# Viscious Dog Plane Flight



## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

I may fly my dogs to Costa Rica rather than drive them. I am certain that the dogs, particularly the female, will go nuts when strangers approach their crate.

Has anyone had any experiences with this type situation?


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## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> I may fly my dogs to Costa Rica rather than drive them. I am certain that the dogs, particularly the female, will go nuts when strangers approach their crate.
> 
> Has anyone had any experiences with this type situation?


Isn't that the point of a crate?

Zip tie the door closed, just incase. Maybe put a little note on the dog of the crate.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Ted Efthymiadis said:


> Isn't that the point of a crate?
> 
> Zip tie the door closed, just incase. Maybe put a little note on the dog of the crate.


I understand! Here is the problem. It depends on who you speak to at the airline. I was just on the phone with Continental.

The 800 number for pets told me if the dog was trying to bite through the crate bars they would not take the dog. She then offered the direct line to Continental Airlines cargo in the flight origination city, Seattle.

The rep there said no problem. Who do you believe? :?:


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## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

Get a big crate, put your luggage in with the dog and you won't have to worry about baggage handlers with sticky fingers.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

I heard people give the dogs benedryl to chill out dogs like that for such situations.


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## Lisa Geller (Mar 29, 2007)

The airline can refuse to take the dog --
so even if they take the dog in your hometown, and it is not a connecting flight.
They might refuse to load the plane coming back.
This type of barrier aggression needs to be fixed before you fly the dog.

You could try loading your dog in a crate, hauling him to a airport shuttle and riding him around on that bus. When he will do this without correction, then actually haul him into the airport and home. I have known people to take short one way flights as a test.

good luck -- It's super cool to take your dog on trips like this!

lg


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## Lisa Geller (Mar 29, 2007)

and if you do fly them,
take your own zip ties for locking the crate doors.
Most times when you fly with your dogs you can be with them while they check the crates and dogs for -- whatever they might be carrying.
Then you get to put them in the crate and zip tie it shut (the doors)
I think with bigger dogs they are more than happy to let you do this.

I actually use zip ties for the crate instead of the screws that come with it because I have had to pull the crate apart a million times to fit it on shuttles etc. You will also need to pack cutters (in your luggage of course)

 
lg

Oh, and make sure the airplane actually can carry the size crate you are using. I have booked flights cleared the crate size with the booking agent and cargo department only to have a teammate call me and say that my airline will not take a 500 crate.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

I'd like to see some video of this dog before you leave Lee, can you do that ??


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Lisa makes all good points, I have shipped a crate agressive dog with no problem and have seen them declined. I know some PSD sales people that have no problem knocking the dog out for shipping even though the Airlines say NO.

Drill at least 6 holes around the door of the crate and Zip Tie the door as well, I believe this is done by Continental now anyway but it is better that you can do it at the Check in or cargo drop off.

If you have a crate breaker/chewer you might look into a Metal Airline approved crate.


Good Luck.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I'd like to see some video of this dog before you leave Lee, can you do that ??


Yes, Gerry, it's possible if you can help me figure out what to do to download it. You would have gotten a kick out of watching this maniac at the vets office yesterday. She put on quite a show even with the muzzle on.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Chris Michalek said:


> I heard people give the dogs benedryl to chill out dogs like that for such situations.


I'm going to chill out when the dogs are safely on the plane with some Bloody Marys. It's a AM flight.


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## Tina Rempel (Feb 13, 2008)

Do check on a metal crate with extra latches. Some friends of mine use one for their female and I have one male and one female that if I ever have to fly will be in metal crates. (I use them at home for two of my females here, they have learned to pop the dorrs out of plastic crates)

Sounds like you need a "crate" like I saw a Jaguar arrive in on a flight. Hmm, no wonder the female I was picking up was so happy to see a person after flying with that!


