# Dutchie hesitating on bite



## frank guios (Apr 21, 2012)

I have a nine month old dutchie, grandson of Ruddie II. He is hesitant to initially bite on the sleeve. I feel it is my fault for over correcting him after coming up leash twice. Does anyone have any advice to build him back up? Once I work with him a while he progresses and gives full hard bites, but when I have another training session he hesitates. When I say hesitate, I mean he looks at me after the send almost asking for permission. I will try to upload a video soon.


----------



## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

my dog did something similar at that age, first bite would be soft, then she would bite hard. it may just be a young dog, or maybe something I did wrong, but anyway, it doesn't happen now and hasn't for a long time


----------



## frank guios (Apr 21, 2012)

Did you just ignore the behavior and work through it or did you apply any special techniques?


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

If you're still living in Holland? Find a local club with experienced handlers/trainers and get some first hand advise.


----------



## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

Can u post a video?

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

are you working the dog yourself? or with a decoy type?


----------



## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Get some target training done. Learn him the rules then the conflict will disappear.


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

frank ...
of course you'll get "advice", but do you really expect to get GOOD advice based on that short post ?

you mentioned "coming up a leash twice" but didn't explain how or when it happened, or whether it was at the same time or different times, etc ... i WILL say if it repeats it usually indicates you need to rearrange the relationship with your dog before you proceed with further bite work ... 

"looking towards you" can also be a result of a variety of conditioning

anyway, lots of advice you will get will probably help you or anyone ... regardless of whether it ties into your problems or not
- better targeting, join a club, etc etc
... but if you want to try and specifically connect the dots between the two behaviors you wrote, i think you need to supply more dots 

but when you get more questions than answers, it might mean something is lacking in your original post ??


----------



## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

rick smith said:


> frank ...
> of course you'll get "advice", but do you really expect to get GOOD advice based on that short post ?
> 
> you mentioned "coming up a leash twice" but didn't explain how or when it happened, or whether it was at the same time or different times, etc ... i WILL say if it repeats it usually indicates you need to rearrange the relationship with your dog before you proceed with further bite work ...
> ...


Always when I read something like this I think that there has to be more to it than what the OP mentioned when he wrote. "The dog is 9 months old and has been corrected for coming up the leash twice" When did that happen when the dog was 12 weeks old 6 months old what? What were the circumstances, why would the OP think that was a turning point for the pup? Must've been a good arse kicking to make things go so black and white for the pup. To me a 9 month old pup doesn't have the mental capacity to understand coming up the leash and then to be heavily corrected for it. (no one knows how hard except the OP) Who cares if it is a grandson of Ruddie II, a puppy is just that. Most Dutch pups I've seen mature a lot slower in their heads than say Malinois so even if a pup has a grown up body they are still young in their heads.

A puppy that bites a handler there is many reasons, circumstances and situations. But why people overreact and over correct always amazes me, when all that needs to be done is manage the puppy. To me it's a classic case of someone on the way to ruining a decent puppy by putting way to much pressure through unfair correction, or correction that the animal doesn't understand and outside of that way to much OB. 

It's good that the OP recognizes his error hopefully others will read and if ever in the same situation judge themselves accordingly. 

As for building the pup at 9 months old it isn't to late. To me it all has to be done through play. Big misconception is to many squish their puppy's like bugs with OB, correction and break the pups spirit.

Let the pup be wild, let the pup bite, let the pup chase. Manage the pup yes. Just use a tug, ball, crate and a bait bag. Not a leash and collar, outside of just guiding the pup with the leash.

Everything should be fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun, if it isn't ... if you forget about fun Frank, you and this pup are screwed as a working team. 

There is so many other things in raising a working puppy. One thing is 'NOT' breaking the confidence and trust of the pup in you as a handler and building a working bond with it. To me Frank you need to take a few steps back and do just that. Hopefully with the guidance of a good club or training director. 

You know every one wants the perfect puppy so they over train and over control because they think that is the only way, or they are just in a big rush. Many just do that, as well as put way to much spirit crushing obedience. In my opinion everything should be a game and all the OB should be shaped and lured with food as a general picture, in a playful way. 

Even tugging and bite work should be done in a playful way too. How many youtube videos have we seen with a 3-4 month old pup hanging for dear life to a bite rag while their handler lays the bamboo to the pup? Sure give the pup credit to hang on but where are these pups when they are 2-3 years old? They are in a kennel somewhere spinning like a neurotic fly .. broken.

Don't be that guy!!


