# what happens when you try to make them bite...



## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4bFeJQmC-U&feature=player_detailpage


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Very sad... 

Wonder what the judge was saying at the end.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Funny watching the helper anticipate the cheap shots to the leg.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

I don't blame the helper. Feed him the sleeve to keep your leg out of his mouth.

Dog may do well on a PD somewhere. He isn't afraid to bite, LOL


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## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

He's a better man than I for continuing to work the dog after the cheap shots on the first bite. I tried to man it up by working a dirty dog one time and I got bit in the hand for my trouble.


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## Jason Davis (Oct 12, 2009)

Exactly why my sissy a** does ring sport. I get to wear a full suit;-)


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Come on those were little fear bite didn't even break shin or leave a bruise

Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Jerry Lyda said:


> Dog may do well on a PD somewhere. He isn't afraid to bite, LOL


 Serious or jest? I wouldnt want that dog backing me up in a bar fight.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

will fernandez said:


> Come on those were little fear bite didn't even break shin or leave a bruise
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk


Exactly. 
little front teeth pinching, probably irritating as hell but couldn't have left a mark. 

Cracks me up, whenever anyone tells the show set their dogs are crappy at grip work they bring up Ghandi Arlett (father of the dog in the original post) as if he was a biting machine, greatest thing ever, showed the best of the working lines a thing or two!!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JQzTj-YKZ8

Oh yeah, right - he was a real manstopper!!!!!

Anyway to answer the question, here are the rules, scroll down to Performance & Evaluation Test. Though it doesn't state this, I believe if a dog bites anywhere but the sleeve it is disqualified. http://germanshepherddog.com/regulations/sieger_show_rules.htm


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

jeez I am stupid. No where did anyone ask the question!!! I guess I'm seeing things, I thought someone asked if the dog would be disqualified from the SS show. If the dog bites anywhere other than the arm he is disqualified from a working trial and it is so stated, I think the same rule applies to shows but I can't find it speciifically mentioned in the SS show rules.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

W-E-A-K, even most backyard PP unstable dogs would have at least grabbed his leg.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

I don't think this is a case of a dog that's been forced to bite, but rather a dog that's been forced to release the bite with too much stim from an Ecollar.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Lou Castle said:


> I don't think this is a case of a dog that's been forced to bite, but rather a dog that's been forced to release the bite with too much stim from an Ecollar.


I'm just glad I don't train with you!
This is the part where pedigrees are important!
You truly don't have a clue Lou! 
LOL " No Clue Lou"


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Lou Castle said:


> I don't think this is a case of a dog that's been forced to bite, but rather a dog that's been forced to release the bite with too much stim from an Ecollar.


I wouldn't expect you to know about show dogs or how they get some to bite, considering you only deal with dogs that somebody else started! You should really get a pup and learn more about progression! It's the missing part of the puzzle that might make you look intelligent LMAO!


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Man...this is the place to come if you want INSTANT analysis

a whopping minute and a few seconds and the DOG is judged and then pedigree/genetics is determined the cause

unless you know the dog and handler and have seen the training HOW IN THE HECK can you judge the causes ???](*,)](*,)
- because you know dogs so well you can pass judgement in a minute ??

and when are you capable of tagging a dog as "dirty" (and maybe) worthless ?? another stoopid SchH term that gets used way too fast imo

the FIRST clue to a problem was the handler having ZERO control and rarely even watching his dog
- didn't notice the paw raised up which is a huge flag of anxiety
- couldn't even get the dog to sit and wait
- couldn't get the dog to FUS
- rather than out/back the dog off he slaps it silly

IMNSHO this could be a decent (maybe not great) dog but it obviously wasn't ready for what it was being forced to do at the time this video was taken, and that is ALL handler related since he shouldn't have had the dog there in the first place

so we get a nice long thread where everyone agrees if there is a problem with the dog we should do SELF analysis and figure where we are Fkng up, but in the next instant we judge a dog in a min plus that is being "handled" by an idiot

i think one post here was on target tho ... and probably a pretty nice dog with no foundation work that has been screwed up by heavy handed compulsion to "supposedly" teach it an aus


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Rick, it's a show dog! Game on!!!!

