# "Real Dogs", "Nerve Bags", and "Stable Dogs"



## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

So yesterday i participated in a training day put on by the western states police canine association. about 50 dog/handler teams. they broke us up into groups and there were 5 scenarios that we rotated through. there were 8 or 9 in my group.

on one scenario, they called it "the courage test" scenario. basically it was environmental/decoy pressure. you started off on asphalt, you held the dog, decoy is in a doorway, agitates dog with empty 5 gallon water jugs with rocks in them, then runs about 15 feet deep into a room with slick floors, boxes and more empty jugs strewn about on the floor. you sent the dog and the decoy kicks the jugs on the floor at the dog while shaking the jugs and advancing on the dog for a frontal bite.

out of the dogs in my group, i'd say 3 dogs had a real hard time with it, 2 dogs did it very well, and 3 were so-so. at least one of the dogs that had a hard time were dogs with many street bites to their credit and i believe was/is considered a tough street dog by people is his area. my quesiton...what does this poor performance mean? 

i have my own thoughts that i will post, but i'd like to hear some others first. 

to answer the obvious questions: yes, i lucked out and gregg tawney was in my group. his dog was one of the ones that did very well, flew in high speed, no issues. my dog flew in, but because of the slick floor, didn't time his launch right and ended up raking the suit initially, then went in and held on confidently so i considered his performance in the so-so category.


----------



## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

It means someone probably forgot to show the dog what he might encounter in a building n they got thrown off. Either you work thru it or you write the dog off if it's clear they will never make it. Or you hope there's never any felons that run into a building with slick floors and gallon jugs around


----------



## Amber Scott Dyer (Oct 30, 2006)

I'm completely sure that there's a big difference between environmental pressure and "man-pressure" from a dog. On one hand, I've seen dogs that have zero issues with anything environmental you throw at them, but if the bad guy yells and pulls them close to the body, they freak. On the other hand, I've also seen dogs that will take anything the guy with the schutzhund stick can bring, but get antsy when they bring out the palm fronds. I personally think that environmental pressure is 50% genetics and 50% conditioning. Most of the people who train for anything like Mondio, PSA, etc. start their dogs from the beginning with exposure to as many different distractions as possible (some schutzhund people, too, but unfortunately not enough.) If you have a well-bred dog, the chances are good that he'll be stable anyway - but all the extra exposure can't hurt. Then again, like I always say - a real criminal probably isn't going to be carrying a penny jug around in their backpack. :wink:


----------



## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

Not sursprised that happened :wink: I think many "real" and tough dogs will be bothered by strange/weird situations if they never seen such scenarios before. It´s like when you see dogs in policedog trials that are considered tough streetdogs that show a bit of concern on a couragetest performed by a impressive decoy because they aren´t so used to that type of scenario.
But if they have trained for it they will do much better. In short, if a dog can´t deal with a situation it has been trained/prepared for, like the scenario you described, then I would get concerned.


----------



## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Erik Berg said:


> Not sursprised that happened :wink: I think many "real" and tough dogs will be bothered by strange/weird situations if they never seen such scenarios before. It´s like when you see dogs in policedog trials that are considered tough streetdogs that show a bit of concern on a couragetest performed by a impressive decoy because they aren´t so used to that type of scenario.
> But if they have trained for it they will do much better. In short, if a dog can´t deal with a situation it has been trained/prepared for, like the scenario you described, then I would get concerned.


this is what i believe for the most part. for some dogs, it was the combination of everything. if you broke it down in segments, they were ok. slick floors alone didn't bother any of them. the jugs alone, same thing. the objects on the floor bothered one dog. when it stepped on the boxes and jugs while on the bite, it had problems. for most of the dogs i saw that had problems, it was the total package that was the issue. the helpers did a good job, when a dog had problems, of breaking it down and giving the dog some success in the scenario.

most all street bites are gimmes. the guy is running away, bite. the guy is laying passive bite. once the dog is on, they scream like little girls and the dog is removed. a k9 team can go through many years and many bites and never be stressed the way the dogs were in this scenario. if constantly exposed, like amber suggested, i feel that most of these dogs could adapt to this specific situation. most of the PSD trainers i know, unfortunately, don't stress these types of exposures. perhaps because as was suggested, it is not really encountered on the street. i know gregg does do these types of things with his dogs (probably because of the PSA influence).

