# Junior Mint.....Ash's brother and Buko's Spawn....



## Carol Boche

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4syR31azqeE

Elizabeth switched to the dark side and got her first Mal. She is in love and I think her and Mint will get along famously. This is her first time training with him and she has had him about a day in this video.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I liked the perma grin she had almost the entire weekend.


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## Elizabeth Digmann

The perma grin hasn't wore off yet jeff!


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## Thomas Barriano

Carol Boche said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4syR31azqeE
> 
> Elizabeth switched to the dark side and got her first Mal. She is in love and I think her and Mint will get along famously. This is her first time training with him and she has had him about a day in this video.


Carol,

The decoy needs to lift his knee so the dog gets a leg presentation not a foot presentation. Nice looking puppy, but at this age I think using two jambieres and trades would be better.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

No he doesn't. Lifting the knee is a crutch for bad work. Considering it was his FIRST TIME EVER, I thought he did pretty good. Lifting the knee rewards the dog for going high.

What would the need for a trade be ? The dog will out. Not what we were working on, which was teaching Wade to target the dog correctly.


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## Steve Strom

I don't know anything about the type of training, but I do like seeing the dogs like this that can just do it.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I hate drive building. It is for retards. LOL Why do you think I am so fat ? No need to run around like an idiot. The dog brings his own.


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## Steve Strom

Drive building, socialising, exposure to x,y,&z. Who cares about the dogs. Thats how I stay in shape and cognitive.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I guess the other thing, with this pup, where are you going to go with drive building ?? Does anyone really want to go there ?

Maybe I should go back to Sch, have to run around and do all those misses, and puppy lines, back and forth back and forth.

Mmmmmmm no.


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## Thomas Barriano

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> No he doesn't. Lifting the knee is a crutch for bad work. Considering it was his FIRST TIME EVER, I thought he did pretty good. Lifting the knee rewards the dog for going high.
> 
> What would the need for a trade be ? The dog will out. Not what we were working on, which was teaching Wade to target the dog correctly.


Jeff,

Don't make excuses. The presentation was not good, the leg was at a 45 degree angle and most of the bites were to the inside of the leg. If you don't like a high target, then have the kid keep his feet on the ground and do drag ins.
A lift off isn't an out.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

The presentation was fine, I want the dog biting there, I want the 45 degree angle, and he is not ready for drag ins.

This is not Charlies club. We do things correctly, and will get past ring one, unlike anyone in her club. Notice how anyone that has gotten past the one left that club to do so ?


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## Candy Eggert

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I hate drive building. It is for retards. LOL The dog brings his own.


Ok I have a question here. Not even related to the bitework here but more about drive building. How is drive building different for one sport and yet using a leg sleeve/tug to get the desire drive to go over the jumps is not?! 

It's all training and drive building to some extent. Even if you hate it


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## Carol Boche

Candy....I can't comment on Minty's stuff except for that he was already pre-wired to bite. 

Ajay and Ash as far as the jumps....they were doing it on their own, so we did not need to really teach the jump, but rather teach to jump cleanly. 

The way I look at drive building is working with a dog that you have to pump up (threshhold category, maybe?) and actually work to get the dog to do something.....rather than a dog who comes out, sees things and just will do it. 

Poor explanation I know, but I am not sure how else to explain it. Not sure if this is what you were asking though.....


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Maybe drive building is not the right word. It works for me for the bitework, but how do you make a jump to be fun ?? There are a lot of things that build drive wether you want them too or not, but when you have to dance around and throw shit to get a dog past it's thresholds so it can work, that sucks.

So, you can come up with a different word. I am out of ideas. : )


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## Joby Becker

isn't making a dog miss a bunch of times before it is allowed to bite also considered drive building of some sort? 

Carol...I know this is just a small puppy starting out, but if that is your guy, make sure he knows not to try that type of foot first presentation with older dogs...his foot will get bitten for sure, with certain dogs...if it gets bit by a little puppy not a big deal...nice puppy....


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I do it all the time. No bitten feet. When the dog is learning to target, they can be a pain. Wade is just learning, so he is going to make mistakes. Notice I put my foot forward, and the dog targets perfectly. It is just the difference between having done it many many times, as opposed to what you saw with Wade, and that was his first time ever.


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## Joby Becker

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I do it all the time. No bitten feet. When the dog is learning to target, they can be a pain. Wade is just learning, so he is going to make mistakes. Notice I put my foot forward, and the dog targets perfectly. It is just the difference between having done it many many times, as opposed to what you saw with Wade, and that was his first time ever.


just being prudent jeff...no harm meant..

