# Canine Good Neighbour (CGN) Information?



## Jessica Hodges (May 16, 2014)

I am looking for CGN training manuals/resources. My Spaniel is a bit unfocused and I think getting her basic obedience and manners down pat will help. However, I need a goal, a tangible goal aside from her"down" improving, to get me motivated. Does anyone know where I can get a hold of training resources specific to CGN?


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## Catherine Gervin (Mar 12, 2012)

totally not trying to be a jerk--am honestly curious, as i've only ever heard of CGC, Canine Good Citizen? most All-Breed clubs can help you train for this program, and certainly lots of Obedience Trainers will do training for this, too. you could ask your Veterinarian or even reach out to that dubious entity the American Kennel Club. my experience with the CGC program is that it is an awesome way to get yourself a steady, friendly dog, and you can also take your pup to Senior Centers/Homes and public schools and occasionally even hospitals.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i've always heard of it referred to as a canine good citizen test
....here's a vid which shows the results of one who passed :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vd5UK8clB4

there are other ways for those who have stronger more reactive dogs who need real training to pass a CGC, or for people who think strangers do not need to approach/meet/pet their dog 
(i fall into that category)

for me the simple goal is to have the owner walk their dog in a busy public place while following these simple rules :
1. dog stays next to them
2. dog does not require constant nagging leash corrections or verbal "conversations" between dog/handler to keep the dog in place
3. the dog shows more interest in the owner than the environment
- easier said than done for most people and their dog 
- it's also a good way to measure how much focus your dog really has


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i wouldn't ask a vet for advice on dog training and assume they had the best answers unless i saw the vet actual train or handle a dog outside of their office/clinic


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

CGN is the Canadian version. 

From the CKC website - 

_If you are interested in participating with your dog and obtaining a CGN certification, you should first obtain a copy of the Participants Handbook from the CKC order desk at 1-800-250-8040 _

https://www.ckc.ca/Raising-My-Dog/Responsible-Ownership/Canine-Good-Neighbour


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## Jessica Hodges (May 16, 2014)

Thanks all for your replies. Yes, CGN is Canadian. The only problem I have with the manual is that it is in paper form. Since I'm blind I can't actually read the paper and was hoping for an electronic format. My bad, I wasn't clear. LOL Although this link does say that you can obtain a copy from the member's area so will look into that. The video of the dog passing is certainly interesting. Again, thanks all.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

made a note to self : "she's blind, numb nuts :-( "

with that said, do you have a friend who can workt with you and is capable of giving you an accurate, running commentary on what the dog is doing ?

disclaimer : .... but .....since you could have three people watching the same dog and all might give different interpretations for what they think is happening, this might not be easy to pull off either //lol//

worked with trainers prepping guide dogs, but never worked with a blind person working their dog, but the ones i talked to said they didn't feel that the dog understands completely that their handler cannot see
....sounds like an interesting challenge for both

have you tried any echo-locating ? i've seen that done on TV and it looks like a promising potential work around for blind people


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

The video is interesting?Hm.


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## Jessica Hodges (May 16, 2014)

rick smith said:


> made a note to self : "she's blind, numb nuts :-( "
> 
> with that said, do you have a friend who can workt with you and is capable of giving you an accurate, running commentary on what the dog is doing ?
> 
> ...


LMAO! Nice self note. 
I use a lot of strange and wonderful ways when training/working with my dogs. I'm no expert and not sure I'm doing it right, but we'll see. For example, for off leash stuff, they wear bells and everyone's bell sounds different. On leash is different because I can feel what they are doing as well as can hear their paws/butts/elbows Etc. Recall is one of the things my dogs are trained the strongest in probably because i rely so much on it. I think my Spaniel knows I can't see...she's a little...well...poop head to put it nicely. LOL
I'll have a few people watch it with me and commentate. At least, if I get a few different interpretations I have something to work with. Thanks for the suggestion.


