# HRD Methodical vs bats out of hell.



## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Question for Jim



Jim Delbridge said:


> .....................
> As it is, my current dog has to be able to go from historic to helping me find the arm the person lost in the "motorcycle vs Semi" motorvehicle accident on a high bridge. My intent is once the younger dog is NAPWDA certified in 2012, then the current dog is going to be re-focused on only 5 years buried and old, scattered skeletal, and really old stuff. The youngster is less methodical (currently) and will be a nice compliment where both of them will work say (5-15 years dead)....................
> Jim Delbridge


Jim, do you think that focus and ability to do detail work is something that comes with age or the dog? Do you think as the younger dog grows older and more experienced he will become more methodical or do you expect he will always be wide open?

That is, at least, what I saw with my current dog - age has brought a more seasoned worker with more attention to slowing himself down and detailing.


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## Jim Delbridge (Jan 27, 2010)

Neither of my dogs will ever show up a high energy dutch or mal as far as movement. We (civilian team) were discussing this at training Sunday morning because I commented that those working high energy dogs are not going to think much of Murphy as he details an area. The disaster specialist on our team commented that Murphy is exactly what is needed to find those small bones and those clandestine graves that require methodical style.
Will Thorpe (the 19 month old) go this way as well? I've gotten glimpses of the wheels turning in his head on problem solving, but I am conciously slowing down his training on buried. Murphy could find 10 teeth at 18 inches deep reliably at 1 year of age. I was in a bind at the time as I went from 2 working dogs to none in less than a year. I time each dog working similar problems. Murphy works the subtle problems faster and Thorpe works the "loud" or tissue problems faster. Unless you observed how I train the dogs, one could suggest that I was the influence on how each dog worked one spectrum of HRD faster than the other. My team mates watched me set up an intentionally difficult problem by setting a charred/dried tissue wrapped in a towel and contained in a suet cage placed at 8 feet up on a slope with variable winds where the winds would blow the scent down into downslopes and/or vegetation. I set this up along a dirt road with the limitations upon me that I could not enter the area and the dog's boundry away from me was no more than 120 feet. I pretty much stayed about 60 feet away from the source and facing away from it. The scent kept the dog in the area once they first located in and began to problem solve. The dogs solved it differently with both having initial alerts at scent traps,but leaving that spot when I asked for a target. Both dogs finished by climbing the tree up with the nose leading them to the source. Murphy solved the problem with his nose to the ground almost the entire time with scent lifting the nose towards the source. Thorpe solved the problem more by performing a sampling grid method to find stronger diffusions and once within 2 feet of the source went up the tree towards the source. Both dogs took almost the same amount of time yet if an untrained eye watched them, they would have suggested that Thorpe was the harder worker. On a real search, I know when Murphy is in scent because he goes from "la-la" to very slow and relaxed. Both dogs gave me nice head turns, but Murphy's was a relaxed turn while Thorpe's was a hard fast turn back. 
Each dog works via its personality. My second dog gave very little hint she was ever in scent. She appeared to be dinking around the entire time then would suddenly down with the source precisely between her front paws. She was so reliable that I gave up trying to predict the alert. People that had watched me with my first dog suggested I had really done wonders with Tempe. The truth was that Tempe was just that good and I just went with the flow.
I think Jeff described it on the K9 Forensic list today. If you start with a dog that loves the hunt, training consists of setting up problems for the dog to solve. With each difficulty level passed, you set up more complicated problems. My training program consists of putting the dogs in as varied environments that I can and in such, gradually complicating the scent scenario for the dog to solve to source(s).
Yes, if I had kept Thorpe on Murphy's program of deeper and deeper buried with tighter and tighter overlap, I might have created another Murphy. I think doing so would have stunted what Thorpe is capable of. Murphy progressed through the burieds easily at every step. Thorpe can do them, but his personality is not one for tedious routine. My challenge is to fit his training with his personality such that the end result is the same but in line with his style. 
A clue to Thorpe is that if I create a truly noxious, choking, toxic decomp source then I now know that Thorpe will be in his element as most likely I'll have to inhibit hiim from rolling in the source. Such are some of the dogs that make really good HRD dogs because the genetic wiring that created the hunter that wants to mask its scent to be better at hiding from and catching prey has gone into overdrive.

