# What more to do?



## Jennifer Sider (Oct 8, 2006)

I have a large breed, late maturing bitch.
She is 1 year.
Up until now we've been doing really well with obed; even to the point of off-lead in non-distraction situations.
She would down, sit - from about 5-15 feet away, very attentive heel on and off lead and recall from about 1/8 mile great! She was so good I took off the prong and went to a fur saver (long hair).

Now she has suffered a serious brain fart; I'm thinking it's teenager-hood, since she wasn't quite this obstinate even when she was coming into season (at about 9 mos.) She's now back on the prong.

Now I'm getting bitched at for corrections - half eyes, lifted lip and yes I'll admit I was unfair when she first started bitching at me; but now I've softened up a bit; she has elevated her response to what she thinks is unfair (and it's not; I truly have reevaluated when/what for I'm correcting).

She also has a serious case of NMHOB - she whines and wants everyone to come and pet her; she's obno about it; if they stand just off from her; she actually reaches out with her forelegs and pulls them towards her (she's big about 100 lbs, I need her to knock it off). She also desperately to the point of major annoyance (to me anyway) wants to play with EVERY dog we see.

My trainer has advised lots of long line Kohler type set ups with very little conscious correction on my part; more along the line of; oh I turned left and your shoulder was in the way; sorry I checked you; and oh you weren't paying attention and I accidently turned and ran in the opposite direction.
She actually responds quite well to this type of work; she will do quite a pretty and focussed fuss for a long walk (about 30 minutes) after a few minutes of this at the beginning.
She has however become very line savvy; I'm buying some smaller line at the store today hoping it will set her up more; but does anyone have any other suggestions? Specific situational setups are requested.

We will consider an e-collar; but she truly is still a puppy and don't want to mess up her head; she may need that in time.


----------



## Amanda Layne (Aug 9, 2006)

I am pretty new to dog training, but IMO asking a 1 yr old (or really any age) dog to heel perfectly for 30 minutes is asking alot. I try to keep my training sessions really short. As my dog progresses they get longer.

She is still really young and has alot of puppy left in her. Are you training her for sport? 

I think there is a time and place for distractions, but make sure that she knows what you are asking of her before you put her in that situation. Dont set up for failure. 

Like I said, Im pretty new to all of this myself, so take it for what its worth. 

Good Luck


----------



## Jennifer Sider (Oct 8, 2006)

*Thanks Amanda*

that's what what so neat before; she loves to heel like that; big grin on her face; looking up; keeping an eye on you; not schutzhund perfect; but a decent UCD score. I wouldn't "ask" per se; but after a lot of walks where I focussed on her position (no collar corrections; but in about and about turns) she thinks its fun; and she still does. She will jump turn for an inabout turn and look you in the eye while doing it. You can slow to a crawl and she will slow, break into a run and she stays exactly with you, shuffle around and she shuffles too. Pretty neat for a big dog.

She knows sit, down, stay, leave it, out; etc.; perhaps I need to sit back now and enjoy my doggers and let her grow. And while I'm waiting for her to grow up; keep her on a long line since her off-leash skills are lacking right now.

Her breeding is a defensive guard, so eventually she will be tested by an experienced decoy who is familiar with her breed to determine breed appropriate response (and so I can see what I have; and what I need to keep an eye on.)

She will never be a "sport" dog; but she will be in UKC Obedience competition. 
It is very funny though; she will attend class with my trainer; and does all commands well in a group situation; so maybe she's just trying to show her independence in real world situations; while in a ring she will be fine.

Any other suggestions are also welcome.


----------



## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Sounds like she might be stressed since she is a late maturing dog. You might want to ease up on the ob (shorter training sessions). Also, I don't know how you work ob, but I always have a ball on a rope or a jute roll & only fuss a short bit then give a bite & play then out & repeat. At one year I don't want anything negative with ob or tracking.


----------



## Jennifer Sider (Oct 8, 2006)

*Thanks Susan*

I think I will do just that; make stuff shorter and more fun; I think that's why she's being snippy with me.

I'm also hoping that the more fun stuff we do; the more I can ignore the jerky stuff and the less corrections overall.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Quote; "She was so good I took off the prong and went to a fur saver". 

Sounds to me like the dog is collar wise. 

She started acting up with the fursaver and now she's back on the prong. 

At one yrs old, I don't think the dog was "so good" to take off the prong. I think she was just "under control" with the prong. That has nothing to do with being trained.

