# Confidence issues/Building Confidence



## Ryan Venables (Sep 15, 2010)

Have a bit of a question with respect to my (almost) 3 y/o f/m Mal. I guess as a bit of a caveat, I'm wondering if I'm asking too much from my Malinois.

Here's the issue, although you may not see it as an issue--> and I'd like some feedback on that as well.

Bought Indi originally as a pet. Both parents were essentially show Malinois with the only working experience generations back. I noticed how quickly and well she performed to the obedience training. As such we pursued it. Additionally, since she was purchased originally as a pet, she was socialized as such and became a VERY friendly dog (which is not a bad thing) and when seeing somebody she knows, will often squeal with excitement. Further to this, we have often "babied" her at home, allowing/inviting her to go on couches/bed, and coddling her, however, this was only allowed AFTER she was 100% trustworthy in the house.

Fast forward to today. Last year, we started doing SchH with her, and she took to it quickly. She has no fear or problem engaging the helper/decoy in ANY situation, and you can essentially put as much pressure on her as you would like and she would continue to fight. I am quite proud on how well she does on the SchH field.

She appears to be extremely confident on the SchH field, however, when off, she appears not to be as confident. The reason I'm asking, is not that I'm looking for a fully trained PP dog, but I want to know that she will be there for us if/when the situation needed... if there are issues at this point, I want to know how to fix them. Or am I asking too much of her (i.e. pet/SchH or FR dog/PP dog)? Here are my examples, on the confidence:

- We will often walk Indi around the neighbourhood and she seems to get spooked at times, tucking tail and engaging in "flight" rather than "fight."

- I will come home late at night, and come into the house and she won't even come check out who it is - just stays up in our room. This is HUGE problem for me. Not that I want to get attacked, but I want her to at least check out who just came into the house.

- She will meet new people and be more friendly rather than aloof.

- If I go to discipline her (verbally) she appears to shut down - I think she is quite handler sensitive - but I think I may have caused this. I am also looking to correct this.

I wonder, aloud, if this is a confidence issue, genetic issue, or a training issue? We all want a super dog that can handle anything we can throw at them, and Indi is my first Malinois and I have made mistakes with her... but she is only 3 and I believe there is time to build/correct confidence or training issue.

With that, thanks for staying tuned, what are your thoughts, and how can I continue to build confidence and ensure that I can rely on my dog if somebody were to break into the house or worse come at my wife while on a walk?

I guess on a bit of a side note, we will be bringing a male Malinois puppy into the mix in 7 weeks (from established working lines)... and I want to ensure we don't make the same "mistakes" with him.

Thanks!


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Do some fun trainng. In the locations of where she is having issues do fun training there. Have a good decoy present himself and if she barks have him run away. Do a lot of this type training and she will get more confident. Don't push her too fast take your time and make her feel like a winner everytime. Later you can put more pressure and even let her get a bite. Use her sleeve that she is comfortable with and later add a hidden sleeve. \

Take your time, and don't get into a hurry.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

I will guess many people on here will think you got the wrong dog for what you want. It will be interesting to read some of the answers from the more experienced people. As far as the dog not checking you out when you come home at night, my family can tell by my dogs that I am a half a block away. I will guess they hear my diesel. I would think it’s fair to say that your dog knows it’s you coming in the house. As far as not greeting you he is just very lazy or just don’t like you. You would think the dog should get up and greet you. Or you can just tell yourself that the dog is extremely confident. So confident it doesn’t even worry about who is in the house. Although I’ll admit my greyhound won’t get up if it’s really late. That thing is lazy. If a greyhound was a person it would be one who sucks the system dry. I wouldn’t worry about the dog not barking when you come home, what does it do if someone else knocks on your door late at night?


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Jerry Lyda said:


> Do some fun trainng. In the locations of where she is having issues do fun training there. Have a good decoy present himself and if she barks have him run away. Do a lot of this type training and she will get more confident. Don't push her too fast take your time and make her feel like a winner everytime. Later you can put more pressure and even let her get a bite. Use her sleeve that she is comfortable with and later add a hidden sleeve. \
> 
> Take your time, and don't get into a hurry.


It's worth a try - the way Jerry describes it, you'll get the best out of her, and even if the "best" isn't what you were hoping for, it's good experience and you and the dog will have satisfaction.

As a rather fat friend used to say when I teased him "we can't all be selected for the Ballet Corps, Gill"


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Chris McDonald said:


> Although I’ll admit my greyhound won’t get up if it’s really late. That thing is lazy. If a greyhound was a person it would be one who sucks the system dry.


my mother had a grey hound, retired racer 100 lbs...

