# Gotta question



## Misty Wegner (May 22, 2015)

OK, so my girl is coming on 3 in May. She is environmentally sound for the most part. She doesn't flinch in gun fire) keeps working her trail if on one or blinks and does nothing if with me), fireworks she watches like everyone else, had snow mobiles roar right by her while working a trail and she kept working until I stopped her so she wouldn't get hit accidentally, she will work through a crowd of people no problem... But... 

She is not one for individual affection from new people, which I am OK, but not OK with her barking at them if they show intent to pet her. Yes, I stop them from doing so, but people are in general, dumb, and even on a trail urban wise, I see people reaching out to pet her as she goes by them.. Usually a single bark at them is all it takes if I haven't been able to stop them beforehand.. She has a deep deep deep bark that I've had multiple LE tell me they love because it is the bark that makes bad guys pee their pants and come out hands raised.. But not good for SAR.. 

She is still a bit protective of the car.. I mean if I am standing there talking to someone and they approach a little too close she barks.. I know discernment is coming and I see it slowly happening, but while I don't have a problem with her barking in the car if I am not there or someone is attacking me (lol) I would prefer she accept that I say it is ok for people to be there.. She will hush when I tell her to, so the car is a small deal compared to barking or being 'sharp' when someone wants to pet her. 

If people are polite, and wait for her to make the greeting she is ok.. The day of the snowmobiles, she came up on a group of people by their snow mobiles, most helmets on. She gave pause, but a word of 'find him' and she moved on ignoring them. She took the goodies from the stranger who had hid for her (a snow mobile trail) and he pet her head while she ate. When he got up and thought about petting her again, she gave a bark and left him, it wasn't her usual 'MANNERS' bark to those infringing on her space, but more of an over the shoulder bark. She met all the snow mobilers but no one wanted to pet her, haha.. 

So, question... What can I do to help her get more comfortable with introductions.. Or should I? She is a SAR dog but not a lab or golden, she is a strong GSD so I expect and like the aloofness, but the bark is disconcerting and I don't want to add stress to a possibly charges situation.. Ya know?


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

it’s been quite a few years now, but at least on paper this sounded similar to my current dog. 

of course since i don’t do SAR, i’m not as concerned as you might need to be, since at times i see no problem with my dog barking at strangers who get up close to him without checking with me first.

but i don’t want him barking at an approaching person who is not trying to confront or interact with him and it used to be a problem, so here’s the basic plan i used :

using the "3D" approach....

went out in public. where people were walking around, but not highly concongested areas. i started tieing him out and after a few minutes I moved away from him. 

started out with about 4-5 ft of separation. enough that i couldn’t reach down but close enough that he knew he was still “with me”, if you catch my drift. 

then i pretended to ignore him but still gave intermittent OB (downs, sits, stands, putting his head down, etc). whenever i knew someone was gonna pass by close, i’d give him a ‘good’ marker when he ignored them. right after the ‘good’, i’d go over, untie and quickly reward with a yes. one rep - end of drill - then move to another spot.

after he repeated a few of these single reps, i would wait until two people had passed that he ignored before ending the set.

then i started doing it in more crowded areas. and added more 'meets' and distance from me when he was tied.

then i would do it in front of a convenience store where i could go inside but still watch him but quickly walk out if someone approached that i didn’t like. we have a lot of those kinds of stores around here.

key points in this process was increasing time and distance, but also watching out for people who approached so that i could let them know i was training and that he was not just tied out waiting to be petted, etc 
- many times i felt like i was teaching other people not to pet a tied up dog, so patience will be required !!

my goal was to make him learn he was still “with me” and i was controlling the interactions even when he wasn’t physically with me

- (maybe) one difference between your situation and mine is that i will still allow him to bark at people i did NOT want getting into our space and trying to force themselves on us. easy to set up those situations because those kind of people are obvious to me before they get close //LOL//
- but he knows the difference now

this worked for me. doing a lot of this made him ignore people who passed by and he will now even tolerate (stay quiet) when people jog by close, so i consider it a successful method for my dog the way i want to handle him……i still do it occasionally for proofing, but not nearly as often as i used to. but whenever he has been tied out. i ALWAYS give him a BIG party when i get back to him.

if he DID bark i never corrected until he had done it well for a couple months. then, if he barked, i walked over and gave him a quick hard fast POP and took him away and CONSTANTLY ignored him for about ten min. over about the first year this happened at least 5-6 times but prob less than ten, hard to remember.
- you WILL get your share of two legged ankle biters....need to get on the parents and not be shy or PC with them. the way you handle it is important in my opinion. at first you may feel like an ass but your dog WILL notice and appreciate it 

this separation/tie out method worked a LOT better (for me) than just trying to control him when he was on lead and next to me moving around. that approach never saw much progress.
…BUT, with that said, i didn’t start this until he was non reactive when walking thru crowds, so i don’t know if this (prep) stage would be necessary for you and your dog.

but maybe a similar approach might help your dog ??

a “lesson learned” for me that might apply to you :
- when i firrst started, i tied him out with a very short lead. this was wrong for him. it put too much constant tension on the lead. maybe it made him think i was trying to teach him an object guard //rotflmao//
- it worked MUCH better when he had at least four feet of lead to the post.

also, i would make sure the problem is just him being unsocial and not being a resource guarder. there IS a difference here and from what i’ve read from your posts you seem like you would recognize the difference right away. if the behavior is at all connected to resource guarding i would take an entirely different approach.

