# Teaching Forced Fetch Part 1



## Larry Krohn (Nov 18, 2010)

http://youtu.be/_-PSiodtgOk


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## Mark Horne (Oct 12, 2006)

And your point being?

Do you think this is good or bad, is this what you do or don't approve of, what would you like from your thread?

If it helps this is the method I use as a novice but it works very well;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fi9Yos8fhME&list=PL4E098B19798DF7C5&index=7

Mark


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Mark Horne said:


> And your point being?
> 
> Do you think this is good or bad, is this what you do or don't approve of, what would you like from your thread?
> 
> ...


Mark...that is Larry in the video, I believe he is posting it for the purpose of sharing his training approach to the forced fetch.

I do wonder if this method will work on any dog though, there are plenty of dogs out there that I would personally not stick my hand in their mouth. 

thank you for sharing the vids and your methods Larry, always enjoy them..


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I taught many of my early dogs, terriers included, to fetch with the ear pinched between my thumb nail and the "choke" collar. It was very effective. 
I've also see it done on the ground and the table where the dog was streatched between two pinch collars till it opened it's mouth to either object or to bite the person doing it. The dumbell was then shoved in the dog's mouth.
My last terrier (Jrt) I taught with markers and motivational. He was 5-6 yrs old at the time and had no interest in chasing anything that didn't have fur on it. Give up a squirrel or bunny he caught? HELL NO!
After the marker training he would happily bring me anything he had in his mouth. Give up that bunny or squirrel for a game of tug? Absolutely! lesser reward then the bunny or squirrel? For sure but the game of tug was so imprinted that is over rode the "better" reward. Don't ask me why it works but I've also done it in herding with my Sch III, CDX GSD and sheep/ducks brought out more drive then any sleeve or tug ever did.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

curious ... what would be the reasons for a trainer to choose teaching a "forced" fetch ?


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Larry Krohn said:


> http://youtu.be/_-PSiodtgOk


Nice explantion and work. Hope to see the follow up vids soon.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

to add to my post ...
i know a few different techniques to teach this, but my Q still stands.
- so to be more specific 
...is there anything you do prior to starting this training to evaluate the dog and decide which method you are gonnna use or do you just master one way and apply it to any dog, etc 

and altho i could be wrong since i don't know the dog and the handler didn't say anything about previous training , imo the rottie was more of a demo dog, not a dog being trained that never had a dumbell in its mouth b4.
- at least for me, using a demo dog that already has a general (or more advanced) idea of the behavior being "taught" is not nearly as useful as working with a dog that has no prior conditioning to the behavior

plus a new Q :
do you think it matters if the dog has had any out training b4 u train this and does it matter at what stage of the overall training you should start to train it ?


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

almost forgot 
nice explanation Larry


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

rick smith said:


> curious ... what would be the reasons for a trainer to choose teaching a "forced" fetch ?


because they want the dog to retrieve.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i thought it was taken for granted i meant "choose a forced retrieve over ANOTHER method that did NOT use force" .... 
- which is why i added to my post 

there's more than one way to train this behavior (imo)
just like there is more than one way of teaching the out (imo)


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Joby Becker said:


> because they want the dog to retrieve.


I have the same question as rick. Why force? Why force over shaping?

I've seen forced retrieves taught and I know it's effective and will get full points for correctness at trial, but there's an oh **** oh **** oh **** element to the dog doing the retrieve. Not my style of training, but I'm way too nice to my dogs and not cleaning up at trial.


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## Larry Krohn (Nov 18, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> Mark...that is Larry in the video, I believe he is posting it for the purpose of sharing his training approach to the forced fetch.
> 
> I do wonder if this method will work on any dog though, there are plenty of dogs out there that I would personally not stick my hand in their mouth.
> 
> thank you for sharing the vids and your methods Larry, always enjoy them..


Thanks Joby appreciate that very much


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## Larry Krohn (Nov 18, 2010)

rick smith said:


> to add to my post ...
> i know a few different techniques to teach this, but my Q still stands.
> - so to be more specific
> ...is there anything you do prior to starting this training to evaluate the dog and decide which method you are gonnna use or do you just master one way and apply it to any dog, etc
> ...


