# assessing a GSD for sport



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

I know about some working dog evaluation tests, but they are for puppies (so far). Can anyone point me to an eval for a GSD from showline parents that might tell me something about the dog's suitability for Schutzhund?

I do know a helper who works with police dogs, and he could come with me, but he says up front that he knows almost nothing about Sch, and I know less than that. I'd like something to read first. I've been following Leerburg discussions for about 9 months now, and asking a few questions here, and watching the great training video clips, but all these dogs have been chosen as pups.

I'm talking about an 18-month-old who has had nothing but obedience.

Is is a case of, if I have to ask this, then I don't know enough to go look?

I can stand the truth!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I know about some working dog evaluation tests, but they are for puppies (so far). Can anyone point me to an eval for a GSD from showline parents that might tell me something about the dog's suitability for Schutzhund?
> 
> I do know a helper who works with police dogs, and he could come with me, but he says up front that he knows almost nothing about Sch, and I know less than that. I'd like something to read first. I've been following Leerburg discussions for about 9 months now, and asking a few questions here, and watching the great training video clips, but all these dogs have been chosen as pups.
> 
> ...


BTW, last September I had a similar chance, and it was a puppy, but my friend the helper suggested that I was not enough aware of how much was involved in special training.. He was correct, too. Now I am much more aware, and he has agreed to lend whatever guidance he can in the decision about the dog.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

IMHO, I think, in order to be a good sport dog,you need strong prey. Not so much with a dog for serious work. Then you need to see what, if any defence and natural aggression the dog has. It may or may not be ready at 18 months to test for this. If not, you could ruin the dog. Under a little pressure, does the dog stand and bark? Run behind the handler? Are the hackles up? that often signifies fear in the dog. Not always. 
Reading a dogs prey, defence, fight, etc needs a lot of expierience. A misread can, at best mess up a dog. At worst, could create a serious monster. 
Hopefull, some of the more informed folks here can give you better answers. :wink:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> IMHO, I think, in order to be a good sport dog,you need strong prey. Not so much with a dog for serious work. Then you need to see what, if any defence and natural aggression the dog has. It may or may not be ready at 18 months to test for this. If not, you could ruin the dog. Under a little pressure, does the dog stand and bark? Run behind the handler? Are the hackles up? that often signifies fear in the dog. Not always.
> Reading a dogs prey, defence, fight, etc needs a lot of expierience. A misread can, at best mess up a dog. At worst, could create a serious monster.
> Hopefull, some of the more informed folks here can give you better answers. :wink:


This is exactly what I'm asking for. Thanks! 

Anyone else?


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Hi Connie

You know how new I am, but I really like the criteria that was in Schutzhund: Theory and Training Methods. I'm in Boston right now so I don't have it in front of me. It seemed quite clear and in addition to Bob's stuff seemed to stress retrieving (indicative of willingness to please) and tendencies to get its nose on the ground.

That's what I remember, this probably sounds dumb, but the more I read about it and the more I \"see\" it in my own dog and other dogs I'm pretty high on retrieval as indicative of overall willingness to please in sport. You probably already know this!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Woody Taylor said:


> Hi Connie...You know how new I am, but I really like the criteria that was in Schutzhund: Theory and Training Methods. I'm in Boston right now so I don't have it in front of me. It seemed quite clear and in addition to Bob's stuff seemed to stress retrieving (indicative of willingness to please) and tendencies to get its nose on the ground....That's what I remember, this probably sounds dumb, but the more I read about it and the more I \"see\" it in my own dog and other dogs I'm pretty high on retrieval as indicative of overall willingness to please in sport. You probably already know this!


No, Woody, this too is EXACTLY what I am asking for. Thank you!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Excellent point Woody! Even with AKC competition dogs, the willingness to retrieve is a huge indicator of the dogs willingness to work with a human as a partner.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

how close are you to sacramento connie?


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## Hil Harrison (Mar 29, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> IMHO, I think, in order to be a good sport dog,you need strong prey. Not so much with a dog for serious work. Then you need to see what, if any defence and natural aggression the dog has. It may or may not be ready at 18 months to test for this. If not, you could ruin the dog. Under a little pressure, does the dog stand and bark? Run behind the handler? Are the hackles up? that often signifies fear in the dog. Not always.
> Reading a dogs prey, defence, fight, etc needs a lot of expierience. A misread can, at best mess up a dog. At worst, could create a serious monster.
> Hopefull, some of the more informed folks here can give you better answers. :wink:


Connie, I agree with Bob on this one. 

Generally, a lot of dogs ( not all I must add) from showlines just don't have the strong prey drive that you would need for Schutzund. We had a GSD(2 in fact) at the club who were half workingline half showline. Tracking and OB was good but when it came down to the bite work they were only working on defence drive. It would drive the decoy's nuts trying to stimulate the dog. His bite was weak and it did'nt seem to interest him at all. And that was a half/half dog.

A friend of mine is a breeder of GSD, and she says a lot of the dogs get maybe a SchI title but don't look for anything above that. If you do get it you have been lucky.