The thing was like a turd on the floor, if you walked in the house you would have to step over it to get in the house, cause it would lay on the rug by the front door.. there were many times I actually pushed the dog with the door to get it open far enough to come in. As you stepped over the fat potato, it would be an event if the dog even lifted its head up...usually it just layed there motionless, except for whichever eye was on top, he might open his eye and look at you. And it did not matter who you were...

Only ran one time....went outside did 2 laps around my parents pool, came in the house, and died at my moms feet. I do admit it was a good dog for an elderly couple...but lazy as hell....


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

My Dad bred greyhounds, Joby, obviously of a different sort!!

He would place his coat in a shed, command the Greyhound to lay on it and woe betide anyone who tried to steal it.

My Mum thought they were far too thin and when she tried to feed them extras, he pinched their backsides and they promptly bit her.

This is the man that put fire to newspapers and had his Airedales run over and roll on the fire to put it out.

I guess they had dogs lin those days that we could only dream of!


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Ryan Venables said:


> Have a bit of a question with respect to my (almost) 3 y/o f/m Mal. I guess as a bit of a caveat, I'm wondering if I'm asking too much from my Malinois.
> 
> Here's the issue, although you may not see it as an issue--> and I'd like some feedback on that as well.
> 
> ...


 
Based on what you said, could be everything you think it could be or nothing at all. Not seeing the dog or knowing its background much, I would think its a combination of genetics, of which could be nerve issues, the way the dog was brought up in a home as a pet and not required to do much else, which resulted in little to no foundation work in which you want now. Confidence could play a role as your asking the dog to do things or wanting to do these things at a mature age for the very first time....maybe too comfortable in the lifestyle? Could be handler sensitive to you as well, could be a whole different dog in the home of another??

I don't think you can pinpoint anything, but your on the right track as it could be one or all of those things mentioned. Can you fix it with training? I am sure you could if you have the patience. This will be alot more difficult than trying to change this with a puppy or much younger dog. And by trainining on this you may very well figure out what exactly it is. But based simply on information provided and not seeing the dog, I don't think anyone can say its one or the other? 

Good Luck, you have more patience than me!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I think he was retired for racing for a good reason 
he was fat for a greyhound but not really a fat dog, he was just huge. Super tall oversized and real lazy...LOL

I thought it was pretty amazing that I could slide the dog across the floor with the door, and he would not even lift up his head, he would just stare at me with one eye..

To the OP. You got good advice, the issues may never go away though, be prepared for that. I am kind of off the wall guy, I "might" try roughousing with the dog during play to get its confidence up with me as the handler. 

Getting dog on a lot of obstacles and surfaces while playing can help with some confidence issues.

I would bet the dog knows it it you coming, like was asked, what does dog do if someone else comes over late at night. 

there are lots of ways you can work on alerting to noises, building suspicion and things, but not sure if I would do them with an unconfident dog, I like my dogs pretty quiet these days, you try too much with a dog as you describe and sometimes you get a barking idiot, that barks at the wind blowing, and still don't have a dog that is going to do anything but bark and hide behind you and your family if someone did break in.


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

I heard this said before and I think it sums it up nicely. Success breeds confidence. Help your dog to be successful in whatever they're doing and their confidence will grow.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Patrick Murray said:


> I heard this said before and I think it sums it up nicely. Success breeds confidence. Help your dog to be successful in whatever they're doing and their confidence will grow.


If it's a confidence issue yeah, but if it's weak nerves, not much gonna do about it except hide it, then it will show its face again when you least expect it. 

But if it is, no doubt, the problem I think is going to pinpoint of find out what it is, how to cope with it, train through it and how to maintain/deal with it.


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## Ryan Venables (Sep 15, 2010)

She barks and goes mental at the door and will hit it at about 100 mph... Never really thought of her knowing it was me coming in.

It's definitely not a question of not liking me...


Chris McDonald said:


> I will guess many people on here will think you got the wrong dog for what you want. It will be interesting to read some of the answers from the more experienced people. As far as the dog not checking you out when you come home at night, my family can tell by my dogs that I am a half a block away. I will guess they hear my diesel. I would think it’s fair to say that your dog knows it’s you coming in the house. As far as not greeting you he is just very lazy or just don’t like you. You would think the dog should get up and greet you. Or you can just tell yourself that the dog is extremely confident. So confident it doesn’t even worry about who is in the house. Although I’ll admit my greyhound won’t get up if it’s really late. That thing is lazy. If a greyhound was a person it would be one who sucks the system dry. I wouldn’t worry about the dog not barking when you come home, what does it do if someone else knocks on your door late at night?


