# Pet Quality out of working lines



## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

Ok....seeking thoughts.

I, like I said in my post about Cato, had originally wanted a pet quality dog out of a working line breeding. This possibility was presented to me and my thinking was that it would be a "happy medium" for a starter dog for me in SchH.

Are there any members here who *do* have pet quality dogs out of working lines and participating in SchH? What are your experiences? Or are there those of you who have pet quality dogs out of working lines who have, well, a pet...?

Also, I have read that pet quality dogs out of working lines are those that are culled as a means of "eradicating" the lesser dogs. 

Just what exactly defines pet quality from working lines?


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

To me a pet quality dog is a dog that is not good at doing what he/she is bred for. Borderline drive to work for example.

If I wanted to work the dog then I would just seek a breeding that will likely yield some medium drive dogs that are still working quality, but perhaps not "the best."


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

My opinion is that you should have no problem finding such a dog. Breeders are watering dogs down so they are easier to place, in pet homes when working homes don't come knocking. Real working homes don't want them and most pet homes don't even care about lines or what is behind a dog. The competition to get what you are looking for shouldn't be too rough. I could send you a list a page or more long of such breeders. Good honest people, that wont rip you off but honestly their dogs are just not all that anymore. They can compete and do but you wont see their progeny at the worlds. The breeders have good lines and great reputions they just don't use sharp or hard to handle/train dogs. These dogs don't carry that edge that so many peopel can't deal with but so many experienced people get bored without.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Unless you're getting an older dog at say about 1-2 years of age, IMHO there's no way you can say for sure that pup you have is pet quality. Usually pups are called 'pet' quality because they aren't as interested in biting a rag as their littermates, that's versus working quality, or maybe they're scared of things and way too nervy. The former may turn out even more serious and a better dog than its brothers and sisters, while the latter is a dog you absolutely do NOT want especially as a family dog (that will be even worse). I still believe it's very few people who can accurately predict how a pup will turn out, without the bloodlines. I guess you would need to breed a whole load of litters and know the bloodlines very well before you can even say anything. 

Don't get a weaker dog. Get better bloodlines that suit you and your family.


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## Trish Campbell (Nov 28, 2006)

A "pet quality" pup could also be a dog with an undescended testicle, a long coat, or another disqualifying fault for breeding. Doesn't mean the dog couldn't work, but that term to me also encompasses dogs who can't be used in the future for breeding. 

I have dogs in working homes who are also companions-excellent temperaments, solid nerves are what a good dog should have.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

This is a common mistake by some folks, to assume that a "pet grade" is a weak version of a worker. I have bred several litters of working Border Collies. Far and away most go to pet homes. Before you buy one, I tell you up front what behaviors to look for and how to stop unwanted ones. Genetics as we have said before is the key to how most puppies will behave in a litter.

I don't think in a balanced litter that you will see much difference in a #2 and a #3 puppy. The line that seperates a worker and a pet are hair thin. The difference may be something as simple as a few months more to mature...and that's it. True rejects aren't in a balanced breeding. 

If you are looking for a pet grade German Shepherd, NEVER look at working lines and almost always go for an American show lines, fluffy do nothing breeding. No drives, no style, no conformation, and weak as water nerves; this to me is a pet grade animal. Then, never expect it to work or protect you when the boogy man comes calling!8-[


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Michelle Kehoe said:


> My opinion is that you should have no problem finding such a dog. Breeders are watering dogs down so they are easier to place, in pet homes when working homes don't come knocking. Real working homes don't want them and most pet homes don't even care about lines or what is behind a dog. The competition to get what you are looking for shouldn't be too rough. I could send you a list a page or more long of such breeders. Good honest people, that wont rip you off but honestly their dogs are just not all that anymore. They can compete and do but you wont see their progeny at the worlds. The breeders have good lines and great reputions they just don't use sharp or hard to handle/train dogs. These dogs don't carry that edge that so many peopel can't deal with but so many experienced people get bored without.


