# Mondioring - www.belgiank9friends.com



## Axel Van der Borght (Jun 15, 2008)

http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=1b30m3xoyzY

Training the attack with baton for mondioring with our youngest female Kienaï.

Axel
www.belgiank9friends.com

ps I hope it works, first time I post a vid, lol [-o<


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## Johan Dekinder (Sep 17, 2007)

Nice and fast Axel!
I noticed on other videos you often train on the forearm. Myself I prefer to see this kind of attack (biceps). Again, nice work.

Groetjes, Jo.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Nice hit by the dog and snappy recall. Great looking dog!


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

Very Nice...dog, decoy work....enjoyed it....thanks for sharing! Mo


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## Axel Van der Borght (Jun 15, 2008)

Hey Jo,

We prefer to learn our dogs to bite the legs.
We have some dogs that bite on the chest or biceps.

Not all dogs that we are working with are ours, that's why.

Axel


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

You seem to be putting not a lot of pressure with the baton but still some pressure for the dog to work through the baton. I understood that with Mondio there wasn't a lot of stick pressure. What level would that stickwork be considered in a trial scenario?


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## Andy Larrimore (Jan 8, 2008)

Very Nice entry. I loved it!


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## Axel Van der Borght (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi ,

I don't put a lot of pressure with the stick for that dog because on the vid she was only 1 year old. Although she wouldn't be impressed by it. But I don't put a lot of pressure on purpose. I want to be her friend, we are playing. In a trial the decoy is fighting with the dog. We think it is not a good idea to allways go in a fight without the dog. Not with any dog anyway.
The dog in the vid is very strong in the head, strong nerves. She doesn't need to go in a fight.

We like to make our dogs stronger in stead of smaller because that is what many people do.

I hope I made myself clear as it is not allways easy to write in English.

Axel


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I understand you really well. Currently in the US, there seems to be a get a bigger stick mentality with the new people. Sometimes you wonder if they realize it is a dog, not a Disney movie. LOL

I hear about the "necessity" to train with the accessories in Mondio, but I am of the opinion that the dog needs to learn entry first, and doing so much with accessories is more to calm the handlers insecurities about his dog than neccessary FOR the dog.

Last weekend, it was suggested that the new decoy use accessories to "slow the dog down" which I find amusing. When you think about that thought process, which many in my club do, you see that the accessories are impressing the dog, and consequently not done correctly IMO. They should just piss your dog off that there is something getting in the way of his bite.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Axel Van der Borght said:


> We like to make our dogs stronger in stead of smaller because that is what many people do.
> 
> I hope I made myself clear as it is not allways easy to write in English.


That's a perfect explanation Axel. The stick pressure is pretty mild after the bite but she went through the stick barrage on the entry like it wasn't there. Especially the taking of the arm to counter the stick was beautiful. 

I've seen a few dogs that all they have is 'legs' on the brain and when they get opposition from the stick they all go to pieces instead of taking the wrist, bicep or chest. We are working on stick counters right now and it is really exciting to watch my dog learn them. We are training in French Ring but the movement for the dog is basically the same in your video. 

I'd really like to try Mondio one day it just sounds like so much fun. 

BTW welcome to the forum!


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I understand you really well. Currently in the US, there seems to be a get a bigger stick mentality with the new people. Sometimes you wonder if they realize it is a dog, not a Disney movie. LOL
> 
> I hear about the "necessity" to train with the accessories in Mondio, but I am of the opinion that the dog needs to learn entry first, and doing so much with accessories is more to calm the handlers insecurities about his dog than neccessary FOR the dog.
> 
> Last weekend, it was suggested that the new decoy use accessories to "slow the dog down" which I find amusing. When you think about that thought process, which many in my club do, you see that the accessories are impressing the dog, and consequently not done correctly IMO. They should just piss your dog off that there is something getting in the way of his bite.


Jeff, 

Since you moved to San Antonio to title your dog and Lone Star MRC is the only game in town, you might not want to be so disrespectful to your club members. You also might want to listen and think before you assume you know what other people are talking about. 

