# Showing my dog he can win



## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

Been working on my dogs confidence. Last couple weeks I've set up some scenarios where we go to a strange field, with a strange decoy, surprise him with situation and he has to handle it, he wins, I put him in the truck and go home. Got a chance to video the one yesterday. Everything was set up by phone, so he didn't see a decoy milling around, got there, let him take a leak, played for a brief second, then went for a walk. Didn't want him thinking "bitework". Hell I think he thought tracking because he was pulling right towards the camera guy who was hiding behind a big tree. 

I'd appreciate any ideas or thoughts. Anything I can try to teach him he can win everytime will be helpful. 

http://youtu.be/JygVvI2FmSs


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Brett Bowen said:


> Been working on my dogs confidence. Last couple weeks I've set up some scenarios where we go to a strange field, with a strange decoy, surprise him with situation and he has to handle it, he wins, I put him in the truck and go home. Got a chance to video the one yesterday. Everything was set up by phone, so he didn't see a decoy milling around, got there, let him take a leak, played for a brief second, then went for a walk. Didn't want him thinking "bitework". Hell I think he thought tracking because he was pulling right towards the camera guy who was hiding behind a big tree.
> 
> I'd appreciate any ideas or thoughts. Anything I can try to teach him he can win everytime will be helpful.
> 
> http://youtu.be/JygVvI2FmSs


what do you mean by win? win the fight for the prey item? or something else?


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

Joby Becker said:


> what do you mean by win? win the fight for the prey item? or something else?


I just want him to know that he can handle whatever comes up, so that he can translate that to the trial field. I would have liked to not slipped the jacket, out him, and make sure he watched the decoy run off the field, but it was suggested the jacket get slipped.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Brett Bowen said:


> I just want him to know that he can handle whatever comes up, so that he can translate that to the trial field. I would have liked to not slipped the jacket, out him, and make sure he watched the decoy run off the field, but it was suggested the jacket get slipped.


have little sport experience here in traditional sense, but know bite stuff fairly well.

what is the dogs issue, same as before, in the PM's? letting a dog win can mean different things, depending on his mindset and what your goals are with the dog...


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

Joby Becker said:


> have little sport experience here in traditional sense, but know bite stuff fairly well.
> 
> what is the dogs issue, same as before, in the PM's? letting a dog win can mean different things, depending on his mindset and what your goals are with the dog...


Yes. Thinking a lot of it was maturity based and he's not a super strong dog nerve wise so a bad combination to put him on the field when I did. 

Trying to show him that even if it's a strange field, strange decoy, it's no big deal. Guess that's what I'm going for by "winning". Not sure how else I can explain it. ](*,)


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

do you know why it was recommended to slip the jacket? just curious.

is he showing lack of confidence? 

It might never be what you want, but you can help it..really hard to say anything over the net, cause all dogs are different, unless someone is in front of your dog, and working it, it is hard to say, and also knowing all the past of the dog can help....

that being said.

if you are gonna slip the jacket, I would have the guy come up and challenge the dog for the jacket and once the dog showed good aggression, I would have the dog chase the guy off the field back to his car...maybe have him stop and challenge the dog once, and when the dog shows the correct response have the guy run to his car and drive off..or into the woods or whatever..not to be seen again.

if not slipping it, then I would not necessarily out the dog, I might have the decoy end up in a submissive position and lift the dog off, have him limp back in holding his arm like he is hurt, and let him get another bite..ending a number of ways, again chasing the guy off the field, not just letting him watch the guy run off...

it is not really that cut and dry...reading the dog and knowing what is going on with him is kinda important..

in your scenario, I would say the dog won... We could not see what the decoy guy was doing initially, because it is off screen, but probably not much in the way of pressure, and there was little to no pressure from the guy to the dog in the fight...my speakers are really low so couldnt hear it much...but having the guy really act like he is getting hurt can be helpful in some cases..but is more effective if the timing is good, and done when the dog does something good (the counter, whatever that is to you and your dog)...