When you took it off, you taught her she could resist control without the corrections she got from the prong.

I'm very much for totally motivational training, but regardless of methods, it's all about climbing the training ladder one step at a time. 

Go back to the start and have fun with her. She's still a puppy.

I also think 30 mins of heeling is to much for ANY level of training, much less a 1yr old youngster. I prefer 3-4 mins, 3-4-5 times a day.
A 30 min training session even covering most of what the dog knows is to long.

BTW, what is her breed?


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> ..... I prefer 3-4 mins, 3-4-5 times a day. ... A 30 min training session even covering most of what the dog knows is to long.....


Ditto.

Short and sweet, no one getting frustrated, and leave 'em wanting more.


----------



## Jennifer Sider (Oct 8, 2006)

*Hey Bob*

What would you suggest?

I truly don't ask for a heel now when we walk; that's where she places her self; and since she's back on the prong I think; when I give her her release word she won't leave position. 

Should I do a few minutes of focussed work (like you said 3-4) and then reattach the line to her fur saver? She might be more prone to leaving heel position at that point?

BTW she's not unhappy about being beside me; no stress; just keeps the position very well.

Or after a couple rounds of obed, should I just free her and ignore her?

I think she's a bit confused since we were spending most of our time walking off lead and now she's got a constant line on. It's been 3 days since she's been on the long line; maybe just giving it more time for her to figure out this is the new status quo?

And BTW she's a Central Asian Shepherd.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I like gradually building, but then again, I am doing a specific sport. So eventually I am going to need to have control of the dog for 45 minutes or more at the ring three level. 

Whatever you are doing, my guess would be work toward that goal. I do not believe in staying at short periods all the time, but getting correct work is important. So you need to find your balance for what it is you are trying to accomplish. 

I thought these dogs needed no training and didn't like to train :wink: :lol:


----------



## Jennifer Sider (Oct 8, 2006)

*Had fun at quarry today;*

and all dogs need training; even the mythical ones :roll: 

Honestly, I post here because I am serious about trying to make my dog the best she can be; I choose not to get into performance discussions with non-performance people.

Anyway; went to quarry today for hour walkabout; had a very light 30 ft. long line on Kimmy; she still stays at heel without asking; but we got to playing and having fast Malinois type downs; as opposed to mastiffy slow slouches; she likes to play with a ball tug toy and likes to wrestle a bit, so we'd walk, run, run on the ice, down, sit, stand (which was nice since I've been using hand signals for down/sit/stand-and was trying to get away from the use of handgestures + voice) ta da; down sit stand - no change in position from me, no hand gestures. Yay! :lol: 

Anyway after seeing her reaction today I think I was making it too serious for her; she has been avoiding eye contact with me for obedience stuff in the house; today in the open with some play interspersed she was really on; very fired up and WITH me; partners with me, not just some dog I was making do things, it was a nice feeling.

I think I know where I'm going with her, I'm visiting my trainer this week for some stuff to work on; but she had even mentioned to me about using the toy to get some faster sits and downs; the stand has been a bonus.

Thanks guys for all your well-proposed ideas.

8)


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

*Re: Had fun at quarry today;*



Jennifer Sider said:


> I choose not to get into performance discussions with non-performance people....


 :-k :?:


----------



## Jennifer Sider (Oct 8, 2006)

*This is a performance board*

thus I ask questions from people with performance/working backgrounds; as opposed to some boards that Jeff O and I frequent (purely coincidentally) where the notion that a Central Asian Shepherd might like training and might like to be trained is viewed as blasphemy because dogs of the Ovcharka type do not NEED training; so say plenty of breed proponents (fortunately not my girl's breeder; but other's out there). Apparently from some of these people my dog type of breed is a mythical being that never needs training and protects based on instinct alone and can read your thoughts psychically and respond as needed; hrrmmm.:wink: 

Just so that my last post is not construed incorrectly; I really like this board and it's members. 8)


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

*Re: This is a performance board*



Jennifer Sider said:


> "This is a performance board"
> 
> thus I ask questions from people with performance/working backgrounds; as opposed to some boards that Jeff O and I frequent (purely coincidentally) where the notion that a Central Asian Shepherd might like training and might like to be trained is viewed as blasphemy.... Just so that my last post is not construed incorrectly; I really like this board and it's members. 8)


