# Food Rewards



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Y'all know I train mostly with food. It works. but I think it's a weakness in my training abilities and I have a chance to learn and grow.

I have the Service Dog that hasn't been placed yet. She is almost 2 years old. Her already high drvies are reaching the points of insanity. As in, if I don't find a way to suppress or manage her drives, she won't be placed as a Service Dog.

She has been trained with food. Crazy food drive! I've been doing self-control exercises as part of every training session since she was 6 weeks old and the food drive is getting out-of-hand. She get over-enthusiastic about food reward (just her kibble) and bites my hand - even when she has to sit and "leave it." I withhold the reward (no matter how perfect the behavior) if she tries to grab at my hand or take the reward to quickly. She has been corrected HARD for snapping for food. 

She works fine without food reward, but it's not as pretty gorgeous or responsive as I would like. I am sure that over time, her training would fall apart. If she believes there is a chance of food or tug BOOM! :lol: high in drive and very accurate obedience (paired with sucky duration).

Her prey drive is fairly insane too. I generally don't allow her to express it and always require self-control. 

What are my options here? Any experience on managing / suppressing high drives? Do you think too high of drives would conflict with Service Dog work/lifestyle? 

I have a lot invested into this dog so I'm willing to put in work to improve this. But if I screwed up and picked the wrong dog for the work ...


----------



## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Ms Vaini,

I prefer to use food to teach and shape a behavior and then use a toy to build intensity. Then again that doesn't work with all breeds not all have toy drive (is that even a real drive?)


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I guess what service the dog was trained for would have a lot to do with how much conflict there was.
It could be extreamly hard for someone with disabilities (I hate that word) to keep a very high drive dog from getting bored and maybe destructive.
The hand bitting could quicky return without a lot of constant training on the handler's part. That I know. both my GSDs were hand nippers. I have to stay on top of that when they're in drive.


----------



## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

This is a completely random thought, but, does the new handler absolutely need to handfeed the food rewards? Can't you simply drop or toss the reward to the dog? If that is the situation causing the problem...


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Chris - I'm afraid to do that! I don't remember if it was Mike Ellis or Mark Keating commented about "to much prey drive" in bitework. (Bitework = tug play to her, and many of her tasks are tug-related) I don't daire build intesity that way. For instance, one of her tasks is removing shoes and socks. Assuming a handler has reduced or no sensation in his/her feet, increasing intesity on this could result in an injury!

I need LESS intensity, but with the eagerness to work that comes with her believing a reward is coming.

Anna - she's a bad catcher! If I give her anything other than kibble, I throw it to her. Usually hits her on the nose and bounces off! :lol: That could be part of a solution - but wouldn't work in public.

I think I answered my question here:


> To be honest, I haven't noticed much of a difference for the dogs that I have bonded with. If anything, they perform more poorly because the dog has other ways to get rewarded, e.g.: lying on the bed is self-rewarding, why bother working to get affection when I'm getting it anyway?


 I need to leave some toys laying around and let her self-feed. :lol: :banghead: :lol:


----------



## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Anne Vaini said:


> Chris - I'm afraid to do that! I don't remember if it was Mike Ellis or Mark Keating commented about "to much prey drive" in bitework. (Bitework = tug play to her, and many of her tasks are tug-related) I don't daire build intesity that way. For instance, one of her tasks is removing shoes and socks. Assuming a handler has reduced or no sensation in his/her feet, increasing intesity on this could result in an injury!
> 
> I need LESS intensity, but with the eagerness to work that comes with her believing a reward is coming.
> 
> ...



I know what you mean by less intensity and that's why I'm most productive with food and the Malinois at first.


----------



## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Just a thought... as a service dog, will she need the same precision and intensity that_ you _ask of her? 

My thinking is that for everyday tasks in the course of being someone's companion and service dog, will a praise reward be enough to keep her motivated, keep her doing what's required, but not get her amped the way food does? And then add in food or tug rewards to increase intensity when needed? Is the reward of 'getting to do stuff/being paid attention to' enough, or will she just do whatever she wants, if there's no food reward, rather than respond to her handler?


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

leslie cassian said:


> Just a thought... as a service dog, will she need the same precision and intensity that_ you _ask of her?
> 
> My thinking is that for everyday tasks in the course of being someone's companion and service dog, will a praise reward be enough to keep her motivated, keep her doing what's required, but not get her amped the way food does? And then add in food or tug rewards to increase intensity when needed? Is the reward of 'getting to do stuff/being paid attention to' enough, or will she just do whatever she wants, if there's no food reward, rather than respond to her handler?


I'm not sure. I just don't like to see har slacking. I was messing around last night and for her tasks, she has a really high value on the marker. It was pretty much self-rewarding. But for obedience... she starts to trail off. Like she's heeling, but her ears are back, head "down" and she's mosey-ing along. Hmmm....

She won't refuse a command or do whatever the heck she wants, but it takes her so long that it's impractical. If she believes that she won't be rewarded, and I have her get something out of a cupboard, she'll chew on the knob for a while, try some different knobs on different door, open it, close it, open it, close it (this is when I want to scream) then mosey on over, get out the object, DROP IT ON THE FLOOR... I'm getting all frustrated just thinking about it. :lol: But when she believes there is a chance of reward, she'll fling the door open, grab the item, close the door (with the item still in her mouth) jump up and put it in my hand. It's a different picture.

You might be right on that. I might be getting carried away. Maybe I should think of it in terms of "work results" rather than the manner in which she does it?

Another reason I want to move away from treats is that it's one more messy thing to add to an already complicated life. I assume she'll go to someone in a manual wheelchair. If the handler stopped to reward, pretty soon, she'd get amped whenever they stop. That poses a problem.

I guess it comes down to:

Will her handler be physically able to play tug games, or an acceptable substitute?

Will she loose motivation over time (months, years) with absence of food reward?

Will absence of food reward build her food drive and present a problem if food reward (or opportunity to steal food) comes in the future?


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

For finger nippers, I just cup my hands like when feeding a horse a carrot or apple. Though it ironically can make them even more drivey for the food. But no lost fingers that way!


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> For finger nippers, I just cup my hands like when feeding a horse a carrot or apple. Though it ironically can make them even more drivey for the food. But no lost fingers that way!


I do that. When she gets too drivey, she'll grab my whole hand and scrape her teeth across my knuckles. Ouch! I have lots of scars on my fingers from this dog...


----------



## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Anna Kasho said:


> This is a completely random thought, but, does the new handler absolutely need to handfeed the food rewards? Can't you simply drop or toss the reward to the dog? If that is the situation causing the problem...


 
You can toss or drop. But make sure the food does not hit the ground to often. The dog will start hearing his marker...if you use a marker. then look on the ground for it. But just any other reward schedule, I prefer to vary how the dog recieves the food or toy. Sometims I toss, sometimes from the hand. I do not want the dog to anticpate where the reward is going to come from.


----------



## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Anne Vaini said:


> Chris - I'm afraid to do that! I don't remember if it was Mike Ellis or Mark Keating commented about "to much prey drive" in bitework. (Bitework = tug play to her, and many of her tasks are tug-related) I don't daire build intesity that way. For instance, one of her tasks is removing shoes and socks. Assuming a handler has reduced or no sensation in his/her feet, increasing intesity on this could result in an injury!
> 
> I need LESS intensity, but with the eagerness to work that comes with her believing a reward is coming.
> 
> ...


