# Are AKC sporting events watered down?



## Kalee Thao (Jul 30, 2012)

Like when it comes to things like agility, obedience, etc.


----------



## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Why would you think that?A test is a test mostly you make it what it is,and the higher you go the harder it is


----------



## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Kalee Thao said:


> Like when it comes to things like agility, obedience, etc.


Watered down in what way? That an AKC agility trial is not as hard as a agility trial in the UK?


----------



## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

I show AKC and it is not "watered" down if you mean easier or not as competetive.. I just attended an AKC seminar with judges from all over the US. They certainly expect perfection from the dog handler team in the ring juidging on how they scored vidoes of dogs in the showring.


----------



## Annamarie Somich (Jan 7, 2009)

What I see and hear from just getting involved in AKC events last Fall, no they are not watered down.

With any sport, you will have a top quartile that is highly competitive. The number in that percentage is dependent upon the number of people competing in that venue. For example, agility is extremely popular nationwide and the number of movers and shakers in the sport is very high. 

Traditional AKC obedience has dropped in popularity, the total numbers are down, but at nationals it is very competitive. 

Rally ob is very popular. Many local club trials will have 100 entries per weekend. A Rally title is very obtainable for people. This is the first year for AKC to include Rally at the nationals and it is expected to be as competitive as traditional ob. Remember, competitors scores are also separated by time.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I think AKC ob has come up in it's level of competition since I was heavily involved back in the 80s. I see a lot of that as improvements in training. 
I agree about the number's dropping. Many of the competitors are older but I think that can be said for most of the established dog sports here. We'd all like to see more younger trainers.


----------



## Kalee Thao (Jul 30, 2012)

Hmm, interesting. I asked this questions because I heard people on the Border collie forums say that the AKC herding trials were nothing compared to the ones that the working BC clubs ran. Perhaps agility and such are different.


----------



## Annamarie Somich (Jan 7, 2009)

Is this just a theoretical type question, or are you looking at training and trialing?

I can't speak for herding, but I think you need to study the rules for AKC versus _______ and then get out there and watch some trials.


----------



## Kalee Thao (Jul 30, 2012)

No, I won't be getting a dog for a while. I was just wondering, because me and someone else was having this discussion and I just wanted to see what you folks thought.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Kalee Thao said:


> Hmm, interesting. I asked this questions because I heard people on the Border collie forums say that the AKC herding trials were nothing compared to the ones that the working BC clubs ran. Perhaps agility and such are different.



For herding I would agree with that. The problem is that most all the herding competitions are geared towards BC type herding. In AKC if a dog does any gripping at all it can cost you heavily depending on the judge. 
I would say the AHBA would be an exception to this. Much more realistic work.


----------



## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Bob Scott said:


> For herding I would agree with that. The problem is that most all the herding competitions are geared towards BC type herding. In AKC if a dog does any gripping at all it can cost you heavily depending on the judge.
> I would say the AHBA would be an exception to this. Much more realistic work.


I agree with this. It just doesn't allow for upright dogs to work the way they're supposed to work.

Rally is kind of frustrating in that you can repeat commands to your dog but if you get all the signs right you can place, whereas if you're dog has great obedience but you miss a sign you'll end up at the bottom. But the rest of AKC work is pretty tough.


----------



## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

I would say for TD and TDX it is easier due to the fact you can encourage and give multiple commands to track from start to finish.


----------



## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Kalee Thao said:


> Hmm, interesting. I asked this questions because I heard people on the Border collie forums say that the AKC herding trials were nothing compared to the ones that the working BC clubs ran. Perhaps agility and such are different.


there may be a difference of standards. In Germany, a herding dog would need to manage a flock of 300 individuals and complete a certain number and type of elements. In the U.S., it's lower numbers and may have other testing elements. In the U.S. there are field trials that require horseback judging because of the distances involved. In Europe, most of their stuff is walking. You need to actually look at what each testing group is requiring by reading the standards of the test. Then draw a determination if its weak or not. And then keep in mind who are taking the tests and what the expectations are.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> For herding I would agree with that. The problem is that most all the herding competitions are geared towards BC type herding. In AKC if a dog does any gripping at all it can cost you heavily depending on the judge.
> I would say the AHBA would be an exception to this. Much more realistic work.


