# SAR Foundation



## David Winners

A couple questions for those of you experienced in SAR training:

I am getting a puppy when I get back to the states from Korea. My intent is to do SAR, OB and detection with the dog. I have lots of experience training explosive detection dogs for both on leash and off leash detection. I have also trained military dogs in tracking / trailing in a find and bite system. Because I am in the military, I will be moving around for the next few years yet, and though I may find a SAR group to train with at my next duty station, it will likely be a different group than I will be working with 2-3 years down the road. I am currently looking for information on foundation work, and what specialty to train.

I understand that socialization and confidence building are key to the successful search dog. Take the dog everywhere, expose it to everything including boats, helicopters, roping, elevators, escalators, unicorns, strange surfaces, noises, sights, smells. Critter neutral, dog neutral, people neutral, no food off the ground, standard working dog stuff to aim for. I get that every dog will have it's challenges and we will work through them accordingly.

My first question is in foundation work. I'm a very competitive person and would really like to do some competition obedience with the dog, maybe a BH or some AKC stuff. Will this get in the way of the independence needed for search work? I have washed a few SchH titled dogs from the detection program because they were glued to the handler and wouldn't work on their own. I have no idea how the OB training was put on these dogs, but I feel that compulsive methods led to a dog that was afraid to try new things on it's own for fear of a correction. They had learned that the heel position by the handler was the safe place. I believe I can avoid this pitfall. 

Do you often see successful search dogs that have been trained to a high level of obedience?

Do you believe that keeping the dog ranging through find it games, while concurrent obedience training is happening, will help alleviate the velcro dog mentality seen in some SchH dogs?

My next questions are about cross training. I have read that some dogs do multiple disciplines in search work. I would like to compete in Nosework, but wouldn't want want that training to get in the way of search work.

Do you see any problems arising from imprinting on Nosework odors at an early time in the dog's life as long as it was kept separate from other search work? 

What specialty do you recommend for a team that may be moving frequently? I definitely want to work, so are there disciplines that are more in demand than others?


The thing I am most excited about is that I can go at the dog's pace and not rush anything. With the military dogs, it was about volume first and fixing the problems that created later. I can't wait to have a dog that I can work with on it's schedule, instead of forcing everything onto the dog because it is desperately needed down range. It is the journey I am looking forward to, and I have the lifespan of the dog to continue growing as a team. This post may lead you to believe that I am going to pile a bunch of expectations on the dog the first time I get it out of the crate, which is not the case. I simply wish to have a plan and avoid creating problems for the dog later in training.

Thanks for your time and input.


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## Sarah Platts

My answers are based on my experiences. Your mileage will differ.

Yes, IMO, to much obedience will stifle a dog from getting out there and hunting. OB is all about control, SAR means some control but also being able to let the dog go. It doesn't have to be pretty, it just has to be functional. Sometimes there is to much conflict between the two and you will have to make a trade-off. I know one guy who did competition OB with his sar dog. He told me later that it was a mistake because the dog, while a good sar dog, kept expecting the handler to tell him what to do. Once I move the clip from the collar to the harness, the dog is the one running the search. He's got the nose and he's telling me what to do. It's a role reversal because I have to do what he needs to get in position or find the odor.

Good hunting games can help but now it's a handler's problem because most of the OB folks are control freaks. If you ask them do they trust their dog to work effectively out of their sight and respond correctly, most will tell you no. Just having the dog out of their sight can trigger a nervous or panic type attack. I've seen some dogs that did real well when in sight but bolted when they could to finally be able to go have some fun without being overwhelmed by their control freak handlers. 

I think if you are moving frequently, then cadaver is your best bet. That or narcotics - privately running a testing company for parents who want to shake down their child's room. Mantrailing is also an option. 
Nose work can be fine depending on odors used. I would definitely use a different search command between nosework and whatever your chosen field is.


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## Nancy Jocoy

Honestly, I think a dog with the right drives and nerve strength thrives with a lot more obedience than a lot of SAR folks give, particularly as I have read a good bit of what you have said before and believe you know how to train a dog without crushing it.

