# Rehome or put it down



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

I have been getting e-mails from a woman with an female Aussie Cattle dog. This thing is biting the feet and hands of guests. It has been rehomed several times for this same behavior. At what point should it be put down rather than spending time trying to change the behaviors? My way of thinking: NO DOG should feel like it can challenge the pack leadership and bite the handler or any family member.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Rehome to a ranch. They are not smart enough for a cattle dog.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Got another e-mail minutes ago...If the dog is biting and you have given it verbals and toys to redirect the behavior and assuming you can bold up to put an e-collar on it, rehoming is the only other option...wthout killing it Blaming the current owner isn't it. Understand that it has been rehomed before, x2. When the dog is biting and nipping the feet and legs of guests, it needs a coming to Jesus meeting or a new home. Children should NEVER be place second to a dog!


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Howard Gaines III said:


> I have been getting e-mails from a woman with an female Aussie Cattle dog. This thing is biting the feet and hands of guests. It has been rehomed several times for this same behavior. At what point should it be put down rather than spending time trying to change the behaviors? My way of thinking: NO DOG should feel like it can challenge the pack leadership and bite the handler or any family member.


A. Rehome when the owner cannot ( or will not) effectively manage the situation. (Ummm... crate?! ](*,))

B. Euthanize when training does not show sufficient improvement in the behavior to demonstrate that rehabilitation is possible (see below), or when the training must be so "hard" that it will ruin the dog's quality of life for a long enough period of time that euthanasia is the kinder option.

When positive reinforcement, negative punishment, positive punishment, and negative reinforcement (in that order, by a trainer experienced in working with aggressive dogs) do not dimish the intensity or frequency of agreesion within 20 - 30 minutes, it's time to euthanize.

Euthanize when the owner cannot or will not effectively manage the situation and is unwilling or unable to train the dog effectively.

Rehome or euthanize when the risk of injury to people is too great. (Don't try to rehabilitate an aggressive do in a home with kids, for example.)


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Anne Vaini said:


> A. Rehome when the owner cannot ( or will not) effectively manage the situation. (Ummm... crate?! ](*,)) *Anne I agree and told the girl this...*
> 
> B. Euthanize when training does not show sufficient improvement in the behavior to demonstrate that rehabilitation is possible (see below), or when the training must be so "hard" that it will ruin the dog's quality of life for a long enough period of time that euthanasia is the kinder option.
> 
> ...


 *When a kid is bit and/or the dog bites or trys to bite the owner...my feeling is it's time to put down the critter. I have NEVER been in favor of saving everything, never.*


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Got another e-mail minutes ago...If the dog is biting and you have given it verbals and toys to redirect the behavior and assuming you can bold up to put an e-collar on it, rehoming is the only other option...wthout killing it Blaming the current owner isn't it. Understand that it has been rehomed before, x2. When the dog is biting and nipping the feet and legs of guests, it needs a coming to Jesus meeting or a new home. Children should NEVER be place second to a dog!


HI Howard,

A cattle dog is a working dog. It needs something to do.
A dog with any kind of nipping or biting history should NEVER
be placed in a home with kids under 15 IMHO

Rehoming should include evaluating and retraining if needed.
Selecting an APPROPRIATE home, not just passing the problem on to someone new


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Thomas Barriano said:


> ... A dog with any kind of nipping or biting history should NEVER be placed in a home with kids under 15 IMHO
> 
> Rehoming should include evaluating and retraining if needed.
> Selecting an APPROPRIATE home, not just passing the problem on to someone new


Both of which excellent rules were obviously broken .... since the O.P. has mentioned children twice and since the dog is being passed around like a hot potato.


_"I have NEVER been in favor of saving everything, never." _ Of course not. Who with any experience at all is that wide-eyed naive?


Al's wee todd it comment is perfect.


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## Annika Friberg (Mar 27, 2009)

Can you really talk about challenging leadership when the dog is (presumably) an understimulated working dog whose herding instincts are going through the roof - wouldn't most herding dogs' instincts "backfire" in that situation? 

I agree with the people who say to get the dog into an appropriate home - a working home! - if they can't do that (or if the dogs' behaviors persists even though it's getting to herd or hard exercise daily), well then I'd consider putting it down.


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

Without seeing the dog who really knows. Secondly, it doesn't matter how many homes it's been in because most people are completely retarded and can't handle a dog, any kind of dog, do some rescue work and you'll see it for yourself, it's really amazing. 

