# Coyote deterrent



## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

I recently moved to a new area just outside of the city so I could have a large property. However I have heard of several coyote sighting in the last few days.

My question:
What can and should I be doing to make sure my dogs and I don't run into any Coyotes when walking in the woods? 

I currently have two dogs, 75 lb Malinois Male intact, 60 lb Lab female spayed. 

I have orange collars on them with bear bells... anything else I can do just in case?

I was thinking to get a backpack and keep some bear spray and a blank pistol just incase.... any ideas?

Thanks!


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

interesting problem that will probably get worse instead of better :-(
the short answer is probably not much u can do except keep em on lead and break them from critter chasing

i don't think two big dogs would be a priority meal choice for coyotes, and i just watched a long documentary that showed how all the radio collared coyotes were roaming much more INSIDE the cities than they were roaming outside since there were so many more easy food sources there, so maybe you won't have much of a problem //lol//

they're a heck of a lot more adaptable and stealthy than dogs, and chances are they will see you but you won't ever see them unless your dogs pick up their scent and try to find em 

if you are really worried and dogs start getting killed than i'd make the effort to get some scent and REALLY break them from wanting to get near it ... that would also tell you if there WERE coyotes hanging on your land cause they would avoid the heck out of those runs ...yeah, pita and hard to do 

but as you already know, wild animals often use the same paths you do.

... or give all the neighbors you don't like taco dogs for Xmas ??


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Ted Efthymiadis said:


> I recently moved to a new area just outside of the city so I could have a large property. However I have heard of several coyote sighting in the last few days.
> 
> My question:
> What can and should I be doing to make sure my dogs and I don't run into any Coyotes when walking in the woods?
> ...


How big of a threat coyotes are kind of depends on the location. There are plenty of them where I live, but they are wild and not out to get me. I have never had an issue with them (so far). I see their fresh sign daily, and see individuals from time to time. My biggest concern is my dogs NOT chasing them when they run away, and I can control that.

If you live around a place where coyotes are less wild, they can be more of an issue (or not). A call to the local conservation officer maybe able to give you an idea of how often local coyotes are tangling with people and their pets. That will give you a chance to think about the probability of a bad encounter, and then consider the consequence of that encounter. That would help me decide what kind of steps (if any) I would take to be prepared.

The orange collar will help others not mistake your dog for a coyote, but does nothing to deter coyotes IMHO.

The bell may help your dog not surprise wildlife and not cause a flight or fight response, but wildlife are not afraid of bells persay. The biggest advantage is that you always know where the dog is because you can hear it.

Good situational awareness is key, pay attention and don't walk with your music on and so forth. Many problems with wildlife can be prevented before they start.

Bear spray will work on coyotes and other wildlife, if it is within range. If you really think you need to cary it, do not have it in a backpack, it should be on your belt/quickly accessible.

They sell things called "bear bangers" that make noise, if you don't want to carry your starter around. I have never used them.

I carry bear spray every dog walk in bear season, but I don't once the bears are asleep. I still have coyotes, cougars, wolves and some other stuff to worry about, but the probablility of a negative encounter is low enough that I am comfortable with control of my dogs and my wits about me. Of course I reserve the right to change my mind if further local evidence dictates I should. My malinois was chased by a cougar once when she was a pup, but I believe it was a surprise encounter (dog surprised cougar, cougar responded with a short chase) was not hunting her. I have taken steps to reduce surprise encounters with wildlife (pay attention, make noise, bell the dog).


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## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

Thanks.
My dogs can be recalled from any wildlife so I don't worry about my dogs causing any problems. I use the orange collars because it's deer season.

I will look into some bear bangers. Thanks Jenn.

Not using my ipod is also a good idea I will put into practice.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Unless sick, or injured, coyotes should not be an issue when you are out with the dogs. 

We have three packs that are hanging around right now, call back and forth at night and I see them during the day once in a great while. If they see me, they are GONE in a flash. 

My dogs are not allowed to chase wildlife either, but they have never shown any interest in going after coyotes at all. In fact, when the coyotes start singing, my dogs get quiet and go indoors to their houses. 

