# Bark Indications



## Nancy Jocoy

I am separately working on building the bark with Beau to build into his indication later.

It is not easy for this pup. He is honestly not much of a barky dog anyway you cut it. Am I going to unleash something I wish I had not?

I am getting them - with frustrating him by backtying him then teasing with the tug, then rewarding a bark but it is slow in coming though I am pretty sure we will get there.

Since this is being added to his repertoire how do I keep him from "fringe barking" [if that is a term] same way as you prevent fringe alerting by only rewarding a bark at source? Barking I know can escalate and be self rewarding on its own.


----------



## Bart Karmich

Why would you choose this alert? It is contrary to normal canine behavior. If it is a hound maybe he trees his quarry and bays, but normally a hunting dog that makes a lot of noise is a stupid and hungry dog. Just wondering your reasoning.

I can tell you my dog is always quiet in the field. Very noisy at home, especially if I didn't discourage it. But in the field silent. When I make noise or talk or bang around he looks at me like I'm kind of dumb, but then he's pretty used to me being like that now.


----------



## Nancy Jocoy

The main reason is (and I know other HRD handlers have dealt with this) we often have to work in heavy brush and can't see the dog. If it is a large scent source they will leave us to go to source and that can be a good distance if it is a large scent source. They work offlead. He finds odor and sits. and sits. and sits.

So now I have to beat around looking for my silent dog.


----------



## Bart Karmich

Nothing wrong with teaching the bark at home like you describe though. I don't think teaching the dog to "bark-to-get" necessarily increases their propensity to bark in other situations like territorial barking, threat displays, etc. The motivation is different. Obedience barking can be back-chained to the performance of other tasks as in the "find and bark" in Schutzhund. I wouldn't use it as an indication or for any purpose in the field for the reason I stated. McConnelly wrote an article "bark and die" which points out why what makes sense in schutzhund is dumb in reality. I can't say I'm a fan yet but at least he's smart enough to point out something that should be obvious to the dog.


----------



## Bart Karmich

GPS tracking collar and display, Garmin Astro


----------



## julie allen

It may increase barking, for things he wants like toys, treats, food, etc. It is different than an aggressive bark like at passerbys or a helper in bite sports.
I have a quiet one so far I have been unable to encourage barking no matter what I do. The bark alert is definitely a big plus. In high grass, brush, even buildings with several rooms. Places you can't go into, its almost imperative to have a bark alert. 

I don't think you will have any issue with fringe barking alert, as long as he isn't fringe alerting with the sit alert. By adding bark along with sit, he should only bark where he would sit, so with correct training it shouldn't be an issue.


----------



## Michele Fleury

I am not a fan of the bark alert in a wilderness or water search dog for the reasons you fear. I have seen fringe and frustration barking. This issue is huge in water search because I have seen repetitive barking out of frustration because they can't get to the source fast enough and barking while on water echoes and carries a great distance. It's annoying to everyone.

Options: Refind, GPS tracking collar on the dog like the Astro, beeper collar on the dog that changes tone when the dog stops moving, or train him to not range out of sight


----------



## Jennifer Michelson

Griffin is a silent dog and had a hard time learning to bark for his reward. It probably didnt help that he was my first dog and I had never taught this type of behavior before. But he is a truly silent dog. I wouldnt have bothered if we werent going to do disaster.

That said-I like the bark alert even in wilderness especially for HR. I do want to know what is going on if he gets further than me and makes a find. Neither one of my dogs is noisier because of the bark alert. Unless they think I 'have something' or if they are revved up and are asking me for their reward. If I teach something new and they cant figure out the behavior, if they get frustrated, I get the sit and bark. The thought process seems to be, "if all else fails and no reward is produced...I should bark cause that is how I get my reward"

As with other rewards--only reward what is correct. I do not like dogs who bark all over the place. And even though I dont have a 'stare and bark', I have a committed bark. Remus (hr) stays at the source and barks. Before he barks, I have pretty solid behavior indicating where he thinks it is (deep nose, paws etc). When training the bark, I attempted to only reward when his nose was close to source, even if it happened after a bark looking towards me. I dont reward when he is looking at me. I dont use a 'show me' until after he has barked. Then if he has moved away at all (or is looking at me too much), I ask him to show me.

