# Skittish Pup



## Alicia Mertz

Hello again everyone,

I've been absent for a while - lurking a bit, but no posts. I absolutely ADORE this board, but aside from sharing cute anecdotes, I don't feel as though I have much to contribute to the "serious" discussions...so I mostly just absorb. 

Lately, though, I've become increasingly concerned about Dominic, our 10 (almost 11) month old. He has, despite our concerns, developed beautifully...physically. Mentally, however, it seems he is a few bricks short of a full load.

It's funny...I NEVER socialized Jaeger in the way most people think of socialization. Being a young, single girl in a (very) rough city, I wanted a big, protective dog. He went a lot of places with me - moved around a lot - but I never let strange people pet him or play with him; aside from one other puppy, he was never allowed to socialize with other dogs; and really, comparatively speaking, he didn't "see" a whole lot at a young age, aside from the walls of my apartment. Yet he is very stable around other dogs and strangers (with the exception of dominant men or those people that I tell him NOT to be okay with). Nothing rattles him. NOTHING scares him. Not to say he isn't sharp and doesn't have a mind of his own, but I trust him.

Dominic was exactly the opposite. Since our intention was for him to be a dual purpose dog - sport and service - we socialized the hell out of him from 9 weeks on. He has been EVERYWHERE from a Braves baseball game to the NYC subway to a charter bus on the way to a local festival. He's seen dogs galore and even more people (although we do limit the number of people that we allow to approach him, simply because we don't want him dragging us up to strangers looking for attention); but he's a chicken sh.... He's nervous in crowds. He'll bristle and jump back from other dogs, growling or barking the whole time. He's ALWAYS been skittish around strangers. And anything new...a bulldozer at the back of our community...cats at the vet's office...scares him to DEATH.

Having Jaeger with him helps a bit. He'll act a _little_ more bold when "brother" is backing him up... But not much.

Being from completely different lines, I figured maybe Dominic was just one of those dogs who was going to take longer to mature, so I wasn't too concerned until this past weekend.

Dom has developed an irrational fear of the vacuum cleaner. The first few times we ran it around him, he was fine. Then, all of a sudden, he became terrified. I don't mean, "Ahhh, it's going to get me!! ::runs away::" I mean, if there was a 1,000 cliff to jump off of, he'd do it. The first time his fear became evident, I was bringing him back inside from going potty (this was months ago) and he just started flipping out. Pulling backwards, throwing himself on the ground, screaming...he even pulled me off our front steps. I finally had to pick him up and carry him into the house.

Since then, it hasn't gotten any better; he's just gotten harder to handle. You absolutely cannot run the vacuum with him in the house, and if you put him outside while you run it, half the time he won't come back in.

This past weekend, we finally moved his cage from our bedroom down to the "dog room". Figured at almost 11 months old, he's old enough to sleep with the "big boys". It's really just a storage room where Jaeger and Bruno's cages are set up. It also happens to be the room where the vacuum "lives"...in the closet. Behind a closed door. NOT RUNNING.

Needless to say, I was flat on my face in the hall Saturday night with my hand bent backwards, stuck in Dom's collar. Once we FINALLY tricked him into coming back inside (which took about 45 minutes because he panicked as soon as he realized that his cage was in that room), it took me 30 minutes to get him down the 15' hall. He was jumping straight up in the air and crashing down and thrashing around. Have you ever seen the cartoons of cats with their feet spread, claws out, gripping onto door frames or bathtubs so that you can't put them in? That was him. Like I said, he pulled me over 2 or 3 times and proceeded to drag me to the other end of the house. I finally had to use his leash as a choke collar, and even then, he damn near passed out before I could get him down there.

Sunday and Monday were not much better.

What is wrong with him? What could cause so much senseless fear in a well-socialized, supposedly well-bred puppy, let alone such TERROR? With every passing day, I'm more and more certain that he's NOT going to be bred...no way, no how. I can see a bit of uncertainty going away with maturity, but not this. Do you think he was traumatized somehow in the 9 weeks before we got him? Are his bloodlines bogus? Or would a cross of Cak and Dargo vd Thuringer Kronjuwelen really be that unstable?

HELP ME!! I honestly don't know what to do with him.


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## Woody Taylor

Yikes, this sucks. What kind of structured training have you been doing with him?


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## Andres Martin

If you're thinking sport and service...this probably won't be the dog for you.


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## Mike Schoonbrood

He is what he is, you've done all the socialization you can with him n something in his head just decided it's time to act like a sissy. Here's my advice, without seeing the dog myself I can only go on how I would deal with my own dogs under those circumstances.

Firstly, I wouldn't worry about it too much, spend the next 6 months just completely ignoring his stupidity and following the advice in #2, don't react to it negatively even if it makes you mad, and I know sissy irrational dog behaviors make me mad :lol: Just don't react to him, lift up on the choker as per #2 n be very calm about it.

Secondly, I would buy a nylon choker like a dominant dog collar or something of that nature n I would walk him around the things he's scared of, not right up close at first, take him to the distance that first makes him anxious, when he starts acting stupid or frantic, just calmly lift up on the choker n tell him "stop it, sit" n make him sit... the second he stops acting like a sissy, immediately release the tension on the choker.... to the dog it's like "agh!! vacuum cleaner! agh!! crap! I'm acting stupid n now I can't breathe! *stop* whew, wow, I stopped panicking n now I feel so much better... maybe that's what mommy wants, just for me to sit here n deal with it". The more you let a dog practice this stupid behavior the more he thinks it's acceptable to do so and it becomes a bad habbit. I see alot of success using the choker, some dogs will fight it at first because they're so panicked, help him sit down n guide him to calmness, the second they do calm down n you release it they finally understand that being in a frenzy makes things alot worse. He needs to learn to deal with it and face it instead of acting stupid, "just be calm n sit here, stupid".

Just my $.02


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## Alicia Mertz

Yeah, it does, Woody.

We started right away with him on some basic obedience. Just a couple minutes a night working on hier, sitz, platz, "look", and "wait". Confidence building exercises, too, like overcoming strange obstacles or odd footing. Nothing too daunting, just simple things like wading into water, crossing funky bridges on playground equipment, something akin to a small dogwalk... Things to try and instill both trust in us and trust in his surroundings. Nothing nearly as crazy as Greg Long's exercises... :lol: :wink: He was never very fond of that stuff, either, though. He'd do them for a food or tug reward, but never happily like Jaeger.

After a couple months we progressed to what I consider "baby bite work" - going after a toy, having to grip it solidly and hold on for the "win", and learning to aus and sitz either on command or when the toy stops "fighting back". Now that...that he LOVES.

We've also taken him to two local SchH clubs just to get acclimated. Doesn't show much interest. Mostly just nervous.


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## Greg Long

I have seen pups with similar issues come around...but this dog needs alot of work NOW.Most of the ones I saw come out of it were younger.

I have had experience with some the same bloodlines as this dog.I do see a little of it in those dogs.

If you look at a dog's eyes when they are THAT stressed,you will see a definite glaze.They are in survival mode.I had a Dutchie pup for a little while that was the same way about anyone picking him up.Just totally go into flight/fearbite mode.He sent an older woman to the hospital for stitches.He was pretty much over it in a week.The guy that has him now says he is great.He was only 4 months old at the time though.


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## Alicia Mertz

Andres - Believe me, I'm thinking the same thing. I was actually considering rehoming him in strictly a pet home, but my partner is too "attached". Not that I don't like the little guy...

Mike - I tried "desensitizing" him to the vacuum months ago as soon as I saw the problems starting. I'd bring it into our bedroom with him and either set it close to his cage so that he'd see that it didn't move on its own and wasn't going to eat him, or I'd let him run around loose, playing with his toys in the hopes he'd realize that the damn thing wasn't possessed by a demon. No such luck. I've never tried with the nylon choker, though. Interesting idea. I'll definitely give it a shot. Thanks.

And I don't react to his freak outs, believe me. One, I've trained horses for years and, thus, have learned that if an animal is TRULY panicking, anything other than a calm reaction from you has the potential to make the situation exponentially worse. Two, Dom has never handled correction very well, so physical punishment is, for the most part, counterproductive. You should have heard me in the hall the other night when I finally put a choker on him. I was standing there watching him flip himself over repeatedly while choking and was like, "Well, if you pass out, you'll be easier to drag down the hall..." :lol: :? 

Greg - We've talked on an off about my dogs. I've talked to Jenny, too. I worked with him as much as I could when he was younger because I was concerned this would turn into a BIG issue (fear biter, etc, which I DON'T need), but obviously my methods were lacking.

Yes, I see the glaze. I fully recognize that "checked out...operating on instinct" look from other dogs I've had and the horses... What exactly do you recommend? You said "work NOW", but what can I do specifically?


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## Greg Long

Alicia,check your PMs if you havent already.


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## Alicia Mertz

Got 'em. Wrote back. Thanks, Greg.


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## melissa mims

> Mike - I tried "desensitizing" him to the vacuum months ago as soon as I saw the problems starting. I'd bring it into our bedroom with him and either set it close to his cage so that he'd see that it didn't move on its own and wasn't going to eat him, or I'd let him run around loose, playing with his toys in the hopes he'd realize that the damn thing wasn't possessed by a demon.


