# clarify "social"



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i'm seriously curious so i wanted to post this in this section rather than non-working section and i'm talking about dogs trained in a protection related sport or actually working in that venue

the term "social" is used here a lot and i'm wondering what that really means to people on the WDF.

so....if you say your dog is social does that mean it will actually play with other dogs or people outside your "pack" as opposed to just being neutral and non reactive ?

i know a lot of listers don't feel your dog needs to be "social" in this way, or feel this type of temperament might even be wrong for a protection trained dog, so this is not being posted to restart that debate 

- but in terms of being "social", i'm thinking it would include this type behavior, but i don't recall this ever being specifically mentioned or a vid ever being posted.
- is it because it doesn't happen often, or because you prefer not to post a vid of your dog playing with other dogs ?

(i'm talking about the kind of vids you will find all over youtube of dogs playing with "other" dogs and "other" people that may include some biting and nipping of both)

- for example, my current dog will NOT play with other dogs or strangers on its own, so i do not consider it social at all, even tho it won't fight with other dogs or bite strangers. but i would never refer to it as being social.
- another example : i can take it to a dog park and walk it around with me without causing an incident, but i will not let it off lead inside one

- strictly a neutral dog for me ... which makes my def more "expanded", such as :
1.social -- 2.neutral -- 3.anti-social
with #3 being a pita and of limited value to me //lol//

or, to ask it another way :
is "social" black or white, or is there a grey area in this term ?
TIA


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## Jay Quinn (Apr 1, 2012)

i am going to guess here that people's definitions will vary... 

i will use one of my own dogs as an example, i took him to a funeral today... this is a dog who has had live bites and lives for a fight, will go from zero to batsh!t in half a second if he thinks there is the chance of chompy-times or even a good muzzle fight... would break up a riot every night of the week and love every second of it... 

but he was a perfect gentleman today, lay quietly at my feet while we stood guard by my partner's coffin during the service, had no issues with all the people who came up to hug me afterwards (even though i probably would really have preferred if they didn't, but it's kinda hard to dodge at something like that), was happy to be patted by everyone there who wanted to say hello to him, properly sooked up to those that he actually knew, and was not fazed at all by the other handler's dog having a bark or two at him from a distance of about 15ft away... 

that being said i would never let him roam freely among a crowd, or let him offlead with other dogs to play, and i have to keep him separate from the rest of my pack at home, as 'play' escalates and gets rougher and then becomes serious, and he has put a big hole in one of my other boys on a previous occasion that required an emergency vet visit, and a drain in the wound for a week... >_<


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Rick,

I would definitely separate the two different categories, regarding PEOPLE and DOGS when looking at "social" traits.

There may be some similarities between the two in some dogs, but they are definitely not dependent upon each other.


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## Kevin Cyr (Dec 28, 2012)

rick smith said:


> i'm seriously curious so i wanted to post this in this section rather than non-working section and i'm talking about dogs trained in a protection related sport or actually working in that venue
> 
> the term "social" is used here a lot and i'm wondering what that really means to people on the WDF.
> 
> ...


 
Social can almost be similar to Neetral in things in general dogs and people. A working dog must be able to work in areas with other dogs, animals and people off leash, its social/neutral behavior is critical to not going after someone or other animals while staying on task in what it is being asked to do.....not to mention not eat its handler every time it receives a correction.

It also doesn't mean the dog is weaker or less aggressive, should be strong and confident in everything it does. Aggressive when told or needs to be.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

According to Webster's (picking out the pertainent ones):

Social (adj)

1a) living together in communiteis
b) of or relating to communal living

2) living in an organized group or similar close aggregate
3) Enjoying the company of others: sociable
4) intended for convivial activites

I think that "social" depends on what an individual person defines it to means to them. Because as an adjective its used to limit, qualify or specify and is subordinate or dependent on a noun or its position in a phrase or sentence. 
Your social may not meet my social. I know that my 'social' - to meet my needs - others would put in the catagory of typical pet dog. So 'social' is not black and white unless you define what it means to you.


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## Kevin Cyr (Dec 28, 2012)

Sarah Platts said:


> According to Webster's (picking out the pertainent ones):
> 
> Social (adj)
> 
> ...