- also, the dog needs to be comfortable being tied out so you might need to start it somewhere other than in public since some people never tie out their dogs. 
- this dog had no probs with that because i would often tie him out when i was working with another handler. he knew it just meant “stay put”…. i’ll be Baaack 

for what it’s worth, i also used an *Ecollar this way, but he was always too Ecollar savvy for me to feel it was doing much good. 
*note.....a mistake i made early on with Ecollars; not using it enough in NON-training situations… my bad :-(

i laffed when you wrote the part about the hide who tried to pet again after being found. i need to tell people all the time once they have met my dog don’t expect to be “best buds” with him the next time they see him 

way more detail than you might need, but for me, details are important….at least it’s a method i’ve used that you might wanna try on……ymmv 

getting back to your Q ….
- actually, all this rambling was not specifically tied to “introductions”, but i do have some methods about that type of interaction also. 
- and i have already posted before about that situation  MUCH EASIER than the above type of training since the handler always has 100% control of the situation


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Misty said
"She is not one for individual affection from new people, which I am OK, but not OK with her barking at them if they show intent to pet her. Yes I stop them"

Stop HER from barking!

When you proof off of food or critters on the trail then why not do the same with people?!


It's also possible that she is being possessive of "her" trail since she seems ok walking with people in general.

"I'm busy having fun, leave me alone!"


----------



## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Natural barking is base on from frustration or fear, in your case I see no frustration at all, it is generate from fear, or one would call it high in defense or low threshold for defense. You can minimize it by showing her there is nothing to fear about, have strange people feeding her, petting her, condition her to have no fear of strangers and the barking should be less.


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

MUCH easier to (1) teach a dog to bark than to (2) teach it not to.
the first is much easier than the second 

actually, fearful dogs will rarely eat treats from strangers and sometimes not even from their handlers. at least that has been my experience. it's one of the ways i evaluate how fearful they are


----------



## Misty Wegner (May 22, 2015)

Bob Scott said:..." I'm busy having fun, leave me alone!"
I have actually thought that might be a part of it on the occasional bark at someone intent on petting her while running a trail.. 

Rick, you have brought up some very interesting thoughts and things to try.. 

I don't believe it is resource guarding when on the trail, she is 30ft in front (shorter I urban) - except if it is trail resource guarding and she is 'focusing'. 

I do need her to get more comfortable being 'staked' out. I've done it before when she was younger (and eating my car when I ran another dog) and she complained at first but settled quickly. But I need to do it more often.. 

She doesn't have a problem with people petting her IF proper introduction is made.. If someone is 'rude' and just assumes a pet is their right, then a bark that turns your insides to jelly occurs. Usually it is singular and she ignores the person (who is usually a shade whiter) thereafter. So I am having difficulty in seeing this as fear, although I guess a component could be? 

She has worked a crowd of people many times with zero interest on anyone (unless running a trail)...unless they, without allowing her to introduce herself, assume the 'right' to pet her. Then the bark occurs. If she is allowed to introduce herself (sniff the person) and agrees the person is acceptable, then no bark and usually wags and friendship follow... 

For the most part, I am OK with this, although I would hate to see it get worse? Not that I expected it to.. With SAR, in general, she won't be coming up to the victim and ALLOWED much interaction. My job is to take care of her while the subject is attended to by fellow SAR. And, she is already conditioned to sit and await her treats at the subject, which can include pets - just don't get too liberal, lol.. I am just a bit perplexed at the cause of it, and if I am missing something that needs to be addressed..?


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

probably just another of my quirks but i think all dogs need to learn that being tied out sometimes is just a part of daily life and no big thing.

i'm amazed at how many dogs go stir crazy when i tell the owner to simply tie em up and walk away 

i'm as impressed with a dog tied up and calmly waiting for the owner as much as i hate dogs barking their butt off when the owner goes into a store to grab something

unless it's a laid back golden it usually requires some training


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

When I was herding with Thunder we often tied out the dogs that weren't in the field at the time.

As long as they couldn't interact with one another I don't recall any of them that didn't learn to just chill till the handler got back.


Same with doing natural earth work with terriers. 

That was a MUST to tie them out asp when one dog went to ground or it could have deadly impact on the dog caught between the dog behind it and the quarry.

Yep! learning to be on a tie out is a must!