Too wore out to go into it tonight, but I really had to ramp things up with Beau because of how pushy he was/is. We still do a lot more obedience training than search training. He ranges out well, hunts independently, and does not lose focus so it has not hurt. I have had other dogs who would have been stifled by the amount I have to do with him.


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## David Winners

Thanks for the responses.

Sara, in your opinion, was it too much obedience, or too much compulsion? I know you didn't train these dogs, but in knowing the handler, would you say that they were conflicted? 

Nancy, I had to put a lot of OB on Fama, so I could keep her from biting people, and it definitely improved our relationship and the work, but... she was a great bomb dog first and obedient later, at almost 5 years old.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

I think it depends on the dog and its genetics. I work a multi venue dog-scent, herding, obedience and agility and there is nothing about her that is handler dependent. In two of those venues [scent and herding], she must take responsibility and she does. She's highly independent and like Nancy indicates, if anything, working obedience gets me in her head. But again, my work is through marker training and I'm not a control freak. I have had dogs in my training group that had little to no ability to think and do on their own due to compulsion obedience--perhaps done wrong but just saying. There is a fear of leaving the handler's side or doing anything of their own thinking. I can kick them into drive and get them to engage independently but when returned to the handler, they return to their foundation. You can do obedience without being the control freak that puts the dog in that dependent frame of mind. Control freak obedience handlers do generally give up herding and scent work because they can't control every aspect of the work. I think it takes the right dog and a handler that can switch frames of mind.

Looking more to reading more of the SAR specifics and an update on Nancy's Beau. Hopefully Jim Delbridge will chime in.

T


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## Tom Connors

I agree a dog with good genetics might handle competitive obedience just fine.

My opinion on doing nosework/scentwork is only that if you ever get called into court, an attorney could use that to make the case you can't be sure what the dog is hitting on.


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## Sarah Platts

David Winners said:


> Thanks for the responses.
> 
> Sara, in your opinion, was it too much obedience, or too much compulsion? I know you didn't train these dogs, but in knowing the handler, would you say that they were conflicted?
> 
> Nancy, I had to put a lot of OB on Fama, so I could keep her from biting people, and it definitely improved our relationship and the work, but... she was a great bomb dog first and obedient later, at almost 5 years old.


In this case, I believe it was to much OB. The dog was a Lab and maybe that had something to do with it. Later, I met a police officer who was handling a SAR GSD. The dog stayed in visual contact and the discussion turned to working independent of the handler. That guy was like 'my dog doesn't do anything unless I tell it what to do" so this was a different end of the spectrum. And, yes, that dog only did what it was directed to do. No more, no less. 

I think it depends on the dog , it's personality, and on the handler. I've seen some dogs totally crushed while others seem to roll with it. I think it depends on how the handler adapts to that dog and adjusts when moving between dogs. I have nothing against compulsion but if the handler isn't there to enforce it then that part of the equation will break down on a search when the dog gets out of the handler's sight. Hence the need a lot of people have to keep their dogs in sight.


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## julie allen

I feel if you teach independence first, then obedience separate, with a good dog you will be fine.
Personally I would not do scent detection and nosework. If searching for hours for cadaver and your dog hits birch scent he very well may alert. Dogs get tired and start looking for a reason to get that reward. He wouldn't be wrong, so I would not put him in that position. 

Tracking and Hrd would be fine if the dog is capable. We do much more Hr calls than live find here.


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## Nancy Jocoy

Well could be that the first time I spent with Beau was lots and lots of offlead walks in the woods with Grim being a great partner at setting natural boundaries for him....(a comfortable range, ignoring critters, feeling ok with being out of visual range, and coming when called) and a lot of throws with toys containing primary source....and going to a farm and learning not to chase chickens and goats and horses.......but as he got bigger, stronger, and more headstrong I had to really do a lot more obedience with him than any other dog because he would not out, he would blow me off, he would try to jump on me or push past me, etc. and was a bit too rough with play (many scratches on my arms from him wrapping his paws around them and wanting to fight). I had plenty of dogs before him but it was just in a different league.

