# HDR Training Articles



## Anne Vaini

This probably sounds completely morbid. But I know that it can be hard to get scent articles for HRD detection. Is there a way to "donate your body to dog training" for lack of a better way to say it?


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## Daryl Ehret

HDR, my first thought was high-dynamic-range in photo post processing techniques and 3d CGI (computer graphics imaging).

HRD source material might not be so difficult to acquire if you know the right people. At least, that's the impression that SAR volunteers of my local group gave to me. When the scene of a crime or accident is about to be cleared and evidence collected etc., the local sheriff allows the SAR volunteers to be the first to enter the scene to collect their material.


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## Nancy Jocoy

It varies by state.

Here it is so agressive that even medical people cannot collect samples. Many of ours come from out of state. I could not even get my daughter's placentas even though I was right there when she tried to get them.


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## mel boschwitz

Have no idea if you can donate your body to SAR. Personally I doubt you can, and how weird to bring that conversation up with friends or families who may be passing on in the future (*lol*). If you're part of a SAR group they should be able to get indigent remains from the coroner's office. Check with dentist's offices about getting teeth-most are pretty willing to work with you. Make friends with first responders about getting them to gather up the nasty bits at a messy accident. Some states are less strict than others and you may be able to arrange to get placentas with area hospitals. We can do that where I'm at.

But as far as donating a body? Dunno.


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## Carol Boche

There is a way to do it and the best thing I can recommend is talking with an attorney about it to see what needs to be done. 

My mom has it in her will as well, although I am not sure how we will honor that. My wish is we never have to!!


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## Nancy Jocoy

The other issue has to do with size of aids. Things get a LOT dicier with transport when weight gets heavier. Honestly, we need to work on a state repository at a central location. And in a secured aea where we can lay them out. (One reason why some of us are very excited about the seminar in WCU)

Most of us don't need big stuff in our home freezers; we need variety. But we need to work the big stuff ocassionaly.


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## Rick Cadez Jr.

Good luck approaching your newly made first responder friend and asking them to pick some flesh up and bag it for you.


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## Jim Nash

In these days and times it's risky to be taking HR from accident scenes . 

I remember an article about a first responder who took a body part that had no possibility to be reattached from an accident scene . The media had a field day with it . I can see that with anything related to the victim being taken from an accident scene without family members' permission nowadays .


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## Bob Scott

There are many laws about being in possession of human remains without proper permits (Bio Haz). Getting a hold of it is just a part of the equation. 
What I had for training technically belonged to the organization I was with.


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## Nancy Jocoy

I do know cremains don't have too many restrictions on them. Just about everyone has cremains that they use for training and releasing those would at least be good.

I have my dad's but he was not into the dog stuff and made me promise I would not train on him and I have held to that. The gameplan is that when mom goes we will mix their ashes and bury them.


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## Steve Estrada

I tried to donate my knee as I had a replacement; as Nancy knows and it was all about bio-hazard & disposal. In other words about money. So I couldn't even get my parts back, they give them back when they work on your car


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## Bob Scott

Nancy Jocoy said:


> I do know cremains don't have too many restrictions on them. Just about everyone has cremains that they use for training and releasing those would at least be good.
> 
> I have my dad's but he was not into the dog stuff and made me promise I would not train on him and I have held to that. The gameplan is that when mom goes we will mix their ashes and bury them.



We just buried my 98yr old FIL last week. Super good guy had lived with us the past 8-9 yrs and died here at home.
Wife said if I go anywhere near his room with any tools, until he was take away, she was going to use a baseball bat on me. Wimmins! :roll: 
He would have loved the humor in that! 
I said I wanted to be put on a compost pile or, if the put me in the ground I wanted a fire hydrant as a head stone. Lots of strays in the cemetery. :wink:


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## Nancy Jocoy

I told my kids I wanted to be chopped up and sent to SAR teams around the world. THEY have been to Europe and Hawaii and Japan** and I have only gotten as far as Puerto Rico! 

They did not seem to receptive to my "tour the world" plan 

[Kids ate my travel budget, now it is the grandkids - I know the kids can't afford stuff like karate and gymnastics and other such stuff.........sigh.......SIL is a teacher and daughter dropped out of college...needs to go back to school and work part time.]

It is definitely a state thing; we even talked with and got a letter from our state saying that it was not illegal and we had to follow OSHA guidelines for BBP but still, nobody wants to be liable because of some highly publicized incidents (such as a doctor on the coast who went crab fishing with an amputated foot) -- Note -- I said DOCTOR. I treat anything I have with respect and dignity.

