# K9 apprehension



## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irpBEsNknro&feature=related

That guy must have been on some kind of concoction, he didn't even groan a bit. Happy he didn't hurt the dog.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Not everyone is afraid of a dog, not everyone falls to the ground in pain. The dog kept going back in and looked like he engaged pretty good. It's tough to get control when a person is oblivious to pain.

DFrost


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

David Frost said:


> Not everyone is afraid of a dog, not everyone falls to the ground in pain. The dog kept going back in and looked like he engaged pretty good. It's tough to get control when a person is oblivious to pain.
> 
> DFrost


It seems the guy was on drugs, i doubt any normal person will react the same way he did. Yh i agree the dog was really determined and strangely had a very good 'out'.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

no cop wannabe here just speaking as WD enthusiast, i thought that dog was about to break???

why they only ever send one dog, why not at least 2?

did much tissue damage even occurr to the crazy man?


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Should have sent a real dog, GSD.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> no cop wannabe here just speaking as WD enthusiast, i thought that dog was about to break???
> 
> why they only ever send one dog, why not at least 2?
> 
> did much tissue damage even occurr to the crazy man?


By break do you mean quit? if so, I didn't see that. Sending two dogs generally is reserved for demonstrations and TV. I didn't see any report of the damage done. Most officers don't post a lot of "trophy" shots of damage done during apprehensions on public forums. It's just not good policy.

DFrost


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## Keith Earle (Mar 27, 2006)

Dont start Jerry what where the top 5 Dogs that won at the Gathering lol


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Nice launch on the second bite.

Some wannabe badass who allegedly dealt with powerful dogs his whole life thought that Mal was a shepherd.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> did much tissue damage even occurr to the crazy man?


 The cool leather jacket probably mitigated some of the damage.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> no cop wannabe here just speaking as WD enthusiast, i thought that dog was about to break???
> 
> why they only ever send one dog, why not at least 2?
> 
> did much tissue damage even occurr to the crazy man?


If you watched the video to the end you would have seen that the dog was launching forward after being outed, that dog was far from breaking. And as a GSD fan i say that was a really nice dog.
When criminals start saying one breed of dog is tougher than the other then the breed arguments may hold water, so far both breeds kick ass and that's why they are both used in police and military functions.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

I see a lack of aprehension techniques in combination with the other officers. I see a handler freezing during his dog work.

This clip shows another reason why a dog should be on the leg out in the street.

Dick


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> I see a lack of aprehension techniques in combination with the other officers. I see a handler freezing during his dog work.
> 
> This clip shows another reason why a dog should be on the leg out in the street.
> 
> Dick


That was in the 80's. Cut us some slack. Probably one of the first Mals to come here.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

A leg bite wouldn't have made a difference with this guy.


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

When I watched it, I think that leather jacket probably had something to do with it then the dope was probably the other half. If anyone has ever felt one of those jackets, they are a tough, stiff, leather. Meant to minimize the damage on a motorcycle wreck.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Howard Knauf said:


> A leg bite wouldn't have made a difference with this guy.


Ok, in the US it makes no difference. In Holland it does...:roll:

( is that why you guyes can ('t) take the low-kickes....):-\"

Dick


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Ok, in the US it makes no difference. In Holland it does...:roll:
> 
> ( is that why you guyes can ('t) take the low-kickes....):-\"
> 
> Dick


 What I clearly meant was....in this case the guy is obviously oblivious to the pain. If you don't feel pain how is the leg bite gonna hurt him more? Leg bites on normal folks will bring them down. If you don't feel pain I don't see this guy going down. Hell, I've seen guys with broken limbs keep fighting when all doped up.

Conversely...people who aren't numb due to drugs will go down from a high bite just as easily as a low bite except maybe if they're running and they take a high bite they might run a bit further.

You've been around long enough to know.

