# Opinions on this pedigree



## Elisabeth Parent (May 5, 2010)

I have already gotten some very good advice from people I trust and admire but was looking for some other honest opinions about a particular breeding I am considering. 

Please NO BASHING as I am just looking for information on what this pairing will bring forth in terms of temperament, biddability/obedience, thresholds, civil/sharpness, etc.

The pups are already about 9-10 weeks old and I have met the parents several times and am very pleased with their other off spring from the previous litter. 

The puppy will be for schutzhund mainly but I also like to dabble in other sports such as agility, herding, fly-ball and a few others that catch my interest.

Here is the mating:

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/para.utkoma?fadir=593372&modir=681044


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

What kennel is it from ??


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

http://www.racethewindstables.ca/dogs.html


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

You do not seem to be very serious about Sch, (not bashing) it sounds like you are looking to wander the earth and do a bunch of stuff.

If he takes after some of those Czech dogs you might have a lot on your hands. Or not. 

There you go, pedigree reading at its finest !


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

The male in his pictures looks narrow chested and he toes out, so I don't like his conformation. He's also way over size for a working dog. 

Plus the titles on him are pretty lame. I have Rally titles and a CD on my Mal. Not bragging - I worked hard to get them, but they're not that hard to get and I don't train or breed for a living.

If you like the dogs you see, then go for it, but if you want to do more than dabble in schutzhund with a half-assed dog, choose a breeder that breeds something more than nice pet dogs.


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

Leslie I do agree with the lameness of the Rally titles. Drives me crazy to see Rally advertised as a “working title”! 

Pedigree wise, we have a Norbo son working at our club now, he is about 6 months, and if his nerve comes up he might be good, the aggression is in him but right now it is fear based but I have seen this sort of dog turn out to be very good if the nerves can handle the defense the dog has.
Another Norbo son I know of, same issues with fear aggression, but as an adult, so if the nerves aren’t there you might be stuck with a crapper.


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## Elisabeth Parent (May 5, 2010)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> You do not seem to be very serious about Sch, (not bashing) it sounds like you are looking to wander the earth and do a bunch of stuff.
> 
> If he takes after some of those Czech dogs you might have a lot on your hands. Or not.
> 
> There you go, pedigree reading at its finest !


It's not that I am not serious about schutzhund, it's that I don't know enough yet to make decisions like this without asking for help.

I enjoy training in schutzhund, but it is also not my whole life. I enjoy being out with my dog, trying new things and allowing him to experience different venues.

I currently have a show and working mixed line dog and he is very hard to work with. He doesn't have a high toy or food drive, he lacks biddability and shuts down quite easily. I love my boy to death, but he isn't the best working partner (your definition of working and mine are probably different and that's okay with me).

I am looking for a dog who will be enthusiastic to work, high food and toy drive, medium to low thresholds, sound nerve, and who will easier to work than my male. I am very new to the sport world and although I grew up with GSD's my whole life (my Dad participated in agility with our previous GSD's) my male is *my* first dog and I am learning.

I have thought about going to the WG working lines as they tend to be more of what I am looking for it sounds but had an opportunity to meet and fall in love with these dogs and a few of their off spring and thought I would see if this is a breeding that could potentially give me what I am looking for.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

how do the parents work in Schutzhund????


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Can your training director or other experienced person in your club go to evaluate the pups or parents? Tell them to be brutally honest and objective. Puppy evaluations are no guarantee, but it's valuable to have a knowledgeable person so you're less likely to end up with a pup that might be a fine pet, but not a good worker.


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## Elisabeth Parent (May 5, 2010)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Can your training director or other experienced person in your club go to evaluate the pups or parents? Tell them to be brutally honest and objective. Puppy evaluations are no guarantee, but it's valuable to have a knowledgeable person so you're less likely to end up with a pup that might be a fine pet, but not a good worker.


Yes, I have several people who are knowledgeable enough (and honest enough) who can evaluate the litter. I was able to "babysit" one of the previous off spring and have her evaluated by our TD who saw great potential in her. I also have met another from the same previous litter who I think shows great promise at least in the obedience phase, as the owner doesn't work him but would like too.


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## Elisabeth Parent (May 5, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> how do the parents work in Schutzhund????


I didn't say they did.. not sure where you misunderstood that.

I said, they work in other venues (obedience) and that our "working definition" may be different which is fine by me.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

They are breeding over-sized untitled GSDs. This is what the website has to say...