Michelle some breeders are watering down their stuff, but not here! I have a litter of Bouvier puppies that just hit the ground Saturday. I'll be shocked if any aren't little a$$ eaters...At two days old they already have some size. Too early to tell about drives. But I won't water down anything I breed.=;


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## Trish Campbell (Nov 28, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> This is a common mistake by some folks, to assume that a "pet grade" is a weak version of a worker. I have bred several litters of working Border Collies. Far and away most go to pet homes. Before you buy one, I tell you up front what behaviors to look for and how to stop unwanted ones. Genetics as we have said before is the key to how most puppies will behave in a litter.
> 
> I don't think in a balanced litter that you will see much difference in a #2 and a #3 puppy. The line that seperates a worker and a pet are hair thin. The difference may be something as simple as a few months more to mature...and that's it. True rejects aren't in a balanced breeding.
> 
> If you are looking for a pet grade German Shepherd, NEVER look at working lines and almost always go for an American show lines, fluffy do nothing breeding. No drives, no style, no conformation, and weak as water nerves; this to me is a pet grade animal. Then, never expect it to work or protect you when the boogy man comes calling!8-[


I completely agree with you Howard..I don't breed for watered down litters either, nor do any of my friends I know with similar programs. That being said, not every puppy in that litter is destined to go to a working home. Doesn't make them less of a dog, less character, less temperament, less drives. You as a breeder have to know how to make the best matches..plus like Howard said, make it very clear that your breed is not a Golden Retriever...a GSD isn't for everyone, especially a workingline dog.
I've also placed dogs as companions, guess what, the owner got the bug to work the dog, dog worked. It had the genetics..also placed top pups who's owners worked them, trained, but life got in the way, they quit their sport. All the dogs were still companions because they had good genetics.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Trish on the same page. Folks can't get jacked out of shape if they go to a working kennels to get a pet. I think we are reading the same book. If you want weak as water, get watered down, but not from working lines. Even some litter mates that look the same in size can never be cookie cutter patterns. You could have months of developmental issues, health issues, and some that just never got some of the "good stuff" in their system.

I always tell people to stay away from working lines animals if you ONLY want a pet. Drives and litter rearing can give you a monster and a half! :twisted: I had a puppy from my first Border Collie breeding; it was a small, mean as hell little bitch. Today I call her Split and she can be seen on my website. This little lady would have NEVER worked out in a pet home. Today, she is daddy's little girl and my pride and joy. So much fun to work because Split is totally focused on me and the job at hand.

Smart breeders should use my way of thinking; the money comes and goes but a great reference lasts forever! I would rather miss out on one sale and capture a lifetime of praise from happy clients. It isn't about the money, it's about producing the best possible K-9 I can and having folks bragging to high heavens on the purchase. \\/ The money comes from me teaching...


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I think it's kind of a sliding scale of what constitutes a "pet" too. A dog that loves biking, hiking, swimming, etc and that may drive you crazy if you don't do those things :mrgreen: is a little different than those with a dog who can barely roll off the couch. I fit under that category of an "active pet" home in that we dabble in a lot of activities. Whatever sounds fun. I'd wager most working dogs with good stable temperaments would be fine in this sort of situation...even if they wish they were really biting bad guys every day of the week. :twisted: Some other working dogs really do better with more physical activities though.


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## Trish Campbell (Nov 28, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Trish on the same page. Folks can't get jacked out of shape if they go to a working kennels to get a pet. I think we are reading the same book. If you want weak as water, get watered down, but not from working lines. Even some litter mates that look the same in size can never be cookie cutter patterns. You could have months of developmental issues, health issues, and some that just never got some of the "good stuff" in their system.
> 
> I always tell people to stay away from working lines animals if you ONLY want a pet. Drives and litter rearing can give you a monster and a half! :twisted: I had a puppy from my first Border Collie breeding; it was a small, mean as hell little bitch. Today I call her Split and she can be seen on my website. This little lady would have NEVER worked out in a pet home. Today, she is daddy's little girl and my pride and joy. So much fun to work because Split is totally focused on me and the job at hand.
> 
> Smart breeders should use my way of thinking; the money comes and goes but a great reference lasts forever! I would rather miss out on one sale and capture a lifetime of praise from happy clients. It isn't about the money, it's about producing the best possible K-9 I can and having folks bragging to high heavens on the purchase. \\/ The money comes from me teaching...