The technique I was talking about involved using a blind or barrel in a fashion somewhat similar to its use in teaching FR laterals. The decoy stands just past the barrel/blind and the dog is sent fron a distance away on the same side as the decoy. As the dog gets close the decoy pivots around the barrel and backs up facing the dog. The goal is to slow the dog down for several reasons. One so the decoy can work on the timing of the use of the accessory. Ideally, he puts the maximum pressure on the dog when it is one stride/leap away from the decoy. Waving your accessory around while the dog is 30 yards down the field ruins any surprise advantage you might have. It also makes it safer for new decoys. In addition, it helps to teach the dog to push through the accessory so when he is faced with a decoy like Moguez (who explained this to us) who is very capable of slowing down all but a very few dogs the dog still has confidence that he can power though the accessories.

The dogs we are doing this with do have an entry already. Do you not remember the sessions where we worked on teaching the primarily leg dogs to go up and over the accessory? Not every dog in the club is blinding fast but there are several who are MR3's so they must not being doing too bad.

To teach your dog only one way to deal with the accessory would be folly...unless your only goal is a MR1 at the club you are training with :evil: 

Tell you what, I will take out Villier next training session and you can show me how we need to speed him up.

Lisa


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Tell you what, I will take out Villier next training session and you can show me how we need to speed him up.

Who ever said he was that fast......other than you ? ? ? ? There are dogs as fast as Villier in the club. Not to say he is slow, but he is not all that fast. The main reason people are not catching him, is that he knows pivot leg, and THEY do not. Next training, feel free to send him from where ever you want. I'll catch him for you.

That said, when did disagreeing with someone become disrespectful? ? ? ? 

I am going to have to check the rules and come back to this, but, I do not remember holding a dog off with accessories that had no hesitation on the entry being legal. I remember reading that hesitation on the entry allowed the decoy to aggress the dog in that manner, not just because "he felt like it".

Quote: You also might want to listen and think before you assume you know what other people are talking about.

Nice try, but I know what you are talking about, and if you ever paid attention at all, you would know what I was talking about, and it is NOT what you are talking about. Love ya, but it's not like you pay much attention when other dogs are being worked. Who pissed in YOUR cereal anyway ? ?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Here is what I am talking about with the accessories. 

*The Accessories*

· The accessories used during the trial should have the same objective as the baton: to impress and evaluate the dog’s courage.
· Accessories cannot cause physical injury or pain to the dog.
· Accessories cannot be used as a shield; the possibility for the dog to pass through them and bite should always be there.
· For the attack, the decoy should use the accessories to test the dog’s courage, but it should not be used to entice the dog to miss (esquive). 
· The accessories can touch the dog always but must never cause pain or physical injury. 
· The Judge will decide the way in which accessories should be used by the decoy for work that is selective yet sportsman like.
· Just like in the use of the baton, if the decoy is not proficient at using accessories, or uses brutality, he will be penalized.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I would be dangerous if I could only use a computer.

Here is where they talk about the attacks that pertains to what I was attempting to do in my previous post.

· If the dog does not bite on the entry, it is possible to esquive, use a barrage to keep him away, or use opposition to keep him from biting.
· If the dog lets go of his prey before the end of the exercise, the decoy should try to keep him from biting (i.e. staying static, esquive) depending on the dog’s attitude.

So between not being able to use the accessories as a shield, and only using opposition IF the dog did NOT bite on entry, I am not sure what the big deal with accessories is.

I am pretty sure that unless the decoy bashes my dog in the face with a huge bag of cans that he is going to bite on the entry.

Maybe I am misinterpreting what the rules say. Always a possibility.(not)


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

As a last little note, so that it is VERY clear, I want to state that I am not bashing a club. The club is very helpful and filled with knowledgeable people that will go out of their way to help get a handler/dog to where they can go.

Somehow, in DISCUSSING things, here, or anywhere there is a tendancy to go hog wild and accuse anyone DISCUSSING something of bashing, or disrespecting. Disagreeing with something, anything is taboo, so of course, I get in trouble.