That's was what I thought you meant, but some people refer to show dogs as performance dogs.......... so I was just checking. :lol:


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jennifer, no problem here either. 
We have a Presa breeder at our club that goes through the same thing with her "people". "you've got a guard breed. Let it's natural instincts do their job". DUH!
You've got a serious dog (breed) on your hands. Nothing wrong with wanting to stay in contol. 
Your seeing how well "fun" training is working now. That doesn't mean a lack of leadership. That's what your dog needs. That's not about heavy correction or physical control. 
As Jeff commented, we train for distance in competition, but that's not how to start with a young dog. Short, fun sessions. As they become solid, you add more time/distraction, and start putting the different exercises together. 
Again! NO reason for 30 mins of focus type heeling.


----------



## Stacey Kubyn (Dec 28, 2006)

*Re: This is a performance board*



Jennifer Sider said:


> thus I ask questions from people with performance/working backgrounds; as opposed to some boards that Jeff O and I frequent (purely coincidentally) where the notion that a Central Asian Shepherd might like training and might like to be trained is viewed as blasphemy because dogs of the Ovcharka type do not NEED training; so say plenty of breed proponents (fortunately not my girl's breeder; but other's out there). Apparently from some of these people my dog type of breed is a mythical being that never needs training and protects based on instinct alone and can read your thoughts psychically and respond as needed; hrrmmm.:wink:
> 
> Just so that my last post is not construed incorrectly; I really like this board and it's members. 8)


The general advice is that dogs of these breeds with CORRECT TEMPERAMENT do not need specific training in order to GUARD THEIR TERRITORY. Everyone agrees that the dogs need to have some basic obedience, what I term to be house manners, and to be kept under control. What you have told the forum here may be your interpretation about the advice given in Ovcharkas, but in fact does not accurately reflect what is in fact advised. If you would like to dispute me on this point, I will direct you to the many many Ovcharka websites and even to my published book on Caucasians that advocate the need for basic obedience for the Ovcharka breeds.

Later this week, will be posted an article by Galina Kirkitskaya, president of the Russian Caucasian Ovcharka club, and her advice on the type and amount of training these dogs should receive for successful ownership in her very very experienced opinion. 

Those experienced in ovcharka breeds, feel that the dogs of correct temperament pay close attention to their owners, read nonverbal cues and read the environment, and that they exhibit excellent judgment It is these temperament traits that distinguish the Ovcharkas, have insured their partnership with mankind for 2000 years, virtually unchanged as breeds during this time. Please don't mock it.

Stacey Kubyn


----------



## Amanda Layne (Aug 9, 2006)

*Re: This is a performance board*



Jennifer Sider said:


> thus I ask questions from people with performance/working backgrounds; as opposed to some boards that Jeff O and I frequent (purely coincidentally) where the notion that a Central Asian Shepherd might like training and might like to be trained is viewed as blasphemy because dogs of the Ovcharka type do not NEED training; so say plenty of breed proponents (fortunately not my girl's breeder; but other's out there). Apparently from some of these people my dog type of breed is a mythical being that never needs training and protects based on instinct alone and can read your thoughts psychically and respond as needed; hrrmmm.:wink:
> 
> Just so that my last post is not construed incorrectly; I really like this board and it's members. 8)


could be totally talking out my a** here, but here goes.

I think there are a few breeds that will "naturally protect" and are very in tune with their "masters" thinking. I dont know a whole lot about your breed, so I cant really comment there, but I know that my breed (dobermans) are "natural" protectors. If they have the correct temperament for the breed, they should never need any training to protect. It should be instinct to them.

The only problem is that it is hard to say whether they have correct temperament or not based on just "living day to day" with them. If I were ever REALLY threatened, I THINK my dogs would be there. But I have never been REALLY threatened before.......so I may never know. 

IMO training in obedience and sport...just deepens your bond, and understanding with your dog. It makes them MORE apt to read your emotions, and visual/non visual cues that you may be under stress, which I dont know about your breed.....but mine reacts to it. I dont care what breed you have, I think that some sort of (at very least) basic foundation training makes them much easier to live with, and much better pets/companions.

Just my .02


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Those experienced in ovcharka breeds, feel that the dogs of correct temperament pay close attention to their owners, read nonverbal cues and read the environment, and that they exhibit excellent judgment It is these temperament traits that distinguish the Ovcharkas, have insured their partnership with mankind for 2000 years, virtually unchanged as breeds during this time. Please don't mock it. 

