# Really like this take down.



## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Love this take down at 1min 18 secs +
Do you think it is trained?
Or just a lucky shot?
How would one go about training such a skill?

Here is the vid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETjsOF_X9yQ

Thanks.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

I think that take down comes more from a lack of technique in the decoy than good technique from the dog. The decoy should not let the dog hit him coming straight in from the back. He should move so the dog hits at more of an angle.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

There are was to teach a dog technique to take down decoys on a flee, however in that situation I think it was more a case of a newbie decoy not knowing how to catch the dog. It was a nice save by the decoy when he went down though, I like to see that.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Yes agreed good save, I thought he was going to land on the dogs back for a second.
I wasn't sure if the dog had done on purpose, I have seen dobes shoulder barge decoys before when muzzled so that got me thinking.
If you could teach the dog to take the leg forward and barge the other leg, the decoy should go down in a similar way to that one did everytime, missing the dogs back, like K9 jujitsu, lol.

The dog does it again at 1min 44secs but it's at walking pace so doesn't have the momentum to take him down.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Matt Vandart said:


> If you could teach the dog to take the leg forward and barge the other leg, the decoy should go down in a similar way to that one did everytime, missing the dogs back, like K9 jujitsu, lol.


This works and there are techniques to train it, but IMO it's a mistake to do it. You are hoping with every send that each decoy the dog takes down doesn't land right on top of your dog and injure him, and you are hoping (I hope) that the decoy doesn't get injured in the process of trying to not injure your dog. 

I am personally not a fan of the flee, and would love to see it removed from the Ringsports. I haven't seen a dog yet that would do a face and not do a flee, although some dogs will do the flee but not a face. So replace it with another face, safer for the dog and decoy, and more of a test.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Cool, thanks for input. I can see where you are coming from. 
I am thinking more for PD use as a fleeing take down is fairly common.
I know there are other targets (shoulder/tricep for one) but this could be very effective and more 'open' target for takedown, I think, if trained correctly and more useful for the smaller dog. 
I am just musing out loud I think......


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Matt Vandart said:


> I am thinking more for PD use as a fleeing take down is fairly common.
> I know there are other targets (shoulder/tricep for one) but this could be very effective and more 'open' target for takedown, I think, if trained correctly and more useful for the smaller dog.
> I am just musing out loud I think......


Musing back at you  it's an interesting thought. Leg bites on a fleeing suspect would be effective for taking them down, the more the person is just running vs catching, the more likely they are to go down. From a tactical standpoint it would be interesting to look at when a leg bite takes a person down, vs an upper body bite, how often is the dog landed on? I would think whichever location was more likely to take them down, without the dog being on the bottom in the end, would be the target to teach. I think generally when a dog goes to the back of the upper arm and throws their body out and around, so they basically spin the decoy like a top on impact, they are least likely to be landed on, but I'd have to go back and watch videos. For a leg bite that was intended to take the person down with the least risk to the dog, I'd consider teaching the dog to bite low on the leg, below the knee, and then put the brakes on. Basically like catching their foot and stopping it, would tend to make the person go down face first, without landing on the dog, and also make it hard for them to get back up.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

What would be really cool would be to teach the dog to take the leg low down as you say just as the weight is about to transfer into that leg, they would hit the ground face first like a ton of shit, ROFL.
Would be cool if any of the LE people on here gave their opinion.


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## Tim Lynam (Jun 12, 2009)

From a sport point of view, I agree with Kadi. The potential for disaster is too great in the flee for both the dog and decoy. Geez, what trained dog wouldn’t relish the thought of chasing a bad guy...??? By the way, I had a dog grab me above the back of my knee just as I was planting my foot, and stop. I didn’t go down but he did hyperextend my knee. A split second later and he would have been kicked.

As for PP work, train to initially grab his ass to slow him down, then release when needed to counter attack any defensive attempts by the bad guy.

Gonna have to have the LE people chime in to get an opinion on what is “allowed” liability wise...


