# Building on Prey



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Working young puppies is a blast and the prey angle is one that everyone uses...and for good reason. How are you building on the prey aspect and then shifting the animal to defense? I use body contact and side pats, touching the feet, and holding the rag with some eye contact.


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

Alot of times in doing what you describe really doesn't shift the dog into defense, its more of a conflict, maybe a little defensive but only because of confidence issues. I found the best way is to keep building in prey and slowly work out the conflict, end result is a more confident dog who feels that they do not have to go into defense. Defense is not a bad thing but I would much rather build one up through prey while introducing anything that could be called pressure. In doing so you wind up with a more confident dog who really doesn't feel the need for defense because everything that has been thrown at them the dog has stayed in prey and has always overcome it and won. End result- a confident, take on anything, strong dog, who works because they want to verses because they feel they have to. Just my thought though.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Our club pretty much follows what Jay commented on. The eye contact, eye covering, touching, etc is added slowly (as per each dog's needs/abilities) and isn't done as defence. More of just being a part of the game. Defence comes to the dog with maturity. Again, as per each dog's needs and abilities.
We look at it as teaching the dog martial arts instead of tossing it in a street fight.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

That's my boy.

Come on down Bob, we can have some real fun.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jerry Lyda said:


> That's my boy.
> 
> Come on down Bob, we can have some real fun.


 
Definately on my to do list Jerry! :wink:


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Defence comes to the dog with maturity. Again, as per each dog's needs and abilities.
> We look at it as teaching the dog martial arts instead of tossing it in a street fight.


This why I have held off on titling my young dog I want my dog to act like he's in a street fight. He is exploding with angry pray. With the bark and hold I want him to exhibit anger and fight in his barking which requires a little shit be put on him so when he comes around the last 10ft hes making I'm going to kill you sorts of barking and its coming along quite nicely. Now I have to keep the helper safe from him biting him in the face. He dont take kindly to the helper cleaning him nor do I like the helper cleaning my dog. 
Ivan said give him a blast of lemon juce in the face next time he come up we will see
If it ain't one thing it's two damn.


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

Mike Scheiber said:


> He dont take kindly to the helper cleaning him nor do I like the helper cleaning my dog.
> Ivan said give him a blast of lemon juce in the face next time he come up we will see
> If it ain't one thing it's two damn.


Lemon juice? Have you tried water


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Mike Scheiber said:


> This why I have held off on titling my young dog I want my dog to act like he's in a street fight. He is exploding with angry pray. With the bark and hold I want him to exhibit anger and fight in his barking which requires a little shit be put on him so when he comes around the last 10ft hes making I'm going to kill you sorts of barking and its coming along quite nicely. Now I have to keep the helper safe from him biting him in the face. He dont take kindly to the helper cleaning him nor do I like the helper cleaning my dog.
> Ivan said give him a blast of lemon juce in the face next time he come up we will see
> If it ain't one thing it's two damn.


*Mike are you creating a bartender's dog, one with a twist of lemon?! HAHAHA#-o *


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Erik Berg said:


> Lemon juice? Have you tried water


Yes water is a tool we have used to piss them off or put them on there heals depends on the dog. 
The lemon juice is delivered by the helper quickly when the dog comes up in his face a unpleasant consequence for a dangerous behavior. I don't want to use the collar or long line for correcting guarding he is strong and focused I want him to stay that way. Maybe the collar if need be if the juice doesn't work.
I don't want to take my dog out of the mental place I have him in the blind the helper correcting him will only make for a fight he cant win and it will be ugly he is clean except a occasional bump I'll use the collar to touch that up seems to be incidental


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Mike if he is clean and only an occasional bump, why not do what has got him that far?


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Mike Scheiber said:


> This why I have held off on titling my young dog I want my dog to act like he's in a street fight. He is exploding with angry pray. With the bark and hold I want him to exhibit anger and fight in his barking which requires a little shit be put on him so when he comes around the last 10ft hes making I'm going to kill you sorts of barking and its coming along quite nicely. Now I have to keep the helper safe from him biting him in the face. He dont take kindly to the helper cleaning him nor do I like the helper cleaning my dog.
> Ivan said give him a blast of lemon juce in the face next time he come up we will see
> If it ain't one thing it's two damn.


What type of monster do you have, how old, and why do you want ANGER? Clearheaded focus seems to be what is needed here. JMO! Helper corrections can be good and they can come to be additional training issues. Is it a German Shepherd, DDR lines? :-o


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Jerry Lyda said:


> Mike if he is clean and only an occasional bump, why not do what has got him that far?


It's not the bump that has me concerned hes coming into the blind and going into the hold bark its the guarding he is coming up very close into the helpers face.
I really like the frame of mind hes in and his guard and barking are coming along great. I think its just a matter of time before he bites the helper in the face.
I've been training with Greg Doud he got 1/2 his nose bit off last year:-o he went back and cleaned up the dog with the lemon juice.
I dont want to screw up his guarding I like it but I cant let a helper get hurt or bit in the face. He a easy dog to train I have high hopes the juice will work
Hell the bumping will be a easy fix it very minor I dont want it getting worse or bigger though.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> What type of monster do you have, how old, and why do you want ANGER? Clearheaded focus seems to be what is needed here. JMO! Helper corrections can be good and they can come to be additional training issues. Is it a German Shepherd, DDR lines? :-o


West German http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/475579.html 
He will be 3 on mothers day He's very clear and focused that's what I'm not going to mess with or disrupt.
I like to let the dog show what hes got and is made of. Hes driven, angry, flashey obedient and a tracking machine that's what you will see when I show him. Now if I'm careful and don't screw something up I'll take him to the nationals.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

I would hate for someone to get hurt too. You know your dog better than anyone else. If you think the lemon juice will do it then go for it. Do you think citrenella (sp) will work as well?


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Jerry Lyda said:


> I would hate for someone to get hurt too. You know your dog better than anyone else. If you think the lemon juice will do it then go for it. Do you think citrenella (sp) will work as well?


Not sure about that unless you could buy it in a fruit jar of it and dump it on his face.What is it we have a candle on the deck that is supposed to keep away the skeeters doesnt seem to matter to much.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I've not seen Jett work but I've seen two different full brothers from two different litters. 
I completely understand what Mike is talking about. 
High drive and very ....pushy SOBs! :lol: ;-)


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Mike congrats on the handful. You'll need to find decoys with smaller noses to work this dog!!! LOL:razz:


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

Sometimes to fix one thing you take away from another. I hope this doesn't happen, good luck and I hope you can get him where you want him Mike.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Howard if he keeps useing this same decoy he will have one like you stated.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Ahhh, the puppet master.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

jay lyda said:


> Sometimes to fix one thing you take away from another. I hope this doesn't happen, good luck and I hope you can get him where you want him Mike.


The up in the face thing has subsided the last few sessions with out any corrections I have seldom seen problems disappear but I'll wate and see maybe the little yellow lemon bottle has him scared. People myself included get to carried away with the hold and bark and can make a mess in one session that can take a dog entire career trying to patch up. Hell that's how my dogs father ended up here.
Our club has been pretty good with work around the blind and deciding which battles to fight and which to leave.


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