# responsible professional breeding



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

after thinking about it, my Q about how much the pups in Timothy's letter went for might be sending the wrong message to some people ....

as in, doing the math, counting pup heads, and thinking "Hmmmm, 8-10 pups .. if my bitch can drop that kind of litter at home with no complications, that could be an easy 8-10 grand and that'll take care of my VISA bill, etc etc 

so maybe this might be a good time for the serious professional breeders to speak up and explain that breeding is not necessarily a "kachiiing" payday when all pups are sold off ??

i would hate to be responsible for planting any seeds of "breeding for fun and profit" in anyone's mind, even tho there can be some of both 

TIA !!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

getting dogs for breeding purposes to make money is not a get quick rich scheme. especially in working dogs...

with all of the investments of time and money involved in the dogs, to turn an overall profit with even one good breeding pair, if looked at as an investment, it takes several good sized healthy litters to turn a small profit, even if just looking at one breeding pair of dogs.

people that breed dogs will find this out soon enough..no litters, small litters, complications, etc. etc. and a whole host of problems.

you can get lucky, have everything go right, with minimal expenses, it is possible, but over the longer haul it all goes away in the wash...

Rick, the first thing that has to be done is to sell all those pups for 1000. that simply does not happen unless you have a very good track record and/or are well networked and have dogs that people want.

I used to go look at Presa Canario pups that people had for sale, back when they were a growing fad rarebreed, and people were breeding alot to try to cash in, pups were 1500-2000 on average for the more legitimate established breeders.

I would go look at pups at 6 weeks, attempt to test the parents, check th litter out, not buy anything usually, but talk to the "breeder" a lot while I was there. say guys wanted 1500

I would then call again when pups were at 8 weeks and ask how many were left, showing interest in them...by then the pups would be fighting eachother pretty seriously if all kept together. then guy is willing to give me a deal for 1000-1200

Then I would call again a week or two later, and the guy would talk about how he is willing to give me a good deal, cause I am a good knowledgable guy that will do the right thing with the pup(s). and he would offer me a pup for 800.

I cannot tell you how many people would then be CALLING ME back when the pups were 12-14-15 weeks old trying to give them to me for no money, for some kind of deal, or just for free no strings attached..

at 14-15 weeks Presa pups can be in the 30-40 lb range, producing tons of crap, and fighting eachother. 

That happened in some variation many many times, it is a learning curve people have to go through.

as an investement, or a way to make money, dog breeding is not very profitable on a small scale at all. There are easier ways to make money. 

To be successfull, it takes infrastructure, investment of time and money in everything else and the dogs, and people that are willing to buy dogs from you...working dogs are not in that high of demand in all reality when compared to other types of dogs. and working dog people ususally are much more educated on dogs, with a lot more requirements from the dogs than a normal pet type home, who just want a dog.

if someone wants to make a lot of money breeding dogs, breed pets, small dogs like Bichon's...no testing involved no xrays, no training, no kennels, low food costs, little poops, and you can sell them, without the dogs having to sell themselves, which is what is required for becoming successful in breeding working dogs in most cases.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

1 pup to owner of stud... Free
If I kept one... Minus another pup
My brother in law owns female..... Price of a pup
If any dog has problem ... Minus that
Account for any future problems... 
Lets not forget the cost of the breeding female yearly as well!
Cost of feeding female drastically increases. Shots...dewormer...carpets( if your clean)....time you put in is never accounted for. 
Website costs
So many other hidden costs as well.

Dealing with people is very aggravating as well! I'd come out better money wise, cleanliness, and less stress if I just worked overtime at my job. A bad addiction I guess.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Tx ...

i know what you mean about how that price drops in proportion to pup/poop size 

...and of course i meant Timothy's "LITTER" 

P.S. at least one good thing about the damn pet stores over here ... they rarely sell large breeds because they only got a VERY short marketing window to move em out while they are still "cute" ](*,)](*,)


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

I personally will never get a pup from a kennel that does little with the pups. IMO dogs are learning the minute they are on earth. It is much easier to have puppy's in a barn and leave them alone and those are usually the people who have had 40 litters and are tired on interacting with the puppies. It is just easier to tell people that Enviornmental stim doesn't work! It is a lot of work to round up 8 pups everyday and put them in different places while somebody cleans the box. Yes mom cleans the poop but the pee is the real problem.

I've gotten filthy pups and they were filthy their whole life. I prefer pups who are raised in the house cause it establishes cleanliness early(if the breeder is clean). Also the noises these pups will hear the rest of their lives become a non factor. Just will not listen to another breeder who says its better to leave them alone, cause like anything for some people, the easy way is the better way! I'm not saying you can't have good or bad dogs either way but I like the dogs that are handled early. These are not wolves and people will be the biggest part of a dogs life, so it always makes me laugh when people talk about how a wolf would be raised in the wild and try making comparisons.

