# Alert barking at my son...Bye bye...



## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

I've decided to post (and maybe gain more insight) because ultimately, my handling skills, ability to appropriately read/correct dog behaviour, and live with my dog Cato all came together over 2 isolated events involving alert barking (dominant posture tail up, ears forward, barking as if at a stranger) at my son, 4 (whom Cato was supervised with and got along with very well).

After the 2nd occasion of alert barking/lunge I opted to call Jason Sidener and return Cato to him. (thankfully, Jason is one of those breeders with some integrity--followed thru with the agreement from the beginning--dog to be returned to him if any problems) I had gone with a full working quality, even though my original desire was a pet quality out of that litter (were none).

My instinct told me on the first occasion with the alert bark that *something* was up...Cato's sharpness directed at my son entering the house was immediately, to me, a red flag. Why would he "go off" on my son, who was in clear view? Enough of a question in my mind, but I did platz the dog, he did comply and life went on...

...until the 2nd occasion when Cato was coming into the house, my son sitting in a chair across the room. Cato went off, and lunged. I instinctively told the dog to sit, which he did not and then DD collar was "activated" and then he was fine.

I questioned MY ability to handle this new behaviour from my dog. I questioned my instant actions, (ie: telling dog to sit instead of correcting the [email protected]$ out of him) as in Cato's mind, he was likely corrected for not sitting... 

It felt to me like I had to draw a line, if it were just me, I'd still have Cato, but since my son was involved, I felt there was no room for error in correcting this behaviour and did not trust my ability to make it right.

Suggestions on how one might handle an issue like this with a family member? 

I also want to add, that it did cross my mind that if I corrected Cato for this behavior, and that if it wasn't timed *perfectly* that I could potentially correct for the warning...and then what...? Again, my inexperience talking, but have read about that (correcting inaccurately and "squelching" warning)


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

You did absolutely the right thing!
As far as handling this issue with family members, I think some dogs/lines of dogs are just not meant to be with small kids. Even with excellent training you'd be constantly looking over your shoulder. It's just not worth the safety of a child.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

michelle, you did good! jason will get Cato a good home where his (Cato's  ) talents can be used to everyone's advantage.

i had a really nice, philosophical post to this but it went *somewhere else* (i HATE windows vista).

bottom line: you did better than i would've.i would've probably, at the 2nd incident, applied my fist to his head, while hopefully pulling up hard on his collar.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

For a dog to alert on a small child tells me that there could be issues of pack postioning going on. Not that I'm the Dr. Phil of dogs. Not all dog breeds or lines are good with small people. The fact that it happened twice would be the sign to remove the animal. *Great move on your part.*

So that the same thing is not repeated again, how was the child allowed to play with the dog, rough? Climbing all over it, pulling the tail? What are the working lines? As you troubleshoot this one, just rethink those points. 

I got rid of a working Border Collie because of aggression and its failure to take the bottom position in my pack line up. On paper it looked great, but with my goose control business and being around people, I couldn't take the chance. When dogs cross the line, I don't give many second chances! [-(


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> So that the same thing is not repeated again, how was the child allowed to play with the dog, rough? Climbing all over it, pulling the tail? What are the working lines? As you troubleshoot this one, just rethink those points. [-(


My son is 4, but truly does have some dog saavy characteristics, as he has been around the bigdogs since his birth. When they did play, it was not rough, but tried to always incorporate positive play (ie: son throwing ball, treats, etc) In fact, most the time if they were together, I was doing ob with Cato. 

I did wonder about Cato "pulling rank". ?

Here is his pedigree: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/544926.html

And if anyone does want to see him in action  : http://www.vonsidener.com/Forsale.html He is a good dog, I'm thinking more one person dog...(but it's out of my hands)

I miss him, but I know there are plenty of lines out there who will not "light up" on family members.


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Michele McAtee said:


> I did wonder about Cato "pulling rank". ?
> 
> I miss him, but I know there are plenty of lines out there who will not "light up" on family members.


I don't mean to highjack - but can anyone describe what might be some signs of "pulling rank" ? I was under impression that this started out with more passive challenges first, staring, posturing, growling, rather than outright lunging attack? Or does this depend on the lines/dog?  

I am sure Cato will have no problem finding a suitable home that needs this seriousness - just as you will be able to find a better matching family dog. He is a gorgeous boy, and I've learned a lot from reading about all the work you've done with him.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

> I don't mean to highjack - but can anyone describe what might be some signs of "pulling rank" ? I was under impression that this started out with more passive challenges first, staring, posturing, growling, rather than outright lunging attack? Or does this depend on the lines/dog?


