# Nickie von Ehret



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Nickie von Ehret is from the Faro/Sasha litter, perhaps my favorite breeding yet. Every pup was outstanding, and as usual I didn't "pick" her, she was simply the last remaining pup of the litter. Nicke has a same~age companion from Mike Talkington's 2-3 breeding on Tom, but I had her out with Boo this morning just to get some pictures.


----------



## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Nice looking girl she is....looks like Boo put up with her for a while....like the "stop that" picture.


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Yeah, he's pretty tolerable with little ones, and she's pretty aggressive. I almost forgot, this little video clip I made last month of her http://www.ehretgsd.com/nickie062008.wmv (2.3MB)


----------



## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Very nice. I noticed her ears are bigger than Boo's and also her eyes darker. Looks like she will be a doggie bitch. Nice big blocky head.


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Just like her mom, with wide-based ears.









This was a month ago...


----------



## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Yup moms a handsome bitch. Your dogs are very pretty Daryl. I just not know much about DDR or Czech lines. I might keep my eye on your Hutch, when he is of breeding age though. ;-)


----------



## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

> I have always been impressed with your dogs, she looks great!!


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Thanks  Hutch will be 2 months short of eligible for his BH when they hold the next nearby trial, so I'll have to find another trial, to plan for his SchH1 next year.

Believe it or not, there were a few pups a smidge prettier than Nickie, but I am very pleased to have her. She has not yet become accustomed to the crate, and has been very vocal about it for a month now! Her aptitude for jumping, climbing, and contortionist skills have amazed me.


----------



## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

VERY nice looking dog and pup(s)!

Makes you wonder what the showline folks see in those roached backs or excessive angulation.


----------



## Jamielee Nelson (Apr 24, 2008)

Now that is an amazing looking pup! I only hope my new puppy is 1/2 that purdy in coloring ( not to mention working ability)


----------



## Jamielee Nelson (Apr 24, 2008)

Daryl Ehret said:


> Yeah, he's pretty tolerable with little ones, and she's pretty aggressive. I almost forgot, this little video clip I made last month of her http://www.ehretgsd.com/nickie062008.wmv (2.3MB)


 good video not quite sure about the music though lol I had to mute it have way through :-k


----------



## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Makes you wonder what the showline folks see in those roached backs or excessive angulation.


Last week at the Dog sport club we had 3 conformation people (2-GSD the other a Rotty person) out to check out the dog sports and I was sitting there like a fly on the wall listening to the nonsense coming out of these girls. All I can say is they are from a different planet ...

Daryl .. All I can say is if I was in the market for a GSD I'd have you on speed-dial! I love the fact that you are not only the breeder but that your breeding dogs are HOT by yourself as well. A tip of the hat to you sir!


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Thank you, and I hope that will be a growing trend for my program, but I'll still scope for good outside lines. I was so pleased with what we received from Tiekerhook, and my wife wanted one for herself, but Koos said it would have to wait. So I located another breeder (of KNPV Dutch Shepherd and Malinois) who was doing a 2-2 breeding on Nick with Max Tiekerhook, and was dumbfounded when he stated "I am not a fan of the GSD at all, but the Tiekerhook lines are nice sometimes." If he'd like to part with his Nick daughter, I'd probably take him up on it!


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I had to work hard for these two pics, she just never stills for even a second.


----------



## Mike Di Rago (Jan 9, 2009)

Daryl,
Very nice and I can't wait to see him work. Keep us posted
Mike


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

If she works as good as she looks to me.......................=D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I'm trying to get her involved with herding through some local contacts. It's what I think she has the strongest aptitude for, as well as scenting/tracking.


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Getting better. My action pics are usually too blurry, I'm ready for a faster camera.


----------



## Jenn Schoonbrood (Oct 31, 2008)

She's absolutely gorgeous! Have you had her on stock at all? You mentioned she showed aptitude... I'd love to see some herding pictures of her in the future. =D>


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

No, I haven't. She is going with me on wednesday to visit a vet tech who does border collie herding, and give me a fairer evaluation of her temperament for the work. I know little about herding, and want to get involved, but the clubs I've found so far, are breed specific and not for gsd's.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Be forewarned!
Many of the BC folks think all breeds should herd the way their BCs do. 
Expect to se a bit of gripping with a GSD. It WILL come under control.
Also expect to see drives that no sleeve has been able to draw out.  This is what they were originally bred to do and that will be quite evident with a good dog and an evaluator that understands the GSD. :wink: 
I've never seen anything that could make Thunder shake like a leaf, waiting to go play with the "fuzzy toys". :lol: :lol:


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Boy she's gorgeous. Can't wait to hear about her herding exploits. Where in CO are you located. I think Carol Lucero is in CO. There are a couple of bouv herders in CO as well. Carol is one of my favorite BC folks 

Terrasita


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Thanks Bob, you sort of confirmed the vibe I thought I was getting about BC folk. I understand there'll be some differences, and suppose they might disapprove. I'm in the northern front range, Larimer or Weld county (Loveland/Ft.Collins/Greeley), so I'm most open to any opportunities nearby.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Daryl, if you can get some videos or pictures of her, I'd love to see. Hopefully they'll know they need a small pen with sheep that aren't generally flighty. However, expect them to be reactive since they probably haven't seen anything that looks like Nickie before. Let me do some digging, there should be some all breed action in your area.

Terrasita


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I'd sure appreciate it. I couldn't find anything myself, and the vet tech called me today and said the same. I've inquired with a couple locals that own livestock and herding dogs (not gsd's), but I can't seem to get anywhere. Worse case, I suppose I could buy a few sheep and get some videos & books. But I'd still rather have an experienced eye on hand, and realtime feedback.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Cannot for the life of me remember the name, but there was a woman east/southeast of you that did herding with all breeds. She was very good and I saw Rotts and GSD and took my Aussie there for a couple of months.

I think she is a judge.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

SHe was north of brighton now that I am thinking of it.


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Brighton's about 20 min. from me, that'd be great. I found a group in Wellington, which might be an hour away.

From what I can tell, there's two basic herding organizations.

*Continental Divide Herding Association* (Fort Morgan?)
http://www.akc.org/events/herding/continental_divide/2006/

*Northern Colorado Herding Cooperative* (Wellington)










The one in Wellington seems to have followed either *AKC* or *AHBA* guidelines at different times, frequently trialing in April of each year.

Appearantly, these two organizations got together in Wellington to conduct a *Herding Instinct Test *for the public on March 1st, but I'll give them a call to learn more.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

AKC herding is (generally) a handler's game. In other words the dog can be trained to go throught the mechanics and do the job.
AHBA is more about the dog's natural ability. 
Terrasita could explain that better then me.


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Well, I'll be going out sunday to visit with the affiliated group on their monthly get together, and she'll be evaluated the following wednesday. If all looks good, we'll have a regular training routine on wednesdays. I'm pretty thrilled at the opportunity to develop this dog, and to broaden my personal experience.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

It's a blast!


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Funy thing, I could probably go back and drive to her house, but cannot for the life of me remember her name.

It was about 5 miles north of Brighton. Still cannot come up with the name. Killing me ! ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,)


----------



## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

I think thats really cool that your going to try some herding. I'd like to get more into that too. It is hard to find somewhere to go train...

So far Baden likes playing with moocows but I really don't know what the hell I'm even doing. LOL


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Daryl:

Here is one response that I received:

if (typeof YAHOO == "undefined") { var YAHOO = {};}YAHOO.Shortcuts = YAHOO.Shortcuts || {};YAHOO.Shortcuts.hasSensitiveText = false;YAHOO.Shortcuts.sensitivityType = [];YAHOO.Shortcuts.doUlt = false;YAHOO.Shortcuts.location = "us";YAHOO.Shortcuts.document_id = 0;YAHOO.Shortcuts.document_type = "";YAHOO.Shortcuts.document_title = "AHBA Trainers";YAHOO.Shortcuts.document_publish_date = "";YAHOO.Shortcuts.document_author = "[email protected]";YAHOO.Shortcuts.document_url = "";YAHOO.Shortcuts.document_tags = "";YAHOO.Shortcuts.document_language = "english";YAHOO.Shortcuts.annotationSet = {"lw_1236965879_0": {"text": "Cooperative","extended": 0,"startchar": 203,"endchar": 213,"start": 204,"end": 214,"extendedFrom": "","predictedCategory": "","predictionProbability": "0","weight": 0.218706,"relScore": 2.08025,"type": ["shortcuts:/us/tag/other/wiki"],"category": ["WIKI"],"wikiId": "Cooperative","relatedWikiIds": [],"relatedEntities": [],"showOnClick": [],"context": "Colorado.\u00c2\u00a0 I am a member of the Northern Colorado Herding Cooperative, located in Wellington, CO.\u00c2\u00a0 The main instructor is Val Manning","metaData": {"visible": "true"} },"lw_1236965879_1": {"text": "http://www.bvkc.org","extended": 0,"startchar": 418,"endchar": 436,"start": 421,"end": 439,"extendedFrom": "","predictedCategory": "","predictionProbability": "0","weight": 1,"relScore": 0,"type": ["shortcuts:/us/instance/identifier/hyperlink/http"],"category": ["IDENTIFIER"],"wikiId": "","relatedWikiIds": [],"relatedEntities": [],"showOnClick": [],"context": "she should be able to help you out.\u00c2\u00a0 Check out http://www.bvkc.org and click on Herding to find out more information.\u00c2\u00a0 Megan","metaData": {"linkHref": "http://www.bvkc.org","linkProtocol": "http","linkRel": "nofollow","linkTarget": "_blank","visible": "true"} },"lw_1236965879_2": {"text": "http://bordercollies.omegan.org","extended": 0,"startchar": 619,"endchar": 649,"start": 623,"end": 653,"extendedFrom": "","predictedCategory": "","predictionProbability": "0","weight": 1,"relScore": 0,"type": ["shortcuts:/us/instance/identifier/hyperlink/http"],"category": ["IDENTIFIER"],"wikiId": "","relatedWikiIds": [],"relatedEntities": [],"showOnClick": [],"context": "to find out more information.\u00c2\u00a0 Megan Donovan Omegan Border Collies http://bordercollies.omegan.org","metaData": {"linkHref": "http://bordercollies.omegan.org","linkProtocol": "http","linkRel": "nofollow","linkTarget": "_blank","visible": "true"} }};YAHOO.Shortcuts.headerID = "45c207e77a1e21202fc0155560c9299e";I received a message from one of my puppy buyers that is on the AHBA list, that you were looking for a trainer in Northern Colorado. I am a member of the Northern Colorado Herding Cooperative, located in Wellington, CO. The main instructor is Val Manning, a GSD breeder and trainer, so she should be able to help you out. Check out http://www.bvkc.org and click on Herding to find out more information. 

Megan 

Ohhhh, BTW, I wouldn't play up the schutzhund background. Even amongst GSD people they don't understand that the drives are the same whether its stock or the man. They think Sch and they think stock killer. Jeff, there is an aussie trainers [the DeKeiffers] in Elizabeth, CO. Did you train with them? Carol Lucero is in Lupton, CO. She's a neat lady and you can learn alot from her. She has judged for us several times.


Terrasita


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Thanks so much. Val Manning of the Northern Colorado Herding Cooperative is expecting me, and was very gracious in her invitation. I meet the group Sunday and start training Wednesdays. I've been going nutso having no training lately, so I'm very thrilled. Thanks for the advice too, usually I'm more interested in picking brains than telling my views, so I'll probably be fine.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I see my cut and paste while I was rushing to the airport didn't turn out so well. I didn't even notice that they were the same facility. I like the AHBA program best overall so thought I would ask on that list. Will be looking forward to reading your perspective on herding and how Nickie does. Uhhhhhh, I don't know if anyone has told you yet but herding is highly ADDICTIVE.

Terrasita


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I see my cut and paste while I was rushing to the airport didn't turn out so well. I didn't even notice that they were the same facility. I like the AHBA program best overall so thought I would ask on that list. Will be looking forward to reading your perspective on herding and how Nickie does. Uhhhhhh, I don't know if anyone has told you yet but herding is highly ADDICTIVE.
> 
> Terrasita


No $#!+ :lol: :lol:


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Nickie did a super job today. We even won 2nd in a fun competition pot. Anyway, the instructor believed her to be very talented, and worthy of continuing this pursuit. As an all-breed club, the group attitude was refreshing and helpful to the novice.

My wife called me this morning to tell me of a SAR home that was interested in Nickie, and I must say, she was a little surprised that I was getting involved in herding. Guess I just never thought of doing it before, but I'm always eager to learn anything useful that keeps me & my dogs busy.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Excellent!


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I know someone that did train down in Elizabeth somewhere, but I was north, not south of Denver. :razz: :razz:


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Hi Daryl:

Glad to hear you and Nickie had such a great time. 

Terrasita


----------



## Mike Di Rago (Jan 9, 2009)

Daryl,
Just out of curiosity, from what you have seen so far and in regards to GSD's. Do you think ''working line'' GSD's would still be able to do herding or do you think the herding has been bred out of these lines?
By the way hats off to you for trying this, I think it is a good idea to branch out.
Mike


----------



## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

not to answer for Daryl, but IMO, a WL GSD would be FAR, FAR more likely to do the work for 2 reasons 1) their drive hasn't been bred out of them and 2) being anatomically more sound than a SL, they can physically DO the work w/o breaking down.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Mike Di Rago said:


> Daryl,
> Just out of curiosity, from what you have seen so far and in regards to GSD's. Do you think ''working line'' GSD's would still be able to do herding or do you think the herding has been bred out of these lines?
> By the way hats off to you for trying this, I think it is a good idea to branch out.
> Mike


 
Mike,
Terrasita tested most of our club dogs and most all showed some promise. Some were standouts!
The instincts are still there in a good working dog.


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Given my limited experience in herding, I believe it would be a bit unfair to answer that question with any credible insight. It's what this breed was made for, and somewhat in comparison, I would believe that strong "instincts" for herding would be harder to remove from the breed, than strong "nerves" would be to retain within the breed.

I believe that some dogs will be more ideal than others, to coincide with the handler's personal understanding of the dog, and the training approach employed. Variable methods of training are unknown to me, but I have every confidence to rely on the lessons I'm presently being taught.

I would however, believe it _more difficult _to train a dog for herding, that has a prior obedience foundation for some other particular working venue. This is why I believe Nickie will make this a clean experience for me, as I personally learn the skills involved for myself, with no previous training conflicts on her part.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Daryl, I'm starting with a 5 yr old Sch III, CDX GSD. His obedience has only helped in his understanding of what we want in the sheep pen.
Although Thunder was trained with no compulsion there is a lot of compulsion in a lot of herding. Herding is just another venue I'm choosing to work with motivational only training.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Uhhhhh, not to destroy any previous conceived notions, but one shouldn't generalize between working and show when it comes to finding herding talent. I have trained two GSD bitches from American/Canadian show lines and they were both AWESOME. Not ALL dogs out of these lines are incorrect. Asta and Teva were both CORRECT and that great structure stood them in good stead out in the pasture. When you see a GSD covering a 100+ head of sheep out in the open, you appreciate good structure. When you have 750 lbs of angry beef coming at you or the evil ram, you appreciate sound nerves and a dog that will put in on the line to keep you safe. Teva and Asta were more than tested in this regard and always came out on top. In my search for a puppy, one of the reasons I liked what I saw in some DDR/Czech dogs was the good structure they have maintained. There is bad on both sides of the coin when it comes to finding a good dog. The key is selection and knowing what to look for. If I set stock for a trial, I might be using that dog 8-10 hours as I bring the sheep in out of the pasture, sort them and rotate them throughout the day for the trial runs. Its been in the rain, snow, 15 degrees vs. 95 degrees. You need a dog of sound mind and sound body for stock work. There are some show breeders who really do know what good temperament and what good structure is. They're not all breeding overangulated mental flakes. With everyone playing to the extreme both working and show, we are in danger of loosing what the breed is supposed to be about.


Obedience doesn't really hurt a dog in herding. The problems come in when people use obedience at the wrong time which interferes with the dog learning to control livestock. You will also make the dog think that you don't want him to use his instinct. So you have to be really careful. I actually think schutzhund is good cross training because you are in the dog's head while he is in drive instead of really just always shutting it down which happens a lot in herding. My current young dog had a year of just marker trained obedience and some Balabanov type tug work because I wanted to be in the dog's head when he is in drive and have a dog that sees me as a source of his drive instead of trying to take his drive away. He's my guinea pig for how I want to train a herding dog. So, stay tuned... Meanwhile, Mr. Thunder brings a LOT to the table and and I'm really looking forward to seeing him develop. His prior work and relationship with Bob makes him really manageable. Of course I do love disproving stereotypes. I can't wait to show the herding world that Schutzhund isn't synonomous with "wolf" out for a livestock kill' which is also what they saw of my gutsy showline bitches in their youth.

Terrasita


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

:-o But! But! Those sheep look just like big mobile juste sleeves to a Schutzhund trained dog. :grin: :wink:


----------



## Mike Di Rago (Jan 9, 2009)

All this brings out a question to me. Many people mention that the present GSD was bred to be a herder.
I was always (and still am) under the impression that the GSD was intended to be a ''police-military'' dog but that von Stephanitz chose the herding dogs of his day as the breeding stock to use as foundation because the abilities shown were close to what he was looking for.
What are your views on this? I don't want to hijack this thread, but I thought this would be interresting.
Mike


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I'm not thoroughly knowlegeable of gsd history, but my understanding was, that he _only later decided _that his breed could be applied toward military and police pursuits, and pushed for it's acceptance in those venues, but that herding was its original purpose.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

*Von Stephanitz, page 377*: "The genuine and noblest vocation for the shepherd-dog is, no doubt, tending flocks and above all, as his name says, tending sheep." "The shepherd-dog is a working dog and only as such can he remain a shepherd-dog, for that reason we value him, and for that reason we love him." "When he cannot be employed in his proper vocaiton with the flocks, then he must be given other duties which lie within his scope by means of his development."