Rick do you have some videos of your training? 
I'm getting very curious of your abilities


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

yeah, no this is just a typical show line shitter. Problem is dogs like this with shit grip work are regularly awarded VA placements when clearly they should be given "insufficient" ratings. tsk tsk tsk

See that's the problem. The dogs are to be judged by their performance "ON THAT DAY", which means if the dog shows as a shitter he is to be judged a shitter, but that's not what happens. They shouldn't be giiven a pass because of excuses like "the dog is stressed" or "the dog wasn't showing his best" or "he hasn't worked in a really long time because we don't want him break a tooth" or "the mean helper wacked him too hard" or "boo hoo the evil helper stepped on his little foot and made him run away" - none of which has any business in the book of acceptable excuses for any self respecting working dog anyway. So ON THAT DAY the dog deserved an "insufficient" for the work we saw on the video which is what he is to be judged by. Instead the dog is given a "pronounced" rating and allowed a VA rating.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> yeah, no this is just a typical show line shitter. Problem is dogs like this with shit grip work are regularly awarded VA placements when clearly they should be given "insufficient" ratings. tsk tsk tsk
> 
> See that's the problem. The dogs are to be judged by their performance "ON THAT DAY", which means if the dog shows as a shitter he is to be judged a shitter, but that's not what happens. They shouldn't be giiven a pass because of excuses like "the dog is stressed" or "the dog wasn't showing his best" or "he hasn't worked in a really long time because we don't want him break a tooth" or "the mean helper wacked him too hard" or "boo hoo the evil helper stepped on his little foot and made him run away" - none of which has any business in the book of acceptable excuses for any self respecting working dog anyway. So ON THAT DAY the dog deserved an "insufficient" for the work we saw on the video which is what he is to be judged by. Instead the dog is given a "pronounced" rating and allowed a VA rating.


Which as far as I'm concerned, really stinks and is why show line GSDs are so completely ****ed up today.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

I agree Susan, and I also agree that Rick has been watchIng Cesar Milan! "the dogs paw was raised"" too fuking funny!!!


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

I think Rambo is a strong, powerful example of a GSD show dog.
He was just confused because the decoy had the sleeve on the wrong arm ;-)


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Timothy Stacy said:


> I'm just glad I don't train with you!


Not half as glad as I am Timothy! If you're anywhere near as rude in person as you are here, I couldn't stand you for more than a couple of minutes. 



Timothy Stacy said:


> This is the part where pedigrees are important!


Pedigrees only point to *a tendency *for a dog to be a certain way. They don't have absolute control over what a dog actually is. And sometimes they are completely wrong as far as making predictions. 



Timothy Stacy said:


> You truly don't have a clue Lou!
> LOL " No Clue Lou"


Yeah you're right Timothy. Over 32 years of working and training police dogs, and I don't have a clue. I'd bet that the people who put on my 53 seminars and attended them would disagree with you. I see that you've adopted the debate tactics of some other forum members, if you have nothing intelligent to say, go to the personal attack. 



Timothy Stacy said:


> I wouldn't expect you to know about show dogs or how they get some to bite, considering you only deal with dogs that somebody else started!


You really should find out the facts about someone before you go shooting your mouth off like this. Doing it this way, by assuming something, just makes you look ... well, I don't care for name calling. 



Timothy Stacy said:


> You should really get a pup and learn more about progression!


Another assumption. 



Timothy Stacy said:


> It's the missing part of the puzzle that might make you look intelligent LMAO!


Keep laughing Timothy. You're the one jumping to conclusions and looking foolish.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Rick, it's a show dog! Game on!!!!


I never said that his work was exemplary. It's hardly an excellent bite. But that's not his biggest problem. If you had enough experience with the Ecollar with people trying to blast their dogs off a bite, my biggest call to fix, you'd spot the obvious signs of it. Since you don't ...


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

And if you ever had the experance of training and titling a schutzhund dog you would know that there are a few things that can cause that issue. Since you haven't......


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Lou Castle said:


> I'd bet that the people who put on my 53 seminars and attended them would disagree with you.


