# opinions........decoy corrections.......



## tracey schneider

Thoughts about decoy corrections or barrage attacks to correct behavior.............what is the worst you have ever seen or would tolerate?

t


----------



## Kyle Sprag

"barrage attacks to correct behavior"

what is this?


----------



## tracey schneider

PM sent :-$


----------



## David Frost

Decoy corrections. That has to be a sport thing.

DFrost


----------



## Chris Michalek

Kyle Sprag said:


> "barrage attacks to correct behavior"
> 
> what is this?


I want to know what that is too. is it so bad it can only be told in PMs?


----------



## Mike Scheiber

Kyle Sprag said:


> "barrage attacks to correct behavior"
> 
> what is this?


I want to know to sounds like it could be a secretive maneuver of some sorts


----------



## Mike Scheiber

I'm not a fan of helper corrections I prefer my dog to have little respect for the helper but must play by the rules helper has to keep himself safe so if he needs to correct the dog I prefer it done very quickly with out a big production or conflict. Bumping and being dirty the collar is the way to go. Dropping the sleeve is another option not my thing guess it depends on the helper and the dog.


----------



## Howard Gaines III

Since when does the 'Bad guy" give corrections? This is the job of the handler, the person the DOG is responsible to and working for!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And it works for praise as well...


----------



## Mike Di Rago

I also believe the correction must come from the handler not the helper. I would expect my dog to bite a helper who tried to correct him. It is up to the handler to correct, otherwise he isn't doing his job. Handler don't just hold the leash! 
But then again I could be wrong!
Mike


----------



## Gillian Schuler

With my last dog, I gave the corrections but have since had to revise my ways. The breeder was the helper and a good one and the first time he let my dog go to a new helper, big B raced in an tried to get hold of him, was corrected by me but I was corrected by our helper - at least I heard him say "scheisse!" 

He corrected all the "dirty" dogs with his bare hands (no "barrage") but the dogs didn't lose one ounce of confidence or drive - on the contrary, they were just as "out for the kill" but contained.

Some clubs train with a helper's helper who picks up the long lead as the dog comes in to the hide and prevents him from biting or the dog is sent by the handler to the hide from a short distance and the lead is in the hand of the helper's helper from the start. This way the handler remains cool and can give the commands calmly.


----------



## Howard Gaines III

Gillian Schuler said:


> ...Some clubs train with a helper's helper who picks up the long lead as the dog comes in to the hide and prevents him from biting or the dog is sent by the handler to the hide from a short distance and the lead is in the hand of the helper's helper from the start. This way the handler remains cool and can give the commands calmly.


And this is why I like an e-collar...sometimes. A good helper's helper can and should be able to read the scenario and apply the electric adjustmant when the time is "right." No conflict is then seen at the handler or decoy level,it just came from "someplace."


----------



## tracey schneider

LOL. Well there are a few reasons I will only go into detail in PM. One is respect as it is a small world, two is that maybe I am paranoid but you never know who or what kind of people are reading these boards. Personally don’t think what happened was THAT bad but Ive seen some “stuff” some may not agree with and a few years a back I wouldn’t have thought twice about it. But on to the new dog trying to improve and not make the same mistakes and progress forward. 
Id really like to keep this thread more “general”. Im not sure how I feel about helper corrections……… this is the reason for the post. In the past I had no issue. Now I am wondering……. shouldnt the dog/ handler be controlling the helper and not the other way around…….. even a simple SIT on the revier, should that be accepted?
Gillian your post was exactly the type of response I was looking for.
Thanks,
T


----------



## tracey schneider

mike / chris pms sent.


----------



## David Frost

Can I now infer that decoy corrections is some kind of double naught spy stuff????????

DFrost


----------



## Mike Di Rago

I think that having helper corrections and saying the dog was ''out for the kill'' in the same sentence is a bit funny. If you are not the one correcting your dog then, I would think you are just having a retrieving dog and not a protection dog.The dog is only learning to retrieve a sleeve that the helper is holding and that the helper decides when the dog gets the sleeve. All nice but not protection work. And if you limit yourself to this kind of work, no sense wasting money on ''good tough working lines'' as any good retrieving dog will do the same.
Mike


----------



## tracey schneider

David Frost said:


> Can I now infer that decoy corrections is some kind of double naught spy stuff????????
> 
> DFrost


hahahaha. well it can be anything from verbally giving your dog a command to harsh physical corrections for inappropriate behaviors. Is ANY of it ok? I used to think yes, now Im not so sure.

t


----------



## Chris Michalek

guys, without saying exactly what happened, Tracey is more or less talking about the dog getting "cleaned up" Sounds like the dog respects the helper now.

I've seen similar things with helpers.

Tracey one thing to note. Decoys and Helpers are two different things. A good helper will help your dog power into bites, be cleaner in the blind and be more confident in general. A good decoy gets the dog to think on its feet. Of course there is more to it....

Not all helpers are good. I just heard a story about a young dog that was worked by a larger helper, the helper never gave into the dog's display of aggression and in fact met the dog with more aggression before it could handle it. In short, that dog who is from very good lines has severe issues in protection.

what you lamented isn't what I would call a correction. It was more about teaching respect to a dirty dog. In schH dogs generally aren't trained to bite the man for real as he's required to bite the sleeve, so he got cleaned up for biting flesh.


----------



## Kadi Thingvall

When I am teaching a dog something in the bitework, I am doing exactly that, teaching. I don't want my dog in "out for the kill" mode, I want them learning a new skill. The decoy in this situation is their partner, not their enemy. If I am right there, then there is no reason for me to not be the one giving the guidance/corrections. But if I'm half way down the field, I have no problem with the decoy being the one giving the dog guidance, wether it's through verbal help or leash manipulation. Same with using the electric later, the decoy is the one who is right there with the dog, and can see nuances of what is going on that I can miss since I'm behind them, or down the field, etc. Does it really matter to the dog (do they even know? Not if done right) that it's the decoy pressing the button and not me? 

I haven't trained a dog yet who didn't know the difference between their normal club training decoy (a sparing partner) and working "real scenarios" whether it was muzzle, hidden sleeve/suit, civil, etc. Doesn't mean the don't occasionally try to get stupid with the club decoys, but if they do I will clean their clock, and they know that.


----------



## tracey schneider

Chris Michalek said:


> Sounds like the dog respects the helper now.


umm not sure about that part lol........but Chris thank you so much for taking the time.........my head has been spinning with different theories etc. I just dont want to screw this one up.

t


----------



## Julie Ann Alvarez

Our TD does some corrections as well as tell the dog he's a good boy (like in the live blind when the handler can not be there as quickly as the dog).

With special cases he has been known to give corrections (like with hard dogs that have handler respect issues). As I see it in this case it is more the handlers problem because he/she is not effective in the corrections (the dog doesn't believe him/her so he does not respect him/her).


----------



## Howard Gaines III

David the word, "Infer" am I to understand it this way...if the decoy doesn't know what he/she is doing, you're infer trouble?


