# I call "bullshit!"



## Konnie Hein

Do we have another Scott Shields on our hands or??? "Found the last survivor" - what does that even mean??? And, if this gentleman lives in Los Angeles, how on earth were they among the first search and rescue teams to arrive at GZ? Gee, where have I heard that claim before? (insert eye-rolling emoticon here) 

Anybody know this guy?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080701/sc_afp/usattacksskoreaanimalcloneoffbeat

WASHINGTON (AFP) - A dog that sniffed out survivors from under the rubble of New York's World Trade Center after the 2001 terror strikes is to be cloned, the California-based firm conducting the procedure said. 
Trakr, a German shepherd who lives with his owner James Symington in Los Angeles, was picked by BioArts International as the most "clone-worthy" canine in a competition offering an owner a free chance to replicate their pet.
Symington said he and Trakr were among the first search and rescue teams to arrive at Ground Zero after the September 11 attacks, and were responsible for locating the last human survivor under about 30 feet (nine meters) of debris.
Now aged 15, the dog no longer has use of his back legs due to a degenerative neurological disorder. According to BioArts, experts believe the condition may be linked to exposure to toxic smoke at the World Trade Center site.
"Trakr means the world to me," Symington said. "To know that part of him is going to live on is just beyond words. It's the greatest gift I've ever received."
In the next month, BioArts said it would transport a sample of Trakr's DNA to the South Korean lab of its partner, the Sooam Biotech Research Foundation, and the clone could be ready by the end of this year.


----------



## Carol Boche

Don't know him and don't want to.....UGH!!!!! 
Train a NEW FRIGGING dog like the rest of us would have to do..........


----------



## Konnie Hein

And gee, great idea cloning a dog with degenerative myelopathy. Smart!


----------



## David Frost

Sounds like someone is trying to garner some sympathy money for his beloved and obviously irreplacable dog. What a crock. There is a website by the way that is tracking health of dogs that were at GZ. I dont have it on my home computer but I can post it tomorrow if anyone wants it. 

http://www.9-11dogs.org/

DFrost


----------



## Carol Boche

A friend of mine, Sara Atlas, was at 911 for quite a while with her dog. The dog she had there has since died from health issues and the dog was healthy before 911 deployment. 
Pretty sad.


----------



## Konnie Hein

So far, the health study on the 9/11 dogs has found no significant difference between the dogs who were at those sites (GZ and the Pentagon) and the general dog population. Certainly there are many dogs who were healthy before 9/11 and then subsequently developed health issues afterwards and died. Breeds commonly used for SAR (GSDs, Labs, Goldens, etc.) are plagued with health issues, so it's no surprise many of them are deceased this many years after the deployment.


----------



## Bob Scott

"Found the last survivor"! 
Were there any survivors actually found in 911? I was of the understanding that none were found alive by dogs. 
Hopefully I'm wrong.


----------



## Konnie Hein

Lou brought this up in another thread. He says there was a handler from Canada who found somebody. I have no knowledge of that, but have been trying to confirm it. 

Lou?


----------



## David Frost

Konnie Hein said:


> So far, the health study on the 9/11 dogs has found no significant difference between the dogs who were at those sites (GZ and the Pentagon) and the general dog population. Certainly there are many dogs who were healthy before 9/11 and then subsequently developed health issues afterwards and died. Breeds commonly used for SAR (GSDs, Labs, Goldens, etc.) are plagued with health issues, so it's no surprise many of them are deceased this many years after the deployment.


I've added the link to the study of GZ and Pentagon dogs. 


http://www.9-11dogs.org/


DFrost


----------



## Steve Strom

http://www.newswise.com/articles/view/515117/?sc=rsl

From this website I thought this was kinda funny.

**1. JAMES SYMINGTON is a search and rescue (SAR) incident manager, SAR dog expert and former 15-year police officer/SWAT leader. He can provide expert analysis on various issues, including efficient deployment of resources following disasters; disaster management and planning; avoiding multiple searches of the same area; experience of first responders; and the effectiveness of SAR dogs, including cadaver dogs, to locate victims in water. Following Sept. 11, Symington and his K-9 Trakr was one of the first K-9 teams to arrive at Ground Zero. In addition to recovering numerous victims, he is credited with finding the last survivor. Recently, Symington and Trakr were presented with the Extraordinary Service to Humanity Award by Dr. Jane Goodall and the* BEAR SAR Foundation for their heroic efforts.*


----------



## Konnie Hein

Steve - you're my hero for today!

