# Reversing the Roles



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

How many folks are feeling like their dog is in control of them? I keep seeing posts with the hidden cry of help. When did you notice it, what type of breed is it, and what's happening now? Dogs will lead or follow and old dogs can still learn a new trick!:twisted:


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I don't think any of my dogs have ever been in control of me. However, I do recognize the fact that a dog can, at the most inopportune time, make a fool out of the handler. You last comment is a phrase I use often with new students. I'll tell them; funny thing about working a dog, there will be a leader, it's either going to be the dog or you; right now the dog is winning.

DFrost


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

David Frost said:


> I'll tell them; funny thing about working a dog, there will be a leader, it's either going to be the dog or you; right now the dog is winning.
> 
> DFrost


I gotta start writing all these "Frostism's" down! :-D


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## Will Kline (Jan 10, 2008)

David Frost said:


> I don't think any of my dogs have ever been in control of me. However, I do recognize the fact that a dog can, at the most inopportune time, make a fool out of the handler. You last comment is a phrase I use often with new students. I'll tell them; funny thing about working a dog, there will be a leader, it's either going to be the dog or you; right now the dog is winning.
> 
> DFrost


That really is a good one David. I agree with Matt, gotta start saving these for when you retire. That way they don't go the way of the dinosaur! :mrgreen:


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

David Frost;59220[SIZE=3 said:


> ]... funny thing about working a dog, there will be a leader, it's either going to be the dog or you; right now the dog is winning.[/SIZE]
> 
> DFrost


And the quote for the day boys and girls...very nice Mr. Frost!:-#


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## Will Kline (Jan 10, 2008)

Ok Howard, I know you are alway saying that you never have to use anything but positive training when dealing with dogs so here is my question.

When I am working my pup on the "out" whether it is with the tug or the freshly earned leg bite sleeve he just *DOES NOT WANT TO GIVE IT UP!* I call his name and tell him NO when he shakes it or gets growly but there have been times when it has taken 4-5 minutes to get him to let go only to have him re-attack as soon as I go to move it away. Repeat cycle.

He could care less about food when equipment is present. (I acknowledge that he is presently equipment fixated.) He also knows what he is supposed to do (out) because sometimes he does it right away, usually the first or second time, but after that he says "screw that I am not giving it up!" 

So, I am all ears on how you would address this problem without any form of negative correction. Reminder, he is Mali 5.5 months old now.


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## kim guidry (Jan 11, 2008)

This is a good one Howard. I was just reading the thread about the Rottie Rescue. I wonder what the previous owner let the dog get away with. Nancy said that the dog was a little overweight (my interpretation-He was not walked or played with, maybe was a couch potato eating potato chips) Now, I am not saying that I am perfect. I do not allow my dogs to sleep on my bed, but on a Saturday morning when I want to get a few extra zzz's it is real easy to let that one slip sometimes. My Yorkie can look at me with his black button eyes and I melt. But they also know when not to cross that line with me. 

I am not judging Nancy's friend and I do not know the persons situation. I just feel that life can change in a second and the majority of dogs that we deal with on this forum are not just lap dogs that can go to just any person. I feel that you can have fun and be relaxed with your dog. However, there are things that dogs should not be allowed to get away with.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Will at 4 1/2 months old as you know he really doesn't "know" the command. If he did, he would out all the time. Is he fixed in prey or is the growling more defense? We have a dog in our club that will hold the bite sleeve only because he doesn't want to slip it and start the fight again. Lots of handler stuff going on. 

How about using 2 sleeves or on the 2 bite give him a miss and put him away wanting more? I don't want to say that I *NEVER* keep it all positive, but 99% of the time it is. Sounds like you are going to have a kick a$$ dog later on, lots of fight to it. If you want to just cut your loss and get rid of it, I might find a home for it.:roll:


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

More positive stuff...*positively* kick him in his 5.5 month old a$$!

There, 100% positive reinforcement, and done with LOVE! Man I feel like Dr. Phil!


