# Puppy Evaluations



## Kimberly Grimm

Although I've seen a puppy evluation before, I've never performed one myself. I've also read a lot of things online, but am curious as to what you guys look for? I'll be evaluating field bred Goldens. Interested in wilderness search.

Thanks!!


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

I'd PM Jim Delbridge. Next, there are probably tons of threads on hunt drive. #1 area of deficiency I've seen lately is inability to change environments and adaptation to new things in the environment.

T


----------



## Sarah Platts

I like a puppy that is overly curious and, even when tired, will go to investigate something new. For instance, puppies been playing but now all sacking out to sleep. Place something different in the pen (which could be you - but don't call the puppies to you), who decides this is more interesting than sleeping?

I like a puppy that tends to sniff and hunt up odor

One that wants to be with me. And if you push him back (reject him) he doesn't take that for a 'no' and comes back at you again.

Drop a metal pan which may or may not produce a startle effect but then want a rapid recovery and goes over to see what make the noise.

Comes up to you when you give a happy 'puppy, puppy' call.

Then I take the one that appeals to me most.


----------



## Nancy Jocoy

Engagement, eye contact but willingness and desire to explore and tough as nails...even as a puppy things should not "disturb it" .... startle ok but then they should be curious.

Just some things. Pups are a bit of a gamble. Make sure you have someone breeding working stock, not show stock.


----------



## Jennifer Coulter

What will be your reward for your program? A dog that tugs and likes the "fight/interaction" with the subject and handler is very important in our avalanche profile, but some people in wilderness I have seen seem to be okay with dogs that are only food motivated, or it is enough if they will chase a toy or some such thing.

I would say that evaluation should start with the parents of the puppy, hopefully you have been through part already. You can check hunt drive and attitude in parents much easier than an 8 week old pup!

I do NOT always like the puppy that makes a lot of eye contact and always wants to be around me. I value independence A LOT in my search dogs. I like a pup that can be engaged while I play a little mini tug or retrieve, but as soon as I stop being engaging, is off exploring and ignoring me.

I like to take pups to a place they haven't been with breeder and separate them one by one from litter.

Check confidence, how they are by themselves, just out in wide world, noises and so on.

I check if they will tug with soft ragging article (sleeve of sweatshirt or some such thing)

Check if they will chase and posses some kind of small toy

Take them on some unstable stuff, like playground equipment, slippery surface and so on.

I honestly do not check their "nose" at 8 weeks. ( I do check hunt drive often as they start to mature) At 8 weeks I am more curious about if they will have the motivation and attitude to use it when the going gets tough in my program.

Of course all of this should be in discussion with an experienced breeder if you only get to see them for one hr on one day. Maybe the sleepy one the day you checked was up all morning causing shit and is super confident and drivey! Or the breeder knows something about how they mature...

Or you could just pick the one with the biggest head, darkest colour or cool white patch on its chest! That can work too


----------



## mel boschwitz

I have hounds, which are a little different in evaluations, but I dont care how good the sniffer is if the dog isnt immediately confident in new environments. He doesn't have to be super social, but he needs to be confident around strangers from the get go. I know some people are okay with working a dog over some fears around strange people, but I feel when the going gets tough or scary the dog's initial instinct will kick in. On the older dogs I am looking at I want to make sure they are at least dog neutral, but with a pup that young you probably wont be able to test that outside of the litter, so it will be up to you to raise him to act appropriately around strange dogs.

I just got a new hound this weekend. He's going to be a foster. He impressed me right away because he immediately searched out and worked a trail I had laid over varying terrain, climbed over some obstacles, met new people in a parking lot (new area) and willingly walked thru sliding doors and onto a slippery surface at my local tractor supply (then attempted (and succeeded) to trail the lady who had gone in ahead of us. Lol).

The sniffer part is the easy part if everything else is in place. Lol

Good luck!


----------



## Howard Gaines III

Issues with loud sounds (-) and any willingness to carry an object (+)


----------



## Kimberly Grimm

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I'd PM Jim Delbridge. Next, there are probably tons of threads on hunt drive. #1 area of deficiency I've seen lately is inability to change environments and adaptation to new things in the environment.
> 
> T


Ivan is good in completely new environments, but if it's an old environment with something new - i.e. public transit buses in the parking lot - he notices it in a heart beat and is really cautious.


----------



## Kimberly Grimm

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Make sure you have someone breeding working stock, not show stock.


The pup will be field bred lines. Bitch already has her Master Hunt Title. They haven't picked a stud yet.


----------



## Kimberly Grimm

Jennifer Coulter said:


> What will be your reward for your program? A dog that tugs and likes the "fight/interaction" with the subject and handler is very important in our avalanche profile, but some people in wilderness I have seen seem to be okay with dogs that are only food motivated, or it is enough if they will chase a toy or some such thing.


In my very limited experience, any of the dogs that were only food motivated ended up washing out. This might not be the case for all dogs, but so far it is for the ones I've been able to train with. Our master trainer isn't fond of food rewards either, so I won't be going that route.

I'm okay with either fetch or tug. Since she'll be a retriever, I think I'm gonna try the ball route first.


----------



## Kimberly Grimm

mel boschwitz said:


> I have hounds, which are a little different in evaluations, but I dont care how good the sniffer is if the dog isnt immediately confident in new environments. He doesn't have to be super social, but he needs to be confident around strangers from the get go. I know some people are okay with working a dog over some fears around strange people, but I feel when the going gets tough or scary the dog's initial instinct will kick in.


I highly doubt I'll ever willingly take on a fearful dog again. A lot of people just said socialize, expose, etc. and he'll get better. Ivan never got better. Genetics? Critical first months with original owners? Maybe my efforts were somehow lacking, but I certainly invested a lot of time trying to help Ivan become more confident.


