# Bouvier or Riesenschnauzer??



## Don Rumsberg

Which and why?


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## Dwyras Brown

Which and why for what?


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## Mike Scheiber

Don Rumsberg said:


> Which and why?


Ive seen damn few good Bouvs and never seen a good Snowzer only legend so why bother. Stack the deck and get a breed that's got a good pool to chose from.
I prefer not doing any thing with one hand tied behind my back
So why bother???


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## Carolyn Herle

Yes there are very few really good Bouviers but they do exist. 

More importantly, what do you want the dog to do?

Carolyn Herle
www.herlandbouviers.ca




Mike Scheiber said:


> Ive seen damn few good Bouvs and never seen a good Snowzer only legend so why bother. Stack the deck and get a breed that's got a good pool to chose from.
> I prefer not doing any thing with one hand tied behind my back


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## Mike Scheiber

Carolyn Herle said:


> Yes there are very few really good Bouviers but they do exist.
> 
> More importantly, what do you want the dog to do?
> 
> Carolyn Herle
> www.herlandbouviers.ca


We had a guy from Canada attending a class here at the University of Minnesota for several months he came out and trained with us wile he stayed here, this was several years back. His name was Brian Curry he had a couple of nice Bouvier one was a female that was exceptionally not so nice :mrgreen:


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## Carolyn Herle

Yes, the male Ali placed second at the Canadian GSD championships and did exceptionally well in all competitions-very consistent high levels of performance and a real treat to watch.

Strong females Bouviers are very rare. I'll keep mine!




Mike Scheiber said:


> We had a guy from Canada attending a class here at the University of Minnesota for several months he came out and trained with us wile he stayed here, this was several years back. His name was Brian Curry he had a couple of nice Bouvier one was a female that was exceptionally not so nice :mrgreen:


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## Richard Rutt

if you want to see a video of a good dog, who just happens to be a Bouvier, and a female. Doing one of the most difficult protection sports, Campagne. This is at level 2, the old Campagne 350 and the dog scored very well and earned an excellent rating. The best part is this dog was bred and born in the US. This is the 2nd bitch that I've seen from the same person, that i would consider a good dog, way to go Tashi. here's the link to the video and the link on WDF http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f23/good-campagne-video-19283/


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## Carolyn Herle

Dixie is also a young bitch and is obviously doing very well. Congrats to the breeder Tashi!




Richard Rutt said:


> if you want to see a video of a good dog, who just happens to be a Bouvier, and a female. Doing one of the most difficult protection sports, Campagne. This is at level 2, the old Campagne 350 and the dog scored very well and earned an excellent rating. The best part is this dog was bred and born in the US. This is the 2nd bitch that I've seen from the same person, that i would consider a good dog, way to go Tashi. here's the link to the video and the link on WDF http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f23/good-campagne-video-19283/


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## Mike Scheiber

Carolyn Herle said:


> Yes, the male Ali placed second at the Canadian GSD championships and did exceptionally well in all competitions-very consistent high levels of performance and a real treat to watch.
> 
> Strong females Bouviers are very rare. I'll keep mine!


Maybe I was mistaken on the gender it was a couple of years ago but I do remember the dogs name and it was Ali.
Brian was a good guy I hope to run into him again some day.


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## Christopher Smith

Mike Scheiber said:


> Ive seen damn few good Bouvs and never seen a good Snowzer only legend so why bother.


Ironically my experience is the opposite. I've seen at least a half dozen RS that were fantastic, especially in protection. And I have only seen one Bouv that was worth a second look...and he was a Bouv world champion. I've seen a lot of Bouvs on tape that look good. But I've also seen videos of bigfoot.


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## Eric Shearer

I have worked quite a few Schnauzers and in my experiences they have to be handled with care especially when young as they are very defensive and often they need to mature into their threat display. In the begining their bark is worse than their bite... and they are kind of goofy. I have never worked with a Bouv. but here is a good one handled by Butch henderson and being worked by Ron Marshall... 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quAqOCDtiGE

A few more of some Schnauzers I have worked with... 
These are old videos but here they are for your viewing pleasure...lol 
This is me being instructed by Dean Calderon working with BIll Weber (R.I.P) and his dog Charlie.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uV8vjDSYC7M

And this one of me working with Dan Machamer and Luther...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESYvHH-qgRw

Both dogs were not titles then and are now titled to SchH. 3 which i take zero credit for except some occasional helper work here and there.


