# The state of the GSD.



## Gerald Guay (Jun 15, 2010)

Being doing a lot of reading lately about the state of the GSD around the world and in particular the diminishing quality of the working lines.
Some authors mention that Schutzhund and IPO are insufficient tests for our dogs. After having done a year of French Ringsport I tend to agree with this affirmation. 

Some breeders are trying to preserve the old Czech and DDR lines. The SV2000 group in Germany are trying hard to improve the dogs there. Koos Hassing seems to work hard at producing good dogs.

So I'm asking you all to assess the state of the breed in your area. Are we still losing ground to the the Belgian breeds? Have you seen an improvement in the GSD for your specific needs in your work or sport? How are we now comparing in KNVP say as compared to 10 years ago. Has anyone evaluated the GSDs doing French Ring in France?

Thanks for your input.

Gerald


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## Lloyd Kasakoff (Jun 15, 2008)

We compete in Mondio. 

We are breeding working dogs. 

We bred our girl to Sam, the World Champion WUSV dog. 

Our male is breeding to a Sam daughter...


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Gerald,

I assume you mean *R*SV 2000!! 

I am always surprised by these everlasting questions. Ringsports are not big in Germany, Mondio is not officially allowed (correct me if I'm wrong).

Try the RSV 2000 site - you can see what is happening there - although unfortunately not everything is in English. However, to look at the stud dogs you don't need to know the language. "Zuchtrüden" "Zuchthundinnen".

I'm 100% certain that the serious Germans, Swiss, Austrian, etc. breeders do not test their dogs by Schutzhhund / IPO trial standards. In fact, I know so.

Allow me a counter question:

Where are all the "fantastic" GSDs, (the "fantastic" applies to the USA importers, male and female) imported to the USA and their litters over the last twenty or so years? Were they mated to inferior males / bitches? 
I can't believe that the breeders on the Continent imported only trash? 

I lastly trained at a club that had 50-50 Malinois and GSDs and the GSDs were equal in performance. The GSD now being bred over here would be physically capable of competing in Ring Sports but here in Switzerland where we have Mondio, the Malinois has the upper hand.

Gerald, come over and see for yourself :-D


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## Gerald Guay (Jun 15, 2010)

Gillian,

It's good news when you state that the GSD is not doing to bad in your country in sport. I think sports are good hobbies but not always a mirror of the dog as an effective working dog.

I think you are right when you say that some good dogs have been and are here in America. Maybe we don't known enough about the genetics that each dog (male and female) brings to the table when we breed here.
Breeding is not always a synergy. 

However what I'm really trying to find out is if the breed as a whole has improved as a working dog over the last 10 to 20 years. My first contact with the breed was in the late 70's and at that time the dogs seemed harder and calmer. There was more HD then and ED was not a concern.

Thank for your input.

Gerald


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Gerald,

"Not doing too bad" is an understatement!!

As for breeding for sport alone, this is not true. No police force here on the continent, as far as I am aware of has its own kennels. The service dogs are taken from serious breeders for sports and police, trained in the first months with the many sports' dogs clubs and then selected for specific training (2 years) in the police force.

The serious breeders breed for police and sport and *definitely* do not aoply the Schutzhund or IPO trials as thier tests.

I honestly fail to see how "some" people over the pond think they have insight into the Swiss, German, Austrian etc. breeding programmes.

I still would like an answer as to what happened to well known breeders' dogs imported to the USA. I repeat, they cannot all have been "trash".


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Gerald,

As for HD, this is practically not a problem in Switzerland and Germany if you go to a serious breeder, of which there are plenty.

Of course I'm talking about "Leistungshunde".

How can you say ED was not a problem when it never entered the equation? Some dogs went lame, some didn't.

Sorry if I'm getting "bratty" but unqualified opinions are driving me so.

As a last input, I would never think I was qualified to pass an opinion on USA breeds, especially GSDs. I only ask questions.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

GSD as a whole ?? I'm not understanding this. Just my input.

GSD are used for so many different tasks. As a whole they all can't be ppd nor mwd nor psd. Out of those that are couldn't Be a srevice dog that has to have a temperment that tolerates children etc.... The GSD has been bred for more tasks than most dogs. I don't see the GSD breed as a correct standard for all GSDs. Just because one that isn't bred for a certain job that doesn't mean that this particular dog is no good. What it does mean is that the GSD is a great working dog or a great family pet. In short I wouldn't purchase a VW if I was going to enter the Daytona 500.
Just my opinion.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Why sholuldn't the "correct Standard" apply to all GSDs?

Why shouldn't GSDs bred to be as in the standard "dogs with strong nerves" be pets, police dogs, sport dogs, etc.?


