# Insurance



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

How many of you have pet insurance ??

I got this in an e-mail today, as I registered Soda with the AKC a while back.

https://www.petpartnersinc.us/BHIACMS/Do?h=bhia.web.Quote&MarketChannel=AKC

If you just put away 60 bucks a month when you got the pup, at 720 a year off the top of my head, in 8 years, you have almost 6000.

How accident prone are dogs now days ??? I know the vets are sticking it in peoples eye sockets.........hard, but how often do dogs really need vet care, and how many are seriously gonna pay 3000 dollars to fix a dog ??

Just curious, cause I can get a nice dog for 3000, so the broken one can go on. Probably better for them anyways.


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## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

I don't know about this plan, but from the people I know that have Pet Insurance you have to be very careful to dot every i the exact way they want it or they will deny payment. That seems to be what they are very good at too, finding reasons to deny payment.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I am curious as to how much of this "insurance" is bullshit. If you look at what they cover, there is an X and not a description.

Anybody have this and have to use it ??


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## Carlo Hernandez (Aug 30, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> How many of you have pet insurance ??
> 
> I got this in an e-mail today, as I registered Soda with the AKC a while back.
> 
> ...


We have it as it is offered through our work and been on it for the past 6 yrs and hardly ever use it. We keep saying we are going to cancel but with my luck once I do all hell is going to come crashing down. We just got a new GSD and I do not think I will be adding him to the insurance....I just do not think its worth it.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Didn't you just post that your dog has health issues ?? Can't remember.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

The link isn't working. I had VPI insurance on my old dog for a few years. When he needed a hip replacement it was covered but what they paid was pretty insignificant. I cancelled the policy shortly after that. I don't think I would purchase dog health insurance again.


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## Carlo Hernandez (Aug 30, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Didn't you just post that your dog has health issues ?? Can't remember.


My new pup yes, my 8 yr old has been on the insurance the whole time. 

I would have some issues now if I put the new pup on the same insurance. And there are so many things that they do not cover that it almost makes it useless anyways.


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## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

I have Insurance - but not the one you listed Jeff. I have this one.....http://www.gopetplan.com. The "routine" stuff (ie., shots, blood work etc) is not covered...injuries, illness and hereditary stuff are. Never thought it was worthwhile to get pet insurance *before* but considering the cost of vet service nowadays and having a Mal (Zane) that could care less about his own safety at play and/or while working:roll: *AND *after a *very huge bill* when trying to save my Rott (well over 3k but to me she was worth so much more - yeah I'm soft like that) ....I think it is worthwhile *for me*. I believe I pay less then 200.00 a year (of course it depends on the breed and age when first applying - Dobs are *alot more expensive to ensure)*. It has already paid for itself last year - instead of going around a very large thorned bush to retrieve his ball he decided to barrel through it and ripped the corner of his eye socket among other things- 2 specialists (follow-up to ensure no damage to the eye itself) and some initial treatment by the emergency vet office and the bill was over $600.00. Received my reimbursement check in the mail in less then 10 days.


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## Craig Wood (Dec 9, 2008)

The numbers work if you have a young dog that you plan on getting fixed. Between the spay / neuter and the first years shots, flea and tick and heart guard it is worth the expense but after the first year the numbers say cancel. If your dog will stay intact the numbers do not look so good. That being said I keep my demo dog insured.


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## Alex Corral (Jul 10, 2007)

Jeff, I sell insurance for State Farm, and so when I got my pup, I took a look at getting pet insurance through VP I think. Then I passed. I don't think it's a good investment. I did alot of research and read alot of horror stories about these pet insurers not paying up. I went and got a _care credit _account, which is a credit card you can use for the vet. 12 mos interest free on charges over $300. I'd pass on that pet insurance if I were you. http://carecredit.com/vetmed/whycc.html


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I had pet insurance years ago and found that what I needed it for it didn't cover, and what I didn't need it for it did cover. Finally cancelled after them denying payment every time I did have to take my dog to the vet.

It might be handy in some situations, but I'll take my chances and just pay as I go.


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## Alex Corral (Jul 10, 2007)

Oh I forgot to say.. Jeff, I think this question needs to be asked in a ******* PET FORUM. LOL.. JK, but couldn't pass this up to give you $&#*!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

If you have a question to ask, do you ask the idiot drooling in the corner writing gibberish with his own urine ??

That is pretty much what I think of pet people on forums.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Alex Corral said:


> Jeff, I sell insurance for State Farm, and so when I got my pup, I took a look at getting pet insurance through VP I think. Then I passed. I don't think it's a good investment. I did alot of research and read alot of horror stories about these pet insurers not paying up. I went and got a _care credit _account, which is a credit card you can use for the vet. 12 mos interest free on charges over $300. I'd pass on that pet insurance if I were you. http://carecredit.com/vetmed/whycc.html


Care Credit is good, and I keep that handy, just in case. When my previously mentioned dog had that hip replacement surgery a large chunk of it was put on Care Credit. We paid it off within a year, so we paid no interest.


