# Don Turnipseed, this article explains why you are wrong



## Jeff Oehlsen

http://www.canine-genetics.com/

You NEED diversity. LOL


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## rick smith

re: "http://www.canine-genetics.com/
.......You NEED diversity"

very interesting article even tho a lot of links are dead if you try to get into it deeper

i've always thought over emphasis placed on line breeding canines was directly related to the development of the show dog industry and supported directly and indirectly by establishing organizations like AKC/JKC, etc 

but this seems to link the problem to just about any species man has had a use for and genetically messed with.

So, since the canine population is rather small compared to chickens, pigs, cattle and the like, it would seem those species would have REALLY gone "bad" by now. If not true, are they doing something dog breeders should be trying to copy ?


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## Petra Dabezic

I can't even bring myself to finish that.Only thing I would mention is that farms have a hard bottom line. Their pigs and chickens, in particular, are not some time-honored heirloom variety, they are very recent "breeds".Industry knows exactly what it wants and "ruthlessly" breeds to achieve it. There is not an ounce of incest morality about it. That's something that's always going to linger with most dog people. Even the people that probably agree with what I'm saying would feel kind of "eh" about letting two litter mates do the no-pants dance.


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## Don Turnipseed

John Armstrong, Jeff Bragg, and Helmuth Wachtal, have been pushing assortive breeding(breeding of no related dogs) for some time. Had discussions with Bragg and Wachtal. As many holes can be punched in their assortive breeding as was ever punched in inbreeding. Where inbreeding really went south, after it being used since people began breeding animals, is when show people started back breeding solely for looks and disregarded health. Poor breeding is poor breeding regardless of method. Many don't line breed today but are saving all the weak which will take them back to the same place....just takes a little longer. I do believe in diversity...but not with every breeding.


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## David Frost

rick smith said:


> So, since the canine population is rather small compared to chickens, pigs, cattle and the like, it would seem those species would have REALLY gone "bad" by now. If not true, are they doing something dog breeders should be trying to copy ?



Comparing cattle, for example, to dogs would be like comparing apples to donuts. In cattle, breeders know what they are looking for, and it's easily measured. Not nearly as subjective as what people are looking for in dogs. Does a particular type of steer produce more beef for less food. Easily measured. Does a certain "strain" of dairy cow produce more milk, or milk with a higher butter fat, with less feed etc. Again easy to apply an objective measurement. Dogs on the other hand are subjectively measured depending on what the particular flavor of the month is. 

DFrost


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## kristin tresidder

Don Turnipseed said:


> Where inbreeding really went south, after it being used since people began breeding animals, is when show people started back breeding solely for looks and disregarded health.



i'm sure it's also true in other breeds, but you can see an easy example of that in comparing gamebred bulldogs to their AKC/UKC counterparts. i have been hard pressed to find pedigrees as tightly bred, for as many generations, as i've seen in modern day match dogs, yet i'd be equally put upon to try and find more vigorous, healthy, mentally stable animals in great number. however, try that same track w/the vast majority of AKC or UKC registered "show" stock, and you'll find yourself on a road that goes nowhere good, and gets there fast.


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## Don Turnipseed

As David said, in cattle, there is a specific goal, and much of those goals are reached through cross breeding. Pushing the envelope for performance with cattle is not an option. They havem as the norm, one offspring, or, less often two. If they were pushed too hard, you would end up with none. None is not a productive number when the goal is $$$$. That is also why many dog breeders won't push it to far. It will definitely cost dollars in the end through smaller litters. People seem to lose sight of the fact that because they have 10 or 12 pups in a loosley bred litter, there isn't anything saying that they are all healthy. I brought in the East German pup to pick up the diversity I was losing. I can now take the offspring back to my own lines and not lose the performance by the F2 generation. The F1 generation, while it will have more vigor possibly, will still be up in the air until I can see what took after which parent. I need to pick the ones that take after my line to breed back to my males. Possibly pick the ones that took after Griff to breed back to him for different traits. But the genetics will be refreshed which is the bottom line.


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## Daryl Ehret

*New Level of Genetic Diversity Discovered in Human RNA Sequences*



> _Genes have long been considered the genetic blueprints for all of the proteins in a cell. To produce a protein, a gene's DNA sequence is copied, or transcribed, into RNA. That RNA copy specifies which amino acids will be strung together to build the corresponding protein. "The idea that RNA and protein sequences are nearly identical to the corresponding DNA sequences is strongly held and has not been questioned in the past,"_


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## Connie Sutherland

Petra, please don't forget to introduce yourself here:

http://www.WorkingDogForum.com/vBulletin/f20/

Thanks.





and back to the topic .....


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## Derek Milliken

Since Don brought up Jeff Bragg, and the link doesn't work off the page Jeff provided, some might like to read this:
http://www.netpets.com/dogs/healthspa/bragg.html

Jeff, if you like reading this kinda stuff, don't know if you've read this one? Kinda long, but worth a look.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I will look at it later, so many of these boobs have never actually bred, and are able to write these articles completely based on other peoples writings, and data from various incorrect articles. LOL

I would like to get this guy on here and see if he actually has done anything other than write articles based on biased work. ( from what I have seen in the first two pages )

After the success of Bataglia's complete bs ENS paper, why not give it a shot ? After all you really cannot prove any of that guys writings either. LOL I still see ENS dogs dying at 10-12 like everyone else's dogs. HA HA


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## Peter Cavallaro

comparing gamebred bulldogs to their AKC/UKC counterparts. i have been hard pressed to find pedigrees as tightly bred, for as many generations, as i've seen in modern day match dogs,

i've seen in modern day match dogs

i've seen in modern day match dogs

i've seen in modern day match dogs

i've seen in modern day match dogs

i've seen in modern day match dogs

*mod delete*


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## Peter Cavallaro

MODS where the F are you, get the FBI on to this now


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## maggie fraser

kristin tresidder said:


> i'm sure it's also true in other breeds, but you can see an easy example of that in comparing gamebred bulldogs to their AKC/UKC counterparts. i have been hard pressed to find pedigrees as tightly bred, for as many generations, as i've seen in modern day match dogs, yet i'd be equally put upon to try and find more vigorous, healthy, mentally stable animals in great number. however, try that same track w/the vast majority of AKC or UKC registered "show" stock, and you'll find yourself on a road that goes nowhere good, and gets there fast.


Quite a cracker of a post that !!!


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## Gerry Grimwood

maggie fraser said:


> Quite a cracker of a post that !!!


 
What's that supposed to mean ?


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## maggie fraser

Gerry Grimwood said:


> What's that supposed to mean ?


Quite a mouthful I suppose!


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## Gerry Grimwood

So, why is shit for brains making such a big deal out of that ?


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## David Frost

Peter Cavallaro said:


> MODS where the F are you, get the FBI on to this now


We're here, perhaps just not as excitable. First off, it took awhile since we didn't know what thread you were talking about. Secondly, I didn't read that as she was supporting game dogs, but making a point of how tight their pedigrees are. If she is promoting "dog fighting", it would be immediately deleted, however, unless I am not reading it properly, I don't see it leading that way. 

DFrost


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## Peter Cavallaro

isn't witnessing a crime and not doing anything make just as guilty as the person doing it - have all your brains given up on your skulls and left.

the key phrase is "i've seen" 

if you seen it why didn't she go mental or if you were in danger get to the police ASAP.

Gerry you are a dipshit FO turd.


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## Peter Cavallaro

considering the illegal nature of the activity to "see it" would suggest you have already been vetted n accepted by the fraternity and are a trusted participant / aspirant.

you know what if this needs explaining 

FUGG ALL OF YOU A-HOLES


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## Gerry Grimwood

Peter Cavallaro said:


> isn't witnessing a crime and not doing anything make just as guilty as the person doing it - have all your brains given up on your skulls and left.
> 
> the key phrase is "i've seen"
> 
> if you seen it why didn't she go mental or if you were in danger get to the police ASAP.
> 
> Gerry you are a dipshit FO turd.


 
Did you ever stop to think that she may have been speaking about pedigrees you moron ?


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## maggie fraser

kristin tresidder said:


> i'm sure it's also true in other breeds, but you can see an easy example of that in comparing gamebred bulldogs to their AKC/UKC counterparts. i have been hard pressed to find pedigrees as tightly bred, for as many generations, as i've seen in modern day match dogs, yet i'd be equally put upon to try and find more vigorous, healthy, mentally stable animals in great number. .


Sounds like she's referring to animals as opposed to just 'pedigrees' to me. It's all in the interpretation which is subjective sometimes, isn't it ?


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## Connie Sutherland

David Frost said:


> We're here, perhaps just not as excitable. First off, it took awhile since we didn't know what thread you were talking about. Secondly, I didn't read that as she was supporting game dogs, but making a point of how tight their pedigrees are. If she is promoting "dog fighting", it would be immediately deleted, however, unless I am not reading it properly, I don't see it leading that way.
> 
> DFrost


Further discussion also brings up that there are other ways to "see match bred dogs" than the way immediately assumed by Peter. 

*But this is a good place to say that NO support for dog fighting or discussion of breeding for dog fighting or anything else to do with dog fighting is tolerated here. Ever.*

*
Not as important but still a fact: the name-calling posts in this thread are not acceptable.* The next one will result in banning. 


eta
This warning about dog-fighting posts does NOT imply that mods or admin think that Kristin is a dog-fighting devotee. It's a general warning that I think most people here already know.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Does fugg mean **** ? I am behind here. We were talking about Jeff Briggs and straton, and the next thing I know there is this word fugg. Weird.


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## Joby Becker

I think she was stating that she has not seen tight inbreeding as has been seen in the types of dogs bred for that purpose. NOT THAT SHE HAS SEEN THE DOGS IN ACTION.. and stated that the tight inbreeding has not caused the negative issues that some think it would...

I did not see that she said she watches dogfights.


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## maggie fraser

Joby Becker said:


> I think she was stating that she has not seen tight inbreeding as has been seen in the types of dogs bred for that purpose. NOT THAT SHE HAS SEEN THE DOGS IN ACTION.. and stated that the tight inbreeding has not caused the negative issues that some think it would...
> 
> I did not see that she said she watches dogfights.


_" yet i'd be equally put upon to try and find more vigorous, healthy, mentally stable animals in great number_. "

I'll beg to differ.

How could she make such a 'plausible' evaluation without seeing the dogs in action for which they were bred ? 'Cos she's talking shit if she hasn't.


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## Connie Sutherland

Joby Becker said:


> I think she was stating that she has not seen tight inbreeding as has been seen in the types of dogs bred for that purpose. NOT THAT SHE HAS SEEN THE DOGS IN ACTION.. and stated that the tight inbreeding has not caused the negative issues that some think it would...
> 
> I did not see that she said she watches dogfights.


We didn't either, Joby. As David said, and as I said, in the posts above.


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## Connie Sutherland

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Does fugg mean **** ?


Apparently the automatic **** thing doesn't think so, because "fugg" doesn't turn into **** when you type it.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Joby Becker said:


> .. and stated that the tight inbreeding has not caused the negative issues that some think it would....


Not sure how I missed this thread the first time, but pit bulls are some of the worst breeds out there for poor immune systems that lead them susceptible to demodectic mange and allergies. Not a good sign of invincible inbreeding. Plus their strong tendency towards cruciate ruptures and hip dysplasia, also a strong genetic predisposition. Can't beat the laws of Nature that doesn't favor that kind of inbreeding, sorry...


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## Joby Becker

> i have been hard pressed to find pedigrees as tightly bred, for as many generations, as i've seen in modern day match dogs.


some of those lines have been inbred for many many many generations.

I have seen plenty of them myself...the dogs, and the pedigrees, but never seen a "match".

most people also would consider a hog catching bulldog as a game-bred animal...


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## Gerry Grimwood

maggie fraser said:


> _" yet i'd be equally put upon to try and find more vigorous, healthy, mentally stable animals in great number_. "
> 
> I'll beg to differ.
> 
> How could she make such a 'plausible' evaluation without seeing the dogs in action for which they were bred ? 'Cos she's talking shit if she hasn't.


I can't believe I was gonna marry you...


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## Peter Cavallaro

stalemate, all is just assumption. 

only the "member" who made the comment can actually clarify the intent of the post.

silence would alert suspicion.

banning is better than associatting with posing hypocrites - if that ends up the case


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Not sure how I missed this thread the first time, but pit bulls are some of the worst breeds out there for poor immune systems that lead them susceptible to demodectic mange and allergies. Not a good sign of invincible inbreeding. Plus their strong tendency towards cruciate ruptures and hip dysplasia, also a strong genetic predisposition. Can't beat the laws of Nature that doesn't favor that kind of inbreeding, sorry...

So you looked at all these dogs pedigrees ?? You know while you were taking notes and such ??

How many pits did you see total ? How many of them did you see the pedigree on them ? What were the dogs names that these dogs were tightly inbred and linebred on ?

Call you dr strawman.


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## maggie fraser

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I can't believe I was gonna marry you...


You can quit all the soft talk now Gerry.... You're game on!


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## Maren Bell Jones

The shelters are full of enough of them right before they get their last walk down the hall. Scarred from fights and mangy (literally). You don't have to go to many trials to see performance bred pit bulls with hot or bald spots, red bellies and feet, yeasty ears and feet and so on. Same with their cousins the American bulldogs. All signs of immune system problems from food or environmental allergies or inability of the immune system to fight off common parasites like demodex (which is normally not a problem in dogs). German shepherds have even more weird immune system problems.

I'm realistic though. Anyone with a purebred dog likely has linebreeding in there somewhere to some degree to make a breed a breed. My dog has Lucas DDP twice and Elgos four times in his 5 generation pedigree, as it seems rather hard nowadays not to have Elgos in a working Mal pedigree somewhere. But continual tight inbreeding is going down a one way street in the wrong direction. At some point you have to stop and turn around before you crash. I can't hardly ever tell from Don's ramblings what direction he's on. Might be a turn around, but might be a roundabout.


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## Gerry Grimwood

maggie fraser said:


> You can quit all the soft talk now Gerry.... You're game on!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUzpX-KxNLg LOL...


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## Sara Waters

Some working sheepdog breeders do some amount of inbreeding to strengthen and capture some very desirable traits and produce some very good dogs. I think it depends how you use in breeding and line breeding, it can be seriously abused but in the right hands it can be used to good effect.


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## Martin Koops

It just not Elgos, Track most Malinois pedigree's back and you will mainly find Tjop and Dewet so just how diverse are these lines to begin with?


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## tracey schneider

Linebreeding alone can't make dogs healthy or not healthy, its just a tool, its sole success / failure rate is based on selection and sometimes that inclues a little fresh blood. You cant say poor quality animals are the fault of a tool, its not yhe fault if the tool. Jmo

T


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## Don Turnipseed

maggie fraser said:


> _" yet i'd be equally put upon to try and find more vigorous, healthy, mentally stable animals in great number_. "
> 
> I'll beg to differ.
> 
> How could she make such a 'plausible' evaluation without seeing the dogs in action for which they were bred ? 'Cos she's talking shit if she hasn't.


There are a lot of gamebred dogs around but they are not ever used for fighting. Some people just like them because they are solid with people. I know several people with them and they are amazing animals. Make no mistake, they are not anything like what most consider pit bull terriers. The energy is unbelievable.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: The shelters are full of enough of them right before they get their last walk down the hall. Scarred from fights and mangy (literally). You don't have to go to many trials to see performance bred pit bulls with hot or bald spots, red bellies and feet, yeasty ears and feet and so on.

They used to cull trash, now they sell them. LOL

You still cannot answer the basic question: Did you see their pedigrees ?

Your little straw man is on fire Maren, you ain't got no water !

Just because it is in a shelter does not mean that it is game bred.


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## Don Turnipseed

Maren Bell Jones said:


> The shelters are full of enough of them right before they get their last walk down the hall. Scarred from fights and mangy (literally). You don't have to go to many trials to see performance bred pit bulls with hot or bald spots, red bellies and feet, yeasty ears and feet and so on. Same with their cousins the American bulldogs. All signs of immune system problems from food or environmental allergies or inability of the immune system to fight off common parasites like demodex (which is normally not a problem in dogs). German shepherds have even more weird immune system problems.
> 
> I'm realistic though. Anyone with a purebred dog likely has linebreeding in there somewhere to some degree to make a breed a breed. My dog has Lucas DDP twice and Elgos four times in his 5 generation pedigree, as it seems rather hard nowadays not to have Elgos in a working Mal pedigree somewhere. But continual tight inbreeding is going down a one way street in the wrong direction. At some point you have to stop and turn around before you crash. I can't hardly ever tell from Don's ramblings what direction he's on. Might be a turn around, but might be a roundabout.


Your right, the pounds are full of pit bulls and a lot are scared up, thae pounds are not full of "gamebred" pit bulls because if there is a problem, they are put down. You have probably never even seen a true gamebred. They are put down for the slightest infraction showing human aggression. Tracey said they were way healthier than regular bred dogs and they are. Mother nature rules and anuy weakness is culled.....permanently. You never know which way I am going Maron, because you only know what you have read. You say you are realistic??? Far from it.


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## Don Turnipseed

I am curious, what trials did you attend where you saw true game breds Maren?


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## Peter Cavallaro

OK so did i like over-react in this thread.

does anyone know the poster in question that could put me straight or otherwise

or no big deal, who cares, whatever??


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## Laney Rein

I'm not wanting to get in the middle of this, especially with Jeff, but to back Maren, a bit, after working for many, many years in the veterinary field, in both high end clinics and low income areas, you tend to see lots and lots of breeds of dogs. In veterinary colleges, too, the clinics accept outside animals to be seen so the students get a chance to work in a "clinical situation" plus are required to do an intern/externship in order to earn their degree. While maybe not particularly seeing "fighting" dogs as clients, you do see alot of the same breeds. In general speaking, it can be said, and proven that certain breeds are predisposed to specific health issues. Pit bulls, boxers and a few other breeds are predisposed to having demodectic mange, which is a genetic disorder that is passed from a male or female that carriers the genetic problem to it's litter either thru the sperm or thru the uterine lining of the female. Since originally these dogs started from specific lines it is a given that while developing the breed, thru line breeding and inbreeding, these traits are passed from generation to generation. When an affected dog is bred to an outside dog, it then introduces that genetic problem to those offspring. It can be used in quite good ways, also, to bring out the best traits in a line. It is a common breeding method and when used properly by someone who knows the animals they're breeding, the goods and bads and the probable outcome, it is a sound practice. They always say it is safe to breed brother to sister 1 generation, father to daughter, but never mother to son. A big problem occurs when a breed becomes popular and indiscriminate people buy into the fad and breed anything to anything just to make a fast buck. Unfortunately, the animals suffer for this human error. All breeds wind up in the shelters, even top show dogs, sometimes due to unfortunate circumstances. Here in Phx, they are predominately pits and chihuahuas.


