# Scent specific and scent changes



## mel boschwitz

To those of you with scent specific dogs:

What kind of response do you typically see if you send a person out and while they are getting lost for you they lathe on the bug spray? Is your dog distracted by it or get confused by it in any way?

Watched a team member put out a simple problem for her area search dog last week. He is experienced non specific but beginning scent specific. The subject hid, then while waiting sprayed on a bunch of bug spray. It took a long time before the dog went over to the person, then came to handler (he is refind dog). (Also, there was no one else out there, but there was some cadaver out). To me it looked like dog was screwing around, because he could easily see the person but didnt even go check him out for a solid minute. The handler said it was because the dog was confused because the subject no longer smelled like the subject.

I set up a similar scenario tonite with my trailing hound. About halfway thru my subject sprayed on a bunch of bug spray. She marked the area. My dog was working at a light jog up to that point, slowed down slightly right at the marker, went about 10ft, did a quick negative circle downwind, then continued. She never stopped moving forward, and i never said a word or got involved. Then she continued the trail at her nice jog and strong ID at subject. 

Based on her reaction at the marker, I would say she noticed the bug spray, but I dont think it confused her.

Of course, my hound is far more experienced in scent specific than the area search dog is. 

I am sure others have had subjects put on bug spray. Any issues?


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## Nancy Jocoy

Honestly, it is something I had never thought about but all of our scent specific air scent dogs are started scent specific from day one.

I would think of it as any distracter when they are looking for a target odor but will bring it up in training. I know people have done things to mask scent that have not had much effect (like those hunting clothes)


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## Tom Connors

You have to figure people you are looking for will have used perfume, bug spray, etc so it is a great idea to experience it in training first.


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## Sarah Platts

I"ve never had any bug spray issues with any of the dogs I've trained and handled in mantrailing (4 and counting) and these dogs were also trained for scent specific area searches. 

If the handler feels that the bug spray is creating this scenting issue then this is an area she needs to work on. And I would start incorporating other distracting odors such as perfumes, smoke odor, etc.

As far as no longer smelling like the subject, I would have to question that. The human is still putting out human smell. There really isn't any uncontaminated human scent. It's human scent PLUS whatever. Whatever dyes, perfumes, foods, and chemicals they bathe with, wash their clothes in, slather all over their bodies, or eat, smoke, medications, etc.


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## mel boschwitz

Sarah,
I agree with you and felt the handler was using this as a "cop out" because her dog did not perform as well that day. I save my scent articles and reuse them, and I am sure my subjects use different perfumes/sprays/colognes, etc then what was on that original scent article and it doesnt ever bother my dogs. 

Since the person "smelled different" when he stopped then he did when he started, and "smelled different" from his scent article, thats what confused the dog (according to the handler).

With my dogs, if they see someone close, they will want to get close enough to rule them out. It's a byproduct of generally finding a person who looks like a person ("maybe thats the one mom!") ( yes, I do lots of hidden finds). Since her dog completely blew off the person for awhile, that to me supports my "goofing off" theory.


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## julie allen

Was the cadaver material close enough to deter the dog? Some really don't like the smell and will try to avoid it. Just a thought.


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## Sarah Platts

mel boschwitz said:


> Sarah,
> I agree with you and felt the handler was using this as a "cop out" because her dog did not perform as well that day. I save my scent articles and reuse them, and I am sure my subjects use different perfumes/sprays/colognes, etc then what was on that original scent article and it doesnt ever bother my dogs.
> 
> Since the person "smelled different" when he stopped then he did when he started, and "smelled different" from his scent article, thats what confused the dog (according to the handler).
> 
> With my dogs, if they see someone close, they will want to get close enough to rule them out. It's a byproduct of generally finding a person who looks like a person ("maybe thats the one mom!") ( yes, I do lots of hidden finds). Since her dog completely blew off the person for awhile, that to me supports my "goofing off" theory.


