# Malinois Arat (Dick 1) info?



## Jack Roberts (Sep 5, 2008)

Can anyone tell me more about this Malinois Arat Dick 1 ? Is anyone breeding on these old lines? Also, the dog's bone structure from his one picture looks solid. He looks like a heavier and beefier Malinois.

http://www.hondenaus.com/pedigrees/arat.html

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dogs/belgian_malinois/pedigree/247257.html

I came across Dick 1 from looking at Urosh van Joefarm. Urosh sounds like an interesting dog from the description.

http://www.hondenaus.com/pedigrees/urosh_joefarm.html


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Perhaps Martine & Chris J can help you being that they do BR, might be able to elaborate more.


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Jack Roberts said:


> Can anyone tell me more about this Malinois Arat Dick 1 ? Is anyone breeding on these old lines? Also, the dog's bone structure from his one picture looks solid. He looks like a heavier and beefier Malinois.
> 
> http://www.hondenaus.com/pedigrees/arat.html
> 
> ...


I have a Urosh great-grandson that is almost the spitting image of him in phenotype. And big, heavy bone dog but a nicely compact and athletic. 74 freaking pounds! LOL

I love hearing the history of the old lines..one of my favs is Cartouche. Hopefully you'll get more information from people who knew them firsthand and will share ;-)


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## Jack Roberts (Sep 5, 2008)

I can see how Arat was nicknamed the bulldozer. Look at thickness of the dog's neck.

Hi Candy, I am hoping to hear some of the people who would have seen or heard about some of the old lines of Malinois. Some of the older Belgian line dogs looked more like beasts than the smaller bone Malinois that you see sometimes.


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Jack Roberts said:


> I can see how Arat was nicknamed the bulldozer. Look at thickness of the dog's neck.
> 
> Hi Candy, I am hoping to hear some of the people who would have seen or heard about some of the old lines of Malinois. Some of the older Belgian line dogs looked more like beasts than the smaller bone Malinois that you see sometimes.


Hi Jack,
Yes, I too am looking forward to hearing more experienced/first hand information about these great foundation dogs. Hopeful that Martine will weigh in. I'm going to take a stab at the physical structure being related to whatever sport their type of dogs were bred for?! Like the thicker necks for higher impact hits?! Less stress on the spine? 

Should be interesting...I'm staying tuned ;-)


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Since the dog was born before I was , I don't know anything about him first hand. There are people breeding on him, but he's quite a few generations back since he's been dead for probably 25+ years. I have him in the pedigrees of a number of my dogs, but it's things like 6 6 5 5 6 6 6 7 or 5 5 6 6 7 7 7

With those numbers, even though it might appear like he's in there a lot, it's so far back that the actual influence isn't real high.


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## Jack Roberts (Sep 5, 2008)

Candy Eggert said:


> Hi Jack,
> Yes, I too am looking forward to hearing more experienced/first hand information about these great foundation dogs. Hopeful that Martine will weigh in. I'm going to take a stab at the physical structure being related to whatever sport their type of dogs were bred for?! Like the thicker necks for higher impact hits?! Less stress on the spine?
> 
> Should be interesting...I'm staying tuned ;-)


That is good observation about the thicker necks. I wonder if they were teaching a different way of leg biting. The old dogs just look more rugged to me. I am sure the training methods were a lot more compulsion and pressure on the dog.

I was hoping that maybe there were some breeders who were breeding perhaps more old style Malinois, if there is such a thing. I know that sport is good for a breed but often wonder, if you do not loose something in the dog when breeding for a specific sport. 

I thought that the older dogs may have been less bidable but at the same time more resistant to the training methods. The builds sort of reminds of a bigger stocky Australian Cattle Dog. I know with some of the stockiness that you would loose some speed and some endurance. Perhaps, though you gain other positives, such as a healthier and stronger dog.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Jack Roberts said:


> I was hoping that maybe there were some breeders who were breeding perhaps more old style Malinois, if there is such a thing.


