# Purely Positive trainers?



## Connie Sutherland

Moved from another thread:



John Squire said:


> Haven't been on the forum in a while, and I am by no means a professional, or even intermediate level amateur trainer. I am very new to dog training, and my only experience is with my current dog who is not at all a competition dog. In any case, in my search for a local professional trainer to work with, I came across the folks at Posidog here in Columbus, OH. I have not contacted them, nor have I ever met them, so please don't think that I speak for them in any way. I am simply posting to ask if anyone is familiar with a couple of the trainers: Chad Byerly or Sarah Keegans. I ask because their business is billed as a "purely positive" training system, and their employee bios list both Chad and Sarah as having involvement in SH, ringsports and MondioRing, in particular, both as decoys and competitors. I do not know if either has titled their dogs in ringsport or SH. Anyhow, I have seen posts by Chad here on WDF, and there was a very interesting discussion about training the basket guard for FR or MR without using compulsion. Perhaps Chad or Sarah could weigh in on this discussion.


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## Thomas Barriano

Connie 

I thought purely Positive Trainers were as rare as Unicorns?
How did they rate their own topic?


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## Jackie Lockard

Am I the only one that makes a face when I see people saying their dogs "play Schutzhund" or "play Mondio Ring"?


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## Thomas Barriano

Jackie Lockard said:


> Am I the only one that makes a face when I see people saying their dogs "play Schutzhund" or "play Mondio Ring"?


YES


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## Howard Gaines III

Jackie you know those dogs "play"...and some would never bite anyone! ;-)
Still others understand the patterns and behaviors needed for the rewards, there are others that would bite you just for the fun of ruining your day!


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## Geoff Empey

Howard Gaines III said:


> Jackie you know those dogs "play"...and some would never bite anyone! ;-)
> Still others understand the patterns and behaviors needed for the rewards, there are others that would bite you just for the fun of ruining your day!


I always get a kick out of the people who say .. "My dog is real" "I don't do sport" and all the other baloney that people pimp their training and their dogs as being. 

It just seems like no one wants to train a dog, they just want the biggest scariest 'real' badass. Then it just turns into a flaming wreck, all the dog does is bite and never gets an smidgeon of control. Then all these 'master trainers' post video of their crappy bite work over and over to impress all the other crappy trainers. Wow! The dog bites, but does it heel or at least sit? :-k


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## Brian McQuain

Geoff Empey said:


> Wow! The dog bites, but does it heel or at least sit? :-k


Or out?


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## Peter Cavallaro

Not knocking sport but why train a dog to bite unless you genuinely want it or need it to bite and have a environment where a bite is legal and if you do then a sit, out.....is secondary importance for dam sure.

if you have the genuine need hope your dog can/will and pray it never has to.....ever.


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## Christopher Smith

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Not knocking sport but why train a dog to bite unless you genuinely want it or need it to bite and have a environment where a bite is legal and if you do then a sit, out.....is secondary importance for dam sure.



Peter if you have a dog that really bites, you sure as hell better be able to control it. What happens if the dog accidentally bites someone?


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## Peter Cavallaro

Thats obvious, but the argument is exaggerated in that there is only artistic sch level control or rabid crazy monsters lashing out at everything they see all the time.

There is a middle ground, may even involve things as management and exposure/access.


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## Chris McDonald

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Not knocking sport but why train a dog to bite unless you genuinely want it or need it to bite and have a environment where a bite is legal and if you do then a sit, out.....is secondary importance for dam sure.
> 
> if you have the genuine need hope your dog can/will and pray it never has to.....ever.


 
Its like bowling, it’s something to do? Like people who train a dog to sit with a treat on its nose, then when you tell it to…the dog eats the treat without it hitting the floor? Or shaking hands, I mean who will ever really need a dog to shake someone’s hand?


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## Peter Cavallaro

Not so, great way to meet chicks is let a fluffy puppy go up to them and offer a paw shake you can then walk over and demonstrates yr master training skills with the cookie trick etc, you will fascinate some bimbo and mebbe get a phone number, whats wrong witchu, u gay?


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## Nicole Stark

Brian McQuain said:


> Or out?


Yeah. :lol: Hmmmmm. :-k Well. :-\" Good question. :twisted:


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## Chris McDonald

Then go bowling?


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## Geoff Empey

Chris McDonald said:


> Then go bowling?


Exactly! I want my dog to out and then go bowling.


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## Thomas Barriano

You can always teach your dog to bowl. That always impresses the Chicks


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## Peter Cavallaro

Not a chick but i would be impressed by that.


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## John Squire

Is it too much to ask for someone to post a reply actually related to the original topic?


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## Peter Cavallaro

Go ahead, you shy?


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## Nicole Stark

John Squire said:


> Is it too much to ask for someone to post a reply actually related to the original topic?


You're right John and that is a fair question/request to make. I'm sorry for intruding in on your inquiry wth my irrelevant response.


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## Thomas Barriano

John Squire said:


> Is it too much to ask for someone to post a reply actually related to the original topic?


Probably since the Purely Positive subject has been done to death on several other topics. The conclusion seem to be there's no such animal.
Where's Chad? I'd love to hear how he trains an OG with no corrections or compulsion. Has he ever titled a Mondio or French Ring I dog using purely positive methods?


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## Geoff Empey

Thomas Barriano said:


> Probably since the Purely Positive subject has been done to death on several other topics. The conclusion seem to be there's no such animal.


To me purely positive is like a pot of gold under the rainbow. Always seemingly there but never obtainable. It's a nice mantra, but like believing in world peace the reality of 'purely positive' is much much different. 

This recent blog post about 'purely positive' pretty well sums up my feelings on the whole 'purely positive' phenomena that seems to run rampant from a society that has run amok and blinded with political correctness. 

http://www.balancedtrainers.com/bloggers/tyler-muto/entry/a-silent-killer


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## James Downey

I know Chad and Sara. They are wonderful people, skilled trainers....and not much for the drama here. So, I think if you are interested go check em' out. Hell even if you don't end up picking up what they are throwing down....Your dog will be no worse for wear. 

As for the Purley positive culture. yes we can judge with a microscope and find something that these trainers do that is aversive, But thier is a difference between training that premeditates the use of aversive and one that tries to avoid and simply does it by accident. 

I think we have not achieved great success with positive methods yet because we as people have used compulsion for a lot longer. Using methods that rely heavily on reward and reduce force are still infantile compared to complusive methods. 

I think methods that are purley posiitive or at least try to be, are not failing in themeselves. It's just we have not arrived yet with them. Complusion and pack theory training is much more widely accepted as "training" So it has many more trainers using those methods. The amount of trainer willing to not use complusion is very, very small. So the training has evolved slower, couple that with the idea the dog training using reward based systems is still relatively new or at least newer compared to compulsion based models and it's not suprising that the more "practised" crowd, with more trainers to draw information from is the crowd that uses complusion. They are more successful not because the method is somehow superior, It's because the method is more mature in it's evolution.


