# Conditioned Response



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

I know I'm not using the words all-technically-correctly. I'm trying to QUICKLY get my dog to a conditioned response for one behavior. How many repetitions do you think it takes?

I'm working on sit to stand at a heel position, as in the AKC stand for exam exercise. Every time I think she gets it, I have to start over at the next session. It's been 1 week on the behavior. I want it clean by tomorrow night, lol. But really I have 12 weeks.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

How long has it taken to learn other responses?

You might have to teach the stand from a different location first instead of the heel position. Then again, that wouldn't be quick.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

hey NON contributor and retired trainer....


my advice is this...offer an obvious food reward/treat..for command compliance...show food then give command....

if dog does behavior immediatley for treat repeatedly..he knows it...

then it is UP TO YOU what course of action you decide to take...


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Yeah Joby, the dog training part of my brain stopped working. #-o Feel like a newbie.

Been working on this off/on for months. Lots of mistakes, I guess? She never "got" it. I trained it first, but lost it when I added sit and down. This was last year August. I was getting nervous, splayed legs, shaking in reward only training all winter, gave up on training it for a long time. #-o

I am teaching her ecollar pressure, really low stim escape training. I tried it on her today and got a stand without the nervous stuff. Still using food reward.

Then I lost the sit. Really, REALLY, lost the sit. Tried to correct the lost sit and lost the stand again. ](*,)

@ Howard - The only behaviors that are solid rules trained with one session imprinting like crittering. The most reliable behavior is staying at heel on stairs. The first thing she learned here. She started to rush and I cracked her on the snout with a 1" rope leash. She has never done it again. No reminders, retraining, repetition.

She knows nothing fluently. I have not done a lot of training. I have nothing to compare to.

I did train stand in front - Ellis style. Not much difference between at heel or at front right now.

Frawley says 30 repetitions to learn something. Do you think that is true?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Anne Vaini said:


> .
> 
> Frawley says 30 repetitions to learn something. Do you think that is true?


I think if you have good treat available and dog does it immediately, repeatedly...the dog learned it...whether it is 10-30 reps or 100.

if the dog will do it for food, repeatedly on command...it KNOWS the command..could be wrong (disclaimer)


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

I found the quickest way to train my obedience dog is to shape it. She figures things out very quickly once she is operant. I do quite a bit of perch work and body awareness which came in handy in teaching a kick back stand from a sit. Getting the dog in a frame of mind where it is keen to figure out what you want is one of the fastest ways to get a new behaviour established in the dogs mind. This is what I have found anyway. Proofing it and getting it on cue under any circumstance is the next step, then you know a dog really understands.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Sara Waters said:


> Proofing it and getting it on cue under any circumstance is the next step, then you know a dog really understands.


so, just asking here...you are saying that getting it on cue under any circumstance is the step that determines if the dog *understands* the command? 

or are you saying that is when it is proofed, and when it complies?

or is it something else?

if I teach a dog a command in my house..and the dog does it 30 times immediately for food under random circumstances...does the dog not understand? I believe it does understand...if we are talking simple commands here..

when moving off to other circumstances and distractions, whatever the training methods, I believe the dog understands, whether it complies is a totally different subject...

I encounter dogs everyday that understand commands for treats, that do not heed commands or listen for shit to their owners, without treats present, do the dogs NOT understand the meaning of the commands? or is it a compliance issue?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Anne Vaini said:


> I know I'm not using the words all-technically-correctly. I'm trying to QUICKLY get my dog to a conditioned response for one behavior. How many repetitions do you think it takes?
> 
> I'm working on sit to stand at a heel position, as in the AKC stand for exam exercise. Every time I think she gets it, I have to start over at the next session. It's been 1 week on the behavior. I want it clean by tomorrow night, lol. But really I have 12 weeks.



Novice or utility?
In the novice class you can walk the dog into a stand for the exam. It's generally right after the figure eight.
Utility is also done from a walking heel and a hand signal to stand.
Unless I'm getting old faster then I think, I can't recall a stand from the sit position in AKC. 
:-k Maybe rally?
There was no rally back when I was really involved and I didn't do any of it when I went back in the ring.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Bob Scott said:


> Novice or utility?
> In the novice class you can walk the dog into a stand for the exam. It's generally right after the figure eight.
> Utility is also done from a walking heel and a hand signal to stand.
> Unless I'm getting old faster then I think, I can't recall a stand from the sit position in AKC.
> ...


There isnt one in ANKC just the walk into the stand, so I thought it may be something different for AKC. Could be in the signal exercises.

I like to teach a kick back stand from a sit just for hind end awareness especially for the left turns which we have in ANKC and the left abouts and for Rally


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

The AKC signal exercise is started from stand from heeling, to a down, to a sit, to a recall w/front, to a go to heel.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Bob Scott said:


> The AKC signal exercise is started from stand from heeling, to a down, to a sit, to a recall w/front, to a go to heel.


Yes I looked at my rule book and it is the same in UD here. UDX has a position in motion exercise but that entails leaving your dog in a stand or sit or down and continuing to walk on.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

So is your question how long does it take to condition a response ?

6 to 8 months is what I read. That was everyday with a bell. Some guy named Pavlov, but it has been a really really long time since I read that stuff. 

I read your 2nd post and just cringed. Video every training session and send it to me. Not kidding, I have no idea if you are being overly critical, or if you are just butchering your training. I really need to see this for myself after 5 years of reading your posts.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> so, just asking here...you are saying that getting it on cue under any circumstance is the step that determines if the dog *understands* the command?
> 
> or are you saying that is when it is proofed, and when it complies?
> 
> ...


Okay had to think about that one, maybe my wording is not correct. But for me yes, a dog that will react in an alien situation on cue with no treat is when I feel the dog understands what it has been trained to do.