If you want to test your theory then try it over the next training or two. If this dog has never had an aversion to approaching this person in the past then it could be questioned why this time and not the others? I'm not saying the dog wasn't farting around but you do try and rule out unknown problems. If this dog has never had this problem before then try it again with a another subject that the dog has never had a problem with. Try and recreate the original circumstances including the cadaver set-up. Slip that runner a can of the questioned bug spray and tell them when to apply it. Do not mention this to the handler but take on the role of observer and see what happens. *If* the dog has no problem approaching the subject then re-set up the problem with the original subject, run it again. *If* the dog won't approach the subject then you know it's not the bug spray. It's at this point I would have a discussion with the handler.

I also use and re-use my scent articles as well as using dis-similar aged components (scent article is not of the same age as the trail - collected weeks or even months earlier; or older aged trail and fresh scent article) and my experiences are the same as yours. You have experience as a trailing dog handler that the general airscent handler does not. You know and understand human scent more. So with regards to the handler, I'm not sure it's so much of making excuses but lack of knowledge and understanding about scent specific work.


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## Nancy Jocoy

Another question is what kind of scent specific introduction has she had with the dog and how much has she done with a scent article? 

Most of our team dogs can work with or without and all those things like bug spray and possible cadaver hides are "out there" 

The only real issues I have seen with cadaver has been with real live find dogs on real searches where they would get close to the actual victim who had died, but not go in 

...but the same dogs typically have either no respsonse or mild interest to HR training aids that have been set out. Honestly, decomp (animal) is all over the woods so I don't think most dogs really have any issue with training aids. Maybe some do and I have not seen it but I have seen the issue first hand with live find dogs acting strange near a recently deceased person.


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## Bob Scott

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Another question is what kind of scent specific introduction has she had with the dog and how much has she done with a scent article?
> 
> Most of our team dogs can work with or without and all those things like bug spray and possible cadaver hides are "out there"
> 
> The only real issues I have seen with cadaver has been with real live find dogs on real searches where they would get close to the actual victim who had died, but not go in
> 
> ...but the same dogs typically have either no respsonse or mild interest to HR training aids that have been set out. Honestly, decomp (animal) is all over the woods so I don't think most dogs really have any issue with training aids. Maybe some do and I have not seen it but I have seen the issue first hand with live find dogs acting strange near a recently deceased person.


The first dog (Aussie) I trained for cadaver wouldn't go near a full body but you certainly could tell when she was close to it. Almost as good as an indication. I washed her out. It just seemed to stressful on her.


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## Nancy Jocoy

I think that was a wise decision. Grim's first experience ... I had to throw the ball before he landed on top of it. Beau was going to get his first full body decomp exposure next weekend but my mother is not doing well at all so I am going to have to cancel out. 

But a lot of dogs show no aversion to small training aids then are cautious about whole bodies. Kind of makes sense. a large amount of remains is a smorgasboard to critters in the woods so it is can be a dicey proposition to move in rapidly.


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## Jim Delbridge

Over the years, I've come to this conclusion on the "whole body issue". If you only train the dog on small scent sources then it may have issues with the higher diffusion rate. Diffusion rate is directly related to area of diffusable material, i.e. bones tend to be easier than teeth because there is a larger surface area.
So, most people that train in cadaver tend to use pieces of placenta or blood. Having worked way more than my fair share of decomposed bodies, blood is a minor component. Usually the fatty materials create the largest scent sources. Amonia tends to be a prevalent odor that I pick up with my nose. A lot of cadaver dog handlers never get adipose tissue to train with either in solid form or decomposed form. My attitude has always been that the major body components need to be introduced to the dog in as many windows of decomposition as possible. That means muscle, organ, adipose, bone, neural tissue, and blood. I hedge my bet by making a paste like material with the liquid forms using skin/hair material from electric razors. Before one of the experts went on a religious jihad against hair having no scent component, I'd been using it to help my sources last longer as aid to capture the liquids. Only later did I learn that human hair is now routinely used for oil slicks as it captures oils very efficiently.