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## Ryan Venables (Sep 15, 2010)

Jerry Lyda said:


> Do some fun trainng. In the locations of where she is having issues do fun training there. Have a good decoy present himself and if she barks have him run away. Do a lot of this type training and she will get more confident. Don't push her too fast take your time and make her feel like a winner everytime. Later you can put more pressure and even let her get a bite. Use her sleeve that she is comfortable with and later add a hidden sleeve. \
> 
> Take your time, and don't get into a hurry.


If there is a decoy present there are no issues at all... She will hit hard, listens, and performs well.

Could it be a case of where she knows I'm number 1 and she knows to leave the protection to me? If that's the case I want her to know that it's okay for her to step up an be protective


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

a dog at home and a dog at work are 2 completely different things, where you expect something out of your dog at the trainingfield, you dont really expect the same amount at home.....hence the probems most people have when they say " but he DOES do it at home!" home aint the field tho and vice versa...you never expected anything from her at home, she probably never had any presure on her at home so you cant really expect something now...also you might have built the problems yourself in some way when it comes to what you are missing in her at home...you wanted a nice housedog not to noisy im thinking....a pet to begin with and now you want something more...work with what you have, try building her up a bit, encourage her to show more courage by not stepping in and taking over which we are tending to do most of the time, if she sees something new and tuck her tail and doesnt trust it dont step in and try and force her to accept it, it wont work most of the time, instead go back there again next time but bring a toy or a treat and put it with the object she doesnt like...dont push her to go to it, let her discover on her own and learn that there is no problem there for her....dont speak dont encourage coze i think the problem is she is letting you decide so she doesnt have to 

and dont expect golden mountains from this dog, she is what she is....if its not there from the get go it will never be there in full force....she is a nice dog in work and thats a good thing but its no guarantee that she will come around on the other front like at home.


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## Ryan Venables (Sep 15, 2010)

I'm uploading some videos to YouTube so I can give some ideas on how she is in various situations.


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## Ryan Venables (Sep 15, 2010)

So, while these videos upload, I took her over to the park to run her via frisbee (it's the only thing I can do right now, as we just got about 20cms of snow last night).

Another dog, mixed male about 20 or so lbs heavier than her (a touch taller, but most of it was fat), came hackles up growling sniffing etc. She just kinda stood there - more worried about the frisbee than protecting herself. Now I don't profess to be any kind of behavioural expert, but I intervened as I've seen enough indication to know what was coming next. This leads to another question - why not defend herself?


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Ryan Venables said:


> So, while these videos upload, I took her over to the park to run her via frisbee (it's the only thing I can do right now, as we just got about 20cms of snow last night).
> 
> Another dog, mixed male about 20 or so lbs heavier than her (a touch taller, but most of it was fat), came hackles up growling sniffing etc. She just kinda stood there - more worried about the frisbee than protecting herself.
> 
> ...


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## Laney Rein (Feb 9, 2011)

Be happy with what you have and train the new one different. Why try to keep making excuses and giving examples when people are telling you the same thing over and over again. This dog sounds wonderful. Great with the family, you don't have to worry about her biting anybody unnecessarily and causing a lawsuit, works superior on the training field......what more do you want? Want a terror - go get a junkyard dog. Like everyone else has said...she has out done anything you ever expected of her when you got her. Why keep putting her in situations and take the chance of breaking her or getting her in trouble? Be happy that you have the nice dog you have and quit hoping she'll be a bully.


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## Jerry Cudahy (Feb 18, 2010)

Ryan, when you have a dog who's genetics are a combo of show dogs and a bit of working added in the background.

You end up with neither working or show.

You need repeditive genetics to keep the dogs character in place.

Part of the problem with people in North America Show dogs to attain ribbons. Do not give much thought to breeding character.

Another aspect most of the dogs over here in North America, the peds are faked out so a show person screws up first breeding everytime. They buy into the bs and pass it on to newbies.

In Europe you take your working dog and attain breeding worthness reports.

Best of luck with your new one.


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## Ryan Venables (Sep 15, 2010)

Laney Rein said:


> Be happy with what you have and train the new one different. Why try to keep making excuses and giving examples when people are telling you the same thing over and over again. This dog sounds wonderful. Great with the family, you don't have to worry about her biting anybody unnecessarily and causing a lawsuit, works superior on the training field......what more do you want? Want a terror - go get a junkyard dog. Like everyone else has said...she has out done anything you ever expected of her when you got her. Why keep putting her in situations and take the chance of breaking her or getting her in trouble? Be happy that you have the nice dog you have and quit hoping she'll be a bully.


By no means have I professed to want her to be a bully - perhaps a re-read of my posts is necessary. 

