# Schutzhund--point dogs



## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

I have heard this term as a negative since I started Sch....Sometimes it is replaced with the term "sport" dog. I have had a hard time seeing why this is negative. Every trial I have entered...I have done with the hopes of earning or not losing (however you view it) the points. I also see all the handlers, including myself that did not recieve high scores...wish they had. In Sch...let's be honest. It's fake, and not real. It's a sport. 
where the object is to obtain the most points....so would it not be good in Sch to have a dog that is good at getting them?
I also see dogs that are extremely impressive, that do not earn points. The handlers, at least all that 
i have spoke to..wish the dog was not such a pain in the ass.these dogs I would may wish to use in breeding with the hopes of getting just a piece of them. not an exact replica....to do what? to get the points!


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

And just what exactly is fake about schH?

(I know I *should* be roflmao, but I'm really not--lol)

SchH is what it is, a sport, a breed survey, not fake at all. You gotta know what you are going after and not debate a moot point about points. Of course you want a dog who truly earns the points if you're playing around in SchH. Right?


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Michele McAtee said:


> And just what exactly is fake about schH?
> 
> (I know I *should* be roflmao, but I'm really not--lol)
> 
> SchH is what it is, a sport, a breed survey, not fake at all. You gotta know what you are going after and not debate a moot point about points. Of course you want a dog who truly earns the points if you're playing around in SchH. Right?


 
Well it's a sport called "protection dog"....But were not really making protection dogs. I think many of the dogs performing, are not capable of this. It has a flexible stick..it's not really biting someone. Just an appartus placed over the arm to give the illusion that the dog is, or even will bite someone if the sleeve is removed. 

And is Sch a breed survey? I mean that was it's original intent...But I think we have evolved away from that. You do have to have enough "dog" to compete be competetive. But I think we can say the dog that wins is not always the dog we would like to breed to. The dog that usually wins, is the dog with the best training on it. Not the best genetically gifted animal. And even if the best genetically gifted animal wins...It's still may not be a dog that would be suitable to dog true work, or even produce puppies that could do real bite work . It often is the dog that would we'd hope would produce good sport dogs. I do not think Sch tests the dogs ability to do true work, it's test the dogs ability to do Sch. Nothing more, nothing less. I do not think the point is moot about points. I said it an earlier thread...we will never truley know if the dogs claimed to be real are such until they are loaded in police cruiser, or a humvee and actually do real work.

It's like saying a soldier is battle ready...when he has never actually been in a real battle. He may have done lots of "mock" training. And that's exactly what Sch...A "mock" battle.


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

ok, apples to apples...


James Downey said:


> And that's exactly what Sch...A "mock" battle.


But on the SchH trial field, is it a mock battle?

Are you just trying to get your head wrapped fully around the sport you are participating in or are you trying to convince yourself that you need to train in PP?


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

So if you had your way how would you test dogs for breeding conformation?


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## Jimmy Dalton (Apr 29, 2009)

The one thing you have to remember is the trail is not the only thing the dog has to complete before he is suppose to breed to another dog that has accomplished the same things. They have to complete conformation shows, endurance run, and trail. These things may not seem like much but it is something.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Edward Egan said:


> So if you had your way how would you test dogs for breeding conformation?



Don't all breeds have some form of BST? I know there is one for Rottweilers. If you're part of USRC you need to have a BST on your dog before you can breed.


*USRC Breed Test Performance Routines*

*Critique and Temperament Test*

Dogs will be weighed, measured and critiqued. Dogs should be well trained in presentation for weighing and measuring.
The tattoo or microchip number will checked and read out loud as part of the critique.
Interaction in a Group-
The handler and dog on leash walk through a group of five to eight people. The handler and dog return to the center of the group where the dog sits. The group, when instructed by the judge, converges on the dog. The dog and handler and remain there until told by the judge to disperse.
Sensitivity to noise- 
The handler and dog heel away from the judge. At a distance of fifteen paces, a 22 short blank starter pistol or its equivalent, will be fired twice with a short interval in between each shot. Should the dog show a reaction to the gunfire, this exercise may be varied and repeated at the judge's discretion. If the dog continues to show a strong reaction to gunfire, the test will stopped and the dog is deemed unbreedable.
 *Grips and Release * 