So I have taught my dog to sit when I have a treat in my hand in my house. Take dog to a completely different enviroment without a treat in hand and maybe the dog will or wont sit. I dont know if this is lack of complience due to other things going on around it and lack of a treat or if the dog fails to generalise and understand what is being asked. People often say - he always does it at home.

One of my friends has a nice working sheepdog and at home on their farm she has a beautiful cast, take her to a trial and she always sticks about 3/4 of the way up the cast. She doesnt seem to be able to generalise to the trial sitiation, I dont think she is being wilfull as she loves working sheep. Maybe more work in other different situations and she would get it.

Granted I am sure there are plenty of situations where dogs understands full well what it is being asked to do and just says NAH!


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

30 or so repititions i call bullshit.And even if it took 100 repitions you would need to do it in many locations so she knows it and will do it when you want against distraction.Just cause your dog sits for you in your home doesnt mean she will sit for you down the road if she is learning.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Sara Waters said:


> Okay had to think about that one, maybe my wording is not correct. But for me yes, a dog that will react in an alien situation on cue with no treat is when I feel the dog understands what it has been trained to do.
> 
> So I have taught my dog to sit when I have a treat in my hand in my house. Take dog to a completely different enviroment without a treat in hand and maybe the dog will or wont sit. I dont know if this is lack of complience due to other things going on around it and lack of a treat or if the dog fails to generalise and understand what is being asked. People often say - he always does it at home.
> 
> ...


I can agree with that..


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## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

I think that Joby's idea of testing with the treat in hand is a good one with a but...

With the same contextual caveat. Sometimes a dog "gets it" because of the context. He understands that laying down when a rewards is obvious gets him said reward. Suddenly the reward is gone and he doesn't lay down. I don't neccisarily think he is being willful. I've always been big on fading lures and rewards so the dog understands the concept and understands he will be payed for correct performance even when no obvious reward is present.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

I don't beleive there is an actual mathematical formula for this nor could you even give one, like some have suggested, there are many ways to teach the command from food, compulsion, toy, etc...marking the behavior or not, regardless, every dog is different, every trainer is different and training applications varies. 

Until you can give the dog a command and have them do it in any enviorment with all types of distractions (Proofing!) then it isn't a conditioned response. I would look at time rather than repetitions.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Ben Colbert said:


> I think that Joby's idea of testing with the treat in hand is a good one with a but...
> 
> With the same contextual caveat. Sometimes a dog "gets it" because of the context. He understands that laying down when a rewards is obvious gets him said reward. Suddenly the reward is gone and he doesn't lay down. I don't neccisarily think he is being willful. I've always been big on fading lures and rewards so the dog understands the concept and understands he will be payed for correct performance even when no obvious reward is present.


i did not say with a treat in the the hand, but did realize that could have and probably was assumed...

dont feed a dog for a few days, and you will find out what he KNOWS.

put some treats in your pocket. let him get a good whiff of those treats but do not show them to him...

. walk around. say sit, dog sits, feed him. go in the yard, say sit, dog sits, feed him, walk down the street, say sit, dog sits.feed him.go to park, say sit, dog sits.feed him..

IT KNOWS WAT SIT MEANS.

Take the same dog well fed out with no treats or toys...if he blows you off it is not because he doesn't understand what you want. it is because he does not want to play your game...

my point is this, a reliable conditioned response, is something a dog does...

it is not really indicative of whether or not the dog knows what you want it to do, especially if considering simple "commands", or cues...

It was offtrack of the OP I know. just sayin.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

When teaching odor, I do use a criteria of 20 consecutive, unassisted responses to demonstrate the dog "has" that odor. 

DFrost


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> i did not say with a treat in the the hand, but did realize that could have and probably was assumed...
> 
> dont feed a dog for a few days, and you will find out what he KNOWS.
> 
> ...


I was just thinking maybe in this situation the dog has been conditioned to sit when you have food, so the food has become part of the conditioning. So you have done it in different environments but the prescence of food is a constant. So maybe the sit is under stimulus control of food, maybe the food is part of the cue. So then there is now the need for the process of fading that cue.

Does the dog understand sit without the cue of food in your pocket or is he blowing you off. Got me thinking.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I guess the other critical thing would be how many of those people who responded, could actually get a dog to perform the behavior that you are asking about.

I have three dogs that can do what you are talking about, and one only screws it up if he is in trial. LOL

Those of you responding that have never gotten a dog to do this should probably go ahead and sit these things out.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

As I said my little obedience dog can do it. I taught her perch work first, backend and front end on a box which is part of my normal foundation work for agility and obedience. Then I put her in a sit with my hand on her chest and a small target behind her that she was used to touching with her back feet. Then I gave her a touch the perch command and touched her belly. She soon got the idea and was soon kicking her back legs onto the target into a stand and keeping her front feet still. I then used a clicker and some shaping to refine it and put a command to it. I just say kick.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Novice or utility?
> In the novice class you can walk the dog into a stand for the exam. It's generally right after the figure eight.
> Utility is also done from a walking heel and a hand signal to stand.
> Unless I'm getting old faster then I think, I can't recall a stand from the sit position in AKC.
> ...


 
Yeahhhhhhh, I knew you'd come through. I kept thinking what stand from a sit. Its been years since I've trained AKC obedience and didn't get to UD stuff but thought I was familiar with it. 

Quite zapping the dog. Go to marker training where it can think without the anxiety over the escape. Teach a stand separately and then I'd go to the moving stand in motion and stand from other positions or vice versa depending on the dog. 

There is no set number of repetitions. Each dog is different. If the dog isn't processing it, you have to go to something else. You said the dog is nervous----that interrupts learning.

