# The actually help Micheal Murphy thread...



## Matt Vandart

Ok so I decided to start a thread whereby MM can actually get some help with his pup. what I suggest is people do some vids with pups of about the same age and what we are doing with them in natural non edited training sessions so he can see all. Not 'Look how freaking awesome my pup is vids' but just normal stuff we do with our puppies around the house on a daily basis. 
If anyone want'd to post club training vids of pups around the age of his then that would be fantastic also.
Why am I doing this?
1: Cos I think he and his pup need help and I think we should give them it.
2: I'm reading alot of 'good advice' and sheet on his thread but seeing **** all evidence of anyone actually putting it into practice to show him (and us) that they actually know what they are doing and how to do it.
3: We can ALL see a bit of our younger selves in Micheal and anyone that doesn't admit that is lying. I could have done with alot more help from internet people than I got rather than flaming (but that doberman folk for you....) and I don't see any reason or logic in a continuation of that mentality.
4: I can empathise with Micheal and his Club problem.

Any and all constructive criticism about anything I do in my vids is appreciated and will also help MM. 
If you want to post any shite about Micheal and his pup rather than constructive stuff just Fck off to another thread and keep this one positive.

Here is my first Vid, just a bit of buggering about with Alice my 15 week old mali Pup in the kitchen as it is absolutely pouring down outside (not relevant but her Pedigree is full of KNPV) and yes she is named after Alice on here, lol, well that and its an Anagram of Sali (in welsh, Alis) to keep shit simples.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZTeBCrP_GM&feature=youtu.be

After the vid she went back in her crate, she'll be out again laterz.

Anyway I hope others join in.


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## Tony Hahn

Good idea for a thread Matt. Unedited video with mistakes and everything could be helpful. Hopefully folks will post.

Only thing I'd add is to make sure that mistakes are pointed out to make sure nobody is confusing good training with the inevitable errors/bad timing/ etc that sometimes occur.


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## Matt Vandart

Yes, hopefully people will point out mine, lol, cos I don't know what they are!


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## Tony Hahn

Well... I was thinking more along the lines of people who are giving advice and posting the videos would be both explaining what they are acomplising and also pointing out their own mistakes to help Michael (or help anyone).


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## Kadi Thingvall

Can't give completely unedited video without going and and making them, but these are some that are on the WWW that might be good for Michael

This pup was almost 4 months old and teething. The young guy was also a newbie. Notice that we are taking it very gentle with her mouth, she bites, she counters, she wins. And the exposure to environmental stuff was also done gently. It was her first time, and it's not about showing how much she can take and how hard we can push her, but just letting her have a fun and positive experience.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CinBxmpS09o

Another pup, 5 months old and almost done with teething. You can mimic what Waleed was doing when playing with your pup, notice the backwards movement and encouragement for the pup to go forward.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNiIZd05gMc

Another pup working on some foundation skills for obedience. For a pup this age the object video was probably to long of a session on a single skill. In the object video there is some off camera luring going on, I just didn't have the camera angle right to show my hands all the time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUAEj7Qn3G4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qPMvAr1e9U

These are some more off my clubs website, the tuck video is another one that can be useful, once the dog has "object" down.
Heist retrieving, 2.5 months old
Heist - working on the object and sit commands, 2.5 months old
Ares - 6 months old working on his obedience exercises
Ares - 7 months, working the seen and thrown retrieves
Ares - working on tuck for the basic heel position
Ares - 3.5 months old working on learning object, sit, stand, down and retrieves


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## Matt Vandart

Awesome, that's just the ticket, thanks!


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## Alice Bezemer

You do realize that people tend to spend their time trainimg their dogs and see no value or benefit in putting everything on video so.... especially so for a person who will simply ignore it.


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## Tony Hahn

Alice Bezemer said:


> You do realize that people tend to spend their time trainimg their dogs and see no value or benefit in putting everything on video so.... especially so for a person who will simply ignore it.


I didn't realize how valuable video can be until after the puppy stage was over. Next pup I get will be videoed a lot. Granted it can be time consuming to edit and post video, but with the proliferation of cell phone video capability as well as readily available, inexpensive video cameras; it's practically no effort to take the video itself. Even if you never share video publicly it can be a great training aid for just yourself. Potentially it could help others learn too. Of course you are correct that it won't be of any use to someone who will simply ignore it, but you never know when that is actually going to be the case or who else might benefit.


