# Training the Recall with an ECollar



## Megan Bays (Oct 10, 2008)

What methods do you use to train a recall with an e collar? 

How long do you like to condition the dog to the collar before you begin using the collar?


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

HERE'S how I do it. 

I don't condition the dog at all BEFORE the training. But I do afterwards.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Lou Castle said:


> HERE'S how I do it.
> 
> I don't condition the dog at all BEFORE the training. But I do afterwards.


We never do that. IMO a dog shouldn't be punished if he doesn't know exactly what he's doing wrong.
So first we teach the recall with a reward (other bite sleeve) and as soon as he knows very well what to do, he gets an ecollar stimulation *if necessary*.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

put the collar on the dog for a days or weeks. Have the dog wear it around the house. When you train the dog wears it, when you play the dog wears it. At this point the dog only wears it and nothing but normal stuff happens.

You need to work on two things at first. The dog needs to know "PLACE" or CRATE etc... a command that makes the dog go away from you. Then the dogs needs to know a command where the dog comes to you. 

Work on PLACE first. Put the collar on the lowest setting where the dog can slightly feel it. Bring the dog to within a couple of feet of his PLACE. Give the command and turn on the collar with the continuous setting. As soon as the dog goes to his PLACE then the collar goes off. You can guide the dog at first if necessary. Then you increase the distance. Soon the dog will bolt to his PLACE. Then work with no collar correction.

After PLACE is ready then work on RECALL. Put the dog in some sort of stay position. Maybe use a lead if necessary. Call the dog and turn on the collar with the continuous setting. (lowest setting) When the dog comes then turn it off.

The idea is to create safe zones. Think of it like this, what do you do when you walking about and it suddenly starts raining? You look for cover to get out of the rain or you in essence look for a safe zone.

If you do this correctly the ecollar is nothing more than a motivator. I have a Dogtra collar with a stim range from 1-127 I have never gone past 18 with the exception of shit eating and rattlesnakes.

There is one guy in our club that does a great job with the ecollar and his dog is amazing (he uses the method above) There is a guy I know from another local club that has his dog totally ****ed up from the use of the ecollar. In fact he DQ'd from a regional trial when the dog left the field. This was right at the end of the trial after the reattack. The dog is holding the helper and the handler comes up. There was simply too much pressure from for the dog. He had pressure in front from the helper and pressure from the approaching handler...the dog folded and bolted from the field.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Martine Loots said:


> We never do that. IMO a dog shouldn't be punished if he doesn't know exactly what he's doing wrong.


If I was working at the level of stim that most people are, I'd not be doing this either. But I'm working at the level where the dog first perceives it. I find it with THIS METHOD. That level of stim is almost universally described by people who feel it as _a buzz, a tingle or a tap. _ Children who feel it usually giggle. 



Martine Loots said:


> So first we teach the recall with a reward (other bite sleeve) and as soon as he knows very well what to do, he gets an ecollar stimulation *if necessary*.


What you are doing is teaching the recall with a reward and then *proofing it * with the Ecollar. This is not the question that was asked. 

You are using the Ecollar the way that most people do. You teach the behavior with some other method and then *proof it * with the Ecollar. This is merely substituting the Ecollar for the leash. You can achieve lots of success by doing this, but you limit the Ecollar to a punishing device, instead of one that can be used for guidance.


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## Dave Cartier (Dec 2, 2009)

Lou Castle said:


> HERE'S how I do it.
> 
> I don't condition the dog at all BEFORE the training. But I do afterwards.


Lou has an excellent protocol on training recall (and other commands) with e-collars. I use the same basic method but alter slightly depending on the dog, and reaction to stimuli.

Of course, the working level is found by watching the dogs reaction. It is set at the level that the dog first perceives the stim. (low,low,low) then move up the scale until the dog shows an ear flick, head cocked to the side, or looking behind them to see where the stim is coming from.

You will see vast improvement when the dog becomes aware that his actions control the stim.

Distraction level is much different.

Most collar mfg.'s will supply their own set of instructions and are basically escape/avoidance training.

I do follow the protocol of putting the collar on every day for about two weeks w/out using the transmitter. Also handle transmitter a lot. The dog must not make a connection between the transmitter and stim.

Great way to make the disconnect between handler/dog. Just worked on a lab/GSD that was a protest biter. When corrected w/ prong or choke the dog just reacted. He'll come right up the leash at you. Put the e-collar on and total total disconnect. No handler-dog conflict.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Chris Michalek said:


> put the collar on the dog for a days or weeks. Have the dog wear it around the house. When you train the dog wears it, when you play the dog wears it. At this point the dog only wears it and nothing but normal stuff happens.


Lots lf people condition the dog to the collar like this. I know of one gun dog trainer who has the dog wear the collar for 3–4 months before he begins using it. If you have the luxury of that much time then I'd suggest doing it. But most people do not. they have an issue that needs to be addressed NOW! And so I have them use the collar immediately and afterwards do the desensitization. The protocol is on my site. 



Chris Michalek said:


> You need to work on two things at first. The dog needs to know "PLACE" or CRATE etc... a command that makes the dog go away from you. Then the dogs needs to know a command where the dog comes to you.


There are issues that arise with doing this first. One you'll see later. I teach the recall first for a couple of reasons. The first is that failing to come when called is the most common issue that people have problems with. It's the single most important command as it will call the dog away from danger in the environment. The second reason is that I think it should be _"the default command."_ That means when the dog is unsure of himself, when he's stressed or when he's afraid it's the one that he'll _"default"_ to. 



Chris Michalek said:


> Work on PLACE first. Put the collar on the lowest setting where the dog can slightly feel it. Bring the dog to within a couple of feet of his PLACE. Give the command and turn on the collar with the continuous setting. As soon as the dog goes to his PLACE then the collar goes off. You can guide the dog at first if necessary. Then you increase the distance. Soon the dog will bolt to his PLACE. Then work with no collar correction.


I use a similar method for teaching "place" but I don't teach it first. 



Chris Michalek said:


> After PLACE is ready then work on RECALL. Put the dog in some sort of stay position. Maybe use a lead if necessary. Call the dog and turn on the collar with the continuous setting. (lowest setting) When the dog comes then turn it off.


My method is similar as to the use of the Ecollar, but this method requires that the dog know and be reliable on the stay before teaching the recall. That will not be the case with many dogs. 



Chris Michalek said:


> The idea is to create safe zones. Think of it like this, what do you do when you walking about and it suddenly starts raining? You look for cover to get out of the rain or you in essence look for a safe zone.


This can lead to problems as we'll see. A _"safe zone [aka safe spot]"_ is a superstition that the dog develops because he's not stimmed (he's safe from it) in that spot. I don't want to create safe zones for longer than an instant. As soon as the safe zone develops with the handler in the recall, I have the owner/trainer teach the sit to break that superstition. 



Chris Michalek said:


> If you do this correctly the ecollar is nothing more than a motivator.


I'm not a fan of the use of this term _"motivator"_ for the Ecollar or any other device that's used to administer punishment, as it leads to confusion if the topic of Operant Conditioning (OC) comes up, and it tends to in these discussions. Going by this thought process, one can call a leash and pinch collar _"a motivator"_ because they "motivate" the dog to avoid a correction. 



Chris Michalek said:


> There is one guy in our club that does a great job with the ecollar and his dog is amazing (he uses the method above) There is a guy I know from another local club that has his dog totally ****ed up from the use of the ecollar. In fact he DQ'd from a regional trial when the dog *left the field. *This was right at the end of the trial after the reattack. The dog is holding the helper and the handler comes up. *There was simply too much pressure from for the dog. He had pressure in front from the helper and pressure from the approaching handler...the dog folded and bolted from the field. * [Emphasis added]


Here is the issue that I've been alluding to. When the place command is taught first *IT becomes * the default behavior. When this dog was stressed as you described he defaulted to going to look for his "place." If the recall was taught first, he'd have defaulted to the recall. He'd have had points deducted for this but might not have been DQ'd. 

There are other issues with teaching _"safe spots"_ especially with dogs that must range from the handler such as police and SAR dogs. I've seen such dogs refuse to leave the handler's side when a _"safe spot"_ is taught "too hard." This too, is discussed on detail on my site. 

I prefer to use the Ecollar as a system for training, not just for something that might be applied wwhen there's an issue or other methods don't give the desired results.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

I really like Chris's post, it doesn't get much more clearer than that explanation. 

The e-collar for me was a bit of a mystery I've owned one for over 18 months before I felt comfortable using it. Basically there is no-one up here who knew how to train with it using it as a motivator, it was all escape training. Plus the French Ring club I trained at, the TD was anti e-collar for whatever reason. It worked good for the shit eating but I had no real clue on how to use it otherwise. 

We started to use it for recalls on other training fields. But it was still not utilized to it's full potential due to my inexperience in using it or even knowing when to use it. I talked to a master of the e-collar from Europe (a respected French Ringsport judge) a few times a person who put over 2 dozen dogs to FRIII as he has learnt to use the e-collar in conjunction with marker training using clickers. I then set out to learn as much as I could about this technique. See this post for more info. http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f30/e-collar-training-clickers-12665/ 

I only started to get it once I did a one day seminar with Waleed Maalouf from NY http://www.moderncaninesolutions.com/index.html in Montreal this past fall. It was a seminar more geared towards pets than working dogs but Waleed did open my eyes to the big picture. 

I found out that the way I was using my e-collar with my dog was freaking her out. Even with all the so called collar conditioning .. she knew she was getting set up. Her whole demeanor would change when around work. Outside of the work scenario she couldn't care less about wearing the collar, but when the exercises were presented she damn well knew. To smart for her own good I guess. 

It was other little things as well such as collar placement, size of the electrodes, fitting, deconditioning the collar. Stuff like that really helped, I know it is really basic but it is knowledge like that really helped my confidence in using the tool. 

I think the biggest thing that helped out the collar wise aspect of my dogs issues was getting a dummy collar and training with leash and long line with a correction collar like a prong with either the dummy or real e-collar on her. So know she always has the dummy collar on during the day and I don't have to worry about her smashing the 'real' collar into a fence or tree. The dummy collar is perfect for collar conditioning without the chance of killing the real one. 

As with any type of training it is language. The dog needs to know what the 'word' is before you apply any correction. I'm with Chris training a 'place' .. 'crate' or other simple task is the way to go at first. Before training the recall. In training the recall you need to guide the dog back to you using a long line at first. So there is a bit more involved than just asking the dog to come and stimming the shit out of the dog. To me just using the e-collar without physical guidance from a long line while marking the 'right' behaviour at the end of the recall it all becomes escape training. There is some steps you should follow and setting up the dog for success as to not let the dog put himself in error. Chris has it right.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Lou Castle said:


> Here is the issue that I've been alluding to. When the place command is taught first *IT becomes * the default behavior. When this dog was stressed as you described he defaulted to going to look for his "place." If the recall was taught first, he'd have defaulted to the recall. He'd have had points deducted for this but might not have been DQ'd.
> 
> There are other issues with teaching _"safe spots"_ especially with dogs that must range from the handler such as police and SAR dogs. I've seen such dogs refuse to leave the handler's side when a _"safe spot"_ is taught "too hard." This too, is discussed on detail on my site.
> 
> I prefer to use the Ecollar as a system for training, not just for something that might be applied wwhen there's an issue or other methods don't give the desired results.



my definition of "SAFE SPOT" is doing the command correctly. I can agree with teaching recall first but I like to get the dog thinking about about moving forward rather than back to accomplish whatever command. I've done it both ways but I'm not a huge eCollar user. It's just a tool that I sometimes use. 

I call it a motivator because I have generally used it to build speed on send outs, recall and the retrieve. I use it for about 2% of my training and as a "finishing tool"


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Martine Loots said:


> We never do that. IMO a dog shouldn't be punished if he doesn't know exactly what he's doing wrong.
> So first we teach the recall with a reward (other bite sleeve) and as soon as he knows very well what to do, he gets an ecollar stimulation *if necessary*.


I TOTALLY agree. I teach a motivational recall too
The dog will return a lot faster if he's not afraid of being punished/Stimmed. I use the e-collar a lot for proofing (at low levels) but not for training. I also like restrained recalls as part of the process.
In general: I'd prefer to take training advise from someone who trains and trials (or is on the street in the case of a police dog) their own dog.

Too many behaviorists and Internet Experts are great at 
writing books and articles on how to do something BUT it is seldom as valuable as real experience


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

My girlfriend's pup at 5 months disappeared into the bush and didn't return after calling. 

She's used the E-collar before but never for such a young dog. Schwups - collar on - dog loose, and at first attempt to critter - ping! However strong the drive was, the dog is not a hard dog so success dependent also on dog's nature, not just on how intensive drive is.

In such a situation, I couldn't see any possibility of getting the pup / dog to "get used to the collar" for a few weeks.

A lot of e-collar users know how to use them, basically, but how many know their dogs?


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Dave Cartier said:


> Lou has an excellent protocol on training recall (and other commands) with e-collars.


Thanks for the kind words Dave. 



Dave Cartier said:


> Of course, the working level is found by watching the dogs reaction. It is set at the level that the dog first perceives the stim. (low,low,low) then move up the scale until the dog shows an ear flick, head cocked to the side, or looking behind them to see where the stim is coming from.


These are the most common signs of a dog that's feeling his first stim. HERE'S  some video of a dog feeling his first stim at the level where he can first perceive it. 



Dave Cartier said:


> You will see vast improvement when the dog becomes aware that his actions control the stim.


Dave makes an important point here. When the Ecollar is used only as a correction device (as when it's only to proof behaviors) it assumes the same importance to the dog a any other correction device. It comes on when he does not comply or when he does some undesirable behavior (poop eating has been mentioned.) 

But when the Ecollar is used for teach new behaviors with, even if the dog already knows the behaviors, the Ecollar becomes a communication device that expresses more than just the handler's displeasure. It become a device that tells the dog when he's wrong (as it does when it's used for corrections) but it also tell the dog WHEN HE'S RIGHT! Dogs trained with the Ecollar (and I'm referring to using it to teach with, not – as just a correction device) learn that when the stim starts they're _doing something wrong _ and that when it stops they're *doing something right. * This last part is very important and it does not come across clearly (if at all) when the Ecollar is just used to proof behaviors. 



Dave Cartier said:


> Distraction level is much different.


I agree. This is because the dog comes to believe that the environment is what caused the discomfort, not the handler. Some people want their dog to know that they've delivered the correction. With other tools, like the leash or the withholding of a treat, this is obvious. But it's not obvious with the Ecollar. And so the dog comes to believe that HIS ACTIVITY is what made the stim start and HIS ACTIVITY is what made it stop. 

If the dog believes that the handler gave the correction he'll perform when the handler is present, but perhaps not when the handler is not present. If the dog believes that his behavior made the stim start and stop, he'll perform whether or not the handler is present. This is important with such things as poop eating, digging holes and chasing game. 



Dave Cartier said:


> Great way to make the disconnect between handler/dog. Just worked on a lab/GSD that was a protest biter. When corrected w/ prong or choke the dog just reacted. He'll come right up the leash at you. Put the e-collar on and total total disconnect. No handler-dog conflict.


Eliminating conflict is one of my goals. Many forms of training have it at their core. Giving corrections when a dog won't release a bite is one such place. Such conflict often manifests as a handler bite. I've never had a handler bitten by his own dog during training.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> I TOTALLY agree.


 Do you totally agree with Chris' first post about teaching the PLACE first in his first post?...or is it you totally agree with his post where he agrees with Lou's advice on teaching the recall first in his second post?



> In general: I'd prefer to take training advise from someone who trains and trials (or is on the street in the case of a police dog) their own dog.
> 
> Too many behaviorists and Internet Experts are great at
> writing books and articles on how to do something BUT it is seldom as valuable as real experience


 Who is this directed towards?


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I guess you have to decide for yourself. 

Is an immediate correction necessary or not?

One of the best ways, imo, is to try out the e-collar with strong provocation - football, thrown out bite roll, etc. and deliver the no, followed by e-collar intervention. No one gets hurt, but you can see the results and adjust them.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Thomas Barriano said:


> I TOTALLY agree. I teach a motivational recall too


According to Chris, the Ecollar is _"nothing more than a motivator."_ If I was using the Ecollar at the levels that most probably are, I might agree. But I'm using it where the dog first feels the stim. It's so severe that the dog flicks his ear or looks at the ground. When people talk about low levels, usually they're talking about something that has no frame of reference. Often they mean that it's a relatively low number on the dial but that tells us nothing. HOWEVER saying that the stim is at the level that the dog first perceives it tells us that it's as low a setting as he can feel. FEW people who use the Ecollar only for proofing are at that level or if they are, they don't stay there for long. 



Thomas Barriano said:


> The dog will return a lot faster if he's not afraid of being punished/Stimmed.


Dogs aren't _"afraid of being punished/Stimmed'_ when the level is this low. It's been my experience that when people talk about dogs being _"afraid"_ they're NOT working at the level where the dog first perceives the stim. 



Thomas Barriano said:


> In general: I'd prefer to take training advise from someone who trains and trials (or is on the street in the case of a police dog) their own dog.
> 
> Too many behaviorists and Internet Experts are great at writing books and articles on how to do something BUT it is seldom as valuable as real experience


Thomas likes to sneak in these cheap personal attacks. Why he does this is a mystery, but he often does. Conveniently he forgets that I spent 5 1/2 years on the street with my own police dog and then trained my department's police dogs for the next 15 years or so. NOW I spend more time writing on the Net than in training. BUT THEN I spent lots of time training. 

