# K9 Martial arts answer for Joby



## Butch Cappel (Aug 12, 2007)

Joby 
Sorry I didn’t get to answer your question on the other thread, I’ll go quick here, before my little troll gets things started again.

Describing a K9 Martial Arts dog to someone used to conventional PSD, Sport or PP training is like describing an elephant to a blind man, it’s easy to get the Big and Gray part, but the tusks and trunk are just a bear to grasp. 

So with that in mind I am going to background this a little bit so you can understand the _why_ of a K9 Martial Artist to better see the _What_ of how it works, if your sincere in wanting to learn what it is? 
When the sport of SchH was imported and promoted to the US, by an Alabama Sheriff, as a way to better train police dogs in 1972 I was totally sold. I was blown away by the flash in the OB and the use of “drives” to get results in the bite work. SchH was the most scientific system I had ever seen to get good bite work from a dog. Used properly it allowed more dogs to be successful, I was hooked, but the officers in the departments I was training with didn’t feel the same way. 

The opinion of the K9 handlers I knew at this time, was that if they sent a dog into a building after a felon, they wanted the felon disabled, not barked at, and if someone started beating their dog while it was fighting, they did NOT want the dog to ignore the hits. I however was sold on SchH, I also was not on the street with a dog!

Fast forward to the eighties, SchH is now the rage in many parts of the country I was decoying and training for a half dozen or so SchH clubs and thought it was all so cool that I considered substituting sauerkraut for my grits at breakfast (couldn’t do it) Then I got into the guard dog business.

It wasn’t long before I found a very good Dobe, that was guarding a construction sight with his head bashed in. Then I remembered what all those cops had told me when ShcH first came to the US. Then is when I remembered experience is always to be respected for very good reasons.

It was clear that a Guard Dog had a different set of circumstances than a PSD. A PSD had to apprehend a fleeing felon or someone in a large building, but in the worst case scenario, after the initial bite, the PSD would have back up from its partner in a matter of minutes, even if he was being struck as they arrived. A guard dog could have eight or more hours by himself, his job was not to just apprehend but to disable, and to stay healthier than the burglar. 

The difference in a PSD and today what is referred to as a “sport” dog is those dogs bite and are then either backed up, or scored by a judge. 

A Guard Dog and as it turns out, many PP dogs have to bite and then stay in one piece to disable the attacker. That is where K9 Martial Arts come in, After the initial bite, avoiding any strikes or hits from the bad guy. 

So with that I can describe the best part of a K9 Martial Artist as never being suckered into a “targeted” area and not getting hit when the fight is on, because after all, if you’re the one getting hit the most, you are probably NOT the one that is winning the fight. This link is my dog in early training learning not to target and NOT to get hit; http://www.youtube.com/user/k9prosport


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## Mike Jones (Jan 22, 2009)

That's an interesting video. Is there a reason why the dog kept coming off the bite without command. Is this by design. I would think if the dog comes of the bite than the suspect would escape. Do you have any updated videos on the progress of this dog. I would be interested in seeing him without the leash and all of the encouragement.

Do you train with a hidden bite suit? I would like to see your method on a hidden bite suit. (civil suit). One more question, how does the dog avoid being hit? Does he run or duck down? How does it work? If my girlfriend was being attacked I would want my dog to fight a man even if he were being hit by a stick. I would want him to take the pressure and the pain so that she could get away or find something to help him fight. I want a dog that's can take a lick and keep on ticking.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I have about 5 years experience (and a black belt) in a style of martial arts that taught taekwondo at lower levels and mixed in other stuff after you had been training for about 2-3 years, so I have a little experience in both martial arts and protection sport. I fail to see why what you are calling "K9 martial arts" (coming off a bite and then taking another to avoid a hit?) is somehow more of a "martial art" than Ring, PSA, or even Schutzhund. I kind of mentally equate Schutzhund to taekwondo (more pattern oriented) and Ring and PSA to Brazilian jujitsu or other mixed styles (a bit more free and dare I say realistic?), but I don't think I can equate how your sport or whatever it is fits in. Then again, since I did martial arts before I got into dog protection sport, I can remember all too well very similar "my martial art is more martial arty than your martial art" threads on various boards. :roll:

Incidentally, if you were really *that* interested in sharing this with Joby, I think you'd probably send a PM instead of attempting to elucidate it in front of the whole board...