----------



## rick smith

imho, the best way to pick a pup for what you want to do with it is to get out with wilderness SAR teams and work with them in any way they will let you. as you meet the handlers ask how they picked their dogs and find out how many picked them as pups and trained them
- of course you will be looking at finished products, but at least they WILL be finished products; of dogs who made the grade and not someone's opinion of what to look for. try and find some goldens in that group 

- also there are plenty of SAR links all over the net on selecting a dog for SAR potential. have you already read them ?

puppy testing and evaluation is highly subjective


----------



## rick smith

re: "A lot of people just said socialize, expose, etc. and he'll get better."
....which could also mean a lot of people are WRONG in using that approach to deal with fear issues 
- i have heard TOO many people tell me how they "socialized" the heck out of their dog and it never got better so it is not surprising to hear it again 

immersion theory doesn't always work that well with people either 

but hard to be definitive without actually seeing the dog and how you handle it. i evaluate both when i work with that kind of problem and it is usually a combination of both

i hate to use CM as an example, but try and dig up the episode where he worked with a dog who had been raised in a lab as a guinea pig to test canine vaccines....the dog was about as big a nerve bag as you can get....even with his methods the dog got SIGNIFICANTLY more confident in a normal environment


----------



## Kimberly Grimm

Of those that I know, the reason why they picked the dog they did is a mix. 

One admittedly picked the dog that curled up in her lap. He is so mellow and laid back you'd never think to pick him. But when he's given the command to search, he's great.

One was a service dog drop out that the handler got for free.

There are now three on the team (one certified, one about to, and one just starting out) from the same Lab breeder. Confidence in the breeder played a big part in these picks.

Right now a team member is picking a GSD pup and I did get to see the litter evaluated once. This is the only formal evaluation I've actually witnessed.

I don't know anyone working a Golden.

I have read a lot online, but I like to see things in practice as well.


----------



## Sarah Platts

So are you interested in a GSD or a Golden? The reason is that the mindset and general characteristics are not similar between the breeds.


----------



## Jennifer Coulter

Sarah Platts said:


> So are you interested in a GSD or a Golden? The reason is that the mindset and general characteristics are not similar between the breeds.


I agree with you that there are differences in breed characteristics. That said, my list I posted re: puppy evaluations would not change one bit if I was looking for a pointy eared or floppy eared dog.



Kimberly Grimm said:


> In my very limited experience, any of the dogs that were only food motivated ended up washing out. This might not be the case for all dogs, but so far it is for the ones I've been able to train with. Our master trainer isn't fond of food rewards either, so I won't be going that route.
> 
> I'm okay with either fetch or tug. Since she'll be a retriever, I think I'm gonna try the ball route first.


I agree with your trainer about food motivated only dogs.

Don't count out the retrievers as tug motivated!!!!! I have worked a Duck Toller in SAR and he was a tugging fighting machine. So are all my favourite labs in our profile!! The labs I love are fast striking, full mouth biting, don't want to out (until properly trained).....and so on.


----------



## Jennifer Coulter

Kimberly Grimm said:


> I don't know anyone working a Golden.
> 
> .


We have had several nice field bred goldens in our program over the years.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Kimberly Grimm said:


> Ivan is good in completely new environments, but if it's an old environment with something new - i.e. public transit buses in the parking lot - he notices it in a heart beat and is really cautious.


Would make me want to explore how good he is with changing environments if he notices new things in he environment and is cautious. Is it just the bus itself or any new thing.

T


----------



## Kimberly Grimm

I could be missing signals, but a completely new environment doesn't seem to phase him. 

It's just things he sees as out of place. We were training in a new wooded area behind a team members house. He started the search fine. When we came across the quad the victim had used to ride into the woods, it probably took him a full two minutes of evaluating the quad before he was ready to move on. 

We were walking in a nearby town we'd been in before. We were passing people and everything was going fine until we came to where someone had a camera tripod setup. I don't know how long he'd have investigated it as I kept us moving.

In that same parking lot where the public transit buses were, a tripod type thing sitting in the lot also got his attention one day.

I'm interested in a Golden, not a GSD.


----------



## rick smith

????
are these instances in ref to Ivan and if so where/how is the fear being displayed ?


----------



## Kimberly Grimm

Yes, Ivan.

Avoidance/growling/staring before he'll slowly start working his way up to the object in question.

E.T.A. Sorry should have been other thread...but by the time I get back to the forum I've been booted and after having to login numerous times I lost track of which thread I was in.


----------



## Jim Delbridge

Sounds like a fear response unresolved from puppyhood. Have you tried taking him downwind of the object/shape that bugs him and then hunting it with him? Sounds stupid, but can work. Set up an area with multiple tripods to work through together over and over as it's not a big deal.

I have a friend in Colorado that has two NAPWDA certified Goldens(HRD), two different personalities, but both great working dogs.

Jim


----------



## Kimberly Grimm

Photography is a hobby of mine so a tripod is no longer an issue. 

We also started going for quad rides and we're good there now too. 

But I just never know what's going to startle him. I had wooden pallets delivered and they were leaned up against the corner of my house. They're right near his potty area so he'd seen them several times - probably during daylight mostly. 

Anyhow, they'd already been there a couple of days when Ivan and I came around the side of the house playing with his flirt pole one night. The pallets startled him and he jumped back barking at them. He did then continue playing with the flirt pole, but kept glancing back at the pallets. When we called it quits and actually walked past them to go inside, he had to give them a sniff to make sure what they were.

Pallets in and of themselves shouldn't have been an issue. They were frequently in the burn building we use for training. Was it a night time thing? Because for the majority of two years nothing was normally leaning up against the house there?


----------



## Jim Delbridge

Had his eyes evaluated?

Jim


----------



## David Winners

Jim Delbridge said:


> Had his eyes evaluated?
> 
> Jim


I was thinking the same

David Winners


----------



## Kimberly Grimm

Yes, they have been evaluated twice. 

At one year he was diagnosed with a "cataract" (not the term they actually used, but provided to me to explain what the spot was like) in his left eye. They said no big deal, not likely to change. At two year's there is now also a cataract in his right eye. Once again no big deal, not likely to change. 

I don't have the reports in front of me and can't remember the exact terms they used or the locations, but the impression given was they were small, not likely to change, and "insignificant."

I know dogs are better at seeing movement rather than details, but I don't know how significant or insignificant a small cataract would be to a dog's vision. I don't know how important the location of the cataract is in terms of vision.

Ivan will be getting re-examined in Dec.


----------



## Kimberly Grimm

Okay, I found what I had posted on DT (DobermanTalk) at the time.

--------

During Ivan's eye exam last year they diagnosed his left eye with a very faint nuclear opacity. They said it was unlikely to progress.

During this year's eye exam they diagnosed Ivan with incipient cataracts in both eyes. 

I'm assuming since they are categorizing Ivan's left eye as an actual cataract now, it did progress to some extent.

The cataract in his right eye, I believe, is posterior.

