# Do decoys really ever get hurt? Any input?



## Joby Becker

Maggie has stated in another thread that *...decoys never really get hurt...
*

It is *VERY NAIVE* to say that decoys never really get hurt Maggie.

*THIS IS THE MOST NAIVE STATEMENT I HAVE HEARD IN MY LIFE*

It is an unwritten rule that if you do this type of work you most likely will get "hurt" often, and probably seriously injured at least once, probably more than once.

Maggie:

Most of the equipment I am currently use does not do much to stop the immense pressure of a hard biter, and dogs get through (puncture) more often than one would think. 

The hidden sleeve is a layer of 5 oz suede, maybe 5/16 inch of padding and a couple thin layers of bite surface, the entire thing is about 5/8 inch thick. Maybe...that is without any pressure squeezing it. 

Here is approximation of the thickness when sleeve is not compressed by a biting dog. 

l---------l 

If the dog does not penetrate the padding the compression alone pushes the sleeve down to about this thickness

l---l

when a hard biter is on the sleeve his teeth penetrate the padding and all you are left with is a layer of 5 oz. suede leather. about this thick.

l-l

If he bites REAL hard or gets a bite in a weak spot, his teeth SINK INTO YOUR FLESH.

The bitesuit I use most of the time is a layer of nylon, about 1/2 inch of padding and a couple layers of material for a bite surface. The suit is lightweight and is less than 3/4 inch thick without any compression. IF you squeeze it (one finger on the inside and one on the outside) you can easily feel your fingers moving and touching eachother. It compresses down to less than 3/8 inch in most places just by squeezing it with your fingers. 

A dogs jaws are very powerful and can apply a great deal of crushing pressure. 

This pressure is applied at the ends of pointy teeth...sometimes all the pressure is applied to the points of 4 canines making it much stronger, and sometimes only to 2 canines making it even stronger.

The suit goes a long way to protect you from serious injury if you know how to work in it, but dogs often do get through the suit and cause injuries. And even the puffiest suits do not get rid of the pressure of pinches or bites and punctures in weaker areas of the suit.

Most of the time you deal with the pressure only, assuming the dog doesn't "pinch" you with his front canines in the suit, when this happens with a hard biter, the level of pressure is great and the pain increases dramatically, leaving very little between your flesh and the dogs teeth, and sometimes they puncture the suit.

If he happens to pinch your armpit or bicep this is extremely painful. 

If he bites your hands, wrists, elbows, ankles or gets his teeth behind your kneecaps in the suit even without "pinching" a dog can break bones if it goes the wrong way, if they get a hold of you in any of these areas it hurts.

This does not take into account the accidents and mistakes that are made that can allow a dog to bite you unprotected on the hands, ankles, feet, neck, head or face which will happen if you work enough dogs, the equipment failures and handler errors that get you hurt on top of your own mistakes.

I almost forgot the pain and injuries that occur just from the impact of dogs slamming into you at 30 mph...

Working serious biting dogs is highly dangerous work, especially if you do suit work, or hidden equipment work.

Everyone gets hurt sooner or later. Even guys in the "puffy" suits and the big bite sleeves.

Some get out of the work after they do, 

others should get out of the work because their fear effects the quality of the work, 

and some can handle the pain and injuries and go on working dogs effectively.

Let a dog grab your kneecap in a suit and pull it away from your leg and tell me that it doesn't hurt, 

let a dog bite your hand when its tucked in the cuff and you will feel a pain that is hard to top. 

Tell me how it feels to be crawling away on the ground as a 100 lb dog is scraping his teeth on your skull trying to get a good bite on the back of your head or neck because of a handler mistake. It has happened to me.

A dog can easily bite through a shoe and fukk your feet up bad.

A dog can break your leg if he slams it the right way.

Certain dogs try to bypass the equipment, climb up under the suit jacket and try to chew out your stomach or back, or specifically target your crotch, which is surprisingly weak in a lot of suits. I know several guys that have gotten their junk pierced.

Many dogs when worked on a sleeve will try to get under the sleeve, or over it, with intentions to seriously mess you up.

Its kinda of funny sometimes when you realize that you DID NOT get bitten for real, because you were sure the dog got through because of the intense pain you are feeling, and you just know the stickyness on your skin is blood, even though it is just sweat.

I have scars all over from this "painless" work.

More than a few areas on my body are depressed from muscle damage or places where the body fat was lost out of an open wound, and the few mysterious black spots or darkened areas of the skin where I am assuming some sort of necrosis has occurred.

The unprotected leg bite (large caliber bullet sized hole the went all the way to the thigh bone), hand bite (2 inch long and 1 inch wide gash in the meaty part of the palm that controls your thumb), bicep bite (taken by a 100 lb hog catching bulldog when civil work went wrong due to handler error), foot bite (pitbull crunching on a cheap cleat) were the worst and most serious injuries. 

All of which had to heal open without sutures because of risk of infections.

The surprising thing to me is that the "real" bites were less painful that the bites occurring through equipment upon occurance, go figure. The pain isn't there immediately, it kinda creeps up a little later.

Followed by the 2 stomach bites and the one "love handle bite" from dogs getting up under the jacket.

The leg bites in scratch pants were the next worse, a couple from dogs that decided they didn't want to play "sleeve games" anymore.

followed by the dogs that "got through" the suit in weaker areas like the bicep and armpit, followed by the punctures in the various other areas, 

followed by the pressure burns, when the dog or moves his grip, or you move, and you get pinched up so bad that the skin actually gets furrowed through and removed by teeth that didn't even penetrate the suit entirely......!!! go figure.....

don't forget to add the "Painless" infections and swelling that occur, and the bad infections that cause tissue degradation which sometimes give you pain years later.

Oops forgot to add the split chin and lip and fractured rib suffered from the impacts of hard muzzle punches, 

a dog can hurt you bad even in a muzzle, you can get hurt pretty good just from a dogs nails.

*Here is a current list of the injuries that I am nursing in descending order of related pain as I am typing this.*

1. A bruised lump on my left forearm that a week ago was damn near the size of a banana from hidden sleeve work last weekend, but has gone down now so it mostly hurts on the bone now instead of the outer tissues.

2. Each thigh has a nice lumpy area of muscle damage. really hoping the cellulitus doesn't come back that really sucks...

