# Medical System Sucks!



## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

Seriously, it makes me miss my home. 

Last year when I had an "open nerv" situation I walked into the Hospital, in Heidelberg, they pulled the wisdom tooth and I was sent back home. 

Over here I called over ten dentists in town and the surrounding area. NONE will take me in right away. My Wisdom Tooth broke, the nerve lays open and I am in excruciating pain and they don't see that as an emmergency and have no appointments under one or two months. REALLY?

Today it was so bad that hubby had to take me to the hospital. I got three painkillers. Vicodin, Tramadol and Motril and on top of that antibiotics so it doesn't get infected. They said that I probably have to drive to Syracuse to get an appointment within the next two weeks because it should be taken care of ASAP, yet it's not an emmergency. 

WTH. Pulling a tooth takes 10 minutes tops and yet, because I am not an established patient with any Dentist, none of them wants to give me an appointment and rather see me getting addicted to Vicodin than treating me? 
It's not like I don't have health insurance, I have Tricare Dental Coverage but I can't go on post either because they don't treat family members on post...

I really love this country, I love my home, I love my team, I love the town but situations like that make me want to go back home just to be treated like a human beeing. 

If you are in pain, a doctor HAS to treat you. He can't send you away and a broken tooth with an open laying nerv is treated as an emergency and they WILL squeeze you in. You may have to wait four or five hours but at least they don't send you back home... 

The pain is so bad that not even those three painkillers make it go away. It's better, I am not sitting there sweating and crying (and I'm a tough cookie when it comes up to pain, I can take quite a bit) because it's that bad and even the Vicodin didn't knock me out like it's supposed to do and the pain is already coming back... WTH is wrong with those Dentists... really? 
I know I'm spoiled. We've got of the best systems in the world... but this? An open laying nerv and nobody wants to treat you? That goes beyond comprehendion. 
RANT OVER!


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

my FIL had a similar problem. He went to a drug store and they sold him some temporary filling that he was able to pack into his tooth to get through. Is there a Wlagreens or similar drug store near you?

I hope you get some relief. The pain must be awful!


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

Yeah, there is Walgreens and Rite Aid. I saw the temporary fillings but I am not sure if I want to mess with the nerv and if it'll help or make it worse. 

A friend of mine offered her appointment with her Dentist in August... don't know if I can wait that long. 
Hopefully I can get an appointment in Syracuse. It's an hour drive just to get to a dentist. That's crazy.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Yowch, that really sucks. Not so sure about it only taking 10 minutes, but yeah. I had a really bad flare up about a year and a half ago of a herniated disc and I couldn't find a single primary care physician other than the university student health center to take me before 3-4 weeks, unless I went to urgent care. And my town is full of PCPs. I went to the student health center as I was in excruciating pain. Like I wrote on your Facebook, most vets would likely do an extraction the same day or next day since most do medical, surgical, and dental emergencies. I had to run anesthesia on an emergency fracture repair on a little dog on the fourth of July last year. The dog broke its leg the night before, was kept in the ICU on morphine for pain, and while we totally could have sent the dog home on pain meds and strict crate rest to put it off another day or two, the orthopaedic surgeon wanted it done then. We even talked about how people we knew that had broke a leg would never have it repaired by a physician on a national holiday. :lol:


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

I absolutely believe that it's far easier to get a Vet appointment than an appointment for yourself. BTDT. 

When the Great Dane was mauled by my bitch, he was seen right away and rushed through an emergencie surgery. When my pup overate and it looked like a bloat, they took him right in and even with routine stuff I usually get an appointment for the very next day. They are not cheap but I learned to love that Vet and the best part is, he's right at the end of my road so he's in five minutes walking distance and two six month Interceptor packages are cheaper than a 12 month pack online. 

It's kind of sad that it is easier to get a Vet appointment than one for yourself. I honestly feel that there is something horribly wrong with the medical system, the insurances and overal treatment of people, in this country and I am not saying that to bash the US.


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## Diana Abel (Aug 31, 2009)

Have you looked for any emergency dental clinics? I worked at a Dental office for many years and in Va, we cannot legally turn a patient away. Not sure how it works in NY, but if I were you, I would go into an office either as soon as they open, or right after lunch and tell them how badly you are hurting and if they could please work you into the schedule, tell them you are willing to wait as long as you have to and I doubt they can legally turn you away. In Va they can't. It is much easier for them to turn you away on the phone as oppsed to seeing you in person. Exposed nerves are VERY painful and it would definately be a bad idea to use the temporary filling material IMO. It would probably just build up pressure and make things worse. If you go to one office and they turn you away, try another until someone will work you in. There HAS to be an office in your area that will! Good luck.


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

Good point. I will look up the patient law. If they can't turn me away, legally, I will print it out and take it with me and hold it right under their nose. I have no issue with waiting as long as I have to as long as it is taken care of the same day. 

My only problem is that I have lost my tricare dental card so I have to go to tricare first and get a copy. ](*,)

And you are right, there has got to be a dentist in the Area that will work me in.


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## Laney Rein (Feb 9, 2011)

Sandra don't know about there but here they have a dental college w/real dentists that do the work but they train assts and accept anyone plus they have a clinic that all they do is extractions. I know sounds silly but found them in a book of references my insurance company handed out. You might also call your insurance company and they may be able to get you in some place. Wisdom teeth can be a bear to extract. Also might try that stuff that numbs baby gums when teething. It has a topical anesthetic in it. Good luck!


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

I'm pretty sure they still offer flights back to where you came from.

people coming over the fence by the millions wanting in to this country. If you want out its even easier.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I personally feel your pain....

But I would not make a blanket statement that our countries *medical system *sucks. I would however say that the dentists in your area suck. There are emergency dentists and clinics.


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

Joby, I agree it was unfair to say that the medical system overall sucks. 

Anyhow, I found a Dentist that was recommended by another spouse and he's seeing me tomorrow morning. I guess the good old recommendation system works


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## catherine hardigan (Oct 12, 2009)

I hear your pain, Sandra. I used to live in Vienna, Austria and their medical system is so much better than what we have here in the States. If you are sick or hurt you actually get to see a doctor promptly and it doesn't cost an arm-and-a-leg. 

I have travelled throughout the world, and from what I've experienced and seen "blanket statements" like yours are very accurate.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

catherine hardigan said:


> I hear your pain, Sandra. I used to live in Vienna, Austria and their medical system is so much better than what we have here in the States. If you are sick or hurt you actually get to see a doctor promptly and it doesn't cost an arm-and-a-leg.
> 
> I have travelled throughout the world, and from what I've experienced and seen "blanket statements" like yours are very accurate.


I have a blanket statement for you Catherine... go back to Austria I'm sure it's a lovely country ... I can get the finest medical care 24/7 365 and have all my life and I am 50 years old.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

catherine hardigan said:


> I hear your pain, Sandra. I used to live in Vienna, Austria and their medical system is so much better than what we have here in the States. If you are sick or hurt you actually get to see a doctor promptly and it doesn't cost an arm-and-a-leg.
> 
> I have travelled throughout the world, and from what I've experienced and seen "blanket statements" like yours are very accurate.


Indeed. There's a reason I was pre-med once upon a time...


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

My wife is a cancer survivor, breast and ovarian (7 years) I'm a cancer survivor. I guess I just don't have too many complaints. 

DFrost


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## catherine hardigan (Oct 12, 2009)

Brian Anderson said:


> I have a blanket statement for you Catherine... go back to Austria I'm sure it's a lovely country ... I can get the finest medical care 24/7 365 and have all my life and I am 50 years old.


Nobody improves by being told how great they are all the time, and this includes countries.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Does everyone from you country complain this much…. you sound like the people of Greece. 
The reality of it is although there is room for improvement we got the best care in the world
Business class one way. Im pretty sure we can raise the money from the kind folks on this board… As long as you stay there. Probably cheaper than keeping you 
http://www.continental.com/web/en-US/apps/booking/flight/searchResult1.aspx


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Its actually a really good reference, so is the one without Doctors 
http://www.amazon.com/Where-There-Dentist-Murray-Dickson/dp/0942364058 
I had to put them on my home shelf because they might be better than our health care in the future


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

catherine hardigan said:


> Nobody improves by being told how great they are all the time, and this includes countries.


I lost 7 members of my family in Europe in WWII one of which was in Vienna Austria. Please don't come to my country and complain. If it doesn't suit you. We will make it without you. Nobody has to tell me anything about the greatness of my country. I won't sit by while someone from another country who is here willingly whines and complains because they are inconvenienced. This country was built by hard working, self sacrificing, self sufficient people. Thousands and thousands have died in that effort. Someone thinks they are going to complain about my country over a toothache or hangnail without hearing it from me is mistaken. Call it what you want [-X


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

Brian Anderson said:


> I lost 7 members of my family in Europe in WWII one of which was in Vienna Austria. Please don't come to my country and complain. If it doesn't suit you. We will make it without you. Nobody has to tell me anything about the greatness of my country. I won't sit by while someone from another country who is here willingly whines and complains because they are inconvenienced. This country was built by hard working, self sacrificing, self sufficient people. Thousands and thousands have died in that effort. Someone thinks they are going to complain about my country over a toothache or hangnail without hearing it from me is mistaken. Call it what you want [-X


Oh dear lord... somebody had to bring up WWII. That is like beating a dead horse. GET OVER IT ALREADY! WWII has nothing to do with you or me or Cathrine and it's extremely offensive what you are suggesting. So cut the crap!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Sandra King said:


> ... I agree it was unfair to say that the medical system overall sucks.


Dental pain can cause serious crabbiness.

I had an abscess once that I will never ever forget, on a holiday weekend. (No previous pain to warn me that something bad was in the works.) 

That was the holiday weekend when I learned about the dental equivalent of Doc in the Box (walk-in medical or dental care). 

I did not care what they did. I did not care what it cost. I cared only that the pain be relieved, and not by a pill .... permanently relieved. They said they could inject me with a topical for a couple hours of relief and also give me pain meds if I wanted to wait and see my own dentist and discuss a root canal, but I basically handed them the pliers.


