# Muzzle test - dog's natural reaction



## Emilio Rodriguez

We tested my friend's dog today. Here's the video of it with a writeup my friend did I thought someone may find interesting.

Video: Protection Dog Muzzle Test

When it comes to protection training what we most commonly see is bitework. I like bitework as much as anybody but there's no mystery to me in it. I can take any dog with good drives and start building its intensity and confidence to the point where on cue or by recognizing a rehearsed situation the dog will shift into aggression. Depending on its genetics and how well I did the training it will withstand more or less pressure from its adversary/adversaries and will or will not be able to perform under influence of various environmental stresses. It's true that it has to be a good dog just to be able to do this. The problem is that most times bitework is done out of context so the dog is learning to be strong in bitework but there is no bridge between the aggrssion it learns and everyday situations in which it's supposed to live out its life and possibly protect his family and property.

That concept is based on the premise that a protection dog at times needs to aggress on it's own. If you don't believe this then you might as well go read something else. So how does common bitework teach the dog anything about when it's supposed to react with force against a human? The dog learns to aggress on the training field, at a decoy cracking a whip, at a decoy wearing a suit or sleeve, with any luck it will learn that when you get excited and tighten up on the leash it's time to work. How about when all those cues are gone? How about if the dog is off leash and not expecting trouble and suddenly a situation develops, how many of us are sure that the dog will take action against someone who means us harm?

The dog's motivation or the trigger to take action is what I most think about in training protection dogs. Interestingly I find that almost no people think in this direction. I've never seen a professional trainer do anything but raise the dog's aggression level and confidence through agitation. I believe the reason for this is that all but a few dogs possess the necessary strength of character and stability to perform in a forceful but discerning manner. The trainer most often opts to increase the dogs drive/aggression level thereby raising the dog's thresholds for avoidance and allowing it to deal with a human adversary. The other side of the equation is that the dog becomes so strongly conditioned to react aggressively, at the same time to stimuli that were inadvertently trained, that its discernment suffers. The dog can make a mistake, jump the gun and aggress on somebody who moved too fast or touched the handler even without malicious intent.

My goal with a protection training program is to achieve aggression in a context that makes sense to the dog, providing it with the right triggers from the start, and without sacrificing discernment. A lofty goal I know but worthwhile IMO. A little tricky to do when one of the requisites is still that the dog have a good switch or aggress reliably and fast on a word cue, but possible. I believe this requires much exposure and good obedience training, good communication between dog and handler, and many experiences with people acting good and bad, some of the bad ones resulting in the dog being allowed to engage.

All that was said so you'd understand the mindset from which I'm coming. The dog was already used to wearing a muzzle but as part of everyday situations, the muzzle was not associated with agitation. It was also his first time in that area and he's never seen the decoy before. The dog wasn't under any command and chose to sit at my side on a loose leash. When the decoy started acting aggressively he was watching him the whole time. The dog still held his position when the decoy was very close and even when I put my hand on him. Only when the decoy pushed me back he jumped forward and hit him on the chest with the muzzle.

I would say that most dogs that have received agitation would've fired up at the decoy's aggressive posturing long before. My dog is stable and sociable in public, but very alert to any developing situations. I am confident that if someone were to threaten me he will react aggressively. I was very happy with the outcome of that little scenario. But that's not the end of it. A little later the training director of the club found the right pressure to put on him and make him come out very hard, so he will make an all around excellent protection dog that I'll be able to showcase in traditional bitework and scenarios that IMO are particular to a good defensive protection dog.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: The dog wasn't under any command and chose to sit at my side on a loose leash.

So, watch wasn't a command ??? He was just randomly saying watch ???


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## James Degale

Excellent post Emilio.The dog handled himself very well indeed. Bitework training is only one component of developing the whole package in the PPD which is not as easy as people think. Good luck with your training. 

One criticism. I would like to have seen the dog fire up much more after given the "watch", which would have prevented the perp from getting close or touching you. Iin real life you could have been seriously knifed.

Stinky ass dog...that cracks me up.


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## Emilio Rodriguez

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> So, watch wasn't a command ??? He was just randomly saying watch ???


That dog had no concept of the word watch. As you can see he didn't react to it. He might as well have been cued with "asshole", would've had the same effect. Not expecting that he form an association with "watch" from just that one situation but you do it anyways. He was also told good boy after












James Degale said:


> One criticism. I would like to have seen the dog fire up much more after given the "watch", which would have prevented the perp from getting close or touching you. Iin real life you could have been seriously knifed.


Thanks James. So would I, but that will come with training. I think for a natural reaction the dog showed very good restraint and discernment.


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## Mike Di Rago

I'm not really sure of what you were looking for in that test, but I would have liked to see the dog after the impact to see how he would have reacted with the suspect on the ground and realizing he lost the bitting ability. I would like to see if he continued the fight with the suspect. Not sure that little bit of video showed all I would have liked to see.
Mike


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## Emilio Rodriguez

Mike, what do you think was the motivation of the dog in that situation?

What you want to see is the easy part. Agitation, suit work, muzzle agitation, muzzle comes off "accidentally" as the dog is pounding the shit out of the decoy while on the ground to show the dog that it can happen etc. I wouldn't say so if it wasn't the case, that particular dog has more than enough drive to do all that to the point it's not even a concern. Too much of that ground and pound and the dog may just nail the handler if he's thrown to the ground. Everything in moderation.


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## Tanya Beka

"My goal with a protection training program is to achieve aggression in a context that makes sense to the dog, providing it with the right triggers from the start, and without sacrificing discernment. A lofty goal I know but worthwhile IMO. A little tricky to do when one of the requisites is still that the dog have a good switch or aggress reliably and fast on a word cue, but possible. I believe this requires much exposure and good obedience training, good communication between dog and handler, and many experiences with people acting good and bad, some of the bad ones resulting in the dog being allowed to engage."


Very nice. I like your program and I think your dog will turn out great with more experience in different situations. You are right, the only way for a dog to know how to react in a situation is to train in it before hand. With enough exposure, the dog can cognitively think for himself and choose the right action in a certain situation for the benefit of the handler.

As for other comments on you being knifed, I would much rather be knifed once, have my dog stop a stabbing death of me as you did in this situation, than have my dog react too early and bite the wrong person, thereby ending my dog's life or opening up a lawsuit. Maybe the aggressor is mentally deficient somehow and your dog barking at him or biting him could cause some serious issues for this person and you as a handler of the dog, not to mention the life of the dog who bites the poor guy with schizophrenia down the road as he was loudly trying to say hi to you.

Very nice work.


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## todd pavlus

Quote: "As for other comments on you being knifed, I would much rather be knifed once, have my dog stop a stabbing death of me as you did in this situation, than have my dog react too early and bite the wrong person, thereby ending my dog's life or opening up a lawsuit. Maybe the aggressor is mentally deficient somehow and your dog barking at him or biting him could cause some serious issues for this person and you as a handler of the dog, not to mention the life of the dog who bites the poor guy with schizophrenia down the road as he was loudly trying to say hi to you."

You rather be stabbed then have your dog react to early. That sounds mentally deficient to me. You better hope that the guy with the knife has shitty aim.


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## Mike Di Rago

Emillio,
I don't know why you say what I wanted to see. I think I made it clear that I wish the video would have lasted longer and the handler not interfere with the dog's natural reaction. I wanted to see what the dog would have done once he realized he couldn't bite the suspect. Would he have continued or given up? It is too easy to speculate, I want to see to believe! This sort of test is also only valid if the dog never did this before, otherwise it is only conditioning him.
So the only thing I saw in this video was the dog being charged and reacting forward and the handler pulling him back. So, I maintain that I would have liked to see a bit more of the dogs reaction without handler pulling him back.
Mike


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## Emilio Rodriguez

OK I just jumped too far ahead. What you said in your first post Mike implied that the expectation is for the dog to continue with the attack once the bad guy was on the ground. To me that would be a product of training, more specifically muzzle training. To answer your question the dog would have done nothing past what it did in the video, he probably would've been quicker to engage with this guy if he came to the handler again ie wouldn't let him get as close as he did the first time. The dog showed good natural restrained and only acted to neutralize a threat. Once the guy was on the ground there was no more threat. While it was an experience that the dog will keep I wouldn't call it training, it was a test of the dog's natural reaction as I stated in the thread title nothing more. There is no question in my mind based on the drives this dog possess that with training he would continue the attack on the ground with the muzzle on. I'm not sure this is something I want. I would be more concerned with a possible second assailant and having the dog return back to me.


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## James Degale

I take it this is a green dog and the muzzle is being used to test what the dog would do if someone actually made physical aggression or contact with the owner. Not to be confused with muzzle training which is different of course. 

I think the rottie did well. No avoidance, stable, showed enough defense for my liking, handler oriented. If he has the right drives, it would not be a problem to put some nice control and bitework on him and to train the scenarios you wanted. 

