# Hrd historical vs fresh



## julie allen

Typically we train on material from 1 week old.to 30 years old. Most of my aides are within 2years. I have a few dry bones, lots of wet stuff, cremains, and teeth. 
I have tissue, bone, placenta, blood, teeth, ashes, mostly small. I do have two large sources, both legs. It's interesting to see the dogs that are used to small sources, they tend to get overwhelmed with the source, and have a harder time pinpointing where to alert.

Same with very fresh tissue and bone. The dogs that are worked on old source, tend to work this very meticulously, some seem almost scared of it, especially a large fresh aide. I have seen some want to eat it, or roll in the fresh samples.

Greta is slower on very old bone. The longer it stays out, especially if humidity is high, the better she alerts, and faster. Libby is so new to this, she catches the odor and plops down fast. Old or new.

We worked a cemetery from the early 1800s. Donnas dog who specifically works historic graves, hit everyone pretty fast. Greta was very interested, wanted to dig ugh, but wasn't allowed. So she never alerted. One grave had a huge oak tree beside it, and Greta wanted to climb it trying to work the source. Libby nosed and alerted on a few! She has been training for a few months. 
Greta is pretty easy to read, and I could get her on the historic stuff pretty fast, but its not really what I'm interested in. 

It was great to see how different the dogs responded on the aides. We worked some water, with fresher aides, that both girls did awesome on, it sat overnight. Some dogs worked it the first night, we went the second day, and you could really "see" how the scent cone and pool changed, how it went to vegetation, and the mud, even though it was quite a way off shore. 

Jim, what about old bones that have been in water the entire time. Setting out old stuff in water is different I'm sure, than bones that have been underwater for thirty years.


----------



## Jim Delbridge

julie allen said:


> Jim, what about old bones that have been in water the entire time. Setting out old stuff in water is different I'm sure, than bones that have been underwater for thirty years.


 
Water makes any HRs problem easier. I used to start dogs on wet fresh teeth as most were drawn to it.
Once bone is leached of adipose tissue, the environment depends on its continued longevity. I was given 200 year old teeth by an anthropologist. i put these in a cotton ball in a glass container and dry. They'd been in wet soil, so the dry air turned them to dust in less than a year. 
I was talking to an old HR dog handler whose been a FEMA dog handler since and is now thinking about getting back into HR. I had gone to the bathroom in a local restaurant and when I returned all my compatriots were grinning at her and me. Seems she has the same attitude about water that I do in that if the dog can work buried then it can work water with minimal transition time. She was recounting having lost a historic level bone out of a container at water training and using her dog to target it for the divers to find. It wasn't in the water longterm, but my point is the scent still rises to the surface of the water. 
There's a lake locally that I've located drowning victims in several times over the years. Each time I work the dogs in one area, they always target a spot that isn't explainable by where we locate the victim. I took my new baby bass boat out for it's maiden voyage two weeks ago and, for grins, took my historic dog over the area. He never got to work any of the drownings in that area. I just had the driver troll over the area to see what he'd do. I watched him rather than the landmarks and he suddenly rose up then did a touch. I looked up and we were at the same point previous dogs had targeted. I'd made some inquiries and the old locals think there was an old cemetery about there prior to the area being flooded as a man made lake. That would put the bones at around 120 years plus in the lake bottom. The authorities are happy to leave the area alone as no one is missing.
I do know I had to pick up a partial skull from the same lake a couple of years back at another location and our anthropologist stated it was ancient native american, so just put it back near where it was found (it's a native american thing, as in nature can do what it wants to their bones, but let no human disturb them).

I'm not sure if there is an underwater "body farm", so longevity of bones in water is probably an incomplete subject yet to be studied.

Jim


----------



## Craig Snyder

Jim Delbridge said:


> I'm not sure if there is an underwater "body farm", so longevity of bones in water is probably an incomplete subject yet to be studied.
> 
> Jim


Thanks to both you and Julie for posting on this topic. Fascinating.

I tried researching decomp in water once before but I came up with nothing. I don't know if any of the body farms have done any work on this or not. My reason for researching it is that I wanted to see if there was any scientific data, (vs. the common knowledge from handlers and fire personnel that recover bodies all the time), on lake/water temperature, depth of lake, pH, water quality, etc... on the decomp process. I know some fire personnel that routinely recover bodies from the Delaware River that can almost pinpoint when and where the body will come up depending on time of year, currents, tides, etc.. (Delaware Memorial Bridge usually has several jumpers a year).

We kind of know that if the bodies sink at first, that in a few days they usually rise due to decomp gases. I also understand that they can sink again in some conditions. And of course the local aquatic life play a big role. 

But my intital inquiry was if there were any controlled temperature/decomp studies to help determine the best times to recanvas an area, such as a lake, with or without water dogs.

Some lakes are notorious for not giving up their dead. (usually deep and cold, i.e. Lake Superior and Lake Champlain are two I've heard of). Deep quarry's I would think could be another. 

I would think that an average temperature and depth chart could be developed that would help predict when a body might start to rise and when maximum gases are being given off. So if the initial search in the first 24 hrs fails to recover a body, a chart like that might help predict the best time to schedule a secondary search. I.e. when decomp gases are at full throtle for dogs, or if no dogs are available, when a boat crew might be able to spot a body rising up from the boat. That could help maximize success and deployment of resources. 

Just kind of thinking out loud here...

Craig


----------



## julie allen

Craig I have a sheet that breaks that down pretty simply. It covers new victims, and explains drownings sink, where death then falling into the water floats, for a certain amount of time. 
I believe its typical for 8 hours to he normal for dogs to alert on water recoveries, though a little while back I had one in four hours. But yes temperature, depth, current, all play a big part in water.


----------



## Bart Karmich

julie allen said:


> I have seen some want to eat it, or roll in the fresh samples.


You have to explain to me if cadaver dogs primarily work for a positive reinforcer of the alert behaviors and a reward that is paired with the target odors or if they just get off on the target odors themselves. I always understood it was the former, but I can see how some of the fresh stuff could be pretty appealing by itself.

I encounter a lot of dry bones walking my dog. Truckloads of it. He has no interest. But the fresh stuff is the bomb. I can't imagine trying to interest him in a cookie when he's made a find like that. I'm not even sure I could get his attention for long enough to think what a dumb ass I must be.

Just to clarify, I've never encountered anything outside a known graveyard that I've identified as HR... just a lot of bones and carcass parts strewn all over. I figure it's all animal. My dog doesn't have any HRD skill, he just loves a fresh stink.


----------



## Jim Delbridge

Bart Karmich said:


> You have to explain to me if cadaver dogs primarily work for a positive reinforcer of the alert behaviors and a reward that is paired with the target odors or if they just get off on the target odors themselves. I always understood it was the former, but I can see how some of the fresh stuff could be pretty appealing by itself.
> 
> I encounter a lot of dry bones walking my dog. Truckloads of it. He has no interest. But the fresh stuff is the bomb. I can't imagine trying to interest him in a cookie when he's made a find like that. I'm not even sure I could get his attention for long enough to think what a dumb ass I must be.
> 
> Just to clarify, I've never encountered anything outside a known graveyard that I've identified as HR... just a lot of bones and carcass parts strewn all over. I figure it's all animal. My dog doesn't have any HRD skill, he just loves a fresh stink.


 
A floatation list (just from a quick search): http://www.pawsoflife.org/Library/Trailing Water/body_float_info.pdf

As for Bart's question, that's opening up a big can of worms with all the theories. I personally pick dogs that love the scent of human remains, tissue and skeletal, as puppies. Many handlers wait until a dog is 12-18 months and train using ball drive. I test for ball drive just because it gives me a ready-made reward system AND Distraction. I've created some pretty obnoxious sources. The more obnoxious a source my dogs find, the less likely they are to share it with me unless they know a reward is coming. They do the work because they love the scent. I believe its the genetic extreme of the dogs that survived by masking their scent in dead stuff to be able to be close to prey. 
Certainly not all dogs make decedent cadaver dogs just like not all dogs make good trailers or hunters/pointers/etc. Especially in historic work as it can be very laborious, the dog has to love the scent work for its own reward.

gotta run, having dinner with my mom tonight. She's 82 and a pip.


Jim Delbridge


----------



## Nancy Jocoy

We have had a number of finds in 2-3 hours. Grim had one 3 hours post the accident at 75 feet. 

Good topic.

