# Not Making the Grade



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

What areas do you look at when telling folks that their "protection dog" doesn't make the grade? I've had a few conversations with folks, many seem to think that just because it's of a certain breed that it will protect because the dogs LOVES THEM.

What points do you use to exclude them from your training program? :-k

For me, fear biters are first and foremost unacceptable for training. :?


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Howard Gaines III said:


> What areas do you look at when telling folks that their "protection dog" doesn't make the grade? I've had a few conversations with folks, many seem to think that just because it's of a certain breed that it will protect because the dogs LOVES THEM.
> 
> What points do you use to exclude them from your training program? :-k
> 
> For me, fear biters are first and foremost unacceptable for training. :?


Fear biters and dogs lacking drive... Can't stand dogs that require a decoy to act like a monkey.


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## David Baker (Aug 31, 2013)

I'm with tiago.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

dog has to stand up for itself..


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## Mike D'Abruzzo (Oct 6, 2009)

I do two main tests when evaluating the dogs for defensive training (of the handler):

1. Threaten the dog while the dog is back tied

2. Basically beat the crap out of the owner in front of the dog while the dog is back tied (requires good acting).

I may see what type of prey drive the dog has to work with, but depending on how the dog reacts to the two tests above I can get a good idea if its a sure thing, a waste of time, or possibility with the right training.

Looking at mainly if the dog goes into fight, defense, flight, or acts indifferent. I also take care to test the dog without "breaking" it. Regardless of how the dog does react, treat the test like a confidence building drill in the end. Also, abort the test quickly if the dog starts going into flight or slipping down the ladder from fight,defense,flight..


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Mike D'Abruzzo said:


> I do two main tests when evaluating the dogs for defensive training (of the handler):
> 
> 1. Threaten the dog while the dog is back tied
> 
> ...


what weights do you give to each trait? Like are they both equally important, or???

The dog protecting itself, as well as the dog attempting to protect its owner???


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I'm curious if there are dogs that are stronger in showing desire to protect their owners than themselves.

T


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I'm curious if there are dogs that are stronger in showing desire to protect their owners than themselves.
> 
> T


T 
I do similar tests, I always threaten owner first, with dog off to the side, so there is no misinterpreting from the dog, and no cues.

Then I threaten dog, and if dog is forward enough, I will let him bite.. 
this is for dogs that are mature enough of course.

I have seen dogs that are stronger in "showing desire" to protect their owners than themselves.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Joby Becker said:


> T
> *I do similar tests, I always threaten owner first, with dog off to the side, so there is no misinterpreting from the dog, and no cues.*
> 
> Then I threaten dog, and if dog is forward enough, I will let him bite..
> ...


Been doing this just recently as it goes with a couple of pups, was very interesting indeed to see their reactions. They both got bites


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## Mike D'Abruzzo (Oct 6, 2009)

I have found that protecting the owners is easier for the dog than protecting themselves. Mainly because they are rarely going to get a frontal presentation with a direct challenge to the dog. You would be surprised at how many back yard bred/puppy mill types have done well with this. SUSTAINING the fight when the agitator put pressure on the dog (as opposed to completely submitting to the bite) is a different story, but many are good enough to keep someone occupied enough that they cannot turn their back on the dog to go back at attacking the handler.

I have also worked with many dogs that seem to want no part of a real fight with the agitator even though they love the prey work, but turn into lions when you do a "beat down" drill on their handler and will not hesitate to come with muzzle/hidden suits/etc..

Some dogs that are good at protecting themselves seem to give a rats arse about there handler getting their butt whipped. This can sometimes be from too much desensitizing to aggressive behavior in bite work, not a good bond with the owner, or just a dog that has less of a "pack" mentality. Lots of reasons. Either way, these dogs can almost always be taught to protect the handler for their own selfish reasons, if they like the fight.

There is definitely a separate genetic trait linked to being protective that some people don't take advantage of in breeding programs (for personal protection). I have followed pups that seemed to be the type to always break up the fights and jump in to protect the other dogs in their "pack" as pups, that are monsters on the protect the handler drills. Some avoid direct challenges and very social otherwise.


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## Mike D'Abruzzo (Oct 6, 2009)

Halfway through this vid we do a protect a family member drill with a shepherd that is normally a very social dog:

http://youtu.be/4cW0vigD6EE

Here is also a drill we throw in for group "beat downs" we do. Dogs always bite hardest during this drill, even ones that would normally give us choppy bites:

http://youtu.be/-o9p5wmIUX4

And here is my favorite drill :twisted::

http://youtu.be/H4Zcgq592Jg

We train control separate from these drills, then put it all together.. while sometimes just going back to these adrenaline drills.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Mike D'Abruzzo said:


> I have found that protecting the owners is easier for the dog than protecting themselves. Mainly because they are rarely going to get a frontal presentation with a direct challenge to the dog. You would be surprised at how many back yard bred/puppy mill types have done well with this. SUSTAINING the fight when the agitator put pressure on the dog (as opposed to completely submitting to the bite) is a different story, but many are good enough to keep someone occupied enough that they cannot turn their back on the dog to go back at attacking the handler.
> 
> I have also worked with many dogs that seem to want no part of a real fight with the agitator even though they love the prey work, but turn into lions when you do a "beat down" drill on their handler and will not hesitate to come with muzzle/hidden suits/etc..
> 
> ...



Thanks Mike, I was just curious.
I personally do not put all that much weight on the dog having the instincts to protect its owner, when compared to willingness to protect itself... If a dog will confront at direct threat to itself, and has some courage and fight there, the rest is just bonding and training.

once a dog knows/learns that people can be a threat to him, he can also learn that people can be a threat to his stuff, his home, and his family.


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## Jim Leon (Jan 21, 2010)

Hey Mike that's nice decoying in the vids.
Very realistic. There was even real garbage in the dumpster!
Good work. I like your style and the scenarios you set up. 
I can imagine your dog business is successful. 
And if not yet, with that kind of work it will be soon enough.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Mike D'Abruzzo said:


> I have found that protecting the owners is easier for the dog than protecting themselves. Mainly because they are rarely going to get a frontal presentation with a direct challenge to the dog. You would be surprised at how many back yard bred/puppy mill types have done well with this. SUSTAINING the fight when the agitator put pressure on the dog (as opposed to completely submitting to the bite) is a different story, but many are good enough to keep someone occupied enough that they cannot turn their back on the dog to go back at attacking the handler.
> 
> I have also worked with many dogs that seem to want no part of a real fight with the agitator even though they love the prey work, but turn into lions when you do a "beat down" drill on their handler and will not hesitate to come with muzzle/hidden suits/etc..
> 
> ...


Thanks for the response. Very interesting.


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

Mike D'Abruzzo said:


> And here is my favorite drill :twisted::
> 
> http://youtu.be/H4Zcgq592Jg
> 
> .


That one had me dying! That's good stuff!


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## Catherine Gervin (Mar 12, 2012)

Mike D'Abruzzo said:


> Halfway through this vid we do a protect a family member drill with a shepherd that is normally a very social dog:
> 
> http://youtu.be/4cW0vigD6EE
> 
> ...


these were wonderful! my daughter really enjoyed seeing the dogs protecting their people, especially the shepherd "Coal" who fought off the bad guy and then went to check on his little boy right away


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