In any case I still work with the police dogs of many local departments, helping those handlers with their Ecollar (and other work as well.) NOW I also work with SAR dogs, mostly with the Ecollar. NOW I do seminars, mostly on the Ecollar. I've got three scheduled for this year, one in California, one in Colorado and one in Rhode Island. Thomas hints that I have no "real experience" with the Ecollar but the truth is I've got about 25 years with the Ecollar and over 30 in training dogs. And there's a page of testimonials on my website from people, many of whom who have seen my work. HERE.  Thomas never has seen any of my work but he persists in these attacks.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Lou Castle said:


> You are using the Ecollar the way that most people do. You teach the behavior with some other method and then *proof it * with the Ecollar. This is merely substituting the Ecollar for the leash. You can achieve lots of success by doing this, but you limit the Ecollar to a punishing device, instead of one that can be used for guidance.


We've been using the ecollar for almost 30yrs now and not without success. We had multiple Belgian Champions NVBK highest level so I guess we're not to be called newbees...

I prefer to use a positive training method and I'll use a negative stimulation only when it's necessary.
As to using the low stimulations as a means of interacting with the dog, of course we do that but he won't get a negative stimulation if he doesn't know why.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Earlier Thomas Barriano wrote,


> In general: I'd prefer to take training advise from someone who trains and trials (or is on the street in the case of a police dog) their own dog.
> 
> Too many behaviorists and Internet Experts are great at writing books and articles on how to do something BUT it is seldom as valuable as real experience





Howard Knauf said:


> Who is this directed towards?


Feel free to accuse me of jumping to conclusions Howard; but since this is very similar to previous personal attacks that Thomas has made against me, I'll say he's referring to me again. As before, he's wrong, and there's no provocation for such an attack, but he's unable (or at least unwilling) to stop himself.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Lou Castle said:


> FEW people who use the Ecollar only for proofing are at that level or if they are, they don't stay there for long.


Sorry to say this, but this *I *see as a personal attack (referring to yr reaction to my 1st post)

We've been training with ecollar longer then you are and our results have always been top level (many titles with multiple dogs)
Ask any experienced dog trainer and he'll confirm it.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Martine Loots said:


> We've been training with ecollar longer then you are and our results have always been top level (many titles with multiple dogs)
> Ask any experienced dog trainer and he'll confirm it.



I believe an eCollar is necessary if you really want to compete at the highest levels. In schH heeling for example, the focus you can achieve w/o eCollar may be very very good but that last 1% is where you need the collar. I'm not to this point yet, but when I'm ready, the remote will be in another trainer's control and his job will be to watch the dog and ding him for the slightest look away or slightly bit of loosey gooseyness. At that point I will be giving ZERO body cues to the dog with the exception of turns.


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## Dave Cartier (Dec 2, 2009)

Gillian Schuler said:


> My girlfriend's pup at 5 months disappeared into the bush and didn't return after calling.
> 
> However strong the drive was, the dog is not a hard dog so success dependent also on dog's nature, not just on how intensive drive is.
> 
> ...


It does seem daunting when you first do the introduction of the e-collar. 

I refused to use an e-collar twenty some odd years ago because most of what I saw was high level stim, and dogs reacting to that by lose of hunt drive, shutting down, or worse bolting for places unknown. 

I start at the lowest perceived level and work up. No need to go higher unless they are poop eater, or cronic counter surfers etc.

Yes, it is sooo important to know the dog you are working, and what level they are on. Set them up to succeed.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Earlier I wrote,


> *FEW *people who use the Ecollar only for proofing are at that level or if they are, they don't stay there for long. [Emphasis added]





Martine Loots said:


> Sorry to say this, but this *I *see as a personal attack (referring to yr reaction to my 1st post)


I have a couple of suggestions. First is that you follow the advice of George Bernard Shaw who wrote, _"Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted."_ Second is that you note that the comment WAS NOT aimed at you. Hit that little right facing arrow [View Post] just after my name in your post and you'll see that it was in response to something that Mr. Barriano had written. Third is the qualifying word that I used and even put in caps, _"FEW people who use the Ecollar …" _ And finally, It's a comment *about training; *not about you personally (even if it was in response to something that you had written). There's a vast difference between a *personal attack* and an *attack on methods. * I suggest that you familiarize yourself with that difference. 



Martine Loots said:


> We've been training with ecollar longer then you are and our results have always been top level (many titles with multiple dogs)


Great to hear. Congratulations on your many successes. Of course they have nothing to do with this thread.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Megan McCallister said:


> What methods do you use to train a recall with an e collar?
> 
> How long do you like to condition the dog to the collar before you begin using the collar?


The original poster asked this specific question. Discussing types of training and the different ways of doing "things" can be beneficial to many. Disagreements about types of training can be a learning experience. 

Personal comments will only get this thread locked.

DFrost


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Lou Castle said:


> Earlier I wrote,
> 
> 
> 
> I have a couple of suggestions.


Thank you very much but I really don't need your suggestions





Lou Castle said:


> Great to hear. Congratulations on your many successes. Of course they have nothing to do with this thread.


Neither have your quotes about your "experience" or "so called personal attacks of other people"
You clearly think you are superman dog trainer, and this may impress some newbee but it takes more to impress me.
I really don't know you Mr Castle and I didn't have any prejudices either, but I don't like your attitude. I'm not a pupil so don't talk to me like a teacher ok, because I honestly doubt you can teach me anything.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

David Frost said:


> The original poster asked this specific question. Discussing types of training and the different ways of doing "things" can be beneficial to many. Disagreements about types of training can be a learning experience.
> 
> Personal comments will only get this thread locked.
> 
> DFrost


Totally agree.


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## Megan Bays (Oct 10, 2008)

Not had time to write a good reply yet, but have been reading all the information in the different links and on this thread.

Thanks Geoff for linking to that particular thread, I'd really like to learn more about that as well.

I'd really like to expand my knowledge on e collar training, and would really like it if you guys could refrain from cluttering up the thread and/or getting it locked .


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Martine Loots said:


> We've been using the ecollar for almost 30yrs now and not without success. We had multiple Belgian Champions NVBK highest level so I guess we're not to be called newbees...


I didn't notice anyone calling you _"newbees."_ I certainly didn't. As I said, _"You can achieve lots of success by doing this … "_ And you have. 



Martine Loots said:


> I prefer to use a positive training method and I'll use a negative stimulation only when it's necessary.


As I said, this is how most Ecollar work is done. But it's not the only way. I'm applying only minor discomfort at the start of the training and because of the result, that the dog understands that the stim is more than just punishment, I have no problems in doing so. 



Martine Loots said:


> As to using the low stimulations as a means of interacting with the dog, of course we do that but he won't get a negative stimulation if he doesn't know why.


The dogs pick up in just a very short time, why they're being stimmed.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Martine Loots said:


> We never do that. IMO a dog shouldn't be punished if he doesn't know exactly what he's doing wrong. So first we teach the recall with a reward (other bite sleeve) and as soon as he knows very well what to do, he gets an ecollar stimulation *if necessary*.


That's exactly what we work on with our recalls off the decoy. That's why at first I like the long line and a second handler on the field at first if I need to pop the dog back. Once the dog is clear on what the exercise is the long line is gone the e-collar becomes the long line to guide the dog. 

The key again is having the dog know what it is supposed to do before that requires guidance. It all starts as a pup. Such as restraining a pup as it's owner takes off up the field the owner then turns 20m up the field and calls the pup and the helping handler lets the pup go. That's the foundation and it is a needed step. 

The bite sleeve works great but sometimes as I'm sure someone else has found not just me .. that the distraction, critter, fight with the decoy in the dogs eyes can be overpowering vs a recall.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Martine Loots said:


> Thank you very much but I really don't need your suggestions


Based on you thinking that my comments were "personal attacks" I'll disagree. Heck they weren't even posted in response to something that you wrote! 

Earlier I wrote,


> Great to hear. Congratulations on your many successes. Of course they have nothing to do with this thread.





Martine Loots said:


> Neither have your quotes about your "experience" or "so called personal attacks of other people"


My comments about my experience were to defend against a personal attack from another member. He didn't mention me by name but he made identical comments to ones he's made before when he DID mention my name. They're not pertinent to the topic but they are in response to another attempt to hurt my credibility. 



Martine Loots said:


> You clearly think you are superman dog trainer


Actually I've said many times that I'm NOT an expert. That I just know a few things. 



Martine Loots said:


> and this may impress some newbee but it takes more to impress me.


I have neither the need nor the desire to impress you. The OP asked about how to teach a recall with an Ecollar and I gave an answer. So far, you've not. Instead you disagreed with my system and told us that you train the recall with other methods. 



Martine Loots said:


> I don't like your attitude.


You're not required to. I wonder why you feel a need to clutter up this thread with this information? 



Martine Loots said:


> I'm not a pupil so don't talk to me like a teacher ok,


If you don't like the way that I write, I suggest that you skip my posts. 



Martine Loots said:


> because I honestly doubt you can teach me anything.


Not with a mind that's as tightly closed as yours seems to be. lol. 

And since you're here. I'm sure that many have noticed that your post contains many personal attacks aimed at me that I've not returned. NOT ONE WORD in your post was about the topic. It was ALL about me. 

Any chance you might answer the OP's question? 

_ Sorry to continue the clutter Megan, but I can't let such scurrilous statements stand without responding to them. Earlier I pointed out that Martine had not answered your question, instead she attacked my method of teaching the recall. And now I've asked her if she's ever going to answer your question. I don't hold much hope. _


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## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

I read this as an answer to the original question.


> We never do that. IMO a dog shouldn't be punished if he doesn't know exactly what he's doing wrong.
> So first we teach the recall with a reward (other bite sleeve) and as soon as he knows very well what to do, he gets an ecollar stimulation *if necessary*.


It just doesnt agree with escape training. There's a lot of reading on the Dobbs site about using the ecollar in basically the same ways as Lou if you want to read more about it Megan.
http://www.dobbsdogs.com/library/index.html


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## Maria Janota (Sep 24, 2009)

Lou Castle said:


> HERE'S how I do it.
> 
> I don't condition the dog at all BEFORE the training. But I do afterwards.


I`m curious if dogs that had already been introduced to e collar as an strongly aversive simulus react differently to low levels then those that does it first time? Can it cause problems?


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## Dave Cartier (Dec 2, 2009)

Maria Janota said:


> I`m curious if dogs that had already been introduced to e collar as an strongly aversive simulus react differently to low levels then those that does it first time? Can it cause problems?


IMHO it does. They become very sensitive to even low level stim. Collar shy. I have seen this with people who have dogs on invisible fences, and have introduced their dogs to e-collar usage. If another trainer introduced the ecollar to a dog I am contracted to work I start from the beginning with my introduction protocol. ***Start LOW, LOW, LOW, and move up to first perception of stim.

In most dogs I have trained in this situation, more times than not they acclimate quickly, but tend to show signs of shutting down or are uneasy. I believe Lou terms this "learned helplessness". Mostly because people do not trust the invisible fence, or foo foo has breached it to get across the street, and they crank up the collar and fry the dog.](*,)

Anyone who signs up with me for training with an e-collar is made to feel the stim at their own dogs level before proceeding. That way they are reluctant to increase the level of the stim.

An e-collar is a training tool, as is a prong collar, target stick, clicker etc. They all can be utilized with effectiveness or they can be used incorrectly and totally mess up the dog.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Maria Janota said:


> I`m curious if dogs that had already been introduced to e collar as an strongly aversive simulus react differently to low levels then those that does it first time? Can it cause problems?


Great question Maria. Dogs that have received previous training with high level stim often make an association between it and the low level stim that they feel, even if it's at the level where they first feel it (even though it's only a small "buzz"). To them, it's the same thing. 

When finding their working level (defined as the level where they first can feel it) instead of the usual ear flick, head turn, flea–bite–scratch or look at the ground that is normally seen when doing this, you'll get a much more overt response. You may get a jump, or a vocalization, depending on how high the previous stims have been. 

To anthropomorphize, which I dislike doing but here it's appropriate, if I were to slap you in the face (forget for a moment that you'd probably kick my butt in response) five times in a row; on the sixth time that I moved my hand towards your face, you'd flinch, even if I was going to lightly pat you on the cheek. And this overreaction would continue for quite some time, even if I never slapped you again. But after some time, you'd realize that I was not going to slap you again and would stop the overreaction to my hand movement. 

Similarly it will take a dog some time before he stops overreacting to the stim where he first feels it and gives the characteristic responses. Of course the logical question is, "How long?" and the answer is, "It depends." It depends on how resilient the dog is; how driven he is; how sensitive he is; how "hard" he is and things of that nature. 

The few times I've done this it's taken a day or two. I find the level at which the dog shows that he feels it and then press the button randomly for awhile. Those who don't like stimming a dog unless he understands what's expected of him are probably suffering from apoplexy right now, but I've tried this on myself, giving someone else the transmitter and having them stim me randomly throughout the day as I was once challenged to do. It's a minor annoyance and that's it. Certainly less bothersome than a light headache. 

Once the dog stops overreacting, the training goes as described in the articles on my site. 

Thanks Maria, it's good to see a real question emerge from _"the clutter."_


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## Megan Bays (Oct 10, 2008)

Chris Michalek said:


> Work on PLACE first. Put the collar on the lowest setting where the dog can slightly feel it. Bring the dog to within a couple of feet of his PLACE. Give the command and turn on the collar with the continuous setting. As soon as the dog goes to his PLACE then the collar goes off. You can guide the dog at first if necessary. Then you increase the distance. Soon the dog will bolt to his PLACE. Then work with no collar correction.


Thanks for the explanations Chris. Is the reasoning behind teaching a command like place first to get the dog thinking about what it's doing?


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## Megan Bays (Oct 10, 2008)

Geoff Empey said:


> We started to use it for recalls on other training fields. But it was still not utilized to it's full potential due to my inexperience in using it or even knowing when to use it. I talked to a master of the e-collar from Europe (a respected French Ringsport judge) a few times a person who put over 2 dozen dogs to FRIII as he has learnt to use the e-collar in conjunction with marker training using clickers. I then set out to learn as much as I could about this technique. See this post for more info. http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f30/e-collar-training-clickers-12665/
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


Have you worked on the clicker training and e collar work any more since the thread died down Geoff, I'd be interested to hear more of your thoughts.

Do you care to elaborate more on the collar placement and stuff like that? Are there any posts on the forum relating to all of this basic stuff?

I have dummy collars  .


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## Megan Bays (Oct 10, 2008)

Martine Loots said:


> We've been using the ecollar for almost 30yrs now and not without success. We had multiple Belgian Champions NVBK highest level so I guess we're not to be called newbees...
> 
> I prefer to use a positive training method and I'll use a negative stimulation only when it's necessary.
> As to using the low stimulations as a means of interacting with the dog, of course we do that but he won't get a negative stimulation if he doesn't know why.


I may have missed it somewhere, but...

Martine do you use the e collar only as a correction, like an extension of the leash?

Is that whats referred to as "escape training?" Still trying to figure out all of the e collar terminonlogy .


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## Megan Bays (Oct 10, 2008)

Steve Strom said:


> I read this as an answer to the original question.
> 
> It just doesnt agree with escape training. There's a lot of reading on the Dobbs site about using the ecollar in basically the same ways as Lou if you want to read more about it Megan.
> http://www.dobbsdogs.com/library/index.html


Thanks for the link Steve!


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## Megan Bays (Oct 10, 2008)

Ok, for those who use the e collar as a stim before the command is given and stop after the command has been acheived, do you reward with a tug, food, etc or is the dog "turning off" the stim the reward?

I've worked on the recall with a long line with this dog, and he does great with the long line on. I'm having problems making progress with shorter line lengths and was looking to try something new. The dog is still young (9 months), can be sensitive to me, but also likes to blow me off.

Martine, would the way you would do it be give the command, dog doesn't listen, give stim and reel dog in with long line? Could you explain how you train it in a little more detail? I'm glad you chimed in on this as well, I'd love to know more of your thoughts about e collar work.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Pretty young still at 9 months, you could always put the e-collar away for awhile and just treat him like the pup that he is...


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## Megan Bays (Oct 10, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Pretty young still at 9 months, you could always put the e-collar away for awhile and just treat him like the pup that he is...


Yeah, I've thought about this... I've still not made my mind up about what I'm going to do yet, and we are still working on the recall with the long line. Was just looking for some more information to consider.

I've not used any training collars on him at all yet. I've been waiting on him to grow up, and trying to be as patient as possible with him. But it's been really cold lately and it's so not fun on waiting on him to decide to quit being an ass ](*,):-D!


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## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

Thats part of the argument Megan, that turning off the stim is a reward. You're having trouble with shorter line lengths?


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## Megan Bays (Oct 10, 2008)

Steve Strom said:


> Thats part of the argument Megan, that turning off the stim is a reward. You're having trouble with shorter line lengths?


Yup. I don't really like the idea that the reward is turning off the stim, it seems like there should be something better than that  . Then again I have basically no experience with e collars.


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## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

I've never used it for a recall although I am curious about proofing a formal obedience one with it.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Howard Knauf said:


> Do you totally agree with Chris' first post about teaching the PLACE first in his first post?...or is it you totally agree with his post where he agrees with Lou's advice on teaching the recall first in his second post?
> 
> Who is this directed towards?


