# Manners & Socialization



## Travis Ragin (Apr 10, 2010)

WOW,speaking of a post needing it's own thread.....can a moderator remove my name off of topic starter and give credit here to Mr.*David Ruby*?


David Ruby posted:


> Questions for the OP:
> 
> Manners: Why couldn't you just teach the dog general manners? Stuff like not running over people or scratching them and going nuts. At some age that behavior goes from being cute to potentially getting people hurt and you & your dog into trouble.
> 
> ...


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## Jennifer Thornton (Dec 12, 2010)

My dobe is so aggressive in training and is a PP dog as well. But I socialized him and still do with strangers. He's wonderful with adults and children alike. I like that's can take him anywhere with me and I can trust him (for the most part, I still keep an eye on him all the while). 
He is balanced. He knows what weird behavior is and will fire off at the drop of a hat. He will also guard his space if he is tied out. But no one should be just walking up without you to a tethered dog, I don't care if it's a Pomeranian. 

In short, I wholeheartedly agree. I get more complements on how sweet he is off of the field especially when they watch him train or trial.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

He didn't eat me when I microchipped him. That was good enough for me! \\/

That does bring up some considerations as a vet working with working and sport dogs. It's interesting how different they can be. Some are so stoic and insensitive to pain, you can do just about anything to them that you need to do. Others are incredibly aware or reactive of their space around strangers being handled, so can make getting vet stuff done to them a bit dicey sometimes.


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## Bart Karmich (Jul 16, 2010)

What do you think about the requirements of the BH and CSAU? Although I don't believe the tests involve actually touching the dog, (other than the tatoo check) the tests and therefore the sports of Schutzhund, IPO, and French Ring effectively require the dog be neutral to strangers and strange dogs.

Or is the idea that if you can pass the test one time that you're good to go regardless of the actual character of the dog?


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## Travis Ragin (Apr 10, 2010)

Jennifer Thornton said:


> (for the most part, I still keep an eye on him all the while). .


Absolutely....you must!


The sharper an individual would prefer their dog to be.....would mean that one would have to anticipate, as much as 5 steps ahead of everything.


They are just dumb dogs.







> He is balanced. *He knows what weird behavior is* and will fire off at the drop of a hat. He will also guard his space if he is tied out


Great Stuff!!!!!!!


That's what a good dog is supposed to do,if that is what you expect them to do.......they are very much intelligent enough animals to be honed/trained in this fashion.....pretty much all of them.


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## Travis Ragin (Apr 10, 2010)

Maren Bell Jones posted:


> +1
> 
> Nice post, David. If you bring your dog out in public like basically at all, there WILL be clueless people who try petting your dog without permission, get in their space, or just in general don't think about what they are doing. Yesterday after training, I met my husband for lunch at a cafe where they allow dogs if they are well behaved out on their outdoor patio. I did not want to leave him in the hot car. Where they put us, the waitress had to step over my dog's body multiple times to bring our food and so on and so this is what training this sort of thing is for. I would never step over a dog I didn't know without at least asking, but he took it in stride since he had been taught to do so. He's not a social butterfly either, but since he's quite stable in personality and can usually read a threat and he has been taught not to be reactive, nobody's legs got bit like 30 minutes earlier in bitework. :wink:
> __________________
> The training is nothing. The will is everything.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

I pay my trainer to come with me to the vet. Helps keep him under control...the last vet I was at had no concept of working dogs. Found one that works with police K9's so it should be a little better.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

was referred to a navy couple who just transferred here with a 3yr old gsd mix desperately trying to "socialize" it and build confidence
---- i met the dog - could be the poster child for "nerve bag shitter" 
mama and papa holding its leash tight as it cowered between them and u could barely tell it ha a long tail
...right away they try to bring it to me to "meet me" so i tell them to back the heck off and just park it .... couple minutes later the dog finally gives in to some chicken and comes over to me
---- so what am i gonna do, tell them to get another dog ? NOT gonna happen ... that kind of advice RARELY applies even tho i read a lot about it 

what is the problem ? obvious 
"curable" ?? of COURSE not
how to get it better ?
show them how to PLAY with their damn dog when it's out rather than try to SOCIALIZE it ](*,)](*,)](*,)

i go to a quiet area and ask them to play with their dog ... they don't have a clue what to do .... i ask why ... they say because it is too "nervous" to play ](*,)](*,)](*,)

of course the tight leash with three turns wrapped around papa aren't helping matters either ](*,)](*,)](*,)

tied a 15ft nylon drag line to secure the dog so they could dump the lead then told mama and papa to separate and take turns calling the dog.
had to give em some treats since of course they had none

