# French Ring OB



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

How would you order / break down training for FR obedience?


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## Amanda Caldron (Mar 2, 2009)

What specifically are you asking here? What method to train it? What exercises to train? The breakdown of the french ring ob is pretty laid back. They don't require an attention heel, etc. but the dog must show alot of control and is obvioulsy easier if the dog knows an attention heel. The obedience portion of the test is really not all that difficult (IMO) if your dog knows heel, sit, stand, down stay and does ok with muzzle that is your obedience pretty much. What makes ring so hard is the amount of pressure it is on the dog mentally. The self control the dog must have from food, from sniffing, from running around marking, biting, etc. from listening and being attentive to the command the dog will fail miserably if the dog begins to anticipate things and most of all from the bite work. From all the decoy/helper work I have witnessed it seems that ring is meant for the decoy to have the advantage (not saying they don't work your dog to a comfortable spot) but it is more about getting into them and exposing all weaknesses. I train each exercise as obedience and in drive so they get use to that constant pressure. Good luck feel free to pm me for specific questions.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Anne Vaini said:


> How would you order / break down training for FR obedience?


Training the specific exercises there is many ways to do it. But I guess that wasn't the question.

In order of importance to me is this

1. Whistle Recall

2. Food refusal

3. Muzzle

4. Positions, holding all positions especially the stand. 

5. Retrieve

6. Heeling with the auto sit

Doesn't mean you would just start with your whistle and only work that. I'd be working all these things, adding them quick little by little to your program, heeling in between exercises etc. Working the whistle on your front steps not unlike the eye contact game, feeding the dog through the muzzle at mealtime. (My dog likes her lips when I pull out the muzzle, so I guess I trained it well!) etc etc LOL!

That would help in avoiding little issues in the beginning and will bode well for the future.


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## Francis Metcalf (Oct 10, 2009)

If you are into Service dogs then, you should try the Seen Retrieve, it's basically a service dog ex. You can easily transfer the same steps to a Hearing Dog key Drop or any number of service dog retrieves using the same pattern.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Francis is on to something here Ann. Funny he should say that as my FR dog is now doing Service dog stuff as you may or may not know I have a mobility impairment. She is picking up dropped socks , Scissors, Asthma meds, the wireless phone, cellophane wrappers, the all important remote .. using a laser pointer to point what I need done. That all started from the FR thrown retrieve as the only foundation. 

Another thing I'd like to add from my previous post is all FR exercises are done in random after the Brevet level so start training the exercises random as well. 

My order of importance list is more what I as thinking important to my particular dog from the issues and time constraints I had training them. Looking back on the post I'd put positions as #2 and Food Refusal as #4 as positions are somewhat time consuming to train where food refusal foundation could be done in a few sessions.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Maybe I'll do the seen retreive just to biuld up my confidence. FR intimidates me for whatever reason. The dog already has attention heeling and retrieval of a dropped item. So a litttle chaining and it should be good.

Thanks Geoff - that was exactly what I was looking for.

I think 4 , 5, 6 on that list will be easy - or already are done. The first bunch are harder for us! The recall should be easy - just switch from command to whistle. 

I've been stuck on the muzzle for about a year and a half with this dog. I clicker trained her to put her nose into a Jafco muzzle. She does it eagerly. She waits for the straps to go on. But then the pawing starts. Seems like no matter how careful I am to keep her busy, she manages a paw in there. I need to start this over, but I'm not sure what to do differently to avoid the problem.

On a side note, I've never successfully trained the laser pointer target for retrieval. Was it hard for your dog?


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## Chad Byerly (Jun 24, 2008)

*Re: laser pointer*

I used one with my last dog. In two sessions he would go touch or sit/down/etc. or retrieve what the laser was on (depending on which cue I used, behaviors already taught). But after the second session he started darting his eyes around looking... I scrapped the tool, because I didn't want a shadow-chaser (already tended toward OCD..).


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Anne Vaini said:


> Thanks Geoff - that was exactly what I was looking for.


NP glad to be a help. 



Anne Vaini said:


> Maybe I'll do the seen retreive just to biuld up my confidence. FR intimidates me for whatever reason. The dog already has attention heeling and retrieval of a dropped item. So a litttle chaining and it should be good.


FR OB to many people make it complicated, it doesn't need to be intimidating. FR OB for the most part is easier than comparable AKC style OB. Because it is just straight and to the point. Chaining is fine but don't go overboard keep it simple. If the dog already retrieves just use the same command for the foundation work. Bring is bring keep it that simple. I use a intermediate marker at first when the dog is on the right path and if you need to, repeat the command if the dog is confused. 



