# Targeting issue



## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

I am having a weird targeting issue with one of my dobes.
On a sleeve she is going for the upper arm, she targets straight for a central target then hits the upper arm. Obviously this pisses off my decoy as it is only a half sleeve :-\" and I think he's gonna ditch us......#-o
She doesn't seem to have an issue with the equipment as I can kick it round and play tug with her with it and it's all cool, same with the decoy (obviously I don't kick him around the field, when the decoy plays tug and shit)
This is the same dobe that when she wins the sleeve under pressure she spits it out and goes back at the decoy.
She has had minimal suit work and I was careful to train targeting from an early age. She targets a wedge just fine.
If I put the sleeve on she hits it well and central.
What is going on?
Any suggestions?
She is not very advanced in any bitework as yet so I would like to sort this sooner rather than later.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Maybe she is biting the helper on purpose? Does he give a bigger reaction when the bites his arm than he does when the dog bites the sleeve?


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Lol,yes I hadn't thought of that.......thanks Chris.
Hmmm, if it is that, how to go about extinguishing it or teaching a better target?
I can't use an ecollar.
Forgot to say,this is on a fairly long bite.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Matt Vandart said:


> Lol,yes I hadn't thought of that.......thanks Chris.
> Hmmm, if it is that, how to go about extinguishing it or teaching a better target?
> I can't use an ecollar.
> Forgot to say,this is on a fairly long bite.




A lot depends on prior training, the dogs temperament and drive and helper skill. But I'll give you some basic ideas.

Use a full arm. Put dog on a nylon slip collar and long line. When she bites the wrong place the helper pulls up on the line and chokes her off. When she comes off you pull her back a few steps and yell her to bite again. The helper then tries to get her to bite the correct area. When she bites the correct area your helper gives the same reaction he gives when she bites him for real.

Or put plastic or cardboard on the sleeve in the area you don't want her to bite. Once again the helper needs to give no reaction when she bites the wrong place and a strong reaction when she bites correctly. 

These are just outlines. You may want to modify things to suit you situation.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Awesome, thanks Chris, I'll give it a go!


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Back tie. Teach it right and dont let her pick where to go so you have to correct it. Watch and see if she is trying not to stay facing the helper, not liking the frontal pressure. Does she play with him on the wedge?


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Is there a stick present when this happens?


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## Ted Summers (May 14, 2012)

Dave Colborn said:


> Back tie. Teach it right and dont let her pick where to go so you have to correct it. Watch and see if she is trying not to stay facing the helper, not liking the frontal pressure. Does she play with him on the wedge?


This plus adding a 'cover' made of milk jug or some sort of plastic over the area that is not to be targeted. The plastic feels funny in the mouth. We do this on forearms for IPO dogs crossing over to suit to leave the bicep open. If you have instagram and follow bushido K9 they posted about 4-5 pics today of their decoys doing exactly this.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Find a decoy that knows how to do a sleeve presentation 
or get one of the sleeve covers with the built in plastic guards


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

provide a video. then people can see with thier own eyes what is going on and can give their own analysis and wil have better knowledge base to help them try to provide more pointed helpful advice.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Dave-Thanks
James- No stick
Ted- Thanks
Joby- FAB


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

not sure what FAB means LOL..

I guess that means no. 

How many suit bites would you guess the dog had? where did you target dog on suit? Did dog develope a good prey attraction to the suit, or was the dog fairly serious and thinking he was attempting to bite the decoy? did problem start after using suit?

Is the dog clean otherwise in the bitework? what are the dogs intentions in the bite work would you guess when using the sleeve? would you say the dog is comfortable i the bite work?? how experienced is the dog in bite work training in general?
using the same sleeve as always, that previously had no problems with?
What does the decoy whos knows the dog say about why he might be doing this?? what are his ideas on working on the problem? is the decoy inexperienced?

are there any bite work videos of this paricular dog available?


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## Peter Cho (Apr 21, 2010)

In early stages of a young dog, they do not know where to bite to win. It is up to the helper to teach this WITHOUT creating too much conflict during the bite. If it starts shaking, that should tell you something.
Do not use half sleeve.
Post dog and set grips. This alone should fix problem if proper foundation was instilled.
If it gets a bad shallow bite or it targets way off, just pry it off with your stick. When it comes off, pressure and conflict goes up.....then create space with your stick work, which will allow dog to regrip and target with full grip. When grip is settled, immediately let dog win.
This is pretty advanced work, but it will solve your issue within a couple of sessions. 
In early stage, some dogs will grab anything. Leg, shoulder, stick. This is natural. It will continue to mis target only if the helper does not show weakness when the desired behaviour is achieved.
Until targeting and desired grips are set, the dog should not be worked without a post unless with very good training helper. 
Personally, I do not use the sleeve for my dog. Basically, you are then teaching it that a sleeve is a toy. When the dog outs on you, do u think the conflict is as high as it is on a confrontational helper? I do not think so. Pavlov says, repeat this 1000x and you get a dog that will beg for the sleeve. 
In the end, it is the HELPER's job (and training director) not your to set and target grips. You can help by playing with him correctly, but in the end, that is what training helpers role is. IMO


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Peter, if he had a helper that is as good as you describe he probably would not be having this problem in the first place.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Peter Cho (Apr 21, 2010)

Christopher Smith said:


> Peter, if he had a helper that is as good as you describe he probably would not be having this problem in the first place.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


LOL! You are right, of course.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Quick answers cos I gotta go out:

FAB: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8uWuSr2PX4

Fk knows how experienced the Decoy is, he is a friend of a friend, who's number I was given when my previously reliable decoy got married and the thumb descended.........ROFL

I am not massively experienced with sleeve, I have always favoured and used suits.
Dog has had mostly tug, wedge and old sleeve targetting bites (just held,no arm in it during foundation)
Maybe 2 sessions on a suit with old decoy and maybe 15 bites on sleeve with old decoy,maybe 1/4 under pressure.
No stick.
New decoy has never used a suit only sleeves.
Maybe 20 bites on sleeve with me or the bird.
Maybe 10 bites with new decoy the vast majority of which were miss-targetted ****ups, getting worse not better.
My OH rekons he dogs neck on the second/third bite and thats when it started I'm not sure if I noticed or remember properly.

Bites on suit have been shoulder/bicep presentation and rear shoulder/ Lats.

Bird is nagging we have to go to a bbq,will add more laters


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

My OH rekons he JAMMED the dogs neck on the second/third bite and thats when it started I'm not sure if I noticed or remember properly.

So much for needing to rush to a bbq,birds not even ready yet.

Anyway,no Bitework vids as tbh there has been nothing worth videoing.....not expecting much from either of my dobes in the long run, nothing serious anyway.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Matt,

Sounds like you're doing more harm then good with your current "decoy"? Find someone with experience that knows what they're doing. A decoy not a bite giver. The old saying is 
"no training is better then bad training"


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

and the other saying that it's the decoy or victim that trains the dog.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Peter,thanks.
Chris, you're exactly correct.
Sarah I agree entirely, I think this decoy is a kook.
My problem is finding a good decoy,there are not many In this country and they are all far away.
I have been given another name for a guy that is not too far away that breeds and trains KNPV mals apparently,I think I shall seek him out, not sure how (if) he will work with dobes though,lol.


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