Thanks Rick and very good question. The truth is unless you have a hunting dog, bird dog to be more specific, or for certain dog sports, and if course a service dog I don't really see a need to train the fetch. Many just want their dog to be able to pick up whatever they ask or hold different objects but that is mostly for the pleasure of the owner. Although my dogs will fetch anything I ask I really don't need them to do it for any specific reason. I hate to train it because it can be tough but it definitely helps your skills as a trainer. Most trainers want their own dogs to fetch but I think it's just because we want our own dogs to be able to do a lot of things. Luca, my young male Mal in the video will chase anything but has not been taught the fetch and there is a big difference. He is also very mouthy with whatever I throw for him, but not in bitework. I do like my dogs to have a solid out before I teach this but I start training the out day 1 at eight weeks old. Luca has a very good out and I do think that helps with the forced fetch. The Rotty in the video is a very nice dog but he already knows the fetch and hold very well. Another thing is if I put any object and ask Luca to put it in his mouth he will bite it hard, I teach fetch means very soft.


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## Larry Krohn (Nov 18, 2010)

leslie cassian said:


> I have the same question as rick. Why force? Why force over shaping?
> 
> I've seen forced retrieves taught and I know it's effective and will get full points for correctness at trial, but there's an oh **** oh **** oh **** element to the dog doing the retrieve. Not my style of training, but I'm way too nice to my dogs and not cleaning up at trial.


I use a free shaping method also Leslie. Takes a little longer but the results are very good. Just depends on the dog. Some take to the free shaping very fast but what I have seen is the high drive dogs will learn the fetch through free shaping but bite very hard whatever they are picking up. I want the fetch to be very soft. I did a video a long time ago to demonstrate the difference in the bite with my Rotty. I sent him for a bite on a helper, he bites very hard of course, then I called him off and told him to fetch an egg that my 6 year old daughter was holding. The bite on sleeve is hard but fetch means very very soft. I've been trying to find that video but I haven't had much luck. Think ill do it again. But again yes I like free shaping also


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## Larry Krohn (Nov 18, 2010)

Mark Horne said:


> And your point being?
> 
> Do you think this is good or bad, is this what you do or don't approve of, what would you like from your thread?
> 
> ...


Very nice Rotty


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

rick smith said:


> curious ... what would be the reasons for a trainer to choose teaching a "forced" fetch ?


I was taught and have seen many examples that a "forced" retrieve is almost always 100% reliable without any chewing or hesitation, whereas a motivational retrieve is not so much or requires more proofing and more lengthy training. If performed correctly with a strong dog the dog will always retrieve in the manner taught, no chewing (aside from adjusting the object in the mouth), with or without distraction, without fail. That is the advantage. Yes, it can be brutal, and the dog will probably not look enthused about the task, but he/she will retrieve.


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

Almost always 100%???????


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

MANY folks believe the forced retrieve is more reliable. I have no problem with those that train it but I disagree with it being more reliable. 
Regardless of the method the reliability is in the training skills, not the method. I've seen many dogs on both the Schutzhund field and the AKC ring that were forced trained. My early dogs were also but I've also seen many of these forced training dogs refuse a retrieve, just stand and look at the dumbell, avoid the dumbell, etc. 
I look at a dog making a mistake as a training failure not a method failure. 
If the reward is high enough why would any dog refuse if taught correctly? 
If the correction is high enough why would any dog refuse if taught correctly? 
"If taught correctly" is the key to reliability.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re: "Many just want their dog to be able to pick up whatever they ask or hold different objects but that is mostly for the pleasure of the owner."

that made me laff 
i teach my dogs to bring their food bowl back into the house whenever i use a bowl. damned if I'M gonna fetch it for them //lol//


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

I use a forced retrieve with all of my dogs. Its reliable and secure and leaves the dog no options to make decisions on wether he wants to retrieve or not. There are also a great amount of benefits to the forced retieve and Larry mentioned some of them already. 

I prefer my dogs to hold the object of the retrieve in between their front teeth, no juggling the object around or tossing it in order to prevent dropping the object or swallowing it. Also some objects are easy to bend or break or crush which with a forced retrieve can be easily prevented. Nothing worse then getting a 9 or 5 mm shell back from your dog and its crushed into a tiny heap of unrecognizable metal. Forced retrieve also prevents damage to the dogs mouth with sensitive stuff like a key or shell which when chomped on can do damage to gums, teeth, soft pallete... Not to mention a forced retrieve will calm the dog down since it knows it has no option other then to bring back the object which also prevents the slamming down of its face into the soil, grass, mudd...asphalt! 

Nowt worse then having a dog overly bouncy and snappy on the search as he slams his face into the surface he is searching and you having to check for lost front teeth afterwards or cleaning the blood of his busted nose or split lip. Some dogs are just that exitable in their searching :lol:


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Konrad Most used the pinch collar to force the dog to pick up the dumbell, but as soon as the dumbell was picked up, he released the hold.

