# Friend's DS/GSD puppies



## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

I've been puppy sitting Tim Welch's litter for the last 2 weeks. They are cute and playful. The sire is a Czech line GSD and the dam is "Ginger" his FRI Dutchie. 

We tied them out for the first time yesterday at training and they took it well.

9 weeks old in the pixs. I was trying to think of a cute name for them because they are a "designer working dog" cross between GSD x DS, but haven't had any luck. So I guess they are Welch Shepherds!


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## Denise Gatlin (Dec 28, 2009)

Let me know what name you come up with because I too have two 13 week old Dutch/German cross pups. Very nice thus far.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Denise Gatlin said:


> Let me know what name you come up with because I too have two 13 week old Dutch/German cross pups. Very nice thus far.


Share some pixs, please! :-D


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## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

handsome pups!


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Rhine(rijn) Shepherds--Used by shepherds that would graze their sheep along the banks of the Rhine river in days long gone. A few have been found and this rare breed has been saved. priced at 3500 dollars a pup. (just send me 20 percent share of the profits)


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Pictures at about 8 weeks old.


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## Denise Gatlin (Dec 28, 2009)

Debbie Skinner said:


> Share some pixs, please! :-D


As soon as I get back home (at work now) I will download pics of the two pups playing in Louisiana sneaux, with really funny ear thing going on, from a couple weeks ago. And post a couple of them now. So, come up with a name yet? Welsh Sheps? Rhine Sheps? Doesnt matter as my two will be altered. Am very intrigued with this combo. Interesting to watch their personality traits progress some both of the GSD and DS. Driven, inquisitive, intuitive, fast learners, very 'biddable' (like that word now that I truly know what it means. These are just babes so we will see what transpires. Will be very interested in their health aspects as adults as well.


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## Denise Gatlin (Dec 28, 2009)

Durmans or Gertchs......


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

will fernandez said:


> Rhine(rijn) Shepherds--Used by shepherds that would graze their sheep along the banks of the Rhine river in days long gone. A few have been found and this rare breed has been saved. priced at 3500 dollars a pup. (just send me 20 percent share of the profits)


Good one! I'll tell Tim that he could market them that way - cha-ching!! :-D


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

I have bred two litters of DS X GSD crosses. It is an interesting cross.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

mike suttle said:


> I have bred two litters of DS X GSD crosses. It is an interesting cross.


Do you have photos of them as adults? Were they slower to mature than a typical Malinois litter? I see these guys as being very stable, but slower developing than my mals and calmer at 9 weeks old than my malinois. I have no experience with DS pups either. These guys have been fun to play around with.


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## Greg Whelehan (Dec 1, 2008)

mike suttle said:


> I have bred two litters of DS X GSD crosses. It is an interesting cross.


Mike:
What is your thoughts on this? How did the pups compare to other litters? Have you seen any of them as adult dogs now?


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Greg Whelehan said:


> Mike:
> What is your thoughts on this? How did the pups compare to other litters? Have you seen any of them as adult dogs now?


Ah the ghost appears ( sarcasm ), figured I say whats up greg. Am curious myself to how they turned out. Knew a guy in NC that bred a litter of this cross and the ones I saw were no where as impressive as pure DS litters. Have seen one as a adult that the guy says was awesome and was more like complete crapper. Not saying that the litter that Debbie is talking about here won't be awesome but my experience of them is what I just wrote above.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

The first litter is now about 2 years old, the second litter is about 18 months old. There were very good puppies in both litters, and some very flat ones. there were not many in between. I kept a female that looked just like a GSD and she was really super. She was actually sold to a GSD breeder recently. I also kept a male who looked like a brindle GSD and sold him to US Customs. I just got an e mail from a K-9 handler who got one as a puppy and he loves him, he is now a dual purpose dog in Denver. 
One of the puppies from that combination ended up with a bad hip, another one died from a heart condition. Overall I did not consider the breedings to be great so I did not repeat them. But there were some very nice dogs produced from those two litters. 
They are different from the Mali X Dutchie litters that we have here for sure. They matured a little slowly and were a little less drivey than what I would like.
I have imported a few GSD X Dutchie crosses from Holland that worked pretty good, and one that would retrieve anything, had great nerves, and could track great, but was not great at bitework.
I think with any total outcross you will get puppies from both ends of the spectrum and not a real consistant litter. But to take one of the really great puppies from that cross and breed it back to a GSD would no doubt improve the GSD in my opinion.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Ive said it before and I'll say it again. The GSD has NOTHING to offer the Dutch Shepherd other than bad hips and elbows, lower drive, slower entries and goofy expressions.....lol\\/


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Christopher Jones said:


> Ive said it before and I'll say it again. The GSD has NOTHING to offer the Dutch Shepherd other than bad hips and elbows, lower drive, slower entries and goofy expressions.....lol\\/


There are some things that I like better about the GSD. Not many things, but a couple. Those things could improve the DS/Mali a little. For example:
1) tracking ability
2) trainability
3)grip 
4)head and bone size, and teeth size


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Apparently you haven't seen the head and teeth of the DS on my USAR team. Damn thing has a huge head - like a platter. We could serve lunch on the top of that dog's head!