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## Will Kline (Jan 10, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> How about using 2 sleeves or on the 2 bite give him a miss and put him away wanting more? I don't want to say that I *NEVER* keep it all positive, but 99% of the time it is. Sounds like you are going to have a kick a$$ dog later on, lots of fight to it. If you want to just cut your loss and get rid of it, I might find a home for it.:roll:


 
He isn't in defense when he growls. It happens like this: he works the decoy, gets the sleeve and comes back to me. I pet him tell him good boy..yada yada. When it comes time to release the sleeve he doesn't want to do it. I can "bait and switch him" with a tug or another sleeve but as soon as you move the other item he latches onto it! 

When I try to out him he gets growly, chewy, and shakes his head, not always simultaneously. I figure he is chewy because he doesn't want to give up the prize but knows he is supposed to.

He doesn't seem possessive since he doesn't lunge at people who get to close when he has the item. He just locks down on the sleeve. He isn't afraid of the decoy either. When we come down to the training area he is barking his head off and going bonkers! Pulls so hard towards the decoy that the carpet upturns or does the accordion effect. (*training inside presently as single digit temps SUCK!*) 

In any event, while I do get frustrated at times, he is a riot to watch progress and play with. I just don't want my dog to be so worried about correction that he looks like he isn't having any fun. Right now he LOVES the work! I'd like to keep it that way! :-k

P.S. He could also care less about food when he has the sleeve in his mouth! I even went so far as to place the food against his nose..No Dice!!!


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Will since this dog is in *VERY HIGH* prey and a puppy, I wouldn't worry about the out command. Let him be the bad ass sleeve eater that it is. If it were mine, I would also do no real obedience with him. It must come, kennel, and do some basic things for safety. We have a GS puppy in our club, Zahn. It is 8 months old and knows NO fear and has NO environmental issues because we have done the training with it winning in *HIGH PREY*. 

The shaking and growling is its way of talking trash and trying to kill the sleeve. This thing will be a monster in 5 more months if you are careful and play your cards right. I would teach it how to target sleeves and bite jackets. *Put NO defense on it*. It is still a puppy and you want it to come out like a little cock of the block!

Since Mals mature faster than most breeds, start having the decoy putting body contact and stick strokes on it now. At 6-7 months a little defense while still in prey. At 8-9 months small easy winning courage tests, but let the puppy dominate the decoy 24/7. Obedeince can be done in 2 weeks, not formal stuff. You can also make him hungry for a tennis ball. 

For police work, you want a dog the LOVES the ball, high in prey/hunt drive. It will go through a brick wall to get a ball. I would love to see it! Will go slow dude I think you have something very special here....=D>


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

We had a very serious dog at club that refused to out when he came to us. He had been shocked, pinched, choked out, even kicked:evil: but he wanted to fight. It took 20-25 mins the first time he outed with the helper doing nothing but locking up. Over a period of about a month the dog was outing quite easily. 
Unfortunately he went back to a heavy handed trainer and resumed his "no out" to the point where he was going over, under and around the sleeve to get to the helper AND the handler. He was retired from competition. What a waste of a fantastic dog. 
This was/is a perfect example of a strong, serious dog that was worked by people that felt he "needed" to be muscled into control. 
I have one of his sons. At 9 months old he's a big clown :roll: . I'm keeping my fingers crossed. [-o<


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

Will…. I like to separate “out issues” into two different categories. 1) Out issues caused by lack of obedience or 2) Out issues caused by conflict. Sounds like your issue stems from the later. You said your dog responds well to “bait and switch”… but at some point will go back into that “possessive lock up”. I’m betting in his doggie mind he doesn’t think he will get it back if he gives it up.
I would build on the “bait and switch” success….. repetitive bite-out-down, bite-out-down…. Multi sleeve drills…. Self outs. I think you opened the door to fixing the problem already.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Bob when I hear stories like that it makes me mad. I for the life of me don't know why anyone NEEDS to strong arm a dog or anything else. It is about macho contol I'll bet. When the dog finally felt like there was no physical threat against it, did it remain largely clean prior to leaving. No cheap shots?

Matt good points on the self out. We let puppies hang on to the sleeve for as long as they want to hold it. Gives us decoys a break too! ](*,)


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## Chris Wild (Jan 30, 2008)

Matthew Grubb said:


> Will…. I like to separate “out issues” into two different categories. 1) Out issues caused by lack of obedience or 2) Out issues caused by conflict. Sounds like your issue stems from the later. You said your dog responds well to “bait and switch”… but at some point will go back into that “possessive lock up”. I’m betting in his doggie mind he doesn’t think he will get it back if he gives it up.


