# GSD Lines



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

What GSD lines that are working should one stay away from and why?


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> What GSD lines that are working should one stay away from and why?


Can't see a reason to stay away from a dog that works .


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Answer the question JIM!!! I know there are some lines that have come to the front that weren't there 20 years ago. Close breeding has screwed this dog up.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Answer the question JIM!!! I know there are some lines that have come to the front that weren't there 20 years ago. Close breeding has screwed this dog up.


I did . GSD lines that are working shouldn't be avoided . If the actual question is what Working line GSD's should be avoided I'll leave that up to others that have experiance with that . I don't breed and since I deal with purchased green dogs that test out well as PSD candidates the lineage isn't important . Just what they can do is .


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

Jim Nash said:


> ...lineage isn't important . Just what they can do is .


Word.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Answer the question JIM!!! I know there are some lines that have come to the front that weren't there 20 years ago. Close breeding has screwed this dog up.


The working German Shepherd is still and should be bred as a utility dog so its a balance what certain lines bring to the table and the goal of the breeding what dogs to go back on or out or out completely.
By the way close breeding has not screwed up this dog go back and look at some of the greats and see how they were bred do you know the breed is a little more than a100 years old.
I'm a consumer and all in our club are consumers we got a shit load of really nice young prospects coming up EVERY ONE of the handlers made a big effort and did there there homework and asked for help from people that know the working lines and went to breeders that stacked the deck and didn't breed out of convenience.
Howard my dog is a J litter "Jett" I had a pretty good idea what I was going to get. I gave him his name before he hit the ground.
I'd stay away from Willie the know it all dog man lines.


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## Shane Woodlief (Sep 9, 2009)

Howard Gaines III said:


> What GSD lines that are working should one stay away from and why?


Howard unfortunately I don't think that you are going to get anyone to go on the record and answer your question. I am not being a jerk here. I wish those who knew the answers to the questions your asking would answer and save people a lot of time and money. 

Here is what a friend and 4x world competitor told me that " a litter of 8 to 10 Only 2 at the very max 3 will be good dogs". He is an avid gsd guy. He raised both his world dogs from pups. Between his first world competitor and his current one that is 6 yrs old he went through i think 10 dogs.

So I agree that it is not so much about lines as it is about the pup in front of you.


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## Shane Woodlief (Sep 9, 2009)

Mike Scheiber said:


> The working German Shepherd is still and should be bred as a utility dog so its a balance what certain lines bring to the table and the goal of the breeding what dogs to go back on or out or out completely.
> By the way close breeding has not screwed up this dog go back and look at some of the greats and see how they were bred do you know the breed is a little more than a100 years old.
> I'm a consumer and all in our club are consumers we got a shit load of really nice young prospects coming up EVERY ONE of the handlers made a big effort and did there there homework and asked for help from people that know the working lines and went to breeders that stacked the deck and didn't breed out of convenience.
> Howard my dog is a J litter "Jett" I had a pretty good idea what I was going to get. I gave him his name before he hit the ground.
> I'd stay away from Willie the know it all dog man lines.


Mike i think it really depends on who is breeding these dogs depends on it being a utility dog or not right? I mean look at the show line crapp that is out there that are getting their titles at mid-night trials with so called judges. I would not call that a utility dog. I know you already know this. 

There are breeders out there that are advertising "working breeding" or "top sport litter" that have 0 titles or proof that their dogs are working dogs. 

Problem is anyone can put up a web page and claim to breed whatever. The ugly truth is very few GSD breeders are breeding for the betterment of the breed. Those breeders who do care are very picky about who gets their dogs. A lot of breeders out there are money hungry people who really don't know what a working dog is. They buy the dogs already titled and breed the crap out of them.

I agree with you, and I think the key word is *"homework"*. It will take* a lot of home work* and * insider help *to find a good one.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Howard you really don't know until you get that dog from two lines that don't work well together. But at the same time all pups from that litter may not be junk. Only a small % of any litter will work anyway. Go figure, it's a crap shoot anyway you look at it.