Anne Vaini said:


> I think 4 , 5, 6 on that list will be easy - or already are done. The first bunch are harder for us! The recall should be easy - just switch from command to whistle.


Whistle recall is very important as is basically keeping it simple. There is 2 types of outs one where the dog guards and the other where the dog get it's furry butt back to you as quick as possible. So you use the whistle on the X out heel, then every other time you use your voice for an out the dog is pre-programmed for a guard. You can get away with using voice but as the levels increase it gets increasingly hard to use just voice. 



Anne Vaini said:


> I've been stuck on the muzzle for about a year and a half with this dog. I clicker trained her to put her nose into a Jafco muzzle. She does it eagerly. She waits for the straps to go on. But then the pawing starts. Seems like no matter how careful I am to keep her busy, she manages a paw in there. I need to start this over, but I'm not sure what to do differently to avoid the problem.


Feed the dog its meal through the muzzle if it doesn't have a muzzle on, it doesn't get fed. Soon the dog will love that muzzle!  You could even use a paper cup with the bottom cut out. I use a Jafco as well and I always treat her with it on still. Small pieces of kibble or salmon bits can go through the holes and bigger pieces get stuffed in the side. 



Anne Vaini said:


> On a side note, I've never successfully trained the laser pointer target for retrieval. Was it hard for your dog?


The key again was keeping it simple and only using one command "apporte" as well, plus only using the pointer sparingly. I'm a big fan of Kayce Cover and her Syn Alia method so I follow her method when I know it will make it clearer for the dog. Today I put my bowl (made of china) down so she could slurp up the leftover milk after she was done I gave her the "apporte" command and flashed the pointer .. she nudged it with her nose .. I repeated the command without the pointer and then started to encourage her (intermediate marker) she picked it up and followed me into the kitchen with it. I still find all the service dog stuff that she does quite amazing. I guess I'm still on a service dog honeymoon. I really think it all transposes back and forth the OB between the disciplines if you keep it simple.


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## Chad Byerly (Jun 24, 2008)

*Re: laser pointer*

Geoff, I just read your post about service dog training (hadn't read the thread in order, and thought Anne had just brought up laser pointers). That's cool that your girl is learning that stuff.


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## Amanda Caldron (Mar 2, 2009)

Anne now I better understand your question. If you already have the attention heeling going that's awesome! If your dog already has an eye contact command I would definately restart the muzzle this way. Take the good part of it and allow her to eagerly get the muzzle on, maybe instead of doing the straps just leave it there have her make eye contact with you while feeding through muzzle and then take off and reward. With many repetitions, with food or toy as reward, switch it up. Longer periods of time with eye contact before taking it off sometimes fastening strap sometimes not. 

As for my breakdown order of importance will be (these are all what I consider obedience although not all are scored)

Holding at line of departure
Recalls 
Outs
Guards
Change of Positions without moving
Muzzle
Heeling (with auto sit)
Food refusal
Jumps
Initial positions
Retrieves

I love how the service dog retrieval items truely help with the retrieves, especially in such sports like Mondio and PSA where the retrieval item could vary greatly.
Good luck!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I like to put the muzzle on, and correct for pawing. If the dog is temperamentally sound, then this method works real well. 

Don't be so intimidated, just use corrections. There is no reason at all that putting a muzzle on a dog should take more than a few sessions. There are plenty of things to train, and when it takes more than a few sessions, you start to realize why people are not going to take 6 months to fart around with all positive.

Put the muzzle on, and start running right away. If you want to have a positive end to it, then give them a treat after. This really shouldn't be any big deal at all.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

*Re: laser pointer*



Chad Byerly said:


> Geoff, I just read your post about service dog training (hadn't read the thread in order, and thought Anne had just brought up laser pointers). That's cool that your girl is learning that stuff.



Yeah with this dog it is quite easy I've found. There isn't a lot that she can't do, very biddable. She has a strong desire to retrieve and hunt for things so it is natural for her. I'm pretty spoiled as a handler.


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## Erica Boling (Jun 17, 2008)

Is there a specific type of muzzle that should be used? If not, what kind of muzzle do people prefer?


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Jeff - that worked this morning. Not perfect, but better. I think I do need to bring some food into it because she was more subdued than I would like.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

you culd add agetation to the muzzel to. This will make the dog feel like the muzzel is a inflated selfesteam. If you have anyone good at traning dogs to hit in a muzzel trye that. Then it will be pumpt upp with the muzzel on, The corections will not bite as hard then, but get thru becaus they miss the fun of hitting peopel with the muzzel


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Erica Boling said:


> Is there a specific type of muzzle that should be used? If not, what kind of muzzle do people prefer?