Just in case Wade gets a hankering to work some other dogs...as you are very well aware of, some dogs, especially when being restrained...and frustrated, will grab the first thing available to them...in which case you want to present the target area first...not the foot...
nice pup.


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## Thomas Barriano

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> The presentation was fine, I want the dog biting there, I want the 45 degree angle, and he is not ready for drag ins.
> 
> >What ever you say Jeff LOL
> >Look at your own damn video. The dog is NOT biting the same
> >place when you're doing the presentation as she does when the
> >kid does. His presentation is NOT like yours. Now it's his first
> >time, so no one expects perfection but don't try to make out
> >there are not mistakes
> 
> This is not Charlies club. We do things correctly, and will get past ring one, unlike anyone in her club. Notice how anyone that has gotten past the one left that club to do so ?
> 
> >WTF does Charlie or her club have to do with anything?


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## Christopher Smith

Joby Becker said:


> just being prudent jeff...no harm meant..


Don't worry Joby, ****ed-up decoy work like that has a way of correcting itself. Sure it's gonna cost that kid a few stitches. 

But hey, what are ya gonna do?:roll:


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## Carol Boche

Christopher Smith said:


> Don't worry Joby, ****ed-up decoy work like that has a way of correcting itself. Sure it's gonna cost that kid a few stitches.
> 
> But hey, what are ya gonna do?:roll:


IT IS WADE'S FIRST TIME!!!!!!!!! Do you not see that posted ALL OVER the place.....geesh. 

For the guys that want to be critical and bash him for being incorrect on his first day....come on out and teach him. I am sure he will make absolutely no mistakes with all the perfect circles that are critiquing his first day of work.


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## Joby Becker

Christopher Smith said:


> Don't worry Joby, ****ed-up decoy work like that has a way of correcting itself. Sure it's gonna cost that kid a few stitches.
> 
> But hey, what are ya gonna do?:roll:


I know...believe me I KNOW....It is good when the teacher tells you these things, at least then you are told about the possibilities, and shown correctly how to do certain things...at least then your mistakes are your own fault....
at least he has shoes on


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## Thomas Barriano

Carol Boche said:


> IT IS WADE'S FIRST TIME!!!!!!!!! Do you not see that posted ALL OVER the place.....geesh.
> 
> For the guys that want to be critical and bash him for being incorrect on his first day....come on out and teach him. I am sure he will make absolutely no mistakes with all the perfect circles that are critiquing his first day of work.


Hi Carol,

I can't speak for anyone else, but my intention wasn't to bash Wade. However, when people point out mistakes (to be expected on the first day) it is silly to claim there aren't any mistakes or you "planned it" that way.


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## Carol Boche

Thomas Barriano said:


> Hi Carol,
> 
> I can't speak for anyone else, but my intention wasn't to bash Wade. However, when people point out mistakes (to be expected on the first day) it is silly to claim there aren't any mistakes or you "planned it" that way.


Not directed at you at all Thomas. It is the Joby and Chris show that I am talking about. No offer of advice, just a**hole BS. 

I am new, but I see there are mistakes because he is new. But I am also standing right there and hear what Jeff is saying and seeing Wade do something a little different than what was explained......that is where I see the mistakes. 

I am not fighting Jeff's battles.....he is a big boy, if he wants to play it is not my business or concern just because we are friends.....but I am TIRED of all the BS...

The mods should just put up a "Let's Bash Each Other" section and maybe it will keep it out of EVERY thread on the forum. UGH ](*,)](*,)](*,)


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Don't worry Joby, ****ed-up decoy work like that has a way of correcting itself. Sure it's gonna cost that kid a few stitches.

Here is the thing. We don't do defense work, as the dog is ready to go as is. 

When you actually can prove your silly accusations, maybe someone will listen. However, I cannot see talking to you, as you are blind to your own faults, and cannot see past your own style of training.

Junior Mint is 8 months old. He will be targeting just fine very soon. No need to worry about all this silly thinking that he will be biting people in the foot. That is how it works when you have enough dog to start with, and don't have to spin them up in defense. 

Maybe you didn't notice, but he had all the opportunity in the world to bite the foot. He is a good boy, and bit where he was supposed to. I am sure you noticed that, but chose to look stupid instead.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: so no one expects perfection but don't try to make out
>there are not mistakes

I am not sure what you are reading, but just the fact that the dog bit so low was a mistake.