If the dog does not grip the sleeve or if the dog should come off during a drive or stick hits, the helper must continue to press the dog. If the dog returns to the sleeve, the test continues. If the dog fails to regrip, the judge will stop the test and the dog cannot pass.
The dog must out with or without command from the handler and without being touched by the handler. The handler may give 3 separate commands to the dog to out. Two of these commands will be from a distance, the third may be closer. If the dog does not out on the third attempt, the dog can not pass.
At no time may the handler touch the dog before the dog outs. If the dog is inappropriately touched before the out, the test is over and the dog may not pass.
After an out the dog should guard the helper until the judge instructs the handler to pick up the dog.
 *BST Performance Routine * 

With the dog on leash, the handler reports to the judge. The dog's tattoo or microchip number will be rechecked by the judge before the protection work begins.
On instruction from the judge the dog and handler approach the blind on leash. At a distance of approximately 30 feet away from the blind the handler will remove the dog's leash and continue approaching the blind while holding the dog by the collar.
 At approximately 12 feet from the blind (a line may be marked on the ground) the judge will instruct the helper to come out of the blind and attack the handler. The handler must immediately release the dog and remain at the spot of releasing the dog until told otherwise by the judge.
The helper will come out immediately from the blind when directed by the judge and attack towards the handler. The helper will catch the dog on the sleeve, drive the dog and apply two stick hits with an interval of 2 or 3 steps between hits. The helper will continue to drive the dog briefly, approximately 3 to 5 paces, until directed by the judge to stop.
The dog should immediately go to the helper and grip the sleeve and continue gripping the sleeve while being driven. When the helper stops, the dog outs, with or without command from the handler. The dog must guard the helper intently.
 On instruction from the judge the handler will go to the dog and put the dog on the leash. The handler, with the dog on leash, will heel down the field to a blind designated by the judge.
On instruction from the judge the handler will leave the blind (on leash) and heel to the center of the field. With the dog in the basic position, the handler will remove the leash and hold the dog by the collar. The dog must remain quietly by the handler’s side.
On instruction of the judge, the helper will come from behind a blind that is designated by the judge (approximately 40 meters away from the dog and handler) and walk at a normal pace to the center of the field. The handler may challenge the helper as he leaves the blind. At the center of the field the helper will turn and runs towards the dog and handler in a threatening manner.
The handler will release the dog and remain at the spot of releasing the dog until told otherwise by the judge.
The helper will catch the dog on the sleeve and drive the dog 4 or 5 paces (no stick hits). The dog must grip and remain on the sleeve while being driven. The helper stops and the dog outs, with or without a command from the handler. The dog must guard the helper intently.
When instructed by the judge, the handler will go to the dog, put the dog on leash, heel back to the judge and report that the routine is completed.
 * ABST and LBST Performance Routine* 
With the dog on leash, the handler reports to the judge. The dog's tattoo or microchip number will be rechecked by the judge before the protection work begins.
The dog and handler assume the starting point designated by the judge for the blind search and removes the leash.
 On instruction from the judge the handler sends the dog to search the blind while remaining at the center of the field. The handler must show two blind searches, one to the right and one to the left (or visa versa). Failure to search the empty blind is grounds for dismissal by the judge. If the dog does not find the helper in the blind, the handler may resend him. After being sent unsuccessfully three times to the helper the routine is terminated.
When the dog reaches the helper he must bark without gripping. The dog must hold the helper attentively and closely, with intensity and self-confidence, barking energetically and continuously until he is called out. The handler must remain stationary until instructed to approach by the judge.
On instruction from the judge the handler orders the helper to step out of the blind. The helper moves at a normal pace to the designated location for the escape.
On signal from the judge, the handler moves with this free-heeling dog to the designated spot for the down prior to the escape. The distance between the dog and helper is 5 paces.
On instruction from the judge the handler leaves his dog in the down position and moves directly into the blind, maintaining visual contact with the dog, the judge and the helper.
On instruction from the judge the helper tries to escape. The dog must immediately prevent the escape effectively and without hesitation, by means of a energetic and strong grip on the sleeve.
On instruction from the judge the helper stands still and the dog outs, with or without a command from the handler. The dog must guard the helper intently.
 On instruction from the judge the helper attacks the dog and gives two stick hits. The dog must immediately counter the attack forcefully by gripping the arm.
On instruction from the judge the helper stands still and the dog outs, with or without a command from the handler. The dog must guard the helper intently.
 On instruction from the judge the handler will go to the dog and put the dog on the leash. The handler, with the dog on leash, will heel down the field to a location in the center of the field designated by the judge. With the dog in the basic position, the handler will remove the leash and may the dog by the collar. The dog must remain quietly by the handler’s side.
On instruction from the judge, the helper will come from behind a blind that is designated by the judge (approximately 40 meters away from the dog and handler) and run to the center of the field. At the center of the field the helper will turn and runs towards the dog and handler in a threatening manner. The handler may order the helper to stop and stand still.
On instruction from the judge the handler will release the dog and remain at the spot of releasing the dog until told otherwise by the judge.
The helper will catch the dog on the sleeve and drive the dog 4 or 5 paces (no stick hits). The dog must grip and remain on the sleeve while being driven. The helper stops and the dog outs, with or without a command from the handler.
On instruction from the judge the helper attacks the dog and gives two stick hits. The dog must immediately counter the attack forcefully by gripping the arm.
On instruction from the judge the helper stands still and the dog outs, with or without a command from the handler. The dog must guard the helper intently.
On instruction from the judge, the handler goes directly to the dog and commands the dog to bring him into the basic position. The handler tells the helper to step back, commands the dog to "down" and takes the stick from the helper.
The dog and handler perform a side-transport of the helper to the judge. The dog must walk on the helper's right side so that the dog is positioned between the handler and the helper. The dog must watch the helper attentively during the side-transport, however the dog may not bother, jump on or grip the helper.
The group stops in front of the judge, the handler presents the stick to the judge and reports that the routine is completed.


