# Do Europe & U.S. train differently (prey and civil/defense)?



## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

What Ive been seeing is that in the US, it seems like the old school was more about bringing in the civil side of things sooner, but the modern way is to keep it prey for much longer. I saw this clearly at the Reaver seminar, and in training with the police K9 team (which are actually pretty squared away), and my PSA group. 

One example was with the PD, after he slipped the jacket thhe wanted the dog to key up on the decoy, in the group they want the dog to carry the coat off and said they would want to keep it focused on prey and not switch him over for a little while longer. The idea being he will go farther overall if the civil stuff is delayed. (Another ring competitor told me the same thing)


How do europeans view this?


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

Matt,

The thing you need to focus on is that there is no generalized
"European" view of dogs or the dog sports.

In America we all speak English, and there is a lot of interest
in sports or training beyond what a person is engaged in, many
of us at one point made a choice. Internet lists such as this one
provide a common way to exchange ideas, good and bad.

But Europe is much different. True, increasing numbers of
Europeans speak English, but there are still lots of Dutchmen
with very limited skills in any other language, lots of people
in Belgium who only speak Dutch or French and many French
people do not communicate in English, although sometimes they
know more than they let on and choose not to.

The hare core KNPV trainer lives in an entirely different world
and had entirely different values from some of the more social
and prey oriented IPO training, even in Holland.

Europe is much more than America made up of traditional
communities speaking their own national language and training
in clubs that in many instances go back fifty, seventy five or
a hundred years. Those not interested in making money off of
gullible Americans often have very little interest in what is going
on beyond the end of their own training fields.

So there is no real answer to what Europeans think about dog
training methods, you need to identify a specific group and
culture.


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

Maybe it would be easier to ask how much, if any, they have in common with guys in the US that are the trainers everyone looks to, guys like Ellis, Ivan B, etc


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Every sport has its famous handlers but thing is that over here there are a lot of clubs and many experienced handlers.
"Trainers" like in the US (I mean guys that people go to and pay them to teach them how to train a dog), don't exist over here as the handlers are experienced enough and don't need that.

New handlers learn the skills from their more experienced club members. It's not about money, it's a sport and people help each other.
Not much talking and "philosophy" either over here. Very little theory and much more practice oriented.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Yes its like what Martine deskribes over her to. 
We have dog clubs within the FCI that we pay 50 $ every year and for that we can go to the clubs and use ther grounds talkt to peopel and find peopel to train with. 
If you want to do IPO you find a club that does IPO and se If you can get on that club, Ob, Tracking and so on.

In my city we have 5 clubs like this with around 200-400 members at every club, and the traning is open for anyone that are a member. I can be a member at one of thos 5 clubs and still train with peopel on any of the 4 other. Then ofcaus ther are beginer clases to that cost some money but when you know some peopel you just train with them. A clas at a clubb is somting like 150 $ for 8 times X 2-3 h.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

andreas broqvist said:


> Yes its like what Martine deskribes over her to.
> We have dog clubs within the FCI that we pay 50 $ every year and for that we can go to the clubs and use ther grounds talkt to peopel and find peopel to train with.
> If you want to do IPO you find a club that does IPO and se If you can get on that club, Ob, Tracking and so on.
> 
> In my city we have 5 clubs like this *with around 200-400 members* at every club, and the traning is open for anyone that are a member. I can be a member at one of thos 5 clubs and still train with peopel on any of the 4 other. Then ofcaus ther are beginer clases to that cost some money but when you know some peopel you just train with them. A clas at a clubb is somting like 150 $ for 8 times X 2-3 h.


In clubs for ring training the number of members is vey limited as we work as a team. All members are on the field from the beginning until the end and help each other with every dog. It's not like you come over with your dog, train and leave again.
Most clubs have approx 10 working members. There are no classes, just the training hours and theneverybody is there.

For other disciplines (f.i. obedience) there are clubs with many members and different classes, but not for Belgian Ring


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Yes its the same. The clubs have 200-400 members. For everyting. OB, trecking, agilety and so on. The protection groubs is like you say to. ruffly 4-12 members.


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## Rachel Schumacher (Oct 11, 2006)

Martine Loots said:


> "Trainers" like in the US (I mean guys that people go to and pay them to teach them how to train a dog), don't exist over here as the handlers are experienced enough and don't need that.
> New handlers learn the skills from their more experienced club members. It's not about money, it's a sport and people help each other.


This is not the case in Switzerland tho. Most clubs have crap head trainers. The good ones started their own business a while ago. Hence the need paying for good training. I pay a small fortune for my three dogs and travel quite a distance to get some great training.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Martine Loots said:


> Every sport has its famous handlers but thing is that over here there are a lot of clubs and many experienced handlers.
> "Trainers" like in the US (I mean guys that people go to and pay them to teach them how to train a dog), don't exist over here as the handlers are experienced enough and don't need that.
> 
> New handlers learn the skills from their more experienced club members. It's not about money, it's a sport and people help each other.
> Not much talking and "philosophy" either over here. Very little theory and much more practice oriented.


