# When and where to introduce Malinois



## Bryan Colletti (Feb 16, 2007)

It is pretty accepted that the Malinois would improve the genetics of the GSD and bring back some vigor.

However, where do you start, what lines do you start with, which breed of GSD do you choose to improve?

I would love to do a GSD/Mal breeding, yet finding homes for the pups is very hard to do. 

I did read with much interest Dr. Rieser's article on the introduction of the Malinois Blood into the GSD. But, what if any strategy did he mention?

Bryan


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## Bryan Colletti (Feb 16, 2007)

I would have to think for any real impact, many many kennels would have to hop on board with this idea and for many generations.

Bryan


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

One of the most impressive Police K9's I ever worked was a GSD/Mali cross from KNPV lines.

The GSD/Mali cross happens all the time in Holland, they don't seem to really care much about pedigrees there :lol:


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

i think you start with either a good, czech lined GSD from the polize straze lines or a VERY high quality west german working line. maybe a heavily karthago or tiekerhook line. the dog HAS to have: SOLID nerves, mellow non-sharp (but not dull) temperament, med-high capability to be worked in defense, and at least mediocre hips. the mal should be the craziest high prey, moderate to low defense, mediocre or better nerves, and no health problems. these qualities should be demonstrated for at least 3 generations on both dogs. both dogs should at least be accepting of petting from strangers, but doesn't need to seek it out.

^^^keep in mind this is coming from a guy who has NEVER bred dogs. what i'd like to get out of this breeding would be high (but not super high) prey drive, rock solid nerves, medium defense, minimal health problems, aloof to strangers, and able to relax.

ideally, i'd like a med/high drive mal with a nice GSD on/off switch


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Or you can just get a Mal, and kennel them using this guideline:


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Bryan Colletti said:


> I would love to do a GSD/Mal breeding, yet finding homes for the pups is very hard to do.


I'll take all the good ones and raise them - you know I'm a sucker for that. As for the not-so-good ones, well we'll just cull them, right?


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Bryan Colletti said:


> It is pretty accepted that the Malinois would improve the genetics of the GSD and bring back some vigor.


What sort of vigor are you looking for in this type of breeding? Are you trying to improve on health, or drive, or ?? Would you be hoping to produce dogs that still looked like GSD?

I have nothing against the shepawahs, I've seen some really nice ones. But I really don't understand why the GSD needs some Mali influence. Is the breed really in that bad of a state? And what is the Mali going to add that can't be gotten by breeding to another GSD? When I look around at the working GSD breeders, they don't seem to be having any problems finding stud dogs for their females. I think some of the dogs I see are to big/angulated to really be athletic, but that could be fixed by breeding to GSD that are more moderate.

So my question back to you would be "what does the Mali have that you feel the GSD lacks?" And I don't mean the GSD as a whole, because there are certain subsets of the GSD population that aren't even intended for work. But the dogs that are being specifically bred for work, by people who know what they are doing, not just someone who says they are breeding working dogs.


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## Bryan Colletti (Feb 16, 2007)

Kadi your thoughts process is too short sighted or narrow. Dr. Reiser assessment of the current condition of the breed, was not a critique of one said breeders puppies. It's an overall perpetuall landing place of where there breed in general has landed due to many many generations of show and sport breeding.

So agreed, you may indeed find breeders you know well, who have no problems finding a quality stud, for their needs. But, the vision layed out is not for the success of one breeder having sellable nice puppies, but stemming the tide of a once great breed that has morphed into several sub breeds and with no gene pool left to turn this tide.

This is not a proposal to fix one breeders next litter, but to fix a breed itself.

If you care to see the problems first hand, drop your current breedings, and invest thousands of dollars for over valued GSDs, from the best current kennels you can find, then start breeding these dogs. Then be prepared to offer a new pup for each one sent back with health problems or temperament issues.