>I totally agree with Martine, who's post I quoted.
>I was NOT replying to Chris and don't think a place command >has anything to do with the recall. I don't pay any attention to
>what Lou Castle advises.

"Who is this directed towards?"

>There is an old saying "If the shoe fits, wear it"


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Lou Castle said:


> Earlier Thomas Barriano wrote,
> 
> 
> 
> Feel free to accuse me of jumping to conclusions Howard; but since this is very similar to previous personal attacks that Thomas has made against me, I'll say he's referring to me again. As before, he's wrong, and there's no provocation for such an attack, but he's unable (or at least unwilling) to stop himself.



Lou,

My reply was to Martine, NOT to YOU and not to Chris's post
Sorry if your paranoia causes you to assume that when ever
anyone mentions Internet Experts, they're talking about you.
Once again we're getting another Lou Castle dominated topic heading for the crapper where you're more interested in blowing your own horn, then adding anything of value to the discussion :-(


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I locked and then reopend this thread because of a couple of legitimate requests and there is some good discussion going on here.
ANY insult, suggestion of an insult, accusation of an insult and THAT person's post will be removed.

It never ceases to amaize me how anyone can seriously take offence or feel the need to get into a pissing match with someone they have no respect for. 
Thier opinion should mean NOTHING to you. 

Bob Scott

ps I need no replies to my post!


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## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

Megan McCallister said:


> Yup. I don't really like the idea that the reward is turning off the stim, it seems like there should be something better than that  . Then again I have basically no experience with e collars.


Somewhere I remember reading that the recall was about the dogs joy of running to you, or somethng like that anyway. What kind of things have you been doing to make him want to run to you?


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Megan McCallister said:


> Is that whats referred to as "escape training?" Still trying to figure out all of the e collar terminonlogy


I discuss escape, avoidance and guidance training HERE.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Megan McCallister said:


> Ok, for those who use the e collar as a stim before the command is given and stop after the command has been acheived, do you reward with a tug, food, etc or is the dog "turning off" the stim the reward?


It depends on the dog and what he needs. Some do well with another reinforcement and some don't need it. 



Megan McCallister said:


> I've worked on the recall with a long line with this dog, and he does great with the long line on. I'm having problems making progress with shorter line lengths and was looking to try something new. The dog is still young (9 months), can be sensitive to me, but also likes to blow me off.


How sensitive a dog is to the handler has nothing to do with Ecollar work. In fact handler sensitive dogs often do better with Ecollar work than with leash work because dogs learn that the stim comes from his actions rather than from the handler. 

The Ecollar manufacturers say that a dog should be at least six months old before using an Ecollar. I agree with them.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Megan McCallister said:


> Do you care to elaborate more on the collar placement and stuff like that?


I discuss collar placement HERE.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Megan McCallister said:


> Yup. I don't really like the idea that the reward is turning off the stim, it seems like there should be something better than that . Then again I have basically no experience with e collars.


What we think should be rewarding is really immaterial. It's only what the dog thinks is rewarding that's important. After all these are animals that think their own poops are a delicacy! 

The removal of something uncomfortable is rewarding. Keep in mind that we're talking about discomfort on the level of a single flea bite. At least we are with my method.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Steve Strom said:


> Somewhere I remember reading that the recall was about the dogs joy of running to you, or somethng like that anyway. What kind of things have you been doing to make him want to run to you?


This is true of puppies as long as they're very young. But this dog is outgrowing that stage and moving to another one where the world is full of interesting things. When puppies are very young their owner is the whole world. But as they mature they discover other things are just as, or even more interesting. When that happens, the perfect "puppy recall" becomes less and less effective.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Megan McCallister said:


> Thanks for the explanations Chris. Is the reasoning behind teaching a command like place first to get the dog thinking about what it's doing?



the idea is for the dog to move forward and away from you to find a safe zone. 

I'm no eCollar expert but I know what has worked for me and several other people. While in some cases it's ok for the dog to come to you as a default behavior, which is why I agreed with Lou I think it's better for the dog to think about working through the pressure of being zapped rather than coming to the owner and shutting down. In general, you want to teach the dog that a safe zone can be found away from the handler as well as at the handler. I think, teaching recall first make it harder to teach the dog to move away under pressure. Recall is already a "safe zone" and something that was taught to the pup on day one.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> >I was NOT replying to Chris and don't think a place command >has anything to do with the recall.
> 
> I does when you're train with an eCollar. You want to teach the dog that "reward" or "safety" can be found away from the handler as well as at the handler's side.
> 
> ...


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Chris Michalek said:


> When you zap a dog, it's not always best for the dog to shut down and return to the handler. You want to dog to think he can move forward and work through pressure without being within close proximity to the handler.


I'm not sure how you're using the phrase "shut down" Chris. I think you're referring to the dog stopping whatever behavior he's doing that's pulling him away from the handler, such as chasing a cat. If so, I agree. 

I break the "by the handler superstition" by teaching the sit. The dog learns that "by the handler" is not a safe spot where he's never stimmed. Teaching the sit includes teaching the sit–at–a–distance so the dog learns that he must comply with a command whether he's far from the handler or near him.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Lou Castle said:


> I'm not sure how you're using the phrase "shut down" Chris. I think you're referring to the dog stopping whatever behavior he's doing that's pulling him away from the handler, such as chasing a cat. If so, I agree.
> 
> I break the "by the handler superstition" by teaching the sit. The dog learns that "by the handler" is not a safe spot where he's never stimmed. Teaching the sit includes teaching the sit–at–a–distance so the dog learns that he must comply with a command whether he's far from the handler or near him.



by shut down I mean stop working and stop looking for a solution so it defaults and comes to back to the handler in confusion. 

By safe zone, I mean correct behavior. When I say SIT, the safe zone is sitting wherever the dog happens t be. So I'll say SIT and hit the button, as soon as his butt is on the ground the stim goes off... YES and then we play tug or fetch. This works great for dogs that sit and platz at their own speed. There is only one speed when I train and that's as fast as ****ing possible. Of course it takes time to get to that point but that's what I reach for. 

If I'm working on duration SIT, dog SITS, I wait and then release to a tug or ball. After we progress, I might decide to play with my other dog while I have him in a sit. If he breaks the Sit- ZAP continuous stim until he sits again. The safe zone in this exercise is sitting where I told him to sit anything else results being in the middle of an electric storm.


If i am working on heeling off lead, if the dog gets out of position, it's as if HE is walking into an electric storm so he's forced to go back into the correct position to turn off the stim. The safe zone is proper heeling. Likewise, if he looks away, then he get's the stim until he looks at me again.

The bottom line is, the dog needs to know the exercises and your timing has to be great otherwise stick to what you know.


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## Dave Cartier (Dec 2, 2009)

Chris Michalek said:


> Thomas Barriano said:
> 
> 
> > >I was NOT replying to Chris and don't think a place command >has anything to do with the recall.
> ...


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Earlier Chris wrote,


> *When you zap a dog, * it's not always best for the dog to shut down and return to the handler. You want to dog to think he can move forward and work through pressure without being within close proximity to the handler. [Emphasis added]


And I responded


> I'm not sure how you're using the phrase "shut down" Chris …





Chris Michalek said:


> by shut down I mean stop working and stop looking for a solution so it defaults and comes to back to the handler in confusion.


That's not what I thought you meant but I think the difference we're having is based on semantics, not a difference in style or method. One issue is that I don't _"zap"_ a dog. To me that means to "hit him with a high level of stim" much higher than he'll perceive under a distracted (or at rest) state. Therefore the dogs that I work with never shut down or go into a _"state of confusion."_ 



Chris Michalek said:


> By safe zone, I mean correct behavior. When I say SIT, the safe zone is sitting wherever the dog happens t be.


NOOOOOOW I understand. You're using the concept of a _"zone"_ as something that the dog has been trained to do. I've not heard the term used like that. But I think you mean the same thing as I do when I say, "behavior." When I say "SIT" the only behavior that shuts off the stim is sitting, as you say, wherever the dog happens to be. 

I use the concept of a _"zone"_ to mean "an area" where the dog is safe from stim, not a behavior. I'm talking about, for example, an area around the handler while the recall is being trained where stim does not occur. 



Chris Michalek said:


> The bottom line is, the dog needs to know the exercises and *your timing has to be great *otherwise stick to what you know. [Emphasis added]


I know that not everyone has _"great timing,"_ but I don't think that precludes them from using an Ecollar any more than it precludes them from using a leash and correction collar. Not even the best professional has "perfect timing" for more than a short time when he first start working. Then his timing slips to "very good" and then, at the end of the day when he's tired, to just "good." As long as the dog is making the association between the stim and his behavior learning will occur. The better the timing the faster learning occurs. The poorer the timing, the more reps will be necessary for the dog to learn what's being trained. If someone has very poor timing such that the dog can not possibly make the association between the stim and its behavior, the owner should sell the dog and get a goldfish. 

My methods were developed for people with only average timing. I think that people who say that timing "must be *perfect * to use an Ecollar" are propagating a myth. My methods have the handler doing something at the same time that he presses the button on the Ecollar. Combining the two, makes it easier for most people to do. If one can clap his hands while tapping his foot in time to music then I think one can use an Ecollar.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Chris Michalek said:


> Thomas Barriano said:
> 
> 
> > >I was NOT replying to Chris and don't think a place command >has anything to do with the recall.
> ...


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## Maria Janota (Sep 24, 2009)

Thanks for your answers 
One more question; what do you do to mark undesired behaviours - f ex the dog is falling into regression - do you mark it immidiatly with your voice, do you wait with the stimm until he performs well or do you step back with training? I get it depends on the dog and a problem but what is the first thing you usually do?


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## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

Lou Castle said:


> This is true of puppies as long as they're very young. But this dog is outgrowing that stage and moving to another one where the world is full of interesting things. When puppies are very young their owner is the whole world. But as they mature they discover other things are just as, or even more interesting. When that happens, the perfect "puppy recall" becomes less and less effective.


Yeah, I understand that. I'm just wondering what Megans done up to now to give her dog the desire to run to her.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Chris Michalek said:
> 
> 
> > Hey Chris,
> ...


----------



## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

I've only used Lou's method and the dogs don't need collers and respond every single time. I have a dog with me everywhere i go and don't need a leash and it's so damn easy to train and the stim is so low and easy on the dogs that it's a win win. 

Every single person i've spoken to in person that talks about "escape" training changes their minds when they see how easy it is in person, they've never tried it and just read how bad it is. I hate having to give harsh corrections to my dogs, anybody that knows me knows this is a fact and i've found that the way Lou suggests is the quickest and easiest on the animals. I must be a wuss, lol 

One other thing, the term "escape training" confuses me, when you stim your dog at a high level and then it complies , isn't it "escaping" another correction?


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Maria Janota said:


> what do you do to mark undesired behaviours - f ex the dog is falling into regression - do you mark it immidiatly with your voice, do you wait with the stimm until he performs well or do you step back with training?


I'd like to hear the answer(s) to this question as well. What do you do if, for example, the dog has (supposedly, but not by me) been taught to return to heel when he feels the stim, but instead runs away and/or tries to get into the kennel/doghouse/crate/vehicle, etc.? The dog will _sometimes_ come to heel when the stim is felt. Other times, not - and proximity to handler doesn't matter.

Now, when I was first made aware of this problem by the person who was training the dog (this is a Lab, by the way), I was a bit confused as to why the dog was even given the _option_ of running away - why was he not on a line or something? - but I did not say anything at the time. Seems to me like if the trainer knew that the dog was having this issue, he would have put a line on the dog to help him get to where he needed to be and prevent him from being able to run to the kennel or whatever. Or was he trying to instill in the dog that running away did not work? 



Sorry. Did not mean to hijack.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

I'm with you, Al. I don't like the term "Escape" either. It has a very negative connotation. When I explain to some clients about how this works they seem to be put off sometimes. I then give them another way of looking at it...I tell them it's akin to their mother grabbing them by the earlobe and guiding them to wherever mom wants. Some mothers are nastier than others and can abuse the earlobe to get the same result as a nicer mother. If you're a heavy handed trainer then it's going to cause problems when trying to use the ecollar guiding technique.

Howard


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Megan McCallister said:


> Have you worked on the clicker training and e collar work any more since the thread died down Geoff, I'd be interested to hear more of your thoughts.
> 
> Do you care to elaborate more on the collar placement and stuff like that? Are there any posts on the forum relating to all of this basic stuff?
> 
> I have dummy collars  .


Always keep in mind it is not a collar (any collar) that trains a dog .. it is the guidance from it's handler that trains a dog.

I am always trying to move forward with the e-collar in conjunction with markers. We are on a bit of a training hiatus right now because she is pregnant and winter so we only train a hour or 2 a day and only one day with the club on the weekend and only obedience (no heavy bitework) as per the pregnancy. 

There really isn't an easy way to explain it outside of just doing it. I basically started doing it with short no pressure recalls in the house. Usually she is in her crate relaxing with the door open, in my case she is out of sight. 'X' "come" low stim "come" low stim "come" low stim "come" .. and when the dog is in sight "ggggoood girl" low stim "gggggood" low stim, "gggg" when the dog has recalled the instant she takes the position I have shown, no more stimulation and a click with a reward. 

The philosophy behind is it doesn't matter what collar you have on the dog, the positive reinforcement is always consistent , i.e. positive rewards and the steps to get those rewards never changes whatever the exercise. 

It's not a new thing trainers in Europe have been doing this for years. google Bart Bellon (Belon) as he is the king of using e-collars with this type of style. i.e recall at home = food reward or recall off a decoy = a reward bite on a sleeve. That can't change until trial day. 

Someone else on this thread has said with an e-collar can and will create problems if used improperly. There is lots of way to use in improperly. Not just including .. 

1. To high of a setting when the dog doesn't know what you are asking of it. 
2. Just to high of a setting for the situation. 
3. Improperly fitted or placed collar
which includes,

1. wrong length electrodes, usually too short meaning to get a proper contact you have to reef the collar down so hard to make contact it makes the dog uncomfortable. IMO the electrodes that come with most e-collars are only suitable for shorter coated dogs like most hounds, pits, boxers, dobes etc. The minute you are talking Malinois, Dutch or GSD don't hesitate go with at least the 5/8" points. 

2. If you are using one collar the placement should be only on the bottom 1/3 of the dogs neck. As the dog will pull away from a side where the stim is coming from. So it needs to be close to center bottom allowing for movement to prevent pressure necrosis. Having the longer points will help prevent the pressure necrosis as you don't have to have the collar so tight. 

It is very hard to explain it all in a internet post. Megan I don't know how far you are from NY in West Virginia but I'd recommend a proven e-collar trainer to show you the ropes, I learnt a lot more in a one day seminar with Waleed than I did pissing around for months with the tool. 

Hope this helps ..


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

Geoff,
The prongs aren't needed, you can use this instead, the dog can wear it comfortably all day http://www.mightypets.com/product.asp?3=1650


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

I've seen those before. Been meaning to order one but haven't got off my lazy arse and done it yet. I like the prices on that site. I've ordered a few things from there including my ecollar.

Howard


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Dave Cartier said:


> Exactly. Training a customers companion/pet is much different than training one of my retrievers for hunt work. The last thing I want from my dogs is "velcro dog". It makes training a send away / directed retrieve very difficult, let alone to get them to quarter.


Great point. For a pet there's really not much trouble with a "Velcro dog." I had one client, a very elderly man who had been jerked off his feet and severely injured by his dog who was trying to chase a cat. He WANTED a Velcro dog. At home the dog is completely a normal dog, but when he puts on the leash and Ecollar the dog won't leave his side. 

But as you say, it's a serious issue with some dogs. The police and SAR dogs must range away from their handlers sometimes to hundreds of yards. 



Dave Cartier said:


> Once the dog knows how to move away from you, I start to introduce a remote sit with stim, and can work on sending them in a different direction for blind retrieves. (handling the dog rather than let him hunt for object) Then increase the distance until they are in the next county!


I rarely teach the place any more. I get the distance as part of the sit and down training. 



Dave Cartier said:


> Once the dog understands HIS actions are causing the stim training is accelerated.


YES!


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Maria Janota said:


> One more question; what do you do to mark undesired behaviours - f ex the dog is falling into regression - do you mark it immidiatly with your voice, do you wait with the stimm until he performs well or do you step back with training?


I'm sorry Maria, I'm not certain I understand your question. Can you give a concrete example of what you mean by _"regression?"_ Are you referring to a dog that's confused or one that's disobeying a command because he's distracted?


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Kristen Cabe said:


> What do you do if, for example, the dog has (supposedly, but not by me) been taught to return to heel when he feels the stim, but instead runs away and/or tries to get into the kennel/doghouse/crate/vehicle, etc.? The dog will _sometimes_ come to heel when the stim is felt. Other times, not - and proximity to handler doesn't matter.


Kristen I think this is a sign of a confused dog and possibly one where the level of stim is too high. The dog is trying to make the stim stop but he's not sure what will do that, so as you describe, _"he runs away and/or tries to get into the kennel …"_ He's looking for something that will make the discomfort stop. 

I've seen this happen but only when people train with other methods first and then try to apply the Ecollar (as in proofing) without any guidance. They rely on the dog's previous training and expect him to recall. But if the dog has not been shown how to shut off the stim and/or if the level is too high the previous training might not let the dog figure out what will shut off the stim. Especially in the case where the stim level is too high for the dog at that moment. Then little thought is even possible. And so the dogs revert to default behaviors that have kept them safe before. They run. They try to seek shelter in places they know are safe from previous experience. 

