# Ears Down On Heel



## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

I have a 9 month old Dutch Shepherd whose ears are pinned back against his head on heel when exposed to distractions. With no distractions his ears are erect. By distractions I mean if I practice heeling downtown his ears are pinned the whole time. If I practice heel around the house the ear stay erect. I understand the ears pinned back are stress signals. I thought after repeated trips downtown this would disappear. It's been over a month now and the ears are the same. I suspect he is anticipating corrections. 

I can't decide how to cure this stress related situation.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Bring the dog downtown without working on the heeling. If it shows that it can relax while not under command, do VERY short heeling. 
At 9 months old it may, depending on the dog, be to much to be using correction training. Have you given any though to teaching the heeling through drive? 
It's hard to get a dog to lay it's ears back with that method. :grin: :wink:


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Bob. I've been taking him and not doing any heeling exercises for the first half of the session. There is no change. If a pedestrian walks by the ears go up. When they pass by the ears go down again. I'm treating everything good including when i can coach the ears up. When I break out the treat the ears go up immediately. Then they drop back down. 

I've been using a ecollar. I tried switching to a prong and had the same results. I only tried the prong for 1 day. 

The dog is hard in all other circumstances. It just seems to be this heel issue. I get the same reaction when I train heel at the grocery store. 

He doesn't much care for "watch me". He loves to look around. I'm correcting him regularly in these areas to get him to watch me. If I had it to do all over again I would take him to these type places and let him get used to them before staring any training exercises. I suspect I created this problem introducing these type distractions to early. 

Now I have to figure out how to undo the problem which often takes twice as long.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> I suspect I created this problem introducing these type distractions to early.
> 
> Now I have to figure out how to undo the problem which often takes twice as long.


It sounds to me like the corrections are causing the problem and not the distractions, that's kinda young IMO for the e-collar.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

i have talked to respected trainers who like their dog's ears pinned back during OB. they don't like the frantic jumping, flashy OB. they believe the calm dog (or ears pinned back anticipating corrections) is more reliable under stress...


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Hi Gerry - I understand about the ecollar. This is a very hard, dominant, almost handler aggressive pup. I don't use the dominant description lightly. For instance since he was 4 months old we will finish some little training exercise and he will immediately jump on my arm and grab my shirt or jacket sleeve and the fight is on. I need the ecollar stim to get him off. Prongs make him even more aggressive.

He will always take treats after any stim. He will walk right through many stims if he is in drive. I have to go from 30 to 50 or more on a Dogtra 1700 and even then he might not react.

He is a very tough dog except with this one issue.

I agree that the corrections are causing the problem. I'm trying to figure out an alternative because without the corrections this dog will start trying to run the show.


With all other training he is very motivated although stubborn at times. His ears are up in all other exercises. That's why I'm puzzled. This is out of character for him.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

I'll have to think about that Tim. I hate the way he looks with his ears pinned back. I guess I'm being vain through my dog.

Maybe it's me who needs the help!!!


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## Dan Long (Jan 10, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> It sounds to me like the corrections are causing the problem and not the distractions, that's kinda young IMO for the e-collar.


I said that before as well. This dog has been on an ecollar for a while now.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I'm gonna stir the $#!+ some here but, IMHO, a dog with good drive for a ball, treat, tug or even a bite, can be trained without heavy/any corrections. I don't care how hard the dog is! If you feel the corrections are necessary, use them AFTER the dog is trained. If your still correcting with a pinch, e-collar, etc, your not training, your correcting! 
WHY create a stressful situation where a strong dog, that's full of fight, expects correction instead of reward for being correct?!!!
Lee, try this for a while! http://www.leespets.com/TheEyeContactGame.html


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Bob. I'm open minded and up for anything that will help my dog work with the least amount of compulsion.

I use the pager more than stim on the ecollar so that article you suggested looks interesting. That said I admit to being a doubter regarding training without any corrections. I always presumed it might be possible with the right dog if someone spent 10 times the time necessary to train the same dog with some degree of compulsion.