Will come back later cant really post right now - I understand what Jim is saying but a question .... the main thing we teach our dogs with water training is how to tell us how to move the boat by moving around on the boat, mainly at the bow. 

First few times they try to walk off the boat and it is not moving fast enough to get to source. They have to develop a feeling for how the boat, not their body, has to get to source.

How do you work that out without any training. That is really the only training we do since they already know how to work odor to source but just can't do it in a natural way because of the boat.

Our team has had good success on water both with finding and pinpointing but virtually all of them have been within a few hours of drowing - 

The longer they are down there the more odor and it spreads all over the place and gets harder not easier, JMO (particularly if they are in shallow water)......but we got to working with wind at our backs when possible casting in diagonals and the dog will do a j hook when they hit odor then we can fine tune. Dawn and Dusk best for us either right after the divers come out that afternoon or in the am before they put them in. good times for air to move across the water but not a lot of changing winds...also tends to hold closer to the surface and not go straight up.


----------



## julie allen

Bart Karmich said:


> You have to explain to me if cadaver dogs primarily work for a positive reinforcer of the alert behaviors and a reward that is paired with the target odors or if they just get off on the target odors themselves. I always understood it was the former, but I can see how some of the fresh stuff could be pretty appealing by itself.
> 
> I encounter a lot of dry bones walking my dog. Truckloads of it. He has no interest. But the fresh stuff is the bomb. I can't imagine trying to interest him in a cookie when he's made a find like that. I'm not even sure I could get his attention for long enough to think what a dumb ass I must be.
> 
> Just to clarify, I've never encountered anything outside a known graveyard that I've identified as HR... just a lot of bones and carcass parts strewn all over. I figure it's all animal. My dog doesn't have any HRD skill, he just loves a fresh stink.


Both to a point. Some dogs don't like cadaver at all. They will avoid it. Some are fascinated. And some want to eat it lol. 

I prefer training similar to narcotic dogs, the toy is the reward for an alert at source. But I trained with narcotic k9 handlers for 15 years, so it was just easy for me to go that route. 

Either way works IMO. You can start a very young pup, or an adult. One thing different I do, is have the toy in plain view in my hand, and the dog learns to go work for the scent, not just a fake ball throw like some do. Easier to proof them from distraction toys that way I think. The dog knows the reward comes from me, but isn't getting it and won't turn to me for the toy until source is found.

It's basically the same as any detection, only.some different scenarios lime buried and underwater, and ranging from the handler.


----------



## Craig Snyder

Jim Delbridge said:


> A floatation list (just from a quick search): http://www.pawsoflife.org/Library/Trailing Water/body_float_info.pdf
> 
> Jim Delbridge


Thanks for that link! That was exactly the type of thing I was looking for. More! More! More!

It would be good to have some more detail on some of the factors mentioned. I.e. does the factor increase or decrease the time to float or decomp?

Thanks Jim!

Julie, can you post your chart somewhere? Or PM me and I'll give you an email address to send it to if you would.

Thanks!

Craig


----------



## Jim Delbridge

Nancy Jocoy said:


> We have had a number of finds in 2-3 hours. Grim had one 3 hours post the accident at 75 feet.
> 
> Good topic.
> 
> Will come back later cant really post right now - I understand what Jim is saying but a question .... the main thing we teach our dogs with water training is how to tell us how to move the boat by moving around on the boat, mainly at the bow.
> 
> First few times they try to walk off the boat and it is not moving fast enough to get to source. They have to develop a feeling for how the boat, not their body, has to get to source.
> 
> How do you work that out without any training. That is really the only training we do since they already know how to work odor to source but just can't do it in a natural way because of the boat.
> 
> Our team has had good success on water both with finding and pinpointing but virtually all of them have been within a few hours of drowing -
> 
> The longer they are down there the more odor and it spreads all over the place and gets harder not easier, JMO (particularly if they are in shallow water)......but we got to working with wind at our backs when possible casting in diagonals and the dog will do a j hook when they hit odor then we can fine tune. Dawn and Dusk best for us either right after the divers come out that afternoon or in the am before they put them in. good times for air to move across the water but not a lot of changing winds...also tends to hold closer to the surface and not go straight up.


 
Well, I crack up at the one expert that spends months teaching the dog to "steer the boat." Water work is an exercise in frustration for the dog and the most fun for the handler. Starting from a historic perspective, my dogs learn to solve the scent problems via diffusion strength. This is versus the area search dog that works primarily in a binary fashion of working to the scent/no scent border at first then learns to bounce the scent cone such that a good area search dog working scent tends to trace a question mark in the edges of the scent cone to the victim.
The nice thing about starting on skeletal/dental is the source is subtle to begin with and the dog learns to target to source by working that diffusion. 
Sooo, (Thorpe is the 2 year old that got his first boat ride in June) towards sources. We were 120 yds from the source when he suddenly begins to whine, gets up in the boat and points toward the source with his nose. I told the boat driver to turn away and we watched Thorpe follow the scent back through the boat and back again as I told the driver to turn back in towards the source. The stronger the scent got, the more animated Thorpe became. Again I had the driver turn out of the scent and now Thorpe does a touch on the edge of the boat as we left it. In a real search, I'd drop a buoy there to mark scent/no-scent boundry. My goal in a lake is to end up with five to seven buoys where they border the oil slick/scent cone on the water. The last buoy is dropped by going upwind of the source and turning back to go between the tightest two buoys. The dog should become animated in scent again when you find where the scent starts or breaks surface. Thorpe's worked seven water problems now with one being in no wind. In that situation, we're basically working a round oil slick and the dog has to find the highest diffusion point which should be the center of the oil slick. Both of my current dogs pick this point by doing a touch. In a still, a trolling motor is a must especially with a big prop stirring up the slick.

So, on Thorpe's second problem, the previous dog team that worked our "known source" cut the line with it partially wrapping around the trolling motor prop then dropping off. When I'm headed out with Thorpe, he's not responding where I expected, but over the years and with multiple dogs I decided to see where he'd take us. On that problem, we had about 4 mph wind and he began exhibitng scent in a different location nearby. I had some buoys and we used those like it was a real search....only had four though. So, dropped three and used the last to mark where he targeted. Four dogs later, his target was confirmed in his first water blind. The other dog basically slaps the edge of the boat with his paw when he's chosen. Thorpe cracked me up as I stopped the boat and told him to "show me." He moved around the boat then stopped and checked along the water's edge. He then gingerly reaches out and barely touches the water's surface with the pad of his paw. Thorpe is fairly active, so this deliberate move to target was a strong statement. ...Thorpe has trained on lots of graves previous to this and to me, water work is simply buried with a much easier medium.....water. I'd seen Thorpe mark a grave exactly the same way. Hanlders and the"experts" make water work way too complicated in my mind. The complication is variations in the environment that your locals fill in, i.e. water temp, currents in the water that aren't evident on surface, etc. Complication is if your victim was drunk on his/her ass before they went under which slows down when they'll surface as the EtOH actually slows down decomposition. Working the dog on water in a boat is just sheer fun. With moving water, you simply go upstream of the last known point above surface and then work downstream till first scent hits. You should not have to go any further downstream then that point. Unless it's a dry drowning, most drowning victims don't go far from where they went under.

In Oklahoma, most drowning victims surface within three days in all but the three coldest months. I usually go work if they don't surface within the expected time as many of our lakes are dangerous to dive in. Prior to that, usually there's too many other emergency personnel trying to do it their way for a dog to be useful.

Jim


----------



## Jim Delbridge

The warmer the water, the quicker they rise up. Usually decomposition is halted or put on hold when water temperature drops below 38F. This is why the colder climates suddenly get a bunch of floaters with an influx of warm water currents.

Jim


----------



## Steve Estrada

A couple of questions, why are the lakes dangerous for divers? Snags, silt? Do these water detection dogs do salt water? I think of water density depth etc. not that I know much about this yet the service intrigues me. Mom's 82 that's great genetics on you, can I say lucky dog here


----------



## Nancy Jocoy

We are deployed differently -- usually within a few hours of a drowning, not several days and our team has had a good find and pinpoint rate. 100% on fresh lake/pond drownings (I *think* it is around 18 since about 2006). 

Here, they usually do dive in the lakes. And it is dangerous because most of our lakes are dammed rivers which means trees, buildings, whatever are on the bottom which is pitch black.