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## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

Chris Michalek said:


> Don't all breeds have some form of BST? I know there is one for Rottweilers. If you're part of USRC you need to* have a BST on your dog before you can breed.*


 
Not true. Lots of people think it would be a good idea, but it's not a rule in USRC.


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## John Haudenshield (Sep 18, 2006)

James Downey said:


> I have heard this term as a negative since I started Sch....Sometimes it is replaced with the term "sport" dog. I have had a hard time seeing why this is negative. Every trial I have entered...I have done with the hopes of earning or not losing (however you view it) the points. I also see all the handlers, including myself that did not recieve high scores...wish they had. In Sch...let's be honest. It's fake, and not real. It's a sport.
> where the object is to obtain the most points....so would it not be good in Sch to have a dog that is good at getting them?
> I also see dogs that are extremely impressive, that do not earn points. The handlers, at least all that
> i have spoke to..wish the dog was not such a pain in the ass.these dogs I would may wish to use in breeding with the hopes of getting just a piece of them. not an exact replica....to do what? to get the points!


To some it's a negative, but it depends on your perspective & goals. If you want to compete inthe sport and do well, a points dog is a great thing. If your goal is to breed beyond the demands of the sport, then a points dog may not be what you're looking for as a stud or brood bitch. 
Some really strong, powerful dogs happen to be point dogs, most however are not. The is a reknown breeder of GSDs in Holland that said he never breeds to the 1st place dog in a competition, b/c it's his belief that those are usually point dogs and that's not part of his goal in breeding. He's looking for those dogs that are extremely impressive, and therefore don't always score well.

John


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

If one is just out to win at BSP or WUSV or whatever, a dog that is easy to train, i.e. not too strong, with sufficient drive is what is often looked for.

Without any criticism of those handlers who bring winners, year after year, and sell them to Korea, China, etc. and start again anew, for me there would be a lot missing. First of all, due to the Schutzhund / IPO patterned disciplines, having done it once, it's not so hard to figure out how to do it again, with above mentioned dogs.

