# Extras?



## Johan Dekinder (Sep 17, 2007)

Hi,

Does anyone feed extras or maybe add certain supplements during periods of very intense training?

Thanks.


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## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

Konnie posted this a little while back... 

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/showthread.php?t=2251


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## Johan Dekinder (Sep 17, 2007)

Thanks Lacey, sorry if a similar question has already been posted.., I'm a newbie here & will do a search from now on..


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## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

Sorry....did not mean to come off as if the question had been posted.....just thought that Konnie's post would be a good contribution to your question/thread.


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## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

maltodextrin supplement immediately post exercise


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## Johan Dekinder (Sep 17, 2007)

So simple sugars Lynn?

When I went to see my malinois' bro & father, and had a very nice training out there, they all put some kind of electrolytes-mix in the water after training.. Kinda imitating the Isostar/Gatorade/.. stuff sporters use after training.
Anyone else does this?

J


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## Johan Dekinder (Sep 17, 2007)

No probs Lacey. Just read the post/topic.
What can I say .. I totally agree. My dogs get ProPlan salmon & rice which is pretty high in fat (around 20%) , mostly coming from omega 3.
Further, I agree with the fact that dogs don't need higher carbs in order to stay healthy/perform well. Extra fats is a different story.

What I wanted to hear about in my topic is f.e. : 
a) do some of you supplement with extra vit c, echanicea, or other natural sups during intense training periods?
b) maybe some of you just give some extra grs. of food..

Don't know, but would love to hear  

Regards, J


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## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

This explains it better than I would attempt – some of the name brand supplements have other stuff in them and are probably very good but very pricey when you have to give it to a lot of dogs. We are just getting bulk maltodextrin and flavouring it with ckicken broth and making ice cubes with it. You are supposed to give it within 30 minutes of the exercise and rest the dog so they don’t burn it off. Not supposed to give it with fat as that will interfere. 

glycogen repletion
http://grande.nal.usda.gov/ibids/index.php?mode2=detail&origin=ibids_references&therow=46644


other interesting stuff 
http://lib.bioinfo.pl/auid:1425700


interesting article – same stuff as what Konnie posted
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/30/3/419

I have never tried electrolytes but have seen some spirited discussions on other forums as to wether they are good or bad....

In addition to the supplements in the raw diet we add vit E and we use a good dose of herring oil in our mix
http://www.iditarod.com/learn/vet-11.html

There was some interesting posts on probiotics that are worthwhile reading over, too


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

In times of intense physical conditioning, I add or increase vitamin B, biotin, C, E, salmon oil. I feed meats rich in vitamin B, add natural supplements like kelp alfalfa and plain yogurt. I top that off with pill supplements.

i've played around with it. The B vitamin makes the biggest difference. I can visually see a difference after a week. At the beginning of weight pull season my 30#-er's harnesses is about 3" too big around the neck/shoulders - she can walk right out of it. A couple weeks and it fits her again. (BTW - that's the dog in my avatar)

Here is on of my dogs "out of shape." This dog has a coat like a lab - which gets shaved in the spring so I can watch his weight and muscle tone closely.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

And to add - I don't do much or any endurance work with my dogs. High jump, disc, agility, flyball, weight pull, canicross (and I can't run far). I'm going for strengthening the dog's structure and getting powerful bursts of energy.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

The B vitamins may help for energy as many B vitamins are necessary cofactors in the various metabolic pathways. I personally also increase the fish oil consumption during times of seasonal change (like early fall and early spring) and may increase ester C. I know I try to personally try to take ester C this time of year. A lot of my classmates at the vet school are sick now and *knock on wood* I am not, so hopefully it helps. Incidentally, Anne, I'd be wary of shaving a coat on a bully breed as they have such sensitive skin anyways and are prone to skin cancer. That's taking away their natural sunblock. Unless you're slathering on the Coppertone, that is.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Here is on of my dogs "out of shape." This dog has a coat like a lab - which gets shaved in the spring so I can watch his weight and muscle tone closely. [img said:


> http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1129/977972012_65766e161b.jpg[/img]



Anne,

Cool pic. I am curious as to why you would shave that dog's coat? I know you said to watch weight and muscle tone, but could this not be done with hands/feel and judging perfomance? Lab coats are not so long....

I have a poofy, double coated dog, and I would never shave him so I have no choice but to feel him and go by performance. I AM often jealous of those very short coated breeds, they look so powerful if they are in proper shape, and everything IS right there to see.

Also, could you (or others) tell be what kind of B vitamin you use out of curiosity? I had an alternitive vet reccommend it for my dog once, but I did not really buy into it at the time.

Thanks!


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

I tried to edit to ask if shaving is something that is commonly done to see the dog's conditioning in the sports in which you participate?


