# Stud Fee Puppy - Guarantee?



## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I'm curious, for those people who give the stud dog owner a stud fee puppy, do you also give with that pup the same guarantees that you would give with a pup you sold to someone?

And if you are the stud dog owner who is getting a puppy as a stud fee, would you expect the same guarantees on the puppy as the breeder gives with their other pups?

And what is your rationale behind your stance?

Actually while we are on the subject of gaurantees, do people consider a guarantee transferable? IE if you sell a pup to someone, and they resale it to someone else, if there is a genetic problem with the dog down the line, who has a responsibility to the final owner? The original breeder, or the person who sold them the dog? This could be a situation where someone took a stud fee puppy then resold it, or it could be a situation where a breeder sold a pup who was then resold.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

This is why there is no such thing as a guarantee. For 5000 a pup, I think that is a reasonable price for guarantees that are transferable.

Who is to say that they did not kick the dog hard enough to cause damage ? Who is to say the dog wiped out, dislocated his hip, and it was never taken to the vet to fix it ? There are a LOT of reasons not to guarantee things like this.


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## Danny Craig (Dec 19, 2010)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> This is why there is no such thing as a guarantee. For 5000 a pup, I think that is a reasonable price for guarantees that are transferable.
> 
> Who is to say that they did not kick the dog hard enough to cause damage ? Who is to say the dog wiped out, dislocated his hip, and it was never taken to the vet to fix it ? There are a LOT of reasons not to guarantee things like this.


I'm in general agreement with Jeff on this. I think what the breeder can guarantee is that they have done everything they can (minimum hips, elbows, eyes, full dentition certification free of genetic defect) to ensure that the breeding pair are healthy, temperament full, working candidates out of healthy lines of the same. And to a large extent the buyer is responsible for doing their homework. Caveat emptor. After that, every puppy is a crap shoot.
Now, if a puppy turns out to be a dud (for health or temperament reasons) and the puppy owner did right by that puppy (didn't screw it up), it would make sense (to me anyways) to give that person a puppy from the next litter free of charge.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I just don't get the guarantee thing to begin with. Some scammers started the dang thing years ago. Why it is still around I do not know. 

I remember with hips, you had to wait till the dog was two, and had proof from OFA and then you had to give the dog back. 

Most pups that people sell are usually to some hanger on that will never do much more than fart around with sport, then realize that they actually have to do something other than leave the dog in a crate or kennel, and God forbid train it. 

I want return guarantees. I have been thinking about this. I want some guarantee that you will not **** the puppy up. I want a guarantee that you will provide good care. I want a guarantee that you will title the dog and wander the earth and trial it.

If you are good at training, then I want a guarantee that you will trial my dog at high level events. LOL

How many would buy a dog if they had the same goofy guarantee crap thrown back in their face ??


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

The pup is in lieu of payment of the stud fee, so yes, the pups should have the same guarantees going to the stud owner. Going rate is the price of a pup.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Danny Craig said:


> I think what the breeder can guarantee is that they have done everything they can (minimum hips, elbows, eyes, full dentition certification free of genetic defect) to ensure that the breeding pair are healthy, temperament full, working candidates out of healthy lines of the same. And to a large extent the buyer is responsible for doing their homework. Caveat emptor. After that, every puppy is a crap shoot.
> Now, if a puppy turns out to be a dud (for health or temperament reasons) and the puppy owner did right by that puppy (didn't screw it up), it would make sense (to me anyways) to give that person a puppy from the next litter free of charge.


So that is the guarantee you provide with your puppies. The question is, do you also provide that with a stud fee puppy?


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Don Turnipseed said:


> The pup is in lieu of payment of the stud fee, so yes, the pups should have the same guarantees going to the stud owner. Going rate is the price of a pup.


And what do you do if the pup has a genetic defect? Assume it's from your female and not the sire? 

If your gaurantee is a replacement pup, what do you do if the stud dog owner only wants a pup from his stud dog, which was what the original agreement was for?


