# Differences I see



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

In this litter of pups crossed with Griff, the East German dog Done the same way I do all my pups, leaving them alone for the first 3 1/2 to 4/12 weeks. All nice pups. 1/2 stayed much close to the pen for the first 6 weeks, they other half explored the yard much more readily and slept where ever they felt like while the others always went back to their box. The ones that stayed closer to their pen, actually ran back to the safety of their pen whenever I approached and were very social as long as they were in the pen. The others were at the deck waiting for me when the door opened. The puos not crossed would all be scattered all over the yard at 5 weeks, dropping to sleep where ever they got tired at. They would all meet me at the gate and I had to drag all the pups around attached to my pantleg while trying to clean the yards. Haven't had to drag any of these pups yet. A few have attacked my pants but not that much. They are all scappers and whenever I leave for the night Imhave to take either the big ones or the small ones with me for the night so they won't hurt each other. When I take the ones to the GF's for the night, the ones that stayed close to the pen are totally lost in a new situation. Very slow to recover from a new situation. Griff was much the same way in some respects. I got him at 9 weeks and he was very slow to being comfortable roaming the yard, Stayed on the ramp to the deck most of the time for about 3 weeks and very slowly started getting farther from the house. My males are ready to breed at 7 mo, Griff was a pup until close to 1 1/2 years. My dogs are very independent, where Griff was very dependent. Still is when I am in his yard. He is right with me to the point it is hard to get things done. Very dependent vs very indepndent.


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## Mike Valente (Sep 14, 2010)

IMO this was a straight hybrid breeding within your breed Don. Is the outcome meeting expectations at this point or way too soon to tell, with the obvious difference in maturity rates between the two lines it may take 2 years for the true stars to shine. If looking for the true hybrid, the blending the best from both lines your definitely going to have to be patient with these pups IMO. Did Griffs breeder demonstrate or discuss any of his selection process for pups in order to incorporate or are you simply selecting for the traits that favor your style of dog and this simply being an outcross of fresh blood and nothing more as far as adding traits are concerned.

This is all very interesting to me on many levels for my line of dog is definitely a hybrid of pitbull lines, my final future product would ideally be a super terrier rather then a bully type dog.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Mike Valente said:


> IMO this was a straight hybrid breeding within your breed Don. Is the outcome meeting expectations at this point or way too soon to tell, with the obvious difference in maturity rates between the two lines it may take 2 years for the true stars to shine. If looking for the true hybrid, the blending the best from both lines your definitely going to have to be patient with these pups IMO. Did Griffs breeder demonstrate or discuss any of his selection process for pups in order to incorporate or are you simply selecting for the traits that favor your style of dog and this simply being an outcross of fresh blood and nothing more as far as adding traits are concerned.
> 
> This is all very interesting to me on many levels for my line of dog is definitely a hybrid of pitbull lines, my final future product would ideally be a super terrier rather then a bully type dog.


I agree fully Mike. There is an obvious diffrence in maturity rates in some areas so I am just taking it slower than I normally would. I talk to Stew off and on and we talked a few days ago about how the pups are progressing. It is fascinating seeing the differences. I told Stew when I ordered the pup to watch for the very social male that got along well with all but that the bullies steered clear of. That would be the most stable dog as far as I am concerned. 

Originally I toyed with the idea of placing some in sport homes but am well past considering anything along those lines for obvious reasons. So my main nterest is back to my own lines and perserving the social dominace in males I have. You ought to see "Cash"! Great pup. a bit behind what I am used to by maybe 1 1/2 weeks. He is a blast. I kept one female also. I had one other one pretty much staked out for me, but, she for what it is worth, reminded me of the male pups and bloodied all the pups up. If she followed the normal pattern, she would have one litter at best, and quit producing. I kept a more feminine female. 

Griff is in with Natasha right now.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

You base the selection of the puppy on his ability to get along with other dogs and not be picked on by the "bullies," yet you evaluate him on his confidence in leaving his comfort zone, early maturity--judged by how early he will breed; and his attachment to humans [dependence to you]. You think how he gets on with dogs in a pack determines overall stability in terms of how he relates to humans and the environment? How unique. 

T


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

That has to be one of the dumbest posts yet T. Of course I judge dogs the way I do. How dogs react in their own environment and how other dogs react to them tells me everything. Or, you can guess at what you think you see.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

So why even discuss his environmental confidence and dependence. As long as he gets along and the bullies leave him alone then you got what you asked for.