It depends on what course you are looking at. The AKC B Course was modeled after USBCHA and ISDS. A Course was never supposed to be for the Border Collie. As for watered down, if you take BC that is instinctively wired to get outside the pressure, he is going to have a HARD time working on A. For that type of dog, it is a close contact box with an amount of pressure that the dog doesn't handle well. There are some USBCHA folks that DESPISE AKC and will never see anything good in it. I'm not a fan of AKC herding either because A Course doesn't make any sense from a working farm perspective. AHBA is a better program for evaluating the type of dog I like and is not geared toward the BC. When you run light/fright/feral stock then the deck is stacked in favor of the low pressure, obedience placement dogs that include the BC and other non-BC dogs. Each herding breed had its own historical function/jobs. You wouldn't leave a typical BC with a flock of 600-1000 sheep to contain them in a certain place and guard them from man or beast. Other breeds didn't work feral sheep spread out over the Scottish hillside.


T


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Keith Jenkins said:


> I would say for TD and TDX it is easier due to the fact you can encourage and give multiple commands to track from start to finish.


Yeah, but you must locate all the articles.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Katie Finlay said:


> I agree with this. It just doesn't allow for upright dogs to work the way they're supposed to work.
> 
> Rally is kind of frustrating in that you can repeat commands to your dog but if you get all the signs right you can place, whereas if you're dog has great obedience but you miss a sign you'll end up at the bottom. But the rest of AKC work is pretty tough.


 
Not necessarily. It really depends on the stock. I refuse to take everything out of mine to make them placement robots. I also continue to select for the highly keen, stock crazy dog--usually the last thing you want to run on A Course. Yet, they have been fairly successful. A lot of it has been creative training and since 2007--all marker training. Instead of emphasizing opedience, you have to emphasive calm mental contact with the stock vs. body.

T


----------



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

brad robert said:


> Why would you think that?A test is a test mostly you make it what it is,and the higher you go the harder it is


 I agree it is what YOU the writer make it and nothing more...


----------



## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Yeah, but you must locate all the articles.


Which consists of only the last article on the TD that must be indicated and 2nd, 3rd and 4th articles on a TDX. 

I've done both AKC and IPO...IPO is hands down harder no question about it.


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Keith Jenkins said:


> Which consists of only the last article on the TD that must be indicated and 2nd, 3rd and 4th articles on a TDX.
> 
> I've done both AKC and IPO...IPO is hands down harder no question about it.


+1

Especially for the TD. You get to the article at the end and you pass. Never tried a TDX


----------



## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Keith Jenkins said:


> Which consists of only the last article on the TD that must be indicated and 2nd, 3rd and 4th articles on a TDX.
> 
> I've done both AKC and IPO...IPO is hands down harder no question about it.


I agree for the most part but wonder how some of the ipo dogs will do tracking in the forest which is where our tracking ankc events are held in this area.Its very difficult with a lot of other odours including native wildlife etc


----------



## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

brad robert said:


> I agree for the most part but wonder how some of the ipo dogs will do tracking in the forest which is where our tracking ankc events are held in this area.Its very difficult with a lot of other odours including native wildlife etc


If you train in areas like that it isn't a problem.


----------



## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Katie Finlay said:


> If you train in areas like that it isn't a problem.


Your point being? So when does an ipo dog track in the forest? Never seen an ipo leg in the forest ;-)


----------



## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Two of the legs on my FH was through the woods....[-X


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

So for IPO I you have a 300 pace track with two articles worth 10 points each. It appears from the rules you can qualify without getting either one of them. In IPO II is 400 paces, aged 30 minutes with 2 articles worth 10 points each. Indication is not required to qualify. IPO III 600 paces, aged 1 hour w/ 3 articles but nothing stated for failure to indicate--only just loss of points. i got this from the leerburg site. http://leerburg.com/rulestbl_p4.htm Is this correct. Of course the dog has to be nose deep and there are points of for encouragement but how is this more difficult than AKC?