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Dental pain can cause serious crabbiness.
> 
> I had an abscess once that I will never ever forget, on a holiday weekend. (No previous pain to warn me that something bad was in the works.)
> 
> ...


Oh yeah, I agree. Thank god they see me tomorrow and hopefully they'll take that tooth out right away. ](*,)


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## catherine hardigan (Oct 12, 2009)

Brian Anderson said:


> I lost 7 members of my family in Europe in WWII one of which was in Vienna Austria. Please don't come to my country and complain. If it doesn't suit you. We will make it without you. Nobody has to tell me anything about the greatness of my country. I won't sit by while someone from another country who is here willingly whines and complains because they are inconvenienced. This country was built by hard working, self sacrificing, self sufficient people. Thousands and thousands have died in that effort. Someone thinks they are going to complain about my country over a toothache or hangnail without hearing it from me is mistaken. Call it what you want [-X


Why do you assume that I am Austrian? Does the surname Hardigan sound Germanic to you? I am American born and bred, I just happened to live in Vienna for a couple years while working.

There are plenty of great things about the US, but there are things other countries do better. To pretend otherwise only does us a disservice.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Sandra King said:


> Oh dear lord... somebody had to bring up WWII. That is like beating a dead horse. GET OVER IT ALREADY! WWII has nothing to do with you or me or Cathrine and it's extremely offensive what you are suggesting. So cut the crap!


No I wont get over it. Those dead I mentioned were my family members. I couldn't care less about you being offended. I am not suggesting a damn thing I am saying it flat out. Save your "cut the crap" routine for your kids or hubby it doesn't work for me.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

catherine hardigan said:


> Why do you assume that I am Austrian? Does the surname Hardigan sound Germanic to you? I am American born and bred, I just happened to live in Vienna for a couple years while working.
> 
> There are plenty of great things about the US, but there are things other countries do better. To pretend otherwise only does us a disservice.


Catherine you are right. I apologize. It had nothing to do with your name. I was wrong and hope that you accept my apology.


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

Brian Anderson said:


> No I wont get over it. Those dead I mentioned were my family members. I couldn't care less about you being offended. I am not suggesting a damn thing I am saying it flat out. Save your "cut the crap" routine for your kids or hubby it doesn't work for me.


We all have family members that we lost in the war but it doesn't make any sense to hold a grudge because it's not doing any good. Plus I and I am pretty sure, most of the people on this forum, weren't even there. So it's not our fault and we should not be held accounatable for it. It's over 60 years ago. I'm 32 years old and what you suggested was that Greencardholders can't have an opinion because you lost seven familymembers in WWII. 

At least that is how it came across and I am sick and tired of people to be told to go back home just because they have a different opinion or because I happen to be German or somebody else could be Austrian and it's so damn easy to bring up WWII to literally squish any argument that is out there. 

It's getting old. 

Furthermore, I've never said that you have bad doctors. You have some of the finest doctors in the world. Not all of them but you sure have some great Doctors out there. It's the overal system that could need some work and I also said that we do not have a perfect system back in Germany but it's overall easier to get treatment right away.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Sandra King said:


> We all have family members that we lost in the war but it doesn't make any sense to hold a grudge because it's not doing any good. Plus I and I am pretty sure, most of the people on this forum, weren't even there. So it's not our fault and we should not be held accounatable for it. It's over 60 years ago. I'm 32 years old and what you suggested was that Greencardholders can't have an opinion because you lost seven familymembers in WWII.
> 
> At least that is how it came across and I am sick and tired of people to be told to go back home just because they have a different opinion or because I happen to be German or somebody else could be Austrian and it's so damn easy to bring up WWII to literally squish any argument that is out there.
> 
> ...


Sandra I have nothing personal against you. If you notice I don't get into shit slinging contests on this forum or anywhere for that matter. I try to be helpful and encourage others. I made no personal insults or belittling commentary. 

In the interest of civility and decency we will agree to disagree. I hold no harsh feelings for you and hopefully you do not for me. I feel like you took it differently than what I intended. I wish you well and again I have no hard feelings. Shall we move on to more dog talk now? :smile:


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

Brian Anderson said:


> Sandra I have nothing personal against you. If you notice I don't get into shit slinging contests on this forum or anywhere for that matter. I try to be helpful and encourage others. I made no personal insults or belittling commentary.
> 
> In the interest of civility and decency we will agree to disagree. I hold no harsh feelings for you and hopefully you do not for me. I feel like you took it differently than what I intended. I wish you well and again I have no hard feelings. Shall we move on to more dog talk now? :smile:


I have nothing against you nor will I hold a grudge. But just to give you an idea why I took it the way I took it. I thought you were pretty clear in your opinion. I am the one with the "toothache" (exposed nerv)... that opened the topic, complained and from another country. 



> I lost 7 members of my family in Europe in WWII one of which was in Vienna Austria. *Please don't come to my country and complain. If it doesn't suit you. We will make it without you.* Nobody has to tell me anything about the greatness of my country.* I won't sit by while someone from another country who is here willingly whines and complains because they are inconvenienced. * This country was built by hard working, self sacrificing, self sufficient people. Thousands and thousands have died in that effort.* Someone thinks they are going to complain about my country over a toothache or hangnail without hearing it from me is mistaken. *Call it what you want


However, I can agree to disagree and move on.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Dental pain can cause serious crabbiness.
> 
> I had an abscess once that I will never ever forget, on a holiday weekend. (No previous pain to warn me that something bad was in the works.)
> 
> ...


That's for damn sure. Not much that is quite as excrutiating as a bad tooth. Sandra I'm really glad you were finally able to find a dentist who would help you. I can't imagine how frustrating this was. I hope you feel better soon.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Our medical system is under a lot of stress due to the obesity crisis in this country! Dentist are feeling that crunch as well with children coming in with rotting teeth due to "dew mouth"(mountain dew). These young children with dental problems will probably GROW right into the obesity statistic .

I have found it Ironic how the people who complain about the problems of medical health care are sometimes the cause of the problem. In turn, the people who should be complaining the most are the people who rarely see the doctor but have to pay astronomical cost to meet their deductible cause others have to see the doc once a month; due to the fact they don't take care of themselves. The sucker going once a year has to chip in and pay for those who let themselves go.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Sandra your complaint is legitimate, you are here legally, you pay your taxes, you even have health insurance, and above all else, you have every right to vent your frustration, a frustration, by the way, echoed by many. I feel your pain, darlin!!!!!!!!


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

susan tuck said:


> Sandra your complaint is legitimate, you are here legally, you pay your taxes, you even have health insurance, and above all else, you have every right to vent your frustration, a frustration, by the way, echoed by many. I feel your pain, darlin!!!!!!!!


Good point Susan! Everybody has the right to complain and voice their opinion without "somebody trying to silence them", even if it's misplaced anger/frustration!


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Our medical system is under a lot of stress due to the obesity crisis in this country! Dentist are feeling that crunch as well with children coming in with rotting teeth due to "dew mouth"(mountain dew). These young children with dental problems will probably GROW right into the obesity statistic .
> 
> I have found it Ironic how the people who complain about the problems of medical health care are sometimes the cause of the problem. In turn, the people who should be complaining the most are the people who rarely see the doctor but have to pay astronomical cost to meet their deductible cause others have to see the doc once a month; due to the fact they don't take care of themselves. The sucker going once a year has to chip in and pay for those who let themselves go.


Your right Tim. Last time I saw a doc I had brain surgery and had a steel plate put in my head. That's what you go see doctors for, not because you got the sniffels. That was 42+ years ago. Some how people are delusional that think constantly seeing a doctor means they are healthy when quite the opposite is true.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Tim, I am not sure how having an abscessed tooth relate to obesity and how it is the cause of all problems. It makes a scapegoat for all that is wrong with the medical system.

*Is obesity a serious health crisis- YES, ABSOLUTELY
Is it the cause of the escalating medical costs-NO*

A lot of what we have here is doctors sendng people to specialist upon specialist to justify use, pay the bills and CYA. Areas that HAVE more specialists have higher medical costs as they are used more. There is more correlation between THIS than there is between obesity and medical costs.

My mother had a stroke-hole in heart, a-fib. Nothing to do with obesity. Ocassionaly she has a small seizure (but we know it is not epileptic because she is alert and oriented during and after. We put together it was correlated to having a bladder infection (smart doctor) we don't go to the doctor anymore-you go to the hospital with something like this and it winds up being cat scans, MRIs, etc. $$$ 

You don't want to know how much time and money was spent on my father the last months of his lung cancer grabbing at straws. I thank the doctor who set him down and said, Paul - I can buy you a few more months but you are going to be miserable - its time to throw in teh towel. Very few doctors do taht anymore. THAT is where our dollars are going to-- trying to avoid death when it is inevitable. 

Many of the countries with "better" health care put those limits on excessive care. We should do that. 

I have an issue with all this fertility stuff and people having "litters" of babies who come early and cost tons of money.

I can tell you plenty of thin people that have horrible horrible cardiovascular systems and obese people who are great.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Here you go Nancy. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TncVjUwrB2k&feature=youtube_gdata_player

It is relevant to the complaints of health care and time waiting "for services". Oral care is a direct link to our food habits and taking care of ones self in general, among other factors!


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Here you go Nancy. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TncVjUwrB2k&feature=youtube_gdata_player
> 
> It is relevant to the complaints of health care for one and time waiting "for services". Oral care is a direct link to our food habits and taking care of ones self in general, among other factors!


Oral care isn't just food Tim. I have chewed tobacco for years and finally ended up having all my teeth pulled. Got no dental problems to speak of now. If I break a tooth, I just drop them off at the lab on the way by and pick them up the next day. Actually like em better than the originals. Didn't even need braces to get a nice set.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Don, don't ever change! You are the last of a forgotten breed!
You must be Russian. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNfnVtMeI84&feature=youtube_gdata_player


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

HEY you know what else relates to poor overall health, obesity and bad teeth???? Bad genes!!! If we could just get a handle on the breeders in this country we could REALLY solve some problems!!! Blame it on the people... YES!!! Redirect from the politicians who protect big business insurance corporations who want to make huge profits and look for any excuse not to pay out...YES!!! 