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## Derek Milliken

WOW,
Thought this thread might be interesting, but has it ever exploded?

Maren, interesting post a few back, I'd actually like to talk with you via PM.
Laney, I have to jump in here and say, thanks for the post but it's clear you don't know a thing about genetics. No matter how many vet clinics you have worked in.
1. Mange is not a genetic disorder. It is possible that inbreeding depression could lead to greater susceptibility to disease. Hence, certain breeds may be more prone to disease if they are consistently inbred. Especially if they are so tightly inbred that it has affected the variability in their major histocompatibility complex.
2. To say that genetics are passed through the uterine lining of the mother???? Antibodies and nutrition, yes, but genetics, basic gene sequences? Not a chance.
3. Father to daughter is safe, but mother to son is not? I don't think either one is safe, unless you're looking to expose genetic problems in the parent, and willing to cull all the pups. Or looking to create new strains of lab mice. Either way, neither one is better than the other, statistically they are the same.

Just my2 cents , after friends dragged me to the bar after work tonight


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## Mike Valente

Peter Cavallaro said:


> OK so did i like over-react in this thread.
> 
> does anyone know the poster in question that could put me straight or otherwise
> 
> or no big deal, who cares, whatever??


 

Over-react!??? Is pissing your pants over-reacting????

I understood exactly what she ment when she made the post, and she is 100% correct.
I believe if she knew how bright ignorance would shine on this thread she would never have made the post.](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)


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## Laney Rein

Whoa, Derek - try reading before spouting something you know nothing about. Demodectic mange is caused by a mite (mites are found in the hair follicles of all dogs but specific ones cause problems). In certain dog breeds and dogs bred from affected animals, if one or both of the parents carry this specific mite, it is carried by the female in encysted forms in the uterine lining of the bitch. When in the womb, since the puppies are attached to the uterine lining by caruncles (sp?) via their umbilical cords, they are passed the mite from the mother thru the blood source. The mange does not show up immediately but as the pups mature and go thru stressors, such as weaning, training, etc. their immune system is weakened leaving the body less able to fight the effects of the mites which expose themselves by loss of hair usually in round patches over the body or the skin lining the eye. They can only be detected by doing skin scrapings, and sometimes multiple, deep scrapings must be taken to see them under a microscope. I worked 7 years for a veterinary deratologist who did all the case studies for the Mitaban dip which is used to kill the mites. LOOK IT UP in any veterinary dermatology reference book.

They have proven thru studies that with the above mentioned crossings, you are more likely to get the desired results, but breeding the mother to son has been shown to cause the most genetically problematic individuals. I actually studied and majored and have a BS in large animal reproduction and veterinary medicine, and was accepted to the veterinary college from Colorado State University under Bill Pickett DVM and Ed Squires DVM who are reknown in the genetic and reproductive field. Look that up too! 

How do you think puppies get herpes, from their mother while in the birth canal, coccidiosis from encysted protozoan parasites in the bitch's uterine lining, etc. They don't get the problems, they have to come from somewhere. The somewhere is the parents.

Try looking things up before you go off on something you know nothing about.


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## Laney Rein

I forgot to mention the mites may also be transmissed from the mother to the pups thru the contact in the first couple days after birth during nursing. Again, it is affected by the weakened immune system of the individual - which this trait may be inherited. It is thus recommended that these positive dogs, while they can be treated effectively, should be kept from reproducing, in order to stop the spread of the "disease". It is not, however, spread from dog to dog. It always affects the pups directly thru/from the dam. Another specific reason not to breed mother to son.


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## Don Turnipseed

Much of this is a moot point in real life in breeding. There has never been a study done breeding dogs for generations. Most of what you find written, is anecdotal evidence gathered from breeders that have actually inbred or heavily line bred. If the writters want to put a bad light on this type of breeding, they talk to those that have done it and failed. If they want to put it in a good light, they talk to those that have had success with it. The purpose is to expose genetic problems and to create a specific type of dog. Gamenessl as in "gamebred" being one of them. No one pushes the limit on such breeding expecting to do it without, eventually, getting smaller litters and a few other things. I brought Griff in for that very reason. Maren does not understand my posts or whether I am coming or going because, in part, she has never bred a dog and expects people too breed for 100% survivability. Survivability is not the goal. One or two wild pups out of a litter of ten survive to adulthood in the wild canid population. Good healthy, very predictable dogs is the goal. Those that exhibit any problems with health or weaknesses are immediately culled. There comes a point, that, if you sleep at the wheel and don't recognize the signs saying it is time for some new blood, you line is doomed. 

The mange spoken of can be passed through any breeding done if the dogs have the propensity for it. It is not caused by inbreeding. It is caused, as Laney said, by a mite. They have bred the same strains of lab mice for 1000's of generation with no ill affects. Some were full half sibling for over 1000 generations. They have bred some that were short lived. Depends on the selection. Mange is not exclusive to inbred dogs. Dogs get it hunting coyotes. People today are not inbred and yet they are becoming more susceptible to many things because of the more sterile lives being led and by an overload of modern medicine. Vaccinations meant to stop one thing, tend to weaken in the systems to many others. One is deadly the others are not. Constant trade offs. Look around, you don't have to inbreed to put two recessives together. Hope this clears up simple reality for those that see life through rose colored glasses.


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## Sara Waters

They did a prolonged inbreeding or rats at the Wistar institute. Full brothers and sisters were bred together for 20 generations. The breeding stock were selected consistently for vigour and stamina. At the end of the intensive inbreeding there was a race of rats of larger size, greater fecunditiy and great longevity than the stock that the experiment had begun with.

So it was inbreeding plus rigourous selection. With brother/ sister breeding you select 2 completely different animals each generation rather than father/ daughter where you breed back to the same animal so is more ammenable to selction in this case. They key was to make health, stamina and fertility high on the list of selection priorities.


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## Laney Rein

Very good points, Don. While there are several types of mites and several kinds of mange, the dog must be a carrier of the "red mange" in order to pass it. It's not a contagious " Disease". It's the crossing of any 2 animals that either have these specific mites or are carriers and inevitably the Bitch passes it to the pups. By selective breeding, over many generations, traits may be accentuated or diminished thus producing a highly vigorous offspring. So the statement SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST prevails.


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## Don Turnipseed

Agreed,Mother nature rules Laney. We might think we bester her on occassion, but, in the end, she will be the last one laughing. Mites is just one of many examples. Bottom line, the female would be culled, the pups would be culled. One can take any two dogs today and chances are very good you are going to get double recessives some where. Because of that, all breeding is bad????

Here is a bottom line question. Vets have know for at least 20 to 25 years that dogs did not need yearly vaccinations. I knew a vet student many years ago and he said this was covered in vet school and he told me to stop the yearly vacinations. That being said, read Jean Dodds web and make a guess at what has caused more immune system failures. Inbreeding or vets? Of course, most animals used to draw conclusions about tight breeding have be vaccinated under the old yearly vaccination schedules. My dogs are stacked on top of each other genetically. Immune systems are shot? Outside of the rare one, the life spans meet or exceed the national breed average. Why . Because not one of them has ever been in a vets office is why. Yes, I know my litters are getting smaller again, but I have new genetics sitting out in the yard

Gettin back to the gamebreds. For those that have never seen them. They run 35 to 45 lbs., rarely 50 lbs. Most would think they were poorly bred dogs. Don't have the massive heads associated with standard bred pits. Staffies are bigger. These huge, muscled up dogs commonly seen are not in the same class.


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## Don Turnipseed

Sara Waters said:


> They did a prolonged inbreeding or rats at the Wistar institute. Full brothers and sisters were bred together for 20 generations. The breeding stock were selected consistently for vigour and stamina. At the end of the intensive inbreeding there was a race of rats of larger size, greater fecunditiy and great longevity than the stock that the experiment had begun with.
> 
> So it was inbreeding plus rigourous selection. With brother/ sister breeding you select 2 completely different animals each generation rather than father/ daughter where you breed back to the same animal so is more ammenable to selction in this case. They key was to make health, stamina and fertility high on the list of selection priorities.


Never thought about it, but, makes sense Sara. Choosing between full sibs, selection should be for differences. Interesting.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

That must be a different study than the one that Maren is always telling us about. Weird how that worked out. Her study shows inbreeding to be awful and useless, and here is one that the rats did really well.

To me, this is what breeding is all about. Some people just cannot, cannot see what is in front of them to save their lives. So, Marens experiment failed. Some people just get it. and their rats did well.

I also think that bringing up mange and what not is hilarious, as there are people out there in specific area of the country that have problems with it. I have not had a dog with mange ever in my life. Some people just live in areas where it is prevalent, and now it is a statistic that comes from inbreeding pit bulls.

No. No Maren. I have no time for love Dr Jones. Nor for this Briggs guy that has no study that he has done to prove himself. EVEN if he did try and prove himself, what are the odds that he would prove himself wrong ???? LOL Cull the healthy, and breed the sickly, and after a few generations he is still the champion of his world.

I know Maren is seething right now. This is like the 7th or 8th time she has had her ass handed back to her over this shit. Good thing you are a vet, and the people at the clinic won't have seen you get the shit kicked out of you in these debates. Otherwise maybe they don't listen so much.

Hurry up and get your own clinic so I can show up and get a bunch of xrays done, and bitch about them. HA HA


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> .... as there are people out there in specific area of the country that have problems with it. .... Some people just live in areas where it is prevalent ....


Then immune system deficiencies aren't indicated in generalized demodectic mange?

I thought that it was known to a sign of an inadequate immune system -- that just about every mother transferred mites to puppies and that most never show signs (being immune).


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

I am sure that has something to do with it, but there are areas of the country I have lived in that it is pretty common. Other areas I have not seen it at all. How does that equate in the way that people are thinking of it ?

I see it in dogs that are fed **** all, and lucky to get that more often than not. Is that still an immune deficiency problem, or an inbreeding problem ?

People get stuck on causes of things and do not even consider the rest of the issues. 

The cause here is this awful inbreeding. LOL My cause is people saying things are caused by inbreeding, and pointing out specific breeds, but never having looked at a pedigree, or probably even asking how the dog is bred go with that assumption. As you know, and assumption makes an ass out of you, and umption. : )


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I am sure that has something to do with it, but there are areas of the country I have lived in that it is pretty common.


I had no idea there were geographical areas of common and uncommon demodex.

I thought that almost all mothers in all areas passed the mites along and that most pups never developed lesions (being immune).


And Umption is an ass anyway.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Don Turnipseed said:


> Your right, the pounds are full of pit bulls and a lot are scared up, thae pounds are not full of "gamebred" pit bulls because if there is a problem, they are put down. You have probably never even seen a true gamebred. They are put down for the slightest infraction showing human aggression. Tracey said they were way healthier than regular bred dogs and they are. Mother nature rules and anuy weakness is culled.....permanently. You never know which way I am going Maron, because you only know what you have read. You say you are realistic??? Far from it.


Yeah, mother nature does rule and extreme inbreeding is not rewarded. That's why the Florida panther will probably be gone in 50 years and the cheetah will probably be gone in 500. And yes, I have indeed seen gamebred pit bulls. Won't speak for their owners because they're not members of this board.




Don Turnipseed said:


> I am curious, what trials did you attend where you saw true game breds Maren?


Go to about any protection sport trial that's not a joke to prop up bad showline GSDs and you'll see the pit bulls from those lines. The showline American Staffordshires generally don't work (though as in all dogs, there are exceptions).


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Derek Milliken said:


> WOW,
> Thought this thread might be interesting, but has it ever exploded?
> 
> Maren, interesting post a few back, I'd actually like to talk with you via PM.
> Laney, I have to jump in here and say, thanks for the post but it's clear you don't know a thing about genetics. No matter how many vet clinics you have worked in.
> 1. Mange is not a genetic disorder. It is possible that inbreeding depression could lead to greater susceptibility to disease. Hence, certain breeds may be more prone to disease if they are consistently inbred. Especially if they are so tightly inbred that it has affected the variability in their major histocompatibility complex.
> 2. To say that genetics are passed through the uterine lining of the mother???? Antibodies and nutrition, yes, but genetics, basic gene sequences? Not a chance.
> 3. Father to daughter is safe, but mother to son is not? I don't think either one is safe, unless you're looking to expose genetic problems in the parent, and willing to cull all the pups. Or looking to create new strains of lab mice. Either way, neither one is better than the other, statistically they are the same.
> 
> Just my2 cents , after friends dragged me to the bar after work tonight


Correct on all counts.  And very true about the major histocompatibility complex, which is heritable.


----------



## Tiago Fontes

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Yeah, mother nature does rule and extreme inbreeding is not rewarded. That's why the Florida panther will probably be gone in 50 years and the cheetah will probably be gone in 500. And yes, I have indeed seen gamebred pit bulls. Won't speak for their owners because they're not members of this board.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Go to about any protection sport trial that's not a joke to prop up bad showline GSDs and you'll see the pit bulls from those lines. The showline American Staffordshires generally don't work (though as in all dogs, there are exceptions).


 
In regards to gamebred bulldogs, there are so many tightly bred families, which by themselves almost make breeds within the breed... Therefore, you can find diversity if you know which traits you're looking for and how each dog is bred. The predictability of tightly gamebred bulldogs is very high...Meaning, sometimes by looking at a pedigree you will have a high chance of guessing what type of dog you're getting. Being they are being bred for performance and keeping in mind there are many sub families...the inbreeding and linebreeding proves to be an excellent tool. You can go to another family and basically outcross as if you were ALMOST using another unrelated breed to refresh your stuff. 

About gamebred bulldogs and protection sport trials... Would you mind elaborating which lines were these dogs from? A very very low percentage of gamebred bulldogs is suitable for high end manwork... Been there, tested that. 


Best regards


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Laney Rein said:


> Whoa, Derek - try reading before spouting something you know nothing about. Demodectic mange is caused by a mite (mites are found in the hair follicles of all dogs but specific ones cause problems). In certain dog breeds and dogs bred from affected animals, if one or both of the parents carry this specific mite, it is carried by the female in encysted forms in the uterine lining of the bitch. When in the womb, since the puppies are attached to the uterine lining by caruncles (sp?) via their umbilical cords, they are passed the mite from the mother thru the blood source. The mange does not show up immediately but as the pups mature and go thru stressors, such as weaning, training, etc. their immune system is weakened leaving the body less able to fight the effects of the mites which expose themselves by loss of hair usually in round patches over the body or the skin lining the eye. They can only be detected by doing skin scrapings, and sometimes multiple, deep scrapings must be taken to see them under a microscope. I worked 7 years for a veterinary deratologist who did all the case studies for the Mitaban dip which is used to kill the mites. LOOK IT UP in any veterinary dermatology reference book.
> 
> They have proven thru studies that with the above mentioned crossings, you are more likely to get the desired results, but breeding the mother to son has been shown to cause the most genetically problematic individuals. I actually studied and majored and have a BS in large animal reproduction and veterinary medicine, and was accepted to the veterinary college from Colorado State University under Bill Pickett DVM and Ed Squires DVM who are reknown in the genetic and reproductive field. Look that up too!
> 
> How do you think puppies get herpes, from their mother while in the birth canal, coccidiosis from encysted protozoan parasites in the bitch's uterine lining, etc. They don't get the problems, they have to come from somewhere. The somewhere is the parents.
> 
> Try looking things up before you go off on something you know nothing about.


Speaking of looking things up...the Companion Animal Parasite Council is quite well respected and is what fourth year vet students use to study for national boards. 



> Neonates are thought to typically acquire mites from the dam via direct skin-to-skin contact, but most individual animals do not develop clinical disease.





> Early studies of nursing neonatal puppies have found _D. canis_ mites initially within the skin of the face, and then over time mites are transferred throughout the skin of the entire body. Mites are not found in the skin of stillborn puppies or puppies born by Caesarian that are not allowed to nurse.


From: http://www.capcvet.org/recommendations/demodex.html

I have never heard of them transmitted the way you describe. Can you site where you found your information?



> While there are several types of mites and several kinds of mange, the dog must be a carrier of the "red mange" in order to pass it. It's not a contagious " Disease". It's the crossing of any 2 animals that either have these specific mites or are carriers and inevitably the Bitch passes it to the pups. By selective breeding, over many generations, traits may be accentuated or diminished thus producing a highly vigorous offspring. So the statement SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST prevails.


No. Many animals have demodex mites, include humans. They are considered normal fauna. The susceptibility to disease is the issue, not the presence of the demodex mites themselves.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Tiago Fontes said:


> In regards to gamebred bulldogs, there are so many tightly bred families, which by themselves almost make breeds within the breed... Therefore, you can find diversity if you know which traits you're looking for and how each dog is bred. The predictability of tightly gamebred bulldogs is very high...Meaning, sometimes by looking at a pedigree you will have a high chance of guessing what type of dog you're getting. Being they are being bred for performance and keeping in mind there are many sub families...the inbreeding and linebreeding proves to be an excellent tool. You can go to another family and basically outcross as if you were ALMOST using another unrelated breed to refresh your stuff.
> 
> About gamebred bulldogs and protection sport trials... Would you mind elaborating which lines were these dogs from? A very very low percentage of gamebred bulldogs is suitable for high end manwork... Been there, tested that.
> 
> 
> Best regards


As I don't like throwing people under a bus who aren't members and can't comment, I refrain from mentioning exact lines. Sorry...


----------



## Tiago Fontes

Maren Bell Jones said:


> As I don't like throwing people under a bus who aren't members and can't comment, I refrain from mentioning exact lines. Sorry...


Sure, but lines has nothing to do with people's names... It has to do with dog's ancestry, as you're aware. 
Sometimes I wonder if people really know what they are talking about. 


