# Police dog handlers want to be paid when dogs are off-duty



## Jeff Wright (Mar 10, 2011)

http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/...-dogs-are-off-duty.html#.T2Em3zB5QsU.facebook

*Only In Chicago.......*

UFB


Police dog handlers want to be paid when dogs are off-duty


By Stefano Esposito

Staff Reporter

[email protected]

Last Modified: Mar 14, 2012 02:19AM
“Lika,” a Belgian Malinois police dog, has been known to bite so hard, she’s broken teeth, and when she hears thunder, she sometimes attacks the windows because she thinks it’s gunfire.

Police dogs are high maintenance, and their human handlers should be paid to take care of them even when the dogs are off-duty, says Lika’s owner, Cook County sheriff’s police officer Tim Gorniak.

Gorniak is part of a lawsuit filed this week in Cook County seeking back pay from the Cook County Sheriff’s Department.

In the suit, the Illinois Department of Labor claims Cook County owes its canine police officers a total of about $530,000 in back pay for the time the officers spent caring for their assigned dogs when not on the job — between January 2007 and July 2011. In the filing, the labor department alleges the canine handlers had no choice but to care for the dogs at home and so should have been paid overtime.

Frank Bilecki, a sheriff’s department spokesman, said the canine handlers received more than adequate compensation. “Every day, these individuals are paid to leave an hour early to compensate them for taking care of the dog’s needs,” Bilecki said. “Every day, they are paid for their lunch. Throughout the day, the dog needs to eat, drink and be walked — that all occurs on paid county time as well.”

But Gorniak, who is now back on police patrol and his dog is retired, said a police dog’s needs far exceed those of an ordinary pet.

“The things that make them a good [police] dog, make them a horrible house dog,” Gorniak said.

“Everything from food . . . working with the dog, medication, cleaning up after it, playing with the dog,” Gorniak said. “These are high-energy dogs — you have to work them out.”


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

"Only In Chicago......."

Not true. In fact, it surprises me that Chicago is not in compliance with the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA). It has long been the policy of the FLSA, officer that keep their dogs at their places or residence, must be compensated for their time. The way handlers are compensated is not specifically stated, only that they must be compensated. I'm surprised department of that size was caught with their pants down. The handlers will win if it goes to court. 

DFrost


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## Jeff Wright (Mar 10, 2011)

What is the Hourly wage of a Chicago Cop(Benefits Included)?
A Hour a day probably adds up to a 100-200 bucks a week?
Plus additional time during the day for routine care?
Seems pretty dang fair to me.


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

On one level I can understand how extra compensation should be provided for K-9 officers Mr. Frost.

On the other hand though, if one doesn't just enjoy and is willing to adjust ones life style for the admitly dubious pleasure of living with a dog, why are they in the K-9 corps to begin with?


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Randy Allen said:


> On one level I can understand how extra compensation should be provided for K-9 officers Mr. Frost.
> 
> On the other hand though, if one doesn't just enjoy and is willing to adjust ones life style for the admitly dubious pleasure of living with a dog, why are they in the K-9 corps to begin with?


Most handlers are in the job because they enjoy it. Does that mean they shouldn't be fairly compensated? Our handlers get one-hour a day. All training time, veterinarian appointments etc, is on-duty time. The handler is just being compensated for caring for the dog when he is not working. That includes holidays, days off, when he is on sick leave or annual leave. The exception is; for prolonged sick leave the dog must be boarded. The handler can also board the dog if he is on annual leave and leaving town. Some do, some don't. The point is, would it be fair to not compensate the handler just because he enjoys his job? Does anyone really believe it only takes an hour to care for the dog, day-to-day. Plus, in our situation anyway, the dog is State property.

DFrost


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

Not saying they shouldn't be compensated at all. Nor that it takes x amount of hours. But realistically what should be the evaluation? 
Do you get extra because you happen to get a pain in the ass dog? Or should you get less because you happen to get one of those dream animals?

Seems to me though at some level one buys into the general accepted down sides of having a dog at hand all the time.

PS.
I write this as my youngest dog is shredding the morning paper because he hasn't had enough today.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Randy Allen said:


> PS.
> I write this as my youngest dog is shredding the morning paper because he hasn't had enough today.


how much paper does he need in a day???



It says they get paid lunch and 1 hour of pay, and they leave work 1 hour early...which equals fulltime...they want overtime it seems...

it seems that one could most likely get almost all the work done while on duty...

maybe one feeding and let out a couple times after work...if he has a kennel, then cleaning the kennel, seems like that is about it.

to say that Chicago public workers are mistreated is the biggest joke I have heard yet....LOL....after living in the area for 35 yrs or so...


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

"Do you get extra because you happen to get a pain in the ass dog?"

No. You get extra because it's the law. The law states if a handler keeps a department dog at his residence, he must be compensated. My handlers with PITA dogs get the same as those with the meek and mild. I'm not arguing whether or not it the right thing. I'm only stating the law says a person must be compensated for job related duties. Among those job related duties are the care and maintenance of a department owned animal. 

http://www.flsa.com/police.html and http://www.fop.net/programs/research/flsak9.pdf

DFrost


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Randy Allen said:


> On one level I can understand how extra compensation should be provided ..... On the other hand though, if one doesn't just enjoy and is willing to adjust ones life style for the admitly dubious pleasure of living with a dog, why are they in the K-9 corps to begin with?



Well, I do a couple of jobs, including training dogs, and my lifestyle has been adjusted accordingly because I enjoy these jobs (mostly).

Still, I do get paid. For every hour, ideally. :lol:


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Well, I do a couple of jobs, including training dogs, and my lifestyle has been adjusted accordingly because I enjoy these jobs (mostly).
> 
> Still, I do get paid. For every hour, ideally. :lol:


I enjoy my job a great deal. I mean come on, I get paid for training dogs. Ok, I've been shot at a few times, stabbed once, scared more times than I can count and now in the twilight of my career, all I do is train dogs. I still enjoy it a great deal. BUT - I ain't doin' it for free. ha ha

DFrost


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Originally Posted by Randy Allen 
_PS. I write this as my youngest dog is shredding the morning paper because he hasn't had enough today._



Joby Becker said:


> how much paper does he need in a day???...



Inquiring minds want to know. :lol: :lol:


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

Whoa whoa, officer Frost.
I never suggested the K-9 shouldn't get compensation only questioning about what is fair.
Everyone gives up something to do whatever their chosen field happens to be.
If the contact was signed off on by all parties, it should honored.


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

How much news paper does Strider need in a day? LOL

It depends on how much energy I can take out him during the day.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

If I am reading this correctly they get a paid lunch, and get paid for 1 hour per day that they are not working. That does seem like decent compensation to me. 

this quote got my goat...

*“The things that make them a good [police] dog, make them a horrible house dog,” Gorniak said.

“Everything from food . . . working with the dog, medication, cleaning up after it, playing with the dog,” Gorniak said. “These are high-energy dogs — you have to work them out.”*

Anyone taking on a dog should know that you are gonna have to play with him. 

I would think and hour of play is enough time tire him out for the evening after work, if you did not want to take up any of your additional personal time to do so...

Dont departments cover food and medication needs? I would think they would, and if they don't they should..that I agree with.. Mimimum amount of training time should be compensated as well..

How long does it take to clean up after 1 dog? 5-10 seconds a few times a day if bagging it.. 10 minutes tops to clean a kennel out real good..how long to feed the dog in a day...a couple seconds....