here's my dogs apprehension histories: first bite with first dog was on asphalt, guy was crouched down and got bit on the shoulder. second bite guy was passive in some bushes. third bite current dog, guy was passive in a building attic got bit on leg. fourth bite guy was in a bathroom and got bit on the arm. all gave up immediately. these were all gimme bites. no resistance. no uneven footing, nothing waved or thrown at dog. does this mean we should train for these types of situations? no, not in my opinion. we should train for the extreme situations where there is uneven footing. where the bad guy does offer resistance. where the bad guy does have objects in his hands and use them as weapons or distractors.

in short, in my opinion, that scenario is not enough to tell whether those dogs that failed were "tough" or not. as amber suggested, there is no way of telling whether or not those dogs could work through that with more frequent exposure to similar situations. i would tend to think that most of them could...


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Tim, I would not place your dog in the so-so catagory just because he slipped on a slick floor on an obvious strong entry.


----------



## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

thanks jeff. while i would tend to agree solely because it's MY dog, it wasn't flawless. the decoy said it was because he slipped, but who knows? there is always the possibility that he balked at everything going on, so i can't put him in the "he did well" category. maybe i'm being hard on the dog, but that's just the way i feel.

my main point in bringing this whole scenario is because, in my opinion, the ability of a dog to bite a man "for real" and environmental/decoy pressure confidence are not mutually inclusive. yes, the ability of a dog to bite a man "for real" is something that all handlers question up to the point their dog actually does it. this is a trait that not all dogs possess. the same can be said for environmental/decoy pressure sensitivity. i don't believe that if a dog can do one, he automatically can do the other. this scenario proved that point...

edit: also for jeff....chalk one up for a "half mouth" biter. call the entry what you will, but once he was on, HE WAS ON. didn't let go under the pressure. so much for full mouth = confidence theory :wink:


----------



## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Post deleted because Tim's being a smartass.


----------



## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

what did mike say? i don't read his stuff anymore...


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I miss all the good stuff


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Tim Martens said:


> what did mike say? i don't read his stuff anymore...


Then why ask?

Mike, what you said about the half-mouth or full mouth not being the biggest issue -- then do I read it right: a less than full grip that does not adjust in response to pressure is preferable to a grip that starts better but then adjusts when pressured?


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I would think some dogs can sense the difference in it's handler whether it's a street scenario or a "fun" competition.
I like the full mouth bite from a sport perspective. 
Not being LEO, I can only guess that full or short, if the dog stays engaged is all that counts.
The best answer is in the training. A perp is rarely going to fight the dog. As Tim said, a " gimme bite".


----------



## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> Post deleted because Tim's being a smartass.


what a baby...


----------



## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> I would think some dogs can sense the difference in it's handler whether it's a street scenario or a "fun" competition.
> I like the full mouth bite from a sport perspective.
> Not being LEO, I can only guess that full or short, if the dog stays engaged is all that counts.
> The best answer is in the training. A perp is rarely going to fight the dog. As Tim said, a " gimme bite".


believe me, i'd rather my dog have that full mouth bite. it looks prettier and it generally causes less damage on suspects. there is also less possibility of losing the grip when it's deep (more re-grips = more damage), but it isn't so with my dog. as long as he stays in the fight, that's all that really matters...


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Aside from more damage, in the real world, is the shallow bite more apt to get clothes instead of meat?


----------



## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Aside from more damage, in the real world, is the shallow bite more apt to get clothes instead of meat?


potentially, but it's not whether or not the dog gets clothing, it's what the dog does when/if he gets it. even with a full mouth bite, with a thick jacket, the suspect could slip the bite/jacket off. as long as the dog spits the clothing and re-engages, it doesn't really matter.


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Why is it potentially more damaging? Is it because of the repeated bite sites? More toothmarks?


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I say go old school and the more damage the better. They had their chance to give up.