So within the NVBK clubs would it be common for some of the better known trainers like yourselfs, Bart Bellon, Francis Geets etc to be asked to go to other clubs and teach them some of their techniques? Maybe like a paid seminar? I know Bart is doing it around the world for IPO etc, but would the same occour in the NVBK?
I know that its almost unheard of for the better KNPV trainers such as Hans Pegge, Hennie Bolster or Appie Kamps to do this.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Christopher Jones said:


> *So within the NVBK clubs would it be common for some of the better known trainers like yourselfs, Bart Bellon, Francis Geets etc to be asked to go to other clubs and teach them some of their techniques? Maybe like a paid seminar?* I know Bart is doing it around the world for IPO etc, but would the same occour in the NVBK?
> I know that its almost unheard of for the better KNPV trainers such as Hans Pegge, Hennie Bolster or Appie Kamps to do this.


No, this is not done. There are enough experienced people in almost every club, so it isn't necessary. And if necessary, the information or training techniques are shared for free. NVBK is a hobby, not a profession :wink:


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Martine Loots said:


> No, this is not done. There are enough experienced people in almost every club, so it isn't necessary. And if necessary, the information or training techniques are shared for free. NVBK is a hobby, not a profession :wink:


I wonder why Belgians are so free with there time at home, but have no problem charging when they cross a little saltwater?

Christopher and Martine, have either of you been to dog clubs in the US? And Martine, do you handle dogs in trials? I have often seen videos and results of your husband but I have never seen you.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Rachel Schumacher said:


> This is not the case in Switzerland tho. Most clubs have crap head trainers. The good ones started their own business a while ago. Hence the need paying for good training. I pay a small fortune for my three dogs and travel quite a distance to get some great training.


That's not the situation for Switzerland as a whole Rachel! Maybe where you are and you haven't visited many clubs?

Switzerland, although small, has the most varied dog trials out in Europe, be they national or international, ranging from Avalanche, Catastrophy Searching, Searching, SAR, National Schutzhund and Begleithund in 1-3 levels, Water trials, national and international, junior dog sports for the youth, Agility, Obedience and, and, and. Not to forget Mondio, of course.
As for "*crap head trainers*" I can only cringe when hearing this. The Swiss IPO team has training days where you can go and be coached with them. They are some of the best trainers and give up a lot of their free time in their clubs. Also there are extremely good trainers in the clubs and we have some very good judges and international judges (some in our own club) who help us.

Mondio has some of the finest trainers around and they are no means all commercial. Maybe they won't take all and sundry, I don't know but it's like in Football, you have to prove that you are willing to give it all you've got and they'll see that you succeed.

Where do you think Swiss teams train for IPO and Mondio? In our clubs, be it SC (GSD), Malinois, Rottweiler, Dobermann, etc. (the latter do tend to lack in numbers in International comparison, I admit) but it's the same in Germany and I've trained there, too.

Just had to put that straight - it's a tiny country but with a reputation that is not to be ignored!!!!


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## Rachel Schumacher (Oct 11, 2006)

Gillian do you know the Swiss IPO team? Do you know with whom they really train? While Migg is a member of your club he does his main training in a private group. Ditto Anja. As for Mondiioring there are a few clubs, you're right. Just that I pay more or less the equal amount for club training than for private training. Tom has his own training cente BTW. Since I also train agility and obedience I steer clear of any Swiss club. I prefer driving to Thun or actually join a club in Alsace.
Feel free to PM me these clubs that are so great. You are one of the few ones to glorify Swiss dog clubs. There are a few good ones, you're right. But the majority sucks.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> I wonder why Belgians are so free with there time at home, but have no problem charging when they cross a little saltwater?
> 
> Christopher and Martine, have either of you been to dog clubs in the US? And Martine, do you handle dogs in trials?* I have often seen videos and results of your husband but I have never seen you*.


Maybe you should look a bit better then :wink:

I' ve been training dogs for many years now and handled my dogs at National Championship level.

In the nineties I had Xastar who was a top competitor with Championship selection every year and always ended top 5

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goNHEEzkGZk

Until last season I competed with Fils also titled cat1 and Championship selection every year. Unfortunately he got injured and had to take him out of competition last year

http://video.google.nl/videoplay?docid=8850376845184877521#

http://video.google.com/videoplay?d...1&start=10&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0#

But yes, it's me who's usually filming and this means I hardly have videos of my own dogs :lol:


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> I wonder why Belgians are so free with there time at home, but have no problem charging when they cross a little saltwater?