3. A puncture (well 2, it was a pinch) in the back of my right leg just above the knee which is also lumpy.

4. Each tricep is swollen and lumpy, along with both biceps.

5. Right forearm is swollen and beat up in various places, down to the bones in the forearm.

Tell me if you think the facial expressions in the following 2 pics are just acting, or if you think they really hurt like hell.


















I am lucky to have a high pain tolerance, if you don't, you will not be taking bites for long.

I know a lot of guys that have way worse injuries than me.

I admit I have gotten hurt more than my fair share over the years than most, due to reckless work, mistakes, and the use of thinner equipment. But I do like to feel the dogs bite, and like the dog to be able to feel me, it adds more realism and makes the acting that much easier.

Anyone on here that takes bites has gotten hurt multiple times or will be getting hurt shortly in one way or another. 

Even if you work 100% safe and have a big puffy suit, you will get hurt if a serious hard biter gets to you in the wrong way or the wrong place.

Ask anyone that took some leg bites through scratch pants if it hurts.

Ask anyone who takes inside bites in a suit if it hurts (bicep, armpit, chest).

Ask any PSA, KNPV decoys if they get hurt. I've seen PSA guys with upper arms that were entirely black on the inside, I imagine the KNPV guys get jacked up worse, those suits are not very protective at all.

Ask any french ring decoy if they ever get hurt, especially the multiude of them that have gotten there knees blown out or their legs or ankles broken, ask them.

Then ask the PP agitators and Police and Military guys if they ever get hurt.

See what they say. GO ahead....ask them.

The statement you made tells me he have no clue about what goes on in the training of dogs that bite. 

Do me a favor and don't ask me anymore questions about bitework, I know I offered to debate but I changed my mind now after thinking about it.

*Anyone else ever get hurt training biting dogs or am I the only one?*


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## Joby Becker

addition.... the post was too long to include this

The joint injuries and overall body pains that occur from years of doing this crap, even if you are never bitten...

what is the quote that one guy has on here? 
chicks dig scars............

done babbling. just got pissed off...


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## Dana McMahan

Fairly accurate post. My poor decoy has some nasty scars from dogs biting through the suit or hidden sleeve work. 

On the sleeve decoys usually see more long-term injuries. I was just talking to a helper who did our USA Regionals and a bunch of other high level competitions and he has had shoulder surgery 3x. That constant action is bound to do damage over time. I hear a lot of decoys having knee problems as well. 

Anyone who thinks decoys don't get injured should get into a sleeve/suit. I've never done a suit because I don't want the bruising but I've gotten nasty bruises and punctured through sleeves, or bruised from the cuff bumping, etc. I eventually stopped doing decoy work because it was aggravating an existing back injury (rolled a truck home from training) ... my physical therapist I was working with could always tell when I had done helper work because it always affected the left side of my body. 

And none of this accounts for when a dog takes a dirty bite to the stomach or leg and goes through the scratch pants, goes for the hand, etc.


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## Joby Becker

*look at this poor kid*

Fairly accurate??? 
tell me this hand bite in the suit doesn't hurt.


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## Carlos Machado

Two weeks ago I got hit in the knee because the handler gave his not ready dog slack so i got my knee hit but better than an unprotected bite I finished working but later it got swollen and hurt enough I couldn't work even two weeks later it's still not 100%.


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## Joby Becker

Carlos Machado said:


> Two weeks ago I got hit in the knee because the handler gave his not ready dog slack so i got my knee hit but better than an unprotected bite I finished working but later it got swollen and hurt enough I couldn't work even two weeks later it's still not 100%.


good for you Carlos, you kept working.

I have never ended a session becuase of injuries, none were bad enough. Probably stupid but what the hell.
Have had to stop to duct tape some paper towels or plastic bags to contain the blood flow a couple of times. But got right back to working. 

The funniest thing that ever happened to me while working a dog was when that 100 lb AB hog dog had ahold of my bare bicep. 

I grabbed him by the collar and held him up, if he dropped he would have ripped off my bicep if not the whole arm LOL....

I was yelling at the handler, who took an extra step with his dog in a harness none the less, to get his dog off.

Pretty soon I was actually laughing while the dog still on my arm, the handler was freaking out and asked why I was laughing. 
He was a Philipino guy with dark skin...as HE went into shock I saw a distinct horizontal line dropping down his face as it turned white...his whole face turned white as a ghost, but it was funny how the whiteness went down horizontally across his face.
i said "dude you are whiter than me right now." HE got the dog off pretty quick after I snapped him out of it.

Dude freaked and tried to rush me to the hospital as I was taping a plastic bag around my arm. We worked a full session still after that. He thought I was insane, I just told him we have work to do here, I'll check that out later.


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## andreas broqvist

i have a semmi traning suit, even then after every traning i have lumps bruses and are pretty sore. i downt mind it that mutsh but it do hurt pretty mutsh. if you say it downt trye geting a good triceps ore back tight bite and you will shut upp.

last traning a dog got his paw inside the moth almost spliting my lipp on just a short curage test, hig jupm not as in ipo. if it had been full power i probobly had lost a toth.

a jung dog, only 8 mont almost took my hand, i did a escape and the dog went for the arm with no sleeve. i was lucky and it only gott my jacket on top of my hand.

so to say that this is not dangerus is just stupid.

look at the movies i posred with the muzzle work when the dog crakt my friends toth when it hit right in the face. 2 times on that compatition he gott hit hard in the face


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## Joby Becker

andreas broqvist said:


> i have a semmi traning suit, even then after every traning i have lumps bruses and are pretty sore. i downt mind it that mutsh but it do hurt pretty mutsh. if you say it downt trye geting a good triceps ore back tight bite and you will shut upp.
> 
> last traning a dog got his paw inside the moth almost spliting my lipp on just a short curage test, hig jupm not as in ipo. if it had been full power i probobly had lost a toth.
> 
> a jung dog, only 8 mont almost took my hand, i did a escape and the dog went for the arm with no sleeve. i was lucky and it only gott my jacket on top of my hand.
> 
> so to say that this is not dangerus is just stupid.
> 
> look at the movies i posred with the muzzle work when the dog crakt my friends toth when it hit right in the face. 2 times on that compatition he gott hit hard in the face


Muzzle is no joke. I have a friend that took a hit straight in his face, he lost 3 teeth. 