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

hard to imagine no one has worked on this type of issue before so i hope you get some more specific ideas.

the problem as i see it, is that it requires the handler to prevent a bark from happening. once the bark happens it's too late and you're already into 'correction mode'....duh 

- when i thought about this a bit 'deeper', it seems like it requires that the handler be able to read the dog and get the point across just BEFORE the bark comes out since most people feel timing is always critical
- plus, it requires the handler to reward the dog for NOT doing a behavior it was gonna do 

bottom line....better be able to read your dog.....which is always a challenge

make sense to anyone else or am i overthinking ??


----------



## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

If this was my dog, I would plaster her harness with SAR DOG - DO NOT PET patches and keep telling people to back off. Why does she have to tolerate being touched by random strangers? Is that part of her job? The bark is a warning - will eliminating it make her escalate to biting without warning, much the same way punishing a dog for growling can do? 

As far as strangers and treats - what I have learned from reading about reactive dogs is that the treat will lure the dog out of their comfort zone, but when the treat is gone, the dog finds himself too close to something anxiety producing and may react. I don't have a lot of direct experience with that as my reactive dog had different triggers, but it makes sense to me. 

I don't know why some people feel entitled to pet every dog they see, but they do and sometimes you have to be very blunt about saying no. I am gobsmacked at times by the incredibly inappropriate things absolute strangers have done to some of my foster dogs. You are your dog's advocate and you know her better than anyone else. In the word's of Nellie McClung (Canadian suffragette) "Never explain, never retract, never apologize. Just get the thing done and let them howl"


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re : "I don't know why some people feel entitled to pet every dog they see, but they do and sometimes you have to be very blunt about saying no"
...very true

i live near a fairly big city....LOTS of people, but those kind of people are rare where i live

- people want to pet dogs because many people take their (social) dogs out and both the owner and the dog like that type of outing....so non dog owners are conditioned to think all dogs are out to be petted and played with. that's how i view the non dog owner world

i take lots of different dogs out and it's usually easy to tell people the dog is out for another reason and the dog is not a petting accessory, and when i do they give me and the dog space. end of problem. you gotta be proactive; not reactive

i DO run into some people who won't believe what i tell them and insist they should be able to pet the dog. if i'm with a customer's dog, i leave. if i'm with my dog, i'll let my dog show them by barking in their face and show them. these are usually the macho type guys who think they can make any dog lick em and love em :-(

it's usually off leash kids that are most difficult. both kids and dogs need to learn basic manners in public 

nervous or fearful dogs won't take treats in public. if they are forced to, it is handler error for misreading the dog, and in my book it's extremely bad handling :-(

- there are varying degrees a dog will or won't eat in public.....some might start to take a treat but spit it out...that is nerves too. 
- with that said, i feed dogs out in public all the time; including whole meals  
- for my work, it's been a great way to measure progress WITHOUT interacting with strangers

- i don't want to focus this thread on training using food in public....it could be a whole thread in itself but most people feel very strongly one way or the other and aren't open minded about this topic

- but if you have a dog that will be out in public and don't want it to bark at people that aren't bothering it, you need to find a way to train that basic canine good citizen manner

so i'm also interested if anyone else has any techniques they have used; whether they worked or not //LOL//


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i didn't think this thread was related to socialising a fearful dog as much as it was just looking for techniques to control unnecessary barking

since barking happens quickly it's not that easy to prevent it from happening unless you know when it's gonna come 

having the dog secured but away from the handler, while being able to watch the distractions approach, has been the only way i have been able to work on the problem

trying to boost the dog's confidence to prevent the barking when the dog is WITH the handler, like Khoi was suggesting, can certainly help, but i thought Misty was looking for ways to work on the problem when the dog was NOT with the handler
- the way she described it made me think the dog is fine when it's close to her

or maybe i'm reading her wrong //LOL//


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i will add this...it might be relevant 

when you're out in public with a dog i think it requires some people skills as well as dog skills

i don't have a lot of people skills. i tend to evaluate and judge people quickly when i'm out with a dog. if i consider the person an asshole i will usually be a bigger one 

if i think they are polite but just ignorant about dogs, i'll 'try' and be polite and teach them something. i'd like to think if i teach them something they will be less likely to be a problem for someone else with a dog who they will meet later ..... because i also think people learn the wrong stuff about dogs when they meet up with clueless owners


----------



## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

I used to do canine security. Guard and dog, me in my uniform, dog on a short leash. People would ask if the dog bites, and I would answer, "Yes, if necessary". Too often it would be followed up with, "Can I pet him?". ](*,)](*,)](*,) :roll::roll: "No, he's working."

I thought what Misty was asking about was how to handle her dog's reaction (barking) to random strangers' attempts to pet her. My thought is that if the dog works well and does her job safely for the people around her, there is no need to push her into being a social butterfly. My concern would be that focusing on that may take away from the work she is doing well. Lots of good advice here.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I look at teaching a dog NOT to bark is more about the dog connecting a correction for barking being relative to a given behavior seems to connect with them.

Example 

I used to have an issue with fence fighting. It took catching them in the act and being right there to shake the snot out of both my GSDs. 

Thunder figured out that particular area of the fence was off limits so, for him, it took 3-4 more times with a firm verbal correction to associate the whole fence line.

