# Socialization question



## Chris Adlam (May 6, 2011)

I'm sure this has been discussed at length, so please forgive me. I did a search but didn't find any help. 

My 14 week old GSD is becoming more and more dog aggressive. He's fine with people, but when he sees a dog while we're on walks, he pulls on the leash and barks like crazy trying to get at them. Size doesn't matter... 

Part of the problem is that I've been told a hundred times, "don't let him around other dogs until he's had all of his shots". Fortunately, he gets his last one tomorrow. 

Any advice as to how to introduce him properly starting tomorrow? 

Thanks,


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Chris Adlam said:


> I'm sure this has been discussed at length, so please forgive me. I did a search but didn't find any help.
> 
> My 14 week old GSD is becoming more and more dog aggressive. He's fine with people, but when he sees a dog while we're on walks, he pulls on the leash and barks like crazy trying to get at them. Size doesn't matter...
> 
> ...


are you sure its aggression you are seeing in a pup that age? Or is he pissed off because he can't get his way and go investigate the other dog?


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Brian Anderson said:


> are you sure its aggression you are seeing in a pup that age? Or is he pissed off because he can't get his way and go investigate the other dog?


I was wondering the same thing about it being aggression. I don't view it as though he is wanting to get his own way either. he's a fkn pup and he's curious about other dogs_ naturally_! Fuk me dead!


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Hey chris!

It's probably not dog aggression at this stage but more what someone else said, frustration. His half brother would do the same thing as a pup. I dealt with it one way but I'd like to hear others. Oh, I can tell you one half brother is what I would call dog snotty but he was jumped as a pup and I think that had a lot to do with it. That's the last thing you need so whatever you do, be very aware of any dogs you do let him interact with, if you do! 

A half sister would do the same thing on walks and her owner said she just taught her "leave it" and that was it. It took some time but she said it worked. 

Laura


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## Chris Adlam (May 6, 2011)

I don't think he's necessarily pissed that he can't get off the leash. There's no wagging tail, "hey I wanna play" sort of attitude. As for being curious about other dogs, I'm sure you're right. I'm just looking for the right way to introduce him to other dogs.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Chris Adlam said:


> Any advice as to how to introduce him properly starting tomorrow?
> 
> Thanks,


Let him off the leash and allow him to interact preferably with known dogs who are ok with other dogs. Failing that, use good judgement in allowing him to interact with other dogs, that way he will learn about other dogs and dog language.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

14 month old puppies are usually brats, not aggressive.
Find a Schutzhund club with some non aggressive older GSD males and let them loose together in an enclosed space. The older
GSD will teach the puppies some manners. As long as there isn't any blood don't be concerned about noise and growling


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> 14 month old puppies are usually brats, not aggressive.
> Find a Schutzhund club with some non aggressive older GSD males and let them loose together in an enclosed space. The older
> GSD will teach the puppies some manners. As long as there isn't any blood don't be concerned about noise and growling


Thomas, 14 months ?? The pup is 14 weeks. Get the specs on, or double them up !


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

maggie fraser said:


> Thomas, 14 months ?? The pup is 14 weeks. Get the specs on, or double them up !


Mistyped: 14 WEEK old puppies aren't usually aggressive
14 month old Puppies can be.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Let him interact with stable adult dogs. They can "fix" a lot of problems for you. As long as at first your sure the dogs you introduce him to are stable. Its all good.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

get more interesting to him; you might be boring to him at those times

(really) learn about canine body language and learn how to read your dog. 
have you noticed if his tail swings clockwise or counter clockwise ?
does he lick his lips when he sees other dogs ?

it will also come in handy when he's mature and will also help you with other dogs you meet along the way later in life


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Brian Anderson said:


> Let him interact with stable adult dogs. They can "fix" a lot of problems for you. As long as at first your sure the dogs you introduce him to are stable. Its all good.


Great idea Brian ;-)


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Leashes and Fences do weird shit to dogs. 

If it's aggression specific to the leash. Meaning the dog is fine off a leash, makes a scene on a leash. You can easily redirect the behavior.

First you have to teach the dog solid eye contact, so the minute you say watch, they look and stare in your eyes. It would be prefered if you could teach this in a heel also. It does not have to be competetion perfect...just the dog walks with you, gazing at you. 

Once that is established, you can go for a walk....the second your dog, lays eyes on another dog. You have to be watching. And make sure it's the minute they see the other dog. Ask for a watch and start shoving food in your dogs face (make sure they are hungry).

keep doing this till the dog looks at you without command when it sees another dog it may take a few sessions to get this, keep sessions short). Then start shoving food in his face again. After awhile start fading the food and make him hold the gaze reward right away, then as the dog passes, then after the dog has passed ( you can use a mark here).

I did this with a rescue dog of mine. It worked great. It's from the book fiesty fido by dr. McConnell.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re: "Let him interact with stable adult dogs"

yes 
and i would add... some of the best for this work are quality bred goldens and labs....really know how to deal with pups, have soft mouths, are not pushovers either, and know when to draw the line
- problem is, a lotta WD owners tend to turn their noses up at em 
- strong confident well trained WD's, are not always as good and sometimes dish it out a little ruff when the pup steps over the line...if you want your dog tuffened up a bit, go that route

but i wouldn't encourage a lot of canine meet/greets/play since it often also has an effect of making the pup doggy
- neutral and non reactive is still the only way i socialize....pups or adults


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## Grant Cusworth (Feb 15, 2011)

FWIW... I had a mal that seemed obsessed with other dogs. He'd lose focus during training etc... So when he was 4 months old I put him into a doggie day care facility. (I have a friend that works there so I knew it was clean and well run) Well, after 4 days in a row he went on dog overload and now is completely indifferent towards other dogs. Basically a de-sensitization method. The nice thing about a well run dog day care is that all the dogs are evaluated for temperament so your pup won't get a true beat down and after a couple days they'd rather just go to work with their handler than put up with all the nonsense from the other dogs.

May not work for everyone but worked like a charm for me.

Grant


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Grant Cusworth said:


> FWIW... I had a mal that seemed obsessed with other dogs. He'd lose focus during training etc... So when he was 4 months old I put him into a doggie day care facility. (I have a friend that works there so I knew it was clean and well run) Well, after 4 days in a row he went on dog overload and now is completely indifferent towards other dogs. Basically a de-sensitization method. The nice thing about a well run dog day care is that all the dogs are evaluated for temperament so your pup won't get a true beat down and after a couple days they'd rather just go to work with their handler than put up with all the nonsense from the other dogs.
> 
> May not work for everyone but worked like a charm for me.
> 
> Grant


Grant,

I think you got lucky. Controlled introduction to stable adult males will help the OP's puppy. Dog parks and doggy day cares are dangerous IMO where you have no control over
who interacts with your puppy. I would NEVER take my dogs
to either.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i'm w/ Thomas...u got lucky....any time you turn your dog loose with other dogs you don't know ... it's a crap shoot and the odds are often bad for your dog. 
i take dogs there but on lead and 99% of the time there is NO interaction.....just good for background noise distractions

plus, day care customers are often people who have no business owning a dog in the first place, so what could you expect of the dog they have ? not much that would be reliable imo
- if i sound harsh; i'm not sorry :-( .... i see way too many people that have NO business owning a dog, or they got the wrong type, and i have said that to a few of my customers.....for me it's not always "genetic" - rather a good dog ruined by a bad owner


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Hi:

A few questions. What age did you get the puppy? How many in the litter? Was he still with the mother/littermates when you got him. Pedigree? Do you have any other dogs in the household? Second, I don't think you waiting till he was vaccinated really has anything to do with it. Third, fear of other dogs can show up this early. Its the fear that fuels the aggression. Nor do I think, ohhhhhh, its just puppy curiousity, turn him loose and let him play and he'll be cured. If you had some doggie buddies that had adult dogs that would essentially ignore him while you had him on lead in their presence, that would be a good start. If you don't, keep taking him on walks, and like others have suggested, pick that time to teach him to focus on you by using his favorite toy or food treat [really good stuff, not kibble]--something that will be more meaningful to him than the other dog. 14 weeks can be a funky age. In 2 weeks to a month, it could pass. Also, always good to check in with the breeder regarding development questions.

Terrasita


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

James Downey said it all 


> Leashes and fences do wierd things to dogs


Pup is only 14 weeks old! If you don't like him acting that way, clip him upside the head a few times....or let it go on and have to train the dog out of it when he is older.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Sire: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/germ...html?id=595401

Dam: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/germ...html?id=577915

For the GSD folks. Found the pedigree. Chris, I assume from your other posts, you intend to venture into the training/competition obsession. Don the wack'em theory doesn't seem to work in your hunting scenarios with males that live with you that you birthed. For the puppy, teaching him an alternative behavior to interaction/reaction seems to go alot further than fear of the handler trumping fear of the dog. While there is genetic dog aggression that shows up pretty early, he's probably going through a funky stage and a few more out and abouts and focus training, and he'll be over it. 