Think of this too. What I consider a good working dog, someone else woul;d say it's junk because they can't handle a HIGH drive dog. They would find some reason to say the dog was junk or would make a great bar-b-q.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Shane Woodlief said:


> Mike i think it really depends on who is breeding these dogs depends on it being a utility dog or not right? I mean look at the show line crapp that is out there that are getting their titles at mid-night trials with so called judges. I would not call that a utility dog.  I know you already know this.
> 
> There are breeders out there that are advertising "working breeding" or "top sport litter" that have 0 titles or proof that their dogs are working dogs.
> 
> ...


Show line dog doesn't even matter the breed is split for all practical purposes and as far as I'm concerned. These dogs don't even resemble a German Shepherd more like a caricature or freak.


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## Shane Woodlief (Sep 9, 2009)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Show line dog doesn't even matter the breed is split for all practical purposes and as far as I'm concerned. These dogs don't even resemble a German Shepherd more like a caricature or freak.


I agree.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Howard,

It might be a better way to ask which breeders one would recommend. I'm not a breeder so can only point out the following:

http://www.rsv2000.de/de/194/Aktuelles+Zuchtgeschehen.html?sid=

Zuchthunde = Stud dogs

Unsere Züchter: Our breeders

Aktuelle Würfe: Current litters

If you sift through these and maybe look at their websites, you will see their pedigrees.

For instance, Körung Olek Maineiche - decoy Helmut Raiser:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rfrw8AbTqmc&feature=related

and some of his offspring at the Jugendsichtung (young dog testing):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMjZ_0ZLzZs&feature=related

I don't know the breeders mentioned, personally, but they are well known, serious breeders and if you look at the pedigrees, it will give you an idea.


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## Margaret Wheeler (May 29, 2010)

I'm with Gillian. To me it's a lot more about looking for what you want and less about learning what to avoid. Also, there's general principles that apply to finding a good working dog regardless of the work or breed.

When you are totally new to the work and breaking in it's tough, but not impossible to find a good dog. I think you have be willing to look patiently and carefully. I have a nice young dog, but only because I was lucky. I didn't do nearly enough legwork. 

To me, anybody who has had even one working dog and has seriously worked it has no excuse for getting a dog without looking long and hard for the right one regardless of whether you are looking for a puppy or an adult.

To me it makes the most sense to figure out what you and probably more importantly what the people in the breed who know more than you like in a dog and what they breed for. Then you hope that they will be generous enough with their time to share their knowledge with you and then to guide you towards breedings they like. If you get a few of the top breeders and handlers telling you that they like a particular breeder and their dogs, you know you are on the right track, right?

Then if you start to like a particular breeding that most people agree is a goodun then you really should go and see the parents work and compete. The more stringent the test the better. 

If you do all that and still really like a dog then it's time to visit the breeders kennel and have a sit down about things that one might want to avoid that have shown up in the bloodlines. Every kennel has stuff behind their dogs that they wish wasn't there, what matters is what they have done to avoid it showing up in litters once they know about it. In fact one sure way to know that you should look elsewhere is somebody who can't or won't talk to you at length about issues in their bloodlines.

Oh and I think repeat breedings are the shiz. If a good breeder is repeating a breeding on a top dog, and you can get a crack at a pup from a repeat, somebody up there likes you. One thing that is super nice about GSDs is that they generally have big litters so it's possible for even little fish to get a nice pup from a good repeat breeding.

Oh and last but not least. There's no such thing as a bargain. Especially in dogs.

oops! One thing that Bob Solimini told me that really hit home (this is probably a little less true of GSD's because they are so homogeneous) is that if you are really serious you might consider laying out the money on a started dog. That way you have even more confidence that all the resources you will be pouring into it will pay off in the end.


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## Margaret Wheeler (May 29, 2010)

http://www.vangoghkennels.com/G%20litter.htm

One pup left in this breeding. I think that most people around would tell you that Claudia is a great resource as far as working GSDs here in New England.


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## Aamer Sachedina (May 6, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I don't know the breeders mentioned, personally, but they are well known, serious breeders and if you look at the pedigrees, it will give you an idea.


Thanks for posting. I really liked Olek and his puppies.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Shane Woodlief said:


> Howard unfortunately I don't think that you are going to get anyone to go on the record and answer your question. I am not being a jerk here. I wish those who knew the answers to the questions your asking would answer and save people a lot of time and money.
> 
> Here is what a friend and 4x world competitor told me that " a litter of 8 to 10 Only 2 at the very max 3 will be good dogs". He is an avid gsd guy. He raised both his world dogs from pups. Between his first world competitor and his current one that is 6 yrs old he went through i think 10 dogs.
> 
> So I agree that it is not so much about lines as it is about the pup in front of you.