Just like tort reform, right??? I bet most of you think that was a good thing. Awful bad lawyers making it so that poor innocent corporations like McDonald's don't have to pay exorbitant punitive damages when stupid old ladies spill coffee on themselves, right??????? 
Sure bet. :roll::roll::roll::roll:


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

susan tuck said:


> HEY you know what else relates to poor overall health, obesity and bad teeth???? Bad genes!!! If we could just get a handle on the breeders in this country we could REALLY solve some problems!!! Blame it on the people... YES!!! Redirect from the politicians who protect big business insurance corporations who want to make huge profits and look for any excuse not to pay out...YES!!!
> 
> Just like tort reform, right??? I bet most of you think that was a good thing. Awful bad lawyers making it so that poor innocent corporations like McDonald's don't have to pay exorbitant punitive damages when stupid old ladies spill coffee on themselves, right???????
> Sure bet. :roll::roll::roll::roll:


I burned myself the other day with coffee....maybe I should sue Mr. Coffee, and the breeder who bred the fatass cat I tripped over..


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

@ Susan, notice I did write "among other factors" at the end of my sentence. Yes, genes do play a role!

This is the problem of blaming and taking no responsibility for ones self. Like Joby's signature says, the spoon made him do it LOL, let's ban spoons. 
Jeff, banned on a public forum, why? Cause he was rude and hurt feelings, awh! Not right for peeps to get feelings hurt. They can't ignore him cause in his sarcasim is a bit of truth that hits home on that person! Nope, ban him!

It's not obesity causing problems it's the fast food places, ban them! 
Guns, ban them cause they kill!

Yes, coffee is HOT and can burn old ladies as well. Coffee is heartless as much as hot oil and wild fire. Yes, paint thinner should not be ingested. Of coarse the writing on items wrapped in plastic bags should say, Do not put over your head! 

When a couple Europeans came here they could not believe all the warning labels on shit. It's an American phenomenon in place to somehow protect the dumbest members of society who probably can't read it anyhow!
It's just this bad http://mobile.forbes.com/device/art...preneurs-sales-marketing-warning-labels.html?

Click on the link of the dumbest!


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Good point Susan! Everybody has the right to complain and voice their opinion without "somebody trying to silence them", even if it's misplaced anger/frustration!


Thats very true Tim, we all have our 1st amendment rights that were put in place many many years ago.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Harry Keely said:


> Thats very true Tim, we all have our 1st amendment rights that were put in place many many years ago.


Thank you Harry, my fellow "EQUAL" American man!

Can I sue you for having bigger biceps than me LOL?


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Timothy Stacy said:


> @ Susan, notice I did write "among other factors" at the end of my sentence. Yes, genes do play a role!
> 
> This is the problem of blaming and taking no responsibility for ones self. Like Joby's signature says, the spoon made him do it LOL, let's ban spoons.
> Jeff, banned on a public forum, why? Cause he was rude and hurt feelings, awh! Not right for peeps to get feelings hurt. They can't ignore him cause in his sarcasim is a bit of truth that hits home on that person! Nope, ban him!
> ...


See what happens when you assume? You ASSUME jeff was banned because he was rude and hurt feelings, but who told you that, Tim? I think Jeff was probably banned because he was a colossal pain in the ass jackass who couldn't bother following the rules. He flat out wasn't worth being babysat. 

You ASSUME the old lady should have KNOWN the coffee was hot and therefore would be burned by it? Are you aware of how extensive the burns were? Did you know they were 3rd degree burns that required skin grafts, extensive hospitalizations and surgeries? Did you know that McDonald's at the time had more than 700 similar claims, and that even in the face of those claims, and even though they knew it was normal practice at other restaurants to keep coffee at 135F (which is hot) they chose to keep their coffee at 185F which is SCALDING)? Did you know all the old lady wanted was help with her medical bills but McDonald's REFUSED which is WHY there was a lawsuit?

I was in the insurance industry for more than 20 years that was my career. JUST like big business wants people to believe tort reform is all about being fair and keeping costs down, insurance companies want to slant the issues effecting their bottom line so that the average person believes the crappy state of health care in this country is their own fault. It's a bunch of bullshit. It's absolutely a fact that people should take better care of themselves but that is NOT the reason our health care system is in trouble, not by a long shot.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Yes, I did know that! One case can **** up everything.

Did you know that lady had been to Mcdonalds and had coffee before and she knew how hot it was? Yet she kept coming back for the scolding hot java.

Did you know people have been warned over 700 times about the health risks of being over weight and they just don't take the warning seriously? So who would be ultimately responsible for their medical bills?
Mcdonalds was warned and you believe it was justified for them to pay. People are warned about the health risks with being overweight, shouldn't they be responsible for their health bills if they get a disease that is weight related AND THEY ARE OVER WEIGHT?


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Yes, I did know that! One case can **** up everything.
> 
> Did you know that lady had been to Mcdonalds and had coffee before and she knew how hot it was? Yet she kept coming back for the scolding hot java.
> 
> ...


No, that one case didn't **** up anything, it's the one that big business had the advertisers lie about so they could shove tort reform down people's throats. They knew all they needed was some cool catch phrases because unfortunately most Americans only listen to the cool catch phrases and don't dig beyond what they hear in commercials.

Again Timothy, HOT coffee is not SCALDING. Do you seriously expect anyone to believe that normal people would expect that spilling coffee could result in 3rd degree burns, skin grafts and multiple surgeries? Give me a break!!! If most people thought spilling coffee could result in those kinds of serious life threatening burns you can bet they wouldn't be drinking coffee in the car. 

Sure Tim, people are warned about being overweight, so according to you, they should therefore be responsible for their own hospital bills, huh? OK, so to use your logic it follows that since people know that power tools are dangerous, they should be responsible for the costs of injuries they cause to themselves, as well as anyone who does anything that could remotely be blamed on themselves should have to pay for those health costs too, right?

The health insurance companies love that kind of blame game, because they could pretty much get out of paying just about anything and all the premiums we pay would go into their bottom line, but rest assured, if people had to pay for everything associated with known risks, our health insurance crisis would be a hell of a lot worse than it is now.

Here's the thing, we have a health insurance crisis, but it's a multi pronged crisis, and to try and blame over weight people for it is not far sighted and is not correct. It's one part of the issue, yes it is, but it is NOT the major reason for our health care crisis today.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I just had bunion surgery. The jury is out on whether bunions are 100% genetic or are also caused by wearing high heeled shoes. Either way, since it's my own fault one way or the other, I guess according to you, I should have to pay for the surgery, not my insurance company?

MAN I'm sure glad you aren't my claims adjuster!!!!:lol::lol:


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## catherine hardigan (Oct 12, 2009)

susan tuck said:


> Just like tort reform, right??? I bet most of you think that was a good thing. Awful bad lawyers making it so that poor innocent corporations like McDonald's don't have to pay exorbitant punitive damages when stupid old ladies spill coffee on themselves, right???????
> Sure bet. :roll::roll::roll::roll:


Except that the states that have undergone tort reform have not seen a drop in medical costs.

Speaking of hot coffee... are you familiar with the documentary about that old woman in the early nineties? She suffered from 3rd degree burns over 15% of her body. It was so bad that when she went to the ER they had to bring in a burn specialist. In her lawsuit the only damages she sought was for McDonalds to cover her medical bills. It was the jury that awarded her much more.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Nope, power tools are a ACCIDENT that happens in split seconds. Being over weight is compounded over time .
Spilling coffee is a accident as well. Eating and drinking can be dangerous while driving. The fact that the coffee was hot and that somebody doesn't know the affects of SCALDING ANYTHING is a different matter. However she knew the coffee was very hot cause she gOt it there before!'That old lady was driving when she spilt the coffee, right? Her car manufacturer did not have a label warning her that drinking hot liquids are dangerous while driving.

Now if I have a hole in my back yard and try welding something, let's say a water pipe. The air is stagnant and The propane tank hose has a small leak that fills my OPEN hole in the ground with propane. Or even I turn it on but don't lite it right away. When I do I get burns all over me. Can I sue the propane company for propane being lighter than air and me not knowing propane could get trapped in a open hole or is that something I should now. 
When accidents like these happen, it's your fault!
Let say the woman made her own tea and brought it to a boil and had to leave as soon as her tea came to a boil. Puts it in a cup and the same incident happens. Who gets sued here? She still did not know that boiling hot tea could lead to so much medical trauma either. So who gets sued here?


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

catherine hardigan said:


> Except that the states that have undergone tort reform have not seen a drop in medical costs.
> 
> Speaking of hot coffee... are you familiar with the documentary about that old woman in the early nineties? She suffered from 3rd degree burns over 15% of her body. It was so bad that when she went to the ER they had to bring in a burn specialist. In her lawsuit the only damages she sought was for McDonalds to cover her medical bills. It was the jury that awarded her much more.


Very good point about there not being a drop in medical costs. My post that you quoted was meant to be sarcastic. ! Yes I am familiar with the documentary it's called "Hot Coffee". It's an argument against Tort Reform.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

susan tuck said:


> I just had bunion surgery. The jury is out on whether bunions are 100% genetic or are also caused by wearing high heeled shoes. Either way, since it's my own fault one way or the other, I guess according to you, I should have to pay for the surgery, not my insurance company?
> 
> MAN I'm sure glad you aren't my claims adjuster!!!!:lol::lol:


Now silliness comes into play [-X
Bunions aren't exactly costing Americans 150 billion a year 

I usually don't support big corporations but I also don't support frivolous lawsuits! Now we see why our medical AND judicial sysytem is ****ed. Thanks for pointing this out cause I sometimes forget LOL.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Timothy Stacy said:


> ... it to a boil and had to leave as soon as her tea came to a boil. Puts it in a cup and the same incident happens. Who gets sued here? She did know that boiling hot tea could lead to so much medical trauma either. So who gets sued here?


