# Making Dog Abuse a Felony



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

There is a proposal in Ohio to make dog abuse a felony instead of a misdemeanor.
http://www.nitrofoundation.com/

I support the idea and think it should happen in all 50 States.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> There is a proposal in Ohio to make dog abuse a felony instead of a misdemeanor.
> http://www.nitrofoundation.com/
> 
> I support the idea and think it should happen in all 50 States.


of course you do...Thomas oh do you love your government...ever been targeted by AC thomas?

can anyone explain how you get 22 abuse charges for 7 dogs, or how you can get 15 abandonment charges on 7 dogs, when you are home when AC comes there?

the rest is speculation at best to comment on. Once AC targets you, you are screwed. 

I had a run in with AC here. with my own dog. They threatened to take my dog and charge me with cruelty and neglect. 

Just last fall I had a dog in a crate in my jeep for a few hours when I was visiting a girlfriend and someone called the police when they say me put the dog in the car..I argued with them, they called out animal control... 

we went round and round me and the police, it was in the fall, it was like 50 degrees out. I had a couple gallons of water and a bin of food in the car right next to the crate, and they still threatened to take the dog because it was being "housed" in a vehicle, while I was visiting a friend, the dog had been let out for a break and some water about 15 minutes before the police showed up, the bowl still had water in the bottom of it. 

it was a nice cool fall day, not warm at all...windows were cracked, even though it was drizzling rain outside... 

the animal control officer even made the comment on how cruel she felt it was to have the dog in the vehicle in the rain..and that it might traumatize the dog.. 

I said the dog was probably much happier in the car, than being out in the rain and also mentioned that if the dog was going to be traumatized from staying in the crate in the car for a few hours, I would probably get rid of it, or maybe have it euthanized,that did NOT go over well.. 

long story short, I had to drag the crate into her house, and keep the dog in his living room, or they were going to take it.. 

she had 2 cats, the dog was under much more stress in the house, than in the vehicle, I even called them back to let them know that.. 

During that incident I challenged them to tell me what law I was breaking, because they just kept saying that I could not have the dog in the Jeep, that it was against the law...they could not provide that statute number to me, as there is NO law concerning that, they got me on the no water available though, that is a law. dog must have water at all times...and threatened to take the dog and hit me with a few charges... 

even though, by co-incidence, the house I was visiting actually had no water for the humans inside, because they were working on a water main burst, and had the water shut off, on that very day.. I told the people the dog had drank plenty of water, there were 2 gallons right there, even though there was not water available to us in the house, because the city was depriving us of water...

but we all know that things go overboard all the time.. 

some people think 2 piles of crap in a 12 foot kennel is unsanitary, and that kenneling a dog at all is neglect...I dont know, but I have seen it first hand, how things get blown way out of proportion... 

they took one dog from a freind of mine for small bleeding from his mouth, because he was chewing on kennel fencing while AC was there, the dog was reacting to them trying to "inspect" him and cut his gums up.... 

another dog had a very small cut on his leg, I mean SMALL cut, from running around in a brush pile... took him too, for untreated lacerations.

they took another dog from him, becuase he had no FOOD in his bowl, there is no law here in IL that a dog has to have FOOD at all times... 

hell...my dog only has food in the bowl about 3 minutes a day total..that means for 23 hours and 57 minutes a day the dog is without food ... 

anyone that breeds dogs, or has multiple dogs and the wrong AC officer comes at the wrong time, youre screwed...pups are nasty, everyone knows this.. 

ever have a fingerpainting, crate shitter? that just doesnt care if he craps in his crate and likes to play in it? I have...some dogs are nastier than others...that is for sure... 

ever have kennels in the midwest? it snows...crap gets buried. once it thaws..you find it, all melted with the snow. 

not excusing any wrongdoing here. just stating that AC can and do fukk people over all the time. 
what is a laceration? sounds bad doesnt it? could have been scratches, I have seen this happen.. 

ever have a dog bite his tongue or cheek in bitework? do you run to the vet? 

if you have a minor squabble and a dog gets bitten? do you run to the vet? 

.it could happen to anyone that houses multiple dogs in kennel situation.... 

any training group meeting, dogs are in cars and crates, many times dogs crap in the crates..many times they bite their own mouths, many times they dont have water in the crates at ALL times, hell the "abusers" even often have other people hit their dogs with sticks.. anyone of those owners could be slapped with animal abuse charges on a whim...



I had another incident with my current dog, she got ahold of the next door neighbors dog that came into my yard I did not even see the dog... 

AC told me I should take my dog to OB classes...I told them the dog was very well trained in OB. 

she told me obviously not, since the dog bit another dog...that if the dog was OB trained it would be friendly with other dogs in my yard, and never bite them... 

you want to give the AC power to hand out felonies? not me..
you might think different if they gave you one, like they could if they really wanted to..for a whole host of things that are not worthy of a felony charge.

remember is some areas it is illegal to tease or frustrate a dog, tying a dog out and building some prey or working on targeting, could be a felony charge if you get your way..

it is selective prosecution..

sure a felony, I can get on board, in cases where extreme abuse is PROVEN. having knows people that got charges with animal abuse, for having dogs with very minor injuries I would not get behind that movement personally... just last week we had a dog bite his tongue pretty good, and while resting in his crate, he shit in it and played with it...if AC would have showed up at that moment, that poor dude could have felony charges if they were on the books


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## Mark Sheplak (Oct 28, 2011)

Agreed, but one has to be very careful how you define "abuse". It is pretty obvious in the case that is driving this law. 

The purely positive crowd may define abuse as e-collars, prong collars, reed sticks, etc. I don't want to be on the training field, give my dog a correction that yields a vocalization, and end up being indicted on a felony. 

I guess this particular law deals with my concern via, 

_(4) The use of common training devices, if the companion animal is being treated in accordance with usual and commonly accepted practices for the training of animals; _


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

When dogs die of starvation I call it abuse
When dogs die from being kicked or beaten I call it abuse
When dogs are VICK timized by being shot, hung etc. I call it abuse.
When people kill multiple dogs and receive a four month sentence I call it a travesty.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

side issues maybe but still applies IMO :

It is beyond belief that ANYONE could abandon their dog and turn it over to a "boarding facility" of ANY kind and not follow up FREQUENTLY to see how it is being cared for ... you CANNOT abuse and starve a dog to death in a week or two :evil::evil::evil:
- but if you do that, i can't think of a better example of totally irresponsible dog ownership, and if your dog ends up dead you better be willing to accept some of the blame for allowing it to happen !
- so where was NITRO'S "momma" and "poor papa" when he was being slowly killed ??? on vacation ??