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## John Squire

Thanks for the info, James.

Thomas: I do not know if either of them has titled in any of the ringsports or SH; I have not yet met them. I was mostly interested to hear if anyone, like James, had met them at an event or trial or otherwise knew anything about their methods. I originally posted this in the recent thread about Reik being purely or not purely positively trained, but the mods moved this to another thread. I was originally hoping someone might be able to comment within the context of that thread, or that Chad or Sarah might offer their thoughts on the original (other) discussion. No worries, though.


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## Joby Becker

John Squire said:


> Thanks for the info, James.
> 
> Thomas: I do not know if either of them has titled in any of the ringsports or SH; I have not yet met them. I was mostly interested to hear if anyone, like James, had met them at an event or trial or otherwise knew anything about their methods. I originally posted this in the recent thread about Reik being purely or not purely positively trained, but the mods moved this to another thread. I was originally hoping someone might be able to comment within the context of that thread, or that Chad or Sarah might offer their thoughts on the original (other) discussion. No worries, though.


does anyone know anyone that has had success teaching the OG in a purely positive fashion?


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## Richard Rutt

Joby Becker said:


> does anyone know anyone that has had success teaching the OG in a purely positive fashion?



Yes, 
and I showed Chad the basics of it.


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## Geoff Empey

Richard Rutt said:


> Yes,
> and I showed Chad the basics of it.


So was it successful? Did he get a title on a dog after you showed him the basics? Really that should be the only way to gauge it. :-k


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## Richard Rutt

Geoff Empey said:


> So was it successful? Did he get a title on a dog after you showed him the basics? Really that should be the only way to gauge it. :-k


I don't know if Chad has used it or not. You would have to ask Chad, and the OP was asking about Chad.

But, I have personally used it.

Have you ever titled a dog Geoff?


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## Joby Becker

Richard Rutt said:


> Yes,
> and I showed Chad the basics of it.


Rick, can you explain it a little? as it has been discussed and no one has been able to explain how it is done.

And when you say you did it, are you just talking about the OG in a Pure Positive form, or the entire training of the dog...no ecollars?


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## Thomas Barriano

Joby Becker said:


> Rick, can you explain it a little? as it has been discussed and no one has been able to explain how it is done.
> 
> And when you say you did it, are you just talking about the OG in a Pure Positive form, or the entire training of the dog...no ecollars?


Let's hear a description or better yet a video.
Saying "I'm a Purely Positive trainer" on your website without defining what a PPT is or proving the method is effective. Kind of misses the point of dog training...........results!

I"m sure Chad is a nice guy and maybe even a good trainer
but working on becoming a decoy isn't being a certified decoy
and training in x sport isn't titling.
I don't know if Shade does Purely Positive training (or even claim to?). What she does works and she proves it on the trial field not on the Internet.


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## Howard Gaines III

Geoff Empey said:


> ...It just seems like no one wants to train a dog, they just want the biggest scariest 'real' badass. Then it just turns into a flaming wreck, all the dog does is bite and never gets an smidgeon of control. Then all these 'master trainers' post video of their crappy bite work over and over to impress all the other crappy trainers. Wow! The dog bites, but does it heel or at least sit? :-k


 Yep and in the BIG picture, who cares what that person's dog does, sport/PPD/PSD? Are they happy TRAINING in a venue which suits THEIR needs? The very reason we have no issues in our club. Everyone is here for different reasons, wants, and needs. The dogs are as unique as the people! \\/


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## Howard Gaines III

Purely Positive...so what is positive? We could review the rewards, fundamental learning mode, the use of markers, or the proofed outcome. I use what I need to satisify the end result and still have a great bond with my dogs!

If the dog doesn't comply when herding...no sheep for you. The positive is the pleasure of working sheep. If it's PPD stuff, OB and OB in the bite work allows te dog to get multiple bites if that's what the dog enjoys.

Not seeing this as a 100% way of training.


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## Marta Wajngarten

Connie Sutherland said:


> Moved from another thread:
> 
> Originally Posted by John Squire
> Haven't been on the forum in a while, and I am by no means a professional, or even intermediate level amateur trainer. I am very new to dog training, and my only experience is with my current dog who is not at all a competition dog. In any case, in my search for a local professional trainer to work with, I came across the folks at Posidog here in Columbus, OH. I have not contacted them, nor have I ever met them, so please don't think that I speak for them in any way. I am simply posting to ask if anyone is familiar with a couple of the trainers: Chad Byerly or Sarah Keegans. I ask because their business is billed as a "purely positive" training system, and their employee bios list both Chad and Sarah as having involvement in SH, ringsports and MondioRing, in particular, both as decoys and competitors. I do not know if either has titled their dogs in ringsport or SH. Anyhow, I have seen posts by Chad here on WDF, and there was a very interesting discussion about training the basket guard for FR or MR without using compulsion. Perhaps Chad or Sarah could weigh in on this discussion.


John if you're asking because you want to know if you should go train with them, go see them. Schedule an intro appointment or however they organize themselves. I met them, have trained with them, they're good people. At the very least they will give you some food for thought and you can be on your way. Not to mention they're place is awesome, I still miss that flooring!


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## Joby Becker

Marta Wajngarten said:


> John if you're asking because you want to know if you should go train with them, go see them. Schedule an intro appointment or however they organize themselves. I met them, have trained with them, they're good people. At the very least they will give you some food for thought and you can be on your way. Not to mention they're place is awesome, I still miss that flooring!


what type of flooring?


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## James Downey

You know what I don't get....why trainers who use compulsion are so offended by trainers who don't.


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## Nicole Stark

James Downey said:


> You know what I don't get....why trainers who use compulsion are so offended by trainers who don't.


You know James, maybe they aren't. Whatever it is, I come back to the saying that people generally do the best they can for who they are at the time.


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## James Downey

Nicole Stark said:


> You know James, maybe they aren't. Whatever it is, I come back to the saying that people generally do the best they can for who they are at the time.


They sure react to it.


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## Nicole Stark

James Downey said:


> They sure react to it.


Ever consider it's not what is said, but how it's said that makes the difference in how the message is received by others?


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## Joby Becker

James Downey said:


> You know what I don't get....why trainers who use compulsion are so offended by trainers who don't.


James who is offended by people that dont use compulsion, name one person?


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## Marta Wajngarten

Joby Becker said:


> what type of flooring?


it's that high density blue foam stuff, it's not squishy and squirmy but has just enough give


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Joby Becker said:


> James who is offended by people that dont use compulsion, name one person?


 
Naaahhhhh, its more like "it can't work, it can't work and I've never tried it and I never will. Besides somewhere in the dog's life some form of correction was given so that negates the possibility that any result received was due to the positive method."