Surprise, surprise that there's a connection to BSARF.

BTW - in case anybody didn't notice my posts on Leerburg's forum, Shields admitted his guilt in court to the charges against him. Sentencing is now scheduled for November, last I heard.


----------



## David Frost

Konnie Hein said:


> Steve - you're my hero for today!
> 
> Surprise, surprise that there's a connection to BSARF.
> 
> BTW - in case anybody didn't notice my posts on Leerburg's forum, Shields admitted his guilt in court to the charges against him. Sentencing is now scheduled for November, last I heard.


Glad to hear that. I only hope he gets a nice "cellie" named Bubba.

DFrost


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Good catch, Steve!


----------



## Konnie Hein

This guy must be the one Lou was talking about on the other thread. I just found an article that says he is a "retired Canadian police officer" and that's what Lou referred to the other day in one of our SAR threads.

Looooooouuuuuuu - time to tell the story here.....


----------



## Lou Castle

Konnie Hein said:


> This guy must be the one Lou was talking about on the other thread. I just found an article that says he is a "retired Canadian police officer" and that's what Lou referred to the other day in one of our SAR threads.
> 
> Looooooouuuuuuu - time to tell the story here.....


OK Connie but it's really not a K-9 story but instead one of an incredible series of coincidences. One member asked to hear the story in PM's because I didn't think that it was really suitable for a K-9 forum. But since you've asked. …

I haven't spoken with Josh in detail about this for years so I'm a little foggy on some of the details. The quotations are approximate. 

I met Josh at the first seminar ever that I was instructing at back in 1996. He was already a police K-9 trainer who had his own training facility. He was attending because he'd read some of my stuff on the Net and wanted to meet me. Some of his guys were attending the seminar and he wanted to see what was presented as well. We hit it off and became friends. Josh was a K-9 trainer for several police departments in the area and had his own patrol trained dog. I think he was a reserve with one of the departments 

He got a call from NYPD on 9-11 after the towers fell. They asked if he had a search dog. When they found out he did they said "Come on down." He told them that his dog was trained to bite people when he made the find, not bark, as a SAR dog does. Their response was "We don't care. We'll patch them up if you bite them. 

He got on the road with his own car which was equipped with red lights, siren, etc. In that part of the world the long haul truckers don't like "the Smokey's" because they give them tickets. On the CB radio the word was put out that he was "rolling code" and he was blocked several times. Fortunately Josh had a CB radio and he got on and told them where he was going and why. Suddenly the truckers became his friend. They ran relays ahead of him blocking the onramps so no one would interfere with him. 

When he arrived things were still pretty hectic. It was late in the afternoon of the 11th and they told him to report to Stuyvesant (sp?) High School. That was the initial CP but soon it was moved. There were no water or toilets working there. He went out almost immediately and started searching. I think he was initially assigned with an ESU (Emergency Services Unit) from NYPD but I'm not positive about that. 

Several years earlier Josh had come to California to be a trainer at a seminar that the police K-9 Association that I'd started was putting on. While he was out here he met a Palos Verde K-9 handler named Joe Hall. 

On 9-11 Joe was on vacation visiting a police K-9 handler that he knew who was from Canada. From the current news item that's floating around I now know his name, Jamie Symington. When they saw the towers fall they both piled into a car and raced to the scene. 

At some point while Josh was searching he heard someone yell "Hey I know you." It was Joe. He'd recognized Josh from the seminar. I don't know if they consciously decided to work the same vicinity, if they were assigned near each other or if it was just a coincidence; but at some point Symington or Hall told Josh that Symington's dog was "acting strangely" in a certain area and asked Josh if he'd run his dog in that area. Josh's dog started whining loudly in the same spot that Symington's dog had the behavior change. Neither dog gave their trained alert. Josh's dog was especially aggressive and would have been "eating rocks" if he couldn't get to the hidden person to bite him. 