Gone are the days when strong dogs that were not so easy to handle in the OB, but still got through it admirably, and, however, scored in "C" for their outstanding performances.

I know of a number of breeders and handlers that don't always make the first ten because the dog has it's own idea in the end of how it should be working and and effs up the crucial part of the routine. I do not mean the crazy prey drivers that can sometimes be pushed over the edge to get 2 more points and then lose 10 because of dirty biting!!

I think I would be prouder to lead off a strong dog that really gained his points in C but lost a few in B. (tracking, occasionally can cause problems due to the vegetation, temperature, elements, etc.) AND for me far more important would be to prove to myself that I could train such a dog to compete at this level, despite its not so compliable nature.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

PS

What stinks (for me) is that the Schutzhund / IPO competitions are won on the OB. I have the feeling that the protection work is not at all selective.

They all bite so what the heck! The difference in engagement of the helper, guarding, etc. is often not evaluated as it used to be. The fast, high drive dog that manages to catch the helper is often given too much kudos. More threatening actions could change this, maybe.


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## Mike Di Rago (Jan 9, 2009)

I need to re-read all this!
Mike


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Go ahead :grin:


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## Jimmy Dalton (Apr 29, 2009)

I don't agree with the statement that schutzhund is decided in Phase B. The big trails have 3 different judges so each Phase is as important as the next, it comes down to plan good training and what you want to do. I have worked a lot of top dogs and they could very easily make good police dogs. I have also worked a lot of strong dogs that could have gotten better points if the handler know what to do with a dog in all three phases. Some handlers work on bite work more due to having a crazy dog and they loose there points in other phases due to not using the crazy drives in those areas. thanks


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Sch has always been decided in b. Where have you been ?? LOL The bitework a retard could teach, but the OB is where most dogs lose.


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## Jimmy Dalton (Apr 29, 2009)

The sport is for the total dog, as long as people view one area more important then the other then these people will never be on the podium and just critique others work or there dogs.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Jimmy Dalton said:


> The sport is for the total dog, as long as people view one area more important then the other then these people will never be on the podium and just critique others work or there dogs.


Jimmy I see your in San Antonio along with Jeff. I think it would be great if you guys got together and run some blinds I particularly think it would be good for Jeff might get him thinking different.:twisted:


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## Jimmy Dalton (Apr 29, 2009)

Funny, you say that, I do go to where Jeff trains and he really does a great job. The group mostly does Mondio-ring, but I'm trying to get some folks in the area to do schutzhund, so we will train more in the future. Pretty soon San Antonio will be the starting point for dog training hormony, lol


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Jimmy Dalton said:


> The sport is for the total dog, as long as people view one area more important then the other then these people will never be on the podium and just critique others work or there dogs.


I just dismantled my decent tracking program for better/more points and consistency it never ends. It's frustrating and fun :mrgreen:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: The sport is for the total dog, as long as people view one area more important then the other then these people will never be on the podium and just critique others work or there dogs.

It has always been the OB that won the big trials. Maybe I haven't been on a podium in almost 20 years, but it was the OB that won it, always. Gotta remember that the bitework in Sch is really really a small part of the "C". : )


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

We need to get some blinds anyway, so I do not see why there could not be Sch going on as well. How many people do you have that might be interested ??


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

I can't wait to see how cool schH really is once Jeff decides to cross train.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Not a ****ing chance in hell. Not my dogs, never. However, I have no problems helping out.


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

I've talked with a ring sporter who was cross training for schH. I thought it was cool. Really shows off the team's talent IMO. 
Cmon Jeff, you have talent...oh, wait, no way in F#*[email protected]($% Hell am I going to try to convince you of that, no way.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Or maybe SchutzOehlsen, has a nice ring, no?


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## Jimmy Dalton (Apr 29, 2009)

Jeff, I think there is about 4-8 people that want to start doing it, I have blinds, so I'm going to start bring them out, I may even talk Tim into doing it also, LOL , thanks


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## Tim Bartlett (May 21, 2007)

Uhhhh.....NO!!!