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## Charles Guyer (Nov 6, 2009)

Butch Cappel said:


> Joby
> Sorry I didn’t get to answer your question on the other thread, I’ll go quick here, before my little troll gets things started again.
> 
> Describing a K9 Martial Arts dog to someone used to conventional PSD, Sport or PP training is like describing an elephant to a blind man, it’s easy to get the Big and Gray part, but the tusks and trunk are just a bear to grasp.
> ...



So what you're saying is, you've trained the dog to out reason the bad guy. It's finally starting to make sense. I've been wasting my time worrying if my dog had the drive for the work, when all along I just needed to pick a dog with a higher IQ than the average felon. Do you have any literature that I might pass on to my dog? Like how to transfer bites on a guy that is doing his best to keep you engaged by rhythmically moving a limb side to side in order to disarm him while you grow an opposable thumb and dial 911.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> ...but I don't think I can equate how your sport or whatever it is fits in.


I stand corrected. "Grab my arm. The other arm. MY other arm. Okay, now watch this...I'm just gonna break the wrist and walk away. Break the wrist, walk away."


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

""Grab my arm."


:-k Is that anything like "pull my finger". :wink:


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

> Joby
> Sorry I didn’t get to answer your question on the other thread, I’ll go quick here, before my little troll gets things started again.
> 
> Describing a K9 Martial Arts dog to someone used to conventional PSD, Sport or PP training is like describing an elephant to a blind man, it’s easy to get the Big and Gray part, but the tusks and trunk are just a bear to grasp.
> ...


Butch first of all I would like to say that this is a pretty condescending way to describe it, assuming that people can not understand it..PP training is not really conventional, now is it? i know plenty of people that train a dog on the whole body, that do not look for solid grips, and promote transfers onto whatever moves towards them...that know nothing of "K9 Martial Arts". 

To compare a PSD to a SCH trained dog is pretty passe' in any sense these days. I doubt it really applied back in the 80's in many circles.

if you look at what a riot dog is, as far as performance, it is very similar to what you describe, in it's biting style, different function from a guard dog but biting is similar to what you describe. No really set grips, pops off and rebites,I get it....but the riot dogs I have seen are far more powerful than the dog in the video and show a very real intent to fukk somebody up...

As far as your video goes, I could be totally wrong in my assessment, but I see a young dog that is not comfortable on the legs, and a decoy that is hiding his arms to get the dog on the legs..his eyes are high the whole time and he goes up top with no threat from up there at all. i also see a dog that is happy pulling on the suit and not attempting to find the man and actually do any harm to him, the has a pretty weak, non committed bite, not one bite actually takes any part of the man in its mouth. a young dog with prey barking and all, probably not all that confident, judging by his vocalizations in his "fight" with a decoy that is not even fighting him, never really attempts to strike the dog, or do anything that might hurt him..

This video is tagged as being a form of a martial arts takedown, trained exclusively by K9PS... I see a decoy that either just fell down, or went don in an attempt to give the dog confidence, either way there is nothing in the dog that "TOOK THE GUY DOWN". so like I asked about, before I am convinced I would like to hear the sepcific form of martial arts takedown that this video displays, and the training that is done for it, cause it does not appear in the video to be specifically trained for..

all in all, I get what you are trying to convey, I have trained dogs in similar fashion, and seen many more that are either stressed aggressive or defensive dogs, that transfer very easily, that do not set a grip. That respond to striking movements against them..I will say that they were far more powerful than the dog in this bid, and would most likely do much more damage, based on the intent in the suit, and the power of their bites...

I get what you are trying to say, but the video does not display it to me.
You describe this video in a very specific manner, that it is a form of martial arts takedown, with exclusive training. but I can not see it, and it is not because I am naive, it is becauase the techinque is NOT in the vid.
Do you have any other vids of this K9 martial art?
i did see another vid of a bulldog taking you to the ground, on a prey bite. that popped off the bite and had ample opportunity to chew your face off, but did not, luckily for you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcXPuKejcgE

I UNDERSTAND what you are trying to say, what you are claiming..but I have yet to see anything that shows it...all of the dogs in vids of K9PS..take single bites and do NOT transfer. and the decoys in K9PS from what I can see do very little "fighting" with the dogs...no striking that I could find, no transfers, and they freeze up on the bites..

I do appreicate your answer, but it does not fly with me..the words do not match what is available for viewing..even from your world champion videos...
Any other videos, maybe of some mature strong dogs, displaying the k9 martial arts, against some decoys that are actively fighting them?

thanks again..
I still don't get it, and it is not because I cannot understand it, it is because there are no good examples of it..hopefully there will be sometime soon. 