I've been asking questions looking for feedback. What I do want is to figure out whether this dog can achieve a higher level of confidence as I think this would aid in determining whether she can wear all the hats I've given her (house dog, working dog, protection dog--> with this one being ONLY if she was put in the situation).

If she cannot, that is okay, she was purchased as a pet, and by no means do I want to stress her/break her in an attempt to get her to do something she may not be capable of doing. However, although she was purchased as a pet - this dog's drive is SIGNIFICANTLY higher than what you would classify a pet Malinois. There have been people on this board who have worked with her and could probably a test to that.

In the end, I'm looking at how to bring her confidence up. Which I think I've received some feedback on.


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## Ryan Venables (Sep 15, 2010)

Jerry Cudahy said:


> Ryan, when you have a dog who's genetics are a combo of show dogs and a bit of working added in the background.
> 
> You end up with neither working or show.
> 
> ...


You would definitely know better than I - and you know the breeder, so I'm sure you could comment more than I on how "honest" she is with her dogs. What I can say is that although I did buy Indi as a pet, she markets her dogs as "working dogs." The BH I have on her is currently the highest working title any of her dogs have as far as I'm aware (if you don't count obedience).

I did obtain a CH on her, but only to allow for the right to breed her. I may or may not pursue that depending on how she continues to mature and my level of commitment on going through with that.


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## Ryan Venables (Sep 15, 2010)

Here are some example videos of her working from last summer.

I believe at this point, she had been training in SchH for about a 6-8 weeks.

http://www.youtube.com/user/RyanVenables


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

You got a good happy over weight pet dog that plays tug on the sleeve. It was a good starter dog, I kinda went down the same path as you and don’t have a monster dutch. 4 or 5 years latter im still not great but I am better and I want to step up my horse power a bit with my next dog or two(coming soon I hope). No one will ever convince me a larger dog should be allowed on the couch or any of that other stuff you talked about. I think if you got a real dog it would have ate your house and humped your wife and you would have gotten rid of it.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Chris McDonald said:


> You got a good happy over weight pet dog that plays tug on the sleeve. It was a good starter dog, I kinda went down the same path as you and don’t have a monster dutch. 4 or 5 years latter im still not great but I am better and I want to step up my horse power a bit with my next dog or two(coming soon I hope). No one will ever convince me a larger dog should be allowed on the couch or any of that other stuff you talked about. I think if you got a real dog it would have ate your house and humped your wife and you would have gotten rid of it.


Hey Ryan, the guy who posted this is a little 'on the other side' but he's bang on sometimes...today was one of them. Jmo of course.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

You know I cant figure this out. It’s like your talking in code or something. “Other side” of what :-k


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Chris McDonald said:


> You know I cant figure this out. It’s like your talking in code or something. “Other side” of what :-k


 
Who was asking YOu to figure it out?? Just keep on doing what you're doing, that's all you need to know.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

maggie fraser said:


> Who was asking YOu to figure it out?? Just keep on doing what you're doing, that's all you need to know.


Im all over it :grin:


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## Ryan Venables (Sep 15, 2010)

Chris McDonald said:


> You got a good happy over weight pet dog that plays tug on the sleeve. It was a good starter dog, I kinda went down the same path as you and don’t have a monster dutch. 4 or 5 years latter im still not great but I am better and I want to step up my horse power a bit with my next dog or two(coming soon I hope). No one will ever convince me a larger dog should be allowed on the couch or any of that other stuff you talked about. I think if you got a real dog it would have ate your house and humped your wife and you would have gotten rid of it.


Thanks for the input. However, I'd respectfully disagree that she is overweight. But I'm curious to know why you think that. She's 23.5", and just about 60lbs in the videos (I believe). If I was trialling her all the time, I would peel about 5lbs off of her.

I kinda agree about the couch though... but that will be curbed out in the next 7 weeks as we prepare to get the puppy.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

“Respectfully” disagree. Man that’s the nicest thing anyone ever said to me. I hate to be the a-hole to you but she is a fat bitch. No biggy just cut back here and there and skip feeding a few days a week till you see some ribs and regular pet dog people tell you your dog is to skinny. When your typical fat lady in the park with a double wide lab tells you your dog is to skinny you know its just right. Or keep it like it is, its your dog whatever works for you. One day I want to be fat and proud.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Doesn't sound like she had anything to defend herself against to me, if the other dog did not attack her.

I also do not get expecting a dog to be able to protect your wife, without any training for that.

Inside of this thread you said you do not want a full blown protection dog, but that you also want her to fill the roll of protection dog if needed.
If she hits the door barking that is about as much as you should expect without any training.

When you say the dog has no fear or problems engaging the decoy/helper in ANY situation, what does that mean exactly? Does it mean in a SCH setting on the Schutzhund training field only? 