Both times I got hit in the face I almost got out of the way luckily...went down straight back and tried to scoot back, fighting all the way... screaming. The handlers both times called their dogs off...but I did not want them to call the dog off at that point, I did not give the "real bite" safety command..
The acting job was good enough for them to think I was seriously hurt, superficial wounds. Pain really is a good aid for acting like you are hurt, who knew????


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## Howard Gaines III

Like the song says, "Dog days just begun!"
Pain Joby is a sign of weakness...buck-up Buttercup! :twisted:


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## Chris Michalek

one guy in our club blew out his ACL a few years ago.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Orrrrrrrrrr, more than likely, you suck at this. I have not had that many injuries EVER, and I have been doing this a heck of a long time.

Might want to go and check out a decoy seminar and actually learn how to take a bite in the suit. Good God.

People buy a suit, now they are decoys. NOT.


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## Jerry Lyda

If you play with fire you WILL get burnt. 

With dogs it's not when or if, it's how bad.


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## Joby Becker

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Orrrrrrrrrr, more than likely, you suck at this. I have not had that many injuries EVER, and I have been doing this a heck of a long time.
> 
> Might want to go and check out a decoy seminar and actually learn how to take a bite in the suit. Good God.
> 
> People buy a suit, now they are decoys. NOT.


Probably right Jeff It is amazing that someone can use up a few bite suits and more than a few sleeves and still not know how to take a simple bite, I do suck...

I'm a masochist I guess, I just don't like to hide from the dog in the suit, and I don' like using suits that do not let me feel the quality of the bite, and I encourage them to find me in there too. Maybe not so good for me, but great for the dogs.

Back to the point of the post, have you with all your experience ever gotten any lumps bruises or injuries or any pain whatsoever while working dogs?

Not even a single lump from all those hidden sleeve bites you've been taking from heavy hard biters for forever, never gotten any pinching from the thousands of high inside bites you have taken in the suit? 

I'm sure if you have been taking multiple bites from multiple dogs several days a week for as long as you have, you have experienced more than a couple of the types of things listed, just as anyone else who works dogs regularly has.


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## Bill Whatley

It's not "if you'll get hurt, but when and how bad will it be?" Not including bruises and lumps.


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## Don Turnipseed

All this to impress the ladies with some scar tissue? 
I saw a thing about bite strenghth years ago. GSD's were rated at 800 to 850 lb. Rotties at about 2000 lbs, Bulldogs(don't remember what kind) at about 2200. I am guessing Mal's and DS are in the same neighborhood as the GSD's. Airedales were about 1750 lbs.This seem pretty accurate? Most of you that do decoy work have probably decoyed for most of the generic breeds mentioned


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## Bill Whatley

If I remember correctly (?), it was "Discovery Channel" that rated Mal's @ 200+ lbs. GSD's @ closer to 300-. Mastiffs @ 500. Crocodiles @ 2000lbs.


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## andreas broqvist

*Re: look at this poor kid*

jeff. yes i do suck at decoying in a suit. im new to it, it do hurt, but its fun and hopfully i vill get better with time.

rtg


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## andreas broqvist

*Re: look at this poor kid*

i think its funy when peopel realy feel like test like this is som kind of factsl they test one dog from a breed and then they know by a fact how hard this breed bites. if you train 10 dogs from one breed al dogs will probobly bite both a bitt difrent and with difrent power.

the power will even be difrent with the same dog depending on his state of mind


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## Howard Gaines III

Catch enough dogs, take a risk or two, mistakes in timing by the dog or decoy...go figure. Define hurt?


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## David Frost

In my younger days, I was a pretty darn good decoy. (he says modestly) While the bites were never serious as a decoy, the wear and tear on the body itself has been considerable. Knees and shoulders mostly. Arthritis in the joints is certainly part of aging, but the wear and tear also played a part. I think serious injury from being bitten does not happen all that often. The wear on the body, at some point, will become evident.

dFrost


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## Jerry Lyda

As David said, It catches up to you.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Well, I have no idea why you think it is so important that the dog "feel" you, as opposed to the dog is "looking" to feel you.

I have what looks like spider veins on my legs from the dogs that got me good. I have sore everything in the morning. I have no idea what you will be going through, as I just am not going to take that kind of damage for no reason. 

You need to figure out how to do this shit before you **** yourself up pretty good.


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## Howard Gaines III

Jeff you've never caught a dog and the injuries are from falling off a barstool in some Asian country!:^o
I feel the issues...from years of karate, wrestling, dogs, and just being well used. It does come back to get you and the choices are simple: quit, take it slower, suck it up, or don't B$tch.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Or he could just learn how to slip the dog.


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## Howard Gaines III

What you talking 'bout Willis? Not catch???


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## Harry Keely

I have to attend to agree, people must see alot of dogs and of differing breeds, backrounds, sport venues, police and so on and so forth. You must be able to attest to being able to read the body language of two dogs in between fight and prey mode. Before doing any sort of real type of decoy work otherwise you or the dog or both will end up seriously hurt.


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## Howard Gaines III

Harry Keely said:


> I have to attend to agree, people must see alot of dogs and of differing breeds, backrounds, sport venues, police and so on and so forth. You must be able to attest to being able to read the body language of two dogs in between fight and prey mode. Before doing any sort of real type of decoy work otherwise you or the dog or both will end up seriously hurt.


Harry today I worked a dog that I've worked for the past four years. Mistiming and good decoy mechanics caused me to spin onto my face, face down to the ground. *SKILL* told me to cover and go turtle. The dog got my leg, went to the head, bit the hand, and the handler got to him quickly. An inexperienced decoy would have just gotten up like some clod and be tagged in the face. Experience, not gaceful techniques...

This is what I'm saying, mishaps do and will always happen. Decoys who have some sense of their area and the activity keep from being injured in an ugly way.

Got the video but don't know how to post it...thank God!!!!


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## Drew Peirce

shit does indeed happen


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## Michelle Reusser

Drew Peirce said:


> shit does indeed happen


OK I just barfed in my mouth.


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## Anne Jones

OUCH! That had to hurt for sure. Sure glad that I'm on the leash end of the bitwork.


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## Harry Keely

Howard Gaines III said:


> Harry today I worked a dog that I've worked for the past four years. Mistiming and good decoy mechanics caused me to spin onto my face, face down to the ground. *SKILL* told me to cover and go turtle. The dog got my leg, went to the head, bit the hand, and the handler got to him quickly. An inexperienced decoy would have just gotten up like some clod and be tagged in the face. Experience, not gaceful techniques...
> 
> This is what I'm saying, mishaps do and will always happen. Decoys who have some sense of their area and the activity keep from being injured in an ugly way.
> 
> Got the video but don't know how to post it...thank God!!!!


