# Breeding Ethics



## Ben Colbert

A recent thread had me curious. What goes through your minds when you are deciding to breed a dog. I cringe when I see people with substandard dogs talking about breeding mostly just because they can. I've heard some breeders only breed dogs that they think will improve the breed. Seems like a decent philosophy to me if the breeder can be honest with themselves.

So what makes you guys want to take that extra step and breed two specific dogs?


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## Don Turnipseed

I just got my East German bred pup and forgot to even ask who the dam was. Didn't really matter to me who he was bred too, it was him I wanted the bloodline to......and I am familiar enough With Stew, to know he isn't going to breed if the bitch isn't a darn good dog. By the way, he has had the freedom of the house for 5 or 6 nights now with no accidents and never been in a crate for training and he isn't 3 mo old yet. Just thought I would throw in that update. :grin:


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## Mike Scheiber

Ben Colbert said:


> A recent thread had me curious. What goes through your minds when you are deciding to breed a dog. I cringe when I see people with substandard dogs talking about breeding mostly just because they can. I've heard some breeders only breed dogs that they think will improve the breed. Seems like a decent philosophy to me if the breeder can be honest with themselves.
> So what makes you guys want to take that extra step and breed two specific dogs?


Ill answer from a consumer point starting with what I highlighted yes this is a good starting point but...... 
The US is a big place in Europe many of the good producing kennels don't keep a stud dog. Here in America due to geographies often the kennel may focus there bitches around 1 or2 good or if lucky excellent producing stud dogs.
I think consumers here have to start a year or two early here figuring out who has what and watch whats been coming down the pipe often times we get some of the great dogs siblings from Europe and if we keep tabs on whats happening there and here its easier to narrow down who to look to for a pup or young dog.
The majority of breeding's are done out of convenience here in the US even by the good kennels so its very important as a consumer to be mindful and educate your self, or find someone who is and can help with finding a good prospect.
Ill add that I'm looking from a Working German Shepherd point of view


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: I cringe when I see people with substandard dogs talking about breeding mostly just because they can.

Yet you bought a dog from substandard parents bred by these very people you are cringing over, who bred because they could.

Then they sold you, a substandard trainer, one of their "working" pups.

You see how that works ? It basically is who the **** are you to say ? I think you are a substandard trainer, who is doing a poor job of working his pup. I also think that you bought your pup from substandard dogs and breeders. 

WHat a mess when you think there is some sort of "ethics" behind getting a bulldog. THey are bred for money. Just money, as they are useless at the work, percentage wise, unless they are a mix breed, or "performance breed".

You see how badly this can go when people decide that they are some sort of breed warden.


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## will fernandez

truth hurts


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## Ben Colbert

What the **** is your problem Jeff?

First of no one sold me shit. I was GIVEN a dog to see if it would work out. The breeder who bred the dogs placed all of them in to homes and didn't take a cent. The ones he thought would "work" went to working homes (he kept two, one went to a PSA home, one went to a hog hunter and I took one). the other three were placed in pet homes with a neuter contract.

To me this is the definition of ethical breeding. The breeding didn't work out and it will not be repeated.

You have a habit of running your mouth without having the full story Jeff. I've seen the results of your training. I wouldn't be so smug.

And for the record I was inquiring about your personal ethics. Not trying to force them on others.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

You are active military, and go out and get a puppy, and then want to talk to me about ethics ? How about you go **** yourself ? 

Any time you think you got the balls to compete against me in dog training, Mondio is always there. I don't see you doing anything in anything at all, yet you think that entitles you to question your betters ?

How about you learn to shut the **** up ? That would be lesson number one. Then, how about you cruise on over and compare your dog to mine, any of mine. In any catagory and then maybe I will allow you to speak.


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## Ben Colbert

Oh so now us military members can't have dogs? It would be unethical for me as an active duty military member to have a dog? Never mind I'm married and my wife can take care of my dogs. Never mind I'm in a stateside unit. Never mind as a member of the Coast Guard I have almost zero chance of an overseas deployment.

You see? You are still running your mouth when you don't have the facts.

You're a joke. I come here to learn. I was curious as to what peoples ethics are as it related to breeding. that's it. Not to pass judgment as you apparently think. Just to learn. Congratulations on derailing another thread you miserable bastard.


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## Don Turnipseed

*Happy Thanksgiving Everyone!!!!*

Oh, that was yesterday I guess! LMAO


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: It would be unethical for me as an active duty military member to have a dog?

Yes. Even as a girlscout it is still not appropriate. Your commitment is to the US Military.

Quote: Congratulations on derailing another thread you miserable bastard.

Another retarded thread that should have never been started. You need to stay in the "I don't know anything about training and am really bad at it catagory" and stay away from stupid threads like this. 

Anytime you have leave, feel free to bring your dog and your training for a reality check. I mean after all, Buko is such a badly trained dog.