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## kevin holford

I think there are more good Bouvs out there than what most people think. The problem is most people are not patient enough to wait for a Bouv or Giant to mature, so they quickly toss them a side and call them shit and move on to the shepards + Bouvs cost more$$$
I love Giants too, but I think the choices are far more limited than the Bouv. I love the deep history that the Bouv has too. 
If you have patience and can figure them out, get a Bouv, there isn't anyhting the other breeds are doing that a Bouv or Giant can't do!
DVG nationals this year at ScH II, a Bouv was 1st and 3rd or 4th. Both dogs were 5 and 6 years old.


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## kevin holford

Ther are still Bouvs doing KNPV, not as many as the old days. Keep in mind that Bouvs do not get extra points because they are bigger than mals or dutchies and they don't give them a handcap because they are fuzzy; they do the same exercises in KNPV as the mals and dutchies.


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## Alan Fielding

Thats right Carolyn- Brian Curry and Ali did do very well at the Canadian Nationals (2008?) , In Fact if I am not mistaken he was the #1 dog ( regardless of breed) based on performance for that year in the GSSCC. I think,there would be many more Bouviers in Competition if only there were good trainers that would give the breed a chance. Carolyn has trialled several Bouviers to SchH3 and her current young female is SchH2.My current Bouvier is SchH1 and I plan to finish him this year.Good Bouviers can still be had , you just have to know where to look.


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## Don Rumsberg

Alan Fielding said:


> Thats right Carolyn- Brian Curry and Ali did do very well at the Canadian Nationals (2008?) , In Fact if I am not mistaken he was the #1 dog ( regardless of breed) based on performance for that year in the GSSCC. I think,there would be many more Bouviers in Competition if only there were good trainers that would give the breed a chance. Carolyn has trialled several Bouviers to SchH3 and her current young female is SchH2.My current Bouvier is SchH1 and I plan to finish him this year.Good Bouviers can still be had , you just have to know where to look.



Excellent feedback and posts, please keep them coming.

I am totally unfamiliar with Campane. Never even heard of it before.

Looked like a Canadian 'KNPV/French Ring'...?


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## Don Turnipseed

I would suspect some good representatives of both breeds can be found still. A friend of mine, Ed Weiss, had put Sch III's on the giant's and has mentioned one or two that he titled and got rid of because they were way to civil. Ed, imported the giants he worked with and imports nothing but the best. Ed has since titled to Sch III, airedales he has imported and actually imported the dam of the East German pup I have now. Ed was one of the founders of the GS club that is there today also. Ed, Tom Rose and a Mary ??? also co authered two book during his GS days. One was "Dogs That Love and Protect" and "Protection Dogs for You and Your Family". These books were done more during his GS days.


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## kevin holford

Go to the working Bouv nationals in Oct in Va Beach or head east, I'm in Pa, Tashi is in Va, Howard Gains is in De if you want to see some Bouvs... Stay away from the Canadian Bouvs; when's the last time something good came out of Ca-naid- D- a?

Lol:mrgreen:- hehehe. Jk


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## Alan Fielding

FYI- I think Carolyn at Herland Kennel(In Canada) has a promising litter planed for early this year . Don, you may want to contact her to discuss Bouviers , she is very knowledgable on the breed and a very good trainer.


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## Jerry Cudahy

Robin Carver, an American National was at one time located in Ontario Canada. She was also at one time the pres of the Canadian Bouv club.

Her focus was on show dogs.

But she did import a very good male bouv from Holland into her kennel here in Canada.

I worked this dog along with several of his sons. No problem, they were decent working prospects.

Her 100% show dogs were a different story.

I know Robin was very interested in improving her base stock to be better working dogs.

Unfortunately, for the Canadian fanciers. Robin returned to the United States and located in the State of Florida.

I have always wondered if she continued her program.


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## Howard Gaines III

I have owned both, and I currently have 2 Bouviers. Very similar but the Bouv has a deeper chest and is a bit thicker. If the odd ball breeds is your thing, you need to seem them work and stay with working lines stuff. Know the genetic issues from the lines you are checking.

Good and bad stuff can be found...


