# Puppy work/ tug "etiquette"



## Nick Hrycaj

Saw these videos in looking many pages back in the video section.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ig0kmS6dSAY
This trainer appears to use a rag, then puppy sleeve, then rag, etc. Seemingly its one long session but I cant vouch to that. Seems like the repeated exposure to the stimuli is sinking in with the dog and he is becoming more aggressive each time. The sleeve work seems to follow the leg (other videos from the trainer show ringsport work) which seems like a good foundation exercise. Anything else good or bad I should be seeing?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhsldzqCQwU (Start at 1:22)
I could make an identical video (if my phone would send or upload like it was supposed to) with my dog. Is the return to the handler a show of fight drive or the dog understanding the game only continues at the handler? Is there anything beside a strong, calm grip, at the back of the mouth, that we are looking to illicit? Anything that could be improved for purposes of a Police K9


----------



## rick smith

not a PSD handler but feel qualified enough to comment on the second vid….

Q’s ;

1. " Is the return to the handler a show of fight drive or the dog understanding the game only continues at the handler? "

i’m not big on trying to discuss “drives”, but imo fight drive implies some fighting (pressure) so i don’t see that happening. the handler was not putting any pressure on the doh when it was gripping

which would mean i see it as strictly a handler/K9 interactive game

2. Is there anything beside a strong, calm grip, at the back of the mouth, that we are looking to illicit? 
for most folks, tugging used as a reward or as a way to develop some targeting skills rather than developing a calm deep grip
- i suppose if the dog is changing a grip or chewing when on the tug, that might indicate a problem that needs to be worked on, but for the most part the handler is keeping the tug alive and moving it around and the dog is hanging on
- since small tugs are usually used, this would’t allow for a partial grip anyway. the dog either gets it or it misses. 
- if it only takes it with the front of the mouth, or lets go easily, etc., you probably have a weak dog that you wouldn’t want to develop as a PSD 


3. Anything that could be improved for purposes of a Police K9
- i don’t see much related to tugging and PSD work, but i think some of that session would have been more productive if the dog was asked to out and do “something" prior to restarting the tug game. 
- i also think different ways of presenting the tug would help the dog, targeting wise. actually there were very few times when then dog was outed, which made it more like one long tug session rather than a series of reps to work on anything specific …. but that’s how a lot of people use a tug 

but since a PSD handler needs to maintain firm control of their K9 when it is in drive and worked up, maybe this type of tug session would be beneficial provided the dog was required to out and not just possess the tug the whole time

probably doesn’t help much, but that’s my take on it


----------



## rick smith

i also think overlaying any working dog session with music DISTRACTS from the training benefits for those who are watching 

can't hear commands
can't hear the dog
etc


----------



## rick smith

there were a couple of kicks so i would have to say there was some pressure being applied 
- but i still would say it wasn't a session designed to see if the dog would tug while being pressured, which would make it mostly a game imo


----------



## rick smith

Nick

do you feel tugging (as it was shown in that vid) can be used to develop PSD skills ?


----------



## Nick Hrycaj

Full bite- a dog can and still does adjust grip on smaller tug surfaces (sometimes only partial first grip with the moment). I see the trainer in movie waiting for that drive into a deeper bite and rewarding with more movement.

Outting - I am beginning to see balls/ tugs/ etc as very useful to teach call offs, redirects, general targeting, outs.

Pressure- I have been adding pressure to my own dog on tug to expose him to anything I can think of a real person doing. I will not, however, have anyone else pressure on the tug. I don't like the concept of the dog choosing where to adjust the bite/ move it at all (Baden k9); still, if the dog were to readjust because the pressure indicated to him that was essential, I would see it as a necessary evil and would then expect the decoy to have a suit on to keep his limbs.

Overall- I'm waiting for someone with answers vs questions but at this point do feel police dogs can use tugs (in smaller time percentage than suit and muzzle work) to develop the above things. It allows a handler with fewer/ no decoys to work the dog solo for conditioning too.

Puppy work- if I have to ask 50 more times, so be it, i don't have a puppy to develop this instant. Why does nobody ever have anything to say about the step by step early bite work? Various vids show strong dogs at various ages. Are these dogs falling out of the sky pretrainined? Reason I care and am not just throwing in towel to make up my own system is that I don't have that much skill/ knowledge and I know how paramount foundation is...