I do occasionally get a frustration bark when he cant pinpoint, but he doesnt stop working, he is telling me he cant figure it out. Neither of my dogs will do their alert until they can pinpoint--to the point where I feel they are a bit slow. Both insist on being 'just right'


----------



## Nancy Jocoy

Some things to cogitate on...

My hesitation is that right now I own a delightfully quiet dog after owning a frustration barker.

Astro is an option. I know we have had some trouble with them in ravines and deep brush (the collar unit) but that has been using them with a remote antenna. I may borrow the team handheld and a collar to try it out the way it was meant to be used (one dog one handheld, even though it can handle more) which would be a much shorter transmission distance

The boat is a different story. I want to build on that calmness while scanning - this last time he jumped up and hung his head over the boat when we got right on top of source and was very animated..I can also see if he follows odor as we pass through it. See what he offers at our next water training...... I was actually talking with his breeder and she said the best water dog she had almost slept on the front of the boat until he hit odor and had 27 water finds and that she really didn't take credit for it..


----------



## Bob Scott

Some dogs are natural barkers and some aren't. I look at teaching the bark in the same way I look at in teaching the jumps. I've taught a number of dogs competition jumping but none have ever became fence jumpers.
Same thing for the barking. 
Once the dog starts "getting it" away from the target then start putting the bark with the target right away. Some only teach the bark alert when at the target scent.


----------



## Bob Scott

Also, away from source can be corrected! :wink:


----------



## Bart Karmich

The telemetry collars are supposed to be better for longer range and in difficult terrain than GPS. But I would go for GPS if it works because there's more features. You can record all the data and plot tracks on a map without a lot of additional effort.


----------



## jan reuvekamp

Aftera long search some dog have problems barking at the source. Is there any writing about this about why an how?


----------



## julie allen

jan reuvekamp said:


> Aftera long search some dog have problems barking at the source. Is there any writing about this about why an how?


That's interesting, I'd like to hear more on that.

When mine have been working for hours, its real hot, or they are very tired, they aren't as fast to alert. Neither the bark or the sit, they will just stand over it for a minute, as if taking a short break. 
I have done lots of motivationals lately, to work on a fast alert, and they have no problem unless its been a long search and they are tired.

We had one department call us out, it was 104 degrees, I agreed but explained we would only do spot checks. Worked out fine since they had already located several areas with bones present. None human. When we finished and left that area, I ran an easy motivational hide. Though both located it right away, they were slow to alert, just stood over it and stared at me. Alerted a minute or so after, which is very unusual especially for the young dog, who often drops into a sit when she hits odor lol. Usually I don't do any training after searching, but since the temps were so hot and they worked hard, I wanted to pay them.


----------



## Craig Snyder

I'm along the same lines as Bob. (at least I think I am) I'd try to train the bark as a totally separate command, (include a hand signal), away from the HRD training first. Once that is done, chain it onto whatever you typically use for your HRD find, which sounds like you are using a sit maybe?

Craig


----------



## Nancy Jocoy

I have seen that breakdown on a dog with a recall refind where handler wants them to bark at them to "alert" and take them back. But I have seen same thing with the bump breaking down or with multiple refinds...but I think for an HR dog hitting something strong enough to pull them away from you they are going to be pretty ramped up.

I am still studying on the bark beacause I *have* seen the frustration barking in the boat and it IS a major headache and makes pinpointing harder. I agree it really is more likely there because the dog is not allowed to jump off and go to source unlike on land where they are in control of their body.....

The GPS or even a beeper collar could work on land....honestly the only time my current dog is enough out of sight that I can't find him quickly is a very large odor (such as a whole decomp body) which is actually not very common for us...and we could work around. I can already see the new pup is more methodical and focused ..... so it may be less likely.

I really want to see my dog working as much as possible for HR...just sometimes...in heavy brush..you just can't.


----------



## Nancy Jocoy

Craig Snyder said:


> I'm along the same lines as Bob. (at least I think I am) I'd try to train the bark as a totally separate command, (include a hand signal), away from the HRD training first. Once that is done, chain it onto whatever you typically use for your HRD find, which sounds like you are using a sit maybe?
> 
> Craig


Yes, sit/stare.
Def would train bark separate if I go that way then prompt.