Regards


----------



## Derek Milliken

Thank you for the compliment Maren.
Although in the truest sense I was wrong about father to daughter and mother to son breedings being the same. From a nucleic DNA stanpoint I was correct, but of course mitochondrial DNA is only passed through the mother line. Of course that only really affects energy metabolism, and so isn't really what we were talking about, but thought I'd correct myself.
Perhaps I do know a thing or two afterall about cell biology (and for the record, biochemistry was my major, but who's counting?)


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> That must be a different study than the one that Maren is always telling us about. Weird how that worked out. Her study shows inbreeding to be awful and useless, and here is one that the rats did really well.
> 
> To me, this is what breeding is all about. Some people just cannot, cannot see what is in front of them to save their lives. So, Marens experiment failed. Some people just get it. and their rats did well.


Our outbred strain of CD-1 mice we used had an average litter size of 12 pups. We once had a litter of 23. The inbred strain of C57BL6s the other lab next door used averaged 5-6 pups, if you were lucky. And less maternal instinct and nasty temperaments too. And if Sara wants to post or PM me the study on Wistar rats, I'd be glad to read about it. But if inbreeding again and again and again were the answer in dogs, why does Don want to use an outcross? I've heard some vague "time to introduce fresh blood" comments, but nothing concrete. 

You guys keep bringing up Mother Nature. If inbreeding isn't the problem, why is the Florida panther likely to go extinct in 50 years or less? Why is the cheetah likely to go extinct in 500 years or less? Mother Nature doesn't encourage inbreeding.



> I also think that bringing up mange and what not is hilarious, as there are people out there in specific area of the country that have problems with it. I have not had a dog with mange ever in my life. Some people just live in areas where it is prevalent, and now it is a statistic that comes from inbreeding pit bulls.


Like I said in previous posts, just about all dogs have demodex mites on them. You cannot see them without a microscope. It's their susceptibility to the mites causing disease that's the problem, not their presence.



> No. No Maren. I have no time for love Dr Jones. Nor for this Briggs guy that has no study that he has done to prove himself. EVEN if he did try and prove himself, what are the odds that he would prove himself wrong ???? LOL Cull the healthy, and breed the sickly, and after a few generations he is still the champion of his world.
> 
> I know Maren is seething right now. This is like the 7th or 8th time she has had her ass handed back to her over this shit. Good thing you are a vet, and the people at the clinic won't have seen you get the shit kicked out of you in these debates. Otherwise maybe they don't listen so much.
> 
> Hurry up and get your own clinic so I can show up and get a bunch of xrays done, and bitch about them. HA HA


Compared to you who doesn't understand the seventh grade science concept that two recessives don't make a trait dominant? :mrgreen: Nah, I don't seethe about anything on this forum, least not about you, Jeff. It'd have to be worthwhile to seethe over. 8)


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

How many pit bulls were at these trials ? Were they really game bred, or is that another assumption ? LOL Game bred dogs, as has been said before, are not likely to be trialing in dog sports.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Hence, certain breeds may be more prone to disease if they are consistently inbred. Especially if they are so tightly inbred that it has affected the variability in their major histocompatibility complex.

Is this another assumption based on mice ??

Some people cannot see what is right in front of them. Look how many on the board show their high drive dog, and most of us just see an average dog. 

I would like to see the research where they bred dogs to find this out. Actually I would LOVE to see that. I cry bullshit.


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## Tiago Fontes

We will only know if Florida panther became extinct or not in 50 years, when we get there... Until then, it is only speculation. About the Cheetahs in 500... Should I comment? What the hell, I will... Before we know in 500 years if inbreeding depression caused cheetahs extinction, we should be more concerned about loss of habitat within the next 40... If things remain this way, we'll never get to know if inbreeding depression made cheetahs extinct in 500 years, lol...

Then, nobody is advocating (from my limited understanding) inbreeding as the sole tool of a breeding program... 

Do you think that inbreeding does not occur in nature? 

Lastly, if you only use outcrossing in certain dog breeds... How long will it take you to NOT be on a dead end where there are NOT enough individuals to provide fresh blood? Im sure it wont be 500 years, lol...

Regards


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Your all off track. The point I made once again is that the goal for most breeders is 100% survvability regardless of anything else. Survivability is not # 1 when inbreeding for gameness. Fitness on all fronts is #1. Stamina, energy, gameness and overall, health. Anything less is culled. 

Maren, if you don't know why I brought in new blood, you should stay away from breeding. No matter how tight a dog is bred in a line, outcrossing one time brings the offspring back to a status quo. By breeding Griff over my females, i will have nuimerouis pups that have 50% new genetics to take back to my males. everything will be back on track, litter numbers will be back and we go from there....until I see signs of beeing too tight again.
As Tiago said, in tightly inbred lines, the resulting offspring are predictable. In breeding one phrase comes to mind, most like Maren, will always see the glass as half empty, serious breeders will see the glass as half full....always.


----------



## Tiago Fontes

Don Turnipseed said:


> Your all off track. The point I made once again is that the goal for most breeders is 100% survvability regardless of anything else. Survivability is not # 1 when inbreeding for gameness. Fitness on all fronts is #1. Stamina, energy, gameness and overall, health. Anything less is culled.
> 
> Maren, if you don't know why I brought in new blood, you should stay away from breeding. No matter how tight a dog is bred in a line, outcrossing one time brings the offspring back to a status quo. By breeding Griff over my females, i will have nuimerouis pups that have 50% new genetics to take back to my males. everything will be back on track, litter numbers will be back and we go from there....until I see signs of beeing too tight again.
> As Tiago said, in tightly inbred lines, the resulting offspring are predictable. In breeding one phrase comes to mind, most like Maren, will always see the glass as half empty, serious breeders will see the glass as half full....always.


 
Good post... That sums it up nicely!


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## Don Turnipseed

Another thing that Tiago kindly pointed out. There are so many tightly bred families of different bulldogs, it is easy to find diversity. Ths is not the case in airedales. I would have added new blood a generation or two earlier, but there are no other lines in the US outside of mine. Griff comes from dogs that have been tightly linebred for 50 year behind the iron curtain. Taking any American randomly bred dog and bringing it into my line would likey be the kiss of death. Griff's line is a long lived line where the dog usually go 14 years. That is considered the very high end for airedales also. Diversity, mine are bred to hunt dangerous game, Griff's are bred for manwork. Very diverse.


----------



## Tiago Fontes

Don Turnipseed said:


> Another thing that Tiago kindly pointed out. There are so many tightly bred families of different bulldogs, it is easy to find diversity. Ths is not the case in airedales. I would have added new blood a generation or two earlier, but there are no other lines in the US outside of mine. Griff comes from dogs that have been tightly linebred for 50 year behind the iron curtain. Taking any American randomly bred dog and bringing it into my line would likey be the kiss of death. Griff's line is a long lived line where the dog usually go 14 years. That is considered the very high end for airedales also. Diversity, mine are bred to hunt dangerous game, Griff's are bred for manwork. Very diverse.


 
Just one more thing, 

There are many families of gamebred bulldogs, because dogmen started inbreeding within their own yards with a clear purpose in mind... 

If breeders focused on building tightly bred families in their breed, fresh blood would be easier to find (if needed) in other kennels/yards... It would help perpetuating the diversity. 

Over and out!


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## Don Turnipseed

That is exactly what I was up against Tiago. Very good point.


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Because of some of the undercurrents of this thread, I want y'all to know I took a dog to the vet today. Believe it or not. I went in and told them I didn't need the preliminary $50 check up. I didn't say something is wrong with him and leave it up to them to figure it out by running multiple tests. I said take him in, draw some blood and send it in and have it tested for Lymes disease and call me when you get the results. Got out of there with my shirt on for $120 bucks.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Is this another assumption based on mice ??


As you don't know the basics of genetics, I would assume you don't know what the major histocompatibility complex is. Why don't you go read a bit before "crying bullshit?" Reading about immunology should keep you sufficiently busy. ;-) And I appreciate how when rodent examples may help your argument, they're A okay, but when they don't, they're just assumptions... #-o:-\"


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## Terrasita Cuffie

http://www.informatics.jax.org/silver/chapters/3-1.shtml
http://jaxmice.jax.org/findmice/index.html

If you're into the mice thing, check out some of the laboratory sites. For instance, there is improvement after a depression and you have eliminated the "deleterious recessives.' Second, 3-7 pups per litter is considered good [C567BL] breeder potentional. 8 pups and beyond is considered exceptional. In wild/house mice average is 6-8 pups and range is 3-14. There are reports as high as 30 pups in fancy mice with range 3-12. Its interesting that in order for it to work they had to start from scratch since the first projects were based on random selection of related individuals.

Terrasita


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## Maren Bell Jones

Don Turnipseed said:


> Maren, if you don't know why I brought in new blood, you should stay away from breeding. No matter how tight a dog is bred in a line, outcrossing one time brings the offspring back to a status quo. By breeding Griff over my females, i will have nuimerouis pups that have 50% new genetics to take back to my males. everything will be back on track, litter numbers will be back and we go from there....until I see signs of beeing too tight again.
> As Tiago said, in tightly inbred lines, the resulting offspring are predictable. In breeding one phrase comes to mind, most like Maren, will always see the glass as half empty, serious breeders will see the glass as half full....always.


No, I have a pretty good idea of why you did, I just wanted to hear from you. Before you started mentioning the new dog, it sounded like you were going to keep inbreeding_ ad infinitum_. Just an interesting change...


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Tiago Fontes said:


> We will only know if Florida panther became extinct or not in 50 years, when we get there... Until then, it is only speculation. About the Cheetahs in 500... Should I comment? What the hell, I will... Before we know in 500 years if inbreeding depression caused cheetahs extinction, we should be more concerned about loss of habitat within the next 40... If things remain this way, we'll never get to know if inbreeding depression made cheetahs extinct in 500 years, lol...
> 
> Then, nobody is advocating (from my limited understanding) inbreeding as the sole tool of a breeding program...
> 
> Do you think that inbreeding does not occur in nature?
> 
> Lastly, if you only use outcrossing in certain dog breeds... How long will it take you to NOT be on a dead end where there are NOT enough individuals to provide fresh blood? Im sure it wont be 500 years, lol...
> 
> Regards


The fertility rate of Florida panthers and cheetahs are abysmal. Even if they were protected in preserves and zoos, they'd be toast. As I was trained as a biologist before I was trained as a vet, I think a better alternative for the Florida panther would be to possibly "import" some of the west coast mountain lion genetics after comparing the genomes. It's my opinion that the biological niche the Florida panther is filling is more important than keeping the lines "pure," which is eugenics nonsense anyways. 

Clearly inbreeding does happen in nature. But it's usually the last resort before a population goes extinct because of a founder effect (like the Amish) or population bottleneck (like the cheetah). Tons of species have very specific displacement strategies to minimize it. Pretty interesting stuff in population biology.

When you say outcrossing in dogs, do you mean outcrossing to different so called "lines" or outcrossing to a different breed? If it's for the health of the dogs, like the English pointer/Dalmatian project, I'm all for it.


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen

Peter Cavallaro said:


> OK so did i like over-react in this thread.
> 
> does anyone know the poster in question that could put me straight or otherwise
> 
> or no big deal, who cares, whatever??


Actually, yes I do know Kristin personally. And yes you´re overreacted. You just could asked for a clarification instead of just assuming, esp if you have read some of her other post.

And not reacting immediataly, not everyone is at the keyboard 24-7.


----------



## Alice Bezemer

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Actually, yes I do know Kristin personally. And yes you´re overreacted. You just could asked for a clarification instead of just assuming, esp if you have read some of her other post.
> 
> And not reacting immediataly, _*not everyone is at the keyboard 24-7*_.


 ehmmmm you are not telling me that there are actualy people out there that venture into "The great outdoors " and proclaim to have a life are you ? there is the Internet....who needs a life ? 

:lol:


----------



## Alice Bezemer

Peter Cavallaro said:


> OK so did i like over-react in this thread.
> 
> does anyone know the poster in question that could put me straight or otherwise
> 
> or no big deal, who cares, whatever??


was that a rethorical question or do you actualy need an answer....you do know what they say about asking stupid questions right ?

stop being a prick Peter...or expect to be treated like one if you do....remember the whole ass...u..me thing? or maybe to put it ever so eloquently " Assumption is the mother of all FUGGups "


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## tracey schneider

Its NOT the fault of the process/ tool but how it is used. I KNOW this conversation has been discussed before because the whole Florida Panther thing is something that interests me. The panthers CAN NOT be compared to a selective breeding program. These animals are inbreeding because of a loss of territory and that is the only selection criteria. Again, its a tool, use it wrong and you WILL get bad results, has anyone said any different?

I dont know of any breeder that practices a linebreding program that doesnt consider an outcross as part of the process at some point in time. Its like a packaged deal its not one or the other. Let me say that again, an outcross is part of the process. Id be curious if anyone is running a program as high as mice in COI, 98%, besides the whole lack of selection criteria issue. Another reason its not really comparable... its not black and white, good or bad, its all in the person pulling the strings.

Don can you share a pedigree of one of your tighter quality dogs?

t


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

if i got it wrong i will be more than happy to apologise to Kirsten either publicly or "PM'ly", if you are vouching for the person it would indicate i ah may have ran my mouth too quick - hell she should check her wording a bit better, the comment was wide open and highly suggestive - we're all freakin dog nutz here so whadda u expect. 

people fights not a prob, i love that sh!t, dog fights - i want to challenge those gutless turds in un-armed combat in the same pit they put their dogs.


----------



## Christopher Jones

Peter Cavallaro said:


> OK so did i like over-react in this thread.
> 
> does anyone know the poster in question that could put me straight or otherwise
> 
> or no big deal, who cares, whatever??


I think you more than over reacted, you made yourself look like a right Wanker. 
And if you havent been getting as many replys as you would have thought your super post deserved, most likely Kristen as well as others have you on "Ignore"?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Compared to you who doesn't understand the seventh grade science concept that two recessives don't make a trait dominant?

Or, compared to you, who only have mice, or someone else's work to go on. 

Add to the fact that your reading comprehension is shit, as Don has never said that he was going to inbreed forever, it was your assumption again.

You might think that you know what you are talking about, but reality is a completely different thing. Good thing you went to school all these years to still have some one you claim to have 7th grade science make you look like an idiot. Of course Don has also made you look like a dumbass many times as well. 

Not hard when all you have is someone else's work to go by, and none of your own.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

So, when you bred the mice, what was the criteria you were using to select who got to be bred ? LOL

Did you even know which ones lived longer, were nicer, anything ?? ](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)


----------



## Al Bincarousky

Peter Cavallaro said:


> considering the illegal nature of the activity to "see it" would suggest you have already been vetted n accepted by the fraternity and are a trusted participant / aspirant.
> 
> you know what if this needs explaining
> 
> FUGG ALL OF YOU A-HOLES



you my friend are an idiot. no one said they were watching matches. did you even read the post before your childish rant? are you even an adult? do you own a dog besides a shelter find?

pitbulls are some of the most tightly bred dogs around. i am a pedigree collector with over 20k amstaff and pitbull pedigrees dating back to the 1800's. what she stated was fact from a pedigree point of view. dogs bred the same way as their performance based relatives are referred to as gamebred dogs or match dogs. this is what they did for hundreds of years. not one place did anyone discuss watching matches. 

i would advise you read or research before calling in the feds...LMFAO. really... are you on PETAs payroll? 

remember it is AOK to have dogs bite humans but dogs biting dogs is bad mmmkay...


----------



## Al Bincarousky

maggie fraser said:


> Sounds like she's referring to animals as opposed to just 'pedigrees' to me. It's all in the interpretation which is subjective sometimes, isn't it ?


so why not ask instead of assume?


----------



## Al Bincarousky

maggie fraser said:


> _" yet i'd be equally put upon to try and find more vigorous, healthy, mentally stable animals in great number_. "
> 
> I'll beg to differ.
> 
> How could she make such a 'plausible' evaluation without seeing the dogs in action for which they were bred ? 'Cos she's talking shit if she hasn't.


since fighting is illegal here in the STATES one would only be able to gauge the performance of the one time gladiators by noting whether or not the dogs can actually endure the pre match conditioning which is not matched in many breeds save for maybe the greyhounds or sled dogs. 10-20 miles of road work a day or a couple of hours of treadmill work, jenny, flirt pole, etc... the dogs would be conditioned intensely for quite some time to ensure the dog was the strongest and had the most endurance for it's given match weight. the gameness aspect can no longer be witnessed here in the STATES however, the conditioning can. These dogs were and are athletes even if they never step foot into a pit/box/whatever. 

If a resume is needed for posts here I can assure you this would be quite a slow moving forum. instead of dismissing everything one says that may not sit right with you, you may want to question the poster in private or ask what it is that they meant before starting to rant and rave. 

just my adult $.02


----------



## Al Bincarousky

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Not sure how I missed this thread the first time, but pit bulls are some of the worst breeds out there for poor immune systems that lead them susceptible to demodectic mange and allergies. Not a good sign of invincible inbreeding. Plus their strong tendency towards cruciate ruptures and hip dysplasia, also a strong genetic predisposition. Can't beat the laws of Nature that doesn't favor that kind of inbreeding, sorry...


what are you basing this on? shelter dogs? in almost 20 years of owning this breed and networking with hundreds of people in scores of countries, i have yet to come across more than 1 or 2 pitbulls like you describe. a backyard bred pitbull is no better than a backyard bred shepherd. a well bred example of each breed is just that. dont base everything about a breed on a handful of dogs you may or may not have seen in your neighborhood. how many performance bred pit bulls have you actually seen in person?

if you line breed/inbreed on crap you get.... crap. simple punnett squares can tell you that. if you line breed/inbreed on the best of the best you concentrate those genes in the offspring. it is not for everyone but a skilled breeder will only be able to set type and maintain it via these methods. there are way too many variables for me to endorse "scatter breeding". linebreed, in breed, out cross. these are a true breeders tools.


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## Al Bincarousky

Peter Cavallaro said:


> OK so did i like over-react in this thread.
> 
> does anyone know the poster in question that could put me straight or otherwise
> 
> or no big deal, who cares, whatever??


i lived with her for 5 years. i can tell you that you did in fact over react.