----------



## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Why is it potentially more damaging? Is it because of the repeated bite sites? More toothmarks?


yes and if the canines are involved, when the dog thrashes, those long teeth do much more damage than molars.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Why is it potentially more damaging? Is it because of the repeated bite sites? More toothmarks?


Here's a science-y explanation. "In the wild," wild canines, felines, and other carnivores like hyenas don't take down prey with a "full mouth bite." Ripping and tearing is done with the front half of the mouth. Take hyenas, for example. They have one of the strongest bite pressures in the animal kingdom, but their crushing molars aren't for killing, they are for cracking bone after the kill. Kind of like parrots. They have amazing bite pressure to crack very tough nuts, but if a parrot is pissed off and wants to bite you, it doesn't do it with with the main part of the bill, but the two points coming together. *shudders remembering a bite long ago from an African grey*


----------



## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I say go old school and the more damage the better. They had their chance to give up.


the problem is, more damage doesn't necessarily mean more pain which means less compliance. a dog locked onto a guys arm or leg with a full mouth bite, providing constant pressure is more painful and likely to gain compliance quicker than a couple of shallow skin tears, but the latter will need more medical care and "look" worse afterwards...


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Still vote for the excess damage


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

You get working training those hyenas, Jeff. I'm in the market for a pup afterall.


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Still vote for the excess damage


Messier to carry them off, though.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

They have that thing about things taller than they are. How bout an ugly mal instead??? Even better one of those weird looking dutchies??? I will dress it up with a larger hump.


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

For hunting, I will take the full mouth biter anyday. Let's say the dog grabs a bobcat or a **** with a partial bite and just gets fur. The dog is going to get eaten up trying to shake the prey holding onto just fur. The full mouth biters are the kill dogs in the field. When they wrap those jaws all the way around a **** , coyote, or a bobcat, they break shoulders, legs, necks, backs or whatever else is in between those jaws when they pick the game up off the ground and start shaking it. When bones start breaking, the prey is not going to inflict much damage on the dog. Catching people is a bit different and it generally won't take as much to take the fight out of a person I would imagine. :lol:


----------



## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I say go old school and the more damage the better. They had their chance to give up.


]
And all those that worked the streets say AMEN.

DFrost


----------



## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

A full mouth, hard bite can cause considerable damage. A dog does not have to release and bite just to cause damage. The fight in the subject, the more fight I expect out of a dog. Damage is caused by the tearing and even bone breakage, puncture wounds are not always that "damaging".

DFrost


----------



## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

the only thing i'm gonna add is that when Brix gets a "full" bite on anything--those molars will scissor thru anything he has in his mouth that he's found so far (except the concrete blocks--he just drags them around), in a matter of seconds. and he WILL "scissor"...but maybe not if someone yells at him; he's just a baby


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> For hunting, I will take the full mouth biter anyday. Let's say the dog grabs a bobcat or a **** with a partial bite and just gets fur. The dog is going to get eaten up trying to shake the prey holding onto just fur. The full mouth biters are the kill dogs in the field. When they wrap those jaws all the way around a **** , coyote, or a bobcat, they break shoulders, legs, necks, backs or whatever else is in between those jaws when they pick the game up off the ground and start shaking it. When bones start breaking, the prey is not going to inflict much damage on the dog. Catching people is a bit different and it generally won't take as much to take the fight out of a person I would imagine. :lol:


This makes a lot of sense if the same is applied to man biting. 
I've seen my share of a$$whuppins on dogs that failed to commit to a full bite on quarry. To hard headed to let go. Not smart enough to regrip. :lol:


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

You asked for it, so here goes.

I cannot figure out how to cut and paste on this stupid mac boat anch..... laptop.

The question I am replying to is about the "tough" dogs failing to do as well as people would expect.

I think that one of the problems could be how exagerated stories get. I also think that many of the people that work with dogs know little to begin with, so shaking and growling are impressive to them.

I was also thinking that maybe some of these dogs have went against someone that was drugged up enough to toss them about a little bit, or perhaps a lot. If you add that with a lack of good training, which I doubt that many get due to time or lack of creativity, or experience, or decoys, this could definately cause the problems.


