# Anyone here got a soft dog? Need help



## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Hey dudes and dudettes,

Have been having problems with Sali and after consulting with a few people, have come to the conclusion she is soft as shit, lol
Handler sensitive, corrections sensitive etc
Now I am quite a cack handed trainer as I am used to hard dogs.
I think I have been ****ing her up for the last 7 months and it has come to a head in bout of a-social behavior stemming from lack of confidence I think.

Advice's and flaming greatfully accepted as well as stories of hope and glory with your soft dog.


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## lannie dulin (Sep 4, 2012)

Matt Vandart said:


> Hey dudes and dudettes,
> 
> Have been having problems with Sali and after consulting with a few people, have come to the conclusion she is soft as shit, lol
> Handler sensitive, corrections sensitive etc
> ...


I think a lot of people have 1 (or few) ways of training a dog. When a dog doesn't fit in that program they say the dog is flawed and kick it to the curb. It seems you have quite an opportunity to expand your training program and see what you can get out of a "soft" dog. 

I think most would say my female is a soft dog, but I don't think that way. I think of her as people sensitive. She is sensitive to if I'm approve or disapprove and thus little correction is required on her. In fact if I where to correct too hard (which I have) she will shut down. However, she has good nerves in every other sense. She is good with people, and not scared of noises or physical props. She can walk through a store without issue. Her sensitivity is limited to her relationship with people. She doesn't want people she knows mad at her. (Strangers she doesn't care, she'd just bark at them if they yelled at her or something, otherwise she's friendly.)

I also had to take this into account in her bite work. After trying to put her on the sleeve with the decoy for a while I was ready to give up, but then a friend suggested trying her on the legs. She took to those really well. I think because she's not staring the decoy in the eye she feels more confident in the bite. As a result she bites extremely hard. The decoy often comments on how much pressure he can feel through a firm leg sleeve. 

Will she be a top level sport dog? No, but she's at least capable and maybe one day she can at least title at entry level of some bite related sport.


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## Paul Westall (Apr 27, 2012)

My mal is this sort of like this. She is "soft" and VERY sensitive to me. However, she is a demon in bitework-no fear and no hesitation. I have really had to change how I train with her. Very few corrections, very calm and low key when I do. Outside of work she is quite submissive and, I feel, overly friendly to anyone that will give her attention. Part of this may be me letting too many people pet her and interact when she was very young, as other littermates don't show this attitude towards people. Fortunately for me she is shaping up to be an excellent IPO dog, just have to really watch how I interact with her.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

how does the dog work on a decoy?


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Thanks for the answers.
I am looking at this as an opportunity as it goes, it's come as a bit of a shock tbh, ](*,)

Only play stuff with people outside her immediate circle so far Joby, not decoys, still looking for a good replacement, tug/wedge and she will hit a sleeve like she means it with anyone.
No defense stuff, she is 9 months old, just play and prey.
Anything to do with biting she is fine, it's out in the 'Real world' she goes soft, like when she's not 'in drive' if you get me.
Out walking and shit.
She is correction sensitive but not environmentally sensitive in any way really. 
She is and always has been pretty sharp and A-social, its corrections for wanting to nail people that has got me in this conundrum, I think it either is or has bust her confidence/nerve.
I just ploughed on training her like I train my dobes/EBT's totally oblivious


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

My #2 GSDs is horribly soft with me. WAY to sensitive to my voice inflections and body language. I think he's got a ton of ability but I openly admit that this type of dog is my biggest short coming in training. 
On a helper he could morph into a dark side that I didn't know he had but with me, pfffft! He's an overly sensitive frickin golden Retriever in disguise. He has a great recovery but it just sends me up a wall. To many yrs with drop kickem terriers and an older GSD that I read the training manual to and he goes out and does it.
I can only say be patient and stay calm in your training. One of those "do as I tell you" things. :lol: 
He's 6+ now and I've just started working with him more since my older dog has earned his retirement. OB w/markers only and fun stuff for us now. 
The only corrections I'll need for this dog is to just grunt with an evil voice. :lol: :wink:


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## Lisa Radcliffe (Jun 9, 2011)

Matt Vandart said:


> Thanks for the answers.
> I am looking at this as an opportunity as it goes, it's come as a bit of a shock tbh, ](*,)
> 
> Only play stuff with people outside her immediate circle so far Joby, not decoys, still looking for a good replacement, tug/wedge and she will hit a sleeve like she means it with anyone.
> ...