Regarding recall during multiple assailant scenario, I find the higher the prey, the more difficult. The higher the defense/prey ratio the dog becomes more naturally handler protective and the dog disengages more readily to redirect. Just my experience.


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## James Degale

Tanya Beka said:


> As for other comments on you being knifed, I would much rather be knifed once, have my dog stop a stabbing death of me as you did in this situation, than have my dog react too early and bite the wrong person, thereby ending my dog's life or opening up a lawsuit. Maybe the aggressor is mentally deficient somehow and your dog barking at him or biting him could cause some serious issues for this person and you as a handler of the dog, not to mention the life of the dog who bites the poor guy with schizophrenia down the road as he was loudly trying to say hi to you.
> 
> Very nice work.


So you want a dog that will bite only AFTER you have a 6 inch hole where your heart or intestines used to be. Well, then you can thank me after you come out of major surgery for the wonderful dog I supplied you. 

I tell my clients to 
1. avoid, try and remove yourself from potential conflict
2. fire up the dog
3. tell the perp to stay away and shout for help
4. last resort bite

A person who keeps approaching after step 3 is intent on harming you.


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## Emilio Rodriguez

How sharp someone wants their dog is individual preference and depends on their circumstances. I would want my dog to turn on instantly with a cue. But in absence of a cue I find the reaction of the rott to be about right for my situation, a good balance between protection and risk of liability.

On the few occasions if at all that a civilian would use their dog there may not be time to cue it.


James Degale said:


> Regarding recall during multiple assailant scenario, I find the higher the prey, the more difficult. The higher the defense/prey ratio the dog becomes more naturally handler protective and the dog disengages more readily to redirect. Just my experience.


Exactly. And there's lots of prey in PSD muzzle training.


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## Tanya Beka

todd pavlus said:


> Quote: "As for other comments on you being knifed, I would much rather be knifed once, have my dog stop a stabbing death of me as you did in this situation, than have my dog react too early and bite the wrong person, thereby ending my dog's life or opening up a lawsuit. Maybe the aggressor is mentally deficient somehow and your dog barking at him or biting him could cause some serious issues for this person and you as a handler of the dog, not to mention the life of the dog who bites the poor guy with schizophrenia down the road as he was loudly trying to say hi to you."
> 
> You rather be stabbed then have your dog react to early. That sounds mentally deficient to me. You better hope that the guy with the knife has shitty aim.


I don't think name calling is necessary when someone is expressing an opinion. 

I merely say that I get sick and tired of seeing PP dogs with No control...dogs that bite before they know what the situation is. Dogs that aren't even halfway trained and are in the hands of a person with a big ego who only wants to have a big scary dog. I was merely saying that I think a dog trained like this is far more useful and less of a legal liability than a "typical" PPD who is trained to bite anything that comes too close. PPD's are too often traind to react to people with canes and sticks...but granny could come up and give me a hug with her cane in her hand I don't want my dog to attack her. I'm not saying I'd rather be stabbed literally, but I'd rather have a dog like this than one that bites anyone who seems threatening.

#1: How many people are going to attack you with a knife while you have a 100lb rottweiler sitting next to you?

#2: How often does this situation really happen anyways? More often than not the dog needs to learn when NOT to bite or attack, not when TO attack. Trainers often forget this part and all the shitty PPD trainers out there train dogs that end up biting granny because they don't know any better.

Let's be realistic.


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## Tanya Beka

Emilio Rodriguez said:


> How sharp someone wants their dog is individual preference and depends on their circumstances. I would want my dog to turn on instantly with a cue. But in absence of a cue I find the reaction of the rott to be about right for my situation, a good balance between protection and risk of liability.


Thank you for expressing my thoughts in perhaps a slightly easier way to understand. I'm tired, been a long day and I think I rambled my explanation. This is a nice concise version of what I'm trying to say.


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## Jerry Lyda

Emilio, I think the training was fine. I don't like to muzzle fight on the ground but that's a theroy of mine. What I did have a problem with and it has nothing to do with the training. If you are on someones property and he asks you to leave you had better do it and NOT let your dog bite him. If you do he'll see you in court and your dog will be gone. I had rather seen you telling this guy to get off your property and him doing what he did in your video. The message you put out is not good for the people that don't understand this.


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## James Degale

I was thinking the same but I took that with a pinch of salt, part of a training scenario. 

In PPD training we encourage clients to automatically shout "help", "please leave me alone", "don't hurt me" etc. even if it out of context of the situation you are in. You must always appear as the victim AND make it clear to surrounding witnessess that you are the victim, especially if in the next few seconds your dog is going to bite someone. This will stand you in a better state with the cops and in court. Plus this also sorts out the assailants with real intent, some will back off when they hear you screaming "help" like a loony. Standing there arguing with the person will escalate the chances of a confrontation which I always discourage.


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## Emilio Rodriguez

Picky picky picky..







Take it with a grain of salt is exactly right. No one knew how the decoy was going to behave. The bit on "you're on my property" was as creative as "stinky ass dog". What matters was that the words helped him assume the role which I think he did very well. To the dog it's not relevant, what is relevant is that dog and handler were not in the dog's territory so that other factors are eliminated and it can be concluded that the dog's reaction was relative to the handler.

Speaking for my case I don't think I can fake the victim mindset in a tense situation. My best bet is being preemptive with the dog and in such a situation I'm concentrated on handling not acting out "help, help". If the tables are really turned and I didn't have a chance to use the dog preemptively this is exactly where I'd want the dog to react on his own. It's difficult for me to envision a situation where I'd be using a dog and help would be available out of the blue. Acting really hurt in training is something I like to do. The dog is tied out with me holding the line running through a stake in the ground. I get attacked by the decoy and let the line go. The comes in to attack the decoy from a distance.


Tanya Beka said:


> I don't think name calling is necessary when someone is expressing an opinion..


Tanya, don't waste your time with Todd, here's my solution.


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## Tanya Beka

Emilio Rodriguez said:


> Picky picky picky..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Take it with a grain of salt is exactly right. No one knew how the decoy was going to behave. The bit on "you're on my property" was as creative as "stinky ass dog". What matters was that the words helped him assume the role which I think he did very well. To the dog it's not relevant, what is relevant is that dog and handler were not in the dog's territory so that other factors are eliminated and it can be concluded that the dog's reaction was relative to the handler.
> 
> Speaking for my case I don't think I can fake the victim mindset in a tense situation. My best bet is being preemptive with the dog and in such a situation I'm concentrated on handling not acting out "help, help". If the tables are really turned and I didn't have a chance to use the dog preemptively this is exactly where I'd want the dog to react on his own. It's difficult for me to envision a situation where I'd be using a dog and help would be available out of the blue. Acting really hurt in training is something I like to do. The dog is tied out with me holding the line running through a stake in the ground. I get attacked by the decoy and let the line go. The comes in to attack the decoy from a distance.Tanya, don't waste your time with Todd, here's my solution.


Thank you Emilio, I didn't know that was an option.  Most appreciated. I, like others, am here to learn, experience and grow in regards to dogs, not argue.


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## Tim Martens

Emilio Rodriguez said:


> We tested my friend's dog today. Here's the video of it with a writeup my friend did I thought someone may find interesting.
> 
> Video: Protection Dog Muzzle Test
> 
> When it comes to protection training what we most commonly see is bitework. I like bitework as much as anybody but there's no mystery to me in it. I can take any dog with good drives and start building its intensity and confidence to the point where on cue or by recognizing a rehearsed situation the dog will shift into aggression. Depending on its genetics and how well I did the training it will withstand more or less pressure from its adversary/adversaries and will or will not be able to perform under influence of various environmental stresses. It's true that it has to be a good dog just to be able to do this. The problem is that most times bitework is done out of context so the dog is learning to be strong in bitework but there is no bridge between the aggrssion it learns and everyday situations in which it's supposed to live out its life and possibly protect his family and property.
> 
> *That concept is based on the premise that a protection dog at times needs to aggress on it's own. If you don't believe this then you might as well go read something else. *So how does common bitework teach the dog anything about when it's supposed to react with force against a human? The dog learns to aggress on the training field, at a decoy cracking a whip, at a decoy wearing a suit or sleeve, with any luck it will learn that when you get excited and tighten up on the leash it's time to work. How about when all those cues are gone? How about if the dog is off leash and not expecting trouble and suddenly a situation develops, how many of us are sure that the dog will take action against someone who means us harm?
> 
> The dog's motivation or the trigger to take action is what I most think about in training protection dogs. Interestingly I find that almost no people think in this direction. I've never seen a professional trainer do anything but raise the dog's aggression level and confidence through agitation. I believe the reason for this is that all but a few dogs possess the necessary strength of character and stability to perform in a forceful but discerning manner. The trainer most often opts to increase the dogs drive/aggression level thereby raising the dog's thresholds for avoidance and allowing it to deal with a human adversary. The other side of the equation is that the dog becomes so strongly conditioned to react aggressively, at the same time to stimuli that were inadvertently trained, that its discernment suffers. The dog can make a mistake, jump the gun and aggress on somebody who moved too fast or touched the handler even without malicious intent.
> 
> My goal with a protection training program is to achieve aggression in a context that makes sense to the dog, providing it with the right triggers from the start, and without sacrificing discernment. A lofty goal I know but worthwhile IMO. A little tricky to do when one of the requisites is still that the dog have a good switch or aggress reliably and fast on a word cue, but possible. I believe this requires much exposure and good obedience training, good communication between dog and handler, and many experiences with people acting good and bad, some of the bad ones resulting in the dog being allowed to engage.
> 
> All that was said so you'd understand the mindset from which I'm coming. The dog was already used to wearing a muzzle but as part of everyday situations, the muzzle was not associated with agitation. It was also his first time in that area and he's never seen the decoy before. The dog wasn't under any command and chose to sit at my side on a loose leash. When the decoy started acting aggressively he was watching him the whole time. The dog still held his position when the decoy was very close and even when I put my hand on him. Only when the decoy pushed me back he jumped forward and hit him on the chest with the muzzle.
> 
> I would say that most dogs that have received agitation would've fired up at the decoy's aggressive posturing long before. My dog is stable and sociable in public, but very alert to any developing situations. I am confident that if someone were to threaten me he will react aggressively. I was very happy with the outcome of that little scenario. But that's not the end of it. A little later the training director of the club found the right pressure to put on him and make him come out very hard, so he will make an all around excellent protection dog that I'll be able to showcase in traditional bitework and scenarios that IMO are particular to a good defensive protection dog.