When you say the dog has WAY more drive than a pet malinois what does that mean to you.

If you are talking "prey" drive, it is a rare mali that does not have high prey drive.

What usually distinquishes a pet quality malinois is lack of confidence, nerve issues, and lack of other working qualities.

Some dogs find comfort on the bite, I have seen some pretty crappy high prey drive mals with poor nerves go through a lot to get a bite.

at almost 3, how much more mature do you expect her to get.

I could be way off base here, you know your dog, but it does not sound like the type of dog that should be bred if you are concerned about her confidence at 3.

Just some things to think about.


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## Jerry Cudahy (Feb 18, 2010)

Ryan Venables said:


> You would definitely know better than I - and you know the breeder, so I'm sure you could comment more than I on how "honest" she is with her dogs. What I can say is that although I did buy Indi as a pet, she markets her dogs as "working dogs." The BH I have on her is currently the highest working title any of her dogs have as far as I'm aware (if you don't count obedience).
> 
> I did obtain a CH on her, but only to allow for the right to breed her. I may or may not pursue that depending on how she continues to mature and my level of commitment on going through with that.


Yes I know Ryan, when u posted I could not resist to take a shot at her and by no means to you as we have talked before about this.

best regards


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## Ryan Venables (Sep 15, 2010)

Chris McDonald said:


> “Respectfully” disagree. Man that’s the nicest thing anyone ever said to me. I hate to be the a-hole to you but she is a fat bitch. No biggy just cut back here and there and skip feeding a few days a week till you see some ribs and regular pet dog people tell you your dog is to skinny. When your typical fat lady in the park with a double wide lab tells you your dog is to skinny you know its just right. Or keep it like it is, its your dog whatever works for you. One day I want to be fat and proud.


Ouch... I guess the truth hurts eh? I unfortunately cannot skip meals with her. She has a genetic issue, where if she doesn't eat twice a day she'll puke up bile. Looks like she along with me is in for a bit of weight loss.

Do others think that there the ribs should be visible at all times? Do others agree?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Ryan Venables said:


> Ouch... I guess the truth hurts eh? I unfortunately cannot skip meals with her. She has a genetic issue, where if she doesn't eat twice a day she'll puke up bile. Looks like she along with me is in for a bit of weight loss.
> 
> Do others think that there the ribs should be visible at all times? Do others agree?


I agree with myself that the dog should probably not be bred, and now that I know she has a genetic issue that causes her to puke up bile if she misses a meal, I will remove the probably, and just say she should not be bred period.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

There are people with way more dog smarts than me on here about the weight and rib thing. There are also some people who might know more about the puke thing. That don’t sound right but WTF do I know. My dog has his fat phases, I used to think his prong shrank or something and needed another link. Where/ when you getting your next dog? I want a new one too


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## Ryan Venables (Sep 15, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> Doesn't sound like she had anything to defend herself against to me, if the other dog did not attack her.
> 
> 1. I also do not get expecting a dog to be able to protect your wife, without any training for that.
> 
> ...


I will address these as I have numbered:

1. I agree with this. One of the things I wonder about is whether there is any point in attempting to train this into her. I've heard some say concentrate only one one thing (i.e. PPD, SchH, FR...etc), others say a dog can wear more than one hat.

2. Fair enough... In the end, true w/out any further training, you're right.

3. I mean on the SchH field. Your various situations, gunshots, distractions do not effect her in any way. I've been told she works primarily or only from prey drive and there is very little if not no defense drive when she is biting. An example, is when she goes in for a bite, she hits hard, but she'll chew and get excited (i.e. she makes noise while biting). When she wins the sleeve, she'll simply spin around and spear the decoy with the sleeve in an attempt to get him to put it back on for more. Others, who are working with some defense, from what I understand, will take the sleeve and run away with it.

4. I mean that there is much more drive - willingness to work. Other dogs coming from her kennel, again keep in mind the kennel is a primarily show kennel, do not have the prey drive/will not play with a ball/and when evaluated do not have the right kind of head for SchH. However, I wonder if this is how she was brought up and how I conditioned her compared to how the other dogs were conditioned.

6-8. Now that this has been tossed around, I wonder if what I'm asking is too much from the dog, especially since I only started her in SchH at 2 yrs old. I she has the confidence on the field, and have been told she has what it takes to do quite well. She is my first Mal, and as such, I'm sure there has been countless mistakes I've made with her. I want to improve as a handler, learn from her, and when we get the new guy attempt to not make the same mistakes.

I'm not sure about breeding. I dream big. I'd love to breed her and get only 1 puppy that I could keep. The door is open, but in the end, I probably won't breed her - but it's not a door I want to close yet.