I get that a lunch is a lunch...and one may want to not do anything work associated on lunch...that is fine...

So if the guy gets a paid lunch, doesnt do anything with the dog for that lunch period and leaves work an hour early and gets paid for it...that is 2 hours worth of pay per day for not doing work.

They also are entitled to get paid for transporting the dog to work, when they are driving to work anyway? how long does it take to load a dog in the car to get to work? a minute?

2 hours per day seems to me like plenty of time to take care of the dog. when you can let it out and most likely do a few other things while on duty... 1/2 hour before work...1.5 after work, if needed...

Is this unrealistic...am I just a jerk? I am gonna ask the guys up here what they get...
now that the dog is retired, should he get compensated if they decide to keep the dog as well? because he is a difficult pet to have, do the windows get paid for if they are broke, cause the dog is being allowed to attack the window when it thunders, because the dog thinks it is "gunfire"??? wtf?


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

David Frost said:


> I enjoy my job a great deal. I mean come on, I get paid for training dogs. Ok, I've been shot at a few times, stabbed once, scared more times than I can count and now in the twilight of my career, all I do is train dogs. I still enjoy it a great deal. BUT - I ain't doin' it for free. ha ha
> 
> DFrost



I think one of the things people tend not to understand is that 
no matter how much fun it is, when you have to do it every day
and you have production expectations, in this case dogs ready to
go at the end of the course, it is work.

You can't take a few weeks off in the winter, and you can't skip
a week like you can in a hobby. Sometimes people seem to get
burned out and actually lose the pleasure in the hobby.

David, just out of curiosity, none of my business, but do you keep
a personal dog at home, or by this time do you get enough at work?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

David keeps a "pushman" to while away his free hours Jim. Nothing more relaxing than pushing a scooter home.....or maybe it is running now. :grin:


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Jim, I have a dog, Roger, that was dumped in my yard over 2 years ago as a puppy. At first I tried to find him a home. I really didn't want another dog around the house after I had my retired cadaver dog, Jack, euthanized. I just couldn't find him the right home, so I guess he lives here now, although I tell everyone he's not mine. I just pay the vet bills, give him his monthly hw prevtative, the occasional Frontline and a place to sleep at night. ha ha.

I no longer have an issued dog. I do however have two Cushman's. A 1959 Pacemaker and a 1955 Eagle. The '59 is running, the '55 is still a work in progress.



DFrost


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

David Frost said:


> I enjoy my job a great deal. I mean come on, I get paid for training dogs. Ok, I've been shot at a few times, stabbed once, scared more times than I can count and now in the twilight of my career, all I do is train dogs. I still enjoy it a great deal. BUT - I ain't doin' it for free. ha ha
> 
> DFrost


Good for you, David. I am expected to provide free medical services to members of the populace who can't afford their luxury...because gee, don't I *love* animals? :smile:


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

We get the first, and last half hour of our shift to take care of the dog. On our days off we get 1 hour of overtime per day off for K9 home care.

Randy, I can see you questioning why someone should get paid "extra" for doing something they love but, in fact it is not "extra" pay. Matter of fact...should these dogs be kenneled at a commercial dog boarding business it would cost the agency much more money. There is also the high likelyhood of dogs contracting some sort of disease in these kennels. Not to mention the possible "accidental" bite, and less of a bond between handler and dog.

So, lets not talk about actual "work" with the dog at home. Let's talk about hardly ever being able to relax even in your own home. The dog is ALWAYS being thought of. If it barks, you check things out. If you have visitors, you have to go through the same ol "don't mess with the dog" line. You have to constantly look in on your childrens' friends to make sure they don't get near the dog. You constantly have to know where the dog is at all times. You can't trust other family members to be responsible for YOUR dog like you could with a family pet because should something unfortunate happen it's your ass, and possibly your job.

I never once kenneled any of my dogs. I took them on every family vacation. Traveling with a dog kinda limits the things you can do at times but that's the choice I made. Being out of state with your working dog can be a little unnerving and you constantly have to keep tabs on him...as usual. Not much of a real vacation.

Now....as stressful as I make it sound above (and it can be) there is one huge benefit...protection. I never worried about intruders getting to my family when I was away out of state or at seminars etc. It is a good feeling for sure.

So..the hour of OT we get per day off isn't really enough but, some agencies just meet FSLA while other agencies like ours exceed it. Some would tell me "quit your bitchin"...I ain't bitchin, I'm just sayin. There's more to it than feeding the dog everyday.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

departments that I know off get anywhere between a 1/2 to a hour per day no matter if on duty or not, plus most training here is done on weds for 12 hour shift, the guys that are on duty are at training and only go to a call if called out, the guys that are off duty get paid that time in either comp time or pay depending on the agency to come back in for mandatory training to meet standard hours of training. Thats pretty much industry standards across the board to be compensated one way or another as a K9 handler.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Yes you should be paid for your time. What I don’t understand about stuff like what the OP posted is they knew want they were signing up for when they signed up. It’s likely some scum lawyer got a hold of the right handler and got the handler to agree to “free” money that he has been screwed out of all these years. Then everyone else just jumps on the wagon. Yes having a dog is additional work than not. If you don’t like the deal don’t sign up for it. It’s that simple. From what everyone is saying the amount of paid time allocated for the dog seems fair to me? But if a grown adult who has the opportunity to be a handler doesn’t think it’s fair, then don’t do it. I wouldn’t think anyone is forced to be a handler?
So I don’t understand why they would win in court. But I wouldn’t be surprised if they did. I mean once OJ got off in court all bets are off. 

This is the job, this is what you are going to be paid for the job, this is the amount of time you get paid to take care of the dog, yes it goes home with you, you can now take the job or leave it? Am I missing something? And this aint dumping on cops there is only like a million things like this I don’t get. 
It’s like the people that buy a house by the airport than complain about the planes flying over them?


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

First, I get the legal argument of they are taking care of the dog, and thus that is a duty that is related to thier job. You can argue that all day long. And I do not have a "legal" argument to it.

Second, At some point...There is a finacial burden that is placed upon the departments, and tax payers if they should get this pay. Now, being a man of service... I understand what it is to serve. It's staying late, coming in early, leaving my family for weeks at a time, taking my work home with me...and at times emotional upset from executing cases that have more than graphic parts to them. But I am a man of service. A job that I took, because I wanted to serve. I am sorry to say, a person who joins a service organization and starts demanding resources, like money, that they know will put a huge burden on the organization and the people they serve and have the impeccable timing of doing it when the money is already thin.....know nothing about service. Just my personal feeling. So legally they may have ground, ethically... It's a punk ass bitch move. Here's another Idea... Departments should either tell them to hand over the leash, or get back to ****ing work. Because I am sure there is someone waiting for the job.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

David Frost said:


> "Only In Chicago......."
> 
> Not true. In fact, it surprises me that Chicago is not in compliance with the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA). It has long been the policy of the FLSA, officer that keep their dogs at their places or residence, must be compensated for their time. The way handlers are compensated is not specifically stated, only that they must be compensated. I'm surprised department of that size was caught with their pants down. The handlers will win if it goes to court.
> 
> DFrost


 laws, and unions are under attack here.... All unions!!! Laws and signed agreements mean nothing anymore!


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Minimum wage and free health care for ALL!


