# the "off switch"...genetics? training? both? please discuss



## chris haynie (Sep 15, 2009)

good morning WDF patrons,

I was recently in touch with the first owner of the Malinois i had at my place for a couple weeks. I spoke to him yesterday and found out that had been an outdoor farm dog before my buddy got her. I knew that he had kept her as a kennel dog but previously had no information on her formative years.

well after talking to her first owner i got to thinking that maybe the reason she was such a spaz in the house as because she had never really been inside before. she was fine in her crate and was a balst to train agility with but never ever settled inside even after 3 miles runs with me and the other dog and then a couple hours of training. 

do those of ya'll with lots of malinois/dutchie experience believe the "off switch" is a result of inhereted genetics from breeding? are their certain lines which consisently produce dogs that can mellow inside and are thier lines that produce dogs that never mellow inside?


do you believe it is a learned behavior that is the result of training the dog to chill out when work/training is not happening? 

it makes sense to me that the off switch i need in my working prospect would be a combination of both training and breeding but im a total newb still preparing for my first working sport dog and thats why i'm here asking questions like these. 

i would love to hear ya'll opinions based on your experiences with your working mals/dutchies. while everyones input is appreicated and valuable to me i would especially like to hear from those you who have been breeding working mals/dutchies. 
thanks,
chris h


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

I'm neither a breeder nor a expert but I think it's both genetics and training. There might even be a difference between males and females.


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## Tanith Wheeler (Jun 5, 2009)

When I got my male I chose a particular breeder partly because all of her GSDs were fairly calm until a ball appeared or they were asked to work.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

The ones that have an off switch, its located behing there right leg, you may have not found it yet!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Jody Butler said:


> The ones that have an off switch, its located behing there right leg, you may have not found it yet!


THANK YOU JODY....
I thought it was on the head!! 
You might want to check there too, it's probably not as good as the one on the back of the leg but if you hit it hard enough it works...


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## Jason Hammel (Aug 13, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> THANK YOU JODY....
> I thought it was on the head!!
> You might want to check there too, it's probably not as good as the one on the back of the leg but if you hit it hard enough it works...


LoL at both of you. "CHILL THE F OUT......Bonk"


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## Jack Roberts (Sep 5, 2008)

You just have to train the dog to behave in the house. You just make it real black and white for the dog. I do not believe in motivational training for house breaking. It is a prong collar and firm no to learn to leave things alone. When the dog does well then praises come but bad behaviors are dealt with swiftly and firmly. 

That means no training or playing with the dog in the house. I do not allow dogs to run in my house and teach the dog to lay down in their place. You don't bring out a tug or a ball in the house and play with the dog and then expect him to be calm in the house. Even if I bring out a tug or ball in the house, the dog knows that it is not time to play. He may get happy but he knows he has to wait until we get outside. 

It takes real consistency to get a solid house dog. I can leave my house for hours and do not have to worry about something chewed up or anything else such as defecating or urinating in my house. I spend at least 6 months with a dog on a leash and collar in the house beside me. You can get a dog to behave in a house because the behavior becomes so ingrained in the dog that he does it naturally. It reminds me of the Koehler thread that Don is doing. The dog has to behave and over time accepts the behavior that he has to do. My dogs have been happy and seem more relax to know how to behave in the house. Of course at first, there will be some resistance but it soon subsides and you get a much calmer dog. The dog will still light up outside but the behavior has been trained inside the house. 

It seems like a lot of laziness on peoples' part to put dogs in crates when they are older. I will keep a puppy in a crate when I can not watch him. I will also keep a crate up and put an older dog in it, if people come over who are scared of dogs or repairmen, etc.. It is easy to get a dog to do obedience but to train proper behavior in the household takes time and usually it is constant watching for the first 6-12 months. I have trained older dogs quicker but pups take a while. I have helped some people get their dog under control in the house in a month. It may not be laziness on peoples' part but not understanding how to train proper house behavior, so I should not make a general statement as far as everyone.

**I do not buy into the whole den idea of the crate. My current dog does not even lay in a dog house when outside. He likes to keep watch over the property and seems to prefer being out in the open.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Thank you Jack. I have brought this subject up several times and everyone keeps saying "Oh my dog is just to much dog". Todays training methods don't work unless you got the dog on a leash in front of you. Big terriers aren't exacly sleepers and I can leave mine with chicken on the counter or in the trash and they won't touch it.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

So what if it's not destructiveness or going to the bathroom that's the problem? What if it's just simply the fact that the dog cannot/will not be still, and just paces constantly?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Kristen Cabe said:


> So what if it's not destructiveness or going to the bathroom that's the problem? What if it's just simply the fact that the dog cannot/will not be still, and just paces constantly?


I would say that is breeding.


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## sam wilks (May 3, 2009)

I have had dogs that will not settle down and also ones that will lay right down when they come in. I think training is important but overall I think genetics are the biggest factor. Some dogs just will not settle. Even when you get them to lay down they are like a bomb waiting to go off as soon as someone gets up from their chair or walks into the room.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Maturity.....along with that switch location....


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Jack Roberts said:


> **I do not buy into the whole den idea of the crate. My current dog does not even lay in a dog house when outside. He likes to keep watch over the property and seems to prefer being out in the open.


3 out of my 4 dogs like to go into their crates of their own accord to lay down in or gnaw on a bone in or whatever. The one who won't (my female Mal) will go in her crate if I tell her, but she'd prefer to be laying by me or in the dog bed out in the living room instead. Perhaps it also helps that I have multiple dogs, so they all appreciate having their own "room."


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## Jack Roberts (Sep 5, 2008)

If a dog gets sick that is a different story but my dogs know better then to go in the house or touch my food. In fact, if a dog is starting to get sick they let me know by going to the door. I expect a dog to hold going to the restroom for at least 6-8 hours. I feed early in the morning and around 4:00 in the afternoon. 

All my dogs have been on a schedule. They start using the restroom at the same time. A good schedule with a dog can save you a lot of problems. Also, I never allow a dog to go the restroom in my house as a pup. The dogs only know going outside to use the restroom. My goal with a puppy or older dog is for the dog never to have an accident. The dog is on a leash and some type of correcting collar. They are taken out on a regular schedule outside. If I can't watch them as a young pup, I put them up. 

More than a couple of times things have come up and my dogs have been alone for 14 hours. No accidents or chewing of anything occurred. This was not fair to the dogs but things can happen.

I do not make excuses for dogs and expect them to mind and behave in the house. I have had dogs try to pace. I put them in a down stay and made them lay down. They will get over their anxiety. They soon learn to lay down on their own or they can be put into a down stay and made to mind. It is the dog's choice. I will keep a dog that wants to pace in a down stay for short periods of time at first and then increase the time. It is just a form desensitization. After a while, the dog will lay down on his own rather than being told. At least if he lays down on his own, the dogs gets to pick his own spot. It just take consistency in training. There is no magical off switch, just hard work training your dog to behave. Some dogs are easier to train but you still have to put the effort in.