Until he was about 8 months old, all I had really done was sit, down, don't jump, and loose leash walking.....I have never had a fear he would "take off" in the woods though and that has been real world tested several times. His house manners still leave a lot to be desired as he wants to put his nose into everything but I am not so sure I want to squash that. He details a whole building nicely on his own.


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## Sarah Platts

I think that the problem could be to much OB to young. I tend to do a lot of free walks in the woods or places just letting the pup be a pup and explore at his own pace and time. I just picked up my next puppy this last weekend and it's nice that we are at the farm for the next 2 weeks so there is lots of strangeness going on. Plus he's learning how a dog pack works and how to deal with all ages and types and pack structure. Not that he's joining it as a permanent resident but he will drift in and out with every visit and he needs to know how to behave in polite society. 

Then there's the equipment, animals, distances getting to and from the various buildings plus finding his way home again so his time is pretty much full. He's making a great transition from being a city slicker who thinks he knows everything to a country kid that actually does. I'll have to post pics sometime.


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## Sarah Platts

David Winners said:


> A couple questions for those of you experienced in SAR training:
> 
> My first question is in foundation work. I'm a very competitive person and would really like to do some competition obedience with the dog, maybe a BH or some AKC stuff. Will this get in the way of the independence needed for search work? I have washed a few SchH titled dogs from the detection program because they were glued to the handler and wouldn't work on their own. I have no idea how the OB training was put on these dogs, but I feel that compulsive methods led to a dog that was afraid to try new things on it's own for fear of a correction. They had learned that the heel position by the handler was the safe place. I believe I can avoid this pitfall.
> 
> Do you often see successful search dogs that have been trained to a high level of obedience?
> 
> Do you believe that keeping the dog ranging through find it games, while concurrent obedience training is happening, will help alleviate the velcro dog mentality seen in some SchH dogs?
> 
> My next questions are about cross training. I have read that some dogs do multiple disciplines in search work. I would like to compete in Nosework, but wouldn't want want that training to get in the way of search work.
> 
> Do you see any problems arising from imprinting on Nosework odors at an early time in the dog's life as long as it was kept separate from other search work?
> 
> What specialty do you recommend for a team that may be moving frequently? I definitely want to work, so are there disciplines that are more in demand than others?
> 
> 
> The thing I am most excited about is that I can go at the dog's pace and not rush anything. With the military dogs, it was about volume first and fixing the problems that created later. I can't wait to have a dog that I can work with on it's schedule, instead of forcing everything onto the dog because it is desperately needed down range. It is the journey I am looking forward to, and I have the lifespan of the dog to continue growing as a team. This post may lead you to believe that I am going to pile a bunch of expectations on the dog the first time I get it out of the crate, which is not the case. I simply wish to have a plan and avoid creating problems for the dog later in training.
> 
> Thanks for your time and input.


David,

What do you see as the problem or perhaps the better question is how would you solve it as far as the OB issues? 
-Do you feel the Velcro issue was because of a certain breed and training?
-If the result of training, did you see anyway to undo or mitigate it? 
-Do you feel your competitiveness could become an issue? 
-Trying to do to much or to fast with one dog instead of spread out over, let's say, 2? 
-To what level do you want to take your competitive spirit too? 
-Time for OB, time for competitions, prep time specifically for competitions, are you doing it for fun or as a serious contender, detections training time, proofing time, scenario time, traveling to trainings, certification testings, actual search time, etc. 

Then add in the fact that you will have to be doing this outside your paid job (right now you are doing it on the gov't dime, so to speak) and that takes more hours out of your day. I know you say that you are not piling on a bunch of expectations but you have a really big dream.
Would you be willing to give up one or the other aspects of this dream in order to pursue just one part of it?
I'm not doubting your ability, what I'm questioning is the time that all this takes. And the time it takes to do it well.


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## Jim Delbridge

Just got in from multiple family xmas visits. 