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

James Downey said:


> But I am a man of service. A job that I took, because I wanted to serve. I am sorry to say, a person who joins a service organization and starts demanding resources, like money, that they know will put a huge burden on the organization and the people they serve and have the impeccable timing of doing it when the money is already thin.....know nothing about service. Just my personal feeling. So legally they may have ground, ethically... It's a punk ass bitch move. Here's another Idea... Departments should either tell them to hand over the leash, or get back to ****ing work. Because I am sure there is someone waiting for the job.


James, you owe me a new pair of prescription glasses, food, and housing, punk ass bitch!!!!
Theory is great and I think you shouldn't get paid a dime! How bout that! You volunteered,,,, we shouldn't owe you a dime !!! Just a thanks! Thanks!!!


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

James, Instead of degrading the little man you may want to start at congress and why they default on paying into social security! What was your quote on serving the public??? 
Please!!!! I work with heroes that **** everyone else to promote themselves in the name of "SERVICE", it's pitiful!!!! Give that shit up!!!i don't know your true experience but I work with a Wounded navy Seal who is less attempting to brag about their service than you!


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Lastly, I figured the Police were trying to make a living and not doing "favors" to society for their paycheck! Maybe your management mentality of doing "favors" has obstructed your view that some people "EARN" their money!


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

1hr/day is fair compensation i think?


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

If they are working a 7 hour day instead of an 8 hour day I don't think they will get very far with their FLSA suit.

Compensation for at home care from a $ perspective does not have to be at the officer's hourly or overtime rate. It's the "fair rate" for care of the dog. Ours use to be $6 a day.

When I was accepted into our K9 program I was told that I could have the $6 a day OR the take home car but not both. I took the car. Back then the car could be looked at as compensation.

I got into K9 because I wanted to. Most handlers would give up compensation if needed... many don't go after any for sake of the program. FLSA has ended many k9 programs all over the US.

For the past 9 years I have walked, fed, poop scooped, and played with my dog for nothing. Countless vet visits, trips to the car wash, scheduled maintanance.... all on my own time. Why?? because I love my program and don't want to see it suffer. I can tell you to the penny how much K9 stuff I have not been reimbursed for... but I do write it all off on my taxes!


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Matt, I agree with you. "In the day" compensation was the fact that we had a dog and others didn't. As a program manager however, I would be remiss in my duties if I didn't protect the State from potential liability. It is my job to ensure the admin knows about such requirements.

DFrost


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

James Downey said:


> First, I get the legal argument of they are taking care of the dog, and thus that is a duty that is related to thier job. You can argue that all day long. And I do not have a "legal" argument to it.
> 
> Second, At some point...There is a finacial burden that is placed upon the departments, and tax payers if they should get this pay. Now, being a man of service... I understand what it is to serve. It's staying late, coming in early, leaving my family for weeks at a time, taking my work home with me...and at times emotional upset from executing cases that have more than graphic parts to them. But I am a man of service. A job that I took, because I wanted to serve. I am sorry to say, a person who joins a service organization and starts demanding resources, like money, that they know will put a huge burden on the organization and the people they serve and have the impeccable timing of doing it when the money is already thin.....know nothing about service. Just my personal feeling. So legally they may have ground, ethically... It's a punk ass bitch move. Here's another Idea... Departments should either tell them to hand over the leash, or get back to ****ing work. Because I am sure there is someone waiting for the job.


So because I've been in a "service organization" most of my adult life, I should not expect to be fairly compensated. If I do expect fair compensation I'm a punk ass bitch. Hmm. Is the bullet resistant vest too much for taxpayers to bear. We didn't always have those. Glocks cost a lot more than an a .38 revolver, there is a pretty good savings. We could do away with the annual weapons qualification, imagine 1,000 officers, 100 rounds, twice a year. That gets expensive. If they want to be a police officer, they should have to do what volunteer fire departments do, use their own vehicle. They can put lights and sirens, at their expense of course. Imagine how much cutting a fleet of vehicle would save in year. Yeah talk to me about service. 

DFrost


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

There is a big difference from a paid job and a volunteered service. I think for the most part our volunteer organizations are paid pretty well, considering they are volunteer


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

well the really sad part of the whole deal is that cops including the k9 guys are paid a pathetic wage to start with considering the shit job. I understand a lot of the guys really enjoy the dogs (I train with a few of them). But as stated these dogs are a freaking workout and a PITA a LOT and do require a lot more attention and work than a typical pet type dog. They should be compensated well for it.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Matthew Grubb said:


> I got into K9 because I wanted to. Most handlers would give up compensation if needed... many don't go after any for sake of the program. FLSA has ended many k9 programs all over the US.


 This is the very reason that BCSO deputy, Raymond Warner lost his life in 1996 and another deputy seriously shot up. 

You see...back in about 1994-95 the Brevard County Sheriffs K9 handler's were attempting to get their FSLA back pay that Sheriff Jake Miller refused to pay. I beleive the handlers won and as a result, Sheriff Miller decided to totally get rid of the K9 unit, in retaliation most believe. Along comes Deputy Warner to a burglary in progress at a school. He has no K9 to search the building. The bad guy ambushed Deputy Warner and took his gun, then murdered the deputy with his own firearm. A backup deputy responds and is shot with Deputy Warner's pistol but the backup stays alive and cancels the burglars' contract. The funeral is huge and hard questions are asked. "Why was there no K9!?" It's because the Sheriff got his panties in a wad and a Deputy is murdered as a result and another critically wounded. Needless to say, that Sheriff was not elected and his former positive reputation is forever tarnished.

RIP Deputy Warner.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Brian Anderson said:


> well the really sad part of the whole deal is that cops including the k9 guys are paid a pathetic wage to start with considering the shit job. I understand a lot of the guys really enjoy the dogs (I train with a few of them). But as stated these dogs are a freaking workout and a PITA a LOT and do require a lot more attention and work than a typical pet type dog. They should be compensated well for it.


Starting pay in this region of SC is 13.83 to 14.90 ( thats a bachelors degree and former experience ), I highly doubt most become FF, LEO, EMS for the pay. Not pointing finger at you Brian just putting it in light for all, Oh yea landscapers around here start at around the same with 1 -3 years experience, so for the same amount of money you got to deal with scum, get shot at, worry about getting stuck with a needle with god knows what on it, catch TB or some other nasty ass crap, get into fights, etc......... for same pay to go cut my grass. Oh garbage men start at 15 a hour, makes sense right NOT.

Oh and right noe theres a SC HWY officer laid up in a hospital here with burns and alot of internal injuries that has daughters and a wife, that car flip and started burning with him in it into a ditch trying to stop some snot nose punk on a bike that decided he was going to run, hes been on the job for about 6 years so hes probally just breaking 15 bucks a hour, sounds fair NOT. They asked why he chased, he said if we dont then everyone will run from the police.

Folks you got no room to talk if you havent done it, thats all I am saying.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

It sounds like the Plaintiff was fine with the K9 assignment pay arrangement until he went back on Patrol? Then he wants back pay?
With all the shyster lawyers the odds are better then the lottery :-(

"But Gorniak, who is now back on police patrol and his dog is retired, said a police dog’s needs far exceed those of an ordinary pet."


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## sam wilks (May 3, 2009)

This is crazy. This type of thing really pisses me off! I work for corrections right now and have been trying for years to become a cop. It is so irritating to listen to cops bitching about how they should be compensated for everything they do that is the least bit extra, especially when there are thousands of people like myself who would do their job for half the price! It seems there are a lot of k9 handlers who have problems with their dogs in training and I guarantee attitudes like this are at least part of that problem! These same officers that are suing for all this money will also be the ones bitching when they dont have a k9 unit anymore. Bottom line, if an officer doesnt agree with how they will be compensated then they shouldn't sign up for the job. Money is a factor for some handlers who really dont even care about being on the k9 unit they are just looking for some extra pay till their next promotion!


