# Signs were "on the right track"?



## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

So I am a first time tracking trainer. My total sum knowledge of tracking is what I read here, watch on YouTube, and taking from Gary Patterson's book "tracking from the beginning" (copywrite 1992 so obviously somewhat dated.)

Subject is a 12 week old Malinios. 

We started two weeks ago. Maybe 4-5 boxes. Last two times out I used the three track method described in Patterson's book. 

It is clear my pup understands the food comes from the pad and the track. He has clearly demonstrated this understanding by going immediately back to the scent pad or track when he goes outside of it.

I was VERY pleased today in that I had to literally pull him from the track when the bait became scarce. 

I am assuming these are positive signs that we are "on the right track" so to speak?

I will start posting videos soon and will be asking for guidance from the more experienced trackers here.


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

Some mistakes or improvements unrealized I could make are.... 

The first time I tried the three track method, he ventured off one track onto another. I realized almost immediately, I was a bonehead and started him on the track with the wind coming in from track number two. 

I have figured out that I can probably improve by more thoughtful placing of the bait. Up tip now, I just kind of threw bait indescriminatly on the pad and track. Realize I can probably help myself and the dog with more stratigic bait pattern. 

Lastly, up to this point I have just let him do his thing with virtually zero handler influence. I have allowed him to go backwards on the track and back onto the pad if there is still bait and he is using his nose. 

Is that ok to allow for a short time in the beginning? I realize this is not something I want to go on for long periods of time, but I figure it's not gonna hurt much in the very beginning. Right?


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Tracking is i find great fun your dog will love it and sounds like you are going along nicely but just go slow and steady it was mine and most peoples biggest mistake you really need to imprint the ground scent to food and therefore the track so strongly or the dog will start to find its easier to air scent and then the fun begins :---) 

As far as the dog swinging back for food i have not found it to be a problem and my dog will still do it in training if she goes over a bait and will swing back to get it but if a track is laid with little food i have not found this behaviour to affect them at all they just push forward looking for food and if there is none they will foillow the track.

As for food placement on the track the biggest thing i found helpful was hiding the food deeper in the grass really teaching the dog to use its nose and search for food and be slow and methodical from step to step and it takes really small bits of food to achieve that.But for a pup i wouldnt be worried about hiding it to much until you know its in the dogs head for sure then start making it a bit more of challenge to find its bait.


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

I find it easier to not let them do things incorrectly in the beginning, so you don't have to go back and fix it later. If you don't want him to track backwards don't start it. 
Everything else, start in short simple phases and increase it as the dog is ready, but it is best to build a solid foundation, than correct problems down the road.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Julie i understand that principle its true for most things but have you seen a dog swing back looking for food when there is none on the track????


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

brad robert said:


> Julie i understand that principle its true for most things but have you seen a dog swing back looking for food when there is none on the track????


I have only started one using food. The others have been just on scent alone. 
The pup that we started with food wanted to waste to much time digging for food not actually scenting the track, so we weaned it out pretty fast. Didn't allow her to go back for missed food parts, now we have no issues with her going forward at a nice pace. The only reason I used food on the track with her is to keep her slow.


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

I think the ultimate goal plays a factor.....Julie I assume from your avitar you are training for S&R? 

My ultimate goal is PSD but also want to play in protection sports. In talking with people who train for "real work" most advise against food. Read dick stalls book and like his idea of letting the dog track the way he wants and to figure things out on his own. 

The approach I am taking is to bait with food but at the same time let him do his thing. I figure baiting some to help him out while young ( as well as me figuring out what the heck I'm doing cant hurt much. 

So today he basically skipped right over the pad and went directly to the track all three times.

Good, bad, or no big deal either way?


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

I think you have hit the nail on the head and it depends what you are training for?? If its IPO air scenting is never ever going to get you far and i agree also that if training for S&R well its ok to ween off food fast but for IPO weening to fast will cause many problems well it has in the dogs i have seen.I would hesitate a gues that for PD it would be ok to get the food off to very little quickly as well.But i dont think anydog would be hurt in the least by a very strong FST method as its basis hell it might even help


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

So update today......haven't gone out in about week and half. Been 100 plus for about the last 9 days. 

So in my last thread I left with he was skipping the pad and gong directly to the track. So today I did first only a pad, then pad with about 5 foot trench, then pad with 10 foot trench. 

