# Dog learning in stress, corrections, conflict, compulsion...



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Great topic for the no conflict zone 

Some "touchy" subjects have been talked about here lately. The fine line, abuse, corrections, compulsion, force...etc..etc.. Some opinions have been expressed, here is what appears to be the "other side of the coin".

Thought I would share a few videos I found of some experienced trainers, training a high drive resilient puppy, using methods that although may not be everyone's cup of tea (might even piss some people off) or cutting edge for getting 100% precision, but when I watched them, they just seemed to gel with the type of dog, and the overall picture of what the dog is expected to do, and grow up to be.. 

Many of the things done stress the dog, and some actually build drive..it is compulsion, correction in simple form, although it appears to me that the puppy is showing as much or more compulsion to work, as the trainers are in their methods...

To some this may look abusive, but for me it appears to be very effective training, of a highly resilient dog with tons of drive with stress... I would also argue that this type of training, for this dog, is bringing it more to its full potential for what they want out of it, and not diminishing the spirit or the drive of the dog at all. Would this dog reach its full potential if trained in a drastically different way? maybe, maybe not...but it appears it will with these methods....and even with what may be considered harsh treatment I doubt the dog will be scared of its owner...

Do the videos make you think the people dont know what they are doing, or that they do not love the dog, or do not expect the best from it, do you feel sorry for the dog? 

I don't.....not sure why, like I said, it just look like it all fits perfectly together for me, the dog, the trainers, and what they want out of both.

I look forward to seeing more video of the dogs progression.

The puppy is female out of Boris, whom I assume underwent much of the same style of training...and appears to be a working "machine" of a dog.

cute puppy 7 weeks, first time training for what I assume is the box revier. (no corrections)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c84NXmbPgoQ&feature=plcp

cute puppy at 5 months, learning the box revier, learning not to bite the box and some self control.. (corrections)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrQ5lpuclvU&feature=plcp

cute puppy learning the small object hold/retrive, heeling and bike at 5 months.. (corrections)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdiaMjXgkis&feature=plcp

cute 5 month old puppy biting and grip learning (no corrections)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YN6vgEBN0s0&feature=plcp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwYBdk2JRxo&feature=plcp

older cute pup learning self control, heeling, targeting and grip (corrections)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUwBdIF29Gs&feature=plcp

older cute puppy stick attack and grip training (no corrections)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OktkwdiSFj0&feature=plcp


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Well the handler aggression is not really a turn on for me....To me this the exact opposite of a protection dog.... The purpose of protection training is to teach the dog to protect you, not inflict harm on you.

I see no harmony be the dogs and the handler. They are not working together.... It's a slave/master relationship. 

The first video, I see a very reactive puppy....when the cheerleading squad is out there the dog is crazy....pom poms go away....there's no dog. 

Video heeling the dog to the box? Do not know what the dog learned from all corrections?....except that it has to endure a series of corrrections to get to the box....and that biting the handler maybe a viable option for escape. I did not see any behavior created worth anything....the dog has also learned the box is a safe place....It's almost a no win situation for the dog, the dog wants to get to the box, because it's safe there. The dogs entire demeanor....all the stress signals go away on the box.


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

Dang, you did right putting this in the conflict free zone. ha!

It depends on the dog. A dog like that gets out of his mind in their desire to bite the decoy. Teaching them to control themselves when a decoy is out there can be ugly looking at first. There are other ways to do it, but if it works for that particular dog, how can we argue with success? As has been said, there is a fine line between corrections and abuse. Everyone has their own line.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

James Downey said:


> Well the handler aggression is not really a turn on for me....To me this the exact opposite of a protection dog.... The purpose of protection training is to teach the dog to protect you, not inflict harm on you.
> 
> I see no harmony be the dogs and the handler. They are not working together.... It's a slave/master relationship.
> 
> ...


that is one way to look at it...


They do not heel the dog to the box in competition, they release the dog and he rockets out to search the woods for the box, and is supposed to bark the alert that he found it, and keep barking until the handler gets there to heel him off...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztj1uFKbF-A

I saw it completely differently..

In the small puppy box vid (first video), I saw it as they are making attraction to the box, building drive for the box...and I am pretty sure that was done on multiple occasions....

In competition, biting of the box is not allowed, so the dog is trained (by some) to stand on the box....and is never allowed to bite the box in training ideally...

The use of electrified boxes is sometimes used to dissuade the dogs from biting the box...

I saw it as the dog wanting to get to the box to bite it...which was evident to me, as soon as he got close enough to it and tried to bite it when he thought he could...I also saw, when leash pressure is relented, the dog immediately tries to grab the box... at the .50 mark, and at the 1:11 mark, and tries to bite it again at the 1:50 mark, and was trying to pull back to the box when they were leaving it...

there is no doubt in my mind that the dog, if allowed, would have bitten the box at any point in the 5 months video, from start to finish of the video.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Just when u think u know someone, Joby posting in the gay zone......you've changed man. 


You no longer exist.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

addition to James' response. forgot to address the safe zone issue.

I can agree also that there is a safe zone component to the video as well, so multiple things are being taught. not to bite the box, to go to the box, and bark contiously while on the box (corrections building the bark)...

to say that you see no behavior created that is worth anything is an oxymoron, if it is learning the box is a safe place like you pointed out.

anyhow here is more completed dog, by the same trainers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEXzVubBgQ0&feature=plcp


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

a different trainer, different dog, building drive for the box in a 6 month old puppy, not putting any type of control on it, no safe zone, nothing like the other video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdaFUKYH7wo&feature=plcp

Just look at the drive level for the box itself, imagine that is your dog, and you wanted to train the dog to go out and find the box, in the woods, away from you, but NOT to bite the box when he finds it, AND you did not want to use corrections or compulsion.... 

riddle me this, how would you do it?


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

Joby Becker said:


> a different trainer, different dog, building drive for the box in a 6 month old puppy, not putting any type of control on it, no safe zone, nothing like the other video.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdaFUKYH7wo&feature=plcp
> 
> ...


I am not going to pretend that I know KNPV because I am only vaguely familiar with that exercise. BUT, my knee jerk answer is back chaining. Teach the alert response then work up to the full search. That being said, I imagine there is a reason they teach it the way they do in those videos.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

My opinion: if you won't get them crazy and allow him to bite the object as a young puppy (not in this vid, but have seen it)you won't be needing all the corrections at 5 mo ;-) imo this is auseless waste of time and energy.
But on the other hand: wont work a dog that young, and our preference are in another character structure.

Eta: stress, corrections, compulsion, praising, rewards all have their place in training, but the vids you're showed aint my cup of tea.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> My opinion: if you won't get them crazy and allow him to bite the object as a young puppy (not in this vid, but have seen it)you won't be needing all the corrections at 5 mo ;-) imo this is auseless waste of time and energy.
> But on the other hand: wont work a dog that young, and our preference are in another character structure.


that makes perfect sense...as well, thank you for the input


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Brett Bowen said:


> I am not going to pretend that I know KNPV because I am only vaguely familiar with that exercise. BUT, my knee jerk answer is back chaining. Teach the alert response then work up to the full search.


You just won the fridge, Brett!

That's the way we teach it ;-)


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Brett Bowen said:


> I am not going to pretend that I know KNPV because I am only vaguely familiar with that exercise. BUT, my knee jerk answer is back chaining. Teach the alert response then work up to the full search. That being said, I imagine there is a reason they teach it the way they do in those videos.


yes Brett good answer on how to go about training it, seems like a great way to teach it, but not really an answer to the question of training it without correction, if the drive for the box was already there, which is apparently how some people also train it. 

I am not implying that I think that this type of training in the vids, is what I would do if I trained for this type of thing, or that I think it is the most efficient way of training, just was pointing out methods that some people use that other people do not necessarily agree with or approve of more than anything, to see how they felt about it, due to the recent discussions on here. A study of emotions, if you will, I was not really emotionally effected by the videos.


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> You just won the fridge, Brett!
> 
> That's the way we teach it ;-)


Woot Woot! 

Instead of a fridge, how about one of those pups? :-D



Joby Becker said:


> yes Brett good answer on how to go about training it, seems like a great way to teach it, but not really an answer to the question of training it without correction, if the drive for the box was already there, which is apparently how some people also train it.
> 
> I am not implying that I think that this type of training in the vids, is what I would do if I trained for this type of thing, or that I think it is the most efficient way of training, just was pointing out methods that some people use that other people do not necessarily agree with or approve of more than anything, to see how they felt about it, due to the recent discussions on here. A study of emotions, if you will, I was not really emotionally effected by the videos.


hmm. If that kind of bats**t crazy drive for the box was there already, I think you'd be hard pressed to not use corrections on that. But, if I was to try without corrections, I would try to redirect that drive into something that puts them in higher drive, sleeve, something. Then start over at a calm sit next to the box then reward, then work up from there. As a plan B maybe if they go into drive over the box they don't get to play that game. But both of those are withholding the reward which is a form of correction, so it depends on what your definition of a correction is in my book. That being said, I think very quickly most people would get to the point of a prong or electric to get the job done.

As far as emotions go, eh not so much, I don't see anything way over the top. If the dog was shutting down then yeah I have an issue. Nice strong dog, seems capable of handling that stress. I don't think they are going to hurt the dog long term with the amount of drive it has. I would have liked to seen them give the dog more rewards and let him escape the stress. Heeling might be too much for that dog at that time, my opinion. Make him sit, give him a bite and work up. If he can't do basic positions, he sure isn't going to heel.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Obviously that particular dog wasn't deterred by the corrections. The only effect I can see in that method with that dog is that it brought out a lot of "handler aggression". I've said befoer that handler aggression is created in the vast majority of dog. I call the real ones the 1% dogs for lack of actual stats. How much of that could be avoided with different methods?? Just a waste of time as Selina said and not my cup of tea as James said. 
How did the pup become that crazy for the box? Doubtful if it's a natural behavior. That's a training issue that was let out of control IMHO!


