# Puppy-male or female and why



## vicki dickey

My best friend just bred her champion bitch that I love to a great champion dog and the litter is due late May. I wasnt in the market for a puppy but it will be the last time she is bred so I decided to take one. There will be several colors to chose from but that is not an issue to me-the sex is and how to judge its temperment at a young age. I have owned great females and great males and I have had some in each sex not so great. Does anyone have a method they use to choose a puppy or do you use the " let the puppy pick you method" or is it all just a crap shoot? Girls over boys or visa versa and why. And anything else you can think of that might make the decision easier. Thank you.


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## Edward Egan

I'd have to ask what your intended purpose of the dog is?
What breed?


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## maggie fraser

It would help if folks k new you had a plan for the dog.

Why is this question in the lounge ? It's a free for all in here ya know . I hope Lee hasn't had too many Easter Coco Loco's if/ when he sees this!


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## Harry Keely

I would have to ask do you think you are going to get a champion just becasue the parents are blah blah blah ( not saying that genetics dont help ) - but a title doesnt change the dna makeup of a dog, oh yea Happy Easter;-)


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## vicki dickey

Sorry I thought everyone knew I was the Australian Shepherd lover and obedience was my favorite dog activity. Titles do say some things about a dog although I know breeding two champions together doesnt mean you will get even one from the litter. I know both parents and love them both for their temperment, how they are put together and their intelligence=that they have the titles tells me I am not the only one to think they are lovely dogs. I have to believe the puppies will be nice or at least have a good shot of being nice. I did not write to cause any conflict on any issue. I just asked how you pick a puppy out of a litter-what you look for -what you dont want to see-anything that helps you make that choice. I think down deep it is near impossible to pick a puppy and know it will be this or that but then maybe someone out there has some knowledge and has made some good choices and if so I would like to know the scoop.


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## Don Turnipseed

Get the jump on the preventaive bandwagon and get a female so there is no chance of a monorchid. Will still need a staple job to be safe, regardless of sex.What else can we prevent before the pups hit the ground


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## Don Turnipseed

Vicki, also, if you pick a male get him neutered to prevent possible testicular cancer. If a female, spay to prevent mammary cancer. Also, it is a tough question to answer without first seeing an ultrasound. Good luck and will be anxiously awaiting your next query. Happy Easter.


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## Sara Waters

Vicki, if you dont have a gender preference I would just wait and see when the pups arrive and have developed a litte so you get to see their personalities. You can spemd a bit of time with them especially if your breeder is a friend. For obedience my preference is for females but that is just me. You also have 2 boys already from memory. I also like puppies that are outgoing and active, dont squirm overly when you pick them up (calm for sheep work) but squirming iS probably good for agility and obedience LOL and will look you in the eye. Pups can be crapshot but most of mine have turned out as I expected from picking them as pups.

Good luck. I sometimes get the urge myself for another pup but common sense usually prevails LOL as I already have enough young dogs to train.

I am assuming the titles are conformation titles or are they obedience champion titles? If they are conformation titles I would also look at the parents work ethic and motivation as certainly that is required for obedience. I have a BC from show champion titles and lovely dog that she is she really lacks the work ethic of my working breds. This obviously doesnt always follow but just my experience with my dog.


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## vicki dickey

Sara I have also heard that females were better in obedience and I was leaning in that direction. And yes I will be spending a lot of time with the puppies so I can get a good idea of disposition. Both parents have conformation, obedience titles and the mom has agility titles as well. I admit I am busy training and showing the two boys but since it will be my last chance for a pup out of this mating I can make the time.
Sara I wanted to tell you that Zak has calmed down a lot in the hormone department and showing him has once again become easy=he will be 2 years in a month. I am waiting to see if Indy becomes as bad as Zak when he is a year old. Indy only has the one testicle and is going to be neutered after his growth plates close-probably around 18 months of age.


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## Bob Scott

"Two Champions"!
Show Champions? What do you expect to get out of that? The Aussies have had a huge split between working and show since back in the early 80s, at least. 
How a male or female work in obedience is more about your skills and leadership then it is the sex of the dog.


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## Joby Becker

Champions of what?


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## Peter Cavallaro

Being champions


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## Tammy St. Louis

show champions guys, Vikki is not looking for the top working auzzie in the world, she enjoys showing conformation and doing ob and rally trails if i am correct, so she is trying for a nice dog, nice for her, just because the dog has show parents doenst mean the dog wont work for ob, i have had a few of them , and really nice working ob prospects..

Male female doesnt matter, its the individual dog that is what to look for ,


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## vicki dickey

Thanks Tammy you are correct. Whats so wrong with being a champion anyway guys? One is a Grand Champion in conformation and the other is just a few points away from Grand Champion. Both are conformation dogs and both have obedience titles and one has agility titles as well. They look good, are smart and what I really like are the dispositions of these two dogs. Thats why a pup out of these two "champions" is of interest to me.
Australian Shepherds are split into working and show -the working lines are those that look like the orginal aussie while the show lines have more bone, more coat and size. The show lines still have the intelligence and I find they do not have as much aussie reserve. If I were choosing an aussie to work livestock or I was huge in agility trialing I would choose a pup from the working lines because I think they have more endurance and are more agile than their showdog counterparts-that is just my opinion and I am sure many would argue that. To me it only makes sense that the smaller boned dog can be quicker and more agile-like gymnists in the olympics. And if I wanted a working dog I would definately prefer the working coat over a heavy thick showcoat. But I am into showing and if they arent showing they live the good life in the house with us.
I know training obedience has been easy with my boys but my very first aussie was a female that to me picked things up a tad quicker and was there with me all the time. My last two pups were boys because they came into my life but I didnt pick them out of a litter. I am leaning towards a girl but who knows.
Thanks to you who have written although no one seems to have a definitive method of choosing a pup.


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## Maren Bell Jones

vicki dickey said:


> Thanks Tammy you are correct. Whats so wrong with being a champion anyway guys? One is a Grand Champion in conformation and the other is just a few points away from Grand Champion. Both are conformation dogs and both have obedience titles and one has agility titles as well. They look good, are smart and what I really like are the dispositions of these two dogs. Thats why a pup out of these two "champions" is of interest to me.
> Australian Shepherds are split into working and show -the working lines are those that look like the orginal aussie while the show lines have more bone, more coat and size. The show lines still have the intelligence and I find they do not have as much aussie reserve. If I were choosing an aussie to work livestock or I was huge in agility trialing I would choose a pup from the working lines because I think they have more endurance and are more agile than their showdog counterparts-that is just my opinion and I am sure many would argue that. To me it only makes sense that the smaller boned dog can be quicker and more agile-like gymnists in the olympics. *And if I wanted a working dog I would definately prefer the working coat over a heavy thick showcoat. But I am into showing and if they arent showing they live the good life in the house with us.*
> I know training obedience has been easy with my boys but my very first aussie was a female that to me picked things up a tad quicker and was there with me all the time. My last two pups were boys because they came into my life but I didnt pick them out of a litter. I am leaning towards a girl but who knows.
> Thanks to you who have written although no one seems to have a definitive method of choosing a pup.


So umm...considering the name of this forum...why are you asking on here again?


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## Peter Cavallaro

Another working breed another split, on the bright side we get more chanpions this way, champions of what you ask:

Champions at being more like the breed they split away from than the breed itself ...eh, crazy huh.

Scumbag breed destroyers.

Oh but ruining breeds makes some people HAPPY, so let them play right.


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## rick smith

Vicki...
think about it a minute ...
re: "Thanks to you who have written although no one seems to have a definitive method of choosing a pup."

- does it really matter to YOU how others pick THEIR pups ?
- would you take their advice and choose a pup "their" way ?
,,,,,,imo if you answer yes to either Q you lack confidence in your own dog sense and abilities, which i don't think is the case (and sure hope not) 

would you rather get a "champion" out of the box that was a piece of cake or a dog you could help achieve more than others thought was possible with it ? which dog would give you more satisfaction ?

anyway, i suspect you're gonna pick the one that looks the cutest and gives you the most attention when you interact with the litter no matter what your "pre-planned puppy evaluation criteria" is


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## Don Turnipseed

At this point, it is still going to be a roll of the dice without seeing an ultrasound of the pups


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## vicki dickey

Gee Maren-not sure what you meant by that comment= did you mean a show dog is not a working dog so they shouldnt be talked about on this forum called Working Dog Forum? 

Rick I was curious how people choose their puppies and asked-I didnt say I would use their method or not-but you never know what you can learn from other people's experiences. And just like I take all ideas in consideration in training I would have done the same here. And honestly just because the parents have titles or championships doesnt mean you do not have to take the same time and effort in training that puppy as any other puppy. A pedigree or bloodline does give you a good idea what its potential COULD be but the rest is up to the owner. And all puppies are cute-I look for a heck of a lot more than cute.

Don you are so right-but it is too soon yet for the ultrasound.


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## rick smith

only seen dog shows on youtube or TV and don't know ant show people, but would this be an accurate description of how a show dog gets to be registered forever as a show conformation "champion" ? (as in "best of whatever")

it's taken to a dog show
a judge meets/greets it and feels it up a few seconds
it trots around in circles a few seconds
a judge falls in love with it and feels it's intrinsically "better" than all the rest

or does it take more than that ???
lastly, does the training involve more than getting it used to being handle and developing a show trot style ??


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## rick smith

i posted too quick :-( 
... forgot about the grooming requirements which probably take more effort than the training since the dog must be impeccably groomed
- of course i'm being somewhat sarcastic but i REALLY don't get it


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## Peter Cavallaro

Man, u mock these people, more than one judge gotta feels that way, and u might have to drive to the regional events with less competition to build points, and the training involved in having a double handler to give the dog an active look as it trots in a circle on 'trial' day... the grooming science.

Dont be trivialising the effort.


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## vicki dickey

Well Rick what you saw was a Conformation class or show where trained judges judge a dog on a breed standard-looking for overall appearance and structure- an indication of their ability to produce quality puppies. Disposition is also important in the conformation ring. You cant train correct gait, structure, bite, etc. You might see conformation as a nothing class but it has its value. I personally am not big in conformation showing but I know it takes a good handler to show/train a dog correctly for it and if it helps promote dogs that are sound it cant be all bad.

Dog shows can also have classes in obedience and rally with different levels -Novice-open-utility or Novice-advance and excellant. Some have agility as well.

I train all my dogs for conformation, obedience (all levels), rally (all levels) and agility. They are great pets as well as show dogs.I consider them a form of working dogs. I think the Working Dog Forum does as well or they wouldnt have forums within labeled obedience, agility etc.


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## Maren Bell Jones

vicki dickey said:


> Gee Maren-not sure what you meant by that comment= did you mean a show dog is not a working dog so they shouldnt be talked about on this forum called Working Dog Forum?


Exactly...you want a show line, not a working line, of a breed not all that many of us have. If I wanted opinions on picking a working dog pup, I wouldn't ask people on a show/pet forum. Just sayin'. :-k


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## James Downey

First, Sex of the dog does not determine if it's going to have great Obedience. The only thing sex tells you, is one gets pregnant and the other gets females pregnant. I like females, I believe because I simply am a sucker for the girls. I display more paternal behaviors for girls. Boys, I treat em' like boys. 

So, that's preferance thing. Also, as a breeder, And also a friend to some. I would pick a gender early....because it puts a burden on my friend by me being indecisive. I just think it's more proper. 

As for picking a "good" pup. I mean there are obvious pups....if I throw a rag in a pen and one runs for the dog house....That's a no brainer....and on the contrary if thier is one that see's me waving the rag and climbs the baby gate to get it...another no brainer. But I think these pups are rare, I think most pups are just normal pups, and some people have all these things they do to pick a pup. I think puppies from good parents...chances are your going to get good pups, so puppy selection for me is just the dog I am most attracted to. I want to see them chase a ball, bite a rag and eat food. I would like them to come up to me. I just do not want to see what I would call irrational fear. Some apprehension is expected, but once I get on the floor and show them I am safe, I would like to see them drop thier fear, not slowly check me out...but jump in my lap and bite my clothes. I am sure if you go sit in a pile of puppies, there will be one that you are attracted to. That's your pup. I see people get on this kick about getting the best pup. And they put so much pressure on themselves to get a good one, and on the pup to be a good one...that many pups whom if were "grown" and not "tested" would have been groomed into great dogs. Instead they have that parent you see at little league games putting amazing amounts of pressure on a child to win. This is an exciting thing, trust your instincts, and remember they are just babies.


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## Chris McDonald

James Downey said:


> As for picking a "good" pup. I mean there are obvious pups....if I throw a rag in a pen and one runs for the dog house....That's a no brainer....and on the contrary if thier is one that see's me waving the rag and climbs the baby gate to get it...another no brainer.
> 
> There is a lot of funny stuff in this tread but I think this wins, even sillier than the ultrasound stuff.


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## leslie cassian

Once upon a time, function determined form. Then a bunch of people got together and decided what that ideal form was, so they started breeding for it. If a little of one characteristic was good, like a nice fluffy coat, then a lot of it must be better. Pretty soon, form became all that was looked at and all that was important, and little more than lip service was paid to those ugly, utilitarian dogs that still did the job they were once intended to. So a perfect ear set and correct tail carriage took precedence over a desire to herd, hunt, retrieve or do anything functional. 

And you wonder why working dog people don't embrace show lines and see conformation showing as a worthy goal?


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## Peter Cavallaro

Leslie yr wrong, the show folks judge the dog against the standard to maintain the purity of the breed and thus ensure its functionality.


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## leslie cassian

My bad. 

Love the way the standard has been interpreted for GSDs. One of the reasons I chose a Mal. So ugly the show folks haven't really bothered with them much. That'll all change soon enough and I can't wait to see the breed prettied up a little, fattened up some and mellowed down to be suitable for the show ring.


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## Peter Cavallaro

The mal is already appearing as a show dog, the rot has already started, just hasn't had the time to spread as did, rotts, dobes, gsd......

Those black belgians are hugely popular in show, prolly why u never see one working.

Show breeder told me only difference in the belgians is the coats, clip them and you have the same dog.


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## James Downey

Chris McDonald said:


> James Downey said:
> 
> 
> 
> As for picking a "good" pup. I mean there are obvious pups....if I throw a rag in a pen and one runs for the dog house....That's a no brainer....and on the contrary if thier is one that see's me waving the rag and climbs the baby gate to get it...another no brainer.
> 
> There is a lot of funny stuff in this tread but I think this wins, even sillier than the ultrasound stuff.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWINtUCshxY
> 
> You stuttering prick ya.
Click to expand...


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## Don Turnipseed

leslie cassian said:


> Once upon a time, function determined form. Then a bunch of people got together and decided what that ideal form was, so they started breeding for it. If a little of one characteristic was good, like a nice fluffy coat, then a lot of it must be better. Pretty soon, form became all that was looked at and all that was important, and little more than lip service was paid to those ugly, utilitarian dogs that still did the job they were once intended to. So a perfect ear set and correct tail carriage took precedence over a desire to herd, hunt, retrieve or do anything functional.
> 
> And you wonder why working dog people don't embrace show lines and see conformation showing as a worthy goal?


And now it has progressed to chasing towels and balls Leslie. Now that is functionality at it's best. Not a lot of difference really.


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## Don Turnipseed

Chris McDonald said:


> James Downey said:
> 
> 
> 
> As for picking a "good" pup. I mean there are obvious pups....if I throw a rag in a pen and one runs for the dog house....That's a no brainer....and on the contrary if thier is one that see's me waving the rag and climbs the baby gate to get it...another no brainer.
> 
> There is a lot of funny stuff in this tread but I think this wins, even sillier than the ultrasound stuff.
> 
> 
> 
> LMAO. Cut me some slack Chris, the ultrasound stuff was supposed to be silly. On the other hand, James was as serious as he can get. let see an ultra sound.....let see a video.....get it?
Click to expand...


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## James Downey

Don Turnipseed said:


> And now it has progressed to chasing towels and balls Leslie. Now that is functionality at it's best. Not a lot of difference really.


At 8 weeks old....it sure is. And actually it's the biting and griping of towels that's looked at. As you have found out it takes a little something special for a dog to stand in conflict with a human being whether real or even just precieved.

But I got 79.00 hound/mastiff mix from the pound with a few KIA's on the local wildlife to his credit...So, I am not so sure how much selective breeding it takes to get that.


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## vicki dickey

What constitutes a working dog? Obedience, agility, rally and even conformation dogs all are trained and often become therapy dogs, etc. Some of these "show dogs" work cattle during the week, get a bath and show conformation on the weekend. I think a working dog is a hunting dog, a herding dog, a protection dog or a show dog trained to do the job his owner trained him to do. 
I thought this forum considered obedience and agility dogs a working dog. That is why I come on here to ask questions and learn training ideas-my mistake.


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## Peter Cavallaro

No, no mistake, the agility, rally and obed forums are the most frequented forums here. followed by herding and hunting.


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## Ingrid Rosenquist

vicki dickey said:


> Australian Shepherds are split into working and show -the working lines are those that look like the orginal aussie while the show lines have more bone, more coat and size. The show lines still have the intelligence and I find they do not have as much aussie reserve. If I were choosing an aussie to work livestock or I was huge in agility trialing I would choose a pup from the working lines because I think they have more endurance and are more agile than their showdog counterparts-that is just my opinion and I am sure many would argue that. To me it only makes sense that the smaller boned dog can be quicker and more agile-like gymnists in the olympics. And if I wanted a working dog I would definately prefer the working coat over a heavy thick showcoat. But I am into showing and if they arent showing they live the good life in the house with us.


Vicki -

While I cannot speak to where other individuals on this thread are coming from, I do believe that the above quote is part of the issue. You are openly acknowledging that you are choosing to get a dog from lines that have been altered throughout the years to be less functional at what consists of the Australian Shepherd's heritage. Most of the members of this board when looking for a puppy are focused on getting a dog that is structurally, mentally, and temperamentally sound to do the job they were bred to do. While some of the evaluation techniques individuals used when choosing a working puppy might transfer many might not as in my experience "show" lines in various breeds mature differently. In other words, the confidence that one might require in a 7 week old working puppy might need more time to show itself in a puppy that comes from show lines. This is just an example and not meaning to be an inference that "show" lines lack confidence. 

FWIW, I actually DO show my working dogs in the breed ring. In fact, I am going to Denver this weekend for a breed show. My breed does not have the split that Australian Shepherds, German Sherpherds, etc do but I still believe that if individuals who are serious about performance do not show in the breed ring, all the judges are going to see is the alternative. With that said, it is not always easy but I eventually finish my dogs in the breed ring and I do not expect other performance people to feel the same way I do. However, I will never compromise working ability to show in the breed ring and whether you believe it to be unfair or not I think that individuals here could infer from the above quote that you are willing to compromise working ability. That is your choice but just be aware that the audience here probably finds that about as appealing as preacher in a house of ill repute ;-)

My advice is that you speak with your breeder friend and individuals that have the lines of the sire and dam and find out how the line(s) mature. What were the sire and dam like as puppies? If they have produced before, ask about how the puppies matured. Particularly if there was an outstanding performance prospect previously produced, (say that five times fast  ) what was that puppy like at 7 weeks or so? 

At the end of the day I think that puppy evaluations are more gut instinct than anything else. One well known trainer that I spoke to told me that he did not believe in structured puppy evaluations (Volhard, etc) because he found it tended to "label" the puppy's personality from one snapshot in time. He preferred to match the puppy's personality to the prospective owner's personality to give it the best chance at shining. 

If you have enough experience in choosing performance puppies, go with your gut. If you do not have that experience I would defer to the breeder (so long as they are familar with performance dogs) to guide as to the appropriate puppy.

Good luck in your new adventure


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## James Downey

Don Turnipseed said:


> Chris McDonald said:
> 
> 
> 
> LMAO. Cut me some slack Chris, the ultrasound stuff was supposed to be silly. On the other hand, James was as serious as he can get. let see an ultra sound.....let see a video.....get it?
> 
> 
> 
> What's silly about it Don? What's silly about that statement? There are special pups and shitters, that within seconds of seeing of them you can see something extreme in them whether it be fear so strong they will run from a towel thrown in there direction or drive so strong that they will do anything to get what they want. That was the spirit of that statement. If your too dense to read into that... Well, then call it silly. I was just trying to answer the ladies question.
> 
> BTW both of those scenrios...the thrown towel and the puppy running from it into the dog house, and the towel waved out side a pen and a puppy scaling the gate to get it....Both really happened, the first dog was selected by a breeder for a friend, he saw that when he went to pick the up...and knew the dog would never work. Trainer managed with a lot of work and time to title the dog to a Sch2. And the other was selected for climbing the gate and the owner immeditaly selected that dog....he was IMO the best Malinois I have ever seen.
Click to expand...


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## Chris McDonald

vicki dickey said:


> What constitutes a working dog? Obedience, agility, rally and even conformation dogs all are trained and often become therapy dogs, etc. Some of these "show dogs" work cattle during the week, get a bath and show conformation on the weekend. I think a working dog is a hunting dog, a herding dog, a protection dog or a show dog trained to do the job his owner trained him to do.
> I thought this forum considered obedience and agility dogs a working dog. That is why I come on here to ask questions and learn training ideas-my mistake.


Really depending how you look at it hardly any of us on here actually have working dogs. And most of those who do don’t really work them. Including me. Most just want to pretend. But you don’t even try to pretend is what the problem is. Im willing to bet your way more accomplished at handling and working a dog than Maren. But she thinks she has “working” dogs for some reason and is skilled enough to give advice on many things? In all seriousness many of us including me do believe that the whole AKC thing you are involved with really does contribute to wreaking dogs. But that’s just what I read on the internet.


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## Chris McDonald

James Downey said:


> Don Turnipseed said:
> 
> 
> 
> What's silly about it Don? What's silly about that statement? There are special pups and shitters, that within seconds of seeing of them you can see something extreme in them whether it be fear so strong they will run from a towel thrown in there direction or drive so strong that they will do anything to get what they want. That was the spirit of that statement. If your too dense to read into that... Well, then call it silly. I was just trying to answer the ladies question.
> 
> BTW both of those scenrios...the thrown towel and the puppy running from it into the dog house, and the towel waved out side a pen and a puppy scaling the gate to get it....Both really happened, the first dog was selected by a breeder for a friend, he saw that when he went to pick the up...and knew the dog would never work. Trainer managed with a lot of work and time to title the dog to a Sch2. And the other was selected for climbing the gate and the owner immeditaly selected that dog....he was IMO the best Malinois I have ever seen.
> 
> 
> 
> I think the method you believe is written in stone leaves a lot of good dogs behind, maybe even the best ones. That’s just one of many things silly about the statement. JMO
Click to expand...