NO Timothy, that's the point!!!!! Water temps for coffee/tea made at home and at restaurants is around 140F, and at that temp if it spills on you, you don't get a 3rd degree burn that requires skin grafts, hospitalizations and multiple surgeries!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! McDonalds KNEW the coffee could do this, and did nothing about it, THAT'S the reason for the punitive damages!!! The average person assumes the risk that if they spill coffee it will hurt. THEY do not assume the risk that it could cause such severe burns!!!!!

NO she wasn't driving!! They were parked, the car was not moving.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

AND BY THE WAY McDonalds tried to claim the reason THEY KEPT THEIR COFFEE AT SCALDING TEMPS was because most people didn't drink it until they got home!!!!! So they had knowledge of the severity of the burns to other people, AND they knew that what they were doing was not the industry standard, but they did it anyway, which is why the jury afforded punitive damages.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I hate big companies too, lets sue them all, no caps on punitive damages, we can put em all out of business if we try real hard...it works for smaller companies, but the big ones will take more effort...


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Let say the woman made her own tea and brought it to a boil and had to leave as soon as her tea came to a boil. Puts it in a cup and the same incident happens. Who gets sued here? She still did not know that boiling hot tea could lead to so much medical trauma either. So who gets sued here?


The only difference here is that she did not make it, not whether or not she she knew the dangers of hot liquids. 

Being a old lady really helps her case cause everyone can relate to the nice grandmother who nobody wants something bad happen to them. Well the other thing that helps her case is that giant devil of a company that makes money :-\"


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Wow, the McDonalds case that will never die.

Just some random thoughts. McDonald's coffee, from what I heard way back when, is made so hot so they can use less coffee. Hotter the water, the more flavor they suck out of the crappy quality coffee grounds. 

The lady had such extensive injuries because she was old. If I had done the same thing to myself, I wouldn't have had nearly the same injuries. It doesn't make much difference to that lady but I think people are thinking that McD's coffee is so scalding hot that it causes huge amounts of injuries...well, kinda not really. Yes, it was hotter than most coffee. Some people like that.

The judge reduced the huge award down to something like $500k.

I think hot tea in Chinese restaurants is hotter.

Laura


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

susan tuck said:


> NO Timothy, that's the point!!!!! Water temps for coffee/tea made at home and at restaurants is around 140F, and at that temp if it spills on you, you don't get a 3rd degree burn that requires skin grafts, hospitalizations and multiple surgeries!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! McDonalds KNEW the coffee could do this, and did nothing about it, THAT'S the reason for the punitive damages!!! The average person assumes the risk that if they spill coffee it will hurt. THEY do not assume the risk that it could cause such severe burns!!!!!
> 
> NO she wasn't driving!! They were parked, the car was not moving.


Even worse, parked!
You only took the points you wanted out of my boiling tea story. Susan at what temp would tea boil? And if she had left right after the tea came to a boil would she have treated that tea any different than she treated that Mcdonalds coffee? Probably not, negligent because she never planned on spilling it on herself.
Can I sue home depot for me accidentally spilling acid on my genitals? 

Yes Laura, as you get older your skin is more susceptible to cuts and burns. Maybe she could sue for being old as well!


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## catherine hardigan (Oct 12, 2009)

Ultimately tort reform would only serve to take further power and control from individuals, and protect big businesses and other monied interests. It's surprising that so many people are conned into thinking that corporations have their bests interests at heart... because they don't. Their interests lie solely with making more money, which is often at odds with things that benefit and protect individuals. Why do you think the supreme court is beginning to recognize corporations as having the same rights as individual people... because our judicial system has become VERY sympathetic to business. 

Plutocracy here we come!


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

Well... I am home... the Dentist tried for an hour to get that tooth out when he finally decided to make some cuts to get it out and stitch it back up. It was the first time in the seven months I am here that I've seen a doctor. 

@Susan: thank you. Yes, I am here legally, I do pay my taxes and I have health insurance and one of the reasons I do SAR is to give something back as a Volunteer and to integrate myself. Soon I'll even go to College to get a degree and to be an asset for this country and once my husband deploys I am not going back to Germany, I'll stay here to learn even more about the country I will probably become a citizen of in the long run. Since hubby plans on staying in the US it makes sense to think about Citizenship in the long run. 

Anyhow, as for obesity, Timothy, it's not as easy as you think it is. Not everybody eats themselves into obesity, some suffer from an evil Syndrom called PCOS. I do, and I've had it ever since I was a Teenager... do you really think it's fun being obese and to be judged anytime somebody sees you and makes you responsible for the health crisis in this country? 

Obesity is a problem but not every obese person is responsible for what is going on here.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Sandra, I'm stating facts, has nothing to do with you personally. You are probably a very nice person. Sorry if this affects you directly.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Nope, power tools are a ACCIDENT that happens in split seconds. Being over weight is compounded over time .
> Spilling coffee is a accident as well. Eating and drinking can be dangerous while driving. The fact that the coffee was hot and that somebody doesn't know the affects of SCALDING ANYTHING is a different matter. However she knew the coffee was very hot cause she gOt it there before!'That old lady was driving when she spilt the coffee, right? Her car manufacturer did not have a label warning her that drinking hot liquids are dangerous while driving.
> 
> QUOTE]
> ...


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

This is one case and not my ultimate feelings on corperations in general. I do not believe big business has your personal safety at the top of their priorities. One case at a time here and let's not think people are getting conned cause they believe a certain way in this individual case 


catherine hardigan said:


> Ultimately tort reform would only serve to take further power and control from individuals, and protect big businesses and other monied interests. It's surprising that so many people are conned into thinking that corporations have their bests interests at heart... because they don't. Their interests lie solely with making more money, which is often at odds with things that benefit and protect individuals. Why do you think the supreme court is beginning to recognize corporations as having the same rights as individual people... because our judicial system has become VERY sympathetic to business.
> 
> Plutocracy here we come!


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Sandra, I'm stating facts, has nothing to do with you personally. You are probably a very nice person. Sorry if this affects you directly.


All I am saying is that it's not all that black and white. There is a lot of grey area. Many people have issues with their thyroids which is another reason why people have a hard time to lose weight. Now there is treatment for that and with exercise it should be possible but it's really hard. 

Now if somebody truly ate him/herself into obesity and doesn't make an effort to change, sits at home, all day long because he can't even leave the house anymore, drives around on one of those scooters at Walmart, yeah I fully support your claim. I don't like these kind of people either but as long as you have an active person that doesn't constantly sit at home, doing nothing but watching TV and eating themselves to death... those are not the people that should be judged and made responsible for the problem.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

You would not make a good lawyer!
You have trouble dealing with arguments that are presented to you. Water boils at 212 F so everytime one brings tea to a boil and leaves out the door for work soon after BE AWARE!
Don't get what you are saying about power tools. I already said they are a accident(accidental/ human error) as is coffee! SO NOBODY SHOULD BE SUED. Now if the equipment is defective that is a different problem. 

What aren't you getting since I keep having to repeat my same thoughts?


susan tuck said:


> Timothy Stacy said:
> 
> 
> > Nope, power tools are a ACCIDENT that happens in split seconds. Being over weight is compounded over time .
> ...


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Uh Timothy I brought up the power tools in response to your suggestion that fat people are responsible for the high cost of medical care today. My point was that as imperfect creatures there are many things we are actually responsible for, from being fat (sometimes) to irresponsibly working power tools, to everything in between, but that you cannot blame the problem of our failing health insurance system on fat people that's overly simplistic. 

I brought up the McDonalds case because like those who want to simply blame fat people for the high cost of health care today (an easy target by the way), there is more to the story than meets the eye, and more to the story than big business (like McDonanlds) would have you believe about tort reform. BUT just like what big business did with tort reform (ad campaign designed to make people believe something that wasn't true i.e. frivolous lawsuits were driving big business out of business), you would have people believe that all fat people are responsible for their own health issues and that's just a ridiculous statement.

Oh and by the way, boiling temp has nothing to do with the temp either coffee or tea is served at - at least I have never poured boiling liquid into a cup and seen it still boiling away, guess that's because as it steeps, it cools, but maybe that's just me.


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## catherine hardigan (Oct 12, 2009)

Timothy Stacy said:


> This is one case and not my ultimate feelings on corperations in general. I do not believe big business has your personal safety at the top of their priorities. One case at a time here and let's not think people are getting conned cause they believe a certain way in this individual case


I'm not referring to the McDonald coffee case in particular, but to law suits in general.

This is what commonly happens: An individual brings a law suit against a business. A jury finds in favor of the plaintiff to a certain amount of money. The business then appeals the suit/verdict to a higher court where a judge can then overrule the jury and throw the whole case out, or reduce the payment. 

If people can't see the problem in this then our country really is in trouble. These same businesses, who fund campaigns for our politicians and judges, are many of the same companies pushing for tort reform. Taking a company to court over wrong-doing is one of the only ways we can hold them accountable for their actions... and this is slowly being taken away from us. 

People should be way pissed but for some reason they aren't. Too bad.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

susan tuck said:


> Oh and by the way, boiling temp has nothing to do with the temp either coffee or tea is served at - at least I have never poured boiling liquid into a cup and seen it still boiling away, guess that's because as it steeps, it cools, but maybe that's just me.


Susan, I really hope you are smarter than this or else I'm starting to think you are the reason warning labels are on everything.
When water comes to a boil and you turn the heat off it usually stops boiling very soon after but the temp is well over 170. ](*,)

Is there some underlying issue why your passion for this conversation is so high? 

I like over weight people too but they are a burden on health care. FACT!


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

> Uh Timothy I brought up the power tools in response to your suggestion that fat people are responsible for the high cost of medical care today. My point was that as imperfect creatures there are many things we are actually responsible for, from being fat (sometimes) to irresponsibly working power tools, to everything in between, but that you cannot blame the problem of our failing health insurance system on fat people that's overly simplistic.


I always gringe when I see people working a chainsaw without any kind of protection at all. It's an accident waiting to happen. I don't care how many years that person has experience, working a chainsaw without protective gear is negligent an if you injure yourself you should not receive a single cent out of your insurance.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Timothy I'm only trying to point out that things are not as simplistic as you would have people believe, it is not simply that fat people are fat and it's their fault that we have a health crisis in this country, even if all the fat people could somehow miraculously get thin, this would not solve our health insurance crisis. 