As for dumb, do you really think a dog out of sport is based on how he gets along with dogs and wanders around a kennel. 

T


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> So why even discuss his environmental confidence and dependence. As long as he gets along and the bullies leave him alone then you got what you asked for.
> 
> As for dumb, do you really think a dog out of sport is based on how he gets along with dogs and wanders around a kennel.
> 
> T


If you don't understand why I discuss it don't read it T. I am not looking for a sport dog. I am looking for a confident, stable, well balanced dog capable of doing many things well. I am not looking for a single function dog.


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

Quote;
I am looking for a confident, stable, well balanced dog capable of doing many things well. I am not looking for a single function dog. unquote

What does that mean Don?
Particularly the part that says 'many things well'?
So far none of your dogs have shown any 'adaptability'.

That you're looking for that elusive center is a grand enterprise but don't start crapping on the people that have come close, are there, or still working on it.
Don't be so defensive.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Randy, you really want to join the others? If so, if you are going to work dogs, learn what "defensive" is. Example....In my post to T, I am telling her what I want in "my" dogs. The thread is about "my" dogs and what I look at and am seeing in the cross.
Nothing defensive about it. Your post on the other hand is totally "defensive" because you think I may have slighted sport dogs and your intent on making known that you don't understand what defensive is. There are many single function dogs being bred. 

As far as what my dogs do well, I got titles hanging on my wall, my dogs are in multiple books doing multiple things already, mostly state certified venues. But, I realize I know nothing about dogs compared to the folks here because they train their own dog for sport. Let me tell you Randy, I got not one thing against sport dogs. Got nothing against show dogs. It is the people the two venues seem to attract. These two venues got more pseudo experts than any other dog venue hands down. You might want to keep that in mind before you join them.


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

Now I really don't know wtf you're talking about Don.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

curious Don, and sorry but i haven't looked thru your web site...but if the answers are there i will

anyway :
- do you communicate regularly with other dale breeders ? 
- have you found any that share similar philosophies to yours ?
- or do you consider your breeding philosophy unique ?

seen a few around but i have never touched one so i am in the dark regarding this breed, and i only have one hunting dog bud who breeds and hunts with kai-kens in the boondocks (on a small scale and he culls what he doesn't like). the similarity is he doesn't consider himself a dog trainer either, but whenever i visit him i'm always ragging him pointing out stuff he does that i consider training 

and it really is only curiosity ... i'm not shopping for one  

but sometimes you remind me of the harley crowd i used to run with 
.... you probably know how it goes ....the "if i gotta explain it....never mind" style...would that be a correct analogy ??


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

And then there's the idea of a "single function" sport dog. What is that "single" function and what traits do you think the dog has to have to make it successful. The sport dog is single function but selection for the socially dog dominant dog isn't? You mentioned for "your" dogs, the dog that gets along with other dogs and that the bullies leave alone is the more "stable" dog. How do you define stable? Why would you believe this is true of all dogs? If a dog that is "bully" picks on one of the other puppies, does that mean that other puppy is unstable? How, depending on how you define stable?

As for cross vs. non-cross, you've had less than ideal pups in a closed gene pool so whose to say the differences you see are attributed to the cross. 

As I said, I think you are really unique. Rick as for adaptability, I don't think you can decide that based on the dogs Don keeps to live in a breeding pen environment. Get one out of there by a certain age and raise it a certain way, is a better way of determining adaptability and performance ability.

T


T


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

_"I am looking for a confident, stable, well balanced dog *capable of doing many things well.* "_



What are some of the things? This is a straightforward, curious question.



I don't think that asking it is "defensive."


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## Edward Weiss (Sep 19, 2011)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> And then there's the idea of a "single function" sport dog. What is that "single" function and what traits do you think the dog has to have to make it successful. The sport dog is single function but selection for the socially dog dominant dog isn't? You mentioned for "your" dogs, the dog that gets along with other dogs and that the bullies leave alone is the more "stable" dog. How do you define stable? Why would you believe this is true of all dogs? If a dog that is "bully" picks on one of the other puppies, does that mean that other puppy is unstable? How, depending on how you define stable?
> 
> As for cross vs. non-cross, you've had less than ideal pups in a closed gene pool so whose to say the differences you see are attributed to the cross.
> 
> ...


