# Abusive Training



## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

How many folks come accross abusive training methods? Or are in clubs where you question some of the methods they use?

I am not talking about dealing with a hard or aggressive dog, I am talking about training that just ain't right.

What sports or purpose were these dogs being trained for?


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

There is a trainer south of here that is hard on dogs. Not "abusiive" but leaving the dog in confusion and fear of correction. He uses no form of positive motivation. I ended up learning from him before I knew anything about dogs at all. The dog I had was genetically nervous to start and the training ruined her. My vet recommended euthanizing her. I did.

She was being trained for CGC.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

That is a can of worms for sure.

Many think that if the correction had no effect the first time, then the second needs to be harder, and so on untill it becomes abuse.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Lets keep names out of it. No need to bash trainers. But I am thinking along the lines of kicking the crap out of a soft dog because of lost patience, or hanging dogs that didn't need to be hung, pushing dogs into a corner to make them bite because they genetically dont "have it" type stuff.

Just wondering how common this type of training is and in which venues it most seems to occur. I can imagine that in the non-sport PPD community there are alot of people abusing dogs in order to get them to bite. And in the sport community I can see that it is likely alot of people lose their patience with dogs for things like skipping a blind, or losing patience with a hyper older pup that's not focusing on what the handler wants etc.

Stuff that even a hard trainer of sound mind and common sense would look at and say "that's wrong".


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## Andy Andrews (May 9, 2006)

My pond is pretty small; One person admitted to acts that I view as abusive, and the other one was great. That's what, a 50% rate of probability? ;-) 




Andy.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

There is another club in this area and I've seen video of the TD gut kick a dog "Just to show him who's boss". The poor dog doubled up and started puking. JMHO but I don't see any reason short of a full blown attack to warrent that. The guy (just retired) was physically abusive to the dogs and verbally abusive to the people in his club. WTF! Do some people just like being efd over?!


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

> There is another club in this area and I've seen video of the TD gut kick a dog "Just to show him who's boss". The poor dog doubled up and started puking. JMHO but I don't see any reason short of a full blown attack to warrent that. The guy (just retired) was physically abusive to the dogs and verbally abusive to the people in his club. WTF! Do some people just like being efd over?!


  OMG! That is just awful! OK - so the guy I referred to knew I was wanting to be a dog trainer, and he gave me a word of advice - "When you can't stop, it's time to get out." It applies a couple ways to dog training, but what he meant was - don't train a dog to control something for an ego trip.

Compared with your story, the guy I was referring to sounds like a nice guy. 

There's the infamous video of a trainer breaking a chain collar during a correction. It didn't look that awful - possibly because the chain broke so the dog didn't recieve the intended impact of the correction. I have always wonder if it was a terribly rough trainer or if it was a normal trainer who didn't check and the dog was wearing a thin show chain?

There was a dog I refused to train because it would require such strong corrections that 1) neither the owner or I would have been able to deliver the correction and 2) I felt it was a liability to my reputation.

I guess what I'm getting at it I'm racking my brain and coming up with nothing. Good.

I've seen some bad bad handling in an emotional moment by an owner, but even then I can only think of one incident and it was still extrememly minor compared to kicking a dog in the gut so hard it pukes.  I just can't wrap my brain around that.

Was that the TD's own dog?


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## Lindsay Janes (Aug 9, 2007)

I haven't met a trainer that is abusive, but I adopted a dog from humane society. The first few weeks, he was showing some fearful aggression to crate or when someone tried to grab his collar to lead him somewhere. None of my dogs who I raise from the brith react that kind of aggression to my parents or me. When we do that to them, we don't pull their collar unless they don't understand what I ask them to do. 

When he did that, I was surprised. When I brought him to my house, he was the most well behavior dog out of four. Wouldn't dare to jump on bed or couch. I'm not exactly sure how his pervious owner taught him to keep him off. I thought it was neat because we always had dogs who would jump on couch or bed with us. (Not while we were sleeping.) 

When I asked him to go in the crate, he was reacting me with aggression and showing teeth. I stand still and be calm about it. I didn't want to fight with him. All I want to do is put him in the crate. He ran under the table and tried to make himself look smaller by hiding. I have never had a dog who act like this to me. It makes me wonder if this dog was physically abused by his pervious owner. I was not sure if he was afraid of going in the crate or he was trying to challenage me. 

I thought I must have make him feel very intimated so I got down on my knees. He came to me and I was able to get his collar attached to the leash. I took him to the crate. After that he didn't get aggressive with me when I asked him to go in the crate. I don't need to get on my knees anymore. He likes going in there to nap or chews a bone. 
:-k


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## Terry Fisk (Jul 26, 2007)

Yes I have seen it at local clubs and from visitors to our club. One must assume the behavior is abusive if the dog does not understand what is being asked of it and the handler still insists on inflicting severe punishment.