----------



## David Frost

tracey delin said:


> hahahaha. well it can be anything from verbally giving your dog a command to harsh physical corrections for inappropriate behaviors. Is ANY of it ok? I used to think yes, now Im not so sure.
> 
> t


I can only speak from a police dog perspective. I would want a dog to fight harder the more the decoy fought. If the decoy can get compliance on one of my dogs, I don't want him working the street. Just my opinion.

DFrost


----------



## David Frost

Howard Gaines III said:


> David the word, "Infer" am I to understand it this way...if the decoy doesn't know what he/she is doing, you're infer trouble?


I ain't one of them there English majors. Maybe I should have said, "it leads me to believe"

ha ha, ok, after I posted I got that, geez. I really need to lighten up today. I'm having a really, really bad day.

DFrost


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

I find the original poster left out way too much about what happened.

Yes David, I think Jethro Bodine is in the house as well.

This is a good quote: I would expect my dog to bite a helper who tried to correct him.

Many people don't want to find out that their dog will go along with the decoy correction. I have seen many dogs let out and go back to their handler from a decoy correction for being dirty.

I do not understand how anyone can think the way that some of you do. When the dog goes to club and works on the same people 95% of the time, that this dog is going to think anything of a correction from them. There are dogs that DO NOT LIKE TO BE CORRECTED. LOL But I have doubts that after all the years of training dogs that they will just "punk out" because some random, not very likely at all criminal act will occur.

Having said that, a decoy correction should be done minimally, and only to get the dog correct. Of course being that I do sport, if the decoy is too weak with his correction, then the dog will learn to ignore it. Maybe that is something to consider in your training, if you think it is that big a deal. Or maybe you should not be out walking in bad places with a correction collar on your dog. LOL

There was a nice example shown recently of this "silly" civil training, where the decoy goes hog wild, and the dog is given a tug and the dog actually takes the tug. LOL a good example of what crap it really is. If the dog actually was civil, he would not take the tug, but continue to try and get to the decoy. That is something that is in the character of the dog, and not something you can train.

If you are training with a decoy that goes overboard, then you need to discuss it with them, and if they do not see things your way, then you need to use someone else. Unfortunately with the shortage out there, this is not always an option, and with some decoys sensitive nature, they do this work as a sense of being in control, and that is not proper.


----------



## Terry Devine

Howard are you trying to start a ******* work thread????????

Terry


----------



## tracey schneider

David Frost said:


> I can only speak from a police dog perspective. I would want a dog to fight harder the more the decoy fought. If the decoy can get compliance on one of my dogs, I don't want him working the street. Just my opinion.
> 
> DFrost


Ok but the question really isnt just about fighting.........would you allow your decoy/ helper whatever to tell your puppy in training to out? to sit? any commands or corrections? to respect him in that way?

t


----------



## David Frost

tracey delin said:


> Ok but the question really isnt just about fighting.........would you allow your decoy/ helper whatever to tell your puppy in training to out? to sit? any commands or corrections? to respect him in that way?
> 
> t


No, the dog (in my business) should not respond to any commands from the decoy. We actually train with the decoy trying to command the dog to release. Fight only brings on fight.

See this link, this is what I would expect from a good dog.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKDh...m/videos/videos/18816&feature=player_embedded

Notice the dog didn't pay any attention to the "tug", the bag that he was struck with, nor did he pay any heed to being tossed around by someone actually wanting to do harm. The focus was on the "bad guy", even when the bad guy is being tased and handled by multiple officers.

DFrost


----------



## tracey schneider

*I find the original poster left out way too much about what happened.*

ding ding ding........we have a winner johnny lol.........sorry coudlnt help it. Yes that was intentional and after being privy to another post Im glad I did.:-$ Im getting some good feedback in PMs and that is where the specifics will stay. 

The "incident" got me thinking about the theory all together so this question is supposed to be more general........would you or would you not allow for decoy/ helper corrections and to what extent? That is the question. Verbal, puppy, adult, green, advanced, physical etc. Is there a conflict of interest in this or is some acceptable?


*I do not understand how anyone can think the way that some of you do. When the dog goes to club and works on the same people 95% of the time, that this dog is going to think anything of a correction from them. *

*Having said that, a decoy correction should be done minimally, and only to get the dog correct.* 

interesting point, thank you 

*If the dog actually was civil, he would not take the tug, but continue to try and get to the decoy. That is something that is in the character of the dog, and not something you can train.*

What about trying to train or correct it out? YOu have to make the dog "safe" or no?

t


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Mike Di Rago said:


> I think that having helper corrections and saying the dog was ''out for the kill'' in the same sentence is a bit funny. If you are not the one correcting your dog then, I would think you are just having a retrieving dog and not a protection dog.The dog is only learning to retrieve a sleeve that the helper is holding and that the helper decides when the dog gets the sleeve. All nice but not protection work. And if you limit yourself to this kind of work, no sense wasting money on ''good tough working lines'' as any good retrieving dog will do the same.
> Mike


Oh! c'mon. What's a correction from the helper, timely given, got to do with a dog who only learns to retrieve the sleeve. Such dogs don't need corrections.

I admit "out for the kill" probably wasn't a very good expression. I meant to convey that the dogs didn't lose on substance. Some of them are / were tough dogs from extremely good German working lines that don't get deflated because of an odd correction, or two.

Apart from this, if you go to a helper, you either trust him or don't. If you do trust him, he can best work your dog if you cooperate with him. This is the way the sports protection work is done over here. Right or wrong this helper worked dogs that reached the podest at the WUSV.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: If the dog actually was civil, he would not take the tug, but continue to try and get to the decoy. That is something that is in the character of the dog, and not something you can train.

What about trying to train or correct it out? YOu have to make the dog "safe" or no?

Not sure what you are asking here. I was refering to the practice of "civil" work, and how the dog responded by taking the tug, and ignoring the previously savage "civil" decoy. LOL


----------



## Howard Gaines III

Corrections work...we had 2 folks hauled out of our school for boinking little girls, 16yo. The history teacher yesterday and today the athletic trainer! Both under 26 and f#[email protected] up their teaching career!!!


----------



## Edward Egan

Timely question.
My dog just developed an issue on the call out of the blind, were at he Heir command he takes a cheap shot on the sleeve. 
We tried handler corrections on prong, result = no real change, dirty next time out.
We tried cheap shot = off to the truck, no more protection.
We tried repeat revier until he was clean on call out, then got a bite, some success, but next session was dirty again.
Last night I had a very experienced helper and explained the problem. He advised that maybe a helper correction was in order. I agreed to give it a try. 
So he was dirty on the call out of the blind, and the helper wacked him in the legs with a whip. My dog changed dramatically and went into a defensive bark and tried to bite the whip the first time. Called out and sent for a reviere again. He was clean but was still in defense. The helper walked out of the blind slowly pushing into my dog, while my dog kept the hold and bark going. He did seem a little tenative at first, but kept the defensive bark going, but was more confident the second time we did this. He hasn't had much pressure put on him in a while other than stick hits on a drive.

This has always been an issue at the clubs around here. Many helpers think that under certian circumstances the helper needs to correct the dog, while other helpers were dead set against it. I always leaned toward the no helper corrections until last night.

I'm not certain the issue is fixed, we will see. Any thoughts on this is welcome.