I honestly find this method much *cleaner* than trying to force the dog's mouth open to hold the dumbell which often results in twisting of the head, etc.

The force comprises two components. It is first of all mechanical in that the dog's mouth is brought into the "snap" near of the dumbell. Secondly, it works with "pain" so that the mouth is reflexively opened. Secondly, the dumbell is brought within about 30 centimetres of the dog's mouth on the earth and the command "Bring" with a sharp twist of the collar ensures that the dog picks it up immediately.


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## Larry Krohn (Nov 18, 2010)

I never add pain in the forced retreive. It's just not my thing and I find it unnecessary. No toe pinch no ear pinch. At some point I may add low level e collar but only for a dog that is very well trained with the e collar.


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## Noel Long (Mar 13, 2013)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Konrad Most used the pinch collar to force the dog to pick up the dumbell, but as soon as the dumbell was picked up, he released the hold./QUOTE]
> 
> Was there not a step or two before the dumbbell is placed on the ground? I'm having a hard time imagining taking a dog who has never seen this before, collar pinching it, and it will know the answer to his problem is to reach down, towards, pick up, and hold this piece of wood resting on the ground.
> 
> To another poster, I've seen plenty of FF'ed dogs roll, chew, etc. If you want to research this, sit down with a cup of coffee and a bunch of field trialers.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Larry, thanks for posting your method.

Bob,

A question that came up while reading this is a how to keep the dog soft mouthed on the item motivationally. Any ideas or trouble with that? 





Bob Scott said:


> MANY folks believe the forced retrieve is more reliable. I have no problem with those that train it but I disagree with it being more reliable.
> Regardless of the method the reliability is in the training skills, not the method. I've seen many dogs on both the Schutzhund field and the AKC ring that were forced trained. My early dogs were also but I've also seen many of these forced training dogs refuse a retrieve, just stand and look at the dumbell, avoid the dumbell, etc.
> I look at a dog making a mistake as a training failure not a method failure.
> If the reward is high enough why would any dog refuse if taught correctly?
> ...


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

How does a forced retrieve result in a softer mouth than a retrieve trained another way?


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

leslie cassian said:


> How does a forced retrieve result in a softer mouth than a retrieve trained another way?


Or even untrained. I'm also curious as to the training steps in this. I trained Khira to retrieve a dumbell a few years ago--motivationally. My Call Ducks occasionally escape from their pen. Khira will find one and bring it to me dropping it at my feet. She's so proud of herself, she stands there wagging her tail. Several years ago, she picked up one of the Khaki Campbells out of a stock tank. What was remarkable in all of this was watching her take great care not to do any damage. Khira will pick up anything and bring it to me--never damaging it--more so out of pack drive than training--or so I believe.

T


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> Larry, thanks for posting your method.
> 
> Bob,
> 
> A question that came up while reading this is a how to keep the dog soft mouthed on the item motivationally. Any ideas or trouble with that?



The only issue I've personally had was one of my GSDs would hold the dumbelll very loose when in the front sit waiting for me to take it. All I did was give a light slap on the dumbell to make it slide in his mouth. When that happened he would clamp down on it tightly and quickly learned to hold it tight. 
With the sleeve he never had an issue. 
I used to do a lot of fun retrieves with sticks and anything smaller then my thumb he'd snap in half. Why this never transferred to the dumbell I can't say but it never did.
I not had any issues with them being to hard mouthed on the dumbell although I've seen a couple of dogs that really got chewy on them. I believe that's a training issue and/or a nerve issue.

FWIW the hardest biting dog I've ever seen is a show line that was in total fear of punishment for NOT taking the dumbell or sleeve. In the blind you could read it all over him and he hit like a battering ram. On the long bite not so much. That was close to avoidance all the time. 
Imported SchIII show line. ](*,)


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> The only issue I've personally had was one of my GSDs would hold the dumbelll very loose when in the front sit waiting for me to take it. All I did was give a light slap on the dumbell to make it slide in his mouth. When that happened he would clamp down on it tightly and quickly learned to hold it tight.
> With the sleeve he never had an issue.
> I used to do a lot of fun retrieves with sticks and anything smaller then my thumb he'd snap in half. Why this never transferred to the dumbell I can't say but it never did.
> I not had any issues with them being to hard mouthed on the dumbell although I've seen a couple of dogs that really got chewy on them. I believe that's a training issue and/or a nerve issue.
> ...