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Why sholuldn't the "correct Standard" apply to all GSDs?
> 
> Why shouldn't GSDs bred to be as in the standard "dogs with strong nerves" be pets, police dogs, sport dogs, etc.?


Sadly there are people that put the priority on looks and movement ware health and character have little matter"Show Dogs"
Then there are the "Working Lines" ware character and health are priority so asking about the German Shepherd as a hole its not so good I would say its divided and in my opinion should be split. Nether side gives two shits about the other. I will drink the RSV 2000 Kool-Aid


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Why shouldn't GSDs bred to be as in the standard "dogs with strong nerves" be pets said:


> Excellent in theory and some follow "that 'standard" but that's where everything falls apart. Some folks want the unsocial dog that nobody but family can go near. Some want the high drive sporty dog over everything else. Some want the kid friendly dog that will bark at the back fence.
> In theory all the breeders would be looking for that balanced "dog with strong nerves, be pets, police dogs, sport dogs, etc". The genetic scramble of breeding and individual breeders choices/reasons will never allow it.
> I have to agree with Jerry that there are to many uses for the GSD to toss one out because it doesn't fit exactly what the individual interprets as correct.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Excellent in theory and some follow "that 'standard" but that's where everything falls apart. Some folks want the unsocial dog that nobody but family can go near. Some want the high drive sporty dog over everything else. Some want the kid friendly dog that will bark at the back fence.
> In theory all the breeders would be looking for that balanced "dog with strong nerves, be pets, police dogs, sport dogs, etc". The genetic scramble of breeding and individual breeders choices/reasons will never allow it.
> I have to agree with Jerry that there are to many uses for the GSD to toss one out because it doesn't fit exactly what the individual interprets as correct.


 Hence the lable "utility dog" and why there NEEDS to be structured venues ware the Korung's, Breed Surveys, and any titles obtained here are the examples 
SchH1,2,3-Schutzhund includes three different phases which are tracking, obedience, and protection. A dog must pass all three phases and have an overall passing score to earn a SchH title. The dog only has to compete once and pass to earn the title, versus AKC obedience which requires three passing scores under three different judges.
* FH-Trailing Dog (separate title and competition from the SchH tracking.)
FH2-Higher level of Trailing Dog competition.
INT-International SchH title. This term is often used interchangeably with the IP or IPO title (If anyone reading this has a clear concise explanation of the differences between these titles, please email me so I can add this information.)
DPO-Police Dog competition title
AD-Endurance test sometimes represented as a separate title, but required as part of the breed survey process in Germany.
BDH-Railroad Service Dog
BpDH 1 & 2- Railway Police Dog title
B-Begleithunde-Companion dog-title required in recent years for a dog to being earning Schutzhund titles, consisting of basic obedience, control, and test of courage.
BFH-Guide Dog for the Blind
DH-Service Dog
DPH-Service Police Dog
GRH-Border Patrol Dog
HGH-Herding Dog training title
LawH or LwH-Avalanche Dog
MH-Army Messenger Dog-often seen in historical pedigrees, especially 1940’s on back to the breed’s beginnings.
PDH-Police Dog PFP 1&2-Police Tracking Dog
PH-Polizeihund-More commonly seen police dog title PSH1,2,3-DDR(East German title)-I believe that it is similar to the PSP title.
PSP1,2,&3-Police Schutzhund dog)
RtH-Rescue Dog
SH-Red Cross Dog
SuchH-Search Dog
WH-Watch Dog
ZFH-Customs Tracking Dog
ZH-Customs Dog
ZPr-Seen in very old pedigrees, meaning that the dog in question had passed the breed survey of that time.*
*My bet is 95% of the people that own a German Shepherd have never seen this list or give it any regard.](*,)*
*How many people breeding Working German Shepherd Dogs even do a Breed Survey or bother titling there dogs here in the US using a structured breeding standard other the BYBreeding ](*,) *
*Any working standards that have been followed end America and then we bitch about how our Shepherd is going down the toilet.](*,)](*,)](*,)*
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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Great post Mike. That's what I'm talking about.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

A dog bred to the standard was a versatile do it all dog--hence the phrase jack of all trades. I would ask Gillian, those dogs bred for police/sport--are they also reliable in public and w/ children. I've asked this before, with the emphasis on and preference for low thresholds, what have you lost in other characteristics.


Terrasita


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## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

Mike,

Besides the three Sch. titles and FH titles what other tests on your list are available to North Americans?

I think overall the GSD breed is a mess. I think most people don't want a GSD, they just want a dog that looks like one. Most people aren't active enough or can't be bothered to put the time in required to train a working dog. The bigger problem is these weak examples are everywhere and most people believe that's what a GSD should be. I know a couple of people with weak nerved POS show lines that confirm this. They are always telling me that most people don't want dogs like yours, they want black and tan pets with no drive. Unfortunately, the majority of breeders breed this type of dog because they sell. 