If the initial signs are corrected, the dog can jump from nothing to attack. That's why Michele was concerned about correcting for signs of aggression without fully correcting the problem. It creates the appearance of a dog who "turns." The dog learns to avoid giving warning signs and become "unpredictable" from a human perspective.

Whether a dog makes a large display/threat or small depends on how it perceives it's opponent. That's one reason why children are more likely to be bitten than an adult. The dog thinks "I can take him" and goes for it, whereas with an adult, the dog has a reasonable sense of caution until it determines that he can win.


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

Anna Kasho said:


> I don't mean to highjack - but can anyone describe what might be some signs of "pulling rank" ? I was under impression that this started out with more passive challenges first, staring, posturing, growling, rather than outright lunging attack? Or does this depend on the lines/dog?
> 
> I am sure Cato will have no problem finding a suitable home that needs this seriousness - just as you will be able to find a better matching family dog. He is a gorgeous boy, and I've learned a lot from reading about all the work you've done with him.



IMO, Cato's posturing and barking at my son were potentially early passive signs of pulling rank. The first time he did not lunge. I did not correct him for his behaviour, the second time (about 3 weeks or so later) he did lunge when he lit up. Both occasions, my son was doing nothing to provoke that kind of behaviour.

I think you are right on Cato being placed properly. I'm glad you have learned from our experiences...that's what these boards are all about!


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## Greg Leavitt (Aug 31, 2006)

I am very sorry to hear this but have seen it in several mink linebred dogs. I think you made the right decision. If I ever owned a dog that I fely was not safe to be around kids I am sure I would take care of it in a similiar manner.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

One of the GREATEST mistakes dog owners can make is to assume that their dog is safe around little kids or anything else. Many times it isn't the dog's fault, it is over the edge children picking on the animal and it has few choices. Owners who think it is "cute" for their fat a$$ kids to ride on the back of the dog are fools.

If the dog moves and the kids follow, what next? The dog does what it only knows to do, bite or nip. Some kids need their rear ends tanned and puppies praised for having better judgement.](*,) 

In this case it was best to remove the dog and not run the risk of a dog bite. Posturing or pulling rank signs can be many: humping, nipping, standing over top the child while they are on the ground, pinning the child to the ground, tail held high over the back, lips rolled back and/ ears flat back, low growling, failing to allow anyone to take a toy, food guarding, you can see the list grows.


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Good move by you and This Jason Sidener fellow is very honorable. Cudos to him as well.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Of course, at 18 months many dogs are retards momentarily, and so you just throw the dog outside in a kennel until his little brain can catch up to his new hormonal level. Or, you just give him back without a struggle, or actual thought of the fact that decent dogs go through this stage.

****in quitters.


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

That was the response I got from a couple of trainers. Thats right around the time dogs are looking to rise in the pack. "Many dogs do this" was what I was left with.


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> ****in quitters.


Rgh.RRRRRrrrrrr.

You are the *only* one who has made any sort of reference to this side of "my coin". (at least to my face, so I do respect you for that...yes, I said I *respect* you for that--thank you and you are welcome).

Yeppers. I did debate throwing bigguy in the kennel...too bad he was only a little over a year, as it would have been about another year of keeping him separate. Not how I am able to live with my dog at this time.

I surrendered a great dog. Never before in my life have I been in a situation involving taking a dog back to the breeder. I hope to not ever be in this situation again. 

I do appreciate everyones comments and PM's.


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## Alegria Cebreco (Jul 25, 2007)

In certain situations having a dog like Cato (or Rade, whom I just gave back as well) will not work out. If I had my dream house in the boonies (yes that is my dream  ) away from people, just me and my dogs there would have been no issue keeping him. But in my situation living in the city, with kids, and people everywhere it was a huge risk I couldnt take and these kids are complete strangers. I can only imagine if it was my kid. I probably would have killed the dog if he lunged at my child.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Wherever the fault lies, the decision couldn't have been easy but I would say it has to be made in favour of the child. I've never given a dog away but - I don't have children - so I can afford to wait it out and correct where necessary.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I personally didn't even think of looking at this situation as being a "quitter".
If someone wants to use that word then I say you weren't a "quitter" when it came to the safety of you child. 
That's what a mom who is a class act would do! :wink:
Jeff, go to your room! :razz:


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## Betty Mathena (Apr 19, 2006)

You know, I have some experience with this bloodline and it can be challanging at times. Michele put excellent foundation work on this dog, and that was as a novice. She is still going to club WITHOUT a dog.

Is there things she could of done differently? Probably, I look at problems I have with some of my dogs and say "hmmm, maybe that wasn't such a good idea, or maybe I should of tried this." If she started over at square one, I'm sure she can think of things she would do different. I can with every single dog I own and train.

