# Correction for off lead heeling needed



## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

Zak and I were were at an AKC trial today in an Advance RallyB class. He made a 93, qualified and received his title. We are moving up to Excellance tomorrow. Zak is an intact male and on occasion depending on who has been in the ring prior, I will momentarily lose his attention to a more interesting smell on the mats. Training at home and at our training center I have not had him do this to correct. It almost seems to me that he has learned that at a show and in the ring Mom cant do nothing. I am taking him to a show n go and hope to correct his thoughts on this. Has anyone had this problem and how did you correct it short of neutering? Zak is 15 months old so he might be really into his hormones right now but I do not feel this is any excuse. He is so spot on in practice I really feel he knows he can get by with things he otherwise would not be able to do. Thanks. Vicki


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

set him up for failure and dont let him fail


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

If he really is getting ring wise, the show n go is the way to go. Set it up just like in a trial, no leash, etc. And even let him get away with just a tiny infraction or two so he starts to think this really is another "free for all", then make it clear to him that it's not.

The reason I let them get away with one or two small things before I correct is because I have seen trial wise dogs "test" in a trial, they get away with one thing, and it's all over for the handler, because in the proofing situation they never got away with anything, so they know a lack of immediate correction means none is going to come.

But at his age, it could easily just be horomones and a puppy head. I wouldn't jump straight to trial wise, but more to immature and needs more proofing.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Vicki I don't use a leash to train the heel. I NEVER allow the dog to put his nose to ground sniffing. The correction is a verbal one. I use a chute to train the heel initially it just makes it easier for me and the dog. I condition the dog right off the bat NOT to sniff the ground when we are doing OB. Didnt really answer your question but hopefully something to think about.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

will fernandez said:


> set him up for failure and dont let him fail



yep, yep, yep. 

DFrost


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## Angie Stark (Jul 10, 2009)

will fernandez said:


> set him up for failure and dont let him fail


please elaborate


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Angie Stark said:


> please elaborate


 
Take what distracts your dog the most. Put it all over where you do what you want to do with your dog. If he is distracted by what ever distracts him...correct him. If he gives you the desired behavior reward him. Continue until you dont have to correct him anymore.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Before you go to lengths thinking that he may just be blowing you off (I think it'd be easiest to see a video), he simply may not be in working mode. My dog is sort of the opposite way of yours in on vs off leash healing. Off leash heeling is generally pretty good and once the leash goes off on a trial field, he seems to get "oh, okay, we're heeling with attention now!" It's the heeling with the leash on that can take a bit since I obviously don't require heeling with attention most of the time when we're just out on a walk. What helped is using the fur saver ONLY for obedience training so when you slip it on even on the dead ring, it's his signal that we're about to do obedience. So right before he goes out on the field for a trial, the buckle collar comes off and the fur saver goes on. It's not even really that I'm using it for corrections. It's kind of like putting on a tracking or agitation harness right before you go do it. The dog gets pretty quickly what it's for and it gets them in the correct mindset. Doing that consistently helped my dog's formal on leash obedience. Sniffing is also a displacement activity, so there may be some stress in there too? Just a thought before you light him up with corrections. 

I don't do AKC, so I don't even know what kinds of collars are used or not used, but just my somewhat limited experience in obedience for PSA and Schutzhund.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

will fernandez said:


> Take what distracts your dog the most. Put it all over where you do what you want to do with your dog. If he is distracted by what ever distracts him...correct him. If he gives you the desired behavior reward him. Continue until you dont have to correct him anymore.


My tool for correction off lead is a hidden riding crop or heeling stick .. gee I wonder why they call it that? I work a lot of distractions with one it makes it easy to reach out and touch someone.  

Most if not all my OB training and a large portion of my bite work training is done just with the heeling stick. 

For the original poster Vicki you don't even need to be rough with it, you equate it to what you would do with your regular correction collar. 

For best results don't let the dog see you slide it down the back of your training vest before you take him out of his crate then only slide it out when you need it. You can also keep it tucked close to your body on the opposite side so he doesn't see it when you want to reach out and touch him with it. Mommy can correct him even when he doesn't have a collar on! Surprise surprise surprise









I use this one ..







under 10 bucks. 

Or you can use one of these that is specifically called a heeling stick for $20..


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Geoff 

You know we train similarly...I like the Sjambok the most for the really stubborn dogs costs 14 dollar on coldsteel.com. It is a tool that brings good things as well as corrections.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

I have a little female maltese that lives next door. My dog loves her to lap up her urine where ever she marks in the yard. Two years ago I proofed my OB before a cert trial in my neighbors back yard. Was a bit of a battle but worked brilliantly.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

I've had my eye on a Cold Steel Sjambok for a while Will. I always thought it was a little soft and to get a good touch you'd need to have the right amount of flick to the wrist with the chance of having more correction than was needed. Is it easily controlled? All the videos I've ever seen they make out to be devastating which I am sure it is when used in the manner in the videos out there. I've never held it in my hand so I really don't know what it would feel like to control for lighter use. 

