScA for updates from the LRO (for DVG) and DOJ (for UScA). There have always been explanations and clarification of the rules. There is no way to anticipate every possible nuance and keep the rule book under a thousand pages.


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## Frank Phillips

USCA is not making up it's own rules. We are trying to get clearifications of the rules from the poeple who wrote them. USCA DOJ wrote and email to FCI president Frans Jansen asking the question 
"
_1. On the side transport. We have been having some handlers ask the helper to step back and turn around for the side transport allowing them to not show as much control since they do not have to heel behind the helper to get into position. _


_At this time I have instructed the judges that this is incorrect and is a minor fault. The Helper must either remain in position or if asked only step back no more than 3 paces and *remain facing the dog* and then the dog and handler must heel to the side position for the side transport._


_Is this correct in your opinion?"_

he got the answer back From Frans:


_"In answer to your questions:_

_1. You are totaly correct. The dog ALWAYS has toward the helper."_


I'm also told (although I do not have this email) that Guenther Deigel also agreed.

We are not making things up just trying to get clearifications and follow rules written by the FCI and the WUSV.


There is no way that the rule book could include every single thing that someone might do during a trial. If it did it would be 3000 pages long.


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## Christopher Smith

Frank these are USCA's rules. They are not endorsed, ratified or certified by anyone outside of USCA. It doesn't matter if it is whispered by the holy ghost and written in blood, it's still USCA's rules. 

But don't take this as a criticism of USCA in the slightest. You guys are doing the right thing. The problem rest purely on the shoulders of the "leadership" of the AWDF. The AWDF is the organization that should be the sole rule provider of IPO rules in the US. That lack of leadership has left a void that the clubs then have to fill. 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Frank Phillips

Sorry Chris, I guess we will disagree. We are trying to follow the rules being set by the FCI and the WUSV. We asked for clearification and got it from both organizations. Thus why we are judging the way we are. We are not just "changing rules" and these are not "USCA rules" these are the interpretations being sent out by the authors of the rules, the FCI and the DOJ of WUSV.

I understand your point, but the AWDF would be getting the same answer we are if they were asking the questions. I don't believe the FCI gives different answers for different organizations.

I'm not taking your statement as critism of USCA at all, just that they are "endorced" by the FCI and the WUSV by email clearifications. I believe the USCA DOJ will be updating "our" rulebook to be clearer after the WUSV this weekend.


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## Christopher Smith

Really? The WUSV is making rules for IPO?


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## Stefan Schaub

Frank Phillips said:


> Sorry Chris, I guess we will disagree. We are trying to follow the rules being set by the FCI and the WUSV. We asked for clearification and got it from both organizations. Thus why we are judging the way we are. We are not just "changing rules" and these are not "USCA rules" these are the interpretations being sent out by the authors of the rules, the FCI and the DOJ of WUSV.
> 
> I understand your point, but the AWDF would be getting the same answer we are if they were asking the questions. I don't believe the FCI gives different answers for different organizations.
> 
> I'm not taking your statement as critism of USCA at all, just that they are "endorced" by the FCI and the WUSV by email clearifications. I believe the USCA DOJ will be updating "our" rulebook to be clearer after the WUSV this weekend.


than the rules should say it is allowed to let the helper step back up to the 3 steps and not more and it should say it is not allowed to let the helper face a different way than the direction to the dog/handler team. 

in not one word in the "right now rules" it says 1 step 2 steps 3 steps or not turning turning or what ever.it is saying the dog is to bring in heel positing to the helper. black or white or maybe gray with white spots. i have train many teams for the wusv and for the BSP and at not one event the team have get pulled points away for that. the only wrong thing right now is to let the helper step into the handler/dog position. i think all we members who pay their fees to usca and so one want it on paper in the rules.the way for that is official and must be done public.


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## Frank Phillips

Yes, the WUSV (SV) has variences to the FCI rules as it all started and is still a GSD breed suitability test. And USCA as a WUSV member also follows those variences.


