# Training the running stand



## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

I am currently working on the running stand and thought this might be an interesting topic for discussion. I am open minded and would be currious to hear how every one else approaches it.

Right now my dog is pretty rusty from lack of training (had some surgeries that screwed me out of valuable time). He knows the stand very well from the fuse, but the running stand he seems to have a hard time stopping immediately. I have been using food and the pinch with a short tab and poping him back but still get an extra step or two. 

I have entertained the idea of adding a second line and a second handler to prevent forward movement, however in the past he has reacted unfavorably with second handler but it is worth a try. 

The trial is basically 4 weeks away, so I don't want to screw anything up but I wouldd like to tighten it down. I would rather get 8 pts on this exercise than 7 (ya know 8-[). 

Any ideas are welcome. Thanks!

Julie


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

After the Platz is solid I simply start giving the command from my side. First with a complete stop then added slow steps, fast steps and then the run.
The key to the whole deal is the dog really understanding the Platz. The position of the dog, the motion and speed are just looked at the same as adding distractions for any exercise taught.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I just watched somebody training it after our trial at the weekend.

The dog knew the stand well but didn't stop *abruptly* with both front paws level. She ran with him and like a flash of lightlning gave him a light slap with her hand against his neck. It worked but I think the handler needs to practice it to perfection - too hard and the dog might duck the next time in anticipation of the blow, too slow and the dog wont stop abruptly.

With one of my dogs I left the lead on and "slashed" it back across its chest but the above way seems better.


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## Mary Buck (Apr 7, 2010)

Does anyone do this with a target barrier? Dog is taught to slap two front feet on a barrier..and then motion is added in? It's a version of how some teach the MSFE . Great tuneup is to find some nice shallow steps...run the dog to the top and stop him front feet on the top step while handler carries on , not th only method...but a nice way to reinforce and work the problem conflict free.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

great topic...


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## Angie Stark (Jul 10, 2009)

forgive my ignorance...Im new
what is a running stand? Just what it sounds like, you running with dog at heel and then command to stand/stay just as you would a sit/down in motion and the handler continues on? This is part of a Schutzhund routine?


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Just one command is given with the expectation that the stand is concluded with a stay once the dog has locked up. Otherwise your understanding of the stand in motion exercise is accurate.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Good thread. I have been wanting to add a "stand" to my change of positions but with no discusion or ideas, got lazy.


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## Tim Leonard (Apr 23, 2010)

Prong collar aroud its rear end with someone controlling a leash behind the handler can help. Also, when rewarding for a successful stand in motion, throw the reward BEHIND the dog. Throwing in front of the dog will make him lean forward or take a few extra steps in anticipation of the reward that's coming...


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## Angie Stark (Jul 10, 2009)

Oh, ok then, my dog already does this. Taught the stand first then motion exercises. Once we got to the stand if he didn't do it, I went back and asked him to stand then continued walking and once he began to hold the position I would go back to him and pet him on the head while in his stand and then when I release him it's always behind that spot. We are rusty tho cause now if I say stand, he may or may not stand but if I say stay, he stands every time...which I guess is fine cause he froze where he was.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

I think Julie is talking about a dog that stops on a dime in a full run. I have noticed it is much harder for someone who tries to actually "RUN" because they are going faster than then someones who could only run as fast as I can walk. My advice is fake a leg injury and go slower .

I have seen it with electric (low stim), not telling you to try it but you do have time. The dog is told to stand and the each leg is lifted, one leg at a time, stim starts when the paw is off the ground and stops when paw goes down. This is done to each leg with you standing on the side of the dog. Again low stim, nothing that causes a whince. You know when he is learning when he gets it by when he trys pushing down when you go to pick up. This is followed by a walk when you hit continuous as he is getting the command and stim stops as soon as he complies. He will begin to learn the faster he stops the faster it goes away. The video I posted of Grizzly shows the first with nothing just to test and the second while walking stim"to start trying to get it right"!

In Grizzly's video he takes too many steps on the run, but again everyone's "run" is at a different speed and a slower person can make their dog look better but.....


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Here is the video. He looks dull but you see how poor the first stand in motion was! Hope it helps! And if your dog is "getting it" and putting pressure against you pulling up, pay him immeditely when his paw touches the ground. He will start slamming his paw down when it's in the air. I need to work on it also!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rupBy9IYbmY


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: I have entertained the idea of adding a second line and a second handler to prevent forward movement, however in the past he has reacted unfavorably with second handler but it is worth a try. 

How did you do that, and how did it go wrong, and did you only do it one session, or multiple sessions.


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## Aamer Sachedina (May 6, 2008)

I have a method that has been working quite well for me for a running stand with my dog. I hope that I can explain it well in written form. It may not necessarily help you for a 4 week fix but perhaps there are parts of it that you might find useful.