It is all what you expect out of your dog. Do not make excuses for your dog. You make the dog behave in your house. You are supposed to be the leader not the dog. Not only will the dog be happier but easier to get along with, since he/she respects you. It also spills over into other training. When it is time to work, the dog is happy to do it and I think more obedient since he/she has to behave in the house.

**I think the most important thing is not to allow any playing in the house even from a young age. The house is where the dog is expected to be careful of everyone and not run around or play. It sounds harsh but the dogs are happier in the end. They know the boundaries and have their fun outside. You also will have a much more relaxed dog. I have seen videos of people having their dogs jump over couches and run around like maniacs on youtube. What are they telling the dog? You do not have to respect my house and can do as you please. After the running, pacing and jumping is no longer funny then they blame the dog. When all along it was the person who taught the dog to act like an ass in the house.


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## Jack Roberts (Sep 5, 2008)

Maren,

I just noticed your post after sending the last one. 

I do not agree with your statement about 3 out of 4 dogs liking their crates. The dogs might like their own place but staying locked in a crate for 8 hours is not what a dog would prefer. My dog may lay down for two hours in the same place but he will get up and stretch and walk around. 

I know that you keep your dogs in a crate and you may be biased towards crates. I use crates for potty training as puppies and to keep the pups out of things when I can not watch them. My goal is to only use the crate as a training device not as a permeant solution for housing a dog while you are gone. 

A lot of people get stuck at the crate stage of training their dogs. Crates were never meant to be a permeant housing solution. At least people use to keep their dogs in kennels. In a kennel a dog can move around more. If you leave a dog in a crate 8 hours a day, it can not be good for muscle tone or joints of a dog. It is just like a person laying in a bed all day. Muscles will atrophy. 

I remove the prong and leash from the dog after a dog is behaving in the house for a month with no corrections being needed. It should be the same thing with a crate. Leave the crate up so the dog can go get in it but just remove the door.

What really gets me about the whole crate movement now is that some people who use crates think it's cruel to tether or chain a dog but will put their dog inside a crate for 8-10 hours a day. It seems backwards to me.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

@jack

I can speak for others but in my situation I have two crates set up. When I go away for an extended period, I put one female rott and the mal away in crates. I do this to prevent fights between the two working dogs while I'm away. The second crate got set up for the female because she loved to sleep in the Mali crate. 

I don't know what you do for a living but I work from home most of the time. I run the dogs in the morning and they sleep all day long. They don't play, they don't horse around with each other, they just sleep for 8-10 hours. MOST of the time. I can find two if not 4-5 dogs squeezed into to two crate. They love their crates and it's purely their choice to go in there and sleep all day long. 

Muscle aren't going to atrophy over the course of a day as long as there is regular exercise.

My dogs don't seem to have an issue with being stuck in there crate during training days which when all is said and done lasts anywhere from 4-8 hour including the drive time and running errands before and after training. 

I don't think crates are a bad thing at least I don't see it in my situation.

As far as the off switch goes. I never do anything with the dogs in the house. There are no toys, there is no training...nothing. They understand it's chill time. When I want to bring them out I tell them to get ready for work and the two working dogs run to the back door and wait. Then I put them in my truck and drive to the club or drive down the street to the park and train.



Jack Roberts said:


> I do not agree with your statement about 3 out of 4 dogs liking their crates. The dogs might like their own place but staying locked in a crate for 8 hours is not what a dog would prefer. My dog may lay down for two hours in the same place but he will get up and stretch and walk around. I'm very consistent on what the dogs can and can't do in the house. To me this make them even more amped up when w go out to train. I think it also help that I have a few older dogs that do nothing but eat sleep and shit. They three older ones keep the three younger ones more mellow by example.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Jack Roberts said:


> Maren,
> 
> I just noticed your post after sending the last one.
> 
> ...


Eh, I dunno...on a lazy Saturday or Sunday (which hasn't happened lately), they'll often go into their crates and chill out of their own accord, without me locking them in. I mean, ideally, a dog could be running loose outside all day long like Lassie, but there are obviously hazards to doing so in a modern society. Dogs are supremely adaptable after all.

I used to let my female Mal be out by herself and the other three in the crate, but she got more uppitty with our female Rottweiler that way, I guess thinking it was special privileges, even though we still do NILIF in our house. So now all 4 are in the crate and it's been fine. No fights or scuffles in over 6 months and the only one in the past year was before we put her up in the crate very regularly. If I am going to be gone longer than 8 hours, either me or my husband will try to make it home or get a friend to let out the dogs as I don't want to deal with UTIs or accidents, particularly in my 10 year old and my 13 year old. Heck, even my cat is crated, though he gets his litterbox and a water bottle too.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Jack, that was a very good post. I, too, use the crate for the pup if I'm not able to look after him.

We live in a house so it stands to reason that our 2 dogs live with us. Initially, after the younger puppy's phase was over, I left them in the house together (not all rooms) but many people advised me not to, they being 2 males. I actually found that when alone, they had no problems but for peace peace of mind, I separate them although the others were never separated.

No problem, if we are out for more than 2 hours or so, one is downstairs and the other upstairs, both adequately exercised and obviously in no need to empty bladder or bowels.

Our Dog Club is holding a trial shortly and as we are in the scoring office, they'll be alone for 8 hours, at least. One upstairs, one downstairs. The older GSD is fine, with the other one I check there is nothing around to "catch" his attention.

I've read posts about pups being bought and then having to spend 8 hours in a crate??? The crate is not for this. If you want a pup and have no option but to crate it for 8 hours on a regular basis, you do not deserve a pup.

A Bernese Mountain Dog owner once told me that an adult male can be left alone for 24 hours without problem. lHave not tried it as yet!

One problem is often our younger GSD, 30 minutes exercise or 2 hours - he comes home with a head full of nonsense but I insist he "downs" and although I have to keep an eye on him while working on the computer, I insist he stays in "down" - crating is not a lesson!


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I think it can be either, or both. I've had pups, yes Malinois pups LOL, who at 10 weeks would happily just chill next to me for hours on end if I was watching a moving, or sleeping at night. Made me suspicious of the dogs drives that a pup could be so calm all the time LOL But this is one of those pups at 13 weeks http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RW2tSMgidVI and at 5 months http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNiIZd05gMc For him, the "off switch" was just part of his personality. He had some littermates who were the same way. 

I've had other dogs who were more go go go but they still learned to be good house dogs and have an off switch when needed. For those some of it came from training, and some of it just came with maturity. Some of my highest drive dogs, are some of my best/calmest house dogs. 

IMO if a dog is SO spun that it can never settle, even with consistent training and a calm environment, I have to wonder if there is something wrong with the dog. I'm not talking about a dog who is holding a down stay but quivering because there is a cat in the room, or you are at training, but a dog who in a calm/quiet environment still can't settle down but paces constantly, then when told to down/stay quivers for hours until they finally fall asleep from exhaustion. Sometimes what is wrong isn't mental though, but physical, a dog who is in pain is going to be restless, they can't help it, if they are moving around trying to find some relief.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I've read posts about pups being bought and then having to spend 8 hours in a crate??? The crate is not for this. If you want a pup and have no option but to crate it for 8 hours on a regular basis, you do not deserve a pup.