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## David Frost

Al Bincarousky said:


> i lived with her for 5 years. i can tell you that you did in fact over react.



I think that part of the discussion is now closed. He said he'd apologize. Let's leave it at that.

DFrost


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## Don Turnipseed

Kristin, here is BlackJack's pedigree. There is 7 more generation behind these.


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## Al Bincarousky

fair enough. 

i am glad that there are some people here with some sense and knowledge to contribute. i wont quote everyone because that becomes obnoxious. however these people make it worth while to come here and read. the rest need to take a class or something or else read/listen before participating or calling in the long arm of the law :twisted:


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## Don Turnipseed

The vast majority of people today shy away from inbreeding because they listen to the the naysayers that have never done it. Here is something for the real heavy thinkers out there. Probably half of the dog population has some sort of immune deficiancies. Since the vast majority of these dogs are NOT tightly inbred, what conclusions can we logically come to? The first one obviously is that inbreeding IS NOT the culprit. Maybe it is breeding? Not likely because to many people have been breeding good dogs without immune deficiencies for too many years. What do most of these dogs have most in common? Modern medicine.


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## Christopher Jones

Meh, just keep doing what your doing Don. You have your goals, you breed your dogs to achieve your goals, and you have done this by breeding tightly on dogs which possess the traits you like. I dont really see why you have to explain yourself. Most of the knowedgable dog people I know understand the benefits to inbreeding on strong, healthy dogs and will do so if they think it would improve their dogs.


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## tracey schneider

Im not sure, but Don i think you keep calling me Kristen and Kristen Tracey??? if not Im confused


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## Don Turnipseed

SorryTracey. I read Selena's post and there you go.


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## Gerry Grimwood

Christopher Jones said:


> Most of the knowedgable dog people I know understand the benefits to inbreeding on strong, healthy dogs and will do so if they think it would improve their dogs.


I don't think it's fair to leave out the fact that there will be varying degrees of culling to produce the dogs you mention.

You can't have people thinking all you have to do is in/linebreed to improve something without putting some in the ground.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Don, you need a number system or something to help idiots like me sort out who is what generation of what. LOL 

GSD's usually the litters are A then B and C and a bit easier to figure out who is who, and stuff and junk.

Breeding is an art form. Knowing when to do this or that is not always that easy. Look how long it took Don to find a pup that was bred the way he wanted it to be bred. Personally, I cannot wait for the little shit to start breeding to see what he produces. 

When I see people busting out mice and rats it makes me batshit. What traits were you looking for in ****ing mice for ****s sake ? I am really curious to see how Jin and Jujubee turn out, and to see what they produce. It is the anticipation and the stupid wait that is killing me. I have gone into denial, as I was sure they were going to be 6 months, and then I actually stopped and did the math on my fingers, and no, they are going to be 5 months. 

If only they would hurry the **** up. Geeeez.


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## Don Turnipseed

Might be time consuming to do it now but a number designating the generation of each dog is doable.


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## Laney Rein

Don, I don't think you can blame problems that arise in any population whether it be dogs, rats, horses or......on Modern Medicine. The only part modern medicine plays today in true breeding is the fact that we are able to ship semen and diversify the lines we use. Even if it is to bring back lines to either line breed or inbreed. I have bred horses both as a breeder and for a top theriogenologist and that is the only medicine that is played in the game - is shipped semen. It is a lot of reading pedigrees, studying traits, performances, conformation of form to function in order to decide what mare to take to what stallion. In breeding livestock, I took goats and had great success in taking a daughter to a father and then outcrossing that F2 generation and possibly breeding it back to a cousin with similar lines in order to get the most sound and conformationally correct animal I could. No medicine involved. As a result, I have animals that normally should have a life span of 9-10 years old living 13 to 15 years old. It was all done in studying traits, conformation, health, pedigrees, etc - no medicine other than the particular vaccines needed to prevent common diseases of tetnus and over eaters in ruminant animals.

Are you proposing that the animals that fail in a breeding program to meet the breeder's standards should be shot, euthanized, clubbed over the head or drown in order to keep them from contributing to the gene pool? Is this what is meant by culling? In our business it is giving them to pet homes, without papers, or neutering the males (much simpler in livestock then dogs). To me, this is not the right answer in a breeding program in order to alleviate those animals that may not meet that high standard the breeder wants but may be impossible in alot of animals. This is worse than modern medicine. At least in livestock, they can be used to feed the hand that fed them. 

This may be the side of the coin most people either hide, don't speak of, won't admit, etc. because it is highly unfavorable in today's standard of animal care. I quit working veterinary due to the rape being committed to the client - vet bills being more expensive than doctor fees and the vets playing on the owner's emotions. I do most of my own medicine, but my dogs see my horse vet - much cheaper and a friend - same drugs, same experienced hands. So my thoughts are not because I'm promoting modern medicine, it is what I practice as a business.


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## Christopher Jones

Don, have you seen a drop off in litter sizes from your first litter to now?


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## Al Bincarousky

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I don't think it's fair to leave out the fact that there will be varying degrees of culling to produce the dogs you mention.
> 
> You can't have people thinking all you have to do is in/linebreed to improve something without putting some in the ground.



culling is an important part of a program. far too many people think it is important to use all of the dogs you bred. quite the opposite. if the dog has nothing to offer to BETTER a program then the dog should be culled from it.


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## Tiago Fontes

Maren Bell Jones said:


> The fertility rate of Florida panthers and cheetahs are abysmal. Even if they were protected in preserves and zoos, they'd be toast. As I was trained as a biologist before I was trained as a vet, I think a better alternative for the Florida panther would be to possibly "import" some of the west coast mountain lion genetics after comparing the genomes. It's my opinion that the biological niche the Florida panther is filling is more important than keeping the lines "pure," which is eugenics nonsense anyways.
> 
> Clearly inbreeding does happen in nature. But it's usually the last resort before a population goes extinct because of a founder effect (like the Amish) or population bottleneck (like the cheetah). Tons of species have very specific displacement strategies to minimize it. Pretty interesting stuff in population biology.
> 
> When you say outcrossing in dogs, do you mean outcrossing to different so called "lines" or outcrossing to a different breed? If it's for the health of the dogs, like the English pointer/Dalmatian project, I'm all for it.


 
When I say outcrossing, I am referring to a different family of unrelated dogs. Regardless of terminology, I am a supporter of types of dogs instead of breeds... Therefore you can breed tight in order to establish certain traits and outcross to a similar type when fresh blood is required. IMO, the FCI/AKC politics is what keeps this from happening and it is mostly what fuels opinions like yours. 

If you inbreed/linebreed on healthy dogs, you are preserving that health... After a couple of generations, outcross to an unrelated family of inbred dogs and you have diversity. You dont need to be reading so many books in order to learn this. Some of the best animal breeders I know were people who were out there trying and learning from their projects. 


Regards


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## Sara Waters

Maren - the rat inbreeding experiment was conducted by Helen King at Wistar. The rats were selected for fecundity, vigour, health etc. 

For cheetahs and other small populations in the wild, there isnt that deliberate intensive selection. With rats it would be easier to manipulate because of their larger litters and comparatively short lifespans and the ability to select breeding pairs based on certain criteria. In a wild population of cheetahs that is simply not going to happen. 

With using rats I guess it just demonstrated a principle that inbreeding doent nessecarily lead to failure and can be used for improvement if done correctly.


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## sarah lewis

Really informative thread.

My bulldogges are very tightly bred, by no means am I a genetics or breed expert by any means but I see no issue with it.

Just wanted to say how much I enjoyed reading this thread and how much I have learned from those of you with experience. 

Wondering what peoples thoughts are if we are dealing with a rare breed?
Where genetic selection is only a handful of dogs and they are spread out across the world?


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## Tiago Fontes

Start your selection process based on type of dog and make sure you're able of inbreeding the "pure" rare dogs you can find, so they become more prepotent and express themselves stronger in the offspring... 

After you have a foundation of healthy tightly bred dogs... find a similar type of dog (not the same breed but similar in history, function, etc) and refresh the gene pool with such blood... Then it's an ongoing process of inbreeding and outcrossing. 

Hope you get the idea... This is VERY general information, for it is far more complex than what was written.


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## Don Turnipseed

Laney Rein said:


> Don, I don't think you can blame problems that arise in any population whether it be dogs, rats, horses or......on Modern Medicine. The only part modern medicine plays today in true breeding is the fact that we are able to ship semen and diversify the lines we use. Even if it is to bring back lines to either line breed or inbreed. I have bred horses both as a breeder and for a top theriogenologist and that is the only medicine that is played in the game - is shipped semen. It is a lot of reading pedigrees, studying traits, performances, conformation of form to function in order to decide what mare to take to what stallion. In breeding livestock, I took goats and had great success in taking a daughter to a father and then outcrossing that F2 generation and possibly breeding it back to a cousin with similar lines in order to get the most sound and conformationally correct animal I could. No medicine involved. As a result, I have animals that normally should have a life span of 9-10 years old living 13 to 15 years old. It was all done in studying traits, conformation, health, pedigrees, etc - no medicine other than the particular vaccines needed to prevent common diseases of tetnus and over eaters in ruminant animals.


Oh? Why can't I blame it on modern medicine Laney. Others blame the problems on inbreeding even though there are very select genepool and breeds that are inbred today. They blame it on inbreeding out of ignorance and most importantlyBECAUSE THEY DON"T INBREED BECAUSE THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE BREEDERS. Make no mistake, it isn't only modern medicine that is leading to the deterioration of every genepool out there. Fault lays firstly at the altar of the "respnsible breeder" that goes to great lengths to save all the weak. Then there is modern medicine and the protocol of yearly vaccination which when on for years. Doesn't take a rocket science to figure out that after the first set of vaccines, it is years before they are given to people again. Giving them on a yearly basis to dogs was an easy way to get cash flow. When I was a kid, sick dogs were put down, not taken to the vet. The vet was there for stiches broken legs and other injuries mostly to do with environmental factors. Rarely were they taken for unseens medical problems and most dogs were never vaccinated. Dogs, were healthier, breeds were healthier. Sure, they got distemper and other things, but, they were normally put down. Kept the population healthy. Then came the new world order of responsible pet/dog ownership. The decline in genepools started snowballing from there. Everyone got their dogs vaccinated. Vets started employing scare tactics, preventative medicine and inspite of all this, the genepools are still declineing. Why? You are mistaken in your assumtion modern medicine does not figure in today. 



Laney Rein said:


> Are you proposing that the animals that fail in a breeding program to meet the breeder's standards should be shot, euthanized, clubbed over the head or drown in order to keep them from contributing to the gene pool? Is this what is meant by culling? In our business it is giving them to pet homes, without papers, or neutering the males (much simpler in livestock then dogs). To me, this is not the right answer in a breeding program in order to alleviate those animals that may not meet that high standard the breeder wants but may be impossible in alot of animals. This is worse than modern medicine. At least in livestock, they can be used to feed the hand that fed them.
> 
> 
> 
> If there is even a hint that the dog is kless than healthy, yes, humanley euthanize them. I see you used terminology for every gruesom method of euthanasia to get the most bang for your buck. I have never met a breeder yet that does not cull in the most human way because I have never met on yet that enjoys doing it. Culling the weak is the sincerest form of responsible breeding.
> 
> Other than that, if pups are healthy but don't have the confidence, social dominance or the grit I like to see, I place them in pet homes with no breeding rights.
Click to expand...


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## Don Turnipseed

Christopher Jones said:


> Don, have you seen a drop off in litter sizes from your first litter to now?


Yes I have. The litter size has remained constant, but the survivability is what has dropped off. At one point, survivability was down as low as 20%. It was do or die at that point and I tightened them up some more using the small percentage of survivors. The numbers climbed back up to 80% to 90% survivability. That is when I started looking for a suitable new line of genetics to bring in. Right now it is about 
50 %. I really would have liked to introduce Griff earlier, but, it isn't that easy in theis breed to find suitable donors today.


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## maggie fraser

Al Bincarousky said:


> If a resume is needed for posts here I can assure you this would be quite a slow moving forum. instead of dismissing everything one says that may not sit right with you, you may want to question the poster in private or ask what it is that they meant before starting to rant and rave.
> 
> just my adult $.02


I can assure you, that was no 'rant and rave', and had already intimated interpretation was subjective of which you seemed to have taken note by quoting my post.

Also, it isn't very polite to barge in and patronise, particularly when one apparently hasn't introduced themself as per forum rules . 

Anyway, your informative contribution has been quite interesting along with others, and I have learned a little something from this thread, maybe.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Wondering what peoples thoughts are if we are dealing with a rare breed?
Where genetic selection is only a handful of dogs and they are spread out across the world?

We need to get Debbie Skinner on here to talk about that. She has beacerons and they are not really rare, but she has something cooking. I would like to see her input, as she has similar issues as Don does, which is most of the dogs are show and what she is trying to do is breed for working ability. Before I screw up anything, I am going to ask her to tell the story.


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## Debbie Skinner

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Wondering what peoples thoughts are if we are dealing with a rare breed?
> Where genetic selection is only a handful of dogs and they are spread out across the world?
> 
> We need to get Debbie Skinner on here to talk about that. She has beacerons and they are not really rare, but she has something cooking. I would like to see her input, as she has similar issues as Don does, which is most of the dogs are show and what she is trying to do is breed for working ability. Before I screw up anything, I am going to ask her to tell the story.


I haven't started the out-cross yet. I've line-bred a lot within the Beauceron breed as have others that are trying to breed for work and character. We've all had inconsistant results..few working individuals per litter. My goal is to bring in working drives and character and health by using a malinois-type working dog. I do not see a way to do this w/o going outside the breed gene pool after trying for 20 years and others have tried longer. I just haven't taken the next step. I need to find the right individual out-cross to use..preferrable a female of the correct color or genes that will throw bi-color, know the health history and know the pedigree (line-bred of course..not a GSD/Mal cross for example) Haven't gotten that part of the puzzle yet. Have the Beaucerons I want to use: Avatar, FRIII and his sire Phantom's semen. These indivuals have the drives I want (bite and crazy retrieve and hunt drives along with heart and good character). Also have access to a Avatar daughter that is double Phantom. 

I may just have to take one of my line-bred/inbred Zodt females as I know them and their bloodlines. They carry recessive blue which may help me get to bi-color faster and also Zodt has thrown extended saddled (bi-color looking pups). Problem is that I know that when I use my nice malinois females with an equivalent male Malinois that I get excellent results and these dogs go on to good working homes and careers. It's hard right now to take one of my girls to a Beauce and get only a few that are good or....

My big hurdle is the bi-color and then I have to also get double hind-dews. I can get the dogs confirmed in France if they are Beauceron in appearance and have merit.

Friday is a busy day for boarding. I'll be back.


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## Nicole Stark

sarah lewis said:


> Wondering what peoples thoughts are if we are dealing with a rare breed?
> Where genetic selection is only a handful of dogs and they are spread out across the world?


Read Tiago's reply above. It's probably not the best example but my dog is bred exactly in this manner. Two breeds of similar type on the extreme end were infused and along the way in 4 generations the type didn't change, but the health of the dogs did. Longevity in this process is consistently quite good throughout with many of the dogs seeing 10-12 years of age, some seeing a bit more. Others that I had that were "purebred" were dead by 7 at the latest, 2 1/2 the earliest.


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## sarah lewis

Very interesting thank you for the replies.

Although I have bulldogges, and its quite different in the sense that its easy to find dogs that "look the part" but incredibly difficult to find health and working ability along with that "type", and they are incredibly capable as a breed (of having good working drives, abilities and health) but breeders just don't breed for it. And I am not talking about American Bulldogs here because I think some breeders are taking the right steps (just not enough of them).

Its like trying to polish a turd sometimes lol.

Genetics is a very fascinating aspect of the domestic dog (for me anyways) just because we know so little about it, when you look at the entire picture.


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## Laney Rein

Don, must to clarify, I never said modern medicine didn't t play a contributing factor in bbreeding problems, I said you can't blame everything on it. I have never disagreed with your breeding program or the way you do things. I do the same practices in my business.

Also, I appreciate all reasoning for culling in a breeding program, And am glad you have outwardly stated you euthanize. Unfortunately, when working in an environment where the best breeders are seen as well as the bottom, and seeing how a lot of people take the attitude of "why should I pay the vet when I can do it myself", I wonder when the term culling is thrown around so loosely.

I have seen litters drown, horses shot in the head - owner missed and we had to finish the job. Not pretty or comfortable to deal with. So I applaud you. Only wish more breeders had same scruples(sp?).


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## Bob Scott

sarah lewis said:


> Really informative thread.
> 
> My bulldogges are very tightly bred, by no means am I a genetics or breed expert by any means but I see no issue with it.
> 
> Just wanted to say how much I enjoyed reading this thread and how much I have learned from those of you with experience.
> 
> Wondering what peoples thoughts are if we are dealing with a rare breed?
> Where genetic selection is only a handful of dogs and they are spread out across the world?



My first memory of a Chinese Sharpei (sp) was in 1971 when the Guiness book of records said it was the worlds rarest dog. Breeding was for the pet population so I doubt culling was ever considered. 
Today that breed is one of the crappiest on the planet. JMHO of course!


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## sarah lewis

Bob Scott said:


> My first memory of a Chinese Sharpei (sp) was in 1971 when the Guiness book of records said it was the worlds rarest dog. Breeding was for the pet population so I doubt culling was ever considered.
> Today that breed is one of the crappiest on the planet. JMHO of course!


This is a big problem with my breed as well (something I am trying to prevent with my dogs)

Even if you have a nice working litter its hard to find working homes, everyone wants a pet because they are so unique and OH the colors, the wrinkles lol. I think if I ever do breed I am probably going to place working quality pups at a discount (or even free), its the only way to attract people who are actually interested in what you are doing and want to recreate it.

Why go to all this work proving your dogs and to just have them as couch ornaments... pretty couch ornaments but ornaments none the less.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Compared to you who doesn't understand the seventh grade science concept that two recessives don't make a trait dominant?
> 
> Or, compared to you, who only have mice, or someone else's work to go on.
> 
> Add to the fact that your reading comprehension is shit, as Don has never said that he was going to inbreed forever, it was your assumption again.
> 
> You might think that you know what you are talking about, but reality is a completely different thing. Good thing you went to school all these years to still have some one you claim to have 7th grade science make you look like an idiot. Of course Don has also made you look like a dumbass many times as well.
> 
> Not hard when all you have is someone else's work to go by, and none of your own.