First pad all over place seemed to look for track.... Second time hit one bait on pad went straight to track skipped bait then tracked backwards, third time basically same thing. 

I am thinking he has just figured out the jackpot is at the end of the track and is looking for that. I made sure we went with the wind so no bait smell was comming back towards him. 

So what I am thinking is 

1) go back to scent pads only with heavier amounts of bait
2) heavily bait pad with short 2-3 foot track no jackpot at the end
3) eliminate pad just have track with heavy bait and no jackpot

Thought suggestions? I am open to and seeking other suggestions as well


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

Hi Chris-

Out of the 3 choices you gave, I’d go with C.

I am tracking a 4 month old Malinois right now for IPO competition. She is working on circle tracks with pieces of kibble in all the footsteps. Once she can do those to my liking I will begin baited serpentine tracks with her and then move on from there.

For now I lay the track and then sit back and watch her do all the work..:mrgreen:


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

julie allen said:


> I find it easier to not let them do things incorrectly in the beginning, so you don't have to go back and fix it later. If you don't want him to track backwards don't start it.
> Everything else, start in short simple phases and increase it as the dog is ready, but it is best to build a solid foundation, than correct problems down the road.


True!! One way to stop the dog turning round to pick up a missed piece of food is to keep the line short and prevent him physically by standing behind him. 

Another point is "why did he miss the piece of food?" Probably going too fast in which case slow him down with a bit of a tauter line and maybe some softly muttered "slow"!! However, to know what "slow" means, you will have to teach him offside the track - on the lead out walking.

Another point is, why put food in every footstep? Why not space it out *irregularly from the start*? For a not very drivey dog, I would suggest maybe the *first ten steps* or so in every footstep but when you think that dogs have been taught to track without food for many years, just relying on their tracking drive, I have to wonder?

Footstep tracking - what do any tracks involve other than "foot steps". I've never heard of a dog tracking otherwise unless its "footprints" from animals.

Anything else is "air scenting"!!


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

julie allen said:


> I have only started one using food. The others have been just on scent alone.
> The pup that we started with food wanted to waste to much time digging for food not actually scenting the track, so we weaned it out pretty fast. Didn't allow her to go back for missed food parts, now we have no issues with her going forward at a nice pace. The only reason I used food on the track with her is to keep her slow.


I think we're on the same page here!!

I have often used food to slow a dog down and, unashamedly, to give me a clue to the corners (never used too near to prevent cutting them out) but 15 metres from the corner can wake me up a little :-D.


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

Tha is for the replies. @julie-- did you start with circle tracks or did you begin with straight tracks and move to circle? I can see where circle may be of benifit with my pup. 

In Patterson's book, he states when using his three track method, the pup will get progressively better with each track. I am finding this to be true. He slows down and shows more focus by the third track. 

Second is he says the track becomes more of a motivator than the food. I am up on the air if this is the case right now. 

Cont


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

We track on the same field at roughly the same time every session. So he knows what is comming when we hit the field. He can see the tracks as I am laying them in grass deep enough. Decent moisture as well. 

He gets so excited he tries to run roughshod up the track then begins to slow down but he overruns bait and then tracks backwards. 

I think heavier bait is what is needed right now. 

The other thing I am think is instead of placing him right in front of the track, I should start him a lifts ways back and let him find it on his own. 

What do you all think? I know there are a lot of Sch/ipo people here as well as others who do quite a bit of scent work. I could really use the advice. 

Thanks


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Chris Keister said:


> What do you all think? I know there are a lot of Sch/ipo people here as well as others who do quite a bit of scent work. I could really use the advice.


Let me give it a go. First off you seem to be overly concerned with the scent pad. All dogs treat the scent pad differently, some spend a lot of time, some barely notice it. Both may be correct. The difference is how the dog tracks for the first leg of the track. If a dog takes the scent pad in quickly, and the first leg is sloppy and hectic, then the dog should be faulted for not spending time at the scent pad. But if the dog takes the scent pad in quickly then tracks perfectly on the first leg of the track then the scent pad shouldn't be judged harshly because the dog obviously didn't need to spend more time at the scent pad. Now this is the way that I and several judges that I respect see this, other people might disagree. But anyway the scent pad is nothing to stress over.