I also think many sport breeders are just as guilty as the show/pet breeders for deviating from the standard. These dogs are flashy, have prey overload and are bred to score high in trials, with little regard to the balance of drive and temperament the GSD are supposed to posses. Before anyone gets defensive, I said many and not all.

There are good breeders out there producing solid versitile GSD and these are the only people preserving the breed for the future IMO.


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## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> A dog bred to the standard was a versatile do it all dog--hence the phrase jack of all trades. I would ask Gillian, those dogs bred for police/sport--are they also reliable in public and w/ children. I've asked this before, with the emphasis on and preference for low thresholds, what have you lost in other characteristics.
> 
> 
> Terrasita


I think if dogs are bred for low thresholds with little regard for character there will be problems, such as loss of judgement, strength of nerve and control. There obviously needs to be a balance, because high threshold dogs can't perform well in many roles either.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Adam Rawlings said:


> Mike,
> 
> Besides the three Sch. titles and FH titles what other tests on your list are available to North Americans?
> 
> ...


And this why the high prey dogs need to be seen, sharp dogs need to be seen, high and low drive dogs need to be seen, they all need to be in the gene pool and documented observed scored rated to maintain the breed. They have guided the blind and they have guarded our homeland and flocks they have many facets to maintain we need them all. This is the beauty of a great German Shepherd Dog


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## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

Mike Scheiber said:


> And this why the high prey dogs need to be seen, sharp dogs need to be seen, high and low drive dogs need to be seen, they all need to be in the gene pool and documented observed scored rated to maintain the breed. They have guided the blind and they have guarded our homeland and flocks they have many facets to maintain we need them all. This is the beauty of a great German Shepherd Dog


I agree with what your saying, these are variations in the GSD and can even be seen in a litter of pups. I just think breeding specifcally for any one of the traits you've mentioned with little regard to the "total package" is the problem.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

What is in your opinion, the total package? I really don't think there is a total package in much of anything. I think that variety is the spice of life. Everybody can't be running backs. We need linemen too. Together there is a total package. The GSD is the total package. Many of them can be more than one thing or do more than one job. Few of them can do it all, wish all could but they can't.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> A dog bred to the standard was a versatile do it all dog--hence the phrase jack of all trades. I would ask Gillian, those dogs bred for police/sport--are they also reliable in public and w/ children. I've asked this before, with the emphasis on and preference for low thresholds, what have you lost in other characteristics.
> 
> 
> Terrasita


I know of police and sport dogs, *however bred with strong nerves*, that are as safe around children as any dog can be (you can answer this yourself). Our police dogs live with the family over here with no detriment to working abilities, sport dogs too.

The sad thing is not all dogs are bred to the standard but police and sport dogs are more likely to be bred to the standard and above.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

On the other hand Terrasita, what do you mean by "reliable with children"?

My younger GSD adores children and adults and his protection work is excellent. However, I've seen him get annoyed by an adult that tried to put him in the clinch by hugging him.

For me, no dog is completelly reliable with children so why should the GSD be?


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## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

Jerry Lyda said:


> What is in your opinion, the total package? I really don't think there is a total package in much of anything. I think that variety is the spice of life. Everybody can't be running backs. We need linemen too. Together there is a total package. The GSD is the total package. Many of them can be more than one thing or do more than one job. Few of them can do it all, wish all could but they can't.


I don't want to come across like these are my own ideas, they just happen to be philosophies that I agree with.

I'm not talking about the results of breeding, but dogs selected for breeding. The total package for me balance of prey & defensive drives, solid nerves, proper character and a versatile dog that will produce dogs for any venue. It's obviously easier said then done, but if the pendulum swings to far either way from center than certain traits are lost. If the breed goes off in 10 different directions from the original standards and there are no dogs with the all round characteristics of GSD are left, how long will it take to bring it back through breeding? In a solid working line litter there will be quarterbacks, linemen, linebackers and water boys, but if I breed to produce linemen generation after generation, how many quarterbacks will be in a litter? Most likely only linemen, water boys and the occassional linebacker or quarterback.

There are tons of breeders with working lines, some are devoted to sport, pets, police and some devoted to breeding all round dogs. I just wonder based on the amount of dogs bred in North America why it's so tough for police departments to find good candidates? Is it policing has changed or is it the dogs have changed?


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

_For me, no dog is completelly reliable with children so why should the GSD be?_

A dog of solid nerve and character should be rock solid around children. They're a companion animal after all who owe their very existence to human.

In my experience, you get dogs who are completely reliable around children, dogs who can be trusted in the company of children 100%. That'll probably sound shocking to many on here I'm sure, but the folks who didn't learn about dogs from a book or a trainer may know what I'm talking about.

