# PP dog, (rick's post to Jehane) moved..



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Good topic Rick...got it out on its own..




rick smith said:


> ok, to start with a simple analogy :
> to me, a personal protector is simply a "bodyguard", whether it is a dog or human. the person is the resource
> 
> a good one considers their assigned resource a potential target and is constantly vigilant and watches the environment around their target to look for threats. recognizing a threat in advance of the attack is the key to successfully guarding their target and preventing the attack. having the means to react and deter an actual attack once it happens comes from LOTS of mental and physical training and being prepared with the right defensive equipment.......a PPD is rather limited mentally ... only has it's teeth, body and physical presence.
> ...


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Tx for moving it Joby......didn't want to start off in another direction, but i do like what Jehane is doing and do value his inputs


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Good explaination:
In addition I'd like to add dog #3, which is a combination of both Dog #1 and #2


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

just my opinions...

Rick, there is a huge variance as to what a PP dog is, or should be.. Depending on their owners lifestyles, living arrangements, level of responsibility, 
there is an "ideal" for some people, which will vary considerably.. and then there is reality of what the actual dog is like.

Much of what goes on in training, concerning PP dogs may or may not be necessary to the function of the dog, and can actually be counterproductive in many cases, depending on who you ask. 

Many people that train "PP", just like to get out and train a lot, often it is a bunch of bitework training, that is done in the name of PP, just because it is not tied to an actual sport, and is often a piece of mind thing, sometimes people delude themselves as well...

PP is an open ended topic for sure..

There is also an "ideal" for some people, and then there is the reality of what the dog is like, or what he might do in various situations...

Would a dog that is expected to NOT act on his own, ever, make a good PP dog? who can say, would that dog confront someone that breaks into the home, or someone that is already in the home when you come back from somewhere? or would it need to be commanded to do so?

Either way, if someone owns a dog that will bite a person in a serious fashion,it should be handled with a very high degree of responsibility, handled much more carefully than a dog that is a normal non-biting pet, or a dog that might not bite someone outside a training situation or dogsport.

The traits that "I think" are most important for a serious PP dog (to be used as a serious protection dog, and not only as a deterrent) are the ability to show real aggression easily, and a dog that is civil, that will actually bite someone, without much provocation. And this type of dog may or may not be an ideal dog for person X, or family X, to own, to have around all there kids friends, or to have offleash in public...some can be for sure, some not so much.


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## mike finn (Jan 5, 2011)

_Would a dog that is expected to NOT act on his own, ever, make a good PP dog? who can say, would that dog confront someone that breaks into the home, or someone that is already in the home when you come back from somewhere? or would it need to be commanded to do so?_

Joby, you and Rick both have really good points and this is a great converstation. I think for most people, you dont want a dog to make any desisionss on their own to bite any one. If a dog is making a decision to bite chances are the owner woud not be there, and if he is then he should make the decision. That would mean the dog can not be called off. If it is biting the wong person, that could be tragic. Also , if a dog is biting some one when the owner is not aroun, he is just protecting property, and I do not want to lose every thing in court protecting what ever crap I have that a burgeler could take. I think most of thee time a dog is enough of a deterent with out biting. 
This is what works for me and my family, I wont tell any one else how to run their life or train thier dog. I have kids and a lot of people comming and going. If I was an old guy that lived in a bad neighberhood alone it might be different.


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## Dee Harrison (Apr 16, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> just my opinions...
> 
> 
> Much of what goes on in training, concerning PP dogs may or may not be necessary to the function of the dog, and can actually be counterproductive in many cases, depending on who you ask.
> ...


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

mike finn said:


> I think for most people, you dont want a dog to make any desisionss on their own to bite any one. If a dog is making a decision to bite chances are the owner woud not be there, and if he is then he should make the decision.


Unless you are knocked out or otherwise incapacitated. Most of the time, you probably do not want your dog biting somebody without you specifically telling them to do so. Yet, if somebody hits you presumably you want them to react, and to know the difference between a friendly hug & slap on the back and somebody assaulting you (a/o letting them know not to do the former while your dog is there watching them), or to essentially do a protect/object-guard over you should you ever be knocked unconscious which I've actually heard happening. I wasn't there so it's all hearsay however if you are training for real life it's probably a scenario to at least consider.