As a matter of fact, I could turn the question around, why are you so fixated on fat people? Did the big kids pick on you when you were little?


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Nope, I was never small nor am I fixated on fat people. As a youth I was somewhere in-between when compared to peers, average in size but stocky. I do notice it harder to keep weight off but I also come and go on exercise plans. 

I'd be willing to bet most over weight people don't exert themselves and have a terrible diet to add to that. Another American phenomenon in fat children, LAZY possibly? I'd say that's the biggest factor!

Most medical conditions are because the person is fat and not the other way around. Again there are exceptions but not as many as I'm trying to be led to believe.

In most instances of obesity it's the "what came first the chicken or the egg scenario"? You are over weight and now you have xxxx


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

You and I will just have to agree to disagree!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Sandra King said:


> I always gringe when I see people working a chainsaw without any kind of protection at all. It's an accident waiting to happen. I don't care how many years that person has experience, working a chainsaw without protective gear is negligent an if you injure yourself you should not receive a single cent out of your insurance.


who uses safety equipment with a chain saw???


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Nope, I was never small nor am I fixated on fat people. As a youth I was somewhere in-between when compared to peers, average in size but stocky. I do notice it harder to keep weight off but I also come and go on exercise plans.
> 
> * I'd be willing to bet most over weight people don't exert themselves and have a terrible diet to add to that. Another American phenomenon in fat children, LAZY possibly? I'd say that's the biggest factor!*
> 
> ...


Because it's made easy for people. 

Think about it. It's so easy that you've got a drive thru everywhere. Even at a bank. You don't have to get out of the car, walking anymore. At Walmart you simply hop on one of those scooters and drive around... people don't have to walk at all, except from the house to the car and that's it. How are kids supposed to be any different if the parents live it every single day right in front of their eyes?

Strip them of the playstation, X-box and the computer, get them a bike and a basketball or a trampoline... let them be KIDS! But oh my god, they could come home with scratches and bruises or even a broken arm because they climbed a tree (heck we were proud if we had something broken, we would show that around and get signatures from everybody on the cast) and a treehouse doesn't go conform with the homeowners association and god forbid the neighbors could complain about loud children and oh wait... a trampoline won't be covered by homeowners...


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

****ing excuses for everything including training dogs. A take no responsibility society. Find someone or something to blame for everything!

Maybe it's a good thing they don't legalize marijuana, that would be the perfect excuse for fat lazy people.

Gotta go now!


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## catherine hardigan (Oct 12, 2009)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Most medical conditions are because the person is fat and not the other way around. Again there are exceptions but not as many as I'm trying to be led to believe.


I hope you realize, Timothy, that our medical/insurance/prescription drug system is set up to make money off the unhealthy. If you're dead or healthy they can't make any money, it's that middle ground where they can really rake it in. There are big incentives behind keeping people ill or thinking they are.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Timothy Stacy said:


> ****ing excuses for everything including training dogs. A take no responsibility society. Find someone or something to blame for everything!
> 
> Maybe it's a good thing they don't legalize marijuana, that would be the perfect excuse for fat lazy people.
> 
> Gotta go now!


No Tim, it's just not the simplistic black and white society you think it is, that's all. There's plenty of blame to go around.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Well it really is not all that simple.
After having logged every morsel of food I ate for 6months (avg 1200 calories), walked 4 miles a day, went to the gym and worked out with a PT 3 times a week and not loosing a damned thing, I can tell you it is not always easy. 

The typical response is, well you must not have recorded things accurately or you were in starvation mode (which has no scientific evidence to support it other than yeah, you don't eat your metabolism slows during) --I had one doctor tell me I 'had to" be eating 3000 calories a day. I am a freaking chemist by training and I know how to weight and measure things.

With an average waking body temp of 95 and during the day of 97, normal thyroid values, and also being post surgical menopause (which makes it even harder) due to PCOS and severe endometriosis the ONLY help I can get from a doctor is the suggestion to "gain weight so you can qualify for the surgery" ........ so there.....that is our medical culture. There is no help. I go to a dietician they tell me to eat more. I eat more and excercise. I do that then I gain. it sometimes is very puzzling and seems to deny thermodynamics. Thing is, like Sandra said, there are many folks with these kind of problems.

All I would hope is that people realize that not all fat people are sedentery slugs stuffing their face with food all the time. 

You have any other problem and people have a bit of sympathy or empathy but if you are fat all you get is revulsion and jokes and hatred.

After 6 months no progress it is hard to stick to it. I am back to trying to and figuring out how to ramp things up more (while still working a sedentery job but next thing is to try to make some standing up desks)...I figure the only answer is to move ALL day to burn it off because the minute I sit I go into hibernation mode (even with weight training and adequate protein)

Oh, concerning health - my resting BP no meds is 110/70 - Had a cath done and was told my arteries are clear as a teenager's. Probably due to the excercise and eating a noninflammatory high potassium low sodium diet. But who wants to be fat. It is disgusting. I the person, however, am NOT.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

I couldn't tell you the last time I've waited in s drive thru. I walk into Dunkin Dounuts for coffee with one person in line while the drive thru has ten cars. That drives me crazy!


Sandra King said:


> Because it's made easy for people.
> 
> Think about it. It's so easy that you've got a drive thru everywhere. Even at a bank. You don't have to get out of the car, walking anymore. At Walmart you simply hop on one of those scooters and drive around... people don't have to walk at all, except from the house to the car and that's it. How are kids supposed to be any different if the parents live it every single day right in front of their eyes?
> 
> Strip them of the playstation, X-box and the computer, get them a bike and a basketball or a trampoline... let them be KIDS! But oh my god, they could come home with scratches and bruises or even a broken arm because they climbed a tree (heck we were proud if we had something broken, we would show that around and get signatures from everybody on the cast) and a treehouse doesn't go conform with the homeowners association and god forbid the neighbors could complain about loud children and oh wait... a trampoline won't be covered by homeowners...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Timothy Stacy said:


> I couldn't tell you the last time I've waited in s drive thru. I walk into Dunkin Dounuts for coffee with one person in line while the drive thru has ten cars. That drives me crazy!


it is the same at almost every fast food place..


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

Timothy Stacy said:


> I couldn't tell you the last time I've waited in s drive thru. I walk into Dunkin Dounuts for coffee with one person in line while the drive thru has ten cars. That drives me crazy!


Me too. Me too. I hate drive thrus. It's much easier to walk in and get your order instead of being stuck in a 10 minute line.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Sandra King said:


> Me too. Me too. I hate drive thrus. It's much easier to walk in and get your order instead of being stuck in a 10 minute line.


Me too!!!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

catherine hardigan said:


> I hope you realize, Timothy, that our medical/insurance/prescription drug system is set up to make money off the unhealthy. If you're dead or healthy they can't make any money, it's that middle ground where they can really rake it in. There are big incentives behind keeping people ill or thinking they are.


Insurance companies do not make money off of people that are unhealthy..they lose money on those unhealthy individuals.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Nancy, I feel for you and I do understand there are real conditions that lead to this. Just too many others that shrug at their 4o pounds over weight and you see them hitting up a double cheese burger and fries. It happens everywhere. Then their are people like yourself with legitimate conditions.

Hope you find a resolution or something that helps to meet your goals.


Nancy Jocoy said:


> Well it really is not all that simple.
> After having logged every morsel of food I ate for 6months (avg 1200 calories), walked 4 miles a day, went to the gym and worked out with a PT 3 times a week and not loosing a damned thing, I can tell you it is not always easy.
> 
> The typical response is, well you must not have recorded things accurately or you were in starvation mode (which has no scientific evidence to support it other than yeah, you don't eat your metabolism slows during) --I had one doctor tell me I 'had to" be eating 3000 calories a day. I am a freaking chemist by training and I know how to weight and measure things.
> ...


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

> With an average waking body temp of 95 and during the day of 97, normal thyroid values, and also being post surgical menopause (which makes it even harder) due to PCOS and severe endometriosis the ONLY help I can get from a doctor is the suggestion to "gain weight so you can qualify for the surgery" ........ so there.....that is our medical culture. There is no help. I go to a dietician they tell me to eat more. I eat more and excercise. I do that then I gain. it sometimes is very puzzling and seems to deny thermodynamics. Thing is, like Sandra said, there are many folks with these kind of problems.


I would actually qualify for the surgery that's how bad it has gotten and I have no processed food at home at all. I am literally starving myself and I can't lose a single pound. I was told about the starvation mode as well and the doctor said that even when I wouldn't do anything at all, I'd have to eat around 2400 calories to lose weight and once I'm active, pretty much the same as you because that is what the body needs to start burning energy but honestly, I can't eat that much. Especially on hot days I prefer fruit and salads. 

However, I hear you about the PCOS issue and the working out. Worst thing of PCOS is the infertility but right now I am glad I can't get pregnant because due to the weight it would be a risky pregnancy...

Have they put you on Metformin? I tried but it didn't really work for me, it had some serious sideeffects so I had to stop taking it.


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Nancy, I feel for you and I do understand there are real conditions that lead to this. Just too many others that shrug at their 4o pounds over weight and you see them hitting up a double cheese burger and fries. It happens everywhere. Then their are people like yourself with legitimate conditions.
> 
> Hope you find a resolution or something that helps to meet your goals.


On any real diet you are actually allowed to eat stuff like that. Check out the "Eat this not That" book. You'd be surprised which burgers you are actually allowed to eat. Funny thing is that a Big Mac has less calories than a Cesar Salad. Wrong world, isn't it?


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## catherine hardigan (Oct 12, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> Insurance companies do not make money off of people that are unhealthy..they lose money on those unhealthy individuals.


Ahhh but they do. They deny claims, have annual and lifetime maximums, deductibles, co-pays, charge exorbitant rates for maternity coverage etc. You (and possibly your employer) pay them whether you are healthy or sick, and then when you get sick (or pregnant) you pay a big chunk of the bill on top of that.