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I have talked to a number of people that have been dog bit by dogs that just sucked everything to the back of the jaws. The damage appeared to be less visually than a dog with a lesser bite. These people had no protection and were innocents at the mercy of out of control dogs. The dogs latched on, with a good bite. Every person said the pressure was unbearable and they could have easily passed out. They said they couldn't move. One of these people had an extreme fear of dogs after the incident and was visiting me a number of years ago. At the time I had a bad ass dog, !/4 chow chow, 1/4 St Bernard, 1/2 pit. The dog was about 90 lbs with a 28" neck. The person saw the dog watching from under the porch and when they made eye contact the dog launched for the face and he was on a cable. I heard a scream and saw the dog make contact and luckily the front feet hit the person in the shoulder and the chest first and knock them head over heels down the hill to safety. The one foot hit between the shoulder and the elbow and by the time we got them off the ground the arm was totally black and three times the normal size. She wore a sling for a good number of months and she has several fractured ribs. I shudder to think what would have happened if he had got hold of her. Luckily it was my partners girl friend so nothing came of it. This all happened in the middle of a yard sale with a lot of witnesses. I loved the dog but we took a walk after the attack and I came back alone. That was enough of the bad ass dogs for me.


----------



## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I think so much of it comes down to A) the dogs character and B) the dogs training. Wow, now that's an obvious statement LOL

I evaluated a dog a while back as a possible stud dog. BR titled, street dog with over 15 bites to his credit. Awesome pedigree, I so wanted to be impressed. The first thing we did with him was send him on an FR style face attack. Esquive on entry, and a strong barrage. He took one smack on the entry, and decided he didn't want to play anymore and went back to his handler. After I got done yelling at the decoy (he'd shown the dogs problem, no reason to keep the barrage up and hold the dog off, this officer had to hit the streets with the dog next time they went to work) we worked the dog through the issue as much as we could. Then we did some BR style bitework, and the dog looked like king kong. Came through the environmental stuff with no hesitation, huge forward grips, etc. But IMO he'd shown his true character with that first attack, and then the subsequent bites we did trying to rebuild his confidence.

Similar situation, different dog. This one was actually a GSD. Was at a seminar and one of the people had a litter from this dog, a club member was looking for a pup, so we asked if we could see the sire work. Same situation, we did an FR style face attack first. This dog was esquived 4 or 5 times, but he never gave up trying to get that bite. Picked himself up off the ground after every esquive, tried to penetrate the barrage, and finally did manage to get his bite and hang on. He didn't bite as pretty as the BR dog did, but he showed more character IMO because he didn't give up trying.

When I look at a dog, I want to see a number of things. But one thing I look at is how do they react to something they haven't seen before in the work? It's one thing for the dog to stop and go "what is this, and how do I handle it?" It's entirely another thing for a dog to say "I don't want to do this anymore" and turn and run. Then not be willing to go back after that. I've seen plenty of dogs that started out in a new situation or scenario with a "what the heck, how do I work through this" response. But they stand there and try to figure it out. And you show them what to do, and soon they are busting through things like they aren't even there. Be it a barrage, a pile of boxes, vehicles, whatever. Take that FR dog, who has only ever worked on an FR field, and see how they handle that slick floor and pile of boxes, penny jug, etc. Take that BR dog who has seen 1000 slick floors and penny jugs and see how they work through an FR style of barrage. Or the Sch dog who has only ever seen the Sch field, what do they do when the decoy refuses to let them have the forearm?

Final thought on my ramble :lol: I think holding a dog off, and chasing a dog, are two very different things. I've seen many dogs who tried something repeatedly, without success, then finally just stopped and stood there like "what do I do now"? That IMO is not in the same category as a dog who said "I give up, I'm leaving" and heads back to the handler. The first one can be shown other methods to be successful (how to penetrate the barrage, or hit the pivot so they aren't esquived, or go through/over/around the pile of boxes, etc) The second one is much harder to fix because they have already shown their response to adversity is to leave.