Exactly! I always tell people it's only in my best interest to get you the best puppy and match that I can because you'll tell everybody and your brother how much you love that dog  That's how a breeder builds their reputation. So, if I don't have a good match; or I think the breed is really too much-I happily will refer them elsewhere.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

If they want a pet, they should get a show line GSD. Apparently the last thing in the world these dogs want to do is work or bite, at least that's what I surmise from the San Jose Seiger Show tapes. A very pretty dog with the work ethic of a lap dog.


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> If they want a pet, they should get a show line GSD. Apparently the last thing in the world these dogs want to do is work or bite, at least that's what I surmise from the San Jose Seiger Show tapes. A very pretty dog with the work ethic of a lap dog.


I have never seen an American showline GSD I liked - the ones I've met were nervous to downright neurotic, and several were fear biters. I can't imagine recommending one of those dogs to anyone as a good pet. Are you referring to German showlines? 

Besides, didn't Michelle say she doesn't wan't a "pet" in terms of "no work ability", but in terms of stable nice family dog that still would do sports?


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Yes, the dogs at the San Jose Sieger Show are all german lines. There were only a few that were barely OK. I have seen some nice german show line dogs (not many) but some. Mike on this board has a german show line. I have seen videos of his dog's bite work. It puts every single dog that competed to shame.

What this tells me is there is a big component of trouble with the training. BUT, the majority of dogs on the tapes just didn't look like they had even a little bit of "it"!!!

Michelle has seen them too.


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## Sarah ten Bensel (Mar 16, 2008)

My dog is a pet first and foremost and he is from "working lines". Nandi has no disqualify faults and sold as a pet to a working home. If you are looking for "Happy Medium" for a starter dog in Schh, I would still go with working lines. Nandi's litter was temperament tested using a police and SAR temperament test. He was average with some aspects, and "excelled" in others, there were two other pups that tested excellent and went to SchH and some SAR place in California. Nandi was middle of the road, but has evolved into a nice dog. Because of our late start and newbie bad training habits, I do have build drive and our relationship isn't as good as it can be. However, every dog has its strengths and weaknesses and needs. Both the breeder and the evaluator helped me pick a puppy based on my goals (at that time I had no idea about schH). I was planning on doing AKC tracking , obedience, herding. His genetics tell me he was bred for sport, we chose schH. He "knows" it, it was like a lightbulb went off in his brain "I get this"! it seems and it is him that will lead to SchH I,II,III. He is teaching me! I don't know if I would get the same response with a non-working line GSD. He has been a fantastic "starter schutzhund dog" In my opinion. A dog of lesser drive, etc may be just a helluva lot of work and you get nowhere. 
Many working dogs have "off switches". Especially after training, long walks etc. Nandi is a couch potato, but then turns alert in a nano second if called upon. He is a family dog, but he absolutely must do the things he was bred to do--it is a great disservice to him not to.

As far as the Seiger Show you tube videos, it was a shame. I am a novice, but it gives a whole new meaning to "pronounced" what a joke. I'll take my "ugly" dog that has a crushing, calm, full bite (mostly prey) anyday. But that is another thread. There are a couple SSHowline dogs that I train with and their workethic is better than Nandi's and they bite very very well.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

my dog was labeled pet quality because he had an umbilical hernia. It closed up before he was 16wks.