**they were all school related trips. Hawaii was a band trip to play at a cermony. Europe was German Club and Japan was to present a research paper at an international symposium.


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## Bill Creasy

Have your doctor/nurses draw blood and be sure to use the tubes with no chemicals added. You want the blood to clot normally and after 4 to 6 hours it can be used. I put it on gloves, rubber knives, and even straight on the ground. Works great.


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## Daryl Ehret

I can't see much legal issue occuring with the collection of bloodsoaked material, but I suppose there's different kinds of HR to scent on; blood soaked earth or cloth, decaying flesh, bones, vomit, excrement... and whatever else of significant difference in scent type. Last two listed might have less legal ramifications.

I suppose you train with all of that. All too gross, I just want to find live subjects, 'kay? Or searching for deer or elk remains would be fine. Better yet, to find some antler sheds, and have these dogs start paying for themselves.


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## Nancy Jocoy

We do not train with sewage, tampons, feces, urine, or semen. Good lord the dogs would hit on everything......

We actually train over septic fields sometimes [both positive and negative areas] so the dogs can learn to dismiss sewage.

We do train with blood but I think it is problematic if it is your primary training aid - same way people use teeth to the exclusion of other things. You need it all. 

I do like to train with a lot of bone because it gets the dogs scanning near the ground in a more focused fashion. It has really helped slow down my dog so that he does not blow over small sources. Blood and placenta are real good though for creating a large scent pool it seems.


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## Daryl Ehret

Well, they might hit on everything in an urban scenario, but it seems it could be more applicable to wilderness search. So bones/teeth, flesh and blood pretty much covers it? And are the dogs required to certify on each (meaning all) of the scent material categories?


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## julie allen

I have been lucky to have no trouble getting training aids here. I'm not sure about donating your body. In TN its illegal to possess a body but you can have all the pats you want lol. I would contact the pathologist at a training hospita, if you have any, or any hospital. Always had better luck there than any of the county coroners.


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## Sandra King

I read a German paper on HRD and surprisingly some of them actually work with rotting pigs because it is the smell and the organs are so close to humans. I know that the organs are close to human but the smell? I am really wondering if it works because if it does, it would solve a lot of problems, wouldn't it? 

Has anybody ever tried working with pig remains?


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## julie allen

Has anybody ever tried working with pig remains?[/QUOTE]



We were on a search few weeks ago and around a tree line there was a HUGE dead hog. The dog never missed a beat, ran right on passed it.
I have never trained on pig remains. I am not looking for dead pigs, so to me seems pointless to train for that.


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## Nancy Jocoy

We PROOF of of dead hogs

We have to because feral hogs are a real problem and the dogs have to discriminate between pig and human and they can! 

Obviously we are so similar that we can share body parts like heart valves and skin. Eccck has put me off of pork all together! I just can't eat it without gagging.


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## Nancy Jocoy

Daryl Ehret said:


> Well, they might hit on everything in an urban scenario, but it seems it could be more applicable to wilderness search. So bones/teeth, flesh and blood pretty much covers it? And are the dogs required to certify on each (meaning all) of the scent material categories?


It depends on the agency. Most require a spectrum including FRESH remains and that is the hardest to get and train on.


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## Sandra King

julie allen said:


> Has anybody ever tried working with pig remains?


 

We were on a search few weeks ago and around a tree line there was a HUGE dead hog. The dog never missed a beat, ran right on passed it.
I have never trained on pig remains. I am not looking for dead pigs, so to me seems pointless to train for that.[/QUOTE]

No, not training for dead pigs, they substitute it and train the dogs on pigs for human remain detection. 

In Germany it is really hard to train for HRD since it's mostly regulated by the Police and Government Agencies. They don't really want Civilians to train for that so they (the guy that wrote that paper) use pigs instead of human remains. 

I can't believe that it really works though... and I do not know how good those dogs really are if they are only worked on pig remains instead of humans...


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## Nancy Jocoy

Yes, they do that in Europe and it is absolutely stupid to even consider over here. I guess maybe they don't have a problem with feral pigs.

They still use pigs for some ballistica and scanvenging research studies though.


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## Michele Fleury

Yes, they train on pigs in Europe, but training on pigs as a stand in for human remains is a huge problem if you ever end up in court. Just look at the Theresa Parker homicide case out of Georgia I believe. The FBI brought in a guy from Europe that had trained on pigs and the cadaver dog evidence was not allowed at trial because the judge didn't think the dogs indications were reliable. The handler couldn't convince them that the dog was hitting on human remains/blood and not pig.