----------



## Mike Di Rago

Gillian,
Don't get me wrong. I understand what you are doing and respect the fact you are working dogs. I just wouldn't do that with a police dog. And as far as WUSV, not taking anything away from anyone but many of the dogs are strictly prey and do well. I don't think it is fair to compare the two.
Mike


----------



## Mike Scheiber

Howard Gaines III said:


> Corrections work...we had 2 folks hauled out of our school for boinking little girls, 16yo. The history teacher yesterday and today the athletic trainer! Both under 26 and f#[email protected] up their teaching career!!!


And ware were you;-) just watching I hope


----------



## Julie Ann Alvarez

Edward Egan said:


> Timely question.
> My dog just developed an issue on the call out of the blind, were at he Heir command he takes a cheap shot on the sleeve.
> We tried handler corrections on prong, result = no real change, dirty next time out.
> We tried cheap shot = off to the truck, no more protection.
> We tried repeat revier until he was clean on call out, then got a bite, some success, but next session was dirty again.
> Last night I had a very experienced helper and explained the problem. He advised that maybe a helper correction was in order. I agreed to give it a try.
> So he was dirty on the call out of the blind, and the helper wacked him in the legs with a whip. My dog changed dramatically and went into a defensive bark and tried to bite the whip the first time. Called out and sent for a reviere again. He was clean but was still in defense. The helper walked out of the blind slowly pushing into my dog, while my dog kept the hold and bark going. He did seem a little tenative at first, but kept the defensive bark going, but was more confident the second time we did this. He hasn't had much pressure put on him in a while other than stick hits on a drive.
> 
> This has always been an issue at the clubs around here. Many helpers think that under certian circumstances the helper needs to correct the dog, while other helpers were dead set against it. I always leaned toward the no helper corrections until last night.
> 
> I'm not certain the issue is fixed, we will see. Any thoughts on this is welcome.


Edward has any one mentioned that your dog might be experiencing some handler conflict? The reason I ask is that we have a first time handler/ club member who has a decent dog but is some what over training for the dogs age. He is adamant that he will get the BH and SchH1 on the same weekend (this July) and the dog is not yet 2. His dog is doing the same thing and I have a strong suspicion that it has to do with all of the OB/pressure put on the dog in order to get his secondary OB quickly. 

That beind said the defense in the blind sounds better. Now he is more worried about the helper than you and I think my TD would do the same thing. Plus his barking is probably much more believeable.

This topic could really use it's own thread under the Schhz area I think. 

Sorry to go OT =; .

Peace,

Julie


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: He is adamant that he will get the BH and SchH1 on the same weekend (this July) and the dog is not yet 2.

I am not sure why this would matter at all. It is not brain surgery, is it a training problem that keeps a two year old dog from doing this simple shit ????


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Ok Mike but there was no mention of the fact that this thread was about police dogs only.

Neither was the question about how much would you tolerate from the helper in the form of corrections with pups or what do you call "pups". For me they stop being a pup at 6-7 months and are there after known as a young dog until roughly 15-24 months. I've not known a helper that's physically corrected a pup, maybe just re-directed it.

The same helper trains police dogs and so I see a lot of the training which is more or less the same as ours until the 12-18 month old dog goes in for his 2-year intensive police dog training.

I'm asking this because I literally "jumped" into a thread without realising it was solely about "hunting" dogs and wouldn't like to make the same mistake twice.

As for your nice comments about the WUSV, why would you assume that all the WUSV competitors have "prey" dogs. Some of these dogs double-up as police dogs, I know of quite a few. Ajax Haus Hartmann was known as one of the best police dogs in the country and still excelled at sport, just to mention one. Our police buy their dogs on the whole from the same breeders we buy our sport dogs from.

I guess you're not so very knowledgeable as I thought - I enjoyed your posting on the e-collar and the thinking out of what one is going to put the dog through first but now I'm disappointed.

Instead of condescending dribble, maybe you could resort to "sachliche" arguments.

P.S. A very good GSD / Malinois working dog pup goes for Euros 700 over here so why the hell shouldn't I have a few as pets if I want to. One of mine would double up as a so-called protection dog if I wanted him to. I don't expect you to believe it, however, but had more trouble teaching him not to bite than otherwise.

No hard feelings, I don't usually get so rattled but having read once about "arrogant Germans" I'm just doing a wee bit of thinking. 

See ya, maybe!


----------



## Julie Ann Alvarez

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: He is adamant that he will get the BH and SchH1 on the same weekend (this July) and the dog is not yet 2.
> 
> I am not sure why this would matter at all. It is not brain surgery, is it a training problem that keeps a two year old dog from doing this simple shit ????


LOL Jeff. Of course it is a training problem. The dog is being rushed, the handler is over-bearing and trying to teach too many things at once rather than making sure the other stuff is solid first. It is confusing to the dog. Now each time the handler approach's the dog feels the need to try to take a cheap shot. If he would have done things differently the dog would probably get stronger when he approaches not weaker right? 

Like I said this could use it's own thread under the Schh area so Jeff doesn't need to be bored with our "stupid sport talk".

Peace out!

Julie


----------



## Gillian Schuler

As far as I know, Jeff does sport, too.

The difference between Jeff and many sports and "so-called" sports people on this forum is that Jeff knows how a dog ticks and this is made evident by his posts. With this knowledge you can enter almost any venue with the dog or at least have a good understanding of it. I've never had the feeling I should apologise to him for stupid sport talk. He lets me know when I lean out of the window too far.

That wasn't a compliment Jeff, that was just fact. f....d up facts.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Like I said this could use it's own thread under the Schh area so Jeff doesn't need to be bored with our "stupid sport talk".

See the AB person coming out in you ?? LOL You are not allowed to be pissed at another thread when you come to this thread. : )

The other thing is that I do sport, and not PP.


----------



## Edward Egan

Julie Ann Alvarez said:


> Edward has any one mentioned that your dog might be experiencing some handler conflict? The reason I ask is that we have a first time handler/ club member who has a decent dog but is some what over training for the dogs age. He is adamant that he will get the BH and SchH1 on the same weekend (this July) and the dog is not yet 2. His dog is doing the same thing and I have a strong suspicion that it has to do with all of the OB/pressure put on the dog in order to get his secondary OB quickly.
> 
> That beind said the defense in the blind sounds better. Now he is more worried about the helper than you and I think my TD would do the same thing. Plus his barking is probably much more believeable.
> 
> This topic could really use it's own thread under the Schhz area I think.
> 
> Sorry to go OT =; .
> 
> Peace,
> 
> Julie


I don't believe it's off topic. The OP asked a very vage question and many were asking for more details in order to understand the circumstances. I provided more details in order to get a perspective on when/if helper corrections are warranted.
Handler conflict may be a factor, I've been doing OB during protection, however I've taken it slow. I'll back off on the pressure for OB during protection and see if it helps. I have no pressure for trialing him until this winter, he is currently 2 1/2, and we are training for a Sch 1.