With uber sensitive Trooper he hardly even goes to the fence anymore but he will stand in the middle of the yard and give the occasional "woof" when the neighbor's dogs are out but no more fence fighting. 

Both learned that a simple tap on the window means stop barking.

Yes, the sometimes continue but If I show myself at the door when I tap it's over.

I doubt we could ever teach our dogs not to bark at all but then I wouldn't want to.


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re : "I doubt we could ever teach our dogs not to bark at all but then I wouldn't want to."
- so true...and somewhat irrelevant since no one else in their right mind would want to either //LOL//

but i think we CAN teach them not to bark with a properly prepared plan, persistence, proper timing and patience 

it is required for some dogs more than others and of course depends on what the owner wants or cares about. for some a problem; for others it's music to their ears 

off the wall, but i've also tried a method i read about that dates back to the WWII scout dog training...cupping and holding the dog's nose....worked fairly well but was only a reactive correction since the dog already had started barking ... but it did work and the dog started pairing the correction with cupping hands
- better than cutting vocal chords 

doesn't seem to be a common problem on the WDF so starting to think we're beating the proverbial dead horse 

maybe Misty will clarify more exactly what she wants to accomplish or just say Tx and move on


----------



## Misty Wegner (May 22, 2015)

Ok, sorry I was away.. Great responses everyone!!

To clarify.. No, I don't need my girl to be a social butterfly, nor would I want her to be.. she is a GSD and wears here breeding well. She is ok at stakeouts, although I need to work with her more so no whining or barking takes place..at all.. But she is pretty good... She would not be good having a random stranger walk up and want to pet her while she is tied... While I don't/wouldn't want that either, I may need her to be OK with that at some point in her life....

The bark usually occurs when she is with me, BUT, on a 30ft line working a trail... This happens when some yoyo sees a dog working and figures "hey, I should just go pet the 80lb (lean but muscled) sable looking GSD who looks like they are working as someone with K9 SAR UNIT plastered all over their shirt is running behind them and yelling "please don't touch her she is working!" " I am not upset at her when she barks, but the last time she did..and it is a singular "back off!" bark, made the person jump into the street...not a good thing...

The other time she may (or may not) do this, is when someone is a bit too forward in the greeting time... She is sniffing and they assume it is ok to pet... She gives a stiff, singular bark.. The way I would translate it is, "Hey buddy! I didn't say you could hug me yet.. Give me a moment to get to know you... man people are forward!" Yes, that is anthropomorphizing, but she can walk calmly through a crowd of people - no barks, no reactions.. If 'properly' introductions are made, there is never a bark.

She is not food motivated, except as her reward for finding people - then she is all about the treats and praise... So she would not just eat if someone offered her food.. This consternates people who want to give her a biscuit or treat (like at Petco or Petsmart, etc), as she usually refuses... 

I am not sure if it is insecurity that is driving the bark.. and I definitely wouldn't want to go any further... If it is insecurity..how do I help her overcome it? If it is just her being specific about her introductions (I am very wary in my space... I don't just hug people like some do, so I understand her desire to greet slowly) I don't mind as much...again, as long as it doesn't go further...

hope this helps explain... Open to ideas and suggestions  Thanks everyone!


----------



## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

rick smith said:


> re : "I don't know why some people feel entitled to pet every dog they see, but they do and sometimes you have to be very blunt about saying no"
> ...very true
> 
> i live near a fairly big city....LOTS of people, but those kind of people are rare where i live
> ...


how ironic...


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re : "i DO run into some people who won't believe what i tell them and insist they should be able to pet the dog. if i'm with a customer's dog, i leave. if i'm with my dog, i'll let my dog show them by barking in their face and show them. these are usually the macho type guys who think they can make any dog lick em and love em “

---- RE : how ironic…….
don't know exactly what you meant but if it's this :
(ironic : happening in a way contrary to what is expected, and typically causing wry amusement because of this.)

- most of the time they take it well. it’s a learning experience, lesson learned and all is good.

- but there have been a few times when they got pissed and mutter i have an aggressive dog. then i show a vid clip of him playing tug with a six year old girl who visits our house to see him and they just shake their head and walk off

- somebody here once said opinions are often like concrete.....once formed they'll never change. SO true when it comes to dog stuff


----------



## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

rick smith said:


> re : "i DO run into some people who won't believe what i tell them and insist they should be able to pet the dog. if i'm with a customer's dog, i leave. if i'm with my dog, i'll let my dog show them by barking in their face and show them. these are usually the macho type guys who think they can make any dog lick em and love em “
> 
> ---- RE : how ironic…….
> don't know exactly what you meant but if it's this :
> ...


the irony is you accuse people of being the "macho type" who want to pet your dog in spite of your warning. then you make your dog bark at them to prove your point. seems as if you might fall into the category of "macho type" in that scenario.



rick smith said:


> - but there have been a few times when they got pissed and mutter i have an aggressive dog. then i show a vid clip of him playing tug with a six year old girl who visits our house to see him and they just shake their head and walk off


c'mon. really? i'd be willing to bet this has never happened. so you're telling me that after you get your to bark at them and they accuse you of having an aggressive dog, you sit them down next to you and said aggressive dog and you proceed to show them a video? cool story. it fits the tale you're trying to spin. odds of it ever having happened? i'd guess somewhere between slim and none and slim just left town...