So those of us who work full time jobs outside the home (ie: most of the population) don't deserve the chance to own/raise a puppy? :-k [-X


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## Jack Roberts (Sep 5, 2008)

Hi Kristen,


I see nothing wrong with leaving a dog while at work. I do think there are better options than a dog in a crate for 8 hours or more. You can get a dog kennel at Lowes at a reasonable price or build a fence run for a pup. The pup can still get exercise outside and learns to go to the restroom outside.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Kristen Cabe said:


> So those of us who work full time jobs outside the home (ie: most of the population) don't deserve the chance to own/raise a puppy? :-k [-X


How can you raise a puppy when you leave it alone working full time ? I think there is not a lot more cruel than locking a dog up in a cage, what kind of existence is that for a living animal and one you (generic) expect/demand to function well.

I think it has been a very nasty fashion that has kicked off big style in the last twenty odd years these dog crates. Folks got a dog because they wanted to work/share/spend time with, not lock up and pull out when they had the time or inclination. Living like that, training wasn't an issue...it was the accepted done thing, it's called house training. at least where I come from, but sadly not so much anymore. I guess that's partly because folks are growing up these days thinking I WANT, so they get!

If you don't have the time for a dog, why get one?


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Thanks Maggie, I thought I was "cruel" not allowing "budding" handlers a pup whilst they were working 8/7.

I waited until I stopped working such hours. Hard, but geez, what do you get from a pup / dog that you only see for a few hours - and what does he get from being crated for the rest of the tiime?

I was 36 when I got my first dog here in Switzerland and had time to spend with it. You can't always have the "füüfer und Weggli"!


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Thanks Maggie, I thought I was "cruel" not allowing "budding" handlers a pup whilst they were working 8/7.
> 
> I waited until I stopped working such hours. Hard, but geez, what do you get from a pup / dog that you only see for a few hours - and what does he get from being crated for the rest of the tiime?
> 
> I was 36 when I got my first dog here in Switzerland and had time to spend with it. You can't always have the "füüfer und Weggli"!


I agree Gillian, I was very fortunate to be working from home for many years which allowed me time for my dogs which I comprised within many of my day to day activities. many folks these days due to the illustrious crate culture...one untrained dog just isn't quite enough!


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## Donna DeYoung (Jan 29, 2010)

Kristen Cabe said:


> So what if it's not destructiveness or going to the bathroom that's the problem? What if it's just simply the fact that the dog cannot/will not be still, and just paces constantly?


it's called a crate?
My 3 dogs developed a bad habit of coming into the house like a hurricane and running the full length of the laundry room, living room, and into the bedroom. By giving them a dog treat in the laundry room (and at first closing that door) I trained them to stick w/ me upon entering and not to have their fun race. They also got treats in their crates. So pretty soon it was a race to see who could get in their crate first. The GSD and dobe learned it very quickly, the basenji mix not so much so. But then again, basenjis are known to be hard to train. 

Then, whoever is calm is allowed to be free in the house. non calmies go back outside. and it starts over again.


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## Donna DeYoung (Jan 29, 2010)

I should add, my dogs are not kennelled - have a 2 acre yard, they work horses each day (herding) w/ me and only crate for quiet time at night if necessary.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

maggie fraser said:


> How can you raise a puppy when you leave it alone working full time ? I think there is not a lot more cruel than locking a dog up in a cage, what kind of existence is that for a living animal and one you (generic) expect/demand to function well.
> 
> I think it has been a very nasty fashion that has kicked off big style in the last twenty odd years these dog crates. Folks got a dog because they wanted to work/share/spend time with, not lock up and pull out when they had the time or inclination. Living like that, training wasn't an issue...it was the accepted done thing, it's called house training. at least where I come from, but sadly not so much anymore. I guess that's partly because folks are growing up these days thinking I WANT, so they get!
> 
> If you don't have the time for a dog, why get one?


I do think it is cruel to expect an 8 week old pup to hold its bladder and bowels for 8 hours in a crate. They can't physiologically be expected to do so without having an accident. But an 8 month old? Most all dogs should be fine by then. I've always heard the hours a pup can go is 1 hour for every month old it is, plus or minus one. All the pups I've either raised or fostered, I either found a way to take the pup with me or I came home at lunch. If I had to wait until I could be at home for a pup all day long, I'd never be able to get a dog. As soon as I come home, the dogs are excited to get out of the crate and be worked, just hang out in the backyard, or go out somewhere for some fun exercise. If they were in a kennel, they'd probably just bark, pace, and spin at anything that wandered by. I like the crate because it teaches them to just relax in a safe environment. 

Are there dogs that bark hysterically for hours, spin, or destroy themselves to get out of a crate? Absolutely and I've fostered about half a dozen of them. But most dogs can deal just fine. I guarantee the majority of working/performance dog people spend more time interacting with a dog than the pet dog people who stay at home all day long with the dog bored and underfoot. Quality =/= quantity for time. I also want to know what kind of jobs you guys have that let you not have to worry about it. Please share the love! :mrgreen:


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

_I guarantee the majority of working/performance dog people spend more time interacting with a dog than the pet dog people who stay at home all day long with the dog bored and underfoot. Quality =/= quantity for time._ 

Two wrongs don't make a right, and neither does one set a standard for the other. I also think you may have a hard time to guarantee that statement.

I'm not a fan of dog crates, it removes the need for training and manners and in doing so, robs the dog of an integrated existence. That's just my opinion, I think they are for the lazy, selfish and or incompetent owner lol :-D


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

I don’t think anyone who leaves a pup locked up for an 8 or 10 hour day should have it. I got a lot of friends who want a dog but there schedule doesn’t allow for it.
When I read this I thought the dog was a basket case for some reason
*So what if it's not destructiveness or going to the bathroom that's the problem? What if it's just simply the fact that the dog cannot/will not be still, and just paces constantly*? 

Then this explained it 
*


Kristen Cabe said:



So those of us who work full time jobs outside the home (ie: most of the population) don't deserve the chance to own/raise a puppy?

Click to expand...

*


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

double post


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

maggie fraser said:


> If you don't have the time for a dog, why get one?


So people who have a job shouldn't have a dog at all?! That's ridiculous


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Chris McDonald said:


> When I read this I thought the dog was a basket case for some reason
> *So what if it's not destructiveness or going to the bathroom that's the problem? What if it's just simply the fact that the dog cannot/will not be still, and just paces constantly*?
> 
> Then this explained it:
> *So those of us who work full time jobs outside the home (ie: most of the population) don't deserve the chance to own/raise a puppy?*



Chris, I don't have a dog that paces. I was only asking because it seems to be a common problem, especially with Malinois. Actually, I take it back; I technically do have a dog like that, but he doesn't live with me. He's a rescue dog in foster care with a woman who does not work and is with him almost 24/7. She has a service dog, and frequently takes him with her out in public. He gets lots of exercise and she's even trained him to do several things for her, so he is mentally stimulated as well. Yet, he still paces in the house.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

All my dogs, including my Mal (5 yrs) and my DS (1 yr) have an off switch in the house. I think it is learned, but that's just my limited experience. 

