# Choking a dog off a bite when it knows the out command



## Kristen Cabe

Just wondering if the more experienced people on this board could enlighten me as to when it would be (or not) appropriate to choke a dog off a bite when it will out on command. It doesn't make sense to me and doesn't seem fair to the dog.


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## Mike Scheiber

Kristen Cabe said:


> Just wondering if the more experienced people on this board could enlighten me as to when it would be (or not) appropriate to choke a dog off a bite when it will out on command. It doesn't make sense to me and doesn't seem fair to the dog.


Only if it has a kid by the head a bullet would also be appropriate


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## todd pavlus

I think this is a common tactic in training police dogs, I have an idea why the police use this method, but maybe some of the Police k9 handlers can shed some light.


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## Lou Castle

Kristen Cabe said:


> Just wondering if the more experienced people on this board could enlighten me as to when it would be (or not) appropriate to choke a dog off a bite when it will out on command. It doesn't make sense to me and doesn't seem fair to the dog.


It depends on what you mean by "choking the dog off the bite." When I do this I use the dog's buckle collar to life his front legs off the ground and press him in, towards the bite. There's no "choking" involved. 

I've seen some people use the choke chain to pull back away or to life the dog away from the decoy so that the dog's air is cut off and he "chokes." 

In both cases they'll release the bite but I don't care for the latter. 

I sometimes do the former when I want the dog to stay focused on the decoy and to frustrate him a bit.


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## Kristen Cabe

What I mean by 'choking the dog off the bite' is lifting the dog's front feet off the ground by the collar until he spits out the sleeve, and in a training situation, for sport.


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## Lou Castle

Kristen Cabe said:


> What I mean by 'choking the dog off the bite' is lifting the dog's front feet off the ground by the collar until he spits out the sleeve, and in a training situation, for sport.


Kristen there are several different situations that I alluded to in my first response. One is the type of collar and the other is pulling away from, or pushing into the bite. 

I don't care for doing this with the choke chain because of its effect of cutting off the dog's air. I don't like pulling away from the bite because it has the tendency of "setting the bite." 

But then I'm working with police dogs and you're asking about sport work.


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## James Downey

I have seen variations of what your talking about. I do this with a wide flat collar or harness, or grab the dog under the chest and hold them up. I do not want to choke the dog. I will just sit there till the dog lets go. I do this to keep a dogs drive up....I also do not want to use the out command for everytime I want the sleeve back. I see people do this and they start to get out problems. My dog is possesive for the sleeve...she will not bite. But if she starts pair outing with losing her toy...I am going to have serious problems with outs. With holding the dog up, I also notice people who out everytime they lose something in the dog. The dog starts to go flat right after the outs. Also holding the dog up allows the decoy to tease them a bit, and fustrate the dog like Lou mentioned. 

I also noticed point out a good point in another post about training being somewhat stressful, even without any pressure from correction. So if I am working on something I want the dog to totally be focused on what they are learning, start adding in outs, and now we are adding another thing for the dog to think about. 

By no means am I great trainer. But I learned this from other people whom are good.


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## Lyn Chen

Always thought choking was done so the dog spits the sleeve but wants it even more. Kind of like flanking. The dog lets go and is even angrier for being made to do so. But if you're doing it to actually reinforce 'out' as the command, yeah, kind of makes no sense.


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## Lisa Maze

Lyn Chen said:


> Always thought choking was done so the dog spits the sleeve but wants it even more. Kind of like flanking. The dog lets go and is even angrier for being made to do so. But if you're doing it to actually reinforce 'out' as the command, yeah, kind of makes no sense.


Some do seem to think that choking the dog off the bite or flanking it off the ball creates more drive for the object/activity. I have only noticed this with any prevelance in law enforcement/MWD applications.

Now I can see a police dog handler practicing taking his dog off of the bite for tactical reasons. It is probably good that the dog be familiar with this for the moment in time where the fight is so intense he does not "obey" the out command or where he is biting near the head and taking him off the bite is safer than outing him and risking a rebite near the face.

The few times I have seen "sport" people do this I got the feeling they were just doing it to make their dog look tougher!

