# Non Sport PPD



## Dee Harrison

For a real life ppd do you prefer a dog that you have to teach to bite and hope that it is civil (defense drive) enough (?), or, a dog that you know will bite (very civil - high defense drive) and you have to teach it control (obedience)? I am not refering to any breed in particular!


----------



## James Degale

Depends on what the dog's life the rest of the 99.9999999% time it is not being called into action as a PPD or in training. Most trained PPD never or very rarely have live bites.


----------



## Kyle Sprag

Dee Harrison said:


> For a real life ppd do you prefer a dog that you have to teach to bite and hope that it is civil (defense drive) enough (?), or, a dog that you know will bite (very civil - high defense drive) and you have to teach it control (obedience)? I am not refering to any breed in particular!


 
Huh? You can not "teach" a dog to bite and the term "civil" is NOT "defense" drive. :roll:


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

I have taught dogs to bite that would not bite otherwise. Not pretty, but the money was good. And yes, you would get bitten if the owner told the dog to do so.


----------



## Kyle Sprag

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I have taught dogs to bite that would not bite otherwise. Not pretty, but the money was good. And yes, you would get bitten if the owner told the dog to do so.


I think I understand what you write but do not consider that teaching although the dog must of come to an understanding of an expectation and consequence. I would be more inclined to think that it is more of a manipulation of the genetic material (dirve & threashold) than "teaching"


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

No, this was the e-collar stays on till you bite. The bite was taught by putting the dogs mouth on the sleeve, and given the command "pakken"

Ugly ugly ugly. I didn't have manuals and videos and internet Xperts like there are now......not that they could stomach what it took to get that dog to go.


----------



## Dee Harrison

Kyle Sprag said:


> Huh? You can not "teach" a dog to bite and the term "civil" is NOT "defense" drive. :roll:


When I say "teach a dog to bite", I am refering to 'bite work'. In 'bite work' the dog is taught to bite the particular prey object (the handler w/the sleeve). Some dogs are naturally protective (I don't mean fear biters) and do bite when they percieve a threat to the owner.
If I misconstrued the terms "civil" and "defense drive" then chalk it up to my ignorance.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

I am just going to tell you to go and get a gun and take classes on how to use it. 

Find a dog training club, and in a couple of years we will talk again about non sport ppds.

I think you will be better prepared for the dog by then, and the gun classes will benefit you as well.


----------



## Kyle Sprag

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> No, this was the e-collar stays on till you bite. The bite was taught by putting the dogs mouth on the sleeve, and given the command "pakken"
> 
> Ugly ugly ugly. I didn't have manuals and videos and internet Xperts like there are now......not that they could stomach what it took to get that dog to go.


 
I have seen this before, kinda like teaching a forced retrieve only rather than retrieve it is bite (retrieve a larger object) LOL 

Yep, Ugly


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Avoid the pain by biting as hard as you possibly can. 

I have seen a few dogs here that could use that training. LOL (Dobermann)


----------



## Howard Gaines III

Dee Harrison said:


> For a real life ppd do you prefer a dog that you have to teach to bite and hope that it is civil (defense drive) enough (?), or, a dog that you know will bite (very civil - high defense drive) and you have to teach it control (obedience)? I am not refering to any breed in particular!


Isn't it better to have one that WANTS to bite and then shape the outcome? If the desire isn't there or the ability isn't in it, what do you have to show for??? I love 9 week old puppies and bite rags, they want it and will fight to get it. Shaping the the outcome becomes a patterned set of skills/scenarios and rewards.


----------



## Bob Scott

Watching a dog trained to bite that didn't want to is a sad picture. Go watch the SV protection routine. :evil:


----------



## Howard Gaines III

Bob Scott said:


> Watching a dog trained to bite that didn't want to is a sad picture. Go watch the SV protection routine. :evil:


*OUCH!*


----------



## Bob Scott

I've seen two. Only saw the second to see if what I saw in the first was as bad as I recalled. 
Unfortunately it was.


