# Surprised that cops will use cheap k9's



## Matt Grosch

I have seen dogs that I wouldnt take for free, that the breeder/trainer/owner considers a crapper, get sold to police depts, is this a combination of being cheap and dumb?


The dept's around me, and one I work for, have the best dogs around, the #5 and #8 dogs from the KNPV championship last month are here (via adlerhorst), another nearby dept guys to holland and gets dogs directly, the major city here spends a bit less and goes to vohn liche (but seems to have good dogs too, dont know if the only difference is non-titled = less money?)

But why would these cops in the towns in the south, etc, spend less and get a dog of lesser quality?

$10k isnt that much if you are going to be a k9 cop, even $3-$5k if you make up the difference out of your own pocket.....dont know why they wouldnt do this


But then again, if there was a dept that couldnt afford glocks and gave out hi-points, im sure some of the cops would be fine with them and not be interested in buying their own.


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## Jerry Lyda

How far South?


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## todd pavlus

NY state police get most there dogs from rescues:-k. So they can be trained at their new multi million dollar facility. Figure that one out


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## Ben Colbert

Because most (not all) K-9 officers are cops, not dog handlers. These guy might not even know what a good dog looks like and thinks that dogs like his (similar to the other department's dogs) are normal police quality.

Just my theory.


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## David Frost

Most of my single purpose detectors are from rescues, pounds or "rehomed" dogs. My dual purpose are purchased. While it is a holy grail of mine to find a dual purpose in a rescue, it hasn't happened. That said, I've seen a lot of 7 and 8 thousand dollar dogs that were piece of crap as well. It's not the price it's the selection. Paying more money doesn't guarentee a thing. It's all in the selection. I realize we are at the mercy of the vendor relative price, we have to buy from the available pot. I also realize I'm going to have to pay the going price. That doesn't mean I have to take crap, regardless of the price. 

DFrost


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## David Frost

Ben Colbert said:


> Because most (not all) K-9 officers are cops, not dog handlers. These guy might not even know what a good dog looks like and thinks that dogs like his (similar to the other department's dogs) are normal police quality.
> 
> Just my theory.


Which is why I advise any department that contacts me for assistance in obtaining dogs, training, certification etc, to treat vendors as you would used car salesmen. 

DFrost


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## Matt Grosch

right, and that I guess is the most surprising thing, that they dont care enough to do their research



but the guys I know that are k9's I guess they lucked out if they get selected to be part of a program that has good experienced guys, and they only use knpv dogs from adlerhorst, I guess I could imagine some dept where they are all clueless so a new k9 ofc wouldnt get any help, but it isnt that hard, go watch a pd k9 trial somewhere and see which ones are great and which are crap


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## will fernandez

Average starting salary for most cops in GA is 30,000. 3000-5000 dollars is big chunk of change for them to swallow.


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## Matt Grosch

David Frost said:


> Most of my single purpose detectors are from rescues, pounds or "rehomed" dogs. My dual purpose are purchased. While it is a holy grail of mine to find a dual purpose in a rescue, it hasn't happened. That said, I've seen a lot of 7 and 8 thousand dollar dogs that were piece of crap as well. It's not the price it's the selection. Paying more money doesn't guarentee a thing. It's all in the selection. I realize we are at the mercy of the vendor relative price, we have to buy from the available pot. I also realize I'm going to have to pay the going price. That doesn't mean I have to take crap, regardless of the price.
> 
> DFrost





price has got to have something to do with it, spending $10k wont guarantee you a great dog, but most great dogs are going to be $10k


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## Matt Grosch

will fernandez said:


> Average starting salary for most cops in GA is 30,000. 3000-5000 dollars is big chunk of change for them to swallow.





but how likely is it that a cop that is brand new is going to be selected as a k9 ofc?


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## Jerry Lyda

Ben I think you are right on with your theory. Yet very good handlers and trainers that were never a PSD handler or MWD handler (Trainers) are overlooked for deployment. Go figure.


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## David Frost

I haven't bought a new dog in a year. I paid 6,000 for the last two I purchased. I'm told they are now 7,500, but don't know. The only thing price has to do with anything is what they charge. The vendors, with few exceptions are still getting their dogs from the same people. Those people are realizing more and more how many are needed and people are willing to pay. The quality of dog available, at the prices PD's are going to pay isn't significantly better or worse, just more expensive. 

Granted, some departments don't know how to select. Some trainers don't know how to train a dog that hasn't already recieved a great deal of training. The price, like everything else is controlled by supply and demand, not the quality of the dog that is available. Yes, i understand the exchange rate, transportation costs etc have some effect, but it's still supply and demand that controls the cost of a dog. Before 9/11 a good dog could be purchased for 2,500 dollars. The demand has skyrocketed since. 


DFrost


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## David Frost

Matt Grosch said:


> but how likely is it that a cop that is brand new is going to be selected as a k9 ofc?


In our deparment you have to be 2 years out of FTO and probation before you are eligible for any special assignment. The average Trooper has about 4.5 years before he becomes canine. 

We don't permit privately owned dogs. I have had 3 handlers buy a dog, have it evaluated and accepted by me (I do have the final say) and donate the dog to the department, before entering training. In one case, the Trooper bought the dog ($5,000) was relieved from canine 2 years later. The dog remained as a working dog because he donated the dog (required) and it still had considerable service life left. 

DFrost


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## will fernandez

Most of the smaller depts in my area that love the freebie dog also have handlers that have less than 2 yrs experience. 

The problem is larger than you would expect and if the economic trend continues it will only get larger.


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## Martine Loots

I'd say don't buy the dogs from the dog brokers but deal with people who just give you correct information because they don't have (money) profit from it 
You'll have good and correct priced dogs.


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## David Frost

Martine Loots said:


> I'd say don't buy the dogs from the dog brokers but deal with people who just give you correct information because they don't have (money) profit from it
> You'll have good and correct priced dogs.




That's an excellant suggestion. The problem is, with imported dogs, most police departments don't have the infrastructure or the where-with-all, in Europe to travel and buy dogs with any success. I have been fortunate with a local breeder of GSD's in WTN. I've purchased two and have trained 4 of the dogs they produce. Next time I need dogs, I hope they have some available. As you well know, there aren't that many breeders, in the U.S. that are going to keep dogs until they are 18 months for PSD use and most of us don't buy puppies. 

DFrost


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## Jim Nash

There is no set standard for how Law Enforcement Agencies get or train dogs . There is going to be huge differences between the quality of K9s and handlers from area to area and quite frankly there are huge problems in the Law Enforcement K9 community here in the U. S . . 

The reasons for this are varied also . In some agencies it may be a single officer who brings the idea of a K9 unit to the bosses . This person might go out raise the money and equipment donations to start it up . Still money and the Officers time away from work getting the K9 initially trained are still a big deal for manpower reasons . Other issues are the agencies bigwigs along with the local governments who are still concerned with what they pay for and the big LIABILTY . Reasons for having K9's vary also some actually only want a dog for a deterent and never want it to bite . The bigwigs upstairs are also the ones who make the descisions on how they are going to go about forming and running a K9 unit and almost all of them have NO knowledge whatsoever in PSDs . That is probably the biggest factor IMO on the bad quality of some K9 units . 

These are just some issues . This is a very complex question and there are so many reasons for each individual agency doing what they are doing and yes ignorance is a big reason in many . But there are still alot good K9 units out there too so don't paint all of them with the same brush . I also agree with David that how much you pay isn't going to be the best answer .

It's like anything else you would get a bid on , construction landscaping , etc. . The lowest bid is usually the lowest for a reason but the highest bids aren't usually the best either . You also have to investigate those bidding and knowledge in that area diffinately helps . But how many people taking bids actually know anything about what they are looking for . If they did they probably would have done the work themselves .


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## Maureen A Osborn

todd pavlus said:


> NY state police get most there dogs from rescues:-k. So they can be trained at their new multi million dollar facility. Figure that one out


You have got to be kidding! Rescues? Oh boy! Do you know what trainers are doing the training?


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## Matt Grosch

the point still remains, the best dogs cost $10k


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Sure Matt, whatever you say, the best cost 10,000. I can tell you have major experience with this, as you have been brokering dogs for years and years. So tell us, how many of these "best" dogs have you sold ?


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## David Frost

I don't know if we get the "best". I don't see any of the major users in our area getting any better than we get. I don't know of anyone that has paid 10,000 for an untrained dog. There is a certain amount of snobbery in the purchase of a dog (the who and the where) but you don't see that much in PSD. The PSD trainers (all cops) I know and work with generally can't even tell you where they bought a particular dog unless they go to the dog's records. Most of us are end users. Meaning; pay the going rate, just like everyone does for milk and bread. We are diligent in our selection to get the best available for our money.

DFrost


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## Matt Grosch

You are disagreeing that the exceptional knpv dogs being sold by adlerhorst, or suttle, that cost 10k are the best pd k9's out there when compared to guys getting dogs that were $5k-$7k?


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## Matt Grosch

^ in response to jeff


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## Chris Michalek

Matt Grosch said:


> the point still remains, the best dogs cost $10k



lol

i'd put my $300 rottweiler up against your suttle bred DS any day. A dog either has it or it doesn't and then after that it's the training. 

Don't be silly. 


If you want to test your theory, we're training tonight where I met you the first time.


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## Matt Grosch

the bait was too obvious, subtlety would have taken you a bit farther



(and c'mon chris, I know that you know that the gilbert/mesa/chandler k9's are some of the best anywhere)


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## Chris Michalek

Matt Grosch said:


> the bait was too obvious, subtlety would have taken you a bit farther
> 
> 
> 
> (and c'mon chris, I know that you know that the gilbert/mesa/chandler k9's are some of the best anywhere)



that's true, the dogs around here are pretty nice. 


You should come train sometime anyway :mrgreen:


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## Greg Whelehan

Matt Grosch said:


> ^ in response to jeff


Matt:
The best dog don't make it to the states, they go to the dutch police....and are usually spoke for way prior to trial.


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## David Frost

Matt Grosch said:


> You are disagreeing that the exceptional knpv dogs being sold by adlerhorst, or suttle, that cost 10k are the best pd k9's out there when compared to guys getting dogs that were $5k-$7k?


I compare a dog to the standards to which it must be trained, by it's physical condition. Meeting standards is meeting standards. The 2,500 dollar dogs met those standards prior to 9/11. I have no doubt Mr. Suttle sells some good dogs. I'm sure Adlerhorst sells some good dogs as well. Just my guess mind you, but I'm thinking there are a lot of departments out there, with dogs that meet the required standards, that didn't cost 10K. I think only Jim Nash has that kind of money, ha ha. Right Jim??????

DFrost


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## David Frost

Greg Whelehan said:


> Matt:
> The best dog don't make it to the states, they go to the dutch police....and are usually spoke for way prior to trial.


I agree. Meaning some of us do a pretty good job with "top of the bottom of the barrel". 

DFrost


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## Matt Grosch

Greg Whelehan said:


> Matt:
> The best dog don't make it to the states, they go to the dutch police....and are usually spoke for way prior to trial.




#5 and #8 in the knpv world championships might be considered their best


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Once again, that depends on what you consider best. Maybe your 10,000 dollar high placement champions cur like bitches, or slaughter their handler and all the school children.

Dumbass ideas like yours have driven prices up to the point where small dept's don't even have a dog program. Sure that is only one of the reasons, but it is that same silly mentality that got dogs to 10,000 dollars in the first place.

Want to see prices fall ? And FAST ? Make the military and US police depts buy from only stateside breeders.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I have a dog that I can sell you Matt, I will give it to you for the bargain basement price of 12,000. It is the best police dog ever born.


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## Guest

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I have a dog that I can sell you Matt, I will give it to you for the bargain basement price of 12,000. It is the best police dog ever born.


 
The "Best"? No, wait, I want it.....


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## Jeff Oehlsen

It is the greatest ever born, I will give it to you as a bud for the low low price of 6500. However, Matt has to pay full super cop dog price. : )


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## Greg Whelehan

Matt Grosch said:


> #5 and #8 in the knpv world championships might be considered their best


Matt:
Placement in the championship has nothing to do with what is considered the best, but rather who scored the highest points. Not taking anything away from the 5th place or 8th place competitors but I will tell you there are lot more dogs in the KNPV program that are "better/stronger" but just don't have the "points" to get to the championships.


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## Jim Nash

Matt Grosch said:


> You are disagreeing that the exceptional knpv dogs being sold by adlerhorst, or suttle, that cost 10k are the best pd k9's out there when compared to guys getting dogs that were $5k-$7k?


Matt , we get 12-16 green dogs a year and we train them up from there . We have 3 vendors . 1 of them supplies about 3/4 of the new dogs . The other 2 split the rest . All go for about $7500 . All 3 vendors are basically a 1 man operation. They all have there own connections over in Europe . 

Using our main vendor as an example and having seen a handfull of Alderhorst and was given the opprotunity to have free rain at VonLiche (sp?) on a 2 day visit which was fun , I can tell you that our vendor supplies similar quality dogs . We are his main customer by far and I don't think he wants to expand any further .

I do give them credit for keeping their overall quality up there when operating such a large scale operation but reality is even those places have dogs of different qualities , some great , some average and some questionable . Also the number of dogs and quality of those dogs they have on hand can fluctuate from time to time . Not slamming them they do a good job and have a good reputation because of that . But they are not gods and not every dog they supply are some special forces , run thru fire , hit like a missile K9 . Some aren't even close . 

As for Mike Suttle , I like what I see so far and have brought him to the attention of our head trainer , who is interested also . Hopefully we can find out , but I'm a realist too . I have yet to see anyone live up to the hype some people start about them . If he turns out to supply dogs that surpasses our expectations that's awesome if we find out he falls in line with other good vendors then that's a plus too . My guess is he maybe somewhere in between . I kinda feel sorry for Mike because he's got alot of folks talking him up that haven't even seen his dogs in person but talk like ALL his dogs god's gift to law enforcement . That's alot to live up to and in my experiance noone that has been in Mike's place in the past have lived up to the hype . 

What I have seen so far in the vendor business is what I see with our main vendor's dogs . Years ago he had access to older stronger dogs . We got some pretty good tough dogs before 9/11 then the demand went up and dogs got younger and became more of a question mark when we began our training .