- like a freaking "miracle" (to them) the dog actually looked like it was starting to have fun

extreme case, but my POINT applies in many situations : socializing works just FINE when you ignore the environment and have FUN with your dog rather than try and get it to "deal" with new stuff ](*,)](*,)](*,)

THAT part should come much later imo
if your dog doesn't enjoy being out with YOU, forget about making it "social" with strangers 

...yeah i know i'll hear about how everyone already knows this but i see a LACK of it ALL the time with people "out" with their dog


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## Travis Ragin (Apr 10, 2010)

rick smith said:


> extreme case, but my POINT applies in many situations : socializing works just FINE when you ignore the environment and have FUN with your dog rather than try and get it to "deal" with new stuff ](*,)](*,)](*,)


You posted the same point that I was making.....and you are making it sound like we are in disagreement??


I think I read somewhere the moderators said we can't get political here Rick Smith


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Ben Thompson said:


> I pay my trainer to come with me to the vet. Helps keep him under control...the last vet I was at had no concept of working dogs. Found one that works with police K9's so it should be a little better.


Yes, I do my vet work for my working dog friends a bit differently than for the pet people. When I come over to their homes or kennels, I don't talk to the dog or even look at the dog except in a roundabout way. I usually sit down in a chair and make myself as neutral as possible so the dog can see me and appraise me and vice versa. I will usually talk with the owner/handler for 10-15 minutes getting the history and so on before I even touch the dog. If the dog is social to some degree (most are), I'll pet them under the chin and chest a bit, but no in their face "oh, who's a good boy? You are, you are!" kind of stuff. The owner handles the dog and I try when possible to get any blood from the vein in the back legs while the owner can briskly scratch their front shoulder. Same with the rabies. The nice thing about most working or working sport dog owners is they are not at all offended about muzzling the dog to keep them honest. Unlike the pet people sometimes.... #-o


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

rick smith said:


> extreme case, but my POINT applies in many situations : socializing works just FINE when you ignore the environment and have FUN with your dog rather than try and get it to "deal" with new stuff ](*,)](*,)](*,)


Yeah, maybe it should be "environmentalization" or "exposuring" or some other made up word. How about sensitivity training?  The dogs I've seen are socialized to the extent that they learn how to act around people, not necessarily be their best friend or tolerate being touched or played with by strangers. Just manners and just learning to deal with stuff by ignoring it and just letting them get out there and experience it because, hey, it's no big deal! You did X and nothing bad happened a/o I (the handler) am not getting bent out of shape so nothing to worry about. I am not an expert in this, however I've seen enough to sort of see how they do it and that they tend to just encourage the dogs to explore the world. That's an oversimplification, and I'm not a dog trainer so that's probably dumbed down a bit. The overall impression I get is it's for the dogs to just see the world in a safe manner, get exposure and desensitized to environmental stuff and just learn how to react while building confidence.

Anyway, I was not intending my comments to read socialization as "force your dog to let people pet it" or making it do stuff way out of character for it or outside what it's capable of handling. However, I have seen trainers make dogs do perfectly reasonable things that were just outside the dogs' comfort zones, then reinforce it for bonding and making the dog see that it was not so scary that X happened.

In the situation above, the dog's at a disadvantage. In your words, it's a 3 year old "nerve bag shitter" with nervous handlers. The dog sounds like it needs to be evaluated, then the handlers need to be trained. At that point, you're no just socializing the dog you're dealing with whatever baggage (genetics, nerves, history, etc.) the dog is bringing to the table. Being friends with people in the rescue biz, you see a lot of dogs that have issues, maybe not the strongest genetics, or years of other people screwing them up in one way or another and they have to rehabilitate the dog and rehome them. So you see a lot of this stuff even second hand and you can just see how if they had been worked right from the start issues X, Y, and Z would have either never manifested or been worked around right away.