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## Matt Vandart

Alice, 
I spend time training my dogs too, 6 of them, if people don't want to do it that's fine by me.
Is there a problem? I see no problem, what's the problem?
Why have you posted this statement?
If people have no time to vid stuff then they just don't post anything, no worries.

Anyway, more from today:

Using a box as a boundary to gain duration with mixed results, lol:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qi5nCKTdJ8Q&feature=youtu.be

Out and about doing a bit of environmental and socially neutralizing her:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAZ2N-OvF48&feature=youtu.be

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppNfXkehD7k&feature=youtu.be


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## Christopher Jones

I guess we could also come up with a list of Michael type thread titles incase he is needing help with some. Heres some of mine.
Thread topic 1 : If a KNPV and an NVBK malinois got into a dog fight which one would win?

Thread topic 2 : Is it better to have a dog target vital parts of the body like Jugular veins?

Thread topic 3 : Should I teach my dog how to fight with other dogs just incase he needs to defend me against a pittbull attack?

Thread topic 4 : Why do people do IPO when they can do KNPV or Ring?

Thread topic 5 : If a small Malinois bit me would it do much damage?

Thread topic 6 : Do people get their PP dogs to bite homeless people to make sure they bite for real?

Thats got to be of some help


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## brad robert

Christopher Jones said:


> I guess we could also come up with a list of Michael type thread titles incase he is needing help with some. Heres some of mine.
> Thread topic 1 : If a KNPV and an NVBK malinois got into a dog fight which one would win?
> 
> Thread topic 2 : Is it better to have a dog target vital parts of the body like Jugular veins?
> 
> Thread topic 3 : Should I teach my dog how to fight with other dogs just incase he needs to defend me against a pittbull attack?
> 
> Thread topic 4 : Why do people do IPO when they can do KNPV or Ring?
> 
> Thread topic 5 : If a small Malinois bit me would it do much damage?
> 
> Thread topic 6 : Do people get their PP dogs to bite homeless people to make sure they bite for real?
> 
> Thats got to be of some help


Gold!!!


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## Michael Murphy

Christopher Jones said:


> I guess we could also come up with a list of Michael type thread titles incase he is needing help with some. Heres some of mine.
> Thread topic 1 : If a KNPV and an NVBK malinois got into a dog fight which one would win?
> 
> Thread topic 2 : Is it better to have a dog target vital parts of the body like Jugular veins?
> 
> Thread topic 3 : Should I teach my dog how to fight with other dogs just incase he needs to defend me against a pittbull attack?
> 
> Thread topic 4 : Why do people do IPO when they can do KNPV or Ring?
> 
> Thread topic 5 : If a small Malinois bit me would it do much damage?
> 
> Thread topic 6 : Do people get their PP dogs to bite homeless people to make sure they bite for real?
> 
> Thats got to be of some help


this actually made me laugh


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## Dave Martin

christopher jones said:


> i guess we could also come up with a list of michael type thread titles incase he is needing help with some. Heres some of mine.
> Thread topic 1 : If a knpv and an nvbk malinois got into a dog fight which one would win?
> 
> Thread topic 2 : Is it better to have a dog target vital parts of the body like jugular veins?
> 
> Thread topic 3 : Should i teach my dog how to fight with other dogs just incase he needs to defend me against a pittbull attack?
> 
> Thread topic 4 : Why do people do ipo when they can do knpv or ring?
> 
> Thread topic 5 : If a small malinois bit me would it do much damage?
> 
> Thread topic 6 : Do people get their pp dogs to bite homeless people to make sure they bite for real?
> 
> Thats got to be of some help


lmao!


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## David Winners

Matt Vandart said:


> Ok so I decided to start a thread whereby MM can actually get some help with his pup. what I suggest is people do some vids with pups of about the same age and what we are doing with them in natural non edited training sessions so he can see all. Not 'Look how freaking awesome my pup is vids' but just normal stuff we do with our puppies around the house on a daily basis.
> If anyone want'd to post club training vids of pups around the age of his then that would be fantastic also.
> Why am I doing this?
> 1: Cos I think he and his pup need help and I think we should give them it.
> 2: I'm reading alot of 'good advice' and sheet on his thread but seeing **** all evidence of anyone actually putting it into practice to show him (and us) that they actually know what they are doing and how to do it.
> 3: We can ALL see a bit of our younger selves in Micheal and anyone that doesn't admit that is lying. I could have done with alot more help from internet people than I got rather than flaming (but that doberman folk for you....) and I don't see any reason or logic in a continuation of that mentality.
> 4: I can empathise with Micheal and his Club problem.
> 
> Any and all constructive criticism about anything I do in my vids is appreciated and will also help MM.
> If you want to post any shite about Micheal and his pup rather than constructive stuff just Fck off to another thread and keep this one positive.
> 
> Here is my first Vid, just a bit of buggering about with Alice my 15 week old mali Pup in the kitchen as it is absolutely pouring down outside (not relevant but her Pedigree is full of KNPV) and yes she is named after Alice on here, lol, well that and its an Anagram of Sali (in welsh, Alis) to keep shit simples.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZTeBCrP_GM&feature=youtu.be
> 
> After the vid she went back in her crate, she'll be out again laterz.
> 
> Anyway I hope others join in.