 
Anne, with the food tossing, my bitch is the same way terrible eye coordination, and snaps to soon...So I started toss ing the food at her faster and she catches everytime now. I mean I really have wing it at her, fast ball style.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Why would you train a high drive dog to be a service dog ??? By definition they are looking for lower middle drive dogs.

Who wants to be the blind guy getting dragged into a tree by this dog ?? LOL

What breed is this thing ??


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> For finger nippers, I just cup my hands like when feeding a horse a carrot or apple. Though it ironically can make them even more drivey for the food. But no lost fingers that way!


I've got a dog (Trooper) that can nip the palm of you hand no matter how flat you hold it. ](*,)


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Why would you train a high drive dog to be a service dog ??? By definition they are looking for lower middle drive dogs.
> 
> Who wants to be the blind guy getting dragged into a tree by this dog ?? LOL
> 
> What breed is this thing ??



She WAS a middle drive dog! A washout for performance disc because not enough drive! :banghead:

It's the dog in my avatar. 

I messed around with her a bit last night. She can catch larger / lighter colored treats just fine. Just the little kibbles give her a problem. 

Has anyone taken a food motivated dog and removed the food (completely, for months/years) without having the work suffer?


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

> I think I answered my question here:
> 
> 
> > To be honest, I haven't noticed much of a difference for the dogs that I have bonded with. If anything, they perform more poorly because the dog has other ways to get rewarded, e.g.: lying on the bed is self-rewarding, why bother working to get affection when I'm getting it anyway?
> ...


I guess I did answer my question there. I've let Emma sleep loose (on a bed), play tug and eat food IN A DISH. *gasp!* lol Her drive is down a touch, and her gorgeous heeling is... less gorgeous. :shrug:


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

So everyone is lining up for a pit as a service dog right ?? LOL


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Eh, I could see some advantages...shed less than labs, shepherds, and goldens. Most are a bit smaller too, but strong.


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> So everyone is lining up for a pit as a service dog right ?? LOL


:lol: Jeff you're so cute. :lol: 

There are several APBT Service Dogs that I know of personally, and I've heard reports of and seen photos of several others.

There are additional acces challenges with APBT Service Dogs. Increased insurance cost for a landlord does not fall under "reasonable accomodation," and they are not exempt from breed bans.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Yes, but then again, what do you know. LOL It is a pit bull for christs sake. I would hate to need a dog, and then get booted out of places for having a pit. Nothing like adding to the disability. 

What kind of service dog is this food only creature ?? That would be fun as well, waiting for the dog to bomb me into something, as it did not get a reward.

I see blind people all the time with a cane, and bad stories of some badly trained service dog. Good times !


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Yes, but then again, what do you know. LOL It is a pit bull for christs sake. I would hate to need a dog, and then get booted out of places for having a pit. Nothing like adding to the disability.
> 
> What kind of service dog is this food only creature ?? That would be fun as well, waiting for the dog to bomb me into something, as it did not get a reward.
> 
> I see blind people all the time with a cane, and bad stories of some badly trained service dog. Good times !



APBTs are nice for mobility service dogs - they (should be) compact yet strong enough to provide adequate support. They don't shed or drool as much as other dogs. They tend to be handler-sensitive, making them a reasonable candidate for sensitive detection / medical alert and psychiatric services dog (which are often a dual-purpose mobility plus medical alert).

I saw a rotten golden retreiver service dog out shoping the other day. I guess it is suppossed to be for medical alert, but it wouldn't have passed my public access standard test! And there's a blind lady around here with a service dog that pulls and forges. Scary!

These are dogs performing a set of behaviors that help a handler with a medical problem. They're not miracle workers, angels, or really too special. They are dogs that are trained.

Emma isn't a 'food-only' dog in the sense that she won't do her tasks without the presence of food. She does them, but not up to what I expect out of her. I have high standards. 

Futhermore, I don't train "intellegent refusal" and I don't train for guide/seeing-eye dogs. I would be hesitant to use and APBT for that training because of the handler's inability to see the dog's body language in the presence of other dogs. A dog must be paired correctly with the handler. Imagine the dog at it's worst possible behavior - is the handler physicall and mentally able to control the dog?


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

What, like dragging a wheelchair around and picking shit up ??


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> What, like dragging a wheelchair around and picking shit up ??


:lol: That's about it. Nudging things. Depositing items. Tugging.

It's 5 or 6 behaviors applied dozens of ways to accomplish a spectacular variety of tasks.

Can you have your dog clean up the living room for you? Emma puts my son's toys away, puts trash in the trash can, puts pillows on the couch, laundry in a basket...

Working on retrieving/depsiting food items and food wrappers (like throwing food away in the trash without tasting... :lol: )


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Can you have your dog clean up the living room for you?

Like run the vacuum cleaner ?

I am busy trying to get a ring 2 on Mr I can't figure out the send away anymore. I can run the vacuum cleaner just fine.

He already pulls me on the bike, knows left and right and stop. Took all of three trips on the bike.

Somehow cannot figure the send away anymore. Go figure.


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Can you have your dog clean up the living room for you?
> 
> Like run the vacuum cleaner ?
> 
> ...


Ooo! That's a good one. I bet a dog could do a handheld vacuum if the handler turned it on and handed it to the dog. It would be just like training a dog to paint with a brush on canvas.

I tried to teach Emma to hold a dustpan for sweeping but I went about it a wrong way and got stuck.


----------



## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

I found annes initial post interesting and hoped people had some ideas to share on how to get a better response from your dog using food when either you dont want to use prey or your dog has no prey what are some techniques to keep the dog thinking and not get use to its routine and keep enthusiasm high.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

OK spoil sport, lets start at the beginning. When this happens, start a new thread, and tell us what you are experiencing, and what you would like to change exactly.

Here is a hint. when you reward a dog, you are rewarding not only the behavior, but the MOOD of the dog as well.

So when your dull ass dog barely sits, and you give him a reward, you are reinforcing that slow dull sit.

Do not feed your dog for three or four days, then wind him up like a top (tease) with food, ask for a behavior and if it is what you want, then reward. if not, don't feed and try again the next day. Look to reward the happy silly mood. It is just like teaching the hold and bark. LOL

This also covers your no prey drive problem.


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> OK spoil sport, lets start at the beginning. When this happens, start a new thread, and tell us what you are experiencing, and what you would like to change exactly.
> 
> Here is a hint. when you reward a dog, you are rewarding not only the behavior, but the MOOD of the dog as well.
> 
> ...


Right. But don't you get stuck? When Emma is being a dull ass dog and barely sits I won't reward the sit - so she essentially gets away with it.
And after about a year of all-positive, I felt I had to crack out the corrections to turn it around. Worked beautifully until she figured out how to get away with it a different way. 


OMG I'm being trained. :lol:


----------



## kristin tresidder (Oct 23, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Yes, but then again, what do you know. LOL It is a pit bull for christs sake. I would hate to need a dog, and then get booted out of places for having a pit. Nothing like adding to the disability.



"places" aren't allowed to refuse a service dog of any kind due to breed, level of training, or even excessively low levels of believability that the dog is in fact, a service dog. 

http://www.ada.gov/qasrvc.htm

i get ladies coming into my store with neurotic, shaking tea-cup chihuahuas (etc & etc) inside their purses, and when they're told "no dogs," they reply, "oh, it's my service dog." and we have to say "ok." and let them go their merry way.


