# Protection with Danni



## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Obviously, my dog has this nailed much better than I do!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvKrzr65dN8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5QuIOLlHmY


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

You did OK! What could you do better?

Helper looks like he has some good moves!

How old is the dog? How much experience?


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Edward Egan said:


> Helper looks like he has some good moves!


What moves are those? Looks like the typical schutzhund bite boy to me.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Thanks Edward! She's a little over two years old. Not much experience at all. I got her green at 11 months, went around to some clubs, worked with some bad helpers, got discouraged, didn't train at all for 4-5 months and then started back up again at the end of last year when I found my wonderful helper.

It's been tough but she's come through it and so have I!


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Katie, your welcome. So I ask again, what could you do better? I'll give you a hint. "Good thing she's a girl"


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Because the line got between her legs? Hey, if that's all I need to work on I'd say I'm doing pretty well! Staying on my feet is a bit higher of a priority, lol


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Ya, I seen that too, was going to say managing the line better overall. Maybe some better shoe's?


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Agreed, I'm remarkably terrible at handling lines. She actually bounced back into me and that's what knocked me over, but I should have been prepared!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

In a lot of video (not just this one) I rarely see people that put the line behind their hip for leverage on it. For smaller folks o didn't say wimmins) it's a great boost to leash control. You can just lean back into the lead with your body and it take a ton of pressure off the arms.
Otherwise, nice job! :wink:


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Hi Katie

I don't understand why (in the first video) you're sending her from heel position instead of from a stationary position in mid field? Is she doing one blind only? It's a directed blind search and the ideal picture should be flowing from left to right and right to left in front of you NOT breaking from heel position.

Line Handling: Unless she is bothered with you walking up next to her in the blind? Do NOT grab the end of the line if it's under her body.
Even a girl will get off balance and bothered by a line under them.
Walk up and grab the line at the harness and pull it out from under her while you step away. Like Bob suggested, use your body to control her. Put one hand behind your hip and your weight on your back leg and turn to the side. You can use your second hand to keep the slack out of the line but use your body weight (all 98 lbs? )
for most of the work. You'll also get better leverage if you're not so close to the dog. Four foot leashes are only good for PPD's and handlers that are bigger and stronger then you ;-)


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> What moves are those? Looks like the typical schutzhund bite boy to me.


\\/:-\"


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

agree w/ Bob ..... they're not fish 
PM already sent


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Hi Katie
> 
> I don't understand why (in the first video) you're sending her from heel position instead of from a stationary position in mid field? Is she doing one blind only? It's a directed blind search and the ideal picture should be flowing from left to right and right to left in front of you NOT breaking from heel position.


Thomas, I think you might be projecting your training deficiencies onto others. :razz:


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

We also do a lot of fusing around the helper then send the dog in for a grip, sometimes with the helper in the blind, sometimes with the helper on the field. It's good for control and it's a good reward when the dog is correct. 

I really agree with Bob on how you should be holding the line (use your hip to anchor your hand). The way you are doing it now, your hands move forward way too much so you are not being a pole, your arms aren't strong enough to remain stationary, so every time the dog lunges, your arms move forward, which makes things more difficult and less safe for your helper.

Nice dog, looks like you're doing well with her.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> We also do a lot of fusing around the helper then send the dog in for a grip, sometimes with the helper in the blind, sometimes with the helper on the field. It's good for control and it's a good reward when the dog is correct.
> 
> I really agree with Bob on how you should be holding the line (use your hip to anchor your hand). The way you are doing it now, your hands move forward way too much so you are not being a pole, your arms aren't strong enough to remain stationary, so every time the dog lunges, your arms move forward, which makes things more difficult and less safe for your helper.
> 
> Nice dog, looks like you're doing well with her.


oi!! Fusing, dog is correct, send the dog in the blind, helper makes attraction, H&B then grip, also sometimes with helper on the field just send the dog for a grip when the dog is correct.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Thanks all. We did the fussing around for the same reasons Susan said.

I'm using a 6ft line on her. It's the only line I have that I can actually control her with without a number of blisters and burns on my hands. I think a longer line would just get more tangled up in her, or me.

I'll work on my handling. I've tried under the hip and it's really hard for me to do. It's actually the only other time I've ever fallen in protection!


