# Suggestions for Weight Gain



## Dave Immure (Oct 15, 2008)

I have a 4 month old GSD that will not keep on the weight. I feed Honest Kitchen (Embark) for now and plan to move to raw as soon as I finish a book I ordered off of Leerburg's site. I had a fecal sample analyzed and everything came back negative. Activity levels are normal and he has a good appetite. I am feeding four cups a day which is the max recommended for a 30-50lb dog on the box. I also give him tons of training treats throughout the day. Does anyone have any suggestions? He is 32lbs and showing to much rib for my liking.


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

Double cheeseburgers from McDonalds, :razz: Only $1. Inow it helps me put weight on LOL


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Pups eat almost as much food as they will when they're full grown.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

todd pavlus said:


> Double cheeseburgers from McDonalds, :razz: Only $1. Inow it helps me put weight on LOL


Yuk, I'd lose weight because I couldn't eat those soggy specimens.

There's nothing to beat a self-made hamburger with Sauerkraut and fried eggs on top, covered with cheese and hot Ketchup!!!!!


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

That also sounds good Gillian, I'm not picky


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

C'mon over :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

If only I could figure out what" small hilly country" it is. LOL. That's an expensive flight for a burger, it must be delicious.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Dave Immure said:


> I have a 4 month old GSD that will not keep on the weight. I feed Honest Kitchen (Embark) for now and plan to move to raw as soon as I finish a book I ordered off of Leerburg's site. I had a fecal sample analyzed and everything came back negative. Activity levels are normal and he has a good appetite. I am feeding four cups a day which is the max recommended for a 30-50lb dog on the box. I also give him tons of training treats throughout the day. Does anyone have any suggestions? He is 32lbs and showing to much rib for my liking.


Dave,

This one is easy. Feed the dog (significantly) more. If the dog doesn't start to gain weight, then bring him in for bloodwork. If he doesn't gain weight, I would start suspecting a pancreas issue.

If I remember right for feeding raw a 30 lb pup might be eating something like:

.5 c THK
.5 c (.25 lb) raw ground meat
1 egg

1 chicken leg quarter (.75 - 1.25 lb)

.5 c THK
.5 c (.25 lb) raw ground meat

(plus any supplements)


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

todd pavlus said:


> If only I could figure out what" small hilly country" it is. LOL. That's an expensive flight for a burger, it must be delicious.


It is delicious\\/ \\/ \\/


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I never pay attention to what it says on the bags for recommended feeding. If the dog is to thin, I feed more, if they are to fat, I feed less, or up their exercise. Or both. I haven't found the packages to be accurate, I have dogs that eat 1/2 of the recommended amount, and some that eat almost double, to maintain the same basic weight.


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## liz shulman (Aug 28, 2008)

I couldn't keep weight on my dogs with Embark. When I increased the amount, they got upset bellies.

I've done as Kadi does -- adjust the amount according to their weight, and if that doesn't do it, I try different foods. I believe that different dogs have different nutritional needs or utilize food differently.


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Try Innova Dry dog food, it has 557Kcal/cup, the highgest of any dog food, the only one that keeps my active Mal weight steady, he weight 62 pounds and I only need to feed him 3 cups a day to keep his weight steady, before I was using Innova, I had to feed alot more and still see alot of ribs.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Dave Immure said:


> I have a 4 month old GSD that will not keep on the weight. I feed Honest Kitchen (Embark) for now and plan to move to raw as soon as I finish a book I ordered off of Leerburg's site. I had a fecal sample analyzed and everything came back negative. Activity levels are normal and he has a good appetite. I am feeding four cups a day which is the max recommended for a 30-50lb dog on the box. I also give him tons of training treats throughout the day. Does anyone have any suggestions? He is 32lbs and showing to much rib for my liking.


I think THK is a very good food. I think it's a far better food if you add RMBs using the guidelines on the THK bucket.

I would start with taking off the skin and the big globs of fat, but then gradually start including it.

Fresh fat (I do not mean rancid used or even cooked fat) is a good thing for a healthy dog.

As far as feeding raw goes, good for you. Did you order the Schultze or MacDonald book, by chance? Both are good reads.

THK with RMBs is a very helpful bridge to an all-raw diet, IMO.


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## Dave Immure (Oct 15, 2008)

I ordered Raw Dog Food - By Carina Beth MacDonal. I have no idea what I'm doing and needed a good starting point.