Ronan, my mal, was not crated as a puppy. He stressed so badly in the crate the first few times in there, including the 3 hour, put him in the crate and leave so he'll settle incident that I just stopped. I left him out and left the house the next time I needed to and nothing happened. When he was 7 months old I got a full time job and left him home with my other dogs loose in the apartment I lived in. I lost a few things to bored, chewing puppy, but no full scale destruction. Now, he's only crated in my vehicle at training. He's a very easy to live with dog. At the club, they find that hard to believe because he's such a spun up weenie when he's there.

Trevva, the DS, I had to crate as a puppy. I had a full time job and two older dogs with run of the house (Ronan and my labx), as much for her safety as for any other reason. I came home at lunch every day to let her out for the first six months. With her, it took longer for her to learn to settle inside. I would leave her out of her crate as much as possible when I could keep an eye on her. Sometimes, she just wouldn't settle, but as soon as I put her in her crate, she crashed. I guess like little kids that don't know how tired they are and are just running on adrenaline, she needed to be forced to chill. 

She's just over a year old now and is no longer crated at home, ever. While not as settled as the older dogs, she's pretty good for a year old DS. I'd be interested to know if her siblings are similar. Is it genetics or is it how they're raised? The flip side to that is how much working potential have I lost by letting her just be a dog?

I also think that I have good house dogs with an off switch because I make sure they get sufficient outlet for their energy. They get a good off leash run every morning and a bit of training and enough interaction that by the time I leave for work, they're ready to nap.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I have alweays wanted a horse to hunt off of and go into the back country. Did some checking on what was needed and what they required and I felt it was just more than I wanted to be tied down to. I decided not to get a horse and got a 4x4 that could be parked and ignored.


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

maggie fraser said:


> I'm not a fan of dog crates, I think they are for the lazy, selfish and or incompetent owner lol :-D


Wow Maggie- pretty powerful statement.

I have dog crates. I work from home. I train in Schutzhund. I own my home. I have a yard, and 2 6x6 out door kennels...... My training plan involves using crates daily. My GSD spends every night in his crate in the garage where he is safe and comfortable and sometimes a few hours during the day if I am not at home. 

I don't want him to be overly relaxed and sleepy around me unless we have finished training and had a long session or it is super warm, otherwise he is always on and ready to work. We have a working relationship. It works really well for us. Many handlers keep their competition dogs this way. My dog loves to work. Literally jumps into his harness/collar etc.

My AB's would literally kill each other if they were left out together- so we usually have AB in and one out or in the office crate/garage crat /kennel/ back yard etc. We play musical dogs all day and have for the last couple of years. 

So yeah I guess if we are "lazy, selfish and or incompetent" then I think you have a very screwed up view of many of the great people of the working dog comunity.

Julie


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## Jack Roberts (Sep 5, 2008)

I do not agree with the whole keep the dog in the crate to keep drive up and interest level in the handler good. It is a cruel thing to crate a dog that does not have the drive for work to try to get an animal to work. It reminds me of working a dog in defense who is not comfortable biting.

Either a dog has the drive for the work or does not. I really do not care if top trainers crate their competition dog. It could be they have more dogs then they can handle. It is also a money venture for a lot of top trainers. They keep a lot of dogs and so do not have the time to work with every dog. If you can't keep up with dogs and have to crate them to separate them then you may have too many dogs. I would rather see the animals kenneled than crated. 

I think Kadi's post pointed out about drive and ability to relax in the house. The dogs that she has noticed with the most drive are the most calm in the house. Their drive is not toned down because they are in the house instead of locked in a crate. Their drive is something available when the dog is allowed to turn it on. 

I agree with Maggie that people are just too lazy or do not how to train an animal to behave in the house. I expect my dogs to be able to go anywhere and behave. You do miss out on the relationship that is built by having the dog interact with you and not in a crate. 

Personally, the whole crate phenomenon and using it as a building drive device must of came from some breeders who were not breeding dogs capable of the work. Hence, the need to crate them up and give them attention only when training. A good dog can differentiate training and behaving at home. A good dog will work hard for you no matter what without being in a crate.

**If you think about some of the bordie collies in Ireland and Scotland who have been bred for work are not kept in a crate to keep drive up. The dogs naturally worked or more than likely culled.

Don, that was good point about a horse. I wish more people would consider the time involved in owning a dog. It seems that dogs have become collectables.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I agree with Julie...there's no way anyone who doesn't work from home, stays at home because their significant other works and they don't have to, or who has a job who allows the dog to be brought to work (i.e.-their boss is just really nice or they are professional dog trainers) could have a dog. Dogs are really adaptable creatures or they'd never have evolved along side us. Like I said, I think most people who care well for their working, performance, or even just active pet dogs by coming home from work/school and going out for training/exercise/fun is much better than folks who may be home all day, but otherwise not do anything enriching with their dog. I don't think it's mutually exclusive to be a good owner and to leave your dog at home in a crate for a reasonable time for their age.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

The irony… I don’t agree with crating a dog all day unless it is the way I do it. Sounds like lots of people have some crate guilt they are trying to make excuses for. “really adaptable” sounds like something a puppy mill owner would say.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

maggie fraser said:


> That's just my opinion, I think they are for the lazy, selfish and or incompetent owner lol :-D


Even though you live on a box and probably smell like onions..I love you maggie


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## chris haynie (Sep 15, 2009)

thanks for the input ya'll. 

while its an interesting discussion going on re: crates and puppies i would really like to hear more about peoples thoughts on genetics/training as they relate to having a mal or dutchie that can settle down inside. 


i would particularily like to hear what Mr. Suttle, Mrs. Skinner, and Mr/Mrs. Van Leewuen think on this matter. 

thanks,
chris

FWIW i am my own boss and run a canine related business. my dog goes to work with me most days and when he doesn't i live not 5 minutes from our production facitlity so i come home for lunch and a nice hard game of tug or retreive. the working prospect pup would come to work with us most days and when she doesn't i'd be home for lunch to check in on her. but that isnt really relevant to a discussion the thread was intended to have.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Chris McDonald said:


> The irony… I don’t agree with crating a dog all day unless it is the way I do it. Sounds like lots of people have some crate guilt they are trying to make excuses for. “really adaptable” sounds like something a puppy mill owner would say.


I think it's really cruel that we keep dogs in kennels, backyards, fences, tie outs, and chains. Don't you know that dogs are special creatures that should be allowed to run free to express all their normal and natural desires to the fullest extent? And let us let them breed with whoever they desire, because that won't stifle their biological imperative. And chase as many cars, livestock, children, and so on because they are just fullfilling their desires to keep a natural order of THEIR choosing. I would hate to impose any structure, discipline, or training on our little furry friends for their personal safety or the safety of the populace because they are unique and special snowflakes and any training is surely aversive and damaging to the human/dog bond.