Coyotes are cunning little creatures though, and they do use a strategy to hunt but luring things out (like dogs and cats) and even though there seems to be only one, there are sometimes one to four that are silent and motionless and when the animal is lured out, they all gang up. Watched it happen antelope hunting last year in the Badlands. 

I would say that loud collars and you with them is going to make any healthy coyote leave and not want to be around. Having bear spray is always a good thing, and I carry a .45 revolver as well.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Believe it or not, I saw one in town the other night. It came out of a wooded area right next to our greyhound racing track. I followed it in my K9 vehicle for awhile before it disappeared. I spoke to a local camper in one of our county parks who lets his dog loose next to our community college to run. He told me that two coyotes were actually interacting/playing with his dogs right here in the city. Unless its a large pack against one lone dog I don't think you have much to worry about.


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## Robley Smith (Apr 20, 2012)

1 or two coyotes really aren't an issue with the dogs you have, particularly if you can call them back from being lured out to a larger group. It is only with larger numbers that the yotes would kill your dogs. Good control of your dogs will do the most for thier safety when you are out walking.

In the midwest they run greyhounds on coyotes, and there are those that train dogs to lure them into gun range ( example a black mouth cur) and those dogs often have to fight a bit as well. Coyotes are nowhere near the problem an almost 200 lb grey wolf is. Wolves have been a real problem with pets and hunting dogs in nearby Idaho.


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## Meg O'Donovan (Aug 20, 2012)

To add to Carole's comments about coyotes luring...
Ranchers in my region who don't keep their dogs contained at night have sometimes had problems with the intact male dogs being lured off and gutted. I don't know why the coyotes do this; I don't think it is for reasons of food, as the killed dogs are not eaten.

I walk in the bush every day, which is one of the reasons I needed the new dog I got (my old dog could no longer do the distances). I've never had a problem with coyotes; mostly they are scavengers. Bears are also not a problem as long as you know they are around the corner (another good reason for a dog who pays attention and can smell better than I can, I just keep an eye on my dog's ears and head carriage). We have met black bears and coyotes in the bush, and as there has always been a "cushion" of adequate distance, either we or they calmly moved off the trail and everyone proceeded, often by a different route. I avoid areas where there is a lot of animal traffic, e.g. sites of recent kills, or where somebody has dumped the guts of a deer, or paths to the river during salmon season. "Wild" animals that have been habituated to interactions with humans might be more dangerous, in my view. I don't have to deal with those kind.

I haven't met a cougar while walking, and I hope not to. My sister has been watched/stalked on several occasions as there are many where she lives. She knew later when she returned the way she had come and and saw the big cat tracks. We were taught by the oldtimers that if (unarmed) you meet a cougar, you make the loudest and most obnoxious noise you can and make yourself appear as big as you can, even by unzipping your coat (while leaving it on) and lifting it above your body with your arms outstretched (to make you look taller and wider). Mostly the cougars pick off the weak or the small (children). Hope I never meet one.

Rural coyotes have never been a problem for us. I don't know what the urban ones are like...


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## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

Alot of times coyotes are just curious also - we have had them come fairly close to the dogtruck when out training and had a couple shadow us from a distance for a bit when running but never worried about any encounters. They are pretty active after deer season due to gut piles etc I imagine and we have had them come fairly close and set up a howl which was pretty cool but I think it was more just stating territory.
If your dogs can be called off of a chase I wouldnt worry unless they were small dogs of snacking size.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Our Friend Angela F her male Malinois got into it with some Coyotes a couple of years back Ted. She actually had to rescue her dog from them, by going in swinging to chase them off. I don't remember the whole story but her dog chased them and didn't recall, then the Coyotes beat the crap out of him. They didn't go for a kill but repeatably bit his gonads, the biggest injuries to the dog was a badly punctured scrotum. You'd be best to touch base with her since she lives fairly close to you and ask what actually happened there, as my info is 2nd hand and may not be 100% correct. 

