# Sharp puppy



## Rebecca Samoska

Hello, I'd like to hear some thoughts on having a puppy that's showing pronounced sharpness. 

I have a 4 and 1/2 month old girl that comes from stable but serious bloodlines. Neither parent shows this sharpness, but it is there back in the line, and in one of her half sisters. Just for your information the Breeder is in contact with me, and advising me all the way with her upbringing. I'm here asking because this behavior is new, and very interesting to me. 

I'd like to learn how others raise a pup like this. She is confident and bold. Recovery is quick with inanimate objects she sees as threatening. 

With people though she can turn on quickly. By this I mean if she sees them as threatening, she go forwards quite aggressively. Bark, growl, lunge, and even try to bite. She does this not with everyone, many she goes right up to with happy puppy wiggles, others she charges full out. 

She alerts to everything she sees, and (if allowed) would run across a football field to confront who she's alerting on. She does not bark and backup. I do notice it more often after dark, but she'll do it at anytime. 

She also is possessive, though not aggressively, and is easily frustrated, especially by barriers. She is not dog aggressive, and makes friends with people easily, and remembers them the next time she meets them. 

Just doing easy drive building with a towel (she's teething so we don't tug) her bark deepens, and I believe becomes more serious, though her tail is happily wagging, and her ears are up. 

I'm no way an expert on drives, or nerves. I've read extensively on here trying to get a handle on her, and the best way to react. Most of what I've read worries me, but several threads are from folk who like dogs like her (if I'm reading her right) and have suggestions that I like on the raising of them. 

I've only found a few positive threads though on pups like her. Any thoughts? Advice? I'm as of now redirecting with simple obedience by way of treats/toys when she reacts like this. It's working well, at least until her object of defense reengages her attention.


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## Rebecca Samoska

Where have my paragraphs gone? I did not write this in one large paragraph like it came out.






** No idea, but I made paragraphs.  **


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## Anne Vaini

Teach the pup to be quiet/relaxed on cue. Also teach the pup to focus on you on cue.

When you are in a situation where your pup alerts, praise. No touching, no reward. Calm praise. Then, cue your pup to shut up and relax. When your pup doesn't, correct it. Cue focus. Direct your dog into correct behavior by breaking into attention heeling (away from the stimulus). After dog is calm (and focused), reward.

The result should be a dog that has a degree of suspicion, has learned what is threatening and not, has a nice alert bark, but most importantly - follows your direction and leadership.


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## Rebecca Samoska

Thanks Anne for the quick answer. I've not started focused heeling yet, we're mainly doing motivational sits/downs/and recalls.

I have been asking for focused sits with limited success. She'll sit, but not remain sitting and focused.

Are you suggesting I correct for disobedience to a command I've given, or for the aggressive reaction? The reason I'm asking is all my obedience as of now is without corrections, and I've heard (do not know if it's true) that correcting her reactions will teach her to control them, resulting in an attack I may not be forewarned about.


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## Anne Vaini

Rebecca Samoska said:


> Thanks Anne for the quick answer. I've not started focused heeling yet, we're mainly doing motivational sits/downs/and recalls.
> 
> I have been asking for focused sits with limited success. She'll sit, but not remain sitting and focused.
> 
> Are you suggesting I correct for disobedience to a command I've given, or for the aggressive reaction? The reason I'm asking is all my obedience as of now is without corrections, and I've heard (do not know if it's true) that correcting her reactions will teach her to control them, resulting in an attack I may not be forewarned about.


Right. You would not correct the aggression. That can teach her to mask he pre-aggression body language which can be dangerous like you mention.

You would correct the failure to stop (obedience). 

I did this with my dog who has become a bit suspicious although not necessarily sharp like your pup. I did it with her as a pup a couple times. My dog has a nice alert bark - she'll run at the front door barking if there's an unusual or suspicious noise. I praise her, check it out and give her an all-clear / shut-up cue. IF she continues to bark, she receives a correction.

It is important that your pup understands the correction first. Not saying you need to put a prong or shock collar on. At a minimum your pup must understand a marker that means "no!" Do you use a marker that means "no reward, try again"? That's a start.