On the rivers, well-often it is not safe to get divers in and they don't when it isn't, but on our river searches the bodies have typically come up a reasonable distance downstream and never upstream when we have gotten indications. 

I agree you don't need months and months and months to fine tune a dog already trained on the odor, but I do think it does help to teach the dog to move around on the boat and .. It is not so hard to teach that. Just put them on the odor then steer away from it and encourage them to move back towards it which helps fine tune the boat steering. The boat driver learns to shoot between the dogs ears. The dog learns that they can move about on the boat towards source without jumping in.

I think where there can be issues is that that method depends on a fairly reliable scent cone as it is taught but real life does not always give you those conditions and you have to adapt. 

Grim did not give a trained indication on the boat but he always barked in odor, then got quiet as he got on top of it and did a head dip right over source. Over a body or a large source, he would run the gunnels-not so much for smaller sources. But he is spot on.

Beau is not going to have any boat time to count for when we test so it will be interesting to see how it goes........my real goal is to certify by January, it will be icing on the cake if he certifies in October...mainly I am going for the seminar.

Most of the areas we search are reservoirs needing a gasoline engine. We have a jon with a good trolling motor but it is jut not powerful enough to cover the areas with any sort of efficiency and it is useless in a river.

Too many variables on float. 3 days, same rule of thumb. Too deep, no float. [some of the mountain reservoirs are several hundred feet deep]

EDIT

We have trained in salt water with a team in the lowcountry but have not deployed in salt water but they have. it works.


----------



## Bob Scott

Steve Estrada said:


> A couple of questions, why are the lakes dangerous for divers? Snags, silt? Do these water detection dogs do salt water? I think of water density depth etc. not that I know much about this yet the service intrigues me. Mom's 82 that's great genetics on you, can I say lucky dog here



I was part of a search where the recovery diver got tangled up in brush and fishing line at about 20 ft. Luckily he had communication with the surface via some sort of head set.


----------



## Nicole Stark

Very fascinating and thank you all for the work and service you guys provide!


----------



## Nancy Jocoy

Nicole Stark said:


> Very fascinating and thank you all for the work and service you guys provide!


For this one, the ones to really thank are the recovery divers. Diving in total blackness in murky water with some big critters down there and all kinds of garbage at the bottom. They find by feeling around until they bump into the body and use various rope systems to help grid the area.

Our goals are to minimize diver danger by making their search area smaller and to help the family get a body they can say goodbye to and to give the coroner a better chance to figure out what exactly happened. Not everyone who drowned actually drowned.


----------



## Craig Snyder

Nancy Jocoy said:


> For this one, the ones to really thank are the recovery divers. Diving in total blackness in murky water with some big critters down there and all kinds of garbage at the bottom. They find by feeling around until they bump into the body and use various rope systems to help grid the area.


Yep... Ain't no way in hell you'll get me down there! =; =; 

Give me a charged, smoke filled, burning house any day! 

Craig


----------



## David Frost

Great discussion, with some really good information. Thanks to all th participants. 

DFrost


----------



## Steve Estrada

Total agreement with David it's been a real cliff hanger so to speak; thank you


----------



## Nicole Stark

This is true. SAR and Detection discussions stay on track and seem to have the most interesting contect of all the subjects posted about here. JMO.


----------



## julie allen

It took Greta a little while to stop searching inside the boat, vs looking outside of it lol. (I blame this on the LE officers who always hide our source in drawer, cabinets, and tail pipes  

Seriously I had to get her in odor to get her attention away from the boat interior lol. Doing great now, thank goodness. Libby will start on the boat soon, been too hot, with a metal bottom boat.

The hardest part I too find, is being their legs, as they want to go search, and cant.

Our next biggest challenge is the boat drivers. We have to really on whoever provides them, rescue squads, twra, etc. 

We were taken to an area of the river recently, and four boats were idling, had been there about 15 minutes. Had to clear them out, let it air out, which in tn, hot humid, and no wind in the evening, took some time. Then explaining over and over to whoever is driving the boat we are on to keep fumes downwind, lol, it gets interesting.


----------



## Jim Delbridge

Nancy Jocoy said:


> We are deployed differently -- usually within a few hours of a drowning, not several days and our team has had a good find and pinpoint rate. 100% on fresh lake/pond drownings (I *think* it is around 18 since about 2006).
> 
> Here, they usually do dive in the lakes. And it is dangerous because most of our lakes are dammed rivers which means trees, buildings, whatever are on the bottom which is pitch black.
> 
> On the rivers, well-often it is not safe to get divers in and they don't when it isn't, but on our river searches the bodies have typically come up a reasonable distance downstream and never upstream when we have gotten indications.


 
In this area, dogs are often the last resort. I have done two water searches in 15 years where twe searched for the person sooner. In both cases, we targeted where the body was and they parked a boat for the body to surface. In another, the water was dangerous from flood waters. On that one we were asked to search 1.25 miles of flood waters. We used dogs on shoreline first and determined the body was within 50 feet of point last seen. Turns out where the person had dived into the river was just upstream of a spillway and the spillway had a washout dug in under and behind the spillway. The body had ended up in here. The authorities diverted the water and the body was able to rise up and was caught downstream in a net. 

On rivers, once the body becomes buoyant again, they will move with the current which means they'll move downstream from where the dog teams targeted them. Doesn't mean the dog was wrong.

I definitely agree on the divers. Many of our lakes are very silty such that the divers rig up grid ropes with a diver at either end. Two other divers grab the rope on either side and swim along it's length feeling in the silt and all around them for the length of the gridg. Once that's done, they mover to the side another two body widths and repeat. They found one fellow for me in a car that had been next to a boat ramp for years, but we only realized he was there when the lake started to drop and boat motors were striking his windshield allowing one of his feet to float out to shore (in a shoe and the body tissue was almost entirely adipocere at this point.)

Most of our lakes are man made via flooding. Previous to flooding there was everything you'd have on land from trees to dwellings to fences in places. It can be very easy to catch an air hose on something the diver can't see which is why they'd prefer to allow the body to surface. In cases where the body gets caught on something, then dogs are required to narrow the area. Even then, they'll drag if possible to avoid unnecessary danger to the divers.

An experienced boat driver can become very handy. While I like training with only a trolling motor, the dog and handler have to become comfortable working whatever water craft the local law enforcement has. The only craft I tend to avoid is an air boat as its going to really disturb scent.

I've never worked salt water. I know Lisa Higgins is considered an expert on it. She teaches with a scent machine and I think that simply creates dogs prone to false alerts or poor targeting. My dogs work the slick on top of the water and the evaporation from said slick. Teaching with a scent machine falls into the comfort zone of air scent dogs and (I think) can give a false sense of security to the dog handler. The dog is never working to source. I know it's a moot point as it can be argued that scent is strongest where the bubbles break the surface, but I've yet to see a scent machine design that can convery the oils from adipose tissue. They tend to transport mainly blood gasses and molecules. 
This tool allows live find dogs to cross train into water work, so I can't say it's a bad thing. I've just had to deal with false targets by other teams over the years and it always happens in either strong winds, rough water, fast water with lots of turbulence, or just an inexperienced team. I'm by no means an expert in water work. I simply observe what hasn't worked with other teams I've had to deal with.
Water work is one of those venues where I think it's best for the locals that are familiar with the area and its unique environmental factors to work it rather than drive someone in from several states away. I know there have been a lot of successes now with side-scan sonar backing up the dogs. 
About ten years ago the local team had an instructor from Florida come up to work with us on water. I had one of the support boats. The instructor's preliminary shore line training was wanting and mainly blood-based. I was to take the instructor out on my boat (a tri-hull fiberglass rig I had at the time) with her "equipment." Turns out she had an underwater camera she could move about on a line with a monitor to be in my boat. I looked at this and smiled. She hadn't been out in the water yet and asked why I was looking so sarcastic. I told her I'd reserve judgement to see what she could teach me. We go out on the water and drop a source with a long line to shore some 150 feet away. She wants to take a pass over the source to see its placement. We stop over where it should be and she drops her camera. She then cusses out her monitor and fiddles with it for a good 15 minutes before announcing that it appears to be broken. I being an electrical engineer asked, "why do you say that?" She replied that all she got was blank screen. I asked if she'd looked in the water of the lake yet and she looked at me like I was a stupid yokel. I sighed and said, "just humor me and look at your rope in the water." She puts her hand in the water and it wasn't visible after 3 inches due to silt. Her statement to me was very instructive, "WELL, IN FLORIDA, ALL OUR WATERS ARE CLEAR. THIS WILL NEVER WORK!" 
Their teams used the dogs to get them within 100 feet of a body; Thus, they had no need to hone the dogs' skills in targeting on water. 
The K9 Forensic list has a nice discussion on water body movement and suggested a book. I can go look up the title on the list. I looked for it and it was hundreds of dollars, so I'll have to put it on my wish list. The proponents of it were in the northern states where they do a lot of diving and dog work in cold water. I have to state here that I'm very comfortable with water work in Oklahoma, Northern Texas, Arkansas, Kansas, and Colorado. I make no claims on places I don't work my dogs or know the waters. Most water seminars you will go to will cost a couple of hundred and you'll be lucky to get two to three boat runs a day with your dog. If you feel you need to do that to get the basics in your local, once would probably be worth it to put your mind at ease and get you the basics. To become proficient, you have to work your local waters in the type of boats you expect to deploy in. I was lucky with my youngest dog, Thorpe. He could have been a total spaz in a boat. I didn't do the right thing with him and take him out on a boat when he was a puppy. I would advise doing that. It turns out that he loves the water and boats. He runs and jumps in my new pond crawler daily wanting to go out again. Like I said, I got lucky there.