----------



## kristin tresidder (Oct 23, 2008)

Anne Vaini said:


> She won't refuse a command or do whatever the heck she wants, but it takes her so long that it's impractical. If she believes that she won't be rewarded, and I have her get something out of a cupboard, she'll chew on the knob for a while, try some different knobs on different door, open it, close it, open it, close it (this is when I want to scream) then mosey on over, get out the object, DROP IT ON THE FLOOR... I'm getting all frustrated just thinking about it. :lol: But when she believes there is a chance of reward, she'll fling the door open, grab the item, close the door (with the item still in her mouth) jump up and put it in my hand. It's a different picture.



if she knows a behavior, and chooses to be sloppy and lackadaisical about it, then she needs to be corrected for slacking off. she needs to know, if she's going to be a service dog, that she needs to work whether she wants to or not - she doesn't get to do it when she wants to, and goof off when she doesn't. perhaps some correction to gain compliance when commitment is withheld is in order with this dog. it seems to me that once she's in the field, reliable performance is no longer optional, so her training should pair strict consequences with sloppy work and/or poor, self-serving choices on her part.


----------



## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

This BS about rewarding moods and what not....whatever. The mood of the dog is based on expectation from passed experience. Not that it recieved a treat when it did something slow. I have a feeling that the problem does not lie with in what comes after the slow dull sit, but what came before it. Passed experience of sitting with little, slow or no reward If a dog sits for you but it's slow, The dog is thinking there no reason to be fast....either the reward is far away (in time) or it's not coming at all. 

Instead of starving your dog for days.Which may or may not work (starving them to make drive that is) Try this. Try rewarding faster. Try rewarding the minute the dogs ass hits the ground. Everytime. No matter if the dog is slow or not. If the dog wants the food, then it will find out the fastest way to the food. which would be sitting faster. You can aid this process along with using a pinch by popping it, exactly when you say sit.Not enough to hurt the dog but enough to get them to move. Like when someone tries to get yor attention by touching your shoulder, they are not hurting you, but they are letting you know to turnaround. Lets stay with this anaology. I have found when some says my name to get my attention, then taps me on the shoulder a few seconds later its almost like nagging. But when they do the 2 together it's never even a second thought. You can also use a riding crop or a the end of a fishing pole to tap thier ass. I did this on my dogs on about turns...And damn that little girl can move her ass.

And I am having a hard time seeing why you would correct a dog, who just sat, when you asked it to....Just because it was slow. The dog is still being obedient. Positive punishment (correction) makes behaviors go away. Now what I suggested was negative reiforcement...which would make the dog work to avoid the aversive. +P=extinugish behavior -R=make behavior. 

And as for drive....If you do not have it. Do not train formal behaviors. You have to have drive first. If you train a dog that has no drive at the present moment....and you do train, you have a dog that has no drive and knows how to sit. Putting control on a dog with no drive, just makes a controlled dog with no drive.


----------



## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

ok cool i didnt want to start a new thread or hijack this one i just thought since ideas were being put forward on this topic it was the place to ask? Great input james and i can see where you are coming from plenty to think about there and as you said timing would be critical with negative reinforcement.I have seen this work with one of my dogs a stubborn rott from a question i posted on another thread about focus and trying most things with her i ended going with a correction(idea put forward by jeff and gillian )which i already had in mind but just needed reassurance to gain the dogs focus around animals and little dogs and it worked a treat.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: i get ladies coming into my store with neurotic, shaking tea-cup chihuahuas (etc & etc) inside their purses, and when they're told "no dogs," they reply, "oh, it's my service dog." and we have to say "ok." and let them go their merry way

No proof necessary ??? I cry BS.

Quote: This BS about rewarding moods and what not....whatever. The mood of the dog is based on expectation from passed experience.

Which came from rewarding slow dull responses. Wow your really not very good at this.

Quote: Instead of starving your dog for days.Which may or may not work (starving them to make drive that is)

Obviously you have never done this. It is obvious at best you should leave advice to someone who has trained many many low drive dogs, as opposed to the three you might have trained. It works quite well, and everytime as opposed to your idea of rewarding the dull behavior quickly. 

What Peta trainer told you a dog needs to eat every day ???

Quote: And I am having a hard time seeing why you would correct a dog, who just sat, when you asked it to....Just because it was slow. Obviously you have never seen a field dog trained with an E-collar. Yet again showing that you are not ready for these questions LOL

How many dogs have you trained that had little food drive and no prey drive in regards to a ball or tug ????

Silly internet repeater, training is for folks that have done it. LOL


----------



## kristin tresidder (Oct 23, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: i get ladies coming into my store with neurotic, shaking tea-cup chihuahuas (etc & etc) inside their purses, and when they're told "no dogs," they reply, "oh, it's my service dog." and we have to say "ok." and let them go their merry way
> 
> No proof necessary ??? I cry BS.



unfortunately not - go back and read the FAQ that i posted. the logic is that those with disabilities will not carry their paperwork with them every time they run out to buy milk or toilet paper, so they cannot be asked to produce it. trust me, our legal department did a whole big thing on it, because one of our stores actually got sued for denying entrance to a service dog on the grounds that it did not appear to be fulfilling any function for the owner. we have lots of money to spend on lawyers, and we lost because we violated the law.

http://www.ada.gov/qasrvc.htm*1. Q: What are the laws that apply to my business?
*
A: Under the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA), privately owned businesses that serve the public, such as restaurants, hotels, retail stores, taxicabs, theaters, concert halls, and sports facilities, are prohibited from discriminating against individuals with disabilities. The ADA requires these businesses to allow people with disabilities to bring their service animals onto business premises in whatever areas customers are generally allowed.



*3. Q: How can I tell if an animal is really a service animal and not just a pet?*
A: Some, but not all, service animals wear special collars and harnesses. Some, but not all, are licensed or certified and have identification papers. If you are not certain that an animal is a service animal, you may ask the person who has the animal if it is a service animal required because of a disability. However, an individual who is going to a restaurant or theater is not likely to be carrying documentation of his or her medical condition or disability. Therefore, such documentation generally may not be required as a condition for providing service to an individual accompanied by a service animal. Although a number of states have programs to certify service animals, you may not insist on proof of state certification before permitting the service animal to accompany the person with a disability.





(if you click on the link, you'll notice the nice lil' seal from the department of justice)







​


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

kristin tresidder said:


> "places" aren't allowed to refuse a service dog of any kind due to breed, level of training, or even excessively low levels of believability that the dog is in fact, a service dog.
> 
> http://www.ada.gov/qasrvc.htm
> 
> i get ladies coming into my store with neurotic, shaking tea-cup chihuahuas (etc & etc) inside their purses, and when they're told "no dogs," they reply, "oh, it's my service dog." and we have to say "ok." and let them go their merry way.


Neither of those are totally correct.

A landlord can refuse to rent to a disabled person with an APBT service dog _if the landlord would have to switch to a more expensive insurance policy._ (Insurance companies discriminate by breed of dog).

You cannot ask about the nature of a handler's disability, BUT you CAN ask about the dog's training. You cannot require certification or training logs. 