Jim uses a touch and I know others do on a "show me" but I don't want a show me command...arguments aside, LE calls us out and most don't like it that I have seen.


----------



## Craig Snyder

Bart Karmich said:


> Why would you choose this alert? It is contrary to normal canine behavior. If it is a hound maybe he trees his quarry and bays, but normally a hunting dog that makes a lot of noise is a stupid and hungry dog. Just wondering your reasoning.


Just a note. While Nancy is working with an HRD dog, many SAR dogs are trained with a bark alert. Many live scent dogs are trained that way because if the handler/owner thinks they might want to move from wilderness live scent to a live scent disaster dog, the FEMA standards require a bark alert dog to work on rubble. 

I think for wilderness a refind dog is more practical but since wilderness airscent is often the first step toward making a disaster dog you'll find a lot of wilderness bark alert dogs.

The team I first got exposed to SAR with only trained refind dogs so thats what I got into with mine. Now I'm thinking I'd like to do a disaster dog but having a refind dog means I have to change her alert or start with a new dog.

A lot of folks don't realize that there are many types of SAR dogs and most usually have a very specific discipline within SAR. There are few SAR dogs that are really great at everything. (I.e. both HRD and live and + water + tracking, plus evidence), and those are usually the older dogs that have gotten cross trained and have very experienced handlers. Part of that is simply the huge time commitment it takes to train in all those areas and keeping the dog sharp in all those areas. 

It can take hours to set up and do just one training run. Shorter stuff can be done but you can't just train on short evolutions all the time. Water training is especially time consuming. You have to know your dog is capable of working 2-4 hrs at a time, especially for wilderness.

So once you start down one path of SAR with a dog, it can be difficult to switch and choose another and maybe have to change an alert.

I'll train my live scent dog for HRD eventually but primarily from the standpoint of finding a whole, deceased body in the woods. I doubt I will train her for the detailed, blood drops and teeth HRD stuff that Nancy, and I believe Julia, both train for. At least not till she's older and her days of running the woods are in the near future. So maybe someday we might be ok at it, and be able to pass certifications, we'll never be as good as a pure HRD specialist team.

Craig


----------



## Nancy Jocoy

For detection dogs as well, I think most are pretty strong at the dog MUST stay with the source. I think it is even written into the IPWDA standards.

More leniency with an agressive alert but, once again, that limits your from some training venues and some LE simply don't want it even if you are fast on top of the dog.

But when Grim got to his real first decomp body we had to throw the ball BEFORE he got right to it. None of that "hesitation" folks talk about. Sure he would have *dove right in*.

Gotta go. Training with LE K9 units every Wed afternoon. Yay!


----------



## Jim Delbridge

Just as a side note on the "recall" or "telemetry" with HRD. Many times the HRD dog is used to find the bones the scavengers don't take. These are the phalanges and menages, small finger and toe bones. These can be very hard to find once and do require a dog to target because often with the handler right there he/she can't see the bone(s).
Barking in the field with an HRD dog isn't a big deal as I've yet to scare any human remains once they end up somewhere.
My experiences with a "show me" is the LE I work with like it as it gives them a solid visualization of where the dog thinks the scent is coming from.
Bob is right, teaching "bark" implicitly also means you can teach the "no bark!" when you are out of scent.

Jim Delbridge


----------



## Bart Karmich

There may be lots of different kinds of tasks for humans, HR, cadaver, narc, explosives, disaster or whatever. But there is for the dog hunting. In nature, a predator does not make a racket in the hunt. It does not make a racket in the kill. Racket is almost always some kind of social behavior which does not factor much into hunting. This was implicit to man, also a predator, and selection of hunting dogs (aside from scent hounds which technically do not bark) has been for those silent in their work. In field trials and hunting tests, a dog is considered faulty if he barks. It's a disqualification.

In my mind it is easy to take a good hunting dog and teach them to hunt for the quarry of your choice. It is stupid to take a dog that sucks at hunting and program them to perform an obedience task on odor. In the long run you will lose the good hunting dogs and gain incompetent dogs and weak handlers.