----------



## rick smith

re: full bite
please indicate where in that vid this is going on

you are considering tugs and balls in the same way for teaching targeting ?
i gave up on balls for a few reasons :
- how do you out a ball with a possessive high drive dog ?
not referring to the bait and switch method; just outing the ball it has in its grip....
- how do you present a ball as a target with any amount of precise control ?
- i see balls as "reward only" tools....how do u use them to target ?

i feel the pain as far as pups go 
all i have is opinions...and don't raise them to bite/grip for a future as mwd/psd work...only as a reward for behaviors 
but there are plenty of members here who DO....sorry they won't step up, or maybe they just wait until the pup is more developed ???

lastly, still like to know how do you pressure your dog while tugging to increase its fight drive ? do you tug one handed ? what is the "reward" for handling the added pressure ? etc etc 

that question was interesting to me and has made me think a lot more about it
- i DO think it is possible to tug in a different way that will help later on if it is going to be doing psd work.
be glad to outline what i have come up with, but want to know what you are doing now


----------



## Sarah Platts

Nick Hrycaj said:


> aPuppy work- if I have to ask 50 more times, so be it, i don't have a puppy to develop this instant. Why does nobody ever have anything to say about the step by step early bite work? Various vids show strong dogs at various ages. Are these dogs falling out of the sky pretrainined? Reason I care and am not just throwing in towel to make up my own system is that I don't have that much skill/ knowledge and I know how paramount foundation is...


Could it be because pups can be so much an individual that it's not a one size fit all? I know I see it in the SAR world. We all have our own personal things we like to do to shape our puppies. I don't think I've seen any team take a puppy and do a cookbook method of training with any degree of success. Well, I have but those people burn through puppies until they hit on one that can handle their method.
I try not to think that choosing a puppy can be hit or miss but maybe we try to push them to far to fast and not allow them time to mature (mentally or physically). Does a police officer have the time to, while working his current dog, buy their own puppy, bring it into the home and do all the foundation training on their own, on their own time, and on their own dime? Most just don't have that kind of time. So the lack of answers could be that not so many LEO's know how to raise a puppy for the work (most getting theirs from vendors) because they can't spend 12-15 months waiting for the little guy to grow up? The other half of the coin is that the sport dog community doesn't know how to raise a puppy for the kind of work you do. Dog could work great on the field but then you would have to retrain for the street. The same way I would probably have to take a dog with an AKC tracking title and train it for the down and dirty of sar tracking. Contaminated ground, dirty starts, lots of distractions, certainly not a nice clean tracking field.
I would contact Mike Suttle to see how he runs his program. He's probably the only guy I know that raises his own pups for the kind of answers I think you are seeking.


----------



## rick smith

the KNPV people should be entering this thread

and we have more than a couple members who have trained pups for eventual police work

KNPV trains pups for primarily for police work don't they ?
and the sport is built around that goal
- what more could you ask for ?
- i think i have read that they really don't "train" puppies per say
- but with that said, i'm sure KNPV puppies get plenty of bite opportunities, whether it's formal or informal 

so, is there any reason why you don't look for KNPV vids ????


----------



## Nick Hrycaj

Mr. Smith--

Full bite: There is a reset at 1:25; 1:30; 1:50; 2:40; 2:49, 2:58; stopped caring at 3:00. The dog rapidly opens his mouth enough to push into a fuller grip.

Balls: I dont consider balls and tugs synonymous and for the record dont use balls for targeting. Still I could... Why does it matter the targeting be "precise" with the ball for example? Are arms, legs, backs not large targets? Do they not move? Like the shooting saying "aim small, miss small" - practice hitting that small ball and a bicep it cake.
For outting, I used the ball with a string, slide my hand as close to muzzle as possible, issue a verbal out, and correct into the ball with the leash for non compliance. Its possible to (not super effectivly) lift the dog off and hold the ball rope with the other hand or a foot too.

Tugs- small steps that I think sport handlers use like using wedges to teach a dog to turn his head on the leg are just as useful for the PSD. Issue being retaining enough of that civil aggression to the man that toys/ objects thrown by the subject dont have more value.

Pressure- Yes I tug one handed and then impliment features of Logan Haus videos (push against wall, jugs, sticks, ground work, pressure and objects around head). He doesn't out or begins to pull and rip more aggressively, the pressure comes off and the game continues.

KNPV - I do research mostly KNPV. I tried to contact my dogs very original breeder to find out what sort of training he got in sweeden, am trying to get Dick Staal's book, ordered the recent KNPV book discussed on here, etc. They still dont explain what they or doing or why and there is no point of reference as to where the videos fit in a dogs growth or learning curve.


