# New pup, opinions?



## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Have a 6 month old mal/Dutch X for a couple weeks now. I like her nerve, friendly, crazy over a tug. Plan is to start her on HRD. 

What I dont like that I'm seeing, she loses interest when the toy is still. She is possessive only when I try to take it, if I don't interact she leaves the toy. I'm working on building this up by teasing and tugging.

Not seeing much hunt, I have tried food, she hunts good for it. So what would you do? She is young, I don't mind starting off on food.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Julie, YOU do own the toy don't you?!!! Take it. 
Any level of fear now may come back to get you later. Also, it sounds like she's VERY prey driven. At six months, you have a baby...I have a GSD puppy which is 4 months old and I'm relearning how to be "one with the moment." :-k


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I'm not convinced possession is an indicator of hunt drive, or that it's required for a dog to be a good hunter. I've had dogs that were very possessive of their toys, they had to learn that if I want to take it I will and no, they can't bite me for it. Yet their hunt drive was ho hum, out of sight out of mind. I have an older female right now that won't quit, if you throw something into the brush, or just tell her it's in there (she doesn't have to see a throw) she will hunt until she finds it. But she doesn't obsessively carry stuff around, or try to guard things from me. She brings things to me to interact with her, drops stuff in my lap for a game of fetch, but once they game is over (I tell her to knock it off LOL) she will wander off and may go lay down and chew on the toy, or may just drop it and go find something else to do. 

As long as the pup is showing the hunt drive you want for the job, I wouldn't be worrying about the possession, unless there is something about your training style that requires possession. For example I didn't realize how much my training method for jumps and send aways relies on the dogs hunt drive until I tried to train them with a dog with low hunt drive.


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Im lost on "level of fear". What do you mean?

Maybe I didn't word it correctly. I am using her wanting to gaurd the toy to my advantage to hopefully bulid possession when the toy is still. When she has it, I grab it and tug, act like I'm going to grab it again, trying to build her want for the toy. 
I don't see fear in her. Lots of prey, but I'm worried the hunt will be lacking, since her drive seems to stop if the toy stops.
I'm not good at explaining lol.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

julie allen said:


> Lots of prey, but I'm worried the hunt will be lacking, since her drive seems to stop if the toy stops.


How is she if you tie her or someone holds her back, you tease her a little, then toss the toy into tall grass, bushes, etc then turn her loose? Does she hunt, how long, what sort of intensity, etc?


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Kadi, thank you. Hunt will be extremely important for hrd. I'm used to dogs that really want to have whatever.

I guess I'm trying to figure if she will have hunt drive period, as I haven't found what she may want to hunt for yet. The food worked, if I can get that going then switched over to hrd scent, maybe it would work.

She was a pet, too hyper for the owner, and a little bratty lol. She is smart and biddable though, learning stuff fast. She will let me take her toys, but that's the only time she seems to want it. I have no issues with her guarding, she already outs on command. (Tugs or toys)


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> How is she if you tie her or someone holds her back, you tease her a little, then toss the toy into tall grass, bushes, etc then turn her loose? Does she hunt, how long, what sort of intensity, etc?


I have only tried twice, for a toy not much hunting, she comes back to me to play. She also doesn't fetch yet, maybe when she gets that, it will increase some.
if I toss food out she hunts like mad.


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

How long have you been in care of the dog?

Sounds like you're dealing with 'issues' left over from the previous handler.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

julie allen said:


> if I toss food out she hunts like mad.


I don't know much about the type of work you do/train for but to what extent is food drive useful? Is there a specific picture you are looking for from this pup? I assume so from your posts and if that's the case, would you care to put up a video example of her vs what you consider to be ideal at that age?


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Ive only had her a few weeks, no training at all prior.

Not sure I can post video. I could possibly just use food. I have to proof her off of food, so I could teach only to accept it from my hand.

Once trained for hrd, ideally, with a command she will be expected to search a couple hundred acres, or large disaster area for hours, so drives are important. I need a way to convince her that "doing this" gets her "that" and figure what those are.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Julie, has anyone that understands what is needed in a HRD dog been able to evaluate this dog? From your description I wouldn't put to much more work into it. 
To many try and train the dog for the work without knowing if the dog is correct for the job. 
It needs to be evaluated by someone that understands.
It's next to impossible to answer your questions without actually seeing the dog. At the VERY least, video!


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## Sarah Atlas (Dec 15, 2008)

Julie,
Have you trained an HRD dog before. email me privately


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

I don't usually make conclusions about the drives of a dog at 6 months of age. Sometimes that's not an accurate picture of what they'll be like when mature (and sometimes it is!).

I've seen people successfully train HRD with food as a reward. I've also seen some not-so-successful results with that.

If you have the time, and don't mind holding on to the dog for a while, why not tinker with the food reward and see what you get?


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

I have two going now that I have trained for hrd, have trained graping and help with the narc dogs for years. 
The only evaluation has been from a narcotic dog trainer. So its a little different. I have plenty of time to try her and figure things out. I'll try to get video if I can figure how to post. Thanks to everyone.


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## Thomas H. Elliott (Aug 6, 2011)

Like Konnie says Julie, give the pup some time. Patience and perserverance. You will both do well.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Maybe I would give her a short while to figure out the game....we had one try out for our team and he had never played ball. Sent the handler back and told him to teach the dog to play fetch then start the hidden throws. Came back a month later much better - dog just did not know the game.

FWIW I would not personally want to mess with a food driven dog for HRD.