----------



## Jim Delbridge

Ummmm, me thinks you've never been on a fox hunt or that great southern american tradition of the **** hunt where the dogs go baying across the countryside at night with the scent of their prey exciting them.

There are lots of variations on hunting and hunting dogs as humans have made a great mess of the original creatures.

these same variations can make great HRD dogs as the ones who have genetically gone to the extreme of having to roll in remains of any kind to mask their own scent. This way they can lay in wait for prey without their scent warning the prey off.

Jim


Jim


----------



## Craig Snyder

Bart Karmich said:


> In my mind it is easy to take a good hunting dog and teach them to hunt for the quarry of your choice. It is stupid to take a dog that sucks at hunting and program them to perform an obedience task on odor. In the long run you will lose the good hunting dogs and gain incompetent dogs and weak handlers.


I'm not going to fully agree with you here. "hunting" can include a lot of different behaviors. Just because a dog sucks at hunting doesn't necessarily mean the dog has a bad nose. That nose might be great. And the behavior that makes it a lousy hunting dog might allow that dog to be a great detection dog.

If the hunting drive is too great you might never get a dog that will ignore an animal scent or track. That's not a good thing when your dog is off leash in park of several thousand acres. If you are tracking you could find yourself being hauled all over the area. It can make training a dog a nightmare if they are so hunt driven that they can't be redirected.

HRD probably wants a very methodical, detail oriented K9 but high drive dog that doesn't give up, (generalizing here). A dog from a true hunting line might not be the best for that. 

Wilderness SAR usually wants a dog that ranges but has superior off leash control and isn't found in the next county within ten minutes of being let lose. I've seen some some stubborn hunting dogs off leash. One of the reasons they make money selling the Astro dog collars! 

Those training disater dogs want a determined dog with a great nose that doesn't give up. Agility is very important but having a dog that lives to run and chase probably wouldn't be the first choice to work an unstable rubble pile.

But all of the above want the best nose on their dog they can get.

All IMHO.

Craig


----------



## julie allen

Last week, we were asked to pinpoint the source of scent, as there were no visual signs at all. Out if the five hr dogs, my two were the only ones trained to "show me". That is asked after an alert. Which can be helpful, in this case, as the alert was given inside a house. 

Here it didn't matter if they bark or sat, or even scratched probably. When we tested in rubble, we were given an area with no access for handlers. So the sit alert dogs had no way to communicate to the handlers as the find was on the back side of the rubble. They also have to remain with the find, so refind was out. 

I agree with the refind being tough on small sources. I feel its almost a waste of energy on the dogs part, if searching for scattered small remains especially. Here we don't have vast wilderness areas to search. 

On live find wilderness, I could see where a barking dog would frighten a small child, elderly, or mentally challenged person.


----------



## julie allen

Bart Karmich said:


> There may be lots of different kinds of tasks for humans, HR, cadaver, narc, explosives, disaster or whatever. But there is for the dog hunting. In nature, a predator does not make a racket in the hunt. It does not make a racket in the kill. Racket is almost always some kind of social behavior which does not factor much into hunting. This was implicit to man, also a predator, and selection of hunting dogs (aside from scent hounds which technically do not bark) has been for those silent in their work. In field trials and hunting tests, a dog is considered faulty if he barks. It's a disqualification.
> 
> In my mind it is easy to take a good hunting dog and teach them to hunt for the quarry of your choice. It is stupid to take a dog that sucks at hunting and program them to perform an obedience task on odor. In the long run you will lose the good hunting dogs and gain incompetent dogs and weak handlers.


One reason many people in sar, le, arson, etc, don't always use typical "hunting dogs", is because we have to have some amount of obedience. You don't only rely on the dogs instinct alone. It would be counter productive to find little missing johnny only to have your dog kill the kid before you get there lol.
Wolves probably have the best hunting instincts there are, but we don't look to them to hunt for us, or perform tasks in sar, or look for narcotics. So while much of it is instinct, as the hunting for the scent, much of it is also obedience, as stop on command, waiting for reward, etc. The whole reason we developed breeds to work for us, so we can choose the good hunt instinct, and biddability. So there is no reason you are ruining the hunting skills of a dog by asking it to bark on the find, anymore than you are ruining the drives in a protection dog by asking it to bite and hold the prey.