----------



## Dan Long

Bob Scott said:


> Watching a dog trained to bite that didn't want to is a sad picture. Go watch the SV protection routine. :evil:


There was an article in the paper about a dog show here this weekend. One of the people interviewed said something about it's seeing what a well-bred dog is, what it "should look like, act like, behave like."

I commented that if they wanted to see how a working dog acts and behaves, don't expect to see it there. So I got some AKC person on my case about how AKC has their working dog trials now, and I'm thinking exactly what you said Bob. How many of those dogs really want to bite and how many have been conditioned to take a sleeve against their will?


----------



## Howard Gaines III

The AKC is great for some things, but working dogs....I see many dogs under their hand NOT WORKING. But they know best!!! :evil: Dan watch out, they may send a paper dragon after you...............RUFFFFF\\/


----------



## Bob Scott

Dan Long said:


> There was an article in the paper about a dog show here this weekend. One of the people interviewed said something about it's seeing what a well-bred dog is, what it "should look like, act like, behave like."
> 
> I commented that if they wanted to see how a working dog acts and behaves, don't expect to see it there. So I got some AKC person on my case about how AKC has their working dog trials now, and I'm thinking exactly what you said Bob. How many of those dogs really want to bite and how many have been conditioned to take a sleeve against their will?


 
From my understanding the AKC working dog trials have, to date, been done as a feeling out process. A trial basis to determine interest. 
No titles earned will be put behind the dog until/unless the program get the go a head (some time this year).
Also, from my understanding, many, if not all these dogs that have entered are either SV dogs OR working line dogs that have already been titled through USA, DVG, or the WDA. 
I SERIOUSLY doubt that any ASS dogs will be showing up IF the program survives.


----------



## Dan Long

The way this person was talking to me, you'd think that the events they were hyping were the be all/end all of measuring a dogs ability. Lure coursing, Earth sports, Working dog trials and herding anything from ducks to cattle. 

I asked, if an AKC show dog is such a good dog, why are there so few doing any real work like police/military, SAR, herding on farms, etc, and why are the dogs that actually do this work coming from non show lines. No answer.


----------



## Paul Smikovecus

if it doesn't work, it ain't a dog! but hey it sure is pretty...haha


----------



## Paul Smikovecus

before i get attacked . . . I'm just joking haha

there seems to be big money in showlines, but the temperments have been bred down to that of a lab or a golden in most breeds that used to be "working"


----------



## Bob Scott

Dan Long said:


> The way this person was talking to me, you'd think that the events they were hyping were the be all/end all of measuring a dogs ability. Lure coursing, Earth sports, Working dog trials and herding anything from ducks to cattle.
> 
> I asked, if an AKC show dog is such a good dog, why are there so few doing any real work like police/military, SAR, herding on farms, etc, and why are the dogs that actually do this work coming from non show lines. No answer.


A example based on expierience concerning the "Earthdog" sport. 
This is a timed event. All well and good and but take a "real" working terrier that has lots of expierience working true quarry in the ground. Enter it in a "Earthdog sport" and see how it's time drops off from the "sport" dogs. 
The "sport" terrierss are running in to a caged rat that can't get to them. The "working" terries know that speed can get them ****ed up!
I showed and finished a number of terriers in the breed ring and used to get all kinds of  looks when I suggested they put a cage of rats in the ring instead of sparring the show terriers to see their "fire" :roll:. What was really funny about that was the bull breeds were never sparred. 
Herding can still get the crap knocked out of a dog or seriously injured but AKC herding is more about handling skills then it is natural ability of the dog.


----------



## Paul Smikovecus

CHECK OUT the UKC and service dogs of america, www.servicedogsofamerica.com

www.sdachattanooga.com

dogs titles earned from this sport are placed on their UKC pedigree. I think this is a great up and coming thing.

