# Decoying the Decoy



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

We are in the process of helping a few folks become club level decoys. I remember my first time on the field with a state police working dog, a Giant Schnauzer. It was something that I couldn't prepare for and never would think it has been this long decoying...

So, how do you prepare the first-timer for the bite suit or sleeve? What was your first experience like doing a K-9 sport or police K-9 handling decoy work? One of our members was so "rushed" from the chance to catch in the suit that it was too funny to watch...kid in a candy store! =D> :mrgreen:


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

I'm not really a helper but we've had a few session where I'm in the suit and the other guys have fun with decoy tipping (yeah like cow tipping) I was learning to catch dogs by having guys slam me with couch cushions and making sure I open my hips the appropriate way without jamming the dog or in my case the pillow.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

If I was to be picky, which I cannot be, I would want someone who played sports. People that have been coached all their lives do not get all butt hurt from comments on their work.

I like to start with jambierres and critique their movement/reaction to the dog and interaction with the handler as far as line work.

There is something about teaching targeting where just the one leg is protected that shows me what that person is about. Probably the whole exposed crotch panic thing. LOL

Once they can do drag ins fairly easily, then the suit is no problem, as they are more comfortable. I like to go back to short sends and then work back to catching the dog at a distance.

Back in the day, when I had many dogs and many different types of dogs as far as how they reacted to aggitation, I would let them work all of them to see how to deal with the different personalities.

I also like to explain about how the bite rewards the mood of the dog, and that if you have mad a dog a bit nuts/hectic, that you need to back off a bit to relieve the pressure, and try and get them to the place mentally that they need to be.

I had dogs that could show them what that looked like as well, usually retreads from some idiot that thought that hectic behavior was power. Also usually a sch person LOL

That is my start.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> If I was to be picky, ...show them what that looked like as well, usually retreads from some idiot that thought that hectic behavior was power. Also usually a sch person LOL
> 
> That is my start.


Jeff, so you are doing more for ring sports? When do you work the escape for the leg, at the same time or is it targeting only here?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

With a new decoy, there are no escapes, they are too stupid. I wait until they are doing the basic stuff correctly before they get all buck wild.

I always keep in mind that they are basically ruining my previous work, taking training time off of my dog, and can hurt my dog. They have to prove a lot to me before I will just let them work. I have had this experience again recently with a decoy that hit my dog in the face with a bag of cans just because he had no idea how to target a dog to the legs properly. Good thing he is certified. It is frustrating because I like the guy.

so, this is why when I see some tard with a suit charging money, and has the skill level of a turtle on his back, it drives me nuts. Good to be cautious of those people. There are very few decoys anymore, and the temptation to pay one of these people is great. I would rather shit glass shards.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

I'm like Jeff, short sends first and only then with a dog that has experience. Green decoy plus green dog, not good. This could mess them both up.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Ditto on Jeff anf Jerry!
I think one of the easiest ways to explain it to most guys is telling them it's like catching a fast ball. If you don't relax and "give" with the catch it will hurt. With dog work you put the saftey of the dog first and foremost!
A new helper would also do well to learn how to fall correctly when the dog comes in bad but that's more a learning by doing thing along with good instincts and reflexes. 
I also like the helper to catch (sleeve work) dead center and let the momentum of the dog carry you to the side. To many want to "show the sleeve" and that creates bad habits. 
All the athletic ability doesn't make up for being able to read the dog. That takes time and expierience. That's one of the reasons the expierienced dog is a necessity for teaching the new helper. You know how the dog is going to hit and can prepare for it. 
At 63, my catches are confined to work in the blinds. Wornout knees and wornout backs aren't condusive to good catches.  :-D :wink:


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## Chad Byerly (Jun 24, 2008)

At a decoy camp in spring, someone told me I just need to get reps catching as many experienced dogs as possible from short sends (10 feet). That was a tip for suit work. I don't get to work with many suit dogs... I hate the thought of injuring a dog trying something I know is more advanced than the stuff I'm still learning/perfecting. It would be fun to end up playing Mondioring, but I still haven't made it to a seminar or trial...