ANY facility anywhere in the WORLD should have cell phone and pic capability as a bare MINIMUM for christ sakes....total no brainer; so why are these incidents "suddenly" discovered and then get huge media attention ????? 
- does some PETA group have stock photos of decomposing dog corpses to post up ??
- and i'm NOT talking about a mess made by a bunch of pups playin in their poop and knocking over their water bucket 

NO difference in my mind between dumping a dog and turning it over to ANYONE anywhere to "board" or "train" unless you are willing and able to monitor your dog FREQUENTLY. if you can't, get it to someone who can and stop rationalizing reasons why you are dumping it :evil::evil::evil:


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

Sure go ahead make it a felony. I've been unofficially designated as the animal detective for my agency. So I tend to get the "Animal Cruelty" cases when they come in. Luckily when the discussion starts to happen about criminal charges and not animal ordinance violations animal control hands their stuff over and walks away. In some jurisdictions Animal Control has way too much authority. The fact that the punishment is not high enough is not why these don't get prosecuted much, it's because these cases are problematic for a lot of reasons, but one of them that Mark eluded to is the language is broad and hard to define. In texas you can kill your own animal (good thing that way Euthanasia doesn't end you up in prison) providing it's not a "cruel manner" Is shooting your own dog a cruel manner?? Depends who you ask. Many times there is little evidence to actually prove what happened. I actually have one now, were some dogs were poisoned (I think, no necropsy was done) but in the end I have no proof who did it. Most I can do is ask, "Did you do it?" If they are smart they say, "Hell no" and that's the end of it. 

I am not saying that some cases don't deserve prosecution. I had one a while back I would have liked to have done something about it, but couldn't, no evidence, and no witnesses only rumor in the neighborhood. But I think people tend to get emotional about their pets and we need to temper that with a lot of common sense.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Ecollars are already banned in Wales.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Thomas Barriano said:


> There is a proposal in Ohio to make dog abuse a felony instead of a misdemeanor.
> http://www.nitrofoundation.com/
> 
> I support the idea and think it should happen in all 50 States.


Meaning that cases brought to trial and ending in a guilty verdict for aggravated cruelty be a felony instead of a misdemeanor?

I think aggravated cruelty means something like this:

The person purposely and knowingly: 
(1) inflicts cruelty to an animal with the purpose of terrifying, torturing, or mutilating the animal; or 
(2) inflicts cruelty to animals in a collection, kennel, or herd of 10 or more animals.

"Convicted" is crucial, too.

JMO.



For me (JMO), starving eight dogs to death, chained outside on concrete without water until they died of starvation ..... 4 months in jail doesn't cut it for me.

I don't know what the answer is, though. What is the answer?


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## catherine hardigan (Oct 12, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> of course you do...Thomas oh do you love your government...ever been targeted by AC thomas?
> 
> ...


Dude, chill.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

this thread didn't intend to discuss whether training methods might be abusive or not, or whether Ecollars are good or bad ](*,)

a rotting carcass in a kennel would seem to indicate something other than boarding and training, right ?
...if you see that picture and wonder why or how it might NOT have been abusive care, please crawl back under your rock where you belong

anyone who wants to help address the issue by pointing out animal abuse is a grey area and hard to convict, yada yada
... golly GEE, thanks for the enlightenment ](*,) but you're NOT being a part of the solution ](*,)

anyone who thinks thousands of dogs get killed thru neglect and many levels of abuse, join the real world and do your BEST in whatever way you CAN to help prevent it !!
....but don't join PETA, please 

emotional issue for me and easy to identify when i see it. EVERYONE involved should pay, even the OWNER 

kinda like training a dog ... don't tell me how "hard" it is, show me how to do it if i'm doing it wrong


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

_" ... but if you do that, i can't think of a better example of totally irresponsible dog ownership, and if your dog ends up dead you better be willing to accept some of the blame for allowing it to happen !"_

Yes, but legally?

I'm thinking no. Knowledge and deliberate intent and all that go right out the window if it's clouded with blaming the owner who pays for his/her dog to be cared for.

Me? I'd never have left my dog without a lot of checking. But I still think that not doing so isn't being a conspirator or an accomplice.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I think you had better be really careful before you start asking for laws regarding animals. We are in a situation where certain groups want to put them on the same level as people and govern every aspect of animal keeping. Its easy to jump to conclusions. Dead dog in kennel is suspect but I can think of many medical reasons of how he got there. Woke up one morning and my dog was dead--bloat overnight was the vet diagnosis after opening her up. If someone had stopped by before hubby came home to help me move her--80 lbs, what would they think? You cannot improve state of mind [knowingly with the intent of. . .] except to infer it from the physical evidence or certain actions. Is the dog getting enough food? A lot of working dog people have the dog's ribs showing. I personally don't want to SEE ribs but want to be able to feel them. Cruelty? What evidence are they going to use to prove this up? Didn't get the kennel cleaned that day--filthy conditions? In Joby's example, 7 dogs--multiple charges--stacking charges for drama which probably won't stand up and you'll see a lot of them dismissed. In one story, owners picked up their dogs. So what was left? I don't condone sloppy business practices and certain people should be done in dogs professionally. I don't condone how people treat their animals in training or otherwise. Doesn't change the big picture. 

Like Joby, I took a dog to work one day so I could take him to the vet after work. 50 degree day with pouring rain all day. I could see him in the car from my office window. Some people in the complex had seen me walk him and knew new he was in the car. Next thing I know a cop is walking around my car looking in the window. I run out and have to explain to him WHY he is in the car and no I didn't have a water bucket in the car and if he were at home he'd be in his crate sleeping all day instead of my car with me coming out to walk him and give him water. After deciding that he "looked" fine he told me that people will walk by a closed vehicle with children in it and he gets more calls about pets. 

You have to think about what you are setting the precedent for and how that can be applied to other aspects of keeping animals. It can spin out of control real easy.


T


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

I agree with Joby and Terrisita.

Be very, very careful of what you ask for.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Jim Engel said:


> I agree with Joby and Terrisita.
> 
> Be very, very careful of what you ask for.


As do I.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Jim Engel said:


> I agree with Joby and Terrisita.
> 
> Be very, very careful of what you ask for.


Indeed, because you just might get it. But not quite like you planned, hoped, or expected to.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

So paranoia based on what a few Animal Control Officers might do means you let someone who causes the painful deaths of multiple dogs get away with a misdemeanor sentence of 4 months
(If even that) REALLY? :-(


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

So many times the idea of "abuse" is in the mind of the beholder. Or driven by the image presented. Some feel that crates are abuse, Keeping a dog kenneled is abuse, not allowing the dog to be a part of the family and living in the home is abuse, it's just so broad.

We had a case where a farmer who had a few horses was notified on abuse charges. The complaint was that his horses were outside during inclimate weather (at the time it was drizzly rain). No matter that there was a run-in shed in the field so that the horses had shelter, food, and clean water available. Because the horses CHOSE to stand outside and not take shelter AC was called. AC told the farmer that he would need to physically tie/pen the horses inside the shed or the horses would be removed for lack of care. 

To much of what is going on is being driven by the dudly-do-gooder who interject what their definition of abuse is. It's a slippery slope all based on opinion or perception in many instances with little understanding of the actual situation. Alot of people feel that by putting the dog into harm's way (LE, SAR, MWDs, etc) is abuse. Where do you draw the line? And who gets to draw it?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Thomas..I did not even read the story to be honest.

Sounds like a judge made the call, and could have given the guy a much longer sentence. Misdemeanors in most areas are punishable up to a year in Jail. 

Point is this, even if it was a felony, without a mandatory sentence there still might be the same outcome.

Upon reading the site. The mission is very clear...


"Nitro's Law HB90 is a very specific limited bill, it does not cover all abusers/abuses, once passed, it is our mission to build onto it to include more and more and more."