*Von Stephanitz, page 428-430: "*This brings us back to the dog once more. I have already said more thn once that his real work is with sheep; hw works however, with all kinds of livestock, and is perfectly able to adopt himself to any other kind of work. Dogs that are particularly sharp are used for pig-tending, because the country pig when out at pasture is an awkward customer who does not possess the patience of the sheep. A sow or a boar can deal hard blows and even draw blood, and an old boar will sometimes turn on the swineherd and strangers. In such cases, the dog must come to the rescue and bark the villain into a stae of sweet reasonableness. With swine, the grip should be on the hams; in South Germany, however, the grip on the ear is allowed but the sensitive tail should bever be gripped. In all other respecs the work of the swine dog is identical, whether on the road or on the pasture with the herds, with that of the shepherd dog. With the improvement of extensive pasturage, the shepherd-dog is being used more and more. Dairymen or cow keepers know well the value of a bold dog to help both when driving the cattle out to pasture and bringing them in for milking and quite a few have been saved at the last moment by their dogs from a bull turned savage. Very small dogs are sometimes used with the larger cattle, especially in the Harz mountains. Here, it is never a question of sive with the dog but of courage and cleverness, for the dog is supposed to grip one hand's breadth above the hind fetlocks, and must then immediately jump to one side, or throw himself down, if he does not wish to get a very hard kick on the head, which in many cases lay him out for the good and all. Any other grip is forbidden, and on no account must he go for the belloy or the udder, but when attacking cattle he must always bark. Occasionally one also sees shepherd-dogs with horses grazing in the fields--our dogs are very fond and reliable in guarding carriage horses are never very far fromthem--and in the East they are also used for tending large flocks of geese. The dog for such work must be carefully selected, for a goose is very short-tempered and has a very good idea of how to use its beak, but it cannot stand being nipped. In former times when the geese waddled in large flocks from Posen to Berlin and the various other markets, shepherd-dogs trotted along with them to drive them. But it was not necessary, however to harden their pads with liquid pitch before the march started as had to be done with their charges.

All working shepherd-dogs that do not find work with cattle or with flocks, and those that show themselves unsuitable for such work, always find another sphere of employment , generally as watch dogs on the farm.

From here Von Stephaniztz continues with describing the other occupations the shepherd-dog can be employed in if he can't find work with livestock.

Terrasita


----------



## Mike Di Rago (Jan 9, 2009)

Thank you Terrasita for clearing that up. I was under the impression that the original goal was police-military. Probably due to Stephanitz's background.
After reading your post I noticed from other sources that it took another 9-10 years to bring out the police-military option.
Mike


----------



## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

Daryl, the pup (9 months) I have now looked a lot like your girl at that age...beautiful pigment. Now, at 9 months, she is just as beautiful. I will do a formal intro soon--I will try to include her younger pics too. 

I always enjoy seeing your pics. Thanks for posting.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

The original German herding test (HGH) also had a protection phase in it. This protection phase has been dropped not to far in the past. 
going back in your dog's pedigree you'll se many dogs with the HGH title. 
The SV (head GSD organization out of Germany) states that a dog can qualify for breeding eligability (Koreklass sp?) if it has the HGH title. and the BH, AD, and protection titles are then not necessary. 
An HGH titled dog is very much respected in the GSD world.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Mike, 

I believe that it was about 1901 based on reports regarding the Belgium shepherd dog that the SV began planting the seed regarding the military/police dog.

Page 442-443: If, so far, I have spoken in general terms of the Police dog, I wish now to emphasize that it was the shepherd dog who inaugurated the Police dog Movement, and that it is he who is the moving spirit in it today. Shepherd-dogs (shepherd spitzes) were the watch-dogs of olden times, the tracking dogs of Sophocles were, no doubt, shepherd-dogs, the Hovawarte again were shepherd-dogs, and the dogs of Mynsinger with which one "could track out the thief and the knave" were also shepherd-dogs. Our shepherd-dog is a born Police dog, for when he is with the flocks and the herds he is also a "policeman". He maintains Law and Order, looks after the safety of his charges, punishes teh delinquents, and turns back the trespassers. His development in the past from the dog of the Bronze Age to Hovawart, sheep and cattle dog, fostered and strengthened just those very characteristics and inclinations which would make him the Police dog per excellence; i.e. joy in work, devotion to duty, loyalty for his master, misrust and sharpness against strangers and unusual things, docility and obedience, teachableness and quickness to understand, and, in addition, immunity to weather, uncommonly acute senses, with gifts for retrieving and seeking, which are supported by his special gait--zig-zagging to and fro--by which method he leaves nothing unnoticed and unsought whereever he may be. From such natural talents, to which must be added precociousness, physical and mental, anything can be developed. For what is education but, first and foremost, the recognition and the development of the innate qualities of the person to be educated? For as with horses, with men and with children, so it is with the education of the dog. He who knows how to educate the qualities of his pupil is the master of his profession.

Its interesting that the first German military dogs actually came from England [airedale terriers and scotch collies]. World War I really became the impetus for utilizing dogs for the miltary and the SV campaigned heavilty for them to use GSDs. Incidentally, in talking about military work , von Stephanitz did not consider GSD as having the proper build for carting/draft work. Other breeds were more suitable physically. However, he rather see the dog so engaged even thought it was a occupation beneath the shepherd dog, but better than him being a kennel dog which he considered the cause of the breed degenerating. Very early on there was major lobbying for the GSD to be used as ambulance dogs. Later the ambulance dogs were trained as the first guide dogs. There is a lot of discussing of the tracking/searching/detection dog and the single purpose dog in this regard. The training chapter looks more like training for the ringsport or KNPV dog than Sch. 

Terrasita


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I have a _very embarassing _statement to make. In my years of breeding, I've not had an unplanned litter or accidental breeding before.

As my recent luck would have it, Nickie got ino the same kennel as my Tiekerhook male, and despite inexperience on both their parts, in what could have been no more than 3 or 4 minutes, they were locked in a tie.

If she turns out pregnant, I know there's a series of incremental shots I can give her that would cause her to absorb, with some degree of risk to her. I don't condone breeding females before age two, but wondering the liklihood that she (at 1 yr. old) took anyway?

She was on her 6th/7th day of bleeding, and he tested at 100% motility rating at the repro specialists a couple months ago, with not one single dead or defunct sperm to be found among 1 billion sperm count filling 8 vials.

I haven't consulted my vet yet, she takes weekends off. I kind of assume that early in the week is probably too late to progesterone test her, to see where she may have been in her cycle.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Daryl:

The going feeling on those shots is that its too dangerous for the girlie dogs and they aren't worth the risk of infertility or worse. A lot of vets won't even do them due to the high risk. I don't know, dogs seem to know what they are doing so my guess is that she is dead on. Rather than the progesterone test I would do a smear to see how cornified she is. Have you done these? There are sites on the web that do a great job to show you how to read the slides. I started doing my own years ago with a not to fancy microscope. I got the methylene blue from the science center and the slides and such from a teacher's supply store. I wouldn't risk the shots.

Terrasita


----------



## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

don't feel too bad daryl. my sister (breeds/trains working labs) had one of her bitches bred to a neighbor's muttly GSD/Collie-ish dog while the bitch was out with sister's husband. who "forgot" to tell her that said bitch was MIA for 1/2 hr....

needless to say, i think it may've been a good thing that DH was in Afghanistan when the dirty deed was discovered....at least you have 2 great blooklines tho not ideal timing....


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

No, I've not done smears before, but I'm always interested to learn something new. I'll look into it. I had a dream last night there were somewhere around 11 little puppies running around.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

The only dog I know of that had those shots wound up with piometria. sp?


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

_"Administration of exogenous estrogens to prevent pregnancy (ie, “mismate shots”) during diestrus greatly increases the risk of developing pyometra and should be discouraged."_
http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/112009.htm


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

you got pups on the way fo sho. You can just get one to Sandro, and he will get it to me. : )


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Yeah, as sure as anything, had he been trying and spent tons of money on stud fees, progesterone testing and such, he'd get nada. Now, all you can pray for is that these two were clueless or not too many. Here's a good site for future reference: http://www.vetmed.lsu.edu/eiltslotus/theriogenology-5361/k-9__vaginal_cytology.htm


Terrasita


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Yeah, I'm hoping not too many, or poor timing. I've been known to dump thousands into futile attempts a time or two. Thanks for the link also. Sandro's number's in my phone, I'll be sure to call. Maybe you can talk him into borrowing my problem boy for a while ;-)?