Could it be the equipment you use? I have had Dobermanns for 30 years and always used a pinch collar but my Mal would eat me up for a correction from one as I found out  she does better with a string collar and e-collar. She is not environmentally sensitive at all but reactive/handler sensitive only tried to nail someone once and I figured out my same old equipment would not be the best choice.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

cool thanks for the answers, I'll comment more later as its morning and no coffee or nicotine yet


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

disclaimer :
i hope you realize i'm not trying to dump water on your fire, Matt 
- and i'm looking forward to learning some new methods from this thread

but based on how you described some issues with her, i could list a whole bunch of reasons why i think the labels "hard" and "soft" are pretty much irrelevant in discussing dog behaviors, both good and bad, and dog training in general. 
... anyone else agree ??


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

rick smith said:


> disclaimer :
> i hope you realize i'm not trying to dump water on your fire, Matt
> - and i'm looking forward to learning some new methods from this thread
> 
> ...


Dude, feel free to hose away!


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

no way i'm gonna take your thread in another direction Matt 

just came to my mind since i hear the labels used a lot; on here and elsewhere

more interested to see if you can get some help with stuff you don't like with your dog no matter how hard or soft it is


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Start a new thread, wanna hear all about it


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

ok, Matt i REread my post and maybe it sounded like i had an agenda ... but it wasn't to hose down your thread 

forget the labels, get them out of your head completely, and work on specific problems ... directly and indirectly .. and my guess you will be happier with your dog and see some progress


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

ok here's some constructive criticism of the "sali mali mongo 3" clip

- you're out in public
- looks like you are trying to get her less reactive 
- you start out with her in a sit on a short tight lead
- but she is paying you VERY little attention but is obviously VERY interested in everything and every passerby
- you say her name repeatedly and she show ZERO response to you
she is out in front of you STATIONARY, which will make her even more dominant and reactive
- if you are setting her up to light up you won't have long to wait 
- you put her in a down and now she is even more tense...just watch those radar dishes tracking everything incoming 
- when she does light up she gets tensed up even more by the leash grab and hold ,,,,(i did not see it as a correction, but that is immaterial; just shows that any OB compliance is only momentary and having little or NO overall effect on her behavior and drive state)

my suggestions based on the first minute of the clip :
- at this point in her training, this dog has no business being stationary...she should be walking; movement will not allow her to scan as easily as when she is motionless. if she has a ball or a tug that she WILL focus on when walking her, USE it. if not, add that to your training syllabus. the walk MUST be interactive if you expect improvement in Desensitizing her reactivity
- the little you did to try and get her focus was for all intent ineffective so she needs a TON more training on watch commands, which can and should be practiced ... while walking her
- don't repeatedly say her name unless you want it to mean something because it means nothing to her when she is in this state and it DEFINITELY didn't calm her down

that is quick and dirty for starters ... NO water 
if you post the clip maybe others will see it differently and have different opinions and post them. if that happens i'll watch the whole thing and add some more of my own

good luck


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Lol I didn't think you had an agenda, I meant it hose away.

There are no corrections in that vid, yes she was set up, I wanted to catch the behaviour on vid.
Anyway corrections only bring the fire with Sali


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

ok, so it was just a set up...i'll accept that

where are you now and where is the "after" clip i can see that relates to how you set her up in that clip ? a little hard to go thru that many you tube vids to see one that will relate to the "set up" clip

but, btw, i did say what i thought was being done wrong and how i would go about it a different way...why no comments related to that part ??

.....as in, 
- is the watch command a trained response now or is it solid only in the back yard, etc ?
- does she now respond well to her name ?
- does she have more focus on you while being walked in public ?
............ etc 

- or are you primarily concerned with why she is becoming handler aggressive and fighting back when corrected ? 
- or is she just shutting down when you correct her because she is so soft ?
- my bet is she ISN'T shutting down //lol//

please set me straight either way


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

sorry, skimming not reading, my bad 
you already said corrections bring on the fire...
since she isn't a dragon could you put that in plain english and describe specifically what causes what

maybe the thread should be re-titled : why is my dog starting to come up the lead ? //lol//


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

- No
- No
- Sometimes depends on her level of stimulation at the time.