Some cattle dogs aren't little fluffy pussies. Why does everyone think a dog needs to be social? 2 of mine are and 1 isn't, so what. When guest come over put the dog in it's crate until it's trained. I'll bet the dog has had zero structure in it's life, if it's been in 3 homes that probably means it's had zero structure in 3 different homes, highly probable. It's a scary high percentage of people that can't train simple off leash obedience. The whole "come to jesus meeting" is a human ego thing and manifests it's self in frusration of not being able to communicate to a dog what you're asking of it. Howard, do a simple act of kindness for a dog and take it and train it for free for the lady, it'll probably only take a month or 2 ,


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

I agree with Jeff, this is a handler issue, not dog problem.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

I've experience of a couple of heelers/cattle dogs, fluffy is not a word that I could possibly connect to them in any way. I agree with the appropriate home suggestion in this case, that being a working home and not trained for a pet home. jmo


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## Adi Ibrahimbegovic (Nov 21, 2008)

If this dog is placed on a cattle ranch and he gets to herd, chase and help with the cattle ALL day running around and actualy.. well, working and doing stuff and THEN he gets home drinks a gallon of water and eats a hearty meal... If the dog bites anybody after an honest, hard day's of work (he won't) then shoot him on the spot or euthanize him.

I guarantee that he won't, he'd be happy and content.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Adi Ibrahimbegovic said:


> If the dog bites anybody after an honest, hard day's of work ... then shoot him on the spot or euthanize him.
> 
> I guarantee that he won't, he'd be happy and content.


I like how you say that.  One of mine is a (freindly) drivey squirrelly littlle ****er, until she gets a good, hard physical and mental workout (1.5 hours pulling approx 175 lbs, in high-stress environments, and performing other tasks) - then she's a doll. Curls up in a her little plush bed and snores. :mrgreen:


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

It is not clear to me if this is nipping and biting comming from prey or hearding behavior, or nipping and biting due to fear agression or some other type of resource guarding behavior.

There is a difference in my mind.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> It is not clear to me if this is nipping and biting comming from prey or hearding behavior, or nipping and biting due to fear agression or some other type of resource guarding behavior.
> 
> There is a difference in my mind.


There is no difference to me. I'm dumbfounded by the amount of fear aggression that is tolerated because the owner is concerned about the dog's emotional state. :roll: It IS aggression, and all forms of aggression respond to the same set of training protocol (although the prevention / management may differ).


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Anne Vaini said:


> There is no difference to me. I'm dumbfounded by the amount of fear aggression that is tolerated because the owner is concerned about the dog's emotional state. :roll: It IS aggression, and all forms of aggression respond to the same set of training protocol (although the prevention / management may differ).


I was just wondering if this is a stable dog that just needs something to do, or a basket case. YOU are a good enough trainer to deal with either way...I was thinking about the management protocol being different and who might be getting this dog if it rehomed again, and if it would be worth it. 

I agree it is aggression either way and has to be delt with if the dog is to live.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I agree with Jeff, Al, James & Adi. Give him to a cattle rancher or a hermit who lives in the middle of nowhere - either way, match made in heaven.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

susan tuck said:


> I agree with Jeff, Al, James & Adi. Give him to a cattle rancher or a hermit - either way, match made in heaven.


There is just as large of a difference in an ACD from working stock vs show lines as any other breed, some working stock ACD's are just nasty.

Which is it Howard ?


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

You guys are all crazy, no dog ever went to live on a nice farm or ranch, that’s parent code talk for kicking the dog out of the car on turnpike.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Chris McDonald said:


> You guys are all crazy, no dog ever went to live on a nice farm or ranch, that’s parent code talk for kicking the dog out of the car on turnpike.


:lol:


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## Annika Friberg (Mar 27, 2009)

Anne Vaini said:


> There is no difference to me. I'm dumbfounded by the amount of fear aggression that is tolerated because the owner is concerned about the dog's emotional state. :roll: It IS aggression, and all forms of aggression respond to the same set of training protocol (although the prevention / management may differ).


See I'm confused about this. When a cattle herding dog nips, I never considered even for a moment that it would be fear aggression.

My 9-month-old teenage brat if I don't watch him, will jump sideways on the leash and nip at the heels of joggers in the park - when I look down to correct him, he'll have this stupid grin on his face. Likewise, he'll nip at our heels if he's wound up and if there're kids coming into the house, running around and shouting, he'll have to be really closely monitored. We're obviously letting him know that this is not acceptable behavior and I would crate him if he didn't cut it out at home, but I never saw it as a form of aggression. He's a cattle dog, he nips to make stuff happen, he nips to move things or to let people know he's there. 