With the riding crop I use you'd really have to swing the arm and wrist to make it painful for the dog. So for me it is easily controlled. I usually swing it around my back and touch the dog on the flank for eye contact during heavy heavy distractions i.e when the decoy suited up agitating the dog. Then send her for bites on eye contact, it works like a charm.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Little flicks work well. 
You get the hang of it pretty quick. 
I use the 42 inch. 
Kind of like the dogtra collar--you can go from 0 to 127. Also works great on handlers that you are helping. They get most of the 127's


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

vicki dickey said:


> Zak and I were were at an AKC trial today in an Advance RallyB class. He made a 93, qualified and received his title. We are moving up to Excellance tomorrow. Zak is an intact male and on occasion depending on who has been in the ring prior, I will momentarily lose his attention to a more interesting smell on the mats. Training at home and at our training center I have not had him do this to correct. It almost seems to me that he has learned that at a show and in the ring Mom cant do nothing. I am taking him to a show n go and hope to correct his thoughts on this. Has anyone had this problem and how did you correct it short of neutering? Zak is 15 months old so he might be really into his hormones right now but I do not feel this is any excuse. He is so spot on in practice I really feel he knows he can get by with things he otherwise would not be able to do. Thanks. Vicki


I would never correct my dog for this. I would go to the mats and let him sniff for while. Really check it out. You might find that he sniffs because he's curious. When he is no longer curious he won't want to sniff so much. But after I allow the dog to sniff for a while I would ask him to do something that he knows well and feels confident doing. Most of my dogs feel comfortable sitting in front and making focus. So While the dog is sniffing I would tell him to "front". If he fails to respond properly I would correct him for not giving me focus until he complied. I would correct for the lack of focus, not the sniffing.

The reason I don't correct the dog for the sniffing is because he may believe he's being corrected for something else. How does the dog know he's not being corrected for simply walking on the mat or being in the ring? And if the dog is confused and stress because he dosen't know why you are punishing him he will start screwing up exercises and make things far worse than the sniffing. 

I think that correcting male dogs for sniffing is also the reason why some dogs won't breed with their handler around. When the dog was a teenager he started sniffing the scent of a bitch in heat on the training field and the handler wailed on him for it. Now the dog didn't just learn to not sniff, he learned to turn off his sex drives or in a bad relationship he will bite the handler.

Congrats on the new title.


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

One easy solution to what Christopher said, heel=eye contact, make it clear and teach it, then correct for no eye contact. 

I also like the idea to let the dog sniff the matts if you can before you start the routine, have a relaxed state that he is allowed to be in, and then the no more bs the routine starts now mode. You can teach him a free dog command.


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

will fernandez said:


> set him up for failure and dont let him fail


I thought this was interesting..I set my dogs up in training to make mistakes and then I am in a position to correct for the mistake and reward them once it is properly done.. I find this cuts down on the “my dog never did that before” moments I have in trials \\/


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## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

Well this is interesting-I have never heard of a heeling stick not even in the many classes I have attended. Actually a good idea. IAnd just a touch could be quite the thing and if you always keep it hidden he would never know when you pull it out. Thank you!


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## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

Hi Brian,
Zak was also trained to heel without a leash and oddly enough he was never a sniffer until he found out there were girl dogs. He has always had great attention on me as he is a mommy's boy. I am hoping just an unexpected correction in the ring in show conditions at the showngo will do the trick for us. We are off to a show this morning for Excellant Rally and I did surprise him this morning when I did a quick heeling practice by grabbing him when he forged just a bit. I accidently caught the tip of his ear in all the hair and although I did not pull on him the touch brought him right back where he belonged. We will see today if that is all it took.


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## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

The dogs are never allowed in the ring area prior to the classes. When we walk into the ring the judging is on so there is never a chance to just let him have his fill of sniffing the mats. However I have noticed that on the second day of the show -after he has been there the prior day-he doesnt sniff at all or very little. I always wondered if this was because his scent is now there. Thanks to everyone-we are off for our second day and we moved up to the next level in rally. I will let you all know how things went today. Thanks to all!


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## Angie Stark (Jul 10, 2009)

ooooh yea...the heeling stick! I was actually told to do this a few months back and in all of the info I was taking in...I forgot about it. My dog doesn't have particular distractions he simply gives me the middle paw on the trial field. 3 day trial and by the third day he was 'heeling' completely in front of me. Then this spring he was better but still far from me and forged. Ive been purposely not trialing him to 'save up' my heeling for the trial coming up. :roll: Im stopping at the farm store on the way to training today and get a crop. I can't believe I forgot that. Thanks so much every one!


