# How many



## Don Turnipseed

good trainers are on this board from Calif or close enough to Calif to drive? I have a reason for asking. I have some really nice 10th gen males here that were born 7/2. It is a bad time of year with schools starting and last vacation being the first consideration. It is also to hot to ship which futher complicates moving the pups. Since I am always willing to back up what I say, I will give one of the pups to the right person if they work it in protection. I would rather do it this way than drop the price. There is a picture on my web site of the only pup ever worked in protection at 8 mo. The guy had to get rid of the dog and he is now a guide dog for the blind. This means they are not proven in protection. The sire is Odin, the 2007 National Master Fur dog. The males are social dominate dogs. One stipulation is I don't want the dog living in a crate or isolated from people so they only focus on the owner. They don't need that. I will give you an idea of how to work with them so they will work with you because they can have a stubborn streak.


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## Bob Scott

Don, if I didn't have two GSDs, a JRT and a very small back yard (corner house in a subdivision) I'd be out there if I had to ride a bicycle. I LOVE the terriers and the Airedale is KING!


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## Don Turnipseed

I am not sure this is a good idea or not Bob, but, we will find out. The dogs are bred for hogs but have done well at water retrieving, flushing or anything that requires drive and desire. They are hell on tracking also.


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## Carol Boche

Could do SAR work......UGH....SLAP ME!!!! 

I am thinking of biking in with Bob.....we do have some guys here looking for hunters for Cats and Coyotes.....they mix them with their hounds...

One of them has the cutest bobcat kitten EVER....til he gets pissed, then we leave him alone...LOL


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## Bob Scott

My biggest concern for most is working with a terrier in protection for the first time. 
Most, not all, protection folks start out with to much defence. In that way there no different then any other dog but I truely believe they need to be handled a bit differently then the herders. Pressure from a human is totally different then from quarry. 
It will be interesting to follow.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Bob,

Did you know the guy that was trialing the Airedale at the Sch trial at the Dog House a couple of years ago?

Terrasita


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## Bob Scott

Carol Boche said:


> Could do SAR work......UGH....SLAP ME!!!!
> 
> I am thinking of biking in with Bob.....we do have some guys here looking for hunters for Cats and Coyotes.....they mix them with their hounds...
> 
> One of them has the cutest bobcat kitten EVER....til he gets pissed, then we leave him alone...LOL



Carol, I believe they have a nose right up there with the best. Channel that on HRD and you'd have one helluva dog. JMHO!


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## Carol Boche

Bob Scott said:


> Carol, I believe they have a nose right up there with the best. Channel that on HRD and you'd have one helluva dog. JMHO!


I know, that is what I am thinking too......](*,)=D>:mrgreen:


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Some guy just posted on the bouv list about an F1 utility dog which turned out to be a bouv/airedale cross. He shows pictures of the airedale doing bitework.

Terrasita


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## Don Turnipseed

Carole, a doctor has two of my dogs in Eagle Butte. One is with a bird dog trainer in GA right now. This is the second of my dogs this trainer has worked and I have an email from him where he says the first one has the best nose he has seen in 25 years.

Bob, yes, you can't come down on these dogs like some or they won't work for you. That is the one thing that worries me, a lot of protection folks are like drill sargents.


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## Carol Boche

I should go up and visit....Eagle Butte is only a skip and a hop from here.....too cool!!!!!


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## Mike Scheiber

Don Turnipseed said:


> Carole, a doctor has two of my dogs in Eagle Butte. One is with a bird dog trainer in GA right now. This is the second of my dogs this trainer has worked and I have an email from him where he says the first one has the best nose he has seen in 25 years.
> 
> Bob, yes, you can't come down on these dogs like some or they won't work for you. That is the one thing that worries me, a lot of protection folks are like drill sargents.


Not all you may be suprised once you start snooping around sport trainers how many good trainers are around that know how to work with a dog rather than trying to make the dog work.
Be patient if time permits.
I follow all your posts I find your dogs and perspective interesting Many years ago we had a club member title a imported Airedale to Schutzhund II


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## Jeff Oehlsen

The house is too full, or I would give one a go for sure. That pic you sent me almost had me saying **** it. LOL

I would love to see if they can deal with the control needed. I figured if I can keep it a game long enough to get them understanding the exercises, then maybe I have a shot.

I once trained a fox terrier in OB, and you couldn't drag him off of a down or a sit. He maintained the position.

I am working with a guy that is turning out to be a real find. It is hard to find a decoy that can target a dog, and has a good understanding of what you want, and will do ALL the steps needed to get the dog where you want him.

I just need to find a place. Just the other day I looked at 5 acres for 54 grand that obviously floods whenever it rains. People out here act like this shit is gold. They need to get out more, as San Antonio is a shit box. LOL

Anyway, when that happens, am going to take you up on this. Still tempted to now. Damn you. LOL


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## maggie fraser

Here are a couple of really cool Airedale vids....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6PsN8xBl_E&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAysOiiFTMM&feature=related


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## Don Turnipseed

Fun Vid Maggie. That is pretty much the way they are. These particular dogs have a work ethic. when they play, they play hard, when they work, they focus. I am going to be heading to Fresno shortly and won't be back till late.


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## Don Turnipseed

Mike Scheiber said:


> Not all you may be suprised once you start snooping around sport trainers how many good trainers are around that know how to work with a dog rather than trying to make the dog work.
> Be patient if time permits.
> I follow all your posts I find your dogs and perspective interesting Many years ago we had a club member title a imported Airedale to Schutzhund II


I know there are good trainers out there Mike, it was a generalized statement of some I have met that would not be able to work with these dogs. Actually, Some of the worst dog handlers for working these particular dogs would be houndsmen. They can leave you shaking your head at times....yet they have fantastic dogs....that don't want to come to them but will hunt their hearts out. Hounds are open mouth on track but when the run trash the will run silent because they know they will get the tar beat out of them if they get caught. And they say they are stupid. On the other hand, there are houndsmen that are cool with their dogs also.


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## Carol Boche

JEFF.....

Wanna work as a truck driver? Come here, work for Doug and I at the contracting co.....and then I will pay you to decoy as well.....has to be Sch to start though.....LOL 

There is a home for sale right now on 65 acres, outbuildings and garage for $70k, purchase from owner.......nearest neighbor is .5 miles away.....


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## Don Turnipseed

Wind chill is what Carole....-40 sometimes? Now we are talking airedale weather.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

It feels like the middle of no where right here in San Antonio. Then there is the joyful prospects of having no one to work my dogs. Sure. Be right there. LOL


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## Carol Boche

Perfect weather for the little monsters Don....seriously. 

And Jeff.....I am trying to BUILD the dog stuff here.....so you can be part of that....I'm calling Stephanie....neener neener......


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## Mike Scheiber

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> It feels like the middle of no where right here in San Antonio. Then there is the joyful prospects of having no one to work my dogs. Sure. Be right there. LOL


You would be not so far from the mid west Minnesota Mondio hot bed you might even get hooked on Schutzhund Minnesota style you allready got the arm dog


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## Bob Scott

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Bob,
> 
> Did you know the guy that was trialing the Airedale at the Sch trial at the Dog House a couple of years ago?
> 
> Terrasita


 
I had met and talked with him a couple of times. He was really heavy handed with that dog but it didn't seem to bother the dog much. He (the dog) would go through the Schutzhund routine like he owned the world. Not great scores but a geat attitude. 
This is one of the things I mentioned and Don commented on. A terrier is often very soft to handler correction. Treat one unfair and it will be easily crushed of go for broke on you. Again, not so different from many good dogs. 
Don, you know what i'm talking about. I just don't know how to explain it to folks that never worked a good terrier. 
My first obedience competion dogs were Kerry Blues. One was soft as pudding to my voice but you couldn't beat him with a stick. They were also the dogs that taught me to have fun. I HATE using the word stubborn in dog training. That usually means, to me, that the dog just doesn't understand what you want. Convince it that it's having a good time and the world is yours.


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## Don Turnipseed

Bob Scott said:


> I had met and talked with him a couple of times. He was really heavy handed with that dog but it didn't seem to bother the dog much. He (the dog) would go through the Schutzhund routine like he owned the world. Not great scores but a geat attitude.
> This is one of the things I mentioned and Don commented on. A terrier is often very soft to handler correction. Treat one unfair and it will be easily crushed of go for broke on you. Again, not so different from many good dogs.
> Don, you know what i'm talking about. I just don't know how to explain it to folks that never worked a good terrier.
> My first obedience competion dogs were Kerry Blues. One was soft as pudding to my voice but you couldn't beat him with a stick. They were also the dogs that taught me to have fun. I HATE using the word stubborn in dog training. That usually means, to me, that the dog just doesn't understand what you want. Convince it that it's having a good time and the world is yours.


Bob, the best way I could put it is that airedales will work 10 times better if they are working with you rather than for you.


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## Bob Scott

Agree 110% Don!
As I commented before, my Kerry Blues were the dogs that taught me teamwork and having fun.


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## Kyle Sprag

Don Turnipseed said:


> Bob, the best way I could put it is that airedales will work 10 times better if they are working with you rather than for you.


 
I thinks it show the maturity in the trainer/handler to work with not have work for with any breed.


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## Don Turnipseed

Well, here is the possible future Mondio airedale. LOL Will be an interesting study since he isn't a lot different than the rest of the pups. In the second picture there is a bowl of hot dogs on the table and 5 mo old Jack and the pup both know it is there.


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## Bob Scott

:-k I wonder if it would be mean of me to mention to Carol (hound lover) that the Airedale was produced with Otterhound/terrier crosses. DAMN good noses! :-k 
Just a thought! :-\" :-\" :grin: :grin: :grin: :wink:


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## Don Turnipseed

Yeh, and I would have liked to see one doing SAR.


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## Bob Scott

Caaaaarooooolllllll!


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## Carol Boche

I really want one now.......really bad........ UGH....

I have always wanted one ever since the hog pics........


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## Bob Scott

Carol Boche said:


> I really want one now.......really bad........ UGH....
> 
> I have always wanted one ever since the hog pics........


You've trained hounds, you've trained herders. Now is the time to streeeeeach your learning abilities and train the KING of terriers! \\/ :grin: :wink:


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## Don Turnipseed

Carol Boche said:


> I really want one now.......really bad........ UGH....
> 
> I have always wanted one ever since the hog pics........


That doesn't get it done Carol. Got to actually make a move. Did I tell you I can take a lb of venison out of the freezer during the winter with all the windows closed and in 30 seconds to a minute the dogs have come from all over the yards and have their faces in the window.


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## David Ruby

Bob Scott said:


> You've trained hounds, you've trained herders. Now is the time to streeeeeach your learning abilities and train the KING of terriers! \\/ :grin: :wink:


The American Pit Bull Terrier? :idea:

-Cheers


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## Don Turnipseed

Now being a self proclaimed novice is showing David


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## Carol Boche

Don Turnipseed said:


> That doesn't get it done Carol. Got to actually make a move. Did I tell you I can take a lb of venison out of the freezer during the winter with all the windows closed and in 30 seconds to a minute the dogs have come from all over the yards and have their faces in the window.


I know....I just have enough dogs right now and hopefully Esta will take when she is bred the end of this month so it really sucks.....


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## David Ruby

Don Turnipseed said:


> Now being a self proclaimed novice is showing David


It was a joke. Admittedly I like the Bulldogs, and admittedly I'm a novice, but I am aware of the working, police, and military history of the Airedale. No offense was intended Don.

-Cheers


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## Carol Boche

David Ruby said:


> The American Pit Bull Terrier? :idea:
> 
> -Cheers


LOL.....been there, had them and would LOVE to train another....but alas....Doug puts his foot down at the bully breeds so I must respect that. :-({|=


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## Don Turnipseed

Non taken David. I was giving you a bad time also but thes computers don't seem to know I am laughing as I write.


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## David Ruby

Don Turnipseed said:


> Non taken David. I was giving you a bad time


Deserved. :razz: Heck, I might end up taking a pointy-eared dog to my Bulldog trainer at some point (who also breeds and works American Bulldogs), so I expect to be given a REAL hard time if & when that happens. Si I might as well get used to it. :|



> also but thes computers don't seem to know I am laughing as I write.


They're idiot savant in nature. Don't worry about it. I don't get too ruffled over the Internet, and I'm an equal opportunist dog lover. It was just too easy a joke to not make though. I do like your dogs from the looks of them and by reputation, so I didn't want to be the punk dissin' your dogs because they weren't Bulldogs though.

-Cheers


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## Don Turnipseed

Well, the pup went home yesterday. The new owner tested then for prey and whatever and picked the same one I had picked.  The pups were their typical selves. Came in and washed the blood off after I got them put up.LOL It will be interesting. The pup is social dominant which will really make it interesting.


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## Carol Boche

uuugghhhhhh....LOL

I am SO happy this pup found a place!!! 

And to the new owner...I am leaving for WA on Friday and if ya want.....I can swing through and visit....ya know, try to steal the new pup and all!!!!  (or we could meet for lunch somewhere, I will have Esta with me)
I suck at calling you, I know...I will PM you my contact info and you can call me if ya want.....I think I have about 40 people to call.


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## Don Turnipseed

I have another male that would be great at SAR Carol. Very smart pup that would do well in obedience also.


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## Carol Boche

Don Turnipseed said:


> I have another male that would be great at SAR Carol. Very smart pup that would do well in obedience also.


What about blood trailing? (yes I am kind of addicted to that now.....so fun)


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## Don Turnipseed

While airedales are basically winding dogs Carol, these dogs run an old track with their nose in the dirt like a hound. I can't believe any dog can't run a blood trail. When you consider a dog can run an animal track for miles without blood, why would adding something as nasty smelling as blood make it more difficult? Any dog bred to hunt should do a blood trail hands down.


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## Carol Boche

Don Turnipseed said:


> While airedales are basically winding dogs Carol, these dogs run an old track with their nose in the dirt like a hound. I can't believe any dog can't run a blood trail. When you consider a dog can run an animal track for miles without blood, why would adding something as nasty smelling as blood make it more difficult? Any dog bred to hunt should do a blood trail hands down.


Hmmmm.....let me talk with Doug, and make sure all this is legal. We did some research on codified laws last night and it does not look like the bill passed. 
My only concern would be running them on-lead....think that would be an issue? The bill that we found states that the dog must be on lead. Which is why I was starting to look at hounds again.


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## Jennifer Coulter

Don Turnipseed said:


> While airedales are basically winding dogs Carol, these dogs run an old track with their nose in the dirt like a hound. I can't believe any dog can't run a blood trail. When you consider a dog can run an animal track for miles without blood, why would adding something as nasty smelling as blood make it more difficult? Any dog bred to hunt should do a blood trail hands down.


I know that they use Tollers and many hunting breeds for this in Scandanavian countries. I think they hold blood tracking trials and such as well.


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## Don Turnipseed

Tracking on a lead shouldn't have anything to do with it if they have the drive to hunt.


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## Carol Boche

Don Turnipseed said:


> Tracking on a lead shouldn't have anything to do with it if they have the drive to hunt.


Sounds good, I was more concerned with slowing a fast dog down as I am too old to be at a dead run with them...;-)

I agree with the drives to hunt...if they have it, the possibilities for anything are great!!


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## Jennifer Marshall

Carol I would LOVE for you to visit! I live very simply but I would enjoy the opportunity to cook up some Elk Backstrap for you! I will have my dog pens finished by then and I am going to start setting up my obstacle course this week. I hope. (I got a TON of tires that I am making a pyramid, a type of a cat walk, jumps, and other stuff with.)

I have a phone now so I actually could call you if I knew the #'s to dial 

Don, Jager is GREAT. He is very confident and settling in well. He "woke up" this morning when I took him out to pee at 3 am. Started showing me some more drive and is already bonding with me. He has so far killed 2 old boots, the towel I dried him off after his bath with, an egg carton, a milk jug, 3 20 oz soda bottles and I fear for my slippers. Hah. All stuff he was allowed to have, but he really enjoyed himself.

He talks all the time. A ton of personality. Very smart. VERY.