Nothing to do with reading comprehension. While I don't hang onto his every word and lick his boots like you do, I don't recall him in a good number of years now saying he ever of wanted to outcross to another line at his own kennel and not continue his inbred line _ad infinitum_. But like I said, I don't read his posts with the erm...dedication and admiration you do. ;-)


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## Don Turnipseed

Don't have to even read my post to have the common sense to know you can't inbreed forever. In any of the pedigrees I put up you will find outcrosses. Not many but they are there and they stick out like a sore thumb. Common sense also wouild dictate that if I had outcrossed in the past, it is likely I will do it again when it is necessary. I just simply didn't realize I needed to spell out something so fundamental to breeding.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Sara Waters said:


> Maren - the rat inbreeding experiment was conducted by Helen King at Wistar. The rats were selected for fecundity, vigour, health etc.


Sara, I could not get access to the original paper that King wrote, which is not surprising since it's nearly 100 years old. I try not to go by what someone says about the paper, or even sometimes what the author says about the paper, but read it myself. I did find a recent review article outlining the project by Ogilivie 2007 in the Journal of the History of Biology. It sounds like it would not have passed a peer review journal today as she had some sort of major husbandry problem with the project several generations in, which lead to a significant amount of mortality. The experimental design even back then was criticized as well. She was also a fan of the eugenics movement, as mixing of races was considered detrimental to the human species, which makes me wonder a bit about her motivations for doing the study in the first place. Here are some interesting quotes.



> The eugenic implications are clear in King's working assumption, "If no evil results appear, can inbreeding be used to improve a race by combining the best of the dominant characters with any desirable recessive ones that may appear?"83 As early as 1915 the popular press became interested in King's research. The Philadelphia Evening Ledger stated that "Dr. Helen D. King Declares Her Experiments with Rats Have Bearing on Human Problem." The article stated that although King preferred not to draw analogies between rats and humans, "if you press the point" she will admit that she saw no reason why the theories applicable to rodents would not be applicable to people. If inbreeding produced a rat from 20% to 25% larger than the average rat "*there is reason to suppose that the same sort of mating of the human race would result in a higher type of offspring*." King recognized that a cry of "heresy" would arise "on all sides as a result of the publicity of my research....I feel as the result of my experiments that if a brother and a sister of good stock were to marry, the children would be of a higher type than the ordinary, because the good points would all be accentuated." She contended that *"our repugnance to marriage with close blood relatives is only a matter of tradition and training*" and that "we have been taught by man that this is immoral, but there is nothing in Nature to teach us so, or in science, either."84 In another article that same year in the Asbury Park, New Jersey Press she explained again that "if close relatives carefully selected and of a higher type were to marry the result of the union would be a higher type of offspring than from the inter-marriage of two other people." However, if a "person who is insane marries one who is related to him or her there is much more danger to their descendants."85


So if you're single, look no further than the family reunion as a pool for potential mates to advance the species...just make sure nobody's insane in the mix. Any takers?












> For cheetahs and other small populations in the wild, there isnt that deliberate intensive selection. With rats it would be easier to manipulate because of their larger litters and comparatively short lifespans and the ability to select breeding pairs based on certain criteria. In a wild population of cheetahs that is simply not going to happen.
> 
> With using rats I guess it just demonstrated a principle that inbreeding doent nessecarily lead to failure and can be used for improvement if done correctly.


There's not? Everyone on this board constantly goes on and on and on about Mother Nature does and Mother Nature does that. Mother Nature culls the weak, only the strong survive, yada yada yada...unfortunately for the cheetah, not only is Mother Nature exerting strong selection pressure on the cheetah, so are we through poaching, habitat destruction, and so on. 

As someone trained as a biologist first and then as a vet, I don't see humans or dogs or cheetahs or whatever as being all that different from each other. We share much of the same DNA as mammals with very similar methods of reproduction even down to the molecular level. We do comparative studies with animals to get information not only about those organisms but ourselves as well. The comparisons are not always perfect, but the mechanisms are very tightly shared and we all have to play by the same biological rules, despite what some folks in Kansas would say.  But that's another topic for another time...


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## Maren Bell Jones

Don Turnipseed said:


> Don't have to even read my post to have the common sense to know you can't inbreed forever. In any of the pedigrees I put up you will find outcrosses. Not many but they are there and they stick out like a sore thumb. Common sense also wouild dictate that if I had outcrossed in the past, it is likely I will do it again when it is necessary. I just simply didn't realize I needed to spell out something so fundamental to breeding.


It's hard to tell from your pedigrees what you did versus what others have done. I am a chronological person as well as visual. You talk about 11th generation or 10th generation, but to me in terms of inbreeding, that means basically no outcrosses in that entire 10 generation sequence. Which doesn't seem to be the case? If you can come up with a time line of sorts of how many true father/daughter, mother/son, sister/brother type crosses, that would be more constructive than talking about "generations." That's partially what I mean when I say I can't tell what you're talking about half the time. :lol:


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## Gerry Grimwood

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I am a chronological person as well as visual. You talk about 11th generation or 10th generation, but to me in terms of inbreeding, that means basically no outcrosses in that entire 10 generation sequence.


I think that's how any rational thinking person sees it.. anything else would be an untruth, unless you're just counting breedings and litters.


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## Don Turnipseed

Maren. you don't understand what I am talking about because you know nothing about breeding. If you can't see the outcrosses in any of my pedlgrees, I will tell you what to look for.....the ones that don't say High Country. Go to the begining of that line on the pedigree and that will be the outcross. There is a pedigree posted on this thread. Shows some outcrossing from two outcrosses.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I think that's how any rational thinking person sees it.. anything else would be an untruth, unless you're just counting breedings and litters.


That was my interpretation. I thought he was literally doing 11 generations of bro/sis (or father/daughter, etc) crossings. Apparently that's not the case. So Don, just what do you mean by "11th generation?" I'm quite well versed on how to read pedigrees. Taught undergrads how to read them for genetic disorders for three years in grad school.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Maren Bell Jones said:


> That was my interpretation. I thought he was literally doing 11 generations of bro/sis (or father/daughter, etc) crossings. Apparently that's not the case. So Don, just what do you mean by "11th generation?" I'm quite well versed on how to read pedigrees. Taught undergrads how to read them for genetic disorders for three years in grad school.


http://www.nytimes.com/1992/11/10/science/cheetahs-appear-vigorous-despite-inbreeding.html?src=pm
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1200/is_n13_v144/ai_14504047/

Interesting read regarding inbreeding as it occurs naturally in the wild vs. captive populations. In the wild, it appears that natural selection and inbreeding has resulted in a relatively healthy animal without health and reproduction issues. Human and animal predation may be more of a problem than inbreeding itself. 

Terrasita


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: That was my interpretation. I thought he was literally doing 11 generations of bro/sis (or father/daughter, etc) crossings. Apparently that's not the case.

This is about the 5th time that he has posted a pedigree, maybe more. 

You know what they call the person that graduates last in their class at vet school ???

HA HA

You had to see that coming. Skim and guess MUCH !


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## Don Turnipseed

Maren, it figures you would only see the extremes. Half sibs, grandfather/mother to granddaughters/sons all out of related dogs stacked on top of each other isn't inbreeding is it. I am not sure why you even get into some of these discussions unless it is to show what you don't know.. It is all inbreeding, you just don't know it....you are just at one extreme. Yes, I have done all the crosses you mentioned also, but, it would require more frequent outcrossing and no suitable outcrosses in the breed.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: I don't read his posts with the erm...dedication and admiration you do. 

Well, that is because you have no idea how hard it is to do what he has done. 

The other funny thing is how you want to argue with him, but are too silly to bother reading the very thing that makes you look like a dumb ass.

I mean, really Maren, your dog doesn't even heel. You have never bred a dog in your life, and want to argue so badly how you are correct, as you have read a book, and you cannot even read a short post to see what he is saying ? DUUUUUUUUUHHHHHHHHH


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## Maren Bell Jones

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: That was my interpretation. I thought he was literally doing 11 generations of bro/sis (or father/daughter, etc) crossings. Apparently that's not the case.
> 
> This is about the 5th time that he has posted a pedigree, maybe more.
> 
> You know what they call the person that graduates last in their class at vet school ???
> 
> HA HA
> 
> You had to see that coming. Skim and guess MUCH !


*yawn* Like I said, I don't fawn all over his posts or his pedigree postings like you do. But it still doesn't explain this 11th generation thing. I'd expect to see one long line of nothing but High Country whatever whatever for 11 straight generations if that was the case and I never have. So yeah, no idea what he's talking about. I don't always agree with Gerry, but apparently neither does he.



> Well, that is because you have no idea how hard it is to do what he has done.
> 
> The other funny thing is how you want to argue with him, but are too silly to bother reading the very thing that makes you look like a dumb ass.
> 
> I mean, really Maren, your dog doesn't even heel. You have never bred a dog in your life, and want to argue so badly how you are correct, as you have read a book, and you cannot even read a short post to see what he is saying ? DUUUUUUUUUHHHHHHHHH


What, not letting my dogs breed indiscriminately? The local cattle producers around here seem to put more thought into it, from what I can tell. Yes, real mental chore there...I don't commit to anything serious as breeding until I can personally commit to it seriously. Someday perhaps, but not any time soon.

So my dog doesn't heel? Seemed to do okay enough to pass his BH (and his AD too) two months ago in North Carolina going out cold without home training field advantage, even in gay Schutzhund. :wink:


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Nice picture of your dog forging. I guess you wouldn't know that heel is a position, not a command.

A BH and an AD. So he can run and do basic ob in a pattern. WOW They pretty much hand those out to people that aren't going anywhere in Sch. Seen that before.

Quote: Yes, real mental chore there...I don't commit to anything serious as breeding until I can personally commit to it seriously. Someday perhaps, but not any time soon.

Lets hope never, as your book reading is not going to help you at all.


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## Don Turnipseed

Maren Bell Jones said:


> That was my interpretation. I thought he was literally doing 11 generations of bro/sis (or father/daughter, etc) crossings. Apparently that's not the case. So Don, just what do you mean by "11th generation?" I'm quite well versed on how to read pedigrees. Taught undergrads how to read them for genetic disorders for three years in grad school.


Maren, you don't understand what 11 generations of a line is but now you claim to have taught reading pedigrees to undergrads for three years. That's about as much bullshit as when you claimed to have done several years helping people with dog behavior problems when I told you didn't understand basic dog behavior. You always got a story. This all started because you made one very stupid statement and have been trying to cover it up with a dozen more since you started posting on this thread. You haven't seemed to notice that every one has called bullshit on you.You now say you were trained as a biologist before you were trained as a vet. Big deal. I have a lot more of both time and money invested in these dogs and breeding experience....experience is something you have a big zero in when it comes to breeding.


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## Don Turnipseed

> So yeah, no idea what he's talking about. I don't always agree with Gerry, but apparently neither does he.


Why would he. He said he bred dogs like rabbits and he was into sled dogs. He gave up on both. Three guesses why? People only stick with things they are successful at.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Jeff, I don't even "do" Schutzhund anyways. I found about this trial about two weeks beforehand as I was going to be in the region and decided to go for it for fun. Though I recognize you're arguing for the sake of arguing because that's all you ever do, heel is both a position and a command. Like sit or down.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: heel is both a position and a command. Like sit or down.

Oh good grief.

I argue with you to point out how stupid most of what you say is. Book smart life dumb. Kinda like that dead rescue a while back. Life dumb.

You have **** all of a clue about breeding and want to run off at the mouth like you have done it all your life, and of course you don't even have the common decency to read what the people you are arguing with wrote. Which of course makes it hard to consider going to you as a vet. You seem about as goofy as the rest of them, you know, the ones that run smack dab into a tree, as they can only see the forest ??

WHat do they call the person that graduates last from vet school ?? LOL


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## Maren Bell Jones

Don, unlike your...ahem..."stories," they are true. I taught a biology lab to undergrads for 3 years in grad school. I also did dog behavior consults before vet school. Any puppy miller can say they have plenty experience with letting two dogs have sex and having the pups survive long enough to sell. Does that impress you too? :lol: 

Anyways, just answer the question and stop being evasive cause I'm heading to bed and am bored of you and Jeff's adorable bromance. I told you mine. *What do YOU define as an 11th generation dog? *


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## Don Turnipseed

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Don, unlike your...ahem..."stories," they are true. I taught a biology lab to undergrads for 3 years in grad school. I also did dog behavior consults before vet school. Any puppy miller can say they have plenty experience with letting two dogs have sex and having the pups survive long enough to sell. Does that impress you too? :lol:
> 
> Anyways, just answer the question and stop being evasive cause I'm heading to bed and am bored of you and Jeff's adorable bromance. I told you mine. *What do YOU define as an 11th generation dog? *


Nice, I wake up this morning with Maren going back into her "puppy miller" routine. LOL Don't get mad at me Maren, you made yourself look stupid. I didn't do it. Jeff didn't do it. You've never needed any help. Seems being trained as a biologist before being were trained as a vet is making it easier for you to make yourself look stupid. 

As far as that inane question about "What I think 11 generations means". It means the same thing to me that it does to "normal" people. Your an exception and you taught pedigrees to undergaduates for 3 years. You can send me a C note for an explanation. Seems that is the only way you learn anything. ....or you can ask anyone else that has looked at that pedigree on page 10 of this thread because that is the last 4 generations of the 11


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## Jeff Oehlsen

You see Don how little attention she pays to detail ? I guess vet school is open book, or some shit.

Everytime she gets her ass kicked, suddenly I am gay. 

Maren, here is a little something for you that might help you understand just how silly you are.

A long time ago, there was a organization called the North American Schutzhund Association, or NASA.

That is where I started in Sch. In all, I have trained for myself, or others 33 dogs to the Sch3 level. I am more than qualified to tell you that you know **** all. 

You see, that is what is called experience. Something you don't have, and feel that you should, because you went to class, criticize.

That is why your book told you 11th generation = constant inbreeding. Your reading comprehension and arrogance skipped over the fact that he has posted pedigrees before, and you can CLEARLY see that he is not doing what you have been insisting he has been doing for a couple of years or more now.

That is why this is the greatest joke ever.

You have been arguing and chasing Don around for how many years because of your lack of attention to detail ? Because you ASSUMED that your definition was the correct one regarding the word generation ?

Whoooooopps.


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## Don Turnipseed

I am going to get off topic here for a moment. Maren, I know you were trained as a biologist before you were trained as a vet, but, I don't really give a rip what your training is. Feed that dog of yours in the picture. I like a lean dog for sure, but, when I can count every rib in a photo, without my glasses, and the hide is glued to the backbone through the waist, the dog needs more food. I suppose that is why he wants that treat so bad. I wasn't trained in anything and I can see that. Just an observation.


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## Sara Waters

Maren Bell Jones said:


> There's not? Everyone on this board constantly goes on and on and on about Mother Nature does and Mother Nature does that. Mother Nature culls the weak, only the strong survive, yada yada yada...unfortunately for the cheetah, not only is Mother Nature exerting strong selection pressure on the cheetah, so are we through poaching, habitat destruction, and so on.
> 
> As someone trained as a biologist first and then as a vet, I don't see humans or dogs or cheetahs or whatever as being all that different from each other. We share much of the same DNA as mammals with very similar methods of reproduction even down to the molecular level. We do comparative studies with animals to get information not only about those organisms but ourselves as well. The comparisons are not always perfect, but the mechanisms are very tightly shared and we all have to play by the same biological rules, despite what some folks in Kansas would say.  But that's another topic for another time...


Maren of course there is strong selection pressure in the wild and many populations isolated like on the Galapagos, and other islands have done quite well with the gene pool they were isolated with etc. I think with the cheetah they have small litters and the survival of the cubs in the early days is often luck of the draw with sometimes the strongest boldest cubs being killed. The ability of the mother cheetah is pretty essential and a lot of cubs born to inexperienced mothers are killed regardlesss of how good they would have been.

I really meant that carefully managed selection in an inbreeding program with rats with large litters is somewhat different. I know a sheep dog breeder who uses a reasonable degree of inbreeding and he has some brilliant dogs, so it definitely not something I would discount. Health, stamina and fertility are high priorities in his program. He believes that consistent inbreeding brings to light the undesirable genes whearas consistent outcrossing can mask them and allows them to be perpetuated unseen.

Random inbreeding with minimal selection is a different kettle of fish altogether. I have had some involvement with developing new varieties of wheat and backcrossing and heavy selection is commonly used to get the traits we are looking for including high yield and vigour


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I have been watching Cheetahs on tv since I was about 5. I see bigger litters than I ever did back then, it was a big deal to see 2. Now I see 3 and 4 when I watch vids on Cheetahs. 

Must be that damn Mother Nature, and inbreeding.


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## Tiago Fontes

Have you considered using good rottweilers and after establishing your type of dog outcrossing to Zodt Malinois? 

I find rotties and beaucerons to be *similar* type of dogs...



Debbie Skinner said:


> I haven't started the out-cross yet. I've line-bred a lot within the Beauceron breed as have others that are trying to breed for work and character. We've all had inconsistant results..few working individuals per litter. My goal is to bring in working drives and character and health by using a malinois-type working dog. I do not see a way to do this w/o going outside the breed gene pool after trying for 20 years and others have tried longer. I just haven't taken the next step. I need to find the right individual out-cross to use..preferrable a female of the correct color or genes that will throw bi-color, know the health history and know the pedigree (line-bred of course..not a GSD/Mal cross for example) Haven't gotten that part of the puzzle yet. Have the Beaucerons I want to use: Avatar, FRIII and his sire Phantom's semen. These indivuals have the drives I want (bite and crazy retrieve and hunt drives along with heart and good character). Also have access to a Avatar daughter that is double Phantom.
> 
> I may just have to take one of my line-bred/inbred Zodt females as I know them and their bloodlines. They carry recessive blue which may help me get to bi-color faster and also Zodt has thrown extended saddled (bi-color looking pups). Problem is that I know that when I use my nice malinois females with an equivalent male Malinois that I get excellent results and these dogs go on to good working homes and careers. It's hard right now to take one of my girls to a Beauce and get only a few that are good or....
> 
> My big hurdle is the bi-color and then I have to also get double hind-dews. I can get the dogs confirmed in France if they are Beauceron in appearance and have merit.
> 
> Friday is a busy day for boarding. I'll be back.


