# Limited Options



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

How would you approach training a dog when your only options are clicker, verbal praise, ecollar tone, and ecollar correction. The handler cannot reliably talk when she wants to, and is physically unable to hold a leash or lean forward.

And I need to somehow use operant conditioning and NOT kill the dog's drive so we can tug, play fetch, etc.

Right now I am retraining house manners within these guidelines. I'm unsure on how to not ruin her for task training.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

If the handler cannot reliably talk when she wants to, and is physically unable to hold a leash or lean forward, how will that person take care of the dog ?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Can the handler communicate without talking when necessary, like with sign language?


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> If the handler cannot reliably talk when she wants to, and is physically unable to hold a leash or lean forward, how will that person take care of the dog ?


Her husband cares for the dog's needs and helps in training as best he can. The dog is with me for training now, but when she was with them, he tethered her to the wheelchair and they were stuck with that situation until he got home from work. 

Obviously the dog is intended to work as a service dog. Retrieval and opening doors mostly.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Can the handler communicate without talking when necessary, like with sign language?


Not really. Talking is easier than motions, except timing is unreliable for markers.


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## Linda Flemmer (Jun 16, 2009)

Have you thought about uttered noise rather than speech? (Grunts, clicks, etc.)

If you can describe the person's full range of abilities & disabilities, we might be able to help more.

Linda


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

The handler is in a motorized wheelchair. She cannot twist her torso. She cannot lean forward more than 15 or 20 degrees. She cannot reach out past her knees. She cannot grip a leash, open a crate or anything like that. She can press buttons with one finger of one hand.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

What about a noisemaker of some sort or variable lights that she can trigger for certain behaviors?


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## Erica Boling (Jun 17, 2008)

A computer could talk for her, and there are different technologies that are available that are not as big as a regular computer. Of course, you have to rely on batteries and stuff... but people with disabilities have been doing some amazing things with the help of technology. If she can push a button, perhaps something can be arranged where technology helps her communicate with the dog. Can she tap/move her foot, fingers, etc. to give any kind of gesture? Perhaps using some kind of noise to get attention with head nods, finger movements, etc. Dogs are so sensitive to our gestures, breathing, etc. I bet if you have a really sensitive dog, you could even change your breathing, the way you sniff, etc. and communicate that way.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Nicole Stark said:


> What about a noisemaker of some sort or variable lights that she can trigger for certain behaviors?


I think we're OK on cues. It's the markers that are hard. The ecollar tone feature will fix the "ot" and I guess we'll use the clicker too.

But we can't reward with food at this point. It is extremely difficult for the handler to give a treat. So can I really use the clicker? How valuable would it really be?

I am used to training HIGHLY motivated dogs. This dog is basically being trained in a way that discourages motivation. :shrug:


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Does she have good enough control over the wheel chair to use the movement of it as a marker?


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Nicole Stark said:


> Does she have good enough control over the wheel chair to use the movement of it as a marker?


 
hmmm.... that's a thought. It makes "click" noise that the dog understands as "let's go!"


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

About the treats, what about offering them is problematic? Is it timing, holding, retrieving? Could the dog be permitted to administer its own reward via a treat dispensing system?


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Nicole Stark said:


> About the treats, what about offering them is problematic? Is it timing, holding, retrieving? Could the dog be permitted to administer its own reward via a treat dispensing system?


Timing is the problem. And just the difficulty of grasping a treat. The treats she can pinch and pick up are larger dry treats that the dog has to stop and chew - and she lies down to do that. Screws up motivation and rythym.

I think a treat dispenser would be pretty cool!


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## Linda Flemmer (Jun 16, 2009)

Anne,

Part of the trouble with helping you is that you simply haven't given us a very good picture of the lady's abilities with speech or utterances, ability to grasp, range of motion throughout her body, etc. As a registered nurse who has worked in rehab, what you are telling me sounds like what I heard from families who truly didn't understand that even LITTLE things can be built upon.

Ask if the family has worked with an Occupational Therapist - they must be hooked into the system if she has a motorized wheelchair. The OT can help you optimize what this lady can do, especially if you can verbalize what you want her to do with or for the dog. You'd be amazed at the neat things available to a good OT that could make markers & rewards VERY doable in this dog's training.

Linda


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## Tanith Wheeler (Jun 5, 2009)

How about rigging up something like this http://www.maryray.co.uk/product_pages/clickandtreat.html

Have seen them demonstrated.