That is the environment I grew up in, raised with dogs and other animals, I knew plenty of kids who shared a similar upbringing without significant incidence and all this paranoia of children eating dogs.

I've had dogs I would trust reliably, and others I would not trust quite so reliably.


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## Jerry Cudahy (Feb 18, 2010)

Working GSD are not having any real problems. If there is a problem it is newbie owners with baseless expectations. Thinking a GSD is a GSD and the same gsd does it all.

What a crook of shit for thinking.

Yes a breed that can do many tasks. Each of these tasks though are from different breeding genetics tailored to the job needed for. 

I am a Malinois fan through to the core. 

Guess which one I keep close if the crap hits the fan.

None of mine.

My GSD Enzo is the pooch I want to be taking care of my wife or protecting the property and kennel.

Although he is hell on Coyotes. Too Frigin bad he has a bad attitude on the yotes.

Same dog can play with the grandkids, allowed friends and cats.


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## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

Jerry Cudahy said:


> Working GSD are not having any real problems. If there is a problem it is newbie owners with baseless expectations. Thinking a GSD is a GSD and the same gsd does it all.


If there are no real problems, why is it police departments complain about the availability of suitable dogs?


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## Jerry Cudahy (Feb 18, 2010)

Adam Rawlings said:


> If there are no real problems, why is it police departments complain about the availability of suitable dogs?


Jezz Adam, go visit the RCMP Breeding and Training Kennel in Alberta. Your close .

If a PSD Unit is having problems getting good dogs. Likely it is the broker they are contracted to.

Brokers are far from dumb. They are in to make money. A lot of PSD Units have no money to buy dogs.

Some pencil pusher upstairs equates the cost to outfit a cop and vehical along with the cost for training the officer and cuts corners on the dog purchase. 

Do you know how many times I hear the term donation or have we checked the pound yet.

The real working K9 cop and the admin cop are always at odds.

This has more to do with cops not getting the right dogs.

Often the cop who needs a better dog than offered from the dull brass. Stands up and spends his own money to get the goods he needs. Then donates the dog to the city so his ass is at least with the real goods.


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## Jerry Cudahy (Feb 18, 2010)

And Adam you just blew my once a year stand up for the cops. :wink:


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Jerry Cudahy said:


> Jezz Adam, go visit the RCMP Breeding and Training Kennel in Alberta. Your close.


What does that mean ?


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## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

Jerry Cudahy said:


> Jezz Adam, go visit the RCMP Breeding and Training Kennel in Alberta. Your close .
> 
> If a PSD Unit is having problems getting good dogs. Likely it is the broker they are contracted to.
> 
> ...


The RCMP is an exception to the rule, they have their own program. However, they still purchase dogs from outside sources to meet the demand. Some of the guys on here have mentioned it has become increasingly difficult to find suitable dogs. If there was an abundance of high quality dogs suitable for police work the price wouldn't be constantly increasing. Is the problem dual purpose quality dogs are being bought up by privately or by big budget organizations or is it there's more buyers and money in the breeding of sport and show dogs?


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## Jerry Cudahy (Feb 18, 2010)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> What does that mean ?


Que pensez-vous qu'il signifie ?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I could be way off base, I have only owned a couple GSD...

But a "working" dog that is suitable for a PSD, may be quite different than a supposed "working line" dog that is suitable for a family dog....

it is give and take...

as much as this board does not cater to "PET" people, there are an awful lot of people that assume any good working dog should also be able to double as a house dog for a family of possible idiots...


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Jerry Cudahy said:


> Que pensez-vous qu'il signifie ?


I wanted to know what you meant, not what I thought you meant.


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## Jerry Cudahy (Feb 18, 2010)

Adam Rawlings said:


> The RCMP is an exception to the rule, they have their own program. However, they still purchase dogs from outside sources to meet the demand. Some of the guys on here have mentioned it has become increasingly difficult to find suitable dogs. If there was an abundance of high quality dogs suitable for police work the price wouldn't be constantly increasing. Is the problem dual purpose quality dogs are being bought up by privately or by big budget organizations or is it there's more buyers and money in the breeding of sport and show dogs?


Your on to my point. The RCMP is way beyound the buy now for service today mentality.

They are looking at tommorow as to what they need

They buy litters from local breeders, breed litters and have their own in house officers traveling Europe to purchase adult dogs for stock ahead of the crunch of having to run like chickens with their heads cut off.

They are also the training kennel that provides countless Working PSD in General, Bomb, Drug Dogs and Cadaver for not just their own needs. They povide finished product for PSD Units all over the world as well as Canadian units accross Canada not RCMP.

Why can they do this.

Money, They have it.

Which is exactly what I said in my above post.