Be careful with the definition of pet quality though. I have a litter mate to my male, she's very high drive and spooky and could easily become a disastrous fear aggressive Rott in the wrong hands. This pup was going to be put to sleep due the nerve issue but I asked if I could take her first and see what I could do with her. My wife likes her and that's the end of the story. She doesn't leave the house without a muzzle.

I think a different(lesser) breeder may have labeled this female as pet quality and sold her for a few bucks.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Speaking of working line dogs that are great pets, I can vouch for two adult dogs Trish Campbell has bred that are both excellent Schutzhund dogs AND family dogs. Two new pups at club are looking to be the same.
These are unsolicited comments but I WILL want a hug next time I see Trish! :grin: :grin:
In all seriousness, they are fantastic dogs!


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## Trish Campbell (Nov 28, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Speaking of working line dogs that are great pets, I can vouch for two adult dogs Trish Campbell has bred that are both excellent Schutzhund dogs AND family dogs. Two new pups at club are looking to be the same.
> These are unsolicited comments but I WILL want a hug next time I see Trish! :grin: :grin:
> In all seriousness, they are fantastic dogs!


Alright! lol!  Thanks Bob


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Sarah has brought up an interesting point, puppy testing. As a bird dog owner, Black Lab, the tests I used are still old stand by methods. I do add a few others to see basically the same thing. 

I use a set of car keys and dangle them on the ground. When the puppies show interest in them, I want one that will pick them up and bring them to me. The taste of metal is something some dogs shy from.
Rolling the pup over on its back for 5-10 seconds is a great test for dominate working puppies. Do they fight 24/7 or do they settle down?
Loud hand claps or 2 pieces of 2x4 block clapped together, gun fire sounds.
Will they bite a burlap rag or stuffed animal? The willingness to bite and carry are 2 things I like. If they bring things back to me that is even better.
Do they show any interest in chasing a tennis ball?


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

This is a very informative thread for me and I definately appreciate everyones comments. 

I truly enjoy the drivier characteristics (active home, participating in SchH, am very interested in conditioning and training for the AD)...I think it's the robust sharp aggression I can do without.

There are dogs I've seen who wag their whole butt, ears down with a lil "woof" at the helper....and I laugh and say "that's the dog for me!!!" (starter dog!!!  And, if my dog was like that, I suppose the challenge would then be teaching him to want to eat the bad guy...it would be completely opposite from whence I came....


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Hi

Bear with me, please??

The word "pet quality" (don't like the description) out of working lines is for me something that the owner has to achieve. I have no kids but I honestly think that when you pick up a 7-8 week old pup from working lines, it is possible to make this "creature" into a family member *if *you put in the work. The pup comes last in the line, always. For some pups, it will not require much work, for others, more.

One element of doubt could be the inner insecurity of a family member (not always on show to us humans). This can cause aggression in the pup/dog. 

My family came over to spend Christmas with us brother with wife and daughter. Our Fila Brasileiro took to my brother and niece with rapture but remained aloof/aggressive (monitored by us) to my sister-in-law. She wore a gold charm bracelet and whenever he heard this moving around, he was alert. She was in awe of him, if not frightened, but nothing happend during the 10-day stay because we didn't allow it.

I can't see why one cannot go out and choose a pup to one's liking and then educate it to know it's place. Breed lines can give false info, as has already been said. How is anyone going to be sure that a "pet???" from working lines is going to act as a pet???

The most important thing for me would be a pup that is sound in character, be it a "pet???" from working lines or show lines. This way I know that, with the correct "management" there "should" be no accidents. 

There is no reason to think that because one has "failed" once, it can happen again. There is also no reason to think that because one gets a "pet quality" from working lines, one can sit back and let things happen.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Can't edit (10 mins. over) but one thing is important, the pup has to know from the minute (no later) it enters the home where it stands in the hierarchy.

Gillian


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Can't edit (10 mins. over) but one thing is important, the pup has to know from the minute (no later) it enters the home where it stands in the hierarchy.


This is the problem nowadays though. People get that fluffy puppy and let it take over the house from the first minute. 