I understand the part where management doesn't change - either way it has to stop, especially with kids around. But I would think there's a world of difference between a badly raised herding dog that's excited and nipping at guests because it gets him lots of reactions and attention - or one that is truly aggressive. And follows up with actual bites.

Could you explain what you mean?

And I realize that we have no idea what this particular cattle dog's issues are since none of us have seen him IRL.


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

Chris McDonald said:


> You guys are all crazy, no dog ever went to live on a nice farm or ranch, that’s parent code talk for kicking the dog out of the car on turnpike.


You must be joking. I hope so at least.

The problem with taking the dog to a working farm/ranch is that they are few and far between. Why not try to get the dog into a working home- could be a frisbee competitor, lure coursing, even an agility competitor. Something so the dog can exhaust his natural super high prey drive.

I once had a blue heeler that bit the HELL out of anything that moved. I was lucky and a rancher snatched him up quick. I had purchased him from a working ranch as a frisbee dog but with my daughter being little and her friends it wasn't going to work. Any thing that moved was his. He was a cool dog- he would have been able to compete in Schutzhund had I been in the sport back then.

I bet dollars to donuts that the dog is OK mentally just a super high prey drive not being fully appreciated by the current/last owners.


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## Tammy McDowell (Dec 4, 2006)

Anne Vaini said:


> There is no difference to me. I'm dumbfounded by the amount of fear aggression that is tolerated because the owner is concerned about the dog's emotional state. :roll: It IS aggression, and all forms of aggression respond to the same set of training protocol (although the prevention / management may differ).


 
Every bored herding dog that i have ever come across begins herding the family/kids which involves nipping at their feet and such, I have never considered this to be aggression at all. Sounds to me like this dog needs a job!

I had an ACD years ago that I ended up placing w/ a rancher for the same reasons...he went to a working cattle ranch and they thought he hung the moon.

Another working breed that people are trying to acclimate into pet environments. :-(


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Julie Ann Alvarez said:


> You must be joking. I hope so at least.
> 
> The problem with taking the dog to a working farm/ranch is that they are few and far between.
> I was lucky and a rancher snatched him up quick.
> ...


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## Annika Friberg (Mar 27, 2009)

Chris McDonald said:


> The doggy ranches are few and far.




Especially in New Jersey :wink:


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Annika Friberg said:


> Especially in New Jersey :wink:


All the ranches and farms in NJ had 55 gallon drums buried in them years ago. Then they built strip malls and parking lots over them. Years ago I think you used to be able to pull your car over and kick the stupid dogs out on the side of the road, but now there’s to much traffic. Someone will rat you out. Then there are idiots like me that used to pull over and try and catch the dogs on the side of the road. I caught two or three of them. One of my buddies kept one once, it was some retarted supposed to be on a ranch dog. For 10 years all it did was rip his house and yard up, runaway and make him chase him, bark, nip and bite. Then I finally realized why there on the side of the road.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Why not try to get the dog into a working home- could be a frisbee competitor, lure coursing, even an agility competitor. Something so the dog can exhaust his natural super high prey drive.


What about Schutzhund? I was in a club several years ago with a lady who had a couple of ACD's with Schutzhund titles. Nearly anyone can put a Schutzhund title on a GSD or Mal :-0
It would be a real challenge and take a real trainer to title a ACD.


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## Shelly Timmerman (Apr 5, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Why not try to get the dog into a working home- could be a frisbee competitor, lure coursing, even an agility competitor. Something so the dog can exhaust his natural super high prey drive.
> 
> 
> What about Schutzhund? I was in a club several years ago with a lady who had a couple of ACD's with Schutzhund titles. Nearly anyone can put a Schutzhund title on a GSD or Mal :-0
> It would be a real challenge and take a real trainer to title a ACD.


 
Meet Jumpin' Jack Flash, BH. Schutzhund one bound this fall (fingers crossed)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlWisPb9i1Q

Protection video here...(just starting...he's much improved now..)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEvjDQoKKu0

Jack was rescued a little over a year ago, scheduled for euthanasia twice because he bites. (He nips to get attention, to get his way, to move things, etc, etc.)
I can honestly say that his behavior is definitely all working dog.. his prey drive is off the charts. He would NOT be suitable for a home without working experience...or with small children.. Not because he's evil ..but because he's so driven, unless he's working at something, he's getting into trouble.

