# targeting issues.



## steven perez (Jun 25, 2013)

looking for some feedback. Recently, my dog has been going for the tip of the decoys sleeve. Something he has never done. Has anyone experience this before and if so how can this be corrected? Thanks in advance


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Video, please.


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

steven perez said:


> looking for some feedback. Recently, my dog has been going for the tip of the decoys sleeve. Something he has never done. Has anyone experience this before and if so how can this be corrected? Thanks in advance


 
The tip, as in the hand?


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## steven perez (Jun 25, 2013)

Yes, the hand... I will try and post a video.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

it is not likely that a dog with good targeting will just start to target the hand without something happening in training.

how was his targting before this? 

anything out of the ordinary happen shortly before this?
been using multiple decoys/helpers?

someone get in his head too bad for him to handle? do something too strong on him? hurt him mentally? or physically?

anyhow video would be great start. will give some good info on the situation.

what does your decoy/helper think is the issue, what does he say?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

steven perez said:


> looking for some feedback. Recently, my dog has been going for the tip of the decoys sleeve. Something he has never done. Has anyone experience this before and if so how can this be corrected? Thanks in advance


anyhow advice. 

do not let dog bite tip of sleeve, is a good start....

cover bottom of sleeve with plastic or soemthing else (cut up bucket,coffee can, cut up storage bin, taped on or whatever) so dog cant/wont want to bite it.

use decoy dog is comfortable with, that is skilled. go back to tie-out...(if neccessary). work on targeting correctly, and making sure dog is comfortable mentally while on the bite, and gets satisfaction from biting correctly.

get video of dog biting and being worked as wel, not just a 5 second vid of him targeting the hand, please. more info about what is going on.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Make sure the decoy is doing a proper presentation first and then back tie or have a back line and don't let him bite the end of the sleeve 
Also get a plastic flower pot to put on the end of the sleeve so he doesn't want to bite the end. A video will help


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## steven perez (Jun 25, 2013)

nothing out of the ordinary... Nothing we noticed. My decoy suggested the plastic at the end of the sleeve. However, he doesn't really understand why this is happening. Never was an issue before. Will upload video tomorrow


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## steven perez (Jun 25, 2013)

foundation wasn't the best...and his targeting has been pretty good. Center sleeve and full


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Also, I agree until you can think of a training plan, manage the behavior with not allowing him to bite the end with some sort of equipment. And stick to that. Don't do it sometimes and sometimes not. Don't try to "see" if the behavior is fixed. Also, in addition to a video. Just a question is it person specific. Meaning does he only do it on the decoy...if you give him a bite will he bite center? 

And just some food for thought. When a dog starts biting the end of a sleeve. My first thing I look for is the dog trying to avoid something, by having as a little to do with the sleeve as possible and still get satisfaction in biting. Next, Is somehow the end of the sleeve more rewarding for the dog to bite....generally my suspicions on why the dog is biting the end of a sleeve is they got the boogie man put in their head at sometime most likely while being frontal on the helper. Not always true. But enough with the spit balling a video will help.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

James Downey said:


> Also, I agree until you can think of a training plan, manage the behavior with not allowing him to bite the end with some sort of equipment. And stick to that. Don't do it sometimes and sometimes not. Don't try to "see" if the behavior is fixed. Also, in addition to a video. Just a question is it person specific. Meaning does he only do it on the decoy...if you give him a bite will he bite center?
> 
> And just some food for thought. When a dog starts biting the end of a sleeve. My first thing I look for is the dog trying to avoid something, by having as a little to do with the sleeve as possible and still get satisfaction in biting. Next, Is somehow the end of the sleeve more rewarding for the dog to bite....generally my suspicions on why the dog is biting the end of a sleeve is they got the boogie man put in their head at sometime most likely while being frontal on the helper. Not always true. But enough with the spit balling a video will help.



+1


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Strange, I have a similar problem with one of my dogs, I shall be interested to see a vid too.


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## Tim Lynam (Jun 12, 2009)

The training type in your bio indicates personal protection so I’m not sure why you consider it a problem but you do, so we’ll go from there. I assume we’re talking suit work.