Since neither dog gave their trained alert both handlers moved on. Neither wanted to call the behavior change "an alert" because there were so many dead bodies around and they didn't want to waste time having people dig for them. Neither dog was trained for cadaver. But Joe had seen this natural alerting behavior from both dogs in the same spot and thought that it was an indication that someone was alive there. He got some assistance and they started to dig while the handler moved along. About 75' down they found a rather large woman (300 lbs or so) who was a civilian employee of the Port Authority. She was the final person pulled from the debris. 

Long ago I found a news story that mentioned this is passing. The link is no longer active. It was about the last officer who was pulled from the debris retiring and there was but a single line that mentions this woman. It doesn't mention that she was located by a dog. 

Here's a quote from that news story from The NY Times dated June 10, 2004.


> Rescuers pulled McLoughlin from the wreckage about 22 hours after the twin towers collapsed, making him the last uniformed person rescued from the site where 2,749 others perished, said the Port Authority, which owns the trade center complex. *A woman was the last person pulled out, about two hours later, the authority said. * [Emphasis added]


Neither Josh nor Symington knew about the find at the time it was made. I don't know if Joe kept digging until she was found or if he was present when the find was made. I've got a call into him but he hasn't called back yet. 

About a month later Josh got a call from Symington who told him that he'd gotten a call from an attorney who asked some questions and then told him that the woman have been found where the dogs had alerted. 

Here's a link to a newsletter published by the Lunada Bay Homeowners Assn. that mentions Joe Hall. 
http://www.lbhoa.com/newsletters/2007_09-A.pdf



> 2001: Officer Joe Hall: Officer Hall is a member of the City of Palos Verdes Estates Police Department. While on vacation, Officer Hall rushed to New York to help the victims of 9/11. Officer Hall rescued the 5th and last survivor at the World Trade Center.


Here's a link that talks more about Symington and the "Joe Hall" connection. The story is about Symington and Josh is not mentioned. 
http://www.animalhelp.com/hometown/articledetail.cfm?artid=352



> On Sept. 11, 2001, Trakr was with his master, partner and handler, Constable Jamie Symington and his wife. The couple lived in Halifax, Nova Scotia. They were vacationing at the family's country cottage with another couple, Officer Joe Hall and his wife. At that time, Joe was a 21-year K-9 handler from the Palos Verdes Police Dept. in southern California. When the horrific news broke out about the terrorist attacks in NY, Joe and Jamie, without hesitation, packed their gear and drove for 15 hours. They got Trakr to Ground Zero by 3:00 a.m. on Sept. 12.
> 
> Jamie and Joe offered their skills to lead Trakr into the debri sight to look for victims. By 4:00 a.m. the trio started searching for survivors. Jamie, Joe and Trakr worked tirelessly as a reconnaissance team searching the dangerous, unstable, smoldering debris. Later that morning, Trakr gave the anxiously awaited signal - he had a live find. A rescue team started digging and by noon, they pulled one of the only five survivors, a woman, from the inferno of ashes, steel and wreckage.


Symington's story has a rather ugly ending.


> This may sound unjust and out of sync, but, ten days after Jamie and Trakr were viewed on TV at Ground Zero, Jamie's police department suspended him. The reason: for allegedly going to Ground Zero without permission during an extended leave. Jamie was asked to hand in his badge on Sept. 24, 2001. Jamie says, "I loved being an officer and it was my life; helping people was the reason I became a police officer." This combined with his love of dogs, is the reason Jamie became a K-9 handler. Everyone who knows Jamie knows that he was devastated to be treated so unfairly by his department. Suspension was only one of many unjust actions that Jamie was subjected to by his department in the days leading up to and following his heroic efforts at Ground Zero


This story goes on to describe how Symington fell from grace at his PD. They had a police of putting dog police dogs down when they retired. He successfully fought that policy only to have the department retire his dog very soon there after. 

An amazing set of coincidences happened in just the right order at just the right time to make it possible for this woman to have survived. Somebody must really like her to make the planets line up for her line that! 

So I think this thread is wrong in it's title.


----------



## Greg Leavitt

Carol Boche said:


> Don't know him and don't want to.....UGH!!!!!
> Train a NEW FRIGGING dog like the rest of us would have to do..........