Most K9 Units do not have enough Doo ray me.

Economics is what prevents less fortunate budgets from being able to get good dogs.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Jerry Cudahy said:


> Jezz Adam, go visit the RCMP Breeding and Training Kennel in Alberta. Your close .
> 
> If a PSD Unit is having problems getting good dogs. Likely it is the broker they are contracted to.
> 
> ...


Jerry is on point. (I was starting to get worried but he pulled through )


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

will fernandez said:


> Jerry is on point.


He's on crack, he is the love child of Michael Ignatief and Barack Obama....both radical liberals and from the USA.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> He's on crack, he is the love child of Michael Ignatief and Barack Obama....both radical liberals and from the USA.


Gerry

you would be surprised on the number of agencies ( in my part of the US) that actually ask for dogs with less of a motor. 

(just to let you know--I dont believe the right or the left...I like to think for myself)


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## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

Jerry Cudahy said:


> Your on to my point. The RCMP is way beyound the buy now for service today mentality.
> 
> They are looking at tommorow as to what they need
> 
> ...


I don't disagree with you at all on the points made above, but look at how many GSD are bred world wide, based on the number of dogs and kennels you would think finding suitable working dogs wouldn't be a problem (after all it's what they were intended to do).

My original point was if more kennels bred to the original standard there would be more suitable dogs available and this is the reason I think the breed in general is a mess. The jobs you've listed above pretty much require the same basic qualities a working GSD should have. If perticular traits such as drive level or hardness are more pronounced in certain lines without compromising the overall character of the GSD there is no problem. It's dogs bred with a single purpose in mind like sport or show that is hurting the breed overall and it seems to be the trend. 

If you disagree that's ok, it's just my view on things.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

First of all when talking about GSDs like someone said before, leave the show lines out they are as related to working lines as lions are to deers.
As for the working lines, people don't understand that breeding two strong nerved, high drive dogs does not mean you won't get some pups suitable as pets.We will never run out of 'pet quality' dogs. On the other hand when you start breeding for 'sound' pets only, the police dog types will eventually die out. Also a high drive dog is not incapable of being a good family dog with the proper upbringing, some days ago i saw a police k9 from the st paul police k9 unit in a park with kids all over, petting, stroking and all and the dog behaved like any decent labrador would, the same dog was tracked down a suspect through bushes and concrete and gave the bad guy a good beating.-talk about an all round dog.
I have to admit that right now i think a higher percentage of malis are good for work and sport but if you want a good GSD, there are still many. Malis are great dogs but people are also cashing in on its popularity now.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

I'll agree with Jerry that if you have enough money to start your own breeding program for GSDs and on top of that have enough money to afford sending your own K9 guys overseas enough times to snapp up every new strong GSD that pops up , that you can get some very good GSDs for police work . But think about the time , money and gamble that's needed for that . 

I disagree that it's a broker problem . Having worked 2 GSDs in my 14 years as a K9 handler/trainer and trained more GSDs then any other breed for PSD work , I prefer a good GSD over any other breed . 

There was a day when we could simply send our brokers (ex Police K9 guys) overseas a few times and get very solid green PSD candidates (GSDs) . Usually we need 12-16 some years twice that , for a class and most of the candidates were pretty solid . That doesn't happen anymore . Most are ok with the occassional good or great dog . 

We are one of the last training facilities that train mostly GSDs for police work in the U.S. . IMO , though I love the breed , we've held on too long . Last year of the 3 new handlers we trained just for our department only 1 still has the GSD she started with and that one is marginal at best IMO . 1 handler is on her second GSD and the 3rd went through 2 GSDs and has just been issued a Mal and will go through our 13 week PSD course starting in March . We have a 21 Patrol K9 Unit and this Mal will be only the 4th Mal in the history of our K9 unit that dates back to the 1950's . We've trained alot of Mals for other agencies though . 

It's not like it's a simple as a broker/vendor going over there offerring 8 grand for a green GSD and being shown a bunch of average GSDs with the seller saying " For $5,000 more I'll show you the good ones I got hidden in the back . " . If it was we would be paying the asking price for a solid green GSD .

From my experiance good and great GSDs are getting harder and harder to find . Are there still some out there ? You bet just not as many .


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## Jerry Cudahy (Feb 18, 2010)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> He's on crack, he is the love child of Michael Ignatief and Barack Obama....both radical liberals and from the USA.


 your the crack head goofball, Ignatief is the leader of the opposition party for the Federal Government of Canada. I am in Ottawa in the near future. This is so funny. He will love it.

He is from Canada, 100%. Your whacked, he taught Americans in University.