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## Jim Nash

David Frost said:


> I compare a dog to the standards to which it must be trained, by it's physical condition. Meeting standards is meeting standards. The 2,500 dollar dogs met those standards prior to 9/11. I have no doubt Mr. Suttle sells some good dogs. I'm sure Adlerhorst sells some good dogs as well. Just my guess mind you, but I'm thinking there are a lot of departments out there, with dogs that meet the required standards, that didn't cost 10K. I think only Jim Nash has that kind of money, ha ha. Right Jim??????
> 
> DFrost


Not even close to having that kind of money . If it weren't for our foundation that has a bunch of hard working well connected citizens going out and raising money to purchase dogs our 21 K9 unit would probably be half the size and we be purchasing some dogs and supplementing the rest by hunting all over hell for free donated dogs . Those were the days looking at hundreds just to find 10 or 12 that would work .

That reminds me our foundation just had their annual clay shoot/auction fundraiser . They got Tom Knapp to put on his shooting show . Awesome show and good guy . Anyone having fundraisers would have a good time with this guy putting on a show .

http://www.tomknapp.net/


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## Matt Grosch

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Once again, that depends on what you consider best. Maybe your 10,000 dollar high placement champions cur like bitches, or slaughter their handler and all the school children.
> 
> Dumbass ideas like yours have driven prices up to the point where small dept's don't even have a dog program. Sure that is only one of the reasons, but it is that same silly mentality that got dogs to 10,000 dollars in the first place.
> 
> Want to see prices fall ? And FAST ? Make the military and US police depts buy from only stateside breeders.





great idea, im sure the cops and military would have really great dogs then, maybe they should only buy guns that are made here too.... and I have the dumbass idea?....

and also, its not an idea, its reality


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## Matt Grosch

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I have a dog that I can sell you Matt, I will give it to you for the bargain basement price of 12,000. It is the best police dog ever born.




now if you had the credentials and history to back it up, that would count for something


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## Matt Grosch

Greg Whelehan said:


> Matt:
> Placement in the championship has nothing to do with what is considered the best, but rather who scored the highest points. Not taking anything away from the 5th place or 8th place competitors but I will tell you there are lot more dogs in the KNPV program that are "better/stronger" but just don't have the "points" to get to the championships.




potentially, but if they were top finishers, and if Reaver went out and tested and selected them, and if a local guy went with him, and if the departments (that have good programs and experience) that got them are really impressed....then you know you arent getting second rate dogs

of course the farther down the chain you are the more limited your options will be, but it doesnt make sense that the dutch are over there hoarding and stockpiling all the best dogs


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## Matt Grosch

Jim all that makes sense, and that seems to be when the price drops, for green dogs (or dogs that were purchased as green), vs a legit knpv dog that just needs a little time before it is ready for the street.


Also, I didnt say $10k will guarantee a great dog, just your chances are greater, and at least in my region, the k9 departments with the best dogs support this


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## Jim Nash

Matt Grosch said:


> Jim all that makes sense, and that seems to be when the price drops, for green dogs (or dogs that were purchased as green), vs a legit knpv dog that just needs a little time before it is ready for the street.
> 
> 
> Also, I didnt say $10k will guarantee a great dog, just your chances are greater, and at least in my region, the k9 departments with the best dogs support this


I like KNPV dogs . We have on occassion gotten titled KNPV dogs . As a matter of fact I like those dogs better then other dogs we get from other venues . But once again even though good dogs come out of it , this KNPV hype gets over blown . Often from people with no hands on experiance working these types of dogs . 

They require just as much work preparing it for the street . It's often just a different type of work needed when compared to dogs from different breedings or venues . 

I've come across some that tell me a KNPV dog is ready for the street because they title states Police Dog certified . All of the ones I've dealt with still need work preparing for patrol work . 

Long story short I disagree . It's alot more complicated then you believe .


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## Matt Grosch

the k9 unit I work with will now only use knpv dogs because they have had such good results with them, and the last purchase was street ready after a few weeks (a lot of time spent on detection)


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## David Frost

Matt Grosch said:


> the k9 unit I work with will now only use knpv dogs because they have had such good results with them, and the last purchase was street ready after a few weeks (a lot of time spent on detection)


What department is that? Just curious. You can PM me the answer if you don't want to post it. What is "a few weeks". 


DFrost


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## Gerry Grimwood

Chris Michalek said:


> lol
> 
> i'd put my $300 rottweiler up against your suttle bred DS any day. A dog either has it or it doesn't and then after that it's the training.
> 
> Don't be silly.
> 
> 
> If you want to test your theory, we're training tonight where I met you the first time.


This is the same dog that slept while you were being robbed..correct ??


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## Matt Grosch

David Frost said:


> What department is that? Just curious. You can PM me the answer if you don't want to post it. What is "a few weeks".
> 
> 
> DFrost



got its national K9 cert in 100 hrs (but then did an additional 2-3 weeks of street work once on duty)


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## sam wilks

chris you are full of s*** thats all I got to say about that


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## sam wilks

watch this clip chris


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0qsi1z4Fi8


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## Matt Grosch

I was under the impression he was 'trolling'


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## Chris Michalek

sam wilks said:


> watch this clip chris
> 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0qsi1z4Fi8



The challenge is there for Matt if he wants to do it. I didn't even mention the mali because it would be game over before it started. :twisted: 

I'm just kidding anyway, I really just want to see his dog.


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## Alice Bezemer

Greg Whelehan said:


> Matt:
> Placement in the championship has nothing to do with what is considered the best, but rather who scored the highest points. Not taking anything away from the 5th place or 8th place competitors but I will tell you there are lot more dogs in the KNPV program that are "better/stronger" but just don't have the "points" to get to the championships.



I agree with greg on this...a competitiondog does not by winning a good streetdog make 

most good streetdogs dont even see competitions to start with....what you see mostly on competitions and championships are dogs that will do the job as demanded....put it on the streets tho and have it do civilianwork ? most will fail or take to "fluffy bunnying " long to get up to scratch and be of use...

my opinion tho, no one has to share it


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## Matt Grosch

^ pretty interesting to hear a dutch person say that most of the knpv dogs will not be able to be working k9's

*edit to add- knpv titled^




(and look at everyone looking at the thread, its like a party)

l
l
l
V


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## Matt Grosch

and sure, having a title doesnt guarantee a street/real dog (although everyone agrees some titles count more than others)

but when you have someone like the most experienced dog broker(?) in the world doing evals before he buys them, then the individual police dept's doing their own evals, then a guarantee if it doesnt work out, you can be pretty confident you will have a good/real dog


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## Alice Bezemer

Matt Grosch said:


> ^ pretty interesting to hear a dutch person say that most of the knpv dogs will not be able to be working k9's
> 
> *edit to add- knpv titled^
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (and look at everyone looking at the thread, its like a party)
> 
> l
> l
> l
> V



read before you post matt....it says competitiondog ! theres a huge difference between the few that enter the competition cirquit and the MANY that get titled...and sold mostly before they are even titled to begin with....i never said that most KNPV dogs arent able to be working k9's...im saying that theres a HUGE FLUFFY DIFFERENCE between a competition dog and a dog that can actualy work the street....


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## Matt Grosch

do you mean that the knpv trials that are scored are not competitions?, or are you saying the dogs that go on from there like the knpv nationals are the competition dogs or are you talking about all dogs that compete that compete (knpv, ring, schutzhund)?


(no problem with the reading, just the interpreting)


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## Candy Eggert

Where's my popcorn?  This should be good. LOL


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## Gerry Grimwood

Candy Eggert said:


> Where's my popcorn?  This should be good. LOL


He's gonna be asking about fight drive next :lol:


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## Ashley Campbell

Candy Eggert said:


> Where's my popcorn?  This should be good. LOL


Wait for it...wait for it...BOOM.


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## Matt Grosch

Interesting. I wouldnt have originally guessed that saying there is a correlation between spending more and getting a better dog would have been so debated


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## Rik Wolterbeek

Matt Grosch said:


> #5 and #8 in the knpv world championships might be considered their best


KNPV World Championchips?? I think it is still called KNPV Nationals! KNPV is only done in Holland and a couple recognized clubs in Belgium and Germany I think but the certifications are only done in Holland I think. 
To become #5 and #8 at the KNPV nationals does not mean those dogs are good Police dogs.

Rik Wolterbeek


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## Jim Nash

Matt Grosch said:


> Interesting. I wouldnt have originally guessed that saying there is a correlation between spending more and getting a better dog would have been so debated


Because it's an over simplification of an issue and there is no correlation . There's more to it then just price or titles or types of titles . There are people out there selling titled showline dogs for $75,000 and people are willing to buy them sight unseen because in their minds if they cost that much they have to be good . Some much for your correlation . 

Not saying that's the case with the vendors we are discussing but what I am saying is there are people that have access to buying dogs of the same calibre as your favorite higher priced vendors , for much less . 

The competition dog vs. real dog can be argued in circles forever . When it comes down to it's an issue that can't be discussed effectively over the internet but out there seeing the dogs in question actually doing the work . Some dogs can be both great street and compettion dogs , other fall on one side of the spectrum or the other and most somewhere in between .


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## Candy Eggert

Ashley Campbell said:


> Wait for it...wait for it...BOOM.


With extra butter puleaze :lol:


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## Loring Cox

You also forget that part of the cost through a vendor is the level of support you get or don't get...

Example: one vendor will give you a year guarantee on the dog, another will be five years, and another will be four months. One will guarantee health, one drives, one workablility, etc... A private purchase is at your own risk.


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## Jim Nash

Loring Cox said:


> You also forget that part of the cost through a vendor is the level of support you get or don't get...
> 
> Example: one vendor will give you a year guarantee on the dog, another will be five years, and another will be four months. One will guarantee health, one drives, one workablility, etc... A private purchase is at your own risk.


and the fact that they will ask the for highest price they can get (if enough people are willing to pay more they'd be stupid not to ask that price ) or the price they need just to stay afloat as a business . Smaller operations offering a similar quality dog may be able to ask for less because there upkeep is less . 

So many factors that may go into what one might pay from certain vendors .


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: now if you had the credentials and history to back it up, that would count for something

You crack me up. You are about 40 years behind me, and with monetary value meaning the best dog in your massive amount of experience, I doubt you will ever get close.

We have some really experienced K9 guys on here. The dogs that I would want would eat a lot of k9 guys alive. It is not a fair comparison, but I have seen too many dogs come back all ****ed up in the head, or not come back at all (dead) to think like you do. I also know that the real monsters over in Holland are not going to be sold to ass **** arizona, and if 5th and 8th were, then really, how good were they ?

The dog I have will do real nice at the detection, and I am sure that he will do just fine if he has to bite someone. He may even retrieve metal, I know I have to rescue his food bowl every damn day.

By the way, that TD in the other thread with the alpha roll crap has all the credentials you are thinking you know matter. HA HA


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## Jim Nash

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> We have some really experienced K9 guys on here. The dogs that I would want would eat a lot of k9 guys alive.


Related to that I often wonder if the American public , LE administrators and court system are ready for dogs like these with the capabilities to cause alot of physical damage to suspects . 

My first K9 was strong and powerful and messed several suspects up . I was under alot of scrutiny while working with him . But some of these dogs I see working a suit in some of these videos put my first dog to shame . Reading some of the K9 court cases from around the country some courts are already weighing such things as time on the bite and damage to the suspect and comparing it to the crime and trying to determine if it was excessive . Even if it was a violent crime and the suspect violently resisted ! 

My current K9 isn't half as strong as my first but just as effective in locating badguys and will bite and hold while taking alot of punishment . He sure wouldn't impress some here with his bitework but he does the job he's trained for very well . 

Not only do the countries these dogs come from have a different type of culture in training and breeding but I'd hazard to guess they also have a culture in there justice systems that support the use of these types of dogs . 

With these dogs becoming more popular here it's only a matter of time til we find out . Guess what I'm getting at is careful what you wish for .


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

I just cannot imagine what this kid is thinking. He still thinks like a bulldog boy. if he keeps arguing the same lame argument, it will eventually work.

Can you imagine what someone would look like if they got hit like the decoy did in my favorite Spike video ? That was one of the first things I thought of. How much damage would occur ? How much trouble would that police dept get into ? I figure 99% of the time if you get beat up, or have the crap bit out of you, you probably deserved it. I wonder how many violent encounters total occur in the US on a daily basis ? That one percent is probably a big number, but compared to the total ?


----------



## jack van strien

Just what is cheap or expensive?I just added up some figures and to buy and keep a dog in Holland for 30 months,driving the dog around and a few other things already costs around 4000 euros.Say the average titled KNPV dog goes for 5000 euros in holland this is a lot more in dollars.The dog has to be shipped over and some one has to make a profit just to be able to pay the bills.I think 10000 dollars is not very expensive for a working police dog.A pos eats just as much as a good dog.I think that using a rescue dog for detection is a very good idea .


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## Matt Grosch

Rik Wolterbeek said:


> KNPV World Championchips?? I think it is still called KNPV Nationals! KNPV is only done in Holland and a couple recognized clubs in Belgium and Germany I think but the certifications are only done in Holland I think.
> To become #5 and #8 at the KNPV nationals does not mean those dogs are good Police dogs.
> 
> Rik Wolterbeek




right it does not mean it, but these two are, I worked with one of them tonight, picked up narcotics detection in one week, they were blown away, the last knpv dog did well and had it down in 4 weeks

and the top ten dogs in their championships are not guaranteed to be great police dogs, but without a doubt have a much better chance than the top ten schutzhund dogs, random group of imports, etc, etc

just like a gold medal wrestler or bjj black belt are not guaranteed to be good/real fighters, but have a much better chance than anyone else 


(and yes, knpv meaning dutch, not world, mistype/think)


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## Matt Grosch

and about them not sending over 'their best' you hear that alot, but see great dogs, it would be interesting to see what someone like dick/selena (or anyone else that has top dogs there) thinks, I really wonder if they would say those top finishers were not part of the best


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## Matt Grosch

Jim Nash said:


> Because it's an over simplification of an issue and there is no correlation . There's more to it then just price or titles or types of titles . There are people out there selling titled showline dogs for $75,000 and people are willing to buy them sight unseen because in their minds if they cost that much they have to be good . Some much for your correlation .
> 
> Not saying that's the case with the vendors we are discussing but what I am saying is there are people that have access to buying dogs of the same calibre as your favorite higher priced vendors , for much less .
> 
> The competition dog vs. real dog can be argued in circles forever . When it comes down to it's an issue that can't be discussed effectively over the internet but out there seeing the dogs in question actually doing the work . Some dogs can be both great street and compettion dogs , other fall on one side of the spectrum or the other and most somewhere in between .