He has his moments of goofishness, and is starting to loosen up a bit and play more than think but I'm telling you this is the most serious 12 week old animal I have ever met. When he looks at me I can see him thinking. He already figured out how to open every cupboard in the kitchen so I had to bust out my kid proof fasteners and I have a feeling he is going to bypass those by the end of the week.

He impressed me on the drive home. I stopped at truck stops instead of rest areas to let him out and absolutely nothing bothered him. He wanted to play with everyone he met, didn't give a crap about the semis and everything else he encountered. He didn't care for me much at first LOL after all I stole him from his home and his family and stuffed him in a plastic box in the backseat of a car. 517 ish mile drive home he didn't cry much or fret, just went to sleep after I put music on. 

The First stop he just wanted to sniff and look at everything and wouldn't even look at me when I talked to him. Tail up, head held high, he stayed at the end of the lead until I picked him up to put him back in the car. Second stop there wasn't as much activity (it was midnight-1 am) so he came over to check me out and tried to eat the leg off my jeans. By the 3rd stop he was interested in what I was all about. Got home a bit after 5 AM, ran him around for a bit then I passed out. I am not used to driving over a 1000 miles in 21 hours.

Yesterday he explored all day. Nice nose on him. I give Cuda cow(and elk and deer) hooves/feet as chewies because they are the only things that last longer than a second. Jager picked up the trail on the carpet/area rug and after 5-10 minutes found one under our huge area rug partway under the couch that had to have been there for at least a month. That rug has had at least a dozen of those feet/hooves on it dragged over every inch in the last month and Jager stayed on the scent until he found one.

Carol if you decide to visit and you like Jager I BEG you to look at the other male Don mentioned. He is a nice pup, intelligent, and focused. Has the longest attention span I've ever seen on a pup that age.

Picking a pup was difficult, it was a very nice litter. In the end it came down to Jager being the one that had something in his mouth 99% of the time. He was the independent one that showed more interest in toys/prey items than food, he fought the longest and hardest and didn't immediately lose interest when the toy stopped moving, he regripped. He didn't care about having his feet or ears or face touched or handled, or having something over his head or covering his eyes while he was tugging. He was the first to bite my keys and held on like a demon to the keys/keychains themselves not the lanyard. 

I am not an expert ... hell I may not even be a "good" trainer but I am very excited to have this opportunity and will keep everyone up to date on his and Cuda's progress. My two offbreed sport dogs.


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## Don Turnipseed

Just finished with the wild bunches time on the deck. Seems Slick is Jacks target now. LOL Glad you got home ok and are finding Jager a barrel of laughs right now.....later on you will want to kill him but you will be laughing to hard to do it. They are uncanny at payback when they think you have been unfair. 
Youn will have fun with him and I will find it interesting to hear the progress reports on how he handles different situations in training. 

It was a pleasure meeting and talking with you.
Don


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## Don Turnipseed

The new pups started arriving yesterday evening. These are the reverse 10 gen cross from the litter Jager is from. Had to go up to the truck as it was getting light to get my Redman, breakfast of champions, so I went down by the creek and took a quick peek into Cassidy's whelping box. There was a nice size pile of wriggling bodies there. I will get a count later when it is lighter. Don't figure they are up to running off and hiding on me yet. :mrgreen:


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## Don Turnipseed

Looks like 7 males and one female. Below is the sire, Wild Bill. There is a bred female, Peg, in this yard with Wild Bill also that will be leaving for Hawaii Sunday. When she leaves I have two of Cassidy's sisters that will be put in the yard with Bill as they are approaching 2 years old. That will complete the second set of 10th gen breed stock. Then I will see if I wasted 2 years or if they produce as well as their sister. The years just keep going by trying to get this set up. Peg, the one going to Hawaii is an 11th gen bitch which will make her offspring 12 gen. I may have to bring one of those back. LOL


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## ann schnerre

don, this is way OT, and correct me if i'm wrong, but i'm curious to know if what i'm thinking is correct: is the reason A'dales are shaved "upper-body" but left rough on their legs, to protect the legs yet allowing them to go thru brush, etc, relatively smoothly, to minimize burrs etc? plus allow them to cool more efficiently?


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## Don Turnipseed

ann freier said:


> don, this is way OT, and correct me if i'm wrong, but i'm curious to know if what i'm thinking is correct: is the reason A'dales are shaved "upper-body" but left rough on their legs, to protect the legs yet allowing them to go thru brush, etc, relatively smoothly, to minimize burrs etc? plus allow them to cool more efficiently?


Hi Ann. Couldn't say why for sure. In the early part of the breeds history, they didn't have the profuse coat they have today. They had a shorter tight coat. a working coat but, that wasn't good enough for the showbees. I don't really think the full legs was for any particualr function outside of appearance. Let's face it.....they would never let a dog run throught the briars anyway.

I have seen it said the rough wirey coat served to gag other dogs when fighting but I think most of it is imagination which has no limits.

An a musing side note. The AVMA has taken the stance that docking tails is not something they want to do. The show world is in an uproar. They were writing letters of protest because docking the tail serves the purpose of protecting the tail from being beat to a bloody pulp in the brush while hunting. I suggested they at least take a stance that was believable because first, the tail curls over the back and does not get beat up and second, non of them would have their dogs in the brush. They insisted it would take a beating.


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## Bob Scott

Look in any book on real working dogs, past or present and there are no fancy coat trims. As Don commented, that all show bizz crap.
The story I heard on tails is that (for the smaller earth terriers) the tail was cut for practical reasons. I've personelly used the tail to pull a few dogs out of the ground. If to long, it would be easy to grab it near the end and break it. By being short you must grip it down near the body and no hurt nor harm is done. In the good old days (even before me) it was common to "leave just enough for a handful of tail". :-o (Getya slapped today)
I've also heard/read stories about tails being docked for tax purposes. Pets kept their tails and were taxed. Working dogs were docked and not taxed.
Not sure what, if any of this is true though.
More show bs;
The short legged terriers often have Queen Ann fronts(bowek out at the elbows and feet pointingeast west. This was supposed to be because the short legged dogs had to kick the dirt out sideways so the wouldn't bury themselves. :-o !!!!Show folks excuse for a poor front!!!!
Another;
The terriers have a long face so they can reach out further with their teeth then their feet while in a hole. ](*,) ](*,) 
NONE of the terriers had a long face before the show folks jumped in. 
Sorry about the hijack Don but I get wound a bit tight when I think about all the reasons todays dogs look like they do now. RARELY if EVER is it for function.
I do believe the coarse coats shed dirt better. When I showed and hunted my Borders I often showed them the same weekend of a hunt and did nothing but brushed the dirt out. Don't think I ever bathed a hard coated terrier just to show it.


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## ann schnerre

and upon consideration, (not knowing how terrier hair really is), doesn't the long hair on their legs actually collect burrs, etc? 

and the argument about tails reminds me of the reason i've heard for years for cropping ears, as in Dobes anyway: if they get in a fight, cropped ears aren't as likely to be torn up. FWIW


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## Bob Scott

Sure does but the coarse hair can be brushed out lots easier. Now on my Kerry Blues, they had a coat like a Poodle. Soft, wavy and no shedding. I used to cuss a blue streak when I came home after a day in the field with one of them. ](*,) ....but I kept doing it! :lol:


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## ann schnerre

it's amazing how coats can differ not only between breeds, but in individual dogs, isn't it? just w/GSD, i've found that the more, IDK, "hard" coated dogs are much easier to not only brush burrs out of, but there was a day when it was misty/raining out, and Brix (maybe 9 mo old), just curled up outside the garage i was cleaning and took a nap: no big deal, and his coat was like a duck's back, just shed water. 

and any burrs he picked up just kinda slicked out easily. heaven knows i have had (and do) dogs that it's just a "project" to clean up, but i would think the terriers would have a harder coat due to what they're (suppposedly) bred to do.

are we enough OT now??


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## Bob Scott

OT? 
And me being a mod! 8-[
Say gnight Gracie! :lol:


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## ann schnerre

haha! Gracie's under the desk, and she says "g'night"


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## andreas broqvist

A working terrier/ Shnauzer shuld have Hard trim fur. Not that soft shit peopel are breeding on show dogs thos days.
I absolutly HATE seing a Giant schnauzer looking like hes wearing bigg furry pants! Shawing dogs and Curly shitt fur. Blääääää


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## andreas broqvist

Look at this shitt :









This is how the shuld look


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## Jennifer Marshall

My update at having Jager one week.

He is definitely waking up. He is used to the surroundings now, he isn't exploring every inch of the property so he is really focusing a lot more on toys and treats and me. I am really just working to build a bond with him so far, charging the clicker, and getting him to bite the various things I put in front of him. 

He has very nice prey drive, learned the regrip/counter very quickly, will bite anything. He is a very mature little pup, very sober and serious most of the time. He is starting to let loose and be more of a puppy but that tail never goes down. Crate training was a breeze compared to some other pups I've had around. His food drive increased on a daily basis as he was moved from free feed to scheduled meals.

He does have a feisty side. His love in life is tormenting my bulldog and my cat. He is very smart and uses that nose of his all the time. 

A nice solid little dog, very social and happy but also very persistent and has a HUGE mouth. His muzzle is almost as long as Cuda's, just not nearly as wide. Lots of sharp needly teeth that he regularly tries to sink into my thigh.

I'm looking forward to training the little guy. Nothing seems to bother him environmentally, he will stop and think for a second and then just continue on his merry way or come to investigate.

Again, thank you Don! I will keep posting updates on the monster.


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## Don Turnipseed

Thanks for the update Jennifer. It will be interesting to hear about the progression of airedales and bitework. What is a rebite??? Why do they need it?

Andreas, speaking of coats, my original stock was off show lines and were hair bags and soft coated. Here is a picture of two littermate sisters. On the left is Georgy Girl. She is clipped and has a soft coat typical of the originals. She is one of two I have seen in the 10th gen. Next to her is Patsy and she is not clipped. The later gen dogs look totally different than the originals


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## Jennifer Marshall

Don a regrip/counter is when a dog takes advantage of an opportunity to get a better, deeper/fuller bite. So I stop movement of the prey item and as soon as the pup drives in on the bite I re animate the toy. I use this to encourage action from the pup even when the prey item isn't moving anymore, teaching them that if they just bite harder/fuller, the prey item comes back to life for them and the game continues.


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## Bob Scott

Jennifer, a terrier learns regrip when it grabs nothing but hide and the critter turns in it's skin and latches on a nose.
Gaurantee the next grip willl be deeper. :grin: :wink:
Make everything a game for Jager and the serious dog will come to the surface when the time is ready.
Lucky duck!!


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## Don Turnipseed

Thanks for the explanation and the update Jennifer....makes sense.

Bob, a friend has one of the dogs, Doc Holliday, in Nev. Turned him in on a badger backed into a hole. The badger took a swipe at him and Doc grabbed his leg and jerked him out so hard the badger was air born...grabbed Doc by the cheek on the way by. Doc swung his head into the badger and got his rebite on the neck and shoulder. Pretty much ended that encounter. Now I understand what we are talking about. LOL


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## ann schnerre

uh-oh, i can see it coming: bob's going to get a BIG terrier next...

"the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior...".


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## Don Turnipseed

You can tell he misses them for sure !!!


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Do you have a good helper to work with ?? Most owners screw up the foundation work thanks in part to Leerburgs idiotic don't put your dog on a helper video. 

My X was working her own dog and he was always really flat. One day I went out and played with him and he was expecting me to "give" him the tug. He got pretty worked up when I didn't but I had to work 10 times harder than I should have due to her working the dog in half assed drive.

Just want to see what the little guy can REALLY do. Getting a house, and going to Don's after I get settled.


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## Bob Scott

ann freier said:


> uh-oh, i can see it coming: bob's going to get a BIG terrier next...
> 
> "the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior...".


But for the lack of room! 
I'll always miss the terriers. :-k Wonder if they can herd stock? :lol:
My son just bought his first house. It was broken into while he was upstairs asleep. 
Next day he came buy here and took my last terrier, Pete.   
Pete's already pulled down half the window blinds in the house just watching people walk down the street in HIS new house. Ain't nobody gonna sneak in there again!


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## ann schnerre

with Pete gone, you have room. no excuses NOW...


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## Bob Scott

I was pusing my legal limit with Pete. Limit of two dogs in my subdivision.
I'd be pushing my luck (with my wife) if tried to bring in another dog. 
Been doing it to many years and I'm gonna give her a break. She's alway been way tolerant of my bad habits. :lol: 
I WILL always have a dog.......or two! ;-)


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## ann schnerre

Bob Scott said:


> I was pusing my legal limit with Pete. Limit of two dogs in my subdivision.
> I'd be pushing my luck (with my wife) if tried to bring in another dog.
> Been doing it to many years and I'm gonna give her a break. She's alway been way tolerant of my bad habits. :lol:
> I WILL always have a dog.......or two! ;-)


 
here's how you do it: Thunder or Trooper officially lives w/your son for the subdivision rules, you get a big terrier who DOESN"T shed (right?? or not?), makes your better half happy in that regard. the 2-dog rule: not that hard to do, ep in Misey where the power's always out, and no one can tell what's going on anyway.

problem solved, and you're QUITE welcome


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## Bob Scott

ann freier said:


> here's how you do it: Thunder or Trooper officially lives w/your son for the subdivision rules, you get a big terrier who DOESN"T shed (right?? or not?), makes your better half happy in that regard. the 2-dog rule: not that hard to do, ep in Misey where the power's always out, and no one can tell what's going on anyway.
> 
> problem solved, and you're QUITE welcome


 
:lol::lol::lol: Already been discussed. My son wanted to take Thunder or Trooper but I knew he couldn't handle them. Ain't ever gonna happen with Thunder!
The two yrs I've been in this area Pete's records have all been under son's name. 
The terrieres shed very little. Not at all if stripped on a regular basis. That would be one hell of a job with an Airedale.
Now if I got back into SAR, a SAR dog is exempt from pet status. 
:-k....NAWWW! getting to lazy to work that hard. :lol:


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## ann schnerre

oh, i didn't mean "actually" lives with, i meant "officially" lives with, just comes to your place for extended "visits", like Pete's evidently been doing for a couple of years...haha


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## Bob Scott

Honestly I'd be a bit nervous about the GSDs at the son's place even for a short time. the son never mad a big attempt to connect with them. Doubtful that they'ed listen well. He was 23 when we moved in here and, being 23, his hours at home seldome lined up with the dogs. :grin:
Fact is he complained a couple of times to me about getting growled at by Thunder when he came in at 3-4 in the AM. Go figure! :lol::lol::lol:


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## Don Turnipseed

Talked to Jennifer. She is busy hunting and has been taking Jager to the mountains with her. I am just posting this to keep this thread alive until Jennifer has time to post. It is hunting season up there and I know what that can be like. I am not telling anything she said anyway.....outside of he is doing ok. LOL


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## ann schnerre

we want pics! we want pics!


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## Jennifer Marshall

Pics coming soon! I lent my camera to my brother for hunting season as he stayed at camp for 9 days during elk season. I go up for 2 days every Sunday-Monday and take Cuda and Jager with me. These two are GREAT woods dogs.

We camp at around 3000 ft in the Cascades about 16 miles north of Prospect, Oregon. We hunt up to 6000 ft between Prospect and Butte Falls. I love obstacle courses and everything but nothing beats the mountains! These two get a good workout navigating fallen trees, deadfalls, rotten logs, buckbrush, narrow windy trails, rocky creekbeds and the boulders at the river. 

For being a gangly pup Jager kept his feet quite well and even flushed some grouse for me (mmm!)

He is quite intelligent and competitive with Cuda. I'm glad Cuda is such an easy going dog, he takes the tremendous abuse dished out by Jager and barely batts and eye. I will get pictures of the damage Jager has done to Cuda - two weeks in a row taking literal chunks out of Cuda's back between the shoulder blades while playing. The only time these two are separated is when they are given chewies (like the elk legs they got at camp) as Jager is very very pushy and I would rather not risk a real fight between these two. I am curious to see what happens as both of these two mature, I can see that Jager is going to mature faster than Cuda has and there may be some friction later on.