I am sure if you have your e-collars on them and are aware of your surroundings and have situational awareness I can't see you getting into big trouble. Though the recent history of Coyotes in NS show them to be seemingly more aggressive to humans than in other parts of the continent for some reason.


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## Gerald Guay (Jun 15, 2010)

Coyotes can be dandgerous. 

http://www.cbc.ca/news/arts/music/story/2009/10/28/ns-coyote-attack-died.html


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

I've had my dogs around packs for years, the big mistake is if your dog is lured by one coyote because they'll lead to the pack. I initially had my bitch lured like this & if she wasn't so athletic they'd have had her. She had puncture woulds inside her thighs (small) but what got me was the scrapes on her genitals. Had they got hold it wouldn't have been pretty. My female would lay under a horse trailer & beat the crap out of them if they came on the property. She didn't kill them but put holes all over leaving them bleeding & limping. 
How you keep them away is with mountain lion (cougar) urine. Buy online don't ask me how they get it  but they're natural enemies. When a mtn lion would come around I knew because the dogs would be at the door saying let me in, now!
The other way is kill one leaving carcas out, it works..... Dogs your size shouldn't be in danger unless they chase into pack as mentioned. Just an old cowboy tricks.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

so coyotes go for the genitals. good to know...

I saw a standard poodle get his genitals tore off by 2 rotties and 2 huskies in from of my house once, when the poodle got away from its owner and tried to jump the 4 dogs and the guy who was walking them.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> so coyotes go for the genitals. good to know...
> 
> I saw a standard poodle get his genitals tore off by 2 rotties and 2 huskies in from of my house once, when the poodle got away from its owner and tried to jump the 4 dogs and the guy who was walking them.


 Dude...I gotta move to your neighborhood. It's a free freak show everyday there.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Howard Knauf said:


> Dude...I gotta move to your neighborhood. It's a free freak show everyday there.


Howard.

that happened about 15 yrs ago in a different state.

Same ladies poodle used to bust out of her house, and run up to us while we were working dogs. she lived across the street about 5 houses down. Dog was a pain in the ass. Lady got bitten in her leg by one of the Rotts, when she tried to jump in.

Dude was a young guy, had good control of his dogs for the most part, used to walk all 4 at once.. I saw him often, and often had a dog out, never had a problem with him or his dogs..

I watched the whole thing, was crazy. right at the end of my driveway. he kicked each dog in the gut, one by one and told them to lay down, each dog complied.

poodle was tore up really bad.

I offered to testify for the guy when she was threatening to sue him, her story was little different than what actually happened, her dog got away from her and charged all the way over, straight on, and during the dogfight, she was punching the rottie in his head, and she got bitten.

She never did file a suit, I did see the poodle after that, I think she said it cost about 4000 to save him, cant remember exactly though. 

The police did not charge him with anything, but tried to force him to alter his walking route to avoid our block, he refused, did not think he did anything wrong, I kinda agreed with him, even though I would never walk 4 large dogs like that at once, and probably would have altered my route to avoid contact with that lady after that.

Guy told me he had a bunch of similar incidents, and that he didnt feel at all guilty about it..me personally, when that poodle came around, I always got my dog in the house or had someone run it off. That poodle came for my 130 lb Presa a couple times, I just am not one to purposely allow my dogs to engage other dogs if it can be avoided, that guy was not as considerate as me I guess. it was a white trashy neighborhood, mostly rental houses..all kinds of colorful things happened there.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

shoulda bought fluffy and did some PP work with it.=D>


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Lynn Cheffins said:


> Alot of times coyotes are just curious also -


When I go and train in Columbia Falls MT with Kim G and her team, the little pests get within 40 yards of us...and our dogs keep working, it is weird that they don't pay attention....we have a flanker that usually stops and turns or yells at them and they run off a few yards but always try to sneak up.....they are not aggressive about it, just checking us out I think. 