T


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## Joby Becker

Marta Wajngarten said:


> it's that high density blue foam stuff, it's not squishy and squirmy but has just enough give


I like those floors too, even for MY feet


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## Joby Becker

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Naaahhhhh, its more like "it can't work, it can't work and I've never tried it and I never will. Besides somewhere in the dog's life some form of correction was given so that negates the possibility that any result received was due to the positive method."
> 
> T


It may surprise you but 95% or more of what I do, I would call "positive". Which is a much higher percentage than it was for me as near as 6 yrs ago.

I have no personal desire to take away that last 4-5 or so % , at least not with my current dog. I do not think that would be a wise thing, considering that the dog has a potential to be dangerous, and was not raised in a fashion that would go hand in hand with positive only methods.

Positive methods are very powerful, that much I know...

I was never offended by someone who does not like to use correction and compulsion, and avoids it if at all possible, I just call bullshit when I see it in my opinion, when someone tries to tout that they the dog they have has never had a correction. And come off like what they are doing is so much better than the bulk of people...or insulting other people because they prefer to use correction collars, or corrrections, or compulsion.

It is really easy to be more honest about it, and say that corrections or physical whatever have been avoided mostly, and RARELY done, than to basically lie and say NEVER.

I am also 100% against the ALL positive movement in general, as I feel it has mostly been highjacked by animal rights type people, not people like you guys that are experimenting with it, people that think it is the only RIGHT way, that will soon enough without my help try to outlaw the training of dogs period.. 

It is my dog, and if I want to use compulsion, or a correction, I will.


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## Geoff Empey

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Naaahhhhh, its more like "it can't work, it can't work and I've never tried it and I never will. Besides somewhere in the dog's life some form of correction was given so that negates the possibility that any result received was due to the positive method."
> 
> T



Saying it is what it is not, bugs me. This is the mantra of <pure>ly positive that I disagree with. IMO <purely positive> is a myth in high end bite sports. Like Joby I have gone the path of more positive but have yet to see <pure> positive training with any dog that has gone on to really big things. 

All of the pure positive dogs that I've seen are train wrecks. Mind you they have been pets of clients, 99% have human and dog aggressive tendencies and are pushy bastards that have no boundaries. So my experience is not good for any dog that doesn't have consequences for inappropriate behaviours.


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## Marta Wajngarten

Geoff Empey said:


> All of the pure positive dogs that I've seen are train wrecks. Mind you they have been pets of clients, 99% have human and dog aggressive tendencies and are pushy bastards that have no boundaries. So my experience is not good for any dog that doesn't have consequences for inappropriate behaviours.


Bite sport dogs aside, I think part of the problem is that it takes a very skilled, dedicated, and very disciplined person to do a good job of raising a dog purely positively.The vast majority of pet people are incapable or unwilling to do that, heck even a lot of the pp pet trainers out there that I see are total wrecks at what they do and completely turn the concept on it's head (there are plenty of horrible trainers out there regardless of the method) and think just because they use no force, dish out cookies for every thing, and think they are ignoring bad behaviours they are effectively training. Positive should not be permissive and in many of these cases it very much is. They're doing a part of the puzzle and as such you see the miserable results you're describing, unruly undisciplined cookie monster dogs.


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## Howard Gaines III

Joby Becker said:


> James who is offended by people that dont use compulsion, name one person?


 I use those "tools" that get the job done and still keep a good bond with my dogs. As a former classroom teacher, I never used compulsion to teach humans, why would that be the first choice in working with dogs? =;


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## Adam Swilling

90% of the time when I see someone who is die hard anti correction, e-collar, compulsion, etc. I'm looking at someone who has humanized their dog way too much,. I firmly believe that the overwhelming majority of people on this forum use far more positive training techniques than anything else. But I also firmly believe that doing nothing but positive produces the type of dogs that Geoff described: no boundaries. Maybe I'm training and owning the wrong kind of dogs, but when one decides it wants to test me the last thing that runs through my mind is " Well, you sir will get no cookie for that type of behaviour". I don't do that with my children; I'll be damned if I do it with a dog. I've never seen a dog with a highly dominate tempermate and desire to bite that hasn't had to be shown who the boss is at some point. I'm sure someone will try to point out the exception. Purely positive may work in agility or dock diving, but I don't buy it when it comes to upper level bite sports or PSD's. 

The thing that typically turns me off about trainers who claim to be nothing but positive is that more often than not they think they're a better trainer than the rest of us. Now, I know that's not always the case. But just because you don't like correcting your dog doesn't mean you're a better trainer than those of us who will. 

As for comparing dogs to humans,I've never hesitated in correcting my kids, even if it meant spanking (yes, I still believe in the power of busting ass when it's warranted). There's no way I'm going to cut my dogs more slack than my own children.


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## julie allen

Adam Swilling said:


> 90% of the time when I see someone who is die hard anti correction, e-collar, compulsion, etc. I'm looking at someone who has humanized their dog way too much,. I firmly believe that the overwhelming majority of people on this forum use far more positive training techniques than anything else. But I also firmly believe that doing nothing but positive produces the type of dogs that Geoff described: no boundaries. Maybe I'm training and owning the wrong kind of dogs, but when one decides it wants to test me the last thing that runs through my mind is " Well, you sir will get no cookie for that type of behaviour". I don't do that with my children; I'll be damned if I do it with a dog. I've never seen a dog with a highly dominate tempermate and desire to bite that hasn't had to be shown who the boss is at some point. I'm sure someone will try to point out the exception. Purely positive may work in agility or dock diving, but I don't buy it when it comes to upper level bite sports or PSD's.
> 
> The thing that typically turns me off about trainers who claim to be nothing but positive is that more often than not they think they're a better trainer than the rest of us. Now, I know that's not always the case. But just because you don't like correcting your dog doesn't mean you're a better trainer than those of us who will.
> 
> As for comparing dogs to humans,I've never hesitated in correcting my kids, even if it meant spanking (yes, I still believe in the power of busting ass when it's warranted). There's no way I'm going to cut my dogs more slack than my own children.


Don't you know there are no such thing as dominate dogs anymore lol.  
Don't you read the pet forums:mrgreen:


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## maggie fraser

Nicole Stark said:


> You know James, maybe they aren't. Whatever it is, I come back to the saying that people generally do the best they can for who they are at the time.


LMAO 

Says nothing... but says everything!


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## Sara Waters

In the agility and obedience world that I am part of I know quite a number of very good handlers and dogs that would be close on 100% positively trained.

Their dogs trained like this from the minute they come home. They are constantly reinforced for the behaviors that are desired. Value is built for a range of reward and behaviours. The dogs are set up to win as much as possible and reinforced for that behaviour so unwanted behaviour is not so common. The trainers are very consistant and it is a way of life from the minute that pup arrives in its new home.