Bob, I think Dave was asking for "motivational" ways to teach the dog TO HAVE A SOFT MOUTH. (could be wrong here)..


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i really don't care how anyone teaches a retrieve, but i do take issues with statements such as : "MANY folks believe the forced retrieve is more reliable."

- those kind of statements can never be proven unless you had a dog who was taught both ways and you devised some weird test to compare each method of training ... which is not likely to ever happen ](*,)
- you cannot compare two dogs with different training to verify which method of training was more "reliable". for that matter, it's hard to compare two dogs for anything and a waste of time imo
- to me it's ridiculous to ever try and say one method of training is more reliable than another. for a retrieve or any other trained behavior

....the bottom line as i see it : if it's TRAINED it's reliable and if it's not reliable it's not trained yet ....... duh

1. people who say one type of training is better than another have no way to prove their point
2. people learn one way and often never try another way because ... "why should they ?"
- i doubt many people try out new training methods just for the sake of trying something different
- they might if they are having a problem, but eventually i think they go back to what they previously learned
3. the more successful a trainer gets, the more narrow minded they get, and even more so if they only work with one type of dog for one type of training goal

my only real question in this thread was whether someone has a reason, based on the DOG, for choosing one way over another. 
...and i wasn't expecting an answer ... based on 1 thru 3 above //lol//


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I'm still trying to figure out how the forced retrieve results in a soft mouth and the need for a soft mouth. First of all, with force, how do you communicate to the dog which is which and which is desired? Would love to know the training steps in this--with force or compulsion. You said, your Mal bites hard? What do you consider hard? Does he damage the object? 

T


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## Larry Krohn (Nov 18, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I'm still trying to figure out how the forced retrieve results in a soft mouth and the need for a soft mouth. First of all, with force, how do you communicate to the dog which is which and which is desired? Would love to know the training steps in this--with force or compulsion. You said, your Mal bites hard? What do you consider hard? Does he damage the object?
> 
> T


Yes Terrasita, he will damage everything he picks up. They learn a soft mouth by using your hand first. You can adjust if he starts biting on your hand too hard but they usually don't. I don't have all the answers, but they just get it. They learn very quickly not to chew and not to clamp down. Like I said there are several ways to teach the fetch and I do use other ways such as free shaping but for the more difficult dogs I like this way the best. Some dogs will start picking things up right away with minimal training and that's great if you have one of those dogs but it doesn't always happen like that. As far as communicating to the dog fetch means pick that up and hold it without biting down. I also don't use a hold command. Fetch means pick up and hold, that's it. Just like if I give a down or sit command I don't say stay. Stay is understood, down means down, that's it. They don't need two commands. As Ruck mentioned its all in the training. Train things properly and the dogs gets it. Make your training not so clear and the dog will have confusion. With this dog he was not liking the hand and continued to fight it. So I took two days off from training this and went back. He did great, calmed right down. I don't know the scientific reason for this but I have always done that, a couple days break and the dog comes back better. Maybe it's like taking a couple if days off from the gym, your body heels and comes back stronger. I don't really know but it seems to always help


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

rick smith said:


> i really don't care how anyone teaches a retrieve, but i do take issues with statements such as : "MANY folks believe the forced retrieve is more reliable."
> 
> - those kind of statements can never be proven unless you had a dog who was taught both ways and you devised some weird test to compare each method of training ... which is not likely to ever happen ](*,)
> - you cannot compare two dogs with different training to verify which method of training was more "reliable". for that matter, it's hard to compare two dogs for anything and a waste of time imo
> ...


its a true statement Rick, many people do believe its better.
I doubt that they are saying it to prove a point...

if i say "many people think its better", then I am saying that based on knowing that the others are of the opinion it is better, I am not saying it to prove anything.

Even if I say that "I think its better" I am not trying to prove it to anyone.

what bugs me is when people use questions like...

Why do you feel it "needs" to be done that way? 
Why do you "need" to use force (or whatever)?

maybe people just like the results they get with it, and want to train it that way because they think it is better..

almost has a negative feel to it...like how some people ask things like..

why do you "HAVE" to use a table in training? when in fact no one HAS to use a table for anything, they just do, because they want to.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

First off, there are many, many ways to teach the retrieve.

Larry, the method with the glove with one's hand in it was introduced over here a few years back but I never heard it of it being to make a "soft mouth.