There is an "old style", in the sense that any of the dogs from the 40's or 50's could be considered "old style". Or even 60's and 70's depending on your personal definition. But I don't think you can say that all the dogs from those years were just like dog X. Even then there was a lot of variation if you look at the old photos and videos or read the old accounts. Some were big, some were small, some were long bodied, others square. Some were social, some were not, etc. 



> I know that sport is good for a breed but often wonder, if you do not loose something in the dog when breeding for a specific sport.


I think you have to keep the big picture in mind when breeding for any specific purpose. IE dogs bred for detection work, got to remember grip quality. No one sport that I have found includes testing for everything. If Campagne included grading on grip IMO it would be the closest since it has scent work in addition to the obedience, jumps and bitework, and it includes the FR style of decoy opposition, but also environmental/scenario work.

At the same time, the sports have had a huge influence on making the dogs who they are today, if we didn't have any of the sports, I'd have to wonder what the dogs we did have would be like.



> I thought that the older dogs may have been less bidable but at the same time more resistant to the training methods.


I suspect this can be said about all the various lines/sports, since training methods 40 or 50 years ago were more "old school" then they are today. But at the same time I bet there were the same variations in what people liked, with some gravitating towards more biddable dogs, some liking harder dogs, etc.


These are all dogs from the 60's, actually I pulled them all from the same pedigree. I don't think they vary that much from what you can see today.


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## Jack Roberts (Sep 5, 2008)

Kadi,

Thanks for posting some of the older pictures. The dog is interesting looking in the lower left. The dog barely has any black mask on his face.

I agree about keeping all the positives of the breed in focus when breeding. It seems to me that some breeders may be promoting prey drive over some of the other drives. 

I do like the emphasis on the grip of the dog in NVBK. It is really too bad that NVBK did not become popular in the U.S. 

No Sports:

I agree that sports have a positive impact on a breed. I do think Schutzhund at first was a good test of the German Shepherd breed. Once people learn training methods and money become more important with the titles then the sport weakened the breed. Some people will only buy a dog from titled parents. Sometimes the highest titled dog or champion dog may not be the best stud for breeding. I know that this is well known dictum but just thought I would mention it. 

Would you buy a dog from untitled parents, if you could test the parents? What if the dogs were service dogs or police dogs with no titles, would it change your opinion of the dogs?

If I every get the chance to go Belgium, I would really like to go into the country side and see some of the Malinois on the farms. It would be interesting to see if there are non pedigreed Malinois used as herding dogs. You have to wonder if there are not ranchers breeding their own line of dogs for years. I watched a show on sheep herders in Scotland or Ireland who had been breeding family lines of border collies for generations. I would imagine that you may have some of the same thing in Belgium. 

One day, I will try to make it to Belgium. I have to make sure not to go drinking beer until after looking at the dogs. Belgium beer is about the best beer in my opinion. It is very expensive in the U.S. but I still buy it, just not all the time.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Jack Roberts said:


> Thanks for posting some of the older pictures. The dog is interesting looking in the lower left. The dog barely has any black mask on his face.


Yeah, that's an interesting looking dog. I do wonder if the photo was taken when he was older, the muzzle almost looks greyed out.



> I do like the emphasis on the grip of the dog in NVBK. It is really too bad that NVBK did not become popular in the U.S.


I just don't think there are enough people interested in the various suit sports in the US to support a bunch of sports. Schutzhund was here first, and was able to get a solid foothold, including having clubs all over the US. For any other sport, if people want to do it they have to be willing and able to create clubs, find others to train with, etc. Most will go join an existing club, which generally means Sch.



> Would you buy a dog from untitled parents, if you could test the parents? What if the dogs were service dogs or police dogs with no titles, would it change your opinion of the dogs?


If I like the dog, it's pedigree, etc I have no problem using them for breeding or buying a pup from them. One of my current stud dogs came from that type of situation, he was a K9 in France, brought to the US, I purchased him. I did start doing FR with him, but I used him for breeding before I ever put an FR title on him. I've also evaluated a number of police dogs as possible stud dogs. Haven't used one yet, but that was because I decided I didn't like the dog as much as I hoped I would, not because it didn't have titles.