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

My question is....did the dog leave because the guy is dressed in a suit and he knows it is a game and doesn't want to play it? When the handlers adrenalin is pumping in a real life situation, the dog can read that. He knows this is the real deal. Would that same dog back off then? When many animals are exposed to the real deal many times, playing games loses it's excitement. I had a friend take two dogs to a protection trainer for an evaluation. The trainer threw stuff around to see if they had any prey drive. Both dogs sat their and looked at the owner like, what is this nonsense? Both dogs have killed a lot of game and even though they grew up playing fetch, it is pretty iffy anymore because the real deal is where it is at for them.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote:My question is....did the dog leave because the guy is dressed in a suit and he knows it is a game and doesn't want to play it?

Quite honestly this is overestimating a dogs ability. I cannot believe that dogs have that much going on in their heads. Avoidance is avoidance.


----------



## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote:My question is....did the dog leave because the guy is dressed in a suit and he knows it is a game and doesn't want to play it?
> 
> Quite honestly this is overestimating a dogs ability. I cannot believe that dogs have that much going on in their heads. Avoidance is avoidance.


i agree 100%. to me, the situation would be amplified in a "real" encounter because the crutch of equipment is not present.


----------



## Greg Long (Mar 27, 2006)

> Quote:My question is....did the dog leave because the guy is dressed in a suit and he knows it is a game and doesn't want to play it?
> Quite honestly this is overestimating a dogs ability. I cannot believe that dogs have that much going on in their heads. Avoidance is avoidance.
> 
> i agree 100%. to me, the situation would be amplified in a "real" encounter because the crutch of equipment is not present.
> ...


----------



## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Greg Long said:


> > Quote:My question is....did the dog leave because the guy is dressed in a suit and he knows it is a game and doesn't want to play it?
> > Quite honestly this is overestimating a dogs ability. I cannot believe that dogs have that much going on in their heads. Avoidance is avoidance.
> >
> > i agree 100%. to me, the situation would be amplified in a "real" encounter because the crutch of equipment is not present.
> > ...


----------



## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

no wait, i know what i should have done. i should have gone over to the handlers whose dogs did not do well and tell them that they should take long walks on the beach with their dog, climb ladders in attics and walk tightropes over a burning pool of gasoline. then and only then would their dog truly understand that bite means bite and the dog will then go forward forsaking his own personal safety and bite the badguy regardless of the obstacle.

yeah, that would go over like a fart in church...


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote:I am finally beginning to understand why you guys cant comprehend.Thank you Tim and Jeff for clearing that up.Good luck with it.

I can't wait for the mystic response here. :roll: 

So you have your safety in a dogs hands, and the cull runs off.


----------



## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Don Turnipseed said:


> My question is....did the dog leave because the guy is dressed in a suit and he knows it is a game and doesn't want to play it? When the handlers adrenalin is pumping in a real life situation, the dog can read that. He knows this is the real deal. Would that same dog back off then? When many animals are exposed to the real deal many times, playing games loses it's excitement.


In this specific case, as soon as the bitework was done in more of a Belgian Ring style (lots of environmental stuff, but not as much actual decoy opposition) this dog suddenly looked great. Came in fast, forward hard gripping on the suit, etc. So no, I don't think it had anything to do with "real" vs "fake" and everything to do with the dogs comfort level with different types of opposition. 



> I had a friend take two dogs to a protection trainer for an evaluation. The trainer threw stuff around to see if they had any prey drive. Both dogs sat their and looked at the owner like, what is this nonsense? Both dogs have killed a lot of game and even though they grew up playing fetch, it is pretty iffy anymore because the real deal is where it is at for them.


I don't think this is a "real" vs "fake" thing but simply a case of what triggers those dogs prey drive. I'd be curious just how into the fetch they were when they were growing up, I doubt they would have been classified as "crazy" about it even as youngsters. Many dogs with drive, but not over the top drive, will start to develope a preference for certain prey objects, and ignore other lower value objects. You hear people mention all the time "my dog doesn't really like to play fetch with X, but goes nuts about playing fetch with Y". I've seen dogs that are nuts over one type of prey, but pay little attention to another type. Be it a toy, animal, or whatever. We had a Springer Spaniel growing up who killed small animals all the time, but would only chase a ball if he really felt like it. Later one we had a Lab mix who was insane for the ball, but paid very little attention to a squirrel or rabbit. My sister's Tervuren is the same, tons of drive for the ball (or any other toy), was VERY turned on when we took him herding, but will stand and watch a rabbit run away from him. If he does give chase, it's brief and not intense.