I agree. Sounds like the dog is in conflict (the growling being a good indicator of that). He understands the "out" command enough to know he should do it, yes. But he doesn't have the self control yet to be able to do it. Hence the conflict. This is common in young dogs and dogs with extreme drive levels. Their drive overloads to a point where they can't cap it and control it. When we try to force them to cap it and control it, something they're not capable of doing, it creates conflict with the dog because their drive is at odds with their inclination to obey the command. Then when handlers try to force the dog to comply using compulsion, as many people do, it all goes to hell rather quickly. 

When a dog has a tendency to overload (and I'm currently working one such dog myself), it's important for the handler (and helper/decoy) to make sure not to stimulate the dog to a level of drive that is beyond the dog's ability to function clearly. We all want our dogs in "high drive" but high drive without control and the ability to think and obey is useless. Push the dog a bit higher as he matures and gains experience so he develops more and more control, but don't set him up to fail by putting him in a drive state that's beyond his ability to work in.

For teaching outs, I like to teach the dog that the out is a way to restart the fun. I start this myself, and never do an out on the helper or slipped sleeve until the dog is 100% on the out when playing tug with me. When the dog is on the tug, I lock it up and make it immobile, command out, and then when the dog outs I make the tug come alive again and he gets to bite and fight again. Then lock up again and repeat. It usually doesn't take the dogs long to figure out that letting go of the boring, dead prey making it come alive again, and tugging and fighting is much more fun to them than just holding the object. This makes the out a GOOD thing because it restarts the fun, rather than a bad thing of having to give up the prey. Then about 9 out of 10 times the fun restarts as soon as the dog outs. Only 1 out of 10 times is the prey taken away. Dogs,being compulsive gamblers,are going to bet on the odds that it will be one of those 9-1 chances and let go on command.

The first few times it can take a LOT of patience to wait out the dog for him to let go. And if his drive is too high for him to be able to let go, you've got to wait for it to come down a bit. With experience you learn to read your dog and know when he's capable of complying with the command.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Reversing roles is what I went through with my male Bouvier a year ago. The female came in heat at one year and the male went stupid. "Down" was just another word he didn't understand in the English language. It wasn't that he didn't know it, he didn't want to submit to a higher pack leader. DOMINANCE not a misunderstanding was the issue.

We then went on lots of "walks and talks." We would walk and I would command, "Down" and if it wasn't quick, he got redirected to planet Earth! This is one of few times when "positive" got pitched out the window. Within a few days Mr. Weiner found that doing well got my positive attention and that I didn't need his co-leadership skills. 

There are few times when I can say beating a dog got the job done. Any half minded person can do it. It takes a "thinker" to be able to problem solve and grow through pain. *Before you can correct, you must have some mastery of the topic.* I break training down into 4 steps: 1) *Train it*, teach the unknown to something that never saw it before. Steps are small and always building. 2) *Test it*, simply ask and see if it resopnds with the correct answer or behavior. 3) *Proof it*, using different "what-if scenarios" you are trying to cheat it into failure. Like trick questions used by a teacher in school. 4) Lastly, now you can *correct it*. You can't correct what you don't understand. When you have an understanding of the task, the behavior or outcome you want, you've proofed it through several scenarios, then and only then can the step of correcting allow you to say without question, "Well done Grasshopper!"


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## Will Kline (Jan 10, 2008)

Chris Wild said:


> For teaching outs, I like to teach the dog that the out is a way to restart the fun. I start this myself, and never do an out on the helper or slipped sleeve until the dog is 100% on the out when playing tug with me. When the dog is on the tug, I lock it up and make it immobile, command out, and then when the dog outs I make the tug come alive again and he gets to bite and fight again. Then lock up again and repeat. It usually doesn't take the dogs long to figure out that letting go of the boring, dead prey making it come alive again, and tugging and fighting is much more fun to them than just holding the object. This makes the out a GOOD thing because it restarts the fun, rather than a bad thing of having to give up the prey. Then about 9 out of 10 times the fun restarts as soon as the dog outs. Only 1 out of 10 times is the prey taken away. Dogs,being compulsive gamblers,are going to bet on the odds that it will be one of those 9-1 chances and let go on command.
> 
> The first few times it can take a LOT of patience to wait out the dog for him to let go. And if his drive is too high for him to be able to let go, you've got to wait for it to come down a bit. With experience you learn to read your dog and know when he's capable of complying with the command.