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## Anne Jones (Mar 27, 2006)

There are different 'levels' of insurance. Usually to have surgeries coverd you have to have a major medical policy or surgery rider. Translation: higher premiums. The insurance companies payments are also, like human insurance, are subjected to the usual & customany fees, which if you live in high priced areas, don't come close to paying much of the vet bill. They don't have any mortality coverage either, like the equine insurance has. I had coverage with mortality & major medical to cover surgery (mainly colic surgery) on my X- country horse for many years. And they had a flat cap amount on what they would pay for colic surgery. It was still better than paying 2x or more for what it would cost for a colic surgery. I did make out pretty well on a couple of other serious medical problems thru the years, though. The main advantage was for colic & mortality (so you could have a reasonable replacement $$$ amount for death) I looked in to pet insurance for my dogs a number of years ago & they don't even have mortality coverage. You could most likey do just as well, in most cases, if you put the premium amount away & saved it for use if the need arose. In most cases you would be ahead of the game. The insurance companies are in business to make $$ no loose it if at all possivle. JMO BTW my 'main man' will be 27 years old this July & is retired now. Up until 4 years ago, he was still trail riding & jumping. Wish my dogs would live such long & happy lives.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

I have pet insurance called Petsecure. They have different plans of what is included, deductilbles and that kinda stuff.

As an FYI this is the run down of what I have.

The level of coverage I have has a $100 deductable, and pays 80%. 

$5000 per acccident is covered
$5000 per illness condition PER YEAR
$400 towards dental (non accident related) like teeth cleaning
$350 per year towards alternative treatments (chiropractic, homeopathy, hydrotherapy..) also for behavioral therapy.

Also includes with no deductable:
$1000 per accident towards boarding your pet if you are sick/accident and can't care for your pet
$1000 in trip cancellation if your animal needs emergency (life saving) care and you can't travell
$1000 for advertising and reward money if your pet is lost or stolen
$1000 to bury or cremate your pet IF they die from an insurable accident or illness.

Does not include regular check ups and so on.

My policy excludes anything seizure related because he has some weird neuro crap when he was young (has had no issues for 3 years) so they won't cover "pre-existing"

For this plan they charge $60 CND per month.

My employer pays me $50 per month for insurance for the dog.

If I was paying the total on my own I am pretty sure I would NOT have pet insurance. I would just shell out when the dog got effed up. 

I have not used mine, but know others in our program who have and did not have an issue. Not for anything huge however.

Before I had it I did cut my dog bad enough that I had him put under and stitched (won't do that again unless his leg is falling off). It would have come in handy there. 

Hope that helps.


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## Lisa Emerson (Mar 30, 2009)

I have nothing useful to add, but



Jeff Oehlsen said:


> how often do dogs really need vet care, and how many are seriously gonna pay 3000 dollars to fix a dog ??


I've paid a little over $3,500 twice to fix one of mine before. 8-[


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Good God, why ??


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Good God, why ??


Why not?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> Why not?



I think that many would if they could. Many more cannot, and it's just a fact of life.


Here are some insurance review/comparison sites:

http://www.petinsurancereview.com/

http://www.petinsurancereview.com/dog.asp

http://www.organic-pet-digest.com/pet-insurance-reviews.html#Traditional


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I think that many would if they could. Many more cannot, and it's just a fact of life.
> 
> 
> I asked "why not" because I don't understand what $3,000 has to do with it. If Jeff has determined this is his monetary vet bill cut off figure, that's fine for him, I just don't get why he would think this figure should apply to everyone else too. I mean I would really like to know where it is written or when it was determined that $3,000 is the magic number?
> ...


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Susan, you can get a really nice puppy for 3000. For me there is a limit to a dogs monetary worth.

The other thing is that in my experience the money is being spent to fix genetic problems. I know people that spend a lot of money every month for their dogs allergy problems. It is not a child, and the dog does not get relief a lot of the times. How about the sensitive stomach dogs ?? This is another issue.

I understand that sometimes things happen, but I have not really seen, or heard anyone just say that that is crazy to spend on a dog in a public forum. 

For me there is a monetary limit to what I will spend on a dog. Most of the time when the bills get that high, is the dog going to recover fully ??

So maybe it seems a bit cruel, I have seen what happens to perfectly nice people when the vet bill is crushing them. The perception is that you do whatever it takes.......for a dog. Sorry, I would like to be the voice of reason.

Now if you have all kinds of money, that is fine, but when you pay this kind of thing over and over, you set the bar real high for people who cannot.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Well, what I said about some people cannot was kind of in the same vein.

