# Dobermanns & Beaucerons in protection sports



## Ataro Muse

I've only ever had very superficial encounters with Beaucerons (at shows and informal contexts), and I was hoping someone here could give me some insight on whether they are similar to Dobes in terms of training/behaviour when it comes to protection sports. 

I should add - I've been told by several people that I have the wrong idea of what a "typical" Dobe is/should be like, so please post a definition of what your idea of a typical Dobe is, before making the comparison. 

Thanks !


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## Joby Becker

Ataro Muse said:


> I've only ever had very superficial encounters with Beaucerons (at shows and informal contexts), and I was hoping someone here could give me some insight on whether they are similar to Dobes in terms of training/behaviour when it comes to protection sports.
> 
> I should add - I've been told by several people that I have the wrong idea of what a "typical" Dobe is/should be like, so please post a definition of what your idea of a typical Dobe is, before making the comparison.
> 
> Thanks !


what is your idea of a typical dobie?


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## Ataro Muse

Aloof, calm in non-threatening situations, high energy, medium to high drive, medium level sharpness, easily excitable, not very vocal, versatile, has a tendency to thrash when biting, loves to work, generally more responsive to positive training when it comes to obedience, slow maturing, perpetually hungry and looking for food, some lines prone to dog aggression, and they usually fall on either end of the spectrum with very shitty or very good nerves (haven't met any that were in-between)...

I hear they're supposed to be super velcro, following you around and watching you take a crap etc. and dying to please... my dog isn't, but supposedly that is not the norm.


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## Matt Vandart

Watching you take a crap! hahahahahaha!


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## Joby Becker

Matt Vandart said:


> Watching you take a crap! hahahahahaha!


the dog is not supposed to do that?


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## Ataro Muse

Matt Vandart said:


> Watching you take a crap! hahahahahaha!


That's pretty much what every Dobe owner tells me their dog does, and that they find this trait endearing.


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## Gillian Schuler

Dobermanns are and have been a no-go in sports, now unheard of in Army, Police, etc. (if they ever were?) for many years now.

I must admit it would not be my favourite dog but I would welcome the competition in sports.

I had a colleague who had a Dobermann and we were always competing against each other but, in protection, the Briard won. My colleague had a good Dobermann but that was the last I saw until 2 years ago when a Dobermann was at our club show and put up a good show. Will check on what dog it was.


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## Ataro Muse

Perhaps I wasn't clear in my first post: I'm not looking for Dobermann info, I'm looking for *Beauceron* info... and hoping someone on here who has experience with both will post the differences/similarities in training and behaviour specifically related to protection sports. 

As you may have noticed, I have a Dobermann myself... (and also know plenty of other Dobes, including shitty ones), so any time I want to feel bad about my breed of choice, all I have to do is go to a club show. ;-)


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## Wendy Schmitt

Dobermanns can do the work, to say a blanket statement of they are a no-go is ignorance and breed bias. 
Do your research, check the bloodlines unfortunately too many people try to work Dobermanns without a working background or cause the breeder said they could work but both patents are untitled. 
They are there but you have to work a little harder to find them.

Wendy Schmitt
Eiko v Landgraf IPO3, SCH3, ZTP 1A
Covae v Landgraf IPO3,SCH3, FH2
Lussi v d Krillenburg SCH1, FR1, MR1


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## Jason Demo

Matt Vandart said:


> Watching you take a crap! hahahahahaha!


Sounds like my GSD... He's a shadow... Heck, he even stares when I'm in the shower, stupid glass door!


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## Ataro Muse

No one can answer my question? Not even the folk in Europe?


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## Thomas Barriano

Jason Demo said:


> Sounds like my GSD... He's a shadow... Heck, he even stares when I'm in the shower, stupid glass door!


The staring is bad enough but the laughing is too much


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## Joby Becker

contact Debbie Skinner...she has Beaucerons doing lots of things.


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## Mark Carvour

I can tell you a little bit through my wife's dog Max. Now he is out of working lines, but this dog has nerve issues. I do know that out of any litter, working or not, you'll get the full range of pups. The good part of Max is tremendous prey drive, think Malinois or Border Collie. Dog is exceptionally smart and a quick learner. He jumps our 5 ft fence without touch anything. Likes people and other dogs, but that is just him. Other Beaucerons may differ from his outgoing personality. Larger build than a Doberman and a little bit less musculature than a Rottie. I wish we had got Max as a puppy rather than as a rescue, because I think if he had been brought along slow he could have been an IPO prospect. The previous statement is not meant to be a condemnation of working breeders. I fully understand that because of the economics breeders will work with a pup 2-3-4 months at most if the pup doesn't come out like a demon neuter it and sell as a pet.


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## Ataro Muse

Thanks Mark, finally someone who mentions Beaucerons ! Have any experience with Dobes, by any chance? 

And you were saying bigger build... are you referring to American show Dobes, European working line Dobes, or European show line Dobes? Because "bigger is better" has become the new law here it seems, with Dobermann males being on average about 50kg (110lbs), or heavier. From statistics on sites like working-dog.eu and from the dogs I've personally seen, I'd say the Beauceron looks to be about what the Dobe should weigh (if breeders actually followed the standard).


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## Claire Poissonniez

I work my four year old female beauceron in IPO. She is a fun dog to work with, but definitely quirky when compared with the shepherds at my club. 

No nerve issues at all and doesn't mind the stick. She has nice character. She does like to thrash and kill the sleeve rather than carry, but she has always struck with a full grip and they say she really punches, perhaps the hardest in the club. Now she carries but it took a lot of time to get there.

Excellent prey drive on this dog. I do not know if all beaucerons are that way.

The trick with a beauceron is getting them to maintain their initial good grip. She is really coming along with good finesse from her helper. I didn't start her until age 2, so in the future I would start working the grip earlier with the breed. But I have heard that they are slow to mature mentally, so just drive and grip building and prey work when they are young, and extensive socialization.


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## Claire Poissonniez

Oh, and overall, they have a sturdier build than a Dobie, and more coat. My girl is small, at the bottom of the standard at 24 inches, 65 pounds. The males can be quite a bit larger.


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## Gillian Schuler

Wendy Schmitt said:


> Dobermanns can do the work, to say a blanket statement of they are a no-go is ignorance and breed bias.
> Do your research, check the bloodlines unfortunately too many people try to work Dobermanns without a working background or cause the breeder said they could work but both patents are untitled.
> They are there but you have to work a little harder to find them.
> 
> Wendy Schmitt
> Eiko v Landgraf IPO3, SCH3, ZTP 1A
> Covae v Landgraf IPO3,SCH3, FH2
> Lussi v d Krillenburg SCH1, FR1, MR1


Quote


*Dobermanns can do the work, to say a blanket statement of they are a no-go is ignorance and breed bias. *

I think *you* are ignorant of the fact that they do not appear anywhere in sports, here locally or, internationally, and I can hardly think they are numerous in police or army units.

I would love to see them as other breeds, Airedales, Rottweilers, Briards, Beaucerons, etc. competing with Malinois, Dutch Schepherds and German Shepherds locally and internationally but for many years this has not been the case.

I saw a good Dobermann at our local club who had entered the International Dobermann Trials but this was one Dobermann.

So, after accusing me of ignorance, maybe you would like to bring me up to date with the Dobermanns who can do the work, names, kennels, etc.

I am not biased, just realistic.


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## Christopher Smith

Gillian said:


> So, after accusing me of ignorance, maybe you would like to bring me up to date with the Dobermanns who can do the work, names, kennels, etc.


You can start with the dogs she list under her name.


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## Lisa Radcliffe

Christopher Smith said:


> You can start with the dogs she list under her name.


+1


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## Ken Seminatore

Actually the Dobermann was originally a guard dog. They can have a good disposition and really a very imposing dog. However, the breed has become more as a pet dog. I really don't know if they participate in protection sports, maybe just a few. In LE, I would say, they are not used as far as I know.


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## Ataro Muse

Claire Poissonniez said:


> I work my four year old female beauceron in IPO. She is a fun dog to work with, but definitely quirky when compared with the shepherds at my club.
> 
> No nerve issues at all and doesn't mind the stick. She has nice character. She does like to thrash and kill the sleeve rather than carry, but she has always struck with a full grip and they say she really punches, perhaps the hardest in the club. Now she carries but it took a lot of time to get there.
> 
> Excellent prey drive on this dog. I do not know if all beaucerons are that way.
> 
> The trick with a beauceron is getting them to maintain their initial good grip. She is really coming along with good finesse from her helper. I didn't start her until age 2, so in the future I would start working the grip earlier with the breed. But I have heard that they are slow to mature mentally, so just drive and grip building and prey work when they are young, and extensive socialization.


Thanks for this! How do you mean quirky? (I'm not a shepherd person... )

Also, I guess the working line Beauces are smaller, assuming your girl isn't the exception? I'm starting to doubt Ashra's midget status :-D.


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## Ataro Muse

Gillian Schuler said:


> Quote
> 
> 
> *Dobermanns can do the work, to say a blanket statement of they are a no-go is ignorance and breed bias. *
> 
> I think *you* are ignorant of the fact that they do not appear anywhere in sports, here locally or, internationally, and I can hardly think they are numerous in police or army units.
> 
> I would love to see them as other breeds, Airedales, Rottweilers, Briards, Beaucerons, etc. competing with Malinois, Dutch Schepherds and German Shepherds locally and internationally but for many years this has not been the case.
> 
> I saw a good Dobermann at our local club who had entered the International Dobermann Trials but this was one Dobermann.
> 
> So, after accusing me of ignorance, maybe you would like to bring me up to date with the Dobermanns who can do the work, names, kennels, etc.
> 
> I am not biased, just realistic.


They seem to be doing okay:

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]*VDH-DM 2012*[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]1 Edgar Scherkl & Cayman vom Adlerauge 289[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]2 Robert Parak & Finni von der Brunnenstadt 288 [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]3 Michael Kötters & Rigo vom Haus Mecki 288 [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]4 Karl Heinz & Knies Dusty vom Hornbachtal 287 [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]5 Knut Fuchs & Orcan vom Further Moor 285 [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]6 Thomas Wesselmann & Madonna from Mike's Place 285 [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]7 Sabrina Höfer & Quiche vom Löwenwappen 285[/FONT]
*[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]8 Roman Schneider & Oscar vom Aurachgrund 284[/FONT]*
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]9 Isabella Nirk & Crawall vom Randegger Schloß 281[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]10 Jürgen Zank & Moses vom Fluchtweg 280 
[/FONT]
placed 10th & 12th:
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]http://www.working-dog.eu/meisterschaft-details-mit-bildern/2147/CACIT-Czechia-2012[/FONT]

placed 4th:
http://www.working-dog.eu/meisterschaft-details/1895/CACIT-CUP-2010

placed 9th & 15th:
http://www.working-dog.eu/meisterschaft-details/1894/CACIT-CUP-2011

*Some other dogs: *
Forrest Gump di Casa Shirak - 1st place in cat. 1 MR World cup 2008 
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/101629/Beast-vom-Elbenwald
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/131662/Vasko-del-Pais-Baviera


But in any case, Dobermanns aren't popular, generally speaking, so how do you expect to see them everywhere? On top of that, many if not most Dobe owners are tools who wouldn't want to see their coddled babies ever set foot on a field.