Agree with the last part but the first part is wrong, that just basic logic and economics. Does paying $10k guarantee a good dog, no, but does it make it more likely than the guy trying to spend the least amount of money he can, of course.

And, what brokers can consistently get the same quality of dogs as someone like dave reaver, but at a much lower price?

Even the guys that have very tight connections and fly over there to get the handpicked dogs themselves spend the same money when the trip is factored in


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## Matt Grosch

Loring Cox said:


> You also forget that part of the cost through a vendor is the level of support you get or don't get...
> 
> Example: one vendor will give you a year guarantee on the dog, another will be five years, and another will be four months. One will guarantee health, one drives, one workablility, etc... A private purchase is at your own risk.




which is why my dept doesnt want to fly over and get the dogs there, and I know jinopo kenels (here and there) has a bad reputation for their guarantee


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## Matt Grosch

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: now if you had the credentials and history to back it up, that would count for something
> 
> You crack me up. You are about 40 years behind me, and with monetary value meaning the best dog in your massive amount of experience, I doubt you will ever get close.
> 
> We have some really experienced K9 guys on here. The dogs that I would want would eat a lot of k9 guys alive. It is not a fair comparison, but I have seen too many dogs come back all ****ed up in the head, or not come back at all (dead) to think like you do. I also know that the real monsters over in Holland are not going to be sold to ass **** arizona, and if 5th and 8th were, then really, how good were they ?
> 
> The dog I have will do real nice at the detection, and I am sure that he will do just fine if he has to bite someone. He may even retrieve metal, I know I have to rescue his food bowl every damn day.
> 
> By the way, that TD in the other thread with the alpha roll crap has all the credentials you are thinking you know matter. HA HA



1) I guess time will tell, in 40 years we will have to compare my list of accomplishments to yours

2) the original credentials/history point was in response to your offer of the best police dog you've seen for $12k or whatever, vs if someone like Reaver said that it would carry a lot of weight (only bringing up him a lot because of who he, I see a lot of his dogs, and he is the biggest or one of the biggest)

3) one dog that has been discussed here 'chucky' was from holland and its generally agreed that he is exceptional

4) #5 and #8 out of how many?.....seems pretty good, and it if was between that dog I worked with tonight,(one of those) and chucky, vs anything you have, I doubt you would find anyone that would bet on you.....and, you think your dog will do well in detection, this one had it down in a week

5) dont know what thread you are referring to or what point you are making


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## Matt Grosch

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I just cannot imagine what this kid is thinking. He still thinks like a bulldog boy. if he keeps arguing the same lame argument, it will eventually work.
> 
> Can you imagine what someone would look like if they got hit like the decoy did in my favorite Spike video ? That was one of the first things I thought of. How much damage would occur ? How much trouble would that police dept get into ? I figure 99% of the time if you get beat up, or have the crap bit out of you, you probably deserved it. I wonder how many violent encounters total occur in the US on a daily basis ? That one percent is probably a big number, but compared to the total ?





I havent seen them get into trouble when they have ripped a pec off, tore out a giant mouthful of hamstring, or had to pull a guy out from under a trailer by his head with constant re-grips.

Legally this would likely vary state to state, just like in the hippie north east where you cant shoot a burglar if there was a way for you to escape out of a window or something, vs TX


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## David Frost

Jim Nash said:


> Even if it was a violent crime and the suspect violently
> My current K9 isn't half as strong as my first but just as effective in locating badguys and will bite and hold while taking alot of punishment . He sure wouldn't impress some here with his bitework but he does the job he's trained for very well .
> 
> .


The primary duties of a PSD is to what???? You know the answer to this Jim. Your dog will bite/hold while taking a lot of punishment. My question would be; why do you think you need to impress folks that have a background in "watching" or those with experience with as many as gee I don't know 2 or three dogs. Don't fall for the hype. Personally, as long as we keep following the rules, I don't see a big change coming. Like everything else in this job, it's those that can't follow the rules that cause all of us problems. You are right, the discussion of sport v. PSD will go on forever. I've watched sport. I've yet to see them slam a dog into pavement, concrete walls, stab them or shoot them with a real gun. When you get to the point that you don't want those dogs that will bite/hold while taking a lot of punishment, uhhhhh I'll help you find them a good home. ha ha Well as long as they cost at least 10,000. I sure don't want to buy a cheap dog.

DFrost


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## Chris Michalek

matt, there is a very nice malinois at our club. he cost $200 total badass dog and no I'm not speaking of my own. Price doesn't matter.


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## Guest

David Frost said:


> _*The primary duties of a PSD is to what*_???? You know the answer to this Jim. Your dog will bite/hold while taking a lot of punishment. My question would be; why do you think you need to impress folks that have a background in "watching" or those with experience with as many as gee I don't know 2 or three dogs. Don't fall for the hype. Personally, as long as we keep following the rules, I don't see a big change coming. Like everything else in this job, it's those that can't follow the rules that cause all of us problems. You are right, the discussion of sport v. PSD will go on forever. I've watched sport. I've yet to see them slam a dog into pavement, concrete walls, stab them or shoot them with a real gun. When you get to the point that you don't want those dogs that will bite/hold while taking a lot of punishment, uhhhhh I'll help you find them a good home. ha ha Well as long as they cost at least 10,000. I sure don't want to buy a cheap dog.
> 
> DFrost


First and foremost is ALERT! regardless of what, can't bite it if he can't find it.......


----------



## Guest

Matt Grosch said:


> Agree with the last part but the first part is wrong, that just basic logic and economics. Does paying $10k guarantee a good dog, no, but does it make it more likely than the guy trying to spend the least amount of money he can, of course.
> 
> _*And, what brokers can consistently get the same quality of dogs as someone like dave reaver, but at a much lower price?*_
> 
> Even the guys that have very tight connections and fly over there to get the handpicked dogs themselves spend the same money when the trip is factored in


You obviously need to get out more.....although Dave has nice dogs, but there are plenty of others....

Price is immaterail in this ball game, HOWEVER marketing and so much demand has increased the price worldwide. Many vendors and even more trainers traveling all over has caused the price to go up....when said vendor knows said customer will pay xxxx dollars, why would he sell a dog for less?? It is a buisness after alll. 

Trainers from all type and make have different opinions on dogs and obvioulsy different requirements. Some have certain guidlelines they have to follow and statements of work that they have to stay within. All that being said a 3500 dog may be just as good or even better than a 10000 dog, all depends on what your looking for and who is training the animal. Some prefer more greener dogs (less traininig) some prefer already titled for the simple fact they ASSUME the dog needs less training for the street or less training in general. All in the eyes of the trainer and what he has to work with, so some of the statements you are saying I can agree with if thats what you and your deparment do.


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## Matt Grosch

Looks like I will have to disagree with the majority (here at least) then, since saying that price has absolutely NOTHING to do with with the quality of a dog (as opposed to just about everything else in the world) seems an unreasonable statement, and leave it at that.

But I will keep an eye out for any all stars that were free or bargain basement priced just to keep an open mind.


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## Matt Grosch

^^now to clarify when you say

"when said vendor knows said customer will pay xxxx dollars, why would he sell a dog for less?? It is a buisness after alll."

wouldnt that support my point? unless someone were to believe that the guys charging $10k for a dog are lying about how much profit they are making and that other guys out there are somehow getting the same dogs for either less money or are making almost zero profit from them

is that supposedly the difference between vendors selling dogs for $5k, $8k, and $10k?


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## Howard Knauf

A less than honest vendor will try to get 10k for every dog he has if he can get away with it. If he has 5 great dogs, 2 OK dogs, and three low quality dogs in his kennel he may be asking 10k across the board.

SELECTION is the key....not cost. If you are good at selection you'll probably get one of the 5 good ones. If you suck then you'll get a shitter. The vendor gets the same amount of money if you don't know what you're looking at. Believe me, there are vendors out there like this and they're not obscure. Some are well known.


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## Guest

Matt Grosch said:


> ^^now to clarify when you say
> 
> "when said vendor knows said customer will pay xxxx dollars, why would he sell a dog for less?? It is a buisness after alll."
> 
> wouldnt that support my point? unless someone were to believe that the guys charging $10k for a dog are lying about how much profit they are making and that other guys out there are somehow getting the same dogs for either less money or are making almost zero profit from them
> 
> is that supposedly the difference between vendors selling dogs for $5k, $8k, and $10k?


 
I have seen dogs all over this country and overseas that are charging WAY MORE than they are worth......but thats in my eyes, in yours or someone elses, they may be ok or a superstart.

Of course if you are looking for a dog, you may have to pay more for a better dog in some places because the vendor knows what's going on. Some places, based on friendships, partnerships, small mom and pop places are selling there dogs as a pastime of are not in it full time and may get a really super dog cheap. 

When looking at these dogs for any PSD/Sport you are looking at many things, but I would assume any good PD is looking for its future trainability the most. That being said, a good trainer may see somethng special in a dog that others don't to include a vendor and that do may be much cheaper and 6 months later a superstar. 

When you start talking titles and bloodlines, its instant marketing and money for vendor without much. 5-6 years ago, that wasn't even an issue whatsoever! Today it still isn't as far as the dogs workability, but the advertisement, promotion, HYPE, and marketing of dogs like that tend to come with a higher pricetag....some are shitbags, but all that is hidden under the name................


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## Guest

Howard Knauf said:


> A less than honest vendor will try to get 10k for every dog he has if he can get away with it. If he has 5 great dogs, 2 OK dogs, and three low quality dogs in his kennel he may be asking 10k across the board.
> 
> SELECTION is the key....not cost. If you are good at selection you'll probably get one of the 5 good ones. If you suck then you'll get a shitter. The vendor gets the same amount of money if you don't know what you're looking at. Believe me, there are vendors out there like this and they're not obscure. Some are well known.


 
Very well said, and true Selection and Assessment!!


----------



## Jim Nash

David Frost said:


> The primary duties of a PSD is to what???? You know the answer to this Jim. Your dog will bite/hold while taking a lot of punishment. My question would be; why do you think you need to impress folks that have a background in "watching" or those with experience with as many as gee I don't know 2 or three dogs. Don't fall for the hype. Personally, as long as we keep following the rules, I don't see a big change coming. Like everything else in this job, it's those that can't follow the rules that cause all of us problems. You are right, the discussion of sport v. PSD will go on forever. I've watched sport. I've yet to see them slam a dog into pavement, concrete walls, stab them or shoot them with a real gun. When you get to the point that you don't want those dogs that will bite/hold while taking a lot of punishment, uhhhhh I'll help you find them a good home. ha ha Well as long as they cost at least 10,000. I sure don't want to buy a cheap dog.
> 
> DFrost


Like some discussions this is branching out into other things slightly related to the original topic and I apologize but will continue because I think it's also informative .

Need to impress ? That was the exact opposite of the point of my statement . I have a very good PSD that fills the wide variety of things needed to do his job . He performs the primary job of a Police K9 in this country "Locating Tool" at a very high level . He also when required bites well and stays in it very well which I feel is great but have seen many here judging the worth of a PSD on how hard he can rip into a decoy .

I have seen and read on this forum and others many many discussions commenting on videos showing some pretty impressive bitework and how many follow up by saying that dog would make a great Police dog . 

When I see videos like that I think ; " That's some impressive bitework ! " BUT I'll reserve making an opinion on how well a PSD it might make when I see the many other things the dog needs to have to be and fullfill it primary duty as a PSD here in America . Some being tracking , off lead searches , article searching , general obediance or controlabilty ( outs , recalls , heeling , etc. ) , dealing with distractions , environmental soundness , ability to alert the handler to it's find(barking), etc . . 

I was just trying to put into perspect the role of a PSD in the U.S. and clarify the many traits we need outside of just how tough the dog fights . 

It is great to have a dog that can come to your rescue if you end up battling some 6'8" PCP freak in a dark alley . But reality is 99% of Police Officers don't have any K9 for backup and those that do use the dog for protection as part of the dogs job a very small percentage of the time . I for one have never needed either one of my dogs for handler protection . I have in on over 100 occassions needed him to bite and hold a violent suspect and was glad to have a strong dog that stayed in the fight in order for us to take him into custody but as protection straight up , not so far . The vast majority of a PSD's dogs work is going to be put into finding things not biting the **** out of stuff .


----------



## Jim Nash

Matt Grosch said:


> Agree with the last part but the first part is wrong, that just basic logic and economics. Does paying $10k guarantee a good dog, no, but does it make it more likely than the guy trying to spend the least amount of money he can, of course.
> 
> And, what brokers can consistently get the same quality of dogs as someone like dave reaver, but at a much lower price?
> 
> Even the guys that have very tight connections and fly over there to get the handpicked dogs themselves spend the same money when the trip is factored in


No what you're saying isn't " just basic logic and/or economics " , it's your skewed version of " basic logic and economics " .


----------



## Jim Nash

Matt Grosch said:


> I havent seen them get into trouble when they have ripped a pec off, tore out a giant mouthful of hamstring, or had to pull a guy out from under a trailer by his head with constant re-grips.
> 
> Legally this would likely vary state to state, just like in the hippie north east where you cant shoot a burglar if there was a way for you to escape out of a window or something, vs TX



You are correct . So far the courts have CORRECTLY been in favor of the PSD use of K9's . But it's important to remember that dogs causing the damage you described are rare when you look at how many working PSDs are out there in this country . Most aren't anywhere near capable of causing that much damage . 

I'm not trying to state the courts will change their stance on us if the PSD community here starts getting more and more dogs like that but I do think it's worth thinking about .

For the record I'm all for having the strongest dog possible for the job finding and taking violent suspects into custody . Just not sure the public is prepared for it since most don't know the reality of our job .


----------



## Jim Nash

Howard Knauf said:


> A less than honest vendor will try to get 10k for every dog he has if he can get away with it. If he has 5 great dogs, 2 OK dogs, and three low quality dogs in his kennel he may be asking 10k across the board.
> 
> SELECTION is the key....not cost. If you are good at selection you'll probably get one of the 5 good ones. If you suck then you'll get a shitter. The vendor gets the same amount of money if you don't know what you're looking at. Believe me, there are vendors out there like this and they're not obscure. Some are well known.


Ditto .