MANTRA... repeat as necessary... "A tired cattle dog is a good cattle dog"


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Shelly Timmerman said:


> Meet Jumpin' Jack Flash, BH. Schutzhund one bound this fall (fingers crossed)
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlWisPb9i1Q
> 
> ...


HI Shelly

Thanks for the video....That's what I'm talking about


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## Annika Friberg (Mar 27, 2009)

Chris McDonald said:


> All the ranches and farms in NJ had 55 gallon drums buried in them years ago. Then they built strip malls and parking lots over them. Years ago I think you used to be able to pull your car over and kick the stupid dogs out on the side of the road, but now there’s to much traffic. Someone will rat you out. Then there are idiots like me that used to pull over and try and catch the dogs on the side of the road. I caught two or three of them. One of my buddies kept one once, it was some retarted supposed to be on a ranch dog. For 10 years all it did was rip his house and yard up, runaway and make him chase him, bark, nip and bite. Then I finally realized why there on the side of the road.


:-D sounds like a rough place. Maybe move to Colorado...or even better Wyoming...


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Who rehomed a biter three times? I'd get the ACD Rescue people involved. They'll be able to get him into the right home. Let me see if I can find Michael Stumpff's email address. Michael has turned several rescue dogs into herders. Also Ed Bruemmer and his wife Valerie DeMesa-Bruemmer. Maybe they can give a rescue name for the Northeast or help set up transport. Meanwhile the AKC parent club website might have northeast rescue contacts.


Terrasita


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## michael carroll (Jan 19, 2009)

he's just doing what he was bred to do.just not in the right enviorment to do it.put him where he belongs,where he has stock to work.The nipping behavior is natural just misplaced because of his circumstances.I've seen them try to herd pidgeons on feed lots in the texas panhandle.He's a working stock dog at least 3 times in the wrong hands.](*,)


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Yeahh, kinda sounds that way, along with management issues. Generally, I don't go along with attributing these type of behaviors to herding. Good herding dogs know the difference between livestock and people. However, that also assumes proper selection, raising, training, etc. He could just need some guidance and a job. The ACD rescue people amongst the herders know how to tell the difference and get them into the right hands. I'm sure a couple of mind would be holy terrors if they hadn't been raised right. 

Terrasita


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## michael carroll (Jan 19, 2009)

I agree completely,probably no guidance or training.I may be wrong, but I,m thinking nips not real bites,hurts all the same,but there is a diffrence. May be just over the top instinct.Just my thinking.Defintely not a dog for kids.Maybe he'll get a break and find his place in life,I hope so.Wonder how old he is.


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## milder batmusen (Jun 1, 2009)

Howard Gaines III said:


> *When a kid is bit and/or the dog bites or trys to bite the owner...my feeling is it's time to put down the critter. I have NEVER been in favor of saving everything, never.*



I agree =D>

why do we need so save anything if a dog can not ajust to peaple it is time to go to the other side


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Al Curbow said:


> Without seeing the dog who really knows.... Howard, do a simple act of kindness for a dog and take it and train it for free for the lady, it'll probably only take a month or 2 ,


 Al you are too kind. Sorry but it isn't my job to save the world or the bad choices many make with dogs. Cattle dogs aren't Aussies or BCs...IMO and having been around many on dairy farms, these are unique animals. Like any worker, they NEED a job. 

Understand that this ISN'T mine or something I have had. I can only pass along what I feel is good information when someone e-mails me with stockdog issues. If I don't know, we don't play Dr. Phil. If it were mine and the bite issue were to arise, it would be gone and no tear shed!


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> There is just as large of a difference in an ACD from working stock vs show lines as any other breed, some working stock ACD's are just nasty.
> 
> Which is it Howard ?


 Don't know. My guess is that the girl who owns it and go it as a rescue doesn't know. Yep, big difference in work and show. Nipping and biting are herding behaviors on ones even my BCs use, but not on people. Only two ways to do it: food and sheep!


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Well, in my house it has nothing to do with work vs. show. Its all about selection, and proper training and socialization to a certain extent. Some of the show pretties have a lot of working in the pedigree if you know where to look and what you are looking for. Years ago I was at a dog show. Two ACD owners awoke to 2 guys breaking in their rooms. Well when the ACDs sprung for them, they regretted that. They pulled the dogs from the show the next day---thought they might be too suspicious and reactive. With ACDs their program demands working if you want some of the breed club accolades like register of merit. Parents must have a trial level title. The Buzzard and Painter dogs are some the best known for cattle work both in Australia and in the U.S. and they can clean up in the show ring. The Buzzard dogs can be especially tough. There are softies in either gene pool.

