# e-collar in training vs none at trial



## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

if this has been addressed before, just link the thread for me, ok?

if not, my question is: train w/e-collar, then trial without. assuming these are intelligent dogs (ie, collar-wise), how does one get the performance in trial w/o the e-collar?

i asked my sister's high-powered retriever-trainer this question last spring and got blown off (arrogant ****). 

i "get" the conditioning to the collar, but how does one, IDK, "uncondition" for a trial?


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

ann freier said:


> if this has been addressed before, just link the thread for me, ok?
> 
> if not, my question is: train w/e-collar, then trial without. assuming these are intelligent dogs (ie, collar-wise), how does one get the performance in trial w/o the e-collar?
> 
> ...


Anne

It's ok, I think Jeff Oehlsen is on holiday we can discuss it again????? no link necessary:grin: 

The idea is to train the dog, even with "strom" but so that the judge can't see the training efforts :-\" 
For me, this needs intelligence in order to use it so that the dog doesn't show issues. Even with "strom" you need to have a good relationship with your dog.

I have Raiser/Bellon's "Contact* CD but haven't looked at it properly. I've lived here for years but his German needs my full attention and even then I swim in between.

We were talking about this today and I know there are excellent results to be attained by using the e-collar for training. One comment that I have is that building up the pup in training doesn't need the e-collar in my opinion. I have no criticism of those who use it, however. But I think that if you can't develop a pup from 7-8 weeks to 9 months without prong or e-collar, what have you to seek in sport or otherwise?

As I say, I don't want to criticise, each has his or her cross to bear, but I wonder.

Looking forward to post from those who use "strom" for training.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

It is the same as with any other piece of equipment. If a dog is off leash trained why doesn't he run off when you drop the leash? Why does he come back when you call him? It is the expectation of something good comming from the handler. The device and/or method used to "correct" just adds a consiquence.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Have just seen that Jeff is around - mia culpa:grin:


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

What Kyle said!  It's the same with all training aids, you don't use them all the time. If a dog were only to perform when wearing any of them, then he isn't trained.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

I put my e-collar on every time my dog comes out. Doesn't mean I always use it. I have play sessions with it and take walks, so the dogs does not associate the collar with work only or obeying and not obeying. I can get the same % of success on the field with no collar on my dog, so I know he is not only performing out of fear of being shocked as so many seem to think. I laid all the foundation training on my dog without the e also, he was about 19 months before I started to use one on him.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

oh, jeff doesn't scare me!! he's really just a pansy....

anyway, due to the fact that i have never used an e-collar on one of my dogs, i'm just trying to get my old brain around this concept, so help me a LEETLE bit more, ok?

i eventually ended up putting Brix' prong on him at random times b/c he learned pretty quickly that when i put it on we were going to go out and have "fun", and he'd get way drivey. after a couple of weeks of putting on the prong and doing nothing, or maybe, someething, he was conditioned to it not necessarily being a sign that we were going training.

ok, but he always had the collar ON. i'm still not getting how one trains w/e-collar, then gets the performance at trial w/out it, unless in training you simply load the dog up w/3-4 collars on at the same time to prevent becoming collar-wise...

the light-bulb is still off!! pretend i'm in kindergarten if it helps 

am i "getting" it even tho i don't think i am?? ie, Brix and prong = dog and e-collar?


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Because if used as outlined by Michelle, the dog doesn't really get that it's the e-collar. It's not a question of the dog being smart or dumb. Many exercizes are taught without e-collar corrections, many times the dog wears the e-collar without corrections. Many times there is no e-collar on the dog, just like many times people don't have pinch collars or cookies. The e-collar can be used to speed up or sharpen up exercizes as well as to give a correction with no body language or from a distance. Many times the problem with corrections is how easily dogs read our most subtle "tells". So these "tells" become a command. No more "tell" with an e-collar. 

If you are asking if a dog can become "collar wise", most definetly, you have to be smarter than the dog when using training aids.


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## Ian Forbes (Oct 13, 2006)

The same way you train a dog using, balls, food, pinch collar etc. and don't use them at trial time.

The dog should work in the expectation that it will get a reward for complying with commands and correction/no reward for not complying. It should not have to be able to see the ball, smell the food, be wearing the collar etc.

Many peope seem to think that e-collars are some form of black magic and that normal learning theory does not apply.....


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Have only just seen this - you hit the nail on the head!

"Think" modus out "e-collar" modus on


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

If done correctly, the method you use (e-collar/pinch/food/toy) has nothing to do with on field "control". You still have to wean the dog off of the e-collar/pinch/food/toy. It's always about good training.


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## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Anne
> 
> It's ok, I think Jeff Oehlsen is on holiday we can discuss it again????? no link necessary:grin:
> 
> ...


Strom??? Use "strom" for training?? Is "strom" kinda like *****ng **** on the forum? Hey Moderators are you sure I can't use a fake name?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Steve, your secret is out now! Your the inventor of the "strom" collar. :grin:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> If done correctly, the method you use (e-collar/pinch/food/toy) has nothing to do with on field "control". You still have to wean the dog off of the e-collar/pinch/food/toy. It's always about good training.


And in fact, IMO, the above quote applies to the training for a companion or service or whatever dog exactly the same way.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

To many "dog trainers" in thew world that don't understand training OR dogs. :-o :-# :grin:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Oh yeah, you all answered that question so clearly. LOL


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Oh yeah, you all answered that question so clearly. LOL


Well, have at it. :lol:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

It's all a matter of convincing the dog that the e-collar/food/toy is still there. How many times have we seen handlers looking like third base coaches on the field. Some look like there swatting at a mosquito swarm. 
I want my dog to know that a reward is always ready. It's just a matter of extending the performance and connecting behaviours till the dog can do a whole routine. Doesn't matter the method. 
Having a dog that looks at you as a leader sure helps rather then a dog that looks at you as the controlling factor in it's behaviour. Even though we're still "controlling" the dog to a point with food trainng. Just not physically. :wink:


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

soooo--in the world (MY world) of having companion dogs, that alert when there's something "wrong" outside, and are required to have good manners in all other situations, really one needs only to create a bond with the dog in question, be fair in both rewards/corrections/pack structure, aand everything will be hunky-dory.

in a perfect world. all i know for certain is that both me and my dogs got along just fine w/a choke chain/flat collar and a long line, FOR YEARS. 

if experimenting w/prong collar on a well-bred, drivey GSD makes me a "dipshit". well, i guess i am. i've never learned a damned thing without trying and making mistakes. thank god my dog forgives me  

i do have to say, having been a spectator at numerous field-trials for labs, that the dogs do think for themselves and embarrass thier handlers (like--why swim when i can run around the edge of the pond quicker?) and these are dogs that are trained exclusively w/e-collars...

crap, jeff, i've forgotten the question that everyone else didn't answer to your satisfaction--have a go at getting us all back on track...


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

ann freier said:


> soooo--in the world (MY world) of having companion dogs, that alert when there's something "wrong" outside, and are required to have good manners in all other situations, really one needs only to create a bond with the dog in question, be fair in both rewards/corrections/pack structure, aand everything will be hunky-dory.
> 
> in a perfect world. all i know for certain is that both me and my dogs got along just fine w/a choke chain/flat collar and a long line, FOR YEARS.
> 
> ...


Any Lab that runs around a a pond instead of swimming should be "stimed" with a shot gun! That's just not a Lab. :wink:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

QUOTE : if experimenting w/prong collar on a well-bred, drivey GSD makes me a "dipshit". well, i guess i am. 


I am supposed to argue with this ? ? ? ? LOL As much information as there is out there, there is not much need to be "experimenting" with a pinch......or is there ???????


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

i don't care if you want to argue or not jeff. whatever..im not here to "argue", i'm here to learn.

if you don't "get" where i'm coming from, well, that's YOUR problem, not mine, as you are the "god-teacher" in dog training. as the be-all, end-all in training (at least in your own mind), how about some down-to-earth advice? for us dipshits? it would be appreciated, i'm sure...


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## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

ann freier said:


> if this has been addressed before, just link the thread for me, ok?
> 
> if not, my question is: train w/e-collar, then trial without. assuming these are intelligent dogs (ie, collar-wise), how does one get the performance in trial w/o the e-collar?
> 
> ...


Hey Ann, I have the prong or ecollar in my pocket and just like the reward coming out so can the collar, one for reward, one for correction.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

ann freier said:


> how about some down-to-earth advice? for us dipshits? it would be appreciated, i'm sure...