If your pup had no concept of correction and you corrected it, you'd have a problem. But if the pup understands a marker and that correction follows, it should be fine. Especially with praise for the response, a cue, a no-marker and THEN a correction IF your pup doesn't stop... I haven't seen any problems with that.

What is the breeder saying? Does this conflict?


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## Edward Egan

Rebecca Samoska said:


> Hello, I'd like to hear some thoughts on having a puppy that's showing pronounced sharpness. I have a 4 and 1/2 month old girl that comes from stable but serious bloodlines. Neither parent shows this sharpness, but it is there back in the line, and in one of her half sisters. Just for your information the Breeder is in contact with me, and advising me all the way with her upbringing.
> I'm here asking because this behavior is new, and very interesting to me. I'd like to learn how others raise a pup like this. She is confident and bold. Recovery is quick with inanimate objects she sees as threatening. With people though she can turn on quickly. By this I mean if she sees them as threatening, she go forwards quite aggressively. Bark, growl, lunge, and even try to bite. She does this not with everyone, many she goes right up to with happy puppy wiggles, others she charges full out. She alerts to everything she sees, and (if allowed) would run across a football field to confront who she's alerting on. She does not bark and backup. I do notice it more often after dark, but she'll do it at anytime. She also is possessive, though not aggressively, and is easily frustrated, especially by barriers. She is not dog aggressive, and makes friends with people easily, and remembers them the next time she meets them.
> Just doing easy drive building with a towel (she's teething so we don't tug) her bark deepens, and I believe becomes more serious, though her tail is happily wagging, and her ears are up. I'm no way an expert on drives, or nerves. I've read extensively on here trying to get a handle on her, and the best way to react. Most of what I've read worries me, but several threads are from folk who like dogs like her (if I'm reading her right) and have suggestions that I like on the raising of them. I've only found a few positive threads though on pups like her. Any thoughts? Advice? I'm as of now redirecting with simple obedience by way of treats/toys when she reacts like this. It's working well, at least until her object of defense reengages her attention.


What are your intention with this dog? Schutzhund or?


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## Rebecca Samoska

Anne, I use the word 'stop' at home for unwanted behavior. She does understand it means to desist her immediate actions. I also use 'no' as a marker that I want another behavior when doing obedience, and to try again. I mark with 'good' when she gets it right.

Edward, I am doing Schutzhund.


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## Edward Egan

Rebecca Samoska said:


> Anne, I use the word 'stop' at home for unwanted behavior. She does understand it means to desist her immediate actions. I also use 'no' as a marker that I want another behavior when doing obedience, and to try again. I mark with 'good' when she gets it right.
> 
> Edward, I am doing Schutzhund.


What does your TD say about this?

My dog was simular, when he figured out that his bark ment something he barked at everyone, lunged at some, aloof to all others. After awhile (maturing) this subsided. It's most likely just a stage. I would follow your TD advise if you trust him/her. Correcting such behavior may have detrimental effects.


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## Rebecca Samoska

Her breeder warned me ahead of time, I'd have a serious dog. Even she's surprised at how young it's showing. She has told me to limit how strangers approach her. To allow my pup to approach them if she desires, but to stop people from bending and reaching for her. To keep socializing, but not to expect her to like every stranger she sees, and to be careful who, and how I allow people to approach her. 

She advised pretty much the same thing, having the pup sit and focus on me when strangers are near. lol, She also tells me I now have a GSD, and not a GSD in a golden retriever outfit. She likes the older, more serious lines. 

This pup is fun, surprising, and entirely new to me. I am seeing a different type of GSD than the showlines I now have. I'm having a blast with her, but am also worried about making stupid mistakes.


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## Rebecca Samoska

Edward Egan said:


> What does your TD say about this?
> 
> My dog was simular, when he figured out that his bark ment something he barked at everyone, lunged at some, aloof to all others. After awhile (maturing) this subsided. It's most likely just a stage. I would follow your TD advise if you trust him/her. Correcting such behavior may have detrimental effects.


