# Pros and Cons of the Protection Breeds



## Jennifer Overby

This mind be a tremendously bad idea, but I'm looking for a balanced, fair assessment of the strengths and weaknesses of the main protection breeds: German Shepherd Dog, Belgian Malinois, Dutch Shepherd, Rottweiler, Doberman, and Giant Schnauzer. If you have experience with another breed, feel free to throw that one in. 

Some things I'd like to know about each breed:
-Prey vs defense (which does it MOSTLY prefer to work in)
-"On/Off" switch (can it come off the protection field and immediately be friendly)
-Dog socialness (likes strange dogs)
-People socialness (likes strange people)
-Tendency to "come up the leash" (will it turn on the handler when frustrated, or feel the need to dominate handler)
-Tolerance of irritation (puts up with puppies, kids, etc)
-Any other traits you commonly see in the breed.

Obviously there are exceptions to every rule, and genetics, training, and socialization play a big part in how a dog will act, but I'm looking for a general "breed personality," if you will. Tell me why you chose the breed you did!


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## Bob Scott

As a breed I see the GSD as more of a "thinking" dog where the Mal is more of a reactionary dog.

The Rott is more defensive then either one of the above.

The "on off switch" can be learned.

Most good working lines aren't in a hurry to meet and greet strange people or dogs. 

"Comes up the leash" 
Not always but more often then not it's a created situation by the handler or trainer.

Tolerance of irritation with puppies, kids, etc
Often a learned thing but some dogs never will and some dogs are naturals. leaving any breed of dog with small kids or strange puppies isn't a great idea.

As you mentioned yourself there are always many exceptions to ALL of this and these are nothing more then "MY" opinion.

Others here may very well disagree completely and not be more right or more wrong. It is often individual experiences. 

Fancy side stepping huh? 

Decide which breed you want and you can find pretty much any temperament/traits if you look hard enough. 

A "good" breeder of any breed dog should be able to select what your looking for. 

I like Working line GSDs and terriers. Go figure! :wink:


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## Jennifer Overby

Well, that's kind of the crux of the issue: in order to decide what breed I want I need a broader knowledge of the breeds! I started Schutzhund with my rescue Rottie and want to continue in the sport with a working line dog when the time comes, but I'm not entirely set on breed. My club is almost entirely GSD people. They're great; love the breed, but I have seen several "come up the line" at their handlers when they get too frustrated, or redirect onto someone who's standing near. I don't like that. I'm also petty enough to not want the dog that everyone else has (haha) but if the GSD is right for me then that's what I'll get. Some other breed-specific issues I've heard of: Giant Schnauzers are very "rank" (is that the proper part of speech?), Dutchies don't have a lot of patience with nonsense or strangers, and Dobies have a lot of nerve issues. I'm leaning against the Malinois because of its smaller size and high, high energy (I am not a high, high energy person). 

I'd love a balanced, in depth, pros and cons view of each breed. I haven't ruled out any of them. Bob, your description of the GSD as a "thinking" dog and the Mal as a "reactionary" dog was very insightful and helpful; thank you.


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## Jennifer Overby

I like the Rottweiler, I really do. I've even contacted several breeders to see kind of "who's out there" and what kind of temperaments they describe in their dogs. I've never been able to get a concise answer out of Rottweiler people (or any breed owner, for that matter) of WHY they like that breed of dog above the others, with comparisons to other breeds in specific categories, as well as an acknowledgment of their breeds shortcomings.


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## rick smith

welcome !

books have been written about these questions even tho you have lumped them in a nice tidy list //lol//

your Q's are not breed specific regardless of what some people who favour one breed over another might tell you

work with the dog you have in front of you and don't expect the next dog you get to conform to what you have read about.
- there will always be exceptions to every behaviour in every breed

ask specific Q's about the dog you have and of course it always helps to back up your Q's with raw uncut video

i just saw a mal here the other day....rare to see them here in public
don't know how old it was but it was fully developed and in good shape - more laid back then a couch potato great dane and oblivious to everything going on around it in a very busy shopping arcade filled with wild kids.

i've always wondered why people are interested in these types of questions. any particular reason why you listed them ?


