# Marker Training



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Which technique do you like the best: verbal marker or mechanical clicker?


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## Larry Krohn (Nov 18, 2010)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Which technique do you like the best: verbal marker or mechanical clicker?


Verbal, more realistic and convenient


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## Lori Gallo (May 16, 2011)

Verbal. Mainly because I'm not coordinated enough to handle one and I tend to loose things...I always have my voice.


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## Chad Byerly (Jun 24, 2008)

Either verbal or mechanical. What's most important is to be sure we aren't overshadowing our intended mark with other preparatory movements, not reaching for reward either before or simultaneous to the click/mark (otherwise, the dog will be "marked" by our movement and will not notice the click/mark). The marker should be the first predictor of reward, especially since we don't want our dogs obsessed with our hand movements in life or competition. Just two cents.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

all I know is no matter what I tell the dog to do, if in drive or not in drive and downright sad looking...once I say "free" the dog looks to be like she just conquered her worst adversary...drive materializes in abundance...even when nothing is capped..no toys...no food...even just household BS...

might be in anticipation of reward....but I half think the free command itself is the reward...major drive boost regardless..sometimes it is scary..

typical bitch that doesnt like to be controlled I think...most likely...

can someone with more marker training experience explain this for me...


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## Chad Byerly (Jun 24, 2008)

So, your dog likes "free" a lot. Lots of dogs like their release, especially pushy independent dogs or dogs who've practiced high arousal freedom activities when released after obedience/control. I try to brain wash my dogs to be okay with being released but push me for more opportunities to work...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Chad Byerly said:


> So, your dog likes "free" a lot. Lots of dogs like their release, especially pushy independent dogs or dogs who've practiced high arousal freedom activities when released after obedience/control. I try to brain wash my dogs to be okay with being released but push me for more opportunities to work...


oh yeah...pushy is the word...have to be careful saying it sometimes


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Voice works best here, last time I was conditioning to a clicker, the little brat figured out that after the click came food, so he launched and I got seven stitches in the hand that held the clicker with razor sharp puppy teeth...LOL


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## Rachel M. Reams (Nov 29, 2012)

Mechanical clicker for training. More precise, for me, and zero confusion for the dog, because he doesn't have to figure out if I'm yammering at him or marking his behavior.

Verbal marker for maintenance; once the behavior is generalized I mark it with a conditioned secondary reinforcer and periodically pair the secondary reinforcer with a primary to maintain its value.


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Even though I do not use it (use verbal marker) the clicker has faster results due to consistency. In advanced work with a 3 person team (spotter uses clicker/electric), the clicker is a formidable training tool, black and white to the dog.

If training by yourself then the verbal marker is more manageable but wont be placing you at the Nationals or such.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Yes, I agree with Rachel and Faisal.

I almost always use a verbal marker (although each dog knows both), but not because it's better.

I'm careful about the verbal marker .... I don't use it in dog "conversation" and I do my best to use the same intonation. But I agree that there's no way for it to be as consistent as mechanical.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Chad Byerly said:


> Either verbal or mechanical. What's most important is to be sure we aren't overshadowing our intended mark with other preparatory movements, not reaching for reward either before or simultaneous to the click/mark (otherwise, the dog will be "marked" by our movement and will not notice the click/mark). The marker should be the first predictor of reward, especially since we don't want our dogs obsessed with our hand movements in life or competition. Just two cents.


Video is good for detecting this. I used a full-length mirror to practice back in the early marker days (not my idea, but it was a very good one) to watch my hand for telegraphing movement toward the bait bag.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I started with a clicker and occasionally still use it but verbal most of the time. The dogs' response seems equal to both. With leash correction and/or marker training the timing is critical. The good thing is when timing is off with markers the dog gets a free treat/bite/whatever. When the timing is off on a correction it's more of a "WTF was that for" with the dog. Then neither one is good for training.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Carol Boche said:


> Voice works best here, last time I was conditioning to a clicker, the little brat figured out that after the click came food, so he launched and I got seven stitches in the hand that held the clicker with razor sharp puppy teeth...LOL


Carol this is something I DON'T have to worry about, the clicker. High food drive is, I like to work them and ME when the hunger pains are starting to surface. Thinking here is the drive to do well AND get done means another cup of black coffee! Thanks...