He is fine with me doing as I am. The breeder knows these bloodlines very well, and I'm following her advice. The poor breeder is getting calls from me all the time though! She's having to train me.


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## Al Curbow

Can you post a video?


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## Rebecca Samoska

I don't have any as of now, but hopefully will next week.


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## Mike Scheiber

Knowing the breed of the animal and pedigree can shed some lite on what you have.


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## Rebecca Samoska

Mike Scheiber said:


> Knowing the breed of the animal and pedigree can shed some lite on what you have.


I'm sorry, and you're right.

She's a German Shepherd, here is the link to her pedigree.

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/para.utkoma?fadir=507712&modir=499603


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## Connie Sutherland

I'm wondering: Have you had this pup for months, or did you just recently acquire her?


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## Mike Scheiber

We have had a couple of Ann's dogs in our club that were very nice The one was wound quite tight but stable with some edge nice calm full grips was easily over stimulated.
The other was a bitch don't get to see much of her.
Ann's dogs seem for the most part to be better suited for the Police car rather than a points dog for sport. 
It looks like you are going to have ALOT! of dog judging by the pedigree is this you first working dog.


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## Rebecca Samoska

Connie, I've had her since she was 8 weeks old.

Mike, my pup has very nice calm grips too. She also has a nice calm carry. She is easy stimulated, and gets very, very intense quickly. Anne tells me to keep myself calm around her because she feeds off of my excitement.

She has a nice prey drive, but seems to go defensive quickly. I'm hoping I'm reading her right, I think I am. You're probably right she'd be better suited for other venues, but I think we'll do ok with Schutzhund. She's willing, and tireless when it comes to chasing anything that moves. Food drives are nice too.

She is my first workingline, and I agree she's going to challenge me to keep up with her.

My biggest job now will be to get her through this excessively defensive, suspicious stage. I don't want to accidently nuture it, nor squash it. (can it be squashed?)

Becky


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## Mike Scheiber

Rebecca Samoska said:


> . You're probably right she'd be better suited for other venues, but I think we'll do ok with Schutzhund.
> 
> She is my first workingline, and I agree she's going to challenge me to keep up with her.
> Becky


Nasty cop type dogs doing Schutzhund are usually the most entertaining and fun to watch provided they have good nerve. It is what it was meant to be there's more than one way to appreciate a Schutzhund dog.
Enjoy your puppy be careful


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## Michele McAtee

Mike Scheiber said:


> Nasty cop type dogs doing Schutzhund are usually the most entertaining and fun to watch provided they have good nerve. It is what it was meant to be there's more than one way to appreciate a Schutzhund dog.
> Enjoy your puppy be careful


That's the type of dog I started with in Schutzhund and he proved to be too much...at a year old, his colors really began to "shine" more brightly   and I had to surrender. He is now a dual purpose K9 officer--just received pics of him the other day and he looks great and is doing well.

To the OP. It really is a different ballgame with a dog of that caliber. I had the same scenarios with my dog. Teaching the focus on you around crowds and people will prove invaluable. Rib eye steak works wonders. Command a loose lead. 

I can honestly say I do not miss the days of "do not look at the dog, do not touch the dog and do not make any sudden movements" The attitude and lifestyle I had to adjust to in order to live with him. Serious dog. But get through the goofy stage(s) and you'll probably end up with a great dog.


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## Rebecca Samoska

Michele McAtee said:


> That's the type of dog I started with in Schutzhund and he proved to be too much...at a year old, his colors really began to "shine" more brightly   and I had to surrender. He is now a dual purpose K9 officer--just received pics of him the other day and he looks great and is doing well.
> 
> To the OP. It really is a different ballgame with a dog of that caliber. I had the same scenarios with my dog. Teaching the focus on you around crowds and people will prove invaluable. Rib eye steak works wonders. Command a loose lead.
> 
> I can honestly say I do not miss the days of "do not look at the dog, do not touch the dog and do not make any sudden movements" The attitude and lifestyle I had to adjust to in order to live with him. Serious dog. But get through the goofy stage(s) and you'll probably end up with a great dog.


Don't frighten me. I surely hope my pup isn't as bad as your saying yours was. Support and educate me. 