Guess I'm saying money doesn't equal the time!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

rick smith said:


> Tx ...
> 
> ...and of course i meant Timothy's "LITTER"


Dont know Tim, but assuming what I think I know about him, breeding dogs has not made him Rich. and the litter sold for 1000 a pup probably did not come close to even recouping just his gasoline and food expenses. involving the dogs


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

I'm still blinking at the 800/1000 $ a pup 

It always looks like easy money, produce a litter, sell pups, money in the bank...

Nothing could be less true tho. Studfees, vet bills, food, housing, paperwork, cleaning, 6 weeks of yapping by unruly puppies. The list goes on and on. I would never breed for the money involved...it costs almost as much to breed as it gets you paid...

Only reason for breeding should be to further a good bloodline, not to get paid.

Same goes with selling a trained dog! I just sold Robbie into LE, after his trial he will be going to dutch police. I love how people say WHOA You made good money for him...did I? Really? 3 years of hard work, food, vetbills and shots...trust me the costs outway the benefits by a mile!


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## lannie dulin (Sep 4, 2012)

Okay devil's advocate here. It seems most of your arguments against breeding for profit is from the stand point of a person that isn't already heavily involved in dogs/working dogs. If you’re a person already involved in dogs and spending $ on them left and right, the chance to get some of that back is pretty tempting. I think that is more in line with the original post.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Ok math time. I sell puppies for €400
Average litter 8 puppies
Prices are guestimated cause i dont want to know really..
Studfee, mostly use our own studs but if i use an outside stud aprox €250/300 + travel
Cost of puppie food (commercial raw) €150/200 in weaning period from 3-7 wks
Cost of dams food about tripples abou €100
1shot + microchip+ several times deworming € 75 per pup = € 600
Usually 1 or 2 pup for ourselves or given a way with agreements (when good use him as stud or get a litter out of a female

Leaves 6 or 7 pups for money =€2800(7 pups)- cost 900 (own stud)= 1900 -21%taxes makes about €1500 profit, that will pay for about 3.5-4 mo of food bills for the dogs.
If we dont get a lot of other cost, vet bills etc. I don't count the time, although we do ens or a lot of stimulation and stuff. Lots of tlc and observing of the pups, and believing in genetics.
Basically the litters make up a a little of the expenses we have, and the whole dog thing is a costly hobby.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Agree with everyone else. If you are a miller and put minimally into it, I guess there are profits. Look at the amount of money people spend prooving out their dogs--club training fees, seminars, weekly classes, entry fees, travel, etc. On the breeding side: stud fees, vet--progesterone, ultrasound, x-ray and heaven forbid--a c-section. I do some litter vaccines but don't vaccinate adults. There's food, supplements. My pups leave here darn near house broken, crate trained, leash trained, etc. Anything slated for performance has been to indoor and outdoor trials to judge reactions. They've all been stock tested at least twice. Then of course there is the meet and greet and time spent with prospective placements. There is an incredible amount of time spent with early imprinting, handling, training, etc. This is assuming that you actually get puppies. There is all the expense of breeding and mommy dog reabsorbs the litter or you get one puppy. Sometimes there may be genetic physical abnormalities and you may have to put one or more down. Simply put, you can't always control mother nature. 

T


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## lannie dulin (Sep 4, 2012)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Ok math time. I sell puppies for €400
> Average litter 8 puppies
> Prices are guestimated cause i dont want to know really..
> Studfee, mostly use our own studs but if i use an outside stud aprox €250/300 + travel
> ...


You forgot to adjust all your expenses to exclude the puppies you plan to keep. Taxes are also incorrect, taxes are based on your profit, not gross [(gross - expenses) - taxes = post tax profit] . Last thing is the 300% increase in dame's food, your not expensing what you normally would feed her are you (because you would have that anyway)? I'm only point this all out to keep this true to the original intent of the post (someone who already has these dogs and expenses).


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Not good in math, first to admit that.
But i will make the cost in the whole litter, but will not sell all the pups.

Usually dam will eat 1 bag 20 kg of €30 a month, In lactation and recovery period about 2/3 bags extra + raw on top of her normal bag.Profit for me is the extra in the bank, so profit after taxes. 
And the fact my "profit" when i do my taxes ( let the book keeper do it) is always big loss, says about the same. We're onlu a company because of the law, producing more as 20 pups a year is considered proffesional breeding and you must be a company.

Gross is 2800 ( 7 x 400 €) - cost 900 (total cost of meds/food/extra food for dam)=1900 (profit before taxes) -21%(tax)=1500 profit after tax, or do i not understans what ypu're saying?


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## lannie dulin (Sep 4, 2012)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Not good in math, first to admit that.
> But i will make the cost in the whole litter, but will not sell all the pups.
> 
> Usually dam will eat 1 bag 20 kg of €30 a month, In lactation and recovery period about 2/3 bags extra + raw on top of her normal bag.Profit for me is the extra in the bank, so profit after taxes.
> ...


No that's fine for tax purposes. I was just trying to isolate expenses that we all have just because we have working dogs, or because we want a pup or 2 to continue our lines from pups being sold for profit. 

