# Putting weight on a small eater



## Bree McQuilty (Feb 10, 2007)

My male dog is not a big eater. He will eat just enough to fill his stomach and then turns his nose up. I have been trying to put lots of high energy into smaller packages (like oils and fats) to put a bit of condition on him. So far I haven't had any improvement. My bitch was the same as him at this age and has now come around and started to eat heartily and fill out. Should I let natural processes play out or is there some other way I can get my dog to look less like a supermodel?


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

how old is he? Usually the start to fill out at 18-24 mo.


----------



## Bree McQuilty (Feb 10, 2007)

20 months except it's not really a matter of filling out - he's skinny, waif-like, anorexic... to the point where people approach me and ask if I am feeding him. I'm not REALLY worried about it as my older bitch did the same thing but it's a little upsetting when ppl ask me if I'm starving my dog especially when they eat better than I do :lol: ! He's still full of energy and healthy I was just wondering if there's anyway of increasing his energy intake without increasing the amount of food he is having safely, without upsetting his natural balance. Is it possible to give them too much fats and oils?

He has no problem eating meat and bones (he gets these 2-3 times a week), I also have him on a high quality dry food that I mix with a dash of fish oils and occasionally sardines. He will only eat about a half a cup of dry food a day (a full cup if I'm lucky). Some vets have told me to feed him on cooked rice and chicken mince to encourage him to eat more but this doesn't seem like the best balance for him when he is in a growth period. Only one vet has said don't worry about it, he'll eat when he wants to (my opinion too if we weren't in public eye with busy bodies sticking there noses in where it's not necessary).


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Some dogs are naturally thin and very energetic so they burn all their fat.

If you can´t clearly see his spine, hipbones and all of his ribs, I won´t worry :wink: Can you put a photo here?

You can add some sheep or cow fat (fresh, not commercial brand ´cause they add all kinds of stuff to keep it well for years), next to your fish oils (good omega-3 fats).

Maybe you can add some more meat and some green tripe. But if he isn´t hungry, why force him to eat :wink:


----------



## Bree McQuilty (Feb 10, 2007)

You can see his spine, hipbones and most of his ribs  not for want of trying though!

Can you tell me what green tripe is?

Also, I'm not sure where I'd get a hold of fresh sheep and cow fat - I suppose I should start at my local butcher.

I will try to up his protein intake - that shouldn't be hard as it's a breeze to get him to eat meat. He won't eat his dinner before desert so to speak... Likes the goodies but won't eat his dry food.

He is the troublesome child! :roll:


----------



## Renee Utley (Feb 6, 2007)

Try boiling him some pasta and adding it to his meal. Most dogs like it and it will put weight on.


----------



## Bree McQuilty (Feb 10, 2007)

Tried it Renee... He really is fussy.


----------



## Renee Utley (Feb 6, 2007)

I have had some success in the past with dogs like this by purchasing the canned mackeral. Smells horrible in the morning but the dogs love it. 
Depending on the time you have, have you ever tried feeding the dog small meals, say 3 x times a day?


----------



## Bree McQuilty (Feb 10, 2007)

I offer him up to 4 meals a day but he isn't interested :roll: he drives me crazy!


----------



## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

I'd go the opposite way.. "if you don't wanna eat what I give you then you don't eat at all". The dog won't die, just spend a month making him realize that if he doesn't wanna eat, he doesn't get to eat.

My GSD was the most annoying underfed pup ever. When I got Lyka, she has incredible food drive, so after mealtime if Cujo didn't eat his food or finish it, I'd open both crates n send her in there to eat what he didn't eat. I'd purposely feed Lyka less knowing that she was gonna get her full meal by stealing Cujo's :lol: After a month or so Cujo started to get more competitive for his food n now they both slam into their crates simultaneously when I bring food into the room n both of them lick out their bowl regardless of how much food I give them.

Your dog knows there is always gonna be food around so he'll kinda pick at it when he feels like it. Make him believe that if he doesn't have enthusiasm for his food he ain't gonna get it. If you put it down n he doesn't eat it immediately, take it away from him. If he eats 1/3 of it n walks away, as soon as he stops eating then take it away. 1 meal a day... try skipping a day every 3 days or so, it won't hurt the dog n it'll make him think about his food a little more.