I guess I'll be buying some steaks!


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## Michele McAtee

I fully agree with your trainer who cued you into your excitement traveling down the lead. It IS an adjustment to get used to this type of dog. I went through a period and I was siding with the pet folks, staring at my dog, telling me he was "red zone" and I'm thinking "yes, indeedy, that is correct"

But I had to realize that this was a 4.5 month old puppy, baby. I had to step up my training on a very steep learning curve. I did learn a lot from him. My situation involved my child and it was not going to work out at all. If it would have been just me, I'd likely still have him.

Did not mean in anyway to frighten you, but it is reality and a big responsibility. Not anything like taking pet pups walking out around town and on out to the dog parks. 

Get with a trainer you trust and work with the pup everyday, night and a lot of environmental work helped us too.


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## Rebecca Samoska

Michele McAtee said:


> I fully agree with your trainer who cued you into your excitement traveling down the lead. It IS an adjustment to get used to this type of dog. I went through a period and I was siding with the pet folks, staring at my dog, telling me he was "red zone" and I'm thinking "yes, indeedy, that is correct"
> 
> But I had to realize that this was a 4.5 month old puppy, baby. I had to step up my training on a very steep learning curve. I did learn a lot from him. My situation involved my child and it was not going to work out at all. If it would have been just me, I'd likely still have him.
> 
> Did not mean in anyway to frighten you, but it is reality and a big responsibility. Not anything like taking pet pups walking out around town and on out to the dog parks.
> 
> Get with a trainer you trust and work with the pup everyday, night and a lot of environmental work helped us too.


Your words about 'red zone' could have been mine! Thank goodness Anne, my breeder, is patient with me, a little irritated at times also, and tells me not too listen to that kind of talk. I did know what kind of dog this pup would be. But knowing, and seeing for the first time, is very different. I'm still reeling at times, but becoming more comfortable, and am looking forwards to watching her development. She is changing daily, and I'm loving the surprises, scared of them too at times. 

I do have a question. She has barrier frustration. Does keeping her away from stimulation help, or the opposite, and introducing her to it often. When crated she is very defensive. I've had the crate out with my club and allowed her to watch. Is this too much? Should she be safely in the quiet of my car instead?

Thanks for the advice. I've been taking her everywhere I can. Introducing her to as many things as possible. My breeder has suggested I limit who approaches her at this stage. She fully agrees with the focus on me though.


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## Michele McAtee

If you can get some video of her behaviors like was mentioned earlier, there are excellent trainers on board who can help you get through these hurdles. 

Personally, I would either have the dog out on lead with you during ob at club, working on focus on you or crate her in the vehicle. If she had low prey or something, the crate could foster some frustration, but I do not see how this will help your dog.

Once you experience a dog like her, there is no going back to the "pet" thinking. lol. I'm glad you are doing schH and glad you have a trainer/breeder. We all start somewhere.


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## ann schnerre

awww, i've wanted an adler-stein pup forever.  maybe someday when i grow up....

keep us posted, videos/pics are always welcome.


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## Lee H Sternberg

This sounds a bit familiar. :smile: It just gets better or worse depending how YOU decide to look at it. Eyes in the back of your head, always, is my suggestion. Mine doesn't like anybody outside the pack, period. She will now tolerate anyone up close. Just don't try to pet her. [-X


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## Rebecca Samoska

ann freier said:


> awww, i've wanted an adler-stein pup forever.  maybe someday when i grow up....
> 
> keep us posted, videos/pics are always welcome.


lol, I've wanted one for 8 years. I'm so happy I finally took the plunge. It took two showlines first to convince me to finally go for it, that I wanted more. Boy, did I get it!

This is Moska


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## Sam Bishop

Wow, she's a great looking little girl


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## Jeff Oehlsen

How is this a problem ?? LOL Just snatch the little devil up and away from all these thousands of bad people until she gets a little older and is mature enough to deal with stuff.

Loud NO and a crack on the head to show you mean it works wonders..........unless you are her bitch.

There are hundreds of people that are dying to get that kind of dog, and it always ends up in the inexperienced ones house. Something tells me you are too soft.