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## David Scholes (Jul 12, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> It is delicious\\/ \\/ \\/


What kind of bread do you use for a bun? Is it the same airy tasteless white stuff we have in the US?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Dave Immure said:


> I ordered Raw Dog Food - By Carina Beth MacDonal. I have no idea what I'm doing and needed a good starting point.


That's a good one.

Also, Cindy Rhodes has a good raw feeding Q&A at http://leerburg.com/feedingarawdiet.htm


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Khoi Pham said:


> Try Innova Dry dog food, it has 557Kcal/cup, the highgest of any dog food, the only one that keeps my active Mal weight steady, he weight 62 pounds and I only need to feed him 3 cups a day to keep his weight steady, before I was using Innova, I had to feed alot more and still see alot of ribs.


Did you mean 507 kcals/cup? EVO actually has the most calories of Natura's line (537 kcal/cup). And for a 4 month old pup, I wouldn't get real obsessed with putting weight on them. I'd recommend Innova Large Breed Puppy for GSD pups.


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Did you mean 507 kcals/cup? EVO actually has the most calories of Natura's line (537 kcal/cup). And for a 4 month old pup, I wouldn't get real obsessed with putting weight on them. I'd recommend Innova Large Breed Puppy for GSD pups.


No it is 557kcal/cup.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Khoi Pham said:


> Try Innova Dry dog food, it has 557Kcal/cup, the highgest of any dog food, the only one that keeps my active Mal weight steady, he weight 62 pounds and I only need to feed him 3 cups a day to keep his weight steady, before I was using Innova, I had to feed alot more and still see alot of ribs.


I think it will depend on the individual dog. I tried Innova on the recommendation of a friend, and all my dogs dropped weight. I had to almost double what they were eating to keep them in a decent weight, even my "easy keeper" (she just looks at food and gains weight) was loosing weight on it and went from about 2 cups a day to almost 5 just to keep the weight on.

That doesn't mean I wouldn't recommend trying it, for some dogs it's the perfect food, but I would be ready to try a number of foods until you find one that is just right for your dog(s).


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## kristin tresidder (Oct 23, 2008)

evo isn't good for young puppies because of the high calcium content. i wouldn't recommend it for pups under 6mos of age.


feeding raw is really easy! i was nervous too when i started, and ended up working harder than i had to! my 45# 7 month old pup eats about 3 - 3.5# of raw to try and put weight on her for winter. my adults eat about 1.5 - 2# per day.


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## Dave Immure (Oct 15, 2008)

I started making the switch last night. I added .5c of lean hamburger and an egg to 2.0c of THK. He loved it.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Khoi Pham said:


> No it is 557kcal/cup.


No, it's not. I'm a student rep for Natura. From the guaranteed analysis:

http://www.innovapet.com/product_line.asp?id=1


Crude Protein (min) 24 % Crude Fat (min) 14 % Crude Fiber (max) 2.5 % Moisture (max) 10 % Linoleic Acid (Omega-6 Fatty Acid) (min) 2.5 % Vitamin E (min) 300 IU/kg Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C) (min) 500 mg/kg Omega-3 Fatty Acids (min) 0.6 % Total Microorganisms (min) 90000000 CFU/lb DHA plus EPA 0.1 % 
*Calorie Content*: 3,694 kcal/kg (159 g = 1 cup) *504 kcal/cup (5.6 oz = 1 cup)*


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

kristin tresidder said:


> evo isn't good for young puppies because of the high calcium content. i wouldn't recommend it for pups under 6mos of age.
> 
> 
> feeding raw is really easy! i was nervous too when i started, and ended up working harder than i had to! my 45# 7 month old pup eats about 3 - 3.5# of raw to try and put weight on her for winter. my adults eat about 1.5 - 2# per day.


Both of these are actually not true.

EVO is actually fine for smaller breed dogs, even as puppies. It is both AAFCO formulated and has passed AAFCO feeding trials for all life stages. However, they recommend feeding Innova Large Breed Puppy for large breed pups because it is an extremely calorie dense food and it is difficult to keep large/giant breed puppies from gaining weight too quickly while still getting correct vitamin, micro and macromineral levels. Basically what happens is you limit the calories by limiting food intake and you also end up limiting vitamins and micro/macrominerals, which is called caloric dilution. The biggest reason large breed pups have joint disease is not high protein or because of the calcium/phospherous levels. It's due to the food being too calorie dense, the dog gaining too much weight too quickly, and putting stress on the joints.

