# Different S&R (FEMA) dogs by region?



## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

Had a member tell me labs seem to be the most prevalent, but that you see other breeds around, I would have thought mals would be dominant?


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

I would say that by shear numbers, Labs are more popular for now. But they are very quickly getting replaced by Malis. I have sold about 10 malis this year alone to USAR folks who's last dog was a Lab. Some groups wont allow Malis (so I have been told by handlers in those groups) 
I am sure their are some very nice Labs out there, but by far the best dogs I have seen on rubble were Malis. We can all tell stories about a handler we know who has a super Lab, but in the big picture, like with about anything else.......a good Mali will always be better.


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

they only allow dept owned labs on my city's Fema team


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Labs are by far the most prevalent breed in FEMA USAR.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Malis are becoming the breed of replacement from what I see and talk with people, most people are replacing floppy ears with the mali and occasional pointy ears, but mostly malis for there agility and longevity on the job site time. Simple fact that the mali will work longer than 90% of a gsd or lab although some people will always stick with the labs. Most people that stick with the labs now these days are just not able to deal with or don't want to deal with the mali behavior or have been handed down a lab from a previous handler.:wink:


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

One major reason the Malinois isn't used as much as most would want them to be is the liability....or assumed liability. For the most part, these dogs are not purchased as puppies and a typical malinois for the most part probably had some patrol/bitework training and maybe a washout, who knows. The fact of the matter, whether we like it or not, its politics, the accidental bite is not something most will accept. I think its weak training, piss poor Leadership and just not enough education.

Look at the Military SSD/IDD and all the other "off leash" detection dogs......they have all went to the sporting breed (Non-aggressive trained) floppy eared dog! 

Of course some agencies and/or departments will may be different, but for the most part, that is how I see it....


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## Keith Earle (Mar 27, 2006)

When I was at katrina for 10 days about 90% of all dogs there where NOT mals , a few teams did have them ,


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Harry Keely said:


> Malis are becoming the breed of replacement from what I see and talk with people, most people are replacing floppy ears with the mali and occasional pointy ears, but mostly malis for there agility and longevity on the job site time.


I don't see this happening really. IMO, Labs are and will always be the tool of choice for most FEMA USAR canine handlers. Labs are just as agile and have just as much "longevity" as any other breed used in USAR work. 



> Simple fact that the mali will work longer than 90% of a gsd or lab although some people will always stick with the labs.


I don't agree with this, and I own and work both breeds in USAR.



> Most people that stick with the labs now these days are just not able to deal with or don't want to deal with the mali behavior or have been handed down a lab from a previous handler.:wink:


You are right about dealing with the Mali behavior part. Net on net, Labs are better "dual purpose" dogs (meaning they can be easy house dogs and good working dogs) for FEMA USAR. However, the vast majority of the handlers who "stick with the labs now these days" do so because they are a great dog for the job. It is also much easier to purchase an already trained USAR Lab from a broker/trainer than it is to find a pointy-eared dog with the same skills.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Konnie Hein said:


> I don't see this happening really. IMO, Labs are and will always be the tool of choice for most FEMA USAR canine handlers. Labs are just as agile and have just as much "longevity" as any other breed used in USAR work.
> 
> I don't agree with this, and I own and work both breeds in USAR.
> 
> You are right about dealing with the Mali behavior part. Net on net, Labs are better "dual purpose" dogs (meaning they can be easy house dogs and good working dogs) for FEMA USAR. However, the vast majority of the handlers who "stick with the labs now these days" do so because they are a great dog for the job. It is also much easier to purchase an already trained USAR Lab from a broker/trainer than it is to find a pointy-eared dog with the same skills.


Agree but like Mike said and I still believe there are alot of people swapping over to the pointy ear dogs as least in my area and other areas I guess are to, Not saying that labs arent good but the mali and dutchie are starting to show in SAR work slowly but surely as they are with all other venues of sport and real world application, this is what I meant to say earlier sorry if it was worded not totally clear of my thoughts.JMO


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Harry Keely said:


> Agree but like Mike said and I still believe there are alot of people swapping over to the pointy ear dogs as least in my area and other areas I guess are to, Not saying that labs arent good but the mali and dutchie are starting to show in SAR work slowly but surely as they are with all other venues of sport and real world application, this is what I meant to say earlier sorry if it was worded not totally clear of my thoughts.JMO


 
Not agreeing or disagreeing, but the demand for a good dog is alot more now than it ever has, but for every good lab I find, I could find 25+ herders that will do the job....


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

My experiences are the same as Konnie's. While I may see the occasional pointy eared dog, Labs are, without question, the breed of choice. 

Jody said: "Not agreeing or disagreeing, but the demand for a good dog is alot more now than it ever has, but for every good lab I find, I could find 25+ herders that will do the job...."