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## Steve Burger

oops corrected in next post.


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## Steve Burger

Ataro Muse said:


> But in any case, Dobermanns aren't popular, generally speaking, so how do you expect to see them everywhere? On top of that, many if not most Dobe owners are tools who wouldn't want to see their coddled babies ever set foot on a field.


That's funny, and too true!

I think we have to concede that there is some truth in what Gillan says. Though there are a few Doberman's competing and holding there own, at least to a degree in National and international level events against GSD's and Mali's, the numbers are indeed pretty small. 

I am looking forward to competing in a month at the GSSCC Western Regionals, under Gunther Diegel. Hopefully I can find the time and get tracking squared away. I know it will likely be about 25 GSD's, 1 or 2 Mali's, and my Dobermann.


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## Ataro Muse

I don't think that the Dobermann is a bad working dog, but:

1) The working community is tiny and I don't think it is going to start growing any time soon
2) The show community in some countries seem to be deliberately selecting against proper temperament
3) People don't like the breed for one reason or another and aren't choosing them in the first place
4) Dobermann breeders are fascinated with inbreeding which has led to all sorts of defects including poor health and overall higher susceptibility to diseases like Parvo (who wants a dog that has a high chance of keeling over at a young age?)
5) Assholes discourage new people from doing protection sports with any breed besides a Malinois (for the record, I was interviewed by a TV channel at a seminar and one of the questions I was asked was why the hell I would choose to work a Dobe)
6) It seems Dobe owners outside of Europe tend to be anti-bitework



///On an unrelated note, I sent a message to Debbie a while ago but no reply - any other Beauce experts on here?


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## Claire Poissonniez

I guess by quirky I just mean grip style. It is naturally less calm and more hectic than the more common breeds in the sport. This might be misinterpreted as nerves in someone unfamiliar with the breed. My friends who do bitework with beaucerons say the same. They get a good grip but may thrash so much they readjust, or drop the toy after it becomes dead prey because they want to see it move again. Calm, patient and persistent helperwork is a must. A friend of mine says this might be because the grip was never judged in their previous sport, ring sport.

My girl is from mixed show and work lines. Well, it is pretty much all work if you go back a few generations but her most recent in the states have not been worked.


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## Claire Poissonniez

In obedience and tracking they are very fun to work! An especially fine nose, I have heard, and my early observations say the same.


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## David Ruby

Christopher Smith said:


> You can start with the dogs she list under her name.


+2. I've never had the pleasure to to see any, however I'm told Wendy has some pretty nice working Dobermann Pinschers.

-Cheers


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## Mario Fernandez

Christopher Smith said:


> You can start with the dogs she list under her name.


+2


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## Steve Burger

Ataro Muse said:


> I don't think that the Dobermann is a bad working dog, but:
> 
> 1) The working community is tiny and I don't think it is going to start growing any time soon
> 2) The show community in some countries seem to be deliberately selecting against proper temperament
> 3) People don't like the breed for one reason or another and aren't choosing them in the first place
> 4) Dobermann breeders are fascinated with inbreeding which has led to all sorts of defects including poor health and overall higher susceptibility to diseases like Parvo (who wants a dog that has a high chance of keeling over at a young age?)
> 5) Assholes discourage new people from doing protection sports with any breed besides a Malinois (for the record, I was interviewed by a TV channel at a seminar and one of the questions I was asked was why the hell I would choose to work a Dobe)
> 6) It seems Dobe owners outside of Europe tend to be anti-bitework
> 
> 
> 
> ///On an unrelated note, I sent a message to Debbie a while ago but no reply - any other Beauce experts on here?


 The dogs are tightly line-bred because the gene pool, especially for working Dobermans is so small. This is mainly due to the show lines being much more prevalent and the ban against cropping and docking in most of Western Europe. When your main battle is finding a dog than can work you don't want to water down the lines with dogs who lack drive and nerve. 

Parvo is the last thing one worries about in the Doberman world. I worrry about Dilated Cardiomyopathy, cancer, liver problems, VonWillebrand's disease, and Wobblers. DCM and cancer is in every line. 

I never hear anyone say "why don't you get a Malinois". I get told "why don't you get a Shepard"?


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## Ataro Muse

Steve Burger said:


> The dogs are tightly line-bred because the gene pool, especially for working Dobermans is so small. This is mainly due to the show lines being much more prevalent and the ban against cropping and docking in most of Western Europe. When your main battle is finding a dog than can work you don't want to water down the lines with dogs who lack drive and nerve.
> 
> Parvo is the last thing one worries about in the Doberman world. I worrry about Dilated Cardiomyopathy, cancer, liver problems, VonWillebrand's disease, and Wobblers. DCM and cancer is in every line.
> 
> I never hear anyone say "why don't you get a Malinois". I get told "why don't you get a Shepard"?


The average COI of show lines is 11% in 5 generations... working lines may have a small gene pool to draw from, but I wouldn't say that is true of show lines. If the breed is to become healthier, breeders are going to have to draw from both pools, whether they like it or not. But that probably won't happen.

The point I was getting at with parvo is that like susceptibility to such diseases, MOST of the common illnesses such as DCM, cancer etc. have an immune or autoimmune component, i.e. there is no mystery gene causing these things, in a study it was noted that with DCM, the variety is 478 transcripts proteins expressed and 167 genes specifically involved... the dogs' systems are just faulty from the get go. 

They have: myoglobin deficiency (they have the concentration level found in dogs paced to heart failure), cardiac performance deficiency (healthy Dobes have been shown to have left ventricular dysfunction), detoxifying deficiency (autoimmune... in sick AND healthy Dobes) & immunodeficiency (more prone to all the cancers, diseases etc.).


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## Paul R. Konschak

Steve Burger said:


> I never hear anyone say "why don't you get a Malinois". I get told "why don't you get a Shepard"?


This is most likely because of the club you train with. Many Doberman owners have purchased Malinois and been successful.


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## Ataro Muse

Anyway, back to the topic at hand with thrashing etc. Claire, would you say my description of a Dobermann on the first page of this thread bears some similarity to your experience of what Beauces are like?


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## Claire Poissonniez

Ataro Muse said:


> Aloof, calm in non-threatening situations, high energy, medium to high drive, medium level sharpness, easily excitable, not very vocal, versatile, has a tendency to thrash when biting, loves to work, generally more responsive to positive training when it comes to obedience, slow maturing, perpetually hungry and looking for food, some lines prone to dog aggression, and they usually fall on either end of the spectrum with very shitty or very good nerves (haven't met any that were in-between)...
> 
> I hear they're supposed to be super velcro, following you around and watching you take a crap etc. and dying to please... my dog isn't, but supposedly that is not the norm.



I think in some ways, I see similarities. My particular Beauceron is not aloof but friendly and outgoing, nor is she ever calm (she is always quite excitable), and can be quite vocal. No dog aggression (but will not tolerate being challenged). Otherwise, the rest sounds pretty accurate. And she falls on the good nerves end of the spectrum.


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## Claire Poissonniez

Positive training works pretty well most of the time. She is quite biddable. However, there is a stubborn streak that comes out from time to time and her attitude must be checked once in a while. They do very well in obedience and then decide to give the double dew salute....


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## rick smith

Ataro
i'm VERY weak at genetics but very interested in health issues and you seem pretty savvy on this issue

based on what you wrote, could one assume that if you have a breed in small numbers that is tightly line bred based primarily on the working drives, the health problems will not be eliminated ?

as in nice working dobes with the same health issues popping up ?
or is that a too "simplistic" analogy ?


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## Steve Burger

rick smith said:


> Ataro
> i'm VERY weak at genetics but very interested in health issues and you seem pretty savvy on this issue
> 
> based on what you wrote, could one assume that if you have a breed in small numbers that is tightly line bred based primarily on the working drives, the health problems will not be eliminated ?
> 
> as in nice working dobes with the same health issues popping up ?
> or is that a too "simplistic" analogy ?


 The studies in Munich regarding DCM in Dobermann's shows the rate of DCM to be about 58% that will develop it in their lifetime. These rates are pretty consistant world wide, and in all lines.


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## Steve Burger

Paul R. Konschak said:


> This is most likely because of the club you train with. Many Doberman owners have purchased Malinois and been successful.


 I'm aware of that.


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## Ataro Muse

rick smith said:


> Ataro
> i'm VERY weak at genetics but very interested in health issues and you seem pretty savvy on this issue
> 
> based on what you wrote, could one assume that if you have a breed in small numbers that is tightly line bred based primarily on the working drives, the health problems will not be eliminated ?
> 
> as in nice working dobes with the same health issues popping up ?
> or is that a too "simplistic" analogy ?


There are lines that have done better in terms of health than others, but they all did have DCM at one time or another. Contrary to what some breeders might say, not all bloodlines are equal in that respect... there's DCM and then there's *DCM* where you can literally, by the pedigree, calculate that the dog has an estimated life expectancy of about 6 years. In fact, on average in European lines, the life expectancy is about 7 years. 
Here's an interesting study, for those who have not read it (it's simple enough to understand for those without a background in genetics: 
http://www.doberman.gr/arthra/DCM_Testing.html

If you look at the average COI of other breeds, it's not as high as in Dobermanns. I don't buy that the gene pool is that small... how small it is depends heavily on which dogs breeders are willing to use. For example, they could do intercontinental matings, use AI etc. but the DV (German Dobermann club) forbids AI, and almost no one is willing to use "outside lines". Genetically speaking, European show and working lines are not that far from each other, once you go back about 30 years... yet breeders have willingly separated into these show vs. work factions and have restricted themselves even more in terms of diversity. 

The bottom line is, if they are not willing to go out and use show lines and vice versa, intercontinental matings, AI etc. then they will have to outcross using a different breed to bring some genetic diversity back. But I doubt this will ever happen.


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## Ataro Muse

Claire Poissonniez said:


> I think in some ways, I see similarities. My particular Beauceron is not aloof but friendly and outgoing, nor is she ever calm (she is always quite excitable), and can be quite vocal. No dog aggression (but will not tolerate being challenged). Otherwise, the rest sounds pretty accurate. And she falls on the good nerves end of the spectrum.