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

I have had several dogs that were refused to ship with different airlines. it is best to sedate them with Ace before you take them into the airport. Remember to bring some Ace with you for the trip home.
We ship a couple dogs per week and many times they need to be sedated before the flight.
good luck.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

mike suttle said:


> I have had several dogs that were refused to ship with different airlines. it is best to sedate them with Ace before you take them into the airport. Remember to bring some Ace with you for the trip home.
> We ship a couple dogs per week and many times they need to be sedated before the flight.
> good luck.


 
Mike, what dose do you used for a average 75lb Malinois?

Thanks


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

mike suttle said:


> I have had several dogs that were refused to ship with different airlines. it is best to sedate them with Ace before you take them into the airport. Remember to bring some Ace with you for the trip home.
> We ship a couple dogs per week and many times they need to be sedated before the flight.
> good luck.



Mike, does that turn them into pussy cats? Serious question.

Bringing some for the return trip is a great idea, but hopefully I'm not coming back unless it's in a casket.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

That's good information Mike but what is ACE and where do people get it?


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Kyle Sprag said:


> Mike, what dose do you used for a average 75lb Malinois?
> 
> Thanks


FOR THE RECORED......I AM NOT A VETERINARIAN,
having made that point very clear, with my own dogs I give a 75 lb malinois with a bad attitude in his crate 50mg of Acepromazine about 1 hour before I have to drop him off at the airport.
Ace is actually pretty safe and I have seen it used by veterinarians at much higher doses (1mg per lb of body weight) but that is more than is needed in most cases at the airport. You dont want him sleeping, only a little drowsy and calmer than normal.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Chris Michalek said:


> That's good information Mike but what is ACE and where do people get it?


Acepromozine, get it from the Vet, cant use with Collies.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Kyle Sprag said:


> Acepromozine, get it from the Vet, cant use with Collies.


I know! I thought that about 10 minutes after I posted but couldn't edit. We used to use that in the lab.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> , but hopefully I'm not coming back unless it's in a casket.


Lets hope it's not with a bunch of pygmy darts stuck in your forehead :razz:


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Lets hope it's not with a bunch of pygmy darts stuck in your forehead :razz:


Wrong continent I think!


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Mike, does that turn them into pussy cats? Serious question.
> 
> Bringing some for the return trip is a great idea, but hopefully I'm not coming back unless it's in a casket.


It does not change there temperament, it is just a sedative. It will make them very drowsy and less likey to be so reactive in the crate with strangers.


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## Tina Rempel (Feb 13, 2008)

I have a couple that get ace to take the edge off before going to the vets office. It's also part of my dogs first aid kit at home and in the camper.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I don't know Lee, I'd try it out for a test run. Dose her with ACE and get to people to come carry her off in a crate with you outta sight. You can get some guidelines from the vet but I'd experiment and kind of have a feel for what amount works best. I tried ACE once for a dog and he appeared to be knocked out. Amazing how alive they become in spite of it once the adrenaline starts flowing. The trouble is how long does it last. I guess one she's on the plane, they have to unload her, regardless. I guess you're going to have to opt for the super duper metal crates, though. My bouv has mangled her share of crates and that's because of the cat. If your bitch is really serious, you'll need the most secure they have out there. 

Terrasita


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I don't know Lee, I'd try it out for a test run. Dose her with ACE and get to people to come carry her off in a crate with you outta sight. You can get some guidelines from the vet but I'd experiment and kind of have a feel for what amount works best. I tried ACE once for a dog and he appeared to be knocked out. Amazing how alive they become in spite of it once the adrenaline starts flowing. The trouble is how long does it last. I guess one she's on the plane, they have to unload her, regardless. I guess you're going to have to opt for the super duper metal crates, though. My bouv has mangled her share of crates and that's because of the cat. If your bitch is really serious, you'll need the most secure they have out there.
> 
> Terrasita


The test run is a great idea. I've had people go up to the crate before and ALMOST touch it. She went nuts.
As soon as they backed off a couple of feet not much of a problem.