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## vicki dickey

I dont know if you can blame the AKC for wrecking dogs. They set a breed standard. People are the culprits who decide to start changing the look of a dog breed. People decide that more coat looks better than a thin or fine coat and start working towards that goal while the breed standard will remain the same-the AKC didnt change the standard. I show AKC, ASCA, United Kennel and International. The dogs that win in AKC will win in ASCA or United as well so then have they all wrecked dogs? If some dog breeds have taken a turn for the worst I dont think you can blame a kennel club for it.


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## Maren Bell Jones

vicki dickey said:


> What constitutes a working dog? Obedience, agility, rally and even conformation dogs all are trained and often become therapy dogs, etc. Some of these "show dogs" work cattle during the week, get a bath and show conformation on the weekend. I think a working dog is a hunting dog, a herding dog, a protection dog or a show dog trained to do the job his owner trained him to do.
> I thought this forum considered obedience and agility dogs a working dog. That is why I come on here to ask questions and learn training ideas-my mistake.


It depends on who you ask, but I break it down into 4 categories: show/conformation, performance (obedience, agility, dock diving, disc, weight pull), working sport (protection sport, sport herding, field trials, dog sled racing), and working (police K9s, MWDs, SAR dogs, working ranch/farm dogs). The vast majority of show dogs could never do working sport or actual work either because their structure, temperament, and/or drive will not allow them to. You can get a good dog from the shelter to be an obedience or agility dog. Any dog with a halfway decent temperament can do that. But you can't pull just any dog from a shelter and make it be a police dog or SAR dog or assistance dog or whatever else. It can be done of course, but it's the exception, not the rule. Any breeder who takes showline dogs and puts a few rally, obedience, or agility titles on their dog does not make it a "working dog." I applaud them for doing so instead of just breeding cause they are perceived as pretty, but it does not make them a working dog. 

If you want a showline dog, ask the showline people, i.e.-not the WORKING Dog Forum.


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## James Downey

Chris McDonald said:


> James Downey said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think the method you believe is written in stone leaves a lot of good dogs behind, maybe even the best ones. That’s just one of many things silly about the statement. JMO
> 
> 
> 
> I think that you believe that I wrote that as a method, and albeit one written in stone is the problem. It was an example of seeing extreme behavior in 8 week old pups, I tell ya, if I throw a rag in a pen and a pup runs... I am probably done looking at that pup. You can give it a second chance if you want. And if I see a puppy climb a gate to simply bite a moving rag, I am going to take another look at that puppy. But I think pups with those extremes of behavior are rare.....
> 
> Most pups are just pups, you don't really see much till they start to grow.
> 
> The jist of that whole paragraph was, unless you see something awesome or horrible right away. picking a pup that is going to be successful is tough order. I think that for pups, all you can really ask for is just seeing some basic building block criteria, like chasing and biting a rag, chasing a ball and eating it's food with some gusto. after that it's all about growing the pup.
Click to expand...


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## vicki dickey

Maren I think we should agree to disagree. I consider my dogs who happen to have conformation titles and obedience titles (Show dogs are they) as much a working dog as a dog that hunts, a dog that herds or a dog that is used in police work.


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## Maren Bell Jones

vicki dickey said:


> Maren I think we should agree to disagree. I consider my dogs who happen to have conformation titles and obedience titles (Show dogs are they) as much a working dog as a dog that hunts, a dog that herds or a dog that is used in police work.


Sorry, but you're dead wrong if you think a dog with a CD or RN and a CH who shows on the weekends is even remotely on the same level as a police dog or SAR dog or working ranch dog. And no, you're not getting out of it that easy. I want to make you think about what you are saying. Blow drying a dog's coat and running around a ring is more work for the owner, not the dog. Doing exaggerated AKC style heeling in a sterile ring where you know exactly what to expect is not work either. No dog breed was created strictly with the goal of doing AKC obedience to help their human companion. Not true of breeds designed for hunting, sledding, herding, protection, and so on who were created for a specific purpose. Arguably the only dog breeds where conformation could be considered "work" is for froo froo toy breeds that were only meant to look pretty. Otherwise that's a huge insult to actual working dogs. 

I personally don't care if people want to do obedience or show their dog or whatever. At least they are doing something with their dog. Just don't try to pass that off as a "working" dog or think that they are "bettering the breed" just by virtue of showing it in conformation and then breeding it, especially if it's currently an actual working breed. I think you need to come out if we have a PSA trial this year in St. Louis and then tell me your showline dogs that do some obedience or agility are working dogs in the same way PSA dogs are.


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## Bob Scott

I put 5 championships in the show ring on four different terrier breeds. If they couldn't do what they were bred to do I NEVER considered them working dogs. That includes one of those terriers that was nationally ranked in AKC OB. That was a show dog that had some nice OB titles PERIOD!
Another terrier I had was one of the best working dogs I ever owned. He was also specialty winning, group placing terrier. He had a best colored dog in a "working terrier" breed show judged by terrier men from GB. He had to have a certified working title witnessed by a working terrier judge in order to qualify for those show classes.
He was also a National Specialty winning dog in the AKC breed ring. That was the very least of his accomplishments as far as I was concerned and had nothing to do with him being a "working" terrier.
Those that believe a CH in the breed ring qualifies as a working title probably should be on a show forum.


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## Chris McDonald

vicki dickey said:


> I dont know if you can blame the AKC for wrecking dogs. They set a breed standard. People are the culprits who decide to start changing the look of a dog breed. People decide that more coat looks better than a thin or fine coat and start working towards that goal while the breed standard will remain the same-the AKC didnt change the standard. I show AKC, ASCA, United Kennel and International. The dogs that win in AKC will win in ASCA or United as well so then have they all wrecked dogs? If some dog breeds have taken a turn for the worst I dont think you can blame a kennel club for it.


Who is benefiting from setting a breed standard? The dog? Read what you typed it does not mention anything at all about bettering the dogs abilities for what it was designed to be used for? Hows about breeding good dogs to good dogs, dogs that are healthy and good at what they are asked to do without regard to how high their shoulders should be. Because if the good healthy dogs shoulders are to low we should breed the un healthy dum lazy dogs because we can sell them for more…. because there shoulders are the right height. Just an example 
Psssst. I told you to just pretend more.


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## rick smith

Vicki
- don't stray off from what i posted, please 
- i wrote ONLY about show/conformation  "you" added all the extra stuff 
- please go back and read my Q's .... they were specific

i feel strongly breed standards cannot be demonstrated in a show/conformation AKC or whatever kinda "C" show ... anywhere in the world
- how much of a "breed standard" can be judged by feeling a dogs bone structure and then watching them trot in a FREAKING circle for SECONDS ??
...do NOT throw in OB, agility or anything else because that DOESN'T happen in a show ring....and NOT part of what i was talking about,,,there are hundreds of thousands of owners.dogs that do show ONLY
- imo show conformation is PURELY a subjective evaluation of anatomy and LOOKS...PERIOD, and i don't care how well qualified the judges are
- a dogs character and temperament is a HUGE part of a BREED standard, and that can NEVER be evaluated in a show ring
- and do you disagree with any of these added opinions ????
- if so, please state why ...thank you


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## Nicole Stark

vicki dickey said:


> Maren I think we should agree to disagree. I consider my dogs who happen to have conformation titles and obedience titles (Show dogs are they) as much a working dog as a dog that hunts, a dog that herds or a dog that is used in police work.


Help me understand something, when you agree to disagree, what does this aim to settle? All it seems to do is shut down the possibility that you might have an opportunity to learn and understand otherwise.

I invite you up here to do some of the work my mastiff and I do on any given weekend/extended vacation or holiday. She's not a formal hunting dog but damned if she doesn't make that her job anyway. I recognize that and indulge it by regularly traveling with her for miles through all types of terrain on an ATV to condition her accordingly. I take her down to the creek for swimming that literally goes on hours. And I also have her run her up and down hills, through sand, muck, and bogs - stuff that really zaps your strength once you've already gone 5-10 miles. 

During these outtings I work too. Here's a small sample of what I do: I pick up and drag 100 lb propane cylinders up a the ramp and load them into a trailer, the same is done with 15 gallons of gas that I remove from the boat and carry up the ramp. I help limb fallen trees, haul off brush, split and stack wood, mow acres of land and move dozens of heavy bags of grass into a dump truck which I offload onto the trails to level them out. I dig holes, help build structures, load and unload materials (drywall, OSB, shingle bundles, etc). This basically is my routine every Friday evening (May 15 - Sept 6) which starts after getting up at 3:30 am and working a full 8+ hour workday. These after hours activities begin about 15-18 hours into my day and most Fridays I am up for 21-25+ hrs at a stretch.

My point, is that for some people you need to work to live and real work often amounts to hard (physically and mentally) work. I've shown dogs in the conformation ring and nothing about that can even begin to the physical and mental thresholds that are pushed with me or my dog once we enter this other environment. You may choose to see it differently or even as the same for that matter, but from experience I know otherwise.

Where this becomes an issue for me is that you joined a forum that clearly is geared more specifically towards dogs that were/are typically physically and mentally tested in ways that most people don't have the time, nor energy, or even resources to do. I won't speak for everyone here, only myself but I vehemently disagree with your uneducated assessment of the type and amount of resources that is invested into working dogs by attempting to place them upon an equal platform. It isn't just about the actions that take place during training but an entire extension of those preparations that becomes a way of life for some.

While you may consider what you do with your dogs as work or comparable to those who work there dogs as I described, experience tells and shows me that effort and work are two entirely different things.


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## Peter Cavallaro

Vicki if yr prepared to argue this,u have missed the most obvious and biggest problem threatening the worlds dogs.

inexcusable and indefensible.


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## vicki dickey

You know guys I dont want to argue anything. Hell all I wanted to know was how people choose their puppy out of a litter and somehow it manifested into downing the AKC, what constitutes a working dog and putting down conformation exhibitors and all kinds of stuff. Everyone has the right to their own opinions and I didnt come on here to debate anything.
Trust me I know there are working dogs out there that truly work. Just like there are people out there that have a stressful job or a physical job or a job sitting behind a desk. They are all jobs regardless of the level of intensity. I am saying that my dogs are doing the jobs that they have been given -they are working the job I gave them to do -and therefore they are working dogs. Just like all those people out there are working people whether they build bridges or sit behind a computer or sell stuff on a phone.
Could my dogs be a SAR dog-I would bet they could-but that is not the job they were handed to perform.
I dont think a conformation dog is a working dog but I think those dogs trialing in obedience and agility deserve credit for the work they are doing. JUST MY OPINION>okay? But this whole subject came up because I was told my puppy question didnt belong on this forum. If this question wasnt right for this forum then I would have to start questioning other questions I have seen on this forum as well.

It was just a simple question asked by a person excited over a new dog member to be. And it was picked apart until it became all of the above. Unbelievable.


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## maggie fraser

If it is such a simple question, why don't you simply answer it yourself ? Why post it on the board for discussion?

You _have_ to be a wind up Vikki :-D.


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## vicki dickey

Well Maggie since it was such a simple question why couldnt it be answered simply?
And if you read my question I wanted to know how OTHER people choose a puppy. I already know how I chose one. 
Not sure what you mean by me having to be a wind up or I would have answered that or you.


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## Don Turnipseed

Ok Vicki, you have now paid for your question. Here is the real answer on what to look for in a working pup. Don't look at any particular pup.....watch how the pups react to each other. The pups themselves can tell you more about each pup than a person can figure out by watching them. There may be several good uns so it takes practice.


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## Joby Becker

vicki dickey said:


> I dont know if you can blame the AKC for wrecking dogs. They set a breed standard. People are the culprits who decide to start changing the look of a dog breed. People decide that more coat looks better than a thin or fine coat and start working towards that goal while the breed standard will remain the same-the AKC didnt change the standard. I show AKC, ASCA, United Kennel and International. The dogs that win in AKC will win in ASCA or United as well so then have they all wrecked dogs? If some dog breeds have taken a turn for the worst I dont think you can blame a kennel club for it.


the akc does NOT set the standards..

It is whichever "breed club" that takes the power grab, and gets to the AKC first...

it is the very structure of the AKC, that allows breeds to be ruined, they are the facilitator that allow people that mostly do not do anything work related with their dogs, to make and change breed standards of working breeds. Once a breed gains AKC recognition in the USA, it is in the hands of the AKC show breeders, and unfortunately the AKC becomes the authority on the breed, and facilitates the changing direction of the breeds evolution, in every case, the tightening of the standards, and changes made for cosmetic or fancy point issues, for asthetic purposes, detract from its functionality.

THe funniest thing is too watch a dog show, and talk about the function of the "breed", almost in a historical sense, but imply that the dogs are capable of performing those functions, and even pointing out phenotypical modifications that supposedly give the dogs the ability, when in fact the dogs you are actually looking at, are bred to look good, and perform well in a show ring for a beauty contest for the most part. With NO consideration given to the mental aspects for the most part, unless it is to make sure the dogs are more easily managed.

It is the AKC that gives "working breeds" the exposure to become more popular, and thus assures that working traits, which are not easily managed by the general pet owning population, will be watered down, or bred out completely.


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## vicki dickey

Joby you could be right or not about the AKC's part in how each breed has changed. Personally I dont like how a lot of breeds have changed in looks, temperment or abilities. But I wonder too how much outside influences affect these changes as well ie Disney's 100 Dalmations. The Dalmations got overnight popularity-more and more were bred to fill the desire to own one-more and more ended up in shelters and probably mom's were bred to sons etc to get all of those puppies and the breed took a nose dive. The AKC didnt have a thing to do with that I dont think. I think if a breed has changed -it changed because people who are breeders allowed or wanted the change, or other outside inluences encouraged the change, etc and the blame can not be put directly and only on the AKC.
But got off track again. The AKC had not a thing to do with my orginal question. My question was how do YOU pick out a puppy from a litter and I didnt care if the litter was registered AKC, United, etc or mutts.


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## Connie Sutherland

vicki dickey said:


> Well Maggie since it was such a simple question why couldnt it be answered simply?


Because you're asking it in the wrong place.

You've received some really detailed and meticulous responses. It's surprising that your answer is "I think we should agree to disagree. I consider my dogs who happen to have conformation titles and obedience titles (Show dogs are they) as much a working dog as a dog that hunts, a dog that herds or a dog that is used in police work."



_
"I personally don't care if people want to do obedience or show their dog or whatever. At least they are doing something with their dog. Just don't try to pass that off as a "working" dog or think that they are "bettering the breed" just by virtue of showing it in conformation and then breeding it, especially if it's currently an actual working breed. "_



_
"*Any breeder who takes showline dogs and puts a few rally, obedience, or agility titles on their dog does not make it a "working dog." I applaud them for doing so instead of just breeding cause they are perceived as pretty, but it does not make them a working dog. * ... If you want a showline dog, ask the showline people, i.e.-not the WORKING Dog Forum."_




_
"I put 5 championships in the show ring on four different terrier breeds. If they couldn't do what they were bred to do I NEVER considered them working dogs. *That includes one of those terriers that was nationally ranked in AKC OB. That was a show dog that had some nice OB titles PERIOD!* .... Another terrier I had was one of the best working dogs I ever owned. He was also specialty winning, group placing terrier. He had a best colored dog in a "working terrier" breed show judged by terrier men from GB. He had to have a certified working title witnessed by a working terrier judge in order to qualify for those show classes. ... He was also a National Specialty winning dog in the AKC breed ring. That was the very least of his accomplishments as far as I was concerned and had nothing to do with him being a "working" terrier. ... Those that believe a CH in the breed ring qualifies as a working title probably should be on a show forum."_



IMO, how to choose a S/L puppy is really not a topic for a working dog board.

You can see that by the replies, surely? 

All JMO!


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## Randy Allen

What 'show' means to a working dog person is distinctly different from what 'show' means to a show dog person.

In the working dog world it means show me what the dog can do.

In the show world it means what color the dog is, how long is it's fur and does it bite the judge.


There's a lot of people on this forum that could pick out a nice dog of almost any breed of your choosing Vicki, but you probably wouldn't like the dog for your purposes because show has a different meaning around here.


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## Jennifer Coulter

vicki dickey said:


> Could my dogs be a SAR dog-I would bet they could


Of course.


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## Maren Bell Jones

vicki dickey said:


> You know guys I dont want to argue anything. Hell all I wanted to know was how people choose their puppy out of a litter and somehow it manifested into downing the AKC, what constitutes a working dog and putting down conformation exhibitors and all kinds of stuff. Everyone has the right to their own opinions and I didnt come on here to debate anything.
> Trust me I know there are working dogs out there that truly work. Just like there are people out there that have a stressful job or a physical job or a job sitting behind a desk. They are all jobs regardless of the level of intensity. I am saying that my dogs are doing the jobs that they have been given -they are working the job I gave them to do -and therefore they are working dogs. Just like all those people out there are working people whether they build bridges or sit behind a computer or sell stuff on a phone.


Can you explain the historical role of how sport obedience in a ring put food on the table for the owner, moved their livestock, transported them on sleds, or guarded their property? That is a job. Obedience and agility is a sport. 



> Could my dogs be a SAR dog-I would bet they could-but that is not the job they were handed to perform.


I hear this from the show people all the time. "Oh, my dog could do that...if they were trained for it!" Riiiiight...just keep thinking that when you are working a rubble pile for hours in some place like Joplin with body parts all over the place in the 95 degree heat and no end in sight. Versus showing your dog in obedience in a nice air conditioned building on the weekend with no distractions in the obedience ring. I hear the same thing from people with a nervy fear aggressive German shepherd who think their dog could do Schutzhund..."if they were trained for it!" BTW, I'm not saying your dog could or couldn't, but you don't know until you do it.



> I dont think a conformation dog is a working dog but I think those dogs trialing in obedience and agility deserve credit for the work they are doing. JUST MY OPINION>


But...they aren't doing work. It's a sport with no basis on any historical role for the dog. They are performance dogs, not working dogs. My dog is pretty competitive at dock diving. It's a very good test of the pure athletic ability and drive of the dog. But that does NOT make him a working dog. Herding chickens in my backyard so I can sell their eggs to cover my cost of feed in a few months makes him more of a working dog than competing at the world championships in dock diving (which I hope to do this year).


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## Maren Bell Jones

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Of course.


;-)


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## Jennifer Coulter

Okay, here is me being helpful...

If I didn't care about male or female, I would just look for the most suitable pup in the litter for my needs.

Imput from the breeder will likely be important as they have seen the dogs from birth, and if you only see them the day you are picking up a pup, you may have a skewed vision.

Is it common for Aussie breeders to have a stranger (like another breeder) come and evaluate the litter? Like some kind of Volhard Puppy test? It is a peice of info for sure, but not everything to go by.

If the breeder would let me, I would personally take all the pups somewhere they have never been, and look at them one by one in a new environment. Sometimes a dog that looks super strong in the litter at home, does not look so great outside in the big bad world LOL.

For the kind of dog I "think" you are looking for, I would like to see a pup that is confident and curious in new surroundings, on various surfaces, with new people, liked to chase and bite a rag and was not afraid of loud noises. A pup that when picked up or rolled over did not struggle too much or freak the heck out.


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## vicki dickey

Maren Bell Jones said:


> ;-)


 
Just as I do not know your history-you do not know mine. When I said I think my dogs could train to be a SAR dog its because I have experience there. I didnt say my dogs could herd or be a drug dog or a police dog because I have never done any of that-I wouldnt have a clue if they could or not or what that training involves. At my age I continue to love dogs and working with them and so I do obedience competition.
Dont think there are no distractions at an obedience trial-the distractions are as varied as they are numerous.


Jennifer-I like the idea of taking them somewhere new and seeing their reactions. My breeder has done puppy tests with the last two litters and we were surprised how they really were not too accurate and they were done by people with experience. Luckily the breeder is a good friend and is the type of breeder that spends time with the puppies. She was saying that in the last litter one of the females was a little barker and her husband said we dont want to keep that one. As it happens they chose to keep that puppy and the barker has turned out to be the quiet one in their home. You just never know.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Now you're talking working dogs...what's your experience in SAR? 

I do PSA obedience where you and your dog have to step over balls, tugs, sleeves, past decoys, ignore gunfire and so on. Obedience in an AKC ring where the biggest distraction is the other dog doing the sit nearby is not the same.


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## maggie fraser

vicki dickey said:


> Luckily the breeder is a good friend and is the type of breeder that spends time with the puppies. She was saying that in the last litter one of the females was a little barker and her husband said we dont want to keep that one. As it happens they chose to keep that puppy and the barker has turned out to be the quiet one in their home. You just never know.


ROFL :lol::lol:

Maybe it lost it's voice :lol:


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Geez, now we have my SPORT is more important than your sport when all of them involve training and conditioning and they are all SPORTS. There is far more distraction and pressure in an AKC obedience trial than what's given credit here. Virginia, I believe Ingrid and a couple others give some pretty good advice. You know the venues you compete in and you have to select/test a puppy for suitability for those venues and your lifestyle and training. If you have done SAR and competed then you know what it takes to be successful so go with that. I'm glad for all the multiple venues in sports. Keeps dogs training and breeders breeding/selecting for some level of brain power. 

Terrasita


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## Sara Waters

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> There is far more distraction and pressure in an AKC obedience trial than what's given credit here.
> Terrasita


 
One country trial had a BMX trial next door with a horn sounding and the hydraulic gates crashing open every few minutes and you could hear gunshots from the rifle range down the road. Amazing many of the dogs held their nerves through the out of sight stays and other exercises.

One venue has a park next door that allows model planes flying all weekend, that is fun LOL, I was buzzed by accident in the middle of an agility run but my dog although very surprised kept her focus. 

I cant even mention all the distractions at the big Royal agriculture shows. Once a pig from the neighbouring ring escaped and ran into the obedience ring and the noise coming from the pig exhibits is deafening. I take my hat off to some of those obedience dogs. One of my dogs freaks at the sight of the big wheel towering overhead so I dont take her. 

Kids love watching the dogs work so you have to run the gauntlet of hot dogs hanging over the side of the very small ring and loud screams and the occassional escapee toddler LOL. One year when I was runing my dogs in agility they had the whip cracking exhibit next door. With a few exceptions, the majority of dogs did great. The dogs have to remain there all day so the cumulative level of noise, smells and stress is amazing and there is nowhere to exercise or warm them up properly, it is like sardines packed up tight with every other animal. 

In general one cant help be impressed by the focus and attention to detail and performance of some of those dogs under extreme conditions. There is a lot of training, dedication and prep goes into the top dogs. Some are working bred, others are showbred.

In the pure sense of the word they are not working for their living but they stand testament to the amazing working bond that can occur between human and dog in whatever venue.


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## Randy Allen

That doesn't come close to any AKC event I've witnessed.
Outside of the tracking and the ridiculously silly herding trials all others have been very very formally staid affairs.

It's not really a matter of mine is better than yours, and it doesn't mean that a person or dog can't cross over from one to other, but as a general rule they are two different worlds.
And they speak different languages. Venus and Mars so to speak.


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## Jennifer Coulter

I am personally quite happy to have people from various performance venues on this site. Wish those at the top of their game would post more actually, I am sure I would learn some stuff.