Terrasita


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Well, back in the day, it was pretty standard to train the dog sit, down stand and be able to have them do it from any given position and in motion. I start training puppies what I call pop ups [sit, down] and again mixed up the order. Later I added stands and the in motion work. I think I've seen Bob doodle with Thunder randomizing the three positions. All my obedience training has been with GSDs and even before the marker training, it was never a big deal. My GSDs have and my bouvier does make my corgis look retarded in terms of how long it takes to train something complex--more than double the amount of time for the corgi. 

There is a difference between marker training and tricks for treats lures. When I marker train, I don't keep the reward on my body. It can be in another room, down field, etc. You also fade the reward. Getting ready for upcoming trials, I start rewarding within the work then only after the session. The session can be an hour of work----much longer than the trial run. 

Also, as Sara indicated, you have to know whether that dog is a generalist or if he is as my corgi is specific to the geographic location where he first learned the behavior or the context where he first learned it. As I explained to Lynda, nearly 2 years ago, I clicker trained a force bark in Khaldi. Up until recently, she would only do it in that same spot and in the same context as I trained it-----no where else. Its only recently she has figured out where to use it in other situations nd locations. What's even more interesting, she learned it as a tool. She doesn't seem to do it on cue. It still is attached to the situation. If I don't have the situation, I can't get her to do it. 

There is no set time to get a conditioned response and for some dogs you had better keep conditioning, less you lose it. A woman from the Netherlands told me about bouviers---what you put there they will keep their life long. This has been true of my bouvs and a couple of GSDs I can think of. You put it there, you don't ever have to revisit it. Not so with my corgis. They could be the lab rat for extinction. 


Terrasita


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## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

Sara Waters said:


> I was just thinking maybe in this situation the dog has been conditioned to sit when you have food, so the food has become part of the conditioning. So you have done it in different environments but the prescence of food is a constant. So maybe the sit is under stimulus control of food, maybe the food is part of the cue. So then there is now the need for the process of fading that cue.
> 
> Does the dog understand sit without the cue of food in your pocket or is he blowing you off. Got me thinking.


This is kind of what I was getting at Joby. I think the reward can very easily become part of the cue. 

An example of this is the Bark and Hold for a club dog trained only in prey. You give him a revier comand and point him at a decoy with no equipment (scratch pants or sleeve) and he gives you a confused look. Is he telling you to screw off or has the reward become part of the cue for the behavior?


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Or you changed the context. A decoy without a sleeve isn't a decoy for some dogs. Its like me giving a flank commnd for a dog and there are no sheep. She layed down in front of me and looked at me like I'd lost my mind. So much for dry work. 

Terrasita


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Or you changed the context. A decoy without a sleeve isn't a decoy for some dogs. Its like me giving a flank commnd for a dog and there are no sheep. She layed down in front of me and looked at me like I'd lost my mind. So much for dry work.
> 
> Terrasita


I was watching a friend of miNe do this with her sheepdog. Her dog is great on sheep but she doesnt have sheep of her own and has perfected dry work.

I tried it on my BC and he also looked at me like I had lost my mind LOL


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> There is no set time to get a conditioned response and for some dogs you had better keep conditioning, less you lose it. A woman from the Netherlands told me about bouviers---what you put there they will keep their life long. This has been true of my bouvs and a couple of GSDs I can think of. You put it there, you don't ever have to revisit it. Not so with my corgis. They could be the lab rat for extinction.
> 
> Terrasita


Interesting. My ACD has not done the weaves for 4 years as she is retired. The other day I was training my youngsters and I decided just for fun to see if she still remembered and every time I put her through she did all 12 perfectly.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Ben Colbert said:


> This is kind of what I was getting at Joby. I think the reward can very easily become part of the cue.
> 
> An example of this is the Bark and Hold for a club dog trained only in prey. You give him a revier comand and point him at a decoy with no equipment (scratch pants or sleeve) and he gives you a confused look. Is he telling you to screw off or has the reward become part of the cue for the behavior?


I think you should try that, I do not "think" I have seen a dog at a club that has been trained to bark, and go into a blind an bark at a decoy, that is experienced, that is NOT going to go into the blind and just give the handler a confused look because he does not see the equipment, he might however, give the decoy a confused look as he is in the blind barking at him, wondering if the sleeve is going to appear..... 

I could be totally wrong, but I would not stand in the blind without a sleeve to find out, personally..I know plenty of dogs that are only trained in prey, that will put some holes in you..the training of the dog in prey only, *may* have little do with whether he will bark at or bite a guy with no equipment, sometimes it is a character thing.

. 

I get what you are saying though...


My ex GF had a boxer, just like you describe, dog was trained with food...she showed me how good its OB was with treats in hand, dog was perfect, in the house, in the yard, outside of the yard...yet the dog was unruly with her, had no respect for her, and would not listen to her if there were no treats. After she asked me to move in, I got tired very quickly of her 2 rude dogs. I took the boxer for a walk with a shiny new pinch collar on her. Told dog to sit. Dog did not sit...corrected dog (tried to bite me, dog had never been corrected in its life). By the time I came back to the house, the dog was listening to every command I gave it. She was amazed..the dog had been through 3 OB classes, 100% no corrections for all three... food and toy only, it knew what we were "asking" it to do, but would only do it if it felt like it, when I "told" the dog what to do and backed it up, the dog amazingly started listening (to me) all the time, still had almost no respect for her, and still doesnt LOL...

doesnt matter not trying to prove anything, you are again assuming that the dog in question is trained with food........try it with a dog that was never trained with food, you will find out what he knows and doesnt know, start correcting a dog that has never had a correction, and you will see if it knows or doesn't know..

I was thinking more for basic type things when I said it. 

not worth arguing over...I am just sticking with what I said, if it is NOT a conditioned response, proofed in all areas, I do not think that necessarily means the dog does not understand, I think that a good percentage of the time the dog does understand, and is interested in other things than listening to you at the time.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Until you can give the dog a command and have them do it in any enviorment with all types of distractions (Proofing!) then it isn't a conditioned response. I would look at time rather than repetitions.