Howard, thats what I'm was trying to say in a more polite way. You need common sense and hands on knowledge, because book worm shit and reading won't save your ass. Glad you walked away from it. To many people watch a video or read a book or watch in person and buy shit and think there a master LOL. Time comes with wisdom. Not a set of balls and a suit LOL.


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## Harry Keely

Drew Peirce said:


> shit does indeed happen


Who knows who this is. Its a pic thats been seen alot over time. I actually had a local guy say his dog that did this and called him on the spot full of shit. So was just wondring if anybody knew who this really belong to.


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## Bob Scott

From people I've talked to it sounds like joint injury (knees mostly) are at the top of the list for long term injury. 
I've done next to nothing at catching. Lots of yrs of running, Tae Kwon Do, kick boxing, more running, but mostly I just hurt cause I'm old! :-({|=:lol:


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## andreas broqvist

yes we can get hurt in many ways. i gott my tendens mest up in the foot becaus stupedly not tapping out on a foot look
but hey its al good fun, decoy, mma, lifting weights ooooh we must be trill seekers


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## Bob Scott

andreas broqvist said:


> yes we can get hurt in many ways. i gott my tendens mest up in the foot becaus stupedly not tapping out on a foot look
> but hey its al good fun, decoy, mma, lifting weights ooooh we must be trill seekers


You'll get smarter as you get older! :lol::wink:


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## andreas broqvist

I realy hope so  Preferle the mind gets sharper as the body getts weeker


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## shawn murace

David Frost said:


> In my younger days, I was a pretty darn good decoy. (he says modestly) While the bites were never serious as a decoy, the wear and tear on the body itself has been considerable. Knees and shoulders mostly. Arthritis in the joints is certainly part of aging, but the wear and tear also played a part. I think serious injury from being bitten does not happen all that often. The wear on the body, at some point, will become evident.
> 
> dFrost


This is my issue as well. My left shoulder is tweaked and I have to see the sports therapist doc for acupuncture every month or two cause my deltoid is shot. Knees are going too. Luckily I have good insurance and am able to get the ticker checked every year due to a scare a couple years back I had while working too many dogs that were back tied. Knock on wood, no serious bites though. The toll on the body has sucked though. I've never been in a suit (always a sleeve guy) so I can only imagine these guys who get bit everywhere.

Shawn


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## Jerry Lyda

Shawn come to the Working Dog Gathering in Augusta Ga. and we'll see to it you get some suit time. LOL Or just come hang with us.


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## Joby Becker

Wasn't whining LOL. lumps and bruises happen, but they do "hurt".

Just pisses me off when some people assume that taking bites is a safe and painless practice because the guy has equipment.

*The thing that should come out of this thread is awareness for anyone who decides they want to start to taking bites. *

*There are dogs out there that will try to eat you alive. 
You may not ever come across them, but they are out there.*

Even if you never encounter these types of dogs you will get hurt or injured at some point. Even if you are safe, slip every bite, take no chances, have very protective equipment, you will get hurt sometime, count on it. 

Dogs with fast hard entries do get through the suit occasionally, and every suit has its weak spots, usually in the worse places. Pinching is very common.

If you take multiple hidden sleeve bites from a group of dogs in a row, you most likely will get lumped up. You can't slip bites in a hidden sleeve.

If you put on a tactical suit and work some large hard biters you are relying on using your skills to spread the pressure or work against the grip, it is damn near impossible to "slip" the grip with a large dog in a hidden suit, and you will get lumped up no matter how fast and "good" you are. 

There is a HUGE difference between working a 60 lb malinois and a 90 lb GSD or Rottweiler in a hidden suit. Try it and you will find out what the difference is immediately.

You take enough muzzle hits and you will get a hard one in the wrong place sooner or later.

Most of the dogs I have worked over the years are of the bullbreed or molloser variety and most were trained to be dogs that seriously try to seriously mess you up, not win points. 

Many of of these types of dogs have lower prey and need to be worked defensively, and then balanced out. This is a much different picture than a dog that is looking to bite the sleeve the first time out, or looking to play tug with you. 

As stated I do not like dogs that are happy hanging on the suit, if they are to be dogs trained for more serious tasks. Just my opinion.

If I start working a dog that does this the first thing I usually teach him to "find" me in there, and react accordingly. Probably not the smartest thing to teach (in regards to easing the pains), but I like the results.

As far as grip pressure goes the "hardest" biting individual dog I've come accross is a 110+ lb Cane Corso.

The breeds with the hardest bites that I personally have encountered are Rottweilers, Cane Corso, Presa Canario, AB, APBT, Dino Dogs, and large well trained GSD's, in no specific order...

I am really enjoying learning about and doing more sport work, after working a bunch of these dogs, the 50-60 lb sporty herder is "fun" to be around.

*For Jeff.*

The more serious injuries that have happened to me were all in civil work. 2 handler errors, 1 equipment failure. 

The head hunting and the foot bite happened on sends with very serious dogs that took me down, and the handlers that were "scared for my safety" decided to "out" the dogs, when they were not in position to pick them up safely. They both had tendencies to be dirty, therefore making it very unsafe for me. The handlers panicked, I paid for it. 

I've learned over time to not make assumptions about handler common sense, even if they have been working their dog for years.

I've done a lot of stupid things in my life with dogs, and I admit it.

The dumbest thing I do these days is not taking the time to switch up the equipment for certain dogs, or "wrapping up" for every dog. 

You don't need the wraps for every dog, you don't need the guantlets for every dog, you don't need the heavy suit for every dog, and its a pain in the ass to stop and change up. It's a pain in the ass to work a bunch of dogs in equipment that is most likely not needed.

The equipment I normally work in is adequate for 95% of the dogs I work, and then there are the other 5%. Sometimes I just don't take the time to switch up the equipment for dogs I know bite hard, or new dogs that I don't know, and I pay the price, my fault. 

I am fairly sure that I am not the only one that makes this mistake. 

I imagine that anyone who works a new dog, or wants to assess how the grip is progressing in training, wants to feel what the bite is like, or at least I hope that they would. 

I imagine that most people on here that buy adult dogs want to "feel" the grip, that is if they actually work dogs. This is far less punishing if the dog is worked on a sleeve.