in order to get him to the point where he thinks he can win whatever whereever, if he does not think that already, can be trickier...he probably needs more exposure to more pressure, defense if you like to call it that..you can do stuff at night, try some fence work in a civil fashion..do some hidden sleeve stuff, with guy acting like his arm is broken, muzzle work...whatever it is that you want to do...

really really hard to say, to me it looks like the dog thought he won that round, but I cant really say it will help him think he can win in the next round, depending on what happens.

hard to say, if the dog is lacking confidence, it needs to be built, by pushing him, stressing him, and then letting him win, incrementally over time...possibly through pressure from the man, if he has conflicts with pressure from the man, pressure can be added in other ways, environmentally...

really really hard to say..guys that work dogs for this, kinda have a real feel for it, reading the dog, and giving him what he needs...

how have you been working on his confidence, since the meltdown at that event?
did you try any of the things that I suggested in the PM's about exposing him to defense? or the environmental stuff?


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Thanks for posting, Brett. That is nearly identical to what my dog would do as I described in the previous thread with swinging away from me when I got close to him. Doing a lot of the "good boy, attaboy, get him, get him!" and patting him on his side instead of stroking him did a lot to help this. I haven't noticed him do it at all in the last 4-5 sessions.


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

Thanks Joby. When I was drafting this thread I was hoping you'd respond. You've given good suggestions to a lot of people on here. 

To answer some of that, we've put some "defense" on him, fence work, stress him -> give him a victory. 

If you remember our PM exchange, he just flat out didn't engage that first trial, so the fact that he engaged and countered a couple times with this strange decoy on a strange field (and his grip wasn't total crap) is definitely a step in the right direction. 

You're right he's never going to be super awesome, just aiming for respectable at this point. Next couple times we do these type things with new decoy / new field I'm going to incrementally amp the pressure up. Give him the best chances.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Thanks for posting, Brett. That is nearly identical to what my dog would do as I described in the previous thread with swinging away from me when I got close to him. Doing a lot of the "good boy, attaboy, get him, get him!" and patting him on his side instead of stroking him did a lot to help this. I haven't noticed him do it at all in the last 4-5 sessions.


here we go again...LOL..

did your dog do this Maren...how would you fix this? with an "attaboy"? and patting??? share with us...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KV4PK1AnB9k&list=UUEPHoisoUrnngaRQMMFYHOw&index=8&feature=plcp


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Dude, Joby...chill the eff out. Brett and I have also talked over PM about the issues with both our dogs. It was addressed to him, not you. Has he posted that video on here before? That's not real cool to throw him under the bus by posting that video if he hasn't...just saying.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Dude, Joby...chill the eff out. Brett and I have also talked over PM about the issues with both our dogs. It was addressed to him, not you. Has he posted that video on here before? That's not real cool to throw him under the bus by posting that video if he hasn't...just saying.


it is on his public youtube account Maren, it is not a private video...
If anyone is to try to offer any kind of suggestions, this video is kind of important for people to see. An attaboy and a pat is not gonna help a dog recover from that kind of incident..like you seem to imply...just saying.

sorry Brett for posting it, if it was private...but if anyone is gonna offer any kind of advice, this is valuable historical evidence of what went on with him, no harm meant by it...

Being a cop, I hope your skin is thicker than you get credit for..


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Brett ...what trial was the second video from (the one the Joby posted)? I remember you had mentioned doing PSA, but that clearly wasn't a PSA trial. Just curious ...and the dog looks much better in the newest video you posted than in the one from the trial. He was clearly confused and didn't seem to know exactly what he was supposed to be doing. 

How old is he and was he at the trial? You mentioned his maturity level was an issue. I certainly agree with that and also think the performance at the trial had a lot to do with lack of preparation (you just not knowing exactly what he needs to see to be willing to engage). He doesn't run away and totally nerve out and his bites improve once he knows what to expect. He may lack confidence, but guessing from the improvement he shows in the latest videos, he seems like a dog that will gain confidence once he sees different things a couple times and realizes he can bite through it. Of course, it's ideal to have a dog that's reckless and does not hesitate to engage regardless of what he sees in front of him, but you have chosen to train the dog you have and I think you are doing a good job of addressing his issues.