Lisa


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## Howard Gaines III

Kristen Cabe said:


> Just wondering if the more experienced people on this board could enlighten me as to when it would be (or not) appropriate to choke a dog off a bite when it will out on command. It doesn't make sense to me and doesn't seem fair to the dog.


Some K-9 handlers do this, others do not. I am not in favor of it for one BIG reason, *conflict.* I feel that you create a battle between the dog and the decoy, now you have a battle with the handler as well. Choke offs might be great as a last measure if you couldn't out the dog on your training decoy or TD. It is a dumb move from my way of thinking. Find new triggers to work the out command and give faster rebites. The dog doesn't want to lose what it has worked to get! :-k


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## Lee H Sternberg

When I was having a problem "outing" my dog my trainer used a prong collar and a leash on the dog. He held the leash attached to the pinch collar. I had the leash attached to the agitation collar. He stood to the side rear of my dog.

If the dog didn't out immediately the trainer would pop him with the pinch collar.

It took 2 training sessions to get consistent immediate "outs" every time.

I never saw this method used before my trainer did it. The only negative I see is it takes a extra person. There may be other negatives to this method but it worked great with my dog.


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## Howard Gaines III

Lee another spin to this technique is to run the line through the decoys legs and to the rear. Give the lead to another person and command out. If the dog doesn't out, it is popped and the drive motion pushes the head into the sleeve, counter to trying to pull it out. It works for some dogs.


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## Howard Knauf

I've tried every technique so far so stated here. The pinch does work but it's pure compulsion. I've moved away from that technique. Choking the dog off creates conflict as Howard stated, and it also creates handler avoidance, something I absolutely hate to see in any dog especially a patrol dog. To continue down that route can only make things worse.

If the dog already has a solid out then there is no reason at all to choke them off. I am a fan of Lou's idea that it is OK to build drive and desire to fight by lifting the dog and making him work a little harder to stay on the bite. Another reason I like this is because you are helping your partner beat the bad guy and this builds the bond and maintains the trust between the team. If the dog has a solid out, lift..bring up the intensity..beat the bad guy as a team..download, then verbal out with high praise.

In an emergency situation you do what you have to do. If his out is solid then grab the collar and command the out. If no out comes, take him off strong. Once or twice in a dogs career won't hurt him. Tactically speaking...a lot of handlers take the dog off strong in a real bite situation. IMO handlers have to do this because they are in a hurry when in fact they have all the time they need. One should never be in a hurry when securing bad guys. By the time he is secured, the dog should have de-escalated enough for a verbal out with maybe a little physical coaching from the handler on really tough dogs.


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## Lou Castle

Lisa Maze said:


> Some do seem to think that choking the dog off the bite or flanking it off the ball creates more drive for the object/activity. I have only noticed this with any prevelance in law enforcement/MWD applications.


Lisa do you mean that you've only seen this done in LE/MWD applications or that you've only seen this theory of what's going on in those applications? 



Lisa Maze said:


> Now I can see a police dog handler practicing taking his dog off of the bite for tactical reasons.


I may be the Lone Ranger on this but I don't think it's "tactical" for a handler to leave a position of cover/concealment, approach a crook that his dog is biting while he's holding his gun in one hand and grabbing the dog's collar with the other. (I've seen this on TV done with the leash in one hand and a flashlight in the other)! I think that the "tactical" way to do this would be to stay behind cover/concealment and call the dog off the bite with a verbal command. 

Doing it the first way exposes the handler to the crook and that's NOT using good tactics. If you're working with a SWAT team or some other team that is highly trained and used to working together and with the handler, it's safer but STILL I don't think it's wise to leave a position of relative safety to take the dog off the bite. 



Lisa Maze said:


> It is probably good that the dog be familiar with this for the moment in time where the fight is so intense he does not "obey" the out command or where he is biting near the head and taking him off the bite is safer than outing him and risking a rebite near the face.


I think that if the dog has been properly trained he'll release no matter how intense the fight is. If one trains for these very intense situations, when they arise, the dog will still obey the out command. 