I'm on a yahoo list and I just read a thread where I had posted about working with a clicker. Anyways this one person (a supposed master trainer) replies saying that the clicker is the best thing since sliced bread yada yada but didn't put any substance or explanation to the talk on why it was working for them. 

Then they started going on about timeouts for dogs as well. :-k It really makes you wonder where some of these people are coming from. btw I believe in clickers and work with them for certain things. 

No wonder why some people get overwhelmed by having a pet let alone a working dog getting crap training info like that.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Maybe that's what went wrong with my "fluffy" husband!!

It's sick - timeout for dogs - let it settle down first before you lay down the laws, etc. This way the pup has sussed out it's owner as a "Weichei" = softy before the same has even had a chance to suss out what sort of dog it's got.

Gillian


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Since I just got into sport dogs 2 years ago and have had GSD's for 17 years now. I have had allot of "pet" working line GSD's. I have only owned one Showline, a Sch 3 female. Making a dog a pet just takes a heavy hand, lots of no's and squashing drive. Having a pet that you want to compete with, is probably the hardest balance for people to keep. You really have to know and read dogs. Throwing your dog in a kennel and letting him go hog wild outside and just keeping him in control when you are training is easy. Everyone has a different lifestyle and needs or wants from their dogs. No one way is right, or correct for everyone. My ways and dogs change, as my life does. 

One thing that never changes is that I keep my dogs an active part of my life. My dogs get allot of excersize no matter what I am doing with them. Pets, OB partners and Sport dogs alike, all get a healthy dose of running and out of the kennel time daily. If I go somewhere on the weekend, lake, river, hiking, my friends ranch, I want to take my dogs. A good dog is a tired dog.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Just rereading some posts and the term "pet" I don't think is aimed to make anyone feel bad about owning a dog with little drive, or physical issues, or even makes it second rate. Pets are fun family members. My Bouvier male is my "pet" and a good friend to have on a farm. He is also without question one tough PP dog.

Pets can be workers, they can be sport dogs, or service dogs. Working lines pets are not however a run of the mill, weak as water, happy little air-head camper! Your dogs drives reguardless of breed will keep you rethinking where and how you socialize your dog and the places that you can go. A pet and a working pet can never be viewed as 100% safe in all venues, just can't happen.

As a breeder of Border Collies and now of Bouvier des Flandres, I am always thinking of what-if scenarios that my dogs might face. I would never let a dog go to a home where the owner crates them for 8 hours a day. There is also a big difference between *responsible breeders* and *K9 Pimps* (folks who whore out their dogs and produce litter after litter of puppies, often doing it without a care in the world for their animals.) 

I have a GREAT dislike for these folks and for one reason, they are lazy trash bums; folks who are often too lazy to take a 9-5 job and want "Fluffy" to bring home the bacon! Shame on YOU!!! Many never give their dogs the love and care that any living thing needs to feel safe. Dogs often have poor shot records, live in trash covered yards, and get the poorest of food stuffs. In the mean time, the K9 Pimp is inside watching tv and playing on the computer selling lies to folks who think they are getting a "good pet." These same "breeders" can't tell you the titles on their dogs, can't read one, can't pronounce Schutzhund, and call their stuff "Big bone beauties" in their ads.

Pet owners need to do their homework and buy from responsible breeders and put the K9 Pimps out of business. If you are one of them, then there is NO mistaking my position with regards to you and your "breeding" operations! :mrgreen:


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

I agree with you on most of what you just posted, Howard, but you seem to be a little contradictory, and I have to say something about it. 