Also, I think Joby is right ...it's good to see what you are trying to help him recover from. I watched your video first and certainly didn't realize how bad the performance at the trial was. What are your future goals with him? Are you still planning on doing PSA? If so, I can give you some suggestions as to what to show him to prepare. I am not familiar with the sport shown in the video so I can't help you there.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

That video was at the k-9 Showdown at Cowtown, 

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f37/k-9-showdown-cowtown-21779/

a previous show along the lines of "May-Hem"@ Billy Bob's 

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f16/event-may-hem-billy-bobs-texas-ft-worth-23520/

It was a PP event, with various scenarios.. I hate to see dogs put in these events when they are not ready..it happens a lot though...but even though it looks bad on video, like you said, it could be a lot worse..

His dog was not prepared well for it. didnt get enough pats on the side and "attaboys".....:roll:


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> His dog was not prepared well for it. didnt get enough pats on the side and "attaboys".....:roll:


Why do I respond when I'm in a bad mood... #-o

Joby, go back and read that thread if you want. My dog and his dog have some similar issues which I have discussed with Brett. I suspect caused by different things, but manifesting similarly. It was Daniel L. who suggests the team building stuff with my dog (fighting the decoy together, lots and lots of verbal encouragement, patting him instead of stroking) and it has worked actually _really_ well. So thanks for the suggestions, Daniel. :smile:

Since you posted the video, watch it closely. When does the dog fail to engage or come right off: when there is a lot of forward pressure. When does the dog actually hang on the bite: during the flee. How much pressure is there on an escape or flee bite? Not very much, so he hangs on okay. And what does the dog do when the decoy looks around at him? He comes off. He obviously doesn't do great with forward pressure in video. If he didn't engage with pressure, why would you think adding MORE pressure would be good to start off with? Can't win if he won't engage.

Based on the video and seeing some similar (though not identical) traits in my own dog, to build this dog back up, this suggests to me to start the dog for a good half dozen or more sessions from the ground up: prey, prey, prey, lots of slips, no stick, no pressure or "defensive" anything. Keep it fun, keep it light, work the grips (on a tug or wedge again to start worked well), let the dog win and let the dog trust the handler again. Zero reason to add more pressure before you get the foundation and confidence back up. Spending a couple months on this will pay off. THEN you can start adding that other stuff back in. This is exactly what we're doing with my dog and he's doing much better. :smile:


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

agree with Joby .... even tho we are not always on the same page, we're usually in the same chapter 
just one quick point
it AIN'T about "winning" in my mind, because that implies there is something to lose ... i never think that way with a dog cause they don't think that way either, and people tend to get too hung up over :
winning a sleeve, winning anything, etc

KISS ... make it FUN, and than add some pressure while KEEPING it fun.....AMEN
that maintains drive and that helps boost confidence

if it were me, i'd out the dog a lot too, and not just give him shit to bite and run off with...(cause i'm not a "possession is confidence" kinda guy).... to me, outing DOESN'T mean losing and should never lower confidence or drive 

i do have a few comments to kick around that might help expand on that park scenario that may help the dog...if you're interested lemme know but can't get back to u quick ,,, will be off and out for a few days

nice dog...


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

My first thought was wondering if the handler avoidance was conflict or nerve. Second video answered that question. 

I have never understood why people equate slipping the equipment with "winning"? That concept works for young puppies not adult dogs. "winning" lies with the decoy not the equipment when it comes to adult dogs. 

Slipping equipment and letting a dog unload after scenario that induces stress is one thing. Running away with the equipment is not "winning".

Not much more advice I can give than that.