The comment on conflict with scent is this: If your dog's nose work might put you in court where its alert/indication was the root incentive for a search warrant, then you will be questioned by a defense attorney if your dog has been cross-trained on scents. If you must answer yes, then most likely the defense attorney will get the results of the search warrant thrown out via "fruit of the poisoned tree." At best, if such questioning arrises, it might create reasonable doubt with a jury or judge. 
Not all scent specialties run this risk, but drugs, HRD, bombs, and gun related can. Cross-training a dog in narcotics and HRD will burn you because the drug defense lawyer will claim your dog hit on blood and the defense lawyer for a murder trial will claim your dog hit on drugs.

As for obedience, that can mean many things a handler. I've only seen a few successful search dogs that did the handler face stare...Realize that the best way to train obedience on a search dog is off-lead first and on-lead as an after-thought. Directional obedience training comes in handy for rubble especially if you decide to go with a FEMA group. FEMA task forces now do live OR cadaver, but the skills testing is identical. Too much obedience on a dog can mean you can talk the dog into a false alert or out of a find, but what too much obedience is depends highly on the dog AND the handler. You have to have enough obedience to stop your dog from crossing a highway even though the scent is on the other side UNTIL you can make sure it's safe for the dog to cross to the other side (there's a chicken joke in there somewhere), but not enough obedience that the dog stops the pursuit of the scent once you release it to resume searching....so my dogs all understand the concept of "WAIT"...it's not a stay, it's a pause. I've watched many handlers that felt they had to be in total control ignore their dog racing back to them to given an alert and direct it to where the handler thought the scent source (i.e. live human) was....and painfully watched the dog do what the boss said. Each dog team has to reach a balance. 
A friend of mine that works a very good HRD dog got a BH on it without it affecting the dog. This same handler can tell when her dog isn't sure about a find simply by the speed that it starts to sit (alert). It totally befuddles me, but it definitely works for her and the dog. 
Years ago there was a term we bandied around in the search world called "intelligent disobedience". It usually comes about when the handler again decides that the scent source is one place and the scent tells the dog that it's someplace else. While it might be humbling to one's ego, we all hope the dog will safely give us the finger and have the confidence to tell the moron at the other end of the lead that the dead body is over here.

There really isn't a black and white answer to your question. It's highly dependent on dog breed, dog personality, handler personality, type of job the dog has to do, i.e. you want a bomb dog to be obedient enough not to do a touch on a source and obediently stare at what might go boom.

Sorry if I couldn't answer your question, but it's complex. I personally like a dog that's willing to give me the finger if it means a find in a safe manner for all. Competition obedience can be a wonder to behold, but too much is often in conflict with searching.

Jim Delbridge


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## David Winners

Sarah Platts said:


> In this case, I believe it was to much OB. The dog was a Lab and maybe that had something to do with it. Later, I met a police officer who was handling a SAR GSD. The dog stayed in visual contact and the discussion turned to working independent of the handler. That guy was like 'my dog doesn't do anything unless I tell it what to do" so this was a different end of the spectrum. And, yes, that dog only did what it was directed to do. No more, no less.
> 
> I think it depends on the dog , it's personality, and on the handler. I've seen some dogs totally crushed while others seem to roll with it. I think it depends on how the handler adapts to that dog and adjusts when moving between dogs. I have nothing against compulsion but if the handler isn't there to enforce it then that part of the equation will break down on a search when the dog gets out of the handler's sight. Hence the need a lot of people have to keep their dogs in sight.


Thanks Sarah,

I also believe it depends on the dog, handler and their relationship. I have met plenty of control freak handlers doing detection. I try hard to steer new handlers away from that mentality and into a more of a partnership frame of mind. IMO, when it comes to detection, I'm just there for quality control, as in, "Hey mama, you missed this area. Check over here."


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## David Winners

julie allen said:


> I feel if you teach independence first, then obedience separate, with a good dog you will be fine.
> Personally I would not do scent detection and nosework. If searching for hours for cadaver and your dog hits birch scent he very well may alert. Dogs get tired and start looking for a reason to get that reward. He wouldn't be wrong, so I would not put him in that position.
> 
> Tracking and Hrd would be fine if the dog is capable. We do much more Hr calls than live find here.