-Cheers


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## mike finn (Jan 5, 2011)

David Ruby said:


> Unless you are knocked out or otherwise incapacitated. Most of the time, you probably do not want your dog biting somebody without you specifically telling them to do so. Yet, if somebody hits you presumably you want them to react, and to know the difference between a friendly hug & slap on the back and somebody assaulting you (a/o letting them know not to do the former while your dog is there watching them), or to essentially do a protect/object-guard over you should you ever be knocked unconscious which I've actually heard happening. I wasn't there so it's all hearsay however if you are training for real life it's probably a scenario to at least consider.
> 
> -Cheers


Goods points, but as a firefighter and EMT I think a dog object guarding the owners body would pose some problems


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

mike finn said:


> Goods points, but as a firefighter and EMT I think a dog object guarding the owners body would pose some problems


Very true. I have not trained for this, however have had it brought up as things to consider by those who do. I'm not sure there is any real good answer that would cover all possibilities. It seems like it would make for good conversation.

-Cheers


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## Jehane Michael Le Grange (Feb 24, 2009)

Super post Rick. 

To start with, what Joby says is 100% correct as well. PP is a very broad spectrum often used when training a biting exercise that is not linked to a particular sport. In this instance, the dog will NEVER be left to guard an object anywhere (the liability factor obviously) and it was just something more interesting to do than Schutzhund schutzhund and more schutzhund.

As you know, the schutzhund/IPO 1 routine literally consists of hide search, hold and bark, escape, re attack, long bite and side escort, all of which is over in under 10min. It also depends on the dogs overall functionality. The dogs in the video, since they are show dogs, need to do a breed survey so they can not be overly aggressive since immediately after having done a long bite, the judge comes straight up to them and checks the teeth and tattoo in ear. (literally with the helper still on the field) So the dog, in that elevated state of drive, has to be tolerant enough to be fiddle with by a stranger. In addition to the breed survey and SchH1 protection work, the owners also want the dogs able to bite live should the situation require (This is after all South Africa). This is therefore a balancing act.

Coming back to the guard of object exercise. I train it differently to the ringsport object guard. In the video i posted, the dog is not allowed to bite unless I touch the bag or object his handler has told him to guard. So its literally on physical contact. I consider that a command and not a situation where the dog simply chooses himself when to bite. You can see the dog has a fairly good understanding of this since he allows me to stand right over him and even touch him and is therefore not simply judging distance. This aside, the handler would never leave her dog unattended in public. Its just fun and stimulating for the dog to always learn during bitework as opposed to just going through the same old same old every session.

With regards to the PP aspect of training. Sociability is huge. The dog needs to allow people around him and people to touch him (As explained previously) the owner also gets plenty of visitors over and since all these dogs are house dogs and companions, they need to be social enough to be passive once the owner has let the strangers in. So with that being said I like to train an on and off command as a basis of ALL bitework training (sport or live). usually, "watch him" is the on command and "relax" is the off command. So following on from this, it gets imprinted in "sports" training from a young age. If the handler says "chippo relax" the helper needs to be able to come up to the dog and touch him, even touch him with the protection sleeve. The moment the handler says "chippo watch him" the dog needs to switch into drive and start alerting towards the helper. I literally practice this over and over interchanging between the two commands with or without a bite in between, to lay the foundation. 

I then continue training the usual sport and breed survey exercises and then when those are in place more or less begin with the more civil things such as having the dog switch into drive even if the helper has no equipment (start this almost from day 1) so you don't have a dog that is fixated on equipment and progress to a hidden sleeve and normal apprehensions with limited stimulus in off field environments.