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## Frank Phillips

Stefan Schaub said:


> than the rules should say it is allowed to let the helper step back up to the 3 steps and not more and it should say it is not allowed to let the helper face a different way than the direction to the dog/handler team.
> 
> in not one word in the "right now rules" it says 1 step 2 steps 3 steps or not turning turning or what ever.it is saying the dog is to bring in heel positing to the helper. black or white or maybe gray with white spots. i have train many teams for the wusv and for the BSP and at not one event the team have get pulled points away for that. the only wrong thing right now is to let the helper step into the handler/dog position. i think all we members who pay their fees to usca and so one want it on paper in the rules.the way for that is official and must be done public.


If you read my entire post you would have seen that we intend to update the USCA rule book. The DOJ is meeting with the DOJ of SV to get their input also then the rukle book will be updated.


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## Stefan Schaub

Frank Phillips said:


> If you read my entire post you would have seen that we intend to update the USCA rule book. The DOJ is meeting with the DOJ of SV to get their input also then the rukle book will be updated.


i do not care about the usca rule book.the rule is for all or not???so the "lead" that means azg (wusv+fci+vdh and and) have to change it and make it public.that means if the lead org. gives it out you can change the usca rule book

like you have write in your post, "USCA is not making up it's own rules"

so i have read your entire posts


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## Christopher Smith

Frank Phillips said:


> Yes, the WUSV (SV) has variences to the FCI rules as it all started and is still a GSD breed suitability test. And USCA as a WUSV member also follows those variences.


I'm not asking about the SV. I'm asking about the WUSV. Is the WUSV making rules for IPO?


Also, If the rules or variances of the WUSV fall in direct conflict of the rules of the AWDF which way does USCA go? Do they comply with the WUSV or AWDF?


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## Thomas Barriano

The AWDF has guest membership with FCI. They should be following the FCI rules as close as possible. AWDF should have nothing to do with writing rules except for maybe the AWD I II and III titles.


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## Stefan Schaub

Christopher Smith said:


> I'm not asking about the SV. I'm asking about the WUSV. Is the WUSV making rules for IPO?
> 
> 
> Also, If the rules or variances of the WUSV fall in direct conflict of the rules of the AWDF which way does USCA go? Do they comply with the WUSV or AWDF?


Rules get changed first in Germany,the AZG discuss things-k),all members take it then over,SV,DMC,DVG,ADRK and a few others.the wusv takes the sv rules over.

and that is the point: it says in the rules: you must bring the dog in heel position to the helper and nothing else,plus there is "der Leitfaden fuer Richter", that is a book what tells the Judge what is right and wrong,how many points each exercise and how many points you can take away for something wrong. also there is nothing what tells the judge that helper step back turn around is wrong!!!!
if now every judge can decide how he /she want have the side transport done than the rule book must say:the side transport is in order to the judges advice to do, but than the judge have to tell the handler what he want see!!!fine with me,fair for every one.would make this part more interesting,because we would see mannnnny different ways


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## Mario Fernandez

FCI makes the rules for all those countries/organization that participate in IPO..


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## Thomas Barriano

Mario Fernandez said:


> FCI makes the rules for all those countries/organization that participate in IPO..


That's the way I understood it too. The Germans (AZG VDH etc.)now longer originate the rules for Schutzhund because Schutzhund no longer exists. It's been replaced by IPO and the FCI writes the rules for IPO. The problem is the original English translation of the FCI rules SUCKED


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## Stefan Schaub

Thomas Barriano said:


> That's the way I understood it too. The Germans (AZG VDH etc.)now longer originate the rules for Schutzhund because Schutzhund no longer exists. It's been replaced by IPO and the FCI writes the rules for IPO. The problem is the original English translation of the FCI rules SUCKED


What do you mean? The name have change, nothing else!!! VPG


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## Thomas Barriano

Stefan Schaub said:


> What do you mean? The name have change, nothing else!!! VPG


There is no more Schutzhund or VPG. There is only IPO (close to Schutzhund) and the FCI writes the rules for IPO not AZG or any other German organization.