Worst part is when it is you playing the victim and you lay out in the dark all by yourself and have to radio in something like this...."Uh guys, I am going to have to stand up and yell because something is moving in on me, I don't know what it is and my headlamp just took a crap" :mrgreen:


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I also had a toy poodle named Foo-Foo that tried to fight a full grown Rottie and almost got killed..

my first dog...never used to use a leash, dog usually stuck to me like glue, until she saw that Rottie on his porch and ran right for him never looking back...used a leash after she almost charged headfirst into her own death. same little poodle also jumped out of my car window in the middle of a busy intersection...I was not real responsible with that dog.

they say poodles are the smartest dogs...the ones I have seen didnt appear to be geniuses..


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Carol Boche said:


> When I go and train in Columbia Falls MT with Kim G and her team, the little pests get within 40 yards of us...and our dogs keep working, it is weird that they don't pay attention....we have a flanker that usually stops and turns or yells at them and they run off a few yards but always try to sneak up.....they are not aggressive about it, just checking us out I think.
> 
> Worst part is when it is you playing the victim and you lay out in the dark all by yourself and have to radio in something like this...."Uh guys, I am going to have to stand up and yell because something is moving in on me, I don't know what it is and my headlamp just took a crap" :mrgreen:



That happened to me when I was doing exactly that. Playing victim for the SAR team I was on. 2 am in the morning. I was laying face down in tall grass on the bank of the Mississippi when when I heard sniffing at my boots. I waited for a bark alert and nothing happened. I decided to see whose dog was screwing up. When I moved to turn and saw the yuote it looked like he was turning himself inside out to get out of there. 
It's not uncommon for coyotes to snatch cats or small dogs around here. My youngest daughter's Chi dog has been stalked by them. I've never seen them aggressive to humans around here.


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## Brad Trull (Apr 9, 2012)

I used to run Goodman hounds on yotes here in Indiana . We would never like to run less than 3 dogs on them at once. What happens even with a single big dog chasing a coyote is the pack will break and turn and start to bring the other dog around to attack from the rear . We have 45lb coyotes here 

A single working dog shouldnt be a problem as long as it doesnt bolt , and can be recalled.

My beagles and smaller squirrel dog breeds different story for the poor dogs though:-?

Stray house cats are popular liver trap bait for coyotes which fetch 50$ live to run in pens - 6$ or so for hide - use that much in sevin gettin rid of the fleas


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re : "the little pests get within 40 yards of us...and our dogs keep working, it is weird that they don't pay attention....we have a flanker that usually stops and turns or yells at them and they run off a few yards but always try to sneak up.....they are not aggressive about it, just checking us out I think."

makes sense to me from a smart coyote's POV 
your dogs are looking for something ... maybe food ... if they find it why not try and get an easy piece without having to do the work, .... so why not hang around and see what they turn up ?? //lol//
...doubt they were simply interested in watching humans and dogs working  

no reason for coyotes to get aggressive in this type of situation unless maybe the dogs were searching near a den site with pups hiding in it .... if there was aggression there would be a reason that i might want to check out

if coyotes were stupid they would have been wiped out decades ago ... they thrive in and around cities, so maybe there is a lot in their behavior that is worth checking out
...then again, you can say the same thing about rats and cockroaches .... ...... so maybe not //lol//


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Geoff Empey said:


> Our Friend Angela F her male Malinois got into it with some Coyotes a couple of years back Ted. She actually had to rescue her dog from them, by going in swinging to chase them off. I don't remember the whole story but her dog chased them and didn't recall, then the Coyotes beat the crap out of him. They didn't go for a kill but repeatably bit his gonads, the biggest injuries to the dog was a badly punctured scrotum. You'd be best to touch base with her since she lives fairly close to you and ask what actually happened there, as my info is 2nd hand and may not be 100% correct.
> 
> I am sure if you have your e-collars on them and are aware of your surroundings and have situational awareness I can't see you getting into big trouble. Though the recent history of Coyotes in NS show them to be seemingly more aggressive to humans than in other parts of the continent for some reason.


Ball Drive?