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## Ashley Campbell

Sort of agree with Jeff. Since you're CG it's not quite the same, but how "ethical" is it to get a puppy and then if you're deployed, expect your spouse to take care of it? Not only that, but if your spouse isn't the training type, you're letting your dog sit and rot for 12-15 months. That's hardly fair to a true working dog. 

Back on topic. Ethics vary from person to person. A breeder you may like, I might not touch with a stick. It's such an individual thing. 

Define "improve the breed".
Showline GSD breeders say they are improving the breed by only breeding Champion show stock. I disagree. I think they are ruining the breed. They think that working line breeders are ruining their breed because a lot of the dogs just aren't drop dead gorgeous. 

See the difference? The basic dog owner thinks if someone is breeding CH dog A to CH dog B and they have all their health checks, etc, that they are a reputable breeder. 
I say if that CH dog spooks at it's own shadow, it should have been eliminated from any breeding program and I'd buy a pup out of 2 untitled parents that are stable as opposed to "bettering the breed" by show standards.


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## Bob Scott

Ashley said;
"See the difference? The basic dog owner thinks if someone is breeding CH dog A to CH dog B and they have all their health checks, etc, that they are a reputable breeder."

My first KBT was all CH for 7 generations in his pedigree. He was totally incorrect from a show dog point of view but nationally ranked as the #1 OB Comp KBT. 
See! There is a good use for that ugly gene without the CH. ;-)
This was the breeders first litter. After seeing Rocky and his littermates I think her dreams were dashed and she never bred another litter. :lol::lol:


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## Ben Colbert

All right guys. I think everyone has missed the point of the thread. I'm not looking for this to be about bashing other for their own personal breeding ethics. I'm just curious what goes through your mind when you decide to breed two dogs. That's it.


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## Thomas Barriano

Ben Colbert said:


> A recent thread had me curious. What goes through your minds when you are deciding to breed a dog. I cringe when I see people with substandard dogs talking about breeding mostly just because they can. I've heard some breeders only breed dogs that they think will improve the breed. Seems like a decent philosophy to me if the breeder can be honest with themselves.
> 
> So what makes you guys want to take that extra step and breed two specific dogs?



Ben,

I bred my SchH III Dobermann Dubheasa, mainly to get a puppy and to improve the working temperament of the Breed.
The Ascomannis J litter accomplished both goals. When it was discovered that two of Dubheasa male litter mates had cardio I had Dubheasa spayed (even though she tested as cardio negative) rather then take the slightest chance of spreading cardio. Breeder ethics are self imposed for the most part.
Some "breeders" do litter after litter and their guarantee is
worthless. Other breeders stand behind guarantees and replace puppies and don't require the puppy be returned to be PTS.


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## Mike Lauer

I have only met 1 dog I would breed. 
I just play for fun. I will only need 1 or 2 more dogs in my entire lifetime so I would only like to see dogs bread that greatly improve the working abilities of the breed. but this is still america, hell the show breeders are doing more damage than any backyard breeder ever could.


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## Kerry Foose

Mike Lauer said:


> I have only met 1 dog I would breed.
> I just play for fun. I will only need 1 or 2 more dogs in my entire lifetime so I would only like to see dogs bread that greatly improve the working abilities of the breed. but this is still america, hell the show breeders are doing more damage than any backyard breeder ever could.



I couldn't agree more....

But all this talk of over breeders creating overcrowding of shelters/rescues and producing more biscuit eaters and such...let's call it what it really is truly all about - money. 
Face it, all the reputable and highly respected breeders are retaining the best of the best of their stock....they sell off the next best to the highest bidder that is going to showcase and use that dog (inadvertently showcasing that breeding to the community)..the rest are culls, or should be...whether they are eliminated from the genetic pool by death, sterilization or contract. 
I dare say that many on this board own culls. 8-[
Just my opinion of course, but there is nothing wrong with placing these culls in sporty pet homes as long as they are properly represented that way.


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## Don Turnipseed

Kerry, I think the question was put to breeders. I think you said you didn't breed.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I figure a one in a million dog isn't gonna show up by breeding 4 pups a year.


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## Tammy St. Louis

Bob 
>>>>>>My first KBT was all CH for 7 generations in his pedigree. He was totally incorrect from a show dog point of view but nationally ranked as the #1 OB Comp KBT.

Maybe cuz it was a Mini Schauzer,, ( sorry HAD TO <) LOL


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## Kerry Foose

Don Turnipseed said:


> Kerry, I think the question was put to breeders. I think you said you didn't breed.


UH...I think there is a thread on the herding area displaying my last litter...but whatever, I guess this is a good old boys club and no one else is allowed a opinion Don?


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## Don Turnipseed

I just looked at your past posts Kerry. It appears you didn't make the statement that you are not a breeder. My apologies. I have no business in the herding section so I have never even opened that forum. 