With Murphy, my work mantra is a quiet "suuk suuk". With Thorpe, my work mantra is a slightly hispanic "Youuuu can doo IT! Yuuuu can do it!" Murphy is in a zone and Thorpe is wagging his tail. I've never cookie-cutter trained dogs, mine or others. I appreciate the personality of each working dog and go with their flow; Thus, Murphy is going to be the go-to dog to find the phalanges in the rocks and Thorpe is going to be the go-to dog where the building reeks of a dead body but no one has a clue where the scent is coming from. I had an instructor from the south tell me that on such a problem that he'd just suggest the cops tear all the walls down. My attitude is to suggest which specific space between studs hides the remains and to leave the rest be. I consider that a bit more professional attitude than the latter.

Don't know if that answered your question, but it's the way I work.
I watched a GSD team work a lot of graves where the dog was struggling as the handler was being very low key. The GSD never had a clue when it was doing right. I asked if I could work the dog. Handler said yes. The dog found nine graves for me in five minutes and wanted to do more because I became Pee Wee Herman (the character not the sleeze-ball actor) and the dog had a great time. The handler then commented, "ohhh, be more outgoing." I shrugged and nodded, because I didn't think explaining I became what the dog needed to work was going to turn on a human light bulb. That didn't mean the handler should do that with every dog. That meant this particular dog would work at its peak performance if I made it the greatest game around. Not all dogs are that way. I can get more work out of Murphy by pushing hiim away from a source than I ever could by stroking him. Murphy's biggest idea of fun if all the dogs get a treat is to wait until all the other dogs have eaten theirs then he lays down with his uneaten and teases them for hours.....he's very patient...thus, a methodical dog. Thorp's idea of fun in the same situation is to eat his as fast as possible and then figure out ways to steal everyone elses. Not surprisingly, Thorpe and Murphy entertain each other due to being so opposite.

Sorry to get off on a tangent, but it is all relative to how the two dogs work.

Jim


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Jim, I appreciate the helpful info. I think his discsusion on hunt drive is spot on and it confirms what I have observed for a long time, particularly with trailing dogs. I am surprised on person on the board has not already tried to shoot him down.

Will come back and think on this (and your airedale posts) later as I look for the next dog. I have always felt there was another side to the story as to which is the best dog for long tedious detail work....it is one side of a two sided coin. 

Let me know if you come to the East Coast for anything - would love to see your dogs work. We have access to some old graves (just pre civil war, nothing archeological) for training. I need to talk with Paul to see if I can get into the second FOREST seminar as a grunt/helper.


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## Jim Delbridge (Jan 27, 2010)

My wife handed me this link last night. It cracked me up as the talking heads are now focusing on what some of us have been doing for decades for our own purposes.

www.pennvetwdc.org


The last time Mr. Martin and I traded emails/IMs(long time ago), our contrast in styles was quite stark. I focus on working the dog on the graves and he focused on working the graves with the dog. I have the dog locate graves till I'm out of flags so the dog and I can get in a rhythm. He was locating a grave, tying up the dog, then documenting the grave in vast detail. He'd then restart the dog all over again to find the next single grave. I suppose that's why he wants to be a forensic anthropologist when he's done and I'm happy being the dog handler. He can't go wrong as he's got Brad looking over his shoulder.

Jeff's a big boy. If that person jumps on him, it only serves to draw more attention to what he's doing. The more that person spews, the less importance their viewpoint becomes. That person can be much ruder in personal email such that many of us just block that person's emails. There are several personalities such as that one in SAR that seem to draw dog handlers to them. I think it has to do with the human wish to find "THE Black & White Rules to train Dogs in Scent." The more I research, the more I realize I need to learn more. Someday we'll have special glasses where we can see the scents and then we'll be happy. Until then, we'll have to work with the real experts, the dogs. Force them into working one way and the smart ones will quickly find ways to entertain themselves which can include screwing with the handler. 

I turned down teaching at a seminar and the host wanted to know why. I thought about it and replied, "I've gotten choosier at who I want to train. I want to train those that will contribute at a search rather than those that just show up." That's the nicest way I can say it.

I'd teach with Brad Dennis anytime for free.



Jim





Nancy Jocoy said:


> Jim, I appreciate the helpful info. I think his discsusion on hunt drive is spot on and it confirms what I have observed for a long time, particularly with trailing dogs. I am surprised on person on the board has not already tried to shoot him down.
> 
> Will come back and think on this (and your airedale posts) later as I look for the next dog. I have always felt there was another side to the story as to which is the best dog for long tedious detail work....it is one side of a two sided coin.
> 
> Let me know if you come to the East Coast for anything - would love to see your dogs work. We have access to some old graves (just pre civil war, nothing archeological) for training. I need to talk with Paul to see if I can get into the second FOREST seminar as a grunt/helper.