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

sam wilks said:


> This is crazy. This type of thing really pisses me off! I work for corrections right now and have been trying for years to become a cop.


 It aint all that!



> It is so irritating to listen to cops bitching about how they should be compensated for everything they do that is the least bit extra, especially when there are thousands of people like myself who would do their job for half the price!


 About the 5 year mark your enthusiasm and gratuitous ways go to shit and you realize that the low pay don't make up for all the shit and stress you have to deal with. I love newbie cops:roll: Reminds me of the movie with Sean Penn where the story of the old bull tells the young bull not to RUN up the hill and f*** one cow when you can WALK up the hill and F*** em all.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Sam Wilks says: " It is so irritating to listen to cops bitching about how they should be compensated for everything they do that is the least bit extra"

So is it your position K9 Officers and administrations should ignore the law? If so, are there other laws we should ignore because we may not agree with them? Remember, a K9 officer is still an officer. He has to do what every other officer has to do in addition to taking care of a dog. Agree or disagree it's the law. An administration that ignores the law is liable. In fact, there is circumstances, where members of an administration, knowlingly violating a law could be help personally responsible. If you disagree with the law that's one thing. But saying that handlers that want to get paid for what they do are somehow less of an officer or don't appreciate what they have is not being fair. Are their K9 officers that aren't worth the time to train them, I would imagine so. Just like I'm certain there are Corrections Officers that aren't worth the time to train them as well. My position is; it's the law. It's my responsibility to ensure the adminstration is aware of and in compliance. An administration that ignores the law does so at its' own peril. 

DFrost


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Howard Knauf said:


> About the 5 year mark your enthusiasm and gratuitous ways go to shit and you realize that the low pay don't make up for all the shit and stress you have to deal with. I love newbie cops:roll: Reminds me of the movie with Sean Penn where the story of the old bull tells the young bull not to RUN up the hill and f*** one cow when you can WALK up the hill and F*** em all.


Ahh yes, the good guy always wins. The bad guy always pays and justice prevails. 

chuckle chuckle.


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

Matthew Grubb said:


> If they are working a 7 hour day instead of an 8 hour day I don't think they will get very far with their FLSA suit.
> 
> Compensation for at home care from a $ perspective does not have to be at the officer's hourly or overtime rate. It's the "fair rate" for care of the dog. Ours use to be $6 a day.
> 
> ...


"FLSA has ended many k9 programs all over the US."

Yup. I have seen it happen. My brother in law is an officer in a department that just shut down their k9 unit after being in existence for, idk 60 - 70yrs or so? The dept. just could no longer afford to keep the unit on. The dept had been considering letting the k9 unit go for quite some time. The officers didn't bend during negotiation or legislation or whatever its called and so bye, bye k9 unit. Its a little disappointing. You'd think it was a sense of pride and that they would try and minimize cost to the dept. by seeing where they could compromise and keep the unit going, but nope. Nothing.

I do understand that administrations have to follow laws, but is there nothing the officers can take on that will lessen the burden on the dept./administration in that regard without breaking the laws? I'd just like to know. Is there nothing that can be done?


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

Zakia Days said:


> "FLSA has ended many k9 programs all over the US."
> 
> Yup. I have seen it happen. My brother in law is an officer in a department that just shut down their k9 unit after being in existence for, idk 60 - 70yrs or so? The dept. just could no longer afford to keep the unit on. The dept had been considering letting the k9 unit go for quite some time. The officers didn't bend during negotiation or legislation or whatever its called and so bye, bye k9 unit. Its a little disappointing. You'd think it was a sense of pride and that they would try and minimize cost to the dept. by seeing where they could compromise and keep the unit going, but nope. Nothing.



At the end of the day it is the responsibility of the police administration to provide the 
tax payers with the best possible protection as economically as possible.

If they add it up and a canine unit is not seen to be cost effective given the nature
of applicable law and labor agreements, then it should be shut down. That is how
the system is supposed to work. "Cost effective" at some point becomes a matter
of judgement and opinion, and it would seem to me that in the interests of public
service and officer security the police bargaining body and the administrative decision
making body should seek out a cost effective solution as fair as possible to the officer
on the street and the tax payer.

We are living in hard times, lots of people have to put in 50 or 60 hours for 40
hours pay because there are people waiting in line for their job. Not saying it
is right, but that is the way it is. Eventually the same economic pressure will
cut into salary and benefits in the public sector as it has in the private sector.

It is to the benefit of everybody to do this as rationally and honestly as possible.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I've seen it happen as well. I question a department that can't support a unit properly. Perhaps it is better off without one. IT's been my experience that departments that cut a program, just because of expenses are lacking in other areas such as equipment, training etc. If the dogs were productive, they (the deparment) would have found a way to keep them. In this day of diminishing budgets, it is the program that doesn't produce that will be cut first. 



DFrost


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## sam wilks (May 3, 2009)

Howard, Ill trade you jobs then!:mrgreen:

David, Im not saying to ignore the law, but I've never seen a job posting for any law enforcement position that doesn't clearly describe salary and responsibilities. This means that the officers knew what the pay was before they took the position and Im sure they spoke with other k9 officers to see what they were getting into. Im not saying that it makes them less of an officer. I just think that k9 is a position that could be filled with an officer who does not mind spending a little of his extra time to be in that position and do well at it. Our swat team has a minimum standard of 86 percent on every test we take. So that means I could shoot an 86 every time I go to the range and stay on the team. I shoot on my own time and spend my own money to do so. That way I get higher scores. Does that mean, I should turn in a bill to get compensated for that? I dont think so. I think if the k9 officers dont feel like they are being treated fair, why not move to a different position and allow someone else who doesn't mind spending a little of their own time on the dog. They have the added benefit of having a dog to protect their home. There are people thats spend a lot of money on home protection dogs. I know a few k9 officers that spend there own money on equipment, seminars and other things in order to better themselves and their dogs. They dont complain about it. I think that should be the attitude of more handlers.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Jim Engel said:


> We are living in hard times, lots of people have to put in 50 or 60 hours for 40
> hours pay because there are people waiting in line for their job. Not saying it
> is right, but that is the way it is. Eventually the same economic pressure will
> cut into salary and benefits in the public sector as it has in the private sector.
> ...


Not disagreeing at all. Just don't make it seem like the economic pressures haven't already cut into salary and benefits in the public sector. We are getting our first raise in 3 years, yet our insurance has increased yearly over that past 3 years. There are less people doing the same job as layoffs and non-hiring practices have been in place for 4 years. I'm thankful for having a job and I feel I'm compensated fairly. Our department has been streamlined and the functions that were working still work. Those that weren't, aren't. Like you say, that is the way it should be. I pride myself in being a good steward of the program I work within. We are 15 dogs smaller than 5 years ago, but working just as hard. I was asked how many explosives detectors do we need. We have 10. A fair question I thought, but wasn't sure how to answer it. My answer was: Colonel, as we sit here right now, this very minute
we probably have 7 too many. Your phone could ring in the next minute and twice as many as we do have won't be enough. 

