# Prey drive rewards vs. Play drive rewards in SAR/detection



## Karin Sable (Aug 31, 2014)

FYI I posted this on another forum as well but I prefer to have "working" folks respond rather than general folks... just doesn't always seem there are many people here.. no offense intended. :roll:

So, been thinking about Donn Yarnall's concept of prey drive vs. play/prey drive. A trainer I was recently talking to was saying that tapping into the prey drive will lead to more consistent performance in detection and fewer false positives than play/prey drive. I get the theory, that prey drive would be instinctual and instinct satisfying and in the realm of independence and that play drive is about rank vis a vis the handler thereby too handler focused... handler pleasing rather than satisfying the instinct.

So my reward for the find/refind in SAR has been a Chuck-it squirrel. When Tygo leads me in, I bring out the squirrel and play a rough and tough game of tug and then I'll throw the squirrel, the subject might chase him (he loves to be chased) and then he likes to sit and shred the squirrel (he really does like this... although is a bit expensive) and unfortunately tries to eat it... which of course I do my best to stop. I often will let him carry the squirrel back to his crate. Some of my subjects play tug or have the toy but most are a bit scared of Tygo's play style (although he is great at targeting and rarely hits a hand). And wouldn't this be play drive rather than prey?


I think my reward is both play and prey. So I'm wondering what you folks think about focusing more on the throwing and less on the tug. Allowing him more time to shred.... but being vigilant about the eating part. And if so... how much would you throw the toy... once and let him shred it ? Chase him a bit, throw a bit and then let him shred? ... seems like the "reward" would have much less energy than what I'm doing now if I just throw once. Is that a problem? Is the mix of play and prey that I'm doing now okay?

What are your thoughts about handler focused reward systems with detection dogs? Sort of interesting in the SAR realm because I have so often heard about having the toy with the subject to build subject relationship... but this theory seems like it would not really subscribe to the value of that. 

Why am I thinking about this? I'm getting more scent and frustration alerts. The scent alerts (alerting on weak scent) I can deal with... the frustration alerts (not knowing what to do so jumping on me) I would like to see those go away. 

Thanks to all who might chime in.
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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Karin,

What disciplines are you doing in SAR? Trailing? Airscent? or Cadaver? If doing more than one, do you see this behavior through all disciplines or a specific one?


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Also what breed and age is your dog?


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## Karin Sable (Aug 31, 2014)

Hi Sarah.

So this is my first SAR dog. He is a 2years and 4 months and a dutch shepherd. He is being trained in wilderness air scent. His alert is a jump alert. We were given the go ahead to test for certification and then I started getting these scent alerts and being new, I was not very consistent about reading them or handling them as scent alerts. I'm going to take back frustration alert label. I think it is more accurate to say he is doing this weak alert I think when the scent picture gets confusing and I think at times I have inadvertently cued them.


I have taken a step back and am amping up the support of his true alerts (verbal praise), getting radio'd "touchdowns" and am doing a couple of problems to help me better read how he is in weak scent and contrasting that better with strong scent behavior. I'm also trying to hand the scent alert with "work it out" direction rather than the more specific "show me" command after a real alert to take me into the subject.

I just started thinking that as I take the step back, should I do a small change in the reward structure to tap into this prey drive idea of Yarnall's.

Today I'm in a bit of a whiny baby mood. I'm so close I can taste it and then I slide back down the hill. I'll bounce back after a good nights sleep.

But thank you for any insight.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Glad to see your post. I think you have answered most of your own problems and better yet.....come up with a game plan. 

I made the same mistake with the 'show me' early on. Did pretty much the same thing you did asking the dog to show me when they hadn't actually pinned down the final location. It made him all frantic because and get all active on me much like your dog did. I smoothed out my behavior, watch the body language and grid out if necessary instead of trying to make the dog work it out when he was clearly frustrated. Some people feel this is solving the problem for the dog but not if you do it right. You don't hand the dog the answer but mostly understand that you have scent "here" and the dog - for whatever reason - can't work it to source. It could be the scent source is over his head or the environmental conditions are causing the scent to behave erratically.

One thing I did find out was if the dog gave the body changes but couldn't "show me" then he was fringe alerting or alerting on scent pool and that was my cue to re-evaluate and grid it out.


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## Karin Sable (Aug 31, 2014)

What is your thought on using a reward that emphasizes prey drive vs. play drive?

Some folks around here are using a "rat", rolled up rags (like Yarnall) and when the dog takes them in to subject they throw it and let the dogs chase, shake and shred. That is the reward the way I understand it. That would be pretty quick.

I play a pretty aggressive tug, then throw, allow the chase and then Tygo likes to either be chased by someone or start to destroy the chuck it squirrel. He seems to like all of this. I think the prey drive people... Yarnall, would say the tug is too handler focused (play drive). 

Just wondering if others think a lot about the reward. 

I should add I have a habit of over thinking things. ;-)


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## Karin Sable (Aug 31, 2014)

Ughh... ignore. I'm lame. Just found a very similar thread... I'll repost on that one.


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