I will contact the vet and find out exactly what he was thinking of using. He did say it lasted about 12 hours. It will be a 2 "hop" trip and a plane change. Seattle to Houston. Houston to Liberia, Costa Rica. She will be handled a few times. The real interesting part is going to be when they off load her in CR. 

The drug would have worn off by then and there is a real fear there of dogs like her.

It's strange. I didn't even think about this until 3 AM in the morning yesterday. :-\"

My deceased Rott did this trip a couple of times cool as a cucumber. He didn't even pee in the crate during a 15 hour ordeal. 

I still have to think about my male. He's not as bad as the female but he's real aggressive and stronger too.

I will also speak anonymously to the airline again. I want to question them about how they would react to a almost totally "knocked out" dog with a letter from the vet.

Liberia, CR is pretty laid back. I have in laws in customs there. I will unload her myself if necessary.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

I just spoke with Continental Airlines. The rep said if they detect the dog has been tranquilized they are supposed to refuse to board the dog on the plane.

He stated the plane cargo area is pressurized but is still the equivalent of flying at a altitude of 9,000 feet. Tranquilizing is a metabolism issue plus concerns someone is trying to fly a sick dog.

What a pain!!


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

Ah Lee, driving there would be loads more fun anyway. Remember, life's a journey, not a destination. lol.
Really though, I hope things work out, you've had some good suggestions here, but it is kind of a stumper.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> I just spoke with Continental Airlines. The rep said if they detect the dog has been tranquilized they are supposed to refuse to board the dog on the plane.
> 
> He stated the plane cargo area is pressurized but is still the equivalent of flying at a altitude of 9,000 feet. Tranquilizing is a metabolism issue plus concerns someone is trying to fly a sick dog.
> 
> What a pain!!


Welcome to my World!!!!! I deal with this shit on a weekly basis, you are right, A HUGE PAIN.
My experience has been that Delta Airlines is much easier (less anal) than Continental.
Good luck, I hope it works out well for you.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

mike suttle said:


> Welcome to my World!!!!! I deal with this shit on a weekly basis, you are right, A HUGE PAIN.
> My experience has been that Delta Airlines is much easier (less anal) than Continental.
> Good luck, I hope it works out well for you.


I already tried Delta. All the Delta flights involve a overnight in Atlanta. That would be a big time mess.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> I already tried Delta. All the Delta flights involve a overnight in Atlanta. That would be a big time mess.


I dont know if they fly into your airport, but Alaska Airlines is a small airline that is great with shipping dogs.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

mike suttle said:


> I dont know if they fly into your airport, but Alaska Airlines is a small airline that is great with shipping dogs.


They do come in here as Horizon Air. But they don't go into Costa Rica. The other problem is Horizon's planes are small. They flew my Rott once and had the crate at a horrible uncomfortable angle. 

I could take them as far as Houston but then I have to contend with potential heat embargoes. Continental does not have heat embargoes.

Thanks for the suggestion though.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> I could take them as far as Houston but then I have to contend with potential heat embargoes. Continental does not have heat embargoes.
> 
> Thanks for the suggestion though.


Book red eye flights if you can, temps are cooler after midnight and before dawn. When I fly with my dog, I always like to go red eye because of cooler temps. Also it's easier because the airports are less crowded.


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## Chad Byerly (Jun 24, 2008)

Check with your Vet with all this of course, but just a couple things about Ace (acepromazine). 
It's used to stop the dog moving, but doesn't make him dopey or sedated, still conscious just less/not able to move. Also, someone else mentioned how dogs can come out of Ace's effects (not sure if that's with the adrenaline or what). 
Some veterinary practices use Ace to make wiggly/difficult (normal) dogs easier in the appointment, but the dogs often develope serious issues with going to the Vet in the future because they look sedated but are stressing out! I hope it works out for you, just wanted to suggest maybe looking or asking more about Ace before using it... Good luck.