Once again I was told they were unlikely to progress, but to recheck in 6 to 8 months.


----------



## Jim Delbridge

That most likely explains why he may take a long time with unfamiliar shapes. Dogs' primary sense is the nose, but with blockages in both eyes, he's seeing the world fuzzier than the normal dog. He's using his nose to explore what his eyes would explain away quicker. Does he have any issues with night searching such as running into something once in a while by accident?


Jim


----------



## Kimberly Grimm

Ivan is no longer training for SAR  . . . thus my quest for a Golden. 

Ivan has ran into things in low light on a few occasions. We didn't do a lot of night training and when playing at night we are normally in an open field. 

I know he ran into the hitch of my friend's Harley trailer one night, but he was also zooming around with his Lab friend. I didn't see it, just heard it, so can't say if it was a vision problem or a rough housing problem. 

The last time we trained in the burn building, shortly before "retiring" him, he did run into something. And the last two times we worked that building I would say he was panicky - worse than when he was a puppy not used to the metal steps and floors.

After he was diagnosed with cataracts in both eyes, I tried to research online and get an idea of what his sight was like, but they all talked about "functional" vision.


----------



## rick smith

could've saved some time if you had gone a bit beyond "fearful dog".....

my Q's would now be how u gonna deal with a dog going blind ? ... but that would get even farther off "puppy evals", except maybe to be sure your "eval" includes that genetic eye probs had been tested in the line


----------



## Kimberly Grimm

He's been fearful from the beginning. The faint opacity at one year of age and now the second incipient cataract at two certainly didn't bring out the fearfulness. I realize it's not helping, but it wasn't the cause. 

And I have yet to be told blindness is even a possibility. Both visits were "they are small and not likely to progress" no big deal type of affairs. I am, however, waiting for the other shoe to drop. Pessimist that I am.

If he was a normal, confident dog - blindness would be no big deal. And actually, even with him being fearful, I'm not too concerned. I'm already "managing" him.


----------



## Kimberly Grimm

And this discussion regarding Ivan was supposed to be in my Intro thread, but I accidentally posted in this one and sidetracked my own thread. Brilliant - LOL! :-D

I've read a couple evaluations were people take scent with them just to see if a puppy is interested. What type of scent is used? I would think using food should interest any puppy and not really tell you much. Are we talking a scented oil? Cadaver? Should the container be hidden to make sure the pup is interested in the odor and NOT the new container it's in?


----------



## Jim Delbridge

Dogs going blind over time do amazingly well in a "known environment." Their nose pretty much guides them and they quickly memorize steps. Change the environment and they will stumble until they adjust. It was the right decision to retire the dog as search is all about continually new environments.

When I test puppy litters, part of the "foreplay" is trading information with each breeder to 1) prepare them for what I'm going to do with the puppies; 2) ease their concerns that I won't leave creating a bunch of fear responses in the puppies for future owners to deal with; 3) determine health risks, how involved the breeder is with the puppies before conception and after; 4) determine health testing and guarantees;
5) Explain why I don't want them in scent of the puppies during testing.

The golden breeders have a whole slew of tests the breed is checked for with the higher end breeders which raises the cost of the puppy. If the breed is known to develop genetic defects then it behooves the handler to go to a breeder that tests. The other option is to go to hardier breeds. I've had one ranch breeder check with all previous puppy buyers from previous litters from the same lines to check for defects. She didn't have to, but the idea of one of her puppies getting nationally certified gave her incentive.
Sadly, I've gotten much better working dogs from ranch breeders who raise their Airedales to hunt coyotes and feral hogs rather than the conformation and title lines. I'm washing my current youngster because of his work ethic. My 6 year old came from a cattle ranch and other than a fractured coronoid process at 18 months, he's solid both in body and mind. Research shoed the elbow could have been genetic or it could have been because I had to start working him at 16 months because of local demand. His other elbow is fine, so I'm thinking it was because he tends to follow scent despite the terrain.

My point is the conformation breeders tend to test out the wazoo for health concerns the breed is known to suffer. A working ranch breeder tends to cull out the genetically weaker puppies simply by survival. They tend to breed the dogs that worked best in their environment. My first two working dogs came from lines where the parents routinely went "walk-about" on a sheep ranch to go hunt coyotes up in the mountains. They always came back and the coyotes went away, so they bred those pairs. 
I'm sure if you are looking at an established Golden breeder that they check eyes in the line. It should be in writing on their website or in their paperwork, just look for it.
Like Labradors, Goldens are so popular that they eventually become prone to the whole gamut of problems if not checked.

Jim


----------



## Kimberly Grimm

Hips, elbows, heart, eyes, PRA-prcd, PRA-1 and Icthyosis are all tested for with the bitch. Up the line hips, elbows, heart, eyes and PRA-prcd is covered. They haven't picked a stud yet.

We did discuss testing some. The breeder uses the Volhard PAT.


----------



## Jim Delbridge

If the puppy is to work HRD, then by all means bring some source. When I test, I use multiple scent sources. I collect a sock worn recently that should stink of live scent. I set up two food sources, usually meat located at a Subway sandwich shop on the way to testing. I did cooked hamburger in one test as it was on the way. As I work an HRD dog, my maze will have live scent first(the sock), food, and then tissue-based human remains at the far upwind section of the maze. I have no problem if the puppy pauses at the first two scent sources, but I'm only interested in the puppies that leave the first two for the human remains source. You can package them in a variety of ways where the scent is prevalent, but the puppy can't get to the source.
I'll also have mesh containers in the testing area with one containing human bones and one containing human teeth to observe the puppy's reaction as it goes by.
I'll also have a non-human tissue source(cold cuts, hamburger, etc) in a suet cage in the middle of an 18 inch diameter agility tunnel to see if the puppy will pursue to scent.
When I tested the six year old at 6 weeks, he was on his second audition and I let him roam the area while I was writing up a summary of the litter. He smelled roast beef in the tunnel (not fixed to the ground), backed up about three feet then took a run and leap into the tunnel. His landing caused the tunnel to roll down a gentle slope about 10 feet on grass. I rose and looked inside the tunnel to see him wrapped around the suet cage trying to eat the roast beef, totally non-phased about the rolling.
I took him away from the roast beef and put it away, so he moved about the area and tried to get to the human bones then smelled the human tissue again and went to it, wrapping himself around it....yes, at six weeks of age.