I really like these .. http://www.jafcomuzzles.com/ .. Well made, inexpensive, light, easy on/off, the dog can pant in them and even drink if needed. 

I can slip small pieces of kibble or salmon treats these .. http://www.zukes.com/woof/mini-naturals.html ..through the holes or slide bigger pieces of food in the side. 

I'd like to try a wire muzzle as well for the same reasons, it maybe even easier to feed the dog with a wire muzzle. (haven't tried though) Like these .. http://www.dogmuzzle.com/wirbasdogmuz1.html .. the only thing about the wire muzzles is that there is a felt insert to pad the dogs nose and that can break down over time and is hard to clean. Where the Jafco is easily washed in the sink or by a hose.


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## Chad Byerly (Jun 24, 2008)

Geoff those look like the wire basket muzzles Morrco sell, and I have to say they are too restrictive and don't let the dog open his mouth much at all. I recommend the wire ones Leerburg sells, they are well worth double the price.

I agree about the Jafco's being nice.

Lisa Maize mentioned greyhound muzzles (for Malinois) on another WDF muzzle thread, and they really are pretty great and cheap! Lots of room to put the treats in and the dog can pant, etc. I like them better than the "Italian" plastic basket muzzles, and they're the same price or cheaper.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Jeff - that worked this morning. Not perfect, but better. I think I do need to bring some food into it because she was more subdued than I would like.

That goes away.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I like to use the "reward for sticking your nose in" method you originally mentioned to start the training, just because I don't like dealing with a dog in trial who is trying to avoid the muzzle. And many dogs will learn that, they behave once it's one, but will try to avoid you getting it on. If that goes on to long, or you have to do to much to get the dog to hold still, you can loose points, up to the entire exercise. 

Once the muzzle is on I will reward through the holes, but I will also correct. I'm not correcting for pawing at the muzzle though, I'm correcting for lack of focus. Seems like a minor distinction but it does make a difference to the dog IMO. For one thing, I'm correcting them for not doing something they already know (not focusing) vs correcting them for something they don't understand yet. 

I will continue to toss a piece of food into the muzzle before putting it on in training through most of the dogs career, to keep the desire to shove their face into it when I pull it out. If I have to struggle with a dog in trial, then I know I've gotten lazy in training LOL

My best muzzles have been ones where I took the dog with me and sized the muzzle on the dog right there. I've gotten them from vendors at trials, but a lot of them have come from taking the dog into a mom and pop pet store (they tend to carry more of this type of thing then a PetSmart/PetCo type) and just trying on what they have until I find the right one. And a dog is much less likely to fight a properly fitting muzzle then one that is to small, or limits panting, etc.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

andreas broqvist said:


> you culd add agetation to the muzzel to. This will make the dog feel like the muzzel is a inflated selfesteam. If you have anyone good at traning dogs to hit in a muzzel trye that. Then it will be pumpt upp with the muzzel on, The corections will not bite as hard then, but get thru becaus they miss the fun of hitting peopel with the muzzel


 
NO< NO< NO< NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You DON"T want or need the dog Jacked up with the site or the wearing of the muzzle.

THIS is a HUGE mistake!


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Chad Byerly said:


> Geoff those look like the wire basket muzzles Morrco sell, and I have to say they are too restrictive and don't let the dog open his mouth much at all. I recommend the wire ones Leerburg sells, they are well worth double the price.
> 
> I agree about the Jafco's being nice.
> 
> Lisa Maize mentioned greyhound muzzles (for Malinois) on another WDF muzzle thread, and they really are pretty great and cheap! Lots of room to put the treats in and the dog can pant, etc. I like them better than the "Italian" plastic basket muzzles, and they're the same price or cheaper.


Good to know about those wire muzzles. I've wanted to try one for awhile. Dog Sport gear has some as well that I was looking at. 

Jafco's for the price can't be beat my only caveat is the holes are a bit small for shoving food in. 

One of my friends Sarah from Chicago had those Greyhound racing muzzles and they were the best I've seen for that type of stuff, big holes (the middle one) and a huge gap on the side for ease of use and lots of room for the dog to pant and have air move over its tongue. Like these ..









That's the thing about the muzzle for FR, the rules will allow almost any muzzle. So if you aren't going to use a muzzle for anything else but FR heeling might as well be the easiest one to train with. 



Kadi Thingvall said:


> I will continue to toss a piece of food into the muzzle before putting it on in training through most of the dogs career, to keep the desire to shove their face into it when I pull it out. If I have to struggle with a dog in trial, then I know I've gotten lazy in training LOL


LOL oh yeah I hear you! If my dog doesn't lick her lips when I pull out the muzzle I've done something wrong! I treat after as well by holding the muzzle at a little higher than hip level so she has to root for it. 



