# Raw diet and urinary bleeding???



## greg wilson (Mar 17, 2009)

My male AB has been urinating blood. I took him to the vet and got some antibiotics. The vet said she was not a fan of the raw diet but it should not cause this.

BUT, I just started adding venison into his diet about a week before. Does anyone know if this (wild game) could cause any urinary bleeding??


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

just went through over 500lbs of venison...all wild, no problems.

So you went to a Vet because dog is sick, they said they did not like Raw, but most likely did not cause the alignment, did not really tell you anything, accepted your money....and here you are asking on the Working dog forum and your dog is still ill.... Not good.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

have your vet do a blood test and test his protien levels. if dogs have bad kidneys then the added protien levels of raw meat can cause bloody urine.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

greg wilson said:


> My male AB has been urinating blood. I took him to the vet and got some antibiotics. The vet said she was not a fan of the raw diet but it should not cause this.
> 
> BUT, I just started adding venison into his diet about a week before. Does anyone know if this (wild game) could cause any urinary bleeding??


My first thought would be a possible problem with his prostate. You didn't say how old the dog was or if he's intact but without that information it's difficult to know if that's a possibility.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

greg wilson said:


> My male AB has been urinating blood. I took him to the vet and got some antibiotics. The vet said she was not a fan of the raw diet but it should not cause this.
> 
> BUT, I just started adding venison into his diet about a week before. Does anyone know if this (wild game) could cause any urinary bleeding??


What did you have done at the vet? Bloodwork?


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

James Downey said:


> just went through over 500lbs of venison...all wild, no problems.
> 
> So you went to a Vet because dog is sick, they said they did not like Raw, but most likely did not cause the alignment, did not really tell you anything, accepted your money....and here you are asking on the Working dog forum and your dog is still ill.... Not good.



Agreed...so what *did* your vet say? What diagnostics did they do? Even the best vet can't diagnose you over the internet.

Mike, blood in the urine has nothing to do with the high protein levels in the meat, even with kidney failure. A dog with kidney failure (renal azotemia) will have very dilute urine because the kidney's job is to concentrate urine. But there should not be blood. The reasons for blood in the urine are things like trauma, cystitis/urinary tract infection, toxicity, neoplasia, etc.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Agreed...so what *did* your vet say? What diagnostics did they do? Even the best vet can't diagnose you over the internet.
> 
> Mike, blood in the urine has nothing to do with the high protein levels in the meat, even with kidney failure. A dog with kidney failure (renal azotemia) will have very dilute urine because the kidney's job is to concentrate urine. But there should not be blood. The reasons for blood in the urine are things like trauma, cystitis/urinary tract infection, toxicity, neoplasia, etc.


And this is why I should never be allowed to answer medical questions over the internet. :smile:
I thought that I remembered hearing a vet say something about bloody urine can be a problem if the protien levels are too high, or something. Maybe that was a sales pitch to sell Science Diet KD at $100 per bag. LOL


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

It's all good, Mike. Even I have to be really careful what I say online cause I'm not yet done with school and internet diagnosis is a very very tricky thing! :-k But just in case I see one of the internal medicine attendings around, I'll triple check on the blood in the urine thing.


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

my daughter and niece have thinbasement membrane disease. my nieces kidneys started to shut down recently and the doctor had her cut out protein to help her kidneys out. both of them have blood in their urine my daughters is microscopic my nieces is macroscopic you can see blood in it. high protein does not cause it but it does make it harder on the kidneys. my daughters blood in her urine goes up when she gets sick.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I asked one of our faculty who is board certified in internal medicine this morning and she didn't think there would be a direct reason for a high protein diet causing blood in the kidney. Once again though, we would need to know what diagnostics were run to know for sure it was blood.


