# Drive vs Thresholds



## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

I have a bit of a noob question about thresholds as it relates to *prey* drive.

I understand thresholds in defense drive as such:

Dog A very easily goes in to defense and agresses forwardly with no hesitation and can't be backed down.This dog can be described has having a very low threshold for defense.

Dog B is difficult to pressure. Seems like he is never pushed in to defense but on the off occasion that he is he has the same response as dog A.

It could be said that these dogs both have the same level of defense but that Dog A has a much lower threshold. Correct?

Here's my confusion. When most people see a dog that chases anything that moves, will jump out of a window for a ball, is insane towards the decoy they consider this a dog with high prey drive.

Can a dog that has a higher threshold for prey drive. He isn't as crazy about a ball unless you work him up or throw it. He's never been the dog that pounced on the tug as soon as it's removed from your pocket. Can this dog have the same level of prey drive as the previous dog?

Given that the quality of training is the same will the dog with a higher threshold for prey ever have the same intensity for the decoy as the dog with the lower threshold?

If not then what is the difference between threshold and drive level for prey drive?


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Ben Colbert said:


> I have a bit of a noob question about thresholds as it relates to *prey* drive.
> 
> I understand thresholds in defense drive as such:
> 
> ...


I think you should define what those terms mean to YOU first as you will get a more accurate answer.

DRIVE: 

THRESHOLD:


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## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

Oh no!

Not one of these again.

I think if you read my post you'll see that that may be what I'm asking. 

For example I read a post Jeff made (Thread had to do with him doing drive building with his GSD) that he didn't really like his thresholds. How is this different to *you* than saying he doesn't like his drive?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

What is it that you want to know ? Your post is a babbling cluster**** so Jody asked you some questions to clarify just what it is you are trying to figure out.

Responding with more questions is not really helpful now is it ?

So what is it you want to ask, exactly ?


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## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

I thought the question was pretty obvious but here goes take 3.

You described your GSD as having higher thresholds then you like.

Another trainer described his mal as fun to train because he has such low thresholds.

In those contexts could you just as easily use the word drive in place of threhold (your GSD has lower drive than you like and his Mal has a lot of drive so he's fun to train)?


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

I thought thresholds were the terminology we use in this instance to describe a dog going from say standing there into prey.

Some dogs take more stimulation to get into full prey if my little gsd bitch even thinks there is a chance of any action she gos all out instantly she has low thresholds and i like it the most.

I would have to agree though that most dogs i see with high thresholds do tend to have lower prey or toy drive.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Ben Colbert said:


> I thought the question was pretty obvious but here goes take 3.
> 
> You described your GSD as having higher thresholds then you like.
> 
> ...


"Thresholds" seems to be the terminology that now fashionable among the new dog training preachers. 
Us old school trainers use the term "Hi" or "Lo" 
"examples" "Lo Prey Drive/booty" Hi Aggression"
Not so fancy, sometimes we dont even discuss we just know what needs to be done and we"just do it" :lol:


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

In regards to defense, Ben, I like this way of looking at it.

We bring a dog out to work him. Really want him to bite a person in the end. We do a lot of things to accomplish this, but we also want him to bark to be a deterrent. We lower his defense threshold. Work on him getting to bark at a passive subject on command. Doesn't pertain to the biting.

We don't want him to get run off the bite with something environmental or stress, so our goal is to raise his avoidance threshold.

Threshold is a word that can mean a lot. I agree it needs a definition from whoever is using it. This is mine, for defense, involving two things I am trying to accomplish in a session.

Does this help, Ben?


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

Threshold = The point that must be exceeded to begin producing a given effect or result or to elicit a response:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Well there you go. I guess it doesn't mean a lot of things.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I expect it needs to be in the correct context to be relevant.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

todd pavlus said:


> Threshold = The point that must be exceeded to begin producing a given effect or result or to elicit a response:







> I still haven't really figured that out. The definition is all fine and dandy, then you get a dog that catches birds out of the air, has rid the neighborhood of squirrels, and cats and won't chase a tug for shit.
> 
> There goes the idea behind prey drive


Can you exceed the point of some dogs enjoyment chasing catching and killing a squirrel, doing ANYTHING with a tug?


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Dave Colborn said:


> Can you exceed the point of some dogs enjoyment chasing catching and killing a squirrel, doing ANYTHING with a tug?


Can it be duplicated with a tug? No, not with the one I have. I don't expect she's all that unique in that regard.


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## Alison Grubb (Nov 18, 2009)

Dave Colborn said:


> Can you exceed the point of some dogs enjoyment chasing catching and killing a squirrel, doing ANYTHING with a tug?





Nicole Stark said:


> Can it be duplicated with a tug? No, not with the one I have. I don't expect she's all that unique in that regard.


