# anyone herding with a Malinois



## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

I was wondering if anyone was herding for real with a modern Mal?


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

"herding for real" meaning what? On a working ranch/farm or ??

I herd with my Malinois, but since I don't own any livestock bigger then a chicken I'm limited to just competition stuff right now, although where I train we do a lot of chore work with the dogs also, we don't just practice patterns in an arena. 

I have sold Malinois to people who use them for day to day chores with sheep and/or cattle. They wanted something bigger then a BC and able to perform dual duty as both a herding dog and a protector around the property.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

cool, yes I meant in a working ranch/farm.

I was thinking about doing so. Just wondering if their more modern temperament was still usefull for this job.

thanks


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

In general I would say the current Malinois has retained a lot of it's herding ability. Actually in both the working and show lines. However, that said I would try to evaluate the parents of any pup I was considering, or get an older dog and evaluate it first, because I have seen some Malinois with almost NO inherent working ability. From working lines. Either excessively predatory, or just no workable interest at all, even with repeated exposure.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Awesome thanks!
My mal is pretty high prey drive. Does this equate equally to predatory?

I know this sounds like a dumb question but I just need some clarification.
Probably I am saying my Mal will kill a rag, sleeve, tug, ball all day long but a sheep?
She is still only young so she will need to develop before I can truly asses her (I assume) please correct me if my assumption is wrong.

Here's a vid of her at 8 weeks old, not much to go on I know:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6b_Xj8UmswI


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

No, they don't equate to the same thing. The Malinois I'm herding with now, Nexxus, IMO has the highest prey drive of all my Malinois at this time. But she's never been overly predatory, not saying she doesn't get amped up sometimes but she does not grip inappropriately or try to kill livestock. Actually she's very good with them, I can trust her to get up close and personal without inappropriate bites. 

One of the dogs I saw who wanted nothing more than to kill the sheep was IMO an average to lower drive Malinois, but the desire to kill was much higher than the desire to just control the sheep.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

cool thanks


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> One of the dogs I saw who wanted nothing more than to kill the sheep was IMO an average to lower drive Malinois, but the desire to kill was much higher than the desire to just control the sheep.


I bet that was a dog that didn't have a lot of overall confidence as well. Did you see that dog outside of the sheep in any other venue? Would be interesting to hear your thoughts on that. 

I still think that herding is an awesome way to test the character of any Malinois, many are just fixated on the protection sports as a way to test and gauge a working Malinois. I put all my dogs in with sheep when I can and encourage all my Ring club members to try to do at least a HIC when their dogs are youngish.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Geoff Empey said:


> I bet that was a dog that didn't have a lot of overall confidence as well. Did you see that dog outside of the sheep in any other venue? Would be interesting to hear your thoughts on that.
> 
> I still think that herding is an awesome way to test the character of any Malinois, many are just fixated on the protection sports as a way to test and gauge a working Malinois. I put all my dogs in with sheep when I can and encourage all my Ring club members to try to do at least a HIC when their dogs are youngish.


Geoff, true kill is just that--not really related to confidence, necessarily. However, see a lot of bite/slash/tear in dogs that is related to confidence issues. My bouv has a lot of prey drive but she has stock sense. I almost nine years, I've seen one grip on a sheep and that was very appropriate to the nose with sheep that didn't readily move when she stalked up. Goats and cows she has gripped in fight situations. Really, her ultimate prey trigger has to do with wings and feathers. I separate animal prey from object prey drive. I don't think you can really predict until you've tested the dog.


T


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Geoff Empey said:


> I bet that was a dog that didn't have a lot of overall confidence as well. Did you see that dog outside of the sheep in any other venue? Would be interesting to hear your thoughts on that.


The average/lower drive dog was a dog I've seen quite a bit over the years in Sch. Social with people and confident just out and about, not all that confident in the bitework.

However, 2 of the other dogs I saw, one with a high predatory instinct, the other with just no real interest, were dogs I owned. The high predatory instinct one was kind of sharp with people but showed a lot of confidene in the bitework, the other was very stable and confident with people, environment, etc.

Sometimes you may see a lack of confidence in herding showing up as gripping behavior, kind of that false bravado, if I get them first maybe they won't realize I'm afraid of them. But I don't think you can make that assumption across the board. Sometimes it's just how the drives in that dog are wired, like some dogs have higher food drive than toy drive, or hunt drive, or a more civil streak vs stronger prey, etc.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Did your Mals show much 'stalk' and 'eye' as puppies, like a Border collie would?
This one doesn't much at all.