I'm not as big into the sport as some people here. I do it for fun, I enjoy it, and mainly because she enjoys it. I won't be going to any national trials, but I believe and have been told by a number of people that she has a ton of potential so I want to explore that.

I guess it can be hard to narrow down what/if any issues she may have simply by what I post, and some selected SchH videos on YouTube.

Thx for the imput, welcome any more constructive comments anybody may have.


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## Ryan Venables (Sep 15, 2010)

Chris McDonald said:


> There are people with way more dog smarts than me on here about the weight and rib thing. There are also some people who might know more about the puke thing. That don’t sound right but WTF do I know. My dog has his fat phases, I used to think his prong shrank or something and needed another link. Where/ when you getting your next dog? I want a new one too


It's something I tend to forget about... I only remembered it as she did it earlier today.

I only found out about it when she was about 12 weeks old and started puking every morning. The breeder neglected to mention this to us, which now that I know her better is VERY par for the course - she puts herself and her dogs off to be a number of things that they are not. 

I was told how to deal with it (feed her on a regular schedule in morn/night), and it works most of the time, and it's generally not an issue.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Ryan Venables said:


> Thanks for the input. However, I'd respectfully disagree that she is overweight. But I'm curious to know why you think that. She's 23.5", and just about 60lbs in the videos (I believe). If I was trialling her all the time, I would peel about 5lbs off of her.
> 
> I kinda agree about the couch though... but that will be curbed out in the next 7 weeks as we prepare to get the puppy.


I likewise agree she appears overweight for a working Malinois in the video and on the upper end of "normal" for a pet. I'd call her a 6 or 7 out of 9 body condition score. My female is currently out of shape due to the nasty winter and is carrying about 5 extra lbs at 55 lbs and she's the same height as your girl. If you can pinch the skin over her ribs and feel more than just a tiny slip of fat between your fingers, she needs to cut weight as a working dog. If she vomits bile in the morning if she doesn't get a small meal, offer her a spoonful or two of fat free plain high quality yogurt (I like Cascade Fresh or Stony Hill Organic for the live active culture probiotics) and maybe 1/4 cup (like a handful) of kibble. Make sure you take out equally as much in her evening meal so she's not getting extra calories.


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## Ryan Venables (Sep 15, 2010)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I likewise agree she appears overweight for a working Malinois in the video and on the upper end of "normal" for a pet. I'd call her a 6 or 7 out of 9 body condition score. My female is currently out of shape due to the nasty winter and is carrying about 5 extra lbs at 55 lbs and she's the same height as your girl. If you can pinch the skin over her ribs and feel more than just a tiny slip of fat between your fingers, she needs to cut weight as a working dog. If she vomits bile in the morning if she doesn't get a small meal, offer her a spoonful or two of fat free plain high quality yogurt (I like Cascade Mountain or Stony Hill Organic for the live active culture probiotics) and maybe 1/4 cup (like a handful) of kibble. Make sure you take out equally as much in her evening meal so she's not getting extra calories.


Ahh thanks for that... a non subjective test I can do. Just did it, and she's right at what you described. But for trial working in the summer, I'd still peel a lil more off. 

Thanks for the tip on the vomiting. Any idea on what may be causing it?


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

It could be a number of things, but over production of stomach acids or a hiatal hernia (where the most proximal part of the stomach teloscopes into the esophagus) is not uncommon. You do want to prevent it though because it can cause esophagitis from irritation from the refluxed acid. 

Here's the gold standard for body condition scoring. Most working dog folks like to keep their dogs at about a 4 to 4.5. So lean and a teeny bit ribby.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Ryan Venables said:


> I will address these as I have numbered:
> 
> 1. I agree with this. One of the things I wonder about is whether there is any point in attempting to train this into her. I've heard some say concentrate only one one thing (i.e. PPD, SchH, FR...etc), others say a dog can wear more than one hat.
> 
> ...


If you are super serious about sport then the focus should really be there.
It takes a lot of time and commitment, and an iffy dog will need more focus and work in a sport

PP training "may" bring a lot of issues to the sport work.

Most dogs while in drive will show much better confidence, a better barometer is when the dog is out of drive. Take dog for walks at night, etc..

Dogs vocal on the sleeve can be a nerve thing, or might just be a vocal dog. Taking the sleeve and running away with it may just be a dog that is more possessive, a dog working in something other than just high prey, might also just spit the sleeve out, just throwing that out there.
Dogs getting chewy and excited on the sleeve MAY be showing nerve or low confidence issues.

Babying a dog and letting it on your couch or bed is not going to hurt its confidence if it has confidence. Unless you were really heavy handed with the dog in other ways....