Oh wait, time to go train my dog now...


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I think it's really cruel that we keep dogs in kennels, backyards, fences, tie outs, and chains. Don't you know that dogs are special creatures that should be allowed to run free to express all their normal and natural desires to the fullest extent? And let us let them breed with whoever they desire, because that won't stifle their biological imperative. And chase as many cars, livestock, children, and so on because they are just fullfilling their desires to keep a natural order of THEIR choosing. I would hate to impose any structure, discipline, or training on our little furry friends for their personal safety or the safety of the populace because they are unique and special snowflakes and any training is surely aversive and damaging to the human/dog bond.
> 
> Oh wait, time to go train my dog now...


This is coming from the one that said "Oh my God, you raise your dogs in the dirt!!" 

The best you can do is an extreme opposite of a crate as an example. They can be trained to live in the house, If you can't leave them alone because of fighting, there are larger kennel and fenced back yards. I am appauled that you can rationalize that crating them in carry crates is better than huge yards with trees and creeks and some freedom to live a life.


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## James Lechernich (Oct 20, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> This is coming from the one that said "Oh my God, you raise your dogs in the dirt!!"












As long as I live I'll never forget the dirt thread!


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> This is coming from the one that said "Oh my God, you raise your dogs in the dirt!!"
> 
> The best you can do is an extreme opposite of a crate as an example. They can be trained to live in the house, If you can't leave them alone because of fighting, there are larger kennel and fenced back yards. I am appauled that you can rationalize that crating them in carry crates is better than huge yards with trees and creeks and some freedom to live a life.


:lol: Just like a bloody terrier, you keep fixating on the dirt thing. It's not the dirt I disagreed with, if you recall. I don't like a sterile kennel environment. It's that you intentionally don't do anything with your pups until they're 4 weeks or whatever it is except keep them in the dirt lot that I disagree with.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

maggie fraser said:


> Two wrongs don't make a right, and neither does one set a standard for the other. I also think you may have a hard time to guarantee that statement.
> 
> I'm not a fan of dog crates, it removes the need for training and manners and in doing so, robs the dog of an integrated existence. That's just my opinion, I think they are for the lazy, selfish and or incompetent owner lol :-D


This is a ridiculous statement IMHO. Most likely from someone who can afford to stay home all day. Not I, or most of the working dog world I'd bet.

I brough up my puppy living in a crate when I wasn't home or when I was busy working at home. For the first few months he was out of his crate at least every two hours for play or potty. Then the time was increased until he could spend 8 hours in his crate without issue (around 6 months). He stayed in his crate when I wasn't home until he was two years old. Now I can leave him run the house without issue, has been this way for 1 1/2 years and not once has he destroyed anything.
He's a very happy dog that loves to work and enjoy's are time together as much as I do. No harm or fowl here. I'd bet he's stronger and happier than 9 out of 10 dogs in my country!


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

Is this the working dog forum or the touchy feelly my dog is a human forum? You guys are all worried about the wrong kind of immigration.... :-& We are suppose to be on the same team in the "big" picture in Working Dogs.

The ridicule for utelizing a crate or a kennel is ****ing ridiculous.

How many "PC" PETA freaks have joined the forum recently? I guess it is time to crawl back under my rock (better yet crate). The proverbial excrement is getting deep in here.

Peace!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Originally Posted by Gillian Schuler 
Thanks Maggie, I thought I was "cruel" not allowing "budding" handlers a pup whilst they were working 8/7.

I waited until I stopped working such hours. Hard, but geez, what do you get from a pup / dog that you only see for a few hours - and what does he get from being crated for the rest of the tiime?

I was 36 when I got my first dog here in Switzerland and had time to spend with it. You can't always have the "füüfer und Weggli"!
I agree Gillian, I was very fortunate to be working from home for many years which allowed me time for my dogs which I comprised within many of my day to day activities. many folks these days due to the illustrious crate culture...one untrained dog just isn't quite enough!

So here we have another good reason why dogs have went into the shitter, and why chicks **** up dog sport. So we all have to be at an age where we are way past our prime to train and own a dog, or independantly wealthy ? This is one of the top ten dumbest things ever written on this board. THe two of you are cracked.

I keep pups in crates. I also don't think that you have a clue what is cruel or not cruel. If I have to work for 10 hours, oh well. It is a ****ing dog and you have lost your ever loving mind to tell me that I am abusing a pup for having it in the crate that long.

Dogs don't really think. Dogs don't have self pity. I put a bone in there or not, and go off to work, and when I come back, we do something, or maybe not. Must have lost your mind telling anyone that they can't have a dog because they have to work. ****ing peta lover. My dogs do what I tell them to do, they live the way I tell them to live, because that is the way it has to be. 

The off switch is whored out to make shit dogs seem better, and what it does or doesn't mean varies so much from person to person it is not worth discussing.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

This is ****ing priceless. All the idiots showed up for me to beat on. 

Quote: It's that you intentionally don't do anything with your pups until they're 4 weeks or whatever it is except keep them in the dirt lot that I disagree with.

How many litters have you bred or raised again ?? Oh thats right, **** all. Kinda like watching the cluster**** you are with a leash. Thats right, I said it. You know **** all about the leash, and **** all about breeding. 

The worst part is you have to ask help for the leash, which is the easy part, and after how many years of reading this board you never read or saw how to properly do a drag in, or hold the leash ??

THEN the hard part, you think that it means something if you don't do anything with a pup before 4 weeks, and AGAIN, have no experience whatsoever with breeding. How do you get the leash right ?? You LISTEN to people that know better what they are doing than you do. Guess what, the breeding thing is the same. 

You are going to make a fine vet. LOL


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> :lol: Just like a bloody terrier, you keep fixating on the dirt thing. It's not the dirt I disagreed with, if you recall. I don't like a sterile kennel environment. It's that you intentionally don't do anything with your pups until they're 4 weeks or whatever it is except keep them in the dirt lot that I disagree with.


LOL, Maybe you should have said that was what bothered you then. The pups are actually in dog houses until about 4 weeks, not the dirt. I suppose I should have been doing feel good stuff ENS so I could put it on my web to sell pups.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> This is ****ing priceless. All the idiots showed up for me to beat on.
> 
> Quote: It's that you intentionally don't do anything with your pups until they're 4 weeks or whatever it is except keep them in the dirt lot that I disagree with.
> 
> ...


You're damn right I'll make a fine vet as I always want to learn. And how many other vets do you know even train in protection sport? I know of very, very few.

So because I haven't bred any litters means I can't have any preferences for how I want pups raised? And that makes sense how? :-k The market for pups is consumer driven for what the consumer wants, otherwise the breeder is stuck with a bunch of extras. 