I don't agree with your assement that the breeder always keeps the best for himself. I have always kept amale and female out of the first cross. If I deem the cross to be excellent. I keep those two dogs together for life pretty much. I never keep any more pups out of the cross....I try to get them out were they will actually improve the breed. If I have to, many times I will, hold the best out and give them to someone to get them into a new venue. There have been a lot of top quality dogs sold as I can't keep them all. I mention BlackJack on occassion. He was next to the last pick of the litter. I kept him because I wanted a buddy that was more laid back. A house dog, ride around in the truck dog. Had I sold him, I would have sold him as such. The top dog of his litter went to, Dan, the Koehler trainer in in Md.


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## Bob Scott

Tammy St. Louis said:


> Bob
> >>>>>>My first KBT was all CH for 7 generations in his pedigree. He was totally incorrect from a show dog point of view but nationally ranked as the #1 OB Comp KBT.
> 
> Maybe cuz it was a Mini Schauzer,, ( sorry HAD TO <) LOL



 8-[ 8-[ Cold hearted wimmins!.......:-k:-k:-k................:-o DAMN!......:-k Ya think?.....NAAAW! :lol: :lol: 
I earned that one! :grin: :wink:


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

I think breeders need to learn from more successful people and i think many breeders are too quick to produce their own stud dogs. Females should be the focus of new breeders, you can always take your bitch to a breeder with a good stud or even buy frozen sperm. Its easier to get good results with proven dogs.
I respect the czech people a lot, they seem to know how to combine pedigrees well.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

don't agree with you that stud dog owners are always (knowledgable) breeders ;-) I know enough people wich own a breedworthy male, use him as stud, but are no breeders.


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## Jerry Cudahy

Ask a Peta Member, ](*,)

Actually pls don't ask peta, I am joking.

They get really pissed when pups are headlined on the gong show.

Ben, a better question that goes with Ethics. Surrounds Owners who pretend to know what they are doing with the stock.


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## Gillian Schuler

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> don't agree with you that stud dog owners are always (knowledgable) breeders ;-) I know enough people wich own a breedworthy male, use him as stud, but are no breeders.


Agree with you Selena, why should stud dog owners have more knowledge at their finger tips? Doesn't make sense.


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## Chloe Corrigan

I do not know exactly what science goes into breeding, but I think that anyone who breeds that does not have a true understanding for breed standard should not be breeding. I mean breed standard as in.. general stability, working ability, health.. things that benefit the human and dog alike. If you think about the origins of dogs and why we bred them, it is heart breaking to see so many dogs be bred just because someone wants to see a pretty coat, or to make money - such as to reimburse what money they had lost in the stud dog. It seems in America, the standards for breeding are much more lenient than in Europe..for any dog. I got my shepherd from Germany, from the von den wolfen line, and I absolutely love her and her crazy drive. She was not as expensive as any poorly bred showline in America with an AKC pedigree..and that fact right there speaks for itself. 

Some man who was big on showlines - I can't find the article for the life of me - had a wienerau line dog or was involved with that line, and said something along the lines of.. would you rather have a good trainer and a poor dog, or a bad trainer and a great dog? (Making the excuse that a good trainer can train any dog). And as I read that I thought.. well shit, I'd rather have a good trainer and an amazing dog (wasn't that the point of breeding in the first place?). It seems some things you just can't train a dog if there was no foundation in the breeding other than hips, elbows, and looks (and money). 
For the record, though, I've been told that there are showlines that have high drive. That they are just very rare and hard to find. A couple at my club actually had a great dog, who was bred from show lines, that had some awesome drive. We all headed up to NASS only to find that he was missing two teeth (they didn't fall out)..whoops. Talk about great breeding! I think it was by luck that he had good drive. And maybe bad luck that he was missing some teeth.
However, look at old german shepherds..they look nothing like the ones today! And even then, there's seperate versions of what's "showline" in different locations around the world. So..why focus on looks anyway?

I could go on forever. Bottom line..for Breeding Ethics: Looks shouldn't be the only focus, ever.


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## Mike Lauer

Don't think the Mali's are safe either, I saw a "showline" mal the other day. He was weak nerved much taller and thinner less stocky than other mals i have seen.
Wont be long and they will be ruining that breed also


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## Sue DiCero

Not bad luck on the teeth. Missing teeth is genetic. Came from dam and/or sire.

I have heard the excuse of "the teeth fell out". Then you should have evidence of teeth being in the mouth prior.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

I did not imply that stud dog owners were more knowledgeable than other people what i mean is if someone has a proven stud say stuka vom enkhausen, asko von der lutter and you have a young male from one of your litters its safer to breed a proven dog that matches your bitch than breeding that 'rookie' male yo have.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: its safer to breed a proven dog that matches your bitch than breeding that 'rookie' male yo have.

But does nothing to help you develop your own line of dogs. Nothing like promoting short sightedness. So, in your opinion, as a fine breeder of dogs, you should keep that "rookie" male for 4 or 5 years while you title him and then find out he cannot produce **** all.