He still would have to train a "new" dog. I think one of the weirdest things about cloning is people without thinking think its the same therefore knows everything and is exactly like the pet being replaced. However its still and animal thats has to grow and learn and have real world life shaping experiences. jmho


----------



## Konnie Hein

Lou Castle said:


> So I think this thread is wrong in it's title.


You're right - a long story for sure! Thanks for taking the time to post it though. You know, all the "official sources" (FEMA, NDSDF, etc.) all say no one was found alive by dogs. Perhaps that should change? From what I know of him, Josh has never been one to "toot his own horn," although he has every right to do so for a variety of reasons.

If a person is buried 75 feet below the surface of the rubble, it makes perfect sense that dogs not trained for disaster would not give their trained alert. Thankfully they gave some sort of indication they had something. I'm glad this woman was found, however, this is why I have a problem with using untrained (meaning not trained for disaster search) dogs at a disaster site. What if they just moved on and Joe never checked the area? This woman would have been left to die. FEMA has its issues for sure, but we train our dogs for these situations, and for the most part, the dogs/handlers know what the heck they're doing. Now that a lot of states have their own USAR teams, hopefully response times to disasters will decrease. 

I don't think the title of the thread is necessarily wrong. Perhaps it's wrong if it's referring to the find, but I still think cloning a dog who obviously has DM is bullshit. I think saying the dog's physical problems were caused by his participation in the search at GZ is bullshit. I think saying they were among the first canine teams to arrive at GZ is bullshit (why is this even noteworthy? I was unaware it was a competition). I think self-deploying to a disaster with no disaster training or an official invitation is bullshit. And, I think the award from BSARF is bullshit (maybe Symington thinks so too!!!).


----------



## Lou Castle

Konnie Hein said:


> You know, all the "official sources" (FEMA, NDSDF, etc.) all say no one was found alive by dogs. Perhaps that should change?


It probably should. Whether those groups are willing to admit that someone outside of them made the ONLY find that was done, is something else. 



Konnie Hein said:


> From what I know of him, Josh has never been one to "toot his own horn," although he has every right to do so for a variety of reasons.


You're right. If we weren't friends I'd never have known about it. He's been present on a couple of forums when someone had said that no dogs made any live finds at the WTC. He's just let the comments slide rather than get into arguments with those people. 



Konnie Hein said:


> If a person is buried 75 feet below the surface of the rubble, it makes perfect sense that dogs not trained for disaster would not give their trained alert. Thankfully they gave some sort of indication they had something. I'm glad this woman was found, however, this is why I have a problem with using untrained (meaning not trained for disaster search) dogs at a disaster site. What if they just moved on and Joe never checked the area? This woman would have been left to die.


Then she'd be no worse off than if the dogs hadn't been there. FEMA dogs weren't on scene at the time. One of the problems with any bureaucracy, especially if the Feds get involved, is that it takes time to get permission to call them. It takes them time for individual team members to be notified. And it takes them time to get together. Josh got a phone call from NYPD and was on the road in less than an hour. 

I'm certainly not trying to justify using dogs not specifically trained for this kind of work. But if these handlers and dogs had not responded, this woman probably would not have survived. 



Konnie Hein said:


> FEMA has its issues for sure, but we train our dogs for these situations, and for the most part, the dogs/handlers know what the heck they're doing.


How often do you train (and how about others ) for someone hidden 75' below the surface? I've been to quite a few rubble pile training sessions and have never seen it. I don't know that it's possible at a local level. And even at a "seminar level" it would be extremely difficult to set up properly. 



Konnie Hein said:


> I don't think the title of the thread is necessarily wrong. Perhaps it's wrong if it's referring to the find


That's how I took it. 



Konnie Hein said:


> but I still think cloning a dog who obviously has DM is bullshit. I think saying the dog's physical problems were caused by his participation in the search at GZ is bullshit.


I don't think you'll find many GSD's at 15 years old that have a biting background, who are of this size, who DON'T have some sort of spinal problems, DM included. I agree with your second statement though. 



Konnie Hein said:


> I think saying they were among the first canine teams to arrive at GZ is bullshit (why is this even noteworthy? I was unaware it was a competition).