Charley's club is where you learned this stuff. Lifting the knee ? C'mon, Not for the young ones. : )


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## Joby Becker

Carol Boche said:


> Not directed at you at all Thomas. It is the Joby and Chris show that I am talking about. No offer of advice, just a**hole BS.
> 
> I am new, but I see there are mistakes because he is new. But I am also standing right there and hear what Jeff is saying and seeing Wade do something a little different than what was explained......that is where I see the mistakes.
> 
> I am not fighting Jeff's battles.....he is a big boy, if he wants to play it is not my business or concern just because we are friends.....but I am TIRED of all the BS...
> 
> The mods should just put up a "Let's Bash Each Other" section and maybe it will keep it out of EVERY thread on the forum. UGH ](*,)](*,)](*,)


WTF?

the Joby show?

I was offering YOU advice...it IS good advice....not bashing...and it had nothing to do with jeff...I see a kid sticking his foot out there first. which is a HUGE NO-NO...was just saying if Wade decides he likes doing this sort of thing and tries that with even a 6 month old dog that is fired up, let alone an adult that may actually like to hurt him, he WILL get bit in his foot...most dogs won't go for a foot true, some do...and when they are being restrained, dogs that would never go for a foot if allowed to target on there own, WILL grab the foot. 

keeping the decoy and dog safe is very important. like I said in this case with this puppy it doesnt really matter....but another dog or older pup could be highly dangerous....
it's the same as teaching an arm bite by leading with your hand...generally a real bad idea....

again offering friendly advice so the kid doesn't get screwed over, doing things he was taught to do....

you are pretty uptight these days....


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Again, you must have missed what I wrote about not spinning the dog up, and how he could have done that, but didn't.

The other thing, is that Wade was too far out, and that is why the foot was available to begin with. But you just don't have the experience to point that out. Something to think about. It is one thing to just pop off and say how bad it is, but when you cannot see what was wrong............... better get some experience before you go helping.


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## Adam Rawlings

I just uploaded a video recorded last summer of my pup being introduced to the leg sleeve. This is Jean-Marc Alan and I think he is a really good decoy to imulate as far as presentation and encouragement for young dogs. I have watched this and few others my wife recorded about a million times to make sure I'm doing the best job possible with my own dog. If your interested I can post another video of short sends on the bungee. Hope it helps your new decoy's. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-XYRTSlHLk

Please ignore me brutalizing the French language.


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## Thomas Barriano

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: so no one expects perfection but don't try to make out
> >there are not mistakes
> 
> I am not sure what you are reading, but just the fact that the dog bit so low was a mistake.
> 
> *I was referring to the decoy mistakes. I thought the dog did a
> *lot of compensating to do a decent job
> 
> Charley's club is where you learned this stuff. Lifting the knee ? C'mon, Not for the young ones. : )
> 
> *I haven't been a member of Charleys club for years. I visited
> *one Sunday in the past six months and went to one training
> *weekend with Keith Jobe and Chris Moody in Las Animas
> *I train with Chris Dunlap three times during the week. Charley
> *comes up maybe twice a month on average. I thought lifting
> *the knee would held keep the leg perpendicular to the ground
> *and avoid leading with the foot.
> *http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLnD0OTVUWk
> *Is this what you're trying to accomplish? Weak Shallow bites
> *Bite transfers and a k9 Pro Sports title?


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## Carol Boche

Joby Becker said:


> WTF?
> 
> the Joby show?
> 
> I was offering YOU advice...it IS good advice....not bashing...and it had nothing to do with jeff...I see a kid sticking his foot out there first. which is a HUGE NO-NO...was just saying if Wade decides he likes doing this sort of thing and tries that with even a 6 month old dog that is fired up, let alone an adult that may actually like to hurt him, he WILL get bit in his foot...most dogs won't go for a foot true, some do...and when they are being restrained, dogs that would never go for a foot if allowed to target on there own, WILL grab the foot.
> 
> keeping the decoy and dog safe is very important. like I said in this case with this puppy it doesnt really matter....but another dog or older pup could be highly dangerous....
> it's the same as teaching an arm bite by leading with your hand...generally a real bad idea....
> 
> again offering friendly advice so the kid doesn't get screwed over, doing things he was taught to do....
> 
> you are pretty uptight these days....