With my method from the start the dog is guided into the ONLY behavior that will shut off the stim. He's not permitted or given the opportunity to guess wrong. He's stimmed and then pulled towards the handler. After he takes a few steps in that direction the stim is shut off. He learns very quickly that the only thing that makes the discomfort stop is to move towards the handler. 



Kristen Cabe said:


> Seems to me like if the trainer knew that the dog was having this issue, he would have put a line on the dog to help him get to where he needed to be and prevent him from being able to run to the kennel or whatever.


I agree. 



Kristen Cabe said:


> Or was he trying to instill in the dog that running away did not work?


It's possible I suppose. But I've not seen this work. Invariably the trainer, at some point, stops stimming the dog and that means to the dog, that he's found a way to make the discomfort stop. Inadvertently the trainer has taught the wrong behavior.


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

The e-collar is certainly not a magic wand. But, it is an extremely useful tool when you have even a basic understanding of how dogs learn. 

Dogs are interested in their own comfort & security. Communicating to them how they can obtain comfort (food, toys, free time, praise) & avoid harm (corrections, isolation etc) is what training is all about. Training isn’t about shoveling food into your dog’s mouth or pushing different buttons at different levels. Training is about communicating to your dog that it is to his benefit to obey you.

Clickers are good, but the very, very, very best way to communicate with even the youngest puppy or the most screwed-up dog is Kayce Cover’s Bridge & Target. You can find her manual & download it for a very reasonable price here: http://synalia.com/manuals-products/. To learn how to play with your dog & the meaning of “no” & release the best is Ivan Balabanov’s DVDs Obedience without Conflict http://www.caninetrainingsystems.com/cgi-bin/shopper.cgi?preadd=action&key=V-SCH-BAL-1. Dogs learn when something happens to them—either good or bad. If your dogs don’t understand what you want, they can’t obey you. 

Before starting e-collar training, I train at least a month with a hybrid of Kayce’s B&T & Ivan’s game. Then I use a pinch collar for long-line work—the dog pulls, he feels the pinch, he stops pulling. This teaches him that he can escape the pinch by modifying his behavior. Soon after beginning the escape phase, I add the command “walk” before he feels the pinch. This is the avoidance phase—he avoids the pinch by obeying my command. This is exactly what I do with the e-collar—the dog can escape the stimulation with certain behavior then avoid the stimulation by obeying commands. Avoiding the stimulation (correction) is safety which has the same effect as obtaining a reward.

Just as important as conditioning the collar—you need to break the association between stimulation & remote. Remember dogs learn when something good or bad happen to them—when they feel the stimulation, they will very quickly see the remote (the see blinking lights & hear the click) & realize that if you don’t have the remote, they don’t have to obey you. For at least a month, I have the remote with me whenever I’m around the dog. I use like a cell, a tv remote, I fiddle with the knobs, look at the read out, press the buttons. I look at it & make sure the dog sees it while I’m playing with him, feeding him, getting him out of his crate, putting him into his crate, during obedience, rewarding him, petting him, brushing him….. My dogs don’t have a clue. You want them to obey your command & view you as guiding them to safety by giving obedience commands. I keep the remote in my pocket, around my neck, out in my hand so the dog learns that the e-collar remote has no connection to anything that happens to him. Of course, especially in the beginning when the dog is very watchful to exactly what’s happening, you keep this up to disassociate the correction/collar/remote connection.

I use food, praise along with e-collar. The stimulation will cause stress, which is quickly relieved with the food & then praise. This dog is almost 7-months-old. She’s had 2 months of motivational training at her home. The video starts with her first day—she has been taught with the long line to come with the command “come on” so I am using it but will change it to “here” which means come to me & sit on the second day. In the first few recalls, she is escaping the stimulation. I am using level 10 continuous on a collar that goes up to 127. It is not painful but darn annoying—she really does not like it. I say the command & stimulate her at the same time—immediately, as soon as she turns to come to me I stop the stimulation & praise her. The praise lets her know what will turn off the stimulation. When she returns to me, she gets a treat which is also reinforcing & relieves stress. I let her relax & play for at least a few minutes to let what happened sink in. This is the escape phase.

In the avoidance stage, I’ll give the command & give her a chance to obey. If she doesn’t, I will use the same level 10 continuous level, repeat the command & immediately stop the stimulation when she turns to come to me. Also, immediately praise her to let her know she’s safe—treat at the end after releasing her. The release is important—this lets her know she’s free until further commands & lets her relax.

This little girl is going to be a family guardian. The breed (Black Russian Terrier) is intriguing. I would be interested to see what an dominant male would be like. Anyway, I’ve started e-collar training with my GSD puppy this week & he’s coming along great. What a difference a little e-collar training does. I’ll post video of him when I have a chance so you can compare the training. They’ve had almost the same exact preparation training. 

Here's the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMVUR9G2FT0


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## Maria Janota (Sep 24, 2009)

Lou Castle said:


> I'm sorry Maria, I'm not certain I understand your question. Can you give a concrete example of what you mean by _"regression?"_ Are you referring to a dog that's confused or one that's disobeying a command because he's distracted?


I`ll try to be more specific or less specific maybe... I was wondering since you make something that many people think of as a correction tool, as a guide, what if you have to mark not wanted behaviour that occures. I guess no matter what was the handlers mistake, because not every handler knows what exactly went wrong in first second, usually it takes some time to figure it out and the reaction to the behaviour performed by dog should be immidiate. But lets make it the dog is confused because of learning to many commands at a time. It could happend to me


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Al Curbow said:


> Geoff,
> The prongs aren't needed, you can use this instead, the dog can wear it comfortably all day http://www.mightypets.com/product.asp?3=1650


Interesting. Is that a Dogtra product Al? I heard that Dogtra was going to be marketing something like that called a diffuser or something like that. Is this it? Do you own this? If so how is it working out for you and your dogs?


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Maria Janota said:


> I was wondering since you make something that many people think of as a correction tool, as a guide, what if you have to mark not wanted behaviour that occures. I guess no matter what was the handlers mistake, because not every handler knows what exactly went wrong in first second, usually it takes some time to figure it out and the reaction to the behaviour performed by dog should be immidiate. But lets make it the dog is confused because of learning to many commands at a time. It could happend to me


Still not 100% sure what you're asking but I'll take a shot. The situation you propose is probably not going to happen if you follow my protocols because there are milestones that occur before you move on to a teaching new behavior. They ensure that the dog does not get confused because too many behaviors have been taught at a time. 

But let's say that your dog is off leash in the park and he's smelling all the new smells about 25 yards from you. You've been through the recall and the sit protocols. You tell him to sit but he does not. You press the button on your collar but he still does not sit. More than likely it's because you're setting is too low. That setting worked fine when he was learning and was still on leash or closer to you, but now he's distracted and he does not even feel it. So you bump the dial a few numbers (assuming you're using a Dogtra Ecollar with 127 levels) and repeat the command. At some point he'll feel the stim and will comply. 

If he does not, there's a problem with your use of the protocols. More than likely you've left out a step. I'd go back and repeat some of the basic work and then do some work at a distance. You really have to read the protocols to understand what you'll be doing and how it works. Have you read any of them? 

I've never had anyone tell me that they didn't work for them.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Geoff Empey said:


> Interesting. Is that a Dogtra product Al? I heard that Dogtra was going to be marketing something like that called a diffuser or something like that. Is this it? Do you own this? If so how is it working out for you and your dogs?


It's not made by Dogtra but they occasionally have them for sale. I have them as well. They're made by CJ Enterprises a company owned by one of those who was part of the original invention of the Ecollar. It's called the SCG (Surface Contact Grid). They fit any collar (including invisible fences) where the spacing between the contact points is 1 1/4". Because the pressure is spread out over a large area, rather than concentrated on the tip of the contact points they can be worn for much longer periods of time without fear of irritation or sores developing.


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## Mark Yatchak (Jan 26, 2009)

Lou Castle said:


> Great point. For a pet there's really not much trouble with a "Velcro dog." I had one client, a very elderly man who had been jerked off his feet and severely injured by his dog who was trying to chase a cat. He WANTED a Velcro dog. At home the dog is completely a normal dog, but when he puts on the leash and Ecollar the dog won't leave his side.
> 
> But as you say, it's a serious issue with some dogs. The police and SAR dogs must range away from their handlers sometimes to hundreds of yards.
> 
> ...


Lou,

I have a 15 month old GSD and participate in Schutzhund and may get involved with SAR work in the future. 

I did buy a Dogtra collar from you but have not used it for training yet. I have found my pups working level and do put the collar on him occasionally to get him acclimated to it. I'm still trying to learn all that I can before moving forward. I have read the protocol for the differences in training the recall using your standard method of training vs the Police/SAR training method on your site. 

The Police/Sar method appears to put emphasis (if I understand correctly) on being sure to continue to mix other commands during training while not really concentrating solely on the recall as to prevent a "velcro dog". 

Since Schutzhund training does require the dog to range away from you when tracking, doing blind searches etc... do you recommend using the Police/Sar training method with Schutzhubd trained dogs, or is the distance used during Schutzhund work not all that relevant?

It appears it is best to work one command (non Sar method) and proof it until you get the desired results before moving on. 

If that is the case, how does one work the Police/Sar recall if this method requires training various exercises as to not have a velcro dog? Do you still work/train/proof one exercise at a time before introducing another exercise? In essence, should you still train and proof the recall, then introduce and proof say... the "platz" but continue working on the recall during each platz training session, then train and proof the "sitz" while still proofing the recall and platz while learning the sitz - etc? 

Lastly, since I may decide to one day participate with SAR work, would it be best to just go ahead with the Police/Sar method now as to not create conflict in the future - even if you feel the Sar training method is not really required for SchuH training?

Thanks Lou,

Mark


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Some additions her to my first answer (yes, I DID answer ) to the topic starter’s question. It took some time but well, I spend a lot of time training my dogs (a lot more then spending time on the internet talking about it).

There are many methods using the ecollar, but we prefer to use a positive method over a method based on avoidance of (even minor) discomfort.
I want the dog to know what it is about, before I start using the collar. This method maybe needs more training experience from the handler (has to teach the exercise first) but this can be done in a positive way for the dog.

Training starts when the dog is a pup (we start at 6 weeks of age).
2 golden rules: never too much and always in a “play like” way, using a lot of rewards.
Like that the pup doesn’t get bored and will always be motivated and happy.

You’d be surprised how many exercises can be taught like that in a few weeks of time, without the pup even being aware that he’s actually “working”, because to him it is only a game that he likes very much.
Like that we teach the positions (sit, down, stand), we teach him to heel and to stay when we say so, we teach him the retrieve and the initial bite work.

At this age, it is very easy to have the pup concentrate on you (you’re the center of his universe) and he’ll be learning very fast. 
By the time he evolves to the stage of adolescence (4-5 months of age) and gets influenced by other distractions, he’ll already know the exercises and he’ll be ready for the ecollar.

Our pups wear the collar from 3 months of age (we have a small dummy collar) to prepare them to the collar training. 
All our dogs ALWAYS wear the collar when we take them out for a walk or when they train. They don’t know better then that there is no other option but to obey.

Major use of the ecollar is as a means of interaction with the dog. We tell him to do something and if he doesn’t respond he’ll get a small impulse (like telling him “hey there, I’m talking to you". Because he knows the exercise, this will be enough, he’ll do it and immediately gets his reward.

An example where we do use the avoiding of discomfort method, is when doing the positions. Then the dog wears a belly collar and he’ll get a small impulse if he doesn’t respond to the command “stand”. 
Of course, at this stage he knows perfectly what “stand” means. He’ll avoid the discomfort at his belly and will stand up and then he immediately gets his reward. 
 When we do the positions from a distance with a young dog, there will always be 2 long leashes. The handler is holding one attached to the dog’s neck and another person is holding one attached to the dog’s belly. Like that there is no other option for the dog but to stay where he is.

Another example where the avoidance method is used, is for a dog that keeps dropping his object when retrieving. He’ll get a small impulse when he drops it and as soon as he picks it up again, the stimulation stops.
Also a dog that refuses to retrieve, can be taught a forced retrieve with the avoidance method. If you ever attended a Bart Bellon seminar (Bart & my husband have been training together for years), you certainly have seen him demonstrate this.

There are so many aspects of ecollar training. It is impossible to share this via posting on a board, because it has been achieved by many years of training experience.
Attending a seminar from a good trainer will help but still it is impossible to share everything, even in 10 seminars.
People like Waleed Maalouf, who is a good friend, came over to Belgium many times to train together and share experiences.

My advice is to OBSERVE good trainers and try to form an objective point of view of your own. Judge the methods and think them over BEFORE using them. What type of dog is YOUR dog and will it work for HIM. After all it’s YOU who knows him the best, he trusts YOU and you shouldn’t let him down.

Good luck!


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Mark Yatchak said:


> I did buy a Dogtra collar from you but have not used it for training yet. I have found my pups working level and do put the collar on him occasionally to get him acclimated to it. I'm still trying to learn all that I can before moving forward. I have read the protocol for the differences in training the recall using your standard method of training vs the Police/SAR training method on your site.
> 
> The Police/Sar method appears to put emphasis (if I understand correctly) on being sure to continue to mix other commands during training while not really concentrating solely on the recall as to prevent a "velcro dog".


Mark the article that you're talking about is HERE.  I've just updated it to make it more readable and added some information that answers your questions. (I've answered them here too). This article is aimed at those who need for their dog to range away from them and particularly those who do difficult scent work. That includes police and SAR dogs as well as those who compete in virtually any sport, including OB. The difference between training pets and search or sport dogs is not really a _difference in method _as much as it is the application of the method. It's just a small change in the order that things are done. 

Many people come to the Ecollar only after other methods have failed to give them satisfactory results. Often that failure is in the recall, the topic of this discussion. Pet owners who do not have a recall will find that training with the Ecollar quickly gives them one. Since they've had issues; possibly losing their dog during a chase, having the dog run into traffic or embarrassing them in front of others by having them chase the dog around, they may "hammer" the recall training so that these things don't happen to them again. They may use the Ecollar ONLY for the recall or they may work on it to the near–exclusion of the sit, down, place, etc. 

This can result in two things that can harm sport or search work. They can put the dog out of balance and/or focus his attention on the handler to too great an extent. 



Mark Yatchak said:


> Since Schutzhund training does require the dog to range away from you when tracking, doing blind searches etc... do you recommend using the Police/Sar training method with Schutzhubd trained dogs, or is the distance used during Schutzhund work not all that relevant?


Again, remember that the difference is not really "one of method," but of using balance in the work and in using the lowest level of stim that the dog can feel. 



Mark Yatchak said:


> It appears it is best to work one command (non Sar method) and proof it until you get the desired results before moving on.


That will give the best reliability but may affect the balance. 



Mark Yatchak said:


> If that is the case, how does one work the Police/Sar recall if this method requires training various exercises as to not have a velcro dog? Do you still work/train/proof one exercise at a time before introducing another exercise?


Maintaining focus is fairly easy. Keep the level of stim where the dog first feels it during the training and the work. Concentrate on working OB away from the search work. Do that OB training separate from the searching. Keep your OB commands to a minimum while searching and only use the collar if necessary to enforce a command if the dog does not obey it. Don't demand precision OB, especially during a search. 

Maintaining balance is a little harder. To achieve maximum reliability in the early phases of the OB work it's best to train one behavior at a time, proof that behavior with many distractions (and the hierarchy of toys) and then test it in many environments before moving on to teaching another behavior. But doing this may affect the balance. 

For search and sport dogs I suggest teaching the new behavior, NOT proofing it and NOT working it in a variety of environments. Rather teach the recall, and as soon as you get the first signs of "Velcro dog" move on to teaching the sit. DO NOT proof it and DO NOT work on it in many different environments at first.



Mark Yatchak said:


> Lastly, since I may decide to one day participate with SAR work, would it be best to just go ahead with the Police/Sar method now as to not create conflict in the future - even if you feel the Sar training method is not really required for SchuH training?


I think so. You're doing sport work and you still need the dog focused on scent work and balanced.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Martine Loots said:


> Some additions her to my first answer (yes, I DID answer ) to the topic starter’s question. *It took some time *but well, I spend a lot of time training my dogs (a lot more then spending time on the internet talking about it). [Emphasis added]


Had you answered right away, it would not have taken as much time and you could have been out training your dogs. Lol. 



Martine Loots said:


> There are many methods using the ecollar, but we prefer to use a positive method over a method based on avoidance of (even minor) discomfort.


The so-called "kinder, gentler methods" (and that's not meant as a dig) involve _"discomfort"_ and punishment. Many people deny it but it's there. It's just not as obvious as when an Ecollar is in use. 

Many people come to the Ecollar only after other methods have failed to give them satisfactory results. Having them start using the so-called "kinder, gentler methods" (and that's not meant as a dig) (which they're probably already tried and found wanting) seems to me to be a waste of time. If you've got a puppy those methods work well but if you have an older dog that's already had problems, especially with the recall, not so much. 



Martine Loots said:


> This method maybe needs more training experience from the handler (has to teach the exercise first) but this can be done in a positive way for the dog.