More and more of the top agility dogs are trained like this and I see some new young dogs coming through now that are amazing. They are supper focussed and have such incredible speed and enthusiasm. 

This way of training is a skill and requires depth of understanding that the ordinary pet owner often doesnt have. To say every dog that was trained purely positively is a train wreck is untrue. It is highly likely in the person who does not truly understand what it is like to train this way but highly effective when used by the person who does. It takes committment and dedication, but the end results can be amazing.

I dont know about highend bite sports but in the sports I compete in it can be and is highly effective.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

I think we can exclude the pet dog owners. We don't have them on this forum and they haven't been the proponents on this forum exploring this type of training. If you have ever free shaped a behavior, you would know that a prior unrelated correction has no bearing on the shaping process. I'm free shaping a retrieve on a dog now. We started with the hold. After getting her to understand that it is to bite down and hold the dumbell up to 7 seconds, today we started free shaping her picking it up from the floor and holding it with a sit front. She goes nuts every time I pick up a dumbell and I have to hide them from her and my bouv. This is sort of a back chaining process and with each dog it has been different. If she has ever been corrected for anything else, where in this process do you think she is thinking---do it to avoid correction. She doesn't even know what IT really is since its shaped. All she knows is that I marked a behavior and if she does IT a gain, there''s hot dogs or turkey as a reward. In looking at Shade's dog its real EASY for me to accept that its positive reinforcement that has gotten what she needs to compete with consistency and reliability. I can't think of ANYONE here that has said they train with "purely" positive which by the naysayer definition means no correction physical or verbal or the "try again" non-reward marker which I don't think is a correction at all. I watched club training in all three phases consist of free shaping and ALL posiitive reinforcement for over a year. I also decided as an experiment to purely positive train a dog. I can tell you that it does work with certain dogs. You can't rush it and every aspect has to be micromanaged to build all the behaviors within the dog's life around the house, as well as the competitive activity with shaping and rewards. It does take a LOT of patience and planning. So far for me, competition or otherwise, the most reliably performed behaviors are the shaped ones that I have put on a variable reinforcement schedule.

T


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## Sara Waters

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I can't think of ANYONE here that has said they train with "purely" positive which by the naysayer definition means no correction physical or verbal or the "try again" non-reward marker which I don't think is a correction at all. I watched club training in all three phases consist of free shaping and ALL posiitive reinforcement for over a year. I also decided as an experiment to purely positive train a dog. I can tell you that it does work with certain dogs. You can't rush it and every aspect has to be micromanaged to build all the behaviors within the dog's life around the house, as well as the competitive activity with shaping and rewards. It does take a LOT of patience and planning. So far for me, competition or otherwise, the most reliably performed behaviors are the shaped ones that I have put on a variable reinforcement schedule.
> 
> T


I wouldnt call the try again non reward marker a correction either. The trick here is to allow the dog to fail say twice and then revaluate if the dog truly understands the behaviour. I was watching a friend training running contacts where she rewarded for what she wanted and got the dog to try again for when it didnt hit the right spot. The dog had such value built for the tunnel dog walk combo she was training on that you could see it was trying hard to get the reward but it was also having a ball trying to get the right behaviour and was not the least bit put off going round again for another go.

I would say that Border collies and koolies really lend themselves to this type of training which are the dogs I am most exposed to in this setting I guess.

I taught my sometimes stubborn, calculating little cattle dog the dumbell the way T describes and it is her favourite and highest scoring obedience move. I work with my rescue Koolie the same way and he is a dog I have actually never used a correction on. I have shaped a lot of behaviours with him and he is a dog that loves to work for reward including paise, I dont think I have ever owned a dog so focussed on working out what I want him to do. He is definitely a dog that can be trained 100% positively, but with him I am careful to set him up so his chance of failure is low and he has a high chance of working out what I want. I can see that when he gets what I want he totally lights up and that behaviour becomes something he loves to demonstrate when asked, especially if I praise him.


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## Louise Jollyman

My only problem with purely positive training is that many of the folks who believe it are so haughty and condescending and accuse everyone else of a lack of creativity. I'm not a "traditional" schutzhund trainer, but I use elements of everything I come across that I find useful for my dogs, and let them tell me which methods to use. I love the clicker training and free shaping, and I love the challenge of thinking of new ways to do things and there are certain exercises where I do not use any type of aversive. I always recommend that new people start with the clicker so that they learn to observe and practise timing. 

When I told my TD I was going to do a clicker retrieve with Bodeus, he said "That won't work, I'll only believe it works if you can lift him off the ground with the dumbell!" Aha challenge! So off I went for 6 weeks and brought back exactly that! Bodeus achieved SG for his retrieve in most of his schutzhund trials. Bodeus' retrieve was trained using free shaping, R+ and occasional -P when he didn't feel like working.

I wanted more intensity in my more recent dogs so have moved to NEPOPO with their retrieves.

Bodeus clicker retrieve - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5k11H4zx_s starts at 1:34
Apollo's NEPOPO retrieve - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjfpcPI8kS0 starts at 4:20


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Louise Jollyman said:


> My only problem with purely positive training is that many of the folks who believe it are so haughty and condescending and accuse everyone else of a lack of creativity. I'm not a "traditional" schutzhund trainer, but I use elements of everything I come across that I find useful for my dogs, and let them tell me which methods to use. I love the clicker training and free shaping, and I love the challenge of thinking of new ways to do things and there are certain exercises where I do not use any type of aversive. I always recommend that new people start with the clicker so that they learn to observe and practise timing.
> 
> When I told my TD I was going to do a clicker retrieve with Bodeus, he said "That won't work, I'll only believe it works if you can lift him off the ground with the dumbell!" Aha challenge! So off I went for 6 weeks and brought back exactly that! Bodeus achieved SG for his retrieve in most of his schutzhund trials. Bodeus' retrieve was trained using free shaping, R+ and occasional -P when he didn't feel like working.
> 
> I wanted more intensity in my more recent dogs so have moved to NEPOPO with their retrieves.
> 
> Bodeus clicker retrieve - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5k11H4zx_s starts at 1:34
> Apollo's NEPOPO retrieve - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjfpcPI8kS0 starts at 4:20


Unless you tell me he had an ear infection, Apollow is more stressed/anxious. He likes the jump/A Frame which puts my dog in prey drive. The retrieve on flat isn't anymore "intense" than Bodeus' for me. What you say about Bodeus and not wanting to work is interesting. How do you characterize not wanting to work.


T


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## Louise Jollyman

Bodeus chose not to retrieve the dumbell, he went back in his crate for an hour or so. He had excellent food drive so he didn't go very long without working 

Apollo has a soft ear, was born with it. Yes, Apollo is stressed, but also what the judges are looking for, his retrieves regularly get V scores, where Bodeus only got SG....