In water, you should expect the dog to be totally bored when not in scent (once they get past the novelty of the boat ride). When they get into scent, the dog should "come alive" and pursue to source as best they can. I advise against letting the dog jump into the water for two reasons. 1) Forcing them to stay in the boat raises their frustration to target the find. 2) (and most important in my book) If they jump into the water IN SCENT and you pull them back into the boat, then you've contaminated the boat with scent every place they drip. If other dogs are following yours, they have to acclimate past all the residual you allowed your dog to put in the boat. The DOD wants their dogs to swim over the source. When I tested boat with NAPWDA, I followed a DOD dog. I didn't know that until my dog gets into the boat and starts detailing it. I asked, "the last dog jump in after the source?" I got nods from the evaluator. I had to spend time letting my dog get over it. Water testing takes a long time per dog team, so this was just more delay. Lab handlers tend to just expect their dog is going to go into the water and try to make light of it. It's up to the handler what they will allow. Simple courtesy.

oh well, I've go on way too long. Yea, my mother is a pip. She bowls in four leagues year round, plays and still takes lessons on a full pipe organ, and strives to get "yard of the month" at least once a year. I used to have her on my bowling team and it was a treat to watch the old men captivated by her approach. She spreads her legs wide with ball up in her chest, does something like a ballerina's plies, then squares her feet for her approach. At 82, she's down to 98 lbs, but still going strong. I hope I have her fortitue at that age.

Jim


----------



## Nancy Jocoy

Because of gators in about half our state I don't want the dog in the water. That and rivers.

The doors opened to the SO water folks (we have worked land searches for the same SO for a number of years-but different folks) was one search where they dove for 3 days and one of our dogs indicated about 200 yards outside of the search area the night before he floated. We were called in as a "last resort" on that one.

I worked it the next morning before they were going to dive again and my dog went absolutely ballistic in the same area but was too overwhelmed for us to pinpoint (that was when I learned about working with the wind at your back and not into the wind-it was 15 feet of water, hot summertime, body came up within an hour of us going out there). They kept swearing the body was up in the cove where they have been diving and pretty much wrote off the dogs.

When he came up exactly where the first dog had pinpointed that made the sale. And now we are invited to all their dive trainings.

Jim, I agree with you on the pump. My issue it is a point source coming out of the water reality is a more diffuse slick.


----------



## Nicole Stark

Jim - along with everything else you said, that was real interesting but what is this: The K9 Forensic list


----------



## julie allen

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Because of gators in about half our state I don't want the dog in the water. That and rivers.
> 
> The doors opened to the SO water folks (we have worked land searches for the same SO for a number of years-but different folks) was one search where they dove for 3 days and one of our dogs indicated about 200 yards outside of the search area the night before he floated. We were called in as a "last resort" on that one.
> 
> I worked it the next morning before they were going to dive again and my dog went absolutely ballistic in the same area but was too overwhelmed for us to pinpoint (that was when I learned about working with the wind at your back and not into the wind-it was 15 feet of water, hot summertime, body came up within an hour of us going out there). They kept swearing the body was up in the cove where they have been diving and pretty much wrote off the dogs.
> 
> When he came up exactly where the first dog had pinpointed that made the sale. And now we are invited to all their dive trainings.
> 
> Jim, I agree with you on the pump. My issue it is a point source coming out of the water reality is a more diffuse slick.


Lol, for some reason I thought you lived in Wisconsin! 

Dogs get blown off here some too, but we are really working hard to change that. However, when you get some of the rescue randys that self deploy with dogs that bring up deer bones  what can you expect.


----------



## Nancy Jocoy

We don't get those so much for cadaver searches but do for live find searches...but then most cadaver searches are much more low key. Unmarked cars, no press, etc.

South Carolina.... any chance you are going to Douglasville NAPWDA this Fall? Taking the pup.


----------



## julie allen

Nancy Jocoy said:


> We don't get those so much for cadaver searches but do for live find searches...but then most cadaver searches are much more low key. Unmarked cars, no press, etc.
> 
> South Carolina.... any chance you are going to Douglasville NAPWDA this Fall? Taking the pup.


No, napwda comes about thirty miles from me in spring. This year, depending on what the ema office wants to do, may just do the awda and usar, since they cover them, and will have both dogs this year (hopefully)


----------



## Jim Delbridge

Nicole Stark said:


> Jim - along with everything else you said, that was real interesting but what is this: The K9 Forensic list


 
It's a yahoo group. I was pulled over when it changed from a private list I was on. It can get very tumultuous at times. At other times it has nothing useful what so ever. For someone not on it, I'd recommend going over the archives of the years of posts. Some of the same characters here get on it as well.

groups.yahoo.com

Search for K9Forensics. I'd lurk for a couple of months so you can figure out the *sigh* politics. The list owner is a friend which has probably kept me from being kicked off of it more than a few times.


Jim


----------



## Jim Delbridge

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Because of gators in about half our state I don't want the dog in the water. That and rivers.
> 
> The doors opened to the SO water folks (we have worked land searches for the same SO for a number of years-but different folks) was one search where they dove for 3 days and one of our dogs indicated about 200 yards outside of the search area the night before he floated. We were called in as a "last resort" on that one.
> 
> I worked it the next morning before they were going to dive again and my dog went absolutely ballistic in the same area but was too overwhelmed for us to pinpoint (that was when I learned about working with the wind at your back and not into the wind-it was 15 feet of water, hot summertime, body came up within an hour of us going out there). They kept swearing the body was up in the cove where they have been diving and pretty much wrote off the dogs.
> 
> When he came up exactly where the first dog had pinpointed that made the sale. And now we are invited to all their dive trainings.
> 
> Jim, I agree with you on the pump. My issue it is a point source coming out of the water reality is a more diffuse slick.


 
Yea, on lakes, my last pass to confirm my target is always with the wind instead of into it. 

Jim


----------



## Bob Scott

One big difference with a water search.
Often times the families of the victims are on the shore line. Voice really carries on water so the need is great to be very careful/professional in any discussions about the situation.


----------



## Nancy Jocoy

Tore me up tonight. Turned down a water search with Grim. He is actually doing pretty good with his back end and balance and I have worked him on a small search recently but I just felt that he is not stable enough to work the boat. 

And with mist and rain the deck would be wet complicating things. Sigh.

[his issues were either a disc compression injury, the start of DM, or maybe his thyroid ... he was borderline low and has improved tremendously with thyroid meds and acupuncture so I am bringing back up his training but only for the detail stuff-most effort is going into the puppy]

I saw someone work a dog once on a search where he had to lift the dog over deadfall and I thought...you know....its time....[our last search had a lot of deadfall and my old guy did ok-he was just shot after 20 acres-but so was I as it was mainly briars and barbed wire fences]


----------



## Craig Snyder

So sorry to hear. I got a long way to go (hopefully) before retiring mine and I just can't imagine it.

Especially when the dogs so much want to go out and do it. I've seen as other handlers on the team have had to scale back and eventually retire their partners how hard it is on the handlers. I know everyone on this forum is close to their dogs, and I don't want to offend anyone, but until I actually got into SAR work myself, I never realized how much time was spent with these dogs and how atuned the dogs and handlers become to each other. And I always thought I was always close to all my previous dogs.