T


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

brad robert said:


> I agree for the most part but wonder how some of the ipo dogs will do tracking in the forest which is where our tracking ankc events are held in this area.Its very difficult with a lot of other odours including native wildlife etc


 

I walked an 800 yard TDX track, half through the woods and the other through waist high tall grass. Then there is of course the terrain change. IPO tracking here with one club is done on a mowed pristine sod farm field. Doesn't begin to compare.


T


----------



## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

brad robert said:


> Your point being? So when does an ipo dog track in the forest? Never seen an ipo leg in the forest ;-)


Just because we don't trial that way doesn't mean we don't train that way...


----------



## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

> Never seen an ipo leg in the forest ;-)




If a tree falls in the forest and Brad doesn't hear it..... 

Forest and orchard are accepted surfaces for IPO.


----------



## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I walked an 800 yard TDX track, half through the woods and the other through waist high tall grass. Then there is of course the terrain change. IPO tracking here with one club is done on a mowed pristine sod farm field. Doesn't begin to compare.
> 
> 
> T




You really don't know what you're talking about! Just because you saw one trial on sod do you really believe that all trials are on sod? You can't possibly be that stupid.

I been in IPO trials on everything from sand to moss and lichen and from golf course putting greens to 6 foot switch grass fields. Each one of these surfaces presents its own set of challenges. But you wouldn't know this because you've never done it. Why don't you go out and get a hundred point IPO track on sod and then come back and tell us how easy it was or how it compares to other things you have never done?

Am I the only one that is completely fed up people telling others how easy things are that they've never done? The only thing easy about dog sport is sitting behind a damned computer and running your mouth.


----------



## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Christopher Smith said:


> If a tree falls in the forest and Brad doesn't hear it.....
> 
> Forest and orchard are accepted surfaces for IPO.


I deny your reality and replace it with my own ;-) Nah in all honesty they may be acceptable but i dont see many trials with that type of surface and the australian forest/bush is pretty dense and some of the time u would be lucky to get your nose on the ground the only way to get thru is to air scent or follow scent off high follage.

But as Keith said his FH was in some woods and thats pretty cool.

I dont like one method of tracking more then the other but i really enjoy the training behind ipo tracking.


----------



## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Katie Finlay said:


> Just because we don't trial that way doesn't mean we don't train that way...


But Katie most people i know who ipo track wouldnt want there dog tracking thru that bush as it will make there dog lift its head and may start bad habits ??


----------



## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

brad robert said:


> I deny your reality and replace it with my own ;-)




Brad what's wrong with you? You're supposed to make up some fairy tale nonsense or relate everything back to herding? 

Your post made my day.... Thank You


----------



## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

brad robert said:


> But Katie most people i know who ipo track wouldnt want there dog tracking thru that bush as it will make there dog lift its head and may start bad habits ??


In IPO the dog must keep his nose as deep as possible. If the vegetation is so thick that he can't put his nose all the way to the ground then it's perfectly acceptable for him to carry his nose higher. Personally I seek out thick vegetation in training so the dog can learn to push his head through rough cover.


----------



## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Christopher Smith said:


> Brad what's wrong with you? You're supposed to make up some fairy tale nonsense or relate everything back to herding?
> 
> Your post made my day.... Thank You






Christopher Smith said:


> In IPO the dog must keep his nose as deep as possible. If the vegetation is so thick that he can't put his nose all the way to the ground then it's perfectly acceptable for him to carry his nose higher. Personally I seek out thick vegetation n training so the dogs can learn to push his head through rough cover.