----------



## frank guios (Apr 21, 2012)

I just recently joined a club but there are some language issues, the guys at the club say it's good or its ok, I know I will get over this obstacle. I was just wondering if there are any of you that had the same problem and what techniques you used to over come it. He came up leash on me twice at about 4 months because he did not like it when his choker was repositioned high on the neck and received a correction. The first time I kind of over looked it thinking he is just a pup, but the second time was different he actually got a got full bite on the hand and was very agressive and dominant. I grabbbed him and choked him until he came off the bite yelling no and not letting go until he calmed down and realized who was in charge. I have since had no issues with him. I would post a video but I'm currently stateside for training.


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

otoh .... maybe you're still not in charge ....

so, no comment on any specifics of what i or Geoff had to say ????
at least from what you added it seems like handler induced aggression rather than redirected bites, which was what i was hoping it was

last post from me ... try putting one hand over one ear when someone is talking to you 

but if you and the dog are both strong enuff, maybe your handling won't matter and he will end up just the way you want him to ... choke slammin and pinning a 4 month pup doesn't show a lot of finesse ...imo

anyway, good luck with your dog ...


----------



## frank guios (Apr 21, 2012)

Thanks Geoff, but you kind of made it sound like I was abusing my dog, which is not the case. On the same note you gave some really good advice which is exactly what I was looking for so thank you. First he is a family pet that comes into contact with other children, adults and other animals. So there is no room in the house for a dog that turns on people no mater what was done to him. If I can keep training him in knvp fine if not thats ok too, he is a great loving dog that just needed to learn his boundries, now yes I realize things should have been done differently and not as harsh. We are both moving on and learning from each other everyday. I have just been tugging and playing with him really taken a step back from training and just letting him enjoy life, I have no doubt that he will learn to overcome this hesitation hes has on the bite. The last thing I would want would be to ruin a great dog.


----------



## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

Geoff Empey said:


> Everything should be fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun, if it isn't ... if you forget about fun Frank, you and this pup are screwed as a working team.


Yup


----------



## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

frank guios said:


> The last thing I would want would be to ruin a great dog.


Hi Frank, 

Sorry if you think that I was making it sound like you were abusing your pup. Far from it, yourself mentioned that you may have made a mistake in correcting him when the alleged up the leash incidents took place. It is easy to over correct, trust me I know. It is easy to make those mistakes. We all learn from those mistakes, it isn't a bad thing. No one wants to ruin a potentially good dog for sure both you and me included. 

I think it is a great idea is to just let him be a puppy. 8-9 months old is a good time to start to get more serious in the training, but if you did make some mistakes you can still take a few steps back and rebuild the pup's confidence in you through play. 

I have a family too, with younger kids and the assorted friends that come over. Both my dogs earned the privilege to be loose in the house with the family. The older dog she was 3 before I thought she could be loose in the house, the younger one he was 2. The rest of the time they were either in the kennel, or crate, or with me training/exercising. To me they are working/sport dogs first and pets second. When you are training the young dog for sport or work and you do have family in your house. It is best to keep them separate in the crate until the dog matures in it's head. Just so to avoid anything bad happening to the dog, your property and your family. My dogs are perfect in the house now but that privilege was earned, not just thrust upon them. 

I wish you good success with your pup!


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

VERY good advice Geoff !

my current house dog probably went at least 6-7 months b4 he ever earned the right to be off lead inside our home/business (real pita during that time but well worth it)
we have five house cats and he had two cat kills b4 i got him :-( 
... but our cats have seen many dogs come/go
... and we have little kids in/out every day

my wife said it would "NEVER happen" 
... for a long time he was not even allowed to LOOK at the cats ... took awhile but he learned very well kids and cats are GODS and he is a mere ..... mortal dog //lol// 

they will all curl up and sleep together now, and he learned the cats own the house, but he is still a happy, laid back dog in our house
... hard to resist the temptation sometimes, but it makes it soo much easier when a dog is never allowed to play inside ... it is one big kennel for him even tho the cats can climb the walls whenever they choose to //lol//


----------



## frank guios (Apr 21, 2012)

Thanks for the great advice from everyone, as soon as I get home from training I will up load video to better show the issue. I truly think the only limitations on him are handler related. I look forward to learning from all of you and having some fun in the process.


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

The first thing to ask when a 9 month old puppy comes up the leash? What did I do wrong?


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

frank guios said:


> . He came up leash on me twice at about 4 months because he did not like it when his choker was repositioned high on the neck and received a correction.