I did notice on your website that you are toying with a street competition, claiming not bitesuits or sleeves.

"Decoys would NOT wear a suit, Not have sleeve, everything would be done Civil!!!!!!! “How can that be done” you are asking? “Someone will “get bit” Right! That’s the type of training that can only be done with K9Pro Sports decoys and scenarios, the type of training that comes from real life street experience! The type of training you ONLY get at K9Pro Sports events."

In addition to possibly trying to display this martial arts business....can you explain this STREET TRIAL...no sleeves or suits..so what then?
hidden equipment? rags? muzzle. or just onleash dispays?

here is another quote from you that is kinda condescending as well, condiering no details are given...

"And please, Wanna-be’s with your self serving, negative non-sense, keep it to yourselves, this can be done, but only if you are a K9Pro"

I am not in any way trying to be negative about the STREET TRIAL, but can you explain how it will be done, even though I am not a K9 Pro yet, I might be interested in competing in that one...but would need to know how it will be conducted...


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## Charles Guyer (Nov 6, 2009)

You're just jealous cause my dog is chatting online with babes and training to be a cage fighter. Why don't you see what happens when you come down here and try to hit him.


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## Shane Woodlief (Sep 9, 2009)

Spaticus Bubbacus (Are you freaking kidding) MODS!

Have we missed his introduction to the WDF


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## James Idi (Apr 19, 2009)

As a N00b to dog sport, it would appear that the K9PS approach differs from other dog sport in at least the following aspects:

1. Dogs are trained and encouraged to target and engage specific helper threats
- the K9PS approach to a helper wacking him with a stick, or "scooping" the dog on a leg bite would be to drop grip and re-attack the hitting/grabbing arm.

2. Trial scenarios are unscripted.
- requires more flexibility, less rigidity

3. Less emphasis on "precision" obedience.
- compared to say, the sch routine


I can see how this approach could be appealing for some folks.

From my brief examination and assessment of the various popular dog sports around today, there are aspects of each I like, and don't like. K9PS doesn't seem much different in that regard.

To each there own imo...


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

As a N00B to dogsports, your brief examination has left you high and dry in the idiot tree. Climb down now, and quit with the silly opinions based on no actual knowledge. 

This board has been around for a long time. Perhaps you should not waste brain energy typing, but focus it all on reading the many many good things that have been written here.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

sparticus bubbacus said:


> Wow Joby. That's a hell of a response.
> 
> I am pretty new to this whole thing and since you really seem to be the be all and end all in the dog protection world, how do you train your dog to handle these type of situations? Can you show me some videos of you and your dog training?


Hey Mr. Bubbacus, or whatever your real name is. 

How do I train my do to handle what situations? I have not seen any of the situations. Or even heard about any of the situations. Again not trying to sound rude here, just that your question is unclear.

I am not the be all end all of anything. I simply asked a few questions. The video provided in the answer was very inadequate in conveying the message.

The video is stated to be a martial arts takedown. I see a guy falling down, I do not see a dog taking him down...here is the takedown trained exclusively by K9PS. Watch the video explain it to me if you can, please...I would appreciate it.
http://www.youtube.com/user/k9prosport

Here is a vid of a couple dogs "taking people down" at a PP sport competition, with no K9 martial arts training. You can compare the two vids yourself. I have put some work into each of these dogs. I can explain the takedowns if you can't understand them. One dog knocks the guys down, the other drags a guy down.

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=joby1#p/u/1/uxNYWR-Dutc
..
Again not bashing anyone, just trying to learn about this stuff, and why it you call it comparable to MMA. I do not get the comparing dog training to martial arts thing still..



> "I would have to say that the sport dog training is analogous to taking boxing classes in the same way that K9 Pro Sports training would be to analogous to taking Mixed Martial Arts classes."


Do you train K9PS? That would be great if you do...especially if you could show some of the techniques. 

I have one female dog currently that is in training for Sch. but I do some other things with her. I have not tested the dogs real metal, or her martial arts skills yet. But do hope to in the future...I really would like to know what this STREET competition is all about...or is it a secret to only be shared with K9 Pros? 

No suit, no sleeve sounds awesome to me, I want to hear more about it...