He definitely lives up to his breeding - he is a dominant little shit. I say that will all the affection I can muster LOL. He is possessive and pushy.

He shredded the leg on a pair of my jeans in less than a minute and tries to sever my achilles tendon at every opportunity.

He is social and confident. If anything phases him he recovers quickly. Curious, adventurous, mischievous, and a lot of fun.

No formal training yet, I am going to start some obedience stuff while he is teething and the tugs are off limits.


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## Don Turnipseed

Jennifer, what about the hunt results??? Are you filling the freezer?
The dogs playing is great but but it often progresses to rough and rougher until it gets real serious. I am sure you noticed that when you were here with the pups on the deck. If no one will give, it is inevitable. 
Now, do we have elk.LOL


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## Don Turnipseed

Jennifer Marshall said:


> He is quite intelligent and competitive with Cuda. I'm glad Cuda is such an easy going dog, he takes the tremendous abuse dished out by Jager and barely batts and eye. I will get pictures of the damage Jager has done to Cuda - two weeks in a row taking literal chunks out of Cuda's back between the shoulder blades while playing. The only time these two are separated is when they are given chewies (like the elk legs they got at camp) as Jager is very very pushy and I would rather not risk a real fight between these two. I am curious to see what happens as both of these two mature, I can see that Jager is going to mature faster than Cuda has and there may be some friction later on.
> 
> He definitely lives up to his breeding - he is a dominant little shit. I say that will all the affection I can muster LOL. He is possessive and pushy.
> 
> He shredded the leg on a pair of my jeans in less than a minute and tries to sever my achilles tendon at every opportunity.
> 
> He is social and confident. If anything phases him he recovers quickly. Curious, adventurous, mischievous, and a lot of fun.
> 
> No formal training yet, I am going to start some obedience stuff while he is teething and the tugs are off limits.


Jennifer, it will all depend on how dominate Cuda turns out as my dogs never pick on lesser dogs unless the lesser dog pushes it. These dogs have always been the dominate dogs wherever they have been and since they are non dog aggressive, they are cool.......unless challenged.

My real interest is in how Jager takes to the work when you start training. Since he is just coming up on 4 mo the second of Nov., it will still be a while before that happens. Not too worried about the tug work even....it is when there is a decoy involved that has me curious.


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## Don Turnipseed

Jennifer, not being a trainer myself and not fully understanding "drive building" as has been used in many of the discussions here, can you tell from beeng around Jager if he is going to need this drive building? Or, do you have to wait until you actually start working with him? I am asking simply because I have never fully understood the concept of "drove building" but since I do understand Jager, it may help from my perspective. The need for "ball drive" and such escapes me as it has little to do with doing the actual job of hunting, or in this case protection. I have to wonder if it is simply indicative of have drive for something.


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## Jennifer Marshall

My only question on keeping these two together depends on Cuda. I know Jager is a very assertive in your face pushy dominant monster, so far Cuda is not. Cuda is not aggressive with Jager and he regularly lets Jager push him over and he rolls around on his back and lets Jager chew on his face. I don't think there will be a problem but anytime there are two intact males together I watch them closely. I don't care which dog is dominant over the other, my concern is preventing vet bills LOL

As far as drive building goes, the training is to bring out the dogs full potential, not to create drive where it doesn't exist. As I interpret the term itself the only thing you are building is the focus the dog has for specific items while in drive. You are getting the dog to express its full potential towards the prey items you select, like a tug, or a ball.

Jager loves anything that moves, including a ball. I will do "drive building" with him as I have done all my dogs, but again my definition is as above, just focusing a dog's drive for specific items.

P.S. Hunting is going well for us so far can't say the same for some others in the areas we hunt. Still need to fill my tag, passed on a few little bucks, missed a nice 3 x 3 thanks to my gun being off about 9" high and a foot to the left! Never let a family member take your gun to camp for you unless its in a gun case. Mine got to ride behind the seat of his truck for a damn week.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Not sure what you are waiting for with that dog. Maybe you are just not that serious.


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## Jennifer Marshall

No, I think training dogs is stupid and a waste of time


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## Jeff Oehlsen

You only have a small window to get it right. I think that is a lot of people's problem. You can roll your eyes all you want, but from what you have posted, your dog plays with your other dogs more than you. Gotta remember how useless bulldogs are, so there is no real pressure to accomplish anything.

People go apeshit over a bulldogs BH at 5. Now there is something to roll your eyes at.


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## Don Turnipseed

Jeff, my personal dogs always spend a lot of time together but they seem to know when playtime is over. It is going to be awhile but, I am really curious to see what it takes to get them after a bad guy like they are serious and not playing a game.


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## Jennifer Marshall

Jeff, I don't post much at all. Would you LIKE me to post after every time I play with the pup? Sorry but at least I think it is a given that someone is going to play with their puppy so I don't post about the number of socks we've gone through playing tug or that he hates the taste of mint flavored tennis balls and eats every cricket he finds in the house.

I post about his interaction with Cuda because it's the only question mark I have. He is a dominant pup, towards other dogs only at this point in life.

I don't leave my dogs unsupervised together, that is how I have so much information on how they interact. 

I HAVE done work with him, just no "formal" obedience because he is 17 weeks old. He sits and downs and I have started working on the heel but nothing is strict or formal in my house when it comes to 17 week old puppies. My focus up to this point has been tugwork and environmental stimuli.


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## Don Turnipseed

Ok, Ok. Jeff The purpose behind this pup is to find out what problems the breed itself may be present in regards to protection work. It wasn't to pick at how the dog is or isn't being handled. Jennifer is posting about the pup so I(In particular), and others if interested, might possibly understand what the breed can or can't do. Will these doigs protect seriously? Yes. Can they put on a show for points in sportwork. I haven't got a clue, but, I want to see how it goes....possibly a few others would be interested also even if it is an off breed.


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## Bob Scott

I'm looking forward to watching Jager's developement! 

Don, I think the term "drive building" isn't a true description. Just what has become the terminology of bite sports. I think it would be a better description to call it drive channeling.
If the correct "drive" isn't there it can't be built. If it's there then the tug/keepaway/etc games only channel it in the direction needed for the given sport/work.
A terrier pup being allowed to "rag" the quarry after it's "collected" is one simple bit of "drive channeling". 
Same thing with some hound folks using a drag in starting pups.
In both cases the pups have the drive. They'er just being shown how to channel it.


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## Don Turnipseed

"A terrier pup being allowed to "rag" the quarry after it's "collected" is one simple bit of "drive channeling". 

Now that I understand Bob. Thanks LOL


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## Bob Scott

Somehow I figured that would ring a bell. :grin: :wink:


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## tracey schneider

My personal opinion........... they are not going to get along forever and the ONLY reason they are getting along right now is because Cuda doesnt take him as a "challenge" the day he does they WILL be fighting. Don knows his lines and I know mine.........they sound very similar in that respect.

Mark my words on that one...............if Im wrong I will eat poop.......I just really dont think that I am.:-\"

t


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## Don Turnipseed

tracey delin said:


> My personal opinion........... they are not going to get along forever and the ONLY reason they are getting along right now is because Cuda doesnt take him as a "challenge" the day he does they WILL be fighting. Don knows his lines and I know mine.........they sound very similar in that respect.
> 
> Mark my words on that one...............if Im wrong I will eat poop.......I just really dont think that I am.:-\"
> 
> t


I just don't know Tracey. Speaking only for the "my half" of the equasion, as adults, they never pick on subordinate dogs. They always seek out the worst and are satsfied if they submit. It is their dominance the insist on is always settled by the other dog submitting. The problem is pits. They don't fight for dominance, they fight for the love of the fight. I have had to save a number of them for there very disgruntled owners. I don't knoiw how AB's are in this respect. If Cuda is less dominate and doesn't challenge Jager, Jager won't bother him as his dominance is accepted. If Cuda challenges his dominance, there will be a problem. With breeds outside of the bull breeds, I could safely say there won't be a problem. Is Cuda one of your dogs?


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## tracey schneider

To make a long story very very short....YES on Cuda being one of my dogs/ family of dogs. My dogs are exactly the same way which is why they are getting along now. They are not "dog aggressive" for the sake of being dog aggressive. They are "dominate aggressive" and possession / territory. Right now cuda doesnt consider the puppy a challenge so all is well.

If the puppy is from the same type of dog mentatlity.......obviously you know as well as I do....... there WILL be problems. 

t

ps..... put it this way if those two dogs make it to 3 years without a fight........I conceed..... However I dont think they will make anywhere near three (Im thinking three is a HUGE exaggeration)

PSS oh and i cant say they will be completely satisfied by mere submission, sometimes yes sometimes no, that really depends on things I dont want to get into.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Oh God, Please sign me up for a dog like that. My money is on the Airdale. What are the lines for this event ?? I want to put some money down.


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## Jennifer Marshall

Tracey, thanks for the info. I figured as much about Jager not being a threat/real challenge, I also attribute it to Cuda still being a pup. Even if one was clearly subordinate and there never ever was a fight or problem I would not allow them to be unsupervised together simply because they are intact males. I do require my dogs to not kill each other if they are both in the living room with me but that does not mean I expect them to be angels if left alone.

They are worked separately unless I have Jager tied out across the yard watching me work Cuda and visa versa. They are allowed to play and interact for an hour or two supervised a day the rest of the time I have one dog crated or in the yard and one dog in, I switch and work with both of them equally. Cuda is loose in my room at night and Jager is in his crate at the foot of my bed.

These two both get worked the same amount but I'm always doing something different. Jager will begin teething soon and my focus will be OB instead of bitework until his adult teeth are in. I am very lucky in that I work part time out of the house and am now starting to work part time at home. I have 8 hours a day bare minimum on my work days to work these two. I say lucky because I have time to devote to them and *love* every second of it, though the lack of $$$$ aspect doesn't make me lucky LOL but that is changing soon (fingers crossed)

I hope to trial Cuda next year and some day I will have a freaking vid cam and a slave to operate it while I work!

Tracey, how is Blanco doing?


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## tracey schneider

Jennifer Marshall said:


> Tracey, how is Blanco doing?


He is doing great.........still very happy with him.........thanks for asking........:smile:

t


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## Jennifer Marshall

Ok been a while since I have updated. Pictures soon, I'm just dumb and keep forgetting to bring my camera so I can upload them.

Jager is doing well. Had a rough time for a while with him, he became very disinterested in bitework after him and Cuda caught some unfortunate critters in my backyard. They teamed up and killed a few rabbits, squirrels, and a turkey. I don't know why they still come into the fenced portion of the yard where the dogs are, but the boys are sure a good team!

I went back to basics and tried every material I could get my hands on for the flirtpole. I make fleece tugs and tried putting strips of rabbit fur in it to encourage his interest but his goal was simply to rip the fur out of it. Burlap, canvas, fleece, towels, old shirts and jeans... barely any interest no matter how much they moved or shook or flapped, after the initial capture he wouldn't chase them again. After ripping apart a few squirrels, his old tugs and rag didn't interest him much. 

But yesterday I pulled out my leather, some good moccasin weight (11oz) deerskin (expensive) and cut out a chunk and made a rag and what do you know he loved it. It flapped and fluttered and snapped and he's back to where I had him before he started teething. He was really commited to the chase again, and countered well/kept interest while tugging and was very proud while carrying each time I let him win.

So last night I made rolled leather tugs of varying lengths and thicknesses to try. Fingers crossed that I can keep them from killing anything else and maintain Jager's interest in non living prey items.

I did make the mistake of watching the boys catch their first rabbit and squirrel. I didn't have any issue with Cuda not wanting to do bitework after killing something so I didn't think anything of it. Definitely a lesson learned with a hunting bred Airedale. 

It's amazing how fast they can kill something and start ripping it up - I let them out to pee(no turkey in sight) and a minute or so later I check on them out the window to see if they were done and they already had the damn thing. I ran outside and there were already feathers everywhere. That is the second turkey that has hopped our fence and neither of them made it out.

He is very intelligent and a complete goof, still very much a puppy and I have a feeling he is going to mature more slowly than Cuda has. 

And WOW what a nose! His schnoz is huge and never quits - the more I exercise him and tire him out to hopefully increase his focus for training the more his nose takes control of his brain. I keep any training session with him short and am working hard to slowly and gradually increase his attention span. Right now his maximum is 5 or so minutes for obedience, after that his nose gets the better of him and overrides his desire for the treats. Hes a sniff monster.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Wow, thanks for the update. Made me think about trying to build toy interest in a 5 year old dog that had worked with livestock all her life and had a few successful hunts. Didn't get very far with it. I'd definitely shut down the hunt activities; especially ones that don't involve you. Looking forward to the next installment.


Terrasita


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## Bob Scott

Once a terrier's hunt instincts kick in the rest of the world can be pretty boring.


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## Jennifer Marshall

Yeah no kidding, Bob! I was being a dumb blonde thinking "wow this is interesting to watch" when they first started... then I noticed the negative side affects and found out how difficult it is to prevent them from catching critters. With all the wildlife we have around my house I may just have to resort 100% supervision every second Jager is outside, with him on his long line. 

Even when Jager is in his kennel that has a roof and the fences are 18" underground he still got a squirrel, and a rat.

Anyhow, it is a work in progress, hopefully he will continue to improve and bite for the pleasure of biting rather than only seeking the kill.


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## Nicole Stark

In reply to Bobs post: Once a terrier's hunt instincts kick in the rest of the world can be pretty boring.
__________________


Or in the case of my dog (mastiff), her world suddenly and finally became interesting to her. At my cabin I'd find her at the base of trees or in the weeds rooting around head buried then head up high, ears back and tightly folded against her head, and tail up like a scorpion wagging back and forth stiffly. She'd stay in that state for hours, looking, digging, sniffing, pacing, etc. Always returning with a dirt covered face and ears with grass and leaves tucked into her jowls. I have to admit though after not being interested in much other than obstacles and food it was a bit refreshing to see something that captured and held her interest like that.


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## Bob Scott

Jennifer, do TONS of motivational recalls with that dog. I'll bet you a dollar to a doughnut that his critter prey will be very much resistant to your commands now that he's really aware.

Nichole, you've found the key! 
All you need to do is start marker training with a chipmunk in you pocket for reward! :-D:wink:


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## Gerry Grimwood

Jennifer Marshall said:


> Anyhow, it is a work in progress, hopefully he will continue to improve and bite for the pleasure of biting rather than only seeking the kill.


Just curious but isn't he bred for hunting ?


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## Jennifer Marshall

Bob, I only teach the recall motivationally but yes I completely agree now that he has the experience of chase-kill I'm going to be upping the ante. 

I don't give him opportunity to blow me off, when he was in the chase I didn't bother calling him. I waited it out. He surprised me, though - if he was the one to catch it, he always brought it to me, very proud of himself. I would trade him for a chunk of raw elk or venison and get rid of the critter.

I have him on a long line more often than not, I use paracord in lengths from 20' to 60' and since I realized the problem have been supervising/keeping him on a line unless he is in his pen/kennel. The only kills since the first few have been in the dog pens/kennels when I was at work(mostly rats but a few squirrels), and that damn stupid turkey.


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## Jennifer Marshall

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Just curious but isn't he bred for hunting ?


 
Yes, he is. Which is part of the reason I allowed them to catch the first few rabbits and squirrel they got. I have not owned a terrier before so in my inexperience and stupidity did not realize that allowing him to hunt in my backyard with my AB was going to create a problem. Cuda, the AB, has caught and killed quite a few critters and maintained all his drive for toys and tugs so I thought it wouldn't do any harm. I was wrong and it has been frustrating trying to regain his interest in tugwork/biting non-living prey items.

But, hopefully I am on the right track after it took me way too long to figure on using leather. I will keep everyone posted.