And yes I do slip bites, once the dog is looking for me, I am not totally stupid. Pinches still happen, part of the game.

Like I said I am eager to learn more about sport work and enjoying it. 

I will re-iterate it is MUCH more fun working smaller, sportier herders for points, than working large punishing dogs towards a manstopping goal.


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## Toran Scott

This is my inner bicep a week after the PSA Midwest Regional trial this past summer... and Jeff... this is what happens sometimes when you "slip the bite"... you can still get a heck of pinch... especially when the dog gets you in a weaker spot in the suit... in this case one got my inner chest (you can't see it in this pic... right on top of the upper ribs, hurt like heck and took a while to heal) and the other got me good right at the seam... it happens, it's part of decoying. I hate wearing gauntlets cus I like to be as free as possible but after these two bites I wore one the next day for the second trial. (sorry for the armpit shot...)

__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
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This is a buddy of mine at the PSA decoy cert last spring, he was wearing someone else's suit and he got munched on pretty good... partly the process of learning, mostly the process if catching dogs...









Toran


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## Clark Niemitalo

Well i would have to say the majority of my injuries are due to improper care of myself over the years football working dogs for 17 years ect ect..i have had two surgeries do to dog bites one was a nasty bouv in a ring suit and the other was my own dog giving him a bath..I have worked in a suit alot and sch style for years..I would say for those guys with big bruises and punctures use under gear..Hematomas can cause seriuous issues in you later in life so macho is stupid..Getting bit in the face is doing something you are not skilled enough to do or pushing the envelope of something you shouldn't..I would preach mechanics mechanics and saftey gear..

Clark Niemitalo


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## Jeff Oehlsen

All I saw was a 5000 word wah baby story. What do you want from me ?? Everyone gets pinched, sometimes pretty good. So what ?? What does this guy want, a medal ?? Recognition ??

If you are getting hurt as regularly as he says he is, then there is something wrong. 

Badly sized suits, improper techniques, dumb ass hidden sleeve shit, or even dumber, hidden suit shit......probably badly sized, look at the scratch pants he couldn't figure out didn't fit. 

I just don't want to hear about how much it hurts just because someone made mention that people don't get hurt. Double dumbass, and then the reaching out for some sort of............ whatever, give it a rest.

I know all kinds of clumsy people who work dogs. Doesn't mean I should go along with their lack of agility, or skill, or let them get away with wah wahing about getting hurt all the time, not that any of THEM do.

Esko punched me in the nuts friday morning. Should I post that to get some sympathy ?? Recognition ?? Hero status ??

I forgot to wear a cup once. Got my junk grabbed, and when I took off the suit, the front of my shorts was soaked in blood. Did you really want to hear that ??

My buddy got his knee taken out, another Mondio decoy got his leg broken, just about two weeks ago, another Mondio decoy recently certified, got his knee taken out.

This shit happens. Either suck it up, or quit. God knows you don't need to post a ****ing small book about it so that insurance companies can drop us, or jack up the price even more. Or discourage new decoys from trying, not realizing you are probably just brand new at this, and have no formal training, and are probably just not very athletic. Multitude of reasons not to hear this shit.


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## Toran Scott

Clark, was the Bouv. through the suit? Or did he get you somewhere else... I have gotten a nasty pinch/scratch in my old Gallais top (paper thin before I put covers on the arms) but nothing that ever needed stitches (which is what I assume you were talking about...) Just curious where the dog got you that he could do that. We had a cop up here at Nino's that had a nasty Bouv but only a year and half old, very civil, very big. He never got me bad but I thought he might (big head, deep grip). Catch you later.
Toran


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## Tim Bartlett

Sometimes Jeff, you are freaking hilarious :smile:


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## Joby Becker

Toran Scott said:


> This is my inner bicep a week after the PSA Midwest Regional trial this past summer... and Jeff... this is what happens sometimes when you "slip the bite"... you can still get a heck of pinch... especially when the dog gets you in a weaker spot in the suit... in this case one got my inner chest (you can't see it in this pic... right on top of the upper ribs, hurt like heck and took a while to heal) and the other got me good right at the seam... it happens, it's part of decoying. I hate wearing gauntlets cus I like to be as free as possible but after these two bites I wore one the next day for the second trial. (sorry for the armpit shot...)
> 
> This is a buddy of mine at the PSA decoy cert last spring, he was wearing someone else's suit and he got munched on pretty good... partly the process of learning, mostly the process if catching dogs...
> 
> Toran


I give you PSA guys props, the *high inside* sport presentations are the worst for this. Doesn't matter how "good" you are or how "fast" you are.

Has anyone made a good PSA suit yet? Or Neo gaunlets that protect the armpit? Most suits are weak in this area and the regular old neos don't do anything for the armpit.


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## Toran Scott

Jeff, I don't know Joby (maybe met him once in Chicago) and I don't know how he trains but I think his point was valid and after a couple pages of posts you validated it yourself. Decoy's get beat up and can get seriously injured or hurt for a number of reasons. Sometimes due to handler error, sometimes due to faulty equipment, and sometimes due to not wearing a cup... when you post things like this you not only alienate the person by acting like a bully you take away your ability to help and influence. I am quite confident that you have a lot to offer those on this board, even newbies and good trainers but you undercut your ability to do it and ruin the free flow of good/helpful exchange. I know you can be funny without being demeaning, I've seen you do it on here.
Toran



Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Orrrrrrrrrr, more than likely, you suck at this. I have not had that many injuries EVER, and I have been doing this a heck of a long time.
> 
> Might want to go and check out a decoy seminar and actually learn how to take a bite in the suit. Good God.
> 
> People buy a suit, now they are decoys. NOT.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Sometimes Jeff, you are freaking hilarious

Seriously, did it ever occur to you to write a small book on how stupid it is to get hurt ??

You have almost no time to react to begin with, but good God.

How much of the book did you read ??


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## Joby Becker

Points taken Jeff. Thanks for clobbering me, I'll shut up now.


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## Toran Scott

Hi Joby, yes it was pinching and there isn't any gauntlet that I've run into that can effectively protect that part of the body and still allow good movement. I used to get those on occasion in the legs as well when I worked with a FR club here in GR. They hurt a lot worse in the "tender" areas where the skin is not as taught around bone (inner thigh, inner arm). I was talking with a buddy down in Cincy who is looking into trying to design gauntlets for PSA style bites... I hope we can come up with something someday.
Toran


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: when you post things like this you not only alienate the person by acting like a bully you take away your ability to help and influence.

