# PPD specific breeders?



## jorge herrera

Does anyone know of a Malinois breeder that specialize in breeding Malinois for protection training. My searches on the web and the classifieds on this site often lead me to various breeders but the focus always seems to be on the sports aspect. I see many litters with very impressive pedigrees along with the titles but that does not necessarily mean the dog will excel in personal protection. I'm currently in the market for a female Mali to compliment my male Mali, but I want her to have a civil edge to her and solid nerves. Please advise.

Jorge


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## Jerry Lyda

I'm not a Mal breeder but this is my opinion. When a high drive pup is born he don't know the difference between sport or PP. He can be used in either. It's all in the training. This doesn't comply to just Mals, it's all breeds that are high drive even mixed breeds.

Find you an honest breeder and they are on this forum. Talk with them and get the pup you want.


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## Kadi Thingvall

I agree with Jerry, the right pup can go either direction, it's the owner's decision which direction to take it. That doesn't mean all pups can do sport and PPD, some are better cut out for one then the other, but the right pup can do either. 

My dogs are sport dogs because that's what I want/need them to be. People with relatives use their dogs as PPDs, because that's what they want and need. One of my dogs was a K9 in France, and is now a sport dog for me. I've raised dogs for sport, who later went on to become PSDs and PPDs.

Have you contacted Ivan about a pup? He's there in Florida, and according to his website is selling a lot of dogs now for PPD purposes.


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## Guest

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I agree with Jerry, the right pup can go either direction, it's the owner's decision which direction to take it. That doesn't mean all pups can do sport and PPD, some are better cut out for one then the other, but the right pup can do either.
> 
> My dogs are sport dogs because that's what I want/need them to be. People with relatives use their dogs as PPDs, because that's what they want and need. One of my dogs was a K9 in France, and is now a sport dog for me. I've raised dogs for sport, who later went on to become PSDs and PPDs.
> 
> Have you contacted Ivan about a pup? He's there in Florida, and according to his website is selling a lot of dogs now for PPD purposes.


 
You better cut off an arm or a leg if buying from Ivan.....


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## Gillian Schuler

Thank you for giving out a bit of down to earth "advice". It's becoming increasingly rare on here!

I start off with a breeder I can trust. I especially want a healthy specimen and so I look at what his dogs are physically capable of and who has previously bought dogs from him. What I make out of him, whatever breed, is down to me - I don't need a top notch dog from top notch trainers. I just need a healthy, sound pup. 

I agree, there are breeders on here that make a very good impression.

I only showed German GSDs when Howard Gaines asked about lines but he doesn't seem to have noticed it, although a dog that comes through Helmut Raiser's decoying is probably not too bad :-s

The number of dogs imported from Germany with good lines - where have they gone to? OT, I know but am curious.

Maybe some of the Malinois breeders on here will respond!!! Would be good.


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## Shane Woodlief

Jody Butler said:


> You better cut off an arm or a leg if buying from Ivan.....


aaahhaa I have heard the same.

I would try talking with Mike Suttle at Logan Haus Kennels. He might have something for you.


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## Harry Keely

For Ivan's prices for pups or even adults, you can do alot better a dog and put cash in your pocket. Defently try talking with Mike first. To me Mike's dogs are harder, more real and more proven in my opinion.


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## Greg Whelehan

Harry Keely said:


> For Ivan's prices for pups or even adults, you can do alot better a dog and put cash in your pocket. Defently try talking with Mike first. To me Mike's dogs are harder, more real and more proven in my opinion.


Harry where have you been???? Haven't seen post from you in a long while......

I'd have to agree 100% with Jody.. I think Ivan is selling his personal dog for $30,000, he's trained him in PP.


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## Kadi Thingvall

I suggested Ivan because the OP asked about breeders breeding specifically for PPD, which Ivan's site indicates he now does. And he's in FL, where the OP is. I realize his dogs are expensive, but based on the site he does have some "cheaper" (less then 30,000) dogs. Actually Rock, the dog mentioned, is another example of a dog that was a sport dog, and is now being cross trained for PPD. The site is a little confusing, but I also believe the dogs are package deals, it's not just 4,000 for a dog, the training comes with it. But that is up to the OP to figure out. If nothing else he can take a trip to check out a few dogs. Heck I'm a breeder myself, and my dogs are a lot less expensive, but I don't focus on PPD, and I'm not in the OPs area. Not that someone can't buy from a breeder out of their area, but it does make a trip to see the dogs easier.


