# Tommy Luijken



## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

One of my FEMA USAR teammates purchased a Tommy son in October or November (I think) of 2007. He's 18 months old now and lately she's been bringing him to me for training. Seems like a nice working dog. I know Tommy is a well-known Dutchie, so I figured people here probably know him. 

What can you tell me about Tommy? What are his drives like? I read a few things about him on-line, but it would be nice to have info from folks who have met him or have worked with him.

I don't know who the dam is, but I could find out. It would be interesting to hear what she's like too if anybody knows her. I'll post that info if I get it.

Thanks.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

BIG crushing grips Is what I have heard. I know two friends with females out of him both right at a year old. They are happy with them.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Selena is our resident Tommy expert, I will let her answer this one


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Are there any links to photos, pedigrees, videos, etc.?


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

We know Tommy and his owner. Tommy is a Rocky-son (Dick's Rocky) and inherited much of his characteristics and passes them on. Dominant dog, good grips, a will of his own, good stud.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Daryl Ehret said:


> Are there any links to photos, pedigrees, videos, etc.?


website with also al lot of Tommy offspring
http://www.luykensdogsite.nl/

bloodline:

www.bloedlijnen.nl/stamboom.php?ID=2541#


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> We know Tommy and his owner. Tommy is a Rocky-son (Dick's Rocky) and inherited much of his characteristics and passes them on. Dominant dog, good grips, a will of his own, good stud.


Hmmm...I don't see these traits in this Tommy son in particular. He's OK for what we need for USAR (not my type at the moment, but will probably end up passing the certification), but I wouldn't classify him as having a good grip or a crushing grip at all. He's actually pretty soft in that regard. He doesn't seem to have a "will of his own" either. His handler is fairly soft, not ever having handled/trained a dog like this before and he doesn't seem to have a desire to take over at all. He does look a lot like Tommy though. Same exact head.

I asked the owner and she doesn't know who the dam is, unfortunately. She's trying to get that information.

I'm hoping we can bring a little bit more out of this dog, that's why I asked. He's going to need to use every ounce of drive he has in order to be a good USAR dog.

Thanks for the info, everybody.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

I'd be curious to see who the dam is.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

I'll post the dam's information if the owner ever gets it. I'm very curious who she is as well.


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## Dick van Leeuwen (Nov 28, 2006)

Konnie Hein said:


> Hmmm...I don't see these traits in this Tommy son in particular. He's OK for what we need for USAR (not my type at the moment, but will probably end up passing the certification), but I wouldn't classify him as having a good grip or a crushing grip at all. He's actually pretty soft in that regard. He doesn't seem to have a "will of his own" either. His handler is fairly soft, not ever having handled/trained a dog like this before and he doesn't seem to have a desire to take over at all. He does look a lot like Tommy though. Same exact head.
> 
> I asked the owner and she doesn't know who the dam is, unfortunately. She's trying to get that information.
> 
> ...


Are they sure this is a young Tommy?? That name "sells" good, if you know what I mean.

The dog you discribe is totaly NOT what Tommy or his father my Rocky inherited.
I don't know how old the dog is, but if he is very young its possible he matures late.
Thats something that can happen in the bloodline, some dogs mature late.
Like Selena already wrote, why my Rocky and now Tommy are used al lot is because they inheret stabile dogs with strong full grips and tough on their body. They must be dominant and full of drive when worked with, then again, calm, with the right inner rest when not.

So you can understand I see no simularity at all with the dog you discribe.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Dick van Leeuwen said:


> Are they sure this is a young Tommy?? That name "sells" good, if you know what I mean.
> 
> The dog you discribe is totaly NOT what Tommy or his father my Rocky inherited.
> I don't know how old the dog is, but if he is very young its possible he matures late.
> ...


I absolutely understand what you're saying. The dog is 18 mos. old. I don't know if she has proof he is a Tommy son. He looks very similar to Tommy (especially his head), but I know that's not saying much.

I had a hard time believing he was a Tommy son too, based on what I've heard about Tommy. However, not every pup in the litter can be great, can it? Maybe this is one of the few not-so-great ones and maybe that's why he was sold.


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## Dick van Leeuwen (Nov 28, 2006)

Konnie Hein said:


> However, not every pup in the litter can be great, can it? Maybe this is one of the few not-so-great ones and maybe that's why he was sold.


I agree.
I don't know how old they bought him, but it sure is a possibility.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Dick van Leeuwen said:


> I agree.
> I don't know how old they bought him, but it sure is a possibility.


He was 10 or 11 months old when he was sold to her.