----------



## Nick Hrycaj

Sarah Platts said:


> Could it be because pups can be so much an individual that it's not a one size fit all? [...] Does a police officer have the time to, while working his current dog, buy their own puppy, bring it into the home and do all the foundation training on their own, on their own time, and on their own dime? Most just don't have that kind of time. So the lack of answers could be that not so many LEO's know how to raise a puppy for the work (most getting theirs from vendors) because they can't spend 12-15 months waiting for the little guy to grow up? The other half of the coin is that the sport dog community doesn't know how to raise a puppy for the kind of work you do. Dog could work great on the field but then you would have to retrain for the street.
> I would contact Mike Suttle to see how he runs his program. He's probably the only guy I know that raises his own pups for the kind of answers I think you are seeking.


Ms. Platts,

I know very few agencies that handle all their own training and selection testing for the reasons you suggest. I know even fewer handlers that do the same.

If you read my question as LEO specific maybe others do also. That is not my intention. Some of the drive building, grip critiques, tool use has to be equal across most sports and cross into LEO stuff, right?. Even that simple stuff I want to know about. There is, the way I see it for now, a big divide between those first sessions with a puppy and when the skill specific particularization will be imparted (ex. body part targeting for specific sports)

I have not yet reached out to Tarheels or Logan Haus but might eventually. I understand they have business to run and long distance tutoring me is not exactly a top priority for most...


----------



## Sarah Platts

I know when I'm working with puppies, there are things I would like the dog to perform/do as a finished product. So I come up with games or things that may teach the skills even through they may not actually performing the physical act. The behavior to look for a lost ball is the same searching behavior to find HR or a tossed article. Manners to work with me and get along with other dogs/animals, etc all play into skills needed in the finished product. But it's all stuff, I learned/adapted/made up as I went along. Take the skills you want a finished dog to do and make up some puppy games. I know, I know this probably isn't answering your question.

So I'm gonna pretend I'm gonna train a police dog which I have never done so be kind. These are foundation aspects I think would help with a finished product.

For tugging with the puppy, I would teach the 'out' pretty early on. I won't care if he's got just a piece or the whole thing. When I say 'out' it needs to be nice and clean. At this point I'm not worried about targeting anything. I just want him letting go when I ask him to. Later on, I would work on the "type" of bite or targeting an arm or leg but after he knows the 'out'.

Ignore food and other items unless it comes from me or in his pan.

Equal time being inside the home and outside in his kennel. Learn some basic house/people social skills.

Teach the "Leave it" command and other general basic ob skills. Maybe not polished but usable.

Take s/he around with me in the car or going to new places. Intro to different kinds of flooring, going up and down stairs at the home. Take them to the local playground and letting them clammor all over the equipment including rides down the slide.

Start doing "normal" stuff that has the end purpose of increasing pressure. Doing dummy shots while playing fetch, distracting behaviors while doing tug playing, etc. Be imaginative.

Exposure to animals and not tolerating aggressive behaviors. Animal neutral.

Teaching hiding games and playing fetch where they are searching for their tug or ball. 

Teaching him to bark on command. Have someone come up to the door and to bark (and stop) on command. Reward him for spontaneous alert barking for suspicious persons or behavior (but then stop when I tell him to).

If going to be doing detection, getting some material or scented pads and start teaching the odors and indication.

I'm sure there is more but that's how I would start a puppy and then adjust as the puppy grows up and can handle more.


----------



## John Ly

If I was training a police dog (hypothetical here) the last thing I'd worried about is the out


----------



## Haz Othman

I am no great trainer but..I have done a few pups in the last couple of years and have one I am doing right now. They were all different and required differing approaches.

Some stuff I do (learned from others). Ill get the pup on a small tug or rag, make him chase it initially then when he grabs it help him set his grip if necessary and reward. Or if the grip is natural maybe a little fight then reward.

If the dog is progressing well with this I will start adding more stimulation, audibles and physical while the pup is on the bite. I also mix in tossing the tug and getting him to bring it back to me.

I always have the pup on a long line during this work so he cant run off with the toy and when he brings it back initially I will praise him and pet him not necessarily go for the tug right away. At that point I may run him around, pet him then maybe a little more tug, run around again, bring him in and pet and variations therof. I try not to be predictable and try to remove any conflict while at the same time working on building drive and possession.