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

vicki dickey said:


> Well this is interesting-I have never heard of a heeling stick not even in the many classes I have attended. Actually a good idea. IAnd just a touch could be quite the thing and if you always keep it hidden he would never know when you pull it out. Thank you!


Not a problem for the info. Old school Schutzhund and Field dog trainers have been using heeling sticks for years. Now that I have gotten a rythm with it, it has become very effective for all my off leash training. I temper it (any of my correction methods) with marker training with voice and clicker, so it is very clear to the dog what is expected of him/her. 

I think a lot of the old school methods get overshadowed just because of people's personal views of what a specific tool is capable of abuse wise. Everybody has the stories of prong, choke and e-collars where abuse happens, same goes for heeling sticks. But really it is not the tool, but the operator of the tool that gauges that. 

I really prefer the heeling stick over an e-collar for my training as the dog knows it is coming from me, not from the hand of god. I've had some of my own dogs become e-collar wise as well over the years, but they have never gotten heeling stick wise.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Christopher Smith said:


> I would never correct my dog for this. I would go to the mats and let him sniff for while. Really check it out. You might find that he sniffs because he's curious. When he is no longer curious he won't want to sniff so much. But after I allow the dog to sniff for a while I would ask him to do something that he knows well and feels confident doing. Most of my dogs feel comfortable sitting in front and making focus. So While the dog is sniffing I would tell him to "front". If he fails to respond properly I would correct him for not giving me focus until he complied. I would correct for the lack of focus, not the sniffing.


Exactly Chris I like your explanation. With any correction, it needs to be understood by the dog 'why' he/she is being corrected for. Or else it just isn't fair for the dog.


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

will fernandez said:


> Take what distracts your dog the most. Put it all over where you do what you want to do with your dog. If he is distracted by what ever distracts him...correct him. If he gives you the desired behavior reward him. Continue until you dont have to correct him anymore.


I'm glad you explained this as I would have worded it as: set him up, let him fail, correct it.... But I also like Chris' post in that you are correcting for already trained behavior and a broken command, something clear that the dog understands not for "sniffing" or curiosity. Also good call on letting him get it out if his system... Ive done that in the past with a particular dog and it helped a lot.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Geoff Empey said:


> Exactly Chris I like your explanation. With any correction, it needs to be understood by the dog 'why' he/she is being corrected for. Or else it just isn't fair for the dog.


 
I also thought that post by Chris was a good one. What it also infers though if I am not wrong, is that you have to understand what is going on with the dog before you can understand when it is correct to correct. That is why it is often important to consider why the behaviour occurs as opposed to correcting or 'just training' I would think.

Sorry for the babble, I like to join in.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

maggie fraser said:


> I also thought that post by Chris was a good one. What it also infers though if I am not wrong, is that you have to understand what is going on with the dog before you can understand when it is correct to correct. That is why it is often important to consider why the behaviour occurs as opposed to correcting or 'just training' I would think.


I don't really try to put the process of a behaviourist behind my training. You know to 'understand' Ha ha! I don't profess to be a behaviourist so I have to keep it simple. First of all dogs themselves don't reason, it is more black and white a dog's thought process any ways. My own mantra is what I see with incorrect behaviour is *myself* not providing a foundation for a path for the dog to learn. 

That being said ..

So if you keep it square for yourself and the dog there is less chance of both of you screwing up. It always goes back to the foundation of anything taught. You can always go back to eye contact, a down or heel position if that is the foundation you have to go back to (depending on the exercise at the time) if a dog offers a displacement type of behaviour, well that is where you need to back up a few steps. Those are always foundation to go back too you can count on, (age and training appropriate of course) if the dog doesn't comply to the trained foundation. Well then there is negative consequences for the dog, it isn't brain surgery. 

For the OP her issue is the dog being ring wise giving her the finger by doing displacement behaviours and the like. (sniffing etc) I see it all the time in my own training. For example there is a fence post where all the dogs seem to like to piss on in our field where we park our vehicles, all the dogs gravitate to it. So it is always a great set up for a fail test to proof heeling, eye contact and even recalls. As we all know the distraction is there to overcome every time. So we can plan for it from the start much like Will's neighbour's Maltese urine. As wonderful as that urine is for the dog ... it is eye contact time none other! LOL! 

Good info in Marta's post too



Marta Haus said:


> One easy solution to what Christopher said, heel=eye contact, make it clear and teach it, then correct for no eye contact.
> 
> I also like the idea to let the dog sniff the matts if you can before you start the routine, have a relaxed state that he is allowed to be in, and then the no more bs the routine starts now mode. You can teach him a free dog command.