To be honest compared with dobermans, bullies and BC that I am used to this dog seems to be a bit thick, lol.
But VERY biddable.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Matt Vandart said:


> Did your Mals show much 'stalk' and 'eye' as puppies, like a Border collie would?
> This one doesn't much at all.


Why would it? They were never bred as gatherers they were always used as tenders. Sure they will gather sheep yes, but they are a totally different animal than a Border Collie in that regard in their style of work with the genetics they have been given. If you want a dog that will work like a Border Collie with sheep get a Border Collie not a Malinois. ;-)


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Geoff Empey said:


> Why would it? They were never bred as gatherers they were always used as tenders. Sure they will gather sheep yes, but they are a totally different animal than a Border Collie in that regard in their style of work with the genetics they have been given. *If you want a dog that will work like a Border Collie with sheep* get a Border Collie not a Malinois. ;-)


Oh I don't, I am asking the question do they  and in fact the aim of this thread, to determine their usefullness for herding.
thanks for the info.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Matt Vandart said:


> Did your Mals show much 'stalk' and 'eye' as puppies, like a Border collie would?
> This one doesn't much at all.


In general they don't show a ton of eye like a BC. I have one Malinois pup right now who shows more eye then I've seen in a Mali before. When working the sheep she goes into "upright mode" because of the drive/excitement levels, but when things aren't as exciting, ie she's further from the sheep or outside the fence, she shows a lot of eye. 



> To be honest compared with dobermans, bullies and BC that I am used to this dog seems to be a bit thick, lol.
> But VERY biddable.


In general Malinois are pretty smart, some of the smartest dogs I've ever had, and I've had a lot of different breeds, but I will admit I've run into more then a few that aren't the sharpest tacks. Especially in certain lines


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Matt Vandart said:


> Oh I don't, I am asking the question do they  and in fact the aim of this thread, to determine their usefullness for herding.


Yes that the Malinois can be very useful as a working farm dog. There you have your answer!


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> In general they don't show a ton of eye like a BC. I have one Malinois pup right now who shows more eye then I've seen in a Mali before. When working the sheep she goes into "upright mode" because of the drive/excitement levels, but when things aren't as exciting, ie she's further from the sheep or outside the fence, she shows a lot of eye.
> 
> 
> 
> In general Malinois are pretty smart, some of the smartest dogs I've ever had, and I've had a lot of different breeds, *but I will admit I've run into more then a few that aren't the sharpest tacks.* Especially in certain lines


Well that would be typical for me, :lol:



Geoff Empey said:


> Yes that the Malinois can be very useful as a working farm dog. There you have your answer!


Awesome thanks!


anyone else?


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

You seem to indicate that BC type of eye/stalk is necessary for a dog to have potential as an effective herding dog. That's an incorrect assumption. Second, earlier BCs didn't have eye/stalk. That was bred in with sporting lines and primarily with trial dogs. You'll find some BCs with moderate eye or utilizing no more eye than any other breeds bred for sheep work. My bouvier has a lot of eye and stalk considering her breed--as much as some BCs. I'm working a corgi now that is 17 months old that once off with distance, she working with eye/stalk. My GSDs worked with eye. All eye is for me is mental control/communication of/with the livestock instead of using body control. Many breeds/dogs will exhibit that in various degrees. You can't compare a Mal to a BC and the BC isn't the standard of all things good/desired in herding. Most people choose their breed because that is what they like and is the mental package that they want to live with and deal with. For me, the ultimate dog for anything and everything is a GSD. For a Mal person, it may be a Mal. None of us suffer from BC envy. As Geoff said, if I wanted a BC, I'd buy one, or I'd work the one hubby brought home. I've had one dog I bred show eye/stalk as a puppy like a BC--Maia. She would eye/stalk her littermates. As she grew up, it lessened. On stock she had awesome analysis and rate. She was also the first natural driving dog I worked--no natural circle. She would drop back and control the lead head. Was she effective? Not as much as I'd like especially if I needed a strong header in the pasture. To me, her sire was a much better dog that I could rely on in any situation and he developed her degree of analysis and eye as a much older dog--like age 7-8.

You need to take your pup out for an evaluation and start developing it on stock. That's the only way to know what it brings to the table.