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## rick smith

sorry, our posts crossed and just saw your next posts....looks like you are answering your own Q's //lol//


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## Jennifer Overby

I'm mostly asking the questions to determine what breed I should get for my first working line dog. There's got to be differences, right?


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## rick smith

when you get opinions such as one breed is reactionary or one is a thinker, all that does is get some preconceived idea in your head when you look at the breeds.
- is it thinking or reacting ??
..... all dogs probably do some of both....in varying degrees

also, when do you stop gathering your data base ?
after 10, 20.....100 opinions ?
at what point will you think you understand the breed differences ?


basically you missed my point
i was basically saying abstract discussions about these Q's will always go on forever, and MANY of the opinions you hear will be highly subjective based on past experiences .... which may not correlate with the dog you end up getting 

u already stated your pref is for rotties and mentioned you start working one in IPO. but that was not enough so you wanted to see what's "out there" .... i'm cool with that, but it goes back to what i was saying....u will get more opinions and the quest will go on 

sure, it's great to get out and see dogs .... a VERY good way to decide what breed you want
- but why try and let other opinions make up your mind for you ??

imo one should not care too much about what other people think about other dogs and other breeds in order to decide what one is going to be the best one to get

get the one that best fits your lifestyle and budget and try to be brutally realistic about your strengths and weaknesses, and the other people you will be living with.

there will be a limit to how many you can get out and see (unless u are rich and have a lot of free time to travel), but that is the only way to learn. especially if you choose you mentors wisely ;-)

there are some pretty good reference books on dog behaviour. they are rarely breed specific, and there are probably good reasons for that //lol//


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## rick smith

btw, i couldn't tell whether the mal i saw was thinking or reacting ... didn't seem to be doing much of either, but my first impression was it looked like a damn nice dog whether it would "protect" its owner or not 

with that said, you never know 
- MANY people walk by me when i'm having coffee and say my dog looks quiet, sweet and laid back when they see him with me. nothing could be farther from the truth //rotflmao//


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## Sarah Platts

Jennifer Overby said:


> This mind be a tremendously bad idea, but I'm looking for a balanced, fair assessment of the strengths and weaknesses of the main protection breeds: German Shepherd Dog, Belgian Malinois, Dutch Shepherd, Rottweiler, Doberman, and Giant Schnauzer. If you have experience with another breed, feel free to throw that one in.


For me, most of what you describe are issues with individual members of a breed versus trait of all the breed with the notable exception of territoriality and protective instincts. Others things on your list are due to lack or the result of training methods. 
I do second Bob’s view that Mals are more reactionary. I’ve been told that dutch shepherds are mals with an ‘off’ switch.
What I found much more interesting was the range of health issues the various breeds suffer from. If I was going to put that much time and effort into something, I would tend to look at a breed with good structure and health before I would be concerned if it was going to come up the lead at me. 
I put together a list of the breeds you were interested in. I pulled the info from Wikepidia with the breed names removed. They are in no particular order. It would be interesting to make a selection based solely on what’s listed as the breed’s temperament and characteristics.
Let me know what letter you like and I will tell you the breed you have selected. Or make an edu-macaked guess. No fair cheating by checking with Wiki....lol

