# herding styles/techniques



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

would like to hear more from various people on the conditions they have worked dogs in, thats how we have so many different specialised breeds all basically to do the same end job.

the last full-time herding work i did was clearing out this now national park of feral cattle, the green shaded is the actual site. it is a huge unfenced area there are no boundaries except on a map. stock can still migrate in and do.

we worked on basis paid per every head of removal we only had to produce the ears to get paid. if we caught them they were our property to sell at market - which was a lot more money than the bounty but a lot more work. some better quality ones were walked cross country for about 6 weeks to form foundation herds for other properties starting out. cattle were all brahman cross and completely wild and aggressive. 


would appreciatte others stories.

.
hope this link works

http://maps.google.com.au/maps?hl=en&ll=-15.029686,144.448242&spn=1.787803,2.688904&sll=-25.335448,135.745076&sspn=52.0586,86.044922&z=9


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Moving sheep across the major highway to other parts of their farm, for some farmers round here is a bit of an epic. Good dogs are essential when those road trains are bearing down on a thousand sheep running across the highway and up the sides of the road LOL. A green dog can cause absolute chaos. Brains, good instinct and the ability to work independently is essential.

I went out on a stock route many years ago with cattle as one of my first jobs. The dogs mainly ACD and mixes thereof. I was looking after the horses and the stock horses that were loose would out of habit work with the dogs even when they were riderless.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Here, its small farm work. 6-9 acres are the bigger areas my dogs have worked. 130+ is the most sheep at one time. They've worked goats until I got rid of them because none of the other dogs could work them. They can gather in the pasture, load chutes and trailers, sort, hold and they have trialed at the program advanced level here. I work them on area farm cattle--Dexters, Angus crosses but minimally. I've always wanted to know they were up to it. Even the most broke cattle are risky. They have done ewes w/ lambs and mama cows with calves. Working Brahman and some other types really gets you in the land of dog is expendable. I don't know of any of the farmers here that keep Brahman or Brahman crosses. Will have to ask a couple. As far as roads and such, yes we run into that but I think my GSD was the only one I worked with that. Done wrong there was a lake or they could get to the road--no room for mistakes. Teva was that type of dog--finesse and no messes. I think Peggy Richter posted recently that are far more cattle in the U.S. than sheep, looking at the USDA statistics and the bulk of them keep under 50 head. There are large commercial operations though but they don't begin to cover what you see in the Australian sheep stations.


T


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

I saw a farmer once with his young dog out trying to get sheep down a road, fortunately not the high way. It was complete chaos, there were sheep flying everywhere and the farmer was running around like a mad man. Several of us had to stop and help. Highlighted the value of good dogs.

Ye cattle work is dangerous, I could see that from the limited time I spent on a station many years ago. Probably why I so drawn to the ACD.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Beat the feed pan and "ewes" got company!#-o


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Beat the feed pan and "ewes" got company!#-o


That could work for some LOL


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

Recently I attended a Kevin Howell Kelpie clinic here. It was interesting to note, that his "style" of training is not too much different than most of the methods I have learned in my herding training. It has always been a priority with me to not become a "screamer" as many of the trial folks here are  and he was definitely not that, very relaxed but still used encouragement and pressure, then praise for correctness.

We have about 30 cow/calf pairs that we run on 13 1/2 sections (about 6,000 acres)of state lease land. They are wild range cattle. When we gather, we have to cross a paved road. My FIL does not like to use dogs. I keep trying...so I guess I will continue to dog break the replacement heifers and keep my fingers crossed that he and the rest of the family will give in and see how useful the dogs can be.

I use my sheep and goats for training. I haven't put my Kelpie on the cattle yet. I want her to learn some body awareness first.Hopefully that will come with a bit more maturity. She turned 2 today=D>

I have started to realize that there are a small minority of people herding in the US that actually own their own facility and stock. I guess it just shows the evolution of our society from an agricultural base to a more urbanized one. And the shift, at lest here, into more of a herding for sport mode.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

My first K9 partner (GSD) actually herded 5 burglars/auto thieves one time . It was a big surprise to me because before that he just came across as a guided misile . It was intersting to see that the behavior was still there . He would adjust to the group and move to cut off any as if tried to move away from the group . That's as close to herding as if ever been though .


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

Jim Nash said:


> My first K9 partner (GSD) actually herded 5 burglars/auto thieves one time . It was a big surprise to me because before that he just came across as a guided misile . It was intersting to see that the behavior was still there . He would adjust to the group and move to cut off any as if tried to move away from the group . That's as close to herding as if ever been though .


That is pretty cool!

Also interesting that the thieves still acted like sheeple and allowed themselves to be herded. :twisted:

I would have loved to have seen that.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Kellie Wolverton said:


> That is pretty cool!
> 
> Also interesting that the thieves still acted like sheeple and allowed themselves to be herded. :twisted:
> 
> I would have loved to have seen that.