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## Don Turnipseed

Randy Allen said:


> That doesn't come close to any AKC event I've witnessed.
> Outside of the tracking and the ridiculously silly herding trials all others have been very very formally staid affairs.
> 
> It's not really a matter of mine is better than yours, and it doesn't mean that a person or dog can't cross over from one to other, but as a general rule they are two different worlds.
> And they speak different languages. Venus and Mars so to speak.


Quite right Randy. Show dogs go in front of the judges to determine if they conform to a standard in appearance. Sport dogs go in front of the judges to determine if they conform to what most perceive as a working dog. Working dogs go in front of no judges, they just work or they don't. Not much really separates the mindset of the people in show and sport....they are like peas in a pod. There is indeed a lot of difference in the dogs.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Yes, because no SAR dog, patrol dog, detection dog, MWD, or guide dog ever has to be certified by a third party to make sure they are competent and fit to work. They just show up. :lol:


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## David Ruby

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Yes, because no SAR dog, patrol dog, detection dog, MWD, or guide dog ever has to be certified by a third party to make sure they are competent and fit to work. They just show up. :lol:


I am guessing you're joking. While none of them NEED said titles or certificates to do their jobs, I thought there were:

SAR titles: I thought there were SAR certificates. I should know this, but my SAR knowledge is 2nd hand and my mind is getting old with raising my children.
KNPV titles which then lead to the dogs going into Police Work
Patrol Dogs: I know some get Ring titles on their Police dogs, not all, but some
Guide Dogs; They need 3rd party training to be certified guide dogs, don't they?

Of course I could be wrong on all that. What is really scary though is if you are _NOT_ joking, it means you are agreeing with Don.



Don Turnipseed said:


> Working dogs go in front of no judges, they just work or they don't. Not much really separates the mindset of the people in show and sport....they are like peas in a pod. There is indeed a lot of difference in the dogs.


And I am pretty sure that would mean the endtimes are near. :-o Anyway...

By the way, Don, I believe you are wrong at least if you mean the above as an absolute statement. Dogs have been evaluated forever, working or otherwise, in some ways ethical and in some ways not. It's not the same as Westminster or a SchH III, however people have had 3rd party contests to determine working ability, as in the above examples, or the Teastas Mor for Terriers, dog fights for the old fighting dogs, ratting contests, and whatever else. Even you had a 3rd party come evaluate your working dogs, and seem to have taken at least something from it. If nothing else, things like KNPV titles and the historical existence of things I've read about like Teastas Mor and ratting or rat-baiting and the like sort of imply that there have been 3rd party tests & judging of dogs and their working ability. Maybe not every type of dog, and sure you can have a hunting/baying/tracking/protection/SAR/etc. dog and NOT title or judge it, that does not mean it cannot be done. If I am wrong, feel free to let me know, it's not going to be the first and hardly the last. I just think that even though the concept of judging dogs has become (like everything else) much more standardized and point-based, it is hardly a new concept.

-Cheers


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## Terrasita Cuffie

It is a very small minority of people that utilize dogs to make a living on this forum. Yet how many sport people say they have working dogs or working line dogs. Are they really any more a working dog than Vicky's obedience or agility dogs? I say before you call something silly or try to compare distractions for competitions that you haven't done in either venue--go do it. Regardless of who and what is in the immediate ring, most AKC trials I've gone to are wall to wall people and dogs and noise. Toss in multiple things happening in adjacent rings. I actually like to take my puppies to one before I make the final placements to see how they handle it.

I don't believe Vicky really meant to disparage anyone's definition of working dogs by saying her dogs work. Its sort of an AKC culture thing. To most, things like SAR and LE are a world away and not really within their frame of reference so you have the foo foo only dogs and those that do something [i.e. work]. Its a loose term at best. I don't believe we have a forum rule that says "working" can only be used to mean LE, military and SAR. All else is considered "performance" and a public lashing if you screw up the terms. I'm sure Vicky is proud of her dogs and got caught up defending the implied charge that they are worthless. I believe a while back someone, maybe CM said that this whole work vs. AKC/show thing is a waste of time when we have the bigger AR problem and their quest to end dog ownership/competition, period.

T


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## Chris McDonald

If you mean me, I guess I could be a CM. I don’t think I said that? It reads to well written and I don’t know what it means.


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## Sara Waters

I have a big ANKC trial coming up - there will be 6 rings running side by side, a 1000 runs and I am running 5 dogs in multiple classes as are others. You bet it is chaos. Lot of pressure on me and the dogs and I am hoping my high drive BC behaves himself and doesnt become over excited by the action in the surrounding rings and my more timid dogs dont shut down. 

A days work on sheep on my farm is a doddle for my dogs in comparison LOL, much less stressful. Seriously I think Jennifer is right, we can all learn from the people that are top in their game across all sports and areas of work.


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## Chris McDonald

Can someone or a few of you please post a video of these “high stress” situations? I won’t goof on them I am just interested in what people consider high stress. Its nice to see you refer to them as sports and games.


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## Don Turnipseed

Bottom line, working dogs are ultimately judged by the work they do, not by a point scoring system and a judge or a panel of judges for looking like they can do a job. They actually have to do the job. No matter how many titles many sport dogs, or hunting trial dogs get, it is the job they do that is the final determining factor as to their worth.....in the real world anyway. If a working dog also has titles, that is great, but, having titles in no way makes it a real working dog....just a well trained dog. Big difference. Example, most any of my dogs will hunt, some hunt for themselves, some hunt with me. Hunting for themselves has never made those dogs a working dog no matter how good they were at hunting. Just a bit of reality.


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## Nicole Stark

And the top continues to spin out of control.

Hey Vicki, I have owned a few males but have had mostly female dogs. The reason for that is pretty basic. I like to keep my things nice and don't care so much for having my stuff pissed on.

If gender doesn't matter in the least then you have two things to work with either the pup that catches your fancy from the onset or a specific set of criteria you are looking for that you ultimately expect to be amplified upon maturity.


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## Maren Bell Jones

David Ruby said:


> I am guessing you're joking.


;-)


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## Bob Scott

Chris McDonald said:


> Can someone or a few of you please post a video of these “high stress” situations? I won’t goof on them I am just interested in what people consider high stress. Its nice to see you refer to them as sports and games.


Chris, AKC obedience example
400 - 1000 dogs in one building. A 40' x 40' ring is large one and the rings are back to back and side to side. As many as 8-10 in one building. Your dog may be doing a long down with you out of of the building and in the next ring they could be doing recalls, retrieves, etc. On top of that your dog may be 3-4 feet away at ringside from some ahole little kid with a hot dog or ice cream cone in his hand. Moving through the "crowd" can be a shoulder to shoulder squeeze for the people and nose to nose for the dogs. 
That's not even discussing the number of folks there that want to walk their dogs through this mess with their dog at the end of a 6 ft leash. 
I think going in the AKC OB ring is way more stressful on both dog and handler then any Schutzhund field I've been on. JMHO of course! 
My dog retired from "working" when I left SAR. It's been sport and games since then. 

David R
Many SAR teams do their own certifications. One of the many things I never agreed with.


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## Don Turnipseed

When people look at pups and express an interest in obedience or other venues where there is going to be a lot of distractions and anxiety situations, I point out the very subtle difference in the pups and what makes one more suitable than another. Many of the pups are so close few people would even notice the things I point out to them. As I explain these, seemingly minor differences, to people I also point out that in competion, being what it is today, that very minor differences is the difference between winning and losing.


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## Bob Scott

Don Turnipseed said:


> When people look at pups and express an interest in obedience or other venues where there is going to be a lot of distractions and anxiety situations, I point out the very subtle difference in the pups and what makes one more suitable than another. Many of the pups are so close few people would even notice the things I point out to them. As I explain these, seemingly minor differences, to people I also point out that in competion, being what it is today, that very minor differences is the difference between winning and losing.



Many, probably most AKC OB dogs aren't chosen for obedience. They are mostly house pets with owners that "want to do something with their dog". As with any dog sport there are the select few that actually select the dog for the sport. Many of those not necessarily suitable "house pets" do quite well with proper training. I did quite well with my very first competition "house pet".


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## Don Turnipseed

The strong points I point out belong to the pups that are unshakeable to everything, but you are right Bob, they have to know how to work them. LOL


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## James Downey

Don Turnipseed said:


> When people look at pups and express an interest in obedience or other venues where there is going to be a lot of distractions and anxiety situations, I point out the very subtle difference in the pups and what makes one more suitable than another. Many of the pups are so close few people would even notice the things I point out to them. As I explain these, seemingly minor differences, to people I also point out that in competion, being what it is today, that very minor differences is the difference between winning and losing.


First, I call bullshit. You cannot pick winners at 8 weeks. Second, what you see in a puppy one day, will change in one week. 3rd, you never have competed, So I am not sure have the first clue on what you need. 4th, I doubt you have it all figured out when it comes to pups...Because you assuered us a grown dog had what it took. And that was about as wrong as one could get.

And you show me an unshakedable pup. Now that's a ****ing silly stateme,


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## Sara Waters

Bob Scott said:


> Many, probably most AKC OB dogs aren't chosen for obedience. They are mostly house pets with owners that "want to do something with their dog". As with any dog sport there are the select few that actually select the dog for the sport. Many of those not necessarily suitable "house pets" do quite well with proper training. I did quite well with my very first competition "house pet".


 
ANKC obedience is the only venue offered where I am and there is quite a good number of hardcore very competitive people as there is in agility. They most certainly choose their dogs with their sport in mind. Many as I did start off with the house pet and then if you become more serious about the sport you look more closely at the lines of dogs that you are choosing. You can still stick with a favourite breed, but quite a few change. The serious handlers often import dogs from other states, new zealand and even ireland.

As to stress situations in the trials your example bought back the memory of my first trial with my novice 6 month old dog. In the stays lineup and in the adjacent ring they were throwing the dumbell about 10ft from the line up as well as doing the recall. There was a thud of the dumbell and all the young dogs turned their heads. I could see the body language of the handlers, we were all thinking OMG, OMG OMG my dog is for sure going to chase that dumbell. LOL We endured more dumbells and recalls through the sits and the downs and only one dog broke and we got our first pass. It was nerve wracking LOL, time passed so slowly.


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## rick smith

i'm curious if there is any breeder out there who might consider that a pup who is fairly NON reactive, not trying to constantly beat up all the littermates, and who isn't a drivey little ball of fur might also grow up to be the dog with the highest confidence and most stable nerves of the litter ?
...or are they just duds that should be overlooked or culled ?


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## Sara Waters

rick smith said:


> i'm curious if there is any breeder out there who might consider that a pup who is fairly NON reactive, not trying to constantly beat up all the littermates, and who isn't a drivey little ball of fur might also grow up to be the dog with the highest confidence and most stable nerves of the litter ?
> ...or are they just duds that should be overlooked or culled ?


I have had a couple of dogs who were the last pups left. They turned out fab. One was even a little timid and she grew into a very nice dog, plenty of drive but very non reactive and mellow. With sheepdog pups I look for calmness. Dogs can have plenty of drive and confidence but need to be calm and not race around all the time when working sheep. The over the top pups often get sold to agility homes.


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## Don Turnipseed

rick smith said:


> i'm curious if there is any breeder out there who might consider that a pup who is fairly NON reactive, not trying to constantly beat up all the littermates, and who isn't a drivey little ball of fur might also grow up to be the dog with the highest confidence and most stable nerves of the litter ?
> ...or are they just duds that should be overlooked or culled ?


Rick, they almost always are. I won't keep a a pup that is always trying to be a bad ass, nor one that is highly reactive to games when young. The reactive ones are almost never as solid as the one that is calm and cool in all situations. I am npt looking for one trying to be a bad ass, I am looking for the ones that is. Why? That requires the confidence that I want to see in a dog. In short, if he isn't super confident in his world with other dogs, he isn't going to cut it in mine.


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## Don Turnipseed

James Downey said:


> First, I call bullshit. You cannot pick winners at 8 weeks. Second, what you see in a puppy one day, will change in one week. 3rd, you never have competed, So I am not sure have the first clue on what you need. 4th, I doubt you have it all figured out when it comes to pups...Because you assuered us a grown dog had what it took. And that was about as wrong as one could get.
> 
> And you show me an unshakedable pup. Now that's a ****ing silly stateme,


With your very limited experience James, I am not at all surprised you would call bullshit. You got high powered dogs that you can't control in the house ......according to you. Great training skills. My dogs obviously don't take the bullshit we saw very serious and that was my mistake, not theirs. It is common knowledge that I pick my own dogs at 4 to 5 weeks so picking at 8 weeks is a piece of cake because I can pick the best right off. Now, if you were ever to develope your own line with enough generations so that you actually had an inkling as to what you were looking at, you might realize picking pups isn't that hard. Until then, you know shit about nothing son..... about nothing. It is all guesswork and that is why you can't tell what you got. You got to be able to produce consistent dogs before you can look at em and see what is there. Blow smoke at someone that only knows as much as you do.


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## Kadi Thingvall

rick smith said:


> i'm curious if there is any breeder out there who might consider that a pup who is fairly NON reactive, not trying to constantly beat up all the littermates, and who isn't a drivey little ball of fur might also grow up to be the dog with the highest confidence and most stable nerves of the litter ?


That pup may easily grow up to have the best nerves and confidence in the litter. The question would be will it have the drive to do the job it was selected for. All the confidence and stability in the world doesn't do you any good if the dog doesn't have the drive to get the job done, whatever that job is.

No drive = really nice pet for someone.

That said, some dogs do mature into their drives later, I've seen it happen on a number of occasions, the dog who looks like a dud at 6, 8, 10 months has all sorts of drive at 10, 12, 14 months. But then you have to find an owner that wants to wait that long to see if it's going to happen or not, and risk wasting all that time if it doesn't.


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## rick smith

i think people get too concerned with "drive", and they are usually malinois types 

drive is great, and i think i know what they all are, at least on paper, so please no more defs 
but confidence and stable nerves will get a good dog thru their job WHATEVER it is, as long as they enjoy what they are doing, and lo drive should never be passed off as a criteria for passing it off as "pet quality"

quick example :
there is NO handler on our navy base that does NOT agree that a certain K9 is far and away the BEST ... in both patrol work and detection
- the dog rarely barks...it acts like a family pet...it never bounces off the walls in the van when all the other K9's are 
- but nobody wants to take hits from it or fight with it, and it WILL fight  
- if an mwd could be called a confident man eater, this would fit that def...even the other handlers consider it "lo drive" but no one disputes it is VERY effective in its job and very controllable off lead...many sport types here would probably call it a slug 
- ok, so i haven't seen that many working dogs but this one is the best i've ever seen
....ten years old and still going strong....i'm gonna try and adopt him if he retires over here, and he'll make a great pet 

i hope other LE K9 handlers have gotten a chance to see a dog like this...they are a pleasure to work with and probably a great partner on the street 

of course if Lou is reading this, he might say i just can't see that "drive" when when the dog is working  ....probably true


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## Don Turnipseed

Kadi is right in part. Much of what is seen as a pup will change drastically in the course of the first year to two years. Ovger the years, I have learned that what you see in the solid, most confident pupols is that they weather the environment most easily, so, what you see at 4 to 8 weeks, is much more likely to to be what you see as an adult. It takes very little to shake a less confident dog forever. This is why the "stress" word has come to have so much meaning. 

Kadi also mentioned different needs and I agree with that. Personally, I don't care if a dog goes apeshit over a rag at all. Tells me nothing about the job they will eventually be doing. On the other hand, for sport work, I can see the benefit if the dog shows real animation and excitement for the game because it is about how the dog looks.


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## Joby Becker

Don Turnipseed said:


> Kadi also mentioned different needs and I agree with that. Personally, I don't care if a dog goes apeshit over a rag at all. Tells me nothing about the job they will eventually be doing. On the other hand, for sport work, I can see the benefit if the dog shows real animation and excitement for the game because it is about how the dog looks.


I think there is more to sport work than just how the dog looks Don, and I think that testing pups for sport (or LE or MWD) for that matter, trying to see what type of "drives" they have, goes far beyond what the dog is gonna "look like" in the work. 

they like to see drive, because most of the training that will be done, will be done while the dog is in drive. Behaviors are taught with rewards, that makes learning and performance much faster, and more reliable..

That and the fact that *no one* uses live prey, to test for 'prey drive' that trains sport, protection, police, or military dogs. They test for it in regards to how it will be used in training. rug to tug, tug to sleeve, sleeve to suit, or some combination of that.


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## Don Turnipseed

Call it what you will Joby. It is evident in today in the "attentaive heel". People want the dog to look animated. The actual bitework is on how the dog "looks" doing a simulated senario.....which the dog has been run through countless times so he sees it as a "game" and knows he won't get hurt. It truly is on how he looks to the judges. Take a real civil patrol dog. No judges, just the handler deciding if he got the job done satisfactorily. If the dog passes muster, you really think the handler gives a rip what kind of bite the dog uses or whether the dog dosy doed up to the guy before submitting the bad guy? Judges judge how things look according to rules. Show is that way, bitework is that way, tracking competion is that way. I am not knocking bitework, I am knocking the perception many have that fantasize it is more real than anything else. It is something people get satisfaction and training experience out of , but that doesn't make all the dogs true working dogs....just makes em "look" like what people want to see.


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## David Ruby

Don Turnipseed said:


> Bottom line, working dogs are ultimately judged by the work they do, not by a point scoring system and a judge or a panel of judges for looking like they can do a job. They actually have to do the job. [snip] Just a bit of reality.


Sure. How does somebody not involved with the dog know how the dog can do its job? That is where 3rd party tests become important, no? You have an impartial judge (or whatever) making sure the dog actually does what you are saying it can do. It is easy to be biased toward something you are working hard to breed/build/develop/etc.



Don Turnipseed said:


> My dogs obviously don't take the bullshit we saw very serious and that was my mistake, not theirs.


Don, are you saying that your dogs acted the way they did because they saw it as "bullshit" and just did not take it seriously? I am not trying to start flames, but call it like it is. They ran for the hills. That looked like the opposite of not taking it seriously. It looked like them avoiding the conflict. If you are saying they ran because they did not see it as real, then F that. I'd take a sport dog that bit on command over that, or that at least stayed there until we made sure the guy doing the "bullshit" was not going to suddenly try to mug me or something.

I am not bashing you or your dogs. I _AM_ saying that in the case you shared with us an unbiased 3rd party, it proved pretty illuminating and I came away with a much different conclusion than yours that the dogs just did not take things seriously enough. Sorry, but that seems like bull to me.



Don Turnipseed said:


> Kadi also mentioned different needs and I agree with that. Personally, I don't care if a dog goes apeshit over a rag at all. Tells me nothing about the job they will eventually be doing. On the other hand, for sport work, I can see the benefit if the dog shows real animation and excitement for the game because it is about how the dog looks.


It is not all about animation or excitement. Try working a dog with limited drive and you can see why that might be useful. And some of these high-drive Malinois function just fine as house dogs, so I do not buy that argument that high-drive equals can't-be-controlled, although there is probably a continuum of sorts. So while it might not matter if the dog can go nuts for a rag per se, it is a tool to tell you what the dog is like and how it might help in training. There are other factors breeders/trainers/etc. can use to determine if the dog is right for them a/o the job at hand. They just tell you what traits the dogs have that might be used in their intended jobs. Personally, I would just use my intended & trusted reputable breeders with experience around whatever dogs/lines/pairings to look at that stuff and help me evaluate those traits and how based on their experience would help determine the suitability of the dog for whatever I was getting it for. If it is a reliable breeder, I tend to trust the person who has bred the dog, knows the lines, and spent every day since birth with the dog to know more about it than I'll ever be able to see in the couple of hours I spend with them (if that, you might buy sight-unseen).

Really, if we're trying to tie this back to the OP, I think it's a matter of preference with gender (I like girls overall), or the individual dog, combined with suitability for whatever she's going to do with it (work, pet, OB, confirmation, etc.).

-Cheers


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## Kadi Thingvall

rick smith said:


> i think people get too concerned with "drive", and they are usually malinois types


I don't know anyone who is interested in a working dog who doesn't want the dog to have the drive needed to get the job done, regardless of the breed.



> drive is great, and i think i know what they all are, at least on paper, so please no more defs
> but confidence and stable nerves will get a good dog thru their job WHATEVER it is, as long as they enjoy what they are doing, and lo drive should never be passed off as a criteria for passing it off as "pet quality"


If they enjoy what they are doing, then they have the drive to do it. If they don't have enough drive to finish the job, ie they start out strong but peter out in 5 minutes, then all the confidence and stable nerves in the world aren't going to get them to finish that job, and yes, they are a pet because they lack drive. A really nice pet though.

There are levels of drive. A) Not enough to get the job done B) enough to get the job done C) excess drive that isn't neccessary to get the job done but some people like to have.

Doesn't matter how solid the dog is, if it's in category A stable nerves and confidence aren't going to move it up to category B. I've seen people try, and fail, because they liked the dog's character so much they hoped they could find that little switch somewhere that would increase the drive, just enough. However a dog in category B in terms of drive levels may still not be able to get the job done because while it doesn't lack drive, it does lack stability/confidence. 



> - the dog rarely barks...it acts like a family pet...it never bounces off the walls in the van when all the other K9's are
> - but nobody wants to take hits from it or fight with it, and it WILL fight
> - if an mwd could be called a confident man eater, this would fit that def...even the other handlers consider it "lo drive" but no one disputes it is VERY effective in its job and very controllable off lead...many sport types here would probably call it a slug
> - ok, so i haven't seen that many working dogs but this one is the best i've ever seen
> ....ten years old and still going strong....i'm gonna try and adopt him if he retires over here, and he'll make a great pet


I think you are confusing drive in the work with behavior around the house, vehicle, etc. I know many dogs, of multiple breeds, who have the drive to work when it's time to work, but when aren't working settle easily. Actually out at training some of the dogs that were stupidest in their vehicles were some of the dogs that showed lower levels of drive when they were working, and some of the highest drive dogs in the work would be sound asleep if you walked past their vehicle.

I've posted videos of my dog Mac on here before, mainly because he's the poster child for stupid behavior when he's working, constantly barking and acting like an idiot, leaking drive all over the place. But when he's not working he's chilling in the vehicle, either just watching the world go by or taking a nap. At home he's a lump LOL 90% of my dogs are like that, although not as stupid when working, they don't "leak" drive as badly as he does, partly a different foundation. But they are calm in the vehicle, and well behaved at home. Only 1 dog is an idiot in the vehicle, she will bark and carry on. But she's still good at home, just chilling in the house, half the time I won't even see her for hours on end, she's sleeping on the dog bed in the master bath, or in another room chewing on a toy.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I've posted videos of my dog Mac on here before, mainly because he's the poster child for stupid behavior when he's working, constantly barking and acting like an idiot, leaking drive all over the place. But when he's not working he's chilling in the vehicle, either just watching the world go by or taking a nap. At home he's a lump LOL 90% of my dogs are like that, although not as stupid when working, they don't "leak" drive as badly as he does, partly a different foundation. But they are calm in the vehicle, and well behaved at home.