I hate the three track method. Dogs are creatures of patterns and habits, and on trial day you are not going to get three practice tracks to calm your dog down. So why get your dog in the habit/pattern of tracking badly for a couple of tracks when he first comes to the field? I would suggest you find a new pre-track ritual. For instance walking the dog for a while before you track or simply letting the dog lie down and take in the situation for a while. You can do anything that knocks the edge off with out the dog loading or coming into drive. 


Don't be in a rush to pick up the food. Most IPO dogs have food on the track all of the time for life. 

Circle tracks don't make sense to me. I believe that dogs scent the decay of the track. They go from the freshest scent to the least fresh. When you track in a circle the scent gets stronger on each revolution and this is the opposite of how the dog will be tracking later on. So I think circle tracks may hinder a dogs ability to recover from getting lost and working out cross tracks. 

The first people I saw doing circle tracks, about 12 years ago, did it because the were too lazy to lay a real track and thought they were clever to do circles. 

And a big picture concept to leave you with. IPO tracking is about temperament. The dog has to have the genetic ability to be nonreactive and focused while in drive. So bringing this quality out of your dog should always be in the forefront of your mind when making training decisions.


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

Thanks Chris. Especially the suggestion to walk my dog or allow him to burn off a little before actually trying to track. I'm gonna do that for sure. 

I am doing the three track methods because that is really the only point of reference I have at the moment. Patterson does say there should come a time when the first track is as good as the third and that's when you move on. I see your point though. 

I will try to take vids tommorrow so you all can get a better idea of where we are at. Hopefully that will generate some more advice and guidance from those with experience. 

Appreciate the help. Thanks


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

One more question regarding your last paragraph. Dog is from ring lines so not the best geneticaly for tracking. Some reactivity is desired and bred for by the breeder. With that said, he is understanding the concept and eagerly working the track.

With that in mind, do you have any other suggestions on how to offset drive loading and reactivity? I am sure these traits will be naturally increasing as he matures.


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

Just to clarify, circle tracks should only be laid once. At least the way I do them.

No different then laying a serpentine or straight track. It is just used to keep the speed down, the dog self corrects as if it wants to speed off it won’t be rewarded. It is great for teaching pups. I sit back and watch my Malinois pup teach herself\\/

My older Malinois is a blend of KNPV and Ring lines, not an IPO titled dog in her pedigree. It shouldn't matter. Any dog can learn to track. It is natural for them to use their nose, the key is teaching them a specific style of doing it, which is un natural (obedience).


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

The track is only laid once, but the dog is supposed to be able to run it as many times as it needs to. And if I remember right you can actually stomp the track in two or three times before putting the dog on it. I watched Ivan's video on it. That's what I remember.

I tried it a few times with my dog. Sort of defeats the purpose I think.


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Al6WX3pv7t4

Video from this morning. Please let me know what you think and provide any ideas, advice, or constructive critisism


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## Bart Karmich (Jul 16, 2010)

If you want some IPO tracking advice, I would go with Ivan's video at trainperview.com that was mentioned. He does circle tracks, off-lead and explains how and why in the video.

If you want my general advice (no IPO tracking success here like Ivan ok) Get a harness. Not some crazy leather gladiator thing with chest plates and fifteen cast bronze buckles but a light cotton or nylon harness, doesn't have to be 'for tracking' but a small or adjustable pet dog harness works great. It's better for working nose-down and it's a great classical conditioning part of the routine. It goes on at the scent pad or right before you cast him, and it comes off at the end of the track.

The pup doesn't look like he's really made the association between the track and the rewards at this point. It seems like he's just hunting around for the food and that's it. He may be eager for the food which is good, but I don't see the eagerness for the scent itself. Because of that, I would keep working to pair the track with the rewards until you see the light turn on in his little head. You have to read your own dog, but when I see a head-snap onto odor when the food is still a few feet downwind, then I know the dog is getting it.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

I actually was stating that I do not feel Ivan's methods are the best.


