# PPD certification?



## Skip Morgart

Are there any national organizations that certify PPD's?


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## Mike Scheiber

Skip Morgart said:


> Are there any national organizations that certify PPD's?


What would the requirements be seems there are many perceptions of what a PPD is and what there temperament should be


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## Anne Vaini

Would you want one??!


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## Howard Knauf

Not that I'm aware of. Anyway, having a PPD should be like carrying a concealed firearm....no one needs to know its there until it's used.

Howard


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## Emilio Rodriguez

Skip Morgart said:


> Are there any national organizations that certify PPD's?


Why? *** mod delete off-topic response ***


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## Michelle Reusser

PSA has a Protection Dog Cert, that's what I did before going for the PSA1.


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## Skip Morgart

I was talking to a good PPD trainer the other day. He said he thought there was one someplace in the US, but he wasn't sure. It was just a simple question. **** mod delete more off-topic stuff ** * Now, back to my original simple question.


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## Skip Morgart

Michelle Kehoe said:


> PSA has a Protection Dog Cert, that's what I did before going for the PSA1.


 
Thanks Michelle. Are there others?


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## Jerry Lyda

Yes, APPDA: American Protection Patrol Dog Assoc. www.appdak9.com

Where have ya'll been?


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## Mo Earle

What about SDA- a lot of people I know are starting to move toward that direction with their PPD's-not sure if it is a "national certification". As far as sport for the PPD's- PSA and K9-pro sports have been around awhile and give the dogs a pretty good test of obedience, endurance and bite work in protection style scenarios.


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## Howard Knauf

Learn something new every day.


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## Skip Morgart

Of the PPD people/trainers here, do you take the time to have the dogs certified thru any of those agencies mentioned? Is it important to you? Do you think trainers should have some level of certification?Do homeowner insurance companies take this into account? Just my opinion here, but with today's public suing everybody for just a growl from a neighbor's dog, and most homeowner's insurance companies not covering homeowners if their dogs have done any bitework training, I've just seen a lot of adverse pressure on all of us that do any kind of bitework. I think it's great to have a dog that will alert to anything strange outside my house at night...but I keep a loaded S+W in a quick-open combination box to stop anything serious if really needed. Just my opinion again, and I've always been interested in PPD (still have that old red (I think) cover Koehler Method of Guard Dog Training from over 30 years ago somewhere...and before anyone says it, I know a lot of his methods were stupid), but it just seems to me that a PPD is a huge liability these days. I'm just trying to start an informative discussion here. In what situations is a PPD needed? I know a cop here that had a really good PPD, and he and the dog were always part of the security detail when any presidents were visiting the area, so I agree they have their place. For those of you that train for real-life, do you also spend the time to have the dog differentiate on who should be bit if an altercation takes place and the the perp is on top of you and you are on the ground? We've probably all heard the stories (and seen the videos here) of the dog naturally going for whoever is on the bottom. I've typed more here than I initially thought I would, but it's an area of dog training that has always interested me, I just wonder if it's worth all the risks involved, and if it is, then is some level of certification a good idea?


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## Emilio Rodriguez

Like I didn't know that this is where this thread was going from post one.. What a load of thinly veiled crap. If anyone had read some of your attacks on real protection dog owners they'd know exactly where you're coming from. I believe if you had it your way and could come up with legislature that would make a distinction between your sport and real dog work you'd try to get it banned. Fortunately the undeniable usefulness of PSD work stands in the way of that. Although there was a time I believe when that was not so accepted either. If you knew anything about your sport you'd know that schutzhund means Protection Dog and that from it's inception schutzhund was never meant to be the travesty that people like you have made it. Schutzhund was the most basic test for the capabilities of a good protection dog. A good GSD should go through those exercises with minimal training and that would only be the foundation for making a real working dog out of it.

I like tough confident dogs and I choose to own one. It's much less likely that my confident dog even with bite training will bite someone for no good reason than the weak nerved fear biters that are found all over the place and are cause for the vast majority of dog on human bites. Where is the common sense in this world when people who play pretend biting games with their dogs can criticize others who make use of a dog in a way that has been acceptable throughout the history of civilization. Especially now the way crime is.

