# Advancing Bulldogs & Mastiffs as Working Dogs?



## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

This is meant for a legitimate discussion. We'll see how that goes, but I have faith.

In a strange way, this was inspired by Jeff Oehlson's comments here:
http://viewonbandogs.blogspot.com/2007/11/bandog-opinion-by-jeff-oehlson.html

So blame Jeff. 

That thread and similar opinions got me thinking. Specifically, what do you (as a community) believe the Molossers (Bulldogs & Mastiffs) need to do to be good working dogs?

There are obviously good ones, no matter how rare, including the Red Star Presa Canario generally titled in PSA, a few American Bulldogs titled in various sports and working events, even the rare Bandog or Mastiff that gets a title (generally a low-level SchH or PSA title from what I have seen). Additionally, historically speaking these types of dogs were used in various working/guardian type roles (even if you look past the hype, that seems to be factual, although every kennel seems to bring up great war stories regardless of their dogs' ability). Even the LGDs have been evolved and used in some military functions (namely I am thinking of the Caucasian Ovcharka being developed used by the Soviet government as guard dogs). There is also at least one breeder working Boerboels in sport (I believe in SchH, the breeder's significant other is an old FR decoy though), and then you have the Donovan Pinscher (perhaps kind of a hot-topic in some regard) which sounds very Malinois or Dutch Shepherd-like in how they work but with a definite Molosser-influence that seems to be doing fairly well in sport work. Despite that, it IS true those are generally the exceptions, and with people like Leri Hanson doing it a certain amount of that has to be the skill of the handlers/trainers who are passionate for their breeds. You could also argue a good GSD or Malinois could probably do a lot of that stuff in their sleep. I just bring those up to illustrate both sides of the story as I understand it.

First and foremost, I am not trying to stir things up in a negative sense. What I am interested in is honestly assessing the criticisms against, and shortcomings of, the Bulldog and Mastiff breeds and just hear what specifically breeders and owners should improve on (aside from owners' image) to make these dogs match the hype. Even if I never own another one, I would still like to see them improve as a whole and the really special ones be capitalized on for improving the breeds rather than just breeding for looks and more money. So hopefully this can be viewed as what, if anything, can and should be done to improve the Molosser breeds from the perspective of a largely herder-based audience. Or if you feel it's, you know, a lost cause and the Bandoggers and Bulldoggers should just go get a good GSD or two and leave the Bulldog on the couch. 

-Cheers


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Spell my ****ing name right.


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Spell my ****ing name right.


Sorry, I copy-&-pasted from the link.

Jeff Oehlsen (it was too late to edit my post). Unless it was another Jeff O. who said that, maybe? 

-Cheers


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

I don't consider Bulldogs and Bandog/Mastifs in the same league.

There are still quite a few people producing decent working Bulldogs out there.


The Bandog/Mastif thing is 99% Hype.



As for your information, you need to check the facts for yourself, Don't believe everything you hear and read on the WWW.


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## Michael Swetz (Jul 27, 2009)

I don't know much about working dogs, but I'm trying to learn more (hence my presence on this site). However, my 2 cents, for what little it's worth, is as follows. I own 2 Cani Corsi (Italian Mastiffs) and have generally found that with a relatively unknown and untested breed, it's hard to get a significant number of people pursuing working ability. 

Most trainers aren't really interesting in putting effort into dogs with little to no appreciable working ancestors and relatively low prey drive. Most breeders are primarily interested in showing, not working dogs. It requires fewer hours of training and most puppy buyers would rather have a pretty dog than a dog that drives you nuts until you do something with it. Also, there aren't many breeders who won't breed a dog that could be shown, but certainly can't be worked. There are some kennels that have a reputation for breeding working corsi, but until they start titling a significant number of dogs, no one is going to pay much attention to them.

I haven't seen a bandog in person, but what I have seen is plenty of people trying to cash in on them. I see classified ads for "American Bandogge Mastiffs" proclaimed to be "the ultimate home protector and like Curly from Fear Factor." Upon closer inspection, someone just bred an American Bulldog and Neo they happened to have that weren't even 2 years old yet. I wouldn't trust that the dogs' hips wouldn't pop out of socket when running much less that they'd ever hit a sleeve.