When I say a dog is a PP dog, what I would like the dog to be is a dog that:

- when there is a knock at the door the dog goes mad until such time as the handler gets to the door and either continues to encourage the aggression by saying "watch him" and should that person then walk in they will get bitten or should the handler say "relax" and open the door the dog needs to accept anyone who then enters. (believe me this is easy to achieve)

- While out on a walk, the dog needs to accept anybody that walks up to the handler and wants to touch it or speak to its handler especially if the handler re-inforces this with a "relax" command as the person or persons is/are approaching unless the handler tells the dog "watch him". Then the dog needs to show aggression and alert and bite anyone who then gets in range. So the biting is never really at the discretion of the dog. Again the dog needs to be socially stable first. You shouldn't do civil work of any nature for a domestic PP dog, with a dog that is not social or you have a liability. Remember this is not a police dog. Again this is simple to train. You must also remember that a PP dog is a body guard as you mentioned, so it only needs to bite long enough for the handler to get control of the situation and would never do apprehension. I train PSD to be a little less social. 

Finally, should the dog be in the house or property, and the owners are away and someone enters the yard the dog has fully right, imo, to bite them. This is legal in SA provided ALL perimeter entrances clearly have large signs in three official languages warning that entrance is at own risk and that there is a guard dog on the property together with a picture of a dog. Then you are basically covered. Most dogs will bark at anybody entering the property so its easy to get a dog that has no problem biting in a civil fashion to bite someone entering. 

Naturally if the handler is surprised by an obvious violent attack the dog will bite. The video of the dog I showed, although it shows an "attack" on handler with me only touching the handler, I have equipment on and the dog is operating mainly in prey and it is very unrealistic as it is on the field. Everything I described needs to be done away from the field completely in an area the dog has never been to before, with hidden sleeves. 

So I basically proof these scenarios or situations before I call the dog a PP dog and again its not all about biting, the dog has to be social. Remember that usually the barking is enough of a deterrent and the biting, when required, is also limited to a full hard grip on the arms and remain in the fight until told to "aus" thus limiting damage. The biting is also lower intensity as too that of a police dog. Basically giving the handler enough time to get control. 

I consider this the basics but depending on the handlers requirements, I can also train a hijacking scenario where the dog bites if someone tries to open the car door and the dog is told to "watch him" literally out in a street, not on a field, and home invasion scenarios at the persons home.

The dog also needs to operate on helpers or assailants that he has not seen before, in areas he has not been before and perform socially as well then I consider them a good PPD.  Hope that helps. I must add that these dogs in the videos, when on a field and see equipment, are operating in 95% prey drive, the fight only comes out off the field really when no equipment is present. 

My own security patrol dog used to work in almost 100% prey on the field through his schutzhund exercises but out on the street doing searches etc was always in about a 70:30 prey:fight ratio and this elevated the more the bad guy fought. The threshold was low enough on him to go from 70:30 to 10:90 very quickly as the fight got aggressive. and he had a very social side too but I also knew what situations to rather avoid to prevent accidents. 

I also do not train live biting on unsuitable dogs or for handlers who i deem to be irresponsible. I also ensure they sign very comprehensive indemnities and they take full liability.


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

I think the best answer to what a good PPD entails is, it depends. 

However, I disagree on the dog only bites when told to. I envision a home invasion where the bad guy puts a hand over my wife's mouth as he comes in so she can't scream or give a command and my dog is just sitting there waiting for a command. There is a time to wait on the handler and then there's a time to go to work. IMO, if it's obvious what is going on, the dog has a green light in my house. I am also fortunate that I live in TX where I have the castle doctorine. Bad guy probably should be thankful that he's getting an oppurtunity to re-think his decision with a dog on his arm while a gun is being loaded. 

BUT that being said, better have a good call off. My dog's know that no means no and they better stop whatever they are doing. We also do our best to not put them in situations where things could go wrong. One of our friends that comes over, the dogs always have to be put up. No matter how many times we tell him, don't rough house with the kids or the dogs he still tries to. So we just crate them. I also will watch them like a hawk when people are over. Especially folks they don't know.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

My dogs have been taught to be very aggressive when protecting family, house and vehicles. I would have had a very different approach to things if I wasn't originally taking them to Costa Rica.

In regards to the family, if anyone is acting aggressive they will bite. That presents a problem if a friend comes up and slaps you on the back when greeting you. That is why OB and "no" commands need to be foolproof.

