# double stud breeding



## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Has anyone ever done this or know of any personally? Any info that can be shared?

Thanks,
t


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I did a dual sired litter about 2 years ago, any specific questions you had or ??


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

yes... for now...

litter size?
percentage from each?
natural ties?

thanks
t


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## Alison Grubb (Nov 18, 2009)

I know a few people who have done this.
One of the guys waited too many days in between and when he went back to do the DNA testing all the puppies were off of the first stud used.

If you want, I can give your number to my buddy and have him call you??


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## Ricardo Ashton (Jun 3, 2010)

Just out of curiosity,are you considering a dual sire breeding? And if you are ,why?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

A Canine three way just seems SO perverted ;-)


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

tracey delin said:


> yes... for now...
> litter size?


7



tracey delin said:


> percentage from each?


3 from one male and 4 from the other



tracey delin said:


> natural ties?


It's been 2 years, but from what I remember the first breeding was just to 1 male, the other male wasn't really interested yet. 

The next day I bred the female to the second male (one who hadn't bred her yet) and then about 15 minutes after their tie was finished, bred her to the first male.

Skipped a day, then bred her to the first male, 15 minutes or so after the tie bred her to the second male.

I think that was the end of the breedings. If we did one more breeding, then I would have reversed the order again. Basically I gave each male as equal of a chance as possible to fertilize the eggs, IMO that is probably why I got as close to a 50/50 split as I possibly could.

I have the DNA results for the litter and the parents online at http://www.dantero.com/qr.php if you want to see how parentage was determined for each pup.


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Alison send me a pm on what you know so far....

Yes I am considering it and not for the first time. Considered it for an older female I had with at most one litter left in her.... turned out not to be the case. In this case I have a one time breeding right to a female I really like. Our group/ family is small, I dont breed a lot.... ie 13 puppies in 15 years., so this allows me more variety in less litters. I think the big reasons are pretty much age of dam or less litters more options. in my case with only one shot I really can't make that choice. I like both combos lot. depending on what you like in a dog one males strengths are the others weaknesses although both very comparable and very nice they each have a lot to offer and I like the thought of both alot.

kadi, that was awesome... thank you for sharing, very helpful. so do you feel you got what you were looking for from each sire? what was the breakdown on how they turned out for each stud? would you do it again?

t


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

tracey delin said:


> kadi, that was awesome... thank you for sharing, very helpful. so do you feel you got what you were looking for from each sire? what was the breakdown on how they turned out for each stud? would you do it again?


1 pup died in an accident, so I ended up with 3/3 for the sires. Pups turned out pretty much as I would expect from each sire. What surprised me was that it was a lot harder to tell the pups apart regarding who was sired by who. Pups I would have sworn were from one male (looked just like the dog did as a pup or pups from the males other litters, very similar personality, etc) ended up being sired by the other male, and vice versa. Not in every case, but about 50/50.

I would definitely do it again, in the right situation. It was more expensive with all the DNA testing and extra registration fees, but I think it was worth it. Especially in a situation like you are describing, where you can only use the female once, but really would like to breed her to 2 studs. Its something I'd consider for a competition dog also, since most of the time I'm trialing with a female. Basically 2 litters for the "price" of one, in terms of down time from training/trialing. Assuming you do get pups from each stud dog, but that's a risk you take.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Hi Kadi,
Does using two studs increase the percentage of strong working dogs in the litter since half of the litter is from one stud and each stud ideally should sire at least 2 police k9 prospects, does using two automatically double that to four?


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## Adi Ibrahimbegovic (Nov 21, 2008)

wow, doggie porn! Manage trois K9 way! hahahah



tracey delin said:


> Has anyone ever done this or know of any personally? Any info that can be shared?
> 
> Thanks,
> t


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## Ricardo Ashton (Jun 3, 2010)

So you have used either stud once with the dam previously? The reason I ask is because you said you like both combos. I personally never did like the dual sire idea because breeding is a crap shoot with one stud to a dam, especially if either is unproven , but IMO two sires is russian roulette. You never really know for sure what you might get. If litter size and pup quality is the issue, I personally would search for a proven stud then arrange to keep the stud at my kennel for about 3 days to facilitate a breeding once a day. But thats just me and to each their own.


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## Adi Ibrahimbegovic (Nov 21, 2008)

also, it just occured to me, how does the pedigree and registration works on this case? Which father do you pick to put on the pedigree?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Adi Ibrahimbegovic said:


> also, it just occured to me, how does the pedigree and registration works on this case? Which father do you pick to put on the pedigree?