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## Nicole Stark

Louise Jollyman said:


> Apollo has a soft ear, was born with it. Yes, Apollo is stressed, but also what the judges are looking for, his retrieves regularly get V scores, where Bodeus only got SG....


Hello Louise, did I interpret your last sentence correctly? I interpret what you wrote to literally mean what you stated. That the dog is stressed but this is what the judges are looking for (read: desired). Or did you mean it the other way, that the judges are looking for it because it is not desired?


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## Sara Waters

Louise Jollyman said:


> My only problem with purely positive training is that many of the folks who believe it are so haughty and condescending and accuse everyone else of a lack of creativity.


I think it works both ways. I have seen plenty of comments about positive training steeped in a lack of understanding.

The people I know who train "positively" dont care how other people train and very rarely make comment. They do what works for them to get their dogs in to the top echelons of obedience and agility and dont concern themselves with others. 

They focus on learning what they need. Quite a few of them are older and have trained other high performing dogs back in the eighties by other means and got good results. They are always experimenting to see what will get them the best results and they will travel to the UK or USA or arrange for international people to visit us. Haughty and condescending is not how I would describe them. They are too busy training their dogs.


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## brad robert

Louise Jollyman said:


> My only problem with purely positive training is that many of the folks who believe it are so haughty and condescending and accuse everyone else of a lack of creativity. I'm not a "traditional" schutzhund trainer, but I use elements of everything I come across that I find useful for my dogs, and let them tell me which methods to use. I love the clicker training and free shaping, and I love the challenge of thinking of new ways to do things and there are certain exercises where I do not use any type of aversive. I always recommend that new people start with the clicker so that they learn to observe and practise timing.
> 
> When I told my TD I was going to do a clicker retrieve with Bodeus, he said "That won't work, I'll only believe it works if you can lift him off the ground with the dumbell!" Aha challenge! So off I went for 6 weeks and brought back exactly that! Bodeus achieved SG for his retrieve in most of his schutzhund trials. Bodeus' retrieve was trained using free shaping, R+ and occasional -P when he didn't feel like working.
> 
> I wanted more intensity in my more recent dogs so have moved to NEPOPO with their retrieves.
> 
> Bodeus clicker retrieve - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5k11H4zx_s starts at 1:34
> Apollo's NEPOPO retrieve - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjfpcPI8kS0 starts at 4:20


Both very nice but apollos seems a bit faster and driven but is that the dogs nature in general as Bodeus doesnt seem as driven in some of the work.Just what i observed.


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## Louise Jollyman

Yes, I believe judges look for a fast retrieve with intensity, some call it stress, others call it focus, others call it speed, everyone will see different, I just know the difference in scores. I think in schutzhund, they still look for some stress as a good thing, as long as the dog is not looking submissive or downtrodden....

But Sara, those folks are great trainers, were great when they trained old school too, some people are just good no matter what method they use, why, because they use feel and talent!

Yes, Brad, Apollo has more drive than his father but he has also been trained differently too. Bodeus had standard AKC obedience for 6-9 months, then clicker, then drive training in schutzhund, and then a little NEPOPO when he was 5 years old and already SchH3. I didn't put an e-collar on him before he was SchH3, I wanted to learn how to use it correctly first.. Apollo began his e-collar training at 6 months, but he was trained with clicker and drive work before that, he never had the AKC obedience work early on, he has been trained largely with free shaping and then NEPOPO.


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## Geoff Empey

Sara Waters said:


> I dont know about highend bite sports but in the sports I compete in it can be and is highly effective.


Hey! Positive style training is highly effective in bite sports too. I'm not trying to fool any one I use it as much as I can. But my experience is especially with the pushy take a mile if they get an inch dogs I have from time to time you still need to reach out and touch them to remind them what actually they are supposed to be doing. That isn't a bad thing that the <purely> group makes it out to be either.


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## Jennifer Coulter

I actually see a lot more hope for purely positive methods in bite sports and performance sports than in some other venues.

At least in sports you can control and manage and manipulate the environment to your advantage and can take your time.

I know that with my new work dog, I had to result to more correction type tools than I would have needed if I could just have had the time I wanted to train things. But that is not reality. I can't control the environment at work (highly distracting) and I can't control the amount of time I am given to get to my dog around the environment on a daily basis. 

The reality is that the dog work is just one small part of my job, yet a lot is expected in a short period. I do WAY more training on my days off than most do, to try and to teach things as positively as I can. There are many things I KNOW I could teach with no corrections or correction collars. There are also other created issues that never would have had become a problem if I had all the time in the world and didn't have to actually work and could just spend all day at work training with her.

I also must be getting crappier as a trainer because I managed to train my first working dog mostly on a flat collar. My new one..not so much LOL. TOTALLY different dogs mind you.

In the end I am glad for "purely positive" trainers that are out there pushing the limits of what is possible.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Louise Jollyman said:


> Bodeus chose not to retrieve the dumbell, he went back in his crate for an hour or so. He had excellent food drive so he didn't go very long without working
> 
> Apollo has a soft ear, was born with it. Yes, Apollo is stressed, but also what the judges are looking for, his retrieves regularly get V scores, where Bodeus only got SG....


 
Its the tilt of his head in the heeling that suggests the stress to me. Depending upon where you reward along the chain in the retrieves, you can get pretty good speed and intensity. Also, I can't help but think that these are two different dogs so hard to think change of methods is the only factor.

T


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## Louise Jollyman

I believe in balance. I love free-shaping with my dogs and wrote an entire website on training schutzhund exercises with a clicker, I don't know how many other schutzhund folks took a clicker retrieve on the field!!! One judge said it couldn't be done, I told him "You just saw it dude!"

I think positive training is good, I think we should strive towards it, but I'm not going to be "pure" at anything, sorry!


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## Louise Jollyman

See, T, that just shows what different people see, IMO Apollo is not stressed enough in the heeling!!!! He is goofy and loose!!!


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Louise Jollyman said:


> Yes, I believe judges look for a fast retrieve with intensity, some call it stress, others call it focus, others call it speed, everyone will see different, I just know the difference in scores. I think in schutzhund, they still look for some stress as a good thing, as long as the dog is not looking submissive or downtrodden....
> 
> But Sara, those folks are great trainers, were great when they trained old school too, some people are just good no matter what method they use, why, because they use feel and talent!
> 
> Yes, Brad, Apollo has more drive than his father but he has also been trained differently too. Bodeus had standard AKC obedience for 6-9 months, then clicker, then drive training in schutzhund, and then a little NEPOPO when he was 5 years old and already SchH3. I didn't put an e-collar on him before he was SchH3, I wanted to learn how to use it correctly first.. Apollo began his e-collar training at 6 months, but he was trained with clicker and drive work before that, he never had the AKC obedience work early on, he has been trained largely with free shaping and then NEPOPO.