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Katie Finlay said:


> Thanks all. We did the fussing around for the same reasons Susan said.
> 
> I'm using a 6ft line on her. It's the only line I have that I can actually control her with without a number of blisters and burns on my hands. I think a longer line would just get more tangled up in her, or me.
> 
> I'll work on my handling. I've tried under the hip and it's really hard for me to do. It's actually the only other time I've ever fallen in protection!


We use to practice without the dog, LOL. Have some be the dog, you work on grip - balance. It's a matter of technique.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> Thomas, I think you might be projecting your training deficiencies onto others. :razz:


What ever you say Chris. 
I must have missed the new rule change where there was heeling required in the blind search. The last 20 x I trialed the only heeling was up to the start line and that wasn't scored.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> oi!! Fusing, dog is correct, send the dog in the blind, helper makes attraction, H&B then grip, also sometimes with helper on the field just send the dog for a grip when the dog is correct.


Hi Susan,

I do obedience for bites but not with the helper in the blind and a H&B.
The idea is, the bite is a reward for focus. If (IMO) the bite is delayed/interrupted by a H& B you're not rewarding the attention. you're rewarding the H&B. Having the decoy rabbit out of the blind might make more sense? However I like to keep the blind search as 
simple and uncomplicated as possible.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Wouldn't the release to go bark be a reward in itself? She knows the bite is coming. Right?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Katie Finlay said:


> I'm using a 6ft line on her. It's the only line I have that I can actually control her with without a number of blisters and burns on my hands. I think a longer line would just get more tangled up in her, or me.
> 
> I'll work on my handling. I've tried under the hip and it's really hard for me to do. It's actually the only other time I've ever fallen in protection!


If you're getting blisters/burns? Switch to a cotton line and/or wear
leather gloves 
You need to be facing sideways with your weight on your back leg in order for the hand behind the hip to really work


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Katie Finlay said:


> Wouldn't the release to go bark be a reward in itself? She knows the bite is coming. Right?


Not as much as a reward as an actual bite. You have a bark as a reward for attention and then a bite as a reward for the bark?
Too complicated


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## Mario Fernandez (Jun 21, 2008)

Thomas maybe they are working on something you are not aware of. Not a big deal weather they send the dog from heeling or in a stationary position. It is training. 

Katie have fun with your dog.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

I probably need gloves. All other lines just move around in my hands. I can grip that leather one good.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Mario Fernandez said:


> Thomas maybe they are working on something you are not aware of. Not a big deal weather they send the dog from heeling or in a stationary position. It is training.
> 
> Katie have fun with your dog.



Mario,

In that case nothing on the WDF is a big deal 
There is no heeling required in the blind search. If you're doing obedience for bites? Then give a bite when you like the dogs
position. Don't over complicate what the dog has to do to get its
reward.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Katie Finlay said:


> I probably need gloves. All other lines just move around in my hands. I can grip that leather one good.


The Dollar Tree has cheap cloth gloves with rubber mubs that grip pretty good. I've got a nice burn behind my knee where my GSD decided to take off with the DB after wrapping the long line around my left leg :-(


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

*who dat Schutzhund bite boy?*



Christopher Smith said:


> What moves are those? Looks like the typical schutzhund bite boy to me.


Agreed, another case of a decoy getting too big for his britches and thinking he's a training director ;-)
Heck, the "schutzhund bite boy" actually looks like Christopher Smith ? ;-)


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## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

Katie Finlay said:


> I probably need gloves. All other lines just move around in my hands. I can grip that leather one good.


You can get Mechanics gloves at Harbor Freight for around 4 dollars Katie. I have some Receivers Gloves from Big5 that are pretty good, probably won't hold up too long though.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Mario Fernandez said:


> Thomas maybe they are working on something you are not aware of.


Naw, that can't be possible. If Thomas can't see it or figure it out in must not be happening.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Katie Finlay said:


> Wouldn't the release to go bark be a reward in itself? She knows the bite is coming. Right?


You are correct Katie. It seems that you have learned more about protection training than others have learned in decades.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Christopher,

Looks like you doing the decoy work in the video? So why are you playing games? If you think the dog has figured out that the bite is coming after she barks and that she connects that with the attention heeling x minutes earlier? You are more clueless then I thought.
Don't worry though, there are probably some more noob young girls you can dazzle with your BS ? LMAO


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

So the release to bark, whether or not the dog connects the bite with heeling, is not in and of itself rewarding?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Katie Finlay said:


> So the release to bark, whether or not the dog connects the bite with heeling, is not in and of itself rewarding?