As the original importer and "trainer" of the mother of Don's Griff, I thought it might be interesting to look at her pedigree. Her father Ilko was both a "Sport Dog" and working police dog.
Her mother in a Berlin VPG event bested the the top Airedale of that year, which I think was Eddy v. Erikson. She is tightly bred on old DDR sport/service lines.
Griffs father was "Danny" a German import that Stew put a VPG3 on here. I am very curious what the cross will yield.

These are not laid back Airedales,and my experience in protection work is the harder you push them the harder they push back.
Not sure what the dependance thing means, but my latest girl that I got at eight weeks from the German Czech border area likes to be near me but at the same time has a pretty aloof demeanor. She is very biddable quick study in training but will invent her variations on whatever exercise she is taught. 
Once again should be an interesting mix. 

http://airedale-christinenheide.de/html/g-wurf___von_der_christinenhei.html


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Edward Weiss said:


> As the original importer and "trainer" of the mother of Don's Griff, I thought it might be interesting to look at her pedigree. Her father Ilko was both a "Sport Dog" and working police dog.
> Her mother in a Berlin VPG event bested the the top Airedale of that year, which I think was Eddy v. Erikson. She is tightly bred on old DDR sport/service lines.
> Griffs father was "Danny" a German import that Stew put a VPG3 on here. I am very curious what the cross will yield.
> 
> ...


And I think one of the better indications of what the dogs do is if you took one, raised it and worked it. I enjoyed watching Brisco work. I don't think you can look at Griff or evaluate him along Don's social dominant dog= stable dog standard. I think the line and type of work he comes from has absolutely nothing to do with how other dogs view him. Its difficulty to know how he would stack up regarding the type of work his line was bred for because Don didn't ask for a dog capable of that type of work from what he has said. A sport/service dog breeder or handler would be looking at other categories in terms of stability and suitability for the work. But maybe this an airedale thing. I don't think a dog is "dependent" because he follows you around the kennel. One of the typical traits of the police/service type dog can be its affinity for people. That doesn't necessarily make it dependent--or so I think anyway. 

It seems mostly when a breeder outcrosses, he crosses to bring in certain traits and not lose what he has. I don't remember what Don said about the reason for choosing this line as opposed to others; or if its just for hybrid vigor.

T


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> _"I am looking for a confident, stable, well balanced dog *capable of doing many things well.* "_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I am pretty sure you know the difference between asking a question and crying about something I said. In answer to your question, I have said it to many times Connie. This will be the last time. Service dog for the blind, service dogs for the handicapped that get to go on planes, in restraunts etc because they ar state certified(one of which is the airedale in Howell's book of dogs, an all breed book), They belong to teachers working with handicapped and disadvantaged kid and those dogs are also in books and spend 3 days a week working in different schools with the handicapped kids. The state covers their insurance because, yes, they had to be state certified. They have all the obedience titles up thru and including UD(and none at that level ever did an attentive heel). They are generally known for the big game, but, there are more and more doing birdwork, cold water retrieving. One real trainer from Georgia recently bought one to train for an African guide to track wounded game in Africa. Why did he get one of mine? Because it is the 8th dog of mine he has trained for hunting and he knows them well...the rest were all for retriever work. One was given to a friend of Carol Boche and that dog is still young but is pretty much trained for cadaver work. You have to understand Connie, I do less hunting these days and really concentrate more on placing the top dogs into new venues....with credible people to train them. Does the breed more good that way and yes, I give the dogs to those people. I already got enough heads on the wall, got trophies and cert on the wall. Don't need anymore and would rather see the dog doing different work that makes a difference. And yes, every one of the males coming out of here is social dominate which boils down to the most confident dogs on 4 legs. Something T apparently isn't aware of. Probably because she doesn't know what it really is. Most people that have a real job for the dog, have neither the time nor the inclination to try and work a dog they have to handle with kid gloves in fear of ruining them. They get rid of dogs that have to be handled like that.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I And yes, every one of the males coming out of here is social dominate which boils down to the most confident dogs on 4 legs. Something T apparently isn't aware of. Probably because she doesn't know what it really is. Most people that have a real job for the dog, have neither the time nor the inclination to try and work a dog they have to handle with kid gloves in fear of ruining them. They get rid of dogs that have to be handled like that.


Don, I watched the videos of your social dominant males [that you kept] and I didn't see confidence. 

T


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Don, I watched the videos of your social dominant males [that you kept] and I didn't see confidence.
> 
> T


So, let see what your dogs have done T. AKC herding and?????? Titles???? Books????? Actual working dogs???? Hunting???? Obedience titles???? Don't be shy. I am curious to see if I should really care what you think you know.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> So, let see what your dogs have done T. AKC herding and?????? Titles???? Books????? Actual working dogs???? Hunting???? Obedience titles???? Don't be shy. I am curious to see if I should really care what you think you know.