- She has always been a bit handler aggressive tbh depending on how stimulated she is, this is how I didn't notice she was 'soft' (she was worse actually)
Not overly concerned about this but rather how to correct her without bringing out her aggression, had handler aggressive dogs before but they were not so touch sensitive and were 'harder dogs' so handler aggression from correction was only a problem when unduly applied.
Had plenty of re-directs as well but these could obviously be nipped in the bud with solid correction (other dogs)

- depends on the level/method of correction. 

-Pretty ****ing obvious rick, she gets more aggressive, particularly with a prong correction, so that came off again pretty quick.

If you read my first post you will see this:



> I think I have been ****ing her up for the last 7 months and it has come to a head in bout of a-social behavior stemming from lack of confidence I think.


Lack of confidence due to my shitty handling of her. Don't think I have a particularly good connection with this dog atm.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

guess we're at an impasse
you didn't answer my questions

and i really can't get a visual image of what this means :
"I think I have been ****ing her up for the last 7 months and it has come to a head in bout of a-social behavior stemming from lack of confidence I think. Lack of confidence due to my shitty handling of her"

" Don't think I have a particularly good connection with this dog atm. "
probably spot on but i can't visualize that either without seeing the problems in action

are there any vids in that collection that show it ?
would help, but a lot has to do with the type of bond you have established and/or messed up and that isn't exactly something that can be shown in a video

sorry i didn't watch the whole compilation vid (16plus min) 
it starts out good
...but does it also show the slippery slope when the probs started getting worse ?

somewhere in the back of my mind i am imagining a dog that has gotten hard corrections for asshole behavior a lot more than corrections for not complying to trained responses, and that can certainly affect the "bond" thing
example ... and just another guess, but maybe her (A-social) aggression is redirected at you and maybe you have lowered that threshold to the point she won't give any more warning signals

one reason i say this is because in your own words, you didn't consider your handling actions in the public vid as corrections ... but i DID


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

They are restraints really not corrections.
Corrections for what exactly? She has not been asked to do anything particularly in any of them, she is just expressing her reactivity.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Ok Matt.... follow your thought awhile longer :
"They are restraints really not corrections.
Corrections for what exactly? She has not been asked to do anything particularly in any of them, she is just expressing her reactivity."

when you are handling her in bite work and "restraining her" on lead before you release her to get a grip, like you restrained her when she started to lunge at the shopping cart, what is happening in her head ?

when she's targeting the shopping cart, does she think you are giving her some opposition to build her drive which will get rewarded with a bite ? ....of course not //lol//
- and are you saying anything positive to further build the drive ? of course not...your tone of voice would be the same as when you give her a correction 
- she has NO clue in the world what "don't even think about it" means, so i assumed you also gave her a quick "watch", which she blew off, so you had no choice but to use the lead
...that's why i said it was a correction ... imo 
- what i saw i interpreted as you adding more drive and desire to get the cart without realizing that was happening...what you are calling restraining
- when you build enuff drive that way, i could see how she would release it in your direction, which you would then have to consider handler aggression, that would need even more of a correction, and when that gets conditioned, she will start turning on you quicker 
- iow, repeated "restraining" will add frustration and with many dogs, and build handler aggression. there are other ways, but that's one.
...does this make any sense ?

of course that was just one short vid and i haven't seen any others
maybe others will watch (if you post a link) and give some different views, advice and opinions

but as you also said, you are not that concerned with the problem so maybe i am beating a dead dog to death


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

dude I know exactly what the restraining is doing to her intentions of biting (the woman not the cart) 
But what's my other option?
Let her go? I don't think you are quite getting the picture here with 'tight lead' and stuff.

I will spell it out, if she is on a loose lead, she WILL nail the person.
Just to reiterate, she will move to the end of the lead and bite a member of the public.

You think I should do that?

My question is not what am I doing wrong, I am perfectly aware of that but rather what should I do right.

A bit of what the fuk is triggering this reaction would be good too but I am dealing with that through PM's to people I trust, here and on other sources.

The problem is her softeness and I can't use my normal methods of dealing with this a-social behaviour which would be simply a come to jesus moment and that would be the end of that.

As a side note: she knows exactly what 'don't even think about it' mean's actually, in a normal low stimulus situation. She is so up in whatever it is that's driving this behaviour, that she is going physically deaf to all other input, that's not me making it up it's a proven scientific fact that this happens in dogs, it's why they are so good at what they do.

Now can we get back on topic please.