At 18 months of age, I do hope he has some maturing to do. I'm hoping we can bring out a lot more in him too, now that she's going to be following my training program, which teaches the dog to work in the top 20% of his drive.

Thanks, Dick, for taking the time to share information with me. I greatly appreciate it.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Heres some video footage of Tommy that I put up on youtube.
I have frozen semen from him and hope one day to get a litter from him. I have a Tommy grandson, and hes pretty damm good.
Tommy himself was quite handler aggressive, but im not too sure he through much handler aggression. Maybe others who know the dog better can tell.
But he has strong nerves, good looking, great bloodline and produces well. But he is more Police dog than sport dog.
Now the clips
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dertt20WZOg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92fmHgMqXAI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ey7trEJrVtI

And his owner Rob is a really nice guy.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Konnie Hein said:


> He was 10 or 11 months old when he was sold to her.
> 
> At 18 months of age, I do hope he has some maturing to do. I'm hoping we can bring out a lot more in him too


At 18 months I don't think you can bring much out that hasn't already come out, how's the dog doing now ?


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Well...sometimes it's tough to separate handler training errors from a dog's genetic potential. Know what I mean?


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Konnie Hein said:


> Well...sometimes it's tough to separate handler training errors from a dog's genetic potential. Know what I mean?


Oh ya, if you look up training errors in the dictionary they have a picture of me there as a reference.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Tommy is a dog alot like Arko, that type of dog is better suited for police work, not S & R in my opinion.
Those types of dogs remind me of Marine Corps "grunts".
They are not flashy in obedience, they dont really have a strong will to please the handler, they are EXTREMELY dominant and possesive, they have very hard crushing grips, it is hard to explain how they are until you see many of those types of dogs in person. They are more calm when not working, and much more serious in everything they do. I will be the first one to say that Arko cant track a big mack with legs, his nose work is not great for sure. Not sure how Tommy is in that area, but in many other areas they are very similar and also produce similar type of puppies from what I have seen.
Dick is right........the name "sells"
For example, Arko has been in my kennel in the USA for two years, but i have had people tell me that they have Arko offspring imported from Holland that are 14 months old?????? Arko was not collected there, so how that this be? I think some people in Europe know what names sell well here in the USA and they try to capitalize on that.:^o 
Any dog will produce a less than ideal puppy from time to time, so to see one Tommy son who is not great and judge Tommy from that one puppy is not fair. Take a look at 300 Tommy puppies and then make your descision.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> They are not flashy in obedience, they dont really have a strong will to please the handler, they are EXTREMELY dominant and possesive, they have very hard crushing grips, it is hard to explain how they are until you see many of those types of dogs in person. They are more calm when not working, and much more serious in everything they do.


Quoted for truth.
I think people need to spend time around these dogs to understand what they are about. They are different.
They are calmer in the kennel than my GSD's are, yet if they get something in their heads like pulling their kennels to bits they will not quit untill they have done it. Even to the expence of their teeth.....
They also just love to bite. They have blind drive, meaning they are so driven they tune out of everything else, including the handlers commands. They only have the decoy in their minds. They have strong thresholds, including to corrections. Like Mike says, they arnt happy waggy tail please the owner dogs. They also have this dominance thing where while they might accept you as the master, they still will not tollerate unfair corrections. 
Oh, they can be very stubborn and willful. :wink:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

The way I read it, it seemed like she was sold a bill of goods, not that it was a negative on Tommy. 

Sure, not all the pups would be good, but to not be able to do SAR,

(why the **** they would want a Tommy pup in the first place is beyond me) 

It really sounds like the pedigree is BS. Won't be the thousandth time either.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Mike & Christopher describe our dogs/breedingprogram better than I ever could, thanks guys, it is really hard to tell ' cause people think you're exacterating and usually I don't use a lot of strong words.
It is one of the reasons we are very carefully where we place our puppy's;-) 

@ Mike, indeed easy to use a name which "sells", i'm sorry you have to encounter that, not the nicest thing if you're a breeder.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

mike suttle said:


> Tommy is a dog alot like Arko, that type of dog is better suited for police work, not S & R in my opinion.
> Those types of dogs remind me of Marine Corps "grunts".
> They are not flashy in obedience, they dont really have a strong will to please the handler, they are EXTREMELY dominant and possesive, they have very hard crushing grips, it is hard to explain how they are until you see many of those types of dogs in person. They are more calm when not working, and much more serious in everything they do.


