# Early bite training ....!



## Gary Garner (Jun 30, 2007)

Xena is doing ok... I'm trying to condition her the best I can..we're visiting shopping precincts, build up areas, shiny floors, traffic conditions etc... 

Her recall and sit is coming on nicely...and we're even managing to crap/pee on demand when out.... so I'm pleased at the moment with her... at 14 weeks old..

Here's some pics I took this afternoon...She normally plays on a small puppy tug...but she saw me taking this bigger one to the shed and POW !...


----------



## Bryan Colletti (Feb 16, 2007)

Try looking at some of these puppy videos Konnie has here, particularly Roxy videos. I would go with a rag at first, as it's easier to make it alive and tempting like a prey item, put it on a string and it's even better. This way, she doesn't have to keep fighting through a man to get the prey item.

http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=k9riot

This is so exciting having a little one around.

I will post more videos of puppy stuff that we like to do soon.

Bryan


----------



## Bryan Colletti (Feb 16, 2007)

*More puppy bite pics and videos*

I like to use different places each time we train, the game never changes, the places do. I like slipperly, uneven, loud places. I forgot about these that Konnie took, some are videos and some pics. But the pups are your pups age.

http://s157.photobucket.com/albums/t79/bosspups1/

click on the link above and maybe you will get some ideas for things to do with the rag. I really like making the puppy work for the bite, lots of misses and teasing. Frustration builds desire!

Bryan

BE AT PEACE.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

The pup also needs to learn how to counter.
Example: If the pup grips shallow (with front teeth), hold the tug/rag with both hands. Steady pull, not hard. When the pup rebites deep (back of mouth) reward by giving the tug/rag. 
This will teach the pup to bite deep. 
That's a simple explination. If anyone wants to add or correct it, feel free.


----------



## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> The pup also needs to learn how to counter.
> Example: If the pup grips shallow (with front teeth), hold the tug/rag with both hands. Steady pull, not hard. When the pup rebites deep (back of mouth) reward by giving the tug/rag.
> This will teach the pup to bite deep.
> That's a simple explination. If anyone wants to add or correct it, feel free.


You can see a good example of this in the first few seconds of this video of Daryl (4.5 months old at the time):
http://s157.photobucket.com/albums/t79/bosspups1/?action=view&current=100_1744.flv


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Excellent! Thanks Konnie!


----------



## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Excellent! Thanks Konnie!


I knew there was a reason I took all that puppy video footage!


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Konnie Hein said:


> I knew there was a reason I took all that puppy video footage!


Good point for everyone! Our club videos much of our training and discusses it as a group. It's amazing what you can see when your sitting down and not in the middle of a field trying to listen to the TD, watch your dog, remember wtf your doing. 
"I KNOW I did such and such"! 
"Well, here's the video old timer. You efd it up AGAIN!"


----------



## Bryan Colletti (Feb 16, 2007)

Hello Bob, In my opinion, you have to make an effort as a decoy and handler to have the proper grip become second nature in your work. Just as normal as leashing up your dog. There is a video of Roxy biting a toy on a garbage pile, where she must hold on to a toy in a slippery and possibly dangerous place. Yet, I don't care, the grip has to be right, and she must demonstrate to me, under all the stress that biting hard is important. You are simply not being fair as well, when genetically you may have a dog that wants nothing more than a FULL BITE.

Bryan

Roxy video below.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnnCwmEuRcc


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Bryan Colletti said:


> Hello Bob, In my opinion, you have to make an effort as a decoy and handler to have the proper grip become second nature in your work. Just as normal as leashing up your dog. There is a video of Roxy biting a toy on a garbage pile, where she must hold on to a toy in a slippery and possibly dangerous place. Yet, I don't care, the grip has to be right, and she must demonstrate to me, under all the stress that biting hard is important. You are simply not being fair as well, when genetically you may have a dog that wants nothing more than a FULL BITE.
> 
> Bryan
> 
> ...


Agreed! If the bite is genetic it still takes proper work to keep it. If it has to be built up in a weak dog, that will often show through under stress.
NOTE: Not to say that a deep bite necessarily means a strong dog an visa versa.


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

I was under the impression that counter includes tug/fight as well as regrip. My pup doesn't regrip or chew. Her grip is deep and calm. I work with a prey item on a whip and "give" for tugging, gradually building up confidence that she can win. 

And a question - my pup had oral surgery a couple days ago and I am having a hard time keeping her from tugging and chewing. As in she just stole a fork and is chewing on it. The surgery did not affect her teeth, but her gum above her teeth on one side. How strict should I be about keeping her from tugging and chewing if it does not appear to affect her grip, drive or sutures?