Terrasita


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Sire: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/germ...html?id=595401
> 
> Dam: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/germ...html?id=577915
> 
> ...


Works great with my dogs T....unless two of my males are looking at each other. They don't act like this with other dogs. It also works for everything else T. I can leave my dinner sitting on the counter, the trash with chicken parts sitting next to the door and leave for 8 hours and no one will touch it....something you can't do with your method.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

James Downey said:


> Leashes and Fences do weird shit to dogs.
> 
> If it's aggression specific to the leash. Meaning the dog is fine off a leash, makes a scene on a leash. You can easily redirect the behavior.
> 
> ...


Is this really fixing anything or just masking it? And is masking something to be considered fixing it? I understand that it may let you now go for a walk but will you always have to have you dog “watch” you when there is another dog in sight? If so isn’t that just an accident waiting to happen? Will it be as reliable as just teaching a dog its just not allowed to fight? Or after doing this for sometime is the dog no longer aggressive and more trust worthy with other dogs? Not trying to bust balls here just trying to get an understanding of methods such as this and the end results… and the time it takes to get to the end results. I understand it all varies with each dog. This is certainly going to sound like im busting balls but its not meant to but the more I am learning about the different methods the more I am thinking that shoving food in a dogs face is not really training a dog as much as it is just doing something to “get by” . I have a lot more questions but I think and type to slow.
Thanks


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Works great with my dogs T....unless two of my males are looking at each other. They don't act like this with other dogs. It also works for everything else T. I can leave my dinner sitting on the counter, the trash with chicken parts sitting next to the door and leave for 8 hours and no one will touch it....something you can't do with your method.


Don,


It really comes down to what you care about. If I cared about the ability to leave food next to the door for 8 hours or dinner on the counter, I'd train against it. My bouv doesn't surf counters or nose around in the trash and that's nothing I've trained. I have other things more important [like the ability to leave them in a pen of sheep while I go off and do other things] and its much less time consuming to not leave food unattended and pick up things you don't want a dog or puppy mouth on. Counter surfing and trashcans are child's play compared to the complex behaviors people train and train against on this forum. You have dogs that don't see anything other than their kennel yard. If your method were all that, it wouldn't matter if those two males were challenging each other or if they had a challenge from an outsider. Instinct takes over and you're out of the picture. Command over or within instinct is the ultimate training goal. We're talking about a 14 week old puppy that he's establishing a working relationship with. My guess is that he isn't confident around strange dogs. I'd work more on him gaining confidence and in his pack leader [will keep him safe] than ohhhh, while you're not confident with dogs, we'll also turn the handler into the boogie man at the same time. There's a time and place in molding any dog for "because I say so." The other things mentioned would be a better start for this puppy--or so I think.

T


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Don,
> 
> 
> It really comes down to what you care about. If I cared about the ability to leave food next to the door for 8 hours or dinner on the counter, I'd train against it. My bouv doesn't surf counters or nose around in the trash and that's nothing I've trained. I have other things more important T


I don’t think you should have to train for this! The dog should just know it aint supposed to and then not do it. It’s just that simple. At least that’s what I think for what it’s worth… free internet advice.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Don,
> 
> 
> It really comes down to what you care about. If I cared about the ability to leave food next to the door for 8 hours or dinner on the counter, I'd train against it. My bouv doesn't surf counters or nose around in the trash and that's nothing I've trained. I have other things more important [like the ability to leave them in a pen of sheep while I go off and do other things] and its much less time consuming to not leave food unattended and pick up things you don't want a dog or puppy mouth on. Counter surfing and trashcans are child's play compared to the complex behaviors people train and train against on this forum. You have dogs that don't see anything other than their kennel yard. If your method were all that, it wouldn't matter if those two males were challenging each other or if they had a challenge from an outsider. Instinct takes over and you're out of the picture. Command over or within instinct is the ultimate training goal. We're talking about a 14 week old puppy that he's establishing a working relationship with. My guess is that he isn't confident around strange dogs. I'd work more on him gaining confidence and in his pack leader [will keep him safe] than ohhhh, while you're not confident with dogs, we'll also turn the handler into the boogie man at the same time. There's a time and place in molding any dog for "because I say so." The other things mentioned would be a better start for this puppy--or so I think.
> ...


T, if you don't want me to critique what you can and can't do with your method, don't critique my posts. If you got something to say to the op, just say it. If you want me to critique your posts, continue in your normal fashion. You don't think it is important to teach a dog to stay out of the garbage and off the counter because you can't without teaching multiple other useless disciplines and that takes a lot of time.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Chris,

It can get a little deep into what others consider psycho-babble but there are very few dogs that "want" to fight. While I've known of a couple that wanted the social fight, mostly what I've seen is aggressive displays telling another dog to stay away. Each dog has his zone. If it truly were the dominant dog social fight, I'd be more inclined to have that come to jesus. Not my style for what is more fear based behavior and certainly not with a puppy who could just be staging. Its hard to say with this puppy. I don't know how he was raised, selection criteria, etc. For me, it would be sort of a program and him being a herding dog, the first thing I'd do is work hiim on livestock. Does enormous good for improving confidence. . I pick out friends dogs that are absolute doggie neutral and work my way up to dogs that I think put out vibes or the working the obedience stuff [all positive] in places like Petsmart where I don't know what could be coming around the corner. I think you have to build default in the working/trial dog as attention to and interaction with the handler, period. As long as he doesn't have genetics in the mix or dog attack history, desensitization and focus on the handler can/will work. You can use food, handler focus, etc to deflect the stress, fear [whatever you want to call it] associated with the other dog. Dogs/animals are communicating mentally regardless of proximity to one another. For instance, I'm at the farm and my GSD Teva is in heel position and we're walking to another pasture. Sandra is walking few feet to my left. Her dog, Puck was following maybe 20 feet behind. Why?? Because Teva was telling her to. I told Teva to knock it off and the next thing I know Puck was walking amongst us. Puck is the same dog I used to get an understanding of another dog with dog issues. As she came towards us, my dog gave off vibes--body tense, eyes slightly averted--go away. She stopped cold. His entire body relaxed. Because she listened, from that day forward, she could always work along side him and be close. This is a dog I got at 9 months that came with the dog-to-dog issue. He sort of drew a circle around himself. This same dog, never had an issue on the trial field with set out dogs or in the pens because the WORK superceded the dog fear/concern. You were never going to beat it out of him. He had fight to the death survival drive. At home with the male he lived with, he wanted the fight. There you have competition issues. As Don knows, when you have this type of social ladder fight, only knocking them unconscious is going to stop it. Away from home, he first wanted other dogs to stay away from him. If not, fight to the death. 

It can be disasterous to turn a dog loose who is uncomfortable, with a pack of dogs that aren't his pack. Have seen this with those puppy play groups which I hate. You can work with a dog/puppy and show them that they don't have to go into defense with all dogs. You need to choose the right dogs and don't leave it to random chance. From there, with working the dog, you keep upping the ante until its side by side, in large groups, dogs that put out challenge vibes, etc. While eating, working for you, playing tug with you, they don't focus on the dog or go into that fear mode so the fear/concern lessens-- or so it seems with some of the ones I've worked with. 

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> T, if you don't want me to critique what you can and can't do with your method, don't critique my posts. If you got something to say to the op, just say it. If you want me to critique your posts, continue in your normal fashion. You don't think it is important to teach a dog to stay out of the garbage and off the counter because you can't without teaching multiple other useless disciplines and that takes a lot of time.


 
Getting a little sensitive??? I'm not critiquing your posts and you can critique all you want. You chose to mention what I can and can't do with my methods [like you know what they are] and you've stated what you can't accomplish with yours in terms of dog aggression. Multiple other useless disciplines---such as and to who. Don, all my dogs are house dogs and the bouvs and GSDs have run the house loose unattended for most of their lives. Counter surfing and trash is the least I think about. Right now, there's a fruit bowl, kid's chocolate chip cookies, etc. I leave meat thawing all the time in the sink. Hasn't been an issue with the dogs. Trash goes out at night. I did teach the cat not to get on the counters or my stove, if that helps. My friend's bouv that is a littermate to mine doesn't counter surf either and his daily dose of raw chicken can be there thawing. If I leave my plate unattended with the GSDs I've had, they didn't eat it , they guarded it from the cat. Maybe there are things I don't have to train because of the breeds of dogs that I have and they grow up in the house with certain routines. My bouv won't eat her dinner in the kitchen. I raised her feeding her in the crate and that's where she wants to eat it. If really hungry, she might nibble at it---but she barks at me to put it in her crate. This is the strangest pattern-izing I've seen. I think its funny. After all, I trained her or established that food is in a bowl in her crate. For all the nights she lays in the kitchen while I trim meat and put the trimmings in her bowl, eating in the kitchen and/or from a kitchen surface is the farthest from her mind. You made your usual broad statement that that Kohler type approach works for everything else. Sorry I disagree and like many other people, I didn't start off training with marker/clicker training. Its easy to stop puppy from the lunge and/or the bark. But for a puppy that in the future that will have to work/compete in the presence of dogs and at a distance from the handler, there's a broader issue to deal with. You want to change his mindset about other dogs and he's young enough that done right, you might have some success at it.