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## Tiago Fontes

Don Turnipseed said:


> Don't have to even read my post to have the common sense to know you can't inbreed forever. In any of the pedigrees I put up you will find outcrosses. Not many but they are there and they stick out like a sore thumb. Common sense also wouild dictate that if I had outcrossed in the past, it is likely I will do it again when it is necessary. I just simply didn't realize I needed to spell out something so fundamental to breeding.


 
Especially to such "trained biologist, veterinary and gamebred pit bull" expert. 

I prefer to learn from the layman with hands on, rather than the "library rat" who has an agenda: 
To prove that his/hers PhD theory is right and all others are wrong. 

The layman with hands on, usually tries everything and chooses what delivers him best results... Its not a matter of proving one theory over another. Its a matter of what works for you and what doesnt. 

Regards


PS: Im a fan of your Airedales. Keep doing what you do.


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## Tiago Fontes

Maren Bell Jones;275208 So if you're single said:


> Just wondering... Do you think that human isolated tribes in Papua New Guinea or even Amazonia have fresh infused blood all the time?
> 
> Dont be using the civilized Human Being Ethics in order to prove your point... That is just desperation to get your point across. We are discussing performance animals and how to lock traits, build prepotency and ensure you can always access a gene pool that will stamp itself in the offspring. Nobody is using or advocating inbreeding as the SOLE breeding tool.
> 
> 
> Regards


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## Debbie Skinner

Tiago Fontes said:


> Have you considered using good rottweilers and after establishing your type of dog outcrossing to Zodt Malinois?
> 
> I find rotties and beaucerons to be *similar* type of dogs...


I hadn't considered Rotties, but I'd have then out-crossing to 2 different breeds.


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## Tiago Fontes

Sara Waters said:


> I really meant that carefully managed selection in an inbreeding program with rats with large litters is somewhat different. I know a sheep dog breeder who uses a reasonable degree of inbreeding and he has some brilliant dogs, so it definitely not something I would discount. Health, stamina and fertility are high priorities in his program. He believes that consistent inbreeding brings to light the undesirable genes whearas consistent outcrossing can mask them and allows them to be perpetuated unseen.


 
Would this gentleman be Tony Mccallum? If so, I have talked to him a couple of years ago and he knows his stuff...

Please do not mention inbreeding or linebreeding as a matter of cleaning your gene pool... Next question loaded with drama will be:

"But how do you remove those genes?"...

My answer:

"Through surgery, dear...lol Now, go nap some and watch cartoons".


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## Tiago Fontes

Debbie Skinner said:


> I hadn't considered Rotties, but I'd have then out-crossing to 2 different breeds.


 
My bad... Didnt explain myself properly.

What I was trying to know is if you had considered rotties before using Malinois.


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## Debbie Skinner

Tiago Fontes said:


> My bad... Didnt explain myself properly.
> 
> What I was trying to know is if you had considered rotties before using Malinois.


I've looked at Rotties and they are not any "healthier" I think than the Beaucerons. It would be easier as far as color absolutely, but I'm wanting to improve on the working ability and health. Do you know a bloodline of Rotties that is extremely healthy w/o a lot of cancer, immune problems and HD that works? I'm open to this if there are any.


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## Tiago Fontes

Yes, in Belgium. I have seen two rotties from this kennel... These two dogs are working police K9s in my country. 



Debbie Skinner said:


> I've looked at Rotties and they are not any "healthier" I think than the Beaucerons. It would be easier as far as color absolutely, but I'm wanting to improve on the working ability and health. Do you know a bloodline of Rotties that is extremely healthy w/o a lot of cancer, immune problems and HD that works? I'm open to this if there are any.


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## Debbie Skinner

Tiago Fontes said:


> Yes, in Belgium. I have seen two rotties from this kennel... These two dogs are working police K9s in my country.


What kennel/bloodline? Just seen 2... Know much about the health and consistancy of the workability of the litters? I need to know more :-D I ask because if someone sees Avatar, FRIII from my breeding..they would think WOW Beaucerons work like good mals. But, it would be not a clear pix. I wish I could produce dogs like that always, but he's the exception.


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## Tiago Fontes

Debbie Skinner said:


> What kennel/bloodline? Just seen 2... Know much about the health and consistancy of the workability of the litters? I need to know more :-D I ask because if someone sees Avatar, FRIII from my breeding..they would think WOW Beaucerons work like good mals. But, it would be not a clear pix. I wish I could produce dogs like that always, but he's the exception.


 
I have sent you the information. If it interests you, it would be better to ask those questions to the breeder.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Debbie Skinner said:


> What kennel/bloodline? Just seen 2... Know much about the health and consistancy of the workability of the litters? I need to know more :-D I ask because if someone sees Avatar, FRIII from my breeding..they would think WOW Beaucerons work like good mals. But, it would be not a clear pix. I wish I could produce dogs like that always, but he's the exception.


Debbie:

Is your inbreeding based on Avatar? How many generations have you been able to do and to what degree did his working traits reproduce. I've seen one article in the U.S. on Tony's breeding program and it is based on strict selection and culling. He has said here that his dogs are "based" on the BC so I assume some degree of infusion. There was an accidental breeding here--1/2 brother/sister I think that produced one working dog and one that was pretty useless for breeding. Interesting as this is a total working pedigree. Lets you know that non-working is in the pedigree as well somewhere.

T


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## Debbie Skinner

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Debbie:
> 
> Is your inbreeding based on Avatar? How many generations have you been able to do and to what degree did his working traits reproduce. I've seen one article in the U.S. on Tony's breeding program and it is based on strict selection and culling. He has said here that his dogs are "based" on the BC so I assume some degree of infusion. There was an accidental breeding here--1/2 brother/sister I think that produced one working dog and one that was pretty useless for breeding. Interesting as this is a total working pedigree. Lets you know that non-working is in the pedigree as well somewhere.
> 
> T


No, Avatar is about 5 years old. Most my peds are on my site and also on www.working-dog.eu


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Debbie,


Do you ever get long coats in your litter. The stuff I've read on Beacerons is that the shepherd's dogs were long coats and to add size, the added great dane which also gave your the modern coat. Don't know how much credence to give that. I know there's been some talk of the Briard being related but the long coated Beauce seemed different from that.


Terrasita


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## Maren Bell Jones

Sara Waters said:


> Maren of course there is strong selection pressure in the wild and many populations isolated like on the Galapagos, and other islands have done quite well with the gene pool they were isolated with etc. I think with the cheetah they have small litters and the survival of the cubs in the early days is often luck of the draw with sometimes the strongest boldest cubs being killed. The ability of the mother cheetah is pretty essential and a lot of cubs born to inexperienced mothers are killed regardlesss of how good they would have been.


From what I've read, island species like those on the Galapagos are more heavily sensitive to extinction (I can PM you some papers if you like). Their MHCs are not going to be as broad and will be more sensitive to disease. I see cheetahs as fitting in somewhere between Florida panthers and northern elephant seals (who are also highly inbred). The elephant seals have an advantage in sheer numbers (though biologists worry about them as well), but dwindling numbers of cheetahs and the really small numbers of Florida panthers put them in grave danger. The two links Terrasita put up a while back commented on husbandry issues in cheetah breeding and that is of course a huge issue that sounds like it is being ironed out. That being said, even wild cheetahs have really poor nearly subfertile semen quality. I don't think there's an easy answer for those guys (which sucks, they're one of my favorite species). :-? 

Plants are a bit of a different story as they can basically clone themselves through asexual reproduction. Which brings up another interesting idea: cloning. Two of the goals of inbreeding are to make litters as alike as possible and also often to double up (or triple or whatever) on popular dogs from previous generations trying to recreate that particular dog. Cloning makes identical twins. With there being an increasing number of genetic tests that are available to screen for common disorders, if cloning were affordable and you paired that with extensive genetic testing, you wouldn't likely have to inbreed at all if you had the money. That's what the South Koreans were trying to do anyways...although due to epigenetics, even clones aren't identical down to the molecular level.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Tiago Fontes said:


> Especially to such "trained biologist, veterinary and gamebred pit bull" expert.
> 
> I prefer to learn from the layman with hands on, rather than the "library rat" who has an agenda:
> To prove that his/hers PhD theory is right and all others are wrong.
> 
> The layman with hands on, usually tries everything and chooses what delivers him best results... Its not a matter of proving one theory over another. Its a matter of what works for you and what doesnt.
> 
> Regards
> 
> 
> PS: Im a fan of your Airedales. Keep doing what you do.


PM sent.


----------



## Joby Becker

Maren Bell Jones said:


> From what I've read, island species like those on the Galapagos are more heavily sensitive to extinction (I can PM you some papers if you like). Their MHCs are not going to be as broad and will be more sensitive to disease. I see cheetahs as fitting in somewhere between Florida panthers and northern elephant seals (who are also highly inbred). The elephant seals have an advantage in sheer numbers (though biologists worry about them as well), but dwindling numbers of cheetahs and the really small numbers of Florida panthers put them in grave danger. The two links Terrasita put up a while back commented on husbandry issues in cheetah breeding and that is of course a huge issue that sounds like it is being ironed out. That being said, even wild cheetahs have really poor nearly subfertile semen quality. I don't think there's an easy answer for those guys (which sucks, they're one of my favorite species). :-?
> 
> Plants are a bit of a different story as they can basically clone themselves through asexual reproduction. Which brings up another interesting idea: cloning. Two of the goals of inbreeding are to make litters as alike as possible and also often to double up (or triple or whatever) on popular dogs from previous generations trying to recreate that particular dog. Cloning makes identical twins. With there being an increasing number of genetic tests that are available to screen for common disorders, if cloning were affordable and you paired that with extensive genetic testing, you wouldn't likely have to inbreed at all if you had the money. That's what the South Koreans were trying to do anyways...although due to epigenetics, even clones aren't identical down to the molecular level.


what about dogs?


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## Maren Bell Jones

What about 'em? Still waiting to see this mysterious 11th generation pedigree where he does nothing but tight inbreeding for 11 generations...and whatever happened with you going down to test his dogs, Joby? 

I have to check out of this thread though. Gotta go pack since I'm heading back down to Joplin tomorrow morning to work at a Red Cross shelter for the dogs and cats kept there with their homeless displaced people and won't be back until this weekend. I likely won't have much internet access.


----------



## Joby Becker

Maren Bell Jones said:


> What about 'em? Still waiting to see this mysterious 11th generation pedigree where he does nothing but tight inbreeding for 11 generations...and whatever happened with you going down to test his dogs, Joby?
> 
> I have to check out of this thread though. Gotta go pack since I'm heading back down to Joplin tomorrow morning to work at a Red Cross shelter for the dogs and cats kept there with their homeless displaced people and won't be back until this weekend. I likely won't have much internet access.


it was never ME that was going, was trying to set up a third party...I am still very interested in finding out about that aspect of the High Country breeding program..I think that got lost in the hubbaloo...Although that porch and all the alcohol is tempting...

I am a poor man..can't afford to go to the other side of the country to test a breed I have no intention of getting in to..


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## Don Turnipseed

Maren Bell Jones said:


> What about 'em? Still waiting to see this mysterious 11th generation pedigree where he does nothing but tight inbreeding for 11 generations...and whatever happened with you going down to test his dogs, Joby?
> 
> I have to check out of this thread though. Gotta go pack since I'm heading back down to Joplin tomorrow morning to work at a Red Cross shelter for the dogs and cats kept there with their homeless displaced people and won't be back until this weekend. I likely won't have much internet access.


The last four generations, including the 11th are posted on page 10 of this thread I believe. Can't post the whole 11 generations because it is be huge. Oviously you have never seen 11 generations layed out on a pedigree and just how many dogs are involved.


----------



## Don Turnipseed

For Maren's education

1 generation=4 dogs which are the foundation dogs.

2nd gen = 8 dogs.

3rd gen = 16 dogs

4th gen = 32 dogs

5th gen = 64 dogs

6th gen = 128 dogs

7th gen = 256 dogs

8th gen = 512 dogs

9th gen = 1024 dogs

10th gen = 2488 dogs

11 gen (BlackJack) has 4966 dogs behind him. And that came from the original four in the first gen.

The beginning of the line started with the foundation male and female incase you didn't know that. High Country goes back to that point and you would drop dead if you ever saw it layed out on paper to see that many High Country dogs taken from the original two. I will send you a bill for your education on pedigress. Any moron can figure out if you start with 4 dogs and only bring in two unrelated dogs in 11 generations for a total of 4966 names on a pedigree....most of them are inbred. But not you.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

No, no Don, she is a vet now, and has a background in biology. She taught pedigrees to undergrads. 

Kinda like Jeff Briggs work. Just read a book and guess. 

Worked for Darwin, he went to an island for two weeks and wrote a book.


----------



## Laney Rein

Don Turnipseed said:


> I am going to get off topic here for a moment. Maren, I know you were trained as a biologist before you were trained as a vet, but, I don't really give a rip what your training is. Feed that dog of yours in the picture. I like a lean dog for sure, but, when I can count every rib in a photo, without my glasses, and the hide is glued to the backbone through the waist, the dog needs more food. I suppose that is why he wants that treat so bad. I wasn't trained in anything and I can see that. Just an observation.


=D>

I was wondering the same thing, it's coat looks like crap, too. Working dogs may expend more energy when working. Common sense says to feed it more to make up for that. I would be very embarrassed to take my dog in public if it looked like that. Sorry, Maren. I know they teach nutrition and diet formulation in vet school, too. 

Know this is late, sorry, didn't see this before. Good catch, Don.


Debbie, I don't know what this would do to your out cross of breeds, but sticking to the color theme, working dog, excellent hunting and tracking qualities and smooth coat - you always have the black and tan to cross on, altho not much on herding and protection sports.

Love the banter, Jeff......sorry for the interuption.


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## Tiago Fontes

Don, 

Now the big question (totally unrelated to mice...rotfl):

Currently, are your dogs better than when you started? Is your line prepotent? Does it have working longevity and health? Were you able of locking the traits you were aiming to preserve? 

I probably know the answers...However, because several people who "know better" may get confused how you can have 4966 names in 11 generations and only two unrelated dogs, I thought it would be better to ask the questions in order to prevent misunderstandings. 

Best regards



Don Turnipseed said:


> For Maren's education
> 
> 1 generation=4 dogs which are the foundation dogs.
> 
> 2nd gen = 8 dogs.
> 
> 3rd gen = 16 dogs
> 
> 4th gen = 32 dogs
> 
> 5th gen = 64 dogs
> 
> 6th gen = 128 dogs
> 
> 7th gen = 256 dogs
> 
> 8th gen = 512 dogs
> 
> 9th gen = 1024 dogs
> 
> 10th gen = 2488 dogs
> 
> 11 gen (BlackJack) has 4966 dogs behind him. And that came from the original four in the first gen.
> 
> The beginning of the line started with the foundation male and female incase you didn't know that. High Country goes back to that point and you would drop dead if you ever saw it layed out on paper to see that many High Country dogs taken from the original two. I will send you a bill for your education on pedigress. Any moron can figure out if you start with 4 dogs and only bring in two unrelated dogs in 11 generations for a total of 4966 names on a pedigree....most of them are inbred. But not you.


----------



## Sara Waters

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Plants are a bit of a different story as they can basically clone themselves through asexual reproduction. Which brings up another interesting idea: cloning. Two of the goals of inbreeding are to make litters as alike as possible and also often to double up (or triple or whatever) on popular dogs from previous generations trying to recreate that particular dog. Cloning makes identical twins. With there being an increasing number of genetic tests that are available to screen for common disorders, if cloning were affordable and you paired that with extensive genetic testing, you wouldn't likely have to inbreed at all if you had the money. That's what the South Koreans were trying to do anyways...although due to epigenetics, even clones aren't identical down to the molecular level.


I have to respectfully disagree as far as plants go.

Many plants do not clone themselves but reproduce sexually whether it be by outcrossing or self pollinating. I think some of the principles would apply to dogs as well.

With wheat breeding there is no cloning as we dont want identical plants we want to keep improving. The pollen is taken and the plants are hand pollinated. Wheat is often backcrossed to fix the traits that are needed and once the genetics are stabe they can then be left to self pollinate and produce a reasonably uniform product. 

Just as a stable inbred population where only the best traits have been heavily selected and fixed can be continued to be bred. The one downside is they can be more vulnerable to disease as the genetics have been narrowed down( vulnerable to extinction I guess) but this doesnt matter so much in the domestic context.

Plants like ryegrass and wild radish are vigorous outcrossers, they are masters of developing resistance to herbicides. Canola is aso an outcrosser which is why you dont normally keep the seed from hybrid canola for a second season as you get all sorts of uneven types of plants. So backcrossing and outcrossing, hybridisation are used extensively in breeding of crop plants.


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## Debbie Skinner

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Debbie:
> 
> Is your inbreeding based on Avatar? How many generations have you been able to do and to what degree did his working traits reproduce. I've seen one article in the U.S. on Tony's breeding program and it is based on strict selection and culling. He has said here that his dogs are "based" on the BC so I assume some degree of infusion. There was an accidental breeding here--1/2 brother/sister I think that produced one working dog and one that was pretty useless for breeding. Interesting as this is a total working pedigree. Lets you know that non-working is in the pedigree as well somewhere.
> 
> T


I'll write a little more now. I just got a contract to transport and to board 10 dogs for a rescue that is trying to save dogs out of a high kill shelter so am scrambling a bit this week with getting the paperwork and details worked out. Sorry for the short answer before. 

When I originally started out I began with 3 males that were 1/2 brothers - Champion de la Loutre Noire FRIII, Flam LN FRIII and Havoc LN. All line-bred peds and all great working dogs (bite, character, retrievie). I out-crossed to Cite des Grands Feux another working line that is line-bred and I used Ce CGF and his son CGF. I was in a rush when I first answered and after thinking about it, I don't know if I ever got around to entering all the peds on working-dog.eu or my web site after I switched servers. I'll have to get them up on working-dog.eu Later I out-crossed using a couple dogs line-bred on Theo, FRIII. Loutre Noire has stopped breeding some years back and CGF now has gone to beauty dogs exclusively. Also, used a couple Ru D'Orly dogs about 10 years ago, which are the base of CGF, but that breeder stopped too.