Probably not. Barking is a behavior that produces a reward, the bite.
The barking is only a secondary reward. The primary reward is the bite.
You are just complicating a blind search by mixing in the attention heeling. The more complicated you make it. The more likely failure and complications.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Christopher,
> 
> Looks like you doing the decoy work in the video? So why are you playing games? If you think the dog has figured out that the bite is coming after she barks and that she connects that with the attention heeling x minutes earlier? You are more clueless then I thought.


Let me break it down for you 'cause I can't stand to see you twisting in the winds of ignorance. I don't train dogs to bark for a bite. That's the game you play and I understand that. No big deal...you be you. But I like to train a dog to see all engagement and expression of the dog's drives (prey, aggression, dominance) as a reward. That engagement can be anything from posturing to biting. 




> Don't worry though, there are probably some more noob young girls you can dazzle with your BS ? LMAO


Hater. 

I dazzle the old ones too. I even dazzle a few ugly ones here and there....ask your mom.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

A perfect example of "If you can't dazzle em with brilliance? Baffle em with Bull shit" 
FYI
My mother has been dead longer then you've been alive and believe me son. You wouldn't have "dazzled" her on your best day. ;-)


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

is it BS?

I can think of a few instances where the goal of barking is not to get a sleeve popped for a bite...

and releasing the dog into something other than biting as a reward..

or does this just apply to SCH?

what are you guys arguing about anyway...so they let the dog run into the blind to bark when it does something good in ob? what is wrong with that exactly?


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Probably not. Barking is a behavior that produces a reward, the bite.
> The barking is only a secondary reward. The primary reward is the bite.


Maybe in the constructs of your training and comprehension. But not everyone trains like you. Or want's to train like you.




> You are just complicating a blind search by mixing in the attention heeling. The more complicated you make it. The more likely failure and complications.


No Thomas It would complicate things in your training and trialing. Just like, I'm sure, that somethings in your training would complicate things in my training. 

But first off all you are assuming that the helper is in the blind when she is heeling down field. You are wrong as usual. The helper is standing outside of the blind and goes into it when the dog is coming. So go back to the lab and reformulate your training "advice".

The reason I have her come down the field and send the dog from the heeling is because I believe that most control problems in protection start before the dog ever is sent to the first blind. If the dog can stay well under control until the starting mark, the control holds up better throughout the phase. It's the very rare dog that comes on the field bullshiting around that then scores well. I want the dog to understand that his self control and partnership with the handler can earn him an engagement with the helper at any point in the protection. This stops the dog from sleepwalking through the phase. He actually starts to listen to the handler and looking to comply. For instance, he will tend not to have problems heeling from the call out line to the the escape line because he knows that he might be sent to engage at anytime. Therefore there is no need to forge because good heeling can earn him an engagement; not just getting to the line and downing. 

As far as Kadi's handling goes, she is still learning and she is doing an excellent job of that. I want her to really learn how to handle a dog. And I don't ever want her to be a F'n pole!


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> what are you guys arguing about anyway...


I'm arguing for the same reason some people like to put salt on snails. And since The Seed is keeping a low profile lately.....:lol:


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> what is wrong with that exactly?


Nothing really. Well, that really does depend upon who you ask.

Some people want things compartmentalized, others paint the work/training with a broader brush. IMO it depends upon what your goals are. If you want a nice tidy sport dog, compartmentalize the training and execute it exactly the way it should go in a trial. 

Others? And I'd say that I fall into this category, doesn't matter where I am or what I am doing, the exercise will have context because just as Chris said the relationship to the work is built upon partnership and engagement; and perhaps more importantly making the expectations clear from the onset.

That said, depending upon the dog and handler both could potentially achieve roughly the same results on trial day. Not everyone is capable of executing each approach singularly and achieving the desired results. I train first for what works off the field. Ideally, I'd like to see that transition into a dog that may do well on the day I am ready to trial. But if not, I see it as no big loss. Application counts and success on the field (in a trial), is and always will be secondary to me.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> A perfect example of "If you can't dazzle em with brilliance? Baffle em with Bull shit"


If you can't prove them wrong, ply them with platitudes. :lol:


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Just an honest question from a neutral person. 

What if the dog is rewarded for good attention by being sent in for barking and is dirty or does something that you don't want it to do?

Laura


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> Just an honest question from a neutral person.
> 
> What if the dog is rewarded for good attention by being sent in for barking and is dirty or does something that you don't want it to do?
> 
> Laura


I don't know what other people do but our club generally addresses that one of several ways:

1. a line handler is in the blind waiting to intercept the line and make whatever corrections are necessary.