BTW, I wonder where that dog came from and who did the initial training? Maybe it was another KNPV washout we stupid Americans bought.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

the vid has made me realise why mals are popular;

the money you save in buying a $2000 bite suit, you can get adequate protection from a $100 leather jacket and look cool as well.

isn't there some police principle in an apprehension where the officer can only use a level of force to meet the threat and no more - IDEA - send a memo to all the crims to send their wives and GF's to do the crime and mals will provide just the right amount of force in an apprehension.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

It wasn't a matter of a soft dog...it was a hard criminal with no nerve endings that night.

Maybe we can send Ernesto Hoost to kick him in the leg for us next time. Oops, my bad. What's a tiny thing like a broken femur to a guy who can't feel it?


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Howard we know, it's called razzing - relax.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Honestly as an avid GSD fan i still haven't seen any part of the video where that dog showed any weakness. The guy was just oblivious to pain, a normal person will react to a poodle bite even. The guy wasn't reacting at all.

Selena may have a point but i used to feel leg bites made it easy for the criminal to bend and hurt the dog.......anyway:-s


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Olu i used to think exactly that as well but consider a fleeing suspect a bite to the back of the thigh / calf/hamstring/butt makes perfect sense the guy will most likely fall instantly to the ground at speed with the dog on him, not him on the dog and the dog has plenty of wiggle room to maintain a bite and never be vulnerable to counter attack. 

anterior leg bites, i'm a beleiver.......all this is just thinking, never been employed in that field and never will. 

my hat goes off to all the handlers and dogs that do this for real and all the other fine people that keep us safe as possible.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Howard Knauf said:


> What I clearly meant was....in this case the guy is obviously oblivious to the pain. If you don't feel pain how is the leg bite gonna hurt him more? Leg bites on normal folks will bring them down. If you don't feel pain I don't see this guy going down. Hell, I've seen guys with broken limbs keep fighting when all doped up.
> 
> Conversely...people who aren't numb due to drugs will go down from a high bite just as easily as a low bite except maybe if they're running and they take a high bite they might run a bit further.
> 
> ...


Peter Aerts was known for his low-kickes, Howard..

Legbites DO make the difference. Its not only the pain that makes the difference, but also the technique-strategie that can-must be used.
Especially in combination of making control the suspect in working with your other collueges(sp)

We give that aspect a lot of attention here in Holland. I have developped and teached that aspect of training.
It is trained regularly at the IBT days ( police skils days ) in the police regions.
We think a very important aspect of K9 work is the training with other officers (not K9) so you-they know very well what to expect from eachother and they do not ~dive~at the suspect with five.

Dick


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Peter Aerts, right.

anyway...I have to admit that the backup officers were ill prepared or poorly trained in working with a K9 team. I see it all the time as does any handler on here. There never seems to be enough time, or training funds to get stuff like that done. Most times you just wing it. Even if all road cops were specially trained, they would soon forget without further training. Even the best trained guys lose their head in the heat of the moment.

The fact that some patrol dogs will hit an officer when they go hands on with the bad guy has cops afraid to get near the dog at all. I wish we had the dedication to train our guys like you do there. Sadly, doing the right thing isn't always high on the list for some administrators.


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## katrin bellyeu (Nov 5, 2009)

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irpBEsNknro&feature=related
> 
> That guy must have been on some kind of concoction, he didn't even groan a bit. Happy he didn't hurt the dog.



thanks for sharing. I haven't words for that. I looks like the man didn't realize anything. Too much drugs.?
Oh my god.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Howard Knauf said:


> Peter Aerts, right.
> 
> anyway...I have to admit that the backup officers were ill prepared or poorly trained in working with a K9 team. I see it all the time as does any handler on here. There never seems to be enough time, or training funds to get stuff like that done. Most times you just wing it. Even if all road cops were specially trained, they would soon forget without further training. Even the best trained guys lose their head in the heat of the moment.
> 
> The fact that some patrol dogs will hit an officer when they go hands on with the bad guy has cops afraid to get near the dog at all. I wish we had the dedication to train our guys like you do there. Sadly, doing the right thing isn't always high on the list for some administrators.