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## Howard Knauf

The courts may be on our side thus far but an officer can still get sued civilly. My last dog opened up a guys' thorasic cavity and I was sued. Didn't matter that the scumbag beat the crap out of his girlfriend, put two of our female officers on light duty for months, and threatened a witness with a gun. Our city covered me in the suit and ended up paying the guy to go away. Seems crime does pay but in this case the shit bag got his money's worth!!:lol::lol:


----------



## Jim Nash

I don't want folks to think I'm against vendors charging $10,000 for a good dog . If they can get it or they need to charge that much I'm all for it . Some do need to charge that much . But it still is possible to get the same type dog from someone else for less . The trick is finding that someone else . There's alot of BS vendors out there to sift through . Big name vendors with good reps are worth the added cost for the dog
to many just for that reason .


I will also add too that some of the things that interest me about Mike Suttle's dogs are that he doesn't just show dogs that are strong in bitework but he shows those dogs with strong searching abilities and environmental soundness too . It seems to me he gets it .


----------



## Jim Nash

Matt Grosch said:


> right it does not mean it, but these two are, I worked with one of them tonight, picked up narcotics detection in one week, they were blown away, the last knpv dog did well and had it down in 4 weeks



Did that with my personally owned Black Lab and I was just screwing around . Brought him in just to use for contamination for other dogs then descided to check him out just because I was curious . He cost me $350 as a pup . 

Later I gave him to my brother . He accidentally impressed some chick he brought home when the dog found some weed she had in her purse . She didn't like it much what he did to her purse though .


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Just out of curiosity, how many LE dog handlers are just learning what they are doing with a dog to where the best canines would be effectively worked. There is another thread going right now concerning a kid getting bit and that is on the handler.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: picked up narcotics detection in one week,

That sounds great, was the dog doing all the odors, or just one ?

The reason I asked is that my superdog, he was doing on odor the second day of training. LOL I shit you not. day two, on odor, and finding it no problem. Genius right ?

I guess when you have no idea how long it takes to train, a week sounds awesome.


----------



## Gillian Schuler

There are some very impressive looking dogs shown on the videos of sport dog competitions of all sorts. How any one can say these dogs would make good street dogs is beyond my comprehension. These dogs have never faced any kind of danger - just the "fight the good fight" with a happy ending.

Le Bosseur

http://www.lebosseur.at/dienst.htm

has to date bred 100 Malinos that are in the Austrian Police Force. Some of them obviously, and most of them, are sold as sport dogs. No one breeder could just breed for the police.

They started breeding in 1990.

I honestly wouldn't like to tell you where to get your dogs but then neither am I criticising you. I can imagine in parts of America, it must be frustrating to be in charge of the K9s.

And to hear from the wisecracks about all you have to do is pay enough!! As if that were the solution!!


----------



## David Frost

Matt Grosch said:


> Looks like I will have to disagree with the majority (here at least) then, since saying that price has absolutely NOTHING to do with with the quality of a dog (as opposed to just about everything else in the world) seems an unreasonable statement, and leave it at that.
> 
> But I will keep an eye out for any all stars that were free or bargain basement priced just to keep an open mind.


Matt, statements like that beg asking of you;

How many dogs have your purchased for police departments.

How many dogs have you trained to "street" level certifications. 

How many dogs have that you have either handled or trained, been used in actual deployment. Not trials, not certification, but actual fight with a bad guy.

How many dogs have you trained that have been severely injured or killed during a deployment. Not training, trial or certifying.

Have you personally seen a difference in the bargain basement dogs I buy (your words) and the 10,000 dollar dogs you are so familiar with. 

Just a few question to help bolster your bona fides.

DFrost


----------



## David Frost

Howard Knauf said:


> SELECTION is the key....not cost. If you are good at selection you'll probably get one of the 5 good ones. .


Howard, some of the less experienced among us; myself, Jim Nash, now you, etc have tried to inform him of the importance of selection. We find we are wrong however, it's price. I admit I didn't know that, but evidently that is the answer.

DFrost


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## Howard Knauf

Can you get good dogs for 10k? Absolutely. You can get crap dogs for the same price. How do you know one from the other? ......Selection/Testing.

I guess if we were talking hookers then price is a factor depending on one's financial situation...the end result is the same every time though no matter what you pay=D>=D>

It's different with working dogs ya know.


----------



## Amy Swaby

Howard Knauf said:


> Can you get good dogs for 10k? Absolutely. You can get crap dogs for the same price. How do you know one from the other? ......Selection/Testing.
> 
> I guess if we were talking hookers then price is a factor depending on one's financial situation...the end result is the same every time though no matter what you pay=D>=D>
> 
> It's different with working dogs ya know.


Howard you always make my day


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## Howard Knauf

Thanks.  How's the weather down there?


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## Jerry Lyda

You made mine too Howard and you Jim, David and some more are CORRECT. Your's is the best explaination though.


----------



## Matthew Grubb

My current partner cost the PD $3,500 when we got him in 03’
The next dog we bought in 04’ cost $4,000
The dog we bought a few months ago was $6,400

Would it be cool to be able say I have a KNPV Titled $10,000 dog…. Sure…. But it’s overkill when I can buy a $6,400 dog that can do everything the $10,000 dog can do just as well.


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## Harry Keely

I'm reading and reading etc.... I can't help but laugh at the price of 5 figures for a good dog. Just a heads up because its already been talked about in another thread. KNPV PH1 range from 3000 euro to 4500 euro for a really good one. broken down is 4500 USD to 6500 USD plus shipping still not hitting that 5 figure mark. 

Its all about selection sometimes the green dogs are stronger than any title and also easier to train because they dont have a sleeve or suit fixation. What good is a dog if the perp slips the jacket and the dog is still thrashing the jacket and the guys gone. It happens because I know the officer who thought to by a titled dog would make life easier in one of the surrounding counties of where I live.

Also know of a department made up of 14 K-9's 1GSD thats been stabbed back on the streets, another GSD retired last year that was shot and back on the streets, a couple of mal x gsd crosses, malis and DS. I know that they paid no where near that 5 figure mark. Not bad huh especially being the two GSD that were hurt in the line of duty and where not phased and are one still working the streets and like I said one was recently retired and replaced by a DS, Oh yea those handlers still go home to there families every night. Just for the record I'm not a GSD fan so take what I said for what its worth. It gos back to testing and selection not the dollar.


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## Jerry Lyda

Think it's the breed Harry. Nothing better than a great GSD. 

Go ahead and say it.


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## Jim Nash

Howard Knauf said:


> Can you get good dogs for 10k? Absolutely. You can get crap dogs for the same price. How do you know one from the other? ......Selection/Testing.
> 
> I guess if we were talking hookers then price is a factor depending on one's financial situation...the end result is the same every time though no matter what you pay=D>=D>
> 
> It's different with working dogs ya know.


Why didn't you say that earlier ? You would have saved me alot of typing .


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## David Frost

Howard Knauf said:


> I guess if we were talking hookers then price is a factor depending on one's financial situation...the end result is the same every time though no matter what you pay=D>=D>
> 
> .


Ok, ok, one time when I was in a land far-far away, I .............. well maybe that's a story for a different day.

DFr ----uhhh Fred


----------



## Jim Nash

Don Turnipseed said:


> Just out of curiosity, how many LE dog handlers are just learning what they are doing with a dog to where the best canines would be effectively worked. There is another thread going right now concerning a kid getting bit and that is on the handler.


You get PSD handlers from all walks of life . Most come in totally uneducated in anything close to training PSDs . Once again there is no set standard in picking them either . Agencies have different ways of picking them , for their own particular reasons . Some of them are good some are very bad . 

Now the "best" K9 is subjective . Everyone will have their own opinion what that is . Trying to pigeon hole PSDs drives me nuts . They have a wide variety of jobs they need to perform and the dogs we get come from different breeding and training philosophies along with being raised in different environments with owners that have their own ideas on how to raise them . There is VERY little uniformity when it comes to the certain types of dogs and their individual traits we get to work with . They all come with their own different strengths and weaknesses . 

When I was a trainer I'd prefer a dog that's going to go along with the program , with good prey drive and lots of confidence for new handlers . For me personally I like challenges . I like strong powerful dogs that may test me at times . Is that necessarily a better dog ? That's up for debate . 

For more experianced handlers I'd like them to take on dogs that may be a bit more challenging to train but that also depends on the handler and what I've been seeing lately is handlers less inclined to take on these type of dogs .


----------



## Adam Rawlings

Jim Nash said:


> For more experianced handlers I'd like them to take on dogs that may be a bit more challenging to train but that also depends on the handler and what I've been seeing lately is handlers less inclined to take on these type of dogs .


Is this because they don't really enjoy training/working the dogs and just want to do their job and go home without all the extra work?


----------



## Howard Knauf

David Frost said:


> Ok, ok, one time when I was in a land far-far away, I .............. well maybe that's a story for a different day.
> 
> DFr ----uhhh Fred



What? You got a different result? That's a story I gotta hear!!


----------



## Jim Nash

Adam Rawlings said:


> Is this because they don't really enjoy training/working the dogs and just want to do their job and go home without all the extra work?


For some , but for others I know they are actually very good , hard working a very capable handlers . What I've seen in police culture in general is that officers are more apt to put family first . That wasn't always the case when I started . We tended to focus more on work and our family sufferred . It's great for the family but for the community we really have fewer officers that will put in alot of their own free time and chase the badguys to the ends of the earth to catch them . 

For the Cop and K9 Handler in me it' frustrating . As a Dad that put my kids and ex-wife second because I was addicted to the job , I can understand why .


----------



## David Frost

Jim Nash said:


> For the Cop and K9 Handler in me it' frustrating . As a Dad that put my kids and ex-wife second because I was addicted to the job , I can understand why .


Amen

DFrost


----------



## Ashley Campbell

> I guess if we were talking hookers then price is a factor depending on one's financial situation...the end result is the same every time though no matter what you pay=D>=D>


What end result? Crabs?


----------



## Harry Keely

Jerry Lyda said:


> Think it's the breed Harry. Nothing better than a great GSD.
> 
> Go ahead and say it.


well not saying that there bad, but have defently become very hard to find any that will keep up with a mali or ds, both gsd on the force are old, ones retired and replace by a ds and the other is on its way. out of those 14, 4 of them are brand new many gsd were tested but none past the selection test. there getting one to two more in 2011 so maybe things will be different who knows.


----------



## Jerry Lyda

OK, now I can say this again, nothing better than a great GSD. I didn't say a GSD I said a great GSD . Key word great which could be a great Mali or Dutchie or whatever. The point is the breed doesn't matter as long as the dog is great. I'm playing with you Harry. It doesn't matter great is great. WINK


----------



## Al Curbow

Isn't it the single purpose dog that earns it's keep through asset seizure etc? 

Harry, Generalizations are kind of silly, look at the dog not the breed....a good dog is a good dog.


----------



## Maureen A Osborn

Not trying to hijack the thread, but since someone mentioned it....what happens to the dog that really hurts the perp, and the perp sues? Can it result in a lawsuit against the County? Can it result in people taking a 2nd look at using PSD's? I know some people are nervous of the dogo Inca taking its first civil bite, of the damage he may cause....is that why they don't want to use AB's or pit bulls for PSD's? I know its a lot of questions, sorry!


----------



## Harry Keely

Jerry Lyda said:


> OK, now I can say this again, nothing better than a great GSD. I didn't say a GSD I said a great GSD . Key word great which could be a great Mali or Dutchie or whatever. The point is the breed doesn't matter as long as the dog is great. I'm playing with you Harry. It doesn't matter great is great. WINK





Al Curbow said:


> Isn't it the single purpose dog that earns it's keep through asset seizure etc?
> 
> Harry, Generalizations are kind of silly, look at the dog not the breed....a good dog is a good dog.


Agree with a dog is based on a indivudual basis, I guess I meant that in so many words when I was describing the two GSD in a earlier post on this thread. But am still sticking to my guns that a great GSD as Jerry put it is becoming harder and harder to find hench the reason for depts. on all different levels are going to the mali and ds. In saying that I would be willing to own a great GSD that compare to a mali or ds in all apects of workability, agility, endurance and so forth and so on.


----------



## Harry Keely

Maureen A Osborn said:


> Not trying to hijack the thread, but since someone mentioned it....what happens to the dog that really hurts the perp, and the perp sues? Can it result in a lawsuit against the County? Can it result in people taking a 2nd look at using PSD's? I know some people are nervous of the dogo Inca taking its first civil bite, of the damage he may cause....is that why they don't want to use AB's or pit bulls for PSD's? I know its a lot of questions, sorry!


To some it up thats why there is case laws, SOP & SOG as well you hope that the K9 instructor / head of the unit trains and imprints in the handlers mind when to deploy and when not to deploy. If there is justified cause then the office and the dog will walk away if there in the wrong then game on to put it simply no matter the breed of dog being used fro PSD.


----------



## Mike Scheiber

Harry Keely said:


> Agree with a dog is based on a indivudual basis, I guess I meant that in so many words when I was describing the two GSD in a earlier post on this thread. But am still sticking to my guns that a great GSD as Jerry put it is becoming harder and harder to find hench the reason for depts. on all different levels are going to the mali and ds. In saying that I would be willing to own a great GSD that compare to a mali or ds in all apects of workability, agility, endurance and so forth and so on.


A very nice German Shepherds is going to cost you more than a Mali or Dutch. Fact in Germany the Police and Military are using more and more Malis because there inexpensive.:???:


----------



## David Frost

Maureen A Osborn said:


> Not trying to hijack the thread, but since someone mentioned it....what happens to the dog that really hurts the perp, and the perp sues? Can it result in a lawsuit against the County? Can it result in people taking a 2nd look at using PSD's? I know some people are nervous of the dogo Inca taking its first civil bite, of the damage he may cause....is that why they don't want to use AB's or pit bulls for PSD's? I know its a lot of questions, sorry!


There are rules for deployment. Anyone can sue, prevailing is a different matter. Generally, if you follow the rules, you will prevail. Assuming a handler has followed the rules, he will be granted qualified immunity. That releases the handler from personal liability. The judge may or may not allow the suit to continue with the department. The courts, have been very good to police departments that follow the rules. A plaintiff will try to show negligence in training/deployment. Being sued is not that much of a rarity. Poor/absent policy. Poor training, combined with poor supervision is sure to be a bad combination. The reprucussions of that scare me a lot more than using dogs that don't cost 10 thousand dollars

DFrost


----------



## Harry Keely

Mike Scheiber said:


> A very nice German Shepherds is going to cost you more than a Mali or Dutch. Fact in Germany the Police and Military are using more and more Malis because there inexpensive.:???:


Got nothing to do with price like many have already said, it has to do with training and selection.