Learning stuff from reading the boards is fine (and I have learned a lot over the years), but doing protection from reading the boards or even watching a DVD or YouTube videos are like learning how to do martial arts or surgery from a book or DVD. Not much help if you don't get feedback from someone in person and maybe even counterproductive.

Plus like I said on the other thread, no one hardly ever seems to want to post very many "work in progress" videos for feedback much anymore cause everyone's probably too insecure or worried about getting lambasted instead of getting constructive advice. Sheesh, in one thread, you go from being helpful to going off on my decoy cause he called it stick work instead of baton, though it's a clatter stick and not actually a baton. Jeff, I know that in some weird way, you want to be helpful, but right or wrong, it's probably also why some decoys/helpers or clubs don't allow posting of videos onto the boards or onto YouTube unless it's a trial.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> LOL, Maybe you should have said that was what bothered you then. The pups are actually in dog houses until about 4 weeks, not the dirt. I suppose I should have been doing feel good stuff ENS so I could put it on my web to sell pups.


Pretty sure I did say it at the time, but I know one tends to not read every word of a long post during a heated discussion. I don't agree 110% with the hygiene hypothesis, but I believe it has a lot of merit, pups or children.

I also realized not too long ago that when I am talking about ENS, since I first heard of it from the mouse/rat literature in grad school and not even in dogs, Battaglia's Superdog protocol is ENS, but not all ENS is in the Superdog protocol. I was of course intrigued when I heard it worked for dogs too, but "early neurological stimulation" isn't always one and the same with the Superdog protocol. I say that because in the mouse/rat literature that I was familiar with, you don't need to do the 5 steps to see a difference in the pups, you just take them away from the dam for a few minutes to be weighed, etc.

The reason this occurred to me that this was a miscommunication problem was Jeff went off on me on another thread for picking a pup from a breeder who doesn't do "ENS." I talked to her about this 3 years ago (still have the original PM even) and while she doesn't do the exact Superdog protocol to a T, she does do early neurological stimulation with the pups, which is obviously just fine by me as I of course got the pup. Another problem with forums instead of discussing things in person...


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Just glad you didn't choose law school.

Consumers know **** all, and will swallow hook line and sinker all the fluffy stuff that was supposedly done with their dogs. There is absolutely no proof that ENS does anything at all. (brilliantly done as far as a thesis, bla bla bla DOCTORATE ! ! ! ! ! YAY ) but because they have no idea of what they are looking at, or talking about, their ego demands that they come up with SOMETHING. LOL 

I did none of the ENS program with Ash and Junior Mint for two weeks. What your babbling about ENS is somehow your dog is better because his feet were tickled. Wanna try and prove that ?? 

So, I guess you are all butthurt because I said something about his decoy work. Who taught him how to do this ?? I doubt that he is that upset or emotional about it. Otherwise I am sure he would have said something to me about it. 

Lambasted ?? Is that a cooking term ? 

You either do ENS the way it is planned out, or you are not doing ENS the way that Battaglias scam works. LOL Doing half the program doesn't count. Picking up the puppy is not his scam, although one could call it early neurological stimulation. LOL

Rats are not dogs. Your arguement with a few of us on here has nothing to do with rats. It doesn't work that way, and the fact that you think that breeding rats is equivalent to breeding dogs is just goofy.

Nice ego. You admit to knowing nothing, but want to argue so that somehow you just seem less of a dumbass. You have to admit that your arguement is simply ego driven, as you have nothing else to draw from. No experience, and even better when given FREE advice, you are off looking the gift horse in the mouth.


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## Guest (Jun 10, 2010)

> The market for pups is consumer driven for what the consumer wants, otherwise the breeder is stuck with a bunch of extras.


Wow.

It would behoove a _dishonest_ breeder to say he did this stuff, but didn't actually bother...at all. Now we're talking about whose burden it is to (dis)prove what the hell you're supposed to be seeing as a result.

On the other hand, if someone said they _didn't _bother doing it...do you think he'd be concealing the fact that he did put forth the effort to _actually_ do so?

Here is a template of logical fallacies laid over ENS. Crazy how many actually apply here.

Burden of proof

_Bill: "I think that puppies benefit from ENS._
_Jill: "What is your proof?" _
_Bill: "No one has been able to prove that puppies don't benefit from ENS._

_Bill: "I think that we should help puppies by administering ENS._
_Jill: "I think that would be a waste of time considering the known degree of genetic influence."_
_Bill: "How can anyone be against helping puppies?_

Confusing cause and effect:

_It is claimed by some people that healthier puppies are created by ENS. After all, many puppies who are very healthy have been exposed to ENS. Thus, it follows that the cause of healthy puppies is the ENS. So, ENS is key to healthy puppies._

Questionable cause:

_Joe breeds a litter of puppies, but is warned of the consquences of ignoring them. He laughs at the suggestion and breeds anyway. Several of the puppies are nervous and skittish. When he breeds again, he administers ENS hoping to avoid further problems._

Biased sample:

_An online ENS clique decides to run a poll to determine what Americans think about ENS. Jane is assigned the task of setting up the study. Jane asks a bunch of breeders she knows (who use ENS) to respond. She is very pleased to find out that 100 % of those surveyed favor ENS and she tells her friends that the vast majority of Americans favor ENS._

Hasty Generalization:

_Jill is at a schutzhund club looking at dogs. A puppy she sees really knocks her socks off. As she listens, she hears the owner/breeder mention how important ENS is. Jill loves the puppy and concludes that ENS must be worth doing._

Post Hoc

_Jane breeds a shitty litter. Based on advice from ENS advocates, Janes breeds two different dogs but includes ENS. The puppies are not as nervous. Jane tells her buddies how well it worked._

Appeal to fear:

_It wouldn't be a good idea to skip ENS. If you do, your dog might not reach it's full potential. Now don't you agree that you want your dog to reach its full potential?_

Spotlight fallacy:

_Bill: "Man, I can't wait to get my ENS raised puppy. It will be healthy and confident_
_Jill: "Not neccesarily."_
_Bill: "Sure it will. Everytime I see someone mention their ENS protocol, they are displaying healthy confident puppies._
_Jill: "Sure, that is what they show but some dogs turn out nervous and crippled despite it. ENS does not always create healthy and happy puppies, but that is definately what ENS advocates will display to the public._


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## chris haynie (Sep 15, 2009)

wow this has become interesting i guess. maybe it would have been more interesting to me if i had started a thread asking for Maren Bell Jones, and others, philosphy on safe dog containment and/or who is in a situation to raise a working pup w/ regards to thier work schedule. 

But i didn't so i'd like to move the discussion back in a direction that is more relevant to my original questions. 

the mal i fostered wasnt one of these "quivering constantly from nervous energy types" but anything that remotely resembled an attempt to play or train inside set her off. 