DFrost


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

David Frost said:


> Not disagreeing at all. Just don't make it seem like the economic pressures haven't already cut into salary and benefits in the public sector. We are getting our first raise in 3 years, yet our insurance has increased yearly over that past 3 years. There are less people doing the same job as layoffs and non-hiring practices have been in place for 4 years. I'm thankful for having a job and I feel I'm compensated fairly. Our department has been streamlined and the functions that were working still work. Those that weren't, aren't. Like you say, that is the way it should be. I pride myself in being a good steward of the program I work within. We are 15 dogs smaller than 5 years ago, but working just as hard. I was asked how many explosives detectors do we need. We have 10. A fair question I thought, but wasn't sure how to answer it. My answer was: Colonel, as we sit here right now, this very minute
> we probably have 7 too many. Your phone could ring in the next minute and twice as many as we do have won't be enough.
> 
> DFrost


Yes, David, I retract the "eventually." Hard times are here now for people
in all walks of life.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

I"m all for Police negotiating the best pay and benefits they can (and the tax base will support) Just don't come back after the fact looking for back pay when you're not on the job anymore.


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## Eric Read (Aug 14, 2006)

You know what, a group of any of us, could go to anybody's job site and tell you everything you're doing wrong and exactly how much you should be paid. Trust me, everyone has an opinion on what everyone else should do and just what others should be compensated for. They know exactly what you do at work everyday, they know exactly how well or poorly you do it and exactly why. They can do all of this while never setting foot outside of their perfect little circle.

They know exactly how to be a doctor, though the've never been to med school or taken any class beyond intro to biology, they can tell you why your mechanic sucks though they don't have a clue how to operate an internal combustion engine other than to put gas in and turn the key, they know why contractors suck, road building takes so long, they know everything there is to know about being a teacher, a firefighter, pro football player, college dean, attorney, policeman etc, yet they've never spent a day in any capacity related to anything involved with any of those professions. 

It's why they also know that policeman should make what they say they should and their jobs are exactly how they think they are.

OR maybe people could start to focus on themselves a bit more. Realize everybody has shit they don't want to deal with at work. Everybody makes sacrafices and gets benefits from the choices they make. They should quit being an expert on everyone else and maybe a bit more of an expert on themselves.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Eric Read said:


> .... everyone has an opinion on what everyone else should do and just what others should be compensated for. They know exactly what you do at work everyday, they know exactly how well or poorly you do it and exactly why. .... They know exactly how to be a doctor, though the've never been to med school or taken any class beyond intro to biology, they can tell you why your mechanic sucks though they don't have a clue how to operate an internal combustion engine other than to put gas in and turn the key, they know why contractors suck, road building takes so long, they know everything there is to know about being a teacher, a firefighter, pro football player, college dean, attorney, policeman ... they also know that policeman should make what they say they should and their jobs are exactly how they think they are.



Nicely put. LE and veterinarians are certainly way up there on the list of professions that we all know exactly how they should be conducted and compensated -- we're just born with that knowledge, in great detail, and it's both certain and righteous. :lol:


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

sam wilks said:


> Howard, Ill trade you jobs then!:mrgreen:
> .



Be careful what you wish for. Anyway....I have no desire to be in corrections. Can't pay me enough.


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## Rick Cadez Jr. (Dec 1, 2009)

sam wilks said:


> Howard, Ill trade you jobs then!:mrgreen:
> 
> David, Im not saying to ignore the law, but I've never seen a job posting for any law enforcement position that doesn't clearly describe salary and responsibilities. This means that the officers knew what the pay was before they took the position and Im sure they spoke with other k9 officers to see what they were getting into. Im not saying that it makes them less of an officer. I just think that k9 is a position that could be filled with an officer who does not mind spending a little of his extra time to be in that position and do well at it. Our swat team has a minimum standard of 86 percent on every test we take. So that means I could shoot an 86 every time I go to the range and stay on the team. I shoot on my own time and spend my own money to do so. That way I get higher scores. Does that mean, I should turn in a bill to get compensated for that? I dont think so. I think if the k9 officers dont feel like they are being treated fair, why not move to a different position and allow someone else who doesn't mind spending a little of their own time on the dog. They have the added benefit of having a dog to protect their home. There are people thats spend a lot of money on home protection dogs. I know a few k9 officers that spend there own money on equipment, seminars and other things in order to better themselves and their dogs. They dont complain about it. I think that should be the attitude of more handlers.


Sam if federal law says that you should be compensated for ammo and range time to shoot a 86 then yes you should be compensated for that. Your arguement" if K9 handlers dont think there being treated fair they should move to another unit " is exactly the attitude that management hopes everyone adopts. The problem is at what point do you stop volunteering your time ? When you find out you no longer are getting a pay check ?


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

Zakia Days said:


> "FLSA has ended many k9 programs all over the US."
> 
> Yup. I have seen it happen. My brother in law is an officer in a department that just shut down their k9 unit after being in existence for, idk 60 - 70yrs or so? The dept. just could no longer afford to keep the unit on. The dept had been considering letting the k9 unit go for quite some time. The officers didn't bend during negotiation or legislation or whjm
> atever its called and so bye, bye k9 unit. Its a little disappointing. You'd think it was a sense of pride and that they would try and minimize cost to the dept. by seeing where they could compromise and keep the unit going, but nope. Nothing.
> ...



Sure can...and I think in the Cook case they are.... you can give the officer an hour off each day for at home care of the dog. You can also subtract his training time from his 40 hour work week as well and be FLSA compliant. 

David.... I fully agree that as a program administrator its your responsibility to not only represent your handlers to management but to also reduce the likleyhood of liability to the department. Better to prevent the problems now than deal without them later.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Most departments have reserves or auxiallry police, dont you think if they wanted to do it for free they would of done it that way, instead of going for a fulltime positions.

But dont remeber who said this earlier or if there was more than one, honestly not reading through all of the rigger more all again. but for the person or persons that made the comment they would do it for next to nothing or free or half the price or along those lines, theres a perfect way for you to do it and become a officer, do the reserve thing, you go through the same process in 99% of the departments and then when they hire alot of times they do it from within first before out sourcing. 

Then you give 2 to 3 shifts a month on your time when you want that month, you ride with a full timer and have the same arrest powers, some departments even let you go on your own, which I have mix opinions about, but hey its a foot in the door, that is if you really want it that bad. Just food for thought for those of you that want into a thankless lifestyle unless they need you right then and there, then sometimes they still hate your ass even when trying to help them out.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

People seem to forget that the FLSA is not something that K−9 handlers invented. It's the law of the land and has been for many years. It covers people working in the private sector and Federal, State and local governments. It covers minimum wage, overtime pay, hours worked, record keeping and child labor. It's only relatively recently been applied to this niche. Before it passed people could be forced to work overtime without compensation and children worked in sweat shops till they dropped. Like many laws we have today, it's a swinging pendulum. 

The law addresses retribution, in the form of deleting K−9 units, but administrators just find a way around that part of the law when they lose these lawsuits, usually citing cost effectiveness. As long as the handlers shut up and do as they're told, the K−9 units stay. The fact that some here think that because K−9 is a "premium assignment" or that because the handlers love their jobs, and therefore they should not be compensated for extra work, is silly. People should be compensated for work that they do for their employers. The fact that they knew, or should have known, before they went into the job, is meaningless. The law and the reasoning are clear and obvious. If you work, you get paid. 