I flew my Rottie a couple times on Alprazalam(sp?), which took the edge off (made him a little dopey). I tested the dose on him a week before the flight (as directed by my Vet). But he flew with me in the cabin, and I don't know about differences under the plane. And good point Susan, about avoiding the temps over the hot tarmac.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Ted Efthymiadis said:


> Isn't that the point of a crate?
> 
> Zip tie the door closed, just incase. Maybe put a little note on the dog of the crate.



I'd go further than zip-tie I'd put a small padlock on the crate. That's all you need is some dumbass letting the dog out because it looks sad or something. :twisted: 

The tranq is good idea for sure. IMO you don't have to tell them nothing about giving it to the dog. As Mike was saying give the dog a lighter dose or whatever the vet reccommends to take the edge of the dog as that is all you want is the dog to chill out. The Airline won't see a doped out dog either just a mellow one if you get the dose right. 

I don't know what type of crate you are thinking of using but the best most secure crate I've ever seen is the Ray Allen RAM Kennel. http://www.rayallen.com/product/1049/Kennels As you can see there is no way the dog can chew on any bars or some dimwit can easily stick fingers through any openings. Lockable with a padlock as well. A crate like this will last you a lifetime of dogs.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Geoff Empey said:


> I'd go further than zip-tie I'd put a small padlock on the crate. That's all you need is some dumbass letting the dog out because it looks sad or something. :twisted:


In my very limited experience with shipping dogs, the airlines insisted that I use zip ties to secure the door (so they could cut them in case of emergency) and prohibited locks of any kind.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

I'm doing a "dry run" this weekend, first without drugs, then with drugs. If it works without drugs I won't need to dose her for the trip.

I will take the dog to a strange location and drop off the crate. 

Then some "strangers" will come to pick up the crate and put it in their truck.

It kind of breaks my heart to do this. Under any other circumstances I would prefer she go into her usual Godzilla routine.


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## Julia Norton VMD (Sep 11, 2008)

If you try ace use it in advance to see what dose is right for her. I have given high doses to pit bulls with barely an effect. Other dogs (on a low dose)can be seriously out with poor blood pressure making it less safe to use in travel. Typical dose is a 25 mg tablet for a 50 lb dog. Be careful handling an aggressive dog on ace prom, they can be less aware of their surroundings and less inhibited and seriously bite even their owner.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Julia Norton VMD said:


> If you try ace use it in advance to see what dose is right for her. I have given high doses to pit bulls with barely an effect. Other dogs (on a low dose)can be seriously out with poor blood pressure making it less safe to use in travel. Typical dose is a 25 mg tablet for a 50 lb dog. Be careful handling an aggressive dog on ace prom, they can be less aware of their surroundings and less inhibited and seriously bite even their owner.


Julia, my vet recommended that same dose. I will see how she reacts if she needs anything on this dry run.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

First Experiment - I took the dog to a strange environment, a driveway on the other side of town. I left the dog alone there.

I gave the dog no tranquilizers. I had some hopes that without me present the dog might not react aggressively.

After 5 minutes I had a "stranger" to the dog approach the cage and pick up one end.

The dog went nuts.

Next experiment will be same scenario with 25 mg of Ace drugging a 52 pound dog.


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

Julia Norton VMD said:


> If you try ace use it in advance to see what dose is right for her. I have given high doses to pit bulls with barely an effect. Other dogs (on a low dose)can be seriously out with poor blood pressure making it less safe to use in travel. Typical dose is a 25 mg tablet for a 50 lb dog. Be careful handling an aggressive dog on ace prom, they can be less aware of their surroundings and less inhibited and seriously bite even their owner.


Julia is right. Just one of those little Ace pills will knock my 100# AB out for about 12 hours. On the other hand I have given 2 of the pills to the 85# GSD and it had zero effect on him what so ever.