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## Jessica Hodges (May 16, 2014)

jack van strien said:


> The video is interesting?Hm.


Sorry?


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

this whole topic is interesting to me :
how to train a dog if you're blind

i'm gonna shut up for awhile and give it some thought, but in the meantime, a few thoughts that come to my mind :

- were u sighted at one time ? or does it even make a difference ?

- if you lose one sense, you sharpen up the ones you have and work with what you've got, correct ?

..... comments that get made here a lot are :
- read the dog
- timing is everything; whether it applies to correcting or rewarding
- markers are a great technique
- don't "ask" a dog to do something. make it black and white and remove the options for non-compliance 

- would trying to copy a sighted approach to training even apply to a blind person ?

- same goes for traditional blind approaches.....can you "read" a dog by braille and/or sound ? //lol//

- i don't envy your problem, but i do envy the challenge 

- regardless, there are a couple things i still feel need to be learned, which I believe apply for any training issue, with or without using eyes :
** you need a good bond with a dog to train it : mutual trust and respect; in equal doses.
- if you can get ideas on how to do that without using your eyes, you will be moving down the right road to success

- anyway, there are obviously a LOT of methods we preach on here that might not apply in your case, so if there was ever a time to think outside the box, this would seem to be it 

- lots of expertise here. hope it gets posted. some might just apply to us "sighted folks" too


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Jessica,i was just wondering how a video could benefit you.Would it be ok if i send you a pm?I have a few questions that dont have to do with dogs.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

the bells are a great idea...


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## Jessica Hodges (May 16, 2014)

jack van strien said:


> Jessica,i was just wondering how a video could benefit you.Would it be ok if i send you a pm?I have a few questions that dont have to do with dogs.


Oh, of course. Ask away.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

ok, i've thought about it for awhile 

i normally try to stay away from creating a strong dependence on food treats but in this case it might be worth bending the rules

1. i would NEVER feed from a bowl. always from my hand, even if a small bowl of food was in my hand 
... and the dog would always work for its food
2. i would NEVER use the dog's name unless i wanted it to come to me and "focus"....i would "load" that marker with a high value treat.....
*** and if my dog did not respond immediately when i called its name, i would start all over and REname it (any dog can learn a new name in no time at all)
iow, the dog's name would now have the highest value over any verbal
3. when the dog started responding (coming within arms distance) i would start using my hands to make sure the head was facing me when i used the name again. my "mark" would be the dog's name and the treat would be delivered

no matter what you do, if you are alone and no one can watch/monitor the dog, you might need the dog in close proximity to in order to test focus via "braille", and this might be one way to start

i'm also curious ..... since you have already said the dog lacks focus, how have you made that call and measured the lack of focus ???

still thinking about how to use the lead to make it an effective tool in your situation. 
- btw, i could list many ways i see it being used improperly with sighted people .... or not being used enuff  
...iow, how do you use it now (specifics please) and is the dog ever on lead in the house ??

on the mutual trust and respect thing :
- i would make sure the dog will allow lifting and being held belly up as a starter
- i would also manipulate it into positions that are bio-mechanically unnatural and therefore require trust in the handler


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## Jessica Hodges (May 16, 2014)

rick smith said:


> this whole topic is interesting to me :
> how to train a dog if you're blind
> 
> i'm gonna shut up for awhile and give it some thought, but in the meantime, a few thoughts that come to my mind :
> ...