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

This has become a bit of a concern of mine too. Im really not into shooting stuff for no reason but I think there is enough reason to get rid of the Coyotes around me. I moved about 9 months ago to a house that backs up to about 280 “open space, can’t be built on” acres. I know to many of you 280 is not anything much but its actually pretty rare in NJ and really rare in my part of NJ. I am for the most pleasantly finding that this little wooded area to be almost its own ecosystem. its actually and overloaded ecosystem if you ask me. We are seeing things such as owls and much more that I never thought was right around here on a regular basis. But the one thing of concern is the several Coyotes. They are not too concerned about humans. Had one issue when I took a few younger dogs to stretch their legs and I was on a quad. There is a closed down sand pit in the middle of the woods. We were in the pit and the pups were staying close but my older DS was not and was not listening. He was staying between the pups and the wood line no matter how much I called. 
I did get the DS to stay close he was still acting weird; I did see what looked to be a good size dog stalking us. I drove up about thinking he would run off, He just stood there till I got about 10 feet from him and then slowly walked off. Looked a lot like a GS and weighed about 80 pounds, but paw prints were about double the size of a dog of the same weight. Also have had them around young kids that went to hide for a track. 
So now kids don’t go hide without one or two full grown dogs with them and I try not to let the smaller dogs out of my sight. I stick to the pit area more than the woods with the pups too. I really wanted to leave my pups out in dog houses all night but I really don’t think it will be a good idea. 
I don’t hunt and you’re not allowed to hunt on open land but I have friends who hunt on my property. They have had several sightings when deer hunting but couldn’t not take the shot. Shotgun season starts today. Hopefully they get got over the next few weeks.


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## mel boschwitz (Apr 23, 2010)

The stray cats where I live are purposefully left intact. Litters of kittens gives the coyotes and mountain lions something to snack on rather than the pets and my neighbors chickens. Sounds horrible, but it works. I've got several thousand undeveloped acres of land around me, full of coyotes, mountain lions, hogs and gators. Even during the horrible drought last year they had enough to snack on to not need to come into the domesticated areas for food. 

But when I go out there to train I am always well armed!


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> Ball Drive?


Maybe a little bit. But if a dog is really going to have ball drive it needs to bite his own balls!


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

mel boschwitz said:


> The stray cats where I live are purposefully left intact. Litters of kittens gives the coyotes and mountain lions something to snack on rather than the pets and my neighbors chickens. Sounds horrible, but it works. I've got several thousand undeveloped acres of land around me, full of coyotes, mountain lions, hogs and gators. Even during the horrible drought last year they had enough to snack on to not need to come into the domesticated areas for food.


I would say that you are right if they have lots of food elsewhere they will not bother you for sure. Up here we have piles of wild turkey, Canada Geese, Deer and the only major predator is Coyotes and very rarely bears. Bears may take a calf in the spring but bears are not really the problem that coyotes can be if food is scarce. 

A couple of my friends run sheep operations and they are constantly sparring with the coyotes. LGDs like Marremas and Pyrs don't seem to be much of a concern for Coyotes especially at night. They will tangle with the LSGs from time to time don't know if by design or by surprise. One of the last times I went herding the night before a coyote had gotten into it with my friends Marrema. The Marrema really put a beating on the Coyote we could tell as we could watch the Coyote with binoculars from about a mile out across one of her fields. He had skin hanging from the top of his head where the dog had him and was really gimping around. I don't see how that Coyote would survive with the injuries it had.


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## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

I was thinking to call her Geoff. Thanks for the reminder.
Yes the coyotes in NS are rather sassy. They have killed humans in Nova Scotia.




Geoff Empey said:


> Our Friend Angela F her male Malinois got into it with some Coyotes a couple of years back Ted. She actually had to rescue her dog from them, by going in swinging to chase them off. I don't remember the whole story but her dog chased them and didn't recall, then the Coyotes beat the crap out of him. They didn't go for a kill but repeatably bit his gonads, the biggest injuries to the dog was a badly punctured scrotum. You'd be best to touch base with her since she lives fairly close to you and ask what actually happened there, as my info is 2nd hand and may not be 100% correct.
> 
> I am sure if you have your e-collars on them and are aware of your surroundings and have situational awareness I can't see you getting into big trouble. Though the recent history of Coyotes in NS show them to be seemingly more aggressive to humans than in other parts of the continent for some reason.