brb. reading something else...

guard dog aggress on it's own? absolutely. a "protection dog" that is supposed to be out in the public and trustworthy around strangers? no thanks. i only want the dog to be aggressive when i tell it to...


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## David Frost

Tim Martens said:


> brb. reading something else...
> 
> guard dog aggress on it's own? absolutely. a "protection dog" that is supposed to be out in the public and trustworthy around strangers? no thanks. i only want the dog to be aggressive when i tell it to...



I agree Tim. Not unlike a patrol dog, attentive yes, on-guard yes, wants to bite - acceptable, but does not until told. I also qualify that statement with; if handler is attacked, dog will without command.

DFrost


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## Emilio Rodriguez

Very short sighted. Stick to patrol dogs.


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## David Frost

Emilio Rodriguez said:


> Very short sighted. Stick to patrol dogs.


I'll do just that. I like predictable, controlled behavior.

DFrost


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## Tim Martens

that last post inspired me to pick this BS apart lou castle style...



Emilio Rodriguez said:


> We tested my friend's dog today. Here's the video of it with a writeup my friend did I thought someone may find interesting.
> 
> Video: Protection Dog Muzzle Test
> 
> When it comes to protection training what we most commonly see is bitework. I like bitework as much as anybody but there's no mystery to me in it. I can take any dog with good drives and start building its intensity and confidence to the point where *on cue or by recognizing a rehearsed situation the dog will shift into aggression.* Depending on its genetics and how well I did the training it will withstand more or less pressure from its adversary/adversaries and will or will not be able to perform under influence of various environmental stresses. It's true that it has to be a good dog just to be able to do this. The problem is that most times bitework is done out of context so the dog is learning to be strong in bitework but there is no bridge between the aggrssion it learns and everyday situations in which it's supposed to live out its life and possibly protect his family and property.


there is no ground breaking idea here. the idea that a bite dog needs to have realistic, scenario based training was not born in this thread believe it or not. interesting about the cues, but we'll get to that later.




Emilio Rodriguez said:


> That concept is based on the premise that a protection dog at times needs to aggress on it's own. If you don't believe this then you might as well go read something else. So how does common bitework teach the dog anything about when it's supposed to react with force against a human? The dog learns to aggress on the training field, at a decoy cracking a whip, at a decoy wearing a suit or sleeve, with any luck it will learn that when you get excited and tighten up on the leash it's time to work. How about when all those cues are gone? How about if the dog is off leash and not expecting trouble and suddenly a situation develops, how many of us are sure that the dog will take action against someone who means us harm?


once again, don't confuse drive building or bite foundation training with scenario training. the two are not mutually exclusive. you can and should do both. where are all these personal protection dogs that you know of that don't do scenario training? i would wager that those people are probably dabbling in some type of sport and are not at all serious about training their dog for real life confrontations.




Emilio Rodriguez said:


> The dog's motivation or the trigger to take action is what I most think about in training protection dogs. Interestingly I find that almost no people think in this direction. I've never seen a professional trainer do anything but raise the dog's aggression level and confidence through agitation. I believe the reason for this is that all but a few dogs possess the necessary strength of character and stability to perform in a forceful but discerning manner. The trainer most often opts to increase the dogs drive/aggression level thereby raising the dog's thresholds for avoidance and allowing it to deal with a human adversary. The other side of the equation is that the dog becomes so strongly conditioned to react aggressively, at the same time to stimuli that were inadvertently trained, that its discernment suffers. The dog can make a mistake, jump the gun and aggress on somebody who moved too fast or touched the handler even without malicious intent.



once again, you are speaking about poor training, not some universally accepted PP training that everyone else but you subscribes to. i've often found that people who de-emphasize the importance of drive, usually have a dog that doesn't possess much of it. again, this is where a PP and a PSD will split. i not only need my dog to engage a suspect, he has to have the drive to hunt for the guy for long periods of time. your mythical "discernment" will not carry the dog through in these situations. the only thing that will is drive. 




Emilio Rodriguez said:


> My goal with a protection training program is to achieve aggression in a context that makes sense to the dog, providing it with the right triggers from the start, and without sacrificing discernment. A lofty goal I know but worthwhile IMO. A little tricky to do when one of the requisites is still that the dog have a good switch or aggress reliably and fast on a word cue, but possible. I believe this requires much exposure and good obedience training, good communication between dog and handler, and many experiences with people acting good and bad, some of the bad ones resulting in the dog being allowed to engage.


here is where this all starts to fall apart. in one breath you criticise trainers who train dogs to aggress in certain situations, yet now you talk about providing it with the right triggers. what exactly does that mean? if the dog uses it's own judgment to decide what to bite, why does it need triggers? further in this paragraph you talk about things like "exposure" and the dog needing "many experiences with people acting good and bad". again, according to you, the type of dog you look for either has it or doesn't. see the thing that you PP people sometimes fail to realize is that you cannot possibly train every situation imaginable. there are so many variables that the team will encounter on a real bite, that one could not possibly begin to reliably train for each one (here's where your theory meets my practice). so what we have to train for are the more commonly encountered situations, make sure the dog is reliable in those, and try to infuse weird and bizarre scenarios when we can, but each time we make sure the dog is under control and he does not bite until told by the handler. 




Emilio Rodriguez said:


> All that was said so you'd understand the mindset from which I'm coming. The dog was already used to wearing a muzzle but as part of everyday situations, the muzzle was not associated with agitation. It was also his first time in that area and he's never seen the decoy before. The dog wasn't under any command and chose to sit at my side on a loose leash. When the decoy started acting aggressively he was watching him the whole time. The dog still held his position when the decoy was very close and even when I put my hand on him. Only when the decoy pushed me back he jumped forward and hit him on the chest with the muzzle.


it's good that the dog does not associate the muzzle with bitework. well done. you're not seriously trying to sell this as a foreign environment are you? new area? so what. the dog is on leash at it's handler's side. that is a picture he's seen many, many times. new decoy? so what. he acts in a manner similar to every decoy i've ever seen. the distance, the yelling, etc. the dog shows good restraint as you say, but is this a case of good control, good discernment (lol), high threshold, or low drive? we don't know. we'd have to see the dog in other situations. i have my own guess on which one or two it is. 





Emilio Rodriguez said:


> I would say that most dogs that have received agitation would've fired up at the decoy's aggressive posturing long before. My dog is stable and sociable in public, but very alert to any developing situations. I am confident that if someone were to threaten me he will react aggressively. I was very happy with the outcome of that little scenario. But that's not the end of it. A little later the training director of the club found the right pressure to put on him and make him come out very hard, so he will make an all around excellent protection dog that I'll be able to showcase in traditional bitework and scenarios that IMO are particular to a good defensive protection dog.


i'm glad you are happy with your dog's performance. that is very important. i have seen a few handlers that weren't that fond of their dog for one reason or another and usually, that's not a very good team. having said that, i would be much more comfortable with you using it as an example of one way a PP could work, rather than telling us that your dull dog should be the model for all PP dogs...