You are talking about a trained response, and not a conditioned response. Read the fails that they are talking about and you will see what I am talking about. If you condition a response, the dog will do it regardless of situation. 

It didn't matter where the dogs were if you rang the bell. They still drooled. See why you do not listen to N00Bs ?? LOL


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Until you can give the dog a command and have them do it in any enviorment with all types of distractions (Proofing!) then it isn't a conditioned response. I would look at time rather than repetitions.
> 
> You are talking about a trained response, and not a conditioned response. Read the fails that they are talking about and you will see what I am talking about. If you condition a response, the dog will do it regardless of situation.
> 
> It didn't matter where the dogs were if you rang the bell. They still drooled. See why you do not listen to N00Bs ?? LOL


 
I dont think it was a NOOB that made that quote. 

I understand what you are saying, I pick up my stock stick and my BC instantly thinks we are going to work stock regardless of where we are, or you click your clicker and the dog thinks food -classical or respondent conditioning.

Maybe with Jobys example - the dog has been conditioned to respond only when food is on the person LOL

Then there is operant conditioning which is the process of shaping behaviours.

I listen and take what I need, noob or otherwise, I dont care if no one listens to me LOL, I only care that my dogs are well trained and do what I need them to do. Bring those bloody cantankerous rams in from the back paddock or do a nice run in agility. Oh and behave themselves in public.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Yeah, well don't make me pull the science off the shelves but there is that idea that there is a difference between biological responses and others. Pavlov was dealing with a biological response. Totally different.


Terrasita


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Yeah, well don't make me pull the science off the shelves but there is that idea that there is a difference between biological responses and others. Pavlov was dealing with a biological response. Totally different.
> 
> 
> Terrasita


Pavlov - Conditioning of reflex responses to otherwise neutral stimulii. LOL I think associating a clicker with food also qualifies.

Operant conditioning is different.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Okay, to explain better, Pavlov dealt with respondent conditioning and reflexive/biological/involuntary responses. On the operant side of things the discussion is more about conditioned reinforcement, stimulus/cue control and generalization regarding what are voluntary actions on the dog's part.



Terrasita


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Sara Waters said:


> Conditioning of reflex responses to otherwise neutral stimulii. LOL


 
Haha, yes so the stimulus and the reflex become conditioned. This is where it all starts turning into those mathematical symbols I hate. I'm working through all this with my one trial dog---espcially the generalization and stimulus discrimination stuff. It does become a terms nightmare and I had this discussion on another forum. The BC person says herding is respondent. My explanation to her was, not when we are training dogs to do it our way. Its not an involuntary reflex regarding which the dog doesn't have any control over. That's the conditioned reflex/response of Pavlov's dog. We are trying to get stimulus control over voluntary/trained actions.

Terrasita


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Sara Waters said:


> Pavlov - Conditioning of reflex responses to otherwise neutral stimulii. LOL I think associating a clicker with food also qualifies.
> 
> Operant conditioning is different.


 
Hence, CONDITIONED reinforcer. To keep it straight I put the operant on the voluntary side and the Respondent on the involuntary/reflex side. Then there are all sorts of discussions as to what is involuntary vs. voluntary.


T


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Hence, CONDITIONED reinforcer. To keep it straight I put the operant on the voluntary side and the Respondent on the involuntary/reflex side. Then there are all sorts of discussions as to what is involuntary vs. voluntary.
> 
> T


This is testing LOL - Conditioned reinforcer could be praise - associated initialy with the primary reinforcer like food but ultimately will become more important which is what I use in training my dogs. A cue is a conditioned stimulus so an otherwise neutral thing like a word or a body position requires a particular behaviour. So condtioning is the process of bringing a behaviour under stimulus control. I can see the voluntary vs reflex could be interesting discussion.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Sara Waters said:


> This is testing LOL - Conditioned reinforcer could be praise - associated initialy with the primary reinforcer like food but ultimately will become more important which is what I use in training my dogs. A cue is a conditioned stimulus so an otherwise neutral thing like a word or a body position requires a particular behaviour. So condtioning is the process of bringing a behaviour under stimulus control. I can see the voluntary vs reflex could be interesting discussion.


Yeah, well I don't generally pair conditioned w/ stimulus and the word requires doesn't fit my mindset on this either but agree that he the end result is to have stimulus control of the behavior through reinforcement.

T


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Yeah, well I don't generally pair conditioned w/ stimulus and the word requires doesn't fit my mindset on this either but agree that he the end result is to have stimulus control of the behavior through reinforcement.
> 
> T


I use it most for agility where I use motion and body position as major conditioned stimulus (cue) so my dog has early warning of what is coming up especially my speed demon. Takes a fair bit of foundation work and heavy reinforcement so they dont respond instinctively to natural cues you may inadvertantly display. My handling still has a lot to be desired but we are getting there. LOL


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Sara Waters said:


> I use it most for agility where I use motion and body position as major conditioned stimulus (cue) so my dog has early warning of what is coming up especially my speed demon. Takes a fair bit of foundation work and heavy reinforcement so they dont respond instinctively to natural cues you may inadvertantly display. My handling still has a lot to be desired but we are getting there. LOL


 
Yeah, for herding I have to take physical cues out of it especially with a dog that is waaayyyyy more visual than verbal. Also, there is the idea that the stock itself can be a stimulus, now that I think about all this and Khaldi. In dealing with the generalization I'm now spending a LOT of time with altering my body position especially for flanks. Its still the same no matter where I am. Ultimately I get to me not even being in the pen to test flanks. But because Khaldi is visual and specific, generallizing takes a lot more time with her. Getting back to the OP, its about whether she has stimulus control of the behavior [stand]. If she is losing other behaviors, like the sit, makes you question the dog's understanding of any of it and sounds like too many behaviors taught before either one of them was truly solid and the pooch is confused. There is no set repetition for all dogs to have a stimulus controlled behavior. Its with stimulus control that you get the generalization discussion---i.e. will pooch do it anywhere, with distractions and/or paired or chained with other behavior before you are satisfied that he is trained or the behavior is under stimulus control. I can see negatives for stopping behaviors but not for establishing and once you start mixing it all together, I can see where the pooch can get confused.