This isn't desensitizing, this is flooding. If not done very carefully, it can backfire. Flooding works best with people with phobias, who want to get over it. Dogs rarely want to get over their fear. It becomes a reinforcment thing. 

In desensitization, the dog sets the critical distance, not the handler.


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## Al Curbow

I agree with Mike, the dog is what he is and there's nothing that will change it's "mind", scared is scared. Hopefully he won't be a fear biter. You hear it all the time, puppies are a crapshoot,

AL


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## Woody Taylor

melissa mims said:


> Mike - I tried "desensitizing" him to the vacuum months ago as soon as I saw the problems starting. I'd bring it into our bedroom with him and either set it close to his cage so that he'd see that it didn't move on its own and wasn't going to eat him, or I'd let him run around loose, playing with his toys in the hopes he'd realize that the damn thing wasn't possessed by a demon.
> 
> 
> 
> This isn't desensitizing, this is flooding. If not done very carefully, it can backfire. Flooding works best with people with phobias, who want to get over it. Dogs rarely want to get over their fear. It becomes a reinforcment thing.
> 
> In desensitization, the dog sets the critical distance, not the handler.
Click to expand...

Good post (independent of this thread), liked that you pointed that out, didn't know that.


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## Alicia Mertz

Melissa,

Interesting post. Definitely.

I understand what you're saying, but I have to ask... If in desensitization (as opposed to "flooding") the dog sets the critical distance, will the dog ever become desensitized? Like you said, dogs don't "want to get over their fear", so is it logical to think that if allowed to progress at their own pace (in terms of distance from the "scary" object, if I'm understanding you correctly), they're ever going to get any closer?

I happen to know that if Dom was allowed to set the critical distance from the vacuum, he'd be half way cross the country by now. :lol: 

Not trying to argue, just questioning.


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## Connie Sutherland

In desensitizing, the item is brought to the closest place where no negative response is elicited. If that's in a different room, fine.

Only very gradually is it moved closer, and not close enough to elicit the negative response.

If the item can't be in sight, then a similar item is used, or part of the item, or the unplugged item, or (say, if it's the mailman) a person who kinda looks like the mailman, then a person with a mailbag, then a person with a mailbag and the mailman's blue shirt, and so on.

If the unplugged vacuum cleaner still elicits the reponse, then the hose or the attachments or the cord or a different smaller vacuum or whatever is vacuum-like but not scary is the first item. 

And so on, to the next closer item in a different room, to the next closer item in the doorway, etc.


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## Connie Sutherland

"Flooding" is putting the feared item/person with the dog regardless of the dog's response.

In flooding, the item cannot have any bad consequences at all and cannot be removed until the animal is calm.

My understanding is that flooding is best reserved for low-grade fears.


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## Alicia Mertz

Thank you for the further explanation. So you do physically move the object (or like object) closer, but not until the dog is completely comfortable with the prior distance?

My understanding of the word "desensitize" was obviously incorrect, as I understood it to be more like flooding. Sort of forcing the issue in a calm, quiet way with no negative consequences then waiting for the animal to settle.

The unplugged, completely inanimate vacuum elicits the same response as when it's running. The smell of the unplugged, completely inanimate vacuum elicits the same response. Hell, the word "vacuum" might freak him out at this point...


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## Greg Long

Al Curbow said:


> I agree with Mike, the dog is what he is and there's nothing that will change it's "mind", scared is scared. Hopefully he won't be a fear biter. You hear it all the time, puppies are a crapshoot,
> 
> AL


 This is not a hopeless issue.Too many dogs are considered unworkable that could be ok in the right hands.

Dogs dont feel fear the way humans do.its not about changing a dogs "mind".Its about pushing back thresholds.Its about working through stress and coming out stronger on the other side.


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## Connie Sutherland

Alicia Mertz said:


> .... So you do physically move the object (or like object) closer, but not until the dog is completely comfortable with the prior distance?....


In desensitizing, yes ..... not close enough (or like enough) to elicit negative response.


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## Andres Martin

> I understand what you're saying, but I have to ask... If in desensitization (as opposed to "flooding") the dog sets the critical distance, will the dog ever become desensitized? Like you said, dogs don't "want to get over their fear", so is it logical to think that if allowed to progress at their own pace (in terms of distance from the "scary" object, if I'm understanding you correctly), they're ever going to get any closer?


You can do any number of things to alleviate the issue(s)...but you can't do ANYTHING to turn a dog such as you describe into a RELIABLE working dog. Spare yourself and the dog the grief. Let him be a pet. If you need a working dog, find a new prospect. 11 months old already CLEARLY shows what the dog is. Mind you, there's a bunch of progress that can be made with a flighty dog, but if he's going to be a "pro" on the street, HE SHOULDN'T.

Not everyone's Michael Jordan, right?


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## Mike Schoonbrood

IMO it depends on the dog, if the dog is as bad as described then I wouldn't trust the dog to be a solid dog later, you can cover up these issues with training, but somewhere in that dogs head he will always have a little bit of that doubt and unsureness lingering, n it'll show up when you least want it to, under high stress. Kimbo for example, the GSD that I was testing on tile, I can get that dog to bite on tile and hold on and even look good doing it, but I still told my TD "I don't think he's right for police", because they can work the dog for 1 year addressing his slippery floor issue n not only will it be a 50/50 shot that he will get over it, but that behavior is already in his head, it's very possible that he'll revert back to that behavior under a stressful situation. You can train and train and cover up the flaw, but it's still there somewhere in his head. This is different to a dog who's just not sure about stuff, investigates and is OK with it... if a dog would rather jump off a cliff than face his fear, and something as simple as a vacuum cleaner, then the dog is what he is and that's all you can expect, even if you can make him _*look*_ good.

Ofcourse, I didn't raise that dog, so I don't know how the dog has gone thru his entire life, because certain events can make an otherwise sound dog do stupid things, n you can bring a dog thru that if you instilled the problem in him to begin with, but if it's "just there", it will always be "just there". He won't be a killer dog, but you could make him believe he is.


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## melissa mims

Sorry Alicia, had to step out for a bit. But Connie answered well (as always  ).

One thing I would add, you don't always have to bring the object closer to the dog. You can bring the dog closer to the object. Think of there being an invisible circle around your dog; the line of the circle is where the dog notices the object, the inside of the circle is where the dog reacts to the object, and the outside of the circle is where the dog ignores the object. You can play with the dog's thresholds by moving him in and out of these distances, and bringing him closer through repitition. The key is to quickly move in and out, use your body to guide him and block him, and just bringing the dog to the point of reacting , then bringing him out of the fire. Use patterns, the w-pattern is good for beginning dogs, then the s-pattern, then telescoping pattern. 

This is so much easier to show than explain!

Then you can work on counterconditioning. Once the dog is densensitized, and the fear is at a lower level, then you can use low level flooding, carefully, coupled with counterconditioning through obedience.

I have found that movement works well by reducing the anxiety the dog feels. 

I agree with you Andres, but on one point. Fearful dogs are not good pets, and pet owners should not have to deal with this level of work. For me, my pets are held to the same standard as a working dog - temperment and character are necessary. Perhaps they don't have the drive, or the structure, but stabliity is paramount. Well, exept for my project spook, Penelope.

Alicia, also talk to your vet about meds for fearful dogs. There has been some research that supports anti-depressants can calm and stablize the adrenaline response, thereby alowing the dog to learn. Dogs don't learn well if they are in fear of their life. 

There is a lot of stuff on the net about this; do a little research before you start anything. It is a long process, but you can alleviate his fears. One good outcome of this is that your handling and timing has to be exquisite, and perfect everytime, in the beginning. You will notice so much more in dogs if you work on him with this, you'll 'talk dog'!


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## melissa mims

Oh and he must not ever interact with the vacumn except when desensitizing; have someone take him for a walk when you (or SO) cleans house, and store the vacumn where he cannot even smell it. If he is allowed a response on his own, then you have to start from square one.

Just a thought, try a thrift shop, and pick up a vacumn, then chop it into tiny pieces, or scent a rag with the vacumn, and start there. Don't expect him to handle the 'beast' entire yet, baby steps.

And make a recording of the vacumn running. That way you can isolate elements of the fear, and perhaps you won't have such an extreme response.

JMO, and hope this helps!


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## Al Curbow

Sorry Greg, fear is fear. If the dog is nervous and skittish and terrified of anything new, and has an irrational fear of inanimate objects, it can't be fixed, it's just in the dogs head. Tough break Alicia, i know it sucks,

Good luck,
AL


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## Greg Long

Sorry Al, but if you really believe that then you just dont really know dogs.

Besides,I dont know how all of you guys can make these final sounding statements when you havent even seen the dog.Noone has even suggested to her to take the dog to someone who is experienced in this type of behavioral problem.


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## Andres Martin

> who is experienced in this type of behavioral problem.


 :lol: :lol: :lol: 
Behavioral problem = not the best prospect for the street.

The fact there are a bunch of "behavioral problems" ON the street does not excuse poor selection or upbringing...specially if there's a choice. It's simple.

By the way...genetics, genetics, genetics...beware of being sentimental.

If the pup showed unusual fear reactions at a very early age...it should not be around now.