First you say you would never let a dog go to a home where it would be crated for 8 hours a day, and then you condemn the "K9 Pimps" for not having a 9-5 job. While I TOTALLY get your point about the so-called "K9 Pimps," having a 9-5 job requires that you either crate or kennel the dog for 8 hours or take him to work with you if you have that luxury. Before we fenced our yard, Jak was crated or in his kennel while I was at work, for up to 9.5 hours a day. What other choice do those of us with full-time jobs have? Doggie daycare? Petsitters? :roll: :lol:


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Kristen Cabe said:


> I agree with you on most of what you just posted, Howard, but you seem to be a little contradictory, and I have to say something about it.
> 
> First you say you would never let a dog go to a home where it would be crated for 8 hours a day, and then you condemn the "K9 Pimps" for not having a 9-5 job. While I TOTALLY get your point about the so-called "K9 Pimps," having a 9-5 job requires that you either crate or kennel the dog for 8 hours or take him to work with you if you have that luxury. Before we fenced our yard, Jak was crated or in his kennel while I was at work, for up to 9.5 hours a day. What other choice do those of us with full-time jobs have? Doggie daycare? Petsitters? :roll: :lol:


Kristen there is a BIG difference in a kennel that is 6 x 12+/- and a crate that's 24" x 30". And that's my point, no animal should have to be put in a living condition like that for 8 or more hours. I crate train and support it 100%, don't get the message wrong. Could you live in a box for 8 hours? No, no one could and there is my point. Be a responsible dog owner and provide those things that make K9 life happy. Living for a K9 Pimp ain't it!!! :twisted:


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

I'm a little confussed on that one too Howard. I work at home and my dogs are still kennel dogs. I'm trying to grow grass in my backyard, I like my house clean and I have kids running around durring the day. I can't have dogs running all over, period. My dogs come out when I am ready for them. Some days I don't have time(crappy weather) to work my dogs individually but I still bring them out and run the snot out of them. Everyone has to leave for a weekend occasionally, work, or go on vacation. Dogs have to stay in kennels. It's the only safe way to house a dog when you are not attending them. Please Howard tell me you are not one of those, my dog is a house dog and that makes me a better owner people.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I think I still have trouble with the term "pet quality" from working line breeds as I think the owner has to form the dog to what he wants. 

The strong, well balanced dog should have the least trouble with the hierarchy if it's made clear to him and can still be extremely good on the competition field, or not?

The other way round, I've seen dog handlers give dogs back to the breeder or sell them to families as "pets" because they don't make the grade which means it can't be *so* easy to see how the dog will turn out or they wouldn't waste their time training it for a few months. Some trainers test the 6 week old pups and can tell then if they are going to make the grade, but it still doesn't mean the rest of the litter will make good pets.

Sorry to keep harping on.............

Gillian


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Michelle Kehoe said:


> I'm a little confussed on that one too Howard. I work at home and my dogs are still kennel dogs. I'm trying to grow grass in my backyard, I like my house clean and I have kids running around durring the day. I can't have dogs running all over, period. My dogs come out when I am ready for them. Some days I don't have time(crappy weather) to work my dogs individually but I still bring them out and run the snot out of them. Everyone has to leave for a weekend occasionally, work, or go on vacation. Dogs have to stay in kennels. It's the only safe way to house a dog when you are not attending them. Please Howard tell me you are not one of those, my dog is a house dog and that makes me a better owner people.


Michelle what's there not to understand? Responsible owners do crate and kennel dogs. Responsible owners also don't expect their dogs to live in a 24 x 30 crate for 8 hours. My dogs live in kennels for their safety and mine. Your concern about being in a kennel has no foundation...come on now! \\/


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Sure I'd rather kennel than crate my dogs anyday but crating is not a bad thing either. If your dog wont shut up or can't be contained in a kennel, the only option may be in a crate inside the house/garage/barn. Some dogs will try to get out of a kennel until they do but put them in a plastic crate they could chew up in 15 minutes and they are content to stay in it, instead of the larger kennel outside. Some of my dogs wont even potty in their kennel so if your trying to make the point that dogs can't relieve themselves, it's a mute point. I'm sure my male would be happier inside the house closed in a crate just because he would feel closer to me and being in the house is a reward for him or a special time.