So offer the advice without the negative comments about other peoples training techniques then. THAT is what pisses me off. ALL people train differently and most will disagree on each others training stuff. I understand that, completely. 

Lately there has not been a thread where someone is NOT bashing someone, I don't care who it is.....discuss the topic and stop bashing each other. 

We realize that Wade needs to learn....period.

I understand that not everyone will try to maintain but if some of us do, it only shows that we can discuss things without getting shitty.


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## Thomas Barriano

Adam Rawlings said:


> I just uploaded a video recorded last summer of my pup being introduced to the leg sleeve. This is Jean-Marc Alan and I think he is a really good decoy to imulate as far as presentation and encouragement for young dogs. I have watched this and few others my wife recorded about a million times to make sure I'm doing the best job possible with my own dog. If your interested I can post another video of short sends on the bungee. Hope it helps your new decoy's.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-XYRTSlHLk
> 
> Please ignore me brutalizing the French language.


Thanks Adam
That's what I'm talking about. Vertical jambier presentation with the foot on the ground or at least parallel with the knee


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## Carol Boche

Thanks Adam....I appreciate that.


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## Chris Michalek

Carol Boche said:


> We realize that Wade needs to learn....period.


a green decoy on a green dog doesn't make much sense to me. Maybe he should be learning with Buko instead of a pup that doesn't know anything?


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## Carol Boche

Chris Michalek said:


> a green decoy on a green dog doesn't make much sense to me. Maybe he should be learning with Buko instead of a pup that doesn't know anything?



He caught Buko all weekend. The other thing is, we are in the middle of nowhere and have no decoys around close that can do the legwork. So we have to do what we have to do. 

Ideal, well no. 

I want to bring a decoy in, but how many are going to want to come and do baby stuff all weekend, since all of our dogs are just starting. 

This is why I need to call Rutt and see what we can work out. 

I am willing to bring in an experienced decoy....period.


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## Kristen Cabe

“It is not necessary to understand things in order to argue about them.” - Caron de Beaumarchais


Just sayin' :lol:


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## Guest

Hey, looks good, looks like everyone is having a good time, new decoy, new young dogs and handlers. Everyone has there own take on things and how things should be done, but dog looks good and if he got bit in a foot, well, I bet it wouldn't happen again right?! BTW, if that is wrong presenation?? Not a ring guy, but that dog doesn't look like he will have any problems.....

That place looks great, a nice winter getaway!


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## Christopher Jones

I got hold of a 4 or 5 dvd set of a Mondio Ring seminar held in Finland by Eddy Gilson and Stephanie Dehen. If you get a chance to get a copy you should. It is in French and Finnish, but you can see exactly how they present and the like. There are pups all the way up to trained adults on the video.


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## Candy Eggert

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Maybe drive building is not the right word. It works for me for the bitework, but how do you make a jump to be fun ?? There are a lot of things that build drive wether you want them too or not, but when you have to dance around and throw shit to get a dog past it's thresholds so it can work, that sucks.
> 
> So, you can come up with a different word. I am out of ideas. : )


@ Carol. Of course Minty comes pre-wired to bite. He's a Malinois ;-) Congrats to Elizabeth. Most dogs can jump. Teaching them to jump cleanly and thinking clearly is to teach them proper jumping form ;-) 

@ Jeff. I'm not sure of a better word either. 

Throwing something for a dog to get them to go over a jump in the beginning is the same as using a leg sleeve as an attraction to get them to come over the jump. Problem I see using either of those two methods is that the dog/pup isn't thinking. He's reacting. I try to not teach (foundation work) anything in drive because I learned the hard way with Vini. You don't just take a tug and toss it over the jump and not expect him to full on body crash in to it. Drive was fully intact, the brain was not engaged :lol:

For me drive building means setting the ideal drive where you want it to become the norm for the dog. 

As for high thresholds, well I'm too old for that crapola


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## todd pavlus

Carol Boche said:


> He caught Buko all weekend. The other thing is, we are in the middle of nowhere and have no decoys around close that can do the legwork. So we have to do what we have to do.
> 
> Ideal, well no.
> 
> I want to bring a decoy in, but how many are going to want to come and do baby stuff all weekend, since all of our dogs are just starting.
> 
> This is why I need to call Rutt and see what we can work out.
> 
> I am willing to bring in an experienced decoy....period.


Why don't you send him to the a Jimmy Vanhove seminar. There's been 3 of them in the last year.