Terrasita


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Man I love those dogs. Yep, when I get old, I am gonna have a shit load of them, and to hell with these other breeds. : )


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

Howard, refer her to WDF and people can help her. Also i bet a guy on this board 5 bucks what you're response would be.........I won 5 bucks !!!! LOL


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Ahhhh, come on Howard, just think of the little bouv puppy that came back because he was thinking with his teeth first. What if they kept him 2-3 years and never dealt with it. Was he intrinsically bad or just mismanaged? Could be the case with this ACD. I swore my bouv bitch thought everyone was a ring sport decoy when she was a puppy. I can't imagine if someone else had raised her thinking she was just fuzzy cute. When the emails come back I'll pass on the rescue people.

Terrasita


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## Dan Long (Jan 10, 2008)

sounds like the wrong kind of dog in the wrong kind of house. People get these dogs thinking they are going to be cute and cuddly and don't realize they need to work. I took a class one time with an older lady who had an Australian Shepherd. He was 7 months old and completely ran the house because she didn't set any ground rules (she didn't want to be "mean" to him) and she didn't give him any outlet for his energy. She wanted a lap dog. This is why you see so many GSD's in rescue as well, people get them and don't realize how much work they are- even the show lines are intelligent and energetic and need some kind of outlet.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

I have a friend with a cattle dog and it exibits the same behaviours as the dog in question. 

It needs to be rehomed with a Cattle Dog Rescue not into a SPCA or something dumb like that. This dog needs someone that understands Cattle dogs the person emailing you doesn't. 

My friend keeps her dog in the crate all the time when people are around as if it isn't working it wants to work and will try to 'heel/herd' anything that moves. 

I can never understand why people get these dogs in the first place if not for work. Like a proper Malinois, GSD, BC etc they are not Fluffy golden retrievers so why do these people think that they will act like Goldens? A dog is a dog but not all created equally, I think we all know that.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Dan Long said:


> sounds like the wrong kind of dog in the wrong kind of house. People get these dogs thinking they are going to be cute and cuddly and don't realize they need to work. I took a class one time with an older lady who had an Australian Shepherd. He was 7 months old and completely ran the house because she didn't set any ground rules (she didn't want to be "mean" to him) and she didn't give him any outlet for his energy. She wanted a lap dog. This is why you see so many GSD's in rescue as well, people get them and don't realize how much work they are- even the show lines are intelligent and energetic and need some kind of outlet.


Nice post, Dan. I was thinking about the back-and-forth on this last night and how no one knows how this dog is when he has a job and/or a ton of exercise.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Ok everyone, party this weekend at Al's place, he's won $5.00...Cold beer and dog stories!

You can't broad-brush breeds and think every dog will work in every home. As most on here will say, workers have drives and drives NEED outlets. I don't take on every OB or herding critter that comes along and with an owner whose long face and peanut mind haven't a K-9 clue! Nor will I rescue evey dog when owners need a drop zone.

And it has been my experience that many folks who work with/for the SPCA haven't a clue about working dogs. THEY broad-brush breeds and help at times to make these mismatches. The same thing can be said about BSL and how all GSD, Rotties, Dobermans, and other "targeted" breds are bad and the proble for society. 

Seems some forget the foundation of puppy development,* imprinting*. What is it that allows the dog to do and get away with the things that it is doing? *THE OWNER*. And it is the OWNERS, who have made many of these otherwise GREAT dogs in the proper venues, castaways!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> At what point should it be put down rather than spending time trying to change the behaviors?



You asked! :lol: :lol:


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Why is this dog even a house dog? I agree RANCH/WORK not couch dog.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Its hard to know if the dog really is a nasty, unstable mess that should be humanely euthanised, or just a dog that's been bounced through too many homes without sufficient boundaries being established, with too high expectations (oh look, just add kibble, instant Lassie!) or enough work or at least exercise for a high energy dog.

I can't help but wonder if the current owner is just trying to assuage her guilt about failing this dog and wanting to be rid of her by having someone confirm that it is indeed, all the dog's fault, it's a temperment issue and therefore, its ok to just have the dog pts. Or she just can't find anyone willing to take the dog and is hoping that the threat of death will prompt someone to step up and rescue her. Any chance the owner actually wants to work with the dog? Or would that require too much effort?

I really wish there was a magic puppy farm that all the bad, unwanted, behaviour issue dogs could get sent to, but there isn't. Where is this farmer that wants these dogs? And how long would they last before succumbing to lead poisoning?


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