My Dad alweys said he had a dog with a soft mouth that could carry a raw egg. Apparently this is needed in gun dogs so that they do not damage the prey. Could be. My Dad also had Airedales and Greyhounds but they had anything but "soft mouths" 

It was the "usual" way of things to either choose "playful" or "forced" retrieves when I first started in dog Sport. I chose "forced" and but my dog had "slit eyes" when I shoved the dumbell into his mouth. I redid it and got him back to retrieving.

Rick, of course you can train a dog to reliably Train to retrieve the dumbell. If he is a "chewer", sometimes a tap on the nose like Bob said, can stop this. It worked for my Briard.

However, at some point in training there is need for "force". Force is not necessarily brutal. Very often getting the dog to carry the dumbell whilst on the lead and is a good way to ensure that the dog does not drop it. Then comes a sit by your side and eventually, a sit in front of you.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Sorry, forget the above post:

First off, there are many, many ways to teach the retrieve.

Larry, the method with the glove with one's hand in it was introduced over here a few years back but I never heard it of it being to make a "soft mouth.

My Dad alweys said he had a dog with a soft mouth that could carry a raw egg. Apparently this is needed in gun dogs so that they do not damage the prey. Could be. My Dad also had Airedales and Greyhounds but they had anything but "soft mouths" 

It was the "usual" way of things to either choose "playful" or "forced" retrieves when I first started in dog Sport. I chose "forced" and but my dog had "slit eyes" when I shoved the dumbell into his mouth. I redid it and got him back to retrieving.

Rick, of course you can train a dog to reliably Train to retrieve the dumbell. If he is a "chewer", sometimes a tap on the nose like Bob said, can stop this. It worked for my Briard.

However, at some point in training there is need for "force". Force is anything you make the dog do that he does't want to. Very often getting the dog to carry the dumbell whilst on the lead and trotting, is a good way to ensure that the dog does not drop it. Then comes a sit by your side and eventually, a sit in front of you.

Konrad Most didn't believe in punishment. His theories still hold today. I put "pain" especially in inverted commas because I had translated from German.

If there is anyone around who has never inflicted "pain" on their dogs, either mentally or physically, either intentionally or not, please raise their hand!!

However motivationally one teaches ones dog, one learns at some point or other, that just tmotivation will not necessarily give you even a "pass" at a trial.

"Forced retrieve" can merely be insisting that the dog retrieves and lets you take it from him and that he does not chew the dumbell. 

The dogs you see retrieving and pushing the dumbell right up into the handler "could" be trained from stage 1 in force but, as Alice, I think it was, said:

"A dog should never be in a grey zone", then for me force would be preferable, whatever it entails.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Joby said;

"Bob, I think Dave was asking for "motivational" ways to teach the dog TO HAVE A SOFT MOUTH. (could be wrong here).. :smile:"

Thanks Joby!

Dave, if that's the case I can't honestly say I've seen the need to teach a soft mouth. The hold is steady or it isn't. My dog was to soft in the hold but only in the front sit and that was easily corrected.
Both my GSDs have been taught the retrieve with markers but I've not seen the issue of to soft or to hard a mouth in mine or any other dog trained in this method. 
I've seen chewy holds but that's a training issue and or a dog issue. 
Did I misunderstand your question? 
With a bird dog that clamps down the old timers made a retrieving dummy out of wood that had nails sticking out of it all over. No doubt that would teack a soft mouth but again, in AKC or Schutzhund I've never looked at it other then a steady hold or not.


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## Larry Krohn (Nov 18, 2010)

If there is a better way to teach a soft mouth and to prevent being mouthy I'd be interested in hearing it. With the hand in the mouth you can stop the dog from mouthing and also stop too much pressure being applied very easily. It's really hard to fix both any other way, at least in my experience


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Larry Krohn said:


> If there is a better way to teach a soft mouth and to prevent being mouthy I'd be interested in hearing it. With the hand in the mouth you can stop the dog from mouthing and also stop too much pressure being applied very easily. It's really hard to fix both any other way, at least in my experience


I'm sorta like Bob. Its never been an issue. For me its an issue of your relationship with the dog and pack drive; or possibly nerves. Once the pack drive is there, they are't going to destroy what's yours. For me that includes live animals. As for the firm hold, one of my dogs didn't like the dumbell in her mouth and would kind of let it hang there. I captured her biting down and marked it. After several repetitions, hold meant firmly hold with her teeth--no shifting, rolling, etc. I've never had a force trained retrieve on a dog. The hardest exercise in the obedience ring for my dog is to ignore the dumbells being thrown in the adjacent rings. I have to put them up on the refrigerator here.