T


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> *You seem to indicate that BC type of eye/stalk is necessary for a dog to have potential as an effective herding dog.* That's an incorrect assumption. Second, earlier BCs didn't have eye/stalk. That was bred in with sporting lines and primarily with trial dogs. You'll find some BCs with moderate eye or utilizing no more eye than any other breeds bred for sheep work. My bouvier has a lot of eye and stalk considering her breed--as much as some BCs. I'm working a corgi now that is 17 months old that once off with distance, she working with eye/stalk. My GSDs worked with eye. All eye is for me is mental control/communication of/with the livestock instead of using body control. Many breeds/dogs will exhibit that in various degrees. You can't compare a Mal to a BC and the BC isn't the standard of all things good/desired in herding. Most people choose their breed because that is what they like and is the mental package that they want to live with and deal with. For me, the ultimate dog for anything and everything is a GSD. For a Mal person, it may be a Mal. None of us suffer from BC envy. As Geoff said, if I wanted a BC, I'd buy one, or I'd work the one hubby brought home. I've had one dog I bred show eye/stalk as a puppy like a BC--Maia. She would eye/stalk her littermates. As she grew up, it lessened. On stock she had awesome analysis and rate. She was also the first natural driving dog I worked--no natural circle. She would drop back and control the lead head. Was she effective? Not as much as I'd like especially if I needed a strong header in the pasture. To me, her sire was a much better dog that I could rely on in any situation and he developed her degree of analysis and eye as a much older dog--like age 7-8.
> 
> You need to take your pup out for an evaluation and start developing it on stock. That's the only way to know what it brings to the table.
> 
> T


Incorrect, the question was simply 'do they' with no weight on either a negative or positive answer and pointing out that my mal shows no tendency to either.
Also I am not comparing the two breeds to look for BC in a mal, I am asking because the only experience I have of is BC and Welsh collies for sheep herding and even then mostly my missus' dads and other farm dogs round here, they show lots of 'stalk and eye'.
I havn't got a clue what I am looking for in all honesty, so funnily enough I am asking people who do. 
Because if I ask anyone round here they will say 'get a BC or a welsh' and that will be the end of that.
If I suggested a GSD they would probably roll about laughing on the floor. I personally don't understand why, but hey ho.
I thank you for your informative post. Keep em coming please.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Matt Vandart said:


> Incorrect, the question was simply 'do they' with no weight on either a negative or positive answer and pointing out that my mal shows no tendency to either.
> Also I am not comparing the two breeds to look for BC in a mal, I am asking because the only experience I have of is BC and Welsh collies for sheep herding and even then mostly my missus' dads and other farm dogs round here, they show lots of 'stalk and eye'.
> I havn't got a clue what I am looking for in all honesty, so funnily enough I am asking people who do.
> Because if I ask anyone round here they will say 'get a BC or a welsh' and that will be the end of that.
> ...


They laugh because they are a tad isolated in their knowledge of the original breed purpose for the German SHEPHERD Dog. But that's true everywhere. There is a lot of breed bias in favor of the eye/stalk dogs in herding. The different breeds were bred for different jobs. The old German shepherds would laugh at the idea of using a BC for the jobs the dogs did in Germany. Different regions had different needs, therefore, different jobs. You will not get any help from someone biased in favor of and only experienced with eye/stalk dogs that typically move off pressure. They have no idea what to do with something that is bred to come into pressure for control as opposed to moving away from it or never entering the pressure bubble in the first place. There are variances within a breed. I like for a dog to have certain instincts in regard to stock. Some have it and some don't and that's regardless of breed or parentage. Therefore, I test for what I want minimally before I bring the puppy home. No one can tell you whether your dog can be effective with training or not until it has been on stock a FEW times and put in a variety of situations as he matures. Raising a dog for farm work I'll know about age 2 3/4-- 3 1/2, a lambing season and an introduction to cattle work, what I have in the dog. Until then, he/she shows potential. My two 17-month-olds in training show great potential. One of them needs to be the real McCoy because Khira is entering the retirement phase.

Good luck with your pup please let us know how the stock introduction goes.
T


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Mals can herd? HAHAHAHAHAAHAHA
People up a tree maybe....:twisted:


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

lolz..........


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Mals can herd? HAHAHAHAHAAHAHA
> People up a tree maybe....:twisted:


I thought it was Mals can heard, like they have good hearing? ;-)


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

This one bloody well has, she can hear the fridge opening from the bottom of the yard 50meters away!

and she has fart radar ears Hahahahaha


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Mals are good as one thing only...*K-9 Motion Detectors*


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

I know quite a few good Border collies without lot of eye or stalk, they are quite plain workers but very effective. Some dogs show a lot of pressure eye if they are weak dogs. A dog needs to be able to use some eye in appropriate situations and not rely on it all the time. A good dog needs to be able to be taking in the bigger picture when mustering stock in large paddocks and not become too focussed on a few sheep. Quite a few stockmen I know would prefer less eye than too much, combined with other good working traits. 

Really what one wants is a dog that does the job that you need it for. A dog with a flashy style means nothing unless it can deliver the goods.

