# Foundation



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

How many noobs here do your own foundation work?

How many are comfortable with the knowledge that you may not be getting everything that you can out of your pup due to your inexperience?

What was the reason that you did your own?


I come from another era. Experienced helpers, green dogs. Green helpers experienced dogs Never green on green.

I HATE when some noob brings their dog and I can see that they have not done the work properly. They have done it long enough and it is a conditioned response. There is never a full fix to this.

This ought to get you away from 18 pages of what collar does your dog wear in the house, and Oh God what if he escapes BS No wonder you guys are such NOOOBS. 

Focus now people I don't want to tell you again.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

I don´t do it, I ask Dick to do it. Playing is with a big football or something but no tugwork. To afraid I will ruin the bitework.

I did help built a young dog on a sleeve on the club, but under guidance of Dick and the owner who was a good IPO (sch) helper.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

I don't do any of that at home either. SchH club is the only place we do bitework.


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## Simon Mellick (Oct 31, 2006)

Jeff, 

When you talk about people bringing their dogs to club, I assume you're talking about some form of ring sport? In a sport where bite quality isn't nearly as important as commitment to the bite, what kind of things do you see that suggest poor foundation work? Just curious.

I'm definitely a noob, and I did a lot of foundation work with my pup. I wasn't overly impressed with any of the local sport clubs; I mostly train with police K9 handlers, so my foundation skills probably aren't that far off from theirs. It was really a situation where I either did my own, or he wouldn't get much foundation work as a pup. 
Recognizing that my timing wouldn't be pefect, I risked it and did my own foundation work anyway. There are some undesirable behaviours that may or may not have been conditioned by poor training: He does a lot of head thrashing, pulling back instead of into the bite, lots of growling on the bite. Then again, those are also more common in the breed (bouvier), so who knows.

Simon


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

*takes a big breath and ignores house collar comments and contemplates the joys of duck herding and dog sledding* :roll: :roll: 

How much foundation is foundation? Is drive work and getting a dog excited about a tug (say for an obedience reward) mutually exclusive from the bitework?


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

At what point does a green helper become a not-green helper?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I was having a conversation with one of our new decoys about how horrified I am that they (two of them) have the balls to conduct a training session themselves with no experienced trainers present.

Every dog has a low and high threshold for.....lets use prey drive. If you do not know what you are looking for with a particular kind of dog, there is a huge possibility that you are rewarding a dog in half drive or less. I see this a lot, especially since "The videos" came out. I am not bashing the videos, just beginning to see the damage from people assuming that they know what a good decoy looks like, and that they themselves can do the MOST IMPORTANT WORK OF A DOGS LIFE with absolutly NO EXPERIENCE WHATSOEVER. 

Simon, the foundation work for bitework is the same. Even my spastic dog bites a sleeve all the way back to the sides of his head. Do not assume that bite quality shows the strength of a dog when you are looking at ringsport. There are many ways that trainers use TO KEEP THEIR DOG FROM BITING FULL. This is due to a full bite is probably not gonna get a recall as fast from a strong dog. It is a points thing. 

Also, keep in mind that there are some really bad trainers in the local PD's. I doubt that they get much experience considering that they buy dogs that already have a foundation. They are under time constraints, and have large egos a lot of time. :twisted: :twisted: 

So other than duckies and sled pulling the retards of the training world, any one else??????


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

We stress to all the noobys at the club to NOT do any tug or drive training until they can prove they have a clue about what the're doing. 
We also have a couple of folks learning helper work. 
They dern well know better then to put a sleeve on without supervision. 
Also, the newer the helper, the more expierienced the dog and visa versa! 
As you say, "No green on green"!


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## Doug Wendling (Apr 1, 2006)

> I see this a lot, especially since "The videos" came out. I am not bashing the videos, just beginning to see the damage from people assuming that they know what a good decoy looks like, and that they themselves can do the MOST IMPORTANT WORK OF A DOGS LIFE with absolutly NO EXPERIENCE WHATSOEVER.