Terry

Another field - Dog that does not understand down/stay back tied with a prong and corrected with a prong to the point of screaming, flopping around upside down, retching and defecation. Happened to more than one dog at this field.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Terry Fisk said:


> Another field - Dog that does not understand down/stay back tied with a prong and corrected with a prong to the point of screaming, flopping around upside down, retching and defecation. Happened to more than one dog at this field.


Seen that at least 3 times myself, without the defecation part.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Terry Fisk said:


> Yes I have seen it at local clubs and from visitors to our club. One must assume the behavior is abusive if the dog does not understand what is being asked of it and the handler still insists on inflicting severe punishment.
> 
> Terry
> 
> Another field - Dog that does not understand down/stay back tied with a prong and corrected with a prong to the point of screaming, flopping around upside down, retching and defecation. Happened to more than one dog at this field.


I can't understand why someone would go back to a training situation like that.

DFrost


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: There's the infamous video of a trainer breaking a chain collar during a correction.

THere are some really bullshit slip chains out there. Buko has broken several, and I say Buko, because we were out for a walk and a rabbit burst right out from under us on two of the occasions. It's not like he even noticed it. The third was a light pole, and the dang thing busted and he was back at heel. I was jabbering on the phone, so I was a bit suprised and put off that it had snapped so easily. He did not look like he noticed that time either.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

a broken chain or prong isn;t abusive in my eyes, i've seen steel prongs break during a correction. Dog didn;t bother that much, boss was..çause the correction didn't come through the way it had to come through.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Terry Fisk said:


> One must assume the behavior is abusive if the dog does not understand what is being asked of it and the handler still insists on inflicting severe punishment.


I think this is the best definition I've seen so far. I would add to it, a handler that insists on inflicting severe punishment when the dog doesn't perform a behavior it does understand, but a lower level of punishment could have also gotten the desired response.

And I've seen abusive training in every venue I've ever trained in, from AKC obedience to Schutzhund/French Ring to agility. Even in conformation. Sometimes it's just crappy handling/training, people with no timing, or who were taught this way and don't know any better, or who assume their dog knows a lot more than it does and correct it for percieved disobedience. But other times, especially in the protection dog sports, I see people that seem proud of how much crap their dog can take, and still work. It's a "badge of pride" to them that they can randomly kick the holy crap out of their dog, sometimes for absolutely nothing, and it will get up, shake itself off, and go back to work.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

David Quote:
"I can't understand why someone would go back to a training situation like that"

We've discussed this very thing at our club. Stockholm syndrome is the only answer we can come up with!


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

I've seen it. Wish that I didn't but I did. This handler was handing the dog everything he could give him. Picked him up and body slammed him, kicked him, hit him in the head, yanked and jerked. Everyone that was there couldn't believe this was going on. What made me mad was I wasn't the first person to tell him that was enough. Just before I was going to tell him to stop, the decoy( helper ) did. Me and the decoy haven't been back sence.
The explanation that was given to us by the handler was that we didn't know this dog and that was what was needed. BS, no dog should have had to take that.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

David Frost said:


> I can't understand why someone would go back to a training situation like that.


You'd be surprised what people can become convinced is neccessary. I've watched people do a complete 180 in their attitudes about dogs in less than a years time, because of who they were associated with. People who thought I was heavy handed with my dogs because of a hard pinch collar correction are now training their own dogs using methods that make the hardest pinch collar correction look like a gentle pat on the head. Methods that leave the dog bleeding. Because someone convinced them this was the only way to train the dog. And it was done slowly, with small escalations each time, until you don't realize what is happening. If that's the only type of training you are seeing, and you are dealing with a type of dog you have never had before, one that can actually take that abuse and keep on working, it's easy to believe that's the only way that dog can be controlled. And that it really isn't as bad as it is, because after all the dog shakes it right off and goes back to work. And if the trainer has you convinced not to go anywhere else to learn, you will never know other methods might succeed. 

Only positive thing I can say about this is that in general it seems to be a short lived phenomenon. Eventually the person wises up and realizes that they are making no actual progress with the dog, or they finally get out and see other people with similar dogs having success with much more fair methods, or finally they just can’t stomache the abuse anymore and decide they have to either find another way, or stop training. Usually. Unfortunately not always. IMO for some people abusing their dog feeds into their ego, they have no desire to stop.

Even worse, some people are successful with these methods. Try telling someone who is new to the training/trialing scene that just because group X is very successful in trial that doesn't excuse the methods they used to get there.