Thanks for that explanation Christopher that makes a lot of sense.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Christopher Smith said:


> You really don't know what you're talking about! Just because you saw one trial on sod do you really believe that all trials are on sod? You can't possibly be that stupid.
> 
> I been in IPO trials on everything from sand to moss and lichen and from golf course putting greens to 6 foot switch grass fields. Each one of these surfaces presents its own set of challenges. But you wouldn't know this because you've never done it. Why don't you go out and get a hundred point IPO track on sod and then come back and tell us how easy it was or how it compares to other things you have never done?
> 
> Am I the only one that is completely fed up people telling others how easy things are that they've never done? The only thing easy about dog sport is sitting behind a damned computer and running your mouth.


 
So enlighten me. I asked a question. Assuming the Leerburg rules are correctly stated and lets say we hold the IPO track at Sullivan Airport like all the AKC tracking events. Compare 300--400 paces vs. 400--1000 yards; required article indication to pass at all vs. loss of points; 30 minutes ---1 hour aging vs. 3-5 hours aging. Element for element, which is more difficult on paper? Sure each surface has its challenges. I go from pavement to dirt to woods and everything in between. Sooooo. No one was belittling a precious Sch title. My post was in response to a statement that one is per se more difficult than the other. I asked how? Its been said on this forum for years that one was more difficult than the other along with complaints of regional and national level conditions. It appears they may be more comparable at the FH level but haven't seen the FH rules. I track with two AKC judges and they think that the footstep tracking produces a more reliable dog or at least one that you feel more secure with. My dog wasn't trained footstep and she only gets nose deep on an pretty aged tracke which I guess makes sense. Trial day under trial conditions will always produce challenges regardless of perception of easy. That perception can also change depending on the dog. But for me, this was justa comparison of the required elements and scoring.

T


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

It looks like the latest rules changed the scoring so you can not get a good rating if you don't indicate any of the articles. So now the articles are worth 21 points. 

T


----------



## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

If the dog has a perfect track and misses the articles they get 79 points. That's a satisfactory rating. A dog does not have to just indicate the articles, it has to indicate them all consistently (it can't down at one and then sit at the next), it has to be straight with the article at/between the feet.

I've never noticed a difference in how my dog tracks compared to the age of the track. A lot of points are lost in IPO for inconsistency in speed and lack of a deep, concentrated nose.


----------



## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Katie Finlay said:


> If the dog has a perfect track and misses the articles they get 79 points. That's a satisfactory rating. A dog does not have to just indicate the articles, it has to indicate them all consistently (it can't down at one and then sit at the next), it has to be straight with the article at/between the feet.


That is incorrect. As long as you simply state my dog will indicate they can alternate between stand, down or sit and it is not faulty. Also while everyone strives for the that perfect picture the dog does not have to be perfectly straight or the articles right between or at their feet to be considered correct.


----------



## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> So enlighten me. I asked a question. Assuming the Leerburg rules are correctly stated and lets say we hold the IPO track at Sullivan Airport like all the AKC tracking events. Compare 300--400 paces vs. 400--1000 yards; required article indication to pass at all vs. loss of points; 30 minutes ---1 hour aging vs. 3-5 hours aging. Element for element, which is more difficult on paper?
> 
> T


This is where you and I differ. I don't train on paper. I don't train on WDF. I don't train on the YouTube. I train in this place called reality. I get titles. I go out everyday and bust my ass so I can get the best scores possible. And quite often I run into people working just as hard trying to get an AKC tracking title. It's the hard work and dedication that makes ALL dogsports hard. People that try to make comparisons of dogsports only shows how very little they understand about dogsports. 

I won't be mired down with some long drawn out back and forth with you because, as everyone on this forum knows, all roads lead to herding with you and I don't think you have the knowledge base to have an interesting discussion about tracking. When you actually *TITLE *a dog in tracking and have more experience maybe we can revisit this topic. Good Day.


----------



## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Keith Jenkins said:


> That is incorrect. As long as you simply state my dog will indicate they can alternate between stand, down or sit and it is not faulty. Also while everyone strives for the that perfect picture the dog does not have to be perfectly straight or the articles right between or at their feet to be considered correct.