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## Nicole Stark

Bob Scott said:


> Jennifer, do TONS of motivational recalls with that dog. I'll bet you a dollar to a doughnut that his critter prey will be very much resistant to your commands now that he's really aware.
> 
> Nichole, you've found the key!
> All you need to do is start marker training with a chipmunk in you pocket for reward! :-D:wink:


It does seem that way. And yes, different breed but same issue "command resistant". I had to tether mine behind a 4 wheeler for 1 1/2 miles and lock her in my cabin to get her to forget about the porcupine she tangled with. On that day someone took her ears away and borrowed her brain for a while, I think.


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## Don Turnipseed

Good info Jennifer. The dogs that have been worked befoire were generally raised where live game wasn't a factor. While I don't think it would be as big a factor with many Airedales today, these dogs hunt for the fight and the kill which is largely the real motivation behind the smaller terriers. 

Possibly some techniques used by hound hunters will help. Many dogs have an affinity for leather. If any of the squirrels or other game are big enough, you might possibly skin them out and use them as the reward. Will help to keep them frozen. LOL Reward systems come to mind but, I am not a trainer and actually understand how to bring out the full potential of the hunt/fight/kill far better than I know how to suppress it while keeping the dog motivated. Is there a way to reward the dog, after the fact, for doing a good job? Short of taking him hunting or letting him kill something? Something else he truly has a passion for?
Airedales, as you mentioned, are not fast maturing dogs. I look at these as the predators of the dog world and the predators tend to be slower as there is an art to learning to engage things like badgers, bobcats and larger game and winning. They start out with the small stuff as Jager is doing and end up capable of taking down a deer. The question is how to redirect to what you want.


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## Don Turnipseed

I may have left some confusion in then last post, after skinning the animal, I was referring to using the hide, not the animal. Also now that I am awake, it occurred to me I should have mentioned this. A friend with two of my dogs that are killing machines and have a ton of prey were taken by for an evaluation for protection. Several items were thrown such as balls and whatever else is used and the dogs both sat there looking at their owner loke, "what's with the balls and stuff?" I think the determination was that they didn't have enough prey drive. The fact was they just didn't get turned on by a ball.


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## maggie fraser

This is a good thread....

I don't know if this will help much but thought I'd contribute just a little anyway. I've had jack russell terriers, long line working bred, two of which I raised from very young. I never trained them in anything as such other than some good control as I like to go out and about in all different manner of scenarios and environments, for example an outing to the public park with two jrts and two gsds.

I do not ever recall having a problem with recall with the terriers, in fact they seldom if ever had a leash on them till they were over a year old, but those were generally reasons for safety. They had quite a lot of 'supervised' freedom at home, I usually encouraged them (all the dogs) to 'go find a mouse' in the paddock by the house to get them out my hair for a time, they were very good at it, mouse could also mean anything else they caught there. However, I had laid the boundaries of the area they were to hunt through my more mature gsd, anyway my point is this; I don't think the fact that the pup has had a live chase and kill should necessarily inhibit your training of him, but more maybe just a change of approach to get through to the pup.

I was always in pack mode with this bunch of dogs, I think if you take them out and about and you 'travel' I'm talking about on foot here, some places they get to hunt, others they don't ,and they regard you as part of the hunt, they look to you for the next move. I may well be quite wrong there but I'm sure Don may put me right at least I hope so anyway, and that is how you can get the undivided attention of a terrier - you could forget about compulsion and containment for now - and try using the reverse, it may be worth it, but maybe not as you will need to have the time to spend with the dog for this, I don't know if you have this kind of time. 

I started taking my jrt to the schH field while training the gsd, he would sit in the van and patiently wait his turn out, loved the tug work, even the ob, hell I even started him doing a send away last year, he absolutely loves it, it's such a shame he has half his teeth missing.... he's twelve years old. I think probably with the terriers you have to understand what makes them tick, much more so than the herders, but my jrts have been proud as punch to walk off leash at heel with me.... 'cos I've been god in the nicest possible way :grin:

I'm just sharing my experience here.... I know that if Don's pups were located here I would be kinda interested to do what you're doing, but I would take things in my own time.


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## Jennifer Marshall

Don I did try using furs, just not from the actual critters they killed. The critters were pretty torn up from both dogs taking part in the fun. I should have taken a picture of the rabbit they played tug of war with. Wow was that a mess.

I tried rabbit fur mostly, I made a big braided fleece tug and braided some fur into it but he wouldn't bite and hold it, he just tried to rip the fur out of it. I think using the critters/furs as a tug/reward would only increase his interest and focus on critters. I am hoping that now he is showing interest in the leather I can show him that while tugs and toys don't scream and bleed they can still be fun. 

Jager, thankfully, enjoys playing with a ball but his coordination and attention need work LOL. He still doesn't always realize that I've thrown it. About 25% of the time he follows the motion of my hand but doesn't see the ball go flying, he just keeps staring at my hand. He is a total clown and a lot of fun to be around.


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## Don Turnipseed

Hi Maggie. I have had numerous dogs that hunted for themselves. They acted a touch feral anyway and didn't care to be touched even if they were right by me most the time. They were all excellent hunters and as serious as a heart attack but left much to be desired as a hunting companion. They had their good points but being willing to against all odds was not one of them. After watching the way they acted I came to the conclusion that along with acting more feral, they were in the sense they seemed to possess a bit more survival instinct than the ones that knew we were supposed to be a team and trusted me to pull their fat out of the fire. Usually the more feral acting dogs were off hunting for themselves anyway....usually for several days before they would come in. The biggest problem was they would take the really good young dogs with them......so many were not around long.. I never expect a dog to walk with me. If they walk with me they won't be with me long because they aren't out hunting. If I wanted them to walk with me I would get a pet dog. 

I'll give you an idea of what it is like to hunt with them. They are very loud breathers when they hunt. You can hear three of them way up on the mountain. When I drop the tailgate and open the dog boxes, it is like you can hear "The Ride of the Valkiries"(by Richard Wagner) emanating from the heavens. That is the music they played from the gunships, in "Apocolypse Now", as the flew up the Mekong. The dogs come off the back of the truck at full stride and course through the mountains. Of I can nhear that heavy breathing, I know every living thing there can hear it and I know it strikes fear in them all because the dogs take no prisoners. LOL How is that for a picture. Jennifer may be able to picture what three adults may be like. LOL Anyway, back to the topic.
Jager was more independent than the other pups but was still friendly as could be......more importance was placed on the stuffed animals he was killing than coming for treats with the others. I just saw Jennifers post so the hides won't work. My next thought is a whoopi cushion inside the tug. Just kidding about that. I guess do what you have to. He will only be 6 mo the first so he he still a lot of pup.


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## maggie fraser

_About 25% of the time he follows the motion of my hand but doesn't see the ball go flying, he just keeps staring at my hand. He is a total clown and a lot of fun to be around._

I have found this too....

When they do this.. look at your hand, they will then probably make eye contact with you..

You can then redirect with your eyes and head movement, I employed a hand signal also in the direction of the toy.... it's like they need to be taught this sometime.

I get this quite a lot with my guy now that he's starting to get on in years, but he'll use his ears.


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## maggie fraser

Don, I have no experience of Airedales, I was relaying what limited experience I have of a terrier independance, I get your picture.... I've seen Apocalypse Now'.

I'll keep it to myself!


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## Don Turnipseed

maggie fraser said:


> Don, I get your picture.... I've seen Apocalypse Now'.
> 
> I'll keep it to myself!


Guess you have to be there to really appreciate them Maggie. LOL


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## Nicole Stark

Jennifer Marshall said:


> Don I did try using furs, just not from the actual critters they killed. The critters were pretty torn up from both dogs taking part in the fun. I should have taken a picture of the rabbit they played tug of war with. Wow was that a mess.
> 
> I tried rabbit fur mostly, I made a big braided fleece tug and braided some fur into it but he wouldn't bite and hold it, he just tried to rip the fur out of it. I think using the critters/furs as a tug/reward would only increase his interest and focus on critters. I am hoping that now he is showing interest in the leather I can show him that while tugs and toys don't scream and bleed they can still be fun.
> 
> Jager, thankfully, enjoys playing with a ball but his coordination and attention need work LOL. He still doesn't always realize that I've thrown it. About 25% of the time he follows the motion of my hand but doesn't see the ball go flying, he just keeps staring at my hand. He is a total clown and a lot of fun to be around.


Sounds like your dog is my dog just with a curly coat and boy things.  What would you like to eventually do with him? I'm interested in hearing how he progresses, at the very least it sounds like you have at least a moderate amount of interest in toys from him, which is something I didn't have to work with. She did like the Robit though, still does and it remains her favorite toy. I also used leather, furs, tails, rope tugs with pig ears, I could go on but I'd embarrass myself I think. But, just like with your boy she wanted to do the same when she got hold of it which was to possess it and tear it up. 

Eventually I gave all that up and just did with her what she does best - she seems to be willing to do tracking, service type activities that are not repetitive, and has recently taken to detection type work so this is what we do and of course, when she can she's goes off hunting. 

Good luck with your pup.


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## maggie fraser

Don Turnipseed said:


> Guess you have to be there to really appreciate them Maggie. LOL


 
I believe you Don without a shadow of a doubt.... as a matter of curiosity, where do you think is a middle ground for taking a dog straight from here to a ring sport like mondio as Jennifer is jouneying to ?

I'm asking because I'm trying to learn something.


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## Don Turnipseed

Maggie, Not sure exactly what you mean, but, understanding them is a necessity first off. It is of course going to require more unconventional technique that what is generally used to motivate many of the breeds. Certain breeds are motivated and triggered by pain. The airedale is one of them. One of the most fascinating aspects of working with the dogs is the many hours of thought required to elicite a particular response from the dog because you can't force them. Many times I have to sit back and come up with something that leads up to the dog doing exactly what I wanted, but, all the decisions were his. They are smart dogs so it, at times, requires a lot of creativity and thinking out of the box for what would be normal training procedure. For instance a tug on a stick that canj be pushed as well as pulled. Possibly stealing parts of a remotely activated toy to make something seem to be alive or dead that the trainer can control until the transition is made. Even a simple wind up mechanism might work....it would die as the spring wound down. Possibly just plain perseverance.


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## Gerry Grimwood

Don, I know hogs couldn't cover the ground the same but do you think your dogs would like antelope or deer hunting ??

Maybe not as the initial presence, but as a tracking/killing after the shot kinda thing if the animal wasn't killed outright ?


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## Don Turnipseed

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Don, I know hogs couldn't cover the ground the same but do you think your dogs would like antelope or deer hunting ??
> 
> Maybe not as the initial presence, but as a tracking/killing after the shot kinda thing if the animal wasn't killed outright ?


They would love it Gerry.....as long as it has some fight in it.


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## Don Turnipseed

Actually, I like the idea of a padded stick like a jousting stick. You could actually simulate a fight by thumping the dog in the chest and so forth. The stick lends the rigidty to it so they can feel the fight. Dogs like this don't wool dead prey around normally unless they are young. They kill and leave it to look for another one to kill. Personally, I think this is why BD's and dogs like dales tend to seem to start strong and finish weaker. The decoy starts, I presume, like gangbusters and slows up as the exercise progresses. When the decoy seems to be losing his fight, the dogs back off to just apply enough to keep him under his control. Do any trainers use anything such as a jousting stick to take the fight to the dog or is it just tugs?


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## Jennifer Marshall

During training the "fight" is pressure put on the dog by means of leaning into/over them them, using your hands or feet to slap or smack or pat them on the body, touching then grabbing feet and legs and tail, poking, thumping, wrapping your legs or arms or body around them, picking them up, yelling, growling, making angry noises etc. the clatter stick is also used a lot in training but not for actual strikes during a trial. In a trial the decoy has to abide by the rules but usually puts as much pressure as he can on the dog in hopes of pissing it off and making it not want to let go to steal points with extra commands/slow to outs.

Environmental stuff is also added in as props and completely random items used to distract the dog. Props/accessories are used to steal points by making the dog take longer to bite/the dog may bite the accessory. It is more about stress than pain.

During a trial the decoy keeps fighting the dog until the handler recalls, then they become still. I teach my dogs to bite harder/deeper when the item becomes still in order to reanimate it. So when the tug is not moving they drive in and the reward is I then continue the game. I increase the amount of time the tug is still so they are fighting longer and maintaining the big bite for longer before I reward with continuing the game or letting them win and having the tug to carry around. So rather than the dog thinking the game/fun is over because there is less/no movement, I teach them to fight harder.

I have not gotten to this stage with Jager yet, he counters naturally when actually tugging by getting a deeper bite when I present him with the opportunity but I have not put much pressure on him. He's still just a youngun and I am going to take my time with him. At this very moment I don't care much what his bite is like as long as he is biting, and tugging. If he maintains interest I will work on quality of the bite and I then transition from leather to other materials and tugs again.


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## Bob Scott

I've never looked at any of my hunting terriers as "stubborn". That's all about the connection between dog and handler. Of the 100+ terriers that I've dug to I've only see a couple that could be called out of the ground in a fight. One of those was my JRT. Above ground is different. I think the dog doesn't think about backing out as it does in the ground. Above ground any dog with sense isn't going to turn it's back on quarry.
Don, I totally agree about the terriers not wasting time ragging/wooling quarry once it's dead. I had a nice show line Norwich that wasn't good for anything other then field mice and the little bassid swallowed everyone he could. 
The old rat pitting terriers didn't chase the rats all over the pit. It herded them in a spot and just snatched and killed as they tried to break and run. They were timed events and any time spent on ones already killed just lost time. 
The terriers are a different animal when it comes to working with them. Lots of contradictions to them and their training takes a different outlook. 
Most of the little guys have tons of prey but, as you said, the game stops when the toy/critter looses it's....errr...animation. :lol:

Maggie, if the dog is following your hand, just toss the ball slower and a shorter distance tiil he catches on. He's just not understand yet.


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## Jennifer Marshall

Bob, I started out like I do with all pups by just rolling the ball a short distance and he caught on quick at first, he will be looking right at my hand when the ball leaves it and I am not throwing it more than 10-15 feet most of the time and he will just keep staring at my hand. A majority of the time the ball gets thrown he is all over it like stink on a turd but 25% of the time I think his brain turns off or his eyes are not getting the message through fast enough.

Because of the 25% that he doesn't realize its been thrown he doesn't get to play with Cuda yet. Cuda is way too fast, Jage would never get the ball. I use a chuck in to huck that ball as far as I can for Cuda. I will go back and forth at the gate tossing a ball for Jager then a different one for Cuda, 2 ball with each dog, and Jager will stand at the gate with his ball in his mouth and watch me throw the ball for Cuda, he follows the arm motion and the path of the ball. One on one with him close to me he doesn't always seem to get it.

I also don't see him as being stubborn, just observant (unless playing ball LOL) to what I am doing and being a pup he will test his boundaries and see what he can get away with. I just have to try and outthink him.


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## Bob Scott

I woud be sure the two dogs have a good bond between the two before I started playing ball with both of them. If one becomes possessive it could get way more interesting then you want. 
Even with a healthy dominance it could cause issues. 
My two, intact male GSDs are kennelled together. Play great and never fight but if I tossed a ball, Thunder would get it and Trooper would sit back and wait. That took a little work to get Trooper to retrieve because of that. Away from Thunder and he's fine. No aggression from Thunder but the respect for who's allowed to chase it. I wont try and fight that. It's to much a part of what keeps my dogs under MY control.


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## Jennifer Marshall

Bob, no worries there I take every precaution especially with two intact males. Jager is still young and his testicles have not kicked in, Cuda is very tolerant and does not feel threatened by Jager because he is a pup. As Jager matures I am sure things will change but for now Jager's interest in things is increased when he watches Cuda, he didn't want to play with a ball at all when I first got him, until I played 2 ball with Cuda while he watched. 

I have played with both of them in the backyard/short distance and whoever gets it, gets it, no miffs because I have another ball I toss right away. If Jager gets it, Cuda looks for the other ball to be thrown, if Cuda gets it and Jager was paying attention, I toss it close for him immediately.