Jeff
You can put the Internet right in there next to videos.  



> At what point does a green helper become a not-green helper?


Mike
I think that is a tough one to answer, because you can have a helper that has been doing helper/decoy work for a while, but just can't seem to put two and two together. They never really get better then someone to give a dog a bite. Then you can have someone bust on the seen and in no time be capable of working and training dogs pretty good in a short amount of time. I think like anything in life some people are better suited then others to do this, both physically and mentally. 
I don't think their is a definite answer to that question. It is something that needs to be based on a person to person basis. To me personally I want to see that, the person can read a dog, adjust to different dogs, be safe in what they are doing, work trained/titled dogs well without needing help or guidance from the trainer. Maybe be the primary training decoy for a dog from young to a title or certification?
But, going back to what Jeff said about video's, to many people do think that watching video's, reading books or the internet gets you somewhere. While it is better then nothing and it can be a start, at some point people have to get with quality decoys/trainers/helpers if they want to really learn and accomplish something.

Doug


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Dick says:

When we´re playing tug (not a biteroll, a soft young dog sleeve) with a puppy it is to learn in an early stage to push instead of pulling. 
You see a lot of doghandlers use a tug to play a pullinggame when a dog wins when he pulls. 
We want the dog to push, like we said, and a pup may win the sleeve when he is really pushing. At preference when he is pushing the sleeve against the ground, with his frontlegs around the sleeve, hanging over it.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Yes, maybe look at it case by case. I've seen people with their own training groups even put up videos online with improper bite development, say, puppies doing sendouts and targetting wrists, or some pushing their dogs into defense way too soon, or too much emphasis on showy stuff etc. etc. I do a lot of the foundation on my own because I can't find anyone experienced in my area to help me on a regular basis, but I use props (i.e. other people) instead of having the dog bite me, just making sure we still go through all the basics...rewarding the dog only when he is being really pushy and hard biting (otherwise he loses the bite and he has to sit there and do nothing), teaching dog to push into bite by rewarding him with proper submission when he counters, proper line work, and so on. I don't like talking too much about what I do in bitework though because of this very reason...I'm a noob at heart.  

I think it could be said that I'm comfortable knowing my dog is not getting the best, because it's either this or nothing at all. I just try to make sure everything is safe and know fully well I'm walking at the edge of a razor blade...but for now it *seems* like my dog is doing better than a lot of dogs I see online. You won't see me posting a video any time soon though...


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Dick says:
> 
> When we´re playing tug (not a biteroll, a soft young dog sleeve) with a puppy it is to learn in an early stage to push instead of pulling.
> You see a lot of dog handlers use a tug to play a pulling game when a dog wins when he pulls.
> We want the dog to push, like we said, and a pup may win the sleeve when he is really pushing. At preference when he is pushing the sleeve against the ground, with his front legs around the sleeve, hanging over it.


How do you play 'tug' in a way that makes the puppy push instead of pull?


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

I'm not Selena but basically it's rewarding the dog when he pushes. My decoy screams in mock pain each time the dog pushes into him, it's kind of fun and embarassing to watch. :roll:


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

I guess what I was trying to ask is how do you get the puppy to push instead of pull. I don't understand how you can play tug in a way that would cause the pup to push rather than pull. I understand rewarding the behavior; my question was how to get the behavior.

When Jessie bites ME, she pushes in, :lol: but with toys, she pulls.


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

> At what point does a green helper become a not-green helper?


This depends on the type of helper you're thinking of: one that takes bites in a suit from trained Police Dogs in scenarios; an apprentice at a club; one that trials in Schutzhund; one that trials in a ring sport; one that develops good puppies through to adulthood; one that knows how to work through problems. The one that can do all of the above decently, and that still has his knees in working order, is the not-green helper.

IMO, the person FIRST must have talent...and then he/she must have worked somewhere upwards of 150 DIFFERENT dogs.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

> I was having a conversation with one of our new decoys about how horrified I am that they (two of them) have the balls to conduct a training session themselves with no experienced trainers present.