You have to remember that we are not customers here. mythological bull$h6t isn't gonna cut it. Everyone here is a trainer of some level.

So leave this crap for the other board. The breed has changed so that is crap, all dogs understand nonverbal cues so that is crap, all dogs read the environment, so that is crap.

Don't try to bring it here, I was nice on the other board. Read and listen, don't start spouting off.


----------



## Stacey Kubyn (Dec 28, 2006)

*Re: This is a performance board*

[quote="Amanda Laynecould be totally talking out my a** here, but here goes.

I think there are a few breeds that will "naturally protect" and are very in tune with their "masters" thinking. I dont know a whole lot about your breed, so I cant really comment there, but I know that my breed (dobermans) are "natural" protectors. If they have the correct temperament for the breed, they should never need any training to protect. It should be instinct to them.

[/quote]

Hi Amanda,

Interesting what you replied. When I wrote about Ovcharkas I thought about Dobermanns too, some of that I've known, and how in tune they are seem to their owner. Sorta like 5 year old kids. Do you have a website?

Regards,


----------



## Amanda Layne (Aug 9, 2006)

I do. It's just a website dedicated to my dogs, nothing special. 

www.ZirisDoberman.com


----------



## Stacey Kubyn (Dec 28, 2006)

Whether you agree or not, or find them to be fantastic, these beliefs and statements are part of the breed history and breed lore. To some extent, a dog is a dog is a dog. However, to understand each breed's idiosyncracies, or alleged ones, and taking them into account may help one devise the most effective training program. 

While all dogs may read nonverbal cues and read the environment, livestock guardian dog breeds were bred specifically to read the environment and changes in the environment. So while Border Collies are eyeing and moving the sheep, the LGDs (livestock guardian dogs) are laying quietly, observing and tuning in. 

That be it as it may, the recommendation for training LGDs is multiple very short sessions, and low number of reps, making it fun but low key. They generally understand the commands really fast, many reps sours the session and they start to balk. Maybe it is the same for all dogs, but in my small experience, I've noticed that Rotts and Shepherds react differently to to basic obedience training than LGDs. 

Always refreshing to read your posts Jeff.

Best regards.




Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Those experienced in ovcharka breeds, feel that the dogs of correct temperament pay close attention to their owners, read nonverbal cues and read the environment, and that they exhibit excellent judgment It is these temperament traits that distinguish the Ovcharkas, have insured their partnership with mankind for 2000 years, virtually unchanged as breeds during this time. Please don't mock it.
> 
> You have to remember that we are not customers here. mythological bull$h6t isn't gonna cut it. Everyone here is a trainer of some level.
> 
> ...


----------



## Simon Mellick (Oct 31, 2006)

*Re: This is a performance board*



Stacey Kubyn said:


> they exhibit excellent judgment



A dog's "judgement" in regards to protection is a combination of thresholds and training. To believe otherwise is inviting disaster. 

The people that claim their dog can "sense" when someone is up to no good, that's why he growled at him... These are the same people that will say "that kid must have teased him" or "he was abused as a puppy" when that same dog nails the six year old across the street. 

Dogs don't make judgement calls, they react. We shape these reactions through training and socialisation.


As far as the "natural protector" thing...

The reason protection training is so much work is that it's not a very natural thing. Sure you're taking all sorts of "natural" drives, but you're implementing them into scenarios where they don't naturally belong. If you've read any of my posts, I've got a dog that "naturally protects". (Man, reading that last sentence over, it sounds so much more appealing than "defensive nerve-bag".) The only good judgement there is obedience and a muzzle. I'm not saying that the dogs you are describing have nerve issues; only that, wherever their threshold to bite is, they are the ones making that decision. They are also making the decision on when to stop biting. That's a mistake. "Basic obedience" and "house manners" are not the same as teaching a dog to "out".

Simon


----------



## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

*Re: This is a performance board*



Simon Mellick said:


> Stacey Kubyn said:
> 
> 
> > they exhibit excellent judgment
> ...


 =D> \/ =D> \/


----------



## Stacey Kubyn (Dec 28, 2006)

*Re: This is a performance board*

Hi Simon,

So do we consider dogs not to have judgment, or do we say they have judgment which is comprised of thresholds and training? I believe I said "good judgment" -- maybe that is a short hand way of conveying that the thresholds and training make for a dog that acts in ways I find appropriate. Is that better?