T


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Okay, to explain better, Pavlov dealt with respondent conditioning and reflexive/biological/involuntary responses. On the operant side of things the discussion is more about conditioned reinforcement, stimulus/cue control and generalization regarding what are voluntary actions on the dog's part.

How long does this take then ?? The thread is entitled Conditioned response, and she has been working on it for a week. LOL

She is looking for a trained response, so that was what I was pointing out. She said something about a trial in two weeks. 

You can use fancy terms, but you got to at least start with the correct term to begin with. Better to know the fancy terminology FIRST, and then you don't have to ask why it hasn't happened in a week.

Not everyone can train a dog like many think. Some just confuse the living shit out of the dog. In a week, the dog should be doing something, however, how many times did she switch training methods ? That is why I told her to video EVERY session and send them to me. I want to see just what it is that she is doing.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Yes good posts both Terrasita and Jeff. There is something going astray for the OP which is clear in her original posts, which sent up a few red flags, but she hasnt got back to comment. 

Confusing handling is pretty common, I really work hard on my handling systems, but when I watch some of our top handlers they make things look so easy!


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i've never been able to heel a dog up stairs 

30 reps to learn behavior ?? course if frawley says it - it must be true - unless of course he admits he was doing it wrong for 20 years - then that would change to "i found a better way"

if cracking him worked on the stairs i wonder why the same thing didn't work for a stand from sit ... why change your style --- sounds crystal clear and black and white to me  .....ONE inch rope lead ?? ,,,must be a big sucker 

can you simply have your dog a few paces in front of you and run it thru all positions and mix em all up, lots of reps and lots of positions in no particular order in case it starts to offer positions, etc ? if it can't do that first i wouldn't even think of doing them in a heel, but when he could i'd still start there and then quickly bring him to heel and keep doing the position drills without much of a pause since he should be "primed" at that point


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Okay, to explain better, Pavlov dealt with respondent conditioning and reflexive/biological/involuntary responses. On the operant side of things the discussion is more about conditioned reinforcement, stimulus/cue control and generalization regarding what are voluntary actions on the dog's part.
> 
> How long does this take then ?? The thread is entitled Conditioned response, and she has been working on it for a week. LOL
> 
> ...


Well, boy wonder, its your fault I decided to venture down the fancy terms path. As you so succinctly pointed out, she is trying to get something that she can't. Respondent/Pavlov isn't applicable to what she is trying to do. So before the discussion got any further--get the terms straight. So how long does it take to get what you called a trained response??? Who knows? In this situation, she has mentioned food, a whack on the nose, e-collar escape, dog shaking in the face of reward [is it a reward?], loss of an assumed known behavior [sit], etc. She started with a stand from a sit position. Not to strart another LC thread but how do you do that with e-collar escape training? 

Any way there are three of us on the same page with the fancy terms even if one of us is much more concise. Maybe Sara and I know what you meant in terms of trained vs. Pavlov, but I'm not so sure others do. I think you are right about the video but we have already missed part of it. Now that doggie is confused, I say start over but with what???? You need cue/command/stimulus control/discrimintion of two behaviors [sit and stand] and then you want the dog to be able to distinguish between the two when paired together. 

If you start out with the premise of HOW LONG is this going to take, you are already screwed. I missed the part about a trial in 2 weeks but then again, she said it was an AKC requirement and it isn't unless like Bob said, its one of those rally things.

The first thing for me, is get a communication method, keep it precise in its meaning and don't muddy it up. Its like someone telling me she has THREE marker words. She might have three but the dog only demonstrates that one of them is loaded.

Anyway while we spin our wheels on terms, Anne is probably solving her own training question if history truly does repeat itself.

T


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Oh Terrasita great post as always - anyway I am rushing off to the city for a 2 day agility trial. I have 4 dogs running, 2 on their 3rd outing and one of my youngsters running for the first time so we shall see!


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Hey,

Good luck!!! Khaldi and I will be trialing in 3 weeks. We'll see how the training is holding up in the trial setting.

Terrasita


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: So how long does it take to get what you called a trained response??? 

From a cluster**** ?? Never. She trains service dogs though. :-o

That is why I want her to send me a video of every training session. I just really want to see what her thought process is, cause the way she writes it, there is no process, and the dog hates it.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> . Now that doggie is confused, I say start over but with what???? You need cue/command/stimulus control/discrimintion of two behaviors [sit and stand] and then you want the dog to be able to distinguish between the two when paired together.
> 
> T


Well down in the city and checking emails so a very quick response to this. My obedience dog had a perfect sit and also stand for the examination and walking into the stand in the heel position but she didnt understand the command stand in the context of sit to stand ( pairing them together). That is why I taught her to kick - kickback stand from the sit position. Dont know if this is the conventional thing but I just gave it a different word, so when she is siitting and I say kick she immediately stands from the sit. The word stand means something entirely different to her - as in stand for examination from the heel position.

In away I was sort of backchaining. She knew the end position from her perch training and she knew the start position from her sit. It was just a case of joining the dots and giving it a name.

She didnt need it for obedience but for me it was just something I tried with her as part of her proprioception (sp?) training and it didnt take long at all.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> So is your question how long does it take to condition a response ?
> 
> 6 to 8 months is what I read. That was everyday with a bell. Some guy named Pavlov, but it has been a really really long time since I read that stuff.
> 
> I read your 2nd post and just cringed. Video every training session and send it to me. Not kidding, I have no idea if you are being overly critical, or if you are just butchering your training. I really need to see this for myself after 5 years of reading your posts.