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## Diana Abel

I also agree, give Mike Suttle @ Logan Haus a call. He will be very honest about the dogs and get you what you need. I'm very happy with the dog I bought from him and would def. buy from him again. I'm sure he's quite sick of hearing about how happy I am with my dog. lol


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## Jeff Oehlsen

You guys forgot master vondermuff.


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## Guest

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> You guys forgot master vondermuff.


 
DANG! Your right, I would go to him, he seems to know what he is talking about!


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## Diana Abel

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> You guys forgot master vondermuff.


Oh Lord no! lol Does his kennel name translate in German "From the MUFF?"  :lol:


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuxOF66Qn_A

Look at the great video of the MASTER ! ! ! ! LOL


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## Maren Bell Jones

jorge herrera said:


> Does anyone know of a Malinois breeder that specialize in breeding Malinois for protection training. My searches on the web and the classifieds on this site often lead me to various breeders but the focus always seems to be on the sports aspect. I see many litters with very impressive pedigrees along with the titles but that does not necessarily mean the dog will excel in personal protection. I'm currently in the market for a female Mali to compliment my male Mali, but I want her to have a civil edge to her and solid nerves. Please advise.
> 
> Jorge


Jorge, I'm not trying to start an argument, I am honestly curious...so sport dogs are tested for breeding purposes by trialing, right? So unless they have had a live bite, how do you test a dog purely trained in PPD for breeding purposes?


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## Harry Keely

Greg Whelehan said:


> Harry where have you been???? Haven't seen post from you in a long while......
> 
> I'd have to agree 100% with Jody.. I think Ivan is selling his personal dog for $30,000, he's trained him in PP.


Hasn't been that long has it Greg I posted Ithink at the end of June and its only early to mid July fella. Been on vacation for about 2 weeks up in NY & NJ fishing and what not with family, everybody deserves a little R&R fella don't you think.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

I don't believe a dog needs to get a live bite to be 'certified' as a personal protection dog. Civil agitation, hidden sleeves , muzzle work etc with a good breeder/trainer will determine if a dog is suitable for PP work. Police dogs don't get live bites until they hit the streets and those that are properly trained with these methods do not fail so why do you need a live bite?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

What is with the bullshit name ?


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## Adam Rawlings

Google his name and follow the bouncing ball...... you will get a good laugh.](*,)


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## Hoyt Yang

Back on topic, I second Mike Suttle as well from personal experience. I respect Ivan as a trainer, but I must say that I was not impressed with multiple dogs I received from him. I agree with Kadi that since the OP is in FL, it can't hurt to check out what Ivan has. Nothing like seeing a dog first hand.

Vondermuff is obviously the butt end of every joke- but believe it or not, there is a DS from him that turned out excellent with the right training.


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## Margaret Wheeler

So... what would someone who is breeding for personal protection (as opposed to sport) breed for?Going along with Jerry Lyda's reply... isn't that what ringsports are, the means by which the best protection dogs can be selected for breeding with the general breeding goal being police and military and personal protection dogs?

Breeding "for" protection = a handy way to get another search word on your website?


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## Guest

It's either training or MARKETING!!


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## David Ruby

Margaret Wheeler said:


> So... what would someone who is breeding for personal protection (as opposed to sport) breed for?Going along with Jerry Lyda's reply... isn't that what ringsports are, the means by which the best protection dogs can be selected for breeding with the general breeding goal being police and military and personal protection dogs?
> 
> Breeding "for" protection = a handy way to get another search word on your website?


Margaret, can I argue hypothetically? If not ignore this.

If so . . . Not necessarily. Personal protection is going to be different than the Ringsports (yet similar), like Schutzhund is different (yet similar) to French Ring and like French Ring is similar yet different to Mondio or Belgian Ring or KNPV or a patrol Police dog or a cell-extraction dog. Is there some crossover? Obviously. Are there some that do great in one but don't translate to another? Apparently.

Where that line is, beats me. I'd imagine for most, a serious sport dog would cross over great do a PPD, either a designated personal protection dog, or a dog that did Ring but would act great in a real life scenario. I'd also bet a lot of money (if I had it :-\") that there are a lot of charlatans out there breeding crappy dogs as "personal protection dogs."