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Give him a call, can't hurt to ask. Better stop off at Ray Allen and get one of those super crate though. : )

If worse comes to worse, put him in the super crate and send him down. I have some things he could do.


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

She's put on quite a bit of weight the last couple weeks, and shedding a lot the last month or so. I'll be getting her xrayed Wed to count skulls. Probably due around the 22nd. She's picked up a couple of her mother's quirky habits the last month or two, like growling possession over toys or trying to mount the boys.


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Any day now, expecting six. Please be all boys!


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

We thought there were 6 pups judging from the xrays, but appearantly were only five, born 5-24-09. Two died before exiting the birth canal, a black male and black female. Survivors were a sable male, sable female, and black female.


----------



## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

Congrats! - well, at least one male in there and they look like good-sized pups. Mum looks pretty relaxed. I hope you'll post some more pics of these guys as they grow.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Wonder how one of those girls would go with some french lines.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Well, I'm into the chicks myself. If ya gotta have an oops, couldn't be any better than this. Keep the pics coming and can't wait for the 3 weeks assessment.

Terrasita


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

If I had five males, I'd have seven pups sold already. I didn't think there'd be so much interest, and never actually advertised per se.

As it is, one decided to switch to a female, and the last female I've designated for "working-only" unless otherwise determined later, with a pet home in waiting. I was kind of hoping for one or two pups for myself. Jeff, I'd figured reached his quota, so I wasn't counting. You really want to tackle training three at a time?

I was pleasantly surprised with the solid black results. I thought it more likely that Hutch was homozygous for sable, being significantly lighter than the sables I'm accustomed to having.



















Incidently supports the stance I've claimed (to a particular "color expert") that well defined arm bars and black toe penciling are not a necessary phenotype of recessive black carriers. Just as, there are some very dark sables that cannot throw black at all.

The black female was the first out (and therefore the first to the milk), but she's more slender than the others. The sable female is the lighter shade of the two, but still darker than Hutch, and the male has very little light color at all, a rather dark even-all-around chocolate.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Daryl, I am getting two GSD pups from Sarco this summer, so you are right, no room at the inn. LOL

I hope they turn out real well.


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I've finally got decent connection speed once again, after being slower than dialup for the last four weeks. I can upload pictures and video without connection failures.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcqN6DgniJM


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Some of the pics I took this weekend. 3 weeks old now, and moving around pretty well, showing some personality and wrestling skills.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Wow, a green Colorado. LOL I was wondering if Colorado would ever get some normal weather. Pups are really cute.


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Alot of recent tornado alerts. I thought I was going to lose my windshield for sure a few days back, when cherry sized hail was hitting hard on the way home, too difficult to see the road. Last years tornado originated about a mile from me and missed me by a quarter mile, many homes and barns destroyed.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Colorado weather is a mean thing isn't it ??


----------



## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

Those three are definitely getting enough to eat - real big chubbers! 
Very nice puppies.


----------



## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

What a nice litter. That light sable pup sure knows how to make funny faces - too cute! If you get tired of playing with her, just pack her in a box and send it here, I won't mind... LOL


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

That one always looks evil-mad-tough from the way the sable accents her expression. I took soooo many pics, but at the risk of being too redundant only processed a few more to share.


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Thanks - I enjoyed them.


----------



## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Thanks for the extra pics, she is precious. She looks intelligent and ready to say something in every pic, although she does that tough/evil look. LOVE her face and the black mohawk down the back.


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

25 days old now, all showing good drive, explorative behavior, human attraction, and awareness of their surroundings. The sable female clearly displays her dominance, as most of this video portrays. The black female displays the least interest in the others, but the most exploratory behavior and human attraction. The male "4X escape artist" is a nice balance between the two.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pac46jRx9Mk

Usually they're a lot more vocal when rough housing, not this time I guess.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Nice. It is fun watching pups bobble around like that.


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

This one at 26 days, is what I meant by more "vocal"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cr5dP7Cj-RI

BTW, the sable female just became available again, buyer's change of plans. I might have to figure out how to post an ad here, after all.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

MORE!!!! God I could watch these all day. I'm kinda intrigued with the solid black one in terms of the difference in how she interacts with the male and the other female. As for the sables---need collars. I thought I had them straight in the first video and then they looked like cookie cutters in the second. So this is kinda like 3 1/2 weeks. Can't wait to see week 5.

Terrasita


----------



## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Sable girl is still shaking everyone by the neck I see  

At least the brother gives as good as he gets, the black sister just stays out of the way. Though I though she was pretty smart, coming over to bite the brother when he was busy chewing on his sable sister.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

That's what's interesting about them. The black female basically says to the more dominant one I'm not going to react to you. She generally won't engage her. However, she will engage the male and he seems to interact with her differently than the more dominant female. I've seen this same dichotomy and ultimately it came down to what they cared about. This is the great TV part about raising puppies and really brings to mind a comment on the board and throughout some of the anit-Milan stuff being generated that there is no dominance hierachy in a litter of puppies. 


Terrasita


----------



## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

I think the girl/boy interaction is a lot different than same sex, they let eachother get away with more stuff, and forgive easier... Sometimes the one doing all the snarling and shoving isn't the one most dominant though, just with more drive and more reactive (insecure?) that she has to beat up on everyone else to keep her place.

But generally the ones I see as naturally dominant, do get that kind of avoidance from the other dogs - they can calmly carry a toy in their mouth among the rest of the dogs and even after they put it down nobody will touch what's theirs.

I like that the boy isn't shy to go back and chew on the sable girl. He's no pushover for sure 

Puppies are so damn cute, who needs TV??


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

_"brings to mind a comment on the board and throughout some of the anit-Milan stuff being generated that there is no dominance hierachy in a litter of puppies."_

Yeah, I'm not seeing any hierarchy among them at all really, and none of the three is proving to be a pushover in the least bit.

The black female has outgrown the others in size now, the two sables have a strong tendency to look me in the eye, very watchful. I'll try to get some more vids and pics together this weekend. Here's a couple new ones, sire and son, and the female running.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I am not sure that there isn't some sort of heirarchy, but the dang thing can and will shift. I think it is heirarchy 099. Doesn't count for graduation.


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

OK, I put together the snippets from a couple days back. Not much, but running around and playing. Near the end the black pup gets bowled over by "dad" for her little stick.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZA_KZnzwhM


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Nickie has been back at training for the last few weeks, and doing wonderfully well. She picked up easily from where we had left off, and improved at the same time. While I was out of state for a week, she also was able to do some boundary tending, and worked very well on her own, without needing even to move, a turn of her head and a look was all that was necessary to keep the sheep grouped and from straying. Last night, we had our monthly "fun day" event, and competed in teams with two dogs and two handlers, one novice and one trial experienced. She again did an amazing job, and made me very proud.


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

We're having an all day two day clinic this weekend, specifically on the C course. Nickie did an absolutely fantastic job today, a real natural. The guest instructor commented that if we were giving out trophies today, she would definitely get the grand prize.

Hutch on the other hand, should have been left at home. With Sasha (Nickie's mother) going through her heat cycle, the last couple weeks have put him out of sorts. I'll probably bring a replacement for him tomorrow.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Fantastic!
The C course is where it's at for the GSD but it's so dern hard to find anyone to do it.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Daryl,

Who did your C Course?


Terrasita


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I think her name's Dianne Wright, from Michigan. She said there's not a lot of places doing it, mostly in New England, Texas, California, and Washington I think.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I think there is a Schutzhund/herding club in the NW (Washington).
Yep! East coast and West Coast is all I've ever herd about.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

You're in good hands. Her first GSD Chelsea was beautiful to watch work.

Terrasita


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Daryl - great news.

Took me a long time to work out what a "C Clinic Course" was but I finally got it.

I know you understand German, we still call them Schutzdienst Workshops or Schutzdients courses here (under Schutzhündler of course)


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> You're in good hands. Her first GSD Chelsea was beautiful to watch work.
> 
> Terrasita


She brought "Jack" and "Cash" with her. Cash was the most memorable to me, not bad looking, and very on his game.

We're hoping to have a C course trial by April of next hear, if not then, October 2010. I'll definitely participate locally, since traveling is rarely an option with my job, and the fact that I'm single with several dogs to care for.

I almost find it discraceful that german breeding has put herding on the wayside, in favor of schutzhund. I think I've found a nice "niche" to settle into for a while. Who knows, maybe it'll grow on me more.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Daryl said
"I almost find it discraceful that german breeding has put herding on the wayside, in favor of schutzhund.


The HGH is the SV herding title and it originally had a protection phase to it. I'm guessing it was dropped because to many SV type (show dogs) couldn't cut it. 
Gust a guess though. 
You'll see the HGH title in a number of the old dog's lines. It was as valuable as the Sch titles and still can substitute for a working title at the SV shows.