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## Timothy Stacy

Looks like junior mint is having a good time. I will make it up there one of these times since jeff finally got a hair cut.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

The kid is in college. He plays football, so his schedule is pretty busy. I also would feel like crap if he went and did something to his knee catching dogs. 

There is much more to life than dogs, but hopefully he will develop a passion for it, and keep helping Carol after college.


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## Alison Grubb

Nice pup.

Okay, I have some questions...and no these are not loaded questions, I actually do want to hear your answers. First, why do you have the decoy back up every time Mint takes a bite? Also, when Mint got a poorly targeted bite the decoy took the sleeve off and let the pup have it. Is this not rewarding the dog for an incorrectly placed bite? Why not just out him and then show him success with a proper bite?


PS - Jeff did tell the kid that he could get bit. That's about as much warning as I ever get for anything. LOL!


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## Carol Boche

todd pavlus said:


> Why don't you send him to the a Jimmy Vanhove seminar. There's been 3 of them in the last year.


He just decided the week before the seminar to do this...he was watching Jesea do some bitework and wanted to try it. 

Am thinking the one this month is too close for him to be able to leave, but he is wanting to go to a decoy seminar. I told him that if he is serious, which he is, that I would pay for his stuff. 

THAT is how serious I am about getting a decoy here.


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## Tyree Johnson

i like J. Mint ... he looks good .... Liz aint bad either ..... :-o


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## Jeff Oehlsen

She told me she has a perma grin now. Minty is very lucky to have her as an owner, and very good club members. I couldn't be happier with BOTH my pups new owners.


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## Richard Rutt

Send him here next week. Besides Jimmy and I, we will have P-Y Secretain here for the week. Not only is he a QSF judge in Ring, he is an excellent trainer and handler, and a multi time finalist for the Championship of France, and a Mondio Judge!


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I hate being poor.


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## Alison Grubb

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I hate being poor.


Dude, you and me both.


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## Carol Boche

Richard Rutt said:


> Send him here next week. Besides Jimmy and I, we will have P-Y Secretain here for the week. Not only is he a QSF judge in Ring, he is an excellent trainer and handler, and a multi time finalist for the Championship of France, and a Mondio Judge!


I will definitely do my best to get him there. He is supposed to call me back tonight......if he can make it, I will probably attend just to watch.


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## Richard Rutt

No spectators allowed, you either come to train and work dogs, or cook and clean. Your choice!


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Take Ash. Might as well get her some work with Jimmy.


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## Carol Boche

Richard Rutt said:


> No spectators allowed, you either come to train and work dogs, or cook and clean. Your choice!


Can I clean kennels and walk dogs???? :lol::lol:

*sigh* Okay....will bring the Ash(hole)


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## Alison Grubb

Carol, Rick will put you to work no doubt about that.
It's way more fun when he has puppies to play with. lol


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## Carol Boche

Alison Grubb said:


> Carol, Rick will put you to work no doubt about that.
> It's way more fun when he has puppies to play with. lol


I am sure it is....UGH, guess I will just have to admire Vulcain and Boogie....and pout because there are no pups. 

I am not sure it will happen this time though, which sucks.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: I just uploaded a video recorded last summer of my pup being introduced to the leg sleeve. This is Jean-Marc Alan and I think he is a really good decoy to imulate as far as presentation and encouragement for young dogs. I have watched this and few others my wife recorded about a million times to make sure I'm doing the best job possible with my own dog. If your interested I can post another video of short sends on the bungee. Hope it helps your new decoy's. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-XYRTSlHLk

There is no way that I am ever going to compare to this guy. No one in the entire country compares to this guy. If I was a millionarebillionare, I would just hire him to teach all the people I came across as decoys.


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## Adam Rawlings

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: I just uploaded a video recorded last summer of my pup being introduced to the leg sleeve. This is Jean-Marc Alan and I think he is a really good decoy to imulate as far as presentation and encouragement for young dogs. I have watched this and few others my wife recorded about a million times to make sure I'm doing the best job possible with my own dog. If your interested I can post another video of short sends on the bungee. Hope it helps your new decoy's.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-XYRTSlHLk
> 
> There is no way that I am ever going to compare to this guy. No one in the entire country compares to this guy. If I was a millionarebillionare, I would just hire him to teach all the people I came across as decoys.