I have seen two things that sadden me terribly, and I have seen them often: owners beating themselves up in guilt over not having the money for, say, a surgery that is required if there is to be any life quality and having to have the dog PTS. The other is people spending a fortune (that's not the sad part) on maintaining a dog who HAS no quality of life. I have seen my vet in tears over chemo on a dog with uncurable cancer, a dog who she would PTS in a heartbeat. As would I. (Sue, I know that this is nothing like what you meant.)

I actually have no problem with someone saying that there ARE practical limits for most people. 

"Good God, why?" (about a certain amount) isn't something I'd say, though, because the limits vary depending on the purse of the owner as well as her/his other responsibilities. Sue's limits are indeed not likely to have anything to do with the limits of anyone else.


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I have seen my vet in tears over chemo on a dog with uncurable cancer, a dog who she would PTS in a heartbeat.


IMO, if the vet knows the dog will have zero quality of life, isn't it quite unfair to the dog to go ahead and cry over the people spending all this money and proceed with chemo that will not work? This particular example of that vet tells me she needs to take her cloak of competency to the dry cleaners for a fresher up.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Michele McAtee said:


> IMO, if the vet knows the dog will have zero quality of life, isn't it quite unfair to the dog to go ahead and cry over the people spending all this money and proceed with chemo that will not work? This particular example of that vet tells me she needs to take her cloak of competency to the dry cleaners for a fresher up.


She certainly HAS told the owner that she personally would not continue and advises against it because there is so little (virtually no) chance of survival. 

The vet should refuse, you mean? And .... then what happens? I'm honestly asking. 

I don't know what I would do. Can a vet put a dog down secretly? Legally, of course not. Morally? What is it that she should do?

eta
If the owner has been advised that the dog is suffering procedures that the vet believes have virtually no chance of giving the dog some quality survival time, then what? Does the vet say "Then take the dog somewhere else?" Or .... what?


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Jeff: No, I don't think it's cruel not to spend the money, I do think what someone decides to spend on their dogs is really a personal decision. I would agree it is cruel to keep a dog alive if it does not have a good quality of life. For me, this isn't determined by the cost.


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

It truly is an ethical issue. I'm sure she did tell the people (blithering ijit people). Maybe she could add "I'm am 99% certain this procedure will not work and I want you to sign that you are paying me a lot of money for nothing. Then I will place it on the award winning stupid people board I have in my lobby. Oh, and you are more than welcome to bring your new puppy in for shots."

I wish I had the answer...but I will say, I'm one for setting a limit--especially when the odds are low. It's really infuriating to me.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Michele McAtee said:


> It truly is an ethical issue. I'm sure she did tell the people (blithering ijit people). Maybe she could add "I'm am 99% certain this procedure will not work and I want you to sign that you are paying me a lot of money for nothing. Then I will place it on the award winning stupid people board I have in my lobby. Oh, and you are more than welcome to bring your new puppy in for shots."
> 
> I wish I had the answer...but I will say, I'm one for setting a limit--especially when the odds are low. It's really infuriating to me.


Every time I see the owner there I get tears in my eyes. Yes, the vet did speak up. One of the owners says to anyone who will listen in the waiting room "I don't agree with the vet, do you? Doesn't Casey look better this week?"

It's so horrible.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Susan it is a frustrating thing, because if you own dogs long enough, you are gonna hit this thing at some point.

I have heard stories from my ex girlfriend who worked in an emergency vet clinic, and from a lot of others, owners included about when money is the issue and how people react to it.

She found dogs tied out in the cold dead because they were open and they needed some really large deposit before they could start.

I have wondered today if I am just not attacking the lack of ethics of the world of scumbag vets who hold your dogs life for ransom with this kind of shit, or if I am trying to show new people that it is OK not to bankrupt yourself at the expense of a dog.

I have had some of the greatest dogs I have ever seen over the years, and I spent about nothing on them, as they had no health issues. I do not know what I would have done if they had gotten hurt somehow, I had much more available cash back then. But then again, the point is moot, as I did not have to deal with an "emergency vet" scumbag business paying some girl that can give shots and subQ fluids 20 bucks an hour to hold my dogs life for ransom with a "deposit"

Could be just a huge **** you asshole vets as well. LOL


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

My world isn't one of "scumbag vets," although scumbags exist in every profession.

Wait until you run into scumbag MDs, Jeff, if you get up a head of steam over dogs' health held for ransom.

Surely you don't think that quality health care is available to humans without money (or expensive insurance)? 

But anyway, about the dog insurance. It seems to me from what I have heard in club and shelter-folk discussions that a level of insurance that steps in only for a catastrophe for a non-pre-existing condition but covers none of the normal (or semi-normal) stuff might be something to look for in the situation Jeff described way back in the O.P.