Second, feeding raw should not be "easy." I'm going to hopefully do a residency in clinical nutrition and I'm all for people doing a correct home prepared diet, whether cooked or raw IF it is done properly. However, there are many ways to do it wrong and few to do it "right." I cringe when I see people say it is easy, as it's really not, especially for puppies when you can't undo damage. It gives too many people the idea you throw them some chicken legs or ground burger and they're good to go. I'd rather see an owner have a dog on Ol' Roy than an improperly done raw/homecooked diet. [-(


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> No, it's not. I'm a student rep for Natura. From the guaranteed analysis:
> 
> http://www.innovapet.com/product_line.asp?id=1
> 
> ...


Well I have been using them for years, and it has always been 557kcal/cup, look at this pict. on the bag. So either the website is wrong or the bag is wrong, but it could be that they are changing formula on me.
http://www.proeditproductions.com/realaudio/innova.jpg


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Dave Immure said:


> I started making the switch last night. I added .5c of lean hamburger and an egg to 2.0c of THK. He loved it.


THK is a part of my dogs diet. I use Force rather than Embark as they seem to do better on it. I also use Thrive (with Quinoa) as I have a couple dogs that keep weight on better with a little bit of grain in their diet. 

For puppies, I start out with THK and ground (bone-in) meat and gradually back off of the THK and add meat that is not ground. 

In the winter I add beef fat (the meat locker grinds it for me) since we get pretty cold here and they burn a lot more when they are out working.


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## kristin tresidder (Oct 23, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Second, feeding raw should not be "easy."


have you done it? why did you find it so "hard?"


say what you will about calcium intake, there's alot of research out there to argue the case for not giving puppies of any breed too high of a calcium content in their food before they're 6 months old.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

JMO - I feed raw and it is easy. Sure, it's not as easy as throwing kibble into a bowl, but I don't find anything difficult about it.

This isn't directed at you Maren, because I know you're being very helpful (and I know this is off-topic, sorry), but I always get a little defensive when the act of feeding a dog is treated like some type of mystery that only a nuclear scientist can unravel. If I have the smarts to feed myself, my husband and my child correctly, then I certainly can handle feeding the dogs too. A little reading/research is really all it takes.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Yes, I've been a raw feeder for about 4 years. Even after 4 years, it is_ easier _than it was at first, but still not "easy" and definitely not something I recommend lightly for many different reasons. It was sobering running a week's worth of diets with nutrition software after doing it for three years and still seeing that I needed to tweak things. What makes it hard is that it takes something like 41 vitamins and minerals in particular proportions to be in balance over time. There are a very small proportion of raw feeders who feed a true prey model diet complete with the whole carcass (muscle meat, organ meat, GI tract, bone) plus a veggie mix. Chicken thighs or pork necks plus some liver does not equal a whole prey model diet. But most raw feeders just go along with whatever the raw website du jour says, even though the people who do these websites say things that are just patently untrue, like that dogs are carnivores (they are carnivorous omnivores), they don't need any plant matter if you just give them meaty bones and organ meat, and that all grains are bad.

Concerning calcium levels, both my nutrition professor who is the diplomate of the American College of Veterinary Nutrition and Dr. Sean Delaney (president elect of ACVN and head veterinary nutritionist for Natura) both were very clear that calorie density is the MOST important factor in joint disease in large breeds is NOT calcium/phospherous levels or ratios or protein levels, but the energy density of the food which makes the pup grow too quickly. I do find it an interesting observation that we quibble about very small percentages of differences in ratios in commercial dog food for calcium (and phospherous) when it's much more difficult to regulate in a raw home prepared diet. :-k 

I know very very few raw feeders that have even used some basic published data to evaluate their diets (like the USDA site, for example), let alone ever put their diets into a nutrition software program (probably because they are justifiably very expensive). That's why even though I had done a raw diet for about 3 years, I was still very wary when I raised a pup on one. 