T


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Getting a little sensitive??? I'm not critiquing your posts and you can critique all you want. You chose to mention what I can and can't do with my methods [like you know what they are] and you've stated what you can't accomplish with yours in terms of dog aggression. Multiple other useless disciplines---such as and to who. Don, all my dogs are house dogs and the bouvs and GSDs have run the house loose unattended for most of their lives. Counter surfing and trash is the least I think about. Right now, there's a fruit bowl, kid's chocolate chip cookies, etc. I leave meat thawing all the time in the sink. Hasn't been an issue with the dogs. Trash goes out at night. I did teach the cat not to get on the counters or my stove, if that helps. My friend's bouv that is a littermate to mine doesn't counter surf either and his daily dose of raw chicken can be there thawing. If I leave my plate unattended with the GSDs I've had, they didn't eat it , they guarded it from the cat. Maybe there are things I don't have to train because of the breeds of dogs that I have and they grow up in the house with certain routines. My bouv won't eat her dinner in the kitchen. I raised her feeding her in the crate and that's where she wants to eat it. If really hungry, she might nibble at it---but she barks at me to put it in her crate. This is the strangest pattern-izing I've seen. I think its funny. After all, I trained her or established that food is in a bowl in her crate. For all the nights she lays in the kitchen while I trim meat and put the trimmings in her bowl, eating in the kitchen and/or from a kitchen surface is the farthest from her mind. You made your usual broad statement that that Kohler type approach works for everything else. Sorry I disagree and like many other people, I didn't start off training with marker/clicker training. Its easy to stop puppy from the lunge and/or the bark. But for a puppy that in the future that will have to work/compete in the presence of dogs and at a distance from the handler, there's a broader issue to deal with. You want to change his mindset about other dogs and he's young enough that done right, you might have some success at it.
> 
> T


T, darlin, I never mentioned Koehler. Clipping a 14 week old pup upside the head has zero to do with Koehler. But you know Koehler right? Because you have used them all?


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> T, darlin, I never mentioned Koehler. Clipping a 14 week old pup upside the head has zero to do with Koehler. But you know Koehler right? Because you have used them all?


Read all the books, yep. Used them all--nope. I think I was about 12 when I tossed out Koehler for the first time. Sweetness, you don't have to mention Koehler every time. Its in a zillion other threads. But we won't put the clipping upside the head in the Koehler camp. He'd probably made use of a chain choke/string'em up tactic--same difference. But just for you, for me, there was one thing Koehler was good for--random walkabouts to teach heel position. It can even be done without collar corrections or flipping the dog. Works wonders for finding the left leg and heel position. For instance, the second puppy focused on another dog on the walk or anything else, I'd turn and go the other way and mark/reward when he hit heel position. They can't keep track of me, a bird, squirrel, etc. at the same time. You have to keep it fast to they can't be right unless they are fully paying attention. 7-16 weeks is when I'm laying the foundation. For me, its THE most important time for putting there what I will use in his adult future. But we won't clutter Chris' thread with another Koehler vs. positive. He can choose between the clipping upside the head vs. what others have offered in terms of attention training and desensitization.

T


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> James Downey said it all
> Pup is only 14 weeks old! If you don't like him acting that way, clip him upside the head a few times....or let it go on and have to train the dog out of it when he is older.


T, I made one post about how I would handle it. You didn't like it and look at the mileage you have gotten out of it. Even making up shit I didn't even say. You handle things your way, I will handle them mine. And the op can handle it any way he/she wants.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Ohhhhh, I didn't make anything up. I was extremely interested in how training came into play in the hunt scenario with socially dominant dogs and particularly how Black Jack responded to the Koehler training with an episode of refusal and you putting him up. I train dogs that can check out into instinct land. I lived with a dog that just soon kill another dog as look at it and another that was never going to accept an equally dominant intact male. So trust me if I thought you had something in this regard, you had my full attention. 

Personally, I think Chris needs to hook up with Laura. One of the reasons I posted the pedigree again because I've learned that there is a genetic component to this. Laura's post hints that this may be the case here as well. She also is involved in the competition aspect. 

Terrasita


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

One of the best ways to "control" a pup that is getting to aggressive with other dogs it to run it with a strong bitch that has had a few litters.


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Oh, this thread is making me miss my female Terv. I didn't understand her and I didn't handle her the right way, but she was the smartest dog ever. Such a bitch, but so fair. She raised a couple of puppies for me and made sure they were very well mannered. I had a couple of friends that would ask now and again to put their young dogs in with Racie for a lesson in manners. Watching her work was something else.

She was a dog that I might be ready for after another ten years of dogs. 

Laura


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## Lorrie McCarthy (Aug 26, 2011)

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> Oh, this thread is making me miss my female Terv. I didn't understand her and I didn't handle her the right way, but she was the smartest dog ever. Such a bitch, but so fair. She raised a couple of puppies for me and made sure they were very well mannered. I had a couple of friends that would ask now and again to put their young dogs in with Racie for a lesson in manners. Watching her work was something else.
> 
> She was a dog that I might be ready for after another ten years of dogs.
> 
> Laura



Those puppy raiser dogs are very valuable and I too miss them when they are gone...


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## Steve Groen (Aug 22, 2010)

rick smith said:


> i'm w/ Thomas...u got lucky....any time you turn your dog loose with other dogs you don't know ... it's a crap shoot and the odds are often bad for your dog.
> i take dogs there but on lead and 99% of the time there is NO interaction.....just good for background noise distractions
> 
> plus, day care customers are often people who have no business owning a dog in the first place, so what could you expect of the dog they have ? not much that would be reliable imo
> - if i sound harsh; i'm not sorry :-( .... i see way too many people that have NO business owning a dog, or they got the wrong type, and i have said that to a few of my customers.....for me it's not always "genetic" - rather a good dog ruined by a bad owner


 
I agree with Thomas and Rick. I've brought my girl to leash-free dog parks for nearly three years now, and I've been able to watch her psychological growth through socialization. The conclusion I've drawn is that you should stay away from dogs that you do not know, period, and if you do go to dog parks, exercise your dog proactively and then leave before there's a problem. No chatting with the neighbors while your dog gets to know Sluggo and Arfy.

My girl is almost always pleasant with other dogs and more so with their owners. The problem arises when 1) she decides she'd like to have another owner throw the floppy disk to her (creating a personal space issue for the other owner's dog); 2) the other dog wants to nip at her while she's chasing the floppy disk (Border Collies and the cattle dogs do that a lot) or compete for the toy; or 3) if she's resting, another dog decides to invade her personal space after being warned. My girl spent her first 16 months in a malinois pack, and she has lots of respect for pack hierarchy, but it's usually about stealing her floppy disk or sniffing her butt longer than she's decided the other dog deserves. In any case, she warns by growling, and it ends up in a fight if the other's too stupid or studly to take the hint.

I've never tried to "correct" this reactive behavior. I think she's rightly entitled to space. Just the same, dog parks are a bad place for anything but absolutely passive animals.


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## Chris Adlam (May 6, 2011)

Thanks for all the responses everyone. 

We got him just before he was 8 weeks. He was the first to go, and he was with his mother / littermates up until then. We have no other dogs in the house. He and I have an amazing bond already. I'm sure everyone thinks that about their dog, but it's true. 

Terresita, I think you hit the nail on the head. I think his "aggression" is fear based. It's like he's trying to warn the other dogs. His hackles go up, he shows a very brave front, and pulls like crazy trying to get at the other dogs. 

This weekend, I introduced him to a 5 year old male yellow lab. We were at the local elementary school field playing ball when he saw the other dog come on the field. He started his bravado act while they were far apart and I corrected him. The other owner and his dog approached us and we talked for a few minutes while the two dogs were about 10 feet apart. The other owner told me the lab was great with other dogs and was not aggressive at all. From what I could tell, he seemed like a good stable dog. (he was very relaxed, tail wagging, etc.) Rocco was pulling, trying to get at the other dog, but the aggression was gone. I let them sniff a little on leash - no problems. We let them off leash and they were absolutely fine. Running and playing like buddies. All was good. 

When I took him for his walk this morning, we saw another dog across the street and he tried the aggressive behavior again. This time he got a quick correction. (nothing major, just a leash correction and "no".) He settled down pretty quickly. The other owner and I talked from about 20 feet apart and Rocco was fine. Her dog was "not friendly" so there was no introduction and we continued on our walk. 

Hopefully, we're on heading in the right direction. Thanks again to everyone. 





Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Hi:
> 
> A few questions. What age did you get the puppy? How many in the litter? Was he still with the mother/littermates when you got him. Pedigree? Do you have any other dogs in the household? Second, I don't think you waiting till he was vaccinated really has anything to do with it. Third, fear of other dogs can show up this early. Its the fear that fuels the aggression. Nor do I think, ohhhhhh, its just puppy curiousity, turn him loose and let him play and he'll be cured. If you had some doggie buddies that had adult dogs that would essentially ignore him while you had him on lead in their presence, that would be a good start. If you don't, keep taking him on walks, and like others have suggested, pick that time to teach him to focus on you by using his favorite toy or food treat [really good stuff, not kibble]--something that will be more meaningful to him than the other dog. 14 weeks can be a funky age. In 2 weeks to a month, it could pass. Also, always good to check in with the breeder regarding development questions.
> 
> Terrasita


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> One of the best ways to "control" a pup that is getting to aggressive with other dogs it to run it with a strong bitch that has had a few litters.


i've been blessed to have adopted dogs that "helped" (haha) my pups learn their manners--don't know if Sadie or Gracie had pups, but they didn't/don't put up with crap from my pups (ask ike  )


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Chris Adlam said:


> This weekend, I introduced him to a 5 year old male yellow lab. We were at the local elementary school field playing ball when he saw the other dog come on the field. He started his bravado act while they were far apart and I corrected him. The other owner and his dog approached us and we talked for a few minutes while the two dogs were about 10 feet apart. The other owner told me the lab was great with other dogs and was not aggressive at all. From what I could tell, he seemed like a good stable dog. (he was very relaxed, tail wagging, etc.) Rocco was pulling, trying to get at the other dog, but the aggression was gone. I let them sniff a little on leash - no problems. We let them off leash and they were absolutely fine. Running and playing like buddies. All was good.
> .


Chris

Be careful of correcting the puppy for showing aggression when another dog approaches. He may make a connection between the correct and the approaching dog and become more
aggressive. I'd use a nylon choke (dominant dog/puppy) collar
and just lift his front feet off the ground without saying anything. As soon as he's quiet you set him on the ground.
Of course some may suggest "slapping him upside the head"
but I think "isolating the behavior" using a nylon choke chain
will be much more effective.


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

I doubt you'd even have to use a nylon choke at this age. I used the same method wtih his half-brother on a flat collar and it worked fine. 

Laura


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

ann schnerre said:


> i've been blessed to have adopted dogs that "helped" (haha) my pups learn their manners--don't know if Sadie or Gracie had pups, but they didn't/don't put up with crap from my pups (ask ike  )


Ann did those females that teach the pups manners use a nylon choker or a flat collar?
I bet they used a method more like clipping them on the side of the head with a stern warning. I doubt many oave seen this but a good mom, will pick on the weak mercilessly. Everyone today would stop this immediately and deem the mom a poor mother. What she is doing is picking at the weaker pups until they get pissed and stand up to her. After that she will leave them alone. What she is doing is getting them ready to take care of themselves.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

This may be a bit OT.....but I gotta ask. Since a nylon choker and a chain choker both choke with an even, distributed pressure around the neck, does the nylon choke more gently than the chain if the one holding the leash applies the same pressure and isn't an idiot? Or, does it just sound nicer.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Try this: put it around your arm or thigh and give it a good yank (or neck :twisted: :lol. Does it feel like the force is equally distributed to you? It shouldn't in either case. That's the problem with choke/slip collars and why they can damage the trachea.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Try this: put it around your arm or thigh and give it a good yank (or neck :twisted: :lol. Does it feel like the force is equally distributed to you? It shouldn't in either case. That's the problem with choke/slip collars and why they can damage the trachea.


So can flat collars and anything else put around a dogs neck. I am guessing you have worn one and know what you are talking about for a change? :grin:


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Flat collars can, but not as much as choke collars. This is why you put a wide 1.5" to 2" wide leather or similarly made flat collar (or an agitation harness) on a dog when doing protection so they can pull without damaging their airway and not a choke collar. 

I test what all corrective collars feel like, especially e-collars. I have all behavior consultant clients and even some regular vet clients put on any corrective collar (prong collar, slip collar, e-collar) on themselves and try the stim on the e-collar to see what they feel like before they use it on the dog. Corrective collars are often not needed, but if they are, it's important to know what they feel like.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Flat collars can, but not as much as choke collars. This is why you put a wide 1.5" to 2" wide leather or similarly made flat collar (or an agitation harness) on a dog when doing protection so they can pull without damaging their airway and not a choke collar.
> 
> I test what all corrective collars feel like, especially e-collars. I have all behavior consultant clients and even some regular vet clients put on any corrective collar (prong collar, slip collar, e-collar) on themselves and try the stim on the e-collar to see what they feel like before they use it on the dog. Corrective collars are often not needed, but if they are, it's important to know what they feel like.


:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> This may be a bit OT.....but I gotta ask. Since a nylon choker and a chain choker both choke with an even, distributed pressure around the neck, does the nylon choke more gently than the chain if the one holding the leash applies the same pressure and isn't an idiot? Or, does it just sound nicer.


haha. the word is still "choker" 

I think the benefit to a nylon choke is maybethat it doesn't make noise, cluing the dog into something that's about to happen. plus it doesn't do that ratcheting thing. not sure of the word I want but tight, not, tight, not as it slips over the links (depending on how big the links are, whether it's a fursaver or not, etc.)

Just my guesses.

Laura


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I look at the nylon choker as more of a DD dog collar then a correction collar as per the chain choke. 
I don't think they can release near as quickly as the metal choke when used as a "training" collar. 
I don't use either and "IF" I need a collar for correction it would be a pinch. I train in a flat leather or a fursaver.
I've ruined a good dog with a choke collar in the past (many yrs back) so the bottom line is that any and all of them can be used incorrectly.


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## Lisa Brazeau (May 6, 2010)

Chris,

I think you should use these 'I see a dog and I'm freaking out' moments as a training opportunity. Use positive reinforcement and reward your dog for focusing on you and ignoring the rest of the environment, including other dogs. Get engagement. You will have the added bonus of counter-conditioning what I believe is actually a fear response (working dogs tend to surge towards what's bothering them). The cause of the aggression is really immaterial. It's unacceptable no matter the root. But the remedy is the same. Once you've taught the dog that he should pay attention to you and ignore environmental stressors, then you can worry about corrective actions (lifts, slips, chokes, whacks). It's only fair to correct a dog if it knows what it's supposed to be doing. Even Bill Koehler wrote that one down.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Lisa Brazeau said:


> Chris,
> 
> I think you should use these 'I see a dog and I'm freaking out' moments as a training opportunity. Use positive reinforcement and reward your dog for focusing on you and ignoring the rest of the environment, including other dogs. Get engagement. You will have the added bonus of counter-conditioning what I believe is actually a fear response (working dogs tend to surge towards what's bothering them). The cause of the aggression is really immaterial. It's unacceptable no matter the root. But the remedy is the same. Once you've taught the dog that he should pay attention to you and ignore environmental stressors, then you can worry about corrective actions (lifts, slips, chokes, whacks). It's only fair to correct a dog if it knows what it's supposed to be doing. Even Bill Koehler wrote that one down.


I agree. I also don't believe in the turn them loose and play. You're teaching him to engage dogs this way. Also, put two dogs together, one of them will want to be the leader. Ever see play escalate into fight? He can be around dogs, yet learn to ignore them and maintain connection and focus to his handler. 

T


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

That is the path I am going down with this next puppy. You know growing up we never let dogs play with each other and I don't recall ever having a problem and the dogs I have had with dog to dog issues had that as a common denominator. 

It may be that the word socialization should really be habituation. Comfort around a stimulus until it no longer elicits a response.

I had a friend who ran a puppy kindergarten class (she was a behaviorist) and she quit puppy play time altogether because it caused a lot of problems.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> This may be a bit OT.....but I gotta ask. Since a nylon choker and a chain choker both choke with an even, distributed pressure around the neck, does the nylon choke more gently than the chain if the one holding the leash applies the same pressure and isn't an idiot? Or, does it just sound nicer.


Don

The nylon choke is QUIETER, the idea is, the gradual pressure with no warning sound should be seen by the puppy as a consequence of his behavior.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> haha. the word is still "choker"
> 
> I think the benefit to a nylon choke is maybethat it doesn't make noise, cluing the dog into something that's about to happen. plus it doesn't do that ratcheting thing. not sure of the word I want but tight, not, tight, not as it slips over the links (depending on how big the links are, whether it's a fursaver or not, etc.)
> 
> ...


HI Laura

Exactly, I replied to Don's post before I read yours


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I agree. I also don't believe in the turn them loose and play. You're teaching him to engage dogs this way. Also, put two dogs together, one of them will want to be the leader. Ever see play escalate into fight? He can be around dogs, yet learn to ignore them and maintain connection and focus to his handler.
> 
> T


Terrasita

We have a inappropriately aggressive brat 14 WEEK old puppy.
The idea is to let a neutral even tempered ADULT DOG teach the puppy some manners. Any human interaction is counter productive to letting the dog teach the puppy. And NO I've rarely seen dog play escalate into a fight unless humans get involved. Dogs are pack animals there is NOTHING wrong with
one being the "leader" We humans are the ones messing things up by interfering. Any kind of obedience or attention to the
owner is something that should happen AFTER and separate 
from the socialization lesson.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

OK, I'll buy most of the answers, except the first few, since I can't hear either of them. I was just wondering if there was some perception that one was gentler. I also agree that the nylon won't release as quickly.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> I look at the nylon choker as more of a DD dog collar then a correction collar as per the chain choke.
> I don't think they can release near as quickly as the metal choke when used as a "training" collar.
> I don't use either and "IF" I need a collar for correction it would be a pinch. I train in a flat leather or a fursaver.
> I've ruined a good dog with a choke collar in the past (many yrs back) so the bottom line is that any and all of them can be used incorrectly.


