# (ab)use of e-collars



## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

I have not really been active training my own dog for about ten years now.When i was, i used an e-collar a few times and only for out issues,worked like a charm.I have seen expert use of this instrument going back 25 years,very few people had one and i think even fewer new how to use it.
About ten years ago i have seen the worsed abuse i my eyes,it was done by a professional ring trainer and it made me very aware of what is going on.The dog in question was a young mal and i think a very good dog basicly.The problem was he did not like his handler and everytime he was of leash he would take off.
The fixing was as followes,they took the dog into a large enclosure and let him loose,the dog took off and he was zapped.He stopped and was obviously confused and he left in another direction,he was zapped again .
Every time he moved away from the handler he was punished and it did not take too long before he understood why it happened.It made him stay with his handler but he was not a happy camper.
The point i am trying to make,nowadays everyone seems to be owning an e-collar and i know a lot of people are using them because they have a problem they do not seem able to fix without.
If you know what you are doing i can see people having a great advantage in training but i am afraid a lot of people are using it out of frustration or even worse anger.I am not claiming to be an expert on e-collars at all but is it overused in training these days?Some countries forbid the use and it is easy to see why,but using it wisely is a lot better then having to beat the living **** out of a dog who doesnt want to out.
These issues we used to solve only when nobody else was around,but with the use of the collar it seemed a lot more friendly to the animal and most people did not even notice you were using it.I always think it is a lot more rewarding if you can get into the dogs head and find a way to get him to comply without using electricity.


----------



## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

jack van strien said:


> I have not really been active training my own dog for about ten years now.When i was, i used an e-collar a few times and only for out issues,worked like a charm.I have seen expert use of this instrument going back 25 years,very few people had one and i think even fewer new how to use it.
> About ten years ago i have seen the worsed abuse i my eyes,it was done by a professional ring trainer and it made me very aware of what is going on.The dog in question was a young mal and i think a very good dog basicly.The problem was he did not like his handler and everytime he was of leash he would take off.
> The fixing was as followes,they took the dog into a large enclosure and let him loose,the dog took off and he was zapped.He stopped and was obviously confused and he left in another direction,he was zapped again .
> Every time he moved away from the handler he was punished and it did not take too long before he understood why it happened.It made him stay with his handler but he was not a happy camper.
> ...



I know what you mean....a few years back we had a guy here that worked exclusive with Ecollars on every dog...he didnt look at the individual he just threw the ecollar on and that was that and it showed in the dogs...he worked with his fingers in his left pocket...so every time his dog was with him be itin training, competition or exam and he put his fingers in the left pocket you would actualy see the dog cringing and lower itself closer to the ground as if knowing what was coming...a sad sight it was...
thats not training dogs for me

I use an Ecollar on my dogs...have the dogtra NCP2300 which is a great tool but nothing more...its a TOOL and not an instrument of training and if i can avoid using it i will...its more of a challenge to get through to the dog then to simply say ZAP...at the end of the day i prefer my dogs tail in air...doing their work as i expect them to and still enjoying themselves...not walking on the field, tails hung low and crouching like a dachshund...but thats the problem with most of todays trainers isnt it...they heard something...got half of it...and decide thats the way to go...

a little bit of information in the wrong hands can be a very scary thing indeed!


----------



## John Campbell (Jul 25, 2010)

The fact that the E-collar is available to everyone (they sell them at bass pro shops) has only done one thing in regards to dog training. It has made it so the morons have to burn less calories screwing a dog up than they did before. before ecollars it was pinch collars and choke chains and batons sticks tree branches what ever. an asshole is still and asshole now they are just fatter assholes.


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Jack,

A long time ago Gene England told me an e-collar can be used to teach or punish. If you use one at appropriate levels, it's a great tool. If all you use one for is as an "electronic big stick" to blast a dog into compliance or to punish him. You are a fool, as well as an asshole


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Withoout having statistics to verify my feelings I can only suspect that misues of e-collars, pinch collars, "choke" collars is more common then using them correctly. 
When needed and used correctly they can be great tools.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

You have't seen a room full of pet people milling around a room with puppies to adults mindlessly zapping them. Its one of those popular schools. Back in the day they put prong collars on everything. Now its e-collars. I guess they get a lotta money from selling them. Theoretically in a skilled set of hands, they could have some use depending on the problem, but wayyyy overused, especially for the pet community.

Terrasita


----------



## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Ive been using an Ecollar for about 15 years now...and i can still count on 1 hand the amount of times i actualy used it as a correction....my view is that an ecollar for most is an easy way out to use for most that are not willing to do the actual training...so basicly a copout if you will...as i said earlier its a great tool to use but a tool and nothing more...i have to say tho with the new Ecollar i bought im mighty happy that it has the possitive stimulation on it...its a great feature to allow me to reward the dog when i cant reach and they respond very good to it...unfortunatly most of the Ecollar will always ignore that button tho


----------



## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Alice,can you explain how this possitive stimulation works?Imo there should be more people teaching the use of e-collars during seminars.Buying an e-collar and then using it must be like learning to drive a car from a manual?
I think that todays top competitors are all using the e-collar and they must have found out by trial and error?
Instead of bashing the people that are using it the wrong way people who do know how to use it should be teaching people like me?
I am surprised not many people have questions about the proper use of it,come on folks this is conflict free!
No one is going to give you a hard time, a stupid question is a lot better then a stupid mistake!
I have also seen some people from the KNJV(royal dutch hunting society) using it and i was very impressed.
By the way that is a branch of dogsport i do not read a lot about.


----------



## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

jack van strien said:


> Alice,can you explain how this possitive stimulation works?Imo there should be more people teaching the use of e-collars during seminars.Buying an e-collar and then using it must be like learning to drive a car from a manual?
> I think that todays top competitors are all using the e-collar and they must have found out by trial and error?
> Instead of bashing the people that are using it the wrong way people who do know how to use it should be teaching people like me?
> I am surprised not many people have questions about the proper use of it,come on folks this is conflict free!
> ...


