# Concealed Rest Area for Decoys - Mandatory?



## Albert Pabilona (Jul 7, 2008)

Hello. We are doing Mondio Ring, and the Rules state that: A resting area must be available for the Decoys to conceal themselves while they are not working with the dogs. This site should be located at least 5 m from the field, and such that the dogs cannot detect the presence of the Decoys.

Based on a little internet research, I think other sports have similar rules. 

My question is: should decoys who are off the field, but still visible to the participating dogs in a trial, be considered a fair distraction? Or should rules like the one above be enforced strictly? 

I hope other people will share their opinions and experiences regarding this. 

P.S. I made a mistake posting this first in the Members Bios. Sorry.


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

its enforced. Usually I have a decoy tent set way away from the field for the trial. Its only fair to everyone trialing.


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## Tim Lynam (Jun 12, 2009)

Albert Pabilona said:


> My question is: should decoys who are off the field, but still visible to the participating dogs in a trial, be considered a fair distraction? Or should rules like the one above be enforced strictly?


Absolutely on both accounts. 

Example #1

I was the decoy at trial in a French Ring II blind search. The dog found me and alerted. Another decoy, suited up was taking a break in the parking lot and having an animated conversation with someone. The dog left me (I was still "static" waiting for the Judges signal to try to escape) and headed for the animated decoy. The Judge signaled me to escape and I was literally 100 yards away before the other decoy realized what was happening. Needless to say, the dog's score was not good...

Example #2

During a trial in France a dog was sent to do a blind search and jumped the fence, searched the crowd in the stands, jumped the fence back onto the trail field and found the decoy in the blind. The time allotted for the search was no exceeded so the dog still scored good points. Had the other trial decoys not been "sequestered" away from the field and been seated and quiet, the dog may well have easily found them and gotten zero points.

I was trained as a French Ring decoy in the "early days" of it's introduction in North America. From the time you put on your Costume to the end of the trial, you never even removed your jacket until told to do so by the Judge. When you were off the field you were expected to be quiet, static and hidden from view. All dogs were to be worked the same way (consistency of the work) therefore if your behavior OFF the field influenced the work going on ON the field there was hell to pay!

I don't see that discipline amongst many decoys today. Sad. The rules are important and the last ones to violate them should be the people working the trial...


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

if the dog finds the decoy in the tent on a blind search in FR the decoy in the tent is to wait till the judge says then escape and shoot the gun. Then carry on with the escort. It isnt a 0.


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## Tim Lynam (Jun 12, 2009)

Daniel Lybbert said:


> if the dog finds the decoy in the tent on a blind search in FR the decoy in the tent is to wait till the judge says then escape and shoot the gun. Then carry on with the escort. It isnt a 0.


Did someone say anything about a zero score?


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

yea you did.
Had the other trial decoys not been "sequestered" away from the field and been seated and quiet, the dog may well have easily found them and gotten zero points.


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## Tim Lynam (Jun 12, 2009)

I see the confusion and apologize for it. I did not explain myself thoroughly. If the dog had taken the extra time (the dog barely made the find in time as it was) to find the decoys on the other side of the field from the stands it would have exceeded the time allowed for the exercise. Hence the Zero comment.

By the way, in the first example, the French Judge did not handle the problem in the way you stated. Had the dog not left the "off duty" decoy and re-engaged me 100 yards away in the allotted time, the dog would have gotten Zero. The Judge may have given a break on the meters I had escaped due to the fact the problem was CAUSED by the off duty decoy, though I don't know that for a fact. The rules have been changed/watered down considerably since the late 1980's. Not always for the better, IMO.


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## Jake Brandyberry (Jan 24, 2010)

I love how people involved in a sport 25 years ago make such broad statements about decoys and how hard things are now. If things are so easy now tim, get a dog and compete. You should win everything without much effort.


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

you are still right Tim. But I think you only get 10 m pr escape on the point deduction. So 4 escapes makes still 40 pnts. But a dog wont loose all 40 on 1 escape. That being said if the dog doesnt bite after 100 meters he wont win anyways.
Take it easy Jake the old boys know alot about dogs and ring.


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## Jake Brandyberry (Jan 24, 2010)

Points break down to 10 for the find and 30 for the escape. If the dog finds and barks, then you have locked in your 10 find points. Most you can lose is the 30 points for the escort. There is no limit on how many meters you can take per escape.


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## Tim Lynam (Jun 12, 2009)

Jake Brandyberry said:


> I love how people involved in a sport 25 years ago make such broad statements about decoys and how hard things are now. If things are so easy now tim, get a dog and compete. You should win everything without much effort.


I don't really give a f*ck what you think boy. Save your attitude for the trial field.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Tim Lynam said:


> By the way, in the first example, the French Judge did not handle the problem in the way you stated. Had the dog not left the "off duty" decoy and re-engaged me 100 yards away in the allotted time, the dog would have gotten Zero. The Judge may have given a break on the meters I had escaped due to the fact the problem was CAUSED by the off duty decoy, though I don't know that for a fact.


The judge handed it correctly because the dog found you and alerted. If the dog finds the decoy, barks, then leaves outside the line on the ground the decoy is supposed to escape. The judge may have taken into account what distracted the decoy in the scoring, but the rest of it sounds correct.
The other scenario was about the dog finding the decoy off the field instead of the decoy on the field. 



> The rules have been changed/watered down considerably since the late 1980's. Not always for the better, IMO.


I disagree. In some areas, such as the jump heights, the requirements (rules) have been watered down with lower jumps. But in other areas the rules have actually gotten much harder/stricter. It's actually easier to zero an exercise now than it used to be.