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## Stefan Schaub

Thomas Barriano said:


> There is no more Schutzhund or VPG. There is only IPO (close to Schutzhund) and the FCI writes the rules for IPO not AZG or any other German organization.[/
> 
> What is your problem your age ? Or is it because someone can read!!here is a part from the sv website. On the top is the date
> 
> Try to read !! But you will find VPG
> 
> 07/2013
> 
> Änderung der Prüfungsordnungen -
> Belastbarkeit von Hündinnen in der Zeit der frühen Trächtigkeit
> 
> Der VDH-Vorstand hat in seinen Sitzungen am 4. Januar und 30. Mai 2013 folgende Änderung der Prüfungsordnungen im Bereich Hundesport und Gebrauchshundewesen beschlossen: Eine Hündin darf ab dem 19. Tag nach dem Deckakt keine der folgenden Sportarten ausüben: Agility, VPG, FH, Obedience, Wasserarbeit, Flyball, Rettungshundearbeit, Ralley-Obedience. Dies gilt bis zur vollendeten 12. Woche nach dem Wurftag. Im Bereich Ausdauer darf ab dem Deckakt keine Belastung mehr stattfinden.
> 
> It is about females when pregnant!! Oh wow they call in Germany that thing really VPG . Man for luck I can read. Now sit down my friend relax and enjoy the experience that some people can read


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## Thomas Barriano

The SV can say what ever they want. VPG is dead, Schutzhund is dead. IPO rules. Long live IPO 

You have to say VPG because there is too much Green Party in Germany. It's still IPO and IPO rules


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## Stefan Schaub

Thomas Barriano said:


> The SV can say what ever they want. VPG is dead, Schutzhund is dead. IPO rules. Long live IPO
> 
> You have to say VPG because there is too much Green Party in Germany. It's still IPO and IPO rules


You are out of line. You should get a gsd , than on one end of the leash is some character.


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## Thomas Barriano

Stefan Schaub said:


> You are out of line. You should get a gsd , than on one end of the leash is some character.



Stefan,

Try paying attention. I have a GSD (Gwrgenau vom Himmelhoch)
I just put an IPO I (not VPG or Schutzhund anymore ) on him earlier this month when I got Flann's (Male) IPO III (not VPG or Schutzhund )
I don't stand in lines
I don't care what the SV says in any of their memos. There are no more Schutzhund or VPG titles, only IPO and the FCI writes the rules for IPO. You're just upset because the Germans (AZG VDH etc.) aren't in charge anymore and have to follow the same FCI rules as the rest of us. Go train your students how to do a proper disarm and side escort, so they can get all the points available


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## Stefan Schaub

Thomas Barriano said:


> Stefan,
> 
> Try paying attention. I have a GSD (Gwrgenau vom Himmelhoch)
> I just put an IPO I (not VPG or Schutzhund anymore ) on him earlier this month when I got Flann's (Male) IPO III (not VPG or Schutzhund )
> I don't stand in lines
> I don't care what the SV says in any of their memos. There are no more Schutzhund or VPG titles, only IPO and the FCI writes the rules for IPO. You're just upset because the Germans (AZG VDH etc.) aren't in charge anymore and have to follow the same FCI rules as the rest of us. Go train your students how to do a proper disarm and side escort, so they can get all the points available


After the rules are on paper i will do that!! 

make your homework and find out who does what and what is what. 
that is good that you have a gsd, now i like you more and more.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Are these the current FCI/IPO rules, you all are referring to? http://www.fci.be/circulaires/55-2011-annex-en.pdf


T


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## Elaine Matthys

Frank Phillips said:


> There is no way that the rule book could include every single thing that someone might do during a trial. If it did it would be 3000 pages long.


 
What a crock! Seriously, if it's not in the rule book, it's not a rule and you can't deduct points for it. I can't think of a single sport where you can get away with this sort of nonsense. Maybe you should look at an AKC rule book sometime and see how it's done.


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## Elaine Matthys

Joby Becker said:


> I am not so sure that Stefan would argue with the judge...Probably shows more respect for them around his students and people in his "club".
> 
> TD's that argue with judges and helpers are not setting a good example in my book


I don't need Stefan to argue for me. If I have a problem with a judge's ruling, I will pull out a score book and very politely ask for the judge to SHOW me in black and white the exact quote that explains their ruling. If the judge can't do so, I will file an official complaint with USCA. 

Judges can have discretion on some things that ARE in the rule book, but they can't just make things up to fit their agenda.

I would never let a judge get away with bullshit rulings just because they are a judge. The day they become omnipotent, I will reassess that position.


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## Thomas Barriano

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Are these the current FCI/IPO rules, you all are referring to? http://www.fci.be/circulaires/55-2011-annex-en.pdf
> 
> 
> T


That is an English translation of the official rules that are written in German. Problem is more IPO participants understand English and the various translation (including this one) are very poorly done.


