# pics, kelpies, stuff



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

hi the pics in the latest gallery are a bunch of REAL Kelpies, thats WKC as oppossed fake cartoon ANKC versions. none of the varied coat colours you see in the pic would be registerable. how weird is that. dogs that do their job and have traceable lines from the very first breeding pair are not even considered to be the breed, proven uselss dogs get to be called "The Breed" - the airheads have won.

oh yeah my girl on the timber truck is not a Kelpie.

how cool is this we got 3 truckloads of timber worth 10's of thousands of dollars for under 3k$ just because it was in the way of some road works.

hiring a portable saw mill, cut it, stack it for a year, kiln dry it and friend has ornate timber flooring throughout entire house and deck for almost nothing.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Awesome. When I was driving through Asheville last weekend I saw a virtual forest of cut trees on the side of the interstate and some folks out in pick up trucks sawing and harvesting.


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## Charlotte Grove (Apr 21, 2009)

I saw your pictures and could not figure out what kind of dogs they were. Very cool.


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## eric squires (Oct 16, 2008)

Nice bunch of dogs. I didn't know that there where Catahoulas down under One of my favorate breeds i have owned and worked.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I was just reading about that yesterday, stupid registration rules.

I noticed a "free puppy" bulletin that was a crossbred litter between australian kelpie and black mouthed cur. Being both "working" breeds, my curiousity prompted me to do some mild research.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

cheers we sawed up some planks, not a single knot in any of them - the timber is hard-wood mostly and some trees labelled as a noxious weed called camphor laurel (spelling?) the camphor wood although a banned weed in these parts is very nice timber it has extra properties as well eg a guy committed suicide in town here years ago, he was a missing person then someone found his preserved body hanging in a camphor laurel tree right near the main street. aint no myth either. 

none of that timber is crappy plantation wood - all old growth trees. big effort getting the trucks organised ahead of the dozer n had to pull them from near vertical terrain. without interrupting traffic flow. after doing the entire floors there will be enough to panel the kitchen walls and the off cuts will go into making a hard-wood mega-kennel for the kelpies. the costs of milling, trucks etc will be paid for by the surlpus timber.

as far as the kelpie standard most of us think that is just fine, puts the AKC/ANKC dogs in there own class thats easy to identify - they can dwell in their own pool of inferiority.

the WKC dogs are all 100% garaunteed to work world-wide - dog doesn't work money back or replacement no questions asked. does any other breed registry in the world do that?? - GSD, KNPV??

i see kelpies now turning up in snow countries / northern europe, herding reindeer to good effect. 

unfortunately the lighter/cream/fawn colored ones are often avoided for breeding as they can easy be mistaken as a dingo and get shot while working. 

possible argument is they may have better heat tolerance due to light colour?? not much help if they get shot though hey.

Eric what work did u do with yr hula - that girl in the pic is possibly the smartest dog i ever owned which makes training that much harder - i think highly trainable dogs are less intelligent in some aspects?? how did u find dog aggresion n resource guarding my idiot started off not but due to some "situations" out of my control she is becoming a problem with it. she has taken my new GSD pup on as its own like its a new toy and displays people aggression around it.

i want to start a thread on resource guarding as i am not exactly sure what it is n if its genetic or something i screwed up in raising her.


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## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

very handsome dogs 

nice looking logs, too!


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

can i edit a thread title - "dogs, logs n stuff"


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## eric squires (Oct 16, 2008)

Peter i worked my first Catahoula on cattle. One of the best cattle dogs i have been around. He could be a little tough on them until they got dog broke. Neither of the two Catahoulas that i have had were dog aggressive or stupid possesive of things. The first one was a hell of a all around guard dog. He would bite if it was needed. Hell on cats and ground hogs. Both dogs were extremely athletic and could climb or jump a little too well at times. I want to get another one sometime later and do a little protection training to see how the drives transfer to protection work.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

hi Eric, my hula X is a kamakze on sheep - much better on cattle. their athletic style/ability is unique. i am getting an enclosed kennel to keep her in and a a 6+ foot house fence. from what i've seen i will only need a standard house fence to contain the GSD. what the curr can't jump she will try climb.

as far as protection i think the prob will be getting them to think precise obedience is a fun thing eg sch. no doubt they would bite but i think it would come from defence more than fight. prey for a sleeve might be a prob, my girl gets pretty bored after it finds out the thing doesn't bleed. 