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

I may be wrong, but I think she just doesn't understand to look for a toy, as I am seeing hunt for food. She was kept in a kennel and didn't have any toys. The owners GF had a small kid, so they didn't let her out much because she was too wild.
All of mine will grab a toy when we they want to play, but its like she doesn't know they exist until I pick one up.

I'll work her on the tug awhile and try to build that up. She will tug like crazy, only let go if told or if I completely stop playing. She likes chasing the tennis ball, but I don't like that as a reward if she has a chance for rubble work.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I'd be on the fence with this one. Have you researched her bloodlines to see what sort of maturity rates they have? Some lines are slow to go, I've seen pups at 6, 8 and even 10 months not showing much, they showed something but not what I'd like to see, and a few months later they were showing tons of drive. I remember one dog who went from barely biting a tug to 2 months later knocking decoys down and the handler was having some real problems with control. Another a friend washed at 10 months and sold, 4 months later the guy he sold the dog to was telling him if he could get any more like it, they'd buy them LOL So it happens. But if it doesn't happen in the lines the pup is from, I don't know that I'd be holding my breath unless she started to really show some fast improvement in the near future in the intensity of her drives.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re: "Not seeing much hunt, I have tried food, she hunts good for it. So what would you do? She is young, I don't mind starting off on food."

meaning she'll retrieve the food ? (i kinda doubt that unless maybe you're throwing a bone)

Q - what are you training when you throw food ? i don't get this part, since i think most any dog will run out and look for food til they find it ... and then eat it, so i don't see the training or drive building that is involved here

and don't wanna get hung up on defs (not always sure what some people mean by hunt drive), but when i've seen clips of it, the dog was retrieving the item it "hunted" for


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Rick, the only thing I was looking for throwing food out, was to see if she would begin searching (hunt) for anything out of sight. Just a basic to give her the idea to look.
She wont even pick up a toy right in front of her if it isn't moving, like a tennis ball rolling, when it stops she loses interest.

So I don't know that that's a fair way to evaluate her hunt yet. That's why I was tossing kibble. Or maybe she just sucks lol, not sure yet. I just really like the drive I see when the tug "comes to life". She doesn't fetch at all yet.
In the past couple days, she has improved by me teasing her when she has the tug. We tug, I let go, pretend to grab it, she 'wins it' and is starting to bring it back for more tugging.


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Kadi, I have seen both parents, have excellent drives, but have not asked about when they mature. This was the first cross and the bitches first litter, so I can't compare older pups.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

would you get any diff in drive if you "scent" the balls w/ hot dog smell or fish smell ?
she can't eat em; but maybe she'll carry em back your way if she learns you could "trade" her for a new one to hunt/fetch and then reward the retrieve with "food attached" (the HD or fish) to the smelly one you tossed ??....i'm just thinking out loud but maybe not thinking it thru


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Actually rick, that's how I started my dutchie, was on "dead balls" lol. Cadaver scented tennis balls. Maybe I should break out the towels :/


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Nancy, what are the reasons you don't like to start on food?

I know the proofing off of food deal, and the no self reward ideas, but if the reward comes from me, what am I missing here?


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I guess I have bought into the concept of primary reward coming from source even though the dog eventually may figure out it comes from you and it is hard to deliver food that way and it "contaminates" the source. 

We started with scented throws, then toy hidden with source, and are now working on the indication with BSD as the puppy already hunts for and locates odor independantly.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

There are people who do the "reward comes from source" thing with food too, using boxes similar to Randy Hare. The reward doesn't contaminate the target substance any more than a spitty tennis ball would. June Cawood of Maranatha Kennels does this. I saw some of her HRD Labs work recently and was impressed. They had everything I'd look for in an HRD dog. 

It's probably not for every dog. Maybe Sarah Atlas can comment more on this since she's seen more of June's dogs than I have.

That being said, like I said before, I've seen it not work so well too. Not something I would choose to do, but that doesn't mean it can't work.


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

I don't mind the dog knowing the reward comes from me. I even find this easier to proof off toys, since they already see the toy but can't have it until they alert on the correct odor. Doesn't work for every dog though.
I agree food is not my first choice, but I have used it to get young pups interested. Personally, I like the interaction of tug or praise rather than just a toy reward.

Trained today, the pup fetched and really got into tugging and pushing the toy to me for more! Yay! Introduced scent, and everytime she sniffed it we tugged, so maybe I wont even start the food treats.

ETA- I have a hard time believing a dog can find a dry tooth in a rubble pile, but can't smell a slobbery tug I'm holding twenty feet away, just my opinion though.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I think we are stupid if we think the dog does not know where the reward comes from but It does help shape a focused indication if it comes from source. I am sold now seeing how quickly the dogs learn that way and how solid the indications are.

The other thing is most folks I know train that way. I have seen some very good food reward cadaver dogs and know it can be done but most everyone we train with uses balls or tugs...we have one gal trying to do food and everything has to be different for her. I will say the old Cadaver Dog Handbook method seems to me to produce a more handler dependant dog though.

In terms of toys - when we did the boxes this weekend ALL the boxes had balls in them. The dog wanted the toys in the other boxes when he saw them but could only GET the ball from the right box.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I'm not convinced possession is an indicator of hunt drive, .


I completely agree. 

DFrost


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Nancy that's one thing I'm really trying to avoid is a handler dependant dog. I agree with you, food is a PITA. 
She did goods today, I already see a change, so she isn't a wash yet. Thanks for everyone's advice.


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