If it came to one dog respecting another dog's rank and not chasing a ball I would just play with more than one and toss in different directions one right after the other, or seperately. I have seperate pens and yards set up for when they do mature and am fully prepared to not be able to keep them together later in life unless they are closely supervised. I've played the two possessive dogs game before.


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## Bob Scott

Remember that there is very, very little threat display in the terriers. The switch goes on or off!
I always called my first Border Terrier my John Wayne dog. He'd just stand around like he was ignoring the world. He'd even get pushed around till it became serious then BANG! 
I think most threat display is nothhing more then trying to bluff the other dog. Terriers don't feel the need for that game.


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## Don Turnipseed

Jennifer Marshall said:


> During training the "fight" is pressure put on the dog by means of leaning into/over them them, using your hands or feet to slap or smack or pat them on the body, touching then grabbing feet and legs and tail, poking, thumping, wrapping your legs or arms or body around them, picking them up, yelling, growling, making angry noises etc. the clatter stick is also used a lot in training but not for actual strikes during a trial. In a trial the decoy has to abide by the rules but usually puts as much pressure as he can on the dog in hopes of pissing it off and making it not want to let go to steal points with extra commands/slow to outs.
> 
> Environmental stuff is also added in as props and completely random items used to distract the dog. Props/accessories are used to steal points by making the dog take longer to bite/the dog may bite the accessory. It is more about stress than pain.
> 
> During a trial the decoy keeps fighting the dog until the handler recalls, then they become still. I teach my dogs to bite harder/deeper when the item becomes still in order to reanimate it. So when the tug is not moving they drive in and the reward is I then continue the game. I increase the amount of time the tug is still so they are fighting longer and maintaining the big bite for longer before I reward with continuing the game or letting them win and having the tug to carry around. So rather than the dog thinking the game/fun is over because there is less/no movement, I teach them to fight harder.
> 
> I have not gotten to this stage with Jager yet, he counters naturally when actually tugging by getting a deeper bite when I present him with the opportunity but I have not put much pressure on him. He's still just a youngun and I am going to take my time with him. At this very moment I don't care much what his bite is like as long as he is biting, and tugging. If he maintains interest I will work on quality of the bite and I then transition from leather to other materials and tugs again.


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## Jennifer Marshall

Bob, thanks, I will keep that in mind. I pay more attention to body language than vocalization. I watch my animals closely and have studies canine body language for most of my life, starting with wolves when I was a kid. I watch the ears, eyes, tail, and for things like stiffening of the legs, raising or lowering of the head, etc. I have been doing behavior mod of aggression and other issues for years and watch for all warning signs.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Well, I'm curious as to what Don thinks about working Jager with another dog and the statement that he shows greater interest with the other dog present. My gut says that some breeds are less given to dog-human bonding than others. It seems to me that the more Jager packs up with another dog and engages in animal world, especially the doggie ultimate [hunt/kill], the less use he will have for the human world. It seems he would have the best chance for what for him will be artificial prey/kill if he isn't allowed to engage in the real deal and pack with other dogs. I think he needs to get his thrills through Jennifer and not on his own or in association with another dog. I'm also considering Jennifer's description of him as independent when the puppy testing/selection was done. 

Terrasita


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## Nicole Stark

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Well, I'm curious as to what Don thinks about working Jager with another dog and the statement that he shows greater interest with the other dog present. My gut says that some breeds are less given to dog-human bonding than others. It seems to me that the more Jager packs up with another dog and engages in animal world, especially the doggie ultimate [hunt/kill], the less use he will have for the human world. It seems he would have the best chance for what for him will be artificial prey/kill if he isn't allowed to engage in the real deal and pack with other dogs. I think he needs to get his thrills through Jennifer and not on his own or in association with another dog. I'm also considering Jennifer's description of him as independent when the puppy testing/selection was done.
> 
> Terrasita


My experience tells me this is highly probable. However, Don is far more interested and involved in this "experiment" than my own breeder was, they are also dealing with a very different breed than I, and Jennifer is far more experienced and has access to better resources than I did. These things, despite what is being reported now, may tip the scales enough for her to achieve her goals with him. 

It seems to me that this thread is rolling out almost as if I wrote it myself so it has my interest and full attention. Much of what has been stated as attempted thus far with this puppy or even suggested for him, I tried and then some with my own dog. Unfortunately, considering the things I attempted, and knowing what I do now, I honestly wouldn't bother ever repeating again. A challenge for sure, and one I sincerely hope turns out rather well in the end. I'd like to see some video of him as he develops - regardless of what it might be of I'm interested in seeing what his general character is like.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Its a very interesting experiment huge opportunity to learn/observe behavior characteristics and selection in general. More than any that I've read about, Don's dogs exist in a doggie pack world very close to nature. Cuda's role in this is interesting. I'm not sure of his age but no doubt I envision Jager as a social ladder climber. Tieing him out to have him watch seems based on the competition theory. Given Jager's independent dominant nature, this seems dangerous if you are going to continue to try to run them together. If you take it out, you don't have to compete with it. Choosing a certain dog in the pack to work, can perceivably raise the rank of that dog to the other dogs. The alpha or alpha wanna be may object. I wonder of the dogs Don has placed, how many are neutered/spayed [kinda preserves that puppy state of mind] companions vs. intact dogs in a multi dog pack.


Terrasita


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## Don Turnipseed

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Well, I'm curious as to what Don thinks about working Jager with another dog and the statement that he shows greater interest with the other dog present. My gut says that some breeds are less given to dog-human bonding than others. It seems to me that the more Jager packs up with another dog and engages in animal world, especially the doggie ultimate [hunt/kill], the less use he will have for the human world. It seems he would have the best chance for what for him will be artificial prey/kill if he isn't allowed to engage in the real deal and pack with other dogs. I think he needs to get his thrills through Jennifer and not on his own or in association with another dog. I'm also considering Jennifer's description of him as independent when the puppy testing/selection was done.
> Terrasita


Interesting question Terrasita. I don't really give it a lot of thought even though I may notice things like this here with the dogs. To me, it isn't a lot different than the dogs prefering to eat out of another dogs dish even though they have the same food in them. My dogs are raised in packs and are worked in multiples so I am used to seeing the intereaction between them. I think the big difference is that my dogs are treated like dogs and not house pets. While they spend 90% of their time with each other in their respective yards, I give them things the other dogs are not capable of giving them. They don't get to hunt unless I take them. I don't try to remove them from being dogs because that is what they are. I am most interested in behaviors and natural instinct. My goal in breeding is to breed dogs that have the natural instincts they are supposed to have, that is why I don't get into training per se. I leave the training to the trainers that enjoy it. Working dogs in multples has taught me that they learn things from other dogs faster than they learn them from me. 
I don't know how Jennifer handles the dogs and how they are handled will determine their relationship. That personal relationship will determine what she can and can't do with the dogs. It will determine what the dog is going to want to do for her It will determine if the dog would rather be with her or the other dog. The dog will be 6 mo tomorrow so I would see no need to worry about much at this point. A puppies world should be one of learning his environment and using his mind. There is plenty of time for him to learn that there are good things Jennifer can supply that the other dog can't For instance, while I am not a trainer, I do know how to illicit a particular response from them quickly without wasting days and weeks doing it the accepted way. These dogs are strong enough and smart enough to employ methods that might break many dogs. Why do I choose to not to spend weeks mollycoddling them ? Because they get bored with repetition easily. If they can pick it up in five minutes, there is no way I can hold their interest by taking weeks repeating the same thing. I use the older dogs to train as much as possible.When I want the dogs to load up in the truck, I don't take the young dog out and teach him. I take them with several older dogs and when I say Truck, the older ones load up, the younger ones follow suit. In just a couple of outings, the youger dogs load automatically when I say truck. How do I get a whole itter of 7 week old pups to sit inside of 20 minutes when they are out in the yards? I use an older dog. When he sits, he gets a treat. Inside of 15 or twenty minutes I can have 10 wild pups all sitting at the same time without having ever teaching any one of them to sit. Why? Because they watched the older dog. They also remember it. 
Do I think there is something strange about Jager working better with the other dog there....not at all. At 6 mo, he is probably full of himself and does a better job because "HE" is the one being played with and not Cuda. There ate two sides to this. If a dog has some bad traits such as being gunshy, they will never be around the young dogs. They pick up bad stuff just as quick.


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## maggie fraser

_Working dogs in multples has taught me that they learn things from other dogs faster than they learn them from me._ 

This is what I was trying to have a stab at earlier on in the thread, a good trick I think though is if you only have one other dog, is that it is very keen and attentive and really wants to be with the handler, (even when hunting in the paddock), dispenses with lots of 'conditioning' stuff. That was where the mature, trained gsd bit came in.

I wouldn't have a go at training a terrier employing these kinds of conditioning techniques but I am only referring to control, interest and attention here. Plus I don't have too much formal dog training experience as yet.

I knew a really lovely man from the schH club I went to, his gsd bitch was on her three I think.... he cleaned up the ob classes at Crufts with his border terriers, he seemed to have a similar outlook.

I'll bow out now ....


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## Terrasita Cuffie

I was always in pack mode with this bunch of dogs, I think if you take them out and about and you 'travel' I'm talking about on foot here, some places they get to hunt, others they don't ,*and they regard you as part of the hunt*, they look to you for the next move. .[/quote]


Maggie,

I've underlined in bold the most important part of your post. The prey/hunt is the most important thing to a dog---or so some say [Kevin Beehan---The Natural Dog]. For the dog, you are either a part of the hunt or you are impeding it. You engaged your JRTs in the real thing. I'll go out on a limb here and say that while the protection sports are an extension of the dog's natural drives, they are somewhat artificial. A lot of it is based on game or a mere simulation of the real. Some dogs care about the real vs. artificial and you won't be able to motivate them to play the artificial game. Some of the old timers used animal hide drags to teach tracking. Don has posed some interesting issues with a truly natural dog. One of the things is that once the prey is dead, they don't really care much for it. He actually suggests what sounds like more defense training to begin with because the dogs get off on the fight. This departs from what has become more traditional training with starting with prey training and bite development before moving on to the more defensive stuff. It seems that you have to convince them that it has a reality component. For some dogs, the game doesn't hold a candle to the real aspects of prey/hunt/territoriality. They may play it for awhile but it will be short lived because I think they just become bored with it. This is why Jager's development is really interesting. I had already counted that he was just six months old and puppies move in and out of phases and drive expression can/does change with age/maturity. Next it will be really cool to see him as 18 months and 3 years.


Terrasita


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## maggie fraser

Thanks Terrasita, I hear what you say well. I'm just very curious along with others here about where that bridge is, it's an interesting one!


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## Don Turnipseed

> Terrasita== Don has posed some interesting issues with a truly natural dog. One of the things is that once the prey is dead, they don't really care much for it. He actually suggests what sounds like more defense training to begin with because the dogs get off on the fight. This departs from what has become more traditional training with starting with prey training and bite development before moving on to the more defensive stuff.


Here is where I have a very difficult time with these conversations. I don't actually see the dogs being defensive at all when they go searchi8ng for the prey withn the intent on taking it down. I was talking to a friend that has a SCH III and he said it wasn't actually that the dog was being defensive at all, but it is more about the situation. I am supposing what he is saying is that when the hog is running the dog is in prey, when the hog stopps to fight, the dog should be in defense even if he is actually living for this fight and is pushing it. The next alternative is to cur and run.
Even in my state of confusion over terminology, it is going to be interest to see the obstacles encountered as Jager progresses. Hopefully, Jager will get to enjoy it as a game, but, my guess is some of the training is going to have to move or progress to the point that it is an actual physical challenge to Jager. Or the rougher the better.
Terrasita mentioned training starting with prey training and bite developement. While Jager is displaying strong prey drive in catching and killing critters, How would it be directed if that prey drive was directed through training.....or is there a difference?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

She needs to quit farting around with this dog, and have someone that actually knows what they are doing work the dog on a regular basis.

It is cute and all to use all the right terminology, and sound like something of worth is happening, but I don't think so. You have to move around pretty fast to make dogs like this take an interest. That just isn't happening here. The fact that she was busting out animal skins was CRACKING me up.


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## Jennifer Marshall

Jeff, I really don't care what you think about my situation  You assume that nobody but you knows what they are doing and that is fine. I agree that I need someone to work with, what you seem to have incredible difficulty understanding is that THERE IS NO ONE that has the kind of experience you speak of, near enough to me to make training as often as I would like a possibility. I live in Southwestern Oregon, out in the country. The only sport people around here are ScHH people that refuse to work with dogs training for ring. 

Terrasita - I don't keep these two together, they are played with seperately 99% of the time. Jager is not tied out anywhere watching me work Cuda, he is in the backyard while I work Cuda in the front, and when I work with Jager in the front Cuda is in the back. I am on 1.5 acres of my own fenced areas to use. 

I work each dog seperately on OB and bitework, they are out in the house at different times, I rotate where they are. I don't play ball with them both after the same ball in the same yard but maybe once every week or two. They have seperate pens/kennels/yards and their crates are in different rooms. They are let outside to potty together and have maybe an hour of play/interaction a day. Everything else is with *me.*

All the kills they have made together were while out on a potty break. Jager's other kills were alone while in his pen. I am trying to prevent this issue.

Jager is not "doggy," but I do let them be out together and play together because they do live in the same household and while later on I may not be able to let them have any second together without being watched I do expect them to coexist in the house peacefully while supervised.


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## Jennifer Marshall

P.S. Jeff yes I fully admit to not be able to move exactly like a rabbit or a squirrel. I would actually love to see a video of you with a tug or rag trying to be exactly as fast and erratic as a real wild scared shitless small animal. Then I would love to see video of someone moving themself as quickly and crazily as a wild hare/rabbit or squirrel with a dog chasing them.

Even the best decoys cannot outrun and outmaneuver a dog like a rabbit. Esquives are not the same - impressive, but not the same as running from and not being caught by a dog.


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## Gerry Grimwood

Jennifer Marshall said:


> Jeff, I really don't care what you think about my situation  You assume that nobody but you knows what they are doing and that is fine.


You have to realise that Jeff comes by this naturally, I found this archival footage of him as a young lad, he was bustin balls before color TV :lol:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwqWcn2gbTM


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## Don Turnipseed

I think Jennifer is doing fine. The dog is young and they mature slow.....except for the prey stuff. The dog isn't even totally co-ordinated yet. Seems to me Jennifer wanted to give it a shot and Jeff couldn't anyway. Jeff may have to step up to the plate and show how it is done one day anyway.....then we will see. LMAO What do you think Jeff?


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## Jennifer Marshall

Gerry - LOL

Don, thanks. I have never tried to say to anyone that I was an expert at anything, but I am not an idiot. I know I am not doing everything right or perfectly, but I am trying and I am always learning from my own mistakes and experiences as well as trying to learn from other people's mistakes and experiences. 

I am not infallible, I have been incapable of correcting certain behaviors in some dogs I've worked with and I have been slow and done something wrong and gotten bit for my trouble - but I learned from it. I will always be learning and I am doing my best. 

I don't think there will ever be a day that I do everything right and perfect. I will continue to train dogs for the rest of my life, until I am physically incapable of doing so any longer. No matter how many dogs I have throughout my life, I will make mistakes. I did with my first dogs and have with my current dogs and up to my 20th or 30th or however many dogs I raise in the next 70 years, I will make mistakes. So far I am proud to say I haven't made the same mistake twice. I only hope to continue to decrease the number, frequency, and severity of my mistakes but I am realistic and know that I will never not make any at all.

Whether Jager becomes a good sport dog or not he will have a good home and I will find something that he and I can do together competitively. If it turns out to be completely my fault that I did everything wrong and that is the sole reason he doesn't do sport, then so be it, I will admit to that and move on.


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## Connie Sutherland

Gerry Grimwood said:


> You have to realise that Jeff comes by this naturally, I found this archival footage of him as a young lad, he was bustin balls before color TV :lol:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwqWcn2gbTM



AH-HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Oh my goodness. That is great. 