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## kevin holford

GloK
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9E23kCwq3xo

My fav Bouv video/ KNPV
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xC5fJ3JoDzk

Bill, GloK's grandpa
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xC5fJ3JoDzk

Duke
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANCAaC2iSiY


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## Carolyn Herle

We have a young GS at the GSDC of Calgary who was imported from Czech (I think). The handler's father trained several to SchH 3 in the 70's and is now a Canadian schutzhund judge. The dog was quite a handful for a novice handler but she has good guidance from her dad. The dog was just a youthful butthead when I last saw him and I look forward to seeing him this summer when he has some mental maturity. He looked pretty neat-lots of fire but no containment!



Eric Shearer said:


> I have worked quite a few Schnauzers and in my experiences they have to be handled with care especially when young as they are very defensive and often they need to mature into their threat display. In the begining their bark is worse than their bite... and they are kind of goofy. I have never worked with a Bouv. but here is a good one handled by Butch henderson and being worked by Ron Marshall...
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quAqOCDtiGE
> 
> A few more of some Schnauzers I have worked with...
> These are old videos but here they are for your viewing pleasure...lol
> This is me being instructed by Dean Calderon working with BIll Weber (R.I.P) and his dog Charlie.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uV8vjDSYC7M
> 
> And this one of me working with Dan Machamer and Luther...
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESYvHH-qgRw
> 
> Both dogs were not titles then and are now titled to SchH. 3 which i take zero credit for except some occasional helper work here and there.


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## Carolyn Herle

Alan,
Thanks for the extra titles but I have only taken one to a SchH3-the first working one I had. She was a full sister to the sire of Bill whose video Kevin posted. I was a fairly green to schutzhund handler, with a helper that knew nothing but was willing. How I titled her with all the mistakes we made is a testament to how good the dog was! I never have many dogs-usually only one in training at a time. This darn working for a paycheque interferes with my dog life.




Alan Fielding said:


> Thats right Carolyn- Brian Curry and Ali did do very well at the Canadian Nationals (2008?) , In Fact if I am not mistaken he was the #1 dog ( regardless of breed) based on performance for that year in the GSSCC. I think,there would be many more Bouviers in Competition if only there were good trainers that would give the breed a chance. Carolyn has trialled several Bouviers to SchH3 and her current young female is SchH2.My current Bouvier is SchH1 and I plan to finish him this year.Good Bouviers can still be had , you just have to know where to look.


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## Tracey Hughes

I would love to try either of the breeds or an Airedale next. 

I had a Lakenois a while back and fell in love with the “beard”

I have had the chance to see a couple of good examples of each and just admire a good working DOG, breed is secondary to me.

Nice to see some more quality Canadian breeders out there. \\/


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## Tracey Hughes

Alan-

I competed at the 2007 Nationals, Brian and Ali came 2nd that year.
We were the only 2 “alternate” breeds that year, I had my old Malinois.

Ali is a super dog. Look forward to meeting up with you this year at the trials. I’ll be looking out for your Bouvier.


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## Wawashkashi Tashi

Tracey Hughes said:


> Ali is a super dog.


Ali was "the clicker-trained" Bouv, if I'm not mistaken?? Did real well for a couple years, then >POOF<, Gone. :-( -Anybody know whatever happened to him?

Thanks for the compliments Rick.  But Bill deserves the "Bouvier credit".. it's been his program for 15+yrs. I don't even _like_ Bouviers! :-$







<jk>


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## Wawashkashi Tashi

Richard Rutt said:


> if you want to see a video of a good dog, who just happens to be a Bouvier, and a female. Doing one of the most difficult protection sports, Campagne. This is at level 2, the old Campagne 350 and the dog scored very well and earned an excellent rating. The best part is this dog was bred and born in the US. This is the 2nd bitch that I've seen from the same person, that i would consider a good dog, way to go Tashi. here's the link to the video and the link on WDF http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f23/good-campagne-video-19283/


Oops! I also meant to include (in case you were interested Rick) that Dixie's Granddam Anga is a littersister to Ness' Grandsire Angus. Anga is 13yo now & we still take her out for some "fun bites" here & there.









Angus:


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Wawashkashi Tashi said:


> Ali was "the clicker-trained" Bouv, if I'm not mistaken?? Did real well for a couple years, then >POOF<, Gone. :-( -Anybody know whatever happened to him?
> 
> Thanks for the compliments Rick.  But Bill deserves the "Bouvier credit".. it's been his program for 15+yrs. I don't even _like_ Bouviers! :-$
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> <jk>


There was an issue with competing at the world/national level because he is cropped/docked, I think.