As for sensing, our bodies give off chemical signals depending on our moods. Science has shown dogs can detect fear for example. They can detect cancer, oncoming seizures, even drops in blood sugar. It seems to me that as science progresses we will learn of other things that dogs can detect. The chemicals behind the human emotion perhaps.

Livestock dogs were bred to work independently and to think for themselves, which includes when to bite and when not to bite, for field workers. I dont have working LGD, and we've gotten by very well with just the basic obedience so far. I like to refer to it as house manners. You see, it doesnt matter to me that a dog heels perfectly on lead, only that it doesnt yank my arm when we walk down the street.

Stacey 





Simon Mellick said:


> Stacey Kubyn said:
> 
> 
> > they exhibit excellent judgment
> ...


----------



## Amanda Layne (Aug 9, 2006)

If I am ever in a situation where I honestly need to be PROTECTED I really am not concerned whether my dog "outs" or not. Only in sport do I care about that. And to be honest with you, I would say that many of the sports are "protection sports" but I would not fool myself into thinking my dog is "protection trained" I think beleiving that would be inviting disaster.

I think your average person with a doberman, gsd, mal, or otherwise...should do basic obedience training with them, it helps TEACH the dog judgement, it helps TEACH the dog to react to the handler.

And I will take my dogs judgement and "natural" ability to protect.........over his "protection training" anyday, If I ever find myself in that kind of situation.


----------



## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

I wouldn't depend on most trained dogs, let alone an untrained "natural" dog, unless the dog is one serious badass.


----------



## Amanda Layne (Aug 9, 2006)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> I wouldn't depend on most trained dogs, let alone an untrained "natural" dog, unless the dog is one serious badass.


I think of them more as deterrents than anything. At VERY least, they will bark and show teeth and put on a good show. I dont depend on my dogs for protection, but I do think they would have a say in anything bad that came my way.


----------



## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

So how about Jennifer's questions about heeling? :lol:

Stacy, when this board talks about protection dogs, they are not referring to the natural tendencies of a dog to be aggressive, territorial, or defensive. It's an explicit set of skills (which unfortunately don't have a lot of regulation or standardization) which have as much to do with obedience as anything else.

Pointers point, terriers fight, LGDs have naturally pronounced protective tendencies...so do particular lines of GSDs, Dutchies, Bouviers, and Mals. Many of the these protective line have a great deal of situational awareness and discretion they _might_ apply in a given situation, naturally.

None of this is acceptable to the trainers on this board. Most of our dogs will bite. When people here talk about PPDs, they are talking about a dog that will engage and disengage with a threat at the whim of the owner in a variety of situations (at home, away from home, against blue aliens, at day spas). That requires obedience training and bite training well beyond the demands of normal obedience, and there will always be a lot of passion in response to posts trainers here perceive to be along the lines of "the dog can do it, let the dog figure it out." Most people here (myself included) consider that dangerous to everyone involved, most of all the owner. They are talking about a level of obedience where typical owner issues...how the dog behaves in the house, how the dog behaves off-leash, etc...have been addressed at the very beginning of a very long training process (we hope). 

As for Jennifer...she's got interests in dog training that seem to extend beyond the norm of some of her fellow LGD owners. That's awesome, my guess is she and her dog have a lot of fun finding their limitations as well as their successes, and this board is designed to support work like hers.


----------



## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

And nice post Simon, and nice website Amanda. ;-)


----------



## Stacey Kubyn (Dec 28, 2006)

Amanda Layne said:


> If I am ever in a situation where I honestly need to be PROTECTED I really am not concerned whether my dog "outs" or not. Only in sport do I care about that. And to be honest with you, I would say that many of the sports are "protection sports" but I would not fool myself into thinking my dog is "protection trained" I think beleiving that would be inviting disaster.
> 
> I think your average person with a doberman, gsd, mal, or otherwise...should do basic obedience training with them, it helps TEACH the dog judgement, it helps TEACH the dog to react to the handler.
> 
> And I will take my dogs judgement and "natural" ability to protect.........over his "protection training" anyday, If I ever find myself in that kind of situation.