Speaking in non-hypothetical terms, I have seen a lot of sport dogs that I would not mess with and I'm convinced would take out a bad guy if they were stupid enough to attack the handler, and some dogs trained as PPDs that I think were very good dogs and could probably do sport (and had relative dogs that have done some level of sport) but largely are just trained for the protection part and solid basic OB, but not the sport-specific exercises. So I think there is crossover. However, I would imagine there are dogs that would do great in sport but might not do well as PPDs for one reason or another (or as PSDs or security dogs or whatnot). I also think with a good dog, it's probably (to paraphrase Jody) either a matter of training differently or just marketing. I'm sure as heck not attacking Michael Ellis with one of his "sport dogs" around unless I want to lose about 5-10 lbs. of leg muscle a/o blood.

I will add the usual caveat that I'm not an expert or authority, so take it with a grain of salt. I WOULD think a good Ring dog (or SchH or whatever) that was trained as such would do fine as a "Protection Dog" and they are just dogs, not magical creatures of myth or anything. But again, if there is some expert on this stuff, it is not me.

-Cheers


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## Margaret Wheeler

David,

I think we all know I'm the noobiest noob going, so you not only can argue with me but should feel obligated too.

To me it seems likely lower tier, middle tier sport dogs might not be something that one could use for real deal protection and security (especially those bred here in the US), but the top tier foreign dogs? 

It just came to me that one might want to breed a little bt bigger dog or one that radiated a more frightening presence, just for retarded bad guys who don't get bite mechanics.

I've been lucky enough to watch some intense malanois lately: hard biting, hard hitting, snaky, fast and suffering no bullshit. "Sport dogs" to a one. One in particular, genial fella in general and even though I'm not supposed to care, super typy appearance and a beast at work .=P~
His only downside: Soooooo many thousands of $$$$$$$$$$$ :-(


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## Jerry Lyda

My opinion - A breeder is one that breeds to get pups and to sell these pups. These pups don't know if they are for sport or PP. The sport dogs and the PP dogs come from the same breeders. I believe that any high drive dog is a good candidate for either. The training makes the difference.


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## David Ruby

Margaret Wheeler said:


> David,
> 
> I think we all know I'm the noobiest noob going, so you not only can argue with me but should feel obligated too.
> 
> Maybe lower tier, middle tier sport dogs might not be something that one could use for real deal protection and security (especially those bred here in the US), but the top tier dogs?


I think different people mean different things when they say they want a "personal protection dog." Do they want a dog that will act protective, a/o bite with conviction if somebody attacks them on a jog or something a/o breaks into their house? I suspect that's what the average Joe envisions. That takes a lot less endurance, drive, and something different than a level III dog competing at Nationals/World level or something. That is, I think, where these debates sort of go to pieces. People claiming sport dogs aren't "real enough" (which is, I think, largely bull), or that they are just different (which may have merit), that and at least some sport dogs would not be great fits for a take-everywhere dog that would act appropriate in the off-chance somebody tried to mug/abduct/attack/etc. you a/o family. Also, how many people wanting a PPD could handle a top-tier dog, and at that point what are you going to do the 99.9% of the time you're not getting attacked to funnel that drive? Either sport (which I suspect is what most end up doing because, really, why not?), or if you have a legit and creative PPD-orientated trainer/decoy, doing real-life based scenarios and all kinds of crazy training exercises (which arguably you could presumably do with a sport-type dog, no?).

Of course, you can research the accomplishments of a sport dog and see its parents got such-and-such awards, or even if your dog comes from working parents. It's not like there is some well-established criteria for a Personal Protection Dog. But it makes for forum chatter, no?



> It just came to me that one might want to breed a little bt bigger dog or one that radiated a more frightening presence, just for retarded bad guys who don't get bite mechanics.


Yeah, but you could rescue a black Pit Bull or a Presa for that. Either would make a great bluff dog. Black a/o "Pit Bull-type/looking" or Dobermann-looking dogs are going to make great visual deterrents.