I will also do certain frustration building exercises. Like holding the pup by the collar and tossing the tug in front of him. Let him pull me to the tug then Ill give it a quick kick to send it out in front again and hold him back until he barks before releasing him for it. 

Depending on the pup I have done some lift offs to build frustration then made the tug go alive by kicking it and holding the dog back.

I intro outing with two balls and or tugs. However if you do this too much you will find the dog brings the tug back and often drops it so I like to switch up and do this only occasionally.

Usually have a tug/wedge/sleeve attached to a line so I can keep it alive in his mouth and ensure he doesnt mouth it.

I personally no longer want to teach out before 6 months.

Current pup is very immature still despite being 8 months, so while I have him on a puppy sleeve I keep the work pretty tame so as not to overwhelm him.

Right now I mostly do back ties. When I switched to the half sleeve / wedge he often half asses the initial strike and grip. Initially I helped him a couple of sessions and gave him a free be by slipping right away then helping him set his grip and rewarding success.

Now I have him on the bungee and will frustrate the heck out of him with a lot of movement, misses and stimulation then offer a bite at the limit of the bungee. If he does not grip properly the bungee will pull him back off the bite and he gets nothing. When he grips I give him a bit of tug then slip and reward with some carries and bringing him in and petting / praising.

If he is half assing it I will sometimes backtie him next to my other dog and if he does not want to grip consistently I will move to my other dog and work her. Needless to say this drives him mad..which is the point. 

He is not a soft dog that falls apart at a correction but he is definitely handler sensitive unlike my last one. Makes obedience much more easy but also make protection foundation something I have to be careful with. In addition he is not from super high prey bloodlines so he is not a prey nut at all. So all that affects my approach as well.

Not an expert but just some of what I do.


----------



## rick smith

Nick
you wrote : "Why does nobody ever have anything to say about the step by step early bite work? Various vids show strong dogs at various ages. Are these dogs falling out of the sky pretrainined?"

so, is your thread and questions about how to do early bite work, or have you also included all the different things you need to train a pup that may or may not be programmed to be a PSD that might also be done by sport trainers ?

as far as whether bite work foundation would be the same for sport or police work, i say NO WAY
- yes, there are dogs who were started as sport dogs and later became psd's and they may or may not have brought along some sport baggage that might have had to be re-worked. but ANYONE who is serious about sport will be developing grip styles and targeting for their SPORT, not to engage scumbags who fight back on the street completely different than a sport decoy would act. there is NO reason for them to go to hidden equipment. a dog targeted for psd work needs it EARLY in training and imo this would also be beneficial for pups and young dogs too.

if i was going to train a psd i would DEFINITELY start doing bite work in places other than grassy fields, and the bite work would be done on concrete as much as dirt. TONS of other things i would start different
- i would NOT develop an out until i was confident the dog could handle pressure. a scumbag screaming ouch might even come close to an out command
- if you are like a LOT of K9 cops you don't care so much about a verbal out unless you are going for a cert on your dog. at least that is what i have heard from K9 LEOs and people who train with them 

- there are also some WORLD CLASS ring sport trainers who have told me personally that the dogs that don't cut the muster for ring often get sold for police work 
- i have seen a few KNPV early bite work vids and none used prey drive and flirt poles. they physically bring the dog and place it on the bite. i have also heard, but not seen, that many KNPV types don't do much with a young puppy at all except bond with it and teach it that the boss is always right. iow, compulsion rather than positive stuff with treats 
... evidently they have all left the forum or think this is stuff is too elementary to deserve their time and explanations 

but getting back to early bite work.....
keep in mind the source and if the source is a specific sport you have to realise that a good sport trainer has NO use laying a foundation for a dog to bite anywhere except on a trial field ... for points .... and never in the dark  if i was going to train a psd puppy it would start working early in its life AT NIGHT !!
- with the right dog, this makes no difference if it will be crossed over for police work. for others it can be a problem
- your call of course, but based on what you are i would only be asking about bite work for a pup who is targeted for PSD work

fwiw i think you are on the right track in introducing pressure with tug work. but what i don't understand is how you reward the dog for working through the pressure. when you went thru your scenario it sounded like when it gripped harder, you momentarily stopped the game. is that your way of telling the dog "it won" ??
- in a lot of bite work, control is rewarded .... with a bite

plus i find it hard to tug one handed and i think it is VERY hard to teach targeting by dangling a ball and see no reason why anyone would use it for that purpose; even if they could 
- if you ever find any well known trainer who teaches targeting a grip with a ball, please post their vids

anyhow....lots of rambling verbiage ... and probably still doesn't help or answer your questions //lol//
..... sorry


----------



## Haz Othman

Most LE dogs sold by vendors here are ex sport dogs that were sold for whatever reason..no real difference in the foundation.