Just I personally, would never say I wont sell a dog to someone who will crate it. A crated dog can still be a better taken care of dog than a couch lounger.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Michelle Kehoe said:


> Sure I'd rather kennel than crate my dogs anyday but crating is not a bad thing either. If your dog wont shut up or can't be contained in a kennel, the only option may be in a crate inside the house/garage/barn. Some dogs will try to get out of a kennel until they do but put them in a plastic crate they could chew up in 15 minutes and they are content to stay in it, instead of the larger kennel outside. Some of my dogs wont even potty in their kennel so if your trying to make the point that dogs can't relieve themselves, it's a mute point. I'm sure my male would be happier inside the house closed in a crate just because he would feel closer to me and being in the house is a reward for him or a special time.
> 
> Just I personally, would never say I wont sell a dog to someone who will crate it. A crated dog can still be a better taken care of dog than a couch lounger.


Michelle again you are missing the point! CRATING ONLY!!!!!!!!!!! LONG TERM, 8 HOURS.....and a working dog. And because I own it I can say who will buy it.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

No REALLY I'm not missing the point. People can, will and do crate dogs for over 8 hours all the time. That doesn't equate to a bad owner, even of a working line dog. I crate my puppy/high drive working lines, at night next to my bed for 9.5 hours. She tells me when she wants to go in(about 9pm) and I don't even set my alarm in the am anymore(630 wake up whine). This pup has not seen a kennel yet, beside the one she broke into when she was small enough to visit her brother. She gets free roam of the backyard in the daytime for now until she decides to get destructive. Should she get in my way (poof back into her crate while I am outsdie) She has this hose facination and goes nuts when I water the lawn. A crate is a great way to teach your dog how to have an off switch. 

Your right your dogs are yours to sell to who you please. I've never been into big hair dogs, so no sweat off my b-hinde.

Someday my pup will be old enough to roam the house without fear of accidents or chewed furniture. Until then she will sleep in a crate when I can't watch her every minute. Should I decide to leave town, then she will finally see a kennel. This one is going to be my house dog, she's too smart to waste her life outside away from me and the family. In a perfect world they could all sleep and live inside but I'm a bit of a clean freak. I doubt I would get much business with a dog smelling, hair encrusted house either.


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## Dan Long (Jan 10, 2008)

I think the most important thing for any dog- whether it's a working dog or a pet, is a stable temperament. A show line dog that is stable can be a good pet. A working line dog that is stable can be a good pet. A dog with any kind of temperament issues is not going to be a good pet, let alone be able to work. 

Regarding show lines, Howard probably thought I was bringing a piece of crap to him the 1st day we came out, knowing I had a West German line dog, but he passed the 1st test, passed the evaluation period, and has become a decent dog on the field considering we never did any bite training til he was 2 1/2 years old. I think his stable temperament is what has helped him have some success with the training. He won't ever be the hardest dog out there, but he isn't backing down from anyone either.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

I don't live in a box for eight hours but I sure could sleep in a box about the same size as me for eight hours.  From my experience my dog does nothing but sleep in a crate. I tried getting hubby to let him out when I'm not at home, cause I felt so sorry for him, and apparently he went out, pissed, and went right back into the crate. Didn't even wanna hang out in the backyard or in the living room. Apparently life stops when I'm not there...

I'd be more concerned about the quality time the dog is getting. Better a dog in a crate for 8 hours that goes out and gets totally exhausted and have loads of fun, than a kennel dog that gets about 15 minutes of interaction because owner justifies being in a kennel as part of exercise.

Crate is safer, too. In this world, I would sooner trust my dogs to be in a crate in the house than in the backyard where anyone might throw stuff into their kennels or break the locks and let them loose.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

"I'd be more concerned about the quality time the dog is getting. Better a dog in a crate for 8 hours that goes out and gets totally exhausted and have loads of fun, than a kennel dog that gets about 15 minutes of interaction because owner justifies being in a kennel as part of exercise."

Thank you Lyn, you got my point!