So, the end to all this is that the only issue I've ever had with any of my dogs on whole bodies is if I ask them to target a specific site. I've had to do this three times in 18 years for law enforcement that wanted to see a target. Each time I was rewarded with a look from my dog that I was a complete moron as surely I could see the whole body. I've never had a dog stop feet or yards away from a whole body like the drug model suggests. I did see some narc dogs that were cross-training in cadaver (against my objections) stop 40 feet away from a source that was high in amonia due to 2-months mummification. They wanted to see my dog work it. He basically climbed the up 20 feet over the downed tree and to the source and indicated. This was his first time working the same specific source, BUT he had worked that type of source many times before.
When I get placentas from mid-wives, they tend to be in absorbant pads to catch the blood. I repackage the placentas for better storage. I take the pads out into the woods and lay them all out creating a huge blood source. None of our dogs balk at going into the source.

While only working small sources is indeed an issue, I think many cadaver dog teams fool themselves by working primarily placentas and blood in near fresh states. Our goal must always be to introduce the dogs to as many variations in decomposition of human remains as possible from "tears to your eyes stinky" to bone dust in the sand from 3,000 year old digs.

Just my opinion,

Jim Delbridge


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## Tom Connors

Back in the day, we used to use multi sources hidden in old clothes (jeans, jacket, hat) laid out to look like a body. Some dogs shrank back, some didn't exhibit any different behavior. If you look at your search log, the types of searches you have been on will help dictate what to prepare for.


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## Joanne Lincoln

Bug spray is a distraction that a dog will learn to work through, HOWEVER, no need to complicate a new scenario for a dog new to scent specific trailing. You need to make sure you have a clear line of communication with helpers so they are not throwing your dog curve balls without you knowing. Always set the dog up for success with new tasks (esp. for young dogs) you don't want to sour them on the activity.


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## Joanne Lincoln

mel boschwitz said:


> Sarah,
> I agree with you and felt the handler was using this as a "cop out" because her dog did not perform as well that day. I save my scent articles and reuse them, and I am sure my subjects use different perfumes/sprays/colognes, etc then what was on that original scent article and it doesnt ever bother my dogs.
> 
> Since the person "smelled different" when he stopped then he did when he started, and "smelled different" from his scent article, thats what confused the dog (according to the handler).
> 
> With my dogs, if they see someone close, they will want to get close enough to rule them out. It's a byproduct of generally finding a person who looks like a person ("maybe thats the one mom!") ( yes, I do lots of hidden finds). Since her dog completely blew off the person for awhile, that to me supports my "goofing off" theory.



Well said. Very good point!


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## mel boschwitz

Jim,
I enjoy your HR posts. Always learn something.

I have only gotten the chance to work my HR hound on bone a few times. And never any buried. (Hes done other buried stuff tho). Earlier this week had an opportunity to work a previously unknown grave site (possible cold case). Discovered by a homeowner putting in new septic line. He had only found a few bones. I let my dog work the area and he indicated a few feet away from where those bones had been found. They found more bones the next morning less than a foot away from where he indicated, about 2 feet down.

I was very happy with my dog, especially considering he has only worked bone a few times ( anyone have extra??!). He wasn't spot on, but all things considered pretty close. And I wasnt allowed to prep the sight either. 

The bones are at least 20yrs old.

Mostly I have blood, muscle, brain and cerebral spinal fluid (mixed with blood and brain). A few teeth. Does teeth count as bone?


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## Nancy Jocoy

I guess we are deviating from the original thread but its yours.

I trained my current dog more with teeth and bone in the early stages than with decomp. I like the focus with which he works. Keeps his head much closer to the ground when he scans then when we trained other dogs primarily on decomp. 

He can work decomp too. I do have one wicked hide which is anaerobic decomp of placenta. The jar actually is labeled "wicked". I use it sometimes.

I love to train with vertebrae [these are old ones from skulls unlimited and bone room-skulls unlimited ones are old and yellow and pitted] because the hole for the spinal cord is quite handy for anchoring them or for picking them up with a stick and slinging them as far as you can. Great way to set up a cadaver hide without touching the source or disturbing the area.