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## Greg Long

Andres,you act as though Alicia was wanting to make a police dog out of Dominic.I doubt she ever thought he would be working the street.
I could be wrong but I never got the impression that she expected this pup to be a top working dog and surly not "working on the street" as a PSD.I agree that the dog probably wouldnt be suited for that,few dogs I see are.However,I have seen a few of these dogs that others said was totally a nutcase that were just fine for a pet or at least a deterrent.
To write the dog off based purely on internet expert's advice would be irrational at best.

Also,if the dog is worked properly and still flips out,then and only then can you determine if bad genetics are the true culprit.If the proper genetics are there then the dog will come out of the negative behaviors.

If I owned the dog and it displayed the same behavior after working with it for awhile,I would put a bullet in it's head myself.I just dont understand why everyone is so quick to dismiss this pup.He is still just a pup and these lines mature very slow.Changes in behavior can be dramatic.


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## Woody Taylor

Greg Long said:


> Noone has even suggested to her to take the dog to someone who is experienced in this type of behavioral problem.


That's a great point.



> Sorry Al, but if you really believe that then you just dont really know dogs.


This point, not so helpful. I've seen this stated explicitly about more than one forum member, I think making that judgment is as shaky as assuming we understand Alicia's situation. Plus...it's pretty damn insulting.

Edited to say, in other words, unless somebody is dumb like me, assume they have a perspective, and a right to it, and drop the "stupidity ultimatum."

Edited again to say "please."


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## Greg Long

Woody,I was just being honest.I wont apologize for my opinion.You are a mod and you can edit what you wish.

To imply I said someone was stupid because they dont really understand dogs is a bit of a stretch and not the meaning I intended.


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## Al Curbow

With the info provided the only conclusion you can come to is the dog is fearful. I truly feel bad for Alicia and dom, i've been thru it and know how heartbreaking it can be. I wish i knew Greg knew the cure for fear, i would've gladly had him fix my dog for me at any price cause then my pup would still be with me,
AL


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## Connie Sutherland

Two good points, IMO, Woody.

I didn't get the impression that the dog was going to be "on the street," either. Did I miss something? What did "service" mean, in the O.P.?


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## Woody Taylor

Greg Long said:


> Woody,I was just being honest.I wont apologize for my opinion.You are a mod and you can edit what you wish.
> 
> To imply I said someone was stupid because they dont really understand dogs is a bit of a stretch and not the meaning I intended.


I'm not going to edit it, I'm saying don't generalize that Al--who, IMHO, is a pretty awesome and supportive guy with a clear love of dogs who (based on info and stuff he's provided) seem to respect him a lot, as well--must know nothing about dogs because you think he's calling this situation wrong.

And I think it's fair to say that explicitly stating "...you just don't really know dogs..." would be offensive to 95% of the people here who post, and equally important, keep lurkers from posting here, which I cannot stand. So I'm simply saying drop the generalizations, as you are suggesting other do relative to Alicia's dog.


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## Greg Long

Well I feel very strongly about some things.I try to do whats best for the dog and I try to do everything I can to help with a problem.If I offend someone in the process then so be it(although I will try not generalize and thus be hypocritical).Many people do not understand the cause and effect of "fear" in a dog.Im not saying I can cure any dog but there is more to it than genetics.If it is truly bad genetics then there only so much you can do.Dogs can learn to work through fear.Much of the time the anxeity is based in the handler and not the dog.The most progress is made when the handler and the dog work through the stress TOGETHER.Then both are better and stronger for it.
Flight is natural.All dogs will go into flight at some level.If a dog is unbalanced either way then they arent a good working dog IMO.To be "fearless" is unnatural.To be overly fearful is also unnatural.To be able to overcome stress and work through it and around it without concern is normal.


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## Woody Taylor

...and I think the support you have offered in this thread with Alicia is great.


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## Jose Alberto Reanto

Once we worked a young dog that was so skittish, even saw him twice panicked at his own shadow. No exaggeration. With patience, the handler worked his dog thru it that after several months of exposures and work, it could qualify as a good dog and could make an easy sale. Yet the owner just worked the dog to prove something and was not really keen in having that dog as his personal dog, which is what he wanted.

Just as Greg says, it's unfair to judge a dog early on by what one sees at the outset, or by puppy testings so commonly adhered to. Best is not to judge and work that dog. Soon enough, you'll bump into its genetics, but by then, you'll know something that dog could be good at.

Just my $0.02 experience...


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## Alicia Mertz

> That being said, I certainly did not mean to start a war. Perhaps another reason why I steer clear of posts most of the time? :lol:


I'm not seeing any wars, I think this is a great thread with a lot of different perspectives that wouldn't have happened if you wouldn't have posted. So I'm glad you did. Got any more screwed up dogs? :lol: I'm kidding, I'm just pretty big on many of the lurkers and sometimes-posters we have here...many of my personally favorite folks on the forum only correspond on PM, which bugs me, because there are a lot of folks who don't post because they're afraid of looking dumb. Which is dumb. Because Greg's a dumb Okie and Al's a dumb East Coaster and I have yet to see many of the regular people here say something that wasn't remarkably dumb in a way that made my teeth hurt. So I'm glad you posted, I'm really happy about the perspectives you're being offered, and I personally lean toward's Greg's POV but I am DUMB. :lol: So don't get weirded out by the tone, this has been positive and I'm glad you shared the situation.


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## Woody Taylor

See how dumb I am, Alicia? I just erased that big a$$ post of yours. CRAP.


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## Alicia Mertz

Woody - no worries.