So if Jeff can line up the dogs, I'll take criticism and be happy to learn.:-D 

I want to learn shutzhund/sleeve techniques too, since that's more of the training going on around me.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

*


Jeff Oehlsen said:



With a new decoy, there are no escapes, they are too stupid. I wait until they are doing the basic stuff correctly before they get all buck wild.

Click to expand...




Jeff Oehlsen said:



I always keep in mind that they are basically ruining my previous work, taking training time off of my dog, and can hurt my dog. They have to prove a lot to me before I will just let them work. ....

Click to expand...

*

Jeff I see what you and the others are saying and it's true. I also think that the best teacher is a solid, experienced dog. One bad move by a green decoy can set you back weeks or a forever in training. I know someone said to me that decoying is like being a human punching bag. You set the person up and let the dog knocks the hell out of them. For decoys without experience it is true to a point.

In part this is true for any venue, Ring/Schutzhund/ PPD/PSD; green decoys get beat up because they can't move or won't move. I have seen "seasoned" decoys stand there like a rock. The dog comes in from a 20 yard send and they DON'T MOVE! The dog gets a neck jam, broken teeth, or looks at the guy as if to say,"Dude do your job!" Fear of being eaten is an issue. 

*How do you guys translate to the decoy student the ideas of prey, defense, and fight drive?* Here's a bucket, work with it! Les Flores, a Schutzhund DVG decoy trainer told me that many dogs get ruined from the jam and swinging the dog. In FR is it the same or from falls on the dog?:-k


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I do not do the stand there and take it method. I am very good at reading people, especially when I keep telling them to move their feet and they stand like a deer in head lights.

Most guys with enough reps with drag ins and such start to relax and you just make the drag ins faster and faster. If they are "going fetal" then they do not get past the drag ins.

Someone just posted a pic of a green decoy working a puppy. I just want to start laughing, the club is using her pup to advance a green decoy. I see this shit way too often, and they are in no way the only place I see doing this.

Dogsports in the US are way short of qualified decoys, with unfortunate results.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

well here's kind of a twist on things for you guys. my sister, who trains/breeds hunting Labs went to a kennel last weekend to take a gander at it (i'm considering a pup from there and she's just 30 mi away vs my 4 hours), hang out at training, etc. she knows nothing about Sch, the kennel is also the local Sch club, so it was all new to her.

she was convinced to take a bite fr an experienced Sch dog out of the B&H (cost me 50 cents!!!, and i have video!!), but after, and this is my question also, she wasn't sure if she should be making eye contact with the dog as it was in the B&H. 

so does a helper make eye contact?? i can try to post the vid if you all want, but the eye contact question from her i thought was a damn good question. especially for someone who's never ever put on a sleeve before. (i love my baby sister).


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I have to ditto the ditto on Jeff and Jerry and Bob. New decoy, experienced dog. First hits are on leash. I'm also trying to teach the decoy to not only take the hit safely, but make it safe for the dog. In addition, and I think a very important part, teach the decoy to give and take. Give when necessary, take when necessary. Learning to read the dog is, in my opinion, the most important aspect. An experienced dog will, more than likely, hit the equipment. I want the new decoy to see what the dogs body language and "feel" what the dog needs.

DFrost


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## Chad Byerly (Jun 24, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Most guys with enough reps with drag ins and such start to relax and you just make the drag ins faster and faster. If they are "going fetal" then they do not get past the drag ins.


So Jeff, are you talking about the decoy moving backward (facing the dog and handler) keeping a leg moving and available, and the dog is following with the handler keeping tension on the harness? 
Or is the technique you're describing without a dog at all? 
At the (PSA) camp I went to, before any dogs came out we were dragged around with a leash slipped tight on the suit upper arm, and then on the thigh, both from standing and from down the the ground. The point was to stay up, or to get up, while the "helper" was pulling/dragging you around. Can anyone suggest exercises that would help decoys to learn certain movements and skills, before even bringing a dog into the situation?
I'd appreciate an explanation of "drag ins", because I'm having trouble understanding the "going fetal".
Thanks.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Chad Byerly said:


> The point was to stay up, or to get up, while the "helper" was pulling/dragging you around. Can anyone suggest exercises that would help decoys to learn certain movements and skills, before even bringing a dog into the situation?
> I'd appreciate an explanation of "drag ins", because I'm having trouble understanding the "going fetal".
> Thanks.