I am against you breeding the dog for sure now that you said it has a genetic digestive disorder, not gonna change that opinion ever...just to be clear. It really irks me to hear you say you are not ruling it out.

If you are going to try to breed dogs, you should be trying to improve on the breed average. Do not measure the qualities of your dog against some SHOW breeder or PET dogs. The Malinois was not made to be a show dog. It was made to be a working dog. 

There are lots of things that you could be trying to assess the dog further but doing those things may limit your sport chances, especially if the dog is not very strong.

The gunshots do not bother the dog when done for SCH ob.

Has the dog ever been exposed to gunshots on the bite? or on the approach to the bite? (I am guessing no) you might be suprised to see what might happen if you have not done that, then you could try it at night a good distance away from the handler and see what happens..
I am "guessing" it might not go that well...could be 100% wrong.


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## Ryan Venables (Sep 15, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> If you are super serious about sport then the focus should really be there.
> It takes a lot of time and commitment, and an iffy dog will need more focus and work in a sport
> 
> PP training "may" bring a lot of issues to the sport work.
> ...


Thanks again for the reply.

She has been exposed to gun shots on the bite... did fine. Didn't spit it out, didn't phase her at all to be honest. When we did gunshots approaching the bite or while in obedience, she looks at the "shooter" and immediately recovers.

You're right about the breeding. Had a quick discussion with my wife and she will not be bred... spaying is another issue (as I raised in another post previously) as I said, it was kind of one of those things that I always considered and completely forgot about the vomiting issue until we started talking about it today.

I think you answered the question I was really searching for... it is hard for a dog to wear a couple of different hats and do them both well.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Ryan Venables said:


> Thanks again for the reply.
> 
> She has been exposed to gun shots on the bite... did fine. Didn't spit it out, didn't phase her at all to be honest. When we did gunshots approaching the bite or while in obedience, she looks at the "shooter" and immediately recovers.
> 
> ...


Good to know about the gunshots, I was wrong AGAIN..LOL

Enjoy the dog you have, do what interests you, learn from it...


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## Ryan Venables (Sep 15, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> Good to know about the gunshots, I was wrong AGAIN..LOL
> 
> Enjoy the dog you have, do what interests you, learn from it...


Agreed.


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## Jen Henriksen (Dec 21, 2010)

Our offer to trade still stands 

Riley grew again...I can now touch his back without bending over.  He weighed in at 72 lbs last week just for comparison. I expected him to be heavier!


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## Jerry Cudahy (Feb 18, 2010)

Ryan, Look very seriously into Ataxia. Ditch the gluten in the dogs diet and the puking will go away.

Spay the bitch if she is not already.


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

Regarding her lack of confidence on night walks, was she always like that?

I think you're dealing with genetics here. The dog is what she is, period. In the vid she looks like a happy (slightly pudgy) goof having a fun time. You gave her a fun thing to do, she's a mal she likes to bite, but just because she is having fun biting an over sized tug toy stuck to a guy's arm I wouldn't in any way take that as an indication that she doesn't live up to the same standard (as if her biting the SchH sleeve was a solid indication of a brave dog) in other parts of her life. I think the things you are expecting of her are completely unrelated to how she does playing her game of SchH. 

How was she introduced to the sport? Gradually, and I'm sure in a way that would support her confidence. Was great pressure put on her the first day she came on the field? I doubt it, it was introduced gradually and it isn't an issue because if it ever was she was desensitized through training. 

How much work did you do with her as a pup, not just socializing in therms of having her meet people, but taking her to new and strange places, dark warehouses that echo, places that are eerily quiet. Her spookiness sounds like an environmental issue which is different then social confidence. Also the gunshot may not be a good indication if it only happens in a place and at a time of fun or while she is engaged in drive. It may also be about visual things in the environment that set her fears off, ie she hears some sound in the dark but can't tell where it's coming from and that makes her uneasy. 

I'm not sure why you would expect her to act aggressively towards a dog that has charged her. Has she had a lot of dog fighting experience to know what to do? Some dogs as dumb as it sounds don't expect the other dog to harm them, especially if they mostly had only positive experiences with other dogs, and it's a big surprise to them when they do. Some dogs don't get the concept of "I'm being attacked" until they feel physical pain greater then their threshold. I've seen a few dogs happily playing with a dog that was in the process of attacking them. Some dogs are not fighters. 

Plus regarding her being very social with other people, again I think genetics. Some mals are genetically more social while others are quite unsocial with those they don't know. It may have had nothing to do with how you brought her up. I know your breeder certainly doesn't breed for social aggression, or as she puts it, she breeds for stability. Not that what she says she breeds for is really what the end result is, but that could be a part of the equation. I doubt any of the dogs she has bred or that is in her breeding program has any significant level of social aggression or the aloofness with strangers you are expecting your dog to have. 