T


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## Larry Krohn (Nov 18, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I'm sorta like Bob. Its never been an issue. For me its an issue of your relationship with the dog and pack drive; or possibly nerves. Once the pack drive is there, they are't going to destroy what's yours. For me that includes live animals. As for the firm hold, one of my dogs didn't like the dumbell in her mouth and would kind of let it hang there. I captured her biting down and marked it. After several repetitions, hold meant firmly hold with her teeth--no shifting, rolling, etc. I've never had a force trained retrieve on a dog. The hardest exercise in the obedience ring for my dog is to ignore the dumbells being thrown in the adjacent rings. I have to put them up on the refrigerator here.
> 
> T


What does relationship and pack drive have to do with being mouthy? It's more about genetics


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Larry Krohn said:


> What does relationship and pack drive have to do with being mouthy? It's more about genetics


Mouthy, to me, can be nerves or conflict. Some dogs don't like the feel of certain things in their mouths or have an aversion--like metal or even things of a certain size/feel. Destroying things I send you for, relates to pack drive. If its theirs, they can kill it. If its mine, its do no harm--animate or inanimate.

T


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

certain dogs will crush stuff that they get in there mouth, and need to be taught not too. that is not conflict or nerves it is desire to bite shit. some dogs dont look at stuff like its yours, they look at your shit and want it for themselves.


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## Larry Krohn (Nov 18, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> certain dogs will crush stuff that they get in there mouth, and need to be taught not too. that is not conflict or nerves it is desire to bite shit. some dogs dont look at stuff like its yours, they look at your shit and want it for themselves.


Dead on Joby


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

You don't have a good relationship with the dog, and you arent' building "pack" drive. 

This was where my question lay for Bob. With hard biters, how do you control the bite pressure? lighten it up motivationally. 



Joby Becker said:


> certain dogs will crush stuff that they get in there mouth, and need to be taught not too. that is not conflict or nerves it is desire to bite shit. some dogs dont look at stuff like its yours, they look at your shit and want it for themselves.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Dave Colborn said:


> You don't have a good relationship with the dog, and you arent' building "pack" drive.
> 
> This was where my question lay for Bob. With hard biters, how do you control the bite pressure? lighten it up motivationally.


Dave, not sure what you are saying. are you saying I dont have a good relationship with my dog? or that I am not building pack drive? 

I think I have an excellent relationship with my personal dogs, personally


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

I don't even know what that is...You'll have to look elsewhere for help, as I will for getting a hard biter to be soft on a retrieve





Joby Becker said:


> Dave, not sure what you are saying. are you saying I dont have a good relationship with my dog? or that I am not building pack drive?
> 
> I think I have an excellent relationship with my personal dogs, personally


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Dave Colborn said:


> I don't even know what that is...You'll have to look elsewhere for help, as I will for getting a hard biter to be soft on a retrieve


use the force, young Jedi.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> You don't have a good relationship with the dog, and you arent' building "pack" drive.
> 
> This was where my question lay for Bob. With hard biters, how do you control the bite pressure? lighten it up motivationally.



I can honestly say I've never had that issue. I did comment that my older GSD will snap a stick in a heart beat. How or why that doesn't transfer to the dumbell I have no idea. If it did I would expect to have teeth marks in the dumbell. None ever! It's just something I've never came across. That includes a number of dogs I've taught the retrieve with the ear pinch but that's 20 or more yrs back since I last did that.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> certain dogs will crush stuff that they get in there mouth, and need to be taught not too. that is not conflict or nerves it is desire to bite shit. *some dogs dont look at stuff like its yours, they look at your shit and want it for themselves.*


My point exactly--relationship.

T


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Bob, I understand that it never showed itself for you so you wouldn't have had to thought a way to train it motivationally to make a dog softer. The simple answer would be figure out how to elicit a softer mouth and mark it I guess. Just wondering if anyone had done it and used it reliably.



Bob Scott said:


> I can honestly say I've never had that issue. I did comment that my older GSD will snap a stick in a heart beat. How or why that doesn't transfer to the dumbell I have no idea. If it did I would expect to have teeth marks in the dumbell. None ever! It's just something I've never came across. That includes a number of dogs I've taught the retrieve with the ear pinch but that's 20 or more yrs back since I last did that.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Joby, 

It's like you are talking about the world being round to someone who believes it flat.

People learned it wasn't flat by seeing it. 

Any ideas?