If testing for live, I create a maze with large appliance boxes with one holding a quiet child, one with animal remains, and one with more roast beef. The boxes have holes punched in the bottom for the puppy to get better sniffs. 

I do test for ball drive using puppy tennis balls and it's nice to have a high ball drive for a ready-made reward system, but I want a dog that obsesses on the scent of HRs from the start more than anything else.

The one I'm washing can solve scent problems very well, but decides when he will tell me about it. That I can't have.

Jim


----------



## David Winners

Jim Delbridge said:


> If the puppy is to work HRD, then by all means bring some source. When I test, I use multiple scent sources. I collect a sock worn recently that should stink of live scent. I set up two food sources, usually meat located at a Subway sandwich shop on the way to testing. I did cooked hamburger in one test as it was on the way. As I work an HRD dog, my maze will have live scent first(the sock), food, and then tissue-based human remains at the far upwind section of the maze. I have no problem if the puppy pauses at the first two scent sources, but I'm only interested in the puppies that leave the first two for the human remains source. You can package them in a variety of ways where the scent is prevalent, but the puppy can't get to the source.
> I'll also have mesh containers in the testing area with one containing human bones and one containing human teeth to observe the puppy's reaction as it goes by.
> I'll also have a non-human tissue source(cold cuts, hamburger, etc) in a suet cage in the middle of an 18 inch diameter agility tunnel to see if the puppy will pursue to scent.
> When I tested the six year old at 6 weeks, he was on his second audition and I let him roam the area while I was writing up a summary of the litter. He smelled roast beef in the tunnel (not fixed to the ground), backed up about three feet then took a run and leap into the tunnel. His landing caused the tunnel to roll down a gentle slope about 10 feet on grass. I rose and looked inside the tunnel to see him wrapped around the suet cage trying to eat the roast beef, totally non-phased about the rolling.
> I took him away from the roast beef and put it away, so he moved about the area and tried to get to the human bones then smelled the human tissue again and went to it, wrapping himself around it....yes, at six weeks of age.
> 
> If testing for live, I create a maze with large appliance boxes with one holding a quiet child, one with animal remains, and one with more roast beef. The boxes have holes punched in the bottom for the puppy to get better sniffs.
> 
> I do test for ball drive using puppy tennis balls and it's nice to have a high ball drive for a ready-made reward system, but I want a dog that obsesses on the scent of HRs from the start more than anything else.
> 
> The one I'm washing can solve scent problems very well, but decides when he will tell me about it. That I can't have.
> 
> Jim


Thanks for the awesome description Jim. 

David Winners


----------



## Jim Delbridge

My testing has evolved over the years. As Rick stated earlier, testing can be subjective. To avoid this, I either go solely by the breeder's colored collars or I write a number in each puppy's ear with a sharpie. I go solely on the testing results. I always "tune" my spreadsheets for the desired personality and traits either I am looking for or the handler I'm testing for has expressed a desire for. I always warn new handlers to be careful what they wish for as rarely do new handlers realize the price for an obsessed working dog. I may pass on an entire litter. I have passed on lots of litters. I go by the numbers in which puppy(ies) gets a second audition. The first audition is mainly to weed out the "weak sisters". The second audtion is when I pay attention to the puppy and it's really more free flowing in the test area. I want to see the puppy hunting scent on its own. I know some handlers who toss a piece of hot dog out into tall grass (for a young puppy that might mean 8 inches high) and time how long the puppy works at finding the hot dog. I know one handler that waits until the puppy starts looking then takes the hot dog away wanting to see truly how long it takes because she worries the puppy finding the hot dog will skew the results.

With a breeder that does their own Volhard temperment testing, I would take their observations with a grain of salt. First ask if they did the testing themselves or if they had someone else do it. Some breeders have wised up that they do skew the results and they have another breeder test for them, ....but.... gently ask 20 questions to determine their testing process. One breeder was going to have a breed "expert" test her litter for me. I traded email with the "expert" to find out that she tests litters in her master bathroom....great for house dogs, i suppose. Worthless for a working dog meant to go through the worst humans and nature have to offer.
Also, I've learned to ask if the breeder does a daily toe pinch on each puppy to prepare them for getting their nails trimmed. If so, this often skews the pain reaction/tolerance test. With such breeders, I've learned to pinch twice at increasing pressure as the average response of the puppy tends to be more honest. They've learned to endure one pinch, but they respond different with the second. (and yes, I switch toe webs to pinch, not twice on the same spot.)
This recent puppy has me flummoxed as I don't see any way to test for work ethic. This puppy was an experiment because the conformation/hunting title airedale community just swore up and down that the stock they are producing now can be working dogs. It was an expensive experiment and I wish I had been proved wrong, but I really think that the breeding programs now are geared more towards producing a child-friendly buddy that is more play driven than work driven. Personality-wise, I have no complaints with this dog. He's the best buddy I've had since my wolf-dog, but I can't take hiim out to work as I can't trust him. He'll satisfy the wife in that she was worried that I had taken both airedales with me on the last seminar and that left her only with a geriatric pointer to protect her on my land. So, Thorpe will stay home and do his duty barking at non-existent strangers as it's really difficult to get on my land uninvited.

Unfortunately, in the SAR world there are a lot of handlers that justify how their dogs act as the handlers may not have true working dogs to compare to. If a hunter had a dog like Thorpe and he missed a bird, the hunter would most likely say it just got away. I looked at another breed (that I won't mention) and one of the breed experts stated that the breed was known for being selectively "on", i.e. some days it would rock the agility course and other days it would find ways to entertain itself. To me, that's a red flag.

I require the dog that never needs a command. You open the truck door and it's working. It's really only happy when it's working. The rest of the time its resting up to go working again. I need the intensity and the obsession. I see that in ranch dogs, regardless of breeds. Many law enforcement are forced to go out-of-country to find similar intensity and focus in their breeds of choice. This is mainly because American breeders seem to be more interested in creating runway stars than grunts that get the job done. I've ticked off way more of my share of breeders with my comment of "I don't care what the dog looks like. I need it healthy and I need it to be ruled by its nose." 
There are a lot of dogs out there with titles on them for the sole reason to up their value in breeding. I don't particularly care about that. I want the dogs that came from lines that survived working for their humans in hostile environments that they dog wouldn't have any other way.

Hope that rant makes sense,

Jim


----------



## Sarah Platts

Kimberly Grimm said:


> We did discuss testing some. The breeder uses the Volhard PAT.


