# The Beauceron



## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

In 1984 or 6 I was in France at the cup finals in Lauriant, on the coast.

Among the entries was a male Beauceron with a very credible performance.

I am interested in a little bit of history of this breed, including actual police
or herding service in France or elsewhere.

Also a couple of high quality photos of working dogs.

Any information greatly appreciated.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Tim Welch and Beauceron Avatar des Ombres Valeureux took 3rd this years NARA Cup and 3rd in this years NARA Championship. He has also competed in France and placed well there.

Avatar is a very good all around dog NOT just a good Beauceron IMO


That's about all I know about them.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Here is a link to Avatar's pages and pedigree: www.pawsnclaws.us/avatar_ped.htm It has the owner's Tim Welch's contact information on it as well as a bunch of video links and lists some of his trials and placements. 

Avatar is very similar in character and structure to his great-grandsire Champion de la Loutre Noire, FRIII Sel, MRIII that I had the honor of owning after Fabien DeMuzzio retired him. It's very difficult to get a dog like this even when using the top working lines. Almost like spinning the roulette wheel... 

I wouldn't be the one to talk about history as IMO the French are to blame for where the Beauceron is today. They care way to much on how the dog looks. The "confirming" for breeding papers was the slow death of the Beauceron and that started many generations ago.

Even today in France when we attend the National D'Elevage du Beauceron (Beauceron Specialty and Ring trial), working breeders love the way Avatar work. However, many of them asks "but, how is he to live with?" "How is he in the house?" "in the garden?" "Does he turn off?" We say he's great, but Tim (owner) bikes the dog daily, trains the dog in obedience and jumps almost daily, meets with the club 3x week and the dog works with him and his clients (he's a pro dog trainer) and the dog is his Assistance Dog. He's perfectly social, great in the house, etc. The dog is too busy and tired to destroy the house or garden! 

Also, most ask if he is part malinois as he has so much drive and speed. I say well if you weren't so concerned with having your working dog be a "house pet" and having a "typey" head maybe you could put some drive back into the breed!

For me it's too sad to look back at what the breed was. We are going to breed Avatar to as many quality bitches as possible in the efforts to get offspring similar.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Here are photos of (in order) Avatar, Phantom (sire), Indy (pat.grandsire), Champion (mat. grea tgrand sire) that all have the same "look".

Then here's a photo of "Leo" my dog that won Best of Breed at Westminster this year. This is the "type" you mainly see that is considered correct type.


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

*Re: The Beauceron - A story I know much too well.*

This conformation process has destroyed all French working breeds,
not just the Beauceron. 

In the time period you speak of, there was a Bouvier in France who
went to the Cup finals, on his own merits.

As you know, the French hold open one position in the finals for a
non Malinois, as sort of consolation price, more of a publicity stunt.

This dog, Tulasne de la Genesis , owned and trained by 
Jean Marie Denece, went to the finals the old fashioned way,
by making the points over the Malinois in the qualification trials.

The Breeders paid lip service, but ignored the dog and talked about
how he was not the right type. Just as they always do.

This conformation process is a complete farce. The judges are conformation
breeders or people who will do as expected.

The day in Belgium when I saw a well known conformation breeder
literally pick up his bitch and touch the helper, who turned his head
and averted his eyes, to qualify, to be selected, was the day I knew
the Bouvier was dead in Europe.

The dog has to engage to pass, and after taking forever trying to 
get the bitch to do something, he just picked her up and made the
contact.

Yet for a serious dog any small infraction is enough to merit disqualification.

The French and Belgian show breeders have indeed destroyed this breed,
and apparently the process is the same in every breed.

When I say the French have destroyed all of their breeds, do not tell
me about the Malionis. The Malinois is a Belgian breed, and a breed from
the Flemish or Dutch region of Belgium.

Although there were some Bouvier progenators in the north of france and
in French Belgium, the stock behind the breed today, such as it is, was from
the Flemish or Dutch speaking region of Belgium.