Thanks


----------



## Edward Egan

Julie Ann Alvarez said:


> LOL Jeff. Of course it is a training problem. The dog is being rushed, the handler is over-bearing and trying to teach too many things at once rather than making sure the other stuff is solid first. It is confusing to the dog. Now each time the handler approach's the dog feels the need to try to take a cheap shot. If he would have done things differently the dog would probably get stronger when he approaches not weaker right?
> 
> Like I said this could use it's own thread under the Schh area so Jeff doesn't need to be bored with our "stupid sport talk".
> 
> Peace out!
> 
> Julie


Well it's not the same then, my dog takes a cheap shot when called out of the blind, I don't pick up the dog.


----------



## Julie Ann Alvarez

Edward Egan said:


> Well it's not the same then, my dog takes a cheap shot when called out of the blind, I don't pick up the dog.


I think it is very similar. You are removing the dog from what it wants most.

The handler dog team that I am referring to also have had the same problem when calling out. Your probably a better handler and you might have a stronger dog.

Again- we are getting off topic and maybe we should start another thread on conflict?

Julie


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Like I said this could use it's own thread under the Schh area so Jeff doesn't need to be bored with our "stupid sport talk".
> 
> See the AB person coming out in you ?? LOL You are not allowed to be pissed at another thread when you come to this thread. : )
> 
> The other thing is that I do sport, and not PP.


That's not quite true - you do sometimes "PP" on other people's posts,=P~ =P~ =P~


----------



## Julie Ann Alvarez

Gillian Schuler said:


> That's not quite true - you do sometimes "PP" on other people's posts,=P~ =P~ =P~


[email protected] Gillian.... Peepee...heehee

I guess I should rephrase.

"stupid schutzhund talk" is that better Jeff?


----------



## tracey schneider

NO I like stupid sch talk and conflict is very much a part and reason for this thread..............so I think it all fits.

t


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Julie Ann Alvarez said:


> [email protected] Gillian.... Peepee...heehee
> 
> I guess I should rephrase.
> 
> "stupid schutzhund talk" is that better Jeff?


For god's sake woman, stop kowtowing [-o< [-o< [-o<


----------



## Mike Di Rago

Gillian,
I am sorry you seem to take my comments personally, when they are addressing a training technique and not people. I also didn't say all WUSV were prey but that many are prey trained.
For the rest, feel free to think what you want, thats what I do!
Mike


----------



## Edward Egan

Julie Ann Alvarez said:


> I think it is very similar. You are removing the dog from what it wants most.
> 
> The handler dog team that I am referring to also have had the same problem when calling out. Your probably a better handler and you might have a stronger dog.
> 
> Again- we are getting off topic and maybe we should start another thread on conflict?
> 
> Julie


I wish to stay on topic which is helper corrections, not turn it into a conflict thread. I've given an example of a helper induced correction that he felt would correct the issue. I wish to know what people believe under these circumstances.


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Mike, 

I'm not taking it personally. What gives you this impression? If you have insight into the training of each and every WUSV dog, then who am I to argue with you. 

It would interest me to know which dogs you think are prey?

It's easy to say something but much harder to back one's assumptions with the hard facts.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Thank God for those prey bites, it is so much easier to train a dog that bites in prey, as we all know they just don't hurt.](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) 

Really ?? Really ?? Who taught you this shit ?? You need to go back and slap them for teaching you wrong. You are like that guy in Kung Pow, the way of the fist. LOL


----------



## tracey schneider

Well i started the post and I say CONFLICT is very much a part of this post......so there  . 

If helper corrections dont create or potentially create conflict there is no issue with them right? 

So it is a conflict of interest, of training, of whatever to have the helper correct the dog? Does it make things a little unclear to the dog?

another thing, i read this fast so please correct.......did someone say that if a dog is worried/ conflicted about the handler make it more worried/ conflicted about the helper instead? did i read that right? if so id like to hear more on that theory.

t


----------



## Edward Egan

OK, conflict with the helper I can see, but conflict with the handler was not mentioned in the OP. But hey, it's your thread.

Where's all the experienced helpers opions???


----------



## Dan Long

Howard Gaines III said:


> Corrections work...we had 2 folks hauled out of our school for boinking little girls, 16yo. The history teacher yesterday and today the athletic trainer! Both under 26 and f#[email protected] up their teaching career!!!


I think your former principal set the bar for those activities!


----------



## Julie Ann Alvarez

tracey delin said:


> Well i started the post and I say CONFLICT is very much a part of this post......so there  .
> 
> If helper corrections dont create or potentially create conflict there is no issue with them right?
> 
> So it is a conflict of interest, of training, of whatever to have the helper correct the dog? Does it make things a little unclear to the dog?
> 
> another thing, i read this fast so please correct.......did someone say that if a dog is worried/ conflicted about the handler make it more worried/ conflicted about the helper instead? did i read that right? if so id like to hear more on that theory.
> 
> t



Tracey- I think one would have to factor in many attributes of the dog, his drive, temperment, training level, as well as the handler abilities before deciding if a helper correction would be appropriate (for SchH). The timing would also be critical. 

I would not allow just any helper to correct my dog, we would have to talk about it and I would have to have faith that he would do what I ask. 

I imagine helper correction could cause conflicts if you put them on the wrong dog at the wrong time or use them continuously. That being said after the correction we would have to allow the dog some way of getting his power back so he can dominate the helper again.

If a dog in so unclear that he needs helper corrections in each session I would think that you would have to take a serious look at your dog & your training program.


----------



## tracey schneider

thanks Julie, you make some valid points for sure.

I went from not thinking twice about them, to really questioning if a helper should ever give a dog a command or a correction to now thinking...............as long as it is not ongoing or continual and kept in balance as you also said. 

In some dogs it may knock the dog down in others it may take them to another level.......not sure either is a good place for a dogs mind to be when trying to teach and train. But I guess if you balance then all should be well...........hopefully ](*,) 

thank to all that participated O 

t


----------



## Gillian Schuler

I read an article describing the advantages, disadvantages for all 3 types of correction.

Helper correction, third person and handler.

It stated the dog always knows where the correction comes from even if carried out by 3rd person.

Too much handler correction could, depending on the dog, could make the dog unsure.

Unsureness if helper corrects directly.

The corrections our helper made didn't usually need repeating. He is a pretty strong minded bloke and sometimes a gesture, look, could afterwards remind the dog not to try to bite in the hide.

It also recommended the e-collar as the best.

Dr. Raiser's "Contact" video is very good but only in German.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

If you are using the decoy to make a correction, or considering it, in my opinion you have to look at where you went wrong first. Now sometimes the look that you want is this spun up screaming around the blind dog. Unfortunately, there are dogs that if you do that to them, they are gonna bite, so maybe this is the problem. Gotta do what your individual dog is capable of.

In Sch the third person is better in the blind, as he can stand where the judge does. LOL

THe decoy should have the leash in his hand and after the handler is giving the negative marker.....stupid ****ing dog, then he corrects without passion. IF the dog is still a retard, consider how you have used your prong. Did you use it to pump your dog up ?? If so, then you are a retard for EVER thinking that he is gonna see that as a correction, and it gets real ugly, and the blame goes to the dog not wanting the decoy to correct him. LOL Dumbass Sch people. LOL ( raises hand, GUILTY your honor) The real reason for that is an overstimulated dog being stimulated some more. Not good training.