I had the opportunity to test my youngest pup using this. It must be done on Day 49 and by someone relatively unknown to the puppies to be deemed valid. Interestingly enough, a year later, I pulled out the original testing sheets and followed up with as many of the current owners of the littermates as I could. Astonishingly accurate. 

I'm waiting on a pup right now and trying to talk myself into the cost of flying out there just to run the test on day 49 and then go back and pick up the following week.


----------



## Jim Delbridge

It doesn't have to be done on a specific day, but it does need to be done between fear periods. I've performed these tests from week 5 to week 6.5. I avoid performing it from week 7 to week 9 as most breeds experience a fear period during this time.

The Volhard tests are just a good start. I have about 17 tests including theirs. If the breeder carries the puppies around all the time with hand under chest, the hanging test tends to produce void results.

Jim


----------



## Kimberly Grimm

Thanks for all the feedback guys. A lot of aspects of puppy testing I had not thought of. I knew I was going to test in a new location, but it didn't occur to me to ask where she did the testing - or who performed it - and it should have. Also about how their routine handling of the pup - carrying it/nails - could affect the results. I'll see what I can find out from the breeder.

I intend on doing live find. I won't have appliance boxes or a kid with me to help test as the breeder lives in TN and I am in PA. So if I did a line up of socks, food, and human remains. If the puppies all zero in on the food, what does that tell me? Should I then take away the food and see how their focus shifts? How long would a good live find dog spend smelling the socks? Just trying to figure out how to interpret the results.


----------



## Jim Delbridge

For live find, you need scent sources that you are interested in, that means you need a live stranger. Ask the breeder if she can manage to have someone foreign to the puppies there the day of the testing. It can be another perspective owner. They get the benefit of your testing as well. The boxes help keep the nose work clean, but the next best case is to hide someone for the puppy that's not you. I would still have fresh articles to toss about the area, socks, sweaty t-shirt, etc. But, I really don't think skin rafts are the source that live find dogs or trailing dogs follow. I'm pretty sure it's due to out-gassing of the human body including breathing, but our bodies outgas various chemicals. You don't want the breeder to be your source as her scent is familiar to the puppies. With articles only, you'll know the dog can be an article dog, but you won't be sure it will obsess on live humans.
As was discussed in that blog link I sent you, a live find dog needs to be comfortable in unsteady surfaces, so I'd include a test with either bubble-wrap sheet, a big folded tarp that will bunch and fold when the puppy walks on it, water puddle, low-to-ground teeter-totter, etc. A combination of all. This is to be your work partner, what areas will you expect it to be comfortable in? That's how you direct your testing on a micro-scale for the puppy's size. I'd include an agility tunnel. You can get one at ToysRUs if you can't find an agility course supply. You can even toss a towel over one end to see if the puppy will go into a darkened tunnel. 
I use food distractions in my testing because HRD dogs are ultimately food driven or survial driven. An HRD dog obsesses on decomp scent because it's a genetic extreme of the dog that rolls in "dead" to mask its scent. As I do a lot of historic work, I want a dog that likes bones and teeth as well. Not all live find dogs obsess on food.
I do a prey drive test with a racoon-like tail on a fishing pole where I place the tail in grass before each puppy and then draw the tail through the grass and across the puppy's line of sight. I do this because high prey drive is a detriment for an HRD dog. You don't want your HRD dog to take off after a deer, rabbit, etc. You have to decide how much prey drive you will accept. I've observed from zero reaction to catching the tail and being lifted off the ground while the puppy tried it's death shake on the tail in the air. Belgian Malinois almost always fall into the latter end of the scale....what's going to happen if your victim runs on the dog? When I hide for live dogs and they become lazy, I often race away after they find me. I don't see a golden chasing a victim, but I'd include the prey drive test in your evaluation.

For the live scent, you can simply place someone lying down in tall grass upwind of the testing area. At the least, you'd want to see the puppy do head turns toward the "victim." I'd only accept at minimum the puppy that goes into the grass to find the source of the scent. Your victim can play with the puppy if it finds them as this is earlier reinforcement.

You need to test for reward systems the dog will like. I take puppy size tennis balls and roll them past the puppies. I prefer the puppy that chases the ball, grabs it, and brings it back to me....yes, at five weeks. I've had breeders argue with me that I have false expectations to want a puppy that retrieves at 5 weeks of age. All of my dogs that I've started with all retrieved at 5-6 weeks and all continued to be ball obsessive through out their lives. Only change was each dog comes to prefer different textures and responses of the ball. My first dog liked a ball that's no longer available. It was very dense rubber ball with a slot in the center for food. She could clean it out regardless of how evil I got in putting any food inside. She also got very competitive at wanting to catch it in the air no matter how hard I through it to the point that I actually bruised the back of her mouth with a fast ball one time. The six year old likes a Kong with a squeaker in it which again is no longer available. Kong now makes a ball with a squeaker in a center shaft but it doesn't bounce the same as a Kong. Each dog had/has its favorite ball, but they are all ball obsessive. The first dog once sat for 3 hours staring at her ball I set up at 8 feet. After 3 hours, she came over to me and started barking and then looking back at the ball. So, we worked a 2 hour negative with a source in an adjacent area so she could finally get her ball. A lot of owners would hate a dog that obsessed on her ball this way. I found it extremely useful.

I also test for tugs and frisbees to see what might trip the puppy's switch.

Sit down and describe to yourself the "perfect dog" you want in all its traits. Figure out ways to test for this or guarantee those traits up front. Just as important, after that, define what you will accept and what you won't. Set up your grading scale to demonstrate your limits and your end goal. In my testing, if a puppy fails only 1 of the 16 criteria, I don't want it. As with the 4 year old I just washed. I invested a lot more that the initial price in his development and it's a bust. I did learn something I needed to know and I have a great companion at the house, but I'm out a partner. Pick well.

Jim


----------



## Kimberly Grimm

I've already been dropping hints that I'd like my father to come with me at least halfway (relative's house) to help with the driving. Guess it's time for me to up the ante and see if I can get him to come the whole way. :-D

The breeder owns a farm, so I don't imagine finding tall grass will be an issue. How far apart should the puppy and victim be? Would it be dependent on air movement? 