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## dewon fields (Apr 5, 2009)

How many dogs have y'all seen hurt in all your years of training? Probably not many. I've seen more decoys hurt than dogs. Just bred slow dog to slow dog? Many breed for fast hard hitting dogs. I never heard a breeder say," this stong dog hits to hard-let's not breed him". IMO as long as dog fanciers are breeding these fastlane sport dogs accidents will happen face or flee. 

These mofos are reckless, w experienced decoys. 
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Efytqd7JRCw&feature=related


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## Tim Lynam (Jun 12, 2009)

dewon fields said:


> How many dogs have y'all seen hurt in all your years of training? Probably not many. I've seen more decoys hurt than dogs. Just bred slow dog to slow dog? Many breed for fast hard hitting dogs. I never heard a breeder say," this stong dog hits to hard-let's not breed him". IMO as long as dog fanciers are breeding these fastlane sport dogs accidents will happen face or flee.
> 
> These mofos are reckless, w experienced decoys.
> http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Efytqd7JRCw&feature=related


A fast dog can be trained to check their speed the last few strides in order to counter the decoy's targeting/esquive skills, then explode again to grip their own choice of target. I personally, found the rocket dogs were the easiest to target and esquive due to the laws of inertia. Once I had them targeted at 5 meters or less they just couldn't change when that target disappeared...

The explosive speed should be used at close range for escapes, handler defense and object guard etc.

As for injuries to the dogs I only saw one break a leg from the decoy falling on it. Dogs seem to be pretty robust when in comes to large prey animals falling, kicking etc. Most dog injuries I saw were teeth and neck related due to their speed on entry...

As for the video, the first decoy shouldn't have been looking over his shoulder all the time, for a couple reasons. He paid for it. The rest are good examples of fast dogs committing to the laws of inertia...


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

dewon fields said:


> How many dogs have y'all seen hurt in all your years of training? Probably not many.


Hurt how badly? I have seen multiple dogs carried off the field, I knew a handler who's dog's back was broken (wasn't there when it happened, saw the handler about a week later), and I've seen lots of less severe injuries. Seen quite a few come up after having been landed on 3 legged or with a solid limp. Lots of neck, back and shoulder injuries that weren't career enders but did take some time for the dog to recover from. There are also many minor injuries that handlers don't even notice that still build up over time, most of the working dogs I know die in old age of injury related issues while their non-working relatives live 2-4 years longer and die of "old age" issues (organ failure, etc). I think people might be surprised what sort of condition their working dogs are actually in, they are very good at hiding pain and more than willing to work through it if they have the right drives.

I personally suffered some pretty severe ligament damage in my knee and know many other decoys who have had a wide variety of injuries, ligaments, broken bones, torn muscles, etc.

While I agree any attack has a risk factor, I think the risk factor is lowered for both the dog and decoy if the decoy is actually facing the dog and able to read and react vs not facing the dog and trying to read/react based on a glimpse over their shoulder, the sounds of the dog coming in, etc.


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

I am a fan of the flee attack. I enjoy doing them. I have seen a few dogs landed on and a few get hurt and a few decoys get hurt. But in the amount of trials compared to the amount of wrecks the wrecks were minimal.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Daniel Lybbert said:


> I am a fan of the flee attack.


Do you think the flee shows anything about the dog that isn't shown elsewhere, or that a second face couldn't show? And if so, what?

I'd love to see the flee gotten rid of and replaced with another face. If I had my choice, a face with accessories or water to test the dog a little environmentally.


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

Some of it might be decoy skill, but I think the surface they are on plays a roll too. Watch at 1:35ish when he's trying to get up, he has a hard time planting that foot and get up and dirt is being pushed around. 

As far as a a street dog and liability. The minimum amount of force necessary to effect the arrest. I think the idea that was floated about grabbing a buttocks to slow the guy down then recommitting somewhere else is a bad idea. Now you have two bites on the guy. Twice as many stitches (in theory). Maybe it's justified maybe it's not. For street purposes an arm target is best IMO. The hands (or something in them) are what will hurt the dog or the handler if the dog is on an arm, you have at least hampered the ability of one of the hands to hurt someone. Not saying legs is not a bad target, if that's what's available they should take it, but IMO an arm is preferred.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Matt Vandart said:


> Love this take down at 1min 18 secs +
> Do you think it is trained?
> Or just a lucky shot?
> How would one go about training such a skill?
> ...