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

was hoping it was not me who you were referring to as being macho 

u could call me an asshole  that might be more appropriate; but there are times when i feel the need to demo a point to someone who is clearly ignorant about dogs. maybe they learn, maybe they don't...i really don't care either way

yes, i've absolutely shown that vid a few times....all i need to do is hand em my Iphone, OR i tell em to take a load off ... my dog is under MY control and well trained. he TOTALLY ignores them

and like i said, most people get it right away. it's my dog and my privilege to be an asshole when i feel it's needed. i train dogs for a living and i'd rather be in teacher mode and i've had LOTS of people meet me when i'm out with a dog and walk away thanking me, so 'most' of the time i'm social

different strokes ... those are mine but don't consider myself the macho type at all ....maybe 20 years ago when i was still on active duty it was a different story


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

just so you know what an asshole i can be...

when i see little kids running amuck from their parents chasing pigeons or feral cats while their parents are siitting on their butts laffing, i'll sometimes walk over and let my dog charge at em a bit...i make sure the parents see what's going on and then go over and talk to the parents

macho or just assholish ??? 
don't care  the kids get my point VERY clearly and realize they need to respect animals, so i'm a happy camper


----------



## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

rick smith said:


> just so you know what an asshole i can be...
> 
> when i see little kids running amuck from their parents chasing pigeons or feral cats while their parents are siitting on their butts laffing, i'll sometimes walk over and let my dog charge at em a bit...i make sure the parents see what's going on and then go over and talk to the parents
> 
> ...


lots of other descriptive words i can think of including those two.


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re : "lots of other descriptive words i can think of including those two."
...feel free so please do 

kids being kids never get my attention.
out of control kids with lazy parents causing problems DO. just like dogs behaving in a similar manner. how much attention depends on how much of a problem they are causing

hope you're also not the type who calls the cops when a parent disciplines their kid in public //LOL//


----------



## Misty Wegner (May 22, 2015)

Back on topic ...

Anybody have any response to my clarification of the situation (see a couple posts above)? Just curious if I should be more ttentive to the issue, or she will outgrow it, or to just leave it be nd maintain...


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

well, if you didn't think it was a problem you probably would not have asked for suggestions of how to work on it 
- absolutely no one can tell you if YOUR DOG will outgrow it....they can only tell you what THEIR DOG outgrew 
......in my experience i would say no, especially if it is self-satisfying and will condition itself to repeat the behavior. 
- and of course it's your call if you wish to work on it.
- ignoring it is not what you have chosen so far 

- based on so many things you said that reminded me of my dog, i gave you one specific method. try it if you want but if you choose to do so, please provide progress on whether it helps or not. i think you did mention that tying a dog out occasionally is a good thing to have in your toolbox

- sorry others felt more inclined to attack me and ignore your thread, but that is common here as you already know 
- i would have hoped you would have gotten some more specifics but so goes the WDF //LOL//
- bottom line....your call...go with your gut ... we haven't seen the dog


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i'm curious about this :

disregarding for a moment WHY it barks, at what point would you consider the barking a problem that needed correction ? what would be an example of your dog exceeding your limits ?
- we all have our own levels of what we would tolerate. i think that is relevant here


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Misty Wegner said:


> Back on topic ...
> 
> Anybody have any response to my clarification of the situation (see a couple posts above)? Just curious if I should be more ttentive to the issue, or she will outgrow it, or to just leave it be nd maintain...



Without actually seeing the behavior my first thoughts are she is a bit sharp and maybe insecurity goes along with that.

As Rich said you can hear what other people do but that's a different dog with different expectations and temperaments.

I for one wouldn't allow it.


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Misty Wegner said:


> So, question... What can I do to help her get more comfortable with introductions.. Or should I?


What's your gut reaction tell you? I'm not being facetious about your question, I genuinely want to know.


----------



## Misty Wegner (May 22, 2015)

To answer Ricks question..I find it a problem if it becomes more then a bark (i.e. lunging or further then the singular bark) AND if it ends up causing the (moron) who tried to pet her while she is working and ignored my yelling "please don't pet she is working" and the bark causes said (moron) to jump into the street and get hit by a car...

If it is an insecurity, how do I help her overcome it? If she is 'properly' introduced a bark never occurs... As stated before she can navigate through a crowd without a bark or hackles or anythiing.. So it is a specific occurrence of people 'infringing' on her 'rights' as she perceives them...