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

Oh, Connie...so I need to stay on topic and not trail off into Jack Kevorkian and my friends mom who was one of his last patients? (as I say this, my other friends dad is dying of pancreatic cancer, but alas, there is hope!)

Oh, er uh, Jeff, ixnay on the pet insurance.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: 
Surely you don't think that quality health care is available to humans without money (or expensive insurance)? 

Teaching hospitals are low cost alternatives.

Quote: 
Wait until you run into scumbag MDs, Jeff, if you get up a head of steam over dogs' health held for ransom

Yes but I am not on a forum for the permanently sick and infirm humans. There are always scumbags, but there are scumbag lawyers that you can go after them with. There is almost no recourse for getting a stick in the eye from a vet, as the dog only has worth as livestock.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

For the first part of your post, that could be a "lounge" thread. It sure is a big problem to view the mess that capitalistic medicine (and yes, I think I'm a capitalistic :lol: ) has made of our health care system..... and how much unimaginable money is spent "because we can" rather than "because it's a good idea." Take it away!



Michele McAtee said:


> ...Oh, er uh, Jeff, ixnay on the pet insurance.


This is what I was pretty much saying that the many dog-folks I know have opined: that the relatively cheap catastrophic-event-only policies might be good, but that otherwise, the usual (and even kinda-usual) care costs might be better dealt with by saving a certain amount every month in your own fund that at least you get to keep if it's not needed.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> There are always scumbags, but there are scumbag lawyers that you can go after them with.


Words to live by, indeed. :lol:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> I have pet insurance called Petsecure. They have different plans of what is included, deductilbles and that kinda stuff. ..... I have not used mine, but know others in our program who have and did not have an issue.



Meaning that they felt it was worth the money even if they had been paying the premiums themselves?


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## Anne Jones (Mar 27, 2006)

Another thought.....to decide what your 'limit' may be for an unforseen circumstance before anything happens. As often happens in an emergency situation, we think with our hearts & not with our brains. I do also, think that some vets & emergency vets COUNT of this fact. You also need to know what quality of life your dog will have coming out the other side of this kind of event, taking into consideration, his age, health prior to the incident etc in making a decision about emergency issues. I guess this comes from having a horse for many years & knowing that colic surgery,even though I had insurance, was still going to be an expensive out of pocket risk with no guarantees. Now with that all being said, ask me how stupid I would be if something happened to my female. I just presented the advise didn't say that I could follow it.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Susan it is a frustrating thing, because if you own dogs long enough, you are gonna hit this thing at some point.
> 
> I have heard stories from my ex girlfriend who worked in an emergency vet clinic, and from a lot of others, owners included about when money is the issue and how people react to it.
> 
> ...


Yeah, we have two after hours only ER vets around where I live who come by their crap reputations honestly , and based on horrible care and catastrophic results combined with highway robbery fees, I would NEVER take my dog to either of them, I don't care WHAT was going on. I am lucky that there is an outstanding animal hospital staffed 24/7 with vets who are doing internships for specialties, as well as supervising vets, and this is where I go in the case of an emergency.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> Yeah, we have two after hours only ER vets around where I live who come by their crap reputations honestly , and based on horrible care and catastrophic results combined with highway robbery fees, I would NEVER take my dog to either of them, I don't care WHAT was going on. * I am lucky that there is an outstanding animal hospital staffed 24/7 *with vets who are doing internships for specialties, as well as supervising vets, and this is where I go in the case of an emergency.



Eaxctly: there's great and terrible in every profession.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennifer Coulter 
I have pet insurance called Petsecure. They have different plans of what is included, deductilbles and that kinda stuff. ..... I have not used mine, but know others in our program who have and did not have an issue. 




Connie Sutherland said:


> Meaning that they felt it was worth the money even if they had been paying the premiums themselves?


Couldn't say, they were not paying the premiums themselves. I think you can have enough crap happen to make it worth it if you are unlucky. That said, if I wasn't having it paid for, I would take my chances and pay out for vet services if I needed too. Insurance is for pessimists...right? :-k  




Connie Sutherland said:


> Surely you don't think that quality health care is available to humans without money (or expensive insurance)?


It is in Canada...but I digress....


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I am curious as to how much of this "insurance" is bullshit. If you look at what they cover, there is an X and not a description.
> 
> Anybody have this and have to use it ??


 
Jeff, I think your intuition is right. I checked with Consumer Reports on the use of the "pet insurance". First it's not really insurance. you have to pay up front, and then get reimbursed....if you qualify. And Qualification seems to be based on if you have done everything written in the fine print...which generally is, having proof of examinations, vaccines, chipping and other preventive measures...which may include health testing, and in some cases "registration" with an approved registration. In some cases you may have to prove the dog treated is the dog covered. In other cases it has to be an approved vet.

And as your calculations showed, it's finacially more reasonable to just save the money you pay on premium.


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