Thoroughly butchered - it was bad. Really bad. Way worse than my normal bad. :/ I finally started getting the behavior, but my trainer now says I'm over-training and I'm cut off. Can't tell her to do anything. ( Good that her service dog stuff she does perfectly without verbal commands.)

The only thing I can do with her is tugging, until Friday.


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

It takes about 200 repetitions to say "the dog knows it" in that environment. Now off course I did not read all 5 pages yet so if already mentioned, sorry for the repeat.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Anne Vaini said:


> Thoroughly butchered - it was bad. Really bad. Way worse than my normal bad. :/ I finally started getting the behavior, but my trainer now says I'm over-training and I'm cut off. Can't tell her to do anything. ( Good that her service dog stuff she does perfectly without verbal commands.)
> 
> The only thing I can do with her is tugging, until Friday.


I do remember some of the old posts, gotta let a dog be a dog, not a slave...


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

" I finally started getting the behavior, but my trainer now says I'm over-training and I'm cut off."


Seems you and I had this conversation some time back. [-X
Reread Joby's comment above then ENJOY the dog and have fun with it. It works...honest! :wink:


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

my suggestion would be put her on the platform, ecollar on the belly(light stim), food or toy to lure and reward.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

( Good that her service dog stuff she does perfectly without verbal commands.)

What does she do as a service dog ? Is it a real service dog ? 

WHERE ARE MY VIDEOS ???


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> ( Good that her service dog stuff she does perfectly without verbal commands.)
> 
> What does she do as a service dog ? Is it a real service dog ?
> 
> WHERE ARE MY VIDEOS ???


I've never said much before b/c privacy. But I don't give a [email protected] now, so here's a little detail.

An example would be yesterday I was in a dark morbid place, about 2 inches from suicidal. She harasses me to twice a day to take my medication. She is always within 15 minutes of the times I trained her. I refused to take my meds yesterday. She harassed me with her natural and trained behaviors. The natural behavior is pawing, the trained behavior is a nose nudge. So I'm seriously depressed and pissed off at her. (Alerts, by definition, are obnoxious). Being in a dark and morbid place, I'm telling her to go away, correcting her for her alert, hit her. She persists (as trained) with DPT alternating with the alert. It took her 2 hours, but she pulled me out of the depression and I took my meds. I'm alive today and 1/2 of the credit goes to my dog. When I am manic I will fly into a rage at her for doing her job. She keeps doing it. She is a saint, I don't know if I would be alive without her.

She does a few other things that are not nearly as important, her presence, "tactile stimulation", attention heeling, and DPT help me get through agoraphobia and hypervigilance. Even medication, I am often stuck at home. She helps me with light mobility - balancing, stairs, standing up - I have problems from medication side effects. She interrupts crying by intiating play. She interrupts a non-responsive state with harassment. She interrupts self-harm/cutting. She alerts to oncoming panic attacks so I can take medication and go someplace safe. She is trained to respond to change of breathing, change in heartrate.

I have impaired memory and conceptual disorganization, so simple processes are difficult. I am hoping find a way to have her help with this. I've heard of other service dogs helping with these issues, but I have no idea what the dog was trained to do. Right now, untrained, she'll stay in the last place I was doing something, and sometimes that will help me remember what I was doing. I have no idea why she does this - maybe she is to lazy to move and follow me, lol.

RE: Obedience

And yes I nitpick and overtrain. Going to give this week of just playing/tugging/no obedience a try. Maybe I do need another dog. 

Part of over training is that dog training is one of very few things that I CAN do. I can only work about 10 hours a week. I can't get a college degree. I can't commit to volunteering or some do-good organization. I can't raise my son without many people helping. The only thing I am good at is training. I want to be good at something. So I train too much.

Second dog time? :-k


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Anne Vaini said:


> I've never said much before b/c privacy. But I don't give a [email protected] now, so here's a little detail.
> 
> An example would be yesterday I was in a dark morbid place, about 2 inches from suicidal. She harasses me to twice a day to take my medication. She is always within 15 minutes of the times I trained her. I refused to take my meds yesterday. She harassed me with her natural and trained behaviors. The natural behavior is pawing, the trained behavior is a nose nudge. So I'm seriously depressed and pissed off at her. (Alerts, by definition, are obnoxious). Being in a dark and morbid place, I'm telling her to go away, correcting her for her alert, hit her. She persists (as trained) with DPT alternating with the alert. It took her 2 hours, but she pulled me out of the depression and I took my meds. I'm alive today and 1/2 of the credit goes to my dog. When I am manic I will fly into a rage at her for doing her job. She keeps doing it. She is a saint, I don't know if I would be alive without her.
> 
> ...


Anne,

I mean this with all the sincerity I have and work with disabled people for 10 years, don't let the dog replace talk therapy. 2nd, leave this dog as your therapy dog and get another for obedience training. 3rd, you have a "trainer?" What's the trainer's role in this and when did it start? Maybe you should only train without someone there for awile.

Terrasita


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

I do talk therapy every week and see my Dr's just as often. :-$ 

Trainer is new to my area. Went to Triple Crown Academy. Very much in the style of Ellis and Blabanov. He trains AKC, Sch, and Ring. Obedience in drive. Has some experience with service dogs. I am SO relieved to have a trainer I can work with, pick apart my handling, objective to see problems. There are few other trainers within 40 miles and none of them comprhend obedience in drive. Only one does clicker/marker training. I never could get the other trainers to understand what I was trying to so - what the obedience in drive thing is. Anyways, I'm happy he's around and we're just now getting started. :smile:

I want to train my dog in obedience so she has FUN, consistent interaction with me. Let's face it, being a service dog for bipolar disorder is a miserable job most of the time. She needs some good stuff in her life. She loves heeling - that was our fun stuff all winter. She's such an amazing dog for obedience, that's her fun stuff. Does that make sense from a dog-training point of view?