Is your Beauceron typical, would you say? It sounds like they quite similar to typical Dobes (not my description, which I later found it exists but isn't the most common type)


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## Claire Poissonniez

I cannot say if she is typical. In the breed, each is an individual and there is great variation. I hope to work another and then I might better answer this question. The aloof aspect I have heard when the breed is mentioned. I have heard some mention that their Beauceron showed more defense than prey drive. All the Beaucerons I know like to bark. They almost always love their food. That is about all I can say.


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## Debbie Skinner

This is the "exception" for the breed ...it's rare in Beaucerons. Kain is however, the 1/2 brother to Avatar O.V. owned by Tim Welch. Avartar is FRIII, MRIII. Both of these dogs are with very dedicated and talented trainers.

"Kain" Daemon O.V. (Phantom O.V. x Bijou) owned by Jen Hoffman (Vancouver Canada) -got their IPO3 title this weekend under SV judge Rhino Flugge. They took high IPO3 and high in trial!








Pedigree Page: http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/438591/Daemon-des-Ombres-Valeureux

Les Ombres Valeureux 
OVDogs.us


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## David Ruby

Debbie Skinner said:


> This is the "exception" for the breed ...it's rare in Beaucerons. Kain is however, the 1/2 brother to Avatar O.V. owned by Tim Welch. Avartar is FRIII, MRIII. Both of these dogs are with very dedicated and talented trainers.
> 
> "Kain" Daemon O.V. (Phantom O.V. x Bijou) owned by Jen Hoffman (Vancouver Canada) -got their IPO3 title this weekend under SV judge Rhino Flugge. They took high IPO3 and high in trial!
> 
> Pedigree Page: http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/438591/Daemon-des-Ombres-Valeureux
> 
> Les Ombres Valeureux
> OVDogs.us


Congrats!

While logistically I know those are exceptions, has there been any renewed interest in Beaucerons by working dog folk? It seems like the Beauceron and Dobermann for that matter might be a more natural fit for some than the Malinois, Dutch Shepherd, or German Shepherd. However, I can see the logistics of sheer percentages at work leading people to basically just go get a Malinois.

Still, pretty cool! I know I'm being Captain Obvious, however I think it would be nice if this was more the norm or the standard than some pretty rare exception to the rule.

-Cheers


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## Debbie Skinner

I hope there is renewed interest...didn't realize there was. Without trainers and breeders working together it's doomed. The banning of the crops/docks was a big hit to these breeds that were already struggling too.



David Ruby said:


> Congrats!
> 
> While logistically I know those are exceptions, has there been any renewed interest in Beaucerons by working dog folk? It seems like the Beauceron and Dobermann for that matter might be a more natural fit for some than the Malinois, Dutch Shepherd, or German Shepherd. However, I can see the logistics of sheer percentages at work leading people to basically just go get a Malinois.
> 
> Still, pretty cool! I know I'm being Captain Obvious, however I think it would be nice if this was more the norm or the standard than some pretty rare exception to the rule.
> 
> -Cheers


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## Debbie Skinner

French Breeders using Avatar O.V. for those interested in my bloodlines as I'm not breeding Beauces at this time:

http://www.lesbaronsnoirs.eu/

http://www.beauceron-dgv.com/


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## Claire Poissonniez

David Ruby said:


> While logistically I know those are exceptions, has there been any renewed interest in Beaucerons by working dog folk?


I haven't noticed renewed interest, and I am not sure it would be a good thing anyway. It is always nice when a Beauceron gets a chance to work and ends up with an owner willing to try it, but popularity is always a mixed bag as we know.

There are more IPO beaucerons in Europe as the sport is overall more popular there. Not a lot, but more than here in North America.


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## David Ruby

Claire Poissonniez said:


> I haven't noticed renewed interest, and I am not sure it would be a good thing anyway.


Well, if we're waxing philosophy, it may depend on how much interest a/o by whom. It would be nice if they had enough to make them a viable choice (so there were a few breeders producing "Avatars" and "Kains" more regularly) yet not enough to get too much interest especially outside the working circles. There's that fine line between being big enough to have a large gene pool to work with (which probably helps weed out genetic problems) and too large (which leads to what has happened to the show breeds).

I just think it would be kind of neat to see enough interest in, say, Beaucerons so we see more "Avatar" stories and not have them just be the occasional freaks of the breed(s). Not sure if that will happen or not.

-Cheers


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## christina chapman

I've meant to post a few times but got sidetracked...so I'm just tossing it all in one post, LoL.

I have an (almost) 1 year old working-line (FR) Beauceron female (for MR) and an 11 yo male (pet). 

The opinion of those who have trained/decoyed the two breeds might be useful here.... I haven't been around many working Dobes, and I'm obviously partial to Beaucerons. 
Other than both breeds being black and tan (commonly), I don't see much similarity....the 2 breeds come from different backgrounds, created for different purposes. 

Size: As Claire said, they are a larger/different build (and have more coat) than a Dobe. For me, I may take a second look at some natural Rottweilers in videos, wondering if it is a Beauceron...but that hasn't happened with a Dobermann. If that makes sense?
My girl is 100% working line, and she is at the very top of the height standard. Such exceptions are very common.

For my own dogs:
Both of mine are very vocal, but only my girl is a barker.
They are VERY high energy. And physical/tactile...body slams and the like.
Both will eat just about anything...doesn't really have to be food. :-|
They are slow to mentally mature...but they can have a serious edge pretty early on.
A LOT of socialization is necessary for a well-adjusted adult...and keeping their confidence up is important. 
Both mine are pretty friendly, within their limits.
They are much happier having a job/task...otherwise, they'll create one.
I love the breed, but I find they drive many people crazy...they can be a bit intense + persistent + handler-focused. 

My male is dog aggressive. Not sure about the girl yet---but similar to what Claire said, I think she'll be the type to not back down from a challenge. 

My girl also likes to thrash and "kill" the sleeve...and she has that chewy bite.
For mine, she likes to bite but not for the sake of biting---she wants to interact/(fun) fight/win. Free wins are boring...and making her work for the sleeve naturally helps with her grip. 
The right decoy/training makes a world of difference, per my experience so far. (But that is the same for many dogs, LoL.)

Positive training, for sure. They can be a bit sensitive to some things, and they don't generally do well with unfair handling. (I've heard of several who won't readily switch handlers, too.)
They are thinkers, and they get bored with repetition or not being mentally challenged...and then the fun begins, LoL.

Most are pretty velcro, and they do like to make their handler happy. But on the flip side, they also like to push your buttons...they get a kick out of it.
IMO, they just like a fun fight and a bit of conflict/game...both in bitework and in day-to-day behavior.


----------



## Gillian Schuler

I liked your post until I came to "don't too good with unfair handling". What breed does???

Sensitive?? They are thinkers?

I think they should leave the thinking to the handler :-D


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Me too. When I started in the late 1980s with the breed there were definitely more titled in FR Beaucerons in France. RCI/SchH was never that popular in France..I guess now it's called IPO by everyone.. We've trialed and owned 2 FRIIIs, 1 FRII and 3 Brevet (2 females and the infamous "Herosse LN")..one trialing at FRI but w/o passing score. Produced 1 FRIII/MRIII dog, 2 SchH/IPO III dogs, and several lower Brevet-FRI dogs titled by others and a handful of police k9s. Sold and gave many pups to excellent trainers in France and the USA and Canada over the years. I cannot blame the good trainers that have tried and not succeeded with Beauces...nor do I blame the few of us breeders trying to breed working Beaucerons..it's the small gene pool and the small amount of working breeders. Not enough breeders selecting seriously and critically for working qualities in the last years has taken it's toll. It's necessary for breeders to set a working standard and select toward the standard. I see overall a lack of character and nerve (problems with environment and loud noises, pressure), working drives and resilence "heart" in most Beauces today. Many times, the dogs with a lot of character and enough drive are basically "assholes"..handler aggression and difficult to train. These are things I've seen. It is absolutely sure that if I could produce Avatars the trainers would come..but, unless someone can send me a 3D Printer or Cloner..I think we are out of luck 



David Ruby said:


> .....I just think it would be kind of neat to see enough interest in, say, Beaucerons so we see more "Avatar" stories and not have them just be the occasional freaks of the breed(s). Not sure if that will happen or not.
> 
> -Cheers


----------



## Debbie Skinner

On a Positive Note :-D

Here's a young bitch to get excited about 

Guess des Barons Noirs Della Foppa, 
Ring, Mordant, Beauceron 
(Sire: Avatar des Ombres Valereux, FRIII, MRIII)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UedJROHAJCU


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## rick smith

really nice dog
vid ran kinda "soupy" on my mac and the "noise" music drowned out the dog, but i would gladly suffer thru all that to watch her work


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## Debbie Skinner

rick smith said:


> really nice dog
> vid ran kinda "soupy" on my mac and the "noise" music drowned out the dog, but i would gladly suffer thru all that to watch her work


I have a mac too and today the video wasn't clear..yes, loud music.. I watched it a couple months back for the first time and it ran normal. Not sure if we watched it on my mac or hubby's pc.. I'll have to try watching it again later and see if it was just a youtube problem..or what.


----------



## christina chapman

Gillian Schuler said:


> I liked your post until I came to "don't too good with unfair handling". What breed does???
> 
> Sensitive?? They are thinkers?
> 
> I think they should leave the thinking to the handler :-D


I was trying out my Captain Obvious impression, LoL.


----------



## Ataro Muse

christina chapman said:


> The opinion of those who have trained/decoyed the two breeds might be useful here.... I haven't been around many working Dobes, and I'm obviously partial to Beaucerons.
> Other than both breeds being black and tan (commonly), I don't see much similarity....the 2 breeds come from different backgrounds, created for different purposes.
> 
> Size: As Claire said, they are a larger/different build (and have more coat) than a Dobe. For me, I may take a second look at some natural Rottweilers in videos, wondering if it is a Beauceron...but that hasn't happened with a Dobermann. If that makes sense?
> My girl is 100% working line, and she is at the very top of the height standard. Such exceptions are very common.
> 
> For my own dogs:
> Both of mine are very vocal, but only my girl is a barker.
> They are VERY high energy. And physical/tactile...body slams and the like.
> Both will eat just about anything...doesn't really have to be food. :-|
> They are slow to mentally mature...but they can have a serious edge pretty early on.
> A LOT of socialization is necessary for a well-adjusted adult...and keeping their confidence up is important.
> Both mine are pretty friendly, within their limits.
> They are much happier having a job/task...otherwise, they'll create one.
> I love the breed, but I find they drive many people crazy...they can be a bit intense + persistent + handler-focused.
> 
> My male is dog aggressive. Not sure about the girl yet---but similar to what Claire said, I think she'll be the type to not back down from a challenge.
> 
> My girl also likes to thrash and "kill" the sleeve...and she has that chewy bite.
> For mine, she likes to bite but not for the sake of biting---she wants to interact/(fun) fight/win. Free wins are boring...and making her work for the sleeve naturally helps with her grip.
> The right decoy/training makes a world of difference, per my experience so far. (But that is the same for many dogs, LoL.)
> 
> Positive training, for sure. They can be a bit sensitive to some things, and they don't generally do well with unfair handling. (I've heard of several who won't readily switch handlers, too.)
> They are thinkers, and they get bored with repetition or not being mentally challenged...and then the fun begins, LoL.
> 
> Most are pretty velcro, and they do like to make their handler happy. But on the flip side, they also like to push your buttons...they get a kick out of it.
> IMO, they just like a fun fight and a bit of conflict/game...both in bitework and in day-to-day behavior.