You criticize training dogs for protection too much and manage to create some legislation against it, then all you'll get is people buying big intimidating naturally aggressive dogs. God do I love common sense cultures where if someone sees a big dog in your yard they assume the responsibility to not go there.


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## Mo Earle

Skip, I do train my dogs and compete in the various sports.I have 10, 5 gsd's and 5 mals. Most of my dogs are "sport" dogs,and would look for the equipment- but I do have a GSD and a Mal, that without a question will protect for real. I worked with the Mal in K9 Security in a millionares housing project in Palm Beach, but did also compete with him in some of the sport venues- ASR, PSA for example- he likes to bite. The GSD, I have not put him in the "sport" stuff, but train him. I am now looking at PSA again for another one of my Mals, but also looking very closely at SDA. A lot of insurances discriminate against certain working breeds, and don't want to know that you are training your dogs to bite. All of our dogs have obtained their CGC- it was an easy certificate for them to obtain after being involved in the difficult obedience of French Ring and PSA for example- but Canine Good Citizen speaks volumes just in the title. 
As far as trainers, my main objective is that they can safely catch a dog, without causing the dog injury, and can apply different levels of pressure that is needed for the individual dog. 
As you keep a loaded S/W available, but safe- you must do the same with your dogs. My dogs that have learned the palisade wall in French Ring and Belgian Ring-have toppers on their kennels- so if I am not able to supervise them, I know they are safely contained. My protection dogs that are in the house and run the property are that, protection dogs. I have signs on the gates, my gate is locked, so if someone still choses to enter, I have the right to defend my property and myself , the same I would have the right to shoot them. If they get past the dogs, that is what they would encounter next, because I would be scared to death and in fear of my life. I don't think training for these venues is the problem, it is what you do with the dog and how responsible you are that will make the difference. IMO


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## Michelle Reusser

SOME PPD's may be a liability. I don't believe mine is.


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## Emilio Rodriguez

Michelle, I looked at the video in your sig. I like the dog he's got good intensity, looks like a serious dog. What exactly are you doing there with him? I understood some of the corrections but others by the second decoy towards the end I didn't. Was he stimulating the dog into barking with the leash tugs? I've never seen that done before if that's the case. Maybe it's something else entirely. Overall looks like the dog wants to bite too much and you want him barking, but if this is some sort of exercise I don't understand what this translates into as far as a real situation. BTW is that a girl decoy? Wow!


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## Steve Strom

Emilio, I know why you feel the way you do but I think on this board some of what Skip is bringing up could be a good discussion worth reading. Different people here that can speak from experience.


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## Michelle Reusser

Yes he was trying to teach him a rythmic bark. That was the first day of us teaching a bark and hold. The dog had a sit silent guard and we changed it up. The dog was wanting to bite because she was moving in and out and up until then, the decoys stopped all movement when he was to out or outed. Movement before was, OK bite. Just teaching new rules to his game but he picked it up quickly. Yes the girl decoy is my TD's daughter 17 at the time, she just had a birthday last week, the big 1 8.


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## Michelle Reusser

Emilio, if you go under the video to the others and watch the 3 B&H videos from right to left that is the order they were taken. You will see the dog progress and how the decoys teach it using the long line, moving into his zone and back out. They started off with a bite after 1 or 2 barks and progressed to longer barking sessions. His biggest issue is with barking, he's not natural barker. Never heard him bark until he was 9 months old in his kennel. This video was a couppe months ago and the dog is just over 2yo. He's now capable of doing this of leash without biting the decoy when sent to guard.I will have to get some new video soon.


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## Emilio Rodriguez

Michelle, I recognized what's going on because I'm going through something similar with my dog. He wanted to eat the decoy from day one, with gear or civil, and I have a hard time holding him. No barking from him throughout all this. I didn't want to teach him to bark the SCH route because he'd still be in prey. I needed to get a strong aggressive bark out of him. I managed to do this by putting him on an elevated platform, in my case the steps and the platform that is in front of the entrance way to some houses. The concept is probably the same as table training. I'm working the dog on a loose leash and the bark is sweeet! And this is a rott, many times it's hard to get them to bark.

I'll check out your other videos.