----------



## Nick Hrycaj

haz, you're response is what I'm interested in. trained for psd or not, im looking to improve overall bite work progression knowledge.

what I am hearing is that in general there are few if any steadfast rules - each dog, sport, maturation rate, environment requires a fine tuned approach.

are there any true 'rules/ must have steps'?


----------



## Haz Othman

Not to my knowledge, I think the only rule is work the dog in front of you. Some people believe in leaving the dog to mature until 1-2 years. However, again I can see that as being dependent on what you have in front of you.

My current pup has a lot of aggression / suspicion in the blood lines. I wanted to get into his head early and teach him / promote the correct gripping style and build him in prey. I can already see those genetics surfacing from time to time so I think an early prey foundation will improve his bitework down the road and remove potential conflict.I dont think leaving him to mature with no work would have been optimal for my sport of choice. If he doesnt work out for the sport I have little doubt he will make a decent LE dog anyways regardless of my sport foundation.


----------



## Travis Ragin

Haz Othman said:


> I intro outing with two balls and or tugs. However if you do this too much you will find the dog brings the tug back and often drops it so I like to switch up and do this only occasionally.


I tend to see the act of a dog opening his jaws...on command, as just that. An obedience command. Zero conflict in prey or defense.

When a pup/dog makes the decision to drop the tug, he is obeying his own desire.....willing to release his prize for a better prize(in his eyes)-only. OB of/to the handler(pack leader) should always override any other object, man or man-made.....from the very foundation. Yes?

Couldn't this dropping of the tug as you described, be used as an opportunity to Mark the action*(out), * right at the instant it occurs? Is there possibility of conflict there?


----------



## Travis Ragin

You Ms. Platts, pretend train with more logic than some people train with 'profe$$ionally' every day.
Good stuff:!:



Sarah Platts said:


> For tugging with the puppy, I would teach the 'out' pretty early on. I won't care if he's got just a piece or the whole thing. When I say 'out' it needs to be nice and clean. At this point I'm not worried about targeting anything. I just want him letting go when I ask him to. Later on, I would work on the "type" of bite or targeting an arm or leg but after he knows the 'out'.


----------



## Haz Othman

I personally do not ever promote the dog dropping the item without first recieving a command and will never reward it. If the dog sees another toy in your hand that is one thing, but to drop the item without either being teased by a new toy or recieving a known out command is suboptimal.

I want my dogs super possessive and crazy for the toy. Yes I promote interaction with me and the toy but using the toy for sport obedience requires the dog to have significant desire to play with and posess it. 
I teach the out by simply freezing the toy as ME does and rewarding with a re grip. However, I learned the hard way on my last dog that this can cause side effects if done to early:

a) dog assumes that when the toy stops moving he should let go.
b) dog gets chewy or regrips constantly when the toy stops moving.

Again it all depends on the dog you have.

Thats why I wait now till the dog is over 6 months before I do much if any outing. I want the foundation to be gripping the toy and fighting for posession of it no matter what its doing. Maybe it makes reliable outs a bit slower in coming but I dont personally mind. 
When I play two ball sometimes the dog brings back the toy and we tug for it. Sometimes, I out as he is coming in and throw the other ball. Sometimes I tug for a bit then out him then throw that same ball..etc etc.
Sometimes Ill do a half lift off were I raise the dog by the collar as if to choke him off the toy, I pet him and encourage hime while frequently testing the grip then drop him back down and reward with some more fight and run arounds. Sometimes I do the same but wait until he lets go of the toy and then get him barking before releasing him to grab it then bring it back for more tug. 
I find this prevents the dog from assuming everytime you grab his collar he has to drop the toy which some more handler sensitive dogs tend to do.

Lately I have started playing ball or tug with two dogs sometimes as I have good control on the elder one, this promotes competition, drive and definitely builds posession IMO.


----------



## John Ly

gotta teach the dog to hold on before you teach it to let go. i think thats pretty common sense....

some people try to over complicate everything


----------



## John Ly

Haz Othman said:


> Lately I have started playing ball or tug with two dogs sometimes as I have good control on the elder one, this promotes competition, drive and definitely builds posession IMO.


how? with one ball/tug? i play with both my dogs at once (mainly because im lazy) but i have to have a tug in teach hand for each dog.