Dragons were a myth, no fire, no knight eating...just someone blowing smoke! :mrgreen: 

Did you even wrestle in high school? Think about NOT leaning into the dog. Keep your back straight.
Shorter steps that are not crossed steps are safe, no chance of tripping or stepping on the dog. On short runs, keep the feet moving. Oh, don't feed the sleeve to the dog. Feeding the sleeve changes the object from prey to defense for a split second.

Yesterday, I had a police officer who called me about decoying and trying to find someone who wouldn't screw up his dogs. The decoys he is using are all acting afraid and/or being a statue... Acting is an important element. How you move, what you say, and what you do can build up or ruin a dog.

Where is Kim G's decoying pics?! :-\"


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Tell it Howard, you are so right.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Drag ins can be done in a variety of ways, but the principle is the same, the dog NEVER goes full speed. He is "dragged" into the decoy at a slow speed on a harness. 

"going fetal" is were the decoy just covers up, and the dog hits a still target, and gets jammed.

I am not a fan of PSA or the decoying that I have seen. I do not need to put a leash on a decoy, or I guess if I went with that option, then I would not use that decoy. For me it is a matter of getting the decoy to move in HIS natural fashion, and to work the dog according to what the dog is doing. I see way to many that just thrash around and just move, with no thought of what the dog is doing.

That is not to say that there are not decoys that do the right thing, I just see a lot of BS at times. LOL


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## Chad Byerly (Jun 24, 2008)

Now "going fetal" makes sense, and that's what I thought you meant by "drag ins". Thanks for explaining.


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

It basically boils down to having athletic abilities. Some people can play baseball, football, and soccer. Some people can not. The same with decoying, some people have it and some people don't. It depends on first what you have naturally and the rest is all about developing your own technique and learning the tricks of the trade. Like what Jeff said, you can not be stiff, you have to move gracefully. If you have the right foudation then the rest comes easy. Oh and abort the fetal position. LOL


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I have been decoying for OB for bites and not heard the command and was so stinking close I went fetal.

New Policy adopted immediately: Say the attack command loud enough for the deaf guy to hear. : )


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## Chad Byerly (Jun 24, 2008)

To be fair to PSA and the decoys who ran the certification camp, I think the point of the leash thing was to impress GETTING UP if you fall down. Also, maybe it was only done on the arm...
http://www.smugmug.com/gallery/4879574_5vjTt#290958464_ss9wC
There's things I like about PSA, but I went to get some suit experience which would maybe help me catching Police K9s. That's the same reason I went to WV the other day for KNPV decoy tips. 

For all disciplines, what seems to work is being loose, on balls of feet, don't hold breath... like the advise for anything someone is worried about but will go better if they relax and keep their head. I just want to have the right stuff in my head.   8-[ ](*,)


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

I thought Jeff said going "*fecal*" ...I was going to agree with that statement that some decoys work like #%*t :mrgreen: Sorry Jeff need to read deeper into the post!


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

I uderstand what you mean Jeff. I've surprised Matt before because I more or less whisper either my alert or bite command. I have had to make it a point to say it loud enough for the decoy to hear so he can be ready.


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

I agre that you need to be athletic to be catching dogs and decoying. I started with doing B&H's with bites then moved into doing the puppy line. I'm not anywhere near a "Good" decoy because I need more practice. I hope that one day I'll be a good decoy because I love the adrenaline rush that you get from it. 

I have noticed that depending on the sleeve, my arm isn't long enough to grab the handle inside unless I stick my arm in it and put the end of the sleeve on the ground and really reach for it. There are some sleeves that work better than others for me....BUT for the most part I have the same problem with all of them. I'm wondering if it's the difference between men and women that makes it hard for me to reach the sleeve handle as men have no problem using my sleeve. 