I need to go out to do some work with my dog but when i get back ill try and make a post on how I use the ECollar with positive stimulation...i think its one of the best features of the Ecollar...who wouldnt want to reward in the distance ? But i will say one thing...its not buy it, slap it on, use it...be it in reward or correction...


----------



## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Ok well im not teacher so dont take my words for gospel...there are far better people here on forum to explain the proper use of an ecollar then myself...

Ill explain how i use it for possitive stimulation....it really isnt that hard to actualy...or atleast in my eyes it isnt..its all about using common sense!

I put my ecollar on a dog when it reaches approx 6 months of age and i let it sit there....for weeks and weeks...i dont use it for anything and i just let the dog get used to wearing it and feeling the pins on its throat and the box attached to the collar...just coze i put the ecollar on him will not mean i will ever use it tho...have had plenty of dogs i never used it on as a correction and they never got to know what it was they just wore it and that was that...

now after a few weeks i put the remote on its lowest level and go out and play with the dog...throw the ball, tug of war...just some basic fun, then i stop the play and sit down and have the dog lay down next to me and i pet it...good dog, good boy...push button for possitive stim...i look to see what he does...more often then not the dog just freaks out...its a strange thing for him since he never felt it so i make sure i have treats with me and i start playing again...then i stop play...sit down...repeat process...the dog will soon get the picture...then i start expanding it to playing fetch...he brings back ? treat in gob..push button...pet pet pet, goooood boy...its all about taking small steps to get the dog used to the stim you are giving him...i expand that to working away from him like laying down on a target a few feet away and using poss stim again....its all about giving the dog confidence in my eyes...

i also use it simultanious to correction ...again at lowest level depending on the dog...i always ALWAYS make sure i am next to the dog so i can make sure it doesnt freak the hell out when correction comes...but like i said i dont use correction often if i can avoid it....you dont have to put it on high in order to get the dogs attention...a small level will usualy get the attention and give the proper response in which case i can use the poss stim to show him what he does is right...

but this is how i use it and it might now work for everyone...it all depends on the dog and what you are asking of it at any point in the training...like i said its common sense that needs to be used and then theres the dogs that simply go through the use of an ecollar...the tough bastards that will take whatever you throw at them and just keep asking for more...

Im pretty sure there is someone on here who can better explain the proper use of the Ecollar then me and im hoping that person will come to this topic and help us out 

coze i sure as hell aint no expert on the matter...i just do what works for me depening on the dog infront of me at the time.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

my dogtra has a vibrate button, that buzzes the box like a cell phone on vibrate...this is my positive for my ecollar...associated it with food, and verbal...now use it to let dog know she is doing well...kind of like a clicker...but felt physically by the dog...


----------



## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> my dogtra has a vibrate button, that buzzes the box like a cell phone on vibrate...this is my positive for my ecollar...associated it with food, and verbal...now use it to let dog know she is doing well...kind of like a clicker...but felt physically by the dog...


my Dogtra has the same vibrate function and it works very well as a reward for my dog 

im glad the found it time to start making dual purpose collars...if only owners would start using it that way instead of zapping the hell out of a dog out of ignorance then we would finaly get somewhere...


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

So Joby's is on vibrate. Alice, what is yours on? The "stim" becomes the marker or secondary reinforcer. Why the stim and not something else? What level Alice for the correction that he distinguishes it from the positive that is loaded with food? What distances are you working at that a sound marker wouldn't work?

Terrasita


----------



## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> So Joby's is on vibrate. Alice, what is yours on? The "stim" becomes the marker or secondary reinforcer. Why the stim and not something else? What level Alice for the correction that he distinguishes it from the positive that is loaded with food? What distances are you working at that a sound marker wouldn't work?
> 
> Terrasita


mine isnt set on anything its a button remote...grey for vibrate blue for correction....level goes from 1 to 127 ehm distances are from 150 meters to sometimes 500 or more and i dont do food rewards, never believed in having a dog work for food. to many NO FOOD NO WORK incidents ...level of correction depends on the level of stubborness...i dont like to start out to high but not to low either...its usualy more to drag the attention to me or the command given then actual fierce correction...so about level 50 but i have had dogs set as high to level 127...it all depends on the dog and the thing he is doing so you can not pinpoint a certain level at any given moment...some things will get corrected harder then others. but like i said before...i hardly use the correction at all if i can avoid it but it is used at times. 

as for a sound marker ? cant say i ever used it and dont think i ever will...not something i see as being usefull in my sport...and you could ask me to explain why but the simple fact is you would have to witness what we do in order to understand what i mean...


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Ohhhh, I don't really care what marker you use. The secondary reninforcer can have the same effect as the primary. There is a lot of distance and even some out of sight work with stock work. That is why I asked about the sound. Geoff Empey had a thread going awhile back and I think this is what he was referring to. The new fangled collars do take it to another level. 

Terrasita


----------



## Shade Whitesel (Aug 18, 2010)

So is the positive stim just a lower level that you are conditioning to make positive by associating with positive stuff? Or is a beep or something like that?


----------



## Sue DiCero (Sep 2, 2006)

There is the potential for abuse in most training situations.

People that might not use an e-collar will use a prong. Or a fursaver and use their hands - and say they do not use electric...

Low stim with postive reward....


----------



## Shade Whitesel (Aug 18, 2010)

So I'm just trying to understand this....
If you use a vibrate on the collar and condition it to mean something positive, I see a way to give you a long distance marker that the dog feels immediately. Probably even better than a verbal marker since the dog doesn't have to interpret it. 
But why and how would you use a stim to mean that long distance marker as a positive? I see it being useful as a marker for sure, but why go through the work of conditioning the low level as positive, then change the level to mean positive at a low level and correction at a high level? And then change it around according to what drive the dog is in? Maybe I'm interpreting your explanations wrong? It probably is something that has to be seen.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

this has been a topic on here for sure...there are people that emphatically state that low stim can be used as a positive, and not just "positive punishment" if you search out some threads you can read about it...


----------



## Shade Whitesel (Aug 18, 2010)

I've actually seen videos and threads on other forums about this as well. Including the clicker training forum. I was just asking Alice how she is describing it. One side effect I see is alot of tongue flicking when a stim is paired with a positive. Of course, my really insecure dog does that is well when he is concentrating on learning something. Internal stress?