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I dont' know how you think that the puppy in video 2 was learning anything other than try to bite two people for the pain they were inflicting. Until you see the finished product you really can't rate the method. I'm still trying to figure out the need for a double line correction on a walk to the box. Ridiculous. Where's the self control in trying to bite two handlers?

T


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I'm not going to comment on anything in the videos except to say that regardless if people feel good, bad, or indifferent about her or her training, this young dog has always interested me for some reason.


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## Lisa Radcliffe (Jun 9, 2011)

Joby Becker said:


> Great topic for the no conflict zone
> 
> Some "touchy" subjects have been talked about here lately. The fine line, abuse, corrections, compulsion, force...etc..etc.. Some opinions have been expressed, here is what appears to be the "other side of the coin".
> 
> ...


The methods of a lot of KNPV-people in Holland don't show a lot of "understanding the dogs mind" They either work often by the rule "it goes on/ survives or it breaks" it is clear that the dogs who survive this way of training often are high drive, though dogs who survive a harsh way of training and which do not take a "soft or medium training" serious enough to have respect for the handlers- which makes them going for the "alpha position" " I doubt the dog will be scared of his owner...." I agree with you! I only watched the heeling and targeting video...


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Lisa Radcliffe said:


> The methods of a lot of KNPV-people in Holland don't show a lot of "understanding the dogs mind" They either work often by the rule "it goes on/ survives or it breaks" it is clear that the dogs who survive this way of training often are high drive, though dogs who survive a harsh way of training ...


Ha ha, well you'd have to figure at some point my foolish sense of humor would break through on that point with the "it" reference. I reread what you wrote when I pulled this clip up and found the relationship between it, your post, and all that (what appeared to be) angry yelling going on with Betsie a rather ridiculous overlay.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3aYZSAyEuM


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## John Simpson (Jul 17, 2011)

Ummm....I guess it's hard to argue with the end results the dutch get with their dogs & as previously posted weaker dogs are washed out early. I've never been to Holland in person to view their training, but is this common practice to teach exercises with young dogs this way? I did read an article in the WorldofK9 magazine recently were Dick Staal said he give's KNPV seminars showing his more positive teaching methods but it was hard to change old ways and younger trainers were more willing to try new methods. 

I can't say I'd enjoy my training as much if I was so conflict based from the outset. Don't get me wrong if the dog is not responding as directed to what he knows how to do a correction will be forthcoming, but to constantly yank on the prong to get compliance in the learning phase...

Would be interesting to see him do this with a mature dog who when push comes to shove will more that happily fight back & go one-on-one.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Yeah i want to see a vid on that


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Joby, 

I will answer your emotional questions....First a correction to erase behavior is one thing, but to actually to use it to induce stress, caused by pain....That's not fair. Not for points, titles, or "winning". That dog was paniced off the box. The dog wanted it to stop. The dog was defintly conflicted. As I said before the box....is nothing more than a placement box. I am not sure why biting the box would be an issue? For those handlers, the dog placed more trust, and confidence in a box that it did thier handler....it literally wanted to be with the box more than it's handlers. 

AS for do the handlers "Love" thier dog. First, I believe love is an action, and not an emotion. Love is not a warm fuzzy feeling in your stomach. or a flutter of your heart......So for me. Love is looking out for the other parties interests and not your own. So what they feel about a dog to me is irrelevant. What they are doing to the dog, is not an act of love. I could not do what they are doing and claim I love dogs.

Do I feel sorry for the dog....I guess I do. They never had a choice. And I was kind of rooting for the dog to bite them....I guess a dog or two before that one ruined it, because those guys look like they have induced that kind of behavior in a dog before and are very versed how to handle it. Weird, I have owned 2 dogs now that I am sure could have had no problem chewing me up. Both bit me out of fustration when they were young and I never ever "corrected" them or beat the shit out of them, or had a come to jesus meeting....I just kept builiding relationship, both of them now through that....would never fathom biting me. 

I also am aware this type of training is very alive in the dog world. I sometimes still crusade about how I feel about it. But for the most part, I think the answer is I will continue to seek training that minimizes force, and promotes rewards....and hopefully one day we will have some success on a scale grand enough that their will be others we will help, because they beared witness to the victories over our diffculties...without the use of force.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Instead of creating a desire to kill the box why not teach a "place" with the box then build the bark and defense from there. Make the box a means to and end. Getting to the box should be a path to the reward. 
Their methods obviously work but why go backwards after building the obsession for the dog to bite the box!
Now you have to break it from that incorrect behavior.


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

I would say that I agree with the don't train a behavior if you don't want it later. Second I think the dog got a lot of lessons on what not to do but not to much on what to do. imho not enough reward for the proper behavior. Also the same command is given for heel next to me on the left side and walk next to the bike. I think the pup is tough. Question when you give a pup that much compulsion what do you do to it when it is 1 yr old and hard as hell.?


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Timothy Saunders said:


> Question when you give a pup that much compulsion what do you do to it when it is 1 yr old and hard as hell.?


Sell it as the biggest badass in the world to some schmuck in the US


Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> Sell it as the biggest badass in the world to some schmuck in the US
> 
> 
> Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk



That's to easy. It's done all the time! :lol:


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## Alison Grubb (Nov 18, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> Instead of creating a desire to kill the box why not teach a "place" with the box then build the bark and defense from there. Make the box a means to and end. Getting to the box should be a path to the reward.
> Their methods obviously work but why go backwards after building the obsession for the dog to bite the box!
> Now you have to break it from that incorrect behavior.


Bob's post has reminded me of a video I saw months ago of Marc Villain doing some positive foundation work with a young pup (think 8-12 weeks) on the object guard. He was able to get some good distance away from the pup maintaining contact to the milk crate and I think the barking was pretty good as well. Seems to me like you could substitute the box for the milk crate and use the same basic foundation while tweaking it to fit the KNVP exercise. If you wanted to go that route. Obviously I have no experience with KNPV, but it's just a thought.

I'm looking for the video now, if I find it I will post it here.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I'm just curious, and bear with me as I rephrase the question my uncle asked my dad when he said, "and why are we shooting at the cops?" Ok, so back to this, so why are we looking for this box in the woods anyway? In my woods, there's probably no box to find but from time to time you'll find a good moose shed, hoof, rib, etc. 

I mean c'mon, a search for a blood stained knife, or blood soaked ill filling glove I get but a box with the biting temptation of Cap'n Crunch? Just what might be found in this box? The Holy Grail perhaps?

Alright, stewpid questions and deliberate mischief aside, in the real world what does this box represent? An article of sort that requires an announcement of such? If so, at what point does that indication transfer over to something a bit more meaningful? I am sure there's something to it I am not understanding but watching the exercise is a bit like watching the BH in SchH. "Object found", bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark (mumbling) bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark bark (wide grin) ... and that's why they call me Tater Salad.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Joby (and others)
i can understand posting a vid of some "experienced" trainers working a tuff pup, but who gives a crap if the pup can handle their SHIT and "work thru it" ??
- i do NOT think training operantly will ever ruin a strong driven dog pup or any other animal.
- i read somewhere but can't remember that a ME dog, Jackson, i believe, broke a decoy's arm in two places ... i did see a clip of that dog ... i would call it HARD but doubt it ever had anything close to that kind of crap laid on it as a pup, altho i listened to an interview when he mentioned how it needed a VERY hard correction from time to time

for all the dutch/knpv admirers
- just because they are "dutch" or KNPV doesn't make it right and the ends don't justify the means in my book ](*,)
- i see it this way....
- if they can turn out hard dogs using that shit, they could probably turn out even HARDER dogs doing it "right",,,,,and yes i think OC is the RIGHT way to train both pups and "dogs"
- there IS compulsion used in OC for godssakes ... it ain't the pussy way to train dogs as some people still think ... but it comes LATER ,,, not earlier in the training process](*,)

JMO of course; which doesn't matter in the end


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Nicole Stark said:


> I'm just curious, and bear with me as I rephrase the question my uncle asked my dad when he said, "and why are we shooting at the cops?" Ok, so back to this, so why are we looking for this box in the woods.....


 www.schutzhund-training.net/rules/knpvrules.html

Please see category 3 exercise A 

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

rick smith said:


> Joby (and others)
> i can understand posting a vid of some "experienced" trainers working a tuff pup, but who gives a crap if the pup can handle their SHIT and "work thru it" ??
> - i do NOT think training operantly will ever ruin a strong driven dog pup or any other animal.
> - i read somewhere but can't remember that a ME dog, Jackson, i believe, broke a decoy's arm in two places ... i did see a clip of that dog ... i would call it HARD but doubt it ever had anything close to that kind of crap laid on it as a pup, altho i listened to an interview when he mentioned how it needed a VERY hard correction from time to time
> ...


Nice post.Well said.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Nicole Stark said:


> I'm just curious, and bear with me as I rephrase the question my uncle asked my dad when he said, "and why are we shooting at the cops?" Ok, so back to this, so why are we looking for this box in the woods anyway? In my woods, there's probably no box to find but from time to time you'll find a good moose shed, hoof, rib, etc.


Actually the excercise is originally: find a object with human scent. The box is used in KNPV ph1 certificate, other object may be used. Every year the knpv board decides which object must be used in the ph1 trial. Last few years it is the box, but als can be a chair, rifle, breaking armor ( forget the right translation, what burglars use to open a door).

We train for everything, by backchaining the excersize. Starting to put dog on the box let it stand on it, on command, learn to bark on command, than combine it. Than send the dog from little distance, make distance bigger. All in sight or open field. Than box in the woods, make a trial. Learn the dog to use its nose to come to the object etc.