Bob 

In this application the nylon choke is NOT used as a correction collar but as a way to administer a consequence to the dogs
inappropriate behavior with minimal connection with the owner. At least that's the theory ;-)


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Well, I have raised a few pups and have raised them all in the same manner re socialisation or habituation or whatever you want to call it. By that I mean I have allowed interaction with their own kind from young, as they got older and I was implementing more control, I would provide distraction and demand more focus on me, but not at four months. None of them have been 'doggy' as has been phrased here, they developed into adults knowing a bit about other dogs and how to interact with them.

At the end of the day, if you have a good relationship with your dog, they are going to favour you over another dog. I think not allowing young pups as they grow to interact with their own kind is a paranoia. jmo

Regarding the op, if it is aggression your pup has then you will find out pretty quickly if you let him off leash with sensible older dogs, and if it isn't, then you will likely lighten his anxiety and curiosity about them, you then must develop into an interesting owner.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Terrasita
> 
> We have a inappropriately aggressive brat 14 WEEK old puppy.
> The idea is to let a neutral even tempered ADULT DOG teach the puppy some manners. Any human interaction is counter productive to letting the dog teach the puppy. And NO I've rarely seen dog play escalate into a fight unless humans get involved. Dogs are pack animals there is NOTHING wrong with
> ...


+1


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Lisa Brazeau said:


> Chris,
> 
> I think you should use these 'I see a dog and I'm freaking out' moments as a training opportunity. Use positive reinforcement and reward your dog for focusing on you and ignoring the rest of the environment, including other dogs. Get engagement.


This rarely goes as well as it sounds...picture the typical scenario the newbie dog owner finds himself involved in, armed with this advice: Going for a walk. Got his treats, toy, whatever. Puppy sparks up on another dog before owner sees it. Owner starts begging for puppy's attention, trying desparately to lure him away with toy or treats, begging the whole time. What starts out as a plan quickly fails. Or perhaps the owner is now walking the puppy, on alert for a stray dog, ready to get the pup's attention before it sees the dog, sending the alert signals down the leash.

Have you explained how to get the pup's focus once it's lost its mind in a frenzy over seeing another dog? 

By the way, who keeps using this term "engagement"? It seems to be the latest buzz word in dog training.

Laura


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## Lisa Brazeau (May 6, 2010)

Hi Laura,
I agree... It rarely goes well when you're trying to teach a kid to swim and you shove him in the deep end.  As I'm typing this response, I can see how my last response could be interpereted as "Get your cookies out and try to stuff the pup into compliance..." LOL

Every kind of training, no matter the method has an order - teach, practice (and practice, and practice) and then proof. The puppy would have to be shown (in a low distraction environment) that activating the handler into a game of 'work' is fun: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2M5cTCdHms
The pup in the video is "engaged" with the trainer. The handler should not 'beg' for attention. In fact the opposite is true. The guy stands there until the dog is giving clear 'LET'S DO IT' signals. Once the dog is pushing the handler to work in low distraction environments, you start to up the anti with distractions. For Chris's pup, I would introduce non-reactive dogs at a distance and then slowly close the gap once he knows the game. 
That said, until the dog is good at focusing on the handler around neutral dogs, I wouldn't be taking it places where it's going to have close doggy encounters of the rotten kind - the kind that just reinforce the barking brattiness.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> By the way, who keeps using this term "engagement"? It seems to be the latest buzz word in dog training.
> Laura


Hi Laura

"Engagement" is a Michael Ellis term for focus, attention and interaction between dog and handler.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Lisa Brazeau said:


> Hi Laura,
> I agree... It rarely goes well when you're trying to teach a kid to swim and you shove him in the deep end.  As I'm typing this response, I can see how my last response could be interpereted as "Get your cookies out and try to stuff the pup into compliance..." LOL
> 
> Every kind of training, no matter the method has an order - teach, practice (and practice, and practice) and then proof. The puppy would have to be shown (in a low distraction environment) that activating the handler into a game of 'work' is fun: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2M5cTCdHms
> ...


Hi Lisa

The "problem" is, people are talking about the owner training
the dog and what actually needs to happen is the older dog
"teach" the puppy some manners with minimal human involvement. Distraction or any kind of training will be a lot
easier once the puppy learns some manners 

FYI Nobody but me and Chris at training last night and we still
didn't get finished till 7:30


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Lisa Brazeau said:


> Hi Laura,
> I agree... It rarely goes well when you're trying to teach a kid to swim and you shove him in the deep end.  As I'm typing this response, I can see how my last response could be interpereted as "Get your cookies out and try to stuff the pup into compliance..." LOL.


I know there was more to it. But does everybody, especially someone new to dogs? That's the point I was trying to make, and thank you for going more in depth with the plan!

I will mention, though, that with this 14 week old pup, the other dog probably doesn't have to be doing anything to get a reaction out of him. I am picturing the puppy lighting up at anything it perceives as a dog no matter what it's doing.

Laura


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> This rarely goes as well as it sounds...picture the typical scenario the newbie dog owner finds himself involved in, armed with this advice: Going for a walk. Got his treats, toy, whatever. Puppy sparks up on another dog before owner sees it. Owner starts begging for puppy's attention, trying desparately to lure him away with toy or treats, begging the whole time. What starts out as a plan quickly fails. Or perhaps the owner is now walking the puppy, on alert for a stray dog, ready to get the pup's attention before it sees the dog, sending the alert signals down the leash.
> 
> Have you explained how to get the pup's focus once it's lost its mind in a frenzy over seeing another dog?
> 
> ...


 
About turns work pretty good. 

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Terrasita
> 
> We have a inappropriately aggressive brat 14 WEEK old puppy.
> The idea is to let a neutral even tempered ADULT DOG teach the puppy some manners. Any human interaction is counter productive to letting the dog teach the puppy. And NO I've rarely seen dog play escalate into a fight unless humans get involved. Dogs are pack animals there is NOTHING wrong with
> ...


 
Sorry, I see no reason for anything outside the dog's pack to teach it manners. So everytime he fires up, let an older dog tell him he's low on the totem pole. Who says he is gonna bow to that. You assume that because he's a puppy, he's going to submit. Some don't. He should be respsonsible to his handler for his behavior, period--not another dog. I've never raised a puppy interacting with dogs outside its pack. On lead, in the same location with other dogs on lead--sure. But turn them loose, let them sort out a pack structure amongst dogs they don't live with and now they are supposed to focus on me???? Besides, I think he's afraid not ohhhhh let me dominate everything in sight. For me that's a brat.

T


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

IDK, if i had a 14 MONTH old pup that wanted to "take on" every/any dog it saw on a walk, i'd probably bust it in the head. or do an "about turn" (that first actually). 

but a 14 WEEK old? really??? this is a BABY pup. it's my job to protect it from aggressive dogs. no dog parks, no leash-less running. T's "about turn".


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Sorry, I see no reason for anything outside the dog's pack to teach it manners. So everytime he fires up, let an older dog tell him he's low on the totem pole. Who says he is gonna bow to that. You assume that because he's a puppy, he's going to submit. Some don't. He should be respsonsible to his handler for his behavior, period--not another dog. I've never raised a puppy interacting with dogs outside its pack. On lead, in the same location with other dogs on lead--sure. But turn them loose, let them sort out a pack structure amongst dogs they don't live with and now they are supposed to focus on me???? Besides, I think he's afraid not ohhhhh let me dominate everything in sight. For me that's a brat.
> 
> T


The reason to let an adult dog teach a puppy manners is they're a lot better at it then humans are (especially first time or inexperienced dog owners). A puppy WILL bow to a stable adult dog, because that's the way it has been for thousands of years. We're NOT talking about turning a puppy lose in a pack of adults. We're talking about ONE stable adult dog and one puppy in a controlled environment. I think the OP is getting ahead of himself taking the puppy out and interacting with
what ever other dogs he meets on his walk. He needs to step
back and do the one dog on one puppy thing.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Ann did those females that teach the pups manners use a nylon choker or a flat collar?
> I bet they used a method more like clipping them on the side of the head with a stern warning. I doubt many oave seen this but a good mom, will pick on the weak mercilessly. Everyone today would stop this immediately and deem the mom a poor mother. What she is doing is picking at the weaker pups until they get pissed and stand up to her. After that she will leave them alone. What she is doing is getting them ready to take care of themselves.


don, both of them were spayed rescue dogs when i got them, but BOTH put a snarky pup in it's place when the pup started getting "oh, i'm all THAT" with them. 

and all it took was an "alpha roll" and/or the bitch telling the pup she'd rip his throat/gut out if he didn't stop the nonsense. or both. and i've never had a pup that didn't "get it". and again--these are both females i rescued after they were spayed. but the pups got it 

i really think it's important to keep pups in the litter to at least 7 weeks old--it's how they learn dog language.

and neither one of those females had a collar on the little bastards. :-#


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

How is Gracie by the way? My husband asked about her not too long ago.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

Gracie is SHEDDING!! i swear she sheds copiously every fricking month except december thru march. no, she's doing well, hips are becoming an issue a bit, snotty little boy-dogs (well, not so little now) are NOT. 

she's just a sweetie--and after bringing her home, we've only sung "fat-bottomed girls make the world go round" to her 10000 times   (and that doesn't include the 100 times we sang it to her on the way home, LOL).