Good thinking. HA HA


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

I didn't mean that. Its hard for a young breeder to really choose a potential breeding dog, i am not even an inexperienced breeder, what i'm just saying is for those who are new and have gotten fairly good bitches they can use proven outside studs until they have experience and feel that they can select their own studs, bitches are easier.
I think you can develop your own line with your bitches, keep the best females to be bred to outside studs for variety until you feel you have a stud worthy dog from your kennel. I respect your opinions and am not saying these things as fact but as my personal opinion.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I need to keep you on your toes. The best way to figure this stuff out is to do it.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Yh your'e right. When i look at the tiekerhook pedigrees many times he uses outside studs and the uses a female from the litter for his next breeding occassionally and he's doing well. Also most breeder emphasize the importance of the bitch so there's no hurry to produce ur own stud JMO.


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## Don Turnipseed

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> Yh your'e right. When i look at the tiekerhook pedigrees many times he uses outside studs and the uses a female from the litter for his next breeding occassionally and he's doing well. Also most breeder emphasize the importance of the bitch so there's no hurry to produce ur own stud JMO.


Of course breeders emphasise the importance of the bitch. The owner of the bitch owns the litter. Both sides donate 50% genetically. The thinking is the bitch has a stronger influence on the pups. She does because she raises the the pups and the male was an outside stud so he is out of the picture. Many breeders, that claim they don't breed for the money but for love of the breed, will not keep their own studs on hand because they take up the space another producing female could have. Pure and simple. Dairies make their money selling milk, be kind of dumb to take up all their space keeping bulls.


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## Daryl Ehret

While I understand the reasoning for that, here in the U.S. is not a wide (or near) availability of suitable studs. And also some kennels, such as van den Heuvel for instance, will not stud their dogs out to any females of another kennel. I think having one or two studs of your own can be indespensible if not necessary.


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## Gillian Schuler

Chloe Corrigan said:


> I do not know exactly what science goes into breeding, but I think that anyone who breeds that does not have a true understanding for breed standard should not be breeding. I mean breed standard as in.. general stability, working ability, health.. things that benefit the human and dog alike. If you think about the origins of dogs and why we bred them, it is heart breaking to see so many dogs be bred just because someone wants to see a pretty coat, or to make money - such as to reimburse what money they had lost in the stud dog. It seems in America, the standards for breeding are much more lenient than in Europe..for any dog. I got my shepherd from Germany, from the von den wolfen line, and I absolutely love her and her crazy drive. She was not as expensive as any poorly bred showline in America with an AKC pedigree..and that fact right there speaks for itself.
> 
> Some man who was big on showlines - I can't find the article for the life of me - had a wienerau line dog or was involved with that line, and said something along the lines of.. would you rather have a good trainer and a poor dog, or a bad trainer and a great dog? (Making the excuse that a good trainer can train any dog). And as I read that I thought.. well shit, I'd rather have a good trainer and an amazing dog (wasn't that the point of breeding in the first place?). It seems some things you just can't train a dog if there was no foundation in the breeding other than hips, elbows, and looks (and money).
> For the record, though, I've been told that there are showlines that have high drive. That they are just very rare and hard to find. A couple at my club actually had a great dog, who was bred from show lines, that had some awesome drive. We all headed up to NASS only to find that he was missing two teeth (they didn't fall out)..whoops. Talk about great breeding! I think it was by luck that he had good drive. And maybe bad luck that he was missing some teeth.
> However, look at old german shepherds..they look nothing like the ones today! And even then, there's seperate versions of what's "showline" in different locations around the world. So..why focus on looks anyway?
> 
> I could go on forever. Bottom line..for Breeding Ethics: Looks shouldn't be the only focus, ever.


Chloe,

If all breeders of all dogs would keep to the standard, we would have far less problems, I agree. Here in German speaking countries, we have a strict control of what we are allowed to breed to.

Unfortunately, the fact that in the standard, it states for the GSD that strong nerves are to be a priority, half of the breeders wouldn't recognize weak nerves in dogs as their own nerves hamper them!

Wienerau is, as far as I know, completely, show lines and here, the "mentality or temperament" of the dogs is never considered. It is, I know, very hard to breed for as the heritability is low and compared with the physical attrirbutes, not easy to access. You can get rid of physical deficiencies much quicker than "temperament / mental deficiencies, i.e. "what the eye sees".

It's a pity that Alfred Hahn, one of the greatest GSD breeders, does not have translations of his reports, methodology on breeding, in English. But then, even if he did, who would take the time to read it?????

Anton, my BH, was interested in breeding GSDs but I waived it aside, as I had not enough knowledge to produce litters which could improve the breed and find, there are enough out there who do.

For instance Koos, in Holland.

We got our dogs from a good breeder, maybe not the best, but one who checked out the dogs' potential in working power before he bred.

Von den Wölfen is Thomas Lapp's Kennels, if I am correct. He breeds good sports dog (from what I have heard).


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## Jeff Oehlsen

With all the breeding "experts" out there telling others who or what to breed to, it is a wonder that anyone breeds at all.