-Cheers


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i'm not disagreeing with people here and i DEF am not trying to be political.

all i'm trying to write is a slightly different perspective on the socializing issue based on what has worked for me with a variety of dogs, and it is hard to put in words.,...but i do it a LOT

i am not trying to "neutralize" a dog per se when i'm out and about
i am also NOT trying to expose the dogs to new environments
in fact my goal is for the dog to TOTALLY ignore the environment around it and make the dog focus 150 percent on ME
- the "environment" is there but i control where we go nd what we do - TOGETHER

NO, i don't want anyone coming up to the dog .... instead i take the dog to them, IF and when i want to...much later in the game

- fwiw, i can't imagine ANYONE who would allow someone to "run up" and get in the dog's face so that the dog (in play or prey) might be able to grab a jacket or anything else ... that is just poor handler control and i won't accept any reason why it "happened"... and where i live and do this it is VERY congested

not gonna get in any arguments over this ... works for me and that's all that matters 

taking dogs to people and the meet/greet/petting stuff is an entirely different issue and doubt anyone wants to read how i do that either 

but no politics here ... sorry if it sounded political


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## Jennifer Thornton (Dec 12, 2010)

I think the main key to all of this is for your dog to TRUST you in any given situation. But I don't want to make my dog a stick in the mud from over exposing him to new environments. 

How I handle new environments with my dogs is to make them do light obedience to show that this place is no different, as far as rules go, than home or the field. When it's a new person meeting him, obedience. A simple sit or down for control and it gives me time to see if he's going to accept this person or not. 

All in all, I make new places FUN!


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Bart Karmich said:


> What do you think about the requirements of the BH and CSAU? Although I don't believe the tests involve actually touching the dog, (other than the tatoo check)


The CSAU specifically includes touching the dog outside of the tattoo check, and also without command from the owner. IE no telling Fido "sit/stay" which he's really been trained means "you will now be touched and if you react I will rip your head off so BE GOOD". You also hand the leash to someone, again with no command, and walk off out of sight. The dogs don't have to be friendly, but they at least have to be neutral



> the tests and therefore the sports of Schutzhund, IPO, and French Ring effectively require the dog be neutral to strangers and strange dogs.


That's the goal/intent.



> Or is the idea that if you can pass the test one time that you're good to go regardless of the actual character of the dog?


That's the reality.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re: "How I handle new environments with my dogs is to make them do light obedience to show that this place is no different, as far as rules go, than home or the field. When it's a new person meeting him, obedience. A simple sit or down for control and it gives me time to see if he's going to accept this person or not. "

agreed. and the amount of OB required to keep the dog in control is my measure of progress ...


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## Travis Ragin (Apr 10, 2010)

Jennifer Thornton said:


> But I don't want to make my dog a stick in the mud from over exposing him to new environments.


I'm kind of on the fence about whether I think you can over socialize a dog or not.....but anyway from that post you sound like a cool chick to hang around!(don't you know Dobies TURN on you?) 
No offense to you LadiesOO





Jennifer Thornton said:


> How I handle new environments with my dogs is to make them do light obedience to show that this place is no different, as far as rules go, than home or the field.


Thanks for taking the time to explain how *you* do this....sounds pretty simple to me.






Jennifer Thornton said:


> All in all, I make new places FUN!


If a person *own's *a dog and are not having fun owning it?.....I feel sorry for the dog and the person


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## Jennifer Thornton (Dec 12, 2010)

Travis Ragin said:


> I'm kind of on the fence about whether I think you can over socialize a dog or not.....but anyway from that post you sound like a cool chick to hang around!(dont you know Dobies TURN on you?
> No offense to you LadiesOO
> 
> 
> ...


Haha thank you! I think it is pretty cut and dry. My bond with my dobe and GSD is very strong. So I can trust them to trust me as to what is ok or not. 

Agreed with the fun remark. If its not fun, why have them at all? JMO


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

QUOTE=Maren Bell Jones;347736]Yes, I do my vet work for my working dog friends a bit differently than for the pet people. When I come over to their homes or kennels, I don't talk to the dog or even look at the dog except in a roundabout way. I usually sit down in a chair and make myself as neutral as possible so the dog can see me and appraise me and vice versa. I will usually talk with the owner/handler for 10-15 minutes getting the history and so on before I even touch the dog. If the dog is social to some degree (most are), I'll pet them under the chin and chest a bit, but no in their face "oh, who's a good boy? You are, you are!" kind of stuff. The owner handles the dog and I try when possible to get any blood from the vein in the back legs while the owner can briskly scratch their front shoulder. Same with the rabies. The nice thing about most working or working sport dog owners is they are not at all offended about muzzling the dog to keep them honest. Unlike the pet people sometimes.... #-o[/QUOTE]

Yeah working dogs need to go to vets that are used to those kinds of dogs. You can't do that "cutie patutie" kind of talk with these dogs(if you don't know them).


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

when I had pups, I did allow people to love on Luna a little, just to show that she was stable an mostly social in normal settings.

One dude kinda freaked me out a little, asked if he could pet her, said sure, he then knelt down and had his hands on her, I was watching very closely, as the dog rolled over on the ground for a good rubdown... I did not allow his children to do that, but did walk her all around them to show that she was not looking to bite anyone.