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## Dwyras Brown

Emilio, sound pretty much like table training to me.


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## Bob Scott

It's a choice some like and some don't.
Let's not get into that discussion again!!!


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Can we discuss how many wannabes would be out of business if there was a decent cert level ???

How about the silliness of a "real" dog. Can we talk about that stupid shit again ??

How about "live bites" can we talk about that again ???


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## Skip Morgart

Emilio Rodriguez said:


> Like I didn't know that this is where this thread was going from post one.. What a load of thinly veiled crap. If anyone had read some of your attacks on real protection dog owners they'd know exactly where you're coming from......


 
*MOD EDIT* I have a lot of respect for real protection dog owners. It's not about my sport vs protection dogs. There are also lot of SchH trainers out there that I wish would find another sport. I'm just saying that the certification helps eliminate SOME of the issues in my sport, and I don't understand why the word certification should strike fear into your heart. I didn't know there was certification for PPD, and I was glad to hear there was. I don't like BSL that is attacking our ownership and affects BOTH our venues. I just thought some certification might eliminate some of the issues that affect us both.


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## Jerry Lyda

Just so that most can be familiar with the certs that APPDA does, you can go to www.appdak9.com and read the rules for entery level and for PPD-1.


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## Skip Morgart

Jerry Lyda said:


> Just so that most can be familiar with the certs that APPDA does, you can go to www.appdak9.com and read the rules for entery level and for PPD-1.


 
Jerry-

I saw the Georgia event listed on that site. Are there any others in the planning stage (maybe closer to Ohio?). Myself and some friends are interested.


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## Skip Morgart

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Can we discuss how many wannabes would be out of business if there was a decent cert level ???
> 
> How about the silliness of a "real" dog. Can we talk about that stupid shit again ??
> 
> How about "live bites" can we talk about that again ???


 Three interesting questions.

Just my opinion:

The first would probably be a good thing (but that goes for any venue, not just ppd).

For the second, are you saying you don't think there are any (or very few) "real" dogs (depending on what that term means to you).

For the third, what is the controversy you are referring to regarding "live bites"?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

The whole discussion of real dogs gets silly when you look at how many of these dogs actually do anything in their lifetime. Whenever I read about a dog doing the job, it is untrained, and some off breed. LOL

I have trained enough dogs to know that it is what is inside the dog, and no amount of training is gonna fix a cur. So whenever I hear "real" I just think of the poor dog that has this guy as an owner.

They are all real dogs by definition. Not like we are walking about with Scooby Doo by our side. 

For me, the last thing I want is a live bite, and that would be defined as the dog actually having to bite someone to protect me. However, live bites have been defined in other ways, once it was defined here as a accidental bite in training. I wonder what the heck someone was doing to get to the point where the dog actually had to bite someone. In my experience, the owner was being a jackass, and someone got nipped.


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## Emilio Rodriguez

There are cultures and places where a dog bites a person under justifiable circumstances (and sometimes not) and a big deal is not made about it. A good friend of mine and an excellent trainer decoy is from Trinidad. Working security at events over there real bites happen all the time. The dogs get bottles and everything else thrown at them. The dogs must be serious to withstand this kind of pressure. I also have friends from Russia and there's tolerance for dog bites there too. It probably has to do with litigation which is so common in the US but doesn't exist for this sort of thing in those countries. Of course in the US a person with a decent income can live in a place where trouble is less likely to find them and avoid the necessity for a serious dog. Even so there are people who for one reason or another have a real need. Women who were sexually assaulted, business people who must move around with valuables. I know a family who has a jewelery store and they keep a dog in the store, the dog once thwarted a robbery during business hours. 

Words are so people can talk. If it wasn't for all the sport training going on maybe there wouldn't be a need to draw a distinction between bites. As it is when someone portrays their sport dog as a protection dog and I speak of my dog as a protection dog I must make a distinction. I do so by saying that my dog is a serious or real protection dog. Many times it doesn't matter what words I use because when people have never seen a serious dog they don't understand WTF I'm talking about anyways.

With some dogs it's obvious they'll bite for real, others need a real bite to be sure. Some dogs will get confused the first time they bite flesh. The more real fights the dog is involved in, provided it wins, the better fighter it will become.