Ur funny


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I break it down as follows:

social - enjoys and will even seek attention/interaction with others, including strangers. Then you can clarify if that's dog social, people social, or both.

neutral - does not feel any need/urge to seek attention or interaction with others, derives no enjoyment from it, but is tolerant of it. Doesn't resent it, just doesn't care. I also sometimes use the term "socially stable" for this, meaning a dog who is not a threat or danger in a social environment but isn't really social.

anti-social - does not enjoy, and actively resents, interactions with others

Each of these is how the dog interacts with people and/or dogs outside of it's immediate pack, not how it interacts with it's owner or pack. And there are shades of grey, I don't think you can put every dog in just 1 category. I have one that depending on the situation and his mood at the moment could be in any one of the 3 categories. Sometimes he is very social with people. Sometimes he just doesn't give a rip, and other times he really does not want to interact and resents it. As a pup he was more often in the anti-social/neutral categories, lots of positive interactions with people have made him more social. His half sister on the other hand is solidly in the social category 99% of the time. And one of her brothers was solidly in the anti-social category, although with training learned to be neutral, or at least behave as if he was. LOL


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

I think there are variations on social to anti-social and like Joby, think dog social and human social are two different things, though they often go together in many dogs. 

I would call all my dogs social, though they are different. My DS is closest to neutral and will check out new people, be comfortable in a crowd, but really doesn't care about others unless there's something in it for her, like food, a toy, or something to bite. The Mal likes people, will happily soak up attention, but isn't overly solicitous about it. The current foster dog loves everybody and may be a Golden in a pointy-eared suit.

They are all fairly dog social, too, and have interacted with other dogs, mostly familiar ones throughout their lives. I would not consider them dog park suitable - the mal plays too rough for most pet dogs, but they are not anti-social, neither shy nor aggressive, just too much for the average pet dog. 

If you want to see videos of dogs playing, rick, I can post some of my DS playing with one of my foster dogs, also a DS. The foster was super social with my dogs, got them running and playing, played great with my friend's dogs, but was not reliable around human strangers (fear biter?)


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Get a different dog...this is too funny. Social. Drinks your last beer and buys more...


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

you're prob right Howard
........why should i ever waste my time to post a thread like this on a forum like this ?
time for a break and a few beers


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

My dogs...
Katya is dog aggressive with females unless they are submissive to her. Intact submissive females she is not social with, just neutral. Males she is social with
She is people social. She will love a stranger and be aggressive only if asked to be. Otherwise she's a Labrador. 

jäger is not dog social. He does not show aggression at them but show very dominant posturing with them. He plays with only one dog ever, and that's Katya. He doesn't even play with aska (Katya's dam whom I own, but what guy does enjoy hanging with the mother in law anyway). Jäger is not people social with strangers, that is, he wants no interaction with them. People pet him public but he is indifferent to it. 

He *is highly social with people he knows. He strongly desires interaction with people and uses toys to get that interaction. Katya uses people to play with toys. In that regard, I'd call jäger more people social than Katya... However Katya would never growl at a stranger in public who is knowingly or unknowingly posturing. Jäger *always will. So by some definitions that might be anti social. Also, people have to be around him and showing affection for a little while before he reciprocates. Then he will greet and show affection to that person a year or more later without seeing them. Katya stared at me like she didn't know who I was for 5 seconds when I boarded her for two weeks lol.

Someone tell me what you'd call the above


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

I'm typically posting while taking a break and having beers... Like right now lol


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I think in terms of "socially reliable." Generally, I don't have to worry about the dog nailing a dog or person unless they do something stupid. I don't allow my dogs to play or interact with dogs outside of their pack--they are to be ignored. People, I encourage as puppies and usually as they mature they are in either the aloof or seek interaction group. Its their call. I think Kadi's breakdown is how I view it except her neutral is generally what I call "aloof:" no fear or resentment, just don't care or respond--which is fine. I think when you are asking people about a dog, you really do have to define it. I asked someone recently whether the dog was tolerant of other dogs and confident with people and the response was "yes." Three days later I asked if the dog had ever interacted with strangers--dogs or people and the answer was "no.":roll:


T


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Social to me means my dogs will except anyone and anything they are exposed to in a neutral manner. 
My older dog will play with puppies but is neutral to adult dogs as long as they aren't in his face. He will "warn" adult dogs that are in his space but I've never let it get to the point of him having to defend himself. 
Younger dog is an absolute clown with a dark side. happy and friendly with everyone and anything....IF I allowed it. I don't simply because he has next to no threat display when he gets pissed.
People view the older dog as a "nice" dog simply because he ignores people and adult dogs. That's foolishness!
People ALL seem to want to play with #2 because he seems so "happy". He is....BUT

I don't allow strangers to pet either one. They don't need the attentions of strangers.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I think Kadi's breakdown is how I view it except her neutral is generally what I call "aloof:" no fear or resentment, just don't care or respond--which is fine.


I used to call it "aloof", until I met many people who used aloof as an excuse for insecure/fear behavior. The "My dog won't allow you to touch it because it's 'aloof', just like the breed standard says it should be" crowd, when their "aloof" dog is cowering behind them or otherwise showing clear fear/insecurity.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Rick Smith said:

quote

- for example, my current dog will NOT play with other dogs or strangers on its own, so i do not consider it social at all, even tho it won't fight with other dogs or bite strangers. but i would never refer to it as being social.
- another example : i can take it to a dog park and walk it around with me without causing an incident, but i will not let it off lead inside one

unquote

Are you talking here about strange or known dogs. I think it is quite normal for adult dogs not to want to play with other dogs.

Even a tiny pup that strays from the "Rudel" to another "Rudel" will not live to see another day.

I know you said this was aimed at protection dogs but I assume a protection dog would not be allowed to "play" with other dogs. For what reason?? 

My Briard was mostly indifferent to other dogs, unless they challenged him. I learned that this dog was dominant even though I initially didn't think so.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I used to call it "aloof", until I met many people who used aloof as an excuse for insecure/fear behavior. The "My dog won't allow you to touch it because it's 'aloof', just like the breed standard says it should be" crowd, when their "aloof" dog is cowering behind them or otherwise showing clear fear/insecurity.


 
"_until I met many people"_

It's amazing how many people are conscious of their weak canines, even enough to adorn them with the title of "aloof".

I mean, they haven't given birth to these creatures so what's the big issue??


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I used to call it "aloof", until I met many people who used aloof as an excuse for insecure/fear behavior. The "My dog won't allow you to touch it because it's 'aloof', just like the breed standard says it should be" crowd, when their "aloof" dog is cowering behind them or otherwise showing clear fear/insecurity.


Agreed. Have had to explain many times, that aloof does not mean fear. 


T


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I used to call it "aloof", until I met many people who used aloof as an excuse for insecure/fear behavior. The "My dog won't allow you to touch it because it's 'aloof', just like the breed standard says it should be" crowd, when their "aloof" dog is cowering behind them or otherwise showing clear fear/insecurity.


Were they doberman people per chance?

My dobes are completely neutral, Sali the Mal is neutral and a-social as in she ignores other dogs people but also doesn't wan't to interact with them and lets them know this, generally, bordering on PIA. She will however play with any dog she knew before 6 months old, but if they 'diss her' (in her head she turns into an asshole) Having said that when she is 'working' she is oblivious to people and other dogs, completely.

Alsi my other Mal is extremely social which is not normal for me but I felt like a change so left her to it.


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## catherine hardigan (Oct 12, 2009)

I'm always surprised by the number of people who prefer less social animals. Maybe it just comes down to lifestyle. I move with some regularity (occasionally overseas) and often live with roommates (sometimes they have dogs too). Currently, I live in a town with heavy foot/bike traffic and more than one outdoor cafe that allows well mannered dogs. In my neighborhood there are lots of dogs, kids, and pedestrians, and my roommates and I frequently have friends over. I have owned one dog that I would consider to be unsocial... I managed, but it was difficult. Neutral and social dogs are definitely preferable to me. My current dog enjoys biking down to the cafe and relaxing next to me while a drink a coffee and read the news.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Less-social has nothing to do with anti-social. 
I can take my dogs anywhere without worry that they may bite someone but that still doesn't mean they have to be friends with anyone outside my family and those I choose to include in their space.