Chris, this has been my approach and the tug use is how I KNOW he knows the proper response. As I said in an earlier post, I wait until he gives in! We actually spent over 14 minutes doing the "I can wait you out" test as I continuosly commmanded the out.! ](*,) 
We do it a few times and only quit after we have successfully completed the task to reinforce the behavior. I don't quit on the first success though. I think in the end I am going to end up doing this alot more with him and I noticed that he is much more inclined to aquiesce after he successfully outs and I praise him and then throw it away from us a bit so he can chase it, grab it and bring it back. 

Thanks to everyone for all the input!!! :wink:


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## Will Kline (Jan 10, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Will since this dog is in *VERY HIGH* prey and a puppy, I wouldn't worry about the out command. Let him be the bad ass sleeve eater that it is. If it were mine, I would also do no real obedience with him. It must come, kennel, and do some basic things for safety.
> 
> The shaking and growling is its way of talking trash and trying to kill the sleeve. This thing will be a monster in 5 more months if you are careful and play your cards right. I would teach it how to target sleeves and bite jackets. *Put NO defense on it*. It is still a puppy and you want it to come out like a little cock of the block!
> 
> For police work, you want a dog the LOVES the ball, high in prey/hunt drive. It will go through a brick wall to get a ball. I would love to see it! Will go slow dude I think you have something very special here....=D>


Howard, I agree with you about the OB. He knows come, inside (his command to go anywhere I point, usually for his crate), stop, let me see (my command to stay still while I look/touch/inspect/manipulate him, and we are working on the stay. He does the stay well so long as I do not move because then he is coming after me. No worries about that though. I want a dog that LOVES to work and doesn't get that "oh crap I better look for approval look before I do ANYTHING". 

The only thing that is a concern right now is his tendancy to want to jump up and either "muzzle punch" or nip at people. Not in a menacing manner but in play but I just can't allow that to happen. He also wants to chase after and nip at joggers when they pass us if we are out on a walk as if he is herding them. Most of them end up causing the problem by bending down and cooing saying awww what a cute puppy to which I explain he is in training and is still a puppy that likes to get a bit rough so please do not do that. :roll: 

As far as defense goes...not gonna happen. *He is going to win, win, win! I want a confident lil guy to grow into a VERY CONFIDENT good sized guy!* :mrgreen:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Bob when I hear stories like that it makes me mad. I for the life of me don't know why anyone NEEDS to strong arm a dog or anything else. It is about macho contol I'll bet. When the dog finally felt like there was no physical threat against it, did it remain largely clean prior to leaving. No cheap shots?
> 
> Matt good points on the self out. We let puppies hang on to the sleeve for as long as they want to hold it. Gives us decoys a break too! ](*,)


Yes! After he was with us he was clean as a whistle. The dog is quite clear headed about threat. I do believe he enjoyed the "sport" but when it got real to him he was ready for whatever could be tossed at him and was more then willng to toss it back. Would have been a hell of a street dog, IMO. He's now a fantastic SchHIII KKL I house dog to the guys wife. I do believe he would be safe in the general public. Just to much $#!+ training from to many different people. 
I would also add that one of this dog's canines was knocked out by some wonder trainer that tried to "convince" him to out.
This is one of the dogs that convinced me that true leadership over a powerhouse dog has nothing to do with power. He responded very well to fair treatment.


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Matt good points on the self out. We let puppies hang on to the sleeve for as long as they want to hold it. Gives us decoys a break too! ](*,)


Last self out I worked was in a suit with a Terv..... 32 mins for the first out, 27 for the second. I pulled every muscle in my back and was laid up for two days... but we got him out!!! =D>


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Reversing roles is what I went through with my male Bouvier a year ago. The female came in heat at one year and the male went stupid. "Down" was just another word he didn't understand in the English language. It wasn't that he didn't know it, he didn't want to submit to a higher pack leader. DOMINANCE not a misunderstanding was the issue.


Works that way with my Female to when she went into heat the last time. She wouldn't respond to simple commands the only thing she could do OB with any consistency was just heel looking off into space. 