Here is short lame video of my dog, like I said I have not tested her metal yet, but in this lame video there is a shit ton more pressure being put on my sport dog, than there is in any Martial Arts videos I saw...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tE4iCm_-Kk8


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## Shane Woodlief (Sep 9, 2009)

I don't know Joby look like she was doing some kind of Brazilian Jujitsu, Akido K9 martial arts arm bar take down to me  What belt is she?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

James Idi said:


> As a N00b to dog sport, it would appear that the K9PS approach differs from other dog sport in at least the following aspects:
> 
> 1. Dogs are trained and encouraged to target and engage specific helper threats
> - the K9PS approach to a helper wacking him with a stick, or "scooping" the dog on a leg bite would be to drop grip and re-attack the hitting/grabbing arm.
> ...


That may be true in theory but not evident in any of the trial footage I have ever seen, I saw 95% forearm presentations, with not one single transfer, not one...


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Ok maybe its not my place to comment but hell again it never stopped me before...

I dont get the view behind the whole bite and release thing one bit...watched the vid and saw a halfbite GSD with no real confidence (could be coze its a young dog) and a stumbling decoy and im thinking...what the hell is the dog learning here ? appart from not really having to make an effort or build some character or balls....I might as well have been watching pacman coze thats all de dog does...bite, release, bite....a lawsuit waiting to happen if you ask me....

I have nothing against the sport or the people who practice it, perfect sport for the weaker dog in my eyes...coze he dont have to actualy follow through when push comes to shove...no character or confidencebuilding in it when i look at the video...not letting the dog get hit does not mean it makes it stronger or smarter...just means its more likely to take a run for cover when it does actualy at some point get a whooping since its not expecting it and never dealt with an actual hit to start with...


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Alice Bezemer said:


> I dont get the view behind the whole bite and release thing one bit...


Me neither :-k

Nothing against K9 Martial arts. I didn't know it at all before reading the posts the last few days, but from what I saw I agree with Alice that it could be a sport for the weaker dogs that don't qualify for other sports.
And maybe a very inexperienced handler will believe the fairy tales, but no way someone with even a little bit of experience with dogs will.

No problem with people practising it. As long as they are having fun, why not. But I do have a problem with the marketing of it being a tough discipline...

@ Joby: Nice video! :grin:


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## Butch Cappel (Aug 12, 2007)

Joby Thanks for your video as well, I’m sure the vets in your area recommend you highly for training, you have that dog quietly taking that scalp exam even while sucking that baggy suit the Vet was wearing. 

It has to be reassuring to them, knowing that even if they are pulling a tick off, the dog want turn loose and re-bite, heck even if they are poking the soft spot a brick could fit in, that dog is totally OK! 

Thanks for your interest in the K9Pro, Protection Dog Validation, our street real trial, but with your hours of experience and owning your first dog and all, I’m sure you’ll be too busy, besides I’ll bet those Vets keep those customers banging on your door.

PS (was any dog harmed in the making of that exam?) 
Dog Trainers Central
K9 Kountry


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Butch Cappel said:


> This link is my dog in early training learning not to target and NOT to get hit; http://www.youtube.com/user/k9prosport


I might be a shag on a rock here, but theres no way on gods green earth I want this dog backing me up when the shit hits the fan.


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## Butch Cappel (Aug 12, 2007)

People, we have all just witnessed the flea exam Joby’s dog was taking. In about half that time the Vet could have grabbed the collar, twisted, Doggy lights out! 

And of course the classic response was from, Mike Jones; “_If my girlfriend was being attacked I would want my dog to fight a man even if he were being hit by a stick. I would want him to take the pressure and the pain so that she could get away or find something to help him fight. I want a dog that's can take a lick and keep on ticking.”_ 

Do you know how much damage you can do with a big stick to the head or muzzle of a dog Mike? How about a brick or an iron pipe? 

Now your girl friend has a dog with a concussion, AND a Dog Bit, POed dude, with an iron pipe! Must be her lucky day. 

Alice Bezemer said; “_just means its more likely to take a run for cover when it does actually at some point get a whooping since its not expecting it and never dealt with an actual hit to start with”._

Alice, Thank You! I missed the part of the video that said “These dogs have never dealt with an actual hit, and never will in all of their training” could you get me that spot up again so I can make a few corrections? Thanks for Assuming! 

Dog Trainers Central

K9 Kountry


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Mr Butch

Please tell me that you have not sold a working police dog to a actual real Police Dept.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Butch, remember the rule that you won't reopen time after time if a thread is closed? If not, here by your reminder.


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