I always copy before I submit.

~~~~~~

I agree, Woody. Everyone on here, including Greg, has jumped in with good advice, even if one person's advice contradicts another's. I have learned over the years that there is never just ONE WAY to approach a problem.

That being said, I certainly did not mean to start a war. Perhaps another reason why I steer clear of posts most of the time? :lol: And I'm not taking sides, but having spoken to Greg as much as I have, I really don't think he meant the "you just dont really know dogs" post the way some people seem to have taken it. 

In a way, I must agree with him. While a big part of me is sitting here going, "This dog is shit. I need to get rid of him. Never going to be anything to me but a liability...blah blah blah", most of that (98%) is because I have never had this problem with a DOG before, so I just don't really know what to think or how to work through it.

Again, with horses... I had a young Arab mare one time who was scared of EVERYTHING. Deathly afraid. She'd hurt you AND herself to get away from whatever it was she deemed terrifying. No one ever thought she'd be even a decent horse, let alone a good one, and most people were afraid to get on her (not that they would have been able to ride her if they did). I'm talking about a mare who went THROUGH a high tensile fence...yes, through it...took down the posts, wrapped herself up in the wire, and then got up and kept running...to get away from the sound that the fence made. Makes sense, doesn't it? Same mare wouldn't even go near water or a groundpole when I got her, let alone in it or over one.

By the time I finished training her, she was swimming in ponds with someone on her back, tackling Training/Prelim stadium and cross country courses without batting an eye, and even beginners could get on her and do basic stuff. Not saying this happens every time, but it is possible. Granted, she was never "cured", but she learned to control her flight response by relying on me (or whoever her rider/handler was) and listening for my cues that told her it was okay. And thinking back, a good bit of her training was done by "flooding".

Now, to respond to everyone else...

Andres - I've pretty much decided that SchH (or at least what a lot of clubs have turned SchH into) is not for me. So don't worry about the reliable working dog in terms of sport. Until I find the type of club I'm looking for, which I'm doubtful will happen, I'll just have to be content with my own training. When I said "service", I suppose I should have been more clear. I don't intend for Dom to be a dog for law enforcement. He is a service dog for my partner who has a mental health disability. Oddly enough, she, too, suffers from anxiety in certain situations, and being able to focus her attention on her dog brings her a certain level of comfort. Perhaps we should get an emotional support dog for the emotional support dog? :lol: Sorry to hear about your pup.  

Mike - I don't think it's anything I did, but then again, I'm far from an expert. If his reactions are a result of "nurture", then odds are whatever happened happened before I got ahold of him at 9 weeks old. Wouldn't be so far fetched. The breeder hated me. Long story. Wouldn't be surprised if she ran over him with the vacuum at a young age...

Melissa - Come show me! Please! I think I get the W and S-patterns, but not so sure on the telescoping. :?: As for the meds, I've heard countless times that drugging horses in order to do something that they ordinarily would not let you do does not teach them anything. Rather, they're just too low key to react and don't actually "learn" anything. Is this not the same with dogs? Do you by chance have links to articles about the meds? Thank you, though, for being supportive. I will definitely incorporate your methods into my training and let you know how it's going.

Al - Not sure what to say other than I'm sure you understand what I'm going through. From what I've read of your posts, you seem to have been involved with dogs for a very long time, obviously with good results. No doubt you've encountered this before and are just speaking from your personal experiences. Your POV is something that I have to at least consider. If training doesn't help, I'm going to have to face up to the fact that you're right. As I said earlier, though, I have worked with "fearful" animals before and brought them a looooooong way, so I cannot say that at this time I agree with you 100%. However, it is possible that my successes in the past were no more than flukes.

Greg - You're right. No PSD for me, as I said. I did hope to maybe breed survey him, but I'm pretty much past that delusion now. At this point, I will be content with a calm, predictable dog who can go out in public without making an ass out of himself or hurting someone. And perhaps be a deterrent, as you said. Not much of a deterrent if the dog runs away :lol:, and with most people, all it takes is _seeing_ a big black dog...even if the damn dog would lick you to death. It's really quite funny. We took him to NYC for the 4th (by the way, he lifted his head when the first fireworks went off and then laid quietly for the rest of them) and 8 out of 10 people jumped against the buildings trying to get away from him. :lol: Gonna try my best to work with him. And work on myself, as you've said.


----------



## Woody Taylor

Whew.


----------



## Alicia Mertz

Alicia Mertz said:


> That being said, I certainly did not mean to start a war. Perhaps another reason why I steer clear of posts most of the time? :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not seeing any wars, I think this is a great thread with a lot of different perspectives that wouldn't have happened if you wouldn't have posted. So I'm glad you did. Got any more screwed up dogs? :lol: I'm kidding, I'm just pretty big on many of the lurkers and sometimes-posters we have here...many of my personally favorite folks on the forum only correspond on PM, which bugs me, because there are a lot of folks who don't post because they're afraid of looking dumb. Which is dumb. Because Greg's a dumb Okie and Al's a dumb East Coaster and I have yet to see many of the regular people here say something that wasn't remarkably dumb in a way that made my teeth hurt. So I'm glad you posted, I'm really happy about the perspectives you're being offered, and I personally lean toward's Greg's POV but I am DUMB. :lol: So don't get weirded out by the tone, this has been positive and I'm glad you shared the situation.
Click to expand...

Although, um...I am a bit confused. I didn't post this. :?: Who did?


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## Alicia Mertz

TO WHOEVER SAID THIS (MYSTERY POSTER):

"So don't get weirded out by the tone, this has been positive and I'm glad you shared the situation."

I'm glad you're glad!!   :lol:


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## Woody Taylor

Alicia Mertz said:


> TO WHOEVER SAID THIS (MYSTERY POSTER):
> 
> "So don't get weirded out by the tone, this has been positive and I'm glad you shared the situation."
> 
> I'm glad you're glad!!   :lol:


That particular mystery poster is a remarkably smart, good-looking, and capable chap. We call him the forum elf. He has powers and stuff.


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Woody Taylor said:


> Alicia Mertz said:
> 
> 
> 
> TO WHOEVER SAID THIS (MYSTERY POSTER):
> 
> "So don't get weirded out by the tone, this has been positive and I'm glad you shared the situation."
> 
> I'm glad you're glad!!   :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> That particular mystery poster is a remarkably smart, good-looking, and capable chap. We call him the forum elf. He has powers and stuff.
Click to expand...

And a lovely blue dress.


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## Woody Taylor

It's only blue when he is thinking about dwarves.


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## Alicia Mertz

:-k Why do I feel as though you two are making fun of me?!?  

Now _I_ must jump off a cliff....


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## Woody Taylor

Alicia Mertz said:


> :-k Why do I feel as though you two are making fun of me?!?
> 
> Now _I_ must jump off a cliff....


Nonono. We're making fun of ME, actually.


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## Connie Sutherland

Woody Taylor said:


> Alicia Mertz said:
> 
> 
> 
> :-k Why do I feel as though you two are making fun of me?!?
> 
> Now _I_ must jump off a cliff....
> 
> 
> 
> Nonono. We're making fun of ME, actually.
Click to expand...

That is correct. At least, I certainly was. :lol:


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## Alicia Mertz

Ahhh, so are YOU the mystery man?

You deleted my post and then made one under my name? :x Some mod you are. Can't even figure out how to work the forum... You should be   !! 

:lol: 

Just kidding!!! 

Thanks for the post. It was very nice.


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## Andres Martin

Here's my read:

The underlying issue behind all this is that Alicia didn't vacuum her apartment for ten months!!! 

...then a vacuum salesguy stopped by. Alicia liked the pitch and bought the machine. Immediately she started a vacuum frenzy. The dog freaked because "the satanic sucker" devoured all the fun stuff that used to be on the floor... :evil: 

...and now, everytime it sees the SS, it tries to head for the hills...thinking, "I'm next."

Alicia, don't for a minute think some of us aren't on to you.


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## Connie Sutherland

This was EXACTLY my take.


----------



## Martin Espericueta

A Vacuum Cleaner once ate my socks


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## Mike Schoonbrood

Martin Espericueta said:


> A Vacuum Cleaner once ate my socks


I call my sock-eating vacuum cleaner "Lyka Monster". I'm running low, maybe I should stop using them to play fetch with.

So is this thread going anywhere useful or has everyone said what they can say n now we're just goofing off? :lol:


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## Alicia Mertz

ROFLM(F)AO!!!!

You guys are a hoot.

Guilty as charged! How did you ever catch on...? Wow. You're an awfully perceptive bunch.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Alicia Mertz

Option #2.




Edited to say: Although I'm still open to any other ideas.


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## Andres Martin

OK, then. Other ideas:

1) Prozac.
2) Put your dog's food in the frickin' vacuum.
3) Stop vacuuming...again.
4) Use the "Blow" (as opposed to "Suck 'n") option...and return everything.


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## Liz Monty

I'm sorry everyone, but I want to help Alicia with this problem. This is one area I think of myself as pretty competent at. Fear in dogs.
In another thread somewhere I talked about a dog I took who would freeze against the wall to avoid being seen by any person at all. She took months to get out of the crate willingly to come play with me. She excelled each month with great confidence over each fear hurdle and became a highly competent search dog, tracking and air scenting in any crowd under any noise or abnormal equipment, etc.
A trainer wrote her off just by viewing her in her fearful stage. Months later he said it was a whole different dog.
Alicia, I used myself as the bait to overcome her fears. I made myself her only friend and her only way of getting play time. Then I made myself her only sense of security until she developed her own.
I would try a hair dryer. Plug it in on the opposite side of a large room and blow dry your hair. If she runs away, then forget the hair dryer and go to a regular house fan. If that fails, turn on the oven fan. When you have lowered the engine, blowing, roaring sound enough for her to accept, make her come forward to it by placing her only food and water close to it. Add the loudness when she excells at each level. With the vacuum, play dog with it yourself. Get down on your hands and knees and do all that embarrassing puppy play movements and even bark at the stupid thing.
She will see your example of bravery when you challenge the vacuum yourself and may join in with the barking. That would be a huge step in her confidence. Dont' be afraid to use the silliest acting to get her to follow your lead. Bark at it, smell it, back up from it and attack it. She may follow suit. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Maren Bell Jones