I had some issues when I first lost my voice but they are resolved now and I'm back in firm control.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Dee Harrison said:


> Joby Becker said:
> 
> 
> > just my opinions...
> ...


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Protective/guard instinct, social reliability plus obedience call off has always taken care of this for us. The dogs seem to know most benign social interactions and don't react to them. Handler also needs to be on alert to how dogs view certain behaviors and anticipate and put dog in obedience mode.

T


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> *Protective/guard instinct, social reliability plus obedience call off has always taken care of this for us.* The dogs seem to know most benign social interactions and don't react to them. Handler also needs to be on alert to how dogs view certain behaviors and anticipate and put dog in obedience mode.
> 
> T


Taken care of what for you?

I agree 100%, one of the most important things is instinct, but that is a highly variable term...most all dogs will be "protective" in some way...

How do you test?


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> Taken care of what for you?
> 
> I agree 100%, one of the most important things is instinct, but that is a highly variable term...most all dogs will be "protective" in some way...
> 
> How do you test?


I really haven't other than environmental and people confidence. That instinct has always been there. I admit though I'm no longer confident that the instincts are a given--particularly with territoriality. 


T


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## Dee Harrison (Apr 16, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> Dee Harrison said:
> 
> 
> > Joby Becker said:
> ...


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## Jehane Michael Le Grange (Feb 24, 2009)

Would like to hear what others think of the roles a PP should be able to play


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

If I was super serious about a PP dog, I would not care about offleash work that much, I would not care how calm his grip was, I would not need the dog to be able to accept petting from strangers.

I would care that the dog would (if needed) forcibly attack a person who is displaying violence, or other typical things...and also forcibly attack someone who is even 100% passive, without any bite equipment on, even friends and other people I know. 

And that is NOT an easy thing to "train" for, that takes a certain type of dog, which may not be ideal in other ways, could be social, but might not be....etc... 

Most violent crimes are committed by people that the victim knows and associates with. And people that use weapons for threats, do not jump around and act like an agitator does, they usually show the weapon, and start making demands.

I would want a dog that would require someone breaking in the house, to have to worry about having a gun, to save his own ass.

The deterrent factor is a big part of it, yes....but...
once you decide to actually use a dog to bite someone, you have crossed a line, if that line is crossed, and that action is actually needed, it should be forceful and effective, to allow you to escape or do whatever you need to do.


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

what makes a ppd dog always depends on its use. I think as a trainer you see what the person thinks he needs and then you convince him of what he really needs. On the issue of if the dog should bite on its own I say yes. Most people want a dog to protect the house as well.

Many people want the dog to do more (mentally) than it is capable of. That is where ppd training goes wrong. If your dog hesitates trying to figure out if this is a biting situation , that could be your last day. Lastly my definition of a ppd dog is the dog that will get me enough time to shoot,call help or run.jmho


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Slightly off topic, but if i trained PPD's for a business, one of my biggest concerns would be how to track the dogs i sold so that i could be sure they were maintained properly. Unless the owner clearly showed me they were capable of maintaining the training level that had been required to "make" it a PPD, i would always be concerned that it would get sloppy, and that would seem to make the chances for accidental bites a lot more probable. Especially if the dog went to a family where only one person understood and could handle the dog properly. Not so much worried about getting my ass sued, just concerned for the dog's well being

Joby, you are one hard core dude  
anyway, how do you train/proof the "aggressively bite anyone even my friends and passive people" part ?? 
... wouldn't it be hard to train targeting ? not as if you could just say, " Thor, get my brother ! that's a knife he's holding, not a bully stick ... and forget his wife with the gun ... she can't shoot straight "
.... i know, bad example 

i'm not one who thinks a PPD should bite whenever IT feels IT needs to. training for that extremely rare hypothetical situation is dangerous and not realistic imo
...........will explain in detail why i feel like that when this rain stops and my roof stops leaking :-((((


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I think the "protection" in PPD is key other wise you have an alert dog, a visual deterant, a junkyard dog, a territorial dog, etc. If it can't actually protect it's not a PPD. JMHO of course! :grin:


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Rick,

That was what I would like for a serious, professional type Protection Dog, if I felt that I seriously needed a PPD. Obviously that is the extreme.