Look at that little face in the last verse. :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Nicole Stark

Jennifer Marshall said:


> P.S. Jeff yes I fully admit to not be able to move exactly like a rabbit or a squirrel. I would actually love to see a video of you with a tug or rag trying to be exactly as fast and erratic as a real wild scared shitless small animal. Then I would love to see video of someone moving themself as quickly and crazily as a wild hare/rabbit or squirrel with a dog chasing them.
> 
> Even the best decoys cannot outrun and outmaneuver a dog like a rabbit. Esquives are not the same - impressive, but not the same as running from and not being caught by a dog.


That's the truth. The best I could ever come up with to duplicate that kind of movement was with a flirt pole, the Robit, a R/C car (very expensive and high performance), and the "dot". I did find out by accident much later that if I used very large objects I could illicit similar responses from her but again, none of this was ever practical for training in the manner I needed for it to be effective and consistently carry over. Don's point of a physical challenge I find to be quite relevant and I believe that was one of the reasons why the trailer worked well for this type of activity on my dog. Barrier work might prove to be quite effective as well for him. 

If you have the opportunity to get some video of him I'd be interested in seeing it.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Jennifer, PLEASE don't take any of this as criticism. I think we can all learn from your experiences with Jager if it doesn't divulge into name calling and/or ridiculing someone. Don, I think in a REAL context [live prey] there is prey/fight, but there is also defense. Its the chaneling the drives triggered by what's real/live prey to the artificial object, that I wonder about--with certain dogs. I try to stay out of decoy speak and I would think it would take one of those to answer the question of whether your suggestions of getting physical with the dog constitutes prey vs. defense training. May depend on the dog and the decoy's ability to work between the two drives. I think what Mr. Not Great w/ the Bedside Manner is saying is that instead of the owner/handler doing this type of work, it will take a decoy and a damn good one to make it work. That's fair. But as Jennifer says, there aren't too many around and you do the best you can. 

Again, looking forward to hearing more about him as he grows up.

Terrasita


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## Don Turnipseed

Here is where some of my suggestions may not work. I could take Jager and get him to eat a decoy in pretty short time once he matured. I would have the control of him and I could hiss him on someone. At that point, I would have no control. He would not have a clue about rules and proper ettiquete. Jager really needs no bite training as, without even seeing him I knoiw everything that goes in his mouth goes as far in as he can get it. If he needs a better bite, he will get it wth no training because that is what they do. He would be on a mission. 
This is the difference of my methods and a dog trained to achieve a certain result that isn't so serious and much more controllable if that makes sense. This is really what we need to see if it possible to do....keep the dog interested enough to put on a show without getting to serious and actually seeing the person as something other than real threat. It will be intersting. Jennifers last update and the problem just keeping Jager, at less than 6 mo old, focused on playing games after a small taste of the real thing says their may be a few bumps in the road as I see it.


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## Bob Scott

To add my own two cents here, having worked with hunting terriers and Schutzhund dogs, I can say the difference in their bit work is the Schutzhund dog is taught when NOT to bite as much as when to bite. Although all dogs can bit naturally the Schutzhund dog's bite is more developement and training. If the sport dog's bite isn't up to par it can (maybe shouldn't) be developed. 
With the hunting terrier, if the bite isn't up to par the work they do will eliminate it from the program.
More of a "natural" dog IMHO!


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## Jennifer Marshall

Bob, good information and I do appreciate your insight since you have way more experience with terriers in general than I ever will.

When Jager does bite he bites well (unless he is trying to rip rabbit fur out of a fleece tug LOL) he has a firm grip and he has always countered naturally, he has a huge mouth and uses all of it. My trouble was getting him to even be interested in a human-controlled prey item enough to bite it at all. After chasing, catching, and killing real critters he didn't want his tugs or rag anymore.

Before he started teething he was doing well, only issue then was he was still always interested more in real living things so anytime a bird flew by close to him or he could see a rabbit or a squirrel I would lose his focus. I got it back and he would continue to bite the rag or tug but as pups can be, he was easily distracted by the wildlife that I am surrounded by. I did/do work with him inside but I have a tiny house, no room to move.

Terrasita - I didn't take it as negative criticism, just felt I should elaborate on my living situation with the dogs. I agree that they shouldn't be allowed to pack up, and hunt (without me) and that I should be a more important and significant part of Jager's life than Cuda is, and visa versa.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Jennifer,

I wouldn't try to establish the artificial as prey when he can see, hear, smell the real thing. I would also keep him in the house and take him out for potty breaks without Cuda---just you and him. All of this until I had really built his desire for the toys as prey and you as the giver of all good things---ultimately the source of his prey satisfaction. I think unless you go extreme on this, you'll always be in competition with the natural world. If you want to work his drives with an artificial stimulus, I think you have to remove the natural stimulus for awhile and hopefully you can raise the artificial one to the same level.


Terrasita


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## Jennifer Marshall

Terrasita - that is an excellent suggestion, the problem is that it is impossible  I live in the country where wildlife and livestock are literally everywhere at all times of day and night. I can't control birds, rabbits, squirrels, deer, turkies, skunks, cattle, horses, sheep, fallow deer, goats, elk, etc etc I Have no where to work him where there is no sight of these things let alone the smell or sound.

I would work him indoors but I have no indoors to work in - the largest space I have available to work in is about 6' x 6' and believe me I've tried to very little/no success. The house I live in is tiny and I am not allowed to use the arena per my landlord thanks to nasty boarders of hers.

I will consider not having him and Cuda have contact with each other at all but the potty breaks they go out on are about 5-10 minutes of play with Jager on a long line. Jager is always more interested in me than Cuda. 

If I had an indoor arena to work him in, I would. I only have outdoor areas. Lots of outdoor areas (400+ acres) but these are full of wildlife.

I will keep everyone posted, so far so good with the leather rag, keeping sessions short and always ending with him wanting more. Some interest in his old tugs and stuff but right now the ball and the leather rag have the most interest.


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## Jennifer Marshall

Just an update on the monster. He is doing much better after some time and work. I got the kennels reinforced and put in more dig barriers so there have been no critters getting into the pens with the dogs while I'm gone and the rest of the rabbits and rats that nested in that area left. No more kills or close calls.

A few weeks ago I started noticing some changes in his behavior, all for the better. He is 7.5 months and his focus is better, his attention span is getting longer, and while he still has a ton of energy he is not nearly as scatterbrained. He is not as distracted by everything on the planet seen and unseen.

Regarding bitework specifically, he is off the leather/rags and back on tugs and a bite wedge/pillow. I have been building his confidence on the bite and working on his grip a little here and there but I mostly focused on regaining and maintaining his interest in the tugs and phasing out the rags/leather. Also, I have been working on his possessiveness of the items, but it didn't take much to encourage him to be possessive of anything.

I am going to start working more on the grip and always building confidence. And when I say working on his grip I don't mean the depth of his grip - he bites with a full mouth - I mean working on the hardness of his grip. It doesn't take much to hold onto a rag so moving up to the tugs and whatnot I admit to making it a little easier for him at first but have stepped up the game as he has maintained/increased interest in the tugs. Now he is learning to bite harder for a longer period of time. I am using some hard rubber balls of varying sizes on ropes as OB reward and to start working his jaw muscles more when not specifically doing "bite work." 

And in case anybody is curious... The balls I have are the 2.5" red Kong ball, 3" black planet kong goodie ball, 3.5" pup treads ball, and the big 4.5" tirebiter ball(rope removed), all with cotton lunge line as handles. I like these much better than the Orbee balls. I went through 2 Orbees in a month with Cuda just as an OB reward, chunks came off while tugging so I stopped using them. I wanted an alternative and found all of the above and love them.

Anyhow, I definitely look forward to more work as he matures. He is a big boy - Cuda is 25" and I measured Jager this morning at 27." Leggy AND Toothy. He will probably outweigh Cuda when he is all grown up. Funny that I will have a terrier that is bigger than my bulldog. I wish I could get video of him when he prances like a show pony, reminds me of a hackney the way he throws his front feet out. Almost like a spanish walk at times. Very animated when he is proud of himself. 

He works very very well for praise, which is something that I really like about him. It is very easy to communicate to him when he is doing something good just with my tone and attitude. Some dogs don't care, but I prefer to work dogs that have a close bond with me that are easy to motivate and easy to reward.

OB is going well, much smoother now that I don't have the sky and every blade of grass to compete with for his attention. All the recall work has been possitive and he has never had a correction or hit the end of the line. Even though I have never had a problem with it I still had a great success recalling him off a rabbit. We had a party after that LOL 

In a general sense he is more tuned into me now. Even when he is free he keeps an eye on me, he has started to check in/look back and stays closer of his own accord. If I move away he automatically follows, he is more interested in what I'm doing and is really nosey about it but it's a nice alternative to him not giving a shit.

My other plans for him are that I am thinking of training him for tracking wounded deer and elk for use during hunting season. It just seems a shame to me to NOT use his nose and I would really like to get him and Cuda on a hog some day but that is not likely to ever be legal where I live.

I'll keep updating as he grows up


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Great update!!! Sounds like he is really coming along. Looking forward to the next installment.


Terrasita


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## Don Turnipseed

Sounds good Jennifer. He is 27' already at 7 1/2 mo. He may be taller than BlackJack. It does take a while for them to focus but it soumds like he is getting there.


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## Jennifer Marshall

Yeah I couldn't believe it when I measured him. I did it two ways, stood him next to the yardstick, thought I read it wrong, then I marked the wall and measured where the mark was.. 27" both times. I don't know how much taller he will get but I believe he will outweigh Cuda when he is done.


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## Nicole Stark

It's been cool following his progress. I hope to see him in a video soon.


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## Jennifer Marshall

If I had a video cam and someone to take the video I'd have a crapload of vids. But alas, I am poor and when I save money to buy something for the dogs it is new tugs or training equipment that is more important. Some day.. I promise...


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## Michael Wise

Jennifer Marshall said:


> My other plans for him are that I am thinking of training him for tracking wounded deer and elk for use during hunting season. It just seems a shame to me to NOT use his nose


I'd really like to see how one of these BIG terriers does on this. Think I want one.\\/


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## Jennifer Marshall

Michael, I have always been intrigued by scent work and blood trailing would be helpful.

I figured this is something I can do in spare time to keep his brain occupied and it will also help us out during hunting season. Another thing I thought of is to train him for tracking the elk herd so I can map their specific territories and record their habits - handy information when hunting season rolls around. There is a bull my brother and I have been after for several years now. BIG 6 x 7 like this guy here:








But elk season is only a week long for Rifle hunters and the woods are saturated with hunters, the big ol boys move to higher ground that requires horses to get to. We will be hunting this year on a pair of nice paint geldings a friend of ours has. If I had Jager trained for this I know I'd get hit up for help from friends and other camps. Get paid in beer and meat lol fair trade to me.


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## Bob Scott

Jennifer said;
"He works very very well for praise, which is something that I really like about him. It is very easy to communicate to him when he is doing something good just with my tone and attitude. Some dogs don't care, but I prefer to work dogs that have a close bond with me that are easy to motivate and easy to reward."




"Convince a terrier it's having fun and the world is yours. Force a terrier to do something and it'll never get done." :wink:


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## Jennifer Marshall

Bob Scott said:


> "Convince a terrier it's having fun and the world is yours. Force a terrier to do something and it'll never get done." :wink:


I keep things happy and fun for my pups so thankfully I didn't have any adjustments to the terrier temperament in that way, but it has been fun learning the rest of the terrier quirks. I prefer dogs that are happy and have fun and work for praise, no matter the breed.


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## Jennifer Marshall

Update - things are progressing slowly right now. He has massive amounts of energy that is at times hard to keep up with. Recent clashes with my landlord and increased restrictions on the dogs has made effective exercise almost impossible but I do as much as I can after dark when nobody can see me and we are moving to a bigger place with more property soon.

He becomes bored very quickly in OB with things he already knows and I have to constantly switch things up, but I am running out of things to teach that can be done at night or inside. There have been a couple battles between us as there are times when no matter what I have that he wants, he will refuse to sit or down and corrections don't register. He is very hard to correction and it isn't so much that he ignores it as I really don't think it registers in his head that anything happened. The only thing I can do is put him in his crate for a while. The first time I really gave him a hard pop with the prong and saw that there was absolutely no reaction of any kind I decided to try the "if you won't do what is asked then you get to do nothing" thing. It works, sometimes.

I have tried increasing the value of the reward but it doesn't matter what the reward is or how much he wants it, I can dangle a piece of steak in front of his nose and he will be drooling and staring completely focused on the meat and then I ask him to sit and he will look me in the eye, wag his little tail, and do nothing. Correct him and no reaction other than continueing to stare and drool at the reward. Even his favorite toy, he will be jumping, barking, absolutely crazy for the toy and if asked to do anything he will just stand there and look at me. I try not to but I do get frustrated and one time did I try to enforce the command with several hard corrections and got nowhere. He doesn't shut down, he doesn't become aggressive or aggitated in any way, his eyes, tail, ears, and general body language don't change AND he doesn't comply so decided that was the last time that caliber of correction would be attempted. All it did was waste time and my energy. So in the crate he goes.

It is not every time, but it does happen once a day, seems if I have asked him to sit 3 times already today that 4 is just too much. Repitition is not an option in training, the first time I ask him to do something he is perfect - fast and precise, the 2nd time he is slower but compliant, 3rd time he may or may not obey. 

Force was never a goal in my training with him but it gets more difficult to convince him he's having fun after the first 10 minutes of OB, which can only be done once a day. Heeling he does quite well without many issues, though the auto-sit is a problem. And yes I do remain animated and happy and energetic, I don't shut down or become dull and uninteresting, he remains happy and interested in me and what I have and what he wants, he will bounce and jig and play bow and bark and be a happy dog, but will not obey after too much repition. I do try to avoid the issue and keep things very short and fast paced and don't do too much of one thing but it makes for slow progress and very little work for him.

His bitework is *so* much better, he is on the long tug learning leg bite basics and his only reward for anything is with a tug - no food. This dog has the longest muzzle and biggest teeth I've ever seen, and he uses it constantly. Always on the lookout for something to bite - when the tugs are up he will bring me a shoe and try to get me to tug with it. No boredom here but I have to be careful asking for things as he will refuse commands after so long - practicing the out and down/guard is very slow because after X amount of times he does not want to down. But the drive and desire to bite is good and he does not become tired of tugging or the act of biting, only repition in obedience.

Work in progress.


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## maggie fraser

Terriers !

You know, I get exactly what you mean by getting a non reactive respone to a hard correction, just doesn't seem to register in the brain, terriers (jrts) won't even take the hump with you...

I'm sure some advice will be along shortly. I love terriers


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## Jennifer Marshall

Heh yeah I'm trying every trick I know. He is a lot of fun to be around, but when he decides he isn't going to do something, he is still having fun, and I'm not LOL


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## maggie fraser

I've made more progress with my soon to be 13 yr old jrt on getting my new gsd pup almost four years ago.

If gsd pup can swim... so can he, if gsd pup can sit, stand, down, and ten min long down...so can he. If gsd pup can track and find article, and indicate... so can he... In half the time LOL

Terriers weren't meant for ob LOL jmo. :-D


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## Don Turnipseed

Just out of curiosity, how heavy is obedience in mondio? 

Until you get moved, I would just run him through what he knows once and move on. I think he is about 9 mo and what's important to him probably changes with each mo. As far as heavy correction....a hog hooking these dogs and tossing them 8' in the air just pisses them off so you will have to take that for what it is worth. LOL I would say don't push to the point of refusal because he will learn that quick. As he gets a bit older he should settle in more. When you get to your new place do the obedience first and the use the bitework as the reward if he gets off on it because the bitework can be made exciteing. I am just making suggestions on what I might try as a non trainer....if it sounds stupid ignore it. LOL


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## Jennifer Marshall

Don, a lot of control is required in Mondio, if you don't have OB you have no points.

Bitework is the only reward I use now, after my last ditch attempt to up the reward value with the tastiest peice of meat (my dinner steak) we had in the house I gave up. Food has never been the best thing to motivate him with, his focus has always been better for toys and the opportunity to bite something. After his first kill I was forced to use food for OB but don't anymore. The only thing I use that is not a tug is an oversized Kong tennis ball and it's sole purpose is to run him and attempt to tire him out, it is not used as a reward.