It's all about speed or velocity differential i.e a dog doing 15-20kmh or more faster than you are and hitting you in the cup of the knee. By “velocity”, I'm referring to the total velocity of the dog and decoy/HA at the time the bite occurs. With an HA running at maximum speed, maybe 15-17kmh for the sake of conversation, it doesn't take a tremendous amount of force from the impact of the dog to cause a loss of footing, and make for a spectacular fall. Any normal Ring dog, can easily be traveling 20+kmh faster than the decoy at the time of the impact. It is even worse with a dog who is a banger. 

Often, they can impact the decoy with more than enough force, and the fall following the impact is an uncontrolled event with the very real potential to injure both dog and decoy. Many Malinois can be at full speed in 3-4 strides so even doing short flees can be surprisingly tricky. My older dog basically almost had her career ended by a HA falling on her back from a flee from 4-5m. She competed after and got 2 national championships but she was never the same, it ruined her from being able to go to Level 3 due to the jumps even after many trips for chiro and acupuncture. 

Luckily, the rules for the Flee are very specific, and seem tailor made to minimize the distance at which the bite occurs, minimizing total velocity and velocity differential, and thus minimizing the chance of injurious crashes that result from them.

Under the rules for trial, the HA is to begin the exercise 10 meters from the line of departure, and when the decoy has crossed the five-meter dashed line, the judge authorizes the handler to send the dog. The handler must send the dog directly without undue delay. Clearly then, doing the exercise in this way should minimize the risk of unfortunate outcomes. Achieving that higher degree of safety requires a few essential elements of the decoy’s performance, as follows:

1) The HA must keep a very low running speed away from the starting point at the ten-meter line. I often describe this to decoys as a speed somewhere in between running in place, and a jog. 

2) The HA must maintain that slow running speed until the dog reaches a point that will vary in the exact distance from the decoy, but is approximately five meters behind him or her. When the dog reaches that “critical distance” point, the decoy must turn his or her shoulders fully toward the front, LEAN FORWARD, and drive forward with explosively powerful acceleration steps. Up to the point that the dog reaches the critical distance, the decoy may continue to look back at the dog. 

3) Of supreme importance is that the HA must continue to accelerate explosively, with a small change of direction with a forward posture up to and through the point that the dog is on the bite. Ordinarily when this procedure is correctly executed by a skilled decoy, there are only a few steps of acceleration, but they are enough to do the job. Many people might be thinking at this point that the sequence of events I’ve just described doesn't sound like it would work but it does.


The reasons that the sequence of events I described above works well relates to a few main factors:


1) The rules of French Ringsport keeps the total distance of the exercise down to less than 25 meters that minimizes the distance over which the dog can accelerate to top speed. 

2) The HA’s slow speed downfield causes the dog not to accelerate as hard as it could, or to even begin to slow slightly in some cases just about the time the decoy starts to turn away into the slight 'J' hook from the dog while he/she is accelerating explosively. 

3) The HA’s increasing speed at the time the dog enters the bite, with the possibly reduced speed of the dog caused by the decoy’s apparently slow running speed, serves to minimize the velocity differential between the dog and decoy at the time of the impact. 

Even if all of these measures are implemented perfectly, sometimes it is very difficult or impossible to keep your footing at the entry. Some things to think about to help the HA stay upright are:

1) Balance themselves in such a way that in addition to having a forward posture (upper body weight forward) when explosively accelerating at the last instant, they also have the ability to let the impact “take you for a ride.” Sometimes in this way they can actually float a few extra feet through the air from the momentum the dog transfers into their body. It’s kind of like an extra long stride, and if they can ride it out successfully, they can have some very smooth Flees. This way it minimizes the chance of the dog taking you out backwards and blowing out a knee or worse killing a dog.