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Bree McQuilty said:


> ... He has no problem eating meat and bones (he gets these 2-3 times a week), I also have him on a high quality dry food that I mix with a dash of fish oils and occasionally sardines. He will only eat about a half a cup of dry food a day (a full cup if I'm lucky)....


He's on part raw and part kibble?

Any reason not to have him on all raw? Maybe he's trying to tell you something. :wink:


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Agreed with Mike. If the dog thinks it's like an all you can eat buffet, some dogs chow down and some dogs get really fussy. Are you doing anything to make the dog work for it? Mine typically have to do down stays for at least two minutes before they get to eat and if they break the down, the bowl goes away until the next meal. 

Green tripe is the intestines of cattle, sheep, goats, whatever with the mostly digested grasses and such still in it. If you get tripe at the grocery store, it's usually already cleaned out and nutritionally not that helpful. I haven't tried it on my dogs (looking for a source), but I've heard it's both quite smelly and very delicious to the dogs. Perhaps instead of the dry kibble, supplement with a little canned food? High quality canned seems to have less grains in it than the complementary dry. I feed Innova EVO 95% rabbit or venison once a week as an additional protein source (it is expensive though!) and Chicken Soup canned as a frozen Kong stuffer.


----------



## Greg Leavitt (Aug 31, 2006)

when I fed kiddle I would take the pork fat that I purchased fresh at the local carneceria (meat market) and blend it into like a paste with salmon oil kelp powder and some vit and mins suplements and then pour it over the dry food my male who is a very picky eater and was very thin would eat it up very quickly and put on a more healthly weight. Greg


----------



## Bree McQuilty (Feb 10, 2007)

> if you don't wanna eat what I give you then you don't eat at all".


We do this at home. He has 15 mins to eat and then it gets lifted. He just never touches it... He doesn't care. I have even tried to starve him for a week to see if he would finish a bowl of food next time I fed him... Same as normal, a few mouthfuls and no more. 

I am keeping him separated from the other dogs so I can't let him get competitive. I did have a break through last night however, he's mad over braised steak and onions of all things! I mixed 2 tablespoons (aussie size ones) with water and poured it over his dry food and he ate the whole bowl!!! The only problem with this is, don't onions cause liver problems in dogs?



> Any reason not to have him on all raw? Maybe he's trying to tell you something


I've been told all raw diets aren't fully balanced??? They need grains and stuff too. But here's logic rearing it's ugly head... Something has gotta be better than nothing.


----------



## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

Go RAW!!!! I wish I would have done it years ago :wink: 

As for a source to find tripe there are a few on-line like here:

http://www.hare-today.com - which is where I get my gullet from  

or someone mentioned this source on another post http://www.prey4pets.com.

Very good suggestions others have made - hope you find one that works for you and your dog.


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Bree McQuilty said:


> > Any reason not to have him on all raw? Maybe he's trying to tell you something
> 
> 
> I've been told all raw diets aren't fully balanced??? They need grains and stuff too. But here's logic rearing it's ugly head... Something has gotta be better than nothing.


Who told you that?

You live where the raw vet wave started!

Here's something to consider: Where would a wolf get grains? (He wouldn't, which is why dogs don't produce the dietary enzymes needed to digest grains.)

If you are interested, we can supply you with links galore.


----------



## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Just wanted to comment on this. Consuming onions can cause hemolytic anemia in dogs. This is when the red blood cells burst. Onion poisoning can also cause liver damage, vomiting, diarrhea, & urine discoloration (due to the burst blood cells). This is due to thiosulphate, which is found in both onions and garlic.



> I think that feeding dogs meat that has been cooked with onions is
> pretty safe but you might want to avoid giving them the broth from around something like pot-roast if there were a lot of onions used in the cooking, just to be safe. - Mike Richards, DVM


----------



## Renee Utley (Feb 6, 2007)

http://www.primalpetfoods.com/

I feed this along with the Canidae kibble. If I did not have so many dogs,I would feed raw exclusively. Might give it a try


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Kristen Cabe said:


> Just wanted to comment on this. Consuming onions can cause hemolytic anemia in dogs. This is when the red blood cells burst. Onion poisoning can also cause liver damage, vomiting, diarrhea, & urine discoloration (due to the burst blood cells). This is due to thiosulphate, which is found in both onions and garlic.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I've read that it takes quite a bit, but I'm with Kristen. Why create a hankering? :lol: 