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I knew all that, but my point is (and I don't know actual numbers) I'm guessing there's fifty SchH titles awarded for every HGH. And steadily declining. Fewer SV officials seem to know or understand herding, all their experience lying in schutzhund. There seems to be very few breeders that are actively breeding for herding stock, and I can easily see where over-emphasis on schutzhund has caused some difficulty for availability of clearly talented candidates for herding.

There's no reason to ditch the protection part either, that I can tell. To change the criteria to "fit the dogs that are participating".... rather than "participating with dogs that fit the criteria".... seems counterproductive to the breed. The fact that germans allow this to occur (not just us damn americans) makes it more deplorable.

"Utility", right? Pockets of occasional overselection is perhaps prudent in various situations, but not when it's in the majority.

For example, Hutch might be a great dog eventually on the "A" course, and maybe I could pull of a "C" course title as well. But you could find a more appropriate dog to fit the job pretty easily. He wouldn't be my first or second choice to participate, and expect to do clearly well. He's wired very differently, too quick and responsive, emits too much energy to the livestock. Not of "sanguine temperament", for sure, and a good example of overselection to extremes.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Whhhooooaaaaa. Don't rule that Hutch boy out yet. Put him on 50-100 head. Remember all that drive and presence WORKED on 200-600 head of sheep that were't reactive to the dog. We just had Thunder in with the lamb flock today. They haven't been TAUGHT that they should run and overact to a dog's pressure. He's also YOUNG. Nothing can be more prey and reactivity than that bouv bitch of mine, especially when she's had enough pressure cook training. As much as I hate cows, I might have to go to those with Khira. From your earlier posts on Hutch, I didn't figure him for the prey for the sake of prey monster. However, at a year and a half, Khira's prey drive kicked it up a notch.

If folks truly understood prey and defense drives and all that Volhard stuff, they would see how one can predict the dog's stock work from his bite work and vice versa. Nervy on the sleeve will be nervy on the stock pressure. 

Do lots of walking around and amongst sheep to calm him. Sit in a pen with sheep and put him on a down while you read a book. As you move up the ladder training for advanced work, you will appreaciate the dogs with gusto. You can always tone it down. Building it or trying to sucks.

You are so right. Ulf Kinzel says we have sport and prey for the sake of prey on the one side and foo foo on the other and the herders will have to save the breed. I am deeply concerned over all the talk of how the GSD needs to be more like the mal for sake of just pure sport work. 


You obedience/sport minded folks [wonder who else] want perfection so soon and are too in love with compliance for the BEGINNING herding dog. They have to learn to feel their stock and what amount of pressure works and what keeps them safe. YOu have to think in terms of educating the m through situations and jobs instead of just rote training. Some days are just ugly. I worked the bouv today and should have put her up before going into a large field w/ light sheep. She cooked from the outset and insisted on stampeding sheep over the top of me and could've cared less about my promises of bodily harm. Then the little corgi bitch of mine was a complete disobedient airhead. Needless to say I new it was subject to be ugly with her. She hadn't worked all week and I changed areas and game plans. 

I worked poor Thunder to death today. When having a bad day, work the GSD---even if its vicarious, it still feels great. He and Bob will sleep for three days. They did their first A course work today with the ducks. Thunder drove the ducks through the obstacles really nice and is starting to develop a nice lift. As usual he made his 2 leaps forward in training. Bob had TONS to think about today--50 different things going on at once and still not to his view of perfection. 

Terrasita


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

No, I'm not ruling him out at all, but feel we need to do some different work before continuing with the tending. Hutch IS a prey monster, just fortunately one with an "off switch". I have been working on capping that drive, and teaching him to "walk" rather than rush. But it's frustrating for him, and there's no immediate reward or anyway to release that energy, which makes him all the more frustrated.

I'd love to put him on a couple hundred sheep, but I'm not travelling to germany for that, and we just don't have those numbers hanging around locally. He's coming around nicely in A course work and other excercises, can run nice tight circles around the sheep without causing them to scatter. But "working" means _doing something_ to him, being active and very prompt.


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

> _"brings to mind a comment on the board and throughout some of the anit-Milan stuff being generated that there is no dominance hierachy in a litter of puppies."
> 
> _Yeah, I'm not seeing any hierarchy among them at all really, and none of the three is proving to be a pushover in the least bit.


Pack order in a litter is completely fluid until about 6 weeks. One of my reasons for taking a pup at 6 weeks rather than at 8.


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Not saying you couldn't be right, when generally speaking, but it's just not applying here. At 9 weeks now, all three think they're the sh!+. They're smaller in number, but very intense, no one gives easily. They each get their "wins".


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

T said
"I worked poor Thunder to death today. When having a bad day, work the GSD---even if its vicarious, it still feels great. He and Bob will sleep for three days. They did their first A course work today with the ducks. Thunder drove the ducks through the obstacles really nice and is starting to develop a nice lift. As usual he made his 2 leaps forward in training. Bob had TONS to think about today--50 different things going on at once and still not to his view of perfection." 

Hell, I slept real late Monday morning. Sunday night has a gazillion sheep in my thoughts but not a damn one of them helped put me to sleep.:lol: 
I'm seeing how simple, yet so hard that herding is.If the dog has it, "let the dog work". I'm still a bit to much of a control freak but I'm loving every min of it. 
I really got a kick out of the field of lambs. So sensative to the dog yet no panic like you sometimes see in a flock of sheep that have been worked by to many different dogs.
Daryl, the AKC C course usually involves 20 or so sheep. That's still a tiny group to really see what the GSD is all about. I'd love to see a 200 plus herd with Thunder. I think it would settle him down once he realizes he can't move everything so fast. 
BTW, T's bouv bitch, Khira, was smoothe as glass going through the A course with the ducks. Gentle as a lamb. As T said, I'm also thinking that Khria would benifit from working the cattle. 
Got yer running shoes on T? :lol:


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I didn't realize until Monday how wore out the weekend made me. Got quite a bit of sun, too.

I remember seeing a job posting about a week ago, for a research geneticist involved in the "US Sheep Experiment" station in Dubois, Idaho. They currently have about 3,000 mature sheep. Below is a couple pics of a large herd feeding by a mountain lakeside in southwest Montana. I think those are great pyranese (sp?) or two in the background. The sheep will feed on larkspur, that range cattle can't digest safely, clearing the area prior to their moving in to graze.


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Sasha (Nickie's mother) was introduced 1st time in tending practice today, and did fabulously well, as if she had the several months practice her daughter Nickie has. It's clear where Nickie gets her most of her natural talent. I hope to have them both well titled within a years time from now. She respected the borders, worked all four sides of the grazing area, watched the sheep. Not a bad job at all!


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Daryl:

The young DDR male that I've referred to is also linebred on Alf v. Kornersee.
Very interesting. Looking forward to hearing more about the mother/daughter duo.

Terrasita


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

While Nickie herself has no linebreeding, she's roughly 75+% DDR lineage. My instructor gave the two a nice review on the Herding & Tending list today...



> Later this morning we had the amazing young GSD Nicky and her equally amazing mother Sasha out to work the smaller graze in my secret garden area. This past weekend Doug mowed a border along the fences and now there is a 4 sided practice graze within a few steps of the backdoor. While the sheep weren't thrilled about working on the knapweed, they did munch on some grass while Nicky and Sasha worked on the four sided graze. Where the white faced woolies were somewhat snooty to immature Nicky - Sasha didn't have any trouble pushing them into the graze. This was her first time around the sheep and owner Daryl was thrilled at how she took right to the border and trotted around without challenging the boundary, but held the sheep. Where neither girl has the intensity he is used to seeing on the schutzhund field - both are natural tenders.
> 
> ~Val Manning
> 08-05-09


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

We had another tending clinic this weekend, and the girls did fabulous. I think Nickie's ready to trial in C course already, and Sasha's not very far behind.

As usual I couldn't really get pics while handling either dog, but I did manage to snap a few of Sasha during a warm up excercise.


----------



## Annika Friberg (Mar 27, 2009)

Nice pictures! Is this in the northern foothills - north of Ft. Collins - then?


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

She does look like she's having a great time and I agree--gorgeous photographs.

Terrasita


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Yeah, north of Ft. Collins and Wellington, on Buckeye Rd. I like it up there, fewer people and less of the crowded feel.


----------



## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

is it just me, or the photos, but is she working the sheep hard? ie, running them more than required? 

as a compete newbie, if it's just the photos, no prob. and just so everyone knows, i do love the ddr-bred dogs, i think they can be the BOMB.

reason i ask is, i have a picture in my mind of a GSD working off the livestock, moving them calmly, which is why i ask about the particular pics with the understanding that when working stock it's not all sweet and pastoral. and also with the realization that this is a green dog.

just trying to get a picture in my mind about what to expect, def not a diss to your dog, daryl, just trying to learn.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Key words: "warm up exercise." Also, yes, a very green dog. I don't do warm up exercises but if I mark/clicker, that it is a release--i.e. behavior ends. Doggie gets a free moment and then back to business. The more experienced the dog, for the most part, they just circle the stock with my marker/release. Some will blast through them for a split but then immediately put them back together. The release tends to be the uncorking. 