The most telltale factors: difference in drive; begin with marker training vs. something else. The e-collar work I see around here is basically fast, yet anxious dogs. If you want fast in the retrieve, rewarding at various points within the chain has gotten it for me. However, that said, you do have to factor in the dog's drive and mentality. Drive is drive. I'm not going to try to make it with avoidance type training to get the "look." The dog brings what he has. My bouv Khira is never going to look as fast drive as my corgi/terrier cross Khaiba. Khaiba is a pp dog and Khira began life with more "because I say so." Marker training came later in her life. 

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Louise Jollyman said:


> I believe in balance. I love free-shaping with my dogs and wrote an entire website on training schutzhund exercises with a clicker, I don't know how many other schutzhund folks took a clicker retrieve on the field!!! One judge said it couldn't be done, I told him "You just saw it dude!"
> 
> I think positive training is good, I think we should strive towards it, but I'm not going to be "pure" at anything, sorry!


 
Riverfront Working Dog Club in St. Louis.


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## Bob Scott

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Riverfront Working Dog Club in St. Louis.


Ditto on that! RWDC is where I spent almost 6 yrs. Watch the video! http://www.rwdc.org/
You don't have to believe it. That's not important to those that train there.


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## Nicole Stark

Jennifer Coulter said:


> I know that with my new work dog, I had to result to more correction type tools than I would have needed if I could just have had the time I wanted to train things. But that is not reality. I can't control the environment at work (highly distracting) and I can't control the amount of time I am given to get to my dog around the environment on a daily basis.


I liked your entire post and understand your point above rather well. It's something I didn't comment on earlier regarding why I opted to go with an e collar for my outs. It was due in part to a comment made by one of the members which was picked up on one of my recorded sessions. The statement made was:

"Well if Wasabi doesn't out again, it's going to be nobody's turn." 

It didn't occur to me until I caught the comment that the time we were taking with her was found to be both bothersome and an excessive investment of club time. I felt pressured to move along more quickly and thus started using techniques that I probably should have avoided but didn't because I didn't understand the long term impact it would have once we set that into motion.

I've given some thought to that lately and think there's some things I should and need to be doing away from the club environment that will get us back on track. Anyway, I just wanted to comment on that since you brought up the aspect of time being a factor for why some opt to use something other than motivational training.


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## Sara Waters

Louise Jollyman said:


> But Sara, those folks are great trainers, were great when they trained old school too, some people are just good no matter what method they use, why, because they use feel and talent!


I guess I was trying to say that these people are good regardless, but they also want to win and they will only change if they think they get better results.

I also understand the time comment. However some of these handlers I know have got multiple dogs from puppies to novice up to the top levels. I suspect they become so familiar with how they train that it becomes a way of life, and is no more time consuming than any other way. Most of them have other jobs as well.

In terms of training at the clubs. In the days I used to train with a club many of the best handlers give up their time to help out on certain nights. I have had them watch me working with my dog and come over and give me really good advice. When it is each persons turn to run the practice set up, no one really feels under pressure because each run is discussed by the group. There is a shared training vision where I live and it is very rooted in positive.

There is also an expectation that you will do some work away from the club, but I have always left feeling I am leaving with good advice to work with.

Geoff I also train mainly positively but have had cause occassionally to put my foot down with one of my pushy cattle dogs, but I think the more one works with and understands the "purely positive" the less this tends to happen. I have revisited my foundation training with a couple of pushy dogs and the change was good. 

I know it takes a fair bit of time to really understand how it all works and that it is very far removed from thrusting treats at a dog. You have to be committed but I think it becomes easier with experience is my observation of the handlers that do it well.


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## Marta Wajngarten

Louise, I wish I could throw like you do.


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## Nicole Stark

Sara Waters said:


> There is also an expectation that you will do some work away from the club, but I have always left feeling I am leaving with good advice to work with.


This is a fair statement and expectation. Not to sound like I am defending my use of the e collar for the reasons I've given, but I did just that. I worked with the TD for direction on what I could do at home to facilitate the work we were doing. But one thing I could not duplicate is the relationship/interactions that were unique to him and the dog. At home and on other people she'd out. With the two of them together, we had some issues. 

This is of course, a separate matter/different topic but I wanted to put that out there for anyone who might be reading in not fully realizing that it's not just as black and white as doing work away from the field. That's certainly one aspect of the progression and an important piece but it can go deeper than that and involve elements not entirely within your control. Within your influence certainly but not always within your control.


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## Gillian Schuler

James Downey said:


> You know what I don't get....why trainers who use compulsion are so offended by trainers who don't.


And you know what I don't get..... why trainers who use purely positive methods are so offended by triners who don't.

There are always two sides to the coin


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## Louise Jollyman

Marta Wajngarten said:


> Louise, I wish I could throw like you do.


Thanks Marta,

I am one of Schutzhund's worst dumbell throwers!!! I have hit the wall numerous times and usually need at least one re-throw, but I am getting better with practise!


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## Gillian Schuler

I got cut off from altering my post as the time "ran out".

I wonder how some dogs consider some trainers who train purely positively really see them.

Most dogs approach a rebellious stage at about 11 months. They are often oblivious to commands that they once obeyed and behave like juvenile delinquents.

How do you get these dogs back on track?


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## Sara Waters

Gillian Schuler said:


> I got cut off from altering my post as the time "ran out".
> I wonder how some dogs consider some trainers who train purely positively really see them.
> Most dogs approach a rebellious stage at about 11 months. They are often oblivious to commands that they once obeyed and behave like juvenile delinquents.
> How do you get these dogs back on track?


First of all to Nicole about working away from a club. Yes I face this challenge myself these days as I train on a farm and then have to turn up to trials with my dogs never having experienced training in that environment. With some dogs no problems, with others they will probably always be below their best because of that regardless of method. So you have to adapt to the way that gets your dog the time it needs.

As to the juvenile delinquent stage. The young juveneiles I see at trials with our best handlers that have been positively trained are so conditioned and so focussed that I have yet to see delinquency at trials. These young dogs just blow the competition out of the water and most are through to Masters in a flash while the rest of us are still languishing at the lower levels. As I said it seems to be a way of life and I see these handlers training their young pre trialing dogs at trials and their focus and drive to play the game is incredible even as juveniles. 

I know one of mine went through that stage to a certain extent, but then I am what I call a half arsed positive trainer. I havent got purely positive down to the art form that these top agility addicts have. So I havent got my dogs conditioned to within an inch of their lives to play the game. My foundation training is always positive but I tend to skip steps because my dogs are also my working dogs on sheep, so my committment to winning in agility is not as great . With purely positive you cant skip steps. But my observation in agility is that if you do it right, most of those dogs are very hard to beat. They have to be having a very bad day.