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## Bart Karmich (Jul 16, 2010)

right... I can appreciate that and Christopher's advice about why he doesn't like circle tracks may make sense too, but I do not have Ivan's results in IPO tracking. How many IPO3 tracks have you scored at regionals or above? What were your scores? Not saying you don't have good advice, but that I'm sure Mr. Keister wants to consider the source, and in my case, no IPO success. In Ivan's, some.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

I'm on my first IPO dog. Ivan has done well, but also been disqualified twice for cheating during tracking.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I really like these tracking training DVDs. http://www.fleming-plumb.ca/videos.html


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

I watched your video and I thought the pup showed quite a bit of focus for such a young one. 

I know people much much more accomplished than I will ever be don't mind letting a dog track backwards, but for some reason it makes me crazy. It might have something to do with what a tracking guy told us at a seminar once: experienced dogs, if led to a track in the middle, will find the track and follow the direction the tracklayer went more often than not. So in my pea brain, I figured if my dog ever lost the track, I'd hope he found it and headed the right direction. But if I taught him either way is cool, maybe he wouldn't be able to. 

I could be remembering it wrong but it's in my head and stuck there! 

Laura


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

Katie,

I don’t know much about Ivan’s way of training but I do love hearing all the different ways people train looking for the same/similar end results. 

I only allow my dog to track a track once and now that the pup has been tracking circles for 2 months I don’t see her wanting to go backwards.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Tracey Hughes said:


> Katie,
> 
> I don’t know much about Ivan’s way of training but I do love hearing all the different ways people train looking for the same/similar end results.
> 
> I only allow my dog to track a track once and now that the pup has been tracking circles for 2 months I don’t see her wanting to go backwards.


I'm all about hearing every possible way to do something. I like that you're doing your own thing. I was just saying that Ivan's video allows the opposite of what you're doing.

Probably why you're pup is doing better than others using that method.


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

@Bob I was looking at that video it for the same money, decided to buy a puppy leg sleeve. If it has you recommendation, it may be my next purchase!

@laura thanks for the positive comments. It actually looks much different watching on video than from standing behind the dog. Watching the video, I didn't think it was horrible


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

That looks like a nice puppy. The tracking is fine for his age he shows plenty of interest in the track and that's really all that I would expect from the little guy. But I do have some handling advise .


Don't ever point or show the dog where the track is. He is the one tracking not you. I believe that pointing out the track teaches the dog to become dependent on you. He learns that when he can't find the track Chris is going to point it out to him. So later on down the line when the dog gets lost is he going to work it out for himself or is he going to ask daddy for the answer?


You should try to stand on the track directly in back of the dog. This helps the dog learn to orient himself to you and work out the track. Also while you are in back of the dog you can stop him from tracking backward, which you never want the dog to do. He should learn that the track goes in one direction only. See my post above about scent decay and Laura's post about dogs knowing which way the track goes. I stay right on the dogs butt and step on the food that he passes. 


Honestly Chris, when my dogs are that age I don't do formal tracking training with them. I just play scent games with them. For instance, I have my daughter walk across the park and hide without my pup seeing her. I then come out with my dog off leash and let him hang around the area where my daughter started walking from. Eventually the dog will notice her scent and start following her. When he finds her he will jump up and start to initiate play with her. She ignores the dog completely and she and I start walking again with the dog as one happy family. Or I find a pile of wood chips. Pick one chip up and rub it with your scent. Now get your pup hyped on the chip in your hand and throw it back on the pile with the other chips and let your pup find the one you threw. If he brings back the wrong chip, ignore it and walk over and pick up the correct chip and throw it again. Soon the pup will learn to bring back the correct chip and you can start making the game more challenging.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> It might have something to do with what a tracking guy told us at a seminar once: experienced dogs, if led to a track in the middle, will find the track and follow the direction the tracklayer went more often than not. So in my pea brain, I figured if my dog ever lost the track, I'd hope he found it and headed the right direction.


This is absolutely true. I have done this with my own dogs to prove that they can tell the difference. 

I once tried to track my old dog backwards on a track. This normally great tracking dog would go about 15 paces down the track, turn around and try to come back in the right direction. But he would see me standing there and knew that he should not be tracking toward me so he would turn around and go backwards again. He did this twice, then picked his head up, air scented an artical on another leg of the track, trotted over to the article and indicated it.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> This is absolutely true. I have done this with my own dogs to prove that they can tell the difference.
> 
> I once tried to track my old dog backwards on a track. This normally great tracking dog would go about 15 paces down the track, turn around and try to come back in the right direction. But he would see me standing there and knew that he should not be tracking toward me so he would turn around and go backwards again. He did this twice, then picked his head up, air scented an artical on another leg of the track, trotted over to the article and indicated it.