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Brett ...what trial was the second video from (the one the Joby posted)? I remember you had mentioned doing PSA, but that clearly wasn't a PSA trial. Just curious ...and the dog looks much better in the newest video you posted than in the one from the trial. He was clearly confused and didn't seem to know exactly what he was supposed to be doing.
> 
> How old is he and was he at the trial? You mentioned his maturity level was an issue. I certainly agree with that and also think the performance at the trial had a lot to do with lack of preparation (you just not knowing exactly what he needs to see to be willing to engage). He doesn't run away and totally nerve out and his bites improve once he knows what to expect. He may lack confidence, but guessing from the improvement he shows in the latest videos, he seems like a dog that will gain confidence once he sees different things a couple times and realizes he can bite through it. Of course, it's ideal to have a dog that's reckless and does not hesitate to engage regardless of what he sees in front of him, but you have chosen to train the dog you have and I think you are doing a good job of addressing his issues.
> 
> Also, I think Joby is right ...it's good to see what you are trying to help him recover from. I watched your video first and certainly didn't realize how bad the performance at the trial was. What are your future goals with him? Are you still planning on doing PSA? If so, I can give you some suggestions as to what to show him to prepare. I am not familiar with the sport shown in the video so I can't help you there.


Sheesh, I go to sleep and I now I gotta catch up with everyone. 

Joby, you're right, I have pretty thick skin so no harm in my book, but Maren I do appreciate you sticking up for me. =D> Besides, he is what he is, he did what he did, no sense in hiding it or sugar coating what happened. I wouldn't have posted anything at all had I not been open to getting slammed. Yeah I could go get a different dog all together, but I'm a believer in working with what you got and he's not a total crapper, maybe a half crapper. and I think my wife would choose him over me anyway, she's has a big soft spot for him, but that's a whole other set of issues. ](*,)

Ariel, nope it was a PPD tourney that some of us from the club entered. There was a miscommunication with me and the trainer about his age at the time, he was 15-16 months. Me not knowing any better and my trainer thinking he was older we put him in. I think we got used to him whopping up on everyone on the training field and lost track that he was just a young punk. Yes any suggestions you can give Ariel would be helpful the plan is still do PSA and trial sometime this year. I don't want to imply that I'm not happy with my training at my club, because I am. I think we need to break out of the mold a little bit and show him different things that we just don't have the time or manpower to do at the club. He's so used to "Okay going to do a courage test, a surprise attack, maybe a passive bite, maybe a car jack, I'm going to out and guard, all on the same guys I've seen and defeated time and time again." So the idea has been strange field, strange decoy, he kick's some butt, and we go home. 

He's just over 2 now and we train twice a week with 2 bitework sessions a training day, so we've done a lot to help bring him along since that horrific event. 

I appreciate the PM's with suggestions and encouragement, keep them coming, I'm willing to try consider anything that might help.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Brett not sure if u read jacks latest thread, some innovative stuff involving a frying pan a prong, an old fat german and a blind.

You asked for suggestions??


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Brett not sure if u read jacks latest thread, some innovative stuff involving a frying pan a prong, an old fat german and a blind.
> 
> You asked for suggestions??


dang it, why didn't I think of that!?


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Why do I respond when I'm in a bad mood... #-o
> 
> Joby, go back and read that thread if you want. My dog and his dog have some similar issues which I have discussed with Brett. I suspect caused by different things, but manifesting similarly. It was Daniel L. who suggests the team building stuff with my dog (fighting the decoy together, lots and lots of verbal encouragement, patting him instead of stroking) and it has worked actually _really_ well. So thanks for the suggestions, Daniel.:smile:


 
If the dog needs all that, perhaps he shouldnt be doing bitework in the first place.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Brett Bowen said:


> Sheesh, I go to sleep and I now I gotta catch up with everyone.
> 
> Joby, you're right, I have pretty thick skin so no harm in my book, but Maren I do appreciate you sticking up for me. =D> Besides, he is what he is, he did what he did, no sense in hiding it or sugar coating what happened. I wouldn't have posted anything at all had I not been open to getting slammed. Yeah I could go get a different dog all together, but I'm a believer in working with what you got and he's not a total crapper, maybe a half crapper. and I think my wife would choose him over me anyway, she's has a big soft spot for him, but that's a whole other set of issues.


Not slamming you Brett, or your dog, hope you know that...the dog was tossed into an a situation that he was not prepared for, that is all... I have been to alot of those PP events, worked alot of those events, and seen the same thing happen many many times. It is not a rare occurance.. I have also seen many of the same dogs overcome that type of thing, I commend you for sticking with the dog for what you want to do with him, and am looking forward to seeing you get the titles with him in the future that you are seeking.