I hear what your saying Howard. I know. Those things are not that different here also. Choices made by "managers" not in the field, with different agenda's.
(cost me severe conflict with one of those managers...:roll

By the way its not that this attention in training between K9 units and other collegues was that way "for ages".

Its been realy structured over the last 10 years. In the region I worked as a K9-TD our training lokation was in the same center as where the selfdefence tests, firearmtests and other education takes place, So we, as K9 unit where near where every cop öut of our region "passes by"several times a year. That made it easier to direct those exercises. In the beginning there was fear with a lot of them, not knowing what to expect from the K9 in working together. Later, when they knew what can and what can't be done working with a K9-unit gave thrust. They could work together in a controlled way "shoulder to shoulder".

And believe me, before we were given the time to train together this way took a lot of PR. I developped techniques and showed them in combination with representive K9 units at any moment possible where "those managers" were present. (they also spent time at the training center...)
We have a saying in Holland; Unknown makes unwanted.. (hope you understand the masage in that).

Dick


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## James Degale (Jan 9, 2009)

Dick 

So if you buy a dog which is trained to do arm bites, do you re-train it to dog leg bite before they go out on the street? 

Which site of the leg do you train them to bite? Calf, thigh?

J


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

James Degale said:


> Dick
> 
> So if you buy a dog which is trained to do arm bites, do you re-train it to dog leg bite before they go out on the street?
> 
> ...


Thats right James. Its part of the aprehensiontechniques we teach the K9-teams.

They bite where they are being put.

Dick


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

I think that the leather jacket and being intox'd is what saved this crook from feeling the effects of the bite. The dog was not able to get his teeth very much past the jacket, if at all. 

A leg bite may have worked here because there would have been more penetration into the crook's skin. The crook may very well have felt that bite while he was able to ignore the minor penetration. 

Dick it sounds as if your comment _"They bite where they are being put."_ means that you have the handler take the dog to the crook and physically place the dog where he wants the bite. Is this correct? Any K−9 handler can do this. But I think that any K−9 handler who would approach within touching distance of this crook to "put the dog" on a bite, needs his head examined. 

This is a good example of what might be a problem with those find−and−bite dogs whose handler's "wait for the screams" to know that their dog has made a find. If this crook had an edged weapon and was willing to use it, things would have gone quite differently. But that's a separate discussion. lol


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Lou Castle said:


> I think that the leather jacket and being intox'd is what saved this crook from feeling the effects of the bite. The dog was not able to get his teeth very much past the jacket, if at all.
> 
> A leg bite may have worked here because there would have been more penetration into the crook's skin. The crook may very well have felt that bite while he was able to ignore the minor penetration.
> 
> ...


Thanks for reminding a rookie like me after 36 years on the force how dangerous criminals are...#-o


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Lou Castle said:


> I
> 
> If this crook had an edged weapon and was willing to use it, things would have gone quite differently. But that's a separate discussion.


Lou do you have any links to such a discussion - i am asking froma SG perspective - i always felt dogs from lot of what i seen in vids are left with too little support on a truly violent guy - i am not asying this from experience, just from a learner viewpoint and watching vids.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Thanks for reminding a rookie like me after 36 years on the force how dangerous criminals are..


Dick if you're advocating that this handler should have taken his dog by the collar and "put him on the bite" perhaps such a reminder is appropriate. It would be extremely poor tactics to approach this guy to "put the dog" on a leg bite. Wondering, would you advocate doing this with an armed criminal?


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## James Degale (Jan 9, 2009)

Lou Castle said:


> Dick if you're advocating that this handler should have taken his dog by the collar and "put him on the bite" perhaps such a reminder is appropriate. It would be extremely poor tactics to approach this guy to "put the dog" on a leg bite. Wondering, would you advocate doing this with an armed criminal?


He's not refering to operational bites, mate. 

He's talking about in training. You should know this.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

James Degale said:


> He's not refering to operational bites, mate.
> 
> He's talking about in training. You should know this.