What are you, a preacher ?? When someone PAYS me, then they can get a nicer version of your a dumbass, but for free ?? THis guy charges money. I am pretty sure of it. 

Gotta remember there are some people on here that could give out some real good advice for free, but they are not. They don't even post. Beggars cannot be choosers.

I sooooo doubt that most people on here do much of **** all with their dogs as they seem pretty sensitive about what is said here. I can only IMAGINE their little quivery lips as they are about to break down before a trial.


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## Joby Becker

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: when you post things like this you not only alienate the person by acting like a bully you take away your ability to help and influence.
> 
> What are you, a preacher ?? When someone PAYS me, then they can get a nicer version of your a dumbass, but for free ?? THis guy charges money. I am pretty sure of it.
> 
> Gotta remember there are some people on here that could give out some real good advice for free, but they are not. They don't even post. Beggars cannot be choosers.
> 
> I sooooo doubt that most people on here do much of **** all with their dogs as they seem pretty sensitive about what is said here. I can only IMAGINE their little quivery lips as they are about to break down before a trial.


I don't mind Jeff, in fact I appreciate the bluntness. I even edited a post down to a couple sentences. Gonna go play with the dog now.


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## todd pavlus

These are good gaunlets. http://www.dogsportholland.nl/website/mainpages/view01.php?id=10116&prodnav=&lang=eng they are double padded in the tricep and forearm. They do restrict your movement a little, but are great for hard biting dogs. I do not think you can find these in the states, but I can make them for a decent price. We use these where I train except mine are black with yellow stiching. You can PM me if your interested


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## will fernandez

Horse wraps work pretty well--they are like xtra large ace bandages and fit nicely under just about any suit and really help with the pinching-set of four costs like 20 bucks


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## Toran Scott

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: when you post things like this you not only alienate the person by acting like a bully you take away your ability to help and influence.
> 
> What are you, a preacher ?? When someone PAYS me, then they can get a nicer version of your a dumbass, but for free ?? THis guy charges money. I am pretty sure of it.
> 
> Gotta remember there are some people on here that could give out some real good advice for free, but they are not. They don't even post. Beggars cannot be choosers.
> 
> I sooooo doubt that most people on here do much of **** all with their dogs as they seem pretty sensitive about what is said here. I can only IMAGINE their little quivery lips as they are about to break down before a trial.


Was it that obvious that I'm a preacher... I hope so... and your response was actually kinder than expected, barely, but it was O ... which leads me to believe that with a little discipline you could actually become nice and helpful... 
Seriously though Jeff, I do get tired of seeing you bully people with your comments. It's obvious you have a lot to contribute, I appreciate that. Regardless of how good I get or how much I know or how long I have trained I will always be desirous of learning new ideas and techniques. I need older guys like you (and younger even) to give me different insights into training. That is the idea behind a working dog "community". Not everyone knows everything which is why we need each other. You didn't get to where you are on your own (no one does) so being willing to share and educate others is part of the responsibility of being a part of the community... and so is doing it in a respectful way. People are more important than training or trialing or dogs or whatever. I know that half the time you are being tongue in cheek and sometimes you make me laugh pretty hard. I think its possible to be respectful while still maintaining some of your sarcasm and most of your humor, especially considering that most of the time you have some really valid things to add to the discussion. Just my thoughts Jeff...
Toran


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## Toran Scott

Todd, I couldn't get your link to work, do you mind reposting it...
thanks,
Toran


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## todd pavlus

it worked for me, but here it is again
http://www.dogsportholland.nl/website/mainpages/view01.php?id=10116&prodnav=&lang=eng


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## Clark Niemitalo

Toran it was a bouv in Holland I was in KNPV trial suit..He got me in the thigh threw the leather.on a reattack..I have worked dogs using horse wraps and also used soccer shin gaurds the new style not plastic cheap ones..


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Seriously though Jeff, I do get tired of seeing you bully people with your comments.

Ok, but what do I care ?? You don't get it do you ? I trained with people that if you got all fluffy like this, would never ever tell you shit. You could train with them the rest of your life and they would never tell you shit.

I paid one way or the other for my knowledge, and never had the balls to tell someone "how" to tell me what I wanted to know, and that is why you can go **** yourself. Maybe you can understand that you don't change me.


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## Toran Scott

Sorry you feel that way Jeff, I was hoping for something different.


Clark, that would really hurt... through the leather, ouch... was it a couple of punctures or did he get in and rip a little meat open? I know a couple guys out West that do Mondio that use 2 shin guards per leg one on the front and one on the back of the lower legs. I rarely work with leg dogs anymore, it's my biceps that get beat up more often now. 
Catch you later,
Toran


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## Toran Scott

Todd, just saw the gauntlet, it looks nice, the extra padding is interesting, curious what it feels like. I would love to see someone come up with a gauntlet that was cut to fit the upper bicep and forearm but still allowed for flexibility in the elbow. That is my problem with neo gauntlets is I feel like I've been doing bicep curls all day after working in one for a while. Thanks for reposting it, for some reason the link wouldn't work for me earlier but I'm sure it was just my computer.
Toran


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## todd pavlus

Even though they are double padded in the tricep and forearm, the elbow is single layer, so you don't lose the flexability.


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## Clark Niemitalo

Toran he punctured me bad and seperated part of my quad from the bone..You can use shin guards on your bicep aswell..


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## Toran Scott

Dude... not an injury i'd ever like to experience... and certainly not when I'm overseas, regadless of the country...
Toran


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## Greg Whelehan

I had a pair of the gauntlets Todd is talking about brought over with my friends father from Holland and they work great. Of course the euro is up and price of them from "Dog Sport Holland" are crazy high but worth it. You can still flex your elbow in them no problem. I know Todd made his for half the price and they are identical but for color as the ones I bought from Holland.

I used a pair at Mike Suttles kennel when Gerban was up for his KNPV seminar and they had a lot of use on them and still held up good and protected me from hard biting dogs.


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## Ben Thompson

Well this guy got bit in the nuts by a doberman not exactly fun. Its interesting to note the handler is a woman. 


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYBYC1DSCAs


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## Clark Niemitalo

It has nothing to do with a women handler at all!!!The idiot has the jacket on but no pants he is a moron..