Showing "interest" in the dog and it's training can discourage people who bring pets into stores. Be totally polite, friendly, naive and drop hints like "he looks so scared!" in a big-eyed, high-pitched, (and loud) blonde sort of way.

If the dog's behavior is innappropriate (aggression, barking at a movie, etc.), you CAN kick _the dog_ out, but in that case, you need to provide alternative assistance to the handler. For instance, if a dog pulls a wheelchair and a business has valid grounds for asking the dog to leave, the business should provide a motorized wheelchair or have an employee assist the handler. 

Public access RIGHTS only apply to the handler. A dog never has public access rights.


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

kristin tresidder said:


> if she knows a behavior, and chooses to be sloppy and lackadaisical about it, then she needs to be corrected for slacking off. she needs to know, if she's going to be a service dog, that she needs to work whether she wants to or not - she doesn't get to do it when she wants to, and goof off when she doesn't. perhaps some correction to gain compliance when commitment is withheld is in order with this dog. it seems to me that once she's in the field, reliable performance is no longer optional, so her training should pair strict consequences with sloppy work and/or poor, self-serving choices on her part.


That's exactly right Krisin. I'm stuck on her either wearing a prong or having the potential for food reward. When the prong is gone and she's confident there's no chance of food, it's hit or miss.

I know how to work on improving her being collar-wise. But I don't know about the other. She might work for 20 minutes before getting a piece of food. This isn't your typical pet-parent dog-doesn't-obey-without-a-lure. But if she's convinced that there's no potential for food, she's slooow.


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Deleted reply to James. Jeff covered it nicely with fewer words. :lol:


----------



## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: i get ladies coming into my store with neurotic, shaking tea-cup chihuahuas (etc & etc) inside their purses, and when they're told "no dogs," they reply, "oh, it's my service dog." and we have to say "ok." and let them go their merry way
> 
> No proof necessary ??? I cry BS.
> 
> ...


 
Jeff, Oh that's right....You consistantly are up on a podium smiling down us little folks who know nothing. I forget, with all that success you have....Who am I to talk.


----------



## Julie Kinsey (Feb 10, 2008)

Anne, you wrote, in your original post:

"She has been trained with food. Crazy food drive! I've been doing self-control exercises as part of every training session since she was 6 weeks old and the food drive is getting out-of-hand. She get over-enthusiastic about food reward (just her kibble) and bites my hand - even when she has to sit and "leave it." I withhold the reward (no matter how perfect the behavior) if she tries to grab at my hand or take the reward to quickly. She has been corrected HARD for snapping for food."

In my opinion, and personal experience, with this breed particularly, marker training with the prescribed foundation of continuous reinforcement per one behavior, creates this type of pushy dog. It creates a reactive dog which tends to bounce off a behavior as hard as it bounces into it. 

And you wrote:

"She works fine without food reward, but it's not as pretty gorgeous or responsive as I would like. I am sure that over time, her training would fall apart. If she believes there is a chance of food or tug BOOM!







high in drive and very accurate obedience (paired with sucky duration)."

The intermediate bridge, developed by Kayce Cover, is an incredible tool for building duration. 

Are you perhaps also talking about your what your perception of pretty, gorgeous or responsive is? It seems to me that with using external motivators, you have to be very careful not to allow the dogs primary motivation to become the motivator, instead of the handler, the teacher/student relationship, and the accountability and pride in a job well done. This is where the 'everybody works for a paycheck' theory falls flat for me.

"What are my options here? Any experience on managing / suppressing high drives? Do you think too high of drives would conflict with Service Dog work/lifestyle?"

What are your expectations for the dog?

Julie Kinsey


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

kristin tresidder said:


> unfortunately not - go back and read the FAQ that i posted. the logic is that those with disabilities will not carry their paperwork with them every time they run out to buy milk or toilet paper, so they cannot be asked to produce it. trust me, our legal department did a whole big thing on it, because one of our stores actually got sued for denying entrance to a service dog on the grounds that it did not appear to be fulfilling any function for the owner. we have lots of money to spend on lawyers, and we lost because we violated the law.


There are certainly invisible disabilities that Service Dogs are trained for. Sensitive-detection dogs predict or alert to seizures, blood-sugar extremes, panic attacks etc.







[/INDENT][/QUOTE]


----------



## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

actually James technique does work very well if applied correctly.
Everyone knows training can't be cookie cutter training-some dogs need to have creative training techniques- I used the technique James talked about lots of times, giving the reward as soon as the dog did the command-the breeder I bought my Mal Tango from in France,Danny Maison, very well known and experienced in the FR world and selling police K9's , showed me the technique years back, when I was struggling with Tango's half ass sit and return to heel position-we used the ball for the reward ,not food-and no confllict with the handler. Worked like a charm. _ like James said- "Try rewarding the minute the dogs ass hits the_ _ground. Everytime. No matter if the dog is slow or not. If the dog wants the food,( we used a ball -dog was ball crazy) then it will find out the fastest way to the food(reward). which would be sitting faster._"


----------



## deidre muccio (May 3, 2008)

*where are those high standards*

I'm perplexed, but maybe I shouldn't be. If this animal has been in training since it was 6 weeks of age, why is the mouthiness issue still an issue? I guess it's not uncommon though it is troublesome, truly a big gap in the overall training plan. 
I've worked guide dogs since 89 and my last guide came to me quite mouthy. It was odd that someone decided to let her pass without having gone back and worked on that before turning her over to me. Luckily, though I am blind, I am usually extremely aware of what is going on around me and with the dog in my charge.
When first home with my last guide dog, after she bruised a few cheekks and even bit mine, I had to guard kids against her mouthiness while I had time to teach her to be gentle. Though this was not a food issue at all with my guide, I do find what Anne describes to be a common problem, whether it involves a service dog or neighbor's pet. It is now one of the first things I work on with grabby pups and adult dogs as well. It never seemed to be a hard thing to teach, that is ... that food (or a toy in hand for that matter) is not yours until a "take it" is given. There's little I hate more than a dog mugging me for food and there are no less important real safety concerns well worth thinking about. 
Due to the blindness, I work up close. First rule of order is the animal needs to understand that it's teeth and mouth need to remain soft and gentle and it's head and snout back and off, no contact unless invited. That goes for whether or not I have food on me or if he or she is rushing to knock heads with me out of sheer exuberance. 
Though my guides were all perfectly behaved around food, like I said above, I've taken dogs belonging to friends and neighbors and taught them such lessons, eating on the floor with a plate of food within inches of them. Some say "how cruel" or it's not fair to taunt them, but the name of the game is for them to learn to control themselves around food. There are rewards enough out there, dinner, random treating, a walk, the joy of being a true partner to someone. 
I can't believe that anyone would recommend throwing a service dog in training food in order to keep them back. I recently worked with a 2 year old guide dog who could easily have badly bit the fingers off kids who held toys they were going to throw for him to go retrieve. We started with his having an awareness of my hands, of his mouth, of his giving me space or him being used to me having the control over the object and that it was not a free for all. I did this within inches of his mouth, upping the movement while he patiently waited. He got the message very quickly. As for the kids who sometimes help exercise this young and energetic animal, now the kids give him a hand signal for him to stay back and he waits until the toy is thrown. Basically a bit of an obedience routine was incorporated into their interactions with him and he now willingly does things differently, without the lunging and ear piercing racket that used to precede his outings with the toy and his retrieving them from the lake. Why were these things not made a part of early training sessions with this guide when it was in training? 