Kadi Thingvall said:


> ]Once the muzzle is on I will reward through the holes, but I will also correct. I'm not correcting for pawing at the muzzle though, I'm correcting for lack of focus. Seems like a minor distinction but it does make a difference to the dog IMO. For one thing, I'm correcting them for not doing something they already know (not focusing) vs correcting them for something they don't understand yet.


Perfect explanation Kadi! To add I reward for focus with the muzzle on as well. Like training anything with these types of dogs the ebb and flow of reward and correction makes the whole training exercise clear for the dog.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

I downt do FR so I downt know. Just a tips to get the dog more alert. We use it this way.
But your right if they downt use it to hit with in FR it might be a bad plan 



Kyle Sprag said:


> NO< NO< NO< NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> You DON"T want or need the dog Jacked up with the site or the wearing of the muzzle.
> 
> THIS is a HUGE mistake!


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

> LOL oh yeah I hear you! If my dog doesn't lick her lips when I pull out the muzzle I've done something wrong! I treat after as well by holding the muzzle at a little higher than hip level so she has to root for it.


Wuldent this more be a sight of that the dog is kind of unshore and dosent realy like the situation with the muzzel? Liking the lips is a submisive/unshore thing. Not a Im hungry thing


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

andreas broqvist said:


> Wuldent this more be a sight of that the dog is kind of unshore and dosent realy like the situation with the muzzel? Liking the lips is a submisive/unshore thing. Not a Im hungry thing


Not the way I've trained it Andreas, even though me saying that she licks her lips the minute I pull out the muzzle is a bit of an exaggeration. All the muzzle foundation with my dog was done no stress, food with only short periods built up into fun heeling. As like Kadi said in her post I do the same thing the only time I correct her is for attention. That is usually a verbal correction as well no need to take the dog off its feet. Especially once the dog is always reinforced positively when doing the good behaviour. 

As in FR the muzzle is only used for one exercise which is the 'heel with the muzzle'. (shocker it was named that) :lol: So there is no need for agitation with the muzzle such as in Belgian Ring in FR it is just a piece of equipment like a leash something we want the dog to be neutral with. 

Hope that helps Andreas.


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## Leri Hanson (Apr 3, 2008)

Sounds like you're getting the muzzle down now Annie, but if for some reason your dog just doesnt settle in the way you want/need....experiment with different muzzles. There is no rule on what type of muzzle is used as long as the end is closed. Some of my dogs favorite muzzles have been home-made.

I have different size heads (Mal, Bandog, Pit) and in the beginning training of this exercise what one dog wore comfortably the other might fight. Sometimes it's not so much the muzzle itself as much as it is the correct "fit" for your particular dog. My bullys' generally wear muzzles that are one size too big whereas my Mali can wear a muzzle one size too small and be perfectly fine with it. Now that all my mutts are further along in the training the muzzle is not a factor. In fact, all my dogs now wear the same muzzle. But in the beginning, that was not the case. Soft muzzles are generally more comfy. But hard muzzles look cool  In trial I've yet to see a Ring 2 or 3 dog fight the muzzle. You are more apt to see it in Brevet or Ring 1 where the dogs are often young and silly and/or lack the necessary reps. 

Leri


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Geoff.
Thanks, Yes I mix FR with BR.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Leri Hanson said:


> Sounds like you're getting the muzzle down now Annie, but if for some reason your dog just doesnt settle in the way you want/need....experiment with different muzzles. There is no rule on what type of muzzle is used as long as the end is closed. Some of my dogs favorite muzzles have been home-made.
> 
> I have different size heads (Mal, Bandog, Pit) and in the beginning training of this exercise what one dog wore comfortably the other might fight. Sometimes it's not so much the muzzle itself as much as it is the correct "fit" for your particular dog. My bullys' generally wear muzzles that are one size too big whereas my Mali can wear a muzzle one size too small and be perfectly fine with it. Now that all my mutts are further along in the training the muzzle is not a factor. In fact, all my dogs now wear the same muzzle. But in the beginning, that was not the case. Soft muzzles are generally more comfy. But hard muzzles look cool  In trial I've yet to see a Ring 2 or 3 dog fight the muzzle. You are more apt to see it in Brevet or Ring 1 where the dogs are often young and silly and/or lack the necessary reps.
> 
> Leri


 
You're right! lol I stopped training after that one seesion because her muzzle doesn't fit quite right anymore. She has too much cheek fat now for it to be comfortable. I'm muzzle shopping again! \\/


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Anne Vaini said:


> You're right! lol I stopped training after that one seesion because her muzzle doesn't fit quite right anymore. She has too much cheek fat now for it to be comfortable. I'm muzzle shopping again! \\/


2 new muzzles are on the way! \\/ A larger Jafco and a plastic greyhound kennel muzzle.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Anne Vaini said:


> 2 new muzzles are on the way! \\/ A larger Jafco and a plastic greyhound kennel muzzle.