Craig


----------



## David Frost

Craig Snyder said:


> , I never realized how much time was spent with these dogs and how atuned the dogs and handlers become to each other. And I always thought I was always close to all my previous dogs.
> 
> Craig


Which is why, in our program, I make that call. IT's based strictly on performance standards, not age. The handler always thinks the dog can still perform. I've seen grown, macho Troopers tear up when you tell them their dog is done. Someone has to remain objective.

DFrost


----------



## Craig Snyder

David,

You are right on the money with that. I think LE has an advantage in that regard due to the official chain of command and legal liability and such. 

In the volunteer SAR arena I think it becomes just a tad harder to do because of working with all volunteers. Not that it should make a difference but it does. 

I think that is another reason why the outside certification that needs to be redone every 1-2 yrs is important to require for all team members. It can help with that process along with internal reviews to try and make the decision more objective and less subjective, or even political.

Craig


----------



## Nancy Jocoy

My team president was the one who wanted me to work him, and for clarification he passed his annual NAPWDA recertification in January with flying colors.

The decision to have him do some limited work was based on a return to training with excellent performance on blind problems. My decisions to put limits on him are based on subtle changes I see in him on a daily basis, and hardly discernable during routine team training. 

I have made the same call to pull him from an assignment when he has run out of steam and has switched from working to going for a walk...[cadaver can either be hours on end with short breaks or stop and go check here, check there]

I think sometimes it is a tough call when there are a limited number of trained and certified and reliable cadaver dogs to supply the need.


----------



## julie allen

The certification tests are so short compared to most searches, I don't think they are adequate to decide if a dog is capable of deployment. Also they are typically held when the weather is good, so its much different working a dog when its 60 degrees vs now.
We have one to do this week, and they seemed surprised when i told them we need to work at night. It's only an evidence search since the body has been found, so wont be an easy one anyway.


----------



## Nancy Jocoy

Julie, I agree. The certifications are primarily to determine if the dog and handler have the required basic toolset to do the job...nothing more / nothing less...

Not going to work my dog at night unless we have trained at night. Not going to work him for a solid 3 hours with only short breaks unless I have seen him do that in training. If we have had to do something you have never tried before, we have been up front with LE that this is "a new one". You can't train for everything you will find with cadaver because some things are absolutely bizarre and "too close" to talk about.

It is through training I learned to read his "going for a walk" point. [which comes a lot earlier in 85F weather with 60% humidity than on a cool fall day]...when we finished our 20 acre a few weeks ago, he was still actively working but he was having trouble getting his back end through a pile of brush left over from clearcut. Those clearcut areas are nasty to walk through.

In the case of the 20 acre search, I was clear that the dog was certified but had been out of commission for a few months and had only started retraining a few weeks before. The folks on the other team who called us in knew my dog and knew me and still wanted to use him and assigned us accordingly.


----------



## David Frost

I've always said a good, well kept training record is the best predictor of proficiency and ability to perform. I do believe in annual certifications and I like to combine that certification with a review of the training records. A certification is a snapshot of performance. The training record will provide a prolonged view. 

DFrost


----------



## Nancy Jocoy

That is a question. I usually carry a COPY of my cert in the car along with shot records etc, but not my training records - I just carry around the most recent until I transfer them over. 

I guess a backup would make sense. I do paper - tried computer in the past but without a computer in the car, I am more dependable putting my binder on the steering wheel and writing them up on the spot.

I don't know if you work with volunteers a lot but if you had an unknown searcher would you ask to see their records?


----------



## David Frost

Nancy Jocoy said:


> That is a question. I usually carry a COPY of my cert in the car along with shot records etc, but not my training records - I just carry around the most recent until I transfer them over.
> 
> I guess a backup would make sense. I do paper - tried computer in the past but without a computer in the car, I am more dependable putting my binder on the steering wheel and writing them up on the spot.
> 
> I don't know if you work with volunteers a lot but if you had an unknown searcher would you ask to see their records?


Certification is all that's required if they are going to assist us.

DFrost


----------



## Craig Snyder

Nancy Jocoy said:


> I don't know if you work with volunteers a lot but if you had an unknown searcher would you ask to see their records?


Nancy,

Are you referring to all unknown K9 searchers or are you referring strictly to unrequested ones that aren't from a team?

Speaking from the fire & rescue side, if ANY person showed up on my scene that was not from a requested agency, they would be turned away. I wouldn't even be bothering to ask for papers. That goes for fire and rescue personnel as well as civilians or dog handlers. The number of undispatched ambulances that drove up to 911 out of Jersey, PA, and DE was an absolute disgrace and a total waste of resources. ](*,)](*,)

If the unknown handler was from a requested SAR team, I wouldn't be asking for anything. I would be trusting the SAR team leader or SAR Chief to only be allowing team approved handlers to be working. And I probably wouldn't be requesting the team if I didn't already know their team requried certifications.

That said, most fire chiefs in my area aren't very aware of the SAR teams and what they require or dont' require. They'll usually just ask the central dispatch to get them dogs. Which usually gets them a patrol dog. Eventually someone on the incident, police or fire, will recommend a SAR team they know, and that is who gets called. In PA, most dispatch centers are supposed to call PSARC (Pa search and rescue council), who is to call the nearest PSARC registered team. That isn't always as smooth as it should be.

The parks and natural resource officers are more knowledgable with this and will often call specific teams. No undispatched resources will usually even get close to the IC with these folks unless it gets some big media attention.

For the LE in our area, it's mostly word of mouth with regard to HRD. Few to any LE have HRD dogs. Again, some will rely on a SAR team while other LE have direct contacts to private handlers and use them. Who knows what they ask for or if they even know what to ask for.

Craig


----------



## Nancy Jocoy

We have had the ocassional request for certs when we get a call from someone with whom we have no relationship...usually they just ask on the phone though. 

We don't think too highly of unrequested show ups and even put together a "deployment of SAR resources" blurb for agencies to help them with using volunteers on a search [we do get some calls from LE based on the web page..and civilians find it and we tell them to call their own sheriff's office, that we do not respond to civilian calls..the vast majority though are local departments who know us and and train with us]..

It will be publicly available once our website is updated. I will post.


----------



## Nancy Jocoy

Jim Delbridge said:


> In this area, dogs are often the last resort. I have done two water searches in 15 years where twe searched for the person sooner. In both cases, we targeted where the body was and they parked a boat for the body to surface. In another, the water was dangerous from flood waters. On that one we were asked to search 1.25 miles of flood waters. We used dogs on shoreline first and determined the body was within 50 feet of point last seen. Turns out where the person had dived into the river was just upstream of a spillway and the spillway had a washout dug in under and behind the spillway. The body had ended up in here. The authorities diverted the water and the body was able to rise up and was caught downstream in a net.
> 
> On rivers, once the body becomes buoyant again, they will move with the current which means they'll move downstream from where the dog teams targeted them. Doesn't mean the dog was wrong.
> 
> I definitely agree on the divers. Many of our lakes are very silty such that the divers rig up grid ropes with a diver at either end. Two other divers grab the rope on either side and swim along it's length feeling in the silt and all around them for the length of the gridg. Once that's done, they mover to the side another two body widths and repeat. They found one fellow for me in a car that had been next to a boat ramp for years, but we only realized he was there when the lake started to drop and boat motors were striking his windshield allowing one of his feet to float out to shore (in a shoe and the body tissue was almost entirely adipocere at this point.)
> 
> Most of our lakes are man made via flooding. Previous to flooding there was everything you'd have on land from trees to dwellings to fences in places. It can be very easy to catch an air hose on something the diver can't see which is why they'd prefer to allow the body to surface. In cases where the body gets caught on something, then dogs are required to narrow the area. Even then, they'll drag if possible to avoid unnecessary danger to the divers.
> 
> An experienced boat driver can become very handy. While I like training with only a trolling motor, the dog and handler have to become comfortable working whatever water craft the local law enforcement has. The only craft I tend to avoid is an air boat as its going to really disturb scent.
> 
> I've never worked salt water. I know Lisa Higgins is considered an expert on it. She teaches with a scent machine and I think that simply creates dogs prone to false alerts or poor targeting. My dogs work the slick on top of the water and the evaporation from said slick. Teaching with a scent machine falls into the comfort zone of air scent dogs and (I think) can give a false sense of security to the dog handler. The dog is never working to source. I know it's a moot point as it can be argued that scent is strongest where the bubbles break the surface, but I've yet to see a scent machine design that can convery the oils from adipose tissue. They tend to transport mainly blood gasses and molecules.
> This tool allows live find dogs to cross train into water work, so I can't say it's a bad thing. I've just had to deal with false targets by other teams over the years and it always happens in either strong winds, rough water, fast water with lots of turbulence, or just an inexperienced team. I'm by no means an expert in water work. I simply observe what hasn't worked with other teams I've had to deal with.
> Water work is one of those venues where I think it's best for the locals that are familiar with the area and its unique environmental factors to work it rather than drive someone in from several states away. I know there have been a lot of successes now with side-scan sonar backing up the dogs.
> About ten years ago the local team had an instructor from Florida come up to work with us on water. I had one of the support boats. The instructor's preliminary shore line training was wanting and mainly blood-based. I was to take the instructor out on my boat (a tri-hull fiberglass rig I had at the time) with her "equipment." Turns out she had an underwater camera she could move about on a line with a monitor to be in my boat. I looked at this and smiled. She hadn't been out in the water yet and asked why I was looking so sarcastic. I told her I'd reserve judgement to see what she could teach me. We go out on the water and drop a source with a long line to shore some 150 feet away. She wants to take a pass over the source to see its placement. We stop over where it should be and she drops her camera. She then cusses out her monitor and fiddles with it for a good 15 minutes before announcing that it appears to be broken. I being an electrical engineer asked, "why do you say that?" She replied that all she got was blank screen. I asked if she'd looked in the water of the lake yet and she looked at me like I was a stupid yokel. I sighed and said, "just humor me and look at your rope in the water." She puts her hand in the water and it wasn't visible after 3 inches due to silt. Her statement to me was very instructive, "WELL, IN FLORIDA, ALL OUR WATERS ARE CLEAR. THIS WILL NEVER WORK!"
> Their teams used the dogs to get them within 100 feet of a body; Thus, they had no need to hone the dogs' skills in targeting on water.
> The K9 Forensic list has a nice discussion on water body movement and suggested a book. I can go look up the title on the list. I looked for it and it was hundreds of dollars, so I'll have to put it on my wish list. The proponents of it were in the northern states where they do a lot of diving and dog work in cold water. I have to state here that I'm very comfortable with water work in Oklahoma, Northern Texas, Arkansas, Kansas, and Colorado. I make no claims on places I don't work my dogs or know the waters. Most water seminars you will go to will cost a couple of hundred and you'll be lucky to get two to three boat runs a day with your dog. If you feel you need to do that to get the basics in your local, once would probably be worth it to put your mind at ease and get you the basics. To become proficient, you have to work your local waters in the type of boats you expect to deploy in. I was lucky with my youngest dog, Thorpe. He could have been a total spaz in a boat. I didn't do the right thing with him and take him out on a boat when he was a puppy. I would advise doing that. It turns out that he loves the water and boats. He runs and jumps in my new pond crawler daily wanting to go out again. Like I said, I got lucky there.
> 
> In water, you should expect the dog to be totally bored when not in scent (once they get past the novelty of the boat ride). When they get into scent, the dog should "come alive" and pursue to source as best they can. I advise against letting the dog jump into the water for two reasons. 1) Forcing them to stay in the boat raises their frustration to target the find. 2) (and most important in my book) If they jump into the water IN SCENT and you pull them back into the boat, then you've contaminated the boat with scent every place they drip. If other dogs are following yours, they have to acclimate past all the residual you allowed your dog to put in the boat. The DOD wants their dogs to swim over the source. When I tested boat with NAPWDA, I followed a DOD dog. I didn't know that until my dog gets into the boat and starts detailing it. I asked, "the last dog jump in after the source?" I got nods from the evaluator. I had to spend time letting my dog get over it. Water testing takes a long time per dog team, so this was just more delay. Lab handlers tend to just expect their dog is going to go into the water and try to make light of it. It's up to the handler what they will allow. Simple courtesy.
> 
> oh well, I've go on way too long. Yea, my mother is a pip. She bowls in four leagues year round, plays and still takes lessons on a full pipe organ, and strives to get "yard of the month" at least once a year. I used to have her on my bowling team and it was a treat to watch the old men captivated by her approach. She spreads her legs wide with ball up in her chest, does something like a ballerina's plies, then squares her feet for her approach. At 82, she's down to 98 lbs, but still going strong. I hope I have her fortitue at that age.
> 
> Jim


Jim, I had an amazing day of water training yesterday with a police master trainer. 
And he is not even a water dog trainer but a seasoned K9 handler/trainer for a department. Not "paid training" with an "expert". Just one who is working on being able to certify cadaver dogs. But detection work is detection work.

This was Beau's first time working on a boat (he had one boat ride earlier this summer). Jon Boat. I appreciate seeing other insights, like yours (and I think Barbara Weakly Jones and some others) as they keep you open minded and realize no ONE trainer has all the answers!

He had the dog very calm and downed in the front of the boat to work the water - allowed the dog to jump up and get ballistic at source. In a few sessions the dog "got it". I think the calmness helped. Not sure about the down...need to evaluate on different boats but I have to say the calm focus worked wonders. In one day (with a submerged hide known to us (as good as you can know a water hide..visual context stinks out on a lake) ) we were pinpointing and I could read the dog and direct the boat. FWIW the dog moved his body anyway to work the odor and he was still quite readable.

The other thing. These folks have no issue with correcting a knucklehead dog; they are used to working with high drive dogs and know it won't shut them down. Maybe some of these other methods evolved to work with lower drive and softer dogs...such as motivating them by jigging the bumper etc. Dog did not need a visual cue; we just needed one to confirm location. And the last thing you need to do with a driven dog is jack them up. 

We have a buoy (and a pully/cord) on our hide we can pop as a confirmation (since it is hard to visually mark something on water) and to retrieve the darn thing, but I think a GPS would work better and also give a good record of your search pattern to analyze.


----------



## Jim Delbridge

sounds like a good day of training. Now that I have my little 2-person bass boat with a trolling motor, I have an avenue to go train water when everyone else is too busy to train. I pulled one of the seats out two weeks ago. My goal was to take my time and simply watch the dogs in and out of scent. Murphy and I are testing again in late September in Colorado, so this was just reinforcement for him. That's probably going to be shoreline anyway.
I usually don't work the dogs in a vest as I'm right there and inhibit them from going in the water, but as it was just me and the dog they got to wear a vest. The 2 year old, Thorpe, was working a 20 foot deep tissue source and was pretty much done, but I wanted to see what he'd do if the boat was static near the source and I asked for a target. He had a lot more room with just me, so he drags his nose around the edge of the boat. He stops at one point then puts his nose down in the water and blows bubbles. I get this in scent a lot on shoreline, so I just watched. His posture showed he thought he had it and he pushed his nose down deeper to the point that he did a header into the water. He came back up right next to the boat and once I stopped laughing I helped him back in. Timing on reward was off, so I gave him some time to resettle then we reconfirmed his target. I have to say that having the luxury of my own little training boat was nice as I didn't have to worry about stealing other team's training time.
I had enough line that I was able to use shoreline trees or marker buoys to attach my lines to then move out far enough away that they didn't act as visuals. Our lakes are really down right now as we're enduring an "Exceptional Drought".

Oh, both dogs do a hard touch on the edge of the boat when they call their target. Both will bark and whine in scent, but the touch is all I go by. 

Jim


----------



## Nancy Jocoy

haha I was actually looking at some of those boats; may save up for one. A lot easier to launch than a 15 foot, 48 inch wide jon boat that really takes 4 people if you don't have a ramp...how is steering them? I am looking at that chair thing and wondering how working the tiller is cuz I usually sit sidways on a jon.

This was fun. It was actually easier to read the dog this way and he did move on the boat to be in scent naturally.. Not sure why Jonni's way we had to prompt them by banging on the boat etc...I think may be because they were so focused on the visual of the diver they could not think straight.

Beau did go in once but it was when he first caught scent and I had a lead and reeled him back in then pulled him in the boat....Not going there, not with gators in half the state (and like you said before;the issue of contaminating the boat-we NEVER carry training aids in the boat-if we use the boat to deploy we have hanging off the gunnels)

I can say though, they had me put his prong back on him because he was so excited about the boat and wanted to jump all over it getting in once he realized what the game was. I don't think that will be a permenant thing but I agree crazy dog on a boat is a good way to make chum.


