# Bitework: collar vs harness



## Gerald Guay

Had a discussion with our vet recently and she said that she has seen more that one working dog (bitework trained) with various types of minor to major post trauma issues due to recent or previous collar induced neck injuries. She highly recommends the use of a harness vs a collar for bite development work. 

Would like to hear your thoughts on this.

GG


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## Tiago Fontes

Gerald Guay said:


> Had a discussion with our vet recently and she said that she has seen more that one working dog (bitework trained) with various types of minor to major post trauma issues due to recent or previous collar induced neck injuries. She highly recommends the use of a harness vs a collar for bite development work.
> 
> Would like to hear your thoughts on this.
> 
> GG



I've never experienced it.


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## Gillian Schuler

Neither have I. 

I saw some dogs with harness but the majority used the collar. I asked our helper and he just grinned and said it was not necessary to use a harness.

When you think of the times the dog has protection training in a week. Once the dog is working well, I only go once a week, then I can't see any harm. More harm can bring the yanking back on a chain collar, i.e. "fur saver" I think you call it but even this in my mind cannot cause nec injuries.

Maybe the injuries lie elsewhere.


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## Kristian Taves

I've had chronic throat problems with one of my dogs. She did not use a harness. Now I always use a harness if the dog is to be back-tied. I do not see a downside to the use of a harness.


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## Gerald Guay

Forgot to mention; apparently most of the time the damage shows up later in life as the dog ages.


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## susan tuck

I had a young dog who used to routinely burst blood vessels in his eyes pulling against a wide leather agitation collar, so I switched to a harness with that pup and all subsequent pups.


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## lannie dulin

harness has multiple benefits. 
1)It allows the dog to pull and drive harder into the bite during drag in. 
2)It easier to breath and thus you can do more work in one session. 
3)It creates an equipment que for the dog to know when he's going to bitework. 
4) If you've done any leash pressure or opposition leash pressure work on a dog the harrensee does not conflict with that training the way a working collar would. 
5) Every notable trainer I've been lucky enough to train with has said, "use a harness" (for the above reasons).


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## Gillian Schuler

lannie dulin said:


> harness has multiple benefits.
> 1)It allows the dog to pull and drive harder into the bite during drag in.
> 2)It easier to breath and thus you can do more work in one session.
> 3)It creates an equipment que for the dog to know when he's going to bitework.
> 4) If you've done any leash pressure or opposition leash pressure work on a dog the harrensee does not conflict with that training the way a working collar would.
> 5) Every notable trainer I've been lucky enough to train with has said, "use a harness" (for the above reasons).


I cannot subscribe to any of these points. The weakest one is that the it is a cue for the dog to know he's going to bitework. :-\"

How would you know that the short time that a dog does protection work (1-2 times a week) is more injurious than leash pressure work on a dog?? And, why leash pressure work?? Probably much longer in use than in protection work. 

The dog is only on the leash for a short time - afterwards he works free.

Notable trainers?? I've worked with many a notable trainer, one of which was Ronny van den Berg and he doesn't use a harness.


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## Meg O'Donovan

Gerald Guay said:


> Forgot to mention; apparently most of the time the damage shows up later in life as the dog ages.


If you have more specific details on the types of damage that arise from dogs straining on collars, please provide them? E.g. spine? thryroid? I don't know much about this but would like to know more. Thanks.


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## Denise King

Everyone in my Kubrick uses a harness!
Denise


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## mel boschwitz

Meg O'Donovan said:


> If you have more specific details on the types of damage that arise from dogs straining on collars, please provide them? E.g. spine? thryroid? I don't know much about this but would like to know more. Thanks.


I have read a few articles about damage to the neck from hard pulling dogs. Vertebral problems most commonly. Also read an article how a lot of hard pulling dogs had broken hyoid bones when an autopsy was done, as compared to dogs who didn't pull hard. The handlers did say they hadn't noticed any obvious changes in the dogs work, but you know how a driven dog can work thru pain. 

The articles were in relation to dogs being walked on lead, and I don't work bite dogs so I don't know how a dog pulls for bite work as compared to a dog pulling hard on lead, but I imagine there are some similarities.


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## Phil Dodson

I have worked and trained PSD's for 34 years and have never used a harness except to track and can not recall 1 dog suffering any injuries or after effects from using a collar.


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## John Wolf

There are pros and cons of both and I use both. I participate in IPO so that is my perspective. 

With the harness, I feel like the dog can bark better because he is not pulling and winding himself. However, the dog is also able to "swim" in the harness. You have more control over the dog's behavior with a collar.

With puppies, I use a harness. I will also use a harness on a more experienced dog if it is on a back-tie. 

I use the wide agitation collar for any sort of table or "defense" work.


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## Jay Quinn

there is no reason you can't have both on the dog... change what the leash is clipped to depending on what you are working on... or leave the leash clipped to a harness and control the dog with the collar by hand when needed... they both have their advantages and disadvantages and you need to find what works for you and your dog...

i bought an expensive military-style vest for one of my dogs, for multiple different reasons... and most of the time at work and training his leash would be clipped to his vest... but i always had a pinch collar on him as well, usually always one that i had modified and wrapped up the chain part with cloth so i could use it as a handle, and it no longer constricted... so when i really needed close control of him (no matter how intensely he might be going off at something) i would just hang onto the pinch collar - two fingers was enough, and i kept the rest of his leash gathered in my hand, so i could let go of the pinchy and have him at the end of the leash again immediately if required...