"...currently in place for violent crimes against animals in Ohio.....Nitro's law is the* first step towards a felony for all animal abuse in Ohio.*"


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

lets not forget Debbies crazy authorities that call teasing or frustrating a dog, abusive..


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Thomas Barriano said:


> So paranoia based on what a few Animal Control Officers might do means you let someone who causes the painful deaths of multiple dogs get away with a misdemeanor sentence of 4 months
> (If even that) REALLY? :-(


Websters defines paranoia as:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/paranoia

1: a psychosis characterized by systematized delusions of persecution or grandeur usually without hallucinations

2: a tendency on the part of an individual or group toward excessive or irrational suspiciousness and distrustfulness of others

Therefore I think characterizing the experiences of Joby, Terrasita, and others is incorrect. 

Remember the 2005 20/20 Investigation into corrupt and power hungry ACOs and SPCAs by John Stossel? It's very enlightening.
http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=817494&page=1

And finally, as Joby pointed out, even on the "Nitro's Law" website they state this is only the first step.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

I love animals, don't get me wrong. But at this point I'd put my efforts into getting rapists a year in prison.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

My first thoughts are how bite sports will be judged. 
the club I belonged to was in a public park (we had permits) but I saw, on more then one occasion where people seeing us train would complain about the ''poor dogs being hit with sticks" .
Luckily the Park Rangers were all familiar with the clulb and their methods.


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## Lalit Dukkipati (May 24, 2011)

Thomas Barriano said:


> When dogs die of starvation I call it abuse
> When dogs die from being kicked or beaten I call it abuse
> When dogs are VICK timized by being shot, hung etc. I call it abuse.
> When people kill multiple dogs and receive a four month sentence I call it a travesty.


 completely agree !


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re: what Connie wrote ...."legal ?" .. i agree; probably not

BUT......my post was not written from any particular "legal" point of view
- it was written based on old fashioned morality, integrity, responsibility and accountability. still easier for me to understand what these terms mean as compared to what is "legal", which if often defined by the slickest lawyer. once an issue goes to court, who's right, who's wrong, and who's responsible for what, mostly depends on who's got the best LEGAL team ... which makes my old fashioned views irrelevant. that's why i said to do what you can if you get the chance, etc etc 

to me, some of these responses seemed like some people have more issues with how hard it is to prove rather than accepting it is a worldwide problem that needs fixing....
- BUT when people become more responsible and accountable, that is usually a GOOD thing, so more of it should be spread around in my view.
- talking about an "incident" that ends up being a "non problem" is not productive either because that happens all the time
- drawing a connection to paranoia is weird. posting a dictionary def is kinda useless also
- i don't agree with law's banning Ecollars, and i like them, but i could still train a dog without one if i had to and they are crutches for a lot of trainers and owners 
- if you think tuffer laws will eliminate the bite sports, YOU are the one being paranoid.
- of course there are idiots in AC and poorly run shelters. file complaints against them before they come to you. if i had to face dog abuse on a daily basis i might get too extreme also ... same conditioning that produces "bad cops", so deal with it .. it happens sometimes in the real world ](*,)

i do my part to promote appropriate dog training and boarding. i make an effort to get close to our city's (250,000 pop) LE so that the local cops know me. i make it a point to take problem dogs around their police boxes when i'm working with a dog so that they can see what i do. NEVER had a problem in over 15 years. in Japan, dog rights are decades behind the states laws and until a few years ago you could beat a dog to death in public and no charges of any type could be filed. MANY establishments won't even let certified guide dogs inside. and if i am boarding a dog and the owner won't monitor it frequently, they get it back ASAP. SIMPLE policy that ANY boarding facility could and should have in place.

backing off from this issue is no different than denial that it exists and won't help at all. if you don't think many thousands of dogs ARE abused and killed thru no fault of their own, you live under a rock. when it gets uncovered it should be AGGRESSIVELY investigated and dealt with, and in most cases there is accountability by the owner that should also be addressed. there are always grey areas and extremes on both sides of this issue. 
** all i say is we should recognize the problem and do what we can WHENEVER we get a chance

not that it matters, but as an example :
i recently lost a dog, and after a lot of review, analysis and lessons learned, from MANY viewpoints, i've accepted that the death was also partially my fault. and because of that, there are things i will change in the way i care for, handle and train dogs that are under my responsibility to prevent it from happening again.
- if i went into the details, there would be many people here that would say i had no responsibility for the dog's death if they applied the same logic and train of thought they have applied to this thread

the Nitro link certainly appeals mostly to the emotion side, but i doubt the pics of rotting dogs were photo shopped. i didn't see a link to the proposed law so i have no idea how it was written. but i am still for TUFF anti-dog abuse laws that BITE.

my political views tend to be on the libertarian side. i like guns and automatic weps can be great home defense weps if used appropriately. i also think drivers licenses and traffic signals are necessary in modern societies
- dogs can't speak for themselves and people have been manipulating them for a long time. until laws against abuse are improved, thousands more will be abused and killed, and responsible owners, like most of the people on this forum, should take the lead and not leave it up to the PETA extremists

off the soapbox....
.... unless you want to know how i REALLY feel .


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

rick smith said:


> if i am boarding a dog and the owner won't monitor it frequently, they get it back ASAP. SIMPLE policy that ANY boarding facility could and should have in place..


Why should they? They are paying YOU to monitor the dog while it's in your care, why should they pay you for a service, then be held responsible for doing your job?

IMO an ideal situation for a kennel owner and customer would be some sort of online photo or video system, a live feed from the kennel to a website at certain times of the day or something like that. So the owner can pop online and see how the dog is doing, without disrupting the people working at the facility. Or disrupting the dog, some dogs take awhile to settle in, regular visits by the owner to monitor things are going to make the process even longer/rougher on the dog. But I can also see why someone running a legitimate business, taking proper care of the dogs, etc still wouldn't want to deal with this, you will get to many people who are calling because Fluffy was barking non-stop and someone should go play with him, or they see a pile of poop in his run (30 minutes after the runs were cleaned) and someone should stop what they are doing and go clean it immediately, or Fluffy is trying to take a nap and the dog in the next run over is trying to play with him and bothering him, or ...

Is an owner responsible for doing due diligence before they leave their dog at a facility? Of course. If you leave your dog at a facility that is dirty, has dogs that look unfed, poorly cared for, etc and something happens to their dog the owner obviously bears some blame. But if they drop their dog off with a facility that has a good reputation, looks clean, dogs look well cared for, etc only to find out later it was all a front, or something changed after they dropped their dog off, I don't see how you can place the blame on the owner.

I could get behind a law that gives judges the option to make animal abuse a felony, or hand out longer sentences, etc. I think 4 months for what this person did is a joke and the system that allowed that needs to be fixed. But I couldn't support a law that automatically made all of it a felony, to many potentials for abuse of power for reasons people have already given.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Katie Finlay said:


> I love animals, don't get me wrong. But at this point I'd put my efforts into getting rapists a year in prison.


Yes, agreed. People get way more upset about a dog being abused than a woman being raped.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Katie Finlay said:


> I love animals, don't get me wrong. But at this point I'd put my efforts into getting rapists a year in prison.



In fact, I can think of _many_ horrors to work at reducing. 




This thread, though, is about dog abuse. 