Maybe u have studied him at Harvard, Cambridge, Oxford, U of California,, U of London, the London school of Economics and the u of Toronto.

likely your still in vocational pre school.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

I'll have to correct myself . We actually had 4 new K9 Handlers last year . The 4th has a VERY good GSD . Guess he's been doing so good I forgot it was a new dog . Unfortunately that team is the exception now when it use to be the rule .


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Jerry Cudahy said:


> your the crack head goofball, Ignatief is the leader of the opposition party for the Federal Government of Canada. I am in Ottawa in the near future. This is so funny. He will love it.
> 
> He is from Canada, 100%. Your whacked, he taught Americans in University.
> 
> ...


 
I'm sentimental if you know what I mean, I love the country but I can't stand the scene....and I'm neither left or right I'm just stayin home tonite LOL.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

maggie fraser said:


> _For me, no dog is completelly reliable with children so why should the GSD be?_
> 
> A dog of solid nerve and character should be rock solid around children. They're a companion animal after all who owe their very existence to human.
> 
> ...


Maggie, I didn't learn about dogs just from a book or a trainer like many other of my colleagues but we would never say our dogs are completely reliable with children.

As long as they're under control, ok. But even then, what if your dog is on the lead and you have one or two kids around you - one comes up behind the dog and pinches it? It could bite out of surprised reaction. I've known dogs bite the neighbour's children because one of the kids got physical with a kid from the dog's family.

A lot of the dog bites have taken place in the home. Not all these dogs had bad nerves.

It's not just the dogs - we all know our own dogs but you cannot always perceive how children, even adults, are going to behave.

I got my first bite as a small child for stroking a dog after being told not to! I saw the first dog, without warning, bite a child at primary school. This dog was always around us BTW.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Maggie, I didn't learn about dogs just from a book or a trainer like many other of my colleagues but we would never say our dogs are completely reliable with children.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Tommy O'Hanlon (Feb 21, 2008)

IMO no dog is to 100% trusted with kids
Tommy


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## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

Jim,

What type of traits are missing in the GSD you see today, compared to the great ones of the past?


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Adam Rawlings said:


> Jim,
> 
> What type of traits are missing in the GSD you see today, compared to the great ones of the past?


Of the past 14 years re Jim's post ? Just clarifying.


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## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

maggie fraser said:


> Of the past 14 years re Jim's post ? Just clarifying.


Yes, just curious to see in his opinion what has changed. 

If any K-9 handler would like to give an opinion, I'm all ears.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

I'll have to disagree. There are some dogs out there that ARE 100% save around children. Would be the last thing on their mind to bite a child. We as responsible dog owners would never think that our dog was one of these. (wink)


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## Jerry Cudahy (Feb 18, 2010)

Unexpected dog bites, kids adults, granny, whoever. Reminds me of my very first Hunter Safety Class.

We were taught that a Gun/Rifle/Bow is a mechanical device prone to failure.

I have always applied the same logic about my and anyones elses dog.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Adam Rawlings said:


> Jim,
> 
> What type of traits are missing in the GSD you see today, compared to the great ones of the past?


The dogs we get now do very well with all the scenting requirements just like in the past from area searching for bad guys , tracking , article searches to detector work . So they are fullfilling the biggest requirement any PSD in the United States needs to and that's as a locating tool . 

But , what I see lacking now is getting the ultra confident dogs we use to get . I'm not seeing as many that bring ALOT of confidence , power and desire to confront and fight a suspect . 

I'm not saying that all GSDs we got in the past were like this . Most were just what I considered average . They did a good job finding what they needed to find and stayed in a fight with a suspect if needed and wanted to fight and confront the suspect . Years ago I'll estimate that out of 12 new K9 candidates in a new patrol K9 class we would have 3-4 K9s that were these ultra confident GSDs , they did there job and then some . The rest of the dogs were average and simply got the job done . 

What I've seen in the past several years is we are lucky to get even 1 of these type of dogs now . Where this is important to us is these were the dogs we used in SWAT teams . Where dogs are required to be very environmentally sound , not confused by extremely difficult terain , obstacles , changing situations ,etc. and must work in searching through teargas and smoke fill environments and have to be able to stay engaged in extended confrontations(fights) with suspects .

Right now my K9 and another will be retired this year . Both were on the SWAT team and we are having a heck of a time finding a replacement from our unit . Some of the stronger dogs are older and the weak link is actually the handler for being considered to be part of the SWAT team . Of the younger dogs in our unit which we have many now we only have 1 dog that fits the bill . The problem with that is the team has only been on the street for a year and we would like to see it get more experiance before being put into the SWAT team . 

That never use to be a problem . We've been lucky because all of the 5 SWAT dogs have been picked years ago and have managed to age very well keeping them in the game longer then expected . But it looks like the bottom has fallen out . 