Van den heuvel can kiss my ass. I asked them to use one of their dogs and they told me that they do not stud their dogs out to outside bitches. Like they are producing some sort of super dog. Good thing I am not bitter. : )


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## Gillian Schuler

Jeff, I don't know exactly where you are coming from but if I had a good, proven dog, I would be looking to mate it to a good, proven bitch, going from the proven fact that the dog / sire produce 50/ 50 or 55 / 45 of the genetics.

If I have a very good dog, "if", I would want to mate it to a bitch that would match it, otherwise I would have "maybe" lesser pups.

I'm not a breeder so please read this as such!!


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## Jeff Oehlsen

They are just hogging genetics. If you wanted to use one of their dogs genetics, you have to buy a puppy. They also sell dogs with two prices, one with papers, and one without papers.


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## Don Turnipseed

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> They are just hogging genetics. If you wanted to use one of their dogs genetics, you have to buy a puppy. They also sell dogs with two prices, one with papers, and one without papers.


I do that. One price for no breeding rights and a high price for breeding rights. Purpose. It eliminates those that just want to have a breeding fling .


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## Jeff Oehlsen

You get to be a bastard then too. LOL


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## mike suttle

Ben Colbert said:


> A recent thread had me curious. What goes through your minds when you are deciding to breed a dog. I cringe when I see people with substandard dogs talking about breeding mostly just because they can. I've heard some breeders only breed dogs that they think will improve the breed. Seems like a decent philosophy to me if the breeder can be honest with themselves.
> 
> So what makes you guys want to take that extra step and breed two specific dogs?


I just got back from a long trip and I did not take the time to read all of the replies to this original thread. But I will offer my .02 cents here. I breed for a specific type of dog based on what my clients are looking for. I am not talking about puppies, but young green adults. In the working dog world in which we live today ( in the USA at least) the vast majority of end users working dogs on the streets are in need of strong social dogs with excellent noses. I have a few bloodlines here that tend to produce dogs which are slow to mature, a bit handler aggressive, more difficult to train, and less social than is ideal. 
As a result I have kept those lines here, but also started breeding a more user friendly type of bloodline as well. A dog that is faster to mature, easier to train and handle, not dog or handler aggressive, yet still maintaining the intensity and drive to do the work. Hunt drive is the "wave of the future" in US police and service dogs. Of course a strong and confident biter is very important, but without extreme hunt drive a police dog is worthless.
So for me what is important in my breeding dogs is intense retrieve drive for metal, extreme hunt drive, excellent environmental nerves, great health, and a strong desire to bite with courage. And I need a dog that shows these traits very early on in his life.


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## Lynda Myers

Don Turnipseed said:


> Kerry, I think the question was put to breeders. I think you said you didn't breed.


Whatever you don't train in any of the organized dog sports (Schutzhund, the Rings or PSA) and yet it doesn't keep you from repeatedly voicing your opinion. Why should Kerry not be allowed to do the same?


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## Lynda Myers

Don Turnipseed said:


> I do that. One price for no breeding rights and a high price for breeding rights. Purpose. It eliminates those that just want to have a breeding fling .


No it doesn't as they can register it with one of the fly by night puppy mill registries and still carry out with what they had planned in the beginning...use animals (dogs) as cash cows.


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## Ashley Campbell

Lynda Myers said:


> No it doesn't as they can register it with one of the fly by night puppy mill registries and still carry out with what they had planned in the beginning...use animals (dogs) as cash cows.


Even not so "fly by night" - if I am not mistaken, AKC limited registration can be registered with the UKC as full registration if you include pictures - at least that's how I read it.



> **_ Any dog registered under a non-breeding agreement (limited registration) will be required to submit three color photographs of the dog (one from each side and one from the front). All photos should be taken at eye level while the dog is standing. Photos should include the whole dog; take care and be sure to not cut off the dog's feet. _




http://www.ukcdogs.com/WebSite.nsf/WebPages/RegistrationSingleRegistration


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## Don Turnipseed

Sure, they can register them several places. But in the circle with these dogs, everyone expects to see AKC. I have never had one person ask if the dogs were UKC. If they want to breed for the money, they are going to need AKC.


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## Ashley Campbell

I was just commenting in general on that Don - kind of like a GSD, most people don't look twice at a UKC registered dog (which is usually the whites with the showing since AKC is a DQ for white color and it's not for UKC - even though long hair is with both...strange) because AKC accepts SV/FCI papers, etc.

But, anyone that wants to breed just to breed isn't going to care as long as they can paper it in some way and sell it to the first rube they meet that has a checkbook. *shrug* I see lots of "CKC registered" (Continental, not Canadian)puppies going for $200-400 here - apparently, someone is paying for it and they're getting more because it's got papers.


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## Don Turnipseed

Well, in hunting circles they don't even care if they are registered and I don't care if they breed them. What it boils down to today, is people are paying me a cou[ple hundred for the dog and $750 to $1250 for the papers. Same thing people are buying with titled dogs...paper.