Also.....how many women decoys have you guys seen and what are your thoughts about them??? 

Just curious!


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Courtney Guthrie said:


> I agre that you need to be athletic to be catching dogs and decoying. I started with doing B&H's with bites then moved into doing the puppy line. I'm not anywhere near a "Good" decoy because I need more practice. I hope that one day I'll be a good decoy because I love the adrenaline rush that you get ...!


FIRST, stop with the sexist issues. Men and women can decoy and the only real difference is the physical ability of men, this goes for everything.... Other than that, it is all about playing to the dog's strengths and building on weakness. Most decoys are men, that's a given. As far as who or how; it is an individual thing, with the decoy doing the job and nothing more. Get on with the real post! 8-[


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## Chad Byerly (Jun 24, 2008)

To those with knowledge about decoying and helperwork (primarily sportsfolk):

Would you recommend seminars/camps for instruction in decoy techniques?
And I mean in absence of a long-term apprenticeship, which I would prefer.
(Or, can that bitework sensei please move to central Ohio?)  

[Also, I'm primarily concerned with the technical methods for safely and properly working dogs in a given discipline. I want to first learn a good foundation in the physical moves required in a trial for a trial-ready dog, and then later also learn the styles and techniques different decoys and trainers use for teaching or problem solving.]

Who would you recommend to learn under, or where should one go for Ringsport (either MR or FR)?
And who/what would you recommend for SchH?*

:-s 

*I'm in a SchH club, but it's mostly up-and-coming dogs and so while I'm learning there, I'm not learning anything hands-on...


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

The 2 Best decoys I have ever seen in person were Bert Aerts and Peter Vertachant. They both are in Belgium, There is another Guy named Gert his last name eludes me at the moment. I understand that the distance maybe a problem. But bert and peter did the FCI worlds this year and you can watch thier you tube videos. Bert had a back problem and is getting a little older now. but there should be some older vids of him. Peter did the back half and bert the front. Pay attention to thier footwork on the long bite. I have yet to see anyone else control a dog on the long bite better than these guys. They do Seminars in the states from time to time.

As for the States...with out a doubt the best decoy I have seen here is Tom Ritchie in Escondido, Ca. 

I heard a rumor that Edgar Sherkl maybe doing a seminar...he would be a great guy to work with. Keep an out for that. Do not know if he is still catching dogs, but he was/is good decoy. 

I watched a video on John Soares website of his dog Vion. I am not sure who the decoy doing the work was...but he looked really good.

For Females Uschi Fuchs is a good decoy and does Seminars all over the states. 


BTW Chad there is a trial this next weekend in Seville, OH there is a trial. Maybe a good chance to network with some folks. I am going there to meet my dogs sister. 
Up and coming Mark Socchio is a good decoy....And I am sure he is a lot better than last time I seen him. 

There is a guy at theres a guy named Shawn up here in MI at Southeast MI Schutzhund Club (UScA club) that just did a trial I was in that I was impressed with.

Rondell Marshall
Jim Laubmeier
Lotus Perkins

Those are some names of some decent decoys. I do not know about seminars but maybe something to keep in the mental roldex.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Those are "helpers" I was talking about "decoys" so suitwork, not sleevework.

Should have clarified.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Chad Byerly said:


> To those with knowledge about decoying and helperwork (primarily sportsfolk):
> 
> Would you recommend seminars/camps for instruction in decoy techniques?
> ...


Anyone can go to a clinic, camp, or be an understudy, you can even watch DVDs. Only time and a willingness to correct mistakes can make you better at anything. You could spend $200.00/hour with the best instructors but if you have no skills it's pointless.

Quality time Grasshopper, quality time! 8-[


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Howard I value your posts normally, but "if you have no skills, it's pointless" is not clear. If he has no "skills" he has to go to learn them. If it turns out he has no "feeling for the work" its sh1t - he can't acquire "skills". 

What do you mean?