Cool! What greyhound muzzle did you get?


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Geoff Empey said:


> Cool! What greyhound muzzle did you get?


I got a walk-out muzzle. It looks like it is a softer material that I can cut and modify to fit my dog.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

JEFF! HELP!

I taught Emma to back up into the stand. This is what I got this morning... #-o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQyGsL_uGBY


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Here is what she usually does. Sloppy! How do I clean it up?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xwKf4ONUys


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Adding in control. I put a chain coupler around her neck. She freaks out. #-oThis was take 3, so I was getting a little peeved with her.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5CoJYI0yxo

How can I even out the dog? A little enthusiasm with a little self-control would be GREAT.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

go back a step and put her on a table


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Anne Vaini said:


> JEFF! HELP!
> 
> I taught Emma to back up into the stand. This is what I got this morning... #-o


This is Geoff with a 'G' not a 'J' sorry to disapoint, if I may suggest a few things. 

First of all why the 'back up' into the stand? Does she know a 'place' command? 

IMHO you shouldn't be doing the positions at that stage of the game without a barrier of some sort. That makes it clear to the dog where she should be. Will's suggestion of a table is good, but if you do use one an agility table something not as tall so as to not to flip out the dog or use a barrier made out of wood or pvc not unlike this old thread there is lots of great info on training the positions here Anne as well it was great thread. http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f9/help-change-positions-10715/index5.html 

I'd put her butt to a wall and with a unimposing barrier in front and reward her for holding position not for taking position. I'd also let a bit more time pass between commands for position change. I can see she is just getting frantic from command overload. 

Set her up for success and that requires the barrier. Then praise her more when she gets it right you IMO are using to much negativity with your verbal and body language, she isn't understanding what you are picturing in your mind what she should do. You need to back it up a bit and make her have more success and only then up the ante.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Anne Vaini said:


> JEFF! HELP!
> 
> I taught Emma to back up into the stand. This is what I got this morning... #-o
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQyGsL_uGBY



as soon as the dog stands, mark("YES") and YOU move back to get the dog to engage you for the treat. Then go back to marking the stand immediately but you treat the dog right there. Then work the dog with a wall or some kind of barrier behind her.

Doesn't this dog play tug? 

I watched all of the vids and the dog does look like she enjoys training or maybe it's training with you. In the very last vid you posted, your energy was negative and the dog senses it. You should be training while you feel like that. 

If I were working with that dog, I would go back and just give two commands at once Sit, Stand - reward and then play play play. Down, Sit - reward and then play play play play. Down, Stand etc.... Then work toward three but I would almost alway keep it at two commands but expressed randomly.

Running through all of the positions for the dog is too much for it right now and you're creating too many opportunities for the dog to fail. Dial it back and create opportunities for success. 

Why are you using hard treats? I like small soft treat that get swallowed right away so it's not a break in training nor is it a distraction for the dog.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

OK. I tried the table. A first. Never used it before! And used tug. She didn't go over the top in drive. Probably because I carried a metal "collar" down with us. She came back to me collar shy and hand shy. Gotta love it. ](*,)

I've used a barrier in front. She starts trying to manipulate it, so I gave up.

I have to take away the "yes" marker because she will continue offering positions in her order until she hears a yes. Drives me nuts. Correction doesn't stop it. So bye-bye markers. I can chain fewer together though. That may work.

Here's the next one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4bfME-Itmk


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

you're so stoic, while that's often a good thing, I think this dog really needs to hear more enthusiasm from you to feel confidence in what she's doing. 

I still think you need to have Emma do just two random positions for now as she seems to fail when you give a third command.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Anne Vaini said:


> Here's the next one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4bfME-Itmk


That is a lot better. To improve I'd reward right on the table as she is already thinking of leaving the table before you release her. Make taking the position itself the exciting part not the leaving the table part.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I agree with the table thing.

I have noticed with the positive clicker sort of training, that dogs do this sort of stuff. Esko downs, and scoots backwards right now. I just don't reward it, and try again.

I really like the end result of positive, but the middle is a pain in the ass. Buko did some of the same behavior, and Ann Pugtenant's dog Edoc, does a big sideways thing on the stand.

You just don't reward. Kinda like the end video, where she was pathetic looking. I don't reward there. It does happen........well, Buko never looks like that unless I have cracked him in the head, or he had one of his shit in the crate moments.