Wth a correction with a *choker* on a 4 mo pup? 
Pups here only wear a flat collar.


----------



## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Geoff Empey said:


> Let the pup be wild, let the pup bite, let the pup chase. Manage the pup yes. Just use a tug, ball, crate and a bait bag. Not a leash and collar, outside of just guiding the pup with the leash.
> 
> Everything should be fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun fun, if it isn't ... if you forget about fun Frank, you and this pup are screwed as a working team.


this ^^^^ took me ages to learn this, best thing I ever did learn.


----------



## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Matt Vandart said:


> this ^^^^ took me ages to learn this, best thing I ever did learn.


Yeah took me a long time to learn it too. Being men we all seem to be in touch with the predisposition to use 'force' in dog training. Not just with our hands via the leash but with our voices. All of that can effect our relationships with our young working dogs. I'm not saying that we need to put our Malinois and Dutch pups into strollers or carry them every where in hand bags. :lol: But just because their Dad was a kick ass police dog or KNPV dog doesn't mean they are not sensitive to you and their environments, especially as they are forming their own view of the world around them. I firmly believe it is what we do as handlers in their environments that forms that view. 

Here is my current young dog at 13 weeks just me and him playing, working full grips letting him hear the stick. No pressure just fun. http://youtu.be/viMqjxSdeeg 

At 3 years old during training http://youtu.be/aR025S66DuQ I still just have fun with him. Life is to short to train if it isn't fun.


----------



## Drew Peirce (Nov 16, 2006)

4mo old pup coming up the leash...........that's cute


----------



## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Another example of fun with a young dog some nice stuff happening here. 

http://youtu.be/yiTxDuOP5m0


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Trainer has a female for sale, don't know if this is the one.


----------



## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Trainer has a female for sale, don't know if this is the one.


He has a couple of videos on FB that is where I found this one and I think this dog is F/S. I really like their groups training from the videos they post on youtube. All of his young dog and puppy videos are worth to take a look at. http://www.youtube.com/user/Smackk9


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Very good group of trainers, and very nice folks ;-)


----------



## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Very good group of trainers, and very nice folks ;-)


LOL! Reading in between the lines it sounds like you are a member of their training group. :mrgreen:=D>


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Geoff Empey said:


> LOL! Reading in between the lines it sounds like you are a member of their training group. :mrgreen:=D>


No, exactly not. But one of the groups we like to visit and train with.


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> No, exactly not. But one of the groups we like to visit and train with.



That's what the OP needs to do. Get out and visit some other clubs and find one he likes. Instead of getting advise on the Internet.


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Instead of getting advise on the Internet.


That's interesting. Just last week there was a bit of a "to do" here over someone not using the WDF for advice, which coincidentally happens to be "on the Internet". Hesitation on the bite seems a far more innocuous than the other and conversely considerably more complex of an issue of working on addressing a reportedly dangerous dog.

I know, I know... you're probably going to explain to me all the ways this is different from the other. I get that so save your breath. I just think if you put that thought out there enough, or say one too many times that a particular topic or post is stupid, eventually you (the collective "you") will reap what you sow.


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Asking for training advise on the WDF when you live in a country with probably more quality training clubs per square mile then any place else in the world is a whole LOT different then asking for help in placing a dog before you KILL it. If you can't see the difference maybe you need to move to the lower 48 and give the brain cells a chance to thaw a little?


----------



## frank guios (Apr 21, 2012)

Like I said in previous posts, I am a member of a club in holland and have professionals helping my dog and I work through these issues. There is a problem with the professionals articulating what exactly is the the process is and how it would help. I was just looking for advice and or tips and techniques. I can assume most of us on here are trying to be better dog handlers and trainers, even the seasoned 20 year professional had to start from some where. As for those that gave good advice thank you for your professional opions


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

my apology for not reading previous posts from last year when you started this thread 

btw, what happened to Lance ? how's he doing now ?


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

frank guios said:


> Like I said in previous posts, I am a member of a club in holland and have professionals helping my dog and I work through these issues. There is a problem with the professionals articulating what exactly is the the process is and how it would help. I was just looking for advice and or tips and techniques. I can assume most of us on here are trying to be better dog handlers and trainers, even the seasoned 20 year professional had to start from some where. As for those that gave good advice thank you for your professional opions


I f the translation is a problem, let them write it down, i'll translate if necesary.


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> If you can't see the difference maybe you need to move to the lower 48 and give the brain cells a chance to thaw a little?


Odd, I thought I said I did. To humor you though, I don't live in Alaska anymore.


----------