Terrasita


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## Carolyn Herle

Ummm...he got old! It happens to the best of us.:lol:



Wawashkashi Tashi said:


> Ali was "the clicker-trained" Bouv, if I'm not mistaken?? Did real well for a couple years, then >POOF<, Gone. :-( -Anybody know whatever happened to him?
> 
> Thanks for the compliments Rick.  But Bill deserves the "Bouvier credit".. it's been his program for 15+yrs. I don't even _like_ Bouviers! :-$
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> <jk>


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## Wawashkashi Tashi

Carolyn Herle said:


> Ummm...he got old! It happens to the best of us.:lol:


Tell me about it!  :lol:

I just meant that he seemed to be doing really well, but only for about 2 years(?), then completely disappeared. Usually when dogs drop off the radar like that it's for a specific reason, like serious injury, etc. Are there any offspring of his doing anything, do you know? -Just curious if anyone knows what happened to him_ before_ he got old.


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## Tracey Hughes

Hi Tashi-

Always enjoy your photos, both the Bouvs and the BBs!

Ali was 6 years old when he had that very successful year, 2nd at GSSCC Nationals and then 1st at the Bouvier World Championships.

I believe he was at the 2008 Championship as well, but can’t find the results for that. In 2009 he placed 10th at the Nationals in Canada with a 272.

I have only seen one pup off him..looked promising, but I think the person quit the sport now.

Clicker training??…yikes #-o


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## Geoff Empey

Since you are talking about Bouviers. Have any of you heard about the Bouvier des Ardennes? I ran across it yesterday from the link on Belgian dogs that Jim Engel posted yesterday.

Looks interesting. 55lbs looks like a Bouvier des Flandres with pricked ears and a bit like a Laekenois with no tail. I wonder how they work? 

http://www.belgiandogs.info/BelgianDogs/Belgian_Breeds/Entries/2010/5/21_Bouvier_des_Ardennes.html


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## Carolyn Herle

Tashi,
I think Ali was about 5 when he got his 3 and began cleaning up the awards at the regional level. He retired in 2009 likely about 8 years old. 
That is a shorter career at top level than a malinois so probably why he seemed to you to disappear!

Brian and Ali are members of the GSDC of Calgary where I train. I believe he has ipo titled offspring in Europe but the bitches in NA bred to him were not stellar.
He was one of the most consistently good dogs I have had the pleasure of watching train and trial. Even when he did his BH, you knew that this was a dog to watch for. Ali still gets to come out and play on club days to show the newbies how it should be done.



Wawashkashi Tashi said:


> Tell me about it!  :lol:
> 
> I just meant that he seemed to be doing really well, but only for about 2 years(?), then completely disappeared. Usually when dogs drop off the radar like that it's for a specific reason, like serious injury, etc. Are there any offspring of his doing anything, do you know? -Just curious if anyone knows what happened to him_ before_ he got old.


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## Wawashkashi Tashi

Carolyn Herle said:


> Tashi,
> I think Ali was about 5 when he got his 3 and began cleaning up the awards at the regional level. He retired in 2009 likely about 8 years old.
> That is a shorter career at top level than a malinois so probably why he seemed to you to disappear!
> 
> Brian and Ali are members of the GSDC of Calgary where I train. I believe he has ipo titled offspring in Europe but the bitches in NA bred to him were not stellar.
> He was one of the most consistently good dogs I have had the pleasure of watching train and trial. Even when he did his BH, you knew that this was a dog to watch for. Ali still gets to come out and play on club days to show the newbies how it should be done.


Thanks for the info on him.. it's nice to hear he's doing well. And I always like hearing about the "old dogs" getting to come out & have some fun-chomps.
We had the same issue w/ the studding on a fabulous dog that Bill imported & co-owned, getting bred to some "eh" bitches. It's hard to cook up some really nice working dogs when you only have half the ingredients... #-o


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## Wawashkashi Tashi

Geoff Empey said:


> Since you are talking about Bouviers. Have any of you heard about the Bouvier des Ardennes? I ran across it yesterday from the link on Belgian dogs that Jim Engel posted yesterday.
> Looks interesting. 55lbs looks like a Bouvier des Flandres with pricked ears and a bit like a Laekenois with no tail. I wonder how they work?
> http://www.belgiandogs.info/BelgianDogs/Belgian_Breeds/Entries/2010/5/21_Bouvier_des_Ardennes.html


Looks similar to this..? :lol:









I like to poke fun that there's des Ardennes behind this dog Shady's sire's side of the family (which is French lines). He's a litter brother to Dixie, the Campagne 2 bitch. 
(Shady is on the suit now.. I just don't have any recent pics of him.)