Since my most in depth/hands on experience is with Ivan, it's much easier for me to come up with things I don't want. I did like his independence. He'd never wander off or get ridiculously out of sight, but he would range away from me. We've had a lot of "rubber band" dogs who would get a little bit away from the owner and then come back repeatedly. 

Ivan wasn't obsessed with any particular reward - ball, tug, treat, etc. I would say the only toy he's close to being obsessed with is his flirt pole, however it's length wasn't really conducive to being a reward and just trying to play tug with the exact same toy as what was on the end of the pole wasn't enough. So I'd be thrilled with a ball obsessed dog. This is one of my areas of concern.

When I was at N.A.P.W.D.A. nationals the trainer went though a test to determine what reward, if any, the dog was obsessed with. The only part I didn't like is that ONLY a ball could be a moving reward. If a tug was an option, it had to be just laying on the ground without movement. We have a very good live find Lab who's reward is a tug, but if it's just laying on the ground she could not care less about it. It's the active tugging that excites her. However this trainer said if the tug was "the reward" the dog would pick it up regardless.

I've already thought about having different surfaces for the dog to walk on. I actually had wooden pallets delivered for this purpose. Tarps I have. I can easily make a buja board too.


----------



## Sarah Platts

Jim Delbridge said:


> It doesn't have to be done on a specific day, but it does need to be done between fear periods. I've performed these tests from week 5 to week 6.5. I avoid performing it from week 7 to week 9 as most breeds experience a fear period during this time.
> 
> The Volhard tests are just a good start. I have about 17 tests including theirs. If the breeder carries the puppies around all the time with hand under chest, the hanging test tends to produce void results.
> 
> Jim


http://www.volhard.com/pages/pat.php


_"Top Dog Tips: The ideal age to test the puppy is at 49 days of age when the puppy is neurologically complete and it has the brain of an adult dog. With each passing day after the 49th day the responses will be tainted by prior learning._ "

"Later on in the early 60’s more tests were developed to determine if pups could be tested for dominance and submission. These tests determined that it was indeed possible to predict future behavioral traits of adult dogs by testing puppies at 49 days of age. Testing before or after that age, effected the accuracy of the test, depending on the time before or after the 49th day. "


Jiim, I guess you can test whenever you like but this is why they recommend day 49.


----------



## Jim Delbridge

Sarah,
While the Volhards get most of the credit, they didn't invent the temperment tests. I believe the 49 day window was taken from the study documented in "Genetics and the Social Behavior of the Dog" by John Paul Scott and John L Fuller. Even the author states he thinks the experiment had serious flaws as it was artificial. They only studied a few puppies in home environments. The bulk of their puppies were in a sterile lab environment with limited human interaction.

You pick your one day window and I'll pick my ten day window, no worries.

Jim


----------



## rick smith

Kimberly
you got a dog you had hopes for and it didn't work out
you want to be extra careful for the next one cause you don't have enuff funds for a third
you are soaking up a lot of good advice so your pup selection will be adequate
...that pup still might not work, out so why not get a YOUNG dog that has already been tested by SAR professionals and finish it thru continued work with your SAR group
- that would seem like the best way to take the unknowns out of the equation and still allow you to get a SAR dog trained from the ground up
- unless you have some super rigid reason why it has to be a golden i would also not allow any breed bias to affect your choice. either you want a golden or you want a SAR dog. in my experience over the years, a lot of people get breed biased based on a past dog they had or knew, which usually means they are subconsciously "comparing", which imo is not good to do


----------



## Dana Miller

I have a litter of puppies on the ground, so this discussion grabbed my interest. Over the years I have seen several litters evaluated using the Volhard PT (that I also had the benefit of watching grow into working adults) and I don't think I will bother puppy testing with this litter. I have no problem with it, but I have had the best luck just watching puppies play in the yard and taking them on some excursions to the Home Depot and pet stores to see how they deal with the world. I did a quick google search to see if there is any research on the validity of PT and thought this article was pretty interesting:

http://doglifetraining.com/2011/07/puppy-temperament-testing/

Good luck picking your puppy. My best advice is to pick one without any obvious temperament issues and with a personality that appeals to you. Each person likes their own type of dogs (and people). To pick a puppy based on test scores is like picking a mate based on test scores. Go with the one you love as long as he's normal (no extreme behaviors that are out of the norm for the breed). Your training and his genetic destiny will control the rest. 

Oh, and another thing, watching puppies a lot and then seeing what they grew into led me to conclude that I can't predict future working drive very well, just personality, so I might as well pick one I like. I would love to hear if anyone else thinks they can predict which dog will ultimately have the strongest drive to work. That skill would be priceless.


----------



## Jim Delbridge

I run into lots of breeders that tell me they know their puppies better than anyone. If they let me test, I ask them to fill out the forms on the puppies prior to testing with their experience. They get to watch the testing downwind behind a window. Surprises always appear for them. It's the biggest reason you take the breeder out of the equation.

respectfully,

Jim


----------



## Jim Delbridge

QUOTE=Kimberly Grimm;469714]I've already been dropping hints that I'd like my father to come with me at least halfway (relative's house) to help with the driving. Guess it's time for me to up the ante and see if I can get him to come the whole way. 

The breeder owns a farm, so I don't imagine finding tall grass will be an issue. How far apart should the puppy and victim be? Would it be dependent on air movement? 

*Main thing the grass would be for is to prevent visual siting of the human before scent. You'd want to guarantee air movement into the area the puppy would be moving freely through. Think easy problem where you know the puppy is going to get slapped in the face with scent and then you observe how it reacts. I'd personally want a puppy that investigated and then upon finding the human got all happy. I expect you'll see a range of reactions from avoidance to caution. I'm ok with a cautious puppy that overcomes it's concern then hunts anyway, but I would want to see a happy outcome upon the find. Your "human source" should follow your directions on reaction, but it needs to always end on a positive note for the puppy.*

Since my most in depth/hands on experience is with Ivan, it's much easier for me to come up with things I don't want. I did like his independence. He'd never wander off or get ridiculously out of sight, but he would range away from me. We've had a lot of "rubber band" dogs who would get a little bit away from the owner and then come back repeatedly. 

*So, you'll want a dog that exhibits loyalty to you as the tester, but has no problem going off to explore on its own. Usually handlers create the "umbilical" with a dog where they define their comfort zone, but their are dogs that stick close. While such dogs are nice for protection, I don't see a use for them in search work.*


Ivan wasn't obsessed with any particular reward - ball, tug, treat, etc. I would say the only toy he's close to being obsessed with is his flirt pole, however it's length wasn't really conducive to being a reward and just trying to play tug with the exact same toy as what was on the end of the pole wasn't enough. So I'd be thrilled with a ball obsessed dog. This is one of my areas of concern.