People who already have an issue with a poor recall don't have the time that it takes for them to get _"more training experience."_ While they're learning, the dog is still not recalling. And many people will NEVER get that much experience. 



Martine Loots said:


> Training starts when the dog is a pup (we start at 6 weeks of age).


Yep, exactly as I've said. When you start with a puppy, you're much more likely to have success. But many people don't start with puppies, meaning that their chances of success are less. I've found that many people who start this work with puppies have a very different idea of how successful it is v. people who start with adult dogs, especially if those adults already have issues. 



Martine Loots said:


> By the time he evolves to the stage of adolescence *(4-5 months of age) *and gets influenced by other distractions, he’ll already know the exercises and he’ll be ready for the ecollar. [Emphasis added]


Every Ecollar manufacturer recommends that the Ecollar not be used until the dog is at least six months of age. I agree with them. 



Martine Loots said:


> Major use of the ecollar is as a means of interaction with the dog. We tell him to do something and if he doesn’t respond he’ll get a small impulse (like telling him “hey there, I’m talking to you". Because he knows the exercise, this will be enough, he’ll do it and immediately gets his reward.


The problem with using the Ecollar ONLY as a punishment tool, as you've just described, is that it limits the amount of communication that can be done with it. There's *less * information in an Ecollar correction (done your way) than in a leash correction. The leash correction has a direction to it. It pulls the dog's head in the direction he's supposed to go AND applies some discomfort. For a dog that's heeling too wide, the leash correction is straight across the knees and to the right (for dogs that heel on the left). For a dog that does not sit when commanded, the correction is straight up. Both corrections give information to the dog as to the direction that he's suppose to go. But there's no such directionality with the Ecollar. There's only the discomfort. 

I prefer teaching with the Ecollar so that the dog understand TWO phases of it. The first is that when the stim starts, he's doing the wrong thing. The second is that when it stops, he's done the right thing.


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## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

Hey Martine, as far as proofing a recall specifically, what would the timing be like? What kind of a sequence would it be, if that make sence. Say for instance in a formal ob recall with the dog downed and you facing him. Or would it even be done at that point?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Steve Strom said:


> Hey Martine, as far as proofing a recall specifically, what would the timing be like? What kind of a sequence would it be, if that make sence. Say for instance in a formal ob recall with the dog downed and you facing him. Or would it even be done at that point?


Drop on recall in the AKC Open class obedience. 
Call the dog, drop him, call again!


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## Mark Yatchak (Jan 26, 2009)

Lou Castle said:


> Mark the article that you're talking about is HERE.  I've just updated it to make it more readable and added some information that answers your questions. (I've answered them here too).


Fantastic \\/ Much appreciated Lou, Thank you!

Mark


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Lou Castle said:


> Had you answered right away, it would not have taken as much time and you could have been out training your dogs. Lol.


Here we go again…. It almost looks like I’m not the one having to speak and understand a foreign language….:lol:

Let’s say it like this. Preaching theories on the internet isn’t exactly one of my priorities, so training is what I did yes. 
Lots of literal terminology to impress people isn’t either. Results and achievements matter and this we achieve on the field and by exchanging experiences in every day language.




Lou Castle said:


> Many people come to the Ecollar only after other methods have failed to give them satisfactory results. Having them start using the so-called "kinder, gentler methods" (and that's not meant as a dig) (which they're probably already tried and found wanting) seems to me to be a waste of time. If you've got a puppy those methods work well but if you have an older dog that's already had problems, especially with the recall, not so much.


True, but then they should learn to train a dog first, before turning to an ecollar. If they don’t want to invest in getting insight in a dog’s mind, then IMO they aren’t worth to go on with training.




Lou Castle said:


> Yep, exactly as I've said. When you start with a puppy, you're much more likely to have success. But many people don't start with puppies, meaning that their chances of success are less. I've found that many people who start this work with puppies have a very different idea of how successful it is v. people who start with adult dogs, especially if those adults already have issues.


When my husband bought A’Tim, the dog was 18 months, his former owner was scared to death of him and the only thing the dog knew was being the boss and dominate everyone who crossed his path.

He has been trained with our method and became multiple champion.
I agree that, depending on the dog’s character, it’s not always possible to work only positive. This was the fact with Tim too. 
Sometimes it’s inevitable to punish, but then again the dog should know WHY, so you’ll have to teach him the exercise first.

I’d even say that causing discomfort, to an adult dog with a strong character, without him knowing why, can be very dangerous. He’ll see this as a provocation and very possible the handler will end up in hospital.




Lou Castle said:


> Every Ecollar manufacturer recommends that the Ecollar not be used until the dog is at least six months of age. I agree with them.


I don’t and many good ecollar trainers share my opinion. This depends on the type of dog of course and it also requires a handler who knows how to use the collar correctly. It’s clear that with a pup of that age you have to know what you’re doing.

Also, since you say you "teach" an exercise with the collar and you don't make him wear a collar until he's at least 6 months, does this mean you don't do anything with a pup before that age?
Does this mean he can be a wild one and do as he likes? I suppose (hope) not.





Lou Castle said:


> The problem with using the Ecollar ONLY as a punishment tool, as you've just described, is that it limits the amount of communication that can be done with it.


I thought I said we mainly use the collar as a means of interaction:?::?:
But maybe my English wasn’t good enough again…




Lou Castle said:


> There's *less *information in an Ecollar correction (done your way) than in a leash correction. The leash correction has a direction to it. It pulls the dog's head in the direction he's supposed to go AND applies some discomfort. For a dog that's heeling too wide, the leash correction is straight across the knees and to the right (for dogs that heel on the left). For a dog that does not sit when commanded, the correction is straight up. Both corrections give information to the dog as to the direction that he's suppose to go. But there's no such directionality with the Ecollar. There's only the discomfort.


Who was talking about leash corrections? #-o
To teach a dog to heel correctly, there is the positive way, like the ball or a treat you can use to make him do it.
Why pull the leash when a dog doesn’t sit when commanded, when it’s so easy to make him do it with a treat or a toy? 




Lou Castle said:


> I prefer teaching with the Ecollar so that the dog understand TWO phases of it. The first is that when the stim starts, he's doing the wrong thing. The second is that when it stops, he's done the right thing.


Yes, you clearly want quick results. 
I wanna see you doing this with a real strong, handler aggressive dog with a clear “don’t mess with me” attitude.
If you do the recall the way you describe it, he’ll be coming very fast ok but… :-\"


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Steve Strom said:


> Hey Martine, as far as proofing a recall specifically, what would the timing be like? What kind of a sequence would it be, if that make sence. Say for instance in a formal ob recall with the dog downed and you facing him. Or would it even be done at that point?


Don't really understand what you mean.
Do you mean the time between the command and the stimulation?

I give the command and if he doesn't respond within let's say 2sec, he'll get a stimulation. I don't repeat the command because he very well knows what I was saying. 
Then when he obeys, I'll confirm that with "good boy, this is.... (I repeat the command)" and he gets his treat.


----------



## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Lou Castle said:


> The problem with using the Ecollar ONLY as a punishment tool, as you've just described, is that it limits the amount of communication that can be done with it. There's *less *information in an Ecollar correction (done your way) than in a leash correction. The leash correction has a direction to it. It pulls the dog's head in the direction he's supposed to go AND applies some discomfort. For a dog that's heeling too wide, the leash correction is straight across the knees and to the right (for dogs that heel on the left). For a dog that does not sit when commanded, the correction is straight up. Both corrections give information to the dog as to the direction that he's suppose to go. But there's no such directionality with the Ecollar. There's only the discomfort.
> 
> *This does not have to be true. Bart bellon teaches the dog to move away from the electrical stim in order to avoid it. That's not a problem with the equipment, that's simply lack of direction of the trainer to the dog on how to avoid the stim.*
> 
> ...


That's not some magical training theory and in fact it does not make much sense. That's what everyone does with the collar...if you say sit and the dog downs, and you hit the button till the dog sits. How's that different from what everyone esle is doing?

And I am not sure there are 2 phases. There is either punishment, or negative reiforcement. If you are introducing the stim in an effort to increase the behavior that's negative reiforcement. If your introducing the stim in order to decrease the likely hood of the behavior that's punishment? So what are you doing. Trying to extinguish a behavior or create one?....I think your trying to teach with the E-collar.

but just holding the button for a wrong response till you get the right response seems like it would cause the dog to panic, and guess till hits the right behavior. Because I am going to assume if you have a electric collar on the dogs neck that dog knows your not afraid to use. He is going to be trying to get it right. But if you ask for one thing and the dog does another....maybe the dog does not know what's expected? That would be my guess.

And were dealing with high drive dogs....dogs who want thier toys. like a crack head wants his rock. I am having a hard time wrapping my head around on how this E-collar theory would work better than just withholding a reward...negative punishment. If my dog did something wrong, I would just hold back the reward till they got it right. And keep making them do again and again. And they I do not care if they get thier toy...but they do. They may guess and try different things...but now the dog does not fear making a mistake I just do not think people have the paitience for this. Or they live in the wonderland where thier dog is immune to the laws of learning because of thier drives. What I think happens is the dog learns it's just helpless against the crazy man with the remote. They try something, cause thier not quite sure what's being asked. OR they simply made a mistake. So Joe trainer shocks em'. this happens repeatly over the dogs life. Soon the dog figures, they do not really know what to do. they kinda do, but not totally. So they just go to old stand by behavior in that situiation, take the shock, and try behavior number 2. and this becomes the pattern...week in and week out. So the handler tries for a few sessions to get the dog to work for a toy again, but the dog is so concerned, and it's hard to see in a strong dog, but it shows up as a dog that keeps doing the same thing...with the collar shocking and his skin jumping but the dog just keeps doing what he is doing....because it's hopeless for him. He starts to believe that the shock is unavoidable. What a life for the dog.

I think the best thing to do with a shock collar is throw it in the trash. I did, best thing I ever did. And I too thought I was doing it the right way. There is no right way to electracute a dog.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

are you being serious? Or just describing your personal experience with an eCollar?






James Downey said:


> That's not some magical training theory and in fact it does not make much sense. That's what everyone does with the collar...if you say sit and the dog downs, and you hit the button till the dog sits. How's that different from what everyone esle is doing?
> 
> And I am not sure there are 2 phases. There is either punishment, or negative reiforcement. If you are introducing the stim in an effort to increase the behavior that's negative reiforcement. If your introducing the stim in order to decrease the likely hood of the behavior that's punishment? So what are you doing. Trying to extinguish a behavior or create one?....I think your trying to teach with the E-collar.
> 
> ...


----------



## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

Martine Loots said:


> Don't really understand what you mean.
> Do you mean the time between the command and the stimulation?
> 
> I give the command and if he doesn't respond within let's say 2sec, he'll get a stimulation. I don't repeat the command because he very well knows what I was saying.
> Then when he obeys, I'll confirm that with "good boy, this is.... (I repeat the command)" and he gets his treat.


Sorry bout that, I was rushing around a little bit and didnt really ask that very clearly. What I'm wondering really has to do more speed.Other then the safe zones, is there a way with the collar to go beyond just him wanting to come in fast to knowing he has to?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

*Re: Theory and Practice / Talking and Walking*

HI Martine

THANK YOU, for taking the time to respond.
This is the BIG problem with Internet Training. We spend nine pages "debating" and "nitpicking" minor little details,
instead of training dogs. Someone (like yourself) who actually
succeeds at dog training offers some insight, on what works and it gets lost in rambling nonsense :-(

I got to attend a seminar with Waleed Maalouf in Denver a couple of years age with a collection of sport trainers and some people from Pit Bull rescue and humane societies.
Wally is a great teacher/trainer. You're lucky to get to work with him







Martine Loots said:


> Here we go again…. It almost looks like I’m not the one having to speak and understand a foreign language….:lol:
> 
> Let’s say it like this. Preaching theories on the internet isn’t exactly one of my priorities, so training is what I did yes.
> Lots of literal terminology to impress people isn’t either. Results and achievements matter and this we achieve on the field and by exchanging experiences in every day language.
> ...


----------



## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Drop on recall in the AKC Open class obedience.
> Call the dog, drop him, call again!


Hey Bob, would you use a little more then his "working level" to drop him? Does it take much to get him up again?


----------



## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Martine Loots said:


> Here we go again…. Let’s say it like this. Preaching theories on the internet isn’t exactly one of my priorities, so training is what I did yes.


Answering a simple question isn't _"preaching [your] theories on the internet."_ Although you seem to be having no problem in doing so now. 



Martine Loots said:


> Lots of literal terminology to impress people isn’t either.


You seem to favor name dropping. 



Martine Loots said:


> Results and achievements matter and this we achieve on the field and by exchanging experiences in every day language.


I've achieved results and achievements on the street for over 30 years with police dogs. Sometimes _"every day language"_ is best, as with dealing with pet owners. But sometimes the jargon and language used by dog trainers is appropriate. 

Earlier I wrote,


> Many people come to the Ecollar only after other methods have failed to give them satisfactory results. Having them start using the so-called "kinder, gentler methods" (and that's not meant as a dig) (which they're probably already tried and found wanting) seems to me to be a waste of time. …





Martine Loots said:


> True, but then they should learn to train a dog first, before turning to an ecollar. If they don’t want to invest in getting insight in a dog’s mind, then IMO they aren’t worth to go on with training.


Thanks for telling us what YOU think every dog owner _"should"_ do before training their dog. Learning to use and then using an Ecollar IS _"learn[ing] to train a dog."_ It's not necessary that they FIRST use your methods and THEN learn to use an Ecollar. Few people will go to the bother and they don't need to. 



Martine Loots said:


> I agree that, depending on the dog’s character, *it’s not always possible to work only positive. * [Emphasis added]


Yes, I know. Many who favor those methods will not admit this. 



Martine Loots said:


> Sometimes it’s inevitable to punish, *but then again the dog should know WHY, * so you’ll have to teach him the exercise first. [Emphasis added]


I disagree. I apply and then remove minor discomfort and the dogs learn just fine. With my method it's NOT necessary to teach the dog the exercise first. It's just a difference of opinion as to what's best. 



Martine Loots said:


> I’d even say that causing discomfort, to an adult dog with a strong character, without him knowing why, can be very dangerous. He’ll see this as a provocation and very possible the handler will end up in hospital.


This is true when methods that use discomfort other than with my methods are used. But since my methods have the dog learning that the stim comes from his actions, aggression is not directed towards the handler. And since I'm working at the level where the dog first perceives the stim, the response is not one of aggression, but instead of flicking an ear or scratching as if bitten by a single flea. 

Earlier I wrote,


> Every Ecollar manufacturer recommends that the Ecollar not be used until the dog is at least six months of age. I agree with them.





Martine Loots said:


> I don’t and many good ecollar trainers share my opinion.


And many disagree. Yasee this is nothing but another difference of opinion. You think that makes you right and I know that it just shows that you have a differing view. 



Martine Loots said:


> This depends on the type of dog of course and it also requires a handler who knows how to use the collar correctly. It’s clear that with a pup of that age you have to know what you’re doing.


Yes I know. I've gone as young as 10 weeks and had complete success. 



Martine Loots said:


> Also, since you say you "teach" an exercise with the collar and you don't make him wear a collar until he's at least 6 months, does this mean you don't do anything with a pup before that age?


Thinking this would be jumping to an illogical conclusion. 

Earlier I wrote,


> The problem with using the Ecollar ONLY as a punishment tool, as you've just described, is that it limits the amount of communication that can be done with it.





Martine Loots said:


> I thought I said we mainly use the collar as a means of interaction:
> But maybe my English wasn’t good enough again…


Your English is just fine; far better than my command of any other language. EVERY single time you've talked about the Ecollar it's been as you use it for punishment. That's a form of interaction but it's only one way that an Ecollar can be used to communicate. I prefer to use that AND other ways. You do not. At least not as far as this conversation has shown. 

Earlier I wrote,


> The problem with using the Ecollar ONLY as a punishment tool, as you've just described, is that it limits the amount of communication that can be done with it.  There's *less * information in an Ecollar correction (done your way) than in a leash correction … [Red emphasis added]





Martine Loots said:


> Who was talking about leash corrections?


Conveniently, when you quoted me, you left out the part of what I wrote (highlighted in red above) showing why I brought up the topic of _"leash corrections."_ It was to show the limit of using only discomfort with the Ecollar for punishment as you've told us you do. I use it to show the dog when he's right AND when he's wrong. You only use it to show when he's wrong … giving LESS communication with the dog. 

Earlier I wrote,


> I prefer teaching with the Ecollar so that the dog understand TWO phases of it. The first is that when the stim starts, he's doing the wrong thing. The second is that when it stops, he's done the right thing.





Martine Loots said:


> Yes, you clearly want quick results.


Yep. All other things being equal (and they are) quicker is better than slower. Do you think that there's something better when training takes LONGER than necessary? 



Martine Loots said:


> I wanna see you doing this with a real strong, handler aggressive dog with a clear “don’t mess with me” attitude.
> If you do the recall the way you describe it, he’ll be coming very fast ok but… :-\"


ROFL. Always a treat when people try to guess about something they know nothing about. In this case it's predicting what will happen with something they've only read about and never seen. 

I've been training _"strong handler aggressive dog with a clear 'don't mess with me' attitude"_ for decades. I've NEVER gotten a handler bitten by his own dog during training. Wondering, can you make the same statement? 