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## Jim Delbridge (Jan 27, 2010)

On your original title, Bats out of Hell versus Methodical in HRD. I've taught multiple dog teams where the dogs can be described as rockets or "my little dog on crack." Invariably the biggest obstacle is getting the dog to go slow enough to acquire scent. The only way I see these dogs succeed is to channel that speed into focus. The success rate I've personally observed is about 30%. Such dogs are best applied as decomp dogs as the scent is loud enough to make them stop. If the handler/trainer is successful at channeling that energy into focus, such dogs often appear to be shaking the entire time they are working. I saw one malinois that was awesome at this, but the handler had to give the dog up because it also suffered from Jekyl&Hyde syndrome, turning on the handler (when not working). The dog is now a happy narc/apprehension dog.

It was one of those cases that I see way too often where I torture myself with the thought, "oh, what I could do with this dog....."

Jim


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Brad set up some very creative scenarios for us at the WCU seminar. I like him a lot. Seems like an honestly decent person who knows his stuff.


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

Remus seems to go back and forth. For a bit there he was scaring me because he went from reasonably paced to much faster paced and I wasnt sure why. He is about 20 months so maybe it is growing phases...

I tried to slow him down by lowering the scent...all I did was frustrate him. Back to motivationals......

He is still covering ground, but he does 'grid' pretty well by himself and if I want him to cover an area better, I just stay in that area, he will eventually do some circles around me. I think I need to just let him develop and not worry so much about 'ideal'. When in scent he is very focused on pinpointing and will slow down. Still faster than when he was younger tho.

I was taught to leave the dog alone as much as possible and I may not talk to him enough. Maybe he needs more input from me. He does slow down if I tell him to (wave hand over ground and say such slowly). My livefind dog is extremely independent and ranges pretty far, so I have never had to encourage him. Remus is naturally more in tune with me (even at home he likes to be close to me) and checks in a lot more whether working or on hikes. Maybe he needs more input from me....


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## Jim Delbridge (Jan 27, 2010)

If the dog is working, the best thing to do is leave it alone. This is usually the hardest thing for a handler to do. 

What do you mean by lowering the scent?

You can teach the dog to grid tighter on it's own by the scent present such as dry bone for scattered skeletal. If the dog has never done this, start with wet bone as it will be easier. Overlapping of scent sources is also a concept dogs have to learn. If your dog finds one small bone, will it look for more or figure "we're done."

Jim


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

Jim Delbridge said:


> If the dog is working, the best thing to do is leave it alone. This is usually the hardest thing for a handler to do.
> 
> What do you mean by lowering the scent?
> 
> ...


I went to finger bones. I have a 1/2 pelvis which seems to throw off a lot of scent (from watching the dog work anyway). But he didnt get the single bones at all (I did make them wet after seeing him get nothing). We had a few successes but mostly I frustrated him--finally figured out that 4 finger bones (the larger ones) was his threshold. I didnt realize there would be such a difference between the pelvis and the finger bones.

He has not stopped searching yet, but I can see when he starts to get frustrated, he is still searching but looks at me more and is 'sloppier' (before he gets scent).


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## Jonathan Brown (May 11, 2011)

Jim Delbridge said:


> If the dog has never done this, start with wet bone as it will be easier.





Jennifer Michelson said:


> But he didnt get the single bones at all (I did make them wet after seeing him get nothing).


How did you make them wet? If you acquired new bones that have not been dried out, great. If you simply got the dry bones wet, I don't think that is what he meant. Wet bone, even as small as a finger, should be a very strong scent source.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

How long were the bones actually out and when did you work them? 

I figure in the real world bones are out there for awhile and may of course be remote from the area where there was decomp because of scavenging.

If I throw out a small bone for 30 minutes. it is very hard. That same bone for 1 day, work next morning is not so hard. I think that scent pool hangs lower to the ground than it does for decomp because of how the dog works it. I was also told (maybe Jim can play in) that things like barometric pressure are more critical for the HR stuff than the huge amount of scent in decomp or live. So pressure dropping will pull it out of the ground pressure rising will push it in (in addition to the other weather variables) FWIW I don't log pressure in my training logs but have seen better performance when rainy weather is coming in and pressure is dropping. Not enough to make a bold statement but intrigued by it.