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Debbie,
> 
> 
> Do you ever get long coats in your litter. The stuff I've read on Beacerons is that the shepherd's dogs were long coats and to add size, the added great dane which also gave your the modern coat. Don't know how much credence to give that. I know there's been some talk of the Briard being related but the long coated Beauce seemed different from that.
> 
> Terrasita


No, but through the CGF bloodline I can get wavy coats on occassion. I think the wavy comes from when they added Gorden Setter years ago...which was a stupid move imo. I've seen a couple longer coated dogs and seen the sketches in some of the French books I have, but never produced one. Yes, Briard and Beauceron were very similar once. 

Now I have to go and figure out how to transport all those dogs in one trip using my Golf and trailer. Luckily 4 are chis or toy types, but 6 are big. I'll take a pix.


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## Debbie Skinner

Laney Rein said:


> =...............
> Debbie, I don't know what this would do to your out cross of breeds, but sticking to the color theme, working dog, excellent hunting and tracking qualities and smooth coat - you always have the black and tan to cross on, altho not much on herding and protection sports....



Black and Tan coonhound??? Hunting like hunting *****? I need hunt drive for detection. Need trainable and strong character for manwork. Did I misunderstand? You think I should cross a **** dog?


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## Thomas Barriano

Debbie Skinner said:


> Black and Tan coonhound??? Hunting like hunting *****? I need hunt drive for detection. Need trainable and strong character for manwork. Did I misunderstand? You think I should cross a **** dog?


Debbie,

I have an all natural Dobermann female that some smart azzes call a black and tan coonhound....but you can't have her ;-)


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## Don Turnipseed

Tiago Fontes said:


> Don,
> 
> Now the big question (totally unrelated to mice...rotfl):
> 
> Currently, are your dogs better than when you started? Is your line prepotent? Does it have working longevity and health? Were you able of locking the traits you were aiming to preserve?
> 
> I probably know the answers...However, because several people who "know better" may get confused how you can have 4966 names in 11 generations and only two unrelated dogs, I thought it would be better to ask the questions in order to prevent misunderstandings.
> 
> Best regards


Are they better than when I started? I like to think so Tiago. None has ever been better in some respects than Winchester, but then that is why I bred so heavily on him. Winchester had no fear. I have had several of his offspring equal in that regard, but none better, but that is not a good trait for dangerous game. Today, the dogs are much faster, fight smarter, easier for most to handle, use their noses better. Overall, they are much better dog and much more predictable.

Are they prepotent? LOL Pretty much Tiago, many of the crosses I can't tell apart. I willmpost a couple of pictures to show this after worl. What many don't understand, including myself, is that when you are not breeding for looks, yet everything starts looking the same, that is the first sign that you can bet you are reaching a new level of genotype...or homozygosity. The first time I saw it, and realized what I was seeing, was amazing. I have never forgotten that day. It was Titan and Indian Maids pups. They were starting to get their legs and coming out of the whelping box and three had come out. I immediately notice they were like clones. I hurried in and opened the box to see the rest. The first picture is that litter. Took 8 generations.










These pups are 10 generations









These three females are all from different parents yet display even similar movement and looks. The smaller one is 6 mo, the other two are about 14 mo.










Tiago, they generally are at the high end of the expected for the breed as far as longevity. As far as health, I haven't owned a dog that has been to a vet in years. My oldest now is 10, Titan, he has never seen a vet and is in great shape. 

How can there be so many dogs on a pedigree.....because they are all the same dogs repeated over and over and over.


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## Don Turnipseed

and over, and over and over. LOL


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## Tiago Fontes

Very nice. Thank you.


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## Daryl Ehret

I didn't learn anything from my biology background of highschool "F" grades. But, for anything plant related, I'll be surely be picking Sara's brain. As I recall, those elephant seals that Maren mentioned have a _very high fitness level_, despite intensive inbreeding. So, I guess even so-called "random" inbreeding through nature has a chance of getting it right. Selective inbreeding ought to be capable of better.


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## sarah lewis

Beautiful dogs


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## David Frost

Don Turnipseed said:


> Are they better than when I started? I like to think so Tiago. None has ever been better in some respects than Winchester, but then that is why I bred so heavily on him. Winchester had no fear. I have had several of his offspring equal in that regard, but none better, but that is not a good trait for dangerous game. Today, the dogs are much faster, fight smarter, easier for most to handle, use their noses better. Overall, they are much better dog and much more predictable.
> 
> Are they prepotent? LOL Pretty much Tiago, many of the crosses I can't tell apart. I willmpost a couple of pictures to show this after worl. What many don't understand, including myself, is that when you are not breeding for looks, yet everything starts looking the same, that is the first sign that you can bet you are reaching a new level of genotype...or homozygosity. The first time I saw it, and realized what I was seeing, was amazing. I have never forgotten that day. It was Titan and Indian Maids pups. They were starting to get their legs and coming out of the whelping box and three had come out. I immediately notice they were like clones. I hurried in and opened the box to see the rest. The first picture is that litter. Took 8 generations.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These pups are 10 generations
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These three females are all from different parents yet display even similar movement and looks. The smaller one is 6 mo, the other two are about 14 mo.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tiago, they generally are at the high end of the expected for the breed as far as longevity. As far as health, I haven't owned a dog that has been to a vet in years. My oldest now is 10, Titan, he has never seen a vet and is in great shape.
> 
> How can there be so many dogs on a pedigree.....because they are all the same dogs repeated over and over and over.


I know it's only a picture and I know it's only the internet, but the dog in the center has attracted my attention. Can you stick that thing in an envelope and send it my way. I'd sure be willing to give it a job.

DFrost


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## Connie Sutherland

That center dog made me look twice, too. :lol:


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## Terrasita Cuffie

But, what I've tried to figure out with the inbreeding, other than homozygous looks/size, to what degree did the line produce working traits. How predictable has fearless confidence been and what percentage of the pups have had it. What percentage of the pups has what it takes to hunt hogs, etc. Seems there was some sort of depression in generations 7-9 which improved with 10. Did you see any problems [reproduction, physical soundness, confidence, etc.] with generation 11? I can see dogs added here and there. Was that just for hybrid vigor or to bring in wanted traits. If for wanted traits, have those traits continued to reproduce?


Terrasita


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Why are you trying to figure it out ? You getting an airedale soon ? You planning on breeding like this ?


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Its the breeding part I've been interested in all along. Don seems to indicate without really selecting for it, his line developed homozygosity in looks. Then theres the idea that non-confident sire or dam produces confident in the 9th generation I think. He seemed to indicate that confidence was homozygous as well depsite the phenotype of the sire or dam. I was wondering had he seen any impact of that in the 11th generation puppies. What I keep wondering is whether he has genotypically stamped certain working traits in the line. If so, what percentage of the pups have those traits. Does what he sees phenotypically reproduce genotypically at a certain percentage or reliability in the puppies. Its kinda what Tiago was asking in terms of whether this breeding scheme improved his dogs. He started with an idea dog---Winchester so with this type of concentration, another way of putting it is what percentage of a given litter are Winchester type dogs?

Terrasita


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Buy one and find out.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Nahhhhhh, if I were switching breeds, I'd be looking at Debbie's Beaucerons. They are herders and she has the health certifications. She's also mentioned certain working traits. However, that said, I bet a Dale might herd as long as it wasn't going for the throats. Terriers, unlike herders, weren't bred for truncated kill. So are you going to start something like this in GSDs with the two males you've acquired?


T


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## Don Turnipseed

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> But, what I've tried to figure out with the inbreeding, other than homozygous looks/size, to what degree did the line produce working traits. How predictable has fearless confidence been and what percentage of the pups have had it. What percentage of the pups has what it takes to hunt hogs, etc. Seems there was some sort of depression in generations 7-9 which improved with 10. Did you see any problems [reproduction, physical soundness, confidence, etc.] with generation 11? I can see dogs added here and there. Was that just for hybrid vigor or to bring in wanted traits. If for wanted traits, have those traits continued to reproduce?
> 
> 
> Terrasita


T, I can say the traits I originally bred for were in the high percentages and I have never had one of my dogs ever cur on a hog when it got tough. Measuring success in the breeding is tough because, even though every dog I took out hunted hard, other variable start entering the picture when you reach a certain point. I am sure you will find the dsame thing in stock dogs. Even though they all hunted hard, there are still some that are better because they hunt with you while some hunt for themselves. Interestingly, the ones that hunted for themselves were the lkess confident that tended to pack bond rather than be with people. All the really solid dogs that liked my company at least as well as the other dogs, hunted with me. IAs far as the dominance I like, that is something that is hard to put a percentage on. If they are raised like dogs here, they give no quarter,but, if they are removed as puppies and someone raises them like their kids, they appear to be less dominate and more social. Putting percentages on it is tough because the environment is a big influence. I have had people bring their airedales here to hunt with mine from different breedings and my dogs pay no attention to them. Others used to bring dogs bred here to hunt after they were several years old and their dogs spent the whole day gunning for mine and mine were gunning for their dog. We had some real knock down drag outs so I don't let people bring their dogs any more. Those dogs were not raised here and the owners were shocked that their seemingly sweet dog was so aggressive. Why didn't they know it..... because their dogs have never been around really dominate dogs because people breed away from it today. That makes it really hard to evaluate pups that leave here in regards to percentages.


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## Don Turnipseed

I posted pictures of several dales herding cattle in Co.


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## Don Turnipseed

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Its the breeding part I've been interested in all along. Don seems to indicate without really selecting for it, his line developed homozygosity in looks. Then theres the idea that non-confident sire or dam produces confident in the 9th generation I think. He seemed to indicate that confidence was homozygous as well depsite the phenotype of the sire or dam. I was wondering had he seen any impact of that in the 11th generation puppies. What I keep wondering is whether he has genotypically stamped certain working traits in the line. If so, what percentage of the pups have those traits. Does what he sees phenotypically reproduce genotypically at a certain percentage or reliability in the puppies. Its kinda what Tiago was asking in terms of whether this breeding scheme improved his dogs. He started with an idea dog---Winchester so with this type of concentration, another way of putting it is what percentage of a given litter are Winchester type dogs?
> 
> Terrasita


T , originally my dogs became more houndlike and their sole function was to hunt. After getting them to that point, it wasn't working because they are not supposed to be a single function dog. I found a female that was training hard and social. Put her in the line multiple times and eventually ended up with dogs that were multifunctional. Just took a lot more time to get them that way and that is when they started doing multiple venues and became more social with people. Sometime you just have to do things one step at a time to get the results simply because of the complexity of everything involved. It isn't hard to get a single function dog, but, there is no balance. Balancing things is done in the long haul. This is what is going to be interesting in regards to breeding Griff into the line. He is very different in many ways....but he doesn't lay down.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

It is too early to tell right now what I am going to do. The pups get stronger every week, and being the first breeding of the parents, I still have to figure out if I am going to even start with them. 

So far, I got pups that don't work right away as young pups. When I take them out,(not at home) they are not so hot on people approaching them to pet them. I have a few that will go into avoidance, a few that show teeth, and a few that just look at the people while they are being petted, then jump in their face.

All of them if left alone come around pretty quick. I did not socialize them a lot to see what their temperaments are like. New places they want to wander around and smell everything, and are environmentally sound, but still wonder why people want to touch them. Then, about 4 minutes give or take, they are better with everything, but still standoffish. 

Each of them have been off the property two or three times only. 

On the property, they are a pain in the ass, and learning to hunt for their tennis balls. They don't find them, they don't get to play. They pass up other toys to find their tennis balls.

I have one male who is a dud so far, he seems to be about two weeks behind the girls in everything, and is much softer about corrections. 

The rest are female, and I have one hunting maniac, one that I really like and have liked since the start, her drive to hunt is ok, but she will bite the shit out of you, one that is slightly less than my maniac as far as hunting, but is either really nice as far as biting, or looks at me like I am an idiot. Then I have one that came off the dud list, and is moving forward fairly quickly. She is a dog that is not doing it for herself, she is doing it because she has figured out what I want. No lack of talent, just had no idea I wanted the ball that bad. I have not worked her in bitework, she was on the dud list, and why bother.

Then I have a female that is on the dud list, but I am sure she will come around soon. 

I am not easy for most dogs to play tug with, most dogs have some issue with me when they are young.

All of them did alright with Drake a couple of months ago in the bitework. They had their momentary retardation with the harness, falling down and trying to bite the straps and what not. 

They get along for the most part, they like body contact a lot, and like to knock into each other. Lately I am seeing a bit of a change, so they will not be running together in a pack, I have had to chase them down and beat them to many times for their "arguments".

Probably explains why the ones that do bitework with me are not weaklings, and the duds all did well on Drake. LOL My dud is about the same as most people on heres dogs. LOL. 

I will see how the two.......... maybe three that I am considering keeping for breeding turn out. If they keep getting better, then I will make a decision.

I also think that if some of these girls had their own person, they would be way better than what they are now. They are GSD's, and I think that their need to have their own person is showing as a fault in some of the work, but by no means something I want to get rid of.


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## Peter Cavallaro

if u please some questions;

T, what is truncated kill?

Don, you say cur out when things get tough, the curs i see cur out until things get tough then they bite, once they bite they are kind of less of a hunting dog - is this a language thing what do you mean by cur out n why isn't that good, do u want gripping/catch dogs?

Jeff, what milestones would u expect to see in yr GSD pups to know if they are a prospect or not - can u say something simple that i could look for in my own - no big terminolgy words 

why do u put emaphasis on hunt when you do FR??



thanks for any help.


----------



## Don Turnipseed

To cur as in back out of the fight. It is a terminology thing. For instance, Higgins was hooked and toss 8' in the air 3 times by one hog. That would cause most dogs to cur. Higgins it just pissed off more and I had to shoot the hog in the hips because Higging had it by the face. Airedales tend to take the fight to the hog...bite, shake etc. They aren't really catch dogs. would rather see them bite than leave the fight. A dog that leaves the fight is a cur.


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## Peter Cavallaro

right got it, never ask again. FYI curr to me would be to stay in a fight as such but not to grip or hopefully bite that much. was into catch dogs when young, came to the conclusion it was less efficient, as mentioned once our dogs grip it is like the spell is lifted and they will always be a lesser dog eg a "catch dog".


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Jeff, what milestones would u expect to see in yr GSD pups to know if they are a prospect or not - can u say something simple that i could look for in my own - no big terminolgy words 

why do u put emaphasis on hunt when you do FR??

There is several exercises in MR that require the dog to use it's nose. The better that drive is, the easier it is to teach those exercises.

I want to see them before 10 months be able to take some pressure and bite well.


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## Peter Cavallaro

thanks Jeff, what about response to strangers that are not threatening - run up eagerly check them out, jump up try play with them any stranger or stand off a bit wary. talking untrained youngster that has not been neutralised to strangers.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Peter Cavallaro said:


> if u please some questions;
> 
> T, what is truncated kill?
> 
> Don, you say cur out when things get tough, the curs i see cur out until things get tough then they bite, once they bite they are kind of less of a hunting dog - is this a language thing what do you mean by cur out n why isn't that good, do u want gripping/catch dogs?
> 
> Jeff, what milestones would u expect to see in yr GSD pups to know if they are a prospect or not - can u say something simple that i could look for in my own - no big terminolgy words
> 
> why do u put emaphasis on hunt when you do FR??
> 
> 
> 
> thanks for any help.


Peter,

There are severl steps along the hunt sequence. Depending upon what you have bred for, dogs can exhibit certain traits along that chain that are stronger than others. At the end is kill. The kill part was bred out of herders--truncated. The best explanation I've seen was written by an Australian--Scott Lithgow with citations to Michael Fox. I also like hunt drive in stock dogs and a good nose. Comes in handy for the blind outrun/cast. I also like a dog that won't cur out and has fight drive. That dog will be in for the bitter end to make sure the job gets done, no matter how difficult the stock. 


Terrasita


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## Peter Cavallaro

thanks T, makes sense; 

bring the thing over here, no don't kill it .

cheers


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> It is too early to tell right now what I am going to do. The pups get stronger every week, and being the first breeding of the parents, I still have to figure out if I am going to even start with them.
> 
> So far, I got pups that don't work right away as young pups. When I take them out,(not at home) they are not so hot on people approaching them to pet them. I have a few that will go into avoidance, a few that show teeth, and a few that just look at the people while they are being petted, then jump in their face.
> 
> All of them if left alone come around pretty quick. I did not socialize them a lot to see what their temperaments are like. New places they want to wander around and smell everything, and are environmentally sound, but still wonder why people want to touch them. Then, about 4 minutes give or take, they are better with everything, but still standoffish.
> 
> Each of them have been off the property two or three times only.
> 
> On the property, they are a pain in the ass, and learning to hunt for their tennis balls. They don't find them, they don't get to play. They pass up other toys to find their tennis balls.
> 
> I have one male who is a dud so far, he seems to be about two weeks behind the girls in everything, and is much softer about corrections.
> 
> The rest are female, and I have one hunting maniac, one that I really like and have liked since the start, her drive to hunt is ok, but she will bite the shit out of you, one that is slightly less than my maniac as far as hunting, but is either really nice as far as biting, or looks at me like I am an idiot. Then I have one that came off the dud list, and is moving forward fairly quickly. She is a dog that is not doing it for herself, she is doing it because she has figured out what I want. No lack of talent, just had no idea I wanted the ball that bad. I have not worked her in bitework, she was on the dud list, and why bother.
> 
> Then I have a female that is on the dud list, but I am sure she will come around soon.
> 
> I am not easy for most dogs to play tug with, most dogs have some issue with me when they are young.
> 
> All of them did alright with Drake a couple of months ago in the bitework. They had their momentary retardation with the harness, falling down and trying to bite the straps and what not.
> 
> They get along for the most part, they like body contact a lot, and like to knock into each other. Lately I am seeing a bit of a change, so they will not be running together in a pack, I have had to chase them down and beat them to many times for their "arguments".
> 
> Probably explains why the ones that do bitework with me are not weaklings, and the duds all did well on Drake. LOL My dud is about the same as most people on heres dogs. LOL.
> 
> I will see how the two.......... maybe three that I am considering keeping for breeding turn out. If they keep getting better, then I will make a decision.
> 
> I also think that if some of these girls had their own person, they would be way better than what they are now. They are GSD's, and I think that their need to have their own person is showing as a fault in some of the work, but by no means something I want to get rid of.