As far as getting a dog that is willing to bite anyone, that is mostly the dog, and less the training. 

Passive biting is not hard to train. Passive biting without equipment is gonna take a certain type of dog obviously.

Dog has to be able to be directed, and "fired up" on all types of people, and use of hidden equipment, and muzzle (without bite equipment) are pretty important steps in training and proofing. 

I am curious to hear more about the dog being trained NOT to bite someone on its own, say if someone is crawling through the window or something or coming into the house in the middle of the night.

Some dogs have a very active form of defense, they attempt to bite as the first response. Others have more passive expressions, such as barking, cornering, and the such.

To try to train a dog that has a strong active response, to NOT bite someone when you are not there to control the dog, is alot more tricky than it might seem, and in many cases is not gonna work, unless the dog is somehow restrained. 

Dogs natural responses are mostly pre-programmed, they can be manipulated to some degree, but in the case of biting or not biting some stranger in the house I think is more the dog than the training. you can crank up some dogs responses, but it is difficult to dial back some dogs repsonses, in situations where there is no handler present, or everyone is asleep and the dog wakes up to find a break-in or "intruder" in the house. The "training" done for that, largely depends on the dog itself, in many cases, there is not training that is done to "train the dog to bite" on its own, it just bites on its own, because that is what that dog does.

everything depends on the dog, the people's needs, the lifestyle they live, the area they live in, the company they keep, the family dynamics etc...and the type of dog they actually have.

I have done a lot of work with PPD training, and of course what I would want if I was serious about it, would not be what I would recommend for most people.

I think *even the notion of a protection dog* is "training for that extremely rare hypothetical situation".

I have a perfect example of an *accident* that happened with a dog I owned that fell into the serious, active, civil dog category, where somebody got messed up pretty badly.

I was gonna take the dog down to the river to do some OB in the early morning before work, I hooked dog up on the leash, went out to the car, opened the back door, dog jumped in, I shut the door. Immediately heard growling/snarling/screaming...opened door back up, dog was biting some poor dude that crawled into the backseat of my car in the middle of the night to keep warmer, and sleep off being drunk.

Guy got pretty messed up, taken away in an ambulance.
I was told by the police that I could not have my dog bite the guy, just because he is in my car, I told the police I did not know that the guy was even in there, and the dog just attacked the guy on its own, which was true. That particular dog woulda bit that guy even without any training, in that situation. And I doubt anyone could have trained the dog NOT to bite in that situation.

If it ever would have went to court, I would have avoided any conversation about any type of training on the dog, and stood by the natural response defense. Luckily it never went to court.

To this day, I always peek into the cars I am gonna put a dog into, if I am not using a crate.

This dog I have now I am fairly sure could be trained to be a pretty serious professional "bodyguard" type dog, and a dog that will "guard and protect" the house and car. fairly easily, but I have not went there with the dog. As it stands right now, she wont even bark at people that walk around the car that she is in, and I am OK with that... she will however, I believe possibly bite someone that enters the home, there have been 3 times since moving here, that random strangers have actually walked into the house. only one time the dog was not crated, and luckily she listened to me, as her first response was going to be to bite, at least that is what it looked like to me...the dog has over time become more aggressive in her maturity, about people coming up onto the porch and going by the door,.....we now keep the door locked, and all entries are monitored and the dog is put into a placement, or held or crated if I am not home. Until the entry of people is executed. I am not 100% confident that the dog will comply with the GF or the teenagers here under ALL circumstances, as they are not really that involved with the training of the dog, except they pet her all the time and feed her treats. Dog listens to all of them pretty much, but I know the dog will bite someone under the right circumstances...The dog has never been aggressive to people that are allowed into the home by us, she is a fairly social dog, but better to be safe than sorry.

owning a dog that will bite someone for real is always a potential liability , and should be handled responsibly and contained responsibly when not being handled, that is a given to me.