I don't mean to sound smug and I hope to be a resource for those who chose to do a homeprepared cooked or raw diet (correctly) as I understand a lot of those reasons myself as I'm a foodie and a bit of a control freak. \\/ :lol: But I think everyone needs to understand that raw diets should not be recommended lightly to the average clueless pet owner for a number of reasons. They are a LOT of work to do correctly. The average person nowadays can't barely cook for themselves, let alone their pets. :roll:


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Konnie Hein said:


> JMO - I feed raw and it is easy. Sure, it's not as easy as throwing kibble into a bowl, but I don't find anything difficult about it.
> 
> This isn't directed at you Maren, because I know you're being very helpful (and I know this is off-topic, sorry), but I always get a little defensive when the act of feeding a dog is treated like some type of mystery that only a nuclear scientist can unravel. If I have the smarts to feed myself, my husband and my child correctly, then I certainly can handle feeding the dogs too. A little reading/research is really all it takes.


No offense taken and yes, I do know where you're coming from!  Some of the veterinary nutritionists seem to feel like they need to totally reinvent the wheel. In other words, getting some of them to think "okay, what is this animal designed to eat" instead of thinking "what can we get away with feeding this animal that is cheap for owners and easy to obtain and manufacture." But that's what scientists do, we just gotta know how stuff works. :smile: A little research/reading is great though you do have to be somewhat selective about what you read as some of it is more "I've done it like this for 10 years so everyone should do it like this," which honestly isn't any better than the cheapy brands of commercial foods. Take everything with a grain of salt, particularly if it's just someone writing something that sounds good with no basis in reality (the dogs are carnivores thing is my favorite).


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Corn grits with mystery meat is better than a slightly out of proportion mixture of fresh food? Come on, now.


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## Butch Cappel (Aug 12, 2007)

The recommended feeding amount listed on a dog food bag are based on a mathematical formula figured with the number of kilo calories to support a resting metabolism. The bag will say Recommended  feeding amount, not The feeding amount.

The manufacturers' base use a resting metabolism (think sleeping dog) because they need a consistent calorie requirement to come up with a formula to put on the bag for everyone.

And of course it's better for sales if the amount you use looks small compared to another brand so their math is, shall we say...Conservative!

Kadi is right, skinny feed more, fat feed less, and the only time you pay any attention to the recommended amount on the bag is if your dog only wakes up to eat then goes back to sleep.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Yes, I've been a raw feeder for about 4 years. Even after 4 years, it is_ easier _than it was at first, but still not "easy" and definitely not something I recommend lightly for many different reasons. It was sobering running a week's worth of diets with nutrition software after doing it for three years and still seeing that I needed to tweak things. What makes it hard is that it takes something like 41 vitamins and minerals in particular proportions to be in balance over time. There are a very small proportion of raw feeders who feed a true prey model diet complete with the whole carcass (muscle meat, organ meat, GI tract, bone) plus a veggie mix. Chicken thighs or pork necks plus some liver does not equal a whole prey model diet. But most raw feeders just go along with whatever the raw website du jour says, even though the people who do these websites say things that are just patently untrue, like that dogs are carnivores (they are carnivorous omnivores), they don't need any plant matter if you just give them meaty bones and organ meat, and that all grains are bad.


I think you're making some assumptions here. 

I usually send interested people to a few websites that have great information and tell them to read up on it before trying.

I'll bet if you ran the analyzed contents of any dog food (meaning what's in the bag, not what they put in the food before it's cooked) through the nutrition software, you'd find they are inadequate as well. I haven't done that myself, it's just a guess for sure, but I can't imagine it would be otherwise.

I've been through this with horses as well as with my dogs. I can read until I'm blue in the face. I can try to cover all the nutritional bases as best I can. I can make the best attempt to strike the perfect balance according to whatever authority determines that balance. However, at the end of the day, no diet is 100% "perfect" for 100% of dogs of 100% of the breeds in 100% of the locations for all seasons at all times. All we can do is the best we can do.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Konnie Hein said:


> I think you're making some assumptions here.
> 
> I usually send interested people to a few websites that have great information and tell them to read up on it before trying.
> 
> I'll bet if you ran the analyzed contents of any dog food (meaning what's in the bag, not what they put in the food before it's cooked) through the nutrition software, you'd find they are inadequate as well. I haven't done that myself, it's just a guess for sure, but I can't imagine it would be otherwise.


Sorry it took me a few days to respond, busy test week! 