Good luck with that. Jeff doesn't give advice because he did once upon a time and it's our duty to go look up his royalties old threads , instead of him "waisting" his time re-explaining. Never mind that the whole point of a forum is to learn or teach. Sorry noobs, you should have been born the same year as father time. 

I can feel (a tad bit) for Jeff though. I too get sick of some of the same questions month after month, year after year but that may be when it's time to get your ass off the boards and go do something else, if all you can manage is to bash your own head and those of others. When what you post is no longer helpfull, you are no longer uselful to the board, may as well go stick yourself with some green juice, wander off onto the ice and feed the polar bears ( I hear they can use a free meal) or set off on a ship of fire (like a good old viking). How long has it been people, since we have read a fruitfull post from ole Jeffy? Note ( I said fruitfull NOT fruity)


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

i get sick of the "same old, same old" too. but then there's the NOT "same old", where some "old" might be helpful to us "noobies".

but god forbid that someone with experience give away his/her "training secrets" for free when they can make $$ from them.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Michelle, I have read your posts and seriously, you are still in the N00b catagory. Try not to forget that.

QUOTE: ann freieri don't care if you want to argue or not jeff. whatever..im not here to "argue", i'm here to learn.

Are you ????? And who is argueing with you sensitive pants ???? Not me, as I know that you will never use the information given anyway.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Jeff nice deflection techniques. The issue isn't whether or not I'm a newbie or not. 2 years is just a drop in the bucket I'm well aware. Is your point that I have nothing worth posting because I am new? I've been around long enough to know your posts are all the same regardless of which board. I used to like you because you speak your mind but day after day of the negativity just isn't normal. Speaking your mind and just tearing people down are 2 very differnt things. If your not here to share your wealth of knowledge, why are you here? 

Now do you have something to share relevant to the subject line or not? Commenting that e-collars are for retards doesn't cut it.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Michelle Kehoe said:


> Now do you have something to share relevant to the subject line or not? Commenting that e-collars are for retards doesn't cut it.


I'm thinking there isn't much there to offer. E-collars are for retard about sum's it all up.
Even if he were to pull his head out of his ass it wouldn't do any good I doubt he would bother to wipe the shit out of his eyes. :lol:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Now do you have something to share relevant to the subject line or not? Commenting that e-collars are for retards doesn't cut it.

Where did I say that ??? Or are you just going to put words in my mouth ???????

Quote : I'm thinking there isn't much there to offer. E-collars are for retard about sum's it all up.
Even if he were to pull his head out of his ass it wouldn't do any good I doubt he would bother to wipe the shit out of his eyes.

I have never had my head up my ass, not once, as I am not that flexible. Plus I would probably wear goggles. No need to finally take a look and not be able to see all the little Schibbers....now is there ? ? ? ?

=D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> 

THank you, I will be here all week.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

If your foundation is solid, and you are working with a problem that stems from the dog just going into overdrive over this situation or that, I use the e-collar to explain to the dog that I do not care what he thinks he needs to do, he needs to do what I have told him to do.

THis is something that is best discussed without typing for me, as there are things that too many people do wrong.

I do not use it like a retriever trainier, and dogs that go around the pond have melted under the amount of pressure they are percieving from the trainer and the collar. I have seen dogs hop off the ground from an e-collar correction, so can you imagine one while swimming ? ? ? ?

I use the collar for finishing stuff, the dog already knows what is expected.

Most of the time if the dog is doing what you are talking about, there is too much pressure for the dog. That is why you get those goofy behaviors. Sorry that all the "experts" couldn't come up with the blatantly obvious.

As for putting things on and off, it won't help if they are used incorrectly.


Once again, I shut up the critics, and rock this board. Thats right, I just rocked you ! ! ! ! !

=D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> 


Thank you thank you, I will be here all week .:-D


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> If your foundation is solid, and you are working with a problem that stems from the dog just going into overdrive over this situation or that, I use the e-collar to explain to the dog that I do not care what he thinks he needs to do, he needs to do what I have told him to do.
> 
> I use the collar for finishing stuff, the dog already knows what is expected.
> 
> ...


R U ****ing serious, that's all you've got? I think I said the same on my first post of this thread

"I laid all the foundation training on my dog without the e also, he was about 19 months before I started to use one on him." 

I have never used on e for a command that wasn't already foundation trained using another method. Basicly the e gives me more control when I'm away from my dog, doing numerous commands and need split second corrections. If someone can't see that when they hit the stem it blows their dogs mind rather than just wake him up to get a positive response, they need to not only leave the e out of their tool set but stop working their dog alltogether, until they can read a dog at a basic level.

I get a sharper, less stressed response with the low stem e, rather than me getting all worked up and cranking on his neck. I stay calm, the dog stays calm and training goes very smooth. No walking back and forth to your dog, giving him time to forget what he screwed up in the first place, no confused dog, no irritated handler. The e collar is a great tool and one just as easy to work without in trial, as a leash, pinch or a toy, as Bob Scott pointed out earlier. Anybody who can't get the same results without as with, isn't training consistantly and needs to quit trying to cut corners. Even with the e-collar, the dog still needs countless hours training before a trial, you can't just slap a collar on him once a week and expect it to work magic for you.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

I am intruding on an "at sports trial" question because it's so repeatedly off-track in such a boring and unproductive way (if you don't happen to be the flame-thrower or throwee).

_R U ****ing serious, that's all you've got? I think I said the same on my first post of this thread

_Yup! That's what the post says, and it's what yours says too! IMHO, you both said it pretty fluffy-bunny-ing plainly .... and also (IMH no-trialing opinion) correctly.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

And PS, ain't it ****ing great when actual training opinions are posted without twelve ****ing side-threads about who's a retard and who's being mean and let's everybody be mean right back, _ad infinitum _and _ad nauseum_? :lol:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Connie, no not really.

Quote: I get a sharper, less stressed response with the low stem e, rather than me getting all worked up and cranking on his neck. I stay calm, the dog stays calm and training goes very smooth. No walking back and forth to your dog, giving him time to forget what he screwed up in the first place, no confused dog, no irritated handler. 

Apparently markers are out, and your foundation work in the down wasn't so hot.

Since you were guessing, which was obvious, here is the answer to the question.

Quote (me) Most of the time if the dog is doing what you are talking about, there is too much pressure for the dog. That is why you get those goofy behaviors. Sorry that all the "experts" couldn't come up with the blatantly obvious.

There it is, you missed by a ****ing mile. HA HA


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote (me) Most of the time if the dog is doing what you are talking about, there is too much pressure for the dog.


I got lost. (Yes, I admit that I skimmed.)

What was the dog doing?

OK, OK, I will go back and look. :lol:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote (me) Most of the time if the dog is doing what you are talking about, there is too much pressure for the dog. That is why you get those goofy behaviors.


OK, I see that more than one dog exhibited "goofy" behavior. :lol:

This one: _i do have to say, having been a spectator at numerous field-trials for labs, that the dogs do think for themselves and embarrass thier handlers (like--why swim when i can run around the edge of the pond quicker?) and these are dogs that are trained exclusively w/e-collars...

_certainly fits that pressure answer, as well as every foundation answer.

And this:
_ Apparently markers are out, and your foundation work in the down wasn't so hot.

_I didn't see a dog breaking the down on the thread, but I admit that I skimmed again. If I did see a dog breaking the down, then _Apparently markers are out, and your foundation work in the down wasn't so hot_ is a great answer. 



Jeff Oehlsen said:


> If your foundation is solid, and you are working with a problem that stems from the dog just going into overdrive over this situation or that, I use the e-collar to explain to the dog that I do not care what he thinks he needs to do, he needs to do what I have told him to do.


This would preclude using the e-collar (or the prong collar) in place of foundation training, and once again, YES. YES! 

As much as I have trouble understanding in every post which handler or which post is being addressed (hey, I'm old; not as old as Bob, of course, but plenty old), I don't know how anyone can argue with that premise. Corrections do not replace foundation work.



The O.P. asked "train w/ e-collar, then trial without. .... how does one get the performance in trial w/o the e-collar?"

And to my mind, you and Michelle have both given good POVs.



Jeff Oehlsen said:


> If your foundation is solid, and you are working with a problem that stems from the dog just going into overdrive over this situation or that, I use the e-collar to explain to the dog that I do not care what he thinks he needs to do, he needs to do what I have told him to do. ... I do not use it like a retriever trainier .... *I use the collar for finishing stuff, the dog already knows what is expected.*





Michelle Kehoe said:


> *I laid all the foundation training on my dog without the e also*, he was about 19 months before I started to use one on him.