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## Emilio Rodriguez

David Frost said:


> I'll do just that. I like predictable, controlled behavior.
> 
> DFrost


It's like saying that you can't trust a strong dog around a child. It is an accepted fact that you don't leave a small child alone with a strong protection dog. The results of the dog aggressing on a small child can be disastrous. I abide by this rule. BUT, those of us who own good strong dogs reach a point where we know what the dog IS. We know how it reacts in many different situations, we understand it's motivation. The bitework has been done in such a way so as not to cloud the dog's judgment, so that conditioned aggressive responses to certain stimuli do not override its discernment. As such I find myself on a regular basis in one room with the child and the dog in another room out of my direct line of sight. The truth of the matter is that if something were to happen it would be very fast and much damage will be done before I get to the dog. Still here we are.

I think handlers on patrol dogs rely mostly on conditioned response. While that certainly is a factor in owning a protection dog there is much more to it. It's not all about drive to do this or that.


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## Gerry Grimwood

Emilio Rodriguez said:


> Very short sighted. Stick to patrol dogs.


I know next to nothing about PP dogs, but the video to me just showed a dog that had to make a choice and it chose to give the person that was almost on top of him a very small push back and quit immediately afterwards, maybe that's how it's supposed to be, I dunno.

One thing I do know is that everyone *I've* met that owns a Rott has the ability to change reality to suit them and their dogs.


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## Emilio Rodriguez

Tim Martens said:


> here is where this all starts to fall apart. in one breath you criticise trainers who train dogs to aggress in certain situations, yet now you talk about providing it with the right triggers. what exactly does that mean? if the dog uses it's own judgment to decide what to bite, why does it need triggers? further in this paragraph you talk about things like "exposure" and the dog needing "many experiences with people acting good and bad". again, according to you, the type of dog you look for either has it or doesn't. see the thing that you PP people sometimes fail to realize is that you cannot possibly train every situation imaginable. there are so many variables that the team will encounter on a real bite, that one could not possibly begin to reliably train for each one (here's where your theory meets my practice). so what we have to train for are the more commonly encountered situations, make sure the dog is reliable in those, and try to infuse weird and bizarre scenarios when we can, but each time we make sure the dog is under control and he does not bite until told by the handler.


Your whole premise rides on the fact that you don't believe a dog can recognize threat or a challenge on an intrinsic level. It is probably true that in your selection for American PSD you do not look for an element of social aggression in a dog. It is precisely that which is the trigger and allows the dog to perform in situations that have never been rehearsed. Stick to what you know and don't waste my time with this "breaking down" shit that only shows you've never known dogs that are capable of this. I'd like to see you back up your words and try to assault my friend with the dog not wearing a muzzle.


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## Kyle Sprag

LOL, what is the point of a family "PPD" if you can't leave it with your kids? ](*,) ](*,)


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## Dwyras Brown

Speaking of discernment. I have seen PSD's that knew it was time to go to work and their attitudes changed. That same dog at home was just great with the family (kids included). But let the handler's attitude change a little and the dog picked up on it and his personality showed a change. That is discernment any way you look at it. Notice the dogs are often taken to schools and are around kids. They are able to discern between a POS and innocent kids. Any *GOOD* dog worth the time to train can learn discernment.


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## Dwyras Brown

Emilio in your next video let the dog continue with the fight and then call him off. Also let the decoy pressure the dog, that way you have a better understanding whether or not the dog has the heart to fight when the fight is being brought to him. He is a formidable looking animal, but maybe not to a person on drugs.


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## Tim Martens

Emilio Rodriguez said:


> Your whole premise rides on the fact that you don't believe a dog can recognize threat or a challenge on an intrinsic level. It is probably true that in your selection for American PSD you do not look for an element of social aggression in a dog. It is precisely that which is the trigger and allows the dog to perform in situations that have never been rehearsed. Stick to what you know and don't waste my time with this "breaking down" shit that only shows you've never known dogs that are capable of this. I'd like to see you back up your words and try to assault my friend with the dog not wearing a muzzle.


no, my whole premise rides on the fact that i don't WANT a dog to make it's own decisions on who to bite. our society is far too litigious for me to let a dog make a use of force decision. i'm not willing to put my house on it, and my department isn't willing to put their money on it (which, as we know, is the public's money). the dog and handler are a team. i choose to let the human half of the equation do the discerning. 

social aggression requires no trigger. you should get your terms straight before you try and use them. since you've never handled or trained a PSD, i would caution you about your assumptions in what we look for. getting a dog to bite a passive subject (something you PP gurus shouldn't be concerned with) without having at least a bit of social aggression can be a very challenging task. of course we look for it. 

stick to what i know? my dogs have bitten people in real life many times. how many times has your half dead rottie done that?


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## Emilio Rodriguez

*mod edit* I'm not going to waste my time with you here nor will you waste anyone's time on the other forum.

I can't see some of the responses here due to my choosing but it seems the thread has run its predictable course with some knowitalls infallibly joining in the fun to criticize the performance of an exceptional dog. Before you continue running your mouth off lets see you and your best dog perform a similar test. New area with no cues, strange decoy not wearing any gear nor behaving the way a decoy normally does, dog not under the influence of any command and wearing a muzzle (provided it's not been agitated in muzzle). If this is the case have it tied down near by without the dog realizing it's restrained.. Video it, come back here, then talk. You may realize that finding a decoy that can act it out convincingly is a challenge in itself.


----------



## Gerry Grimwood

Emilio Rodriguez said:


> Before you continue running your mouth off lets see you and your best dog perform a similar test. New area with no cues, strange decoy not wearing any gear nor behaving the way a decoy does, dog not under the influence of any command and wearing a muzzle (provided it's not been agitated in muzzle). If this is the case have it tied down near by without the dog realizing it's restrained.. Video it, come back here, then talk.


This one is pretty close and has similar content  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzAEixrwi8Y


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## Jerry Lyda

PPD trainers are different. All don't train like others. Emilio sorry but I don't agree with your style of training. I would rather have the PPD that don't go off the deep end. One that I can take to schools and teach children how to approach dogs, dog safety. One that I can take anywhere and not be afraid, watchful yes and attentive to my dog. One that my grandkids can play with, under a watchful eye always. One that will allow petting from someone yet agress when I am agressed on by that same person. I like the light switch dog not the dog that has been trained in so much defense. I'm not downing your way of training, it's just not my way. I just disagree with you. That's what makes the world go around.

David, I do agree with you.


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## Emilio Rodriguez

You see training? All I see is a test.

But I definitely incorporate defensive scenarios with a muzzle as experiences for the dog to learn from apart from traditional attack training. There are times when I want the dog to act preemptively and a good switch is something I insist on putting into a protection dog.


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## Kyle Sprag

Here is one, best house dog and Kid dog I have ever had but would F you up if needed. Here he is being handled and tested for me by a friend a little over three years ago.

at around 2:30 you can see what Muzzle work looks like.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQVr16EY-jE


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## David Frost

Jerry, if you remember, I patted that horse you call a GSD on the head several times. I did not however, slap you on the back while that dog was there, ha ha. He had me convinced he was serious. 

DFrost


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## Emilio Rodriguez

> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQVr16EY-jE


Wow, that was impressive, another dog hanging off a suit. I guess you guys won't feel at ease until you see a dog that runs out and bites a suit. I'll just have to oblige. I think it will take us at least a couple of sessions so tune in later, same bat time same bat channel, ta ta.


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## Kyle Sprag

Emilio Rodriguez said:


> Wow, that was impressive, another dog hanging off a suit. I guess you guys won't feel at ease until you see a dog that runs out and bites a suit. I'll just have to oblige. I think it will take us at least a couple of sessions so tune in later, same bat time same bat channel, ta ta.


 
The video was posted for the Muzzle work section at around 2:10. and about Temperment around Kids.


Nice try though [-X


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## Gerry Grimwood

Something that I do not understand about PP dogs, probably more about the owners. For example, I don't know if that was Emilio in that video or not but the guy seemed big enough to protect himself.

I honestly don't understand why any individual of normal or larger size needs a dog to protect them, of course some say it's to protect family members but in the same breath admit that the dog is only around kids and such under strict supervision, if you're already there, why do you need a dog to do this ?

I would assume most dogs wouldn't be very effective with more than one assailant, am I missing something very basic here or what ?


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## Mike Scheiber

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Something that I do not understand about PP dogs, probably more about the owners. For example, I don't know if that was Emilio in that video or not but the guy seemed big enough to protect himself.
> 
> I honestly don't understand why any individual of normal or larger size needs a dog to protect them, of course some say it's to protect family members but in the same breath admit that the dog is only around kids and such under strict supervision, if you're already there, why do you need a dog to do this ?
> 
> I would assume most dogs wouldn't be very effective with more than one assailant, am I missing something very basic here or what ?


I think many times it has to do with the size of one's pecker


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## Gerry Grimwood

I'm not sure about the pecker comment, but I'll tell you this, I had 2 of these dogs at the same time quite a few years ago( about 20 to be close) and they would bite anyone on the property.