Many consider him the number one decoy in the world. You should see his work at Coupe De France 2004 or 2005? He is a machine.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Yet you through that video up there, like I had a chance. Nice. =D>=D>=D>=D>=D>=D>


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## Christopher Jones

Adam Rawlings said:


> Many consider him the number one decoy in the world. You should see his work at Coupe De France 2004 or 2005? He is a machine.


Im not up to speed on the whos who of French Ring, so I was wondering if this guy is considered just one of the top trial decoys, or training decoys, or trainers? Or all maybe. 
Thx


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## Richard Rutt

Christopher Jones said:


> Im not up to speed on the whos who of French Ring, so I was wondering if this guy is considered just one of the top trial decoys, or training decoys, or trainers? Or all maybe.
> Thx


J-M Allan is definitely one of the best trial decoys in FR, and would probably make most peoples top 5 or 10 of recent times or top 20 of all time. 

He is an accomplished, knowledgeable, and experienced trainer and training decoy, but most would not consider him, in France, at that same level as a trainer or training decoy, as he is as a trial decoy. 

When the subject of "*trainers*" comes up in France, which it frequently does, the list is separated into 2 groups, Old timers, and Modern Day. I have never heard more than 5 names on either list, and each list always has the same 2 or three names. 

Kinda funny that a country the size of Texas, has more people doing dog sports than the entire U.S. and they only have a few people that everyone considers *"Trainers"* when we have hundreds of "Trainers" just on this message board!


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## Guest

Richard Rutt said:


> J-M Allan is definitely one of the best trial decoys in FR, and would probably make most peoples top 5 or 10 of recent times or top 20 of all time.
> 
> He is an accomplished, knowledgeable, and experienced trainer and training decoy, but most would not consider him, in France, at that same level as a trainer or training decoy, as he is as a trial decoy.
> 
> When the subject of "*trainers*" comes up in France, which it frequently does, the list is separated into 2 groups, Old timers, and Modern Day. I have never heard more than 5 names on either list, and each list always has the same 2 or three names.
> 
> Kinda funny that a country the size of Texas, has more people doing dog sports than the entire U.S. and they only have a few people that everyone considers *"Trainers"* when we have hundreds of "Trainers" just on this message board!


 
Nice, good point know matter how you look at it or disect it!!


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## Adam Rawlings

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Yet you through that video up there, like I had a chance. Nice. =D>=D>=D>=D>=D>=D>


Jeff,

It was more for the new guy's in Carol's club. There is no way in hell I can come close either. There are many little things he's doing with the dog that I don't get becauce of lack of experience. I just try to present the bite the way he does and build my dog up with my voice.


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## Lamar Blackmor

Hello. I am a new member. I would like to see the bungee sends. Please post more video when you have the opportunity. I enjoyed watching Msr. Alan work that puppy.


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## Adam Rawlings

Short bungee sends for Lamar/Timothy?

http://www.youtube.com/user/Felloffher3#p/a/u/0/xsVAJyMapmI


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## Martine Loots

Richard Rutt said:


> He is an accomplished, knowledgeable, and experienced trainer and training decoy, but most would not consider him, in France, at that same level as a trainer or training decoy, as he is as a trial decoy.


I must say I'm glad to read this...
I watched the video and to be honest, I wasn't too impressed, but as I don't know how a pup is built in FR, I didn't want to comment. 
No offense but I sincerely doubt that the pup building works like this in France.


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## Adam Rawlings

Martine Loots said:


> I must say I'm glad to read this...
> I watched the video and to be honest, I wasn't too impressed, but as I don't know how a pup is built in FR, I didn't want to comment.
> No offense but I sincerely doubt that the pup building works like this in France.


What do you think is missing in the work? The two video's were shot on back to back days and they were the first time my pup was on the leg sleeves.


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## Martine Loots

Adam Rawlings said:


> What do you think is missing in the work? The two video's were shot on back to back days and they were the first time my pup was on the leg sleeves.


I don't want to critisize the work. It's just we train the building of a pup completely different. But maybe this is the way it is done in FR.

IMO he does too many exercises for the pup. I don't think the pup is ready for it. I would work more on building of the grip and the right "spot" to bite. The pup should automatically know where and how to bite before starting to do exercises. Anyway, that's the way we do it.
I don't like working with a harness too much either (with a collar you can be much more effective in placing the pup on the right spot). And we work with the handler much closer to the pup.


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## Adam Rawlings

Thanks for the explanation Martine.