Besides, it appears that the UKC supports the "working" abilities of each dog as to what the dog was originally intended for; not for how pretty it looks.

I'm becoming a HUGE fan.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Oh yes, many things out there lowering the bar so that people with no clue can participate.

Good times. Oh look, your dog bit the suit. Here is a title for you, now just come back in a month and we will give you your "dog bit the leg sorta" title.

Make sure we get lots of film of these SDA events. I can narrate them for you, if you want. : )


----------



## Paul Smikovecus

Since you are putting down the SDA myself and many others might be wondering:

What is your *specific *experience and dealings with the SDA that credits your level of expertise in this area?


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Nobody but you is wondering. Many years of dog training gives me the experience to point out the jughead stuff.

Post the video, and we can go over them together.


----------



## Paul Smikovecus

Just what I thought. 

Thanks for the clarity.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Post the video, and I will help you understand. Until then, "thats what I thought" right back at ya.

Just a jughead until the vids come out and...... well, still a jughead sport. LOL


----------



## Howard Gaines III

I'm interested in almost anything but Schutzhund. The more real world scenarios and applications are working dogs can face, the better I like it! It would also be interesting to see some folks with current training/decoying pics of their "style" and abilities. THEN take those photos and create a decoy/helper calander...I'll take ten percent of those profits just for throwing the idea out there...:mrgreen: =D>


----------



## Dan Long

Howard Gaines III said:


> The more real world scenarios and applications are working dogs can face, the better I like it!


I agree- work your dog to be comfortable/aware of the situations he might need to do in real life. I like the situations where I take him for a "walk" and have a decoy pop out from behind a shed or vehicle, and having the dog drive him off. It doesn't always have to be a bite, teaching him that driving the threat away is all he needs to do. Similar situations where the decoy uses gunfire, or comes up behind you, all giving the dog more real life situations to become familiar with.


----------



## Howard Gaines III

Dan Long said:


> I agree- work your dog to be comfortable/aware of the situations he might need to do in real life. I like the situations where I take him for a "walk" and have a decoy pop out from behind a shed or vehicle, and having the dog drive him off. It doesn't always have to be a bite, teaching him that driving the threat away is all he needs to do. Similar situations where the decoy uses gunfire, or comes up behind you, all giving the dog more real life situations to become familiar with.


And this is where the Schutzhund BH test is good...ooops!?
You have folks jogging, cars, rows of walkers, and more normal issues for the dog to experience. Even the seperation period is real. My dog was tied to a post as if I went out for a few minutes for the "call of nature." The AKC CGC is nice but the "noise" test isn't quite real...never had too many old ladies running up to me with pasta bowls making noise! The BH should be The Test.


----------



## Edward Egan

Bob Scott said:


> From my understanding the AKC working dog trials have, to date, been done as a feeling out process. A trial basis to determine interest.
> No titles earned will be put behind the dog until/unless the program get the go a head (some time this year).
> Also, from my understanding, many, if not all these dogs that have entered are either SV dogs OR working line dogs that have already been titled through USA, DVG, or the WDA.
> I SERIOUSLY doubt that any ASS dogs will be showing up IF the program survives.


The owner of the Mal I work told me that a member of the local AKC approached him and asked if he would be interested in participating with his dog in a AKC working dog event. He was until he was told he would have to get a show title on his dog first![-X


----------



## Jerry Lyda

They told him wrong. A dog doesn't have to have a show title to trial in AKC working dog sport.


----------



## Edward Egan

Jerry Lyda said:


> They told him wrong. A dog doesn't have to have a show title to trial in AKC working dog sport.


So are there any requirements?


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Money to pay off the crooked ass judges. LOL


----------



## Paul Smikovecus

Now thats one quote that finally speaks the truth Jeff.

Anyway, I'm still waiting for your trial and decoy certifications or experiences. 

I would hate to have someone critque "videos" that has ZERO experience or certs in a given discipline or multiple disciplines for that matter.