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Well, high jump isn't exactly a commonly done sport and I take it a bit more seriously than most. IMO, just seeing what the dog can do without putting serious thought into it is just asking for a serious injury. I don't think I have seen shaving done before. I'm weird. I know. :lol:

When high jumping or discing I keep him as thin as possible and muscular as possible - but it's hard to keep him that way. His weight can slip fast. When his coat is shaved it's really easy for me to see. What I'm looking for on him is a 1/4" indent behind his last rib. A 3 on the body scale. Plus I want to see the "8-pack" of small muscles that lie over the dog's rib cage on the lower third of the body. That's my indicator that his muscle tone is good. In the photo I posted, it doesn't show. He was really out of shape at the time. It _could_ be done by feel, but I feel better being able to see it since I am trying to watch it so closely.

This photo was taken on the same day so the "8-pack" doesn't show clearly. It does show a bit as the shadow behind his elbow.










Thanks for the warning about his skin, Maren. I _think_ the undercoat the doesn't shed out is thick enough. He hasn't sunburned, but I'll remember to watch that more carefully noxt summer.

B vitamins - 

I get the super-B complex and biotin supplements for people. Vitamin B is water soluable. So the animal will use whatever is can and the rest "makes expensive pee." It doesn't build up in the body like the fat soluable vitamins so there is little to no concern of overdose.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Anne Vaini said:


> Well, high jump isn't exactly a commonly done sport and I take it a bit more seriously than most. IMO, just seeing what the dog can do without putting serious thought into it is just asking for a serious injury. I don't think I have seen shaving done before. I'm weird. I know. :lol:
> 
> When high jumping or discing I keep him as thin as possible and muscular as possible - but it's hard to keep him that way. His weight can slip fast. When his coat is shaved it's really easy for me to see. What I'm looking for on him is a 1/4" indent behind his last rib. A 3 on the body scale. Plus I want to see the "8-pack" of small muscles that lie over the dog's rib cage on the lower third of the body. That's my indicator that his muscle tone is good. In the photo I posted, it doesn't show. He was really out of shape at the time. It _could_ be done by feel, but I feel better being able to see it since I am trying to watch it so closely.


Most dog people are at least a little weird!!! (My slef included of course) Thanks for the further explinations and vit B info.


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## Ren Sauder (Apr 5, 2007)

With my guys I give fattier cuts of raw beef (I love my butcher!) as well as a bit of extra muscle meat. That is about all I increase during the winter (our intense working season). Year round however they do get Salmon and Fish Oil Capsules and glucosomine. Still researching if I want to add any other supplements although with what I have done up until now they are already doing quite well on.


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## Johan Dekinder (Sep 17, 2007)

@ Ren : 
glucosamine on its own has no real benefits. I would look for a glucosamine/chondroitine blend (can easily be found on websites that sell food supplements for sporters .. - much cheaper..).
A little off topic : besides the glucosamine/chondroitine mix I now also give the following to my oldest bitch for joint care/arthrose : 
_Cissus_ has been shown to support healthy tendons, ligaments, cartilage and joints and is highly recommend from users who have used it to recover from injury.

Test results show Cissus Quadrangularis contains high amounts of carotene A, vitamin C, anabolic substances and calcium. These steroidal principles from Cissus quadrangularis showed a marked influence in the rate of fracture - healing by influencing early regeneration of all connective tissues. Cissus has also shown to help support healthy muscle and bone. Cissus is shown to neutralise the anti-anabolic effect of steroids like cortisone in healing of fractures.


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## Ren Sauder (Apr 5, 2007)

Thanks Johan, I should have specified as I do give the blend. This is what I use

http://www.wnpharmaceuticals.com/product_details.asp?id=535&cat=53

I give it not because my dogs have joint problems but simply to help keep their joints strong since we are so active in the pulling sports.


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## Johan Dekinder (Sep 17, 2007)

Great Ren, I had a quick look at the product and it's indeed a blend, so perfect.

I think it's a great supplement, used it a lot myself when I was into powerlifting (puts a lot of pressure on the joints).
As yourself, I also give it to my other dogs, take it as some kind of 'insurance'. Better be safe than sorry ;-) 

Jo


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## Ren Sauder (Apr 5, 2007)

Cool, thanks for the info! I will deffinately also keep Cissus in mind for any injured or older dogs, sounds like great stuff! 

What is your opinion on Glucosomine Chondroitin with Sulfate?? When I consulted a friend of mine regarding which blend of Glucosomine to use she directed me towards Chondroitin but I never found out whether Sulfate is bad or if the absence of it is simply better??


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## Gary Garner (Jun 30, 2007)

anyone heard of giving a pup or young dog VIT C tablets to help the joints ?


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## Johan Dekinder (Sep 17, 2007)

Glucosamine sulfate is the form you need, most commonly used too.
Here's a part of an article :
Glucosamine is formed when glucose combines with an amino acid. It is a building block for cartilage. Glucosamine sulfate is a form of glucosamine that has some extremely beneficial uses, especially for healing connective tissue.

Glucosamine sulfate is a small and simple molecular building block used to aid body builders and athletes with joint pain by helping to repair and lubricate the cartilage around damaged joints.

The body absorbs glucosamine sulfate quickly and efficiently when ingested.

Jo


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## Johan Dekinder (Sep 17, 2007)

@ Gary
Yes, vit C is a nice addition to help joint pain (or prevent).
Needed for a pup or young dog?...I do, it won't hurt (again as an insurance ..).


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