Yours faithfully:razz: :razz: :razz:


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Gillian if you have a 12 ounce bottle, can you put 20 ounces of liquid in it? NO! If you have no skills, how can all the training in the world make you into a decoy? It can't. Wasted time is what I call it.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

We seem to be on the same page


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

And that makes me sooooooo happy! \\/


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## Dan Long (Jan 10, 2008)

My novice opinion:

There is a lot of skill involved in actually working a dog- reading drives, pushing the dog without breaking him, building him up. I think that is more important than athleticism, though being able to move around is obviously important, more so in some training disciplines, less in others. It takes a long time and working a lot of different dogs to get to that kind of skill level. Spend thousands of hours on the field, and work hundreds of dogs, then you are probably a pretty good decoy even if you can't hurdle a 4' fence. 

Anyone an put on a bite suit and football helmet, run down field, and have a dog sent 30 yards on him to whip his butt. I don't think that does the "decoy" or the dog any good, and as an initiation to being a decoy, is pretty stupid. Anyone can stand there and hold a sleeve and take a bite. There isn't much skill involved in that. Understanding how and why you do certain actions to get a certain response out of a dog is where the skill and expertise comes in. So you have 2 different types of people catching dogs. True decoys, who know what they are doing, and punching bags. I don't think you need to be a punching bag before you start to develop good decoy skills. 

As far as certifications go, I work in the IT industry. A lot of people I work with have comp science degrees, certifications in all kinds of operating systems and software, yet can't troubleshoot their way out of a wet paper bag, because they don't have the real world experience. A degree and certifications and 2 years experience doesn't come close to 15 years on the front line, troubleshooting and repairing critical systems under a lot of pressure and short time frames. I think the same goes for passing a decoy test on paper. If you never take that certification and apply it to the real world, you won't ever be good.


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## Chad Byerly (Jun 24, 2008)

James Downey said:


> ...
> Those are some names of some decent decoys. I do not know about seminars but maybe something to keep in the mental roldex.


Thanks, that was helpful.


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## David Scholes (Jul 12, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Gillian if you have a 12 ounce bottle, can you put 20 ounces of liquid in it? NO! If you have no skills, how can all the training in the world make you into a decoy? It can't. Wasted time is what I call it.


Skills can be acquired through training and practice. I assume you mean not everyone has ability or aptitude to develop the skill. I agree not everyone has what it takes.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Compair teaching a decoy to a dog's drive. You can develope what's naturally there but you can't improve on something that isn't.
Also consider that a great training decoy doesn't necessarily have to be a great trial decoy and vs vs.


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## David Scholes (Jul 12, 2008)

Dan Long said:


> ...
> As far as certifications go, I work in the IT industry. A lot of people I work with have comp science degrees, certifications in all kinds of operating systems and software, yet can't troubleshoot their way out of a wet paper bag, because they don't have the real world experience. A degree and certifications and 2 years experience doesn't come close to 15 years on the front line, troubleshooting and repairing critical systems under a lot of pressure and short time frames. I think the same goes for passing a decoy test on paper. If you never take that certification and apply it to the real world, you won't ever be good.


Some even with 20 years on the front line get by but flounder. Experience counts, but someone with strong ability/aptitude can in say 5 years go way beyond what many with 20 years experience can do. Combine ability with drive and self motivation to learn... experience alone get's trampled. But then, all the drive and self motivation are useless if there is no innate ability.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Unfortunately, reading a dog is a talent, and some just do not have it. I am talking about all trainers here, not just decoys.

If you are not athletic, then your response time to a dog is slower, and you are now not responding to the correct moment you were trying to reward.

I absolutely do not agree with a suit and helmet approach. Might be funny to video tape, but it does nothing to promote good skills.


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

What helmet?? LOL


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I have seen people put lacrosse helmets on new guys.

Pussys. LOL Once the helmet was on though, it did attract the dogs attention, as there was a dog that grabbed the wires on the helmet. This dog was not dirty or crazy, and never went for anyones face before or after.


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

Well, ya know what I say........If you're scared then say you're scared. :twisted:


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

jay lyda said:


> Well, ya know what I say........If you're scared then say you're scared. :twisted:


Jay, I don't need a helmet to catch dogs. In fact, just my good looks alone causes many dogs to want to talk to me! :wink: 

On the subject of safety, if we do the same thing that was done in the 1960's have we made change or done anything to improve a way of doing something? If safety points can be used and skills built upon from there I say do it. If that were the case, why wear a cup? Suck it up, go turtle, and play thtough the "experience." Not me!!!