To be honest, you sound like you're describing a working line Dobe to me. I suppose though, unless you live in Europe and see natural Dobes with tails all the time, you'll never be able to mistake one for a Beauceron :lol:. 

Your girl sounds exactly like Ashra (my Dobe) right down to the body slams, except that she's not vocal or particularly friendly. She's is a bit dog aggressive too, and not velcro (but that's something unusual, since Dobes generally are a velcro breed). 


***Also, thanks Debbie for the links and input!


----------



## Claire Poissonniez

I agree with what Christina said, especially the body slams. I forgot about that part. 

Here are some links to various working dogs from a good database for the breed. It's not comprehensive but it's a start. I've been watching some nice dogs lately, such as D'Jerry from Canada. And there is a litter of Beaucerons in Europe that has 4 dogs in it that have IPO titles. It's a joy to see these.

Some Beaucerons in IPO

http://aboutbeaucerons.com/cgi-bin/...=search&gens=4&pattern=IPO3&submit=Search+Now

http://aboutbeaucerons.com/cgi-bin/...search&gens=4&pattern=IPO+2&submit=Search+Now

http://aboutbeaucerons.com/cgi-bin/...search&gens=4&pattern=IPO+1&submit=Search+Now

Some beaucerons in ring:

http://aboutbeaucerons.com/cgi-bin/...search&gens=4&pattern=RING3&submit=Search+Now

http://aboutbeaucerons.com/cgi-bin/...search&gens=4&pattern=RING2&submit=Search+Now

http://aboutbeaucerons.com/cgi-bin/...search&gens=4&pattern=RING1&submit=Search+Now


----------



## Ataro Muse

Thanks for the video and database links, I shall get to checking it out :grin:!


----------



## Debbie Skinner

D'Jerry litter (I believe his first in the States) due in about 1 month. More details when pups are on the ground as per the breeder's request. 

He's a FRIII and from a good working breeder in France that had our Phantom (Avatar's sire) as a senior...again small world of Beaucerons.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ePSQR4hCcg


----------



## Debbie Skinner

I don't follow all the changes in SchH much..but, a friend the other day was saying how it's now rewarded for a dog to pull back and if a dog brings the fight and pushes into the bite in SchH now he/she is penalized? Also, the BH took out the gun-shots awhile ago because too many dogs were failing. Shame imo.


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## Claire Poissonniez

I'm not aware of that penalty, as long as the grip is full. There are still gun shots on the I.


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Claire Poissonniez said:


> I'm not aware of that penalty, as long as the grip is full. There are still gun shots on the I.



BH = no gun shots.

My friend who attended a meeting (I think Regional, but could of been the national mtg) said penalty. Reason we were discussing it was that some of the older trialing dogs of other friends pushed in, but now they will be penalized unless they pull back. These are dogs that have in the past competed nationally. I can ask again for clarification, but she was quite detailed about it and very disappointed.


----------



## Debbie Skinner

D'Jerry pedigree Page on European database: http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/523526/DJerry-du-Gex-dEmplume


----------



## Claire Poissonniez

Debbie Skinner said:


> BH = no gun shots.
> .


I know, I've done the B. My point is that schutzhund dogs are still exposed to gunfire in the next phase, so what does it matter whether it is sooner or later? Just my opinion.

I've never seen a dog penalized for the pushing in the trials I've seen. The judge has commented about wanting to see a calmer grip but no points were deducted. Maybe it has changed. Quite possible.


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Dog being used in France in the working circles is Comanche des Scorpions Intrepides. FR III.

http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/966174/Comanche-des-Scorpions-Intrepides.

Bloodlines of Goum and also Iqua (Indy's brother) from the famous Ce x Feline combo. These are similar to what I did in the breeding to produce Avatar.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ni2m3pI9Rs

FRII
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gys3m8G6zeY

5mos old daughter of Comanche named G'Spot DGV. Gotta laugh at the name! :-Dhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RGq6UBKCSw


----------



## Debbie Skinner

I believe it's a change for this year..that was my understanding..for 2013. I was told this a month ago maybe. 



Claire Poissonniez said:


> I know, I've done the B. My point is that schutzhund dogs are still exposed to gunfire in the next phase, so what does it matter whether it is sooner or later? Just my opinion.
> 
> I've never seen a dog penalized for the pushing in the trials I've seen. The judge has commented about wanting to see a calmer grip but no points were deducted. Maybe it has changed. Quite possible.


----------



## Ataro Muse

Claire Poissonniez said:


> I haven't noticed renewed interest, and I am not sure it would be a good thing anyway. It is always nice when a Beauceron gets a chance to work and ends up with an owner willing to try it, but popularity is always a mixed bag as we know.


I'm not sure how it is with Beaucerons in terms of popularity (whether it's rising or falling), but there seem to be more people interested in working their Beauces than in working their Dobes. And that is pretty pathetic, considering how many more Dobes there are than Beauces. I got into an argument with someone the other day who believes that if you're not too careful, your Dobe is going to lose/break their teeth while fooling around like this old guy here is doing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuG1B_VHcyM

That kind of coddling just isn't doing the breed any good and I wish more people would get involved even just at a casual level, in some kind of protection sport. People on Dobe forums praise dogs with only IPO1 as though they were the best thing since sliced bread, and that's just sad. Almost as sad as so many dogs failing a simple WAE.


----------



## Debbie Skinner

I remember a very exceptional dobie training at Primo Orlandini's club (at his house) years back...Gamin FRIII that got invited to the Championat. We have come back again on "G" names and now on I for this year..so that shows you how long ago. I wish I had video'd the dog. Super Dobie!

Another exceptional dobie that I had the pleasure to know was "Kazz" owned by Vadim which I saw as a young dog and adult. Super dobie here in SoCal. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbMIzo2gOBI


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## Debbie Skinner

Kaz ped page:http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/205654/Arkan-Kazimir-von-Rubenhof


----------



## Mike Lamoreaux

Ataro Muse said:


> I don't think that the Dobermann is a bad working dog, but:
> 
> 1) The working community is tiny and I don't think it is going to start growing any time soon
> 2) The show community in some countries seem to be deliberately selecting against proper temperament
> 3) People don't like the breed for one reason or another and aren't choosing them in the first place
> 4) Dobermann breeders are fascinated with inbreeding which has led to all sorts of defects including poor health and overall higher susceptibility to diseases like Parvo (who wants a dog that has a high chance of keeling over at a young age?)
> 5) Assholes discourage new people from doing protection sports with any breed besides a Malinois (for the record, I was interviewed by a TV channel at a seminar and one of the questions I was asked was why the hell I would choose to work a Dobe)
> 6) It seems Dobe owners outside of Europe tend to be anti-bitework
> 
> 
> 
> ///On an unrelated note, I sent a message to Debbie a while ago but no reply - any other Beauce experts on here?


1.Most people do not choose the doberman because of the health problems in the breed.
2.The show community does have some problems with the dobermans but not as bad at some other breeds.
3. Same at number 1
4. My breeder has very very little inbreeding. Most of the ones I see in the states are the same way.
5. Some clubs do discourage people because in the states because a lot of people try it with show lines that do not have the temperament.
6.IPO is still small in the states and ring is even smaller. Most people out side of the sport do not understand it. 

I just wonder where you get your info thinking that dobermans weights in at 110 bls. I never seen a working or show doberman that big. You may want to go look at some standers for the breed. In the states I see a lot more Dobermans then Beaucerons in protection sports. I know most people seem to get Dobermans for house dogs. With the short hair and when people see them they thing they are dangerous. It makes them feel safer.


----------



## Erik Berg

I don´t know so much about beaucerons more than it seems even fewer of them breed for work compared to dobes, which can´t be good I suppose. I´ve heard from breeders of working beacuerons many are a bit reserved against people and has a natural defencedrive, but could lack some in prey and fightingdrive(depending on the lines), so for bitesport you have to really do your research.

The only breeder I know here in my country that have a focus on work have some dogs doing IPO, a few also in security and one passed the selectiontest for the police but are not in active duty.
Some of their dogs, the second was the one that could also be tried for the police,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQtFrv5cP3g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eItwtFibvZE

Dobes you see now and then at least in IPO or a few in service, two was competing in the championship for IPO dogs in norway 2012,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIcIVJGvax8

This one also competed but this is his bitework from 2011,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vi5X-g9IOy8

The last one also an example of a dog that is more a mix of "show/allrounder" and work, as you said the genepool are small and there seems not be any dramatic differences between some of the dobes with only workinglines compared to some of the better dogs wih showlines,
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/80948/Supreme-Guardians-Black-Eros


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Debbie Skinner said:


> Another exceptional dobie that I had the pleasure to know was "Kazz" owned by Vadim which I saw as a young dog and adult. Super dobie here in SoCal. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbMIzo2gOBI


Flannchadh is a Kaz son. He's getting more serious as he gets older. Maybe someday he'll be like his daddy?


----------



## Claire Poissonniez

Erik Berg said:


> The only breeder I know here in my country that have a focus on work have some dogs doing IPO, a few also in security and one passed the selectiontest for the police but are not in active duty.
> Some of their dogs, the second was the one that could also be tried for the police,
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQtFrv5cP3g
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eItwtFibvZE


I love that breeder! She has great dogs!! My Beauceron female and I are traveling to meet her dog Zpencer, the one in the second link, this summer.  Dewclaws crossed.


----------



## Debbie Skinner

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eItwtFibvZE ?


----------



## Christopher Jones

Debbie Skinner said:


> Me too. When I started in the late 1980s with the breed there were definitely more titled in FR Beaucerons in France. RCI/SchH was never that popular in France..I guess now it's called IPO by everyone.. We've trialed and owned 2 FRIIIs, 1 FRII and 3 Brevet (2 females and the infamous "Herosse LN")..one trialing at FRI but w/o passing score. Produced 1 FRIII/MRIII dog, 2 SchH/IPO III dogs, and several lower Brevet-FRI dogs titled by others and a handful of police k9s. Sold and gave many pups to excellent trainers in France and the USA and Canada over the years. I cannot blame the good trainers that have tried and not succeeded with Beauces...nor do I blame the few of us breeders trying to breed working Beaucerons..it's the small gene pool and the small amount of working breeders. Not enough breeders selecting seriously and critically for working qualities in the last years has taken it's toll. It's necessary for breeders to set a working standard and select toward the standard. I see overall a lack of character and nerve (problems with environment and loud noises, pressure), working drives and resilence "heart" in most Beauces today. Many times, the dogs with a lot of character and enough drive are basically "assholes"..handler aggression and difficult to train. These are things I've seen. It is absolutely sure that if I could produce Avatars the trainers would come..but, unless someone can send me a 3D Printer or Cloner..I think we are out of luck


Hi Debbie, I understand you breed from the best French working lines and I was wondering how a typical litter of Beaus would turn out. How many in a litter would have the nerve and poor working traits, how many are good enough to do the job and how often do high level dogs like Avatar come along?