You indicated it has started recently. Here are a few things to consider first:

Most decoys when bitten on the cuff will let their arm straighten and work the dog on the ground because of it. If the dog has recently sustained some kind of injury to it’s back, legs or hips it may find this more comfortable. Also, the tip of the sleeve after the decoy has sucked his hand up is thin and an easy, comfortable thing to bite if the dog has sustained a jaw injury. Depending on the dogs age, teething could also enter into the picture.

If the above checks out OK then this “Problem” is usually caused by the decoy. Even handlers have a part in it.

1.) Recent tug work or work where the decoy reaches for a stripped off sleeve. An unwitting decoy will target the dog to the hand reaching for the object and even run away when challenged while the dog is focusing on the hand.

2.) In suit work, the decoy can’t read the dog well enough to notice the dog is targeting the hand and change the target.

3.) The decoy is too slow to change the target from the hand to something else.

4.) The decoy has applied too much facial presence for the dogs training level and the dog responds by moving further away from the decoys face or body.

5.) The dog has been rewarded some how for biting the tip of the sleeve.

6.) The handler plays fetch games and continually tries to take the object from the dog’s mouth while the dog plays keep away or handler plays keep away from the dog. The dog develops the skill to target a quick moving hand, then when working with the decoy, does.

7.) Again, most decoys when bitten on the cuff will let their arm straighten and work the dog on the ground because of it. They then drag the dog around like some kind of tug game and there is little pressure applied. It’s more fun and less serious work for the dog.

The above causes can be tested for and the behavior extinguished by a competent decoy. The dog can be “broken” from doing it by being taught through repetition that it’s not a target worth going for unless it’s the only one available. ie through proper work from the decoy. I have personally never heard of a dog that NEVER bit there again once it started. Then again the type of work I decoyed for, Ring, PP and PSD it was not that big a deal as long as it wasn’t the dogs only or preferred bite target. Heck, some trainers trained to target the gun hand.


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## Stephen McLaughlin (Jul 8, 2013)

How old is your dog? I was/am experiencing the same type of issues and both training directors said we were moving too fast and it was a confidence issue more then anything. So we slowed down went back to a pillow/wedge and she only got a bite when she was in HIGH drive and charged up. This has really helped along with some controlled bites on the sleeve and only tugging and playing when shes in the middle with a nice bite, whenever she gets dumb and tries to bite someone screwy I say NO and we don't play until she engages properly. Hope this helps.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Tim Lynam said:


> The training type in your bio indicates personal protection so I’m not sure why you consider it a problem but you do, so we’ll go from there. I assume we’re talking suit work.
> 
> You indicated it has started recently. Here are a few things to consider first:
> 
> ...


This is competent advice - I would follow it.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Tim Lynam said:


> The training type in your bio indicates personal protection so I’m not sure why you consider it a problem but you do, so we’ll go from there. I assume we’re talking suit work.
> 
> You indicated it has started recently. Here are a few things to consider first:
> 
> ...



good stuff, although I personally thought he was talking about a sleeve, the suit never entered my mind on this one...


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## Tim Lynam (Jun 12, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> good stuff, although I personally thought he was talking about a sleeve, the suit never entered my mind on this one...


Yah Joby, it's confusing when they use Decoy sleeve as opposed to Helper sleeve... I was taught Helper work is sleeve work and decoy work is suit work to keep everybody on the same page. ie a decoy's sleeve is the sleeve of the suit. Since his work is in PP, I ass-u-me suit work... Sometimes I just have to go with what I can figure out. Flip a coin, anyone?


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## Paul Cipparone (Feb 13, 2011)

All is good info Tim , suit or sleeve. Here is what do ... Back tie to a wall or barrier of some kind that the dog cannot get to. Draw a half circle on the ground to meet at both ends or the radius of the back line. Using a " TUG" with handles at both ends, fold the tug to become a half circle. This is where good helper work begins. This is called " Post Work " I do this with all dogs that i train , before they ever see a decoy/helper. I proof the dogs targeting ,before ever seeing a decoy/helper. I bisect the half circle as many times as needed , from the let & right approaches with the " Tug " held at chest level.When the dog is consistent with the targeting @ the centre of the tug , i move my hands closer together , thus offering a smaller target area.If you have done your work correctly, the dog will hit centre .When this is 100% , i then move to a longer tie-out line , 20...> 30 feet from the wall, still employing the half circle , only allowing correct bites @ chest level. When this is 100 % do introduce a new helper/decoy. He/she must understand the concept, allow no deviation.
This may take months of work... such leads to perfection in the bite work, whether it is PP, PD, or Sport .
Tiago , worked for you ?
Paul C.