Keep in mind that many insurance providers will not cover preventive medicine, and when you do get sick they can find a preexisting condition to deny you coverage. Or they'll just try to deny you coverage for the hell of it.

Any way you look at it they are making money whether you're healthy or sick.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Sandra King said:


> Because it's made easy for people.
> 
> Think about it. It's so easy that you've got a drive thru everywhere. Even at a bank. You don't have to get out of the car, walking anymore. At Walmart you simply hop on one of those scooters and drive around... people don't have to walk at all, except from the house to the car and that's it. How are kids supposed to be any different if the parents live it every single day right in front of their eyes?
> 
> Strip them of the playstation, X-box and the computer, get them a bike and a basketball or a trampoline... let them be KIDS! But oh my god, they could come home with scratches and bruises or even a broken arm because they climbed a tree (heck we were proud if we had something broken, we would show that around and get signatures from everybody on the cast) and a treehouse doesn't go conform with the homeowners association and god forbid the neighbors could complain about loud children and oh wait... a trampoline won't be covered by homeowners...


I agree 100% and I think the high rate of excuses given for kids and adults for things ties directly into making things easy for people . Do something stupid nowadays and it's ok you have ADD , ADHD , ABC, XYZ . If you're fat it's not your fault you were born that way . You have such and such medical condition . 

There have always been people who were more prone to getting fat and all sorts of medicals things to back it up . 

I agree kids are fatter now for the reasons you stated and the kids born to be more prone to gaining weight are even fatter then kids with similar issue born years ago . Adults in America are now fatter they then have ever been for very similar reasons as the kids . THEY DO FAR LESS PHYSICALLY . People with the same medical issues stayed thinner years ago because they did more and ate better . Most people adults / children could be thinner if they did more , ate less and ate better . 

The reasons for how a certain persons body gets fat has now been twisted into an excuse for being fat . I agree with Tim it's a what came first the chicken or the egg . When it comes to obesity it's rude nowadays to believe the fat person can do more then they have to control their obesity . IMO they can and history has proven that .


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

Jim Nash said:


> I agree 100% and I think the high rate of excuses given for kids and adults for things ties directly into making things easy for people . Do something stupid nowadays and it's ok you have ADD , ADHD , ABC, XYZ . If you're fat it's not your fault you were born that way . You have such and such medical condition .
> 
> There have always been people who were more prone to getting fat and all sorts of medicals things to back it up .
> 
> ...


Not every medical condition is an excuse. I absolutely agree with you, however there are medical conditions out there that make it really really really hard an it is a constant battle. Take PCOS for example, obesity is just ONE symptoms of many. That syndrom is a real problem for many women.
http://www.womenshealth.gov/publications/our-publications/fact-sheet/polycystic-ovary-syndrome.cfm


> *What are the symptoms of PCOS?*
> 
> The symptoms of PCOS can vary from woman to woman. Some of the symptoms of PCOS include:
> 
> ...


Trust me, it's not easy to live with that Syndrome. Thank god I only have four of those symptoms... women with that syndrome have a serious problem, especially with the beauty standards of todays world and it's not their fault. It's an unknown cause.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

catherine hardigan said:


> Ahhh but they do. They deny claims, have annual and lifetime maximums, deductibles, co-pays, charge exorbitant rates for maternity coverage etc. You (and possibly your employer) pay them whether you are healthy or sick, and then when you get sick (or pregnant) you pay a big chunk of the bill on top of that.
> 
> Keep in mind that many insurance providers will not cover preventive medicine, and when you do get sick they can find a preexisting condition to deny you coverage. Or they'll just try to deny you coverage for the hell of it.
> 
> Any way you look at it they are making money whether you're healthy or sick.


then drop your insurance...don't feed the machine..


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Sandra King said:


> Not every medical condition is an excuse. I absolutely agree with you, however there are medical conditions out there that make it really really really hard an it is a constant battle. Take PCOS for example, obesity is just ONE symptoms of many. That syndrom is a real problem for many women.
> http://www.womenshealth.gov/publications/our-publications/fact-sheet/polycystic-ovary-syndrome.cfm
> Trust me, it's not easy to live with that Syndrome. Thank god I only have four of those symptoms... women with that syndrome have a serious problem, especially with the beauty standards of todays world and it's not their fault. It's an unknown cause.


I feel sorry for you . But you aren't understanding what I wrote . I'd go into it in more detail but I can guarantee you or someone else will think I'm picking on you . If you want me to go into more detail let me know just know you are running the risk of getting your feelings or someone elses feelings hurt .


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Joby, you decided to start a diet and get some exercise a while back. How that going? Need an update and this discussion would be a good time. 

My knees were bothering me and so I started one a short time after you did. Never got a starting weight but have lost about 40 lbs. Got about 25lbs to go but my knees aren't bothering me. Didn't go to a doctor either.

Tim, I think the problem with your approach in this discussion is that you are just being way to logical for todays mindsets. It is always someone elses fault today. There is absolutey no reason to accept any responsibilty for doing something stupid.

Sandra. logging is/or was the mainstay of the community where I live. I use a chainsaw almost daily myself. I am wondering what kind of safety equipment you think people should wear. Leathers? Face shields? what?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

don...

not the greatest...otherwise you would have seen the results already, I just realized I am weak.....but dont worry I dont have health insurance currently..

but I found a new workout partner, here is his video..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXCwz2sDc24&feature=related


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> ... My knees were bothering me and so I started one a short time after you did. Never got a starting weight but have lost about 40 lbs. Got about 25lbs to go but my knees aren't bothering me.


I hear you! Even 10 extra pounds is a major stressor to weight-bearing joints.

It's amazing to me how different I feel when I eat right (and when I don't). I've been more than 40 pounds (maybe more than 50, in fact) overweight before. I never realized how much it affected everything (from less energy to aching feet to back and knee problems) until I changed the way I ate and went back to normal weight.

I need to really stay on it. I don't ever want to face a major weight-loss challenge again. I was more than twenty years younger then, too, and I am certain that my metabolism would do me no favors if I let it happen again now. One thing I make sure not to do is wear stretchy waistbands. :lol: I need the "hint" of the unforgiving jeans waist. 

Good for you! (And good for your knees!) 8)


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Yeh, having a partner like that would be depressing. LOL


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Tim, I think the problem with your approach in this discussion is that you are just being way to logical for todays mindsets. It is always someone elses fault today. There is absolutey no reason to accept any responsibilty for doing something stupid.
> QUOTE]
> 
> Is exaggeration another thing men do, kind of like not asking for directions and not reading instructions? Silly question, right?!?! How big was the one that got away??!!!
> ...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

my best friend is 450-500 lbs. 6'4"..pushing 50 yrs old....

could live 30 more years or could die tomorrow (in his own words)..never smoked or had a drink of liquor or done drugs in his life, straight as they come...

but man,,, the stress on his knees and feet must be tremendous..

he works harder than me btw...which is astounding.

for the record he has not been to the doctor in 20 years..
he did go to the dentist after 20 years of not going, last week...he had 1 cavity!!

He just told me yesterday, he "might" start brushing his teeth on a regular basis...lol


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I hear you! Even 10 extra pounds is a major stressor to weight-bearing joints.
> 
> It's amazing to me how different I feel when I eat right (and when I don't). I've been more than 40 pounds (maybe more than 50, in fact) overweight before. I never realized how much it affected everything (from less energy to aching feet to back and knee problems) until I changed the way I ate and went back to normal weight.
> 
> ...


It was tough at first because I am not a slim fast kind of guy. I worked around it and I can live with a slim fast breakfast, "Smart One" weight watchers lunch, as long as I have one decent meal a day to look forward to. I bought a bunch of rib eye steaks for that. About 1 1/4 lbs each and every few days I bar-b-que one and eat half for two days with a half a backed potatoe and a salad. That is what makes it livable. Quit drinking sodas cold turkey and a gal of milk last till the expiration date when it would last maybe 2 1/2 days before. The main thing is my knees quit hurting. What is blowing me away is the amount of money I am saving with slim fast on those dinners. Way cheaper that stocking the frig with everything. Actually, knowing that there will be one decent meal a day makes a big difference. Not a huge meal, just red meat and potatoes.

In all this medical cost discussion, I will say when I decided to do away with the teeth, I paid for everything out of pocket. :grin:


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I hear you! Even 10 extra pounds is a major stressor to weight-bearing joints.
> 
> It's amazing to me how different I feel when I eat right (and when I don't). I've been more than 40 pounds (maybe more than 50, in fact) overweight before. I never realized how much it affected everything (from less energy to aching feet to back and knee problems) until I changed the way I ate and went back to normal weight.
> 
> ...


I agree . Good job Don . One of my sisters is severely overweight and has had knee surgery because of it . She's now looking at a second surgery on one of her knees . She has not lost weight since I noticed the gains 20 some years ago . The more weight she gained the more problems she got . Asthma , sleep apnea , diabetes , high blood presure , high cholestrole , knee problems . I've heard she has tried to lose weight but each new problem makes it harder for her to lose weight . That's according o the rest of the family . I've been told to stay out of it .


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

Jim Nash said:


> I feel sorry for you . But you aren't understanding what I wrote . I'd go into it in more detail but I can guarantee you or someone else will think I'm picking on you . If you want me to go into more detail let me know just know you are running the risk of getting your feelings or someone elses feelings hurt .


Ah, don't worry, I think I got it now and it's okay, you can go more into detail, since I and other obese people from on here, are actually actively working on the issue, we shouldn't have to project it on ourselves


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Sandra King said:


> Not every medical condition is an excuse. I absolutely agree with you, however there are medical conditions out there that make it really really really hard an it is a constant battle. Take PCOS for example, obesity is just ONE symptoms of many. That syndrom is a real problem for many women.
> http://www.womenshealth.gov/publications/our-publications/fact-sheet/polycystic-ovary-syndrome.cfm
> Trust me, it's not easy to live with that Syndrome. Thank god I only have four of those symptoms... women with that syndrome have a serious problem, especially with the beauty standards of todays world and it's not their fault. It's an unknown cause.


Since you said it was ok . 