Most of what I said here pertained to my OVERALL perception of training dogs covering all of my time with the protection sports. I have always leaned towards getting the entry before going to accessories.


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Jeff,

Not that I am exactly the warm and fuzzy type but you do excel in insulting people and making enemies. I have a little talent in that arena too so I we have a bond.

That said, you took something out of context and in addition competely misunderstood it. Saying this technique is designed to slow down a dog's entry is like saying having a dog drag a tire or work on a bungee will slow down the entry. The point is to slow the dog down on this exercise so the decoy can teach what he wants to the dog.

Sorry, there is no dog in the club as fast as Villier. If I thought it was safe, I would ask you to do a flee just to get it on video. So far the only person in San Antonio I have felt comfortable doing any long sends on is Arturo. He has worked extensively with many very good French Ring trainers and has very good technique. He also knows his limitations and is humble so I trust him to keep my dog and himself safe. It is my responsibilty to make choices that protect my dog and also protect macho idiots that think they can catch any dog. Not that I am pointing a finger at you.

Maybe if Cari and I get carried away with the adult beverages one day I will lose a little judgement and let the beast play with you.

The most important rule in the list of rules is the one that states it is up to the judge to make the final call as to the conduct of the decoy. Despite all the whining and complaining about decoys holding dogs off with the accessory, the accessory must be penetrable and some part of the body must be accessible to the dog.

Watch this video posted by Lisa Geller of Moguez during the USMRA championships this year. He held off three of six MR 3 dogs including our little pet Loki (DIW). Yet, the judge allowed it and the strings of bottles were penetrable and there were areas of his body accessible to the dog. In Portugal he held off many dogs with similar technique and none of the panel of three judges reprimanded him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFcgcBH2iDc

Funny, you are always berating USA decoys for being to soft and too slow but I don't see you out there showing us the way. I do hope you will join us at the decoy camp at the end of this year. You will have the opportunity to certify and show us what a true decoy looks like. 

I cannot disagree that MR in the USA has a long way to go. I hope you join us for the long haul and certify as a decoy and get your dog titled to level 3 so you can play with us in Europe. Poor old Feist needs to retire but someone has to represent. It sucked to see the weak spots in our training in Portugal but Feist's antics on and off the field made us the most photographed dog team at the event. The decoy that pointed out the weaknesses for us has also become a good friend. When he gives training advice on preparing a dog for high caliber work, I am going to listen.

You are my buddy Jeff but not the only one who deserves respect in the club. What you and I joke about in private and thr frustrations we share should only be posted on a public forum in a productive way. Pick on me, I am right back at you but some of the other folks in the club are just too easy targets.

BYW, I just had a root canal so tread lightly!


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## Ann Putegnat (Mar 11, 2008)

Lisa said it pretty well. You discuss whatever you want to discuss here, Jeff. What you cannot do is bash our club. There are only so many bridges that you can burn here. Especially considering that at least three club people have gone well out of their way to go pick you up so you can come to this club to have more fodder for your internet ramblings. You are more than welcome to discuss other places you have been, if you choose. But no further criticism of this club will be tolerated. This is not an invitation to spar. No need to answer this post.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: If I thought it was safe, I would ask you to do a flee just to get it on video.

It will be fine, apparently you are under the mistaken impression that I cannot catch a dog on the flee. Anytime you would like, I will catch the dog on a flee, and you can videotape it all you want. It will be fine, and you can post it wherever you would like. The safety excuse is REALLY lame. If I was so unsafe, then I would not be out there catching dogs. It is a nice little way to imply that I cannot work dogs though. Bravo!

Quote: Funny, you are always berating USA decoys for being to soft and too slow but I don't see you out there showing us the way. I do hope you will join us at the decoy camp at the end of this year. You will have the opportunity to certify and show us what a true decoy looks like. 

I cannot help you out there, I am too old, but the search for fast decoys continues. Obviously you are looking at this as a negative, not as something that should be worked on. A few years ago we had a couple of guys that were athletic, but they are gone now. We need to recruit younger faster guys. This is very difficult of course, as it is hard to get people to play this sport. THis is not something "fun to do with your dog" it is more of an obsession.

