# Heatstroke



## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

A reminder to everyone to keep a closer eye on their dogs now that summer is upon us... 

My first mal, Cyko, heatstroked this sunday. I really thought he wasn't gonna make it, was at the point of collapse, tremors, bloody vomiting and diarrhea, temp was well over 107F, higher than I could measure. Luckily he is young enough and tough enough to survive the immediate crisis... Steadily improving now, but I don't know yet if there is any longterm damage (organ damage?) or anything like that.

FYI - Ice and ice water enema is the fastest way to bring down body temp. Speaking from experience here. That one first aid measure is probably the main reason he is still alive.

Anyone else here have experience with heat stroke? Were there any side effects, long term?


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Anna Kasho said:


> Anyone else here have experience with heat stroke? Were there any side effects, long term?


Yes, and it happened about an hour from any type of medical help. His tongue turned dark purple and he was making a terrible sucking sound as he was trying to get air. The best I could do was stop the truck and walk him over to a bog/pond type thing. I got in with him and grabbed muck and grass from the bottom and covered him in it. 15 minutes later he had recovered.

In terms of organ damage from that event, I do not believe so. I cannot be certain however. I don't know if pre anesthetic blood work would have revealed any if there had been. But if it could, then I would be able to say that it's very likely that it did not. The primary difference from that point forward is that he seemed to be more susceptible to overheating after that.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

You know it’s a bad day when the best option is ice up the dogs ass. Lots of it too, You’re lucky you had it.
Luckily not with my dogs but I seen a few others, I don’t think the older ones were ever really 100% after. 
Can you tell us more about what you were doing before it happened and what you seen as things went bad. Do you think there were signs earlier that you ignored? If so what were they? Was your dog acclimated to these the temps? For how long? Does it live inside in AC and ride in an AC car then get called to work? Or is it an outside dog?
Sorry for the questions


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

I just want to add this link again, and then back on topic.

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBul...p-your-dogs-cool-15676/index5.html#post343376

Every line is worth reading, IMO, but this part might be unknown to some owners:
_
Watching temperature: If you feel your dog is in danger of heat injury, check its temp and write it down. Keep checking the temp every 3 minutes. I recommend to get a "rectal glass thermometer. The digital ones for the drug store I have found to be very unreliable, Don't forget to shake it down completely each time, sounds silly, but when are worried about your companion, things tend to get mixed up. *This is VERY IMPORTANT**:*once the temp STARTS to drop, STOP ALL COOLING EFFORTS. The cooling process will continue even though you have stopped. If the temp starts at 106.5, and then next time it drops to 105.5, stop cooling the dog, dry it off, and continue monitoring. You will be amazed how it continues to go down. If you do not stop until the temp is 102, the temp will drop way too low. I cannot emphasis this point enough._

Anna, I am so sorry, and so glad you were able to save the dog.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

One of the side effects is the ease at which it can happen again to the same dog.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> One of the side effects is the ease at which it can happen again to the same dog.


Yes, I've read that repeatedly. Once it happens, uber-caution is called for.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Anna, I am so sorry, and so glad you were able to save the dog.


I didn't say this earlier but I agree on both accounts. I can imagine that rattled you, it's tough to watch a dog go through that.

About what I mentioned earlier about his tendency to overheat was problematic - keep in mind this is up in AK where it doesn't get all that warm. I frequently had to transport him pre cooled (he overheated while in transport) but this occurred after he and my bitch had a bear encounter. The bear was shot and killed but that activity along with long transport time and then sitting in what I thought was a well ventilated area led up to him stroking out.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Connie that is good stuff. Regarding the evaporation is there any science to the part regarding comparing it to sitting in a tub? I just wonder if the evaporation thing is as effective on a dog as it is on a person? Someplace there is some science to it for humans. Has something to do with the humidity not allowing for evaporation in turn not allowing for cooling to take place you just cook wet? 
 I would think it really matters how cool the water the dog is in? Meaning if I had access to a tub of water with a temp of 60 degrees ( compared to 80) I would think the dog is better staying in it than getting out and drying. I would think the “warm” water around the dog is due to the heat leaving the dog and water in full contact should remove heat faster that evaporation at some specific temp line? And I would think that something like a moving stream would be even better. And I think the humidity level has a lot to do with cooling by evaporation. I think over 60 percent humidity cooling by evaporation becomes pretty ineffective at higher humidity it may not be to helpful at all. At some point once the humidity is high enough sweat or water does not evaporate so I would think you or the dog would be better submerged? 
I think I am over thinking this, and I am not going to spend an hour or 5 goggling it. I believe you I believe you.


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Too true about it being more likely to happen again. He's overheated once before which was totally my fault, before him I had no experience with dogs who do not quit and will work until they drop. The first time wasn't bad at all, but he's been more sensitive since and I have been careful with him... obviously not enough.

Chris - he is acclimated to the temps, and we have no AC. And it wasn't even that hot, but full sun, and higher humidity than usual. He was outside in the yard, usually he is actively "guarding" by trotting the perimeter and checking all the gates and doors. This is normal, and he has been in much hotter temps and was OK. There is plenty of shade available, water too, he can jump in the koi pond to cool off and usually does. I can only guess that something went on that caused him stay out in the sun the entire time, in high drive? People around the house or at the gate/fence? No idea, really. I am lucky that I got home when I did, and lucky that I knew what to do for first aid. 

Connie - good info. Scary how much of it DOESN'T apply to my dog, he was beyond wetting/alcohol, or drinking water, or much else. He was concious and aware the entire time, but only just. He was able to get up, staggered into the house and collapsed. Black tongue, shallow breathing, faint rapid heart beat, muscle tremors. I can't believe he is still here.

Ice up his ass, is the fastest way to drop core body temp, esp with him that far gone. Wetting cools the outside only, takes a lot longer for the core temp to drop. I don't see this mentioned very often, but here it is, in hopes this may save someone else's dog in an emergency.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Sorry to hear about your boy. I hope he makes a full recovery.

I have seen heat stroke to the point where the dog is sloughing their intestines as they are dying. Truly an awful sight and smell, believe me. 