Just sayin' ......


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I could get behind a law that gives judges the option to make animal abuse a felony, or hand out longer sentences, etc. I think 4 months for what this person did is a joke and the system that allowed that needs to be fixed.



This seems viable to me for aggravated abuse ..... 


I too think that the four-month sentence for this is just unbelievable .... starving eight dogs to death, chained outside on concrete without water or food until they died .....


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Why should they? They are paying YOU to monitor the dog while it's in your care, why should they pay you for a service, then be held responsible for doing your job?
> 
> IMO an ideal situation for a kennel owner and customer would be some sort of online photo or video system, a live feed from the kennel to a website at certain times of the day or something like that. So the owner can pop online and see how the dog is doing, without disrupting the people working at the facility. Or disrupting the dog, some dogs take awhile to settle in, regular visits by the owner to monitor things are going to make the process even longer/rougher on the dog. But I can also see why someone running a legitimate business, taking proper care of the dogs, etc still wouldn't want to deal with this, you will get to many people who are calling because Fluffy was barking non-stop and someone should go play with him, or they see a pile of poop in his run (30 minutes after the runs were cleaned) and someone should stop what they are doing and go clean it immediately, or Fluffy is trying to take a nap and the dog in the next run over is trying to play with him and bothering him, or ...
> 
> ...


This.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Why should they? They are paying YOU to monitor the dog while it's in your care, why should they pay you for a service, then be held responsible for doing your job?
> 
> IMO an ideal situation for a kennel owner and customer would be some sort of online photo or video system, a live feed from the kennel to a website at certain times of the day or something like that. So the owner can pop online and see how the dog is doing, without disrupting the people working at the facility. Or disrupting the dog, some dogs take awhile to settle in, regular visits by the owner to monitor things are going to make the process even longer/rougher on the dog. But I can also see why someone running a legitimate business, taking proper care of the dogs, etc still wouldn't want to deal with this, you will get to many people who are calling because Fluffy was barking non-stop and someone should go play with him, or they see a pile of poop in his run (30 minutes after the runs were cleaned) and someone should stop what they are doing and go clean it immediately, or Fluffy is trying to take a nap and the dog in the next run over is trying to play with him and bothering him, or ...
> 
> ...


+ 1 to like the bazillionth power


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

OK, Lets define "abuse" in the context of making it a felony.
To me e-collars and prongs and other training devises are NOT abusive. Any action that causes the death or permanent disfigurement is abuse. Give the district attorneys the option to prosecute as a misdemeanor or felony and the judges some options on sentencing. Four months for killing eight dogs is a travesty. Animal Control should investigate and issues summons
NOT decide what level the person is charged.


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

> So paranoia based on what a few Animal Control Officers might do means you let someone who causes the painful deaths of multiple dogs get away with a misdemeanor sentence of 4 months
> (If even that) REALLY? :sad:


Hell a rapist only gets 4 or 5 years. Thats more serious than kicking a dog. Police and AC already have to much power in my opinion. I believe we should be putting more time and energy into real problems. There are dogs starving all over the place here on the reservations. No one is going to jail for that. 
Extremism in all forms is dangerous. The Nanny state needs to be avoided at all cost.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Thomas Barriano said:


> OK, Lets define "abuse" in the context of making it a felony.
> To me e-collars and prongs and other training devises are NOT abusive. Any action that causes the death or permanent disfigurement is abuse.


However, there are many people who do classify the above items as abusive. The use of such items have been banned in several countries. Abuse can take many forms that do not neccessarily result in death or disfigurement but that does not make them any less abusive. 
The line, if drawn, must not become the slippery slope to catch the innocent or further an extremist agenda.


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## Mark Sheplak (Oct 28, 2011)

Sarah Platts said:


> However, there are many people who do classify the above items as abusive. The use of such items have been banned in several countries. Abuse can take many forms that do not neccessarily result in death or disfigurement but that does not make them any less abusive.
> The line, if drawn, must not become the slippery slope to catch the innocent or further an extremist agenda.


In Wales, the use of an e-collar is punishable by fines up to 20,000 British pounds (~ $30,000) or 6 months in prison.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/8584028.stm

As always, there are enough idiots in this country that would abuse a broadly written law. Heck, even the WUSV is against e-collars and prong collars.

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/cgi-bin/item.cgi?d=pndpr&f=pnfpr&h=241&id=729

Four months is a travesty for what was done, but making abuse a felony when it is broadly written is problematic.


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## Mario Fernandez (Jun 21, 2008)

The Bill that is being proposed in Ohio is geared more to kennels, owners and their employees of a facility that they may be prosecuted for animal cruelty. However it leaves some language that is ambiguousand may also apply to pet owners.

What is up with Ohio? Been five kennels in the past five years been reported for animal abuse, dead animals in and oh their facilities. Also four puppy mills busted in five years. 

A club member had a nice IPO1 GSD he bought off a guy that was getting a divorce. Dog was too much for him at the time and through a friend who vouched for this "Steve Croley of High Caliber K9r" placed the dog with him. The dog was at the same facility as the owner behind this bill. The GSD had to be put down because the dog was starved to death. All the while the Steve Croley was giving him updates on how good the dog was doing in training.


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

Sarah Platts said:


> However, there are many people who do classify the above items as abusive. The use of such items have been banned in several countries. Abuse can take many forms that do not neccessarily result in death or disfigurement but that does not make them any less abusive.
> The line, if drawn, must not become the slippery slope to catch the innocent or further an extremist agenda.



and those people that classify them as abusive are the ones shouting the loudest.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I thought I remembered Missouri was a Felony animal abuse state and had a decent model based on previous conviction:

*578.012. Animal abuse--penalties
*1. A person is guilty of animal abuse when a person:
(1) Intentionally or purposely kills an animal in any manner not allowed by or expressly exempted from the provisions of sections 578.005 to 578.023 and 273.030, RSMo;
(2) Purposely or intentionally causes injury or suffering to an animal; or
(3) Having ownership or custody of an animal knowingly fails to provide adequate care or adequate control.

2. Animal abuse is a class A misdemeanor, unless the defendant has previously plead guilty to or has been found guilty of animal abuse or the suffering involved in subdivision (2) of subsection 1 of this section is the result of torture or mutilation, or both, consciously inflicted while the animal was alive, in which case it is a class D felony.


http://asci.uvm.edu/equine/law/cruelty/mo_cruel.htm

My disclaimer is that I haven't checked for updates. I think this was last amended in 2001.


T


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## mel boschwitz (Apr 23, 2010)

Katie Finlay said:


> I love animals, don't get me wrong. But at this point I'd put my efforts into getting rapists a year in prison.



Earlier this week a jury in my county gave a guy 99 years for drunk driving. You should see what we do to rapists. Lol


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I thought I remembered Missouri was a Felony animal abuse state and had a decent model based on previous conviction:
> 
> *578.012. Animal abuse--penalties
> *1. A person is guilty of animal abuse when a person:
> ...


I imagine that is how it is in lots of places,

Nitro's Law is looking for felonies on first time offenses..


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Brett Bowen said:


> and those people that classify them as abusive are the ones shouting the loudest.