----------



## Misty Wegner (May 22, 2015)

My gut reaction Nicole, is I don't like it.. She is a SAR dog and so even if it went no further, the knee jerk reaction of others is to assume aggression (even when absolutely no follow occurs). If my boy barked and did the same thing, his bark is so mild, it wouldn't seem as bad.. But a big GSD bark that booms, singular or not, is enough to shatter most people's calm.

Bob - You said you wouldn't allow it.. How do I stop it? I can't stop (morons) from aborting common sense and ignoring my yells.. 

This is me just bouncing thoughts of you guys.. and I appreciate it... I understand her desire to be properly inroduced - I feel the same way - but I don't have a booming bark (or do I...?  )


----------



## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Misty Wegner said:


> My gut reaction Nicole, is I don't like it.. She is a SAR dog and so even if it went no further, the knee jerk reaction of others is to assume aggression (even when absolutely no follow occurs). If my boy barked and did the same thing, his bark is so mild, it wouldn't seem as bad.. But a big GSD bark that booms, singular or not, is enough to shatter most people's calm.
> 
> Bob - You said you wouldn't allow it.. How do I stop it? I can't stop (morons) from aborting common sense and* ignoring my yells.. *
> 
> This is me just bouncing thoughts of you guys.. and I appreciate it... I understand her desire to be properly inroduced - I feel the same way - but I don't have a booming bark (or do I...?  )


this probably doesn't help.


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Misty, what the post above this one says is true. In fact, your mention of it, indirectly infers that you might be inciting some of this barking 

Anyway.

You don't like it and you want it to stop. If she's fairly predictable in what she does it's a pretty easy fix. That said, in a perfect world what specific context or situation(s) do you want this to stop? Realize here that for every action (cause) that you seek to achieve a result (effect), you may be taking a chance of curtailing something that may in some way be beneficial.

The issue with the car barking is easy to fix too. All of this is. Just depends upon what you feel is necessary and what you are willing to do.


----------



## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

IMO, this is one of those "Is the juice worth the squeeze" type of situations. without having read any of the previous suggestions, like with most/all training, you'd have to break it down to it's smaller parts. in this case that approach is especially beneficial because by all accounts, the behavior does not effect her working performance. so to try and address the issue in a working environment could possibly detract from her trailing and that would be the worst thing to do to try and fix the problem. 

i would just work on general sociability for a while. bring her everywhere. this will also force you to confront your apprehension about her behavior toward strangers. she'll never calm down and accept strangers if she senses your nervousness about them (not your nervousness with them of course but your concern with how she'll react). when a stranger passes and she is neutral, give her some praise or a treat. nothing over the top though. calm is key. when she exhibits reliable calm around strangers in non-working conditions, i'd start putting static people on her training trails. far at first, then getting closer. ***BREAK***

ok, i re-read the original post just now (it had been a few days. probably should do that just before i post). again, i'll go back to the juice being worth the squeeze. she works well. the last thing you want to do is detract from that in an effort to get her to accept petting from strangers.

is she what you would call "handler sensitive"? how does she take a correction? both verbal and physical. if she is very handler sensitive, giving her some type of correction for barking could shut her down. only you know what level of correction she'll take without shutting down. 

lots of rambling and disjointed thoughts, but even if it doesn't stop the behavior while she's working, i still think it's a good idea to socialize her more.


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Tim Martens said:


> lots of rambling and disjointed thoughts, but even if it doesn't stop the behavior while she's working, i still think it's a good idea to socialize her more.


No it's not. You said essentially what I was getting at and, to me at least, what you said makes sense. It's a question worth asking, and probably a question that isn't asked enough or when it is, perhaps not thought deeply enough about.


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i'm curious why you wouldn't try and give my method a tryout. i actually went into more detail than you might need but it can certainly be modified. u said she might not be so comfortable being tied out but that it was something that you thought might be a good idea to condition anyway

it is also a method of socializing that allows the dog some separation but still maintains some level of handler control without lead pops 

... and it's the only way i can think that will allow you to use some positive markers rather than simply trying to correct after the fact and always being behind the power curve (or making it worse)

you seem to want to get beyond the "paralysis from analysis" level and do something proactive and you also seem like the type that would prefer PROACTIVE prevention vice REACTIVE correction......which is of course the easier of the two //lol//

Bob's an all positive guy...maybe he can give some specifics of how to prevent a bark before it happens without physical corrections

*note... if u never used Ecollars i def wouldn't start now with your dog the way you have described it

a vid of the behavior would be GREAT if possible. of course it's a 'socializing' issue but only a vid will show clearly how much or how little


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I think Nicole hit it first on knowing when your dog is going to bark.

IF you know and understand the dog's trigger points it a matter of stopping it in the early stages.

The example I've always liked is a wolf hunting sheep and the LGD (Livestock Guard Dog) stopping it without any physical confrontation.

The wolf sees the sheep, the wolf stalks the sheep, the wolf chases the sheep, the wolf catches the sheep, the wolf kills the sheep, the wolf consumes the sheep.

The sooner in this set of behaviors the LGD barks it will disrupt the wolf's behavior and the wolf starts over or leaves.