You do bring up an interesting point, in that, I don't think any of the kennels previously mentioned would be at all interested in applying such ideas. Try asking some of the best GSDs breeding to use a Malinois, you may get sent of the property by pitchfork.

Hence, my point, that this idea would take generations to see an impact and would take the dedication of those willing to see it through.

Bryan


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I wasn't talking about any one specific breeder or breeding, but the working GSD as a whole. When talking about what the Malinois might bring to the GSD, I don't think there is any point in talking about what it might bring to the show segment of the breed, because I don't see that they are that worried about working ability in the first place. And I can't see them liking the conformation of a shepawah. So IMO this discussion would be about what the Malinois can bring to the working segment of the breed. And that goes back to my original question. What do you think the Malinois would bring to the GSD? Are you looking for it to bring health, drive, structure, ??? You started this thread with "It is pretty accepted that the Malinois would improve the genetics of the GSD and bring back some vigor" My question is "how would the Malinois improve the genetics of the GSD"? What would the Malinois bring that can't be found already in the GSD? If I had an idea of what you expected to get from the Malinois part of this combination, I might have an idea of what lines of Malinos to go to, to get those qualities.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Well, Reiser can pretty much kiss my ass. Never have been a big fan of his to begin with, and most Germans I talked to way back when said that it was his thought process that was destroying the GSD in the first place.

I have seen enough good GSD's to know that the "occasional" cross that works well is not that much more impressive than the dogs it came from.

As far as the Mal in the GSD........you are kidding yourself if you believe that the Belgians didn't do this some time ago. I am not condemming anyone, but does anyone really believe that A'Tim is straight Mal???? Have you seen his offspring???

I believe that the biggest problem for the GSD is not just the breeder, but the consumer. How many people are going to buy a puppy from bloodlines they have never heard of??? Somebody has to be a winner in there somewhere of something.


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## Michelle Kutelis (Sep 28, 2006)

Ok, I'll bite, and keep in mind I not only own GSDs, I breed working lines occasionally. I also own and train a Malinois.

I met my husband when he started schutzhund, and joined the club I was in. His first GSD working line puppy (from good breeder and good pedigree) had UAP. He spent $1800 fixing the first elbow, tears and heartache, before the orthopedic vet that did the surgery said, "uh, his hips are horrible..." More x-rays and expense and the decision was made to put him down at 8 months. Welcome to GSDs!

His next TWO GSDs, from working line breeders, x-rayed and titled parents also had HD and were placed in pet homes.

I was lucky, I only had one HD dog before finding good hips. I did not place my HD dog and he was put to sleep last year at 14.

So I DO think the GSD could improve healthwise. I've heard a statistic that 25% of GSDs have CHD. That would be a 1 in 4 chance of having bad hips, and to me, that is very high.

There are other health issues as well, but I'll just stick to this one. Now would I think the Malinois could help? That is a whole other thing. In a nutshell, I think my answer is Yes.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

It would be nice if adding Mal would improve your chances of geting a HD free puppy, but that is not gonna happen. I am suprised to see that you have had that much trouble with HD, I know how much of a pain in the ass it is. When I was breeding Rotts, according to OFA, 55% had displasia, and those numbers are ****ed because of all the times that people won't spend the money to check the obvious bad hips.

Still, I did not have horrible rates of displasia, although when I did produce a puppy with displasia, statistically, it was crippling. On the other hand, at least for the most part I could catch it that way, and not sell the pup. Of course, I wasn't always correct, which sucked.


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## Michelle Kutelis (Sep 28, 2006)

He's had better luck since then, which leaves us both with the sickening feeling of "uh oh, it's been too good for too long, we're due some bad hips."

He DID however, just switch to Mals because of the health problems and prices of GSDs. Try finding a DRIVEY GSD that is 12 months old and has good hips and elbows for under $5000. We looked at a lot of mediocre dogs, before he said forget it, I want a Malinois.