We work very hard to proof our dogs off of animal remains.](*,)


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## Jim Delbridge

Human remains components you need to train your dog on:muscle tissue, adipose tissue, bone, teeth, neural tissue - all combinations of these in various states of decomposition as theychange their chemcial structure throughout decomposition.Oh, there's also adipocere for those bodies that decomposed in wet climates. There are four chemical types of adipocere. Normally adipocere requires moisture with the body to form, but the body's own water content can suffice in certain conditions. Blood tends to be the easiest for handlers to get, but in actuallity I have never had LE ask me to locate the blood spatter for them. They tend to let their CSI techs do that with chemicals, lights, and such.Semen and urine are not useful to train on as they are a by-product of the living (along with feces and tampons).As it can be very difficult to get muscle tissue, adipose tissue, and adipocere, most handlers use placenta when they can get it. A midwife is the best connection I've found for placentas. The other materials have to be found by networking and depend on your state's laws.Oral surgeons are a nice avenue for teeth. I train on teeth because it's the last item left of our bodies after everything else is dust.Jim Delbridge


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## Daryl Ehret

Very informative, thank you.


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## Sandra King

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Yes, they do that in Europe and it is absolutely stupid to even consider over here. I guess maybe they don't have a problem with feral pigs.
> 
> They still use pigs for some ballistica and scanvenging research studies though.


We have just as much feral pigs over there as over here  
It's a big problem as well.


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## Sandra King

Well, I finally have something I can start off on. I have Placenta I can work with. 
I was thinking of actually building a behavioral shaping device and getting a ball machine since we are in need of Cadaver dogs. 

What do you guys think about the BSD?


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## Megan Bays

Jim Delbridge said:


> Human remains components you need to train your dog on:muscle tissue, adipose tissue, bone, teeth, neural tissue - all combinations of these in various states of decomposition as theychange their chemcial structure throughout decomposition.Oh, there's also adipocere for those bodies that decomposed in wet climates. There are four chemical types of adipocere. Normally adipocere requires moisture with the body to form, but the body's own water content can suffice in certain conditions. Blood tends to be the easiest for handlers to get, but in actuallity I have never had LE ask me to locate the blood spatter for them. They tend to let their CSI techs do that with chemicals, lights, and such.Semen and urine are not useful to train on as they are a by-product of the living (along with feces and tampons).As it can be very difficult to get muscle tissue, adipose tissue, and adipocere, most handlers use placenta when they can get it. A midwife is the best connection I've found for placentas. The other materials have to be found by networking and depend on your state's laws.Oral surgeons are a nice avenue for teeth. I train on teeth because it's the last item left of our bodies after everything else is dust.Jim Delbridge


Thanks for this explanation Jim! Very informative, and I've always wondered about this.


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## Nancy Jocoy

Sandra King said:


> Well, I finally have something I can start off on. I have Placenta I can work with.
> I was thinking of actually building a behavioral shaping device and getting a ball machine since we are in need of Cadaver dogs.
> 
> What do you guys think about the BSD?


Honestly, Sandra I would not worry about supplying a cadaver dog for your team until you have down all the basics and have trained an airscent dog and worked one for awhile. There are a lot more nuances to HRD than airscent, particularly if you are getting criminal calls. 

Until we took a few years to build a solid foundation in cadaver work, we called in GOOD teams on mutual aid and watched them work [you should have zero problems finding that] and went to a lot of seminars. You build relationships with other teams, see each others dogs work and find out the you start getting called in on mutual aid calls yourself (even with my rambling on the barking water dog, our dogs have been called in by 5 other teams for water calls because of success rate) - and you will need those networks to consult with on difficult cases.

I am still exploring starting my next dog but I am not going to worry about the indication until the hunt is down solid.


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## Sandra King

That is pretty much what I am doing right now. I guess my Mentor thinks that I am capable of doing it, however, I am not going to rush anything. Just collecting info, going to Seminars, training and learning as much as I can.


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## Jim Delbridge

Sandra,
I think what Nancy is trying to convey is that a lot of civilian groups think of HRD as an afterthought. Most civilian SAR handlers start with the attitude of helping and that's a good thing. Most harbor a "work with Lassie to help Timmy get out of the well." (Old 50's-60's television show). Many groups discover later on that it's handy to have some HRD dogs on hand for when the authorities react too late to decide to use dogs to search.
Unfortunately, there is a prevalent attitude that if a dog team can do area search that they can do HRD as well. The book, "Cadaver Dog", helped propogate this myth. When I help cross-train area search dog teams, I only let them train on fresh material because I do think there is a need for area search dogs to be able to find their victim that died before they could get to them. That and in natural disasters, the blood scent might lead them to an unconscious person that my dog would step on and past to find the blood and ignore the living. I don't work my dogs in natural disasters except to clear rubble of human remains before it can be bull-dozed away or to clear trash laden waterways of any possible bodies.