She was uncomforable with the situation with a dog and her child and returned the dog to the breeder. She put the child first and the dog a close second. He wasn't sold to just anyone, he wasn't euthanized and he wasn't dumped at a shelter. 

I will take chances with a dog with myself. I too, would err on the side of caution where a child is involved.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Oh, so this dog was a "house" dog? This would shed some light on it if so. My pups get out of control here and there too but it is easy to keep them away from those who could be injured.


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

Betty Mathena said:


> You know, I have some experience with this bloodline and it can be challanging at times. Michele put excellent foundation work on this dog, and that was as a novice. She is still going to club WITHOUT a dog


Can be challenging at times...heh! For sure--fun challenge too. I think I'd like to work "up" to a dog like him versus starting there. 

Thanks for your comments Betty. Good insight. 

Yes, I am still going to club, living vicariously thru other dogs right now.  Did some helper work on back transport with a (soon to be SchH III ) GSD on Tuesday. Fun fun fun!!!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

The life of a child isn't the issue I was addressing. This is sorta funny to me, as I see this a LOT. 

I see a lot of novices with dogs that end up too much. I am starting to think that this is the "environment" end of the stick on dog raising.

Also, if the dog had not been weird before this, then I would have put the dog up for a bit until he can figure out his hormonal issues. I really doubt that he was going to be all that much, dogs rarely are, even the ones people SWEAR are all that LOL Having said that, if he wasn't weird before, then he would have went back to normal fairly quickly.

Jason got a pretty good deal:-# :-# :-# :-#


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

So, in the scenarios involving the barking, (kid coming in the back door) then the bark/lunge (at kid across the room drinking cup of milk) as a handler, simply put the dog up and do not address it with the dog? Wait for hormones to balance? Putting the dog up is a message in and of itself to the dog? 

I guess the "alarming" part of that approach is the simple fact the dog went from alert barking (no intervention other than "No" and platz from me) to the next occasion a few weeks later to barking/lunge. My point is the progression of dog's behaviour, testing what he could get away with, and mind you, that was my son. 

You truly believe (or have witnessed) by putting the dog up and keeping child separate at all times and letting time pass with these lines will take care of it? He *was* reared around children, TONs of socialization as a pup with kids...did very well too.

By NO means am I second guessing my decision here (you're right, Jason's got a great dog), just for discussion purposes.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

It's not my first time at the dance if that is what you are asking. I am not a beginner. 

My first thought is that the dog was not that good with kids to begin with, and you just missed it, or left it out. Personally, if the dog had no previous problem with kids, and at the age that the hormones kicked in got weird, I would just stick the dog out in the kennel.

I don't know you, don't know your kid, or what he might have done to start getting that kind of "aggressive" response. Overall, I think you are leaving something out, as dogs that are fine with kids don't get that nutty for no reason whatsoever.

I have had a dog or two or ten that got to be a bit much around that age, but not weird like you are describing.

What you are describing is either the dog was always a nutter, or the dog is fine (my fav) and the kid is the problem.


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> What you are describing is either the dog was always a nutter, or the dog is fine (my fav) and the kid is the problem.


Handler, in your mind, has nothing to do with it... (rolleyes)

IMO, Cato is not a nutter. It was more than likely hormonal and testing combined with MY questions and ability to proceed at that time. (also, for the record, my son was always supervised with the dog--interactions were positive.)

The other thing, that I mentioned on another board, which I found to be a possiblity, was that on those 2 isolated incidents, the first time, Cato was on lead, and when the back door opened, I *could* have possibly thought "oh crap, they are home" because my time with dog/alone time was done...I was wondering if he may have reacted to that thinking because the 2nd time it happened, my son had actually awakened a bit earlier than he normally does...and I could have *thought* the same thing at that time. (my alone time or time alone with dog is a cherished time for me). 

Both incidents were isolated and events outside the Norm of our routines. Albeit, my son was doing nothing to provoke the dog in anyway. 

I am not intentionally leaving anything out...life with Cato definately held its challenges, and I did everything in my power with leadership and training, etc to maintain and have continued fun with him in our life/family. He was more like "machine" dog than SchH family pet.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Here we go, this is for general information, to dispell goofy myths.

Quote: The other thing, that I mentioned on another board, which I found to be a possiblity, was that on those 2 isolated incidents, the first time, Cato was on lead, and when the back door opened, I *could* have possibly thought "oh crap, they are home" because my time with dog/alone time was done...I was wondering if he may have reacted to that thinking because the 2nd time it happened, my son had actually awakened a bit earlier than he normally does...and I could have *thought* the same thing at that time. (my alone time or time alone with dog is a cherished time for me). 