----------



## Jim Delbridge

Nancy Jocoy said:


> haha I was actually looking at some of those boats; may save up for one. A lot easier to launch than a 15 foot, 48 inch wide jon boat that really takes 4 people if you don't have a ramp...how is steering them? I am looking at that chair thing and wondering how working the tiller is cuz I usually sit sidways on a jon.
> 
> This was fun. It was actually easier to read the dog this way and he did move on the boat to be in scent naturally.. Not sure why Jonni's way we had to prompt them by banging on the boat etc...I think may be because they were so focused on the visual of the diver they could not think straight.
> 
> Beau did go in once but it was when he first caught scent and I had a lead and reeled him back in then pulled him in the boat....Not going there, not with gators in half the state (and like you said before;the issue of contaminating the boat-we NEVER carry training aids in the boat-if we use the boat to deploy we have hanging off the gunnels)
> 
> I can say though, they had me put his prong back on him because he was so excited about the boat and wanted to jump all over it getting in once he realized what the game was. I don't think that will be a permenant thing but I agree crazy dog on a boat is a good way to make chum.


 
When training a known source, I prefer to be able to predict where scent is going to flow and then observe the change in the dog's behavior in contrast to telling the dog to work. 
As for the boat, it's actually manufactured in Georgia. I bought it through an online place called DirectBoats. I have a 8 ft by 10 ft flat bed trailer, so got a boat that's 9 ft 6 inches. I did order a set of wheels with a strap and rack that allows me to buckle wheels on one end, but on loading the boat back up this last time I dropped my trailer ramp right at the water's edge and just slide the boat back in the trailer. The seats swivel 360 degrees. Each seat is on a rack that slides in two grooves so that you can slide the seats back and forth the length of the boat if you push hard at the base. I got a trolling motor with 40 lbs of push for around $200 and got two 12-volt batteries such that when one dies then I know I can get back to shore if need be. Running the trolling motor at full speed will drain the batteries fast and I was covering about 160 acres of water this last time. I had two sources placed out such that neither would overlap the either remotely. This also gave me lots of negative water to run the dogs over so I could be sure they'd get bored with the boat trip and relax before getting back into scent. Each source was 1/2 placenta with adipose tissue from another source and human hair surrounding the tissue to slow down degradation and tissue retention. tissue was five days decomposed in and out of water.

Driving the boat is pretty simple and I sat perpendicular to the length of the boat so that I could keep an eye on the dog and reach the tiller at the same time. I have a ten lb anchor on a 100 ft rope in a bucket in case I want to stop. I can tie the rope to any length on the end of the boat. I've been in and out of boats on lakes most of my life, so most of this is second nature to me. 
I store the boat on the ground on one-by-eight planks. You have to take the trolling motor off and pull the batteries before you move the boat from water to land and visa versa, but I like going strictly electric versus combustion engines. Only tricky point on the last excursion was when a cigarette boat went flying by and created 3-foot wake. I just turned the boat into it and waited for them to pass.
I have a cheap trickle charger for the batteries and it took two days to recharge both batteries for next time. Oh, with a trolling motor, it's wise to have a battery box with a 60-amp breaker built in. A simple battery box is about $6. A breaker on it's own is $60. I found a battery box with a breaker and battery tester built in for $59, so I got that.

I do have the attitude that a boat is a "hole in the lake to pour money into", so I tend to go as frugal as possible. I have two back-up expandable oars and an expandable pike. I tend to use the pike to launch off shore and to pull into docks. It's convenient if you have some short loops of rope already tied at locations around the boat if you dock a lot.

In Oklahoma, to play on public lakes, I had to title the boat for a few bucks (not much as it's related to price of boat and this one was $700 total before motor and batteries as compared to easily $20K and up for a lot of today's water toys. Compared to what many want to charge to train water work, this was a good investment as I can hit the water with my dogs a couple of times a month if I so choose. I have worked dogs on water in as low as 38F air temp, so I figure I can train up to nine-ten months a year with it. With most water seminars really being one-to-two trips on the water per day for a single source for hundreds of bucks, this was a no-brainer. The more times your dog is on the water, the more it becomes routine.

Oh, when starting new dogs, I'd never bang on the boat as you can get scent trapped in the boat itself and many times you spend more time convincing the dog that the ropes really aren't the source. I might splash the water to get the dog's nose down, but after that it doesn't seem to be an issue. I don't charge to teach though, so what do I know. *grin*

later,

Jim


----------



## Nancy Jocoy

Fortunately,our team does have a nice 1548 welded Alumacraft with a carpeted platform we built and a trolling motor and two batteries for the team....just an all day affair by the time you get the boat out, set out hides, train, get the boat back, wash it out, put away all the stuff,.....plus it takes 4 folks to get it in and out of the water (no ramp where we train)

We are used to pulling the motor each time. No biggie. We pull the batteries out too to make moving it easier. 

We can also train with the SO and their Rescue One but for initial training I think it is too big and not so maneuverable (it has a jet engine) ..good to train on since we usually search off of bigger boats though.

We started training on a 1436 owned by a fire department (which is why we bought the 1548) I can only imagine what waves and chop would do to a wee bass boat but figure I might use one of those for my own smaller training or on some of the DNR managed lakes that don't allow gasoline engines. Plus my SIL would probably love me for life since he is a fisher-dude.

On a team day we can usually each get through 4 sets of 3 passes. You could not touch that at a seminar.

We have never given the dogs commands on the water because they are not given recreational boat time. Boat=HR searching.


----------



## Nicole Stark

Nancy Jocoy said:


> We have never given the dogs commands on the water because they are not given recreational boat time. Boat=HR searching.


Considering that mine which are not trained for this have considerable recreational boat time I have wondered something. I could look it up but questioned why when you can ask and get some dialogue going here on the topic? Are there any water searches filmed/available for viewing? I gather the behavior is similar to that of a dog on dry land with expected variables. But I'm interested anyway in asking the question and seeing if there's a response that says yes and here it is. That, seems lazy but is honest... =;

The closest I can get from my own experiences is a dead fish nearby a bank or a moose/bear crossing or nearby occupation. I mean, I assume that what I observe it is similar just directed differently? I don't really know but would like to understand it better.


----------



## Nancy Jocoy

You know, I looked to see if there was anything good on youtube and most of what I saw made me go "oh my"...maybe Jim knows of a good one.

I guess similar to a dead animal on shore or somthing is the dog will do something that makes you know it is in scent ... head pop, alertness etc, but, then they will start working it.....nose flaring, tasting water, licking lips, tail wag, overall tenseness and with intense focus, moving towards it as much as they can...I think without any training the dog is not going to work the odor to source but just show signs they smell something.

Different than on land is the dog is constrained and they rely on you to get them there so reading them becomes that much more important.

Maybe Jim has something. We normally don't keep anything we tape and we only tape for instructional purposes (sometimes a shoreline observer can better read a dog on a boat than the handler)


----------



## julie allen

My dogs will usually throw their heads up, nose flaring, then start walking, pacing, to get in the cone better. If we leave the scent pool, they go to the back or front, trying to stay in odor. The closer you get, the more the nose is right on the water. One will snap at and bite the water, the other will stick her face down into the water, if its a small enough boat. One will wag her tail, the other remains still, both attempt to paw at the water. They do almost all of this on shoreline searches as well. One swims out and circles biting the water. The other dips her nose down, and both will come back to shallow water to alert. 
Greta won't always give her sit/bark alert. This is my fault as in beginning training I let her become obsessed with the visual find, so its very important for me to read her rather than wait on her alert ( we are improving this) 
With Libby, I was determined not to make that mistake, lol so we went the other direction and she will sometimes alert too far away from source. Almost have that issue solved  

I don't have video, sorry.


----------



## Nancy Jocoy

The visual thing is a real detriment I think in the training. I really hope my idea of putting a GPS on proximity alarm and handing to the driver helps.

My big scare with the bark (which I am independantly teaching right now) is my other dog got out of control with it and wound up barking in odor and shutting up and dipping his head over source....Readable but ohhhh dear.......He was handler soft which made correcting him a bit hard Beau is pretty hard and takes a correction well, though and it does not shut him down one bit

[I do plan on adding the bark to the land indication AFTER the NAPWDA test but not before...for water not sure and pray we just do shoreline...we will only have 2 times on the boat before the seminar]

Say, do you guys hold onto your dogs like some of the videos? I don't want to be have my hands all over my dog while he is working odor. A lead on a harness is pretty good for flatwater and the only reason there is my concern about the dog going over and into the prop..{we train to swim to the side but the only way they can get back in some of the boats is the step at the back}...sometimes they are really on the edge to get to the water and fall in anyway. 