What seems lacking here in this discussion is any mention of the love of learning itself. I've attended training seminars where cheese was thrown at dogs like confetti. I found it degrading and belittling to appeal to an animal solely on those grounds. I've taught new behaviors that my dog was chomping at the bit to work on, no food used at all. Novelty was the key in those environments, being upbeat, being in the limelight. At home a bit of turkey now and again did the trick to motivate my dog to work harder at learning something new such as looking for and picking up dropped objects, but certainly I never needed to persist in giving food rewards to get that glove ppicked up out of the snow when dropped.
I think it was Jeff who already said that a high drive would be a lot to handle and not appropriate for just anyone. Amen. If a trainer can't get anywhere
with this dog, how is a person who knows little or nothing about training, reinforcement and diminishers, going to manage the dog since it appears the dog is hardly reliable on more than one front? It's a disaster waiting to happen. What an odd reversal of things persons with various disabilities deal with. I would think that someone with limited mobility, even though they are sighted, doesn't need to be worrying about a dog who cannot be relied upon to be present in the moment without being wickedly food distracted or gone the minute food is present. I think someone already gave the example of a guide dog rushing it's owner to the curb just to get the treat, but a dog who cannot easily be physically restrained if necessary or a dog jerking his handler around and putting their safety in jeopardy is not worth the risk. Also let me mention that to read body language is wonderful but also being proactive and training for excellent ease and behavior in all kinds of environments is essential to preventinng wreckless handling and dangerous unwanted interactions out in public as well as around the house. Many things need to be trained for up front incorporating the most challenging of situations, environments, distractions, etc.
I loved this comment below. I think it makes a great point about the difference between respect and interest in the trainer vs... getting to the food. The relationship is clearly very disrespectful. I think that mutual respect is one requirement to help foster cooperation ...
Julie wrote: It seems to me that with using external motivators, you have to be very careful not to allow the dogs primary motivation to become the motivator, instead of the handler, the teacher/student relationship, and the accountability and pride in a job well done. This is where the 'everybody works for a paycheck' theory falls flat for me.
Ok, I'm out of here. I'd definitely prioritize this issue as something to deal with, step 1, and 3 strikes you're out, that goes for trainer and dog alike. I'm smiling. I'm not faultless!


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

*Re: where are those high standards*



deidre muccio said:


> ... What seems lacking here in this discussion is any mention of the love of learning itself. I've attended training seminars where cheese was thrown at dogs like confetti. ..... I've taught new behaviors that my dog was chomping at the bit to work on, no food used at all. ....


There's a biiiiig range between "throwing cheese like confetti" and "no food at all."


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: I forget, with all that success you have....Who am I to talk.

James, please don't stop talking, just stop giving advice. I pointed out to you to very valid reasons why you don't have the experience to do so, but you should ask questions instead of getting all ego'd up.

I know people that go to the podium that cannot answer a lot of these questions, which again, shows how you should be asking questions, not responding with advice.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Mo, using a Malinois as an example................LOL


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Deidre, please space your reply's out a bit. I am getting old, and it is hard to read clumped up like that.


----------



## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

MO, do not worry. 

Whenever Jeff hits a problem in training he has one solution that works for everything.

He sells it.


----------



## deidre muccio (May 3, 2008)

*Re: where are those high standards*

Yes, there is... and when it's not needed it's not needed. I knew my dog and knew what motivated her and what she took delight in. I find the use of primary reinforcers the finest of arts and to this day still find it challenging. Why foster a snooty or dependent attitude when there is true joy to be taken in a particular endeavor itself?


deidre muccio said:


> I'm perplexed, but maybe I shouldn't be. If this animal has been in training since it was 6 weeks of age, why is the mouthiness issue still an issue? I guess it's not uncommon though it is troublesome, truly a big gap in the overall training plan.
> I've worked guide dogs since 89 and my last guide came to me quite mouthy. It was odd that someone decided to let her pass without having gone back and worked on that before turning her over to me. Luckily, though I am blind, I am usually extremely aware of what is going on around me and with the dog in my charge.
> When first home with my last guide dog, after she bruised a few cheekks and even bit mine, I had to guard kids against her mouthiness while I had time to teach her to be gentle. Though this was not a food issue at all with my guide, I do find what Anne describes to be a common problem, whether it involves a service dog or neighbor's pet. It is now one of the first things I work on with grabby pups and adult dogs as well. It never seemed to be a hard thing to teach, that is ... that food (or a toy in hand for that matter) is not yours until a "take it" is given. There's little I hate more than a dog mugging me for food and there are no less important real safety concerns well worth thinking about.
> Due to the blindness, I work up close. First rule of order is the animal needs to understand that it's teeth and mouth need to remain soft and gentle and it's head and snout back and off, no contact unless invited. That goes for whether or not I have food on me or if he or she is rushing to knock heads with me out of sheer exuberance.
> ...


----------



## deidre muccio (May 3, 2008)

*apologyRe: Food Rewards*

Apology Jeff

. I use a screen reader and it is difficult to figure out how to not get bumped out of the edit box. 

I'll try putting a blank line between paragraphs to solve the problem of staying off the tab key which I use to go from section to section. 

Please let me know if this posts reads any better. 

How do I get rid of the smileys?

Hey I passed your new kid on the block test? No rib pokes yet?



Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Mo, using a Malinois as an example................LOL


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

At least you are not giving advice James, and that is the important issue.

Haven't sold a dog in years. LOL


----------



## deidre muccio (May 3, 2008)

I screwed up and didn't even reply to the right post.



Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Deidre, please space your reply's out a bit. I am getting old, and it is hard to read clumped up like that.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Hey I passed your new kid on the block test? No rib pokes yet?

You will be getting it soon. LOL


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Julie Kinsey said:


> Anne, you wrote, in your original post:
> 
> "She has been trained with food. Crazy food drive! I've been doing self-control exercises as part of every training session since she was 6 weeks old and the food drive is getting out-of-hand. She get over-enthusiastic about food reward (just her kibble) and bites my hand - even when she has to sit and "leave it." I withhold the reward (no matter how perfect the behavior) if she tries to grab at my hand or take the reward to quickly. She has been corrected HARD for snapping for food."
> 
> ...


One thing I want to keep is the bouncing in and out of behaviors. I rely on this in training certain behaviors.

Pretty-gorgeous-responsive: ears up, eyes bright, light on her feet, actively working to figure out what I'm going to ask for, attentive, drops into attention heeling.

This is the dog that I screwed up by using IB's. As soon as I went away from that, she improved.

I expect her to be totally calm and chill, but when asked to do something to immediately respond, perform the behavior and return to her calm state.

I think I need someone to watch me, the other dog trainers around here are not going to be helpful on this.


----------



## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> At least you are not giving advice James, and that is the important issue.
> 
> Haven't sold a dog in years. LOL


At least your not charging for advice....That's when the real crime would start.LOL


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

> I think it was Jeff who already said that a high drive would be a lot to handle and not appropriate for just anyone. Amen. If a trainer can't get anywhere with this dog, how is a person who knows little or nothing about training, reinforcement and diminishers, going to manage the dog since it appears the dog is hardly reliable on more than one front?


You're coming into this late. This certainly isn't "can't get anywhere with this dog"! You can look down in the forum to find her training journal. I'm down to the splitting-hairs part of training. 