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Konnie Hein said:


> Apparently you haven't seen the head and teeth of the DS on my USAR team. Damn thing has a huge head - like a platter. We could serve lunch on the top of that dog's head!


 of course he does, that is because almost all DS have a few other breeds thrown in to make those heads and teeth. Mine all have huge heads and big teeth too but I also know they are not 100% DS.:razz:. This was my whole point.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Blasphemy! :razz:


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> There are some things that I like better about the GSD. Not many things, but a couple. Those things could improve the DS/Mali a little. For example:
> 1) tracking ability
> 2) trainability
> 3)grip
> 4)head and bone size, and teeth size


1 Maybe IPO footstep tracking but real world police dog tracking Malis/DS clean up.
2 Yep, for sure. However that trainablity comes with too big a drop in drive and hardness for mine. 
3 Yeah, natural calm IPO grip for sure.
4 I can show you 72 cm tall, 52 kg Malis and Dutchies that run fatser, hit harder than GSD's and whos bodies dont fall apart at 6 years of age like alot of GSD's. My Czech male GSD does have some crazy big canines tho....


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## Steve Pinder (Feb 5, 2010)

they are looking really nice and cute, i would love to have such dogs, but i have never found one like that till now


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## leih merigian (Aug 8, 2008)

Mike,

Would you please expand on the trainability differences between the GSD and DS? Are you referring to the, "GSD tends to be more forgiving of unfair corrections" thing, or something else?

thanks,
leih


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Christopher Jones said:


> 1 Maybe IPO footstep tracking but real world police dog tracking Malis/DS clean up.
> 2 Yep, for sure. However that trainablity comes with too big a drop in drive and hardness for mine.
> 3 Yeah, natural calm IPO grip for sure.
> 4 I can show you 72 cm tall, 52 kg Malis and Dutchies that run fatser, hit harder than GSD's and whos bodies dont fall apart at 6 years of age like alot of GSD's. My Czech male GSD does have some crazy big canines tho....


1) Tracking in general is better with a GSD. Footstep tracking or not. Or at least with all the dogs we bring in the GSDs track better on average with the same amount of training as the Malis.
2)by trainability I do not mean being easy to handle and lower in drive. Believe it or not some of the GSDs we bring in have just as much drive as the Malis, but they are also easier to train and they retain things better for sure.
3)by grip I meant gripping pressure. Now I will say that Endor was one of the hardest biting dogs I ever worked. But again if I look at the top 10 GSDs that I have imported compared to the top 10 Malis the GSDs bite harder on average.
4)trust me Chris, I have plenty examples of huge malis and dutchies here that are wrecking machines down the field, I dont dispute that at all. But I was simply talking about head size, bone mass, and teeth size. By the way, do you think the 52kg, 72cm Malis are 100% Mali? :?: How do you suppose they got that size? One of the biggest and hardest biting DS that I know of has a little GSD on his mothers side. In this particular dog that was fact was not hidden on his bloodlines. In many other very large, hard biting DS I also know form the breeders that there is GSD in the background, but it is not made public.
Lets not forget that the ols school Dutch guys use what works, and often times that means using a small % of GSD. (along with other breeds if they see fit)
For sure a 50 /50 GSD X Mali will usually not give what you and I like to see. But I have seen too many 1/8 GSD X 7/8 Mali combinations that were outstanding to discredit its value.

In all 4 areas that I stated I was not using one dog as an example, I like to take a look back at the end of the day (or several years) and look at all of the dogs that I have imported, or raised, or bought here in the USA, or even worked and trained who were owned by other people. 
I look at all of those dogs and here is what I see: on AVERAGE (again, not using only one dog in this "study"), on AVERAGE the GSD's track better, they are easier to train meaning that it takes less time and they remember shit better, they bite harder, and they habe bigger heads, heavier bones, and much larger teeth.
Now those are 4 things that I like better about GSDs, I would need another page to list all the things that I like better about Malis and Dutchies.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Denise Gatlin said:


> Durmans or Gertchs......


The little Durmans/Gertches/Rhine or Welch Shepherds..

They are going back home with Tim today. They have been fun. My two favorites of the bunch are 2 sable females even though the brindles are more striking. Both are females (Lavender collar and pink collar) which are the ones in most of the bite photos.