Esko does that ears back silliness. However, unlike Buko, he seems to understand things a lot quicker in different situations. Buko was the dog that I could have said three random words and he would have done the change of positions at the point you are at now.

I do have one question, did you teach her to back up ?? It really looks like it.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Sorry, the last video with the box is crap. Don't take her off, and use deelicious food to lure her if she gets lost. No on and off the box. That will cut down on your dogs movement.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

1 to 10 with 1 being the highest, how sensitive is this dog ?? To you specifically.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> 1 to 10 with 1 being the highest, how sensitive is this dog ?? To you specifically.


9 or 10. I look at her wrong and she rolls on her back. She is not a good dog for me, but she is a good dog. I would totally give her away right now. I love her, but I am not the right handler for her. My other dog is perfect for me but with Emma around, I don't have time to work with him hardly at all.

I did teach the straight line backing.

OK. I'll go try this again. Keep her on the box. Use collar and YUMMY food is she gets too sensitive. And use the tug otherwise. And try be more active. Only 2 positions in a row. Ignore the offered behaviors. Got it. Back soon...


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Anne Vaini said:


> 9 or 10. I look at her wrong and she rolls on her back. She is not a good dog for me, but she is a good dog.




thanks why I said to be more enthusiastic when you train THAT dog. She mirrors your energy and in this case it's a hindrance for you. The dog isn't having fun and it doesn't appear that you are either.

I have a total POS nerve bag in the house. She was so sensitive that when I made eye contact she would quickly walk away or roll over on her back. I trained by employing very short sessions that were most play. I was sure to always be moving, my energy and attitude was up and I could see was working in the same way.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Chris Michalek said:


> thanks why I said to be more enthusiastic when you train THAT dog. She mirrors your energy and in this case it's a hindrance for you. The dog isn't having fun and it doesn't appear that you are either.
> 
> I have a total POS nerve bag in the house. She was so sensitive that when I made eye contact she would quickly walk away or roll over on her back. I trained by employing very short sessions that were most play. I was sure to always be moving, my energy and attitude was up and I could see was working in the same way.


She did it first. :lol: Actually that reaction was IMMEDIATE as soon as I put the chain collar on her. Don't even need a leash.  I was taught to continure to put pressure on a dog that is trying to shut down. Not fun.

IF I can do this without a collar, I'd prefer it greatly. I don't want to have to get her off a collar later. A collar does stop the spontaneious rehearsl though.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CiEZUvI1ELE


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Anne Vaini said:


> OK. I'll go try this again. Keep her on the box. Use collar and YUMMY food is she gets too sensitive. And use the tug otherwise. And try be more active. Only 2 positions in a row. Ignore the offered behaviors. Got it. Back soon...


Ignore her sensitivity and offered behaviours continue luring keep using your IB and only reward either with tug or food for holding a position, on the box at this point. 



Anne Vaini said:


> IF I can do this without a collar, I'd prefer it greatly. I don't want to have to get her off a collar later. A collar does stop the spontaneious rehearsl though.


When I have trained bite work like the DOH. I have had to take off and on the prong collar repeatably to reinforce her to follow my leg and not follow the decoy after the conversation. I know it is a pain to keep switching off and on the collar but it reinforces that 'she' still has to do the task even without the collar or else it isn't the threat when the collar is on it is the threat that the collar *will *go on, which is the desired response. It sounds like Emma is collar wise and using not having it on to give you the finger, as she knows you are just shooting blanks. So move her thought process to not the collar itself but the threat of it going on. That will require repetition and tenacity on your part.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Anne Vaini said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CiEZUvI1ELE


I'll throw my two cents in here

Get Michael Ellis DVD's on How to train with Food and How to Play Tug if you don't have them already

Get a real tug that you can immobilize so the dog can't self
reward.

Get a stable box, not one that wobbles like this one does.
Unstable surface is fine for proofing but not for training.

Separate the place command from the change of position
Slow down and stay closer to reward. Command a change of position and then slowly feed feed feed while using your
continuation word. I would limit the tug play and work more with food. Just use the tug for the end of the session. The
dog gets too excite with the tug and loses focus IMHO


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

OK. I did a little test to see if anyone was paying attention, and of course, you failed. : )

On my scale, 9 or 10 would be a sturdy ****er. Attention to detail is important. Notice how I caught the backing up thing ?? 

WHO IS THE TRAINING MASTER ?? 

MuuuuuuuuuHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

You are, Jeff. :lol:

I just tried again and got video of it. It seems improved? I see a bunch of painfully obvious "bad dog trainer" moments though!! :blush:

But she is most definitely throw-shy in addition to hand-shy. WTH happened to my dog?! I guess I'm just glad I have her back now!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kLNvo--So8

Am I screwing up her future long jump?