----------



## Christopher Jones

Debbie Skinner said:


> I remember a very exceptional dobie training at Primo Orlandini's club (at his house) years back...Gamin FRIII that got invited to the Championat. We have come back again on "G" names and now on I for this year..so that shows you how long ago. I wish I had video'd the dog. Super Dobie!
> 
> Another exceptional dobie that I had the pleasure to know was "Kazz" owned by Vadim which I saw as a young dog and adult. Super dobie here in SoCal. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbMIzo2gOBI


Yeah that was Gamon de Churge (sp?). Apparently he was the best dobe to have done Ring ever in France. His bloodlines went back to Holtzbergerhof bloodlines. Small dog I understand and damaged his neck from hitting so hard. Well thats what they said. I spoke to some people in France about him and they rated the dog. Not as good as the best Malis but he surprised people for been a Dobie.


----------



## Ataro Muse

Mike Lamoreaux said:


> 1.Most people do not choose the doberman because of the health problems in the breed.
> 2.The show community does have some problems with the dobermans but not as bad at some other breeds.
> 3. Same at number 1
> 4. My breeder has very very little inbreeding. Most of the ones I see in the states are the same way.
> 5. Some clubs do discourage people because in the states because a lot of people try it with show lines that do not have the temperament.
> 6.IPO is still small in the states and ring is even smaller. Most people out side of the sport do not understand it.
> 
> I just wonder where you get your info thinking that dobermans weights in at 110 bls. I never seen a working or show doberman that big. You may want to go look at some standers for the breed. In the states I see a lot more Dobermans then Beaucerons in protection sports. I know most people seem to get Dobermans for house dogs. With the short hair and when people see them they thing they are dangerous. It makes them feel safer.


I'm not in the US, I was referring to the situation in Europe (because I'm not American and I'm living in Europe)... no idea how it is in your country with the protection sport situation there. But to answer your question, there are PLENTY of 110lb Dobes here - it's the norm for male show line dogs, one Sieger was even 140lbs - Boris iz Doma Domeni. The difficult part is finding dogs smaller than 100lbs, although of course working lines mostly fall within the FCI standard (70-100lbs). 

Wanna see a huge Dobe? Fast forward to minute 14:20 http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=mwSLAWnjQrE

I'd say more than half of them in that clip are over 100lbs.


----------



## Matt Vandart

Christopher Jones said:


> Yeah that was Gamon de Churge (sp?). Apparently he was the best dobe to have done Ring ever in France. His bloodlines went back to Holtzbergerhof bloodlines. Small dog I understand and damaged his neck from hitting so hard. Well thats what they said. I spoke to some people in France about him and they rated the dog. Not as good as the best Malis but he surprised people for been a Dobie.


I would say that dog is correct size myself


----------



## Ataro Muse

MR3 Dobe, Ascomannis ******: 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmiY1lJqRJI


----------



## Erik Berg

Claire Poissonniez said:


> I love that breeder! She has great dogs!! My Beauceron female and I are traveling to meet her dog Zpencer, the one in the second link, this summer.  Dewclaws crossed.


Their Z-litter is probably the best beacueron litter in this country anyway, many dogs titled in IPO or other sports/service. Then even the best litter in this breed may not be quite so good as the best GSDs or malinois litters. The lack of evaluations of whole litters on health/character in france is also a problem I heard, if you want to get a good picture of breedingmaterial. The few beacuerons doing work may not be always the best breedingdogs either I suppose.

But the males in the Z-litter looks quite good,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cwfb5ViF3Nc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lmr3MBD0uMY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52dVqdxaIGk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWobdbqzpk8&feature=youtu.be

Don´t know if the french dogs their father goes back to is considered pure workinglines, but maybe just as the doberman it´s more important what the dog produces,
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/104144/Grand-Lutin-Zpencer

You can see zpencers selectiontest at the police if you haven´t seen it already, does a quite good test compared to other breeds too, download to your desktop for better quality in oher format maybe,
http://www.grandlutin.com/Ltestzpencer.htm


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Christopher Jones said:


> Hi Debbie, I understand you breed from the best French working lines and I was wondering how a typical litter of Beaus would turn out. How many in a litter would have the nerve and poor working traits, how many are good enough to do the job and how often do high level dogs like Avatar come along?


One like Avatar in a litter would be incrediable. That's why it's great that Guess (Avatar daughter) is out there and doing well. If there were even one in a litter like him then we would see more Avatars around in the world. Look at the different working videos of Beaucerons around the world and you cannot find dogs of this quality often.

The best working litter, I have seen in France were the combo Ce x Feline that produced Iqua "Jaguar" FRIII Sel, Indy FRIII. Also, the Ce x Dora was repeated many times (Gs...) and produced about the same..1-2 FRIIIs in a litter. We are on "I" again in 2013 so that gives you a time frame. 

Some of my personal ones for work were 

Flam LN x Eyes
Gluck CGF (Ce x Dora) x Fidele LN, 
Champion LN x Eyes, 
Isabeau (Gluck x FLN) x Goum, 
Indy (Ce x Feline ) x Integra (Champion x Eyes)
Phantom (Indy x Integra) x Rista (Goum x Isabeau) = Avatar

If it wasn't so tragic for the Beauceron, I would not get a request per week from Europe for either Phantom or Avatar semen.

Right now it's sort of like trying to paddle upstream with a broken paddle. Serious breeders are needed for the project..I'd say about 10 working together, but I'm always saying that I guess...


----------



## Debbie Skinner

My friend gave me better clarification on the pulling back during the SchH bite after asking the training director. 

She said that all the judges get together at (judges college)? and discuss what the interpretation of the rule(s) are and how they are to judge it to be consistent. 

So basically, they agreed that the prevention of the escape bite picture should be the dog pulling back.



Claire Poissonniez said:


> I'm not aware of that penalty, as long as the grip is full. There are still gun shots on the I.


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Small world in Dobies too I guess. Always loved that dog. Hope he is his father's son. :-D



Thomas Barriano said:


> Flannchadh is a Kaz son. He's getting more serious as he gets older. Maybe someday he'll be like his daddy?


----------



## Claire Poissonniez

Erik Berg said:


> Their Z-litter is probably the best beacueron litter in this country anyway, many dogs titled in IPO or other sports/service. Then even the best litter in this breed may not be quite so good as the best GSDs or malinois litters. The lack of evaluations of whole litters on health/character in france is also a problem I heard, if you want to get a good picture of breedingmaterial. The few beacuerons doing work may not be always the best breedingdogs either I suppose.
> 
> But the males in the Z-litter looks quite good,
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cwfb5ViF3Nc
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lmr3MBD0uMY
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52dVqdxaIGk
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWobdbqzpk8&feature=youtu.be
> 
> Don´t know if the french dogs their father goes back to is considered pure workinglines, but maybe just as the doberman it´s more important what the dog produces,
> http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/104144/Grand-Lutin-Zpencer
> 
> You can see zpencers selectiontest at the police if you haven´t seen it already, does a quite good test compared to other breeds too, download to your desktop for better quality in oher format maybe,
> http://www.grandlutin.com/Ltestzpencer.htm


Hi Erik,

I absolutely agree about the Z litter! You cannot find such a successful litter in the breed like that very often. That is why I chose Zpencer for my girl and why I am making the long flight from California to Sweden for it. I also like that these males, because of their location, have not been overused in the breed like some other good working males. I worry about genetic diversity in the breed just as Dobie owners must worry.


----------



## Debbie Skinner

That must be him. That year..long time back..maybe 2000-03 range both Gamin and a Bouvier got invitations to the Championnat. 

Both had mishaps and were not able to compete..I believe the Bov torsioned and maybe it was that Gamin's neck was injured.. 

I remember the object being trained at Orlandini's field with the dog chained to a jerry can and Primo being so very good with the sling shot in correcting him from quite a distance away. 

It's a pity I never converted those big vhs tapes to dvd as I'm sure they have deteriorated over the years being in storage boxes. A ring trainer in California bred a bitch to Gamin, but I don't remember if the breeding took or not. I think the female was named Inja, or Hadja.. again long time ago. Owner was Janis Howard in Eldorado and they used to have STARS ring club.



Christopher Jones said:


> Yeah that was Gamon de Churge (sp?). Apparently he was the best dobe to have done Ring ever in France. His bloodlines went back to Holtzbergerhof bloodlines. Small dog I understand and damaged his neck from hitting so hard. Well thats what they said. I spoke to some people in France about him and they rated the dog. Not as good as the best Malis but he surprised people for been a Dobie.


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## Claire Poissonniez

Debbie Skinner said:


> My friend gave me better clarification on the pulling back during the SchH bite after asking the training director.
> 
> She said that all the judges get together at (judges college)? and discuss what the interpretation of the rule(s) are and how they are to judge it to be consistent.
> 
> So basically, they agreed that the prevention of the escape bite picture should be the dog pulling back.


Ah, OK. Thank you for the clarification.


----------



## Christopher Smith

Debbie Skinner said:


> I don't follow all the changes in SchH much..but, a friend the other day was saying how it's now rewarded for a dog to pull back and if a dog brings the fight and pushes into the bite in SchH now he/she is penalized? Also, the BH took out the gun-shots awhile ago because too many dogs were failing. Shame imo.


Dogs are never penalized for fighting the helper. 

For a dog to receive the highest rating in the escape, the dog must actually try to prevent the helper from escaping. This is not a new rule. 

The BH is not a IPO or working dog test. It's simple test, taken by all breeds, to test basic temperament and training. Not all breeds need to be tested for a non reaction to gunshots.


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## Debbie Pluss

All I know is that a fellow club member had some point deduction because the dog was not pulling back on the escape bite. He was told this by the judge. At training they were specifically re-training the dog to do this. This dog has competed at a World and National level. My understanding is that that is the picture they prefer to see, just like at the National meeting a couple of years ago there was a huge discussion (I was there) about what the dog is/is not supposed to look like heeling. The dog wasn't supposed to look like it was prancing, etc.. Huge discussion from the membership.


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## Debbie Skinner

sorry for getting off topic with the ScH stuff #-o

I think with FB and Forums and the internet communications in general this is the time more than any other time in history where it is easier to breed to better dogs worldwide. Especially important for those working with rare breeds and trying to resurrect working qualities and breed improvement. We have to look far and wide so to speak. 