prey drive for live game is something else. not even sure the word prey drive is appropriatte when comparing a rag to live game - but lets not get into a discussion on terminology and drive definitions .

unfortunately i can't say that the style of a curr on cattle would suit most modern operations, sure they will find and contain n maybe drive but that is about it as far as instinct. i do get to to see some pretty good stock dogs though as in the pics, no breed in general will have that much stock sense as those kelpies in the pic, sorry BC people.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

My stepdad is a retired cowhand, now saddlemaker, and the Catahoula is what he had working on a big ranch in Ennis MT about thirty years ago. Said it was the best dog he ever had, but I can't add much more than that. There aren't many big operations like that nowdays.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

between barb-wire, electric fences, motor bikes, cattle trucks, helicopters and the break up of large land holdings, yes there is not that much use in most of the world for many old breeds - hence we invent sport and focus on fizzy unstable, unsound dogs , ah, its a living.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> the WKC dogs are all 100% garaunteed to work world-wide - dog doesn't work money back or replacement no questions asked. does any other breed registry in the world do that?? - GSD, KNPV??


This is interesting, who does the refunding? The registry or the breeder? And how does the registry enforce it if it's the breeder that gives the refund?


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## Denise Gatlin (Dec 28, 2009)

The Catahoula Curr is actually the Louisiana State Dog. They are abundant here, used mostly for hog hunting. They also make a serious watch dog for rural property. A healthy breed. I have a Curr/Rott X that is awesome.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> This is interesting, who does the refunding? The registry or the breeder? And how does the registry enforce it if it's the breeder that gives the refund?


simple the breeder would be booted out of the WKC, the garuntee as i understand is in the WKC name not the breeders - the reputaion of a said breeder would be down the drain in working circles if that happened. you could research the legalistics to get the contract by contacting the WKC. being a non-member would be commercial suicide for a working breeder of kelpies.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> being a non-member would be commercial suicide for a working breeder of kelpies.


why??? just curious...

if someone is looking for a working kelpie, why would they need any papers at all? is paperwork required over there?


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

its not papers you get it is the endorsement and garuntee you get by purchasing from a group with accounatble standards, you can buy a dog from whoever you want, and in many cases with people that know each other this is what happens and it works - its a case of buyer beware strictly. with the garuntee its more a case of seller beware. many aren't a part of the WKC and sell good dogs, even more aren't a part and have puppy mills.

a good example is the US who imported kelpies in the early days from an organiastion other than the WKC - they got dogs that didn't work and weren't bred to. money wasted n the breed discredited. most imports ever since have been WKC dogs.

so to my question any other breed organisation have a legal contract that garuntees that the pups will work??


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> its not papers you get it is the endorsement and garuntee you get by purchasing from a group with accounatble standards, you can buy a dog from whoever you want, and in many cases with people that know each other this is what happens and it works - its a case of buyer beware strictly. with the garuntee its more a case of seller beware. many aren't a part of the WKC and sell good dogs, even more aren't a part and have puppy mills.
> 
> a good example is the US who imported kelpies in the early days from an organiastion other than the WKC - they got dogs that didn't work and weren't bred to. money wasted n the breed discredited. most imports ever since have been WKC dogs.
> 
> so to my question any other breed organisation have a legal contract that garuntees that the pups will work??


I doubt it...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I also am doubting that the guarantee is as black and white as you say it is..

When you read how it is worded, the NKC states that their "breeder's guarantee" applies to breeders that agree to advertise with them, and are listed in the breeder directory listings. 

It also states that the guarantees are offered by the breeders themselves, and that breeders are not required to guarantee the stock, but if they do not they must clearly state there is no guarantee. 

Also states that the person returning the dog basically has to provide proof that the dog was given "adequate training and opportunity to develop" it's working "instinct". 

That leaves quite a bit of "wiggle" room, for breeders that are not advertising and are not in the directory.

I do not doubt that the "core" breeders all guarantee the stock, but I do doubt the statement that the NKC requires all breeders to guarantee thier stock, and that the NKC will back up every dog sold...which is what your statements would lead someone to assume.

Since they clearly state the guarantee is from the breeder, and that the breeders can choose to put into writing that there is no guarantee, and that the buyer may have to meet conditions to get the guarantees honored. 