Moving water makes me more nervous and there I tell the boat guy...(as always) kill the engine if the dog goes over...and there I have held on if the dog is hanging way over the edge of the zodiac, but not with a lead because I figure he could snag if he did go over...A real balance between being safe and letting your dog work.

I always sit the dog between my legs and hold on if we are driving from point A to point B at a high speed though.


----------



## Jim Delbridge

Nancy Jocoy said:


> You know, I looked to see if there was anything good on youtube and most of what I saw made me go "oh my"...maybe Jim knows of a good one.
> 
> I guess similar to a dead animal on shore or somthing is the dog will do something that makes you know it is in scent ... head pop, alertness etc, but, then they will start working it.....nose flaring, tasting water, licking lips, tail wag, overall tenseness and with intense focus, moving towards it as much as they can...I think without any training the dog is not going to work the odor to source but just show signs they smell something.
> 
> Different than on land is the dog is constrained and they rely on you to get them there so reading them becomes that much more important.
> 
> Maybe Jim has something. We normally don't keep anything we tape and we only tape for instructional purposes (sometimes a shoreline observer can better read a dog on a boat than the handler)


 
The few utubes I've seen of water work tended to worry me for lots of reasons. Many times the camera person really doesn't know what they should be filming or when. Many of the ones I've seen used a scent machine as the scent producer and that really isn't a good example of what the scent scenario is of submerged remains.

My migration to water over the years is to start my dogs on bones and teeth. They migrate to buried bones and teeth. Once they can find six inch buried bones/teeth then I feel confident in starting them on shoreline bones and teeth. I start with the sources in wet sand just above the water then migrate down into the water over time. Around this time the dog gets introduced to tissue (in my training program). Once the dog demonstrates in 2-3 feet of water that it can work remains, then I feel confident starting it on boats.
Boat work is a whole new world for the dog and can be an exercise where you train through frustration. Up to this point the dog was ranging to find scent and now you are transporting it to the scent. The dog's only latitude is to range the boat in pursuit of the find and you can use that to define when you are leaving scent. Dog's trained in live or airborne scent tend to lift their heads and have to be trained to seek the scent at the water's surface as water work is really working an "oil slick." Dogs with a trailing background are easy to migrate as you can just give the trail command. I learned "suuk" decades ago and while my dogs don't trail they know this means nose down.
I think the buried work gives the dog a better foundation to call the strongest concentration of scent on water as its used to judging diffusion strengths. Dogs have an extra nasal organ in the roof of their mouth and I've been told and observed dogs blowing bubbles when working scent in water to better define location. They shove their noses down into the water and then you see bubbles come out as they blow out their nostrils. I always take it as a good sign.
The handler is a lot more involved in water work as you direct the driver by observing the dog's responses. I know one school works to train the dog to direct the boat driver. I think this is just wasted effort. My end goal is that my last pass will be from upwind/upstream with the expectation that the dog will hit right where we've worked out the scent breaks the surface. If the dog doesn't react appropriately, you keep narrowing it down. 
A perfectly calm day with a lake problem is (I think) the hardest as you are really asking the dog to define the center of the oil slick. With some wind, the slick circle becomes a cone and the tip of the cone is where the scent breaks surface. With too much wind, the scent is thrown up into the air and again targeting can become a challenge. With cross-trained dogs, this often produces false targets downwind of the surface break.

But, no, I haven't seen any good mpgs or u-tubes to watch it done. I am personally allergic to cameras of any kind having grown up with an industrial photographer. Plus, I simply prefer that my searches be a routine part of an investigation rather than a photo-op for team donations or a sherrif's election. If confronted with the press, I ask them to simply focus on the dog and not me....then we make tracks out of the area quickly. Someone filmed my 2 y/o old sliding down playground equipment on Sunday with an elevated problem (using their cell phone). I had them send a copy to the wife as she rarely gets to see my dogs outside of our land or her clinic. Going down the slide was part of his reward as he's grown to love slides from our obedience walks. The older dog won't go near them.


Jim


----------



## Jim Delbridge

Nancy Jocoy said:


> The visual thing is a real detriment I think in the training. I really hope my idea of putting a GPS on proximity alarm and handing to the driver helps.
> 
> My big scare with the bark (which I am independantly teaching right now) is my other dog got out of control with it and wound up barking in odor and shutting up and dipping his head over source....Readable but ohhhh dear.......He was handler soft which made correcting him a bit hard Beau is pretty hard and takes a correction well, though and it does not shut him down one bit
> 
> [I do plan on adding the bark to the land indication AFTER the NAPWDA test but not before...for water not sure and pray we just do shoreline...we will only have 2 times on the boat before the seminar]
> 
> Say, do you guys hold onto your dogs like some of the videos? I don't want to be have my hands all over my dog while he is working odor. A lead on a harness is pretty good for flatwater and the only reason there is my concern about the dog going over and into the prop..{we train to swim to the side but the only way they can get back in some of the boats is the step at the back}...sometimes they are really on the edge to get to the water and fall in anyway.
> 
> Moving water makes me more nervous and there I tell the boat guy...(as always) kill the engine if the dog goes over...and there I have held on if the dog is hanging way over the edge of the zodiac, but not with a lead because I figure he could snag if he did go over...A real balance between being safe and letting your dog work.
> 
> I always sit the dog between my legs and hold on if we are driving from point A to point B at a high speed though.


The lead varies with the safety of the situation. If I know the boat driver or if he's a trooper driving me then I tend to leave the dog off lead to allow it to move with scent. If we're on fast water, I'll attach a lead and often just let it drag as a safety precaution. Too many handlers cue with the lead, so I try to keep it as loose as possible if it's in my hand. 
On Murphy's fist water find, I was also asked to act as death investigator, so once found I had to swap hats. I had to pay attention to my victim rather than my dog. I had the body suspended just over the bow and I was taking care to make sure it did not get damaged from our slow movement. Murphy knew by scent that there was a body just over the side, but he couldn't see it (Lake Patrol boat). So, he did a touch right on the bow. I realized that I'd only verbally praised him and handed him his ball. He proceeded to re-find and reward hiimself at least 20 times between the find and the boat ramp. The troopers were good about him tossing his ball up into the air towards the back of the boat (20+ foot boat) and scampering after it. I saw it as the ultimate imprint in the boat and really had to pay attention to my charge, so it worked out well. I could have tied him up, but I think that would have sent the wrong message. His first whole body find, we came out upon at the same time and he did get tied up before getting to the body. I don't see any point in worrying about the dog targeting the body when I can see it in plain sight. This way I could honestly say that the "cirtter activity" on the remains were not created by my dog at all. In the past I've seen multiple dog teams come racing into a potential crime scene to imprint their dogs on the actual find and I just cringe at the crime scene tech nightmare. Sorry, I got off topic again.

Jim Delbridge


----------



## Nancy Jocoy

You know that steer the boat stuff is really what the dog is doing naturally once they realize they can't walk on water and are not allowed to jump in...the handler is still directing the driver though a good driver can tell anyway. ...

I gotta say though, it was much easier to read my pup when we insisted he stay calm and NOT run crazy all over the boat. [recent training, not the steer the boat method]...he was more focused and less frantic though that seems to just be his style of hunting. 

I think the problem is more with the bubbles and scent distribution of either a diver or a pump because both of those exit the water at a specific point, not a diffuse area. Though enough people with more experience than I are very succesful with those methods as were we. Honestly, I felt the attempts to make reading the dog bombproof by having them move a specific way actually made it harder for me to read the dog and I think the dogs got too jacked up. And I don't like the visual cues on the water. Takes your attention away from the dog.

And the approach of working the "scent cone" when you don't always get a scent cone to work but it more usually like you say a different scent distribution-a diffuse spread out area on the surface with different components of the odor, not just the light volatiles ...

We have found that the cadaver dogs are much more subtle on a whole body than even a small container of decomp because there is hardly any decomposition early on. The diver training does *seem to* help with that and make it stronger on fresh bodies (that whole live scent dead scent transition stuff I guess).


----------