Training 'soft dogs'


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## Ataro Muse (Dec 20, 2012)

You know, I think it's the wind blowing in a funny direction. Rick, did you notice that she points her ears in a certain way each time? The restraint sort of confuses her because she's getting blocked off by Matt's body and has to redirect.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Matt
since you just said she knows what that phrase means, that makes it MORE than one COMMAND you gave her, that she HEARD, and did NOT comply with, and you SAID you didn't ask her to do anything and therefore did not need to use corrections
/////FUZZY MATH, bad logic/////

two words : PISS POOR FOUNDATIONS (okay, three) and TOTAL lack of focus on handler 
-THAT is a problem that you damn well know you needed to work on, ESPECIALLY if she has some confidence or nerve issues
- and i think you also have the smarts to know how to train it but just haven't put the effort into it, because CTJ (quicker solutions) have worked with other dogs in the past and other methods take longer

i told you in a PM how people often use "soft" and hard" to clump a lot of things together...to the extent of denying what the underlying causes are and avoid dealing with them
- you enjoy the hell out of the bite work like anyone else, but haven't dealt with the issue that is pissing you off the most right now and blaming it on her being "soft" and asking how to train a "soft" dog...but now you have a dog that bites which makes her a freaking safety hazard
- and i was STARTING to try and help you recognize some of the simple basic stuff you could be doing better and look a bit deeper into why she does what you don't like

believe me, i GET IT but you don't, imo
- i HAVE worked with maybe a dozen low confidence, highly reactive dogs who not only WILL bite, but HAVE bitten

last but not least :
1. show me a vid of a very highly trained dog working with a very skillful handler totally off lead and you will see a dog who might appear "soft". only problem is, when you see it, you won't even be thinking soft or hard
2. then watch a vid of a dog like that black and white russian brute recently posted ... matter how hard its damn bite/grip is, that is what i would call a soft dog if i had to make a call one way or the other, which i would not do, cause i don't think it makes much difference and only bring these up as two examples of why i could care less about a softness/hardness scale for dogs

WTH, maybe your thread will eventually discuss whether "soft dogs" need to be trained differently than "hard dogs" ... if it does, i'll put my vote in now and say NOT AT ALL, and hell yes i know all dogs aren't created equal 

btw, if you are getting some good tips by PM from people you trust, please pass them on .... i'm sure you know how to protect their privacy //lol//

amen and good luck


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

> btw, if you are getting some good tips by PM from people you trust, please pass them on .... i'm sure you know how to protect their privacy //lol//
> 
> amen and good luck


Now this statement is just confusing.


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## Ataro Muse (Dec 20, 2012)

I want a toke of whatever he's smoking.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i asked to pass on the tips based on this :
"A bit of what the fuk is triggering this reaction would be good too but I am dealing with that through PM's to people I trust, here and on other sources."

based on that, it sounds like a few other people are offering advice but choose not to have others know who they are, so it's done thru PMs and other sources
- don't say the names just pass on good advice for others
- you are not the only one who has had to deal with this type of thing and i always assume lurkers are reading that want to learn but are too shy to speak up
- i always assume there are people other than the usual posters who read threads ,,,, actually, i kinda wish they would speak up more often

awhile back i asked some Q's about mals who had floppy ears.... i passed on everything i learned and respected the privacy of those who PM'd me 

clearer ??


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Matt Vandart said:


> Lol I didn't think you had an agenda, I meant it hose away.
> 
> There are no corrections in that vid, yes she was set up, I wanted to catch the behaviour on vid.
> Anyway corrections only bring the fire with Sali


link to video?


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

That is up to them dude.


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## David Winners (Apr 4, 2012)

Sorry, I haven't watched the video because of limited bandwidth. 

I would work on focus and ob outside the dog's threshold. Don't allow the dog to go into drive. Keep everything calm, and all about you. Mark anything good, and avoid the dog getting defensive and the subsequent corrections. Show the dog what is right, not just what is wrong.

Slowly decrease the distance to stimulus while keeping focus on you. Back off anytime you cross the threshold and the dog loses it. If the dog gets defensive, just remove it without commands or corrections. Back off to a point the dog calms down, focus returns to you, and start over. I would use a flat collar to avoid amping the dog up further.