They had no option . They had a building to their backs and a few cars they tried to hide or move behind .They worked him pretty good moving around but none had the guts to make a full blown break for it . They did act like sheep though .

I'm pretty sure it would have been a different story if they were all in an open field . Intersting none the less .


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Jim Nash said:


> My first K9 partner (GSD) actually herded 5 burglars/auto thieves one time . It was a big surprise to me because before that he just came across as a guided misile . It was intersting to see that the behavior was still there . He would adjust to the group and move to cut off any as if tried to move away from the group . That's as close to herding as if ever been though .


I think that is close enough.\\/


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> I think that is close enough.\\/


I had a couple of Rotties that liked to try to herd people...

One in particular was kind of like the Bouvier in the "Conflict" thread, he would grab people ankles when they tried to leave, and "herd" them back to their seats, so they could continue to pet him...


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I think a lot of "natural" talent in herding is still there for a lot of different dogs. It's nothing more the a refined version of the hunt. Cut off corners and contain/gather!
Even the terriers in the rat pits didn't chase the rats all over and randomly killing them. They contained the rats in a corner and snapped them up as they tried to break out of the pressure. 
That's a somewhat crude form of herding, but herding non the less. :lol:
For the record, I think the Aussies rock when it comes to stock work. The dogs have to be just as tough as the country and people there. I can't think of many things off hand that would compare to working the range cattle over there.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

I think the Aussies rock when it comes to stock work. The dogs have to be just as tough as the country and people there. 

i don't know Bob how much of your own country have you actually seen, i worked on a few operations in arizona and GC it is exactly the same other than the distances are a bit shorter and the stock seldom get the chance to go generations without ever seeing a human - yr colder states Montana etc keep stock in line becuase they have to hand feed in the winter.

you guys seem to breed shitter cattle though eg in the west all those rangey little native mex breeds, wild and dangerous as sh!t if u let them, just smaller they remind me of huge hogs.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Jim Nash said:


> My first K9 partner (GSD) actually herded 5 burglars/auto thieves one time . It was a big surprise to me because before that he just came across as a guided misile . It was intersting to see that the behavior was still there . He would adjust to the group and move to cut off any as if tried to move away from the group . That's as close to herding as if ever been though .


 
haha there was a cop show in the 70's i saw a few times i think it was called Mcloud" with Dennis Quaid????? it was some country cop moved to the big city and he used to "lasso" / rope bad guys. 

anyone know the show, it was pretty funny at the time.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Wasn't McCloud Dennis Weaver?




Peter Cavallaro said:


> anyone know the show, it was pretty funny at the time.


It was funny. I liked it. For a while I think it was one of three that rotated on NBC Mystery Movie (McCloud, Columbo, and MacMillan and Wife).


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Wasn't McCloud Dennis Weaver?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
could well be, i got 75% correct which is good considering the time span and the condition of my brain.
it was a long time ago, i thought it was a good show.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Wasn't McCloud Dennis Weaver?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yup

Dennis Weaver was Mc Cloud. He also played Marshall Dillon sidekick Chester in Gunsmoke before that. He was an early 
environmentalist and build an Earthship in Colorado. He died in 2006 in Ridgeway Colorado


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Thomas Barriano said:


> He also played Marshall Dillon sidekick Chester in Gunsmoke before that.


Excellent trivia! 8)



eta



Back to _herding styles/techniques_ ....


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Yup
> 
> He died in 2006 in Ridgeway Colorado


 
RIP


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Excellent trivia! 8)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They still play Gunsmoke reruns on weekday afternoons on the local Christian TV channel along with Bonanza and Rifleman.
To get back on topic. They have a lot of cattle on the old
TV westerns


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Thomas Barriano said:


> To get back on topic. They have a lot of cattle on the old
> TV westerns


:lol: :lol: :lol:


Yes. Yes, they do.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

OK back on topic, thought i would only mention this stuf becuase its a lifestyle and a time that doesn't exist anymore, noone else who lived it is gonna put it on no interwebs, and u folks will never find out any other way, a short message to the legacy of dogs passed.

so the vegetation on the mapped area is almost unpassable along the waterways so our technique was to go out on moonlight nights when the cattle left the scrub to feed in the more open areas. stock tend to settle more at night anyways and the cow & calves travel better which is a bonus. 

so when finally tracked up (finder dogs) and caught out in the open the leaders were allowed to break unchallenged, the catch dog would be sent while the herding style dogs would work the main herd. the humans kept their distance for a time, natural "flocking" behaviour kicks into the cattle when surrounded by dogs and they break/run less, safety in numbers. 

if we were calm and had calm dogs the wild cattle would actually start to build trust with us and we always took tame coacher cattle for them to hide in. rogue cattle were much worse to handle than the wild feral ones as they had already lost their trust of humans.

the method worked quite well to get rid of the first larger numbers which was profitable, each sweep only the most aggressive were left behind which were then dealt with straight catch and finder/ bailing dogs, more brutal but worked for the hold-outs.

so thats 4 styles of dog in one operation, finders/bailers, herders, drovers, and catch.

at any moment dog horse or man is up for being killed in the process, brahman bulls can run as fast as a horse and they charge to kill through goring/kicking/stomping.

just shows why in practice teams of dogs are needed with different skill sets - the multi-purpose dog IMO is a myth.