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## Thomas Barriano

Elaine Matthys said:


> What a crock! Seriously, if it's not in the rule book, it's not a rule and you can't deduct points for it. I can't think of a single sport where you can get away with this sort of nonsense. Maybe you should look at an AKC rule book sometime and see how it's done.


AKC Obedience is simple so the rules can be simple. In IPO you're talking about three distinct phases and three different levels and that doesn't even include all the BH and FH and STP and RH etc. rules. IPO is just too complicated to anticipate every single possibility. There will always be clarification by the various organizations (DOJ and LRO) and interpretation by individual judges. Anybody that has trialed under more then one Schutzhund/IPO judge knows that each judge is different and can/will point different things.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Thomas Barriano said:


> That is an English translation of the official rules that are written in German. Problem is more IPO participants understand English and the various translation (including this one) are very poorly done.


So who speaks German and can say what the rules state verbatim? The rules state that the original German version prevails where there is question. Does anyone have a link to the original German text?

T


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## Stefan Schaub

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> So who speaks German and can say what the rules state verbatim? The rules state that the original German version prevails where there is question. Does anyone have a link to the original German text?
> 
> T


Here we go!!

http://www.airedale-kft.de/Hundesport_News/POs/IPO2012.pdf

Maybe Gillian can translate it, so Thomas can be sure that that it is right.

Es folgt ein Seitentransport des HLs zum LR über eine Distanz von etwa 20 Schritten. Ein HZ für „Fuß gehen“ ist erlaubt. Der Hund hat zwischen dem HL und dem HF zu gehen. Der Hund muss während des Transportes den HL aufmerksam beobachten. Er darf dabei jedoch den HL nicht bedrängen, anspringen oder fassen. Vor dem LR hält die Gruppe an, der HF übergibt dem LR den Softstock und meldet die Abteilung C beendet. Nach Abmeldung beim LR entfernt sich der HF auf RA mit seinem freifolgenden Hund 5 Schritte vom stehenden HL, nimmt die Gst ein, leint den Hund an und führt ihn zum Besprechungsplatz, worauf der HL auf Anweisung des LR den Platz verlässt.


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## Stefan Schaub

Joby Becker said:


> I am not so sure that Stefan would argue with the judge...Probably shows more respect for them around his students and people in his "club".
> 
> TD's that argue with judges and helpers are not setting a good example in my book


No i would not argue with the Judge,i would ask him to show me this part in the rule book. i think every one should know the rules what he trains for.How can you train if you do not know the rules, on the other hand how can you make points if judge FP take points and MW not but AS does it and AG does it not. on the end every judge take points away how he want.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Stefan Schaub said:


> Here we go!!
> 
> http://www.airedale-kft.de/Hundesport_News/POs/IPO2012.pdf
> 
> Maybe Gillian can translate it, so Thomas can be sure that that it is right.
> 
> Es folgt ein Seitentransport des HLs zum LR über eine Distanz von etwa 20 Schritten. Ein HZ für „Fuß gehen“ ist erlaubt. Der Hund hat zwischen dem HL und dem HF zu gehen. Der Hund muss während des Transportes den HL aufmerksam beobachten. Er darf dabei jedoch den HL nicht bedrängen, anspringen oder fassen. Vor dem LR hält die Gruppe an, der HF übergibt dem LR den Softstock und meldet die Abteilung C beendet. Nach Abmeldung beim LR entfernt sich der HF auf RA mit seinem freifolgenden Hund 5 Schritte vom stehenden HL, nimmt die Gst ein, leint den Hund an und führt ihn zum Besprechungsplatz, worauf der HL auf Anweisung des LR den Platz verlässt.