Perhaps he is but I saw no statement of that fact. I think that you're making an assumption that may or may not be correct. Perhaps if, instead of a clever retort, Dick had merely answered my question, we'd know more and we'd not be guessing. 

A trainer can pattern train a dog to bite anywhere that he likes and it may hold on the street. But more than likely, when the dog gets stressed, he'll bite where he's most comfortable. That can come from training or it can come from what's inside the dog.


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## James Degale (Jan 9, 2009)

Lou Castle said:


> A trainer can pattern train a dog to bite anywhere that he likes and it may hold on the street. But more than likely, when the dog gets stressed, he'll bite where he's most comfortable. That can come from training or it can come from what's inside the dog.


Yes would be nice to understand SOPs from other departments but I am guessing it isn't realistic for them to spill beans on a public forum. On a close encounter the handler may place the dog using collar or harness direction. But on a long lead or pusuit, the dog will revert to training. In crowd control situation where it is very civil most dogs go for what is available. No mater what, it is important to get them comfortable to engaging different targets.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

James Degale said:


> . On a close encounter the handler may place the dog using collar or harness direction.


 Very rare in my experience.




> But on a long lead or pusuit, the dog will revert to training. In crowd control situation where it is very civil most dogs go for what is available. No mater what, it is important to get them comfortable to engaging different targets.


Agree


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Lou Castle said:


> Dick if you're advocating that this handler should have taken his dog by the collar and "put him on the bite" perhaps such a reminder is appropriate. It would be extremely poor tactics to approach this guy to "put the dog" on a leg bite. Wondering, would you advocate doing this with an armed criminal?


Thats *not* what I mean. Reading is a skil, don't you think.......

I was talking about aprehension techniques in working together as a K9-unit with other cops.

I know your reputation as a "mr. knowitall", so I don't feel the need of discussing this with you. 

As Jeff O would have said "go train a dog!!".

If I see any video of K-9 aprehansions in the US I see a lack of strategie. Just being a large country, does not mean you know it all.....](*,)

Getting beter start with being open minded an not being selfcentered. 8)

Try to listen to advise from people of the "old continent" sometimes.

Dick


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Thats *not* what I mean. Reading is a skil, don't you think.......


Writing is a skill as well. So is answering questions. Perhaps if you had simply answered mine, instead of responding with a smart-ass comment your meaning would have been clear. I still don't know if that's what you're advocating and I doubt that I'm the only one. I asked, _"Dick it sounds as if your comment 'They bite where they are being put.' means that you have the handler take the dog to the crook and physically place the dog where he wants the bite. *Is this correct?"*_ [Bold Added] 



Selena van Leeuwen said:


> I was talking about aprehension techniques in working together as a K9-unit with other cops.


That sure didn't come across in anything you said. Can you point out where you made reference to this please? Perhaps you can elaborate as to how your statement, _"They bite where they are being put."_ contains anything about _"working as a K9 unit with other cops."_ I sure don't see it. AND, it sounds more and more as if you're saying that this IS not just something that you do in training. It sure sounds as if you're telling us that this handler should have worked together with the other officers on the scene and that he should have _put the dog on a bite on the suspect's leg. _ Again, I'll ask, Is this what you mean?



Selena van Leeuwen said:


> I know your reputation as a "mr. knowitall", so I don't feel the need of discussing this with you.


Those who are losing arguments frequently turn to personal attacks and name calling. Too bad that you're unable to be polite and professional in this discussion. 



Selena van Leeuwen said:


> As Jeff O would have said "go train a dog!!".


These days I train dogs when I feel like it. Just came back from my 53rd seminar. Wondering if you can simply stick to the topic and keep yourself from making rude comments? 



Selena van Leeuwen said:


> If I see any video of K-9 aprehansions in the US I see a lack of strategie. Just being a large country, does not mean you know it all.....


First, we're only talking about one deployment here Dick, the one shown in the supplied video. The tactics didn't look too bad to me. Of course no deployment is perfect so perhaps you can enlighten us as to what the officers could have done better? 