I actually think this is interesting because the temptation is real. I won't share how much I pay for dogs, but making a few $ instead of dropping $ when I want some more is tempting. I think that's at the heart of this discussion.

I'll reframe from going deeper in the tax stuff. I'm accountant, and would bore everyone. I only got nosey in this post because of my interest in #s lol.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Timothy Stacy said:


> 1 pup to owner of stud... Free
> If I kept one... Minus another pup
> My brother in law owns female..... Price of a pup
> If any dog has problem ... Minus that
> ...


To do it properly can end up costing you money. You also need to take into account when you miss a litter, and you have travelled to breed to a dog and paid a stud fee. All the blood tests if you want to try and get the timing right, the possible cost of a c-section, microchiping. 
If I was to put up how much money I have spent and then how many pups I had sold people would think im nuts.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

lannie dulin said:


> You forgot to adjust all your expenses to exclude the puppies you plan to keep. Taxes are also incorrect, taxes are based on your profit, not gross [(gross - expenses) - taxes = post tax profit] . Last thing is the 300% increase in dame's food, your not expensing what you normally would feed her are you (because you would have that anyway)? I'm only point this all out to keep this true to the original intent of the post (someone who already has these dogs and expenses).


Lannie, are you an expert on the tax codes in Holland?


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## lannie dulin (Sep 4, 2012)

Joby Becker said:


> Lannie, are you an expert on the tax codes in Holland?


No but there are standardized accounting methods globally in order to allow companies to easily interact financially with minimal restriction. The very basic formula I listed is a universally accepted practice in the US, Europe, and most of Asia. 

I have to charge you for any further tax/accounting questions


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

lannie dulin said:


> No but there are standardized accounting methods globally in order to allow companies to easily interact financially with minimal restriction. The very basic formula I listed is a universally accepted practice in the US, Europe, and most of Asia.
> 
> I have to charge you for any further tax/accounting questions


no thanks.. my tax forms, are very very simple...


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Christopher Jones said:


> To do it properly can end up costing you money. You also need to take into account when you miss a litter, and you have travelled to breed to a dog and paid a stud fee. All the blood tests if you want to try and get the timing right, the possible cost of a c-section, microchiping.
> If I was to put up how much money I have spent and then how many pups I had sold people would think im nuts.


Yes, the AI I did this winter that didnt take was very disheartening. :-?
Importing semen, procedure, plus testing hormone levels


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## Carmen van de Kamp (Apr 2, 2006)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Yes, the AI I did this winter that didnt take was very disheartening. :-?
> Importing semen, procedure, plus testing hormone levels



People often don't see what went wrong. 
My K litter for example

Trip to stud around 1000 km (total), stud fee 1 pup, luckily free after all that happend
No problems until birth. The story is here somewhere, but finally no pups, dam luckily saved. Vet bill 660€ and getting her sterilized in a few months.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Carmen van de Kamp said:


> People often don't see what went wrong.
> My K litter for example
> 
> Trip to stud around 1000 km (total), stud fee 1 pup, luckily free after all that happend
> No problems until birth. The story is here somewhere, but finally no pups, dam luckily saved. Vet bill 660€ and getting her sterilized in a few months.


Oh man, that's a nightmare!


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 2


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Christopher Smith said:


> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 2


What I meant to say is....



lannie dulin said:


> I was just trying to isolate expenses that we all have just because we have working dogs,


Lannie thanks for trying to keep things realistic. I'm sure that as an accountant you smell what the truth is.


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

Alice Bezemer said:


> I'm still blinking at the 800/1000 $ a pup
> 
> It always looks like easy money, produce a litter, sell pups, money in the bank...
> 
> ...


 I agree w/ u Alice. "To further a good blood line," as there's not much money in it. If u enjoy the dogs and believe in good breeding practice for the preservation of good blood, it is worthy of ur time and expense. JMHO.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Yup, Carmen.. In a week time i had a female empty and loose a complete litter, just after birth. Most frustating I still don't know the exact reason of loosing the litter, all the vet exams are not concluding...only a very a very probably cause.

It is all worth it, but things like what happened to the litter gets under your skin, and both Dick and I seriously considered to stop with breeding.


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## Carmen van de Kamp (Apr 2, 2006)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Oh man, that's a nightmare!


