# K9 Training effectiveness



## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

*Moved over from the "Sport Dogs are useless" thread* _*These are verbatim posts but please bear in mind none of these people are making generalizations about all K9 PSDs, handlers, or any people in this forum.*_

Jeff Oehlsen said...


> I have to admit, I have seen some half assed performances from a PD impress the crap out of people.
> 
> I went and trained with a buddy of mine, there were a few K9 guys there. So I had invited some people from the club so we could train somewhere different. I guess they were under the same impression as the general public. OOOPS!
> 
> I have heard that they cannot train the dog unless they are being paid for it, and are also allotted so much time each month. I imagine some asswipe badge hunter cried about having to actually train his dog, and cried that he wasn't being paid for it and ruined everything for real K9 guys. I would just train anyway. I would rather be fired than dead.


then Andres Martin said...


> The best of the best stay in competition, are at stud, cost too much money for a police dept, or all of the above. Police departments in the US, mostly get left-overs.
> 
> K9 handlers don't always have the "calling" for the job.
> 
> Someone recently told me that K9 officers and dogs should be under the supervision of the most elite squad in a department, and not part of the rank and file, as the rank and file are often "conformists" and lax.


then Konnie Hein said...


> I think we're way off topic here, but we're dealing with this right now on one of my USAR teams. We have 3 PSD handlers on the team who are also trying to cross-train for USAR. Nice guys, all of them (no rib shots needed Very Happy ). However, they can't leave the state with their dogs for training or testing, they can't train unless they're getting paid, they can't train USAR for more than a specific number of hours per month, they can't train in the rain (dogs might get hurt), etc. etc. etc. Basically they're getting screwed and we're all beginning to wonder why they're on the team. These types of rules also apply to any other training they do. Its really sad and I feel bad for them because I know they could be very productive if allowed to do so. Makes you wonder what the state is thinking. Being strictly a volunteer, the huge ball of red tape is new to me.
> 
> On the other hand, they get an overtime paycheck for their time spent at our training. That sure would be a nice perk!


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

Woody...
You clearly have missed your true calling.
I'm sure Hugo Chavez, Fidel Castro, the A.H. from Iran, or one of their kind, could put your agitation skills to good use.


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Andres Martin said:


> Woody...
> You clearly have missed your true calling.
> I'm sure Hugo Chavez, Fidel Castro, the A.H. from Iran, or one of their kind, could put your agitation skills to good use.


Brutal, ain't it? It's because I trust you all so much. 

Hopefully starting decoy training in a few weeks, send up those hounds.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Woody Taylor said:


> Andres Martin said:
> 
> 
> > Woody...
> ...


And cows.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Computer nerds catching dogs. I need video of this. My impression is one of your not being able to walk and chew gum. Try not to hurt any of the dogs, as this is what clumsy does in an actual training session, as opposed to what you are used to, here in cyber space.


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Computer nerds catching dogs. I need video of this. My impression is one of your not being able to walk and chew gum. Try not to hurt any of the dogs, as this is what clumsy does in an actual training session, as opposed to what you are used to, here in cyber space.


Heh.


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

hahahaha!
Hey. I hope you get initiated into decoying properly. With a HARD biter, that bites and re bites, preferrably in the calf area. Make sure you don´t move. Stay still while the dog is doing this.
Whatever you do...DO NOT start your training with a sleeve. Sleeves are for pussies. Not dogs.


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Andres Martin said:


> hahahaha!
> Hey. I hope you get initiated into decoying properly. With a HARD biter, that bites and re bites, preferrably in the calf area. Make sure you don´t move. Stay still while the dog is doing this.
> Whatever you do...DO NOT start your training with a sleeve. Sleeves are for pussies. Not dogs.


Cool. Sounds like I'm with the right club. They said just kind of run around on the field and act suspicious but loud. Business casual...khakis and a polo shirt...right?


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

<<I have heard that they cannot train the dog unless they are being paid for it, and are also allotted so much time each month. I imagine some asswipe badge hunter cried about having to actually train his dog,>>

Since nothing that was posted was really a question, just meant to stir the pot, what the heck, I'll play along. I'll start by saying that the statement I copied shows a couple of areas of "innocence" for the lack of a more argumentative word. 

