# Does protection work cause dentition or jaw problems???



## Jehane Michael Le Grange (Feb 24, 2009)

I sent the following e-mail, explaining my dillema, to a number of vets worldwide and am awaiting repsonses. Please read it and let me know what you think...

"Good day

First allow me to introduce myself. I am a Schutzhund
trainer with more than 5 years (and countless
dogs) experience in my field of training, namely protection
work. 

Our training regiment is very similar to the ones employed
overseas where we start the young puppies out by biting on
a piece of
leather, then progress to a bite tug, then a bite pillow
and finally the hard arm. Due to the rules of the sport, a
firm grip is required during all exercises where biting is
involved so during training we condition a full, hard and
calm bite by doing a bit of tugging or pulling on the bite
apparatus to ensure that the dog bites properly. over the
last 5 to 6 years of me being a helper I have done this
with all the dogs I have trained.

Recently we have discovered that one of the dogs (he is a
13 month old GSD male)is suffering from an overbite or
overshot jaw i.e. his top jaw is a bit longer than his
bottom jaw. In this case I would estimate the gap to be
about 4-5 mm between the top and bottom row of front teeth.
I could also see that the teeth themselves are still
straight and are in no way damaged. this dog also has an
extremely hard and full bite on the hard arm. In my opinion
and I must add I have very limited experience with
veterinary matters especially concerning dentition, this is
a genetic fault the dog has and has had it from birth.

The breeder however disagrees with me and says that a
dental specialist had a look at the dog and says it is
definately as a result of bitework and that the jaw itself
has sustained trauma, leading to an overshot jaw and that
the jaw alignment is also faulty. My concern however with
this diagnosis is as follows:

In all the years of me doing this sort of work I have
probably worked between 45-60 dogs from puppy into adult
hood and have NEVER experienced this before.

The dog in question never underwent an x-ray to proving
that
there is an old injury (surely scar tissue would be
present?) so how could this diagnosis be made?

If it was injury related why has the dog always had a hard
crushing grip?

I can also not see how bitework could lead to an overshot
jaw as the top jaw is part of the skull and cannot move,
all the pressure of biting comes from the moveable bottom
jaw so surely pulling and tugging on the bite apparatus
would mean that the lower jaw will be pulled out of place
if anything and could perhaps lead to an undershot jaw? But
then again I have not seen this either.

and finally, if this injury was bitework related, the dog
would have faults or damage to his teeth as well, as they
are surely softer than the jaw and will be pulled out if
the pressure from the tugging is so severe?

I have therefore decided to contact you for your opinion on
the matter. I have also contacted overseas veterinary
dental experts who have said that the only way the growth
of the lower jaw could have been affected resulting in a
overshot upper jaw, is if the jaw sustained serious trauma
such as a fracture, which this dog hasn't. One of the vets
mentioned that if we had done serious amounts of bitework,
and he used an example that is impossible by saying 1-2
hours of bite work every day ( we do bitework once or twice
a week for no longer than 10 minutes a session) then the
growth of the lower jaw may be stunted but this never
happens. 

My question to you is have you ever seen a dog that has a
jaw (not a teeth problem) problem as mentioned above as a
direct result of protection work training? or is this a
simple genetic fault the dog was born with? What do you
advise?

I hope you can help me clear this matter up ASAP, your
advice will be much appreciated!

Kindest regards,

Jehane Le Grange
Port Elizabeth
South Africa"


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Wait, stop, you said that bite work CAUSED this condition? I had a Malinois imported The Netherlands several years ago. The guy told me that the teeth will shift and all would be OK. The space was enough to slide two nickles in there. *BS!*

Try the word "genetics" and see how that fits. IF a puppy is allowed to do targeting while teething, which I do, and lots of lifting and pulling takes place, I can see some tooth set damage that MIGHT take place from the activity. This is the reason we do slip and wins. Understand that even while teething, ALL puppies eat and use their mouth. 

Sounds like someone isn't with this planet!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:---)


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

It is genetic. I have worked more dogs than that, and never saw a single problem that didn't exist before the work.

Get your money back, as the guy is bullshit.


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## Jason Moore (May 3, 2009)

Like they said it's genetic. You have this in horses and they call it parrot mouth. I don't know if it would cause a problem in bite work because I have no experience but it's definatly not a dog I would want to breed. If the only thing you were looking for is a working dog and it dosn't affect his grip and you think you could be happy with the dog I would say keep him and work him. But if your not satisfied and are not going to be happy with the dog he's not a pet to you as well as the working then I would want my money back. Because it's not any thing you've done. Like you said the top of the mouth is stationary and the bottom of the jaw is what would move. Like you said how is the bottom jaw going to move inward by pulling outward on your sleave/tug whatever. If the guy does not make good on him. Out him on it. Make him pay one way or another.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Aside an injury. I would think that exercising the jaw muscles would have a positive effect on development of the natural bite.