Object guard is also a backchained excersize for us.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

I don’t know Joby I get confused just watching the videos never mind being the dog? There is lots I don’t know. I defiantly aint anti prong but I think they made their own head ache here from breeding to rising? 
I don’t think the finished dog will be the kind of whole package I would want when done. Maybe good for points in the sport of their choice but I don’t know anything about that anyway. 
A while back someone on here posted his thoughts on a swat dog and how a good one was not the kind of dog many thought they were. What he said made sense to me and from the very little I seen I agreed.
Can a dog like this raised like this really be good for much else other than its sport? This is like a tough guy dog or something.


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## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> We train for everything, by backchaining the excersize. Starting to put dog on the box let it stand on it, on command, learn to bark on command, than combine it. Than send the dog from little distance, make distance bigger. All in sight or open field. Than box in the woods, make a trial. Learn the dog to use its nose to come to the object etc.
> 
> Object guard is also a backchained excersize for us.


I think this is definately a clearer way to communicate or teach the dog how to control itself...

I'm still a novice, but this sounds similar to how I was taught to break down the hold and bark to smaller exercises on a tie out. We'd tie the dog out, decoy would approach and stay just outside of the circle, handler tells dog "sitz-gib laut", fist time the dog learns to control its self by sitting and barking it gets a bite, and then we build off of that.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Actually the excercise is originally: find a object with human scent. The box is used in KNPV ph1 certificate, other object may be used. Every year the knpv board decides which object must be used in the ph1 trial. Last few years it is the box, but als can be a chair, rifle, breaking armor ( forget the right translation, what burglars use to open a door).
> 
> We train for everything, by backchaining the excersize. Starting to put dog on the box let it stand on it, on command, learn to bark on command, than combine it. Than send the dog from little distance, make distance bigger. All in sight or open field. Than box in the woods, make a trial. Learn the dog to use its nose to come to the object etc.
> 
> Object guard is also a backchained excersize for us.


Thanks Selena, I've never seen anything but a box used but your explanation clarifies that for me very well. Out of curiosity about 18 months ago I started the basics on this exercise with my mastiff. I really wasn't sure how it's typically taught over there but I found your explanation satisfying as that's exactly how I did it.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Chris McDonald said:


> Can a dog like this raised like this really be good for much else other than its sport? This is like a tough guy dog or something.


This is a question that came up for me as well. I don't remember the owners name but tried to make contact with him via YouTube as I was interested in seeing if I could get hold of her and work with her here for myself. That's unlikely but if I ever did, I'd probably let her run for about 18-20 months before I'd have any interest in doing anything serious with her. I think she'd be interesting to work with. Challenging, I expect.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Too much of this....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c84NXmbPgoQ&feature=plcp


You get this....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrQ5lpuclvU&feature=plcp


Too much of a good thing is well,... too much...


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Howard Knauf said:


> Too much of this....
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c84NXmbPgoQ&feature=plcp
> 
> ...


And you get a dog that's reactive to it's enviorment. And not proactive. The puppy has learned that if thier is nothing jumping it's nuts around, no reward is coming. So might as well sit and be quiet. And the older dog on the box....no barky, barky...unless pinchy, pinchy. And then it sucks anyway. 

whether I think the method is good or not, right or wrong....Those results are not very impressive to me. I am not sure what "box" drive the dog had. The dog also had good bite my own handler drive. It's not really drive, it's how the dog tries to safe. Drive to work for me has to be pure in it's origin....it has to come from within the dog. All that drive, came from his enviorment and his circustance. And the behaviors...the dog easily stops barking, and stands on a box....WOW! 

And also, there is one thing we do not know yet.... Take the collars off. I bet a dollar to a donut, you have a completely different dog.


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## John Simpson (Jul 17, 2011)

I find myself going back & re-watching those vids, as much as I dislike them, to see what I have missed, maybe their is some hidden gem in there that I'm not seeing. All this has done has made me find that not only his actions but now his whininy voice lower what little opinion of him in the 1st place even more. 

To me the 5-6 month old stuff is not really training at all. 

Clearly he was bullied & abused as a child.......

I'll stop my rant there.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Howard Knauf said:


> Too much of this....
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c84NXmbPgoQ&feature=plcp
> 
> ...


Absolute retarded jerk offs.....jerk, pat, jerk .....

Couldnt watch the whole thing,..anyone got the contact détails of those idiots so i'm not calling them jerk offs behind their back.

Proves what people call tough dogs that 'come up the leash at you' is nothing more than a symptom of shit training.

Gutless turd losers.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Lets not forget that this is a "conflict free zone". 
Critique and disagree with what we see without name calling...no matter how easy or well earned we may think that may be.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Genuinely did not check the forum, my apologies, please delete, i will post a request for the trainers contact détails in a new thread if required.

Someone must know the trainer i would genuinely like to understand their reasoning as i see a lot of unecessary and imo bad training, and would like to express that to them and not one a forum where they are unawares.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> a different trainer, different dog, building drive for the box in a 6 month old puppy, not putting any type of control on it, no safe zone, nothing like the other video.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdaFUKYH7wo&feature=plcp
> 
> ...


Joby. Do your dogs often bite peopel when they do sertch n rescue  
You can train it almost the same way.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

andreas broqvist said:


> Joby. Do your dogs often bite peopel when they do sertch n rescue
> You can train it almost the same way.



When I was in SAR we taught a bark alert. When I moved to Schutzhund with that dog the B&H was almost ready.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Yes its not that hard. If you do the traning in smal steps you can teatch most things posetiv without the dog going bakistic.

I do not do KNPV but just of the top of ny head I wuld lern the dog that the box is somthing he shuld stand on. Then gard. Then find close by and then move it farther away. Al with wery mutch posetiv rewards to build drive.

I do not se the point in forcing a task like that. Ofcaus if the dog redirects to bite the box you nead to corect him and maby change somthing. But the second video with 2 guys handling the dog and kicking his ass seems realy uncald for. 

We have sertch in the Woods with B&H, and also object sertch. 5 objects in ouer swedish protection sport and none of them is teatch that way. 

Ofcaus you nead to corect a dog when he does wrong. But it helps aloot when the dogs knows what to do before


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Thanks for the responses. 

One of the things that stuck out was someone saying they did not care for the handler aggression in that pup..

If the pup is being handled and worked in that fashion, I would EXPECT the dog to express some degree of aggression, to "fight back" , what is the alternative?

it melts away, breaks down ?

Howard the second video you posted is now private, missed it.

I do not train dogs like that, although I have used those types of corrections in the past for dogs on occasion that could not control themselves, usually older dogs that I did not raise, it seemed to me that the dog handled itself well under the methods...and therefore it did not pull at my heart strings as much as it might have for some people.

As with any training methods, the conversation took a turn as to why it is "needed". My guess it is not "needed" at all, but it just how they do it.



Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I dont' know how you think that the puppy in video 2 was learning anything other than try to bite two people for the pain they were inflicting. Until you see the finished product you really can't rate the method. *I'm still trying to figure out the need for a double line correction on a walk to the box. Ridiculous. Where's the self control in trying to bite two handlers?*
> T


It boils down to what we each are perceiving I guess, the dog was not wanting to walk to the box in my opinion, he was wanting to run up and eat the box.

The need for the double line is so the dog does not bite the people who are correcting it, to teach the dog NOT to bite the box.

Again, I would expect alot of dogs if trained with those methods, would try to bite the handlers at some point.

The attempts to bite the handler, at that point it is a byproduct of the methods used, obviously not a big deal to the people involved.

Not sure if anyone noticed in the other video of the dog, a little older, being corrected for attempting to bite the decoy, when it was not supposed to, that the dog did not attempt to bite the handler. 

Here it is again, the dog is corrected many times, and does not try to bite the handler even once, it appears to me that the dog at that age is used to the corrections and is not attempting to bite the handler, which was not case when it was younger. I would also bet that the dog will learn not to attempt to bite the helper, when it is not supposed to.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUwBdIF29Gs&feature=plcp

I am guessing if someone handled their dog like that (in the video above) that many people would be appalled, and think the dog was being abused. And that some people would maybe even want to take the leash, or confront the owner for the "abuse". I personally did not see anything that would make me feel that strongly, the dog does not show any signs to me that it is not able to handle the methods being used.

I can understand that the methods used are not mainstream, and that there are other ways to train a dog. It was not my intention to say that these methods are the best, or anything like that. My intention was to display methods used by some people, that others might consider as too harsh of methods, and see how people viewed it. I just did not see the negative effects on the dog itself in the videos, and therefore while the methods are harsh in my opinion, and not "needed" persay, but that is how they are doing it, and it works for them, and that it does not cross the threshold for ABUSE in my mind. 

There are videos of this pups father. I do not know how the dog was trained, I can only assume that some of the same methods were used. It does appear that he has learned some things in training, is showing compliance and self control, and also does not appear to be overly handler aggressive, or broken down by the methods used.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcXlxamv0NU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaIqn4DSooU&feature=plcp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weR_P1cCARA&feature=plcp


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

First, If a "by product" of training is handler aggression... I mean what's the product? Is it really worth it....it also is not training a dog to protect you, that's for sure. 

As for corrections with the decoy. The dog is different state of mind here. The dog has the decoy to worry about now. or is in such a high state of arousal is not so sensitive to the correction.

In my mind, harming a dog this hard in the name of points....Is abuse. Especially since we have methods that have been proven to work that reduce force...and don't give me that "my dog's too much drive, BS"...The more drive a dog has for a reward....the more withholding it is an effective punishemnt.