Most of those symptoms of that Syndrome are things commonly caused BY obesity and/or bad diets . It's that chicken or the egg thing over and over . The lines have gotten very blurred on the problems being fat causes and problems that cause fat . I think the biggest symptom that todays thinking is very wrong is the GROWING population of fat people . Todays thinking certainly hasn't help reduce obesity . 

I'll point them all out latere but my son came in and flopped on the couch saying there wasn't anything to do . Having thought of this thread we are heading out the door to my gym .


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Did you guys know that now in California, Arizona and Michigan food stamps are accepted at Fast Food restaurants? I've read that it's cheaper to feed a family from Fast Food restaurants than it is to buy fresh food from the grocery and prepare it at home. Some people can't afford a decent home cooked meal and that's a shame.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

susan tuck said:


> Did you guys know that now in California, Arizona and Michigan food stamps are accepted at Fast Food restaurants? I've read that it's cheaper to feed a family from Fast Food restaurants than it is to buy fresh food from the grocery and prepare it at home. Some people can't afford a decent home cooked meal and that's a shame.


Did you know there are millions of people on welfare that can't find jobs yet millions of Illegal aliens are coming here finding jobs for the past (?) Years?

Again, who is ultimately responsible for the own well being?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> Did you guys know that now in California, Arizona and Michigan food stamps are accepted at Fast Food restaurants? I've read that it's cheaper to feed a family from Fast Food restaurants than it is to buy fresh food from the grocery and prepare it at home. Some people can't afford a decent home cooked meal and that's a shame.


Oh no. I get it, what you say about the cheap to-go food versus home-cooked, but it's so sad that the very cheap foods most of our grandparents knew how to make are kind of a lost "art" now.

I like to eat well. But cheap! 

Think of that McDonald's meal's food stamps and how far they could have gone on (for example) bulk dry beans and bulk brown rice, or a vat of homemade barley soup, or chili, or a bushel of green salad with beans and other inexpensive protein added .... 

And I'm not preaching for anyone else anything I don't do. :lol:

I like the "game" of cooking for a few hours on the weekend so there's real food in the fridge even after a long workday. Most of the admittedly long time spent on cooking a batch of beans, for example, is unattended.

Seems like most of us have cheap (and good!) foods in our lineage; seems a shame that a generation or two ago, we kind of tossed it out with the advent of prepared foods.

I know it's not that simple. But I'm grateful for the bit of cooking know-how that can turn cheap food into good meals for less than a McDonald's visit.

But I digress. :lol: :lol:

Stepping off the soap box ....



eta

I do get it that liking the cheap-eats game is a big plus, and that not everyone has the desire to do major cooking, or wants to (or even can) allocate the time to kitchen stuff .....


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Connie here cooking good food is a huge part of the culture. We still have the art and practice daily. Your ever down this way Id be happy to throw down some good groceries.  you pick it I'll fix it!!

I cant hardly do the bag thing lol


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Brian Anderson said:


> Connie here cooking good food is a huge part of the culture. We still have the art and practice daily. Your ever down this way Id be happy to throw down some good groceries.  you pick it I'll fix it!!


Where are you?

The cultural "We still have the art and practice daily" thing is kinda what I meant. It's a shame to let it fade away, if for no other reason than the cheap-and-good food that can be produced using some of the methods our grandparents used every day.

_"Throw down some good groceries." _ I love that!


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Connie, it doesn't even have to be a cooking ordeal. A couple of big cans of pork/n/beans($4.00) and a lb of ball parks from Costco($2.50) feeds a lot more people for $6 bucks than McD's will for $6. I have pork and beans about once a week still because it is quick, easy and tastes good. There are a lot of things that are cheap and easy.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Where are you?
> 
> The cultural "We still have the art and practice daily" thing is kinda what I meant. It's a shame to let it fade away, if for no other reason than the cheap-and-good food that can be produced using some of the methods our grandparents used every day.
> 
> _"Throw down some good groceries." _ I love that!


Louisiana where we can make a lil bit go a long way. Its passed from generation to generation. Recipes 200 years old and still make ya slap ya mama for not makin it that good lol. (just a funny saying) please dont slap her lol


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

That's exactly it, fast food or prepared foods like hot dogs or canned franks and beans are a lot cheaper than fresh produce and fresh meat. That's a problem, at least I think it's a problem that has to do with our society more than the individual. Of course much greater men and women than myself say it much better than I can:

"Our society must make it right and possible for old people not to fear the young or be deserted by them, for the test of a civilization is the way that it cares for its helpless members." ~Pearl S. Buck (1892-1973), _My Several Worlds_ [1954].

The test of the morality of a society is what it does for its children. 
~Dietrich Bonhoeffer

A decent provision for the poor is the true test of civilization.
~Samuel Johnson, _Boswell: Life of Johnson_

The most certain test by which we judge whether a country is really free is the amount of security enjoyed by minorities.~John E. E. Dalberg, Lord Acton, _The History of Freedom in Antiquity_, [1877].


"...the moral test of government is how that government treats those who are in the dawn of life, the children; those who are in the twilight of life, the elderly; those who are in the shadows of life; the sick, the needy and the handicapped. " ~ Last Speech of Hubert H. Humphrey

"A nation's greatness is measured by how it treats its weakest members." ~ Mahatma Ghandi 


"Any society, any nation, is judged on the basis of how it treats its weakest members -- the last, the least, the littlest." 
~Cardinal Roger Mahony, In a 1998 letter, Creating a Culture of Life 


The greatness of America is in how it treats its weakest members: the elderly, the infirm, the handicapped, the underprivileged, the unborn. ~Bill Federer


"A society will be judged on the basis of how it treats its weakest members and among the most vulnerable are surely the unborn and the dying," 
~Pope John Paul II


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

susan tuck said:


> . That's a problem, at least I think it's a problem that has to do with our society more than the individual. Of course much greater men and women than myself say it much better than I can:


I like this one..

AJ: What's the purpose? 
Livia: Of what? 
AJ: Being... Here on our planet. Earth. Those kids are dead meat. What's the use? What's the purpose? 
Livia: Why does everything have to have a purpose? The world is a jungle. If you want my advice, anthony, don't expect happiness, you won't get it, people let you down. And I'm not naming any names, *but in the end, you die in your own arms.* 
AJ: You mean alone? 
*Livia: It's all a big nothing. What what makes you think you're so special?*


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Brian Anderson said:


> Louisiana where we can make a lil bit go a long way. Its passed from generation to generation. Recipes 200 years old and still make ya slap ya mama for not makin it that good lol. (just a funny saying) please dont slap her lol



Luckily, I learned the "it'll make you slap your mama" thing last month. Here, in fact! :lol:

I do believe (well, I know) that our own David Frost was fixin' holiday BBQ when that saying came up.

Yes, recipes that make a little bit go a long way is exactly what I meant. 8)


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> That's exactly it, fast food or prepared foods like hot dogs or canned franks and beans are a lot cheaper than fresh produce and fresh meat.


But a batch of homemade beans with a side of cole slaw or green salad is cheaper.

I understand what you're saying; I just mean that there are other factors too, and I do believe that one of them is our having tossed out so much of our food know-how when prepared foods (followed quickly by fast foods) swooped in.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

fresh maters, a little middlin' meat, lettuce and mayonaise. how can that not be healthy. If it isn't, well I figure I've already lived more life than I have left, when it's time it's time. I can think of three events that should have ended this life, I'm going to enjoy what's left and that includes riding my Push, I mean Cushman.



DFrost


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Susan some people enjoy not working, chew on that. Tells me they don't mind being poor at all. I'm not talking 1920s poor, I'm talking modern day lazy ****s who don't give a ****, don't have a job, never had a job, don't want a job. Again these aren't helpless individuals, their leeches and we are their host!!!Lifers on welfare who have played the system for generations. They come in all races, colors and nationalities. They are the people producing more children than they can take care of on my measly salary. Strains the system so normal folk like myself can't even have more children and wife that has to work as well! All for the sake of the lifer on welfare with 4 kids!

Then there are the few that are down on their luck! But not the majority!


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Susan some people enjoy not working, chew on that. Tells me they don't mind being poor at all. I'm not talking 1920s poor, I'm talking modern day lazy ****s who don't give a ****, don't have a job, never had a job, don't want a job. Again these aren't helpless individuals, their leeches and we are their host!!!


Sure, there are assholes in all walks of life, rich and poor, but most people are not like that. I always hear about all these lazy people but you know what? I don't see them. And you'd think I would because I volunteer where a lot of poor people live here in So Cali, South Central, Inglewood and East LA, and I'm not talking about the "nice" parts, either. You know what most of the people are that I see? Uneducated, poor, but trying hard as hell to keep their heads above water, like just about everybody else I know.:wink:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

David Frost said:


> fresh maters, a little middlin' meat, lettuce and mayonaise. how can that not be healthy. If it isn't, well I figure I've already lived more life than I have left, when it's time it's time. I can think of three events that should have ended this life, I'm going to enjoy what's left and that includes riding my Push, I mean Cushman.
> 
> 
> 
> DFrost


You make me hungry when you say BLT. Even just the LT!


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

susan tuck said:


> Sure, there are assholes in all walks of life, rich and poor, but most people are not like that. I always hear about all these lazy people but you know what? I don't see them. And you'd think I would because I volunteer where a lot of poor people live here in So Cali, South Central, Inglewood and East LA, and I'm not talking about the "nice" parts, either. You know what most of the people are that I see? Uneducated, poor, but trying hard as hell to keep their heads above water, like just about everybody else I know.:wink:


Guess it's all a made up myth!


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Susan some people enjoy not working, chew on that. Tells me they don't mind being poor at all. I'm not talking 1920s poor, I'm talking modern day lazy ****s who don't give a ****, don't have a job, never had a job, don't want a job. Again these aren't helpless individuals, their leeches and we are their host!!!Lifers on welfare who have played the system for generations. They come in all races, colors and nationalities. They are the people producing more children than they can take care of on my measly salary. Strains the system so normal folk like myself can't even have more children and wife that has to work as well! All for the sake of the lifer on welfare with 4 kids!
> 
> Then there are the few that are down on their luck! But not the majority!