Because dogs don't associate the discomfort of an Estim with the handler with my methods there's no conflict as there is with many other methods. And that INCLUDES the so-called "kinder, gentler" ones that you've mentioned where a treat or a toy is used. I've seen the kind of dog you describe bite handlers who withhold those rewards. 

I've also used the Ecollar on highly fearful dogs with much success. HERE'S one such success story. This dog was so fearful that virtually any change in her environment brought on fight or flight. When I started working her, I thought for sure that I was going to get bitten. Instead, about 25 minutes later she climbed into my lap and was licking my face. 

HERES a story of another such dog (not quite as reactionary though) who was fear aggressive who was saved by using my methods with the Ecollar. Interestingly that work was done by someone who had never before used an Ecollar for training. Simon came into his shelter on Monday and was due to be PTS on Friday. The trainer phoned me Monday night and I talked him thorugh teaching the recall. (I did not have my website put up yet). He worked with the dog on Tuesday and then on Tuesday night I talked him through teaching the sit. He worked with the dog on Wednesday and showed his progress to the shelter director who gave the dog a reprieve. The dog was subsequently adopted out and now, years later, has had no aggression issues. I don't think the "slower is better" attitude would have worked in this situation.


----------



## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Earlier I wrote,


> The problem with using the Ecollar ONLY as a punishment tool, as you've just described, is that it limits the amount of communication that can be done with it. There's *less *information in an Ecollar correction (done your way) than in a leash correction. The leash correction has a direction to it. … But there's no such directionality with the Ecollar. There's only the discomfort.





James Downey said:


> … Bart bellon teaches the dog to move away from the electrical stim in order to avoid it …


Mr. Bellon does this _ sometimes_ as do I. It's called _ point of contact training _and it takes advantage of any animal's desire to try and move away from something uncomfortable. But by no means does it pervade his training. It's only used occasionally. Going back to my statement about the directionality of leash corrections, virtually EVERY properly delivered leash correction contains this information. It's rarely done when the Ecollar is used. With most Ecollar use, _"There's only the discomfort."_

For the most part Mr. Bellon does, as do most trainers who use the Ecollar, put it on the dog's neck and leave it where it comes to rest, usually near the part of the neck nearest the ground, usually off to one side of the dog's esophagus. Occasionally we'll move the "box" to the top of the dog's neck to help with the down. Occasionally we'll put the "box" on his abdomen or back to assist with the stand or the down. But those things are done only rarely and once the teaching is done, it's almost never done again. Leash corrections continue to have directionality whenever they're used.



James Downey said:


> That's what *everyone does *with the collar...[referring to point of contact training] [Emphasis added]


Actually relatively few Ecollar users do it.



James Downey said:


> if you say sit and the dog downs, and you hit the button till the dog sits. How's that different from what everyone esle is doing?


This is not what I do. I have no idea where you get this idea. I'd guess that you've not read my protocols and are instead guessing how I use the Ecollar. Perhaps this is how you used an Ecollar and you're projecting what you did onto others. 



James Downey said:


> And I am not sure there are 2 phases. There is either *punishment, or negative reiforcement.*[Emphasis added]


In the first part of your sentence you say that you're _"not sure there are 2 phases …"_ and then you describe the _ "2 phases."_ And BTW (since you're using the terms of OC [Operant Conditioning]) the correct term for the punishment that the Ecollar delivers is _Positive punishment. (+P)_ not just _"punishment."_ 



James Downey said:


> If you are introducing the stim in an effort to increase the behavior that's negative reiforcement.


No I'm sorry but this is Positive Punishment +P, NOT negative reinforcement (–R)._"Introducing"_ something into the situation is, in the terms of OC "Positive." It's true that –R will tend to increase a behavior.



James Downey said:


> If your introducing the stim in order to decrease the likely hood of the behavior that's punishment?


I’m sorry again but this is Positive Punishment (+P) not just _"punishment."_ Punishment can also be removed as in Negative Punishment (–P).



James Downey said:


> So what are you doing. Trying to extinguish a behavior or create one?....I think your trying to teach with the E-collar.


BOTH! I want the behavior of being away from the handler to stop and the behavior of moving towards the handler to start. I use +P at the start to get the dog to understand that what he's doing, being away from the handler is wrong and use –R to get the dog to understand that by moving towards the handler, that he's doing something right.

I don't like to get into conversations of OC because it often confuses people. But since it's started, we can see that you're not using the terms properly.



James Downey said:


> but just holding the button for a wrong response till you get the right response seems like it would cause the dog to panic, and guess till hits the right behavior.


Sounds as if you've not read either my previous posts or my protocols, so you have this completely wrong. I don't _"just hold the button … till [ I ] get the right response …"_ Both here and in my protocols I've said that the dog is guided into the desired behavior. and so you're supposition that _"it would cause the dog to panic"_ is wrong.



James Downey said:


> Because I am going to assume if you have a electric collar on the dogs neck that dog knows your not afraid to use. He is going to be trying to get it right. But if you ask for one thing and the dog does another....maybe the dog does not know what's expected? That would be my guess.


Since the dog is not allowed to guess as to what I want, there's no chance that he can _"do another"_ behavior.



James Downey said:


> I am having a hard time wrapping my head around on how this E-collar theory would work better than just withholding a reward...negative punishment.


For several reasons. One is that with my method the dog is guided into the right behavior. Another is that it uses TWO sides of OC, not just one. Have the handler add in some praise or some other form of Positive Reinforcement (+R) and you have even more opportunities for the dog to learn. And there's no reason that Negative Punishment (–P) can't be combined with the Ecollar work. I don't talk about it in my protocols because it's more than the average pet owner (whatever that means) can handle.



James Downey said:


> If my dog did something wrong, I would just hold back the reward till they got it right.


I prefer to guide the dog into the desired behavior when teaching. I don't have the time to stand around waiting for a dog to guess what I want. Life is too short. Lol.



James Downey said:


> And they I do not care if they get thier toy...but they do. They may guess and try different things...but now the dog does not fear making a mistake


Dogs trained with my method using the level of stim that they can first feel, do not _"fear making a mistake."_ This sometimes occurs when high levels of stim are used. It's another reason that I avoid using it.



James Downey said:


> I just do not think people have the paitience for this.


I think you mean the patience to use the methods that you're describing. I'm not sure that it's a matter of patience. I know that it isn't for me. Dogs have a relatively short life span. I don't want to spend weeks of that life doing something that I can get the same (or better) results with in a much shorter time. I don't think that "slower is necessarily better." 



James Downey said:


> Or they live in the wonderland where thier dog is immune to the laws of learning because of thier drives.


I don't think there is such a _"wonderland."_I think it's easier to train a driven dog than to train one that's not driven.



James Downey said:


> What I think happens is the dog learns it's just helpless against the crazy man with the remote. They try something, cause thier not quite sure what's being asked. OR they simply made a mistake. So Joe trainer shocks em'. this happens repeatly over the dogs life. Soon the dog figures, they do not really know what to do. they kinda do, but not totally. So they just go to old stand by behavior in that situiation, take the shock, and try behavior number 2. and this becomes the pattern...week in and week out. So the handler tries for a few sessions to get the dog to work for a toy again, but the dog is so concerned, and it's hard to see in a strong dog, but it shows up as a dog that keeps doing the same thing...with the collar shocking and his skin jumping but the dog just keeps doing what he is doing....because it's hopeless for him. He starts to believe that the shock is unavoidable. What a life for the dog.


I'm sure that there are trainers who do this. I’m not one of them and my protocols don't have owners doing this. But this is not something that's inherent with the Ecollar. It's a sad situation cause by ignorance no matter what tool/method is in use.



James Downey said:


> I think the best thing to do with a shock collar is throw it in the trash. I did, best thing I ever did.


I'd bet the farm that you were not using the Ecollar per my methods. In fact I'd bet that you had little training from someone who knew what they were doing with it.



James Downey said:


> And I too thought I was doing it the right way.


Based on your comments, I'd disagree. Wondering … how do you know that you're using the methods you NOW use _"the right way?"_ Have you read books? Have you taken classes? Have you sought instruction from an "expert?" Also wondering … did you do those same things when you tried the Ecollar? 



James Downey said:


> There is no right way to electracute a dog.


Always a joy when someone makes this absurd statement. "Electrocution" means _to kill with electricity._ No Ecollar, ever made, has enough power to do this. But it makes for such nice (but highly misleading and emotional) rhetoric! ROFL.


----------



## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Thomas Barriano said:


> THANK YOU, for taking the time to respond.
> This is the BIG problem with Internet Training. We spend nine pages "debating" and "nitpicking" minor little details,


Yes, sometimes these discussion get caught up in _"minor little details."_ but as anyone with experience and success in dog training knows, "The devil is in the details." 

And to characterize the entire _"nine pages"_ like this is to overlook the fact that quite a bit of training information is being shared. Quite a few times people have thanks others for answering their questions. Heck YOU just did it! lol



Thomas Barriano said:


> instead of training dogs. Someone (like yourself) who actually
> succeeds at dog training offers some insight, on what works and it gets lost in rambling nonsense :-(


Sometimes there is rambling nonsense. And sometimes there is good information. * When people rant about the discussion, instead of answering sound questions asked by people looking for information, *it's especially _"rambling nonsense." _ I LOVE the way that some characterize _"insight"_ ONLY when it comes from people that they agree with. The reality is that insight can came from many sources, even people that are disagreed with. But in order for that to happen, one must have an open mind! 

I rarely learn much from people that I agree with. It's only when disagreement occurs that I hear about new and different viewpoints. But some would prefer it that others, those with whom they disagree or don't care for personally, didn't have a voice.


----------



## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

You got me on some of those points... Some you did not. But it's exhausting trying to retort the way you chop a post up into 36 different arguments. I have a small attention span and little ambition to argue like that.

but my first postwas fueled by the fact your arguing with someone that lived with and helped trained one of the greatest Malinois of all time. ... I would say that Martine maybe somewhat of an expert. I was a little taken back. That someone with that may posses that type of knowledge is being challeged....condosended upon. so.... 

I also just have to know...I do not have any high level competetions to my credit, So right there. Take what I say with a grain of salt. I just have my limited experience to go off of.

With acknowledging those 2 things. And Lou I mean no disrespect. But I do feel if your going fight this admently about all this. I would like to know if we should just take your word for it because your name is Lou....or should the name Lou mean anything to us. 

Because really the proof is in the competetion. Not in the theory.


----------



## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

James Downey said:


> You got me on some of those points... Some you did not.


James you used a number of terms improperly. I just pointed it out. It's not a matter of _"getting you"_ it's a matter of confusing some reader who may not know the correct definitions of the terms. 

You also made numerous assumptions about how I use the Ecollar. I'd guess that they're based on your own (by your description) lack of success with the tool. I noticed that you didn't answer a number of questions that I asked. 

And you ended with one of the most ludicrous statements ever made about the Ecollar! 



James Downey said:


> But it's exhausting trying to retort the way you chop a post up into 36 different arguments. I have a small attention span and little ambition to argue like that.


I find it gives the opportunity to respond to each one of your thoughts. You took the time to write them down. The least I can do is consider each one of them. If I was to respond to your post in paragraph form without quoting your comments, you and the rest of the readers would probably not know specifically what I was referring to. I could have, for example, made the general statement that you "were not using the OC terms properly." But then someone who was not familiar with them would not know which ones I was referring to and they'd not have the opportunity to learn the correct definitions. You made some very common errors there. 



James Downey said:


> but my first postwas fueled by the fact your arguing with someone that lived with and helped trained one of the greatest Malinois of all time.


Do you think that means that she knows all there is to know about dog training? Do you think that means that she knows all there is to know about Ecollars? Do you think that she's infallible? Do you think that her experience covers every possible contingency that exists? Do you blindly accept _every pearl of wisdom_ that falls from her lips? 



James Downey said:


> I would say that Martine maybe somewhat of an expert.
> 
> Around here an "expert" is a person from out of town with a PowerPoint presentation. I'm frequently introduced as "an expert" at my seminars (and I DO have a PowerPoint presentation, lol).
> 
> ...


----------



## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

James,

First, let me applaud the fact that you admit that some of your thinking may be flawed. It takes a big person to admit such things, and only then can you begin to learn more and more about the thing you love so much...training dogs.

I've had my share of theories and training style adjusted by people who are more knowledgable than I. It's something I don't take personally and I appreciate the fact that someone would set me straight so that I didn't continue to do the wrong thing my whole life.

That said...there are as many training styles as there are trainers. Just because someone is at a high level in their chosen sport does not mean that their training philosophy is the only one to be paid attention to. Of hundreds of high level dog trainers out there I'll bet you'll find dozens of different styles in which those specific trainers have achieved greatness. To discount ONE of those trainers over another is a shame. We should learn from EVERYONE, whether you like their style, or their personality. Life is too short to omit good information from those that have been there and know that.

Some people find Lou's posts exhausting. I find them entertaining, and packed full of useful information. When he speaks of things that I'm not really up to date on (like OC) I learn something every time. When he uses common sense, and widely known training theories to correct bad, misleading or semi-correct information, I love it because I know he (or anyone else for that matter) is right. JUst sayin


----------



## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Howard Knauf said:


> James,
> 
> That said...there are as many training styles as there are trainers. Just because someone is at a high level in their chosen sport does not mean that their training philosophy is the only one to be paid attention to. Of hundreds of high level dog trainers out there I'll bet you'll find dozens of different styles in which those specific trainers have achieved greatness.


Hell if it wasn't that way, no one could write a book about the new and improved way of doing...........whatever.

DFrost


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Lou,

Why do you insist on replying to my posts that are clearly addressed to other people? I have NO interest in anything you have to say, about any subject.
I want to hear from people who are interested in dog training and learning from other trainers. NOT from people that are only interested in proving they're "right" :-(





Lou Castle said:


> Yes, sometimes these discussion get caught up in _"minor little details."_ but as anyone with experience and success in dog training knows, "The devil is in the details."
> 
> And to characterize the entire _"nine pages"_ like this is to overlook the fact that quite a bit of training information is being shared. Quite a few times people have thanks others for answering their questions. Heck YOU just did it! lol
> 
> ...


----------



## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Lou,
> 
> Why do you insist on replying to my posts that are clearly addressed to other people?


Thomas last time I checked this was an open forum. So anything you, or anyone else writes can be responded to by any forum member, me included. If you want to say something privately to someone I suggest that you use either the Forum's Private Message System or write directly to the Email of the person in question. If a comment appears in the open forum, it's open for anyone to comment on. 

Everyone else on the forum seems to understand this but you think that your posts may ONLY be responded to by the person that you wrote to. Sorry but that's not how this, or any other forum that I know of, works. 



Thomas Barriano said:


> I have NO interest in anything you have to say, about any subject.


Then I have some suggestions for you. Get yourself some will power and simply don't ready my posts. I don't know if this forum has an "ignore" feature or not but if it does, then you might give some consideration to using it. If that feature is not available, then I suggest that you lobby the list owner to set it up and then use it. 

Otherwise you can simply get over yourself. 



Thomas Barriano said:


> I want to hear from people who are interested in dog training and learning from other trainers.


I've demonstrated repeatedly that I'm willing to learn from anyone, even you. During a recent discussion on another topic I was the one who time–after–time asked people for details of what they were doing in the hopes of learning something new. I'm one of the most open–minded trainers that I know. I know that I don't have all the answers and so I'm often asking questions about the methods of others. 



Thomas Barriano said:


> NOT from people that are only interested in proving they're "right"


Sometimes I'm right and sometimes I'm not. When I'm not I'm happy to admit it. But since what we have here is nothing more than a difference of opinion about the use of a tool, there's no right or wrong. There's only what gives results achieved humanely. 

Thanks so much for your comments!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Yes, this board does indeed have that "ignore" feature. For anyone who doesn't want to read someone's posts, it works perfectly.


So no more Thomas-Lou saga. The thread is about training the recall with an e-collar.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Yes, this board does indeed have that "ignore" feature. For anyone who doesn't want to read someone's posts, it works perfectly.
> 
> 
> So no more Thomas-Lou saga. The thread is about training the recall with an e-collar.


* THANKS VERY MUCH Connie! *


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Lou Castle said:


> James you used a number of terms improperly. I just pointed it out. It's not a matter of _"getting you"_ it's a matter of confusing some reader who may not know the correct definitions of the terms.
> 
> You also made numerous assumptions about how I use the Ecollar. I'd guess that they're based on your own (by your description) lack of success with the tool. I noticed that you didn't answer a number of questions that I asked.
> 
> ...


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Four different e-collar recall videos--all at different stages of training--3 different dogs. All trained the same way with the collar.

This is pet recall & finish with 3 weeks e-collar training. She doesn’t need speed or perfect position—just recall reliability under all conditions. Her owners wanted her calmed down so she wouldn’t bite, jump up & run wild in the house. Same video I posted earlier in the thread:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMVUR9G2FT0

This is my titled SchH dog--video taken today:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yrh0LC94kck

This is my competition puppy at 3-months-old—all motivational recall & finish.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hxuhHTl4Vo

This is the GSD puppy at 10-months old—he started e-collar training around 5 days ago & what a difference it’s made. The e-collar is used to:

increase speed
come to me immediately without stopping for any reason
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARmn7R_bzqA

I proof the down, front finish & heel away from the come to me—coming to me should be joyful—he is rewarded at the end. At different distances, I release him with OK which means he’s free & I throw the ball past me so he doesn’t get into the habit of stopping to pick up his reward. If he slows down or if he veers off course, I use the level 10 continuous on a Dogtra collar that goes up to 127. As soon as he’s back to speed and/or ignores distractions the stimulation stops & I praise him.

