# getting a dog to range out



## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Raven is a 2 yr old dutchie. Had her a few months, began her HRD training little over a month ago. She is doing real well, has the scent down pat, will sit as an alert, and loves the tennis ball. She is being very handler dependent right now. Outdoor searching she will range a little ways, when we take her down wind, she hits the odor, she will go as far as she has to, but only in odor. Indoors she circles me, looking for me to direct her. 
She was started on narc work from the officer I got her from. Is the issue the way she was started- leading down a wall or vehicle with the guy in front? 
I am building her up to moving off on her own, she is getting it some days doing good, other days coming back to me. If you throw a 'dead ball' (scented) out of her site she will search as far and as long as she needs to find it. Any ideas to improve her?


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I would work some directional training and keep increasing the distance. Secondly, I would work some point to point problem, increasing the distance of the target from the p to p line. 

DFrost


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

So set a hide, after she finds it, go back farther and work the same hide a few times? I did some work with the directionals and the spools. Once she figured I wanted her to jump on them she did awesome. She just won't go if there is not a target. She is not getting the back command though. She sees no reason to go out unless she thinks her ball is out there lol. 
She had zero obediance to begin with, picking that up nicely. Really surprised me on the agility course, we worked the planks and elevated stuff, climbed barrels etc. I have been working getting Greta to climb a ladder, and Raven watched her then walked right up the dang thing, carrying her ball of course.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

No ma'am. I don't use the same hide. Just make sure you are documenting your distance, the success you are having and increase that distance incrementally. Working a problem a second time can't be blind. I don't believe in training on known locations, except for specific problems. 

DFrost


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I am not sure I can really add anything to the suggestions as I have only had the opposite problem....

I have seen some dogs trained a lot on buckets and walls refuse to range out. How is the dog on offlead walks through the woods? 

How is she on finding small stuff? You don't want a cadaver dog to range as far as an air scent live dog. Maybe she could be developed into a detail dog?

I have just done that with my dogs raised from puppies to get them used to exploring a comfortable distance. Could she benefit from a little of just being a dog?


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

We aren't working blinds yet, she has only been doing the hides about two weeks.I make sure to know where the hides are at first, as she is just learning the sit alert so I am sure to instantly reward.

Her ranging off lead on walks is great. The detail dog is a good idea. I have been throwing the ball into a field out of sight, making her wait, and she will range fine. Same down a long hallway at the training building when the weather is bad. Only if the ball is thrown, if I fake the throw she knows the difference.

She may not make it for SAR. She is having an issue with aggressive dogs, and certain people approaching me. May switch her to narcotics if this doesn't work out.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> You don't want a cadaver dog to range as far as an air scent live dog.
> 
> Could she benefit from a little of just being a dog?


When I was working Jack (cadaver) depending on the terrain, I liked him to work no more than 25 yards or so. I "borrowed" a lot of technique from duck hunters and SAR on directionals. 

I really like your comments about just being a dog. In fact I wish I would have said that. ha ha.

David


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Well we train twice to three times a week, pretty short, and make it fun. She seems to be doing fine on going out with the pack, we run twice a day except the days I work. She is getting used to the other dogs, and playing she was kenneled before with really nothing done with her so it has been a huge change. She has had a few months to settle in, and another two on going out and socializing. Really has taken everything in stride.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Actually I trained Grim differently and am training Beau differently.

I did not worry one iota about the trained response until the hunt was down solid. I was buidling fluincy with the desired behavior separate from odor training and then brought them together.

Grim will definitaly range out further than I like but he does move with me and the older he gets the more efficient he has become at keeping a bit closer. Beau at 6 months is on the hunt and will get 25-30 yards or more from me while hunting now. All we are doing at this point is having one heck of a party when he gets to the source odor (which he likes to stay with and try to extricate)


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## Jim Delbridge (Jan 27, 2010)

Working dogs quickly develop an invisible leash, especially with a controlling handler. I suffered through training one dog team where I could tell by the dog's posture that it was on scent, but it would turn and look to the handler as to what to do next. While this sort of situation seems desirable, it can mean missing the scent source, live or remains. I finally got the handler to turn around on his attitude after his dog came running back to him with obvious posture change from a live find. As the handler had in his head where the victim was to be, he was blind to this. Several other team mates literally held me back kicking and screaming because they wanted to see how far the handler would take it. 
I truly believe that one of the keys into creating a confident scent canine partner is convincing the dog that the handler is a total utter scent moron. This leads to committment exercises where the handler may act like he/she disbelieves the dog (or ignores the alert) when the dog knows it has located the source. Ultimately, the dog does get rewarded for for the find of course.