I have never seen a Malinois herding so cant really give any constructive information in that department.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Sara Waters said:


> Really what one wants is a dog that does the job that you need it for. A dog with a flashy style means nothing unless it can deliver the goods...


 Sara I have to agree. The reason I like working lines in anything and NOT show lines. When you clear "pretty" from the table, it boils down to form and function. NOTHING in my book beats a Border Collie for working livestock or goose control work! <off the soap box>


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> NOTHING in my book beats a Border Collie for working livestock or goose control work! <off the soap box>


You need to broaden your horizons and work the right GSD. Get a copy of von Stephanitz and take all of your GSDs out for some instinct testing and work. As for goose patrol---chase off geese from the golf courses or where ever??? Teach any dog a go out with some pressure/confidence and done. Someone on this forum was doing goose patrol with a Malinois--Geoff???


T


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> on this forum was doing goose patrol with a Malinois--Geoff??


Yes I haven't done it in 2 years now, was to busy competing. Going to go back at it this spring with my female Malinois. She is really good at it. My male I haven't really tried. If you can train a IPO or FR send away/en avant you can do goose control. Much easier than working livestock as for the most part it is just point and shoot.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Not as easy as just letting FLUFFY run a few flying rats away. 
Federally protected birds, so when FLUFFY rips into one, YOU will take the federal and state hit! =;
I saw a guy upstate several years ago do it with an Ausse on a 6'leash, real goose control that was. Looks more like going out on a walk and charging the mindless $55.00 an hour!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

When Fluffy rips into one that's a training issue not a breed issue. ;-)
T will tell you. My SchIII Thunder had a duck attack him when he put them in a corner. The crazy mofo just rushed him and latched onto his side. Not just fur but he had skin. Thunder just kept moving and finally shook the evil little shit off with hardly an extra glance. When a nasty, dog running goat tried to push him he just walked up to him slowly and the goat gave ground. 
Pressure is what it's all about not aggression.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> When Fluffy rips into one that's a training issue not a breed issue. ;-)
> T will tell you. My SchIII Thunder had a duck attack him when he put them in a corner. The crazy mofo just rushed him and latched onto his side. Not just fur but he had skin. Thunder just kept moving and finally shook the evil little shit off with hardly an extra glance. When a nasty, dog running goat tried to push him he just walked up to him slowly and the goat gave ground.
> Pressure is what it's all about not aggression.


 
Agreed and if you turn Fluffly loose without knowing his propensities, then you should whip out the check book. Thunder has that balance and SENSE I so crave in a dog. For him they were just pesky little birds--not a threat and not dinner. He has that herding dog desire for control without a prey trigger button. My other favorite comic moment was me yelling platz as he was going straight into a corner. As he was going down the stupid duck changed direction and he ended up downing on top of it totally oblivious or didn't care, staring at me and Bob waiting for the "yes." Luckily he had a soft down and duckie was fine. I have supplied ducks for trials many times and to date, the only one I've lost was to an advanced BC that bit the leg in two. But as Bob said, its all about Fluffy's training,not breed.


T


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

T...all the more reason NEVER to feed TOW waterfowl blend.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> T...all the more reason NEVER to feed TOW waterfowl blend.


 
I've said the the same about Lamb & Rice.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I've said the the same about Lamb & Rice.


 LOL:razz:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Howard, the foundation of Thunder's meal is raw chicken backs with a bit of beef and fish tossed in a few times a week. I haven't given him duck as of yet. :lol: ;-)


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

When I had Bantam chickens, all of my dogs knew not to touch them, even when they can to within striking range. Part of the pack, yet if something wasn't part (rabbit, cat, fox, woods rat) then there was a price to pay for that trespass...[-X


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Ok she's started trying to herd my other dogs.......lolz

Took her to show to two ancient farmers, they reckoned she had good potential.

On a related note these guys are a real anomaly to modern health thinking. One is 85 the other is 70 and they still work, they smoke like chimneys, each of them they love whiskey, they still look strong as ****, I'm gonna become a farmer.........


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Matt Vandart said:


> Ok she's started trying to herd my other dogs.......lolz
> 
> Took her to show to two ancient farmers, they reckoned she had good potential.
> 
> On a related note these guys are a real anomaly to modern health thinking. One is 85 the other is 70 and they still work, they smoke like chimneys, each of them they love whiskey, they still look strong as ****, I'm gonna become a farmer.........


What do you mean you took her to "show" and they "reckon she had potential?" Did they introduce her to stock? How?