JMHO

David Winners


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

David
your description of the basic system and sequence to use when de sensitizing and counter conditioning is accurate, and generic. that advice is frequently given when this type of issue has come up on this forum...which it has

my comments and suggestions were made based directly on the actions in the video clip, which the OP has said was made in order to describe the problem and not to address it. i have obviously "disagreed" with his analysis and made very specific reasons why i thought some of what he was doing was actually contributing to the problem, as well as pointing out that he WAS giving commands even tho he thought he wasn't, etc

u really need to see the clip to match up my words to it


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## David Winners (Apr 4, 2012)

Can you link to the video you are referring to? I'm interested enough to take the time to download it.

Thanks

David Winners


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i want to repeat something i said earlier cause i think it is helpful for almost ANY dog

for those who may choose to do this type of DS/CC, or need to start one, i have found that when you start putting the overall guidance that David provided into practice, when doing it in a public place, it really pays to start off by NOT ever placing the dog in a stationary spot, like in a sit or down.

starting with the dog MOVING really helps decrease reactivity, lessens the level of conflict and keeps the dog from just putting its head on a swivel and scanning for "incomings" 

fwiw, i have done this both ways with aggressive dogs ... but now, only AFTER it gets better while moving, will i park it. 
- meaning, i no longer stand off at a "safe" distance and let it watch things moving around and approach its bubble. that is a step that only comes after i see improvement when moving


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

rick smith said:


> David
> your description of the basic system and sequence to use when de sensitizing and counter conditioning is accurate, and generic. that advice is frequently given when this type of issue has come up on this forum...which it has
> 
> my comments and suggestions were made based directly on the actions in the video clip, which the OP has said was made in order to describe the problem and not to address it. *i have obviously "disagreed" with his analysis and made very specific reasons why i thought some of what he was doing was actually contributing to the problem, as well as pointing out that he WAS giving commands even tho he thought he wasn't, etc*
> ...


Dude I think some wires got crossed here, at no point have I disagreed that my actions were contributing to the problem, in fact I have said the opposite.

Instead of banging your drum, could you please answer my question about the 'tight lead' comment.

And tbh Rik I think it was a bit lame of you to bring up comments on a vid I had PM'd you, unlike everyone else that received the link. If I wanted public opinion in the vid at this time, I would have posted it. David I can send you the link on PM if you think you can add to the conversation going on separately about why this is happening rather than how to deal with soft dogs.

thanks


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## David Winners (Apr 4, 2012)

Matt Vandart said:


> Dude I think some wires got crossed here, at no point have I disagreed that my actions were contributing to the problem, in fact I have said the opposite.
> 
> Instead of banging your drum, could you please answer my question about the 'tight lead' comment.
> 
> ...


Sure. I'll take a look.

David Winners


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

personally I would not necessarily attribute a juvenile Malinois' public reactivity to "softness", or too hard of handling. 

have you ever taught the dog to bark at people purposely or inadvertantly? like an alert? or to watch or possibly be suspicious of people?


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## Guy Williams (Jun 26, 2012)

Matt,

I am currently running a dog that would be described as soft. Terminology is always an issue when talking about dogs but he is handler sensitive for sure. He was/is a very reactive dog and I can't help thinking that is partly why he is like he is. He is just sensitive to stimuli full stop and he reacts according to his experience of that particular stimuli.

By 9 months old I would have generally expected him to be environmentally sound as he was exposed systematically and carefully to everything. I live on a main road and traffic should have been no issue but even at that age he would still occassionally pay far too much attention to the cars whizzing by and if I couldn't avoid them (it used to catch me off guard) he would end up lunging or barking at them. It looked like he just found them too stimulating and couldn't contain himself. Then he wouldn't react again for weeks. He is 19 months now and is steady around traffic as any other dog although I get a sense it wouldn't take much to get him going!

He was like this with a lot of things. It just took longer, and more exposures to get him to where I wanted him to be. 

I don't know the exact issues you are experiencing but as a generalization I would say that if the dog is showing an aggressive response to something then it is because it percieves a threat and that is the dogs preferred or only way to deal with it. That includes the handler. It is not unlikely that a reactive dog may redirect back at the handler as a response to a physical correction because the correction is just one more stimulus to deal with and may be the straw that broke the camels back so to speak.