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## Catherine Gervin

Jay Quinn said:


> there is no reason you can't have both on the dog... change what the leash is clipped to depending on what you are working on... or leave the leash clipped to a harness and control the dog with the collar by hand when needed... they both have their advantages and disadvantages and you need to find what works for you and your dog...
> 
> i bought an expensive military-style vest for one of my dogs, for multiple different reasons... and most of the time at work and training his leash would be clipped to his vest... but i always had a pinch collar on him as well, usually always one that i had modified and wrapped up the chain part with cloth so i could use it as a handle, and it no longer constricted... so when i really needed close control of him (no matter how intensely he might be going off at something) i would just hang onto the pinch collar - two fingers was enough, and i kept the rest of his leash gathered in my hand, so i could let go of the pinchy and have him at the end of the leash again immediately if required...


i totally agree with your entire post here--you can use, and receive benefits from both. i have found that a harness gives a dog more confidence and more play in bindings, the "swim" you describe it perfectly, and that having a collar on as well for whatever/whenever you might need it is the answer.
if i may ask, where did you get your military-grade harness? i am searching for one for my GSD, and my husband is in the Army, so i keep hoping he'll source one out for me, but he is insanely busy and it's not at the top of his priorities...


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## Tiago Fontes

John Wolf said:


> There are pros and cons of both and I use both. I participate in IPO so that is my perspective.
> 
> With the harness, I feel like the dog can bark better because he is not pulling and winding himself. However, the dog is also able to "swim" in the harness. You have more control over the dog's behavior with a collar.
> 
> With puppies, I use a harness. I will also use a harness on a more experienced dog if it is on a back-tie.
> 
> I use the wide agitation collar for any sort of table or "defense" work.



Exactly what we do here.


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## lannie dulin

Gillian Schuler said:


> I cannot subscribe to any of these points. The weakest one is that the it is a cue for the dog to know he's going to bitework. :-\"
> 
> How would you know that the short time that a dog does protection work (1-2 times a week) is more injurious than leash pressure work on a dog?? And, why leash pressure work?? Probably much longer in use than in protection work.
> 
> The dog is only on the leash for a short time - afterwards he works free.
> 
> Notable trainers?? I've worked with many a notable trainer, one of which was Ronny van den Berg and he doesn't use a harness.


I don't think you know what leash pressure is. You should look it up.


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## jack van strien

The first time i saw a harness being used in bitework was in France,so i got one also.
Really nice piece of craftmanship and it looked very strong,the first time i backtied my pup to it it took him about 3 minutes to chew his way out of it.If anyone would like a few pieces of harness,i still have it.Question to myself,why do you still have it?
On a more serious note i was always under the impression a collar makes a young dog stronger,builds up his stamina and builds up his neck muscles.


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## Catherine Gervin

jack van strien said:


> The first time i saw a harness being used in bitework was in France,so i got one also.
> Really nice piece of craftmanship and it looked very strong,the first time i backtied my pup to it it took him about 3 minutes to chew his way out of it.If anyone would like a few pieces of harness,i still have it.Question to myself,why do you still have it?
> On a more serious note i was always under the impression a collar makes a young dog stronger,builds up his stamina and builds up his neck muscles.


you still have it because it was expensive and because you love that dog.
or, at least, that is why is still have the bejewelled and bespiked leather collar that my APBT chewed in half somehow while she was in the bath and i thought she was mouthing suds...nope. pricey collar destroyed. but i have it hanging on my wall because it's still a pretty collar and because that dog is dead now and i still love and miss her.
but then, that's just me.


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## Jay Quinn

Catherine Gervin said:


> if i may ask, where did you get your military-grade harness?


have PM'd you : )


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## Catherine Gervin

thanx for this bigtime!


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## Gillian Schuler

Phil Dodson said:


> I have worked and trained PSD's for 34 years and have never used a harness except to track and can not recall 1 dog suffering any injuries or after effects from using a collar.


I must admit in "barbarian" Europe where the harness is rarely used for protection work, have also never heard of any injuries from using a collar.

Forgive me, but just how long is the harness used? When the dog is biting well on a lead, etc. the lead is not used, i.e. the harness.

Through "hearsay" I heard that the blunt prongs of the pinch collar often used daily, can cause more injuries to the inner side of the neck.

Positive "hearsays" have a much shorter journey than negative ones, whatever the subject.


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## Gillian Schuler

Gillian Schuler said:


> I must admit in "barbarian" Europe where the harness is rarely used for protection work, have also never heard of any injuries from using a collar.
> 
> Forgive me, but just how long is the harness used? When the dog is biting well on a lead, etc. the lead is not used, i.e. the harness.
> 
> Through "hearsay" I heard that the blunt prongs of the pinch collar often used daily, can cause more injuries to the inner side of the neck.
> 
> Positive "hearsays" have a much shorter journey than negative ones, whatever the subject.


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## susan tuck

Gillian Schuler said:


> I must admit in "barbarian" Europe where the harness is rarely used for protection work, have also never heard of any injuries from using a collar.
> 
> Forgive me, but just how long is the harness used? When the dog is biting well on a lead, etc. the lead is not used, i.e. the harness.
> 
> Through "hearsay" I heard that the blunt prongs of the pinch collar often used daily, can cause more injuries to the inner side of the neck.
> 
> Positive "hearsays" have a much shorter journey than negative ones, whatever the subject.


my friend...do I detect a note of sarcasm...perhaps a hint of derision too?

I think like many things, it's not a matter of right or wrong, just a matter of personal preference, what you're comfortable with, and what you think is of the best benefit for the dog in front of you. 