Thanks Julie,

I agree with you, and everyone else about not doing nosework and anything else that may find you in court defending the work of the team.

Don't HR handlers carry a drop aid so the dog can get paid once in a while? It's pretty standard data for the EDD and narc handlers that I know.


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## David Winners

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Well could be that the first time I spent with Beau was lots and lots of offlead walks in the woods with Grim being a great partner at setting natural boundaries for him....(a comfortable range, ignoring critters, feeling ok with being out of visual range, and coming when called) and a lot of throws with toys containing primary source....and going to a farm and learning not to chase chickens and goats and horses.......but as he got bigger, stronger, and more headstrong I had to really do a lot more obedience with him than any other dog because he would not out, he would blow me off, he would try to jump on me or push past me, etc. and was a bit too rough with play (many scratches on my arms from him wrapping his paws around them and wanting to fight). I had plenty of dogs before him but it was just in a different league.
> 
> Until he was about 8 months old, all I had really done was sit, down, don't jump, and loose leash walking.....I have never had a fear he would "take off" in the woods though and that has been real world tested several times. His house manners still leave a lot to be desired as he wants to put his nose into everything but I am not so sure I want to squash that. He details a whole building nicely on his own.


Thanks Nancy,

It looks like another vote for independence first and OB later. 

Speaking of Beau, he sounds like my kind of dog. I love pushy jerks. We seem to get along


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## David Winners

Sarah Platts said:


> David,
> 
> What do you see as the problem or perhaps the better question is how would you solve it as far as the OB issues?
> 
> *If you are referencing the lab from your above post, I would be speculating. I do have some theories, as I have seen handlers crush the independence right out of a dog.
> 
> The problems with poor ranging and lack of independence I have seen were caused by one of 2 things; either handlers that constantly tried to run the dog or handlers that forced obedience and recalls before the behaviors were fully understood and generalized.
> 
> They were always issuing commands while the dog was actively searching. If the dog's head comes up for more than a second, and it's obviously not on odor, then I will put the dog back to work. This may be a directional command or just a "Hey, get to work." For obedience, it has to be fun. I give the dog a reason to do something, not a reason to avoid something.
> 
> You ask how I would solve these issues, and my answer is to avoid them in the first place. Once a dog is under the thumb of the handler, it is pretty hard to get them out and working independently with the same handler. My questions stem from the fact that I have never trained a detection dog from a puppy. They have all been green dogs. I don't want to do my normal puppy "locked onto me" engagement and focus work if it is going to get in the way of the dog working independently. An answer would be to get a green dog instead of a puppy, or to wait until the dog has reached maturity and then just train as I have always done.
> 
> Where's the fun in that?*
> 
> 
> -Do you feel the Velcro issue was because of a certain breed and training?
> 
> *I would not blame the breed. I have worked some bad ass labs that could really do it all, outside of bitework. I would rather blame the handler for not working with the dog in the appropriate manner for it's temperament. Regardless of breed, I always train the dog in front of me. Some can get flipped out of the back of a truck with a level 10 prong correction and shake it off like nothing happened. Some you have to be careful how hard you verbally correct them, especially if you are their handler. *
> 
> 
> -If the result of training, did you see anyway to undo or mitigate it?
> 
> *The only way I see to undo the problem, if it is as I speculated above, is to change handlers. I think the dog would have to form a new relationship in which he trusted the handler to allow him to explore things and communicate his pleasure or displeasure in a manner that the dog could understand, but also in a manner that did not cause conflict with the dog.
> 
> Nope vs. leash correction.
> 
> I believe that the dog must be allowed to try things on it's own, and should be encouraged to do so. I think this builds confidence in the dog, and adds another brain to the team when solving a puzzle (like locating the source of odor).*
> 
> 
> -Do you feel your competitiveness could become an issue?
> 
> *When I was younger, absolutely. I have since learned to recognize my limitations and that of the dog I am working. Hence, this conversation. 10 years ago, I would have just got the puppy and went balls to the walls, believing in my ability to shape the dog into what I wanted. I am a lot more humble and realistic in my expectations of living creatures now.*
> 
> 
> -Trying to do to much or to fast with one dog instead of spread out over, let's say, 2?
> 
> *I really want to only add 1 dog of my own right now. The wife is getting a GR to do bedbugs, and adding 3 at the same time would be ridiculous. I have plenty of time to do all the things I want with dogs, so if the current training plan doesn't hold up because of limitations of the dog, limitations of my training capabilities, or limitations on time etc... I can totally handle that. *
> 
> 
> -To what level do you want to take your competitive spirit too?
> 
> *My competitive spirit is already at a set level... pretty high
> 
> My competitive ambitions for the dog are: search work, very high because people depend on us as a team; OB, just capable of getting a title or 2 at club levels; Nosework, national competition levels if the dog is up to it. *
> 
> 
> -Time for OB, time for competitions, prep time specifically for competitions, are you doing it for fun or as a serious contender, detections training time, proofing time, scenario time, traveling to trainings, certification testings, actual search time, etc.
> 
> *I wouldn't be active in all these events simultaneously. I totally get your point about time. I understand the maintenance training requirements of dog and handler alike. *
> 
> 
> 
> Then add in the fact that you will have to be doing this outside your paid job (right now you are doing it on the gov't dime, so to speak) and that takes more hours out of your day. I know you say that you are not piling on a bunch of expectations but you have a really big dream.
> Would you be willing to give up one or the other aspects of this dream in order to pursue just one part of it?
> 
> *Absolutely! If it's possible I would like to try all these things, because I really enjoy dogs and I'm good at it. If I need to spread this out over 20 years and 3-4 dogs, so be it. Hell, Bob is doing nosework and he's older than dirt  I should do SAR soon while my body can still take it.*
> 
> 
> I'm not doubting your ability, what I'm questioning is the time that all this takes. And the time it takes to do it well.