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Anne Vaini said:


> And a question - my pup had oral surgery a couple days ago and I am having a hard time keeping her from tugging and chewing. As in she just stole a fork and is chewing on it. The surgery did not affect her teeth, but her gum above her teeth on one side. How strict should I be about keeping her from tugging and chewing if it does not appear to affect her grip, drive or sutures?


I would treat it just like when she's at the height of teething and would not let her do any tugging at all. How did the vet close the surgical site? An opened wound in the gums would be a pretty big ordeal and may put her off from it. As for chewing, I would think frozen Kongs, ice cubes, and frozen recreational bones would probably be okay and may help reduce swelling, but no tugging until it's 100% healed.


----------



## Bryan Colletti (Feb 16, 2007)

I would always be cautious where pain in the mouth is concerned. Take the time for healing. Any tugging with pain, may leave a unwanted memory in your pups development. I would watch the pup closely, no toys, but bring the pup to training to observe and get frustrated. Frustration is a better tool for her development than a painful bite.

Bryan


----------



## Gary Garner (Jun 30, 2007)

You're absolutely correct with the caution...it's just so difficult to make the balance between biting and non biting..

For example, I introduced the bite bar and puppy tug, not because I wanted her to start bite training early..(as she's lots of drive and potential)..it's that she was biting me and I needed to redirect her interest to something constructive...

As for pain and stuff..it's very relevant... I was drying her today with a towel after we'd been in the pouring rain...she was pulling at the towel all the time..as pups do..when YELP !..she winces and licks her lip.. The result was she'd lost one of her front baby/puppy teeth...

Bloody typical !... I hope it's not too early for crap like that...she's 15 weeks old...

Can't remember when the adult ones will start to come through...

I later let her play gently with the puppy tug...just so there wasn't any avoidance issues..etc.. and she seemed happy enough..


----------



## Justin Eimer (Oct 17, 2006)

Gary Garner said:


> You're absolutely correct with the caution...it's just so difficult to make the balance between biting and non biting..
> 
> For example, I introduced the bite bar and puppy tug, not because I wanted her to start bite training early..(as she's lots of drive and potential)..it's that she was biting me and I needed to redirect her interest to something constructive...
> 
> ...


Gary~
Crap happens, just don't allow for it to happen often and intentionally. When I say intentionally, I don't mean trying to hurt your pup. I mean over doing it with rag or tug work. It sounds to me that your instincts were correct when you gave her a light training session and put her up on a good note, thus avoiding avoidance issues. The adult teeth should start coming in around 5 months. That is not to say that you shouldn't do bit training, just be cautious and careful. ~Justin


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

> I would treat it just like when she's at the height of teething and would not let her do any tugging at all. How did the vet close the surgical site? An opened wound in the gums would be a pretty big ordeal and may put her off from it. As for chewing, I would think frozen Kongs, ice cubes, and frozen recreational bones would probably be okay and may help reduce swelling, but no tugging until it's 100% healed.


It's hopeless. I really did try... I had her out watching fireworks. She sat and tugged her lead. I was clicker imprinting over dinner tim and she bailed and ran out to the porch to get a tug. Then she nabbed a marker to carry around and found a spoon to chew on... and when she was outside on a pupppy walk/explore, she went for the springpole and was hanging from it. OMG - I didn't know whether to laugh or be horrified.

Obviously, chewing tugging etc is not causing any pain and since it's not causing slower recovery, I'm letting her go at her own pace and I'm trying to keep her onto softer items.

Maren - she had 10 sutures in her gum. Basically tacking down the tissue and leaving a place to for any gunk to drain.

There is zero swelling, sutures are out and it really looks great. Healing VERY fast. I really didn't believe the vet when she said that mouths heal quickly. But it makes sense as dogs lick their wounds to encourage healing.


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

And back onto topic...

Does giving the pup success for tugging create issues in later bite training?


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Anne Vaini said:


> And back onto topic...
> 
> Does giving the pup success for tugging create issues in later bite training?


I've not see that happen. Letting the dog win the tug is a confidence builder. We train for automatic outs when the helper locks up. The dogs learn quickly that if they want the game to continue they need to out quickly. 
One young dog (14 months) in particular is extreamly possessive of the tug but will out the sleeve quickly.


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Thanks! good to know. I haven't done any real bite work, but I like to practice the foundations with all my dogs.


----------



## Gary Garner (Jun 30, 2007)

I checked Xena's mouth today, and her adult teeth are coming through at the front...where the baby ones came out....

I'm amazed at how fast they are coming through...

Thankfully, she's putting on weight nice now..too.... She's not a stocky dog by any means...but she's looking a bit more chunky now..

She's on tripe in addition to her FROMM complete food.


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Green tripe is a good addition!


----------



## Gary Garner (Jun 30, 2007)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Green tripe is a good addition!


Yeah..I like to think so too....

It puts on good weight...and I suppose is as pure as can be....

Smells putrid of course...:---)


----------