I'll play along Matt. I want to see Michael succeed.

I kind of feel bad critiquing your video. No offense intended. I know I learn a lot from watching myself, and it's humbling sometimes. I don't have any video to share myself, so I guess you will have to take my advice for what it's worth.

I think you have a nice puppy, and are doing well by her. It was a pretty good session. Here is my opinion of your session, but we are all our own individual trainers. YMMV

*Good that you show her to be calm before letting her out of the crate.

*Buy a cutting board, your counter top will thank you. I also cut up plenty of food in advance so the training session isn't broken up, potentially having the dog check out. Not a big deal in your kitchen, but could be a problem in your front yard.

2:23 reward hand moves before mark during focus training. The dog was marked while looking at your hand. Again at 2:41

3:04 down from the sit is not a kick out down so the dog is moving forward. You are giving good for duration, but then the dog gets up prior to the mark. Dog is marked for breaking a down and following your hand.

3:50 only goods for sits with no marks. You are rewarding first, then saying good with no marking of proper position.

4:10 during focus training, the dog is looking at your hands because of marking that behavior previously (2:23 & 2:41)

4:24 marked while looking away

4:34 you used a negative reward mark here, but didn't reset the dog. I recommend putting your hands behind you and making it obvious that the rules were broken, then resetting the dog through movement before asking for the behavior again.

4:49 a couple good downs from stand, but I would move into the dog more to keep that forward motion in check. Forward motion in the down turns into creeping when the drive level goes up.

6:18 forward motion on the down from sit.

7:09 marked out of position sit at heel.

In general, I see a lot of behaviors named before they are being performed properly. I tend to lure it until I love it, shorten my gestures until they are very quick and the dog is responding properly 90% of the time, then I add the verbal cues right before the abbreviated gesture. I'm a Michael Ellis system trainer so this is how I approach marker training.


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## Kevin Cyr

Christopher Jones said:


> I guess we could also come up with a list of Michael type thread titles incase he is needing help with some. Heres some of mine.
> Thread topic 1 : If a KNPV and an NVBK malinois got into a dog fight which one would win?
> 
> Thread topic 2 : Is it better to have a dog target vital parts of the body like Jugular veins?
> 
> Thread topic 3 : Should I teach my dog how to fight with other dogs just incase he needs to defend me against a pittbull attack?
> 
> Thread topic 4 : Why do people do IPO when they can do KNPV or Ring?
> 
> Thread topic 5 : If a small Malinois bit me would it do much damage?
> 
> Thread topic 6 : Do people get their PP dogs to bite homeless people to make sure they bite for real?
> 
> Thats got to be of some help


1) The one with the bigger head
2) Yeah sure, but what if the dog can't get to that part?
3) Can't defend against Pit Bulls they always win in game
4) Less exercises?
5) Nah just kick him off
6) Absolutely!!!!


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## Bob Scott

Alice huh! That must be one BAB. Luvs ya Alice! :grin: :wink: 
Matt, if I may! When you let the pup out I would open and close the crate door a few times, eventually all the way open. When you did give her the ok you pulled the door open quickly at the same time. That timing and speed can easily teach her that the movement of the gate opening is the ok and not your verbal ok. Make sense? 
Open gate wide.
Hold gate still.
Wait a sec then give the ok. 
Timing, timing, timing!
I say this not knowing exactly where you at in her training so don't let my comments rush you. 

Old school (not necessarily a bad thing)) we would just catch the pup's head in the gate till it learned to wait for the ok.