----------



## Travis Ragin

Another couple of questions,

Walking along on-leash with a 6 month old pup, who has never been taught to 'grip' or 'out'. The pup picks up a maggot infested rotting squirrel happily in its mouth and starts shaking and carrying it. What actions(if any) do you as handlers perform right then?


A nine month old 75 lbs rottweiler male who has only been taught to hold on....and never told to let go,yet.
One day, accidentally clamps down on some unfortunate living beings leg or arm, dog does show good targeting and has a very good full grip, not mouthy at all..... How does the handler get him to release?


----------



## Haz Othman

Why is the dog biting someones arm? Why is such a dog that is prone to do that for no good reason allowed to be close enough to someone for it to occur? If this happens Im grabbing the dog and physically taking him off the arm while preparing myself for imminent charges. 

As for the rotting squirrel? Simple if the dog is not biddable then lift him up by the collar and choke him off or push the upper lip into the molar at the back of him mouth until he drops.

Not a problem for my dogs because they know the difference between a toy / sleeve and garbage. They pick it up I say NO or Leave it and they listen. If not I make it happen. Most dogs are not going to generalize what they learned on a toy/sleeve with food or rotting garbage.

Ps: I would be much more worried about a Mal doing those things then any Rotty .


----------



## Nick Hrycaj

Travis, your two examples, particularly the second are apples and oranges to training. For example I would kick in the face or literally kill the rottweiler if need be. The severity of correction would not be an issue as human safety was at risk. If rotti was too scared to ever bite again, shame on me for getting us in the situation. I would blame myself for not noticing the clues preceeding the specific attack or other indicators I should not have put the dog in that situation. We are the upright creatures, we need to be smarter than them as to putting environment in our favor. 

However, a cool clip with no relevance... http://youtu.be/y_HDfy0ljhQ


----------



## Haz Othman

John Ly said:


> how? with one ball/tug? i play with both my dogs at once (mainly because im lazy) but i have to have a tug in teach hand for each dog.


Ill throw it for them they race to it the winner gets it. If its the youngster I may let the elder chase him a bit and try to get it back or Ill just call her off right away and have her platz while I reward him with some play with his prize. 
If the female gets it I will let the pup chase her around and try to grab the ball. She cant bite him with the ball in her mouth and it builds his frustration and also keeps her sharp.

Sometimes I will down the female and just play with the pup, if he gets lazy or wants to run off and lay with toy. I will release her to take part in the game and try to win the ball to get him going again.

I always have an E Collar on the elder dog just incase but 99.9% of the time voice suffices for my needs.

This works with these two individual dogs but would probably not for many others unless you had really good control..lol.


----------



## John Ly

Travis Ragin said:


> Another couple of questions,
> 
> Walking along on-leash with a 6 month old pup, who has never been taught to 'grip' or 'out'. The pup picks up a maggot infested rotting squirrel happily in its mouth and starts shaking and carrying it. What actions(if any) do you as handlers perform right then?
> 
> 
> A nine month old 75 lbs rottweiler male who has only been taught to hold on....and never told to let go,yet.
> One day, accidentally clamps down on some unfortunate living beings leg or arm, dog does show good targeting and has a very good full grip, not mouthy at all..... How does the handler get him to release?


you choke it off.

also like a rott that "accidentally" clamps down on someones arm is going to let go just because you say OUT. c'mon give me a break. 

travis ill repeat this. you sound like a google and youtube trainer


----------



## Travis Ragin

Haz Othman said:


> They pick it up I say NO or Leave it and they listen. If not I make it happen. Most dogs are not going to generalize what they learned on a toy/sleeve with food or rotting garbage.
> 
> .


Its definitely not most dogs. I was careful not to say that myself, mainly because I know for sure that they can generalize/understand, that different words can have the same meaning for a single command(or physical cues too).

You actually explained that to get your dog to open its mouth you would use a 'Leave It' command, _*or*_ a 'NO' command/correction. In addition to mentioning physical cues. All 3- 4 of those mentioned are, in effect, all combined together for the sole purpose of getting the dog to open its jaws. Just can't see a dumb dog needing any more than *one* clear cut command, to do *one* thing.

Later on,I get lazy and use more everyday/human words to replace commands, but only later....not as a foundation.

From my GrandDad down to me, 'open' has always meant the same thing, to every dog,in any situation.