With this dog I have now, I tossed her in a PP competition, when she was younger, and not ready, and my decoy talked me into it, even though I knew it was not gonna go well.... I took 11th place out o 12 entries. almost last place...so I know how it feels, kind of embarrassing at the time. still gets talked about locally around here, gotta own it... Even though we did terrible for different reasons, mine was NOT outing, the outcome was the same for us humans anyhow...not a good feeling...


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Tiago Fontes said:


> If the dog needs all that, perhaps he shouldnt be doing bitework in the first place.


And you know not of which you speak. But that whole story was covered another thread. Don't want to derail Brett's.


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

Joby Becker said:


> Not slamming you Brett, or your dog, hope you know that...the dog was tossed into an a situation that he was not prepared for, that is all... I have been to alot of those PP events, worked alot of those events, and seen the same thing happen many many times. It is not a rare occurance.. I have also seen many of the same dogs overcome that type of thing, I commend you for sticking with the dog for what you want to do with him, and am looking forward to seeing you get the titles with him in the future that you are seeking.
> 
> With this dog I have now, I tossed her in a PP competition, when she was younger, and not ready, and my decoy talked me into it, even though I knew it was not gonna go well.... I took 11th place out o 12 entries. almost last place...so I know how it feels, kind of embarrassing at the time. still gets talked about locally around here, gotta own it... Even though we did terrible for different reasons, mine was NOT outing, the outcome was the same for us humans anyhow...not a good feeling...


I know you aren't slamming. Just saying I wouldn't have put anything out there if I wasn't willing to take the constructive comments as well as the destructive. Plus I know others would benefit from this discussion as these situations have happened before and they'll happen again. 

Like I said, I'm a believer in working with what you have, not saying I haven't had my days of total frustration and wanting to give up. I know working with him has made me a better trainer. I think a less than average trainer can look good with a great dog. But working through issues with a dog makes you better and when you get that great dog you really turn heads.


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

Brett I hope you didn't think my post was critical or sarcastic. I was trying to give you some constructive critique from a training decoy perspective.

In the trial video the dig seemed extremely stressed even in the OB. If there is not a handler conflict or something in your relationship causing this and he was that stressed just being there. I would consider if a trial career is the route to go. 

You sound like you have a good attitude about your dog and accept him for what he is. You are right training a dog with issues makes you a better trainer.


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> And you know not of which you speak. But that whole story was covered another thread. Don't want to derail Brett's.


 
I give props to Brett for posting what he did. Takes a real man and wish him best of luck with his dog. 

Your advice on the other hand, I have a problem with... If a dog needs to be encouraged as you describe, what makes you so certain I "know not of which" I speak and you know of which you speak? Could you please explain how your dog is a strong individual and therefore suitable for manwork? 


I believe in dogs who want to bring it to the decoy, with little stimulation...they just bring it... To me, that is dog which belongs in manwork. 


Regards


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

Nope no offense taken at all. And you are right the troubles started before the decoy even came out. Lots of things I think contributed, he was young, my inexperience, the atmosphere was circus like. There was a lot more going on than what's on the video, there was a whole pet fair going on behind the camera. He also just wasn't himself that day before we even got to the field, he was probably picking up on my nerves about the whole thing, but I do remember thinking as I'm loading the truck that "things aren't going to go well if you are acting like this." Who knows, not making excuses, he did what he did, and I watched that old video again he is a different dog now, just trying to move forward. 

Good point on a trial atmosphere though, might be worthwhile to try and simulate a trial environment as best I can. 

I am going to try and get some training video tonight and post it as well, maybe seeing a normal training day might give someone some ideas to try.....or at the very least just some entertainment. 