What would it take to produce working bulldogs and mastiffs? A very committed community of breeders/trainers who know what they're doing and test their stock for working ability and only breed those who pass. Will it happen, I'd like to think so, but I'm skeptical. I hope to learn more and help that effort to a greater or lesser degree, but we'll see.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

it's Cane Corso and/or Cane Corsi (plural)


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## Michael Swetz (Jul 27, 2009)

Kyle Sprag said:


> it's Cane Corso and/or Cane Corsi (plural)


It depends on who you ask. http://www.ccaaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3076 I speak a little Italian and I know the plural of cane is cani, so I tend to treat the cane as a noun and corso as an adjective. Thanks for adding such useful information to the discussion. I was hoping someone would attack my statements, not my Italian grammar.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Michael Swetz said:


> It depends on who you ask. http://www.ccaaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3076 I speak a little Italian and I know the plural of cane is cani, so I tend to treat the cane as a noun and corso as an adjective. Thanks for adding such useful information to the discussion. I was hoping someone would attack my statements, not my Italian grammar.


LOL well you are listining to a knuckle head that has been kicked off this forum.

I have owned the breed for 7 years and have NEVER seen anyone spell it Cani.


Do what you want! ](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)

Maybe it can be a "Cani" bandog............:lol::lol:


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## Jason Moore (May 3, 2009)

I am working with my 5 month old female and 4 month old male AB puppies right now. Right now just sit down, here, and retrieve. Every day I see improvements. But I have never done this with any dog. Minor sit with my lab and the retrieve well he was a lab I probably could have thrown dog shit and he would have went and gotten it. So no real experience but as I said they improve every day. I've started buying Leerburg vid's and that is helping with the basic ob. I guess ask this question this time next year and I'll have a better answer. As for why an American Bulldog. I've always been an AB person. Had one in my younger days he died at around 10 yrs old when I was in my younger 20's and every sense I've wanted another. Then when I got them I wanted ones that could do something besides run around in the yard and make me laugh.


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Kyle Sprag said:


> I don't consider Bulldogs and Bandog/Mastifs in the same league.
> 
> There are still quite a few people producing decent working Bulldogs out there.


I would tend to agree. I know of a few working kennels and have seen a few ABs working in bite work that seemed to impress the agitators, and at least two that I would put money down could have titled in sportwork. That is all speculative, however I am a little higher on the breed than Jeff.



> The Bandog/Mastif thing is 99% Hype.


Sure. However, the 1% that isn't seems pretty impressive. Brandon Wilson's SchH III Boerboel, while obviously a quite rare exception, should provide some catalyst for BB people to strive for something more. The few Bandogs titling in FR, Mondio, SchH, or PSA, even if low-level stuff, should demonstrate at least the ability for these dogs to do so. Same with the Presa, Cane Corso, and a few other Mastiff/Bandog types. So it seems obvious the potential is there, in at least the good ones. It would be nice to see something come out of all that.



> As for your information, you need to check the facts for yourself, Don't believe everything you hear and read on the WWW.


True. I do like to go check stuff out. Unfortunately, the only close working Mastiffs around here are Red Star, who seem fairly well proven. The few Bandogs & Mastiffs I have heard good things about that I believe are generally from trainers that I have talked to that say yeah or nay and have credentials to back those opinions up. Not ideal, but and you're right, but it is what it is. ABs are here aplenty, and the breeders I have seen I think are very good, however there are also other breeders in the area that are apparently not-so-hot.

-Cheers


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

What bulldogs need. That aint dificult 
First of they nead to muture quicer AND nead to be quicer lerners. Thats my first problem with MY dogs. I do not compare them to other bulldogs but to GSD and Mals and my biggest problem is that it takes WAY to long time to lern them the same stuff as the working breeds. When we start to get that and som nerv issus out of the way we have realy nce dogs


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Sure. However, the 1% that isn't seems pretty impressive. Brandon Wilson's SchH III Boerboel, while obviously a quite rare exception, should provide some catalyst for BB people to strive for something more. The few Bandogs titling in FR, Mondio, SchH, or PSA, even if low-level stuff, should demonstrate at least the ability for these dogs to do so. Same with the Presa, Cane Corso, and a few other Mastiff/Bandog types. So it seems obvious the potential is there, in at least the good ones. It would be nice to see something come out of all that.