A side transport of the HLs follows to the LR about a distance of about 20 steps. 1 hertz for " foot go “ is permitted. The dog has to go between HL and the HF. The dog must observe HL during the transport carefully. Nevertheless, besides, he may not press HL, jump or touch. Before the LR the group stops, the HF hands over to the LR the soft floor and announces the department C finished. After notice of departure with the LR goes away to the HF on RA with his free-following dog 5 steps of standing HL, takes the Gst, leint the dog in and leads him to the discussion place on which of HL on instruction of the LR leaves the place.
__________________

http://free-translation.imtranslator.net/lowres.asp


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## Christopher Smith

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> A side transport of the HLs follows to the LR about a distance of about 20 steps. 1 hertz for " foot go “ is permitted. The dog has to go between HL and the HF. The dog must observe HL during the transport carefully. Nevertheless, besides, he may not press HL, jump or touch. Before the LR the group stops, the HF hands over to the LR the soft floor and announces the department C finished. After notice of departure with the LR goes away to the HF on RA with his free-following dog 5 steps of standing HL, takes the Gst, leint the dog in and leads him to the discussion place on which of HL on instruction of the LR leaves the place.
> __________________
> 
> http://free-translation.imtranslator.net/lowres.asp


 Okay T so what's the answer?


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Thomas Barriano

Christopher Smith said:


> Okay T so what's the answer?
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


A free internet translator must have been used to do the FCI translation?


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Thomas Barriano said:


> A free internet translator must have been used to do the FCI translation?


Can you translate it word for word?

T


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## John Anthony

Es folgt ein Seitentransport des HELFERs zum LEISTUNGSRICHTER über eine Distanz von etwa 20 Schritten. Ein HÖRZEICHEN für „Fuß gehen“ ist erlaubt. Der Hund hat zwischen dem HELFER und dem HUNDEFÜHRER zu gehen. Der Hund muss während des Transportes den HELFER aufmerksam beobachten. Er darf dabei jedoch den HELFER nicht bedrängen, anspringen oder fassen. Vor dem LEISTUNGSRICHTER hält die Gruppe an, der HUNDEFÜHRER übergibt dem LEISTUNGSRICHTER den Softstock und meldet die Abteilung C beendet. Nach Abmeldung beim LEISTUNGSRICHTER entfernt sich der HUNDEFÜHRER auf RA (Richteranweisung?) mit seinem freifolgenden Hund 5 Schritte vom stehenden HELFER, nimmt die Gst (Grundstellung? ) ein, leint den Hund an und führt ihn zum Besprechungsplatz, worauf der HELFER auf Anweisung des LEISTUNGSRICHTER den Platz verlässt.
__________________
It follows a sidetransport of the helper to the judge over a distance of approximately 20 steps. A verbal signal for „Fuß gehen“ is allowed. The dog has to walk between the helper and the dog handler. During the transport the dog has to watch the helper closely, but is not allowed to encroach, jump at or bite the handler. The group stops in front of the judge. The handler hands the judge the softstock and announces that the phase is completed. After the notice of completion by the judge, the handler distances himself 5 steps with his free heeling dog from the helper on judges instructions and pauses in basic position. The handler leashes his dog and leads him to the area for discussion/critique. At this point (end) the handler leaves the area when excused by the judge.


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## Thomas Barriano

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Can you translate it word for word?
> 
> T


What would make you think that I could or would? I could have run it through google translate too.


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## Thomas Barriano

John 

You need to do an intro before you start posting.
That's a translation of the side transport rules. The question is about the disarm before the side transport.





John Anthony said:


> Es folgt ein Seitentransport des HELFERs zum LEISTUNGSRICHTER über eine Distanz von etwa 20 Schritten. Ein HÖRZEICHEN für „Fuß gehen“ ist erlaubt. Der Hund hat zwischen dem HELFER und dem HUNDEFÜHRER zu gehen. Der Hund muss während des Transportes den HELFER aufmerksam beobachten. Er darf dabei jedoch den HELFER nicht bedrängen, anspringen oder fassen. Vor dem LEISTUNGSRICHTER hält die Gruppe an, der HUNDEFÜHRER übergibt dem LEISTUNGSRICHTER den Softstock und meldet die Abteilung C beendet. Nach Abmeldung beim LEISTUNGSRICHTER entfernt sich der HUNDEFÜHRER auf RA (Richteranweisung?) mit seinem freifolgenden Hund 5 Schritte vom stehenden HELFER, nimmt die Gst (Grundstellung? ) ein, leint den Hund an und führt ihn zum Besprechungsplatz, worauf der HELFER auf Anweisung des LEISTUNGSRICHTER den Platz verlässt.
> __________________
> It follows a sidetransport of the helper to the judge over a distance of approximately 20 steps. A verbal signal for „Fuß gehen“ is allowed. The dog has to walk between the helper and the dog handler. During the transport the dog has to watch the helper closely, but is not allowed to encroach, jump at or bite the handler. The group stops in front of the judge. The handler hands the judge the softstock and announces that the phase is completed. After the notice of completion by the judge, the handler distances himself 5 steps with his free heeling dog from the helper on judges instructions and pauses in basic position. The handler leashes his dog and leads him to the area for discussion/critique. At this point (end) the handler leaves the area when excused by the judge.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Thanks John. I think you need the section immediately before the side transport in German and where judging ends on one section. Watching the video though, I don't see how one way of doing it shows any more control than the other. What is integral to the exercise, 20 paces of transport next to the helper or how he gets there? Regardless, you turn the dog away from and into the helper so what difference does it make?