Terrasita


----------



## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

i see, said the blind man......


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Sasha at this point had quite a few sessions of tending, but only one in the A course ring, so she never really got a chance to see what she could do, to get a feel for how she moves the sheep, how to affect them. Yes, she was pushing hard, but the session wasn't overly long, and she was responding nicely to my vocal tone to gradually let up when I felt it was overescalating. Since tending doesn't require a lot of movement from the sheep, except through the narrow graze, it was a beneficial experience to her, I believe. Also made her pretty happy in the work.


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Though I've never had the opportunity myself to photo Nickie while working, another co-op member took this one with her telephoto that same weekend.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Looks like very nice boundry work!


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

While training today, I realized how easy it would be to video her from the large graze. At least that way you can see how she patrols the border. I'd be standing in the middle of livestock, but doesn't require much attention from me while she does her thing. I'm going for group training on Sunday, so I'll give it a shot then.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Daryl:

The started C Course run begins with the exit from the free standing pen, then the flock proceed along the narrow road to the bridge. After the bridge, there is the traffic road with the pause and the parked vehicle. The final element before the repen is the 5-10 minute wide graze.

Have you done any work with Nickie and Sascha regarding the pen exit, movement along the narrow road and the bridge and traffic road. I'm curious how they approach training for the narrow road flock movement.

Terrasita


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Not sure what I could describe that would be different. The traffic is a lawnmower-tractor with a trailer.


----------



## John Zhang (Jul 22, 2009)

Jamielee Nelson said:


> Now that is an amazing looking pup! I only hope my new puppy is 1/2 that purdy in coloring ( not to mention working ability)


Very nice


----------



## John Zhang (Jul 22, 2009)

Very nice..............


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Thank you. I decided it would be a good time for a photo update, and ended up with some nice ones. I found that the trick to getting her to hold for more than an eyeblink is to exercise her for 45 min. or more. That slows her down to two eyeblinks.


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Signed up for an AHBA trial this weekend. Nickie got the first leg of her Junior Herding Dog title, and with flying colors! Finish up tomorrow, and I expect she'll do spectacularly well. And next weekend, I've entered her in an AKC trial.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Whohooooo!!! Congrats Daryl!!!!

Terrasita


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

FANTABULOUS!!!

I'm hoping for the JHD next time out! Your cruzin ahead nicely! :wink:


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Thanks. I can't say the same for Sasha, though. I would have had better results with either of the boys had I entered them. She was full of surprises today, when she proceeded to pick up all the rocks in the arena, prancing around with them. I'd take it from her and dispose of it while she'd go find another, all the while practically ignoring the goats.

Nickie finished the course in 2min.48sec.
PAUSE: good
COLLECT AND CONTROL: fair (distracted to begin)
MOVEMENT THROUGH COURSE: good
OBSTACLES: good
RELIABLE STOP: good
REPEN: good

May have been a bit lucky, but hoping for a repeat performance tomorrow.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Daryl:

Had Sasha worked goats before? Wonder if she saw them as stock? A good set of goats is hard to beat for starting a dog. I did all of Khira's initial training with A Course with goats.

Terrasita


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Has Sasha worked goats before? They have a knack for making lots of dogs have second thoughts.

Nice report on Nickie. Thunder's enthusiasm on his outrun can sometimes creat splits but he does a nice collection once he gets himself under control. 
Were working on slow and steady without correcting his power.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

40 lashes. We're working on BOB being in the right place to influence the collecting of the stock. Bob you haven't experienced good goats. Properly worked ones are a dream for starting a dog.


Terrasita


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> 40 lashes. We're working on BOB being in the right place to influence the collecting of the stock. Bob you haven't experienced good goats. Properly worked ones are a dream for starting a dog.
> 
> 
> Terrasita


:-o :lol: 
Not ment that ALL goats are like I've seen. You've explaind that to me before. That one tan one in particular will eat dogs for dinner if it has the chance. 
Kinda brings out Thunder's need to control though huh! 
To many poor/bad dogs have made those goats a bit.........testy/spooky/scatterbrained/onry...add you own here. :lol: :lol: 
How come we can't work nice compliant stock that just need to be told what direction were want them to go. I know there out there! Seen them in books and vidoes. :lol: :lol: 
No need to answer. Already have it! :grin:


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

We had been practicing for some time. Sasha's not intimidated by them, she'll put herself right in the middle of them, with all her attention on me. It's strange, because they don't seem to sense her at all when she tunes them out. She hasn't turned "on" to the goats yet, as well as the sheep, and things seem to have been getting progressively worse, rather than showing improvement.

She never played the rock-picking game, in any prior training session. A complete surprise, but easy enough to laugh about. At least I myself don't stress, and project it into my dog's behavior. I was just happy enough to get off work early and be able to arrive minutes before the trialing went underway for that category. Maybe she can miraculously get her first leg tomorrow, and complete the second next year.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I'll be rooting for you tomorrow. 
I'm gonna be working on ME, as T said. :grin:
Thunder's doing great! :lol:


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Hahaha, welcome to my world of frustration. Its why I do so much training on the ducks. They are honest to the dog. But that said, Thunder doesn't have explosive prey like Khira so I don't see it as much of a problem for him. It will put you two ahead to be able to handle the more difficlut stock. Its like the day that we worked him with sheep in an adjacent pen that were a draw. He covered that beautifully. With herding there is a lot that the handler influences regarding both the stock and the dog. Ducks make you hugely aware of this. Tomorrow we'll be working on distance, fenceline work and that initial send. We've done alot of work with him out in the open. We need to work with fenceline pick ups. The fence is making him cut in on the outrun. But notice when you did your part, he did it beautifully???? I knew from the beginning, Thunder was up to the light stock. What you weren't aware of is how the judge's positioning screws up the dog/sheep dynamics in HT and actually causes the splits. You won't have this issue in JHD. Its just you, the sheep and the dog. 

T


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

The judge in the ring definately had an influence on the sheep but Thunder did a nice job of lifting them off of her. 
When I did my part! :grin:
Yea, I know!
"GO TO YOUR SHEEP BOB"!  ](*,) :lol:


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Yep, fenceline pickups for me too, I think. That was Nickie's initial difficulty, the goats were achored to that gate, and she scooped them up, they did a quick 180 and back at the gate because she took her attention off them too soon.

Nickie had never worked so briefly before, so when she saw other dogs moving the goats from a distance after her performance, she was a bit excited about not getting her usual "fix".


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

After yesterday's beautiful T-shirt weather, I wasn't very prepared for today. The mist was very thick and wet and cold. I had either moisture or airlock in my gas tank, which made my truck unable to accelerate above 55-60mph on the way to the trial. I ended up about 8 minutes late for the handler meeting, but was graciously forgiven as I was able to phone my status in beforehand.

Luckily, before the weather turned worse today, the Junior Herding was the first event, and both my dog's work complete by 10am. There was a different judge than yesterday (makes perfect sense). I assumed it would be the same judge. Heck, I didn't even know until yesterday that I'd have to perform the course twice (1st and 2nd "legs") to achieve any title. 

Sasha was my first entry, and I was wished "good luck" by everyone that saw yesterday's comedy with the rocks. I mentioned that I was hoping to get there early, so I could clear the arena of all the big rocks laying about. Well, be darned if she didn't start with the same darn repeat of yesterday's fiasco.

Sooo...... I proceeded to ignore the fact this time that she had a big rock in her mouth, and just started doing the course with her, as if nothing was abnormal. And we completed it!!

Her scores were nothing special....
TIME: 4min.15sec.
PAUSE: fair
COLLECT AND CONTROL: fair
MOVEMENT THROUGH COURSE: fair
OBSTACLES: good
RELIABLE STOP: fair
REPEN: fair
COMMENTS: Needs the security of "the rock". Good Handling.

Nickie did really well again, and earned her title...
TIME: 2min.24sec.
PAUSE: fair
COLLECT AND CONTROL: good
MOVEMENT THROUGH COURSE: good
OBSTACLES: good
RELIABLE STOP: good
REPEN: good
COMMENTS: Once you got going, it was extremely smooth!

I called to begin and took Nickies lead off, while noticing in my peripheral vision the judge was looking away. So, perhaps that's why I got the "fair" in the PAUSE. I don't really know. We had the same trouble getting started, but not as bad as yesterday, so I think that's why I avoided a "fair" rating this time on COLLECT AND CONTROL.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Congrats on the new title. Just hand her a rock before you enter the field and all will be well. :grin: :wink:
You'll always have a different judge the second day of a weekend trial. The dog has to qualify at two different trials, under two different judges. 
Same with AKC herding titles.
I had rain my second day also but I think it helped me. Cold and wet I just wanted to get the thing over with. That took all the worring out of it and I actually did better then the Saturday trial. Go figure!
My AHBA trials will be Nov 7-8. Did my first run through on the JHT pattern. As usual thunder did awesome while carrying me throough the course.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Well congrats on getting them both through it. Was Sascha confused about going from tending to moving livestock or the goats or were YOU really uptight and she wondered about hte imposter as the handler? If hte dog is more sensitive to the handler and the handler is more of the control the dog type, come trial day, doggie goes into avoidance rather than do anything wrong.

