# Double standard.



## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

I am the first to admit that most Malinois tend to have a bark that is not as full as most GSD. I do see many Malinois get dinged for this at trial. Not that big a deal....Until we compare blind searches and courage test speed. why don't GSD get dinged for not being as fast as a Mal? This is of course speaking of the general dog population. A GSD that runs the blinds as fast as it can, but still is pretty slow in comparison to a Malinois it is competeing against will recieve the exact same points in the blind search. 

Malinois are expected to bark like Shepherds.

Shepherds are expected to run like Shepherds and are forgiven if they make full effort, even though full effort may pale in comparison to another dog.

I expect excuses, defensivness and other BS in response to this....But it would be nice to see a reasonable answer to why this is? I mean either the Malinois should be given full points for good barking in comparison to others of it's own breed....or GSD should be compared to the speed of dogs outside of it's breed.


----------



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

But James go back to the root. The Schutzhund "standard" was the breed standard for the GSD. Then things opened up for other breeds and the Schutzhund DVG was born. Play with the K-9 in the venue that you will do best in. YOU know what your dog can and can't do. Why "standard" it to the other breeds? Just understand the game, points, judging, and other things that go with playing in the sport venue...\\/


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

A lot of it is it is an "off breed". I lost about 5 points for walking on the field with a Rott. I would love to see the breed clubs petition to change some things, but it is not likely to happen.

As far as the B&H, I think this shows you how the artificial "look" has become more important than the individual dog. If they are going for "correct" as it is defined, then ok, sure there is a points loss for a different type of bark.

Making one artificial exercise more important that measuring the dog you are looking at, makes it easier to judge, and there is a "standard" across the board.

I think that it has become a little goofy, but the judges should exercise whatever leeway they have if it is a good dog. You will have to ask, and then try and convince them. I never managed to get an explanation for my mysterious points loss. I hope you have better luck getting your point across than I did.


----------



## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

James Downey said:


> I am the first to admit that most Malinois tend to have a bark that is not as full as most GSD. I do see many Malinois get dinged for this at trial. Not that big a deal....Until we compare blind searches and courage test speed.


I just looked it up because I didn't remember speed being mentioned in the rule book regarding the blind search. It says self-confidence and nerve-steadiness, directability and controllability are of great significance. The assessment criteria are intense, goal-oriented, purposeful, goes directly, readily guided and directed, close, tight, attentive. Doesn't specifically say speed. 

Is the speed of the blind search a training thing? Can you be intense but not be a bullet? Are the judges looking at the bark as a dog thing? I'm really asking because I want to know. 

And the reason I ask is I think some judges judge with the importance placed on the training of the dog, and others judge as if it's a breed test for the GSD. Know your judges and your venue

Laura
P.S. Jim, you have no reason to be worried with Addie from what I remember!!


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Speed?? Has anyone ever "stopped" the time that a Mali's take to round the blinds and GSDs? Not always so, but the compact Mali "looks" a lot faster to the eye than the long striding GSD. I meant to do it at our June trial but forgot.

Secondly, there are Malis and GSDs that could run faster if they were more determined to go after the helper. There are a lot of good judges around that can more or less assess the dog before it gets to the H&B. The Malis and GSDs were not knocked for the high-pitched bark but if a dog was late in starting to bark and didn't bark intensively, it was commented on with subsequent 1-2 points.

I don't honestly think just speed is the issue, it's "determined coming forward" that is honoured, i.e. "let me get him" attitude, which then shows up in the following part.

Just my observations.


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> A lot of it is it is an "off breed". I lost about 5 points for walking on the field with a Rott. I would love to see the breed clubs petition to change some things, but it is not likely to happen..... I never managed to get an explanation for my mysterious points loss.


Then how could this one get a perfect 300?


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Daryl Ehret said:


> Then how could this one get a perfect 300?


Hey Darryl

Jeff lost 5 points every time HE walked out into the field with a rottweiler. Only it had nothing to do with the breed of dog


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> A lot of it is it is an "off breed". I lost about 5 points for walking on the field with a Rott. I would love to see the breed clubs petition to change some things, but it is not likely to happen.
> I never managed to get an explanation for my mysterious points loss.