You don't think that apples to oranges in numbers that it has become very hard not impossible but very hard to find that GSD that will be just as good if not better in all phases of comparison to the mali / DS when it comes to street or war time. You will go through alot more GSD that meet the standard for one GSD thats apllicable for the these times then your percentage of mali / ds I can guarantee you that. Just look at most departments through out the USA, Mexico, Canada, Carribean most of europe with the exception of Germany ( GSD ). or our military or the vendors that provide these contracts for the military, feds, private contracts. No comparison in numbers versus. Like I said its not impossible but has become very hard to find a true GSD anymore. Like I said I'm not opposed to them if its the right one. But per capita theres no argument nor discussion on the breeds being used as of now. Not trying to be bias here either by the way.


----------



## Mike Scheiber

Harry Keely said:


> Got nothing to do with price like many have already said, it has to do with training and selection.
> 
> You don't think that apples to oranges in numbers that it has become very hard not impossible but very hard to find that GSD that will be just as good if not better in all phases of comparison to the mali / DS when it comes to street or war time. You will go through alot more GSD that meet the standard for one GSD thats apllicable for the these times then your percentage of mali / ds I can guarantee you that. Just look at most departments through out the USA, Mexico, Canada, Carribean most of europe with the exception of Germany ( GSD ). or our military or the vendors that provide these contracts for the military, feds, private contracts. No comparison in numbers versus. Like I said its not impossible but has become very hard to find a true GSD anymore. Like I said I'm not opposed to them if its the right one. But per capita theres no argument nor discussion on the breeds being used as of now. Not trying to be bias here either by the way.


Sorry but the very nice and great ones dont end up in American police cars there are way to many privet and sport people willing to pay 10 large and more for a really nice starter dog I know I would.
Like I said the Germans cant even afford them.


----------



## Howard Knauf

Ashley Campbell said:


> What end result? Crabs?



No....A happy ending\\/\\/\\/


----------



## Maureen A Osborn

Thanks Harry and David for answering my questions....makes sense what you say(follow the rules).


----------



## Ashley Campbell

If you say so, I don't think STD's = happy ending though.


----------



## Harry Keely

Mike Scheiber said:


> Sorry but the very nice and great ones dont end up in American police cars there are way to many privet and sport people willing to pay 10 large and more for a really nice starter dog I know I would.
> Like I said the Germans cant even afford them.


Well your aloud to your own beliefs and preferences when it comes to sports and private homes in which most of them don't have a clue to how to handle a high end dog but want one because its cool and gives them bragging rights per say. But we are talking about dogs that have a purpose & serve the citizens of our country in this thread wheter it be on USA or foreign soil. Yes I respect sport dogs ( some sport dogs are actually police dogs as well ), I'm going to quit here because I can see this going back and forth, back and forth - So you have your opinion and I have mine and we will leave it like that.


----------



## Harry Keely

Maureen A Osborn said:


> Thanks Harry and David for answering my questions....makes sense what you say(follow the rules).


No problemo


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Mike Scheiber said:


> A very nice German Shepherds is going to cost you more than a Mali or Dutch. Fact in Germany the Police and Military are using more and more Malis because there inexpensive.:???:


 
The price is often dictated by the breed club (guide line). I'll stick my neck out here and say, nice or not, GSDs are about Euros 700-800 for a pup and Malinois the same. They are about the cheapest dogs out!!

Just as a comparison, in 1989 the Briard cost Euro 1000 when the GSD and Malinois were about 500.

I'm sure the breeders don't up the price for the police - they like to admit that their dogs are bred for sports and service, gives Kudos to the Kennels.


----------



## manny rose

I'm pretty new to dog business but def. Not new to bus. In general! I'm posting about the gsd pricing Mike spoke of. I see it in a simpler way= usually when the price of something goes that high, that means there is a demand for something that isn't easy to find. Meaning as others have said getting a gsd comparable to a mal or ds (where talking all phases of the work) must be harder to find. Where I imagine if your looking for mals or ds for same work they are more readily available, propably why there are many more mali and ds working and being bred..that's just a quick take from reading those posts not taking any side just an observation!


PHP:








Hi, Manny: Please see your PMs. Thanks. 
Mod


----------



## Matthew Grubb

Another thing.....

Back in 1995 we use to get 2.5 Year old GSD's with Sch1 titles on them....

Today good luck finding a 2.5 year old dog.....

Good luck finding a 13 month old dog with a title......

Today police departments are getting green dogs at about 13-16 months old for $6,400

And as a side note: The last three dogs I've trained have all been green dogs... what a joy... few goofy issues.


----------



## David Frost

Matthew Grubb said:


> Today police departments are getting green dogs at about 13-16 months old for $6,400
> 
> And as a side note: The last three dogs I've trained have all been green dogs... what a joy... few goofy issues.


My experiences as well over the past couple of years. My last purchase was an 11 month old Dutchie. Much younger than I really liked. I babied it through an explosives detector. He's 20 months now and now starting to show some maturity. I have certainly noticed they are getting younger. I think Jim Nash made a similar comment about seeing younger dogs. 

DFrost


----------



## Matt Grosch

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: picked up narcotics detection in one week,
> 
> That sounds great, was the dog doing all the odors, or just one ?
> 
> The reason I asked is that my superdog, he was doing on odor the second day of training. LOL I shit you not. day two, on odor, and finding it no problem. Genius right ?
> 
> I guess when you have no idea how long it takes to train, a week sounds awesome.




a dog having (all) of its detection down in a week is impressive to anybody


----------



## Matt Grosch

What does something like "how many dogs have you purchased for pd's" have to do with the belief that you will or will not generally get what you pay for? It would make sense that the quality of expericence matters, not numbers.

(as touched on in conversation), police are known for having a disconnect often regarding things like firearms, defensive tactics, and dog training (by the best competition trainers). So one sharp guy thats part of a top notch police k9 team would have a more valuable opinion than a guy that has done if for 20 years but not well. Just like generally getting what you pay for is a general truth, years of expericence rarely equals expertise (just go into any martial arts place by you). I involve myself with world class trainers, top notch police k9 units, and more than likely did more research than anyone before selecting my dog. So if something both seems common sense, and is supported by people with highly credible opinions, thats what Im going with. Just one example, if the brokers with some of the best reputations around, take Reaver and Suttle again, say something, it probably true. If a broker not known for great dogs, nor for having a good reputation says something, it probably isnt true.

And if I was the gambling type, I wouldnt hesitate for a second on betting that, given say....a week, I would get a better dog for $10k than most would for free - $5k if you had to have to a dog ready to work ASAP


And as to your last question, yes, I see a night and day difference betwen the many $10k (usually, perhaps even in every case, dutch) dogs, and the military and lower budget pd's. That may be with only 100'ish dogs but it is such an obvious distinction that its the purpose of this original question.

**also, its downright silly for people to argue that they know of a dog that was free or a few hundred bucks, and is top notch, as support for the belief that price has nothing to do with quality. Thats like the old storied about finding a hemi cuda in a farmers barn or getting a porsche for nothing because the lady was selling her soon to be ex-husbands car. The question is, obviously, do you generally get what you pay for, this eliminates the odd exceptions like a dog from the pound or the protectiondogs.com scam artist from the discussion




David Frost said:


> Matt, statements like that beg asking of you;
> 
> How many dogs have your purchased for police departments.
> 
> How many dogs have you trained to "street" level certifications.
> 
> How many dogs have that you have either handled or trained, been used in actual deployment. Not trials, not certification, but actual fight with a bad guy.
> 
> How many dogs have you trained that have been severely injured or killed during a deployment. Not training, trial or certifying.
> 
> Have you personally seen a difference in the bargain basement dogs I buy (your words) and the 10,000 dollar dogs you are so familiar with.
> 
> Just a few question to help bolster your bona fides.
> 
> DFrost


----------



## Matt Grosch

David Frost said:


> Howard, some of the less experienced among us; myself, Jim Nash, now you, etc have tried to inform him of the importance of selection. We find we are wrong however, it's price. I admit I didn't know that, but evidently that is the answer.
> 
> DFrost




thats not what has happened at all.... none of you have said its a matter of selection, I said spending more helps you get a better dog, those that disagreed said price has NOTHING to do with it

of course you might get a top notch dog from a small broker for $5k, but your chances are better by going somewhere like adlerhorst and paying $10k

*although, as covered, brokers know what dogs go for and what they have to pay for them, so it would be odd for one to sell one of their top notch dogs for $5k.


----------



## Matt Grosch

Matthew Grubb said:


> My current partner cost the PD $3,500 when we got him in 03’
> The next dog we bought in 04’ cost $4,000
> The dog we bought a few months ago was $6,400
> 
> Would it be cool to be able say I have a KNPV Titled $10,000 dog…. Sure…. But it’s overkill when I can buy a $6,400 dog that can do everything the $10,000 dog can do just as well.




for a green dog or ready to work dog?


----------



## Matt Grosch

Thats kinda close to my point, just knowing what knpv dogs costs takes them completely out of the equation if people are arguing for $5k.

And of course, this is a discussion only about mature dogs ready to start working, not a green dog that a lot of time and training would have to be put in to, since that, and a (reputable) guarantee, is factored into the price of a dog.

But yeah, selection...but for a mature ready to work dog, $10k gets you a lot of selection, having a budget of 0 -$5k gets you very little selection




Harry Keely said:


> I'm reading and reading etc.... I can't help but laugh at the price of 5 figures for a good dog. Just a heads up because its already been talked about in another thread. KNPV PH1 range from 3000 euro to 4500 euro for a really good one. broken down is 4500 USD to 6500 USD plus shipping still not hitting that 5 figure mark.
> 
> Its all about selection sometimes the green dogs are stronger than any title and also easier to train because they dont have a sleeve or suit fixation. What good is a dog if the perp slips the jacket and the dog is still thrashing the jacket and the guys gone. It happens because I know the officer who thought to by a titled dog would make life easier in one of the surrounding counties of where I live.
> 
> Also know of a department made up of 14 K-9's 1GSD thats been stabbed back on the streets, another GSD retired last year that was shot and back on the streets, a couple of mal x gsd crosses, malis and DS. I know that they paid no where near that 5 figure mark. Not bad huh especially being the two GSD that were hurt in the line of duty and where not phased and are one still working the streets and like I said one was recently retired and replaced by a DS, Oh yea those handlers still go home to there families every night. Just for the record I'm not a GSD fan so take what I said for what its worth. It gos back to testing and selection not the dollar.


----------



## Matt Grosch

To clarify, you are saying a dog that is sold in europe, for $6,500, plus shipping, whatever else is done over here, and a guarantee = $9,600 at Reavers is or is not the reasonable going rate. Because thats what im looking at for titled/mature dogs.

And I guess anyone that disagrees is saying all the top notch k9 departments with really impressive dogs are crazy for going there instead of trying to find something (mature) for around half that........?


----------



## will fernandez

My dept paid around 6500 dollars for our dogs. My dog cost me 400 dollars as a pup from Iedema police dogs and was on the street at 16 months. I bought a 6 month old dog at a knpv trial and total cost was 3200 with the shipping. He should be on the street in Feb. 

Most dept just dont have the time or the knowledge to go looking for good dogs. The time cost benefit of going through a broker is just easier. 

I am pretty sure that the Gilbert PD or Phoenix didnt pay 10 grand for their dogs but I could be wrong.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Well Matt with all of your experience, how long does it usually take ?


----------



## Matt Grosch

Matthew Grubb said:


> Another thing.....
> 
> Back in 1995 we use to get 2.5 Year old GSD's with Sch1 titles on them....
> 
> Today good luck finding a 2.5 year old dog.....
> 
> Good luck finding a 13 month old dog with a title......
> 
> Today police departments are getting green dogs at about 13-16 months old for $6,400
> 
> And as a side note: The last three dogs I've trained have all been green dogs... what a joy... few goofy issues.



so this post, and david agreed right after it, is putting the price of GREEN dogs at $6400, so it still doesnt make sense why mature dogs with a lot of training for $10k is argued


**still waiting for someone to tell me where these places are that have awesome mature dogs with training for super low prices


----------



## Matt Grosch

will fernandez said:


> My dept paid around 6500 dollars for our dogs. My dog cost me 400 dollars as a pup from Iedema police dogs and was on the street at 16 months. I bought a 6 month old dog at a knpv trial and total cost was 3200 with the shipping. He should be on the street in Feb.
> 
> Most dept just dont have the time or the knowledge to go looking for good dogs. The time cost benefit of going through a broker is just easier.
> 
> I am pretty sure that the Gilbert PD or Phoenix didnt pay 10 grand for their dogs but I could be wrong.




Phoenix and much of the west valley pays about $8,700 from von lichey, most of the east valley cities pay $9600 at adlerhorst, gilbert said they spend about the same but fly over and get the dogs themselves. And there are depts that spend a lot less and the dogs seem much less impressive


----------



## Matt Grosch

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Well Matt with all of your experience, how long does it usually take ?




apparently, detection normally takes much longer than a week, how long would you say?


----------



## Amy Swaby

Matt Grosch said:


> apparently, detection normally takes much longer than a week, how long would you say?


So... *you* don't know the answer but will continue to press that anybody would be impressed by "all detections learned in a week". It doesn't really help your point if you don't have the answer to supposit back.




Howard Knauf said:


> Thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How's the weather down there?


About 86 degrees, just starting to cool off. Have some mutt puppies to go find homes for and training my own fathead. Looking forward to embarrassing the old bidies at the obedience trials in March again when my fat rottweilers outrun their cattle dogs and border collies.


----------



## Matt Grosch

Amy Swaby said:


> So... *you* don't know the answer but will continue to press that anybody would be impressed by "all detections learned in a week". It doesn't really help your point if you don't have the answer to supposit back.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> About 86 degrees, just starting to cool off. Have some mutt puppies to go find homes for and training my own fathead. Looking forward to embarrassing the old bidies at the obedience trials in March again when my fat rottweilers outrun their cattle dogs and border collies.



yes, anyone would be impressed with a dog having narcotics detection down in a week, as it normally takes longer than that, are you daring to dispute that this is impressive?