The whole story as it also is on our website

finally I have found the strenght to tell the whole story about the loss of our K-litter Medusa (Like A Hurricane Chaya chanah) x Haras.
The start of this litter was (as with Medusa her first litter) again a little strange. The male we planned for her was a not experienced stud and the mating didn't take place because of her dominance, so on day 16 we travelled to our spare male we already had chosen (as this was the same with her first litter, not accepting an unexperienced male and also then I had a spare one which turned out as a great litter). Haras took 5 minutes to get through her dominance defence and she accepted it then immidiately.
The period of her pregancy was totally without trouble, Medusa was in good shape phsycally. During the night at day 60 she geave birth at 0200 AM to a small, but strong looking pup, unfortunately Medusa was in a lot of pain and that seemed to block her from getting further into labour.
At 0500 AM we visited our new vet (we just moved) and nothing more then praise for this vet, clinic Landhorst for standing available 24/7, they really have the heart for the animals on the right spot.
Medusa unfortunately didn't accept the vet examining her, so he had to sedate her a little. An x-ray showed the pups were nice in line for birth, so no complications expected. Medusa got some painkillers and oxytocine and we got home. The other pups were born during the next hours.
The first born was really small compared to the others and didn't survive the night, from the other 9 born, 1 was born dead, the rest were all healthy looking big and strong pups.
Having some doubt about if Medusa was ready with labour, we had the vet come over at the afternoon to check her. Normally we don't do that, but because this wasn't a normal labour I wanted to be sure. Only this visit also stressed her a little.
The day after that visit her right front paw swoll and it looked like her milk was not as much as before. Again a visit to the vet, the front paw was infected, but we couldn't find from where, so she got antibiotics to stop that and hopefully get the milk back as it was. Futhermore Medusa was a really good mom, just as with her earlier litter.
In the next following day it didn't look that the antibiotics was doing their work and we lost 2 other pups again on day 3. With the vet check of her paw it came clear that some more had to be done. We had to open the infection, put a drain in it and other antibiotics. The vet also put some of the infection on test to see if the antibiotics was working.
After this Medusa had a quick recovery, we only lost the 2 weakest ones then and the other 4 were turning out to be great, massive, healthy and strong pups.
The infection was reacting to the antibiotics and the wound was healing nicely.
On day 10 the pups even started to open their eys, so no problems with development at all. What went wrong then stays a guess, but the anthesia and the antibiotics could have triggered some with Medusa or the pups or could have given some not seen defects (section didn't show anything stranges at all) as on day 11 Medusa killed the last 4 with a precicion bite behind the skull (to be shown at an xray, no visible damage outside).The closest guess is change in behavior (maybe even seisures) with the pups due to anesthetics and antibiotics, but those were all needed to save the life of Medusa and she has been the most important all the time for us, so we had no choice.
Because of all this we decided to keep Medusa from breeding in the future, she never has to go through anything like this again. Medusa did kill the last 4 herself, but it was a burden on her, she kept looking for her pups after they were gone, for her recovery we took her out of her own enviornment and a friendly kennel "van de Maanwacht" was so kind to take care of her for a couple of weeks.


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## Carmen van de Kamp (Apr 2, 2006)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Yup, Carmen.. In a week time i had a female empty and loose a complete litter, just after birth. Most frustating I still don't know the exact reason of loosing the litter, all the vet exams are not concluding...only a very a very probably cause.
> 
> It is all worth it, but things like what happened to the litter gets under your skin, and both Dick and I seriously considered to stop with breeding.




I know, had a female pregnant when all of this happened, so "no" choice & luckily a good experience now, but I was really sceptic & couldn't enjoy the first time.....


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Carmen van de Kamp said:


> The whole story as it also is on our website
> 
> finally I have found the strenght to tell the whole story about the loss of our K-litter Medusa (Like A Hurricane Chaya chanah) x Haras.
> The start of this litter was (as with Medusa her first litter) again a little strange. The male we planned for her was a not experienced stud and the mating didn't take place because of her dominance, so on day 16 we travelled to our spare male we already had chosen (as this was the same with her first litter, not accepting an unexperienced male and also then I had a spare one which turned out as a great litter). Haras took 5 minutes to get through her dominance defence and she accepted it then immidiately.
> ...


 
Wow, that is nightmarish. I would be DONE for a long time.


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## Carmen van de Kamp (Apr 2, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Wow, that is nightmarish. I would be DONE for a long time.


As I wrote we just bred a female before this happened & as it was Medusa her 2nd litter & the first all went well (11 pups) we didn't expect problems. 

The only thing I can do is getting it in the open......has reactions of people not understanding that it happened, but my guess is that it does happen a lot but most keep quiet......
Even had people telling me, she now didn't have a litter, you can try again next heat.....no way that's going to happen...!!!!


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Carmen van de Kamp said:


> As I wrote we just bred a female before this happened & as it was Medusa her 2nd litter & the first all went well (11 pups) we didn't expect problems.
> 
> The only thing I can do is getting it in the open......has reactions of people not understanding that it happened, but my guess is that it does happen a lot but most keep quiet......
> Even had people telling me, she now didn't have a litter, you can try again next heat.....no way that's going to happen...!!!!


I don't know what's to keep quiet about. Like you said, hard to figure out and not all aspects of mother nature you can control. Its hard to know the effects of anesthesia or the antibiotics and what they triggered in her or what she was reading in the puppies. Some bitches don't accept right after the section. It can depend on the timing of the section as to the release of certain hormones. By day 10 you figure you're out of the woods though. I was thinking heartbreaking for you. Do you recall what antibiotic?