No, they are not. This seems to be a common preception but I've seen people who misuse the items and I'm not exactly squeamish. So until the dog industry can keep all their own players in line, then there is a hue and cry for Big Brother. It's the person who sees a guy in a park pull a device from their pocket and then sees the dog give a yelp and immediatly cringe down. It's the image that a prong collar looks abusive (and can be made/used abusively) that makes the general population think it's a bad idea. I've had people walk up to me saying that if I bothered to train my dog then I would need that nasty thing on his neck (a prong collar) and offer me a coupon to Petsmart for a dog OB class.

Remember most of this starts with something dramatic (a dog starved to death) and flood the media with the cry that something needs to be done. I remember a case a couple of years ago where a police K9 officer starved to death his departamental BH, He got one year probation.

http://www.examiner.com/article/one...-former-miami-police-officer-that-starved-dog

And a quick google search shows that this seems to happen with some regularity so how is the public suppose to take this? When abuse seems to involve all walks of life: from general public, to kennel operators, to LE, by people who profess that they love dogs, how can it be controlled? Gee, lets make it a law then it HAS to be enforced and someone will be made accountable. 

I'm not painting any one good or bad here but playing Devil's Advocate. Its all about preception and appearances with some dramatic reality thrown in for good measure. So alot of stuff will start out with the best of intentions and then go sideways and end up in places never imagined or intended. Then the problem is how can it be undone? How much campaigning would need to be done to change the law? It has been my experience that it's easy to get a law made. It's alot more work to get one unmade.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> I imagine that is how it is in lots of places,
> 
> Nitro's Law is looking for felonies on first time offenses..


If the first offense is you kill eight dogs? Then yeah it should be a felony.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> If the first offense is you kill eight dogs? Then yeah it should be a felony.


Thomas..

on the surface I can agree with that, as it seems like a good idea..but even in the Nitro's Law founders own writings, they say that they plan to apply it to more and more types of "abuse". With the main goal to apply it to ALL forms of animal "abuse".

a huge variety of things can be classified by the word abuse..depending on who is doing the classification. Some lady actually opened a dogs crate at my buddies house, let it out of the crate, and took off its collars, because she thought the dog was suffering from "animal cruelty", and then called the police when she saw us doing tie out work with an IPO dog..

you have to know that a law like that will be expanded upon, and could eventually grow into something that can affect even what YOU do with your dogs on a weekly basis...

dog gets a cut on its pad, foot bleeds a little, have a litter of puppies and they hang off of mom or dad's face or neck, and there is a small puncture, and you dont have a vet receipt for those "wounds", you are already guilty of "animal abuse" in many many jurisdictions, if they decide to charge you...believe that...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Sarah Platts said:


> No, they are not. This seems to be a common preception but I've seen people who misuse the items and I'm not exactly squeamish. So until the dog industry can keep all their own players in line, then there is a hue and cry for Big Brother. It's the person who sees a guy in a park pull a device from their pocket and then sees the dog give a yelp and immediatly cringe down. It's the image that a prong collar looks abusive (and can be made/used abusively) that makes the general population think it's a bad idea. I've had people walk up to me saying that if I bothered to train my dog then I would need that nasty thing on his neck (a prong collar) and offer me a coupon to Petsmart for a dog OB class.
> 
> Remember most of this starts with something dramatic (a dog starved to death) and flood the media with the cry that something needs to be done. I remember a case a couple of years ago where a police K9 officer starved to death his departamental BH, He got one year probation.
> 
> ...


That happens alot, and often not by accident either, in many examples of this concerning all types of law, not just animal law. it is some really extremist views that get the ball rolling, and the shyt gets passed, and then everyone is subjected to the unintended consequences, all the while, the extremists that gathered the public support by causing outrage, and convincing them that the new laws will solve the problem, sit back and smile, because the scale keeps on tipping their way..


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## Kevin Cyr (Dec 28, 2012)

Is there any statistics of how and where most dog abuse comes from?

Trainers/Breeders?
Pet Owners?
Hunters?
Various Sport?
Game (fighting)
PPD?

Just curious....I tend to see it more in certain categories than others, but do realize it happens everywhere.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Kevin Cyr said:


> Is there any statistics of how and where most dog abuse comes from?
> 
> Trainers/Breeders?
> Pet Owners?
> ...


Not sure if there is such a data base per say but let your fingers walk through google and you will find alot. 

http://www.pet-abuse.com/
interesting site because you punch in a zip code and mile radius and it will bring up everything from hoarding to AC cases covering all animal species.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Sarah Platts said:


> Not sure if there is such a data base per say but let your fingers walk through google and you will find alot.
> 
> http://www.pet-abuse.com/
> interesting site because you punch in a zip code and mile radius and it will bring up everything from hoarding to AC cases covering all animal species.


Holey underwear Batman! That is one heck of a site. There's different countries listed and you can select clickable map and then for example if I select Alaska I can see the number of cases, location, title (abuse type), and names of the individuals involved, most appear to be sled dog related and something to do with cats.

http://www.pet-abuse.com/pages/cruelty_database.php

On the primary page of the database you can pare that data down further to an advanced search, then there's a statistics page. Heck they even have a state ranking list but it stops at 2010.

http://www.pet-abuse.com/pages/cruelty_database/statistics/state_ranking.php?year=2010&search=go


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## Erica Dalton (Jan 25, 2011)

Thomas Barriano said:


> OK, Lets define "abuse" in the context of making it a felony.
> To me e-collars and prongs and other training devises are NOT abusive. Any action that causes the death or permanent disfigurement is abuse. Give the district attorneys the option to prosecute as a misdemeanor or felony and the judges some options on sentencing. Four months for killing eight dogs is a travesty. Animal Control should investigate and issues summons
> NOT decide what level the person is charged.


This is very similar to how it works in my jurisdiction. I have the option of choosing a county or city resolution (some are petty offenses, some are misdemeanors), or a state statute (misdemeanor). If I feel it is necessary, I can meet with the DA's and talk about moving from a misdemeanor to a felony. I will actually be doing that next week in relation to a search warrant I executed, this morning. 


Not all of us are power-hungry tree-huggers whose sole purpose is to steal Fido from your yard. A lot of us understand probable cause and 4th amendment rights, and have a background in veterinary medicine so that we don't go off the deep end if we see a dog with a minor wound that a responsible owner is treating at home. 


While I would like to see strong penalties in some cases, I do not want to see such strict regulations that I would have to resign from my position due to my protection sport training being called abusive. I regularly use e-collars, prongs, muzzles, and a wide variety of training devices. So does my Captain, whose whole family does Schutzhund.

Sad to hear that some of you have had to deal with some very strange and crazy situations involving Animal Control. If you ever want to see the job done well, come out a do a ride along with me.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

I have been following Nitro's Law....

I have to say, The Detroit Lions probably have a better chance of winning a Superbowl.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Hi Erica,

There are a lot of AC and LE people involved in Schutzhund and Mondio Ring in Colorado. I don't know any of them that are the power hungry, tree hugging storm troopers that some people seem to have where they live. 