We worked alot with fencelines and corners today and started some of my initial boundary work with Thunder. No problem with running throught the JHD course with 8 head of sheep but I didn't think it would be. We had a really light group of sheep and Thunder is doing a great job with cover and also picking up singles nice. He had some initial problems with going around the panels which would cause a split.

T


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

It was a happy day! :smile::smile::smile::smile:


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Ahhhhh you guys don't know bad weather. We had one year where we used a roller in the duck pen to pack the snow down. We used to laugh that once the torrential down pour started, it would be time for my run. Sandra and I always make a point to work in the rain. We basically don't do ice or lightening. We used to laugh that Rory could swim in parts of the arena which he thought was fabulous. Bob already had plenty of soakings in training a few slips in the mud so he was good and ready for the rainy trial day. We laugh when we think about Sch and those perfect stadium conditions. I gotta find out when the train runs near Purina so Bob can experience that the Thunder really can't hear him and he's not blowing him off.

T


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Yes, Sasha is sensitive to me, and also prone to avoidance when I pressure her. That's a side to her I was pretty much unaware of, prior to her first formal training in herding. She's simply not accustomed to being asked much of anything. Realizing this, I decided to keep her attitude upbeat before the trial yesterday, and she took it as "playtime" when we have the most fun at home together, with sticks and balls and stuff. I probably will start letting her use a kong in training from now on.

Nickie is also handler sensitive (which I hate), but at least handles pressure very well.

I also took Nickie's daughter with me today, "Pitch". We've spent a lot more time together recently. She had never seen so many other strange dogs as today, and we have much to work on in regards to dog aggression. She didn't like the slick and quick border collies, or the massive rottweilers. She wasn't seeking safety with the handler as much as trying to break the lead and go for blood.

My corrections nearly led to handler aggression on a couple occasions, but had better results with a few alpha rolls. I don't doubt that this type of aggression has some basis in fear, but mostly just foreward hard aggression. Outside of this, believe or not, she really is a nice girl that likes people and wants to please her handler.

_"Beneath this rough, harsh surface....... is *more* rough, harsh surface."
~Sherrif of Nottingham_

There was a Poodle competing today, a bit uncommon I hear. Maybe a lot that have been instinct tested, but to the handler's awareness, she is the first to have ever attained a level 1 title on any poodle.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Border Collies can bring out the worst in a lot of dogs with that "eye" thing. Seems other dogs don't get it but sure don't like being stared at. Luckily Thunder has that GSD godlike attitude and acts as if other dogs aren't worth a second look from him.
I always thought he was pretty handler sensative.....till I introduced him to sheep. :lol: 

T, you forgot about the train next to the Schutzhund club. One of the judges even commented about it being an unfair advantage cause our dogs were used to it. I could call him off of a full run in a courage test even with the train whistle blowing.......................:-k:-k Wonder if there are any bite sleeves made out of raw wool? :-k :lol:


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

That was exactly it, I think. The few she didn't notice were the ones that ignored her.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

The eye stare is a total challenge to most dogs. The BCs just aren't bright enought to know that. :-o:-# :lol:


----------



## Ian Forbes (Oct 13, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> The eye stare is a total challenge to most dogs. The BCs just aren't bright enought to know that. :-o:-# :lol:


Nor are some of their owners! My dog loses it when BCs stand there and give her the eye. Most of their handlers do not realise what has happened, just think I have a psycho Rottweiler...](*,)


----------



## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

daryl--great job!!definitely keep us updated on your "herding journey".


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Oh, I will. To be honest, I'm not sure if I'll be herding for much longer. I put in for a job that's closer to Denver, and the herding club is about 5 miles from the northern Colorado border.

I'd say Nickie's pretty much ready for her C course trial when it's held next spring, but I may be involved in something different on a regular basis, perhaps Mondio Ring.

Of course, this is only if I get the job down there. It's all up in the air for now, I could end up in Montana instead before the year's over, who knows.


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Training today was great for both of the girls. We did a warmup in the A course ring first. I included a large rubber ball for Sasha to carry, which was fine at first, then just started to get in the way as she was too proud to just carry it about, not paying much mind to the sheep. So, I took it from her, but her attitude stayed elevated knowing I was carrying it with me. Then she'd more purposefully engage and move the sheep around the obstacles with several direction changes as directed. Great improvement, and less iffy that the trial this weekend will be a futile effort.

Whoah boy, Nickie really was a go getter when she was up, determined and skillful in ways that truly impressed me this go round! She had to take very little instruction from me at all, it was totally her show.

So later, each girl got their turn running through the course we're entering this weekend, which went relatively well for each of them. Seems like most of the commentary is about the dog that gives me the greater challenge. Not much to say when everything goes so well for the other one. Nickie is certainly a pleasure to watch work. She's a tad slow to wind down to the controlled pause, but I don't think that affects the scoring in anyway.


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Interesting read about the need for very little instruction, which reminded me of that article in another post that mentioned genetic obedience. I had forgotten about that until your post and then I was reminded of how awe struck I was when my dogues went after and treed a bear. It's something that I had read that Dogues de Bordeaux were used for at one time, but heck who sees that kind of stuff any more to even know if the ability still exists?

I couldn't describe it any other way except to say that it was pure harmony seeing the two of them work together. Like each had a job to do that they had done their entire lives. When the bear came down the tree I thought for sure that was it and my dogs were dead. My heart sank. But that's when I got to see what their intentions were. I'm guessing, that not a single person I know of with this breed has ever had the pleasure of watching that kind of work first hand. It really was something to see.

Guess, all I am saying is I can relate to your experience.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Teamwork is as important in herding as any dog sport. Maybe even more so if your truely letting the dog do a job as opposed to trying to control it. That's what Thunder and T are finally getting into my head. 
His gather is a ton more effective when I work with him instead of tellling him what to do.
Daryl, work on that controlled pause separate from the stock. 
I used Thunder's running stand from the III exercise to start with. Getting that solid without the distraction of sheep has been huge in our learning. He's much more apt to locxk up in a stand with stock if I've practiced it during the week. toss a ball (without a stay command) and give a "stand" command while he's going for it. Slow at first but getting better.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Daryl,

Are you running HS this weekend or something else. The language for the controlled pause is in the test classes and it is scored [basically, handler removes lead and dog waits for the send command]. In the trial classes, you enter the arena off lead and set the dog at the post. I'm a stickler for the dog walking with me. Some folks enter and dog moves around the arena as handler is closing gate, etc. My guys are trained to down as I open the gate, wait until I call them through and down again after I latch the gate. Then its just about heel position to the cone. After I've downed my dog, I'll generally nod to the stock handler and the'll bring out and set the sheep. What was different this last trial was they were setting the ducks when we entered the arena. Bob knows how much a trigger this is for Khira so I made the decision to keep her downed at the gate until they finished putting them in the set out basket, THEN we did our walk to the post/cone. Khira is more like your Hutch w/ the prey and anything flying can trigger her into the twilight zone. 


Terrasita


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Nicole, I totally get it. My instructor and I were discussing today, how dogs bred and selected for the sport, can easily fall short of being able to _do the actual real work._ As abundantly clear as this has proven to be the case in schutzhund, though more often at _less than_ the national level, so to does this appearantly occur in herding.

It's been brought to my attention, that dogs that are able compete on a national level with border tending, aren't necessarily equiped with the proper instinct to move the livestock without a border present (i.e., with flanking movements). Or, another way to put it; a specialized behavior that proves advantageous for the purpose of sport, won't necessarily get the job done. Instead, they're providing other behaviors that allow them to be successful based on the grading criteria of the competition itself.

The fault of sports in general, lies in the way in which we try to quantify a given talent, while losing sight of the _real context_ in which the talent is intended to be expressed. Yet to worsen matters, for generations over, we more often make our breed-selections based on the dogs that have proven successful in the sport, rather than the actual job that they're supposed to be able to do.

Bob, I've been instructed to work on my sit/stays at home a lot, as both girls need it. Sasha might forge ahead, but not to go straight to the livestock. Nickie won't leave my side, the hard part is getting my distance without her breaking once I place her.