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

75lb Mal and a 60lb lab....add a good bulldog of some sort to your pack and you should be fine 

I used to live on a working cattle ranch. Had my Mal, my boxer, and a pit x gsd cross. We would stay out in the truck all night and drink beer when the cows were dropping their calves. Those were some good times!

We also had unaltered barn cats. They would get up to about 30 -40 and then get thinned out every year.


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

This is a funny story involving coyotes. On a very large working ranch where I lived, we had an abundance of cats, all black & white. I suspected a dominant male cat but was told the b&w cats weren't bothered as coyotes would go the other way thinking they were skunks! But that was only color cat on the ranch. So the moral of the story is paint your dogs or get a Dalmatian or harlequin


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## Tyree Johnson (Jun 21, 2010)

Chris McDonald said:


> This has become a bit of a concern of mine too. Im really not into shooting stuff for no reason but I think there is enough reason to get rid of the Coyotes around me. I moved about 9 months ago to a house that backs up to about 280 “open space, can’t be built on” acres. I know to many of you 280 is not anything much but its actually pretty rare in NJ and really rare in my part of NJ. I am for the most pleasantly finding that this little wooded area to be almost its own ecosystem. its actually and overloaded ecosystem if you ask me. We are seeing things such as owls and much more that I never thought was right around here on a regular basis. But the one thing of concern is the several Coyotes. They are not too concerned about humans. Had one issue when I took a few younger dogs to stretch their legs and I was on a quad. There is a closed down sand pit in the middle of the woods. We were in the pit and the pups were staying close but my older DS was not and was not listening. He was staying between the pups and the wood line no matter how much I called.
> I did get the DS to stay close he was still acting weird; I did see what looked to be a good size dog stalking us. I drove up about thinking he would run off, He just stood there till I got about 10 feet from him and then slowly walked off. Looked a lot like a GS and weighed about 80 pounds, but paw prints were about double the size of a dog of the same weight. Also have had them around young kids that went to hide for a track.
> So now kids don’t go hide without one or two full grown dogs with them and I try not to let the smaller dogs out of my sight. I stick to the pit area more than the woods with the pups too. I really wanted to leave my pups out in dog houses all night but I really don’t think it will be a good idea.
> I don’t hunt and you’re not allowed to hunt on open land but I have friends who hunt on my property. They have had several sightings when deer hunting but couldn’t not take the shot. Shotgun season starts today. Hopefully they get got over the next few weeks.



I don't want to hear it Chris ..... Im in Jackson, nothing like walking outside and seeing a Tiger! oh thats over i think :wink:


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

buy a Kangal, problem solved. they work on wolves, cheetahs and even mountain lions , dont know of the last one.
a few coyotes shoudnt be a problem


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

So if you had 48" fences hot wired at the top, would that keep the coyotes out? I've been wondering for awhile if I'm going to eventually need an LGD.

T


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> So if you had 48" fences hot wired at the top, would that keep the coyotes out? I've been wondering for awhile if I'm going to eventually need an LGD.


I think tall electrified fences like that are a huge expense, even then the Coyotes would test those defenses. I'd look into a LSG myself but I'd look into a donkey before a canine. 

My friends Marremas and Pyrs while aggressive and deadly towards Coyotes are also aggressive to the other working dogs on the farm as well as to people walking up the road etc. They have jumped fences to engage pedestrians walking pets and then need to be tied. That in turn negates them from engaging coyotes and doing their job. 