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Jack Roberts said:


> One day, I will try to make it to Belgium. I have to make sure not to go drinking beer until after looking at the dogs. *Belgium beer is about the best beer in my opinion.* It is very expensive in the U.S. but I still buy it, just not all the time.


Ditto! Any favorites? Not to steer this too far off-topic.

Actually on-topic, Arat is a very nice looking dog. It has been mentioned here that various sports emphasize different traits, hence FR line dogs being smaller, faster, more agile, twitchy, etc., Belgian and Dutch dogs being thicker, bigger, etc. I DO like the look of Arat.

Candy, if you read this, which of your dogs is the spitting image of Arat's phenotype?

-Cheers


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> There is an "old style", in the sense that any of the dogs from the 40's or 50's could be considered "old style". Or even 60's and 70's depending on your personal definition. But I don't think you can say that all the dogs from those years were just like dog X. Even then there was a lot of variation if you look at the old photos and videos or read the old accounts. Some were big, some were small, some were long bodied, others square. Some were social, some were not, etc.


My first thought was this guy looks like Ron Swanson. My second thought was that, crap, the dog is almost as big as he is!



>


This one is interesting too, looks almost German Sherpherd-like with the broader face.

Thanks for posting the pictures, very interesting and rustic looking.

-Cheers


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

David Ruby said:


> Ditto! Any favorites? Not to steer this too far off-topic.
> 
> Actually on-topic, Arat is a very nice looking dog. It has been mentioned here that various sports emphasize different traits, hence FR line dogs being smaller, faster, more agile, twitchy, etc., Belgian and Dutch dogs being thicker, bigger, etc. I DO like the look of Arat.
> 
> ...


Monk beer for sure ;-) Can I get a amen?! :lol:

Hi David, not Arat, but Urosh's phenotype and maybe even some of his character :wink: He's the third link that Jack posted in the OP.


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## Jack Roberts (Sep 5, 2008)

Favorite Belgium Beer:

Current Favorite: Tripel Karmeliet 3 grain beer

Good Blonde Ales: Delirium Tremens, Duvel, Lucifer, La Chouffe, which is in your avatar symbol

Chimay Cinq Cents

I like the lambic beers.


I really like the Tripel Belgium beers. 

I just started drinking some of the sour Flemish beers. If you never had a sour beer, it is quite an experience. It is not a beer for drinking a lot.

It is off topic but I use to make my own Belgium style beer. Now, that I have kids, I just do not have the time for extra hobbies.

Dog in lower right corner:

I agree the dog looks like a thick German Shepherd, especially the head shapes.


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Jack Roberts said:


> Favorite Belgium Beer:
> 
> Current Favorite: Tripel Karmeliet 3 grain beer
> 
> ...


I like Tripel Karmeliet a lot, Delirium Tremens, La Chouffe, Orval, and Westmalle Tripel (and Dubbel) quite a bit. Achel is really nice, and I've had exactly one bottle of Westvleteren that was quite nice but not light-years above Westmalle or Rochefort or even St. Bernardus. Fantome makes some great Saison as well. I do like all of the Trappist ales, but definitely think Westmalle, Orval, Westvleteren, and Achel are my favorite Monk-brewed ales. Unibroue has some nice beers; their marketing guys are full of it, but their beer is really good.

I also really dig a nice Lambic and have gotten into the Sour Flemish beers. Just a few of those, they're hard to get round these parts. New Belgium has a few sour ales that are kind of nice and just popped up in our area. If you ever get a chance, Russian River makes some great ones, very nice ales that both taste great and are quite interesting in the best possible sense of the word.



> It is off topic but I use to make my own Belgium style beer. Now, that I have kids, I just do not have the time for extra hobbies.