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

ann schnerre said:


> don, both of them were spayed rescue dogs when i got them, but BOTH put a snarky pup in it's place when the pup started getting "oh, i'm all THAT" with them.
> 
> and all it took was an "alpha roll" and/or the bitch telling the pup she'd rip his throat/gut out if he didn't stop the nonsense. or both. and i've never had a pup that didn't "get it". and again--these are both females i rescued after they were spayed. but the pups got it
> 
> ...


That is the way th pups learn Ann. Clipping them upside the head doesn't mean hurt them. The most important part of the scenario is the loud growling the bitches do. Pups may squeal but they aren't getting hurt, it is the growling that makes them think they are going to meet their maker, or, Chris should get used to carrying a couple of lbs of treats and teach the dog the attentive heel so the dog doesn't notice the other dogs, cats, etc.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Bob
> 
> In this application the nylon choke is NOT used as a correction collar but as a way to administer a consequence to the dogs
> inappropriate behavior with minimal connection with the owner. At least that's the theory ;-)



Agreed! That's why I said it was more about DD control then an actual "training" collar.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

"In this application the nylon choke is NOT used as a correction collar but as a way to administer a consequence to the dogs
inappropriate behavior with minimal connection with the owner. At least that's the theory "

Sounds like semantics. Correction vs consequence.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> That is the way th pups learn Ann. Clipping them upside the head doesn't mean hurt them. The most important part of the scenario is the loud growling the bitches do. Pups may squeal but they aren't getting hurt, it is the growling that makes them think they are going to meet their maker, or, Chris should get used to carrying a couple of lbs of treats and teach the dog the attentive heel so the dog doesn't notice the other dogs, cats, etc.


i know this don! and where you say "clipping them upside the head" i say "busting" them upside the head. but some dogs i just have to look at 'em sideways to get the same effect. best dog i ever had i busted in her fricking stubborn german head for a good 2, maybe 3 years. softest dog i ever had--well--look at him hard. 

but pups are all different, and this 14 week old pup (i mean really, not even 4 months old)--this is really not the time to worry about "dog aggression" IMO. ](*,)

or is it and i've been screwing up for <ummm> 40+ years? (oh, my poor dogs...)


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> "In this application the nylon choke is NOT used as a correction collar but as a way to administer a consequence to the dogs
> inappropriate behavior with minimal connection with the owner. At least that's the theory "
> 
> Sounds like semantics. Correction vs consequence.


Actually not Don. A correction should come from you and the dog should know it comes from you. A consequence should be more of a deux ex machina moment brought about by something the dog did.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I see what your talking about, but, just never did it that way. Even using a shock collar years ago, most people don't want the dog to know they are doing the shocking. I wanted them to know. They paid attention to me. Of course I had to set them up when they didn't think I was around and tried reverting. Much like proving them to stay out of the kitchen and the trash. I would leave something they like out in the bad zone, go outside and watch them through a window. Doesn't take but a few times and they quit trying to be sneak by....with or without me. It is like proofing them for livestock when they are off hunting.....I have to know they aren't pulling someones calves down. What you are talking about is foreign to me. I always want them to know it is me and they listen....well.....the ones I make buddies out of do. The yard dogs listen when they want to.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> teach the dog the attentive heel so the dog doesn't notice the other dogs, cats, etc.




Since you are on here, the working dog forum, it should be assumed that the dog will be working. Keep the dog out of situations like this until you are ready. Learn right now that everything is training with your dog. Set up your environmental exposure more carefully and thoughtfully and away from other dogs til you can address this. Go to your training club and seek help there. Most people have an agenda, and it is harder to read this from a few posts, than in person.


Hitting the dog for this behavior can cause avoidance later on in bitework, or make the dog head shy, not good in a pet or worker. As mentioned, it may get worse if you are causing it pain when it sees another dog. If it is a stronger natured dog, you may have no issues with hitting it but I wouldn't recommend it. Unfortunately you won't know until further down the road if you have done any damage by striking your dog.


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## Jami Craig (Jul 5, 2010)

This is where craigslist is actually useful. I was able to find (evaluating them before they actually met my dog of course) 3 neutral adults with good OB to have my puppy interact with. He met them all on leash first, one at a time and was expected to sit and give me eye contact. We did some focus and OB work, then he was allowed off leash with them to play. We worked on recall off leash during the session as well. Because the other dogs were very well trained I was able to call my puppy, all of the other dog would get commands from their owners to down (and become boring) and my puppy would be jackpotted rewards for coming. The first session he had a drag on, later sessions he was given complete freedom. 

As an adult he's a well socialized neutral dog. He's more of the puppy raiser type but seldom physically corrects (usually only older dogs for humping). He can be called out of a group of dogs playing without hesitation. He's great for dogs with questionable manners (my parents dog is afraid of other dogs and reacts aggressively and she loves him) because if they tense or show any signs of discomfort he calmly turns off and walks away until they re-engage. He can be worked in OB in a group unless physically unable (like my housemates dog sitting on his head during downs....-_-but that's not for lack of trying)


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

This sounds like fear/insecurity more than dominance/aggression, well, some aggression is coming from the insecurity, but I mean dominance/true dog aggression.

IMO there are two ways to deal with fear. You either get the dog out and about around the item(s) it fears, keeping that item at the edge of the dogs "safety zone" and then interact with the dog and teach it to ignore what it fears. That what it fears isn't going to hurt it, and it can ignore it safely. Then slowly work it closer and closer to the item, while reinforcing focus on the handler, and ignoring the item.

Or you get the dog out, and in a safe and controlled manner, encourage it to interact with the item it fears, in different locations, different items, etc so it learns the item really isn't to be feared.

Both techniques will build confidence in the pup. IMO though there is one basic flaw in the first technique. For some dogs, it will build confidence to the point the dog can later interact with the item without issue, but for others it's confidence is rooted in the idea it will never have to interact, and if that situation ever does arise, where an interaction happens, you may see the hole in the technique. 

In this situation the item is other dogs, but it could be loud vehicles, high surfaces, people, whatever.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

maggie fraser said:


> Fuk me dead!


 ????


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> This sounds like fear/insecurity more than dominance/aggression, well, some aggression is coming from the insecurity, but I mean dominance/true dog aggression.
> 
> IMO there are two ways to deal with fear. You either get the dog out and about around the item(s) it fears, keeping that item at the edge of the dogs "safety zone" and then interact with the dog and teach it to ignore what it fears. That what it fears isn't going to hurt it, and it can ignore it safely. Then slowly work it closer and closer to the item, while reinforcing focus on the handler, and ignoring the item.
> 
> ...


This is essentially what it boils down to. Even with technique 1 & 2, I want to be sure of the neutrality of the other dogs. That means, I really know the other dogs and their handlers. I won't leave this to a chance meeting or assessment because if wrong--it could be disaster for what you are trying to instill in the puppy. You can instill in the dog an alternative behavior for that situation. I don't know about others but my dogs don't HAVE to come into that much contact with other dogs. In herding with working with dogs in the set out pens or the set out dog that is on the field, the dogs are more concerned about the livestock than another dog. The work displaces the dog concern. Off stock, working for the handler can have the same effect. An alternative rewarded behavior is more beneficial than the correction. On an adult dog that can be prey triggered by toy dogs, I've worked with a "no, leave it" which was previously trained off my cat w/ mark reward until I could walk her past them hitched to her cart and she didn't look at them. No or even a physical correction, alone, when she is prey amped, is worthless. Give an alternative behavior that is rewarded has a lot more mileage in getting rid of the unwanted behavior.

Correction vs. consequence---in most cases, I think the dog knows its coming from the handler. I'm one for if I'm correcting or controlling a consequence, I want the dog to know its coming from me and that whatever he is doing, I want him ot stop.

T


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## Chris Adlam (May 6, 2011)

While I've had GSD's in the past, I'm certainly no expert, so I really appreciate all the advice; especially with a dog that has a little more drive than the average dog. 

I don't anticipate having "play dates" at the park with other dogs. What I really want to avoid is taking him for a walk or sitting at the local coffee house when he's 2.5 years old and 90 pounds and having him light up because he sees another dog. 