I have some bones that have been out for a year. I only work them once in awhile (no more than quarterly) to observe and these are small fragments of rib bone no longer than half inch (I do have them wired down but my distractor bones are also wired down exactly the same and I do work with clean bones too). .......... I see the dog maybe hitting up to 20 feet away.

This is a video I posted this January of a very small rib shard set out the August before. The verbal was where he was going out of the area and I normally don't stand still but you can see him hit scent in the shrub downhill of the tree. Unfotunately that phone cut off at 1:00 minute just before the trained indication but you can see the tail wagging as he sniffs and details the base of the tree.

FWIW it took me a lot of time working him with small bones to get him to work with his nose down instead of up. I think you really need that mode for the small old stuff. I also know when he is not showing body language he is in odor AND his nose is not down, it is time for a break. He is not used to snow and it was icy on top too so I figured with the snow and ice we were just going to have a negative day but I guess the moisture helped carry the odor.


http://youtu.be/xJjkDA1nACg


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## Jim Delbridge (Jan 27, 2010)

Jonathan Brown said:


> How did you make them wet? If you acquired new bones that have not been dried out, great. If you simply got the dry bones wet, I don't think that is what he meant. Wet bone, even as small as a finger, should be a very strong scent source.


Bones and teeth scent strength are basically a function of surface area. Some dogs do have thresholds, but I've found that handlers test to jump difficulties on their dogs.

Making bones wet is simply soaking them in water as this makes the source "louder" using an evaporative carrier. An easy way to improve a dog's sensitivity is to let it cheat. By this I mean most
dogs have scent memory, i.e. they know where you rewarded them for a scent source. Often times a dog working the same area will go back to where sources used to be for an easy find.

Sooo, take advantage of this. Put out a smaller surface area of dry bone that was known to be easier for the dog, but this time put out bones that have been soaked overnight in distilled water in a sterile jar. Let the dog find it and reward. Leave the bones there and hope for dry days (like Oklahoma with our current drought and over 30 100+F days.) Work smart if it's warm by working the dog at dawn where the soil the bones are touching is warmest and the air is coolest. If you are worried about losig your bones, protect them some way between working....say a large rock on top of them, what ever. take the protection away a few hours before working. (yea, I work really wierd hours)

The dog will try to cheat and go back to where it got rewarded. I'm ok with that. What I want to see is the dog getting close and then having to work to relocate the source. My dogs have to target precisely. So, they think they're cheating, but they have to crank up the sensitivity just a little more for the find.

Dogs have this nice survival trait where if there is more of a speicies of prey in an area that is feeding them, their nasal receptors regenerate every 3-4 months with increased nasal receptors for the prey that is more plentiful. We has scent trainers can take advanatage of this by working more problems on the hard stuff (say 2-3 times a week) with eventually a food reward to actually make the dog more sensitive. My reward system is a ball at the target.....primary reinforcer with a trade of food for the ball away from the source...secondary reinforcer. Thus, the more one of my dogs work teeth, the better they get at it. Teeth are the most dense and the smallest surface area, so diffuse the slowest and least distance away. I've started a lot of dogs on teeth in water though and then diminish the evaporative carrier gradually over months till the dog can find dried teeth and then finally onto historic-level teeth where the pulp has been cooked out of the teeth such that there is no decomp component. My personal dogs start with historic level teeth first in imprinting, so they tend to be far ahead of the curve on historic work.

I do separate the terms "wet bone" from "greasy bone". I consider "greasy bone" a decomp source. "Greasy bone" is bone that still has adipose tissue (body fat) in the bone structure. 
One can make a "greasy bone" out of the purchased "cleaned bones" by rubbing adipose tissue into the bone and giving it time to soak in.

Hope that helps,

Jim Delbridge


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## Jonathan Brown (May 11, 2011)

Jim Delbridge said:


> I do separate the terms "wet bone" from "greasy bone". I consider "greasy bone" a decomp source. "Greasy bone" is bone that still has adipose tissue (body fat) in the bone structure.
> One can make a "greasy bone" out of the purchased "cleaned bones" by rubbing adipose tissue into the bone and giving it time to soak in.
> 
> Hope that helps,
> ...


Got it, thanks. I've taken my dog on a walk months after training in an area, and watched him go right up to where he previously found a source. So I know they have long-term memories of those locations, but I had not considered taking advantage of it in that way.

I was confused because I use the term "wet bone" to mean the same as your use of "greasy bone". Note that the SWGDOG guideline document "SC1 Terminology" contains:

“Dry” bone: Skeletal remains that have no soft tissue or fluid.
“Wet” bone: Skeletal remains that have soft tissue or fluid.