What I see may happen with our SWAT K9 program if we are unable to find good dogs is either having a smaller group of qualified K9 teams assigned or limiting the use of a K9 in the SWAT team . I know we have been looking at getting Mals or Dutchies that fit the bill . My guess is that will happen in the next few years . It actually has started now. The new Mal we just assigned to our K9 Handler we may have hopes for . The handler is one of our best newer handlers a guy who truely gets dog training and was a great cop prior to K9 and was also on the SWAT team before coming to K9 .

Hope that makes sence .


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## Jerry Cudahy (Feb 18, 2010)

Hey all, with the military needs for good dogs to be deployed in Iraq, Afgan, Etc.

Just this thins the dog pie into much thiner pieces.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Jerry Cudahy said:


> Hey all, with the military needs for good dogs to be deployed in Iraq, Afgan, Etc.
> 
> Just this thins the dog pie into much thiner pieces.


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## Jerry Cudahy (Feb 18, 2010)

maggie fraser said:


>


mathamaticaly, there are less good dogs available to conventional psd to provide dogs for military deployment.


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## Jerry Cudahy (Feb 18, 2010)

Another reason why good gsd are harder to find. There has been a surge in Demining former war zones.

The United Nations has the mandate to provide these efforts worldwide.

Canada was/is the country that was given the lead role in developing the programs that were instituted worldwide.

I personaly know that those who headed up the program for the Canadian Engineers demanded only GSD. There were hundreds of kennels developed to house these gsd on behalf of the United Nations.


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

You will get different answers according who you speak to, some have said for a pretty long time now that the GSD is a sick breed with less drive than the malinois, others have a different opinion and doesn´t feel this is accurate and so alarming as you sometimes hear. Not surprisingly there are some that prefers mals and some that prefers GSDs among k9 handlers.


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## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

Jim,

It makes sence, thanks for taking the time to explain it.


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## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

Erik Berg said:


> You will get different answers according who you speak to, some have said for a pretty long time now that the GSD is a sick breed with less drive than the malinois, others have a different opinion and doesn´t feel this is accurate and so alarming as you sometimes hear. Not surprisingly there are some that prefers mals and some that prefers GSDs among k9 handlers.


If it was a just a matter of preference it wouldn't be that important to discuss. What Jim has described should concern GSD people, these dogs lack the character a solid GSD should posses.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Thanks Jim for the explanation,
I will have to agree with you that in terms of numbers the GSD is having less police k9 prospects. Nate Harves told me in the average GSD litter he would only consider 2 for serious patrol work and many other breeders seem to echo his words. 
On the other hand i don't think its a bad idea to consider new brokers or even try kennels that breed majorly for sport- Vikar, eurosport and jinopo are some of the few czech kennels that still produce some very good dogs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsicFPj0LLI&feature=player_embedded

This is a dog from the Vikar kennels just about 10 months i guess, i don't think this is bad by any working standards.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

These are two dogs from koos hassing, same litter. Max and Manus

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7GhiBeW614 -max

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlqcxcnPJHI - manus

A daughter of max-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8f3PvtEZXVw

Unfortunately, its not these kinds that are popular these days.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

As long as breeders like koos are still alive and still have these kinds of dogs there is still hope. Max didn't have too many litters probably because he didn't go far in sport, notwithstanding the few litters he sired were impressive. Those who are dedicated to the breed should admit that things could be better and work towards achieving a better GSD. There is no gain in having GSD vs mali arguments, two great breeds.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Koos bases a lot of his experience on the famous Breeder, Alfred Hahn, and I think this is one reason he is such a good breeder.

I think we should agree that in the US you have trouble in acquiring good GSDs. However this is no reason to include the GSD *Leistungshundezucht* in Europe in your complaints. On the Leistungshundeforum in Germany you will not find many people complaining.

There are hundreds of good breeders of which you may not have knowledge.

I will not say it's perfect but to say the GSD breed is in a mess the world over is nonsense and is an insult to the serious breeders over here. Why don't you take the time to find out??

The Malinois is still the no. 1 for the police in Europe (I think) but the Malinois breed has its problems, too.

Ignorance is bliss ](*,)


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Koos bases a lot of his experience on the famous Breeder, Alfred Hahn, and I think this is one reason he is such a good breeder.
> 
> I think we should agree that in the US you have trouble in acquiring good GSDs. However this is no reason to include the GSD *Leistungshundezucht* in Europe in your complaints. On the Leistungshundeforum in Germany you will not find many people complaining.
> 
> ...


Our club is full of nice German Shepherd dogs we know ware to look or we know people that know ware to look. I should mention there health seems to be getting better since I started this coming up on 20 years


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## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

Gillian Schuler said:


> .There are hundreds of good breeders of which you may not have knowledge.
> I will not say it's perfect but to say the GSD breed is in a mess the world over is nonsense and is an insult to the serious breeders over here. Why don't you take the time to find out??
> 
> The Malinois is still the no. 1 for the police in Europe (I think) but the Malinois breed has its problems, too.
> ...