> I've been lucky enough to watch some intense malanois lately: hard biting, hard hitting, snaky, fast and suffering no bullshit. "Sport dogs" to a one. One in particular, genial fella in general and even though I'm not supposed to care, super typy appearance and a beast at work .=P~
> His only downside: Soooooo many thousands of $$$$$$$$$$$ :-(


Personally, there are serious "sport dogs" that I think would stop all but the most determined of criminals. I can also see (well, heard discussed) scenarios where you'd train differently for PP work, like if you were knocked unconscious or something or certain scenarios where you wouldn't necessarily wait for a guy to tap you before the dog got them or something like that. Still, in the case of the OP, maybe that's something their trainer could advise. Even in sport or individual PDs, different people probably look for different things. Still, I am not a criminal and I've never had to fight off a working Malinois, but I think a good dog "sport" line or otherwise could stop most criminals and if trained for it. I'm just allowing that somebody who knew what they were doing that was selecting for a PPD or security dog (or one of a million hypothetical jobs/scenarios/whatever) might look for at least slightly different traits or specific things in a dog that just getting any old Ring Sport dog might not _quite_ cut it.

Not so much arguing or proclaiming this as some absolute, just that I could see somebody going with maybe not PPD-specific breeders or anything but for a certain type of dog or looking for certain traits or something. But again, this is all just chatter, so Ivan B. comes here and disagrees with me, listen to him. 

-Cheers


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## Margaret Wheeler

Well, part of the reason I replied to this thread is because I was looking to raise a personal protection dog when I got Fiete (who is 15 months now). Here in NH we have had two home invasion/thrill killings recently and we just did major construction on our home (iow we have had every rent- a- bubba in southern NH on our property over the last two years). 

For me, with this well-bred young dog, it seems that it's a lot more straightforward to develop protection. I definitely don't see anything that suggests protection is "harder" than sport. Actually it seems to be the contrary. With minimal training this dog is an easy going guy with our kids and their friends. He is aloof with visiting adults.At home he barks at strangers and runs toward them confidently. When we go places he walks with me willingly and ignores other dogs and people who ignore us.

At training he is starting to bark at the decoy on command. he attacks the suit with a stick on him (comes off the bit occasionally though) and when the gun is fired. I'll be really surprised if he won't be a fairly reliable protection dog in a year, at least in as much as he will protect us and our home in a controlled orderly fashion.

So yeah he might not be cut out for living in a largish mnilitary, police or security force kennel but he surely will be an excellent protection dog for a suburban family.

On the other hand, I'm not sure how far he'll be able to cut it in ring sports. He's not super confident and he only likes to fight with the decoy and do things that I ask him to do. Otoh He could care less about toys and food, so I'm kinda wondering how I'm going to get him to do the obedience stuff like jumping. Guess I'll just pray and trust in my awesome trainer and the dog's awesome breeder.

So yeah, in all this rambling I'm just trying to say that if you breed and train a sane high drive dog like the one I have here it shoiuld be able to do either protection or sport so long as (as Jerry points out) the dog is raised and trained properly.


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## Matt Grosch

arent many of the "personal protection" breeds and trainers just crap that have nothing to stand on other than silly claims?


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## jorge herrera

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Jorge, I'm not trying to start an argument, I am honestly curious...so sport dogs are tested for breeding purposes by trialing, right? So unless they have had a live bite, how do you test a dog purely trained in PPD for breeding purposes?


Maren, I agree a live bite is the ultimate test of a PPD and obviously not practical so we get as close to it as possible with a muzzle. What I'm referring to is that not all sports are the same and some dogs may tend to excel in one sport over another and in my opinion PPD don't require the high level of control as maybe an FRS dog, but will require a civil edge and a bit more on the defensive side. So, my question is simply are there dog breeders that specialize in breeding Mali more suited for PPD. Maybe a breeder that breeds from a line that has many police dogs or PPD. I understand there are many excellent sports dogs that can do Personal protection, and I'm just trying to start at the right place.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Maybe pick a breed first.


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## Jerry Lyda

It's still training. If the dog has the drive he will excell in any sport or ppd or psd. It's up to us to take him where we want him to go. If he has the drive and sees it as fun, he will do well.

I require more ob in a ppd, or at least as much.


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## jorge herrera

Margaret Wheeler said:


> So... what would someone who is breeding for personal protection (as opposed to sport) breed for?Going along with Jerry Lyda's reply... isn't that what ringsports are, the means by which the best protection dogs can be selected for breeding with the general breeding goal being police and military and personal protection dogs?
> 
> Breeding "for" protection = a handy way to get another search word on your website?