I definitely would not base your treatment of the new pup based on how you treated your old one and how you think those actions affected her. These dogs are going to be very different, from very different genetic backgrounds. Treat the new dog as a clean slate and raise and train him based on what his needs are, not what your old dogs needs were when she was a pup. What may have been the right thing to do for her may be completely wrong for him.


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## Jerry Cudahy (Feb 18, 2010)

Ryan ask your vet for *metronidazole (Flagyl)* 

Bet the puking will subside and if it comes back after a week it was a digestive problem behind the puking


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## Ryan Venables (Sep 15, 2010)

Jen Henriksen said:


> Our offer to trade still stands
> 
> Riley grew again...I can now touch his back without bending over.  He weighed in at 72 lbs last week just for comparison. I expected him to be heavier!


Haha... He's a big boy! Will let you know about training on Sat


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## Ryan Venables (Sep 15, 2010)

Jerry Cudahy said:


> Ryan ask your vet for *metronidazole (Flagyl)*
> 
> Bet the puking will subside and if it comes back after a week it was a digestive problem behind the puking


Jerry I will thx... We are also thinking of putting her on a raw diet along with The Honest Kitchen

As for spaying - I'm not convinced I want to go down that road just yet even if we don't breed her. I've posted on this before and I know it's controversial, but I have not made my mind up...I want to pursue the healthiest option for the dog


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## Jen Henriksen (Dec 21, 2010)

Ryan Venables said:


> Haha... He's a big boy! Will let you know about training on Sat


Thanks! Definitely want to get there this week as long as nothing else connected to our house starts crumbling lol


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## Don Rumsberg (Feb 23, 2011)

Train OFF the Field as much as on, and also in more of a PSA style.

Later in this new training introduce Hidden Sleeves, ie Car jacking scenarios etc. 

I would also incorporate 'Set up scenarios' at your home with a helper in a Hidden sleeve as training progresses, if you want a dog that will actually protect you.


A Mock home invasion if you will, get a new helper for this or speak to your trainer about it. 
You start slow and build. 
Start with dog growling and have 'helper' running away. Than build on that kind of winning and confidence and later put more pressure on the dog.


The only way to know what you have is to test it, and train for it as much as possible.

Once you go to the 'dark side', theres no going back, it will require responsibility on your part, your dog will forever have to be supervised to an exten, or at least much moreso than it is now.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Jerry Cudahy said:


> Ryan, Look very seriously into Ataxia. Ditch the gluten in the dogs diet and the puking will go away.
> 
> Spay the bitch if she is not already.


I respectfully disagree with gluten being the cause. My Toller has this issue and is raw fed. You can keep a dog with this issue at a good working weight with very few flair ups if you work at it however.


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## Ryan Venables (Sep 15, 2010)

Don Rumsberg said:


> Train OFF the Field as much as on, and also in more of a PSA style.
> 
> Later in this new training introduce Hidden Sleeves, ie Car jacking scenarios etc.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the suggestions. Not to such how much my wife will like our home being used for home invasion scenarios... I may have to try and sell that one a bit. But I like the practical application of it.

I also agree with your last paragraph. As a former police officer, now in law school, I get liability presented to me every day in class. Hell I pay X amount of dollars a year to study it - so yep, I know what you're talking about 

She's great now and I NEVER have to worry about her doing something squirrelly (and yep I know she's a dog so she can never be 100% trusted... I use this philosophy around kids), but adding in the home scenario may be asking for something.

Good suggestions, things I'll have to think about - especially since we have a puppy coming in 6 weeks, and I expect him to be on the larger scale of Mals

I've been looking at her a little more lately, since I started this thread, and well I'm not sure she has any confidence issues. She's solid on the SchH field, nothing bugs her there. She only spooks sometimes at night, but then recovers immediately - albeit looking around to see what is going on. Case in point, we were walking last week and she got weirded out by a bobcat clearing snow off the sidewalk. She thought it was weird and kept an eye on it the whole time but the physical indicators were pinned back ears and a really low hanging tail. I think it may be just that she's never seen something like that before, let alone on the sidewalk where we walk.

In the end, she's a great dog the way she is - pudgy and all so you guys say  I also think it may be hard to have the perfect dog (i.e. one that can protect at home, excels on the SchH/FR field, and is a great social pet).

Jenn - you're right it's not gluten, she's on a grain free kibble. I've never taken her to the vet to get it looked at, as it's never been a problem as long as she's fed first thing in the morning and in the evening.


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