Even at this young age, his focus on me is very good. It's been really natural for him from very early on. I now realize how important it is, and I've been working on strengthening it even more. 





Lisa Brazeau said:


> Chris,
> 
> I think you should use these 'I see a dog and I'm freaking out' moments as a training opportunity. Use positive reinforcement and reward your dog for focusing on you and ignoring the rest of the environment, including other dogs. Get engagement. You will have the added bonus of counter-conditioning what I believe is actually a fear response (working dogs tend to surge towards what's bothering them). The cause of the aggression is really immaterial. It's unacceptable no matter the root. But the remedy is the same. Once you've taught the dog that he should pay attention to you and ignore environmental stressors, then you can worry about corrective actions (lifts, slips, chokes, whacks). It's only fair to correct a dog if it knows what it's supposed to be doing. Even Bill Koehler wrote that one down.





Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I agree. I also don't believe in the turn them loose and play. You're teaching him to engage dogs this way. Also, put two dogs together, one of them will want to be the leader. Ever see play escalate into fight? He can be around dogs, yet learn to ignore them and maintain connection and focus to his handler.
> 
> T





Kadi Thingvall said:


> This sounds like fear/insecurity more than dominance/aggression, well, some aggression is coming from the insecurity, but I mean dominance/true dog aggression.
> 
> IMO there are two ways to deal with fear. You either get the dog out and about around the item(s) it fears, keeping that item at the edge of the dogs "safety zone" and then interact with the dog and teach it to ignore what it fears. That what it fears isn't going to hurt it, and it can ignore it safely. Then slowly work it closer and closer to the item, while reinforcing focus on the handler, and ignoring the item.
> 
> ...


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> ????


Old Australian proverb .


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## Lisa Brazeau (May 6, 2010)

If the fallout from training a dog to ignore the thing that's bothering them, and work for me, and they NEVER get to play at the dog park or run up on other dogs on our walks, because the fear/aggression isn't truly mitigated, I am *okay* with that. 

Why does the dog NEED to interact with the dogs on it's walk? Or any dog outside of it's family circle for that matter? Who says those dogs aren't to be feared? I can't even guesstimate the number of dog-dog aggression cases (pets) we have on the calendar at our facility right now. Due to (in my opinion) a learned response after a number of inappropriate interactions with dogs outside their social circle.

Dogs out in the world - Most of the people you would meet on your walk know nothing about appropriate canine interaction. They usually think their dog is being friendly when it's being a dick, in which case you don't want your dog interacting with that dog anyway. The dog park is Lord of the Flies...... 

The only way I would put this puppy with another dog to teach it manners, is if I knew that the puppy was going to have a relationship with that dog in the future, and I needed them to get along for that reason. The idea that putting the puppy with a stable adult to teach it to get along with all other dogs just doesn't jive (for me).You're assuming the puppy will take that experience, and apply it to the rest of it's interactions with other dogs. How many working dog folks have unsocial dogs (don't like people)? I know quite a few. By that logic, if your puppy isn't social, you should take it out with some person, and let that person wail on it when it aggresses, and then that 'lesson' will bleed into every situation where it meets a new person..... Hmmmmm :-s

My GSD (intact) and my Presa are AWESOME with other well-behaved dogs, and I never took them to the dog park, or put them with other dogs that they don't hang out with on a regular basis. They're not overly-excited, nor fearful or aggressive when meeting other dogs.

My malinois was doing the exact same thing Chris's pup is doing, and so I took the 'train to ignore' approach. My mal is great with my dogs (her pack), but I would never introduce her to another dog and 'let them work it out.':-o I spent waaaaay too much time and money on her, only to potentially have her ruined by the experience, or injured? No thanks. Sometimes you get what you get. And if your pup isn't an extrovert, don't FORCE him to hang out with dogs outside of his family.



Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Give an alternative behavior that is rewarded has a lot more mileage
> in getting rid of the unwanted behavior.
> T


AGREED. Getting a dog to STOP doing anything is difficult. It's a much faster, easier, more pleasant experience for both parties to teach an alternative behavior. 

99% of all dog behaviors are _normal canine behaviors, _including aggression. Asking them to stop being prey-driven, or stop being aggressive, is asking them to stop being...a DOG, to an extent. I don't care how good of a trainer one is. There is a limit to how un-dog you can make them.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

> AGREED. Getting a dog to STOP doing anything is difficult.


LOL. No it isn't. It is easy.

Dogs and people fear the unknown. How do you overcome it? By exposing it so whatever it is isn't unknown. It isn't rocket science. People just don't understand that it is difficult to stop an unwanted action because you can't give it treats for it. You can only treat for "wanted behavior". Thus you clog the dogs head up with desired alternative desired behaviors....wasting time while you could have been actually training the dog.

Dogs, like people, resort to posturing when unsure/uncomfortable. Dogs on leashes/behind fences are a lot tougher than when loose. You can see it with two combatants in a bar. They stand 10 feet from eachnother and throw punches like they are serious. It is laughable. Then their friend grab them and pull them back and they are both 10 times tougher and going to tear the other guy limb from limb. The friend should just turn them loose again because nothing is going to happen. Dogs are no different.....as a general rule.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Chris,

Part of my puppy socialization is the puppy laying at my feet in public places like cafes. Start now. We have a restaurant in Forest Park [The Boathouse] that is right off a lake where folks doing boating and what not. People who sit next to the water feed the ducks and geese. Its pretty dog friendly and popular amongst the dog folks. I noticed a week ago that lunch is also pretty popular for the elderly. So in addition to lots of dogs, waterfowl, there's wheelchairs, canes and walkers going by. The seating is pretty tight. There's just enough room for Khira to lay down between my table and the one next to us during a crowded lunch. All during lunch there are dogs, servers and people going by two feet away from her nose. Her biggest challenge is to ignore the waterfowl [her favorite prey trigger] that fly onto the sidewalk to get closer to the people feeding her. The people with dogs are all pet folks. Most just keep walking by but every now and then I have to say, noooooo, she's not here to play or interact with your dog. Last week some guy walked his lab up to a min pin to touch noses. 10 seconds later, the min pin was trying ot take his face off. It all looked good for 10 seconds. There is a mental communication between dogs that people can't always read. Khira is pretty dog neutral unless they put out dominance vibes. I raised her from a 7 week old puppy and she can do any public environment--dogs or no dogs. A lot can be said for handler demeanor and leadership in any situation and that has nothing to do with corrections, per se. They know when you are handling a situation and when you are not. I've had a couple of dogs that I got when they they were older and they came with the don't like other dogs baggage. They did what I told them to do and I didn't allow other dogs to get within their zone of reaction. As Lisa touched upon there are certain things within the dog's character that you don't change. Some situations you can conquer and the dog gets over it. Some things, the best you are going to get is , in that situation, although you are uncomfortable or instinctively do something else, here is the acceptable behavior. 

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> LOL. No it isn't. It is easy.
> 
> Dogs and people fear the unknown. How do you overcome it? By exposing it so whatever it is isn't unknown. It isn't rocket science. People just don't understand that it is difficult to stop an unwanted action because you can't give it treats for it. You can only treat for "wanted behavior". Thus you clog the dogs head up with desired alternative desired behaviors....wasting time while you could have been actually training the dog.
> 
> Dogs, like people, resort to posturing when unsure/uncomfortable. Dogs on leashes/behind fences are a lot tougher than when loose. You can see it with two combatants in a bar. They stand 10 feet from eachnother and throw punches like they are serious. It is laughable. Then their friend grab them and pull them back and they are both 10 times tougher and going to tear the other guy limb from limb. The friend should just turn them loose again because nothing is going to happen. Dogs are no different.....as a general rule.


 

Nope it isn't rocket science. I don't think you'll ever understand the concept of extinguished behaviors or building associations in certain contexts. I don't think you'll ever understand that you can stop an unwanted behavior that happens with certain stimuli by rewarding an alternative behavior to the point that in the future and in the presence of that same stimuli or context, instead of doing the unwanted behavior, the dog will perform the rewarded behavior. The dog desires reward more than performing the unwanted unreinforced behavior. So, you expose and establish what you want the dog to do in that context or with that stimulus. I don't disagree that whacking them upside the head can stop a behavior for SOME dogs. But it can work it worse for others. I try to train with working with telling the puppy what right is, not what wrong is.

T


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Chris Adlam said:


> While I've had GSD's in the past, I'm certainly no expert, so I really appreciate all the advice; especially with a dog that has a little more drive than the average dog.
> 
> I don't anticipate having "play dates" at the park with other dogs. *What I really want to avoid is taking him for a walk or sitting at the local coffee house when he's 2.5 years old and 90 pounds and having him light up because he sees another dog. *
> 
> Even at this young age, his focus on me is very good. It's been really natural for him from very early on. I now realize how important it is, and I've been working on strengthening it even more.


I would not worry about this happening, no matter how you handle it..

But I would work on sitting at the coffee shop NOW with him, and not allowing that to happen...