the main point is that once the decision is made that in certain situations that a dog is gonna be commanded to, or allowed to bite a person, you have crossed a line, where you open that door to liability pretty wide, and it better be justified under the laws. I think civil suits are a real possibility in any situation, even if justified..I also think that if an "accident" was to occur, or even a justified bite, any demonstration of the dog being "trained" to bite, is gonna potentially hurt you in some cases, here in the US.. like at my place, I live in a mobile home community, the houses are 12 feet apart, no gates no fences...I think it would be much less liability factor if I lived on 20 acres, and had a gate at the end of the driveway...a person that "accidently" walks into an unlocked door at our house, is making a far easier mistake, than opening up a gate, and driving 400 ft, getting out of the car, and walking into the wrong house.

I do not think any house with a dog that is trained to bite people, or will bite people, for real, should have a "revolving" door policy, period, regardless of the type of dog, or training. that is asking for big trouble.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Just got done reading this thread and I went to look at a few things on MSN. If this is true you really have to give this Kid a lot of credit. This is a tough call at any age never mind 14. Doesn’t have anything to do whit PPD other than id rather break into a house with two mean dogs in than this kid. 
(not that I break into house, but you no) 
http://now.msn.com/now/0623-14-year-old-shooting.aspx


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Chris McDonald said:


> Just got done reading this thread and I went to look at a few things on MSN. If this is true you really have to give this Kid a lot of credit. This is a tough call at any age never mind 14. Doesn’t have anything to do whit PPD other than id rather break into a house with two mean dogs in than this kid.
> (not that I break into house, but you no)
> http://now.msn.com/now/0623-14-year-old-shooting.aspx


I read that too...waiting for the fallout...


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> I read that too...waiting for the fallout...



Ditto on that! All the :-k ............wonderful people out there that are going to scream about a gun in the house with young kids.
Obviously the 14 yr old had some training and if someone is old enough to "baby sit" younger bros and sisters they are old enough (with proper training) to know the correct way to handle a gun. JMHO of course! 
It does sound like his aim needs just a teensy bit of tweaking though. :twisted: :wink:


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> Ditto on that! All the :-k ............wonderful people out there that are going to scream about a gun in the house with young kids.
> Obviously the 14 yr old had some training and if someone is old enough to "baby sit" younger bros and sisters they are old enough (with proper training) to know the correct way to handle a gun. JMHO of course!
> It does sound like his aim needs just a teensy bit of tweaking though. :twisted: :wink:


I am not sure how much training some kids would need really. These days. With all the guns on the Youtube, TV, in the movies and on the video games.

Our 13 yr old knows more about guns than I do, seriously....talks about guns all the time, calibers, magazine capacities, ammo types / fps, barrel lengths, all kinds of stuff. ad nauseam... never handled a real gun in his life. His favorite youtube channel is FPSRussia.. 

http://www.youtube.com/user/FPSRussia/videos

has a pellet gun, several airsoft guns, and paintball guns. noboby ever taught him anything, cept me, when he was pointing one of them at me (unloaded was his defense...lol)...

I am thinking of taking him to a buddies house to shoot some pistols, I would bet he is as good of shot as me, not that I am a marksman or anything.


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## Robley Smith (Apr 20, 2012)

EVERYONE, needs at least some basic firearms safety training. Whether or not they own a weapon, or intend to ever handle one.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Robley Smith said:


> EVERYONE, needs at least some basic firearms safety training. Whether or not they own a weapon, or intend to ever handle one.


I can agree with that, not really what I meant though. 

just saying I dont think a kid would necessarily need training to be able to get a gun, load it, and shoot someone these days...