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## Andrew Rowley (Nov 3, 2008)

Caused by bitework??? Tosh!

My rott was born with a slight undershot jaw, has no problems with bitework. It has though prevented me from considering breeding him, shame as otherwise hes a good dog.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Ha ha a breeder of gsd and he is taht clules of bitework. overshott in gsd is prety comon AND it can be ok when checkt at 8 weeks of age and still grow in to that kind of overshott.

I have seen dogs go from overshot to slight undershott, sizzor to undershot and sizzort to slight overshoot, and its ONLY genetic. The breeder nead to take a cores in genetics and maby studdy its own breed and what problems might show upp in the GSD.


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## Jehane Michael Le Grange (Feb 24, 2009)

Thanks for the valuable comments! Like I said, the breeder is telling me that it is NOT genetic and that the bitewrok I have done with the dog (I am the dog's helper) has caused this overbite....I know myself that this is definately genetic but wanted to see what everyone else that has worked dogs, thinks. 

Obviously, judging from the replies I am right, it is genetic...

Thanks to you for supporting me! LOL...I am going to show the breeder the response I have got, not only from these replies but from veterinary dental specialists from america and europe and australia to see what she says then.

Regards to all


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## Jehane Michael Le Grange (Feb 24, 2009)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Wait, stop, you said that bite work CAUSED this condition?


Hi there, no I did not say that the bite work caused the condition (I am the dogs helper), the breeder of this dog is telling me that by doing bitework from 12 weeks of age this condition has developed. I agree 100% with you that this is a genetic fault but the breeder (I won't mention any names) says it is bitework related. that is why I sent the above e-mail to dental veterinary experts across the world who seem to agree with me (AND ALL THE OTHER PEOPLE ON THIS THREAD) that it IS genetic! Thanks for your reply, always appreciated!


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

It kills me how breeders always try to blame the environment for any obvious genetic problems with their dogs. For example: if a dog has bad hips some breeders blame the owners for keeping the dog on slick or hard floors, if a dog has poor dentention some breeders blame the owner for doing bitework the wrong way, etc.
There is no way that bitework will cause a jaw problem in a normal healthy dog. I can give you the name of a few very good working dog trainers who are also veterinarians and I think they will all tell you the same thing.
I sold an Endor X Layka pup that developed an overshot bite and the guy was working him a lot. I tried to replace the puppy but the dog was working so good the owner wanted to keep the dog anyway (he did not buy the dog for breeding and he was very happy with the puppy). For sure I know this was not from anything the guy was doing in the work......the dog had a genetic overshot, although as he got older the jaw matched up just fine when he was mature.
If the dog works well, then if it were me i would not worry about it, but for sure the breeder needs to know that it is a genetic fault, not a training issue that caused this.


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## Jehane Michael Le Grange (Feb 24, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> I can give you the name of a few very good working dog trainers who are also veterinarians and I think they will all tell you the same thing.
> .


Thanks for the great post please give me these vets' e-mail addresses I would like to use them as a reference when I go back and speak to the breeder...I think I must also just add something to this whole debate or issue...this is a "show line GSD (although he works very very well!!!)" and the breeder doesn't particularly like the whole working side (we have a huge political split in SA between show and working dogs) so she is quite biased and unsupportive of the working dogs but none the less she is a friend of mine so I have to diplomatically tell her that she has produced a bullshit dog...


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

shuld be the first and formost thing for a breeder. studdy you stock, look for tha flaws that will show upp and work away from them. do not try to find exuses for what in you own line of dogs. just get rid of the problem the hard way!


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

mike suttle said:


> It kills me how breeders always try to blame the environment for any obvious genetic problems with their dogs. For example: if a dog has bad hips some breeders blame the owners for keeping the dog on slick or hard floors, if a dog has poor dentention some breeders blame the owner for doing bitework the wrong way, etc.
> There is no way that bitework will cause a jaw problem in a normal healthy dog. I can give you the name of a few very good working dog trainers who are also veterinarians and I think they will all tell you the same thing.
> I sold an Endor X Layka pup that developed an overshot bite and the guy was working him a lot. I tried to replace the puppy but the dog was working so good the owner wanted to keep the dog anyway (he did not buy the dog for breeding and he was very happy with the puppy). For sure I know this was not from anything the guy was doing in the work......the dog had a genetic overshot, although as he got older the jaw matched up just fine when he was mature.
> If the dog works well, then if it were me i would not worry about it, but for sure the breeder needs to know that it is a genetic fault, not a training issue that caused this.


And this is the difference between a good breeder and crap breeder. 
Acknowledging and making right what is a genetic defect vs blaming the owner and denying responsibility. 

Probably best to cut your losses and not expect anything from the breeder. Doubt he/she would be willing to give you your money back and I sure wouldn't want a replacement puppy.


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