I'm reminded of a class I was giving where everyone told me that their dog outed on a verbal command. I then asked if everyone could out their dog in the middle of a fight? Their response was that "it was different." I don't think it is. If your dog is sniffing a bush and you recall him is it OK if he ignores your command? If he's chasing a cat and you call him is it OK if he continues the chase? I don't think so. The out command is a _ command_ like any other. Obedience is not optional. 

It's not hard to get compliance, no matter the intensity of the fight, if you use the right methods.


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## Lou Castle

Howard Gaines III said:


> Some K-9 handlers do this, others do not. I am not in favor of it for one BIG reason, *conflict.* I feel that you create a battle between the dog and the decoy, now you have a battle with the handler as well.


GREAT POINT Howard. Thanks for reminding me to mention how I avoid this conflict. During training when the handler approaches the fight he encourages the dog both verbally and by taking part in the fight. He makes sure that the dog sees him "helping." Then while still giving encouragement, often repeating the bite command, he takes the dog's collar by moving his hand in from behind the dog. He raises the dog's front feet off the ground and applies pressure towards the bite. He continues to encourage the dog and repeat the bite command. I don't have him give the release command during this. 

When the dog releases the bite, the decoy quickly moves away and then either agitates or runs away, giving the dog the win. The entire time the handler is encouraging the dog and giving the bite command but he's still restraining the dog by the collar. The dog's attention stays focused on the decoy, never switching to the handler. 

I don't think the dog feels any conflict doing it this way. The only evidence I have is that I've never had a handler bitten by his own dog or even had the dog shift his focus off the decoy. They remain "on the same team."


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## Howard Gaines III

Howard Knauf said:


> ... One should never be in a hurry when securing bad guys. By the time he is secured, the dog should have de-escalated enough for a verbal out with maybe a little physical coaching from the handler on really tough dogs.


Howard I think this is an excellent point. The dog needs time to come down from the *rush* just as the officer does.


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## Howard Gaines III

Lou your points are well made. The more we write, the more we remember! Thanks!!!=D>


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## Kristen Cabe

Lou, just to clarify, I'm not talking about pulling the dog back and away, and I'm not talking about choking the dog off the_ man_. If the dog is slow to out off the helper, he corrects it using the leash-attached-to-prong-run-underneath-sleeve method.

Here's the situation I was specifically asking about:

Dog is being worked on the back tie. Confidence building and a little bit of introduction to the B&H, since dog takes little 'cheap shot' bites and nips if sleeve is within reach. Dog is rewarded with a bite for sitting and barking. After a short carry & drive, helper slips the sleeve & handler cradles dog. Handler is then instructed to lift dog straight up until front feet are off the ground (by agitation collar, not choke/prong), and to command 'out' when dog spits out the sleeve and kick sleeve back towards helper. 

When handler voiced concern over, and was reluctant to do this, helper said dog was tired b/c it had been biting awhile, and would not want to out if commanded, and he wanted to 'clean the out up' some. Handler reluctantly did as told for the remainder of the session. Dog would not out after carrying sleeve off field and had to be choked off at car.

Dog knows out and does it just fine, sitting nicely in front afterwards, when playing tug w/handler, but has not quite figured out that the same rules apply to helper/sleeve. As mentioned earlier, dog sits, but tries to elicit movement in the helper by nudging & nipping at sleeve. Dog did this w/tug at first, too, but that behavior was ignored and only sitting nicely in front was rewarded. Took only a few repetitions & dog was outing clean off tug and sitting in front of handler.


Remember, I'm talking SchH here, not real life. :wink:


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## tracey schneider

What your saying isn’t making a lot of sense to me…..seems like parts are missing.