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## Mike Valente (Sep 14, 2010)

Were talking ethics here which is very subjective from one breeder to the next. If the stud owner wants a pup in exchange for stud fee then they should have done their home work on the b!tch before the breeding took place and usually they get first pick so doesn't have much to cry about but should be able to exchange for another if needed do to health issues not simply a change of mind. In reality he represents half the health of the pups and is partially accountable for any health issues different from a buyer with 0% influence on the pups health initially. If he chooses now he wants the stud fee in return this isn't the original agreement so if breeder chooses to pay him it should be at the breeders discretion and after others are sold since no money was initially recieved to actually return 
As far as guarantees if your attempting to be an ethical breeder of true working dogs or just a breeder this will reflect in your depth of guarantee. If selling a "working" prospect vs pet, then all "serious' genetic defects affecting "working" ability should be covered by a refund or replacement of pup. I.e.. a coat condition doesn't effect working ability IMO so doesn't count as a serious defect and certainly not detrimental. If not a working prospect then it should boil down to serious genetic faults leading to death within a certain time frame which warrens a refund, but if a fault is not detrimental then there is no guarantee unless specified by the breeder. I.e.. I produced a pup that started having a kidney problem around 3-4 months it was rare and detrimental had to be put down, I gave the option of refund they chose another pup.
If you resell a dog,your making a new agreement with someone else regarding the dog, the breeder did not agree to the new terms so IMO any original guarantees are now void. 
This is like defining what should or shouldn't be in your insurance plan and what is actually going to be covered and how accurately it is covered when the sh!t hits the fan. It boils down to doing your homework on the dogs, lines and most importantly the breeder. And understanding there is no 100% guarantee on anything. A contract is just an agreement wrote down on paper, trying to enforce said contract is something totally different.


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

What makes a stud fee puppy different than any one of the other pups in the litter? If you guarantee your pups it should be all or none I think. I have never heard of anyone who would transfer a guarantee if the pup is resold.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: What makes a stud fee puppy different than any one of the other pups in the litter?

Because they are requesting a pup instead of cash. It is usually their pick of the litter as well. How do they get a replacement pup if the breeding pops up bad recessives ??


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

We do not garantee anything. Its genetics. How mutsh I do my homework and know my lines it can always be crapp.
I wuld not promise to replace 8 pups if they did not turn out well. Hell I lose mony on everybreeding as it is.

Why wuld I nead a garantee. I have always replaced ore given my byers the opeturnety to get a new dog for free anyways. But I want the choise. As jeff sed, What about peopel realy breaking the dog them self, Ore being a big pain in the as. 

You get a dog from me becaus I breed good dogs, If you nead a garante like that go some wher elles.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

All our pups have the same guarantee for health whether pick or pet pup or exchange for stud fee. The price of my puppies includes the guarantee and many people consider the price of the stud fee to be a price of a pup so it makes sense to me.

However, I would not allow the stud dog owner to tell me I must use his/her dog again or breed a certain combo so as to get a replacement from it unless it was "my plan" to do the breeding combo. It would seem so ridiculous for me to breed to a stud that I did not want to and raise up an entire litter at the request of someone that wants one pup from that combo.

I do make the stipulation that the health prob (such as hips) must be proven by OFA vet statement and not just because the owner shoots me an email saying the dog is "moving funny" or not jumping well.

If the puppy owner used the dog for breeding and then wants a replacement due to a health defect, I would not replace that pup unless it was a defect such as heart that surfaced later in life. If it was HD that could of been checked at 2 years or before and hips were not checked until 5 years for example and they bred the dog several times then the replacement guarantee would be void. I give the guarantee partially to entice folks to get the health checks done in a timely manner so I can have the health stats to make better breeding decisions.


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## Danny Craig (Dec 19, 2010)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> So that is the guarantee you provide with your puppies. The question is, do you also provide that with a stud fee puppy?


Personally I prefer not to pay stud fees with puppies. I prefer to just pay a stud fee.

However, if I did agree to trade a puppy for a stud fee, then I suppose I would extend the same guarantee to the stud owner. I haven't given this much thought, so I'm interested in what others think as I mull this over.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Danny Craig said:


> Personally I prefer not to pay stud fees with puppies. I prefer to just pay a stud fee.
> 
> However, if I did agree to trade a puppy for a stud fee, then I suppose I would extend the same guarantee to the stud owner. I haven't given this much thought, so I'm interested in what others think as I mull this over.


I'm actually in the same boat as you, hence the question. I have given stud fee puppies a couple of times, and I've taken them a couple of times, but generally I prefer to just do $$. However, if I want a puppy from a litter my male sired, or the stud dog owner wants one, it seems weird to be handing out cash, then turning around and handing the cash back for a puppy so ...

But I'm on the fence on the whole concept. 