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## Matt Vandart

Bob Scott said:


> Alice huh! That must be one BAB. Luvs ya Alice! :grin: :wink:
> Matt, if I may! When you let the pup out I would open and close the crate door a few times, eventually all the way open. When you did give her the ok you pulled the door open quickly at the same time. That timing and speed can easily teach her that the movement of the gate opening is the ok and not your verbal ok. Make sense?
> Open gate wide.
> Hold gate still.
> Wait a sec then give the ok.
> Timing, timing, timing!
> I say this not knowing exactly where you at in her training so don't let my comments rush you.
> 
> Old school (not necessarily a bad thing)) we would just catch the pup's head in the gate till it learned to wait for the ok. *Lol I do that but for PC reasons I didn't do it then, these vids go on my facebook also and I wouldn't want to upset Zak Gheorge now would I....lol*


Thanks Bob!


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## Matt Vandart

David Winners said:


> I'll play along Matt. I want to see Michael succeed.
> 
> I kind of feel bad critiquing your video. No offense intended. I know I learn a lot from watching myself, and it's humbling sometimes. I don't have any video to share myself, so I guess you will have to take my advice for what it's worth. *No worries, that's the aim of the game!*
> 
> I think you have a nice puppy, and are doing well by her. It was a pretty good session. Here is my opinion of your session, but we are all our own individual trainers. YMMV
> 
> *Good that you show her to be calm before letting her out of the crate.
> 
> *Buy a cutting board, your counter top will thank you. I also cut up plenty of food in advance so the training session isn't broken up, potentially having the dog check out. Not a big deal in your kitchen, but could be a problem in your front yard.
> 
> 2:23 reward hand moves before mark during focus training. The dog was marked while looking at your hand. Again at 2:41
> 
> 3:04 down from the sit is not a kick out down so the dog is moving forward. You are giving good for duration, but then the dog gets up prior to the mark. Dog is marked for breaking a down and following your hand.
> 
> 3:50 only goods for sits with no marks. You are rewarding first, then saying good with no marking of proper position.
> 
> 4:10 during focus training, the dog is looking at your hands because of marking that behavior previously (2:23 & 2:41) *Yes, that is why I started putting my hands out and (attempting) to get her focus back on my face.*
> 
> 4:24 marked while looking away #-o
> 
> 4:34 you used a negative reward mark here, but didn't reset the dog. I recommend putting your hands behind you and making it obvious that the rules were broken, then resetting the dog through movement before asking for the behavior again. *See above comment, I shall try with my hands behind my back *
> 
> 4:49 a couple good downs from stand, but I would move into the dog more to keep that forward motion in check. Forward motion in the down turns into creeping when the drive level goes up.
> 
> 6:18 forward motion on the down from sit.
> 
> 7:09 marked out of position sit at heel. *Yeah you can hear me say "that'll do", I figured I would shape it to stop her from checking out, i.e rewarding for an effort.*
> 
> In general, I see a lot of behaviors named before they are being performed properly. I tend to lure it until I love it, shorten my gestures until they are very quick and the dog is responding properly 90% of the time, then I add the verbal cues right before the abbreviated gesture. I'm a Michael Ellis system trainer so this is how I approach marker training. *This I shall remedy imediately!*


Thanks dude! I am new to marker training so it is still a learning curve for me, I really appreciate your post, please do more in my future vids :mrgreen:

I also want to see Micheal succeed.


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## Matt Vandart

christopher jones said:


> i guess we could also come up with a list of michael type thread titles incase he is needing help with some. Heres some of mine.
> Thread topic 1 : If a knpv and an nvbk malinois got into a dog fight which one would win?
> 
> Thread topic 2 : Is it better to have a dog target vital parts of the body like jugular veins?
> 
> Thread topic 3 : Should i teach my dog how to fight with other dogs just incase he needs to defend me against a pittbull attack?
> 
> Thread topic 4 : Why do people do ipo when they can do knpv or ring?
> 
> Thread topic 5 : If a small malinois bit me would it do much damage?
> 
> Thread topic 6 : Do people get their pp dogs to bite homeless people to make sure they bite for real?
> 
> Thats got to be of some help


rofl


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## Clarence Pierre

That's pretty f'n cool Matt V. You go guy, way to make things productive.


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## Matt Vandart

Thanks dude.
Ok I finally got a bit of drive for the ball out of Alice. Short vid, sorry about the shaky vid, my kid is sick and on the sofa so he got to be Speilberg in comfort today.
First part Alis with a ball, then Sali under distraction, lol:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHkgT_7Z6l0&feature=youtu.be


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## Danielle Whitham

I'm really enjoying this thread and the contributions, so even if Michael isn't interested there are some of us who are! Thanks for sharing the videos to those that are.