The Picarady Shepherd, the Beauceron, the Briard, all the real French
dogs are to be lost.

And you know what ? The cancer spreads. I left the American Bouvier "working"
organization, NAWBA, because they adapted these French and Belgian style
temperament tests so that they could "qualify" their crap without work or training.

Now then, I am working on a book and thus looking for photos, there are many
on the web sites you point out. I would very much appreciate an original 
negative, slide or high quality, high definition scan of three or four of these
photos. In the ideal, one would be standing , there would be a close up head
study and two working photos.

Scanners and Photoshop have come a long way, and I am making real progress
in getting the detail out of black or dark dogs.

Some examples:

http://angelplace.net/CentauriKennel/Gal/index.htm

Also, has the Beauceron ever been significant as a police service dog ?


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

*Re: The Beauceron - A story I know much too well.*



Jim Engel said:


> This conformation process has destroyed all French working breeds,
> not just the Beauceron.
> 
> .....When I say the French have destroyed all of their breeds, do not tell
> ...


The true working Malinois of course is from the Flemish side of Belgium and the breeding knows no Dutch border.. It is a dog for work without restrictions on breeding different types or races..a working dog..

I've sold less than 10 Beauces in 20+ years that have gone on to be police dogs in the USA. As far as in France, I would have to guess as I know of no statistics that 50 years ago or more they were used by the French police and military.

I'll try to get some good quality photos for you. Your book can be something people can look back on if they want to read about breeds that used to _______...


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

The Dutch border is a very interesting subject, for in many ways there
is no way to tell which side you are on, and it is often not even marked on
the back roads.

But you can sit in two club houses ten miles apart, one KNPV and the other
Belgian Ring, and in a way it is as if one is on the dark side of the moon.

The Belgian Paradox, half Dutch or Germanic and half French, plays a huge
part in Belgian life, and one can not understand the dogs without understanding
the divided and angry Belgian culture.

As for Flanders and Holland, much of Belgium is still predominantly Catholic and
the Netherlands is very strongly Protestant and open. This is not as much a
factor as perhaps it once was, for Europeans on the whole are disengaged from
actual religious practice.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

This might interest you, part English:

http://www.amisdubeauceron.org/

The French Shepherds are no longer good for Schutzhund, IPO, etc. Most say they weren't bred for this.

The Briard is to be found in Agility (bitches - size) nowadays. I had a one-off Briard, unfortunately. We reached IPO 3 fairly easily as this was a dog that had no fear, not a "killer / Kracher" but a workaholic, quiet in the house but 0-100 outside dog. Not interested in other people, dogs, just anything else that moved on four legs, but fairly easy to communicate with so not much problem.

A chap I knew who had the Briard's father also had a Beauceron but a tough cookie to crumble. Either he pushed him too far (unfairly, maybe) but the dog nabbed him one day and his wife said he was too aggressive to keep ????

That was the last I saw of the working Beaucerons because what followed was unmentionable - big, floppy eared dogs with absolutely no "get up and go".

There may be good Beaucerons around but as you say, like most breeds, they have succombed to the show rings and the clubs here in Switzerland are not interested in the dogs' gaits, health, etc. All they have to do is stand in a show ring and look pretty.

Ferdinand Schmutz shows a picture of a Briard in 1964 and it's coat was not very long. Today, it wins at a show if it has a long, soft coat???

Beauci, Briard, Picardie, adieu!!!!


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

We've trained 3 as PSD's here . One for our department and the other 2 for different agencies . This was about 10 years ago .

The one in our unit we eventually washed . I've never seen a more Jeykle and Hyde personality in a dog . I never knew how he was going to come after me as a decoy . 1 minute he'd hit me like a ton of bricks and be in for a fight and the next minute he'd be timid . 