A programme of systematic desensitisation would be my preferred option to try and address the root cause. :-D

ps. The smiley face doesn't reflect my mood. I'm a miserable bastard.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Cool thanks Guy


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

I too, would like to see the video in question. How old is this dog? Sounds very similar to how my pup started off and it doesn't sound like you have a lot of experience with different characters or breeds of dogs. Rick's suggestion was spot on. I realized that walking my pup in the downtown area with a toy in his mouth and/or attached to my hand did two things. First while walking through a park or pet store where people are sprinkled about the pup gets the opportunity to single out and challenge and lunge and bark at whoever it chooses. When there's crowds of people they can't bark at or challenge all of them at once. Secondly, always moving and walking forward will keep pup occupied. The toy is just an added bonus. Sometimes I let him carry it. Sometimes I rewarded him at the end with it. Good luck.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Ok, thought I would update this thread, here is sali now, still a bit edgy or pissed off with being controlled or whatever it was we decided was in her head space but generally massive improvement.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1Nphm3PHow


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

if one of the things that gets her going is correction ... then there is where you start. Work through that in small steps like you would do any other training.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

rick smith said:


> disclaimer :
> i hope you realize i'm not trying to dump water on your fire, Matt
> - and i'm looking forward to learning some new methods from this thread
> 
> ...


 I do.

I think this issue of soft and hard is far more complex.

I had a Landseer as my first working dog. He was very territorial, very protective of me but very open with other people. Corrections in heeling or tracking would "shut him down".

Training dogs brings all the problems out into the open. The tough protection dog who can take hard corrections can "shut down" with the same corrections in tracking or even in obedience.

The Briard took all the corrections in protection and heeling but "shut down" in tracking. 

Tracking corrrections are very often harder for the dog.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

My older GSD is not soft but when I took him over at 8 weeks I noticed that he did not like females or children.

I took him up to the playground where kids were around - didn't help. I would never do it again.

I took him into our little town and was astounded how he related to large young men who had an interest in him. It dawned on me. This dog, to put a better word, was anxious* of all he had never encountered.*

At the breeders. he only met large young men who were interested in working dogs.

He got over this but has remained rather asocial. The other night, I had a drink with a neighbour in his garage and he went from one to another to be "fussed over".

I don't think one can just define dogs into "soft" and "hard". The issues are far too complex.

At the Dog Club he was very friendly with all and sundry but I always had to watch when people tried to approach us.


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

Matt, I've had the same exact issue with a dog I own. I'll PM u tomorrow. Too much to type on my phone. One similarity I noticed was the corrections at eight and nine months of age. In my opinion, not necessary and can manifest later on in what you're seeing now. I haven't read all the posts, so I'm not sure what has been suggested. Good luck with her anyways. I'll go back and read what was suggested later.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I don't think one can just define dogs into "soft" and "hard".


Sure you can! Hard vs soft has to do with the ability to recover.

A hard dog is one who is resilient, in other words recovers quickly from correction and adversity.

A soft dog is a dog who is not resilient, crumples in the face of corrections and adversity.

A handler sensitive dog can be either hard or soft, because all handler sensitive means is a dog who is sensitive to his handler, means he reacts to light handler corrections, doesn't mean he isn't resilient and doesn't mean he crumples, just means he doesn't need hard corrections.

I think people get the terminology confused because they think a dog that needs a hard correction is a hard dog and that's not the case.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Matt Vandart said:


> Hey dudes and dudettes,
> 
> Have been having problems with Sali and after consulting with a few people, have come to the conclusion she is soft as shit, lol
> Handler sensitive, corrections sensitive etc
> ...


If your dog actually is a "soft" dog:

Use whatever motivates her. From the video you posted on this thread, she is highly motivated by her ball. I thought you were giving her a food reward during the walk? If so, she's way more ball motivated.

Okay, so, with a soft dog, (dog that does not recover quickly of it's own volition), use whatever brings her drives back up. So have your ball on your person, when you correct her, quickly then bring out the ball. She doesn't even have to always get a play session with the ball, for some dogs, just seeing it is enough to bring them back to a happy place. Timing is everything. 

I'm starting to get a little confused about this thread. Are we also talking about aggression while on a walk? I didn't see it on the video posted so I'm not sure what's going on, but she looked pretty good in the video. I don't know what you've done to correct the aggressive behavior, but it seems to be working? If when on your walks, you see in advance a situation that is going to trigger her, have what will distract her back to you best (food or ball), and before she triggers, distract her, keep walking right on by, then reward when past whatever it is. Something that's worked for me with GSDs at the same age showing aggression out in public is corrections, but if your dog is soft, you want to be sure you have that ball to bring her back up.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Does one need to treat a so-called soft dog any differently from a so-called hard dog basically?