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## Linda Flemmer (Jun 16, 2009)

Tanith Wheeler said:


> How about rigging up something like this http://www.maryray.co.uk/product_pages/clickandtreat.html


Pretty neat item for a disabled person, if she has the manual dexterity to load it. Thanks for showing us this!

Linda


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

That is pretty cool, too bad it wasn't set up like a shot gun or a rifle to offer more than one treat after you trigger the reward. At least, it looked to me like it was a one shot deal.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Cool device! never heard of that before.

For now, I've decided for treat delivery to use a BIG treat. I'm using Science Diet TD. She can pick these up. And teaching the dog to put her feet up on me and take the treat from my hand when my hand is against my chest. This (I hope) will mimic her needing to come UP to the handler for anything/everything.

I am using a toungue-click for "let's go." This compares to the click the power wheelchair makes. I think I am going to also make this the cue for "come to heel".

I am tethering her to me in public access as she would be tethered to the wheelchair. This eliminates my habit of tugging on the leash.

I have to slow down my pace of training to mimic what the handler can do.

My plan in training/retraining is to teach ONE (maybe two) behavior(s) per week, and meet with the handler to make sure that what I'm doing is working for her and that she can get the dog to do it.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Sounds like a plan.

How does this generally work? I assume you remove the dog from the clients home for training, yes? If so, how often do you go back to the home as you are training and do you video document your training so the client is able to track/observe the progress and refer back to it later for trouble shooting. Or do you return regularly to test and tune things a bit? Just curious how it works for clients who need to utilize dogs trained by somewhat unconventional methods.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

This is an odd canse for me. Normally, I have clients with psychiatric disabilities and no physical limitations. I train them to train their own dogs through private lessons.

We were trying that arrangement, but not getting any progress. (Actually getting much worse!)

So this is pretty awkward for me. In the one case where I completely trained a mobility dog for 2 years before placing it with a handler, we still have problems with the dog being all bonded to me. I'm trying to walk a fine line with getting the job done, but not letting her bond to me.

I don't know how long this arrangement will last. Possibly 10 months? (Until she is 18 months old.)


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## Tanith Wheeler (Jun 5, 2009)

Nicole Stark said:


> That is pretty cool, too bad it wasn't set up like a shot gun or a rifle to offer more than one treat after you trigger the reward. At least, it looked to me like it was a one shot deal.


It's set up with a clicker on the handle and the trigger connects to the ball by string / wire, similar to the grabbers you use to pick up litter. I think it would be fairly simple to make something similar.

I have a dog who 'when in drive' will bite the target rather than follow or touch, so I didn't buy one because I doubt it would withstand shepherd teeth.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Anne Vaini said:


> This is an odd canse for me. Normally, I have clients with psychiatric disabilities and no physical limitations. I train them to train their own dogs through private lessons.
> 
> We were trying that arrangement, but not getting any progress. (Actually getting much worse!)
> 
> ...


I can imagine how difficult that might be. Is there a specific breed or type of dog that tends to do best under these circumstances? Seems it would be really difficult to find the kind of balance necessary for the project to be remarkably successful.

You mentioned opening doors and retrieving things is that the general scope of the activities required of this particular dog? How does the dog open doors and what types of objects does the dog need to retrieve? I'm not sure why I find this subject so interesting - maybe because it sounds so uniquely challenging.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Nicole Stark said:


> I can imagine how difficult that might be. Is there a specific breed or type of dog that tends to do best under these circumstances? Seems it would be really difficult to find the kind of balance necessary for the project to be remarkably successful.
> 
> You mentioned opening doors and retrieving things is that the general scope of the activities required of this particular dog? How does the dog open doors and what types of objects does the dog need to retrieve? I'm not sure why I find this subject so interesting - maybe because it sounds so uniquely challenging.


I'm using a lab x golden for this dog. She looks like lab x hound though.

The dog could already open lever doors at my house to let herself in from the backyard. :lol: But it is trained on a lever door with a ball on a rope. The rope is attached at the end of the lever, so when the dog tugs on the ball, it releases and opens the door.

We haven't talked about how she will open heavy commercial doors yet. The problem is always the handler getting his/her tug device back!

The dog has to retrieve everything, but we focus on pens/pencils, papers, bottles/cans, metals, key, things that make noise, things that flip over.

This dog will be asked to pull things off grocery shelves, so targeting and SOFT-MOUTHED will be a big deal! I need to pick up a laser pointer and pray that she responds to it without going nuts. :crossfingers:


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