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## liz shulman (Aug 28, 2008)

ann freier said:


> ok, but he always had the collar ON. i'm still not getting how one trains w/e-collar, then gets the performance at trial w/out it, unless in training you simply load the dog up w/3-4 collars on at the same time to prevent becoming collar-wise...


One trick I learned ages ago was to use a flat or pinch collar for most of the training, then to get the dog used to the ecollar and the sender but not to use it. When he's used to wearing it and used to you walking around pushing a button and nothing happens, then put a choke collar on him right before using the ecollar.

The dog becomes collar smart, but we've manipulated him to what he's "smart" to. I did use that on a couple of dogs and it does work. Well, that's fine and dandy if that's all you want. But if you're doing a sport where the dog doesn't wear a collar or if you want the dog to behave around the house, it's not so useful.

That's where the rest of your training and the relationship with the dog comes in. If you're still correcting the dog, you're not ready to trial. If the dog needs to trial nekkid and he's dependent on a collar, you're not ready to trial.

Wean off the equipment, use other tools. Using treats, toys, etc is great for building up on the other end, but then you have to wean off that also. Easier to do. You can't very well correct a dog after the training for something he missed 20 minutes ago, but you can reward for a completed routine. 

Life rewards are a good way to not be dependent on equipment.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Don't feel bad Connie, I had to go back and see what dog was breaking a down too. Wasn't my dog. LOL :-k


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Http://loucastle.com/wean.htm


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## liz shulman (Aug 28, 2008)

Lou Castle said:


> Http://loucastle.com/wean.htm





> I recommend that people use automatic corrections, that is they give a stimulation EVERY time they give a command, for the first two months of their training. *Do this even if the dog is in the act of performing the movement.*


^emphasis mine^


Something about that sounds very unfair to the dog.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

liz shulman quotes from my article about weaning the dog off the Ecollar,


> I recommend that people use automatic corrections, that is they give a stimulation EVERY time they give a command, for the first two months of their training. Do this even if the dog is in the act of performing the movement.





liz shulman said:


> Something about that sounds very unfair to the dog.


Ideas about "fairness" will vary widely. There are those who think it's "unfair" that we impose "slavery" on dogs in the first place. There are those who think it's "unfair" that we put collars around their necks and lead them around, imposing our will on them. There are those who think it's "unfair" to show a dog a treat (or allow him to know that you have them) and NOT give it to him immediately. 

If a dog thinks it's perfectly OK to pee and poop in the house, free feed from the dinner table and chew up the furniture who are WE to tell him any different? 

If I was using stim above the level where the dog first feels it, I'd probably agree. But since I'm not, I don't.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Connie, quit skimming, as I am sure most of you are doing. Here is where she is talking about the down, as she is doing Sch, and I don't see where else this would happen other than the down.

QUOTE: No walking back and forth to your dog,

Skimming is the reason that these dipshits think that I CALLED them a dipshit, as opposed to calling their training "dipshit" training. WIth the basic fact that I am not seeing a whole bunch of really high reading comprehension going on, maybe skimming should be banned.](*,) ](*,) ](*,) 

So **** off, at least I take the time to READ your posts completely, and not just guess.


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

When is there going to be a Jeff Oehlsen seminar. I need to learn everything he knows.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I have trained with many different people and heard that they followed this method or that, but then when you see what they are doing it looks nothing like what the person whose training they say they follows training. Everyone else that trains with this person (not anyone specific) it is blatantly obvious that they train with this person.

I just like to train dogs, and have an opinion.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Connie, quit skimming, as I am sure most of you are doing. Here is where she is talking about the down, as she is doing Sch, and I don't see where else this would happen other than the down.
> 
> QUOTE: No walking back and forth to your dog,
> 
> ...


Jeff, take your own advice and quite skimming. I DO NOT train in Schutzhund and never have. My dog does not break his down and is capable of holding a long down for over 5 minutes,while I read a book at the park. Could be my dog downs on a sit, after awhile, could be I have lose dogs around sometimes being I am out in a public park. Makes for good distractions but I want some security from a distance. Never know when someones lose Chi decides to come "be" breakfast. Kinda sad we have so many lose dogs in town my dog handles them as distractions better than a static decoy. Looks like I may need an old suit to have someone walk around in while I do OB at home. Jeff look left under my avatar and read...P S A under training. :-#


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Oh and my club does follow what Lou Castle posted. Dogs get corrected everytime for every command until he is solid and even then, only at trial do we not do the correction WITH the command. There is NO option to ignore or do your own thing. You can cry unfare to the sky but it works and my dog doesn't learn that he has any other option but to do as I say. I'm not saying helicopter his ass to the sky but a short light pop up to sit, down to down and forward to heel, backwards to out. Oh NO, someone call the Humane Society!


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## Guest (Sep 10, 2008)

*Teaching* the recall:





> *Let him wander out to the end of the Flexi and then press the continuous button.* For the purpose of this exercise imagine that you’re standing in the center of a circle whose radius is the length of your Flexi. No matter what he does, use the leash to gently pull him towards you. How hard do you pull? About as hard as you’d push on a baby carriage to get and keep it moving. That is, just hard enough to get the dog to move. As soon as he starts to walk towards you, that is, he takes 4–5 steps in response to the pulling pressure of the Flexi, release the button. DO NOT stim him all the way in to you!





> I suggest that you hold the Flexi in your right hand and have your left shoulder pointed towards the dog when you start the pull. Extend your right arm across your chest before you start the pull. This allows you to have 4’-6’ of pull (depending on the length of your arms) in one continuous motion. You can also face the dog and extend your arm straight in front of you. When you pull on the Flexi, extend your arm out the back. This is a bit harder than putting your left side towards the dog because the muscles that move your arm in that situation are stronger. Another advantage of the first method is that the dog is pulled towards your left side, the heeling side.
> 
> *More than likely he'll think that the ground over there was hot or that something bit him (one of those superstitions) and he'll run past you and go to your other side of that circle that you’re standing in the middle of. As soon as he settles down and is at the end of your Flexi, press and hold the button again.* Gently pull him towards you again. As soon as he takes 4–5 steps towards you, release the button. It may take a few minutes before he wanders out to the end of the Flexi again. If you stand around for more than 5 minutes and he hasn't gone all the way out, gently walk away from the direction that he’s facing such that you move away so he’s at the end of the Flexi again. Press and hold the button and guide the dog towards you again. When he’s taken those 4–5 steps towards you, release the button.
> 
> ...


And this is merely the learning phase, you say? 

Effective punishment should provide immediate _CLARITY,_ and it should be administered to _STOP _behavior. You go against really basic learning principles for any species. Human, rat, ...anything. I'm just the messenger on that one. Nothing original there. That's just....really basic.

The all-or-nothing red herring you whipped out is pretty lame too. Either the dog counter-surfs and pees on the rug, or else it's stimmed into compliance for brand new exercies complete with outward symptoms of severe stress.  

Stress isn't just an anthropomorphism. It has physiological symptoms and conqequences. It doesn't seem reasonable to want to _mimimize_ one's exposure to this process? 

In response to that, are you going to counter with mentioning "low stim" again? After explicitly describing symptoms of severe stress over _INTRODUCING THE RECALL_??  

Stress and pain are typically closely associated with humans, but not neccesarily animals. 

To save myself from accusations of anthromporphism, I'll refrain from the abbreviation of "suffer" and continue to say "incurs the universal physiological stress response" instead....because that's plainly fact.

Evidence points to animals not incurring a significant degree of the universal physiological stress response from pain alone....particularly chronic pain. They don't engage in the "woe is me" response peculiar to humans. In fact, with a particular kind of lobotomy, humans don't experience suffering from pain either. They describe the pain as existant, but...they aren't emotionally bothered by it. They get on with life. It's not a huge deal. That sounds like an animal with a mangled paw...sure they favor it, but...they limp around and deal with it. The might even be happy to run around three-leggedly and play ball without outward symptoms of confusion and stress. 

However (and this also just_ seems_ obvious...I don't know), but animals do get stressed from the confusion which pain as a stimulus may serve to _elicit._ Fear is a well accepted stressor "emotion" that animals (especially mammals) are known to experience. In fact, from your own description they experience this acutely during your teaching phase.

A mangled paw is black and white. Touch the ground, get hurt. Favor paw. Very simple. I can't imagine a dog stress-panting from figuring out which paw to not use. Yet somehow they do manage to experience that with how you teach a recall?