I'm sure that working people every where donate hundreds of hours to thier employer. Yet if a police officer feels he's entitled to pay for hours worked they called some silly name. (actually that name doesn't make sense), but having said that, I'd also like to point out that under Federal law, Businesses, police departments, the water department, IBM, Ford Motor Company, General Motors, the list goes on but I think you get the idea, are required to compensate workers for hours worked. Why should the dog handler, be any different. If the mechanic that fixes the car has to work overtime, he'll get paid. I'm assuming if some on this board, that works for a business, works overtime, they will get paid.

Training a police dog, in my department, and many that I work with, is on-duty time. Therefore the officer is not paid overtime, it's part of his required hours. Which by the way, we don't work 40 hour weeks, we work 28 day schedules of 160 hours. Officers are compensated for 1 hour per day for care of dog and kennel. They can be compensated at a rate less than thier (police) hourly rate. This is Federally mandated, departments not abiding by the law are subject to punitive action. I guess my biggest question relative pay, why should a police officer be any different than anyone else when it comes to compensation. Sure I like my job. I love being canine, does that mean I should be treated differently than anyone else in the workplace. Or, perhaps, anyone that has a job they truly enjoy should be required to work extra hours without compensation. Hmm that might work.

On the training aspect, <<<<The best of the best stay in competition, are at stud, cost too much money for a police dept, or all of the above. Police departments in the US, mostly get left-overs.>>>>

Utter nonsense and shows a complete lack of understanding of police canine units or how they procure dogs. 

<<<<However, they can't leave the state with their dogs for training or testing, they can't train unless they're getting paid,>>>

I have an idea, why don't you borrow equipment from your employer and take it out of state. Of course the employer is still liable if something happens, but then we know, no one really likes law suits so I'm sure it would be ok. As far as training without being paid, I refer you to the Federal Labor Standards Act. Not only could the department be held liable for payment but for punitive damages as well.

As for volunteering, police officers, like any other citizen can buy a dog to be trained in search and rescue, train it, deploy with it, on his own time, and work all he wants. While many departments do require you obtain approval, I've never heard of an officer being turned down as a volunteer in these aspects. Many are volunteer firement, EMT's etc.

So many conclusions based on, what I percieve, very little fact.

DFrost


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote:So many conclusions based on, what I percieve, very little fact. 

Of course there is. Ever think about what it is like to talk to a cop as a civilian? So many times I am watching them not have a clue training an animal that is supposed to save their lives, with an ability that borders on incompetence. And as a bonus, they are cocky, and act like you are an annoyance. I do not treat people that way. No matter what it may seem like here, with my lack of typing skills that keep me from getting across what I mean in a satisfactory way all the time, as evidenced by what people comment on, in person I am willing to spend time helping others get better.

I like to bust out my weak dog and watch them stare in horror when he does their shitte better than their dogs do. Then I get out the better dogs and show them what a dog is capable of, cause cops certainly don't have a clue.

So many conclusions based on, what I percieve, very little fact. Of course we don't know what your procedures are. But it is an aweful lot of fun to have cops tell you that they don't disclose their training to civilians. HA! they couldn't explain it to me if they wanted to.

So you have a gun. Everytime you fire it in practice they pay you? Or do you just go with the training they give you at the scheduled intervals?

If my life depended, or even could depend on, the training that I put in to a gun or a dog, I could give a shit if they paid me. Of course, I was in the USMC, so we have a different outlook. We don't hand out traffic tickets and think it is dangerous  :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:   


Cops. :roll:


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

<< like to bust out my weak dog and watch them stare in horror when he does their shitte better than their dogs do.>>>

It's certainly a shame your department has such a weak canine program.

<<< as a bonus, they are cocky, and act like you are an annoyance.>>

With the quote above, re: busting out the weak dog, geez, I don't understand why they would think you are anything but wanting to be helpful.

<<<So you have a gun. Everytime you fire it in practice they pay you?>>

Actually, I have several issued weapons. Yes we are required to attend mandatory training sessions, for which we are paid. We are also given rounds to practice with on our own if we desire. We don't get paid for that, but we are permitted to enjoy it. 

We may have a different outlook, actually I'm certain that we do. However I'm retired military, spent time in a combat zone actually. Although I have no idea what that has to do with the price of kibbles in Indiana.