(and fyi....its not something where you can say it takes X number of weeks, like any other skill in the universe)


----------



## David Frost

Matt says: "What does something like "how many dogs have you purchased for pd's" have to do with the belief that you will or will not generally get what you pay for?"

It's called experience. It's not "been there" it's working there now. It's putting dogs into service and managing or being responsible for those dogs on a daily basis. 

Matt G says: " police are known for having a disconnect often regarding things like firearms, defensive tactics, and dog training (by the best competition trainers)."

I have absolutely nothing to do with firearm training or defensive tactics. This thread had nothing to do with them either. As for dog training, you challenged someone to compare their record with your in 40 years --- I'm ready to do that now. As for competition trainers, I have no idea what the means either. The only thing my dogs are in competition with is the bad guy we might meet tonight. I don't do sport, I've never hidden that. I don't compare my dogs or my program to sport. I'm not a competition whore.

To be honest I was going to make some more comparisons, but I have to tell you, your talk of all these world class trainers and vendors is nothing more than gibberish to me. I only recognize a couple of the names you mentioned because they've been mentioned on this forum at one time or another. Name dropping is an interesting venture. 

DFrost


----------



## David Frost

Matt Grosch said:


> thats not what has happened at all.... none of you have said its a matter of selection, I said spending more helps you get a better dog, those that disagreed said price has NOTHING to do with it
> 
> .


IN post number 5 of this thread, I said: It's not the price it's the selection. Paying more money doesn't guarentee a thing. It's all in the selection. 

In post number 21 I said: I don't know of anyone that has paid 10,000 for an untrained dog.

Post 81, Howard said: SELECTION is the key....not cost. 

In post 83 Jody said: Very well said, and true Selection and Assessment!!

In post 87, Nash said: Ditto . He was agreeing with Howard saying the key was in assessment and selection not cost. 


Yeah, selection has been mentioned. It's been mentioned in more than just these posts, I just happen to select these. Additionally, I've never bought a trained dog in my life. That's what they pay me to do. I stand corrected, I did buy a 4 year old USPCA PDI, dual purpose (drug) fro $2,000 from a department in Ohio that was shut down due to budget. 

Why would I buy trained dogs. It's what they pay me to do.

Matt G., I'll leave the discussion in your knowledgable hands. You did mention one thing that a mentor of mine taught me years ago. There are those that have 20 years of experience. There are also those that have one year of experience 20 times. Be careful on which path you follow. 
DFrost


----------



## Jeff Threadgill

There... you done did it. Got David frosty haha.

I have met only one other person with that many years in police k9. David speaks, I listen period. I might disagree sometimes, but then I ask "why not this way?" The other guy I mentioned has never spent nowhere near 10g for 1 dog. I would imagine the city council will laugh your ass out of the budget agenda. Around here anyways. Like everyone else said selection/training is key to any good k9 team. I imagine if you had their experience, you know what works and what don't and they're getting the job done. 

Personally I believe if a dept spends 10g on 1 freaking dog, then they are wasting funds.


----------



## Bob Scott

I think it was David that said he once traded a 100 dollar pickup truck and two 450 dollar chickens for a 1,000 dollar hound dog. 
Sounds like a deal to me! :wink:


----------



## Jeff Threadgill

Bob Scott said:


> I think it was David that said he once traded a 100 dollar pickup truck and two 450 dollar chickens for a 1,000 dollar hound dog.
> Sounds like a deal to me! :wink:


Lmao, hey that might work!

Let's see... PD puts 5g, trade some incarcerated hookers for the other 5g to get that ultimate k9!

Ma'am, you do this, its time served!


----------



## Nicole Stark

Matt Grosch said:


> a dog having (all) of its detection down in a week is impressive to anybody


What does "all" encompass (substances and scope of training)? Also, what typically is the standard timetable for this process?


----------



## Chuck Zang

Matt Grosch said:


> But yeah, selection...but for a mature ready to work dog, $10k gets you a lot of selection, having a budget of 0 -$5k gets you very little selection


 

Looking at Matt's post's it seems that he said he was looking at a 10K dog, ready to work the streets. If so, that would not be a bad price although I like the process of "building " the green dogs. I forget what my dept paid for a trained "ready to work" dog when they purchased it 7 years ago but we had some issues with it and still had to invest a good bit of training time into him to pass certification and that gets a little bit complicated because you don't know how/what was done to them previously. He was on the street more quickly than running a full school but not quite out of the box. 

However, 10K just because he is titled KNPV would, in my opinion, be stupid if you think that makes him ready to work the street. A KNPV dog wouldn't be likely to pass any of the national organizations cert's, or any in-house cert's that I'm familiar with, without additional training or de-conditioning. 

My dept, paid 6000 for the last two green dogs that we purchased. Selection was the key to our "success." There were some real $h***ers in the group that we looked at,and they all carried the same price tag.


----------



## Jim Nash

Matt Grosch said:


> What does something like "how many dogs have you purchased for pd's" have to do with the belief that you will or will not generally get what you pay for? It would make sense that the quality of expericence matters, not numbers.
> 
> (as touched on in conversation), police are known for having a disconnect often regarding things like firearms, defensive tactics, and dog training (by the best competition trainers). So one sharp guy thats part of a top notch police k9 team would have a more valuable opinion than a guy that has done if for 20 years but not well. Just like generally getting what you pay for is a general truth, years of expericence rarely equals expertise (just go into any martial arts place by you). I involve myself with world class trainers, top notch police k9 units, and more than likely did more research than anyone before selecting my dog. So if something both seems common sense, and is supported by people with highly credible opinions, thats what Im going with. Just one example, if the brokers with some of the best reputations around, take Reaver and Suttle again, say something, it probably true. If a broker not known for great dogs, nor for having a good reputation says something, it probably isnt true.
> 
> And if I was the gambling type, I wouldnt hesitate for a second on betting that, given say....a week, I would get a better dog for $10k than most would for free - $5k if you had to have to a dog ready to work ASAP
> 
> 
> And as to your last question, yes, I see a night and day difference betwen the many $10k (usually, perhaps even in every case, dutch) dogs, and the military and lower budget pd's. That may be with only 100'ish dogs but it is such an obvious distinction that its the purpose of this original question.
> 
> **also, its downright silly for people to argue that they know of a dog that was free or a few hundred bucks, and is top notch, as support for the belief that price has nothing to do with quality. Thats like the old storied about finding a hemi cuda in a farmers barn or getting a porsche for nothing because the lady was selling her soon to be ex-husbands car. The question is, obviously, do you generally get what you pay for, this eliminates the odd exceptions like a dog from the pound or the protectiondogs.com scam artist from the discussion



David has got 23 years in the MWD Program doing many various things , 20+ years as head of a 44 K9 unit involving amongst many other duties , the training and aquiring of potential K9s . 

Matt is a Firefighter , lawyer , Reserve Police Officer , likely did more research than anybody before selecting his dog , associates and train with world class trainers, top notch police k9 units .

I agree Matt , many years experiance doing something badly doesn't trump a short time doing it well . But none the less hands on experiance means alot . As far as experiance in aquiring training and deploying PSD's you got none . You're regurgitating what you think you have heard , seen and researched from others . 

I have had experiance with seeing dogs from Alderhorst and Von Liche , they turn out good products and IMO $10,000 isn't a bad price for someone to pay for dog from them . But it's also been my experiance having trained and participated in selecting PSDs and even after having seen dogs from the above mentioned vendors/trainers , amongst many others , that it's possible to get the same type dog for less . 

To repeat what's been said over and over again it's selection not price that is important .


----------



## Matt Grosch

David Frost said:


> Matt says: "What does something like "how many dogs have you purchased for pd's" have to do with the belief that you will or will not generally get what you pay for?"
> 
> It's called experience. It's not "been there" it's working there now. It's putting dogs into service and managing or being responsible for those dogs on a daily basis.
> 
> Matt G says: " police are known for having a disconnect often regarding things like firearms, defensive tactics, and dog training (by the best competition trainers)."
> 
> I have absolutely nothing to do with firearm training or defensive tactics. This thread had nothing to do with them either. As for dog training, you challenged someone to compare their record with your in 40 years --- I'm ready to do that now. As for competition trainers, I have no idea what the means either. The only thing my dogs are in competition with is the bad guy we might meet tonight. I don't do sport, I've never hidden that. I don't compare my dogs or my program to sport. I'm not a competition whore.
> 
> To be honest I was going to make some more comparisons, but I have to tell you, your talk of all these world class trainers and vendors is nothing more than gibberish to me. I only recognize a couple of the names you mentioned because they've been mentioned on this forum at one time or another. Name dropping is an interesting venture.
> 
> DFrost



no, I never 'challenged' anyone to anything, I responded to the claim that years of experience = credibility (something that often is not true)


And I guess thats another thing that, apparently, people can disagree on. I believe that the world class vendors are known as such for a reason, and those that are not, also are for a reason.

Call me crazy then to believe the better dog is a titled knpv dog that adlerhorst is selling as opposed to a dog thats half that much from billy bob the dog dealer.


----------



## Matt Grosch

David Frost said:


> IN post number 5 of this thread, I said: It's not the price it's the selection. Paying more money doesn't guarentee a thing. It's all in the selection.
> 
> In post number 21 I said: I don't know of anyone that has paid 10,000 for an untrained dog.
> 
> Post 81, Howard said: SELECTION is the key....not cost.
> 
> In post 83 Jody said: Very well said, and true Selection and Assessment!!
> 
> In post 87, Nash said: Ditto . He was agreeing with Howard saying the key was in assessment and selection not cost.
> 
> 
> Yeah, selection has been mentioned. It's been mentioned in more than just these posts, I just happen to select these. Additionally, I've never bought a trained dog in my life. That's what they pay me to do. I stand corrected, I did buy a 4 year old USPCA PDI, dual purpose (drug) fro $2,000 from a department in Ohio that was shut down due to budget.
> 
> Why would I buy trained dogs. It's what they pay me to do.
> 
> Matt G., I'll leave the discussion in your knowledgable hands. You did mention one thing that a mentor of mine taught me years ago. There are those that have 20 years of experience. There are also those that have one year of experience 20 times. Be careful on which path you follow.
> DFrost




since the whole point of this entire thread then is about mature trained dogs, you or someone could have responded that "not all departments want or can afford older titled dogs so they will get less expensive green dogs".....which apparently is your point, but still doesnt provide any info since I know green dogs, and puppies, cost less than trained dogs

The issue is, when wanting a trained dog, why would someone spend as little as possible, (and not be willing to pay something our of their own pocket if the dept wants to be cheap)


and it doesnt make sense that selection is the only thing that matters, just like cost isnt the only thing that matters ...its both


and regarding dogs, (or shooting, fighting, and anything else), its not the years of experience, its the quality of the experience


----------



## Candy Eggert

Are you getting a kick back (very popular these days I hear ~ LOL) from Dave Reivers?! I didn't go back and count the number times you mentioned his name or Adlerhorst but even at $10/per you might have some nice retirement funds stacked up ;-)

Seriously I personally know one dog that Dave imported that was severely dyplastic. Of course he stood behind the dog and offered to make it right. ie, pay for the neuter. But no one walks on water in the dog brokering business. No one!


----------



## Guest

Matt Grosch said:


> no, I never 'challenged' anyone to anything, I responded to the claim that *years of experience = credibility* (something that often is not true)
> 
> 
> And I guess thats another thing that, apparently, people can disagree on. I believe that the world class vendors are known as such for a reason, and those that are not, also are for a reason.
> 
> Call me crazy then to believe the better dog is a titled knpv dog that adlerhorst is selling as opposed to a dog thats half that much from billy bob the dog dealer.


:-k


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## Matt Grosch

exactly, so when I said you have the best chance by not being cheap, going to a place with a good reputation (and yes, selection like your example, where you get to look at a lot of dogs, and the high numbers coming in make replacing dogs easy and quick), that would be the best course of action


he comes up because, at least in the west he seems to be the main guy, and his dogs are a lot better than the people that (are spending less) and not getting them from him


----------



## Gerry Grimwood

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S763XfrZXH0&feature=related

:razz:


----------



## Guest

Matt Grosch said:


> exactly, so when I said you have the best chance by not being cheap, going to a place with a good reputation (and yes, selection like your example, where you get to look at a lot of dogs, and the high numbers coming in make replacing dogs easy and quick), that would be the best course of action
> 
> 
> he comes up because, at least in the west he seems to be the main guy, and his dogs are a lot better than the people that (are spending less) and not getting them from him


I know Dave very well, and know how he gets and selects his dogs, I never said he didn't have any good dogs,I have seen very nice dogs there and from there across the country, but from all your posts throughout this thread and on others, seems like you may have blinders on. There are other places, smaller, larger, etc. Not as well known, but great dogs, some more expensive, some less. But just seems like your going on what you know and have experience with, which is understandable, but I wouldn't make some of the comments you made in open forum, it doesn't sound like "years of experience" in my opinion. Look back five years ago, what most were paying for dogs, titled and not....look today...look at vendors all over five years ago and today, three times as many and the ones who were small are now large. All have one thing in common, regardless of what they were charging, the are charging more now, one to stay in buisness and two because the demand is so high that people will pay more even for less quality of animal.


----------



## Matt Grosch

^ for jody (since who knows how many more posts will appear on this hopping thread before I hit send)

So if prices have all gone up, and trained dogs cost more than untrained dogs. (The $6,500 figure was given earlier). How much do you think it costs to bring in, transport, check, and offer a guarantee for a trained dog. Im asking you because what you said makes sense and seems to fit with my original point.


----------



## Chris Michalek

Matt Grosch said:


> Call me crazy then to believe the better dog is a titled knpv dog that adlerhorst is selling as opposed to a dog thats half that much from billy bob the dog dealer.