Erica Dalton said:


> This is very similar to how it works in my jurisdiction. I have the option of choosing a county or city resolution (some are petty offenses, some are misdemeanors), or a state statute (misdemeanor). If I feel it is necessary, I can meet with the DA's and talk about moving from a misdemeanor to a felony. I will actually be doing that next week in relation to a search warrant I executed, this morning.
> 
> 
> Not all of us are power-hungry tree-huggers whose sole purpose is to steal Fido from your yard. A lot of us understand probable cause and 4th amendment rights, and have a background in veterinary medicine so that we don't go off the deep end if we see a dog with a minor wound that a responsible owner is treating at home.
> ...


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Hi Erica,
> 
> There are a lot of AC and LE people involved in Schutzhund and Mondio Ring in Colorado. I don't know any of them that are the power hungry, tree hugging storm troopers that some people seem to have where they live.


I agree! The ones I met here are pretty down to earth dudes. This town is crawling with prison guards because we have so many prisons here. A couple of them live on my street. They are normal people too.


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Hi Erica,
> 
> There are a lot of AC and LE people involved in Schutzhund and Mondio Ring in Colorado. I don't know any of them that are the power hungry, tree hugging storm troopers that some people seem to have where they live.


Come to California for a visit. Plenty of them here.

Okay, well maybe that's a gimme.

Laura


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> Come to California for a visit. Plenty of them here.
> 
> Okay, well maybe that's a gimme.
> 
> Laura


 
I had a dog taken by AC for playing fetch off leash in my front yard. Never left my yard. When AC (and police...the neighbors said I had a vicious pit pull attacking kids or something) showed up, my dog bolted over to him and hit the ground on her back wiggling. Thats how she greeted people. Big lover. The AC officer still stuck her on the rabies collar (while she was on her back wiggling) and took her away. I got a dog at large fine, and had to go to court to get her back. That was in Cali. First time dealing with them there. 

In NV, I've never had a problem, and I know most of them in my area. They have common sense, and are actually intellegent. I did a lot of work for them (and in Cali too), rehabbing and rehoming pitties.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Laura and Brian

Maybe the problem is the kind of people that live in California?
Nice weather only goes so far when you have too many people and too many ass holes


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## Erica Dalton (Jan 25, 2011)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Hi Erica,
> 
> There are a lot of AC and LE people involved in Schutzhund and Mondio Ring in Colorado. I don't know any of them that are the power hungry, tree hugging storm troopers that some people seem to have where they live.


Well, we cover so many counties here that my agency is the largest in the state, and we're all on the same common sense page in terms of animal ownership and care. We are working really hard to move away from the dogcatcher image that is still associated with our line of work, as well as encouraging officers to pursue extensive training in parts of the job that they feel insecure about (aggressive dog handling, equine cases, etc.) so that our officers can roll on scene and assess the situation from a confident, well-trained and experienced point of view....as opposed to the example of the officer catchpoling a dog that was offering friendly, even submissive, signals (Brian McQuain's example).


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Common sense, education and training goes a long way in a lot of professions ;-)


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## Jeffrey Eggenberger (Jan 3, 2013)

It's kinda like capital punishment, a good idea for everyone but me. I just have a natural distrust of our judicial system and can see Dog abuse Felony turning back on me. Oh you did not give your dog the correct food, you used an "e-collar"??? Abuse! Negative reinforcement? Abuse!! We will be sleeping in the crate and the dog will be sleeping on the king sized bed.......

What happened to just being a good person? Why does it always come down to giving the local government more power over me?

I love my dog, but she is just a dog. If it came down to it, and my family was starving... she is food.

Be careful what you ask for.


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> There is a proposal in Ohio to make dog abuse a felony instead of a misdemeanor.
> http://www.nitrofoundation.com/
> 
> I support the idea and think it should happen in all 50 States.


Stupid idea.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Laura and Brian
> 
> Maybe the problem is the kind of people that live in California?
> Nice weather only goes so far when you have too many people and too many ass holes



Well, I'm "the kind of people who live in California." :lol: 

(This post adds about as much to the discussion as the two-word "stupid idea" post.  )


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

deleted post


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

deleted post


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Erica Dalton said:


> Well, we cover so many counties here that my agency is the largest in the state, and we're all on the same common sense page in terms of animal ownership and care. We are working really hard to move away from the dogcatcher image that is still associated with our line of work, as well as encouraging officers to pursue extensive training in parts of the job that they feel insecure about (aggressive dog handling, equine cases, etc.) so that our officers can roll on scene and assess the situation from a confident, well-trained and experienced point of view....as opposed to the example of the officer catchpoling a dog that was offering friendly, even submissive, signals (Brian McQuain's example).


This is heartening indeed. Who spearheaded this, or how did it get rolling?

_"We are working really hard to move away from the dogcatcher image that is still associated with our line of work, as well as encouraging officers to pursue extensive training in parts of the job that they feel insecure about (aggressive dog handling, equine cases, etc.) so that our officers can roll on scene and assess the situation from a confident, well-trained and experienced point of view."_


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

the "slippery slope" argument always applies .. who is going to be the decider of what is considered "abuse" ... Thomas be careful what you ask for my friend... these things sound great on their face but in reality can go wayyy wrong... I am against it! I have no faith in government to regulate anything relating to moral behaviors. 

Do I now how to watch over my shoulder or hide when I correct a dog for fear of being reported??


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Brian,

The legislature decides laws based on input from the voters.
Police and Animal Control investigate and report to the District Attorney (or Count Prosecutor etc.) that decide how and what to charge. Then give the judges discretion on sentencing.

Appropriately charging people that kill or injured dogs without over charging everyone else is no more of a "slippery slope" then any other serious crime


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Brian,
> 
> The legislature decides laws based on input from the voters.
> Police and Animal Control investigate and report to the District Attorney (or Count Prosecutor etc.) that decide how and what to charge. Then give the judges discretion on sentencing.
> ...


Thomas the slippery slope comes into play when laws are passed, having little to do with serious crime...

If you think all laws are passed based on the input from the majority of the voters, yer in denial.

Many laws are passed to generate money, or to achieve other goals of policticians with agenda's, with little support from the voters...

the slippery slope occurs when people like the ones that are behind the Nitro's Law movement, get one law passed to get the foothold, and then expand it, which is their true goal, as stated on their website.

The slipperly slope also comes into play when laws have initended usage, due to unclear wording, and also befall many types of selective prosecution...


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I don't know why there is so much faith in prosecuting attorneys. I once had one tell me that a little dog would never offensively attack a bigger dog despite multiple witness statments to the contrary. Each individual brings their own subjective bias to their interpretation of events and laws. Here you have an AC person who is interested in furher training and behaviorist knowledge. How many aren't and how many departments have the money to invest to properly train them? Your average dog person spends years and a whole lot of time and money learning to read and understand dogs. Huge slippery slope. There are enough laws on the books. Keep it up and PETA will get their wish for dog guardians instead of owners.

T


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

T, I'd be willing to bet that if you stuffed a JRT down that prosecuting attorney's shorts he'd change his mind.