I've noticed similar traits in his son and to a lesser extent, his great granddaughter. "Aux pied" apparently to him means bark RIGHT IN MY FACE as he's jumping for the flip finish and if he didn't get it just right, then bark some more at me, as if it's my fault he didn't land right and is not getting rewarded. :roll: :lol: But at home, he's pretty chill. So's the pup, who is sleeping at my feet.


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## James Downey

Don Turnipseed said:


> With your very limited experience James, I am not at all surprised you would call bullshit. You got high powered dogs that you can't control in the house ......according to you. Great training skills. My dogs obviously don't take the bullshit we saw very serious and that was my mistake, not theirs. It is common knowledge that I pick my own dogs at 4 to 5 weeks so picking at 8 weeks is a piece of cake because I can pick the best right off. Now, if you were ever to develope your own line with enough generations so that you actually had an inkling as to what you were looking at, you might realize picking pups isn't that hard. Until then, you know shit about nothing son..... about nothing. It is all guesswork and that is why you can't tell what you got. You got to be able to produce consistent dogs before you can look at em and see what is there. Blow smoke at someone that only knows as much as you do.


Don, You should sell those puppy picking services. The number one concern I get from working dog folks on pups is: "how do I know if the puppy will work" Well, I tell ya, You give the seed 5 minutes, and he'll do some nostradamus shizznit and pick the pup of your dreams....that's how. For a fee....how much do you think people would pay for that...I am guessing like 500.00 a pop. 

Not sure about how you come to can't control the dogs in house thing....that is unless you equate control to imitating the behavior of a rug. Mals got some energy...but I assure you uncles jessie, I gots them rattlers rangled. 

You calm down thier old timer. You can talk big...but I assure anyone who has ever worked a dog sees the Bullshit. The piles and piles of Bullshit. My limited experience could smell the anal glands from here when that dog ran for the hills...


But you keep on, keep on. Because theres a sucker born every minute. I have been around the block a time or two myself thier gramps.....and actually off my property, and in town and shit..


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## Don Turnipseed

Your on to something here Kadi, my lowest drive dogs were the ones that liked mto chase balls and play games the most. The serious ones never got off on things like that. Stromng dogs like the challenge, just like people.


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## vicki dickey

I have been busy painting a sign for a kennel here known for their retrievers and field work and lost track of this post. I am a dog/cat/animal artist by commission but accept only a few a year besides working and making time everyday to train my dogs too. 
Someone wrote that I was probably proud of my dogs and their accomplishments in AKC and I am proud of my dogs and what they have achieved at AKC trials. My dogs and I put a lot of time and effort in preparing for a trial. My dogs also go to work with me and are well behaved and make me proud there as well. I did not mean to imply my dogs were working dogs -I was just trying to defend what I thought was my right to post on the Working Dog forum. My dogs might not be working dogs but let me tell you I sure work getting them where they are in obedience, rally and agility.
I realized from a lot of the comments to my post that this forum might not be the place for me and my obedience/agility dogs. I apologise to any and all I offended by posting here. I have learned a lot here and want to thank all of you for the great advice I have gotten over the last year. I took your advice to heart and used it with both of my boys and they have approved so much in the ring. I have written and asked my account in Working Dog Forum be closed. I will find another forum geared to obedience training and showing. It has been informative and fun and it was nice to "meet" other dog lovers. Thank you and the best to you all.


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## Peter Cavallaro

Mods take note, I personally had nothing to do with this.


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## Chris McDonald

Screw them all Vicki. I wanted to bust your balls for some of the stuff you said on here but you seemed too nice. Although I don’t believe the AKC did well by dogs I think SCH and the other sports has done every bit as much harm. ..... _remainder deleted _


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## Gena Ratcliff

And another one leaves to spread the goodwill offered on WDF by the bully boys with god complexes.

Perhaps a warning on the home page is in order:

"If your dog doesn't bite sh*t, don't post anywhere except obedience and agility. You will be verbally assaulted if you dare pose a question elsewhere."


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## Peter Cavallaro

oi, who u callin bully boys with god complexes?? folks have different ways of expressing themselves - anyone breakin any forum rules apart from you calling names??? should we all speak, think and act a certain way and all have the same opinion???


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## Chris McDonald

Ah, actually if you go back and look this was girl on girl.

Even our girl Mod did some kicking:-D 
Originally Posted by *vicki dickey* http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f8/puppy-male-female-why-23616/index6.html#post332302
_Well Maggie since it was such a simple question why couldnt it be answered simply?_

Because you're asking it in the wrong place.

You've received some really detailed and meticulous responses. It's surprising that your answer is "I think we should agree to disagree. I consider my dogs who happen to have conformation titles and obedience titles (Show dogs are they) as much a working dog as a dog that hunts, a dog that herds or a dog that is used in police work."
_
"I personally don't care if people want to do obedience or show their dog or whatever. At least they are doing something with their dog. Just don't try to pass that off as a "working" dog or think that they are "bettering the breed" just by virtue of showing it in conformation and then breeding it, especially if it's currently an actual working breed. "_
_
"*Any breeder who takes showline dogs and puts a few rally, obedience, or agility titles on their dog does not make it a "working dog." I applaud them for doing so instead of just breeding cause they are perceived as pretty, but it does not make them a working dog. *... If you want a showline dog, ask the showline people, i.e.-not the WORKING Dog Forum."_
_
"I put 5 championships in the show ring on four different terrier breeds. If they couldn't do what they were bred to do I NEVER considered them working dogs. *That includes one of those terriers that was nationally ranked in AKC OB. That was a show dog that had some nice OB titles PERIOD!* .... Another terrier I had was one of the best working dogs I ever owned. He was also specialty winning, group placing terrier. He had a best colored dog in a "working terrier" breed show judged by terrier men from GB. He had to have a certified working title witnessed by a working terrier judge in order to qualify for those show classes. ... He was also a National Specialty winning dog in the AKC breed ring. That was the very least of his accomplishments as far as I was concerned and had nothing to do with him being a "working" terrier. ... Those that believe a CH in the breed ring qualifies as a working title probably should be on a show forum."_

IMO, how to choose a S/L puppy is really not a topic for a working dog board.

You can see that by the replies, surely? 

All JMO!




Then there is my favorite my game is harder than your game line so I am better than you…:roll: your dog has to steep over balls psssst ha 

I do PSA obedience where you and your dog have to step over balls, tugs, sleeves, past decoys, ignore gunfire and so on. Obedience in an AKC ring where the biggest distraction is the other dog doing the sit nearby is not the same.


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## Peter Cavallaro

Maren, Maggie, other gals.....etc, you all seriously needs to step back and take a long hard look at yourselves and the impact yr hateful words can have on someone just trying to learn.

Vicki i'm there for ya girl.


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## Chris McDonald

And that’s coming from an obnoxious Australian, And he forgot that peace love and happiness hypocrite Susan. Good job guys. Can someone kick me off of here please. I just want to get locked out. So I don’t log on when I read her and Marens vomit.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Vomit sure describes someone who in nearly 3000 posts has never added anything remotely useful, relevant, or helpful to this forum. Bye bye, little troll...


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## Chris McDonald

What are you talking about you got 5000?


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## Joby Becker

i THINK I can say that there are actually showline dogs that DO WORK, some in the same capacity as whatever most working dogs are doing.

I am not one to say a show dog is a working dog at all though..

I think there are also what I would might call a working dog, competing at shows, or other akc events.

I really have changed my opinion on the whole thing.

If I am thinking or talking about dogs that have show, or working lines..that is how I refer to them..

I also do not consider sports, agiltiy, OB...etc...etc....as actual "work"

I have to agree somewhat with Chris and Don (begrudgingly of course) on what constitutes a "working dog".

I view this forum more of a collection of people that own, "working bred" or "working line" dogs, with a moderate percentage of those dogs being actual "working dogs" interspersed...

I am here on this board, but I dont really consider my dog a working dog persay.. I dont tell people that the dog is a working dog, it is NOT a PP dog (although it really is, just not in pure function). I tell them it is from working lines...

I see the real split as show vs. working in aspects of breeding...you either breed for working traits or you dont.. working traits being the true "working" function of the dog..

I view a GSD, MAL, DS as an actual working dog, if it is doing PSD, real PP, functional herding or guard work.

I think that dogs can be from working lines, and that people can breed working quality dogs, from real working lines, without actually doing what I consider functional work.

I also apply this to hunting dogs...if they are not really hunting on a regular basis, they are not really "working dogs", but dogs capable of work, from working lines...

I liken it to the guys that bred fighting dogs, many of the breeders did not fight a dog...they just placed dogs with guys that did fight, and studied the results...and bred off those results. I bought a lot of dogs from fighting lines, and never intentionally fought any dogs, so they were not fighting dogs...but they were dogs from fighting lines...I also have bought dogs from "working lines", that never did actual work...they were not working dogs, but dogs from working lines...

I have had a few PP dogs from fighting and "working" lines that did bite people for real...i called them PP dogs, and internally thought of them as working dogs..

bottom line is you look at the function of the breed you are focusing on..and try to breed dogs that can do that function...

the biggest problem is there are way too many dogs to have them all be "true" working dogs...the demand is not there..I just hope that if one gets a "working" bred dog, that it can perform one of the "real life" working functions for that breed...otherwise, the breeder is not doing their job right...


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## Peter Cavallaro

Joby Becker;332740
[B said:


> I liken it to the guys that bred fighting dogs, many of the breeders did not fight a dog...they just placed dogs with guys that did fight, and studied the results...and bred off those results.[/B]* I bought a lot of dogs from fighting lines, and never intentionally fought any dogs*, so they were not fighting dogs...but they were dogs from fighting lines...


Joby, Joby, Joby......thats makes you a bigger prick than the guys that actually do it...sheesh, no man love for you anymore, increasing demand by providing financial support to the most gutless turds to draw breath. 

yr morals are in yr well stretched sphincter bro.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Interesting you bring up PPDs. So is a PPD that never has a live bite in its life more of a working dog than someone who gets their dog to the very top level of a highly competitive working sport? Or is being a deterrent enough? :-k By that argument, I suppose one could get a German shepherd or Rottweiler from a shelter or Craigslist "for protection" (but really just as a deterrent with no formal training) and call that more of a working dog. I think the lines can be pretty heavily blurred. That being said, I could make up something that says my dog that does dock diving is going back to some ancestral roots of hunting waterfowl or water rescue going after the bumper into the water and then retrieving it. Nothing wrong with doing any performance sport like that because it does test the athletic ability of the dog and I love dock diving, but it's still a performance sport.


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## Joby Becker

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Joby, Joby, Joby......thats makes you a bigger prick than the guys that actually do it...sheesh, no man love for you anymore, increasing demand by providing financial support to the most gutless turds to draw breath.
> 
> yr morals are in yr well stretched sphincter bro.


I bought dogs from fighting lines that also were bred for manwork..from foreign countries...

what do I care if some guy in rural Spain used his dogs to take down cattle, and/or fought them.

I bought them for manwork, which was an additional function, as they were also used as guard dogs...which some excelled at...

there is a small percentage of fighting type dogs that can be used to fight people in lieu of animals...and that is still a traditional function of the breeds I was into...


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## Don Turnipseed

Joby, the fact is, the world has changed. Most people don't have access or the means to actually work a dog in real work today. Much like breeding, people are regulkated into only having two dogs in most places. If they are lucky, they can have a few more. Can't do much breeding that way. Times have change to where people see sport, show, agility as work. It isn't likely to change. People do what they can, but, it is a misconception today that most venues constitutes a working dog. Working means the dog works, not the owner working to train, show etc.....the dog is supposed to do the work. People just got it backwards today. :wink:


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## Peter Cavallaro

logic of the arms dealer, response to joby not above post.


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## Don Turnipseed

Chris McDonald said:


> Ah, actually if you go back and look this was girl on girl.
> 
> Even our girl Mod did some kicking:-D
> Originally Posted by *vicki dickey* http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f8/puppy-male-female-why-23616/index6.html#post332302
> _Well Maggie since it was such a simple question why couldnt it be answered simply?_
> 
> Because you're asking it in the wrong place.
> 
> You've received some really detailed and meticulous responses. It's surprising that your answer is "I think we should agree to disagree. I consider my dogs who happen to have conformation titles and obedience titles (Show dogs are they) as much a working dog as a dog that hunts, a dog that herds or a dog that is used in police work."
> _
> "I personally don't care if people want to do obedience or show their dog or whatever. At least they are doing something with their dog. Just don't try to pass that off as a "working" dog or think that they are "bettering the breed" just by virtue of showing it in conformation and then breeding it, especially if it's currently an actual working breed. "_
> _
> "*Any breeder who takes showline dogs and puts a few rally, obedience, or agility titles on their dog does not make it a "working dog." I applaud them for doing so instead of just breeding cause they are perceived as pretty, but it does not make them a working dog. *... If you want a showline dog, ask the showline people, i.e.-not the WORKING Dog Forum."_
> _
> "I put 5 championships in the show ring on four different terrier breeds. If they couldn't do what they were bred to do I NEVER considered them working dogs. *That includes one of those terriers that was nationally ranked in AKC OB. That was a show dog that had some nice OB titles PERIOD!* .... Another terrier I had was one of the best working dogs I ever owned. He was also specialty winning, group placing terrier. He had a best colored dog in a "working terrier" breed show judged by terrier men from GB. He had to have a certified working title witnessed by a working terrier judge in order to qualify for those show classes. ... He was also a National Specialty winning dog in the AKC breed ring. That was the very least of his accomplishments as far as I was concerned and had nothing to do with him being a "working" terrier. ... Those that believe a CH in the breed ring qualifies as a working title probably should be on a show forum."_
> 
> IMO, how to choose a S/L puppy is really not a topic for a working dog board.
> 
> You can see that by the replies, surely?
> 
> All JMO!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then there is my favorite my game is harder than your game line so I am better than you…:roll: your dog has to steep over balls psssst ha
> 
> I do PSA obedience where you and your dog have to step over balls, tugs, sleeves, past decoys, ignore gunfire and so on. Obedience in an AKC ring where the biggest distraction is the other dog doing the sit nearby is not the same.


I agree Chris.


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## Don Turnipseed

I think working a dog in bitework really has value. Go back to David Ruby's post. It has done wonders for David! Not one apology for being new to bitework and possibly not knowing what he is talking about etc, etc. He has come a long way. I would say he has just about completed his initiation and is ready to be titled. :wink:


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## Joby Becker

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Interesting you bring up PPDs. So is a PPD that never has a live bite in its life more of a working dog than someone who gets their dog to the very top level of a highly competitive working sport? Or is being a deterrent enough? :-k By that argument, I suppose one could get a German shepherd or Rottweiler from a shelter or Craigslist "for protection" (but really just as a deterrent with no formal training) and call that more of a working dog. I think the lines can be pretty heavily blurred. That being said, I could make up something that says my dog that does dock diving is going back to some ancestral roots of hunting waterfowl or water rescue going after the bumper into the water and then retrieving it. Nothing wrong with doing any performance sport like that because it does test the athletic ability of the dog and I love dock diving, but it's still a performance sport.



I get what you are saying..and I agree...

it is about the function the dog is being used as..your dock diving dog...and my dog are from working lines, but in my mind are not really working dogs..

i cant say if PP dogs that never do anything are really working dogs...I can say I have had dogs that have been trained in that function and have performed in that function...

if we test them for the original functions, and make breeding decisions based on those functions, and produce puppies that for the most part can perform those functions, then they are working line dogs in my mind, but not actual working dogs...

if you were to breed mals, based on dock diving performance I would not call them working dogs...

that is why I dont call my dog a "working dog" she is not used as a PPD, she is a pet, that I train for various tasks, but do not rely on her for PP, she is bred from lines that do functional tasks, but she does not do them herself. If I did use her for PP and she did perform then I might call her a PPD/ working dog...but that is not the current function of her currently..

currently she is a well bred working line dog that is very capable of PP, or sport work, genetically, and a dog that has been tested in various ways, and has proven to be proficient...but not a dog that I would call a working dog.

this is just my personal views...in regards to what Chris said..

performance dog...sure..
working line dog...sure...
performance bred dog...sure...

working dog...NO!


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## Maren Bell Jones

Joby Becker said:


> if you were to breed mals, based on dock diving performance I would not call them working dogs...


Correct, I would call them performance dogs, not working or working sport dogs. Same if people breed a dog based on their performance in agility or obedience or whatever else. 

I said earlier that because I can use my dog to help herd my chickens where they need to be. They will be both meat and egg birds as I will likely sell some eggs since we don't go through many as a way to help pay for feed costs. So by that criteria, he'd be more of a working dog than if we ever made it to PSA 3 (which is extremely unlikely, but anyways). Since my husband has to work in St. Louis two hours away during the week, I have considered adding a little more PPD exercises for my dog, though not sure if that would make him a working dog either if he never bites. He alerts just fine to anyone who comes to the door, so he's already performing the deterrent aspect, which we know is about 90%+ of self defense. He actually got me out of a tough spot a couple weeks ago without actually biting anyone (just alerting) in a potentially dangerous situation. We just have not done any home invasion scenarios or anything like that though. Either way, it doesn't really matter. He's a versatile dog that does a lot of things pretty well, so good for my purposes, glorified pet or not.


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## Joby Becker

Don Turnipseed said:


> Joby, the fact is, the world has changed. Most people don't have access or the means to actually work a dog in real work today. Much like breeding, people are regulkated into only having two dogs in most places. If they are lucky, they can have a few more. Can't do much breeding that way. Times have change to where people see sport, show, agility as work. It isn't likely to change. People do what they can, but, it is a misconception today that most venues constitutes a working dog. Working means the dog works, not the owner working to train, show etc.....the dog is supposed to do the work. People just got it backwards today. :wink:


The difference to me is this..

You can still evaluate and test dogs and breed for the real "working" functions...and produce them if you breed right, from working lines, even if you do not own the actual "working dogs" while they are performing the "work"...

kinda like if you dont hunt with your dogs much as a function, but can still produce good hunting dogs, based on results based breeding..

Maren,,,

this is just how I see internally..

I think one can breed good working dogs, without owning working dogs..but by owning working line dogs, that produce good working dogs, if that makes sense..

If I sell a pup that becomes a PSD, he is a working dog, and my bitch that produced him, produces working dogs, but she is not a working dog in my mind, just a good dog from working lines...

I dont view her as PP dog, because I am not using her as a functional PP dog in MY mindset..if she takes out an intruder, I might say she makes a good PP dog, if used that way..even though her function is not a PP dog, but more of a pet that I like to train to her potential..

it all about function to me in reality..

I have bred plenty of "working quality" dogs...from what I consider "working lines"..but not a whole lot of real "working dogs"...

the important part for me, was to breed a dog that can perform the working function, if that was what was desired by the owner, even though they may not use it as a working dog, or ever use it as one...that to me is staying true to the breed heritage..

since the dogs far outnumber the need for true working dogs..

not sure if that makes any sense or not..


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## Joby Becker

T..

lets say I buy a GSD from you..

I dont do any sport work with it...but do a herding test or two, play around with training..get some basic herding titles...

I also do some OB and compete at some OB trials..and title the dog...


Is that a working dog? or a dog that may have been bred from working lines, if you in fact bred working lines...that producing working dogs..


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## Nicole Stark

vicki dickey said:


> I have written and asked my account in Working Dog Forum be closed. I will find another forum geared to obedience training and showing. It has been informative and fun and it was nice to "meet" other dog lovers. Thank you and the best to you all.


That's a bit unfortunate to read Vicki. You should reconsider that decision. I joined this forum 18 months before I got a dog that could do any of the stuff many of the members here do with their dogs. Back then, I read everything I could that interested me, made a few friends, and sat back and waited for a pup. 

It's been a year since I got that pup and the forum has changed a lot since the day I joined. Many of the more accomplished members who used to post regularly seem to have moved on to other things. Could be that the level of conversations had just didn't hold their interest anymore. From my perspective, I could see how that would be the case.

I'd really rather it if I could find a way to become a more productive member of this forum and by that I don't mean just being good and non-confrontational. Neither I am all that good at anyway. If you like the forum stick around and enjoy it. Frankly, I appreciate the passion that surfaces here from time to time. Sometimes that comes out in ways that others find disagreeable, but nonetheless I enjoy it.

BTW the rest of you should stop beating a dead horse. I think we all get the point.


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## Bob Scott

Sarah said
"There was a thud of the dumbell"


I've had AKC judges refuse to let me use a Schutzhund dumbell. One commented "The noise of it landing may startle a dog in the next ring". ](*,)](*,)
It's in the rules that they can make that choice so I borrowed someones cute little plastic one and did fine with it.


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## Sara Waters

Well I am confused. This is a working dog forum, which is why I joined it but whose dogs actually work in the true sense of the word as we are debating?. From what I have read many of the dogs on this site with some exceptions are sport performance dogs from working lines.

People possibly got their panties in a twist because Vickis dogs are from show lines.

Years ago I had a cattle dog once from early show lines ( closer to the original working lines) and she was the best darn protection dog I ever had and she wasnt trained in protection. I did a lot of travelling on my own back then and I always felt a level of security with her riding shotgun. Was she working?

My dogs are working line sheep dogs and work my sheep for me. However I always get a sense of working regardless of whether I am heading out to muster sheep and put them through the yards, or heading out for a spot of agility training. Sure the sheep bit is what they have the instincts for which dont need to be trained, just controlled and what I need them for, but the level of partnership and enjoyment required in agility feels much the same. Regardless I have a lot to learn from far better trainers than me in both areas LOL. I dont see the obedience and agility trainers as inferior, far from it, some of them are extremely skilled and I bet would excel in anything to do with dogs and indeed some do in customs etc.


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## Sara Waters

Bob Scott said:


> Sarah said
> "There was a thud of the dumbell"
> 
> 
> I've had AKC judges refuse to let me use a Schutzhund dumbell. One commented "The noise of it landing may startle a dog in the next ring". ](*,)](*,)
> It's in the rules that they can make that choice so I borrowed someones cute little plastic one and did fine with it.


Your AKC sounds different from us. I use wooden dumbells and the big wooden dumbells used by the big dogs thud and our judges response is that it is an obedience competition, get over it, dogs should be trained to handle distractions.


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## Maren Bell Jones

My issue was because she was asking for guidance on how to select a dog for her sports, but she says she doesn't want to select working line Aussies. So why is someone asking about obedience and agility dogs from show lines on a working dog forum? It's like saying "I want a Belgian draft horse to show in driving" on a forum for hunter jumpers or dressage or barrel racing. I don't want her to leave as there are other folks that add a whole lot less to the forum than Vickey, I just was trying to say she'd be best served in that context on other forums. If she doesn't come back, I hope she finds her answers elsewhere.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Joby Becker said:


> T..
> 
> lets say I buy a GSD from you..
> 
> I dont do any sport work with it...but do a herding test or two, play around with training..get some basic herding titles...
> 
> I also do some OB and compete at some OB trials..and title the dog...
> 
> 
> Is that a working dog? or a dog that may have been bred from working lines, if you in fact bred working lines...that producing working dogs..