*Breed A*: Are often stereotyped as being ferocious and aggressive. As a personal protection dog, the breed was originally bred for these traits: it had to be large and intimidating, fearless, and willing to defend its owner, but sufficiently obedient and restrained to only do so on command. These traits served the dog well in its role as a personal defense dog, police dog, or war dog, but were not ideally adapted to a companionship role. The breed’s aggression has been toned down by modern breeders over the years, and today are known for a much more even and good natured temperament, extreme loyalty, high intelligence, and great trainability. Is known to be energetic, watchful, fearless and obedient. They can easily learn to 'Respect and Protect' their owners, and are therefore considered to be excellent guard dogs that protect their loved ones. They are generally sociable toward humans and can be with other dogs. However, the breed ranks among the more-likely breeds to show aggressive behavior toward strangers and other dogs, but not among the most likely to do so. They are very unlikely to show aggressive behavior toward their owners.
Because of differences in breeding strategies, different lines of the breed have developed different traits. Although many contemporary members of the breed in North America are gentle and friendly to strangers, some lines are bred more true to the original personality standard. Although the aggressiveness stereotype is less true today, the personality of the breed is unique. There is a great deal of scientific evidence that the breed has a number of stable psychological traits, such as certain personality factors and intelligence. One study found that the breed, compared to other breeds, rank high in playfulness, average in curiosity/fearlessness, low on aggressiveness, and low on sociability. Another study ranked the breed low on reactivity/surgence, and high on aggression/disagreeableness and openness/trainability.

*Breed B:* are said to be loyal, reliable, alert, watchful, active, independent, intelligent, and intuitive. Obedience through modest specialized training and discipline can achieve remarkable results. Gifted with a true shepherding temperament, they can supposedly work willingly together with their owners and can deal independently with any task they are assigned. They should be neither aggressive nor shy. Have a strong character and independence passed down from their herding ancestry. Although their character and traits suggests a strong potential for doing police or military work, care should be taken that this breed's seemingly sole purpose is not overlooked for its otherwise well-rounded character.

*Breed C:* This breed is good-natured, placid in basic disposition, very devoted, obedient, biddable and eager to work. Their appearance is natural and rustic, their behavior self-assured, steady and fearless. They react to their surroundings with great alertness. A calm, confident and courageous dog with a self-assured aloofness that does not lend itself to immediate and indiscriminate friendships. The breed is self-confident and responds quietly and with a wait-and-see attitude to influences in its environment. It has an inherent desire to protect home and family, and is an intelligent dog of extreme hardness and adaptability with a strong willingness to work, making them especially suited as a companion, guardian and general all-purpose dog. A powerful breed with well-developed genetic herding and guarding instincts. Potentially dangerous behavior is usually results from irresponsible ownership, abuse, neglect, or lack of socialization and training. However, the exceptional strength of the breed is an additional risk factor not to be neglected. It is for this reason that breed experts declare that formal training and extensive socialization are essential members of the breed. The breed love their owners and may behave in a clownish manner toward family and friends, but they are also protective of their territory and do not welcome strangers until properly introduced. Obedience training and socialization are required. 
A 2008 study surveying breed club members found that while the breed was average in aggressiveness (bites or bite attempts) towards owners and other dogs, it indicated they tend to be more aggressive than average toward strangers. This aggression appears correlated with watchdog and territorial instincts.

*Breed D*: is usually a quiet breed. Due to its breeding, the breed is inherently suspicious of strangers and can be very territorial. Once introduced, it is usually accepting of novel people or situations. It has the potential to be aggressive but the breed is usually reserved they are "amiable in repose, and a commanding figure when aroused. Has been described as trustworthy with children. They are very intelligent, and can become bored easily. They are also very energetic and highly spirited, which, when coupled with boredom, can lead to unwanted and destructive behavior. They are easily trained, and deeply loyal to their owner.

*Breed E:* Well-raised and trained members of the breed are usually active, intelligent, friendly, protective, alert and hard-working. Exhibit energy levels that are among the highest of all dog breeds. Will have puppy-like energy until the age of 3, though it is not uncommon for them to exhibit this energy level until the age of five. Many have excessively high prey drive. Some may be excessively exuberant or playful, especially when young. They can be destructive or develop neurotic behaviors if not provided enough stimulation and exercise. This often causes problems for owners who are unfamiliar with the breed and are not prepared to provide the exercise they require or a job for them to do. They are medium-sized, strong dogs that require consistent obedience training, and enjoy being challenged with new tasks. They are known to be very easy to train, due to their high drive for rewards.

*Breed F:* are highly active dogs and described in breed standards as self-assured. The breed is marked by a willingness to learn and an eagerness to have a purpose. They are curious which makes them excellent guard dogs and suitable for search missions. They can become over-protective of their family and territory, especially if not socialized correctly. They are not inclined to become immediate friends with strangers. They are highly intelligent and obedient.