And you're right- most bad hips are not sent in to OFA. I went to their site and it said 19%, so 25+ might be about right. And I think most GSDs are not x-rayed at all, as they are sold as pets. They might be x-rayed when there is a problem and the dog is 10 or so.

And another breed might not fix it, but darn it I wish something could. 

Then again, I'm used to some Breed Registries for horses that open up the stud books for short periods of time. The Quarter Horse wanted some height (and other things, I'm not a QH person so don't quote me) and so they opened up the stud books to TBs. Cross breed your QH with a TB and you got Appendix papers. Breed an Appendix registered horse back to a QH and you're back in the full QH papers.


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

I don´t think this will ever happen, don´t think Dr Raiser was dead serius about crossing mals into GSDs either, the new club he is going to found had suggestions about limiting the number of breedings a stud can have I believe, that would be a better thing I think, to get more genetic variation in the genepool, to often to much breedings is done by to few popular dogs.

I read about a guy who had visited a dogschool in slovakia during the WUSV, they breed policedogs mainly for USA, over 2500 over the past 15 years, their dogs was based on crosses between mals and GSDs, 90 % of their dogs didn´t have papers. According to this guy, when he watched 9-12 months old dogs work, they were very impressive and better than anything he had seen, the nerves and hardness these dog had was something that few workingdogs have anymore, to much breeding with sportdogs and not real strong character as first priority according to him.

On the other hand, I think the german police did have a breedingprogramm with GSD/mal crosses that they gave upp, don´t know the reasons thou. Also heard from belgians that tried this that the second generation of mal/GSD mixes wasn´t that good as the first. A better solution would be to breed only strong and healthy GSDs together, and improve the breed by selective breedings. 
By the way, the incident of HD is about 30% in the GSD, but there are breeders who can show much better results than that, you can improve you chances by getting a healthy GSD with checking upp the HD/ED status of relatives and littermates, buying a GSD when you don´t know how the overal tendencey of HD in the lines and relatives are a bit risky.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Man, I must be really lucky with my GSDs, as so far I am pleased with their working abilities and I really don't wanna see what they're like if you mix Mal in, as they are crazy enough as it is. I too would like to wonder what a Mal can bring in, versus just good, sensible breeding of the GSD as is. I've seen a lot of good GSDs, maybe not in the percentage that Mals would have, but considering that GSD people are all over the place (working-sport-show) while it seems Mal people are very focused on the working aspect alone, is this surprising? 

Let's not forget that there are so many different lines of German Shepherds with all vastly different temperaments.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

and don't forget that a certain amount of hybrid vigor comes into the intial F-1 cross (ie, GSD X Mal); this is well-known in the cattle/hog/sheep business, and it's used to advantage by producers in determining a terminal cross (the youngsters that go to slaughter).

the inital (F-1) cross normally has all the advantages (and few, if any of the disadvantages) of both parents, ie, hybrid vigor. however, as the crosses continue, the advantages are diluted to the point where there ARE no advantages. usually, the offspring of the F-1 generation is bred back to a different, purebred line to achieve a "terminal cross" where-in all offspring are destined for the kill plant. 

genetics being genetics, there is no reason why the same laws of inheritance wouldn't apply to dogs. so why not cross a GSDxMal, then breed the pups to, say, a Rott, or a giant Schnauzer, and you'd have a really good dog, but NOT a GSD, or a Mal, or a Giant Schnauzer. one has to maintain a pure bloodline in order to make these types of crosses; there's nothing wrong with either the pure bloodlines (tho we would want to minimize genetic defects) or the crosses, a breeder simply has to stay true to what they are breeding FOR.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Eric, I'm with you. He wasn't serious, he said it to make a point, specifically to wake up showline breeders. Unfortunately for him it backfired, he has been castigated for those remarks. Personally, I would love it if Helmut Raiser decided to move to the USA, as would most working line GSD people. So, to the original poster, was your original statement meant to be rather inflammatory?


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