Jesus.

If the bottom line of physiological affects is still anthropomorphic to you, well...not sure what else to say.


----------



## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Please Steven if you're going to quote (especially at length) from my web site, at least give the link and/or credit for it. (For the record Steven's quote is from here, http://loucastle.com/recall.htm 



Steven Lepic said:


> And this is merely the learning phase, you say?


Yep. 



Steven Lepic said:


> Effective punishment should provide immediate _CLARITY _


_

Pressing the button, pulling the dog towards the handler and as soon as the dog starts to move toward the handler DOES provide "immediate clarity." 

_


Steven Lepic said:


> and it should be administered to _STOP _behavior.


In this case it IS stopping behavior. That behavior is the dog standing "over there." It's causing him to move, at first, to another position and then to standing next to the handler. 



Steven Lepic said:


> You go against really basic learning principles for any species. Human, rat, ...anything. I'm just the messenger on that one. Nothing original there. That's just....really basic.


I think that what I'm doing falls EXACTLY into learning principles. If it didn't, there wouldn't be any learning. Perhaps you can show us where I'm violating the learning principles. 



Steven Lepic said:


> The all-or-nothing red herring you whipped out is pretty lame too.


I disagree. Your comment comes across as rather rude. Was it intended that way? 



Steven Lepic said:


> Either the dog counter-surfs and pees on the rug,


The question being addressed was one of fairness. I merely used such things as counter surfing and peeing and pooping in the house as examples of things we do to bend the dog to our will. Is that fair? Some would say it's not. There is no standard definition of "fair" engraved in some stone somewhere that we all agree on. 



Steven Lepic said:


> or else it's stimmed into compliance for brand new exercies complete with outward symptoms of severe stress.


The dog is NOT stimmed into compliance. He's guided with the leash (in this protocol – in others the hands are used as well) the stim is to show him what behavior is desirable and what behavior is undesirable. As the saying goes, reinforce what you want and punish what you don't want. Please show us the "symptoms of severe stress." 



Steven Lepic said:


> Stress isn't just an anthropomorphism.


Don't think I said anything about "an anthropomorphism." 



Steven Lepic said:


> It has physiological symptoms and conqequences. It doesn't seem reasonable to want to _mimimize_ one's exposure to this process?


Don't you mean that it DOES seem reasonable to want to minimize one's exposure to this process? 



Steven Lepic said:


> In response to that, are you going to counter with mentioning "low stim" again?


Doesn’t look like it. I'll just repeat that any learning situation involves stress. 



Steven Lepic said:


> After explicitly describing symptoms of severe stress over _INTRODUCING THE RECALL_??


I seem to have missed the "describing symptoms of severe stress." Can you show me what you're referring to. 



Steven Lepic said:


> Stress and pain are typically closely associated with humans, but not neccesarily animals.


I'm just a po' dog trainer but do we really need something like this (from the link you supplied) to know what stress is?


> Another major pathway involved in the stress mechanism is carried through the catecholamines liberated under the influence of an acetylcholine discharge, at autonomic nerve endings and in the adrenal medulla. The chromaffin cells of the latter secrete mainly epinephrine, which is of considerable value in that it stimulates mechanisms of general utility to meet various demands for adaptation.





Steven Lepic said:


> Fear is a well accepted stressor "emotion" that animals (especially mammals) are known to experience. In fact, from your own description they experience this acutely during your teaching phase.


Something else I seem to have missed. Can you point that out too? 



Steven Lepic said:


> I can't imagine a dog stress-panting from figuring out which paw to not use. Yet somehow they do manage to experience that with how you teach a recall?


First of all there's no "learning" going on with a "hurt paw." The dog knows it hurts, he may or may not know why. Second, there's stress in ANY learning situation, no matter what method is used to teach. Third, the sensation of stim is foreign to the dog. He does not know what it is and he does not know how to make it stops. That takes a few minutes for him to learn. Meanwhile he feels stress while trying to make the connection (in this case) with being away from the handler, moving towards the handler and the stim stopping. Finally, the panting comes because the stressful situation induces muscular contraction that raises the dog's body temp, causing the panting. 



Steven Lepic said:


> If the bottom line of physiological affects is still anthropomorphic to you, well...not sure what else to say.


No idea what this means either. 

Here's an example of a dog showing high levels of stress when his working level of stim is being found. This is the very first phase of Ecollar work. 

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-1718526843747129672

Here's another one. 

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=4571690050956829725&vt=lf&hl=en


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-1718526843747129672

That can't be anyones idea of a totally out of control dog can it ?? That's what he said.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-1718526843747129672
> 
> That can't be anyones idea of a totally out of control dog can it ?? That's what he said.


Gary the dog was known for pulling so hard on the leash that several times before this video session, he'd pulled the owner off her feet. She's written about it several times on another forum. Even when wearing a "no pull harness" he still pulled so hard that the owner took several "running steps" when walking behind him. 

On this occasion the trainer didn't realize until after he'd made that comment that the owner and the dog had been at the park for a long time before he'd arrived. As a result, the dog was tired and so, not as active as usual. 

There's another video floating around that shows the dog exhibiting this behavior. If you go back to that page and look at the "related videos" it may be there. She doesn’t lose her footing in that video but it's obvious the dog is pulling pretty badly.


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-1718526843747129672
> 
> That can't be anyones idea of a totally out of control dog can it ?? That's what he said.


My guess would be that they pre-tested the dog's level before they videoed to be sure they did not get an adverse reaction on tape. The second go round the dog was a bit more inhibited. Earlier in the video prior to the stronger reaction of the dog looking at the ground for the "bug that bit him" I saw what I would take to be multiple responses to stimulus. In fact, I would guess that was what prompted the dog to yawn and lie down. When the handler heads off for "walkies" the labs demeanor is inhibited, he walks with a stilted gait and his tail set is lower and quieter than I would expect from your average lab, let alone an "out of control" one.

Not that I am against the use of the e-collar but I attended an "Uncle Lou" seminar in CA and watched the fall out of un-balanced e-collar training in the subsequent weeks at the club that hosted it. Now we all know that not everyone who attends a seminar will be equally adept at following through with the method but by week two many of the club dogs had their tails tucked and were heading for the truck if given the chance and within a month most trainers had abandoned the e-collar having blamed the tool for their problems instead of their poor application of its use.

When the e-collar is sold as a cure all tool and those that advocate its use try to tell folks that is causes mo more stress when "properly used" than any other collar, I do take issue with it. I have seen the same thing over and over again and in my experience the e-collar is more likely to produce a stress response in the dog than "manual" correction collars. 

Videos like this one may sell pet dog owners on the method as it protrays and "out of control" dog who is now watching his step. On the other hand, those that are astute at observing canine behavior can see the stress and anticipate the fallout.

Generalized inhibition may be okay in the pet dog world and may even benefit the pet owner/dog relationship my making the dog more manageable. But this is a working dog forum and I am sure none of us wants to see this kind of fall out in our working dogs. 

Lisa


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

I agree Lisa, I thought the dog started feeling it at about 21 seconds in, he licks his lips and starts looking around for a cause to what he is feeling and getting a bit vocal before he yawns and lays, then looks down.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Lisa Maze said:


> My guess would be that they pre-tested the dog's level before they videoed to be sure they did not get an adverse reaction on tape.


Nope didn't happen. 



Lisa Maze said:


> The second go round the dog was a bit more inhibited. Earlier in the video prior to the stronger reaction of the dog looking at the ground for the "bug that bit him" I saw what I would take to be multiple responses to stimulus. In fact, I would guess that was what prompted the dog to yawn and lie down.


I disagree. But several others have agreed with your assessment. 



Lisa Maze said:


> When the handler heads off for "walkies" the labs demeanor is inhibited, he walks with a stilted gait and his tail set is lower and quieter than I would expect from your average lab, let alone an "out of control" one.


I guess that we were writing our responses at the same time but I finished first. 



Lisa Maze said:


> Not that I am against the use of the e-collar but I attended an "Uncle Lou" seminar in CA and watched the fall out of un-balanced e-collar training in the subsequent weeks at the club that hosted it. Now we all know that not everyone who attends a seminar will be equally adept at following through with the method but by week two many of the club dogs had their tails tucked and were heading for the truck if given the chance and within a month most trainers had abandoned the e-collar having blamed the tool for their problems instead of their poor application of its use.