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

looks better. 

Why do you hide the tug from the dog?

at :45 I would have made a huge deal out of the session and played tug with the dog. 

you might want to have the dog come to you for the treat. The box seems to create pressure for the dog so give her some relief and let her come to you for the reward and then it's back to work on the box.

Work on your timing. at :21 you could have create success by rewarding the instant she went down instead you allowed her to fail. Stop with the double commands.

At 1:30 you should have reward right away. You gave a series of verbal corrections, the dog finally did what you wanted and then you gave another command that Emma screwed up again. 

More enthusiasm, quicker rewards and short successful session on the box will really help this dog gain confidence. You gave more corrections than rewards to the dog during the entire session. That doesn't seem like much fun to me.

You really want to do French Ring with this dog?


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

I want the dog dead tired, both physically and mentally. So she stops destroying crates and being a terrible PITA. I want to train 2 FR exercises. So may as well go for the rest of it too as long as I have her.

My other dog CAN'T do this stuff, and his brain is totally busy doing his job, so no fun and games with him!


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## Justin Gannon (Nov 17, 2008)

Doing change of positions, you never reward the dog from the front. You always want the dog to think the reward is coming from behind them. when the exsercise is done correctly walk to the dog and throw a tug behind them. this helps with the creeping. when my dog finishes the exercise, i actually walk behind the dog to reward him. hope this helps.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Justin Gannon said:


> Doing change of positions, you never reward the dog from the front. You always want the dog to think the reward is coming from behind them. when the exsercise is done correctly walk to the dog and throw a tug behind them. this helps with the creeping. when my dog finishes the exercise, i actually walk behind the dog to reward him. hope this helps.


The dog creeps BACKWARDS.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

OK. Today MUCH, MUCH better!  Thanks for picking at me. We're almost up to were she should have been 2 years ago. :lol:

I switched to a flat place marker and back to food. Started at sending to place. One position at place, and built up from there.

Figured out she is not fluent in down to sit! So ending each with down to sit before the reward. This will also keep her from coming forward out of the stand. I was ending sit to stand before.

In other news, she is breaking out of crates again and destroying things again.  :evil:


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Anne Vaini said:


> OK. Today MUCH, MUCH better!  Thanks for picking at me. We're almost up to were she should have been 2 years ago. :lol:
> 
> I switched to a flat place marker and back to food. Started at sending to place. One position at place, and built up from there.
> 
> ...


I latch my leash on to the wire to keep crates closed when I want to be sure they stay in there.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Chris Michalek said:


> I latch my leash on to the wire to keep crates closed when I want to be sure they stay in there.


Wire crates last a day. She is in a new plastic crate. She has escaped 4 or 5 times in a week. I reinfroce the door with plexiglass, but she broke that off of this crate too. She is missing teeth and has chipped up teeth from this.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Anne Vaini said:


> Wire crates last a day. She is in a new plastic crate. She has escaped 4 or 5 times in a week. I reinfroce the door with plexiglass, but she broke that off of this crate too. She is missing teeth and has chipped up teeth from this.


\
yuck. You need an aluminum crate. When the Mali was younger he absolutely hated the crate and escaped a few times, one time in particular, he got half way out and one of the bent wires gashed him in the side so bad that he needed three stitches. 

Since we started working on a regular basis(we're taking a year ago) and I got another crate for the truck he really calmed down. I don't know if he stated associating being in the crate with something fun to follow or what but now he's totally fine in any crate unless you have a sleeve or suit.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Anne Vaini said:


> Wire crates last a day. She is in a new plastic crate. She has escaped 4 or 5 times in a week. I reinfroce the door with plexiglass, but she broke that off of this crate too. She is missing teeth and has chipped up teeth from this.


I take it that she's not good outside of the crate?


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Nicole Stark said:


> I take it that she's not good outside of the crate?


She's great if you don't mind the other dogs injured, her getting an obstruction and destroying the house. #-o


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Anne Vaini said:


> She's great if you don't mind the other dogs injured, her getting an obstruction and destroying the house. #-o


I guess that would be a no then. I got my first dog (a pit) at 12 and simply kept her outside when I went to school or over to friends. I'm originally from southern WI, and the winters are less harsh there these days from what family members tell me, so I don't think I'd have a problem doing that again if I had a dog who for whatever reason would not be properly behaved in the house while I was away. Is this not an option for her?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Anne Vaini said:


> Wire crates last a day. She is in a new plastic crate. She has escaped 4 or 5 times in a week. I reinfroce the door with plexiglass, but she broke that off of this crate too. She is missing teeth and has chipped up teeth from this.