----------



## Matt Vandart

rick smith said:


> i’m not big on trying to discuss “drives”, but imo *fight drive implies some fighting (pressure) so i don’t see that happening. the handler was not putting any pressure on the dog when it was gripping*


Not disagreeing with your premise Rick but that surely depends on the dog. I would be inclined to say at this point 'puppies' are not capable of real aggression but having now owned a Patterdale terrier puppy I'm not so sure.............. [-(

Not even sure if fight is aggression tbh

Aggression, pressure, drive and fight, the three most controversial words in bitework, all in one post \\/


----------



## Sarah Platts

I think when you are telling a dog to "Leave it" or "drop it" you are teaching a form of 'out'. I don't think you should go around choking out puppies in order to remove a rotting rodent or to get back a tug. I play tug alot with my dogs but when I say 'out' they better give up the tug or rag. This started with them as puppies. I would think that having this kind of control would make things easier for you down the road.


----------



## Nicole Stark

Ah, mine are pigs with gross stuff. And in my own case, I had out issues with the snipe. At the time, when everyone else I was working with had mostly compliant dogs and clean outs it bothered me. It doesn't bother me so much anymore. Well, till she gets greedy and then I start rethinking someof the stuff I allowed her to get away with until she was about 2-2 1/2 years old. 

Live and learn. I still like the dog. She entered my life when letting her grow wild and a little out of control worked for me. It certanly made things interesting and presented me with challenges I probably would never had to deal with if I had approached her early development with a different mindset.


----------



## Haz Othman

Travis Ragin said:


> Its definitely not most dogs. I was careful not to say that myself, mainly because I know for sure that they can generalize/understand, that different words can have the same meaning for a single command(or physical cues too).
> 
> You actually explained that to get your dog to open its mouth you would use a 'Leave It' command, _*or*_ a 'NO' command/correction. In addition to mentioning physical cues. All 3- 4 of those mentioned are, in effect, all combined together for the sole purpose of getting the dog to open its jaws. Just can't see a dumb dog needing any more than *one* clear cut command, to do *one* thing.
> 
> Later on,I get lazy and use more everyday/human words to replace commands, but only later....not as a foundation.
> 
> From my GrandDad down to me, 'open' has always meant the same thing, to every dog,in any situation.


No those words mean just what they sound like. Leave it means leave it. Could be something in the dogs picking up or bothering another dog. No means what you are doing is wrong stop doing it/change your behavior. Out means open your mouth.
All can be applied in the hypothetical context mentioned, I teach my pups "leave it" and "no" long before "out". However we are now splitting hairs which is pointless.


----------



## rick smith

just food for thought ....

at one time i taught a "leave it" in addition to the "no"
- i no longer use it nor teach it to other dogs

i found that a NO works just fine any situations where i wanted a dog to leave something alone, or not stay focused on something or someone, or not try and eat it, or not lift its leg and mark in an inappropriate place ..... etc etc etc 

iow....the K.I.S.S. principle


----------



## rick smith

and once it's learned, i think the NO gets reinforced easily when, if it is blown off, a stern correction follows immediately


----------



## Matt Vandart

Yah, but that is no good in a bitework situation though eh.


----------



## Catherine Gervin

Nicole Stark said:


> Live and learn. I still like the dog. She entered my life when letting her grow wild and a little out of control worked for me. It certanly made things interesting and presented me with challenges I probably would never had to deal with if I had approached her early development with a different mindset.


this really got me thinking about the two dogs i've had who were/are problem dogs. i had a fantastic APBT that killed or sought to kill anything that moved but loved babies and kids. she saved me from several certainly BAD situations by either asserting and growling that she meant it or full on trying to latch onto the villain. that said, she was basically only really obedient at nighttime--when she stuck very close because she worried about me, or so it seemed to me, since two of the very scariest incidents had been at 4 A.M. when i had gotten off work and was walking her. before those, happy go lucky girl jetting around in the dark. after those, she was all business. during the day it was her attempt at open season and i was just there to love her, feed her and foil her plans.
she was out of control but i didn't actually care. i lost her to a medical problem i could not really fix and it took me 10 years to be ready to get another dog because putting her down hurt so bad.
my current dog, my female GSD is also out of control. dogs just make her furious and we chip away at fixing this, she and i, but what you said about the way you raised the dog, the behavior you allowed (?) and who you were at the time were all connected. this never occurred to me before but it is obviously true. why do i let my dog-aggressive dog off leash ever? the near misses and vigilance necessary to prevent anything now is something i could avoid, just as i could have avoided all but the 3 of her fights in her entire life which came to her(rather than her starting them). i realized that i let her run because i am very much living on a leash 24/7 and it is a miserable thing for me. i love my dog--i don't want her to feel the way i feel. 
of course i know she's a dog and there are laws and, anyways leashes are just facets of life for the majority of dogs...it doesn't seem capable of overriding my subconscious. i never actually thought about any of this until you posted that...crazy realization!