They had no training except for basic OB, a goofy picture for sure bit that was the mid 80's. I just took a pic of a pic. 

http://www.workingdogforum.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=1232&c=12


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## Emilio Rodriguez

Kyle Sprag said:


> The video was posted for the Muzzle work section at around 2:10. and about Temperment around Kids.
> 
> 
> Nice try though [-X


Kyle, maybe I misunderstood your intentions. I saw the muzzle agitation and it was good. However this is not what the thread is about. Think about it for a moment, what do you really need for a dog to work that way in muzzle? Strong prey drive and good training. What is a dog working in this fashion demonstrating? Strong desire to engage the decoy. Based on what I saw in the vid the dog will bite for real, but this thread is not about that, it is about discrimination on the part of the dog. You shouldn't assume that the kind of muzzle work you showed in the vid is not familiar to me.

The style of muzzle work you showed is done to ensure that the dog can work offensively and will bite a man without protective gear on, sometimes as a means to frustrate and intensify the dog's desire to engage. Why is there a doubt in the first place whether the dog will engage? I don't need muzzle work for this. I make sure right from the foundation that the dog has the necessary drives to bite a man for real and is targeting the man. My dog not being a patrol dog I also don't want to do too much bitework on a prostrate decoy, it's just not applicable to my situation. A lot of muzzle agitation ends up with the decoy on the ground. This can lead to problems.


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## todd pavlus

David Frost said:


> I'll do just that. I like predictable, controlled behavior.
> 
> DFrost


In the world of k-9 training whether it be PP, sport, or police k9 experiance is everything. And from what I have read since being on this forum, I would stick with David's training to. The knowledge he has is invaluable. I believe most police k9 are great protecters and family dogs, you can't always say that about PP dogs that are trained by hodge podge neighborhood thugs.


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## Kyle Sprag

Emilio Rodriguez said:


> Kyle, maybe I misunderstood your intentions. I saw the muzzle agitation and it was good. However this is not what the thread is about. Think about it for a moment, what do you really need for a dog to work that way in muzzle? Strong prey drive and good training. What is a dog working in this fashion demonstrating? Strong desire to engage the decoy. Based on what I saw in the vid the dog will bite for real, but this thread is not about that, it is about discrimination on the part of the dog. You shouldn't assume that the kind of muzzle work you showed in the vid is not familiar to me.
> 
> The style of muzzle work you showed is done to ensure that the dog can work offensively and will bite a man without protective gear on, sometimes as a means to frustrate and intensify the dog's desire to engage. Why is there a doubt in the first place whether the dog will engage? I don't need muzzle work for this. I make sure right from the foundation that the dog has the necessary drives to bite a man for real and is targeting the man. My dog not being a patrol dog I also don't want to do too much bitework on a prostrate decoy, it's just not applicable to my situation. A lot of muzzle agitation ends up with the decoy on the ground. This can lead to problems.


That dog is being tested and trained for "sport"


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## Tim Martens

just to give everyone a little insight into this guy...

reference was made to another forum. i decided to visit the recently formed protection dog forum. low and behold i had been banned (*mod edit). had that been the end of it there would be no big problem. however this (mod edit)decided to direct my browser to some gay male sight that then crashed my browser. 

*mod edit*

if you don't want people to call you on the incredibly stupid sh!t you say, maybe you shouldn't say it...


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## Chris McDonald

Emilio, thanks for making me look good... I need all the help I can get.


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## Emilio Rodriguez

Kyle Sprag said:


> That dog is being tested and trained for "sport"


Which sport requires muzzle attacks?

If you're training for sport then the whole thing is arbitrary. You don't have the concerns that I do.


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## Gerry Grimwood

Emilio Rodriguez said:


> Which sport requires muzzle attacks?
> 
> If you're training for sport then the whole thing is arbitrary. You don't have the concerns that I do.


And that concern would be maybe...do these shorts make me look fatter than my dog ??

Your dog wont fool anyone that's not under the influence of something.


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## Kyle Sprag

there are sports that require high level Muzzle work.


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## Emilio Rodriguez

I don't get it, I asked you a simple question. Is it a secret which dog sport includes muzzle attacks? I'm not into dog sports so I don't have an idea. I know SCH doesn't have it, I can't remember French ring having it, not sure about KNPV. In recent years there have been new ones so which is it?


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## Matthew Grubb

Emilio Rodriguez said:


> lets see you and your best dog perform a similar test. New area with no cues, strange decoy not wearing any gear nor behaving the way a decoy normally does, dog not under the influence of any command.... .


Emilio…. Apart from the reacting without command part, this is what a handful of us here do for a living every day. You are blowing off years of practical experience in the subject matter.


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## Emilio Rodriguez

Let me get straight what it is that PSD handlers do every day.

Do you as a K9 handler own a dog?

Did you identify what the tasks are which the dog will be required to perform?

Did you research and explore which breeds will best perform those tasks?

Did you select the individual dog?

Did you pay for the dog?

Did you assume responsibility for the dog's vaccination, parasite control and other protocols?

Did you raise, socialize and do all the foundation training with the dog?

Throughout this time did take pains to help the dog fit within the structure of your family unit which includes small children, other pets, visitors, neighbors etc.?

Did you think out a training program catered to that particular dog and procure decoys that are capable of following your training program?

After all this was done do you:

Leave the dog alone at your home expecting it to protect your home against intrusion?

When you leave the dog with your wife and child do you count on the dog to be safe around them but still provide security against intruders even though the wife and child are not capable of handling the dog the way you do?

When you're at your place of business and the dog is there for security, has to be neutral to all comers, yet when threat presents itself and you're staring down the barrel of a gun with your mouth open in surprise, will your dog neutralize the threat without you having said "packen"?

Are you personally liable if the dog bites someone as part of a "justifiable" situation?

I could go on and on. Do you have years of experience doing this? How old are you? I'm 40 and been training protection dogs before some of these sport venues came about and while many American police departments were still doing public relations convincing their superiors to allow them to have a K9 unit. I don't need your buddy to tell me how and when my dog should protect because he's a "K9 handler". The same way I don't need to hear from him what kind of hand gun I should use just because he's mandated by his department to use whatever.


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## Matthew Grubb

Let me get straight what it is that PSD handlers do every day.

A: Put their dogs in “New area with no cues, strange decoy (suspect) not wearing any gear nor behaving the way a decoy (suspect) normally does." The situations we deal with are tense, uncertain, and rapidly evolving…. Especially in K9.

Do you own a dog?

A: Yes, 3 are mine… one is the departments.

Did you identify what the tasks are which the dog will be required to perform?

A: Yes

Did you research and explore which breeds will best perform those tasks?

A: Yes.

Did you select the individual dog?

A: Yes.

Did you pay for the dog?

A: No, the department did.

Did you assume responsibility for the dog's vaccination, parasite control and other protocols?

A: Yes

Did you raise, socialize and do all the foundation training with the dog?

A: No

Throughout this time did you pay attention to help the dog fit within the structure of your family unit which includes small children, other pets, visitors, neighbors etc.?

A: Yes and no… I brought an adult, aggressive, and dominant dog with bite training into my house and made it fit within the structure of my family unit which includes small children, other pets, visitors, neighbors etc

Did you think out a training program catered to that particular dog and procure decoys that are capable of following your training program?

A: Yes

After all this was done do you:

Leave the dog alone at your home expecting it to protect your home against intrusion?

A: No.. when I leave the house he goes in a crate because he’s destructive and likes ripping cushions apart. 

When you leave the dog with your wife and child do you count on the dog to be safe around them but still provide security against intruders even though the wife and child are not capable of handling the dog the way you do?

A: No... I don’t want my wife and kids involved in any of that. I want them locked in the bedroom dialing 911. Our Rott, Cairn Terrier, and Yorkie can fend for themselves.

When you're at your place of business and the dog is there for security, has to be neutral to all comers, yet when threat presents itself and you're staring down the barrel of a gun with your mouth open in surprise, will your dog neutralize the threat without you having said "packen"?

Hmm… no.. he wouldn’t. He would stay in a sit or down until I told him otherwise…because that’s how we train. I could scream, yell, dive into bushes, give my deployment warnings, have the bad guy waive a gun, yell, scream, dive into the bushes, crawl past my dog…crawl over my dog, lean on my dog… lie on my dog, straddle my dog… and he would sit there or lie there until he was told to bite. 

I could go on and on. Do you have years of experience doing this?

A: Yes

How old are you? 

A: 36 I have been a full time police officer for 14 years. Each week I work directly with 42 different police K9 teams. The majority of what I do with most of them is aggression control, advanced obedience under distraction and tracking. I like to think I have a fairly decent résumé.

I don't need you to tell me how and when my dog should bite

I know you don’t… you can do whatever you like with your dogs and in reviewing what I wrote I don’t see anywhere where I tried doing that. My point is that there are police officers on this board who do this stuff every day… who’s dogs have bitten people for real. For you to blow off opinions of people who have actually been in these situations and scenarios is your prerogative if you choose.