Lots of people in the states and else where use harnesses with pups during agitation, and with older dogs too, though I will say, I've never heard the reason being possible damage to the dog from the collar, not saying it isn't so, just saying I'm not aware of it. With my own, I didn't switch because I was worried about permanent damage, I just didn't like the dogs eyes bleeding, and from there I became more comfortable with the harness, which is why I used it on all my subsequent pups. I start with the harness and eventually there's a whole host of accoutrement on my dog, from harness to pinch to ecollar to fursaver. Then eventually just fur saver and ecollar. That said, we also use the harness on adult dogs on the table, but not everyone does, and that's OK too. 

http://youtu.be/pLEpzd3TeNE 

http://youtu.be/MqE4jT297xU

http://youtu.be/eFO_0iCikaw

http://youtu.be/tQT6OQi0nxM

http://youtu.be/7i4bjEblfUY

http://youtu.be/dLdLdDn-O2o

http://youtu.be/Fryf1bobgnM

http://youtu.be/s9_XZBfQAbE

http://youtu.be/TbBhVQ6LDgY


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## Brian Reynolds

lannie dulin said:


> harness has multiple benefits.
> 1)It allows the dog to pull and drive harder into the bite during drag in.
> 2)It easier to breath and thus you can do more work in one session.
> 3)It creates an equipment que for the dog to know when he's going to bitework.
> 4) If you've done any leash pressure or opposition leash pressure work on a dog the harrensee does not conflict with that training the way a working collar would.
> 5) Every notable trainer I've been lucky enough to train with has said, "use a harness" (for the above reasons).


Agree. Please consider that (a) I am a neophyte dog trainer, (b) I train for mondioring, and (c) I have titled only one dog. So please consider the context. Here is what worked for me and my dog. 

I don’t see collar/harness for bitework as either/or, but rather BOTH. In our training we use both a collar and harness when teaching bitework, but for different reasons. To understand where I am coming from, I believe encouraging bitework using a harness almost to be opposite in concept to that of leash (collar) pressure. 

My purpose in teaching leash pressure is for the dog to respond to the negative stimulus (pressure on the dog from the collar via the leash) by moving away from the pressure to turn off the negative stimulus (mostly negative reinforcement and some positive punishment). I can then combine the leash/collar (negative reinforcement/ pos pun) with a reward (food or click - positive reinforcement) to help the dog learn to turn off the pressure from the leash. 

For bitework in mondioring, I want the dog moving and biting forward into the deocy. So we use both a collar, initially a prong with a short lead, and the harness. If necessary, the collar can be used to correct (positive punishment when he takes cheap bites - or negative reinforcement/pos punish to encourage the out - pull towards the decoy so the dog pulls away to out). 

With the harness, the dog learns that if he pulls against the harness and tries to get the decoy, he often is rewarded with a bite (positive reinforcement): pulling back on the harness causes the dog to pull forward on the harness, toward the decoy and away from the handler, to get the bite (positive reinforcement). There is nothing “negative” (reinforcement or punishment) in using the harness -- it does not inhibit or constrict his breath or blood or cause any pain; it simply assists me in stopping the dog from moving forward. The dog learns to pull against the harness to get more of a bite, which also encourages a pushing-in bite that I prefer. The harness encourages the bite; the collar/leash can be used for control. 

These concepts are not novel, but are what I used and worked for me and my dog. 

I have seen and heard dogs with tracheal damage -- whatever might have been the cause -- and it is something I will not tolerate with my dog. I have also seen retinal petechiae and hemorrhage from dogs being hung up and choked off the bite; also something I will not tolerate with my dog. 

Anyway, this question made me think about how a collar vs. a harness would affect me. If I was attached to something stationary or difficult to move, and somebody told me “hey go get that thing” or “go get that bad guy,” I would much prefer a backpack-style harness that didn’t restrict the breathing and blood to my brain, rather than a collar that would obviously constrict both my blood and breath. 

For those who use only a collar to teach bitework,what do you see as the benefit? Just a beginner’s $.02 worth of thoughts and a question. I am new am new and trying to learn. 

Thank you.
-br


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## Tiago Fontes

susan tuck said:


> my friend...do I detect a note of sarcasm...perhaps a hint of derision too?
> 
> I think like many things, it's not a matter of right or wrong, just a matter of personal preference, what you're comfortable with, and what you think is of the best benefit for the dog in front of you.
> 
> Lots of people in the states and else where use harnesses with pups during agitation, and with older dogs too, though I will say, I've never heard the reason being possible damage to the dog from the collar, not saying it isn't so, just saying I'm not aware of it. With my own, I didn't switch because I was worried about permanent damage, I just didn't like the dogs eyes bleeding, and from there I became more comfortable with the harness, which is why I used it on all my subsequent pups. I start with the harness and eventually there's a whole host of accoutrement on my dog, from harness to pinch to ecollar to fursaver. Then eventually just fur saver and ecollar. That said, we also use the harness on adult dogs on the table, but not everyone does, and that's OK too.
> 
> http://youtu.be/pLEpzd3TeNE
> 
> http://youtu.be/MqE4jT297xU
> 
> http://youtu.be/eFO_0iCikaw
> 
> http://youtu.be/tQT6OQi0nxM
> 
> http://youtu.be/7i4bjEblfUY
> 
> http://youtu.be/dLdLdDn-O2o
> 
> http://youtu.be/Fryf1bobgnM
> 
> http://youtu.be/s9_XZBfQAbE
> 
> http://youtu.be/TbBhVQ6LDgY



Just a clarification... the first two videos you posted, the dog, although wearing a harness, is being handled by a lead around its thighs... 


Regards


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## susan tuck

Tiago Fontes said:


> Just a clarification... the first two videos you posted, the dog, although wearing a harness, is being handled by a lead around its thighs...
> 
> 
> Regards


Yes, in the first video, my point is the dog has a harness on, I'm pretty sure it has been used in his training, not as a fashion statement!!! 
\\/\\/ Here is another video of Kuno with harness being utilized http://youtu.be/fqqOkpotty4

But the second video I originally posted is a 12 week Malinois and they are using the harness.