I still have to sell my first dog to the US and this is NOT because we haven't had the opportunity...

Making money out of dogs doesn't interest me. For me training and having dogs is fun, not money.
We get mails every day asking for pups, so if we wanted we could easily do it.

However we have helped people more then once to get GOOD dogs from Belgium at very reasonable prices (without any profit for us). Some of them are on this board and can testify.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Martine Loots said:


> I still have to sell my first dog to the US and this is NOT because we haven't had the opportunity...
> 
> Making money out of dogs doesn't interest me. For me training and having dogs is fun, not money.
> We get mails every day asking for pups, so if we wanted we could easily do it.
> ...


Martine, we gaan het cultuurverschil met de US nooit overbruggen. Zij snappen ons "hondencultuurtje" nu een maal slecht. Hier is niet alles met geld te koop.....

Dick en Selena


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Inderdaad  Ben zo blij dat wij hier wonen...


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Rachel Schumacher said:


> Gillian do you know the Swiss IPO team? Do you know with whom they really train? While Migg is a member of your club he does his main training in a private group. Ditto Anja. As for Mondiioring there are a few clubs, you're right. Just that I pay more or less the equal amount for club training than for private training. Tom has his own training cente BTW. Since I also train agility and obedience I steer clear of any Swiss club. I prefer driving to Thun or actually join a club in Alsace.
> Feel free to PM me these clubs that are so great. You are one of the few ones to glorify Swiss dog clubs. There are a few good ones, you're right. But the majority sucks.


Rachel, you're entitled to your opinion and yes, over the years I've known members of the WUSV and FCI Worlds' Team and still know them.

Thun is in Switzerland BTW and I'm well aware that the teams representing Switzerland at Worlds train with foreign clubs as well. 

"Glorifying" the clubs is not what I'm doing but, in the few hundred clubs that we have, it would be rather a sweeping statement to say that they nearly all suck! I'm not alone in this sentiment by any means. We have quite a lot of contact with the clubs all over Switzerland in an administrative manner, and whilst they are not all good, there are more good than bad ones.


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

Martine - 

Excellent posts!!

How refreshing it is to hear about how dog sport is meant to be.

Tracey


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Martine, we gaan het cultuurverschil met de US nooit overbruggen. Zij snappen ons "hondencultuurtje" nu een maal slecht. Hier is niet alles met geld te koop.....
> 
> Dick en Selena


Selena u de twee landen correct bent zal nooit wegens stomme en gulzige mensen verbinden. Wij zijn allen niet over geld niettemin zo gelieve zorgvuldiger te zijn met het gebruiken van de V.S. als geheel. I voor één zorg zeer over het Nederlandse ras en verkoop daar hier een misschien hond en. Ras misschien eens geregeld altijd voor mij eerst en toen iedereen anders daarna.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Martine Loots said:


> Inderdaad  Ben zo blij dat wij hier wonen...


Niet elk waar in de V.S. slecht is en er zijn sommige goede plaatsen om te leven. :-o


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Yes over all Holland and Belgium are a much nicer place to live if you are serious about dogs. Maybe someday when I retire I can move to one of these places and just play with nothing but dogs and be happy with out all the other BS that gos along with dogs here in the USA.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

The whole culture about training dogs is different, and from Martine's replies she thinks pretty similar as we do. And no, not all outside Belgium/ the Netherlands is wrong, only a very different approach/way of thinking.

And, I don't know who made the comment, about the $$$ if there is salt water between selling dogs/seminars etc: my puppies cost the same for dutch as for foreigners (and that is a lot cheaper than US breeders ask ;-), shipping/picking up is the greatest deal).


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Gotcha Selena, sent you a pm


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> I wonder why Belgians are so free with there time at home, but have *no problem charging* when they cross a little saltwater?
> 
> Christopher and Martine, have either of you been to dog clubs in the US? *And Martine, do you handle dogs in trials? I have often seen videos and results of your husband but I have never seen you*.


I must say that a big difference I have noticed between the US and Europe (talking for Belgium NVBK here) is that the attitude on US forums is a lot more hostile (I’m talking about SOME members, certainly not all of them).

No matter what information you share, right away there are offensive or sarcastic reactions. 
People start accusing you without knowing what they are talking about and without even knowing you or they insinuate that you don’t have experience.
If someone says “have YOU ever competed in trials” or “it’s all about money” then I feel offended and I perfectly understand Selena did too.

Of course everybody is entitled to have his own philosophy about sport, training, breeding and whether you want to make money out of it or not.

To make things clear, here’s MY point of view and I’d appreciate not to get any false accusations anymore:

Breeding:

I’m very interested in analyzing bloodlines and good combinations. At home we have a filing system full of copies of original pedigrees, going back many years ago.
I’m digitalizing them in a computer pedigree database and it’s something I like doing very much.
But I don’t want to be a breeder, because of emotional reasons. I’m very attached to my dogs and I know I’d have problems if one of my pups wouldn’t have a good home.