However, ice and ice water are actually not recommended as a treatment. Cool water is the way to go. This article explains why:

http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&S=0&C=0&A=366

I bring a cooler with reusable cold packs to just about every trial and event that I can in case they are needed. Even had to do this at a dog adoption event where it was 90 F on April 1st this year and one of the dogs was starting to get heat injury! Anyways, you want to put the cold packs in their underarm and groin area where the larger axillary and femoral arteries are respectively so it cools the blood as it goes by. One of the keys is not to cool the dog much beyond about 102.5-103 F because they will experience what's called rebound hypothermia and their body temperature will actually drop dangerously low after the cooling. (edit: sorry, was slow posting this, didn't see Connie's, but yeah...)

What I have our club members do is after each session of bite work is work them real short, like 3-5 bites is all, but do 2-3 sessions instead of 1-2 longer sessions. Don't run the dog straight back to the car. First walk them out for a good 5 minutes before they get a drink. When they do get a drink, give them enough for 10 laps maximum and then take it away. Let them cool down so they are not panting very heavily and then give them just a little more water.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Applied ice shrinks blood vessels near the surface of whatever part(s) you are icing, actually potentially delaying cooling.






ETA

Good link, Maren. Explains the ice issue much better than I did.


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Applied ice shrinks blood vessels near the surface of whatever part(s) you are icing, actually potentially delaying cooling.


Has anyone actually done this? How fast would cool water(inside or outside) drop a 55lb dog's core temp?

I am thinking probably 15-20 min from well over 107F to 103F with ice, but I wasn't keeping track of time too well then.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

I logged back in to say that I'm sorry if anything sounded like it was critical of you. You saved your dog's life, keeping yourself together in a highly charged situation and administering to him promptly and and *saving him*. 


I applaud you and admire you. 


All these bits of info were/are added because of the thread topic and the opportunity to provide the best and most authoritative advice I've been able to find, like that essay (originally written about/for working Labrador Retrievers) by Nate Baxter, DVM, which I post every time the subject comes up. Because I found it a decade ago (maybe more), I've compared what he says with much newer material and manuals. He sure seems to have it nailed down.

*
But you saved your dog*. Believe me, I'm not trying to detract from that with info links.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Anna Kasho said:


> Ice up his ass, is the fastest way......


I'm not trying to be funny, but how does the dog react to this?


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Christopher Smith said:


> I'm not trying to be funny, but how does the dog react to this?


Serious answer? Laying flat in the bathtub, occasionally wobbling his head up to look at me and dropping it with a thunk, twice vomiting blood/mucus and what looked like shreds of stomach lining, and passing lots of thin bloody diarrhea as the ice melted. Started drooling, thick ropey strings of drool, when temp got to 105-something. Breathing changed from rapid and shallow to more normal as temp dropped further. Heartbeat got stronger. Stopped cooling when temps got to around 103F or so... Then were off to treat him for shock, fluids, antibiotics, etc.


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I logged back in to say that I'm sorry if anything sounded like it was critical of you.


Aw, no, I didn't take it as critical... Just the way my mind works, can't help questioning and putting practical ahead of theory. And also questioning my understanding of all the compiled bits of info that I remembered, in case there is a better/faster way, what to do differently next time... Kinda what Chris wrote about thinking of different ways of cooling and what would be more efficient and when.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> I'm not trying to be funny, but how does the dog react to this?


I know Anna replied to this already but when I read your question I thought maybe you've never been to that point yourself. What I mean is the point where you were either so sick or in so much pain that anything other than what you were feeling was welcomed even if it's just a different kind of terrible. 

I haven't been there many times but enough to know that kind of physical condition takes you to a place where reaction isn't something that even crosses your mind. It's like they (mind and body) are entirely separate at that point. I can't imagine that this would be much different for an animal in a similar condition.


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

I catch crap all the time during the hot times of the year when I don't want to work my dog when it's supposed to be 100 on the field or I work very short sessions. High drive dogs want to keep going like the Energizer Bunny so we with our opposable thumbs need to make that consensus decision not to over work them. Even then things can appear so quickly it becomes a matter of life and death at the drop of a hat.

Very glad that your dog recovered.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Glad that your dog recovered. Good warning to those of us who keep dogs outside for acclimitization that they will not have the sense to chill out.


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## Melissa Blazak (Apr 14, 2008)

So glad you saved your dog! You acted fast and did what you could at home. I imagine a more panicked individual with less knowledge would have tried to hustle the dog to the vet and that extra time could have cost him his life.

We have been baking in heat and humidity in Southern Ontario. Field classes have been cancelled. Even some of the ponds we train in are so warm now the ducks don't last. 

My poodle gives 150% to everything. 3 or 4 frisbee throws at 6 am in the weather we are having can put him over the edge. Swimming and retrieving has been the only safe thing for a while now. For outside competitions and travelling I now have more shade cloth, rehydration supplements, a 12v power source and powerful fan. 

I think I will add some syringes now to my first aid kit. Thanks for all of the advice.


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

Chris McDonald said:


> Connie that is good stuff. Regarding the evaporation is there any science to the part regarding comparing it to sitting in a tub? I just wonder if the evaporation thing is as effective on a dog as it is on a person? Someplace there is some science to it for humans. Has something to do with the humidity not allowing for evaporation in turn not allowing for cooling to take place you just cook wet?
> I would think it really matters how cool the water the dog is in? Meaning if I had access to a tub of water with a temp of 60 degrees ( compared to 80) I would think the dog is better staying in it than getting out and drying. I would think the “warm” water around the dog is due to the heat leaving the dog and water in full contact should remove heat faster that evaporation at some specific temp line? And I would think that something like a moving stream would be even better. And I think the humidity level has a lot to do with cooling by evaporation. I think over 60 percent humidity cooling by evaporation becomes pretty ineffective at higher humidity it may not be to helpful at all. At some point once the humidity is high enough sweat or water does not evaporate so I would think you or the dog would be better submerged?
> I think I am over thinking this, and I am not going to spend an hour or 5 goggling it. I believe you I believe you.


