# Food refusal and reality



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Just wanted some thoughts on this.
I've never done it for sport but we've always ate in the living room watching tv. My dogs wont touch anything on a plate, even if it's on the floor and nobody is in the room. I've never done anything but a simple "AHHH" when they get near a plate of food and that has always worked. 
If a dog is taught food refusal for ring, how much will carry over to every day life. 
My own thoughts are that it's situational.
If you don't train for NO food, EVER unless it comes from you, is is reasonable to expect a dog to refuse food it finds on a walk, on the floor, in the yard, etc?


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I was just discussing this with a PP guy in my area a few days ago. He trains food refusal, and does it pretty well. But, his dogs truly won't eat anything unless it comes from his hand. He has his wife and kids do the same, so if god forbid anything happens to him.

He told me, the way it's trained, he begins at 6 to 8 weeks as a pup. I don't know how effective you can train this without feeding them this way from the very beginning. One of the few exceptions that are best not delayed, whereas much of what we train dogs for can usually wait past puppyhood.

He also imprints for object guarding with food at this early age, which makes progression of actually training for it much smoother as a young adult.


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

A dog is a scavenger and imho they will eat what they find given the chance.Sure you can teach them not to take food inside a training program but let them loose and see what happens?Food refusal or poison proofing is an obedience exercise and i believe if a dog finds something to eat when he is strolling around he will eat it!!
If you take this further do you really believe a dog would die of hunger if the owner does not feed it?Also water comes to mind.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

The ring stuff is fairly situational. Buko will take food from other people, I am not about to try and train the dog for some nutty amount of time for this retarded shit.

It does not transfer on the whole. I had 1 dog that would not eat from anyone but me, but she was trained as a baby, and had **** all for food drive.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I think food refusal is interesting, but I don't know that I'd consider it important for me. There should be no context where someone has opportunity to feed my dogs anyway, without probably getting bit first.


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## Guest (Nov 20, 2009)

Bob, you are correct in assuming a trained food refusal would be situational. Dogs do not generalize well, hence the calculated backsteps necessary to build a solid foundation in any trained behavior. If you wanted the food refusal to be more of a general behavior then you'd have to train the dog in many different settings and situations with many different food items. The proofing process alone would be very time consuming. Even then, one mess up off leash and you are set back. I'd rather train an incompatible behavior like a bombproof leave it command and, separately, a WMD proof recall. Dog can't munch on deer offal if he has the muscle memory to return to you upon recall. That too would have to be trained and proofed from house to himalayas of course.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> .... is is reasonable to expect a dog to refuse food it finds on a walk, on the floor, in the yard, etc?


Only if I am right there watching. :lol:

My first suspicion was once when I was a medium distance away and saw the dog give a quick look around before he ignored some disgusting bit on the ground.

So I have to think that as a poison-proofing measure, at least in the case of my dogs, it was probably a washout that I thought I taught "my hand or their bowl, only." Well, unless someone tries to poison them with me standing right there watching. _Then_ they'll be foiled.





Vin Chiu said:


> ... That too would have to be trained and proofed from house to himalayas of course.


:lol: :lol:


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Daryl Ehret said:


> I think food refusal is interesting, but I don't know that I'd consider it important for me. There should be no context where someone has opportunity to feed my dogs anyway, without probably getting bit first.


Our mail carrier was throwing treats over our fence several months ago. The dogs went off on her every time they saw her, but after she drove off, they ate the treats. She said she was trying to make friends with them. I told her they didn't need any more friends.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I forgot about that incident. I'd be mad for sure at your mailman, but my dogs aren't accessible except by risk to the intruder, in which case food would not be very effective to achieve anything worth the effort.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I think were all pretty much on the same page with this. "Situational"!
None of my dogs have ever eaten off of a plate on the living room floor but I had one border terrier that took the situation to heart. If the plate was on the floor I could leave the room for long periods and not have a problem 
If the plate was left on an end table it would be polished clean the next morninig. 
A scavenger WILL eat when oportunity knocks.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

I would consider a dog eating the food of a plate on the floor an obedience issue not true food refusal training. Food refusal is if when leave your night time dogs out to patrol the fenced grounds and someone throws a few steaks over the fence and there still there in the morning. Even if the hounds have not ate for a day or two.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Chris McDonald said:


> I would consider a dog eating the food of a plate on the floor an obedience issue not true food refusal training. Food refusal is if when leave your night time dogs out to patrol the fenced grounds and someone throws a few steaks over the fence and there still there in the morning. Even if the hounds have not ate for a day or two.


 Hey McDonald...if you throw a few steaks over my fence make sure they are done medium rare! And don't include any cheap a$$ beer either. I know how you Jersey boys roll! :---)


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

if you train at burger king you shouldn't have an issue with food or reality....


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

another example of why training food refusal at Burger King will work

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIGmYydCYO8&feature=player_embedded


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## Guest (Nov 21, 2009)

Chris McDonald said:


> I would consider a dog eating the food of a plate on the floor an obedience issue not true food refusal training. Food refusal is if when leave your night time dogs out to patrol the fenced grounds and someone throws a few steaks over the fence and there still there in the morning. Even if the hounds have not ate for a day or two.



Its all obedience. To achieve this level of food refusal with no handler present would require a tremendous amount, a *massive* amount of positive punishment/ compulsion. Good luck with that.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Chris Michalek said:


> if you train at burger king you shouldn't have an issue with food or reality....


Nice example of English as a FIRST official language! *Meat!!!*


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Vin Chiu said:


> Its all obedience. To achieve this level of food refusal with no handler present would require a tremendous amount, a *massive* amount of positive punishment/ compulsion. Good luck with that.