The further into this set of behaviors the wolf get without the dog alerting, the more physical effort and harder the dog has to work to disrupting the wolf.

simply put

If your dog shows ANY sign of alerting on whatever distraction make it bark that the time to stop it. 

For me, the easiest way is to give a obedience command to the dog.

That means the dog has to be trained to obey because it knows either a high value reward is coming OR a correction. 

I would work on this by setting the dog up with low level distractions and work to high level distraction just as if it was any other distraction training. 

Stop it early in the behavior!!

Rick, I "hate" :twisted: :lol: the term "all positive" simply because there really is no such thing.

It ll starts with getting the pups attention and compliance early in it's life before bad habits develop.

I've never had any issues with that whey I raise the pup simply because any new pup is with me almost constantly and confined to a crate, yard whatever when not with me.

Yes I've had luck with no physical corrections in training as have a number of other people I know but loss of reward with the right dog and training is HUGE.

That loss of reward could be and IS used on the bite field. 

Even a very serious dog can learn to comply if the bite is the reward. You can't get a much higher reward then that.

In this instance the op has a unwanted behavior already started so I would have no qualms about a physical correction IN THAT INSTANCE but stopping the dog before that trigger takes over is huge in keeping any corrections to a minimum or none

Reading a simple ear flick can be that cue to act.


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i know you do Bob 
it was the only way i could prompt you to give specifics 
tx for posting some


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

she no longer has a puppy ... probably won't be as easy but from what i've read it looks doable


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

rick smith said:


> she no longer has a puppy ... probably won't be as easy but from what i've read it looks doable


Agree!

The dog is further along in it's "sheep hunting" :grin:

.....And you mean.....you baited me......OH the horrors of it all! :lol: :wink:


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

George Bernard Shaw said it with more words and i've always taken that road since working for the best Admiral the Navy ever produced, who had that quote conspicuously engraved on his desk so everyone who came in would see it 

my short version is :
flavor is usually enhanced when the pot is slowly stirred //lol//


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

'baiting' is a bit extreme and i've never really enjoyed fishing except from a big fast boat for big fish like we used to do in Guam


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Great analogy!


----------



## Misty Wegner (May 22, 2015)

So an update... To answer your question(s) Rick, you may not have seen my posts prior where I mentioned I had staked out my girl and she was quite good, although I wouldn't want people randomly feeling they could walk up and pet her.. So not only have I tried your suggestion but it went well.. Thank you..

Ok, so had a 3 day search last week.. It was quite chaotic with alot of non trained volunteers...and their dogs. The first day my girl was trailing all day (did a great job too) and we had no incidents of barking even when lots of new people were around and being (annoying) people. A few small barks in the car at first, but then nothing.. 2nd day was almost all HR and had lots of new people around and she was loose and she ignored and did her job, including loading onto the boat for water work - she ignored the LE in the boat and did her job, zero bark (now of course, most LE know you don't just pet the big german shepherd that might bite, lol, but these guys all had that slight lean like they really really wanted to pet her, but she just gave a dutiful nod to the men in blue and did her job).. 3rd day was insanity! Tons of people came with their loose dogs who know nothing and my girl was working HR again.. She was mobbed by people and dogs, but other than a couple of hackles raised by too forward dogs noses up her butt or in her face, she focused on her task and did her job... We had one bark when we were called in to confirm/negate bones and churned earth.. A group of people in thick brush suddenly appearing (along with several dogs) and one singular (woof)'bark' that was kinda like a ' Here I come, if you are hiding in the bushes show yourself because I have a job to do'.. None in the car, or elsewhere...

So, my takeaway, I need to be more patient... I had a feeling it might be just the maturity factor, and while a couple of searches is not enough to fully string together behavior - it is what I was hoping for.. Totally in control and confident.. She still isn't thrilled with people randomly trying to pet her, and I can understand as I don't like people randomly touching me, so as long as she stays aloof I am good with it - my job to protect her rights...

Thank you everyone!!! lots of great suggestions and lines of thought I am still mulling over and applying...much appreciated


----------



## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Misty Wegner said:


> So an update... To answer your question(s) Rick, you may not have seen my posts prior where I mentioned I had staked out my girl and she was quite good, although I wouldn't want people randomly feeling they could walk up and pet her.. So not only have I tried your suggestion but it went well.. Thank you..
> 
> Ok, so had a 3 day search last week.. It was quite chaotic with alot of non trained volunteers...and their dogs. The first day my girl was trailing all day (did a great job too) and we had no incidents of barking even when lots of new people were around and being (annoying) people. A few small barks in the car at first, but then nothing.. 2nd day was almost all HR and had lots of new people around and she was loose and she ignored and did her job, including loading onto the boat for water work - she ignored the LE in the boat and did her job, zero bark (now of course, most LE know you don't just pet the big german shepherd that might bite, lol, but these guys all had that slight lean like they really really wanted to pet her, but she just gave a dutiful nod to the men in blue and did her job).. 3rd day was insanity! Tons of people came with their loose dogs who know nothing and my girl was working HR again.. She was mobbed by people and dogs, but other than a couple of hackles raised by too forward dogs noses up her butt or in her face, she focused on her task and did her job... We had one bark when we were called in to confirm/negate bones and churned earth.. A group of people in thick brush suddenly appearing (along with several dogs) and one singular (woof)'bark' that was kinda like a ' Here I come, if you are hiding in the bushes show yourself because I have a job to do'.. None in the car, or elsewhere...
> 
> ...