Your not looking in the right places. ha ha

DFrost


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Hey David, please tell us where to look then. I will have to agree with Jody on this one. Last year I bought and sold about 20 Labs here in total, and tested a ton more that were just not up to par. I usually only buy field trial dogs that are "too crazy" for hunting as these are the ones that I have seen who seam to work the best for us, but even those fall way short of a Mali in most areas. 
Even with US Customs, who has / had a large Lab breeding program, and they only need detector dogs, yet they still have not had one Lab pass there selection test in the last year, and they have tested many. 
I do like the Lab breed, and they are great for manyl PDs with a small budget, and many USAR handlers who simply are not skilled enough to handle a real high drive Mali. But if we are real honest I think everyone can agree that in most cases the average Lab of today is not of the same quality as the average Mali in terms of drive, intensity, and agility.
I have a very good friend who is a bird dog breeder and top level field trial competitor, and he will tell you that the best dogs he sees competing in field trial events still fall short of most of the Malis he has seen at my place.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

FEMA Certified Dogs 2010
1. Labs: 56.5%
2. German Shepherds: 10.2%
3. Golden Retrievers: 9.8%
4. Border Collie: 9.3%
5. Malinois: 6.1%

This is about the same as it was in 2008 - slight changes in %, but not enough to be significant. Labs were still by far and above the most common dog in FEMA USAR. 

There's a kennel in Maine (Maranatha) who breeds, raises, trains and sells Labs for USAR. Last I heard, she couldn't keep up with the requests for her USAR-trained dogs. Perhaps that would be a place to look if you want a Lab for detection.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Konnie Hein said:


> FEMA Certified Dogs 2010
> 1. Labs: 56.5%
> 2. German Shepherds: 10.2%
> 3. Golden Retrievers: 9.8%
> ...


Actually , that lady has called me looking for Malinois puppies to use for USAR.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

mike suttle said:


> Actually , that lady has called me looking for Malinois puppies to use for USAR.


I know. I referred her to you.

However, her interest in Mal pups is not to replace the Labs or because she thinks they will do a better job. She simply has had a few requests here and there from people who are interested in purchasing a trained, pointy-eared dog from her. The success of her Labradors in the FEMA system is what attracted their attention.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

I am not saying that a good lab cant do the work, in fact as you pointed out, about 50% of the dogs that are certified in USAR are Labs, but I would be willing to bet that of the 6% of the USAR dogs who are Malinois, they would be in the top % of all the dogs in the sytem in terms of drive, intensity, and agility. 
Like I said, I really like Labs, but I also know that the best Labs on the planet are not as fast, agile, and driven as the best Malinois. 
For example, I had a USAR lady here last year selecting a new dog for USAR. Her current USAR dog was a Lab and she had him here with her. Her certified USAR Lab could not climb on 1/2 of the shit that she was testing my 12 month old green Malinois on. She looked at about 10 Malinois here over two days and she said......."WOW, these are all better than my certified dog"
Now that was just one Lab, in a kennel full of Malinois, but that is a pretty normal reaction that I get from Lab people who come here to look at good Malinois.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

In my avalanche profile, Labs are by far the most popular and I really doubt that will change any time soon. 

We generally like to take avalanche workers and turn them into dog handlers as opposed to taking dog people and turning them into avalanche workers. The handler skills are more difficult to aquire than the dog skills (to a workable level).

Labs are just plain easier for inexperienced people to handle and integrate into their lives.

Most in my profile bring their dogs to work as part of their job as well. There are going to be strangers reaching, poking, barking at, calling, skiing past at high speeds and such things on any given day. It is a pain to have a dog on leash when you are on skis. Generally speaking the labs have enough retrieve and hunt drive to do the search work, but are just easier with the public interface. They also have less of the chase/prey issues that can be a problem in my venue on a day to day basis without proper training.

Now of course a mal can fit into this environment, but it is going to take someone that knows something about dogs, training, management and so on, more than for your average lab.

Some of my collegues that have seen my new mal pup are kind of freaked out by the intensity. No matter how well she ends up searching...they just wouldn't want one or be comfortable with one.

Because we have some connection and mentorship with the RCMP dog program, we do have an assortment of pointy eared dogs in our midst in the avi profile in Western Canada. Mostly GDS though, and mostly with experienced (not first time handlers). 

If you look at ski resort avalanche dog programs in the USA, you would be hard pressed to find anything but floppy eared dogs and the odd BC.


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## Kim Gilmore (Feb 18, 2008)

I attended an IRO convention in the Canary Islands a few years ago and asked my EU counterparts why more Dutch/Belgians (of any color/coat type) not being used in urban rescue scenario's. The collective answer was, by both civilians and military, that the Dutch/Belgians dogs were too reactive in most cases. Easy to overstimulate in an environment heavy with aural, olfactory and visual stimuli. They tend to lean more toward the hunting breeds as well (Labs, English Cockers, Springers, Flatcoats) as they aren't as "hard wired" as the Dutchies/Belgians.