I've attended clicker seminars where two weeks later no one was using the tool properly. Most were waaay too late with their clicks and so the dogs were learning exactly the wrong thing. Many of them had completely confused their dogs and had lost what little control they had before the training started. Many of the dogs were highly stressed, probably from a combination of their own confusion and their owner's frustration at their inability to get the method to work. Within a few more weeks most had dumped the clicker, blaming the tool for their problems instead of their poor application of its use. 

As always, I'm only talking about tools properly used. But as we can see, misuse is not limited to the Ecollar. I've never understood why people do this, place the emphasis on poor use, misuse, or abuse (haven't seen the latter in this discussion). 



Lisa Maze said:


> When the e-collar is sold as a cure all tool


Can you give us an example of this I've NEVER said this and haven't see any one else do so either. Yet I see such comments quite frequently in these discussions. 



Lisa Maze said:


> and those that advocate its use try to tell folks that is causes mo more stress when "properly used" than any other collar,


That's right. Many people who advocate the so-called "kinder, gentler methods" refuse to admit that there's ANY stress with their methods. But there is and if you look for it, it's easy to find. 



Lisa Maze said:


> I have seen the same thing over and over again and in my experience the e-collar is more likely to produce a stress response in the dog than "manual" correction collars.


I have seen the same thing over and over again an in my experience the so-called "kinder, gentler methods" are more likely to produce a stress response in the dog than Ecollars. See, makes just as much sense. And given my view of those methods, is just as accurate. 



Lisa Maze said:


> Videos like this one may sell pet dog owners on the method as it protrays and "out of control" dog who is now watching his step. On the other hand, those that are astute at observing canine behavior can see the stress and anticipate the fallout.


I think that since you have no basis for comparison (no before and after) that such a statement is a guess at best, and given your other comments, may be a bit biased. You have no idea how the dog moved before the Ecollar test and so have nothing to judge it by except your expectation of what the dog might be like. In any case, my previous post that told why this dog was behaving as he was *they'd arrived at the part (I think it was an hour) before the trainer arrived and the dog had been pulling the owner around for most of that time, shows what really was going on. 



Lisa Maze said:


> Generalized inhibition may be okay in the pet dog world and may even benefit the pet owner/dog relationship my making the dog more manageable. But this is a working dog forum and I am sure none of us wants to see this kind of fall out in our working dogs.


I don't think that you can talk about "generalized inhibition" without knowing what the dog was like before the Ecollar was applied. And you can't compare a tired dog to do a fresh one as far as pulling on the leash. 

Here's the other video I referred to that shows the dog fresh. Notice that he's pulling in spite of the "no pull harness" he's wearing. 

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=6913352652803788252

You now have a "before" picture but it doesn't show the dog tired from an hour of leash pulling so still there's no baseline to show any "general inhibition."


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Michelle Kehoe said:


> I agree Lisa, I thought the dog started feeling it at about 21 seconds in, he licks his lips and starts looking around for a cause to what he is feeling and getting a bit vocal before he yawns and lays, then looks down.


I disagree. First of all the dog licks his lips at @ 19 seconds. But he doesn't start to lay down until @36 seconds, some 7 seconds later. I don't think that either behavior is related to feeling the stim. 

There's no response that's consistent with a dog feeling his first stim until @ 50 seconds, when he suddenly looks at the ground between his legs. Typically, that first response is a very fast movement on the part of the dog, NOT the slow lip licking and/or the slow laying down that 's been attributed to feeling the stim. 

Notice that within seconds he's back to "normal" (meaning acting just as he was before the stim was applied). The owner says (to the effect) "No reaction until he had a 'sniff down.' " Of course her perceptions are not those of a trainer.


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2008)

> As always, I'm only talking about tools properly used.


Which is what really gets me, because your stated purpose of the e-collar is to stress the dog. From day one. Green dog, new skill. Stim. Expect confusion, panting, various superstitions you have to stim away with the next skill etc. Your words, not mine.

The stated purpose of a clicker is to bridge a reward. For the sake of having something to say, I frankly think you're exaggerating your experience of stressed out dogs from clicker misapplication.

Then there's this:




> One of the most difficult challenges in working with the Ecollar is working with a puppy. Puppies are the hardest because everything is new to them. Their distraction level is very low one second and then will peak the next. There’s very little in between. Everywhere they look they find something new and interesting. This can make it difficult to find their working level because they're distracted by so much and so often.


 
And you're honestly baffled as to why someone might get the _impression_ that your e-collar philosophy is a "cure all"?

:-&


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Earlier I wrote,


> As always, I'm only talking about tools properly used.





Steven Lepic said:


> Which is what really gets me, because your *stated purpose *of the e-collar is to stress the dog. [Emphasis added]


In truth, my *"stated purpose" *is to teach the recall. 

I challenge you to find a statement that I've made where I've said that, "my stated purpose is to stress the dog." This is a pretty misleading statement Steven. , and one that's not anywhere close to the truth. I want to minimize the stress and so I use the lowest level of stim that the dog can feel. I want to minimize the stress and so the instant that the stim starts, I guide the dog into the desired behavior, moving towards the handler. I want to minimize the stress and so I reward the dog instantly for doing the desired behavior. The stim lasts for about one second. 



Steven Lepic said:


> From day one. Green dog, new skill. Stim. Expect confusion, panting, various superstitions you have to stim away with the next skill etc. Your words, not mine.


I'm honest enough to admit that there's stress involved in this, as there is in any learning situation, no matter what tool or method is used. Some are not so honest about their tool or method of choice. Or they may not even realize that stress is present. 



Steven Lepic said:


> The stated purpose of a clicker is to bridge a reward.


The "stated purpose" of using a clicker to teach the recall, is the same as mine, to teach the recall. All you've done is to introduce the language of clicker training. That's NOT what an owner wants to do. They want the dog to come when he's called. "Bridging to a reward" is but the method and the clicker is the tool, to achieve the desired end result, teaching the recall. 

When people use the clicker (or the method) with free shaping, there's nothing done with the sole intent to minimize the stress. The trainer just stands around waiting for the dog "to offer" a behavior. If the dog doesn't not guess right, and it's purely a guess on his part, nothing happens except that he knows that _something _is desired by the trainer, but he has NO IDEA what it is. THAT causes stress. 



Steven Lepic said:


> For the sake of having something to say, I frankly think you're exaggerating your experience of stressed out dogs from clicker misapplication.


You're wrong. If someone truly wanted to see it, they could. Some want to pretend that it's not even there so even if it was pointed out, they'd not see it or they'd call it something else. 

Steven then quotes from my website, AGAIN without giving credit. Steven it's not only confusing to people who are reading this who don't know what you're citing, it's plagiarism for you to use my writings without giving me credit. Please let people know where you're quoting from and give the link so people can go read it in context. Here's where Steven is quoting from. 

http://loucastle.com/recall.htm 



> One of the most difficult challenges in working with the Ecollar is working with a puppy. Puppies are the hardest because everything is new to them. Their distraction level is very low one second and then will peak the next. There’s very little in between. Everywhere they look they find something new and interesting. This can make it difficult to find their working level because they're distracted by so much and so often.





Steven Lepic said:


> And you're honestly baffled as to why someone might get the _impression_ that your e-collar philosophy is a "cure all"?


Yes I certainly am baffled. I've never given that impression. Please tell us specifically, where from anything I've written, you've gotten that impression. I've been quite clear when I've written that "no one *needs *an Ecollar." Your comment is nothing but _your interpretation _ based on instructions I've provided for the use of the tool and things I've said about it. And it's a wrong one. Your comment that "my philosophy" that the Ecollar is a "cure all" is NOT true or correct. And for you to state it as a fact is highly misleading. 

As with anything, _the Ecollar _is just a tool. It's how it's used that's important.


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2008)

> I challenge you to find a statement that I've made where I've said that, "my stated purpose is to stress the dog."





> Remember the essence of Ecollar training, give the command and make the dog uncomfortable.


 


> Re clicker shaping...The trainer just stands around waiting for the dog "to offer" a behavior.


I didn't mention spontaneous shaping. Now you're cherry picking methods to suit your discussion. In fact, you're offering the worst case scenario of one method and contrasting it to the best case scenario of YOURs. Not valid. You're also comparing different varieties of "confusion".

#1. A dog is given a whole bunch of choices, without a lot of guidance, regarding how to achieve a reinforcing stimulus. I suppose that creates confusion, yes. You say there's stress involved...but it might not be apparent.