Basically, I expect her to be a robot and she's a dog :lol: I want to see minor improvements on the manner in which she performs behaviors.

I've spent some time on the leave-it / recall with general overall improvement. Putting down a fabulous chew hoof treat, letting her chew on it and getting totally focused on it, and then calling her off for a lower-value reward (one kibble) :lol:


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Basically, I expect her to be a robot and she's a dog.

That is where the middle of the road dogs do well.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: At least your not charging for advice....That's when the real crime would start.LOL

**Mod delete paragraph**

Got to know your limits, and this is just beyond you. Can't just repeat some shit you read once.


----------



## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: At least your not charging for advice....That's when the real crime would start.LOL
> 
> **Mod deleted paragraph**
> 
> Got to know your limits, and this is just beyond you. Can't just repeat some shit you read once.


 
A lot...I have had my tits ripped off on that board. But I have learned a lot from doing so. I am not afraid to argue for the benefit of coming to a conclusion.

..... mod delete ....

Lisa Maze enlightened me on the power of reward schedules and thier effect on behavior. She did reccomend some reading, "How Dogs Learn" By Dr. Bausch and Dr. Bailey. It was then I decided to do some experimenting with Reward Schedules. Jeff, I used to spout the same BS about "rewarding mood". This was in an effort to try and impress people and make it look like I knew what I was talking about. Through the experimtation with reward schedules. I have found that to be BS. So, My experinece is a bit more than reading.



And as for questions....I did ask. Is rewarding mood Operant Conditioning or Classical Conditioning?


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

James Downey said:


> Is rewarding mood Operant Conditioning or Classical Conditioning?


When used as "perception modification" it is counter-conditioning. It can be done in both operant and classical conditioning.


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

It's sooooo boring (as well as against one of the VERY few rules here) when you drag stuff from another board onto this one.


And back to the thread .....


----------



## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Anne Vaini said:


> When used as "perception modification" it is counter-conditioning. It can be done in both operant and classical conditioning.


Ann, I get you on that....and I am with you. But....

Modification is different than Reinforcing. Modification indicates something will change, Rewarding indicates something will continue or likely occur again.


Jeff is claiming that giving a dog a treat for being dull will reiforce it's dullness...not Modify the dullness.

Actually your Perception Modification post is exactly what I am talking about. The moment in time the reward is delivered can change the dogs perception about the situation. I think a lot of fast dogs eventually go slow, because the trainer makes the dog hold the sit for a time before rewarding. What's been rewarded?...stagnation has been rewarded. Marking and rewarding sits immediatly is rewarding the dog for moving.Also, The value of the reward can change the dogs perception about the activity. 

And with sitting slow, if the dog is slow all the time....You will never reward by the with holding reward method....which means that the behavior will eventually go extinct. 

And if the dog has Extinction Bursts from with holding the reward....well were not dealing with a low drive dog...are we.

I think these are the only 3 things that can cause a dog to move slower or faster in terms of reward. And you need drive for the food for all three. 

If the dog is low....Then the dog is just low drive. No matter how much wish, feed, not feed, pray, get new fancy toys, feed steak....if the dog is not motivated for the food. You are not going to change anything, no matter how, or when you reward. With holding food on a dog that does not care about food, is not going to make faster sits. nor will cause slow sits. The dog just does not care about food. 

And as Jeff states, you can try starving a low drive dog. But again....I have a feeling your training is going to be limited no matter what. The dog is never going to preform reliablely...unless it's starving. This will be a life long ordeal for the dog. The drive is based on starvation. Not from a genetic trait via selective breeding..Now I know Jeff asked me "what PETA trainer told me a dog needs to eat everyday"...For the amount we like to train. I think eating more than every 3 or 4 days is going to be necassary. And I have a feeling the dogs desire to perform will decrease rapidly as it starts to get satiated with food

Now you can try making the dog avoid something unpleasent. But that's a whole different thread.


----------



## deidre muccio (May 3, 2008)

*the ib*

The ib ruined your dog? What a statement! I can only wonder what you are talking about or how you attempted to use it. 
I know no greater tool than the ib for getting duration on behaviors, spelling out parimeters, time lines, all kinds of things. 
Even when I was new to training it was evident how it kept me and my dog on the same track together, talk about beautiful.

Ann wrote: 
This is the dog that I screwed up by using IB's. As soon as I went away from that, she improved.


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

*Re: the ib*



deidre muccio said:


> The ib ruined your dog? What a statement! I can only wonder what you are talking about or how you attempted to use it.
> I know no greater tool than the ib for getting duration on behaviors, spelling out parimeters, time lines, all kinds of things.
> Even when I was new to training it was evident how it kept me and my dog on the same track together, talk about beautiful.
> 
> ...


Not going to go over this again on this thread. Again - you're coming into this late. This is detailed in her training log thread, along with video. Posted on the forum in the Service Dog section.


----------



## deidre muccio (May 3, 2008)

*a robot like dog*

You didn't really mean to say that did you?

I saw a long list of impressive tasks this dog has learned. Bravo. I'd love to have such a dog in my household.

Honestly, a robot? And what is the point in teaching a dog to zone out on something than set it up to have that taken away? I understand the point of the lesson but it sounds like doing something just for the sake of it. I think those kinds of lessons can be proofed in many different contexts and probabgly should be. 

There's a difference between being jerked around and being respectful and clear about what is wanted and why. 




Anne Vaini said:


> You're coming into this late. This certainly isn't "can't get anywhere with this dog"! You can look down in the forum to find her training journal. I'm down to the splitting-hairs part of training.
> 
> Basically, I expect her to be a robot and she's a dog :lol: I want to see minor improvements on the manner in which she performs behaviors.
> 
> I've spent some time on the leave-it / recall with general overall improvement. Putting down a fabulous chew hoof treat, letting her chew on it and getting totally focused on it, and then calling her off for a lower-value reward (one kibble) :lol:


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

*Re: a robot like dog*



deidre muccio said:


> You didn't really mean to say that did you?
> 
> I saw a long list of impressive tasks this dog has learned. Bravo. I'd love to have such a dog in my household.
> 
> ...


She has to recall off anything! How can you have a dog with excellent public access behavior without a solid recall in all distractions?

This isn't her being jerked around - this is off-leash training. Allowing her free choice to comply. 

One of my end goals is retrieving and depositing high-value food items. Right now she will retrieve/deposit low-value food items. I was cooking and dropped the butt of a head of celery on the floor - and had Emma pick it up and put it in the trash. that's getting closer to getting her to retrieve a hot dog. (which is the behavior that I use to define whether the goal is met).


----------



## deidre muccio (May 3, 2008)

*Re: a robot like dog*

Well, that is much clearer. Thanks. 


Anne Vaini said:


> She has to recall off anything! How can you have a dog with excellent public access behavior without a solid recall in all distractions?
> 
> This isn't her being jerked around - this is off-leash training. Allowing her free choice to comply.
> 
> One of my end goals is retrieving and depositing high-value food items. Right now she will retrieve/deposit low-value food items. I was cooking and dropped the butt of a head of celery on the floor - and had Emma pick it up and put it in the trash. that's getting closer to getting her to retrieve a hot dog. (which is the behavior that I use to define whether the goal is met).