Aren't you tired of call outs by now. How about I say that I excel at house pets that live pretty long lives so there aren't many. Since you don't care about sport titles anyway why should that matter in your decision regarding whether to care about what I think. Let's say I've never titled a dog in anything and you don't care what I think, the questions are still easy enough to answer from someone with your experience. Perhaps I can learn something from your 12 generations. You started this thread concerning what you think of a first generation outcross and now you want to get OT on your own thread and discuss my title history. Really?? I think your F1 cross and what you think of your outcross stud dog and his genetic producing potential is waaaayyyyy more interesting.

Incidentally, do your dogs go back on any of the hunting Oorange or Redline dogs I've been reading about. My brother-in-law thinks he wants a dale so I've been researching.

T


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I am pretty sure you know the difference between asking a question and crying about something I said. In answer to your question, I have said it to many times Connie. This will be the last time. Service dog for the blind, service dogs for the handicapped that get to go on planes, in restraunts etc because they ar state certified(one of which is the airedale in Howell's book of dogs, an all breed book), They belong to teachers working with handicapped and disadvantaged kid and those dogs are also in books and spend 3 days a week working in different schools with the handicapped kids. The state covers their insurance because, yes, they had to be state certified. They have all the obedience titles up thru and including UD(and none at that level ever did an attentive heel). They are generally known for the big game, but, there are more and more doing birdwork, cold water retrieving. One real trainer from Georgia recently bought one to train for an African guide to track wounded game in Africa. Why did he get one of mine? Because it is the 8th dog of mine he has trained for hunting and he knows them well...the rest were all for retriever work. One was given to a friend of Carol Boche and that dog is still young but is pretty much trained for cadaver work. You have to understand Connie, I do less hunting these days and really concentrate more on placing the top dogs into new venues....with credible people to train them. Does the breed more good that way and yes, I give the dogs to those people. I already got enough heads on the wall, got trophies and cert on the wall. Don't need anymore and would rather see the dog doing different work that makes a difference. And yes, every one of the males coming out of here is social dominate which boils down to the most confident dogs on 4 legs. Something T apparently isn't aware of. Probably because she doesn't know what it really is. Most people that have a real job for the dog, have neither the time nor the inclination to try and work a dog they have to handle with kid gloves in fear of ruining them. They get rid of dogs that have to be handled like that.


Service work, hunting, ob titles .... these are perfectly good objectives, IMHO, and I don't get why that answer is so defensive. I really don't. (And I didn't read Randy's post as crying about something you said. JMHO.)

I don't remember reading this job list in your posts before._"In answer to your question, I have said it to many times Connie. This will be the last time" _..... if you have "said it too many times," well, I missed it. I think that there are many members here whose dogs' jobs I have failed to memorize. I knew your dogs as hunting dogs.



But anyway .... 

Not sure I agree that confidence and social dominance are necessarily synonymous.


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Don Turnipseed said:


> *My males are ready to breed at 7 mo *


Don, am I misreading this?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

> And yes, every one of the males coming out of here is social dominate which boils down to the most confident dogs on 4 legs.


Are you claiming that your male dogs are the most confident dogs on 4 legs, Don ?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

at 7 months, Don can tell that the dog is breeding quality...

I am also sure that the hip status is easily discernible at 7 months using the naked eye.....if you are Don...

mind boggling...


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Service work, hunting, ob titles .... these are perfectly good objectives, IMHO, and I don't get why that answer is so defensive. I really don't. (And I didn't read Randy's post as crying about something you said. JMHO.)
> 
> I don't remember reading these jobs in your posts before._"In answer to your question, I have said it to many times Connie. This will be the last time" _..... if you have "said it too many times," well, I missed it.
> 
> ...


Don't have to agree Connie. They say the proof is in the pudding. I pick my dogs the way I do for a reason. They do well at multiple tasks in multiple venues Everyone else can pick em the way they want to. That is the beauty of it. I have had more dogs and pups than most. I can put my finger on the best dogs at 4 to 4 1/2 weeks. Like I promised with the video, I will show the pups tearing up a rag just for kicks. According to Thomas I guess there is a right and a wrong way to even let pups have a rag. LOL I have no intention on place doing sport with my dogs so the only video forthcoming with a rag will be when I take the time to shoot a squirrel and I will show you how fast they leave that rag for something real. I just can't get into the belief a good dog has to have ball and rag drive because any pup will do it if they are conditioned.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Don't have to agree Connie. They say the proof is in the pudding.