Sport:

That’s what it’s all about for us. We both like training dogs and that’s why we have our males. They are not for sale. We are no dog brokers and not interested in becoming so either.
If I have a dog that doesn’t meet my expectations, then he can’t stay. But then I find him a good home and place him there (but he stays my dog and they aren’t allowed to sell him). I never sell a dog because then his faith isn’t in my hands anymore and I don’t want that. This is something I owe my dogs and I’m happy with it.

Dog training is a HOBBY for us, not a profession.
We want to train when we want and with whom we like and this isn’t possible if it’s a job in stead of a hobby.
If someone is very motivated and has a good dog, then he’s always welcome to join the training and he won’t have to pay for it.
On a weekly basis we also train together with another club. They are very experienced trainers too and we share experiences and look for solutions if there is a problem with no matter which dog. Simple as that.

Anyway, that’s the way it goes in the NVBK. It may be different for IPO because those clubs have much more members.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

To make a fair comparison between US and Europe one would have to visit clubs on both sides of the pond and not just make comparisons based on the forums.

Forums are very useful and enjoyable places to visit but will never replace the club, it's longstanding experienced members, the help given to each other, etc. 

Someone used the word "hostility" (happens I know) on the forums but I find some people to be arrogant beyond words. Knocking other people's video efforts and not even bothering to give constructive advice. On the training field here, if someone made such comments the instructor in charge of the group would make short work of him or her.

I remember Ronny van den Bergh telling us that the reason they had such good handlers in his club was because each helped the other to become good. 

Agility and Obedience have the most members. IPO, National Schutzhund (not so popular any more) tend to split up into groups within the clubs and learn from each other. Good instructors insist on one dog working, the other handlers watching and learning. 

There aren't so many keyboard experts in my part of Europe and analyzing a dog's work is done on the field and not on videos. Videos are mainly used for the handler to see for himself what mistakes he's making.

Martine, I enjoyed your post - with more breeders like you, we'd have less problems.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Nice post Martine. It brought up a conversation that was had on Leerburgs forum between Ed and our very own Selena a few years ago.
It was about KNPV and Ed had come out and said that all KNPV dogs are trained in prey only. Selena offered her opinion that this wasnt infact correct. Ed jumped on her calling her out about what experience did she have and who the hell did she think she was to argue with him. Well Selena listed her history which included a father who was in KNPV champs with the greatest KNPV producer in history, mother did this, father army dog trainer, husband Dutch Police dog handler etc etc. Ed never came back to reply.
I laughed for days on that one.



Martine Loots said:


> I must say that a big difference I have noticed between the US and Europe (talking for Belgium NVBK here) is that the attitude on US forums is a lot more hostile (I’m talking about SOME members, certainly not all of them).
> 
> No matter what information you share, right away there are offensive or sarcastic reactions.
> People start accusing you without knowing what they are talking about and without even knowing you or they insinuate that you don’t have experience.
> ...


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

I agree with what you are saying Selena & Martine, People are very funny about prey dogs. What people don't relize or maybe they do I just get the perception that they don't. Is for awhile now alot not all police and federal agencies are buying there dogs from Belgium and Holland. So if such a big problem then why do we buy so many dogs from these two countries. Not to mention alot of these dogs are and have been showing up in our USA sport programs. Obviously Holland and Belgium have what we want and what we need so there is no reason for critique on there dogs. Simply enough if you have a problem then don't buy them, but do accept they have the best and we don't, enough said. Not meant to be demeaning just stating the known facts people.

Just to clarify on my behalf so people don't get there panties in a bunch, yes there is alot of nice breedings going on but just remeber where most these parents originated from!!!!!!!!!!

As far as hostile gos its sad but true, because people have forgot to be humble many years ago to. JMO


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Martine Loots said:


> I still have to sell my first dog to the US and this is NOT because we haven't had the opportunity...
> 
> Making money out of dogs doesn't interest me. For me training and having dogs is fun, not money.
> We get mails every day asking for pups, so if we wanted we could easily do it.
> ...



I never asked you about selling dogs, my comment was about selling time. And contrary to what you originally wrote*, many Europeans can and do charge for their time.

You then went on to insinuate that the reason we have trainers in the US that are paid is because the handlers are not "experienced enough". This is insulting and untrue. Maybe people pay because they feel that one can never have too much knowledge. Are you really saying that Belgians hit a certain point where they are so experanced that they no longer seek knowledge? Do Belgians already know everything there is to know about dog training? If someone outside of Belgium had some knowledge that you didn't, you wouldn't pay to have them come and teach you?:-?