I may just use you to raise some puppies to 10 months for me. Softies let them get away with murder, and when you pick them up at 10 months..........wow. : )

Wish I had a well defined way to tell you what I do, but it is not something I would even try to describe by typing it out.

I can say this, I pick my moment, and act like I am going off the deep end. I have dragged dogs back to their kennel by various body parts including their lower jaw for THINKING about acting stupid without permission.

Your JOB as an owner is to teach her that violating this is gonna go real bad for her. You also have to carry it out far enough, and then just let it go emotionally, and act like all is well with the world. 

Like I said, too hard to describe.


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## Lee H Sternberg

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> How is this a problem ?? LOL Just snatch the little devil up and away from all these thousands of bad people until she gets a little older and is mature enough to deal with stuff.
> 
> Loud NO and a crack on the head to show you mean it works wonders..........unless you are her bitch.
> 
> There are hundreds of people that are dying to get that kind of dog, and it always ends up in the inexperienced ones house. Something tells me you are too soft.
> 
> I may just use you to raise some puppies to 10 months for me. Softies let them get away with murder, and when you pick them up at 10 months..........wow. : )
> 
> Wish I had a well defined way to tell you what I do, but it is not something I would even try to describe by typing it out.
> 
> I can say this, I pick my moment, and act like I am going off the deep end. I have dragged dogs back to their kennel by various body parts including their lower jaw for THINKING about acting stupid without permission.
> 
> Your JOB as an owner is to teach her that violating this is gonna go real bad for her. You also have to carry it out far enough, and then just let it go emotionally, and act like all is well with the world.
> 
> Like I said, too hard to describe.


Wise words, Jeff. Mine is over a year and a half old, finished her second heat and some maturity is the key. I'm not easy on her if she gets stupid. For me it is like walking a fine line. 

I tried to maintain all that FIRE in her while still controlling it until she matures. That hasn't been easy for me sometimes.


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## kristin tresidder

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I pick my moment, and act like I am going off the deep end. I have dragged dogs back to their kennel by various body parts including their lower jaw for THINKING about acting stupid without permission.



LOL! that refreshing breath of reality went well with my morning coffee!


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## Gillian Schuler

I wanted to answer with "what you want is what you get" and then Jeff wrote this post.

I don't think there is more to add to it. 

Whatever it's pedigree, however many "serious" dogs there are in there, it's a puppy and at 8 weeks when you got it, it probably wasn't ready to face you but it sure did have you "checked out" in the first few minutes.

Don't let people frighten you into thinking it will be "too much dog". If you listen to such rantings you'll lose. Just say to yourself "I'm the boss" and deal with the pup. Some need a sledge hammer some a feather but do what it needs.

I have a friend who has Bernhardiners and always says "As long as I'm paying for their food, they do what I say".

I heard my next door neighbour say to his son "as long as you have your feet under my table, you'll do what I say." Didn't think he had it in him but "Oha".


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## Rebecca Samoska

Thanks for all the replies, I've enjoyed your answers, advice, and stories.

I think with time and guidance, her and I will do just fine. As another member mentioned, it may be a bumpy ride though for both of us for awhile.

Becky


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## Jeff Oehlsen

How long before the dog goes back to the breeder ?? Anyone taking bets ???


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## Rebecca Samoska

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> How long before the dog goes back to the breeder ?? Anyone taking bets ???


You'll lose. Visits for training don't count.


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## Mike Scheiber

Rebecca Samoska said:


> Thanks for all the replies, I've enjoyed your answers, advice, and stories.
> 
> I think with time and guidance, her and I will do just fine. As another member mentioned, it may be a bumpy ride though for both of us for awhile.
> 
> Becky


I think the advice Ann has given you should keep you going in the rite direction and the description you made of your pup very much describes the dog that was in our club. Jeff also gave you some decent advice on how to take charge of the dog. 
When I said be careful and since you are a first time handler of a working dog follow what Ann or your TD are telling you but don't flip flop be consistent in how you train. Dogs like this are a hand full again train consistently and you will have a clear training relationship.
My previous dog was very similar to what you may have and may go down in my history books as the best dog I have ever had. I made some stupid handling mistakes with our training relationship that I battled till the day he died. Despite me that ****en dog rocked every one watched when he was on the Schutzhund field.