I have never nor do I now understand peoples want to feel they can pet a dog because they want. I have some that love it and some that will bite at even an attempt to force them. Whatever you do dont put a "do not pet" placard on them ... for gods sake thats worse than a wet paint sign LOL ... sounds like you guys had a good outing.. hope it goes well going forward. 

We did a little experiment a while back at tractor supply .. we took in dogs with the "do not pet" and dogs with nothing but collar. NEVER failed the dogs with the signs had everyone and their cousin wanting to "be the one who pet the beast" ... it was fun to watch AND very telling about human behaviour lol ..


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Misty
- glad to hear it helped a bit and TX for reporting back. people rarely ever try out my suggestions and it's even more rare to hear whether they worked or not 

Brian
- i have said the same thing about the do not pet signs. actually when a dog is wearing almost any type of harness, vest etc with a label, it becomes an instant people magnet :-(
- but there is one exception for a 'dog accessory' that has worked great for me when i'm getting an unsociable dog conditioned to public environments around people.
--- i muzzle it
- and no it has nothing to do with preventing dog bites. that is MY responsibility and easily done with proper lead control. but it does wonders for making people give the dog the space it needs in public, and just another reason why i think muzzles are great training aids and require ALL my customers to condition their dog to being comfortable in one. 
- i'm so in love with them i have a few diff (clear) jafco sizes that i carved out holes in so i can slam treats in while being worn. tried a lot of diff types but always went back to the clear jafcos. i rarely ever post pics here but did post a couple of a dog sleeping in one as an example of a fully muzzle conditioned dog //LOL//
- much more than just a tool for civil work and vet visits !


----------



## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

rick smith said:


> Misty
> - glad to hear it helped a bit and TX for reporting back. people rarely ever try out my suggestions and it's even more rare to hear whether they worked or not
> 
> Brian
> ...



I dont muzzle them I just give them "the look" when we are out LOL .... I have never had an accidental bite (knock on wood) except the one where the "trainer" at petco got his arm opened up being stupid. But I do take more chances than I should lol


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

for me i just feel some dogs just need more space and they will come around faster

and muzzles keep me from needing to remind people with no common sense to have some
...all in all they make my life and the dog's easier...different strokes i guess 

but i will say again, and have said it before, ANY dog bite in a public place is 100% HANDLER ERROR. 
- i will never make any excuses for anyone including myself, and i will NEVER blame an ignorant person or the dog. no matter how ignorant the person is or how reactive or aggressive the dog is

this has been discussed here before and LOTS of WDF members disagreed with a passion


----------



## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

rick smith said:


> for me i just feel some dogs just need more space and they will come around faster
> 
> and muzzles keep me from needing to remind people with no common sense to have some
> ...all in all they make my life and the dog's easier...different strokes i guess
> ...



Most all of our ideas on whats right are developed through our individual experiences. Each persons daily lives are different as are their environments, food, interaction etc thats before the dog is even part of it. Therefore there can be no one way for most all of it there are as many ways of doing it as there are people doing it. I dont use a muzzle because of the social impact they have. Want a monster in public? Just add muzzle and watch go!! Cant win for losing sometimes lol .... people are going to disagree ... dog people even more and not unlike the others most have no clue about what they speak other than what they heard or saw on the net LOL .... did you see the lady that had the dog that lived for like 18 years on a vegan diet? LOL WHAT!!


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re : "I dont use a muzzle because of the social impact they have"
- roger that; now i got it 

don't have that kinda problem over here in public, but when i work on the Navy base i do get an occasional question about why i'm taking a 'dangerous dog' out in public and i'll give em a joking answer like "so he can show me who he'd like to bite"  
- but usually people just tend to "make a hole", slide away and give you space and act like they don't see the dog 
- if they do start to fixate i'll make the dog sit up and look cute and that will take the edge off
- sometimes we'll start a training chat and that's good for the dog too

actually there is no word in Japanese that means muzzle. a collar is "wa" and neck is "kubi" so a dog collar is a kubi-wa. mouth is "kuchi" so a muzzle is simply a "mouth collar" ....kuchi-wa 

japanese lesson for the day


----------



## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

rick smith said:


> re : "I dont use a muzzle because of the social impact they have"
> - roger that; now i got it
> 
> don't have that kinda problem over here in public, but when i work on the Navy base i do get an occasional question about why i'm taking a 'dangerous dog' out in public and i'll give em a joking answer like "so he can show me who he'd like to bite"
> ...


Im already digging the japanese culture more and more hahah


----------