Most of the people that I know that are traveling giving seminars are doing far more good for dog sport, traveling and charging, than they would staying local, not charging and having a non dog related normal job. Take Mike Ellis for instance. If he didn't charge for seminars that would preclude him from doing the seminar at all. For a him to do a weekend seminar really takes him four or five days due to prep and down time after working the seminar. How could he have a normal job? It's only about the money because he has this bad habit of eating everyday and having a roof over his head.* THAT YANKEE BASTARD!!!!*:twisted:

I asked you if you have ever trained here in the US and you failed to answer that question. How can you speak on the experance of US handlers if you have never trained here? My sole source of information about you comes from the internet. Do you think my impressions were fair or accurate? Why do to other what you don't like being done to you?

Here's the way I see it. The same stuff is going on everywhere; good and bad. Most who spout of with sweeping generalizations about what people do in a certain country are blowing smoke or simply don't know. 

Matt orginal question was, do Americans and Europeans train differently. Yes they do Matt. But everyone everywhere is training differently. My training group trains completly differently than training groups that share the same field. Yet I trained with club in Germany that trained almost excactly the same as my group. A little saltwater does not make the difference. It's the people that make the difference.


***


> Trainers" like in the US (I mean guys that people go to and pay them to teach them how to train a dog), don't exist over her....


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

When I read the original question my first thought was that it was an incrediably difficult question . I know very little about European trainers but I have seen alot of trainers here in the U.S. and they are all different . With the vast differences in training here how can you even begin to compare them to trainers in Europe . 

I know this question asks for generalizations but in this case we are asked to generalize something that has too many differences here to begin with . JMO.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> I never asked you about selling dogs, my comment was about selling time. And contrary to what you originally wrote*, many Europeans can and do charge for their time.
> 
> You then went on to insinuate that the reason we have trainers in the US that are paid is because the handlers are not "experienced enough". This is insulting and untrue. Maybe people pay because they feel that one can never have too much knowledge. Are you really saying that Belgians hit a certain point where they are so experanced that they no longer seek knowledge? Do Belgians already know everything there is to know about dog training? If someone outside of Belgium had some knowledge that you didn't, you wouldn't pay to have them come and teach you?:-?
> 
> ...


*

Please "friend",

Stay over at your side of the ocean and please do not ever try to get/buy a different trained dog by those arogant Dutch/Belgians who do not want to share their knowledge for free to those smart, all knowing Americans. 
Sometimes to share knowledge/wanting to share knowledge is "paarlen voor de zwijnen". (Is a Dutch saying.....).

Dick*


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Please "friend",
> 
> Stay over at your side of the ocean and please do not ever try to get/buy a different trained dog by those arogant Dutch/Belgians who do not want to share their knowledge for free to those smart, all knowing Americans.
> Sometimes to share knowledge/wanting to share knowledge is "paarlen voor de zwijnen". (Is a Dutch saying.....).
> ...


LOL:lol:=D>


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

By the way, I'm very glad to have met people like Tim Martens, Tim Stacy and Kristin so i'm not risking to get in the habit to generalice..... I sure do not want to do nice, respectfull people, like them, short. Glad to have met them.....

Dick


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## Adi Ibrahimbegovic (Nov 21, 2008)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Please "friend",
> 
> Sometimes to share knowledge/wanting to share knowledge is "paarlen voor de zwijnen". (Is a Dutch saying.....).
> 
> Dick


It's Latin... Just saying.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Adi Ibrahimbegovic said:


> It's Latin... Just saying.


Maybe it is a Latin quote but a Dutch saying ??


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## Adi Ibrahimbegovic (Nov 21, 2008)

Many nations/cultures use it/say it, especialy in Europe, but the origin is and it comes from old Rome, Latin.

Boy, what a fountain of useless knowledge I am, I guess Alex Trebek would like me.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

didn't knew that :idea:


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## Adi Ibrahimbegovic (Nov 21, 2008)

Well... it seems I didn't fully know it either according to this link: 

http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/pearls-before-swine.html

it appears it's used in biblical context, then France and England in the middle ages and so on...etc... etc... cool saying nevertheless.

we can go back to the discussion.

what the original poster doesn't realize "Europe" is a continent with many cultures, languages, traditions and so on.

many countries in europe and way smaller than many states in USA and if you drive your car for a 3 or 4 hours, which is like from houston to dallas in texas, you can pass 3 or 4 border posts, where people LOOK different, talk different language, dress different, have different national foods, style of architecture is different, history is different and so on...

so, yes, it is different than here, because there is so much more diversity. dutch and belgian people and gillian from schwitz have you their versions, there is many more.