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## Tiago Fontes

susan tuck said:


> Yes, but my point is the dog has a harness on, I'm pretty sure it has been used in his training, not as a fashion statement!!!
> 
> \\/\\/



Yes, I got your point... was just knit picking... Busy day and I'm a little bit crabby. 

Sorry for that.


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## Gillian Schuler

susan tuck said:


> my friend...do I detect a note of sarcasm...perhaps a hint of derision too?
> 
> I think like many things, it's not a matter of right or wrong, just a matter of personal preference, what you're comfortable with, and what you think is of the best benefit for the dog in front of you.
> 
> Lots of people in the states and else where use harnesses with pups during agitation, and with older dogs too, though I will say, I've never heard the reason being possible damage to the dog from the collar, not saying it isn't so, just saying I'm not aware of it. With my own, I didn't switch because I was worried about permanent damage, I just didn't like the dogs eyes bleeding, and from there I became more comfortable with the harness, which is why I used it on all my subsequent pups. I start with the harness and eventually there's a whole host of accoutrement on my dog, from harness to pinch to ecollar to fursaver. Then eventually just fur saver and ecollar. That said, we also use the harness on adult dogs on the table, but not everyone does, and that's OK too.
> 
> http://youtu.be/pLEpzd3TeNE
> 
> http://youtu.be/MqE4jT297xU
> 
> http://youtu.be/eFO_0iCikaw
> 
> http://youtu.be/tQT6OQi0nxM
> 
> http://youtu.be/7i4bjEblfUY
> 
> http://youtu.be/dLdLdDn-O2o
> 
> http://youtu.be/Fryf1bobgnM
> 
> http://youtu.be/s9_XZBfQAbE
> 
> http://youtu.be/TbBhVQ6LDgY


 Yes, my friend you did note a slight sarcasm but it was not seriously meant. Derision, definitely not.

I was astonished that so many handlers use harnesses. I don't see them being used much for protection work over here and I have trained in Switzerland, Germany and with a Belgian helper.

I must honestly say that when I took my 9 month old "pup" for his first protection lesson (I waited until our breeder was able to come to Zürich on a regular basis) if the dog had been on a harness I would have looked like Mary Poppins flying behind him. After not showing much interest in bitework, he charged forward and I had a devil of a job to hold the lead. The breeder / helper was surprised but reacted accordingly and changed the young dog sleeve for an adult one.

I am not being sarky but often I see dogs on a harness over here who bite but are not strong biters that pull like the devil to get at the helper.

No one commented on the fact that once the dog bites well with force, obeys the commands, etc. we do not use the lead so it is only for a short time maybe once or twice a week that the dog would have the collar on. The exception would be if we were to go to a new helper who most often wants to see the dog bite on a lead first.

I do not sneer at handlers using harnesses. Each to his own.


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## susan tuck

Gillian Schuler said:


> Yes, my friend you did note a slight sarcasm but it was not seriously meant. Derision, definitely not.
> 
> I was astonished that so many handlers use harnesses. I don't see them being used much for protection work over here and I have trained in Switzerland, Germany and with a Belgian helper.
> 
> I must honestly say that when I took my 9 month old "pup" for his first protection lesson (I waited until our breeder was able to come to Zürich on a regular basis) if the dog had been on a harness I would have looked like Mary Poppins flying behind him. After not showing much interest in bitework, he charged forward and I had a devil of a job to hold the lead. The breeder / helper was surprised but reacted accordingly and changed the young dog sleeve for an adult one.
> 
> * I am not being sarky but often I see dogs on a harness over here who bite but are not strong biters that pull like the devil to get at the helper.*
> 
> No one commented on the fact that once the dog bites well with force, obeys the commands, etc. we do not use the lead so it is only for a short time maybe once or twice a week that the dog would have the collar on. The exception would be if we were to go to a new helper who most often wants to see the dog bite on a lead first.
> 
> I do not sneer at handlers using harnesses. Each to his own.


um yeah...about that....here's some real harnessed power for you:

http://youtu.be/RMUPLONhI4c

YIKES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:razz::razz::razz:


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## Kadi Thingvall

When the dog is going to be pulling into a bite, especially if it's on a bungee, I use a harness.

When I want to control the dogs head more, for things like going into the blind for a bark and hold, I use a collar. 

When pulling, I want the dog pulling with it's body, not just it's neck. In addition, if the dog is pulling in it's in part for targeting work, and I want the dogs head/neck free to turn the correct way (leg bites). Could I put the dog on a collar and probably help force it to turn it's head the correct way, yes. But I prefer the dog learn to do it on it's own, through timing on both my part and the decoys part. When doing bungee work, if the dog is going to hit the end of the bungee and not get a grip, I do NOT want all that force on just the dogs neck. I have to find the photo series, but somewhere I have a set of photos showing what happened when a dog on a bungee hit the end, without getting a bite, and was flipped end over end backwards. If we are just slowing the dog down on a send by having it pull a weight, I still want it pulling with it's body, leaving it's head/neck free for targeting.

Going back to targeting, if I'm having problems with the timing of the targeting, the dogs head turned the wrong way, the timing of the decoy, etc, then I may put the dog on the collar to give me more control until we get things ironed out. On occasion I've even had a leash on both the collar and the harness, so we can control the dog with the harness during part of the exercise, and the collar during another part.

And if I have both types of equipment on the dog, it's easy to switch back and forth as needed during a session.