It was a comment on terminology. No more, no less.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> It was a comment on terminology. No more, no less.


 
since you mention terminology, how about nerve bag?


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> at 7 months, Don can tell that the dog is breeding quality...
> 
> I am also sure that the hip status is easily discernible at 7 months using the naked eye.....if you are Don...
> 
> mind boggling...


Its not the naked eye. Its 30-40 mile runs through the Sierra Nevada mountains. That is a lot for a 7 month old thinking about it; especially since the growth plates haven't closed. But ready to breed doesn't mean he's bred them before testing their qualities in other areas. Gotta be careful and not leap to conclusions even though he seemed a tad frustrated about having to wait for Griff to kick into gear. 

But see that's another subject. What is his breed worthy test for his dogs. Anything other than socially dominant with other dogs. If its socially dominant with another dog that makes it able to work in all areas? At what age do you decide it meets the socially dominant standard and after examining what dog-to-dog type interactions? 

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I just can't get into the belief a good dog has to have ball and rag drive because any pup will do it if they are conditioned.


No they won't. And just to help you out, most puppies will bite a few times. But before you say it can be conditioned, you have to raise one an demonstrate that rag/toy/object drive even into adulthood. It also has to be sustained drive for the object, not the type that exhaust quickly. 

T


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

I dont worry about toy drive in my sheepdogs. I want them to maintain a sustained drive for working sheep. My best dog dog will work sheep till he drops. He likes his tug and is pretty full on with for agility it but it is nowhere near as sustained as his interest in sheep. That is instinct, I would think. He would drop his tug in a heartbeat if presented with sheep.

On the subject of confidence and social dominance. Not sure exactly what you mean. 

My BC is an extremely confident dog in that he is not easily put off anything and is pretty gregarious and unaffected by different environments but I wouldnt call him socially dominant, in that he yields to my top matriarch - a cattle dog bitch although he could take her out if he chose as she is an old dog now. She would have outgunned him once, but he still chooses to yield to her unless she challenges him for his food. He certainly doesnt challenge her for the top job although he is no push over.

He does have a running power struggle with my other male who is less confident in external situations but is very confident in their power struggle and often comes out on top. 

Neither of them will challenge my top bitch although they both could. But he is really is a very confident dog and defintely not nervy in unexpected situations.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> No they won't. And just to help you out, most puppies will bite a few times. But before you say it can be conditioned, you have to raise one an demonstrate that rag/toy/object drive even into adulthood. It also has to be sustained drive for the object, not the type that exhaust quickly.
> 
> T


T is absolutely right doesnt matter how much you condition some just wont do it or for any length of time.I would give up T, Don knows how to pick a dog just like he knows how to diagnose Parvo from just looking and even a vet said they couldnt do that.I was absolutely amazed how quick he dropped that.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Sara Waters said:


> I dont worry about toy drive in my sheepdogs. I want them to maintain a sustained drive for working sheep. My best dog dog will work sheep till he drops. He likes his tug and is pretty full on with for agility it but it is nowhere near as sustained as his interest in sheep. That is instinct, I would think. He would drop his tug in a heartbeat if presented with sheep.
> 
> On the subject of confidence and social dominance. Not sure exactly what you mean.
> 
> ...


Sara,

There's a lot of topics going on in this thread. Like you, I've trained dogs on stock and for the most part they dont have a lot of rag/toy/object drive. Bouviers aren't known for it either. My first bouv didn't develop any interest in toys until he was 8 or 9 although his schutzhund helper was able to get him working for the object in prey. My second bouv is more prey drive and will do toys some but not at the level that protection sport trainers find useful. Her prey with live animals is PITA. I kinda think that if I had worked with it as a young dog, she would have it but from the time she was 8 weeks old, she's worked livestock and stock trumps toys. She'll be 8 this year and will play tug for a bit. I'm convinced she would rather bite flesh. A lot of times when I'm playing with her she will drop the toy and would rather body slam or bite on the body. Usually, my puppies start out playing with toys but I don't really play toys with them and eventually their interest in them fades. My GSDs have had good toy/object drive and I think that is something that is in them. A couple were OCD retrievers. The corgis and the bouvs can care less and especially after they start working stock. I "said" I was going to raise my puppies with toys because it is something to use in reward based training but I find that I don't have toy drive. I get pretty bored with it. Just had Rhemy out playing with him and he was pretty jazzed. On the days I don't have him on stock, his drive is pretty strong. On stock days, he's not that interested in toys afterwards. I was trying to think about the dogs I've selected or bought from other people and I can't remember how they were with their littermates. Its not something I look at. I look at people, environment, and stock confidence. Livestock involves instinct so we can have what others call a medium general drive dog off stock and one that has tons of drive on stock. Rhemy is like that--a definite off switch. Khyndra is drivey on and off stock. Thinking about my dogs and just what has been discussed on this forum, I don't think you can condition the level of toy/object drives that sport/LE/Military use in training dogs. I think it has to be something you breed and select for. People work to build object drive in other breeds that aren't known for strong object drive but I don't think it gets to the level that's desired. 