I have read one explanation of this is the dog's nose is so sensitive that one nostril will pick up a scent before the other and thus giving the direction.
Don't know how accurate that is or how it was determined.


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## Bart Karmich (Jul 16, 2010)

I can tell you the dog will not likely learn to discern the direction of the track on tracks that have been overlaid or back-tracked. If the foundation is done on circles or by walking back over the track in both directions, the dog is not learning this. However, in IPO or AKC tracking I don't believe there is ever a real risk of the dog tracking the wrong direction; but in police or SAR work, it seems like the dog really needs to know which direction to follow the track because the handler in those cases may not know.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Bart Karmich said:


> However, in IPO or AKC tracking I don't believe there is ever a real risk of the dog tracking the wrong direction


There is a chance of the dog doing it in both AKC and IPO. The dog can always get lost on the tack and then pick up the track again in the middle of a leg.


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

I don't plan on double laying the tracks for much longer. 

@Chris I actually have only pointed to the track maybe three or four times. I did it there to demonstrate the dog seems to launch the first 2 feet of the track before putting his nose down. Wether I allow him to find it or point it out. It seems he picks up the scent but does not put his nose down until he is about 2 feet into the track. One of the reasons I was questioning the use of a scent pad. Wondering if it would help , hurt or didn't matter. 

I honestly believe I caused this by not baiting the track enPugh in the beginning, then having a jackpot at the end. He understands the track brings the reward but is looking for the big jackpot. He spends much more time and has more focus at the end of the track.


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

So I plan on experimenting and seeing what works best. Defiantly no more jackpots at the end. I'm gonna play around with type of bait, placement of bait, length of track, circles, etc. In any form of training I'm a believer in going with what works.

In this video, he wasn't really hungry and I was using kibble. When he is hungry he just goes to fast. Gonna switch to hotdogs and cut them real small to see how/if it changes anything


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Chris Keister said:


> So I plan on experimenting and seeing what works best. Defiantly no more jackpots at the end. I'm gonna play around with type of bait, placement of bait, length of track, circles, etc. In any form of training I'm a believer in going with what works.
> 
> In this video, he wasn't really hungry and I was using kibble. When he is hungry he just goes to fast. Gonna switch to hotdogs and cut them real small to see how/if it changes anything


What you're doing now seems to be working. Why not just stick with that? Your dog is a baby. Picking a solid foundation and sticking with it is always best, IMO.


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## Bart Karmich (Jul 16, 2010)

Christopher Smith said:


> There is a chance of the dog doing it in both AKC and IPO. The dog can always get lost on the tack and then pick up the track again in the middle of a leg.


 
The dog would be screwed when he came off the track in the first place. If he got as far as getting turned around, the points would really being coming off. If he had to take as long as it would to determine track direction by any means other than looking where the handler is standing then I don't really see that dog scoring. My point is that the skill of attaining the track's direction is not used in competition tracking because the behavior needed to employ it would cost too many points. 

I do not believe it is practical for a dog to tell track direction on sniff. They are going to have to follow it for a few yards to compare down track scent from up track scent. If they are figuring it out faster than that it is because they're evaluating blown scent or visual cues that are not practical to rely upon.


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

Good point Katie! 

I want to reiterate the ultimate goal is Police Service with passing scores in Sch or Akc events if I choose to play in them. What I hear from people with experience in real world tracking is if a dog is to controlled in their tracking, in real life scenarios when the track becomes difficult, the dogs become to worries about making mistakes, to work the track out on their own. 

I have heard this from a very good trailing trainer that works SAR, PSD trainers, and from Dick Stalls book. 

So I am taking the philosophy of allowing him to think and work things out on his own without much compulsion or influence based on a desire for good competition scores. 

Not sure if that really matters for the sake of this discussion but wanted to throw that out for those who are offering their advice.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Chris, AKC tracking is pass or fail. No points to worry about. Just giterdone! 
The basic TD track is as long as the SchIII but the deep nose and perfect corners in Schutzhund aren't nearly as critical in the AKC TD.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Bart Karmich said:


> The dog would be screwed when he came off the track in the first place. If he got as far as getting turned around, the points would really being coming off. If he had to take as long as it would to determine track direction by any means other than looking where the handler is standing then I don't really see that dog scoring.