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## Brian McQuain

Kadi Thingvall said:


> When the dog is going to be pulling into a bite, especially if it's on a bungee, I use a harness.
> 
> When I want to control the dogs head more, for things like going into the blind for a bark and hold, I use a collar.
> 
> When pulling, I want the dog pulling with it's body, not just it's neck. In addition, if the dog is pulling in it's in part for targeting work, and I want the dogs head/neck free to turn the correct way (leg bites). Could I put the dog on a collar and probably help force it to turn it's head the correct way, yes. But I prefer the dog learn to do it on it's own, through timing on both my part and the decoys part. When doing bungee work, if the dog is going to hit the end of the bungee and not get a grip, I do NOT want all that force on just the dogs neck. I have to find the photo series, but somewhere I have a set of photos showing what happened when a dog on a bungee hit the end, without getting a bite, and was flipped end over end backwards. If we are just slowing the dog down on a send by having it pull a weight, I still want it pulling with it's body, leaving it's head/neck free for targeting.


Like this: http://www.workingdogforum.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=3967&c=6

http://www.workingdogforum.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=3965&c=6

Compared to this: http://www.workingdogforum.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=3962&c=6


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## Gillian Schuler

susan tuck said:


> um yeah...about that....here's some real harnessed power for you:
> 
> http://youtu.be/RMUPLONhI4c
> 
> YIKES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:razz::razz::razz:


You are surely provoking me. These are all Show Dogs or "slow" dogs.

Admit it Sue!!


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## susan tuck

Gillian Schuler said:


> You are surely provoking me. These are all Show Dogs or "slow" dogs.
> 
> Admit it Sue!!


I surely hope so!!!! hahahaha German Slow Dogs!!!!!


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## Nicole Zacharias

Crazy newbie here with a weird case of starting protection work with an older dog, but my girl actually flatlined herself when she was on a harness. No idea what was in her mind that day, but she was just all fire and flare. I couldn't hold her back without hurting her, she was leaping with everything she had. I kept trying to give her slack without letting go of the leash, but one time she literally hit the end of the leash so hard that she flipped horizontal in the air and fell down hard on her back. This was with a harness. Not sure when but she pulled her iliospoas muscle on the right side. 

It wasn't until the next training session when she went for the first bite and yelped that we really noticed she was hurt. She held the bite (though the trainer instantly dropped the sleeve) and she stood over it, barking at him with one leg in the air until he was out of sight. Only then did she spin in a circle yelping a little. Didn't stop her from wanting to work (we just did some barking after, then I walked her out). All the things going through my mind. Her back, her hips, her stifle. It took one of the surgeons I work with twisting her hip out to finally get a sign of pain. Just a twitch of her back muscle. Otherwise she was stoic.

Used the collar after that since she couldn't do those hard hits. Though I did keep a harness on her so that when I had her close, I could keep her from leaping like she had been. It was easier to keep constant pressure. My girl is kind of different though lol. She started bitework just before she turned five years old.


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## Catherine Gervin

Nicole Zacharias said:


> . My girl is kind of different though lol. She started bitework just before she turned five years old.


sounds like she is eager to make up for time lost!! i'm sorry your dog got hurt throwing herself into the fray with such total commitment! is she alright now? injuries are never easy, but injuries at 5 are harder still--i hope your pup was able to take it slow so that she can recuperate properly, which is something my 5 year old Lab struggled to do, thereby adding problems to his mending.


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## Joby Becker

Nicole Zacharias said:


> Crazy newbie here with a weird case of starting protection work with an older dog, but my girl actually flatlined herself when she was on a harness. No idea what was in her mind that day, but she was just all fire and flare. I couldn't hold her back without hurting her, she was leaping with everything she had. I kept trying to give her slack without letting go of the leash, but one time she literally hit the end of the leash so hard that she flipped horizontal in the air and fell down hard on her back. This was with a harness. Not sure when but she pulled her iliospoas muscle on the right side.
> 
> It wasn't until the next training session when she went for the first bite and yelped that we really noticed she was hurt. She held the bite (though the trainer instantly dropped the sleeve) and she stood over it, barking at him with one leg in the air until he was out of sight. Only then did she spin in a circle yelping a little. Didn't stop her from wanting to work (we just did some barking after, then I walked her out). All the things going through my mind. Her back, her hips, her stifle. It took one of the surgeons I work with twisting her hip out to finally get a sign of pain. Just a twitch of her back muscle. Otherwise she was stoic.
> 
> Used the collar after that since she couldn't do those hard hits. Though I did keep a harness on her so that when I had her close, I could keep her from leaping like she had been. It was easier to keep constant pressure. My girl is kind of different though lol. She started bitework just before she turned five years old.


an out of control, improperly handled dog can also do a backflip on a collar, just letting you know.

why were you giving the dog slack at all anyhow, if it was out of control, lunging and leaping? that is when you keep a tight line.

I suggest a backtie and a leash to avoid this...

work on control some if you cannot handle the dog properly.


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## Brian McQuain

Joby Becker said:


> an out of control, improperly handled dog can also do a backflip on a collar, just letting you know.
> 
> why were you giving the dog slack at all anyhow, if it was out of control, lunging and leaping? that is when you keep a tight line.
> 
> I suggest a backtie and a leash to avoid this...
> 
> work on control some if you cannot handle the dog properly.


And downward pressure on the line has always prevented my dogs, including sled dogs, from flipping over on their backs when harnessed up


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## Joby Becker

Brian McQuain said:


> And downward pressure on the line has always prevented my dogs, including sled dogs, from flipping over on their backs when harnessed up


yes Brain, good verbalization... I agree, that is part of handling the dog properly 

havent had coffee yet, read that post and got a little pissed off...


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## Joby Becker

Joby Becker said:


> yes Brain, good *verbalization*... I agree, that is part of handling the dog properly
> 
> havent had coffee yet, read that post and got a little pissed off...


written explanation...