Also passed comments about tracking and force, First if a dog quits tracking....It's not a high drive dog, it's a normal dog OR the handler ****ed up...especially if the dog was tracking.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

James Downey said:


> First, If a "by product" of training is handler aggression... I mean what's the product? Is it really worth it....it also is not training a dog to protect you, that's for sure.
> 
> As for corrections with the decoy. The dog is different state of mind here. The dog has the decoy to worry about now. or is in such a high state of arousal is not so sensitive to the correction.
> 
> ...


I would be willing to bet my dog, that if you tried to attack that guy, if he had an adult dog with him, it would protect him, I would also be willing to bet if he commanded the dog to bite you it would. 

I would bet my car (less valuable) that the pup in the video would also protect him, if you tried to attack him, at whatever the age is now.

I would not fault anyone for agreeing with you on the methods used in the video, that is why I posted it, to see what people thought.

One thing is for sure, I would bet my dog and my car, that if the decoy stepped on the leash, and the dog was accidentally "corrected", it would not pop off the bite, even with all of the harsh corrections...


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> One thing is for sure, I would bet my dog and my car, that if the decoy stepped on the leash, and the dog was accidentally "corrected", it would not pop off the bite, even with all of the harsh corrections...


I question what the dog would di if you stepped on the leash when he's NOT on the bite



Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> Thanks for the responses.
> 
> One of the things that stuck out was someone saying they did not care for the handler aggression in that pup..
> 
> ...


 
Why is he wanting to run up and eat the box in the first place????? Has he already been trained to do so? You don't see trying to bite two handlers as a negative effect? No, I forgot, the fact that he is trying to fight back means he's a tough dog. Absent shutting down or "overyly" handler aggressive, what is abuse in your mind? I think you have a fairly high tolerance for a dog that will bite his handler and its no biggie. For me, its a sign of training gone wrong or a bred too high on all tht social aggression you and others seem to love. The end does not always justify the means. You also can't tell from these little video clips whether he has aggression issues or not. Just because they didn't video it does't mean it isn't there. Only they know.

T


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> I would be willing to bet my dog, that if you tried to attack that guy, if he had an adult dog with him, it would protect him, I would also be willing to bet if he commanded the dog to bite you it would.
> 
> I would bet my car (less valuable) that the pup in the video would also protect him, if you tried to attack him, at whatever the age is now.
> 
> ...


I would not fault anyone for agreeing with you on your views either. I am not saying I have the answer. But what I am saying if you seen me train the dog for those exercises.... we would not be having this conversation.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

handler aggression - inbuilt feature with those super tough dogs or just shit training???


like defending against ghosts - the fact you dont see ghosts is because someone is out there keeping them at bay by praying against them or sumthin.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Why is he wanting to run up and eat the box in the first place????? Has he already been trained to do so?


Already covered, some people train the dog to have drive for the box, some dont, some dogs just have it, the puppy I had here (Yoda) had drive for any thing I would pick up and put in his view, with no real training for it. If I handled it, or moved it, he wanted it. He would drag me out to that box to bite it if he saw me put it out there. just the way he is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dL_qNbPYhyE

I have no clue exactly what was done concerning the box, but the small pup vid shows them building drive for larger objects. I doubt highly the dog was allowed to bite the actual box, though, probably just teased with it.



Terrasita Cuffie said:


> You don't see trying to bite two handlers as a negative effect? No, I forgot, the fact that he is trying to fight back means he's a tough dog.


I never said it was not a negative effect, I said it was a by-product, that those guys did not seem overly concerned about at the time, in the video of that youngish puppy. I would imagine that the dog will grow to be a pretty tough dog in general, yes, but not because *she* is trying to bite the handler. The pedigree itself pretty much says it will be a tough dog for the most part, most likely. I would expect ANY strong dog to try to fight back in some fashion if those methods were being used, unless it just melted away, which would not really be an indicator if the dog was "tough" or not, but if I was going to use those types of methods, I personally would prefer a dog that did not melt and shut down. 



Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Absent shutting down or "overyly" handler aggressive, what is abuse in your mind?


I have definitely seen people do things to dogs that I thought was abusive, usually out of anger, or ignorance in using the methods they are attempting to use. If a dog is handler aggressive or not, does not really have a bearing on whether it is abuse or not. Some dogs will try to bite for trying to take a toy away from them, is that abuse?



Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I think you have a fairly high tolerance for a dog that will bite his handler and its no biggie.


Again I would expect almost any dog, to try to bite the handler if those methods were used. I personally did not see the dog bite the handler, mylself, and if it did, I would not blame the dog. I do not have a high tolerance for (my) dogs to try to bite me, but do understand that some dogs will try to bite a handler, if given what is considered an "unfair" correction by the dog in question, or if not properly prepared for collar corrections, depending on their training, and their breeding.



Terrasita Cuffie said:


> For me, its a sign of training gone wrong or a bred too high on all tht social aggression you and others seem to love.


That is your opinion, that it is a sign of training gone wrong, and I can agree with that for the most part, although in this case I just dont see the training going wrong with the dog. I did not see the dog bite the handler either.

I do not think social aggression has very much to do with this at all, honestly. Like I said, I would expect almost any strong dog to show some signs of aggression initially, using those types of methods. 

Although the dog may also have social aggression, don't know for sure. If you meet her, I would not try to take the leash and try to correct her without properly bonding with her first, that much I can say for sure.



Terrasita Cuffie said:


> The end does not always justify the means. You also can't tell from these little video clips whether he has aggression issues or not. Just because they didn't video it does't mean it isn't there. Only they know.


Not sure what you mean about aggression "issues" exactly. They are not training the dog to be a family pet I do not "think". 

I would think that the dog will have some aggressive tendencies for sure, I am not overly concerned about that, because I am not gonna end up with the dog in my double wide with the kids, and also because I would think that who ever ends up handling the dog in the future, if it is not the handler in the video, would be well versed in handling dogs of that nature. Nothing for us to really worry about, if the dog has aggression "issues" in my mind.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

James Downey said:


> I would not fault anyone for agreeing with you on your views either. I am not saying I have the answer. But what I am saying if you seen me train the dog for those exercises.... we would not be having this conversation.


sure, me either, I dont train like that, but do use corrections, sometimes harsh ones....different strokes for different folks.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> Already covered, some people train the dog to have drive for the box, some dont, some dogs just have it, the puppy I had here (Yoda) had drive for any thing I would pick up and put in his view, with no real training for it. If I handled it, or moved it, he wanted it. He would drag me out to that box to bite it if he saw me put it out there. just the way he is.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dL_qNbPYhyE
> 
> ...


 
I wonder if anyone has ever thought to bond to the dog first and build the control and willingness to work for the handler before introducing any of the drive objects or the bite work. Genetically, the drives are there so why even screw with that initially? With Yoda, you also encouraged the expression of the object fascination. You indicate that its some off shoot of possession. You touch it, he wants it or wants to bite it and for the most part you allow it. So is Yoda, no longer with you?

T


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

finally, a sane post on this thread


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

could we at least agree that harsh corrections are fine for a dog who KNOWS the command but fails to comply rather than use it to force a pup to comply with your wishes ????

for me this wouldn't fall into a "different stroke" category...it is black and white on when harsh corrections are acceptable, and the clip i was referring to clearly shows a YOUNG pup trying to figure out what it was supposed to be complying with, no matter how hard or how driven it might have been

or maybe i'm just missing the "points" being debated here ??


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

yr missing nothin Rick


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

look everyone my dog is such a bad ass it tries to bite me......yeah right.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

rick smith said:


> could we at least agree that harsh corrections are fine for a dog who KNOWS the command but fails to comply rather than use it to force a pup to comply with your wishes ????
> 
> for me this wouldn't fall into a "different stroke" category...it is black and white on when harsh corrections are acceptable, and the clip i was referring to clearly shows a YOUNG pup trying to figure out what it was supposed to be complying with, no matter how hard or how driven it might have been
> 
> or maybe i'm just missing the "points" being debated here ??


Well, bottom line can you really legislate for the masses regarding dog training. What's harsh? Regardless of whether the dog flipped his paw and you and said screw you, what is the cut off for correction before it goes from harsh to abuse? Here we have the prong collars. I didn't watch all the videos. But what of the groin wrapped e-collars and such? Harsh? Abuse? Justified, either way if doggie disobeys a known command? 

T


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I wonder if anyone has ever thought to bond to the dog first and build the control and willingness to work for the handler before introducing any of the drive objects or the bite work.


Are you really asking this as a serious question? Of course people have thought of this, millions of people have thought of this. others do not do much control work with young dogs, they like to build the drive first, and dial it back later, if needed. Some people do not do much at all with young dogs...All depends on the dogs and the people training them. 



> Genetically, the drives are there so why even screw with that initially? With Yoda, you also encouraged the expression of the object fascination. You indicate that its some off shoot of possession. You touch it, he wants it or wants to bite it and for the most part you allow it. So is Yoda, no longer with you?
> 
> T


I would not say with Yoda, that I encouraged it much to any noticeable degree for crazy weird objects, most everything I did was with normal things like a tug, ball, wood, pvc, copper and steel pipe. 

Although we did test him on a jug and a rag as a small puppy, and I did shoot 2 videos in which I did allow him to do it with other things, once I saw how it was with him, so that was encouragement in a small degree.

I also did not do anything to discourage it, except to keep him away from things if I was doing things like sweeping or carrying boxes and such. It was an offshoot of drive for objects and possession, yes

With him, I did not do any Obedience work, or any form of control work. Just drive building for common training objects and a little tug and sleeve work. 

He never got a correction with a collar, he did get a couple "pops" to interrupt and discourage his obnoxious jumping up and puppy biting me, or trying to "pop" (bump/kiss whatever) people that was about it. 