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## Doug Zaga

Danielle Whitham said:


> I'm really enjoying this thread and the contributions, so even if Michael isn't interested there are some of us who are! Thanks for sharing the videos to those that are.


That is because he has been attending the SchH club 3 times/week and meeting with the TD two other days a week.


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## Danielle Whitham

Doug Zaga said:


> That is because he has been attending the SchH club 3 times/week and meeting with the TD two other days a week.


Oh, I don't really care what Michael's doing. I mean, that's awesome that he's active with a club, I just meant that other people are reading this too. So to those who are implying this is a pointless thread, it's not. :mrgreen: I enjoy watching young dog training videos. Sometimes I come across something neat I want to talk to my trainer about, or try, that's all.


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## Tiago Fontes

Doug Zaga said:


> That is because he has been attending the SchH club 3 times/week and meeting with the TD two other days a week.



I wonder if the TD doesnt have a huge migraine by now! (jk)

But seriously, it's been nice to see the kind of work people do with their pups.


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## Daniel Lybbert

Here is my puppy Cocaine.Its the 5 time I have trained with the decoy. It is also his first time he decoyed at all. He has a puppy the same age so we are just trading work and he is learning what to do. The puppy has just been on tugs and leg sleeves. He has bit the suit once or twice just for fun.
http://youtu.be/wfQjRb3tNLw


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## Tiago Fontes

Daniel Lybbert said:


> Here is my puppy Cocaine.Its the 5 time I have trained with the decoy. It is also his first time he decoyed at all. He has a puppy the same age so we are just trading work and he is learning what to do. The puppy has just been on tugs and leg sleeves. He has bit the suit once or twice just for fun.
> http://youtu.be/wfQjRb3tNLw



Nice puppy. How old?


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## Daniel Lybbert

about 4 months


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## Joby Becker

Doug Zaga said:


> That is because he has been attending the SchH club 3 times/week and meeting with the TD two other days a week.


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## Matt Vandart

Like it, nice pup


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## Matt Vandart

More nonsense trying to get a bit of stability of position out of the box:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7nB_ODajmk


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## Catherine Gervin

Daniel Lybbert said:


> Here is my puppy Cocaine.Its the 5 time I have trained with the decoy. It is also his first time he decoyed at all. He has a puppy the same age so we are just trading work and he is learning what to do. The puppy has just been on tugs and leg sleeves. He has bit the suit once or twice just for fun.
> http://youtu.be/wfQjRb3tNLw


i also enjoyed the round Pug strolling around in the background, totally ignoring the fuss the puppy is making and ignoring the struggling going on, very "Yes, yes, you're getting the bad guys, but are there any snacks?"


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## Matt Vandart

Ha! I saw that too, little dogs like that are awesome. You ever watched any of stonnie Dennis' vids? If not you should check them out, he has even better walk on cameo apearances


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## Catherine Gervin

Matt Vandart said:


> Ha! I saw that too, little dogs like that are awesome. You ever watched any of stonnie Dennis' vids? If not you should check them out, he has even better walk on cameo apearances


this is pathetic, i know, but how do i look those up? can i use the search bar at the top of the site?
thanx


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## Joby Becker

Catherine Gervin said:


> this is pathetic, i know, but how do i look those up? can i use the search bar at the top of the site?
> thanx


HA HA HA

you should be using GOOGLE....to look up everything. Just be aware google will own you, although they probably do already, I have already sacrificed myself..

http://www.youtube.com/user/StonnieDennis


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## Tiago Fontes

Joby Becker said:


> HA HA HA
> 
> you should be using GOOGLE....to look up everything. Just be aware google will own you, although they probably do already, I have already sacrificed myself..
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/user/StonnieDennis



Oh boy.... LOLOLOL


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## Catherine Gervin

Joby Becker said:


> HA HA HA
> 
> you should be using GOOGLE....to look up everything. Just be aware google will own you, although they probably do already, I have already sacrificed myself..
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/user/StonnieDennis


even one so computer-inert knew something was wrong when the anti-spyware wouldn't load onto the computer because Google wouldn't allow it...thanx for the help, though


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## Matt Vandart

Tbh Michael should just tune into stonnies channel, there's loads of good stuff on there.


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## Noel Long

I also want to thank Matt. You are are the kinda guy that makes the dog community a great place. Getting someone to film your socialization walk was really a step above. Thanks, man!


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## Matt Vandart

No worries dude.


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