I have doubts myself. I am mainly concerned with the effect that training a lot of OB early in life could have on search behaviors later. If I had 4 dogs and the time, I have faith that I could be competent an just about any 4 venues. I would like to tackle more than one at once if I can though 

Thanks so much for your time Sarah.


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## David Winners

Jim Delbridge said:


> Just got in from multiple family xmas visits.
> 
> The comment on conflict with scent is this: If your dog's nose work might put you in court where its alert/indication was the root incentive for a search warrant, then you will be questioned by a defense attorney if your dog has been cross-trained on scents. If you must answer yes, then most likely the defense attorney will get the results of the search warrant thrown out via "fruit of the poisoned tree." At best, if such questioning arrises, it might create reasonable doubt with a jury or judge.
> Not all scent specialties run this risk, but drugs, HRD, bombs, and gun related can. Cross-training a dog in narcotics and HRD will burn you because the drug defense lawyer will claim your dog hit on blood and the defense lawyer for a murder trial will claim your dog hit on drugs.
> 
> *This has been a common thought. I will not be doing Nosework and SAR with the same dog.*
> 
> 
> 
> As for obedience, that can mean many things a handler. I've only seen a few successful search dogs that did the handler face stare...Realize that the best way to train obedience on a search dog is off-lead first and on-lead as an after-thought. Directional obedience training comes in handy for rubble especially if you decide to go with a FEMA group. FEMA task forces now do live OR cadaver, but the skills testing is identical. Too much obedience on a dog can mean you can talk the dog into a false alert or out of a find, but what too much obedience is depends highly on the dog AND the handler. You have to have enough obedience to stop your dog from crossing a highway even though the scent is on the other side UNTIL you can make sure it's safe for the dog to cross to the other side (there's a chicken joke in there somewhere), but not enough obedience that the dog stops the pursuit of the scent once you release it to resume searching....so my dogs all understand the concept of "WAIT"...it's not a stay, it's a pause. I've watched many handlers that felt they had to be in total control ignore their dog racing back to them to given an alert and direct it to where the handler thought the scent source (i.e. live human) was....and painfully watched the dog do what the boss said. Each dog team has to reach a balance.
> 
> *I see the effects of bossy handlers in detection regularly. I'm just quality control on the search. I do train a solid recall and down, but I'm very judicious in how I use them. If the dog is going to go into an unsafe area, I will down the dog until I can get there for guidance. If I want the dog to work back towards me to check something, I do not recall the dog. I will wait for a break in the search and encourage the dog to work back my way. When the dog is searching, I shut the hell up.*
> 
> 
> A friend of mine that works a very good HRD dog got a BH on it without it affecting the dog. This same handler can tell when her dog isn't sure about a find simply by the speed that it starts to sit (alert). It totally befuddles me, but it definitely works for her and the dog.
> 
> *I can sometimes tell if a dog is falsing, providing I have worked with the dog for a period of time. I have trained a couple of hundred detection dogs, and they all try and false at some point. A lot of dogs have a tell, and it's usually the speed of final response or their tail going batshit on odor, but not when falsing. Sometimes they look back at you to see if you are buying what they're selling instead of the focused response they were trained.*
