# protecting my house



## jim kirkendall (Jan 31, 2009)

I would enjoy some comments on my 7 month doberman.She has some basic obedience in her now, alarms pretty good in the yard and if she sees someone thru the window while in the hse.She has plenty of drive but I thing she is a defensive pup. when I had her spayed she tried to bite everyone at the vets office after I dropped her off and I had to go get her from the kenell when I picked her up.she has had some socialization and once I have her on leash i can walk thru people etc, no problem.If people visit in my hse she is basically stand-offish and really will not let anyone mooch her or pet. she does not flee or anything but just stays out of reach which is ok with me.When she alarms on someone coming near the hse she stays by me and maybe a little bit in front. If she is alone she will stay further back in the hse and bark.Keep in mind I am not trying to get her to take on 6 kick burgulars. She is to be an alarm system and a deterrent.Just like a door lock , motion light etc.If she wants to do more then that is ok. I would appreciate insight on how to get her to stay at the door in the hse or the gate in the yard when someone comes up. I think I basically need an experienced helper to bring this out.thanks


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

_" I would appreciate insight on how to get her to stay at the door in the hse or the gate in the yard when someone comes up"

_Jim, need to go back to your basic obedience- give her a strong foundation-with her DOWN STAY...first on leash,then longer leash, then long line- now go back to your short leash, start adding distractions- take her to the grocery store/ pet store...etc- making her keep her DOWN STAY....then progress to a longer leash, finally to a long line- once she has it, distractions with the long line. IF she breaks, you put her right back at the starting point- increase the time-we compete for sport-but the technique is the same- time it by a clock-increasing to 5 minutes.

now bring it to your house- add distractions with having friends that know you are training to arrive etc .-to test her, if she breaks, put her immediately back in the exact spot you left her- now time to move on the next step....go out of sight, but so you can see her- if she breaks, put her right back where she is- when first out of sight, only a few seconds, then a minute, then....up to 5 minutes out of sight. If you have to secure her to something back tie her, but now go out of sight after telling her to DOWN STAY...or STAY...and add distractions...

Finally you make a fake boundary line in your yard- for example at the end of the driveway, at the gate, we taught our dogs they are not to step pass that boundary line even if the gate is open. It comes with repetition, reinforcing and reward for success. 

your dog should stay- if you say stay....you can be successful with this, but also teach them they are allowed to break the stay should you be assaulted. ....hope this helps mo


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## Michael Santana (Dec 31, 2007)

jim kirkendall said:


> when I had her spayed she tried to bite everyone at the vets office


Wouldn't you fight it too?!?!? :lol: :lol:


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## jim kirkendall (Jan 31, 2009)

I absolutely need to do what u suggest. Thanks but what I should have said was for her to bark at the door(near) or gate instead of by me or deeper into the hse when I am gone.(Ihave tested her some)


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

7 months is very young and she's already reacting defensively. All you can do for now is socialize and obedience train to increase her confidence. At about a year and half see how she responds to agitation.


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

OB has nothing to do with this. This is the natural make up of the dog. She sounds to me to be defensive and is unsure about anyone new at the house, hence why she is backing up and getting to a safer distance so she feels comfortable. She is only 7 mths old, and you are asking a lot of her right now to stand her ground when you are not there to support her. The majority of dogs who defensively bark at people coming to the house will back step if threatened. This is normal. What your job is, is to build her confidence TO stand her ground. Sometimes confidence will come with age but the proper thing to do is to condition her to the responses that you want. You answered your own question, to do this right you need someone who understands the difference a dogs body lanuage and who can bring out the correct response and react in a manner that will build the dog. In time doing this you will have what you are looking for.


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

Obedience training builds confidence.


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

Without the handler around, defending on his own, and without any prior protection training. Sorry, but not the average defensive dog. I've seen plenty of well OB trained dogs who couldn't handle any type of a real threat. They might have been confidence in what a sit, down, or stay means but thats about it. Get the handler out of the pic and have a stranger push the dog and then you will see a fear biter, yeah he might bite, but thats because he feels that he has no other choice. Extend that room by another 20 feet and he'll cover every inch of it first. But with the proper training you can see a different result. The result that I believe that Jim is looking for.


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

OK. Don't obedience train your dog as per Jay Lyda.