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## Lynda Myers

Ashley Campbell said:


> Even not so "fly by night" - if I am not mistaken, AKC limited registration can be registered with the UKC as full registration if you include pictures - at least that's how I read it.
> 
> [/SIZE][/I]
> 
> http://www.ukcdogs.com/WebSite.nsf/WebPages/RegistrationSingleRegistration


What I had no idea!!! See there ya go Don.


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## Lynda Myers

Don Turnipseed said:


> Sure, they can register them several places. But in the circle with these dogs, everyone expects to see AKC. I have never had one person ask if the dogs were UKC. If they want to breed for the money, they are going to need AKC.


 it's not what you have experienced it's what people will do! News flash UKC is the second largest all breed registry in the country and they also promote the working dog! So while they might be small potatoes to some non working dog people, they are holding their own very well against the almighty AKC. Please believe AKC isn't the only money game in town.


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## Don Turnipseed

Must be a popular registry for bulldogs eh Lynda. Wonder how many single registered airedales there are in UKC, is there a way to find out.?


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## Ashley Campbell

http://www.ukcdogs.com/WebSite.nsf/...4c4b8e?OpenDocument&Highlight=0,Top,10,breeds

They're not on the top 50 most common breeds - then again, neither is the GSD - white shepherd is though. 
But, they've been recognized by the UKC since 1914 apparently.


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## Maureen A Osborn

Don Turnipseed said:


> Must be a popular registry for bulldogs eh Lynda. Wonder how many single registered airedales there are in UKC, is there a way to find out.?


 Therre are WAY too many registeries for the AB Don, it is disgusting. NKC,UKC,ABA,ADBA. You can get NKC(National Kennel Club) registery by hand typing up a pedigree and submitting photos of your dog...what a load of shit! And you can take those same NKC papers and register with UKC.


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## Lynda Myers

Maureen A Osborn said:


> Therre are WAY too many registeries for the AB Don, it is disgusting. NKC,UKC,ABA,ADBA. You can get NKC(National Kennel Club) registery by hand typing up a pedigree and submitting photos of your dog...what a load of shit! And you can take those same NKC papers and register with UKC.


Maureen this is true but ya missed one though, iys new the ABRA(American Bulldog Registry and Archives) their based out of Canada. I wasn't aware of the ADBA. The three main registries for ABs though are NKC (mainly southern US), ABA (West Coast) and ABRA (the bully type people mainly use it)
UKC really isn't that popular in the AB community. I thinking of using them exclusively though. Because of all the BS and politics. It's crazy how can one color be a DQ one and accepted the next? This actually happened in one of the registries. Black has always been a DQ in all of the registries and up jump the boogie one of them accepts it. What the crap. In the history of the breed the have never been black!
brindle(light/dark), brindle and white, white, red, red and white etc. same thing with eye color.

Anyway wished the breeding stock had to have a real working title of some sort and health certs. before a litter could be registered personally.


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## Lynda Myers

Don Turnipseed said:


> Must be a popular registry for bulldogs eh Lynda. Wonder how many single registered airedales there are in UKC, is there a way to find out.?


Actually no Don! This was about what you did to curtail breeding of your leftover stock. So it doesn't matter how many are actually registered that way. The point was is that it can be done quite easily.


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## Joby Becker

What is the point of all this??

If Don or anybody else sells a dog, anyone that buys it can breed it...it is their dog...Don just ain't helpin them by making it cheap AND easy...unless they are active hunters that he knows...in which case he helps em out..
can't do much more than that, aside from spay/neuter...
Kudos to Don


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## Don Turnipseed

They can even breed them AKC with a set of papers. You can't stop anything if someone wants to do it. Using phoney papers at least my name isn't on them.


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## Joby Becker

Don Turnipseed said:


> They can even breed them AKC with a set of papers. You can't stop anything if someone wants to do it. Using phoney papers at least my name isn't on them.


very true..paper hanging is as easy as voting twice  

I could register my current Dutchie X as a UKC Dutchie...an ARBA Presa/Dogo Canario, a UKC Presa. or AKC as a GSD or Rottweiler...tomorrow...if I tried ...aint gonna help me sell any dogs, but could do it..with a little help from my friends..


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## Bob Scott

Papers from ANY registration organization can be a crap shoot. Missouri puppy mills are a perfect example.
You have a litter of 4 pups but send in for 8 registration slips. You now have "legit" papers to breed those 4 dogs you picked up on the side of the road or bought dirt cheap from BYB because it had no papers. 
This is no secret or any sort of unknown, public exposure. It's a well known fact with anyone that has been involved in exposing the puppy mill creeps. 
Blame the AKC?! Neither they, the Ag Dept or whoever checks on this in your State has the ability to control this because of lack of man power.
The AKC Gazette always had/has? a list in the back pages of kennels that have been fined or dropped from registry for poor or falsified paper work. They/nobody can catch all of it.
There are naughty people out there. 8-[ 8-[ 8-[


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## Chris McDonald

mike suttle said:


> I just got back from a long trip and I did not take the time to read all of the replies to this original thread. But I will offer my .02 cents here. I breed for a specific type of dog based on what my clients are looking for. I am not talking about puppies, but young green adults. In the working dog world in which we live today ( in the USA at least) the vast majority of end users working dogs on the streets are in need of strong social dogs with excellent noses. I have a few bloodlines here that tend to produce dogs which are slow to mature, a bit handler aggressive, more difficult to train, and less social than is ideal.
> As a result I have kept those lines here, but also started breeding a more user friendly type of bloodline as well. A dog that is faster to mature, easier to train and handle, not dog or handler aggressive, yet still maintaining the intensity and drive to do the work. Hunt drive is the "wave of the future" in US police and service dogs. Of course a strong and confident biter is very important, but without extreme hunt drive a police dog is worthless.
> So for me what is important in my breeding dogs is intense retrieve drive for metal, extreme hunt drive, excellent environmental nerves, great health, and a strong desire to bite with courage. And I need a dog that shows these traits very early on in his life.


Mike, or anyone else who has breeding experience. Do you guys think or see any connection to slow to mature dogs and anything. I don’t know anything about breeding dogs and after reading Mikes post it makes it sound like there is different temperaments to dog lines that mature at a different rate. Is this something that is common across the board? Or is just a coincidence with the lines Mike has.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Other than it is irritating as ****, there is no magical difference.


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## Joby Becker

(Not speaking for Mike or anyone else....)

There are slow maturing and faster maturing (mentally) lines in pretty much most breeds I think...

The presa canario is pretty much viewed as a slow maturing mollosser. 
There were however some rustic bloodlines available when I was in the breed, that at 6-7 months of age were ready for serious work...those lines are pretty much mostly long gone, because the dominance, sharpness and social aggression did not fit into the US consuming society.

My current dog (dutchie X) was ready to seriously hurt someone at around 7-8 months..

I have no involvement in the GSD anymore, but I used to own and have seen some of the west german lines in the past that matured rather quickly, mostly dogs that came down off of Greif zum Lanthal, or out of Busecker Schloss...showing a good deal of maturity at around 8-9 months.

I also owned a couple of Schwaiger Wappen Rotts in the 90's that very capable of serious work at younger ages...and saw more...

Slow maturing dogs can turn out just as well I would say...but sometimes you have to wait more than a year or a year and 1/2 to do things that a mentally faster maturing dog can do at 6-10 months of age...


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## Chris McDonald

Again the same goes for people, in many cases you can tell good hard working kids at 12 years old. Somme don’t get going till 30 years old. If there still POS at 30 there is very little hope there gona bang it out at 40.
I been big on the people and dog comparison lately


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## Chris McDonald

Do you breeders think there are real true ****, *** dogs? For example have you ever had three dogs in a run, two being male and one being a female in heat and have one of the males mount the other male. If so is it ethically right to force the home dog to breed to the female?


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## Kerry Foose

Chris McDonald said:


> Again the same goes for people, in many cases you can tell good hard working kids at 12 years old. Somme don’t get going till 30 years old. If there still POS at 30 there is very little hope there gona bang it out at 40.
> I been big on the people and dog comparison lately


gee, I wish there were some ethics in breeding programs for people....can we say CULL!
:-# did I say that outloud?


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## Chris McDonald

No man you just typed it on the internet. It’s much worse than saying it out loud. Its harder to deny… unless you say its not really you typing and I say its not really me typing. If I cared I would just say that someone sitting on the couch in the middle of the day logged on as me while I was out at work. That brother-in-law… I mean that basted. Whoever it was


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## Joby Becker

Chris McDonald said:


> Do you breeders think there are real true ****, *** dogs? For example have you ever had three dogs in a run, two being male and one being a female in heat and have one of the males mount the other male. If so is it ethically right to force the home dog to breed to the female?


I posted about this last year, I think I have seen a truly GAY dog...LOL. seriously...


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## tracey schneider

i cant beleive im getting into this... but were these 'gay' dogs good working dogs???? Soft dogs hard dogs etc.... sounds so stupid lol

I also do the breeding rights thing for my pick male and or female.... so Im a bastard too. :-\"

t


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## Don Turnipseed

Discussing personal ethics on breeding is a BS discussion in reality. "Responsible" hobby breeders have the sheeple convinced it is ethical to save the weak pups because someone will want them Nobody in their right mind is going to want to pay for one. To me that is less than ethical. To me. culling the weak and selling good quality stock is far more "ethical"....and honest. Ethic's is a feel good term in breeding that merely absolves a person from being responsible for what they should be doing....breeding sound, quality stock. Ethics means something different to everyone like the term "drive".


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## Maureen A Osborn

Don Turnipseed said:


> Discussing personal ethics on breeding is a BS discussion in reality. "Responsible" hobby breeders have the sheeple convinced it is ethical to save the weak pups because someone will want them Nobody in their right mind is going to want to pay for one. To me that is less than ethical. To me. culling the weak and selling good quality stock is far more "ethical"....and honest. Ethic's is a feel good term in breeding that merely absolves a person from being responsible for what they should be doing....breeding sound, quality stock. Ethics means something different to everyone like the term "drive".