Take the bet Tim. Easy money.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

watched the video clip again and re-read my comments and they still apply imo
..... but forgot to mention how grossly overweight the dog was...show dog or whatever dog ... my critique was only on a min of video and what the DOG and bad handler was doing with no prior knowledge of either of them

i admit i have watched Cesar ... lots of good ways to learn how NOT to handle a dog, entertaining sometimes and i'm jealous of how much money he makes
- and he does say some common sense stuff while he's working his miracle, made for TV dog cures
...but never heard Cesar say anything about picking up a paw in that situation as a sign of stress or anxiety.....but it is, and anyone should know that


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## Tim Lynam (Jun 12, 2009)

"_picking up a paw in that situation as a sign of stress or anxiety.....but it is, and anyone should know that_."

If that's the only body language that dog is displaying in that clip, and the most significant, that you notice Rick, you can't see the forest for the trees...


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

High stress panic biting! That dog doesn't want to be there.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Tim....it isn't and it wasn't 
(never saw a forest; not enuff trees)

you really need me to provide a full list of body language by the dog AND handler ??
is there something you need me to prove to you too ?? 
want some videos too ??  lol

my only reason for the SECOND time commenting on it was because some of the "pros" on here think it's just a "Cesar thing"...whatever the hell that means ......actually i'd like that comment explained if there was a point there

but it was significant to me, because of WHEN it happened....before ANYTHING happened :-( ...got that ??

anyway, if i made videos of me training dogs would that make my observation more right or wrong ?? rotflmfao 

it was a dead giveaway the dog wanted out of there b4 anything started....and obviously went downhill after that
did you notice that ??

i just call em as i see em ... kinda what happens in a forum ... if you agree fine ... if you don't fine ... if you want to say why you do or don't; fine too 
- and i'm fine with sarcasm too when it's funny


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

rick smith said:


> it was a dead giveaway the dog wanted out of there b4 anything started....and obviously went downhill after that
> did you notice that ??


 And yet in your first post you said no one was able to judge the dog on a one minute video???
You even claimed he was a decent dog in your first post. 
Sorry but its a POS and if you cant see that in the one minute video you watched then its your credibility that needs looking into to.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Christopher
....gee whiz don't beat me up so hard; you'll make me lose my confidence and self esteem 
i WROTE :
"IMNSHO this could be a decent (maybe not great) dog but it obviously wasn't ready for what it was being forced to do at the time this video was taken, and that is ALL handler related since he shouldn't have had the dog there in the first place

did i write it was a decent dog ?? - NO
did i even write it was a good dog ?? NO
is english your second language ?? lol
flunk grammar ?? 
was that statement a "Judgement" of the dog ?? ditto
- the only "judgements" i passed on the dog was that it was grossly overweight and didn't wanna be there....what part of that do you disagree with too ??

imo you're the one passing final judgment ... ("POS")
- i just wasn't ready to go that far on a one min video; that's where we differ, and if it is clearly a POS in your eyes; fine too; i just don't judge dogs as quickly as you do

anyway, do you know the history of the dog and how many times the dog had been worked by a COMPETENT handler ? i doubt it
- did you know anything of it's training at all ? doubt that too

maybe it would be a lousy dog for SchH, but my comments were mostly directed at people like you who judge/label a dog in a minute
- and are you sure no matter what training it did get, it would have been a waste to even try cause it's a "show" dog ?
.... cause it's all genetics right ?? wrong again, but good genes does help a helluva lot  

anyway, if you think i'm defending the dog, or even saying it's a good dog, you are dead wrong, i didn't, and i have NO interest in ranting about the politics of getting show dogs illegitimate titles for dog breeding (kachiiing) purposes so i'll stay away from that topic too, thank you. but i hate the whole concept of "show dogs" and ANY organization that supports or even sponsors dog shows

i just happen to be the kind of person who gives dogs more credit and chances than others do before dumping them or putting a label on them, and any progress i can make with any kind of problem dog gives me more satisfaction then merely tweaking an already good dog ... doesn't frustrate me a bit cause i'm not looking for world class dogs to train and never claimed i was ...much too lazy and clumsy for that 

this was too long 
so how about "no, i didn't say that; you're wrong"


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

rick smith said:


> Christopher
> ....gee whiz don't beat me up so hard; you'll make me lose my confidence and self esteem


I wouldnt worry about your self esteem, its your credability that looks shakey 


rick smith said:


> i WROTE :
> "IMNSHO this could be a decent (maybe not great) dog but it obviously wasn't ready for what it was being forced to do at the time this video was taken, and that is ALL handler related since he shouldn't have had the dog there in the first place


So you watch the video and your take on it, in your own words, was "This could be a decent (maybe not great) dog " and that the dogs problems were "all handler related". 
Im saying the dog is in no way a "decent" dog, and its issues are that its a POS, not because he has a pussy owner. 



rick smith said:


> did i write it was a decent dog ?? - NO
> did i even write it was a good dog ?? NO
> is english your second language ?? lol
> flunk grammar ??
> ...


Dont try and back peddle, your edit fuction only lasts 10 minutes. Everyone can read what you wrote. 




rick smith said:


> imo you're the one passing final judgment ... ("POS")


Yes I did pass judgement on the dog. I dont like him. I think hes a poor example of a German Shepherd, both in character and looks. If he ever came upon some real resistance from a real decoy, hes gonna run and not look back. 


rick smith said:


> - i just wasn't ready to go that far on a one min video; that's where we differ, and if it is clearly a POS in your eyes; fine too; i just don't judge dogs as quickly as you do


Are you saying that after watching that video you were unable to read that dog????? But you were able to read what the handler was all about???? 



rick smith said:


> anyway, do you know the history of the dog and how many times the dog had been worked by a COMPETENT handler ? i doubt it
> - did you know anything of it's training at all ? doubt that too


Yeah the show people like to make their dogs look shit, so that they fail the breed surveys and then cant be bred from. Its what they do. And of course the USA has so many top handlers, trainers, decoys and breeders compared to those stupid Europeans who have no idea how to train, breed or decoy their dogs. Maybe you could relocate to Holland, France, Germany or Belgium and make shitloads of money showing them how to make their POS show dogs to them monsters that you have in your backyard. :roll:




rick smith said:


> maybe it would be a lousy dog for SchH, but my comments were mostly directed at people like you who judge/label a dog in a minute


Im not saying its only a lousy IPO dog, Im saying it would be a lousy police dog as well. Im saying its a POS all round.


rick smith said:


> - and are you sure no matter what training it did get, it would have been a waste to even try cause it's a "show" dog ?
> .... cause it's all genetics right ?? wrong again, but good genes does help a helluva lot


Yes, no matter what training that dog had, no matter who is handling the lead, that dog will cur when it faces some real pressure. I gather you think it would rock, because you seem to want to argue about it.


rick smith said:


> anyway, if you think i'm defending the dog, or even saying it's a good dog, you are dead wrong, i didn't, and i have NO interest in ranting about the politics of getting show dogs illegitimate titles for dog breeding (kachiiing) purposes so i'll stay away from that topic too, thank you. but i hate the whole concept of "show dogs" and ANY organization that supports or even sponsors dog shows


Um, yeah you did defend the dog. Like I said the edit fuction has sailed, what you wrote is still up.



rick smith said:


> i just happen to be the kind of person who gives dogs more credit and chances than others do before dumping them or putting a label on them, and any progress i can make with any kind of problem dog gives me more satisfaction then merely tweaking an already good dog ... doesn't frustrate me a bit cause i'm not looking for world class dogs to train and never claimed i was ...much too lazy and clumsy for that


Nah, I just think you dont really know what your talking about.


rick smith said:


> this was too long
> so how about "no, i didn't say that; you're wrong"


Your actually right for the first time. It was too long. =D>


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

It's been at least a month since the last bash a showline dog thread. This is productive or helpful how?

The showline is without courge, will tuck tail and run, will take cheap shots, will not make a good police or PPD, is a couch potato, is a poor example of a GSD, sucks at protection, sucks at OB, sucks at tracking, sucks, sucks, sucks!

The showline is without courge, will tuck tail and run, will take cheap shots, will not make a good police or PPD, is a couch potato, is a poor example of a GSD, sucks at protection, sucks at OB, sucks at tracking, sucks, sucks, sucks!

The showline is without courge, will tuck tail and run, will take cheap shots, will not make a good police or PPD, is a couch potato, is a poor example of a GSD, sucks at protection, sucks at OB, sucks at tracking, sucks, sucks, sucks!