----------



## deidre muccio (May 3, 2008)

*naming things*

Anne it sounds like fun around there. I doubt I'd have half your stamina.

I remember a teacher of canine water sports having her dog go retrieve her treat bag and willingly he did without attempting to get into it. 
I remember too how many years ago one of my guides once brought me a dog bone that she found in the yard of a favorite neighbor dog. She dropped it right in my lap and I was momentarily taken aback, forgetting to praise her up big time for that one. I in my idiocy was more stuck on that she even picked it up. 

On harness the same dog would walk over dropped food, french fries, dog bones, marrow bones ... any day of the week without even dropping her head. No doubt that was due to good proofing by her trainers and by the dog's willingness to give me the time of day.

Anyway I get that a hot dog might well be more of a temptation than a head of celery for many a dog but food is food and chomping anything down without permission is off limits no matter, right?

Many people have little or no objection to their dogs cleaning the kitchen flors for them. A service dog in training though, what you think?

Luckily the guides turned over to me in years past didn't have food mugging or scavenging problems but some certainly do. Many are dropped from a program just for that. 

Other dogs that come into this house learn real fast that there's no counter surfing or banging on the closet door to raid the food bag. It's mostly a matter of attention to a particular dog on my part and demand for respect. Lessons with hand feeding with nothing given until the animal is at ease, attentive, fine, but at ease,has never been a protocol hard to teach. Up the challenge and it still involves the same elements, the dog waits until it is given an ok to take it. 

This sort of thing is one reason why I love sitting on the floor and eating with a visitor dog nearby -whether it be a young pup or adult dog. It's an easy way to get a dog accustomed to the presence of food no matter if it's a plate of turkey or carrots or the pizza box open with the pizza still hot and ready for my consumption alone. 

When a dog learns to respect that boundary then I have no reservation about sharing a meal with them. They "get it" one of my least favorite sayings.

You've already said, and yes I'm new here, that Emma is food driven. That's where what you say about how quick she is to do all kinds of things for a food reward and nothing short of that, gets complicated. 

I'd love to see this dog find motivation in doing the tasks you've set out for her for the fun of it. Ok, I'm ducking. 

btw for the record, I usually only train for specific behaviors in the various contexts I want or need. I don't do it for a living only for day to day practicality. There is still plenty of work to be done there when working with the dogs of friends or with dogs at SATS training seminars where I might be coaching. There's never any shortage of things to work on for building focus, teaching targeting skills, fine tuning various skills, helping a person better communicate with their particular dog, broadening both their horizons, an not the least helping dogs learn to control themselves in all kinds of contexts.

Anne wrote:
One of my end goals is retrieving and depositing high-value food items. Right now she will retrieve/deposit low-value food items. I was cooking and dropped the butt of a head of celery on the floor - and had Emma pick it up and put it in the trash. that's getting closer to getting her to retrieve a hot dog. (which is the behavior that I use to define whether the goal is met).[/quote]


----------



## deidre muccio (May 3, 2008)

*Re: naming things*

Blew that subject heading. I had intended on talking about the power of naming things just as some insist on the necessity of breaking every behavior needed to be learned down into all it's components. I won't bother, I'm sure you've heard it all before.

I was imagining seing Emma serving dinner, plates and all.


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

> Many people have little or no objection to their dogs cleaning the kitchen flors for them. A service dog in training though, what you think?


I have a cue for cleaning up the floor. A useful task! :lol:

I dropped a treat bag on the floor during training - and it really was an accident. She did retrieve it!

I did some work in the kitchen about a month ago with having her put food wrappers in the trash. That made a big difference!

She does well, I don't like the attitude change that happens *sometimes* without food. I don't see it so much on tasks, but on other house-manners things.

But I still have the question if anyone has taken a primarily food-motivated dog and removed food with no consequences.


----------



## deidre muccio (May 3, 2008)

Good question at that. 
I don't do a 1 on 1 ratio when training but I sure am used to dogs who are used to being stuffed with treats for every thing through an entire day from day 1 til the last day of their lives. Talk about a projection, people who think this is the only thing that will command a dog's attention or love. 
Withdrawing the dependence of food is an adjustment but building the relationship and letting the dog get over it's initial sulkiness is not an impossibility.
Try doing this in a new contexxt or setting, perhaps one in which the atmosphere is a bit more novel. Attitude is everything. Don't shoot!--I'm smiling. 

Anne wrote:
But I still have the question if anyone has taken a primarily food-motivated dog and removed food with no consequences.[/quote]


----------



## deidre muccio (May 3, 2008)

Sorry, my last post was probably not particularly helpful. 
First, even in clicker training, food is withdrawn once a behavior is learned. Isn't that so?
Try teaching a new behavior altogether and random reward. Time the dog out if it isn't interested in cooperating with you at any given moment.
Set the dog up for aquick success. Ask for 3 starts at 1 behavior or a ssequence of easy behaviors one after the other, mark quick and emphatic with whatever bridge you've conditioned, click or X. If it is going well, just continue to random reward. 
Not being a clicker trainer, I don't hold food on my body. The dog may know it's on the counter in the kitchen or on a table at my side, and that is the beauty of the X, the dog knows it must perform the action and knows exactly when that behavior is achieved, and the X promises something, sometimes food, sometimes not. The dogs know sure as day it's there and they might just get some - they don't mind waiting. 
What you said you've seen in Emma in the ring for instance, and what many hopefully see, is a burst of energy, the sheer joy of having solved a problem or done something to my specifications.
Once again, I don't need to food reward for things already learned. 
As for building duration, if you don't like using something like an "ib" try counting or telling your animal up front how long you want him or her to hold on something ("1, 2, 3, 4, X" or persist in a particular effort. You don't have to always sequentially up the challenge. 
In all of this, the training, in the relationship, is where the robot analogy turns me off. I want to feel the spark in any particular animal, and yeah for sure, it's sometimes real hard getting on the same wave length with a particular animal.


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

deidre muccio said:


> Anne wrote:
> But I still have the question if anyone has taken a primarily food-motivated dog and removed food with no consequences.


Had to go back to Page 1, because I couldn't believe that Anne was asking whether the food rewards used to teach new behaviors and then gradually lessened to random will have negative consequences. (I agree with Bob that this makes for very eager compliance in a foody dog. :lol: ) I get it now. There was more to it. :lol:

So why can't the food rewards be hidden around the place? The slot machine effect?


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Well, Deidre, I was typing part of what you posted as you posted it.

:lol:


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I'm having a hard time following some of this. 
Why would food reward EVER be entirely removed if food is a strong motivator? 
If the behaviour goes down then the reward isn't high enough. It could also be extinguished if the reward is given for every behaviour before the trainer has learned to chain behaviours together. 
One disadvantage in using food as a reward is when the trainer doesn't understand the difference between a reward and a bribe. 
Without the "bribe" the dog won't perform at it's best or, a good chance not at all. If a high value "reward" is anticipated there is no reason why the behaviour should weaken. 
The idea is to convince the dog that the reward WILL come. That could be at the end of an AKC OB routine, a Schutzhund routine, etc. That's developed with random reward. 
Good training is good training! The method is secondary.