<<Cops. >>>

Yeah I know, ya gotta love us. Plus we get to drive fast and we have a secret handshake. Ooops, maybe I wasn't supposed to mention that.

DFrost


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote:We are also given rounds to practice with on our own if we desire. We don't get paid for that, but we are permitted to enjoy it. 

So dog training doesn't go under enjoyable?


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

<<<So dog training doesn't go under enjoyable?>>>

It is to me, what's your question?

DFrost


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

David Frost said:


> <<<<However, they can't leave the state with their dogs for training or testing, they can't train unless they're getting paid,>>>
> 
> I have an idea, why don't you borrow equipment from your employer and take it out of state. Of course the employer is still liable if something happens, but then we know, no one really likes law suits so I'm sure it would be ok. As far as training without being paid, I refer you to the Federal Labor Standards Act. Not only could the department be held liable for payment but for punitive damages as well.
> 
> ...


David:
I certainly appreciate what you're saying. I didn't get into all the details of my USAR team, which perhaps I should have if I was going to use it as an example. There's so much more to it than this and it boils down to politics and pissing matches. Personally, I believe they shouldn't even be on the team with their PSDs due to all the restrictions. There's just no way it can work. Given what I said in my post, they still want to be deployed to disasters regardless of their lack of USAR training or certification. (which really is a different, unrelated subject)

I would LOVE for the state troopers on our team to get their own dogs and volunteer their time to our USAR team. I don't see that happening though.

I think the real issue is amount of training time - is it sufficient for the task?


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

David Frost wrote


> On the training aspect, "The best of the best stay in competition, are at stud, cost too much money for a police dept, or all of the above. Police departments in the US, mostly get left-overs."
> 
> Utter nonsense and shows a complete lack of understanding of police canine units or how they procure dogs.


I was not referring to training, but to dogs. Yet even if you mean dogs...I'm specifically referring to the best of the best in dog sports.

Even still, I'm puzzled   

David, are you implying that the majority of the dogs Police Departments in the US purchase are the "best of the best" due to the expertise of canine units and the effectiveness of their procurement practices????????

Wow! I disagreeeeeeeeee...respectfully.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Ronnie, I understand exactly what you are saying. Let's look at this from a different perspective however. In regards to your statement:<<Personally, I believe they shouldn't even be on the team with their PSDs >>> I agree. They shouldn't be on your team with PSD's.

1. They are probably going to be deployed to prevent looting, protect property and immediate rescue. Troopers, at least in my and the surrounding states are among the first responders to a disaster. Believe me, we've had several this spring already. Our first priority is rescue the living, second; protect property, third; recover the dead.

2. The PSD's are going to be used in that capacity (protect property). Not SAR. We have a cadaver dog, that is used in the recovery phase.

3. My statement relative law enforcement officers and SAR was about volunteering to assist with SAR. There are some that do. The problem is, if there is a disaster, they may well be placed on duty status and not able to respond as a volunteer.

4. Being more familiar with disaster scenes than I care to think about, I'm well aware of the politics and pissing matches. It's not all that uncommon among police agencies, when it's a multi department event.

Since there is no real recognized certification for SAR, other than FEMA, that also presents another problem. I refer you to the thread on SAR and some of the comments made there.

Training time is always the issue, regardless of where you work. But it's not just the amount of time available, it's what's done with the time that is available. But now we are talking standards, and measuring performance to those standards. 

DFrost


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote:<<<So dog training doesn't go under enjoyable?>>> 

It is to me, what's your question? 

I didn't think it was that subtle.  If you can get rounds to practice with on your own, then you can or cannot train the dog on your own? Also, does it go in the training log?

If going out of state to a training seminar is feasable, they could do so out of their own pocket, or no?


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

<<<David, are you implying that the majority of the dogs Police Departments in the US purchase are the "best of the best" due to the expertise of canine units and the effectiveness of their procurement practices????????>>>

It's a matter of economics my friend. While there are many in the sport, they aren't buying the dogs we want or paying the prices we are paying. Now I would agree there are those in the sport that pay mega dollars for certain dogs, but the vendors we are buying from are not selling a lot of those dogs to sport folk, they go to police vendors because of the sheer numbers. But generally, it's all the same pool of dogs. 