 
Chris, I think what is unique with dogs as opposed to people is the fur. I know that sounds stupidly obvious! :razz:

But in the article it warned about putting up a wet, overheated dog into a crate or car. I hadn't thought about it much then. It also discussed using only running water on the dog and not immersion. I beleive that unless the water is constanly changing, (i.e. running), the water closest to the skin, in the fur, actually works as another form of insulation. Water actually is a great insultator if there is no ability to exchange heat with the air. 

So sponging the dog is preferred to immersion. Laying in a running creek is better then immersion. One thing I have recently noticed since becoming aware of this from an earlier posting of this article is that I think the dogs even understand this. 

I've been watching some of the SAR dogs in the heat recently and noticed on several occassions, they choose to lie in the shallow parts of a stream rather then the deeper sections where their backs would be covered. Maybe it was coincidence or my imagination after reading the article. But I've noticed enough recently that I'm thinking there is more to it than just dumb luck of where the dog enters the water. I'd be curious if other handlers notice this. Maybe they will now if they start looking for it. 

Our first instinct as humans is that immersion is best cause that is what works for us best. But we don't have the fur, which in immersion in still water, keeps the same water held tightly to the body until it warms and turns into a insulator itself. Since the bellies have less fur, heat exchange is much better and laying only partially submerged is better for the dog while keeping a dry back and sides.

Also the type of cooling is important. Dogs mostly cool themselves via evaporative cooling,via panting. Same as humans do when sweating. This is greatly impaired by high humidity but at least sweat rolls off of people. When that happens you aren't cooling by evaporation but by conduction which is much less efficent. You sweat, the heated sweat rolls off as it is replaced by more sweat. 

Dogs don't have sweat glands in their skin. So with a fur coat holding the water, and high humidity, the evaporation effect along the skin would be almost zero and the water winds up sitting there not being displaced and increasing the insulation. There is little to no conduction happening. Running water can at least displace some of the water out of the fur and replace it with cooler water. 

I had never really given that much thought until reading that article and reading the warnings of putting a dog up wet. But it makes a heck of a lot of sense.

Serious kudos to Anna for saving her dog! I'm sure I would not have thought of the ice water enema myself. I'll tuck that tidbit somewhere in the gray matter now and hope I never have to use it.

Craig


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## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

High heat and humidity makes people more aware of heat injury to dogs but dogs can overheat in fairly cool temperatures given the right combination of conditions (ie lots of sunlight reflecting off of snow, high level of exertion, coat colour of dog and how well hydrated the dog is, etc) 
There are some really good links and info in this thread - I am so sorry yo have had to deal with this first hand Anna and I hope your dog recovers without any lasting effects.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i've learned a lot from these heatstroke/cooling threads ... 

anyhow, i'm boarding a gsd that has never lived in high humidity and heat like we have in this part of Japan. since it's also still in the monsoon season there's lots of rain and he definitely gets wet. so far i haven't noticed him overheating or getting lethargic, but as an extra precaution i am also using the blower on him a LOT more than usual. mostly to keep him dry, but i'm also thinking circulating air thru the coat and over his skin will help keep him more comfortable. the tapered nozzle i use really cuts right thru the fur .... i'm aware of how dogs cool and know they don't have sweat glands in the skin, etc., but curious if giving him the frequent blowing is helping to do anything positive.

fwiw, the air from the blower is NOT heated air at all. i would call the temp "ambient", but seems a bit cooler than the surrounding temp, but maybe that's just because it's moving faster with a lot of force.

anyone have any opinions ?
at least i know it constantly removes loose fur so there is less of it to "insulate" with, and he is a german shedder of course 

also, the big fan i have blowing air thru his kennel area definitely feels better than the heavy humid ambient air around him... at least it does to me and that's where i'm spending most of my time these days


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I have always relied on moving air. I know in the truck that they seem comfortable even at ambients around 100 if air is moving and they are in the shade. At home, once it gets to 100, I bring him in. (but I work from home and can keep an eye on him)

Above 90 I have them take breaks every 20 minutes or so while working even if they don't feel like it (which they usual don't). Its 91 right now and Beau is running around the yard with toys and jumping in and out of his wading pool. One thing. They CAN overheat swimming in the water. I have seen it come close to that. (Ears got bright red, tongue thick - pulled the dog out and put under the fan in the shade)

Glad for the reminder. I try to carry a small ice chest with wet towels by the time you wring them out a little they are not so cold. As good for me as for the dog. One around your neck works wonders.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

What I do for my two outside GSDS.
Record heat for many in the US this year. We had ten straight days of 100F + and are starting the same cycle all over again with 105 being today's predicted temp.

My dogs have plenty of shade in much of my small back yard. 
Covered patio with ceiling fan and a floor mounted box fan. Both going 24/7
5 gal water bucket that is changed 2-3 time a day. 
Bellies watered down at least once a day. (One dog now stands by the hose when I go outside).
Hoses laying/rolled/stored in the sun will have VERY hot water in it even after just a few mins. Be sure to let it run till it feels cool before wetting dog's belly.
I don't like to wet down the complete dog. The coat will help insulate from the heat because of air space, no matter if it's short or long. I have one of each. Wet it down completely and the heat transfers directly to the skin. With plenty of shade I don't "think" it would be as much of a problem. In the sun just think about how hot a pair of jeans get when you go pond swimming in the sun. If you haven't had that experience then wet down your jeans, trousers, whatever and sit in the sun for a bit.


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

I have come close to scary before.... not quite as bad as this. Dog couldnt stand up and if he tried was falling over losing balance, couldnt catch his breathe. I had just written an article based on a bunch of research and applied what I learned, saved us from a trip to the vet.

Quick dip in pool to start the cooling process, then running water on groin (and underside/ pits/ etc), while in front of a floor fan. IMO the fan made all the difference...