Donkeys may on the other hand will just be ornery to all things canine that get in their face including canines on the farm that want to test them, but at least they will not engage people, as a general rule they will not show interest in canines unless the canines come into their space.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

gee whiz Geoff, 
- are you saying those great protection dogs might have a little trouble in the "threat recognition" department ?
- or maybe they are just lacking in some areas of "responsibility" ?
rotflmao....
....sorry i couldn't resist ... another thread has been bugging me lately


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

rick smith said:


> gee whiz Geoff,
> - are you saying those great protection dogs might have a little trouble in the "threat recognition" department ?
> - or maybe they are just lacking in some areas of "responsibility" ?
> rotflmao....
> ....sorry i couldn't resist ... another thread has been bugging me lately


Nah I wouldn't say threat recognition they are pretty ingrained in seeing everything outside of their flock as a threat. Even responsibility as that has to be the owners gig. They are different than what you'd think a normal working dog is. They are raised since pups with flocks of sheep and don't readily bond to humans outside of their owner. They are sorta of an enigma to me. 

My friends Marremas are dogs that I genuinely have a lot of respect for. I will not get out of my vehicle when I arrive on her property until she has tied them up or put them in a kennel. Even when they are tied I always have one eye slanted towards them. LOL! However my other friends Donkeys doing the same job are less of a liability and I am more relaxed with my dogs around them. Though my friends Czech line GSD tried to antagonize the donkeys once and the donkey almost killed it. Had it by the throat and was stomping the shit out of him. That big tough GSD kept a wide berth after that, no doubt.


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

Wow now we are getting a new thread, Working Donkey Forum!!!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Steve Estrada said:


> Wow now we are getting a new thread, Working Donkey Forum!!!


Don't forget Working Llamas, which do the same kind of flock-guarding job.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Steve Estrada said:


> Wow now we are getting a new thread, Working Donkey Forum!!!


Just think Steve if this thread keeps going this way the next bark and hold you train could end up sounding like this. LOL!! 

http://www.ilovewavs.com/Effects/Animals/Sound Effect - Donkey Bray 03.wav


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

not gonna cross post this like i should but...
but i'm looking on the other side of the coin, Geoff 

a dog who sees ANYTHING and everything as a "threat" outside it's flock,family,handler or whatever, is NOT capable of threat recognition imo .... and can be dangerous regardless of where and how it lives

a dog out in the middle of nowhere "protecting" its stock may not be much of a liability, but as you pointed out, even that can be dangerous

why some people think a pet dog WILL be able to do it when the need arises, without any "threat recognition training", and only acting on its bond with an owner and some basic bitework, is just something i can't wrap my lemon brain around

in fact there was a poster awhile back who touted the claims of maremmas as FAMILY ppd's ](*,)

anyway, sorry to butt in off topic ...

but building a boma (sp?) and putting the herd in when unattended is probably the only way to keep predators from livestock, imo ////works well for the africans and they have bigger problems over there 
- if you are rich enuff to have lottsa land and a lotta head, you should be able to deal with the predation losses without complaining


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

rick smith said:


> not gonna cross post this like i should but...
> but i'm looking on the other side of the coin, Geoff
> 
> a dog who sees ANYTHING and everything as a "threat" outside it's flock,family,handler or whatever, is NOT capable of threat recognition imo .... and can be dangerous regardless of where and how it lives
> ...


Well the title of the thread is "Coyote deterrent" sure we have some thread drift here but we are talking about "Coyote deterrents". :---)

Yeah Marremas are a very primal dog and something that I'd never ever consider to own. Even my friend who owns them has spayed and neutered the 3 she has, as she herself has had to many of those 'treat recognition' problems pop up. She originally wanted to start breeding program with them but her real world experience has swayed her to think other wise. 

They bring the herd in at night now so their 'boma' is the barn. They still lose livestock during the day no matter it's a constant sparring match for them Coyotes vs Farmer. 

So I say. Herders for herding .. Donkeys for LSGs, Marremas stay in the Mountains in Italy! That's how I vote. :wink:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Geoff Empey said:


> I think tall electrified fences like that are a huge expense, even then the Coyotes would test those defenses. I'd look into a LSG myself but I'd look into a donkey before a canine.
> 
> My friends Marremas and Pyrs while aggressive and deadly towards Coyotes are also aggressive to the other working dogs on the farm as well as to people walking up the road etc. They have jumped fences to engage pedestrians walking pets and then need to be tied. That in turn negates them from engaging coyotes and doing their job.
> 
> Donkeys may on the other hand will just be ornery to all things canine that get in their face including canines on the farm that want to test them, but at least they will not engage people, as a general rule they will not show interest in canines unless the canines come into their space.