It is great to hear about folks researching and "going the distance" to breed, find a working prospect, import breeding stock. =D>


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## Ataro Muse

With Beaucerons, do breeders generally stick to working lines as Dobermann breeders do?

With some good working dogs occasionally popping up from show lines (Dobermanns), I don't know why more don't try to increase the gene pool this way. The same goes for show people, but I know they're really nit picky about even the most ridiculous things. I know some Dobermann breeders have successfully done this, throwing in a show line dog every now and again (von Bayern/del Pais Baviera, Aurachgrund etc.), but it's not common.


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## rick smith

Ataro...probably because too many working breeders see "show line" as a red flag meaning a "genetic infusion of weaker working drives"

what i think i hear you saying is if a show line would increase health it might be worth considering ... "genetic diversity" wise

btw, the link on DCM genetics was interesting ,,, but still technical for me to wrap around
...but seems to support my assumption that unless health gets a higher priority, breeds with weak health will stay weak and die sooner regardless of their working performance levels if line breeding focuses only on drives

i just can't see the worth in raising a great dog that will die before it should ... almost like "genetic" tunnel vision ... in another way, it seems almost selfish ](*,)

all in all i just don't get it, but there MUST be a way to breed longer living dobermans that can still do the work without DCM and all the other problems ending their careers and their lives

could be wrong here, but i always thot Beauceron dna was an ingredient of the dobe ... if the beaucerons have better health why not start over and bring a bit of that blood back in ??
... maybe i know ... the "Beau" types would never allow that ?? //lol//


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## Debbie Skinner

maybe this link will work (my FB Album Beauceron History) talking of origin of the Dobie. 

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.2931816152407.78805.1771111224&type=3&uploaded=2

last 2 photos (jpgs of 2 pages) entered in album


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## Debbie Skinner

forgot about the attach feature.. So here are the 2 pages.


page 12 on Dobie History from the 1999 Book by Rod Humphries and Joanne Walker - THE DOBERMAN PINSCHER Brains and Beauty. Possible still available online at places like http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBul...cerons-protection-sports-26244/www.Amazon.com Worth the read for Dobie and Beauce enthusiasts.

Photo of Beaucerons - my 2 dogs: Fidele de la Loutre Noire (female laying down) and Gluck de la Cite des Grands Feux (male sitting).
page 13 on Dobie History from the 1999 Book by Rod Humphries and Joanne Walker - THE DOBERMAN PINSCHER Brains and Beauty. Possible still available online at places like http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBul...cerons-protection-sports-26244/www.Amazon.com Worth the read for Dobie and Beauce enthusiasts.


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## rick smith

Debbie ... the 2 links just brought me back to the forum home page
but i did find the book by that name
pub in '99
what i would like to know is if there is an active working line breeding program that has a priority for eliminating the all too common health problems that is killing this breed too soon, or is it a matter of breeding based on performance in hopes that the dog may not come down with any of the crippling diseases cripple/kill many dobes ... 
2. any working line breeders bragging that they are producing great drives AND getting DCM/wobbler, etc free dobes ??

i have read MANY posts here about the problems with show line weakness as well as the links to great working dobes ... then the health issues get discussed later

i do not question there there are still great working dobes to be found, but i feel if they can't eliminate the health issues to START with, and get the life expectancy up to 12-14 years on an average, it is counterproductive and maybe unethical to continue to breed them.

if i was a breeder that had started solving this, i would sure as heck advertise it and emphasize it at least as much as the drives in my line. and yes, i realize registries contain no longevity data 

even if it would take 20 years that's fine ... i just haven't seen that effort and thought the working types might have some up to date info rather than focus on the great dobes with working titles

i guess it's obvious i'm a health freak when it comes to the doberman breed


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## Debbie Skinner

I went and added the 2 pages as attachements and checked and they worked for me. I don't know what dobie breeders do though. I don't really know a lot about dobie bloodlines.



rick smith said:


> Debbie ... the 2 links just brought me back to the forum home page
> but i did find the book by that name
> pub in '99
> what i would like to know is if there is an active working line breeding program that has a priority for eliminating the all too common health problems that is killing this breed too soon, or is it a matter of breeding based on performance in hopes that the dog may not come down with any of the crippling diseases cripple/kill many dobes ...
> 2. any working line breeders bragging that they are producing great drives AND getting DCM/wobbler, etc free dobes ??
> 
> i have read MANY posts here about the problems with show line weakness as well as the links to great working dobes ... then the health issues get discussed later
> 
> i do not question there there are still great working dobes to be found, but i feel if they can't eliminate the health issues to START with, and get the life expectancy up to 12-14 years on an average, it is counterproductive and maybe unethical to continue to breed them.
> 
> if i was a breeder that had started solving this, i would sure as heck advertise it and emphasize it at least as much as the drives in my line. and yes, i realize registries contain no longevity data
> 
> even if it would take 20 years that's fine ... i just haven't seen that effort and thought the working types might have some up to date info rather than focus on the great dobes with working titles
> 
> i guess it's obvious i'm a health freak when it comes to the doberman breed


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## Ataro Muse

Debbie Skinner said:


> I went and added the 2 pages as attachements and checked and they worked for me. I don't know what dobie breeders do though. I don't really know a lot about dobie bloodlines.


Thanks for attaching those - do working breeders ever throw show line dogs in the mix, if a show line dog proves to be a good worker as a couple of Dobe breeders do?


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## Ataro Muse

rick smith said:


> what i would like to know is if there is an active working line breeding program that has a priority for eliminating the all too common health problems that is killing this breed too soon, or is it a matter of breeding based on performance in hopes that the dog may not come down with any of the crippling diseases cripple/kill many dobes ...
> 2. any working line breeders bragging that they are producing great drives AND getting DCM/wobbler, etc free dobes ??
> 
> i have read MANY posts here about the problems with show line weakness as well as the links to great working dobes ... then the health issues get discussed later
> 
> i do not question there there are still great working dobes to be found, but i feel if they can't eliminate the health issues to START with, and get the life expectancy up to 12-14 years on an average, it is counterproductive and maybe unethical to continue to breed them.
> 
> if i was a breeder that had started solving this, i would sure as heck advertise it and emphasize it at least as much as the drives in my line. and yes, i realize registries contain no longevity data
> 
> even if it would take 20 years that's fine ... i just haven't seen that effort and thought the working types might have some up to date info rather than focus on the great dobes with working titles
> 
> i guess it's obvious i'm a health freak when it comes to the doberman breed


If Dobe breeders hesitate to mix working and show lines, how enthusiastic do you think they are about introducing a different breed :lol:? 

The answer to your question though, is that there are breeders out there health testing, but most of the time that is where it stops and they don't exactly actively select for longevity. There are some breeders who focus more on that, and they certainly have a better track record than breeders who don't. A lot seem to have the mentality though, that there's DCM in every line and so it's a crap shoot anyhow, and nothing you can do besides health testing will make much of a difference. 

I don't believe wobblers is as common as DCM, and supposedly from studies it is more common in N. America than it is in Europe... or at least for now.

The registries don't record longevity, no, but there are plenty of databases that do. And if you look at those databases, you will see that the longevity was a lot better about 20-30 years ago when there wasn't even as much health testing as now and you have to ask yourself why. Then you see the prevalence of popular sire use and inbreeding on DCM affected dogs and the answer becomes clear... one of the main obstacles here is that many stud owners and breeders hesitate to publish their dog's date and cause of death (let alone illnesses she/he suffered). And so you have some of the most popular sires and dams sprinkled throughout your dog's pedigree and you still have no idea what kind of lifespan to expect. You can estimate by the last date of mating for sires sometimes, but some even go so far as to conceal this and continue to allow matings with frozen semen, long after the dog's death. 

What you're describing though with the longevity and mixing lines is basically my most recent project but come back and ask me in 20 years how it went :lol:. 

I don't believe one person can make much of a difference (unless that one person was a millionaire): breeders need to work together actively, and I really don't see that happening on a large scale. There's so much hostility between working breeders, show breeders, breeders from country X and country Y etc. etc. They can't even unite temporarily to kick the clown out from the magical tower of omnipotence that is the DV, who knows what kind of a chance they have to fix the damage already done.


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Ataro Muse said:


> Thanks for attaching those - do working breeders ever throw show line dogs in the mix, if a show line dog proves to be a good worker as a couple of Dobe breeders do?


Jean Kerfriden (Cite des Grands Feux) years ago raised quite a few Beaucerons and a couple other breeds. Had a big kennel and threw a lot of $$ at it. He had a working line and a show line of Beaucerons that started with a similar base but selection was different but always caring about the temperament. 

I have used his dogs going Vauban (show) as well as his Ce line. 

One Example, I imported and used Oscar du Sentier des Savannes, FRII who was not 100% working but a ver strong dog in the bite work, hard character and great ball drive. Here is his pedigree: http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/177612/Oscar-du-Sentier-des-Savannes









His son "Leo" Uscar O.V. BOB Westminster. Solid character, but not for the work. Later sold Oscar to Karla Davis (large show breeder that has been breeding Beauces a good 10+ years more than me). She had good results for the show using him as well. I don't know any results for working protection sport, police k9 or such from Oscar. But, the show dogs he produced were stable and good dogs. Leo was an assitance dog and now lives his retired life with Harisson Forbes. 










I have said it many times what I believe the answer is..out-crossing to a different breed because of the inbreeding coefficient is such that this needs to be done to fix the health and mentality of the breed. However, I am in the minority so I doubt this will come to pass. We continue to try to find good dogs with diverse enough bloodlines that are good bloodlines (health and mentality) to try to improve. 

It's true w/o a lot of people working toward this goal it's not possible. It's not sure imo even with a lot of people working toward this that we have enough genetic material to work with..


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Vauban Pedigree: http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/63694/Vauban










Ce CGF Pedigree:http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/63729/Ce-de-la-Cite-des-Grands-Feux

Exceptional working dog that I owned and used:
Champion de la Loutre Noire, FRIII Sel, MRIII, Recomm 
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/80246/Champion-de-la-Loutre-Noire

Also, owned and used his 1/2 brother, Flam LN, FRII, Recomm (sired #3 or #4 Beauce Harold LN for the Beauty National d'Elevage), and Flam's 1/2 brother Havoc LN.


For me at this time, I see in Avatar O.V. pedigree some of the best working dogs from France from very good litters. 
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/119967/Avatar-des-Ombres-Valeureux


But, there are other lines to out-cross too not in the pedigree...such as.. Jaitook Carson, FRIII Sel.



Foxye, FRIII decendents.
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/34036/Foxy-de-Chipye

Ru D'Oly ..descendence of Praxi, Ulkan..