My budding hard-headed two year old made me immensely proud on a blind where he wasn't sure where the source was and we were in a new environnment. He finally just downed as close as he could next to where he thought it was. Turns out he was off about 18 inches, but the point was he wouldn't leave it for anything. I wanted to explore it from a different direction and he just stuck to his guns. I recognized what was going on and said that I thought we were a bit off, but he was as close as he was going to get. The problem setter then showed me where it was.

If you've only had the dog a short time, you need to set up problems designed to draw him away from you because of scent. At first, you want to reward as quickly as possible on the right find. If you want to work it blind, have the problem setter tell you when to reward the dog so that you reinforce his confidence in working away from you.

I think the last time I checked on my working dog, his umbilical to me when it came to scent was over 100 yards. As long as I can read his posture, distance is not an issue. I'd give this a couple of months to build the dog's confidence that your umbilical isn't as tight as the last guy.

I had a lab once that was digging. I tied her up such that she could not quite get to the fence. After three weeks, I took off the cable. A week later, I had to physically push her past the barrier she had subconsciously developed. She would walk up to the end and stop because the cable was now in her head. I'd laid concrete blocks under the fence, so a cable was no longer needed.

hope this helps,

Jim


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Thank you for the ideas. Outside, downwind she hits the scent and will go pretty far. We have been doing some indoor hides at the armory and this is where she seems to be hanging close to me. She was started on narcotics, and some of the officers I have worked with keep the dogs close, pointing them along areas to search. I'll slow down, keep it fun, and take the advice to work on.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I think one of the things that makes a cadaver dog different than other detection dogs *is* the requirement that they work offlead away from the handler.

I like it when I absolutely don't exist while the dog is working odor and pretty much the dog only knows where I am when he is scanning for scent but not in odor [i.e., he will work the pattern with me...keep up with my location without verbal command and how a dog 100 yards ahead of you and not even looking at you (which is how far he may go out in an open field) knows when you turn is beyond my comprehension]

I do want to be able to see the dog working though -- if he leaves me when he hits scent at least I know why he left. 

I think that is where those regular off lead woods walks with the puppy do help...

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With the buidling and vehicle searches though I have started those dogs on lead and after much repetition with the pattern the dog can go out and do it without me......but I do think following your hand in those searches is also important but I would not be doing building and vehicles until I got area nailed. JMO. Area searching is the bulk of what our cadaver dogs are called to do. (The three most typical searches for us are water, scatter, and shallow graves)

And I also want to be able to detail an area and not have my dog indicate because I am sweeping the area with my hand.


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## Jim Delbridge (Jan 27, 2010)

Well, narcotics officers are the masters of the building search. If it's directed, the hardest thing for us civilians to do is to continue moving when we know the dog is near source. To slow or stop becomes a cue. To stop saying "check", "sniff", whatever becomes a cue. Once again, we have to be the clue less moron as to where the scent source is and give the dog an opportunity to get into scent and work it on its own. 

My biggest weakness is actually on-lead work, so I'm trying to do more of that. My working dog looks at me like I'm crowding him and I completely understand, but there are just times where on-lead is necessary. For me, that's about 10% of the time.


Jim


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Jim Delbridge said:


> Well, narcotics officers are the masters of the building search. If it's directed, the hardest thing for us civilians to do is to continue moving when we know the dog is near source. To slow or stop becomes a cue. To stop saying "check", "sniff", whatever becomes a cue. Once again, we have to be the clue less moron as to where the scent source is and give the dog an opportunity to get into scent and work it on its own.
> 
> 
> 
> Jim



Couldn't agree more. Which is why in any detection venue, once a dog has learned an odor, the ratio of blind v. known hides should be 99 to 1. It is the only way the handler can remain completely out of the picture. 

dFrost


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

So we worked in a park today both dogs worked perfectly! Raven went out quite a way, but I was careful to set the problems up and work her downwind where she caught the scent. Worked right up to the problem.
I only give the command once, then just walk the grid pattern, she never came back like.she was doing indoors. Also had some great distractions, people, a loose dog, horses, and a picnic going on. Greta is used to everything, but raven hasn't been around too much working yet. Proud of my girls today.


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