OR perhaps you are a judge?

or do you just read and write online? 

This will help *many of us *understand your level of expertise.

](*,)

Thanks and have a great day.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

I just read and write online. It is fun to make fun of people like you that lower the bar so that shitters can have a sport as well.

I have never actually trained a dog, don't own one, never posted a video, never was a decoy or helper for anyone.

Again, it is just fun to make fun of shitter sports like yours.

Now where is this video, Mr insecure panties ??? Or would it pain you too much to have someone like me "critique" or more to the point, make fun of you ??? After all we all know that once you are certified, you know all there is to know about dog training, and once you are a judge, you are GOD.

Show the video chicken boy.


----------



## Bob Scott

As in Sch the dog has to pass a TT (BH) and then it can get to the WD I, WD II, and WD III.
They will have to be AKC registered to enter. 
There was a time limit that would allow you to show a currently titled dog at it's current title but that may change later. 

Edward, as of this time in the process the Mal is not eligable. It's up to the parent club to get involved and the AKC Mal folks haven't responded.


----------



## Edward Egan

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I just read and write online. It is fun to make fun of people like you that lower the bar so that shitters can have a sport as well.
> 
> I have never actually trained a dog, don't own one, never posted a video, never was a decoy or helper for anyone.
> 
> Again, it is just fun to make fun of shitter sports like yours.
> 
> Now where is this video, Mr insecure panties ??? Or would it pain you too much to have someone like me "critique" or more to the point, make fun of you ??? After all we all know that once you are certified, you know all there is to know about dog training, and once you are a judge, you are GOD.
> 
> Show the video chicken boy.


Jeff quit being soooooooooooo PC!


----------



## Edward Egan

Bob Scott said:


> As in Sch the dog has to pass a TT (BH) and then it can get to the WD I, WD II, and WD III.
> They will have to be AKC registered to enter.
> There was a time limit that would allow you to show a currently titled dog at it's current title but that may change later.
> 
> Edward, as of this time in the process the Mal is not eligable. It's up to the parent club to get involved and the AKC Mal folks haven't responded.


Thanks Bob, so has anyone here played with tha AKC's WD titles?


----------



## Edward Egan

I just read over the rules and it seems identical to SchH. Are there any differences?


----------



## Gerry Grimwood

Paul Smikovecus; This will help [size=7 said:


> *many of us *[/size]understand your level of expertise.


Who the heck is Many Ofus, didn't he play for the Cubs in the 70's ??


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Yes, he was good friends with Rick Monday. : )


----------



## David Frost

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Yes, he was good friends with Rick Monday. : )


I thought Monday played for the A's

DFrost


----------



## Howard Gaines III

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Who the heck is Many Ofus, didn't he play for the Cubs in the 70's ??


Gerry! YOU know some of these young bloods weren't around then!!! Unfair question, do over.........


----------



## Paul Smikovecus

Jeff,

"training experience" . . .ring around the rosies . . .

Chicken Boy...haha...what are you in the 3rd grade? 

Its ok GWB came from Texas and I hear he is one hell of dog trainer too!.


----------



## Kadi Thingvall

Bob Scott said:


> It's up to the parent club to get involved and the AKC Mal folks haven't responded.


This isn't accurate. The ABMC did express interest in being part of the program at the beginning but for some reason was left out. They have since continued to express interest but at the moment it hasn't happened. I don't know if AKC isn't allowing any more breeds to "join up" (I believe that is the reason but am not 100% sure) or if something else is going on.


----------



## Bob Scott

Thanks Kadi, that's different then what I heard and makes more sense. 
The GSD, Dobe and, I think, Bouv are recognized and it didn't make sense that the Mal wasn't.