Yes, I'm going back in time with some of these dogs. But, it's important to know the base. Trying to help those that are interested. Most of these I have met and seen work and seen sons, grandsons..etc..


----------



## Christopher Jones

Debbie Skinner said:


> That must be him. That year..long time back..maybe 2000-03 range both Gamin and a Bouvier got invitations to the Championnat.
> 
> Both had mishaps and were not able to compete..I believe the Bov torsioned and maybe it was that Gamin's neck was injured..
> 
> I remember the object being trained at Orlandini's field with the dog chained to a jerry can and Primo being so very good with the sling shot in correcting him from quite a distance away.
> 
> It's a pity I never converted those big vhs tapes to dvd as I'm sure they have deteriorated over the years being in storage boxes. A ring trainer in California bred a bitch to Gamin, but I don't remember if the breeding took or not. I think the female was named Inja, or Hadja.. again long time ago. Owner was Janis Howard in Eldorado and they used to have STARS ring club.


 http://www.dobermannpedigrees.nl/modules/pedigree/pedigree.php?pedid=213155

The best I can find of Gamins pedigree.


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## Nia Cottrell

Debbie,

I was at that trial. Did not get to see the OB, but I did see Kain in protection. Raino can appear to be very "strict," especially with "alternate breeds." Kain did the breed proud. Very nice job. Not easy for a seldon-seen breed to come in and take HIT with a field full of sable gsds.


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## Erik Berg

Debbie, would this male be considered a showline or more the workingtype?
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/174187/Sethi-de-la-Roche-Montaigne

Some dogs have ringtitles in his pedigree but not all, two of his sons,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TSQDUwgJm0&feature=colike

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxVQEJCFj6w&feature=autoplay&list=UUFa-PxXVe0U-l_79tL01NHg&playnext=1

Funny enough I saw a discussion about working beacuerons a few years ago on a swedish forum. Some frenchman that lived here now with his beacueron cited an article from some french workingdog expert that was written 1983. Basically he said about the beacueron it hasn´t been so succesfull the last years but it seems now some breeders are working to get it back on the workingscene, hopefully they will be back in a few years if all goes well. Considering this was written 30 years ago it´s ironic it could more or less have been written today.

At least a few dobe and beacueron breeders seems very serious at listing both good and bad on their websites when it comes to health, how long the dog lives, cause of death and so on. Why people should keep this hidden in rare workingbreeds is beoynd me if they are serious about the future of the breed.


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## Ataro Muse

I don't know why it seems that people in certain breeds are more willing to do something "radical" to preserve the breed whereas others are not. Case in point: Akitas, they almost died out after WW2, and yet people actively worked towards restoring their numbers, which involved outcrossing. On the other hand, you've got the Dalmatian people, which seem to be of the same mentality that Dobermann and Beauceron breeders mostly have: 
http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/14_1/features/Dalmatians-Low-Uric-Acid_20162-1.html

@Erik - 
I don't know about Beauceron breeders, but Dobermann breeders who list cause of death and longevity of their dogs are few and far in between. They tend to only list the year the dog was born and the year it died, without a cause. The sadder part is that even those who list cause of death tend not to bother with it if the dog reaches 9 years of age. Then you have a few breeders whose dogs seem to have "genetic back luck" getting gun shot wounds, deadly snake bites, and "tragic accidents" consistently throughout their lines. 

As for why, it's because a lot more people care more about money and their reputations than the breed. It certainly doesn't help new breeders or foreign breeders in making decisions when the date of birth/death field is regularly blank on all the databases. I've personally contacted quite a few breeders to try to fill in the gaps of this information, but most don't answer or just get suspicious and send me a rude reply.


----------



## Steve Burger

Here is a video clip, out of Germany, about 45 minutes long talking about DCM in Dobermanns.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mL4wuv26068&feature=player_embedded


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## Ataro Muse

When I first saw that doco in German, it really pissed me off the way they were talking about the disease as if it were something new. DCM has been known for years and people just kept denying it, now there are breeders acting all surprised! Furthermore, they presented nothing of use to breeders or potential owners in terms of avoiding certain pairings or a concentration of known dogs that died of DCM in the pedigrees, and so, it's pretty much just preaching the same old sermon to the choir. The breeders who do care about the situation have been screening and testing anyway, and the breeders who don't just make up new excuses. 

And in conclusion: even now after the release of that video, they still can't seem to get the 20,000 signatures needed to send the heart screening petition to the FCI & IDC. They're up to 1800 signatures in two months? Just a pathetic effort all around...


----------



## Debbie Skinner

A lot of show lines with many known for good character. 

The sons have LN and CGF behind them on the mother's side. The Ce x Dora combo which is a good coupling. Also, Gershwin CGF->Vauban. Ferry LN (younger brother to Champion LN), Galko LN (1/2 sib to my Havoc and Herosse). I see one biting a sleeve and one a rag on a string and I think both are adults..

Have less working dogs than when I bred "Leo" Uscar O.V. (Oscar, FRII x Pesky O.V.) and I considered him a show dog or for work "other than" protection sport and k9. 

Yes, ironic about the article. But, I don't know if there are more breeders working toward this goal today. With the internet, everyone can talk to everyone else so we can all know one another. Would be interesting to know how many now vs then.

For working dogs, working life and health is very important because the dogs go through training and have to be able to "work" so I think the breeders and trainers would be very concerned. Who wants to train up a dog for police, protection sport or detection, etc and then have to replace that dog in it's prime? Big loss.



Erik Berg said:


> Debbie, would this male be considered a showline or more the workingtype?
> http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/174187/Sethi-de-la-Roche-Montaigne
> 
> Some dogs have ringtitles in his pedigree but not all, two of his sons,
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TSQDUwgJm0&feature=colike
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxVQEJCFj6w&feature=autoplay&list=UUFa-PxXVe0U-l_79tL01NHg&playnext=1
> 
> Funny enough I saw a discussion about working beacuerons a few years ago on a swedish forum. Some frenchman that lived here now with his beacueron cited an article from some french workingdog expert that was written 1983. Basically he said about the beacueron it hasn´t been so succesfull the last years but it seems now some breeders are working to get it back on the workingscene, hopefully they will be back in a few years if all goes well. Considering this was written 30 years ago it´s ironic it could more or less have been written today.
> 
> At least a few dobe and beacueron breeders seems very serious at listing both good and bad on their websites when it comes to health, how long the dog lives, cause of death and so on. Why people should keep this hidden in rare workingbreeds is beoynd me if they are serious about the future of the breed.


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Thanks for the news.  

I'm hoping to see a video or even some pixs but Jen wasn't sure if any were taken but we are hopeful. :grin:



Nia Cottrell said:


> Debbie,
> 
> I was at that trial. Did not get to see the OB, but I did see Kain in protection. Raino can appear to be very "strict," especially with "alternate breeds." Kain did the breed proud. Very nice job. Not easy for a seldon-seen breed to come in and take HIT with a field full of sable gsds.


----------



## Steve Burger

Ataro Muse said:


> As for why, it's because a lot more people care more about money and their reputations than the breed. It certainly doesn't help new breeders or foreign breeders in making decisions when the date of birth/death field is regularly blank on all the databases. I've personally contacted quite a few breeders to try to fill in the gaps of this information, but most don't answer or just get suspicious and send me a rude reply.


 Have you ever considered that people might be rude to you because of the way you come across to them?


----------



## Lisa Radcliffe

rick smith said:


> Ataro...probably because too many working breeders see "show line" as a red flag meaning a "genetic infusion of weaker working drives"
> 
> what i think i hear you saying is if a show line would increase health it might be worth considering ... "genetic diversity" wise
> 
> btw, the link on DCM genetics was interesting ,,, but still technical for me to wrap around
> ...but seems to support my assumption that unless health gets a higher priority, breeds with weak health will stay weak and die sooner regardless of their working performance levels if line breeding focuses only on drives
> 
> i just can't see the worth in raising a great dog that will die before it should ... almost like "genetic" tunnel vision ... in another way, it seems almost selfish ](*,)
> 
> all in all i just don't get it, but there MUST be a way to breed longer living dobermans that can still do the work without DCM and all the other problems ending their careers and their lives
> 
> could be wrong here, but i always thot Beauceron dna was an ingredient of the dobe ... if the beaucerons have better health why not start over and bring a bit of that blood back in ??
> ... maybe i know ... the "Beau" types would never allow that ?? //lol//


What makes you think "line breeding focuses only on drives" and not health? can you name some of these lines? what makes you think "Show line" can bring health? have you ever owned a Dobermann?


----------



## Lisa Radcliffe

Nia Cottrell said:


> Debbie,
> 
> I was at that trial. Did not get to see the OB, but I did see Kain in protection. Raino can appear to be very "strict," especially with "alternate breeds." Kain did the breed proud. Very nice job. Not easy for a seldon-seen breed to come in and take HIT with a field full of sable gsds.


Interesting Nia! first post here for you, he must have been to make quite a impression for you "with a field full of sable gsds, " lol


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## Ataro Muse

Steve Burger said:


> Have you ever considered that people might be rude to you because of the way you come across to them?


Do you consider the following message to be rude?

Hello Ms .... , 

I am currently doing research on longevity in different lines and I just wanted to ask if X is still alive? I am starting a longevity project and compiling a small database which others may find useful in future, whether they are breeding or just looking for a pet. I would very much appreciate you answering my enquiry.

Thank you in advance.


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## Debbie Skinner

For the birthday if the dog is French, you can back-track through the alphabet and the same goes for Belgium. 2013 is "I" year in France. "M" in Belgium. There are letters that are skipped, like "K, XYZ" I believe in France. It's probably just an oversight for someone to leave out the date of birth. I know with the working-dog.eu site...the admins have had to remind me to put the reg #s on at different times. The date of birth well probably many owners are just sad and never go back to update the pedigree of their dead dog. I agree it would be useful to have as much info as possible, but many times all is not possible. 



Ataro Muse said:


> ........ It certainly doesn't help new breeders or foreign breeders in making decisions when the date of birth/death field is regularly blank on all the databases. I've personally contacted quite a few breeders to try to fill in the gaps of this information, but most don't answer or just get suspicious and send me a rude reply.


----------



## Ataro Muse

Debbie Skinner said:


> For the birthday if the dog is French, you can back-track through the alphabet and the same goes for Belgium. 2013 is "I" year in France. "M" in Belgium. There are letters that are skipped, like "K, XYZ" I believe in France. It's probably just an oversight for someone to leave out the date of birth. I know with the working-dog.eu site...the admins have had to remind me to put the reg #s on at different times. The date of birth well probably many owners are just sad and never go back to update the pedigree of their dead dog. I agree it would be useful to have as much info as possible, but many times all is not possible.


I had no idea about that, this is really helpful - thanks! Unfortunately, it's not the same system with other countries as far as I know... and not many well known Dobes are coming from France or Belgium but this is good to know when researching breeds like the Beauceron.