Your right it is all obedience, just saying it can be done for those who do need it.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Hey McDonald...if you throw a few steaks over my fence make sure they are done medium rare! And don't include any cheap a$$ beer either. I know how you Jersey boys roll! :---)


You got something against cheap ass beer?


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## Scott L. Donn (Sep 25, 2009)

This is clearly a case of good house manners. I lost a very good PPD dog to poisoning and consider it of upmost importance with my dogs now. Think about the hours, money and bond you have with your dog and some scumbag slips it hamburger laced with rat poison or a bowl of antifreeze and you will reconsider spending some quality time on this subject. If you want your dog to protect, you need to give him the tools to protect himself!


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Scott L. Donn said:


> This is clearly a case of good house manners. I lost a very good PPD dog to poisoning and consider it of upmost importance with my dogs now. Think about the hours, money and bond you have with your dog and some scumbag slips it hamburger laced with rat poison or a bowl of antifreeze and you will reconsider spending some quality time on this subject. If you want your dog to protect, you need to give him the tools to protect himself!


 
You make a Valid point, I do know some trainers that Train their dogs, and clients, to NOT eat anything that is not given by the Handler and/or Family. One trainer Needs this kind of protection for reasons you mention.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> I think were all pretty much on the same page with this. "Situational"!


It is a very "Situational" thing for sure. Training it for Ring is one thing. I try to differentiate the 'field' vs the 'home' my dog will not take food if we are in that mode. We have 2 young boys and they are always dropping crumbs and gladly the dog will prowl around cleaning up after them. 

My wife as well when she is cooking will throw the dog food small pieces of ham or whatever and the dog snaps them out of the air. You wouldn't believe the discussions I had with my lovely wife over that. :evil: But even in doing so that did not effect my dog's food refusal on the field. You can pitch steak, yummy yummy fish heads at her all day long. She just knows the field is business time. Good enough for me. 

If I was training a PPD, kenneled PSD or Detection dog whose life could be in danger from people who could do harm to them you could just take the training further. Though even then I'd say at that type of levels it would be hard pressed to have it 100%


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## Curtis McHail (Nov 7, 2009)

The only time food refusal is important is if you have a guard dog who works alone. But let's face it a hungry dog WILL eat. Some one I know trains their dogs to only eat from a free feeder. Won't even take treats or chicken from the ground. It'll rot before he eats it. BUT the reason he uses the free feeder? The dog is never hungry!


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Curtis McHail said:


> The only time food refusal is important is if you have a guard dog who works alone. But let's face it a hungry dog WILL eat. Some one I know trains their dogs to only eat from a free feeder. Won't even take treats or chicken from the ground. It'll rot before he eats it. BUT the reason he uses the free feeder? The dog is never hungry!



Makes sense. As it is a real danger for those types of working dogs from criminals that would do grieveous harm to these dogs in a heartbeat without remorse to commit further crimes. As well as a kenneled/fenced unattended Narc or PSD dog. I'd suspect they would be a prime target for some of those same crackerheads.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

IF I ever threw my dogs ANY of my cooking, I can tell you they would never look at food from another human again! [-X Lesson done~ next issue.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> IF I ever threw my dogs ANY of my cooking, I can tell you they would never look at food from another human again! [-X Lesson done~ next issue.


 
Raw Howard raw


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## Guest (Nov 23, 2009)

Geoff Empey said:


> Makes sense. As it is a real danger for those types of working dogs from criminals that would do grieveous harm to these dogs in a heartbeat without remorse to commit further crimes. As well as a kenneled/fenced unattended Narc or PSD dog. I'd suspect they would be a prime target for some of those same crackerheads.


IF someone wants to do you harm, they will find a way around or through any dog. The dog eating poison is the last thing on a long list of possibilities that will kill him. Dogs are good deterrents for smash and grab home invasions and fly by the seat of your pants stuff, but if you really are in danger, you need to be carrying. A dog is just a false sense of security against someone who is serious about harming you or your family and the best place for him in that scenario is inside your home, not out in your yard or off somewhere on the property.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Ya Vin what you say about the boogie man getting you if he wants is the truth, every once in a while someone on here comes up with this brain storm. What you said has been said before and I think it’s pretty much agreed upon. I don’t know if I would use the word “false” as often as I would use “added” sense of security. For us regular people a dog is like having your porch lights on and locking your doors it all helps the whole package, the better the whole package is the better the chances of success. I guess this goes for anything. 
Let’s face it if you on a mob hit list you can easily say carrying a gun is just a “false” sense of security. 
For the 99.9 percent of us who are not on the mobs hit list but just like playing with dogs things like this are just a challenge, for fun kind of thing. The OP was just worried about his bowl of ice cream getting eaten and we all know where he is coming from. But the refusal thing can be done and would be a neat thing if you’re dog did not eat the steak thrown over the fence.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Howard, I know a few people with dogs that could use your cooking. LOL Could be a source of extra income.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Chris McDonald said:


> Ya Vin what you say about the boogie man getting you if he wants is the truth, every once in a while someone on here comes up with this brain storm. For the 99.9 percent of us who are not on the mobs hit list but just like playing with dogs things like this are just a challenge, for fun kind of thing. The OP was just worried about his bowl of ice cream getting eaten and we all know where he is coming from. But the refusal thing can be done and would be a neat thing if you’re dog did not eat the steak thrown over the fence.


And yes that steak laced with poison being thrown over the fence .. that CAN be reliably trained. 99.99999% of the time.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Geoff Empey said:


> And yes that steak laced with poison being thrown over the fence .. that CAN be reliably trained. 99.99999% of the time.


I think this might be sarcasm


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Chef G. the Iron Chef! Nice...\\/
"And a little ginger brandy for the chicken and lots for MMMMEEEEEEEEEE!"


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