T


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Here is a question that puzzles me and please don't take this as advocating BYB's but how come BYB's hardly ever seem to have problems even when they are churning out pups at factory speeds?
I know one BYB that churns out pups like this and has never had a single problem like shown above. Obviously he is raking it in so he isn't gonna stop anytime soon and is being rewarded greatly by breeding, I would guess he had maybe 10 litters last year of various types of dog.
I think his program is 'I fancy a new car, better get this (insert breed) knocked up quickly)'
He offered me quite a substantial amount of money for my dobes, way more than what I paid, but obviously I told him to do one.
I often hear about these complications with breeding in various breed forums and think of this guy and wonder WTF is going on?
He breeds 'pet' dogs like bichons and stuff, he has also bred american bulldogs and english bulldogs which I assume are breeds that are maybe likely to have complications?
Obviously the pups may go on to have problems, but he is byb and so gives not a hoot about that :evil:
I know nothing about the physicalities of breeding so am completely ignorant on that side of it.

Can anyone enlighten me of the reason this is occurring?
Obviously he is not the only byb 'getting away' with this, just look on preloved or pets4homes and there are thousands pulling this off as well.

I'm assuming the basic expenses are equal for him also, increased food, vet bills, vacs, worming etc. Yet he is minted.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Matt Vandart said:


> Here is a question that puzzles me and please don't take this as advocating BYB's but how come BYB's hardly ever seem to have problems even when they are churning out pups at factory speeds?
> I know one BYB that churns out pups like this and has never had a single problem like shown above. Obviously he is raking it in so he isn't gonna stop anytime soon and is being rewarded greatly by breeding, I would guess he had maybe 10 litters last year of various types of dog.
> I think his program is 'I fancy a new car, better get this (insert breed) knocked up quickly)'
> He offered me quite a substantial amount of money for my dobes, way more than what I paid, but obviously I told him to do one.
> ...


What makes you think he doesn't have problems? Maybe he just buries them? I've heard this a lot too. Millers don't have issues because if there is an issue, they're culled. What makes you think he spends the general expenses. I'm told they won't intervene or pay for vet care if something goes wrong. Sometimes there are just flukes of nature. But really doing pen breeding to whoever, whenever and if it takes fine. If it doesn't there are several others being bred in the kennel. There is no comparison to having one bitch, bred to a certain stud to get a certain type of dog. 

T


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## Carmen van de Kamp (Apr 2, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I don't know what's to keep quiet about. Like you said, hard to figure out and not all aspects of mother nature you can control. Its hard to know the effects of anesthesia or the antibiotics and what they triggered in her or what she was reading in the puppies. Some bitches don't accept right after the section. It can depend on the timing of the section as to the release of certain hormones. By day 10 you figure you're out of the woods though. I was thinking heartbreaking for you. Do you recall what antibiotic?
> 
> T


There was no section. All born natural. 

Antibiotic I can look up later


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Matt Vandart said:


> Here is a question that puzzles me and please don't take this as advocating BYB's but how come BYB's hardly ever seem to have problems even when they are churning out pups at factory speeds?
> I know one BYB that churns out pups like this and has never had a single problem like shown above. Obviously he is raking it in so he isn't gonna stop anytime soon and is being rewarded greatly by breeding, I would guess he had maybe 10 litters last year of various types of dog.
> I think his program is 'I fancy a new car, better get this (insert breed) knocked up quickly)'
> He offered me quite a substantial amount of money for my dobes, way more than what I paid, but obviously I told him to do one.
> ...



You said it yourself already, he doesn't give a ratsass what happens with the pups or if they are healthy or have anything wrong with them. He doesn't give a ratsass about the females he is breeding from. He probably doesn't have them checked, vacinated or whatever comes with it. Most likely he buries his problems so no one knows about them. 

As long as people are stupid, he will be breeding to meet the demand.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i also doubt if Matt knows the full picture ...
many years back i was approached by some "japanese breeders" to get them some rabies vaccine that is illegal in Japan ... it was the typical "since you're an american maybe you can get it from the states for us and we'll pay you, etc"

i had thought their intentions were decent; looking for a "better" vaccine, etc., so i checked them out. i had no intentions of importing some illegal drug here, and told them right away, but they didn't give up easily and kept bugging me from time to time ....on one occasion i actually went to where they were "breeding" .... they way these outfits operate their "business" would turn your stomach, but the bottom line is it is VERY easy to set up as long as you have the privacy ....