Amanda I find myself very much on your same page. Thank you Woody for explaining the viewpoint of many trainers. To sum it up, my response to this thread was to reiterate that the advice in the Ovcharka fancy was indeed for basic obedience, not no obedience at all. But probably contrary to a majority of trainer view on this board, the advice in Ovcharka is to rely on natural abilities. I am very interested to learn all the reasons why to do it differently, but hope that the trainers on board can at least acknowledge that there is a whole livestock guardian dog fancy that advocates more of the "go natural" --- many, many experienced people from all over the world, from all walks of life, with successful ownership, and dogs in real life working postions. People who have PPD trained other non flockguardian breeds too and are quick to point out the differences. There might be something to learn from the "go natural" folks too.


----------



## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

> Thank you Woody for explaining the viewpoint of many trainers. To sum it up, my response to this thread was to reiterate that the advice in the Ovcharka fancy was indeed for basic obedience, not no obedience at all. But probably contrary to a majority of trainer view on this board, the advice in Ovcharka is to rely on natural abilities. I am very interested to learn all the reasons why to do it differently, but hope that the trainers on board can at least acknowledge that there is a whole livestock guardian dog fancy that advocates more of the "go natural" --- many, many experienced people from all over the world, from all walks of life, with successful ownership, and dogs in real life working postions. People who have PPD trained other non flockguardian breeds too and are quick to point out the differences. There might be something to learn from the "go natural" folks too.


No question, just want to reiterate that folks here don't consider a dog with naturally protective abilities to be a PPD without very demanding obedience skills, training, and (probably most of all) a very good understanding by the owner of what the dog will not do. Just want you to anticipate the push-back you will get here so it's not taken personally. Protective dog does not equal PPD for us. THat does not make a protective dog a bad dog, just not something any of us here would rely upon to be responsible and discrete...across a _wide_ variety of stimuli. And most of us are hyper-sensitive about the role of any aggressive or dominant dog in modern society...another reason why folks here will get agitated about relying too much on natural ability.

People here certainly recognize innate capabilities, by the way. The most advanced trainers here are very aware of breeding, genetics, temperment testing, etc. They just see natural tendencies as one part of a very complex equation when you talk about a dog that's a "PPD."


----------



## Stacey Kubyn (Dec 28, 2006)

The flockguard folks seem to leave it at "home protector", "territorial guardian", "livestock guardian". I know that it took me awhile, years ago, to grasp the connotation of PPD as it is used. 

OK, sorry for any hijack of this thread. I'd like to ask about the Sch WH title and will scan the board for where to put a question. Many thanks.


----------



## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Stacey Kubyn said:


> The flockguard folks seem to leave it at "home protector", "territorial guardian", "livestock guardian". I know that it took me awhile, years ago, to grasp the connotation of PPD as it is used.
> 
> OK, sorry for any hijack of this thread. I'd like to ask about the Sch WH title and will scan the board for where to put a question. Many thanks.


Sport dog section for questions about Sch BH.

We're very uncomfortable to have someone here like you, someone who actually wants to initiate threads in their appropriate discussion areas. :lol:


----------



## Amanda Layne (Aug 9, 2006)

Woody Taylor said:


> Stacey Kubyn said:
> 
> 
> > The flockguard folks seem to leave it at "home protector", "territorial guardian", "livestock guardian". I know that it took me awhile, years ago, to grasp the connotation of PPD as it is used.
> ...


LOL Woody. We really are a bunch of hi-jackers


----------



## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Amanda Layne said:


> LOL Woody. We really are a bunch of hi-jackers


I would point fingers but I would take my own eye out in the process. :wink:


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Whether you agree or not, or find them to be fantastic, these beliefs and statements are part of the breed history and breed lore. To some extent, a dog is a dog is a dog. However, to understand each breed's idiosyncracies, or alleged ones, and taking them into account may help one devise the most effective training program. 

While all dogs may read nonverbal cues and read the environment, livestock guardian dog breeds were bred specifically to read the environment and changes in the environment. So while Border Collies are eyeing and moving the sheep, the LGDs (livestock guardian dogs) are laying quietly, observing and tuning in. 

That be it as it may, the recommendation for training LGDs is multiple very short sessions, and low number of reps, making it fun but low key. They generally understand the commands really fast, many reps sours the session and they start to balk. Maybe it is the same for all dogs, but in my small experience, I've noticed that Rotts and Shepherds react differently to to basic obedience training than LGDs. 

Always refreshing to read your posts Jeff. 

Best regards. 
.................................................

EDIT

So while your world involves unicorns, friendly dragons and beautiful rainbows EDIT

why don't you talk to us about how they are psychic? maybe about how good they are at making balloon animals?


----------