_Dog is being worked on the back tie. Confidence building and a little bit of introduction to the B&H, since dog takes little 'cheap shot' bites and nips if sleeve is within reach. Dog is rewarded with a bite for sitting and barking. After a short carry & drive, helper slips the sleeve & handler cradles dog. Handler is then instructed to lift dog straight up until front feet are off the ground (by agitation collar, not choke/prong), and to command 'out' when dog spits out the sleeve and kick sleeve back towards helper._ 

My interpretation which may be wrong is………Sounds like he is trying to use word association for the out. Sounds like he is building the dog way up in drive and possessiveness. Sounds like the dog doesn’t have a good out and maybe he is working him “harder” or more “intensely” than normal. Sounds like he doesn’t want to ask the dog to out as he doesn’t believe he will do so quickly and on his own. Sounds like he doesn’t want to use a correction for the out for whatever reason at this point in time, dog is too green??.

_When handler voiced concern over, and was reluctant to do this, helper said dog was tired b/c it had been biting awhile, and would not want to out if commanded, and he wanted to 'clean the out up' some. Handler reluctantly did as told for the remainder of the session. Dog would not out after carrying sleeve off field and had to be choked off at car._

This is where I get confused. How old is the dog? Why not use a correction to “clean up the out”. To me using the ‘choke’ method does nothing much for teaching an out. We use it on younger dogs starting out who don’t have an out as it tends to keep the drive up as others have stated.

_Dog knows out and does it just fine, sitting nicely in front afterwards, when playing tug w/handler, but has not quite figured out that the same rules apply to helper/sleeve. As mentioned earlier, dog sits, but tries to elicit movement in the helper by nudging & nipping at sleeve. Dog did this w/tug at first, too, but that behavior was ignored and only sitting nicely in front was rewarded. Took only a few repetitions & dog was outing clean off tug and sitting in front of handler._

Here is some more guessing. Part of it is intensity of playing with tug with helper and handler are very different. I would guess the helper is putting some pressure on this dog and bringing out his fight. Its really hard to even guess from typed words. Why do they not have him on a long line and correct him when he nudges/ nips…or really even gets too close…...this part I don’t understand, unless the dog is has some confidence issues so they are letting him get away with stuff to help his confidence?

hell i dont know that is just my guesses :mrgreen: 
t


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## Kristen Cabe

Again, the 'choking off' is taking place after the sleeve has been slipped & the dog cradled, in case you missed that part. :wink: How would you correct at that point for failure to out?

The dog is 23 months old, has only been here a month, and only been worked at the club a few times. It doesn't have confidence _issues_, per se, but is so new that it is still being 'felt out.' 




> Why do they not have him on a long line and correct him when he nudges/ nips…or really even gets too close…


That's pretty much the point of the back tie, and it's more secure than someone holding a long line.


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## Tim Martens

Howard Gaines III said:


> Some K-9 handlers do this, others do not. I am not in favor of it for one BIG reason, conflict*.* I feel that you create a battle between the dog and the decoy, now you have a battle with the handler as well. Choke offs might be great as a last measure if you couldn't out the dog on your training decoy or TD. It is a dumb move from my way of thinking. Find new triggers to work the out command and give faster rebites. *The dog doesn't want to lose what it has worked to get*! :-k


which is why it is used sometimes...


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## Tim Martens

Lou Castle said:


> GREAT POINT Howard. Thanks for reminding me to mention how I avoid this conflict. During training when the handler approaches the fight he encourages the dog both verbally and by taking part in the fight. He makes sure that the dog sees him "helping." Then while still giving encouragement, often repeating the bite command, he takes the dog's collar by moving his hand in from behind the dog. He raises the dog's front feet off the ground and applies pressure towards the bite. He continues to encourage the dog and repeat the bite command. I don't have him give the release command during this.
> 
> When the dog releases the bite, the decoy quickly moves away and then either agitates or runs away, giving the dog the win. The entire time the handler is encouraging the dog and giving the bite command but he's still restraining the dog by the collar. The dog's attention stays focused on the decoy, never switching to the handler.
> 
> I don't think the dog feels any conflict doing it this way. The only evidence I have is that I've never had a handler bitten by his own dog or even had the dog shift his focus off the decoy. They remain "on the same team."


well said. this is precisely how my unit has used this technique. generally speaking this exercise is for a lower drive dog or a dog who has had too many rehearsed bite scenarios and begins to out before he's told. 

this technique is NOT for a dog that has problems outting. quite the opposite really...