P.S. Even though Mike Richards doesn't do Q & A on that site now (I think he quit doing it in 2002), it's still a terrific site. www.vetinfo.com


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I always heard that feeding a dog a bit of minced garlic with their food is a natural flea repellent (heard the same of brewers yeast, but I know that can be an allergen). I had known about the onion thing, but forgot that onions and garlic were related. I have given the dogs like the equivalent of about a 1/4 of a clove of garlic in their food before. Any opinions either way on this?


----------



## Bree McQuilty (Feb 10, 2007)

> Who told you that?
> 
> You live where the raw vet wave started!
> 
> Here's something to consider: Where would a wolf get grains? (He wouldn't, which is why dogs don't produce the dietary enzymes needed to digest grains.)


A vet told me that! Actually a few vets... I had been told that in the wild they would eat the entire animal including the masticated and partially digested stomach contents which is where they get their grains and grasses. I'm at a loss as to where I'd get a full stomach of a cow. But I'm going to attempt the raw diet with him. A friend of mine had great success with raw diet with his GSD but I thought the dog wasn't getting all it needed. I only need some encouragement :wink:


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Do a google search on Ian Billinghurst, the aussie vet who made raw food great :wink: I don´t know any english pages but Connie sure now some american ones and there must be some aussie ones.

I use the whole prey model.


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Bree McQuilty said:


> > Who told you that?
> >
> > You live where the raw vet wave started!
> >
> ...


Grasses, yes. Grains, not likely.

But I would read up, if you're really interested. Selena's right that all the great raw feeding vet pioneers came from Australia, and then Schultze, carrying the banner, from the UK. 

I'll give you some links.


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

BTW, I'm one of the people who agree that canids do get some produce (greens) on their own, both in small prey stomach contents and by eating young grasses and some ripe fallen fruits.

Here are some threads. If you read these and want more...... we got 'em! :lol: 

http://www.workingdogforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=2126
http://www.workingdogforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=2031


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

In fact, ruminants like cows, goats, sheep, etc don't really eat much in the way of grains like wheat. They eat grasses. Here's an interesting American site and it has links to local places to get grass fed beef, lamb, chicken, etc. Perhaps there is a similar Australian site around? http://www.eatwild.com/basics.html


----------



## Stacey Kubyn (Dec 28, 2006)

Bree McQuilty said:


> My male dog is not a big eater. He will eat just enough to fill his stomach and then turns his nose up. I have been trying to put lots of high energy into smaller packages (like oils and fats) to put a bit of condition on him. So far I haven't had any improvement. My bitch was the same as him at this age and has now come around and started to eat heartily and fill out. Should I let natural processes play out or is there some other way I can get my dog to look less like a supermodel?


Canine Caviar (www.caninecaviar.com) produces a very high calorie canned beaver, something like 1300 or more calories per can. Their kibble uses millet as a grain source and is calorie dense at 600 calories a cup. Good luck.


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Just a note about grain:

Canids don't produce the enzymes (like amylase) that humans do that process grains. This is probably the biggest problem with the cheap crap grain-heavy kibbles like Purina.

They use the protein in the cheap grain as part of the "guaranteed analysis" protein content on the label, but that grain protein is largely unavailable to a dog's system. (This is the story behind the big ol' poops with cheap kibbles and the teeny ones with mainly-meat diets.)

In addition, the pancreas is stressed by the constant attempts to produce unnatural amounts of grain-digesting enzymes, and I believe (I'm not alone) that this can cause pancreatic derangement, probably one of the major triggers of precancerous tissue change. 

Dogs are designed to eat meat, bones, fat, and a little produce. They are scavengers, of course, but they are not equipped to process daily grains in quantity. This is one food they would never eat in nature, but it's the one food the kibble companies use in abundance. Grain is cheap, and it's easy to bake and extrude.

Millet has one advantage over wheat, etc., and that's its relative novelty. It's novel enough not to have become a common canine allergen (yet). Food allergens are generally proteins, and with dogs they are often the proteins in grains.