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## Bob Scott

Sara Waters said:


> Your AKC sounds different from us. I use wooden dumbells and the big wooden dumbells used by the big dogs thud and our judges response is that it is an obedience competition, get over it, dogs should be trained to handle distractions.



I agree 100% with that but the judge still has the right to make that choice and if he/she gets a few complaints that's all it takes. Things like that can happen a lot when you show up with a schutzhund dog. They don't like our heeling, our single commands and most especially when we beat them for first place. :twisted: 
I've had some of those "top competitors" come up to me after my ring time and tell me why I shouldn't have gotten the score I did. Often times, after they have ran to the judges, we wouldn't score as high the next day. Games are played in anything you do! ;-)
Yes, many are serious competitors but the big majority are there for fun and nothing else.


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## Nicole Stark

Sara Waters said:


> People possibly got their panties in a twist because Vickis dogs are from show lines...
> 
> ...I dont see the obedience and agility trainers as inferior, far from it, some of them are extremely skilled and I bet would excel in anything to do with dogs and indeed some do in customs etc.


Maybe the others did just that, but that's not how I saw the progression of things go. What was objected to was the comparison she made to the other types of dogs she described to those she owned and worked with.

Good training is good training, regardless of what is being taught. I'm interested in every aspect of the "art" because many of the techniques and approaches have the ability to cross over to one another rather nicely. I suppose, if there's only one take away in this entire discussion your sentiment above is what drew many of us here to begin with. I think, maybe a number of people have forgotten that and when those who are serious about training and/or the work they do with their dogs are out making good use of their time we've got people like myself mucking about killing time on the forum. It's really no wonder the more serious, educational edge of this forum has been lost.


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## Joby Becker

Sara Waters said:


> Well I am confused. This is a working dog forum, which is why I joined it but whose dogs actually work in the true sense of the word as we are debating?. From what I have read many of the dogs on this site with some exceptions are sport performance dogs from working lines.
> 
> People possibly got their panties in a twist because Vickis dogs are from show lines.
> 
> Years ago I had a cattle dog once from early show lines ( closer to the original working lines) and she was the best darn protection dog I ever had and she wasnt trained in protection. I did a lot of travelling on my own back then and I always felt a level of security with her riding shotgun. Was she working?
> 
> My dogs are working line sheep dogs and work my sheep for me. However I always get a sense of working regardless of whether I am heading out to muster sheep and put them through the yards, or heading out for a spot of agility training. Sure the sheep bit is what they have the instincts for which dont need to be trained, just controlled and what I need them for, but the level of partnership and enjoyment required in agility feels much the same. Regardless I have a lot to learn from far better trainers than me in both areas LOL. I dont see the obedience and agility trainers as inferior, far from it, some of them are extremely skilled and I bet would excel in anything to do with dogs and indeed some do in customs etc.


it is a fluid description. just sharing my opinion..not saying it is the end all be all...

I have also owned a dog from show lines that I would call a working dog..well sort of...a Rottie from 1/2 showlines...that actually was a good PP dog, trained and being employed as a PP dog by me religiously, and did bite.

the point is this...this is a working dog board..regardless of what I might classify as a true working dog, almost everyone here is talking about working bred, performance lines of dogs...not showline dogs...

in regards to working dogs...(as a breed group, dogs that are bred to perform working tasks, real working dogs, and dogs bred for the purpose of producing those dogs) breeding for show, or breeding for no reason other than the dog looks good, or is a nice pet, is what does the most damage to those working breeds...the working qualities need to be focused on when breeding, even if you are not gonna use the dog for that function, if you are staying true to the breed...if that is not done, the working traits are diminished or all but lost...

point is this...show breeders claim to adhere to the standard, but most give very little consideration to the temperament aspect of the standard, and very few actually test or train their dogs for the original working functions. they just rely on history of the breed as a whole, and not their breeding stock...and that really pisses off people that own and train working line dogs, or breed dogs to work.

I can say that if she does OB with her showline dog, it is just as much as a "working" dog as mine, maybe even more...but it is not really comparable, if the dog cannot be trained to perform the breed's real working function, like mine can...

I have a performance bred, working line dog, that is not a working dog in my mind...if that makes sense..her parents have produced a good percentage of real working dogs, and were capable of becoming real working dogs themselves...and she is 100% genetically capable of performing the tasks that she was bred for, in regards to the working function of her breed...

a dog breed for show, or for OB is not a working bred dog...to me..


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Joby Becker said:


> T..
> 
> lets say I buy a GSD from you..
> 
> I dont do any sport work with it...but do a herding test or two, play around with training..get some basic herding titles...
> 
> I also do some OB and compete at some OB trials..and title the dog...
> 
> 
> Is that a working dog? or a dog that may have been bred from working lines, if you in fact bred working lines...that producing working dogs..


You're all caught up in what someone calls a dog? If you bought a dog from me and gave it a good home for the length of its life, I don't give a damn what you call it. How many working line pedigrees are there out there that have nothing but sport titles. Now, for the record, I have bred AKC Pembroke Welsh Corgis and a GSD litter or two in the last 30 years. If you have a corgi from me and it was sold to perform or work, you betcha, it does/did. And yes, each every one of them came from AKC showline dogs and even dogs I finished in the breed ring. That fire breathing pup of mine is out of AKC show lines. That bouvier that I use for breaking cattle, working ewes with lambs rams, and just about anything in herding, is out of AKC showlines. Those two awesome GSD bitches I trained to advanced level trial work and any farm work with 3 types of stock working over 40 acres were out of AKC show lines. Do I care if anyone considers them working lines or working dogs? Not in the least. Vicki shouldn't care either. And a working line aussie isn't all what the name "working" implies either. Lots of feral fear and aggression in the lines and temperaments and working ability are all over the place. I spent over ten years around them and have followed them through the ASCA world. Show line dogs aren't the only ones with issues. 

But we could turn this around. What do you want to call yours. You just bred a litter. Are they "working" dogs? Better check with Maren.

T


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## Joby Becker

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> You're all caught up in what someone calls a dog? If you bought a dog from me and gave it a good home for the length of its life, I don't give a damn what you call it. How many working line pedigrees are there out there that have nothing but sport titles. Now, for the record, I have bred AKC Pembroke Welsh Corgis and a GSD litter or two in the last 30 years. If you have a corgi from me and it was sold to perform or work, you betcha, it does/did. And yes, each every one of them came from AKC showline dogs and even dogs I finished in the breed ring. That fire breathing pup of mine is out of AKC show lines. That bouvier that I use for breaking cattle, working ewes with lambs rams, and just about anything in herding, is out of AKC showlines. Those two awesome GSD bitches I trained to advanced level trial work and any farm work with 3 types of stock working over 40 acres were out of AKC show lines. Do I care if anyone considers them working lines or working dogs? Not in the least. Vicki shouldn't care either. And a working line aussie isn't all what the name "working" implies either. Lots of feral fear and aggression in the lines and temperaments and working ability are all over the place. I spent over ten years around them and have followed them through the ASCA world. Show line dogs aren't the only ones with issues.
> 
> But we could turn this around. What do you want to call yours. You just bred a litter. Are they "working" dogs? Better check with Maren.
> 
> T


not yet...they are performance bred working line dogs...
again just thinking out loud, expressing my opinion...and you know what opinions are like, a--holes...everyone has one, you and me included...

if you call your dogs working dogs, and they did real work for you,,,then I agree...if they did not, then I dont agree, pretty simple..

If I bought a corgi from you that worked, and was bred from capable working dogs, from AKC lines, i would call the dog a dog bred from performance bred AKC lines, maybe even working lines, not showlines...but would personally not call my dog a working dog, unless I worked it at its real job...there are a small percentage of AKC dogs where this is the case in my mind...there is a big differnence to me in someone who has AKC dogs, that actually trains them and works them in a real function, than someone that breeds for show specifically..

I have never called my dog a PP dog, in fact I have stated many times she is NOT a PP dog. I have never referred to her specifically as a working dog, just a well bred dog from working lines...


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## Sara Waters

Bob Scott said:


> I agree 100% with that but the judge still has the right to make that choice and if he/she gets a few complaints that's all it takes. Things like that can happen a lot when you show up with a schutzhund dog. They don't like our heeling, our single commands and most especially when we beat them for first place. :twisted:
> I've had some of those "top competitors" come up to me after my ring time and tell me why I shouldn't have gotten the score I did. Often times, after they have ran to the judges, we wouldn't score as high the next day. Games are played in anything you do! ;-)
> Yes, many are serious competitors but the big majority are there for fun and nothing else.


Okay, I guess I dont see that among our reletively small trialing community. Our "top" competitiors hate the watering down of things, they like to win fair and square. Heeling styles are varied and accepted and I am not sure what you mean by single comands. I only ever give single commands in obedience and in agility I tend not give many commands at all, I train my dogs to body language. Judges hate it when competitiors complain and they usually get sent packing unless there is a really good reason LOL. I have had both judges and top competitiors come up to me and give me very helpful pointers and the judges usually take the time especially with novice dogs to give you a few helpful words at the end of the performance. Maybe the benefits of a reletively small trialing community.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Joby Becker said:


> not yet...they are performance bred working line dogs...
> again just thinking out loud, expressing my opinion...and you know what opinions are like, a--holes...everyone has one, you and me included...
> 
> if you call your dogs working dogs, and they did real work for you,,,then I agree...if they did not, then I dont agree, pretty simple..
> 
> If I bought a corgi from you that worked, and was bred from capable working dogs, from AKC lines, i would call the dog a dog bred from performance bred AKC lines, maybe even working lines, not showlines...but would personally not call my dog a working dog, unless I worked it at its real job...there are a small percentage of AKC dogs where this is the case in my mind...there is a big differnence to me in someone who has AKC dogs, that actually trains them and works them in a real function, than someone that breeds for show specifically..
> 
> I have never called my dog a PP dog, in fact I have stated many times she is NOT a PP dog. I have never referred to her specifically as a working dog, just a well bred dog from working lines...


 
Performance bred working line dogs a/k/a pimping pedigrees???? Well, you and Maren keep working at it. The Mods need to do one of those terms stickys so the next person that thinks they will offer up a rather benign topic won't get slammed by a bunch of defensive biters for misuse of someone's idea of terms and definitions.

T


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## Sara Waters

Maren Bell Jones said:


> My issue was because she was asking for guidance on how to select a dog for her sports, but she says she doesn't want to select working line Aussies. So why is someone asking about obedience and agility dogs from show lines on a working dog forum? It's like saying "I want a Belgian draft horse to show in driving" on a forum for hunter jumpers or dressage or barrel racing. I don't want her to leave as there are other folks that add a whole lot less to the forum than Vickey, I just was trying to say she'd be best served in that context on other forums. If she doesn't come back, I hope she finds her answers elsewhere.


I understand what you are saying and I personally will only buy BCs and kelpies from working lines. However I will say that one of Australia's top obedience dogs is a champion showline Aussie. I have seen this dog work and he is remarkable. We also have quite anumber of agility champions (not easy to gain this title) that are also show champions and shown consistently in the show ring. They compete up there with some very good working line dogs.

No I wouldnt buy them to work stock and I dont view them as having been bred in that capacity. But are they good dogs in agility and obedience, tracking and any other sport. You bet.

So may be they shouldnt be on a forum where the ethos is all about working line dogs, but can some of these showline champion dogs beat working line dogs in dogs sports, the answer is yes.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Sara Waters said:


> I understand what you are saying and I personally will only buy BCs and kelpies from working lines. However I will say that one of Australia's top obedience dogs is a champion showline Aussie. I have seen this dog work and he is remarkable. We also have quite anumber of agility champions (not easy to gain this title) that are also show champions and shown consistently in the show ring. They compete up there with some very good working line dogs.
> 
> No I wouldnt buy them to work stock and I dont view them as having been bred in that capacity. But are they good dogs in agility and obedience, tracking and any other sport. You bet.
> 
> So may be they shouldnt be on a forum where the ethos is all about working line dogs, but can some of these showline champion dogs beat working line dogs in dogs sports, the answer is yes.


Actually, she agreed with you--Maren. She said she chose showline aussies because they had less "aussie reserve." Having been around both, I know exactly what she means. Its an issue of reliable environmental and people nerve/stability. She basically said if she wasn't into showing and she did agility and herding, she would look at a working line aussie. Where you got that a showline dog isn't capable of a performance sport, I have no idea. You certainly herd with enough of them. Just think when you started herding if the response would have been ------oh no, not one of those killer bite work bred dogs. As she noted, this is a forum with sections for obedience, agility, herding, hunting--but maybe its just for dogs out of certain pedigrees; i.e. no show dogs.

T


----------



## Nicole Stark

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> As she noted, this is a forum with sections for obedience, agility, herding, hunting--but maybe its just for dogs out of certain pedigrees; i.e. no show dogs.
> 
> T


Meh. There's a considerable number of dogs without pedigrees owned/worked by people on this forum. Both of mine are mutts. I like that, no expectations and no need for explanations. They represent what you see; or, if you know what's behind them then ideally and in both cases literally, a distinct imprint of the dogs they were produced by.


----------



## Joby Becker

Im done with this topic...

just saying after seeing some posts by Maren, Chris, Don, and Peter...I thought more about what a working dog is...in reality...to ME...

my dog upon reflection must be a working dog after all, she has the jobs of amusing me, getting me off the couch and outside, engaging me in activities that I like to do, giving me a reason to socialize with others that have the same interests as me, giving me a HOBBY, keeping my feet warm, huggin me, and of course giving me a reason to blabber on here... etc.. etc..

working dog or not, I dont care what people call their dog...I just know what I call my dog (s)..

I was just at the vet on tuesday...someone was asking about Dutch Shepherds..I said they are bred for work, and dont make the best pet dogs for average pet owners to one lady...

I told another guy my dog was bred from working lines that produce police type dogs, and that she had a fair amount of protection type training, so gettin on the ground and hugging her might not be a great idea...

never have told someone flat out she IS a working dog...that is all I am trying to say...Even my SCH guy that breeds working line GSD says he breeds working lines, I have head him say this many times, but have never heard him say he breeds working dogs, and he has sold several that became PSD...he has told me his dogs are NOT working dogs..because he is not doing sport actively with them....so for him...if he was doing sport, they would be working dogs...good for him...
\
Im OUT of this thread..

Vicki is really a goofy addition to this board, I hope she comes back. some topics were not appropriate at all I dont think, but who am I?
overall she has been as entertaining as anyone else has..and even informative a few times.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Joby Becker said:


> Im done with this topic...
> 
> 
> my dog upon reflection must be a working dog after all, she has the jobs of amusing me, getting me off the couch and outside, engaging me in activities that I like to do, giving me a reason to socialize with others that have the same interests as me, giving me a HOBBY, keeping my feet warm, huggin me, and of course giving me a reason to blabber on here... etc.. etc..


I think that's exactly what Vicky said about hers. I've learned not to stereotype and engage in bias based on pedigrees or titles for that matter. You show me a dog that has has the mental package I'm looking for and I don't care what "line" you want to call it and lately I might not care what breed or mix. I don't think anyone's participation in one activity or another gives them the right to dictate to others what they call their dog or their dog's worth. 

The thread wasn't about the definition of working. It was about how others choose a puppy. It got derailed because some folks saw an opening to try to play superior.

T


----------



## David Ruby

Don Turnipseed said:


> I think working a dog in bitework really has value. Go back to David Ruby's post. It has done wonders for David! Not one apology for being new to bitework and possibly not knowing what he is talking about etc, etc. He has come a long way.


Fine, go back to my post. What, specifically, did I say that was either A) inflammatory or B) untrue? I'm new to it and pretty up front about that. However, I have neither seen, nor heard from anybody who is experienced in this stuff, anything leading me to believe your dogs when faced with a sports decoy did anything _other_ than conflict avoidance. Am I a rookie? Sure. However, those that _aren't_ all seemed to agree your dogs were doing something other than "just not taking it seriously." Even I have seen that. If the dogs had hung around, goofed off, or looked confused, that's what I'd have seen. When dogs flat out run off (which I've also seen), I have never heard an agitator say "oh, y'see, that's a serious dog, he know's we're BS'ing so he won't take it seriously."

If you want me to apologize, please tell me for what? If I am wrong, by all means explain it to me. I am always open to being wrong or learning something new. And yes, if I am wrong or have maligned you unjustly, I will apologize. I disagree with your assessment that your dogs are natural protectors, but they just didn't take things seriously. If they do, I fail to see how that would be suitable to the work then. Of course, being new to this mind you, I would actually work with somebody who knew what they were doing in this and troubleshoot. You had one incident where your dogs did not act as you predicted, you were man enough to stand up to it, however you believe you have it all figured out.

Your explanation of that makes no sense to me. It's like me calling out Mike Tyson, getting in the ring, getting knocked out in the time it took him to walk across that ring, and saying it was because I was not taking it seriously, or claiming that I had a revelation and would get him next time, but that I was going to ignore my trainers' advice. You had at least one fairly local and accomplished forum member offering to meet with you and work your dogs in manwork and you seem to have declined. In this case, if you live in a bubble and nobody challenges your assumptions you get to believe you have it figured out and some possible "next time" scenario turns out better however it may also never happen. I realize sport is not your thing, and it is not the same thing as real personal protection or police work (excluding KNPV which is effectively training just for that). However, sport people are coming from a place where they at least back up their claims, regularly. You have to admit, there is something to be said for that.

This is also a forum, which sort of invites open discussion on this stuff. I did not go out of my way to call you out on this. I will say, if you expect us as forum members to believe you've got a better way, you are going to have to do a little better. They are going to probably want to see a little proof. Again, it's a forum. Would you rather we didn't discuss this stuff?



> I would say he has just about completed his initiation and is ready to be titled. :wink:


Hey, I'm just an inquiring mind.

-Cheers


----------



## Gena Ratcliff

I went back to the OP and read this entire thread once again... Vicki posed an honest question regarding picking a puppy, not just how she picks, but expressing an interest in the methodology that you "working dog" folk used in picking a pup. At around post 15, when she had defined the breeding pair as show champs, the discussion morphed into... Well you can all read and see what it became.

When she later made her graceful exit and I got snarky, the conversation once again became relatively civil, though not necessarily on point regarding the OP. I hope Vicki sticks around, and I'm almost certain that, if she does, she will be very careful about where she posts her queries.

I will take this opportunity to apologize for the snark... I, too, am here to learn and appreciate the folk who take the time to explain a term or training method in a non-combative way. I completely get the working dog, working line, show line thing and I understand the animus between the show line and working line camp. I'm one of those people that dread the moment a new breed gets crowned at Crufts or Westminster because I can almost hear the puppy mills and backyard breeders cranking up production... But that is another topic for a different location on this forum.

Gena


----------



## David Ruby

Gena Ratcliff said:


> I went back to the OP and read this entire thread once again... Vicki posed an honest question regarding picking a puppy, not just how she picks, but expressing an interest in the methodology that you "working dog" folk used in picking a pup.
> 
> [snip]
> 
> I hope Vicki sticks around


Ditto. I can see some room for disagreement within the post without it getting so personal. I mean, it's the General section. Sure, the OP might be better served on a pet forum or more OB-competition based forum. That said, we discuss some pretty off-the-topic-of-dogs stuff here without it turning into a free for all. Plus, as a topic, it is totally legit. Regardless of whether the OP means it for working dog stuff or not, it is a legitimate topic. We're on page 15 or so at this point, so the thread is probably beyond much hope. Still, it's interesting to hear how breeders pick their dogs for working homes, be that police, sport, hunting, or other, pet homes, and how some of their dogs turn out differently than they expected when they evaluated them as pups. There _IS _a good conversation to be had there, and some good points came up even if it did get buried.

I dunno, it's Friday. Maybe we should all just chill out for a bit. Look up one of Lee's tropical drink recipes. My wife would probably like one or two of those tonight as a matter of fact.

-Cheers


----------



## Connie Sutherland

david ruby said:


> maybe we should all just chill out for a bit. Look up one of lee's tropical drink recipes.
> 
> -cheers



OK ! :lol:


----------



## Don Turnipseed

A really good pet dog is a working dog in it's own right. It's job is making it's owner happy. Pretty much sums up all a dog has to do today to be classified as a working dog. A good pet dog is on the job 24/7 doing his job. I sometimes wonder how they do it. I can almost hear the wheels turning in their heads when it's boss calls...."What the fuk do they want now??? I bet they want me to perform tricks for their company again. Damned, give a dog a break!!!"


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## Joby Becker

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Performance bred working line dogs a/k/a pimping pedigrees???? Well, you and Maren keep working at it. The Mods need to do one of those terms stickys so the next person that thinks they will offer up a rather benign topic won't get slammed by a bunch of defensive biters for misuse of someone's idea of terms and definitions.
> 
> T


not sure what you mean here...pedigree pimping? I bred my dog based on her own merits, she just happens to come from a great pedigree as well as being a good dog.

If you were interested in a pup and wanted to come work my dog, you would be welcome to, as several people that selected pups did...2 of the people that bought pups, also tried to purchase her as well.

People also worked the sire, who is titled in SCH, FR, MR, PSA and has won or placed 2nd at many (at least 10) PP tournaments. 

Both dogs were tested in muzzle for handler protection in street clothes, by different people, and did well. 

Its just a personal thing for me, my dog is a pet, training her is a hobby, she does not perform any REAL work in my opinion, that is all I was trying to say. She is from working lines, but in my mind is not a working dog, as say a PSD, or MWD would be, in my mind. If she was from show lines, I would also still not call her a working dog...

As far as your comments about terminology, fine...but you have also been known to digress to arguing terminology, so include yourself in the mix with me and Maren.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Joby Becker said:


> not sure what you mean here...pedigree pimping? I bred my dog based on her own merits, she just happens to come from a great pedigree as well as being a good dog.
> 
> If you were interested in a pup and wanted to come work my dog, you would be welcome to, as several people that selected pups did...2 of the people that bought pups, also tried to purchase her as well.
> 
> People also worked the sire, who is titled in SCH, FR, MR, PSA and has won or placed 2nd at many (at least 10) PP tournaments.
> 
> Both dogs were tested in muzzle for handler protection in street clothes, by different people, and did well.
> 
> Its just a personal thing for me, my dog is a pet, training her is a hobby, she does not perform any REAL work in my opinion, that is all I was trying to say. She is from working lines, but in my mind is not a working dog, as say a PSD, or MWD would be, in my mind. If she was from show lines, I would also still not call her a working dog...
> 
> As far as your comments about terminology, fine...but you have also been known to digress to arguing terminology, so include yourself in the mix with me and Maren.