Back to conditioned response, after reading all the posts I don't need a conditioned response, just a trained response. She does the stand behavior to brace weight - help me stand up or stay standing - with different commands. _ This_ stand is only for obedience. I know the trial location and I can train there anyday. So I don't really need a true conditioned response because I don't need her to do it "anywhere." Just in one situation. I guess AKC rules let you stanck your dog for stand for exam. So I should stop stressing about fading out a touch cue?


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Anne Vaini said:


> Back to conditioned response, after reading all the posts I don't need a conditioned response, just a trained response. She does the stand behavior to brace weight - help me stand up or stay standing - with different commands. _This_ stand is only for obedience. I know the trial location and I can train there anyday. So I don't really need a true conditioned response because I don't need her to do it "anywhere." Just in one situation. I guess AKC rules let you stanck your dog for stand for exam. So I should stop stressing about fading out a touch cue?


For your obedience you dont need to stress about sit to stand, just walk your dog into a nice even or stacked stand and teach her to wait in that position while the judge touches her and you walk back to her side.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

I stole this from another handler at my last ckc obedience trial... 

She stepped out of heel, leaned slightly over her dog and flicked her hand up near his flank for the stand command. He moved from sit to stand and then she proceeded with the rest of the exercise. 

I tried it with my dog, who I struggled with in the ring to get the stand that worked so nicely before we stepped into the ring. He responded to the cue even without being trained for it. 

Totally 'legal' in the ring - no touch involved, but seemed to work.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Anne Vaini said:


> The only thing I am good at is training. I want to be good at something.


Not to change the subject but, you are a pretty talented artist as well. 

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f8/childs-play-16341/


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Nicole Stark said:


> Not to change the subject but, you are a pretty talented artist as well.
> 
> http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f8/childs-play-16341/


New medication causes tremors, so I can't even do that now. :-({|= But thank you very much. 




I know I'm on a no-training week... but...:lol: my 12-yr-old neighbor is training my dog for 4H - "pre-novice." We went out to the trial field. They played ball and then did 3 steps of beautiful heeling. A little bit more play.

I did the sit to stand twice. Perfect. We did the stand for exam quick with my neighbor acting as judge. OK. She didn't move, but she didn't know what to expect so she turned her head twice (is that OK?) We played tug at home.

I am much less concerned about getting sit to stand at heel now. But I'm still wondering how well she knows this and how long time or how long repetitions it will take before it will be automatic so I don't have to worry about it.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Anne Vaini said:


> I did the sit to stand twice. Perfect. We did the stand for exam quick with my neighbor acting as judge. OK. She didn't move, but she didn't know what to expect so she turned her head twice (is that OK?) We played tug at home.
> 
> I am much less concerned about getting sit to stand at heel now. But I'm still wondering how well she knows this and how long time or how long repetitions it will take before it will be automatic so I don't have to worry about it.


I still dont understand which obedience you need the sit to stand for. Never had to do it in pre novice, novice or open over here.

The only requirement over here at least is they keep all 4 paws in the same place you left them in before the judge touches the dog. You lose a point for each paw moved and if they move all 4 you fail. I dont think it matters too much if they turn a head, not in novice or pre novice anyway.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

leslie cassian said:


> I stole this from another handler at my last ckc obedience trial...
> 
> She stepped out of heel, leaned slightly over her dog and flicked her hand up near his flank for the stand command. He moved from sit to stand and then she proceeded with the rest of the exercise.
> 
> ...


That's neat. I'll remember that.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

"I did the sit to stand twice. Perfect. We did the stand for exam quick with my neighbor acting as judge. OK. She didn't move, but she didn't know what to expect so she turned her head twice (is that OK?) We played tug at home."

In the AKC Novice class you can physically "stack" the dog in the ring if you want. Take your time even. The judging is when you stand up and the judging says "leave your dog"
Moving it's head is not a problem. Moving feet is different and you loose more points the more the dog moves it's feet. "IF" the dog moves a body length from where you left it, it will fail the exercise.
In the upper classes you may not handle the dog into a stand.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

leslie cassian said:


> I stole this from another handler at my last ckc obedience trial...
> 
> She stepped out of heel, leaned slightly over her dog and flicked her hand up near his flank for the stand command. He moved from sit to stand and then she proceeded with the rest of the exercise.
> 
> ...



Another way of teaching this is, with the dog sitting in heel position, reach back around your left leg with your right leg and tap the dog on it's flank with your right foot........unless it's not your dog:-o
There was a kennel boarding and training owner that wanted to show me this with Thunder....only once. She's only used to training Goldens. :twisted: 

Touching a dog, (puppy or young dog in particular) in the flank area can often stop them in their tracks similar to a pup being inspected by and older dog. Great for teaching the stand with the right dog.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

1 week. Got the stand. Had to take days off and PLAY, but we got it.


Now....

She pops into a stand whenever she's sitting at heel. :-\" Ah well, long sit, and heeling-autosit are on the list for this week.


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## Aaron Myracle (May 2, 2011)

You really have to consider if what you're asking is fair to the dog.

You've highlighted the times that the dog is rather harshly punished for performing trained behaviors [medication alert, for example] in her day-to-day life.

Is it really fair, then, to also ask this dog to consistently perform obedience commands for recreational purposes?

I agree with the recommendation to continue to employ her as your Service Dog, and consider another dog for obedience competition. I just don't think it's fair, or realistic, to ask a dog who is often punished for being correct, to be a competition dog. The uncertainty that you're experiencing [losing one command for every new one gained] is likely to continue, by virtue of the fact that she is punished on other occasions for correct performance.