#2. A dog is given a whole bunch choices regarding how to stop a punishing stimulus. Also confusion. You say stress IS apparent. In fact, enough that it's _best to stop on a positive note and give a reward._

You're saying #1 is just as stressful as #2? 

What's more, one can greatly narrow the choices in #1 with additional inductive means (luring etc)

Additionally, I've been addressing one narrow aspect of training. I'm not contesting a complete absence of "stress" in any phase of learning, I'm talking about the application of stim to a green dog and then expecting him to sort things out...when there is clearly a less stressful alternative.

Furthermore, it's a discussion of degree. The variety of stress "which might not be apparent to the trained eye" is LESS than the variety of stress which _is completely apparent to the untrained eye._ Isn't that safe to say?

I feel like I"m on the business end of jedi mind tricks. :smile: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnjaUoR15dU


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## liz shulman (Aug 28, 2008)

Lou Castle said:


> http://loucastle.com/recall.htm
> 
> Pressing the button, pulling the dog towards the handler and as soon as the dog starts to move toward the handler DOES provide "immediate clarity."





> As soon as he starts to walk towards you, that is, he takes 4–5 steps in response to the pulling pressure of the Flexi, release the button.


4-5 steps towards you is a far cry from "as soon as" and "immediate". That would be the first step towards you - or if you're _really_ good, it would be when he looks at you and begins to shift his weight.



Lou Castle said:


> I've attended clicker seminars where two weeks later no one was using the tool properly. Most were waaay too late with their clicks and so the dogs were learning exactly the wrong thing. Many of them had completely confused their dogs and had lost what little control they had before the training started. Many of the dogs were highly stressed, probably from a combination of their own confusion and their owner's frustration at their inability to get the method to work. Within a few more weeks most had dumped the clicker, blaming the tool for their problems instead of their poor application of its use.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> That's right. Many people who advocate the so-called "kinder, gentler methods" refuse to admit that there's ANY stress with their methods. But there is and if you look for it, it's easy to find.


Yup. I agree here. That's a problem with seminars. People don't generally learn the method well in just a seminar. Seminars can be great for an introduction to something, or they can be great if they use a method you already use and it takes that method further, but to attend a seminar and then think you can be proficient at it is a huge problem.

I do advocate positive motivation. I also use corrections after the learning phase. I agree that there can very well be stress involved in the positive methods. I've seen it. I've seen it in my own dogs.



liz shulman said:


> Something about that sounds very unfair to the dog.


Just to clarify here, what I find unfair is the use of automatic corrections - correcting the dog even though he is performing the behavior. It's not the use of an ecollar that I find unfair.

Steven Lepic wrote:


> #1. A dog is given a whole bunch of choices, without a lot of guidance, regarding how to achieve a reinforcing stimulus. I suppose that creates confusion, yes. You say there's stress involved...but it might not be apparent.
> 
> #2. A dog is given a whole bunch choices regarding how to stop a punishing stimulus. Also confusion. You say stress IS apparent. In fact, enough that it's best to stop on a positive note and give a reward.
> 
> ...


Well, yea. both methods can be stressful if done poorly. With negative reinforcement training (which is what the low stim ecollar use that Lou outlines is) stress can be greatly reduced also by directing the dog. Which is outlined on Lou's website. The problem being that in the case of the recall (and I haven't read all the rest recently) the NR is coming too late.

As for #1 above, I have seen very apparent signs of stress caused by clicker training.


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2008)

> As for #1 above, I have seen very apparent signs of stress caused by clicker training.


Done rightly, or done wrongly? Because Lou says, and I agree, you can only compare both methods done correctly. I'm trying to follow that rule in this discussion. 

Problem is, all this apparent stress keeps popping up with the stimming DONE CORRECTLY with, I'll repeat again, unlearned dogs being introduced to new skills.

_Press the button, make the dog uncomfortable._ That's _the foundation._

Am I way the **** off base here?

A litmus test I like to think of when it comes to fundamental learning principles is how well it'd apply to some other animal, and whether or not the dog's degree of malleability and social hard-wiring is simply clouding the unsound principles of learning being applied to it.

Question...how well would stimming apply to a cat? Or something else more inclined to shut down and freak out under stress?

Do we see signs of stress in cats being trained with proper clicker methods?


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## liz shulman (Aug 28, 2008)

Steven Lepic said:


> Done rightly, or done wrongly? Because Lou says, and I agree, you can only compare both methods done correctly. I'm trying to follow that rule in this discussion.
> 
> Problem is, all this apparent stress keeps popping up with the stimming DONE CORRECTLY with, I'll repeat again, unlearned dogs being introduced to new skills.
> 
> ...


Done rightly..with one minor issue - it was a poor choice of methods for the dog. This was with Nyx - my own dog. The problem was that her brain fires about four times faster than the fastest thinking dog I've ever seen. Because of that, the timing between behavior and click and treat was impossible, which caused misunderstanding and considerable stress.

The thing with the low stim ecollar training is that yes, pressing the button makes the dog uncomfortable - but not in a way that's directed at the handler's actions. The dog then learns that if he does X behavior, he is no longer uncomfortable. It would be like if a swarm of mosquitoes were surrounding you. You would be uncomfortable. You walk away from the pond and towards the house and you're no longer surrounded by biting mosquitoes. You learn to be closer to the house in order to avoid mosquitoes and the unpleasantness of being bitten by them.

I do agree that if a method is *always* causing apparent stress, then it either is not a good method, or it is not the right method for that dog and handler, or it is not being done correctly. 

I have seen dogs trained with low stim NR who have not shown apparent signs of stress. So I wouldn't blame the method. I've thought about using the method on one of my dogs, but for many reasons opted not to. The issues I have is in releasing the button 4-5 steps into a recall and in correcting a dog even though he is performing the desired behavior.


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2008)

> The problem was that her brain fires about four times faster than the fastest thinking dog I've ever seen. Because of that, the timing between behavior and click and treat was impossible, which caused misunderstanding and considerable stress.


Picturing a pristine marker training scenario, at worst the dog is being rewarded for a bunch of random crap because the handler's timing (for whatever reason) is not in sync with the HANDLER's objectives. As far as the dog is concerned, it's raining treats....unless you're administering a bunch of clicks, catching yourself, and then witholding the reward.

Now...I can certainly imagine it being stressful for YOU since things aren't going YOUR way. But what exactly was going on to make the dog wierded out?

Genuine question. No rhetorical adversity.


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## liz shulman (Aug 28, 2008)

Steven Lepic said:


> Now...I can certainly imagine it being stressful for YOU since things aren't going YOUR way. But what exactly was going on to make the dog wierded out?
> 
> Genuine question. No rhetorical adversity.


The dog wasn't connecting the chain of events - dog's behavior -> my click -> treat given. Her brain cells for whatever reason just didn't work that way. She made the connection between click and treat, and after three days decided that the clicker was an automatic treat dispensing machine.

When I got rid of the clicker and just used treats, she did fine. Now that she's a bit older we have dug out the clicker to try again and she's doing well with it.


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2008)

You just skipped the bridging entirely, you're saying?


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2008)

> Her brain cells for whatever reason just didn't work that way. She made the connection between click and treat, and after three days decided that the clicker was an automatic treat dispensing machine.


How was that stress inducing for the dog though?


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## liz shulman (Aug 28, 2008)

Steven Lepic said:


> You just skipped the bridging entirely, you're saying?


You mean when I stopped trying to use the clicker? Yes, no bridge, no marker, just behavior -> reward.



Steven Lepic said:


> How was that stress inducing for the dog though?


She was trying to get the clicker to give her treats and wasn't able to understand why it didn't work. Was she stress-panting? no. Was her tail tucked? no. But there were some other very clear indications of increasing stress before I ended the session. Kinda like when the vending machine doesn't work and I can't have my chocolate bar. And I try repeatedly and get more stressed each time.


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2008)

> Kinda like when the vending machine doesn't work and I can't have my chocolate bar. And I try repeatedly and get more stressed each time.


Understood!


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Steve: Do I understand correctly, in that you disagree with Lou's e-collar training methods? What training methods do you use with the e-collar?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Looks like I may need an old suit to have someone walk around in while I do OB at home. Jeff look left under my avatar and read...P S A under training.









You mean there is a difference in the two pathetic sports ? ? ? ? ? ?


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2008)

> Steve: Do I understand correctly, in that you disagree with Lou's e-collar training methods?