The showline is without courge, will tuck tail and run, will take cheap shots, will not make a good police or PPD, is a couch potato, is a poor example of a GSD, sucks at protection, sucks at OB, sucks at tracking, sucks, sucks, sucks!

The showline is without courge, will tuck tail and run, will take cheap shots, will not make a good police or PPD, is a couch potato, is a poor example of a GSD, sucks at protection, sucks at OB, sucks at tracking, sucks, sucks, sucks!

The showline is without courge, will tuck tail and run, will take cheap shots, will not make a good police or PPD, is a couch potato, is a poor example of a GSD, sucks at protection, sucks at OB, sucks at tracking, sucks, sucks, sucks!

The showline is without courge, will tuck tail and run, will take cheap shots, will not make a good police or PPD, is a couch potato, is a poor example of a GSD, sucks at protection, sucks at OB, sucks at tracking, sucks, sucks, sucks!

The showline is without courge, will tuck tail and run, will take cheap shots, will not make a good police or PPD, is a couch potato, is a poor example of a GSD, sucks at protection, sucks at OB, sucks at tracking, sucks, sucks, sucks!

I've said it over and over, but I fail to get any satifaction from it. Could someone explain how they get satifaction from routinely bashing the showline GSD? I mean over and over and over again?

It's so boring, yawn.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Sorry you find the sad truth so boring, Edward, maybe that's part of the problem too. Not you per se, because you aren't a breeder, but it seems to me the overwhelming majority of show line breeders puts work ethic at the back of the list, if they put it anywhere at all. At best they pay lip service to it, they don't understand it's function and they just don't give a damn about it. 

You know what really needs to happen? The SV needs to put the title requirement and the Performance Test of the SS to sleep. Stop pretending they give a shit about working ability, because judging by the dogs at SS they don't give a damn (and the SS is supposed to be comprised of the cream of the crop, don't forget).

If the show line breeders were honest they would just brag about what pretty prancy ponies they make. Now THAT's what their REAL good at.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Just so there is no misunderstanding, there are plenty of working line breeders who make me sick too. The ones who do nothing with their breeding stock, and when selling puppies use the color of the dogs (black sable and black puppies for example), as their selling tool since they don't do shit with their own breed stock and don't know diddly about what to look for when it comes to working ability anyways. Way too many breeding working lines good for nothing but lawn ornaments and pets, way way way too many of them for my liking. I think they must have slunk over from the show side, figured that market was too competitive or something, so they come on over to try and ruin the little tiny working GSD world. There are good breeders but you have to know where to look, sometimes who you know is almost as important as what you know!!!!!!!
:roll:


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Timothy Stacy said:


> I'm just glad I don't train with you!
> This is the part where pedigrees are important!
> You truly don't have a clue Lou!
> LOL " No Clue Lou"


Chuckle, chuckle from me too!!

I once told this person that my dog ignored a herd of deer running up past the track about 3 yards higher away. The dog was very interested in deer but at this moment in time his interest was in the track. He didn't believe me, although I have never felt the need to lie about my dogs. I have had good and bad moments!!

I think his knowledge of dogs and their behaviour is slightly less than he would wish us to believe.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Christopher Jones said:


> Serious or jest? I wouldnt want that dog backing me up in a bar fight.


Just joking


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> And if you ever had the experance of training and titling a schutzhund dog you would know that there are a few things that can cause that issue. Since you haven't......


Yeah you're right Chris. When you blast a SchH dog off a bite with an Ecollar and he becomes hectic it's completely different from when you do the same thing to a police dog.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Earlier I wrote,


> I'd bet that the people who put on my 53 seminars and attended them would disagree with you.





Christopher Smith said:


> Take the bet Tim. Easy money.


Easy money for me Chris. Sixteen of those seminars were done for the same seminar producer. One of them was repeated five times and will be again next year. Wondering, with your vast experience and expertise, how many seminars you've been called on to do and how many of them were repeats?


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Anyone who's been in the game for any length of time knows that you never say "never" and you never say "always." If you judge a dog by his papers or 60 seconds of video, you'll never really know about him. This is ignorance and arrogance of the worst kind.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Lou Castle said:


> Yeah you're right Chris. When you blast a SchH dog off a bite with an Ecollar and he becomes hectic it's completely different from when you do the same thing to a police dog.