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re: "Hoses laying/rolled/stored in the sun will have VERY hot water in it even after just a few mins. Be sure to let it run till it feels cool before wetting dog's belly."

a BIG ditto on that one ! 
i'm constantly hosing off the deck area near him, and my whole reel is exposed with about 20ft of hose stretched out and the water will burn your hands for a few min ... can't believe how much water i waste and it aint cheap over here :evil::evil:
... considering building an insulated box for the whole dam reel


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

rick smith said:


> re: "Hoses laying/rolled/stored in the sun will have VERY hot water in it even after just a few mins. Be sure to let it run till it feels cool before wetting dog's belly."
> 
> a BIG ditto on that one !
> i'm constantly hosing off the deck area near him, and my whole reel is exposed with about 20ft of hose stretched out and the water will burn your hands for a few min ... can't believe how much water i waste and it aint cheap over here :evil::evil:
> ... considering building an insulated box for the whole dam reel


That would be a big help. Just getting it out of the sun should make a big difference.


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## Ang Cangiano (Mar 2, 2007)

Lynn Cheffins said:


> High heat and humidity makes people more aware of heat injury to dogs but dogs can overheat in fairly cool temperatures given the right combination of conditions (ie lots of sunlight reflecting off of snow, high level of exertion, coat colour of dog and how well hydrated the dog is, etc)


I just wanted to emphasize this point. I don't think a lot of people realize just how easy it is for high drive dogs to overheat, even in cool weather. Years ago I had a sleddog overheat during a race, the temp was around 50f (10c). That dog also overheated at a later date, during a training run, when the temp was only around 30f (-1c).

No matter the air temp keep an eye on your dog while it's working and give it a break if it seems to be panting hard. 

Ang


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## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

Hey Anna...so glad Cyko is okay. Quick thinking on your part, glad you came home when you did. I can relate, having a brother of his, how something like this could happen. I'm still looking for my boys off switch - I've never been able to leave him outside, even in a shaded/misted kennel if I'm not home - for fear of him overheating because of the way his outside = patrolling. Zane does not know when to stop either and I constantly have to monitor him....I've pulled him from training more then a few times...

I hope there are no lingering effects...


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## Gus Kostas (Jun 20, 2012)

Not feeding kibble to a working dog in warm conditions is also something to consider as kibble is completly void of any moisture (among other nutrients), thereby dehydrating the unwitting dog further.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

It's not too bad in Colorado in that we don't have high humidity 
but I appreciate the information about ice packs and/or wet towels on the neck and arm pits. If my dogs life were depending on me shoving ice cubes up his butt? He'd be in REAL trouble.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Gus
i would say dehydrated basically means "void of almost all water"....traditional "kibble" is far from being dehydrated, and one reason why it will rot faster than dehydrated foods


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Gus Kostas said:


> Not feeding kibble to a working dog in warm conditions is also something to consider as kibble is completly void of any moisture (among other nutrients), thereby dehydrating the unwitting dog further.


I soak my kibble in more water than it would have if fully hydrated. My dogs drink very little. I do feed twice a day though to keep the load less on the stomach and feed a lighter morning meal on a hot day.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Christopher Smith said:


> I'm not trying to be funny, but how does the dog react to this?


 
They barley are reacting to anything, knocking on heavens door


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Craig Snyder said:


> Chris, I think what is unique with dogs as opposed to people is the fur. I know that sounds stupidly obvious! :razz:
> 
> Water actually is a great insultator if there is no ability to exchange heat with the air.
> 
> ...


Interesting thoughts, talk more next time we are together. Just have a hard time totally believing that cooler water (even non moving water) does a worse time cooling the dog than evaporation in hot weather? And if its humid out the water may barley evaporate at all, so now all you have is a overheated wet dog. 
When submerged the water becomes warm around the dog because it is heat leaving the dogs body, the cooler water is robbing the heat. So there must be a break point that non moving water of a certain temperature is better than a wet dog in hot air. I just think the temp of the non moving water might actually be pretty high. For example a 105 degree dog in 80 degree non moving water may cool quicker than a wet dog in 75 degree humid air. 
And even non moving water (mechanical or gravity) will still move, the warmer water will rise. A little mechanical movement with even you hand might even make a change. 
 I just think they recommend sponging because it more likely that you can do that than submerge a dog in many situations. The problem with this is it might help in an air-conditioned house but outside in hot humid weather 
A dog with its up to its neck in 70 degree water has got to cool quicker than a dog with its belly in the water and the rest of its body in 90 degree air? 
This is a job for Myth Busters :-D


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re: "This is a job for Myth Busters"
GREAT idea !! 
... they'd probably go for it, but first you gotta come up with the "myth" that has some wild and crazy entertainment factor they could use ???
... i don't think "education" is their primary sponsor draw :-(

think outside the box


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

rick smith said:


> Gus
> i would say dehydrated basically means "void of almost all water"....traditional "kibble" is far from being dehydrated, and one reason why it will rot faster than dehydrated foods


Kibble is less than 10% water, raw meat is 70%. Hopefully there is some real stuff in the kibble, So ya it has been dehydrated to a point. The reduced moisture is a big reason kibble does not rot in a day or two.


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Chris McDonald said:


> Interesting thoughts, talk more next time we are together. Just have a hard time totally believing that cooler water (even non moving water) does a worse time cooling the dog than evaporation in hot weather? And if its humid out the water may barley evaporate at all, so now all you have is a overheated wet dog.
> When submerged the water becomes warm around the dog because it is heat leaving the dogs body, the cooler water is robbing the heat. So there must be a break point that non moving water of a certain temperature is better than a wet dog in hot air. I just think the temp of the non moving water might actually be pretty high. For example a 105 degree dog in 80 degree non moving water may cool quicker than a wet dog in 75 degree humid air.
> And even non moving water (mechanical or gravity) will still move, the warmer water will rise. A little mechanical movement with even you hand might even make a change.
> I just think they recommend sponging because it more likely that you can do that than submerge a dog in many situations. The problem with this is it might help in an air-conditioned house but outside in hot humid weather
> ...





> EVAPORATION
> The most imperative element in decreasing a dog's body temperature is through evaporation. Just getting the dog wet is not enough; the water needs to evaporate. Evaporation cools the body temperature very effectively. As far as crates are concerned wire crates are best as plastic crates restrict air movement therefore restricting evaporation and fresh cool air to the lungs. If you place a wet dog in an enclosed/plastic crate, a sauna-like environment will be produced restricting evaporation. Also make sure you never cover a dog with a wet towel, as it too will restrict evaporation. The safest way to put a dog up after a workout or if the dog is in trouble, is to wet the dog down, put it in a wire crate or a stake out in a shady area, and allow the dog to dry thoroughly before placing it on any enclosed area.
> 
> 
> ...