It's hard to convince area search dog handlers that HRD work forces the handler to become much sharper at reading dogs. It's hard to convince search dog handlers that HRD requires the handler to become versed at scent theory. Again, "Cadaver Dog" tries to convince the handler that scent from a decomposing body acts just like scent from a live body. A live person is a continuous hot air scent source that pushes gases out up into the air that the wind can catch. Except in active decomposition a body's temperature will be air temp or less depending on the conductive heat transfer of the environment. The outgassing of chemicals often drop to ground level and are at the whim of the sun, micro-environments, water, etc. It does help to know the scent theory of trailing and area search before going the next step of HRD. Unlike these venues, the scent sources of HRD are often hidden by the "bad guys" hoping to escape being found out. HRD dog handlers rarely have the luxury that area search and trailing dog handlers have of seeing their victim. For many going from area search to HRD, losing this "answer in the back of the book" is loss of a major crutch in their confidence with their dog. The only way to really get past this is to train train train on knowns to learn what your dog does in scent and then prove your knowledge in blind problems where you are forced to totally depend on the dog (something a lot of handlers just can't do).

I can go on, but the point I'm trying to make is that HRD is a long road where the handler has to build up a foundation as much or more so than any dog they work. I tend to tell those I teach that they should expect their current dog to be their "mistake dog" for the next one. Some get lucky and get a dog that does the work despite the handler. Make no mistake, with a decent HRD dog team, the handler is the weakest link, myself included. Most train with good intentions, but when things get dicey in a real search, the handler can make many choices from making excuses for their dogs, for the situation, the environment. The more I do this, the more hardened I become that every search is a test that can either support the reputation I've built over years or blow it away for good in one mispoken word or doing something stupid with my dog. Unlike area search, most real searches in HRD could result in a trial. You have to be prepared to show all your training logs and they better demonstrate that your dog is not totally perfect but has flaws. You must then log what you did to fix those flaws. The entire career of the dog will be proving it can do what you say it does and does not indicate on anything human due to diligent and repetitive training.

If your dog is in pain, you can't train it on scent as long as it is in pain as that will most likely act as a passive correction to the dog in scent to where it will create an avoidance while still wanting to appear to please you. Part of my dogs' training is they make a find and I ignore them. Some times they make a find and I act like they are full of crap. They must sell me on the find because they love the scent and they demand their reward. They make the finds not because of loving me, but despite me. That's what you will need to have in an HRD dog. The remains definitely don't play ball with them, feed them, or make nice rewarding sounds at them like a live victim does. It's all on you. If you and the scent can't light the dog's fire, then HRD will not be for you.

With that, I wish you luck in whatever you choose to do with the dog.


Jim


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## Nancy Jocoy

Jim, I think you expressed that very well.

You have been in the cemetery far longer than I (who am in there long enough to know that what I don't know exceeds what I do know about forensics/archeological searches) and are much more articulate. There is such a learning curve for this stuff and other than (a)somebody drowned (b) hunter found a bone, this is what we get calls for - some "tip" and this is where we have put more training focus for the cadaver dogs, all of which are strictly HR.

For live find dogs cross trained - for RECENTLY dead is a real bonus. We have taken to taking HR dogs with us on all searches as many dogs act differently enough that we think to put an HR dog in the area a dog is showing a strange behavior while live dogs are still working. [Since our air scent dogs scent discriminate and are used to working overlapping sectors it is no big issue there]

But what do most cross trained handler train on but OLD decomp. THe rally rank stuff! The stuff a fresh body does not smell like.

Then they get into real trouble doing forensics stuff. 

I guess that is why I was saying don't rush it. Build your building blocks. Air scent training gives you some foundation in reading the dog and working out scent....Get real good at that then think now of scent moving underground as well as above ground, being pulled into and incoporated into plant life, and pooling for loooong periods of time, not just a 24 hour scent pool like you may get with a live human. 

Now, if your mentor has a lot of honest to god true forensics HRD experience and can really walk you through it. Go for it. ....but there are precious few people in the entire country that have that level of expertise. And a lot teaching HR that have zero true search experience!