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

Someone that has glomerular nephrytis sp? Lose the ability to process protein so it builds up in the body. A lot of people with kidney problems will have blood in their urine. That is why a low protein diet is prescribed to someone with kidney problems. When the Adkins diet became popular people made the assumption that a high protein diet would damage the kidneys. That isn’t the case. A low protein diet will help someone with kidney problems. IMO to me this is the reason why hip dysplasia wont ever be fixed in dogs. People think the answer to bad hips is to restrict feed, restrict exercise and things like that. When really if a dog has genetically good hips they shouldn’t have a problem with it.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Is your dog ' hankering ' for a local bitch who is in heat ?, is it blood in the urine or is it bleeding from the penis?


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

jamie lind said:


> Someone that has glomerular nephrytis sp? Lose the ability to process protein so it builds up in the body. A lot of people with kidney problems will have blood in their urine. That is why a low protein diet is prescribed to someone with kidney problems. When the Adkins diet became popular people made the assumption that a high protein diet would damage the kidneys. That isn’t the case. A low protein diet will help someone with kidney problems. IMO to me this is the reason why hip dysplasia wont ever be fixed in dogs. People think the answer to bad hips is to restrict feed, restrict exercise and things like that. When really if a dog has genetically good hips they shouldn’t have a problem with it.


I'm sorry, but your post makes like zero sense. I am not being trained as a human doctor, but once again, dogs with "kidney problems" shouldn't have blood randomly in their urine unless it's from trauma, toxicity, etc. Glomerulonephritis is an imflammatory process and is not the same thing as chronic renal disease commonly seen in older cats and dogs. In glomerulonephritis, protein is lost through the kidneys, not blood, which is why it's a type of protein losing nephropathy. So I still fail to see the connection as they are not the same thing. Chronic renal disease benefits from low protein diets. And it's not strictly the protein per se, it's the uremic acids and phosphorus that builds up and can't be filtered out of the blood into the urine that's the problem. 

And your second statement is patently untrue. Just on Monday, I had a 9 year old female chocolate lab present for chronic arthritis to our orthopaedic service at our teaching hospital. The dog's parents were OFA good and excellent. The dog literally had the WORST hip dysplasia and degenerative joint disease that our surgery resident had ever seen. Like the proliferation and arthritic changes around both hip joints almost looked like cancer, but weren't. I wish I could post the radiographs but I can't due to patient confidentiality. But these were some truly awful hips and the dog will be getting at least one total hip replacement in the near future. Hip dysplasia is multifactorial and both genetic and environmental in nature.


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## Audrey Pleiss (May 8, 2009)

I have only heard of one dog with bloody pee. Prostrate cancer. Did you vet take a sample?


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

I'm sorry, but your post makes like zero sense. I am not being trained as a human doctor, but once again, dogs with "kidney problems" shouldn't have blood randomly in their urine unless it's from trauma, toxicity, etc. Glomerulonephritis is an imflammatory process and is not the same thing as chronic renal disease commonly seen in older cats and dogs. In glomerulonephritis, protein is lost through the kidneys, not blood, which is why it's a type of protein losing nephropathy. So I still fail to see the connection as they are not the same thing. 


http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/blood-in-urine/DS01013/DSECTION=causes

Microscopic urinary bleeding is a common symptom of glomerulonephritis, which causes inflammation of the kidneys' filtering system. Glomerulonephritis may be part of a systemic disease, such as diabetes, or it can occur on its own. It can be triggered by viral or strep infections, blood vessel diseases (vasculitis), and immune problems such as IgA nephropathy, which affects the small capillaries that filter blood in the kidneys (glomeruli). 

i dont know if you consider the mayo clinic a good source. i also have to see dr clifford Kashton at the U of MN multiple times a year regarding my daughter he is one of the leading ped. nephroligists in the country. He claims my daughters blood in her urine comes from kidney disease. Maybe you can help me figure it out if you think he is wrong.