----------



## Nancy Jocoy

Back from an excellent training. We have not done many building searches yet (with the pup) but today I had two unknowns in 3 large + 3 small rooms of an old factory full of boxes, trash, etc., as well as distracters (LE hides for cocaine, meth, and marijuana). Beau nailed his two cadaver hides and did not even give a COB around the drugs

Ok back to bark.............

If I have a dog that will hunt for several hours for one specific item to the exclusion of all else...to the point of ingoring complete dead bloated animals, live animals and everything else around him ...... I think that dog is hunting good. It is a discipline where you better have records demonstrating reliability and certifications as well..something not asked of a hunting dog. It is no big deal if a hunt dog misses his quarry* but it is if a detection dog of any sort misses or tells you it is what he's looking for when it ain't. So I am not sure how you can say these dogs are not hunting because of some trained indication. 

We talked about the bark at training today and the folks I am working with this who are a NAPWDA trainer and master trainer feel that we can modularize the training and make the bark very specific to source as I voiced my concern about frustration barking. 

I really don't have this concern on land as I think the frustration on water is the fact that the dog can't get to source fast enough. Even my old bark manic water dog does not bark on land.

They feel once that barkbarkbark frustration pattern is established it is very hard to break (yes, oh dear God, yes) but we have a clean slate who happens to be a very quick learner and the goal is to prevent it from starting in the first place.

I can say that my teammate had a problem with her dog launching off the boat the minute he hit odor and swimming to source and in one day, they pretty much helped her get it under control. 

In the meanwhile, I think I will work on a touch command [completely separate once again-I pretty much have that with marker training anyway just for fu] ..not sure I need to use it each and every time but I, too, can see the benefit for scatter because once bones are out for awhile they can be very hard to see, particulary in our moist, acid, oak/hickory forest soils. So those who use touch, (show me), do you use it every time or just as needed? . 

*well if he missess it all the time that would be a problem but I think a lot more is asked of a detection dog than a hunt dog in terms of reliability.


----------



## Jennifer Michelson

Just an FYI....my dogs hunt very well and also bark at their 'quarry' very well. It is not an obedience exercise and they do not hunt as obedience. They hunt because they want to ( I believe my older dog would work until he keeled over) and because it gets them what they want. They are conditioned to believe that the bark at the source brings them their 'goodies' (ball and/or tug for my guys).

And I have followed fox hounds and beagles and they aint quiet!!!

Nancy--Remus is a vocal whiner, moaner, barker, sigher etc etc. He is rarely totally quiet, mostly whining and not too much unwarranted barking. He barks at the door when someone knocks and occasionally at a rude dog. He was easy to teach to bark at source and in 2.5 years I believe he has had a barking fit at me 3 times trying to get a reward out of me. He will bark a few times if he is trying to understand something new and cant figure it out. But only 3 times did he really get over the top, give me a f'ing ball now bark at me. I just tell him to knock it off and often walk away from him (he did it once during a training problem and I put him up). 

Griffin my silent boy has never barked inappropriately and still does not bark at the door, at other dogs etc. He barks when he thinks he will get his search reward-and he has a wonderful, strong bark alert.


----------



## Nancy Jocoy

Ah yes, I DO remember that you also had to work at getting barks out of Griffin. I got some help today and we got some barks and some technique help to jack up the value of the toy even more. Glad to hear it is still working well some years later.

I will tell you that ramping him up like this is really making him even more the tug monster when he gets it.


----------



## Jennifer Michelson

At this point Griffin barks for 1 thing and it is a nice strong deep bark. I dont know how I would teach a dog like this to bark next time, but I would not do it the same way. I did get help from a schutzhund trainer, and we back tied him. For him, he had to get 'over the top' to get to the bark and I believe I paired the bark with hectic behavior. While now it is fine, I then had to work on the hectic behavior That probably wouldnt have been there with out 'forcing' him to bark. I would imagine there arent many gsds as silent as Griffy. I, being new and intense, probably rushed the process when I didnt have to.