If this is just a word game then there's no point talking about it.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: With some dogs it's obvious they'll bite for real, others need a real bite to be sure.

OK, so you made my point for me again. It is the dog.

In THIS country, which is were "I" reside (United States of America) you could go through many dogs, like your whole entire life and not need any of them to be "REEEEAAL".

If you cannot see what your dog is, and you have a serious need for a PPD, you are screwed. I see many many professional athletes with dogs that are not going to do the job, as well as a lot of "PPD" peoples clients.

They have no idea how useless this dog is gonna be. 

It is all a word game here, until you have worked with someone in person, and for a while, it will stay that way.

It is like asking the waiter how hot (spicy) something is. His version is probably not your version.


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## Emilio Rodriguez

I'm sorry Jeff I lost track of what we're talking about here.

But in case it has something to do with dogs biting (not sure about that peepeedee stuff)..

There are SERIOUS dogs that will bite for REAL and there are the rest.

You don't like these words. I'm kinda tired of them myself, so if you give me an alternative descriptive term for such a dog I'll consider using it. If not I'll just have to certify my dog with one of the aforementioned organizations and post a link to their website every time I mention how bitchin' my dog is. I think this is what Morguerat was after in the first place.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

SO if my dog is not serious, but bites the **** out of you, does that cancel his "real" status ???? LOL


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## Michelle Reusser

Jeff, your making my head hurt!


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## Emilio Rodriguez

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> SO if my dog is not serious, but bites the **** out of you, does that cancel his "real" status ???? LOL


You mean like if this is your dog and he bites me? That's as real as it gets!


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## Chris Michalek

The only dog bite that ever caused me to get stitches is a pug that looks just like that. They are as real as is comes. 



Emilio Rodriguez said:


> You mean like if this is your dog and he bites me? That's as real as it gets!


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## Skip Morgart

Emilio Rodriguez said:


> You mean like if this is your dog and he bites me? That's as real as it gets!


 
But is he certified?:razz: :razz: :razz: :razz:


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## Michelle Reusser

Now THAT would scare the bageezes outta me. I hate pugs and I'm ascared of clowns. You guys suck!


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## Julie Blanding

I have a couple of questions about PSA? 

1. Is it primarily a sport?
2. Why do they teach the dogs to target the inner arm?

I have only seen a few pictures of the dogs biting legs. I see the decoys wearing full suits, but A LOT of the video shows scratch pants and a jacket only. Is there some sort of program where they teach them to target upper body then transition to lower? 

TIA
Julie


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## Michelle Reusser

It IS a sport.

Where you target is all preference. Inner arm is safe I guess and easier to drive a dog. Luc has a pit in club he works on legs. Bottom line is, the judges don't care where the bite is but it shouldn't be the ankle, wrist or anything that looks weak. We have crotch biters, chest hitters and my dog likes armpit. We just tried the flee last week and he hit center of the back way high, like an inch from the suit collar, so we adjusted that and tought my dog a safe place to target from behind.


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## Emilio Rodriguez

The inner arm is a devastating bite, very painful. The dog immediately takes one whole arm out of commission and because he's in close there's not much leverage you can develop with the free arm to hit it, if you could get your brain do command your limbs at all to do anything in such a situation. Most people however will put their arms between them and the dog so the arms are likely to get bit first, hence the schutzhund way.


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## Michelle Reusser

Forgot to add, with all of the variables in PSA the dog has to adjust and may not get an arm on entry, so flexability is good. A dog that will only bite arm wont go far. We have had Sch people trial for fun and they may ask for an arm presentation for a points deduction.


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## Julie Blanding

Michelle Kehoe said:


> We have had Sch people trial for fun and they may ask for an arm presentation for a points deduction.


 I'm sure if ppl trained their SchH dogs they were allowed to bite other places, presenting the arm wouldn't be necessary. But, since it's for fun only, I can see why they don't bother.

As far as the only arm biting dog not going far, that is why I originally asked the question about targeting. 

I think their is a lot of unfair judgment put on schutzhund dogs. You can't expect dogs to do things they were not trained to do.