You're not alone.
My mutt has insane prey drive for live prey and is quite happy to catch and kill things. He also gets fired up over an actual decoy.
But give him a tug or a ball and he's all, "meh, I could take it or leave it."

Darn dog puzzles me.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Alison Grubb said:


> You're not alone.
> My mutt has insane prey drive for live prey and is quite happy to catch and kill things. He also gets fired up over an actual decoy.
> But give him a tug or a ball and he's all, "meh, I could take it or leave it."
> 
> Darn dog puzzles me.


It's a bit of an enigma certainly. It's also why I think context is entirely relevant but obviously not exclusively.


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Dogs did not evolve to chase tugs or balls. Expending energy chasing inert non edible items is counter-productive for the ultimate survival of the animal. Exactly what is so strange about that?


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Anna Kasho said:


> Dogs did not evolve to chase tugs or balls. Expending energy chasing inert non edible items is counter-productive for the ultimate survival of the animal. Exactly what is so strange about that?


Nothing. :roll:


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Here ya go....13 pages of fun..... could be a part 1 somewhere too....

http://www.WorkingDogForum.com/vBulletin/f30/threshold-pt-2-a-13900/


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

I think too many people class play drive as prey drive.


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## Alison Grubb (Nov 18, 2009)

Anna Kasho said:


> Dogs did not evolve to chase tugs or balls. Expending energy chasing inert non edible items is counter-productive for the ultimate survival of the animal. Exactly what is so strange about that?


Didn't say it was strange.
But he puzzles me in training at times.
The other boys who are nuts over a tug or a ball as soon as they even think I have one are much easier to work with. I've gotta be more creative with the mutt.

Even if it is, as you say, counterproductive to survival the drive/desire for a ball or tug is a big advantage when it comes to training.


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

It just makes sense to think that they are hardwired to catch prey and eat it. We (people) selectively altered the behavior and removed parts of it, and separated it from eating, and made them generalise it to other useless objects.

Not saying it's good/bad, just that I'd expect the hardwired stuff to be there stronger than the more recently selected for stuff. Everyone says how the dog's drive for critters/decoy/sheep trumps whatever toy. If I could use a live-rat-on-a-string instead of ball-on-a-string my pittieX would be as enthusiastic about her reward as my crackhead mal... 

And back to thresholds... Which I think means how much stimulation is required to elicit a behavior or cause a change in behavior...:-k


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

definitions do apply when you are trying to explain canine behaviors and many of the same terms have never been universally agreed upon. use the same terms with seat of the pants trainers and the differences will be even greater depending on how long they've been at it

analysis might help but it all boils down to "working with what you got", which means develop what you can to get the most out of the dog regardless of what three different people have explained differently when they "evaluated" the dog.....imo, the "older the school", the more quickly they give up and throw a label on it as a justification....same basic attitude as harley riders .....it's the old...."If i have to explain it........never mind" comeback 

we train domestic dogs to do exactly the opposite of what they would do in almost any real world canine environment......just stop for two seconds and consider flight/fight instinct and you will see how true it is. nothing made this more clearer to me than when i worked with a dingo hybrid. "defensive drive" is a waste of energy and just plain stoopid to a wild canine's lemon brain". domestic dogs are about the same size, so i have a hard time understanding how it can be selectively bred for, altho most working dog breeders will obviously not agree with me 

anthropomorphic often applies to hard core working dog trainers too; they just use different definitions of the word


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

Anna Kasho said:


> Dogs did not evolve to chase tugs or balls. Expending energy chasing inert non edible items is counter-productive for the ultimate survival of the animal.


Especially if said ball , is thrown in front of a moving car.


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## Jerry Cudahy (Feb 18, 2010)

Way to easy to explain Drive and Threshold and its relationship.

But I am going to take it away from dogs and explain it with Deer as the analogy.

Deer once a year enter the period called the Rut. The rut is when the females are able to attrack Bucks.

Thing is there is always many Bucks who want to date the doe.

These multiple Bucks (males) are now in DRIVE to breed.

But the doe is not a slut, she only wants one big boy. It is not a gang bang.

The bucks now in order to breed this female must define which buck has what it takes to breed Bambi.

In order to rank as the dude of the day. The bucks fight. Man do they ever fight.

When the fight is over, the Buck with the higher threshold gets the Babe.

The weaker buck has a lower threshold and does not get the lady.

The weaker Buck has to wait his turn for another female and or more likely another Rut season in the future.

Another real fact. Other bucks from the surrounding area will hear these fighting Bucks.

Again drive attracts these Bucks to come running to not witness the fight but to perhaps court the female who is being fought over.

Of these new suitors who arrive to get into the action.

Most will simply leave the female alone.