I will give it a try. Tomorrow is a new day!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Lee, our whole club trains without correction. We have dogs of all temperments. We have Schutzhund titles, AKC ob titles, Iron dog titles, etc.
I've seen dogs with serious issues do a complete 180 when the pressure was taken off and they learned to enjoy the game instead of doing it "cause I said so". 
One dog in particular. A Presa was purchased with a SchHI title. The dog was correct but did the OB routine "cause the person said so". It was retraind using ALL motivational training and she was a totally different dog in getting her SchHII. She enjoyed the TEAMWORK.  
I'll never say compulsion doesn't work. I've just found, for me, after 50+ yrs of playing with dogs, that it makes more sense to create, through drive, a dog that wants to work instead of a dog that has to.
I'm still learning and it's been harder for me then the young folks comming in that have never trained at all. I DO believe it works!
Cours lots of folks tell us we must have sissy dogs if we can do it this way. 
Come take a bite! :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile:


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

some of it depends on what you are going to do with the dog. SchH? yes, that upbeat, tail wagging, prancing, bouncing heeling is needed. 

the trainer i'm speaking of specifically, told me that if he gets a dog that does that, he takes it out of them. he does not like it. my dog has a tendency to bounce during heeling (stupid IPO) and i constantly fight to take that out. i personally don't like it either. i want the dog to be so focused on me and my next move (with a correction if he's wrong), that he has no time for bouncing and prancing. sure, if he does it properly i will reward him with praise and/or a tug or ball. i think you can balance compulsion/reward with better results than just one or the other...


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Tim you describe the way I've worked my last 4 dogs. I used to be a old time Bill Koehler type trainer. I'm not any more. I'm 61 years old and thats the way I learned back then. I've owned working bloodline GSD's, Rott's and currently Dutchies since I was in my early 20's.

I don't do dog sports. I pride myself on having very obedient dogs. I try to train as if I was doing sports. I do get professional helpers for bite work. I have no interest in tracking. It is a hobby that I enjoy.

I never ran into this issue before. It is strange that it is so isolated to just one training exercise, heeling with distractions. Even though my dog has a ecollar on I am not working him with hard corrections. Most of the time stim level is just high enough to get his attention or I'm using the pager.

I simply want his ears up because I know it is a sign of stress. I explained this dog is a tough guy in every other phase of training. His temperament, other than one time that lasted for a month, is really hard.

He is a great dog. I am really patient with him because he is just a pup. I work hard to keep him the hard ass that he is. I don't want to break him down at all. He is the type dog that would take over if I allowed him to. I work constantly with him on that fine line of maintaining control while letting him be as tough as possible.

He is the best dog I ever owned and I am no newcomer to working dog breeds!


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Bob Scott said:


> I'm gonna stir the $#!+ some here but, IMHO, a dog with good drive for a ball, treat, tug or even a bite, can be trained without heavy/any corrections. I don't care how hard the dog is! If you feel the corrections are necessary, use them AFTER the dog is trained. If your still correcting with a pinch, e-collar, etc, your not training, your correcting!
> WHY create a stressful situation where a strong dog, that's full of fight, expects correction instead of reward for being correct?!!!
> Lee, try this for a while! http://www.leespets.com/TheEyeContactGame.html


 
Well put! Pinch collars, e-collars, whatever...how can you correct what you may not have taught? A dog with strong ball drives is a dog that wants to please, it's a prey/hunting drive. Now if a Lab can go out an bring back fallen game and give it to a higher pack "animal" why can't this dog go out and bring back a ball? At nine months of age, I don't know of many puppies that are so "hard" that a smarter pack leader can't out fox them...[-X 

Stress is being read by your dog and you are reading your dog's ears. This thing is steaking stress to you. If it is "hard" right now, what will you do when it 18 months old and can back up any drive behavior? My way of thinking is that you can win the "game" by playing a game, compultion/corrections might be an issue. The other thought can be the dog doesn't or can't fully read you. Are you giving any mixed signals in basic OB?