----------



## Bob Scott

Jim Delbridge said:


> Ummmm, me thinks you've never been on a fox hunt or that great southern american tradition of the **** hunt where the dogs go baying across the countryside at night with the scent of their prey exciting them.
> 
> There are lots of variations on hunting and hunting dogs as humans have made a great mess of the original creatures.
> 
> these same variations can make great HRD dogs as the ones who have genetically gone to the extreme of having to roll in remains of any kind to mask their own scent. This way they can lay in wait for prey without their scent warning the prey off.
> 
> Jim
> 
> 
> Jim



I've listened to many earth working terriers bark and bay for hours till we dig to them.


----------



## julie allen

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Back from an excellent training. We have not done many building searches yet (with the pup) but today I had two unknowns in 3 large + 3 small rooms of an old factory full of boxes, trash, etc., as well as distracters (LE hides for cocaine, meth, and marijuana). Beau nailed his two cadaver hides and did not even give a COB around the drugs
> 
> Ok back to bark.............
> 
> If I have a dog that will hunt for several hours for one specific item to the exclusion of all else...to the point of ingoring complete dead bloated animals, live animals and everything else around him ...... I think that dog is hunting good. It is a discipline where you better have records demonstrating reliability and certifications as well..something not asked of a hunting dog. It is no big deal if a hunt dog misses his quarry* but it is if a detection dog of any sort misses or tells you it is what he's looking for when it ain't. So I am not sure how you can say these dogs are not hunting because of some trained indication.
> 
> We talked about the bark at training today and the folks I am working with this who are a NAPWDA trainer and master trainer feel that we can modularize the training and make the bark very specific to source as I voiced my concern about frustration barking.
> 
> I really don't have this concern on land as I think the frustration on water is the fact that the dog can't get to source fast enough. Even my old bark manic water dog does not bark on land.
> 
> They feel once that barkbarkbark frustration pattern is established it is very hard to break (yes, oh dear God, yes) but we have a clean slate who happens to be a very quick learner and the goal is to prevent it from starting in the first place.
> 
> I can say that my teammate had a problem with her dog launching off the boat the minute he hit odor and swimming to source and in one day, they pretty much helped her get it under control.
> 
> In the meanwhile, I think I will work on a touch command [completely separate once again-I pretty much have that with marker training anyway just for fu] ..not sure I need to use it each and every time but I, too, can see the benefit for scatter because once bones are out for awhile they can be very hard to see, particulary in our moist, acid, oak/hickory forest soils. So those who use touch, (show me), do you use it every time or just as needed? .
> 
> *well if he missess it all the time that would be a problem but I think a lot more is asked of a detection dog than a hunt dog in terms of reliability.


Nancy, I only use show me occasionally. Greta will point to the source or strongest scent area with her nose, not exactly touching it, but almost. I prefer the nose over touching with a paw, since she is very active at source and wants to dig. 
Libby is just learning show me. Right now she is going through trying different reactions, so often when I ask to show me, she lays on top of it. It is easier with hides at head level or above, but I don't mind if she lies down, as long as she will point it out.

I over trained this with Greta, to the point where she had to see source, even though she would alert without seeing it, she would obsess until it was directly in front of her. This made it difficult with buried and water finds, so if you do teach the dog to point it out, be sure its scent only, not always visible.
Libby doesn't care if she can see it or not, but recently with shoreline hides, she wants to paw at the source. She has started dropping her ball when playing into the water to dive for it, and if playing in the yard in the water tank will do the same, then paw around, feel it and shove her head under. Not sure why she is connecting this with hr finds and not pawing at buried source.