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

To be honest i think in the US people talk way too much about things that in my mind are not important.
I can not remember we ever talked about drives or toys or the use of force etc.We just went out there and worked the dogs.Yes in Holland and Belgium people are lucky enough maybe to be able to learn from the best for free, but nothing is free.
You realize early that people are willing to help you *if *you are willing to be dedicated and willing to learn.
There are also people who change clubs every few months or so but they hardly ever get things done.
Like i said before,my guru in holland used to say;give me a sound dog with the courage to go out and bite that guy with the stick and the horrible yell and i will teach him the rest.


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## Fathi Shahin (Apr 2, 2010)

Hi, no disrepect to anyone or nationality.

In Australia and America i'm guessing we train with 'Dutch Shepherds'
'Belgium Malinois' and 'German Shepherds' these dogs are not American shepherds nor are they Australian shepherds. 

So i think we should respect that they do no more about these breeds and how to train them then what we do in our respective countries. They have been working and living with these breeds for along time.

I was having a discution especially with *Martine and Selena* about breeding and picking a pup in another thread. I was curious as to how they pick and look at pups and the difference in how i would do it.After reading there post and them answering my questions as i did not agree at first now i will definetly take there advice with the next choosing of my pup and how i look at them.

The Europeans are obviously doing it right and have been getting it right for along time that is why when i was looking for a dog to import i did not look in the US but to the source in Europe as most people dowhen looking at training such dogs. 

Just like Americans would now more about American pitbulls than what Australians or Europeans would and and so fourth.

Again no disrespect to any nationality it's just the way it is. 

When it comes to training i think they the Europeans are more advanced and that is why we go to there seminars.....and train with there dogs !!

8-[


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

jack van strien said:


> You realize early that people are willing to help you *if *you are willing to be dedicated and willing to learn.
> There are also people who change clubs every few months or so but they hardly ever get things done.
> Like i said before,my guru in holland used to say;give me a sound dog with the courage to go out and bite that guy with the stick and the horrible yell and i will teach him the rest.


Thats very, very true, Jack. Thats the way it is.

Dick


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Thats very, very true, Jack. Thats the way it is.
> 
> Dick


I second that completely !!


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> I never asked you about selling dogs, my comment was about selling time. And contrary to what you originally wrote*,* many Europeans can and do charge for their time*.


I was talking about *Belgium *and about *my *sport (Belgian Ring) and it certainly isn't the fact there.



Christopher Smith said:


> *Are you really saying that Belgians hit a certain point where they are so experanced that they no longer seek knowledge?* Do Belgians already know everything there is to know about dog training? If someone outside of Belgium had some knowledge that you didn't, you wouldn't pay to have them come and teach you?:-?


Not at all. You never stop learning new things, no matter how many years of experience you have, but we don't have to pay for it. 
We train together and exchange knowledge for free. We can go to no matter which NVBK club and train there for free and this is the same for everybody.
Also with other disciplines. Some of our friends are very good IPO trainers and we like watching them train from time to time, but I don't remember Bert Aerts or Roger Snollaert ever asking money. 



Christopher Smith said:


> Most of the people that I know that are traveling giving seminars are doing far more good for dog sport, traveling and charging, than they would staying local, not charging and having a non dog related normal job. Take Mike Ellis for instance. If he didn't charge for seminars that would preclude him from doing the seminar at all. For a him to do a weekend seminar really takes him four or five days due to prep and down time after working the seminar.


I'm not saying that it's wrong to ask money for a seminar, but we were talking about TRAINING, not about seminars.
Bart Bellon is a good friend of ours and he also gives seminars all over the world. That's his job and of course he gets paid for it. But he never charges us a penny when we train together.




Christopher Smith said:


> I asked you if you have ever trained here in the US and you failed to answer that question. How can you speak on the experance of US handlers if you have never trained here? My sole source of information about you comes from the internet. Do you think my impressions were fair or accurate? Why do to other what you don't like being done to you?


I know enough people in the US and Europeans who give seminars there, to know pretty well how it works over there. 
Good trainers from the US and other European countries regularly come over to Belgium to train with us too and they don't have to pay either.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Martine Loots said:


> Some of our friends are very good IPO trainers and we like watching them train from time to time, but I don't remember Bert Aerts or Roger Snollaert ever asking money.


So we are back to a question that you failed to answer. Why do they charge when the cross a little saltwater?





> I'm not saying that it's wrong to ask money for a seminar, but we were talking about TRAINING, not about seminars.


I live in American and I have never paid for training. Never.




> I know enough people in the US and Europeans who give seminars there, to know pretty well how it works over there.


Since everyone seems to enjoy native sayings I have one for you. "You will never fully understand a man until you walk a mile in his shoes."






> Good trainers from the US and other European countries regularly come over to Belgium to train with us too and they don't have to pay either.


What about the not so good trainers? Do they have to pay?


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

My original question just had to do with training style, since the general trend for the US seems to have gone from a prey and defense/civil school of thought, to a purely prey and later bringing in the defense/civil, I wondered if the europeans do something similar.