When I was at N.A.P.W.D.A. nationals the trainer went though a test to determine what reward, if any, the dog was obsessed with. The only part I didn't like is that ONLY a ball could be a moving reward. If a tug was an option, it had to be just laying on the ground without movement. We have a very good live find Lab who's reward is a tug, but if it's just laying on the ground she could not care less about it. It's the active tugging that excites her. However this trainer said if the tug was "the reward" the dog would pick it up regardless.

*The trainer had a point. If the tug is moving, then the human is the real reward...the interaction with the human. But, I see your point. You can use a fishing pole with a tug on it where the human is removed from the equation and only the toy's movement is present. The tug needs to not emulate a "critter" as that would confuse prey drive with reward response.*


I've already thought about having different surfaces for the dog to walk on. I actually had wooden pallets delivered for this purpose. Tarps I have. I can easily make a buja board too.[/QUOTE]

*If possible, what I would do is work up your testing protocols and grading system now. Then, I'd look for a local litter that you have absolutely no interest in that you could practice with. This way you can work out kinks in the test you haven't thought of. It will also get you in the right frame of mind for testing your more promising litter. That is you should not go into a litter test with expectations of leaving with a puppy. You need to go into the testing like you are managing an audition where the puppy(ies) convince you it is the right candidate. I'm serious in that you need to be able to walk away from a litter. My first dog was found after nine litters. The second dog came from the same breeder, but different lines and I actually ended up testing two litters, one 5 weeks of age and one 10 weeks of age. I wanted a male, but all the males failed. Three females from the younger litter passed the first "audition". Oh, all the puppies were tested in the evening after a blizzard. I spent the night at a local motel then re-auditioned the three puppies the next day. The final test was I took each puppy out to my current working dog and let her check them out as she'd be working with the new puppy (and in my mind, helping the training). She, Dax, was not the most maternal of females and growled at two of the puppies, but licked the head of the middle finalist. So, I went diplomatically and chose that one. It was a good choice. She, Tempe, was one of those dogs that made me look good despite my training mistakes and skills. Pancreatic cancer took her after only five years, but she was awesome. My third dog, working now, Murphy, was after testing nine litters. With Thorpe, I let my ego get in the way. I did test three litters before him, but like I said he was an experiment as to how the show/hunting title lines would do. He passed all my criteria and does very well WHEN IT ENTERTAINS HIM to do so. I was hoping he was slow to mature, but there comes a time when you have to move on to the next dog. My point is the puppy has to sell you on what it can do. Don't settle for close.*

*Jim*


----------



## rick smith

not trying to argue, and everything Jim says is a keeper and well worth digesting and learning. i'm assuming he does this for a living and basically needs to get it right the first time around

...my suggestion was based only on your current training experience, funds and the time it takes to build up your own effective selection system that will work for you

- that's why i still suggest you get a dog that has shown it can and WANTS to do the work and get your first certified SAR dog under your belt and start working it, even if it costs a bit more than a blank page pup. i am sure they are out there to find if you direct your search that way. an environmentally sound motivated dog will make your training go smoother but you will still have plenty of challenges to overcome that will help build your confidence and abilities over the long haul 

of course the choice is yours


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Jim Delbridge said:


> Sarah,
> While the Volhards get most of the credit, they didn't invent the temperment tests. I believe the 49 day window was taken from the study documented in "Genetics and the Social Behavior of the Dog" by John Paul Scott and John L Fuller. Even the author states he thinks the experiment had serious flaws as it was artificial. They only studied a few puppies in home environments. The bulk of their puppies were in a sterile lab environment with limited human interaction.
> 
> You pick your one day window and I'll pick my ten day window, no worries.
> 
> Jim


Yes, and later refined with Pffafenberger and the guide dog testing which was done weekly through the 12th week.

T


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Jim Delbridge said:


> I run into lots of breeders that tell me they know their puppies better than anyone. If they let me test, I ask them to fill out the forms on the puppies prior to testing with their experience. They get to watch the testing downwind behind a window. Surprises always appear for them. It's the biggest reason you take the breeder out of the equation.
> 
> respectfully,
> 
> Jim


Same here. As for Volhard, that's not something I ever thought was that useful.

T


----------



## rick smith

taking the breeder out of the question may work for those who have a lot of experience testing pups for the job they specialize in. 

my questions would be :
1. how long does it take to build up that level of experience ?
2. can a person with a fairly decent level of "dog sense" replicate a test that works for the experienced group of selectors and have it work for them in the same way ?

,,,,btw, not trying to morph the thread in a "test or not to test" direction. 
just that it seems that people who DO test, do it because they have developed their own system with successful outcomes, while other people, (using Alice as an example), do not test but rely more on knowing what the lines they are looking at will bring to the table, and rely more on their training skills.

....BUT.....both types, imo, are still relying heavily on the breeder; just in different ways, since they are probably not looking for dogs in shelters, and we all know there are good dogs to be found there too 

but my advice to the OP is the same //// spend your time on training rather than developing and honing your puppy selection expertise


----------



## Jim Delbridge

I tested puppies in shelters for 3 months as an experiment. Rarely saw anything younger than 8 weeks and all already had emotional baggage on them. I assume from abandonment and crappy breeders/owners. I like to start at the 5-6 weeks window because the puppy is mostly a blank slate. Any behavior problems will there after be on me. I can control the fear period environments and try to minimize their effect on the dog's development. And training is pretty much simply setting up progressively more complex scent problems. Imprinting is basically rewarding for what the dog already likes doing. Make no mistake, Thorpe likes the scent game. Now, he gets to pick up after Murphy gets to train. If I want to speed Murphy up, I'll set up a problem and let them work it together while I toss the one ball up in the air. They know who ever makes the find gets the ball and the other has to endure the squeaks as the winner races around the loser in victory laps. If in the future, Thorpe comes out of this current mindgame he's playing, I'll have a bunch of double blinds set up for him and me to let him convice me he's back in the game. BUT, I can not depend on that happening.