In Ringsport trials there is a 3m window before the start of the exercise which is a free zone where you are not being judged for the exercise itself. But once you understand the deputy judge's instructions and then enter that 3m zone you are being judged officially. So I am a lot more relaxed with my body language, voice and mannerisms outside the 3m or in between exercises even though I still am looking for control. Though once we are in the 3m it has to be square, by the book chop chop and all business and the dog knows it.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

maggie fraser said:


> I also thought that post by Chris was a good one. What it also infers though if I am not wrong, is that you have to understand what is going on with the dog before you can understand when it is correct to correct. That is why it is often important to consider why the behaviour occurs as opposed to correcting or 'just training' I would think.
> 
> Sorry for the babble, I like to join in.





Geoff Empey said:


> *I don't really try to put the process of a behaviourist behind my training. You know to 'understand' Ha ha! I don't profess to be a behaviourist so I have to keep it simple. First of all dogs themselves don't reason, *
> 
> That being said ..
> 
> ...


Why does one have to be either a trainer or behaviourist ? What happened to learning a wee bit about dogs in general before embarking on an advanced discipline ? That is exactly where that perception comes from in my view. You get folks on here get themselves a 'working dog', join a french ring club or similar and all of a sudden they know about dogs . They don't know about basic behaviour yet they are encouraged to train in an advanced discipline....just get the tools out.

You know, we had a documentary on tv a few years ago here where a guy who had no previous horse knowledge decided he wanted to make a go of it and thought he could compete up there having the funds for the good horses and trainers etc. He was such a fkn laughing stock, 'cos you can't be good like the good until you understand the basics and that definitely includes the behaviour. You have to be something really quite special otherwise. Probably just a culture clash thing. I try to get my head round it every time I come on here.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

maggie fraser said:


> Why does one have to be either a trainer or behaviourist ? What happened to learning a wee bit about dogs in general before embarking on an advanced discipline ?


Why do people always want to make it more complicated than what it is? That's my question. Just get your leash, bait bag and clicker and have at 'er! Sure you need some lessons from someone in the know but really why does it need to be complicated when it really isn't? 



> 'cos you can't be good like the good until you understand the basics and that definitely includes *the behaviour.* You have to be something really quite special otherwise. Probably just a culture clash thing. I try to get my head round it every time I come on here.


I'm nowhere near a pro trainer let alone an esteemed behaviourist but I get good results by always just returning to the basics. I don't think anyone here is giving the OP any uber advanced techniques that will put her or her dog in any quandry. It doesn't get more basic than asking for eye contact with a 'touch' on the arse during training.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

> ... if a dog offers a displacement type of behaviour, well that is where you need to back up a few steps.


 I would rather my dog never make displacement or superstitious behaviors in the first place. It's an important part of how I train and the main reason I raise and train my dogs from puppies. I'm aware that in the beginning it takes a lot longer than other methods, but in the long run the training goes much faster because of the way that my dog and I are working together. I like to go slow to go fast.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Geoff Empey said:


> Why do people always want to make it more complicated than what it is? That's my question. Just get your leash, bait bag and clicker and have at 'er! Sure you need some lessons from someone in the know but really why does it need to be complicated when it really isn't?
> .


Because it really is....more complicated or at least, considerably deeper than you infer. How can something be so uncomplicated where behaviour is concerned ?? If that were the case we would all be master trainers wouldn't we ? Read a couple of books, watch a couple of vids, get a couple of lessons.... I suppose where I am hitting from is one ought to learn to walk before they run. I'm referring to hobbyists, sports etc. LE and miltary do it a wee bit different for different reasons as well as the commercial end, and after all, training is manipulating behaviour isn't it ?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

maggie fraser said:


> Because it really is....more complicated or at least, considerably deeper than you infer. How can something be so uncomplicated where behaviour is concerned ?? If that were the case we would all be master trainers wouldn't we ? Read a couple of books, watch a couple of vids, get a couple of lessons.... I suppose where I am hitting from is one ought to learn to walk before they run. I'm referring to hobbyists, sports etc. LE and miltary do it a wee bit different for different reasons as well as the commercial end, and after all, training is manipulating behaviour isn't it ?



I like that! :wink:


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## Angie Stark (Jul 10, 2009)

will fernandez said:


> Geoff
> 
> You know we train similarly...I like the Sjambok the most for the really stubborn dogs costs 14 dollar on coldsteel.com. It is a tool that brings good things as well as corrections.


I got one of these...it is SUPER COOL! albeit a tad long for me even tho Im 5' 7". Its probably perfect for you taller guys. The dressage whip I picked up at the farm store is much more agile and concealable for use as a heeling stick but this sjambok thing is freakin awesome! That thing can do some serious damage to someone!


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