----------



## Jaimie Van Orden (Dec 3, 2008)

Anne Vaini said:


> She has been trained with food. Crazy food drive! I've been doing self-control exercises as part of every training session since she was 6 weeks old and the food drive is getting out-of-hand. She get over-enthusiastic about food reward (just her kibble) and bites my hand - even when she has to sit and "leave it." I withhold the reward (no matter how perfect the behavior) if she tries to grab at my hand or take the reward to quickly. She has been corrected HARD for snapping for food.
> 
> She works fine without food reward, but it's not as pretty gorgeous or responsive as I would like. I am sure that over time, her training would fall apart. If she believes there is a chance of food or tug BOOM! :lol: high in drive and very accurate obedience (paired with sucky duration).


That was in the OP i think it answers your question...


----------



## deidre muccio (May 3, 2008)

Bob
If you are referring to my post I was saying that once a behavior is learned and proofed food need not be used to keep the dog reliably performing that behavior. Is that what you found hard to believe or the issue of why food might not be used at all in early stages training? When teaching new behaviors, I for one, random reward and do just fine with that. In clicker my understanding is that the click and thus the food is prolonged drawn out and the criteria rasied as the animal progresses. Once learned and well proofed... well you clicker trainers can say how often you food reward after that point.
My guide (recently deceased,) all my guides for that matter, worked for hours on and off each day day in and out year after year and I never needed to produce treats when out on the street working. They had a bounce in their step, strutted their stuff, did a great job, I dare say had a grand old time being out in the world together with me.


Bob Scott said:


> I'm having a hard time following some of this.
> Why would food reward EVER be entirely removed if food is a strong motivator?
> If the behaviour goes down then the reward isn't high enough. It could also be extinguished if the reward is given for every behaviour before the trainer has learned to chain behaviours together.
> One disadvantage in using food as a reward is when the trainer doesn't understand the difference between a reward and a bribe.
> ...


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

deidre muccio said:


> Once learned and well proofed... well you clicker trainers can say how often you food reward after that point. .... I never needed to produce treats when out on the street working.


1. "Marker trainer" for me, but I do use a clicker sometimes. 
2. Randomly
3. Neither do I

There's either a common misconception or a common odd use of marker training, I think, about using food as bribes, which is what the above kinda sounds like. I can't see otherwise how it could "need to be produced on the street."

Even with the original question, re-posted just above, I'm still not sure how the dog knows when there is no food reward, unless maybe that telegraphing hand in the bait bag wasn't corrected. 

Deidre, I think Bob's post was to the O.P. For me, this part is also to the O.P.: _Even with the original question, re-posted just above, I'm still not sure how the dog knows when there is no food reward, unless maybe that telegraphing hand in the bait bag wasn't corrected. _


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Deidre, I think Bob's post was to the O.P. For me, this part is also to the O.P.: _Even with the original question, re-posted just above, I'm still not sure how the dog knows when there is no food reward, unless maybe that telegraphing hand in the bait bag wasn't corrected. _


After Emma ATE her bait bag, I went without for quite a while (like until I paid of the surgery). When I bought another one, I started wearing it a different way to fix MY problem. 

I've thought about this now. I'm not sure it is actually the food. It may just be other cues that indicate the beginning of training.

I don't always carry food on my person - less than 50%. I have treat bags stashed around the house - 1 spot is in a basket hanging on the front door.

She's fine in training before I get out the food or go to any of the locations that I usually stash it. I MAY TRAIN FOR 10 - 15 MINUTES BEFORE THE FIRST FOOD REWARD. (Random schedule of reward..)

But there's a distinct "on" and "off" mode. I don't like her behavior in the "off" mode.

I don't know what she is cueing off of. I train off and on leash equally. She is collar wise, but she knows that the collar is not the only source of control - it only seems to affect her accuracy in heeling. I don't change her routine to train. (At least, I don't think that I do...)

When she was a puppy, I was living with my parents and every session was set up - bring her inside, get out the treats, put them on the table... I think I created a problem for myself.

I don't know what she is cueing off of now - it may not be the food at all. I'll have to "watch myself" and try to figure it out.


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Anne Vaini said:


> When she was a puppy, I was living with my parents and every session was set up - bring her inside, get out the treats, put them on the table... I think I created a problem for myself.
> 
> I don't know what she is cueing off of now - it may not be the food at all. I'll have to "watch myself" and try to figure it out.


Ditto and ditto.

Video is good! (I can say that much more easily than I can do it. Which I can't.)


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Anne Vaini said:


> .... bring her inside, get out the treats, put them on the table... I think I created a problem for myself..


I've done that. Good learning experience.


----------



## Kat LaPlante (May 17, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> OK spoil sport, lets start at the beginning. When this happens, start a new thread, and tell us what you are experiencing, and what you would like to change exactly.
> 
> Here is a hint. when you reward a dog, you are rewarding not only the behavior, but the MOOD of the dog as well.
> 
> ...


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Kat, do you have a comment or question? 

Can you pull out your own words if they are buried in that quote?

Thanks.


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Is this it?

_*I am looking to create quicker, more accurate behavior in my dog, this requires him to be REALLY hungry, how long can I keep him hungary for, right now missing 1.5 days of food is not enough?? *_

If so, we need more info.


----------



## Kat LaPlante (May 17, 2009)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Kat, do you have a comment or question?
> 
> Can you pull out your own words if they are buried in that quote?
> 
> Thanks.


Ha Ha, woops. I have gone 1.5 days without feeding my dog to make him more responsive to food rewards, is this OK? (that was the question in a nutshell)


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Kat LaPlante said:


> Ha Ha, woops. I have gone 1.5 days without feeding my dog to make him more responsive to food rewards, is this OK? (that was the question in a nutshell)


What result did you get from that (probably the bigger question)?

What are you training? How old is the dog?


----------



## Kat LaPlante (May 17, 2009)

The result was eagerness to do a task properly and quickly as he was excited for food. The dog is 9 months old, I am doing basic obiedience, really focusing on attention, I am having such a hard time following the "rules". I have listened to alot of what the people have to say on this forum....and realized I have no idea what I was doing in every aspect other than making a potentially great working dog turn into a low drive/no drive pet.Constant attenttion, sleeps on the bed, no crate/kennel, eat when you want, have treats whenever, inside dog, yikes!! I really thought I could have this formidable eager dog and a great family friend as well. So now I want to know, can I start over? Hence the food question.


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Kat LaPlante said:


> The result was eagerness to do a task properly and quickly as he was excited for food. The dog is 9 months old, I am doing basic obiedience, really focusing on attention, I am having such a hard time following the "rules". I have listened to alot of what the people have to say on this forum....and realized I have no idea what I was doing in every aspect other than making a potentially great working dog turn into a low drive/no drive pet.Constant attenttion, sleeps on the bed, no crate/kennel, eat when you want, have treats whenever, inside dog, yikes!! I really thought I could have this formidable eager dog and a great family friend as well. So now I want to know, can I start over? Hence the food question.


OK, a real question would help. 

Focus? Is that what you are working on?

What "work" were you hoping to train for?

Were you asking if you could withhold food for a day and a half to get eager responses in marker training? My answer would be yeah, I guess, if you give plenty of water, but holy crap, what are you doing to need to withhold food for that long? Was the dog overfed, so uninterested in rewards? Or is he a no-food-drive dog?

Are you using food as a bribe, by the way? (Is it displayed to the dog before the command?)


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

OK, I have coffee now.

Those were all real questions. Ignore the tone and the holy crap part. :lol:


----------