Jeff,

How old are they now. Which few just look at them and then jump up--names. For me and from a genetic standpoint and your experiment, those would be the ones at the top of the keeper list. T There was a bitch puppy with a pink collar in one of the videos. How would you characterize her now? Just for clarification, what makes them a dud--bite drive? Mine have started out as people friendly/social. Then as early as 16 weeks--9 months they go aloof. No fear, don't back up or show teeth---just ignore other people. The one that was on the dud list, but coming off [pack drive/trainability] sounds interesting. You're right about GSDs and the people thing. One of the best dogs I've owned was the litter dud. When I tested the litter, I thought she was a dud but she was the only bitch so I thought I would gamble. Two weeks later--wallah. I don't think the guy paid that much attention to her. He was all about the males. All she needed was somone to focus in on her and someone to bond to.


T


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: thanks Jeff, what about response to strangers that are not threatening - run up eagerly check them out, jump up try play with them any stranger or stand off a bit wary. talking untrained youngster that has not been neutralised to strangers.

At the house they will jump and play with people no problem. The GF's son came to visit and they played with him and went about their business. It was dark, and they did nothing weird at all.

None of the people were threatening, just wanted to see the pup, however, a lot of them moved slowly and I think the dog didn't see it the same way that I did. LOL They don't avoid eye contact, and do not do the wide stance oh shit, they just move backwards away from the person. Not awful, not good either. The ones that showed their teeth didn't hackle, just kind of a back off thing, and that went away after a bit, but they were not solicitating attention. They have been exposed to people at the seminar I had when they were 6 weeks, then it was Drake, and they have seen Kevin here, and the neighbors, no interaction.

Pink is staying. She is a pain in the ass, and is biting me if she is not allowed to play tug. She is the one I like a lot as far as work, the one that I like for who she is is Jin. She got bit in the mouth by a copperhead a month or so ago, and so she will probably not work. I don't know how much damage was done, but her gums rotted away from the bone. We thought it was a wasp, as her sister had gotten stung a couple days before and swelled up. I guess Jin had to go one better.

Anna is the one that came off the dud list, she was the orange collar pup. She went from biting our pants and getting dragged across the property to weird sensitivity, and we will see what comes next. They all will jump in my face, and anyone else as long as they are here. 

I take Trixie out, the GSPx and everyone wants to pet her. I take the GSD pups, and I have only a few that want to pet them to begin with. They will be 5 months on the tenth. They look like they are older, as they are a bit bigger in my mind than I remember 5 month old GSD pups being. That is muddy water, and I could just be wrong.

The problem is how many there are, and how stinking hot it is. They seem fine working in it, but I get retarded after taking a couple out and have to be careful in my observations. My heat tolerance is getting better, but there are 7 of them and after about 4 I am pretty sure I am not doing as well. I rotate them the next day to make sure I am not missing things. Kinda sad, as I used to love the heat. Too old, too fat.

Soooo,

Jin is reckless, and is always limping due to it. She falls off the porch and runs into tree stumps and what not. She is sorta clunky like her dad. She doesn't get all emotional about it. Not even when her face was inflated and rotting did she care, she was still out running like an idiot, grabbing my shoes and socks and running off with them. She had one day where she was a bit lethargic, about half speed. She likes to bite, and she will come into the house and settle.

Jujubee is the pink collar, and she is all about doing the jumps and brings the toys back and goes as hard as she possibly can after the ball or toys. When I play tug with her, she accelerates into the tug/rag. She is quick and turns on a dime. 

Alise likes to hog her toys and does a good job of hunting for them. She was the yellow collar. She bites well intermittently, but she has a bad habit of running over to the kennels and stirring up the dogs and she gets in trouble for that, it has something to do with her work with me. She is reckless almost like Jin, but she is not clumsy. She runs at me and dives on me from a distance.

Penny was the sable with a white foot. She hunts better than all of them, likes to jump, and plays with the tug pretty well, and doesn't care about the baton. She misses shit a lot, as she stares into your eyes. LOL She also is a pain to put away, as she will run out and try and often succeed in finding another ball out in the woods. She goes out of her way to hog all my time. When it is time to get put up, she will play in the pool, splash water all over, and then dash back out to find another ball. When she does, she gets to keep going. She never brings it near me, but takes it and guards it from me. 

Anna is just off the dud list. She likes to stand between my legs like her father did when the others are running around. She puts up with a lot of the other pups crap, but when they take advantage, ( imagine that, a GSD taking advantage) she will back them all off. She is weird. Immature for sure, but I think she is one that will stand in the door for her person. Now if she could do better when she is off the property.... LOL She will hide behind me for a while, then she gets over herself. Not really brave when there are multiples of people. Not bad if no one notices her, that seems to be ok with her. Kinda spooky, but then not. too hard to think about, as she might still end up a dud on that end.

Axel is a dud. He likes to play with his clorox bottle, and grab the rope and bang around with it. He is behind the girls a lot in some ways, and a little in others. He is sensitive to the point where if he runs into you he will stop playing for a bit. He also likes to be petted way better than playing with things. He finds stuff easy enough, but leaves it on the ground. I don't think he enjoys playing with the ball (yet?) don't know.

Anika is the other dud....... sometimes. I have had sessions with her with the puppy sleeves where she is all that and then some, and then she will just use her paws on them sometimes. She is the other sable, she was larger than penny. She will chase the ball, and then maybe she picks it up, maybe she just goes off and looks at something else. Most of the time she will pick up the ball, but drops it to go see everything else.


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## Guest

The problem is how many there are, and how stinking hot it is. They seem fine working in it, but I get retarded after taking a couple out and have to be careful in my observations. My heat tolerance is getting better, but there are 7 of them and after about 4 I am pretty sure I am not doing as well. I rotate them the next day to make sure I am not missing things. Kinda sad, as I used to love the heat. Too old, too fat. 
[/QUOTE]

Hey Marine get educated, I know its been a while..... 
http://chemicaldragon.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/docs/Heat_Stress_Card.190164628.pdf


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I get an assortment of most of those symptoms. LOL Since when do you have to drink water ? Good grief, what a bunch of pussies.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Stop being macho and drink the water. I found that out a few weeks ago after working 7 dogs. Didn't think about it until afterwards and I was near passing out. But go figure, we like the same frickin dog. Thanks for all the great descriptions. I can follow them as they grow up--especially Jujubee. Boy you do have your work cut out for you with so many but sounds like you are making it work. 5 months can be a funky age. I've had a couple that tested fine at 7 weeks and then starting at 16 weeks they were in and out of weird periods until finally geling about 18 months when I pronounced them cured and that my testing didn't fail me. 


T


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## Peter Cavallaro

Jeff, overweight, lack heat tolerance, lack stamina, dude yr getting soft. 

u would be easy to kill right now.


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## Gerry Grimwood

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Jeff, overweight, lack heat tolerance, lack stamina, dude yr getting soft.
> 
> u would be easy to kill right now.


You guys just go lay in the shade when it gets hot right ??


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## Peter Cavallaro

yeah but we blend


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## Jeff Oehlsen

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYJEyToSRtE

HA HA.

I have horrible thoughts about this girl. Good grief jail time.


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## Gerry Grimwood

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYJEyToSRtE
> 
> HA HA.
> 
> I have horrible thoughts about this girl. Good grief jail time.


1992...she's at least 19 if she was just born in that video, you're pretty safe putting her in the spank bank :razz:


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Not really an age thing, a, er, um, lack of consention......... who gives a shit problem. LOL I might be able to control myself now, but years ago I might have just run off with her caveman style. : )


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## Don Turnipseed

I think Jeff mentioned ENS in this thread back aways. I brouight the 11 week old pup I kept in the house for the first time today. This pup has not been held but occasionly. No more tha 30 seconds to a minute of interaction a day and many days there is none. Being in the house didn't phase her, slick floors didn't phase her. Oh and this is an 11th gen pup. Named her Jacki since she is BlackJack's little sister. Had to separate Jacki and her sister at 8 week because of the brawls they got into. Jacki won all those and is still here because the people that took her sister didn't think they could handle this one. I am keeping her to breed to Griff because she will be a tall rangey dog.


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## Daryl Ehret

The whole concept of inbreeding depression was developed from a conservation genetics standpoint, and was never meant to be relevant toward domestic and selectively bred species. And, regarding such, _"The probability of extinction is relatively low for bottlenecks of greater than 20 individuals." _The Northern Elephant Seal is a fine example, of a species reduced to less than 100 at one point, which now flourishes at about 150,000 and is much healthier than it's numerous population of southern cousins. Loss of fitness can just as equally occur as an effect of outbreeding depression, while the positive effects of inbreeding through natural selection and genetic drift can lead to the elimination of deleterious alleles in the population.



> Genetic Consequences of a Severe Population Bottleneck in the Guadalupe Fur Seal
> Journal of Heredity Volume95, Issue2 Pp. 144-153
> 
> Theoretically, low levels of genetic variation may substantially increase the probability that a species may go extinct—the “central dogma of conservation genetics” (Lehman 1998 ). Yet several species, particularly marine mammals, are now robust and evidently doing very well despite substantial population and genetic bottlenecks and environmental change (including anthropogenic change and resource extraction). *Consequently our data, and those from other recent studies, suggest caution in labeling any species as having “high” or “low” levels of variation, as this may give a misleading snapshot of the genetic health of the species and be of limited relevance in assessing its likelihood of persistence*.





> *Is there a correlation between conservation genetic status and health in dog breeds? *
> Maria Jansson, a, and Linda Laikrea
> 
> a Department of Zoology, Division of Population Genetics, SE-10691 Stockholm, Sweden
> 
> 
> Available online 18 January 2011.
> 
> 
> Key words: conservation genetics; domestic breeds; pedigree analysis; inbreeding in dogs
> 
> One problem in modern dogs is a high occurrence of physical diseases, defects, and disorders. Many breeds exhibit physical problems that affect individuals already at young ages, and veterinary care and/or various drugs are in some cases needed throughout life. A potential cause of these problems is inbreeding and loss of genetic variation that is known to reduce the viability of individuals and is associated with increased occurrences of hereditary disorders governed by autosomal recessive alleles. During recent years increasing conservation genetic focus has been devoted to domestic animal populations. This attention includes both scientific efforts and international and national policy work. Domestic populations are traditionally bred through strong selection. Only a few animals are used in breeding, resulting in considerable loss of genetic variation. Conservation breeding aims at reducing the rate of loss of genetic variation, and this includes reducing selective pressures. This research addresses the question of whether “unhealthy” dog breeds exhibit elevated rates of inbreeding and loss of genetic variation as compared to “healthy” breeds.
> 
> We compare the conservation genetic status of groups of dog breeds classified on the basis of their health status. Our classification of “healthy” vs. “unhealthy” breeds is based on statistics on extent of veterinary care obtained from Sweden’s four most important insurance companies for pets. Pedigree data from the Swedish Kennel Club (founded in 1889) form the basis for the statistical analyses.
> 
> Pedigree analysis is primarily conducted using the software Population Management 2000 (http://www.vortex9.org/pm2000.html). This software has been developed for conservation genetic management of wild threatened animal species bred in captivity. Our work aims at applying and further developing conservation genetic management tools and ideas traditionally used for such species to the arena of conservation of domestic animal breeds.
> 
> We carried out preliminary analyses of a few sample breeds. The “unhealthy” breeds included bullmastiff, Dogo Argentino, Bulldog, mastiff, Neapolitan mastiff, Irish wolfhound and, Shar Pei, and the “healthy” breeds included Finnish Lapphund, Norrbottenspitz, Norwegian buhund, Norwegian elkhound black, Småland hound and, Coton de Tuléar. *The preliminary results do not indicate a difference between healthy and unhealthy breeds with respect to average degree of inbreeding among living animals.* However, there are indications that the rate of loss of genetic variation is slightly higher among unhealthy breeds. *[[probably because many health disorders are the result of deleterious alleles homologously paired in their recessive form, and NO deleterious alleles in the population would naturally mean less variation!!!]]*





> *Beyond inbreeding depression? a case study of the Irish Wolfhound *
> Silvan R. Urfer, a,
> 
> a University of Washington, Medicine Pathology, Seattle, WA, USA
> 
> 
> Available online 18 January 2011.
> 
> 
> Key words: dogs; Irish Wolfhound; population genetics; inbreeding depression; pedigree analysis
> 
> Article Outline
> References
> Inbreeding depression is a widespread and well-documented concern in dog breeding and has been described as a potential animal welfare problem. Consequently, there is currently a considerable movement towards the reduction of inbreeding levels, with the goal of reducing or eliminating inbreeding depression. *However, the literature shows that there are mechanisms through which inbreeding depression can be overcome in a population despite continuously high inbreeding coefficients, most notably through purging of the genetic load in relation to genetic bottlenecks, combined with selection for fitness.*
> 
> Using a pedigree database containing over *50,000 individual Irish Wolfhounds *dating back to 1862, it could be shown that *the breed has gone through at least four genetic bottlenecks since that period*, with the result that over *50% of genetic variability in the present population can be explained by just 3 individual ancestors and over 95% by 10 ancestors* (Urfer, 2009 S.R. Urfer, Inbreeding and fertility in Irish Wolfhounds in Sweden: 1976 to 2007, Acta Vet. Scand 51 (2009), p. 21 10.1186/1751-0147-51-21. View Record in Scopus | Cited By in Scopus (1)Urfer, 2009). However, the exponential increase in population size that took place since about 1965 tends to mask this intense inbreeding when inbreeding is calculated over just a few generations.
> 
> When combining the pedigree data with data on individual life span and litter size, no correlation between inbreeding coefficients over 5, 10, 20 and 30 generations as well as calculated back to the beginning of modern breeding and either life expectancy or litter size in Irish Wolfhounds could be found (Urfer, 2007). We therefore suggest that the breed may have been *subject to purging phenomena during its past genetic bottlenecks*.
> 
> Our results do not invalidate the well-documented advantages of reducing inbreeding in many breeds; however, they suggest that some breeds may have been subject to purging phenomena and that therefore, caution may be advised in extrapolating results on inbreeding depression between breeds. Research in other breeds with similarly high inbreeding levels (such as the Kromfohrländer) may be useful to further test this hypothesis.
> 
> References
> Urfer, 2007 S.R. Urfer, Lifespan and causes of death in the Irish Wolfhound: medical, genetical and ethical aspects (2nd ed), Südwestdeutscher Verlag für Hochschulschriften (2007) 2009, ISBN 978-3838105857. Available at: www.ths.vetsuisse.unibe.ch/lenya/housing/live/publications/Diss_Urfer_2007.pdf.
> 
> Urfer, 2009 S.R. Urfer, Inbreeding and fertility in Irish Wolfhounds in Sweden: 1976 to 2007, Acta Vet. Scand 51 (2009), p. 21 10.1186/1751-0147-51-21. View Record in Scopus | Cited By in Scopus (1)


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## Bob Scott

Quote from the article Daryl posted
"*However, the literature shows that there are mechanisms through which inbreeding depression can be overcome in a population despite continuously high inbreeding coefficients, most notably through purging of the genetic load in relation to genetic bottlenecks, combined with selection for fitness."

Therin lies the problem. Not enough "breeders" are willing to "purge the genetic load".
The Irish Wolfhound, for instance, seldom lives past 6-7 and has a very high rate of bone cancer in the long bones of the leg.

As you said about conservation genetics, that's very random and non selective. 
*


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## Daryl Ehret

Well, I don't know about _random and nonselective_. Even in nature, there are fitness selection pressures, no matter how random they may appear. Mate selection in nature is not quite random either, as I've seen some people seemingly infer. 

The breeder's agenda as selection pressure on a population should however not be assumed in alignment with nature's order of things. Also too, not all breeders prioritize the same, or uphold the same standards, and aspects such as market demand create a whole new playing field different from that found in nature. 

My point is, you can't just borrow the parts of conservation genetics that fit your personal agenda, and willfuly ignore the rest, when the context you're using it in doesn't appropriately fit the aim of the study in the first place. Even in it's appropriate context, it's not a solid science anyway, epecially when it's most basic tenets are not consistently true.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

When they decided to bring the Rott back, there were like 9 dogs they could find. Luckily, the anti inbreeding clan were not around back then. Otherwise, there would be no Rotts.


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## Guest

Daryl Ehret said:


> Well, I don't know about _random and nonselective_. Even in nature, there are fitness selection pressures, no matter how random they may appear. Mate selection in nature is not quite random either, as I've seen some people seemingly infer.
> 
> The breeder's agenda as selection pressure on a population should however not be assumed in alignment with nature's order of things. Also too, not all breeders prioritize the same, or uphold the same standards, and aspects such as market demand create a whole new playing field different from that found in nature.
> 
> My point is, you can't just borrow the parts of conservation genetics that fit your personal agenda, and willfuly ignore the rest, when the context you're using it in doesn't appropriately fit the aim of the study in the first place. Even in it's appropriate context, it's not a solid science anyway, epecially when it's most basic tenets are not consistently true.


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## herman williams

for every article proving somebody wrong , you can find an article proving the opposite , too many people without hands on knowledge write articles about this , problem is that if you know to learn well and memorize your books , you can be a professor , does that mean you are knowledgable, not for me , I like people who think for themselves

if you want to outcross , you need unrelated blood/genes , to keep unrelated blood/genes available you need to line/inbreed , its that simple


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## Harry Keely

For a second I thought Jeff O was back when i clicked on new post and saw this


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## Connie Sutherland

herman williams said:


> for every article proving somebody wrong , you can find an article proving the opposite , too many people without hands on knowledge write articles about this , problem is that if you know to learn well and memorize your books , you can be a professor , does that mean you are knowledgable, not for me , I like people who think for themselves
> 
> if you want to outcross , you need unrelated blood/genes , to keep unrelated blood/genes available you need to line/inbreed , its that simple



Very old thread. I'd start a new one.


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