- First I taught the stand as a kick-back stand which is something I believe few people in Sch (around here anyway) do. I did this when my dog was a pup. I believe that it is important that the dog learn that when she hears the 'Stand' command, the command is executed with power applied from her rear legs to get into the position. I did this with the dog in front of me in a sit. I say the command and step into the dog 1 second later. As soon as she kicks back to stand up I mark and reward. Dog quickly learns that when I stay the command she kicks back and stands. Once the dog is doing this well, I transition it so the dog can do it properly beside me. 

- Then I taught my dog to walk backwards on command. I do this with the dog induced into a stand in front of me, I say 'BACK' and walk into the dog several steps so that she is backing up and mark and reward. I also do this from heel position along a wall so that she quickly generalizes that a BACK is that she takes steps back no matter what her position relative to my body.

- I do a lot of the teaching of the stand in motion (and a lot of the maintenance exercises even once my dog is a IPO3), walking and running backwards myself. That is, I will lure my dog to my right side with her facing me and I will walk or run backwards. This way during teaching I can be looking at exactly what she is doing and I can mark her behaviour without having eyes at the back of my head. I find that it generalizes quite well to me doing this in heel position with her (of course I ALWAYS either use spotter or have a mirror in front of me if I am doing that).

- I start doing stand in motions, first stationary, then walking on the spot then walking slowly and stopping and walking on the spot etc. etc. till my dog has the STAND in motion with no opportunity to creep as I am helping her. I do this both with her in heel position and with her to my right with me walking backwards. I want her to get used to both pictures.

- When I start doing stand in motions in earnest, I nearly always follow the stand command with a BACK command. Early in training, I will say STAND, then BACK (I am still moving away from the dog) and then I either step back (if she is in heel position) or step into the dog (I I am walking backwards with her on my right).

- My dog has learned to anticipate a BACK after the stand. I don't always do the back once the dog is doing it reliably. Occasionally I will just do a stand and reward her by marking the behaviour and throwing the ball back behind me to her so that she can get rewarded back there. I will either throw the ball to her position or behind her.

In a nut-shell, what I have found is that I want my dog to anticipate backward momentum when I give the dog a out of motion command (of any sort to be honest). The natural thing for the dog to anticipate is forward momentum because you as a handler are moving forward. If the dog gets into the habit of creeping because you don't do it in front of a mirror EVERY TIME, it is a hard habit to break. I find that doing these exercises with me walking or running backward is good for this because if I don't have a mirror, I resort to that. That way my dog never gets rewarded if she does not do what is right. 

The end result for me has been quite a crisp stand in motion during trial. Obviously I never say BACK in trail but in her head she has associated the STAND with a) power from the rear to execute the stand from the foundation work and b) backward anticipation because a BACK might likely follow the STAND.

I also try to NEVER reward the dog in front of it out of a stand in motion. i.e. I try not to let the the dog come to me for a reward even if I am only a few paces ahead. Either I throw the reward to the dog after marking it (a couple paces are probably inevitable after you mark it), or I try to throw the toy behind the dog. A lot of times once the dog knows the exercise well I will go to the dog and reward it. In such cases I might use a secondary reinforcer like 'GOOD' to mark the microsecond when my dog executed the stand.

Hope that is useful to someone.


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

Thanks Tim, I have what you have in your video right now. Not terrible but a few points being deducted... Incidently I am recovering from knee surgery about 4 weeks ago so my run will be slow. I do use an e-collar but never for the stand and I don't want to **** him up before the trial and kill his sit.....

Jeff the belly line or the second handler line usually puts my ab into a state of "fight" and at 110+ lbs right now with my fragile back and knee I don't want to go there. If I had to I would do it when I wasn't so close to a trial. I don't want to screw up anything else. He is otherwise working at a pretty high level for me and this is his final trial.

I will keep using the food. If I can remember I throw my hand in his face as a block in combination with the pop to the pinch collar- this seems to help. I then turn around and walk back and calmly praise him and feed him. I never throw the toy (never want them to break out of the stand is what I was taught).

I taught him to stand using food for showing originally and just transfered to schutzhund by walking and marking and verbally praising and food rewarding. I have used toys in the basic position only after moving out a few steps. 

Thanks,

Julie


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Angie Stark said:


> forgive my ignorance...Im new
> what is a running stand? Just what it sounds like, you running with dog at heel and then command to stand/stay just as you would a sit/down in motion and the handler continues on? This is part of a Schutzhund routine?


Sch III routine!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Jeff the belly line or the second handler line usually puts my ab into a state of "fight" and at 110+ lbs right now with my fragile back and knee I don't want to go there. If I had to I would do it when I wasn't so close to a trial.