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## eric squires (Oct 16, 2008)

I am dismayed to hear of the problems some of you have had to deal with as to Animal Control agencies in your areas. I can only tell you as a ACO with my agency that i not how it is done here. We treat people as we want to be treated and use better judgement. Most of the officers i work with are or have working dog backgrounds. My supervisor runs the local S&R team. All of this being said if you get to see some of the stuff i do i a regular basis you would understand the need for animal cruelty laws and support a felony abuse law. We had a case years ago here in our state my county that got animal abuse felony added to the books. A man tied his wife's dog to the train tracks as a substitute for her. The dog was run over by the train and died a slow death. Many times in domestic situtations the animals are abused to gain power over another indiviual. I am not stating that is the case with the Ohio situation that started this thread but just a real example as to why these laws need to be on the books.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

eric squires said:


> I am dismayed to hear of the problems some of you have had to deal with as to Animal Control agencies in your areas. I can only tell you as a ACO with my agency that i not how it is done here. We treat people as we want to be treated and use better judgement. Most of the officers i work with are or have working dog backgrounds. My supervisor runs the local S&R team. All of this being said if you get to see some of the stuff i do i a regular basis you would understand the need for animal cruelty laws and support a felony abuse law. We had a case years ago here in our state my county that got animal abuse felony added to the books. A man tied his wife's dog to the train tracks as a substitute for her. The dog was run over by the train and died a slow death. Many times in domestic situtations the animals are abused to gain power over another indiviual. I am not stating that is the case with the Ohio situation that started this thread but just a real example as to why these laws need to be on the books.


+1

I'm just glad we don't have out of control AC officers in Colorado.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Thomas Barriano said:


> +1
> 
> I'm just glad we don't have out of control AC officers in Colorado.


I'm willing to go out on a limb and say that I think location has much to do with it. Living in the city produces one type of AC guy over one who's lived in the country or dealt with a wide range of animal usage. Not everyone is equally versed or comfortable because so much depends on the life experiences of the individual ACO. Some are unhappy if the dog shows any ribs while others are comfortable with dogs in "field condition". One told me that if he ran his hand down a dog's barrel and could feel ribs the animal was underfed.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

I guess the biggest fear when it comes to laws like this is that abuse in the eye of the beholder. What one might consider abuse, another might not. 

As people who train working dogs we have pretty much all been confonted by people who had the nerve to tell us we were being abusive to our dogs. To have that fear come back now that this law might be in the making is a very real thing. To many people out there still reffer to their dogs as children and treat them as such... and in turn expect people like us to treat our dogs as they treat theirs... which to be honest, in my eyes would be abusive to the dog since it's not a human, but a dog and should be treated with dogworthy respect...not some trumped up idea of humanized dog treatment. 

JMO *shrugs*


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## catherine hardigan (Oct 12, 2009)

eric squires said:


> I am dismayed to hear of the problems some of you have had to deal with as to Animal Control agencies in your areas. I can only tell you as a ACO with my agency that i not how it is done here. We treat people as we want to be treated and use better judgement. Most of the officers i work with are or have working dog backgrounds. My supervisor runs the local S&R team. All of this being said if you get to see some of the stuff i do i a regular basis you would understand the need for animal cruelty laws and support a felony abuse law. We had a case years ago here in our state my county that got animal abuse felony added to the books. A man tied his wife's dog to the train tracks as a substitute for her. The dog was run over by the train and died a slow death. Many times in domestic situtations the animals are abused to gain power over another indiviual. I am not stating that is the case with the Ohio situation that started this thread but just a real example as to why these laws need to be on the books.


I have had only positive interactions with my county's ACO's. They have always been professional and very reasonable.


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## eric squires (Oct 16, 2008)

The threshold for an act of abuse to become a felony is significantly higher than a misdemeanor as it should be. What it comes down to in many cases is the intent of the person committing the act. The final say always rests in the hands of the courts not the charging officer so there are multiple layers between the person being charged and being convicted. There will always be officers that do not agree or understand the sport dog community and how we do things. It is partly up to us as owners to try to educate them as well as to why we do things the way we do. A few overzealous misdirected officers do make the entire rest of us crazy as well. Your voices are not heard as often to those who make the laws and rules as other groups. Make yourselves heard in your communities when you have issues.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

eric squires said:


> The threshold for an act of abuse to become a felony is significantly higher than a misdemeanor as it should be. What it comes down to in many cases is the intent of the person committing the act. The final say always rests in the hands of the courts not the charging officer so there are multiple layers between the person being charged and being convicted. There will always be officers that do not agree or understand the sport dog community and how we do things. It is partly up to us as owners to try to educate them as well as to why we do things the way we do. A few overzealous misdirected officers do make the entire rest of us crazy as well. Your voices are not heard as often to those who make the laws and rules as other groups. Make yourselves heard in your communities when you have issues.


not only in the sport dog community, but also the hunting and farming communities...or other people that have dogs for uses, other than pets.

some people live harder lives than others, and therefore their animals also live harder lives..

ever watch Yukon Men or any of the other Alaskan reality TV shows? shyt if the people that made and enforced the laws here in the suburbs, made the laws up there, all those guys would be in prison, even though they need the dogs to survive up there...

.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> not only in the sport dog community, but also the hunting and farming communities...or other people that have dogs for uses, other than pets.
> 
> some people live harder lives than others, and therefore their animals also live harder lives..
> 
> ...


The NRA and hunting folks have a powerful lobby where animal laws are concerned. Notice how they always get a pass or exemption.

T


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> The NRA and hunting folks have a powerful lobby where animal laws are concerned. Notice how they always get a pass or exemption.
> 
> T


considering the other powerful lobbying groups out there, I am thankful that the NRA is around..personally.


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## Erica Dalton (Jan 25, 2011)

Connie Sutherland said:


> This is heartening indeed. Who spearheaded this, or how did it get rolling?



Well, our current command staff got the ball rolling, and those of us in supervisory roles are committed to this outlook, as well. We are first and foremost dedicated to public safety, and we take dangerous and aggressive dog cases seriously - but on a case-by-case basis, too. Every situation is different and we understand and investigate accordingly.

Yes, we are also dedicated to the welfare of animals, but none of us are PETA supporters. I do not want to see any of our jurisdictions turned into communities where animals are simply replacement children, and the laws read as such. I do, however, think that animals need to be protected from gross neglect and cruelty. 

Lastly, we are also here for animal rescue. And I don't mean fostering and saving sad puppies seen in commercials on Animal Planet. I mean going into disaster areas and pulling pets from homes in evacuation zones that owners weren't able to return to to retrieve their animals before the evac notice came down. We're also starting to add tactical low-angle/high-angle rescue, too. 

I am reminded of a saying that is popular in the equine community - "any tool is abusive in the wrong hands." Are prong collars inherently evil? Of course not. But, if I see someone tying their dog out while wearing one, I will stop and educate the owner on a better way to keep their dog contained and safe. Should e-collars be banned? Of course not, but can someone use one in a manner that is harmful to a dog? Sure. 

Should some animal abuse cases be treated as felonies? Absolutely. The key is to have well-trained, professional and appropriate staff in place to investigate each situation individually. *That *is the problem that I have seen and heard of in other areas. And that is a hard thing to fix.


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> The NRA and hunting folks have a powerful lobby where animal laws are concerned. Notice how they always get a pass or exemption.
> 
> T


I fully support NRA. Everyone, join NRA if you are not already a member!


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

http://www.nationalgunrights.org/

is a better choice then the NRA, which is making too many compromises IMO


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

joby becker said:


> considering the other powerful lobbying groups out there, i am thankful that the nra is around..personally.


no shit


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> http://www.nationalgunrights.org/
> 
> is a better choice then the NRA, which is making too many compromises IMO



I support them too.