Where is the "machine" dog in this scenario, and what would that description have to do with anything you just wrote???? Dogs really don't "get" what you are thinking ever, and as much as people try and attach this "myth" to bad behaviors as if they magically are forgiven, as the dog read the "handlers" mind. Pure crap. If my dog had any inkling of what I was thinking, he would not have ****ed off in two trials and just done what he was capable of doing three years ago, instead of waiting till a few weeks ago. He has been capable of the performance the whole time, it was no miracle, and trust me, if he was reading what I was thinking, he would have picked up the stupid ****ing stuffed toy, and did the ****ing send out that we have done 5000 times and at much greater distances little piece of shit that he is. I was thinking of kicking his head into mush. He didn't have a clue, neither did your dog, he was just going through a normal stage that good dogs go through.

Quote: Handler, in your mind, has nothing to do with it... (rolleyes)

Other than the beating of a lifetime for looking at a child in any aggressive fashion, which I blame you for, and the mythological "mind reading" act............no, these days people are just too stupid about their dogs for some reason, myself included.

So there, and keep your little rolly eyes to yourself.:twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:


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## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

Jeff,

Michele as not saying the dog read her mind. If you do not think that dogs react to the energy or emotion of the handler then you are no where near as experienced as you claim to be. If you think that the energy given off by a rush of adrenalin from an "Oh Crap" realization has no effect on a dog then I feel sorry for you and your dogs. 

Michele did the right thing here. You seem to be missing the part where she said it was due to her unease in the situations/lack of confidence in herself as a handler and her concern for her child that lead up to this decision. She wanted a more "pet" quality dog, when one wasn't born to the litter she decided to step up and try out a full throttle working line dog.

She is not saying the kid was at fault. She is not saying the dog was/is crazy.

There are times when handlers and dogs don't fully mesh and she made the decision as a parent that her child was more important and she could not risk being unable to handle the dog if something happened.

You certainly have a reputation for being a jack*** and there are times where your opinion "fits" but this is not one of those times. Your attempt at superiority is lost here as she fully admits to the faults of the situation.


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Here we go, this is for general information, to dispell goofy myths.
> 
> Quote: The other thing, that I mentioned on another board, which I found to be a possiblity, was that on those 2 isolated incidents, the first time, Cato was on lead, and when the back door opened, I *could* have possibly thought "oh crap, they are home" because my time with dog/alone time was done...I was wondering if he may have reacted to that thinking because the 2nd time it happened, my son had actually awakened a bit earlier than he normally does...and I could have *thought* the same thing at that time. (my alone time or time alone with dog is a cherished time for me).
> 
> ...


LOL--with a bit of "heh" at times throughout this reading too. Without this full spectrum of beliefs about our dogs--(dog IS god spelled backwards for a reason) what fun would any of any of it be anyway???)  (rolley eyes kept to self).

I must say though, when you wrote: "He didn't have a clue, neither did your dog, he was just going through a normal stage that good dogs go through" I think, in true hindsight, you're absolutely right.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: If you do not think that dogs react to the energy or emotion of the handler then you are no where near as experienced as you claim to be. If you think that the energy given off by a rush of adrenalin from an "Oh Crap" realization has no effect on a dog then I feel sorry for you and your dogs. :smile:

Still hanging on to the BS I see. Probably why you can't let go of those useless Lawn and Garden Dogs.

Maybe you should actually read ALL of what I wrote before responding, as your sad attempt at keeping the myth alive is not going to work. Maybe read up on denial and displaced emotion.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

If I startle or gasp, Cujo jumps up barking. Pure reaction to body language and conditioning.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Here we go, this is for general information, to dispell goofy myths.
> 
> Quote: The other thing, that I mentioned on another board, which I found to be a possiblity, was that on those 2 isolated incidents, the first time, Cato was on lead, and when the back door opened, I *could* have possibly thought "oh crap, they are home" because my time with dog/alone time was done...I was wondering if he may have reacted to that thinking because the 2nd time it happened, my son had actually awakened a bit earlier than he normally does...and I could have *thought* the same thing at that time. (my alone time or time alone with dog is a cherished time for me).
> 
> ...


Man I come off abrasive a little to often. But man I'm going to make a prediction before the summer is over your going to end up getting the sh!t kicked out of you if you keep going after people like this.


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## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

Jeff, I did read your posts. I've read a lot of your posts from various threads.

You don't impress or frighten me. I ignore you for the most part but in this you were particularly out of line. I'll step up in Michele's defense but I feel no need to defend myself, my dogs, or my "myths."


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