I'm leaning towards no guarantee since the reality is the stud dog is responsible for 1/2 the geneticis of the pups. Normally the stud dog owner takes no risks in the litter, if there are genetic issues it's the owner of the female who is responsible for taking care of things, in whatever manner they agreed with the pup buyers. But if the stud dog owner wants a pup, I tend to think they should accept the genetic risks that come with the pup from their stud dog. Not to mention most want a pup because they want a pup from their dog, so a replacement pup isn't really an option, unless you wanted to breed to their dog again. And then what, do you owe them 2 pups, or a stud fee and a pup, one as the replacement, and one as the stud fee for the new breeding?

If I do a stud fee pup again, I'll probably just discuss this with the stud dog owner and we'll hash out what we each think is fair.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I'm curious, for those people who give the stud dog owner a stud fee puppy, do you also give with that pup the same guarantees that you would give with a pup you sold to someone?
> 
> And if you are the stud dog owner who is getting a puppy as a stud fee, would you expect the same guarantees on the puppy as the breeder gives with their other pups?
> 
> ...


If I sell a puppy from my kennel, then I offer the same working and health guarantee, no matter who the father or mother is. If I sell a puppy and it is later resold to someone else, then I would still honor the health guarantee, but would not guarantee the work of the dog, but if i sell a pup and the original owner is not happy with it, then I will always take it back and exchange it for another puppy.
Sometimes this guarantee really bites me in the ass, but I always honor it.


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: What makes a stud fee puppy different than any one of the other pups in the litter?
> 
> Because they are requesting a pup instead of cash. It is usually their pick of the litter as well. How do they get a replacement pup if the breeding pops up bad recessives ??


I know that. Here's what makes no sense whatsoever, if the stud owner is paid the fee (which I assume is about equal to the puppy price), and turns around and buys a pup from the litter, the pup now has a guarantee? And if the pup is taken instead of the fee, cutting out the extra step, it's not guaranteed? Either guarantee them all or not. There's no obligation to repeat the breeding if there are bad recessives, but the stud owner is not responsible for planning the breedings anyhow, just the use of his dog. It is a service they get paid for.


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> But if the stud dog owner wants a pup, I tend to think they should accept the genetic risks that come with the pup from their stud dog. Not to mention most want a pup because they want a pup from their dog, so a replacement pup isn't really an option, unless you wanted to breed to their dog again. And then what, do you owe them 2 pups, or a stud fee and a pup, one as the replacement, and one as the stud fee for the new breeding?
> 
> If I do a stud fee pup again, I'll probably just discuss this with the stud dog owner and we'll hash out what we each think is fair.


My dog has been used once. I took a puppy and never even thought about getting a guarantee. It's half my dog's genetics (probably the doofus half :lol: ) and I think it would be weird to complain about something that my dog helped produce. I also didn't have any contract such as right of first refusal or must do hip x-rays or whatever. Goes both ways. It was never even discussed, but it probably should have been just to be clear before the breeding took place. Probably your best course of action.

Laura


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Out of a breeding I had sold a pup to a individual that individual had sold the dog again because he figured out that the DS wasn't for him and bought a older GSD from god knows where. He had asked me to get involve and help him register the dog. I said you can't he said well what about UKC, I said yea they will but I am not getting involved because I can care less about papers on a dutch line dog. In my original sale I told folks no registering was being done because simply I don't give a crap about them when it comes to dutch line dogs. 

He said what about guarantee, I said what about it I sold the dog to you not who ever had the dog now. He said why not, I simply told him because I am already selective on where they go and will be next time even more thanks to you. Well he didn't like that at all. So I told him you know what I will guarantee the dog for genetic defects and thats it which seem to please him enough because I don't know the individaul capability to work the dog and two like Jeff said how do I know He didn't kick the crap out of the dog to get another pup or money out of me.

Thats my feelings on this topic.:-({|=


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

The whole thing is goofy. If the owner of the stud wanted a pup, they should have said so in the beginning.

Suttle is mass producing, so he can afford to let a guarantee transfer. I don't know many breeders that would go along with that. I know I sure wouldn't go after a breeder for a second hand pup/dog.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> The whole thing is goofy. If the owner of the stud wanted a pup, they should have said so in the beginning.
> 
> Suttle is mass producing, so he can afford to let a guarantee transfer. I don't know many breeders that would go along with that. I know I sure wouldn't go after a breeder for a second hand pup/dog.