2. the helper takes care of it (depending upon what's taking place). It might be via the process noted above or through other means.

3. someone is in the blind area with the express intent of communicating (via hand signals) to the handler concerning what is/or about to take place in the blind. The dog is then corrected remotely by the handler.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Nicole Stark said:


> Nothing really. Well, that really does depend upon who you ask.
> 
> Some people want things compartmentalized, others paint the work/training with a broader brush. IMO it depends upon what your goals are. If you want a nice tidy sport dog, compartmentalize the training and execute it exactly the way it should go in a trial.
> 
> ...


I took what Chris said to have a slightly different meaning..LOL I took it to mean he wants to see and explore all of the dog's engagement variables, as expressed towards the helper...and that the dog may find that the act of some of those things may be rewarding to the dog.

What did he mean Thomas??  Clear this up... I like Nicole and don't want to have this deep rift between us...it is killing me inside...




Laura Bollschweiler said:


> Just an honest question from a neutral person.
> 
> What if the dog is rewarded for good attention by being sent in for barking and is dirty or does something that you don't want it to do?
> 
> Laura


Another honest question from a neutral person, what happens if the dog does this any other time? if it is being sent into the blind and is dirty or does something that is unwanted?



Thomas Barriano said:


> What ever you say Chris.
> I must have missed the new rule change where there was heeling required in the blind search. The last 20 x I trialed the only heeling was up to the start line and that wasn't scored.


If this is the case, that this setup is so glaringly wrong, why are there 1000's of videos of people releasing the dog for bites for doing good OB, whether it is heeling or postions? and what is so different about releasing him to bark, that it caused you to declare it incorrect? there are no tugs in a trial either. 

why do people use bitesuits in SCH blindwork? there are not bitesuits in a trial...
maybe the dog really likes to guard, and that is very satisfying in itself..

or did you just see that it was Chris, and want to start somethin???


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Hi Nicole,

That makes the situation even worse. You are correcting a dog for not doing a behavior (a blind search H&B). In the OT the bark (H&B) is supposed to be a "reward" for the attention heeling. Once the attention heeling is marked. If you interrupt the reward with a correction you violate the cardinal rules of OC.
Teaching a blind search with attention heeling is like teaching attention heeling for a back or side transport when you really want attention on the decoy. Then trying to reteach the dog so he doesn't get run over on the attack out of the back transport.
You want control during the blind search NOT attention. There are a lot better ways to teach control then attention heeling. 




Nicole Stark said:


> I don't know what other people do but our club generally addresses that one of several ways:
> 
> 1. a line handler is in the blind waiting to intercept the line and make whatever corrections are necessary.
> 
> ...


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> If this is the case, that this setup is so glaringly wrong, why are there 1000's of videos of people releasing the dog for bites for doing good OB, whether it is heeling or postions? and what is so different about releasing him to bark, that it caused you to declare it incorrect? there are no tugs in a trial either.
> 
> why do people use bitesuits in SCH blindwork? there are not bitesuits in a trial...
> maybe the dog really likes to guard, and that is very satisfying in itself..
> ...


Joby,

How many videos to you see with people releasing a dog for a bark instead of a bite as a reward for obedience? For most dogs a bark is a behavior that gets a reward (the bite) not a reward in itself.
I see a few people use bite suits in Schutzhund, but very few used in blind search/H&B.
Chris was the one looking to stir up stuff with his first reply to Ed,
commenting on the "Schutzhund bite boy" when he is the decoy in the video. Chris just misses Don Turnipseed and is lonely or maybe
David Feliciano is not available to train with?


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Hi Susan,
> 
> I do obedience for bites but not with the helper in the blind and a H&B.
> The idea is, the bite is a reward for focus. If (IMO) the bite is delayed/interrupted by a H& B you're not rewarding the attention. you're rewarding the H&B. Having the decoy rabbit out of the blind might make more sense? However I like to keep the blind search as
> simple and uncomplicated as possible.


Many ways to the top of the mountain and different strokes for different folks, right Thomas? 