----------



## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

The people I train with, we pretty much all use ecollars, but not as a tool of resort, we use it to fine tune our dogs, as Sue mentioned, low level stimulation.


----------



## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Shade Whitesel said:


> So is the positive stim just a lower level that you are conditioning to make positive by associating with positive stuff? Or is a beep or something like that?


*Its a vibrate function....no beeps at all...its either ZAP or vibrate and vibrate has no level set for it...only the ZAP has a level to it.
* 


Shade Whitesel said:


> So I'm just trying to understand this....
> If you use a vibrate on the collar and condition it to mean something positive, I see a way to give you a long distance marker that the dog feels immediately. Probably even better than a verbal marker since the dog doesn't have to interpret it.
> But why and how would you use a stim to mean that long distance marker as a positive? I see it being useful as a marker for sure, but why go through the work of conditioning the low level as positive, then change the level to mean positive at a low level and correction at a high level? And then change it around according to what drive the dog is in? Maybe I'm interpreting your explanations wrong? It probably is something that has to be seen.


*I dont get the whole low level is possitive thing to be honest...its really very simply...you do good you get vibrated...you do bad...i zap you...depending on the bad the ZAP will go up in strength...theres no reasoning and thinking behind it...people are trying to overthink things when it comes to dogs...good is possitive, bad is negative and depending on the bad its gets more negative....its like a small kid...it grabs a remote control from the table and chews on it so you tell it "put it down/dont do that" it takes a lighter and sets your cat on fire ? You spank the kid... action/reaction in equal measure...there is no need at all to overreason the use of it..*



Shade Whitesel said:


> I've actually seen videos and threads on other forums about this as well. Including the clicker training forum. I was just asking Alice how she is describing it. One side effect I see is alot of tongue flicking when a stim is paired with a positive. Of course, my really insecure dog does that is well when he is concentrating on learning something. Internal stress?
> 
> *any tool or form of training when applied wrong will create stress....you have to first teach the dog both ways and not just senselesly start rewarding or correcting..thats enough to freak any dog out...as for your mention of internal stress in your dog ? if hes as insecure as you say then its always a possibility, you afterall know him best. but are you sure its stress to start with, could it be anything else ? just coze someone says it must be so doesnt make it true  dogs can show us signs that we would call stress when they are actualy overactive or insecure or they might just need a whizz realllllly bad *


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Alice Bezemer said:


> now after a few weeks i put the remote on its lowest level and go out and play with the dog...throw the ball, tug of war...just some basic fun, then i stop the play and sit down and have the dog lay down next to me and i pet it...good dog, good boy...push button for possitive stim..


Alice, do use the vibrate for positive re-enforcement, and the "stim" (electricity) ONLY for negative (positive punishment)???

I think some people think you use the low level "stim" for something strictly positive, which has also been discussed on here...


----------



## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> Alice, do use the vibrate for positive re-enforcement, and the "stim" (electricity) ONLY for negative (positive punishment)???
> 
> I think some people think you use the low level "stim" for something strictly positive, which has also been discussed on here...



Vibrate is good only and low level stim as you call it (or ZAP) is BADDDDDD lol so negative ONLY...

maybe i didnt put my wording right...when we use the word stimulate (or atleast i do) i take it to mean GOOD....so not correction but possitive....maybe my english dutch thinking finaly needs work  thanks for putting it in perspective for me Joby  I think i best drop the STIM from my vocab coze it will confuse a lot i can see....sorry for the confusion


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Vibrate is good only and low level stim as you call it (or ZAP) is BADDDDDD lol so negative ONLY...
> 
> maybe i didnt put my wording right...when we use the word stimulate (or atleast i do) i take it to mean GOOD....so not correction but possitive....maybe my english dutch thinking finaly needs work  thanks for putting it in perspective for me Joby  I think i best drop the STIM from my vocab coze it will confuse a lot i can see....sorry for the confusion


yer choice of words is fine by me...just I think some others might have been confused...it HAS been discussed on here that low level shock can be a positive in some cases...as well...i think


----------



## Shade Whitesel (Aug 18, 2010)

Yeah, that was what I was trying to figure out, if people on this thread were talking about the vibrate as being conditioned positive or the low level stim. 
As far as my insecure dog, oh yeah, he's insecure... But when he really concentrates on stuff, he starts to get calmer, and it's wonderful to watch him think.


----------



## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

There are a very few people who are using low level stim in the same way that clickers are used, as positive reinforcement. They're giving the dog a stim at the level where he first perceives it and then giving a treat, just as people "load the clicker." They are using higher levels as corrections once the dog knows the expected behavior. 

I use the Ecollar at this same level (where the dog can first perceive it) to teach new behaviors with. I start with the recall and then go to the sit. This is done even though the dog may know these behaviors because they've been taught with other methods. Doing it this way teaches the dog that when the stim starts, even at a low level, he's done something wrong, and that when it stops, he's done the right thing. 

I've never seen evidence to show that Ecollars are misused more than any other tool and based on the numbers (there are hundreds more pinch and choke chains out there than Ecollars) I doubt that they're misused more than those tools. 

I've never seen a dog "freak out" when he felt his first stim if it was at the level where he first could feel it. If it was much higher than that, that's exactly what I'd expect though. ]

HERE'S SOME VIDEO of a dog feeling his first stim. No "freak out." He just looks at the ground. It looks more like a bug landed on him than anything else.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Lou Castle said:


> I've never seen evidence to show that Ecollars are misused more than any other tool and based on the numbers (*there are hundreds more pinch and choke chains out there than Ecollars*) I doubt that they're misused more than those tools.


Hundreds of thousands more likely...maybe millions, but I get what you are saying...


----------



## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Lou and Joby,
i can agree with that but imo the real abuse comes from people who already did the whole range of chokers and pinch collars and spikes on the inside of the collar.


----------



## Kat LaPlante (May 17, 2009)

I have not witnessed abuse with ecollars, but i imagine it goes on all the time  I did begin triaing with one recently, paired it up with a leash and prong at first and associated the stim to me. 