As a wood shop teacher, I can show kids the short cuts and the "less than safe" way for ripping wood. It only makes good sense to exercise care and use those things that work for the skills that are given. Then go balls to the wall crazy. I use to play, coach and referee soccer...I wouldn't play without shinguards now. Just good common sense stuff in MO.


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## Dan Long (Jan 10, 2008)

jay lyda said:


> Well, ya know what I say........If you're scared then say you're scared. :twisted:


SHOULD a decoy be scared? I'd think you'd want to respect the dog's abilities, but if you are scared, then you are in the wrong place.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Dan Long said:


> SHOULD a decoy be scared? I'd think you'd want to respect the dog's abilities, but if you are scared, then you are in the wrong place.


Dan fear, scared and/or respect are close to the same thing in my book. We both ride motorcycles, fear of being run over by a car is a real issue. It doesn't keep me from riding. If one plays to the fear/scared concept, then you have NO business doing anything that puts your efforts in a false state of being. Being TOO at ease is just as bad. 

I always have the "what if" issue going on, being bit has been and continues to be the element decoys/helpers face, regardless of K-9 venue. You could never ask a green decoy not to be, first time on a motorcyle and at 30mph was fear gone wild. That is until I felt at ease with the machine and the new fun I was having.


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## Dan Long (Jan 10, 2008)

That goes back to proper training- on a motorcycle, you don't hop on and take off on the interstate. (unless you have a death wish). You take safe rider classes, practice your skills like emergency stopping and swerving, start riding on local low speed roads and as you get more comfortable and confident, you gradually build up to higher speed roads, more traffic, and different road conditions. Decoy training should be the same way- fundamentals, foundation training, increase the risk as your skills increase.

Someone posted earlier in this thread that before they ever caught a dog they were dodging foam objects or something like that. I've heard some other people I train with say the same thing- part of their training was like martial arts stuff- no contact, just learning moves on how to put yourself in proper position, etc.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Dodging foam objects, now that's funny. How many foam dogs will they be catching and is it a Wal-Mart employee? LOL


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## Julie Blanding (Mar 12, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> FIRST, stop with the sexist issues. Men and women can decoy and the only real difference is the physical ability of men, this goes for everything...


I agree, but of course I would. 8) There are certianly things I have troubles with due to my lack of strength. I don't have shoulders like a man, and I'm actually glad about that... 
I think timing, being able to read a dog and communicate with the handler are the most important.

That being said, someone that has all of the above and physical strength, speed, and presence is the best.
There aren't too many of those around.. usually if you have all the above, the communication part goes out the window LOL

Julie


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## Michael Breton (Aug 25, 2008)

I just spent the last few months training a couple backup decoys for my training center and here is what I saw.

Above all, it is not about how tough you are or how much pressure you can put on the dog. Your job as a decoy is to improve the dog, not test it. That is what trials are for. Get that in your head or you'll be going home. Also, just because you saw someone do it on YouTube doesn't mean you can or should do it. And above all, "it ain't your dog", so it is your job NOT to hurt the dog. Customers get pissed when you hurt their dog. I have a couple videos on Youtube where I am the dogs personal trainer not heavyweight opponent. (look for cascade K9) That what I want my helpers to be, personal trainers.

I put them in the suit and make them practice foot work over and over until they stop looking like tards. I spent most of my life stick and knife fighting and it really helps with the footwork used in catching dogs. Really helps with the leg bites. Lots of triangle steps and hip movement. We burn holes in the grass until they can move correctly and always with the suit on so they can feel the motions with the burden of the suit.