Look don't get me wrong. I'm in no way saying that obedience training will grow your dog balls to deal with human adversary. I'm just saying that between now and when the dog can reasonably be exposed to agitation the owner wants to do something. Obedience training builds the dog's confidence in a general way, helps it deal with environmental stresses if there are any. Allows it to have a clearer perception of the world around it. With a dog that's showing defensive behavior at such a young age it can only help.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

jim--she's really just a baby at this point, do not expect her to have the ability to go after a "man" in the house/property.

work on her bond with YOU thru Ob. find a GOOD trainer for any protection/bitework as Dobes (in general, and i've had 'em and love a good one) tend to be nerve-bags and therefore require a really good trainier/helper. they can be great dogs though-enjoy your girl


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

I've NEVER said not to OB train your dog. I said that OB trianing and Jims situation are two different things. I encourage Jim to train OB, its a must. But for what Jim is wanting, a dog to stand his ground at home when he is not there, OB will not help too much. So OB will help with the environmental stesses of the dogs own house?? If a dog is that stressed then someone should think about getting another dog. OB can help a dog at such a young age because it will stimulate the brain and to make it think, I suggest this for everyone, especially when a person says that my dog is bad and gets into trouble at home. Well, if they do something productive with the dog, like OB and get more involved then they will see a different and a better responsive dog. But will this alone make the dog become a manstopper at the front door. NO!!! Otherwise I would go into the paint business because every pet owner in the country who taught their dog to sit would be repainting their front door about every other day because the dog was after somebody.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Emilio, Jay did NOT say don't Obedience train the dog. Where did you read that?
He said,"OB has nothing to do with this. This is the natural make up of the dog. She sounds to me to be defensive and is unsure about anyone new at the house, hence why she is backing up and getting to a safer distance so she feels comfortable. She is only 7 mths old, and you are asking a lot of her right now to stand her ground when you are not there to support her. The majority of dogs who defensively bark at people coming to the house will back step if threatened. This is normal. What your job is, is to build her confidence TO stand her ground. Sometimes confidence will come with age but the proper thing to do is to condition her to the responses that you want. You answered your own question, to do this right you need someone who understands the difference a dogs body lanuage and who can bring out the correct response and react in a manner that will build the dog. In time doing this you will have what you are looking for.

I agree with what Jay said.


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## jim kirkendall (Jan 31, 2009)

I appreciate all the response .Don't want to start a "range war" lol.With out a doubt I will work on obedience and have no intentions of pushing her too quick but I need an experienced person at some point to bring her out with confidence.She is not flighty at all just skeptical of people she does not know.thanks again!!


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

Maybe someone could recommend a helper for when it's time depending on where you're located.

I don't usually like to do prey work with puppies or young dogs until it's time to start agitation. However in your situation Jim I don't think that some prey work with no pressure would hurt. Some of it you can do yourself if you have a good feel for the dog and watch a couple of videos or you can get a helper to do it. A schutzhund helper will be good for this.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Jay you're the man! OB is a controlled activity. Doing environmental activities: evevations, sounds, smells, new challenges...these help to build confidence. Genetics is important here too. At seven months this is very young and any form of defense put on a puppy, which may be slow to mature, is a mistake in my book. How about TIME?! =D> ](*,)


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Emilio Rodriguez said:


> ...*I don't usually like to do prey work with puppies or young dogs until it's time to start agitation...*.


A window *MOST* missed! Prey work at seven, eight, or nine seeks of age *IS *the time. Prey training even through teething can be done. The key here is *NO DEFENSE* in any form. Puppies win because they experience success w/o stress. Like kids grabbing for crayons in a box, strength and power are learned activities. Why is early prey not that important? :-k


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

I train protection dogs. I start the dogs in defense and immediately start to build the foundation for active aggression which includes prey on the man not the equipment. When done right with a genetically capable dog bite building on equipment is not an issue. I don't do this with a dog that's not ready for the work. I check the response at a year, at a year and a half, at two years, at two years and a half. If at that point there is no correct response the dog is not suited for protection training and training it in prey on equipment for 2 years would've been a waste of time.

Conversely with a strong confident pup/young dog prey work with the owner can be a source of conflict. Also if the dog gets strongly conditioned to prey work on equipment later it can be more difficult to isolate his reaction to pressure in an agitation situation where equipment is being used and the dog is expected to bite. The dog is so focused on the gear it doesn't see anything else.