The whole power of the e-collar (or any correction) is the dog needs to know exactly what turns it off or avoids the stimulation. This means you need to know how to communicate with your dog—when your dog doesn’t know what you want, he can’t obey you. The dog should thoroughly be trained with motivation before you start with the collar. There is going to be stress with the collar—you should minimize it with thoroughly training your dog with motivation first so there is no question about what you want. You should also immediately mark the right behavior when you stop the stim.

When you have a good relationship with your dog, there should be very few times you need to use the e-collar. When you condition the collar & the remote, the dog will look for your direction to keep him safe. It will improve your relationship.


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## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

Hey Sue, in regards to the last video, if he doesnt slow down or go off course there is no use for the ecollar then?


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

James Downey said:


> I am sorry, I am having a hard time giving a shit....what's the truth again?



The truth is, you're getting way off base and fighting about a subject you don't know much about.

I saw your comment about where you think lou has his head. Not cool.

chill out and learn something or disagree and be quite.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Sue Miller said:


> The dog should thoroughly be trained with motivation before you start with the collar. There is going to be stress with the collar—you should minimize it with thoroughly training your dog with motivation first so there is no question about what you want. You should also immediately mark the right behavior when you stop the stim.


Nice videos. Thanks for sending them. I still disagree that dogs _"should thoroughly be trained with motivation _[or any method for that matter] _before you start with the collar."_ There's stress involved in any training method, including with the so-called "kinder, gentler methods" (and that's not meant as a dig). It's going to be there no matter what method is used so I just start using the Ecollar rather than spend time teaching something with another method first. 

I don't think that the cessation of the stim needs another marker. Fine if you want to do it, but it's not necessary. The dogs know when it shuts off and they quickly learn that it is its own marker. I think that requiring a separate marker it is too much for the average pet owner (whatever that means). 



Sue Miller said:


> When you have a good relationship with your dog, there should be very few times you need to use the e-collar.


I think that this really depends on the dog. If he's highly driven and highly distractible you'll probably be using it more than a dog who's less driven and not so distractible. 

Why do you think that having a good relationship with your dog means that you'll be using the Ecollar less. And what do you define as a good relationship?


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Steve Strom said:


> Hey Sue, in regards to the last video, if he doesnt slow down or go off course there is no use for the ecollar then?


No use of the collar unless he slows down or becomes distracted. He has done hundreds of motivational recalls before but this is doubly reinforced with the negative reinforcement (e-collar) & positive reinforcement (ball). The collar wasn't used in these 2 recalls.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Chris Michalek said:


> I saw your comment about where you think lou has his head. Not cool.


Chris, in all fairness I'm the one who made the comment about where James has his head. It was rude. I apologize to James and the Forum members.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Sue Miller said:


> He has done hundreds of motivational recalls before but *this is doubly reinforced with the negative reinforcement (e-collar) * & positive reinforcement (ball). The collar wasn't used in these 2 recalls. [Emphasis added]


Some reason you have not mentioned the other phase of the Ecollar that's operating here? That's the positive punishment (+P) that occurs when you press the button. The negative reinforcement (–R) occurs when you RELEASE the button. I think it's just as important as the –R.


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Negative reinforcement increases the likelihood that the targeted behavior will be repeated. Eg in the videos--Quinn slows down, low-level stim applied, Quinn speeds up, stimulation stops. Quinn will most likely come fast next time. Negative reinforcement is rewarding for the dog when the stim is either escaped or avoided.

Positive punishment decreases the likelihood that the dog will repeat the behavior. EG--Gabbie jumps on the kids--higher level 25-30 nick each time she jumps. Adding "NO" before the nick will condition the word to mean the same as the stimulation. You can't condition the pain but you can condition the fear of the discomfort which will cause her to stop jumping.


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## Maria Janota (Sep 24, 2009)

Lou Castle said:


> Still not 100% sure what you're asking but I'll take a shot. The situation you propose is probably not going to happen if you follow my protocols because there are milestones that occur before you move on to a teaching new behavior. They ensure that the dog does not get confused because too many behaviors have been taught at a time.
> 
> But let's say that your dog is off leash in the park and he's smelling all the new smells about 25 yards from you. You've been through the recall and the sit protocols. You tell him to sit but he does not. You press the button on your collar but he still does not sit. More than likely it's because you're setting is too low. That setting worked fine when he was learning and was still on leash or closer to you, but now he's distracted and he does not even feel it. So you bump the dial a few numbers (assuming you're using a Dogtra Ecollar with 127 levels) and repeat the command. At some point he'll feel the stim and will comply.
> 
> ...


Yes, I read your articles (most of them). I must admit, after reading I thought `fine, even I wouldn`t screw anything`and then a little bit later my confidence just vanished
But yes I get the general idea, I like those protocols, will probably try it (I`ve already found this lowest level). Not sure if it is a good idea messing it with what we are doing at the moment.


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## Maria Janota (Sep 24, 2009)

Heh, now I read the rest of the thread  There is no point to discuss something when one is not willing to get the point via internet. For me Lou`s method is forceing the dog to learn, but details matters. I did forced retrieve (forced keeping in the mouth) and this is what my dog loves most now. I`ve heard how stresfull forced retrieve is, but the level of stress was so low, that at first my trainer was mad at me for me screwing all our work:roll: Anyway low level of stress and more treats then for other things got us to very fast and joyfull learning. I can`t see why it wouldn`t work the same with e coll.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Lou Castle said:


> Chris, in all fairness I'm the one who made the comment about where James has his head. It was rude. I apologize to James and the Forum members.


 
And I did write something less than tasteful. I did delete it and do apologize that some people did see it. I also do apologize for the poking comments. And to be truthful, I no doubt recongize you do have an intellegent training program going on. I do have a habit of trying to be right by picking apart posts. That's not very professional and I do know that this not what the world of dog training needs. Sometimes I let my less than classy charcter triats shine through when I get riled up I do appaluade your tact of trying to make things more civil. thanks for understanding. 

But back to E-collars. Maybe it's my dog, maybe it's me. But I did do electronic training when my dog turned about 2 and had her one already. I did this for about 2 years. I just found that the collar in my experience overtime slowly chisled the dogs animation and fun loving spirit down. She began to worry a little more and more. It was suttle and I did not see it till one day, I said what the hell happened to my dog! I then by accident started training with someone who did not use any collars and was having success at high levels. I thought if I was to train with this person, I was going to have give up some of my old ideas and try his. I had much more success and yes things did take a little more time. But once she got it, she got it. With the collar it seemed that I always would have it for a few weeks then I would have to remind her that I could stim her. Most of my training was second hand information from a person that trained with Bart Bellon...this person has a had success at high levels. So, It was working for someone. And I tried my hardest to stick to the program and be consistent. I started to see my dog was willing at times to risk getting shocked to do things like skip blinds or not out. I never had a problem with recalls. But I thought that's not really Obedience. The dog is gambling on whether the shock would come or not...even though the dog got shocked everytime it gambled. 

I then started to pay attention to others using E-collars. Dogs I have knonw thier whole lives were having the exact same problems. And some who had trainers who were less consistent had nightmare problems like when the dog just learns to be helpless takes the shock and keeps on doing what it's doing. 

Now I think it's absolutley impossible to train a dog to a high level without some aversive training. But with every form of punishment and negative reiforcement I have employed I see by-products I do not like....no matter how suttle the correction. 

So, I by no means claim to be an E-collar guru by any stretch....in fact I am the opposite. It has not worked for me as I wished it would. But I do think that the choice I made to remove the collars and try to use nothing but +R and -P only. I may not have the training product I want as of yet. But removing those things forced me to use my brain more. I have made more progress learning about training by putting the collars away, than anyother thing I have done.

So maybe that will be the key. Through this part of the evolution of my training program I will learn enough to effectivley employ aversive training as part of my program.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Maria Janota said:


> Heh, now I read the rest of the thread  There is no point to discuss something when one is not willing to get the point via internet. For me Lou`s method is forceing the dog to learn, but details matters. I did forced retrieve (forced keeping in the mouth) and this is what my dog loves most now. I`ve heard how stresfull forced retrieve is, but the level of stress was so low, that at first my trainer was mad at me for me screwing all our work:roll: Anyway low level of stress and more treats then for other things got us to very fast and joyfull learning. I can`t see why it wouldn`t work the same with e coll.


 
Your the second person in a week that told me they did a force hold, and now the dog loves the exercise. I would be interested in hearing the evolution of the training. would care to explain how you did this.


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

I was making a video kidding around with somebody about training but here's an example of Lou's method, poor pup. lol His recalls are fast as hell http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmvQnJnkkeY


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Very nice. Especially with all the distractions.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Al Curbow said:


> I was making a video kidding around with somebody about training but here's an example of Lou's method, poor pup. lol His recalls are fast as hell http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmvQnJnkkeY


 
Nice work.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Al Curbow said:


> I was making a video kidding around with somebody about training but here's an example of Lou's method, poor pup. lol His recalls are fast as hell http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmvQnJnkkeY



Nut shot no doubt! Who ever said dog training wasn't a full contact sport? LOL! Nice work Al! Cudos for not going down either! Those do smart! #-o


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Sue Miller said:


> He has done hundreds of motivational recalls before but *this is doubly reinforced with the negative reinforcement (e-collar) * & positive reinforcement (ball). The collar wasn't used in these 2 recalls. [Emphasis added]


Is there some reason you have not mentioned the other phase of the Ecollar that's operating here? That's the positive punishment (+P) that occurs when you press the button. The negative reinforcement (–R) occurs when you RELEASE the button. I think the +P is just as important as the –R.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Sue Miller said:


> Negative reinforcement increases the likelihood that the targeted behavior will be repeated. Eg in the videos--Quinn slows down, low-level stim applied, Quinn speeds up, stimulation stops. Quinn will most likely come fast next time. Negative reinforcement is rewarding for the dog when the stim is either escaped or avoided.
> 
> Positive punishment decreases the likelihood that the dog will repeat the behavior. EG--Gabbie jumps on the kids--higher level 25-30 nick each time she jumps. Adding "NO" before the nick will condition the word to mean the same as the stimulation. You can't condition the pain but you can condition the fear of the discomfort which will cause her to stop jumping.


In the training that's being discussed, the recall, what is the effect of the +P that occurs when the button is pressed? When do you press the button on the recall? Is there some reason that you went to a discussion of a dog _"jump[ing] on the kids …"_ instead of sticking with the topic?


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## Maria Janota (Sep 24, 2009)

James Downey said:


> Your the second person in a week that told me they did a force hold, and now the dog loves the exercise. I would be interested in hearing the evolution of the training. would care to explain how you did this.


I can try. It was the standard precedure with two leashes, one back tied, pinch and the second kept in hand. First my trainer showed it to me. We didn`t have much time so it was quick, I was suppoused to get it and repeat for one week. My trainer is a serious decoy - the kind that just has natural pressure standing in front of the dog in such situation, so neither my female liked this exercise, nor did I. That`s why I forced myself into it after 4 days  And I did it very softly. My dog became handler sensitive earlier so I was and still am very carefull to be soft in body language, voice, etc. She doesn`t really care for quick pinch, but one `no` said to seriously can stress her while training. So we did it in the way she couldn`t move, but didn`t freak out. Every time she performed well I was *very *enthusiastic. I used clicker too. Clicker is cool and fun for her. It came to my mind to treat her with more hot dogs then usually, for every holding she was geting 3. And that was something she got very fast  Then there were smoked fishes, she went crazy for it. And it worked fine. I think I did it three times, in 3 days. Each time we came back home we repeated it without leashes just with clicker.
I`m not sure if I was clear enough, for me it is always not about the correction or force, but aboute what comes after, so the dog doesn`t loose motivation and still has fun.
There still are extra treats for retrieve and she loves it. She also holds different objects now.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Maria Janota said:


> Yes, I read your articles (most of them). I must admit, after reading I thought `fine, even I wouldn`t screw anything`and then a little bit later my confidence just vanished


Maria your experience is not uncommon. Because of all the people who have given horrible warnings about the dangers of Ecollar use many people are deathly afraid of using one. Look at my page of myths for some of these warnings. HERE.  

Many warnings come from people who have never even seen a modern Ecollar, much less used one. They're just repeating things they've heard or read. 

Some people have experience in using the tools as they were years ago when high level stim was the way that most people used them. Nowadays lots of people say that they use "low level stim" but they give no definition as to what that means. I'm pretty sure that so far I'm the only one here who's defined what that phrase means. It's the level of stim that the dog can first perceive in the situation that he's in at that moment. No one else has said this. I will assume that since they're using the Ecollar mostly in a punishment mode that they're using level of stim that are quite a bit higher than I am. Especially in light of the problems they've described when using the Ecollar. If I've made an improper assumption about anyone who's contributed in this thread so far, please let me know. 

What this means is that *for their methods * their warnings may be appropriate. But since they're just guessing about my methods, never having seen it they're only guessing about them, based on what they do. Those warnings and fears are NOT appropriate.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

James Downey said:


> And I did write something less than tasteful …


Thanks James. Apology accepted. 



James Downey said:


> But back to E-collars. Maybe it's my dog, maybe it's me. But I did do electronic training when my dog turned about 2 and had her one already. I did this for about 2 years. I just found that the collar in my experience overtime slowly chisled the dogs animation and fun loving spirit down. She began to worry a little more and more. It was suttle and I did not see it till one day, I said what the hell happened to my dog!


Of course I haven't seen your dog and don't know anything about her but when I've seen this with an Ecollar it's due to a couple of issues. One is that the stim level is too high for the dog on a consistent basis. Another issue that sometimes occurs is one of balance. Too much punishment and not enough reinforcement. Every dog is different on their needs about this but I tend to go overboard on the reinforcement side. 



James Downey said:


> Most of my training was second hand information from a person that trained with Bart Bellon...this person has a had success at high levels. So, It was working for someone.


I'll suggest that this is not the best way to learn to use an Ecollar. Sometimes that person has learned how to "drive their own dog" but not enough to help you "drive" yours. And their dog may need less reinforcement than yours.  If you emulate what they're doing your ratio of punishment to reinforcement may fall behind on the reinforcement side. 

Bart Bellon talks about _"Nepopo = negative – positive – positive."_ He's talking about having a 1:2 ratio between punishment and reinforcement. I'm much higher than that, perhaps 1:5 or even 1:10. 



James Downey said:


> And I tried my hardest to stick to the program and be consistent. I started to see my dog was willing at times to risk getting shocked to do things like skip blinds or not out.


For the first problem I like to put people in every blind but not allow the dog to close with them. I'll let him see them but drag him away and put him up for a while. I don't correct that with the Ecollar. I approach it from a "drive angle" rather than try to correct the undesired behavior of missing a blind. 

I teach the out from a drive angle too. I keep meaning to write up the method but get busy with other things. 



James Downey said:


> I then started to pay attention to others using E-collars. Dogs I have knonw thier whole lives were having the exact same problems. And some who had trainers who were less consistent had nightmare problems like when the dog just learns to be helpless takes the shock and keeps on doing what it's doing.


The problem here, as you point out, is consistency. I'd bet that if these people were inconsistent, they'd not be getting good results, no matter what tool they were using. I'd guess that they were being lazy and hoping that the Ecollar would cover this. The Ecollar is no different in this from any other tool. An Ecollar is not going to give an inconsistent trainer good results. But this is the case if he's using toys, treats, a leash or anything else you can think of. 



James Downey said:


> Now I think it's absolutley impossible to train a dog to a high level without some aversive training. But with every form of punishment and negative reiforcement I have employed I see by-products I do not like....no matter how suttle the correction.


This is part of what I'm saying James. If you only use the Ecollar as a correction you're limited as to how much communication you can get. If you've got a super dog as some here do, as I've said, you can have great success. But if you don't have that dog, there can be problems. Teaching the behaviors with the Ecollar means clearer communication with the dog. 

Let me back up a bit. It occurs to me that I've not been clear about something. Most of the dogs I work with have quite a bit of training. I've mentioned that many people only come to the Ecollar when they've had some problem that their methods haven't been able to solve. Most of these dogs, for example, know what the recall command means, they just have their own agenda. So when I say that I don't train the recall first, it's usually because the dog already knows what to do, he's just not doing it. 

When I work with my own puppies, I start training them as soon as they come home, heck even on the ride home. So by the time they're old enough to start Ecollar work they already know what a recall is. But if I was to start training a six month old puppy who had not work before I got there, I'd not do any training before starting with the Ecollar. 

Now with those dogs many people will just start stimming the dog for undesired behavior. Many will have a leash for guidance if the dog gets confused, but some will not. With such dogs I just go to work as if the dog did not know the command at all. It doesn’t make any difference if the dog is a repeating SchH III, a six month old puppy that's had only treats used to lure him in, or a fearful stray that's just found a home. If you think of the Ecollar as a _ new language _ you'll realize that a dog is not going to understand the novel sensation he feels when you press the button. All he knows is that "something is biting him on the neck." He's not likely to make an association between this discomfort and his failure to comply with a command. Especially if he's been doing as he pleases for some time. Sometimes they guess correctly but often they don't. And so my methods show a dog what makes the stim start and what makes if shut off. Most other methods don't do this under controlled circumstances and so sometimes there are problems. 