If you have used your prong in that manner, on purpose or not, then you need a different type of correction, or the infamous grab the dog by the face and take and put back in truck, **** you technique. LOL


----------



## Barrie Kirkland

i view the helper corrections as a "sport" thang specifically Sch and its down to the Protection phase being an obedience excercise.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

I have seen many effective police dogs that were **** all with control. Where does your dog fit ??? LOL

A dog should do what it is asked and still bite with power. That is the mantra everyone keeps repeating. So........................;-)


----------



## Edward Egan

Edward Egan said:


> Timely question.
> My dog just developed an issue on the call out of the blind, were at he Heir command he takes a cheap shot on the sleeve.
> We tried handler corrections on prong, result = no real change, dirty next time out.
> We tried cheap shot = off to the truck, no more protection.
> We tried repeat revier until he was clean on call out, then got a bite, some success, but next session was dirty again.
> Last night I had a very experienced helper and explained the problem. He advised that maybe a helper correction was in order. I agreed to give it a try.
> So he was dirty on the call out of the blind, and the helper wacked him in the legs with a whip. My dog changed dramatically and went into a defensive bark and tried to bite the whip the first time. Called out and sent for a reviere again. He was clean but was still in defense. The helper walked out of the blind slowly pushing into my dog, while my dog kept the hold and bark going. He did seem a little tenative at first, but kept the defensive bark going, but was more confident the second time we did this. He hasn't had much pressure put on him in a while other than stick hits on a drive.
> 
> This has always been an issue at the clubs around here. Many helpers think that under certian circumstances the helper needs to correct the dog, while other helpers were dead set against it. I always leaned toward the no helper corrections until last night.
> 
> I'm not certain the issue is fixed, we will see. Any thoughts on this is welcome.


 
Jeff, I think I went wrong by trying to call him out of the blind too often, to fix his half ass (butt by my foot) fuss, or maybe not calling him out for many, many hold & barks, then asking him to call out and fuss for an escape bite. He was fine with the call out for many sessions, then all of a sudden, cheap shot. I don't ever pump him up for bite work, not needed.
So if he does a hold & bark on the judge, is this is a bad thing?


----------



## Howard Gaines III

You have three areas: what the dog understands, what the handler understands, and what the third party MAY understand. Here's the issues as I see it: third parties seldom KNOW what to do and can cause even more problems if given the e-collar to work. The handler may know BUT may not know the best mode. And the poor dog knows and cannot say. At best, the dog is screwed no matter what is done!!!!!!!!!!!!

The fix is too often to lose ground and go back in training to a lesser or lower level. Retraining isn't always wasting time, it's a rebuilding or reinforcing platform; moving in on smaller segments. Remember, regardless of the venue, we are working at the dog's level of understanding!

Corrections from the heper can be good IF the helper UNDERSTANDS the timing issue. Corrections from the handler can be a double edged sword, cuts both ways, and the issue with the dog making the fix isn't always the best either!!!

Know the problem and the solution and then you will know the corrective measure....................


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: I don't ever pump him up for bite work, not needed.
So if he does a hold & bark on the judge, is this is a bad thing? 

I am not sure how that would be possible, even if you misunderstood every word I said. LOL

Howard, the third person corrects the dog if he bites. Not brain surgery.


----------



## Howard Gaines III

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: I don't ever pump him up for bite work, not needed.
> So if he does a hold & bark on the judge, is this is a bad thing?
> 
> I am not sure how that would be possible, even if you misunderstood every word I said. LOL
> 
> Howard, the third person corrects the dog if he bites. Not brain surgery.


Got it Jeff


----------



## Howard Gaines III

Bark & Holds are like plastic diamonds............. 
For the real deal, why would you ask your dog to do it 2' from the bad guy?
Nice and pretty for sport but not real for the "world" as I see it!!!!


----------



## Howard Gaines III

Dan Long said:


> I think your former principal set the bar for those activities!


Dan like bugs on a grill they are moving!!! All are enjoying the same flavor of their efforts... A shame, but they knew, I'll bet, what they were doing. Nothing was learned from the experience as too many names are floating and good folks are pissed!!!!!!!!!!!:-({|=


----------



## Barrie Kirkland

this thread rocks


----------



## Mike Scheiber

Barrie Kirkland said:


> this thread rocks


:lol: I don't thing 1/2 the people on here know shit from shinola I was going to add something long winded but I hate typing and it really wouldn't matter I ll sit back.


----------



## David Frost

I've shined a lot of boots. Cleaned a lot of kennels. I know the difference.

DFrost


----------



## Mike Scheiber

David Frost said:


> I've shined a lot of boots. Cleaned a lot of kennels. I know the difference.
> 
> DFrost


:lol: I said 1/2


----------



## Edward Egan

Mike Scheiber said:


> :lol: I don't thing 1/2 the people on here know shit from shinola I was going to add something long winded but I hate typing and it really wouldn't matter I ll sit back.


Nice attitude, DUDE!

I'm here too learn Master Trainer Mike, what are you here for?


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Mike is here to see if Emillio, the mighty duck man comes back.


----------



## Mike Scheiber

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Mike is here to see if Emillio, the mighty duck man comes back.


Now that would be entertainment the day he got banned was sort of like the day the music died he wasn't here long but will never be forgotten


----------



## Mike Scheiber

Edward Egan said:


> Nice attitude, DUDE!
> 
> I'm here too learn Master Trainer Mike,


:lol: good luck with that


----------



## todd pavlus

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Mike is here to see if Emillio, the mighty duck man comes back.


I think he sent some infiltrators over here from another forum:-k


----------



## James Downey

_Timely question._
_My dog just developed an issue on the call out of the blind, were at he Heir command he takes a cheap shot on the sleeve. _
_We tried handler corrections on prong, result = no real change, dirty next time out._
_We tried cheap shot = off to the truck, no more protection._
_We tried repeat revier until he was clean on call out, then got a bite, some success, but next session was dirty again._
_Last night I had a very experienced helper and explained the problem. He advised that maybe a helper correction was in order. I agreed to give it a try. _
_So he was dirty on the call out of the blind, and the helper wacked him in the legs with a whip. My dog changed dramatically and went into a defensive bark and tried to bite the whip the first time. Called out and sent for a reviere again. He was clean but was still in defense. The helper walked out of the blind slowly pushing into my dog, while my dog kept the hold and bark going. He did seem a little tenative at first, but kept the defensive bark going, but was more confident the second time we did this. He hasn't had much pressure put on him in a while other than stick hits on a drive._

_This has always been an issue at the clubs around here. Many helpers think that under certian circumstances the helper needs to correct the dog, while other helpers were dead set against it. I always leaned toward the no helper corrections until last night._

_I'm not certain the issue is fixed, we will see. Any thoughts on this is welcome._



Now, First...All you homeboys doing real work...I totally agree with you. Sport, and I can really only speak for Sch...is pretty fake, for the majority of dogs rooted in prey, and in no way does this training transfer over to real world work. I have yet to see, hear or even listen to a wise old man tell a legendary tale of a Sch dog whom was never trained for real work, apprehend someone. And someone said Sch protection is basically Obedience training...I agree. Your right on. If the dog has the genetics of a deep, full calm bite...has a nice sounding bark...everything else is getting the dog to behave in Sch. I think people claiming otherwise are full of it....now do/did some of the dogs training Sch have the capability of being a real LE dog...Sure, I am sure thier are. But I think claiming it, or trying to justify it...is Masturbation. Just a stroke to feel good.