i was finally able to use some LE contacts a couple years later and they got busted ... took time to do it, but they never knew i was involved
...on the surface some of these outfits may look half ass legit ... until you peel back the layers :evil:

not worth wondering about how it's done and how bad it is ... there will always be too many idiots that buy dogs who don't care where they came from, and some will actually think the more they cost the better they must be :evil:

i still say there are plenty of good working dog breeders out there, but still feel there are too many dogs in the world, and too many breeders that don't know what they are doing and don't have the experience necessary to better their breed. even if they have good intentions when they start out, and even if they have a few nice litters

one thing i DO blame on breeders is when they sell a dog to someone who doesn't have the experience to raise it properly. and even tho they will say they have little control over what happens to the pup after it's bought, or they have no way to thoroughly check and screen buyers, i still call it a weak excuse ](*,)
- i KNOW this is pretty easy to do. i can tell in about 30 min of watching someone handle a dog if they are capable of raising a strong working dog, and i am certainly no training guru //lol//
- which of course makes online sales an even riskier crap shoot; but still no excuse to me 
- and if they can't "move it" as a pup, tough, they should just keep it and develop it until they can, regardless of cost. even if that puts a hold on turning out more litters for awhile and restricts their ability to continue breeding 

a good strong dog going to the wrong place can do a LOT of damage to the breed image. just like the "pet quality" working dogs going to clueless families, or single but still clueless buyers, can also do just as much damage. and i know this one well ... it's a big percentage of my client list :-(

which is why i also feel good close follow ups are another element that defines a responsible professional breeder. if that's "too hard", i still don't care ... it's how i feel 

- so if you haven't been around long enough to have build up a potential customer base, maybe that might be another thing to consider before you start breeding ??


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

T and Alice. I am not in anyway praising this guy up or advocating byb set ups, can we get this straight first just in case you are thinking this.
I am not making a comparison other than trying to understand better by comparing the bad to the good.
What I am trying to do is gather information on what exactly differentiates a byb greeder and a good ethical breeder in terms of money.

One thing I can clear up though is he does do the vacs, vets and increased feeding etc I know this because I have known this guy since we were kids, his family etc. and at one time was regularly over his house witnessing all this. (I have never had a dog off of him myself but mostly because I am not a fan of the dogs he breeds, not because he produces shite) admittedly the food he feeds them is pure shite pets at home crap, but I would say that is through ignorance rather than informed decision. He does put the pregnant/whelping bitches on extra raw food but that I think is just because he has found it to be a good idea over time.
I do know he doesn't follow up on pups because I have spoken to him about this, his opinion is once it's sold it's the new owners responsibility. I can relate to this from the other side (relate not approve) . Once I get my puppies I consider them my responsibility and no longer **** all to do with the breeder, good or bad they are mine to deal with, I don't go back whining like a bitch to the breeder like it was a new car under warranty, like when my dobe died of DCM (but then she was nearly 11 and from a good ethical responsible breeder) havn't really had the need to, but wouldn't anyway if it happened.
What I do know also about him is he loves dogs, which seems to be a contradiction I know, but his love for his dogs is genuine. Yet he has this odd way of looking at them as breeding being their job.

Another point that springs to mind is I have had a few byb bullies in my life and have never had any problem with them, either health wise or temperament. I would go as far as to say every one of my bullies has been byb bought from the kitchen they were bred in, none were conformation show winners but all were very good dogs.
I can however relate to good breeding as my missus bought her staff puppy from a good ethical breeder and she is a belter, it's hard to put your finger on exactly what makes her better she just is.
However interestingly I obtained an EBT stud dog from a breeder who had impeccable breeding who's head was absolutely ****ed.
Obviously working dogs is a whole different kettle of fish to 'pet' breeding and for that matter show breeding. 
So my question is, is it purely the extra's of titling dogs (both show and working), the health expense of working your dogs (injury etc) matching sire/dam that is making this imbalance?
I also know of gun dog breeders that do their own vacs etc. which is a random thing that just sprung to mind.


On a side note:
I have heard of reputable working kennels not titling their bitches and even working dog kennels that give a bitch a litter at the beginning of her career (before titles) and one at the end.
Are these people relying entirely on pedigree alone?

How does one explain these working dog kennels you see, producing cracking working dogs and living off the business?

Edit: I think I better point out that I really do not approve of what he is doing, as I have learned more about breeding and byb's I have stopped hanging out so much. IMO it is far too easy to just start churning out dogs. 
What is the solution?
I think ignorance is the problem, both of the byb's and the buying public.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

_How does one explain these working dog kennels you see, producing cracking working dogs and living off the business_?

Maybe if you have more dogs, and really making it your business, incl maybe boarding or giving training classes it might be do able.

We cut back from 16 dogs till 9 ( and the pet dachshund of the kids), we both work fulltime and you have to make choices to be able to commit well to the dogs, the kids, other thing you want or have to do..


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Matt Vandart said:


> How does one explain these working dog kennels you see, producing cracking working dogs and living off the business?


is cracking a good term or bad term?


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

good, lol.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

those people and those businesses have more going on than just selling puppies, or they have a very low standard of living or maybe they had a bunch of money already...