Terminology discussion is one thing. Running someone and ridiculing them and their dogs is something altogether different and I'll leave that mix to Maren. I certainly wouldn't spend post after post on lashing someone like Vicky regarding how she characterized her dogs. Its been obvious what her level of doggie participation is. She was just starting a thread--more like making conversation. She's been here for months with folks cheering her on regarding working for her obedience titles. Now she posts that she is picking out of two breed champions with obedience and agility titles and Maren tells her she should go ask somewhere else and why is she here on this forum. That's not a terms discussion. That's called go away, you don't belong here. 


T


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## Maren Bell Jones

I could care less if she does doggie musical freestyle with her dogs, as whatever people enjoy doing is their business. But this is not the best forum to ask about the kind of dog she is interested in since probably at least 3/4 of the regulars on here do some sort of bitework based activity, not agility or AKC obedience. And I disagreed heavily with her calling show or performance dogs as working dogs. So what? Stop injecting some sort of imaginary malice like you pretty much always do with any of my posts. Thanks.


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## Peter Cavallaro

Lets just all be more metro towards each other.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I could care less if she does doggie musical freestyle with her dogs, as whatever people enjoy doing is their business. But this is not the best forum to ask about the kind of dog she is interested in since probably at least 3/4 of the regulars on here do some sort of bitework based activity, not agility or AKC obedience. And I disagreed heavily with her calling show or performance dogs as working dogs. So what? Stop injecting some sort of imaginary malice like you pretty much always do with any of my posts. Thanks.


 
Imaginary malice???? As for any of your posts, most I don't get to and certainly don't respond to. I didn't read all of Vicky's either and I've skipped the Metrosexual thread so far. We have LOTS of non dog related threads so a question posed to the gallery regarding how others pick a puppy seemed like a great working dog topic. She didn't ask how to pick a show dog puppy or how to pick an AKC obedience puppy really. As she reiterated, she wanted to know how others picked a puppy. What difference does it make that 3/4 of the folks do bitework. There's obedience in just about all bitework and she said obedience was her primary focus. So if its a competition dog, then it has to have some level of adaptability to new/different environments. It has to have a level of cooperation and trainability. People and environment stability come to mind. Don't all bitework people consider such traits? Its the perfect forum to ask about an obedience dog or picking a puppy that you will train especially for competition and if it isn't maybe its best for Mike Schoonrood to make a statement in that regard. But its all for naught isn't it. Looks like she took your advice to take a hike and seek a more compatible forum.

T


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## Peter Cavallaro

What u never read the metro thread, yr loss AND yr off my christmas card list.


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## Lynda Myers

Wooow, who would've believed there was so much intolerance for people seeking information about how others do stuff! 
Isn't there a law or some such thing against cyber bullying? A couple of you bullied Vicki right off this board. For no other reason then the parents of a litter she's considering are show champions with some OB/Agility titles! Thats as wrong as to right shoes! Shamie, shamie on you. 
I thought the whole point of a "WORKING DOG" Forum was the discussion of things like PUPPY selection, training, trialing, styles and methods use to name few.
Really who gives a rat ass if Vicki only does OB and agility? I challenge anyone who berated Vicki for her sports of choice to give it a go, especially AKC OB. Then come back and tell us how easy it was and that its not a real test of control under distractions.
Man ya all better pray the show people never set their sights on the dog sports for real! Because then they'll have it all, pretty, health, environment/people soundness and working ability.


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## Joby Becker

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Terminology discussion is one thing. Running someone and ridiculing them and their dogs is something altogether different and I'll leave that mix to Maren. I certainly wouldn't spend post after post on lashing someone like Vicky regarding how she characterized her dogs. Its been obvious what her level of doggie participation is. She was just starting a thread--more like making conversation. She's been here for months with folks cheering her on regarding working for her obedience titles. Now she posts that she is picking out of two breed champions with obedience and agility titles and Maren tells her she should go ask somewhere else and why is she here on this forum. That's not a terms discussion. That's called go away, you don't belong here.
> 
> T


all I did was point out my views on the AKC, and share my thinking process I had about the term "working dog" and how I view it personally, after reading some good posts that made sense. 

You are the one that jumped all over me for stating what I think a working dog is personally in my own mind, and implied that if someone chooses to use the wording of performance bred, or from working lines, when their dog is not a true working dog in function in their mind, that there is some kind of problem or something is dishonest with that...when that person is trying to be honest about their dogs function in regards to "work".

I was not aligning myself with Maren, just posting what I think about the akc, and breeders that breed "show dogs" from "working breeds" that do not test or train for the working traits, and claim to breed to the standard, but neglect the parts about the function and the temperament of the breeds, I think we can all agree that that practice had severely hurt functionality of many breeds, all to make the dogs more marketable..

that is what I was sayin...


----------



## Randy Allen

So Lynda, Terrasita (and others) you think that Vick wanted opions about picking a working line dog?

I don't think I was among the gtf outta of town crowd, but on the other hand why would one ask a working line group about choosing a show line dog?

It dunt make sense to me.


----------



## tracey schneider

Good greif... Lol.... doesn't everyone on this board do some form of obedience many in a competitive fashion? Idk how many pages I just read with no response to her actual question ? no one can share what certain components of a dog are preferred or needed, what not to select etc? this thread is now at a point where your arguing about arguing and still no help to this lady 

Agility is OB beyond the structure, which she admitted selecting away from, or is there more to it than that? Is is there really no one who can share what to look for what they would select upon? 

I dont to either as an individual component but I would not take the most dominant. I would not take the most independent. I would look for a dog that has a lot of interested in me specifically over other dogs. I would look for dogs that could retain attention and focus on an object or task. I would not select the 1 that loses interest to quickly. I would selected a dog that is very happy lol. I would make sure it has some kind of drive or interest in what and how I planned to train it. physical, physical your picking away from that in the lines you looking at , but out of the litter I would pick the 1 that best suited my needs for agility. and for any owner I would select a dog that is confident and has a very fast recovery. how I would test for this is I would stress the dogs to see which 1 the recovers the fastest and is the hardest to stress.

anyway that is my attempt at helping, and I hope you don't leave because I think we all learn something from each other. and I personally would enjoy hearing from someone who can teach their dog to dance haha


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## maggie fraser

Come on.... did Vikki find herself here by accident ? I mean...showline haters, extreme trainers, deranged breeders, whacky fry by night collar gurus', why do you think she posted in the Lounge ?? She posted a lot previously in 'Conflict free' This was my point... and I'm sticking to it ! :lol:


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## Peter Cavallaro

What was the point there??


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## maggie fraser

Peter Cavallaro said:


> What was the point there??


Who are you askin' ?


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## Peter Cavallaro

Why you my dear.



Just missed yr point in listing those people you did, i'm one of the hard at gettin it types.


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## maggie fraser

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Why you my dear.
> 
> 
> 
> Just missed yr point in listing those people you did, i'm one of the hard at gettin it types.


My point is....it was posted for crack !!! Intentionally...or otherwise! However, I am Scottish and to me the whole thread was a laff, how could it be anything different ?? I mean.... I find most most things funny, but not everything you know!! This one is one funny thread !!


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## Peter Cavallaro

Thanks for elaborating on yr point.....strangely I still dont get it, my problem I guess.


My point would be that i find it amusing how bite sports people try so hard to distinguish themselves as a whole different thing to other performance venues, lol, that is self delusional.


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## maggie fraser

What was the point of posing such a question, in this forum, on this board, pretending/asserting to be non confrontational ? Response... or reaction ??


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## Peter Cavallaro

The point of that point currently eludes me, mebbe this is pointless pointing.


----------



## maggie fraser

Peter Cavallaro said:


> The point of that point currently eludes me, mebbe this is pointless pointing.


You could have a point there, point is though, folks like a thread they can point at....that was my point.

I'm ouuta here,,,, did my good deed for the day!


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Joby Becker said:


> all I did was point out my views on the AKC, and share my thinking process I had about the term "working dog" and how I view it personally, after reading some good posts that made sense.
> 
> You are the one that jumped all over me for stating what I think a working dog is personally in my own mind, and implied that if someone chooses to use the wording of performance bred, or from working lines, when their dog is not a true working dog in function in their mind, that there is some kind of problem or something is dishonest with that...when that person is trying to be honest about their dogs function in regards to "work".
> 
> I was not aligning myself with Maren, just posting what I think about the akc, and breeders that breed "show dogs" from "working breeds" that do not test or train for the working traits, and claim to breed to the standard, but neglect the parts about the function and the temperament of the breeds, I think we can all agree that that practice had severely hurt functionality of many breeds, all to make the dogs more marketable..
> 
> that is what I was sayin...


Nooooo, you posted a particular post to me regarding what would I call a dog I sold you if you didn't do anything with it---hypothetically. Yeah and I would agree about that practice but since I know some that do pay attention to the historical function and temperament regarding mental package, I don't think that you can generalize. AKC is what it is but breeders breed dogs, not registries.

T


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Randy Allen said:


> So Lynda, Terrasita (and others) you think that Vick wanted opions about picking a working line dog?
> 
> I don't think I was among the gtf outta of town crowd, but on the other hand why would one ask a working line group about choosing a show line dog?
> 
> It dunt make sense to me.


Vicky just wanted to know how "others" pick a puppy---period. I don't think she even thought in terms of what line. Like she said--how others pick them. I guess if you responded you say the general [for me people and environmental nerves] and then the specific venue [for me livestock]. I've picked puppies for folks for different venues and behavior/traits relating to people, environment, trainability aren't any different than what I want in my herding dogs. What most people don't get is that she really didn't ask anyone about picking a show line dog. Once she mentioned that the parents were show champions, folks couldn't turn it loose. Personally, I'm kinda interested in how SAR people like Jim Delbridge look at puppy selection and even some of the protection selection criteria. She reiterated that she didn't want any conflict or was really getting into what's working and what's not--just puppy selection.

T


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## Randy Allen

Whoa guys, let's not get into he did she didn't. Let's keep it on topic for the op.

My point (issue?) is why ask here? While there are pluses that would cross over to Vicky's venue/s some of the over riding drives WL dog people prefer would likely completely disqualify the dog for AKC events outside of tracking. At lest within the normal handlers parameters.

I stated before, there's many here that could help her with finding a nice dog, but it may be not what she's actually looking for because the people here are WL dog people.

We all know or can look up the standards but WL people look for and demand considerably more in temperament than what I think is necessary or wanted for agility or AKC show ring.

AND that was one of the first questions asked and answered if I'm not mistaken. 'What do you plan on for the dog?'


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Randy Allen said:


> Whoa guys, let's not get into he did she didn't. Let's keep it on topic for the op.
> 
> My point (issue?) is why ask here? While there are pluses that would cross over to Vicky's venue/s some of the over riding drives WL dog people prefer would likely completely disqualify the dog for AKC events outside of tracking. At lest within the normal handlers parameters.
> 
> I stated before, there's many here that could help her with finding a nice dog, but it may be not what she's actually looking for because the people here are WL dog people.
> 
> We all know or can look up the standards but WL people look for and demand considerably more in temperament than what I think is necessary or wanted for agility or AKC show ring.
> 
> AND that was one of the first questions asked and answered if I'm not mistaken. 'What do you plan on for the dog?'


 
I guess you've never heard of AKC tiled, Sch titled "working line" dogs. I don't think she really put that much thought into it. AGAIN, she didn't ask anyone to pick a dog for her for her venue or from the lines/dogs she was considering. She was just curious how others went about it. I do think its interesting that you think a WL dog would have traits that would disqualify it from AKC type events. You also assume that WL people demand more than what is necessary or wanted for agility. As for what is wanted for the AKC show ring, no one went there. You almost hint that a WL dog is unstable. For her it didn't matter what she planned for her dog. She was curious how others picked for what they did. I don't know why that's so hard to understand. You're not any more keeping on topic for the OP than what has been said before. The OP asked "how do others pick a puppy." I don't think you realize there are dogs that put in a good days work on Friday and strut around a breed ring on Saturday and Sunday and come home both evenings and do the farm chores. I think there are a lot of generalizations and assumptions about dogs that many here may not hve a lot of involvement here. Both gene pools have their bottom of the barrel. One isn't any better than the other if you disregard the politics and just look at dogs for the sake of dogs.

T


----------



## Randy Allen

And I said it before now. I don't judge what someone does with their dog as long as their doing something, it's all good by me. 
And I said it before now. One venue does not negate the other, only that IMHO the cross over is the exception. 
And those exceptions are worked as a routine in a routine day which make both them and their owners rare.
As a general rule most only have time or interest for one or the other.

Right now I've got to feed the dogs. 
I doubt that anyone wants my scattered brain ideas on how I pick dogs but if Vicky or anyone else wants them I'll give it a shot.
Later.


----------



## Gena Ratcliff

I will repeat again what a couple others have repeated...

Vicki was NOT looking for help picking a puppy. She was expressing an interest in how working dog folk pick their puppies. She was interested in y'all and your method of matching pup to activity.

Simple interest from a new person trying to get to know puppy picking from a different viewpoint...


----------



## Randy Allen

And I repeat, she was asked and she answered what she was looking for as a result.
I (and others) don't suppose to judge what she was looking for as an end, only where she was looking for it.


----------



## Chris McDonald

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I could care less if she does doggie musical freestyle with her dogs, as whatever people enjoy doing is their business. But this is not the best forum to ask about the kind of dog she is interested in since probably at least 3/4 of the regulars on here do some sort of bitework based activity, not agility or AKC obedience. And I disagreed heavily with her calling show or performance dogs as working dogs. So what? Stop injecting some sort of imaginary malice like you pretty much always do with any of my posts. Thanks.


This says it all. I can just sit back and let hypocrites like you and Susan hang yourselves. (Susa wanted proof and people just came out one after the other) What in the world does ¾ of the members of this fourm doing bite work have anything to do with anything? Absolutely nothing. Even if ¾ of the members here do-do bite work for 99 percent of them/ us it equates to nothing more than a dog tugging on jute or other material. It’s a game like darts or bowling, except when things don’t go well you can partially blame the dog and not yourself. If I can do it with my greyhound to do it im sure Vicki can very get her dogs to wag there tall and tug on jute on someone’s arm like the 99 percent of the ¾ of the members here. And if they don’t who cares it’s a game for almost all of us. It’s completely comical that you think the bite work you do is serious. Although I don’t agree with the AKC they are doing no less to wreak dogs as most other sports especially ones with bite work. You and Susan are the one with imagination here. You think your dog sport is worthy because it involves a dog tugging on a sleeve. That’s as goofy as people who think the color of a belt has anything much to do with if that person is tough or can fight. ....


----------



## Sara Waters

Randy Allen said:


> We all know or can look up the standards but WL people look for and demand considerably more in temperament than what I think is necessary or wanted for agility or AKC show ring.
> 
> AND that was one of the first questions asked and answered if I'm not mistaken. 'What do you plan on for the dog?'


Well that is a whole lot of crock about agility. Sorry, but often the working bred sheep dogs with too much attitude are just what the top agility folk are looking for. I run one myself. He is also my sheepdog and to be an ideal sheepdog he needs to dial it back. In the agility ring however I love it that he is a whole lot of dog LOL, super fast and growls in excitement when he enters a tunnel at full speed. 

Where miliseconds count at the top levels of agility, speed and attitude are everything. Then you need the ability to handle and train them, and we have some brilliant handlers, running in both ANKC and ADAA agility.

He takes some handling and keeps me on my toes and he would no doubt be even better with a top handler. There are also some very intense high drive showbred Border collies that run agility, make no mistake about that. Wouldnt like them on sheep at all.

I expect there are some high drive mals at the top levels of agility too and other working line dogs.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Terrasita, why don't you us both a favor and just put me on ignore? I don't have a problem with you, but you've had one with me for years for reasons beyond my understanding. You do a great job of ignoring me at area events, which suits me just fine. I'd return the favor and put you on ignore as well if I knew how to. 

Chris, what a poor trolling attempt, but not surprising coming from the definition of a backyard champion.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Sara Waters said:


> I expect there are some high drive mals at the top levels of agility too and other working line dogs.


You see high drive Malinois at the top level of agility, but those individuals are often doing agility, flyball, dock diving, etc. and not police work or protection sport because they usually lack the attitude and fortitude that the Malinois was developed for. Like my female Mal does herding (and would probably do agility or flyball if she didn't have a neurological limp since she's super fast) because she's not really too cut out for more serious training in PSA. She's got a bit of a civil side to her, but she's super soft, so not the most ideal temperament for protection sport. Francis M.'s post here explains it better:



> Hard Dogs, Soft Arts: If you think a Malinois is perfect for Agility, Rally, Obedience, or Herding, think again. Be smart and get a Border Collie. Border Collies are ideal dogs for sports not requiring bite work. Malinois are designed for Hard Arts like: French Ring, Belgian Ring, Mondioring, Schutzhund and KNPV. Sure, they also excel in non-bitework competitions. But drive-building, grip-development, and stimulus-control techniques make the Malinois Temperment complete.


http://bayareadogtrainer.wordpress.com/2011/05/16/note-to-the-american-public-belgian-malinois-look-dont-touch/


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Terrasita, why don't you us both a favor and just put me on ignore? I don't have a problem with you, but you've had one with me for years for reasons beyond my understanding. You do a great job of ignoring me at area events, which suits me just fine. I'd return the favor and put you on ignore as well if I knew how to.
> 
> Chris, what a poor trolling attempt, but not surprising coming from the definition of a backyard champion.


Maren, you're funny. Now you're a victim? Problem with you??? Nahhhhh, not really. You just happen to post some pretty slamming opinions on some topics that are sort of near and dear to me. If I had a "problem" with you, I wouldn't have been out there in the blazing heat helping your helper with Fawkes' out. As for local events, I've never noticed you making any attempts for interaction or conversation. I'm pretty good at respecting other folks' space and its been obvious that it "suits you just fine." Mostly if I respond on a topic, its not personal to you or anyone else. Its a response for the masses or as Joby says, thinking out loud. Like everyone else I have a few pet topics and if I respond, its just my thoughts or something that I think the masses ought to consider as an alternative or in support. Unless its about herding, GSDs, some health topics, I usually read and not respond. Of course a good game of verbal volleyball with Joby and Peter can be kinda fun depending on what mood I'm in.

As for the "ignore" function, I don't need that favor but I'm sure any of the mods can help you out. I'm not that affected by you or anyone else on this forum that I would figure out the ignore function. If you post something here, chances are someone could disagree with it and say so and even ask you why are you here. People who don't want to deal with other's responses to what they say, usually lurk and don't say anything. I read stuff that catches my interest and ignore the rest already. Some things trigger or merit comment and some things don't. Some threads/posts are just good for revisiting my thoughts on certain things.

T


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## Sara Waters

Maren Bell Jones said:


> You see high drive Malinois at the top level of agility, but those individuals are often doing agility, flyball, dock diving, etc. and not police work or protection sport because they usually lack the attitude and fortitude that the Malinois was developed for. Like my female Mal does herding (and would probably do agility or flyball if she didn't have a neurological limp since she's super fast) because she's not really too cut out for more serious training in PSA. She's got a bit of a civil side to her, but she's super soft, so not the most ideal temperament for protection sport. Francis M.'s post here explains it better:
> 
> 
> 
> http://bayareadogtrainer.wordpress....ican-public-belgian-malinois-look-dont-touch/


Maren, because I am not familar with the Mal and rarely see them where I live, I will defer to your greater knowledge of them unless anyone has anything more to say.

However I will say this. Border collies are working dogs, they are among the most widely used working dogs in the world and work some of the toughest herding gigs on this planet, as do cattle dogs and kelpies and koolies. Outback Australia, mountain country, scrub country and feral livestock in some cases.

Not every working dog is about protection.

Maybe I too am in the wrong forum as obviously my working collies and kelpies, cattledogs are not really working dogs as they are also suitable for agility and obedience and therefore must lack fortitude to work.

You see on my avatar I have chosen agility as herding wasnt an option. My dogs are formost my working dogs and without them I would not be able to manage my sheep. They also do agility. My BC in particular has the fortitude to handle aggressive ewes at lambing, without damaging them but dealing with some very aggressive butting and charging and he also is lots of fun to run in agility and has all the qualities for a top agility dog if his handler was more experienced.

Working dogs and agility is not mutually exclusive if you acknowledge that there is more than one type of working dog in this world.

Some of the old stockmen I know are probably some of the best dog handlers in the world with their stock dogs and their dogs some of the best working dogs, tough, uncompromising and will work hard in extreme conditions and remain stable and calm enough to perform some very brainy stockwork, while avoiding getting their brains bashed out.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Sara Waters said:


> Well that is a whole lot of crock about agility. Sorry, but often the working bred sheep dogs with too much attitude are just what the top agility folk are looking for. I run one myself. He is also my sheepdog and to be an ideal sheepdog he needs to dial it back. In the agility ring however I love it that he is a whole lot of dog LOL, super fast and growls in excitement when he enters a tunnel at full speed.
> 
> Where miliseconds count at the top levels of agility, speed and attitude are everything. Then you need the ability to handle and train them, and we have some brilliant handlers, running in both ANKC and ADAA agility.
> 
> He takes some handling and keeps me on my toes and he would no doubt be even better with a top handler. There are also some very intense high drive showbred Border collies that run agility, make no mistake about that. Wouldnt like them on sheep at all.
> 
> I expect there are some high drive mals at the top levels of agility too and other working line dogs.


There was a time you could read this forum without joining. I started reading it to get a handle on the drives of my herding dog who is more like a ring sport dog with her prey and fight. Thinking in terms of drives as a protection sport person would, considering the topics on self capping and marker training enabled me to get a lot more out of her. Joby posted a video on his puppy biting and I thought geez that's all they think of is bite, bite, bite. After the video the discussion turned into pushing into the bite. A week later I'm working my demon puppy who was 5 months old and the duck decides to over-run him and he grabs it and as I'm getting to him, I notice he is trying to fill his entire mouth with the duck's body and pushing into it. I had a hard time seeing that in some of the suit videos but it was really obvious with my duck. And no, the quacker is still working as a training duck and Rhemy has learned that there are alternatives to trying to swallow it whole if it is dumb enough to try to run toward and over the dog. Protection dogs came from herding dogs--same drives and really same issues in the work--just different decoys. Its amazing to see some our local working sheepdogs at the agility trials when I go watch. I see them as calm and methodical on the sheep field and they are in full tilt prey drive lightening speed on the agility field. Its like they have an alter ego.