I have seen a number of great trainers who will have the handler send the dog to the helper on the field and also have the handler fus the dog then send it into the blind, for H& B, with the helper making attraction then going into the blind as the dog comes in. This is nothing new.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Joby,
> 
> How many videos to you see with people releasing a dog for a bark instead of a bite as a reward for obedience? For most dogs a bark is a behavior that gets a reward (the bite) not a reward in itself.
> I see a few people use bite suits in Schutzhund, but very few used in blind search/H&B.
> ...


ah...will do more research, just was confused..still cant see the big deal myself... I did not see it as Chris starting shit, I saw it as self depricating humor...are you qualified as a training director?


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Christopher Smith said:


> As far as Kadi's handling goes, she is still learning and she is doing an excellent job of that. I want her to really learn how to handle a dog. And I don't ever want her to be a F'n pole!


Just a quick comment, I'm not the one handling in the video  Katie is.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Thanks for posting the video,


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Katie....have you used nubby biothane ?? you SHOULD try some if you haven't 
.. no slip, no burn, any weather...too much no slip for some 

side note ... is it a bark and hold or a hold and bark ??


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Nicole Stark said:


> I don't know what other people do but our club generally addresses that one of several ways:
> 
> 1. a line handler is in the blind waiting to intercept the line and make whatever corrections are necessary.
> 
> ...


Laura, I would do number 2. 

But I would never send the dog unless I was as sure as possible that the dog was going to bark. If the dog had barking issues I would roll out pf the blind.

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Thomas,

I am confused here but that is pretty easy for me in the dog training world LOL! 

Are you saying you should never do any focused heeeling before sending the dog into the blind for a B&H/bite or are you saying the B&H has to de complete before adding OB?

With my boy his being dirty on the helper was cleaned up by the helper; verbal/stick/ E-collar..prong only made him fight into the sleeve more.

Also, because he got geeked up so much when first coming on the field and had no other focus the helper (unless I corrected the shit out of him) we slowly added OB before I relased him for bite or into the blind. Started just a little attention, maybe a sit, maybe a drag in and a platz and focus on helper then send in for a bite. 

It is my understanding, I may be completely wrong, teaching him to cap his craziness by using his own drives (hate that word lol) order to get what I want by giving him what he wants LOL. Yes, we did work on the guarding as a separate exercise.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> ah...will do more research, just was confused..still cant see the big deal myself... I did not see it as Chris starting shit, I saw it as self depricating humor...are you qualified as a training director?


Joby if I I say it's straight up Thomas says "No it's at 89.99°" . Then I bust his geriatric balls and explain to him how and why he's an idiot. It's our thing. That's what we do.

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> Joby if I I say it's straight up Thomas says "No it's at 89.99°" . Then I bust his geriatric balls and explain to him how and why he's an idiot. It's our thing. That's what we do.
> 
> Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk


ah...carry on...just trying to see where I can get in  LOL

was thinking I could qualify for a training director...all I need is a BH and to pass a multiple choice test, that I can mail in...doesnt seem that tough...


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Just a quick comment, I'm not the one handling in the video  Katie is.


Lol, thanks Kadi 

On a side note, how's my dog look? Anyone?


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Thanks, Chris. I think Thomas got what I was thinking. If you're using it as a reward and something goes funky and it needs to be addressed, is it a reward anymore? Maybe that's why helpers tend to use blow-outs, roundouts, rollouts, and I can't remember what else I've heard them called but I'm sure there's more. Or just send for a bite. Things are a little more predictable that way. But you're sure the dog is going to do it right. Or if you're thinking any engagement with the helper is good engagement to the dog's mind. (Crap I have come to hate that word)

Have fun, Katie!

Laura


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> a..are you qualified as a training director?


Yes

I've been the TD for three Schutzhund clubs one DVG and two UScA

From the DVG America webpage

Qualified Training Director Applicant List

Last Updated (2/15/2012)

Click on heading name to sort

Name Club 

Akin-Otiko, James Arkansas Schutzhund Club

Anderson, Amelia (Andy) Mid Tennessee Schutzhund Club

Barkus, Miriam Broward Schutzhund Club

Barriano, Thomas Summit Schutzhund Club

snip


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Doug Zaga said:


> Thomas,
> 
> I am confused here but that is pretty easy for me in the dog training world LOL!
> 
> ...


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> Thanks, Chris. I think Thomas got what I was thinking. If you're using it as a reward and something goes funky and it needs to be addressed, is it a reward anymore? Maybe that's why helpers tend to use blow-outs, roundouts, rollouts, and I can't remember what else I've heard them called but I'm sure there's more. Or just send for a bite. Things are a little more predictable that way. But you're sure the dog is going to do it right. Or if you're thinking any engagement with the helper is good engagement to the dog's mind. (Crap I have come to hate that word)
> 
> Have fun, Katie!
> 
> Laura


Laura gets it ;-)


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

We aren't teaching a blind search. We're practicing attention heeling around the helper (who, as Chris said, was outside of the blind). 