> 
> 
> Years ago there was a term we bandied around in the search world called "intelligent disobedience". It usually comes about when the handler again decides that the scent source is one place and the scent tells the dog that it's someplace else. While it might be humbling to one's ego, we all hope the dog will safely give us the finger and have the confidence to tell the moron at the other end of the lead that the dead body is over here.
> 
> *We (meaning the people I trained with) call this "obedience to odor" and it's the greatest thing in the world. I actually train it to detection dogs using box drills and leash pressure. *
> 
> 
> 
> There really isn't a black and white answer to your question. It's highly dependent on dog breed, dog personality, handler personality, type of job the dog has to do, i.e. you want a bomb dog to be obedient enough not to do a touch on a source and obediently stare at what might go boom.
> 
> Sorry if I couldn't answer your question, but it's complex. I personally like a dog that's willing to give me the finger if it means a find in a safe manner for all. Competition obedience can be a wonder to behold, but too much is often in conflict with searching.
> 
> Jim Delbridge


Thank you very much Jim. I'm making some tentative conclusions, and probably won't have any answers for myself until I get the dog and see what it has to offer. Nothing is black and white to me, especially when it comes to dogs. I just don't want to make any more mistakes than necessary and potentially impede our success by fault of my ignorance.

I also have to decide on what venues are most logical for me to pursue. I can do Nosework and OB without any difficulty. Getting into SAR would be much more work, between required classes, equipment, scent sources, training groups and the like. But... it would be far more rewarding. I can also compete in dog sports anywhere my career takes me, but finding a SAR group that we fit into may be much more difficult.

To add to my decision criteria, there are some advanced (to me) detection techniques I started with my EDD that I would like to see though with a dog of my own. Adding anything not proven to a SAR dog could mean retiring the dog or could have disastrous consequences. I trained the behaviors separately from detection with my EDD so it wouldn't interfere with the work, but if I'm starting a dog fresh, I would like to layer them in as I set the foundation for off leash behavior.

Again, thanks for your valued time and opinion Jim.


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## Sarah Platts

David Winners said:


> *I should do SAR soon while my body can still take it.*


 Ha! I just got done with a search. Ran into a old(er) guy (late 50s-early60s) who was running a BH. Told me that when he got to old to run behind a dog, he was gonna switch to airscent because it was easier on the body.... Then when he got to old for that, he was switching to cadaver.


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## mel boschwitz

Sarah Platts said:


> Ha! I just got done with a search. Ran into a old(er) guy (late 50s-early60s) who was running a BH. Told me that when he got to old to run behind a dog, he was gonna switch to airscent because it was easier on the body.... Then when he got to old for that, he was switching to cadaver.


Lol. I've heard that. When too old for land cadaver you then switch to water cadaver. Lol

I have a friend in his 70's that still runs a bh. Just started another pup last year. Guess you are only as old as you feel.\\/


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## Nancy Jocoy

I do agree with the no other nosework and, to be honest, if I were going to do another discipline with a cadaver dog, I think it would be trailing but....trailing is a bit more athletic than I am prepared to do properly.