That's nonsense. If the dog comes off of the track you are not "screwed". If the dog fails to recover and find the track then you're screwed. If you had a scintilla of IPO knowledge you would do a back flip into your own ass, STFU and disappear from embarrassment after saying something like that.




> My point is that the skill of attaining the track's direction is not used in competition tracking because the behavior needed to employ it would cost too many points.


Your point is grounded in a firm foundation of ignorance. How the hell do you know what is used for competition tracking? YOU HAVE NEVER COMPETED IN A COMPETITION WITH A DOG IN YOUR LIFE.



> They are going to have to follow it for a few yards to compare down track scent from up track scent. If they are figuring it out faster than that it is because they're evaluating blown scent or visual cues that are not practical to rely upon.


What do you base this on? Surely you are not relying on your mayfly's worth of experience. Can you produce a study?


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

Interesting little article on direction of travel....

http://doglawreporter.blogspot.com/2009/06/how-many-footsteps-does-tracking-dog.html


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

I tried out yesterday to see if the direction of travel would be confusing by starting in the middle. 
The freshest track was twenty minutes, the oldest three hours. All were on grass contaminated in a park. I gave the dog an article, then turned her loose about 30 yards or so from the track. Each time she passed it circled around and went the correct direction. We set each different directions. One with the wind, one away, and one parallel. 

The track leading into the wind took a slightly larger circle. She actually faced away for a brief second then ran the correct direction.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

It's cool that you tried this for yourself. What is the experience level of your dog?


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

She is two year old certified napwda trailing. She combines air scent and tracking, but for sar that's good. Lol not so much for titling a dog  

She is hard on me tracking, she is wide open and has zero food interest so I havent been able to slow her down, just wears us both out, so I just turned her loose since I feel I inhibit her tracking methods. 

The pup is nice and slow, but I didn't work her, wanting to get hrd down pat first.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Thanks. I was asking because I'm curious if this ability comes from genetics or experience. I'm also curious if young dogs or puppies are able to do this?


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## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

Christopher Smith said:


> Thanks. I was asking because I'm curious if this ability comes from genetics or experience. I'm also curious if young dogs or puppies are able to do this?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zpNznq0QjI

This is a little long and kinda like paint drying to watch, but its a circle track layed counter clockwise. He's 16wks and the first track he's ever been on. There's times he'll go the wrong direction, but only for a bit and then he'll go the right direction. When he finishes the track, he's going the right direction. He never went all the way around a circle the wrong way and by maybe the 5th or 6th track, never went the wrong way. I don't know if it's genetics, couldnt be experience on the first track? I don't know.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> Thanks. I was asking because I'm curious if this ability comes from genetics or experience. I'm also curious if young dogs or puppies are able to do this?



My now 8 1/2 yr old GSD has been tracking/trailing since he was a pup. Even as a pup he would come across a laid track/trail at a 90 degree and never seemed to have the slightest problem with direction. It was natural with him and he was finding me in the woods at 12-14 wks old. In the beginning all the tracks were started in an open field and went into woods. This was for SAR.
I never tested in on a sport track although he always did a nice job on those once he figured out the difference.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Originally I responded to this and then deleted the post. My experience, which is fairly limited, has shown that a dog can do this from an early age and naturally. I wouldn't say this is true of every dog of course, but I have seen it occur with young dogs not taught to do this.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Christopher Smith said:


Don't ever point or show the dog where the track is.


You should try to stand on the track directly in back of the dog.

First comment, I agree with. Let the dog use its nose and secondly, you might have sausage smells or whatever (?) on your fingers which could distract the pup / dog.

Second comment, if you follow directly behind the dog, you are messing up his track. Walk sideways to it in case he has to turn around and re-assess. After all, you want a dog that LEADS you to the end of the track.

What Nicole said: a lot of pups are naturals so why not make a short track without food, maybe 7-8 yards and place some low smelling food as reward at the end of it, i.e. kibble, etc. Just walk up to it with the pup /dog and watch his reactions. If he shows no interest, you will have to train him but if he shows interest and works out the track to the end, you will know you have a natural tracker.