Bad behaviour is not allowed - good behaviour can be rewarded.

Dogs want to be governed - its in their nature. They feel secure with a strong handler.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Does one need to treat a so-called soft dog any differently from a so-called hard dog basically?
> 
> Bad behaviour is not allowed - good behaviour can be rewarded.
> 
> Dogs want to be governed - its in their nature. They feel secure with a strong handler.


Lol, sorry for the confusion, she is basically mended now and this ^^ is how I did it.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Guy Williams said:


> Matt,
> 
> I am currently running a dog that would be described as soft. Terminology is always an issue when talking about dogs but he is handler sensitive for sure. He was/is a very reactive dog and I can't help thinking that is partly why he is like he is. He is just sensitive to stimuli full stop and he reacts according to his experience of that particular stimuli.
> 
> ...


reactivity is a bad deal all the way around, when I started out training id take on dogs that were openly and highly reactive and some dangerous. Its virtually impossible to get past the issues in training. One key trait that stands out more than any other as being desirable after working with reactive dogs. STABILITY... I have had many reactive dogs some bad some really F*&^% up! These days I want to see stability ,,, fighting them in and out of the kennel and car ,, to hell with that LOL ,,, I wish ya the best with that one!


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Does one need to treat a so-called soft dog any differently from a so-called hard dog basically?
> 
> Bad behaviour is not allowed - good behaviour can be rewarded.
> 
> Dogs want to be governed - its in their nature. They feel secure with a strong handler.


my experiece says it comes down to the dog.. a dog with a strong temperament is great ,,, most of the time.. but the thing that makes them strong can also be a PITA ... so the stronger dog may require a bit more UMPHHH to get going your way if ya get my drift ,,, the softer dog is less likely to challenge and or blow off ... or thats the hope anyway lol


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Does one need to treat a so-called soft dog any differently from a so-called hard dog basically?
> 
> Bad behaviour is not allowed - good behaviour can be rewarded.
> 
> Dogs want to be governed - its in their nature. They feel secure with a strong handler.


Exactly! Well said.

I do not treat hard of soft dogs any differently. Its asking for trouble and it also builds down the character of the softer dog. Do not go down to the level of the softer dog but bring it up to be a harder dog. A hard or soft dog can both make excellent working dogs for sports and streetwork. A soft dog is a word that is used as an excuse to not follow through in your training of the dog, you are either stumped or clueless of what to do with it but most of the problems that you perceive in this socalled soft dog are problems you created yourself to begin with... or atleast that's my point of view on the whole soft/hard dog thing.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Exactly! Well said.
> 
> I do not treat hard of soft dogs any differently. Its asking for trouble and it also builds down the character of the softer dog. Do not go down to the level of the softer dog but bring it up to be a harder dog. A hard or soft dog can both make excellent working dogs for sports and streetwork. A soft dog is a word that is used as an excuse to not follow through in your training of the dog, *you are either stumped or clueless of what to do with it but most of the problems that you perceive in this socalled soft dog are problems you created yourself to begin with*... or atleast that's my point of view on the whole soft/hard dog thing.


Indeed this 

It turned out everyone that said sali was soft were full of shit anyway. That's seriously the last time I listen to peoples opinions about my dog by the way (not talking about anyone in this thread but rather people in the real world). I'm sticking with my judgement from now on. 
Sali is pain sensitive, not soft.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Does one need to treat a so-called soft dog any differently from a so-called hard dog basically?
> 
> Bad behaviour is not allowed - good behaviour can be rewarded.
> 
> Dogs want to be governed - its in their nature. They feel secure with a strong handler.




Excellent point!

The only difference may just be the level of correction if needed.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

susan tuck said:


> I'm starting to get a little confused about this thread. Are we also talking about aggression while on a walk? I didn't see it on the video posted so I'm not sure what's going on, but she looked pretty good in the video. I don't know what you've done to correct the aggressive behaviour, but it seems to be working? If when on your walks, you see in advance a situation that is going to trigger her, have what will distract her back to you best (food or ball), and before she triggers, distract her, keep walking right on by, then reward when past whatever it is. Something that's worked for me with GSDs at the same age showing aggression out in public is corrections, but if your dog is soft, you want to be sure you have that ball to bring her back up.


Thanks Susan for actually noticing she is mended now, it seems to have escaped some peoples attention.


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