T


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## Sara Waters

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Its amazing to see some our local working sheepdogs at the agility trials when I go watch. I see them as calm and methodical on the sheep field and they are in full tilt prey drive lightening speed on the agility field. Its like they have an alter ego.
> 
> T


Yes that is a good description and they are much sort after by agility handlers. My boy very much has an alter ego on the agility field. Pure speed and drive.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Sara Waters said:


> Maren, because I am not familar with the Mal and rarely see them where I live, I will defer to your greater knowledge of them unless anyone has anything more to say.
> 
> However I will say this. Border collies are working dogs, they are among the most widely used working dogs in the world and work some of the toughest herding gigs on this planet, as do cattle dogs and kelpies and koolies. Outback Australia, mountain country, scrub country and feral livestock in some cases.
> 
> Not every working dog is about protection.
> 
> Maybe I too am in the wrong forum as obviously my working collies and kelpies, cattledogs are not really working dogs as they are also suitable for agility and obedience and therefore must lack fortitude to work.
> 
> You see on my avatar I have chosen agility as herding wasnt an option. My dogs are formost my working dogs and without them I would not be able to manage my sheep. They also do agility. My BC in particular has the fortitude to handle aggressive ewes at lambing, without damaging them but dealing with some very aggressive butting and charging and he also is lots of fun to run in agility and has all the qualities for a top agility dog if his handler was more experienced.
> 
> Working dogs and agility is not mutually exclusive if you acknowledge that there is more than one type of working dog in this world.
> 
> Some of the old stockmen I know are probably some of the best dog handlers in the world with their stock dogs and their dogs some of the best working dogs, tough, uncompromising and will work hard in extreme conditions and remain stable and calm enough to perform some very brainy stockwork, while avoiding getting their brains bashed out.


 
I don't really discuss Mals either because I haven't lived with, raised or worked enough of them. I think there are lots of variations on that theme. I think some of the responses regarding the NVBK mals and how they differ are interesting. Like you I don't get the idea that dogs that do other things are probably per se doing those other things because they are unable to do protection sport. There are all levels of protection sport and really when you consider that the majority are only capable of club level titles, you keep it in perspective. I once watched a working line dog do bite work and decided I wanted to test him in herding. That dog is AKC herding titled, a Sch III, AKC CDX and has performed as a working SAR dog. He is absolutely balanced and socially reliable. Years ago when I first started in dogs, it was quite common for the local Sch people to get AKC obedience titles on their dogs. Yet its been stated here that working dogs would probably be "disqualified" for other sport venues other than tracking. Bob would have to correct me if I'm wrong but I would swear I've heard him say that an AKC TDX track is more difficult than a Sch III track.


T


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## Joby Becker

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Joby posted a video on his puppy biting and I thought geez that's all they think of is bite, bite, bite.
> T


???

So because someone posted a video of biting, and the discussion was about biting, you assume that is all "they" think about is biting?

I think about a lot of things besides biting, but that is what I enjoy most about owning "working type" dogs. That is where my interest is the greatest.

To say that "protection dogs" came from herding dogs is not how it really is.... The protection dogs that came from herding dogs, came from herding dogs, the others did not. There are many many breeds being used for protection work, that do not come from herders.

Before getting into herding "breeds", I was into mostly "performance bred" mollosers. Starting with the Rottweiler and then into the Presa Canario.

same drives and issues? different decoys??? I would not go so far as to say that, sure in some ways, concerning some breeds, and some individual dogs.

I think the big difference comes into play in the biting, when it comes to how a dog responds in biting and fighting a person. To assume that a dog that can do great herding, or hunting, or taking down animals, has everything it needs to be a great protection dog prospect is pretty silly in my book. Does great herding skills, detract from a protection dog? NO of course not, but there is a major difference in working animals and working people, and if you are getting a dog with an interest in doing bitework, how he performs in the bitework, is far more valuable than how he works animals.

I do not see many people picking (biting) sport dogs, protection dogs, or police dogs, based on their ability to herd, do you?

Could it hurt to pick dogs that are great herders? no of course not, but herding ability is not a main requirement for the job for some people.

The functions have shifted greatly in many breeds, and the order of importance on selecting for certain traits, has also shifted if looking for dogs that will perform in the functions one is looking to get dogs for.

To say that because a dog can bite a duck, that is the same as biting a person, and stay in the fight when the person is fighting them, is ridiculous in my mind. If I was looking for a protection dog, that would be my main focus, not how he can herd, or how he bites ducks, if the breeder also herded with the dogs, I wouldnt mind, would check it out, if he was willing to show me, but it would not make a big difference to me.

If I took a pup that I bought for "protection" work, and it did not herd well, I wouldn't be heart broken, if he did, then hey great...

I would think on the flip side, that most people looking for herding dogs, do not select their dogs for the ability to do protection work.

I would say the biting dogs, are what many people are interested in here, but not all. obviously there are herding people, and hunting people, and detection people, and search dog people, tracking/trailing and others...

as far as the AKC goes, I do not like what it does to the working breeds that decide to become a part of it, on a whole. By shifting the focus of the majority of breeders to breed for show, and not even be concerned with functionality, other than the dog will show well, and will make more ideal pets for the popularity explosion that occurs. Often when breeds enter into a registry, and the books are finally closed, that closes off huge pools of dogs that are actually able to do functional work, because they are not in the books, and in other cases, the changes made to the standards along the way, actually make breeds less functional.

That being said I have worked with many AKC registered dogs that were very good dogs as well. Point is this, to assume a dog will be good at something, without testing for and training for it, is plain dumb, even if it is based on the dogs performance in another area...some abilities do compliment eachother for sure...but to say a herding dog is the same as a protection dog, but just with a different decoy, I cant agree with that. That to me is saying the same as a hunting dog is the same as a protection dog, just a different decoy.


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## Gillian Schuler

Don Turnipseed said:


> Bottom line, working dogs are ultimately judged by the work they do, not by a point scoring system and a judge or a panel of judges for looking like they can do a job. They actually have to do the job. No matter how many titles many sport dogs, or hunting trial dogs get, it is the job they do that is the final determining factor as to their worth.....in the real world anyway. If a working dog also has titles, that is great, but, having titles in no way makes it a real working dog....just a well trained dog. Big difference. Example, most any of my dogs will hunt, some hunt for themselves, some hunt with me. Hunting for themselves has never made those dogs a working dog no matter how good they were at hunting. Just a bit of reality.


I really think you are completely underestimating the judges who judge "working dogs". These judges go through extensive examinations and have to prove themselves worthy of judging not only the dog's character but the dog's performance on the day.

That the various Sport competitions do not equal that of a **working* dog's" routine, i.e. rounding sheep, hunting, etc. is, I hope, clear to everyone on this forum. Either the dog can do the work or he is usually put down. 

The mere expression "working dog" serves to distinguish it from the "show dog". No reason to belittle the term "working dog" in either sense, as I see it.


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## Christopher Smith

> I could care less if she does doggie musical freestyle with her dogs, as whatever people enjoy doing is their business. But this is not the best forum to ask about the kind of dog she is interested in since probably at least 3/4 of the regulars on here do some sort of bitework based activity, not agility or AKC obedience.


Most of the regulars on this board don't do anything other than fantasize about what they wish their dog could do while sipping unicorn milk. At least Vicky does SOMETHING. 



Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk


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## Larry Krohn

Christopher Smith said:


> Most of the regulars on this board don't do anything other than fantasize about what they wish their dog could do while sipping unicorn milk. At least Vicky does SOMETHING.
> 
> Unicorn milk is delicious though
> 
> Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Joby Becker said:


> ???
> 
> So because someone posted a video of biting, and the discussion was about biting, you assume that is all "they" think about is biting?
> 
> I think about a lot of things besides biting, but that is what I enjoy most about owning "working type" dogs. That is where my interest is the greatest.
> 
> To say that "protection dogs" came from herding dogs is not how it really is.... The protection dogs that came from herding dogs, came from herding dogs, the others did not. There are many many breeds being used for protection work, that do not come from herders.
> 
> Before getting into herding "breeds", I was into mostly "performance bred" mollosers. Starting with the Rottweiler and then into the Presa Canario.
> 
> same drives and issues? different decoys??? I would not go so far as to say that, sure in some ways, concerning some breeds, and some individual dogs.
> 
> I think the big difference comes into play in the biting, when it comes to how a dog responds in biting and fighting a person. To assume that a dog that can do great herding, or hunting, or taking down animals, has everything it needs to be a great protection dog prospect is pretty silly in my book. Does great herding skills, detract from a protection dog? NO of course not, but there is a major difference in working animals and working people, and if you are getting a dog with an interest in doing bitework, how he performs in the bitework, is far more valuable than how he works animals.
> 
> I do not see many people picking (biting) sport dogs, protection dogs, or police dogs, based on their ability to herd, do you?
> 
> Could it hurt to pick dogs that are great herders? no of course not, but herding ability is not a main requirement for the job for some people.
> 
> The functions have shifted greatly in many breeds, and the order of importance on selecting for certain traits, has also shifted if looking for dogs that will perform in the functions one is looking to get dogs for.
> 
> To say that because a dog can bite a duck, that is the same as biting a person, and stay in the fight when the person is fighting them, is ridiculous in my mind. If I was looking for a protection dog, that would be my main focus, not how he can herd, or how he bites ducks, if the breeder also herded with the dogs, I wouldnt mind, would check it out, if he was willing to show me, but it would not make a big difference to me.
> 
> If I took a pup that I bought for "protection" work, and it did not herd well, I wouldn't be heart broken, if he did, then hey great...
> 
> I would think on the flip side, that most people looking for herding dogs, do not select their dogs for the ability to do protection work.
> 
> I would say the biting dogs, are what many people are interested in here, but not all. obviously there are herding people, and hunting people, and detection people, and search dog people, tracking/trailing and others...
> 
> as far as the AKC goes, I do not like what it does to the working breeds that decide to become a part of it, on a whole. By shifting the focus of the majority of breeders to breed for show, and not even be concerned with functionality, other than the dog will show well, and will make more ideal pets for the popularity explosion that occurs. Often when breeds enter into a registry, and the books are finally closed, that closes off huge pools of dogs that are actually able to do functional work, because they are not in the books, and in other cases, the changes made to the standards along the way, actually make breeds less functional.
> 
> That being said I have worked with many AKC registered dogs that were very good dogs as well. Point is this, to assume a dog will be good at something, without testing for and training for it, is plain dumb, even if it is based on the dogs performance in another area...some abilities do compliment eachother for sure...but to say a herding dog is the same as a protection dog, but just with a different decoy, I cant agree with that. That to me is saying the same as a hunting dog is the same as a protection dog, just a different decoy.


 
As for the bite, bite bite, that's because you never mention any other aspect of your dogs or puppies and don't seem to mention developing other aspects. I have this "total" dog interest. My point along with Sara is the assumption that dogs in other venues have less than what it takes for protection work. Unless you really see the dogs in those working stock situations, I don't think you can relate. It might not correlate for mollosers but for the protection herding dogs, it does or at least in my opinion. GSDs are what I refer to mostly and I almost never think of molossers. . Some of the herding breeds don't have any history of man work. I probably would agree with you on the whole closed registry thing. I think we need to get away from competitions that are based on registry pedigrees. I don't assume anything. I test for everything that I want to see in a dog. I don't breed immature dogs because I want to see the entire mature mental package before they physically reproduce. I want to see how they handle fight stock, trainability, etc. I think if you are into protection, you must see the dog through his paces to test that environmentally and with pressure. But I also don't believe instinctive guard/protection should be bred out for over the top prey for trainability/points. I think working dog people should opt out of the registry system if they think it is hurting their breeds. Take a look at the USBCHA and its policy against dual registering BCs with AKC. I don't think any registry and the emphasis on money and compeititon has necessarily "helped" a breed, but its breeders that ultimately hurt a breed. They're the ones making the breeding decisions and placing the puppies. To get breeding rights on her bitches she has a long list of requirements that include working sport titles and health testing. The registry has nothing to do with that. As much as I want to depend on certain "breed" traits, I think the whole breed purity and money aspects has gone too far and does't benefit dogs in the long run. 

I said the same drives are utilized in herding, just different decoys. You missed that--again. You want to minimize herding to just relationship to animals. It goes beyond that. Hunting is different. But again, unless you do both, you can't relate to what I mean and that's fine. I don't know what most people you are referring to but part of the reason I've been kept safe with my herding dogs is their instinctive guard. I'm very worried from a herding aspect about that aspect being bred out because there is a preference for command-able prey fight. I have traveled alone a lot for dog sport events and on more than one occasion that herding dog rose to the protection occasion. That's the beauty of a GSD, bouvier or good ACD for that matter. You get it all. 

The dog that I mentioned was a Pembroke Welsh Corgi. I didn't say that what he did with a duck would transfer to man. What I said was that I couldn't see it in the suit videos as identifying it. How a dog bites ducks as a selection criteria? How absurd. Of course you miss the point of that I mention it as having seen something here as a trait in one of my dogs and in a context where I can identify it. I bet you would look at how he bites a toy or suit material? But does even that mean he will bite without equipment of some sort? Do you really care in biting a man whether a dog pushes into the bite or just bites? I thought it was something interesting that a dog would do in the animal context. The duck wasn't passive. Here's instinct at play. Whether it would happen on a suit? Don't know. Like a protection dog, is the instinct there for development. Probably, if I cared. There have been Sch trained corgis and one was from from my puppy's line [Schulhaus Billy The Kid] but for the most part the serious aspect of corgis has been bred out which is why I wanted Rhemy---to preserve that. At about 13 weeks an ACD friend had him and started to wrestle with him and he took it to a level I thought surprising. I hesitate to call it fight/aggression in a baby puppy but we were both taken aback. I had her stop and I petted him and had her do the same and he calmed quickly and went back to puppy play etc. We've had a couple of discussions on dominance protests and who buys the dog food. He's so far great with other dogs, people, kid/toddler social and environmentally sound. We'll see how he develops but I know he's no fluff and his breeder considered him too much dog for anyone else, including herself. As someone told me when I started with them, there are corgis and then there are "real" corgis. 

As for people picking their bite sport dogs from herding stock, some are going in that direction with importing dogs out of herding stock. Again, that is a GSD thing and maybe because of the historical correlation between those two traits in that breed. Is it common? No. How many people understand the correlation and value the traits, know of the correlation or believe in it? And its not just any dog that herds---those abilities come in varying degrees. You have to have a handle on that dog's ability to handle pressure, stand his ground in a confrontation, hardness, etc. There are tons of light weight herding dogs that I eliminate from this. In closing regarding the dogs that don't transfer animal work to man work, in breeds that come to mind, those breeders selected against dogs that would exhibit those traits toward man. Those breeds are mostly fighting breeds and hunting breeds. 

As for biting dogs, I think you are right as far as interest, mine includedin terms of dog with instinctive protection but I see interest in other areas as well.

T


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## Maren Bell Jones

Sara Waters said:


> Maren, because I am not familar with the Mal and rarely see them where I live, I will defer to your greater knowledge of them unless anyone has anything more to say.
> 
> However I will say this. Border collies are working dogs, they are among the most widely used working dogs in the world and work some of the toughest herding gigs on this planet, as do cattle dogs and kelpies and koolies. Outback Australia, mountain country, scrub country and feral livestock in some cases.
> 
> Not every working dog is about protection.
> 
> Maybe I too am in the wrong forum as obviously my working collies and kelpies, cattledogs are not really working dogs as they are also suitable for agility and obedience and therefore must lack fortitude to work.
> 
> You see on my avatar I have chosen agility as herding wasnt an option. My dogs are formost my working dogs and without them I would not be able to manage my sheep. They also do agility. My BC in particular has the fortitude to handle aggressive ewes at lambing, without damaging them but dealing with some very aggressive butting and charging and he also is lots of fun to run in agility and has all the qualities for a top agility dog if his handler was more experienced.
> 
> Working dogs and agility is not mutually exclusive if you acknowledge that there is more than one type of working dog in this world.
> 
> Some of the old stockmen I know are probably some of the best dog handlers in the world with their stock dogs and their dogs some of the best working dogs, tough, uncompromising and will work hard in extreme conditions and remain stable and calm enough to perform some very brainy stockwork, while avoiding getting their brains bashed out.


Remember when I expanded on my classification of working dogs? In case not:



Maren Bell Jones said:


> I break it down into 4 categories: show/conformation, performance (obedience, agility, dock diving, disc, weight pull), working sport (protection sport, sport herding, field trials, dog sled racing), and *working* (police K9s, MWDs, SAR dogs, *working ranch/farm dogs*).


So obviously I don't think dogs that do bite work are the only working dogs, but fighting aggressive sheep and cattle are not the same as dogs specifically bred to do protection against people. Just like "hunting" bear or hogs doesn't guarantee you protection either. ;-) A border collie that would charge a rank bull would just about always run or avoid a man with a stick running and yelling at the dog. I'm not taking anything away from what they do, but they are not genetically bred for it. Goes back to the old saying that if you're not breeding for it, you're breeding against it. And yes, I have met someone who trained their BCs in Schutzhund (though Schutzhund is like the taekwondo of canine martial arts). 

I do both herding and PSA and it would be quite rare to have a Mal that can both _really_ well. The ones at the national Malinois specialty herding trial this weekend looked for the most part like show line dogs: lighter fawn, perfect triangle ears more on the top of their heads, finer boned, pointier heads, more square builds. But believe me, I've been trying for the last two years and not very successfully, even with a dog from Kadi's breeding stock that can do some of both. But perhaps doing ducks is the key, since they are similar enough to my chickens. Actually owning and handling these dogs is really the best way to appreciate their intensity and how they differ from other breeds, even in the same herding group. And I say that having owned two purebred Mals and two Mal crosses, none of which are what I'd call "extreme" for the breed.


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## Bob Scott

T said;
" Bob would have to correct me if I'm wrong but I would swear I've heard him say that an AKC TDX track is more difficult than a Sch III track".

Absolutely correct! The Sch III is more similar to the AKC TD. The TDX would be more similar to the FH.
Thanks for the compliments on Thunder! Since he's not a full out, go for broke man killer I doubt some folks would see what you and others do. "Absolutely balanced and socially reliable" works just fine:lol::wink:


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## Maren Bell Jones

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Maren, you're funny. Now you're a victim? Problem with you??? Nahhhhh, not really. You just happen to post some pretty slamming opinions on some topics that are sort of near and dear to me. If I had a "problem" with you, I wouldn't have been out there in the blazing heat helping your helper with Fawkes' out.


Helping my decoy? Oh yes, I remember now. You came out there once two years ago with your BFF (who is no longer welcome at our club because of the drama she started). The extent of your "help" of our old decoy (a formerly certified PSA decoy with something like a decade of experience) was you trying to get my dog to out off a decoy using a plastic water bottle while me and our decoy were exchanging looks. :lol: Going to a seminar or a trial once or twice a year while never having trained in it doesn't mean you know anything about the sport, but apparently that's more than enough experience for you to have opinions and give advice to guys with many more miles than you.



> As for local events, I've never noticed you making any attempts for interaction or conversation. I'm pretty good at respecting other folks' space and its been obvious that it "suits you just fine." Mostly if I respond on a topic, its not personal to you or anyone else. Its a response for the masses or as Joby says, thinking out loud. Like everyone else I have a few pet topics and if I respond, its just my thoughts or something that I think the masses ought to consider as an alternative or in support. Unless its about herding, GSDs, some health topics, I usually read and not respond. Of course a good game of verbal volleyball with Joby and Peter can be kinda fun depending on what mood I'm in.
> 
> As for the "ignore" function, I don't need that favor but I'm sure any of the mods can help you out. I'm not that affected by you or anyone else on this forum that I would figure out the ignore function. If you post something here, chances are someone could disagree with it and say so and even ask you why are you here. People who don't want to deal with other's responses to what they say, usually lurk and don't say anything. I read stuff that catches my interest and ignore the rest already. Some things trigger or merit comment and some things don't. Some threads/posts are just good for revisiting my thoughts on certain things.
> 
> T


All you have ever done for years is argue with me, usually for the sake of arguing. So I'm simply no longer interested in wasting time with cyclical, too long, didn't read arguments with you of any kind. If anyone, moderator or otherwise, can tell me how to use the ignore function, please let me know. Thanks.


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## Kadi Thingvall

Ignore Function
Click on the person's name on the left in a thread, and select View Public Profile
In the middle of the page on the left click on User's List
Click on Add to Ignore List

And you are done


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## Maren Bell Jones

Thanks, Kadi. 8)

Edit: and Nicole


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Helping my decoy? Oh yes, I remember now. You came out there once two years ago with your BFF (who is no longer welcome at our club because of the drama she started). The extent of your "help" of our old decoy (a formerly certified PSA decoy with something like a decade of experience) was you trying to get my dog to out off a decoy using a plastic water bottle while me and our decoy were exchanging looks. :lol: Going to a seminar or a trial once or twice a year while never having trained in it doesn't mean you know anything about the sport, but apparently that's more than enough experience for you to have opinions and give advice to guys with many more miles than you.
> 
> 
> 
> All you have ever done for years is argue with me, usually for the sake of arguing. So I'm simply no longer interested in wasting time with cyclical, too long, didn't read arguments with you of any kind. If anyone, moderator or otherwise, can tell me how to use the ignore function, please let me know. Thanks.


 
I don't know what a BFF is but if you mean Lynda, yep I did. Lynda started the initial club. When the treasurer alerted her to issues with your decoy and money and she had issues with his decoying and repeatedly said you all needed to limit his access to club funds, you all elected to stay with the decoy. Later it seems you started another club and for awhile with the same decoy until the treasurer got his PDC. But I'll let Lynda respond to that. It was interesting that eventually you posted here regarding the decoy that ran off with the club money. Thereafter you started a new club that as far as I know, Lynda was never a part of or tried to be. Now regarding your out work. The issue was how to use marker training to get the dog to out. With you cranking on the dog and worried about rebites and the decoy staring at him, he wouldn't out. My comment to your helper was to look away and take the pressure off of him. When he did so, the dog outed. My next comment was as far as the marker training went that if he was going to reward him with a rebite to not offer it until you marked the out so that you were in control of it. We then discussed what the dog saw as reward. He thought the suit jacket was a reward to the dog. Later he agreed as I interjected that his tug was more of a reward. I also think it works really well for the handler to be in ultimate control that the reward is through the handler. The lady training one of Jeff O's puppies in mondio--Elizabeth? had some awesome videos of this more recently. I thought he was in conflict with the upper body suit work and thought you should go back to the tug work to build him along with the out work. He seemed to have gone too fast too far. Your helper was a super nice guy and great to talk to and toss ideas around with and respected what I had to say if you didn't. Its been interesting to follow the discussions that came later that there was issues with the bicep work and that through his line, they are leg dogs. Thereafter, you switched to legs. Somewhere in all that it seems you tried a bunch of defense stuff and that had a negative effect and the latest stuff has been taking him back to basics and working him in a flirt/tug situation. So you've finally come around to it even if its a couple of years later. One of the things you don't understand is #1 herding is all about understanding a dog's flight/fight zone, pressure and release, etc. #2, I bet I've done more bite work training than you have and you certainly don't take your own advice regarding experience before advise giving regarding herding and other things. I don't just go to seminars and a few trials a year. Besides, I started training with a schutzhund club as far back as 1986.