The other 2 (smaller very ugly dogs compared to ours) made it out in the street , I worked with 1 of them a few times ( I wasn't a trainer at the time , they just asked me to decoy for them ) and if I remember right he was pretty tough on the bite and very stubborn on the recall . 

I did see another very large one at a Schtz. club around the same time . I saw it doing some civil agitation and the thing looked like a devil dog . 

I haven't seen any working around here since those 3 . I think they were all donated to us from the same breeder .


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> This might interest you, part English:
> 
> http://www.amisdubeauceron.org/
> 
> ...


Gillian,
I couldn't find the quote you mention above on the French Beauceron Club site. What section is it in?


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Debbie, you won't find it there - it's just my disappointed comment as I did so enjoy working with my Briard but changed breeds as I couldn't find one who would even go near a decoy!

I haven't seen any French Shepherds in open trials for years over here.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

*Re: The Briard*



Gillian Schuler said:


> Debbie, you won't find it there - it's just my disappointed comment as I did so enjoy working with my Briard but changed breeds as I couldn't find one who would even go near a decoy!
> 
> I haven't seen any French Shepherds in open trials for years over here.


HI Gillian

There was a SchH I Briard at the DVG Nationals. He turned out
to be one of my favorites. Anyone can train a GSD or Malinois :-0


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Debbie, you won't find it there - it's just my disappointed comment as I did so enjoy working with my Briard but changed breeds as I couldn't find one who would even go near a decoy!
> 
> I haven't seen any French Shepherds in open trials for years over here.


Ok, I wouldn't of been surprised to find it there though 

I totally understand. I started with Beaucerons and now I am more involved with Malinois as I like to own and train good dogs.


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Debbie Skinner said:


> now I am more involved with Malinois as I like to own and train good dogs.


Speaking of good dogs........there was my favorite dog at the FR Championships and he wasn't even entered :-$ If you love D'Only on the videos, you'll fall in love with him in person!! WHAT a dog!!

And he's just a pup. Can't wait to see him all grown up ;-) Nice job on his training and relationship with you Debbie...very nice.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Candy Eggert said:


> Speaking of good dogs........there was my favorite dog at the FR Championships and he wasn't even entered :-$ If you love D'Only on the videos, you'll fall in love with him in person!! WHAT a dog!!
> 
> And he's just a pup. Can't wait to see him all grown up ;-) Nice job on his training and relationship with you Debbie...very nice.


Thank you! He's such an "only" child! Now 11 months old. My ribs hurt a lot after the weekend of playing with him..especially after Sunday's decoy selection as I had him out a lot and rewarding him for his focus on me and obedience. He's such a brute with the tug. I took pain meds and sucked it up, but have been paying for it all week.

BTW, in general the Beauceron breed has gone downhill. 

However, I want to give big kudos to Tim Welch and Avatar (3rd place Cup and Champ) on Saturday. He's also placed 2nd at the French Nationals trial this year as well as at the Challenge of the Races. and 3rd at the Canadian Championships. Avatar is an exceptional working dog. As an individual dog, one could not ask for more. 

If I could clone that dog, there are many trainers that would love to have such a dog. Tim Welch has done a great job with the dog and they are quite the team. I joke that he's like a big/hard Malinois in a Beauceron-suit!

I will continue to try to breed for another Avatar.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

*Re: The Briard*



Thomas Barriano said:


> HI Gillian
> 
> There was a SchH I Briard at the DVG Nationals. He turned out
> to be one of my favorites. Anyone can train a GSD or Malinois :-0


Thanks for that - googled and found the video, very nice work.

Sorry to disappoint you, but I found training the Briard (IPO3) was not as difficult as trying to get one of my GSDs through IPO 1. OK, then I had more time, had a regular group to work with, mostly GSD trainers but even so......it must be age creeping on.


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## Meghan Rabon (Feb 10, 2009)

Here are a few pictures of a full-time herding beauceron that were taken in September. He is an awesome dog, crazy drive, great work ethic...a really nice dog regardless of breed.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Meghan Rabon said:


> Here are a few pictures of a full-time herding beauceron that were taken in September. He is an awesome dog, crazy drive, great work ethic...a really nice dog regardless of breed.