I wouldn't be so quick to put it on the dog There is the possibility the first and last name of the handler could have set you back a few points also. Even now something you might want to keep a eye on.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I lost them even before I smacked the crap out of the judge in the parking lot.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

That dog looks like a show dog. With all the money in "working" show Rotts don't count out the possibility of a bribe.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Here are some scores. THis was a show dog.

'92 scores:
SchHIII ADRK 0, 96,85A, 181, 201191 Frankfurt/W
SchHIII ADRK 99, 97, 89A, 285 SG, DM '91 NK._heinitz
AD SV Bestanden 120491 Wissmar
SchHIII ADRK 100, 93,92, 285, SG 080991 Schoneck
SchHIII ADRK 100,85, 91, 276, SG 070791 Bordenau
SchHIII SV 97, 97,95, 289, V 100391 Biedenkopf

'93 Scores:
SchHIII ADRK 98, 99, 97A, 294, V 0491092, DM.SCHH'92 KEMPT.
SchHIII ADRK 0, 97, 97A, 194 181192, Biebertal
SchHIII BK 100, 100, 100A, 300, V 241092 Dillkreis

'94 scores:

SchHIII ADRK 97, 96, 96A, 289V, 031093, Neuwied
IPOIII DVG 99,95, 96, 290V, 080893, Coesfeld


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

The dog was owned by Roland Seibel, HD free and only 44 kgs in weight.

With no disrespect to RS, I wonder if the judging is as tough as when the Rotts are competing with other breeds, Mali, GSD, etc.?


----------



## Ian Forbes (Oct 13, 2006)

Daryl Ehret said:


> Then how could this one get a perfect 300?


I believe he got 300 under an ADRK judge, who is unlikely to penalise the breed!


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

There were judges that just judged the performance for sure, but the sport is still an embarrassment, and completely gay.


----------



## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> I just looked it up because I didn't remember speed being mentioned in the rule book regarding the blind search. It says self-confidence and nerve-steadiness, directability and controllability are of great significance. The assessment criteria are intense, goal-oriented, purposeful, goes directly, readily guided and directed, close, tight, attentive. Doesn't specifically say speed.
> 
> Is the speed of the blind search a training thing? Can you be intense but not be a bullet? Are the judges looking at the bark as a dog thing? I'm really asking because I want to know.
> 
> ...


 
Laura...Thanks for the nice comments about Addie. I just posted this to rev the board up a bit. I think it's true. I also think it's human biasis so we are never going to change it. Biasis will always be present. I had a judge ask to buy Addie for 5K from me after a trial....They are judging our regionals....Do you think they are going to be biasis toward Addie? No matter how hard they try, it's just part of the human condition.


----------



## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

James Downey said:


> No matter how hard they try, it's just part of the human condition.


Absolutely! Just as there's at least one judge in the USA program who I watched judge a regional event who was obviously biased _towards_ Malinois. No doubt in anyone's mind there!

Good luck at the regionals!

Laura


----------



## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

James Downey said:


> Laura...Thanks for the nice comments about Addie. I just posted this to rev the board up a bit. I think it's true. I also think it's human biasis so we are never going to change it. Biasis will always be present. I had a judge ask to buy Addie for 5K from me after a trial....They are judging our regionals....Do you think they are going to be biasis toward Addie? No matter how hard they try, it's just part of the human condition.


 
I just checked...guess I just lost my edge. They are not judging our regionals. but the point is still there.


----------



## Sherry Spivey (Sep 7, 2009)

Because it isn't about the speed. I've spent alot of time in agility, where we have clocks. I've never seen a stopwatch used to judge a schutzhund trial. You are asking to judge apples vs. oranges. Speed vs. barking quality. Not the same thing.