Here is a few short videos of my young male showing the HA flee technique I am describing. 

First video is a iPhone video so sorry about the crappy quality. James is a competitive Lacrosse player so is no slouch in the go-fast department but even with his strong acceleration with the small 'J' hook and a shorter distance he still hits the ground, at least he is falling in the right direction! 
http://youtu.be/-8mY_J8us3I

2nd video the technique is the same. Same dog, different HA just a longer distance but same idea, accelerate really hard before the dog bites with a small 'J' hook. 
http://youtu.be/aR025S66DuQ​


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

That answer was awesome! Thanks!


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Daniel Lybbert said:


> I am a fan of the flee attack. I enjoy doing them. I have seen a few dogs landed on and a few get hurt and a few decoys get hurt. But in the amount of trials compared to the amount of wrecks the wrecks were minimal.


I'm neutral about flees, owning fast dogs I have to be really careful on who they bite on one especially with young HA. As you know Sash is a banger and has really hurt herself on flees in training. So I do them with my dogs, but come trial day I am always sub-conciously making the sign of the cross. :-&

There is still to many things that can and will go wrong with the flee, the law of averages will creep up and bite someone in the ass (pun unintended) on a flee before any face or a GAF. 

The way I look at it, the chase is fun for most dogs and the pressure comes more after the bite in the flee with the stick that's about it. So I'm with Kadi it doesn't serve much of a purpose for anything technique wise for the dog now. Especially since they have made it more safe within the rules, it is more about the HA keeping the dog safe than anything. To me it isn't the same test of a dog's character as a face attack where there is more presence and opposition from the HA before the entry. 

So I wouldn't be upset to see it go and have a 2nd face attack myself. 

Phin's Dad had a scary wreck at the 2011 NARA EZ regionals. http://youtu.be/ooCP2jVMORE No one was injured but it could've ended badly, especially since he is a FEMA disaster search dog having him injured or worse would have been a disaster for his handler and her FEMA team.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

The flee is a prey based behavior.


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## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

I have seen a couple wrecks, one was a face attack (mondio trial), dog seemed to miscalculate the obstacle, caught its feet and did a cartwheel in midair past the decoy and wound up sliding all the way over to the fencing and got stuck. Thankfully the dog was not injured. Seen plenty of dogs jammed on long sends, not specific to flee attacks. I have seen other wrecks on face and accessory attacks, either the dog winds up bodyslamming the decoy/getting jammed, taking out the decoy and being fallen on, or its own momentum makes it not stick the initial grip and it goes flying. Potential injury in bitework is not just from take downs and being fallen on. These are contact sports with dogs going high speeds. 

My dog has taken decoys down on face and flees in training from only 3-4m away. He has taken decoys down on escape attempts on the escort and been fallen on, and he has taken decoys down on 30m flees. It happens. Thankfully Cuda has not been badly injured, just jammed a bit.

I have seen wrecks in IPO, not just a mondio/ french ring thing. 

As for the purpose of the Flee in my sport, mondio.. its true that it doesn't test a dog the way a face or accessory attack does. But I have seen dogs not bite on a flee, or come off when the gun is fired and not re engage, even run.. in both trial and training. I would not want to see the Flee taken out of mondio, I find the Stopped Flee a great test of control and training, less so if there is no regular Flee where the dog gets a bite.

I definitely don't and wouldn't train FOR takedowns, if not for the safety of the dog, for the safety of the decoy. Yes, it happens, yes it can be rather spectacular looking, it usually gets cheering and whistling and catcalling from the crowd. But I would prefer to train technique and targetting to stack the odds in my dogs favor.. for safety.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

All awesome stuff, I was looking more for off sport stuff.


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

Interesting point Kadi,about the flee attack in french ring,it is after all the most dangerous attack for both dog and decoy.

How is french ring going in the states?

Happy training

ax


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Max Orsi said:


> How is french ring going in the states?


Same old same old, still hanging in there.


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