Just as I wouldn't expect a PSA dog to go out and pass a SchH 3 track, I don't expect a SchH dog to bite legs or the back if they don't know it is acceptable.

sorry for derailing the thread a bit,
Julie


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: The inner arm is a devastating bite, very painful. The dog immediately takes one whole arm out of commission and because he's in close there's not much leverage you can develop with the free arm to hit it, if you could get your brain do command your limbs at all to do anything in such a situation. Most people however will put their arms between them and the dog so the arms are likely to get bit first, hence the schutzhund way

The inner arm is super easy to esquive the dog so you can kick the **** out of him.

Or, you take a couple of steps forward and just kick the ever lovin **** out of the stupid dog, game over. Then you get to watch him run about and seizure. Good times.

I will take a knife any day over a dog.


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## Emilio Rodriguez

Or if the kicking fails you can always grab each of the dog's forelegs and pull outwards thus snapping his breast bone. Never fails to disable even the toughest dogs.


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## Michelle Reusser

Apparently you have never made contact with MY dogs head Jeff. It's a concrete block, I kicked it once full out and limped around with a bruised ankle/foot for 2 weeks. He bit his own tongue and had blood dripping out of his mouth as he stood there, with an idiotic look on his face (like what are you hopping and screaming about for) waiting for me to give the soccer ball another go. Game over. Bastard dog needs to stand back and not try to get the ball before I even kick it.


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## Emilio Rodriguez

Never try to kick a dog.


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## Dan Long

Michelle I had the same experience. When my dog was about 10 months old we were playing with his football in the yard. I went to punt the ball, and he lunged for it just as it came off my foot. I kicked him full force right in the jaw. His tooth went thru my shoe and into my skin. I'm on the ground in pain while he ran after the ball, brought it back, and dropped it for another round. I suppose if you kicked a dog in the ribs enough times you might have some success, but a head shot? Probably not!

As far as that pull the front legs apart to snap the breastbone- I call BS. If the dog is already on you on a bicep bite one arm is useless. If he's not on you and you grab his legs he's going to bite your hands. I don't see many people being able to take that pain long enough to pull his legs apart. You'd have to be a brute to do it too. I'm a pretty big guy, 250lbs and a competitive weightlifter, and I don't think I'd be strong enough to do that. The motion itself, pulling your 2 hands apart, is not one where you have a lot of leverage.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Pretty sure he was joking.

You guys all have sissy feet.  I am punting your dog right the **** back at you. LOL Won't be in the head either.[-X


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## Dan Long

I guess all that commie kickball you played toughened your feet up huh Jeff!


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## Dan Williams

UKC has a SDA program that will test the dogs. Civil threat,bites, and control work is required. I have competed in several of these events , both as a decoy and a handle/team. I enjoy the control work. Dogs with strong defense drives seem to initiate quicker with little stimulation.

As for upper body vs. lower body bites. Emphasis the past few years has gone to the upper body for several reasons. When dogs were initially missing leg bites, mals for example would twist and turn their bodies into dangerous positions while flying by the decoy's legs in another attemped to engage. This resulted in many neck injuries to the dogs.

Upper body bites create more of a target for the dog. It also showcases more of the "up close and personal" work.

My male rottweiler is a service dog that works in SDA, Schutzhund, and Obedience. I am a real estate appraiser that does quite a bit of work with vacant repossed homes in difficult urban environment (i.e.
Detroit). In my work,you never know who if anyone may be in the house, or around your vehicle,especially in the summer months. A trained working K-9 with certification, is far superior to a concealed weapon. The K-9 will difuse 99% of all potential problems.

I think the general public will be seeing more certified PPD dogs in the future.


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## Emilio Rodriguez

Good post Dan. Did you ever have to turn your dog on yet on the street? Notice I didn't say for real so that Jeff won't get upset.


> As far as that pull the front legs apart to snap the breastbone- I call BS.


It's an old myth right up there with doberman's brains are too big for their skulls so they go crazy and bite their owners. Just think if you're reaching to grab the dog's forelegs where your face is in relation to the dog.

BTW the never try to kick the dog in my previous post is a link to a funny vid.