 Gotta agree with ya there Don....you even got idiots that think that even the deaf pups are ok to not PTS & that they still make good pets.....gimme a break!


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## Ben Colbert

Don Turnipseed said:


> Discussing personal ethics on breeding is a BS discussion in reality. "Responsible" hobby breeders have the sheeple convinced it is ethical to save the weak pups because someone will want them Nobody in their right mind is going to want to pay for one. To me that is less than ethical. To me. culling the weak and selling good quality stock is far more "ethical"....and honest. Ethic's is a feel good term in breeding that merely absolves a person from being responsible for what they should be doing....breeding sound, quality stock. Ethics means something different to everyone like the term "drive".


Totally agree with you. But isn't that why we have this forum? If we all agreed on terms, training methods, etc. then what would be the point of exchanging information?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

You would actually have to train something for anyone to take you seriously ben. Where are my thin mints ? And where the **** would be the exchange of information with you ? Proper selling techniques of cookies ? We don't talk about that here. Different forum.


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## Ben Colbert

I must have really got under your skin to bring this to a different thread. Don't worry Jeff. If I keep screwing with your head then I'm going to get my self in trouble with the mods. I think I'll just block you so I don't have to deal with your miserable attitude all the time.

Also keep in mind that you keep throwing out these insults on my training and yet I'd be the first one to tell you that my experience is limited. I ask a lot of question because I'm here to learn not try and prove how smart I am.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Just as long as I get my cookies.


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## Don Turnipseed

Ben Colbert said:


> Totally agree with you. But isn't that why we have this forum? If we all agreed on terms, training methods, etc. then what would be the point of exchanging information?


Oh, I thought the forum was here to discuss dogs basically. What we do exactly, what exact response the dog has, what might be done exactly to elicit a desired response, etc.....in plain English. In virtually every thread that mentions drives goes down the tube. No one agrees on anything from then on so there is no viable discussion of what is actually important....just about what constitutes "drive". The term ethics does the same thing. Work ethic....what do you think a work ethic is...this is what I think it is....yadda, yadda, yadda. The discussion can go into perpetuity but it usually ends up dicussing terminology not training, not dog, just "hey bro, I think drives is something else and there is a drive for everything. Ball drive, food drive, fight drive, tug drive yadda, yadda, yadda." Leave all the sound good terminology to those that simply havent got the capability to express what they do or see in a simple, everyday language common to everyone.


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## Chloe Corrigan

Gillian Schuler said:


> Chloe,
> 
> If all breeders of all dogs would keep to the standard, we would have far less problems, I agree. Here in German speaking countries, we have a strict control of what we are allowed to breed to.
> 
> Unfortunately, the fact that in the standard, it states for the GSD that strong nerves are to be a priority, half of the breeders wouldn't recognize weak nerves in dogs as their own nerves hamper them!
> 
> Wienerau is, as far as I know, completely, show lines and here, the "mentality or temperament" of the dogs is never considered. It is, I know, very hard to breed for as the heritability is low and compared with the physical attrirbutes, not easy to access. You can get rid of physical deficiencies much quicker than "temperament / mental deficiencies, i.e. "what the eye sees".
> 
> It's a pity that Alfred Hahn, one of the greatest GSD breeders, does not have translations of his reports, methodology on breeding, in English. But then, even if he did, who would take the time to read it?????
> 
> Anton, my BH, was interested in breeding GSDs but I waived it aside, as I had not enough knowledge to produce litters which could improve the breed and find, there are enough out there who do.
> 
> For instance Koos, in Holland.
> 
> We got our dogs from a good breeder, maybe not the best, but one who checked out the dogs' potential in working power before he bred.
> 
> Von den Wölfen is Thomas Lapp's Kennels, if I am correct. He breeds good sports dog (from what I have heard).


 
Yes, I've heard breeding is quite different in Germany. And I have heard some very bad things about the AKC. Even with the WDA here, Danny Spreitler suddenly resigned. I have seen for myself that nerves are not taken into consideration. I didn't hear anyone at the show I went to mention nerves, drive, or anything to do with working ability once - may have happened, but it wasn't obvious in the dogs. Bliss would be a good way to describe the shows. And lots of yelling and jumping around with things that make weird noises to try and get the dog to put it's ears up..haha.. I haven't heard of Alfred Hahn, but I would definitely be interested to read what he wrote. Or I could just learn German.

And you are correct, Thomas Lapp owns Von den Wolfen kennels. I love the look of his dogs, and the amount of effort it seems he puts in to train them! I'm so impressed by how quickly the dog I got from him, Kiki, picked up on each category of Schutzhund. Well, obedience could be a little better when there's a man with a sleeve standing in front of her, but, that's a good thing. Her drive is ballistic, and I like it that way!


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