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## Paul Cipparone (Feb 13, 2011)

Forgot to mention , i repeat all this with a sleeve / suit.
Paul C.


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## steven perez (Jun 25, 2013)

Unfortunately, I am unable to up load the video. Sorry... I would like to thank you all for your comments and all the suggestions. I will take everything mentioned here, to my trainer. 

Just to clarify a few things... Yes, I mostly train for PP, but recently took interest in hardest hitting events held @ American Bulldog shows that I attend. That's what I do, show and work American Bulldogs. My dog has not been worked on a suit, only a cuff. My dog in question does not suffer from any physical injuries.
Thanks again... I will update after Wednesdays session and hopefully get video recorded in the right format...lol


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## steven perez (Jun 25, 2013)

any video on this method?


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## Tim Lynam (Jun 12, 2009)

Well Steve, I don't know if he has video but I still have deep tissue scars from catching many of his dogs! I'd say his methods work.:-o Among them he had 2 Mals, Falco and Franco that were just plain alligators with hair. Lucky me, I got to work them, well we'll call it take bites from them when I had been "decoying" for only 2 weeks... Convinced me that if I could take bites from them and not DIE, I could work any dog! Paul has always had hard hitting, hard biting dogs. Fun, Fun, Fun.

I'll add, I don't know anyone else who believes so strongly in foundation work. It shows in his dogs.

Good luck with your training!


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## steven perez (Jun 25, 2013)

Any opinions flat collar or harness?


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## Paul Cipparone (Feb 13, 2011)

Harness ! back tied , leash on collar to control what happens after the tug is released, not allowing dog to go to ground with tug.


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Paul Cipparone said:


> All is good info Tim , suit or sleeve. Here is what do ... Back tie to a wall or barrier of some kind that the dog cannot get to. Draw a half circle on the ground to meet at both ends or the radius of the back line. Using a " TUG" with handles at both ends, fold the tug to become a half circle. This is where good helper work begins. This is called " Post Work " I do this with all dogs that i train , before they ever see a decoy/helper. I proof the dogs targeting ,before ever seeing a decoy/helper. I bisect the half circle as many times as needed , from the let & right approaches with the " Tug " held at chest level.When the dog is consistent with the targeting @ the centre of the tug , i move my hands closer together , thus offering a smaller target area.If you have done your work correctly, the dog will hit centre .When this is 100% , i then move to a longer tie-out line , 20...> 30 feet from the wall, still employing the half circle , only allowing correct bites @ chest level. When this is 100 % do introduce a new helper/decoy. He/she must understand the concept, allow no deviation.
> This may take months of work... such leads to perfection in the bite work, whether it is PP, PD, or Sport .
> Tiago , worked for you ?
> Paul C.


 
Yes, sir! It is working very well... You shall see in a few months time.


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Tim Lynam said:


> I'll add, I don't know anyone else who believes so strongly in foundation work. It shows in his dogs.


I have to agree with this. The explanation and thought put into foundation work is, let me put this lightly, very thorough and methodical. 


Regards


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

steven perez said:


> Unfortunately, I am unable to up load the video. Sorry... I would like to thank you all for your comments and all the suggestions.


Youtube will pretty much convert most video formats...


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## Frank Hutto (Dec 12, 2007)

Like many of the posts before, one of the things you'll have to determine is "why" it's happening. Is it nervousness causing him to bite the part furthest away from the helper? Or is it improper targeting? Etc. That will play a role in what you do. Anyway, below is how I approached it with one of my dogs.

This particular mali was strong, confident with a lot of bite drive. He had a good foundation and always bit full and center. Then at about 18 months or two years he starting gripping the handle on the escape bite or if you gave him a bite out of a bark & hold. It was still full and uncompromising, but too far towards the handle for my liking. It started on less experienced helpers when the presentation was off, however, it filtered over to experienced helpers too. He did it because that's the spot where many helpers generate the initial pop of the sleeve, so he zeroed in on where the movement generated. 