Chris Keister said:


> Brett I hope you didn't think my post was critical or sarcastic. I was trying to give you some constructive critique from a training decoy perspective.
> 
> In the trial video the dig seemed extremely stressed even in the OB. If there is not a handler conflict or something in your relationship causing this and he was that stressed just being there. I would consider if a trial career is the route to go.
> 
> You sound like you have a good attitude about your dog and accept him for what he is. You are right training a dog with issues makes you a better trainer.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Tiago Fontes said:


> I give props to Brett for posting what he did. Takes a real man and wish him best of luck with his dog.
> 
> Your advice on the other hand, I have a problem with... If a dog needs to be encouraged as you describe, what makes you so certain I "know not of which" I speak and you know of which you speak? Could you please explain how your dog is a strong individual and therefore suitable for manwork?
> 
> ...


Read this thread, it explains the situation. My dog on the bite in Justin's first video could have been mine with the swinging away from the handler from stress 3 months ago.

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f13/too-worried-about-handlers-presence-bite-23202/

Abridged version: my dog (whose parents both titled or competed at French Ring 3) had no bitework at all until he was 3 years old because the Sch club I got him for folded right around that same time. So no foundation. Started with good decoy work in PSA at age 3 for a number of months, then both the good decoys moved away. Then we were stuck with either inconsistent or poor decoy work for nearly a year and a half. Had a lot of similarities to Brett's dog: conflict with the decoy (in my dog's case, due to previous bad work), conflict with me, and so on. Finally within the last two months, got another decoy and used the suggestions Daniel L. and others described. No more swinging away from me, comfortable with me on the bite, comfortable with the decoy, much less growling and and no stress whining. He'll never be as good as if I could have started him properly as a pup, but he's looking significantly better now. We have been slowly adding in more pressure and he's done well (props to Aaron R. for making significant improvement in just 5-6 sessions).


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Since you posted the video, watch it closely. When does the dog fail to engage or come right off: when there is a lot of forward pressure. When does the dog actually hang on the bite: during the flee. How much pressure is there on an escape or flee bite? Not very much, so he hangs on okay. And what does the dog do when the decoy looks around at him? He comes off. He obviously doesn't do great with forward pressure in video. If he didn't engage with pressure, why would you think adding MORE pressure would be good to start off with? Can't win if he won't engage.
> 
> Based on the video and seeing some similar (though not identical) traits in my own dog, to build this dog back up, this suggests to me to start the dog for a good half dozen or more sessions from the ground up: prey, prey, prey, lots of slips, no stick, no pressure or "defensive" anything. Keep it fun, keep it light, work the grips (on a tug or wedge again to start worked well), let the dog win and let the dog trust the handler again. Zero reason to add more pressure before you get the foundation and confidence back up. Spending a couple months on this will pay off. THEN you can start adding that other stuff back in. This is exactly what we're doing with my dog and he's doing much better. :smile:


I "think" it might work, because it does work. 

I can agree with you on the working together more with the dog..and gaining more confidence in the trust of the handler department, I would personally do that with agility and obstacle stuff..works wonders in that department...I can also agree in the co-operation of the handler in the bitework, the handler taking a very active and supporting role in helping his dog fight and win...but I would not do it in simple easy prey work..

I just cant agree that starting over at the beinning in all easy prey is gonna fix the problems that manifested in that video..if it does, you are not talking about a couple of months, you are talking about a few years, which can all go right back out the window, if the dog sees something that causes him to fall back, like too much pressure..pressure like what happens in PSA...

The problem is the dog faced something he was not ready for in regards to the "agitator"...which is a separate thing from the other issues going on with the handler...the guy got in his head...once that happens, the dog needs to be taught that he can overcome that, because it will happen again...it is not a prey game anymore for this dog, and in my opinion it never will be again if something similar happens. That went far beyond just a stressful dog growling on a bite or swinging away from the handler...

In reality it might be better if the man inside the suit is invisible to the dog, depending on what you want to do with him. The problem is that this dog has taken notice of the man inside the suit, and had a bad experience when that happened, and that does not just dissappear with prey training. It is a part of the dog now...like it or not...

taking him back to easy prey will not fix that in my opinion, he saw the man, took him as a threat, he reacted to it that way because he was not prepared for it. Prey work alone with this type of dog will not help him confront what rattled him...what happened was not intended to be prey work to the dog. 

how does doing back to a wedge or tug, help the dog confront a guy that startles or stresses him with the forward pressure? he is not afraid to confront the suit, he is afraid to confront the man that is applying the forward pressure, that is inside the suit. 