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## Julie Blanding (Mar 12, 2008)

This is something that has always confused me. If someone breeds on points alone, I would agree that is silly. But just because a dog can and does achieve high scores does not mean it is a pushover. How about maybe, just maybe the ppl training the dog actually know what they are doing *GASP*. 

It's also funny how ppl that bitch about this have such strong dogs they could never get on the podium yeah, that's what it is for sure. The dogs are just that good. 

On the contrary.. I guess if the dog barely passes with 70 points and a P in protection that is the dog you should bred to. Yep. 

Again, my point is not about points. It's about if that is ALL you are looking at, should you even be breeding?

I guess it's a good thing I'm not a breeder 
Julie


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Jimmy, thats great! I think that the more people we have helping out and training the better it will be. 

I need to get Buko straightened out in the blind, and get Soda PoP started.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

James stated;

" I have heard this term as a negative since I started Sch....Sometimes it is replaced with the term "sport" dog. I have had a hard time seeing why this is negative. Every trial I have entered...I have done with the hopes of earning or not losing (however you view it) the points. I also see all the handlers, including myself that did not recieve high scores...wish they had. In Sch...let's be honest. It's fake, and not real. It's a sport. 
where the object is to obtain the most points....so would it not be good in Sch to have a dog that is good at getting them?
I also see dogs that are extremely impressive, that do not earn points. The handlers, at least all that 
i have spoke to..wish the dog was not such a pain in the ass.these dogs I would may wish to use in breeding with the hopes of getting just a piece of them. not an exact replica....to do what? to get the points! "



As someone who depends upon getting dogs from the sport field this is very concerning to me . 

I'm not a historian of the GSD but wasn't the purpose of Sch. as a test to try and get dog's that could do real work for breeding . 

This is simply selfish on my part in order to get more PSD candidates that work for real , but I would like to see the mindset not only in Sch. but in all related K9 protection sports being aquiring a K9 that has traits showing it can engage a person for real no matter if it will be tough to train in the sport or not and excepting the challenge of doing well in that sport with that dog . 

I've competed alot with my 2 difficult K9's . I've won alot of trophies and have been frustrated too seeing K9's geared more for the trail then the real work beat me at times . But there's no better feeling then seeing all our hard work payoff in a trail . Having an easier dog geared more for trial would bore me . Give me a challenge .


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

James Downey said:


> I have heard this term as a negative since I started Sch....Sometimes it is replaced with the term "sport" dog. I have had a hard time seeing why this is negative. Every trial I have entered...I have done with the hopes of earning or not losing (however you view it) the points. I also see all the handlers, including myself that did not recieve high scores...wish they had. In Sch...let's be honest. It's fake, and not real. It's a sport.
> where the object is to obtain the most points....so would it not be good in Sch to have a dog that is good at getting them?
> I also see dogs that are extremely impressive, that do not earn points. The handlers, at least all that
> i have spoke to..wish the dog was not such a pain in the ass.these dogs I would may wish to use in breeding with the hopes of getting just a piece of them. not an exact replica....to do what? to get the points!


If you are only looking at it from the sport side of it, I guess so. However if you need a PSD or PPD dog then most likely not. I personally enjoy seeing a dog kick some butt, while it's nice to see a well performed OB routine, it is just that, a routine! I don't really care about big points, I just want to past. While my current dog is most likely neither big points or butt kicker, I'll aim for a butt kicker next time over a points dog. I view SchH as a means to see were your dog is at in training, points are nice, but not everything I look for.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: 
As someone who depends upon getting dogs from the sport field this is very concerning to me . 

I'm not a historian of the GSD but wasn't the purpose of Sch. as a test to try and get dog's that could do real work for breeding . 

This is simply selfish on my part in order to get more PSD candidates that work for real , but I would like to see the mindset not only in Sch. but in all related K9 protection sports being aquiring a K9 that has traits showing it can engage a person for real no matter if it will be tough to train in the sport or not and excepting the challenge of doing well in that sport with that dog . 