----------



## Andy Larrimore

Jeff,
I have personally had Paul decoy dogs for me during his visit to the DELMARVA Working Dog Group. He brings a lot to the table and is a very knowledgeable decoy / trainer. I remember seeing your video on here a couple months ago. It wasn't to bad, but nothing to write home about either. I think we can all learn from each another no matter what venue you chose to train in. You catch more bees with honey then vinager. 
Before you begin asking what experience I have, I'll lay it out for you. I began training dogs when I was in the Marine Corps. I continued training when I got out of the Corps and became a police officer. I have worked with over 250 dogs in the last 12 years for patrol purposes. I have certified the FIRST dual purpose Rottweiler in the state of Maryland. I wanted to make sure that people would not doubt me or my dog, so I certified him in patrol and narcotics through 3 different organizations multiple times during our first two years on the road. I have been recognized through the Maryland Courts as an expert witness for police K9 training. I am a certified K9 instructor / handler and serve in that capacity. 
Remember, more bees with honey then vinager! :smile:


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Well post a video then. I am not catching bees, I am swatting them. I remember the dog handlers in the Marine corps. Pretty ****ing worthless. Didn't you guys sew your pockets down like the MP's ????? Bunch of fat guys with clean utilities.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHA

Show me a video. I have seen so many subpar cops and cop dogs that just the fact that you are a cop puts you on the "sure you can train a dog" list.

In the Marines, we called you guys Pogues for a reason. : )

Sorry, out of honey right now, call back later.


----------



## greg wilson

Wish I could be like Jeff...

Big fish/small pond?

Legend in his own mind?

Maybe if all us idiots quit posting on this forum and wasting his time the all knowing Jeff can post to himself and we can all learn from it.


----------



## Andy Larrimore

I never said I was an MP in the Marine Corps. What I said is that I began training dogs when I was in the Marine Corps. I became a certified decoy through the Navy at Yorktown, VA where I was stationed. I spent 2 years and 10 months stationed with the USMC FAST team. Just so you know, my MOS was 0311 (Infantry) in case you did not know. Pogues, I hardly think so.

The fact that I have seen a video of you decoy puts you on the "sure you can train a dog" list. 

Big fish/small pond?
:---) 
Legend in his own mind?


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Where is the video ?? All I hear is bla bla bla certification bla bla bla. Put up or shut up.

Looks like the big fish has eaten the small fish and doesn't like the taste.

0311
0321
0324


----------



## Howard Gaines III

And video is *ONLY* as good as the condition it was done in and for...Too much chance to "doctor" it up and to stage the event. Can't fool me...:---) I'm still waiting to see decoying pics so my calander can come out in 2010 and my 10% royality $$$$$$$ hits the mailbox!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!\\/ 

I'll second Paul's decoying skills! Very safe and very skilled! Seen it in person and that doesn't lie!!!!!!!!![-X


----------



## Andy Larrimore

The fact that I train dogs that have had real bites, live tracks, and numerous durg seizures speaks for itself. The fact that I am one of only a handfull of people recognized by the state as a K9 expert witness speaks for itself as well. The proof is in the work performed by the dog. That is a reflection of the handler / trainer. 

So do you have any real world K9 experience apprehending bad guys or getting drugs off the street, or do you just sit on your couch watching cops telling yourself how great you are. I have helped send numerous people to jail as a result of real world K9 applications. I guess that doesn't mean anything though because you haven't seen the video.

If certifications don't mean anything then why did you post your Mondio Ring decoy certification video on here? Maybe someday I too could run around a field, and jump a few things so I could get a decoy certification like you. 

Looks like the big fish has eaten the small fish and doesn't like the taste. 

0311, 8152, 0933


----------



## brad robert

greg wilson said:


> Wish I could be like Jeff...
> 
> Big fish/small pond?
> 
> Legend in his own mind?
> 
> Maybe if all us idiots quit posting on this forum and wasting his time the all knowing Jeff can post to himself and we can all learn from it.