Alicia, Patricia McConnell's booklet "The Cautious Canine" goes through some steps towards desensitization that sound like it will be helpful that others have discussed but in some more detail.


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## Tim Martens

Alicia Mertz said:


> While a big part of me is sitting here going, "This dog is crap. I need to get rid of him. Never going to be anything to me but a liability...blah blah blah",


my take is that if you've already thought about the possibility of getting rid of the dog, then you've already mentally prepared yourself for it. if that's the case, then i say do it. there are too many good dogs out there to be saddled with a problem dog. sure i suppose there is a chance that this dog can be rehabilitated, but why take the chance? after a year of working your ass off, you may still be stuck with the same fearful and dangerous dog. that year could have been much better spent working with a stable dog, getting it upto the level of training that you desire.

this is the chance people take when they get puppies. i'd much rather start off with an 18 month to 2 year old dog and know what you're starting with.

i don't mean to sound cold hearted about this. i understand the bond people form with their dogs. the only reason i mention this is because of the quote from you above. the other side of it is that if getting rid of the dog remains a possibility in your mind, it will only hinder your efforts at rehabbing him. if you are going to try and rehab him, you've got be 100% dead set against getting rid of him. otherwise it will remain as a crutch in your mind when things aren't going well...


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## Alicia Mertz

Hmmmm. Clean freak here.

Options #3 and #4 on Andres list....noooot really options. Couldn't do it. I'd be the one having a nervous breakdown. :wink:


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## Alicia Mertz

Liz - Ah ha! Another success story! Fantastic to hear about your dog. Sounds like you really did a phenomenal job with her. As for the noise, I don't know if that's what bothers him or not. No other noises, like fans or the washer/dryer bother him. I'm beginning to think it's just the look of the vacuum...or the smell? Not sure. I'll try what you said, though. And he's seen Jaeger bark and growl and play fight with the vacuum. Do you think seeing me do it ( :lol: :lol: ) will be different in his mind? As long as no one has a camera, I'd be willing to give it a shot!

Maren - Details are good. I'll look around for the book. Thank you.

Tim - It has crossed my mind that if I'm not 100% committed to getting him through this, I may not do the best job. Heart's not in it type of thing... For my partner's sake, though, who is more sentimental and less practical than I, I have to try. I don't believe he can't be good at SOMETHING...just not what I'd hoped for him. Thank you for your POV, however. It sucks - my good working dog has bad hips and my not-so-good working dog is sound.


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## Kristen Cabe

A little on the flip side of the coin, I have a small question that was brought on by the following quote:



> With the vacuum, play dog with it yourself. Get down on your hands and knees and do all that embarrassing puppy play movements and even bark at the stupid thing. She will see your example of bravery when you challenge the vacuum yourself and may join in with the barking. That would be a huge step in her confidence. Don't be afraid to use the silliest acting to get her to follow your lead. Bark at it, smell it, back up from it and attack it. She may follow suit.


What if you have a dog that already acts this way towards the vacuum/Shark sweeper (playful wanting to kill the thing)? :lol: Should I redirect or just correct and praise for leaving it alone? The Shark sits in the living room, where it charges, and she will even try to drag it out to play with it. :lol:


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## Woody Taylor

Kristen Cabe said:


> Should I redirect or just correct and praise for leaving it alone? The Shark sits in the living room, where it charges, and she will even try to drag it out to play with it. :lol:


I correct Annie hard for that crap. I let it go for awhile until I realized that anything I pushed (mop, broom, rake) was fair game for her and a PITA for me. 

And I think it's dangerous behavior to tolerate, because in my own case it readily transferred over to other stuff (lawn mower, circle saw) that fights back when it gets harassed. It's cute to see a dog attack a push mower until you think about it losing an eye from debris, etc or getting a paw hacked. And I was impressed that she'd sniff/bark/stalk a circle saw while it was going through concrete until I realized I was having yet another moment of all-time classic dog owner stupidity. Ecollar was very good for this.


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## Alicia Mertz

Yeah, Jaeger will bark at the vacuum cleaner and even run in and bite it lightly sometimes, but luckily he listens very well when I tell him to leave other things alone, like the lawn mower or blower.


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## melissa mims

> Melissa - Come show me! Please! I think I get the W and S-patterns, but not so sure on the telescoping. As for the meds, I've heard countless times that drugging horses in order to do something that they ordinarily would not let you do does not teach them anything. Rather, they're just too low key to react and don't actually "learn" anything. Is this not the same with dogs? Do you by chance have links to articles about the meds? Thank you, though, for being supportive. I will definitely incorporate your methods into my training and let you know how it's going.


The idea behind the patterns is to slowly bring the dog to the point where they are heading directly toward the object. In the w pattern the dog can be almost parallel, as you walk you zig zag, keeping the object outside of the response threshold. You can slowly change your angle of approach, over time, to the point where the angles are not acute, and you have an s shaped pattern of approach. Then you move on to telescoping, which is just moving directly toward the object, and quickly turning around to keep the dog from reacting. That way you play with thresholds. 

Counterconditioning works well because the dog learns to do something other than panic; they have to obey a command, or focus on the handler. Weirdly, fearful dogs sometimes have the best focus. They learn that focus keeps the boogy man away, so the harder and longer they focus, the safer they feel. It becomes a reinforcment thing. Kinda like step on a crack, break your mother's back. I didn't step on a crack, moms still walking, hey it works! It becomes a charm. 

Your drug question is a good one. I see dogs with extreme fear reactions (non conditioned, which I am assuming here) as having an imbalance of neurotransmitters, too much of one, not enough of another, which affects learning and behaviour. If you can stack the cards in your favor, by using low level anti depressants (not sedatives, mind you), you may be able to tone down the response and have some success in the beginning, which is crucial. Dogs, like people, are influenced by their biology, and sometimes giving them a little help from modern science is the most humane thing to do. It may have the side effects of some doping, and it may take a while to get a therapeutic level, but it may be worth opening a discussion with your vet. At least you will have explored options. And while you are there, get a complete physical, including blood work and thyroid.

webs:

For aggression, but relevant: 


http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/140215.htm

http://www.hilltopanimalhospital.com/fearful dogs.htm

http://www.dvmnewsmagazine.com/dvm/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=31808

There is more, just google. And keep working on it! It is a rare dog that is beyond help; they are limited mainly by our knowledge, and our desire to have in a dog what we want, vs what we have. I learned a great deal from my spook; the handling didn't transfer to my working dog, but the acuity of perception did. Seek a behaviourist ( a good one), not a trainer, (can't believe I omitted that, nice catch Greg), who can see you and your dog in real time. Work on habituation, which is what I think you were trying to do before. Watch for aggression, he is nearing that age. Fear and maturity don't always mesh well. Develop his prey drive, great stress reliever. Know his limits. My spook was able to handle tug with B Flinks, but she wouldn't look at him, or eat from his hand. For that dog, she won the Nationals that day. For my working dog, the expectations are different, and much higher.

One caveat: Implicit in all my posts is the fact that I am not a trainer, nor a behaviourist. I have not seen your dog, nor know your handling. There are many other dynamics at play, and it is very difficult to offer advice over the internet, and it should be just as difficult to take it. Everything I have written should be viewed as declarations of support, not a program. 
Queries for advice such as for your dog should be an opener for multiple perspectives, and an exploration of options from others who have experience, not a diagnosis, nor a competition over who is right or wrong. This is why I don't post much anymore; it usually becomes personal and/or ideological (not speaking here, necessarily, just in general), and the topic, and the genuine guidance that can be offered, gets lost. The onus is on the handler to explore and chose, not on me in my study to provide.

With that said, (and I meant all that in the best possible way. This forum is the most reasonable out there), and said, and said, 

Good luck with your dog, Alicia. I am sure you will do what is best for him. Let me know how he does, keep us posted! Crikey this is too long!!!


----------



## Woody Taylor

Great post, Melissa. :wink:


----------



## Greg Long

> Counterconditioning works well because the dog learns to do something other than panic; they have to obey a command, or focus on the handler. Weirdly, fearful dogs sometimes have the best focus. They learn that focus keeps the boogy man away, so the harder and longer they focus, the safer they feel. It becomes a reinforcment thing. Kinda like step on a crack, break your mother's back. I didn't step on a crack, moms still walking, hey it works! It becomes a charm.
> 
> 
> 
> This is sort of similar to what I do with all my dogs.Not exactly but similar.
> 
> I strongly disagree with drugging dogs for this.
> 
> I have never had much success with the desensitizing methods.
> 
> A very well thought out and intelligent post however. :wink:
Click to expand...


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## Woody Taylor

Greg Long said:


> A very well thought out and intelligent post however. :wink:


Softy.


----------



## Greg Long

Yeah,I dont think I feel well today...I almost feel NICE.Yuck! :x


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## Connie Sutherland

Greg Long said:


> Yeah,I dont think I feel well today...I almost feel NICE.Yuck! :x


I'm calling an ambulance.


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## Liz Monty

Kristen, I also discourage a dog from leathally attacking my vacuums, brooms, water hoses, etc. It's a huge pain in the butt when they do this. It shows complete lack of temporary obedience during these episodes. :lol: :lol: :lol: 
I am with Greg on that, discipline hard and make sure they quit doing it. I know I may be chastized for this, but Bronc, a malinois I inerited one day, used to chase the vacuum. Finally after all attempts to control his playful frenzy I vacuumed him, he never did it again. The beast turned on the beast.

Alicia, even if there's a camera around, just look at it like it was your last resort :lol: 
the dog will either cue off of your confidence to check out the vacuum that made you bark and do the same or he will not.
I don't know which way Greg meant to do it, I wasn't understanding his post. Greg, can you please post again and let me know what you would try. It might help me one day. Thanks


----------



## Liz Monty

an edit to the above post. I didn't mean that I made Bronc afraid of the vacuum, I just gave up on collar corrections or redirections and made him see that If I was vacuuming and he got in the way, I was going right through him, so he better move.


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## Kristen Cabe