Gillian,

My comment was a general statement and an overall observation of the breed. People or kennels that breed real working dogs shouldn't be offended. I never said these dogs don't exist, it just seems they're not available in great numbers. Again, I'm not talking about dogs that perform well on a sports field.

Is the Malinois the No. 1 dog police dog in Europe due to preference or rather the availability of good dogs?


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Adam Rawlings said:


> Gillian,
> 
> My comment was a general statement and an overall observation of the breed. People or kennels that breed real working dogs shouldn't be offended. I never said these dogs don't exist, it just seems they're not available in great numbers. Again, I'm not talking about dogs that perform well on a sports field.
> 
> Is the Malinois the No. 1 dog police dog in Europe due to preference or rather the availability of good dogs?


 
There has been plenty of reading here in the UK about the decreasing quality/availability of gsds for police work in more recent years. I believe many dog sections have their own breeding programmes now which have been addressing this issue, as traditionally many dogs were gifted to the police by the public. There are not a lot of malinois as police dogs here.

Just an observation and my 2 1/2p.


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

The malinois is not in the majority when it comes to policework in europe, maybe in belgium but not in scandinavia and I would assume not in germany either. It´s not like european policedogs are the same either, some countries have mostly multiple task dogs and some more single purpose so the demands may be different.

I guess we can say as a whole the GSD have problems, most are not breeding for work because the minority wants dog for work. On the other hand there are more people breeding GSDs for work than malinois I suppose.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Erik Berg said:


> The malinois is not in the majority when it comes to policework in europe, maybe in belgium but not in scandinavia and I would assume not in germany either. It´s not like european policedogs are the same either, some countries have mostly multiple task dogs and some more single purpose so the demands may be different.
> 
> I guess we can say as a whole the GSD have problems, most are not breeding for work because the minority wants dog for work. On the other hand there are more people breeding GSDs for work than malinois I suppose.


The owner of this kennel is a NATO bomb dog handler from GERMANY www.von-der-staatsmacht.de/ the dog he handles is a Malinois. I asked Stefan WTF? he said to me MONEY! NATO GERMANY can get Malinois for less money. I asked no other reason he said no other reason the good Shepherds that can do the work cost more money. He also said that there are still a good number of working dogs ending up in pet homes that come from some of less famous kennels, they are not able to sell and find working homes for them. 
So sounds like the working lines German Shepherd is alive in Germany.
So maybe nothing has changed there keeping the good ones unless they can get there asking price and selling us the shit sort of like its always been.


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## CJ Neubert (Sep 7, 2009)

That and the fact that still a lot of dept.'s won't even look at a donated dog no matter how good it is, instead they firmly believe they must spend 10K for a dog.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Gillian-I hope i didn't give the impression that malis are better or anything like that. I love GSDs and am even sometimes biased. I, just like many other people hope things will change for the better.
A Nigerian trainer told me the same thing about small breeders in Germany producing very good dogs, that's like music in my ears.
@Mike, i hope you get a nice pup from staatsmacht later.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

No, heck, no problem, Oluwatobi (can't we call you just "Tobi"??.)

I just get narked when I hear that the whole GSD breed "ist im Eimer"!!

"small" has the idea of "backyard" breeders, though! 

Sue de Cicero mated a dog to a Haus Pixner dog if I remember rightly! Sue could give some info on German breeders.

We have a Sid Haus Pixner son who is excellent in protection, challenges the helper in a nasty way but is a social butterfly - there are such dogs!! He is very vocal and drives us mad at times but he, and his litter all turned up for protection at 12 months and they all excelled. 

Bomber Wolfsheim "grandchildren" are proving good.

Eugen Ecker's "Fasanerie" dogs have made their mark.

I won't broach on LEO dogs. This is a very different venue and I can understand the problems of having to import them. A sport dog, well trained, can often excel but an LEO has to rely on his dog - a huge difference in my mind.

Just look at RSV 2000's stud dogs!

Although, to be honest, the SV breeders have also produced and are producing good dogs. Neither the SV nor the RSV can "produce" serious-minded breeders who want dogs with natural aggression and handlers that are able to control them!!!


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

There is a small GSD breeder in WTN. Her kennel has a German sounding name of course ( I guess that is a requirement, ha ha) I've trained two of her dogs and am familiar with 3 others. I'm very impressed. The price has always been right, problem is the numbers are very small.

DFrost


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Gillian, sure. Everyone calls me Tobi. Full name means God is Great. Tobi just means great or big, doesn't matter. Tobi is my name!!


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