 
Your telling us we are arrogant and ignorant for watching 60 seconds of video, making an assessment of the behaviors we see. Yet, you are absolutley positive that the dog is behaving the way it is from e-collar work. You make this determination by what? by Watching 60 seconds of video, Not actually seeing any e-collar work, but by making an assessement of the behaviors you see. 

Or could you tell that by the papers?

Seems a little hypcritcal. But hey if you think this dog would add some value to your stock...go on ahead, I am sure there is not much of a fight for him. If I see sixty seconds of a dog, in order to even have a second thought about the dog...that sixty seconds best make me smile. Not leave me with questions of doubt.


Anyone seen Mark O.? I think I found the guy he's really mad at!


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Here is my guess...The dog was worked with the stick before the he went out on the field to try to light him up. Dog didnt want to to out because if he does the pressure comes again. The dog is doing something he has no business doing because he is genetically not strong enough to do it. 

Sometimes sixty seconds is all you need to some up a dog. Sometimes you know what a dog is all about by just watching him enter a field.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

will fernandez said:


> Here is my guess...The dog was worked with the stick before the he went out on the field to try to light him up. Dog didnt want to to out because if he does the pressure comes again. The dog is doing something he has no business doing because he is genetically not strong enough to do it.
> 
> Sometimes sixty seconds is all you need to some up a dog. Sometimes you know what a dog is all about by just watching him enter a field.


Bingo!


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## Mark Sheplak (Oct 28, 2011)

Raiser has the solution, RSV2000. It needs to come to the USA as well.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

James Downey said:


> Your telling us we are arrogant and ignorant for watching 60 seconds of video, making an assessment of the behaviors we see. Yet, you are absolutley positive that the dog is behaving the way it is from e-collar work. You make this determination by what? by Watching 60 seconds of video, Not actually seeing any e-collar work, but by making an assessement of the behaviors you see.


If you were more familiar with bad Ecollar work you'd recognize the signs of it. Nothing else in the world causes the same responses. 



James Downey said:


> But hey if you think this dog would add some value to your stock...go on ahead


I never said that I'd take the dog. But I think his bigger problem is that he's been zapped too hard with an Ecollar to get him to release. With a weaker dog, as this one seems to be, that can make all of his work even worse.


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

susan tuck said:


> jeez I am stupid. No where did anyone ask the question!!! I guess I'm seeing things, I thought someone asked if the dog would be disqualified from the SS show. If the dog bites anywhere other than the arm he is disqualified from a working trial and it is so stated, I think the same rule applies to shows but I can't find it speciifically mentioned in the SS show rules.


I almost did the same thing.  It was a comment on the youtube.


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## Mark Oliver (Nov 10, 2011)

James Downey said:


> Your telling us we are arrogant and ignorant for watching 60 seconds of video, making an assessment of the behaviors we see. Yet, you are absolutley positive that the dog is behaving the way it is from e-collar work. You make this determination by what? by Watching 60 seconds of video, Not actually seeing any e-collar work, but by making an assessement of the behaviors you see.
> 
> Or could you tell that by the papers?
> 
> ...


If I knew who Lou Castle was, I still wouldn't be mad at him personally. It is the idea that training caused this. Genetics 101 when I see this poor guy. I hope the dog got rid of his nazi handler who was trying to make him something he was not meant to be. 

Mark O.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Mark Oliver said:


> If I knew who Lou Castle was, I still wouldn't be mad at him personally.
> Mark O.


Mark


You're in law enforcement K9 Training and you're never hard of Lou Castle?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Mark
> 
> 
> You're in law enforcement K9 Training and you're never hard of Lou Castle?


are you* hard* of Lou?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> are you* hard* of Lou?


"Heard"

I thought even you could have figured that out


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Lou Castle said:


> If you were more familiar with bad Ecollar work you'd recognize the signs of it. Nothing else in the world causes the same responses.