Ann, I am being very tolerant, and I do not ramble.


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

This could go on forever Jeff. I am not trying to imply that you cannot decoy but am openly saying there are very few decoys who I feel can "safely" catch Villier on a long bite. I was the same way in Schutzhund with Feist. He had very nice entries on the long bite which I worked hard to maintain by only sending him on decoys I knew could make a smooth, safe catch.

People I trust advised me to be careful with Villier because he is a big, fast dog who takes no care for his own safety. He is the only Malinois I have ever worked with who slams into me, door jams, the crate door etc.. I am continuously bruised by him. In fact, in that respect he reminds me of the Rotti's I have known. I love him and do not want to see him hurt. 

Like all of the decoys in the club you have your strengths and weaknesses. I do not even send the dog on long bites on my own boyfriend (and I am sure he is grateful I do not insist he catch him). He is not your average dog on the long bite. He has his strengths and weaknesses too and his entries are his fortune.

It is a shame to see you spitting and hissing at your own club members. We do not all have to be friends but belittling others to make yourself look better is a bit "highschool". And very, very transparent. Ann speaks of burning bridges and I am beginning to smell smoke. Too bad, as I really would like to see Buko earn the level three title like his brothers Jackson and Joker. He deserves it. 

See you at training :razz: 



PS My apologies to Alex for hijacking his thread. The work you are doing with that little girl is beautiful and her entries are to die for. Do you work her on the leg as well? My two dogs are primarily leg dogs as their foundation is in FR. I teaching them to come up on the face attacks when the accessory blocks the lower body. Do you teach dogs upper body on all bites or just the face attacks?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: See you at training









Not likely, as it sounds like the bridge has fallen into the river. Too bad, as most of what has been brought up was not brought up by me. Sensitivity levels are the downfall of MR.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

... and back to:




Lisa Maze said:


> ..... to Alex ..... The work you are doing with that little girl is beautiful and her entries are to die for. Do you work her on the leg as well? My two dogs are primarily leg dogs as their foundation is in FR. I teaching them to come up on the face attacks when the accessory blocks the lower body. Do you teach dogs upper body on all bites or just the face attacks?


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## Axel Van der Borght (Jun 15, 2008)

Lisa,
Normally we prefer learning dogs to bite the leg as young dog. Because it is very difficult to learn an adult dog to bite the leg when he is teached to bite the upperbody or arm.
It is more easy to learn a dog to bite the upperbody or arm when he was teached to bite the leg.

The little female on the video we started with biting in the middle of the pants. Because we taught that would be a good idea for MR so decoys can not hide that part, lol.
She did very well. I still have vids of those trainings.

But she got stronger and stronger and for me as decoy it wasn't that fun anymore, lol.

So we decide to learn her to bite the upperbody , the chest.
We also do often exhibitions and that kind of attacks are more spectacular than a leg-bite.

Now she is 1,5 year and she bites what she can get which we like very much for MR.
She comes up for a face attack. But when their is an accessoires she will bite another part.

But I read also the other posts.
It looks like you have a nice working malinois. The kind of malinois most of handlers like to see in a trial but decoys rather not , hahahaa.

I am ( a non - certified ) decoy. I started decoying only 5 years ago and I am not really a big talent. It is because I am not very fast , to big and slow, lol.
And because I don' t have that kind of special talent some decoys have to work with a dog. It is also a lot about timing and no fear.
That is why I prefer to work with dogs I know and handlers I know. They know what I can and what I can't and I know their dogs and what to expect.

It is true a bad decoy can do more harm with a dog than good.

Because I am not a natural talent and I am aware of that I try to be a good helper for friends on training.
That is something I do can. Because than the helper needs to do more than just good timing and fighting the dog.

It is true it is hard to find decoys , and defenitaly hard to find a decoy that can work with any dog, hard , weak , fast or slow.
Most handlers appreciate a decoy or helper very much.
But it is important that a decoy appreciate the handlers work as well.
It must be real team-work : handler, dog and decoy. When this happens it means fun for everybody !