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## lannie dulin

Brian Reynolds said:


> Agree. Please consider that (a) I am a neophyte dog trainer, (b) I train for mondioring, and (c) I have titled only one dog. So please consider the context. Here is what worked for me and my dog.
> 
> I don’t see collar/harness for bitework as either/or, but rather BOTH. In our training we use both a collar and harness when teaching bitework, but for different reasons. To understand where I am coming from, I believe encouraging bitework using a harness almost to be opposite in concept to that of leash (collar) pressure.
> 
> My purpose in teaching leash pressure is for the dog to respond to the negative stimulus (pressure on the dog from the collar via the leash) by moving away from the pressure to turn off the negative stimulus (mostly negative reinforcement and some positive punishment). I can then combine the leash/collar (negative reinforcement/ pos pun) with a reward (food or click - positive reinforcement) to help the dog learn to turn off the pressure from the leash.
> 
> For bitework in mondioring, I want the dog moving and biting forward into the deocy. So we use both a collar, initially a prong with a short lead, and the harness. If necessary, the collar can be used to correct (positive punishment when he takes cheap bites - or negative reinforcement/pos punish to encourage the out - pull towards the decoy so the dog pulls away to out).
> 
> With the harness, the dog learns that if he pulls against the harness and tries to get the decoy, he often is rewarded with a bite (positive reinforcement): pulling back on the harness causes the dog to pull forward on the harness, toward the decoy and away from the handler, to get the bite (positive reinforcement). There is nothing “negative” (reinforcement or punishment) in using the harness -- it does not inhibit or constrict his breath or blood or cause any pain; it simply assists me in stopping the dog from moving forward. The dog learns to pull against the harness to get more of a bite, which also encourages a pushing-in bite that I prefer. The harness encourages the bite; the collar/leash can be used for control.
> 
> These concepts are not novel, but are what I used and worked for me and my dog.
> 
> I have seen and heard dogs with tracheal damage -- whatever might have been the cause -- and it is something I will not tolerate with my dog. I have also seen retinal petechiae and hemorrhage from dogs being hung up and choked off the bite; also something I will not tolerate with my dog.
> 
> Anyway, this question made me think about how a collar vs. a harness would affect me. If I was attached to something stationary or difficult to move, and somebody told me “hey go get that thing” or “go get that bad guy,” I would much prefer a backpack-style harness that didn’t restrict the breathing and blood to my brain, rather than a collar that would obviously constrict both my blood and breath.
> 
> For those who use only a collar to teach bitework,what do you see as the benefit? Just a beginner’s $.02 worth of thoughts and a question. I am new am new and trying to learn.
> 
> Thank you.
> -br


Perfectly stated. I use the exact same process.


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## lannie dulin

Nicole Zacharias said:


> Crazy newbie here with a weird case of starting protection work with an older dog, but my girl actually flatlined herself when she was on a harness. No idea what was in her mind that day, but she was just all fire and flare. I couldn't hold her back without hurting her, she was leaping with everything she had. I kept trying to give her slack without letting go of the leash, but one time she literally hit the end of the leash so hard that she flipped horizontal in the air and fell down hard on her back. This was with a harness. Not sure when but she pulled her iliospoas muscle on the right side.
> 
> It wasn't until the next training session when she went for the first bite and yelped that we really noticed she was hurt. She held the bite (though the trainer instantly dropped the sleeve) and she stood over it, barking at him with one leg in the air until he was out of sight. Only then did she spin in a circle yelping a little. Didn't stop her from wanting to work (we just did some barking after, then I walked her out). All the things going through my mind. Her back, her hips, her stifle. It took one of the surgeons I work with twisting her hip out to finally get a sign of pain. Just a twitch of her back muscle. Otherwise she was stoic.
> 
> Used the collar after that since she couldn't do those hard hits. Though I did keep a harness on her so that when I had her close, I could keep her from leaping like she had been. It was easier to keep constant pressure. My girl is kind of different though lol. She started bitework just before she turned five years old.


that's bad handling, don't blame the equipment.


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## Brian McQuain

Joby Becker said:


> yes Brain, good verbalization... I agree, that is part of handling the dog properly
> 
> havent had coffee yet, read that post and got a little pissed off...


 
I got yo back!


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## Nicole Zacharias

Like I had said, novice handler, attempting to follow the instructions that the trainer was telling me. The leash was tight, but he had told me that when she lunged to let my arms come forward just a bit so that she wouldn't end up in the position that she had. She had never previously been so determined in other sessions. I don't know what it was that day, but outside of dropping the leash, which at this stage in her training could have gotten the trainer hurt, I don't think I could have done that part any differently. 

Leia wasn't training with a sport goal in mind, but rather an actual defensive role in mind. She's never been a dog who does anything other than 110%. She did recover fully from the injury also, and with proper warming up and stretching has refrained from causing another reinjury. We also had changed up how we let her go into the bite to attempt and keep her from causing more injury to herself.

Now she is much more in control of herself than she had been back then. Enough that the day I tripped and fell on my face, she didn't drop the bite and I was able to get up and limp my way through the rest of her session.


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## Chris Viscovich

We use a Signature K9/Ray Allen Modular LLC harness for agitation and a variety of other tasks (hiking, agility, lift,carry etc) . We have added the breastplate adapter. Fits well and is durable.

We also use a Tactical K9 1.75 inch nylon collar with metal Cobra buckle and integrated handle. Really nice products. We train with both interchangeably.


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## Geoff Empey

John Wolf said:


> With the harness, I feel like the dog can bark better because he is not pulling and winding himself. However, the dog is also able to "swim" in the harness. You have more control over the dog's behavior with a collar.
> 
> With puppies, I use a harness. I will also use a harness on a more experienced dog if it is on a back-tie.


That is exactly the way I use those 2 pieces of equipment in our club. 