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## Tim Lynam (Jun 12, 2009)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I disagree. In some areas, such as the jump heights, the requirements (rules) have been watered down with lower jumps. But in other areas the rules have actually gotten much harder/stricter. It's actually easier to zero an exercise now than it used to be.


Don't think for a second that even with the rule changes I think French Ring Sport is easy. Besides, that's not what the OP asked for. My main point was a decoy's behavior off the field can and sometimes does have an impact on the trial results. It is up to the Judge to make sure all rules (such as the tent off field) are adhered to and that all decoys present themselves in a manner that is nothing short of the best there is. If I were to ever trial again you can rest assured I know the "Modern Day" rules as well as you. That would be part of my job working for you.

There were no rules (and still aren't to my knowledge) on how a decoy (me) was to interact with competitors at dinner for instance but I knew from the Trial Judge what was expected of me. I learned quickly how my behavior even away from the field impacted everyone and everything from the competitors confidence in my fairness to the Judge being able to have no doubt I was correct when reporting extra bites etc. during trial. These things make a difference in peoples perception of Ring. So do rule changes. As a decoy I don't have to like the rule changes, I just have to adhere to those changes. Oh and of course figure out a new way to steal points.\\/


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## Albert Pabilona (Jul 7, 2008)

Tim Lynam said:


> *My main point was a decoy's behavior off the field can and sometimes does have an impact on the trial results. It is up to the Judge to make sure all rules (such as the tent off field) are adhered to and that all decoys present themselves in a manner that is nothing short of the best there is*.
> 
> I totally agree with this.
> 
> ...


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## Tim Lynam (Jun 12, 2009)

Albert Pabilona said:


> Aside from low scores and not passing, a major concern for me is the dog somehow being "set up" to fail. During a trial, it is difficult for a handler to correct a dog that focuses on, and is ultimately distracted by, a decoy off the field. If this happens more than once, the dog might "learn" this new behavior and start acting the same way during every trial. :-k
> 
> The obvious solution is to insist that the rules be applied fairly and consistently. But would you train for this possibility and put in that extra effort to teach your dog focus only on the decoy(s) inside the ring? Or is the dog actually not focused enough on his handler to begin with, making it more of a training issue?


IMO What you are describing is a dog becoming "Trial Wise." During a trial the dog learns there is never a correction for bad behavior so it does things that it has never done before such as eat the food in the food refusal exercise or screw around in the change of positions. The handlers going for a Championship level dog always train for every possible thing that can go wrong. A trial wise dog adds a whole new set of problems that people with more experience with that than me can give advice. I know in Ring Sport, top level handlers have volunteered to use their dog for the "Dog in White" so they can correct the dog on the trial field. It precludes them from trailing that dog in the competition but does wonders for reseting the trial wise dogs head in the next trial.


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## Albert Pabilona (Jul 7, 2008)

Volunteering to be the "dog in white" so we can correct during a trial? Very, very interesting...


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

I was at a trial with my dog once. The decoy jogs past the field in the direction of myself and my dog as we are approaching the field to begin. He is fully clothed in his suit. I shook my head, cuz the dog's mind is blown at this and I already new I'd lost her. The judge sees this and says nothing. Needless to say we failed that trial before it began. I didn't complain or anything. I guess some judges don't consider it a big deal. Dog should be trained and controllable no matter what goes on I guess. She is "trial wise," but that is all my fault and training. I am a fan of the "old way." Hang in the tent, quiet and out of view until break time. Not sure if we would have passed to begin with. Maybe not. The obedience would have gone a lot smoother though.


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

I can make my dog do all his ob even with a decoy on the field off the field sitting on the fence or jumping off the roof. It is irrelevent to me as a handler. As a decoy I stay in the tent and peek around the corner or get undressed to watch. I like decoying and I like to watch the trial. So I do both.


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## Albert Pabilona (Jul 7, 2008)

I think that we have to train beyond what is required by the rules, and to "proof" our dogs as much as we can against distractions off the field like unconcealed decoys, little barking dogs right beside the field, and the like.

But during a trial, would you insist that the rules be applied, or would you just let it go and hope for the best? 

For example, in a mondio ring send out exercise towards the end of a football field. The decoy rest area is a few meters away from the corner of the same end. Two to three decoys sit and move freely in that area in plain view of the dog. Some dogs became excited while going to the starting area, probably anticipating a face attack, flee attack, or defense of handler, exercise. During the send out, most of these dogs ran towards the decoys. Low or zero scores. 

What are your opinions on this? Poorly-trained dogs, or improper set-up for a trial field? 

Incidentally, in the youtube videos I've seen of WUSV, KNPV, Belgian Ring, etc., there doesn't seem to be any decoys loitering off the field. My impression is that, barring any accidents, the concealed decoy rest area is strictly enforced.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Most clubs in KNPV don't have a real concealled decoy area as discussed here. They have an area right next to where to dogs pass to make their attacks for bitework. It is half concealled at best and the decoys sit in this area as the dogs pass them by on their way to the decoy on field. Sometimes the decoy sits next to this area in a lawn chair and not even out of sight of the dog as it passes him by. During training at our club there might be 3 decoys at one time in the "dug out" and a whole bunch of people talking and doing whatever as the dogs pass them by on their way to the decoy on the field. During trials or competitions there are no people there in the dug out area except from the decoys and the jury but there are no elaborate areas put aside to keep other decoys completely concealled from view. I guess I am going to step on some toes with my next statement but I personally feel that if your dog has issues with decoys off the field then he is not ready to be trialed or competed with and he needs more work. The dog should be focussed on what is happening on the field and not what is happening at the sidelines. if he does react to that then its a clear indication that the dog isn't ready to trial/compete.


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