Shane I agree to a point and you are correct, most will not call out trash! Me...I can do it and stand by it as my opinion...

A well bred litter should not be filled with junk, and there should be lines which are WELL RESPECTED for work and well addressed as "stay aways." You can't take chicken shit and make chicken salad! 
For those who do, PLEASE don't give me an invite!

Back to look'n!


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Jerry Lyda said:


> Howard you really don't know until you get that dog from two lines that don't work well together. But at the same time all pups from that litter may not be junk. Only a small % of any litter will work anyway. Go figure, it's a crap shoot anyway you look at it.
> 
> Think of this too. What I consider a good working dog, someone else woul;d say it's junk because they can't handle a HIGH drive dog. They would find some reason to say the dog was junk or would make a great bar-b-q.


 Jerry you know by now I respect your word, and you are right, maybe I should ask, "Whose lines bust the ass off the rest?" Now, this slides the boys from the men!!!!


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Thanks Howard but I'm hardly ever right about anything, just ask my wife. LOL


That question is just as hard to answer as the first was. Damn Howard give us a break. ;o)


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Jerry Lyda said:


> Damn Howard give us a break. ;o)


 I did Jerry, *the Devil* stayed out of Georgia during that WDGathering! 
Now, back to looking for a G.R.I.T.S. to add to the Delaware package!!! ;-)


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> I did Jerry, *the Devil* stayed out of Georgia during that WDGathering!
> Now, back to looking for a G.R.I.T.S. to add to the Delaware package!!! ;-)


Why the G.R.I.T.S. and not the peanut butter?


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## Sue DiCero (Sep 2, 2006)

Aamer Sachedina said:


> Thanks for posting. I really liked Olek and his puppies.


So did we. We bred to him 2 years ago (1st in the US to do so) when he was a relative unknown. We liked what we saw and still do... Have a female from him..


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: (1st in the US to do so)

Was there a contest or something ?


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## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

Sue DiCero said:


> So did we. We bred to him 2 years ago (1st in the US to do so) when he was a relative unknown. We liked what we saw and still do... Have a female from him..


Hi Sue,

I'm just wondering how well you know the lines and his progeny? I have a couple of questions if you don't mind answering.

Thanks


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## Sue DiCero (Sep 2, 2006)

Jeff,

No. . 

But we bred to him prior to the BSP; we had been following him for awhile.

Then, after his work at the BSP, people starting looking at him. 

Goes back to people need to look around; there are a lot of good dogs out there. Do not focus on the in thing.... People questioned why we did not breed to a "name" dog - we want to breed to the dog and how there are/produce, not who they are.....


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## Sue DiCero (Sep 2, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> What GSD lines that are working should one stay away from and why?


Depends on the person(s) and experience. I know of someone that, since they do not like a breeder, will put down the lines of the breeders' dogs and try to back it up with no exposure or experience. Just a lot on internet chat and "experience"

Or visa versa.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

What does this dog produce ?? I am curious now since you have won the contest. LOL


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Sue DiCero said:


> Depends on the person(s) and experience. I know of someone that, since they do not like a breeder, will put down the lines of the breeders' dogs and try to back it up with no exposure or experience. Just a lot on internet chat and "experience"
> 
> Or visa versa.


 Yeah, but again what lines or kennels. Maybe this is too "tight" of a question. I don't like some lines but it doesn't mean those lines are wrong for others. Some folks don't like females, doesn't mean that the opp. sex can't work. 

Some breeds are better suited for for folks, just like the sex or age of the animals. Anyway....back to pounding keys and looking at some neat videos folks have passed my way. And to think some dogs can do THAT!8-[


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## Dan Long (Jan 10, 2008)

Howard I thought you liked those dogs from Yago's breeder, you are aways talking about how he's the real deal, surely they have dogs that would work for you if you wanted a GSD.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Sorry Kristen "mantle" is neither Swiss nor English!!

I meant saddle!! Although I didn't know it was called this when I wrote my post!! Sometimes I talk Swinglish.


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