> and that they themselves can do the MOST IMPORTANT WORK OF A DOGS LIFE with absolutly NO EXPERIENCE WHATSOEVER.





> I come from another era. Experienced helpers, green dogs. Green helpers experienced dogs Never green on green.


I was just curious about the level of greenness that Jeff was referring to here. I'm far from the worlds greatest green decoy :lol: But I think that with the proper guidance *(with a trainer present)* there is a certain level you can reach where, while still being considered a green decoy, you're not an idiot with a sleeve or suit on  I think the critical element is having a decoy who can understand what the training director is asking them to do and follow instruction well, I see decoys who are told what they should do, n then you have to spend 5 minutes explaining it to them n they still do it wrong. They lack the rhythm and the feel for the work. I just find green to be a pretty blanket statement when it comes to decoys, I have a problem calling myself green, not because I'm a super great decoy or anything like that, but because it puts my 3000+ catches of working hard 2-5 days a week for 3 or 4+ hours at a time doing my best to learn all I can learn, on par with a guy who's put on a sleeve 5 times in his life and comes out to work a few dogs once a month.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not objecting to anything anyone said, I just want to understand at what point someone is considered skilled enough to not be classified on the same par as the guy who's just starting, or the guy who's been doing it for a year and still hasn't got a clue what he's doing


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

> I just want to understand at what point someone is considered skilled enough to not be classified on the same par as the guy who's just starting, or the guy who's been doing it for a year and still hasn't got a clue what he's doing


$0.02...You're probably way past those two already. You like it, you're dedicated, you're studious, and you have access to knowledge and dogs. I think to really know how good one is, one has to work under a few top trainers, with different level dogs and ask them.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Kristen Cabe said:


> Selena van Leeuwen said:
> 
> 
> > Dick says:
> ...


Have asked Dick to find the right words:

1.) Genetics: there are natural pushers and natural pullers, a dog has a favorite way of biting. Our dogs are naturally pushers.

2.) Stimulation: if you´re playing with the sleeve, slowly move backworths. Puppy doesn´t want to loose the sleeve and will push, when pushing, puppy may win the sleeve.
If puppy is pulling, never EVER let the puppy win the sleeve, you will reinforce the pulling. If puppy is pulling, slowly go backworth untill puppy pushes, let puppy win the sleeve.

Also a puller can learn to push this way, my x mal is an example. Is natural (hard)puller, she can push now...after a lot of training.


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## Guest (Dec 15, 2006)

Andres Martin said:


> > I just want to understand at what point someone is considered skilled enough to not be classified on the same par as the guy who's just starting, or the guy who's been doing it for a year and still hasn't got a clue what he's doing
> 
> 
> $0.02...You're probably way past those two already. You like it, you're dedicated, you're studious, and you have access to knowledge and dogs. I think to really know how good one is, one has to work under a few top trainers, with different level dogs and ask them.


Gotta be gettin close to 2 bucks soon.

Years in a suit or running a sleeve can't in some cases equate to ability, but with any kind of experience in any endeavour, time will force some knowledge or understanding on you whether you want it or not.

What anyone does with it just depends on the individual involved. JMO.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Hey not for nuthin, but you aren't one of those silly Baden people, are you?

Just checking, cause one of Baden's goofball accolytes posts, and gets kicked off of boards on a regular basis. (Cath the ass)

If you are, it would be great if you could post some of those rediculous videos. I can't get enough of that stupidity.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

This was supposed to read sort of funny. I guess I didn't get it right.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> This was supposed to read sort of funny. I guess I didn't get it right.


Ya shoulda had Woody ghost write it for you.   :wink:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Like I find him amusing.


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

*B*elligerence *A*lways *D*istinguishes *E*xtremist *N*aysayers


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

See?


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> See?


*B*oneheads *A*sk *D*umb, *E*ntertaining *N*on sequiturs


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

And here's one:

How much IS a can of goose grease these days, anyway?


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Great episode last night. Just love that show.


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