Well, more my point was that a lot of the raw food sites out there make a lot of claims that really just aren't always true. The folks who write those sites may have been doing it for a few years, but they're not typically biologists or nutritionists and they'll often say things that are not true. The problem is that if John Q. Average Pet Owner comes across these sites and doesn't evaluate them critically, they can end up with deficiencies over time, ESPECIALLY if they deviate from the recipe because they see something on sale at the store for cheap and they figure it can do. Then what ends up happening is the dog has rickets, osteoporosis, toxicities, etc, the dog comes to the vet, the vet sees the dog on a "raw diet" (which may just be ground burger or something), tells all their vet friends, and they all agree that the average pet owner is essentially too unreliable to prepare their pets' meal. 

Right or wrong, this is what happens. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Worse is when someone's little kid gets sick with campylobacter or salmonella because they let them play in the water bowl or the dog licks the kid's whatever and the raw diet gets blamed (even if it wasn't the actual problem). And yes, I would rather have a dog on Ol' Roy than ground burger and rice, nothing but chicken quarters or necks, whatever. And that's saying something!  So I definitely go to bat for you all who want to do a raw diet correctly! :grin: But let's not kid ourselves that's it's easy or convenient for John Q. Average Pet Owner who can barely cook one night a week, let alone for their pets.

I toured the Natura plant in July and yes, all the foods are tested and analyzed after they are made into kibble and whatnot to make sure the vitamin and minerals are still at the correct levels. If you were ever curious how kibble is made (at least by Natura), they put a neat video on their site on how it's manufactured:

http://www.naturapet.com/



> I've been through this with horses as well as with my dogs. I can read until I'm blue in the face. I can try to cover all the nutritional bases as best I can. I can make the best attempt to strike the perfect balance according to whatever authority determines that balance. However, at the end of the day, *no diet is 100% "perfect" for 100% of dogs of 100% of the breeds in 100% of the locations for all seasons at all times. *All we can do is the best we can do.


This is very true. This is also why veterinary nutritionists no longer encourage one single "generic" maintenance diet for home cookers any more for a couple different reasons, including what you mention.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Well, more my point was that a lot of the raw food sites out there make a lot of claims that really just aren't always true. The folks who write those sites may have been doing it for a few years, but they're not typically biologists or nutritionists and they'll often say things that are not true. The problem is that if John Q. Average Pet Owner comes across these sites and doesn't evaluate them critically, they can end up with deficiencies over time, ESPECIALLY if they deviate from the recipe because they see something on sale at the store for cheap and they figure it can do. Then what ends up happening is the dog has rickets, osteoporosis, toxicities, etc, the dog comes to the vet, the vet sees the dog on a "raw diet" (which may just be ground burger or something), tells all their vet friends, and they all agree that the average pet owner is essentially too unreliable to prepare their pets' meal. ......
> 
> .......Right or wrong, this is what happens. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.


I recognize that this has thread has deviated from the OP. Maybe it could be moved? I find the conversation interesting.

Maren,

I often have people asking me for advice on feeding raw, and I have myself sought the advice of longtime raw feeders, including those that have fed raw for multiple gernerations of dogs. I have never put my raw diet through any kind of nutritional software. I am not a scientist or biologist (thought I am interested in both!)


I wonder if you might have some suggestions to the raw feeder that might help them determine HOW they know if they are doing as well as a bag of kibble that is put through the nutritional software before it hits the market.

If gerneral appearance, performance, health, energy levels, and dental health are not trustworthy indicators, what might be? Would yearly bloodwork be enough?


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## Jaime Diaz (Oct 22, 2008)

My GSD is 15 weeks old and 32 lbs. When I first got him he had roundworms and Giardia, so he was skinny. I switched him over to raw and at first it seemed that he was not gaining any weight at all. Now he is gaining weight like crazy. This morning he ate a whole Rock Cornish Game Hen at 1 1/3 lbs. Then I fed him about 1/2 lb of pork for lunch and 1/2 lb for dinner. I just let him eat until he is full.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> I wonder if you might have some suggestions to the raw feeder that might help them determine HOW they know if they are doing as well as a bag of kibble that is put through the nutritional software before it hits the market.
> 
> If gerneral appearance, performance, health, energy levels, and dental health are not trustworthy indicators, what might be? Would yearly bloodwork be enough?


It seems that the consensus among veterinary nutritionists is that they recommend having all dogs on a home prepared diet (either cooked or raw) have a full blood panel (blood chemistry and CBC) run at least once a year. They also emphasize that this isn't fool proof though, because some of the parameters like calcium only measure what's in the blood and not what's in the bone, so it may or may not give you a good indication of what's going on. Radiographs of the long bones probably wouldn't hurt either if you'd like to make your point.  