I would say the plastic crate creating a sauna would probably be equivalent to humid non moving air.... this is why the fan and constant running water on the genitals/ pits worked so well for us. I am convinced our results would have been different w/o the fan to circulate the air.


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

Chris McDonald said:


> Interesting thoughts, talk more next time we are together. Just have a hard time totally believing that cooler water (even non moving water) does a worse time cooling the dog than evaporation in hot weather? And if its humid out the water may barley evaporate at all, so now all you have is a overheated wet dog.
> When submerged the water becomes warm around the dog because it is heat leaving the dogs body, the cooler water is robbing the heat. So there must be a break point that non moving water of a certain temperature is better than a wet dog in hot air. I just think the temp of the non moving water might actually be pretty high. For example a 105 degree dog in 80 degree non moving water may cool quicker than a wet dog in 75 degree humid air.
> And even non moving water (mechanical or gravity) will still move, the warmer water will rise. A little mechanical movement with even you hand might even make a change.
> I just think they recommend sponging because it more likely that you can do that than submerge a dog in many situations. The problem with this is it might help in an air-conditioned house but outside in hot humid weather
> ...


Yes, you definitely have a good question there. I wouldn't avoid immersion if that was my only choice obviously. I think it's better than no water at all. And for an emergency I'd do it. I think though it does point out the need for that mechanical factor, running your hands through the fur to keep he water moving, changing the water out, etc... But I can see where putting up a wet dog on a hot day and under the right conditions could cause problems. 

What it really points out is your dog isn't safe until it's safe! Constant monitoring after any heat related incident is critical. 

It would be a good myth busters problem. I think it would be a hard one to test though without 4-legged help. You'd need a robot dog! 

Maybe some simple experiments with those heat packs could be done. Wrap a couple of them in fur. Insert a meat thermometer between the fur and heat pack. Then immerse one in a pot of water and leave the other in the open air with a fan blowing across it. See which one cools the fastest.

Not perfect but it might work. Would be an interesting paper for a vet student to research and undertake.

Craig


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I didn't go back and re read the whole thread so maybe I missed it. 
Thoughts about wiping the belly down with rubbing alcohol? That's a big help in evaporation.


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

I would think it would be a good idea personally. But might not be that accessible in an emergency. Witch Hazel could work to maybe.

Craig


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Either could be in an emergency dog first aid kit! 
For winter though I would probably prefer a Good Scotch in the kit. :grin: :wink:


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## Ryan Venables (Sep 15, 2010)

Trial we were just at last weekend saw temps on the field of over 107F. One dog went into distress after its R2 routine. We were fortunate enough to have been picking a couple guys brains from Atlanta, who made the 20 hr drive, to ask them what they do in the year round heat. We haw had about a month of very hot weather in Ontario, and I've never really put too much thought into actual emergency situations of a dog until I heard these guys talking about it.

Sure enough on trial day, as I mentioned, a big 85lb Mal essentially collapsed after and had no coordination. It was not as bad as some of the situations described above, but fortunately one of the R3 competitors was a vet and she saved the day. All looks to be okay with this dog.

In addition to the cooling techniques mentioned, does anybody use any kind of supplements pre/post hard working to minimize the effects of heat on your dog? The vet at the trial mentioned giving calcium, and she had a rub of GoDog

Cheers


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

Bob Scott said:


> Either could be in an emergency dog first aid kit!
> For winter though I would probably prefer a Good Scotch in the kit. :grin: :wink:


Just winter? :-k

Craig


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Craig Snyder said:


> Just winter? :-k
> 
> Craig



Of course. Vodka or gin in summer. 

It's like white shoes for summer. :lol:


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Of course. Vodka or gin in summer.
> 
> It's like white shoes for summer. :lol:


I like your thinking. 

Craig


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Ryan Venables said:


> In addition to the cooling techniques mentioned, does anybody use any kind of supplements pre/post hard working to minimize the effects of heat on your dog? The vet at the trial mentioned giving calcium, and she had a rub of GoDog


I've tried various supplements, and haven't really found that they did anything IMO. I didn't notice any changes in my dogs performance. On the flip side, I've talked to many people who swear by the supplements so ??? I do wonder if things like GoDog are helping because of the ingredients, or because they taste good and therefore the dog is willing to drink more water and stay better hydrated. My dogs are good about drinking, but also understand "drink" as an obedience command, so I can get them to drink even if they don't really want to at that moment.

Something else to keep in mind is the air temp may be 100+, the ground temp may be MUCH higher. Especially if on dirt or thin grass, on a 100 degree day the ground can easily be 120+. At one FR trial in Riverside CA the ground temp was registered at over 130 by one of those laser temperature readers out in the parking lot. The registered temp for the day was 104.

I try to hydrate my dogs well before a trial, starting the day before by adding some extra water to their food, and then keeping a steady supply of water available to them on trial day. During the trial itself I will ask for water to put on their bellies, inner thigh and foot pads only, plus give them a drink. But the other thing I do is just slow down. Give the dog a little more pause between exercises to recoupe, I also try to make sure any time we are stopped for some reason, like the judge is writing something down, or a decoy change, my dog is sitting or standing in shade created by me. I position myself so my dog is in my shadow. It's little things, but it can help add up to the dog getting through the routine better.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

_" .... ice water .... I'll tuck that tidbit somewhere in the gray matter now and hope I never have to use it.

Craig"_


I hope the link and posts provided about ice didn't get lost ..... 



Connie Sutherland said:


> Applied ice shrinks blood vessels near the surface of whatever part(s) you are icing, actually potentially delaying cooling.
> 
> 
> ETA
> ...