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## Joby Becker

Ben Thompson said:


> Well this guy got bit in the nuts by a doberman not exactly fun. Its interesting to note the handler is a woman.
> 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYBYC1DSCAs


That was a "love bite" lol. 

Not sure what to say about this one, But I don't place the blame on the handler. The guy saw the handler's lackadaisical posture, and the dog was on a harness too. 
That being said, this dog was pretty slow to strike, and it looks like the guy wasn't even watching the dog. Luckily it looks like he wasn't even bit. Apparently this guy didn't have respect for this dog and wasn't even thinking this was a possibility.


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## Timothy Stacy

Did we forget about this one. http://shkola-orlova.ru/view/55525f3e6598296f26635a45ff8925b0.xhtml
Another puller too!


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## Ben Thompson

Timothy Stacy said:


> Did we forget about this one. http://shkola-orlova.ru/view/55525f3e6598296f26635a45ff8925b0.xhtml
> Another puller too!


 The dog went for the hand that was striking him to bad it was a bare arm. Ouch!


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## Mike Scheiber

Clark Niemitalo said:


> It has nothing to do with a women handler at all!!!The idiot has the jacket on but no pants he is a moron..


You beat me to it Or nature making sure dummy like this don't have kids


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## Dan Long

Ben Thompson said:


> The dog went for the hand that was striking him to bad it was a bare arm. Ouch!


I'd say good boy on that one!


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## Wawashkashi Tashi

Clark Niemitalo said:


> Toran it was a bouv in Holland I was in KNPV trial suit..He got me in the thigh threw the leather.on a reattack..I have worked dogs using horse wraps and also used soccer shin gaurds the new style not plastic cheap ones..


I know it's highly unlikely, but do you know that Bouv's name? -I'm curious b/c a male Bouv Bill imported (Kai v Zuudloar) broke the decoy's leg on the bicycle attack during his KNPV cert. He was knowing for having the potential to cause terrible injury to folks... ;-)


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## Howard Gaines III

Yes I know this critter well. BIG, BAD, and ALL BOUVIER...got the granddaughter! :twisted:


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## Clark Niemitalo

No dont know his name..It was in 1996 when it happened..


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## Gillian Schuler

What about all the girls in another thread who found it fun to get a good bite? Taught them how to appreciate the decoy, my foot, those weren't bites, they were nibbles!!

David Frost mentioned something far more important - wear and tear on joints, back, etc. 

You can fix bites but not the above.

Most of the decoys I know, start giving up in their mid 40's if they've been very active.

The only decoy I experienced that was (or is) still decoying at over 50 is the German breeder, Elmar Mannes, and to quote him when asked how he managed it he said "I let the dogs work".

Horst Toporek and Fifi Lüneberg, two Germans, are still active and no spring chickens.


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## Howard Gaines III

Gillian Schuler said:


> What about all the girls in another thread who found it fun to get a good bite? Taught them how to appreciate the decoy, my foot, those weren't bites, they were nibbles!!
> 
> David Frost mentioned something far more important - wear and tear on joints, back, etc.
> 
> You can fix bites but not the above.
> 
> Most of the decoys I know, start giving up in their mid 40's if they've been very active.
> 
> The only decoy I experienced that was (or is) still decoying at over 50 is the German breeder, Elmar Mannes, and to quote him when asked how he managed it he said "I let the dogs work".
> 
> Horst Toporek and Fifi Lüneberg, two Germans, are still active and no spring chickens.


 Gillian at 27, I have a long way to go!:^o


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## Toran Scott

Not sure how old Berhard Flinks is but he can still work a dog as good as anyone out there... must be all that German brautwerst...


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## Sue DiCero

Age wise: 

Gabor is 56 and is still working dogs (decoy) multiple times a week. Dogs working to go to Nationals and World level events.


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## Joby Becker

what some knpv training vids on youtube. Some of those guys look over 60!!

I'm 38 and my knees and hip are not all that happy these days...LOL

Joby


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## Selena van Leeuwen

injuries of Dick: knee (no cruciate ligament anymore), several big scars (hands, neck, back) due to clumsy handlers when he just started as decoy and missed some experience in how to handle the situation safly and of course had several bruises and bumps.


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## Howard Gaines III

Joby Becker said:


> what some knpv training vids on youtube. Some of those guys look over 60!!
> 
> I'm 38 and my knees and hip are not all that happy these days...LOL
> 
> Joby


 Joby who are you kidding? Try 18! [-X


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## Joby Becker

Howard Gaines III said:


> Joby who are you kidding? Try 18! [-X


Nah..my girlfriend is 18 though howard...


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## Harry Keely

Joby Becker said:


> what some knpv training vids on youtube. Some of those guys look over 60!!
> 
> I'm 38 and my knees and hip are not all that happy these days...LOL
> 
> Joby


I'm 33 and fringing shot dude, both ankles are tired and shot, one of my knees is so-so, Lyme disease is a real bitch with joints especially when your lyme titer count is 3.5 times the normal titer. Have had to reaccurences in the last year. My wife tells me I'm a old ****, Lifes just great LOL. I can still take hits from dogs but its not at the top of my list to do, but will take them as need be now. Afterwards I feel like somebody hir me with a four by four, especially the next morning. Thats why its important to keep decoy camps and what not going to keep the generations to keep on come up and being great at it. I wished we had young 18-25 years old more interested in decoying and being open minded to doing it the correct way.


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## David Frost

The dog handlers on the Patrol call me: The FOG (F'in Old Guy)

DFrost


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## Aidelbert Tangcora

Ben Thompson said:


> Well this guy got bit in the nuts by a doberman not exactly fun. Its interesting to note the handler is a woman.
> 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYBYC1DSCAs


 
Ouch. Don't ever forget the cup.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Don't ever think that fat chicks are gonna have reflexes fast enough to keep the dog from doing that. That is what he shoulda learned. I think I saw her correct the dog about thirty seconds after the bite, and maybe.


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## Howard Gaines III

Harry I've got you beat by 20 years, maybe you should trade for an 18 year old? This way she could finish you off!!!


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## Mike D'Abruzzo

Chipped a tooth just this past weekend from a muzzle hit - but I'd rather that than the muzzle coming partially off which has happened to one of our other agitators.