Then we do a ton of short bites with the dog on leash so they can get over the shock-thrill-fear of catching the dogs. Oh and by the way it hurts to catch a dog in a bite suit so they need to know that and slowly and safely experience it. Sleeve guys freak from the pressure of the bite and the fact you can feel the teeth on your person. Unless you are wearing a Michelin Man suit like a Ray Allen or Bende you will feel it and you will get some owwwies. I slowly move back until we are about 10 feet away. If I see a problem we stop and work it out. Don't add distance if the fundamentals are not there. Don't be in a hurry to add distance, be in a hurry to take it away.

I make them catch the dog on the legs, arms, crotch and anywhere else I feel that is safe. Always on lead so both my perfectly good dog and the new helper are safe. Teach them to stay relaxed until the dog gets there then fight. I learned this while fighting too and it has served me well. Its the reason I can still catch 20 dogs a night. I put a new athletic helper in the suit and he's cooked by the 3rd dog. Relax and he can catch 10. They think I'm superman, but I know I'm "Lazyman" tat-da-da-da:-D 

We ever so slowly add distance and I will back off if I see them having problems.

Everyone makes mistakes and jams the dogs, EVERYONE, even world class helpers. Don't put them in a position to fail because you think it will be funny to see them get snotted. They'll just quit and all of us lose. Don't get mad at them when they jam the dog, help them learn how not to jam. Unless they did something stupid and on purpose. Then chew them hard.

I never let new helpers do frontal chest/shoulder/armpit bites ever, too close to the face, too little experience. I am already ugly enough and it hurts. Yes, I have been bitten in the face (in-experienced handler who only worked sleeves) by own dang dog. He (the dog) said he was sorry so it's OK. I would never wear a helmet ever. To that makes the face a fair target; you have equipment on it so I can bite it. Don't let the helper get hurt, it will happen anyway despite your best efforts. Accidents happen. My dog broke my wife's leg last year when he hit her so hard her foot stuck to the ground - steel plate and a dozen screws and a pin, not to mention $$$$. Now she can't catch dogs anymore (my rule) and I lost a great helper. Yes, women can be excellent helpers.

Good helpers are so rare. We need to do everything in our power to help develop them. Finding a good young helper around here would be like Christmas. All the mondio boards are always complaining about the lack of helpers. It's why the sport is so slow in gaining ground.

I know I am getting to the end of my useful shelf life as a helper. I'm a step slower (maybe two) than I used to be. In fact I had my first real jam in like forever a month ago. I have a big Mal who put the turbo on and jumped from 8 feet away and caught me thinking (thinking is bad) and he creamed me. Lucky neither of us was hurt. He has no respect for his body or mine and its my job to make sure he is not hurt.

I have seen some great heplers (bite suit, not sleeve) out of Mexico lately. Mondio and FR are big there. Also, I think in Mexico, like in Europe, soccer and the footwork they get playing it is a great primer for them.

I wish we could get a more formal training system for suit helpers like they have for sleeve decoys in IPO. Anyone want help with that, I'm in.

Michael


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Good post Michael.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

That was a good post. I would love to have a get together and figure out a good solid way of teaching the basics of decoy work, and get everyone on the same page. We could use a lot of getting on the same page in Mondio. : )

Currently, there are some things going on with some kid from europe that is going around from club to club. Unfortunately, it started off as he would just come and train, I guess now he is charging. This is all fine, but it does not leave us with a program for attracting decoys, which is the biggest problem. nor does it leave us with a program for getting the basics shoved into their evil little minds.

I find that the allure of the trial field, and the fact that we have no decoys has not been so good overall. They are getting on the field too early. That is of course just my opinion, ad it doesn't make them bad guys, as they are not, just that you can see the holes in their development.

I was coached since I was two on the soccer field, and I have a lot of experience playing the game. I was very successful in finding the holes in my opponents games, and using their weakness against them.

For me it is a simple thing, unfortunately people get to upset, too often, so when you point out a hole in thier training, say an inability to target the dog, then you just loose communication with them, and that is not good.


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## Chad Byerly (Jun 24, 2008)

Michael, your post was really helpful. Some echoes of advice I've gotten from other knowledgable people. It would be great if there were more of a program to train up for suitwork. I'm guessing that for now I may just have to hit certifying camps, and keep watching videos etc.