Julie


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Julie Ann Alvarez said:


> Julia is right. Just one of those little Ace pills will knock my 100# AB out for about 12 hours. On the other hand I have given 2 of the pills to the 85# GSD and it had zero effect on him what so ever.
> 
> Julie


That's scary. If there is no effect I'm in big trouble.


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## Tina Rempel (Feb 13, 2008)

My vets Samoyed only gets half a table and is knocked out for a day. My 65 pound GSD female gets three tablets before going to the vets. You will want to try different doses to get the right one.


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## Tammy McDowell (Dec 4, 2006)

I've used to give one of my labs Ace before vet visits and it never seemed to affect him until we got home from the visit-he still wanted to eat the vet and put up a huge fight despite the Ace.

Continental is VERY stringent on flying dogs and if your drop off location is anything like the one in Houston-have all your ducks in a row and still be prepared to not be able to ship the dog for some reason or another. You have to sign a document w/ Continental stating that to you knowledge, the dog has not had any sort of tranquilizer. I would do many test drives with her and see what the minimal amount you can give her to take the edge off but be certain that she is still looks alert enough to the airline personnel. Continental is also very particular about the crate being big enough...they want 2 full inches above the dogs ears which for full grown GSD's and Mals means they have to ship in the biggest @ss crate you have ever seen that in reality is WAY too big and unneccessary.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Tammy McDowell said:


> I've used to give one of my labs Ace before vet visits and it never seemed to affect him until we got home from the visit-he still wanted to eat the vet and put up a huge fight despite the Ace.
> 
> Continental is VERY stringent on flying dogs and if your drop off location is anything like the one in Houston-have all your ducks in a row and still be prepared to not be able to ship the dog for some reason or another. You have to sign a document w/ Continental stating that to you knowledge, the dog has not had any sort of tranquilizer. I would do many test drives with her and see what the minimal amount you can give her to take the edge off but be certain that she is still looks alert enough to the airline personnel. Continental is also very particular about the crate being big enough...they want 2 full inches above the dogs ears which for full grown GSD's and Mals means they have to ship in the biggest @ss crate you have ever seen that in reality is WAY too big and unneccessary.


If they want 2 inches above upright ears that's another problem. It's the same crate they sleep in every night but I don't think there is 2 inches above upright ears. They can move around in the crate fine.

They are flying out of Seattle and then Houston

I'm curious if anyone else had this ear issue with Continental?


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

lee, just a thought, but if this aircraft deal is such a PITA, have you considered just flying them to TX, then hiring a boat to CR? i mean, if you're retired, no big hurry, you might get some good fishing in on the way, etc., etc. 

RELAX!!!


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

I was going to drive them down. Then I changed my plans and decided flying them was easier than putting them through a 2 week minimum ordeal. We'll see about that.

I'm still flying back here without the dogs and driving stuff down latter in the summer. That way I can relax on the trip back down and just duck bullets fired between the Mexican military and the drug lords.


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## Tina Rempel (Feb 13, 2008)

Wave when you're at Seatac airport. I live about 15 miles south and work about 5 miles north. If your plane takes off headed south you will fly over my house. LOL


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## Tammy McDowell (Dec 4, 2006)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> If they want 2 inches above upright ears that's another problem. It's the same crate they sleep in every night but I don't think there is 2 inches above upright ears. They can move around in the crate fine.
> 
> They are flying out of Seattle and then Houston
> 
> I'm curious if anyone else had this ear issue with Continental?


 
We joke that the Houston Continental Cargo peeps are the shipping Nazi's...I swear it honestly seems like they look specifically for reasons that your dog can not be shipped. I've heard of others in different areas not having the same issue as we do w/ the Houston office...they are very strict. When I have to ship a dog w/ them I'm seriously in a bad mood before even arriving at the airport because I know that although I've done everything right on 'my' end, they will find something to complain about.