Same here. I have not made any since my daughter was born, but I was able to make some really nice Trippels and some pretty good Dubbels/Belgian Dark Strong Ales. There are some incredibly good and accurate clones of Delirium Tremens, La Chouffe, and Rochefort. I really want to make some time to make another 5-gallon batch of La Chouffe, but they're all pretty amazing, AND they're fresher (and handled less) than the imported stuff. Actually, I have some sour ale aging in-keg that is three years old; it's a split 10-gallon batch of Jamil's Flanders Red recipe and half is fermented with the Wyeast Roeselare Blend and 1/2 is infected with some wood chips I got from another home brewer who is a microbiologist and blended his own bacteria from Phantome and a few others. I just realized not long ago I should tap it. I haven't even tried a glass from it yet, just forgot about it since I've heard too early and it can be awful (bandaid, dirty diaper, etc., etc.), but it should be about prime right now.

-Cheers


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Candy Eggert said:


> Monk beer for sure ;-) Can I get a amen?! :lol:


Amen! Belgium; not just for the waffles and dogs!



> Hi David, not Arat, but Urosh's phenotype and maybe even some of his character :wink: He's the third link that Jack posted in the OP.


Sorry, I misread. Gotcha.

By the way, I was looking at your dog pics to show my wife; she was much less impressed than I was. My reaction was that they were ripped, hers was that they needed a cheeseburger. :razz:

-Cheers


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Don't go forgetting their chocolate either or their Belgian buns....


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

David Ruby said:


> Amen! Belgium; not just for the waffles and dogs!
> 
> Sorry, I misread. Gotcha.
> 
> ...


Tell your wife she's right...Rico was far too thin in a few of those photos :smile: He ain't no Bull Dog for sure ;-);-) He's back up to his fighting weight now, 74 pounds on the vet scale #-o Some Mals are just hard keepers for weight.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

David Ruby said:


> This one is interesting too, looks almost German Sherpherd-like with the broader face.
> 
> -Cheers


:-o:-o Are ou serious? This is a very normal nvbk type mal. This dog's head and ears don't even come close to a GSD.

I haven't seen Arat work life (I'm not "that" old ), but I have known De Mits with Tarzan and Dick II.
At that time a lot of dogs were stockier, but they were also slower then the malinois today.
The "Flanders" type as we call it here were very strong biters with huge grips, but they were slow and no good jumpers. Also the obedience was slow and without charisma.
Later, when a lot of good handlers came over from Belgian Kennel Club, with their smaller type dogs, that were trained more punctual and worked and jumped like machines, the old NVBK trainers were forced to put more effort in the perfection of the training as it wasn't possible anymore to win otherwise.
The lines were mixed which resulted in the actual working dog type.


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Martine Loots said:


> :-o:-o Are ou serious? This is a very normal nvbk type mal. This dog's head and ears don't even come close to a GSD.


I just meant they looked wider and blockier than my mental image of a Mal. The ones I tend to see (in real life or just video/pics) I tend to see as having narrower muzzles and heads, a bit more slender builds, and probably when I was first looking into them I may have saw smaller lines (more FR-type perhaps). So my mental image of a Malinois (which _is _changing, to be fair) was a bit more of the lean and agile type, and the German Shepherds I tend to view as bigger, bulkier, fluffier, so that's what my mind first went to when I saw the pic.

That and the historical pics show the German Shepherds, Dutch Shepherds, and Malinois all looking fairly close in phenotype (to me, but maybe it's because I'm more of a Bulldog guy), and I tend to see them as kind of evolving from the same origins (roughly), so I seem them almost as coming from different points on more-or-less the same spectrum. So to me, the NVBK dogs tend to strike me as a bit more German Shepherd-ish (kinda/sorta) in their build than how I tend to think of Malinois. I could have said it looks _almost_ as good as a nice Bulldog, what with that thick neck and body (que Bulldog jokes in T-minus 3...2...). 

-Cheers


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Martine Loots said:


> I haven't seen Arat work life (I'm not "that" old ), but I have known De Mits with Tarzan and Dick II.
> At that time a lot of dogs were stockier, but they were also slower then the malinois today.
> The "Flanders" type as we call it here were very strong biters with huge grips, but they were slow and no good jumpers. Also the obedience was slow and without charisma.
> Later, when a lot of good handlers came over from Belgian Kennel Club, with their smaller type dogs, that were trained more punctual and worked and jumped like machines, the old NVBK trainers were forced to put more effort in the perfection of the training as it wasn't possible anymore to win otherwise.
> The lines were mixed which resulted in the actual working dog type.