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

some solutions are :
- to educate people when you met them and talk dogs ... many people have no idea how dogs are manufactured for profit only
- give pet stores that have a windows with dogs grown for profit NO business and/or a piece of your mind if you are in there and make sure you raise your voice so other shoppers can hear you, MANY ways to do this. pick a busy day and look interested. when they tell you you can't see the dam or sire and they won't identify the breeder, start raising the volume 
- don't be afraid to speak up and tell a friend who has a sick dog or problem pet store dog that was "purebred" "with papers" to NOT repeat their same mistake again
- offer to go to a shelter and help a friend pick out a good dog
- offer to help find them a breeder

MANY other ways you can make a difference, even if it is a small one


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Joby Becker said:


> those people and those businesses have more going on than just selling puppies, or they have a very low standard of living or maybe they had a bunch of money already...


Ah cool, thanks!


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

rick smith said:


> some solutions are :
> - to educate people when you met them and talk dogs ... many people have no idea how dogs are manufactured for profit only
> - give pet stores that have a windows with dogs grown for profit NO business and/or a piece of your mind if you are in there and make sure you raise your voice so other shoppers can hear you, MANY ways to do this. pick a busy day and look interested. when they tell you you can't see the dam or sire and they won't identify the breeder, start raising the volume
> *- don't be afraid to speak up and tell a friend who has a sick dog or problem pet store dog that was "purebred" "with papers" to NOT repeat their same mistake again
> ...


Yes I started doing this a while ago, including my missus when she wanted to get a staff. Thats how she ended up with a good un.

On the other points, fortunately pet stores havn't been able to sell puppies here for a long time now.

I have tried educating my friends but I may as well talk to a wall tbh.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Whenever this discussion comes up there seems to be a real blur in the lines between what is and is not acceptable expenses when trying to decide if someone makes money breeding.

Can you make money on a single litter? If all you take into account is the specific expenses for that litter, ie stud fee, pregnancy/pup related vet costs, food bill, you have a good sized litter, they are healthy, they sell easily, etc then yes, of course you can make a profit on that litter. And that is where the people who want to believe all breeders are "making it big" want to come from. They want to pretend any other costs, such as the purchase of the mother, training, titles, health checks, etc to make the pups actually worth buying for the price you are asking, marketing, follow up, replacement costs for any pups with issues down the road, "fixing" a pup that is returned all f'd up, etc doesn't exist and can't be counted against the profit made on the litter. Nor can the loss on that last litter where the breeder spent thousands on an AI, there were complications, a few more thousand on vet bills, and in the end barely saved their female. Or lost her.

Look at things from an even bigger picture though, and you have to take into account the following when deciding if someone is making money breeding. If it's a business, then all your business expenses should be counted. And I'm not touching on every single thing, just a few main categories.

1) purchase of the dogs used in the program
2) money lost when a dog held back or purchased doesn't pan out (initial cost, food bills, vet bills, training bills, trial bills, etc) or dies, or is stolen by that co-owner you thought you could trust, or ...
3) the costs on all the litters that didn't work out (bitch didn't take, complications that resulted in large vet bills, litters that died, etc)
4) costs to maintain (feed, vet, train, title, etc) the dogs used in the program (pups didn't come out of thin air and the titles, health checks etc contribute to the sale price of the pups)
5) the down the road costs, ie time spent supporting a buyer, cost in replacing a dog, $ spend fixing a dog who is returned all f'd up by the buyer etc

There are more costs, but these are some of the main categories. Some people will argue "but you would have done all that anyway for your hobby". Reality is most breeders I know, who breed on any sort of regular basis, would not own and maintain the number of dogs they have if they weren't breeding. They would have 1-3 dogs that they were training/competing with for their hobby, they wouldn't have 5, 10, 15, etc dogs and the thousands of dollars in vet, food, training, etc bills that come with those dogs.

IMO there are 3 ways to make money breeding dogs

1) breed responsibly but in high enough quantity that the good outweighs the bad, and the small profit from most of the litters, combined with doing a lot of litters, adds up to be a large enough profit to actually talk about. This is how some of the breeders in Europe do it (some of the bigger name ones) and a few in the US also do it.
2) have a female that is mainly your pet/competition dog, ie you are a hobbyist who does all the training, trialing, etc, and you decide to do a litter, which works out without major complications. Which the majority of litters do.
3) don't bother with most of the expenses part of things, ie the health checks, training, trialing, take short cuts on vet care or skip it all together, feed crap food, and pup out puppies. Also your selection criteria is strictly the dogs ability to whelp and raise litters successfully, so soon you have a number of good (from a strictly it can be born and raised POV) producers. Since they skip all the up front costs their price per pup will (should) be a little lower, but their profit margin will be much higher.


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## Jill Lyden (May 25, 2011)

I spoke up at the club this weekend when a friend, new to the sport and to dogs, was talking about his prospective breeding bitch and her issues with potential food allergy issues. She's nice enough otherwise and he's working her and planning to title her before breeding. He bought from a reputable breeder and has done all the other things right. But she's likely highly allergic to chicken protein. I asked if it was likely hereditary and he said yes, and her sire has it too (this breeder is a name you'd all know and is widely considered reputable though I would question that if she's breeding known allergies like this). 