2nd hand?? I love 2nd hand dogs! :-\" A lot of good pups and dogs have passed through several owners and some have been returned to the breeder for resale. From personal experience, I've gotten some of my better dogs 'back' from the original owners either to be kept in my breeding program such as Rista (mother of Avatar)..she lasted about 10 days as a pup in her first home and was returned for being too much. Phantom, sire of Avatar went through a sport home (too much dog), a protection home (returned as an older dog due to owner's failing health) and now standing at stud in France. W/O those 2 "boom-a-rang" doggies, Avatar would not be.

Mals include Bexter (FR), Bogan (MR), Benz "Diesel" went to a couple sport handlers where he was too much (police dog), Ayden who ended up in a shelter and I retrieved him (Police dog), Drako everyone knows his story by now (Cell Det)... 

imports - Saida and Orly -- several not great homes before I received them as adults.

Of course there's a ton more if I wanted to go back all 20 years and talk about long dead dogs as well and not just dogs that people know of right now.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

I´m with Debbie, we had some great dogs back at 10-18 mo back, usually to much dog, 2 other times personal affairs. We buy them back for puppy price or just a little bit more.

We also garantee genetics, money back or new puppy. I want to know first if a puppy from our breeding must go -never mind the reason- from the owner I sold the puppy to. Or I help to get a new home for the dog or buy it back.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: 2nd hand?? I love 2nd hand dogs! A lot of good pups and dogs have passed through several owners and some have been returned to the breeder for resale.

I meant go after them for the guarantee.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Not a breeder but I would think the bitch being bred would have to be some sort of super dog or compatible with the lines for a responsible breeder to even want a puppy for the stud fee.
Maybe a cut in fee for first pick choice?


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Bob Scott said:


> Not a breeder but I would think the bitch being bred would have to be some sort of super dog or compatible with the lines for a responsible breeder to even want a puppy for the stud fee.


I think you might be surprised. The average male dog owner would like to breed his dog and get a pup from it at some point. The average (I'm using average more as in the number of dogs out there, not the quality of the actual dog) male dog will not be used for breeding, and if he is, only once or twice in his lifetime. There are dogs that have 10, 20, 50 etc litters in their lifetime, but they aren't the norm. So many times a stud dog owner will jump at the chance to get a puppy back from a female he thinks is worth breeding his male to. And really, unless he does like the female and think it would be a good breeding, why is he breeding his male to her?

I get unsolicited emails on a regular basis from people with a male offering me the opportunity of a lifetime, to breed to their male and all they want is a pup or two from the litter, it's such a great deal for me I should be flattered and jump on it.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I think you might be surprised. The average male dog owner would like to breed his dog and get a pup from it at some point. The average (I'm using average more as in the number of dogs out there, not the quality of the actual dog) male dog will not be used for breeding, and if he is, only once or twice in his lifetime. There are dogs that have 10, 20, 50 etc litters in their lifetime, but they aren't the norm. So many times a stud dog owner will jump at the chance to get a puppy back from a female he thinks is worth breeding his male to. And really, unless he does like the female and think it would be a good breeding, why is he breeding his male to her?
> 
> I get unsolicited emails on a regular basis from people with a male offering me the opportunity of a lifetime, to breed to their male and all they want is a pup or two from the litter, it's such a great deal for me I should be flattered and jump on it.



I would agree with the "average" BYB. I see adds in the papers all the time for "Have such and such breed "stud dog". Want to breed for a pup...OR big bucks. :lol:
I wouldn't think that was common among responsible breeders though.


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## Drew Peirce (Nov 16, 2006)

Whats really ideal is when the stud owner and the owner of the breeding female share the same philosophies and goals for the pups.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Bob Scott said:


> I wouldn't think that was common among responsible breeders though.


That's the thing, most of the people who own good males aren't breeders. So if they want a pup off their male, they have to find someone with a female who likes their male enough to breed to him.

Those are the "average" I'm talking about. People I see at training, trials (FR, MR, Sch, PSA, herding, etc) who have nice dogs and would like to get a pup from them, but don't own a female who would be a good match, or don't have a female at all, so they are just hoping someone will breed to the male so they can get a pup. Oh and when I say "nice dog" I'm simply talking about what I see in the training or trial, don't know what the pedigree is, what health checks they do or don't have, etc.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

That makes sense!