Quote:
Originally Posted by *Joby Becker*  
_certain dogs will crush stuff that they get in there mouth, and need to be taught not too. that is not conflict or nerves it is desire to bite shit. *some dogs dont look at stuff like its yours, they look at your shit and want it for themselves.*_

My point exactly--relationship.

T


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

But what if in this case the world is flat? Hmmmmm.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> My point exactly--relationship.
> 
> T


please expound of what you mean. like explain it out in a few sentences so that it is clear exactly what you mean.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Dave Colborn said:


> Bob, I understand that it never showed itself for you so you wouldn't have had to thought a way to train it motivationally to make a dog softer. The simple answer would be figure out how to elicit a softer mouth and mark it I guess. Just wondering if anyone had done it and used it reliably.


I have a chompy crusher. And I solved the "formal retrieve" to my satisfaction with motivational methods.

She is the kind dog that loves to fetch stuff, slam it back at you and want to fight/play with you with it...and if that is not an option she will be happy just to have it and wreck it. If I wanted her to fetch something like a chapstick tub, or glasses case she would crush it, with something like a pvc pipe she would want to roll it back in her mouth and gnaw on it with the back teeth and so on..

She would never just bring something and drop it at my feet naturally or deliver it "calmly to hand" naturally.

For formal training I started just isolating the hold with marker style stuff with something not self rewarding to crush. (plastic dumbell). We did have issues with her wanting to roll it back in her back teeth, but we worked through it.

After this she could fetch the plastic dumbell, and would hold it calmly, but would still maybe mouth it a little bit on the way back sometimes. If I transitioned to a more self rewarding retrieve item (like lets say a FR style sock, or something crushable), all the self rewarding chomping came back.

What seemed to make the difference for me is my dog is VERY toy motivated and LOVES to engage in the tugging/fighting with me. Once the the dog REALLY understood markers in the retrieve, I started marking for the fast turn around when picking up the object (not letting her do the high speed loop where she had more time for deciding what she had in her mouth was self rewarding). I wanted her to be thinking SOOOO much about playing with what I had (what ever toy I was using as a reward for retrieve), that she wasn't even thinking about what she had in her mouth.

I started rewarding the pick up, turn back to me, and at various places on the return. What I mean is she could drop the retrieve item when marked and launch back at me to get a toy/tug session.

This took a lot of time, but she stopped mouthing things I asked her to fetch because I always made what I had better. I actually had to put MORE drive into the exercise so she would not just think what ever she was fetching was the reward, since having and crushing and chomping on stuff was self rewarding to her.

Eventually, I am talking kind of a long time now, she has better understood and generalized the formal fetch, and I can do it in lower drive with various objects without crushing and chomping. I do have to be careful about using the "formal" set of taught cues, because she still likes to pick up all manner of stuff and wreck it naturally lol. I am not sure we are at the level where I could get her to gently formally fetch an egg lol, she just has so much energy and drive to get stuff, she is clearly not a gentle dog. But a couple of years ago I would NEVER have let her try to fetch my TV remote for example...unless I wanted a to buy a new one. So there has been a lot of progress made.


Anyways, that was likely a confusing description. And not a solution for those wanting a low drive retrieve (service work and so on). Just thought I would share my motivational battle with the retrieve with a chomper since there was some discussion about that. :razz: 

I am not against the FF at all (done well of course), and came close to using the e collar for it (I use it for other things) at a point when I was really frustrated. 

Thanks for the videos Larry!


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Nearly all dogs will run after a thrown dumbell.

One way to ensure a good retrieve is to let the dog sit, place the dumbell in his mouth, remove yourself (at first backwards) and then call him "bring".

This can be done without force. If the dog chews, a tap on the nose can stop it.

Once this sits, you can throw out the dumbell. Often, doing this work in the line can provide good results.

However much fun the dog has in retrieving, at some point it has to realise that this is "work" and we have to insist on obedience.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I don't see how the world could be flat. I think it would have to be concave in order to balance on that turtles back.

Dave, you question has been rolling around in my head all day. No real answer other then what you commented on about trying to mark the moment. That would be tough to do unless it was very obvious when the dog clamps down or relaxes the grip. 
My question to you is why is a soft mouth necessary if the dog isn't chewy and outs easily??


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Nearly all dogs will run after a thrown dumbell.
> 
> One way to ensure a good retrieve is to let the dog sit, place the dumbell in his mouth, remove yourself (at first backwards) and then call him "bring".
> 
> ...