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie

English translation, page 66:

If the dog does not out after the first permitted command (HZ), the handler (HF) receives the instruction 
from the judge to give two additional commands (HZ) for the “out”. If the dog does not out after these 
commands (one permitted two additional), a disqualification will result. When giving the “out” command 
(HZ), the handler (HF) is to remain calmly in place and not influence the dog. After the release, the dog is 
to remain close to the helper and watch him attentively. At the judge’s instruction, the handler (HF) goes 
at a normal pace in the most direct way to his dog and takes him into the basic position by commanding 
“Heel/Fuss” The soft stick is taken from the helper. 

A side transport of the helper now takes place to the judge (LR) over a distance of about 20 paces. A 
command to “heel” is permitted. The dog is to go at the right side of the helper so that the dog is 
between the helper and the handler (HF). During the transport the dog is to be attentive to the helper. 
He may not however crowd the helper, jump on him or grip. The group stops in front of the judge (LR). 
The handler (HF) gives the soft stick to the judge (LR) and reports out ending phase C. At the instruction 
of the judge (LR), the handler (HF) goes with his dog on leash to a place where the critique will be given 
and the helper will receive instructions from the judge (LR) to leave the field. Prior to the critique and 
under the direction of the judge (LR), the dog is put on leash.


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## Thomas Barriano

The issue isn't what the rules say about the disarm, because they are very vague. The issue is will UScA judges allow a step back turn around disarm or not. The Ann Marie Chaffin video(approved by the UScA President?) indicates that they will not. There have been more then 56 replies (many by people who don't even compete in IPO) and the issue is still unresolved. I will do a decoy step back and heel my dog into position. Anyone else can do what ever they want.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Two sentences in German before the side transport: Auf RA geht der HF in normaler Gangart auf direktem Weg zu seinem Hund 
und nimmt ihn mit dem HZ Au für RA„ in Gst gehen“ in die Gst. Der Softstock wird dem HL abgenommen.

So for "disarming" all you have is 'the soft stick is taken from the HL?' Maybe John can translate after his bio. Doesn't seem like a translation issue at all. More like rule additions--which has been said.


T


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## James Downey

Thomas Barriano said:


> The issue isn't what the rules say about the disarm, because they are very vague. The issue is will UScA judges allow a step back turn around disarm or not. The Ann Marie Chaffin video(approved by the UScA President?) indicates that they will not. There have been more then 56 replies (many by people who don't even compete in IPO) and the issue is still unresolved. I will do a decoy step back and heel my dog into position. Anyone else can do what ever they want.


I wish we would just start worrying about how the dog does protection work.


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## Mario Fernandez

well said james...


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## Thomas Barriano

James Downey said:


> I wish we would just start worrying about how the dog does protection work.


I wish I had the winning Powerball/Mega Millions ticket.
The reality is that neither is likely to happen. Protection now isn't about power it's about control and precision. The most powerful dog in the world will never be on the podium if the outs are slow and he bothers the helper or forges on the back transport.


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## jamie lind

Thomas Barriano said:


> I wish I had the winning Powerball/Mega Millions ticket.
> The reality is that neither is likely to happen. Protection now isn't about power it's about control and precision. The most powerful dog in the world will never be on the podium if the outs are slow and he bothers the helper or forges on the back transport.


That is a problem with people not knowing how to train a powerful dog. Too many videos out there made for a different knid of dog.