Does that not matter? We weren't training for any sort of exercise here, as far as I know.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> Thanks, Chris. I think Thomas got what I was thinking. If you're using it as a reward and something goes funky and it needs to be addressed, is it a reward anymore? Maybe that's why helpers tend to use blow-outs, roundouts, rollouts, and I can't remember what else I've heard them called but I'm sure there's more. Or just send for a bite. Things are a little more predictable that way. But you're sure the dog is going to do it right. * Or if you're thinking any engagement with the helper is good engagement to the dog's mind. (Crap I have come to hate that word)*


That's the key. The reward for the heeling happened the moment she released the dog to engage the helper. 

BTW, I'm growing tired of that word too. It's a really old protection term that has now been appropriated for a new meaning. If you know of another term that works let me know.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> ah...carry on...just trying to see where I can get in  LOL


Get in where you fit in. :smile:

All you need to do is make huge assumptions squarely framed around your personal experience or lack thereof and I'll kick you in the crinklesack too.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Katie Finlay said:


> We aren't teaching a blind search. We're practicing attention heeling around the helper (who, as Chris said, was outside of the blind).
> 
> 
> Does that not matter? We weren't training for any sort of exercise here, as far as I know.


That's not what the 1st video shows.
Chris says "send her when you like her" Then we see Chris in the blind tapping the side to get her attention. The dog comes in and does a 
H&B. Looks like a blind search to me.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Hi Nicole,
> 
> You are correcting a dog for not doing a behavior (a blind search H&B). .


Thomas, I'm not correcting shit. I am in no way at this point in training with my dog. I merely explained what I have seen done in the club and wasn't in any way inviting a discussion as to whether or not that was right or wrong. That's not for me to decide and certainly not so on some stupid forum. ](*,)


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Katie Finlay said:


> Lol, thanks Kadi
> 
> On a side note, how's my dog look? Anyone?


Your dog looks good. She is learning the three pillars of protection bark, bite, out. She barks consistently and is learning that her voice has power. She bites full and with a bit of aggression behind it. She is clear about the out and has very little conflict with you. For a dog with a novice handler,that didn't really chase a rag 6 months ago, she is doing alright. And you are doing alright too.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Either way, as Chris said, it's more of an issue to us to have the dog under control and doing nice obedience before starting the blind search.

What we're doing is just practicing that. I think, even if it did screw up the blind search exercise itself, it would be easier to fix than trying to go back and keep a dog from acting up after he's already been able to do so during the exercise.

Right? Does that make sense?

And I have to think, if it really screwed up the blind search, wouldn't people not continue to do it?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Nicole Stark said:


> Thomas, I'm not correcting shit. I am in no way at this point in training with my dog. I merely explained what I have seen done in the club and wasn't in any way inviting a discussion as to whether or not that was right or wrong. That's not for me to decide and certainly not so on some stupid forum. ](*,)


Nicole

Don't take one sentence out of context. Reread all reply 44.
I was pointing out the difference between correcting the dog for a behavior and interrupting a reward with a correction.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Katie Finlay said:


> Either way, as Chris said, it's more of an issue to us to have the dog under control and doing nice obedience before starting the blind search.
> 
> What we're doing is just practicing that. I think, even if it did screw up the blind search exercise itself, it would be easier to fix than trying to go back and keep a dog from acting up after he's already been able to do so during the exercise.
> 
> ...


Katie

You're confusing attention with control. There are more appropriate and effective ways to train a controlled blind search that don't involve attention heeling. I don't know if you'll screw up the blind search. I've never seen or heard of anyone doing what you're doing.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> I've never seen or heard of anyone doing what you're doing.


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Katie
> 
> There are more appropriate and effective ways to train a controlled blind search.


Hi Tom,

Can you elaborate how you would teach it. What method do you emply for the average dog?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Doug Zaga said:


> Hi Tom,
> 
> Can you elaborate how you would teach it. What method do you emply for the average dog?