However, unfortunately until there are good independent peer reviewed studies on a well balanced raw diet versus commercial diet (or low/no grain versus high grain commercial diet), it's all considered too anecdotal. Like I've said in other contexts, "in my experience" is not evidence based medicine. And unfortunately, getting funding to do diet studies (which are difficult and expensive to run, having had years of personal experience with this) in dogs is something that usually has to have funding from private sources.  There's lots of crazy experiments on what cattle, swine, poultry, etc can get away with eating because it matters for profit from production. Dog and cat studies don't have that same draw.


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Speaking of diets, have you seen the kinds of outrageous diet fads there are for humans? Often with completely contradictory diets, completely opposite claims. And people do stay reasonably healthy, and raise reasonably healthy kids that are fed all kind of different things. Could it be done better, sure, probably. But I think if people can feed themselves and their kids without resorting to nutrition studies or specialised software, it's not that big of a deal to feed my dogs. 

I have a problem relating to average joe and the raw hamburger diet mentality, I tend to think if I can do it, it is not that difficult for someone willing to put out a little effort.

I imagine the biggest setback to comparison studies would be defining what a "well-balanced raw diet" entails. What kind of animals, in parts or whole, gut contents or not, extra veggies or grains or not. There is just so much variation, and something that causes problems for one dog may be the ingredient another dog does better with... Some dogs live and breed on a diet of mainly old half-rotten fish, some scavenge, some are fed ground corn and powdered mystery byproducts...A crazy friend of mine has her cats and dogs on a vegetarian diet, of all things, and they are still alive - oldest cat is 16, the dog is 7, I believe. Not in the best of health, but alive...

I tend to look at my dogs, tweak here and there to see what makes them do better, and not stress about it so much.


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## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

I have gotten really good nutrition advice from some vets and some horrible advice from others - you have to look at where it is coming from though. Vets well versed in performance/working dogs tend to give very different advice than your average pet vets who give advice suited to dogs who occassionally roll off of the couch once in a while

I tend to go with doing as much research as possible and doing what works and produces the best performance and produces healthy dogs with long healthy working lives. 

I just have a real problem with the "spin" most dog food companies exert on vets and the effect it has on the advice that is given out at times.

I have had bloodwork done on various dogs and it was always good - I don't see why I would need to do radiographs on them UNLESS I was feeding the stuff that most vets recommend - which is generally in the 24% protein range which is not suitable for working animals - so I figure the best way to keep out of the vets office is to not feed what they suggest.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

One of the best pieces of advice I have gleaned from small animal nutrition courses was to make variety a major goal.

Aside from that horrendous (and common!) example that Maren mentions (people feeding their dogs an all-muscle-meat diet -- basically ground beef, no bones, nothing else), variety is probably the best way to cover as many nutritional bases as possible. A chicken quarter a day doesn't do it.

Even micronutrients we do not yet know about have a pretty good shot at being included if we strive for variety.

In fact, aside from cooked (and rancid) fat, and grain fractions used as cheap substitutes for meat, the sameness of kibble is one of my major complaints.

If I had to feed kibble, it would never in a million years be the same one, meal after meal, day in and day out.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

kristin tresidder said:


> ... say what you will about calcium intake, there's alot of research out there to argue the case for not giving puppies of any breed too high of a calcium content in their food before they're 6 months old.


Can you link me to authoritative research on that? I ask because after a lot of research (years), my understanding is similar to Maren's.

Thanks!


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Anna Kasho said:


> Speaking of diets, have you seen the kinds of outrageous diet fads there are for humans? Often with completely contradictory diets, completely opposite claims. And people do stay reasonably healthy, and raise reasonably healthy kids that are fed all kind of different things. Could it be done better, sure, probably. But I think if people can feed themselves and their kids without resorting to nutrition studies or specialised software, it's not that big of a deal to feed my dogs.
> 
> I don't think the average pediatrician would agree that reasonably healthy kids can be fed all kinds of things. I'm sure they cringe at all the crazy fad diets that the parents go on, let alone the ones who feel the need to subject their kids to the same. And many kids aren't reasonably healthy with the explosion in multifactorial childhood obesity.
> 
> ...


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