So here's what I did:

First, I let him come in for a bark & hold. Then when I would present the sleeve, I'd purposely give him the handle/butt-end for him to bite. Imagine the poorest sleeve presentation where the handle/butt-end of the sleeve is what you're trying to get the dog to bite, and that's what I was doing (be careful how you do that because the dog could break a tooth if you're careless). I wanted the dog to have a very clear picture that the handle is the area I didn't want him to bite, so that's why I wanted him to be biting as far down the handle as physically possible. 

Anyway, as soon as he'd bite it, I'd say "No," slip the sleeve, and then make him out it. Biting that portion of the sleeve isn't very pleasant, he didn't get to fight, and he didn't get to possess the sleeve, so biting the handle didn't get him anything positive. At times I would have him barking while I'd be holding the sleeve in front of him like a tug and "feed" him the center, so he knew where the bite had to be in order to win. Once it clicked he began trying to go around the handle to grip the bite bar even when I gave him the crappy sleeve presentation. When he began doing that, I started to give him good sleeve presentations again. If he bit toward the handle again, he'd get the same no, slip, and out treatment. If he bit center, he got praise, a big fight, and he got to possess it. 

Once he was consistently hitting the sleeve center again with a normal presentation, I took it a step further to proof it. I would pop the sleeve normal in that the bite bar was parallel to the ground, but I would sometimes try and sucker him into biting the handle by bringing the sleeve over so the handle would be a temptation. I also tried to sucker him into biting the elbow in the same fashion, so he didn't begin overcompensating towards the elbow to avoid the handle. When he fell for it, he'd get the no, slip, out again; though, I also gave him the opportunity to correct himself on the grip if he was close at times. I didn't do the proofing for long - just enough to make sure he got the point, but not enough to where he would be too consumed with "where will the sleeve be?" instead of his guarding.

That did the trick for him. It really didn't take that long either. I'd guess maybe 3-4 sessions before I started the proofing stuff. Of course the fact that his foundation was correct played a role there. I also did maybe 3-4 sessions doing the proofing stuff. One other thing I'll mention is I used my harddog chomp sleeve doing all of this. Not making a sales pitch on it because it wasn't necessary, but I think the sleeve's design worked with the approach I took to quickly and clearly communicate to the dog where he needed to bite to win. I also kept him on it for about a month after that, just as insurance. Once it was all said and done it was so ingrained in him to bite center that more than once when he misjudged on an escape bite and hit the handle or elbow, by the time the helper went to lock up he'd be center haha. This was on a normal trial arm too. 

Again, the approach depends on the cause of the issue, age/experience of the dog, etc., but hopefully this helped some. Happy training.


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## steven perez (Jun 25, 2013)

I would like to thank everyone for their feedback and the tips provided. I shared the information provided to my handler/decoy. Seems he was also searching for answers. He admitted that it was a problem he created due to timing and the way he presented the cuff. He insured me he would fix the problem. He suggested that he would use a PVC pipe that he would mount on the tip of the cuff. So first session with this rigged cuff had me completely frustrated because even with the PVC , my dog would still go for the tip. This had me very concerned because my dog slam the pipe and I was afraid my dog would break his teeth. He did not care it didn't phase him. Than. Second session I was a little hesitant on using the PVC. We followed trough and man I was surprised. 9 out 1o bites were dead center


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

steven perez said:


> I would like to thank everyone for their feedback and the tips provided. I shared the information provided to my handler/decoy. Seems he was also searching for answers. He admitted that it was a problem he created due to timing and the way he presented the cuff. He insured me he would fix the problem. He suggested that he would use a PVC pipe that he would mount on the tip of the cuff. So first session with this rigged cuff had me completely frustrated because even with the PVC , my dog would still go for the tip. This had me very concerned because my dog slam the pipe and I was afraid my dog would break his teeth. He did not care it didn't phase him. Than. Second session I was a little hesitant on using the PVC. We followed trough and man I was surprised. 9 out 1o bites were dead center


lol...9 out of 10 is good, but why was dog allowed to "slam" into the pvc? he could have broken his teeth, you are right in being worried.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Paul Cipparone said:


> Harness ! back tied , leash on collar to control what happens after the tug is released, not allowing dog to go to ground with tug.