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## mel boschwitz

Yes Nancy, mine, mine! Lol

Its a good direction to go in.. lol

So are the bones from the boneroom ok to work with? I would think they would be so sterile as to be about useless?

If teeth are a decent add in as bone then I guess he has done buried bone too.


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## Sarah Platts

mel boschwitz said:


> Yes Nancy, mine, mine! Lol
> 
> Its a good direction to go in.. lol
> 
> So are the bones from the boneroom ok to work with? I would think they would be so sterile as to be about useless?
> 
> If teeth are a decent add in as bone then I guess he has done buried bone too.


I've never had a problem with them. I just got back from an HRD workshop where the fresh "meaty" bones we were using came smelling sorta antiseptic. We passed it around trying to figure out what was on it (This was not a BoneRoom purchase). I thought it smelt like Listerine but found out it was actually Vick's Vapor Rub. The company put it on to cut the smell but it didn't stop the dogs. Yes, we got a few odd looks from the dogs but it didn't stop them. The way we kinda look at it is that extraneous smells are part of life. Target Smell PLUS whatever. Be that perfume, bug spray, dog piss, lots of loose humans wandering around, or whatever. I think that I and my dog need to be able to handle these curve balls of life. So I don't try to make excuses, I make it a teaching opportunity. And if it uncovers a hole in our education, Great. 'Cause it gives me an opportunity to fix it. ;-)


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## mel boschwitz

Where else to buy bone aside from the boneroom?


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## Sarah Platts

mel boschwitz said:


> Where else to buy bone aside from the boneroom?


Research or anatomical donation facilities.


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## mel boschwitz

Sarah Platts said:


> Research or anatomical donation facilities.


And SAR teams can get source from them? Anyone know of any in Texas? I've just been scrounging what I can from scenes when we release them. Lol..


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## Jim Delbridge

Skulls Unlimited and The Bone Room are the two big U.S. Suppliers of bone. Even if they are used university samples, you can treat them for your needs. The main thing is to rid them of live human oils from handling which can be leached out with water in the sun in a dark pyrex container over days.

Teeth are easier to get if you can link up with an oral surgeon. Over the years I had one surgeon that would save the nice teeth for dentistry students to practice on and save the nasty teeth for me. He always apologized at their condition while I would get excited, the worse condition the better. Teeth tend to come in very handy for targeting training and to train handlers to stop looking for the scent source. When I was first starting out, we quickly discovered that wet teeth were a good source to start dogs on. 

If you need to make a "fresh bone" with a cleaned bone, you can rub the bone down with adipose tissue. At first the dog will be targeting primarily the adipose tissue. Over time, the oils weaken and the dog is working a source that becomes primarily bone with residual adipose scent. Bone tends to be like sponge, so you always have to be careful what you store them around. I know one handler that kept a large collection of animal bones for proofing. I happened to visit her storage site and noted she kept all these animal bones right next to her human remains freezer. I asked her if the dogs on her team had to be routinely proofed on animal over and over..... the bones were soaking up the human remains scent. 

Something most handlers don't think through is that the longer human remains rest in the ground, the more the remains scent has diffused into the soil. Over years most of the tissue scent migrates away with the water table, but the bones remain and the scent remains in the soil. If it's a grave, the porosity and permeability of the surrounding compressed soil will tend to keep the skeletal scent close and/or in the grave. So, basically, the handler then needs to know the conditions where the scent will rise out of the soil for best time to work. 

If you can locate a jewish cemetery in your area, orthodox jews don't embalm. Get permission and you have graves to practice on with the vintages of the remains identified for you on the headstones. Course, be careful as graves get moved, headstones get placed with no bodies (or mismarked after the fact). It's best to go with an experienced buried/historic buried dog team to locate good training graves for you dogs. GPS the sites or photograph them with landmarks and you have training aids for years afterwards that you can work once every couple of years.