I think the most important thing would be to look at the prey drive in the dog. 
Is this a dog you are thinking of buying? or do you have him already?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

QUOTE: I think the most important thing would be to look at the prey drive in the dog. 
Is this a dog you are thinking of buying? or do you have him already? END

Hi is available for sale in two weeks. He is 18 months old. I can look at him (because it will be convenient to us all) in 10 days. 

I REALLY appreciate all this input........I have had all rescues/adopteds.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Tim Martens said:


> how close are you to sacramento connie?


FAR!

I'm on the Monterey Bay (Santa Cruz).


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Hil Harrison said:


> Bob Scott said:
> 
> 
> > IMHO, I think, in order to be a good sport dog,you need strong prey. Not so much with a dog for serious work. Then you need to see what, if any defence and natural aggression the dog has. It may or may not be ready at 18 months to test for this. If not, you could ruin the dog. Under a little pressure, does the dog stand and bark? Run behind the handler? Are the hackles up? that often signifies fear in the dog. Not always.
> ...


Suppose the dog is not very prey-drivey or retrievey? Could it still be fun for the dog to do SchH training (not for competition)?


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## Hil Harrison (Mar 29, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Hil Harrison said:
> 
> 
> > Bob Scott said:
> ...


He might enjoy it but I think you might go spare trying to motivate him. Most of the training is to do with prey drive and retrieving. If hes lacking some prey drive see when your looking at him what you can motivate him with for example ball or tug. If hes not interested you could I suppose try him out with tracking. Problem is I have seen SCH dogs who lacked in drive with owners still trying to motivate them. They would leave the training each time very dissapointed. I think you need a good look at him and take someone with you for a second opinion, then do a couple of days thinking about what you have seen, and what you could do with him qua training.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Connie, the original purpose of Schutzhund was to test the character of adult dogs. It eventually evolved into a sport where prey drive became the big easy for high scoring dogs. Previous to this, I suspect that, across the board, the dogs were much more serious compaired to the \"average\" sport dog today. 
In that regard, the dogs that could be trained in Schutzhund, would be more apt to be trained in defence, or, occasionally a dog with true fight drive. The dogs that are trained in defence only, are usually doing so as a survival technique. I doubt that's much fun for the dog. 
The rare dog with true fight drive, does so out of total confidence, and probably enjoys the fight. 
This is all just MY personel feelings. I'd love to heard from someone like David Frost, who has had MEGA expierience with serious dogs.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

\"fight drive\"....ugh....


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

:lol: :lol: I do understand where your comming from Tim. I just use the term in general. My own personel thoughts are that fight is a totally confident, aggression based dog, as opposed to a totally defence based dog. 
The arguement of what is, or what isn't, is a moot point by now.  :wink:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Connie, the original purpose of Schutzhund was to test the character of adult dogs. It eventually evolved into a sport where prey drive became the big easy for high scoring dogs. Previous to this, I suspect that, across the board, the dogs were much more serious compaired to the \"average\" sport dog today.
> In that regard, the dogs that could be trained in Schutzhund, would be more apt to be trained in defence, or, occasionally a dog with true fight drive. The dogs that are trained in defence only, are usually doing so as a survival technique. I doubt that's much fun for the dog.
> The rare dog with true fight drive, does so out of total confidence, and probably enjoys the fight.
> This is all just MY personel feelings. I'd love to heard from someone like David Frost, who has had MEGA expierience with serious dogs.


OK. I getcha. I really do appreciate all this input.


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## Julia Tompson (Mar 27, 2006)

Woody Taylor said:


> Hi Connie
> 
> You know how new I am, but I really like the criteria that was in Schutzhund: Theory and Training Methods....


I just ordered this book base on your recommendation... I can't wait to read it. :lol: 

I still have soooooooo much to learn about true prey and fight drive and everything that goes into the sport of schutzhund, but I will learn and I am so glad this forum exists for clarification and expansion of ideas and theories . :?

I also got the The New Knowledge of Dog Behavior, by Clarence Pfaffenberger and Advanced Schutzhund, by Ivan Balabanov. If anyone has read these books I would love to hear how you liked them and whether they are useful and true teachings of the sport of Schutzhund.


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Hey, don't take my advice!!! :roll:  I'm new and I just read a lot of books. All theory, no practice.

It's a good book but from what I understand from others reviews as well as the text itself (compared with you all on forums like this) it's basically (I am writing this from memory, I don't have it with me):

1. Overview of Schutzhund and Schutzhund breeds, Schutzhund history
2. Dog selection
3. Sections on obedience, tracking, protection...really nice \"theory of...\" on each of these, and each Schutzhund objective and rule broken down and very detailed

There is a lot of specific instruction on individual dog training but I don't think it's detailed enough for this forum's needs (I remember the \"send away\" section being pretty much \"Send Away is a pain in the ass to train!). But it's got nice photos, nice commentary by the two authors (one is a motivation then cumpulsion advocate, the other is motivation 99% of the time), nice diagrams. I like it, it seemed as though they worked very hard to put out an objective point of view on the sport.