I have to admit I have a very talented and experienced decoy as a friend who is very patiened to teach me and who gives me the chance to learn from him and his dogs.

Axel


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## Lisa Geller (Mar 29, 2007)

{Edited by Admin: We finally got the thread back on track! Shhtt...}


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

QUOTE Axel:

t is true a bad decoy can do more harm with a dog than good. QUOTE

But not if the dog is good......


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

> But not if the dog is good......


I disagree. No dog is born with the complete skill set. All dogs learn and all dogs develop habits from repeatedly working with a decoy. If a decoy gives the dogs a bad habit then in sport this means loss of points. In other areas of work, it depends on what the habit is.

Training is training. Bad training is still bad training, no dog is impervious to it.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Ya, I see what you mean but is it not so that the decoy has to adapt to the dog? Bad training *can *occur but a good dog can't be beaten completely???


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

What I mean is, there are decoys that don't fully bring out the full potential of a dog - i.e. they keep him on "llow running", but really ruin a "strong" (good) dog, there I have my doubts. Welcome to thoughts!!


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Before I go on -- are you talking about 4 year old dogs that are experienced and have gone through their complete training? Or are you including younger more impressionable dogs in that too?

And are you meaning "working with a bad decoy once or twice," or on a regular basis over a period of time?


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

What is your definition of "ruin"? A bad decoy can ruin even the best of dogs, if they put to much pressure on them all the time, the dog consistently looses, etc. Especially if the bad work started when the dog was a pup. Every dog has it's breaking point. If there is a dog out there who doesn't, then I'd suggest it's a freak of nature. 

In general though bad decoy work won't ruin a truly good dog, but it can set them back to the point where you start to wonder if it's worth trying to fix them, and it's possible they will never reach the potential they originally had. And it might not be the character that is "injured" but just their technique and ability to perform at a high level. 

And it might not even be bad decoy work LOL IE you do good Schutzhund work with a dog for a long enough time, and it's possible you will have ruined that dog for high level French Ring competition work. It's not bad helper work, actually it's good helper work, but it's bad for FR. Some dogs will get past it, but others that foundation work is just to ingrained in.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Mike

I obviously don't mean 4 year old dogs. 

I have not seen so many dogs "ruined". What I have seen is dogs that have got too strong and have to be taken down a peg or two.

I must admit though I haven't worked with a lot of "poor decoys". An impressioniable young dog isn't a "good" dog in my opinion, but if impressionable, must be worked to gain confidence to become a good dog.

Roger and over


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

All dogs are impressionable at some point in time. If the dog is not impressionable then he is not able to learn. No dog comes out of the mother with a full skill set.

I've seen decoys kick dogs in the ribs, stomp em in the chests, whip em in the face, jam them in the long bite, flank them, make them hectic with excessive use of the whip etc etc etc.

Even the best dog can be set back from poor training. A good dog is only a good dog if the training is there to back it up.

Not that the good dogs break, but there's a whole lot of problems that need fixing if the dog isn't trained properly. I know several forum member here have exceptional dogs that were once f**ked up by the previous owners.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> I've seen decoys kick dogs in the ribs, stomp em in the chests, whip em in the face, jam them in the long bite, flank them, make them hectic with excessive use of the whip etc etc etc.
> 
> Why did you just watch it??
> 
> I'll back out here, obviously, but with one question "who lets their young dogs go through such a treatment???"


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Sorry, don't mean to be polemic, but can't grasp that decoys are still around, trying to beat a dog to get it to defend itself.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Mike Schoonbrood said:
> 
> 
> > I've seen decoys kick dogs in the ribs, stomp em in the chests, whip em in the face, jam them in the long bite, flank them, make them hectic with excessive use of the whip etc etc etc.
> ...


You haven't been around very long then and seen some of the shit that has and in some places still goes on.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Where I've trained it hasn't happened - this has nothing to do with the length of time I've been around. To see this happen a lot, I would have to visit twice or more - once would be enough for me.


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