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

"Chronic renal disease benefits from low protein diets. And it's not strictly the protein per se, it's the uremic acids and phosphorus that builds up and can't be filtered out of the blood into the urine that's the problem. "



"When protein is ingested and used by the body, protein waste products are created. Healthy kidneys have millions of nephrons that can filter this waste. It is then removed from the body in the urine. Healthy kidneys can easily remove protein waste, even when very large amounts of protein are eaten.
Unhealthy kidneys lose the ability to remove protein waste. Protein waste starts to build up in the blood. As kidney function continues to decline, more waste accumulates. Blood tests that measure protein waste include blood urea nitrogen (BUN) and creatinine"

http://www.davita.com/diet-and-nutrition/c/480

uremic acids is the waste from breaking down protein


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

i didnt mention dogs or cats. i purpose of my post was to explain how the rumor got started that high protein diets damage the kidneys


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

"The dog's parents were OFA good and excellent. The dog literally had the WORST hip dysplasia and degenerative joint disease that our surgery resident had ever seen. Like the proliferation and arthritic changes around both hip joints almost looked like cancer, but weren't. I wish I could post the radiographs but I can't due to patient confidentiality. But these were some truly awful hips and the dog will be getting at least one total hip replacement in the near future. Hip dysplasia is multifactorial and both genetic and environmental in nature."

my wifes mom and dad have brown eyes half of their kids have blue. just because the parents had good hips doesnt mean its not genetic. i dont know of any breeders that are trying to breed enviromental hip dysplasia out of their dogs. If you know of any let me know they must be one hell of a breeder.


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

Its been touched upon, but (for humans) the belief that a high protein diet is bad for the kidneys is one of the biggest health myths there is.....no research ever done that shows there is any issue on healthy kidneys


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

Maren, can a dog get Rhabdomyolisis- where it would turn the color of the urine to appear bloody?
If say the dog was injured, or trained severely hard...?

( for those non-medical people, it is a breakdown of skeletal muscle, usually seen after injury to a muscle tissue, or for example someone that has fallen down, and has not been able to get up over a long period of time...like a day or more, or someone badly burned- see it a lot in trauma patients...the breakdown of the muscle tissue- breaks down the muscle cells- and releases the cells myoglobin into the blood stream, which is filtered by the kidneys-but the myoglobins are harmful to the kidneys-makes the urine look dark red/brown in color and can cause acute renal failure)


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## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

Mo here is some stuff realting to that
http://www.sleddogcentral.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=813&SearchTerms=rhabdomyolysis
There are a few other threads on myopathy and rhabdomyolysis is you do a search on SDC also.


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

thank Lynn- pretty interesting!


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

jamie lind said:


> "The dog's parents were OFA good and excellent. The dog literally had the WORST hip dysplasia and degenerative joint disease that our surgery resident had ever seen. Like the proliferation and arthritic changes around both hip joints almost looked like cancer, but weren't. I wish I could post the radiographs but I can't due to patient confidentiality. But these were some truly awful hips and the dog will be getting at least one total hip replacement in the near future. Hip dysplasia is multifactorial and both genetic and environmental in nature."
> 
> my wifes mom and dad have brown eyes half of their kids have blue. just because the parents had good hips doesnt mean its not genetic. i dont know of any breeders that are trying to breed enviromental hip dysplasia out of their dogs. If you know of any let me know they must be one hell of a breeder.


Sorry I missed these...was away for Christmas and just started a new externship (mostly on rehab medicine) yesterday, so been a bit busy. Anyways, eye color is controlled by multiple genes in humans. It's not simple dominant/recessive in humans. Just like hip dysplasia is likely controlled by multiple genes AND environment, as I previously said. What breeders can do to prevent hip dysplasia in their lines is not only checking their breeding stock, but encouraging their puppy buyers to keep their puppy lean as it grows.

Mo, yeah, absolutely it's possibly to see exertional rhabdomyolysis, but it's typically seen in extreme exertion in both dogs and horses who compete in distance events (like dog sled racing). Sometimes you can also see it in ruminants like cattle who have been down with something like milk fever and can't get up, so they end up doing damage to their muscles by their sheer mass. Likewise, if an animal or human had severe muscle damage from a traumatic incident. At either rate, you would need to do a urine analysis and blood chemistry panel to be sure...speaking of which, has the OP ever posted again saying what was done? :?


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

thanks Maren for the follow up, Lynn also directed me to an interesting site.

'.._.speaking of which, has the OP ever posted again saying what was done?







_'looking back....don't think we have had any further response from the OP


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