1. Agitation collar gives control 

2. Harness gives the dog power

There is always a slight variation from time to time with any of the tools I may or may not use. I may use an agitation collar for holding the dog and plugging the dog on the suit, or a specific target, or for restraining the dog for multiple sends. This is an example of me using it for sends. 

http://youtu.be/aR025S66DuQ

This dog's trachea has been damaged by a fursaver, so I prefer to not excaberate his symptoms with heavy leash pressure on any collar because of it. He just can work longer with a harness, comparing apples to oranges. 

Sure I can use an agitation collar in a pinch for a back tie, but that isn't my prefered tool for that work. I wouldn't think an agitation collar would/could cause damage used in the way I use it. But the way we train, the dog goes to the limit of endurance and then he gets pushed a little more. So any advantage we can use to build that endurance and help the dog's cardio I will use, and that is a harness.


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## Geoff Empey

Gerald Guay said:


> Forgot to mention; apparently most of the time the damage shows up later in life as the dog ages.


Yes but the issue is 'what' has caused the damage? Bad handling, normal aging or a specific piece of equipment? Something that shows up later in life is usually a compounding factor of many things imo.


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## Steve Burger

It has been my experience that when a dog in protection is taken off the harness and put on a pinch/prong collar then you see a huge increase in power. The Lance Collins mantra..prey drive + conflict= Power. The pinch creates conflict. This then increases power. Granted he is very sophisticated in how the pinch collar is utilized in all aspects of protection training, and grip work.

The harness is very good when cut up into small pieces as tracking articles. That is a clear advantage to it.


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## Steve Burger

Gillian Schuler said:


> I cannot subscribe to any of these points.
> 
> Notable trainers?? I've worked with many a notable trainer, one of which was Ronny van den Berg and he doesn't use a harness.


 No shit. I watched him train as well. in training he did not use a harness or a fur-saver. I also trained with one of his club members who also had a WUSV world championship under his belt. He did not use a harness or a fur saver either. I will not say what they used because I don't know if they are legal where they are from. They happened to use the same collar that we use in protection work. I like the way Lance puts it..using a harness is like using only 6 cylinders in a V8 motor. A fur saver or choke is generally a bad idea in training because the dog can choke themselves ou,t wear themselve out, and increase the chances of damage.


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## Gillian Schuler

Steve Burger said:


> It has been my experience that when a dog in protection is taken off the harness and put on a pinch/prong collar then you see a huge increase in power. The Lance Collins mantra..prey drive + conflict= Power. The pinch creates conflict. This then increases power. Granted he is very sophisticated in how the pinch collar is utilized in all aspects of protection training, and grip work.
> 
> The harness is very good when cut up into small pieces as tracking articles. That is a clear advantage to it.


As I once told you, Lance Collins was in Switzerland and met members of SC OG Wohlen, i.e. a member group of the Swiss German Shepherd Association.

Samuel Dubach of that club decided that my Briard had potential but suggested I use a sharpened pinch collar. I said ok but he should show me how to use it. It's a simple instrument but he showed me how to use it effectively, not harmfully!!

It's the same with the harness vs collar.

Some have said it gives the dog more power.

*Our dogs didn't need power - it came from within!!*

No one on this forum has answered my question "how long does the pup / dog have to engage in protection work whilst on the lead.....

Any neck injuries cannot be attributed to the few minutes straining on the lead to get to the helper. Let's face it, some of them don't even strain.


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## Dave Colborn

Harnesses work in a variety of instances but they are like any other piece of equipment. Only as good as the training in which they are incorporated.

Some good uses or reasons to use:

Getting a dog with a negative experience on a collar to pull towards what they want to bite encouraging the opposition reflex.

letting a dog that is pulling harder than their neck will handle still allowing them to breathe while doing so.

Cuing a task.

Protecting a dog from trachea injuries.

Protecting a dog from thyroid injuries.

Leaving a dogs neck sensitive to a collar.

Common sense says if it didnt help a dog pull, mushers wouldnt use it?

I know the sycophants (thanks kris) will talk about how great so and so can do it without. Well, we dont all have their quality dogs or talent or situation and we have to get by until we do. Especially when you need a marginal dog to do better. This is common in military and LE and sport. It's not a perfect world and for one reason or another you have to make things work for cert. A point here for better barking or a faster entry for sport. 

There is no real advantage to using a harness as tracking articles vs. Using individual pieces of cloth, leather, or metal, wood, plastic from other sources. Individual items could be obtained at a hardware store or a home instead of having to purchase a harness and pay shipping.


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## Gillian Schuler

Dave,

Can you list cases of trachea or thyroid injuries caused from protection work lasting at the most 5 minutes. 

I agree that not all dogs are gifted but thus being so, those that are not will not be straining to get to the helper and therefore not injuring trachea or thyroid??


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## Brian McQuain

Gillian Schuler said:


> Dave,
> 
> Can you list cases of trachea or thyroid injuries caused from protection work lasting at the most 5 minutes.
> 
> I agree that not all dogs are gifted but thus being so, those that are not will not be straining to get to the helper and therefore not injuring trachea or thyroid??


 
Has there ever been a study done? Seems common sense to me.


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## Dave Colborn

Talk to your vet or someone you respect in the medical field about trachea and thyroid issues because I don't have any statistical data, only opinion,what my vet has said, and articles on the internet. I am choosing not to answer that one, because I think you will find a better answer from them. I don't think anyone can definitively say what causes some issues, just that they are a possibility.

I have seen several dogs that do bite work and detection on collars and choke chains have trachea issues from my days in the military. I would bet it was bad training and equipment with most.

I have seen dogs that choke out and can't breathe on a collar starting bitework, but do fine on a harness. I think that has to do with development of muscle tone in the neck, but using a harness still works, as do slick floors to prevent the dog from digging in to much.