Just because someone leaves the K−9 unit hardly means that the money is not owed them. There's a three year window to get back compensation. Employers of all types who don't pay overtime for overtime worked, face the threat of lawsuits. In the case of K−9, they often come from people who are no longer in the unit. They realize that if they sue while they're still on the job, that it will simply go away and so they wait until they leave the unit. Departments should go into the K−9 "business" with the understanding and knowledge that paying overtime is a cost of doing business. If they don't, and later want to whine when the law catches up to them, shame on them. This law isn't something new.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/1996-06-14/news/9606131446_1_nyquist-k-9-unit-ray-warner

Ask Ray Warner's family if the price is worth it.


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

My position from the beginning has been, a contract was entered into by adult parties on both sides, and not that someone shouldn't be fairly compensated.
I was wondering about that one side that felt at the end it wasn't worth it after the fact and wants more then what was agreed to. It just leaves a nasty taste in my mouth.
The officer(/s ?) that have filed the suit went in to it for one reason or another, a given. But now it's a problem? The federal fair labors laws have been around a lot longer then the last three years.

So who breached the law?
The city?
The union?
The officer and (ahem) his lawyer?


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

Ya need to get a little bit of the Chicago culture to put
this in perspective.

Our governors are two term, one in office and then in
jail. Everybody from Blogo on down, or up in the
moral sense, is so totally corrupt that they don't 
even understand what all of the fuss is about.

Get to appoint a new senator ? Well naturally
"it's golden" and you are entitled to get what you
can for it.

This guy has no idea why he is going to jail,
he really does not.

Come to the Chicago convention Center to set up
your booth? Need to plug in your light to the plug
that is right there? Whoa! Gotta bring in a Union
Electrician and pay him upwards of $150 to plug
it in for you.

City Garbage trucks have a crew of three, and
union rules to save the guys from being over
worked. Now these jobs are not open to
anybody, what have ya done for your alderman
lately?

Private contractors run trucks faster with one
man.

Our ex mayor sold the rights to parking revenue
for about 50 years into the future, and has spent
all of the money running his patronage system.

So tell me, can any other state or city top that?


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Jim Engel said:


> Ya need to get a little bit of the Chicago culture to put
> this in perspective.
> 
> Our governors are two term, one in office and then in
> ...


 
Ha, that’s it? You should come to NJ!


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

Chris McDonald said:


> Ha, that’s it? You should come to NJ!



Na, we will just buy it and send some guys to
pick it over to see if there is anything worthwhile.

That's the real Chicago Way, ya can buy anything !


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Randy Allen said:


> My position from the beginning has been, a contract was entered into by adult parties on both sides


You can't have a legally binding contract that is in violation of the law; e.g. a contract to murder someone, or to work (or to require work) in excess of 40 hours without overtime being paid.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Jim Engel said:


> Na, we will just buy it and send some guys to
> pick it over to see if there is anything worthwhile.
> 
> That's the real Chicago Way, ya can buy anything !


There aint much here


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

Uh, I don't know about that Lou. I'm a private contractor. Much like a union, only on a smaller scale.

If I need to spend more time then I figured, does that mean I can go back three years and sue everyone that I had to spend extra time on?
I had a fair idea what I was getting into, knew the job would take x amount of this or that and ergo added some cost, but it ended up being more then I really wanted to do. Can I now go back and sue for what I NOW believe was a fairer deal?


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

David Frost said:


> So because I've been in a "service organization" most of my adult life, I should not expect to be fairly compensated. If I do expect fair compensation I'm a punk ass bitch. Hmm. Is the bullet resistant vest too much for taxpayers to bear. We didn't always have those. Glocks cost a lot more than an a .38 revolver, there is a pretty good savings. We could do away with the annual weapons qualification, imagine 1,000 officers, 100 rounds, twice a year. That gets expensive. If they want to be a police officer, they should have to do what volunteer fire departments do, use their own vehicle. They can put lights and sirens, at their expense of course. Imagine how much cutting a fleet of vehicle would save in year. Yeah talk to me about service.
> 
> DFrost


D...

First. Lets stay within the realm of reason. We are not talking about comprimising training, public saftey, adequate resources to perform the job. I dont want to cut the resources in the name of saving a few bucks. Should cops get money to care for the dog...yes. Medical attention, food, kennels, pooper scoopers, toys...they should get every resource to care for, and train the dog. But wages around the clock? come on...that's a little crazy. 

And in the name of fair compensation. what's fair? Fair to me equals a fair days work on a fair days shake. And to me, renigging on any agreement you made....is a punk ass bitch move.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Randy Allen said:


> Uh, I don't know about that Lou. I'm a private contractor. Much like a union, only on a smaller scale.


I’m not a lawyer Randy but I believe that you're classified as an "independent contractor" and therefore not covered by FLSA.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

James Downey said:


> But wages around the clock? come on...that's a little crazy.


Usually the amount that they're asking for has been established by case law, at about an hour a day.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Lou Castle said:


> Usually the amount that they're asking for has been established by case law, at about an hour a day.


And in this instance they are asking for over half million in overtime. So what they usually do, is irrelevant.


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

Come on Lou, let's stretch it bit.
If you want to fall back on lawyer BS fine, but I'm talking about what's right.

I'll stand up all day long for the union against the other half wanting to changing things in mid stream or after the fact.

But it works both ways.
What's fair is fair.


----------



## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Earlier I wrote,


> Usually the amount that they're asking for has been established by case law, at about an hour a day.





James Downey said:


> And in this instance they are asking for over half million in overtime. So what they usually do, is irrelevant.


Typically all the handlers that were in the unit, sue for this back pay. The news story that started this thread says that the handlers are asking for back pay of $530,000 from 2007 to 2011. That's about $132,000 per year. Divide that by 365 days/year and you get about $363/day. We don't know how many officers are involved in the lawsuit (I did some searching but was unable to find it) or their pay rate, but the Cook County Sheriff's Department is one of the largest agencies in the state. If you figure 15 dog handlers, that comes to about $24/officer/day. That's about the right amount for a $16/hour pay rate. If you figure 10 dog handlers, that comes to about $36/officer/day. That's about right for an $24/hour pay rate. Either hourly pay rate is believable

As I said.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Randy Allen said:


> Come on Lou, let's stretch it bit.
> If you want to fall back on lawyer BS fine


I’m not sure what you want to _"stretch a bit."_ 

This isn't _"lawyer BS."_ This is a matter of what the law requires. The employing agency knew, or should have known (I'm sure that they did) before they started a K−9 unit, that the law REQUIRES that handlers get paid overtime for every hour worked, over 40/week. They knew, or should have known that they law REQUIRES that they be compensated for maintaining the K−9 at home. This is not the first such lawsuit in the land. 



Randy Allen said:


> , but I'm talking about what's right.


This isn't a matter of opinion, it's a matter of law. 



Randy Allen said:


> I'll stand up all day long for the union against the other half wanting to changing things in mid stream or after the fact.


The union isn't changing things in mid-stream. The law has been in effect for decades. The agency should have been compensating the handlers for their work off−duty since "day one." Officers should not even have to ask for it. Now they have and they are, by law, entitled to it. No doubt, they'll get it.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Jim Engel said:


> Ya need to get a little bit of the Chicago culture to put
> this in perspective.
> 
> Our governors are two term, one in office and then in
> ...


Jim dont forget you cannot unload your own car,van or truck at the convention either, you have to hire a union worker to haul your case(s) into the convention center last time I checked, even if you just have one small table full of stuff.... I think the fee was $75.00 or so...if I remember correctly...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Lou Castle said:


> The union isn't changing things in mid-stream. The law has been in effect for decades. The agency should have been compensating the handlers for their work off−duty since "day one." Officers should not even have to ask for it. Now they have and they are, by law, entitled to it. No doubt, they'll get it.