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## Dan Williams

Emilio,

Answer: Yes, Last year in a repo house in detroit. I announced when entering, cut the dog loose for building search. found a squatter/crackhead/someone who was not authorized to be in the residence. Dog had him backed into closet doing a bark and hold. The rest was a call off, step out, and escort out of the house.

A couple of other "real incidents" around my vehicle involving 2-3 other individuals, and loud threatening language. Having a "switch" is helpful, but the dog would work independently if required. Like I mentioned in my previous post, 95% of dog work is the deterent. Dogs are different than people, they will not argue-, serious, confident, working dogs have a very quick way of getting their point across. The majority of people, in an unaltered state, would choose not to take on an agressive dog that is being pro active.

Much of this has to do with the dog and level of training, whether reactive, defensive, or even passive
bite training. The intensity levels you bring to a finished dog should be greater than what you may see on the street. Alertness of the dog is something we all desire regardless of the dog sport.


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## Emilio Rodriguez

What a great strategic use of a civilian's dog. I take it you're pretty sure of the hold and bark having done some scenario work in just that kind of setting. What kind of liability is there if the dog bites on find in the situation you described?

What do you mean by this?


dan williams said:


> Much of this has to do with the dog and level of training, whether reactive, defensive, or even passive bite training.


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## Emilio Rodriguez

Michelle Kehoe said:


> Emilio, if you go under the video to the others and watch the 3 B&H videos from right to left that is the order they were taken. You will see the dog progress and how the decoys teach it using the long line, moving into his zone and back out. They started off with a bite after 1 or 2 barks and progressed to longer barking sessions. His biggest issue is with barking, he's not natural barker. Never heard him bark until he was 9 months old in his kennel. This video was a couppe months ago and the dog is just over 2yo. He's now capable of doing this of leash without biting the decoy when sent to guard.I will have to get some new video soon.


I watched your vids Michelle, again nice dog. Are you teaching the H&B as an exercise for SCH or something else or is this mainly a way to teach the dog to bark/show aggression?


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## Michelle Reusser

Emilio Rodriguez said:


> I watched your vids Michelle, again nice dog. Are you teaching the H&B as an exercise for SCH or something else or is this mainly a way to teach the dog to bark/show aggression?


Everyone says he has a nice bark, so we put it in the guard. A guard is needed in PSA, choice of style is at owners discretion. Once I started getting more control, I didn't think the barking would be an issue or cause him to get dirty so I said lets do it. (really I did it to annoy Jeff) He's a real fan of the H&B. LOL 

In the end it brought a little more out of my dog, so I am glad I agreed to do it.

Thank You for the compliment.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: 
As for upper body vs. lower body bites. Emphasis the past few years has gone to the upper body for several reasons. When dogs were initially missing leg bites, mals for example would twist and turn their bodies into dangerous positions while flying by the decoy's legs in another attemped to engage. This resulted in many neck injuries to the dogs.

Where did this come from ??? They are doing esquives in the SDA thing ???

Why would the guys be esquiving the dog ??? I don't get it.


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## Jerry Lyda

Why teach a hold and bark in PP? You should teach the call off. If I send the dog he better bite.

A bad guy will, most likely, never see a hold and bark. He will be running at you or away, at which time you can call the dog off. I like the hold and bark in sport but not on the streets, not the place for it.


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## Emilio Rodriguez

I trained a dog to do a sort of H&B at heel. This was almost 20 years ago and I was just seeing what I can do but the logic was I want the dog near me until the last moment rather than at the end of the leash with me fighting to hold it back. The dog would bite if someone came within about 5ft. Eventually he did this off leash, he was a serious dog.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I remember guys doing that. LOL


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## Emilio Rodriguez

Sheeet.. I thought I invented it. They must've seen me doing it!


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## Khoi Pham

Julie Blanding said:


> I'm sure if ppl trained their SchH dogs they were allowed to bite other places, presenting the arm wouldn't be necessary. But, since it's for fun only, I can see why they don't bother.
> 
> As far as the only arm biting dog not going far, that is why I originally asked the question about targeting.
> 
> I think their is a lot of unfair judgment put on schutzhund dogs. You can't expect dogs to do things they were not trained to do.
> 
> Just as I wouldn't expect a PSA dog to go out and pass a SchH 3 track, I don't expect a SchH dog to bite legs or the back if they don't know it is acceptable.
> 
> sorry for derailing the thread a bit,
> Julie


You can retrain SchH dog to bite the inner arm, legs, it is not very hard to do if your dog enjoy biting. (-:
BTW my dog PSA dog can track a SchH 3 too so it is a 2 way street.