I bought mine off the Leerburg site and it came with a video. the techniqes were good, things I would normally not have thought of; associations, verbal responce indicating the stim levels were too high. I saw an immediate response from the dog, waaaayyyyyy fewer corrections, and a new found humility in my dog that I had never before been able to illicit. 

As far as accociating the collar with positive reinforcement....... whats wrong with an "atta boy". I dont understand the purpose in associating a low level stim with good stuff. the vibrate function, sure, but a stim? Too easily confused in my opinion. I will continue with my good dog holler from down the field.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

jack van strien said:


> Lou and Joby,
> i can agree with that but imo the real abuse comes from people who already did the whole range of chokers and pinch collars and spikes on the inside of the collar.


I agree 100%, Was just stating that I thought Lou's estimate of 100's more choke/prong collars compared to e collars was VERY LOW.


----------



## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Kat LaPlante said:


> As far as accociating the collar with positive reinforcement....... whats wrong with an "atta boy". I dont understand the purpose in associating a low level stim with good stuff. the vibrate function, sure, but a stim? Too easily confused in my opinion. I will continue with my good dog holler from down the field.


I don't do this and I'm not advocating it; just relaying information. There are a couple of reasons that these folks use the stim rather than vibe for this. First is that many dogs panic when they first feel the vibe. I've come across quite a few dogs that find the vibe more aversive than stim and those dogs will never make an association of reinforcement with it. The stim is adjustable and so it's easier to use it for this function.


----------



## Kirstyn Kerbo (Apr 3, 2010)

They are for sure way overused on pets. One story comes to mind with me: I heard a story from someone whos brothers (now ex) friend or whatever put an ecollar on a 8/9 week old GSD puppy they had just bought. It was 'barking and whining too much', which was their reason. They got one of those ones that gave a shock when the dog barked. He cranked it up. In a few weeks they had to put the poor pup to sleep. It had 'become neurotic' and basically broke down mentally and neurologically. The stupidity of the people involved left me speechless. I literally was numb upon hearing that. That poor short life. 

I am still pretty suspicious of ecollars, I'm not gonna lie. I do not know how to train with them, so I do not use them. I think they are waaaaay overused, especially when there are other solutions to a training problem.


----------



## Kirstyn Kerbo (Apr 3, 2010)

So where did all involved with ecollars posting here learn how to use their collars effectively?
I know it is properly used to 'fine tune' a dog...but how did you all learn to use this properly and effectively?

I like the collars that buzz like cell phones. The idea of it being paired with a reward is very interesting.


----------



## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Kirstyn Kerbo said:


> They are for sure way overused on pets.


At what point does an Ecollar become _"overused on pets?"_ 



Kirstyn Kerbo said:


> One story comes to mind with me: I heard a story from someone whos brothers (now ex) friend or whatever put an ecollar on a 8/9 week old GSD puppy they had just bought. It was 'barking and whining too much', which was their reason. They got one of those ones that gave a shock when the dog barked. He cranked it up. In a few weeks they had to put the poor pup to sleep. It had 'become neurotic' and basically broke down mentally *and neurologically. *The stupidity of the people involved left me speechless. I literally was numb upon hearing that. That poor short life.


The anecdote you discussed is clearly a case of improper use. Why do people talk about tools used improperly as if it was _"proper use?"_ How did the dog _"[break] down ... neurologically?"_ Are you saying that there was some physical neurological damage? 



Kirstyn Kerbo said:


> I think they are waaaaay overused, especially when there are other solutions to a training problem.


What makes some _"other solution"_ better than using the Ecollar?


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Kerstyn Kerbo

Then find handlers of dogs intelligent enough to be able to use other methods! 
There will always be handlers that can control their dogs by being the "master".

How do you know "they" are overused on pets?

Jesus, can't you communicate effecitvely?


----------



## Chris Smith (Jul 29, 2010)

Bottom line on e-collars is they are a fantastic tool when used properly. Unfortunately Properly is a relative term when it comes to dogs. Many positive only or clicker trainers (not one in the same mind you) use punishment ALL the time and cant tell you why what they are doing is punishment. Negative doesn't mean bad when you are talking about training. and positive is not always good. i have seen lots of positive training and its brutal. Positive punishment that is . Fact is as evidenced by this thread is when you ask trainers or hobbyists what is the best way to do something you get a 4 page thread that is as passionate as a prom night. Finally do what works without abusing the animal (again a relative term) keep an open mind. The only absolute in training is your dog will sooner or later screw you on the trial field; lov'em up and get back to training for the next time.


----------



## Earl Dunn (Jul 21, 2010)

I agree with last post that ecollars are wonderful tools when used "properly". The ecollars help provide reliable control when dogs are off leash and around heavy distraction. That being said, they are also DEFINITELY abused and probably the most over-abused tool out there. First reason being, you just hit a button so there is no investment of strength. I.E: Whether the correction is set at 20 or 127 it requires the same investment by the hander, as oppose to a pinch or choke collar in order to make correction more motivating the handler must invest more strength. Secondly, the tool offers no direction or information for the dog to learn. I.E: If the dog is corrected for sit or come, the stimulation from the ecollar feels the same. As oppose to a pinch correction for sit, the collar helps teach the dog the desired behavior to cease the correction. For these two reasons I feel there is large opportunity for the collars to be abused. I use ecollars regularly, but I think it is very important that they have some type of governing over them before they are banned. There should be some type of permit needed, educational class, and professional instruction before a pet owner can be able to posses one.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Earl Dunn said:


> There should be some type of permit needed, educational class, and professional instruction before a pet owner can be able to posses one.


??? Serously???

who deteremines what a "pet" owner is, and if they need classes? 

I for one do not want anyone to regulate dog training methods period, and who is gonna pay for this permit, class, and professional instruction?


----------



## Earl Dunn (Jul 21, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> ??? Serously???
> 
> who deteremines what a "pet" owner is, and if they need classes?
> 
> I for one do not want anyone to regulate dog training methods period, and who is gonna pay for this permit, class, and professional instruction?