Thomas- what would you do if a judge pointed you for the way you did it and said the correct way was the other way? Teach what the judge says is the correct way or tell them they are full of shit?


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## Thomas Barriano

Jamie,

I don't change my training for one judge. I train according to how I interpret the rules and how the UScA DOJ or DVG LRO interprets the rules. When an email comes from the UScA President with videos saying "this is how the disarm should be done". I wouldn't continue to train a disarm that is "faulty".
There are also a lot more people that think they know how to train
a powerful dog then actually do


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## jamie lind

Thomas Barriano said:


> Jamie,
> 
> I don't change my training for one judge. I train according to how I interpret the rules and how the UScA DOJ or DVG LRO interprets the rules. When an email comes from the UScA President with videos saying "this is how the disarm should be done". I wouldn't continue to train a disarm that is "faulty".
> There are also a lot more people that think they know how to train
> a powerful dog then actually do


So if the broncos make their own rules. Where does that leave its players at the superbowl?


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## Thomas Barriano

jamie lind said:


> So if the broncos make their own rules. Where does that leave its players at the superbowl?


We're talking about the DOJ/LRO interpreting rules not competitors making up rules.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Maybe USCA members don't trial outside of USCA and the leadership has carte blanche to do as they want without any input from the membership.
But then again, maybe the membership doesn't care to have input and just follow along with whatever comes from the top.

T


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## Thomas Barriano

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Maybe USCA members don't trial outside of USCA and the leadership has carte blanche to do as they want without any input from the membership.
> But then again, maybe the membership doesn't care to have input and just follow along with whatever comes from the top.
> 
> T


Terrasita,

That is obviously written my someone with minimal IPO trialing experience. Most IPO trials in the US are under UScA Judges.
When I asked two DVG Judges about a step back turn around disarm. They both said it was faulty. I would expect clarification by Ray Reid LRO in the near future. Facts are the only reason there hasn't been clarification sooner is that there are very few people in the US who do that kind of disarm.


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## Christopher Smith

T they do trial outside of USCA and many don't understand that what they are doing is different from what the FCI rules say. Then they get pissed off and blame their diminished results on the organization that is following the FCI rules as written.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Thomas Barriano said:


> Terrasita,
> 
> That is obviously written my someone with minimal IPO trialing experience. Most IPO trials in the US are under UScA Judges.
> When I asked two DVG Judges about a step back turn around disarm. They both said it was faulty. I would expect clarification by Ray Reid LRO in the near future. Facts are the only reason there hasn't been clarification sooner is that there are very few people in the US who do that kind of disarm.


Or perhaps I was thinking in terms of the super bowl analogy.

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Christopher Smith said:


> T they do trial outside of USCA and many don't understand that what they are doing is different from what the FCI rules say. Then they get pissed off and blame their diminished results on the organization that is following the FCI rules as written.


I think JD is right. The whole thing seems petty. The step back turn around is a smoother transition with better flow. Watching the videos, from the handler point I view, I find I find the USCA way awkward. 

T


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## Thomas Barriano

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I think JD is right. The whole thing seems petty. The step back turn around is a smoother transition with better flow. Watching the videos, from the handler point I view, I find I find the USCA way awkward.
> 
> T


IPO is a test of the dog/handler and their training, not how well the decoy can follow directions. The UScA way(s) may look awkward but it shows the dogs control and obedience better.


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## Katie Finlay

I think the point is that it's an international sport that has one set of international rules that everyone needs to follow. U.S. Soccer doesn't go slightly changing miscellaneous rules that FIFA has put in place. The fact that they shouldn't be able to is beside the point. They shouldn't WANT to. All it leads to is confusion and animosity.


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## Thomas Barriano

Katie Finlay said:


> I think the point is that it's an international sport that has one set of international rules that everyone needs to follow. U.S. Soccer doesn't go slightly changing miscellaneous rules that FIFA has put in place. The fact that they shouldn't be able to is beside the point. They shouldn't WANT to. All it leads to is confusion and animosity.


You can't follow vague rules. All you can do is interpret to the best of your ability and clarify as an organization and use some common sense. The rules don't say you can't do a disarm by hopping on one leg and spinning around. That doesn't mean that you should.


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## jamie lind

Thomas Barriano said:


> You can't follow vague rules. All you can do is interpret to the best of your ability and clarify as an organization and use some common sense. The rules don't say you can't do a disarm by hopping on one leg and spinning around. That doesn't mean that you should.