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## Britney Pelletier

Louise Jollyman said:


> My only problem with purely positive training is that many of the folks who believe it are so haughty and condescending and accuse everyone else of a lack of creativity. I'm not a "traditional" schutzhund trainer, but I use elements of everything I come across that I find useful for my dogs, and let them tell me which methods to use. I love the clicker training and free shaping, and I love the challenge of thinking of new ways to do things and there are certain exercises where I do not use any type of aversive. I always recommend that new people start with the clicker so that they learn to observe and practise timing.
> 
> When I told my TD I was going to do a clicker retrieve with Bodeus, he said "That won't work, I'll only believe it works if you can lift him off the ground with the dumbell!" Aha challenge! So off I went for 6 weeks and brought back exactly that! Bodeus achieved SG for his retrieve in most of his schutzhund trials. Bodeus' retrieve was trained using free shaping, R+ and occasional -P when he didn't feel like working.
> 
> I wanted more intensity in my more recent dogs so have moved to NEPOPO with their retrieves.
> 
> Bodeus clicker retrieve - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5k11H4zx_s starts at 1:34
> Apollo's NEPOPO retrieve - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjfpcPI8kS0 starts at 4:20



I see what you see in these videos.. it's' clear that perhaps Apollo is just a genetically more drivey dog, but I feel like you can almost always see the differences in speed an accuracy between the purely motivational trained retrieve vs. the -R retrieve. Apollo is much faster in all aspects of it. It also looked like Bodeus chewed a bit, but it was hard to tell.

The motivational retrieve dog will ALWAYS have the option of deciding not to do it, and when they do, you have no recourse. You cannot correct them because they will have no idea what they are being corrected for and it would be very unfair to do so. The -R dog (or even started motivational and introduced -R later) may decide not to do it one day, but you will have a means to correct them when they do, and they will understand exactly why they are being corrected.

Louise - out of curiousity, did Bodeus ever refuse retrieves, drop dumbbells, miss the jump/wall or anything of that nature when you trialed him? That is always my biggest concern with the motivational only trained dogs.. what do you do in a trial when they decide that is the day that your motivation is not enough?


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## Sara Waters

Britney Pelletier said:


> The motivational retrieve dog will ALWAYS have the option of deciding not to do it, and when they do, you have no recourse. You cannot correct them because they will have no idea what they are being corrected for and it would be very unfair to do so. The -R dog (or even started motivational and introduced -R later) may decide not to do it one day, but you will have a means to correct them when they do, and they will understand exactly why they are being corrected.
> 
> That is always my biggest concern with the motivational only trained dogs.. what do you do in a trial when they decide that is the day that your motivation is not enough?


Herin lies the key. The trainer that truly understands purely positive, never puts their dog in a position where the dog decides not to do it. I trained my cattle dog the dumbell this way and she is not the most biddable of dogs. I had all her reinforcers already in place from foundation training and always worked her operantly. I then started with the dumbell doing it in very small increments, making it highly reinforcing say just to look at the dumbell and so on to actually holding the dumbell. The whole process was so highly reinforcing to her and she was so conditioned that at trials her eyes lit up when the dumbell came out 100% of the time. Years later after I stopped doing obedience with her her eyes still light up at the dumbell.

You have to have a lot of work in place as foundation work if you really want to get the best out of purely positive. 

I have no idea if it works with every dog, but done in the right way the dogs that I see in the upper levels of obedience and agility that are trained that way are hard to beat, where I live.


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## Britney Pelletier

Sara Waters said:


> Herin lies the key. The trainer that truly understands purely positive, never puts their dog in a position where the dog decides not to do it. I trained my cattle dog the dumbell this way and she is not the most biddable of dogs. I had all her reinforcers already in place from foundation training and always worked her operantly. I then started with the dumbell doing it in very small increments, making it highly reinforcing say just to look at the dumbell and so on to actually holding the dumbell. The whole process was so highly reinforcing to her and she was so conditioned that at trials her eyes lit up when the dumbell came out 100% of the time. Years later after I stopped doing obedience with her her eyes still light up at the dumbell.
> 
> You have to have a lot of work in place as foundation work if you really want to get the best out of purely positive.
> 
> I have no idea if it works with every dog, but done in the right way the dogs that I see in the upper levels of obedience and agility that are trained that way are hard to beat, where I live.



That does make a lot of sense! So the idea is basically that you have reinforced so many separate pieces of a behavior, then chained them all together, then reinforced it as a whole so many times without ever letting the dog "fail", that the idea is the only time they are ever in a situation where they could make a wrong choice is in a trial? But, they have done the behavior and been reinforced for it 100's or 1000's of times, so the likelihood is very small that it will happen? 


That is how I train all of my dog's foundation work.. but eventually, they have to understand that there are consequences for wrong decisions. I feel as though this makes their lives a lot easier and much less stressful, especially because I train and trial in environments that involve a LOT of competing motivators for my dogs, and since I know they are dogs and are perfectly capable of making their own decisions, I know that one day they may decide that a competing motivator is a lot more valuable than the reward that I have. If/when this happens (which it has, especially with bite sport dogs), I prefer to some sort of recourse to deal with it and show my dog how to go about not making that decision in the future. I use very little -R in my training, and mostly only use corrections in the form of +P.


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## Marta Wajngarten

Britney Pelletier said:


> That does make a lot of sense! So the idea is basically that you have reinforced so many separate pieces of a behavior, then chained them all together, then reinforced it as a whole so many times without ever letting the dog "fail", that the idea is the only time they are ever in a situation where they could make a wrong choice is in a trial? But, they have done the behavior and been reinforced for it 100's or 1000's of times, so the likelihood is very small that it will happen?


You got it. Plus you think of any possibilities of when the training could fail, any possible distractions, and train for them. You don't just train the behaviour over and over, you do this every where and with all sorts of distractions. It's all about prevention as opposed to being reactive to what happens, and continually building value for what you want.


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## Sara Waters

Britney Pelletier said:


> That does make a lot of sense! So the idea is basically that you have reinforced so many separate pieces of a behavior, then chained them all together, then reinforced it as a whole so many times without ever letting the dog "fail", that the idea is the only time they are ever in a situation where they could make a wrong choice is in a trial? But, they have done the behavior and been reinforced for it 100's or 1000's of times, so the likelihood is very small that it will happen?
> 
> 
> That is how I train all of my dog's foundation work.. but eventually, they have to understand that there are consequences for wrong decisions. I feel as though this makes their lives a lot easier and much less stressful, especially because I train and trial in environments that involve a LOT of competing motivators for my dogs, and since I know they are dogs and are perfectly capable of making their own decisions, I know that one day they may decide that a competing motivator is a lot more valuable than the reward that I have. If/when this happens (which it has, especially with bite sport dogs), I prefer to some sort of recourse to deal with it and show my dog how to go about not making that decision in the future. I use very little -R in my training, and mostly only use corrections in the form of +P.