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## Martine Loots

This is the way we do the foundation with a very young pup. At this age, it's the ONLY time they get the sleeve as a reward. This was the last training that we did it. With the last exercise you can see he's moving to a next stage: bite and out + reward by getting another sleeve.

All the time the handler stays close to the pup to give maximum support and confidence. And with the collar, it's very easy to place him on the exact spot where he should be.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RZYyda4Ldc&NR=1


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## Richard Rutt

Martine Loots said:


> I must say I'm glad to read this...
> I watched the video and to be honest, I wasn't too impressed, but as I don't know how a pup is built in FR, I didn't want to comment.
> No offense but I sincerely doubt that the pup building works like this in France.


I think your observations are pretty correct. the only thing I would disagree with is the collar vs. harness, just different techniques for different sports, as the desired result is a little different, and personnel preferences. Almost everyone I've trained with in France uses a harness, although there are a few that prefer the collar!


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## Christopher Jones

This is some nice puppy training in France.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x696e3_sniper-du-vieux-marronier_animals


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## Tim Bartlett

Christopher Jones said:


> This is some nice puppy training in France.
> http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x696e3_sniper-du-vieux-marronier_animals


Does anyone know if this dog was titled?? That is a lot of training and control on a puppy that young. Curious to see how the dog turned out.


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## Chris McDonald

This is so stupid everyone know you should have the kid do a handstand for the dogs first leg bite. Looks like everyone was having a good time 
Who is the tough looking lady in the orange shirt with the butch hair cut?


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## Adam Rawlings

Martine or Richard,

Just wondering why doing several exersices is to much for a young dog? Just trying to learn thanks.


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## Kadi Thingvall

Tim Bartlett said:


> Does anyone know if this dog was titled?? That is a lot of training and control on a puppy that young. Curious to see how the dog turned out.


The dog in that video just turned 2 in March. I can't find any trial results online so far, but who knows ... Not all trial results in France are online, I know FRIIIs who I haven't been able to find any results online for. I wouldn't be surprised to see he gets an FRIII though. This type of training selects for future generations of dogs that can handle it and still be successful.

The video of JM working the GSD is pretty typical of what I have seen for training. Somewhere I have some old seminar video of Serge Ocard from 15+ years ago, training very similar. As soon as the pups were on the leg sleeve or suit he was starting them on the blind search, defense of handler, etc. 

This is a video of Herve Mavuanga working one of my pups at a seminar, she was 4 months old and teething. He worked her the previous week at another seminar, and was starting the out/recalls, out/guards on the leg sleeve, but backed off a bit due to the teeth and blood flying everywhere for this one. His style is similar to JM's though.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjQb99Kbtpk

The foundation I have seen for FR is very different from the foundation I've seen in videos for BR, probably due to FR's lack of scoring of the bite. Many FR dogs are taught what I call "bite and endure", get a grip and hold on tight. Technique is huge in FR, but it's more about countering esquives, barrages, scoops, etc then biting in the exact same spot, over and over.


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## Martine Loots

Tim Bartlett said:


> Does anyone know if this dog was titled?? That is a lot of training and control on a puppy that young. Curious to see how the dog turned out.



He's a FR2 now. 

Nice work in the video! Good job from both decoy and owner. Decoy gives a lot of action to the pup without putting him under stress and the owner always is there to support and encourage the pup.
Lot of training for such a young pup indeed but then again, training has to be adjusted to each pup individually and this one is mature enough to do it.


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## Martine Loots

Adam Rawlings said:


> Martine or Richard,
> 
> Just wondering why doing several exersices is to much for a young dog? Just trying to learn thanks.


What I meant was that your pup wasn't ready yet to do so many exercises. For me the grip wasn't stable enough yet. I would have worked on that first before starting other exercises.
But I can understand the decoy, because this was a seminar, so he would have the opportunity to work the pup only a few times and probably he wanted to pass as much information as possible during that short time.

If you look at the puppy training video of the French pup, then they do even more exercises and put more pressure, but that pup has been seeing this kind of work probably since he was 7 weeks old, so he had a lot more experience then your pup. And even then, not many pups mature this fast, so even though you start them early, you still have to adapt to each individual character.
There is no need to go fast with a pup, it's the final result that counts


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I think that not only does the guy in the Sniper video train well, I am sure that is not his first dog from those lines. They just have a better deal over there in many many ways. I am sure they just have seen way more dogs than we will ever get too, and have a method that they use for training all the dogs.

I think it is cool as hell.