I figured there has to be someone here familiar with both how the best americans and best europeans train. I guess it has to do more with raising a young dog, Ive been present when a duch police LT and KNPV guy was here in the US working with imported knpv dogs, but didnt get to go into raising young dogs with him


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Matt Grosch said:


> My original question just had to do with training style, since the general trend for , I wondered if the europeans do something similar.
> 
> 
> I figured there has to be someone here familiar with both how the best americans and best europeans train. I guess it has to do more with raising a young dog, Ive been present when a duch police LT and KNPV guy was here in the US working with imported knpv dogs, but didnt get to go into raising young dogs with him


The answer is* it depends*. There is no overall this group trains this way or that group trains that way. Dogsport is full of individuals and they all train the way they want no matter what continent that they live on. But in my experience the people that are having the most success are training in very similar ways, even when they are doing differnt dogsports.

BTW I disagree that "the US seems to have gone from a prey and defense/civil school of thought, to a purely prey and later bringing in the defense/civil". I know that it might seem that way if you listen to keyboard trainers on the web, but those that are really training might show you something different.


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

I disagree, the top guys in the US are all on the same page from what I have seen.


National level schutz, PSA, and french ring (last one I think is but not positive), the main KNPV guy in the US, all have had the same mindset. Reaver (from what I gathered) and the (good) PD k9 guys I train with are a bit different to some degree and more old school.


So because it is pretty consistent here in the US, I wondered how europe compares


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Christopher,i believe the saying is,do not judge a man until you have walked a mile in his mocassins.(old native american proverb)
To get back to the original question,of course the europeans and the Americans train differently.
There are many reasons, culture,background oppertunity and a few more things.
For instance when is the last time you saw a Dutch person participating in an olympic skiing event?
When did you see a Thai person skating a marathon?
It has a lot to do with oppertunity and values of a society.
But reading all of the posts in this tread i realize there are only two kinds of dogtrainers,open minded ones and stiff headed ones.The opened minded ones usually are the better ones.
happy training.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Lance Collins was over here at one of our local clubs (before I joined) and my mates there talked a lot about him.

I spoke to one of our judges who is a member of our club and we got from last year's judging at WUSV Germany to Lance Collins as a trainer. The chap said Lance was an extremely good trainer and he could make a lot of Europeans "sit up"!

From what I've seen of some of the videos, on here, and elsewhere there are also some extremely good trainers on both sides - Greg Doud's obedience is only one of the highlights and Kadi Thingvall put up a video of one of her dogs at a trial (can't remember handler) where the team got 100 pts (I think) and they were judged by Elmar Mannes of Germany and he is a very competent trainer in Europe, intelligent, too 

As for the original question, I guess the good decoys work similarly. Visit Armin Winkler's website, he's originally from Germany, Bernhard Flinks, Armin Buschmann http://www.hunde-sport.org/index.html
Scroll to the bottom and click on Flag for English.

When $$$$$ enters the equation, sport flies out through the window. We pay over here, too for our seminars and they are not cheap apart from the one with Fritz Biehler which was run by an organisation consisting of all our county clubs.

If you feel the need to have top trainers flown in, then you probably have to pay for it all over the world. However, a good trainer who sees your dog regularly plus your own competence can get you further in the long run.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> So we are back to a question that you failed to answer. Why do they charge when the cross a little saltwater?


I suppose because they have been asked to come over and give a SEMINAR
If you come over here and join their thraining sessions they won't charge you.

In Belgium there hardly ever are seminars and for NVBK they don't exist




Christopher Smith said:


> What about the not so good trainers? Do they have to pay?


I already answered that...
If someone comes to our club and is motivated he can join the trainings and won't have to pay anything (no matter which country he comes from)


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Martine Loots said:


> I suppose because they have been asked to come over and give a SEMINAR
> If you come over here and join their thraining sessions they won't charge you.
> 
> In Belgium there hardly ever are seminars and for NVBK they don't exist
> ...


And you know what's funny...
Those Europeans sometimes charge even nothing when they are asked to give a seminar overseas and just get the trip and expences paid for.... 

Dick


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

jack van strien said:


> Christopher,i believe the saying is,do not judge a man until you have walked a mile in his mocassins.(old native american proverb)


I think the saying goes like this - 
"Before you judge someone you should walk a mile in their shoes. If after doing so you still dont like them, you will be a mile away and you will have their shoes"


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> And you know what's funny...
> Those Europeans sometimes charge even nothing when they are asked to give a seminar overseas and just get the trip and expences paid for....
> 
> Dick



Pretty much the same thing in the working terrier world. Room and board, plane fare and a couple of hunting trips!
I've hunted with a lot of Euros (m0stly Brits) that came over here to judge working terrier trials.
They've been doing it forever and I've learned a ton about earthwork from them.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> And you know what's funny...
> Those Europeans sometimes charge even nothing when they are asked to give a seminar overseas and just get the trip and expences paid for....
> 
> Dick


That's called free trade, like gun control and laxative it only works in one direction.