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## Denise Gatlin (Dec 28, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> There are some things that I like better about the GSD. Not many things, but a couple. Those things could improve the DS/Mali a little. For example:
> 1) tracking ability
> 2) trainability
> 3)grip
> 4)head and bone size, and teeth size


Mike, my sentiments exactly with #1 and #2. I could care less about grip because my two DS/GSD cross pups only need those first two for their intended purpose in scent detection. I already have 2 other adults trained in bitework. We are venturing in a different, more mentally challenging and scientific venue, thus utilizing those superb olfactory receptors God gave 'em! All the while making positive contribution to our community. So, let the flailing begin! I can handle it. :lol:


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## Denise Gatlin (Dec 28, 2009)

Denise Gatlin said:


> So, let the flailing begin! I can handle it. :lol:


Oops, Mike, this statement was NOT intended as an afront for you as you come across as 'friendly fire,' vastly knowledgeable, and open minded.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> 1) Tracking in general is better with a GSD. Footstep tracking or not. Or at least with all the dogs we bring in the GSDs track better on average with the same amount of training as the Malis.


This is a very interesting discussion point actually. I was of the opinion like you Mike that yes the GSD was a better more focused tracker than the Mali/DS. 
I spoke to Rob Luijken (Tommys owner) about this GSD tracking v's Mali/DS tracking. Rob is a Police dog trainer handler in Holland and buys dogs for his department. He also is one of the main trainers of drug/bomb police dogs in his area. This is a guy who knows what he is talking about with Police dogs in Holland, and a really nice guy as well. I put to him that GSD's were better tracking dogs than Malis/DS. His comments back was very deffinate. He said that without a doubt in real world police suspect tracking, Malis were better than the GSD's. I cant remember all the reasons he gave as it was a telephone conversation about 6 years ago. He said something about them missing stuff because their ability to pick things up on the perifial was not very good. Cant remember exactly. I could ring him and ask him again. He also said this was the view of most of his department. Maybe Dick could put his experiances forward about it.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Christopher Jones said:


> This is a very interesting discussion point actually. I was of the opinion like you Mike that yes the GSD was a better more focused tracker than the Mali/DS.
> I spoke to Rob Luijken (Tommys owner) about this GSD tracking v's Mali/DS tracking. Rob is a Police dog trainer handler in Holland and buys dogs for his department. He also is one of the main trainers of drug/bomb police dogs in his area. This is a guy who knows what he is talking about with Police dogs in Holland, and a really nice guy as well. I put to him that GSD's were better tracking dogs than Malis/DS. His comments back was very deffinate. He said that without a doubt in real world police suspect tracking, Malis were better than the GSD's. I cant remember all the reasons he gave as it was a telephone conversation about 6 years ago. He said something about them missing stuff because their ability to pick things up on the perifial was not very good. Cant remember exactly. I could ring him and ask him again. He also said this was the view of most of his department. Maybe Dick could put his experiances forward about it.


 
Chris, are you talking tracking or trailing? As most police departments don't care if the dog cheats, his nose is down etc, they want him to find the person as fast as possible. Where sport tracking is nose down hitting everything?

Just a question to find out more particular as to why some thinks the GSD or the Mali is a better tracker.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Jody Butler said:


> Chris, are you talking tracking or trailing? As most police departments don't care if the dog cheats, his nose is down etc, they want him to find the person as fast as possible. Where sport tracking is nose down hitting everything?
> 
> Just a question to find out more particular as to why some thinks the GSD or the Mali is a better tracker.


I think that GSD' are easier to train in IPO footstep tracking, I was refering to suspect tracking or trailing.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Christopher Jones said:


> I think that GSD' are easier to train in IPO footstep tracking, I was refering to suspect tracking or trailing.


 
OK, totally agree!


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## Steve Pinder (Feb 5, 2010)

that are really nice pics, they are really cute pups.
i hope there training is going well..


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## John Haudenshield (Sep 18, 2006)

Debbie Skinner said:


> Do you have photos of them as adults? Were they slower to mature than a typical Malinois litter? I see these guys as being very stable, but slower developing than my mals and calmer at 9 weeks old than my malinois. I have no experience with DS pups either. These guys have been fun to play around with.


Here is our adult DS x GSD. 

Father's Pedigree BRN 6046.
Dam Pedigree: http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/53034/Czara vom Jagarhaus/


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## Dennis Jones (Oct 21, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> I have bred two litters of DS X GSD crosses. It is an interesting cross.


 
How would you price them? are you planning on anymore? You put any of them in a pet home?


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

John Haudenshield said:


> Here is our adult DS x GSD.
> 
> Father's Pedigree BRN 6046.
> Dam Pedigree: http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/53034/Czara vom Jagarhaus/


Thanks for posting the photo.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Dennis Jones said:


> How would you price them? are you planning on anymore? You put any of them in a pet home?


I dont think I will do that combinatin any more. it is not consistant enough for me. The price was the same as our other litters. There are a couple of them in pet homes and doing fine. There are a couple working good as dual purpose police dogs as well, but overall I was not happy with the litters.
This is not to say that some DS X GSD crosses are not great, I have seen some very nice ones.


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## Dennis Jones (Oct 21, 2009)

thanks Mike


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