DFrost


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

David Frost said:


> 1. They are probably going to be deployed to prevent looting, protect property and immediate rescue. Troopers, at least in my and the surrounding states are among the first responders to a disaster. Believe me, we've had several this spring already. Our first priority is rescue the living, second; protect property, third; recover the dead.
> 
> 2. The PSD's are going to be used in that capacity (protect property). Not SAR. We have a cadaver dog, that is used in the recovery phase.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your input. It is very helpful to get your perspective. However, the state and our team admin wants these PSDs to deploy with our USAR team to find live human beings buried in the rubble (with one or two days a month of training and no evaluation/certification for live-find USAR). I think the other uses you described would be perfect for these guys. Perhaps I can suggest that to our team administration.

Now back to the original topic...


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

So...

Pointblank:

In you opinion, Police departments in the US get the best dogs?

Yes or NO.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

What I said was, they all come from the same pool. It's the same pool. 

DFrost


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

Aha! A political answer. I can see you DFrosting.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

David Frost said:


> Yeah I know, ya gotta love us. Plus we get to drive fast and we have a secret handshake. Ooops, maybe I wasn't supposed to mention that.


There's a secret handshake??? I knew it!! I knew about the driving fast, but a handshake, wow, I needa ask one of the boys in green to teach me it.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

i'll chime in on a few things....

i agree with both of you DFrost and Jeff. yes FLSA comes into play as DFrost said, but any good handler will tell you there are countless unpaid hours if you want a "good" dog. there aren't many people who volunteer for k9 to get rich. it's a labor of love for the most part.

we certainly do NOT get the best dogs because the pool is NOT the same. at least with the dutch dogs. i can say this for certain. most of the PD's in NL have good relationships with the KNPV clubs. most of the time they are scouting out new dogs before they even get their PH1. they have handshake agreements with the club and owner that after the dog gets the PH1, they get the dog. true they probably don't pay as much as we would, but look no further than our own Selena. her husband breeds some of the best dogs on the planet. what are the odds that selena or dick would send one of their better pups over here? probably just slightly above ZERO. why would they send it over here when they can watch the dog's progress first hand over there? or in a nearby country. for the most part the dogs we get come from the K9 centers, where they pay about 3000 euro for a PH1. what are the dogs that get sold to k9 centers? that's right. the ones who haven't been spoken for already. yes, these are still very, very good dogs, but they aren't the "first picks" and certainly are not "in the same pool" of dogs.

germany? belgium? france? i cannot say. i don't know, but i would assume it's the same thing...


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Tim Martens said:


> we certainly do NOT get the best dogs because the pool is NOT the same. at least with the dutch dogs. i can say this for certain. most of the PD's in NL have good relationships with the KNPV clubs. most of the time they are scouting out new dogs before they even get their PH1. they have handshake agreements with the club and owner that after the dog gets the PH1, they get the dog. true they probably don't pay as much as we would, but look no further than our own Selena. her husband breeds some of the best dogs on the planet. what are the odds that selena or dick would send one of their better pups over here? probably just slightly above ZERO. why would they send it over here when they can watch the dog's progress first hand over there? or in a nearby country. for the most part the dogs we get come from the K9 centers, where they pay about 3000 euro for a PH1. what are the dogs that get sold to k9 centers? that's right. the ones who haven't been spoken for already. yes, these are still very, very good dogs, but they aren't the "first picks" and certainly are not "in the same pool" of dogs.


Very true Tim. 
Dogs for the department that are good, in my husbands eyes, are spoken for up till 1 yr for their PH1 trial... He buys his dogs from people we know, know how they´re training etc. So he can built the PSD training uppon their training.
the police departments pays about 1000-1500 euro more than a k9 center, so people like to sell to the department. At least that is how it goes in our region.

The dogs in the K9 centers are the ones who are TO difficult to train(for some people), has training faults, aren´t good enough (for some people), and for the ones who´d trialed: not spoken for.