Lou...

it appears that the officers get a paid lunch and leave an hour early on the shift, but still get paid for it, according to the department...presumably to help address overtime concerns...

I would imagine consideration for off days, or weekends or whatevers, would be an issue to consider as well...

If in fact they are getting a paid lunch, and getting off an hour early with pay, that number seems really really high, on paper anyhow...your math is based on compensation for every single day of the year, for every officer..

I am all for guys getting paid if they got screwed, or actually did work overtime..but I would think it would have to be looked at in detail, on a case by case basis..

they supposedly are getting 1-2 hours paid per day of work, without working those 1-2 hours..that shaves 5-10 hours per week, per officer.

Did you calculate this into your math figures? I did not see any reference to this in your posts....if this is accurate, how might that effect your stance on the issue.

The Cook county, and Chicago system is one of the most corrupted in the country...the Metra train workers dont even collect the train fare, half the time...public workers of all types are caught for ghost payroll, and sleeping on the job, out in the public, or at home even...all the time..

I know a guy that works for Metra, that is on paid leave from his job, FOR AN ENTIRE YEAR, maybe even 18 months....because he was in the engine of a train that hit a person and killed them...automatically a year off...regardless of his mental state..a full years pay, to sit at home, if he wants to..

the problem is systemic in Chicago.


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## Robert Palmer (Oct 17, 2011)

Office jobs get an hour lunch every day. Police often put sandwiches down mid-bite. That's kind of weak to treat a lunch break like some sort of perk.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

We don't officially have a "lunch hour". You may check out on the radio letting them know you are going to eat, but you are on the clock and you are subject to leave at any second. I've left more than one meal unfinished on a table. 

dFrost


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Robert Palmer said:


> Office jobs get an hour lunch every day. Police often put sandwiches down mid-bite. That's kind of weak to treat a lunch break like some sort of perk.


the office people I know, dont even take lunches usually...too much work to do...I would not assume office jobs get an hour lunch every day..
that is the biggest complaint I have been hearing when talking to my friends, no time for lunch...too much work, everyone is downsized for the most part...and almost all the office people I know are on salary not hourly, and they are mostly all are working at least 50 hours with NO overtime pay...not because it is mandated by the companies, just so they can get the work done...

I get it...overtime is overtime, and should be paid..if there is actually overtime, and someone is getting screwed...

there is not enough info given to assume that every officer in that department is entitled to overtime pay for every day of the year in my mind. that is all I am saying..


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Lou Castle said:


> Earlier I wrote,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No, it's what you made up. Based in no actual facts. Here's the deal. What they get is: pay for a regular 40 hour work week. But only actually put in 35- 36 hours a week. The 4-5 hours is compensation for thier time at home caring for the dogs. So they do get compensated for caring for the dog. What they want is the difference between regular pay and time and half on that 4-5 hours. They want over time...because caring for a dog is "hard". They do not actually work any overtime. 

And I found 2 websites one says Cook County has 8 dog...the other 11.


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

If the department was so negligent, why wasn't it addressed at the pay window the first week, or to his superior, or the union advisory board or the closest federal watch dog group?

Why all the noise it after the fact when it could easily have been handled and settled in the time frame it was happening.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Joby my figures were based on all the information that I had at the moment. The FLSA says that all time worked over 40 hours, must be compensated at time and one-half. While the department may have thought that by giving the officers time off, that they had this covered, I'd guess that the officers think that the department was not compensating them properly, hence the lawsuit. 



Randy Allen said:


> If the department was so negligent, why wasn't it addressed at the pay window the first week, or to his superior, or the union advisory board or the closest federal watch dog group?
> 
> Why all the noise it after the fact when it could easily have been handled and settled in the time frame it was happening.


Perhaps they tried and got shot down. And so to keep their positions they decided to table the issue until it was the "right time" for the lawsuit. Happens all the time.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

The problem with this whole thing is once they get one hour a few years later they want another hour. Although this thread is regarding LE K9 handlers we are really talking about government employees as a whole. For the most part it is a broken system to say the least. 
As far as officers being in the low paid category many of my cop buddies in NJ ( im not a cop) think they are compensated very fairly to say the least. One local town has had some layoffs and the officers there are saying how unfair it is. But many officers in surrounding towns will tell me they did it to themselves by bitching and moaning to get raises that they were bound to break the bank. Maybe there are some departments in some areas that really do rock and roll nonstop but lets face it many departments do have some down time while on the clock. Again I am referring to officers here but it goes government wide. 
Now lets not even talk about the government retirement program. How can a system that allows someone to retire at 45 with 70 percent of pay and full benefits ever work?? It can’t. The math doesn’t work. let’s not even talk about the people I know o disability at 40. It’s a sin. And im sure the little I know doesn’t even scratch the surface. 
One of the things that I found interesting is watching and working with retired government employees that try to start business of their own. I have no hard proof but really believe there is an extremely high failure rate for a retired government employee of any kind trying to do the small business thing. There are many reasons for this. The biggest is simple, there experience is not from the real world. 
As far as the office worker getting a lunch hour…. Ha, ha you must be nuts, this is just more of the poor me’s. 
Again this isn’t about any specific government job, just the government jobs as a whole. We got the falling of Rome. Lets just print more money. 
I don’t want to bust anyone’s bubble but this thread is in the “political” category.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Lou Castle said:


> Perhaps they tried and got shot down. And so to keep their positions they decided to table the issue until it was the "right time" for the lawsuit. Happens all the time.


 
People who think like this or do things like this are bottom dwellers. When you stay someplace waiting for the “right time” to sue is deep in the scum category. This goes for anyone not just government employees. You just get a select group of people who loose there morals and convince each other its Ok or right. Same category of people selling dope to kids cause the kids want to buy it. They just brain wash each other into greed


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

So Chris, cops are overpaid??

What about soldiers?

Nurses?


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> So Chris, cops are overpaid??
> 
> What about soldiers?
> 
> Nurses?


I never said that I said I have friends who are very content with their LE pay in my neck of the woods. 
I don’t know where you are from but in the USA being in the military is a volunteer action. Believe it or not the main reason many join is for the pride of protecting their country not to get rich. And I really don’t think there is a dollar price we can put on them doing this. In many ways it is priceless. 
And what do Nurses have to do with any of this? You going to list every job out there? Or are you in some socialistic country where being a Nurse is a government job?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Chris McDonald said:


> People who think like this or do things like this are bottom dwellers. When you stay someplace waiting for the “right time” to sue is deep in the scum category. This goes for anyone not just government employees. You just get a select group of people who loose there morals and convince each other its Ok or right. Same category of people selling dope to kids cause the kids want to buy it. They just brain wash each other into greed


Seriously? Belonging to a union (or association or whatever) that determines whether a workplace lawsuit is "ripe," regardless of how unsavory that sounds (and maybe is), is in the same category as "people selling dope to kids cause the kids want to buy it"?


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Have to agree. Bad analogy.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Just askin, fyi I live in a country that politians are striving hard to make an unofficial next state of the US, dont know why, and I like the US and the working people I met there. to answer yr question we have nurses in both state and private systems, personally i opted for private but i'm in a position to choose.

US soldiers are volunteers??? What like doctors that go into war zones to provide free expertise?


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Howard Knauf said:


> Have to agree. Bad analogy.


Ya ill agree with you both too as a whole… I over did it a bit.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> .... US soldiers are volunteers??? ....