I do not agree that there are not many dogs that want to fight...there are a lot of dogs that want to fight, especially if challenged..not saying it is your dog...

if you try everything else, and in the end you have a dog that was not scared, if you have one that is just is not nice... you can always use a "leave it" and enforce it..

I agree it is great to have an older dog that likes puppies, but doesn't take too much shit from them to help teach a pup...it sucks when you have a pushover dog that feels no pain and likes running around the yard with puppies hanging off of his neck and face..that doesn't help much 

I sat in a crowded vets office this morning with a bunch of idiots today, and the dog was fine...I only put the muzzle on when we went into the xray room.


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## Lisa Brazeau (May 6, 2010)

Don is predictable as the sky is blue. YAWN.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Lisa Brazeau said:


> If the fallout from training a dog to ignore the thing that's bothering them, and work for me, and they NEVER get to play at the dog park or run up on other dogs on our walks, because the fear/aggression isn't truly mitigated, I am *okay* with that.


Although I don't care either way if my dogs ever go to a dog park or want to play with dogs they meet during their walks (I prefer they not), my attitude is if my dog is afraid of something, I want to build it's confidence about that item. If possible, not through avoidance, which in my experience can simply be false confidence, but through actual positive experiences with it. 

I can't count the number of times I've seen a loose dog run up to another dog in the parking lot of a trial, or even during a trial (dog breaks a stay in AKC group exercises, dog breaks a stay during Sch obedience, etc) or had loose dogs run up to me during a walk. Or while my dogs are swimming at the beach. Or ... Then there are the times like T mentioned where my dogs are working in very close proximity to another strange dog in herding.

If through focusing on me the dog has truly learned to be confident around other dogs, great. But if all I've done is mask the issue, what is going to happen when the dog is in a situation where it can't ignore the other dog, who has it's nose up my dogs butt, or has body slammed it, etc? If we are just out and about then if it takes awhile for my dog to recover it's not a big deal. But if we were just getting ready to go into a trial, or were in the middle of a trial, and now my dog is all freaked out because it actually had to deal with another dog, I've got a problem.

I'm not advocating that another dog be allowed to "teach this pup a lesson". Not if the pups behavior is based in fear. But a solid, stable, adult with good dog skills is going to realize this pup is afraid, and react accordingly. I've seen dogs, who wanted to engage a fearful puppy, actually lay down on the ground and make little noises at the pup, like they were saying "see, I'm not a threat, I'm cool come on over". Course I've seen the same dog tell a pup they were tired of to back the heck off LOL


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Yeh, can't help it Lisa, I sit and read umpteen pages of everyone psyco analysing a 14 week old pup and Chris gets umpteen different suggestions. It is laughable. It is a 14 week old pup for gods sake. It isn't like Chris is walking King Kong around on a leash where he has to be caged and coddled. This is when pups learn to have manners but every one is so afraid the pup may have a bad experience. If the dog is worth having, he will survive most things without a hitch.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Although I don't care either way if my dogs ever go to a dog park or want to play with dogs they meet during their walks (I prefer they not), my attitude is if my dog is afraid of something, I want to build it's confidence about that item. If possible, not through avoidance, which in my experience can simply be false confidence, but through actual positive experiences with it.
> 
> I can't count the number of times I've seen a loose dog run up to another dog in the parking lot of a trial, or even during a trial (dog breaks a stay in AKC group exercises, dog breaks a stay during Sch obedience, etc) or had loose dogs run up to me during a walk. Or while my dogs are swimming at the beach. Or ... Then there are the times like T mentioned where my dogs are working in very close proximity to another strange dog in herding.
> 
> ...


The two dogs that I had that had issues with other dogs, this was a trait already established when I got them. Both dogs were super driven herding dogs. The first one I took to one of those puppy classes when they first became in vogue. Problem #1, she was completely not motivated by food. Problem #2, turned loose in a room full of dogs/puppies she didn't know and was afraid of was going to be a disaster. She was 12 weeks when I got her from a friend. Didn't like what I saw, but me being me, thought I could fix it with her being my personal dog instead of a kennel puppy. She got over the dog thing and I didn't really connect with her until that instinct test on sheep. Sheep changed her world and upped her confidence in all things, including dealing with my alpha bitch. Rory, never really got over it--9 months old when I got him. He was always around dogs with with we do. His issue was he drew a foot circle around himself that he didn't want them to invade. On the field with livestock, you could have run a pack of dogs under his nose. Off the field dogs running up to his nose, he went to fight survival and you would have had to knock him unconscious once he was in that mode. I don't think socialization and contact can change everything and I spend the first couple of years introducing them and working them around anything and everything I can think of. Nor does anything physical cure them or stop the behavior--especially a dog in survival fight mode. One of the reasons I hate AKC obedience is the sits/downs. Mine were never going to go to another dog but if one came to Rory---forget it. You have to know what your dog can handle and don't put him in the situations he can't. My club members love to turn the BCs and terriers loose for the frisbee frap sessions. I'm pretty good at convincing a loose dog he should run somewhere else and I'm always on the lookout. 

What happens with a dog confident dog when another dog tries to body slam it or put its nose up his butt. A confident dog generally tells that dog to back off. If it doesn't, it can escalate. Body slammed??? I'm not sure in what situation this can happen but again even with a confident dog, there can be baggage. For my dogs, I control the dog-to-dog interactions. There have been very few surprises. 

I think Chris' puppy is young enough to deal with it. How he matures given his genetics is a wait and see kinda thing. Meanwhile, I'd train him in the presence of dogs. Sure first and foremost you want to build confidence through positive contact but like Lisa said, who said every dog out there is approaching neutral. And I still say the mode I want the dog in for any sport--is dogs don't exist for him. With puppies, I pick out the dogs for exposure, but its minimal contact and its dogs I know really well from a dog-to-dog perspective.

T


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> This sounds like fear/insecurity more than dominance/aggression, well, some aggression is coming from the insecurity, but I mean dominance/true dog aggression.
> 
> IMO there are two ways to deal with fear. You either get the dog out and about around the item(s) it fears, keeping that item at the edge of the dogs "safety zone" and then interact with the dog and teach it to ignore what it fears. That what it fears isn't going to hurt it, and it can ignore it safely. Then slowly work it closer and closer to the item, while reinforcing focus on the handler, and ignoring the item.
> 
> ...


Yes I have had a fear aggressive pup. She was like this from a young age. I did the safety zone thing but with a different angle - I didnt teach the dog to ignore. I got the dog to look at and acknowledge that the other dog/person was there and then focus on me which I reinforced with reward. This worked quite well. I did this in a lot of different places. She turned out pretty good but she was genetically fearful as was her father so that didnt help. I did a lot of obedince training with her as well and she was pretty easy to walk in public in the end. Hitting or physical correction didnt help her at all.

However I do have a pretty confident young male and he is fine with female dogs and most males but with a few full on males he would react with some aggression if he is on lead. I did use instant correction and a vocal reprimand in this instance. I simply was not going to tolerate that behaviour and I made that crystal clear and he has got much better. I do however also work with him alot around other dogs when I go to trials and the more he focusses on me the more I reward him with his favourite tug. 

Two very different dogs.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> What happens with a dog confident dog when another dog tries to body slam it or put its nose up his butt. A confident dog generally tells that dog to back off. If it doesn't, it can escalate.


Actually short of an actual attack by the other dog, I expect my dogs to keep doing whatever I told them to do. This is where you see the difference between having taught the dog to ignore what it fears to work through it, vs interacting with the item and gaining confidence that way. How it reacts to the specific situation at that moment in time is just as much training, but how fast it recovers from a situation where it can't ignore the item is where you'll see the difference.



Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Body slammed??? I'm not sure in what situation this can happen but again even with a confident dog, there can be baggage.


I've seen it happen multiple times at Schutzhund trials, one dog breaks the down during another dogs recall and slams into the other dog. It happened to my sister when she was trialing, her dog was actually sitting in front of her when the other dog slammed into him. Oh, and he maintained his "front" . I've also seen it happen at herding, two dogs more focused on the livestock then looking where they are going t-bone each other. And with less impact I've seen it quite a few times in AKC group exercises, one dog is holding the stay while another jumps all over it.

Yes, there can be some baggage, but a confident dog will shake the experience off a LOT faster and continue on with the trial, a less confident dog may not be able to recover enough to continue the trial, and may have residual issues for a long time, not just the next couple minutes.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Slight change of subject on the AKC sits and downs
Thunder was on the CDX, out of sight long down.
Time elapsed and the steward came to get us. She commented on what a good job my dog did. WTH, it's a long down.
Got back to the ring and the Terv that was downed next to Thunder was now laying "directly" in front of him and swishing his tail in Thunder's face. Thunder didn't move an inch other then to turn his head away from the Terv's tail. Took first place in open that day.
Apparently the Terv got up and when the Steward went to collect it he then downed damn near on top of Thunder's front feet. The judged decided to let it be since non of the other dogs seemed to be disturbed by it.


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