I didn't take that as a brag. I took it as a statement of fact to appeal to the "human interest" side of the competition to be selected as a dog to be cloned. The company, wisely, wants to get as much publicity as they can out of this and having such a dog gives them this angle. I don't think it makes him any more "clone-worthy" than any other dog though. 



Konnie Hein said:


> I think self-deploying to a disaster with no disaster training or an official invitation is bullshit.


I think the woman who was rescued might disagree with you on this. Josh gave the person who called him a warning and a disclaimer but was told to come ahead anyway. Symington did self-deploy. I have no doubt that if they knew of his presence in such close proximity to the scene, that they'd have called him as well and gotten a similar disclaimer. 

Let's keep in mind that while neither dog was specifically trained for this kind of work, both dogs were trained for searching for live finds in just about every situation. I can't speak for Symington's training but Josh's was of the highest quality. He used nothing but top quality dogs (this dog was exceptional, I'd seen him work), trained and proofed for every conceivable situation and environment and worked and trained consistently. Remember, at this time he was a vendor/trainer with active clients and his own training facility. It's not like some pet owner with Fluffy the back-yard pet showed up and "went to work."


----------



## Mike Schoonbrood

> He still would have to train a "new" dog. I think one of the weirdest things about cloning is people without thinking think its the same therefore knows everything and is exactly like the pet being replaced. However its still and animal thats has to grow and learn and have real world life shaping experiences. jmho


Did you ever see the movie The 6th Day with Governor Schwarzenegger?

The concept of the movie is that, through cloning, people can be "saved." Their memories and everything up to the point the memories were recorded are implanted into the clone, and the clone walks around not knowing he is a clone, with all the knowledge, feelings, memories etc of the original.

What I think some stupid people don't realize, and what the movie pointed out at the end, and what really disturbed me about the whole cloning concept, is that this person (or dog) is not the same being. The dog/person that is dead, is dead like he would have been with or without cloning technology. He no longer exists and the clones existence has absolutely no benefit to the person, or dog, being cloned. The benefits of cloning are purely to satisfy a 3rd party.

I know, I'm stating the obvious  But I think some people really do forget that a clone is a clone is a clone. Not an extension of the original, but exactly the same as any other new puppy being born into the world, only he looks and acts exactly like the original. Of course, this begs the question: how much is nature and how much is nurture? What if the training and raising are not done exactly the same? Then surely it wouldn't even be the same dog or perform as the original?


----------



## Konnie Hein

Lou Castle said:


> Let's keep in mind that while neither dog was specifically trained for this kind of work, both dogs were trained for searching for live finds in just about every situation. I can't speak for Symington's training but Josh's was of the highest quality. He used nothing but top quality dogs (this dog was exceptional, I'd seen him work), trained and proofed for every conceivable situation and environment and worked and trained consistently. Remember, at this time he was a vendor/trainer with active clients and his own training facility. It's not like some pet owner with Fluffy the back-yard pet showed up and "went to work."


Absolutely. Josh is a top notch trainer.


----------



## Konnie Hein

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> I know, I'm stating the obvious  But I think some people really do forget that a clone is a clone is a clone. Not an extension of the original, but exactly the same as any other new puppy being born into the world, only he looks and acts exactly like the original.


I thought sometimes clones didn't even look or act like the original? Anybody know about this for sure?


----------



## Don Turnipseed

"I don'y lnow what the big deal is about a degen. disease at 105 yrs(dog years). We all should be so lucky. My knees are going, work related, and I am only sixty. These are working dogs. People make a big deal about HD. If the dog is 12...so what. That is 84 dog years. Getting old is in everyones future. If the dog was two, now that is a big deal.


----------



## Kim Gilmore

Lou Castle said:


> This story goes on to describe how Symington fell from grace at his PD. They had a police of putting dog police dogs down when they retired. He successfully fought that policy only to have the department retire his dog very soon there after.


I was pulling a contract up in Alberta during the 9/11 incident and Lou's story made me remember something along these lines. Although details sketchy, do remember that the treatment of Syminton by his Police Department was one of national disgrace and more than a passing word was said on the newscasts.

Think it was to keep the Canadian people happy that the PD opted to allow Symington to keep his dog.

Kim Gilmore


----------