I think, getting him to feel like he can overcome and be successful when put in the stressful situations, to work through that fear and overcome it is the route to go, because he will be put into those stressful situations again...and if he is not prepared it will happen all over again.

this is not a beginner dog with just a little training that was done wrong...it is a dog that has alot of work into him, lots of prey work, with guys he trusts and is comfortable with...and less work that will prepare him for things that cause him to NOT be in prey mode...by guys that are out of his comfort zone..with some dogs, in training and trialing, the dog is never out of his comfort zone, the problems gonna occur, when he IS out of his comfort zone, and was not taught that he can overcome it...

I know you have been in PSA and been to trials and all of that, but here is just one video I found of a PSA trial...watch it, and tell me if the man issues are not dealt with, how will the dog will ever be able to perform under this kind of pressure? 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JausvGeb-Y

anyhow the guy asked for suggestions.. I gave him some...based on many many years of working with protection dogs, many of which were not the greatest dogs. Dogs just like yours and Brett's. Lets face it, these dogs are not like a strong Van Leeuwen dog, or dogs that Mike S. has, or other really powerful super solid dogs, that think they own the man..they have their reservations, however that happened, and that will always stick with them....that is the most important thing here to me, what happened with that first guy in that video, all the other stuff is important as well. but that will make a lasting impression that the dog will carry with him, in my opinion...

The dog has seen the threat and the man behind it, and it got to him...he is not gonna just slip back into prey mode forever, he needs the confidence in the fight, which is gonna call for other parts of the package.. no matter how much easy prey work you do with him.....in an ideal world that setback would not have happened, but it did...so in my opinion he needs to be able to deal with that part of it..

anyhow it is a very tricky thing to work dogs like this, I hope he can find the help he needs...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

out of curiosity Maren...

How many dogs have you owned that were trained in bitework? 

How many times have you been in a bitesuit or out of one, being the "decoy", actively training dogs that have these types of issues?


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

Joby Becker said:


> I think, getting him to feel like he can overcome and be successful when put in the stressful situations, to work through that fear and overcome it is the route to go, because he will be put into those stressful situations again...and if he is not prepared it will happen all over again.
> 
> this is not a beginner dog with just a little training that was done wrong...it is a dog that has alot of work into him, lots of prey work, with guys he trusts and is comfortable with...and less work that will prepare him for things that cause him to NOT be in prey mode...by guys that are out of his comfort zone..with some dogs, in training and trialing, the dog is never out of his comfort zone, the problems gonna occur, when he IS out of his comfort zone, and was not taught that he can overcome it...


I can tell you a lot of that has happened. We've taken him out of his comfort zone quite a bit with decoy's he knows. These scenarios are part of it with a decoy he doesn't know just with the pressure dialed down so he can be successful. (learned already not to rush things) My plan is to slowly amp the pressure next couple of times he sees someone new. Thinking a 30-40 yard courage test PDC style might be next. Think that might tell a lot of where he is at.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Brett Bowen said:


> I can tell you a lot of that has happened. We've taken him out of his comfort zone quite a bit with decoy's he knows. These scenarios are part of it with a decoy he doesn't know just with the pressure dialed down so he can be successful. (learned already not to rush things) My plan is to slowly amp the pressure next couple of times he sees someone new. Thinking a 30-40 yard courage test PDC style might be next. Think that might tell a lot of where he is at.


good, sounds like you are on the right track...

might want to think about having someone else hold the dog for the courage test attempt, or have him in a down, and have you be close by the decoy when it happens, just tossing that out there as a possible idea, in case something goes awry, you can be right there to lend a hand...


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> out of curiosity Maren...
> 
> How many dogs have you owned that were trained in bitework?
> 
> How many times have you been in a bitesuit or out of one, being the "decoy", actively training dogs that have these types of issues?