I dont train my border collie mix in the house. we dont play in the house (except for stupid search games with the weather is terrible and only then its to exercise his little pea brain for a bit) but this mali was amped up anytime anything happened that might maybe be construed as an attempt to play. my dog was a rescue and came to me "on" all the time. it took a few weeks of teaching him that its unacceptable to run around inside, that playtime is outside, and that when i say tell him to "chill" i mean it. 

if i was washing dishes and she (the foster mal) could she'd start trying to tug the ****ing dishrag. if i picked up a tug or a ball she'd go apeshit, while my border collie x would just go wait at the door. she did pace alot and insted of actually chillin when it was time to chill she'd just ****ing pace the house. as soon as a leasah came out she went into the "bark spins" where she'd bark her happy yap bark and spin around like a top while barking. 

I spoke to her first owner again yesterday and i am now almost 100% sure her apeshit in the house nature was a result of her first owner doing jack shit with her and her living as an outside farm dog for her first three years. 

oelshen, what do you think on the genetics/training aspect of having a high drive working mal/dutchie that can settle inside?

does anyone know of any mali/dutchie lines that consistently produce dogs that are not easy to live with as house dogs even with consistent and early "house dog" training? 

i would still like to hear what Mrs. Skinner, Mr. Suttle, and Mr/Mrs. van leuween think on this matter. 
thanks,
chris


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

behaving is the house is a learned behavior. When the dogs get nuts I yell at them and they stop. If the Mal gets stupid and thinks the breakfast bar or kitchen table is a spring board then there are consequences as in BODY SLAM to the ground. He learned well over a year ago that pretending to be a cat in the house = something he doesn't want to attempt again. 

A few weeks ago the two males thought it was fun to piss on the couch. They don't think it's fun anymore. Now most of the the time, they just sleep in the crates (their choice) or they are by my feet.

I think people are too afraid to get a little hard on their dogs. I'm still very much a pet person but I have no problems cracking skulls when I need to.


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## Jack Roberts (Sep 5, 2008)

Amen Chris,

Being controlled in the house is a learned behavior. The worse correction my dog received was for attempting to lift leg on my couch. Let's just say the thought has never crossed his mind again. 

I do the same thing with my food. I can leave steak on the table or any other food. All my dogs have known not to touch my stuff. 

The mistake I think a lot of people make is treating their "working dog" like the dog is going to break. If your dog is from the pound would you let it get away with the same things? No, you would put your foot in the dog's ass for acting up around the house. You have to do the same thing with your working dog. In fact, the working dog should take the correction just fine if he /she is bred well. A "working dog" should not be a prince or princess of the house. It is still a dog and needs to be dealt with like a dog. How many people get their working pup and come on here talking about not messing up their pup. You hear all the advice, don't do this, don't do that,etc.. Just let the dog be a pup and teach the pup manners. I do not know how people use to raise working dogs before all these new ideologies on dog raising came about (sarcasm).

If your dog is going in your house, chewing on your things, grabbing food, jumping on counters, your dog just does not respect you. By keeping the dog in a crate to keep him from doing these things does not change the fact that the dog does not respect you. You have a leadership problem when a crate is needed after having a dog for more than 1 1/2 years and you have to keep it in a crate while your gone to keep the dog from tearing up your things.

I have treated all my dogs the same. You respect my family and my house or suffer consequences. It is pretty simple philosophy. 



Crates:

I see nothing wrong with crates used as a training tool but keeping a 2 year and older dog in a crate while gone for hours instead of a kennel, tethered (chained) or in dog run is ridiculous.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Chris Michalek said:


> behaving is the house is a learned behavior. When the dogs get nuts I yell at them and they stop. If the Mal gets stupid and thinks the breakfast bar or kitchen table is a spring board then there are consequences as in BODY SLAM to the ground. He learned well over a year ago that pretending to be a cat in the house = something he doesn't want to attempt again.
> 
> A few weeks ago the two males thought it was fun to piss on the couch. They don't think it's fun anymore. Now most of the the time, they just sleep in the crates (their choice) or they are by my feet.
> 
> I think people are too afraid to get a little hard on their dogs. I'm still very much a pet person but I have no problems cracking skulls when I need to.


 
8):twisted:


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## Guest (Jun 10, 2010)

genetics? training? both?

In the absence of a neurological disorder, all things being considered...
*both*


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

My bad for not having the time to read all the posts on this thread..... so you can yell at me after and say "we went over that" lol

Again, I have a different opinion I guess than some. ..... imagine that lol.... when I hear on/off in the house I dont think of a training issue (jumping on counters, eating things etc) or trained vs non-trained. I picture a dog where even in a down is panting heavily maybe fidgeting too and just cant straight out relax or takes longer to relax than others. I have some dogs that the moment they are in the house its like they go into some level of sedation...sleeping while sitting up lol....... .then others that breath heavily and take more time to "slow it down", not too different from some people 

t


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Just glad you didn't choose law school.
> 
> Consumers know **** all, and will swallow hook line and sinker all the fluffy stuff that was supposedly done with their dogs. There is absolutely no proof that ENS does anything at all. (brilliantly done as far as a thesis, bla bla bla DOCTORATE ! ! ! ! ! YAY ) but because they have no idea of what they are looking at, or talking about, their ego demands that they come up with SOMETHING. LOL


Did you know I had my spot in law school through an early acceptance program from my undergrad, but turned it down at the last minute to do grad school instead? Best decision I ever made. :lol:

I agree, but the demand for any product, widgets or puppies, *is* driven by the consumer and the market, like it or not. 



> I did none of the ENS program with Ash and Junior Mint for two weeks. What your babbling about ENS is somehow your dog is better because his feet were tickled. Wanna try and prove that ??


See below.



> So, I guess you are all butthurt because I said something about his decoy work. Who taught him how to do this ?? I doubt that he is that upset or emotional about it. Otherwise I am sure he would have said something to me about it.
> 
> Lambasted ?? Is that a cooking term ?


lam·baste (l







m-b







st







)_tr.v._ *lam·bast·ed*, *lam·bast·ing*, *lam·bastes* _Informal_ *1. * To give a thrashing to; beat. See Synonyms at beat.
*2. * To scold sharply; berate.

No, I'm not at all "butthurt." He can defend himself if he likes. But here's the thing...we all know you love Mondio and you want more people to join ringsport, which is fine. But if people post videos where either they or their dog is a work in progress and they get ridiculed just cause they don't know, nobody is going to want to post video any more and no learning and sharing is going to take place. And right or wrong, more clubs or decoys/helpers will tell the people they train with they aren't allowed to post training videos. 

Plus if people new to dog sport see posts like that, what motivation do they have to try something new? And then everybody wonders why hardly anyone under 35 wants to do any dog sport other than maybe agility. I'm not saying you need to be a marshmallow, Jeff, but you have it in you to be constructive without being an arse.






> You either do ENS the way it is planned out, or you are not doing ENS the way that Battaglias scam works. LOL Doing half the program doesn't count. Picking up the puppy is not his scam, although one could call it early neurological stimulation. LOL
> 
> Rats are not dogs. Your arguement with a few of us on here has nothing to do with rats. It doesn't work that way, and the fact that you think that breeding rats is equivalent to breeding dogs is just goofy.
> 
> Nice ego. You admit to knowing nothing, but want to argue so that somehow you just seem less of a dumbass. You have to admit that your arguement is simply ego driven, as you have nothing else to draw from. No experience, and even better when given FREE advice, you are off looking the gift horse in the mouth.