T


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Took her there, they eyed her up and down, watched her on behaviour around other dogs and animals and shit. Came to their conclusions, said she had good potential and suggested I chuck her in with an experienced dog sometime. I have no idea how they came to that conclusion but I am assuming after 70 odd years in one case as sheep farmers they must have gone though a good number of dogs and can see something in her.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Matt Vandart said:


> Took her there, they eyed her up and down, watched her on behaviour around other dogs and animals and shit. Came to their conclusions, said she had good potential and suggested I chuck her in with an experienced dog sometime. I have no idea how they came to that conclusion but I am assuming after 70 odd years in one case as sheep farmers they must have gone though a good number of dogs and can see something in her.


What behavior and around what other animals. Never assume.


T


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Good advice.
They were pretty vague tbh, but mostly they were referring to her being game enough. Now game to me as a bull terrier dude means 'up for the fight' don't know if they were referring to that. Is that usefull in herding?


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Matt Vandart said:


> Good advice.
> They were pretty vague tbh, but mostly they were referring to her being game enough. Now game to me as a bull terrier dude means 'up for the fight' don't know if they were referring to that. Is that usefull in herding?


 
What animals did they introduce her to and how?

T


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

In it's truest term gameness is a loss of self preservation. Definitely NOT useful in herding!


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Oh dear, she's pretty high in that............


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

How did you determine that?


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

because she tried to take on a wolf hybrid up the working trials club and was quite serious about it 

spose that could just be stupidity, she's not the sharpest tool in the box


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Matt Vandart said:


> because she tried to take on a wolf hybrid up the working trials club and was quite serious about it
> 
> spose that could just be stupidity, she's not the sharpest tool in the box


Are you saying that a couple of good ol boy farmers after seeing a puppy go ra ra to an adult dog, said she was game enough to try on livestock with an older dog?

T


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

No, I am saying a couple of good old farmer boys that have been herding sheep for 120+ years between them said she had potential. I have no idea how they came to that conclusion, I don't even know if they are correct, but they have seen the dog in real life and they made their decision. They would have had no qualms about telling me otherwise, anyone that knows a welsh farmer will understand that straight away.

I'm sorry Terrasita but you're starting to grate now, so I am not interested anymore. Thank you for your help and everyone else involved in this thread.

I'll stick with teaching her to nail bad guys it is clear I know nothing about herding, so I will stick to what I know.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Matt Vandart said:


> No, I am saying a couple of good old farmer boys that have been herding sheep for 120+ years between them said she had potential. I have no idea how they came to that conclusion, I don't even know if they are correct, but they have seen the dog in real life and they made their decision. They would have had no qualms about telling me otherwise, anyone that knows a welsh farmer will understand that straight away.
> 
> I'm sorry Terrasita but you're starting to grate now, so I am not interested anymore. Thank you for your help and everyone else involved in this thread.
> 
> I'll stick with teaching her to nail bad guys it is clear I know nothing about herding, so I will stick to what I know.


Sorry to "grate" but I've been trying to figure out for a few posts now whether they introduced her to some type of livestock even outside of a fence and watched her response but understand if you don't know the basis for their decision because they didn't tell you. Good luck with the bite stuff.

T


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Matt Vandart said:


> because she tried to take on a wolf hybrid up the working trials club and was quite serious about it
> 
> spose that could just be stupidity, she's not the sharpest tool in the box



"Tried" is one of those shudda, coudda, wudda things. That's no different then a dog being declared a good man stopper simply because it raises hell at someone outside the fence or on the other side of the door. It also has absolutely nothing to do with herding.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Cool, I'm just recounting what they said, like I said above I do not agree or disagree with what they said I am merely relaying information.
I understand now what you are getting at Terrisita, they watched her around penned sheep in a yard, loose chickens/ducks on a long piece of rope, other dogs and for some reason penned horses which she barked at. I think she wanted to kill the chickens which is weird because she doesn't try and kill mine.
She does seem to have some leash reactivity.
I have no idea what they saw as I don't know much about this stuff. 
All I saw was a dog running round like a cockroach on speed, going here and there and stopping and starting.

Thanks for the good luck wishes for the bitestuff but I'll stick with my knowledge and experience and I'll save the luck for the herding if that's cool with you.

In reference to Bobs post, no this is not the case here, this dog is definitely a bit twp, she has already nailed a cattle dog that had a go at her and I had to pick her up by the harness which didn't stop her continuing to try and get at it. It's pissing me off to be honest as a dog reactive dog is no use to me for protection and as you probably know can be born out of dominance OR fear, hopefully it's the former. I'm also hoping it is something that I can desensitise out of her. I have taught her to break off engagement and come to front position (like when she is alert barking at them) but do have concerns about this as she will go straight back to the end of the leash and start up again when released.
She doesn't do it with my other dogs only dogs she doesn't know, which makes me worry it's fear based.


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