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## Julia Tompson (Mar 27, 2006)

Woody Everything has it's value, purpose and place and at this point my mind is open to everything and attached to nothing. I am sure between the books... this forum and the local club... it will all eventfully come together for all of us. I hope one day I am the giver of advice instead of the pain in the ass that asks so many dumb questions. :? 

I don't believe there is only one absolute and correct way of training a dog. My main problem right now is finding a routine that works and is comfortable and makes sense for me and my dogs. I am still so clumsy and awkward. I feel like my puppies stumbling around in the dark.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

The book you are talking about is a rewrite from a book that was published in 1978. They are almost exactly the same, and thus pretty archaic. I do see way too many Sch clubs that train that way, and I just can't watch. Kinda like fight drive discussions.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Connie, you asked whether or not it would still be fun with showline dog. That really depends, because if the dog doesn't have enough prey drive, the dog will perhaps just be bored, which could end up being much more frustrating then fun!!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> Connie, you asked whether or not it would still be fun with showline dog. That really depends, because if the dog doesn't have enough prey drive, the dog will perhaps just be bored, which could end up being much more frustrating then fun!!


Yes, now I think I get that.

Is love of retrieving the same as prey drive? Because I have a dog already who has a gigundoid food drive and also loves to retrieve. I see that he would be happy to have some kind of advanced training beyond obedience. Trouble is, he's the Pug, not the GSD!

Well, at least I now have the rudiments of how to address the questions with the helper who will accompany me to look at the available 18-month-old.


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2006)

\"...trouble is he's the Pug, not the GSD.\" :lol: 

I know just how you feel, Connie. My Chi literally mauls anyone (human or animal) who attemps to harm me, and my Peke is violent with a tug and loves any excuse to bite. My GSD, OTOH, needs work :lol: .


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jenni Williams said:


> \"...trouble is he's the Pug, not the GSD.\" :lol:
> 
> I know just how you feel, Connie. My Chi literally mauls anyone (human or animal) who attemps to harm me, and my Peke is violent with a tug and loves any excuse to bite. My GSD, OTOH, needs work :lol: .


Well, Leo is a Welcome Wagon dog. He doesn't even bark. (Literally. I've heard him bark maybe three times in 1-1/2 years, and never in warning.)

But he loves to retrieve and he loves food. The food drive makes him easily trained, now that OED Bob has informed me of the huge error in the Pug world around harnesses when training. (They have big necks and little heads and can slide backwards out of a flat collar, so they \"come with\" harnesses. But I, new to Pugness, was deluded into believing they had to be trained with the harness on, too. WRONG.) 

Now that he wears a flat collar, his training has soared! 

The ever-pleasing older GSD just wants to have walks and do Ob, and that's fine.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

*assessing for sport*

Thanks to all the posts and the PMs, I think I now have some idea of what I will be looking for and asking the accompanying helper on Friday.

It's pretty interesting what a whole 'nother world it is when you start talking SchH, even after years of dogs and lots of training.


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> The book you are talking about is a rewrite from a book that was published in 1978. They are almost exactly the same, and thus pretty archaic. I do see way too many Sch clubs that train that way, and I just can't watch. Kinda like fight drive discussions.


I think it's a good book and it's well-written and well-presented. It has a good ear and appreciation for history, objectivity (with honesty) about lots of breeds, and stresses pleasure for the dog and the human involved...I have not read the 1978 version from Susan Barwig (who co-wrote this one), but they acknowledge that this book is an extension of that (although an improvement, as well). I like any book that gives me different options for interaction with my dog that also makes me appreciate my dog and our relationship more. I think the book has great illustrations...one guy is working what I think is a German Wirehaired (I am probably wrong but I have no idea what else it is), another a Cheasapeake Bay retriever, some Tervurens, Rotts, etc. It is archaic in the sense that not every picture is one of a Malinois tearing someone's head off. I think these authors still believe that GSDs are not poodles. I think it's a very thoughtful book.

Connie, forgot to post this, these are their considerations for a very promising Schutzhund dog...


> 1. ...show both interest in searching for its handler and a tendency to immediately use its nose in order to do so
> 
> 2. be very interested in playing with or retrieving objects thrown for it
> 
> ...


Just posting it, thought you would find it informative/interesting.[/quote]


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Thank you. That is a good list......one even I understand!!


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

The only dumb question is the question NOT asked.


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## Martin Espericueta (Apr 1, 2006)

*Bump - did you get him?*

Sorry if I've missed this somewhere else, but Connie, did you end up with
the dog?

I'm trying to remember if I read that you did/didn't somewhere here on the
forum


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

*Re: Bump - did you get him?*



Martin Espericueta said:


> Sorry if I've missed this somewhere else, but Connie, did you end up with the dog?......


No, I didnt end up with the 18-month-old dog, who wasnt SchH material, per the helper who accompanied me.

I have started SchH training, though, along with other members of our training club. This is teaching me more than it is my GSD, but that's fine with me.
http://www.workingdogforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?p=14724&highlight=#14724


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