Hi Doug

I teach the blind search as an obedience exercise first. When the dog will go around multiple blinds and return to me. I add the distraction of a decoy. Then I put on control. I sometimes have the dog down as he comes around the blind. I"ll have the decoy in the middle of the field (behind me) and send the dog for a bite AFTER
he fronts. I'll have the decoy outside a blind (visible to the dog) and then send the dog to another blind, before he gets to go to the live blind. I"ll occasionally load the blinds where the dog gets a bite or 
gets to do a H&B first in every blind. I'll have the decoy run out of the blind. My Dobermann male doesn't have his SchH I yet but he'll run 6 blinds up and 6 blinds back under control for a tug reward.
I also use low level e-collar


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Hi Doug
> 
> I teach the blind search as an obedience exercise first. When the dog will go around multiple blinds and return to me. I add the distraction of a decoy. Then I put on control. I sometimes have the dog down as he comes around the blind. I"ll have the decoy in the middle of the field (behind me) and send the dog for a bite AFTER
> he fronts. I'll have the decoy outside a blind (visible to the dog) and then send the dog to another blind, before he gets to go to the live blind. I"ll occasionally load the blinds where the dog gets a bite or
> ...


Thanks Tom!


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Katie
> 
> You're confusing attention with control. There are more appropriate and effective ways to train a controlled blind search that don't involve attention heeling. I don't know if you'll screw up the blind search. I've never seen or heard of anyone doing what you're doing.


There's the disconnect. Thomas what she's doing has nothing to do with teaching the blind search. 
:-D


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

susan tuck said:


> There's the disconnect. Thomas what she's doing has nothing to do with teaching the blind search.
> :-D


Someone understands me! I'm not crazy!


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Quote:
Originally Posted by susan tuck View Post
There's the disconnect. Thomas what she's doing has nothing to do with teaching the blind search.




Katie Finlay said:


> Someone understands me! I'm not crazy!


Katie,

Let's not jump to conclusions here 
If you're sending the dog to a decoy in a blind and having her do a H&B? You're teaching a blind search. That may not be your goal, but
that's what you're doing.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

thanks Thomas... 

I looked it up...










so if I get a BH on the dog, and mail in the 50 question multiple choice test, I can be a DVG certified training director too, can't I ? Just a tad more involved than being a CGC Evaluator, that test is only 30 questions...

anyhow just yanking your chain buddy...

I just dont see how you can say what was done was wrong, and be so emphatic about it. LOL


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> so if I get a BH on the dog, and mail in the 50 question multiple choice test, I can be a DVG certified training director too, can't I ? Just a tad more involved than being a CGC Evaluator, that test is only 30 questions...
> 
> anyhow just yanking your chain buddy...
> 
> I just dont see how you can say what was done was wrong, and be so emphatic about it. LOL


Having a BH and passing the test will put you on a list of qualified
candidates. Then you have to get your club members to give you the job. I never was the TD at Summit. I was the TD at two UScA clubs. UScA doesn't even have any TD requirements or qualifications. 
I don't think I said it was wrong. It's just making things more complicated and could have unintended consequences. Katie posted a video looking for comments. I gave mine. What she does with them is up to her. A good trainer learns from their mistakes. A great trainer learns from the mistakes of others ;-)


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Having a BH and passing the test will put you on a list of qualified
> candidates. Then you have to get your club members to give you the job. I never was the TD at Summit. I was the TD at two UScA clubs. UScA doesn't even have any TD requirements or qualifications.
> I don't think I said it was wrong. It's just making things more complicated and could have unintended consequences. Katie posted a video looking for comments. I gave mine. What she does with them is up to her. A good trainer learns from their mistakes. A great trainer learns from the mistakes of others ;-)


word up...


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


>


No kidding!!! I give up, I'm done. Where's that hitting head against a stone wall smilie when I need it!!!!!! I guess we just aren't comunicating that well Thomas, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one, buddy!


Katie I think you and your dog are doing just fine. Keep up the good work.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> No kidding!!! I give up, I'm done. Where's that hitting head against a stone wall smilie when I need it!!!!!! I guess we just aren't comunicating that well Thomas, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one, buddy!
> 
> 
> Katie I think you and your dog are doing just fine. Keep up the good work.


Susan

This hasn't been about Katie or Danni for a long time.
You're communicating just fine. I just don't buy the idea that
sending a dog from the middle of the field to a decoy in a blind isn't a blind search. I also know the difference between attention and control. I actually think Chris should use fight drive to train Katies girl. Yeah that's it, fight drive and shredding and maybe vapor wake decoy detection?


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