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Interesting thread.... I take puppies on stud fees more often than not. I have never considered getting a guarantee as it was my choice puppy or fee. Some of you make some good points however.... ill be sure to make it a discussion point in the future.

As far as s transfer guarantee no, not unless I got the dog back and found the home. When I sell a dog, i can be pretty picky.... that transaction is my choice and I benefit in some way.. it is not someone else's choice.... if they are reselling the dog they need to guarantee it.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Drew Peirce said:


> Whats really ideal is when the stud owner and the owner of the breeding female share the same philosophies and goals for the pups.


That and $19.99 will get you a big bucket of KFC


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I had a call in November to use one of my dogs for stud in January. I told him no problem. Stud fee is $950. Told him I didn't want a pup as I just recently purchased one that I did want. Most people with the bitches aren't breeders either and see giving a pup as a free breeding. The giving a pup is nothing in their mind because they wouldn't have it without the breeding. They are getting a free litter of pups by giving something they didn't have in the first place. If they seriously want the breeding they will pay the price. If they were just looking for a freebie, they can buy a male somewhere else for about half the stud fee. Damn, I am sitting here typing this post and the dogs are barking. I am try to place this very mild scent that is getting stronger....damn one of the dogs killed a skunk and the scent is getting stronger even with the windows closed.


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## Erin Lynes (Feb 3, 2010)

Don Turnipseed said:


> .... Damn, I am sitting here typing this post and the dogs are barking. I am try to place this very mild scent that is getting stronger....damn one of the dogs killed a skunk and the scent is getting stronger even with the windows closed.


That is good stuff right there, lol.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

If we take a stud fee puppy, this means the first pick and vaccinated + microchipped just like the other pups.
Guarantees are hardly ever given over here.
Prices for working puppies are very reasonable and this doesn't include a guarantee.


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## Alison Grubb (Nov 18, 2009)

I am not a breeder, really have no intention of being one. One of my buddies regularly takes a pup or two for stud fees when he owns the sire of a litter. For the most part the pups are then sold to working homes. It has worked out for him so far and has allowed him to have those genetics to go back to if he would like to bring them back into his program.



Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I just don't get the guarantee thing to begin with. Some scammers started the dang thing years ago. Why it is still around I do not know.
> 
> I remember with hips, you had to wait till the dog was two, and had proof from OFA and then you had to give the dog back.
> 
> ...


I realize this is off topic, but I think it's actually a good point.

When I get a dog, I believe that I have a responsibility to the breeder to do the best for that pup that I possibly can. If for whatever reason I was unable to provide the training or care for the dog that it needed to become the best it could be, I would be the first one on the phone to the breeder to figure out what could be done to get the dog in the position it needed to be in.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Guarantees are hardly ever given over here.
Prices for working puppies are very reasonable and this doesn't include a guarantee.

Are breeders there mostly guys or girls ? Here it is mostly women.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Are breeders there mostly guys or girls ? Here it is mostly women.


There are very few real "breeders". A lot of litters are in NVBK handlers' homes.
Most are guys.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Guarantees are hardly ever given over here.
> Prices for working puppies are very reasonable and this doesn't include a guarantee.
> 
> Are breeders there mostly guys or girls ? Here it is mostly women.


We do it together, but also have our `task`. I do most training and testing. Selena the pups and of course the PR...:mrgreen:

Its good to know what your good at, but also to know what your NOT good at...:-#

Dick


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> We do it together, but also have our `task`. I do most training and testing. Selena the pups and of course the PR...:mrgreen:
> 
> Its good to know what your good at, but also to know what your NOT good at...:-#
> 
> Dick


And before the children were born I started the females in work, now I can't train. The kids keep me to busy to train myself, sometimes I come out to the club, but even watch training is with 1.5 eyes on the kids (esp Dennis). Miss training myself. But have choosen to let Dick train, he's so much better in it than me...and If I train I want it to do my very best and it is just not possible the way I would like it at this point in life


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

"(esp Dennis)"
:grin: :grin: :grin: Bless you Selena! :wink:


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

shouldnt have named him after Dennis the menance, you'll get one


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> shouldnt have named him after Dennis the menance, you'll get one


 My "Dennis" is named Jeff (son 26). Grown now but we also have Scott (4yrs old ) youngest grandchild. Definitely a menace! 
The 4 older grandkids actually have him lock the dogs up so they can play in the yard. The dogs obey him. :-o :lol:


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