Awesome! Thanks for sharing!


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

Could you send me the original files for these photos, the name of dog and owner, location ?

Email me at: [email protected]

These were taken with a Canon Digital Rebel DSLR, perhaps even in raw mode, so 
should be very nice.



Meghan Rabon said:


> Here are a few pictures of a full-time herding beauceron that were taken in September. He is an awesome dog, crazy drive, great work ethic...a really nice dog regardless of breed.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Meghan,

He appears to be tending border-style. Some of my french tending buddies would love to know more about him in terms of location and type of daily work performed.


Terrasita


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Avatar photos from the FRIII Championships NARA Trial on November 7, 2009.


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## Meghan Rabon (Feb 10, 2009)

Sorry - I have not had much computer time in the last few days!

Jim - I will e-mail you about the photos, I took them (not in RAW mode but high quality JPEG). I'm not sure if they would be for your personal use or if you would like to post them on your site, but I'd have to ask that you ask the owner's permission before posting them publicly. I don't want to piss him off by posting his dog everywhere LOL

For those who were curious, here is his website:
http://herdingbeaucerons.com/index.html 
The dog's name is Breizh. I do not know if he has a kennel name or what it might be, but his pedigree is on the website. The farm is in northern NJ, only about 15 minutes from me. I started training there recently with my GSD and am *hoping* to get an HGH with her in the future. I would really like her to be Schh3, HGH, FH2 one day - but anyway - back to the beaucerons!! 

The pics I posted were from the club's HGH affiliation trial - next year they will be holding an official trial.  I have many other pics of the GSD's herding and others of the same beauceron.

He leases the farm - I believe the farm is over 200 acres, but don't quote me on that! The farm is huge though, and he told me today that there's a 200(?) acre orchard/vineyard next to it - the owner of the orchard allows him to graze the sheep around the orchard after the apples have been picked. 
I don't know the exact details of how he works daily life on the farm, but the herd is around 200 head normally. I think they are kept in a very large enclosed pasture at night with the guard dog, and during the day the dog herds them to various grazes and works the border, I guess for a few hours at a time, then moves onto the next one. The farm goes along both sides of a fairly busy road, and the sheep are herded across the road to the other side of the farm every couple of weeks. They are constantly moving so the sheep get the best grass and also so the sheep do not really have issues with worms since they are not grazing where they're using the bathroom for long, and by the time they get back to the same pasture any worm eggs would be dead.

Geary (the trainer/dog owner) told me he's been to France many times, and that beaucerons are not really used for sheep there anymore - mostly they herd cattle which is not quite the same thing - it's more driving/fetching than tending. When not being used for sheep for several generations, the dogs may lose the boundary instinct that is so important when tending.

I am also told that a genetic heart defect is common in the beauceron - sorry, I don't remember what it's called. Geary's first dog had it and dropped dead a month after she got her HGH, and his current male has it also. He is still working him, partly out of necessity since his other beauce is a good dog but not super strong (and you don't want something to go wrong when herding the sheep across a road for example!!), and partly because...well that's his job and if he's going to drop dead it might as well be while he's working. He was doing bitework with his mail before the dog was diagnosed, and said he was excellent at that as well - he's got a lot of aggression and extreme drive - once he found out about the heart problem he stopped with the bitework, but the dog still works just as hard as ever herding.


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## Meghan Rabon (Feb 10, 2009)

I forgot he also has a couple videos of the dog on Youtube - here is one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3xLXQ-rYmw&feature=related


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

*Thank you Meghan.*

Very interesting, & I will ask permission to use the photos if things work out.

I am working on another book, I did quite a bit about two years ago and
then it got depressing because it reminded me of the situation in my breed.

But I am getting serious about it again and appreciate the input.


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