Bite work though she was a total nutbar, she wanted to beat on the decoy bad, lots of aggression. To me it wasn't dominance it was hormones making her goofy. Only lasted the first 2-3 days of her heat so we didn't lose a lot of real training time. 



Will Kline said:


> As far as defense goes...not gonna happen. *He is going to win, win, win! I want a confident lil guy to grow into a VERY CONFIDENT good sized guy!* :mrgreen:


That's what our French Ring coach preaches to us time and time again. It's all about being patient and letting the dog become confident in its abilities and also to become confident in us handlers. It really becomes a two way street being fair and once you know the rules of what techniques you are training and apply them consistently the dog picks up on that and becomes more confident itself. 



Bob Scott said:


> We had a very serious dog at club that refused to out when he came to us. He had been shocked, pinched, choked out, even kicked:evil: but he wanted to fight. It took 20-25 mins the first time he outed with the helper doing nothing but locking up. Over a period of about a month the dog was outing quite easily.
> 
> Unfortunately he went back to a heavy handed trainer and resumed his "no out" to the point where he was going over, under and around the sleeve to get to the helper AND the handler. He was retired from competition. What a waste of a fantastic dog. This was/is a perfect example of a strong, serious dog that was worked by people that felt he "needed" to be muscled into control.
> I have one of his sons. At 9 months old he's a big clown :roll: . I'm keeping my fingers crossed. [-o<


As Bob points out you get what you put in .. his story here is a classic example of B.S. training ruining a dog.


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## Chris Wild (Jan 30, 2008)

Will Kline said:


> Chris, this has been my approach and the tug use is how I KNOW he knows the proper response. As I said in an earlier post, I wait until he gives in! We actually spent over 14 minutes doing the "I can wait you out" test as I continuosly commmanded the out!


Will, one thing I would change here and that might help you is to stop continuously commanding the "out". Here's why:

It can desensitize him to the command by letting him practice ignoring it. The command is "out". Not "out, out, out, out, out, out......" Sometimes allowing multiple commands and other times enforcing on the first command introduces a gray area and the dog finds himself asking "when do I have to mind the first time and when can I get away without doing so?" Dogs deal much better in black/white than in gray, and that's not a question you want your dog to be asking.

Every time you tell him "out" you are feeding him more energy. Especially if, as we handlers tend to do, you're getting frustrated and aggitated and your voice reflects that. When he's in a state of overdrive, the last thing he needs is more energy to deal with. It just adds to the conflict. Remain perfectly neutral and calm and don't say anything and don't move. Just stand there.

It takes some experience to be able to read your dog to know when he's clear headed again and able to obey a command vs when he's still overloaded in a drive state that will make him unable to comply. This is a good opportunity for you to develop that skill. Watch his face and his body. When he relaxes and his eyes clear, he's back on the same plane of reality where you are. Then, and only then, can his brain process the out command properly and obey it. That's the time to give a single clear, firm, "out!"


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## Will Kline (Jan 10, 2008)

Chris Wild said:


> The command is "out". Not "out, out, out, out, out, out......" Sometimes allowing multiple commands and other times enforcing on the first command introduces a gray area and the dog finds himself asking "when do I have to mind the first time and when can I get away without doing so?"
> Every time you tell him "out" you are feeding him more energy. Especially if, as we handlers tend to do, you're getting frustrated and aggitated and your voice reflects that. When he's in a state of overdrive, the last thing he needs is more energy to deal with. It just adds to the conflict. Remain perfectly neutral and calm and don't say anything and don't move. Just stand there.
> 
> It takes some experience to be able to read your dog to know when he's clear headed again and able to obey a command vs when he's still overloaded in a drive state that will make him unable to comply. This is a good opportunity for you to develop that skill. Watch his face and his body. When he relaxes and his eyes clear, he's back on the same plane of reality where you are. Then, and only then, can his brain process the out command properly and obey it. That's the time to give a single clear, firm, "out!"


Sounds good Chris just need some clarification on one of your points: When I command his out how long do you wait until you give the command again if he doesn't comply? I mean I know you said wait until he shows signs of lowering his drive and clears his head but do you mean just sit there silently for the duration until that occurs? I didn't mean to isinuate that I was like a jabber jaws CD skipping "out machine" :wink: but I was saying the out waiting for a response, if he sat still I just sat still, if he growled or shook his head I would then say NO then tell him to out again.