Maren Bell Jones said:


> Sorry to hear about your boy. I hope he makes a full recovery. .... However, ice and ice water are actually not recommended as a treatment. Cool water is the way to go. This article explains why:
> 
> http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&S=0&C=0&A=366 ..... *


And 
_
"One of the keys is not to cool the dog much beyond about 102.5-103 F because they will experience what's called rebound hypothermia and their body temperature will actually drop dangerously low after the cooling."_




* QUOTE: _What NOT to Do

Rapidly cooling the pet is extremely important. While ice or cold water may seem logical, its use is not advised. Cooling the innermost structures of the body will actually be delayed, as ice or cold water will cause superficial blood vessels to shrink, effectively forming an insulating layer of tissue to hold the heat inside. Tap water is more suitable for effective cooling._


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

And just to point out, that talks about ice EXTERNALY. Natural body response is to conserve heat (which apparently still works the same in severe overheating?), and dogs are already well insulated fur/skin/fat to withstand below freezing temps... Not arguing about that at all...

Also I've now been told that cooling too rapidly could cause kidney damage, any comment on that? I can't seem to find any data to support or deny this?

I will take him in for bloodwork to check organ function in a week or so, be a minor miracle if there isn't any damage. I'm thinking there's got to be SOMETHING considering how bad he was. He seems to be recovering well though.:smile:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Anna Kasho said:


> And just to point out, that talks about ice EXTERNALY. Natural body response is to conserve heat (which apparently still works the same in severe overheating?), and dogs are already well insulated fur/skin/fat to withstand below freezing temps...


You're right.

I'll look for better ice info .... recent research rather than vet-site instructions that mostly date back to the 1990s.

Everything I have confirms the "no ice" thing, but none of it cites anything recent.

Making a sticky note!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Anna Kasho said:


> ... Also I've now been told that cooling too rapidly could cause kidney damage, any comment on that? I can't seem to find any data to support or deny this?


Same thing ..... I have a zillion citations on this, but nothing post-1999 and nothing directly linked to studies.

Two post-it notes.


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Same thing ..... I have a zillion citations on this, but nothing post-1999 and nothing directly linked to studies.
> 
> Two post-it notes.


If you find something definitive, please let me know! Going through lists of published studies and I have NEVER seen this mentioned anywhere before, everything I've read is to the effect of "initiate rapid cooling" etc, "fastest rates of cooling by this and this method" etc. Just thinking I may have screwed up after all...#-o

ETA, most studies done on dogs didn't keep their dogs alive for very long afterwards - maybe explains why they don't list longterm consequences...


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

Connie Sutherland said:


> _" .... ice water .... I'll tuck that tidbit somewhere in the gray matter now and hope I never have to use it.
> Craig"_
> 
> I hope the link and posts provided about ice didn't get lost .....
> ...


My thought is that the enema might be a good rapid cooling in an extreme emergency. I don't know if I would really use ice water after reading some more on this. But a cooler temperature of maybe 65 -70? I think what is critical though is the monitoring of the temp and to stop cooling efforts around 103-104 if the temp is going down.

I have heard of using cold saline IV's on people to bring down core temperature as well as using gastric lavage. I don't think an enema is all that different then this.

Still sounds like it comes back to getting the temp down quickly into a survivable range and than monitoring as natural cooling takes place. Like rapid cooling to 105-106? Followed by slow, regular, monitored natural cooling to 102?

Craig


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Anna Kasho said:


> If you find something definitive, please let me know! (


Absolutely. 

A thread like this one can help someone save their dog's life.


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## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

Ryan Venables said:


> In addition to the cooling techniques mentioned, does anybody use any kind of supplements pre/post hard working to minimize the effects of heat on your dog? The vet at the trial mentioned giving calcium, and she had a rub of GoDog
> 
> Cheers


No recommendation as to supplements pre or post but having the dog really well hydrated before I think helps as well hydrated dogs deal with heat better. In addition to regular water intake offering baited water at intervals before (and after) exercise is an option. 

I'd also like to dispell the myth that you can't give a hot dog water - I see some people actually withholding water from their dogs ''until they cool down'' when actually drinking water if an effective method for the dog to cool itself - dogs will self regulate and you can see them come back from a run stand their and pant for about 30 seconds and then dive their head in the bowl or bucket - some of my dogs will just champ the water a bit at first and kind of squish the water through their mouths without drinking it I think just to get the cooling effect. Dogs aren't horses and the worse that will happen if they drink water when hot is barf it up.
I use baited water before exercise and generally plain water after.

I also see people mix up exertion panting with ''way too hot and ready to boil over panting'' when it looks like a pipe and seems like you can see right down thier throats you need to start cooling the dog down right away.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Catching up on this great thread hope it gets sticky'ed up on front page. Seeing lots of first aid but not much handler prevention early signs etc but only skimmed. 

Would a free ranged dog learn better self management, i know hunting dogs in kennels are more susceptible even tho they get better routine fitness training than free range dogs that get no forced fitness.

I think dogs can learn to shut down at the right time to avoid heat stroke??


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Lynn Cheffins said:


> I'd also like to dispell the myth that you can't give a hot dog water - I see some people actually withholding water from their dogs ''until they cool down'' when actually drinking water if an effective method for the dog to cool itself - dogs will self regulate and you can see them come back from a run stand their and pant for about 30 seconds and then dive their head in the bowl or bucket - some of my dogs will just champ the water a bit at first and kind of squish the water through their mouths without drinking it I think just to get the cooling effect. Dogs aren't horses and the worse that will happen if they drink water when hot is barf it up.
> I use baited water before exercise and generally plain water after.
> 
> I also see people mix up exertion panting with ''way too hot and ready to boil over panting'' when it looks like a pipe and seems like you can see right down thier throats you need to start cooling the dog down right away.


I've known two working dog people personally who have either lost a dog or nearly lost a dog from GDV, presumably from drinking water too fast while they are hot, so I am fairly cautious. I just like giving them just enough (about 10 laps worth) to get their mouths wet and then walk them out to not have them pant so hard, then they can have some more.

The other issue is for running something like the 20 km AD, which would be more analogous to sled dog racing, I don't feel most of the dogs get quite as hot as the more anaerobic explosive stuff like bitework. Like my dog will sometimes be blowing pretty hard after 5-10 minutes of bitework or dock diving, but when he finished his AD, he was barely panting.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Catching up on this great thread hope it gets sticky'ed up on front page. Seeing lots of first aid but not much handler prevention early signs etc but only skimmed.
> 
> Would a free ranged dog learn better self management, i know hunting dogs in kennels are more susceptible even tho they get better routine fitness training than free range dogs that get no forced fitness.
> 
> I think dogs can learn to shut down at the right time to avoid heat stroke??