As for the social dominant dog thing, I think that's something that Don uses for his pretty much closed gene pool of dogs and males. I'm not sure what his selection criteria is for the females. 


T


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

T, Sara said


> On the subject of confidence and social dominance. Not sure exactly what you mean


Why don't you do something besides talk and explain social dominant dogs to Sara with some detail....tell her from your experience how they really act. How about the rest of you.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> How about the rest of you.


Don, why dont YOU explain what YOU mean by social dominance..since you are mostly the one that baffles everyone here, with your eccentric views on things.

Last I heard, social dominance is NOT a trait that is desirable for therapy dogs, or service dogs...

But that is going by the generally accepted terminology, not how it is defined on Planet Don...that I am sure of...


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Me explain social dominance? Naw. Terrasita knows all about it. As a mater of fact, I am guessing she has been reading up on it this morning on google just so she could explain it. Let's just sit back and let her take her shot. I will explain it to Sara in a PM. You might want to look it up so you can see where T gets her info.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Me explain social dominance? Naw. Terrasita knows all about it. As a mater of fact, I am guessing she has been reading up on it this morning on google just so she could explain it. Let's just sit back and let her take her shot. I will explain it to Sara in a PM. You might want to look it up so you can see where T gets her info.


Don,

You can't explain "social dominance" but your post is a classic example of AVOIDANCE ROTFLMAO


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Me explain social dominance? Naw. Terrasita knows all about it. As a mater of fact, I am guessing she has been reading up on it this morning on google just so she could explain it. Let's just sit back and let her take her shot. I will explain it to Sara in a PM. You might want to look it up so you can see where T gets her info.


great Don, thanks...2 questions..might give a glimpse into where you are coming from....

are you of the opinion that this social dominance applies only within the canine species, or that it is also applicable in canine-human relationships? Both of these views are well argued, which on do you believe?

When you say your dogs are socially dominant and the most confident dogs on 4 legs, are you talking about confidence in interacting with other dogs, or people, or in all circumstances? or what?


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

And in a litter of puppies, at what age do you [Don] decide that they are social dominants and based on what behavior. What about the females, if you don't like social dominant females because they don't reproduce, are the "feminine" females that you keep unstable? Or do you have some other selection criteria for females.

You've said for a couple of years now what you think a social dominant male is and how he affects other dogs. You next say that how socially dominant the dog is or whether the dogs that are bullies leave him a alone relates to how stable the dog is. Finally, in this thread, you've said that the socially dominant male is the most confident dog on 4 legs. 

So, I think its your definitions of social dominant, stable and confident that Sara needs, not mine.

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Me explain social dominance? Naw. Terrasita knows all about it. As a mater of fact, I am guessing she has been reading up on it this morning on google just so she could explain it. Let's just sit back and let her take her shot. I will explain it to Sara in a PM. You might want to look it up so you can see where T gets her info.


No Don, I wouldn't take the time to google it. I don't think it can mean the same thing to all people, especially where you are concerned. That's the problem with terms. So your definitions rule on this one: social dominant, stable, confident?

T


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

That is twice in one thread you have crawfished T. Explain "your" version of social dominance to Sarah, because you are convinced I am wrong.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> great Don, thanks...2 questions..might give a glimpse into where you are coming from....
> 
> are you of the opinion that this social dominance applies only within the canine species, or that it is also applicable in canine-human relationships? Both of these views are well argued, which on do you believe?
> 
> When you say your dogs are socially dominant and the most confident dogs on 4 legs, are you talking about confidence in interacting with other dogs, or people, or in all circumstances? or what?