Because they have already in the past been beaten up by the Dominent Male. They have low threashold and know it. 

They back off due to low threashold.

Get it


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

so is that the describing the threshold to initiate? or the threshold to quit?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Ben Colbert said:


> I have a bit of a noob question about thresholds as it relates to *prey* drive.
> 
> I understand thresholds in defense drive as such:
> 
> ...



If you are gonna break it down like you want to....have to get a bunch of variables to really over explain it.... you already used "LEVEL" and "Intensity", does "level" mean "intensity" to you, or is level something more complicated? then you end it with a question on threshold and drive "LEVEL".

IF you wan to look at prey drive, as in a TRAINING sense, not the chase kill eat sense....and overexplain it..there are a lot of variables to analyze..LOL .I think you have to look at:

initial (low end/beginning) threshold
intenstity of the drive
duration of the drive
environmental soundness
frustration
nerve 
character 
fight "competition" drive...
defense behavior threshold

If attempting to muddy up the waters and try to break everything down, the variables are all separate.

intial engagement/low end/ beginning threshold 
is separate from intensity 
which is separate from duration
with everything else adding in the mix...

Level? who knows...  

simple answer to your complicated question in my way of looking at it is.

"prey drive" has a low end engagement threshold, a triggering threshold....and alot of other things determine what you might call intensity or "level" or whatever...


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## Jerry Cudahy (Feb 18, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> so is that the describing the threshold to initiate? or the threshold to quit?


To Quit or Win.

It is a Natural Law of Life.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Not anything to do with thresholds Jerry. Not even close. Mucked up the water even worse.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Forty years of training...alot to say but difficult to understand...maybe..a little video of your work could clear the water for us Mr Jerry.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

If the question is about dogs and you're sofaking knowledgeable and experienced with dogs..Why do you have to make it about deer ??




Jerry Cudahy said:


> Way to easy to explain Drive and Threshold and its relationship.
> 
> But I am going to take it away from dogs and explain it with Deer as the analogy.
> 
> ...


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## Jerry Cudahy (Feb 18, 2010)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> If the question is about dogs and you're sofaking knowledgeable and experienced with dogs..Why do you have to make it about deer ??


 

The buck that gets layed has the high threshold. Confident in it's ability to head the herd.

The bucks who backed away and did not get involved including the defeated buck have the lower threshold.
The low threshold compelled the weaker animal to make an error in judgement in what it could accomplish. The younger Bucks who came running apon hearing antlers locked in war were in drive to breed but their conditioned reponse to not engage the dominent buck is a low threshold fear reaction of past stim from being beaten up.

Thresholds are not singular in direction. It can go forward or backwards.

As I said originaly, this was an analogy.

Sorry no one understood that part of my anolgy.

Too many people read wrong into behaviour that determine a shift in a dogs action/reaction.

Thresholds are based on experience in a given situation combined with nerve stability.

The nerve bucket fear biter has a low threshold. Error waiting to happen.

The solid nerved dog has geneticaly a higher threshold. Although can be altered lower for our working dogs by correct human intervention. Ex Commanding a dog to attack a static target and the dog reacts with serious intention without bad guy stimulation. Conditioned response rather than a reacted response.

A very good example of incorrect low threshold is the recent GSD that attacked three people outside a store here north of Toronto. The dog read the wrong stimulation. These people were not trying to antagonize the dog but the dog thought differently and went into rage and hurt everyone. ( btw, this owner was criminaly charged today and the dog was put down a week or so ago)

Humans as well have developed thresholds in interaction with other humans.

Back to the Bucks and my analogy to dogs.

I am a deer hunter. I want the high threshold confident Dominent Bucks propagating the next generation of deer. Just as I want dominent high threshold dogs in the breeding pool.

I also brought up the Laws of Nature.

High Threshold in our needs with dogs and my analogy of the Bucks validates the winner.
.
Low Threshold the loser. Prone to making a mistake in judgement.

I hope I didn,t get any mud in all your water.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Thresholds are based on experience in a given situation combined with nerve stability.

Different definitions then.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Jerry Cudahy said:


> The buck that gets layed has the high threshold. Confident in it's ability to head the herd.
> 
> The bucks who backed away and did not get involved including the defeated buck have the lower threshold.
> The low threshold compelled the weaker animal to make an error in judgement in what it could accomplish. The younger Bucks who came running apon hearing antlers locked in war were in drive to breed but their conditioned reponse to not engage the dominent buck is a low threshold fear reaction of past stim from being beaten up.
> ...


What do you hunt with that requires a high threshold buck to sire your prey ??


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Anna Kasho said:


> And back to thresholds... Which I think means how much stimulation is required to elicit a behavior or cause a change in behavior...:-k


Thats my definition


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