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## Carol Boche

Jim Delbridge said:


> Sandra,
> I think what Nancy is trying to convey is that a lot of civilian groups think of HRD as an afterthought. Most civilian SAR handlers start with the attitude of helping and that's a good thing. Most harbor a "work with Lassie to help Timmy get out of the well." (Old 50's-60's television show). Many groups discover later on that it's handy to have some HRD dogs on hand for when the authorities react too late to decide to use dogs to search.
> Unfortunately, there is a prevalent attitude that if a dog team can do area search that they can do HRD as well. The book, "Cadaver Dog", helped propogate this myth. When I help cross-train area search dog teams, I only let them train on fresh material because I do think there is a need for area search dogs to be able to find their victim that died before they could get to them. That and in natural disasters, the blood scent might lead them to an unconscious person that my dog would step on and past to find the blood and ignore the living. I don't work my dogs in natural disasters except to clear rubble of human remains before it can be bull-dozed away or to clear trash laden waterways of any possible bodies.
> 
> It's hard to convince area search dog handlers that HRD work forces the handler to become much sharper at reading dogs. It's hard to convince search dog handlers that HRD requires the handler to become versed at scent theory. Again, "Cadaver Dog" tries to convince the handler that scent from a decomposing body acts just like scent from a live body. A live person is a continuous hot air scent source that pushes gases out up into the air that the wind can catch. Except in active decomposition a body's temperature will be air temp or less depending on the conductive heat transfer of the environment. The outgassing of chemicals often drop to ground level and are at the whim of the sun, micro-environments, water, etc. It does help to know the scent theory of trailing and area search before going the next step of HRD. Unlike these venues, the scent sources of HRD are often hidden by the "bad guys" hoping to escape being found out. HRD dog handlers rarely have the luxury that area search and trailing dog handlers have of seeing their victim. For many going from area search to HRD, losing this "answer in the back of the book" is loss of a major crutch in their confidence with their dog. The only way to really get past this is to train train train on knowns to learn what your dog does in scent and then prove your knowledge in blind problems where you are forced to totally depend on the dog (something a lot of handlers just can't do).
> 
> I can go on, but the point I'm trying to make is that HRD is a long road where the handler has to build up a foundation as much or more so than any dog they work. I tend to tell those I teach that they should expect their current dog to be their "mistake dog" for the next one. Some get lucky and get a dog that does the work despite the handler. Make no mistake, with a decent HRD dog team, the handler is the weakest link, myself included. Most train with good intentions, but when things get dicey in a real search, the handler can make many choices from making excuses for their dogs, for the situation, the environment. The more I do this, the more hardened I become that every search is a test that can either support the reputation I've built over years or blow it away for good in one mispoken word or doing something stupid with my dog. Unlike area search, most real searches in HRD could result in a trial. You have to be prepared to show all your training logs and they better demonstrate that your dog is not totally perfect but has flaws. You must then log what you did to fix those flaws. The entire career of the dog will be proving it can do what you say it does and does not indicate on anything human due to diligent and repetitive training.
> 
> If your dog is in pain, you can't train it on scent as long as it is in pain as that will most likely act as a passive correction to the dog in scent to where it will create an avoidance while still wanting to appear to please you. Part of my dogs' training is they make a find and I ignore them. Some times they make a find and I act like they are full of crap. They must sell me on the find because they love the scent and they demand their reward. They make the finds not because of loving me, but despite me. That's what you will need to have in an HRD dog. The remains definitely don't play ball with them, feed them, or make nice rewarding sounds at them like a live victim does. It's all on you. If you and the scent can't light the dog's fire, then HRD will not be for you.
> 
> With that, I wish you luck in whatever you choose to do with the dog.
> 
> 
> Jim


Very well said Jim!!!


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## Daryl Ehret

On one level, I think it's inspiring, the depth of knowledge that involves this discipline. On the other side, I simply can't fathom what morbid fascination could drive someone to _want to do this_. This might be a dumb question, but what exactly is learned in airscenting that will later translate as directly useful knowledge to HRD? Or, is it just a matter of experience in general search proceedures, and a developing ability of the handler toward an understanding of how to read the dog?


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## Nancy Jocoy

David, General knowledge

Strategy for how to work an offlead dog, how to read a dog. And like airscent, odor is coming from primarily a point (or several point) source(s) -- Any way you cut it, odor is odor.

Also general experience dealing with going to a live search, going on a cadaver search etc. For the same reason I think people should go on live searches as flankers before they ever get to deploy a dog. Watch people with experience, keep your mouth shut (unless you see something then tell the dog person), then ask them questions after the search.

Morbid? I don't know. I love doing this but am NOT the person who will run to see a dead body, slow down traffic rubbernecking at a car wreck, etc. All I can think of is "that's someone's father, or child, or whatever"


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