_Lexi has produced just an outstanding litter of extra, extra large babies!
She is a wonderful mother and doing a great job!
The puppies are varying shades of sable, mahogany to black sable.
with gorgeous pigment, toe stencilling and tar heels.
These puppies will have the awesome working qualities of both their parents,
along with stable temperaments and great drive levels._

Emphasis on size and appearance. What working qualities of the parents are the pups going to inherit? Zero schutzhund titles on either side, not even a BH.

If this breeding sounds like a good prospect to you and your TD is willing to work with the dog, then fill yer boots, but there are a lot of nice working line dogs being bred in Ontario that will take you further in the sport and still be a good companion dog.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I think that was kind of his point though...you want a dog that can do the work, but you seem smitten by this litter that has unproven parents. Seem like maybe nice pets and maybe they can work and maybe they can't, but if you don't want to end up with another pet, look for proven working parents. They don't have to be Bundesieger champions either, but proven parents will give a higher likelihood for getting what you want. Otherwise, you might as well go pick a shepherd out of a shelter.

As you continue to train, you'll see other people with nicer dogs that are bred and proven for that purpose that will progress faster and easier. Even if you don't have any desire to go to national level competition, that's not always fun. It sounds like you want a nice club level dog you can learn with, but if you end up with a dud, you'll have to go with another dog and the pup you purchased will just end up sitting at home, which is not fair for it either. If you aren't willing to sell a dog that doesn't work, buy the very best dog you can afford at the time that will give you the highest probability of succeeding. Just something to think about.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Elisabeth Parent said:


> I didn't say they did.. not sure where you misunderstood that.
> 
> I said, they work in other venues (obedience) and that our "working definition" may be different which is fine by me.


I did not misunderstand...I missed that part...where did you say that? I double checked and could not find where you said that...

How many of the offspring from the previous litters from "Shep" are doing sch? and have been able to see any of them in training or trials?

looking at a pup or a sub-adult from previous litters and evaluating based on "promising for OB" is not gonna tell you much...

the questions you are asking nobody can really answer for you...

so far the guess here has been that there "may" be a nerve issue.

I looked all over that site and could find many references to how beautiful the colors are and the sizes are...

and that the puppies will possess the Awesome WORKING qualities of BOTH parents..

the awesomeness of the working qualities are displayed through Rally OB, and a herding instinct test for the male.

For the female we have a description that the dog excels at tracking and OB...


How many Sch titled dogs has this Stud produced? That should be the question...

If you want a "beautiful" nice colored dog, that may be able to be titled in SCH, an may not then I say go for it, but to me it sounds like you will be having the same troubles you are having with your current show X working line dog..you have one "starter" dog already...


Has either parent done bitework at all? Is there video of either parent doing bitework? Will the breeder let you bring a Sch helper or trainer out to "test" the Sire and Dam for working qualities? Test the adults first, then the pups...that will tell you WAY more what to expect than a puppy test alone..

If they let you test the parents and they work, chances are a little better. 
If they do not let anyone test the dogs, or at least demonstrate the AWESOMENESS of them...I would not walk away, I would RUN...unless you just want a nice beautiful pet that does OB...

NOT BASHING...


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## Adi Ibrahimbegovic (Nov 21, 2008)

to the op: you have gotten some very balanced and nice responses so far. even jeff who can be an ass has restrained himself and gave you some fair food for thought.

as far as the litter goes, WILL THEY work in sch or not - it's one big fat maybe.

my hunch is, you already have a dog of similar outcome and the pedigree of these dogs tells me as yoda would say: "The Force is cloudy on the future of this boy, padawan".

so, if you choose the puppy and it doesn't work out, as it's quite possible it may be the case, then you are stuck with 2 dogs that are nice pets and you are back to square one.

it would be a whole lot easier to get a pup from a proven, proven, proven producers of sch offspring. 

Trust me, from experience, it's a whole lot easier NOT to do sch (if you chose so, later down the road) with a dog that for sure CAN do it, but you just choose not to, for whatever reason, then... to try to do it with an animal that doesn't really have it in it to do it. I hope that makes sense.

Also, don't get hung up on being "obligated"on that one litter, cause they look "so cute". Look at other litters, especially proven parents. Every GSD puppy is "cute", while being a puppy, even a crapper. GSD puppy is a chick magnet for single guys hitting on them, so every one of them is adorable.

it's what to do after they get bigger and mature more is what you are after. they will only be puppies for a very short fleeting amount of time - then what? An 80 lbs lug in the house again...

if i were you, i would have done a brutally honest talk with myself... am i serious I want do do this and pursue sch and maybe something else? if the answer is yes, then don't show up to a gunfight with a knife - get a gun - you have a better chance at making it.