Good question Joby. Social dominate/social aggresive dogs ave been discussed in detail here. Mostly by LE with real dogs rather than sport dogs. I think Howard Knauf is one of the folks in those discussions. Maybe he will explain the subtle differences are to you. Most people like T and Thomas have probably never had the good fortune to be around dogs that are truly social dominate.

I will say that T has not got the experience to undrstand the differences in SD to understand that some dogs that are bred for certain venues can apply that dominance to people also. Others, like mine, do not....as a general rule.

Any way maybe Howard would like to waste his time trying to explain it to you folks. If you can handle them(the once that have a tendency to try to dominate people) they are the coolest and easiest dogs to train, but, you got to understand them to work with them. Most people today have never been arouind them and wouldn't recognize it if they were.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Good question Joby. Social dominate/social aggresive dogs ave been discussed in detail here. Mostly by LE with real dogs rather than sport dogs. I think Howard Knauf is one of the folks in those discussions. Maybe he will explain the subtle differences are to you. Most people like T and Thomas have probably never had the good fortune to be around dogs that are truly social dominate.
> 
> I will say that T has not got the experience to undrstand the differences in SD to understand that some dogs that are bred for certain venues can apply that dominance to people also. Others, like mine, do not....as a general rule.
> 
> Any way maybe Howard would like to waste his time trying to explain it to you folks. If you can handle them(the once that have a tendency to try to dominate people) they are the coolest and easiest dogs to train, but, you got to understand them to work with them. Most people today have never been arouind them and wouldn't recognize it if they were.


Don. I was asking what YOUR view is, I do not need it explained to me, just need explained as to what YOU think. I am not quite sure that Howard would say his views are the same as yours on this subject, but maybe he will weigh in..

Thanks though for the reply.

what about this?

_When you say your dogs are socially dominant and the most confident dogs on 4 legs, are you talking about confidence in interacting with other dogs, or people, or in all circumstances? or what?_


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

_"Social dominate/social aggresive dogs ave been discussed in detail here. Mostly by LE ..... "
_



What does social dominance mean to you, though? You used the term here. 

I know that some use it only within the species and some others do see it as existing between two species.

It's much easier to have a discussion if we define a term when we bring it up -- so everyone can use that definition (or say that they are not).



eta
Ah. I was typing while Joby was posting.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> That is twice in one thread you have crawfished T. Explain "your" version of social dominance to Sarah, because you are convinced I am wrong.


Convinced you are wrong on your definition of socially dominant? Really? When did I say that. And since when did you care what someone thought regarding your opinions. Why should what I think have anything to do with you explaining your definitions/terms especially since you say they apply to your dogs. If Sara and I are discussing stock dogs, whether the dog is socially dominant amongst other dogs would NEVER come up so by all means, explain away.

T


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

In regards to the original post...Don what are the goals for your breeding program? What tests have you used to evaluate your program? Do you follow the breedings as to evaluate health, temperament and success in workability ( hunting?)? 

Of course, if you are just breeding for pet then I guess none of my questiosn really matter, right?

Would a socially dominant dog run from a threat?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Convinced you are wrong on your definition of socially dominant? Really? When did I say that. And since when did you care what someone thought regarding your opinions. Why should what I think have anything to do with you explaining your definitions/terms especially since you say they apply to your dogs. If Sara and I are discussing stock dogs, whether the dog is socially dominant amongst other dogs would NEVER come up so by all means, explain away.
> 
> T


T, I don't care what you think, but, since you find it necessary to carry on so about how I pick my pups, I would be really curious to know what you have to base your opinions on. 

T, do you by chance remember our first exchanges in years past. All you had to disagree with me then was BS about having a friend that breeds dogs that says I am wrong. I used to get on you then about it was always a friend of a friend that knows someone. LOL You quit doing that but in this short time you seemed to have becom quite the expert on all kinds of dogs, breeding, how to pick breeding stock and everything in between. How did you do that? Nobody here really care what you know as long as you disagree with me. Nobody cares if Joby can tell when his dogs are actually pregnant or if lap dogs run up and attack his dogs three times a week. 

So far, the only viable post on this thread is Mike Vallente's. It was a discussion for two posts, after that you posted and the rest of the pseudo experts, like yourself packed up for moral support. If you had any idea what you are talking about, you would gladly explain it to Sarah simply because you love for people to "think" you know everything. Just explain your version of SD. I don't think you have a clue personally.