No Yoda is no longer with me, he left here at 7 months, I never had intentions on keeping him long-term, just wanted to check him out for a bit. He is in the southeastern US now. Will hopefully be able to get some video and updates from his new owner occasionally.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

rick smith said:


> could we at least agree that harsh corrections are fine for a dog who KNOWS the command but fails to comply rather than use it to force a pup to comply with your wishes ????
> 
> for me this wouldn't fall into a "different stroke" category...it is black and white on when harsh corrections are acceptable, and the clip i was referring to clearly shows a YOUNG pup trying to figure out what it was supposed to be complying with, no matter how hard or how driven it might have been
> 
> or maybe i'm just missing the "points" being debated here ??


fine by who? I agree that I would be pretty pissed myself if I went to the park and saw my neighbor using those methods to teach their soft, fluffy english bulldog pup to heel, knowing that the dog could not handle it, and that my neighbor has no clue on how to train a dog....but I have seen worse..

one time I watched an old neighbor kick his Chow in the rib cage for tearing up the trash can.. I just shook my head...

a few weeks later, I see him going nuts outside his truck, yelling.....he walks over and asks me if I could help him....I said "whats the problem?"...he says "the dog wont get out of my truck and hes trying to bite me" it was not a surprise to me at all, the dog had already bitten me before, and a couple other people, and he was just kicking it recently... so I got the bitesuit on and dragged him out of the truck for the guy..the dog ended up biting him a couple months later.

I always try to help educate people on the proper way to train their dogs, if they have no clue what they are doing. If they are experienced trainers, and get the results they are looking for with their dogs, who am I to say what they are doing is wrong? I sure as hell dont want anyone dictating to me how I should be training my dog.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

legislating for the masses ???

anyway, guess that means we can't agree 
btw, thread was labeled :
"Dog learning in stress, corrections, conflict, compulsion."
the clip i referred to showed all this...

thot my point was simple and it didn't have anything to do with the "degree of harshness" or strappin an Ecollar to a belly 
...and i didn't see a little "doggie" in the clip ... i saw a nice hard assed, driven little PUP trying to figure out what the hell was going while those two grown men were yanking it around :evil:

my suggestion still "works for me" and that's how i train, and guess i really don't care if there is agreement with my philosophy or not


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i'd like to meet your neighbors Joby ... interesting bunch 
i never worked with a chow but hear lots of stories about em being tuff nuts to crack when they dig in .... must be interesting dogs 
...do they have strong bite pressure ?? seems like the way they are built they would


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

so there is no right/wrong, good/bad way to train a dog, just different strokes, results speak for themselves kinda thing?


too much stroking it going on here at times for my likings.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

rick smith said:


> i'd like to meet your neighbors Joby ... interesting bunch
> i never worked with a chow but hear lots of stories about em being tuff nuts to crack when they dig in .... must be interesting dogs
> ...do they have strong bite pressure ?? seems like the way they are built they would


EVERY CHOW i have spent any length of time around has tried to, or actually has bitten me. I do not care for them that much for obvious reasons. In my experiences, they seem to be a fairly dominant breed that is not really all that friendly. I would call most of the ones I have met, punks, but doesnt really matter much if they are a punk, when they bite you...you are still bit...

if I go somewhere socially with a chow there, I will not enter the house unless the dog is contained or restrained...some people say "he wont bite", I just say, "he'll bite me"... because I am pre-disposed to get bit by chows now, subconsciously..and give off the "creepy" vibe...I would rather spend time with a stable, but unfriendly GSD anyday of the week that I know could bite me, than a "friendly" adult chow....sound crazy but its true.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> EVERY CHOW i have spent any length of time around has tried to, or actually has bitten me. I do not care for them that much for obvious reasons. In my experiences, they seem to be a fairly dominant breed that is not really all that friendly. I would call most of the ones I have met, punks, but doesnt really matter much if they are a punk, when they bite you...you are still bit...
> 
> if I go somewhere socially with a chow there, I will not enter the house unless the dog is contained or restrained...some people say "he wont bite", I just say, "he'll bite me"... because I am pre-disposed to get bit by chows now, subconsciously..and give off the "creepy" vibe...I would rather spend time with a stable, but unfriendly GSD anyday of the week that I know could bite me, than a "friendly" adult chow....sound crazy but its true.


 
I know. Every nutso dog won't let owner in the house call I got back in the day was a chow. I'm not real big on Cane Corsos either but recently met a pretty sane one and got quite th breed education. I still have the leash it up, put it up view for the chow.

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

rick smith said:


> legislating for the masses ???
> 
> anyway, guess that means we can't agree
> btw, thread was labeled :
> ...


They think they're justified. You think your method is valid. Hard assed and driven---5 months? I'm glad you could tell. I say take all that crap off his neck and not have him in survival mode and then we'll see what he is. Learning in stress and conflict? Really? Okay, how to freeze to keep your air flowing and shut off the pain. One person's justifiable harsh is another person's cruelty. You aren't going to get a consensus on drawing the line in the sand. There are plenty of people though that believe if it gets a title/results, its all good. Years ago a breeder called me and asked what is it about people who want titles. Four dogs sent to a trainer, one died. Harsh methods known about. Big fight between the breeder and the coowner when they want to send another dog to the same trainer saying he can get title results. Ends justifies the means. Instead of chest pounding that the dog is so tough he can take the stress of harsh corrections, how about breeding the ones that don't need it for training and compliance. Its drives, drives drives, bite, bite, bite. How about breeding for trainability/directability/biddability--whatever you want to call it. I don't have issues with correcting a dog. But double sided pinch collars on a five month old puppy to sit on a box doesn't demonstrate any training prowess.

T


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

T, I think we are coming together, then I think we are not.. I am now seeing why Lou dissects most posts when replying, it would be hard to address it otherwise....LOL.



Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Hard assed and driven---5 months? I'm glad you could tell.


How many puppies do you think can handle that type of training by percentage? not many at all, I would say. most will break.

Please show show me any video of any dog at 5 months, that would illustrate the hardness and drive of a dog, that shows the depth of what is shown in the videos in this thread? I did not realize your standards for hardness and drives was so high...



> I say take all that crap off his neck and not have him in survival mode and then we'll see what he is.


*SHE *is...

this almost reads like James' post about there being no dog without the cheerleading squad..or making assumptions that the dog would not protect the owner, just shows me that either you guys did not watch the videos, or you are not being very honest.

here they are AGAIN, 5 months old, on a flat collar, no survival mode...driven? hard assed enough for you?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YN6vgEBN0s0&feature=plcp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwYBdk2JRxo&feature=plcp

aside from all the corrections, please actually watch this video, and you will see what the dog is at just under 10 months, this is NOT survival mode, but does show what the dog is, even with harsh corrections...Does the dog not look hard-assed and driven in this video either, or are there just about 10 or so crazy people that have viewed them, and pm'ed me???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUwBdIF29Gs&feature=plcp

or the second half of this one?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OktkwdiSFj0&feature=plcp



> Learning in stress and conflict? Really? ... Instead of chest pounding that the dog is so tough he can take the stress of harsh corrections, how about breeding the ones that don't need it for training and compliance.


Chest pounding??? 

I hope you are not under the impression that the dog NEEDS to be trained like these guys are training it, that would be an incorrect assumption. They are training it they way they train it, it is not that the dog needs that harsh of training, it is that the dog must be hard assed and driven to make it through the way they are training it. They are not breeding dogs that NEED to be trained that way, they are attempting to breed high drive, tough dogs, and although they are training the dog to be titled, it is not usually all about points, from a breeding standpoint as it can be in some of the other sports, the purpose of the breedings are done for the most part, to produce strong dual purpose police type dogs, regardless of the training methods used.



> Its drives, drives drives, bite, bite, bite. How about breeding for trainability/directability/biddability--whatever you want to call it.


It is a little more than that, it is drives, nerves, hardness, searching ability, and all the other things that are important when breeding for police dogs. To attempt to breed dogs that do not have any holes, dogs that are complete in their temperament and character package. Ease of training, control and compliance are a nice thing to have for sure, and many of these dogs are actually biddable/trainable/directable...but serious people do not breed for strong complete police dogs by choosing studs and breeding dogs based on their biddability, or ease of training...the other things that are actually really important are hard enough to get, without making a requirement that the dogs are biddable.

do you know what the definition of Biddable is???

*Biddable*

*1. Meekly ready to accept and follow instructions; docile and obedient.

Synonyms:

acquiescent, docile, tractable, bootlicking, amenable, compliant, obliging, pliable, submissive, tractable, passive, resigned, obedient, subdued, meek, yielding*

These are not terms that I would think would describe the ideal police dog that will be expected to run headfirst into certain danger and fight often violent people with their lives and the lives of others on the line. 

Whether you agree or not, it is far more important the dog be driven, solid, and tough to perform K9 work, they are not used to befriend, submit,be yeilding to, or compliant to the violent felons they may encounter. It is not about "chest pounding".

Any dog that passes the certification is showing a degree of trainability/directability, regardless of how it has been trained, or how it needed to be trained



> I don't have issues with correcting a dog. But double sided pinch collars on a five month old puppy to sit on a box doesn't demonstrate any training prowess.


ever been bitten by a really pissed off, tough 5 month old puppy? it is not fun. 

again. I thought we were close but then you touched on a whole bunch of stuff, denying that is a tough driven puppy, showing apparent disdain for breeding for drives and strength in the bitework, to saying that the dog NEEDS to be trained like that, to suggest breeding dogs that will never need any harsh corrections, to breeding dogs that are more tractable, and biddable...

we are not very close on the subjects raised in this thread at all

Most of these dogs are bred with the goal of becoming police dogs, not pets, not points dogs in sports. Some dogs do not cut it for the sport, or as police dogs, and some do continue the training, to have a sport career, but that is not the goal...