The collar is 100% beside the point. E-, prong, choke, b.b. gun, Keanu Reeves' acting ...doesn't matter. It's the intentional application of discomfort and invariable confusion and stress_ at a point_ where it's not neccesary.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Steven Lepic said:


> The collar is 100% beside the point. E-, prong, choke, b.b. gun, Keanu Reeves' acting ...doesn't matter. It's the intentional application of discomfort and invariable confusion and stress_ at a point_ where it's not neccesary.


OK, now can you tell me what methods you use when training with the e-collar and what do you use the ecollar for? I am asking specifically about e-collar, rather than corrections in general, since this thread is about e-collars and how to use them.


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2008)

I don't, nor do I foresee any need for my personal Schutzhund purposes....so far. That said, I did buy one a couple years ago thinking I'd be using it in short order.

However, I'm getting very close to using it for chasing game on our off time. "Crittering" if you will. That seems to be the threshold where I cease to be more interesting. Not that I haven't tried. That I'd have to learn how to do.

Your'e right, though. Major derailment with the other stuff. 

Sorry!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Connie, quit skimming, as I am sure most of you are doing. Here is where she is talking about the down, as she is doing Sch, and I don't see where else this would happen other than the down.
> 
> QUOTE: No walking back and forth to your dog,
> 
> ...


Uh-huh.

She wasn't talking about the down, and you both made the same (good, IMHO) basic points:

_*...* *I use the collar for finishing stuff, the dog already knows what is expected.*_


_*... I laid all the foundation training on my dog without the e 


*P.S.

"Skimming is the reason that these dipshits think that I CALLED them a dipshit"

OK. That made me laugh.

_


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Steve I wasn't implying you were off topic, I was trying to limit my question to e-collar so that I wouldn't veer off course, as I'm prone to do!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Steven Lepic said:


> Am I way the **** off base here?


Not in my opinion. 

And there were others who said:

_... I use the collar for finishing stuff, the dog already knows what is expected._

and

_... I laid all the foundation training on my dog without the e_


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> .....The e-collar can be used to speed up or sharpen up exercizes as well as to give a correction with no body language or from a distance. Many times the problem with corrections is how easily dogs read our most subtle "tells". So these "tells" become a command. No more "tell" with an e-collar.


 
Steve: I've gone and come back. After thinking about it I realize I didn't ask you what I wanted to know. Is your issue with Lou's method that you do not agree with using the e-collar as outlined because you don't like the method or the way it's used in general?


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Oh forget it. I just went back and read my last post and it still doesn't make any sense!!!!:-&


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

My website says,


> Remember the essence of Ecollar training, give the command and make the dog uncomfortable. *Use gentle guidance to get the dog to perform the proper behavior. Make the dog comfortable. * [Emphasis added to show the part that Steve managed to leave out when quoting me]


Steven quoted me out of context and again failed to give me credit for what I've written. Steven is there some reason that you think it's OK to commit plagiarism? 

Somehow I again missed where it says in that statement that "my stated purpose is to stress the dog." Can you point it out? 

When doing this the discomfort lasts for about one second. Then the dog is rewarded by having the stim stop. 

Earlier I wrote,


> When people use the clicker (or the method) with free shaping, there's nothing done with the sole intent to minimize the stress. The trainer just stands around waiting for the dog "to offer" a behavior. If the dog doesn't not guess right, and it's purely a guess on his part, nothing happens except that he knows that _something _is desired by the trainer, but he has NO IDEA what it is. THAT causes stress. He wants the treat/toy but can't get it. THAT causes stress.


Somehow Steven managed NOT to give the context of my full statement in his selective quoting. 



Steven Lepic said:


> I didn't mention spontaneous shaping.


You mentioned clicker training and free shaping is one use of it. 



Steven Lepic said:


> Now you're cherry picking methods to suit your discussion.


You're the one who brought up the clicker. 



Steven Lepic said:


> In fact, you're offering the worst case scenario of one method


You brought up the clicker to contrast with my use of the recall. You didn't mention any specific use of it so I picked one. Stress is present throughout it, I just picked what I thought was the most obvious. 



Steven Lepic said:


> and contrasting it to the best case scenario of YOURs.


I'll contrast it to ANY of my scenarios. 



Steven Lepic said:


> Not valid.


I disagree. Sure it is. 



Steven Lepic said:


> You're also comparing different varieties of "confusion".


I don't think so. I don't even think that there are "different varieties of 'confusion.' " That’s just more nonsense that folks who favor the so-called "kinder, gentler methods" dream up to try and show how their work is somehow different than other training methods. Confusion is confusion. The dog doesn't understand what is expected of him. He wants something but does not know how to get it. That can be something he wants, like a treat, or something he wants to stop, like a stim. 



Steven Lepic said:


> #1. A dog is given a whole bunch of choices, without a lot of guidance, regarding how to achieve a reinforcing stimulus. I suppose that creates confusion, yes. You say there's stress involved...but it might not be apparent.
> 
> #2. A dog is given a whole bunch choices regarding how to stop a punishing stimulus.


Steven this is a complete mischaracterization of what I do. The dog is NEVER given "a whole bunch [of] choices." He's given NO CHOICE! At the instant that the stim starts, he's pulled by the leash towards the handler. As soon as he takes a couple of steps in response to that guidance, the stim is stopped. Please show us where this "whole bunch of choices" is present. 



Steven Lepic said:


> Also confusion.


The confusion comes because the dog doesn’t yet know how to make the discomfort stop. 



Steven Lepic said:


> You say stress IS apparent. In fact, enough that it's _best to stop on a positive note and give a reward._


The act of stopping the stim is rewarding. It's –R. If the handler wants to praise or give a treat that's fine but I've found that doing so during the earliest stages of this takes away from the dog's learning and focuses him on the handler instead of what's happening to him. 



Steven Lepic said:


> You're saying #1 is just as stressful as #2?


I'm saying that #2 is NOT what happens. I don't know where you got this from but it's probably because of a misinterpretation on your part. 



Steven Lepic said:


> What's more, one can greatly narrow the choices in #1 with additional inductive means (luring etc)


In my protocol the dog has NO CHOICE. Since you say that this lowers the stress of free shaping, imagine how much it lowers the stress when used with my method. 

In any case many don't use luring. I've talk to many people who ACTUALLY BRAG that they can train their dog without touching him at all, as if that was some measure of how good a dog trainer they are! 

Many brag that their dog offers behaviors in the hope of finding the correct one. I had one trainer who bragged that her dog started running up and down on the seats of the front row of chairs at her seminar trying to find the "right behavior!" If he doesn’t guess the right behavior the stress continues. Luring may shorten the length of time that it occurs. But it's still there. 

Not knowing the answer to a problem, how to get the treat, how to make the stim stop causes stress. My method clearly shows the dog how to achieve comfort. Free shaping allows it to continue until some dogs become frantic, throwing behavior after behavior until the right one randomly appears. Luring reduces the amount of time that the stress occurs but it doesn’t completely stop it from occurring. 

My method physically guides the dog with the leash into the right behavior. That's faster than waiting for the dog to respond to the movement of the treat or toy. It's faster than he can respond to luring. It happens at the instant that the stim starts and stops about a second later. In luring, the dog's movement is behind the movement of the treat/toy. And as long as the dog isn't given the treat/toy he's stressed. That can go on for quite some time if the dog doesn’t lure properly. 



Steven Lepic said:


> Additionally, I've been addressing one narrow aspect of training.


Actually the subject of this thread is getting a dog weaned off an Ecollar for a trial. That's pretty narrow. You're the one who took it off that topic into this discussion. My first post on this was right on target. Liz brought up the question of "fairness" but that was still on topic. YOU are the one who's drifted off topic. That's fine with me as many threads drift. But the OP may find it uninteresting. 



Steven Lepic said:


> I'm not contesting a complete absence of "stress" in any phase of learning, I'm talking about the application of stim to a green dog and then expecting him to sort things out.


Steven this is ANOTHER misrepresentation of what I've written. The dog is NOT left "to sort things out." The protocol is quite clear in this and I have no idea where you have gotten this idea. Please show us where you think my protocol says this. 



Steven Lepic said:


> when there is clearly a less stressful alternative.


The fact that you say that your method is "less stressful" is just your opinion. I disagree. I think there's just as much stress in it. Perhaps more, because it may go on for quite some time. Stress in mine lasts for about a second at each repetition. Yours may go on for minutes for each rep, waiting for the right behavior. 



Steven Lepic said:


> The variety of stress "which might not be apparent to the trained eye" is LESS than the variety of stress which _is completely apparent to the untrained eye._ Isn't that safe to say?


Sorry but I can't decipher this. Can you rephrase it?