----------



## julie allen

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Back from an excellent training. We have not done many building searches yet (with the pup) but today I had two unknowns in 3 large + 3 small rooms of an old factory full of boxes, trash, etc., as well as distracters (LE hides for cocaine, meth, and marijuana). Beau nailed his two cadaver hides and did not even give a COB around the drugs
> 
> Ok back to bark.............
> 
> If I have a dog that will hunt for several hours for one specific item to the exclusion of all else...to the point of ingoring complete dead bloated animals, live animals and everything else around him ...... I think that dog is hunting good. It is a discipline where you better have records demonstrating reliability and certifications as well..something not asked of a hunting dog. It is no big deal if a hunt dog misses his quarry* but it is if a detection dog of any sort misses or tells you it is what he's looking for when it ain't. So I am not sure how you can say these dogs are not hunting because of some trained indication.
> 
> We talked about the bark at training today and the folks I am working with this who are a NAPWDA trainer and master trainer feel that we can modularize the training and make the bark very specific to source as I voiced my concern about frustration barking.
> 
> I really don't have this concern on land as I think the frustration on water is the fact that the dog can't get to source fast enough. Even my old bark manic water dog does not bark on land.
> 
> They feel once that barkbarkbark frustration pattern is established it is very hard to break (yes, oh dear God, yes) but we have a clean slate who happens to be a very quick learner and the goal is to prevent it from starting in the first place.
> 
> I can say that my teammate had a problem with her dog launching off the boat the minute he hit odor and swimming to source and in one day, they pretty much helped her get it under control.
> 
> In the meanwhile, I think I will work on a touch command [completely separate once again-I pretty much have that with marker training anyway just for fu] ..not sure I need to use it each and every time but I, too, can see the benefit for scatter because once bones are out for awhile they can be very hard to see, particulary in our moist, acid, oak/hickory forest soils. So those who use touch, (show me), do you use it every time or just as needed? .
> 
> *well if he missess it all the time that would be a problem but I think a lot more is asked of a detection dog than a hunt dog in terms of reliability.


Nancy, I only use show me occasionally. Greta will point to the source or strongest scent area with her nose, not exactly touching it, but almost. I prefer the nose over touching with a paw, since she is very active at source and wants to dig. 
Libby is just learning show me. Right now she is going through trying different reactions, so often when I ask to show me, she lays on top of it. It is easier with hides at head level or above, but I don't mind if she lies down, as long as she will point it out.

I over trained this with Greta, to the point where she had to see source, even though she would alert without seeing it, she would obsess until it was directly in front of her. This made it difficult with buried and water finds, so if you do teach the dog to point it out, be sure its scent only, not always visible.
Libby doesn't care if she can see it or not, but recently with shoreline hides, she wants to paw at the source. She has started dropping her ball when playing into the water to dive for it, and if playing in the yard in the water tank will do the same, then paw around, feel it and shove her head under. Not sure why she is connecting this with hr finds and not pawing at buried source.


----------



## Jim Delbridge

Incessant barking in fringe scent is usually created by the handler rewarding away from source, too soon, or too late. Basically, the dog thinks it is supposed to bark in fringe. At this point, most handlers reinforce without realizing it making it more and more difficult to fix. This is where having a command such as "closer" can become a negation without commanding to leave scent. Think of it like the warm/cold game with "closer" implying the dog is cold.
With a historic dog that works the gamut, often times a depression can hold enough scent for the dog to judge it strong enough to resemble buried. A tool such as "show me" or "closer" forces the dog to investigate and be sure it has found the strongest scent diffusion point.
If all the dog works is tissue and greasy bones then life is usually pretty simple.

Jim


----------



## Jim Delbridge

julie allen said:


> One reason many people in sar, le, arson, etc, don't always use typical "hunting dogs", is because we have to have some amount of obedience. You don't only rely on the dogs instinct alone. It would be counter productive to find little missing johnny only to have your dog kill the kid before you get there lol.
> Wolves probably have the best hunting instincts there are, but we don't look to them to hunt for us, or perform tasks in sar, or look for narcotics. So while much of it is instinct, as the hunting for the scent, much of it is also obedience, as stop on command, waiting for reward, etc. The whole reason we developed breeds to work for us, so we can choose the good hunt instinct, and biddability. So there is no reason you are ruining the hunting skills of a dog by asking it to bark on the find, anymore than you are ruining the drives in a protection dog by asking it to bite and hold the prey.