BTW while talking television my fav. ever show was F-troop, none of my peers remembers it, i used to run home from school to watch it - anyone else remember it. c'mon Connie a good thread only slightly off topic but noone is being nasty.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

_"BTW while talking television my fav. ever show was F-troop, none of my peers remembers it, i used to run home from school to watch it - anyone else remember it."
_

Ah, F Troop ..... Forrest Tucker (_The Music Man_) was in that!

Larry Storch, Ken Berry .....


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> _"BTW while talking television my fav. ever show was F-troop, none of my peers remembers it, i used to run home from school to watch it - anyone else remember it."
> _
> 
> Ah, F Troop ..... Forrest Tucker (_The Music Man_) was in that!
> ...



Wasn't Bob Steele on F Troop? He was a movie cowboy from waaaay back

I wish I was in an area the had HGH style herding for my GSDs.


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> , i worked on a few operations in arizona and GC it is exactly the same other than the distances are a bit shorter and the stock seldom get the chance to go generations without
> 
> you guys seem to breed shitter cattle though eg in the west all those rangey little native mex breeds, wild and dangerous as sh!t if u let them, just smaller they remind me of huge hogs.



So...where in Arizona have you been? Just so happens that is where I live 

and OUCH[-X about the cattle... our "shitter" steaks tastes pretty darn good. Nothing beats a home grown steak


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Kellie Wolverton said:


> So...where in Arizona have you been? Just so happens that is where I live
> 
> and OUCH[-X about the cattle... our "shitter" steaks tastes pretty darn good. Nothing beats a home grown steak


 
mainly prescott, GC, scotssdale, flagstaff, cave creek and a bizziion places i can't remember. it was a great time.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> just shows why in practice teams of dogs are needed with different skill sets - the multi-purpose dog IMO is a myth.
> 
> .


 Will disagree on this statement when it come to sheep. Nothing worse than having to have a paddock dog and a yard dog. A good utility dog will do both jobs just fine.
A good breeder will try and breed for utility skills.

The situation you are talking about is completely different however and a lot more dangerous. These scrub cattle are incredibly dangerous. A pastoralist recently got knocked back by the police for a request to carry a pistol while out checking scrub cattle with his dog. He said a rifle was unwieldy when trying to protect yourself from a charging scrub bull and unwieldy to carry through the scrub. His request was declined despite the local cop agreeing with him, truth is those cattle will try and kill you.

These days they seem to use small choppers to do a lot of the mustering.


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## Denise Gatlin (Dec 28, 2009)

They use a lot of ATV (all-terrain-vehicles) here to move cattle but it seems the cattle learn that the ATVs are harmless and there can be a silly game of chase before you realize it. I have watched many times this scenario and would get a kick out of half a dozen ATVs chasing cows all over the place. I am wondering if the cattle also realize that the copters are harmless as well. No teeth in any motorized vehicle!! 

Short herding story here. A friend who has about 400 beef cows finally jumped on board to use dogs (they were the ones I would laugh at when moving cows with ATVs!) Another friend who is a herding judge came for a visit with his BCs and to give me some private lessons. The rancher had tried for several weeks to move two bulls into different pastures for breeding, to no avail, using ATVs. I had the herding judge bring his BCs out and in just a few mere minutes they had quietly moved both bulls in their pastures. The folks that came out to watch were in awe. Needless to say, we are now training two Aussie Xs for the rancher.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

choppers have their place, we started using them when their was a surpuls of vietnam war vets looking for work, last time i rode out we had 3 choppers working and a spotter plane. problem is it only takes cattle about one season to learn to ignore them in the right terrain, thats wen they bring out the shotty's n start blasting. 

in unfenced country choppers can cause more problems than they solve because wild cattle just migrate out of the area ahead of the chopper led by the branded rogues, have seen clouds of dust miles ahead of the chopper as our profits escaped.

choppers do little to train cattle. personally i am against them to be used as a regular management tool, but can't deny their success rate.

choppers are a good platform for taking a shot with a dart gun at rank bulls. like all things u still need a man on the ground to mop up.


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