Thanks Woody and Liz; I just wanted to make sure I was doing right. :wink: Jak never cared about the vacuum, or anything else for that matter, so I didn't have to worry about it with him, but Jessie is just completely the opposite. They're like night and day.


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## Greg Long

Its really hard to suggest specifics on the internet.There are too many factors involved and I havent even seen the dog in person.I only know what I THINK the dog is like from the posts.
Having said that,first I would put the dog on a prong and a leash and heel the dog past the item to see what I was dealing with.Then I would possibly move both the dog and the item to a new location and repeat the process.As soon as the dog realized the item was there(indication),I tell the dog "its ok I see it" and continue on.If the dog is throwing himself on the ground and rolling and screaming I just continue on.The next time I might down the dog.Where I down the dog depends on his reaction.The next time I might have him sit.Work him like this for 5 minutes or so and let him rest.You have to know when to back off.This is why I dont like to tell people to do it on the internet.Everyone is either too hard on the dogs or not hard enough,you have to develop a feel and that comes from working alot of dogs.
The next day I might set up some obstacles.I place the item somewhere in the obstacle and the dog has to go past,over or under it.Stress relieves stress so the stress of the obstacle(height,unstable,narrow,etc.)relieves the stress of the item.All the while you MUST be communicating with the dog.Telling him "its ok", "I see it","easy","I got ya" along with the obstacle commands like "Up","over","under","come across","climb","right turn","left turn","platz","sit" the list goes on.The dog will start to listen to you and take direction.They will find comfort in the work and the things that caused them stress will eventually be of no concern.
In this type of work you can truly see the dogs genetics and how far he will progress.I know I left many many things out.This is just a really quick overview of the general idea.The variations are limitless as are the applications.Bitework can be incorporated as can scentwork.The dog and handler learn to work as a team.

I wouldnt let a dog act aggressively towards an inanimate object like that.A simple "leave it" should do if the dog is already taking direction.

I must caution about using too harsh a vocal tone or too high and babying.The vocals are very important and should be matter of fact and low and confident.This requires discipline and control of your emotions.Improvement in these areas will show immediate improvement in your dogs.You have to keep one thing in mind always,you are teaching attitude to another living thing.A close examination of your own attitude may be disturbing but nevertheless neccessary.Enough for now.Hope it helps.


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## Andres Martin

Greg...humbly...good post!


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## Jeff Oehlsen

You guys have 4 stinkin pages on this???

Skittish pup? Toss it in a bucket and get another. I can't beleive how many contortions of training people will go through to get JUNK to handle itself sort of.

What the heck kind of life do these dogs really have? Put it down and get one that isn't a disaster. There are plenty out there.


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## Andres Martin

What's garbage to one, is another's treasure...grasshopper.


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## Connie Sutherland

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> You guys have 4 stinkin pages on this???
> 
> Skittish pup? Toss it in a bucket and get another. I can't beleive how many contortions of training people will go through to get JUNK to handle itself sort of.
> 
> What the heck kind of life do these dogs really have? Put it down and get one that isn't a disaster. There are plenty out there.


There's a difference between genetic and environmental factors, and not all dogs with some fear have generalized fear. A pathologically anxious, fearful dog -- yes, I agree: What kind of life does such a dog have?

Living in constant fear is not something I would force on a dog.

But that's not always the situation.

I've seen specific phobias (particularly noise phobias) rehabilitated very well.

It's not clear from a written description (at least, not to me) which this dog is.

Just as noise desensitization (early and regular exposure to distant gunfire, fireworks, etc.) can reduce a young dog's "normal" sensitivity to noise, so it can with some dogs with hyper sensitivity.

Of course, I'm not saying this dog has a noise phobia or that this dog can be rehabilitated; I am saying that some dogs can be.


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## Al Curbow

Jeeze Jeff, people who know dogs can fix the problem and turn the dog into a confident dog, LOL


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote:Jeeze Jeff, people who know dogs can fix the problem and turn the dog into a confident dog, LOL

I cry BS on that one. Junk the thing and get a good one. 

I don't get it. Having a fearful dog is about as useless as a cardboard prybar. Why would you keep on with it? waste of food and space.


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## Greg Long

Jeff,how did you slip through the culling process??  The signs had to be obvious! :lol: 

Oddly enough,I do cull.Sometimes just because Im in a bad mood. :twisted: Being scared of a vacume cleaner isnt automatic justification though. 8)


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## Andres Martin

> Being scared of a vacume cleaner isnt automatic justification though.


Maybe not...for Chihuahuas... :twisted:


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## Connie Sutherland

This is turning silly. :roll:


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## Al Curbow

Greg, if you read the original post, the dog is afraid of many new things, not just a vacuum. If you're going to respond to a post, you should read the entire text. It keeps things from getting confused......, JMO,
AL


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## Greg Long

That chihuahua is smarter than I am.You should see him go into a frenzy when the word "Mcdonalds" is even whispered. :roll:


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## Greg Long

Ok,Al I will read the ENTIRE post before I comment next time.I am very thankful you brought that to my attention.In fact I retract my entire contribution to this thread....KILL the [email protected]#$%^.Get a new dog and everything will be right in the world again. :lol:


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## Connie Sutherland

Al Curbow said:


> ..... the dog is afraid of many new things, not just a vacuum.....


My post stands, but I actually had forgotten that it wasn't just the vacuum cleaner.  

I'm old.


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## Alicia Mertz

Wow. I missed a lot in just a few hours...

I have to run out and get food for Thanksgiving tomorrow. Been home from work for 5 hours and NOW I decide to cook.

Anyway, I will respond later tonight. Think you guys can keep it civil (not the dog kind of civil) until then? :wink:


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## Liz Monty

Cull the dog, just plain narrow minded.
Bronc, who is now a great Mondio dog, was to be shot at 5 months of age. A stupid, untrained girl who is too pretty for any guy to resist, convinced this TRAINED professional dog acessor and trainer to let her take the malinois. Because her little frowny face made him feel bad. So he did not SHOOOT the damn puppy. 
She dropped off this malinois to me and said in tears. my mother won't let me keep him at the house. (27 year old women living at home with mom and dad). I crated him each night and left him alone in a building because I had NO choice to bring him to my home with my dogs.
He would pee when given a command to sit or down. He would cower and was handler submissive terrified. He was ruined, in the eyes of the PROS.
Bull shit - he became a completely different dog after many months in the woods hiking and learning to trust a handler again. He later won 1st place against RETRIEVERS in a Trial for Working Dogs.
He then prooved himself as a great, vacuum attacker, a driven search dog, and now a proven Mondio Dog.
Cull, my butt. This Malinois would kick your butt if you met him in the dark and his handler said "Get HIM".
My old female Perle, who's picture is on my mantle forever, because she died of Pyometra was a shadow on a wall for months. In her last year, she was an advanced search dog who found a lost boy in Ontario at Sauble Beach, she drove a man out of my yard on his ass the whole time. She was obedient, driven and nothing frightened that dog.
Tonka, who raised his hackles and stopped moving when he saw someone walking on the street, is now a top Narcotic dog for the Canadian government, after I had him for 1 1/2 years. No fear of people, loves them. No fear of dogs. loves them, no fear of the bush, woods, traffic. I walked him onto the bridge at the Windsor/Michigan boarder during heavy large Rig traffic within three feet of the curb.
Anni, a Baden dog who thought cars where to be chased and killed became an obedient, high drive, narcotic dog with about as much fear as a soldier in war. There was not an obstacle that could stop her in any work.

The pup I have now - shyed once in the woods trails and showed signs of running back to the car. ONCE only. Today she was running the trails ahead of me, alerting on strange sights and gladly at my side approaching them. Imagine if I had CULLED any of these dogs. What a loss it would be.

Bluey, almost strangled himself at the first sight of a new person one day. In two days after he chased a couple of teens from the cottage when he heard them trying to steal our bikes outside. He attended a street party with me and greeted everyone with great enjoyment. when he got tired he FOUND my car along the rows of many vehicles and laid down beside the door on the ground and slept there until I drove us back home.

It's the handler who builds the confidence and there are many ways of doing it depending on what works with each dog. 
An aquaintences dog - years of problems walking him on leash, lunging at other dogs passing by, hackles up in fear aggression. Solved the problem by taking them for a hike with my dog Bridgette, very dominant female. Both came off leash and she put him down one time and he continued the hike with no more fear of dogs. He just had to learn what A DOG was and how they interact in behaviour. They never had a problem with him again and he greeted dogs with confidence and no fear aggression.

A doberman who was afraid of the tiles in his kitchen and would not walk on them. Solved the problem, brought in a dog he liked to play with outside on walks and he had to get over his fear to get his share of treats in the kitchen when his friend dog did, problem solved. Just find the motivation and make it happen, it builds trust, and trust builds confidence.
We don't CULL kids who are shy, usually they later become astranauts, football players, war heroes. Fight or Flight all come from the same trait, DEFENCE. Train DEFENCE into OFFENCE and quit Culling.
My opinion, and I'm in a bad mood tonight and not willing to change my opinion. I dont' cull animals, I form them. Even when I ask for advise, I still choose by their reaction immediately which advise I am to follow, I still hold my initial instincts if the advise didn't work, and try it another way, but I try it SOON. I don't keep doing what is not working. Then I don't have to CULL. If you were to ask my best friend what animal I always like the best, she would tell you "she likes the problem ones" because they are a challenge that usually become the best.
P.S. I solved the cat problem with Bella. I put the puppy prong on her. No more chasing, they are now laying together in peace.

One dog takes stupid little gentle steps and bribery to do what you want initially and another dog will take 'the no bullshit" approach to get what you want. The original poster has no reason to give up just based on the dog being fearful and goofy, it can be overcome and improve the dog in whole. She may give up the dog if she chooses to though out of her own desires and reasons.

One poster said they wouldn't waste time on such an animal, time and expense - get rid of it. What if docters felt that way about patients, drug addicts and mental illness problems. Alot of great people would be dead instead of becoming great mothers, teachers, artists, writers, and even DOG TRAINERS