I don't think you read what I said. Early neurological stimulation would probably be broadly defined as a stressor that any animal experiences postnatally that they wouldn't normally experience otherwise just being with their dam and littermates which changes the physiological stress response of the animal. Battaglia's Superdog protocol fits within to this, but the Superdog protocol is not all encompassing for ENS. Ya'll have joked about docking tails being ENS. And yeah, technically it is. However, I'd like to hear from Battaglia some more of his rationale for developing the particular protocol he came up with.

I don't know what you mean about looking a gift horse in the mouth. I said thanks (and so did Grayson) on the thread. We've had a couple more sessions since the video last weekend and have incorporated some of it. I appreciate constructive criticism.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

SO are we talking about the off switch on dogs or on people?

Ok - back on topic - You know my dog would go whacko on the boat barking and spinning and frothing at the mouth [doing scentwork for submerged HR] --problem was, this was before we ever hit what could have plausibly been the target scent - it was just frustration.

After it did not resolve after multiple sessions, I took him way out of the scent area during one session and yanked a knot into his neck and made him settle in the boat and he calmed right down and now knows that he does not get all worked up on the boat unless he is in scent. Several people had all kinds of suggestions that did not work but a clear correction did. So I am kind of tuned into these responses that you can control some of this.

I think it is related. He was a crate spinner and is actually missing part of his tail from it but has learned to settle.


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

the original question...

On/Off to me is "genetic". I dont consider a "learned" behavior to be part of the on/off switch... the dog can either easily settle or it cant, I am not of the belief that you can train it out.... but maturing helps.....

BUT if we want to include learned behaviors then YES "training" or "both" 

JMO.... 

t


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

chris haynie said:


> i would still like to hear what Mrs. Skinner, Mr. Suttle, and Mr/Mrs. van leuween think on this matter.
> thanks,
> chris



FWIW, my DS house dog is from Mike Suttle. No idea if she's typical of what he breeds, or if I got the special one.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

We don't have dogs in the house, all are kennel dogs.

I think it is both, my first dog, a pedigreed mali was a house/sport dog. he must be crated to give him (and me) some rest, he kept on pacing other wise.
The dogs we have now, take their rest in their kennel beds/ in the kennel in the car in between trainingsessions. The males more as the females.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Maren, did you ever think of it as a screening process ?? 

I hate pussy people. I have a hard time being around their little PC asses. I swear, they go out and get little ****** dogs on purpose, and then go out and compete with them, and then get all butt hurt, and then advocate making the sport easier. (Mondio) 

Haynie, you have had several opportunities to go out to Rick Rutt's place and figure some of this stuff out in person, and you are a no show. 

Even if they explained it to you, you still are not going to get it. THis is why you need to show up when you say you are going to show up.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Maren, did you ever think of it as a screening process ??
> 
> I hate pussy people. I have a hard time being around their little PC asses. I swear, they go out and get little ****** dogs on purpose, and then go out and compete with them, and then get all butt hurt, and then advocate making the sport easier. (Mondio)


Wait a sec...you mean *you* are now the official screener for who gets to play in Mondio? I thought you were running NARA now, not Mondioring.  Who said anything about making it easier? I love a challenge. If I didn't, I'd already be a lawyer by now making six figures as a patent attorney. But everybody needs to start as a newb somewhere sometime. I'm pretty sure even you didn't fall out of the womb with a leash in hand.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I am the KING of nara, and if you are going to use my patented nara affextion in a post, you must refer to me as "My Leige".


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## Kerry Foose (Feb 20, 2010)

To throw another perspective at this, are you really asking how to help your current rescue or are you thinking you want to avoid this in the purchase of a new pup?

The way I see it, is that you could go back to the breeder(if known) and have this non-confrontational discussion about their genetics and what they have shown in past litters or if they have any info on the litter mates temperaments. Step two would be to rule out any medical issue that could be causing your rescue to react this way in the house. If it were me, I would kennel the dog outside and evaluate its behavior in that circumstance and compare it to what it is currently doing inside with the same stimulus. Also look at the day it came to you and re-evaluate its behavior today... same, better, worse...this way you have a primer to readjust your strategy.
In your rescue dog you are doing damage control. While in a new pup it would preventative shaping.
There is a difference. I can't answer the question of genetics versus behavior, but I can tell you this...judge the dog/pup in front of you and deal with what you have on the other end of the leash. Pups are a crap shoot, ya never _TRULY_ know what you're gonna get. Do the best to select the gentics that you desire, but it is not the end all be all in my opinion.
Well best of luck to ya. And one more suggestion from a non-peta, pet lover, working dog owner - try acupuncture to relieve the anxiety.I know it sounds nuts, but it truly does work.
Kindly,


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Maren, while I did not fall out of the womb with leash in hand, I can tell you that I did not argue with the people my father was paying good money to, simply because of my ego.

Many people on here, (not you) want all the good stuff, and none of the bad stuff. Yes, we all look like idiots doing dog training in the beginning, so what. Then, we look like idiots AFTER we have passed the N00B stage. It just is what it is. 

I will put it in simple terms for you, this is your ENS. You have to go through it, or you will never become a better dog trainer.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I am the KING of nara, and if you are going to use my patented nara affextion in a post, you must refer to me as "My Leige".


I think you mean "My Liege." :razz:

Oh, I don't mind that "oi, you suck!" phase because I know it invariably has to happen at some point. Maybe the first couple months of training, maybe that first trial. Either way, it is erm... "character building." I usually stick it through though. I rarely ever commit to doing something without following through. That's why I didn't do hardly any formal dog training my first 2.5 years of vet school. Didn't have the time to put in as much effort as would have been required, so why do something half assed? At least now, I have some rotations that are sorta conducive to training more.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I before E except after G. My kingdom, my spelling.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I before E except after G. My kingdom, my spelling.



Isn't it I before E except BEFORE G, my leige?


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Isn't it I before E except BEFORE G, my leige?


Ask Keith Jenkins.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Isn't it I before E except BEFORE G, my leige?


I like that Connie. Two stars for you. LOL


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

My kingdom dammit.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Teaching a spaz in the house to become a well contained spaz in the house via lessons provided, doesn't mean you've developed an "off switch". Is the dog truly at ease, or is it obvioius there's a bundle of surpressed energy under the surface?

I think the dog that can open that valve wide and deflate that energy, and gain it back again faster than you can suck in a breath, has a clear "on/off switch".

The quality of it's self-control is certainly improved with maturity through learning, but the underlying ability is genetic, IMO.

There might be a wide variety in differences between the thresholds of the switch and the swiftess of the behavior change, as well as the extremities of each behavior.

My herding dog is a continually "unsettled" dog outside the home, and always well settled within the home. But funny,_ I don't think of her having an on/off switch at all._


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