I was thinking just a flat collar, long line, and a light tap at the command. Did you try this already ?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I have used the top step on my deck to tighten up the stand once the dog starts getting the idea of what's wanted.


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Jeff the belly line or the second handler line usually puts my ab into a state of "fight" and at 110+ lbs right now with my fragile back and knee I don't want to go there. If I had to I would do it when I wasn't so close to a trial.
> 
> I was thinking just a flat collar, long line, and a light tap at the command. Did you try this already ?


No, not recently, but I think I will try it Tuesday (for several reps) on our next session. That was my next idea (no heavy stuff I will use a light line & flat collar and get a light set of hands to help).

Aamer- Thanks for the great tips. I have just started teaching the stand to my GSD. I will use some of your information to re-think what I am doing. He is a much faster dog and I think what you have posted is very sound advice. Again, thanks!

Julie


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## Mike Jones (Jan 22, 2009)

Angie Stark said:


> Oh, ok then, my dog already does this. Taught the stand first then motion exercises. Once we got to the stand if he didn't do it, I went back and asked him to stand then continued walking and once he began to hold the position I would go back to him and pet him on the head while in his stand and then when I release him it's always behind that spot. We are rusty tho cause now if I say stand, he may or may not stand but if I say stay, he stands every time...which I guess is fine cause he froze where he was.


In Schutzhund you cannot have a double command. Only stand.


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## Mike Jones (Jan 22, 2009)

Before you move on to the running stand you must have a really solid walking stand. I do stand for a few months until my dog understands what it expected. I teach a stand by lifting the dogs rear up from a sit or if the dog is in a stand I say the command and click and treat. I then tell the dog to sit and lift of his rear end to stand and slick and treat. I do this for a while until the dog understands the command stand. 

For the motion exercise, I start out very slow with my dog with a slow motion walking stand. I proof this by walking around my dog making sure that he does not move. Once the dog understands what it means to stand than I slowing increase my speed. Initially I place my hand on his muzzle when I say stand. I do this for months until my dog starts to anticipate the exercise. Anticipation is the first sign of actual learning.

Once my dog has a solid walking stand at a normal pace I pick it up until eventually I am at a full run. During training I always put my hand in the dogs muzzle when I give the command. I've found that eventually the dog tries to come to a stand before I grab his muzzle. This is what you want. Right before trial you proof him without touching his muzzle once or twice but I always grab his muzzle as I give the stand command. Just remember is trial to drop the handler help...LOL

One thing I do when doing any motion exercise, I always take 20 steps instead of 12-15. This way in trial when I do 12-15 steps I won't get any early anticipation of the command.


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## Angie Stark (Jul 10, 2009)

Mike Jones said:


> In Schutzhund you cannot have a double command. Only stand.


At this point the command is "Stay" and he freezes in place


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Mike Jones said:


> Before you move on to the running stand you must have a really solid walking stand. I do stand for a few months until my dog understands what it expected. I teach a stand by lifting the dogs rear up from a sit or if the dog is in a stand I say the command and click and treat. I then tell the dog to sit and lift of his rear end to stand and slick and treat. I do this for a while until the dog understands the command stand.
> 
> For the motion exercise, I start out very slow with my dog with a slow motion walking stand. I proof this by walking around my dog making sure that he does not move. Once the dog understands what it means to stand than I slowing increase my speed. Initially I place my hand on his muzzle when I say stand. I do this for months until my dog starts to anticipate the exercise. Anticipation is the first sign of actual learning.
> 
> ...


That sounds sort of right to me - no 2nd person, no extra equipment. The girl I watched might have put her hand on the dog's muzzle - I was standing on the other side of the dog and thought she slapped it's neck.

The more you can train your dog without equipment, other handlers, etc. the better.


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## Angie Stark (Jul 10, 2009)

I tried it last night at the park. running next to him and "Stay" and he stops in his tracks, I kept running and made a wide circle and came back up behind him and released him.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Only verbally? Well done!


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## Mike Jones (Jan 22, 2009)

Gillian Schuler said:


> That sounds sort of right to me - no 2nd person, no extra equipment. The girl I watched might have put her hand on the dog's muzzle - I was standing on the other side of the dog and thought she slapped it's neck.
> 
> The more you can train your dog without equipment, other handlers, etc. the better.


The most important thing is to make sure that the dog understands that it must stop on the dime and not take an extra step or make any movement. Grabbing the muzzle helps because it kind of clues the dog when you first start to teach the exercise. 

I always watch my dog to make sure that he makes no movement. I also have club members watch from the side. So far, this method has worked well with my dog. I have enough problems at a trial with me being nervous so, I try not to leave any points on the table by working toward perfection. Judges take points for movement I cannot afford to loose any.


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