For my puppies, yes I like to have an eye on them..we have so few litters with so few puppies (about 1 litter a year, with 4-6 puppies). At this point most of our dogs are in HOlland, 1 in England, 1 in Belgium. The next litter is spoken for since last january, was planned this june, but she wasn´t pregnant. People are willing to wait till next january (unique in KNPV world!!). Litter wat is planned for next summer is already spoken for most puppies, 1 of the puppies will go to Switserland for someone in a policedepartment. I hope that will work out, it will be the puppy farest away.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Just send me a pup, I'll show you what the US can do with good dogs, just wait another two years before you do so, I need to get a few things done first. :lol:


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Just send me a pup, I'll show you what the US can do with good dogs, just wait another two years before you do so, I need to get a few things done first. :lol:


 :lol: 

Im afraid you´ve some people here on the board, that are above you on the waiting list IF i would consider sending a pup over.... :wink:


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

For the most part, departments aren't buying puppies. It's still the same pool everyone else is buying from. As I said, it's a matter of economics. A few may be purchased from US breeders, but generally larger departments, with budgets, are buying imports. At least in my part of the country. The cost is ranging between 4,800 and 5,500 dollars, depending whether or not the dog has had any work done. Some of the larger vendors operating the US generally have an adequate supply of dogs available. As far as "best available". That's nothing more than semantics. You drive a Chevy, I drive a Ford, but the guy with the Lexus certainly feels he got the best deal. 

DFrost


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

David Frost said:


> For the most part, departments aren't buying puppies. It's still the same pool everyone else is buying from. As I said, it's a matter of economics. A few may be purchased from US breeders, but generally larger departments, with budgets, are buying imports. At least in my part of the country. The cost is ranging between 4,800 and 5,500 dollars, depending whether or not the dog has had any work done. Some of the larger vendors operating the US generally have an adequate supply of dogs available. As far as "best available". That's nothing more than semantics. You drive a Chevy, I drive a Ford, but the guy with the Lexus certainly feels he got the best deal.
> 
> DFrost


PH1's are not puppies and i think i already pointed out how it's not the same pool everyone else is buying from....


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Jeff Oehlsen said:
> 
> 
> > Just send me a pup, I'll show you what the US can do with good dogs, just wait another two years before you do so, I need to get a few things done first. :lol:
> ...


yeah, get in line jeff [-X


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I have a puppy coming in the fall/winter. I was thinking this summer, but there is (I think) a better breeding coming this fall. I could be wrong, but I don't think it is gonna affect much if I am.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Actually Tim, all you've done is pointed it out to your satisfaction, but hey if that floats your boat, then I'm glad you are happy. I'm well aware PH1's aren't puppies, I just bought one. And what pool would that have come from?

DFrost


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Mmmm, don´t want a fight ( :wink: )with another moderator, but it really depends on trainer, region and points in trial. 

A dog with 440 could be a real policedog but also (more likely these day..to bad) a good sportsdog (IMO). Every certificate without "lof" is surely not a very well trained dog, JMO.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

David Frost said:


> Actually Tim, all you've done is pointed it out to your satisfaction, but hey if that floats your boat, then I'm glad you are happy. I'm well aware PH1's aren't puppies, I just bought one. And what pool would that have come from?
> 
> DFrost


do YOU even know where the dog came from? more than likely the dog was bought at a k9 center. don't get the wrong idea here david. nobody is saying that the dog you just bought isn't a very good dog, but the fact of the matter is, the best of the best (as identified by police department trainers in NL) are picked out and watched from a young age. so after the cream has been scraped from the top, yes, after that everyone gets dogs from the same pool. if you think they send us over their best dogs because they really like us, i'm afraid you've been drinking the vendor kool-aid. selena, who lives over there and maybe, just maybe has more insight into the dog business over there. she confirmed what i had known to be true from talking to other people that have been there or live there.

don't take offense. we still get very good dogs over here, but generally speaking we do not get their "best" dogs. that is a FACT. there are always exceptions. if you know somebody who is plugged in over there at the club level and will keep an eye out for you, sure you have a chance to get a very good dog, but if you're going through a vendor/importer here who gets dogs in volume, they are going through the k9 centers and the previous applies...


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Selena, no argument here. It's my experience, most of the larger departments are not looking for a fully trained dog. Mostly they are looking for those dogs that have demonstrated enough they will make a good police dog. I know there are a lot of dogs being imported from Holland, Germany, and other places. I also know that what is purchased by vendors is what is made available. That pool is the same for anyone that wants to pay. I was first involved in buying dogs from Europe in 1981 for the military. During that period, the military bought a lot of junk, because that is what was offered. Things have changed since then.

DFrost


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