# Why do working breeds deteriorate if the lines are separate?



## Kalee Thao (Jul 30, 2012)

Why have working breeds such as Dobbies, Rotties, GSDs, Schnauzers, etc deteriorated if there are two separate lines: working and show?


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

What makes you think they have?
Not being smarmy genuinely interested in why you think this.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Kalee Thao said:


> Why have working breeds such as Dobbies, Rotties, GSDs, Schnauzers, etc deteriorated if there are two separate lines: working and show?


What makes you think they have? And what do you consider deterioration?


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## Kalee Thao (Jul 30, 2012)

I actually don't know much about this topic, which is why I'm asking here. A reason I thought they have is because I've been reading around the internet and it seems a lot of working dogs aren't what they used to be. I consider deterioration to be losing the drives, nerves, energy, etc that the breed used to have.


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Kalee Thao said:


> I actually don't know much about this topic, which is why I'm asking here. A reason I thought they have is because I've been reading around the internet and it seems a lot of working dogs aren't what they used to be. I consider deterioration to be losing the drives, nerves, energy, etc that the breed used to have.


 
And why do you think that deterioration happened? 

Let me give you a hint: 

Popularity, lack of breeding criteria, breeding to supply demand, people wanting dogs they read about but know nothing in real life... 

Then, because people who know nothing about the dogs in real life want one, unscrupulous breeders breed lower quality dogs to sell to those people... then, those people like the one dog they got and decide they should breed it to get "a son out of my special dog"... then, they advise other people to get one "because they're the world's best ever"...

Then, they end up at a pet shop as a mascot, instead of being on a field, competing and channeling their drives into something they were bred to do...

Does that make sense to you?


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

I would say working lines have not deteriorated they have just become fewer.
Once someone puts some usless crap into a line it is no longer a working line so that line essentially disappears.
You can find good working lines for all the breeds you mentioned you just maybe have to look harder/in another country.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

I mostly agree with what you say but I’ll take it a step further.
Were they originally actually bred to be competing on a field? No, I don’t think so. In my opinion the breeding of them to be on a field is the beginning of there “deterioration”. It was one of the steps prior to the pet store. 
Again this is just my opinion and just another way of maybe looking at things. But I will never be convinced that dog sports of any kind are “good” for the breed as a whole. Lets face it dog sports are for the people.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Kalee Thao said:


> I actually don't know much about this topic, which is why I'm asking here. A reason I thought they have is because I've been reading around the internet and it seems a lot of working dogs aren't what they used to be. I consider deterioration to be losing the drives, nerves, energy, etc that the breed used to have.


I think it's because people are selectively breeding to accent certain characteristics to meet certain task. Some people like a breed (looks, coat type, etc) or want certain behaviors so lines are selected that fulfill that need. If you demand it, someone will breed for it.


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

IF there is deterioration there are a variety of reasons: 

In Germany much less need for serous dogs doing serious work in police, border guards, etc. Face it the political winds there have turned VERY green. 

In sport, people breeding to the top point dog, not necessarily the best dog or the best dog for their bitch. 

Face it, the quality of training has advanced considerably. The downside to this is that the genetic faults of the dog can be masked. In addition more reward based training (not something I am opposed to) means that dogs of less quality can be trained to a relatively high level. These dogs in the past would have washed out and eliminated from the breeding pool. 

In sport, a dumbing down of the pressure levels that is put on dogs in trials. A friend of mine was doing helper work a few years back at a National event. The "teaching helper" who was overseeing the event tried to convince him to ease off pressure on the dogs. To pop the sleeve etc. For refusing to do this he is blackballed from certain events this type of people are in charge of. This kind of horseshit is extremely detrimental to the sport, and has the potential to harm the participating breeds as a whole. 

People who are not knowledgeable enough about breeding, and working dogs in general, not making the best choices in terms of a match for the bitch they are breeding.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Personal opinion:

Breeding (not all breeders) has veered from breeding for working street dogs towards dogs that do well on the field during competition.

Demand has changed, most people (not all!) want a dog that is good in work, good in competition but mostly these dogs will not perform well on the streets or in the militairy due to lack of fight for lack of a better word.

Dog training in general (again not all!) has veered from testing endurance to dulling down the pressure and overstuffing dogs with treats and candy.

I think Chris McDonald said it already, they are being bred for sports...which pretty much means they are being bred to people's demands on the sporting field. 

I'm not sure how to put it in the correct words but I hope to convey correctly what I mean. 

Dogs being bred these days are being bred to humanized standards... People want a strong dog, fast, quick to learn, high in drive, eager to please and fluffy and poochy when the mood suits them. 

Pretty much a fluffy pet that works the field. 