I'm not there, but like Bob is saying in this post, heavy corrections or unfair corrections can come back to bite you!:-x


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

In the old days we trained force methods without first teaching the dogs the exercizes. We also used corrections to teach. Those were some pretty brutal methods. These days those of us who are not purely motivational, those of us who use corrections/force and motivation don't do it the old way. If you use motivational methods to teach, then bring in corrections or even force, you end up with a happier dog. In schutzhund our dogs are completely focused on us during heeling excercizes despite the "bouncing".


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

I don't think I'm giving any mixed signals. The dog was taught heel and watch me before any corrections were ever given. He does perfect in a environment without distractions. No corrections are necessary.

Perhaps the environment with distractions was introduced too early. The dog will sit, down, stand, do long stays and come from a couple of hundred feet away in distraction type environments all happy, enthused,with ears up and almost never a correction. That confused me. Why just the heel exercise creates stress when none of the other situations did is the part I don't understand. This dog will come fast ears up and foward past grocery automatic sliding doors that open and close as he passes totally focused on getting to me. I plan on doing the downtown thing with no heeling or training exercises whatsoever. Bob as well as a PM I received suggested I try that for a while.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Lee, when your doing this, don't be concerned with control as long as the dog shows a reasonable amount of manners. Have a good time with your dog. Play with him. You want to become a team, not a master/slave relationship. 
As a few here have mentioned, you dog may just be to young for the corrections your giving it. 
I won't knock corrections on a dog as long as they are fair.


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## Sarah ten Bensel (Mar 16, 2008)

I'll give it a try... Acouple of things--the dog as been rreinforced as ears back is OK. This speaks to the dog's state of mind. Second, Change the criteria for the reward--whatever your reward is (praise, tug, etc) From basic position ask you dog to heel/fuss but don't step forward. He looks up at you right? Wait until he relaxes enough to get his ears up, then release to the toy. Repeat. The idea that dog makes a connection between the more-relaxed (less stressed) state of mind and the reward. Build into heeling from there--so the dogs re-learns the behvior. I am not talking about happy prancey heeling, but a heeling behavior from the dog that days "I am not stressed about this, and maybe even a bit happy!"
Taking a step back to a play/drive based foundation with less distractions as others have said. Good luck


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Lee,

It isn't "vain" to be very detailed in what you expect in a behavior. Ears up are part of the heeling in your mind.

Go downtown with awesome treats or the best toy. When his ears go up, drop the toy to him, regardless of his position. Get the ears up. 

Train in this order:

Enthusiasm
Accuracy
Duration

Get the enthusiam, get the ears up, then move on to heeling. Basically what Sarah says. 

OT note:

For correcting handler aggression, you'd be best off to use a slip or choke style collar. You'll nip the behavior in the bud really quickly. (pun intended) The e-collar is a stimulating correction and it isn't "from you." There's a dog at our club that has no respect for it's owners. They use a e-collar. The dog is 3 years old and this is getting into serious business! They've just recently switched to a choke collar for handler aggression.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Perhaps the environment with distractions was introduced too early. The dog will sit, down, stand, do long stays and come from a couple of hundred feet away in distraction type environments all happy, enthused,with ears up and almost never a correction.


Hey Lee, if your dog does all that at 9 months be happy. I'm just starting obediance and way behind you, I'm not interested in comp ob though just want him to walk beside me.

I made this today so you can see you're ahead of the game (to date) 
Hope this works.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=y9cEyn-GlKg


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Thanks everyone for all the help and suggestions. I decided to take him downtown for awhile without any training commands and then start again slowly using some of the advice I got here.

I began this effort 2 days ago and his ears are mostly up already.:smile:


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