----------



## Tanya Beka

Emilio, I think you have taken an intersting thread that could have taught people things (including you) and have turned it into an all-out war. Not constructive. You are missing out on valuable information. This is not an ego contest, it is a forum for learning. Hop off the high horse and join the conversation.


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## Emilio Rodriguez

Good post Matthew. Thanks for your candidness. It's obvious that there are differences between what I expect from my dog and what you expect from yours. BTW this is what I posted so it wasn't directed to you


Emilio Rodriguez said:


> I don't need your buddy to tell me how and when....


----------



## Emilio Rodriguez

Matthew Grubb said:


> Let me get straight what it is that PSD handlers do every day.
> 
> A: Put their dogs in “New area with no cues, strange decoy (suspect) not wearing any gear nor behaving the way a decoy (suspect) normally does." The situations we deal with are tense, uncertain, and rapidly evolving…. Especially in K9


I don't believe "no cues" to be the case. I think the moment your PSD goes in your car it's cued and is working from that moment on. This is not the mode in which a family or personal protection dog goes through his daily existence. A compound dog yes.

You could say, my dog relaxes completely when there's nothing going on. What about the dogs that don't and keep pacing in the back of the vehicle. Still the moment you take your dog out he's ready for action, more so with the presence of other cues. Like you driving faster, the tone of your voice changing in response to a call etc. Defensive protection dogs don't operate like that. Their situations develop much more quickly. They rely on their feelings to react and to be good at it they need discernment.


----------



## Tim Martens

Matthew Grubb said:


> I know you don’t… you can do whatever you like with your dogs and in reviewing what I wrote I don’t see anywhere where I tried doing that. My point is that there are police officers on this board who do this stuff every day… who’s dogs have bitten people for real. For you to blow off opinions of people who have actually been in these situations and scenarios is your prerogative if you choose.


at this point i wouldn't bother addressing this guy. it's pretty obvious that he feels threatened to admit that he could possibly learn anything from anybody. there are people here to learn and there are people who come here to preach. this guy is obviously the latter. unfortunately this is not limited to the PPD people. i know many police dog handlers and trainers that don't believe the sport world has anything to offer. 



Emilio Rodriguez said:


> I don't believe "no cues" to be the case. I think the moment your PSD goes in your car it's cued and is working from that moment on. This is not the mode in which a family or personal protection dog goes through his daily existence. A compound dog yes.
> 
> You could say, my dog relaxes completely when there's nothing going on. What about the dogs that don't and keep pacing in the back of the vehicle. Still the moment you take your dog out he's ready for action, more so with the presence of other cues. Like you driving faster, the tone of your voice changing in response to a call etc. Defensive protection dogs don't operate like that. Their situations develop much more quickly. They rely on their feelings to react and to be good at it they need discernment.


ok, i get what he's saying here and to a certain degree he is correct. most police dog bites do involve some sort of elaborate set up filled with visual, audible, and scent cues (the end of a search or track, and all of the ones he mentioned). however, a well trained police dog with the proper drives would not have any trouble with one of his "cue-less" scenarios (again, i hope he's not talking about the scenario in the video because it is filled with visual and audible cues). for us, the bitework is an extension of obedience. "you bite what i tell you when i tell you and you let go when i tell you" is the mindset whether it be the meniacal, screaming, threatening suspect, or the completely passive (possibly dead) suspect. so with this in mind, you can see that the surprise attack out of nowhere is not a problem for a dog who bites when told...


----------



## David Frost

I want to play this part.

Emilio asks:

Do you as a K9 handler own a dog?

Yes

Did you identify what the tasks are which the dog will be required to perform?

Yes, and draw up the objectives, teaching steps and instruct.

Did you research and explore which breeds will best perform those tasks?

Yes. More to the point, the dog that will perform the task irrespective of breed.

Did you select the individual dog?

Yes.

Did you pay for the dog?

The State signs the check, but not until I've approved a particular dog.

Did you assume responsibility for the dog's vaccination, parasite control and other protocols?

Yes, under scrutiny from defense lawyers, Humane societies and PETA and every other nut that thinks dogs shouldn't have to work for a living

Did you raise, socialize and do all the foundation training with the dog?

No, I don't buy puppies. We buy dogs that meet our qualifications and are ready for training.

Throughout this time did take pains to help the dog fit within the structure of your family unit which includes small children, other pets, visitors, neighbors etc.?

Not a major concern. If it works out that's great. If not, it's a working dog.

Did you think out a training program catered to that particular dog and procure decoys that are capable of following your training program?

I dont' change the program to fit the dog. Training techniques themselves will certainly vary, but standards are standards and the dog must meet the standards.

Leave the dog alone at your home expecting it to protect your home against intrusion?

Some will, some won't. It's not our objective

When you leave the dog with your wife and child do you count on the dog to be safe around them but still provide security against intruders even though the wife and child are not capable of handling the dog the way you do?

Again, some will, some won't

When you're at your place of business and the dog is there for security, has to be neutral to all comers, yet when threat presents itself and you're staring down the barrel of a gun with your mouth open in surprise, will your dog neutralize the threat without you having said "packen"?

The dog is trained to attack on command, or when the handler is attacked. Anything else is less than the required standard.

Are you personally liable if the dog bites someone as part of a "justifiable" situation?

It's possible. The court will determine if it's a "justifiable" situation. It's not an uncommon occurance to be sued. it's not a matter of "if", it's a matter of when and how often.

I could go on and on. Do you have years of experience doing this? How old are you? 

I'm 62, my first dog school was in Hindenburg Kasern, Germany in 1966. I've attended numerous schools since then. I've trained Sentry, patrol, drug, explosives, mine, tunnel/trip wire and booby trap dogs. I've trained dogs in areas that are still classified and I'm unable to discuss. I've never said I was the best trainer in the world, but I do consider myself a pretty fair, dirtball dog trainer. I could go on and on too, but won't. 

DFrost


----------



## Jerry Lyda

There is no teaching better than experience. 

To all, all PPD trainers aren't the same please be aware of this.


----------



## Mike Di Rago

Emillio,
I am a retired police k-9 handler with 10 years handling 2 different dogs. I started getting involve with dogs in 1980 as a helper for a security firm. I was doing this on my own time. I have also had 2 GSD of my own( other than the force's).
I came to this forum to learn and share with people with common interest.
The thing about internet is that anyone can say anything and be an expert at anything.
If your objective is to show what you do to share, good. If it is to put down things you know nothing about, then I don't think you are doing anything constructive.
''sometimes it's better to keep quiet and pass for an idiot rather than speaking and proving it''
Mike


----------



## David Frost

Jerry Lyda said:


> There is no teaching better than experience.
> 
> To all, all PPD trainers aren't the same please be aware of this.


I've met a couple of PPD trainers that are current posters on this board. What I've seen of their training and the product the training produces, isn't all that much different than PSD work. So yes, I'd have to agree, and even include, not all PSD trainers are the same either. In fact, a lot of them aren't nearly as good looking as I am.

DFrost


----------



## Emilio Rodriguez

Mike Di Rago said:


> The thing about internet is that anyone can say anything and be an expert at anything.


The thing about the internet is this. I'm confident in the things I know and not worried about being able to discern BS from truth from others. I don't need to rely on a person's resume to accept or reject what they say because I have no other way of gauging it. Much like buying a titled SCH dog as a protection dog because someone may not know any better. Instead I have my experience, common sense and the ability to understand a dog on an intrinsic level. All I need is a few key phrases to know me and another dog enthusiast are on the same level. I fully expect others to perceive me the same way. Do I come across as trying to be an expert to you?


----------



## Emilio Rodriguez

For those who are interested in what I'm talking about as far as a thinking discerning dog, there are parallels in this current thread http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f30/unrefined-prey-drive-10081/


----------



## Emilio Rodriguez

David Frost said:


> When you're at your place of business and the dog is there for security, has to be neutral to all comers, yet when threat presents itself and you're staring down the barrel of a gun with your mouth open in surprise, will your dog neutralize the threat without you having said "packen"?
> 
> 
> 
> The dog is trained to attack on command, or when the handler is attacked. Anything else is less than the required standard.
Click to expand...

I look at it as more than the required standard and the most difficult thing to achieve with a dog. Mostly dependant on the package the dog brings to the table in the first place.


Jerry Lyda said:


> To all, all PPD trainers aren't the same please be aware of this.


Jerry, WTF do you know about my training? This is just a test I posted of my friend's dog. Also I don't like your subtle innuendos. I don't like you and I'm not going to waste my time with you.


----------



## Tim Martens




----------



## David Frost

Emilio Rodriguez said:


> I look at it as more than the required standard and the most difficult thing to achieve with a dog. Mostly dependant on the package the dog brings to the table in the first place.
> 
> .


I don't understand what you mean by "more than the required standard" and mostly dependant on the package..... could you please elaborate.

DFrost


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: 
One thing I do know is that everyone I've met that owns a Rott has the ability to change reality to suit them and their dogs.