Sad and sorry what we have made of a lot of the more compact hunting breeds in the US. Springers/English Cockers in the EU are tough, hard working moderate sized dogs and the Flatties were poetry in motion.

Make no mistake that they DO prefer the Dutch & Belgian lines in other disciplines, but for USAR type response, tend to lean another direction most of the time.

Kim Gilmore


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## Kim Gilmore (Feb 18, 2008)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> In my avalanche profile, Labs are by far the most popular and I really doubt that will change any time soon.
> 
> Labs are just plain easier for inexperienced people to handle and integrate into their lives.
> <snip>
> ...


I agree with you Jennifer. Also take into account public perception of pointy vs floppy eared dogs. Avy dogs can be in the public spotlight quite a bit when on shift and for some reason, an intense Belgian seems to make Joe Public a lot more nervous than a big goofy Lab or Golden.

In terms of the prey drive...yeah, life isn't complete until you have found yourself swinging in a chairlift 60' above ground with skiers zipping beneath you while your Belgian's head is just about ready to snap off tracking them as pupils begin to dilate and glaze over...

Kim Gilmore


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

It wouild seem to me that if there is no one that can handle the Mals in USAR, then they are not the best choice in the long run.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Mike said.


> I have a very good friend who is a bird dog breeder and top level field trial competitor, and he will tell you that the best dogs he sees competing in field trial events still fall short of most of the Malis he has seen at my place.


Mike, are you saying that any of your mals could beat the top bird dogs on birds in a field trial? Or are they falling down in other ways aside from the work.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Mike said.
> 
> 
> Mike, are you saying that any of your mals could beat the top bird dogs on birds in a field trial? Or are they falling down in other ways aside from the work.


he was just refering to intensity, drive, and agility, not bird work in the field of course.
Of course his Labs will work circles around any Mali from a duck blind, or retrieving in the water.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

mike suttle said:


> he was just refering to intensity, drive, and agility, not bird work in the field of course.
> Of course his Labs will work circles around any Mali from a duck blind, or retrieving in the water.


I have to wonder then, if that super high drive is what is really needed. Take the English pointers in top field trials for instance. They are the hoigh drive dogs in the bird world, fast racey, so wound up they quiver many times. got to follow them on horseback. As imptressed as people are watching these athletes, anyone can take a calm, cool, collected dog over the same field, and find all kinds of birds they missed. Got to wonder if being that strung out is going to be best for the job.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Kim Gilmore said:


> In terms of the prey drive...yeah, life isn't complete until you have found yourself swinging in a chairlift 60' above ground with skiers zipping beneath you while your Belgian's head is just about ready to snap off tracking them as pupils begin to dilate and glaze over...
> 
> Kim Gilmore


Good grief I am going through this right now...add in some angry weasle noises to your description and you have got it LOL.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I have to wonder then, if that super high drive is what is really needed. Take the English pointers in top field trials for instance. They are the hoigh drive dogs in the bird world, fast racey, so wound up they quiver many times. got to follow them on horseback. As imptressed as people are watching these athletes, anyone can take a calm, cool, collected dog over the same field, and find all kinds of birds they missed. Got to wonder if being that strung out is going to be best for the job.



I think you are bringing up a good point, Don.

More is not always better, and enough is sometimes more manageable, and easier to train, make mistakes and live with. 

Does the dog accomplish the mission?


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> If you look at ski resort avalanche dog programs in the USA, you would be hard pressed to find anything but floppy eared dogs and the odd BC.


I was just thinking that there is another contributing factor to this. In many (not all) of the big USA ski resort programs the resort owns the dog and the dog has multiple handlers. Easier to transfer a lab between handlers than a malinois.

In Canada we are on a one dog one handler system so that makes it easier to pick a pointy eared dog. Of course we practice having other people taking a dog to a scene and even getting them searching until the handler can arrive, but that is different than going home with different people, being rewarded/trained by different people, being corrected by different people and so on.


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## Andrew Hyle (Dec 19, 2010)

The nearest SAR group here in my area is a bloodhound group.


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## Melody Greba (Oct 4, 2007)

There are more labs in FEMA K9 because they work for a wider range of handlers. 
Labs are easily suitable for a garden variety of handlers/owners. Mals can be quirky, bad habits set in stone and not easily changed so trainers must be better than average, and too intense for some people. 
Some FEMA handlers do not want a dog with "sleeve" type intensity. Many have little or no protection sport background and are afraid of it or turned off by it. 
Mals are suitable for a shorter range of handlers in the venue than labs. 

Either breed is quite suitable in disaster work as long as it is well selected.


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