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqv88rE49_E


----------



## Matt Grosch

and, completely seriously, (her, PM, whatever) please point out anything Ive said that shouldnt have been said. I think Ive done a pretty good job of respectfully asking, and then responding to people that A) just like to argue, B) might have been offended at the notion, mistaken or not, that they did something wrong by spending less, or C) actually disagree, which I still dont understand since most people disagreeing are either disagreeing with something I didnt say, or claiming price is not a part of the equation. Since Im not here to stir trouble, but actually to come up with an answer when I see people with these dogs that wont bite, or guys buying dogs from crappy unreputable breeders, (often site unseen!) No one has come close to answering that


----------



## Matt Grosch

Chris Michalek said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqv88rE49_E




again, I dont see how this could be argued, since its all about your % of chance of ending up with a good dog (and a good guarantee) it is uncontested fact that the large operation with better dogs will be smarter than going with the small operation with crappy dogs

and it is completely irrelevant if the second guy one time got a dog better than one of the first guys lesser dogs


----------



## Jim Nash

Matt Grosch said:


> and, completely seriously, (her, PM, whatever) please point out anything Ive said that shouldnt have been said. I think Ive done a pretty good job of respectfully asking, and then responding to people that A) just like to argue, B) might have been offended at the notion, mistaken or not, that they did something wrong by spending less, or C) actually disagree, which I still dont understand since most people disagreeing are either disagreeing with something I didnt say, or claiming price is not a part of the equation. Since Im not here to stir trouble, but actually to come up with an answer when I see people with these dogs that wont bite, or guys buying dogs from crappy unreputable breeders, (often site unseen!) No one has come close to answering that



They have these crappy dogs because they wouldn't know a good dog if it came up and bit them in the ass . Some people will pay very little for these none biting crappers and some will pay alot for them . Either way their main problem is in the selection , not how much they paid for it .


----------



## Chris Michalek

Matt Grosch said:


> and, completely seriously, (her, PM, whatever) please point out anything Ive said that shouldnt have been said. I think Ive done a pretty good job of respectfully asking, and then responding to people that A) just like to argue, B) might have been offended at the notion, mistaken or not, that they did something wrong by spending less, or C) actually disagree, which I still dont understand since most people disagreeing are either disagreeing with something I didnt say, or claiming price is not a part of the equation. Since Im not here to stir trouble, but actually to come up with an answer when I see people with these dogs that wont bite, or guys buying dogs from crappy unreputable breeders, (often site unseen!) No one has come close to answering that



Matt, how much you believe is it the dog and how much is the training?


Genetics will only take you so far. Even though I wasn't serious when I said I would put my dog up against yours, I would do it in a heartbeat. Why? Because my dogs have all the basics of what is needed to train a dog to a high level, Nerve, Grip and Drive. I know roughly what you paid for your dog. All of the dogs in my club together don't cost as much as you paid for your dog yet I'd bet that any of them would out perform your dog on the field. How do I know? I know who you train with. That's not a dis on your group, but I know how they train vs how we train. At the end of the day it's training issue.

At your $10K threshold do you seriously think a dog will bite harder or run faster or go into dark buildings alone to fight a bad guy better than a "cheaper" dog with the same basic genetics and training?


----------



## David Frost

Matt Grosch said:


> again, I dont see how this could be argued, since its all about your % of chance of ending up with a good dog (and a good guarantee) it is uncontested fact that the large operation with better dogs will be smarter than going with the small operation with crappy dogs
> 
> and it is completely irrelevant if the second guy one time got a dog better than one of the first guys lesser dogs


Where are these "facts" you speak of. Show me the "facts". Facts are not competition scores. Don't care about competiton. Give me the name of your police trainer. I want to see what their dogs are doing that mine can't. I don't recall reading anything they've done that extraordinary. It would be interesting to hear their side of it. I think Monday, as a matter of fact, I'll put wire out to all AZ departments and ask their extraordinary experiences. I haven't noticed USPCA, NAPWDA, IPWDA, California Ceritification and other organiztions impletenting specific certification standards for their dogs, because they are so much better. Hmm, maybe they waive the certification, that must be it. If a selection criteria is used and the dog meets the selection criteria, it wouldn't matter if the dog was crapped by a turkey. It would meet the criteria and the expected outcome is very predictable. At least to those of us that make the selections and train the dogs. I can see where a lay-person would be confused. The number 3 bomb dog in the country (USPCA) in 2008 was an eleven year old dog that was rescued from a shelter. The dog was actually free, but I donated 100.00 to the shelter. He just retired at 13 years old. I have 4 single purpose drug dogs that are all million dollar plus money seizures and all members of the 100 kilo club. The only thing they have in common, they are rescues. Check out the website; http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBul...ll-use-cheap-police-k9s-17620/www.gapdogs.org 9 of the single purpose dogs you see on that website, under Gap dogs at work, are mine. All of the from dog pounds. It's selection. If the economy forces me to pay 10k for a dog, I will. If I can get that same quality dog, based on the selection test I use, for 7k I'll buy it instead. Along with being a trainer, I'm also the steward of state resources. I try to do the best I can for the least amount of money. Remember, except for a few cometic changes, a Toyota Camry is the same thing as a Lexus. The only difference is a few thousand dollars. 

DFrost

DFrost


----------



## Chris Michalek

Matt Grosch said:


> again, I dont see how this could be argued, since its all about your % of chance of ending up with a good dog (and a good guarantee) it is uncontested fact that the large operation with better dogs will be smarter than going with the small operation with crappy dogs
> 
> and it is completely irrelevant if the second guy one time got a dog better than one of the first guys lesser dogs


but is it really chance? I suppose if it's sight unseen then you're leaving the issue up to chance. 

it would be easy to label a few of the dogs in my club as crappy by your standards but most of them would be fine doing any other bite sport. BTW- I refer to my club because these are dogs that you can actually come and test yourself. You've decoyed for the police dogs and I'd bet you'd be mightily impressed with some of the "crappy" dogs in my group. A dog has it or it doesn't, that's the bottom line. Money doesn't make anything better.

You can spend all the money you want on training but if it's a shitty trainer then you're going to end up with a sub par dog.


----------



## Matt Grosch

Chris Michalek said:


> Matt, how much you believe is it the dog and how much is the training?
> 
> 
> Genetics will only take you so far. Even though I wasn't serious when I said I would put my dog up against yours, I would do it in a heartbeat. Why? Because my dogs have all the basics of what is needed to train a dog to a high level, Nerve, Grip and Drive. I know roughly what you paid for your dog. All of the dogs in my club together don't cost as much as you paid for your dog yet I'd bet that any of them would out perform your dog on the field. How do I know? I know who you train with. That's not a dis on your group, but I know how they train vs how we train. At the end of the day it's training issue.
> 
> At your $10K threshold do you seriously think a dog will bite harder or run faster or go into dark buildings alone to fight a bad guy better than a "cheaper" dog with the same basic genetics and training?



thats the point, you arent going to be able to get a dog with the same genetics and training for a lot less (still waiting for anyone to point out a kennel that shows otherwise)

Genetics, another topic, but it can only take you so far, BUT...more importantly, you cant go beyond them 

(I didnt pay that much for a green dog, was a pretty reasonable price too, that same as 2-3 puppies)

And, trainers, another discussion, and PM me if im wrong, but doesnt the credentials of mine blow those of yours out of the water? (that kinda does tie in, for a broker breeder, what have their dogs done, for a trainer, what have they accomplished....thats the only way to tell whats just talk and whats fact....just like fighting/martial arts)


----------



## Jim Nash

Matt Grosch said:


> again, I dont see how this could be argued, since its all about your % of chance of ending up with a good dog (and a good guarantee) it is uncontested fact that the large operation with better dogs will be smarter than going with the small operation with crappy dogs
> 
> and it is completely irrelevant if the second guy one time got a dog better than one of the first guys lesser dogs


So because they are a smaller operation they have crappy dogs ? There are vendors out there that have no interest in operating a large business . All 3 of our vendors are like that . Our main one is an ex K9 guy who is a Captain in a suburban police department . He has his small pool of clients and contacts overseas and goes over seas from time to time to select dogs to bring back and he's happy with that . The other 2 are very similar also . They too have access to looking at many dogs over seas , just like the larger operation vendors and from there it's up to their ability to find and bring good ones back .


----------



## Jim Nash

Chuck Zang said:


> Looking at Matt's post's it seems that he said he was looking at a 10K dog, ready to work the streets. If so, that would not be a bad price although I like the process of "building " the green dogs. I forget what my dept paid for a trained "ready to work" dog when they purchased it 7 years ago but we had some issues with it and still had to invest a good bit of training time into him to pass certification and that gets a little bit complicated because you don't know how/what was done to them previously. He was on the street more quickly than running a full school but not quite out of the box.
> 
> However, 10K just because he is titled KNPV would, in my opinion, be stupid if you think that makes him ready to work the street. A KNPV dog wouldn't be likely to pass any of the national organizations cert's, or any in-house cert's that I'm familiar with, without additional training or de-conditioning.
> 
> My dept, paid 6000 for the last two green dogs that we purchased. Selection was the key to our "success." There were some real $h***ers in the group that we looked at,and they all carried the same price tag.


Others can correct me if I'm wrong but Alderhorst charges $9600.00 for a titled or equivelent training(?) dog . But Alderhorst's Basic Patrol Dog training is around $4500.00 . 

I agree it would be stupid to believe a titled dog (in any sport venue) would be ready for the street .


----------



## Matt Grosch

Jim Nash said:


> So because they are a smaller operation they have crappy dogs ? There are vendors out there that have no interest in operating a large business . All 3 of our vendors are like that . Our main one is an ex K9 guy who is a Captain in a suburban police department . He has his small pool of clients and contacts overseas and goes over seas from time to time to select dogs to bring back and he's happy with that . The other 2 are very similar also . They too have access to looking at many dogs over seas , just like the larger operation vendors and from there it's up to their ability to find and bring good ones back .




no, but the smaller operation will have less selection, and if they arent looking at and getting the same trained dogs that are going to be around $10k that the other operation is, then they will also be of lower quality, so in that hypo that smaller broker would have less dogs that are also worse

its very possible that they could do the same thing on a smaller scale, but no reason to believe it would be a lot cheaper. and having 20 dogs to chose from instead of 2 would always be an advantage


----------



## Gerry Grimwood

Matt Grosch said:


> thats the point, you arent going to be able to get a dog with the same genetics and training for a lot less (still waiting for anyone to point out a kennel that shows otherwise)
> 
> Genetics, another topic, but it can only take you so far, BUT...more importantly, you cant go beyond them
> 
> (I didnt pay that much for a green dog, was a pretty reasonable price too, that same as 2-3 puppies)
> 
> And, trainers, another discussion, and PM me if im wrong, but doesnt the credentials of mine blow those of yours out of the water? (that kinda does tie in, for a broker breeder, what have their dogs done, for a trainer, what have they accomplished....thats the only way to tell whats just talk and whats fact....just like fighting/martial arts)


You often reference to martial arts, that's funny.

I'm curious about one thing, what does your dog do that blows all the others out of the water ??

You're a fireman right ?


----------



## Matt Grosch

David Frost said:


> Where are these "facts" you speak of. Show me the "facts". Facts are not competition scores. Don't care about competiton. Give me the name of your police trainer. I want to see what their dogs are doing that mine can't. I don't recall reading anything they've done that extraordinary. It would be interesting to hear their side of it. I think Monday, as a matter of fact, I'll put wire out to all AZ departments and ask their extraordinary experiences. I haven't noticed USPCA, NAPWDA, IPWDA, California Ceritification and other organiztions impletenting specific certification standards for their dogs, because they are so much better. Hmm, maybe they waive the certification, that must be it. If a selection criteria is used and the dog meets the selection criteria, it wouldn't matter if the dog was crapped by a turkey. It would meet the criteria and the expected outcome is very predictable. At least to those of us that make the selections and train the dogs. I can see where a lay-person would be confused. The number 3 bomb dog in the country (USPCA) in 2008 was an eleven year old dog that was rescued from a shelter. The dog was actually free, but I donated 100.00 to the shelter. He just retired at 13 years old. I have 4 single purpose drug dogs that are all million dollar plus money seizures and all members of the 100 kilo club. The only thing they have in common, they are rescues. Check out the website; http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBul...ll-use-cheap-police-k9s-17620/www.gapdogs.org 9 of the single purpose dogs you see on that website, under Gap dogs at work, are mine. All of the from dog pounds. It's selection. If the economy forces me to pay 10k for a dog, I will. If I can get that same quality dog, based on the selection test I use, for 7k I'll buy it instead. Along with being a trainer, I'm also the steward of state resources. I try to do the best I can for the least amount of money. Remember, except for a few cometic changes, a Toyota Camry is the same thing as a Lexus. The only difference is a few thousand dollars.
> 
> DFrost
> 
> DFrost



do you think you could achieve the same thing with dual purpose dogs?


----------



## Matt Grosch

Chris Michalek said:


> but is it really chance? I suppose if it's sight unseen then you're leaving the issue up to chance.
> 
> it would be easy to label a few of the dogs in my club as crappy by your standards but most of them would be fine doing any other bite sport. BTW- I refer to my club because these are dogs that you can actually come and test yourself. You've decoyed for the police dogs and I'd bet you'd be mightily impressed with some of the "crappy" dogs in my group. A dog has it or it doesn't, that's the bottom line. Money doesn't make anything better.
> 
> You can spend all the money you want on training but if it's a shitty trainer then you're going to end up with a sub par dog.




of course its chance since it cant be a certainty

you could have a 1% chance to a 99% chance of a dog having it, and I think you should do everything possible to get as high a chance as you can


----------



## Matt Grosch

^ furthermore the only 'crappy' dogs I have seen are the ones that wouldnt bite


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

I want matt to get to be the selection guy. That way we can charge 15000 for a dog and he will buy it, because he is bulldog boy stupid. SSSHHHHH don't tell him I said that. : )


----------



## Chris Michalek

Matt Grosch said:


> thats the point, you arent going to be able to get a dog with the same genetics and training for a lot less (still waiting for anyone to point out a kennel that shows otherwise)
> 
> Genetics, another topic, but it can only take you so far, BUT...more importantly, you cant go beyond them
> 
> (I didnt pay that much for a green dog, was a pretty reasonable price too, that same as 2-3 puppies)
> 
> And, trainers, another discussion, and PM me if im wrong, but doesnt the credentials of mine blow those of yours out of the water? (that kinda does tie in, for a broker breeder, what have their dogs done, for a trainer, what have they accomplished....thats the only way to tell whats just talk and whats fact....just like fighting/martial arts)





I've never played at Carnegie hall, yet I'm widely acknowledged as one of the best in the world at what I do for a living. Accomplishments don't tell the whole story. 

regarding your trainers.... how do you know? You seemed to have picked the sport first and they are the only PSA group in town. I focused on training with the best trainers in the area and if that puts me in schH then so be it. I'd rather participate in a sport that isn't my first choice and work than work in a sport I prefer but with lesser trainers.