Fearful and aloof? I never looked at it like that but I understand how it can be misunderstood. 
Aloof, to me is nothing more then my dogs having no interest in people they don't know or people I haven't introduced them to. 
Be aware of people's presence, absolutely, but to be afraid of them wouldn't be something I wouldn't want in any dog of mine.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Matt Vandart said:


> Were they doberman people per chance?


No, it's been in the herding breeds. Belgians of all flavor but also Aussies and other breeds. My Dobes ranged from social to neutral.


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## Marlene Ferguson (Feb 1, 2012)

rick smith said:


> ...
> - for example, my current dog will NOT play with other dogs or strangers on its own, so i do not consider it social at all, even tho it won't fight with other dogs or bite strangers. but i would never refer to it as being social.
> - another example : i can take it to a dog park and walk it around with me without causing an incident, but i will not let it off lead inside one
> 
> ...


I would agree with your definition of a "neutral" dog (I would consider this an "aloof" dog).

I would consider a "social" dog one that is interested in friendly interaction with non-pack members. That is a fairly broad spectrum. Low key: Just casually leaning on, or snuffling, or presenting oneself for pets, with a stranger standing with/near the handler. Social Butterfly: Actively seeking out folks to interact with through play and pets, whether known to them or not (my dogs).

My dogs are both titled in IPO, have met several strangers on and off the field, and are actively social dogs (verging on Social Butterflies). I don't mind, but it can be a PITA at times and disconcerting to some strangers when the large dog trots over to be pet (at club training).


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Marlene
you are talking about two rotties, correct ?
- i could see how they might intimidate some strangers, but i'll bet it would be much more of a PITA if they were anti-social 

i tried to buy one from one of my customers. it loved to bite and she never learned how to control it properly and hated how it would "terrorize" her friends ;-(

but one of the most confident, stable and social dogs i've ever been around. i kept begging her just to let me take it off her hands and even offered her more than it was worth, but she wouldn't sell

consider yourself lucky for what you have //lol//


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## Marlene Ferguson (Feb 1, 2012)

rick smith said:


> Marlene
> you are talking about two rotties, correct ?
> - i could see how they might intimidate some strangers, but i'll bet it would be much more of a PITA if they were anti-social
> 
> ...


Yes, two rottweilers. Yes, more of a PITA if they were anti-social. However, they did miss the days in school where they said rottweilers are an aloof dog: That word is not in their vocabulary. But, it makes for good PR concerning both rottweilers and SchH/IPO.

I do consider myself lucky, but I've worked hard to make sure they are not a menace to society.


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## Jim Delbridge (Jan 27, 2010)

Social: Able to work around and among 13 fire fighters through rain forest like vegetation while looking for decedents.
Social: Allows deputies to reach into his part of my vehicle after a search to ruffle his ears without reacting negatively..
Social: Goes to dogs in adjacent areas, does a "hi, how ya doing? I'll be working over here." and then returns to me and goes back to work.

Non-social: makes an extended cab duelie appear to be lifting off the ground as it jumps around and barks at the tops of it's lungs in its crate when anyone passes by the vehicle. Causes law enforcement to put signs on their vehicle that states, "Caution! K9 inside!"

The former causes those I work with to look forward to working with my dog and me on cases. The latter can get itself shot when it's officer releases it out of the vehicle and it goes after a strange officer in the immediate area. The latter is documented. I knew the handler and the dog. I can't say I was surprised.

Seems to me to be two good examples of extremes. Social equates to civilized. Non-social equates to possible threat regardless of the outer appearance of the canine. I know a lot of officers that trust their K9s off-lead in social/non-working/demo situations and depend on them not to hesitate when working as an apprehension dog.

If I had an apprehension dog, I would want one with an off-switch that acted such that mothers would not grab their kids out of caution and could relax if their kid approached the dog. It is not as simple as it sounds. With the majority of canine "pets" I know, the mothers should not relax if their kids approach said dog simply because the dog has not been conditioned to having it's ears, coat, and tail pulled. The dog doesn't understand that it has to tolerate the foolish human shoving its fingers in their sight line. And the dog hasn't been taught to tolerate repeated slapping on top of it's head with a flat palm that some consider affection. I remember my first working dog staring intently at me at a Special Olympics where I'd handed my lead to a kid. She was being slapped on top of the head and could be seen sighing heavily until I rescued her. This same dog could be placed in the cab of my truck with the windows down and would sit in the center, smiling with all her teeth showing at anyone stupid enough to approach the open window. If the hand continued, she would emit a low growl. I never saw anyone push it further than that. So, yes, I considered her "socially acceptable among ignorant humans." She never bit a strange dog, but had the nickname (at seminars) of the "fun monitor" as she'd wade into a pack of dogs the handlers all let loose and quickly disperse them then walk back to me utterly satisfied.