I completely understand the energy conveyed point you make and have to admit that sometimes I begin to laugh and have to bite my lip because he is so determined. I know that my voice inflections do get a bit more stern when he regrips right onto my hand(which I don't enjoy) but I hold my ground and try to again calm myself down before I give the command again.


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## Chris Wild (Jan 30, 2008)

Will Kline said:


> Sounds good Chris just need some clarification on one of your points: When I command his out how long do you wait until you give the command again if he doesn't comply? I mean I know you said wait until he shows signs of lowering his drive and clears his head but do you mean just sit there silently for the duration until that occurs?


 
Yeah, pretty much. 
How long to wait is hard to say as it depends on the dog. Basically I'm looking for cues from the dog that tell me he's ready. I've had it take several minutes only to give the command and find out I was wrong and he wasn't ready, and then have to wait a couple more minutes before I try again.

I went through this with Della. And this was with an 18mo bitch (in EVERY sense of that term) that had no training or discipline prior to when I started working with her. And one with a predisposition to handler aggression so any compulsion on my part to try to make her out, or any energy I fed her to make her more hectic would make her come off the tug and right onto my arm.

It took a few sessions of having the patience of a saint, but paid off in the long run. She now outs beautifully, with that expectant look on her face waiting for the game to begin again, and I got to keep all my fingers. And now on the rare occasion where she is being stubborn and doesn't obey immediately, I can correct her, and since she understands the correction she doesn't have a problem with it.



Will Kline said:


> I didn't mean to isinuate that I was like a jabber jaws CD skipping "out machine" :wink: but I was saying the out waiting for a response, if he sat still I just sat still, if he growled or shook his head I would then say NO then tell him to out again.


If you think he's ready to respond, say "out". If he doesn't comply, wait a bit longer and try again. If you have to say it a couple times before you get the response, that's ok. I was just cautioning against the broken record thing. 

I wouldn't tell him "no" if he starts shaking or growling though. Again it will feed him energy and give more conflict. Now instead of the "I should" and "but I can't" conflict inside his head, you're just adding "oh @#$%, dad's mad at me too!" to the mix, adn that makes more conflict. Any sort of correction, verbal or physical, will do that unless it's a harsh correction that is severe enough to completely send the dog out of drive and make him comply.. but that's not appropriate for a pup. 



Will Kline said:


> I completely understand the energy conveyed point you make and have to admit that sometimes I begin to laugh and have to bite my lip because he is so determined. I know that my voice inflections do get a bit more stern when he regrips right onto my hand(which I don't enjoy) but I hold my ground and try to again calm myself down before I give the command again.


No, no, bad handler! 

It's hard, I know. Especially since our dogs are so observant that it's very difficult to fool them. If we're amused, or frustrated, we can't fool them. But it's so hard not to be amused and/or frustrated when they do these things!


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## Will Kline (Jan 10, 2008)

Thanks again Chris for all the advice. I really do appreciate the help that I am able to get from people who have vastly more experience than I do with working dogs! :-D 

That is one of the primary reasons I enjoy this board so much. People with TONS of experience that really do want to help one another succeed. 8)

My TD is super and I respect his ideas immensely but I still like to go out and garner other opinions to see how they all compare, then I am able to either get a better picture in my head of what should be done or learn something prior to my encountering it and thus be better prepared to handle it if something should arise.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

I am still going back to the point that this is a *5 1/2 month old puppy*. Why even out? Let it own the sleeve and out when it is ready to play again, enjoy the "kill." Too much pressure is going to push it into crazy bite habits...conflict! Just MO


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## Will Kline (Jan 10, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> I am still going back to the point that this is a *5 1/2 month old puppy*. Why even out? Let it own the sleeve and out when it is ready to play again, enjoy the "kill." Too much pressure is going to push it into crazy bite habits...conflict! Just MO


I respect your opinion and I hear you Howard. I am going to be doing just that when he and I are training on our own and I will have to see what the TD wants to do during our sessions. Last time we left him to "enjoy the kill" he actually stayed downstairs with the tug for over 30 minutes until he eventually got bored even after we all went upstairs and left him to be alone hoping he would follow.

Truth be told I am not wanting to push him to hard or fast as he isn't even able to compete for over a year to come.


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