Some stuff that I've done in the suit, for conditioning:
Jog (I do better on a treadmill for this)
- I've jogged around the house throwing balls with my rottie, but I wear out too quick
Running drills like in basketball - touching at different distances and running back to the start line...
Jumping jacks
Etc.

That stuff wears me out. But I do feel a difference. Any other tips would be appreciated.

Also, sorry to hear about your wife's leg.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Don't forget the "crab" or running sideways. Save you some groin pulls.


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## Dan Long (Jan 10, 2008)

That was a great post Michael- exactly what I'd expect for real decoy training. Learn fundamentals with no dogs around, start close, build up distance as you get more experience. Not putting the newbie in the suit and sending him running so the baddest dog out there can kick his butt.


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## Michael Breton (Aug 25, 2008)

As an old guy who is always trying to fit more hours in a 24 hour day I find the workout hard to fit in as well. What I use is a Nordic Track if I can fit time in to work out. It works upper and lower with little stress on my creaky rebuilt knees. I even do it in the suit sometimes or at least the pants so I can just get to the point where I can ignore them. My biggest tip is to not get worn out in the first place. RELAX IN THE SUIT until the dog gets there.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Michael you bring up some good and interesting points. It's easy to be an armchair quarterback on the decoy subject, kind of like coaching a sport and never playing one...watching videos on the subject doesn't help. Jeff's crap information is good too for pull prevention. I can respect more of the opinion from those who have done it, than those without experience. Testing, yep ever decoy and TD does it. I see good from doing it as long as it builds on experience. We test or pretest; the real mark of excellence is in the trial or street application. 

New decoys must understand that being a statue and not yielding to the force the dog hits you with can cause problems. Handlers also need to understand the concept of proper leash control and timing their praise as the dog remains on the bite. Building on each level makes better decoys. 

Decoying is different for the venues we work in. I wouldn't ask a Schutzhund decoy to train working police or security dogs. Likewise the types of pressure one trains for in police work cannot be used in the same manner as the sport venues. Thanks for sharing the information and adding to the topic!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

My crap information???? LOL Nice.


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## Chad Byerly (Jun 24, 2008)

Thanks Jeff. I should definately do that sideways crap, too. 

Earlier this year, Jeremy Norton had a pretty hilarious video of running around and working out on a trampoline and excersise bike... before the USMRA Championship. I enjoyed showing it to my friends, who laugh at me for running on a treadmill in a big michelin-man suit. Funny stuff.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Jeff I see it now, sorry no shot, just piss poor typing skills...Allow me to remove the finger from my nose and get the act together, sorry!!!


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## Chad Byerly (Jun 24, 2008)

Michael Breton said:


> I put them in the suit and make them practice foot work over and over...
> I spent most of my life stick and knife fighting and it really helps with the footwork used in catching dogs. Really helps with the leg bites. Lots of triangle steps and hip movement. We burn holes in the grass until they can move correctly and always with the suit on so they can feel the motions with the burden of the suit.


:?:Could you please explain or link to something that you think best explains the footwork you are suggesting? I barely have any personal experience with martial arts (Aikido), and I'm not familiear with "triangle steps". Thanks.

Searching on youtube, after belly dancing (which would probably also be good!) there were these:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piaxCbV6YX8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FS0BA3_4csQ


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Chad forget the dance lessons and just do it. Short steps rather than longer ones. If you have any martial arts background and it's good, you know about center points and balance. Now, go and be the decoy Grasshopper. Bonsai.....:twisted:


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Chad forget the dance lessons and just do it. Short steps rather than longer ones. If you have any martial arts background and it's good, you know about center points and balance. Now, go and be the decoy Grasshopper. Bonsai.....:twisted:



Something about center and balance.....Riding horses teaches GREAT center and balance as the more you can roll your hips in the saddle the less likely you are to be bucked off should a horse throw a tantrum. 

I have found that when catching a dog....the same technique is very helpful in a good catch. I have also found that being short legged has helped me as I don't nearly have to compensate with baby steps as my legs are short enough to keep my steps nice and short. I've only wore a suit once though....my main learning has been a sleeve. 

Courtney


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