I think your mistaken on that. I have seen dogs whom do that same thing who on thier outs, Because they really do not what out means, try to rebite and the helper hits them with the stick in the face. But instead of really learning out, they try to take little quick pot shots, trying to beat getting hit in the face.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

James :
re: "I think your mistaken on that. I have seen dogs whom do that same thing who on thier outs, Because they really do not what out means, try to rebite and the helper hits them with the stick in the face. But instead of really learning out, they try to take little quick pot shots, trying to beat getting hit in the face."

are u saying this in reference to basically good dogs and "not fear biters" ?

reason i'm asking, is because i have seen this many many times with pet dogs....and a lot of times i didn't see it as fear biting because the dogs are not fearful at all; often just the opposite
- in every case the owner had just seemed to condition the dog to develop this "snap back" behavior by always slapping them when they try to bite anything
- of course there was not "out" being conditioned because there never was an "in" taught in the first place 
- what i have done is pulled a tug and allowed them to bite and have a good time.....then start conditioning them to out when the tug goes dead
- that has worked in almost all cases

anyway if that was the kind of dog you were referring to, it certainly does apply to pet dogs as well as working dogs in bite sports, even tho it may be to a lesser degree


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Lou Castle said:


> Yeah you're right Chris. When you blast a SchH dog off a bite with an Ecollar and he becomes hectic it's completely different from when you do the same thing to a police dog.


I have not said shit about police dogs. But I know that that problem can be caused by more than "blasting them off a bite". 

Keep at it though, NCL. It's funny to watch someone so blinded by their own experience that they can't believe that others can have a valid expereance that differs from theirs.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

James Downey said:


> I think your mistaken on that. I have seen dogs whom do that same thing who on thier outs, Because they really do not what out means, try to rebite and the helper hits them with the stick in the face. But instead of really learning out, they try to take little quick pot shots, trying to beat getting hit in the face.


It's not just that the dog rebites that's a sign that he's been blasted with an Ecollar James. And it's not just because _"they really do not what out means."_ The last is just part of the issue. There are many other signs present. As I said, _"if you were more familiar with bad Ecollar work, you'd recognize it."_


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> I have not said shit about police dogs.


While you didn't mention PSD's you wrote this, _"And if you ever had the experance of training and titling a schutzhund dog you would know that there are a few things that can cause that issue. Since you haven't....."_ The clear meaning her is that only SchH dogs display the issues that this dog is having and/or that I have to have _"train[ed] and title[d] a SchH dog"_ in order to know anything about this. That's nonsense, of course. 



Christopher Smith said:


> But I know that that problem can be caused by more than "blasting them off a bite".


I doubt that you're even seeing the signs that say this was an Ecollar. 



Christopher Smith said:


> Keep at it though, NCL. It's funny to watch someone so blinded by their own experience that they can't believe that others can have a valid expereance that differs from theirs.


Oh it's not just my experience Christopher. I've shown the video to half a dozen people who have been training police dogs AND sport dogs for decades with Ecollars. Guess what * everyone one of them * came to the same conclusion as I did. So much for _"blinded by [my] own experience."_ And the gratuitous rudeness; it makes you look even smarter!


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Okay well I think we can all agree at the very least, this dog is "conflicted":lol: . 

Correct me if I'm wrong Lou, but I don't think you are trying to imply this dog's ONLY issue is poor ecollar handling. I think you are saying in addition to whatever else may be going on with this dog, he has had poor ecollar training. If you don't mind, I would appreciate it if you would elaborate on the signs (both subtle and obvious) you are seeing that lead you to that conclusion?


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Susan it's obvious you know littleabout the effects of poor e-collar use!

My response in black
1.At 2 seconds the dog turns his head.... Obvious sign
2. The paw raise at 5 seconds.... Stress is building from poorly timed stim in warm ups!
3.growling on the bite....., trainer used stim to get the dog to bite full and hard.... Should be obvious
4. Coming up and under the sleeve.....has nothing to do with the stress it took to get this dog to engage in the first place..... E collar outs for sure!
5. At 30 seconds the dog is showing involuntary bouncing.... The famous "double paw stress".... Just poor e collar use!
6. The baying technique the dog shows after the bite..... Ecollar torture for sure, p
*my guess is it was a tri tronics collar that you couldn't really "dial in the stim level"*

I'm right!!! Just visit my website or ask the LE officers who have come to my seminars.... LMAO


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