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## Pauline Michels (Sep 1, 2006)

I've seen abusive "training" that included gut wrenching kicks, "helicoptering", small dog bashed up against a wall, beatings with the buckle end of a lead and more. The really sad thing is watching a dog that is on the receiving end of this treatment offering all kinds of behaviors trying to figure out what the "trainer" wants. It's heartbreaking. Just as sad is seeing a good natured dog nail the handler due to the stress it's under. (Sad for the dog, not the handler.)

I asked one person why they treated their dog that way. The answer....dog has to realize it cannot make choices, it only does what it's given a command to do. 

After moving out of a few of these so called training environments I almost gave up on dog training. Luckily I found a SUPER TD who teaches, helps and encourages the dog. Only after the dog is clear about what it should be doing does it get a correction. And the correction is based on what the dog can handle. Guess which trainer in the above examples has the most titled dogs in the club!

There is a place in hell for the abusers....and the gates will be "manned" by the biggest, baddest of the angry dogs!!!


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## Amber Scott Dyer (Oct 30, 2006)

I went to a trial once where a guy was training before trial day and was body slamming and kicking the dog for every little thing it did. He was kindly instructed to stop NOW =; 

funniest (or maybe saddest) thing was that the dog didn't pay him any attention, and seemed to be so accustomed to the corrections that it didn't faze her. Even from the training standpoint of a noob, pretty damn pointless.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

I've seen it and the guy's reason..."nobody wants to train and learn from me." This guy would kick, punch, prong, slam, and fry his dogs. And get this, it was positive motivational training. Our dog training group doesn't allow it. Yes, you can make a hard correction on your dog, but corrections are not K9 abuse. As a club member, steps should be taken to remove someone for this type of misbehavior. Anyone can beat the hell out of something and say they are training. 

The real test is to get into the dog's head, find out the problem and fix it through positive and innovative training scenarios. I have seen this on the Schutzhund level and in private training. There is no place for this and as a working dog club, you can only ruin your name with such actions. It's like child abuse!


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## Lynsey Fuegner (Apr 11, 2007)

I ruined the first dog (Fenris) I was training for Schutzhund with the first club I was trainng with. The dog was about 9 months old and going through a little bit of a fear stage, he was breaking a down stay and on my way up to correct him he jumped and gave a bit of a grumble. The training director of the club informed me that this dog was a "dominant dog" and needed to be dealt with now! He had me lie the dog down, with a flexi leash on one hand, and he instructed ME to flank my dog, if the dog should glance back at me he told me to strike the dog in the head with the flexi. It made no sense to me and less sense to the dog, it was one of the worst experiences I've had in the sport and it almost drove me out of Schutzhund. It created more fear and caused the dog to be fearful, teetering on agressive towards me. Luckily I found the club I am in now, they helped me through rehab of the relationship I had with Fen, and though he's not a schutzhund dog he's a great couch potato :grin:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Anyone getting heavy handed at our club has to answer to Steve.    :grin:


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## Angelique Cadogan (Jan 3, 2008)

Jerry that sounds horrible,I don't want to read all of the post cause I want to sleep good tonight but that type of abuse is terrible and we will not tolerate any of it in our Club. I see little here and there , don't know that I would categorize it as abuse but "harsh" might be a better word ,I don't know at times that I should say anything ,but one time I was told to hang my dog because he growled at me, I refused and the growling stopped anyway, I think at the time I was asking my dog to do something he was very confused about. Anyway , this dog is long retired and this was many years ago but I'm glad today when I look back on that day and stood up and said"no way"


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Lynsey, I have trained with the "beat them down when they are young so you dont have to worry about it when they are 2" type trainers. Unfortunately they really believe this is the way to go. Most of the dogs they treat this way at 7, 8, 9 months old, would probably not have been all that difficult to handle at 2 anyway. I saw one very soft 8 month old GSD pup being taught OB with pure compulsion, corrections that made the pup yelp on every pop, and his reason was "I know this dogs grandfather, if he was 2 he would be fighting me now" :roll:


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## Lynsey Fuegner (Apr 11, 2007)

Mike, I know what you mean (and I believe it's a shame) that they believe it is the only way to train. My dog Fenris is one of the biggest softies; in fact it was the training that caused him to become an issue as he got older, not the other way around! He was scared to death of me and by the time he reached 80 lbs to my 95 lbs his fear agression was dangerous. Luckily I saw it was the training and not the dog's temperment that was the problem and I was able to fix things and have a great pet. 
That whole "if he was 2 he would be fighting me now" is such a sad way to think of a dog, and so is pure compulsion...one of the things we believe in the club I am in now is, if the dog knew what we wanted, and what he would get (provided he was properly motivated) if he did that, than why wouldn't the dog do what was asked?


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