When I was digging my terriers we were often at a farm with sheep and a donkey. When we went through that pasture we stuffed the terriers in our coats as per the farmer's instructions. 
We started one dig that was close to the pasture fence and when the donkey spotted the dogs he was even on his front knees trying to go UNDER the fence. We never did work that hole again. :lol:


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Geoff Empey said:


> Nah I wouldn't say threat recognition they are pretty ingrained in seeing everything outside of their flock as a threat. Even responsibility as that has to be the owners gig. They are different than what you'd think a normal working dog is. They are raised since pups with flocks of sheep and don't readily bond to humans outside of their owner. They are sorta of an enigma to me.
> 
> My friends Marremas are dogs that I genuinely have a lot of respect for. I will not get out of my vehicle when I arrive on her property until she has tied them up or put them in a kennel. Even when they are tied I always have one eye slanted towards them. LOL! However my other friends Donkeys doing the same job are less of a liability and I am more relaxed with my dogs around them. Though my friends Czech line GSD tried to antagonize the donkeys once and the donkey almost killed it. Had it by the throat and was stomping the shit out of him. That big tough GSD kept a wide berth after that, no doubt.


Its more an issue of extreme territoriality with the LGDs. Some non-LGDs can be just as bad--like an old school bouvier. Anyway, I've been thinking and re-thinking this for awhile. I don't like having a dog in that capacity; although my friend's Pyr is very manageable and reliable. However, her issue has been stray dogs and neighbor's dogs running loose--not coyotes that I know of. Since coyotes are hunting by day, its a huge issue. My neighbors seem to think an outside dog that will bark is enough to keep them away. Managing a llama or donkey is not something I want to do. Would do a llama though before a donkey. One of my club members had a mini donkey with his flock, I think. I wonder how well the deterrents mentioned work if there is a live food source they can smell or hear?

T


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## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

I have seen sheep people turn donkeys out with the flock, and have been told it works to keep coyotes out.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Donkeys and Llamas both have a natural hate/aggression/forward defense or whatever you want call it against canines. 
Coyotes will only go after sheep in a pack. A single coyote will go after the young and weak. The donkey and Llama will instinctively go after the coyote aggressively. A thirty - forty lb coyote against a pissed off 2-300 lb donkey or Llama is a looser if it doesn't run. Even a good ewe with a lamb will keep a single coyote at bay. 
I've seen coyotes mousing in a field with half a dozen does with fawns. When the coyotes got to close a couple of foot stomps from the does easily moved them off.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Its more an issue of extreme territoriality with the LGDs. Some non-LGDs can be just as bad--like an old school bouvier. Anyway, I've been thinking and re-thinking this for awhile. I don't like having a dog in that capacity; although my friend's Pyr is very manageable and reliable. However, her issue has been stray dogs and neighbor's dogs running loose--not coyotes that I know of. Since coyotes are hunting by day, its a huge issue. My neighbors seem to think an outside dog that will bark is enough to keep them away. Managing a llama or donkey is not something I want to do. Would do a llama though before a donkey. One of my club members had a mini donkey with his flock, I think. I wonder how well the deterrents mentioned work if there is a live food source they can smell or hear?


I think it is safe to say a Pyr would be a lot more manageable and reliable with people any ways than a Marrema until the poo hit the fan. Then there isn't much that could out do a Marrema engaging Coyotes outside of Ovorckhas Kangals etc on that same level of primal. 

Llamas for me still don't really enjoy people either, where a donkey will interact with people easily a Llama won't. Go Team Donkey!!


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

are maremmas really that aggressive towards strange humans? never would have guessed. most kangals (although from show lines) are not that bad
and these are working lines i assume


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