I've competed alot with my 2 difficult K9's . I've won alot of trophies and have been frustrated too seeing K9's geared more for the trail then the real work beat me at times . But there's no better feeling then seeing all our hard work payoff in a trail . Having an easier dog geared more for trial would bore me . Give me a challenge .







This needs to be the majority of the people training dogs, or we are ****ed. However, we are ****ed.


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

I've been noticing something in regard to the USA SchH organization. Some judges are judging with the emphasis on the temperment of the dog (as a breed survey). Others are judging with emphasis on training (as a sport). 

The first type of judge is the kind that will say to the helper, if you can run a dog, do it...don't give away the SchH 1 title to a dog that should have been run because then the owner might think it's breedable. And also the kind that will not kill a handler for "minor" secondary obedience problems if the dog shows power during the bitework. The second kind would probably reward the very correct but possibly boring dog.

And for the first kind, we're thankful. 

Laura
P.S. Does anybody else see a difference in the judging between AWDF and USA?


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## Rose DeLuca (Oct 24, 2008)

Interesting thread....... I've heard this discussed lots before too. My type 1 FEMA disaster dog is also a SchH3 "point dog" (CDN nationals 2008 competitor). I think if you are a serious competitor in SchH it is all about the high points !


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

I'm as serious a competitor as I am doing it for real on the streets but and it's all about the points in competition but I will not comprimise handling a difficult dog that can do it for real , to train in order to get points , then getting a dog geared more for getting points in trials having it's ability to do it for real being secondary . For "real" I'm refering to what the protection sports are trying to replicate and that's supposed to be fighting a badguy .


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

For those who do well in trials please don't get defensive . I'm not saying all who do well in trials are crap . For those who put more effort into getting a dog for points then and the trophies , then to also having a dog that can do it for real or real being secondary to the points , feel free to get defensive .

That type of attitude will lead the future of these dogs into dogs that simply are good at playing a game . That wasn't the GSD's and other breeds intended purpose .


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Difficult. I suppose we'd all like to win but I would like to win because my dog has done a good job and not just pleased the majority of judges.

For this I need a dog that can lead me to the end of the track regardless of weather conditions and vegetation, or lack of it.

If his character shows through in obedience and costs us a few points, I'll suffer it willingly. I definitely don't want a robotic "star gazer", even if this is the trend.

If he busts hell out of the helper but obeys my commands, I don't care how he does it.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> I've been noticing something in regard to the USA SchH organization. Some judges are judging with the emphasis on the temperment of the dog (as a breed survey). Others are judging with emphasis on training (as a sport).
> 
> The first type of judge is the kind that will say to the helper, if you can run a dog, do it...don't give away the SchH 1 title to a dog that should have been run because then the owner might think it's breedable. And also the kind that will not kill a handler for "minor" secondary obedience problems if the dog shows power during the bitework. The second kind would probably reward the very correct but possibly boring dog.
> 
> ...


The USA judges have had this "the character of the dog" and how to factor it in discussion at there last judges gathering or what ever its called. Nothing solid on how to implement it but it is sort of up to there discretion on how to do so it is being talked about and supposed to be factored in some how. 
There are still several of the old school old timer judges that arnt to bashful about handing out a Vorhanden or a Nicht Genugend and letting the handlers know how they personally felt about the dogs performance in the critique.
There are some pussy ass judges I would prefer not having in my dogs score book but geographics and timing way not keep them out :?


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

SPORT DOGS VS REAL DOGS
You have probably seen this article before but I just read it on another forum and thought it pertinent enough to paste here:

By Christine Sonberg & Pierre Wahlström 

It is common among German shepherd people to separate the “sport dogs” and “the real dogs”. I have for a long time asked myself where the difference is. Is my dog a sport dog because he has good scores in competitions? Is my dog a real dog because he doesn’t? If my dog has mostly prey drive, does that make him a sport dog? Or is he a real one because he shows aggression?

I decided to ask Pierre Wahlström! Pierre is a World class and respected competitor, competing nine times in the WUSV championships. He is also a professional officer with Captain Ranks, a military dog instructor, instructor for ammunition search dogs, judge for working trials, helper for protection working trails, judge for dog mental tests and a breeder of working line German Shepherds.