----------



## Amber Scott Dyer (Oct 30, 2006)

Just a side note - whether kibble or raw - skip one day of feeding altogether; fast him. Then, feed the dog in a kennel or in a isolated room. Give the dog about half of what you would normally feed him. If he doesn't eat it within fifteen minutes, pick it up and take it away. Do the same thing the next day. Once he begins eating all his food in that fifteen minutes, you can start increasing it slowly until he is eating the normal amount. This worked very well for me - and I had a dog who NEVER ate much of anything - everyone asked me if I was feeding him, too. Now, he eats the full portion I set down for him within ten minutes.


----------



## Amanda Layne (Aug 9, 2006)

> Canine Caviar (www.caninecaviar.com) produces a very high calorie canned beaver, something like 1300 or more calories per can. Their kibble uses millet as a grain source and is calorie dense at 600 calories a cup. Good luck.


I can vouch for this stuff. Out of my 3 dogs I have one who devours anything you put in front of her (the puppy) one who goes in spurts (the male dobe) and one who is the biggest PITA to feed on the planet (boxer) 

It got to the point that I didnt even like to take the boxer out in public, she was skin and bones and I had tried EVERYTHING to make this girl eat. 

All it took was switching back to the Solid Gold line of kibble and adding a little canned canine caviar to their diet, and they all look great now. I just recently started giving them Evangers canned food as well. Both Evangers and Canine Caviar only have 2 ingredients....meat...and water sufficient for processing. The canine caviar has Duck, Beaver, Turkey, and Venison Tripe. Evangers, I feed Buffalo, Rabbit and Phesant.

Good Luck


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Amanda Layne said:


> .... All it took was switching back to the Solid Gold line of kibble and adding a little canned canine caviar to their diet, and they all look great now. ... Evangers and Canine Caviar only have 2 ingredients....meat...and water sufficient for processing.


Yup! Meat is the right ingredient for dogs. =D> 

No grain, no fillers, no sugar, no sodium added.......

And beavers have a thick layer of fat under the skin to insulate them underwater. 

Not only that, but beavers eat aquatic vegetation (along with buds, grasses, canes, leaves, and clover), making that layer of fat a terrific source of Omega 6 and Omega 3 EFAs.

P.S. I didn't know about the new venison tripe version! That's something I'm going to look up and order immediately. 8)


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Amanda, did you find the canned Canine Caviar in stores, or did you have to order it online?


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I haven't seen Evangers around town(though I saw the site and the game meats looked nice). I do like Innova EVO 95% rabbit and 95% venison. Bit pricey, but not bad as a once a week alternate protein source. High in calories too. Probably would be even better if I made friends with more hunters who processed their own stuff.


----------



## Amanda Layne (Aug 9, 2006)

I buy it locally through a distributer. I take a little dolly and walk with him through his warehouse and load up way more than I need...and usually almost pass out when he tells me how much I have spent.  haha

But...You can order it through PetFoodDirect.com, you can get the evangers there too. They also have a 20% off coupon right now Enter Coupon Code PET3399 and it will take 20% off your entire order.


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Amanda Layne said:


> I buy it locally through a distributer. I take a little dolly and walk with him through his warehouse and load up way more than I need...and usually almost pass out when he tells me how much I have spent.  haha
> 
> But...You can order it through PetFoodDirect.com, you can get the evangers there too. They also have a 20% off coupon right now Enter Coupon Code PET3399 and it will take 20% off your entire order.


Wow. I wish there was a local distributor here.........

But, like Maren, I don't mind a little priciness when it's for variety in protein sources (and not the basis of the daily diet).

This canned venison tripe is a huge find for me, because green tripe is the one thing I can't find around here, and the frozen shipping is a tad PITA (not wanting it left at the door, finding room in the freezer for a large enough pkg to make the shipping worthwhile, etc.).

THANKS!


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Oooh, yeah, the green tripe is cool. The beaver is also pretty intriguing. I've been meaning to see if I can get a supplier for green tripe, but I've heard the smell is pretty gawd awful. Perhaps I'll just be a wuss and stick with the canned. Thanks for the savings code, I'll probably give it a try.  I pay over $3 a can for Innova EVO 95% rabbit and 95% venison (plus they've been having troubles getting the venison in), so this is actually a bit cheaper.


----------

