# puppy nutrition



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

hi all preparing to pick up GSD pup in only 2 weeks. have looked for threads specifically on pup nutrition. could anyone help speed up serach and refer me to good threads on topic. i am mainly concerned with the questions;

feeding cows milk & eggs to pup.

raw diet sutable for pup

puppy supplements: eg milk powder over fresh whole cows milk if milk at all

sea kelp multivitamin supplement

i want the pup at 7 weeks, vet says no way take it at 8.

pup should grow to large heavy frame GSD

have spoken to vet but only resonse is; science diet pup formulation, science diet pup formulation, science diet pup formulation, science diet pup formulation, science diet pup formulation....

parvo is an issue here and vet says dog must be isolated in a sterile room for 10 days and then limited where it goes until week 12 vaccination. this does not give much chance for early socialisation.

i don't want a thread on bagging vets just some simple advice on what others have had success with.

money is no object but i am a bit on the lazy side, prefer to buy it than prepare it. i spend more time and money on my current dogs diet than my own. ideally would just like to prpeare bigger batches of what my 2yo eats which would be efficient but not sure of pups have different needs not just smaller amounts??

thanks for any puppy nutrition advice


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> hi all preparing to pick up GSD pup in only 2 weeks. have looked for threads specifically on pup nutrition. could anyone help speed up serach and refer me to good threads on topic. i am mainly concerned with the questions;
> 
> feeding cows milk & eggs to pup.
> 
> ...


The biggest advice on puppy nutrition I can offer is make them GROW SLOWLY. They'll reach the genetic size they are supposed to in due time, but it is best to have them reach that frame and weight later rather than sooner. I like Innova Large Breed puppy as it is formulated for pups, but not as calorie dense as regular puppy food. If you are feeding a complete and balanced diet for puppies (labeled for growth or all life stages), you should not need to give a vitamin/mineral supplement. In fact, I would not do it because you could potentially get into toxicity ranges if it is potent enough or simply just wasting your money.

I'm not real big on feeding milk to dogs as there's not really a need (humans are the only creatures that drink milk past the time they're weaned). Yogurt, which has less lactose, is fine. I like Stonyfield Organic yogurt as its readily available and good for a source of probiotics, which if you chose to do raw, I do not believe should be optional as it helps set up a healthy gut flora.

If you're shipping the pup in, you won't be able to ship them before 8 weeks. Concerning parvo, what you feel comfortable with is up to you with input from your vet. If you choose to bring the pup out in public (which I do), just realize it is a real risk, so be careful where you chose to go. Busy dog parks and pet stores are obviously not a great idea (for intestinal worms, ticks, and fleas, not just parvo) before they're either done or mostly done with their vaccine series. But places where dogs don't go too often, like feed stores or hardware stores, may be a better option.


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## chad paquin (Apr 16, 2010)

Try to find goats milk. Have been using it a lil bit and i like it. What ever you do best of luck with the pup.


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## Carlos Machado (Dec 28, 2008)

7 weeks is ideal but like mentioned not allowed to ship till 8 weeks on a plane. This is the prime socialization period so I would socialize with caution as for feeding you have to get it right I can't help with that but whatever you feed limit the calcium to 1.5% of the food many puppy foods have double that and never feed science diet or anything that starts with grains.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Some of the best information out there on raw diet....(IMHO)

http://leerburg.com/feedingarawdiet.htm

http://leerburg.com/feedpups.htm

There is tons more if you go to the Leerburg site and click on "Feeding Dogs"

Please, do as much research on raw as you can and make sure you are ready to feed this way. Done correctly it is great, done incorrectly it can be disastrous, especially for puppies. 

Or are you more interested in kibble? 

I feed a puppy kibble til they are about 5 or 6 months and then I switch to adult kibble. There is truly no reason for a puppy to be on puppy food for over that age. 

Personally, Nutro has worked well for me in the past......not the best, but certainly not the worst out there.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

aaagh, this is a real problem, so much conflicting info; kibble no way, kibble way?? 1.5% this, seriously out of the millions of responsible puppy owners how many actually do this properly?? is there even a proper, how many don't care/dont ask and still have healthy pups.

i reeeaaally want to do the right thing but for every opinion there is a counter opinion. i'm not a vet or nutritionist just a guy trying to do right. 

what about this strategy; no supplements just science diet for puppies, and raw human grade prime beef & chicken hand fed during light training sessions, steamed vegetables and beef stock blended a few times a week. then switch to RAW when 6mo.

i can get access to friesan, jersey, goat and camel milk, but milk doesn't get much of a vote on the forums.

i appreciatte the help and i am researching but this is more opinionated and controversial than discussing religion. 

sorry about the rant just stressed.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

gross/disgusting; just heard a doctor being interviewed on radio, he does fecal implants. the concept of taking pro-biotics is kind of false in his view as we need thousands of active bacteria to kick start us so the concept of taking yoghurt is a marketing fantasy.

i will try and find an article - it seems he implants fecal matter into humans digestive system????????