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Kadi, I am glad to see you are aware of, and better yet, understand that some dogs are very capable of standing down during a game(because he can't beat the suit) but that same dog is unlikely to do so at other times when he is keying on the handlers intensity and adrenalin along with the subjects. The dog had 15 bites so he does know when there is no suit it is anything goes. How he went back to the handler would be the telling part of this scenario I would guess, but I am not a trainer.


----------



## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Kadi, I am glad to see you are aware of, and better yet, understand that some dogs are very capable of standing down during a game(because he can't beat the suit) but that same dog is unlikely to do so at other times when he is keying on the handlers intensity and adrenalin along with the subjects. The dog had 15 bites so he does know when there is no suit it is anything goes. How he went back to the handler would be the telling part of this scenario I would guess, but I am not a trainer.


Unfortunately in this case I suspect the 15+ street bites were more a case of the dog never had a suspect stand, face him, and whap him one as he was coming in for the bite then get out of the way (preventing him from getting his reward before he even realized he'd be hit). It's possible with more (better?) training the dog would have been better prepared for the opposition and would have preformed better. We'd all love to have King Kong, who can be thrown into any new situation, no prior prep work at all, and have the dog show intense power and committment. But the reality is most of the dogs out there need to have a little prep work before they can shine. 

I think the fact that afterwards the dog worked solidly on the suit in a more environmental style of work shows the dog is very interested in biting the man in the suit, he just wasn't willing to deal with the level of pressure he recieved initially. If nothing was done in training afterwards to fix the issues that were exposed, from what I saw that day I would expect this dog to behave the same way (leave) if he was sent on a suspect who was confrontational, faced him without showing fear, and smacked him one as he came in for the bite.


----------



## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I can't wait for the mystic response here. :roll:


go through the environmental stressors you will. the bad guy you will bite.


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Tim Martens said:


> Jeff Oehlsen said:
> 
> 
> > I can't wait for the mystic response here. :roll:
> ...


 :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

May the force (PD) be with you!


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I am the guy that gets pulled over for having a convertable in a no convertable zone, then gets dragged out and beaten. They call it the wood shampoo.

That was some funny stuff!


----------



## Greg Long (Mar 27, 2006)

> if you would care to contribute your wealth of knowledge on the subject of PSD street deployments please do. otherwise your sniping, worthless little comments from afar are not needed or wanted...
> 
> 
> > There is no point in further dicussion because you will never understand the most basic principle.You will never give the dog enough credit to find out if it works or not.You are blinded by your own acceptance.
> ...


----------



## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Greg Long said:


> As far as sniping....that goes both ways.


bullsh!t. when you posted your "article", i replied with a detailed, cogent response. if i remember correctly, my reply was longer than your "article". you may not have agreed with my response, but i took the time to explain where i was coming from.

you come into my thread and reply with "you'll never get it". that is sniping. you provide no basis for your comment (as usual) and you add nothing to the conversation.


----------



## Bryan Colletti (Feb 16, 2007)

Tim Martens said:


> So yesterday i participated in a training day put on by the western states police canine association. about 50 dog/handler teams. they broke us up into groups and there were 5 scenarios that we rotated through. there were 8 or 9 in my group.
> quesiton...what does this poor performance mean?
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Bryan Colletti (Feb 16, 2007)

then runs about 15 feet deep into a room with slick floors, boxes and more empty jugs strewn about on the floor. you sent the dog and the decoy kicks the jugs on the floor at the dog :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Now Tim, here is a scenario for you. I will be working with a Prison Officer whose dog is strong but stresses a bit easily. He was confronted by a Prisoner and when the Handler sent the dog, the Prisoner started throwing boxes in his face, the dog simply turned around in frustration and bit the handler instead. A much easier and closer bite to get. My point here is, if you train hard in scenarios like this, you will see this weakness early on and either fix it or flunk the dog.

Bryan


----------