Interesting. I have seen a dog lose points for having two different indications on a track under an SV judge.


----------



## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Katie Finlay said:


> Interesting. I have seen a dog lose points for having two different indications on a track under an SV judge.


From the FCI rules:
"The indication may be done either lying down, sitting or standing (also alternating is permitted)."

Laura


----------



## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Keith Jenkins said:


> That is incorrect. As long as you simply state my dog will indicate they can alternate between stand, down or sit and it is not faulty. Also while everyone strives for the that perfect picture the dog does not have to be perfectly straight or the articles right between or at their feet to be considered correct.


Actually nevermind. The dog downed on one and retrieved the other. I didn't realize the retrieving wasn't considered an indication. Thanks for the clarification


----------



## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

If I go back to the original post "watered down" I don't have a clue what that means.

The various events have specified outcomes for the "sports". What is there to water down? None of it has direct real world application. 

They are approximations, at some level, of real world work but not quite the same. I don't even think certifications for real work are quite the same because they are standardized tests of basic skillsets - nothing more / nothing less.

I guess it depends on what you are trying to show.


----------



## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I walked an 800 yard TDX track, half through the woods and the other through waist high tall grass. Then there is of course the terrain change. IPO tracking here with one club is done on a mowed pristine sod farm field. Doesn't begin to compare.
> 
> 
> T


That is a couple times now you have mentioned this 800 yard track.

I don't do IPO tracking, but I can see the precision, discipline and training it takes to come up with that competitive end product and would not be caught poo pooing it. You understand that lots of dogs that could pass a TDX would score horribly on an IPO track right? NOT because they are bad dogs, just because it is DIFFERENT. Heck lots of working police dogs would score poorly on an IPO track, does that mean that police tracking is watered down? I don't think so! Just different end goals.



Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I did an 800 yard track through the woods and fields. You do that enough, structure and conditioning is quite handy and the handler had better be in shape also.T


I find it interesting that you think that 800 yards of tracking through woods and fields might be hard on a dog physically even day after day. I feel like any pet dog that is not fat should be able to pull their handler around for 800 yards! If we think that this is a physical accomplishment for a dog, maybe it is dog breeding we are watering down, not sporting events.

And if 800 yards through woods and fields is hard on the handler...they should get a cat.


----------



## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I walked an 800 yard TDX track, half through the woods and the other through waist high tall grass. Then there is of course the terrain change. IPO tracking here with one club is done on a mowed pristine sod farm field. Doesn't begin to compare.
> 
> 
> T


IPO tracking surfaces vary greatly, can be pristine grass which is extremely unlikely in a big trial. We have tracked on dry/dead grass as well as waist high grass, hills, wind, rain, deep mud etc etc. It does not make sense to voice opinions without any experience!


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

SV judges sometimes make up their own rules. They can because they're German


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Christopher Smith said:


> This is where you and I differ. I don't train on paper. I don't train on WDF. I don't train on the YouTube. I train in this place called reality. I get titles. I go out everyday and bust my ass so I can get the best scores possible. And quite often I run into people working just as hard trying to get an AKC tracking title. It's the hard work and dedication that makes ALL dogsports hard. People that try to make comparisons of dogsports only shows how very little they understand about dogsports.
> 
> I won't be mired down with some long drawn out back and forth with you because, as everyone on this forum knows, all roads lead to herding with you and I don't think you have the knowledge base to have an interesting discussion about tracking. When you actually *TITLE *a dog in tracking and have more experience maybe we can revisit this topic. Good Day.


I thought so.


T


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jennifer said;
" You understand that lots of dogs that could pass a TDX would score horribly on an IPO track right? NOT because they are bad dogs, just because it is DIFFERENT. Heck lots of working police dogs would score poorly on an IPO track, does that mean that police tracking is watered down? I don't think so! Just different end goals".

Absolutely!
In the TDX there is no requirement for the IPO deep nose. No requirement for perfect 90 degree corners. All that is required is that the dog get to the end of the track and indicate articles.


----------