----------



## Nicole Stark

Catherine Gervin said:


> i never actually thought about any of this until you posted that...crazy realization!


Ah, welcome to my world where the truth is what it is. 

There was never a question when that was taking place why it was. Just as when I read about posts of people having issues with their dogs, like hyper aggression, it's often just a by product of a projection of themselves or something they're channeling and bringing out in the dog. Sure there are those dogs that teeter on the edge of being "right" but more often then not what's going on with the dog is just an extension of the handlers reality - real or imagined. 

She was "out of control" in part because nearly everything we did was in overdrive. I put no limits on her and let her push and do whatever she wanted and however she wanted to. I enjoyed that time a lot, I had a good time with her and exposed her to as much as I could. Eventually, about when she turned 2 1/2 I put a little time into her OB and got her head on straight. 

When I turn her over to another handler for weight pulling, it stays together reasonably well. It's not a picture I would or do accept from her but in the hands of another it gets the job done. And no, I don't know why she pulls like that, she always has. At least she will, until she has to start working at it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGPacMpm0M0


----------



## Bob Scott

I think weight pulling is like chasing something, biting something, etc.

There can be a lot of self rewarding in it.

Think about it.

If a lion only makes a kill every 2 out of 10 them why would it keep trying? 

2 out of 10 sits is a recipe for failure in the dog training world. 

There has to be some self rewarding in the chase itself.

That seems to be the case in your weight pulling dog. Barking itself can be very self rewarding to a dog.


----------



## Travis Ragin

Nicole Stark said:


> And no, I don't know why she pulls like that, she always has. At least she will, until she has to start working at it.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGPacMpm0M0


All interesting, because my first thought when I heard the barking was that she was having a blast







. The team victory leap and chest bumping at the very end was the best part. That is another handler?

Also, it sounds like you have good grasp of that dogs mindset, once the stressors(many forms/all creatures), of this turning into a thing that 'Must' be done...the fun aspect of the task,will start decline,for all involved. My dog(s) weight pull in all weather just for exercise and to burn off some pent up energy, in my experience from entering a public organized competition..things change....the dog is still the same dog....but the *nerves* of the owner get tested and frazzled and travels down the leash. Transfers to other venues as well.

The dog apparently loves snow and pulls with excitement, could change if we took him to an event, and I started to react to evaluation fears.































__________________________________________________________________





Nicole Stark said:


> She was "out of control" in part because nearly everything we did was in overdrive. I put no limits on her and let her push and do whatever she wanted and however she wanted to. I enjoyed that time a lot, I had a good time with her and exposed her to as much as I could. Eventually, about when she turned 2 1/2 I put a little time into her OB and got her head on straight.


WE call this : 'letting a dog be a dog'. Not an easy task and very much a challenge as you mentioned. Not a job even easily understood by many *dog* owners .Hmmmmn, could this speak to the actual intelligence that a/all 'raw' dogs actually have?


----------



## Nicole Stark

Travis Ragin said:


> That is another handler?
> 
> My dog(s) weight pull in all weather just for exercise and to burn off some pent up energy, in my experience from entering a public organized competition..things change....the dog is still the same dog....but the *nerves* of the owner get tested and frazzled and travels down the leash.
> 
> WE call this : 'letting a dog be a dog'. Not an easy task and very much a challenge as you mentioned. Not a job even easily understood by many *dog* owners .Hmmmmn, could this speak to the actual intelligence that a/all 'raw' dogs actually have?


That's correct, the handler is not her owner. 

Cool on the winter pulling. That's an interesting looking dog. It might be obvious but I can't tell if he's a Rott with cropped ears or a dog of another breed. What is he?

For sure, letting the dog grow up with essentially no boundaries for as long as I did almost seems counterintuitive. Had I realized that she'd turn out to become as physically strong as she is I might have started OB with her earlier than I did. Maybe all Dutch lined dogs are just naturally ridiculously strong? I don't know but I've had pits, mastiffs, and a number of other large breeds (Newfoundlands, Airdale, Rotts, American Bulldogs) and never have had one come close to what she brings.


----------