No where I could find that the NKC guarantees anything itself, or that there is any legal contract as you state, or that every dog sold with NKC papers is guaranteed to work...

it does state that breeders who advertise in the directory, agree to guarantee the dogs, unless they state plainly that they are not guaranteeing them...

will try to get more info....


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> simple the breeder would be booted out of the WKC, the garuntee as i understand is in the WKC name not the breeders - the reputaion of a said breeder would be down the drain in working circles if that happened. you could research the legalistics to get the contract by contacting the WKC. being a non-member would be commercial suicide for a working breeder of kelpies.


Peter, my understanding is that there are many WKC breeders but there are only a handful that are actually accredited to be listed in the breeder directory. I think you apply for and are assessed for accreditation and also have to have 2 nominations from within the WKC, you are then placed on the provisional list until you achieve full status. This entails allowing assessors onto you property to asses your kelpies in action. Then a WKC guarantee is in place.

The WKC has 2 registers - one for dogs with 4 or more generations of known breeding and one for less.

Kelpies are often bred to suit their local terrain and conditions so the WKC recommends finding an appropriate breeder that suits the requirements of the buyer and that the buyer gives feedback to the breeder to help with the breeder selection process.

There are no accredited listed breeders in my state but there are breeders that breed kelpies registerable with the WKC - I own a WKC registered kelpie from a non accredited breeder. Working kelpies can be registered on the working sheepdog association register as well and thats where many of my states kelpies get registered. They either have to be registered by birth or by assessment in the paddock by an accredited assessor. 

No one gets too hung up on the whole thing as most farmers know who the breeders are that will fill their requirements by reputation. We have some very good kelpie breeders who dont bother with the WKC accreditation as their pups get snapped up anyway. These breeders usually give a breeder guarantee.


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> hi the pics in the latest gallery are a bunch of REAL Kelpies


nice photos. Are those your Kelpies?


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

thanks Kellie, no not mine, in my area i have a number of good breeders that i am in contact with. just bought a GSD, want to try something different. working so long with pratical stock dogs it didn't seem like a hobby to pursue in old age. 

i do like keep to keep in touch with things as i consider them the most proven "super-breed" IMO.

i get to borrow dogs for herdig seminars which is cool. maybe when GSD is 2 years old i will get a Kelpie. kind of spoilt that i can just get one anytime really easy.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Joby "NKC" are u refering to WKC. to be honest you would have to contact the WKC itself for the details, i am not a lawyer, a breeder or a WKC member. no doubt there would be "wriggle room" in any contract and no system is perfect if you are a shithead you could no doubt screw the system is is not ratified by the united nations or anything.

whats on your mind are you seeing a way to scam the system for gain here?? - good luck with that.

fact is might be imperfect but can any other breed organisation on the planet anywhere, ever, at least match it. oh yeah the sch III title that does it. no wait best of breed ribbon that assures quality, hey wait even better a flashy web-site espousing the "full crushing grips" of their man stopping dogs -lot of them around all quality assured.

ha, what u got thats better Joby or even close ?????


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Joby "NKC" are u refering to WKC. to be honest you would have to contact the WKC itself for the details, i am not a lawyer, a breeder or a WKC member. no doubt there would be "wriggle room" in any contract and no system is perfect if you are a shithead you could no doubt screw the system is is not ratified by the united nations or anything.
> 
> whats on your mind are you seeing a way to scam the system for gain here?? - good luck with that.
> 
> ...


what ????

no..LOL...

I was just checking it out...the WKC...the one you stated has a 100% guarantee worldwide, no questions asked...Which I think was not correct...that is all I was saying...


There are very few registries in the USA that really require much of anything, some of the specialty ones have some requirements for breeding, none that I know of guarantee the breeder's puppies.

There are plenty of respectable breeders that breed other types of working dogs, that do offer workability guarantees. Others do not, but they still can be good breeders, almost all give a health guarantee of some sort....but they are hard to enforce if there is a discrepancy..

anyhow that is a good way to run a registry.. props to the WKC... Just not quite what you claimed from what I read.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

no doubt i have some details incorrect i just applaud them for even attempting it, would make a good model for others to follow n challenge breeders to raise their standards n limit the hype.

apologies if igot the details of the contract wrong - the idea generally is there


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