That sounds like an interesting way to do it. If I tr ity would you like me to call it the "barriano"? And must it be performed while wearing a funny hat?


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## Thomas Barriano

jamie lind said:


> That sounds like an interesting way to do it. If I tr ity would you like me to call it the "barriano"? And must it be performed while wearing a funny hat?


NOPE, only I can do the "barriano" since only I own the "hat".
You can create your own version and call it the "Lindy Hop"
Here are some idea to get you started
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBdAuXr4ssQ


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Thomas Barriano said:


> IPO is a test of the dog/handler and their training, not how well the decoy can follow directions. The UScA way(s) may look awkward but it shows the dogs control and obedience better.


How?

T


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## Thomas Barriano

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> How?
> 
> T



Really??
Look at the examples in the video in the OP. The dog are heeling, turning, backing up, pivoting etc getting into position next to the helper as opposed to sitting still while the decoy does all the work.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Thomas Barriano said:


> Really??
> Look at the examples in the video in the OP. The dog are heeling, turning, backing up, pivoting etc getting into position next to the helper as opposed to sitting still while the decoy does all the work.



Then have a heeling around the decoy exercise which is what the transport takes care of anyway. The dog has already shown control portions. If you step back and turn around, he is still heeling up to and getting in position with respect to the decoy. He has still demonstrated his ability to turn off and the obedience. But if you want to count footsteps and turns, okay.

T


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## Thomas Barriano

T

This is getting silly and unproductive. I'll train for the rules and the way they are interpreted by UScA and DVG.


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## Joby Becker

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Then have a heeling around the decoy exercise which is what the transport takes care of anyway. The dog has already shown control portions. If you step back and turn around, he is still heeling up to and getting in position with respect to the decoy. He has still demonstrated his ability to turn off and the obedience. But if you want to count footsteps and turns, okay.
> 
> T


control is often a fluid thing


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## James Downey

Thomas Barriano said:


> IPO is a test of the dog/handler and their training, not how well the decoy can follow directions. The UScA way(s) may look awkward but it shows the dogs control and obedience better.


Not according to UScA and their "Videos" they specifically state that IPO is not a Sport or a test of training, it is a Breeding suitablity test and nothing more. And I don't know anyone who breeds to the dog with the best heel into the side transport.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Joby Becker said:


> control is often a fluid thing


especially for the ones that could care less about the actual work--poetry in motion.

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Joby Becker said:


> control is often a fluid thing


especially for the ones that don't care about the work anyway--poetry in motion.

T


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## James Downey

Thomas Barriano said:


> I wish I had the winning Powerball/Mega Millions ticket.
> The reality is that neither is likely to happen. Protection now isn't about power it's about control and precision. The most powerful dog in the world will never be on the podium if the outs are slow and he bothers the helper or forges on the back transport.


First, this is not entriely true. 

1. This years FCI winner was neither powerful or correct.
2. I have been on a podium with a powerful dog that was more incorrect than the other dogs. There are judges floating around who judge protection work and not stupid shit like how you heel into the side transport. The fact that this is even an issue is retarded. 
3. It's not a "vague" rule. Vague would mean there is mention of it. There is nothing. it goes from disarming, skips the transistion to take the side transport position and goes right into the transport. It does not even mention the transistion from one position to the next. 
4. I think we should demand one set of rules. I am fine if they don't want to allow this. But state what is permissible and what is not. It can be done. A person new to the sport should be able to pick up the rule book and know exactly what each exercise is expected to look like. Right now, You cannot do that. 
5. The rules being discussed in the last years are bullshit. Saying "go on" out of the escape? Side transport Set up? 

WTF>


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## James Downey

Here's one for everyone. Is an automatic out a point deduction? 

The rule book says it's not.


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## Frank Phillips

James Downey said:


> Here's one for everyone. Is an automatic out a point deduction?
> 
> The rule book says it's not.


It's not...but a too early out is...

And, FYI for everyone. It was announced at the WUSV Team meetings before the event that the helper must stay facing the dog and can not be repositioned to face away from the dog or to the judge.


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## Keith Jenkins

In the infamous words of Sheldon Copper.....


BAZINGA!!!!


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