Now, just to help your memory, the "water bottle" dog is Lynda's Rook. That had nothing to do with Fawkes. That is the toy he loves the most. Lynda approached her out early on in not the best way and was having some slow outs. Rook is high prey and extremely high object. I believe the reward should come through the handler and just to show what would happen, had Lynda click the out and then reward with his favorite toy---wallah. Rook is the kinda of dog that can lay amongst ten decoys calm as a cucumber. If Lynda sends him, he's ready to rock and roll. He LOVES plastic water bottles. If you understand marker training, you use what the dog sees as the ultimate reward. When I asked you what your dog saw as his ultimate reward, you said his tug. I asked you if you had it and you said you tried to keep it hidden during training and it was in the car. At the time you had issues with him re-gripping and biting you and you were reluctant to go with the idea of rewarding with a tug. For Rook the ultimate reward is that plastic water bottle although he sees a prey toy in just about any object. But if you didn't understand all this and the plastic water bottle didn't seem working dog tough enough for you, I understand that.

T


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## Sara Waters

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Remember when I expanded on my classification of working dogs? In case not:
> So obviously I don't think dogs that do bite work are the only working dogs, but fighting aggressive sheep and cattle are not the same as dogs specifically bred to do protection against people. Just like "hunting" bear or hogs doesn't guarantee you protection either. ;-) A border collie that would charge a rank bull would just about always run or avoid a man with a stick running and yelling at the dog. I'm not taking anything away from what they do, but they are not genetically bred for it. Goes back to the old saying that if you're not breeding for it, you're breeding against it. And yes, I have met someone who trained their BCs in Schutzhund (though Schutzhund is like the taekwondo of canine martial arts).
> 
> .


I think we are probably slightly at cross purposes - the joys of interpretation on the internet. No way is a BC bred as a protection dog against humans, that didnt cross my mind for one minute. I rely on my ACDS for that LOL. My BCs would be hopeless.

My only objection to this whole conversation (not with you, just in general) is the assumption that seems to be coming though that agility is some sort of soft sport that doesnt lend itelf to working line dogs. Or that Border collies are some sort of soft type of working dogs.

First of all agility takes a lot of training and skill to be at the top levels and many handlers train and handle working bred dogs of all types in this sport and some do it with dogs they work for real - like me. 

To be honest it is a bit debateable as to whether the average person would rather face up to a 2000lb of angry scrub bull intent on trampling and goring them to death or a man with a stick. There have been dogs that have saved their master from such a fate an paid the ultimate price itself. This is not uncommon, you need a good dog to have your back with this type of stock and the original cattle dogs were purpose bred for this, which is why they are such tough little customers and they are purpose breeding some lines of Border collies and kelpies to handle station stock. I would also expect these dogs if one had a mind to likely excel in dog sports.

I think one gets the impression that people who do bite sports think they are are somehow in a different league to people in other discilplines because their dogs are somwhow high powered etc. I apologise if I am wrong on this perception.

I would love to see how some of you might manage training and working dogs on scrub cattle.

I think if the forum doesnt consider agility or AKC obedience or anything else that is considered suspect as an appropriate topic it should probably say so up front so people like Vicki dont get the wrong idea. I very rarely discuss agility here myself as there are other groups that do that if required. 

If it is just AKC breeding that is objected to then be clear - like the BC boards, they say up front that they dont condone the breeding of Border collies as anything else than as working sheep dogs and openly voice their objections to the AKC, then everyone is clear on the rules LOL..


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## Maren Bell Jones

I have trained in all three (protection sport, herding, and agility), so I do have a first hand appreciation for the difficulty levels and the type of dogs typically used. I don't trial in agility since between doing my three main sports, I just don't have time, but I do believe it is an excellent foundation for many things. But I still agree with the article by Francis M. I know it must sound elitist, but try getting with some folks who do have these kinds of Malinois, Dutchies, and some GSDs and watch them work to see what I mean.

By the way, I tell people ALL THE TIME that I personally find herding a much, MUCH harder thing to train than protection sport, especially for the handler. But the dogs themselves tend to be much harder in temperament for protection sport than in herding. With the average working line Mal, I would be more concerned that they'd get themselves killed with their sense "you will do what I say!" control and prey drive on a rank bull, which is why I have not let my male Mal work cattle off line. Perhaps in the future, but I know he cannot handle it right now. Being a vet, I have also been there trying to drive a bull down an alleyway to get him into a stall and he turns and give you "the look." Also been there when trying to drive a cow (usually with a calf needing to be pulled) in the middle of the pasture to an enclosure and she likewise turns and gives you "the look." Kind of looks like:  then :x, so I am very familiar with this and know how scary it can be! :lol: But herding or hunting animals, even dangerous and fractious ones, is not in the same sphere for a dog's mind as facing off against a human. Probably goes back to the fact a wolf would go after a prey animal like an elk or moose that weighs easily 10 times more than it does, but it is extremely rare that they would attack a human. 

Remember, I'm *not* taking away from the long hours and skill it takes to get proficient at herding and agility. I know first hand it does and I'm still not very good at herding, despite doing it for two years! That's something that would take a good decade to really understand and be good at. Yes, of course there are exceptions...however, it's my first hand experience that the dogs that do bitework are as a whole are tougher. Try getting around some of these dogs sometime doing the work they do and you will likely see what I mean. Not sure how far Christopher J. is from you, but he sounds like he's got some nice dogs.


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## Joby Becker

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I said the same drives are utilized in herding, just different decoys. You missed that--again. You want to minimize herding to just relationship to animals. It goes beyond that. Hunting is different. But again, unless you do both, you can't relate to what I mean and that's fine. I don't know what most people you are referring to but part of the reason I've been kept safe with my herding dogs is their instinctive guard. I'm very worried from a herding aspect about that aspect being bred out because there is a preference for command-able prey fight. I have traveled alone a lot for dog sport events and on more than one occasion that herding dog rose to the protection occasion. *That's the beauty of a GSD, bouvier or good ACD for that matter. You get it all. *


And sometimes you dont...of course...even if the breeders told you the dogs had protective instinct.. same as someone having a dog that has herding "instinct" but you know he will not make a good functional herding dog at all after evaluating him more. There are 1000's of GSD's that do herding and "bitework" that would most likely not make effective protection dogs, if defined as engaging a person by biting them, and actively fighting them, without equipment...ask any SCH decoy what he really thinks about many of the dogs that show up for training, if he is honest, he will hurt peoples feelings, truth is most people dont care about Protection and that is fine with me.



Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I bet you would look at how he bites a toy or suit material? But does even that mean he will bite without equipment of some sort? Do you really care in biting a man whether a dog pushes into the bite or just bites?


no I dont care, of the dogs that I have owned or trained that have actually engaged (bitten) people to protect in real life, some had less than what most like to see in biting in sustained long term training, in sport style. 

I enjoy doing bitework as a hobby, so I like my current dogs to bite in a manner that will not be frowned upon by people that will judge the bite quality, I like for the biting behavior to be impressive, and am hoping that the decoys that work her, like her, and remember her, even though if the dog was to engage someone for real, I wouldnt care too much "what it looke like", I would care about the dog actually engaging violently, and staying in the fight if the person actively fought back. 

I like to see good biting behaviors in dogs, because it is part of the equation, cant go wrong just because a dog bites impressively, but a great bite does not equal a great dog for protection, persay..

just like I would not scoff at a dog that is great at herding, and great at biting in training, but still would not mean he would be great for protection outside of sport or hobby bitework. I would look at the dogs intent, aggression, and his muzzle work before I made any judgements. every dog I have ever bred has been worked in muzzle and on hidden equipment, which are also no guarantees, but aside from biting for real, are as close as you can get in training in my opinion.



> As for biting dogs, I think you are right as far as interest, mine included in terms of dog with instinctive protection but I see interest in other areas as well.
> T


again instinctive protective traits does not always equal ability to actually protect, and does not always equal the ability to be trained for that function, jsut like herding instinct test does not mean a dog has what it takes to do functional herding....

you like to herd I get it, it is a great function to test, train and breed for...nothing against it at all from me...I doubt my dog can herd well, but if it did pass an instinct test, I would not assume she would make a good breeding dog for herding, and would not tell people that the pups produced would most likely make good herding dogs, considering the lines she comes from are not herding dogs...

I still might test her out for it, it is interesting to me..I have nothing against herding dogs...


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## Sara Waters

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Remember, I'm *not* taking away from the long hours and skill it takes to get proficient at herding and agility. I know first hand it does and I'm still not very good at herding, despite doing it for two years! That's something that would take a good decade to really understand and be good at. Yes, of course there are exceptions...however, it's my first hand experience that the dogs that do bitework are as a whole are tougher. Try getting around some of these dogs sometime doing the work they do and you will likely see what I mean. Not sure how far Christopher J. is from you, but he sounds like he's got some nice dogs.


Maren I was bought up in a country with major civil unrest and have certainly seen the power of GSDS (back then) police dogs. I have always thought them to be awesome dogs although I often dont recognise them in the showbred animals I see today.

I have also worked on cattle station of a million odd acres back in the days when they bred real station cattle dogs LOL. I can asure you those dogs were tough and they were quite prepared to do what they had to do and they were also smart and had the instincts to be clever about how they dealt with scrub cattle. Yes they would risk death to protect their masters, I have seen a horse and rider go down and his dog fight desperately to turn the running cattle that were headed his way. Those stockmen had a special bond with their dogs, they bred them and they worked them and they were true dog men. It is probably and era diisapearing into the mists of time. Those dogs were tough beyond belief. You struggle to find anything like them these days, no real need so much with mechanisation of the muster etc.


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## Chris McDonald

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I have trained in all three (protection sport, herding, and agility)
> Have you really? I mean have you really trained in all three? Or have you just barley dabbled? Please tell me your definition or training?
> 
> it's my first hand experience that the dogs that do bitework are as a whole are tougher. Try getting around some of these dogs sometime doing the work they do and you will likely see what I mean.
> Is that really your experience? If she ever did get around these dogs “that do bite work” what would she see? What do you mean? Can you explain to me what she might see? How are they tougher?


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## Peter Cavallaro

Tougher is subjective, most guys could beat most girls in a fist fight, I still consider wimmins somehow stronger at some fundamental level I cant explain...........they squeeze out babies for chrisssakes, I cant even look at pictures of that shit!!!!! 

I dont buy bite sports as any sign of toughness whatsoever.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Chris McDonald said:


> Have you really? I mean have you really trained in all three? Or have you just barley dabbled? Please tell me your definition or training?


Wow, really pulling at straws for something to argue over. Yep, trained in all three. Dabbling is like going to a weekend event for beginners and giving it a try a time or two. I've dabbled in anything from carting to lure coursing. Training is devoting significant amounts of time to the sport, of which I've done all three (also to Schutzhund, therapy work, and dock diving):

PSA (since 2010):










Herding (since 2010):










Agility I last trained formally (other than for things like PSA, where you have to teach tunnels and jumps and foundational stuff for proprioception and teaching good jumping technique, which I try to teach all my dogs) in 2007 or so. Can't seem to find my photos of me and my old dog doing agility on my hard drive. :-? Do you need my old canceled checks from 5 years ago for the multiple agility classes and the building membership I bought to train at the local agility facility at all hours if I wanted? I actually have the keycard for the building membership still in my wallet. Want a photo of that? :roll: 



> Is that really your experience? If she ever did get around these dogs “that do bite work” what would she see? What do you mean? Can you explain to me what she might see? How are they tougher?


See dogs like Aaron R's Norskey and Mic F's Yaro in action in person and you wouldn't even have to ask.

On a completely different note...thank you, George Takei.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Tougher is subjective, most guys could beat most girls in a fist fight, I still consider wimmins somehow stronger at some fundamental level I cant explain...........they squeeze out babies for chrisssakes, I cant even look at pictures of that shit!!!!!
> 
> I dont buy bite sports as any sign of toughness whatsoever.


Interesting point, but you need to get out more and more dogs beyond just those doing Schutzhund. Not that there aren't ever tough dogs doing Schutzhund. Bob's dog's father was a very tough and serious dog who used to train at my first Schutzhund club.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Joby Becker said:


> And sometimes you dont...of course...even if the breeders told you the dogs had protective instinct.. same as someone having a dog that has herding "instinct" but you know he will not make a good functional herding dog at all after evaluating him more. There are 1000's of GSD's that do herding and "bitework" that would most likely not make effective protection dogs, if defined as engaging a person by biting them, and actively fighting them, without equipment...ask any SCH decoy what he really thinks about many of the dogs that show up for training, if he is honest, he will hurt peoples feelings, truth is most people dont care about Protection and that is fine with me.
> 
> 
> 
> no I dont care, of the dogs that I have owned or trained that have actually engaged (bitten) people to protect in real life, some had less than what most like to see in biting in sustained long term training, in sport style.
> 
> I enjoy doing bitework as a hobby, so I like my current dogs to bite in a manner that will not be frowned upon by people that will judge the bite quality, I like for the biting behavior to be impressive, and am hoping that the decoys that work her, like her, and remember her, even though if the dog was to engage someone for real, I wouldnt care too much "what it looke like", I would care about the dog actually engaging violently, and staying in the fight if the person actively fought back.
> 
> I like to see good biting behaviors in dogs, because it is part of the equation, cant go wrong just because a dog bites impressively, but a great bite does not equal a great dog for protection, persay..
> 
> just like I would not scoff at a dog that is great at herding, and great at biting in training, but still would not mean he would be great for protection outside of sport or hobby bitework. I would look at the dogs intent, aggression, and his muzzle work before I made any judgements. every dog I have ever bred has been worked in muzzle and on hidden equipment, which are also no guarantees, but aside from biting for real, are as close as you can get in training in my opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> again instinctive protective traits does not always equal ability to actually protect, and does not always equal the ability to be trained for that function, jsut like herding instinct test does not mean a dog has what it takes to do functional herding....
> 
> you like to herd I get it, it is a great function to test, train and breed for...nothing against it at all from me...I doubt my dog can herd well, but if it did pass an instinct test, I would not assume she would make a good breeding dog for herding, and would not tell people that the pups produced would most likely make good herding dogs, considering the lines she comes from are not herding dogs...
> 
> I still might test her out for it, it is interesting to me..I have nothing against herding dogs...


I'm not sure what the hell has happened in GSDs in the last 10-20 years but in the past mine had the instinct and when it hit the fan, they did rise to the occasion and against weapons and a couple of guys that thought they could beat a dog down. As long as I selected for confidence, a GSD had those instincts--same with stock. In terms of herding, I don't go off whether the parents have instinct. I test the puppies. I have three quandrants and they must excel in all three--people, environment and stock. If it does, I take it home. If it doesn't, I leave it. A dog that has herding instinct but can't do functional herding is probably overall nervy in the confidence department. Then there are the over loaded prey dogs. Herding instinct just doesn't mean engagement. For me, I want instinctive group, containment, strong heading and balance. Rate is a nice to have but I can train that. As far as breeding goes for my own, I don't make that decision until they are older. I want to know how they handle cattle [including cow/calfs], ewes with lambs and rams. The ability to handle stock that actively seeks to bash the dogs brains in or his handler's has to be tested. That's not assumed. There are tons of herder stories of dogs that turn tail and run and their handler gets mauled. This isn't round pen work, long line work or trial work. We all know of dogs that spend years on a long line or in a round pen. You haven't begun to know anything about that dog's ability in a herding context. Can he gather in a pasture. Can he sort. Can he hold during medications. Can he load chutes and trailers. Can you walk off and leave him in the pen with the stock while you do something else? It comes down to intelligence, fight drive and a dog that is in it to get the job done no matter what---HEART. Then there is the dog that is always there to back me up and keep me from taking a hit. That's the dog that will instinctively circle front and stand his ground to keep me from harm. 

I was raised that the GSD was the ultimate protection/guard family dog. You didn't train it to protect. You trained it to call off. Ultimately they knew when. Mine have always read a situation or read me. GSDs were bred/selected for man and stock work. Other breeds may not have that duality. I agree that sport biting doesn't mean that a dog will actually protect. We all hear of the great sport dogs that if the burglar entered without a sleeve, they would take them the kong. This is where breeding has gone awry. What happened to instinctual territoriality and guard? For me these are gotta have traits. What dogs do in artificial set up situations are different from what they do in instinctual situations. At this point in my life, I should never be in a situation where I need a dog to fight a man. I'm comfortable with an instinctual dog as a deterrent and what I need with fight stock. I don't feel like I ought to have to train a bouv or a GSD to guard and protect regardless of whether its man or beast. That ought to be there instinctively. Right now there are only a few of breeders on this forum that I think understand this aspect of character and would know which of their dogs reliably produce it. I like to herd yes, but I expect my dogs with historical protection background to protect if the situation arises. Right dog, right helper and something like mondio, ring or PSA and I'd probably train one. I know longer travel all week and next year my kid graduates from high school and he's off to college. Maybe by then the right GSD will happen along. I want a Thunder--the protection dog and the herder.

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Chris McDonald said:


> Maren Bell Jones said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have trained in all three (protection sport, herding, and agility)
> Have you really? I mean have you really trained in all three? Or have you just barley dabbled? Please tell me your definition or training?
> 
> it's my first hand experience that the dogs that do bitework are as a whole are tougher. Try getting around some of these dogs sometime doing the work they do and you will likely see what I mean.
> Is that really your experience? If she ever did get around these dogs “that do bite work” what would she see? What do you mean? Can you explain to me what she might see? How are they tougher?
> 
> 
> 
> You can train in anything--but to what level of performance? I've trained in tracking which means I've done scent boxes and layed tracks of 20-30 feet until I got bored with it and my dog kept fighting the ants in his nose. Didn't get him to a level of an AKC TD track or a Sch track, but I trained in it. Having been around bite work dogs, I don't get how you *assume* tougher either. If you have been around weaker herding dogs in your experience and haven't worked dogs that do bite work in herding, maybe that's why someone would assume they are tougher.
> 
> 
> T
Click to expand...


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## Lynda Myers

Maren Bell Jones said:


> So umm...considering the name of this forum...why are you asking on here again?


 


Hahahahaha I honestly found this statement to be quite funny considering the OP spelled out her reason for posting. With these two questions below:
Does anyone have a method they use to choose a puppy or do you use the " let the puppy pick you method" or is it all just a crap shoot?
Girls over boys or visa versa and why.
Guess your reading comprehension isn't up to snuff, huh?:-\"



Maren Bell Jones said:


> Helping my decoy? Oh yes, I remember now. You came out there once two years ago with your BFF (who is no longer welcome at our club because of the drama she started)..


Oh look another funny! =D> Wow, it's amazing what effect being Veterinarian and the title Club President will have on some people. Did you really think this comment was going to go unchallenged? Just exactly what drama do I cause Miss Maren? 

I 've never been out to your club and have no desire to ever visit either. Besides you've been training in bitework for roughly about 3-5 years and have nothing to show for it. Not trying to be mean just keep it real.


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## Maren Bell Jones

C'mon now, Lynda. A grown woman screaming and yelling and trying to act like a thug in a public park because you don't like how he was working your dog instead of discussing it like an adult? God knows I don't defend him AT ALL for just about any reason, but at least he was mature enough for once in his life to walk away. He's not welcome to train with our club either. Good riddance to all of it. 

Club president is nothing fancy. I just schedule the training sessions, doesn't make me special. Speaking of which, we have one tomorrow with our decoy who actually does know what he's doing, which had not been the case for well over a year. Hard to title your dog with no decoy. I think this will be a more productive trialing season.


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## Sara Waters

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Tougher is subjective, most guys could beat most girls in a fist fight, I still consider wimmins somehow stronger at some fundamental level I cant explain...........they squeeze out babies for chrisssakes, I cant even look at pictures of that shit!!!!!
> 
> I dont buy bite sports as any sign of toughness whatsoever.


Oh you are hilarious at times Peter - my chuckle for the day. 

And I also agree with you on this one. Seen too many tough as nails dog out on the land LOL. Hunting, working scrub cattle, working in grueling conditions etc.


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## Chris McDonald

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Wow, really pulling at straws for something to argue over. Yep, trained in all three. Dabbling is like going to a weekend event for beginners and giving it a try a time or two. I've dabbled in anything from carting to lure coursing. Training is devoting significant amounts of time to the sport, of which I've done all three (also to Schutzhund, therapy work, and dock diving):
> 
> PSA (since 2010):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Herding (since 2010):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Agility I last trained formally (other than for things like PSA, where you have to teach tunnels and jumps and foundational stuff for proprioception and teaching good jumping technique, which I try to teach all my dogs) in 2007 or so. Can't seem to find my photos of me and my old dog doing agility on my hard drive. :-? Do you need my old canceled checks from 5 years ago for the multiple agility classes and the building membership I bought to train at the local agility facility at all hours if I wanted? I actually have the keycard for the building membership still in my wallet. Want a photo of that? :roll:
> 
> 
> 
> See dogs like Aaron R's Norskey and Mic F's Yaro in action in person and you wouldn't even have to ask.
> 
> On a completely different note...thank you, George Takei.


So I was right, you barley dabbled, you just don’t get it. When you understand having a key or a member card means nothing you might start to get it. Keep digging


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## Maren Bell Jones

You are the epitome of backyard champion keyboard commando. I thought you were going to cancel your account or looking to get banned.


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## Peter Cavallaro

Hey dont be bad mouthing the back yarders.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Nothing wrong with people who train in the backyard. I had a most productive training session in a front yard today. But if you want to test that training, step out of your backyard onto the trial field. Even if you fail, you learn something you would not have otherwise.


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## Peter Cavallaro

One train of thought the best working dogs of the future might well be coming from the back yard enthusiast breeder as will a lot of clubs wanting to do there sport affordably and without having to employ a legal team to get through the BS.....just sayin.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Wait...what? It may be different in Oz, but calling someone a backyard breeder is an insult in the States, as in no health tests, no temperament testing, no titles, no working, just "oh, let's let these two ill bred, nothing special dogs mate because they would make 'nice' puppies for pets." Shelters are full of these dogs.

Not sure what you mean about the cost of the sport either? Our annual club dues (for a small club of about 5 people) is about $350 USD per year. Covers equipment, insurance, and annual club affiliation dues with PSA (which we still need to pay this year [-X). When our decoy comes down to train, we pay his gas money since it's a 3 hour drive for him. If we want to put on a seminar or trial, that's also extra money, but club members get to attend seminars usually free or at cost. An hour private herding lesson is about $30 per session and a 6 week agility class is about $100. So considering that, it's a pretty darn good deal. Not sure what you mean by legal BS.


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## Joby Becker

I still think the best Rottie out there is maybe just someones lovable pet dog..you never know..


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## Peter Cavallaro

I thought I had issues with my club. Is this the same club Justin A consulted with when deciding whether to off his dog or not?


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## Peter Cavallaro

All good, lifes a journey or sumthin.


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## Sara Waters

I think Vicki should have stuck to the conflict free zone when she asked her question.


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## Connie Sutherland

Sara Waters said:


> I think Vicki should have stuck to the conflict free zone when she asked her question.



Looks like it, huh?


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