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## Gerry Grimwood

kristin tresidder said:


> LOL! that refreshing breath of reality went well with my morning coffee!


]

How's that new pup ??


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## ann schnerre

she is beautiful!!

all i can say is that the best dog i've ever owned was a mutt (the older members here are tired of this story, but...), a GSDxRottie, and that dog, after 3 yrs, figured out that when i raised my fist and said "you see this?", she (yes a bitch), told me "yep, i do, what shall i do for you?" she didn't pee, she just paid attention.

she was a hard dog, could/would take a "crack in the head" as jeff puts it, but she needed it. in those days, i would bust her in the head to get her attention, but after 3 yrs of long-lines, attention-getters, and bruised knuckles, she was the best dog i've ever owned (to date). keep in mind, she was a baby in 1980.....and i wasn't training for sch, just a good "guard"/companion dog. and she was the best.

bottom line: dif dogs need dif training approaches. and all of 'em will teach you something new. if you know dogs, Anne will guide you thru this--she doesn't sell pups to ppl she doesn't think can handle them fr what i understand.

have FUN!!


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## Rebecca Samoska

Thanks Ann, I think she's gorgeous also. Anne is guiding me, she has stated though that I'm driving her to drink . Thank God she's there for me. She is going to have me up to help me learn a little about catching dogs also. I don't think I could have found a better breeder and guide.

I want to tell something I found funny....I read a thread here earlier about a dog and a vacuum. I feel for the dogs owner.

My pup and I took a nap on the floor, snuggled up to my vacuum this evening. I got tired of her trying to kill the green invader. They (the vacuum and Moska) are now the best of friends, though they had a rocky (and noisy) start.


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## Michele McAtee

If you were having fun with the vacuum, try bubbles, or the power washer. Have fun! lol. That lil pup you have is beautiful.

My first dog's name was Maska. (aka MochaJavaStrawberrrynose). Thanks for the good memory of her when I read your pup's name.


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## kristin tresidder

Gerry Grimwood said:


> ]
> 
> How's that new pup ??


he's great! despite almost 21 hours in travel home, he jumped down and started marching around my yard & into my house like he owned the place. no one has yet to convince him that he doesn't either... :twisted:


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## Rebecca Samoska

I figured I'd just update this thread, as most probably wouldn't even remember my first posts about my pup. 

Moska is now a little over 8 months old, and I'm having the time of my life with her. Maturity is really helping on her defensive reactions. They're much, much fewer, and oddly enough almost entirely on men. We're doing fairly well with our obedience, enough now that she's understanding that she needs to sit when strangers approach. I allow no one to just reach and pet though, she can still be unpredictable, if she decides they're threatening. If she does decide she wants to 'challenge' for a better word, I can correct for breaking the sit. 

She still can't be around children at all. I've not been able to convince her (except for a very few) that they're not little demons to be eliminated. Soccer moms want us no where around. It is a problem that I hope time and more maturity will, if not eliminate, at least lesson.

We're not doing much protection, just a little off and on. So far she seems to switch very easily between defense and prey. I'm very careful of who I allow to work her, her reactions can be very intense, and I don't want helpers to 'like' the defense that is so easy to bring out. I'm not really sure about this, but I believe she's too young to be allowed to go into it regularly (Am I wrong about this?).

My biggest problem is getting her attention once she rivets it on something. She's driven for sure. She also still loves to bite while playing with me. We're working on her aiming for the tug, and not the nearest part of me she can reach. Once she turned in midair as she realized the tug was too far away, and went straight for my stomach. Not an accidental bite, and we did have a discussion about that. She hasn't done that since.

She's redirected a few times while catching site of the helper, and become a buzzsaw, narrowly missing my legs. She's also one I don't kick the toy back to the helper with. She's not toy/sleeve fixated, and will watch the helper once the preys on the ground. She's a lot of fun, I love this dog (when she's not driving me nuts).