Any sport where you pick a "different" breed you will find bias. I did Hunter/Jumpers in horses, god help you if you showed up with a Quarterhorse in the world of warmbloods and thoroughbreds. In agility, I was repeatedly asked why I was wasting time with a GSD when the "real" agility dogs are Border Collies.

Now all that being said, my GSD will give your mali a run for it's money if you want to bring on the stopwatch....:razz:


----------



## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

I thought the dog didn't even "technically" have to bark in the blind


----------



## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Mike Lauer said:


> I thought the dog didn't even "technically" have to bark in the blind


 
The USA rulebook says for the HOLD (5 points) and BARK (5 points): The dog must confront the helper actively and attentively and bark continuously...After the dog has barked for approximately 20 seconds...Incorrect for the "BARK" (among other things) are No bark, beginning barking late, barks only briefly, does not bark continously, stops barking when handler approaches...

That said, it's only 5 points.  Some of us need those five points, though!

Laura


----------



## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Sherry Spivey said:


> Because it isn't about the speed. I've spent alot of time in agility, where we have clocks. I've never seen a stopwatch used to judge a schutzhund trial. You are asking to judge apples vs. oranges. Speed vs. barking quality. Not the same thing.
> 
> Any sport where you pick a "different" breed you will find bias. I did Hunter/Jumpers in horses, god help you if you showed up with a Quarterhorse in the world of warmbloods and thoroughbreds. In agility, I was repeatedly asked why I was wasting time with a GSD when the "real" agility dogs are Border Collies.
> 
> Now all that being said, my GSD will give your mali a run for it's money if you want to bring on the stopwatch....:razz:


You see how easy the Shepherd folks go on the defense about this one.


Actually you should read the rule book, it does matter iin all the exercises where the dog is expected to run is speed. the send out, running the blinds, escape, long bite, recall....the speed at which the dog moves is judged....in fact until the dog either downs, or gets a bite or fronts...It is the most common loss of points. So when you lose points in a trial because the dog " come quicker" or not slow down explain to the judge it's not about speed. I am sure everyone (except Mohawk John and Jack) has lost points at some point for being slow.

And you can bring you shepherd, if it can run fast, it should get full points. That's what I am saying. but if the dog at full swing is slower than another dog whom is half ass in it....the dog should not get points for effort, it should get points for ability.


----------



## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> A lot of it is it is an "off breed". I lost about 5 points for walking on the field with a Rott. I would love to see the breed clubs petition to change some things, but it is not likely to happen.
> 
> Here it is the squeaky wheel making noise. Before you know it a Rott will get 10 points for showing up :razz:


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Nutter! :lol::lol::lol:


----------



## Sherry Spivey (Sep 7, 2009)

James Downey said:


> You see how easy the Shepherd folks go on the defense about this one.
> 
> 
> Actually you should read the rule book, it does matter iin all the exercises where the dog is expected to run is speed. the send out, running the blinds, escape, long bite, recall....the speed at which the dog moves is judged....in fact until the dog either downs, or gets a bite or fronts...It is the most common loss of points. So when you lose points in a trial because the dog " come quicker" or not slow down explain to the judge it's not about speed. I am sure everyone (except Mohawk John and Jack) has lost points at some point for being slow.
> ...


Okay, there it is. You need speed, BUT you also need a bark. So, the judge marks down the shepherd for lack of speed and the judge marks down the mali for lack of barking (or quality of barking) sounds like it all works out pretty even. 

My point is that it isn't who does it fastest. No one is timing to see if the mali is faster or the shepherd. You don't get more or less points because you can run six blinds in 5.46 seconds and it takes the shepherd 7.86. It sounds like you are the one who has a problem thinking that mali's are discriminated against. I just like watching a nice dog work. Mine does it with speed, but she is an average size female. GSD's are bigger and heavier in most instances, and I think you are comparing apples to oranges looking for the same speed from GSD vs a Mal IMHO


----------



## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

Let it be known......the GSD is a better barker than the Malinois.:razz:


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Robin Van Hecke said:


> Let it be known......the GSD is a better barker than the Malinois.:razz:


I agree I'm a GSD guy through and through but if you havent seen this little guy you should prolly have a look see. www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mHj41lfZ_w


----------



## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Mike Scheiber said:


> I agree I'm a GSD guy through and through but if you havent seen this little guy you should prolly have a look see. www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mHj41lfZ_w


Wow, Mike...are you getting paid to be head of Simba's fan club? At first I thought it was cool that you were so supportive of your club member. Now I'm just annoyed. 