I was sighted up until I was 3, but I don't think seeing for that short amount of time made a difference in regards to dog training. And yes, I think if I had been a dog trainer and then lost my sight this would be a different scenario. Learning something with sight often translates to it being easier once you are blind. I.E., if you learned how to dance with sight, you are probably going to be a good dancer if you lose it. However, teaching a completely blind person to dance who has never seen it is an interesting endeavour. 
But, back to dog training: I actually don't know if trying to copy a sighted approach to training applies. It's something I'm trying to find out; mostly through trial and error...a lot of errors. LOL. I clicker train so mark behaviours, but have had to modify my responses/training. I.E., When I trained my Spaniel targeting she would dart in and whack my palm too quickly for me to click. I couldn't see her moving towards me and didn't know she had done it until it was too late. So, I started holding a treat in that hand to hold her there longer and eventually phased the treat out once I was able to click properly. It was a method I had read somewhere and used for my own purposes, if that make sense?
I think in a way, it makes training slower, but in others it is effective in that the dog is pretty much proofed because it has to be. I.E., my dogs have to have good recall because I can't find them both in and out of the house. Or, 1 dog has been trained to dig in her bowl when she wants water because when she was just standing in front of it I obviously didn't know. 
That said, I would appreciate any suggestions because I am certainly learning. I can usually adapt things. I just need the information so I can modify it.
As for "reading" the dog: I don't think I can use braille to read a dog, but that would be nice. LOL! I use sound a lot. We train on a hard wood floor because I can hear paws moving, elbows or butts hitting the floor Etc. Once things are proofed in an area where I can hear, we move locations; like outside on grass...it's hard to hear on grass. LOL. That's where the bells come in. I find training bigger dogs easier because I can feel their movements through the leash better and hear them easier.. I'd be open for suggestions here too.
Can you give me an example of not asking the dog and removing options for non-compliance? I don't know if I do that.
How would go about gaining mutual respect with eyes?
Thanks for your input.


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## Jessica Hodges (May 16, 2014)

Brian Anderson said:


> the bells are a great idea...


Thanks. 
Do you have any others?


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

check frequently and always keep water bowls filled with water ... end of that problem


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

or teach them to drink from (modified) oversized hamster feeders ... less filling required


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

braille is kinda used by sighted people 
teaching the direction for a send out by putting (hand) blinders on the dog.


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## Jessica Hodges (May 16, 2014)

rick smith said:


> ok, i've thought about it for awhile
> 
> i normally try to stay away from creating a strong dependence on food treats but in this case it might be worth bending the rules
> 
> ...


Wow. You've really got me thinking. This is great.
1. Name recognition was something I worked on with all four dogs right from the get go and in the manner you described. Call name = deliver yumminess.
I do bowl feed, but remove portions for training. I.E., name recognition, a "follow" game so they know to follow me around, some are working on targeting since they will come close but not right up to my hand. Since my hands "see" they are always good things: they always deliver food, pets, toys...never anything bad. I can't afford for my dogs to associate my hands with negative things.
Is it feasible to remove bowls entirely in a multi-dog home? How would I do it?
2. Maybe "focus" was the incorrect word. She has a very short attention span. It's like she's always firing really really fast and I dont' know how to re-direct her. I have to think of ways to train her without her realising we're training. So what I mean is the popular way of teach step 1 and progress to step 2 doesn't work...or I'm doing it wrong is more likely what's going on. If I set aside specific time to train, she knew and owuld perform brilliantly during that time. Once "training time" was over, she stopped. So, now she trains all day long which coincides with removing parts of her meals for training. I.E., if she needs out, she has to target my hand first (helps me know where she is in relation to the door), she then sits and waits to be released. She's only 12 LBS so I have a hard time hearing her. The bigger dogs only have to sit since I can hear where they are located. Did I answer your question about her lack of focus clearly?
3. She's never on lead in the house, but it's something I've considered. What is the most effective way to go about this? The bigger dogs loose leash walk nicely because I can feel the sway of their movements through the leash; I can read them that way. The Spaniel has to walk calmly, but I allow her a small amount of tension so I can feel her movements. She wears it when we are training something new so I can "see" what she's doing. I.E., if I'm teaching her down and she's off bouncing around on the end of the leash, I know she's not paying attention or doing what I'm asking.  Is that what you were asking?
4. I already lift her, spin her, hold her above my head...LOL She likes being held on her back "like a baby." She lets me clean teeth, trim claws, clean ears, brush coat, cut knots out of her fur...I think she trusts me, but I don't think that she necessarily respects me. How do I get there?
I don't have the lack of respect from the others.