One dog previously (just foundations stuff in Schutzhund), my dog currently who has been doing PSA 2 years, and my pup. I don't call myself a decoy, but I fairly regularly catch just about all the dogs in our small club when we can't have our regular decoy out, since he lives 3 hours from where we train. My dog in the club is the only one with these issues. I have been to like 4-5 PSA trials (probably same number of Schutzhund trials) and 2 decoy camps to audit them. I don't sit around and gossip either. I am usually filming/taking photos or watching and listening closely as there is much to be learned.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

What I am basically suggesting is slow but steady counterconditioning/desensitization. What you are suggesting is basically flooding. I feel there is a lack of reading comprehension, but:



Maren Bell Jones said:


> ...this suggests to me to start the dog for a good half dozen or more sessions from the ground up: prey, prey, prey, lots of slips, no stick, no pressure or "defensive" anything. Keep it fun, keep it light, work the grips (on a tug or wedge again to start worked well), let the dog win and let the dog trust the handler again. Zero reason to add more pressure before you get the foundation and confidence back up. Spending a couple months on this will pay off. *THEN you can start adding that other stuff back in.*


You very slowly add the pressure like you'd see in a trial back in one piece at a time until you get the correct cumulative picture and the dog is confident. As an illustration, if a dog is struggling with the pressure in the PDC courage test (fast walk with padded stick), why would you suggest putting the dog under MORE pressure by making him doing the equivalent of the PSA 1 courage test (at a run with accessories and clatter stick) and basically hoping he engages and learns. That makes zero sense. Because that's basically what you are suggesting. :-k


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> What I am basically suggesting is slow but steady counterconditioning/desensitization. *What you are suggesting is basically flooding. I feel there is a lack of reading comprehension, but:*
> 
> You very slowly add the pressure like you'd see in a trial back in one piece at a time until you get the correct cumulative picture and the dog is confident. As an illustration, if a dog is struggling with the pressure in the PDC courage test (fast walk with padded stick), why would you suggest putting the dog under MORE pressure by making him doing the equivalent of the PSA 1 courage test (at a run with accessories and clatter stick) and basically hoping he engages and learns. That makes zero sense. Because that's basically what you are suggesting. :-k


I agree....because what I am suggesting has nothing to do with flooding...In this particular post I intitially was thinking along the lines of letting the dog feel like he is really dominating the decoy, building his confidence, and letting him think he scared and ran the guy off the field...how is that even close to flooding? and introducing other stress inducing things that the dog will be able to overcome and feel more powerful, that have nothing to do with decoy pressuring the dog directly....along with some defense work....if that is what you call it...

Maren, I think you are not understanding at all what I am saying..I never suggested anything like that...(your example of PSA courage test) 
What I am suggesting are ways that I would go about fixing a dog that showed the issues that the dog in the video showed, which had zero to do with PSA, and zero to do with what you are talking about in my opinion concerning the prey work or PSA trialing. 

Ways to deal with the root cause of the problem, not just the symptoms that will manifest from it when the dog hits the field, when the next guy gets right into the dogs head and bypasses all of what your techniques alone, would have gone towards fixing...if he does not give the dog what it needs to get through that, PSA is a pipe dream with this dog...which it might turn out to be anyhow.

I am guessing that his dog does not have major problems with the normal PSA stuff the dog does at his normal training field, with decoys he knows. The problem now is, that he has to overcome what his real problems are....

you are mostly speaking of things that attempt to get the dog to not feel any of his stress, to not see any threat there, which is a great idea, until a decoy blows right through that, and the dog DOES feel it, and does see the threat...your methods are what I would do with a dog that has never went to that place, but I would also be using my methods to ensure if the dog does go there, he will be able to handle it..

like I said, I have not said anything remotely like what you are implying I have said concerning the flooding comment, and the tossing the dog into a PSA1 courage test...

anyhow..I think we can just agree to disagree, I understand exactly what you are saying, and you do not understand what I am saying...I think that is a good plan for alot of things, I just personally, would not make that my only plan, for this dog, with the issues I saw... What happened at that event, was out of the box, the dog did not perform when out of the box, so therefore in my opinion he needs more out of the box exposure, and of course incrementally applied, I never said otherwise..


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

confidence work...(of one kind)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GZVhentAOw


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