# Blue Malinois



## Esa Rasimus

I've only ever seen 2 , what I observed to be Blue Mals in my lifetime, was wondering if this shade has anything to do with too close of a line-breeding and are there any health risks or concerns on breeding to this particular colour ? ? ? 

or is it just the case of nudge, nudge, wink, wink, there's nothing wrong used car salesman "mentality" of marketing to unsuspecting owners ?


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## Kadi Thingvall

It's a simple recessive gene, like the long hair, so it's not a case of "to close" of linebreeding. Just a case of having 2 parents that each carry a copy of the gene. A breeding could be a really loose linebreeding or even an outcross and still have the color show up, although it seems to be more prevalent in certain lines because of linebreeding on known carriers.

As far as health goes it seems to vary from dog to dog. Some don't seem to have any issues, however I have also seen multiple blues with skin/coat problems, some pretty severe, and also immune issues. I'd say it's similar to blue in Dobermans, who are also known to have problems associated with the color, sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you don't.

Personally I'll avoid producing blues if I can, and if I do produce one I'll have to think long and hard about what to do with it. I have 1 dog I know carries blue, she produced blue pups prior to me purchasing her, any breedings done with her are done specifically hoping to avoid doubling up on the gene. I don't know if her daughter carries it also, but she will also be bred with the hopes of avoiding doubling up.


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## Kadi Thingvall

I should also add that the normal colored pups I've seen from a blue parent with problems, don't seem to have the issues their parents have had, so it does seem to be color linked. However, all puppies from a blue parent will carry blue, so its possible it will crop up again down the road, depending on how they are bred.


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## Mo Earle

my Gatorland Chico 11, an awesome dog- was involved in FR, and ASR with his first owner, then I put him PSA, NVBK....he was an awesome dog IMO....and well known by a lot of people threw blue pups- I will have to dig out their pictures, I love the color-but of course in the states especially it is considered a fault. If I can find them I will post them.


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## Esa Rasimus

Thanks Kadi for the explanation


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## Grant Cusworth

I have a "blue" mal as well. I've bred him to a dark red mal and the litter produced a couple that weren't blue like Saphir was, but weren't as red as the others.

As far as health goes, i've gotten lucky and Saphir is the only one of our 4 mals without any allergies, skin problems, etc... Good to know from Kadi that he's not the norm. To my knowledge, all the pups have been healthy with nothing popping out as of yet.

Grant


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## Kadi Thingvall

Grant Cusworth said:


> I have a "blue" mal as well. I've bred him to a dark red mal and the litter produced a couple that weren't blue like Saphir was, but weren't as red as the others.


Do you have any photos? I'm betting based on pedigree they are black/fawn Malinois, just the fawn isn't as red as some of the other pups.



> Good to know from Kadi that he's not the norm.


I don't know if I'd say he's not the norm, but of the blue dogs I know it's about a 50/50 split between healthy and having issues.


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## Geoff Empey

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I don't know if I'd say of the blue dogs I know it's about a 50/50 split between healthy and having issues.


What type of issues health and otherwise?


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## Kadi Thingvall

Geoff Empey said:


> What type of issues health and otherwise?


Skin/coat problems, some pretty severe, and also autoimmune issues.


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## Bob Scott

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Skin/coat problems, some pretty severe, and also autoimmune issues.




Also common in blue Dobes and other blue colored dogs.
The Wiemarainer (sp) coat is silver to dark gray but they have a few with the blue coat which carries skin/coat issues also.


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## Geoff Empey

Bob Scott said:


> Also common in blue Dobes and other blue colored dogs.
> The Wiemarainer (sp) coat is silver to dark gray but they have a few with the blue coat which carries skin/coat issues also.


I've seen some breeders touting the praises of white dobes and they figure very promenently in their marketing plans. I understand that they are affected by deafness as well as the allergies and other same assorted health issues. But people think they are pretty!!! :-({|=[-X

Are Blue Malinois affected by deafness too? What about other neurological issues that can't be blamed by diet and other mitigating factors?


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## Michael Swetz

The white dobes are actually albinos I think. I dont' know if that causes the same genetic correlation with deafness that you see with other non-albino white dogs. I do know they sunburn pretty easily.


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## Kadi Thingvall

Geoff Empey said:


> Are Blue Malinois affected by deafness too? What about other neurological issues that can't be blamed by diet and other mitigating factors?


Not that I'm aware of, I haven't actually heard of a deaf Malinois, of any color. I'm sure there is one out there somewhere, but it's not something I'd consider an issue in the breed. Same for neurological issues.

The white Dobe is actually some form of albino. It's not a full albino, because they do have faint markings on the legs and face, and the eyes are blue not pink. Main issues I've heard of in them is sunburn, eye issues (vision/squinting from lack of pigment) and temperament, haven't heard about deafness issues. But it's been a few years since I researched them, back when I had Dobes and the whites first started showing up.


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## Geoff Empey

Yes this 'white' dobe I saw had blue eyes and some splotchy dashes of colour here and there. Worth big bucks ... so I'm told.  Sorta like pygmy panda cattle! 

So back to blue Malinois when and if a Blue is bred what are the chances of it throwing blues pups? Or are the pups just carriers of the recessive gene even if they look normal in other ways?


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## Maren Bell Jones

A trait that's dominant shows up in the heterozygous individual and is not seen outwardly in the phenotype but carried for the recessive trait in the genotype (take note, Jeff :lol. So if blue is a simple recessive and fawn/red/standard Malinois color is dominant, it'd go over something like this:

FF=homozygous dominant=Fawn
Ff=heterozygous=Fawn but carries blue
ff=homozygous recessive=blue

If you breed a blue carrier but who looked fawn (i.e.-Ff) with the following, you'd get:

-with a homozygous dominant: all would look fawn, but half would be carriers (heterozygous), the others would be homozygous dominant
-with a heterozygous: 3/4 would be fawn (but 2 of those 3 would be carriers) and 1/4 would be blue
-with a homozygous recessive: half would be fawn but would be carriers, the other half would be blue

The only way to get all blue pups is to breed two blues.

I've seen a white Doberman only once in person. It looked like a strangely colored Weimaraner.


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## Kadi Thingvall

I think it's easiest to see if it's viewed graphically.

This graphic comes from http://anthro.palomar.edu/mendel/mendel_2.htm which has a more depth description.

"A" would be a dominant red allele
"a" would be the recessive blue

each dog has 2 of these, so AA, Aa, or aa

Any dog with an "A" is going to be red, even if it also has an "a". Any dog with "aa" will be a blue.

Breed a red who carries blue (Aa), to a blue (aa), and the Punnett square would look like this








Statistically half the pups would be red, and half would be blue

Breed 2 red dogs who both carry blue (ie Aa) and you would get








Statistically out of 4 pups you would get 1 "pure red", 2 red pups who carry blue, and 1 blue pup

A red dog who doesn't carry blue (AA) bred to a blue dog (aa) would produce all Aa pups.


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