The U.S. draft ended in 1973.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Chris McDonald said:


> Ya ill agree with you both too as a whole… I over did it a bit.




I appreciate you saying that.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

And yet, believe it or not, I'm going to guess that most of them feel (100% rightfully, IMO) that they should receive the pay and the benefits that they are legally entitled to.

And if they did not, and their legal representation decided if and when to institute legal action, this would not reclass them for me in a "bottom sweller scum" category.

Just sayin' ......


No, if there were supposed to get hazarded pay and did not they are entitled to it. But there are always grey areas with everything and people who are willing to push the limits or take advantage of how something was worded. Again this goes for everything not picking on something specific.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Well Connie comparing cops to selling drugs to kids somehow mixed with overtime pay dogs or something over rode my pause function.

Draft might have finished but army is advertised as any other career I seen.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> US soldiers are volunteers??? What like doctors that go into war zones to provide free expertise?


 
Exactly, good to see your getting it. 
What do you not understand about the word volunteer? Granted they are paid volunteers but it is still volunteering.


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

*Steping close to the edge.*

This may be getting a little close to the edge of inappropriate political discussions,
but what I see here is a nation that has overspent across the board, both in our
personal lives and in public policy. Many of us have purchased houses a little bit
over our heads because of rapidly rising prices, and refinanced and taken money
out to enhance our lifestyles, live beyond our real means.

Government agencies and public corporations have made commitments for
retirement pensions and levels of medical service based on the idea that 
the economy was going to expand at ten percent a year forever.

What we see here is in a way bickering among people feeling pain or fearing
financial pain, and these fears are not unreasonable.

This is not just a little adjustment or wave in the economy, this is according
to what I read likely to be a readjustment that could play out for fifteen or
more years, just as in the 1930s.

Government jobs can be hard to fill when times are good because of rapidly
increasing public salaries and benefits, but when times are bad the greater
security and the often generous retirement plans become even more desirable.

In Illinois we have public entities doubling a salary for a final month because
the state funded pension is according to the final salary, a clearly immoral if
not illegal maneuver. People get put in a salaried position for a very short time
and then draw a very substantial pension. These are not ordinary people, are
connected people, but there is enough of this going on to reduce faith
in the system and to put a huge and growing burden on the taxpayer.
All joking aside, Illinois is a very corrupt state.

A lot of this conversation has gotten to be, shall we say, resentful, and my
suggestion is that we need to back off a little bit. We are capable of very
productive and useful discussion, the people responsible for all of this are
not on this list and there is little point in taking shots at each other.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Well Connie comparing cops to selling drugs to kids somehow mixed with overtime pay dogs or something over rode my pause function.
> 
> Draft might have finished but army is advertised as any other career I seen.


Please show me where I compared cops to drug dealers?
Yes the military can be possibly be a career. I have several friends who have made it that and are doing very well. I don’t think Im bright enough to help you with your lack of understanding.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

I'm off this but the word volunteer implies to me unpaid, everyone employed is a volunteer in yr definition so why pick out defence force personnel? 

Those employed according to you are volunteers or slaves, slavery was abolished earlier than the 70's I think Connie.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

*Re: Steping close to the edge.*



Jim Engel said:


> This may be getting a little close to the edge of inappropriate political discussions,
> but what I see here is a nation that has overspent across the board, both in our
> personal lives and in public policy. Many of us have purchased houses a little bit
> over our heads because of rapidly rising prices, and refinanced and taken money
> ...


Jim I agree with many things you said, but disagree with a few. Although our economy is not at the top of its game I believe there is still plenty of opportunity out there for all. Maybe I should have taken some of the things I said a bit further and include many of the people in the private sector as well as the government sector. I’ve seen my share of people in the private sector have to go home early because the lighting was giving them a head ache. Or sue someone or a company for reasons I could never come up. Ya, a lot of it is just scum looking for a free meal ticket. 
So the question is how many additional hours a week should someone who uses a dog in their job be paid for? Whats fair?


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> I'm off this but the word volunteer implies to me unpaid, everyone employed is a volunteer in yr definition so why pick out defence force personnel?
> 
> Those employed according to you are volunteers or slaves, slavery was abolished earlier than the 70's I think Connie.


 
Just show me where I compared cops to drug dealers? 
Like everything else you say it just doesn’t add up


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

I repeat, OFF THIS


stew without me dude.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Stew? Who is stewing?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> I'm off this but the word volunteer implies to me unpaid, everyone employed is a volunteer in yr definition so why pick out defence force personnel?



Peter, military service here has been both conscription (draft) and volunteer, in different periods.

In the U.S., both drafted and volunteer servicepersons have always been paid (or at least were legally supposed to be; I believe that Revolutionary soldiers mostly did not actually get the pay they had been promised by Congress, I think largely because getting it together to collect the taxes needed to pay them was extremely difficult in an infant government during a war).


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

*Re: Steping close to the edge.*



Jim Engel said:


> ... A lot of this conversation has gotten to be, shall we say, resentful .... the people responsible for all of this are
> not on this list and there is little point in taking shots at each other.


Good point.


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

I admit my last post was something of a rhetorical question.

And I knew an answer would come back of go along to get along would come up.

Well what kind of union is do you guys have? If it can't even get what you LE folk accept as adequate pay for keeping a dog? That can't see or acknowledge an abuse of a screwing of members of the crew?
Why wasn't there a stink about this [alleged] short changing made by the immediate instigator or the union before it blew up into a 1/2 million dollar law suit?


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Im not resentful in any way I wish the best for all. Just don’t understand the decisions of grown adults sometimes


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## Pete Stevens (Dec 16, 2010)

I'm all for fair compensation. Per our MOU we get half an hour a day of OT for care and maintaining the dog and our assigned equipment. It wasn't always this way and FLSA changed the way admin did things. At first, we were released early from shift but we are a busy city and were often called back on our way home so financially that didn't work. I can honestly say there are days when I spend a heck of a lot more of my time than half an hour but I also am issued a vehicle so I look at it as a wash. One thing that regular cops get to do is leave the job at the station. K9 handlers are responsible for the dog 24/7, 365. Even on days off, we care for and even train with our partners. Yes, some handlers get greedy and want more than what is fair. 

We had a lawsuit filed in our area from some handlers that actually lived out of the county, 70 miles from their city. They wanted to be paid from the time they left their house until the got to the city. I call BS on that one. K9 pay, take home sled and city gas is more than fair. That lawsuit got dismissed when the story went semi-public and the greed was obvious.

There are a lot of law suits regarding handler pay and several are former handlers who don't really care what happens to the unit because they are no longer part of it. I've seen agencies downsize their units because of it. This isn't the first and won't be the last lawsuit by a handler or former handler. 

Stand by to stand by because another will be coming down the pipe soon, just like doning and doffing did.


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## Robert Palmer (Oct 17, 2011)

>>As far as the office worker getting a lunch hour…. Ha, ha you must be nuts, 

Nope. Not at all. Unless the server catches on fire, there's no emergency per se. Just more of the same work to attend do as before lunch. I'm speaking of the financial sector here with which I'm experienced...banks, finance, trusts, underwriting etc.


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## Franco Erickson (Dec 20, 2008)

The median total compensation for a Chicago patrol officer is $76,900. This includes the base pay, health insurance, pension and retirement contributions, disability and time off. Therefore, the median base pay of $54,561 is 71 percent of an officer's total compensation, as of 2010

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