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Dan Long said:


> I think the most important thing for any dog- whether it's a working dog or a pet, is a stable temperament. A show line dog that is stable can be a good pet. A working line dog that is stable can be a good pet. A dog with any kind of temperament issues is not going to be a good pet, let alone be able to work.


BINGO!!!!! 

As for temperament issues. Sure some of these issues could be genetic. But most of these temperament issues are caused by poor initial groundwork. Like proper socialization, training groundwork and good old fashioned crate time. 

Pet people may buy a dog any dog with good intentions. But they lose something in the wash from 8 weeks to a year. Then that sets the precedent for the rest of the dog's life. 

If more people would research really what is required for caring and meeting the health and emotional needs of any dog beforehand. There would less of these crackerheads that give back a 14 week old working line GSD to the breeder because it won't platz for them. Seriously we had a crackerhead like that who showed up at our Ring club who just did that! 8-[ She was a great little dog just the guy was clueless!! Seeing that time and time again it makes you pretty numb to it.


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## Trish Campbell (Nov 28, 2006)

That's why when you place dogs you have to screen, screen, screen all potential owners. Even if you get a quality puppy from a great breeder, your dog is only as good as what you put into it. I think that is the hardest thing for some people to comprehend.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Geoff and Trish I agree 100%. Great points...


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

You see to me, the most important thing I'd look for in a breeder. Is breeder support after the sale of the pup. Wouldn't matter to me if I was looking for a pet or a dog for sport/work. 

Breeders can screen people as much as they want. The Breeder wants this and that from an new owner, get a contract signed etc. But really once the pup is gone what is stopping the new owner from being a crackerhead with your former pup? 

It is follow up after the sale that makes the difference. Little things like a vet or trainer recommendations. Maybe GTGs for your pups owners for group herding, protection etc. Or discounted boarding, how about obedience and living with your new pup consultations? 

I know we like to put the onus on the owners.


> There are no bad dogs, just bad owners.


 But new owners really don't have a clue and yet they get thrown to the wolves (pup) especially if they decide to have a pet out of working lines. Somehow the responsibility IMHO should be shared with the breeder along the way, to make sure the new owner is taking care of the physical and emotional needs of the young dog. 

Just thinking out loud .. :-k


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

I knew I was smelling Hemlocks burning! Thinking too loudly caused fires of passion to burn.:mrgreen:


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## Trish Campbell (Nov 28, 2006)

Geoff Empey said:


> You see to me, the most important thing I'd look for in a breeder. Is breeder support after the sale of the pup. Wouldn't matter to me if I was looking for a pet or a dog for sport/work.
> 
> Breeders can screen people as much as they want. The Breeder wants this and that from an new owner, get a contract signed etc. But really once the pup is gone what is stopping the new owner from being a crackerhead with your former pup?
> 
> ...


I agree with you on the breeder being supportive AFTER the sale AND being there for not just the good, but also the bad. I do still feel that developing a good relationship with the buyer and trying to continue that relationship after the sale is in the best interest for everyone. I want the owner and the dog to be successful wether if it's a companion or working home so I check in very frequently and try to stay involved. If the dog goes to a working home, the dog world is small, I can usually talk to people who see the dog at training  I of course can't control the owner after the dog leaves; but in the years I've been breeding I've been really fortunate with the way I do business. I've screwed up before as far as being deceived once-which is going to happen to everyone if you breed, but I've definitely learned to trust my instincts.


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## Guest (Apr 23, 2008)

>>>I've screwed up before as far as being deceived once

What happened?


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## Trish Campbell (Nov 28, 2006)

A situation where someone knew all the right things to say...I kept having this nagging doubt and I didn't pay attention to it and ended up regretting the placement of the pup.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Trish Campbell said:


> A situation where someone knew all the right things to say...I kept having this nagging doubt and I didn't pay attention to it and ended up regretting the placement of the pup.


Outside of a signed legal contract is there any avenues that you could do to take and get the pup back? Or are you stuck with the regrets?


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