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## Jessica Hodges (May 16, 2014)

rick smith said:


> check frequently and always keep water bowls filled with water ... end of that problem


Can't. We have a guzzler who will drink until he bursts. Hd him tested, healthy...just a hog.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re : "I think she trusts me, but I don't think that she necessarily respects me. How do I get there?"

let me count the ways 

but don't want to make this a "me and you" thread 

MANY experienced people on here can advise you on this issue

hint : one of your questions to me about relates DIRECTLY to the issue of respect


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

I was trying to think of ways to ask for what I would consider focus, which is eye to eye contact from my dog to me, if I did not have sight, and thought it has to be something tactile. A large dog I think I would ask for muzzle in hand as an indication, either in front sit or side heel position, of attention, but for a small dog, that would be a bit awkward. 

What about teaching a head or muzzle touch - building duration - to wherever she naturally comes to on your leg? Or having her foot touch your foot and maintaing that until released? I can see that being something fun to build movement exercises and hind end awareness games around - using your foot as a 'place'.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

suggest people try it out; it's easy to do.

close your eyes and try and teach your dog an entirely new behavior.

- i hung a cat collar on with a bell, but my ears weren't good enough to hear it once it was 10 feet away :-(
- stopped me dead in my tracks and got me frustrated in less than five minutes, and i consider my house dog well trained and a quick learner :-(

maybe some google expert needs to search for blind dog trainers. all i kept getting was guide dog stuff //lol//


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## Jessica Hodges (May 16, 2014)

leslie cassian said:


> I was trying to think of ways to ask for what I would consider focus, which is eye to eye contact from my dog to me, if I did not have sight, and thought it has to be something tactile. A large dog I think I would ask for muzzle in hand as an indication, either in front sit or side heel position, of attention, but for a small dog, that would be a bit awkward.
> 
> What about teaching a head or muzzle touch - building duration - to wherever she naturally comes to on your leg? Or having her foot touch your foot and maintaing that until released? I can see that being something fun to build movement exercises and hind end awareness games around - using your foot as a 'place'.


Oh, I like that. As you said, the smaller dog is much more awkward. It's doable, but I think in the future I will stick to larger breeds. However, this is just a challenge and a learning curve. She's good with her paws so I had trained her that when we're out off leash walking in the bush that if I call her she's to come up and tag me on the leg with her front paws; the big dogs use their noses. That way, we can maintain motion. Some people berated me for teaching her to jump up, but it's her way of letting you know she's around without you stepping on her small paws. I think I can teach her to put her paw on my foot.
I could see that being a good skill for working dogs even if their handler can see them.


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## Jessica Hodges (May 16, 2014)

rick smith said:


> suggest people try it out; it's easy to do.
> 
> close your eyes and try and teach your dog an entirely new behavior.
> 
> ...


LOL! You tried? Good for you. Use a bigger bell. 
I get the same things when I use Google too. That's why I'm here. I'm looking back at my questions to puzzle this out for myself. Thanks for challenging me.
And, you're right. I don't want this to be a "you and me" post either.
Anyone who has any suggestions on earning dog's respect or anything else, please comment. 
Or, if you think I'm going about it all wrong...let me know and we'll chat about it. LOL


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## Jessica Hodges (May 16, 2014)

rick smith said:


> re : "I think she trusts me, but I don't think that she necessarily respects me. How do I get there?"
> 
> let me count the ways
> 
> ...


I think I found it...?
Don't ask. Black/white and don't give option for non-compliance?
If that's it, that's where I'm going wrong for sure.
I think I did this when teaching recall. Started on short leash and then extended to lunge line until the dog could be trusted off. I've done it in other areas too, but I don't think enough.
Are there exercises I can do? Is it more of a mindset/attitude?


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Bingo Jessica 

we have a very experienced dog owner/trainer WDF member here who can expand on this in very clear terms

her name is Alice


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