Now on to Edgar...This sounds elementry. But it just may work...First, let the dog bite in the blind...then have the decoy push him back next to you while he is biting...out him when he is next to you (he does not have to be perfect) and then give him a bite. Do this for awhile. You may even see the out become automatic. This is good for 2 reasons. It proves your dog is not a shithead and is trying to do the right thing, and it also starts to teach the dog where it gets a bite. Once you have this solid, Stop giving a bite in the blind and call the dog back to you. if the dog nips just tell him no, and continue. if he bites ful on just tell him no, out him and continue. once the dog is next to you have the decoy walk forward and give him a bite. do not make him hold it, just reward him for getting next to you. Once you start to see this become more automatic, your on your way. Now to proof it. Now when the dog comes in with a cheap shot, just tell him no, take him back to the starting point and make him do it again. I do not care if it takes the dog all night. He keeps starting over until he does it right. Keep your cool, and it will look like cluster f#ck at first but it's just because he is unsure what to do. You may see him go down a little in drive, maybe even a lot. Who cares, we can build speed after we have reliability...and I guarntee once he understands...the speed will come. Then you may run into antcipation problems where the dog starts to think....maybe I should go by my handler? and then move back next to you to early...again proves your dog is thinking also, this is good because it gives you the chance to proof the barking. So now becomes the balancing act! How do I keep him barking but yet come when called? I think once he has learned that biting on his on time yields nothing, and comeing back to you on his on call yields him nothing...he now learns how to get what he really wants....the sleeve. A friend of mine told me during training similar to this...do you care if your dog bites the sleeve (as a reward)? I said no...he said, "well he sure the f*ck cares". Just use the sleeve as your collateral. Do what I ask, then you get this!

Again this is just one guy's training theory...I jave not won anything worth bragging about. So if you disagree, or do not like it. I won't be offended.


----------



## Edward Egan

Mike Scheiber said:


> :lol: good luck with that


Thanks, next time you quote me (prefer not), leave it as is.

What are you here for?:roll:


----------



## Edward Egan

James Downey said:


> _Timely question._
> _My dog just developed an issue on the call out of the blind, were at he Heir command he takes a cheap shot on the sleeve. _
> _We tried handler corrections on prong, result = no real change, dirty next time out._
> _We tried cheap shot = off to the truck, no more protection._
> _We tried repeat revier until he was clean on call out, then got a bite, some success, but next session was dirty again._
> _Last night I had a very experienced helper and explained the problem. He advised that maybe a helper correction was in order. I agreed to give it a try. _
> _So he was dirty on the call out of the blind, and the helper wacked him in the legs with a whip. My dog changed dramatically and went into a defensive bark and tried to bite the whip the first time. Called out and sent for a reviere again. He was clean but was still in defense. The helper walked out of the blind slowly pushing into my dog, while my dog kept the hold and bark going. He did seem a little tenative at first, but kept the defensive bark going, but was more confident the second time we did this. He hasn't had much pressure put on him in a while other than stick hits on a drive._
> 
> _This has always been an issue at the clubs around here. Many helpers think that under certian circumstances the helper needs to correct the dog, while other helpers were dead set against it. I always leaned toward the no helper corrections until last night._
> 
> _I'm not certain the issue is fixed, we will see. Any thoughts on this is welcome._
> 
> 
> 
> Now, First...All you homeboys doing real work...I totally agree with you. Sport, and I can really only speak for Sch...is pretty fake, for the majority of dogs rooted in prey, and in no way does this training transfer over to real world work. I have yet to see, hear or even listen to a wise old man tell a legendary tale of a Sch dog whom was never trained for real work, apprehend someone. And someone said Sch protection is basically Obedience training...I agree. Your right on. If the dog has the genetics of a deep, full calm bite...has a nice sounding bark...everything else is getting the dog to behave in Sch. I think people claiming otherwise are full of it....now do/did some of the dogs training Sch have the capability of being a real LE dog...Sure, I am sure thier are. But I think claiming it, or trying to justify it...is Masturbation. Just a stroke to feel good.
> 
> Now on to Edgar...This sounds elementry. But it just may work...First, let the dog bite in the blind...then have the decoy push him back next to you while he is biting...out him when he is next to you (he does not have to be perfect) and then give him a bite. Do this for awhile. You may even see the out become automatic. This is good for 2 reasons. It proves your dog is not a shithead and is trying to do the right thing, and it also starts to teach the dog where it gets a bite. Once you have this solid, Stop giving a bite in the blind and call the dog back to you. if the dog nips just tell him no, and continue. if he bites ful on just tell him no, out him and continue. once the dog is next to you have the decoy walk forward and give him a bite. do not make him hold it, just reward him for getting next to you. Once you start to see this become more automatic, your on your way. Now to proof it. Now when the dog comes in with a cheap shot, just tell him no, take him back to the starting point and make him do it again. I do not care if it takes the dog all night. He keeps starting over until he does it right. Keep your cool, and it will look like cluster f#ck at first but it's just because he is unsure what to do. You may see him go down a little in drive, maybe even a lot. Who cares, we can build speed after we have reliability...and I guarntee once he understands...the speed will come. Then you may run into antcipation problems where the dog starts to think....maybe I should go by my handler? and then move back next to you to early...again proves your dog is thinking also, this is good because it gives you the chance to proof the barking. So now becomes the balancing act! How do I keep him barking but yet come when called? I think once he has learned that biting on his on time yields nothing, and comeing back to you on his on call yields him nothing...he now learns how to get what he really wants....the sleeve. A friend of mine told me during training similar to this...do you care if your dog bites the sleeve (as a reward)? I said no...he said, "well he sure the f*ck cares". Just use the sleeve as your collateral. Do what I ask, then you get this!
> 
> Again this is just one guy's training theory...I jave not won anything worth bragging about. So if you disagree, or do not like it. I won't be offended.


Thanks James, I'll give it some consideration.
Tonight he was a little dirty, but nothing like he was. I believe he is trying, while giving verbal praise for the reviere, he came to heel. :-k I sent him back in and called him out, clean. So here's too hoping it will resolve soon.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Scheiber 
good luck with that
Thanks, next time you quote me (prefer not), leave it as is.

What are you here for?
__________________
"Freedom is an expensive thing"

Yes freedom is an expensive thing. He is here for EMILLLLLLLIIIIIIIOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

How is that difficult to understand, and who cares. Just look at it like I do, the ones that respond with thought out answers, and questions, are the ones that you will learn each others terminology differences, and the ones that you can learn new shit from.

The ones that freak the **** out, and start asking you who you are and who you train with and google you, and send you threatening PM's in a drunken stupor are the ones that you just laugh at and take apart bit by bit by bit. I really love the ones that ask questions, and then you find out they are training with someone. WTF ?? Ask them dick. 