Historically, what niche did the bigger, slower dogs fill before they were mixed with the smaller, more agile dogs? Also, was the push for the mixed-lines solely due to the competition/sport angle, or was there perceived benefits from outside the realm of the sport world? Just from a history geek perspective just wondering what went into the development of the bigger, slower, less-charismatic OB type of dogs.

-Cheers


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

David Ruby said:


> Historically, what niche did the bigger, slower dogs fill before they were mixed with the smaller, more agile dogs? Also, was the push for the mixed-lines solely due to the competition/sport angle, or was there perceived benefits from outside the realm of the sport world? Just from a history geek perspective just wondering what went into the development of the bigger, slower, less-charismatic OB type of dogs.
> 
> -Cheers


Target of any handler is "winning" and the breeding program will be adapted to achieve that goal.
IMO the mix with the BKC lines was good because it brought an overall type of dog (agile, good jumper, good grips, strong character). It was an improvement for sure and both sides of the deal contributed to the final qualities.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Martine Loots said:


> Target of any handler is "winning" and the breeding program will be adapted to achieve that goal.
> IMO the mix with the BKC lines was good because it brought an overall type of dog (agile, good jumper, good grips, strong character). It was an improvement for sure and both sides of the deal contributed to the final qualities.


So would you say that the NVBK dogs been bred now are stronger, better dogs that the older dogs like G'vitou, G'Bibber etc? 
You hear these dogs talked about as legends, but how do you feel they would compare if they were up against the current dogs? Not so much on the points sides of things, but in the character.


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## Jack Roberts (Sep 5, 2008)

I was wondering the same thing about the dogs' character. 

Were the older Malinois more hard headed but stronger dogs as far as character? 

A better question, were the older dogs better guardians of property than modern lines? I am discussing natural guardian instincts, not trained.


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Martine Loots said:


> Target of any handler is "winning" and the breeding program will be adapted to achieve that goal.


Sure, but I am interested in:

* The development of dogs (or, honestly, _lots_ of things in the world) just based on a pragmatic use and natural development, vs;

* The development of dogs (or, again, guns, education systems, Martial Arts, Yo-Yo's, bicycles, whatever) to perform markedly better on some formal evaluation or competition of some sort.

Not saying one is necessarily better, I just find it interesting the development based on more holistic or abstract ("real world" if you will) criteria vs. creating an evaluation to test for X-factors and either creating a dog/whatever that does better in said test, or using that test as a way to just see how dogs/whatever actually work without looking at it in a point/"winning" sort of criteria.

In other words (since I'm guilty of being wordy), what niche the dogs were initially developed for, and how breeding them for NVBK changed them (which you've covered) and if it changed their niche outside of sport or just made them overall more versatile dogs. I'm also interested in archaeology, anthropology, and sociology for similar reasons.

-Cheers


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Christopher Jones said:


> So would you say that the NVBK dogs been bred now are stronger, better dogs that the older dogs like G'vitou, G'Bibber etc?
> You hear these dogs talked about as legends, but how do you feel they would compare if they were up against the current dogs? Not so much on the points sides of things, but in the character.


There will always be strong dogs and more sporty types. It was like that then and it still is the fact now.
They were good dogs, but certainly not better then the current strong dogs.
On the competition field the current dogs would outplay them for sure.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

David Ruby said:


> Sure, but I am interested in:
> 
> In other words (since I'm guilty of being wordy), what niche the dogs were initially developed for, and how breeding them for NVBK changed them (which you've covered) and if it changed their niche outside of sport or just made them overall more versatile dogs. I'm also interested in archaeology, anthropology, and sociology for similar reasons.
> 
> -Cheers


Those dogs were bred for Belgian Ring NVBK from the start. There never was another niche.


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