Christine: You select dogs both for your private breeding program as well as for the Swedish military breeding program. Is there a difference in the dogs that you select? If yes, what are the differences?

Pierre: The answer is no. We use big parts of the bloodlines and dogs that are available.

Christine: Is there a difference in the selection of your private competition dog and a dog for military purposes? If yes, what are the differences?

Pierre: The answer is no. I want my dogs to function as competition dogs as well as in military service.

Christine: Do you see a difference in the “sport dog” and the “real dog”? If yes, what is the difference?

Pierre: There are good, average and bad dogs. The difference for me is that a dog that only is suitable for sport has good fight drive, good search abilities and has the ability to cooperate, but can lack strength in environments. The dog that is only suitable for service has good fight drive, good search abilities and is strong in environments, but lack the ability to cooperate. Both of these dog types are for me average dogs. We can use these dogs for breeding purposes, but we have to be aware of where and what the weaknesses are, so we don’t get surprised.
The GOOD dog, that we should/have to use in our breeding, has good fight drive, search abilities, cooperative abilities and is environmentally strong. The bad dog can lack in any of the above listed things, but can be trained by good handlers. These dogs we should not take further in breeding. 
(Realize that the best trainers will rarely take on a dog like this, of logical reasons!)

Christine: Why do you think it has become a trend to separate the “sport dog” and “the real dog”?

Pierre: My judgment is that dog people are like horse dealers... good at finding marketing arguments. They classify dogs in different categories and make it easier to label their dogs/breeding program. The people that do this lack knowledge and understanding. My opinion is that if I accuse my competitor’s stud dog of “only being a sport dog”, and at the same time claim that my own is a “real working dog”, I can get more people interested in my dog. I am sick and tired of those who try to label dogs and put them in different categories. It is mostly the males that get labeled. Very rarely we hear these statements about females, even though it is the same breed. Often people think that the dogs that act like dirty pigs on the training field are the ones we should use for breeding. I will use an example from my own dogs, this way I don’t have to “rat” on others. I have had/have five different males that are used a lot as stud dogs. From these five there are mainly two males that have the reputation of being brutal and real, and it is these two dogs that breeders are talking about. I know which one of the five are the best. I have tried to train four of these five males (one was to old to start with).

The dog that later got the reputation of being the most brutal and hard, was the dog that didn’t bother training anymore. The dog had decided after my “Sunday school” training that he didn’t want to be my friend anymore. The other ones kept on working!!! An important ability for a good working dog is the ability to take something negative and put in into something positive, with this I mean trying to do better after a negative experience. If they are not able to do this we have to question their ability to develop in their education, their “guidibility”. I am not saying that these individuals should be excluded in breeding, but again, realize it so you don’t get surprised.

Christine: Do you have any other comments around this subject? 

Pierre: In dog breeding in general, and especially the German shepherd, there has been created an evil circle which is very difficult to get out of. It is difficult for the “normal” breeder to pick good individuals for their breeding program, because the training systems and trainers have become very advanced and very good. A simple way of separating and spotting individuals for breeding is to take a closer look at how they track and also how they perform in an obedience routine. Within the Shutzhund world is more interesting to look at protection work, and when obedience starts the crowd go for a beer and a Coke. When I say take a closer look at tracking and obedience, I mean IN competition, NOT training. The true observation is difficult to do under training, because most dogs function well and are motivated. We see too many dogs that have problems keeping speed and intensity during the whole routine, and handlers use tricks to keep the dog going. Though is it important not to mix the bad trained dogs that show drive and are “out of control” -- no we have to look at the dogs that are working in drive with precision and speed, but still under control. Working dog/schutzhund people develop one training gadget after the other one to be able to educate our dogs. Everything from tables that the dog has to stand on, different collars that the dogs have to wear, hats with ball droppers on the screen, vest with ball pockets, toys that clicks etc. This can for sure not be a good development…?