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## mel boschwitz (Apr 23, 2010)

I've raised a number of pups on raw and have had good results. I can't remember the exact ratios of calcium but its something you want to make especially sure you don't want to skimp on, so use chicken wings/necks/backs or whatever is easily chewed by the pup to make sure you get enough into the little guy. There are a number of places on the web you can go to get the exact ratios if you wish, but I'm a whole lot more cavalier, being a believer in balance over time, and have never had a problem. Lew Olsen is considered an authority on the raw diet if you are interested in doing some more online research. An important thing is to add fish oil-either in the form of the actual oil, or from feeding fish, to a young pup, for proper brain development. Can't remember what the exact nutrient is called, but am sure someone knows it.
Veggies aren't a necessity but some people (including myself) like to feed them to add some bulk into the diet to help "fill" the dog up. They need to be either steamed or thoroughly juiced for a dog to get any nutrients out of them.
Mix and match your meats after the dog has had some time to adjust (I prefer to start with just chicken for at least a week to give the digestive system a chance to adjust to the new diet). 

I don't do much in the way of supplements. Some yogurt and eggs is about it. 

There are some prepackaged raw meals you can buy now. Some can be bought at the grocery stores, and others online. I think Billinghurst, who is one of the main"founders" of raw feeding, has a prepackaged deal. "Boneaffiednutrition" is another one. (I think I have the name right. She's in Texas.) 

As far as taking the pup out, well, I don't go to dog parks anyways, but I take them out after a few days. Yep, its a crapshoot, but a healthy dog is much more capable of fending off diseases whether vaccinated or not, so if your dog seems sickly, then stay in, if it seems robust and healthy, take it out. I train SAR and the pups start training right away with a variety of people, usually in a different place at every training, so for me socialization is built in to SAR training.

I'm lucky because my vet is a believer in raw feeding and limited vaccinations, so I don't have a vet saying the things yours does. I've certainly never heard mine tell me to put a pup in a sterile room, but its your dog and you will do what you feel is best for him.

Good luck, puppies are so much fun!


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> aaagh, this is a real problem, so much conflicting info; kibble no way, kibble way?? 1.5% this, seriously out of the millions of responsible puppy owners how many actually do this properly?? is there even a proper, how many don't care/dont ask and still have healthy pups.
> 
> i reeeaaally want to do the right thing but for every opinion there is a counter opinion. i'm not a vet or nutritionist just a guy trying to do right.
> 
> ...


Peter, 

If you would like a raw food calculator, let me know. I can email you the spreadsheet. (it won't send in a PM here) All you do is enter the dogs weight you want and it calculates the amounts of RMB's, veggies and organ meat for you. (some do veggies, some don't)

I would also stick to a good live cultured yogurt rather than milk. There is just no real need to give milk unless it is once in a while as a treat or something. 

If you are going to feed kibble, I would suggest NOT feeding Science Diet, it is not a good choice. There are several discussions on it if you use the search function.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

You could also use "The Honest Kitchen" AKA THK. THis is supper easy to pre-pair and provides excellent nutrition.

What I did was one meal of THK and a second meal of RMB. This way I didn't need to be so concered about the RMB/organ meat balance etc.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

This comment in the O.P.: _"money is no object but i am a bit on the lazy side, prefer to buy it than prepare it."_ doesn't make me think of raw. 

New puppy + new to raw + prefers pre-made = commercial diet, IMHO. 

I like the THK with RMBs suggestion, and know (or e-know) many people who used it as a bridge to all-raw. 

I keep it in the house. I use it for variety with a raw diet and/or for travel.

They have two recipes suitable for puppies (Embark and Thrive). They're nutritionally complete even alone, but the cost decreases and the variety increases when you add RMBs (or even just meat, as long as you stick with the proportions on the package).


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

I got my new GSD at 7 weeks...she ain't screwed up yet! The longer you wait the more they have bonded to the puppy pack.:smile:


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## Ryan Venables (Sep 15, 2010)

Peter,

Hey there, I know what you mean.

I have 2 Mals the female being 3 and the pup is 13 weeks. Female was brought up on kibble. We went from: Solid Gold-->california natural--> california natural adult--> Go--> Now (grain free)--> Before Grain (grain free)--> Orijen (grain free). That was the kibble story. When she was a pup she would have made a good soft serve ice cream machine! The closer we got to the end of that chain the better her stools became.

I now feed them: The Honest Kitchen- Embark (raw dehydrated) along with fish oil, and NuPro (suppliment) for every meal. That consists of 1/2 of their calories. the other 1/2 is raw meat. Either ground chicken and bones, or beef organs w/ some scraps of muscle... but it's mostly tripe. I also give pumpkin and other veggies, and have started giving garlic a couple times a week.