How long does it take to get the level required to be a smart shopper?.....I think its more an attitude.
Way too many handlers/owners accept the breeder will know exactly what puppy is best for that handler. The biggest weakness to that is every handler works a little differently. Some work in ways I just can't fathom, but it works for them and their dog. My attitude is as long as they produce consistent results, it is not for me to criticize how they do it. 


I don't understand your dependence on the breeder other than expectation of providing a healthy breeding and a decent environment for bitch and puppies. For me, that environment is better if its outdoors. My first two dogs were tested in snow and the litter stayed in a metal shed with hay on the wooden floor and light bulb for heat. Murphy was whelped and grew up totally outdoors in east Texas heat with cattle 20 feet away and working dogs roaming the land. 

Can a person with decent dog sense replicate my testing? Absolutely! In fact I know of eight different handlers that I worked with over the phone and they did the testing on their own. I remember one that called me during the testing of dobies. She asks nervously, "this one is awesome, but it stopped going towards scent to poop."
"did it resume pursuing scent after said poop was done?"
"well yeah"
"With puppies, when you gotta poop, you gotta poop. It stayed committed to scent. Keep it in the running."
five years later, this doberman continues to be awesome as I get to work with them from time to time when I travel to that state. But, you're right, she had 25 years working in terrier rescue and was testing dobermans..... This isn't rocket science, it's paying attention to the what the puppy tells you its response is to a stimulus. There are no right or wrong answers, but there are specific answers that win the audition.
Those are the ones I know of. My methods are available to anyone that looks for them.

There are breeders that like to convince perspective handlers that their entire litter will be superstar search dogs simply because they breed two certed search dogs. Statistically that's a load of crap. It's caveat emptor for the handler. I'm just giving a structured method for my buying to be wary.


I've personally seen way too many pre-trained SAR and NARC dogs that were not what they were suggested to be. The professional dog training community is very diverse and one is just as likely to get taken as to find a decent dog. At least with starting your own puppy, you can't blame anyone else and you know exactly what's gone into the dog in its training.
Jim


----------



## rick smith

good valid points and i agree with them all Jim

only one aspect that wasn't touched on, especially in regards to pound puppies vs being responsible for making all the mistakes when you start with a puppy

...and one of the biggest reasons i like dogs so much :
- their plasticity and amazing ability to adapt and respond to owners who know what they are doing. a lot of times baggage is something that CAN be cast off and is not life changing and permanent. lots of examples of dogs nearly ruined by horrible upbringings that adapt VERY well. of course not everyone wants to work with those kind of dogs, but i have seen dogs cast off for exactly the reasons that i think are major plusses regarding their trainability.

proper genetics are essential, especially so when you are relying so much on sense-related work that's required for detection, but good training is equally if not more important, and i give dogs more credit than just about any other animal on the planet when it comes to their potential to respond to training


----------



## Sarah Platts

Jim Delbridge said:


> The biggest weakness to that is every handler works a little differently. Some work in ways I just can't fathom, but it works for them and their dog. My attitude is as long as they produce consistent results, it is not for me to criticize how they do it.


I'll agree with you here. While everyone want's the best prospect, ultimately the handler should be picking the dog.


----------



## Kimberly Grimm

The breeder does not perform the Volhard test herself. She has members of her obedience club come and perform the test. She did state she does so much handling and socialization with the puppies that she does believe it affects the results as opposed to less handled pups where you are getting a more accurate picture of their natural disposition. 

The breeder does do the bird testing herself. 

I know a lot of groups don't start out with puppies. If I had an established relationship with someone who trained SAR dogs, I might consider it, but since I have no such relationship it's not something I would consider at this time. 

From what I've read fear issues are usually a result of early socialization and genetics. I'm sure I could have done more, better, etc. with Ivan, but he hasn't gotten past it yet. We will still work on it and I still have goals for him. But when it comes to my next SAR dog, I don't want to spend time fixing issues that could be spent on SAR training. At least that's the plan.


----------



## Jim Delbridge

I personally test puppies for myself to take advantage of the exponential learning curve of the puppy up to 16 weeks. Getting a puppy at six weeks allows me to control fear periods as well. I have no issues with the ettiquette that the mother teaches the puppies in the 7 & 8 week period and bonding is tighter.

Armed with the knowledge that the breeder does the socialization handling, you can adjust your testing. You can shift the three dominance tests together as i do. The hang test needs to be where the puppy's paws can just feel the tips of the grass on its pads as most breeders hug and clutch with the chest hold. If the puppies simply hang limp through out the test, it's not informative. I tend to like a puppy that struggles, relaxes, then reaches a point of "I've had enough." These are time related (as in seconds). I make an effort to relax the puppy through those three tests with verbal cooing and minor stroking, but the tests are meant to put them in awkward situations where they have to demonstrate trust in the strange human. Stacking the three dominance tests, I then set the puppy down next to me and lightly stroke it without restrain. I want the puppy that I can convince to stick around. Many take this as an opportunity to bolt. Using the tests stacked this way, I'm checking forgiveness on the puppy's part. I have to have a puppy that's willing to stick around because there will be days where I have my head up my ass and the dog has to have the attitude of "this will pass and he'll get a clue again." During your dog's training, there will definitely be days where you think you know where your "victim" is and the dog's nose says otherwise. With Human Remains, this is even more prevalent. Once you learn to trust the dog as the expert, your attitude changes from "it can't be there" to "the dog doesn't lie and it's the scent expert." Working the problems my dog is sometimes stuck with many times this later becomes "how can the dog and i work this one out." I had someone set up what they thought was a fair problem and it became a teaching tool for the problem setter as Murphy and I solved it the hard way. The scent source had been placed such as to mute the scent way down and the environment made it a booger to solve. Knowing Murphy and having developed that trust, he and I managed to work it out. After that he had to endur scent placed in thick sand burrs and only solved by climbing shaky expanded metal stairs and walkway 15 feet up. Again the problem was blind to me, but he endurred the problem full of negative reinforcements because his personality is such that he knows I'll take care of him and make it worth his while. 
Just having a nose is not enough. It's essential to have that nose, but the brain driving the nose has to be compatible with the handler(equipment operator) Murphy also had to endur 20 minutes of me carefully extracting sand burrs from his muzzle and coat even though I have him trimmed short right now. Airedales are known as velcro dogs for a reason.

Goldens and Labs are infamous for appearing agreeable and non-plussed, but when I've tested them, the puppies will take the chance to bolt as often as any other working breed.

Jim


----------