He does love to tug now, but even in the height of drive in a session if I've asked for a down X amount of times already, he will refuse. He always outs, however, and never challenges me in any other way. He is never aggressive towards me, on the contrary he is very affectionate, loves to play and interact with me, follows me everywhere, and unless I throw a ball he does not stray more than 20 feet from me in any direction at any time. Always comes when he is called, though he is on a long line at all times and has no real option but to come to me. 

He is more obedient in random every day occurences than when specifically working. When there is no excitement involved, no reward either, he obeys. There is no flash to it, he is neither fast nor slow about it, it is just a fact. Then again when in the house or out and about there is no repetition to it. I have tried just pretending to be out for a walk and try introducing OB but he catches on fast. As soon as it starts feeling like work he is likely to refuse, despite reward, excitement, drive, or fun.

He's young, has a lot of maturing to do.


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## tracey schneider

skipping through this....bless you jen and your patience, I would have washed this dog a long time ago but I bet u will learn a lot and learn some imagination...all good.;-)

Don, I have to ask, would you prefer she wash him of the sport and use him for his intended breeding purpose?

T


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## Jennifer Marshall

Tracey,

This is why I like to have more than one dog to work, if I hit a wall with one I can bring out the other and keep working. I can be a bit much for one dog, I like to train and have a tendency to do so too often or for too long.

I am not convinced the problems are not from me and my inexperience with terriers, I will keep working and training Jager in part because my pride won't let me quit and also because I want to make sure I have done everything I can. If I can get past this issue with repitition then we are golden and he has a lot to give.


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## Don Turnipseed

tracey delin said:


> skipping through this....bless you jen and your patience, I would have washed this dog a long time ago but I bet u will learn a lot and learn some imagination...all good.;-)
> 
> Don, I have to ask, would you prefer she wash him of the sport and use him for his intended breeding purpose?
> 
> T


Tracy, as has been said all along, airedales are not into repetition. They catch on extremely fast and repetion is boring. I think Jennifer will have more opportunity to keep things interesting when she moves and has more space she can work in. Airedales are also slow to mature which is a problem at 9 mo. I worked some puops once on heeling and long stays and within the first few minutes of a session, if they weren't paying attention, I put them backmin the yard and took another one out. After a few days, they caught on and worked with me better. At any rate, I wouldn't throw in the towel just yet . He does enjoy biting. It is a shamed they can't hunt with him because he would be a great one. Competition tracking would be another if there is such a thing. LOL I have had many dogs in the field and on 300lb hogs at Jagers age but they were still pups in every other respect. Recently hog guide called me to tell me his pup and one other dog bayed up a boar so he is keeping a tighter rein on the pup because he is only 5 mo old. I think if he has a close attraction to Jeniffer he will start working with her. Another story from last week. The dog, Cowboy that I posted pictures of in the hunting section and will be a year old tomorrow. Dan was throwing the bumper in the water and he retrieved it a few times and decided he would just swim around it and swam over to a mshore Dan couldn't get to. Well Dan was pissed and decided to call it a day and started throwing things into the truck. Next thing he knew, here came Cowboy. He had gone back out and got the bumper and brought it to him. Something about airedales....they just have to screw with you if you let them and when they do it is because they already know how to do what you want. It's largely a battle of wills. The toughest thing to do is to figure out a way to make them want to do it and have fun.


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## Bob Scott

I've had a Nationally ranked terrier (KBT) in AKC obedience.......but I've had a few that I knew better then to bother trying. At least not with any enthusiasm for the repitition.
All my terriers, even the show line, were fantastic truck dogs. Came when they called. Never needed a leash. Always did as I asked, when I asked but formal obedience.......... not so much. :lol:

My Border terrier male's sire had damn near every title possible but was a clown in the ring. 
Watched him do the aritcle search once and he found the correct article immediately......then proceded to roll it all the way back to the handler with his nose. Even stopped a time or two to suck in all the applause from the crowd. 
My kids taught my best competition Kerry Blue to sit up and beg. Never gave it much thought till he came in on a recall and.....you guessed it. He stopped in front of me and sat up instead of a sit front. 
I couldn't convince the judge that he was, after all, sitting in front of me. didn't work. Lost a couple of points on that one.
That was very cute.........to everyone but me. ](*,)
Same dog in a big local fun match (no attempt at a title) outside. It was very hot and no shade in the ring. I left him on the out of sight long down. When I came back he was on the other side of the ring......curled up in the bit of shade the large judge provided. ](*,)
I will say he never flunked me from CD to UD but he could sure make it interesting.


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## Nicole Stark

Jennifer, if i didn't know better I'd think you were writing about my dog again . It seems to me that you are already figuring out the deal with him and how he works. Repetitive OB with certain dogs just ain't gonna work but something new a few times a week/month most certainly does seem to. Roll with it, that's your best tool as far as I am concerned. 

My guess is there's a whole lot you can do with him, including pieces and parts of what you originally set out to do with him. I'm in that same boat and have gone from finding it frustrating to down right cool. Granted, I really can't hope to ever take this dog out on a field and "perform" with her but in real life and just as you said with yours everything she needs to do she does. I'm also guessing in the long run he might become a far more versatile dog than you imagined. Dogs like that certainly have the capacity of teaching us how to work in the moment.


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## Jennifer Marshall

Thanks Don. The only problem we will have is if he continues to rebel against repitition in training and I am not successful in convincing him he's having fun. Repition is part of the game, he can know everything in the world but if he does not demonstrate that he knows, I'm screwed!

What is irritating is he maintains his focus on me and the reward, he maintains happy happy attitude with that silly fuzzy tail wagging, ears forward, sometimes even his head tilted at me. So cute, and so irritating LOL 

Ahh. Puppies.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Dan was throwing the bumper in the water and he retrieved it a few times and decided he would just swim around it and swam over to a mshore Dan couldn't get to. Well Dan was pissed and decided to call it a day and started throwing things into the truck. Next thing he knew, here came Cowboy. He had gone back out and got the bumper and brought it to him. Something about airedales....they just have to screw with you if you let them and when they do it is because they already know how to do what you want. It's largely a battle of wills. The toughest thing to do is to figure out a way to make them want to do it and have fun.

I think Cowboy and Buko have a lot in common.


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## Don Turnipseed

Just as a point of interst, Dan's dog, Cowboy, is doing really great in obedience but Dan is a hard core Koehler trainer. He actually bought the dog for competition obedience. He had the same problems with repetition but the Koeler method method doesn't leave room for them to decide when they will and when they won't. Cowboy is in the open phase of Koehler right now. When he gets some obedience titles I have already talked to a guy that has dogs from the same lines that the dale that placed 7th in the world competition and there is a good chance he will be bred to those lines. We are working on it anyway. Part owner of the dog is Ed in St Louis who has a Sch III dale. The German dale is in Ct or Mass and Cowboy is in Md so it is easily doable.


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## Jennifer Marshall

Bob, I do like the fire he has and his personality is great. He is a very fun dog that keeps me entertained all the time. He sleeps upside down in his crate with his front legs stretched above his head and hooks his nails on the door to keep them there, hind legs straight up with feet touching the top of the crate. It's hilarious. And he loves to retrieve, gotta give him that.

Nicole, usually repetitive OB is a problem when you ask for the same thing several times in a row without anything in between. I can ask him to down 3 times in in 10 minutes with all sorts of stuff mixed in - send out, retrieve, sit-stay, some tricks, etc. and he just stands there and looks at me like "Didn't we just do this 3 minutes and 27 seconds ago?!" 

It limits what I can do, for example with the sit: heeling has the auto-sit, the dog must sit for the front, coming to heel without heeling is sitting against my leg... I have to pick one thing that has a sit involved for that training session. I have to space out the OB and at most I get maybe 3 good solid 10 minute sessions in an 8 hour period. 

With bitework I try not to bring in too much control because I don't want to start a war and he is still young. The issue is without adding control I can't really make any progress, he has done well and his targeting is nice, his grip is full and hard - he doesn't need more building, he needs refinement which requires control and OB. I can't teach him any actual exercises without control.

Hopefully we can climb over this hill. If I can convince him that doing what I ask, even though it is reptitive, leads to even more fun, then everything with be great. He needs to mature and hopefully will develop more of a work ethic. The one thing that gets me is even though he is refusing to do what I am asking, it is not really an outright stomp of the foot, go to hell type of thing.... it's more like he is politely declining to partake in the current acitvities and would I please pass him the tug...


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## Bob Scott

Don, Ed's dog has had some hard core Koehler type training but being a terrier he's still happy as a lark on the Sch field. 
Some just don't know their being punished and some you'll crush. Very little in between.


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## Jennifer Marshall

Bob Scott said:


> Don, Ed's dog has had some hard core Koehler type training but being a terrier he's still happy as a lark on the Sch field.
> Some just don't know their being punished and some you'll crush. Very little in between.


Jager certainly doesn't recognize punishment. I have an image in my head of him walking through the electric horse fence without batting an eye. The one time I really wailed on him I did not prove to be effective. I rarely use harsh corrections with a prong but I admit to having lost my temper, the first pop I gave him was harsh. I am not afraid to give corrections and am not a small person, this had a bit of force behind it. And he just continued to wag his tail and stare at me... after the 3rd, 4th, 5th pop increasing the level of correction without the slightest reaction I just put him in his crate and went to cool off.


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## Don Turnipseed

Ed has been trying to get me to breed one of my bitches but the males have so much do or die in them I really think if the cross is done it should be with Cowboy. He has that confidence we talk about so often and although fun loving he won't take any crap. The German dogs don't have much size to them generally so Cowboy will be a plus since he is about 80 lbs at 12 mo.. Of course I will get one of the pups. LOL It will work out all the way around because I haven't found any American bred dales that aren't pretty much scatterbred. This would be perfect for all concerned I think. The only thing that worries me is the German dogs are a bit sharper which I don't care for. My dogs are heavy duty as it is and I don't need to have them sharp on top of it.


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## Bob Scott

Jennifer Marshall said:


> Jager certainly doesn't recognize punishment. I have an image in my head of him walking through the electric horse fence without batting an eye. The one time I really wailed on him I did not prove to be effective. I rarely use harsh corrections with a prong but I admit to having lost my temper, the first pop I gave him was harsh. I am not afraid to give corrections and am not a small person, this had a bit of force behind it. And he just continued to wag his tail and stare at me... after the 3rd, 4th, 5th pop increasing the level of correction without the slightest reaction I just put him in his crate and went to cool off.



My wife got so pissed at a Bull Terrier because he wouldn't back up and get his head out of the fridge. She thumped his head with the fridge door. Thumped it a bit harder.....then damn near took his head off with the door and all he did was wag his tail harder.
That's the one terrier breed that I've been told to NEVER bring another one home. :lol: :lol:.....and I never did! :lol: :lol:


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## Don Turnipseed

Jennifer Marshall said:


> Jager certainly doesn't recognize punishment. I have an image in my head of him walking through the electric horse fence without batting an eye. The one time I really wailed on him I did not prove to be effective. I rarely use harsh corrections with a prong but I admit to having lost my temper, the first pop I gave him was harsh. I am not afraid to give corrections and am not a small person, this had a bit of force behind it. And he just continued to wag his tail and stare at me... after the 3rd, 4th, 5th pop increasing the level of correction without the slightest reaction I just put him in his crate and went to cool off.


Jeniffer, that is why they are so good with dangerous game....they can take a lickin and they keep on ticking. Beside, he will teach you to be cool.LOL


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## Ben Thompson

Going back to the original post what kind of bitework will the dog be used for sport or personal protection? Just wondering.


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## Don Turnipseed

Ben, Jeniffer is training him for mondio.


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## tracey schneider

Jen you bring up another good point, (that was also brought up in the other thread)...sometimes the issues lie within the handler (wink at don lol), that and everyone has their own idea of what is a soso dog, a good dog, etc. And what they are willing to work with. Keep at it, post some videos maybe others can help with more experience in the terriers. Ill be very curious to see where this goes. Maybe at this time the best thing to do is put him up. No play no food unless he gives you and inch of repetition..ill put money is you take away his food and he is hungry he will work!!.take it slow if he is that slow to mature don't bore him...puppies (mental puppies) can get overwhelmed and bored quickly...baby steps...sounds like a form of avoidance and or lack of repect. Actually sounds a lot like the guy who just posted about his dog, I think it was also a terrier (and now wants a bouv). Jmo

Also don yes there is competition tracking although mondio does not have tracking.

T




Jennifer Marshall said:


> Tracey,
> 
> This is why I like to have more than one dog to work, if I hit a wall with one I can bring out the other and keep working. I can be a bit much for one dog, I like to train and have a tendency to do so too often or for too long.
> 
> I am not convinced the problems are not from me and my inexperience with terriers, I will keep working and training Jager in part because my pride won't let me quit and also because I want to make sure I have done everything I can. If I can get past this issue with repitition then we are golden and he has a lot to give.


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## Don Turnipseed

It is going to be interesting to see how it turns out. I know the dogs have about every obedience title there is up through the utility titles and one of my dogs was the high pointing terrier inn the 94 Great WesternTerrier show.... I don't know what methods they employed but they weren't pups. Cowboy has been taught early using the Koeler method as I mentioned but that is done on a line and the dog has no choice but to comply but the dog usually makes up his own mind it is easier to do it than not do it. Of course Dan took a good bite to the leg the other day from a Bedlington terrier putting it in a sit but he got that dog to work with because it was a biter. I have the Koehler books and have gone through them as Dan has worked with Cowboy and for terriers it looks like the way to go. Dan even got obedience titles on an English Pointer using this method. Seems all the old methods have fallen out of favor today because many dogs can't handle it....but they worked well on the dogs of the day that could. 

I think Tracy is right as far as the respect. I don't think it is avoidance at all like the dog in the other thread. He doesn't feel has to avoid Jennifer because he knows he just doesn't have to do it and has gotten by with it. BlackJack has a habit of running all over the front of the property rather than get in the truck when I let him out. I make sure I have a red bandana in my pocket when we are leaving because when he starts screwing with me I take that bandana out and take a step towards hin and he is in the truck right now because he respects that bandana. I got one just like it attached to a Daisy Red Ryder. It is an old spring loaded one like we used to pop each other with as kids playing cowboys and indians. Doesn't hurt them but they don't know how I can reach them from the deck when they are barking. They think the bandana hanging down has magical powers. LOL


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## tracey schneider

They sound similar to bulldogs in that many will label them... stubborn. I've even used the term although I'm not a fan of it as I think its the handler either not having respect or a form of avoidance as opposed to the dog being "stubborn". This is tricky turf because imo most are trained to be stubborn by inconsistent training, (ex dogs that live in the house and get away with casual commands etc) some dogs are more forgiving in this and some are not forgiving at all. I know with our dogs we have to have a thumb down at all times...if I said it you do it period. Give an inch they will take a mile...opportunists. With that said too much push may just return the same and the "stubborness" can be a form of avoidance and not gain you any progression and then there are the dogs that find stimulation in the corrections it would be the wrong way to go imo unless you just haven't reached the right level (electric). I have also seen some that just didn't have accessible drives and therefore lacked long focus and were more than I cared to deal with. 

T


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## Don Turnipseed

I have been giving this a lot of thought Tracey and I did basic obedience with several pups at one time. Thinking back on it, I did take them back to the yard and put them up at the first sign of blowing me off. No reprimands ar anything. I then took another one out and the one I just put back sat at the gate and had a fit. After a few days, they decided on their own that working with me wasn't so bad. The thing is physical correction never got me anywhere as the dogs can take it and still look you in the eye like Jager does. Quietly putting him up at the first non compliant sit, without a word, may be the way to go for say a week. Work him first so he can sit and watch Cuda having fun and doing what he is told. The idea is, instead of fighting him, getting him to decide he will do it on his own. Jeniffer is on the right track but it has to be at the first sign he is going to blow her off and with not even a word. Totally lacking any feeling. That may get to him more than anything else because they are sensative to your moods. If he knoiws he is getting your goat he will be having fun.