Come to Canada, we have cash :razz:


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

chris. why peopel charge when going over som saltwater. 
first of the cuntrys we are most focust on now are smal cuntrys and for my self i prefer a 1-2 h car ride over a 12 h flight 

then also if you help peopel prety close to you geograficly its a big schanse you can train often together and change experienses.

PLUS a stupid human thing, if you downt charge peopel that expect you to dom ore charge to litle they think you downt know what you are doing..


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> And you know what's funny...
> Those Europeans sometimes charge even nothing when they are asked to give a seminar overseas and just get the trip and expences paid for....
> 
> Dick





Id bet that Dick could see the US by just doing some traveling seminars (I got dibs on the south west), ever see the grand canyon, sedona, etc?


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> And you know what's funny...
> Those Europeans sometimes charge even nothing when they are asked to give a seminar overseas and just get the trip and expences paid for....
> 
> Dick


Indeed, that's the way we do it too.:grin:
Only thing is that I never travel without my dogs. They come with us everywhere. And I want them to be in our own van, so I'm sure they are comfortable.
I hate flying and I don't want my dogs in the cargo room (exaggerrated, I know...  ), so we only give demonstrations if we can get there by car.
We only charge the expenses (gasoil, hotel, food and drinks). We see it as a vacation and a means to get to know other people.


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> And you know what's funny...
> Those Europeans sometimes charge even nothing when they are asked to give a seminar overseas and just get the trip and expences paid for....
> 
> Dick


Hi Dick and Selena,

A couple years ago Rinus Bastiaansen, SV/FCI Judge, Belgium was brought over for a IPO trial. They (Rinus' helper Eric came too) came over a week early. And we trained alot. From morning until night :smile: If you tried to offer them money for training they were insulted. They trained for the love of dogs and training! We chatted a lot too. Mostly me asking about how things are in Belgium....I love learning. We had a lot of fun while they were here and I was sad to see them go. 

Rinus gave my Malinois Rico his first bites at 6 months old. Both were impressed with each other  Rico is the only Malinois to grace the picture page of Daelenberghutte (sp?) kennels :-D


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Matt Grosch said:


> I disagree, the top guys in the US are all on the same page from what I have seen.


OK I believe that's true of what you have seen. But you may see things differently when you see more and gain more experience.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

jack van strien said:


> Christopher,i believe the saying is,do not judge a man until you have walked a mile in his mocassins.(old native american proverb)


First the European knows what going on in the US because of what she reads on the internet and now this. I love how some Europeans think they know what Americans do and say better than an American. Amazing!!!!:lol:

Jack that might be what you read somewhere or something, but that's not what we say in real life.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

andreas broqvist said:


> chris. why peopel charge when going over som saltwater.
> first of the cuntrys we are most focust on now are smal cuntrys and for my self i prefer a 1-2 h car ride over a 12 h flight
> 
> then also if you help peopel prety close to you geograficly its a big schanse you can train often together and change experienses.
> ...


That make sense and mirrors my experience here in the US. 

Thanks for struging through the language barrier. But I have to point out that the word is spelled "countries" not "cuntrys". I only bring this up because I used to date a real "cuntry" and your spelling error reminds me too much of her. I went on vacation and she stole everything I owned. I have never forgiven that "cuntry"


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Chris,
i have spend over ten years on your side of the salt water and what is more amazing we have known the same woman!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

jack van strien said:


> Chris,
> i have spend over ten years on your side of the salt water and what is more amazing we have known the same woman!




:-o That's just cold hearted Jack! :lol: :lol:


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Bob,
Sorry i couldn't resist,something about kicking in an open door!
I will behave from now on!:-\"


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

:d:d:d:d:d


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> OK I believe that's true of what you have seen. But you may see things differently when you see more and gain more experience.






I dont know about that, when multiple top level guys from different sports all say that instead of doing things the old way, you keep it all prey ......how could that ever be seen differently? Its pretty straitforward


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

jack van strien said:


> Chris,
> i have spend over ten years on your side of the salt water and what is more amazing we have known the same woman!


Most people know their own mother.\\/


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Back on subject folks!


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

I think my orig post might have been the only one that was on the orig subject, all downhill from there


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Matt Grosch said:


> I think my orig post might have been the only one that was on the orig subject, all downhill from there



The question is, what are you looking for? What do you want?


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

just to satisfy my curiosity


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Matt Grosch said:


> I think my orig post might have been the only one that was on the orig subject, all downhill from there


You should read the thread again.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Who took over Smiths computer ??


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