# Today's GSD



## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

I read an article or post somewhere by an old hand in the GSD world where he stated that today's GSD cannot handle the demands of the schutzhund obedience routine without the constant rewards/stimulation that are so common now when training obedience. The quest for points and for the picture of a happy worker has changed the breed ( and the test ) so that the dogs are almost working the way like some retriever breeds work ( my opinion ). The Malinois I work can stay in drive with an occasional release, maybe once a session. I plan on working my GSD pup much the same way, or at least try.
Opinions? No worries, I can take the flaming that may stem from this post.


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## Dwyras Brown (Nov 21, 2008)

In the words of THE Torch from the Fantastic Four "Flame on!"


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

Robin Van Hecke said:


> I read an article or post somewhere by an old hand in the GSD world where he stated that today's GSD cannot handle the demands of the schutzhund obedience routine without the constant rewards/stimulation that are so common now when training obedience. The quest for points and for the picture of a happy worker has changed the breed ( and the test ) so that the dogs are almost working the way like some retriever breeds work ( my opinion ). The Malinois I work can stay in drive with an occasional release, maybe once a session. I plan on working my GSD pup much the same way, or at least try.
> Opinions? No worries, I can take the flaming that may stem from this post.


 
Eh, rubbish


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

Brian McQuain said:


> Eh, rubbish


Good stuff.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Robin,

I had a handler hard [no handler aggression] GSD bitch that was high drive. She heeled like a golden retriever and lived to do it just for praise. I used to say she would heel 50 miles. Her mother was similar. They both had that human like GSD intelligence. She would also retrieve anything 24/7. Back then, I was old school and didn't train with food. I think I've seen several "genetic obedience" discussions. Its a willing to please without being the least bit handler sensitive--maybe pack drive would be a better description. 


Terrasita


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

to paraphrase about a million other threads;

"yump, people and dogs these days just aint like they used to".


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Well, I don't think GSDs should be compared to or become malinois.

T


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Robin,
> 
> I had a handler hard [no handler aggression] GSD bitch that was high drive. She heeled like a golden retriever and lived to do it just for praise. I used to say she would heel 50 miles. Her mother was similar. They both had that human like GSD intelligence. She would also retrieve anything 24/7. Back then, I was old school and didn't train with food. I think I've seen several "genetic obedience" discussions. Its a willing to please without being the least bit handler sensitive--maybe pack drive would be a better description.
> 
> ...


Hi there,

Were you also involved in any sort of bite sport with her? 

What I hope for is compliance and willingness and ability to take fair compulsion 
while staying high in drive and show spirit and fight drive to the helper. Not as I often see on the training field where so much obedience for the tug or ball translates into barking at the sleeve in protection rather than at the helper. 
The barking in the schutzhund sport is so over emphasized now that it,s the first thing many teach and it' mostly done with tug or ball as is most of the obedience routine. Myself, I want to see what the dog brings to the helper naturally.

Clear as mud?


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Well, I don't think GSDs should be compared to or become malinois.
> 
> T


Difficult because I have both, but I am starting to appreciate the GSD being somewhat less reactive than the Malinois, maybe it's my advancing years


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Robin Van Hecke said:


> Hi there,
> 
> Were you also involved in any sort of bite sport with her?
> 
> ...


She was tested at a year old. The comment from the helper was that she was hard and she meant it--it wasn't a game. They believed in training males--considered bitches too serious---or so I was told. She was highly social--loved kids, etc. She was serious. A stupid move towards me and you would see it. Otherwise, she was even friendly. She would take any corrections, from me. As we found out, she didn't take them from anyone else--TD. I can't imagine losing drive with a correction with her. I lost her to cancer in 1997. This is actually the type of dog I'm looking for. The thing is when you have this type of pack drive, corrections don't really come into play that often. Our male bouv was similar. Even the night the bite collar came off and he went for the helper, platz stopped him. Same thing when he went head on through the chain link fence--platz downed him on the other side. Same hardness to correction but once you got his respect, he would do ANYTHING my husband asked of him. Its not compliance based on training really or avoidance of correction. Neither of these dogs were trained with food or toy reward. All verbal praise and based on leadership. The bouv [Thor] was always correct in obedience but he didn't look flashy like Ingrid. But he wasn't as drivey, except with the bitework. In drive he felt nothing. 

Terrasita


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re: 
"I read an article or post somewhere by an old hand in the GSD world"
??????? "somewhere" ?? "old hand" ?? no quotes, no excerpts ??????? what are we discussing here ?

- why not just provide the link or the post so we can give an opinion of what was said rather than your summary of what you think it said


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

rick smith said:


> re:
> "I read an article or post somewhere by an old hand in the GSD world"
> ??????? "somewhere" ?? "old hand" ?? no quotes, no excerpts ??????? what are we discussing here ?
> 
> - why not just provide the link or the post so we can give an opinion of what was said rather than your summary of what you think it said


 
I saw the same reference but don't know if it was discussed here or elsewhere. It had to do with selection for amped prey drive and training with toys and reward. I've also seen references to dogs with tons of prey drive which is great for sport but no territoriality or instinctive guard. Are we losing this in GSDs at the expense of more is better prey drive?


Terrasita


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

The quality of dogs today is higher than it was in the past. You just need to know where to go look, buy.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Faisal Khan said:


> The quality of dogs today is higher than it was in the past. You just need to know where to go look, buy.


True that Faisal... in fact the whole reason for breeding is to improve, maintain and move forward with the progression of the dogs right? To say the dogs are not as good as they were is a stab in the eye of every serious breeder out there. There may be a perception of a lot of shitty dogs because there are a lot of shitty dogs lol. But there is always somebody out there making really nice dogs and getting them into the hands of good trainers. I don't buy into the "those good ole dogs from the good ole days" stuff when your talking about working dogs. That may be closer to the truth if your talking about the molloser group.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Look at some of the old video from the 30s, etc. I think it's hard to tell if the crappy looking dogs are really crappy or the training has advanced so much. No doubt a bit of both.
The more modern video of some of the past "great" dogs don't impress me any more then some of todays dogs.
Select the right dog and train it well!
Still doesn't mean it will pass on what makes it a good dog though. That's intelligent breeding, selecting, training and a bit of luck.


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> to paraphrase about a million other threads;
> 
> "yump, people and dogs these days just aint like they used to".


Especially the people:-({|=


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