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## Travis Ragin (Apr 10, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> here they are AGAIN, 5 months old, on a flat collar, no survival mode...driven? hard assed enough for you?
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YN6vgEBN0s0&feature=plcp
> 
> .


I watched this video the first time it was posted,and just watched it again.All I watched was the dog(not the training)..........Didn''t see a "hard ---" puppy on there....obviously she is very "driven" to bite that sleeve/tug,but that is all.


When the decoy approaches at _:04_.....the pup is looking through his legs because she can see the sleeve swinging behind him---even though he very much tried to keep it out of view.When he raised his arm and stick up in the air at _:07 _to show how the pup responds to "civil"......it is actually misleading,because his arm and stick being *the only thing in* *motion*....*they instantly became prey* in the pups eyes and that is obviously what the pup was trying to get to.


Once he reveals the sleeve from behind his back at around _:11 _,the pup instantly shifted his focus onto that,because she knew *that* was what he was supposed to bite.The pup did not take his eyes off of that sleeve/tug for the rest of that video.Watch closely at _:25 - :33 _when the decoy raises his arm and stick up to "threaten" exactly as he did in the beginning of the vid.....the pup ignores it completely this time.......unlike she did at the beginning.


Watching the dog in this video.....I just see a rough,rugged and physical game of tug o' war being played here


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> T, I think we are coming together, then I think we are not.. I am now seeing why Lou dissects most posts when replying, it would be hard to address it otherwise....LOL.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Okay, I'm too lazy to play the dissect game. A 30 second video of a double sided pinch collar correction tells me minimal about the dog. How long that dog will hold up and what he is like on and off the field, you can't know. You don't know if somewhere along the line of this time of training he won't lose his mind and wash out. Dogs will seemingly get through something but break down later. Nor did I say it* needed* to be trained like that. I don't think anything needs to be trained like that and if it does, might be time to reconsider the breeding priorities. You can have all the strength you want but more is not better to the point of handler aggression and it may need a couple of near death experiences to toe the line. "Harsh" correction? Define that. I don't consider what I saw in that video a harsh correction. I consider it useless, stupid and unnecessary. I don't really have problems with corrections per se since I give them. Disdain???? I have more disdain for putting this type of crap on the internet. More crap to fuel the anti-working or right to own dogs crowd. I think LE and military may have a need for a certain type of dog. I also think there is a type of dog that you may have to have a ugly come to jesus conversation with. I've learned not to take anything for granted and certainly not to form too many conclusions from video clips of dogs that can be made to look a certain way through training. Live with it for 60 days, work it and catch it. Then, you can form an opinion. 

T


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Travis Ragin said:


> I watched this video the first time it was posted,and just watched it again.All I watched was the dog(not the training)..........Didn''t see a "hard ---" puppy on there....obviously she is very "driven" to bite that sleeve/tug,but that is all.
> 
> 
> When the decoy approaches at _:04_.....the pup is looking through his legs because she can see the sleeve swinging behind him---even though he very much tried to keep it out of view.When he raised his arm and stick up in the air at _:07 _to show how the pup responds to "civil"......it is actually misleading,because his arm and stick being *the only thing in* *motion*....*they instantly became prey* in the pups eyes and that is obviously what the pup was trying to get to.
> ...


what is your definition of hard, Travis. That might help...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Okay, I'm too lazy to play the dissect game. A 30 second video of a double sided pinch collar correction tells me minimal about the dog. How long that dog will hold up and what he is like on and off the field, you can't know. You don't know if somewhere along the line of this time of training he won't lose his mind and wash out. Dogs will seemingly get through something but break down later. Nor did I say it* needed* to be trained like that. I don't think anything needs to be trained like that and if it does, might be time to reconsider the breeding priorities. You can have all the strength you want but more is not better to the point of handler aggression and it may need a couple of near death experiences to toe the line. "Harsh" correction? Define that. I don't consider what I saw in that video a harsh correction. I consider it useless, stupid and unnecessary. I don't really have problems with corrections per se since I give them. Disdain???? I have more disdain for putting this type of crap on the internet. More crap to fuel the anti-working or right to own dogs crowd. I think LE and military may have a need for a certain type of dog. I also think there is a type of dog that you may have to have a ugly come to jesus conversation with. I've learned not to take anything for granted and certainly not to form too many conclusions from video clips of dogs that can be made to look a certain way through training. *Live with it for 60 days, work it and catch it. Then, you can form an opinion.*
> 
> T


If that was required to form an opinion, nobody would be qualified to have one. 

fair enough...dog can certainly be made to "look" a certain way with training, and some dogs "are" a certain way. time will tell, as it does with everything.. 

Holy crap, if you dont consider some of those corrections to be harsh, then you are thicker skinned than me.. 

Like I said, I look forward to seeing the dogs progress if it is available to view.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> Holy crap, if you dont consider some of those corrections to be harsh, then you are thicker skinned than me..


Harsh for a 5 mo, but not harsh in general:-\"


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Joby Becker said:


> older cute pup learning self control, heeling, targeting and grip (corrections)
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUwBdIF29Gs&feature=plcp


I haven't read the whole thread, and don't really know the goals of the training...so I may be WAY off base. There may be reasons that the dog is being handled this way...sometimes people want to make the dogs a certain way.

I just watched this one vid.

Did this pup actually learn any self control or heeling?

The dog gets jerked around on a martingale, when the dog does get "heeled" away from the decoy, the handler has the dog "pinned". There is no loose leash or any control required from the dog, the dog is held in position by the handler, by two hands actually! The jerking around does seem to get a small amount of focus on the handler, but no having the dog be in proper heeling position on his own.

The dog doesn't really consider what is being done to him/her corrections I don't think, by the dog's attitude it is just something the dog is enduring on the way to getting to bite. It is good work in hardening the dog, maybe that was part of the goal?

If those same corrections were delivered on a pinch, the dog may have worked to avoid them. Or bitten the handler lol!


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> If that was required to form an opinion, nobody would be qualified to have one.
> 
> fair enough...dog can certainly be made to "look" a certain way with training, and some dogs "are" a certain way. time will tell, as it does with everything..
> 
> ...


Now that I've had a couple of dogs in for training, having seen them on their respective competition fields and seen them off the field, lived with them, worked them and past the initial 30 days I KNOW that training and conditioning can mask a LOT. I assume nothing from video or trial performances. What I see in the first 30 days can be different from what I see at the 60 day mark after they are comfy in their new surroundings. "Harsh" is one of those subjective terms--too many variables and situational. Watching a video, all you can say is that it "looks" to be this or that. Just read a post somewhere from Suttle regarding a high scoring KNPV dog that was an environmental failure off the field. Great training and conditioning for that situation but does it really give you the total package on the dog? No. Get it home, live with it and work it yourself and you find out what you really have. 

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Jennifer Coulter;341968The dog doesn't really consider what is being done to him/her corrections I don't think said:


> something the dog is enduring[/B] on the way to getting to bite.l!


 
Exactly. That's the quality or feel of it watching it.


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

1st vid is foundations of box search, make dog crazy for jug on string, substitute to box on string, take away string

2nd vid is private can't see any thing

3rd vid.. the beginning reminds me of watching pet people try to teach their dog not to jump on them by petting the dog and telling it to stop, or talking to the dog in sentences. The dog eventually settles into the pattern and is doing what they're trying to accomplish. Kudos for the dog for sticking with the program and actually learning some thing as she obviously is learning. Is it necessary to treat this dog the way she is being treated to get these results? Absolutely not. She looks like a frustrated high drive dog that on occasion turns around and says what the F&^% do you want from me! Despite every thing I don't see the dog every one else is describing, she seems relatively happy enough to be there and work with her person even though it's fairly obvious she thinks he's an idiot  At this point, I don't see a nasty hard dog, I see a normal high drive dog being handled by a not so talented trainer. Again, kudos to her for being resilient to all that bs and wanting to keep going, nice dog.

The seccond last vid... the one with the music... I couldn't keep watching it, felt too sorry for her. They think they taught her to heel and she should know it and she's being dominant by not listening, I can just hear it. They taught the dog shit and she's doing what they taught her to do and she's being yanked all over the place for it. Are they being harsh? Yes. Is it fair and justified? Absolutely not. It's lazy and stupid training leading to very predictable results. Progressing too fast, unplanned, unintelligent, expecting the dog to know it because you spent an x amount of your precious time on it. That dog is not learning self control, that dog is learning a pattern, and the fact she eventually does get to bite after enduring all the bs is in fact teaching her to persist with the bs with no consequences because as violent as all that jerking around is, she's already desensitized to it enough that it's mostly annoying to her and her brain isn't even working out the problem. In her mind there is no problem. She comes to the field, gets yanked and tossed around on the leash, then gets to bite and goes home. 





Joby Becker said:


> Great topic for the no conflict zone
> 
> 
> cute puppy 7 weeks, first time training for what I assume is the box revier. (no corrections)
> ...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> I haven't read the whole thread, and don't really know the goals of the training...so I may be WAY off base. There may be reasons that the dog is being handled this way...sometimes people want to make the dogs a certain way.
> 
> I just watched this one vid.
> 
> ...


I certainly think that is one aspect for sure. The hardening of the dog in general which I guess some people might also view as making a dog "look" a certain way,as opposed to the dog being/becoming a certain way. I agree it is good work in that regard, like I said it just fits in my mind for what the overall picture is, and the type of dog that it appears they are working towards...

It could also be that the dog is not viewing any of it as a correction, although I would tend to disagree somewhat with that.

I do also think the dog appears to be learning the heeling, and learning to curb the fixation to the decoy, which obviously is a process that will take place over time...I saw moments in the video where the dog's instincts were being "suppressed". 

I think you hit one nail on the head for sure though with the hardening of the puppy. And I also think it is working.