Yes, seriously. The ecollar is a professional tool. I would equate it to a taser for police. It requires discretion, and when used inappropriately can be destructive. The term pet owner might be a bit broad, but I would say that anyone who wants to use such a strong tool needs to learn everything about it from a professional first. That should be a good rule of thumb for any tool, but especially one that can be so easily abused. I consider my trade of dog training a profession. I don't try and replace my engine block because I am not qualified and not a professional mechanic. That being said, I can manage an oil change, but know my limitations. Just like dog owners, can mess around with treat training and so on, but when it comes to things which are more involved it should be left to professionals. In terms of payment, we all pay professionals to daily to do their trade. I.E: mechanics, carpenters, plumbers, etc....


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Earl Dunn said:


> Yes, seriously. The ecollar is a professional tool. I would equate it to a taser for police. It requires discretion, and when used inappropriately can be destructive. The term pet owner might be a bit broad, but I would say that anyone who wants to use such a strong tool needs to learn everything about it from a professional first. That should be a good rule of thumb for any tool, but especially one that can be so easily abused. I consider my trade of dog training a profession. I don't try and replace my engine block because I am not qualified and not a professional mechanic. That being said, I can manage an oil change, but know my limitations. Just like dog owners, can mess around with treat training and so on, but when it comes to things which are more involved it should be left to professionals. In terms of payment, we all pay professionals to daily to do their trade. I.E: mechanics, carpenters, plumbers, etc....


so are you saying that anyone who is training other peoples dogs professionally should get a permit or whatever. or anyone that wants to use one?

I am not a mechanic, I have rebuilt several 400+ HP motors by myself, and often repair friends cars for them. I also have rebuilt several motorcycles, and did 2 frame off rebuilds on cars...

I am not a carpenter but I did help my friend build 90% of his house...an official "licensed" carpenter was only used for a small amount of the framing.

I am not an electrician but I did wire my friends entire house with ridiculous overkill, because the electricians wanted to do things THEIR way, the easy way...not the dual 200 amp main panels and 3 sub panels my friend wanted, with full conduit, and 2 or 3 way switches for almost every light in the house.

Almost every outlet has its own breaker in most rooms. IT passed inspection. The inspector told us he was very impressed with the wiring job and said it was the best he has seen since inspecting wiring.

I have helped plumb several houses that have all passed inspection, and work great...

are you saying that people should not be allowed to do their own car repairs, carpentry, electrical work? etc...unless they go through professional courses?

An ecollar can be a powerful tool and can be misused, but so can a big fukking stick, or a thick leather leash..gonna regulate those too?

It's not rocket science, if people want help, they can pay a professional for help, I don't think people should be FORCED to get help they don't want or don't need.

You know YOUR limitations, you do not know what other people limitations are.

If people want to hire a professional trainer, they can. But I can't think of a reason I would demand that they hire one.

All that aside, who determines what a professional dog trainer is? And who determines if a professional dog trainer NEEDS to be consulted...


----------



## Earl Dunn (Jul 21, 2010)

I am saying that anyone that wants to use the tool should be educated and informed by a professional before being cut loose to work on their own. Thank you for providing your resume of repair work, but I think you are missing my point. You most likely received some type of instruction on how to do all those skills listed. I don't think you just yanked out the 400 hp motor and said, "ok let me give this a shot". You had some professional instruction or experience of some sort, no? If not, fine the person who let you work on the car assumes the risk and damage. The poor dog faces the consequences of the users learning curve when discussing the remote. In reference to the ther tools listed, aka big f-ing stick, yes those can be abused too. But not as easily and with such little investment. You need to want to beat the sh#t out of the dog with those devices, as oppose to accidently having the level too high. Also, probably not as easy to make you own remote as oppose to a stick or leather leash. At least not for us common folk, who aren't as mechanically inclined...


----------



## Chris Smith (Jul 29, 2010)

See what i mean PASSION. 
Earl Regulation is not the answer education is. This forum is good for discussion and trading ideas. No one idea is the best nor is one person going to be ultimately correct. There are a great many ways to use remotes and all of them work; some better than others. My preferences i keep to myself unless directly asked or paid for the information. I will, being the big mouth i am attempt to help those i feel need some educating. If you attempt to regulate something you end up with more problems and lawyers involved and that is NEVER a good thing (sorry to all who spent money on your JD) 

Remember earl many people have been assaulted and or killed with a hammer but there is no cry to regulate the sale of those . My point any tool can be misused or abused it just gets very emotional when we talk about animals. 

Good debate though


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I took basic auto shop and shop class in high school. Building a motor is not difficult, and neither are the other things. 

Buy a Chilton's manual for your car, and with the right tools, you can repair almost anything on it, if you know what needs to be done, if you want to. The books include step by step instructions. 

I never had any professional guidance for carpentry electrical motorcycle repair or plumbing, I can READ...I learned basic things from my dad, growing up..who was a pencil pusher by trade....

a gun is powerful tool as well, do you feel anyone that wants to buy a gun needs to go through professional courses to own one? even if their dad, or brother, or uncle, or friend is a responsible gun owner and/or hunter..and can teach them proper handling of a gun.


E collars come with instructions, and there are plenty of things on the web to instruct.

I realize some people are idiots. Are gonna misuse them. I just bought one from a lady that got one for her SOFT GSD and cranked it up on him unfairly, and wanted to get rid of it.. She did not use it properly. I bought the collar, I did tell her she should have gotten some instruction on how to use it properly, she agreed. Did I get all weepy for her dog, NO..he looked like he was fine to me when I played with him...

Pet people that do not intend to harm their dog, should realize very quickly that they are, and then they most likely will not use the collar, or will seek help.

That does not mean I think it should be regulated, it is not the people using them that is gonna get them banned, it is loony 100% positive types that don't agree with any use of ANY corrective devices that is gonna get them banned, and people like you calling for regulation. A dog that gets zapped too hard is not gonna call his congressman, people are.