OUCH



Andy Larrimore said:


> The fact that I train dogs that have had real bites, live tracks, and numerous durg seizures speaks for itself. The fact that I am one of only a handfull of people recognized by the state as a K9 expert witness speaks for itself as well. The proof is in the work performed by the dog. That is a reflection of the handler / trainer.
> 
> So do you have any real world K9 experience apprehending bad guys or getting drugs off the street, or do you just sit on your couch watching cops telling yourself how great you are. I have helped send numerous people to jail as a result of real world K9 applications. I guess that doesn't mean anything though because you haven't seen the video.
> 
> If certifications don't mean anything then why did you post your Mondio Ring decoy certification video on here? Maybe someday I too could run around a field, and jump a few things so I could get a decoy certification like you.
> 
> Looks like the big fish has eaten the small fish and doesn't like the taste.
> 
> 0311, 8152, 0933


GAME OVER LMAO


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Post a video. I still do not see anything.

Quote: The fact that I train dogs that have had real bites, live tracks, and numerous durg seizures speaks for itself.

Not really. What is it exactly that it speaks of ?? Look I caught a retard ?? Yes, I am sitting on my couch making fun of you. You carry a gun and have a dog that has a live bite. Wow, tell me when to be impressed. Howard has a dog with "live bites" as well. Did you train that dog ??? LOL


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Maybe if all us idiots quit posting on this forum and wasting his time the all knowing Jeff can post to himself and we can all learn from it.

Well at least you know what I think of you.....and your breed of choice. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Feel free to post a video of your dog working. Always love to have a good laugh in the morning.


----------



## Andy Larrimore

Yes, I did help train Howards dogs in a civilian personal protection application, not in a law enforcement application. The dogs that I was reffereing to with live bites, tracks and drug seizures were all police dogs. I did not list my experience to impress you or anyone else. 

I listed my experience to simply reinforce that Paul does know what he is doing. I have seen many people that simply have no clue and claim to be trainers or decoys. I have also seen very good trainers and decoys as well. It was very apparent to me that Paul does know what he is doing when I observed him decoy on more then one occassion.

You have a video of you running in a suit jumping over a few things and I think you even worked a dog. Wow, tell me when to be impressed !

What experience do you have again?


----------



## David Frost

Unless someone has additional input to the question posed by the OP, this thread will be locked. The bickering has gone on long enough.

DFrost


----------



## Howard Gaines III

David, I understand your position here!!!! The point here is non sport PPDs. Andy and Paul both have caught my dogs/Bouvier des Flandres. Both gentlemen are very good decoys and their abilities to read and work the dogs in and out of the main drives has been proven. I would trust either with them and would expect them to bring out the BEST when they are worked.

Non sport is not that much different than sport, the dogs must bite and find optional targets if the decoy is able to create a miss. Andy has done all of the foundation bite work on my dogs and done it to MY direction. They are my dogs and I decide how the animal is to be worked. Not using an e-colar to MAKE them work. The e-colar has been used to clean up the "out" command. But again, it isn't sport Schutzhund, Ring, or anything else that we are training for around here. 

I don't care if they ever "out" on a bad guy....The main point to focus on is this; regardless of venue, certifications and testing, decoying and judging, all require some level of accomplishment. Show your skills in paper, photos, or other area...but hiding behind &&$%#@& isn't acceptable in a working forum were exchanges of KNOWLEDGE should shine. Paul and Andy have great personal and professional goals, their dogs are great for the need they are using them in, and neither "need" to hide their game in shame! It's been said by one mouthpiece that I'm afraid to catch dogs. Funny if you get on my website looks like I'm doing the job!!! Is there ever a concern about a dog or two? YEP, always.

PPDs or K-9 sports require hard work and a focus on obtaining the outcome you want and what you want for your dog. Keypad "bit&ching" and "videos" prove nothing here. It's show and tell in my book. I've worked and caught Andy's Rotties and Paul allowed me to work his dog. Both are fine examples of what hard work and effort can do for the venues you use them. \\/


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

(crickets chirping)


----------