This is probably the greatest slam that I have ever seen posted here on the working dog forum as of late. : )

Brought Tim Martens back from the dead.


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## Steve Strom

Tim Martens said:


> just to give everyone a little insight into this guy...
> 
> reference was made to another forum. i decided to visit the recently formed protection dog forum. low and behold i had been banned (*mod edit). had that been the end of it there would be no big problem. however this (mod edit)_*decided to direct my browser to some gay male sight that then crashed my browser. *_
> 
> *mod edit*
> 
> if you don't want people to call you on the incredibly stupid sh!t you say, maybe you shouldn't say it...


Maybe that was just more "scenario training" with green decoys.


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## Jerry Lyda

Sorry little buddy if I touched a nerver. Nervey pooch aren't you. I have told you before that your method of training and mine aren't the same but I didn't put your method down, I just don't like it and I DON'T train that way. I have been around long enough to know your method of training And it looks like you get just as defensive as your dogs. You can blow your smoke somewhere else. It's people like you that makes it hard for legit trainers. You do have a lot of potential but by your attitude, you're not there yet. You were given two ears, use them more than one mouth.

Don't worry Emilio there's no misunderstanding here, only there where you sit. Grow up and listen. There's been a lot of good info given to you by others and given to you gladly. Don't go cutting the men that are on the street day in and day out doing their job protecting others. When you do that, you are getting on my bad side, you might as well be cutting my military. Men and women in uniform and men and women in blue, DON'T #^$^% with them.
Now go play.


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## Emilio Rodriguez

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> This is probably the greatest slam that I have ever seen posted here on the working dog forum as of late.


Didn't seem to affect my dog.


David Frost said:


> I don't understand what you mean by "more than the required standard" and mostly dependant on the package..... could you please elaborate.
> 
> DFrost


The drives a patrol dog must have to do the work are fairly easily identifiable by someone who knows what to look for. Past that it's traditional agitation and scenario training. Not taking anything away from PSD, they are courageous animals, but discernment is not something that you guys appear to be interested in. Discernment is what makes a protection dog great past the traditional work that will also be done.


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## Tim Martens

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote:
> One thing I do know is that everyone I've met that owns a Rott has the ability to change reality to suit them and their dogs.
> 
> This is probably the greatest slam that I have ever seen posted here on the working dog forum as of late. : )
> 
> Brought Tim Martens back from the dead.


how bout the part where i said, "usually people who downplay the importance of drive have a dog that possesses little of it"????? don't i get no propz fo dat?

naw. every once in a while we get one of these kooky PPD people (i know, not all of them are this way) who come on here and spout off about their great driveless, discerning dog. we had greg long, that dude in the phillipines, one or two others and now this fool. 

the thing about the PPD people is that PSD's work to a standard(s). i have department standards that i am ALWAYS held to and i have to have my dog certified annually by a POST (peace officers standards and training) evaluator. sport people have standards they are held to, if they don't meet them, they don't title. these PPD people are all out doing their own thing unchecked expect by the supposed "expert" trainers that train them. there is no oversight. no governing body. no minimum training time. 

to me, the lyda dogs represent the best of both worlds in the civilian dog population. they title their dogs on saturday and do realistic protection training on sunday. 

this guy posts a video then a 1000 word essay on why the dog's uninspired performance is just what he's looking for and how all PPD's should work this way. it wasn't a big deal initially. again, i kind of chalked it up to just another kooky PPD guy. when they crashed my browser with old man gay pr0n, it irritated me. then again, i guess it's my fault for visiting that crappy forum. i just wanted to see if he had infected that sight the way he's trying to infect this site...

edit: additionally...david, he did get one thing right. we (PSD) care nothing of discernment. i don't evaluate it, i don't test for it, and i don't train it. IMO that is best left up to the human half of the equation...


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: I honestly don't understand why any individual of normal or larger size needs a dog to protect them, of course some say it's to protect family members but in the same breath admit that the dog is only around kids and such under strict supervision, if you're already there, why do you need a dog to do this ?

OFF THE TOP ROPES !!!!!!!


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emilio Rodriguez 
Which sport requires muzzle attacks?

If you're training for sport then the whole thing is arbitrary. You don't have the concerns that I do.
And that concern would be maybe...do these shorts make me look fatter than my dog ??

Your dog wont fool anyone that's not under the influence of something.


Holy shit. LOL I don't drink anymore, but I would seriously consider cracking open a bottle of Jack with you. PLUS, you like ACD,s and that is the only dog I am gonna have when I get to old to do this shit anymore. Couldn't stop laughing.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

QUOTE: "usually people who downplay the importance of drive have a dog that possesses little of it"

I was laughing so hard my reading comprehension dropped to the tard level. #-o #-o 

This is some MAD funny shit. :-D 

The gay porn thing............Why the **** a grown man would have such a problem with others discussing training, I do not know. I enjoy playing the devils advocate, as if anyone didn't know, but it would never occur to me to take what someone said so personally.


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## Jerry Lyda

Thanks Tim.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

We need to have a working dog forum get together one of these years.

That Suttle kid has 4000 acres, and a lot of dogs to knock us around, so that location is my vote. How about we seriously put our collective heads together and get this shit done.

We could get some training done, talk shit about each others training methods, rent a boxing ring for the dumb****s that take it personally, and have a good time.


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## Tim Martens

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> We need to have a working dog forum get together one of these years.
> 
> That Suttle kid has 4000 acres, and a lot of dogs to knock us around, so that location is my vote. How about we seriously put our collective heads together and get this shit done.
> 
> We could get some training done, talk shit about each others training methods, rent a boxing ring for the dumb****s that take it personally, and have a good time.


change it to an mma cage and i'm there!


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## David Frost

Emilio Rodriguez said:


> Discernment is what makes a protection dog great past the traditional work that will also be done.



Now be so kind as to describe "Discernment" and how it relates to "past the traditional work........". You know how trainers are with terminology.

DFrost


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## leslie cassian

I'd go, just to see the fur fly... uh... I mean, to watch and learn. I know my dog is no man-stopper, so no ego to get in the way of a good time for me. Maybe even pick up a real dog when I'm there.


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## Jerry Lyda

I'd go. That would be so cool to meet you guys.


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## Connie Sutherland

Jerry Lyda said:


> I'd go. That would be so cool to meet you guys.



Heck, I'd go just for the


Jeff Oehlsen said:


> boxing ring for the dumb****s that take it personally ..... .


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## Emilio Rodriguez

David Frost said:


> Now be so kind as to describe "Discernment" and how it relates to "past the traditional work........". You know how trainers are with terminology.
> 
> DFrost


Discernment is what the dog in the video is demonstrating. It's a green dog that has yet to be developed but the "package" is there. I guess you missed it, it's in the first post and it's the point of this thread. What would you like to see that's worth posting about?


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## Connie Sutherland

Emilio Rodriguez said:


> .... it's in the first post and it's the point of this thread.


So it means the dog deciding on when aggression is needed?


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## Emilio Rodriguez

But it just so happens that due to possessing the right package and good handling and obedience training the dog makes the decision that's right for the owners situation. Some people may prefer a sharper dog, it depends on their circumstances. The dog in the vid can be developed in either direction.


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## David Frost

Emilio Rodriguez said:


> Discernment is what the dog in the video is demonstrating. It's a green dog that has yet to be developed but the "package" is there. I guess you missed it, it's in the first post and it's the point of this thread. What would you like to see that's worth posting about?


I didn't miss anything in the first post, it's why I asked for a description. I guess the video didn't do it for me. There were a lot of cues in the video. Like I said, terminology can sometimes be a bugger bear. No matter. Thanks anyway.

DFrost


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## Mike Scheiber

Tim Martens said:


>


Hell NO 
You got to be kidding we got a mofo like this to play with I want more video of the discriminating thinking Rottweiler am interested to see what sorts of decisions will me made in the next episode.


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## Chris McDonald

I want to see more video !!! not that I know what the hell im looking at but it don’t want this thread to end… this shit is great… it even worth my wife calling me a looooser because im in a chat room…..come on Elmo you got to have more!!! I know you’re kind fears nothing…. Post it man… post it…


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## todd pavlus

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> We need to have a working dog forum get together one of these years.
> 
> That Suttle kid has 4000 acres, and a lot of dogs to knock us around, so that location is my vote. How about we seriously put our collective heads together and get this shit done.
> 
> We could get some training done, talk shit about each others training methods, rent a boxing ring for the dumb****s that take it personally, and have a good time.


 Hell yeah. Camping, dogs, beer, and I believe Mike likes to shoot guns too. That sounds like a vacation. I think Mike would make out the best. Who knows how many dogs he would sell by the end of it all. I know I could use some training help.


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## Michelle Reusser

Oh super! Beer, guns, biting dogs, a boxing ring and ego's too big to fit under the Montana big sky. How many end up dead or dismembered before this things over? LOL I don't go to rock concerts for fear of stuff like this.