Excellent!
To many want to teach the retrieve by tossing the dumbell then hoping it brings it back. The dog hasn't a clue unless it's a natural retriever
The dog has to learn it backwards as you commented. We call that back chaining.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

even dogs with a natural prey chase and retrieve will often drop the item when they get back because they have no clue you want it held. i also think this is IMproperly conditioned in early toss/fetch/retrieve games which makes it even more of a problem later.

so whenever i toss an item, what i have done with any type of dog is give a neg mark and turn my back on the dog as soon as it drops the item. i move away and make them bring it closer. i'll shape it a bit by getting my hands quickly on the item b4 they drop it and help to hold it in the mouth.....than out and some pay

but my biggest goal is to get the point across that if they drop the item it's game over and i'm outta there
- i think there is no reason why they can't learn to retrieve to hand when they retrieve any item


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

What Jennifer said made sense to me. Using really hard undesireable objects if the dog already had a tendency to bite hard might work to my way of thinking. Then use a toy as a reward for the hold. If I have a need, I'll try that.


Bob Scott said:


> I don't see how the world could be flat. I think it would have to be concave in order to balance on that turtles back.
> 
> Dave, you question has been rolling around in my head all day. No real answer other then what you commented on about trying to mark the moment. That would be tough to do unless it was very obvious when the dog clamps down or relaxes the grip.
> My question to you is why is a soft mouth necessary if the dog isn't chewy and outs easily??


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

I thought Jennifer was crazy when I saw her train the retrieve. But I kept my mouth mostly shut and watched. It was very interesting to watch. It probably worked better for her dog then force. I may even have vids of it somewhere Ill check and see if I can find it. 
I ff all of my dogs so far. It seems the fastest way to get where I am going.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

I'd like to see it if she didn't mind. Probably has some nuance to it that doesn't come across completely in the written word.



Daniel Lybbert said:


> I thought Jennifer was crazy when I saw her train the retrieve. But I kept my mouth mostly shut and watched. It was very interesting to watch. It probably worked better for her dog then force. I may even have vids of it somewhere Ill check and see if I can find it.
> I ff all of my dogs so far. It seems the fastest way to get where I am going.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Dave Colborn said:


> I'd like to see it if she didn't mind. Probably has some nuance to it that doesn't come across completely in the written word.


I should be able to come up with some videos from various stages, but it will have to wait a few weeks as I am on the road for work.


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## Larry Krohn (Nov 18, 2010)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> I have a chompy crusher. And I solved the "formal retrieve" to my satisfaction with motivational methods.
> 
> She is the kind dog that loves to fetch stuff, slam it back at you and want to fight/play with you with it...and if that is not an option she will be happy just to have it and wreck it. If I wanted her to fetch something like a chapstick tub, or glasses case she would crush it, with something like a pvc pipe she would want to roll it back in her mouth and gnaw on it with the back teeth and so on..
> 
> ...


Not confusing at all Jennifer. I like that a lot and I'm going to try it. My current mal sounds exactly like your dog. I would love to see the video also, sounds great. Thanks for the description


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> What Jennifer said made sense to me. Using really hard undesireable objects if the dog already had a tendency to bite hard might work to my way of thinking. Then use a toy as a reward for the hold. If I have a need, I'll try that.



I agree that what Jennifer said makes a lot of sense. Much of it is how we taught the motivational retrieve. 
Using the hard object is something I've not really seen other then Mike S with the copper retrieving. 
We used a tug as a reward for a calm hold but, as mentioned, a bit of mouthing is the only problem I had. 

Mike S, with your dog's doing a retrieve with copper have you seen any issues with weak or hard bites on a "normal" dumbell? That is if you even use a dumbell.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

In answer to Ricks question, some people teach a forced retrieve at adolescent age, when the dog is supposedly more likely to 'play up' and if you prescribe to pack hierarchy theory, try to rank up as a means of putting them off the idea.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Matt Vandart said:


> In answer to Ricks question, some people teach a forced retrieve at adolescent age, when the dog is supposedly more likely to 'play up' and if you prescribe to pack hierarchy theory, try to rank up as a means of putting them off the idea.


Actually teaching a motivational retrieve is what finally resolved what I felt was resistance and conflict with my dog and improved our relationship in terms of her pack drive and working for me.

T


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I used motivational retrieve with both my GSDs. 
Thunder, the older one could be taught with any method but I chose markers and motivational.
I would have crushed Trooper with anything more then very mild correction so I avoided it altogether.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Actually teaching a motivational retrieve is what finally resolved what I felt was resistance and conflict with my dog and improved our relationship in terms of her pack drive and working for me.
> 
> T


I concur, I was answering Ricks question.


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