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

oh oh! let me do some predictions! When they're ready for off leash work (not the dog, when they think they're ready because they have spent enough time and this on leash stuff is getting boring). Dog ends up on an ecollar cranked to max for off leash work because she's too hard and aggressive and doesn't want to do what she's told.

Sad really.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Marta Wajngarten said:


> oh oh! let me do some predictions! When they're ready for off leash work (not the dog, when they think they're ready because they have spent enough time and this on leash stuff is getting boring). Dog ends up on an ecollar cranked to max for off leash work because she's too hard and aggressive and doesn't want to do what she's told.
> 
> Sad really.


 
True. The dog never complied or heeled in the pressure zone of the decoy. Prong/collar pressure means bite--to the dog. There is no control. She was given a bite after completely failing what was desired so what did she learn. Lots of lunges wrapping her legs around the handler, etc. Once you "harden" her to this, where do you go from there---some serious electricity. How high does that have to go since shes been trained to not comply, endure and blow through the so called corrections. Does crap for the handler control or dog/handler working relationship. Whether the corrections are harsh aside, just really jacked up crappy training creating problems unnecessarily. 

T


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Harden to the decoy makes some sense. But why harden to the handler and intentionally bring conflict?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Harden to the decoy makes some sense. But why harden to the handler and intentionally bring conflict?


one reason I can think right off the top of my head, is to ensure that if the leash accidentally gets stepped on, by the decoy or the handler, or pulled on by the handler, in training or on the competition field, that the dog will not pop off of the bite.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> True. The dog never complied or heeled in the pressure zone of the decoy. Prong/collar pressure means bite--to the dog. There is no control. She was given a bite after completely failing what was desired so what did she learn. Lots of lunges wrapping her legs around the handler, etc. Once you "harden" her to this, where do you go from there---some serious electricity. How high does that have to go since shes been trained to not comply, endure and blow through the so called corrections. Does crap for the handler control or dog/handler working relationship. Whether the corrections are harsh aside, just really jacked up crappy training creating problems unnecessarily.
> 
> T


is it true? do you have enough information to call that a fact? Although I am sure an ecollar is in her future, I am not sure that "serious electricity" or "cranked to the max" is a given...

You can tell all this and make all these predictions, based on a few minutes of video?

What happened to living with the dog, working it, and catching it, before making an opinion on it.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> If those same corrections were delivered on a pinch, the dog may have worked to avoid them.


Joby, curious about what you think about this part of my statement.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Joby, curious about what you think about this part of my statement.


I think it is dead on, it is a definite possibility, I am not under the illusion that the young dog is going to be come so hard, that it is a given that it will just ignore stiff corrections from a pinch collar, as some others appear to be.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> is it true? do you have enough information to call that a fact? Although I am sure an ecollar is in her future, I am not sure that "serious electricity" or "cranked to the max" is a given...
> 
> You can tell all this and make all these predictions, based on a few minutes of video?
> 
> What happened to living with the dog, working it, and catching it, before making an opinion on it.


That was on your hardness and drive and the dog's general makeup. You look at that video and see the e-collar on her neck and the response to the yanking and cranking on the pinch collar and yep, the next step up is the zap. This is all part of the hardening isn't it. Look at the guy and look at the dog's response. Does he have anywhere left to go with the pinch collar. Is it effective? I can't tell if he's buzzing her at the same time or not. But really the dog seems to think bite as a response to the so called correction so in stopping a behavior or in your case, teaching something, what was taught or learned here in this session. What progress was made.  As someone else said, she is not truly corrected. She just struggles against it and endures and then he releses her for a bite. In the pressure bubble of the decoy, she never stops lunging for him and trying to bite something. The pinch collar cranking just seems to drive her to want to bite something, more. 

T


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> one reason I can think right off the top of my head, is to ensure that if the leash accidentally gets stepped on, by the decoy or the handler, or pulled on by the handler, in training or on the competition field, that the dog will not pop off of the bite.


For a sport dog, I'd still prefer a dog responsive enough to me with leash corrections and not invite a fight every single time because you are having to ramp up the level each time. Isolated incidents like what happened in the trial are not a big deal. It happens and I don't blame anybody.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> For a sport dog, I'd still prefer a dog responsive enough to me with leash corrections and not invite a fight every single time because you are having to ramp up the level each time. Isolated incidents like what happened in the trial are not a big deal. It happens and I don't blame anybody.


that is fine with me. you can do whatever you want with your dog, and train it however you want to, that is your right. you prefer some things, some people prefer others... you are fine with the dog popping off cause a leash got stepped on, and like a more sensitive dog, there is no crime against that..


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

I honestly don't think that hardening the dog is in any way a conscious training goal for these people. I think it is a natural by product of the poor unthoughtful training in this case. I think they absolutely value that hardness, but I don't think they set out to purposely poorly train this dog and obviously be frustrated by the lack of results they do want (heeling by the decoy) just to accomplish a hardened dog. They're yanking the dog out of frustration because she isn't doing what she doesn't know that they think she should know that they think they have taught her. The dog has only two choices, endure the dumb process and continue on, or fold and be given the boot. The fact that her training is progressing is more of a testament to her ability to continue to take and endure this stupidness so that she can eventually bite on her terms.. seriously who's training who here?


and one thing I have learned from watching many people train.. it's not always the good trainers that succeed if they don't put in the time. I've seen some pretty incompetent trainers reach their goals through sheer perseverance. If you're on that training field a few times per week without fail until you get your title, you will eventually get it. Even if the training is flawed, the dog eventually learns the pattern even if the final result isn't pretty and polished.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Marta Wajngarten said:


> I honestly don't think that hardening the dog is in any way a conscious training goal for these people. I think it is a natural by product of the poor unthoughtful training in this case. I think they absolutely value that hardness, but I don't think they set out to purposely poorly train this dog and obviously be frustrated by the lack of results they do want (heeling by the decoy) just to accomplish a hardened dog. They're yanking the dog out of frustration because she isn't doing what she doesn't know that they think she should know that they think they have taught her. The dog has only two choices, endure the dumb process and continue on, or fold and be given the boot. The fact that her training is progressing is more of a testament to her ability to continue to take and endure this stupidness so that she can eventually bite on her terms.. seriously who's training who here?
> 
> 
> and one thing I have learned from watching many people train.. it's not always the good trainers that succeed if they don't put in the time. I've seen some pretty incompetent trainers reach their goals through sheer perseverance. If you're on that training field a few times per week without fail until you get your title, you will eventually get it. Even if the training is flawed, the dog eventually learns the pattern even if the final result isn't pretty and polished.


so now the guys are so inept at training, that the dog is training them?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Marta, I like and agree with every post you've made on this thread.


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

Marta Wajngarten said:


> In her mind there is no problem. She comes to the field, gets yanked and tossed around on the leash, then gets to bite and goes home.


Joby, I repeat the above. If there is no problem, there is no solution, there is no learning.

You let a hound off leash and go running after it yelling "Spencer come!" "Spencer cooome!!" I can't remember the name of that damned dog chasing deer in the field! The dog eventually comes to you 4h later when the deer are all gone. Did you just teach that dog how to "come" on command? Because that's basically what I'm seeing in the vids you posted. You can even slap an ecollar on that hound scenario and zap it a few times during that 4h period if that legitimizes the training.


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

Bob! Where's ma cookie!


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

It is a very small world...especially with the internet. Someone must know the trainer/handler/decoys. Is this the norm (compulsion) in teaching the behaviors we see in this video. 

I too have a hard time watching a 5 month old puppy being taught heeling in such a manner but maybe I am missing something here???

Are these people accomplished in PH's?


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## Travis Ragin (Apr 10, 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUwBdIF29Gs&feature=plcp



Marta Wajngarten said:


> That dog is not learning self control, that dog is learning a pattern, and the fact she eventually does get to bite after enduring all the bs is in fact teaching her to persist with the bs with no consequences because as violent as all that jerking around is, she's already desensitized to it enough that it's mostly annoying to her and her brain isn't even working out the problem. In her mind there is no problem.


Really great job of watching that *dog*..........and commenting on her reactions to the stimuli.Ignoring everything else going on and watching the *dog *will tell you/me/anybody what is going on in a given instance.






> She comes to the field, gets yanked and tossed around on the leash, then gets to bite and goes home.


There are also several *puppies* who are there witnessing this entire operation.......those *puppies* are there watching and learning from that *dog*.They don't understand any of the words and/or actions that the humans there are engaged in at all......they are watching that *dog* and learning that the ultimate reason for them being there---is to bite that guy in the suit.Everything else is to be ignored.

I agree with all of your posts too!! good stuff Choochi :smile:


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Title of the thread training in.........

Just imagine training without it all and gradually bringing it over time and if needed, I'd like to see that comparison and at 18months.

I won't comment as it means nothing anyway, however I wonder once mature the balance this dog will have to do anywork other than what it is trained to do.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Marta Wajngarten said:


> Bob! Where's ma cookie!


:lol: :lol: 
Getting physical doesn't mean the dog is learning a thing. 
I agee with the "Spencer come" scenario. Good training is about timing, timing, timing! :grin:


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## Travis Ragin (Apr 10, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> what is your definition of hard, Travis. That might help...



Hard = Violence = life or death


You don't teach violence and life/death consequences to a 7 yr.old because their brain can't process it.


A 5 month old pup is the same




I'm commenting only on the dogs here, because I didn''t have a clue what they are training for(which doesn't matter to me).....IMO they would make great protection sport and apprehension dogs with this training though.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

all great posts. lots of varying opinions and assumptions, made by myself and everyone involved that has been contributed.

it is really amazing when one reads back and just looks at everything that everyone has said about it, the variation. from harsh and abusive, to not harsh, it is not abusive,and the dog doesnt even view things as a correction. there is a plan, and then there isnt, to the guys are just idiots and cant train a dog period, the dog is hard the dog is not hard, the dog will not make a good protection dog... etc. etc...