She's going to be small. About 55-60 pounds now, and a tad over weight. She's a little tank. Here she is looking no longer like a little baby.


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## Daryl Ehret

She looks fabulous! I'd not be too happy about the children part, though. Lots of controlled exposure sounds essential, and hopefully that improves with maturity as well.


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## Mike Scheiber

The few dogs I have seen from Alderstein have had a level of nerve/sharp and judging from the lines in her breeding program this is not a fluke not a bad thing they make great cop dogs but if your dog wants to eat kids and what not you have huge responsibility to ether keep the dog away from kids or work on it but hoping it will go away with maturity prolly ain't going to happen. 
If I remember rite your a first time owner of a dog like this or maybe first time even being around a dog like this you best be careful.


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## Timothy Saunders

had a mal like this and some good  corrections and more socializing worked. The biggest que is that she does this mostly to men and in your early post you said that it happended in the dark. I don't like when my dog tells me what to do i.e.who can approach and who can't.


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## Timothy Saunders

I forgot to add that I disagree with not to correcting the behavior. how does the the dog know that you don't want the behavior? to me making the dog sit helps focus the dog on the person coming to you. jmha


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## Rebecca Samoska

Thanks for the comments.

Daryl, I'm not happy about the children part either. I am very careful if any are about. I have been working her around softball games in the park, and she's much better than she used to be. I still don't allow any to approach her to pet, but as long as they ignore her and don't come right at her, she's now ignoring them. Maturity has made her view of what's a threat better, but it's still obviously there. I think she'll continue to judge threats better as she gets older. I'm pretty sure though that it'll always be there, and I'll always have to be on my toes with her.

Mike, your right. First dog like this for me, and I've not been around many like her either. If anything, I'm probably over careful!

Timothy, my first thoughts were exactly as yours. I thought, I don't like her lunging at innocent folks, so correct her aggression. My first few times of trying to 'leash' correct her, heightened her aggression. I've since been told by more than one trainer (and her breeder), that it's an innate part of her, this suspicion and desire to meet threats. If I punish for it, she'll learn to hide it, but it'll still be there. Then she'll learn to show no warnings, and I could fail to stop a bite. Since I am new to a dog like her, I don't want her hiding her warning signs. I've been told to (as a puppy) control her environment, then when OB becomes a reality, use that to control her reactions. Such as sit (and no breaking it) when people approach. 

I'm still learning with her, and trying to make as few mistakes as possible. Any threatening posture by almost anybody will make Moska become suspicious, and if the behavior doesn't end or go away, she'll go quickly into defense. We're making strides though in that she breaks her sit command less and less. I just have to tell folks not to reach for her at first. If they squat (or sit) and invite, she usually goes all puppy and loves them.

She's a very loving pup once she knows people, even to the point of being a pest for lap attention.

Little Miss Jeckle and Hyde.


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## Amanda Larson

Mike Scheiber said:


> The few dogs I have seen from Alderstein have had a level of nerve/sharp and judging from the lines in her breeding program this is not a fluke not a bad thing they make great cop dogs but if your dog wants to eat kids and what not you have huge responsibility to ether keep the dog away from kids or work on it but hoping it will go away with maturity prolly ain't going to happen.
> If I remember rite your a first time owner of a dog like this or maybe first time even being around a dog like this you best be careful.


Hi Mike!
I have the two dogs that Mike is talking about. To my knowledge, I don't think that he has ever seen either of the dogs around kids. Both of my Adler Stein dogs are fantastic around children and they have not been raised with children. They just seem to inherently like them. My nieces and nephews each have a different favorite.