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## Dan Williams

Jeff, 

Your question on the esquives and leg bites. These are typically quick closer bites where the dog has not built up the speed as they do on a longer bite. As for the bark and hold, I would say it is more modified for street work. The dog will not just sit in front of the individual similar to sport work. This can be taught thru training. 

There are many levels of pressure associated with any type of protection work. Many of which get beyond the prey work. Having skilled helper/decoy work is essential in tapping and capping strong fighting drive while still having the dog under control. Intensity is a relative word - what is strong work by some, may be considered average for others. I have had dogs where we broke down in their initial defense drive, some would say into avoidance, only to rebuild the dog over the next 6 months- 1 year. I believe the dogs become much stronger mentally, and this is also shown in their physical work. This is not to be confused with maturity.

My .02, been at this since 1984 and have been fortunate to have seen and worked quite a few dogs from PP, UKC-SDA, Ring,KNPV, Schutzhund, and Service Dogs.


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## Emilio Rodriguez

dan williams said:


> I have had dogs where we broke down in their initial defense drive, some would say into avoidance, only to rebuild the dog over the next 6 months- 1 year. I believe the dogs become much stronger mentally, and this is also shown in their physical work. This is not to be confused with maturity.


You're saying it like there's merit in this yet it's something we all try to avoid. Did you push the dog too far by accident or are you saying you do that on purpose? Maybe what you construe as avoidance was confusion?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote : mals for example would twist and turn their bodies into dangerous positions while flying by the decoy's legs in another attemped to engage. This resulted in many neck injuries to the dogs.

Quote: Your question on the esquives and leg bites. These are typically quick closer bites where the dog has not built up the speed as they do on a longer bite.

Lost me. WHy is the dog flying by from close up ???


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## Julie Blanding

Khoi Pham said:


> You can retrain SchH dog to bite the inner arm, legs, it is not very hard to do if your dog enjoy biting. (-:
> BTW my dog PSA dog can track a SchH 3 too so it is a 2 way street.


You're right on that. I agree. That is what I was trying to get at. I'm sure you trained your dog to track as well 

Julie


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## Dan Williams

Emilio,

This particular dogs main drive was defense. It was a combination of stick issues along with wanting to shut down. You can "condition" this type of dog, "build up confidence" and "get by" in the training. No there is not merit in breaking a dog down and then making him stronger. It is a very difficult choice and something I would not advise for inexperienced trainers. I have put together many of others problem dogs from poor training.

With this dog there was a very well laid out system on the rebuild. His rehabilittion was 3 months tied out just letting him watch. Levels of agitation went from eye contact, frontal positioning, to finally loud civil.
All of this happened without any bites. I had been the 4th owner of this dog, he had bitten several others, was sharp, could not touched by strangers, the list goes on.

The next step was suit work, with and without muzzle. This did quite a bit for confidence, but also kept the dog in defense drive longer. From there, stickwork was reintroduce along with chairs, milkjugs, and other objects. The switch on this dog became very good. No battle on outs, little work required on call off's or call backs. I did spend a fair amount of time sending him on passive helpers, and hidden bitework.

The dogs head became very clear about his level of involvement in each excercise. Again, this dog started out as a medium drive dog, that worked in defense, and a little sharp.

What we ended up with was a above average working dog. Trust levels and confidence levels have went up and it is evident with is interaction with people. He is now a much friendlier dog in a social setting.
I have put 6 various titles on this dog within the past 13 months. This was from a dog who could not pass a CGC when I first got him because the evaluator could not touch his feet, and he wanted to eat someone running by me and yelling. Throw in having the dog with you 20 hrs. a day (I'm self employed), and the bonding gets strong. As for training 4x a week, conditioning 3 x a week.

Good luck with your dogs!


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