I said, well if it proven that's what she has then I guess you don't get to breed her then huh? That sucks! You should have seen the look he gave me - kinda heartbroken but not really offended. He'd likely never even considered this condition a reason not to breed her until I said something. WTF??? How many of you consider things like that, meaning other than the regularly screened for issues like hips and elbows, as deal breakers. And then, you'd have to consider that bitch a washout and write off all of the expense you'd put into her.

Wonder how many people would have spoken up for fear of offending? I know I probably shouldn't have but my mouth got moving before my sense of tact could kick in and censor me. But, if people always err on the side of tact then new breeders might not ever really think of things like this. Isn't it our responsibility to actually speak up with stuff like this even if it means we may offend someone?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

rick smith said:


> some solutions are :
> - to educate people when you met them and talk dogs ... many people have no idea how dogs are manufactured for profit only
> - give pet stores that have a windows with dogs grown for profit NO business and/or a piece of your mind if you are in there and make sure you raise your voice so other shoppers can hear you, MANY ways to do this. pick a busy day and look interested. when they tell you you can't see the dam or sire and they won't identify the breeder, start raising the volume
> - don't be afraid to speak up and tell a friend who has a sick dog or problem pet store dog that was "purebred" "with papers" to NOT repeat their same mistake again
> ...


I feel the same way about demodectic mange...

I know of several breeders that treat immediately, if it occurs, instead of waiting to see if the pup will remain localized and recover, or if it will become generalized...

If I ever have a dog I that I would consider breeding get demodectic mange, I would definately not treat immediately for it. 

How do you know if the dog would generalize or not, if you start pumping them with Ivermectin and baths immediately?

that is just me though. some people will not risk anything with their own dogs, but will still pass it on to other people...either knowingly or becuase of ignorance.


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## Sally Crunkleton (Jan 13, 2012)

Jill Lyden said:


> I spoke up at the club this weekend when a friend, new to the sport and to dogs, was talking about his prospective breeding bitch and her issues with potential food allergy issues. She's nice enough otherwise and he's working her and planning to title her before breeding. He bought from a reputable breeder and has done all the other things right. But she's likely highly allergic to chicken protein. I asked if it was likely hereditary and he said yes, and her sire has it too (this breeder is a name you'd all know and is widely considered reputable though I would question that if she's breeding known allergies like this).
> 
> I said, well if it proven that's what she has then I guess you don't get to breed her then huh? That sucks! You should have seen the look he gave me - kinda heartbroken but not really offended. He'd likely never even considered this condition a reason not to breed her until I said something. WTF??? How many of you consider things like that, meaning other than the regularly screened for issues like hips and elbows, as deal breakers. And then, you'd have to consider that bitch a washout and write off all of the expense you'd put into her.
> 
> Wonder how many people would have spoken up for fear of offending? I know I probably shouldn't have but my mouth got moving before my sense of tact could kick in and censor me. But, if people always err on the side of tact then new breeders might not ever really think of things like this. Isn't it our responsibility to actually speak up with stuff like this even if it means we may offend someone?


I applaud you for opening your mouth. I for one have ticked off quite a few people the same way.

I learned the hard way when the first GSD I owned myself was diagnosed with DM. Hips and elbows are great, but I will never again purchase a dog without the parents being DM clear. I know there are no 100% guarantees, but I prefer to greatly decrease the risk of ever seeing such a sad disease progress with my own dogs. 

I would love to be a great breeder and turn out GSD's that improve the breed, but likely never will simply because I do not have the time, money, and no- how to do what I believe is the right way.

I wish everyone thought that way but reality is not always nice, and neither is the truth.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Matt Vandart said:


> T and Alice. I am not in anyway praising this guy up or advocating byb set ups, can we get this straight first just in case you are thinking this.
> I am not making a comparison other than trying to understand better by comparing the bad to the good.
> What I am trying to do is gather information on what exactly differentiates a byb greeder and a good ethical breeder in terms of money.
> 
> ...


How many litters does he breed a year? He's breeding for a pet market which wayyyyyyy out numbers the working dog market. Working dog people don't breed enough litters in a calendar year to have profits off of cash crops. Its simple. Follow-up with the breeder isn't necessarily whining like a bitch. The performance dogs I've bred, I like to see compete, train and get feedback. I've kept track of them throughout their lives and like getting the yearly X-mas cards, pics, etc. If there are health problems, you need to know about them. 


T


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Sally Crunkleton said:


> I applaud you for opening your mouth. ...


So do I.

I've been researching/studying dogs' allergies for many years.

I've adopted allergic dogs. (I have one now.)

I work at a shelter where dogs are surrendered because of allergy-related costs (and the costs of dealing with steroid-induced illnesses from trying to take a short way out with Pred).


The propensity for forming IgE antibodies has a strong genetic component, and it's sickening to me that anyone would knowingly breed a dog who has allergies.


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## Sally Crunkleton (Jan 13, 2012)

Connie Sutherland said:


> So do I.
> 
> I've been researching/studying dogs' allergies for many years.
> 
> ...


Touché!!!


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