 
Speaking from experience on wolves or more exact high percentage wolf-dogs. Mine, Worf (87%), watched me working my first two dogs one day and notice they were getting hot dog pieces for it. When I was putting them up, he nudged me to ask out. I went with it. He proceeded to show me where every source was (seven that day as we were basically doing alert drills) by sauntering along the route and tapping a paw at each one. He then came up to me and nudged my pocket with the hot dogs. I gave him one. Did I think I had another HRD dog? No. He was doing it for entertainment and not because he was drawn to the scent. He never barked in the 12+ years he was with me. He chuffed at me if he was upset with me. He led all my other dogs in some glorious howls. I could be walking along a bush line with him and he'd dart into a bush and come out with a rabbit or bird in his mouth with no sign that he was hunting. He'd leave me for a private meal at that point.

Wolves are awesome hunters, but have no reason to include the human in on it. The few times guests let him out on a walk-about and tried to chase him down, I would sigh, go indoors, grab a lawn chair and some hot dogs then park out next to the kennel with a hot dog waving casually in the air. He'd appear out of no where and sit next to me. I'd kick open the kennel gate without a word, he'd grab the hot dog gently out of my hand, and walk in as he snacked on it with a bounce to his walk as he'd enjoyed playing with more "stupid humans."

Never forget that dogs are the dumbed-down human-friendly version.............


Jim


----------



## Nancy Jocoy

Jim Delbridge said:


> Incessant barking in fringe scent is usually created by the handler rewarding away from source, too soon, or too late. Basically, the dog thinks it is supposed to bark in fringe. At this point, most handlers reinforce without realizing it making it more and more difficult to fix. This is where having a command such as "closer" can become a negation without commanding to leave scent. Think of it like the warm/cold game with "closer" implying the dog is cold.
> With a historic dog that works the gamut, often times a depression can hold enough scent for the dog to judge it strong enough to resemble buried. A tool such as "show me" or "closer" forces the dog to investigate and be sure it has found the strongest scent diffusion point.
> If all the dog works is tissue and greasy bones then life is usually pretty simple.
> 
> Jim


I think some of this is also encouraged by some of the trainers out there who encourage and build any action of the dog in response to odor on the water as a good thing. Just like folks who thump dogs to get them worked up on runaways. I think if the dog has the right drives you are more concerned about maintaining calm focus and control because they don't NEED to be pumped up to work. Just make the paycheck good.


----------



## julie allen

Jim Delbridge said:


> Speaking from experience on wolves or more exact high percentage wolf-dogs. Mine, Worf (87%), watched me working my first two dogs one day and notice they were getting hot dog pieces for it. When I was putting them up, he nudged me to ask out. I went with it. He proceeded to show me where every source was (seven that day as we were basically doing alert drills) by sauntering along the route and tapping a paw at each one. He then came up to me and nudged my pocket with the hot dogs. I gave him one. Did I think I had another HRD dog? No. He was doing it for entertainment and not because he was drawn to the scent. He never barked in the 12+ years he was with me. He chuffed at me if he was upset with me. He led all my other dogs in some glorious howls. I could be walking along a bush line with him and he'd dart into a bush and come out with a rabbit or bird in his mouth with no sign that he was hunting. He'd leave me for a private meal at that point.
> 
> Wolves are awesome hunters, but have no reason to include the human in on it. The few times guests let him out on a walk-about and tried to chase him down, I would sigh, go indoors, grab a lawn chair and some hot dogs then park out next to the kennel with a hot dog waving casually in the air. He'd appear out of no where and sit next to me. I'd kick open the kennel gate without a word, he'd grab the hot dog gently out of my hand, and walk in as he snacked on it with a bounce to his walk as he'd enjoyed playing with more "stupid humans."
> 
> Never forget that dogs are the dumbed-down human-friendly version.............
> 
> 
> Jim


Yes, brilliant and awesome at what they can do, but not the easiest to comply with our wishes. Though they could probably outperform most breeds, we need dogs who will work for us as well.


----------



## Nancy Jocoy

Jim Delbridge said:


> If all the dog works is tissue and greasy bones then life is usually pretty simple.
> 
> Jim


You mean, you mean, you mean....I am not prepared to work clandestine graves if I train on bloody gauze, tonail clippings, and hair? 

Seriously, I do not like working blood and am glad to see NAPWDA pulled it from use as a testing aid. All must be bone and soft tissue (though I think scattered dry bone *should* be an aid as it is a common search request)


----------