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## Martine Loots

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I think that not only does the guy in the Sniper video train well, I am sure that is not his first dog from those lines. They just have a better deal over there in many many ways. I am sure they just have seen way more dogs than we will ever get too, and have a method that they use for training all the dogs.
> 
> I think it is cool as hell.



The guy is Gaëtan Beddelem and he's the president of a FR club. He handles & handled several dogs in the FR competition.

And you're right Jeff. When you know your bloodlines very well and are used to train the dogs, then you perfectly know how to do that, because characteristics always come back. You know how to handle their issues and exploit their qualities and this is a BIG advantage.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

We have none of those advatanges really, we just have a bunch of control freaks who want to have a say in what others do. LOL Not that they are qualified to have a say, they just want one.


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## Adam Rawlings

Martine Loots said:


> What I meant was that your pup wasn't ready yet to do so many exercises. For me the grip wasn't stable enough yet. I would have worked on that first before starting other exercises.
> But I can understand the decoy, because this was a seminar, so he would have the opportunity to work the pup only a few times and probably he wanted to pass as much information as possible during that short time.


Ok gotcha now. The seminar lasted for 6 days so it was a great opportunity to learn and I think JM wanted to see how much potential my dog had. What your saying makes sense, thanks for sharing your insight.

Adam


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## Martine Loots

Kadi Thingvall said:


> *The foundation I have seen for FR is very different from the foundation I've seen in videos for BR*, probably due to FR's lack of scoring of the bite. Many FR dogs are taught what I call "bite and endure", get a grip and hold on tight. Technique is huge in FR, but it's more about countering esquives, barrages, scoops, etc then biting in the exact same spot, over and over.



What I see in the puppy video of Sniper du Vieux Maronnier is almost identical to our foundation training.
They also work with a collar in stead of a harness to guide him to the right spot on the sleeve, they pay a lot of attention to the grip, the owner is always there to encourage the pup and the pup doesn't get the sleeve as a reward but in stead is called out and rewarded with a toy. Exactly the way we do it.

Only thing which is different is the way he calls the pup out with the object guard. He rattles the jerrycan to make him come out and that is something we certainly wouldn't do as in BR this kind of distraction is often done and the dog shouldn't out then.

I don't know if this is typical FR puppy training, but if it is then it's pretty similar to ours for BR.


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## Kadi Thingvall

Martine Loots said:


> I don't know if this is typical FR puppy training, but if it is then it's pretty similar to ours for BR.


I've seen both types of training, so I wouldn't say the Sniper video is atypical. But the JM and Herve videos that were posted are more representative of the training I have seen over the years, from a wide variety of trainers/decoys. Course that's only what I'm seeing here in the US, although I don't believe someone is going to completely change their style of training just because they flew over here and worked a few dogs.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

So, 9 out of 5000 is a wide variety ?


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## Tyree Johnson

who named Junior Mint? i like that name ..... anything special behind that name ... fill a brother in!


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## Carol Boche

Tyree Johnson said:


> who named Junior Mint? i like that name ..... anything special behind that name ... fill a brother in!


Jr Mint (aka Mint, Minty, Mintlette) is Buko's spawn and my female mal Ash(hole)'s, brother.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

His mothers name is Soda PoP. He was originally Buko jr, but that seemed to boring. So he became Jr Mint. He is very MINTY. LOL


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## Chris Michalek

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> His mothers name is Soda PoP. He was originally Buko jr, but that seemed to boring. So he became Jr Mint. He is very MINTY. LOL



gotta give props to jeff for the creative names.


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## Carol Boche

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> His mothers name is Soda PoP. He was originally Buko jr, but that seemed to boring. So he became Jr Mint. He is very MINTY. LOL


But her registered name is even better.....UPCHUCKIE


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## Tyree Johnson

definitely got the names going over there in the middle of nowhere .... send me a list for my next pup!


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Don't take Milk dud or Popcorn. I am thinking a movie theme.


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## Carol Boche

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Don't take Milk dud or Popcorn. I am thinking a movie theme.


The next litter of mine with be the WDF vom Crazy Hound Litter!!!! :razz::razz::razz::razz:


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Wait till I get my new dog, I am going to name him joo joo bee.


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## Tyree Johnson

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Don't take Milk dud or Popcorn. I am thinking a movie theme.



hows OPT .. over priced tickets! 

No? not good enough? lol


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## Jeff Oehlsen

No, that is good. OVER priced TICKets ! ! ! That would work.


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