Again, from the experience... If the dog has no "drive" (meaning innate desire to do something)... if the dog will not work for food treats, ball thrown, tug of war played, even petting or verbal praise - then what's left to make him/her do something? 

What's left is force - you force them and MAKE THEM by using force to do what you want them to do and that really is not fair to the dog and is kind of abusive.

A skinny white dude will not make it as a linebacker in NFL or good college football program, no matter how much you beat him up with a stick and make him train... Lame - ish example, I know, but it's Friday and I am ready to jet out.

Either way I hope this helps and best of luck with whatever you choose.

If I were you and I really wanted to give SCh or any other sport a try, I'd skip this litter and get a dog that can do it, was bred to do it and last but not least enjoys and WANTS to do it.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

There is a difference between being blunt and being an ass. I am blunt. If I was an ass, I would threaten to drive up and kick the crap out of your dogs. 

Quote: I have thought about going to the WG working lines as they tend to be more of what I am looking for it sounds but had an opportunity to meet and fall in love with these dogs and a few of their off spring and thought I would see if this is a breeding that could potentially give me what I am looking for.


Puppyitis is something that is very very easy to get. They are all cute and special when you are under it's spell. It is very easy to pick the cute one chewing on your fingers and rolling around in your lap.

Remember your current dog when you went to get him ? He was cute as **** as well. Try and bring someone with you to put the block on the puppyitis. Someone that does sport preferably. Pay them if you have to.

I know I am one of the breeders that if you say you are looking for a dog to do what you are wanting to do, and the pup that is your obvious favorite is not the one, I will just tell you outright that I will not sell you that pup. I will sell you THIS pup, but that one is not what you are looking for because.............. well, I said so. LOL

I have a bunch of pups left, as I did not feel that the people that came for some of them had what it took to deal with them when they grew up.

Texas is one of the top states I have lived in for dumping dogs in the middle of nowhere, and good luck dog. So, I could have just taken the money, but why ? THAT is the other type of breeder you should be looking for. One that will take the hit, despite hard economic times.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

I don't have anything against the breeder but not even one picture of one of their dogs biting a tug:-k, its unfortunate that GSDs appeal to a lot of people that want to breed pets, obedience champions:-(. For someone breeding working GSDs SCH titles are the least you can do.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Only really know of two dogs on dads side which are decent dogs, but moms side is loaded with strong ass dogs for the GSD breed, looking at the parents I can say they originally were own by Jiri of www.jinopo.cz . Sorry can't comment more do to the fact of poor knowledge of dads side to what would be produced, I be lying if I said otherwise, all I can say though just to repeat myself is moms genetics are stacked nice.


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## Adi Ibrahimbegovic (Nov 21, 2008)

actualy as far as pedigree you are right. i only looked at the breeder's website. now, that I looked at it, there are some nice dogs in there.

but, i mostly look at the parents and grandparents first, if that is strong, then the rest of it. far back pedigree seems good enough on paper, but parents are not worked in sch obviously.

could they be? that's the answer for somebody knowledgeable to get there with her and see what's up.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re: "I am just looking for information on what this pairing will bring forth in terms of temperament, biddability/obedience, thresholds, civil/sharpness, etc."
>>>no way a pedigree check will provide answers to these Q's unless the "evaluator" knows the dogs listed......titles don't always indicate : "temperament, biddability/obedience, thresholds, civil/sharpness"
- have you evaluated the sire and dam individually for each one of your specific criteria that you listed or just seen em hanging around ? if neither have current SchH titles, and the breeders are not active in SchH, why would you expect the pups to excel in SchH ?

The pups are already about 9-10 weeks old and I have met the parents several times and am very pleased with their other off spring from the previous litter. 
>>> forget the other litters and start evaluating these pups on a frequent basis with an objective clear head.....window is closing, but if you do not have experience in evaluating pups, pay for someone who has the credentials and it will probably be worth your expense

The puppy will be for schutzhund mainly but I also like to dabble in other sports such as agility, herding, fly-ball and a few others that catch my interest.
>>> no way i can see how u can "focus on SchH mainly", and still dabble in at least three other activities unless you have a heck of a lot of free time and lots of training experience and no other dogs to take care of...


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## Rachel Kilburn (May 12, 2010)

In my opinion puppies can be crap shoots, you can look at the pedigree all you want but the fact of the matter is in every litter there will be some that will work and a few that are going to be pets, not that there aren't litters out there in which every puppy works. My suggestion would be to find a young GSD maybe about 1-2 years old that has already been started in Sch and go from there if this is your first working dog I wouldn't suggest a puppy but that's just me.


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