When people who use leash corrections start using an Ecollar they often follow the same thought process that they're familiar with for the leash. If a dog doesn't comply, the response is to correct harder. If the dog doesn't know what's going on, using a higher level of stim isn't going to tell him, but that's what many people do. 

To those who say that you have to tailor the method to the dog I say that this is done with the Ecollar by finding the level of stim that each dog needs. If I see that the dog is getting stressed I can increase the level or reinforcement to get him out of it. I just start using the  recall protocol on him. 

Someone said earlier that I was _"forcing a dog to learn."_ (Sorry I forget who it was). I don't even understand this concept. I don't think you can force this. My method makes it easy for the dogs to learn with a relatively low number of reps, how to control the stim. Much of my scent work is done in a similar fashion. I present a situation and let the dog's natural desire to do or get something take over. I prefer to allow self–motivation and self discovery take over. 



James Downey said:


> So, I by no means claim to be an E-collar guru by any stretch....in fact I am the opposite. It has not worked for me as I wished it would. But I do think that the choice I made to remove the collars and try to use nothing but +R and -P only. I may not have the training product I want as of yet. But removing those things forced me to use my brain more.


I'm no "guru" either. I just know a few things. Some I've been taught. Some I've figured out for myself. Some I've stolen (but I give credit, lol) and some I've invented. 

I don't mean to insult but you weren't using your brain with the Ecollar. Your thinking was that it was the same as a leash, but it's not. An Ecollar stim is a completely foreign sensation to the dog. I think that a leash and collar are something familiar to him. Before his eyes even opened his mother was picking him up and moving him around by the skin on his neck. I think that when you put a leash on a dog you're awakening primeval memories of being guided into desired behaviors with pressure around his neck. That's not the case with an Ecollar stim. 

When you went to the method that you're using now, because it's so foreign to your way of thinking you had to learn an entirely new way of training, the _"using your brain more"_ that you mentioned. In truth, using an Ecollar takes just as much "brain work" as does any other tool/method, you just didn't realize it. You were lulled by familiarity into thinking that you knew how to use it. Getting information third hand also didn't help. 



James Downey said:


> I have made more progress learning about training by putting the collars away, than anyother thing I have done.


That's because it was so foreign to what came before it. Had you realized that it's the same thing with the Ecollar, you probably would have done more research, learned more about the tool and the ways that it can be used. This is something that YOU did. Not something that's "bad" about the Ecollar.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Al thanks for posting that video and for your support. "Poor dog" indeed. Lol.


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## Ian Forbes (Oct 13, 2006)

James Downey said:


> but just holding the button for a wrong response till you get the right response seems like it would cause the dog to panic, and guess till hits the right behavior.


It might seem like that to you, but it's not the case. Either the dog already knows the command (the way Martine uses it) or you guide the dog into position (the way Lou uses it).



> Because I am going to assume if you have a electric collar on the dogs neck that dog knows your not afraid to use. He is going to be trying to get it right. But if you ask for one thing and the dog does another....maybe the dog does not know what's expected? That would be my guess.


If a dog does not understand a command, you guide or lure the dog into position (unless you are free shaping). The same applies whether you are witholding a reward (-P) or pressing the button on the e-collar(+P)



> And were dealing with high drive dogs....dogs who want thier toys. like a crack head wants his rock. I am having a hard time wrapping my head around on how this E-collar theory would work better than just withholding a reward...negative punishment.


Don't forget that high drive dogs can also have high drives for other things and other behaviours. Sometimes the promise of your reward is not as great as some thing else.



> If my dog did something wrong, I would just hold back the reward till they got it right. And keep making them do again and again. And they I do not care if they get thier toy...but they do. They may guess and try different things...but now the dog does not fear making a mistake I just do not think people have the paitience for this.


This is great, but some dogs find other things more rewarding. Why is a fast solution worse than a slow solution?



> Or they live in the wonderland where thier dog is immune to the laws of learning because of thier drives. What I think happens is the dog learns it's just helpless against the crazy man with the remote. They try something, cause thier not quite sure what's being asked. OR they simply made a mistake. So Joe trainer shocks em'. this happens repeatly over the dogs life. Soon the dog figures, they do not really know what to do. they kinda do, but not totally. So they just go to old stand by behavior in that situiation, take the shock, and try behavior number 2. and this becomes the pattern...week in and week out. So the handler tries for a few sessions to get the dog to work for a toy again, but the dog is so concerned, and it's hard to see in a strong dog, but it shows up as a dog that keeps doing the same thing...with the collar shocking and his skin jumping but the dog just keeps doing what he is doing....because it's hopeless for him. He starts to believe that the shock is unavoidable. What a life for the dog.


Is that your experience? It seems that either you (or whoever you are talking about) did not have a clue. I could show you plenty of film of e-collar trained dogs that don't act like what you are describing.




> I think the best thing to do with a shock collar is throw it in the trash. I did, best thing I ever did. And I too thought I was doing it the right way. There is no right way to electracute a dog.


Aahah. ELECTROCUTION!

:???:


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

I just want to put my 2 cents in.

I have nothing against the use of the E-collar, I use it and I have seen very successfull trainers use it without causing conflict in the dog.

Martine Loots has given her insight on how to train the recall, like it or not she has experience (successfull) that can be verified.

Other people come and give their opinion as well, arguing with trainers that walk as they talk, without a single prooven result.

It may just be me, but I would like to see some footage of the performances of some of this trainers dogs, if nothing just to now if they even have one...

...a successful performance can only be measured against other dogs performing the same behaviours.

If you don't test your training skills against other trainers skills how can the reader give you the credit you think to deserve?

Happy training
Sincerely waiting for some videos, especially from Lou Castle.

Max Orsi


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Max Orsi said:


> Martine Loots has given her insight on how to train the recall, like it or not she has experience (successfull) that can be verified.
> 
> Other people come and give their opinion as well, arguing with trainers that walk as they talk, without a single prooven result.
> 
> It may just be me, but I would like to see some footage of the performances of some of this trainers dogs, if nothing just to now if they even have one...


I wonder why the only criteria that some people will accept is a video? They fail to realize that for some people it's not smart and so it's not going to happen. Police officers who keep video of their dog's work are foolish. It lays them open to lawsuits. Even the best performance can be picked apart and you only have to confuse one juror to lose a case, or a couple of them to lose a lawsuit. In some parts of the US K-9 lawsuits are rare, but where I worked and still do, there were more lawsuits in a few years than in the rest of the US combined. So we're a little more cautious and a little more hesitant to video anything. 

If anyone doubts my accomplishments I'm happy to supply references. There's a page of testimonials on my website HERE.  and most of those folks have given permission to receive emails asking questions about my work. 



Max Orsi said:


> ...a successful performance can only be measured against other dogs performing the same behaviours.


Nonsense. Anyone can look at a dog and tell if he's doing a sit or not and how fast his butt is hitting the ground. The same is true for any other behavior. Measuring one dog's performance against another's only shows you how good one dog is relative to another. If people want to compete for points that's fine with me. It's never held any interest for me. Especially when politics plays such a big part. And especially after the adrenaline that chasing real crooks brings. 



Max Orsi said:


> If you don't test your training skills against other trainers skills how can the reader give you the credit you think to deserve?


Dog I trained have put hundreds of felons in jail. That's the measure of success for police dogs. And I really don't give a damn if you, or anyone else "gives me credit." The mere fact that quite a few people have invited me back to do a second (or a third) seminar for them should tell you that they were happy with the results of the first one. 



Max Orsi said:


> Sincerely waiting for some videos, especially from Lou Castle.


I wouldn't hold my breath. Been down this road before. If I was a commercial trainer, interested in boosting my sales figures, I'd have dozens of videos. Since I'm not, I don't see the need for even one.


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

Sorry Lou,

I did not bother reading your post, For me a picture is worth a thousand words.

I guess I would keep on skipping your posts, the problem is that you may chase trainers that actually can walk the walk, away from the forum.

It gets very distracting following a discussion with all the interferences.

Happy training

Max Orsi


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Ian Forbes said:


> It might seem like that to you, but it's not the case. Either the dog already knows the command (the way Martine uses it) or you guide the dog into position (the way Lou uses it).
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Okay?


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Max Orsi said:


> Sorry Lou,
> 
> I did not bother reading your post


ROFL. I wonder why people write this? Truth is Max, I don't really care what you read or don't read. You made some statements that I responded to telling you why I don't bother with videos. My feelings aren't hurt if you don't read them. 



Max Orsi said:


> For me a picture is worth a thousand words.


The saying was made up before Photoshop and CG existed. Didja see Star Wars? How about Avatar? It's possible to show anything that you want in a video. Mistakes or bad work can be edited out leaving only what you want people to see. Videos only show what people want you to see. If that's all the evidence you'll accept, you're in a really sad place. 



Max Orsi said:


> I guess I would keep on skipping your posts


Probably gonna cry myself to sleep now! ROFL. 



Max Orsi said:


> the problem is that you may chase trainers that actually can walk the walk, away from the forum.


More nonsense. Max "I walked the walk" for about 30 years. Twenty of them involved with police dogs. Now that I'm retired I don't work a dog anymore or train for my department. I help out when people ask for it, do seminars and have a few private clients ALL of whom come from word–of–mouth. And I don't see how not posting a video is going to chase anyone away. 



Max Orsi said:


> It gets very distracting following a discussion with all the interferences.


Yamean like this post of yours that has nothing to do with the topic, prompting my response that also has nothing to do with the topic? If so, I agree.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

If someone thinks that their dog is or was "becoming less and less during training or more hectic" and they're using an Ecollar; based on the fact that there are thousands of people using the Ecollar who ARE NOT getting those results, it seems obvious that THEY ARE doing something wrong with that tool. 

MANY people use them and don't have this result! If you are, you're doing something wrong. Perhaps the tool is not for you. Perhaps you should ask for help from someone who does not get these results. So easy to blame the tool! So hard to accept responsibility.


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

Lou said:

*"Yamean like this post of yours that has nothing to do with the topic, prompting my response that also has nothing to do with the topic? If so, I agree."*

My post has everything to do with the topic, which is "Training a recall with the e-collar"

I stated I like to hear from Martine, because she has proven to be able to train with the E-collar successfully (A fact).

You called her on a training issue, stating you can do better, I asked you to show me the dog/dogs you train, so I can decide if you are worth reading or not.

So far you are just like a bunch of flyes hanging over a nice summer BBQ.

As the LEO you claim to be, you should know that without evidence there is nothing. All you have given me so far is a lot of BLA,BLA,BLA (Also a fact), and unsubtanciated claims.

I will be the first to attend one of your seminars if I like the dogs performance.

Happy training

Max Orsi


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## Tamara McIntosh (Jul 14, 2009)

James Downey said:


> There is no right way to electracute a dog.


James... Just for future reference... I HAVE personally experienced being electrocuted and have had my face melted together due to being electrocuted, and very nearly died. I have also put on an electric collar and taken the shock all the way up to the highest level. Please let me be clear.. they are in NO way, shape or form similar. The sharp pinch a dog feels at the highest power is not anything like being electrocuted.

Thank you to all those that responded to this thread in a meaningful/helpful way. I have learned a great deal and enjoy those responses that stayed on topic and helped in learning.

Tamara McIntosh


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## Megan Bays (Oct 10, 2008)

Tamara McIntosh said:


> Thank you to all those that responded to this thread in a meaningful/helpful way. I have learned a great deal and enjoy those responses that stayed on topic and helped in learning.
> 
> Tamara McIntosh


Me too. This has been a really helpful thread, and I appreciate those that posted videos with their explanations. It really helps for me to understand the process better by seeing a short clip.

I wanted to learn more info on the topic because the dog I am wanting to use the e collar on the recall with can be handler sensitive and is still a pup. I figured the e collar, if used properly, would create less of a tendency to become more handler sensitive than a hard pop on the prong collar. But would still be a clear communication device.

This has been a really great educational thread for the most part, thanks to everyone who participated!


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Max, in order to prevent another go round of useless posts please try to keep your word this time. Just skip this post. lol

Earlier I wrote,


> Yamean like this post of yours that has nothing to do with the topic, prompting my response that also has nothing to do with the topic? If so, I agree.





Max Orsi said:


> My post has everything to do with the topic, which is "Training a recall with the e-collar"


Actually it has NOTHING to do with the topic Max. It's all about me. But since you're here, didn't you just write this _" I guess I would keep on skipping your posts?"_ May I suggest that you take advantage of the "ignore feature?" 



Max Orsi said:


> You called her [Martine] on a training issue, stating you can do better


Max please show me where I said that I "can do better." You won't be able to, because *I said no such thing. *I'd appreciate it if you didn't try to put words into my mouth. 

I'll not go so far as to call you a liar because that would be impolite and I don't know your intention but what I said to Martine was that her way of using the Ecollar was _"… not the only way."_ I also talked about having a _"differing view."_ I also made the comment, _"There's more than one way it can be done."_ NEVER did I state that I can do ANYTHING better. You should be able to tell the difference. 



Max Orsi said:


> I asked you to show me the dog/dogs you train, so I can decide if you are worth reading or not.


I’m not, at least not for you. Please don't bother. Try to keep your word this time. 



Max Orsi said:


> So far you are just like a bunch of flyes hanging over a nice summer BBQ.


ROFL. How uncouth. 



Max Orsi said:


> As the LEO you claim to be


I was quite clear that I'm RETIRED. Attention to detail does not appear to be your strong suit. First you say I've said something that I've NEVER said and now you misstate the facts. If you'd like to call my old department and ask if I ever worked there, that would be fine with me. I also don't have any video of that. ROFLMAO. 



Max Orsi said:


> you should know that without evidence there is nothing.


I'm not trying to prove a case in court but if I was, eye witnesses (in this case that translates to references) would FAR outweigh a video that I could edit out anything that I didn't like. In fact a video without supporting testimony probably would not even be admitted. I offered a place where you can speak to people who have seen and used my methods, but as is often the case with doubters, you aren't interested. I think it's because you know that you will be proven wrong and you simply can't abide that. 



Max Orsi said:


> All you have given me so far is a lot of BLA,BLA,BLA (Also a fact)


No Max. It's an opinion. It would stand you in good stead to learn the difference. 



Max Orsi said:


> and unsubtanciated claims.


Easy to verify any of my claims with either emails, phone calls or both. But instead you want to sit on your ass and be spoonfed a video. 



Max Orsi said:


> I will be the first to attend one of your seminars if I like the dogs performance.


No Max, that won't happen. You are specifically *UN*invited from attending one of my seminars due to your attitude, your discourtesy and your petty, challenging manner. There is only one other person that has ever prohibited from attending one of my seminars for the exact same reasons. 

Oh BTW here we have ANOTHER post of the kind you said were _"interferences."_ NOT A WORD about the topic. Just more about me.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Tamara McIntosh said:


> James... Just for future reference... I HAVE personally experienced being electrocuted and have had my face melted together due to being electrocuted, and very nearly died. I have also put on an electric collar and taken the shock all the way up to the highest level. Please let me be clear.. they are in NO way, shape or form similar. The sharp pinch a dog feels at the highest power is not anything like being electrocuted.
> 
> Thank you to all those that responded to this thread in a meaningful/helpful way. I have learned a great deal and enjoy those responses that stayed on topic and helped in learning.
> 
> Tamara McIntosh


 
Wow!!! use a word wrong and people get all pissy....Choose your battles, some shits just to stupid argue over.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Lou Castle said:


> If someone thinks that their dog is or was "becoming less and less during training or more hectic" and they're using an Ecollar; based on the fact that there are thousands of people using the Ecollar who ARE NOT getting those results, it seems obvious that THEY ARE doing something wrong with that tool.
> 
> MANY people use them and don't have this result! If you are, you're doing something wrong. Perhaps the tool is not for you. Perhaps you should ask for help from someone who does not get these results. So easy to blame the tool! So hard to accept responsibility.


 
I think Lou that sometimes this hard to see, unless you have seen the dog it's entire life from the moment the collar was first used to years down the road. Like the effect sometimes is slow and hard to see.

Again, Everytime someone says exactly what you said, and I have known thier dog thier whole life....Thier dog is a great example of what I am see. I did not just come this conclusion without trying it, looking around....

But hey to each thier own. Do not feel threatened because the world does not agree with you. 

Also Lou when does the tool become the problem? When is the Aversive enough to cause a negative effect? If the dog is willing to stop a behavior to avoid it, or contiue a behavior to avoid it....I am sure it is enough to make the dog concerned about it. And years later, when we are still using electrical training, the dog is still getting the shock here and there. Do you think the dog eventually learns..I cannot escape, no matter what I do...he is always going to use this thing.

I bet you could make a human crazy using low level stimulation from an e-collar... Especially if done for years.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Megan McCallister said:


> What methods do you use to train a recall with an e collar?
> 
> How long do you like to condition the dog to the collar before you begin using the collar?


Megan, if you have any additional specific questions or need further information, please start a new thread with that question. This one is locked. 

DFrost


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Steve Strom said:


> Hey Bob, would you use a little more then his "working level" to drop him? Does it take much to get him up again?


Steve, I've been gone for a couple of days so I couldn't respond to your question.
I can only say that I can't answer that. :lol:
Other then stopping one of my dogs from slamming himself into a glass door I've never found a use for the e-collar.
I know they can be an excellent tool in the right hands. 
I wont say never but just haven't found the need yet.


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