I've also started given raw meaty cow bones to chew. My wife is a dentist and we would scrape the females teeth when the calculus built up, and she was due soon. But when we gave her her first bone, w/ in 2-3 hrs her teeth looked brand new! 

The more I read the more I love raw. The puppy (13wk male) is now getting all of the above as well and is doing AMAZING on it. When we got him, he had a pretty bad case of dander/dandruff, and it's gone now. Coat is shiny, growing like a weed (but not too fast). I think he was 16lbs at 8 weeks, and I think's he's cresting or so at 13 wks.

Read up on it, but in the end, make the switch when you're ready. I HIGHLY recommend The Honest Kitchen. There are 5 steps. 1. get box out of cubboard. 2. pour THK in bowl. 3. add water. 4. leave for 10 minutes 5. put box away.

Good luck


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

Hey Peter,

I know how you feel. When I got my Beauceron, I was feeding raw. The idea of keeping the ration balanced so as to not cause problems REALLY stressed me out. So I ended up on the dreaded Kibble. It somehow made me feel better seeing all of those percentages on the package. IIRC we used the Dick Van Patten stuff...but it took a while to find the right kibble as well. In hind sight, I should have just had a couple of strong margaritas and not worried so much about it 

I am switching back to raw. I have the extra time now, and have a good source for raw.

It is a bit of work to feed raw. But nothing over the top.

Camel's milk? that sounds really intriguing! A lot of people don't recommend milk. But I know people that have used fresh unprocessed goat's milk successfully.

Bottom line, you need to do what fits for your life and comfort level. 

The Whole Dog Journal has some good nutritional information comparing kibble...but you have to be a member to see the best articles, of course](*,)

Best of luck...


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

hi all thanks for great advice; Carol will PM you my private email.

i am not in US so a lot of brands people reccomend here are not available except for science diet which noone reccomends - sheesh.

not sure if you heard of an Oz brand called Advance they are part of "Waltham" animal nutrition group? who claim to be the oldest/best worldwide animal nutrition gurus for dogs?. 
well thay have a subsidiary called "natura/o?" which is a rice based kibble - i have ordered a small bag of that through my local to try, it seems full of supplements etc, it also contains cornmeal though but presumably in smaller amounts than say a corn based sci. diet. 

have also bought a Dr Symes - new oz brand - pure grains mix that you soak in water for 24 hours and mush into raw meet have bought that in puppy formulation as well it has a long list of grains in it, will rotate that + premium beef & chicken with the natura kibble. will also add the norwegian sea kelp powder with some beef stock.

will not give any vitaman pills for fear of overdoing it, something still wants me to give a few eggs each week - whole or whites only? i see some people add the ground shells?

i know this has been answered somewhere but kibble and meat are OK on separate days aren't they, why is it so bad to feed them together as so many people say but don't say why?

will skip the milk but will research the camels milk further. there is an almost underground culture here that use it for its alleged human health benfits. it is illegal to buy and sell, i would say imposed by the powerful dairy industry who in oz sued soy milk producers for using the word milk on "soy-milk" packets, the case was based around what a milk is, scientists defined it as an emulsion ..something, something ... and technically it was a milk? i think from memory. which leads me to does anyone feed dogs soy "milk", actually lets not go there.

the calcium issue is to complicated for me with the concern of giving too much so i will let the calcium quota come from the sources listed.

will supplement Vit. E and fish oil at 6mo thanks to Connie S's early brainwashing on me 

i am surprised that the hard-core RAW people then go and talk about training treats such as hotdog, that would have to be the most pukeful human food available WTF.

lastly as a rough guide - as numbers will differ with type of food but in general how much mass / dog mass should i be aiming at in a day including training treats for a typical large frame GSD as a function of the dogs mass and age??


as a reward for your help ya gotta check out the fecal implants i told you about; i found some ggod sites just google the words "fecal implants" ya know ya wanna, it could be the kindest gift you could give a sick loved one/spouse, can we start a weird science thread. 

here is a link to get started, the first paragraphs are on the possibility which then gets updated to the just been done, not sure what country/doctor has the "honour" of being the first ok not as galamorous a some scientific brekthroughs given; don't worry no pics just text.

http://acuriouscure.wordpress.com/2011/01/31/fecal-implants-seriously-yup/

once again thanks all for info, i am a whole lot less stressed.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

sorry jus remembered, evryone seems anti-grain, this Dr Symes thing is nothing but grain to add to raw meat - will get the packet and list whats in it in another post. on the subject of grain, my 2yo dog used to stand under my horse when i fed the horse its daily grain mix. the dog would lick up the grain, i presumed it was because the molasses content in the grain mix.