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## Geoff Empey

Yes Wawashkashi that's the colouring and structure though they come in other colours too. I bet there was some fun footage on the decoy's hero cam! Are his ears pricked? I find all these older, rare and not popular breeds very interesting. Especially if they can work! 

Colouring like the one in your pic .. 










Other .. 










Puppies and what looks almost brindle ..


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## Mike Scheiber

=; Not again the possum dog :lol:


Wawashkashi Tashi said:


> Looks similar to this..? :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I like to poke fun that there's des Ardennes behind this dog Shady's sire's side of the family (which is French lines). He's a litter brother to Dixie, the Campagne 2 bitch.
> (Shady is on the suit now.. I just don't have any recent pics of him.)


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## Christopher Jones

I looked into the Giants along time ago and from what I turned up the best dogs and working bloodlines came from the Eastern Block, namely the old DDR and Czech. 
A friend of mine who was a police dog trainer in Russia/Ukraine said that they were well thought of in Russia as well. He maintained they had a similar character and were similar to train as a Dobermann.
I think Armin Winkler had an old DDR Giant?


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## Tracey Hughes

Geoff,

There is a breeder of Bouv d. Ardennes in Germany
http://bouvierdesardennes.de/


Here is a clip of the above kennel’s female doing a VPG 3 routine-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGJvj9ARUfM


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## Jeff Batiste

Don't have any experience with Bouviers, but I have had the opportunity to work a club member/friends Giant Schnauzer frequently, that works really well in all phases and I like the dog a lot. Quentin von Grobis Meute SchH3, IPO3, AD, FH2, Kor+/3 owned by Montel Brown http://www.leadingedgekennels.com/quentin.html. Nice GS, good aggression in protection, nice grips, tracks well and his obedience is pretty sharp. 

If I were to get a GS to work I would certainly use this GS as the benchmark for working abilities.. Definitley a breed that I would own I like their overall temperment, and drives my only hesitation would be the rate at which they mature. But overall if there are more like Quentin i would certainly work with this breed. Hope that helps!


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## Wawashkashi Tashi

Geoff Empey said:


> Yes Wawashkashi that's the colouring and structure though they come in other colours too. I bet there was some fun footage on the decoy's hero cam! Are his ears pricked? I find all these older, rare and not popular breeds very interesting. Especially if they can work!
> Colouring like the one in your pic ..
> Puppies and what looks almost brindle ..


I'm sure I have the footage from the cam somewhere -I'll see if there was anything good on it. 
There were 2 brindle pups in that litter too. I'm sure there's some pics of them somewhere too, although they were "pet quality" pups (one is doing Agility). Some of their collective ears didn't *quite* prick, but they often tried awfully hard.. some of them just stayed "drop down" as per normal. Shady's ears are cropped. If you look at Dixie's, she has the "Flying Nun" earset, which could also be coming down from her grandsire Santos, who we also owned. He was basically a "riot control dog".. loved me, Bill & his folks. Was homicidal towards pretty much everyone else. *Extremely* tough nasty dog, but just doting to the people he did love. IMO when the longer-coated dogs have the same type of fly-away ears, the weight of the hair really helps keep 'em down.
Santos:


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## Wawashkashi Tashi

Mike Scheiber said:


> =; Not again the possum dog :lol:


LOL!! Thanks A LOT! Now he's known as the Rabid Possum!! :razz:


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## Wawashkashi Tashi

Tracey Hughes said:


> Geoff There is a breeder of Bouv d. Ardennes in Germany
> http://bouvierdesardennes.de/
> Here is a clip of the above kennel’s female doing a VPG 3 routine-
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGJvj9ARUfM


Thanks for your earlier compliment Girl! ;-)
And especially thanks for the link to the video! That little Bouvier is so darned cute!!! The guarantee of the short coat would make them more attractive to more working dog folks, I would imagine.