Is is a real slippery slope regulating dog training. There was a SMALL group of trainers that tried to regulate dog training in my area, calling for certifications of trainers, and certifications of dogs. They tried to get me to join it, thing is only member or THEIR group are trainers on the list as "certified". and to get a dog certified it had to be "evaluated" by at least 3 certified trainers, and trained by a certified trainer...it was sold to me that dog training WILL be regulated soon, and I should jump in quickly to get ON the LIST, because early supporters would get favorable treatment and referrals for certifications....and they wanted 1000's of dallars to join the group...to help fund the lobbying...LOL

Point is this.
Government is stupid when it comes to dogs, the farther away they are from dogs the better. Who gets "certified" and HOW? Who is a professional? and WHY? It all will end badly and the slope will get deeper and deeper..all without 1 single dog complaining to the government about it..EVER

There is no standardization or certification for dog training, and I think government should keep as far away from it as possible...

Wanted to ask you too, How do I become a "CERTIFIED" By going to any dog school and passing the un-standardized classes, or getting certified by any of my freinds that train dogs professionally? 

I graduated college, I am an AKC Evaluator, and when I used to train dogs I was a member of the IAPC. Does that mean I am certified? A certification is a piece of arbitrary paper on your wall, to impress your clients and give them something to believe in..

I think if bleeding hearts have such a real concern for this, and feel they HAVE to do something...

they should offer courses, maybe even FREE courses, hold educational seminars, get the message out..write for local papers, magazines on proper useage, do a public cable TV show..whatever...without calling for regulations...

and maybe just maybe, I could agree with trying to make the manufacturers of e-collars provide a detailed instruction booklet or DVD with the collar, which most already provide...

Dog training should not be regulated. 
Take *YOU* for example. Are YOU qualified, on paper to pass muster for regualtions if some yahoo sets them?? and by what standards?

You are a college graduate, you own a Training business, and are an avid animal lover.
You are a member of IACP, an AKC evaluator, and a member of the BBB.

You are also a "certified" Trainer and Behaviorist. CERTIFIED BY WHO?
You are also a "certified" Foundation Dog Trainer. CERTIFIED BY WHO?
What is a certified foundation dog trainer, never heard of that one...

Answer if you want to...I am not knocking your education or experience...all good stuff...

What are your certifications and qualifications for teaching the use of E Collars? (on paper) Have you taken and passed professionally standardized Ecollar classes?

Would you be happy if the government told you that you had to get a new education to run your business, cause your current qualifications did not fit the regulations?


----------



## Chris Smith (Jul 29, 2010)

see PASSION. 
Joby the only correction i would make to your post would be 
Government is stupid about EVERYTHING.


----------



## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Kirstyn Kerbo said:


> They are for sure way overused on pets. One story comes to mind with me: I heard a story from someone whos brothers (now ex) friend or whatever put an ecollar on a 8/9 week old GSD puppy they had just bought. It was 'barking and whining too much', which was their reason. They got one of those ones that gave a shock when the dog barked. He cranked it up. In a few weeks they had to put the poor pup to sleep. It had 'become neurotic' and basically broke down mentally and neurologically. The stupidity of the people involved left me speechless. I literally was numb upon hearing that. That poor short life.
> 
> I am still pretty suspicious of ecollars, I'm not gonna lie. I do not know how to train with them, so I do not use them. I think they are waaaaay overused, especially when there are other solutions to a training problem.



You're talking about a bark collar not an ecollar . 

Kirstyn and Earl , I think you have to get more familar with ecollars . I train with pinch collars , choke collars and leather collars . They can ALL JUST AS EASILY be abused just like the ecollar . No more no less . 

There is no need for regulation but clearly , using this discussion as an example , there needs to be more education on them . Not only on how to properly use them but on the facts and myths about them too .


----------



## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Kirstyn Kerbo said:


> They are for sure way overused on pets.


At what point does an Ecollar become _"overused on pets?"_ 



Kirstyn Kerbo said:


> One story comes to mind with me: I heard a story from someone whos brothers (now ex) friend or whatever put an ecollar on a 8/9 week old GSD puppy they had just bought. It was 'barking and whining too much', which was their reason. They got one of those ones that gave a shock when the dog barked. He cranked it up. In a few weeks they had to put the poor pup to sleep. It had 'become neurotic' and basically broke down mentally *and neurologically. *The stupidity of the people involved left me speechless. I literally was numb upon hearing that. That poor short life.


This tool is a bark collar. We're talking about Ecollars. They're similar but not the same. But the anecdote you discussed is clearly a case of improper use. Why do people talk about tools used improperly as if it was _"proper use?"_ How did the dog _"[break] down ... neurologically?"_ Are you saying that there was some physical neurological damage? 



Kirstyn Kerbo said:


> I think they are waaaaay overused, especially when there are other solutions to a training problem.


What makes some _"other solution"_ better than using the Ecollar? 



Earl Dunn said:


> That being said, they are also DEFINITELY abused and probably the most over-abused tool out there.


Anything to support this beyond your opinion? I'll have to repeat that based on just numbers alone the pinch collar and choke chain are _"abused AND misused"_ FAR MORE OFTEN. But abuse has to do with an evil intent to cause pain without any reason beyond that end. It's a sick mind and I doubt that the Ecollar is used for that purpose very often. Not when they're so expensive and fists, boots and sticks are much handier and they're free. 



Earl Dunn said:


> First reason being, you just hit a button so there is no investment of strength.


Exactly. I think that abusers are more satisfied by the investment of strength. It's much more satisfying to one of them to beat a dog with a stick than it is to just move a finger. Once someone told me that there's a study done that support this position, but I've never bothered to look for it. 



Earl Dunn said:


> I.E: Whether the correction is set at 20 or 127 it requires the same investment by the hander, as oppose to a pinch or choke collar in order to make correction more motivating the handler must invest more strength.


Now you're talking about something completely different. Giving a dog a correction implies that one is trying to train it. Abuse does not have training as an end. Perhaps you meant some other definition with the term _"abuse?"_ 



Earl Dunn said:


> I think it is very important that they have some type of governing over them before they are banned. There should be some type of permit needed, educational class, and professional instruction before a pet owner can be able to posses one.


Based on past government attempts to control inanimate objects I think that this is one of the worst ideas ever. I'm of the opinion that less government is better. I don't want to live in a nanny state where politicians control my every movement and deed. 



Earl Dunn said:


> Yes, seriously. The ecollar is a professional tool. I would equate it to a taser for police.