I just noticed this post and wanted to add. When I do work on a harness I like to use a 4 ft lead on the harness and a 6 ft on a prong collar. Keeps the two leads at a fairly equal length and lets you guide or correct without getting the lines all tangled up.


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## Paul Cipparone (Feb 13, 2011)

Thomas i prefer o use a " solid back tie " , eliminates errors, " inconsistent handling " un - needed corrections , easier for the helper to rely on constant distances , one less leash to handle .


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## lannie dulin (Sep 4, 2012)

Paul Cipparone said:


> Harness ! back tied , leash on collar to control what happens after the tug is released, not allowing dog to go to ground with tug.


How do you prevent the dog taking it to ground if it's on a back tie? If I'm handling her I can get her moving and carry it, but on a back tie she will take it to ground as soon as she wins, for sure.


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## Paul Cipparone (Feb 13, 2011)

Lannie the leash on the collar prevents this from happening. If the dog is going to go to ground at the release of the tug , you would have the helper keep working the dog , release the back-tie from the harness & run with the dog ,you may have to grab the tug & maintain grip until she understands what you want her to do. You can periodically play more with the tug if you feel she is going to drop it before the out command. It may be wise to sit in a chair with the dog beside you & teach the out/ take it exercise , & reward for grabbing , holding & release of the tug.You must always consider if you need to go back a few steps to teach an intermediate exercise in order to reach your intended goal.
Paul C.


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## steven perez (Jun 25, 2013)

Joby Becker said:


> lol...9 out of 10 is good, but why was dog allowed to "slam" into the pvc? he could have broken his teeth, you are right in being worried.


not sure what's funny but ok...lol 
We didn't purposely let him, it just happened. The point is that he corrected himself and is staying center.


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## Mario Fernandez (Jun 21, 2008)

Steven:

I would buy some bite helpers, plastic guards you can strap to any sleeve, way better than those sleeve covers that have the plastic guards on as you are limited to one certain sleeve. The bite helpers you can put on any sleeve. 

http://www.k-9dynamics.com/bite-development/bite-helpers/cat_82.html

Look in the Schweikert catalog, they have some bite helpers with jute cover so it matches the sleeve, so dogs don't have a visual of the bite helper.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

steven perez said:


> not sure what's funny but ok...lol
> We didn't purposely let him, it just happened. The point is that he corrected himself and is staying center.



did you follow the other advice in the thread about restraining dog and having decoy put dog where he is supposed to be?


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## steven perez (Jun 25, 2013)

Mario Fernandez said:


> Steven:
> 
> I would buy some bite helpers, plastic guards you can strap to any sleeve, way better than those sleeve covers that have the plastic guards on as you are limited to one certain sleeve. The bite helpers you can put on any sleeve.
> 
> ...


 
Thanks... Gonna check it out


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## steven perez (Jun 25, 2013)

Joby Becker said:


> did you follow the other advice in the thread about restraining dog and having decoy put dog where he is supposed to be?


 
I did... With the rigged cuff and then a synthetic cuff.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

steven perez said:


> Thanks... Gonna check it out


Save yourself 29.95 and go to the DIY store, buy a bucket and some tiedowns and make it yourself in the correct size with 2 straps instead of one. Its the same material and will save you money. 

On another note, if the dog starts targeting the wrong area wouldn't it just be easier to start targetting him hands on by grabbing the scruff and putting him on the bite instead of letting him pick his own place to bite over and over? 9 times out of 10? Its a start. Wouldn't be happy until I had a 10/10 solution tho. 

I am going to say something that might not sound very nice but its something I know for a fact. People are to quick to let the dog do the long bites and let the dog figure things out for themselves or pick their own places on a bite. Short work! Keep it close and in contact, support the dog, just because the dog knows the long work doesn't mean its all he should do. Work at a short distance, it gives you time to intervene when there are issues and it gives you opportunity to rewards and praise and build.


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