Rebecca -
I would ask Anne her feelings about Moska and kids, she always has good advice. 
Mandy


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## Rebecca Samoska

Amanda Larson said:


> Hi Mike!
> I have the two dogs that Mike is talking about. To my knowledge, I don't think that he has ever seen either of the dogs around kids. Both of my Adler Stein dogs are fantastic around children and they have not been raised with children. They just seem to inherently like them. My nieces and nephews each have a different favorite.
> 
> Rebecca -
> I would ask Anne her feelings about Moska and kids, she always has good advice.
> Mandy


Mandy, I have talked with Anne (many times), and even she's surprised at how young Moska has shown her suspicious nature. Of course the time I went to train with her, Moska was nothing but sweet, so Anne never really saw her in action. Once she gets to know a child, she loves them. But kids she doesn't know she can't be trusted with at all. Anne mentioned the one kid Moska bit (she was 4 months), was showing slight fear, which brought her defensive side right out. She saw something odd about the boy (his nervousness) and reacted. Anne soundly scolded me for allowing the boy to even approach her when I saw he was fearful. He tried to reach down and hand her a treat, and she lunged (she was on lead) and caught his stomach with her tooth. Thank God it was only a bloody scratch, and his mom is a good training buddy of mine. If kids will sit down, and toss a toy or ball, they soon become best buddies. But unless they're children of parents that know working dogs, it's hard to recruit volunteers, and even these kids (most are willing) I don't feel right using. I'm really not sure how to handle this except with controlled socialization and extreme care.

Anne tells me not to put her in a position where she feels threatened, and to work on teaching her focus on me when we meet people. To teach her that meeting people means sitting by my side. Anne also tells me to learn to read people better, and keep the scary ones away from my pup. She says "learn to tell them, keep your hands off my dog", especially if they won't approach her the right way.


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## Timothy Saunders

i like the dog to try to hide and do what ever she wants to do that is how I know she understands that i don't want the behavior. then I put her in those positions that make her act up and give it to her good. know she looks to me to see if we agree about what is a threat. since i am now alerting her to what a threat is, she can react accordingly. this is not one of those things you let the dog figure out or hope maturity fixes it.


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## Daryl Ehret

One approach you might consider for socializing her; Have her in her crate, while you and a child or two play a game of scrabble or whatever. In near proximity, from the safety of her crate, she'll be able to observe the characteristics and mannerisms that make these little ones so different from adults. If it's just a familiarity issue that's causing nervous uncertainty, that's not so bad. Child aggressive dogs might make cop dogs, but IMO not "great" cop dogs. I don't know why anyone should want a total all-people-aggressive dog, much less a child-specific-aggressive dog.


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## Lee H Sternberg

Here is how I see it. I have a 2 plus year old female that that would bite her own mother. I have done it all in the way of socializing. That is the way she is, period.

She will try to run down anything for a bite including the only go-cart I ever saw in Costa Rica. That just took place yesterday.

You need to have eyes in the back of your head at all times. It helps to understand what triggers a dog like this which is anything that pisses it off or acts strange.

There is no other dog I would rather have at my side if weird circumstances. She has a hair trigger that maybe is not good in many circumstances.

This is not a expert opinion. I take this dog anywhere I don't want any shit. She is always ready for a brawl. I spent lots of time on controlling this instinct.

I have plenty of threads on this dog with plenty of varying opinions. She is what she is. I'm not ever going to change that "always ready to rumble mentality". 

I worked hard to understand all the descriptions of her temperament. I finally came to the conclusion that she just wants to bite whatever aggravates her at the moment which is most everything outside of the family environment.

To me it came down to harnessing that constant desire to bite everything and everybody.


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## Rebecca Samoska

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/members/daryl-ehret/ Daryl, I think hit it right on. Moska has not grown up with children, and when she does see them it's usually during a sport game such as softball. Kids running about screaming their heads off. She would benefit greatly from some seeing some calm normal children behavior. I really like this idea. 

Lee, that sounds like way too much dog for me! Moska is know where near like that. I wouldn't say she has a hair trigger, and she's actually come far in her understanding behavior she sees and not over reacting. I probably will always be aware of what's happening around us though. A friend brought his 3 little ones out today while he and I trained. Moska was very interested in them as they played nearby, and I'm happy to say showed no signs of any untoward behavior. Yeah Moska!


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## Daryl Ehret

I forgot to emphasize YOU interacting with the children as well, so she can read your vocal expressions and gestures around them. I've done similar with cats, and the dogs have greater respect for the cats, knowing that they are important to me.


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