About the only thing that they have in common is that they both use batteries to deliver an electrical current to the subject. 



Earl Dunn said:


> It requires discretion, and when used inappropriately can be destructive.


Name another tool used in dog training that does not require _"discretion"_ and that _"when inappropriately cannot be destructive."_ BTW I'll disagree with the latter. NO SCIENTIFIC STUDY EVER DONE has shown any physical or mental damage with the Ecollar. 



Earl Dunn said:


> The term pet owner might be a bit broad, but I would say that anyone who wants to use such a strong tool needs to learn everything about it from a professional first. That should be a good rule of thumb for any tool, but especially one that can be so easily abused.


I'll disagree that the Ecollar can be abused any more easily than any other tool. 



Earl Dunn said:


> I don't try and replace my engine block because I am not qualified and not a professional mechanic.


I’m no professional mechanic either. Yet I completely tore down and rebuilt half a dozen VW engines following directions in a book. 

I've built homes and barns yet I'm neither a carpenter, a plumber nor an electrician. 



Earl Dunn said:


> That being said, I can manage an oil change, but know my limitations. Just like dog owners, can mess around with treat training and so on, but when it comes to things which are more involved it should be left to professionals.


I don't think that that treat training is any easier than using an Ecollar. 



Earl Dunn said:


> In terms of payment, we all pay professionals to daily to do their trade. I.E: mechanics, carpenters, plumbers, etc....


A stroll through the aisles of a Home Depot will show you that MANY people are doing this sort of work all the time. Of course, some screw it up but MOST get it done to their satisfaction. 



Chris Smith said:


> Earl Regulation is not the answer education is.


YAY!


----------



## Earl Dunn (Jul 21, 2010)

Way too much to comment on line by line. I thought the discussion was about people abusing the power of ecollars. After re-reading the original post, it seems like the question was on if it is abuse to use one period. I think the best statement made about them was made by Thomas:

"A long time ago Gene England told me an e-collar can be used to teach or punish. If you use one at appropriate levels, it's a great tool. If all you use one for is as an "electronic big stick" to blast a dog into compliance or to punish him. You are a fool, as well as an asshole."


----------



## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Earl Dunn said:


> Way too much to comment on line by line.


Perhaps you'll find this easier ... 

Earl do you have anything to support your statement that the Ecollar is _"probably the most over abused tool out there?" _ I'll have to repeat that based on just numbers alone the pinch collar and choke chain are _"abused AND misused"_ FAR MORE OFTEN. But abuse has to do with an evil intent to cause pain without any reason beyond that end. It's a sick mind and I doubt that the Ecollar is used for that purpose very often. Not when they're so expensive and fists, boots and sticks are much handier and they're free. 

As to an _"an investment of strength."_ I think that abusers are more satisfied by the investment of strength. It's much more satisfying to one of them to beat a dog with a stick than it is to just move a finger. Once someone told me that there's a study done that support this position, but I've never bothered to look for it. Giving a dog a correction implies that one is trying to train it. Abuse does not have training as an end. Perhaps you meant some other definition with the term _"abuse?"_ 

Based on past government attempts to control inanimate objects I think suggesting that the government control Ecollars is one of the worst ideas ever. I'm of the opinion that less government is better. I don't want to live in a nanny state where politicians control my every movement and deed. The key is education not regulation!

Name another tool used in dog training that does not require _"discretion"_ and that _"when inappropriately cannot be destructive."_ BTW NO SCIENTIFIC STUDY EVER DONE has shown any physical or mental damage with the Ecollar. 

I don't think that that treat training is any easier than using an Ecollar.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Earl Dunn said:


> I think the best statement made about them was made by Thomas:
> 
> "A long time ago Gene England told me an e-collar can be used to teach or punish. If you use one at appropriate levels, it's a great tool. If all you use one for is as an "electronic big stick" to blast a dog into compliance or to punish him. You are a fool, as well as an asshole."


You are the one that called for permits and training.
I did not ask for line by line...I asked a few simple questions...for a healthy debate on your views, not gonna stand by them?

you downgrade to outright abuse and not training, which any certification, or courses is not gonna fix, if someone wants to abuse a dog they will, even if they are certified..

So you are done? and you quote Gene England, who in a LOT of peoples eyes, being a major table trainer pioneer, has abused 100's if not 1000's of dogs...on a table??? ( I am NOT one of them) I think many more working dog people would love to outlaw the tables, than regulate the E-collar...

I am not a huge Lou fan, just being honest.

But, Lou is right, 100,000's of people misuse chokers and pinches, and those can cause physical damage to a dog.

If you are chosing not to defend your views, can you please at least at least tell me:

WHAT IS A "Certified Foundation Dog Trainer" ???

(if anyone else knows can you fill me in, cause it's greek to me)

Sorry to the OP for the off topic, but conversations do change directions.
I KNOW this is the conflict free zone as well, that is why I have tried to structure this in the least confrontational manner as possible(holding my tongue), using logical statements and questions, which unfortunately almost always get an emotional person to stop the debate...


----------



## Kirstyn Kerbo (Apr 3, 2010)

Reply to Lou Castle:

An Ecollar, in my opinion, is overused when it is used to correct a dog for not doing something it doesn't even know how to do. I'm not a fan of people being lazy and using an Ecollar instead of just teaching a dog to do what they want in a more positive way. I don't mean to be all hippy dippy, but I am not the type that enjoys inflicting pain on my dogs. I enjoy working with them. 

Of course I was citing improper use. What bothers me the msot about that story is that those people thought it was correct use. How many others like them assume that as well? That is what is disturbing to me.
All I know on that story is what I posted. I remember hearing that they put the dog to sleep on a vets reccommendation for damage caused by the collar. 