I think that the handlers I see will also proof the behaviour many times at trials. I see them with their young pre trial dogs right in the thick of everything proofing their dogs. These youngster seem so absorbed in the task at hand that short of some major unexpected event they are really in to what they are doing with their handler. Agility trials are usually a chaos of activity. Dogs running full speed, barking, practice set ups all over the place. 

My young dog decided a few times that this was more exciting than the task at hand when we first started trialing him and I had to corect him and make it known that it would not be tolerated, but my situation is that I cant train for those distractions because if where I live. 

However it really is not the norm with some of the higher level trainers and I have never seen them use corrections on their dogs, they just seem so completely conditioned to the task at hand.


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## Britney Pelletier

Marta Wajngarten said:


> You got it. Plus you think of any possibilities of when the training could fail, any possible distractions, and train for them. You don't just train the behaviour over and over, you do this every where and with all sorts of distractions. It's all about prevention as opposed to being reactive to what happens, and continually building value for what you want.



I guess this is where I get confused.. when they introduce training in highly distracting environments, what do they do when their reward/motivation is less appealing to the dogs than whatever else is going on in their environment?


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## Louise Jollyman

Britney Pelletier said:


> Louise - out of curiousity, did Bodeus ever refuse retrieves, drop dumbbells, miss the jump/wall or anything of that nature when you trialed him? That is always my biggest concern with the motivational only trained dogs.. what do you do in a trial when they decide that is the day that your motivation is not enough?


Hey Britney,

Actually Bodeus only refused to do retrieves early on in his training if I took him somewhere new with lots of interesting smells or if it was very hot. In trial, the only one I remember was the UK National, he did not hit the wall with enough power and it was wet and he slid back down, he went to get the dumbell and came back around so of course he lost all points. 

I trialled him 10 times for SchH3 and that's the only refusal, oh and there was the funny one where a friend used our dog towel to wipe the wall dry and hung it on the chain, Bodeus went over, came around, sniffed the towel, then got the dumbell and came back over, so not quite a refusal but definitely an "oh look, that's more interesting" 

I was lucky with Bodeus that he loved to jump and do obstacles, agility was his favorite, so I never really had to worry about him going round. I trialled Bodeus way too early, I had him in the AKC obedience ring at less than a year old, so my training wasn't properly proofed before trialling.

Apollo made me laugh last night doing some broad jump training for the CDX, I put him on a sit and went to the spot and then came back to him to reward the sit, when I clicked, he went flying over the jump instead of to the food bowl for a chicken neck!


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## Shade Whitesel

Positive trained the last 3 Schutzhund dogs and they have yet to refuse to retrieve. Oh wait, Reiki did once refuse to bring back the dumbbell. I had accidently thrown it into a pile of dog shit. It's okay with me if he refuses it then. 
I do think it's a legitimate point that the motivational retrieves are normally slower than a pressure one. Reik's is slower for sure and I am sure happy when he does get V in his retrieves. But if you want to talk genetics, he's not a very prey happy fast guy anyway so I am not sure he would be any faster with pressure. My malinois on the other hand, his retrieve is totally clicker trained, totally free shaped and I could not be happier. I am also a far better trainer than I was 5 years ago when I imprinted Reik's retrieves. 
As far as what to do when they do refuse and that the dog must know he must retrieve, I have seen so many force trained dogs refuse to retrieve, I have lost count. My own first Schutzhund one refused in trial. But again, I am a far far better trainer now so perhaps it is the clarity in training, not the method?


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## Britney Pelletier

Shade Whitesel said:


> I am a far far better trainer now so perhaps it is the clarity in training, not the method?



Could be! and I wouldn't argue that it's possible all the rest (method) is just semantics.


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## Peter Cavallaro

No offence but it is a bit trite to say i did this with one dog got this result, did that with another dog got that result and try make a comparison between the this and the that. 


does my head in reading it.


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## Louise Jollyman

Britney Pelletier said:


> I guess this is where I get confused.. when they introduce training in highly distracting environments, what do they do when their reward/motivation is less appealing to the dogs than whatever else is going on in their environment?


My understanding is the dog is put up and the handler tries to find a middle situation to work on. 

I often read Denise Fenzi's blog, has some good ideas that I also add to my toolbox. I think this one shows the situation - http://denisefenzi.com/2012/03/15/lyra-7-months/


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## Sara Waters

Britney Pelletier said:


> Could be! and I wouldn't argue that it's possible all the rest (method) is just semantics.


I think that working and learning and watching with the positive methods have grown me as a trainer and handler of dogs. I think whatever method you use you really have to understand how they work to get the best out of them. 

I enjoy learning and working with positive more, but then I also know someone who trains with correction, but again she also does the foundation work and breaking down behvaiours she wants, she just uses mild corrections and an e collar to guide the dog, but never as a shortcut to fix innaproriate foundation work.

As to fast retrieves, I think my cattle dog had one of the fastest. She loved that dumbell exercise! I dont think I would have got that type of speed and joy if I had forced her. I suspect she would have sulked, but then I have no idea how to teach a forced retrieve, nor was the foundation work in place to fascillitate training with compulsion.


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## Sara Waters

Britney Pelletier said:


> I guess this is where I get confused.. when they introduce training in highly distracting environments, what do they do when their reward/motivation is less appealing to the dogs than whatever else is going on in their environment?


 
Again small steps. I see many pups at trials. I know a lot of people use crate grames, I see pups playing tug for short periods ring side. The conditioning is done early, often and always setting up for success. Never letting the dog get into a situation where it other things are more appealing. It amazes to see some of the new crop of pre trialing youngsters coming up at trials. Working on their focus in highly stimulating environments, they are like machines. They are almost obsessed with what they are doing regardless of what else is happening. What they are doing with their handlers seem to be way more interesting than anything else happening.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Marta Wajngarten said:


> You got it. Plus you think of any possibilities of when the training could fail, any possible distractions, and train for them. You don't just train the behaviour over and over, you do this every where and with all sorts of distractions. It's all about prevention as opposed to being reactive to what happens, and continually building value for what you want.


I train for when it all goes right and then when it goes wrong. I start the dumbell in one room in the house, Then I move to other rooms. Then I take the dog to different places around town. I'll even work with it around livestock. I've also done busy parking lots. Shanty is doing a pretty good hold and starting to pick it up from the floor and hold. When I go do agility on Monday, I'll take the dumbell to do around dogs and agility equipment. As Sara says, the amount of conditioning that go into this. Khaldi was doing three run thorughs of trial routines/courses before reinforcement reward, the week before the trial. I really don't think people are working with changing the conditions or variable reinforcement schedules. The key is to mimic the competition environment and testing as exact as possible. 

T


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