I don't think you own a Malinois.


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## mel boschwitz (Apr 23, 2010)

Interesting thought Peter, that some dogs would self regulate. That is peobably true of pet dog variety (my pets wont do much in the heat), but the OCD working dogs? My female hound is so dedicated to scent she will sometimes refuse breaks/water in pursuit of the trail. She lives outside, used to the heat. In her 1000 sq foot pen she will rest in the heat of the day. But once I put her on a trail, all bets are off. Its up to me to force her to stop and wait. I wish she would at least learn to willingly take a break! I am sure there are other working dogs that share her attitude.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

I dont own a mal but i think that and ocd dog arguments may not be entirely true, our conditions/environment here are extreme. Kelpies can be as chronic high activity workers as you get. 14 hour days both gathering and moving stock long distances in appaling conditions, they will move from tree shade to tree shade or walk in shadow of horse to get some relief. More miles, more calories, more running, jumping....etc than any sport venue and out of handler control.

My curr line will just stop in a hunt and cool themselves then rejoin the work, i think self régulation COULD be a learned behaviour in independent problem solving breeds raised free range.

The my dogs so high drive bs is jerking yrself off and killing/harming dogs.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Okay, so you say that's ego stroking, but then you go on about how extreme your conditions are? Okay...well, my entire state is designated a disaster area due lack of rainfall (barely 3 cm in the last month) and the average high temperature for the last month has been about 37-38 C. This is the first day in over a month it's been less than 31 C at this time of the day. Then tomorrow it'll be back up to about 38 again. Ugh, it sucks trying to train in this.

Ask anybody with an even moderately high drive Mal and they are typically pretty poor self regulators, especially when they are younger. If you just expect an average high drive Malinois to self regulate, you could end up with a dead dog.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Im stating every day mundane facts about an application of working dogs and raised a question about self regulation as a possible learned behaviour, project, twist and mince how you want.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> .... The my dogs so high drive bs is jerking yrself off and killing/harming dogs.



I see your post here as about 50% counterproductive to a serious thread.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Yr opinion or a mod directive to a member trying genuinely to understand the causes and possible prevention of heatstroke, thread title was heatstroke not 'heatstroke first aid' which would preclude any wider debate.

the high drive argument just shuts down the scope of the discussion like heatstroke is an inevitable thing which its not.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> the high drive argument just shuts down the scope of the discussion like heatstroke is an inevitable thing which its not.


And you apparently don't have one of these non-self regulating dogs like some of us have, so you wouldn't know, would you?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

_
"The my dogs so high drive bs is jerking yrself off and killing/harming dogs"_

was not "a member trying genuinely to understand the causes and possible prevention of heatstroke."

I'm not kidding. Phrase your posts as real discussion or don't post to the thread.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

From the link on page one here, http://www.WorkingDogForum.com/vBul...p-your-dogs-cool-15676/index5.html#post343376

QUOTE: *The best method of treatment is prevention.* Learn to watch your dog, and see the changes in the size of the tongue, and how quickly it goes down. Learn your dogs response to the different environments, and be careful when you head south for an early season hunt test or trial. I have been to Nashville at the end of May, only 5 hours away, but the difference in temp and humidity did effect the dogs as they were used to more spring weather in Ohio. Try different things in training to help the dog cool and learn what works better. 

Another very important point=> Do not swim your hot dog to cool it then put in put in a box/ tight crate. Remember, evaporation can not take place in a tight space, and the box will turn into a sauna and you will cook your dog.

Carry a stake out chain, and let the dog cool and dry before putting it up. I demonstrated this lesson this spring with my 10 month old pup. After doing a 15 minute session in yard drill on a warm 70+ degree day, she was panting pretty hard and was pretty hot. She was OK but it was time to stop. Just for the heck of it I took her temp. She was 103.6, above normal but too bad for a dog that had just finished working. In my back yard I have a 300 gallon Rubbermaid tub filled with water. I took her to it and she jumped in and out 3-4 times. She appeared totally improved, tongue was much smaller, and eyes brighter and her full spring was back into her step. So I re-took her temp and it was 104.2, so even though she looked better she was hotter. This is a perfect lesson to show not get a hot dog wet and then put them in a box. The water on her skin caused the blood vessels to constrict, decreasing blood flow to the skin. Therefore the hot blood was shunted back to the dog's core and retained the heat. You may have felt the same thing, after exercising but still being very warm, take a shower and get cooled off but as soon as you turn the shower off you start sweating again. .... Remember: *Prevention, learn your dog. It is worth the time and effort.*


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Conditioning and self-regulation training ..... 


We've had some good threads on conditioning. Maybe the members who contributed to those threads will do so here.


What Maren said about younger drivey dogs .... yes. It has seemed to me that adolescents in particular sometimes lack what I guess you'd call a self-preservation thing. 

Surely a topic like this can be discussed without flaming.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Remember the difference between a Malinois and a German shepherd in self preservation is that if you toss a ball off a cliff, the average GSD would skid to a stop and maybe reconsider. The average Mal would just go "wheee...."

But not always. One of the dogs I mentioned earlier about dying due to GDV presumably due to the heat and water consumption was a GSD.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I don't think you own a Malinois.


Please read pm, cant post on thread.








Connie Sutherland said:


> Phrase your posts as real discussion or don't post to the thread.


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Remember the difference between a Malinois and a German shepherd in self preservation is that if you toss a ball off a cliff, the average GSD would skid to a stop and maybe reconsider. The average Mal would just go "wheee...."
> 
> But not always. One of the dogs I mentioned earlier about dying due to GDV presumably due to the heat and water consumption was a GSD.


Maren, even my two mals, working the same problem in same conditions heat up differently. One works herself up, the other just trots around.methodically.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Would a free ranged dog learn better self management, i know hunting dogs in kennels are more susceptible even tho they get better routine fitness training than free range dogs that get no forced fitness.