I like training dogs, I like seeing people progress at a rate that is going to get them to a title. I really hate the sensitivity level of some people, as what the ****, this shit is free. I paid thousands and thousands of dollars over the years to learn shit.

Just don't take it seriously. Just repeat after me......****em if they can't take a joke. =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>


----------



## Howard Gaines III

Like David said...cleaned my share of kennels and stomp the life of of sheep shit piles...and it's all good! This is a pet cat forum isn't it? Now were's my p---y?:mrgreen:


----------



## Mike Di Rago

James Downey,
I like your last post. Putting each thing in it's proper context.
Many times we fail to see it from the dogs point of view. In sports the dog has a partner who will repeat a routine(with certain variations) and this partner (the helper) is not really perceived as a threat. And this is all good because first, it is a good way to start a dog and second, the goal of a sport dog is different. Therefor there is nothing wrong with the decoy correcting the sport dog because the dog needs to accept it, it is part of the game.
Mike


----------



## Mike Scheiber

Edward Egan said:


> What are you here for?:roll:


Not dog training ](*,)Though I have picked up a couple of bad ideas on here a couple of times.


----------



## Mike Scheiber

Edward Egan said:


> Nice attitude, DUDE!
> 
> I'm here too learn Master Trainer Mike, what are you here for?


All kidding aside a Internet dog board isn't the even close being a place to learn bite sport and the problem the OP was referencing is bite sort specific. 
I would like to see a show of hands of the people who have given advice on this thread that have put multiple Schutzhund titles on different dogs.
OK now how about helpers that have helped train a "small number" 1/2 dozen dogs to Schutzhund III
Don't ya sort of wonder why you NEVER see any big name or high level trainers advising or posting on dog boards.
In case you haven't noticed you seldom if ever see the cops asking questions.
I'm not promoting Ivan or his business but his pay per view site is a nice resource for getting pointers or lessons for Schutzhund training on the Internet I have used it but I also train similar and use many of his methods and theory defanity worth checking out.
I'm not saying you cant learn or get good advice here but dog training is a feeling understanding and timing three things you ain't going to get here. 
OK since you mentioned it, may I ask :-k WTF is a "Master Trainer" where is the school and how many years to get a degree. Is being a "Master Trainer" make me a cool guy


----------



## Edward Egan

Mike the last thing I want to do is argue with someone on this board. And yes I may have been in the wrong mood/frustrated when I read/replied to your post. Normally I would have ignored it.

That being said, I have limited experienced trainers/helper to assist me, it happens on occation, but not often enough. What I do have is a good friend and fellow trainer, however he is not much more experienced that I. I also have a group of people that get together once a week to train, we may not know what we are doing, but we try and have fun. When I run into problems, I seek advise and/or read about different approaches to assist me in working through it.

I just recently closed my business and I'm not in a position to travel/pay for seminars at this point. Yep, fundsalows here.

That is my position, so I have to make do with what I have or I could just throw in the towel and wait for better times (not).

Thanks, Eddie


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Keep training man, don't let us bug you. You are out there by yourselves doing it the way that is gonna teach you the most. 

97% of the people here would not have the balls to go and train without having an experienced TD to work with. You are going MANSTYLE. Good stuff.


----------



## Mike Scheiber

Edward Egan said:


> Mike the last thing I want to do is argue with someone on this board. And yes I may have been in the wrong mood/frustrated when I read/replied to your post. Normally I would have ignored it.
> 
> That being said, I have limited experienced trainers/helper to assist me, it happens on occation, but not often enough. What I do have is a good friend and fellow trainer, however he is not much more experienced that I. I also have a group of people that get together once a week to train, we may not know what we are doing, but we try and have fun. When I run into problems, I seek advise and/or read about different approaches to assist me in working through it.
> 
> I just recently closed my business and I'm not in a position to travel/pay for seminars at this point. Yep, fundsalows here.
> 
> That is my position, so I have to make do with what I have or I could just throw in the towel and wait for better times (not).
> 
> Thanks, Eddie


 Well for F&%k sakes now I feel like a dumb ass 
????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????"kidding"


----------



## Tracey Hughes

I have no problems with decoy corrections if done well.
When I have a dog working down the field away from me and I need to out my dog, the decoy will grab the short line under the dog's neck and when I say out, he pops the leash. My decoy's start in dogs was in Ring sport so he sometimes comes up with some styles that I haven't seen many SchH trainers do...like rather the feeding the sleeve to the dog to fix a targeting issue as I have had many of my decoys in the past do he moves it right out of the way. After a couple of misses the dog comes back targeting center mass we have never had to use any other method to fix a dog that wants to target the elbow or tip this way. We also use the suit quite a bit with the SchH dogs.

At a former club the helper was an older German and his way of cleaning a dog up in the blind was a few reed stick hits over the head. My GSD took a few of those as the more he would be hit the more he would bite. Just made sense to me that the outcome would be that...the day my dog finally bit the guy under the apron was the last time he had to take a whack over the head, and I have heard since then such training has been tamed down.


----------



## Jason Sidener

Decoy corrections make no sense to me when you have a tool like an e-collar to use.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

So the decoy shouldn't have the remote ???


----------



## tracey schneider

Tracey Hughes said:


> I have heard since then such training has been tamed down.


No I think its quite common still, even a little more instense as Ive seen it to the face. 
Maybe Im just hanging out in the wrong places lol.

t


----------



## tracey schneider

arh.......stupid library computer!!!!!

lets try again....

we are training dogs in defense, teaching him to fight hte helper.......then we tell him he must also respect the helper and listen to his commands............ still not sure how this is clear training.

I know in my case, I definitely need to get more respect from my dog.........jeff you brought up an interesting point.......if I am using the prong all the time, will a correction on it really mean anything? 

Really dont want to do the e-collar...........until I get him to respect my physical corrections FIRST.....:-k 

t


----------



## Mike Scheiber

tracey delin said:


> arh.......stupid library computer!!!!!
> 
> lets try again....
> 
> we are training dogs in defense, teaching him to fight hte helper.......then we tell him he must also respect the helper and listen to his commands............ still not sure how this is clear training.
> 
> I know in my case, I definitely need to get more respect from my dog.........jeff you brought up an interesting point.......if I am using the prong all the time, will a correction on it really mean anything?
> 
> Really dont want to do the e-collar...........until I get him to respect my physical corrections FIRST.....:-k
> 
> t


Often times physical corrections in front of the helper will create allot if conflict. With gaining" respect" as you put it you can open a hole can of worms. Whats wrong with teaching the exercise and then use the collar when the dog knows what it is supposed to do and chooses not to why must the dog understand know every thing unpleasant come from you sometimes bad things can happen when you do stupid things.
You don't see dogs pissing on the same spot of a electric fence more than once.
If you can clear up your training relationship things will begin happening much faster with much less corrections.
My dog is no stranger to corrections, I have use them far less often and if my dog gives me repeated reasons to physically or stim correct chances are he doesn't understand what he supposed to do and I take a step or two back and teach.
It sounds like your term "respect" sounds more like compliance training. If my dog challenges me then I will have to give him reason to respect.


----------



## Jason Sidener

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> So the decoy shouldn't have the remote ???