I will now give a small description of my profession linked to the question asked. The last three years I have through my profession gotten the opportunity to work with a unique breeding program. Together with my colleagues with different backgrounds, we are going to develop German Shepherds for the main purpose in Military and Police service. We have around 30 litters every year. We use females from Nordic and European bloodlines and the females are from normal to good individuals. 

These females we breed to competition/service males from the civil/private market from Sweden and from the rest of Europe. The males are from normal to good individuals, which come from the traditional working lines. Every male is bred to three different females. The puppies are placed out to “normal people”, who keep and take care of the dogs until they are 16 months old. In this period they are not trained or stimulated in fight or prey drive, they are only taken around in different environments living like house dogs. Then they come back (all of them!) to us to be tested. This test is only done by myself. This we do to prevent different judgment or irregularities in the test. 

The test is EXACTLY the same for every individual. Now we can get a very good picture of individuals, how they really are, and we also get a very good picture of how the different lines work -- the strengths, weaknesses, etc. I can say that we have been very surprised (good and bad) by some very known bloodlines. Think about this: sometimes we see real good service dogs in world championships, etc. that place high on the results lists and sometimes we see competition dogs that do a good job in the military or police. This should be a good proof that the statement “sport dog” or real dog” is inaccurate and completely wrong! A good German shepherd is a dog for any breeding program. This dog should be used, not the rest!!


Pierre Wahlström


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

That was a great post and when someone has as much experience as this man who trains for real world and sport, breeds so many litters every year and evaluates so many dogs from these breedings his outlook is surprising and i must say goes against alot of what many people on this board rant about continously but if his credentials are as stated who can deny its merit?


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## Nathen Danforth (Feb 12, 2009)

In reference to the article:

I know I'm a Newb, but isn't what he outlines in the article...well...common sense? I mean it's a pretty logical statement that I would think most people would understand and subscribe to. So obviously they don't.

The only reason I can think that people are not inline with that method of thinking is they don't want to admit they have an inferior dog so they start lowering standards and making excuses??

Again newb here grasping at whisps of smoke...please forgive me.


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## Mike Di Rago (Jan 9, 2009)

I think that was a good article and adds credibility coming from someone who does both, sport and police. Coming from someone who does high level competition and says that even at high level of competition some trainers use the rules to push weaker dogs through.
One comment I think sums it up. If the dog does it well and can do it outside the field, in any environment, facing any ''opponent'' (meaning wearing protective gear or not and being a stranger to the dog) then that dog has it. If the dog is limited in some way to one environment and one set of scenarios, then it is speculation to think he can do it.
Thanks for posting that article
Mike


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I would have to see the swedish dogs before making any comments, HOWEVER, I think that our own Tim Bartlett ran off one of their dogs.


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## Julie Blanding (Mar 12, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I would have to see the swedish dogs before making any comments, HOWEVER, I think that our own Tim Bartlett ran off one of their dogs.


Well, then I would imagine they didn't come away with the highest points ...


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

So it is a swedish military life for him ??


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

I think it was a good article at least the way I took it . But I can see where others can read into it what they want to justify their beliefs .


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I would have to see the swedish dogs before making any comments, HOWEVER, I think that our own Tim Bartlett ran off one of their dogs.


Yes, a malibitch that placed 6th in mondio3, best placing female I think, but it was more than one dog that failed that particular exercize. However, what does that one dog have to do with swedish dogs, mediocre dogs can be found everywhere.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

It was a joke. Nothing more.


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## Tim Bartlett (May 21, 2007)

The dog Jeff was referring to was a very nice female. Probably one of my favorite females that I have seen competing in MR. Like Erik said, there were many very good dogs that ran during that exercise. 

Speaking of that, Erik, do you have an e-mail address for Emma? If so, can you PM it to me?? Thanks.....


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

It´s done.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

And then it ran ?? That was a favorite before you ran it, or after ??


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## Tim Bartlett (May 21, 2007)

Even though the dog ran, it is still a nice bitch. The mask was brutal. That is what I like about MR. If you have a creative decoy, you can eventually find something that will freak out almost any dog at some point. Would I say it is the nicest bitch I have ever seen? No. But probably one of the nicest bitches competing at the world level right now.


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