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## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

Don...this title of YOUR thread is "Differences I see". All people are asking you to do is explain to them in more detail these "Differences" that you see. Golden opportunity for you Don.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> T, I don't care what you think, but, since you find it necessary to carry on so about how I pick my pups, I would be really curious to know what you have to base your opinions on.
> 
> T, do you by chance remember our first exchanges in years past. All you had to disagree with me then was BS about having a friend that breeds dogs that says I am wrong. I used to get on you then about it was always a friend of a friend that knows someone. LOL You quit doing that but in this short time you seemed to have becom quite the expert on all kinds of dogs, breeding, how to pick breeding stock and everything in between. How did you do that? Nobody here really care what you know as long as you disagree with me. Nobody cares if Joby can tell when his dogs are actually pregnant or if lap dogs run up and attack his dogs three times a week.
> 
> So far, the only viable post on this thread is Mike Vallente's. It was a discussion for two posts, after that you posted and the rest of the pseudo experts, like yourself packed up for moral support. If you had any idea what you are talking about, you would gladly explain it to Sarah simply because you love for people to "think" you know everything. Just explain your version of SD. I don't think you have a clue personally.


I think you are confused and can't keep whos who straight. Don, you are getting way off course on this one. You want to make this about me instead of just explaining your terms to the people who have expressed interest. As for others posting, I think that's more about you than me. The socially dominant dog is your area of expertise. I never claimed to know anything about them. I think I've been pretty clear in saying that I don't pay much attention to dog-to-dog interactions in selecting a dog. So for the people who are interested in what you mean by it and whether it should be added to their selection criteria, I think you are the best person to explain it.

T


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I think you are confused and can't keep whos who straight. Don, you are getting way off course on this one. You want to make this about me instead of just explaining your terms to the people who have expressed interest. As for others posting, I think that's more about you than me. The socially dominant dog is your area of expertise. I never claimed to know anything about them. I think I've been pretty clear in saying that I don't pay much attention to dog-to-dog interactions in selecting a dog. So for the people who are interested in what you mean by it and whether it should be added to their selection criteria, I think you are the best person to explain it.
> 
> T


'You only wished I had you confused with someone else T.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Skip Morgart said:


> Don...this title of YOUR thread is "Differences I see". All people are asking you to do is explain to them in more detail these "Differences" that you see. Golden opportunity for you Don.


I stated the differences I saw. Anything past that would be a waste of time. Discussion is long since left and it is best to follow the KISS rule. I will explain it to Sarah. Privately since T can't back up her opinions.


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## kenneth roth (Jul 29, 2010)

Don it seems these pups are darker black and pigmit then your other dogs,griff brought in the darker colloring?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

kenneth roth said:


> Don it seems these pups are darker black and pigmit then your other dogs,griff brought in the darker colloring?


No Ken actually Griff has more grey grizzeling, but, airedale pups are born all black and look just like dobe and rottie pups with the tan eyebrows. The heads are the first to change and then the legs. There is a big variance in how far down on the leg the black goes as adults.


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## kenneth roth (Jul 29, 2010)

Don Turnipseed said:


> No Ken actually Griff has more grey grizzeling, but, airedale pups are born all black and look just like dobe and rottie pups with the tan eyebrows. The heads are the first to change and then the legs. There is a big variance in how far down on the leg the black goes as adults.


the black looks darker black to me :roll:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Don, you said this was a discussion for two posts. If you feel it should remain a post between two people then your best bet would be to take it to a PM if you don't want others involved. 
Your also welcome to add any member of the WDF to your Ignore list then you wont have to read anything from anyone whose opinion means nothing to you.


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

Just tuning back in after a few days repast (gotta learn to stop starting something I don't have the time to finish).
No Don, I haven't picked apart the various where's, there's or whatevers you've gone through in the last couple of months. So now you accuse me of whinning?

Okay you answered my question I asked about breeding something more than a single purpose dog ( abiet even if your answer was indirectly). And let's face it, while you may have bred those dogs, you did not have a hand in TRAINING those dogs. I'm still wondering why you have such a hard line against the sporting class? After all, aren't all trained dog generally 'single purpose' ?

So whats your beef?


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## Edward Weiss (Sep 19, 2011)

Some of Griffs relatives in last October 2011breed championship.

http://www.airedale-kft.de/Ergebnisdienst/KLSP/KLSP11/klsp11.html


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Thanks Ed! Nice to see that many Dales at one event.


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