I suspect it's far more complex than that. But if left alone and for arguments sake if we're just on the subject of dogs raised up without the boundaries of urban life, what you suggest certainly that seems likely. But that's not reality for most people. Besides, I speculate there's a genetic component to thermoregulation. Not just behaviorally related, but one that's got a much deeper physical relationship. Kinda like some people who run hot vs those who run cold, if we want to keep it basic.

Honestly, and I remember having this conversation with Jeff O before its something I would select away from (heat intolerance, that is, if I were to describe this matter loosely). Certainly, there's going to be circumstances under which basically the dog is mistakenly subjected to an environment that makes it ripe for such an event but that isn't what I am talking about when I suggest selecting away from "it".


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Yes, I know there's obviously going to be individual variation. But I have heard from people who have owned and worked more Mals than me (two purebreds, two crossbreds) that while they do have shorter coats than most GSDs, they have less of a likelihood to know when to quit especially when they are young, so you have to watch them more carefully.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

julie allen said:


> Maren, even my two mals, working the same problem in same conditions heat up differently. One works herself up, the other just trots around.methodically.



Do you see maturity as a factor in whether a drivey dog can/will self-regulate (meaning their continued activity, not their internal temp regulating mechanisms)?


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## mel boschwitz (Apr 23, 2010)

Peter, just because my ocd high drive female wont self regulate doesnt mean I wont make her. Its a struggle tho. She's never overheated in the daily 100+ degree Texas heat we live and work on, because I am careful. Not because she is. (She's not a Mal by the way).

My other working hound WILL self regulate. He wont stop unless I tell him to, and he works where the scent is ( which typically drifts to shade so bonus there), but if I stop him for water he will drink, and if we work near a water source he WILL take a break there. 

BUT, my female is the better working dog. I just have to really watch her in this heat ( only 3 months left, yeah!)


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## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

Level of conditioning and body condition does come into play - but some dogs just don't self regulate and it is up to the handler to monitor the dog. It's easier for the handler to notice if you are doing moderate speed stuff where you can really see differences in the dogs gait and behaviour more easily but in instances where the dog is at peak or close to peak exhertion it is harder to see. Yearlings are pretty notorious for going all out and not having any ability to pace themsleves and some dogs just don't have that ability at any age.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Complex causes, i know our viet soldiers all had to swelter in tropics before deployment same desert fighting, the dingo was definately added to acd and kelpie but kept out of written peds to add 'secret' genetic component of heat tolerance.

Great thread and important content. How many peoples actually shove a thermometer up a dogs butt during training or just monitor visuals?? 

Polar wireless technology may be an option, endurance horse riders use it.


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Do you see maturity as a factor in whether a drivey dog can/will self-regulate (meaning their continued activity, not their internal temp regulating mechanisms)?


Not so much. In fact it almost seems lime the young pups will quit before the adult drivey ones will. In this deal, just the way the two dogs work differ. The others I have will all stop to cool off before over heating, or at least attempt to. 
As Maren said, some just go above and beyond. The younger female of mine at 1 yr, is just more controlled, even though having about the same drive as the 2 year old. The older of the two, bounces around, runs, etc, and gets hotter faster. Yet the latter one seems to have more self preservation, and is less likely to jump over the cliff yelling whee lol, than the pup. Probably more common sense, the younger is nick named dip shit for a reason lol.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

If i may say so some training discussions get short changed on the topic of drive. if a 15minute trial is the point of your dogs existence then hyperdrive zero self preservation is prolly a virtue.

A less bouncy dog that is still working after 10 hours without sloughing its intestines is also a virtue in some venues.

I compare it to the old school sch guys who say how tough their dogs were, where they prolly mean the dogs were immune to hard corrections and crude training methods, and not much else.


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> If i may say so some training discussions get short changed on the topic of drive. if a 15minute trial is the point of your dogs existence then hyperdrive zero self preservation is prolly a virtue.
> 
> A less bouncy dog that is still working after 10 hours without sloughing its intestines is also a virtue in some venues.
> 
> I compare it to the old school sch guys who say how tough their dogs were, where they prolly mean the dogs were immune to hard corrections and crude training methods, and not much else.


True. We worked 8 hours two weeks ago, it was 104. Short spot checks, lots of water breaks, and cooling times. I really was hoping Greta would wear out, but she kept right on bouncing haha. Usually we wait until night to work in these conditions, but the SO really wanted it done then.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

SO?? 



addedSentencetomeet10Wordmintequirement


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> SO??
> 
> Lol,.SO-- a less bouncy dog would be a virtue there.
> 
> addedSentencetomeet10Wordmintequirement


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

There are many factors involved from physical attributes to mental. Not all dogs work at the same intensities either and not all venues/ activities are created equal. Just like two people can do aerobics one going through the motions one pushing their limits... Same movements but Guess which one will heat up faster... all physical attributes being equal. Not quitting when over heating.... It's not a breed thing... Unless you want to compare Mals and bullbreeds some how? 

Overheating, It's a physical, mental and or intensity thing... Just know your dog and take precautions. 

I dunk my dogs if its possible after training, then a hose down undersides, small water from hose to cool the mouth more than drink, then walk out until dry enough to put up... Or put up in ac if real bad. So far so good. Works for me and my bulldogs when training on hot Florida summer days.


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## Michael McClure (Feb 20, 2011)

What temp. is to hot ? .... I'm keepin mine in my garage for now til it gets to hot.


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## John Squire (Jul 18, 2011)

Has anyone had experience with the various products designed to help dogs stay cool? I've seen vests that you soak in water, and the evaporative action is supposed to have a cooling effect on the dog. The folks that sell these say they are very effective. Also, today I bought my dog a similar product called "KoolCollar." It's a collar with re-freezable gel ice packs in it, and you can also just put ice cubes out of the fridge in it. I guess the water from the cooling ice drips on the dog's chest, and, again, evaporation becomes the main cooling mechanism. I'll be the first to admit that I'm a little skeptical of these products, but the collar was less than $20. Figured I didn't have much to lose. Anyone have experience with this stuff? I imagine the cooling vests could easily be worn during training and even during bitework.


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