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## tracey schneider

_Again, the 'choking off' is taking place after the sleeve has been slipped & the dog cradled, in case you missed that part. _

If you’re directing that at me……..nope didn’t miss that part. Cant imagine choking a dog off when he is still ON the helper. What you are describing is pretty typical in Sch. I feel Im picturing the majority of it pretty well. 

_How would you correct at that point for failure to out?_

Depends on the dog and how hard they are to out and what they can handle correction wise, that’s a wide open question with lots of dependents. 

_The dog is 23 months old, has only been here a month, and only been worked at the club a few times. It doesn't have confidence issues, per se, but is so new that it is still being 'felt out.'_

Kinda what I was getting at. By confidence issues, I didn’t mean the dog was a total wreck just not a knock your socks off kinda dog from day one..........these are few and far between.

Why do they not have him on a long line and correct him when he nudges/ nips…or really even gets too close… 

_That's pretty much the point of the back tie, and it's more secure than someone holding a long line._

Giving corrections is not the point of the back tie. A back tie will keep the dog posted at a distance and is more secure yes but if he is still getting bites and nips in then corrections from the handler need to be given *unless*………read previous post here. 

t


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## Howard Gaines III

Tracy I put my Bouvier on a back-tie Sunday just to readdress the "out" command. I back-tie was used for new decoy safety and so I could work the prong collar as needed. The "out" was given and he did very well. I then had the decoy give a fast second sleeve bite, a reward for the clean out. 

Yes, I did use the e-collar before and for the same thing. I idea of going back to the prong and not the e-collar is to avoid handler out issues. Limit the fight to the dog/decoy and allow the handler to be part of the kick butt team! Last point, the choke off for my purposes is just another fight scenario, one that shouldn't take place in a team scenario. I can see it for police work as law suits are always out there. Too often high drive dogs don't out and then are viewed as improperly "trained." Nothing is ever viewed as drive issues. The dog isn't a machine and I never see it as robotic in cause and effect commands.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

It is a technique to build frustration. The dog wants to keep the damn thing, and he eventually chooses air........OR people do this to keep the dog from chewing the precious sleeve cover, and pretty new sleeve. OR, you use a harness and just keep the dog from being able to take the thing to the ground, and you keep their head up so the decoy can get the dog refocused on him, so the dog will spit and that way you are not using an out command that you do not have, or do not want to use or........LOL

Hope that helps.

I liked the tactical thing. LOL


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## tracey schneider

Howard Gaines III said:


> Tracy I put my Bouvier on a back-tie Sunday just to readdress the "out" command. I back-tie was used for new decoy safety and so I could work the prong collar as needed. The "out" was given and he did very well. I then had the decoy give a fast second sleeve bite, a reward for the clean out.
> 
> Yes, I did use the e-collar before and for the same thing. I idea of going back to the prong and not the e-collar is to avoid handler out issues. Limit the fight to the dog/decoy and allow the handler to be part of the kick butt team! Last point, the choke off for my purposes is just another fight scenario, one that shouldn't take place in a team scenario. I can see it for police work as law suits are always out there. Too often high drive dogs don't out and then are viewed as improperly "trained." Nothing is ever viewed as drive issues. The dog isn't a machine and I never see it as robotic in cause and effect commands.


 
im not really sure why this was addressed to me.......maybe its just monday 

for the record, my post was strictly SCH speaking........

t


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## Rose DeLuca

Kristen Cabe said:


> Just wondering if the more experienced people on this board could enlighten me as to when it would be (or not) appropriate to choke a dog off a bite when it will out on command. It doesn't make sense to me and doesn't seem fair to the dog.


 
check out Ivan Balabanov's video series Clear Communication..... If you start a young dog in this method even really possesive driven dogs are amazingly constant. Older dogs with prior out training take a little more patience- but it does work ! Dog is driven for action; not to merely posses the tug. When game stops, dog outs and handler initiates the tug game again. Transfers directly to standstill and out on the field. If there is no fight the dog lets go in anticipation of making game/fight start again. It is amazing to see :-D 

Just food for thought or discussion- if you are choking the dog off- does he really know the out command ? 8-[