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I don't think you can compare a kid like in the article to the the street kids that have no training. Safety and correctly using a gun isn't on their list of priorities. One of the ranges I go to has some of the thug gansta types that go there. I rarely see correct handling...or good shooting/grouping. Classic spray and pray shooters. Then they get all bent out of shape when they get tossed for not following the "no more then one round per second" rule.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Ditto on that! All the :-k ............wonderful people out there that are going to scream about a gun in the house with young kids.
> Obviously the 14 yr old had some training and if someone is old enough to "baby sit" younger bros and sisters they are old enough (with proper training) to know the correct way to handle a gun. JMHO of course!
> It does sound like his aim needs just a teensy bit of tweaking though. :twisted: :wink:


 
Bob read the responses below the article. You can click “best” or “worst”.
If you click best you will see a huge number of votes for what the kid did and that it was great that he was able to.
If you click “worst” or least number of positive votes you see some posts that do say how bad this was and the kid should have ran out the back door etc.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Chris McDonald said:


> Bob read the responses below the article. You can click “best” or “worst”.
> If you click best you will see a huge number of votes for what the kid did and that it was great that he was able to.
> If you click “worst” or least number of positive votes you see some posts that do say how bad this was and the kid should have ran out the back door etc.



Thanks Chris, I missed that survey.
Aka the article, the bad guy had a gun also. Unless the kid and his siblings were bionic, running out the back door would have been a loosing choice.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I had a discussion years ago with my FIL about teaching gun safety to kids that were ready for it. He was totally against it. I then asked what happens when kids would find a gun in the alley, etc. Not an unheard of happening here.His answere was he would teach the kids to leave it alone. 
10-12 yr old boys leaving it alone ain't gonna happen. 
I said I would much rather the kid knew enough about firearms that the seriousness of it wouldn't go over their heads. Hopefully they would then call and adult. He couldn't answer that.
One of my daughter's was at a get together at a friends house. All adults! The owner of the house brought out an old 1911 that his grandfather had from WWII. It was being passed around and my daughter asked to see it. She popped the mag release and out came a fully loaded magazine. She then took it outside and opened the chamber. Luckily nothing in there......Similar to the owner's head.
The present owner acquired it when they cleaned out his grandad's house after he passed but he knew nothing about it other then it was "really neat."](*,)](*,)](*,)
A few there though it was terrible that my daughter new so much about guns. #-o:roll:


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Thanks Chris, I missed that survey.
> Aka the article, the bad guy had a gun also. Unless the kid and his siblings were bionic, running out the back door would have been a loosing choice.


 
I f typically find the comments more interesting than the articles


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Bob, I think certain parts of the country are way worse than others. NJ is not a gun friendly state and some of the people are crazy brainwashed. I got weird looks from my daughters mothers who went into the basement to see the kids (doing whatever). Two sides to my basement one set up for kids and the other a little exercise area with a little gun safe in the corner. The looks I get are when they see the safe. You know they want to ask a million questions about it. I think I am going to get real looking fake guns and just leave them laying all over the house. Have a dog walk by with one in his mouth. 
But I also have been surprised by who I found to be gun nuts as well. The people I meet who are against guns really don’t know why they are against them, they just been brain washed into thinking you will die if you even get close to one that is taken apart in 5 pieces on a table. 
Im in central/southern NJ its not as bad as some towns in North NJ. 
NJ has a zero tolerance policy on guns in schools. Meaning kids cant draw or talk about them or wear a shirt that says Colt, Benelli or anything. 
I have a friend who is a gun dealer, part time (yes licensed) sells to many of the PD around here. Takes his son with him to the sales and tests with the PDs. The house is full of guns there everywhere. 
When asked to draw a picture of what you did this weekend the 12ish year old kid drew a picture of him and dad at the range with a gun in their hands. That was it, kid was off to principal’s office who then called in the school systems therapist person and it just kept rolling from there. Im pretty sure that is enough to actually be expelled not just suspended, The parents had 3 days of meetings and talks with the school. This is no fancy school its just a plan old public school and this response is considered normal for any school in NJ. To me it just seems like they should be able to find better applications for this effort that they all put in.
So if you took your kids to the battle fields Williamsburg or some historic place and they are asked what they did this summer you better hope they drew the battle field full of flowers! 
Anyway if you never read it get the book freakonomics good chapter about guns and kids. hard to argue with the facts. http://www.freakonomics.com/books/freakonomics/ 

Sorry Joby, ill shut up now


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

no problem...

was looking for more input from Rick, about training the dogs not to bite on their own, when no one is there to command them to, or control them, that was about it though...I think with alot of dogs this would be very difficult to do.


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