In Jim's case there are mitigating factors. For one he's keeping the dog no matter what. His expectations from the dog in terms of protection are defined, he'll settle for less. The dog is already showing that defense is a large part of its makeup. It will never be a problem to bring him out that way. If there's any little confidence that prey work can instill in the dog it should be taken advantage of here. In the end though I don't believe it will be a big help when it comes down to facing off with a human opponent.


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## kim guidry (Jan 11, 2008)

jim kirkendall said:


> I absolutely need to do what u suggest. Thanks but what I should have said was for her to bark at the door(near) or gate instead of by me or deeper into the hse when I am gone.(Ihave tested her some)


 How and who tested her? Was it a friend sneaking up to your door to see what she would do or was it by a trainer to see what kind of drives she has? She is still young. IMO, you have a window of opportunity here so it may be time, if you have not done so yet to consult a trainer. 

Just a thought, but you may want to contact the local PD K9 unit and see if they know of someone in your area who can help you out. They might be able to assist you in finding someone who can help you with working dog issues other than a Petsmart OB trainer. You can also speak with your vet, they may know of people who do working dog sports?


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## jim kirkendall (Jan 31, 2009)

thanks. I do have some contacts along those lines. I had a "big neighbor" under my instructions show up ,knock at a storm door where she would see him and leave after she barked.She is not damaged goods for sure.I asked this question to re-inforce some of my own ideas and get new ones.She is my second doberman and I do have a little background with protection dogs. I just do not consider myself a full blown trainer but a decent handler.sometimes u forget things at 60 and need to be reminded,,hehe Sooo everybody has helped....for sure.I think sometimes dogs that will display some agression when appropiate but are not full blown biters are under appreciated.The bottom line is she will be a deterrent!I do not live in a real highcrime neighborhood but we have what I call punk crime!Dopehead thieves, looking for a quick snatch and grab.A computer or an electronic they can convert to cash.I do know these people can be dangerous but they look for easy targets.Unlocked doors,unlocked gates, no dogs, no lights at night etc.My dog is a part of my overall security.Everything I do is along the "keep it simple stupid' approach.My plan is to continue with obedience,work in a "bark on command" and find a helper that will know how to make her win when he confronts her.She will be 70 lbs when she matures and has a "big" bark.I'm in Texas and we know how to defend ourself and property and most of all it is LEGAL!Thanks again.


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## kim guidry (Jan 11, 2008)

Best of luck Jim, this is a great place to find out information. Just like fingerprints, everyone here has their own thoughts about training. The hard part is trying to figure out what works for you. Keep asking 
questions and reading all of the answers. We are all here to read, post , learn and grow. 8)


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

_ "I would appreciate insight on how to get her to stay at the door in the hse or the gate in the yard when someone comes up."

_Jim the suggestion of the obedience and working on down-stay came from taking your sentence out of the context of the rest of the story- .I saw you clarified it after- Even So...you do need to find what works best for you and your dog....We are a little to far away, but If you were in our club, I would still work on her obedience and her stay command-I feel it absolutely does build confidence...I would teach her a_ speak_ command...and a _be_ _quiet_ command...and I would also socialize her a LOT right now...let her develop her temperment, encouraging her to be calm- she doesn't have to be overly friendly, but should must able to accept people coming up to you --I would train this off your property, out of HER territory.Maybe set your friends to come up to you, while you are walking down the street, in front of your property. Don't let her display any kind of aggression if they are just walking up to you or stopping by you. Now back in your yard, her territory... I would work on her bite work- I like to develop the puppies bite work...so they think it is a game...they enjoy it, once they develop a nice bite, I think at this point playing with her prey drive is a good thing-later it can be transitioned to the man..and .with a good helper, she can learn when she needs to relax, unless someone assaults you,then game on-now she can bite.........I don't think 7 months is to young to be doing the exercises-you just want to be sure you have someone who knows how to apply the pressure but able to read her and the must know when they need to back off. She needs to have control by you, but she needs to win at the game right now...and she will be able to clearly take care of business later should she have to. have fun


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## jim kirkendall (Jan 31, 2009)

well said ,, and I have been doing that in the neighborhood.


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