THe first part I will address is why would a breeder strive for something more ?? There is no money in it, so what would be the point ?? It is not like there is no market for these couch potatoes.

The low level stuff is poorly done as well. These dogs melt under the control needed at the higher levels. It would be nice to see one go all the way, but again, it would be this tiny tiny percentage of the population, and the odds of THAT dog getting an owner that can take him to the ring three in MR or FR is astronomical.

More than likely, that dog will be in a regular home, and the odds are against him even being bred.

As far as breeding, the few and far between that do get these titles are not out there producing much. Not as far as I can see. The owners went out and titled the dog and there you have it, a nice marketing scheme.

Sch is a goof title at the club level. I can't even watch dogs that almost cur out get pronounced at the critique. Forget about the OB or the tracking. 

Dumbing down a sport is a national pastime here. It is all over the place. If a dog gets a gimme title so that people can feel good about themselves, then what good is the title ??

The whole ****ing point of the 3 is that NOT EVERY DOG should get it. I would like to get my dog to 3. He is more than capable, and can do extrordinary work. Will he when it is time to trial ?? (odds are not good)

The thing that I would (in a perfect world) is get all the bullshitters in the mastiff/bulldog breeds to shut the **** up and title their dogs. Enough of this PPD crap. 

It is hard enough just to do the sports, ALL of them, and then to sit and listen to the bandog/bulldog/ whatever people to say that sport is not REAL or some shit like that gets old. I could write a book with all the different times I have pointed this out. It is real, it IS hard, mostly logistically, and then there is the burden of owning a bulldog/bandog/whatever. These dogs on the whole are just shitters when it comes to sport. I think they are good pets, but what do I know. Maybe they are not even good pets. LOL They smell funny.

People just get too butt hurt about the dogs inability to do the job, and then just start shopping for the opinion they want, and PPD people have the responses they want, and there you go, I am off typing way too much about dumb ass bulldogs/bandogs/mutts.


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## Jason Moore (May 3, 2009)

But Jeff you know there are those few people that actually wish to improve the breed for actual work/sport not the ppd bs. What about those few that offer a free second pup to those that get there previous dog titled. And those that offer discounts to those that have titled dogs and try to send them to people that actually work the breed. 

You know my thoughts on the subject. IMO there are the few that can do it and with selective breeding the few can become a few more and so on until it is not that uncommon to see a sch 3 fr 3 mr 3 ab. Not nearly as common as Mals DSD's or GSD's but imo with hard work of dedicated breeders it can happen. Just takes time. 

But for the most part your right about the couch potato aspect and being basically being a pet. But with breeders basically stating how big there dogs are and not just to let you know big there dogs are but as a selling pointof look how big my dogs get and how fast they get this big. It pisses me off and its people like this that are ruining the breed.


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> THe first part I will address is why would a breeder strive for something more ?? There is no money in it, so what would be the point ?? It is not like there is no market for these couch potatoes.


I would argue there are a few out there who just love the breeds and are striving to preserve/create working examples (ABs and Presa for the most part in the bully world, at least from what I can tell), and care enough about them and the history that gets thrown around so much of ye dogges of olde that rode into battle or whatnot. This can be both the fanciful tales of Mastini riding to war with the Romans, or something as recent as Boxers being used in police/military work just a few generations ago. Some genuinely seem to care more about the breed than merely making money off of it. They are in the minority, but I could say that (to varying degrees) about any breed.



> It is hard enough just to do the sports, ALL of them, and then to sit and listen to the bandog/bulldog/ whatever people to say that sport is not REAL or some shit like that gets old. I could write a book with all the different times I have pointed this out. It is real, it IS hard, mostly logistically,


Ahhh, that age old debate. I'm not touching that one.



> Maybe they are not even good pets. LOL They smell funny.


My old bulldog could clear a room, I'll give you that.



> People just get too butt hurt about the dogs inability to do the job, and then just start shopping for the opinion they want, and PPD people have the responses they want, and there you go, I am off typing way too much about dumb ass bulldogs/bandogs/mutts.