Once a dog is working how he needs to I see no reason to leave it on the harness any more than a sport dog would need a pinch, choke or ecollar on a trial field.

I like your thought process on the second part of your post. 

*"not all dogs are gifted but thus being so, those that are not will not be straining to get to the helper and therefore not injuring trachea or thyroid??"

*but what if he is straining because of a previous correction? A lifetime of corrections?
how can you diagnose it and fix it
My thought process is that they may have gifts that have been subdued by previous experience. It is my goal to get them as far as I can as a dog. A harness can make a mediocre dog better for some of the reasons I listed above and I don't see any detriment anyone has shown thus far.



Gillian Schuler said:


> Dave,
> 
> Can you list cases of trachea or thyroid injuries caused from protection work lasting at the most 5 minutes.
> 
> I agree that not all dogs are gifted but thus being so, those that are not will not be straining to get to the helper and therefore not injuring trachea or thyroid??


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## Chris Viscovich

Thick flat collar is most frequent because it is the most likely employment equipment for us.
Harness is used for power building and long duration training.
Pinch is used to train and reinforce the OUT only.


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## Mary Velazquez

This is obviously controversial and there should definitely be some research done on it, but I must say from an anatomical point of view it doesnt seem logical that repeatedly throwing themselves against the end of a leash where all the force comes against their neck would not cause some damage much less be "good" for them (eg muscle strengthening). Just my two cents....

I did have one dog whose trachea was permanently damaged from pulling against a flat collar.


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## Joby Becker

Gillian Schuler said:


> Dave,
> 
> Can you list cases of trachea or thyroid injuries *caused from protection work lasting at the most 5 minutes.*
> 
> I agree that not all dogs are gifted but thus being so, those that are not will not be straining to get to the helper and therefore not injuring trachea or thyroid??


not everyone does protection work for only 5 minutes. 

I sometimes do 1 bite that is longer than 5 minutes.


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## Mark Herzog

Gerald Guay said:


> Had a discussion with our vet recently and she said that she has seen more that one working dog (bitework trained) with various types of minor to major post trauma issues due to recent or previous collar induced neck injuries. She highly recommends the use of a harness vs a collar for bite development work.
> 
> Would like to hear your thoughts on this.
> 
> GG


My first thoughts are that the vet was simply giving you her unsubstantiated opinion on what caused the issues she had seen... She concluded they were the result of "bite-work" training but had zero evidence to support her conclusion. Those neck injuries could have come from everything from improper use of prong collars, use of choke chains, overly thin flat collars, improper corrections, etc.. The injuries might not have had anything to do with bite work... Or they might... The point is she doesn't actually know for sure.

She may simply be repeating opinions she read on the Internet 😉

My dogs don't use harnesses... I also don't use choke chains... I use prong collars (double hooked so no choke effect) and I use flat collars. I have never had any neck injuries with any of my dogs... GSD's

During bite work the dogs may strain against the flat collar during agitation work, but that actually puts less strain on their necks than the impact pressure that the dogs themselves apply when they are regularly "posted out" on chains. When posted they will sometimes run around and bang on the chains, putting much greater impact stress on their own necks than ever experienced during bite work.

Just my observations.


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## Joby Becker

Mary Velazquez said:


> This is obviously controversial and there should definitely be some research done on it, but I must say from an anatomical point of view it doesnt seem logical that repeatedly throwing themselves against the end of a leash where all the force comes against their neck would not cause some damage much less be "good" for them (eg muscle strengthening). Just my two cents....
> 
> I did have one dog whose trachea was permanently damaged from pulling against a flat collar.


the thing is that if people have half a brain they are not letting the dog "throw" itself against the end of the leash (or backtie) with tons of force.

I have owned at least 50 dogs that have done bitework and almost never used a harness, and never had a dog that was damaged by using a collar.

And many of those dogs were on chains or tethered, where they occasionally did slam against the collar on their own. 

I do like wider thicker collars though, in the 2-3 inch range. The one I use currently is 2.5" wide with a 3.5" square harness leathe flap that covers the buckle area and sits where the throat is...
I think people use what they prefer..

Ive probably worked over a 1000 (give or take 100) dogs in my life and very few of them had harnesses. id guess 1-2%, just a guess.


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## David Baker

I have to harness my dog. He can't really bark when pulling in a collar and nearly chokes himself unconscious. he's almost blacked out a couple times.


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## Steve Burger

David Baker said:


> I have to harness my dog. He can't really bark when pulling in a collar and nearly chokes himself unconscious. he's almost blacked out a couple times.


 That is why a prong is always the right choice, so they will not choke themselves out. The added conflict adds power.


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## Dave Colborn

What type dogs or situations are prong collars not applicable in your belief?



Steve Burger said:


> That is why a prong is always the right choice, so they will not choke themselves out. The added conflict adds power.


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## Chris Viscovich

I personally try to keep my dog sensitized to corrections on the prong. I do not want her of the opinion that she can ignore it when the red mist sets in. Just my opinion and training style. We try to be aware of unintentional prong corrections, that would occur during agitation.


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## Mark Herzog

Chris Viscovich said:


> I personally try to keep my dog sensitized to corrections on the prong. I do not want her of the opinion that she can ignore it when the red mist sets in. Just my opinion and training style. We try to be aware of unintentional prong corrections, that would occur during agitation.


I tend to agree with this... We don't use the prong when doing agitation work... We leave it on but connect to the flat collar instead.

I know others who use the prong because they feel it builds the aggression and makes the dog less sensitive... This is what they want.

I don't want my dogs learning to "blow off" the prong.


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## Chris Viscovich

Just wanted to add that we use a combination of observing other dogs on the bite, obedience and denial to bite to create frustration that leads us to really good working sessions. Of course this works best in a group setting.


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