Jim


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## Nancy Jocoy

I think most pre civil war graves - people were not embalmed and definitely not the slave graves. There are some we have trained on that are unmarked and have been verified with GPR...There is a seminar every fall in Virginia as well with actual slave graves. The thing with graves that first amazed me with the old graves is the size of the scent pool is pretty large.

I also had some small bones (rib shards-I wanted something not obviously human) that I secured on a piece of private property for about a year. They started to break down a little and it was very interesting how the scent pool seemed to get bigger. It was still low to the ground but we started with the dog almost having to walk right over them to being about 10-15 feet away, even more in one instance after a snow


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## julie allen

All of my source (and I have a lot) has come from the pathology department at a local hospital. They save everything from placentas to leg amputations. Tissue, bone, and combinations. Since the patients aren't deceased its easier with the legalities. Plus in TN you can posses body parts just not an entire body.
Oral surgeons are good supply for teeth. Funeral homes that do embalming may give you large amounts of blood.

I don't keep everything sterile or frozen. I set up a mini body farm and let it be as real as possible. Some buried, some left in the sun, some wrapped in plastic, carpet, underwater, any scenario I can think of.

The only issue we had with a whole body, Greta expected it to get up and play her first to actual finds. But no issue with the scent itself. 

I agree Jim, seems like the ones trained on small source are overwhelmed with large finds or entire bodies.


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## Nancy Jocoy

julie allen said:


> I agree Jim, seems like the ones trained on small source are overwhelmed with large finds or entire bodies.


Fortunately, it seems they only need a few experiences with this to catalogue it and figure out how to work it out. I think when life gets back to normal here, I need to take a road trip to the great state of TN and work some of your problems.  and see that cute little smiley faced critter


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## julie allen

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Fortunately, it seems they only need a few experiences with this to catalogue it and figure out how to work it out. I think when life gets back to normal here, I need to take a road trip to the great state of TN and work some of your problems.  and see that cute little smiley faced critter


Anytime! Let me know a month or so in advance I can try to get uou some good items. 
We are having a seminar in June , head on down!


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## Nancy Jocoy

I will get in touch. Probably later. I am wiped out from the WCU seminar fees and they are going to refund my fees by applying it to the next advanced seminar (may be next year) so I will want to get out towards the end of the summer, assuming by then, my mother will have passed given what is going on now. Of course.........you just never know........we were told 2-3 weeks two months ago....

At this point I don't even know......and am not doing much planning. I figure we only get "one chance" to go through t his with her.

Sounds like a good seminar though.


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## julie allen

Sorry about your mom Nancy. You let me know anytime your up to travel.


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## Sarah Platts

mel boschwitz said:


> And SAR teams can get source from them? Anyone know of any in Texas? I've just been scrounging what I can from scenes when we release them. Lol..


You really need to get up with Ben Alexander in your state (Texas). You can google his name - he's well known in the community. There is a bill right now going through the legislature that will allow HRD handlers to receive material from the texas anatomical group that runs the body donations in your state. However, there is some verbage in the bill that alot of handlers are questioning because it appears to favor or limit the donations to a specific group when the original intent was to help everyone who does the work. 

The bill number has changed from SB1199 to SB1011 but it's still in committee so I urge you go get involved and make your voice heard so that a few don't shut out the rest. You need to be proactive with this and even if things "appear" right I would still get heard and follow it intensly because things have a way of changing at the last minute because either they think no one knows or no one cares. Just make sure it's not the second.


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## Joby Becker

Sarah Platts said:


> However, there is some verbage in the bill that alot of handlers are questioning because it appears to favor or limit the donations to a specific group when the original intent was to help everyone who does the work.
> 
> The bill number has changed from SB1199 to SB1011 but it's still in committee so I urge you go get involved and make your voice heard so that a few don't shut out the rest. You need to be proactive with this and even if things "appear" right I would still get heard and follow it intensly because things have a way of changing at the last minute because either they think no one knows or no one cares. Just make sure it's not the second.


this is shameful but happens all over, in all types of things... Keep on top of stuff in your areas, even in your local governments people...


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