I know the myths about welfare professionals and people on welfare having a lot of kids is something a lot of people think is true (that old friend, the sound byte), but the truth is a little different. Here you go, hopefully while this dispells some of those myths it will also put your mind a little more at ease:

http://www.benchmarkinstitute.org/t_by_t/pb/welfare_myths.pdf


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Now ya got me wondering who all those kids belong to while I am waiting for a woman to cash all those food stamps. Come to think of it, the kids always leave with those women also. More than likely they are the live in babysitters while mom and dad are hard at work, eh.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Think of that McDonald's meal's food stamps and how far they could have gone on (for example) bulk dry beans and bulk brown rice, or a vat of homemade barley soup, or chili, or a bushel of green salad with beans and other inexpensive protein added ....


Honestly though you raise a valid point here. Food stamps can buy all kinds of processed crap foods but not someting basic like TP. If they were limited to whole natural foods and dried beans, etc think how much better that would be. But coca cola corporation would have a COW if you could not buy 2 liter bottles of soda with the darned things. .... At least the WIC program specified healthier foods.

The irony is when we were young we qualified for WIC (never on food stamps) but we did not use it because, at the time, they would cover infant formula but not the foods I would need to eat as a nursing mother (nursed both kids for a year)--

Food Stamps are one of our biggest forms of corporate welfare I think!


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I have no idea who your neighbors are Don, but I do know about the myth of the Welfare Queen, she never existed either. You can thank Reagan for that particular myth, well maybe not Reagan himself, but his PR folks. It was another easy to repeat sound byte. Just like the one the PR folks made up about how we so desperately needed tort reform to protect all the big companies from all those frivolous lawsuits........snicker snicker snicker. 

It's also a sad fact that that the poorer the neighborhood the more fast food restaurants and the fewer and far between are the grocery stores. I don't know why that is though.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

susan tuck said:


> I know the myths about welfare professionals and people on welfare having a lot of kids is something a lot of people think is true (that old friend, the sound byte), but the truth is a little different. Here you go, hopefully while this dispells some of those myths it will also put your mind a little more at ease:
> 
> http://www.benchmarkinstitute.org/t_by_t/pb/welfare_myths.pdf


I know plenty of welfare professionals/foodstamps...and quite a few medicaid/medicare professionals. it is not a myth..It is a way of life. trust me on that..if you are not in the trenches you do not see it...welfare is like anything else, good intentions that result in terrible consequences for the most part.

How many people do you know on foodstamps/medicaid/medicare that are of healthy working age? just go to Aldi's and wait in line....you will see.

How many 3rd generation welfare families do YOU know, I know several...

I used to do painting/maintenance for an apartment complex that was over 80% section 8 recipients...none that I could tell were disabled in any way, every section 8 had multiple kids, 2-6 kids, and some were professional fosters...the funniest part was they all had live-in boyfriends (against the rules) and almost every car in the lot was a year or two old and worth about $25,000-$45,000, I saw the mostly Cadillac Escalades and Chrysler 300's per capita, in that lot that I have seen in my life.

You go in the apartments and they all had big screen TV's, x boxes, surround sound and 10 pair of $100+ shoes, the kids had Babyfat and Sean John and other name brand clothes...nothing like seeing a section 8 foodstamp kid in a $200.00 outfit...when you are driving a $700.00 car...and slaving away to fix their plumbing...

The amount of fraud and stealing from Government programs is tremendous, and if it is not fraud it creates lazy, dependent people at a high % rate...along with the truly needy...


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

susan tuck said:


> I know the myths about welfare professionals and people on welfare having a lot of kids is something a lot of people think is true (that old friend, the sound byte), but the truth is a little different. Here you go, hopefully while this dispells some of those myths it will also put your mind a little more at ease:
> 
> http://www.benchmarkinstitute.org/t_by_t/pb/welfare_myths.pdf


Yeah I was imagining all the times I watched someone hand over a link card while wearing a hundred dollar pair of designer jeans with brand new sneakers and gold chains, with a hat so new it still had stickers on it. All the while surrounded by 3 kids at the least.
Or the time the lady in front of me had her cart stacked with more meat then I seen any one person buy at one time; ribs, steaks, chicken. Wearing fresh sandals, gucci bag, nails freshly done, hair perfect, and that link card. The best part was when I saw her in the parking lot loading her newer model Cadillac escalade. She must have been going to a WORK party.

I don't have a lot of time to talk, I just got back from Ruby Tuesday. I ordered the sizzling hot steak platter. The waitress dropped it off at my table and said be careful it's hot. While reaching for the hot sauce I dumped the whole plate on my lap. I got some serious burns! Would have never ordered it if I know it could cause that much damage.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

I say food stamps from here on out are only good for Tofu and soy products, fruits, and veggies, bread, and rice! That is s great idea, if you want meat gotta pay cash!


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

More then likely they were given no other choice.

And don't go into all these jobs laying about because they don't want to do anything because they're too lazy. Because I've worked those jobs and you can't even pay the rent much less eat if the WHOLE family doesn't work. Meaning, children, mom and pop. That also means the children don't go to school. That also means that the company OWNS you, lock stock and barrel. You, your children, your children's children.

Yeah, maybe you can survive.
Be a nice corporate citizen and maybe they'll fulfill their obligation.
Though their record isn't that great, yeah maybe, just maybe they'll take care of their end of the bargain.
Only just put those children into the fields so you can get ahead.

Is that the ticket?

profanity included.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wV1lZMTCqf8&feature=related


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## Laney Rein (Feb 9, 2011)

Out here it's predominantly Hispanic. They are supposedly oppressed yet most are quite well fed. They say 80% of America today is obese and 50% of that is morbidly obese. The IN LOOK for today's teen-ager girl is hip highers w/crack showing and crop tops and slop hanging out around the middle.

I was shopping at Walmart and was in line behind two very heavy Hispanic women wearing enough makeup for a masquerade party and fancy dresses and glitzy shoes and purses yet no wedding rings but using welfare coupons to buy food. The food was all expensive brand name cereals (sugar kids type), Sarah Lee bread, etc while I'm buying store brand stuff. Doesn't make much sense to me.

I hate to cook but can whip up a big pot of posole or jambalaya with leftovers and they last for days. I hate McDonalds food.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Some people just want to believe the myths and bullshit.:-D I get it, I just disagree with you completely. In any case, have a nice night.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Susan, you have commented several times about some of us believe the myths. I really think you should check your sources. CNBC tells a story ther way. Has nothng to do with the reaL world. The last ones you should believe is the media......I believe the Hot Coffee segment was on CNBC. I live in a town with no industry or anything that has a very poor population. Lots of welfare recipients with lots of kids that don't work. I can, and have had, a job for the last twenty+ years. I turn people down regularily. Why do they call? Because they see me working at other people places. Why don't they call the ones on welfare? Because they don't work and no on ever see's them work so they don't even know they are available. In short, they aren't looking becauise they got on the gravy train. That is reality.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Laney Rein said:


> They are supposedly oppressed yet most are quite well fed.




This doesn't seem a tad like blanket racism to you?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

susan tuck said:


> Some people just want to believe the myths and bullshit.:-D I get it, I just disagree with you completely. In any case, have a nice night.


I have lived most of my adult life in that culture, trust me it is NOT a myth...

When the shyt hits the fan here in this country, like in Greece, who do you think will be rioting and looting and setting the cities on fire??


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Susan, you have commented several times about some of us believe the myths. I really think you should check your sources. CNBC tells a story ther way. Has nothng to do with the reaL world. The last ones you should believe is the media......I believe the Hot Coffee segment was on CNBC. I live in a town with no industry or anything that has a very poor population. Lots of welfare recipients with lots of kids that don't work. I can, and have had, a job for the last twenty+ years. I turn people down regularily. Why do they call? Because they see me working at other people places. Why don't they call the ones on welfare? Because they don't work and no on ever see's them work so they don't even know they are available. In short, they aren't looking becauise they got on the gravy train. That is reality.


Don: Previous to the documentary I actually learned about tort reform when I was in college in the 70s when Tort Reform initiatives were introduced in California. Hot Coffee was not a segment on CNBC, it was an 1 & 1/2 hour documentary. Since the documentary, I have done a little bit more background checking regarding Tort Reform on the Internet. 

I do not believe everything I read on the Internet or that I hear on the news, BUT I do check the sources of such information, try to read both sides of an issue, and come to an informed opinion. The fact of the matter is Welfare Queen and Frivolous Law Suits are PERFECT examples of what you just said. People believing what they hear, what sounds good, what they want to believe, without checking their facts, because both Welfare Queen and out of control frivolous law suits destroying big business, are nothing but self serving myths, one made to serve a politician and one to serve big business.

Finally I am not going to comment on anyone's personal anecdotal "evidence" as proof as anything.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

This is taking a wrong turn fast.
Turn it around and you wont have to put up with another thread lock!


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> I have lived most of my adult life in that culture, trust me it is NOT a myth...
> 
> When the shyt hits the fan here in this country, like in Greece, who do you think will be rioting and looting and setting the cities on fire??


Thanks Joby!
Some just love to believe in fair tales. Very said how naive people are.
I say we start all high school drop outs with a 80,000 dollar a year desk job. Cause washing dishes, cutting grass/ landscape, drywalling, brick laying, laboring is just really down grading there current position in welfare ](*,)


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## Laney Rein (Feb 9, 2011)

Connie Sutherland said:


> This doesn't seem a tad like blanket racism to you?


Sorry Connie but out here you can't help but be.

My husband works construction as a super so runs the subs. It's really hard when you know who is taking stuff off job sites, or even worse using the prospective homes as toilets ie closets, bathtubs and showers and non-working toilets, instead of using the samplers provided.

But this is off topic. Sorry if I offend anyone as just my view of here in AZ and a subculture. Had much different opinion when in NM and CO.

Also, Nancy and Sandra I am quite aware their ate those with true health issues, so please excuse any comment I made to lumpy everyone into a category.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Didn't seem to sink in.
From ALL the mods!
Thread locked!


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