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## tracey schneider

Maybe enough and if that doesn't work, going back to my original post...take the food andthe play away unless he works and works well. But most importantly be very black and white. 

T


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## Nicole Stark

Don, I had one dog who responded well to your example - very well as a matter of fact. And another who responded to the food angle. Unfortunately, neither could be ever be counted upon to be reliable with repetitive OB. Despite that it's been my experience that the times when I need these dogs most to respond favorably (mid dash after another dog, down the driveway after a moose, and through the brush after a bear who had just been shot, etc) was when I was able to see the benefit of my work with these dogs. Many people do not want to work with dogs like this, others chalk it up to a lack of respect or skill. Who knows. But I can tell you this, these dogs, the ones I couldn't easily mold into some clay town at a whim ended up being some of the best dogs I've ever owned.


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## Don Turnipseed

Nicole, it may well be the case with Jager also. Actually it is an experament anyway and the updates Jennifer is giving help point out to others some of the things encountered with some of the breeds....and possibly how to overcome them. I don't think you can correct this dog into doing what she wants but is going to have to set it up to where he wants to do it. It also helps me to see what might benefit me in my breeding. These digs may indeed be more trouble that they are worth but, if she can figure out how to make him want to do, that is the key.

As far as what I am seeing right now on the breeding end of it, a dog that is more willing to be controlled may be the answer....but they wouldn't be the same dogs with dangerous game. I like the way they are in the respect that they give no quarter. There were other dogs in the litter that were more compliant, but, Jager was the one that enjoyed beating the crap out of the toys and tugging the most. I figured it would be the easier road to take the dog that enjoyed biting....maybe not....but the others may not want to bite on command so. 

At any rate, it will be what it will be but I do think she should just hold off until she gets moved. It will help to let him grow into himself a bit anyway.


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## Nicole Stark

Don, my situation was exactly the same. I wasn't going to stay with the DDB but the dog was gifted to me and part of that was to see what I could or would do with her. About 7 years earlier I ended up with another freebee of the same breed (adult) who was compliant and biddable providing I didn't spend too much time with him or mess with him unnecessarily so I think there's some merit to what you're thinking for this pup as well. By that mean I had to watch him carefully and seize the opportunity when it seemed like he was initiating certain behaviors (as in driving the exercise and subsequent reward through me). But yes, absolutely it worked best when it seemed like it was his "idea" for a lack of a better way to describe it.

I personally tend to like a slightly more difficult and willful dog to work with. I like the challenge of it and given that I am not competitive I don't feel there's any loss in seeing where things go. For me the challenge isn't in raising up your hands and saying its time to go when things don't work out but it's more so in what you do with the dog when they don't. Besides, this type of dog tends to function best in the environment I expose them to.

Given the breed I'm thinking the beating up tugs might have been an initial sign that his real interest might be best directed upon the real thing  One way or another it'll all work itself out in the end.


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## tracey schneider

I don't think you necessarily need to breed for a dog that is more willing to be controlled .... there are plenty of of hard to control dogs being worked successfully ... I have one now who wants it on his terms.... Where I am able to succeed with him is that his drives are VERY easily accessed and therefore manipulated. That is what I would adjust if you did in fact want to change something.
Just in reading how he lost interest after playing w some animals sounds like that is not the case. 
Jmo,
T


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## Terrasita Cuffie

I think its waaaayyyyy too early to characterize Jager one way or the other. Somewhere on page 17 Don had a good idea--one and done. I work stock dogs and before about 22-28 months they mentally change ALOT. They roll in and out of phases. The more mature the dog, the more partnership you have. This is why my ideal age for competition is 3-5 with 5 being mecca. All I care about before age 3 is laying the foundation. One thing I've worked with in terms of refusal is that I physically reset the dog and then ask what I want, get it and end the session. Try moving the dog a couple of feet off the set point and then giving the command over. I wouldn't worry about repetition now. Tie everything he loves to some sort of obedience routine. Change the routine constantly so that he doesn't anticipate. For instance with my bouv when she was young, I did some sort of obedience something before she could have her food. By Friday, she would rapidly perform ALL of them. I would laugh and add a different command. Her response was to bark at me as if to say damnit, no fair changing the rules. A lot of different breeds/dogs hate repetition. These dogs are bred to be able to handle their business independently. I would love for Don to describe a hunt and specifically which aspects he commands and which are within the dog's independent descretion.

Terrasita


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## Don Turnipseed

I always enjoy your posts Terrasita. That being said, I pick my dogs at 4 to 6 weeks. Jager would have been my #1 pick because he was the independent one and that is what I like because I need dogs that can think on their own and adjust accordingly because there is no handler control on a hunt. The dogs are broke off livestock when they are pup. I expect them to come in when thenhunt is over without having to be leashed and I expect them to load up when told. When I get to where they have the game bayed, I never open my mouth because me distracting them will get them killed. The dogs are bred to have and use their natural instincts. Being as they work on natural instinct, I don't expect them to perform like a seasoned dog out the gate but I do expect to see them giving it their best shot at 9 to 10 mo. From there on, it is exposure and time to learn the finer points which they have to do on their own with the help of the seasoned dogs. I am guessing it isn't to much different that a good stock dog.


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## Jennifer Marshall

UGH. I just had the entire reply typed up and CRASH. Lost it. Lets see if I can remember everything I had said...

I have tried several ways of solving the issue, as I said before I tried collar corrections (with a prong and choker) to no avail. I tried to have him do something else and come back to the refused command, usually focused heeling with lots of left turns, about turns, backing up, sideways, etc.. the idea being to "make him work" and perhaps he would realize that sitting or downing or whatever was the better option. Yeah, this failed because he really likes heeling and then lead to refusal of an auto-sit.

I tried just moving, backwards and sideways, having him follow me and against my own rules repeated the command. Another refusal. I do not like to repeat commands, ever. I say it one time, there is no option, I don't leave a door open to have the dog think it gets to choose which time to obey. Repeating the command just lead to another refusal.

I *could* be very extreme with this dog but I choose not to be, I don't think it would really benefit anything with our training and definitely not with our relationship. I could be downright cruel in order to enforce "the law" as I see it but I don't want to and I don't think this would produce the results I really want. Yes I could force him to obey, but how many times before I provoke an unwanted response and turn this into a real full physical war?

He definitely forces me to think. He definitely shows me that I don't know much about terriers LOL.

I do view his refusal as him testing the waters, but he is such a different dog than what I have become used to as far as strong young males go. I am used to young males that start testing the waters in a much more general way, not just in OB. I am used to being able to nip it in the bud quickly with a few well timed corrections, stronger handling, NILIF, no option type thing without being confrontational or aggressive towards the dog. Jager acts no different except in OB. Still greets me like a puppy with his ears back, head down and wiggling his whole body, follows me everywhere, lays at my feet, brings me everything I throw or that he finds. There is no possessive behavior, no posturing, no aloofness, no change but refusals in OB.

Don and I talked I agree that sticking with my current program of "if you don't want to do what I tell you to do, then you get to do nothing." And avoiding the refusals in the first place. I am not going to work him until I am able to move and can introduce Cuda into the picture, having a crate outside where he can see me working Cuda.

As far as regular handling when not "working" I am not much different. NILIF is the way in my house, I am not more lax in the house than when we are working because I don't want to start bad habits in myself or the dogs. They are not always in OB mode and allowed to just be dogs and have their free time but when I say X they must do X and often they are in a down-stay somewhere in the house on one of their many beds. Both Cuda and Jager are up to 30 minute down-stays under some form of distraction with me going in and out of sight doing housework or cooking. They do this once or twice a day. 

They get chewies and are allowed to just follow me around and walk around and do whatever though they often choose to lay at my feet. On potty breaks they are "free" in the fenced yard and I throw a ball to exercise them, no commands just running. When we are in the woods they are on lines but get to sniff and pee and dig all they want. 

They are not out together, though. They are pretty much completely seperate now unless in the woods or once in a while in down-stays in opposite rooms in the house.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

I'm curious. Have you introduced corrections in other aspects of the obedience? Me myself, I'd figure out working him for his toy or something he loves---no corrections. If that didn't work and I was positively sure he KNEW the behavior, then Game over. Puppies are weird. They may know a behavior in one geographic place. Change the geographics and they look at you with a blank look. I have seen it change depending on what room I was in in the house or the house vs. outside. This was on a completely marker trained dog. I first trained behaviors in a certain room. Got it in others. Then different parts of my yard. Finally, the Sch training field and other places around town. Before he ate if auto sit was a problem, then it would be auto sit for food. I like NILIF but have fun with it and forget about conquering this dog. Think in terms of being the source of what he values. At 9 months if he isn't getting the auto sit, I might leave it alone and come back to it. Build some of the other behaviors for awhile. Worse thing you can do is turn it into a federal case and bring conflict into it. 

Terrasita


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## Jennifer Marshall

Terrasita,

We work in the same area we have since day one, nothing has changed in that way. He is not ready for new places, yet. I don't introduce different environments until the dog is pretty solid and when I do I don't expect perfection, I use lots of reward to remain more interesting than everything else.

NILIF is my way of life with dogs, but I do not demand things of them 24/7, they have their time to just be dogs and do whatever they want, they have time away from me in their yards while I am at work or when they are in their crate with hoof or frozen kong. But I do NOT allow dogs to just roam around my house, and never will. 

I am affectionate and kind to my dogs, they just don't get treats or food or chewies for free and if I am doing something and don't want a dog under my feet they can be in their crate or on their bed until I am done. I am consistent and fair, but I am not soft and lax. My energy is generall calm in the house unless working on something with the dogs - I am the most energetic and happy and fun when working them because I want work to be fun for us both.

These things he is refusing are things he absolutely knows. He'd have to be dumbest dog on the planet not to understand these things - the refusals are for the simplest things that I started teaching him when I got him at 12 weeks. He is absolutely not stupid, quite the opposite he is a very intelligent dog that learns quickly and enjoys learning new things. He figures things out for himself and has to be watched to make sure he doesn't open the fridge or freezer, the dog food bin with the locking lid, the gate latches, etc.

Physical corrections were introduced for various behaviors - being on a line and attempting to chase the cat resulted in a self-correction (hit the end of the leash) while I gave a verbal correction. Verbal correction of "No" was introduced during learning when he was given multiple tries and we worked on polishing things up, like correct possition at heel and front, etc, I would say "No" and take a step sideways or back and give him another chance, I use verbal marker("yes") and clickers.

I had not corrected him in OB prior to the refusals because he did not need it, I don't correct a dog unless it refuses a known command. I always use motivation and have been using only his favorite tug items as reward for almost 3 months, since I got his interest back in tugs and tugging. I always use reward when doing OB.


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## maggie fraser

_We work in the same area we have since day one, nothing has changed in that way. He is not ready for new places, yet. I don't introduce different environments until the dog is pretty solid and when I do I don't expect perfection, I use lots of reward to remain more interesting than everything else._

Jennifer, what do you mean by he is not ready for new places ? Also, why don't you introduce different environments until the dog is pretty solid ?

I'm just curious, and this may be a bit off but, it quite sounds like the dog must be bored out of his brains. Where is his stimulation...in you forcing him to sit ? 

If it's any consolation and it probably isn't, I've experienced this brick wall a few times with my jrts where I have been absolutely sure they have known well the command, and it's as though they really really didn't get it. But, progressing it in another environment when his senses were all switched on did the trick, in drive in short, I wondered if it has something to do with comprehension.

I'm sure Bob will have some good input for you here.


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## Jennifer Marshall

Maggie, he is not ready for new places because he is not solid - he is refusing commands when he is at home with no distractions he isn't used to... I am not going to increase the level of distraction when he is already not performing.

I don't force him to sit - did you read the posts?

He is in drive when asked to perform, I always use reward. I have tried both having him calm and focused on me before asking and also getting him to max drive for the reward before asking and every level in between. It doesn't matter.


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## Lynn Cheffins

He is about 9 mos old right now? Could be that he is starting to think about what boys thinks about. At about 9 mos some of mine probably can't remember their name at times let alone whatever obedience they might know. :lol: It's just a thought...

Only thing I can add is that I would sneak in the odd obedience command in the really fun roughhouse sessions.


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## Jennifer Marshall

Lynn,

Yes he started to really realize he had testicles about 2 months ago, lol. I know he is not just forgetting or too distracted and not paying attention because he never refuses the first time I ask him in any one session. I don't work him if he is distracted, if he is deciding he is more interested in the world or smells and no amount of being a happy bouncy high energy idiot with a tug gets him interested, then he goes up. I've done that since day one.

I don't rough house with my dogs, for the two I have it wouldn't be a good idea. I am not concerned with real aggression but even in play things can get out of hand, clothes can get ripped, etc. My boys are big dogs that like to body slam. These two like using their mouths, you start rough housing the first thing they will do is start using their teeth and after doing a lot of work to ensure a hard grip, accidents will happen. Biting is for tugs and balls and legsleeves and suits, not for my flesh or clothes. I don't want to start bad habits in myself or the dogs. I get hurt enough on my own, I don't need them to help me LOL

I do fun sessions with the dogs where we are just working with the tugs or the ball on string, but it does not matter when I ask it, how much drive he is in for the reward and how well he has just done something, he will refuse. Sometimes it is the second time I ask for something, sometimes it is the 5th, it doesn't matter if there was lots of stuff in between or if it has been 10 minutes of just tug and play in between commands.


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## Don Turnipseed

Jennifer, these dogs work well as a team. When you ask him to do something, he might think it is pretty cool if you do it with him.


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## Jennifer Marshall

That would definitely be something I would arrange video for Don, I think I could go through a full OB routine without any glitches. Though I'd have to make sure the retrieve item fit in my mouth, lol.


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## kristin tresidder

after having worked terriers for 9 years now, what you're going through sounds oh-so-familiar. it's the very terrier mindset that defines what they are that makes them (as a group) poor obedience dogs, IMO. of course, there are exceptions to that rule - and some outstanding terrier obedience dogs at the top levels of competition. i think, at the end of the day, you get terriers because you like them - not because they will bring professional obedience sponsors knocking at your doorstep. i have plead and wheedled. i have tugged & balled & treated. i have koehlered and i have fought some knock down drag outs, and i have had some that learn/think like furry dogs (yay for me as i get old) but - i have been damn proud of every title i've put on one of my thick-headed, thick-skinned, dog aggressive, fearless, clownish, nah-i-think-i-will-do-it-my-way-this-time terriers. LOL!

best of luck, and enjoy the trip


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## David Ruby

kristin tresidder said:


> after having worked terriers for 9 years now, what you're going through sounds oh-so-familiar. it's the very terrier mindset that defines what they are that makes them (as a group) poor obedience dogs, IMO. of course, there are exceptions to that rule - and some outstanding terrier obedience dogs at the top levels of competition. i think, at the end of the day, you get terriers because you like them - not because they will bring professional obedience sponsors knocking at your doorstep. i have plead and wheedled. i have tugged & balled & treated. i have koehlered and i have fought some knock down drag outs, and i have had some that learn/think like furry dogs (yay for me as i get old) but - i have been damn proud of every title i've put on one of my thick-headed, thick-skinned, dog aggressive, fearless, clownish, nah-i-think-i-will-do-it-my-way-this-time terriers. LOL!
> 
> best of luck, and enjoy the trip


Out of curiosity, what would be the ceiling in something like Mondio (which, I believe, is what Jager's intended job will be) or similar venue? Also, what would be the main limiting factor for them in that sort of sport/venue, the Terrier mindset? I'm also curious if getting them to view it as a team-activity would effect how they work, but that's just thinking aloud.

I hope you keep the updates going (meant for Jennifer, even though I'm responding to Kristin's quote). It sounds like an interesting team of Jennifer & Jager. I am keen to hear how he does in the protection/sporting world, mainly because the Terriers are an intriguing subset of dog to me. Continued best of luck with him regardless!

-Cheers


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