T, I'm going straight for the HT with both girls. I realize there's lots of easier stuff to attian, both AHBA and AKC, but to the herding people who it should matter more, I want more significant accomplishments to represent their abilities. Nickie should be no problem at all, Sasha might get one leg or both, I don't know.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Daryl, I'm still confused. HT is Herding Tested. The next level is PT, Pretrial Tested. Then we have the trial classes, HS, Herding Started; HI, Herding Intermediate and HX, Herding Advanced. If you were on the A Course with the fenceline obstacles [begins with outrun, lift and fetch to the C cone, then on to the fenceline obstacles--Y chute, Z chute, panel runway and cross drive panels] and ends with a hold off the gate and repen. Given your statement that there are easier titles in AKC and AHBA, it sounds like you are entering the initial trial class--Herding Started. However, you mention 2 legs. That's HT and PT. For Herding Started and the other trial classes, you need 3 legs. As for significant accomplishments, the die hard herders that know talent, won't need titles. Good luck and keep us posted.

T


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Just confused, pretty sure I meant PT, a "J" shaped course. We just warmed up in the smaller ring beforehand.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Okay, at the top of the arena do you have two 12 foot panels? Bascially, there's a controlled pause after removing the lead; you gather the stock; fetch/drive around the panels; demonstrate a stop on course and then reverse and go the other way and fetch/drive around the panels. Thereafter you proceed to the bottom of the cours to repen the stock? This is PT, kinda like JHD except no center obstacle and maybe a larger field.

T


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Yep, that's it.


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Saturday was the first snow of the year in Northern Colorado, so dressing warm was a must. The dogs of course were absolutely elated to bound through the snowdrifts. There were four people from Denmark competing with their ACD's, and one handler completely lost sight of his dog behind a snowdrift for several seconds, that he had to ask the observers _where's my dog?!!_

Neither of my girls passed that day, they were very much out of control. Nickie very noticeably has brought her work to an even higher level since the middle of last week, and I have yet to work on getting better control of her engrossed desire for work. With both girls, I lost the sheep more than once, and lost my time retreiving them.

Today was cold again, and very icy snowpack with no fresh powder. This time we were up at the beginning of the trial rather than near the end. There were only five entries in PT, two of them mine. Sasha and Nickie were the only ones who qualified. So, I'll have to finish their second legs next spring, and work toward getting them ready for C course in July.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Congrats on the first legs Daryl. 

Terrasita


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Big congrats!


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I've separated the pups from each other for about two weeks now, I think. Through their threesome of intense aggression toward each other, never was it directed at any of the other older dogs of the household. And I've concluded that the biggest aggressor of the three is Pitch, and especially so with her sister than with her brother. So, I've been socializing the other pair together some. Initial warnings were heeded before heating up into a fight, and they learned to be more comfortable with each other. After some time, Pia would instigate some rough play with Pike, and he took it well, playing right back. They're doing really well together. My next step, is to mend the relationship between Pitch and Pike. And I can live with the girls having to be separated if it gets no better than that.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Not surprising. These two were better matched in the first video you posted. Pitch was the odd one out. She could deal with the male then but really didn't want much to do with the sable female.


Terrasita


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Pitch still has a strong dislike for the male also, but a little slower to heat up. I have a couple seconds to get between them before they make contact. She has total respect for all of the adult dogs, though. At least for now.

But I truly screwed up today, when letting the dogs out of the crates to go outside. First Pia, who ran outside, then while the door was still open, I let the next dog out of the crate, who I thought was Pike. It was Pitch, and in a flash she was out the door, as I yelled "oh sh!#" on my way after her...

They faced each other off, and unintimidated Pia put her front legs on Pitch's shoulder, and before I could reach them they were on each other.

Ever try to break up a fight when neither dog is willing to back down, and you're the only person around? I'm telling you, it isn't easy, even when they're only four months old. Not when they're BOTH in aggression. If you manage to break grips and get one dog in each hand, spread far apart, and then what? You're out of arms.

I lifted one pup and tossed it in the pickup bed while releasing the other one. Then getting a hold of the one in both arms out of the pickup to carry to the house.

Pitch jumped up and bit Pia in the hindquarter while she was in my arms and Pia let out a howl. Rather than let Pitch dangle from us both, I set them down again, and spread them apart while getting my hand tore up, and trying to make it to the front door of the house.

Tossed Pitch into the house, barely getting the door closed, and receiving some leg bites myself in the process while trying to block them. Then took Pia to the detached garage kennel.

I've had my share of aggressive dogs, but _two of a kind_ isn't fun to deal with singlehandedly. Lost a good deal of blood myself, almost bad enough for stitches.

Pia and Pike are good kids, really, but go into an aggressive form of defense easy enough. They have the drive to fight, it's just that they don't have to _start the fight._ For Pitch, it's a priority.

I've wondered, since I no longer do schutzhund, if I should consider sending Pitch off to protection train with someone who can teach her self restraint. Her hardness, aggression, drive and grips are impressive. But when in higher drive, the handler is totally invisible. 

She's got many tremendous qualities I've been looking for, especially in a female, but the unwarranted aggression. My corrections only make her escalate all the more, they don't shut her off. I'm thinking; backtie Pia in proximity, and apply the Koehler method on Pitch. I can just imagine the disgusted reactions for "doing that to a puppy."


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Daryl:

What do you think the act of placing a paw on a shoulder means in dog language?
Go back to the puppy video and look at Pitch's initial response to Pia. Pitch has gone to total defense. Why?

Terrasita


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I realize what you're saying, but odds were good that Pia truly would've minded her own business if left alone in the first place. Pia's not directly interested in Pitch, and Pitch seems obsessed. The prior incident that left pitch with a fever and infection, has made her unforgiving, and determined to prove herself.

Pitch rushed up to her, and it was as if Pia decided to prove she wasn't intimidated. If Pitch didn't respond with aggression, there probably would've been no fight. Pia would not likely push further for a fight. So with loss of pride, that dominance demonstration triggered Pitch's eruption. If not that, then anything else would in the next second, and neither dog wants to submit to the other.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

How did the prior incident happen from start to finish? Pitch rushes out into a territory that Pia is already in. THEY face each other off. Pia calls her out in a domiance move. What did you expect Pitch to do? How long did Pitch keep turning away from Pia to the point that Pia just wouldn't leave her be and she said the hell with it? I do find the level of intensity in this to be a bit extreme for four month old puppies. What does Koos say?

Terrasita


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

There was no time for progressive build up, I was literally running after letting the second pup out of the crate, in what could have been no more than _four seconds_ before reaching them, as Pia stood up on Pitch's shoulders.

I've not talked to Koos. He would probably say "ya got to keep 'em separated" (duma$$), like probably most people would think. That's pretty much my inention, for quite a while anyway. The language of dominance is coming from the Faro Policia side, not Tiekerhook. With some time and maturity, there may be a better opportunity later, but not something to count on.

There are people who have been acquainted with many of my dogs over the years, and continually amazed how they can all be together harmoniously as a group, which they would never attempt themselves. (No, I'm not into rollerblading around like C.Milan).

It may seem excessive to assert your dominant will over a 4 month old pup. As tough as they really are though, there might be very little risk of squashing their confidence. But, as far as the handler relationship goes, Pitch would be more compliant out of fear, while Pia would be more interested in pleasing the handler (which of course, I prefer).


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Here's the arnrey cuss herself.


----------



## Ashley Pugh (Nov 9, 2007)

Daryl, she may be a little sh*t, but she's a pretty little sh*t. :grin:


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I really like her. As strong willed as she is, she's pretty quick and eager to please me.


----------



## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

and ashley--i do believe it's time to post some pics of YOUR little "sh*t". 

daryl-Pitch looks like a "looker", FWIW .


----------



## Ashley Pugh (Nov 9, 2007)

Daryl,
Her looks remind me a lot of Zoran...so does her attitude...must be the Czech in them.

Ann: Drat. Guess I'm being called out. I try to limit how much I post of him, his ego doesn't need any more inflating.


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Sorry, no pics this time, but Pitch is very lean and starting to fill out. Her head is going to be wider than Nickie's, and she'll be larger when said and done.

I had another incident Monday, while letting her out the back door, as her two siblings who I forgot were out there came in. It was easy enough to grab Pike away from the fight and toss him into a crate, but separating the girls again didn't go so easy. I dumped two coffee cans of cold water on them, thinking the shock would get them to release their grips, but no. I got them spread apart finally, one in each hand, and allowed them to settle before dragging them to their crates.

Pitch was limping for about a day, but though in pain, didn't prevent her from jumping on/off the bed. At least no broken bones, just bites. Had to get some more antibiotics for them. I've found it's really easy to give these girls pills, they just gobble them right up. I can even dispense them through the kennel door, without opening it.

Pia's head is narrower, but her build is compact. Six months old now, I worked her on sheep for the first time last Sunday, and she quickly learned to honor the borders and that her movements affected the stock. She's normally a very busy girl, hardly stills for a moment, like her mother was. But she settled very well, and focused clearly on my instructions, while paying a healthy amount of attention on the sheep.

Pitch is now the only one not exposed to livestock yet, but probably will before the month is out.


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I started a thread on Pitch. We've been pretty close for several weeks, and the bond is good.

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f22/pitch-von-ehret-13080/


----------