I sold a few crates on craigslist, one guy came in. He wanted the crate that my dog was in at the time, so I took her out of it, and asked if he minded the dog being out, he of course did not, and so I let her loose, she kinda leaned on him trying to push him over, and he also decided to lean way over and give her a hug. My pulse went up a little but the dog was fine, seemed to love the guy...

I dont worry about kids, cause I dont really allow them to be all over the dog in public, there are 6 or 7 different teenagers that come here to visit, like 12 or so to 18, and she works them pretty good for attention. she does fire up on most of them when she is in her crate and they go to leave out the door. but out of the crate she is fine with them leaving. 

of course I dont let anyone tug with the dog, or try to play with toys with her, cept the family members here. the one kid spent the night and she got a ball from somewhere and brought it to him, and started growling at him when he put his hand out to try to take it...that kid was a dumb little sucker anyways....first time he pet the dog he starts growling at her...lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxFDLqIXoWw


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## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

My dog is pretty social, but basically watchful/suspicious of others. If I am walking around the neighborhood, and stop to talk to someone, she may initially growl or show some intensity of eye towards them. I then put her down and walk over to them, after a while, if I call her over (rather than them approaching her) she will let them pet her or whatever. I also make a point of letting the neighbors know that she is not to be messed with in general, just in case. 

Tugging, and play with anyone else is a no-no for me, other than my son and wife.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

I guess I am more of the philosophy that people should get their own dog if they want a animal to pet. It makes me nervous having strangers pet my dog. Most people don't pet a dog properly. I just tell them no he's in training and keep walking.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Ben Thompson said:


> I guess I am more of the philosophy that people should get their own dog if they want a animal to pet. It makes me nervous having strangers pet my dog. Most people don't pet a dog properly. I just tell them no he's in training and keep walking.


I'm with you Ben!!! You don't need to touch my woman, my kid, my car or my dog. If a stranger asked to drive your car or pet your wife would you let them? 


I really don't understand people that WANT to pet strangers dogs either.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> I'm with you Ben!!! You don't need to touch my woman, my kid, my car or my dog. If a stranger asked to drive your car or pet your wife would you let them?
> 
> 
> I really don't understand people that WANT to pet strangers dogs either.




It's the need to cuddle :-o. Go to any pet fair and see how desperate some people are for it. :lol:


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> I'm with you Ben!!! You don't need to touch my woman, my kid, my car or my dog. If a stranger asked to drive your car or pet your wife would you let them?
> 
> 
> I really don't understand people that WANT to pet strangers dogs either.


that is an interesting question in itself.

I just petted my neighbors bulldog that got loose from him and came up and rolled over at my feet 

I really cant remember ever being out in public and feeling the desire to pet a strangers dog, a few pups here and there sure, if people walk them up to me.

I do like to pet dogs that I am training with, and neighbors and relatives dogs, that I will be spending time with, or might have to deal with, but stranger's dogs? not much.

I did go to a barbecue at someones house I did not know, and they had a nice rottie that was walking around working the crowd, and he came up to me, so I pet him too....so I guess that was a strangers dog, but hey, he came up to me an put his head on my leg...


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> that is an interesting question in itself.
> 
> I just petted my neighbors bulldog that got loose from him and came up and rolled over at my feet
> 
> ...



I'm dog sitting for two weeks a Chi dog and a hamster for three of my grankids. I do pet them both but get this urge to shove a trebble hook up their asses and go bass fishing. :-o :-# :-$ [-X


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> I'm dog sitting for two weeks a Chi dog and a hamster for three of my grankids. I do pet them both but get this urge to shove a trebble hook up their asses and go bass fishing. :-o :-# :-$ [-X


you pet the hamster? this hamster we have will chew your finger off I think  kid has big leather glove, and it has bitten through it.

kid got ripped, wanted a cool hamster, got a fat, lazy, vicious rodent. doesnt run in his wheel, you put him in his little ball and the ball never moves... I have been tempted to put in the room with the kittens, maybe it would move then.. The dog would enjoy it too I guess, but dont want her to choke on plastic shards...


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> kid got ripped, wanted a cool hamster, got a fat, lazy, vicious rodent. doesnt run in his wheel, you put him in his little ball and the ball never moves...


It will if you kick it.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Nicole Stark said:


> It will if you kick it.


I am sure, 

he is nothing at all like all those gerbils I used to have :-o


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Confession - I have a weird phobia of rodents.