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## Amber Scott Dyer (Oct 30, 2006)

location has a LOT to do with AC. 

I used to work at a clinic in the city, kinda close to a bad area. Those officers had their hands full. We had a hard time getting them to pursue charges for dogs that had ten pound tumors hanging off their bodies and collars completely grown into their skin from being tied out on them as puppies and left that way. Those dogs were even returned to the owners if they paid for their veterinary care. 

The clinic I work for now is in an affluent area - and I've seen AC press charges because a dog had nasty periodontal disease and a yeasty skin condition. don't get me wrong, I would consider that neglect - but the dog in a question was an ancient, decrepit little Chihuahua that lived with a little old lady that fed him table scraps and coddled him. I don't think that constitutes the kind of abuse and neglect that should be AC's business. They came out to my ex husband's house years ago because we had an old diabetic pug who developed cataracts and started to lose weight when her diabetes wasn't well controlled anymore. She looked thin and sickly near the end, sure - but even after he showed them her insulin and glucometer, we had to provide them veterinary records to show that it wasn't neglect. the officers here write twice as many citations as our neighboring county - and it's a much smaller area.


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## Jeffrey Eggenberger (Jan 3, 2013)

eric squires said:


> The threshold for an act of abuse to become a felony is significantly higher than a misdemeanor as it should be. What it comes down to in many cases is the intent of the person committing the act. The final say always rests in the hands of the courts not the charging officer so there are multiple layers between the person being charged and being convicted. There will always be officers that do not agree or understand the sport dog community and how we do things. It is partly up to us as owners to try to educate them as well as to why we do things the way we do. A few overzealous misdirected officers do make the entire rest of us crazy as well. Your voices are not heard as often to those who make the laws and rules as other groups. Make yourselves heard in your communities when you have issues.


Unfortunatly, there are no "Layers" between the court and you. Prosecuters get advanced by getting convictions, not by being fair, not by enforcing truth, or by doing the right thing. I am then between the Prosecuting attorney and his raise, his appointment to the bench, to his paycheck. As long as this is true, I have no faith in the American Judicial System.


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## Meg O'Donovan (Aug 20, 2012)

This is an older article, but it makes some points about linkage between animal abuse as a "gateway" to human abuse/violent crime. You'll need to read well beyond the initial example to see where the linkage is explained, especially in regards to domestic violence, and "power-and-control" crimes. 

The animal abuse is a red flag for what may come later.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/13/magazine/13dogfighting-t.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

that was a very detailed article....TX for posting

the very last part of that article struck a chord with me, and i've posted about this before. 

i very often see little kids who are with their parents be allowed to run down pigeons and make mock lunges at feral cats in parks and keep a big smile on their face all the time. even tho pigeons and feral cats can be a real pita, i make it a point to get in those kids faces, and it's very easy when i'm out with my dog. 

i don't try and give them any abuse lectures, i just use my dog ... i tell them how "big" they are and how small that pigeon is and how much they are scaring it ... .... then i take a few fast steps towards them with my dog, and stop and say : 

"see how big my dog is and how little you are ?" "makes you feel just like that pigeon....do you like THAT ?"

gives them a quick clear dose of reality and embarrasses the heck out of their stupid parents as they gather their brat up and slink off with me smiling at them, but i think it gets thru to the kids even clearer..... i've seen the same kids again and they act totally different, and then i let them meet my dog and have a good time 

maybe that hasn't prevented a future animal abuser, but i really don't care. it's the right thing to do and that's all you CAN do sometimes


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

rick smith said:


> that was a very detailed article....TX for posting
> 
> the very last part of that article struck a chord with me, and i've posted about this before.
> 
> ...


 
In a previous example you took it upon yourself to reduce fear of dogs. Here you use your's and the dog's pressure to induce/capitalize on fear to get the kids to empathize with the birds.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> In a previous example you took it upon yourself to reduce fear of dogs. Here you use your's and the dog's pressure to induce/capitalize on fear to get the kids to empathize with the birds.


Interesting observation Terrasita. Earlier today a thought provoking article was posted directly related to the topic, maybe we can stay on track with that instead? It'd be a shame to derail this thread in such a manner. It's an important issue regardless of what side of the fence anyone is on.

I'm not looking for a response to this post but if you are inclined to feel free to PM me.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

deleted O.T. post


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

As for the article, doesn't support increased laws. Animaly cruelty and kids is usually the symptom of something else and that's what you need to look at if you want to save the kid and society. I recently spectated at a dog training seminar and watched a trainer teach a 7-8 year old how to inflict punishment to a dog. The look on my face must have been transparent because she started to explain why she was doing it. But really it was the kid's demeanor that left the greatest impression. He had no bond or regard for that dog. It was a tool of some sort. Here was something that someone was teaching the kid to do which had I seen my son doing that he would have hurt. The lesson for me was no respect for the animal or regard with what was being stated to a child of that age. As for Rick's example, did he teach them empathy or that he had the greater power and was in a position of control. He is not th parent of those children and he had no right to do what he did. Instead of scaring kids with a dog, maybe he should have talked directly to the parent. I talk to kids all the time and they have a capabiity of understanding concepts without resorting to an eye for an eye. Hopefully when these grow up they won't think to get a big dog that they can scare people with so they can be in the position of power and control and later extend that to serial killing of humans.

T


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> As for the article, doesn't support increased laws. Animaly cruelty and kids is usually the symptom of something else and that's what you need to look at if you want to save the kid and society. I recently spectated at a dog training seminar and watched a trainer teach a 7-8 year old how to inflict punishment to a dog. The look on my face must have been transparent because she started to explain why she was doing it. But really it was the kid's demeanor that left the greatest impression. He had no bond or regard for that dog. It was a tool of some sort. Here was something that someone was teaching the kid to do which had I seen my son doing that he would have hurt. The lesson for me was no respect for the animal or regard with what was being stated to a child of that age. As for Rick's example, did he teach them empathy or that he had the greater power and was in a position of control. He is not th parent of those children and he had no right to do what he did. Instead of scaring kids with a dog, maybe he should have talked directly to the parent. I talk to kids all the time and they have a capabiity of understanding concepts without resorting to an eye for an eye. Hopefully when these grow up they won't think to get a big dog that they can scare people with so they can be in the position of power and control and later extend that to serial killing of humans.


in dog training, Punishment is a part of life, even in YOUR household as you have previously admitted. in many programs, dog does not comply he is punished, either with + or - P still punishment.

not everyone feels hurt for using punishment in thier training...

for many people, dogs are tools. not everyone owns a dog becuase they want to have a pet. that is not to infer that people are not often fond of thier tools.

I do agree that Rick seems to take a much larger unsolicited interest in other peoples children than anyone I have come accross.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Deleted O.T. post


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Deleted O.T. post


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> in dog training, Punishment is a part of life, even in YOUR household as you have previously admitted. in many programs, dog does not comply he is punished, either with + or - P still punishment.
> 
> not everyone feels hurt for using punishment in thier training...
> 
> ...


 
Gee Joby, who feels hurt for using punishment in their training? As far as dogs being tools, that's an interesting statement given the article cited and how we want to raise children regarding their perception of animals. 

T


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