IMHO, you risk losing her as a Service Dog if you continue to push this. She performs correctly in her intended job, leave her to that. Don't add more, and risk losing everything.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Aaron Myracle said:


> You really have to consider if what you're asking is fair to the dog.
> 
> You've highlighted the times that the dog is rather harshly punished for performing trained behaviors [medication alert, for example] in her day-to-day life.
> 
> ...


Not only that, I don't know why you would have the 12 year old involved with this dog. My typing got fuddled but given the cognitive issues, only train with the trainer present. Obedience training doesn't appear to be "fun" for this dog. Dogs like Off time from having to perform on command. Playing ball or tug is a pressure release behavior that the dog can enjoy. Furthermore, is this Emma the pitbull or some other dog.

Terrasita


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Got video tonight of the sit-to-stand. She is soooo confused. I don't want to correct her for trying to figure it out, so I think I am making it worse.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfbomYjkEDY


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Let me help you out a little here. Leave the leash alone. Take it off, whatever, as she is not looking to escape.

USE FOOD AND LURE !

Do this from the front so you can actually see her ass end move. You are doing the harder part first for some reason. By not being able to help her when her but STARTS to go up, because it is way the heck behind you, you are impeding her progress a bit. You skipped a bunch of stuff.

The problem with stand is that it is the least used command by a huge margin in training, and in life. It also takes a huge amount of repetitions for the dog to get the positions correctly.

For every time you have said stand, you have probably told the dog to down a thousand times or more, and hundreds more for the sit. 

Shorter sessions more often and use food.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I noticed the inflection on the first command, which the dog readily responded to was different from the subsequent ones. At first I thought you said down, then I realized you said stand. I'm not sure which is the more likely way you'd give the command or even if it really matters here but I thought I'd toss that out for consideration.


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## Aaron Myracle (May 2, 2011)

Listening on the video, your "stand" command sounds a lot like "down"._ [Looks like Nicole heard the same thing too]_
Seriously, re-watch your video. At this point, while she doesn't really know stand, is the time to consider either being really, really conscious of your inflection, or just change the command to something else entirely.

At one point, she stood, and you didn't mark or reward her- presumably because she wasn't in the heel position when she came up? Regardless, mark and reward. The finesse of keeping her at heel, etc, comes later. First she just needs to be able to stand. You actually waited until she took a step forward to get back at your knee before you praised her. She was much more hesitant on the subsequent commands, probably because she's still unsure, and you missed marking her on the prior stand until after she moved around.

To the dog, that picture looked like "stand means stand and take a step forward" because the mark didn't happen when she stood, and the mark and reward both came after she took a step forward. When you're teaching the stand, you have to be quick to mark the second the dog is standing squarely on all four feet, and then give the dog a release command before you reward [that way it's clear that the reward is not for the movement].

Like Jeff said, work from the front of her, OR stick her up on a low table or bench, so you can stand alongside her. Have her sitting so that she cannot step forward [her front paws are at the end of the surface], and lure her with food. If she does like she has done in the video, and starts to lift, you can run your hand down her side to encourage her to come the rest of the way up. You aren't physically lifting her, just running your hand along her.

I agree with Jeff's suggestion to ditch the leash. If she's already concerned about correction, the leash is only going to increase that, and make her less likely to try when she isn't 100% sure if she's right.

Stand is something we're working on too, so I feel your pain.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Anyone else want to repeat what I said ??

Inflection smection. THe dog has to know the command, and it clearly doesn't. However, the dog is guessing, so she didn't go that batshit nuts on it. 

Two or three reps at most in a session. If you have to, cheat and put the dog on a table and let her follow the food till she is guessing right most of the time. Take that stupid time frame off of your training. So she loses the stand for exam, or you wait till she can do it.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Do this from the front so you can actually see her ass end move. You are doing the harder part first for some reason. By not being able to help her when her but STARTS to go up, because it is way the heck behind you, you are impeding her progress a bit. You skipped a bunch of stuff.
> 
> Shorter sessions more often and use food.


I aint gonna repeat what Geoff said and I have my own way of teaching sit to stand using food and without a leash. I will however strongly agree that you have most certainly "skipped a bunch of stuff". Rushing and skipping inevitably makes it soo much harder in the long run.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

I did teach in front first, but sounds like you guys all agree not enough, not good enough.

How can you tell that my stand command sounds like my down command? :lol: I never downed her. I'll try to get another video with the down in there too so you guys can tell me if they are too similar.

I have my work cut out for me. Basically start over.  I'll be back in a month or so. :mrgreen:


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Anne Vaini said:


> II have my work cut out for me. Basically start over.  I'll be back in a month or so. :mrgreen:


Yes I have had to start over before - usually if I cut corners. Just make sure you have a plan. Good hind end awareness has really helped me out in obedience and agility. One of the first things I work on with my dogs.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Anyone think the dog is not really loaded on a marker? Also, its one behavior at a time.. If she stood, shouldn't care that she is out of perfect position. Also shouldn't have some sort of duration requirement then as an afterthought, pet her and throw the ball. She's not sure whether sit gets the reward or stand. Before you put two behaviors/cues together in a chain, makes sure teh dog knows them independently first. What happeened to Emma the pitbull?


Terrasita


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Emma got more unpredictable/unstable. Started growling at people randomly. And it just kept getting worse. Last straw was she went after my neighbor. If she hadn't froze - if she had run from Emma it would have been disaster. I had her euthanized. She was my biggest heartbreak. I have never before or since met a dog so easy to clicker train, it was ... well, if you've ever had a dog euthanized for behavior you would understand.


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

Jeff you are pretty close. I agree. I would also start useing a stand stay too. When you go get something stand stay. That way it becomes an actual command. It was a bad day when theyy took the stand stay out of FR.


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