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> all I know is no matter what I tell the dog to do, if in drive or not in drive and downright sad looking...once I say "free" the dog looks to be like she just conquered her worst adversary...drive materializes in abundance...even when nothing is capped..no toys...no food...even just household BS...
> 
> might be in anticipation of reward....but I half think the free command itself is the reward...major drive boost regardless..sometimes it is scary..
> 
> ...


Sounds like Khira. The marker is a release from the command state and that's the reward, not anything external.

T


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

I prefer mechanical markers. The timing is more precise and the noise is more consistent. Unfortunately, there are many times I resort to using a verbal marker because I don't have enough hands (or coordination) to hold a leash with an enthusiastic dog, food and a clicker. I like to already have the food in hand, especially if I'm trying to shape a behavior that is very difficult for the dog to offer on its own. I may need to lure a bit or otherwise use the food as a tool and I'm no good at holding food and clicker in the same hand.

Anyone know of a clicker you can hold in your mouth so both hands can be free? I think that would be a great idea if anyone is innovative enough to invent that (if it's not already out there).


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I'm careful about the verbal marker .... I don't use it in dog "conversation"


Funny you mention conversation. I have a general "release" with my dogs of "OK". It's just a "you can stop doing what you are doing right now" without a reward. I.E. I put them in a sit to put collars on or off, then "ok" they can go do whatever. Problem comes in is I found I say "OK" a LOT in normal conversation with my family. 

Caught my self saying my marker word one time. Couldn't figure out why they were acting like they took a hit of crack. :smile:


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Brett Bowen said:


> Problem comes in is I found I say "OK" a LOT in normal conversation with my family. /QUOTE]
> 
> I had the same problem. That's why I switched to YES as a release word. I very seldom say yes in normal conversation ;-)


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## kerry engels (Nov 7, 2010)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Brett Bowen said:
> 
> 
> > Problem comes in is I found I say "OK" a LOT in normal conversation with my family. /QUOTE]
> ...


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

Both. I lose clickers too often to rely on them as my only tool. Also in certain situations it is too hard to manage everything to make a clicker practical..food, tug, e-collar transmitter, etc.


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## Jami Craig (Jul 5, 2010)

Clicks are more accurate...

which is actually why I use mostly verbal markers, my mal will work himself up SO much with a clicker that it becomes less "learn something new" and more of trying to contain a lit stick of dynamite. Plus I lose clickers, don't want to remember to carry them everywhere, and sometimes don't have a free hand for a click.

I will use a clicker or beeper with my ACD if I'm having trouble communicating what I want with a verbal marker (or am doing something that disrupts the marker...like laughing...I teach him a lot of dumb things like getting me things out of the fridge).


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## Donna DeYoung (Jan 29, 2010)

I have several clickers, all sitting in drawer somewhere. My favorite is an ergonomic one.

too much to handle w/ leash and treats and my own timing. better w/ my voice. but when teaching a new behavior I try to be sure and use same inflection every time, more clicker like. Once dog knows behavior, I use more intermittent rewards and don't always say yes, just deliver food.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

When I coached soccer and wrestling I always used a loud voice. When the principal came into the classroom she asked me why I'm yelling at the kids...it's the voice! 8-[


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## Kevin Cyr (Dec 28, 2012)

no emotion in a mechanical clicker....


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Kevin Cyr said:


> no emotion in a mechanical clicker....


 Kevin are you saying this is a good or bad thing?


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## Kevin Cyr (Dec 28, 2012)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Kevin are you saying this is a good or bad thing?


always best for consistency. Timing remains of equal importance, but handler/trainer emotion, voice inflection/commands, words, other all remain conistency with a "click"


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## Louise Jollyman (Jun 2, 2009)

I use both and my dogs know both. Most of the time my hubby usually has the clicker, but I also use a noise I make with my mouth, that way I can choose to reward the dog too.


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

Verbal is like a sledge hammer, clicker is like a fine chisel. 

If I'm working on something I need precision for or I want to shape a new behaviour faster, clicker all the way. The dogs pick stuff up much faster and it's easier for them I find to pick up precise correct behaviours since the marker is so quick and short and consistent. 

I will use verbal for more general behaviours where I might not care about about details, ie if I want a sit by the door and the dog already knows to sit. If I want a specific kind of sit in a very specific spot, I would do the clicker.


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