Tracking isn't rocket science but a lot of people think they have to help the pup / dog and end up thwarting it.

There is a lot of info on temperature, winds, various terrains, etc. on the Internet which should be read by wouldbe trackers so that they can realise why the dog in question does "this and that".


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Second comment, if you follow directly behind the dog, you are messing up his track. Walk sideways to it in case he has to turn around and re-assess.


How can you walk next to the track if you don't know where the track is?

I believe that you put your dog at a disadvantage if he can't rely on you being consistent. The only place where the handler can stand and be in a consistent place is directly in back of the dog.

Also the handler should be in back of the dog so that he can't accidentally teach and help the dog with subconscious body queues. This is a big problem with new handlers.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Well, you know where the beginning of the track is!! And if you can read the dog, you can tell if he's "on the track". 

This has nothing to do with consistency. You *are* behind the dog but just at the side of the track allowing him to turn round if needs be. The body language is usually fed to the dog through the line in any case, whether you are directly behind or sideways behind.

Obviously for the inexperienced tracking dog, short line and being directly behind him is beneficial. I'm talking about the dog who can track but isn't fully proficient. And rather would I let him turn round and pick up the track again but get to the end than stand in his way.

Not just my opinion but no big deal.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Have you ever in your life seen a dog walk past an article by ten meters then turn around and indicate it?


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Christopher Smith said:


> Have you ever in your life seen a dog walk past an article by ten meters then turn around and indicate it?


Now you're splitting hairs...

We were always taught not to walk directly behind the dog. What happens at a corner for instance when the dog isn't certain and retraces his steps and you're standing there on the track itself?

No matter - we can agree to differ.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Now you're splitting hairs...
> 
> We were always taught not to walk directly behind the dog. What happens at a corner for instance when the dog isn't certain and retraces his steps and you're standing there on the track itself?
> 
> No matter - we can agree to differ.


I think the point he is making is that the handler will be 33 feet behind the dog in a trial...I am guessing a dog having to backtrack 33 feet, where it would actually be a problem, is a very rare occurrence indeed..


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

I may have missed something, so correct me if I am wrong, the end result will be real tracking not competition?
If so, you should be having other people lay tracks, and you don't have to worry about where you are standing, as the dog is not scenting you, but the track layer. The dog should learn to work around you, and others, as I have yet to run a real track that has not been contaminated, or had several well intentioned officers run up the dogs ass if she stops to check direction or pick up at water or road crossings lol.
Also helps with scent specific tracking later.

The direction of travel, I guess I haven't really tried it on young pups, since I usually start them fairly close the beginning of a track, yet even still, there is a trail going both directions. Unless the person was to skydive in. But I do aim them in the direction of travel. 
I will have to try my young pup this week to see. Not planning on tracking.much with her, but would be a good experiment.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

julie allen said:


> I may have missed something, so correct me if I am wrong, the end result will be real tracking not competition?
> .





Chris Keister said:


> I think the ultimate goal plays a factor.....Julie I assume from your avitar you are training for S&R?
> 
> My ultimate goal is PSD but also *want to play in protection sports*.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> I think the point he is making is that the handler will be 33 feet behind the dog in a trial...I am guessing a dog having to backtrack 33 feet, where it would actually be a problem, is a very rare occurrence indeed..


10 m lead length and no more is allowed fôr the dog to "stray" from the track, at least it was in the last IPO rules. However in difficult conditions, a dog may "lose" the track and circle and then come back to it.

In training one is often closer to the dog and so to avoid any problems most handler (here anyway) walk behind and next to the track but not on it.

As I say, it's no big deal but anything to avoid disturbing the dog is good in my mind.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Gillian Schuler said:


> 10 m lead length and no more is allowed fôr the dog to "stray" from the track, at least it was in the last IPO rules. However in difficult conditions, a dog may "lose" the track and circle and then come back to it.
> 
> In training one is often closer to the dog and so to avoid any problems most handler (here anyway) walk behind and next to the track but not on it.
> 
> As I say, it's no big deal but anything to avoid disturbing the dog is good in my mind.


thanks for clarifying


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

Wow I didn't know this thread was still going? I haven't been able to train for a while, been super busy. I will throw up some more video when I have some time


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