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## Mike Scheiber

Rose DeLucaDeLuca said:


> check outBalabanov'sBalabanov'seally possesive driven dogs are amazingly constant. Older dogs with prior out trpossesiveke a little more patience- but it does work ! Dog is driven for action; not to merely posses the tug. When game stops, dog outs and handler initiates the tug game again. Transfers directly to standstill and out on the field. If there is no fight the dog lets go in anticipation of making game/fight start again. It is amazing to see :-D
> 
> Just food for thought or discussion- if you are choking the dog off- does he really know the out command ? 8-[


Not just Ivan has been elementary in our club forever. Seen well over a 100 dog's come through or club through the years have never had out problems.
We never let our dogs automatic out only the command aus we achieve this using mostly fake aus lock up no command fight lock up no command fight lock up aus bite slip or bite fight slip what ever. 
When doing puppy/young dogs we lift them ether by the harness, flat collar or just lift them by the body up off the ground till they drop or let go of the object no chocking WTF :lol:


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## Kristen Cabe

Outing is not the problem with this dog. The problem is after she outs, she nips/nudges at the sleeve trying to get it to move again. She did this with the tug at first, too, but utilizing 'Ivan's method' solved the problem in just one session. 

Thanks for all the input.


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## Al Curbow

My pup would try to hang on forever. Micheal Ellis had him outing nice in 5 minutes, he stopped the game, stopped moving etc. when the dog outed he waited a second and started back up, really nice and simple. I went to pull the dogs feet up off the ground the first time and he told me not to do that so i watched. He said some dogs you might as well pull up a lawn chair but it works and it's all very clear to the dog, awesome,


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## Phil Dodson

> I first obseved that method in 1988 when co hosting a seminar at Ft. Lewis, Wa. with the WSPCA. I think it was Pat O'Conner with Ray Allen if I am correct. Spokane had an over agressive mal that would not out. He did the same application and after standing for quite awhile the dog finally outed. He immediatly moved and the dog bit again. After a few of these he instructed the handler to call his dog out and he released like a champ, it was excellant.


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## Howard Knauf

This technique crosses paths with the one I brought up a few weeks ago where Tom Nye taught the out by allowing the dog to hang on until he let go. There are a lot of good reasons for not doing that with a patrol dog, but for sport maybe its OK. Same for teaching young dogs. For older hard dogs the issues seem to be the same.


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## Al Curbow

He said he's done it with dogs from all venues. Out is out, right?


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## Lou Castle

Al Curbow said:


> He said he's done it with dogs from all venues. Out is out, right?


Some think it is but I disagree. While both sport and police outs have the dog releasing the bite, WHY the dog is releasing is important in the LE venue. I don't think that "the why" is as important in the sport venue. This is one of the problems that exist with sport folks training police dogs, thinking that if it looks the same it is the same. 

Many people train dogs to out because they're anticipating a treat, a toy or some other form of play. They change drives. I think that a police dog needs to stay in a combat drive the entire time that he's dealing with a crook, not shift into play, pack or something else. Methods should be used that keep the dog in combat, ready to fight. If he outs because he's anticipating a game, he might not be ready if he needs to bite again immediately. 

Methods of getting the out that have the dog hanging on until he releases by himself work because the dog gets tired and the bite actually becomes painful. I'm told that this is because the lactic acid builds up in the jaw muscles, like a weightlifter "getting a burn," it becomes painful and so the dog quits the fight. I never want a police dog quitting the fight. I never want him releasing because he's tired. We have no way of knowing how long the fight will go on. I never want him to think that biting is uncomfortable. 

Some sports will have the dog out automatically if the decoy stops fighting. That's completely inappropriate for a police dog. I know that a few countries, I think the UK is one, WANT this in their dogs, but that's another discussion. 

Some sports will have the dog out and then guard the decoy. I prefer that
the dog's default behavior is to return to the handler. After all, his primary job is protecting him. MANY times I've shown handlers that their dogs will stay with and bark at the decoy while another decoy is attacking them. Once the dog knows the out, any command can be given.


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