I feel you
Belatucadrus eats plastic and bends wire crates (when he's at home) He's better in a airline kennel in the car, but still has chewed a little bit. At home he is in Pro Select steel cage on wheels


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

New video...

I switched the view so y'all can focus on my mistakes, not so much on what she is doing.

She has a hard time with the down to sit. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0oTwZo8hec


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Ya, much improved. Good job. She seems more confident and her attitude has improved noticeably. I'm not sure but it seems that she responds a bit better without her name preceding each command. Does she or did it just appear that way around this time?


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Nicole Stark said:


> Ya, much improved. Good job. She seems more confident and her attitude has improved noticeably. I'm not sure but it seems that she responds a bit better without her name preceding each command. Does she or did it just appear that way around this time?


Yes, she does respond better. I use a certain pitch for each cue, and when I precede with her name she can hear the interval. That's my theory anyhow.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Nicole Stark said:


> Ya, much improved. Good job. She seems more confident and her attitude has improved noticeably. I'm not sure but it seems that she responds a bit better without her name preceding each command. Does she or did it just appear that way around this time?


Well that's a good thing as the rules require a non use of the dogs name .. 



NARA rulebook said:


> _3.10.5 After the judge’s authorization, the handler will command the positions to the dog without
> using the dog’s name. The deputy judge will give the positions to the handler in a low
> voice, using the first letter of each position. (Chapitre 3, p. 34, Exercice des positions)
> _


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I assumed that might be the case, that's why I used the difference in Emma's responses this time around to bring it up. I was kinda hoping that would lead somewhere. But I haven't any experience with FR to know what the rules are and thus felt it better to not make the suggestion outright. I figured one of you guys who knew better would/should set that straight.


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## Megan Bays (Oct 10, 2008)

Anne Vaini said:


> She has a hard time with the down to sit.


When you have this kind of problem, do you just do more repetitions and/or help lure the dog into the positions? Or something else?


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Megan McCallister said:


> When you have this kind of problem, do you just do more repetitions and/or help lure the dog into the positions? Or something else?


I assume I haven't taught it to fluency. I tend to get lost in the positions because I think of it as training:

Sit to Stand
Sit to Down
Stand to Sit
Stand to Down
Down to Sit
Down to Stand

Most of my focus ends up being on sit to stand and down to stand to down to stand... I don't know if you can hear it in the video, but I was giving her encouragement to move up into the sit each time an was trying to reward after down to sit.

Se isn't seeming to require a lure, but she needs a little bit of verbal help yet and a higher rate of reward.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Now that I feel like I'm able to move forward on positions, can you pick apart her heeling?

This is from 2008, but it is unchanged:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvLynTLexoI


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Your heeling with her looks good. But you certainly weren't exaggerating about her being hand shy. I noticed she reacted at least on three occasions to your hands.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Nicole Stark said:


> Your heeling with her looks good. But you certainly weren't exaggerating about her being hand shy. I noticed she reacted at least on three occasions to your hands.


I think shw was born that way. I had a 1/2 sister to her that was also hand shy. Died at 10 months old fro a health condition though, so I never got to see how it would play out.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I had two pit bitches that were similar to your Emma, both I received from others at 6 months and 2 years of age. My experience with a number of others pit bitches suggests that this isn't uncommon in that breed; either that, or a surprising number of rehomed pitty girls have been physically harmed by their original owners. I can very much relate to what you say about her and appear to be dealing with. I find the males to be far better balanced. Not saying there aren't nice pit females, there are but many also are a little odd - for lack of a better word to describe them.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Nicole Stark said:


> I find the males to be far better balanced. Not saying there aren't nice pit females, there are but many also are a little odd - for lack of a better word to describe them.


A little odd .... yes. Redefines the word b*tch for me. :lol:


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Received a new muzzle today. It fits her MUCH better!

The muzzle training is a little funny. She FREEZES, giving me little to reward. So I started from zero, just having her put her nose into the muzzle for a little longerat a time.

We eventually did get a sit and come-to-heel while she wore the muzzle. 

It was much improved over last time!

I am not having any luck with putting food into the muzzle. I get it in, she tries to eat it and pushes it out the bottom. Go figure.

I need her to look up at me for her heeling in the muzzle. She was getting so that she would take a step. But instead of turing her head up, she was just rolling her eyes up to look at me and drooping her head. Maybe good clicker timing will improve that?

You'd think a muzzle was killing her.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

I decided to just leave the d*mn muzzle on her when she isn't crated. Much improved already. And she's subdued so acting like a normal dog. Sweet!! O


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