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Bronc, who is now a great Mondio dog

Sorry, never had the pleasure, perhaps you can tell me what titles he (the great) Mondio dog has earned?????????

The entire Malinois breed was crafted by culling off the weak and useless. Any thought that the breed was just well managed is not paying attention. Culling still goes on to this day, and will as long as anyone cares about the breed. Dogs are not human, and no matter what you may think of me, culling is going on as we speak.


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## David Frost

In the working line we call it culling. In the show line they call it "pet quality". Regardless of what it's called, I agree, culling goes on.

DFrost


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## Liz Monty

I said "A Proven Mondio Dog". Titles are for the sport enthusiast. Whether or not Bronc has been trialed and if he has been titled I do not know. I have never cared. What I do know is that I kept tabs on him and his advancements for a number of months and he as his "handler" stated, was doing better than he had ever expected and had eaily surpassed many of his other dogs he does Mondio with. Like I stated in the fist of my posts, I do not give out individual names of trainers. That is how arguments and political problems arise on these boards.

Culling is wrong no matter how you relate it. "Pet Dog" just means that some breeder looked at a young dog and THOUGHT it would not respresent what he wanted. A culled dog is a dog who is humanely put down because of physical defects and health problems. Your use of Culling is wrong. 
NO dogs are not people, they are Tougher, more loyal and more attentive than people in general.

If a person is going to buy a "Show Lines AKC or CKC dog" to run around a circle ring with and collect ribbons, and they get a fearful puppy, then they can work on those fears. They knew the consequences when they purchased and they knew that they were helping to weaken the breed. But you do not cull what you developed.

If a working dog breeder comes upon a fearful puppy, then think about it. It still carries the genetics to be great, if you realize that the majority of breeding is carefully thought out in a way to double the great traits and not double on the poor traits. You get a less than sound dog mentally, don't breed it, that's all. That is how you keep the working lines strong.
But if you are Culling, then your only reason for doing so is to free up your kennel for more money making dogs, and to protect your reputation.
Unsound Dog -spay/neuter it. At least you will be respected for being an animal lover and using emphathy somehwere in the world of dogs YOU CREATE


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## Andres Martin

Liz...with all due respect...in the shepherd breeds, working breeds, game breeds and hunting breeds, we are enjoying TODAY the fruit of many, many years of very selective breeding, to include significant culling of dogs that did not fully display the physical and character traits that were expected OF THE BREED.

The more "purely sentimental" baloney we - as a society - entertain in all aspects, the more disintegrated, selfish, trite, we will become...and the more diluted our objectives. IMO, this applies to everything from raising a family, to personal behavior and standards, to our expectations and tolerance of other's behavior, to breeding and raising dogs.

We have all become less practical.

Regarding dogs, why in the world would we want to undo what others have done so well? Answer: we can't take reality. (ooops: IMO).

Malinois as a breed today are deteriorating. GSDs are mostly gone. Dobermans, Rottweilers, Terriers, etc. etc. are GONE. The list is looooong.

So...skittish working dog...at the VERY LEAST should be spayed or neutered. Ideally, any dog that belongs to a working breed that shows fears beyond the normal, should be immediately culled.

Any dog that shows genetic defects is IMO a no-brainer.


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## Bob Scott

Andres Martin said:


> Liz...with all due respect...in the shepherd breeds, working breeds, game breeds and hunting breeds, we are enjoying TODAY the fruit of many, many years of very selective breeding, to include significant culling of dogs that did not fully display the physical and character traits that were expected OF THE BREED.
> 
> The more "purely sentimental" baloney we - as a society - entertain in all aspects, the more disintegrated, selfish, trite, we will become...and the more diluted our objectives. IMO, this applies to everything from raising a family, to personal behavior and standards, to our expectations and tolerance of other's behavior, to breeding and raising dogs.
> 
> We have all become less practical.
> 
> Regarding dogs, why in the world would we want to undo what others have done so well? Answer: we can't take reality. (ooops: IMO).
> 
> Malinois as a breed today are deteriorating. GSDs are mostly gone. Dobermans, Rottweilers, Terriers, etc. etc. are GONE. The list is looooong.
> 
> So...skittish working dog...at the VERY LEAST should be spayed or neutered. Ideally, any dog that belongs to a working breed that shows fears beyond the normal, should be immediately culled.
> 
> Any dog that shows genetic defects is IMO a no-brainer.


I can show you a BUNCH of great working terriers.
My wife is going to cull me if I don't get this Mal pup placed! Definately not working quality and I wouldn't own he as a pet.


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## Liz Monty

Jeff, my mistake, French Ring, go to this website, look for Jerry Cudahy and see his results in the Nationals, maybe you can ask him yourself how Bronc is doing. On Jerry's last report, Bronc was a very good dog. Bronc's sire was AXEL
http://www.ringsport.org/ring3championships.htm

Try not to attack me as a poster for voicing my opinion over Culling, by using a dog's achievments.

Andre, I still don't have to like the idea of Culling due to softness or skittishness in a dog. I can agree with you 100% that these dogs should be spaid/neutered if the problem is not a solveable one that shows the dog DID have the genetic behaviour strenghts but they where not brought out yet.

Of course the GSD's have been ruined, but not only by poor breeding, but also by not using as much cross-breeding. In the past, many GSD's had malinois blood in them, we all know that but it is a Good Secret kept under the table. GSD's are not only ruined by Show line Family Pet Breeders, but by the lack of new working blood being introduced from time to time. And please, no one ask me to prove that this has occurred in the past, most good breeders are aware of it's unofficial rumours. And it would be almost impossible to prove. But I definately believe it has happened to keep the dogs strong and maybe it is still happening time to time.


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## Connie Sutherland

Liz Monty said:


> Jeff, my mistake, French Ring, go to this website, look for Jerry Cudahy and see his results in the Nationals, maybe you can ask him yourself how Bronc is doing. On Jerry's last report, Bronc was a very good dog.
> http://www.ringsport.org/ring3championships.htm
> 
> Try not to attack me as a poster for voicing my opinion over Culling, by using a dog's achievments...


Do you have a better URL? That one doesn't work (for me).


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## Liz Monty

OOPS
http://www.ringsport.org/ring3champions.htm


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## Connie Sutherland

What constitutes a "proven" dog in French Ring? Or a "great" one?

It looks like a sport (with titles) to me.


I'm not arguing; I am completely lost with the terminology of "proven," "great," and "titles are for sports."


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## Liz Monty

Hi Connie, to me the word proven means that the dog has shown physically and mentally that he is capable of doing the work required. In this dog's particular ability, the owner says he is. I have no reason to not believe the person who basically began Canada's role in the North America Ring Association. I am so upset by Jeff's attitude, that I have spent the last 40 minutes talking with people to find out if Bronc has titled. All of us here know he can, but I don't know if he has?????
Here is some history on the breeder and now owner of Bronc, 
Jerry Cudahy, first dog handler team (with Axel De Lison Ring 111) to train to ring 111 in North America, and then go to France and Trial there. In more recent years he has trialed to championships with other dogs in Ring 111 also. Axel De Lison is Bronc's sire, and the dog, as poor as he seemed due to mishandling, became what he was genetically inclined to be when he was returned to Jerry.

I may have a dog who I will call "Proven" if it accomplishes the work I set out for it, it may be tracking, scenting, agility, I don't know why people only think of a "Title" as the only acceptable way of proving a dog's abiltiy. If I want to find my car keys lost on a trail. What do I want a proven dog or a proven titled dog. Either one does the job.


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## Woody Taylor

Liz Monty said:


> \
> 
> I may have a dog who I will call "Proven" if it accomplishes the work I set out for it, it may be tracking, scenting, agility, I don't know why people only think of a "Title" as the only acceptable way of proving a dog's abiltiy. If I want to find my car keys lost on a trail. What do I want a proven dog or a proven titled dog. Either one does the job.


Liz, my dog can track (other dogs), smell stuff (like my kids and its food, with its nose), jump (over stuff, sometimes when I don't want it to). It's not too far of a stretch to say that "Proven" in a given sport would indicate that the dog has titled, consistently, within that sport in a variety of conditions with a variety of judges. You are saying it's a "Proven" dog in a particular sport, that carries weight with people here participating in that given sport (in Jeff's case, Mondio). A dog that titles in Schutzhund once, I'll propose, is not a "Proven" Sch dog...Molly Graf's dog, who's titled Sch3 many times over, probably does have the Schutzhund deal down.

Liz, you're still new here, there are some folks with harsher opinions about dogs than others and have a great habit of baiting others into arguments they really care less about (check some of the other threads today, for instance). Wasting time trying to prove whether one dog titled despite the odds won't accomplish a whole lot. It's awesome that the particular dog you speak of did well...not many people here would say there are not exceptions to the rule.


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## Liz Monty

Thanks Woody. I understand what you mean by "proven" in regard to the dog achieving the directive many times over and with many obstacles to overcome. Yes, I wholly believe that is a great explanation of the word.
I'm probably just as guilty at times of Baiting, but not intentionally I hope. I have some strong feelings about certain things and have at times been known to over state my feelings too. I'm naturally for the underdog usually, I don't know why, maybe cause I'm only 5 foot 2. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Well, I don't know about baiting, but how silly is it to say a dog is "proven" yet doesn't have a title. That is kinda the point of the title.

I tend to stomp on internet BS pretty hard. Most are people that have barely trained a dog, and unfortunately the BS that spews from their mouths is taken as law. I AIN'T havin it. :twisted: 

One of the reasons that the working Mals are as spectacular as they are is culling. If the puppy is a nervebag, snap it's neck.

This, in todays society is aweful and horrendous, but I really do not want to see the Mal become the trash that so many other breeds have become due to "sensitive" mentalities. 

Jerry is a funny guy, and I don't think what you described would count as a reason for culling, (another problem I had with your stupid arguement against it.)

Again, I wasn't baiting, I was straight out telling you an untitled dog is UNPROVEN and that I was crying BS.

Doesn't mean I am a hater.


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## Connie Sutherland