If you don't know what other training solutions besuides Ecollars are, ask an actual trainer. Not me or anybody else here. Were all just floating opinions anyway :wink:


----------



## Kirstyn Kerbo (Apr 3, 2010)

Earl Dunn said:


> I agree with last post that ecollars are wonderful tools when used "properly". The ecollars help provide reliable control when dogs are off leash and around heavy distraction. That being said, they are also DEFINITELY abused and probably the most over-abused tool out there. First reason being, you just hit a button so there is no investment of strength. I.E: Whether the correction is set at 20 or 127 it requires the same investment by the hander, as oppose to a pinch or choke collar in order to make correction more motivating the handler must invest more strength. Secondly, the tool offers no direction or information for the dog to learn. I.E: If the dog is corrected for sit or come, the stimulation from the ecollar feels the same. As oppose to a pinch correction for sit, the collar helps teach the dog the desired behavior to cease the correction. For these two reasons I feel there is large opportunity for the collars to be abused. I use ecollars regularly, but I think it is very important that they have some type of governing over them before they are banned. There should be some type of permit needed, educational class, and professional instruction before a pet owner can be able to posses one.


I agree


----------



## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Kirstyn Kerbo said:


> Reply to Lou Castle:
> 
> An Ecollar, in my opinion, is overused when it is used to correct a dog for not doing something it doesn't even know how to do. I'm not a fan of people being lazy and using an Ecollar instead of just teaching a dog to do what they want in a more positive way. I don't mean to be all hippy dippy, but I am not the type that enjoys inflicting pain on my dogs. I enjoy working with them.
> 
> ...


Kirstyn , you were citing the improper use of a Bark Collar not an E-Collar .


----------



## Kirstyn Kerbo (Apr 3, 2010)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Kerstyn Kerbo (*ahem* Kirstyn)
> 
> Then find handlers of dogs intelligent enough to be able to use other methods!
> There will always be handlers that can control their dogs by being the "master".
> ...


Relax! Nobody can communicate effectively on the _internet_. Sometimes it takes a few posts to get a point across. Oh well. People having conversations need to see facial expressions and hear tone to really 'get' a conversation. That and the richness of information conveyed is very low over the web. Not to mention that the control over the receiver's attention and effectiveness for detail in the message is weak at best. Which apparently was the problem you had and it is of course frustrating...:-\" 
I was simply sharing a story that was my first impression of Ecollars when I was young. It was the first thing that came to mind about them while browsing the thread.
I worked at Petco, and it just sucked how people wanted to buy them for really dumb reasons. I say dumb reasons, because all it would have taken to fix some of those problems was a little effort and some pieces of hot dog or a toy or some other reward. I mean, these are pets I was referencing.
Another reason for my opinion of that they are overused? They are a professional tool. People should take the time to learn something about them before zapping away at the dog. Which is why I don't use one...
Not a tool I am crazy about, but I don't mind learning more anyway.


----------



## Kirstyn Kerbo (Apr 3, 2010)

Jim Nash said:


> Kirstyn , you were citing the improper use of a Bark Collar not an E-Collar .


This actually was an Ecollar. They were purposefully correcting the puppy for whining, etc. when _they_ wanted to correct it. Unless there are some bark collars that are remote controlled? I don't know, as I don't use or own either of those tools (I am, as you can tell, paranoid about improper use). 
I meant to share it as an example of abuse that freaked me out. I can't detail it much further, and to be honest I would rather discuss effective use of an Ecollar in training rather than pick apart an old and distant story.


----------



## Kirstyn Kerbo (Apr 3, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> I took basic auto shop and shop class in high school. Building a motor is not difficult, and neither are the other things.
> 
> Buy a Chilton's manual for your car, and with the right tools, you can repair almost anything on it, if you know what needs to be done, if you want to. The books include step by step instructions.
> 
> ...


Great post!


----------



## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Kirstyn Kerbo said:


> This actually was an Ecollar. They were purposefully correcting the puppy for whining, etc. when _they_ wanted to correct it. Unless there are some bark collars that are remote controlled? I don't know, as I don't use or own either of those tools (I am, as you can tell, paranoid about improper use).
> I meant to share it as an example of abuse that freaked me out. I can't detail it much further, and to be honest I would rather discuss effective use of an Ecollar in training rather than pick apart an old and distant story.


Kirstyn stated ; 

" They got one of those ones that gave a shock when the dog barked. "

You're describing a bark collar .


----------



## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

AT THE RISK OF SOUNDING LIKE AN OLD FOGEY:

This board is supposed to be made up of sport dog people and working dog people, not pet people. The average pet person doesn't get a lot of stuff that we do, and vice versa, but that's neither here nor there, because this isn't a pet board.


----------



## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Kirstyn Kerbo said:


> Reply to Lou Castle:
> 
> An Ecollar, in my opinion, is overused when it is used to correct a dog for not doing something it doesn't even know how to do.


I'd not call this _ "overuse."_ I'd call this misuse. The term "overuse" means that is used too frequently. 



Kirstyn Kerbo said:


> I'm not a fan of people being lazy and using an Ecollar instead of just teaching a dog to do what they want in a more positive way.


I often wonder why people say that those who use Ecollars are _"lazy."_ I think it's just another slur against Ecollars that has no real meaning. I have no idea what you mean by _"in a more positive way"_ except as this term is used in marketing. Please give an example so we might know what you mean by this term. 



Kirstyn Kerbo said:


> I don't mean to be all hippy dippy, but I am not the type that enjoys inflicting pain on my dogs. I enjoy working with them.


Someone else who thinks that an Ecollar must inflict pain in order for it to work. Might I suggest that you spend some time learning ways that an Ecollar can be used so as to give only slight discomfort. 



Kirstyn Kerbo said:


> Of course I was citing improper use.


Wondering why you called it _"OVERuse?"_ 



Kirstyn Kerbo said:


> All I know on that story is what I posted. I remember hearing that they put the dog to sleep on a vets reccommendation for damage caused by the collar.


It's impossible for any modern Ecollar to inflict any physical damage to a dog via the electrical current they put out. Sounds like an urban legend to me. 



Kirstyn Kerbo said:


> If you don't know what other training solutions besuides Ecollars are, ask an actual trainer.


You're answering a question that I didn't ask. I DID ASK _"What makes some other solution better than using an Ecollar?"_ YOU'RE the one who made the statement _"I think they are waaaaay overused, especially when there are other solutions to a training problem."_ So I'm asking YOU rather than an _"actual trainer."_


----------