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## Jennifer Overby

I like A, C, and D, Sarah  Thanks for putting those together.

I understand what you're saying, Rick - every dog has its own personality and every person will have their own (biased) opinion. To your questions "when do you stop gathering your data base," the answer is "when I see enough consistency in responses to get a general assessment of a breed's character." That's the way surveys work, isn't it? Everyone has their own opinion, and they're all a little biased, but get enough of them and you start to see patterns.

Everyone chooses the breed they do for a reason. I believe many choose their breed because they like the breed's characteristics. I haven't met anyone who searches litters of all breeds for a specific personality every time they get a new dog - they tend to stick with one breed because they know that breed consistently produces characteristics that they like. I just want to know what Dutchie people see in Dutchies that they like above all others, what GSD people see in GSDs that they like above all other, etc. Does that make sense? 

You asked, "why try and let other opinions make up your mind for you?" I'm don't think I am; I've certainly done my own research, read breed books, articles online, met a variety of dogs, etc. But I also value real-world opinions, people who have worked dogs for years and developed opinions through experience. It's also hard to find a good breed assessment of WORKING lines in general breed books. Most of the books will talk about the pet and showline personalities, and I think we can agree that a showline GSD has a very different personality than a working line 

I do really appreciate the time you all have put into your responses - I've learned from each of you already!


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## Jennifer Overby

Sarah, you're right. Perhaps I'm not asking the right questions about the breed to get an overall personality assessment. In what categories do you think the breeds differ as opposed to the individuals?


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## leslie cassian

Pick whatever breed you want. You have to live with the beast for the next 10-15 years, so you may as well have your dream dog.

Pro - you get the dog you want.

Cons. Good working quality pups from off-breeds, (other than malinois, which seem to be increasingly more common) are harder to find, so you will have to look harder for a good breeder, and if they are not close enough for you to see their dogs, you will have to trust that what they advertise about what they produce is true. You will also pay more, not just for the pup, but for the cost of shipping, or to drive however many hours to collect the pup.

From my own experience, working a Malinois and a Dutch Shepherd in IPO, this is what I can add.

Decide whether you want to be competitive in IPO, or just work and compete with the dog you have. There's a reason IPO is dominated by GSDs. 

I don't know your level of experience, but learning a new sport and gaining experience as a handler is difficult enough without adding the extra hurdles that come with a dog not as selectively bred for the sport as a good working lines GSD.

If you get an off-breed, is your club willing and capable of working with it? Some clubs just do not have the experience of working different breeds and trying to work a Rottweiler and Malinois in exactly the same way as a GSD is not going to get good results. If they don't like your chosen breed for whatever reason, (Mals too reactive, or in my case, I was told, DS nervy and spooky), then you have to deal with that as well. You say you have seen several GSDs come up the leash. If this was happening where I trained, I would be looking for another club, and I would not be getting a pup to work there. 

What I like in a dog, is not necessarily what others want. You have to decide what _you_ want, not just in breed generalities, but specifically in a dog - friendly? social? aloof? dog aggressive? tracking ability? bidability, high energy or laid back? moderate drive or high drive? size? and work with a breeder to get the pup that has the best chance of becoming the dog you want of whatever breed.


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## Sarah Platts

When I removed the breed names it made for fascinating reading because it removed alot of mental images and preconceived notions. Here's what is what.

A = Doberman
B = Dutch Shepherd
C = Rottweiler
D = Gaint Schnauzer
E = Mal
F = German Shepherd

Jennifer, take Leslie's advice. So much can come from certain lines versus general breed characteristics. This is not a one-size-fits-all situation. You need to balance your goals versus your home situation.


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## Joby Becker

cannot characterize a "breed" .

I suggest deciding on a particular breed, and then finding a suitable specimen that fits what you want.

Sure some breeds "tend" to be more like this and more like that, that has squat to do with the actual individual dog one might have, or get...