I have no problem with the decoy having the remote if we are working in a blind or something to where I can not see when and if I need to correct. My dog still thinks it was me who tagged him and that is the way I want it.

A third party handling the remote is also a good option. Sometimes this is an even better option then the handler having the remote. 

We often train even OB with someone else handling the remote


----------



## Tracey Hughes

tracey delin said:


> No I think its quite common still, even a little more instense as Ive seen it to the face.
> Maybe Im just hanging out in the wrong places lol.
> 
> t



LOL..I only meant at that particular club)) sorry..


----------



## Gillian Schuler

I'm still wondering about helper corrections. The ones I saw at our training ensured that the dog didn't try to bite the sleeve when he tore into the hide after the correction (hands-on by helper). They came round to the hide afterwards in the same manner as before but remain seated. Their work with the helper was as strong as before the correction.

I corrected my dog but it hasn't made him wary of me in Schutzdienst. He had only bitten with our helper and when I sent him, he couldn't have known who was in the hide but in split seconds he'd checked out the strength of the new helper who is btw is very good too but not as strong a character as our normal helper.

I know of clubs that always have a third person from the start holding the long line to prevent the dog from becoming dirty in the hide. The handler performs, coolly, knowing that the corrections will be made timely.

Javir Talka Marda, who caused a lot of boos at last year's WUSV because they weren't satisfied with the judge's evaluation was maybe "wound up"?? / pushed?? a little over the edge to get even better results. Bob Scott saw the protection and said the dog was dirty. The protection judge is a member of our club and I asked him what really happened and he said the dog bit the sleeve a few times in the hide.

I know here that the remote would be good but imo there isn't anything quicker than a split second judgement from the helper to correct. He sees the dog, can read it and correct accordingly. Some even strong dogs are corrected by a look. They "know" they'll have the chance to rock the helper afterwards:evil: 

It's like when when driving, I look to the right and say ok but it has to be digested by the driver and is never as fast as when he looks himself.

@Mike Scheiber

If the third person has the remote, does he press the button as he sees fit or does the helper give him the "eye" ok?

I'd be interested to learn how this is executed. Thanks.


----------



## Tracey Hughes

I have had the same experience as yours Gillian, if the dog is good, there will be no problems with the helper giving a good correction. But I certainly wouldn't have a helper give any commands to my dogs either, the whole point is the correction should be done in a subtle way so the dog thinks mom has power over him where ever he may go

I don't like the idea of a third person zapping my dog, I really don't trust someone's timing to be as good as my own. 
If I can't train using a collar and lead and I do need to pull out my handy dandy Tri I will I rarely need it when the foundation has been laid well in the work. 

I want to see how my dogs handle a more personal approach from me, some dogs are fine, others become aggressive, others get soft and when I am prepping for a trial I will bring out the hand tronics, where it is me and the dog and nothing but a fur saver.


----------



## Mike Scheiber

Gillian Schuler said:


> @Mike Scheiber
> 
> If the third person has the remote, does he press the button as he sees fit or does the helper give him the "eye" ok?
> 
> I'd be interested to learn how this is executed. Thanks.


This works well when doing finish/polished work in the blind really no different than a third person using a long line to check the dog except you don't have a line to fumble with. When running all 6 there is no way the third helper can make a long line correction if need be. Often the helper can and dose use the remote but it can be difficult to operate the when he is showing trial posture. 
I do use the long line to check the dog but like to move it away from the blind quickly I believe it causes conflict and equipment fixation. 
We have a couple of very gifted collar trainers in our club and I would never give my remote to any one other than them we are all on the same page with a good plan.
I should add we do allot of good training before hand the dog has a good understanding of the game before we use corrections. So for the most part they are seldom needed mostly happens when the drive state is bouncing near insanity.
I'm not sure we are ever going to catch or be ready for the lemon juice correction he has been a good boy for now and that was another thread.


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Thanks Mike.

I meant only corrections in the hide. Running the blinds is "our business" the helper told us. And he would "correct" us verbally if the dog got out of control.

One of the chaps (a huge biker type who had also decoyed) was training his 3 year old bitch who'd been allowed to do what she wanted before joining us and he'd send her to the first blind and off she took direction helper got downed and called back. This went on for ages until the helper came out of the hide and the verbal barrage took place. Man and dog left early that night but at the next training there was improvement.

A helper like this keeps you on your toes and so in turn you keep your dog on his toes. 

The e-collar would be often better placed on the handler and I'm no ex:mrgreen: ception


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: I know in my case, I definitely need to get more respect from my dog.........jeff you brought up an interesting point.......if I am using the prong all the time, will a correction on it really mean anything? 

I find that if you are using the prong a lot, then you went too fast in the first place and skipped steps. I am not saying that you did that. My reference to overuse of the prong as in using it to stimulate the dog during aggitation.

I also find that using it often enough in control during the bitework can cause it to become a stimulous, and not the desired correction tool.

The bulldogs I am not so sure about a pinch anyway. I have seen heard some real interesting responses to that type of correction. It all depends on the dog, but something to look out for. Sometimes I just put the dog away, and get the other one out. Sometimes I use a slip chain, sometimes the e-collar. It is a hard thing for me to verbalize, as a lot of what I do is from reading the dog, and the rest of the time, it is because I cannot figure out what I did with _______ collar.#-o


----------



## tracey schneider

UPDATE..............

Well I have been eyeing a club 5 mins from my house for a while. I have watched the helper closely and even seen him in a local trial (he is now national cert) and I liked the way he worked. 

So Sat I went. I watched him very closely again and I really liked the way he worked the dogs. A good balance of prey and defense and was able to work the strong dogs just as well as the younger or weaker dogs. That is hard to find in my opinion.

So he worked our dogs, said some magic words that i wanted to hear and I think I will be going back.......beats the 45 min. drive for sure :wink: 

No one seems to feel what happened the previous week was a "valid" correction or cleaning as there was nothing to be gained from it only lost. I have no issues with cleaning a dog or even correcting but it has to be done right and I am going to do my best to minimize both from here on out as it is a battle in my own head ](*,) 

As far as the prong, yes it WAS used for aggitation......we are past that point, he is self loading and the work is mostly about calming. I asked this helper what he thought of my prong use and he saw no issues with me using the prong for everything. With some quick snaps and verbal correction, my dog understood, he is pretty smart that way ;-) . 

In the past you are correct, our trainer had us to moving too fast. I was yankin and crankin pronging him heeling around the field with the decoy to "gain respect" w/o ever going to baby steps of a simple look and send amongst other things, keep in mind I only had him a few months at that time. I made many mistakes on my last dog and I am hoping not to do the same witht his one........hopefully it is not too late........I dont think that it is :???: 

Wish us luck 

t


----------



## Shane Carter

sounds like a plan T. 
KISS is always the best way for dogs in my opinion. Especially our breed.

Teach it 200 times and then proof it once.

Not telling you anything you don't know already though. 

Shane


----------



## tracey schneider

I may already know it but sometimes I totally forget what I am doing#-o ...........Im so used to a finished dog and sometimes I forgot all the steps we took to get there. I cant tell you how many times I stood up field after a long bite wating to yell "out" only to have to run up and get my dog for the slip :-\" 

t


----------