I submit to everyones will here on the subject, and will now save the rest of my guessing and opinions on the until further info is available. 

There are only a select few people that post here that are familiar with the people and the dogs on here, and they are respectfully not saying much if anything at all, the rest of us are just making guesses and assumptions.

It was never my intention to proclaim this to be the best training, or that the dog is question is the best dog around, just came across something that I knew would fire people up, and it did.

It was a good discussion, I am out... 

gonna go play ball with the dog, and smack her around some...she deserves it.


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## Travis Ragin (Apr 10, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> the rest of us are just making guesses and assumptions.


yea.... well peace out then,

I saw a couple of people simply replying as to what they saw the dog doing in the video,no guessing and assuming there at all.

unless they are doggie actors or something........


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

(only smiley is to short for a message)


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Travis Ragin said:


> Hard = Violence = life or death
> You don't teach violence and life/death consequences to a 7 yr.old because their brain can't process it.
> A 5 month old pup is the same
> I'm commenting only on the dogs here, because I didn''t have a clue what they are training for(which doesn't matter to me).....IMO they would make great protection sport and apprehension dogs with this training though.


Travis, *I do not know of anyone that trains dogs that thinks of the term hardness in that way*.

most people think of hardness as being able to work through and recover from pressure applied, such as pain, or other pressure from the handler, or pressure from the decoy, no one I know thinks of it as violence =life or death.

I am thinking that might be more viewed as heart, courage, aggression.

did not catch your post, now I am done...


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

Joby Q for you...
While I dont think it's happening here on purpose, I'm on board with you for hardening a dog, or a term I would rather use desensitizing a dog to what ever fighting attacking stepping on a leash etc... But do you think that a dog has to be handler hard in order to be environment/decoy hard? Or do you think it is possible to have a balance of a dog that is sensitive enough to handler input that training is not a constant fight (personal preferences aside because I honestly don't like dogs who melt if I look at them the wrong way) and still show the sort of constructive/useful/desirable hardness.


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

And I am asking because from your posts it appears you equate a dog who listens to his handler as one who will pop off the bite if his leash is accidentally yanked.


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

So you picked the vids, posted them on here specifically asking for people's comments/opinions/input on what they see happening, then when people posted their views which were different from yours (and you expected this) you jump on the holier then thou rock chastize people for making guesses and assumptions, take your ball and go home???




Joby Becker said:


> all great posts. lots of varying opinions and assumptions, made by myself and everyone involved that has been contributed.
> 
> it is really amazing when one reads back and just looks at everything that everyone has said about it, the variation. from harsh and abusive, to not harsh, it is not abusive,and the dog doesnt even view things as a correction. there is a plan, and then there isnt, to the guys are just idiots and cant train a dog period, the dog is hard the dog is not hard, the dog will not make a good protection dog... etc. etc...
> 
> ...


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Jody Butler said:


> Title of the thread training in.........
> 
> Just imagine training without it all and gradually bringing it over time and if needed, I'd like to see that comparison and at 18months.
> 
> I won't comment as it means nothing anyway, however I wonder once mature the balance this dog will have to do anywork other than what it is trained to do.


 

what is this post actually saying?? - can you re-word for the stupid.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> what is this post actually saying?? - can you re-word for the stupid.


 
*Dog learning in stress, corrections, conflict, compulsion...* Now what if the dog was LEARNING whithout all this is what I meant, then add the stress and conflict, later along with pressure and problem solving, then if needed, corrections, compulsion......etc.

With all the drive the dog had instead of thinking its a hard dog and can take it, use the drive to your benefit to focus the dog on the task and teach the dog. Allow the dog to learn A B and then C. In that order. In the end I think you will end up with a better balanced product.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

ok done smacking the dog around, she loved it 

Will try to button this up neatly...



Marta Wajngarten said:


> Joby Q for you...
> While I dont think it's happening here on purpose, I'm on board with you for hardening a dog, or a term I would rather use desensitizing a dog to what ever fighting attacking stepping on a leash etc... But do you think that a dog has to be handler hard in order to be environment/decoy hard? Or do you think it is possible to have a balance of a dog that is sensitive enough to handler input that training is not a constant fight (personal preferences aside because I honestly don't like dogs who melt if I look at them the wrong way) and still show the sort of constructive/useful/desirable hardness.


I do not think a dog has to be handler hard to be hard in other ways. I think there can be a nice balance yes. Although what I think or like, or anyone else thinks or likes, does not have any real bearing on what is being done with this dog by the people that are training her, because we are not training her.



Marta Wajngarten said:


> And I am asking because from your posts it appears you equate a dog who listens to his handler as one who will pop off the bite if his leash is accidentally yanked.


No actually I did not mean to imply that at all, that statement was a direct response to Maren Jones, who asked a question as to why a person might want to harden a dog up towards the handling. She herself has a dog, that did pop off of the bite on the field for that very reason, so I thought that answer was appropriate to her question. She then replied that she would rather have a more sensitive dog. I personally do not think a dog has to be sensitive at all and can also be super handler hard toward corrections, and still work well under normal handler input, if trained properly. I do not equate being handler hard to NOT being trainable or that the dog will not take direction.

It was also implied in her question that there will be some long term serious conflict with the dog, and the handler, which I do not have enough input to properly address, so I did not respond to that portion.



Marta Wajngarten said:


> So you picked the vids, posted them on here specifically asking for people's comments/opinions/input on what they see happening, then when people posted their views which were different from yours (and you expected this) you jump on the holier then thou rock chastize people for making guesses and assumptions, take your ball and go home???


No, I firmly and obviously (I thought) included myself in the category of making guesses, and did not (I thought) jump on any holier than thou rock.. 

In case you have not noticed I am pretty much trying to debate/discuss things with more than just one or two people, and to be honest I just cant keep up, the discussion has turned in too many directions, and too many comments were made, assumptions and theories have come into play, contradicting posts, for me to continue trying to give my opinions on, without wildly speculating, or becoming insulting, one person actually went from the puppy showing no form of hardness that was noticeable, to the dog needing to be corrected with very forceful prong corrections, which will not work in thier opinion, and then logically came to the conclusion that the dog is destined to be fried by maximum electricity, on an ecollar... I cannot really argue with that logic, because I do not see that as making much sense really.

I also am pretty sure that the methods being used in some of these videos do not paint a good picture of what the entire scope of the training methods that will be used, will look like. They are just snaphsots... 

I cannot really say what will be needed to train the dog, how it will be trained, how well it will listen to its handler, and how the correction/compulsion will be handled in the future.

I do not train with these guys, or train exactly like them, although I have used small amounts of some of those methods.. 

I just picked this video off of youtube, thought the training looked like it will work out for the trainers, liked the pup alot, and saw some things that I knew would be considered harsh and possibly abusive by some, and wanted to see what people thought, and what they would say...

the best I can figure out is that most people do not think the corrections are harsh, while others think it is outright abuse, most agree that the people in the video do not know how to train a dog, and for the most part the dog does not appear to be anything special, maybe even faulty by some peoples standards. 

I am happy walking away with that... If updates on the dog become available, I will share them.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Jody Butler said:


> *Dog learning in stress, corrections, conflict, compulsion...* Now what if the dog was LEARNING whithout all this is what I meant, then add the stress and conflict, later along with pressure and problem solving, then if needed, corrections, compulsion......etc.
> 
> With all the drive the dog had instead of thinking its a hard dog and can take it, use the drive to your benefit to focus the dog on the task and teach the dog. Allow the dog to learn A B and then C. In that order. In the end I think you will end up with a better balanced product.


 
thanks, i get this version.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> No actually I did not mean to imply that at all, that statement was a direct response to Maren Jones, who asked a question as to why a person might want to harden a dog up towards the handling. She herself has a dog, that did pop off of the bite on the field for that very reason, so I thought that answer was appropriate to her question. She then replied that she would rather have a more sensitive dog. I personally do not think a dog has to be sensitive at all and can also be super handler hard toward corrections, and still work well under normal handler input, if trained properly. I do not equate being handler hard to NOT being trainable or that the dog will not take direction.


I don't mind him being sensitive to me because 99 times out of 100, if he is getting a leash correction during bite work, it's probably cause he did something he was not supposed to, like reward rebiting on his own or something similar and he's not allowed to stay on the bite. So I am not surprised he did and not particularly upset with it either. He's not super sensitive either. He doesn't shut down with a correction (accidental or not) and as you saw, he went back on the bite, so no harm done. He's a sport dog, so I'd rather keep that responsiveness instead of having to really whale on an extremely handler hard dog to correct him. That gets...unpleasant. If I had an extremely handler hard dog and I was doing protection sport, I'd probably get a new dog.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I applaud the discussion with no out and out insults, name calling, etc. We CAN push the bar when we disagree with one another in a civilized manner. 
Note I didn't say in a civil manner. :grin:;-)


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Who owns this dog? I couldn't contact the video holder via YouTube and would like to make contact with her owner or speak with someone who has seen her in person. 

PM me please if you know. I'm not interested in seeing this info posted here, nor do I think it belongs on this thread.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

confused, which vid are we referring to??


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> confused, which vid are we referring to??


If you are addressing me, I was referring to Betsie.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

now i'm more confused??


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

How can something that doesn't concern you confuse you? Move along Peter, I'm sure there's road kill elsewhere on this forum for you to speculate about and comment on.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Nicole Stark said:


> How can something that doesn't concern you confuse you? Move along Peter, I'm sure there's road kill elsewhere on this forum for you to speculate about and comment on.


 
ok


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