Base your assessment on the individual dog/family of dog, not breed...that is my advice..


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## Geoff Empey

Jennifer Overby said:


> I'm mostly asking the questions to determine what breed I should get for my first working line dog. There's got to be differences, right?



Lots and not just breed differences. There is differences right down to litter mates. It's just so very hard to generalize an answer to a question like that. 

For doing IPO the 'off' breeds Rotts, Dobes, Giants Bouvs etc while historically were good are so watered down your search will be endless to find something that can do the work in the first place. Not to say it can't be done but already especially buying a pup you've put yourself in a position for you and your 'first working dog' to fail. 

IMO to determine what breed or morely the genetics you need for your first working dog. I'd really be consulting your mentor in your IPO club first. As others have posted it has a lot to do with personal preferences, what fits with your experience and access to training resources, club etc. 

The way I see it every dog who's ever been close to the podium or on it even at some point in it's life had quirks and twerks. That's life. No dog, just like no handler or trainer, is perfect. I've seen dog's with all sorts of funkiness who were raised in a stable environment, trained by people who trained them correctly with care, worked through or around those issues, and put those dogs on podiums everywhere. 

It's not just a breed question it's a question of how deep you want to explore that human-canine relationship.


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## Jennifer Overby

Let me ask this of you guys: why do you own the breed you do?


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## leslie cassian

About thirty years ago, I stumbled across highlights of a Ring trial (I think) on television one day and decided I wanted a Malinois. Twenty years later I finally got one. Then I decided I wanted a brindle dog, so I got a Dutch Shepherd. 

Sometimes the why of breed choice doesn't have a whole lot of thought behind it, and yet, for me, it's worked out okay.


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## Jamie Ryan

Jennifer Overby said:


> Let me ask this of you guys: why do you own the breed you do?


I cared more about learning IPO than working a specific breed, so I got a GSD. I was asked once whether I was a closet Malinois person (probably am!) but I listened hard when another friend mentioned that it's really easy to screw one up for life. My GSD is teaching me a ton about the qualities I want (love that he's people social and dog neutral) and what I don't (not a fan of the handler hardness and want more pack drive/he wants to work with me, not because I'm the reward dispenser). If I get another sport dog, I'll be looking for those qualities more than the breed. GSDs aren't "my breed" but I think I made the right choice for my first competition dog.


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## John Ly

i've known rotts that were total love bugs. hesitant of a rag. i've owned shepherds that vets can stick their hand in its mouth and looks at its teeth. i've owned shepherds that a stranger cannot correct much less get anywhere near its teeth. 

pick the dog you think looks the most pretty/coolest. then go search for a breeder that breeds the traits you want. some working lines are just harder to find than others. also keep in mind some also last longer health wise than others.


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## Daniel Lybbert

I have a mal cuz I like a bit crazy a bit sharp and a bit mean. Smart to boot. Faster harder. My chances are better with a mal.


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## Bob Scott

I've had three "best dog I've ever had" in my life time.

The first two were GSD crosses and the third, my present older GSD is working line GSD. 

He passed the other two by the time he was 5-6 months old.

My #2 GSD is a great pal, lovable with most anyone BUT if I had gotten him first I may never have gotten a second one. doesn't mean I don't think he's an excellent dog in his own right but the difference is outstanding between the two. 

Both are W German working line over Czech working line. go figure!

I've owned half a dozen different terrier breeds and a few more terrier mixes. 

My two Kerry blues had totally different temperaments as did my two Border terriers. My Norwich had no hunting instincts what so ever. My JRT was nucking futs even for a JRT. My White Bull teirrier was a total goof ball with little to no thinking between the ears. My Pit was a typical lover as most Pits are.

My parents had a Rat terrier when I was still living at home and I had a St. Bernard. Saint was a nasty, evil bitch but totally under the control/dominance of the Rat terrier.

Yadda, yadda, yadda! 

As others have said decide what you are attracted to. Talk to lot of "good" breeders about the tendencys/traits/behaviors their dogs possess. You may be surprised. 