Wow! this sort of took on a life of it's own. It sounds like I might have inadvertently implied that sports dogs are not good enough to do Personal Protection work, this couldn't be farther from the truth and I apologize for the mis-communication. Personally, I feel sports is far more demanding then personal protection because the obedience required (example: my PPD needs to walk by my side and sit but he doesn't have to do it perfectly and immediately) climbing: he needs to get over a wall, but not necessarily a 7.5 foot tall wall and tracking is not a requirement for my PPD. My PPD would not require nearly as much training as getting a sports dog ready for titling. I'm by far no expert trainer but I've seen some amazing sports dogs that are social and I personally like my PPD to have a natural suspicion of strangers and to some extent one could train some things into any dog but in my opinion it would be far easier to start with a puppy from a sire and dam that were successful police dogs or PPD's. On the flip side I've seen some man stoppers that would never make it in sports. Neither scenario implies the dog is inferior, it's simply genetic characteristics. I appreciate everyone's feedback and especially the feedback on specific breeders.


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## Shane Woodlief

Margaret Wheeler said:


> Well, part of the reason I replied to this thread is because I was looking to raise a personal protection dog when I got Fiete (who is 15 months now). Here in NH we have had two home invasion/thrill killings recently and we just did major construction on our home (iow we have had every rent- a- bubba in southern NH on our property over the last two years).
> 
> For me, with this well-bred young dog, it seems that it's a lot more straightforward to develop protection. I definitely don't see anything that suggests protection is "harder" than sport. Actually it seems to be the contrary. With minimal training this dog is an easy going guy with our kids and their friends. He is aloof with visiting adults.At home he barks at strangers and runs toward them confidently. When we go places he walks with me willingly and ignores other dogs and people who ignore us.
> 
> At training he is starting to bark at the decoy on command. he attacks the suit with a stick on him (comes off the bit occasionally though) and when the gun is fired. I'll be really surprised if he won't be a fairly reliable protection dog in a year, at least in as much as he will protect us and our home in a controlled orderly fashion
> 
> So yeah he might not be cut out for living in a largish mnilitary, police or security force kennel but he surely will be an excellent protection dog for a suburban family.
> 
> On the other hand, I'm not sure how far he'll be able to cut it in ring sports. He's not super confident and he only likes to fight with the decoy and do things that I ask him to do. Otoh He could care less about toys and food, so I'm kinda wondering how I'm going to get him to do the obedience stuff like jumping. Guess I'll just pray and trust in my awesome trainer and the dog's awesome breeder.
> 
> So yeah, in all this rambling I'm just trying to say that if you breed and train a sane high drive dog like the one I have here it shoiuld be able to do either protection or sport so long as (as Jerry points out) the dog is raised and trained properly.


Your reply to this post brought up a couple of questions for me.

1. When you say he is not super confident can you explain that a little? Wouldn't confidence be a must for a PPD/sport/working dog?

3. How old is your dog?

2. You said trust in your awesome trainer are - Are you not training him yourself? 

I am not picking a fight here - just wanted to get a better understanding of where you are coming from and what you are trying to say. I may not understand your terminology. I can be slow on the uptake sometimes


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## Megan Berry

David Ruby said:


> I think different people mean different things when they say they want a "personal protection dog." Do they want a dog that will act protective, a/o bite with conviction if somebody attacks them on a jog or something a/o breaks into their house? I suspect that's what the average Joe envisions. That takes a lot less endurance, drive, and something different than a level III dog competing at Nationals/World level or something. That is, I think, where these debates sort of go to pieces. People claiming sport dogs aren't "real enough" (which is, I think, largely bull), or that they are just different (which may have merit), that and at least some sport dogs would not be great fits for a take-everywhere dog that would act appropriate in the off-chance somebody tried to mug/abduct/attack/etc. you a/o family. Also, how many people wanting a PPD could handle a top-tier dog, and at that point what are you going to do the 99.9% of the time you're not getting attacked to funnel that drive? Either sport (which I suspect is what most end up doing because, really, why not?)
> 
> I completely agree! I want a PPD, (titles not being thaf important to me) but my attitude towards sport is that it only makes sense. How else can I regularly 'test' the reliability of a dog's training? Sure, I plan on using a hidden sleeve and doing muzzle work, along with civil sinerios. But why WOULDN'T i do sport as well? Not only would it keep the skills fine-tuned, but it will give the dog an outlet other than eating the furniture!
> 
> By all means, correct me if I'm wrong! But from my newbie point of view, its logical!


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