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## Mike Scheiber

Tim Martens said:


> change it to an mma cage and i'm there!


Careful what you wish for Tim. Emilio has made mention in another thread that he is also a MMA fighter so after the live bite challenge do you think you will have enough gas in the tank for the Octagon :-k


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Oh super! Beer, guns, biting dogs, a boxing ring and ego's too big to fit under the Montana big sky. How many end up dead or dismembered before this things over? LOL I don't go to rock concerts for fear of stuff like this.

When are dumb **** girls like you ever gonna understand ????

Why do guys have to fit into YOUR plan there, control freak ???

Death and dismemberment ?? I think you watch too much burmese tv.

Women are pretty much the reason for the decline of dogsports. All the control freak girls get into this shit, and the minute guys want to get together, you all know your world is gonna come apart. You cannot do this shit without us, and that simple fact makes you girls shithouse. You all start whining about ego and testosterone levels. Grow up, your "control" is an illusion at best. =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> 

I say we ban the women who own dogs and invite hot ones instead. LOL


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## Mike Scheiber

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Women are pretty much the reason for the decline of dogsports. All the control freak girls get into this shit, and the minute guys want to get together, you all know your world is gonna come apart. You cannot do this shit without us, and that simple fact makes you girls shithouse. You all start whining about ego and testosterone levels. Grow up, your "control" is an illusion at best. =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>
> 
> I say we ban the women who own dogs and invite hot ones instead. LOL


WTF cant let Emilio have all the haten :twisted: :lol:


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## Connie Sutherland

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> ...I think you watch too much burmese tv. ....




:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


Who doesn't?


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## Chris McDonald

I say we ban the women who own dogs and invite hot ones instead. LOL[/quote]

Hot dumb ones with boob jobs and there voice box removed


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## Tanya Beka

Chris McDonald said:


> Hot dumb ones with boob jobs and there voice box removed


Well, that wouldn't be me because I want to speak up and correct your grammar. 

It's "their" voice box. :-\"


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## Michelle Reusser

Oh I didn't realize it was a circle jerk, sorry Jeff. 

My ONLY plan would be to work my damn dog and to act responsible and respectfull on someone elses property. Kinda why I don't throw parties at my house, people get stupid and break shit, make a mess and then leave. [-X


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## Mike Schoonbrood

Emilio has been banned for the next 10 days for posting WDF content on outside forums. Nothing pisses me off more than that, and ordinarily I'd just jump right to a permanent ban and wait for the somewhat humorous appeal-email that generally follows when people get banned, but I thought it might be fun to get the opportunity to ban someone two or three separate times by giving them some rope to hang themselves with instead 

To anyone else that thinks it'd be a good idea to carry discussions off this forum to somewhere else where this forums members are unable to respond... you know what they say... "it's legal till someone catches you." Nice thing (and sometimes annoying thing) about the internet is that someone will always tattle on you because everyone turns into 5 year olds


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Oh I didn't realize it was a circle jerk, sorry Jeff. 

Once again, trying to control what you cannot. So if we don't want YOU around, it is so we can all get in a circle and jerk off. Because that is all that guys do really when there are no women around, we just sit and jerk off.

What was his name ?? 

And what is all this posting of WDF stuff about ??? Not that I link stuff, but if someone said something the best way I have seen it said, I have to leave it here ???

****it, lets purge a bunch of the non posters. I will start making a list.:twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:


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## Chris McDonald

Tanya Beka said:


> Well, that wouldn't be me because I want to speak up and correct your grammar.
> 
> It's "their" voice box. :-\"


I do butcher the English language on a regular basis!! That was great! But you still get my point..


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## Tim Martens

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> Emilio has been banned for the next 10 days for posting WDF content on outside forums. Nothing pisses me off more than that, and ordinarily I'd just jump right to a permanent ban and wait for the somewhat humorous appeal-email that generally follows when people get banned, but I thought it might be fun to get the opportunity to ban someone two or three separate times by giving them some rope to hang themselves with instead
> 
> To anyone else that thinks it'd be a good idea to carry discussions off this forum to somewhere else where this forums members are unable to respond... you know what they say... "it's legal till someone catches you." Nice thing (and sometimes annoying thing) about the internet is that someone will always tattle on you because everyone turns into 5 year olds


i don't think he's too concerned with coming back as he continues to quote posts from this board over there even after his ban...


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## Jeff Oehlsen

What board is this ?? Lets go thump him over there.


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## Tanya Beka

Chris McDonald said:


> I do butcher the English language on a regular basis!! That was great! But you still get my point..


Point taken.


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## Tim Martens

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> What board is this ?? Lets go thump him over there.


i don't recommend that unless you like gay, old man porn. 

quite frankly, i have no respect for that forum or anyone that chooses to participate in it after the BS they pulled...


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## jay lyda

Nor do I Tim. I did join that forum because I thought it might be interesting but have yet to post and now will not post. People like Emilio come a dime a dozen and are not worth the time to try to show them the light. I lost interest in this guy a while back. I know exactly what kind of trainer he is, if you can call him that, anyone can piss a dog off to get them to bite. [-( Doesn't take too much talent to do that. I would like to see a real decoy work his dogs in a real environmental setting, but you will not see a vid of this because any right minded decoy/ trainer knows better than to waste time on people like him. I say ban his ass for good, people like that do not need the luxury of nice forums with intelligent people like we have here.


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## Mike Scheiber

jay lyda said:


> I say ban his ass for good, people like that do not need the luxury of nice forums with intelligent people like we have here.


He didn't here/see a thing that was posted tunnel vision.
I think you guys take some of this stuff way to serious. Am I the only guy who cant walk past a car with a little barking dog in and not tap on the windows. I come here to play I ain't no big baller dog trainer spouting dog training gospel. 
There's a bazillion roads to Rome just so happens I'm on the rite one and I ain't telling.
Guys like Emilio are entertainment you guys got to have thicker skin than to let goofs like this mofo get ya aggravated. The gay porn thing is funnier than shit. 
Now I wait for the next goof to show up.


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## todd pavlus

Mike Scheiber said:


> He didn't here/see a thing that was posted tunnel vision.
> I think you guys take some of this stuff way to serious. Am I the only guy who cant walk past a car with a little barking dog in and not tap on the windows. I come here to play I ain't no big baller dog trainer spouting dog training gospel.
> There's a bazillion roads to Rome just so happens I'm on the rite one and I ain't telling.
> Guys like Emilio are entertainment you guys got to have thicker skin than to let goofs like this mofo get ya aggravated. The gay porn thing is funnier than shit.
> Now I wait for the next goof to show up.


Yeah and then you'll be put on their "ignore" list too. LOL:razz:. By the end of this thread he would have put all of us on the ignore list, and then he would have no one to argue with


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## Michelle Reusser

I didn't even know there was an ignore option. How do we use it, I'm sick of Jeff's shit! (jk)


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## Bob Scott

Not only does he steal posts from WDF but he also answers them as if we put them there. 
Seems a bit desparate for someone to talk to. Go figure!


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## Skip Morgart

Maybe there is a pond (puddle?) small enough somewhere for him to be the big fish.


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## Tim Martens

the thing that really cracks me up is these idiots got so butthurt that they think we hate ALL personal protection dogs and PPD training (and unfortunately it seems that Patrick Murray is carrying this torch). the fact of the matter is, some of us (i for one) just don't like HIS particular way he believes they should work and THIS particular POS dog. then to top it off, he feels fit to belittle PSD's and PSD trainers who have been doing this longer than this tool has been around. add it all up and what do you get? MORON...


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## todd pavlus

He wasn't here to learn or give logical advice, or too even joke around, he was here to preach is methods, and tell everybody else how shitty they're training is. So long douchebag.:mrgreen:


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## Emilio Rodriguez

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> Emilio has been banned for the next 10 days for posting WDF content on outside forums. Nothing pisses me off more than that, and ordinarily I'd just jump right to a permanent ban and wait for the somewhat humorous appeal-email that generally follows when people get banned, but I thought it might be fun to get the opportunity to ban someone two or three separate times by giving them some rope to hang themselves with instead
> 
> To anyone else that thinks it'd be a good idea to carry discussions off this forum to somewhere else where this forums members are unable to respond... you know what they say... "it's legal till someone catches you." Nice thing (and sometimes annoying thing) about the internet is that someone will always tattle on you because everyone turns into 5 year olds


Considering that you chose to make this a forum not accessible to non registered members I can understand your not liking the cross posting, a warning would've sufficed. The rest of what you wrote is self reveling crap but it's understandable because everyone turns into 5 year olds.. right.


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## Gerry Grimwood

Emilio Rodriguez said:


> The rest of what you wrote is self reveling crap but it's understandable because everyone turns into 5 year olds.. right.


I remember when I was 5, I used to stand on the front step and *sic* my dog on people passing by.


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