This is exactly what I had heard about Tommy. In posting my original post, my hopes were to find some info about Tommy that might help me with the one I'm currently working with. Overall, I think the dog in question is just not a good representative of the lines. Additionally, the handler owned this dog for over 6 months prior to me first working with them. I've come to find out that she worked with a "protection dog trainer," who instructed her to do things with this dog that I feel are contrary to disaster SAR work as well as detrimental to the confidence of a dog with his temperament. Confidence is critical in a disaster SAR dog. There are other issues as well that are training-related, but that might not affect a stronger dog. I'll leave it at that.



> Any dog will produce a less than ideal puppy from time to time, so to see one Tommy son who is not great and judge Tommy from that one puppy is not fair. Take a look at 300 Tommy puppies and then make your descision.


Agreed 100%. Again, my intention was not to judge, but simply to gain more information, which I certainly have. Thanks again to all of you for taking the time to respond.


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

mike suttle said:


> Those types of dogs remind me of Marine Corps "grunts".
> They are not flashy in obedience, they dont really have a strong will to please the handler, they are EXTREMELY dominant and possesive, they have very hard crushing grips, it is hard to explain how they are until you see many of those types of dogs in person. They are more calm when not working, and much more serious in everything they do.


So, not to sidetrack too much, but I am curious. You're talking about the adult dog temperament, right? What are they like as puppies? You're a breeder, so say you're looking at a big litter - what do you see that makes you think some could be "that kind of dog" and some don't make the grade?


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Anna Kasho said:


> So, not to sidetrack too much, but I am curious. You're talking about the adult dog temperament, right? What are they like as puppies? You're a breeder, so say you're looking at a big litter - what do you see that makes you think some could be "that kind of dog" and some don't make the grade?


As very young pups these guys will wonder off by themselves, they will go anywhere with their tails in the air very confidently, regardless of where the rest of the litter and the mothe may be. They will probably not be crazy about barking at a rag early on, and they may not show much prey drive in general. If you play too rough with them, they will bite you and become dominant toward your hand if you leave it there and keep "picking a fight with them" (i see this at 6 weeks of age a lot in Arko pups) They pick fights with everybody in the litter and try to bully the other puppies around.
They will carry anything off to the side, lay down with it and growl at anyone who comes near the object they have. They are very independent, and very sure of themselves.
When they do get loaded in drive then they get crazy and become enraged :evil: more than excited really.
believe me....you will know it when you see it.
If you work a dog like this in a civil way they become absolutely DANGEROUS!

My advice.....take the happy puppy that wants to follow you and chase the rag, the one who barks easily and is not so serious. many people may see one of the super dominant pups and say he is a "dud" because he is not running around like an idiot chasing everything that moves. And even though they are loooking for a "serious protection dog" they will still take the crazy prey driven puppies and pass up the best real protection dog prospect who is calmly waiting in the corner with 6 of his toys under his front legs and 2 in his mouth, staring straight into your eyes, daring you to try to take one of his toy.:twisted:


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

mike suttle said:


> As very young pups these guys will wonder off by themselves, they will go anywhere with their tails in the air very confidently, regardless of where the rest of the litter and the mothe may be. They will probably not be crazy about barking at a rag early on, and they may not show much prey drive in general. If you play too rough with them, they will bite you and become dominant toward your hand if you leave it there and keep "picking a fight with them" (i see this at 6 weeks of age a lot in Arko pups) They pick fights with everybody in the litter and try to bully the other puppies around.
> They will carry anything off to the side, lay down with it and growl at anyone who comes near the object they have. They are very independent, and very sure of themselves.
> When they do get loaded in drive then they get crazy and become enraged :evil: more than excited really.
> believe me....you will know it when you see it.
> ...


Sounds really NICE, Mike. Like you said, you need to see it!!


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

mike suttle said:


> For example, Arko has been in my kennel in the USA for two years, but i have had people tell me that they have Arko offspring imported from Holland that are 14 months old?????? Arko was not collected there, so how that this be? I think some people in Europe know what names sell well here in the USA and they try to capitalize on that.:^o


It must be less than 2 yrs Mike, otherwise the majority of his registered progeny on the bloodline site are bogus.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> It must be less than 2 yrs Mike, otherwise the majority of his registered progeny on the bloodline site are bogus.


That was just an example of the time frame difference Gerry between when he came over here and how young the dogs are that are supposed to be his offspring.
Last year I got a call from someone who said they had an imported Arko puppy that was younger than the Arko pups that were born in my own kennel. that is the point I was trying to make.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Nevermind :lol: , math was never my forte.

Just ignore the previous post.


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