Oh, just curious...does Simba still wear a service vest so he can go into bars? 

Laura


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> Wow, Mike...are you getting paid to be head of Simba's fan club? At first I thought it was cool that you were so supportive of your club member. Now I'm just annoyed.
> 
> Oh, just curious...does Simba still wear a service vest so he can go into bars?
> 
> Laura


I was thinking the same thing when I posted ok enough


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> Wow, Mike...are you getting paid to be head of Simba's fan club? At first I thought it was cool that you were so supportive of your club member. Now I'm just annoyed.
> 
> Oh, just curious...does Simba still wear a service vest so he can go into bars?
> 
> Laura


I'll make a little balance for ya so you can readjust your panties or what ever else is out of alignment and get it back in to place. http://www.youtube.com/user/anxelfox#p/a/1/p2TdQ6wmbHE


----------



## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Robin Van Hecke said:


> Let it be known......the GSD is a better barker than the Malinois.:razz:


 
We will give you barking....You need all the help you can get.


----------



## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

James Downey said:


> We will give you barking....You need all the help you can get.


That was a little tongue in cheek.......I have malinois.
Too much importance is given to the bark in schutzhund nowadays....it was meant to be an indication of power in the hold but for the most part it's like cookie barking now. My dogs dont have the rythmic barking of the GSD but their intensity and the power of their strike is vastly superior.
There was a thread regarding "power in the blind" where dogs were shown training to bark in an empty blind and that's a perfect example of what I'm trying to get across. In the circles that I frequent almost more time is devoted the getting dogs to bark than to bite...almost. I'll take the somewhat interupted barking of my Malinois anyday over the "powerful" barking of SOME GSD's if the trade off is striking power.


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Robin Van Hecke said:


> That was a little tongue in cheek.......I have malinois.
> Too much importance is given to the bark in schtzhund nowwadays....it was meant to be an indication of power in the hold but for the most part it's like cookie barking now. My dogs don havve the rytmic barrking of the GSD but their intensity and the power of their strike is vastly superior.
> There was a thread regarding "power in the blind" where dogs were shown training to bark in an empty blind and that's a perfect example of what I'm trying to get across. In the circles that I frequent almost more time is devoted the getting dogs to bark than to bite...almost. I'll take the somewhat interpted barkiing of my Malinis anydaa over the "powerful" barking of SOME GSD'sif thhe trade off is striking power.


The bark and hold was never meant to be a demonstration of pray. Schutzhnd as a test was supposed to show the different facets of the dog there train ability and character.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

What a dumb ass. It was to show control over the dog, and that he didn't just run amok and bite.

The people that gayed it up thought up the whole prey defense bullshit. You really think that they were thinking people would spend YEARS shaping this bullshit exercise back in the 1920's ??


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

I have on occasion turned my head when I here someone calling someone a dumb ass.
Generaly it me calling somone a dumb ass. Who is the dumb ass?


----------



## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

Mike Scheiber said:


> I have on occasion turned my head when I here someone calling someone a dumb ass.
> Generaly it me calling somone a dumb ass. Who is the dumb ass?


Ditto on the dumb ass thing. I agree 100% that it's a bullshit excersise but nevertheless, too much emphasis is placed upon it in schutzhund. My point is that barking has little to do power. I see a lot of powerfull barking in the blind during training and when given the reward...it's a pussy bite.


----------



## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

Mike Scheiber said:


> I have on occasion turned my head when I here someone calling someone a dumb ass.
> Generaly it me calling somone a dumb ass. Who is the dumb ass?


Who the f#*! cares? Hear it all the time from him.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Yeah ! ! ! ! !!


----------