Well, "proven great" in a sport that titles means "titled" to a lot of people, I imagine.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: NO dogs are not people, they are Tougher, more loyal and more attentive than people in general.

Obviously you haven't met me. I got a dog beat all day long.


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## Woody Taylor

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: NO dogs are not people, they are Tougher, more loyal and more attentive than people in general.
> 
> Obviously you haven't met me. I got a dog beat all day long.


AND, you pee on Bob's furniture.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Always a bonus.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: In the past, many GSD's had malinois blood in them, 

This is crap. In the 60's the Mal was, for the most part, not a dog people would use. Culling the crap out of the breed was done excessively in the 70's.

No one in their right mind would use a Mal "in the past" as they were not all that great back then. 

Once you stop ruthlessly culling, you ruin the breed, and all the hard work that someone else has done for the breed, because you (gen) are too weak to be breeding. Instead, you try and rest on their laurels and profit.

I guess that is a long way of saying you (gen)suck. :twisted: :twisted:


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## Andres Martin

Jeff...I for one am glad to see the new and improved...more delicate and subtle...version of you - after your self imposed exile.
:lol:


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I couldn't stand the BS, besides, delicate and subtle are cull words for me. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:


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## Alicia Mertz

Okay guys...cool the jets. :lol: While you are more than welcome to continue your "to cull or not to cull" debate (I myself understand why culling is important for the development and maintenance of a breed and have absolutely no problem with it when done correctly) - I think it prudent to tell you that unless Dominic proves himself to be a genuine liability rather than just a pain in my...then culling is not even one of the options. Neutering, ABSOLUTELY. Any hopes I had of breeding him are gone. The last thing I want to do is contribute bad genetics to a breed that is, arguably, already dying. 

However, that being said, all of you have been wonderful in giving me advice and explaining your positions, all of which are valid in their own right. I can see the situation from a LOT more angles; and thankfully, I realize now that placing him in a "pet home" with someone likely even less experienced than I would perhaps only exacerbate the problem. I've received several good suggestions on ways to work through these problems and build Dominic's confidence through me as his handler, and we're going to work on making him the best dog possible, even if his best isn't Kkl 1 (yeah yeah...DREAM ON, Alicia :lol: ). And, if I reach the point where I feel as though I'm not making any progress and need "professional" help, I believe I have some very good options.

If you'd like, I'd be glad to post updates on Dom's progress. I don't expect anything fast... Afterall, small steps for a Chihuahua...giant steps for Dominic. :lol: :lol:


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## Alicia Mertz

Just to make sure no one thinks I'm ungrateful for their opinion, "supportive" or not ("supportive" being "you can still make him a good dog"), THANK YOU *VERY MUCH* to everyone on the forum who chipped in to this conversation.  I genuinely appreciate it. Believe me. 

And, in case you're interested, here are recent pictures of my PCS (personal chicken s#!*):



















Real shame. I think he's a handsome boy. 

Then again, I'm a _little_ biased! :wink:


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## ann schnerre

FWIW, i personally think that melissa's approach would be the one would try, given the problem. alicia, he's acting EXACTLY as would a horse, say, being asked to load on a trailer who's been trailer-soured (we've all seen the ruined ones at shows: whips, butt-lines, hot-shots to load). makes for a rodeo, doesn't it??

anyway--SOMETHING is causing your pup to "lose his mind" about the vac, etc. i hate that look/behavior b/c to me, it means i failed (again). but it ALSO means to me that there IS a way around it. keep after it, and, PLEASE keep us here updated on what has worked/not for you.

he's gorgeous, BTW.


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## Woody Taylor

ann freier said:


> he's gorgeous, BTW.


Yes, he is.


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## Alicia Mertz

Ann - I fully intend to incorporate Melissa's methods into our training, so I'm glad you agree that they are sound ones. I have on several occasions related his behavior back to some of the horses I've trained, so your trailer analogy makes perfect sense - I just don't have the same amount of experience with dogs, so I honestly wasn't sure if the problem would be approached the same way.

Ann and Woody - Thanks.  He looks so blue in that second picture! I love it. :lol:


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## melissa mims

Oh my, those are not methods. They're just what happened to work with my dog, coupled with a lot of research in learning theory, and lot of observation. And a lot of reading in, haha, horse handling (well some), and neurobiology, and treatment of panic disorders, and PTSD, and....

 He is beautiful. Good luck!


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## ann schnerre

melissa knows her stuff!! i think (tho i've not been there too often with either horses or dogs--but just often enough)--one has to work UP to the spooky horse-eating or dog-eating monster, just as melissa outlines.

the one caveat i would add, is to not put the "monster" in the same place every time, or it (the dog/reaction) will become "place-oriented". easier to fix w/dog than horse!!

ann


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Or you can buy glass pliers. Those are pretty too.


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## Liz Monty

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Or you can buy glass pliers. Those are pretty too.


Alicia, I love the look in this dog's eyes, I may be crazy, but I see character deep inside there. And YES, Jeff, you can definately call me a nut for this one. lol

Jeff, I'm not trying to intentionally irritate you. There are many things you have posted in threads that I really admire and like. I think what you have done with your dog in Mondio is great, really.
We just have different ways of expressing words, and SOME theories that are personal. 

It not nice to call me Stupid though, that could really give me a complex, but I'm not that easily broken. Sorry you don't like the comment about mixing good malinois blood into GSD's sometimes, but you can't call it bullshit, because none of us can prove it one way or another, unless a breeder was willing to step forward and admit to it. We all hear many rumours and theories about dogs, I take some with salt and some I take as probable. It's only fair to see the greys between the black and white.

I've had luck with weak looking dogs, that is why I am the way I am. Sure I would prefer that all dogs where sound and balanced, but then I would have never gained the experience I have with working with them. Plus you can call it weakness, but I like to see them live. You have to admit there is a humorous side to this whole twist of events.
The dog is afraid of a vacuum - I said that dogs are more loyal and more attentive than people usually - you say that you are better than a dog on any given day - but at the end of the day - who decided if the house was to be vacuumed or not - the dog :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: 

I'm so sorry, I just had to lighten up this argument. :lol:


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Sorry you don't like the comment about mixing good malinois blood into GSD's sometimes, but you can't call it crap, because none of us can prove it one way or another, unless a breeder was willing to step forward and admit to it.

During the time period you mentioned, GSD breeders did not use the Mal for the reasons I mentioned. However the reverse was true. Try not to spread conjecture and BS here. We try and stick to the truth. 

It is not like I got into dogs or breeding yesterday. While I am sure you are a nice person, the Walt Disney complex you and most of America has is irritating to the core to me. Ruining a breed so you can save a nervy piece of junk..........I don't even want to start.

Oh, and character from a picture? Puleeese Uncle Walt, make the mouse stop F&^%in me.

Ever notice that the truely great breeders in Europe are men? That is why here in US the majority of breeders are women, and the results are in folks.

Again, you seem like a nice person, and I am not trying to hurt your feelings. However, I am stomping on other things.


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## Liz Monty

QUOTE "Or you can buy glass pliers. Those are pretty too."

QUOTE "Alicia, I love the look in this dog's eyes, I may be crazy, but I see character deep inside there. And YES, Jeff, you can definately call me a nut for this one. lol"

That's what I meant Jeff, you could call me a nut for that comment. I whole heartedly agree, that just because a dog's eyes catch my attention, it doesn't mean anything in reality. It just means I see character. Though that character may be one I would completely find useless one day. That is why I said you could call me nuts :-k I sure would never suggest breeding the dog BASED on HIS EYES 

I didn't mention a "period of time" that Malinois and GSD blood is mixed. These things probably went on before and may still go one now. I don't like to discount what many people have said about that. So I can't just take the word of one man today who says it did not happen.

I really goofed up with the "Proven Mondio" dog comment, the first post I said it correctly "Great Mondio" dog. Great as in he was doing it wonderfully, the activiities required to do the sport.

I have seen mostly men breeding the GSD's and WoW, the majority are breeding for Sch and for the Comformation Rings. Not too many of these breeders have chosen the old East German and Czech lines which I prefer, because they just don't make a pretty dog who's going to take the ribbons.
It is also mostly husband and wife who breed the CKC show dog and the AKC show dogs.

I would think it great to have the older lines back again and not the show lines. 

"What does Walt Disney have to do with any of this????" I just got confused on that one.

Almost everyone is in aggreement on the whole thread, weak dogs are not good, not to breed and that breeding has gone downhill in majority of cases (excepting the few good breeders). Women don't want weak dogs bred any more than men do if it is a serious and competant dog we want.

I just have respect for the underdog "the weaker or skittish dog" because it is not their fault they came out that way or where caused to be that way. But I sure would not promote their breeding. I'm not a soft female who lives in a fantasy world. I want the same things you seem to want, just look at the information a different way and take a lot of information in and decide what seems sensible.
None of us around the whole world are ever going to have the real answer about blood being crossed between GSD's, Malinois, and Dutchies. There are so many breeders who have researched and done great jobs in trying to keep the dogs strong and have stuck to the SET-OUT rules of breeding. But that does not mean that other breeders did not mix bloods.


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## Liz Monty

Oh, Jeff, I do agree that MANY of the European Breeders stick to better dogs.


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## Woody Taylor

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Oh, and character from a picture? Puleeese Uncle Walt, make the mouse stop F&^%in me.


*Lawyer*: So, let me get this straight, Mr. Mouse. You want to divorce your wife because she's crazy?
*Mickey*: No, you idiot. I want to divorce her because _she's F&^%in Goofy!_

Yes, Jeff's Mondio accomplishments are legendary on this forum. And hilarious.

I'm pretty sure this thread has run its course, if we have more for the pup, let's post it out, otherwise, let's start a new thread. We're too far away from the O.P. and the initial discussion for this stuff to make a lot of sense here.


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