Generally there is a bruise at all times on all the agitators inner arms. We use double neoprene gauntlets. Under a bite suit. One regular and an outer one that is a cut leg from a small wet suit.

Always looking for the best combination of safety and mobility/realism since we're mainly doing PPD.


and we use tons of safety precautions.. so i would say "yes" that decoys really do get hurt even on a smooth day.

also dont forget about strained backs, pulled muscles, etc...


can you hear the violins?:-({|=


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## Erik Berg

This was a close call

http://www.youtube.com/user/Creutz123#p/u/0/RcMZn9z_apM


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## Howard Gaines III

Something about handlers being a POST!


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## Mike Lauer

)#$% christ lady!
just back tie the dog she cant handle him


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## Howard Gaines III

Mike Lauer said:


> )#$% christ lady!
> just back tie the dog she cant handle him


 Mike if I faced that...we would have a QUICK coming to Jesus meeting. Accidents can and do happen, that was a handler error and the decoy should have used care when doing a pass-by on the unprotected side. Errors both ways.


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## morris lindesey

I witnessed a buddy of mine during training get 3 ribs cracked on his left side and his left knee injured really bad! He never worked dogs again and got completely out of dogs! Sad, he was a really good training partner.


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## Mike Lauer

i have seen handlers make a lot of little mistakes
hell I have made a lot of little mistakes this week alone
but that lady was practically chasing the decoy
I see that and my heart jumps in my chest
maybe they didnt explain the directions well enough


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## Dan Long

It looked like she was chasing him but I think the dog just took her where he wanted to go and she wasn't strong or quick enough to stop him.


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## Thomas Barriano

Dan Long said:


> It looked like she was chasing him but I think the dog just took her where he wanted to go and she wasn't strong or quick enough to stop him.


It was the decoys responsibility, he's the one going to get bit
and should take precautions. NOBODY is going to be able to hold that dog if he hits the end of a slack long line at full speed. Even then the decoy should have kept his sleeve side
between himself and the dog instead of turning his bare arm
towards the dog. I wonder if this was the first time this decoy
had ever worked with this team?


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## Edward Egan

Thomas Barriano said:


> It was the decoys responsibility, he's the one going to get bit
> and should take precautions. NOBODY is going to be able to hold that dog if he hits the end of a slack long line at full speed. Even then the decoy should have kept his sleeve side
> between himself and the dog instead of turning his bare arm
> towards the dog. I wonder if this was the first time this decoy
> had ever worked with this team?


 
Well said, that video is just FUBAR!


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## Erik Berg

I suppose he thought the dog wouldn´t drag the handler so far as she did, the decoy has a long background with policedogs so I´m sure he know what he is doing for the most part.


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## Howard Gaines III

I like many others who do decoying, sometimes we do the same decoying move. The issue remains one of handler error or like what was posted before, the dog pulled the owner. The number one reason decoys get hurt, IMO, handler movement. Being dumb or stoned could fit someplace but not here.
I have a crude statement...6" of movement will get you knocked up and bit!


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## Thomas Barriano

Howard Gaines III said:


> I like many others who do decoying, sometimes we do the same decoying move. The issue remains one of handler error or like what was posted before, the dog pulled the owner. The number one reason decoys get hurt, IMO, handler movement. Being dumb or stoned could fit someplace but not here.
> I have a crude statement...6" of movement will get you knocked up and bit!



Howard,

I see handler error AND decoy arrogance, sloppiness and too much of a macho attitude. When you're working a dog, it is STUPID to have ten feet of slack line for the dog to hit the end of. If you can't trust the handler, then back tie the damn dog. Don't belly ache if you get bit.


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## Mike Scheiber

Erik Berg said:


> This was a close call
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/user/Creutz123#p/u/0/RcMZn9z_apM


Not sure who is stupider


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## Howard Gaines III

Thomas Barriano said:


> Howard,
> 
> I see handler error AND decoy arrogance, sloppiness and too much of a macho attitude. When you're working a dog, it is STUPID to have ten feet of slack line for the dog to hit the end of. If you can't trust the handler, then back tie the damn dog. Don't belly ache if you get bit.


 I agree, unless you are certain of what you are doing.


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## Derek Milliken

A few reasons I'm back on this forum after being here (but not even watching it) for a few years.
Up until recently I used to work about 25-30 dogs a week. By anyones standards that's a few. I started decoying dogs about 12 years ago.
I've trained SchH dogs, working ring now, PPD dogs in the past, and I run one of the larger working security patrol dog units in canada.
A while back I was working a routine exercise, slipped as the dog bit me, who knew your ankle wasn't supposed to touch your shoulder blade?
As other's have said, it's not if, it's how bad and when.
Been on crutches for 2 months, and I'm hoping for no more than 6 months more.....


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## Hans Akerbakk

No it never hurts, massaging scar tissue is my other hobby.


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## Jerry Cudahy

Decoys are Immortal, Our nerve endings have been etched from our bodies. We feel no pain, in fact we feel Nothing.

Todays Decoy has evolved from ancient Gladiators. Everyone knows this factomuno.

Another FactoMundo

The Thread Topic ......


Frigin Dumb

That be my input.

jc


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## Lloyd Kasakoff

Some of the more interesting injuries I've witnessed in the last year...

Manly reserve cop decoy does a pivot as he gets hit in the leg, resulting in an ankle twist with an immediate bleeder compound fracture.

Same Mr. Trainer "I'm an expert, trust me" causes another long term extended injury to another decoy that puts him in crutches for weeks, with the same dog. I think that was a broken femur.

Same trainer brings "personal protection" "we're teaching him how to do ringsport" APBT into the field - dog doesn't target at all, pushes decoy back, bites decoy's shoe nearly off.

Same trainer brings another experienced decoy without warning him about this dog, pushes decoy back, and dog starts swimming up into bitesuit jacket searching for the stomach. Fortunately, dog didn't bite, but came close. 

My dog bit a great and competent decoy around the lower leg comfortably through a training suit, causing infection and other complications - didn't hear about it till weeks later. 

Very recently, a world class decoy got bitten in the wrist by an arm biting dog that managed to get to that wrist, and that was a bite with no protection. Accidents happen even to the best of them. 

I've never seen a decoy work a set without having bruises on their arms and legs, all while wearing extra padding and protection under training suits, regardless of maker. Compression injuries are not trivial.


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## Drew Peirce

We do it for the love of the dogs, at least thats what I tell the wife every week when I come home from training..........


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