PSA: Please people, do not take offence to my view, I am talking in general as to what I have seen develop. I am in no way pointing fingers! 
(thought Id mention that before I get jumped on LOL)


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## Karen M Wood (Jun 23, 2012)

You only mention German breeds, what about other breeds of working dogs? 
Vast difference between a Field English setter and a Show English setter. One can still hunt and retrieve birds and the other is dumber them a box of rocks.
Same thing is happening to my breed of choice. The American Bulldog. Not that many people own working cattle ranches or live stock farms these days. So the interest in the breed has shifted to either hog dogs for live catches or man work sports. Both require different qualities in the dogs. And the biggest number of dogs are in pet homes. Thanks to Disney and "Homeward Bound" 
Honestly if a dog is truly a good specimen then that dog should be able to work, show, live with family and pass those genes off to the next generation. The people is always people. Our needs shift, Internet brings popularity to obscure breeds and puppy miller can write up great web pages making their dogs look like the best thing since butter and sliced bread.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i'm not sure i agree that working breeds who WORK, deteriorate 
- maybe because when you WORK the dog, and especially if it works professionally, health must always be a primary concern and studs and breeding bitches are selected more carefully ?

when the same breed only competes for looks and doesn't have to work anymore, i think they have always declined health wise. many factors as to why but it seems to be a constant. maybe it's as simple as working keeps a dog more healthy, but i'm, sure tight breeding might have something to do with it also, since many people feel mutts seem to have more genetic vigor than "pure"breeds ( i haven't seen a study done on this though )

i may be wrong, but if i am, please show me a show line of any breed that has more longevity and better overall health than the same breed who IS worked and bred for work


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Steve Burger said:


> IF there is deterioration there are a variety of reasons:
> 
> In Germany much less need for serous dogs doing serious work in police, border guards, etc. Face it the political winds there have turned VERY green.
> 
> ...


 
I agree

It's not so long ago that the protection work looked completely different. The dogs hit harder, didn't jump up and beg in the hide. Their barking was not like a pierced pig. Their tracking was probably no different as the requirements were similar.

However, they obeyed in obedience but the judges were only looking for correctness.

I would love to see IPO uprated. 

One grudge I have is that we are no longer allowed to use the tools for the trade, at least here in Switzerland we are not. Anything above a "fur saver" is not allowed. This is a total discrimination of handlers who have used every tool correctly. Obviously there have been cases where the dog has suffered but on the whole the handlers I trained with and knew of ( I have contact to a lot of Swiss Clubs) were fair. Some used methods that I would maybe not have used but let's face it, the dog determines how you have to train it. If your dog trusts you, you can if necessary use harder measures.

There will be more changes in the rules of dog sports to come and one thing absolutely disgusts me. This ban on certain tools, the way we handle our dogs, etc. will feed our "enemies" with fuel to go against us, ie denunciation. It has already happened here.

We will eventually all be "hung" for the odd sadists amongst us.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Alice Bezemer said:


> What makes you think they have? And what do you consider deterioration?


Well for starters when the beed cannot even be competitive in Dock dogs. That's a clue.


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

I don´t think the dog were better in older times, just look at some of the competitiondogs of 25-30 years ago and compare with today. Less people intressted in workingdogs, combined with a certain specialization for doing well according to the sportrules may on the other hand have created a smaller genepool and demand for dogs suited for service. Some paying to much focus on beauty also for workingdogs may also have caused problems because then you maybe are fine with a more mediocre dog as long as it has beauty. 

I guess a good trainer today can get much of a more mediocre dog, but I don´t necessarily think "modern" more rewardbase training is creating weaker dogs. On the contrary smarter training get better results with less conflicts, also better for those real strong dogs that won´t accept a clumsy "hard" handler. Also think it´s more impressive with a powerfull dog that shows speed, confidence and presence but still shows no signs of the stress and frustration you see in dogs that have been trained more with corrections and stimulation to increase the drives, for breeding I guess the last type of dog is also more tricky to judge what is natural drives and not.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Erik Berg said:


> I don´t think the dog were better in older times, just look at some of the competitiondogs of 25-30 years ago and compare with today.


Ding ding ding! That is the correct answer!


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Chris McDonald said:


> I mostly agree with what you say but I’ll take it a step further.
> Were they originally actually bred to be competing on a field? No, I don’t think so. In my opinion the breeding of them to be on a field is the beginning of there “deterioration”. It was one of the steps prior to the pet store.
> Again this is just my opinion and just another way of maybe looking at things. But I will never be convinced that dog sports of any kind are “good” for the breed as a whole. Lets face it dog sports are for the people.


Agreed. Also agree that insinuating that a NVBK Mal should be able to function as a pet shop mascot is serious step in the wrong direction. The aloof, one person working dog does not care to meet/greet anything and if he's worth his salt, he should be guarding the front door. So you want to train all that out to turn him into a trick golden retriever?

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

rick smith said:


> i'm not sure i agree that working breeds who WORK, deteriorate
> - maybe because when you WORK the dog, and especially if it works professionally, health must always be a primary concern and studs and breeding bitches are selected more carefully ?
> 
> when the same breed only competes for looks and doesn't have to work anymore, i think they have always declined health wise. many factors as to why but it seems to be a constant. maybe it's as simple as working keeps a dog more healthy, but i'm, sure tight breeding might have something to do with it also, since many people feel mutts seem to have more genetic vigor than "pure"breeds ( i haven't seen a study done on this though )
> ...


I think you are wrong. There are alot of assumptions about unhealthy show dogs. Mine don't have any less longevity than their working line counterparts. I should add, I've dealt too long with show breeders that cull health issues from the program and test religiously. Working--not so much or at all.

T


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

These topics get repeated over and over.
For those interested in a little bit more depth:

http://www.angelplace.net/Book/Ch18.pdf


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## Paul Westall (Apr 27, 2012)

Jim Engel said:


> These topics get repeated over and over.
> For those interested in a little bit more depth:
> 
> http://www.angelplace.net/Book/Ch18.pdf


Thanks for posting this link, very interesting.


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