It is also advisable to have someone experienced look at pups with you. That experienced person can help you see through the breed hype and BS. 

Also, what people say about how this or that puppy will turn out can be drastically different then what you finally wind up simply because you pill probably raise the pup very different then that breeder may.


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## Geoff Empey

Jennifer Overby said:


> Let me ask this of you guys: why do you own the breed you do?





leslie cassian said:


> about thirty years ago, I stumbled across highlights of a Ring trial (I think) on television one day and decided I wanted a Malinois. Twenty years later I finally got one. Then I decided I wanted a brindle dog, so I got a Dutch Shepherd.
> 
> Sometimes the why of breed choice doesn't have a whole lot of thought behind it, and yet, for me, it's worked out okay.


Basically the same for me but it was a K9 Cops show, I was drawn in by the trainability, aggression, and the rareness of the breed at the time. I was lucky that there was a breeder close to me we went and visited and they had 2 litters on the ground. The pup we wanted wasn't available but ended up coming available and we snagged her which is the dog in my avatar. The rest they say is history. She is 9 years old now, that little dog has brought me all over North America and she is still taking me places. 

She started off as an active pet but she told me in her behaviours that she was a lot more than that. First thing we did was herding, then IPO, and then Ringsport. Ringsport defined her and refined me as a trainer it's been one wild ride. 



Daniel Lybbert said:


> I have a mal cuz I like a bit crazy a bit sharp and a bit mean. Smart to boot. Faster harder. My chances are better with a mal.


As they would be with Czech line GSD vs a American Showline Shepherd. Like Daniel I prefer Malinois for the same reasons, maybe they are a reflection of their owners. :mrgreen: 

It boils down to what you are looking for on a personal level and what you want to do, then what is possible to do. Again across the breed (any breed) there is variances in character, workability there is no rhyme or reason to looking at a 7.5 week old pup and saying you are going to the worlds with it. You just don't know the journey that you are on with any animal. 

I bought my first Malinois as an active family pet. She showed me otherwise that she wasn't that. She did many destructive behaviours there was lots of damage to my house, cars, crates and to her teeth. I was lucky I found mentors in Herding, IPO and Ring and was able to turn that bottled up energy into something positive and got regional and national championships with her. 

My second Malinois is a good boy he is a son of my older female. But he isn't the same dog as his mother. I love him to death and we work hard in training but he isn't his mother when it comes to trainability for what I selected him for. I finally got a FR3 on him this past fall at 4 years old and it still isn't finished. I'm committed to him, others may have washed him or sold him to the police. He'd make a better PSD or family/estate guardian than a sport dog. You just don't know. So I just keep on training.


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## Chris Viscovich

I don't have a ton of experience but I'll share what I can.

Like Geoff stated above, I think that you can find a good match in any of the protection breeds, and sometimes you just have to work with the dog in front of you. My GSDs have been the easiest to train, live and work with. The rewards that the desired most were food/treats and positive attention (from just about everyone). They have never seem to get overstressed, are smart, motivated and loving. Rock solid dogs.

After evaluating many dogs of the protection breeds, for my current working dog I myself choose a 2 year old spayed female Mal. I love rising to a challenge and I knew that it wasn't going to be easy. I am super active (ultra x-country runner and Obstacle Course racer) and wanted a dog that I could train with. The Mals seemed to have the energy level that I was looking for. I also believe that I have the patience, time, work ethic and fortitude to work with Mals and take advantage of some of their desirable characteristics. She is very different from the GSDs I have owned. She is very energetic and over the top motivated for "playtime", balls, tugs, whatever we come up with. She is very serious and aloof to other dogs and suspicious of people. She is quirky around the house (not destructive), but circles around the house in patterns until commanded to relax (almost like someone with OCD). She is more reactive to the environment and changes therein. She has explosive speed, lightning quick reactions, superior agility and excellent body awareness. She is a very quick learner, very few repetitions are required for a desired behavior, given the proper reward. When we really turn up the pressure and frustration, she can get overstressed and sensitive. I am working on the shortcomings and encourage all of the positive.


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