And to think that as a child I had those gross suckers too. It's really no wonder I neglected them. I think it was just my subconscious telling me that I secretly hated them. Ok well, maybe I didn't at the time but I sure do now. You want to see me freak the heck out and get all squealy and freakishly flail about, pull one of those damned things out. It's involuntary. I can't seem to help it.

I'm sure it's the result of an accumulation of terrible things I've seen rodents do over the years. Man, I shit you not a tank full of feeders went to war or something one night and when I opened the store the next morning half of those suckers had perished in some sort of terrible event. I knew what it was once I looked closer and saw a few of them eating on another ones guts. I wanted to dump that tank onto the floor and stomp on every one that was still living.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Geez Nicole you really know how to wreck the moment, from beautiful beach babes and coco locos to stomping a tank full of rodents to death for gnawing on the intestines of their littermates.

Lee i told ya a women on this thread would ruin it.

My image of heaven on earth shattered and rotting in a pile of canibalised rat guts.


Thanks Nicole.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Ok that was dumb, i just posted an answer to another thread.

Nicole yr still a disturbed individual.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Nicole Stark said:


> Confession - I have a weird phobia of rodents.
> 
> And to think that as a child I had those gross suckers too. It's really no wonder I neglected them. I think it was just my subconscious telling me that I secretly hated them. Ok well, maybe I didn't at the time but I sure do now. You want to see me freak the heck out and get all squealy and freakishly flail about, pull one of those damned things out. It's involuntary. I can't seem to help it.
> 
> I'm sure it's the result of an accumulation of terrible things I've seen rodents do over the years. Man, I shit you not a tank full of feeders went to war or something one night and when I opened the store the next morning half of those suckers had perished in some sort of terrible event. I knew what it was once I looked closer and saw a few of them eating on another ones guts. I wanted to dump that tank onto the floor and stomp on every one that was still living.


I bred rats for quite a few years and even if not overpopulated some of the adolescents would slaughter the younger ones
also had a civil war once. I know exactly what you saw.

I have also seen a couple beavers trying to kill eachother a couple times


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

What can I say Pete? I'm a Gemini (read: born weird). 

And of course, I blame Joby for his magical ways of conjuring up discussions that wouldn't have happened without his magic Jobersourcery. Damn it to hell!

Hey Pete keep your threads straight. Someone might get the idea you don't follow along so well. I mean being disturbed is one thing, but whatever that is that you just did? Well that was a little like a time warp.

Oh and Joby this wouldn't be those sister beavers you petted on for a while would it?


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Nicole Stark said:


> Hey Pete keep your threads straight. Someone might get the idea you don't follow along so well.
> 
> 
> Insert red face icon.
> ...


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Nicole Stark said:
> 
> 
> > Hey Pete keep your threads straight. Someone might get the idea you don't follow along so well.
> ...


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> you pet the hamster? this hamster we have will chew your finger off I think  kid has big leather glove, and it has bitten through it.
> 
> kid got ripped, wanted a cool hamster, got a fat, lazy, vicious rodent. doesnt run in his wheel, you put him in his little ball and the ball never moves... I have been tempted to put in the room with the kittens, maybe it would move then.. The dog would enjoy it too I guess, but dont want her to choke on plastic shards...



I know most of them can be monsters but this one is super cool. The grandaughter has put a lot of work into handling it to keep it nice. She's had it over a year. I don't have the heart to tell her they only last a couple of yrs at best.
When she got it I tried to convince her mom (my daughter) that rats make the best rodent pets. That didn't go over well. :lol:


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> I know most of them can be monsters but this one is super cool. The grandaughter has put a lot of work into handling it to keep it nice. She's had it over a year. I don't have the heart to tell her they only last a couple of yrs at best.
> When she got it I tried to convince her mom (my daughter) that rats make the best rodent pets. That didn't go over well. :lol:


rats are cool, ferrets are cooler...but that is a much bigger type of responsibility there...

a friend of mine has 2 chinchilas, one is names Chalupi....lol...they like to wrestle around and "fight" eachother when you let them out...


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I had a lot of most everything as a kid and rats were definitely at the top. 
My kids mostly had snakes. Rodents of any sort wouldn't go well with all the terriers they grew up with. :lol:

I do recall one obedience class where the instructor walked a ferret on a leash in front of the downed dogs. 
She got about 2 dogs away from my Kerry Blue, Rocky and decided to end the distraction after my warning. He never broke and I doubt he would but he was shaking and moaning so bad I thought he was gonna shit himself if that critter got any closer. He was hell on fur of any sort.


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