I know a Mal litter that was dual sired. 
You DNA test all the pups. And register them accordingly. Only one stud was used for AKC papers the other got UKC.
Not sure how it works with each registry as far as being able to register both sires for that litter...

I think I would consider it, if I was keeping most of the pups, and looking to keep brood bitches..


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## Ricardo Ashton (Jun 3, 2010)

DNA analysis is the only way to tell which stud sired which pup. Don't some registries require that both parents be in their database to register any offspring?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Ricardo Ashton said:


> DNA analysis is the only way to tell which stud sired which pup. Don't some registries require that both parents be in their database to register any offspring?


yes, both parents can be registered in multiple registries as well...


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Adi Ibrahimbegovic said:


> also, it just occured to me, how does the pedigree and registration works on this case? Which father do you pick to put on the pedigree?


You have to DNA all the pups to figure out who sired what. And then AKC registers them as if they were 2 different litters, just born on the same day. Unless all the pups are from just 1 male, then the litter would be registered just like any other litter.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> Hi Kadi,
> Does using two studs increase the percentage of strong working dogs in the litter since half of the litter is from one stud and each stud ideally should sire at least 2 police k9 prospects, does using two automatically double that to four?


I tihnk it would be more accurate to look at the litter as 2 separate litters, just with smaller numbers. IE a litter of 3 and a litter of 4. And I'd expect the same percentage of strong working dogs from each "litter" as I would if I'd had a litter of 8, 10, whatever from the dam and individual sire.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I tihnk it would be more accurate to look at the litter as 2 separate litters, just with smaller numbers. IE a litter of 3 and a litter of 4. And I'd expect the same percentage of strong working dogs from each "litter" as I would if I'd had a litter of 8, 10, whatever from the dam and individual sire.


yes 2 litters, same female 2 different studs...I can see the benefits if desired, and done on purpose


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Ricardo Ashton said:


> So you have used either stud once with the dam previously? The reason I ask is because you said you like both combos. I personally never did like the dual sire idea because breeding is a crap shoot with one stud to a dam, especially if either is unproven , but IMO two sires is russian roulette. You never really know for sure what you might get. If litter size and pup quality is the issue, I personally would search for a proven stud then arrange to keep the stud at my kennel for about 3 days to facilitate a breeding once a day. But thats just me and to each their own.


No this is her and my one and only breeding of her. To do any breeding you have to like the combo or why do it? Not sure what a repeat breeding has to do with liking the way dogs match up in looks, temperament, pedigree, all around? Although breeding is always a guess it sure helps when you know your lines and utilize a line breeding program.... Check! Cuts down on the guesses and unknowns. Nope, litter size and quality are not the issue, don't care about the quantity more than the quality. Quality is not a huge concern, I've been messing with this family and genetic pool for 15+ years. Although always room for improvement, I have the quality honed in pretty good. Which is why my kennel name will often POP up as a recommendation for working bulldogs with so few puppies put on the ground. What makes you think I'm not using a valuable stud? Assuming much, but regardless a proven stud that doesn't match up is more useless imo than a great dog with prepotent genetics that i know thoroughly and matches up very well. I feel like your linking a double stud breeding to a less quality breeding, I couldn't disagree more. but like you said, to each their own.

T


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Oh and kadi thanks again for all the info you've shared here..


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## Ricardo Ashton (Jun 3, 2010)

No Tracey I was not saying that eithe dog was of little or no value. Nor did I say a dual sired litter would be inferior in any way. By unproven I mean an animal that has not been proven to reproduce its genetics in its offspring. There are dogs whose genetics are so f***ed up that they cant pass them forward with any type of predictablity, traits such as temperament,disposition,biddability,head and body size & structure, intelligence, even color. Again, I'm not saying this is your case or your practice, but this is an actual fact.


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Understand and agree and definitely not my case.... our dogs have a stamp and this breeding will only concentrate that with either male


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## Jason Luczyszyn (Jul 21, 2010)

And that breeding would be between.......drumroll............


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Sorry Jason... missed your post. 

My two boys, surprise!!  to Issa.... only videos I have of her are at 6-12 months, but she is a speed ball firecracker...but none of that nervous energy... I like her alot. She was my pick from her litter and she was one of those "special" puppies. Just waiting on the confirmed OFA but expecting good news. So this is the THOUGHT of the day.... no final decisions yet.

Should match up well with both boys as well as work well for future tie ins. I think maybe we talked about this breeding?

http://youtu.be/-yGXteX3KKg

http://youtu.be/vxJG5rrA1kY

t


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