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## Kadi Thingvall

I had a GS many years ago that I really liked in every way (drives, grips, aggression, etc) except he had a gun issue. It was weird, one I've never seen before or since. You could fire a gun around him, and see no noticeable reaction at all. Didn't look for the sound, try to run, anything. But all his drive just disappeared. Once the gun went off he was done. We probably could have made him work in aggression afterwards, but the prey disappeared, and since I was focusing on sport work I wasn't going to go that route. I've worked with dogs with gun issues before, but not like this one.

Only had a little experience with Bouv's, and that was many years ago. Did decoy Rick Maple's FRIII "Johnny" a few times when our clubs got together, but that's about it.

I'd play with a GS again, and maybe a Bouv. But probably a GS just because once stripped or cut the coat is shorter.


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## Wawashkashi Tashi

Christopher Jones said:


> I looked into the Giants along time ago and from what I turned up the best dogs and working bloodlines came from the Eastern Block, namely the old DDR and Czech.
> A friend of mine who was a police dog trainer in Russia/Ukraine said that they were well thought of in Russia as well. He maintained they had a similar character and were similar to train as a Dobermann.
> I think Armin Winkler had an old DDR Giant?


Bill used to work a DE Patrol K9 GS named Bandit, who was imported (shortly before the wall came down) from an East German Police kennel. That dog was truly a *Beast*!!! We have video of him on VHS.. I keep meaning to get it on something digital so I can post some of it. Haven't seen any really good GS since, though Bill has worked a few around here.


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## Keith Jenkins

I have a female RS and though she didn't quite turn out like I had hoped she is a tracking machine. A virtual Hoover on legs. If I found another RS that I liked I'd have no problem with adding one in the future. They are excellent trackers, their obedience can be right up there with the best of the a-typical breeds that do any protection work. I would say they can be inclined to be a bit chewy on the grips but I would say more times than not it's because they like to compress and not really a nerve issue.


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## Tracey Hughes

Tashi-

Loved the photo of the fawn Bouv! And you deserve the compliments. I am a fan of your dogs


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## Benjamin Maulis

Dutch East Dogs has a litter of Bouviers now where the sire and dame are both Sch III titled and NAWBA champions (Sire in 2008 and Dame in 2010). To further qualify a dog, I think you would want to be specific about what it is for. Ask to join the Working Bouvier des Flandres group on Facebook (I am not an admin).


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## Carolyn Herle

Benjamin,
I was at both Championships. I wouldn't take either dog home and they wouldn't want mine. Completely different dogs.

Carolyn



Benjamin Maulis said:


> Dutch East Dogs has a litter of Bouviers now where the sire and dame are both Sch III titled and NAWBA champions (Sire in 2008 and Dame in 2010). To further qualify a dog, I think you would want to be specific about what it is for. Ask to join the Working Bouvier des Flandres group on Facebook (I am not an admin).


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## Val Schwarzmueller

Both of these breeds are awesome, if they come from the original European working lines. There are only a handful of good Giants in the USA today. They are all from Germany including my own dogs. These Giants represent the USA in the ISPU world champion ship. There grips are firm, the out every time and their drive is extremely high. Obedience is tuff with the independent thinkers. Lots of foundation work is required and strong leadership. Not a good dog for beginners. 

The American Schnauzers are watered down:roll: by the Show lines and good looks are all they have to offer. No offense. Schnauzers are mostly in Schutzhund or IPO and not so much in the ring sport. Scores above 280 are the norm. The Pinscher- Schnauzer Club of Germany has 8000 members with 20.000 dogs many of whom compete in IPO. 

The Giant is a great tracker without a doubt. My Gandalf von Elberfeld did FH 2 tracks in training at age 14 month. The bite work is the other strong side of the East German working Schnauzer. The best ones score 99-100 points with ease. \\/The Bouvier is more often found in the herding sports. And there are fewer of them. For bite work my choice is clearly the GS from East German lines. 

Yes, East German lines only:!:

Everything else does not work. East Germany does not exist anymore as a sovereign state and these lines are mostly found today in Germany, Austria, and Czech Republic. In the USA and Canada there are less than 10 breeders that breed under the rules of the PSK and FCI as far as I know. If you one of them let me know, so we can improve the gene pool.=P~ 

Cheers, Val

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aA7X2bvmlXg


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