Second, I'm far from "know[ing] it all. And I'm not speaking for the US, and it's foolish to make such a comment or to think that I'd even try. I'm speaking for myself. I'm only responsible for the dogs and the handlers that I train. I would NEVER train any handler to "put his dog" onto an actively resisting suspect as this one was, but it seems that is what you're suggesting should have been done. That requires that the handler approach close enough to the suspect so that he could easily be assaulted. THAT is a _"lack of strategy!"_ Putting a dog on a bite is something that might be done during training to get the dog to target a specific area, but it would rarely be done on the street and it was not a good option in this situation. 

And finally, I'm trying to recall any of the police K9 apprehension videos I've seen from Holland. Real apprehensions that is, not training vids; hmm, can't think of even one! Can you direct us to some of them so that we can judge the quality of the tactics for ourselves? 



Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Getting beter start with being open minded an not being selfcentered.


I'm probably the most open minded trainer around. I am capable of learning from anyone, from the rankest beginner to the most experienced guy around, if what they have to offer is of value. But telling someone to "put their dog" on an actively resisting suspect is NOT something that anyone should be teaching. 

As far as being _"self−centered . . ."_ I wasn't clear on something you wrote so I asked for clarification. That hardly seems _"self−centered."_ OTOH you responded to my query with a smart−ass comment. That DOES seem to be a bit on the _"self−centered"_ side. Pot−kettle−black. 



Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Try to listen to advise from people of the "old continent" sometimes.


If something is of value, I don't care what continent it comes from. But if it's as worthless and dangerous for the handler as what you've described, it becomes a good example of what NOT to do.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

OH GAWD

Not another worthwhile topic going down the nit picking, dissecting every sentence toilet? :-(


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Just trying to get some clarification and, at the same time, stop the spread of bad information Thomas. I must say that this post from you REALLY contributed to the thread. ROFL.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Lou Castle said:


> Just trying to get some clarification and, at the same time, stop the spread of bad information Thomas. I must say that this post from you REALLY contributed to the thread. ROFL.


Lou

It's nice to see you step up so quickly when I mention
nit picking and dissecting every sentence and I didn't even have to mention you by name ;-)
It's also amusing that you think Dick is spreading "bad information" and you need to "stop the spread"


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Oh here we go.... It had been an interesting thread!

Thomas and Lou, please come this way.......thankyou.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Lets can the BS! 
I think we should consider ourselves lucky when Dick decides to make a training post on the WDF.
Agree or disagree but there is no need to break down every little word spoken. That's nitpicking and childish!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Thomas Barriano said:


> OH GAWD
> 
> Not another worthwhile topic going down the nit picking, dissecting every sentence toilet? :-(



No. It won't.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Maybe we could relocate them to the new *** room ?????


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

maggie fraser said:


> Maybe we could relocate them to the new *** room ?????



Great idea maggie. You have to get VOTED to be a *** candidate.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> Great idea maggie. You have to get VOTED to be a *** candidate.


 
Not a problem....we can have a running poll.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

NOT in this discussion!


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> NOT in this discussion!


Of course. In the *** room !


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

maggie fraser said:


> Of course. In the *** room !





QUOTE: _Oh here we go.... It had been an interesting thread!
_

And in no way is this tangent contributing to the thread.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Thomas Barriano said:


> It's nice to see you step up so quickly when I mention nit picking and dissecting every sentence and I didn't even have to mention you by name


It's the same old Thomas whining the same old tune. It's not any more accurate than the other times you've sniveled about it. Obvious that you have nothing of substance to add, just the usual name calling and personal attacks. 



Thomas Barriano said:


> It's also amusing that you think Dick is spreading "bad information" and you need to "stop the spread"


When someone advocates what something that has application only in training as something that should be done in the field, as Dick appears to have done, I'll step up and say that it's a bad tactic.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

I told ya....get 'em in the *** room !!! Quick !!


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