I really don't get all hung up on people's insecurities with dogs. I just happen to like the Bulldogs and Mastiffs personality-wise, see a long history as working dogs over the generations, and would like to see that preserved. Not too different from hearing my dad talk about the GSDs he had growing up and wanting them to be preserved as working dogs instead of turned into movie stars with sloping backs and that GSD show-pose and terrible hips and skittish personality. Not entirely the same thing, but not terribly different in my mind. Just that if people care about these breeds, it seems like they should strive to make them the best they can. Not slam square pegs into round holes, but if you're going to bill them as something, work to make them better at it and be realistic about the situation.

Anyway, thanks for typing too much. 

-Cheers


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Ok, the both of you count up all the breeders of the type of dogs you like, and then sort through the BULLSHIT they spew about their dogs working......not weight pulling, what a ****ing joke that is, and then get back to me on what percentage is really breeding for work.

And the people that are giving away pups to people that titled dogs from them, God bless them, but what percentages of their pups are getting titled ??

I wasn't BS'ing about logistics being the hardest part about dog sports. Look at a Mondio field, and think how much $$$ that would cost to recreate, if you didn't have property to put it on yourself.

My group has the hurdle, the broadjump, and the pallisade, and we got it done in less than a couple of months, but are a ways off of getting a trailer to haul it in, and getting barrels and blinds, and bla bla bla.

The dogs, or the people are the least of the worries for me. I am glad there is no Bulldogs to wear me out.


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Ok, the both of you count up all the breeders of the type of dogs you like, and then sort through the BULLSHIT they spew about their dogs working......not weight pulling, what a ****ing joke that is, and then get back to me on what percentage is really breeding for work.
> 
> And the people that are giving away pups to people that titled dogs from them, God bless them, but what percentages of their pups are getting titled ??


Not many. I found that out quick. Still, if you look hard enough (or you're a fanatic), and you're willing to take a gamble, there are a few out there. A few even come without the sales pitch. There are a few breeders interested in working and titling dogs. The Presa's the easiest to find examples of off-hand, just because they mostly seem attached to Red Star's line. Most of the rest I am aware of are just individuals who have taken a fancy to a certain breed or cross and are training SchH or Mondio with their individual dog, or who are interested in making something of a breed (I'm thinking of one Boerboel breeder in particular) and working on titling them.

Somehow I doubt this is convincing you this is such a hot idea.



> I wasn't BS'ing about logistics being the hardest part about dog sports. Look at a Mondio field, and think how much $$$ that would cost to recreate, if you didn't have property to put it on yourself.


Then try to get enough people together geographically speaking to do it locally. I've thought about it. The local SchH trainer (Debra Krsnich at Foxtal) has expressed interest in Mondio, she even has the property, I'm pretty sure she has the equipment (most if not all of it). I think she just gave up on it since it would be a pain with all the travel (I talked to her a couple of years ago so don't quote me on that). So yeah, the logistics are daunting. The closest club to me has to be at least three hours away. There's a "club" closer, but they don't have a decoy or really do much that I know of locally, just collect a lot of frequent flyer miles. So yeah, Mondio looks and sounds like a lot of fun. The people I've talked to who do it or have looked into it (including a couple Bulldog and Presa people, go figure), have said it's great. I am sure it's not the easiest thing in the world. Personally, I'll probably need to drive long distances for almost any of the sports.

I can't help but feel you are pretty much right, however I also think that it would be great if the people who do care about the aforementioned breeds and are doing something with them have something good come out of it. The individuals that have risen to some level show some potential for this type, and I think there are some who genuinely have good dogs that want to seem them become more than hype and cash cows. I can at least hope.

-Cheers


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

I came from the bull breeds to end up here, now looking for a good herder.


One, it seems like (at least with a pup) you are going off percentages. And any bull breed, like an american GSD, is likely going to disappoint you. It seems agreed upon the AB's are the most likely to succeed (unless you include pit bulls in the discussion), and everything after that just gets worse and worse.

Also, I heard to many accounts of the big scary bandog (AB's and all of them are bandogs, just depends how recently they were created and on what scale, one backyard guy vs a region)....being run off or cowering behind their owner.

I do like the 'mastiff' temperment though.


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