Some folks have done airscent just fine with a cadaver dog but I like the the idea that my dog only has one thing on his mind when he gets out of the car. If I wanted to do airscent I think I would just have two dogs. 

As is, we have learned the hard way, to always take the cadaver dogs to any search because you never know how things will change. Mainly follow up on reported strange behaviors of the air scent dogs.


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## julie allen

David Winners said:


> Thanks Julie,
> 
> I agree with you, and everyone else about not doing nosework and anything else that may find you in court defending the work of the team.
> 
> Don't HR handlers carry a drop aid so the dog can get paid once in a while? It's pretty standard data for the EDD and narc handlers that I know.


I don't. I train lots of negative areas so the dog expects that working. I have seen dogs false alert because they expect to find something every search. 
If I notice the dog getting frustrated, we take a break, play fetch, get fired back up and go again.


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## Nancy Jocoy

I also do not carry a drop aid. The issue with Sandy Anderson planting bones on real searches has made a lot of handlers hesitate to carry anything with them on a search. I do know folks who carry a Q-tip in a plastic vial but it is so dissimilar to what you are looking for usually that I hesitate. 

Usually will hit a quick hide before leaving the house based on what I am going to be searching for, then doing one when we get home.

But lots of negative training. We reward the dogs for working, well ...... a bit of fetch at the end of a search area ..... not nearly as intense as the reward (tug for most of our dogs) for finding a hide. We would not reward on a search either unless it was exceedingly obvious the dog found what you were looking for.


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## Sarah Platts

David Winners said:


> Don't HR handlers carry a drop aid so the dog can get paid once in a while? It's pretty standard data for the EDD and narc handlers that I know.


I used to but no longer on searches. I'll do what Nancy does and do a quickie at the house. *If* I do carry it's scent pads only. No physical material.

Sande changed the HR community and it's taken a long time for us to recover that lost ground. You always read in the history books of a seminal event that caused a change in something. Well, Sande was ours. Last I heard she's back in the business and responded to some of the tornado searches. Why she was not banned from HR work as part of the court settlement I'll never know.


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## julie allen

Lol, kind of off topic, but we trained near a local park in a wooded area. Had lots of good source out. Worked dogs, picked up source, and the very next morning the had a massive search team (won't name them) camp at that park and search on a cold case! Oops!


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## Sarah Platts

kinda had the same thing. Was looking over an area to use for potential long term buried problems but hadn't gotten around to doing the actual shovel work when I get the call to look for a 30yo grave site in the exact same area. Figure the odds but I'm sure glad I didn't have anything out.


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## Bob Scott

I agree about the dog having the right stuff for the job. 
I'm very demanding about what I expect form my dogs but that doesn't mean it has to be compulsion. My old SAR dog, also Sch III, AKC ob and herding is always responsive to whatever I want but he's never been anywhere near being velcro dog. When he's on scent he has always been extremely focused and I need to give firm commands when he's on scent or he would easily ignore me. 
All of his training has been reward based marker training. 
My younger GSD is super handler soft and easily distracted. Great pet, very responsive and probably could be an excellent OB dog but he would never make a reliable detection dog for anything but games such as K9 nose work.
He's not a vlecro dog either. Out in the field or woods I need to keep checking him with "to far" or he'd try and see where the sun sets.


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## Tom Connors

Sarah Platts said:


> I used to but no longer on searches. I'll do what Nancy does and do a quickie at the house. *If* I do carry it's scent pads only. No physical material.
> 
> Sande changed the HR community and it's taken a long time for us to recover that lost ground. You always read in the history books of a seminal event that caused a change in something. Well, Sande was ours. Last I heard she's back in the business and responded to some of the tornado searches. Why she was not banned from HR work as part of the court settlement I'll never know.


You have got to be kidding me! Sande Anderson is out there working dogs again? Wow, someone is crazy...not sure who!


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