Jim Delbridge


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## Lisa Radcliffe (Jun 9, 2011)

Jim Delbridge said:


> Social: Able to work around and among 13 fire fighters through rain forest like vegetation while looking for decedents.
> Social: Allows deputies to reach into his part of my vehicle after a search to ruffle his ears without reacting negatively..
> Social: Goes to dogs in adjacent areas, does a "hi, how ya doing? I'll be working over here." and then returns to me and goes back to work.
> 
> ...


Jim, so are you saying you see no place in the apprehension world for these kinds of "Non Social" dogs or just that they are not what you like to see?


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## Jim Delbridge (Jan 27, 2010)

"Jim, so are you saying you see no place in the apprehension world for these kinds of "Non Social" dogs or just that they are not what you like to see?"


There is always a place for certain tools and that's what a "non-social" dog is. It's not a companion. It's a tool that requires the right operator just like I'm an area manager, support staff, coach, etc. for my working dog. Unfortunately, it's easy to make a dog that will bite any human it can reach. A local prison has just such a program where the dogs are donated to it as they are too aggressive. Only one human is allowed to care for these dogs. If that human is sick or on vacation, no one sees to those dogs. These dogs run a perimeter between two fences that block the prisoners from the "civilized world." 

I believe that any dog that is expected to interact with the public (even by accident) should have an off-switch OR the dog will get shot out of self-defense, and/or an innocent could get attacked. About ten years or so ago I was shown an mpeg (when mpegs were new) of the French counter-terrorism dogs. One dog was launching itself at a fellow shooting a gun suggesting it had been trained with blanks with the justification of better the dog than an officer. At the end of the short movie, the handlers were shown with their dogs in a line and the handlers were wearing chain mail gloves. I wondered why till I saw one of the dogs turn to its handler and bite the snot out of the gloved hand.
The fellow that showed me the mpeg wanted to do the same thing with Airedales. I pretty much broke off communication with him after that.

I don't especially like the thought of breeding programs that focus on aggression as there will always be a fear-biter in the litter and an aggressive fear-biter is the worst possible scenario. I tested a litter of Airedales four years ago from "German lines" and came across one five-week old puppy that did not like the "on their back test" so stared me in the eye, then turned his head, bit hard into my thumb, then turned back to stare at me some more. I suggested he go into Shutzhund and I'm pretty sure that's where he went. I suggested that because he was going to need lots of control. The message I got from that little encounter was, "If I was full grown, I'd be kicking your ass right now."
And, that's ok, that's why I test. He was also the only puppy that liked human remains scent, but I look for a whole package in a dog I want to work.

Some statistics state that one in 25 people are sociopaths of some degree. Many sociopaths become CEOs and major statesmen as they can climb those ladders without conscience. They are viable, productive human beings if all goes well. If things don't go well, they can spiral out of control. Watching many republican politicians lately, I just have to think of that and smile. Thinking of the Bridge scandal in New Jersey, I just laugh. (I'm an independent btw who thinks all politicians are just crooks that get to make the rules to keep themselves out of jail.)

There will always be dogs like that Airedale puppy as it's a statistical certainty in the genetics. We just have to hope that the right handler or situation matches up with that dog to keep it balanced such that it doesn't spiral out of control requiring it to be put down. Humans get a lot of second, third, fourth chances....dogs tend to get very few before the humans decide it's just better to put them down. If that dog without an off-switch chases a bad guy into a day care, it would be a sad day indeed.

Unfortunately, like with wolf-dogs, cane corsos, pit bulls, ad nausea, I think a lot of handlers get "a lot of dog" for all the wrong reasons and "shit happens."

Sorry, clear as mud, I know.

Jim Delbridge


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Interesting stuff, thanks


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