There are several databases with information (working-dog.eu, dobermann-pedigree-database.co.uk, dobermannpedigrees.nl), and I check all of them when researching Dobermann pedigrees but when the most popular sires are lacking information, it's really difficult to get an accurate picture. I can understand that many dog owners may just not bother with it, but I believe breeders and especially owners of popular studs have a duty to release this information.


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## Debbie Skinner

SENEQUE de la Dame de Coeur, FRIII, Champion work - ring & Champion of Beauty. Excellent working Beauceron with super owner/handler and training club. 

Pedigree with pixs and videos: http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/37184/Seneque-de-la-Dame-de-Coeur

SENEQUE de la Dame de Coeur
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sR69jfyVn8U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xY9CTscZ0xo


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## Debbie Skinner

Artzain DGV, Champion de France 2008 CS, Champion de travail en ring
Ring 3 / Sélectifs, brevet d'obéissance (son of Seneque).
Ped: http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/101893/Artzain-du-Domaine-des-Gardiens-de-la-Vallée

Breeder's site: http://www.beauceron-dgv.com/


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## Erik Berg

Debbie Skinner said:


> A lot of show lines with many known for good character.
> 
> The sons have LN and CGF behind them on the mother's side. The Ce x Dora combo which is a good coupling. Also, Gershwin CGF->Vauban. Ferry LN (younger brother to Champion LN), Galko LN (1/2 sib to my Havoc and Herosse). I see one biting a sleeve and one a rag on a string and I think both are adults..
> 
> Have less working dogs than when I bred "Leo" Uscar O.V. (Oscar, FRII x Pesky O.V.) and I considered him a show dog or for work "other than" protection sport and k9.


Thanks for the info. Yeah I thought the fathers side was more showlines, but don´t know in this breed some dogs with more showblood could be as good as more workoriented breedings?

Seneque was used on the same female as the z-litter grand lutin, but there was some slight HD and one dog died young, so I heard they shouldn´t used dogs from that litter in the future, if they haven´t changed their minds.
Seneques whole program can be seen here on the link up top, good dog,
http://www.grandlutin.com/Seneque.htm

I suppose the stud of the z-litter is more show but selected for his character, was a working securitydog and it seems he and that female clicked well,
http://www.aboutbeaucerons.com/cgi-bin/geneal.pl?op=tree&index=11151&gens=4&db=beauceron.dbw

His quite old here I believe and retired from duty,
http://www.workingbeauceron.com/Lexmodprov.MPG

http://www.workingbeauceron.com/doltoverfall.MPG

Ataro, worldwide it may not be so common with dobe breeders listing much info on health/workingresults, don´t know about the situation in germany. The database the swedish kennelclub has is a real "goldmine" for such info, workingresults, HD/ED-production,veterinary-data and inbreedingcoefficent for dogs and planned litters could be found there, the info not gathered there you have to get in real life by meeting and talking to people who have the dogs/lines you are inressted in, but it´s a good start.


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## Debbie Skinner

True about Seneque..great working dog, but some problems with health in the offspring. He himself died of torsion. I think it is listed on the pedigree page with date he died..in the notes maybe. We had two grand sibs torsion as well. Have to weigh everything carefully when selecting and sometimes ..well many times..we know more after the breedings when the offsprings mature.. Seneque and the "ring team" were very good for the Beauceron in promoting the dog as a working dog and getting some renewed interest and excitement for a few years.



Erik Berg said:


> Thanks for the info. Yeah I thought the fathers side was more showlines, but don´t know in this breed some dogs with more showblood could be as good as more workoriented breedings?
> 
> Seneque was used on the same female as the z-litter grand lutin, but there was some slight HD and one dog died young, so I heard they shouldn´t used dogs from that litter in the future, if they haven´t changed their minds.
> Seneques whole program can be seen here on the link up top, good dog,
> http://www.grandlutin.com/Seneque.htm
> 
> I suppose the stud of the z-litter is more show but selected for his character, was a working securitydog and it seems he and that female clicked well,
> http://www.aboutbeaucerons.com/cgi-bin/geneal.pl?op=tree&index=11151&gens=4&db=beauceron.dbw
> 
> His quite old here I believe and retired from duty,
> http://www.workingbeauceron.com/Lexmodprov.MPG
> 
> http://www.workingbeauceron.com/doltoverfall.MPG
> 
> Ataro, worldwide it may not be so common with dobe breeders listing much info on health/workingresults, don´t know about the situation in germany. The database the swedish kennelclub has is a real "goldmine" for such info, workingresults, HD/ED-production,veterinary-data and inbreedingcoefficent for dogs and planned litters could be found there, the info not gathered there you have to get in real life by meeting and talking to people who have the dogs/lines you are inressted in, but it´s a good start.


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## Ataro Muse

Erik Berg said:


> Ataro, worldwide it may not be so common with dobe breeders listing much info on health/workingresults, don´t know about the situation in germany. The database the swedish kennelclub has is a real "goldmine" for such info, workingresults, HD/ED-production,veterinary-data and inbreedingcoefficent for dogs and planned litters could be found there, the info not gathered there you have to get in real life by meeting and talking to people who have the dogs/lines you are inressted in, but it´s a good start.


It's not difficult to find results about working or shows, HD/ED or COI, the problem is the date of death/lifespan and that is the biggest problem in the breed: dogs dying young. I have talked to many people and the thing is the people with first hand knowledge about these dogs are not talking. You of course hear rumours, but if the breeder or owner of the dog won't talk, there's really not much you can do. As a result, I've blacklisted a hell of a lot of dogs as a precaution.


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## Erik Berg

Didn´t you say earlier there are many datbases that records longevity? If some people refuses to say if a dog is still alive you can at least see when he was born and when he last competed to know he at least must have reached a certain age. I guess you have to make a choice how important longevity is compared to other qualities also.

This dobebreeder is very good at listing much about their litters, date of death is missing but is there in the swedish version of their site, a good example to follow I think,
http://www.dobfanciers.com/pkulleng.htm


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## Ataro Muse

No, there are many databases which record all information (pedigrees, health tests, working & show results etc.)... but the information which is mostly missing is longevity. Longevity is the biggest issue in the breed right now, I don't believe there are any other qualities which would justify producing dogs with a known life expectancy of only 7 years (the current average for European Dobermanns). Of course, many breeders think otherwise and that is why we have so many health problems in the first place. 

You can only get so far with working/show results because dogs are generally not shown as veterans or after their prime which is at about 5-6 years old. And guess when DCM tends to kick in? Around 5-7 years old. Furthermore, it's harder to gauge when bitches have died because they're not normally bred into their senior years nor shown as widely or often as males. Again, it's only popular sires that you can check whether they're still living by latest matings, and on top of that some older living males may have gone sterile (AI is not so popular)... Do you see the problem?


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## Matt Vandart

Outcross is the only hope IMO, even that may not work. I'm not sure dobermans were ever really good anyway, relatively speaking.


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## lynn oliver

Watch a program called ' War Dogs of the Pacific ' and then say Dobes were never any good!


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## Erynn Lucas

I like Dobermans. Their personalities and looks and querks go with my personality. I also work in IPO sport. 

For me, I like blends. A mix of Euro show line and working line. It is my preference and so far I am happy with the results. 

Dobermans are not the dog for everyone. If you are looking for a GSD personality in a Doberman coat... you will be disappointed. If you are looking for a Mal in a Doberman coat... you will be disapointed. If you happen to like Dobermans and you like sport, there are good dogs out there. 

The health is a problem. Yes. Neither NA or Euro show or Euro working line seems to have better health than each other. Cardio is a HUGE killer and there is no predictive test. We do the best we can with the tests we have available and we try to do better. There is no easy answer to this one. Test early, test often and then try to use that information when making breedings knowing that sometimes the combo just doesn't work out in health.


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## Matt Vandart

lynn oliver said:


> Watch a program called ' War Dogs of the Pacific ' and then say Dobes were never any good!


I would love to but can't find it on the internet.
I have great interest in military service dogs and am an avid reader, watcher, investigator of information.
I have heard though from one source that many dobes went onto the beaches of the pacific never made it off the beach, they just flipped out and had to be shot. I'm hoping this can be debunked by someone on here.

By the way just in case anyone thinks I am being biased I have currently two dobes and have always had/lived with dobes, I just want to know the truth, from a contemporary source tbh, both about the military dobes and whether dobes were any good at sports. I know they can and have been good PPD dogs because I have had them.


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## Joby Becker

Matt Vandart said:


> I would love to but can't find it on the internet.
> I have great interest in military service dogs and am an avid reader, watcher, investigator of information.
> I have heard though from one source that many dobes went onto the beaches of the pacific never made it off the beach, they just flipped out and had to be shot. I'm hoping this can be debunked by someone on here.
> 
> By the way just in case anyone thinks I am being biased I have currently two dobes and have always had/lived with dobes, I just want to know the truth, from a contemporary source tbh, both about the military dobes and whether dobes were any good at sports. I know they can and have been good PPD dogs because I have had them.


Matt..

Google is your friend  This might be it...

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xogp5n_war-dogs-of-the-pacific_shortfilms#.UY5D0rXqmSo


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## Matt Vandart

Man how did you come up with that?
I can never find anything I really wanna find, just loads and loads of half dressed strumpets.

and Thanks!


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## Joby Becker

Matt Vandart said:


> Man how did you come up with that?
> I can never find anything I really wanna find, just loads and loads of half dressed strumpets.
> 
> and Thanks!


I went to google. 

Typed in "War Dogs of the Pacific"...

clicked on the "more" dropdown tab, and chose "videos" *(it is great idea to do this, as it only gives video results.)

it was the 1st result


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## Matt Vandart

Cool, didn't know about that function.
By the way that was the best documentary i think I have seen, really amazing.


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## Thomas Barriano

Matt Vandart said:


> Man how did you come up with that?
> I can never find anything I really wanna find, just loads and loads of half dressed strumpets.
> 
> and Thanks!


And what exactly is your problem with half dressed strumpets?


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## Nicole Stark

I think he must have got that from Willy Wonka.


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## Matt Vandart

LOOL!

Well nothing I spose, but it gets a bit annoying, it's fills my search page, lol, teenage boy in the house so what can one expect! Ha!


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## Joby Becker

Matt Vandart said:


> LOOL!
> 
> Well nothing I spose, but it gets a bit annoying, it's fills my search page, lol, teenage boy in the house so what can one expect! Ha!


I had to look up strumpet....I was like WTF is a strumpet?
I think you menat to say model....


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## Debbie Skinner

Saphir du Grand Maurian, finale Ring 1987 video with a bit of "strumpet music" \\/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=abe24WzTo3g


Old Schutzhund video..notice the jump and dogs structures: 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=KgVpKKqA49A


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