Funny thing, they've given us hell over the crate not being 2 inches above the dogs ears so we've had to buy a crate from them several times in order to ship to their standards yet I've seen them ship 4 LARGE Parrots together in 1 tiny crate...the birds where literally crammed in, could barely stand up straight and no one seemed bothered about it.

Are your dogs supposed to catch a flight out of Houston as well?

editing to add that they also have people at the counter and in this dept that have ZERO knowledge about dogs. It has happened to us as well as a friend trying to ship that one of the people working in the office stands in front of the crate literally glaring at the dog and then when it growls/barks, it is deemed too aggressive to fly...or in one instance with us one idiot woman poked her finger in to say 'hi' to one of our Mals who damn near took her finger off...super social dog just don't mess w/ him in the crate. Hope you have better luck than we have had w/ Continental.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Hi Tammy - They go from Seattle to Houston to Liberia, Costa Rica. I hope if I get them on the plane in Seattle I'm home clear.

Have you had any experience with connections to Houston.

It's interesting when I called Seattle cargo direct they acted like a growling dog was no big deal. The rep at the 800 number said they would not take a growling dog.

BTW it's 3 inches for a international flight.

If they kick the dog off in Houston it will be a real mess.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

It's been my experience shipping dogs that the problems come more from individual cargo offices then any one specific airline. Ie the Continental people in Houston may be a royal PITA but the ones in San Diego may be super laid back while it's the Delta people there that are a PITA, etc. I currently ship dogs out of Ontario CA and it's the same people for all the airlines (just one little cargo office) so other then different types of forms, the rules as far as crate size are pretty much the same, if they think the crate is fine for one airline they won't complain about it for another airline. And they are realistic, if the dog can stand up and turn around (ie the top of the crate is 1/2 inch or so above the shoulders) then the crate is big enough. Which is one reason I use that airport, that plus it's the most easily accessible from my house.

Once they have accepted the dog as cargo and started the flight I don't believe they can refuse to continue the flight for something like growling/barking. I have never had them do it and I've shipped some fairly crate aggressive dogs, 2 that arrived at their destination with the crate showing obvious signs of damage and basically having been taped/zip tied/etc to try to keep it together until they arrived. So if you get them on the plane in Seattle you should be fine. If you are flying with the dog that may be a different story since you would be available during the connection to go get the dog and find an alternate method of travel. 

You may see about using other airports in your area also, I have found the smaller ones like Ontario CA are more laid back then the big ones.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Yeah Kadi, I'm flying with the dog. Spokane is a small close to home airport but the only flights with alternate airlines like Delta or American was 24 hours to get to C.R.

So I decided to drive the dogs over to Seattle for 15 hours door to door with Continental.

That may turn out to be a error although Continental cargo in Seattle kind of didn't make a big deal out of crate aggressive.

Saturday I try this whole exercise again with 25mg of Ace.

Hopefully she won't look glassy eyed and stay calmer. I guess I will see.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Second experiment - I tranquilized her this morning with 25mg Ace. She is 52 pounds. No difference in strange person cage aggression or alertness. Next week 50mg.


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

ROAD TRIP!!! Road road tripping...lol. The boat will carry the car, right?


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Yesterday I tried 50mg's of Ace. There was no difference in the dog in or out of the crate. It had zero effect. The vet said that is the max recommended for her weight.

He said to try Alprazolam.

One of the differences between the two is Ace tranquilizer effect lasts longer.

He said Alprazolam would probably wear off before the Houston plane change.

I will try the new one tomorrow.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Yesterday I tried 50mg's of Ace. There was no difference in the dog in or out of the crate. It had zero effect.
> 
> I will try the new one tomorrow.


Lee, I think your're supposed to give it to the dog


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Lee, I think your're supposed to give it to the dog


Frankly Gerry, I think I need it more! :smile:

Time is getting short and I still have a ton of non dog related stuff to do.

This dog thing just adds to the confusion.


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