So I might not be the only one that needs clarification on that.


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

Jonathan--if you check out some of the other HR topics you will see Jim talking about wetting bones. That why I thought to try it.

Poor Remus did exactly as you describe, Jim, while trying to work out the bone thing. He had found one (none were buried, all pretty surface, just tucked in places) and not being able to find others insisted on that one spot even in later searches where there was no bone there. Could have been a better learning opportunity. I will keep it in my tool bag....

So, can I conclude that I should let my dog work at his pace and not try to muck with it too much (or leave that to someone who actually knows what they are doing lol...)?

I have bones from the bone room--very very dry. Even with wetting, they remain very dry.

So, gross question that I though about only after reading how to make a 'wet' bone with fat......If someone had access to remains that cannot be used, but fluids can be sopped up from--would placing dry bone in those fluids make a legitimate and different training aid?


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Skulls unlimited bones are a little fresher than the bone room but still very much dry. I Have some femur heads from hip replacements as wet bone and leave all the stuff with them. That may be a good source for you.


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## Jim Delbridge (Jan 27, 2010)

Jennifer Michelson said:


> Jonathan--if you check out some of the other HR topics you will see Jim talking about wetting bones. That why I thought to try it.
> 
> Poor Remus did exactly as you describe, Jim, while trying to work out the bone thing. He had found one (none were buried, all pretty surface, just tucked in places) and not being able to find others insisted on that one spot even in later searches where there was no bone there. Could have been a better learning opportunity. I will keep it in my tool bag....
> 
> ...


 
dry bone is like a sponge and one always has to be careful what scents they absorb. I know handlers that store their bones with their decomp sources. What they create is another decomp source then are confused when they work someone elses bones and the dog can't locate them.
If you soak a bone in serum or blood then you are training the dog primarily on those sources. 
Greasy bone is the result of the body decomposing into the bone. During decomposition, adipose tends to separate from the fluids. So a "greasy bone" or SWGDOG's committee label of "wet bone" is something that could be a product of an actual search where the remains have mostly liquified leaving mainly skin and bones.

Skulls Unlimited is in Oklahoma City and I've visited it several times. Even they are running way low on bones and most of theirs are dry.

I'd suggest looking for someone that can hook you up with lyposuction for adipose tissue.

I'd avoid rewarding your dog on an empty location with the assumption that scent leached into the ground from your bones. When my dogs have done that, I always ask for a target and as there's nothing there they move on. It's only if I want to work the dogs on a source I know will get harder and harder over time that I might work the source multiple times over weeks. If the dog goes right to the source without having to work for it then it's time to pick that source up.

I do have several extremely hard buried areas that I know are only workable under certain conditions. My dogs might get to work them once a year, but I'll hide other sources nearby to observe if the dog gets any scent in adverse conditions over those areas. I haven't been surprised yet.

Jim


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

Jim Delbridge said:


> I'd avoid rewarding your dog on an empty location with the assumption that scent leached into the ground from your bones. When my dogs have done that, I always ask for a target and as there's nothing there they move on. It's only if I want to work the dogs on a source I know will get harder and harder over time that I might work the source multiple times over weeks. If the dog goes right to the source without having to work for it then it's time to pick that source up.
> 
> 
> Jim


just for clarification--I dont reward for residual odor. I meant doing what you describe in an above post- putting the bone back in the same spot and giving him an easier success.

I do keep my bones separate from everything to keep the bone only smell. Unfortunately it is hard to acquire sources in NJ. I have been able to use fresh bone with flesh, adipose tissue, and wet bones from other handlers. I just cant seem to get my own yet....


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I also keep my wet bone separate from decomp and separate from dry bone. [glass jars, freezer just to preserve it because so hard to get]--Honestly I would like some marrow wet bone because I feel the femur head, while better than nothing, is not equal to a marrow bone.

Are you keeping your dry bones in cardboard? I have to make the move - I have had some advice against keeping those in plastic ammo boxes.


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> I also keep my wet bone separate from decomp and separate from dry bone. [glass jars, freezer just to preserve it because so hard to get]--Honestly I would like some marrow wet bone because I feel the femur head, while better than nothing, is not equal to a marrow bone.
> 
> Are you keeping your dry bones in cardboard? I have to make the move - I have had some advice against keeping those in plastic ammo boxes.


There was a discussion on k9 forensics about containers. I moved the bone from plastic to paper bag then. I always kept the bones separate from all my other sources, but did have some teeth in with them, moved that too.


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