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Earlier I wrote,


> Pressing the button, pulling the dog towards the handler and as soon as the dog starts to move toward the handler DOES provide "immediate clarity."


And this,


> As soon as he starts to walk towards you, that is, he takes 4–5 steps in response to the pulling pressure of the Flexi, release the button.





liz shulman said:


> 4-5 steps towards you is a far cry from "as soon as" and "immediate".


It's within one second. 



liz shulman said:


> That would be the first step towards you - or if you're _really_ good, it would be when he looks at you and begins to shift his weight.


Spoken like a true theorist (no slight intended). I've done this and the results are not as good. It takes LONGER for the learning to occur. AND few owners will have timing that good. My articles were written for those who are new to the Ecollar and who may not understand learning theory. 

Doing it this way would have the stim continuing for quite some time instead of for about one second. Remember the dog in the video who looked down when he felt the stim? He didn't look at the owner or the trainer. He looked at the ground or his chest where the "stick was poking him or the bug was biting him." Standing around waiting for him to look at the owner or to take the first step might take minutes, all the while the stim is continuing. 



liz shulman said:


> Yup. I agree here. That's a problem with seminars. People don't generally learn the method well in just a seminar. Seminars can be great for an introduction to something, or they can be great if they use a method you already use and it takes that method further, but to attend a seminar and then think you can be proficient at it is a huge problem.


I don't know anyone who thinks that they can learn any method at a seminar. I think that people realize that attending a seminar of this kind, is just a "quick look behind the curtain." It allows them to ask questions and to see (since many people are visual) for themselves what the method looks like, to see how the dogs respond to it and to get some guidance in the basics of the method. The seminar gives them an opportunity to do some hands on work with the trainer "at their elbow" to correct some basic errors. 

Only after going home and trying it will people really learn how to apply it. Having attended the seminar they are more likely to contact the seminar giver and ask questions than they would of a "complete stranger" that they know only through his writings. I usually have those people phone me to discuss their issues. 



liz shulman said:


> I do advocate positive motivation.


"Positive motivation" is one of those terms invented by the trainers who favor the so-called "kinder, gentler methods." I have no idea what it means but it does SOUND very nice. I'd guess that you want people to think that your dog is obeying because he wants to obey and not to avoid something. But it's the same thing really. Dogs trained with Ecollars WANT TO OBEY so they don't get stimmed. Dogs trained with the so-called "kinder, gentler methods" WANT TO OBEY to get reinforced. Either way, they want to obey. 

Use of this phrase is more about _emotions and feelings _than dog training. It's part of the sales pitch. 



liz shulman said:


> I also use corrections after the learning phase.


Probably most people in the US use the Ecollar in that fashion. 



liz shulman said:


> I agree that there can very well be stress involved in the positive methods. I've seen it. I've seen it in my own dogs.


Thanks. MANY people won't admit that. 



liz shulman said:


> Just to clarify here, what I find unfair is the use of automatic corrections - correcting the dog even though he is performing the behavior. It's not the use of an ecollar that I find unfair.


That was my understanding of your comment, but thanks for confirming it. 

Liz quoted Steven Lepic


> #1. A dog is given a whole bunch of choices, without a lot of guidance, regarding how to achieve a reinforcing stimulus. I suppose that creates confusion, yes. You say there's stress involved...but it might not be apparent.
> 
> 
> #2. A dog is given a whole bunch choices regarding how to stop a punishing stimulus. Also confusion. You say stress IS apparent. In fact, enough that it's best to stop on a positive note and give a reward.
> ...





liz shulman said:


> Well, yea. both methods can be stressful if done poorly.


I Agree. 



liz shulman said:


> With negative reinforcement training (which is what the low stim ecollar use that Lou outlines is) stress can be greatly reduced also by directing the dog. Which is outlined on Lou's website. The problem being that in the case of the recall (and I haven't read all the rest recently) the NR is coming too late.


I disagree. It's coming too late if a marker is being used but since the dog is still moving towards the handler, the timing is acceptable. As I said, I've tried it the way the theory says is best. It wasn't. 



liz shulman said:


> As for #1 above, I have seen very apparent signs of stress caused by clicker training.


It's present in any learning situation.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Earlier Liz wrote,


> As for #1 above, I have seen very apparent signs of stress caused by clicker training.





Steven Lepic said:


> Done rightly, or done wrongly?


I've seen it done rightly. As I've said, I'm only talking about the methods done properly. 



Steven Lepic said:


> Problem is, all this apparent stress keeps popping up with the stimming DONE CORRECTLY with, I'll repeat again, unlearned dogs being introduced to new skills.


I've already pointed out where it occurs with marker training, especially in free shaping. It occurs anytime a dog is being taught new skills. 



Steven Lepic said:


> _Press the button, make the dog uncomfortable._ That's _the foundation._


Missed it by THAT much, lol. *THE FOUNDATION * is this, (from my site)


> Remember the essence of Ecollar training, give the command and make the dog uncomfortable. *Use gentle guidance to get the dog to perform the proper behavior. Make the dog comfortable. * [Emphasis added]


 



Steven Lepic said:


> Am I way the **** off base here?


Only in thinking that there's no stress in the so-called "kinder, gentler methods." 



Steven Lepic said:


> Do we see signs of stress in cats being trained with proper clicker methods?


Not that I know of. They just turn and walk away. Dogs aren't cats and comparing them in this fashion is a good way to lose focus and get confused. Dogs are also not dolphins, orcas, seals, sea lions, rats, chickens, children, or anything else.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

liz shulman said:


> I've thought about using the method on one of my dogs, but for many reasons opted not to. The issues I have is in releasing the button 4-5 steps into a recall and in correcting a dog even though he is performing the desired behavior.


Nothing stops you from trying it your way. If you do please report your results back here. As I said, I tried it when I was developing my methods. The results were not as good.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Steven Lepic said:


> Picturing a pristine marker training scenario, at worst the dog is being rewarded for a bunch of random crap because the handler's timing (for whatever reason) is not in sync with the HANDLER's objectives. As far as the dog is concerned, it's raining treats....unless you're administering a bunch of clicks, catching yourself, and then witholding the reward.
> 
> Now...I can certainly imagine it being stressful for YOU since things aren't going YOUR way. But what exactly was going on to make the dog wierded out?


You'll find that the dog isn't learning what the owner wants him to be learning. As you say, the owner will soon be stressed and that runs right down the leash (even if one isn't in use). And so in the situation you've described, stress is present in the dog. But in that situation the dog is COMPLETELY powerless to stop it. He also has no idea of what's causing it. It will continue to build until the owner gives up. And every time the owner tries again, it will start anew because the dog has no idea what started it or how to stop it.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Steven Lepic said:


> The collar is 100% beside the point. E-, prong, choke, b.b. gun, Keanu Reeves' acting ...doesn't matter. It's the intentional application of discomfort and invariable confusion and stress_ at a point_ where it's not neccesary.


I disagree. I think that stress is a natural occurrence in any learning situation. It's a result of the confusion that occurs when the animal doesn’t know what the trainer wants, but knows that he wants _something. _ Whether that's a treat/toy or for a stim to stop, it's present. 

Most of those who favor the so-called "kinder, gentler methods" just won't admit that it's there. Some will and have.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Steven Lepic said:


> However, I'm getting very close to using it for chasing game on our off time. "Crittering" if you will. That seems to be the threshold where I cease to be more interesting. Not that I haven't tried. That I'd have to learn how to do.


http://loucastle.com/critter.htm


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

PMs abound, and while there's no way I'm gonna say "Please do it this way," I can point out that an insistence on sentence-by-sentence hair-splitting results in people with differing POVs not bothering to refute. Steve has the stamina (so far), but I gotta say that there are several others who do not, and just PM their frustration.

So.... I will just put it out there that multiple page-long posts of quote-answer-requote-re-answer seems to net mostly people who can't be bothered to read it any more. Or at least they are the ones who take it to PMs because the thread makes them nuts.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

It is all so much clearer now.

Lou is a typing madman. LOL


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

WOW!!! i don't know if it's good or not that a thread i started (which question was answered on page 1, BTW) has generated all "this". 

i think the discussion is good, with the caveat that connie posted above--the hair-splitting stuff takes away from the good stuff. reminds me of my older sister who will hair-split, logic a person to death. but i guess we all have to have "something" to do


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> It is all so much clearer now.


AH-HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

yeah--with you on that jeff and connie both. i do feel better--skip fr page 1 to 9, and it's covered.


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