the feed bucket is on the ground a big soft plastic bucket, the dog and horse ended up both eating the grain out of the bucket - together. this ended up in a stand off one day as both were going to fight over the grain, words were echanged as were a show of teeth from both, neither gave ground, i of course ran over and stopped it by locking the dog up and now do so when horse is being fed. suppose should never have let it happen but who'da thunk it.

question my slightly overfed 2yo dog gets best possible human grade premium beef, chicken, comercial treats etc. what does it want from the horse garin enough to pick a fight with a horse. it is not a hunger issue or a possesion/jealousy issue, the dog is not horse aggressive and doesn't even get up when the horse walks inside the house, as it will when door is open, they go for a daily run together evry other day. they are totally neutral in every way to each other.

it is clearly a nutrional need or prference in the dog for pure grain horse mix, so what is/was going on - it is going on no more i want to stipulate.??


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## mel boschwitz (Apr 23, 2010)

Kibble and meat digest at different rates. Meat moves out of the stomach very quickly (as it should) and kibble stays in the stomach much longer. When they are fed at the same time meat will stay in the stomach longer, which is what sets up the dog for potential problems with the bacteria in meat (salmonella). When the meat moves out of the stomach quickly the bacteria are unable to multiply and become a problem.

Dogs were never designed to eat grain. They don't even have the teeth necessary for eating it ( flat teeth like herbivores have vs sharp teeth that carnivores have for tearing off meat chunks). So am unsure why anyone would add grain to a dogs diet. That being said, it doesn't mean it doesn't taste good! I have had dogs and cats try to eat horse grain. Corn tastes good, and the sugar in molasses is addictive. Its not a nutritional need, its purely psychological.

I wouldn't ever feed a dog hot dogs as a treat on a regular basis, but just like twinkies and cupcakes are bad for humans doesn't mean I don't eat them occasionally! My diet is healthy enough that I'm not too worried about it when I treat myself. Same as with my dogs. That being said, if the dog is food driven and you are training for a sport or work, then you need to treat with what is most valued for the dog, and if its hot dogs, then so be it (fortunately none of mine care a whole lot for hot dogs).

I feed a pup about what it should eat as an adult, split into as many meals as necessary, since a pup has a smaller stomach.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Grains are really an unneccesary food for dogs, especially when it is in the first 5 ingredients on the kibble bag. (although I do have a dog that does better with some grain in her diet, so she gets THK with the Quinoa (keen-wah) grain in it) and her kibble.

You can feed a raw meal in the am and kibble in the PM or vice versa. Raw digests usually in about 4 to 6 hrs and kibble can take 10 to 14 hrs (these times are approximate). 

The only supplements I give are salmon oil and vitamin E and a joint supplement for the older dogs. 

I dry all egg shells and then grind them in a coffee grinder and that is my added calcium. 

(don't feed salmon from the pacific northwest) I use a canned salmon which is fine as well as whole frozen mackerel (sometimes canned too).

I don't feed hot dogs regularly.....for training treats I use Natural Balance food rolls, which is pretty much the doggie crack of training treats. LOL


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

mel boschwitz said:


> Kibble and meat digest at different rates. Meat moves out of the stomach very quickly (as it should) and kibble stays in the stomach much longer. When they are fed at the same time meat will stay in the stomach longer, which is what sets up the dog for potential problems with the bacteria in meat (salmonella). When the meat moves out of the stomach quickly the bacteria are unable to multiply and become a problem.
> 
> Dogs were never designed to eat grain. They don't even have the teeth necessary for eating it ( flat teeth like herbivores have vs sharp teeth that carnivores have for tearing off meat chunks). So am unsure why anyone would add grain to a dogs diet. That being said, it doesn't mean it doesn't taste good! I have had dogs and cats try to eat horse grain. Corn tastes good, and the sugar in molasses is addictive. Its not a nutritional need, its purely psychological.


Like Carol, my main working dog does better with grain in his diet. Whether grain free kibble or raw, he will have loose stools if he doesn't have some kind of grains. I do think there is something to be said for having at least a little fiber in the diet as well. The cells in the lining of the GI tract have actually shown to be healthier on a microscopic level when fed with soluble fiber, which are called prebiotics. 

I do want to correct a common misconception though. Dogs are not carnivores. They are carnivorous omnivores. And even true carnivores like cats and snakes will consume grain eaters like rodents whole, including the grains in their stomachs. That being said, I think most dogs do best somewhere on a scale between no and modest amounts of grain (depending on the individual dog). My two Malinois have been doing quite well on Healthwise Chicken Meal and Rice lately (and it's pretty cheap at about $1 a pound for the big bags). The two older dogs get California Natural Herring and Sweet Potato and do well on that, but it's a bit pricier.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

thanks again evryone i will "digest" haha all the info. i think i have a good enough plan put together, glad i asked. 

cheers


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