I look at accomplishments this way. My training mentor has a pretty nice place doesn't he? Several acres in Phoenix along with horses worth over six figures is not cheap. Dog training paid for that. In fact, he's exactly the kind of guy you're speaking of Billy Bob trainer and breeder. None of his dogs ever sold for $10K but they are working police dogs. Hey isn't that what you want out of your dog? Just because you witnessed us playing schH doesn't mean that's all we do. You should come around more because you would have seen some of the Mesa, Phoenix and Gilbert guys training with us at times. Where do you think I met Chucky? Perhaps you wouldn't be so enthralled with one of the Phoenix K9s as it was simply a crazy lab they use for Bomb detection and isn't trained to bite. Yet he still came to us for training help. (When I say US, I don't mean me in anyway other than as a bystander) So maybe the trainers in my group haven't accomplished much in your eyes but they're not sport guys either.

So you're saying because the guy you train with won some PSA trial he's accomplished something? Do you know who came in 2nd? Please! this goes hand in hand with your line of thinking that a $10K dog is a better dog than one at $5K.

Like I said, come and take some bites from the dogs in my group. The difference in training will be apparent and you'll see that a good dog is a good dog regardless of money spent.


----------



## Matt Grosch

Gerry Grimwood said:


> You often reference to martial arts, that's funny.
> 
> I'm curious about one thing, what does your dog do that blows all the others out of the water ??
> 
> You're a fireman right ?




(boy, hard to keep the discussion on topic, like trying to debate politics)

1) yep, there does seem to be a strong correlation between fighting/martial arts and trainers, whats the funny part?

2) why would you get the idea that I think my dog blows others out of the water (unless you mean when I responded to chris saying that my trainer had much better accomplishments, that wasnt about the dogs)

3) yep, thats my main job


----------



## Chris Michalek

Matt Grosch said:


> ^ furthermore the only 'crappy' dogs I have seen are the ones that wouldnt bite



do you think that's a training issue or a genetic issue?


----------



## Jim Nash

Matt Grosch said:


> no, but the smaller operation will have less selection, and if they arent looking at and getting the same trained dogs that are going to be around $10k that the other operation is, then they will also be of lower quality, so in that hypo that smaller broker would have less dogs that are also worse
> 
> its very possible that they could do the same thing on a smaller scale, but no reason to believe it would be a lot cheaper. and having 20 dogs to chose from instead of 2 would always be an advantage


Reguardless if it a large or small scale operation they all go over and look at dogs . I think you are insinuating that Dave has the market cornered in the availabilty of looking at and getting good dogs . If that's the case you're wrong because I've seen his dogs and know others , even smaller scale vendors are getting the same calibre dogs . 

If you're not insinuating that then you must realize all the vendors are doing the same thing , going over seas and looking at alot of dogs and bringing the ones they think are good back . 

Once again it's in the selection . 

Vendors that know good dogs will bring them back and sell them for what they think they can get for them . 

Vendors that bring back crappy dogs will bring them back and sell them for what they can get for them . 


Now that price will vary from vendor to vendor for a variety of reasons . Some being location , competition from other vendors , upkeep , number of returns or replacements they've incurred during that period for health or other reasons , making enough just to stay in business , to name a few .


----------



## Matt Grosch

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I want matt to get to be the selection guy. That way we can charge 15000 for a dog and he will buy it, because he is bulldog boy stupid. SSSHHHHH don't tell him I said that. : )




c'mon, give me something to work with....Ive seen enough of your posts to know that you are capable of much better than this, because I like your style I will give you the benefit of the doubt and say you've been drinking, 


but, I know you have some experience, have you bought titled/trained dogs? and if so, how much?


----------



## David Frost

Matt Grosch said:


> do you think you could achieve the same thing with dual purpose dogs?




If I find one that meets the selection criteria, yes. Without question. It's what I've been saying, it's all in the selection. 

DFrost


----------



## Chris Michalek

Matt Grosch said:


> (boy, hard to keep the discussion on topic, like trying to debate politics)
> 
> 
> 2) why would you get the idea that I think my dog blows others out of the water (unless you mean when I responded to chris saying that my trainer had much better accomplishments, that wasnt about the dogs)



real working dog folk don't give a shit about accomplishments. Does the dog bite and will it stay in the fight? That's what matters. With all of the dog training accomplishments your trainer has doesn't he have a day job somewhere and train dogs in the morning and on weekends?

There is a difference between sport and real world.


----------



## Matt Grosch

Chris, wayyyyy off, pm me ur email again and I can clarity ( I was looking for local trainers, he was recommended by some police k9 officers, and then found out he has a good background, and regarding the 'way we train' it pretty much OJ, Ellis, IvanB stuff and tight with some of the top clubs in the west, like utah)


----------



## Matt Grosch

Chris Michalek said:


> do you think that's a training issue or a genetic issue?




both, but more so genetics, and more for out of interest than to prove a point, I will say that they are often GSD's


----------



## Matt Grosch

Jim Nash said:


> Reguardless if it a large or small scale operation they all go over and look at dogs . I think you are insinuating that Dave has the market cornered in the availabilty of looking at and getting good dogs . If that's the case you're wrong because I've seen his dogs and know others , even smaller scale vendors are getting the same calibre dogs .
> 
> If you're not insinuating that then you must realize all the vendors are doing the same thing , going over seas and looking at alot of dogs and bringing the ones they think are good back .
> 
> Once again it's in the selection .
> 
> Vendors that know good dogs will bring them back and sell them for what they think they can get for them .
> 
> Vendors that bring back crappy dogs will bring them back and sell them for what they can get for them .
> 
> 
> Now that price will vary from vendor to vendor for a variety of reasons . Some being location , competition from other vendors , upkeep , number of returns or replacements they've incurred during that period for health or other reasons , making enough just to stay in business , to name a few .




So out of these guys that are all doing the same thing, how much cheaper can they go (and still make a profit)? It cant be that much


----------



## David Frost

Matt Grosch said:


> ( I was looking for local trainers, he was recommended by some police k9 officers, and then found out he has a good background, and regarding the 'way we train' it pretty much OJ, Ellis, IvanB stuff and tight with some of the top clubs in the west, like utah)




I can just hear that conversation; Good gawd give him Herman's name. I owe him one any way and it seems he's just looking to play dog. Herman gets into that sport crap. 

DFrost


----------



## Matt Grosch

David Frost said:


> If I find one that meets the selection criteria, yes. Without question. It's what I've been saying, it's all in the selection.
> 
> DFrost



and my point is, what are your odds of succeeding if you were looking for a good working healthy dual purpose k9 at shelters vs the brokers ive mentioned (if its less, than proves price matters) 


I would have never said its impossible


but also, this only somewhat relates since it isnt a green/untrained dog discussion, I know those are less, its about trained dogs. And if you wanted a good single purpose detection dog, Id think you would end up paying some money


----------



## Matt Grosch

Chris Michalek said:


> real working dog folk don't give a shit about accomplishments. Does the dog bite and will it stay in the fight? That's what matters. With all of the dog training accomplishments your trainer has doesn't he have a day job somewhere and train dogs in the morning and on weekends?
> 
> There is a difference between sport and real world.





it definitely matters, for dogs and everything else


if you were just starting to learn to play music and there were two instructors, one that had a track record of success, and one that didnt, the choice would be obvious....

it there was a personal trainer that had many clients when contests and an old lady trainer at the ymca that looks like she never worked out, who would people go to

if one gym produced champion fighters, and they other one never has.....


it could go on and on... the proof is in the results


----------



## Matt Grosch

I will check back later, Im running late for my nap and debating WWII stuff on another thread that Ive been neglecting. (Usually its me debating liberals about islam, terrorism, politics, police and war....so Im used to being 1 vs 20 )


----------



## Chris Michalek

Matt Grosch said:


> it definitely matters, for dogs and everything else
> 
> 
> if you were just starting to learn to play music and there were two instructors, one that had a track record of success, and one that didnt, the choice would be obvious....
> 
> it there was a personal trainer that had many clients when contests and an old lady trainer at the ymca that looks like she never worked out, who would people go to
> 
> if one gym produced champion fighters, and they other one never has.....
> 
> 
> it could go on and on... the proof is in the results



I don't agree. I wouldn't base anything on labels. I'm not going to post it but there are a few videos of me playing a show with another harmonica player. He's been to Carnegie Hall a few times, has tracked for several movies and he makes a minimum of $15000 per performance. I haven't done any of that but when you listen to the both of us playing it's clear which one is the better player.

Again, your trainer vs mine. A guy who has made his sole living from training, breeding and selling dogs working dogs vs a sport guy who has titled a dog in PSA. 

PSA is a sport Matt. It's a pastime for G and how many years has he been training? For my mentor, it's what he has done for over 25 years and has supported his family with it. That's an accomplishment. Titling a dog is nothing more than a feather in the ole cap. 


You're right the proof is in the results.


----------



## Matt Grosch

Chris Michalek said:


> I don't agree. I wouldn't base anything on labels. I'm not going to post it but there are a few videos of me playing a show with another harmonica player. He's been to Carnegie Hall a few times, has tracked for several movies and he makes a minimum of $15000 per performance. I haven't done any of that but when you listen to the both of us playing it's clear which one is the better player.
> 
> Again, your trainer vs mine. A guy who has made his sole living from training, breeding and selling dogs working dogs vs a sport guy who has titled a dog in PSA.
> 
> PSA is a sport Matt. It's a pastime for G and how many years has he been training? For my mentor, it's what he has done for over 25 years and has supported his family with it. That's an accomplishment. Titling a dog is nothing more than a feather in the ole cap.
> 
> 
> You're right the proof is in the results.



Yeah, but (unless they are pd) a non-sport, personal protection trainer has always been a bit of a red flag to me, just like Rex-Kwan-Do guys talking about their stuff being to deadly so they can never compete or prove it, just trust them......its the best

any my goals are to do some (suit) trials and get him his k9 cert, so im working with the guys that will best help me do that


----------



## Nicole Stark

Matt Grosch said:


> just like Rex-Kwan-Do guys talking about their stuff being to deadly so they can never compete or prove it, just trust them......its the best


From all detection training done in one week to Jeff calling you by my nickname, and now onto Rex-Kwan-Do comparisons, this thread really can't get any better. Or could it? :-k


----------



## David Frost

Matt Grosch said:


> and my point is, what are your odds of succeeding if you were looking for a good working healthy dual purpose k9 at shelters vs the brokers ive mentioned (if its less, than proves price matters)
> 
> 
> I would have never said its impossible
> 
> 
> but also, this only somewhat relates since it isnt a green/untrained dog discussion, I know those are less, its about trained dogs.


Then I'm definately out of the discussion. I don't buy trained dogs. 

DFrost


----------



## Jim Nash

Matt Grosch said:


> So out of these guys that are all doing the same thing, how much cheaper can they go (and still make a profit)? It cant be that much


Read my last post . It depends and I gave several reasons why . 

As for your version of trained . Is it just a titled dog or is it one with training to actually prepare it for patrol work ? 

If I'm doing my math right then a titled Alderhorst dog $9600.00 + with basic patrol training $4200.00 = is going to be a bit more $13,800.00 .


We get titled dogs from time to time and they go through the same basic patrl dog course the green ones do . The title don't even make them near ready for the streets.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: c'mon, give me something to work with....Ive seen enough of your posts to know that you are capable of much better than this, because I like your style I will give you the benefit of the doubt and say you've been drinking

I don't drink, but you are boring the everlovin shit out of me. People can do what they want to me, kick me, beat me, but just don't bore me.


----------



## Jim Nash

Vohne Liche 

Selection tested $7000.00 (untitled) basically a green dog
 " " $10,0000.00 (titled)

untitled $10,000.00 (pretrained)
titled $11,500.00 (pretrained)

untitled $11,000.00 (pretrained/w class)
titled $12,500.00 (pretrained/ class)


----------



## Gerry Grimwood

Matt Grosch said:


> 2) why would you get the idea that I think my dog blows others out of the water (unless you mean when I responded to chris saying that my trainer had much better accomplishments, that wasnt about the dogs)


My mistake, it all got cloudy after the 10th page.


----------



## Jim Nash

Matt Grosch said:


> and my point is, what are your odds of succeeding if you were looking for a good working healthy dual purpose k9 at shelters vs the brokers ive mentioned (if its less, than proves price matters)
> 
> 
> I would have never said its impossible
> 
> 
> but also, this only somewhat relates since it isnt a green/untrained dog discussion, I know those are less, its about trained dogs. And if you wanted a good single purpose detection dog, Id think you would end up paying some money



I'll answer that one . We used to do the donated , shelter dog thing over a decade ago . Every year we looked at over 100 dogs just to get 10-12 candidates . 

Now factoring in all the things that it took to get those 10-12 dogs it just wasn't cost effective because those dogs were way more expensive in the long run then getting them from a vendor . 

See the correlation , more expensive doesn't equate to better and once again the most important thing is selection .

Some of these big vendors that you speak of don't actually get all of their dogs from overseas either . They've been known to take dogs that others have shown up at the kennel with and if it has what it takes to do the job , even though it doesn't have the pedigree or title , they will buy it and sell it .


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Hell Jim, over a decade ago, didn't your TD think chaining dogs up outside was a good idea ? :twisted::twisted::twisted::twisted::twisted::twisted:


----------



## Jim Nash

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Hell Jim, over a decade ago, didn't your TD think chaining dogs up outside was a good idea ? :twisted::twisted::twisted::twisted::twisted::twisted:


Wrong police department .


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

How many towns over ?


----------



## Jim Nash

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> How many towns over ?



1


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

My geography grows worse with age. I got about 20 years and I will have regressed to Matt's thought processes.


----------



## Jim Nash

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> My geography grows worse with age. I got about 20 years and I will have regressed to Matt's thought processes.


That was when they just started switching over to bought dogs and more Mals and Dutchies then GSDs . They listened to a new guy with prior hunting dog training experiance on that deal . They've improved alot since then .


----------



## Howard Knauf

A friend of mine got his new partner last year from a Florida vendor. One of the dogs he was looking at was 9K I believe. The vendor had the dog titled a week or so later and the price went to 12K. 

Did the dog get dramatically better in those 2 weeks? I seriously doubt it. Just because he was titled the vendor made another 3 grand. The dog still had to go through a 400 hr patrol school before working the road.


Another very well known vendor in an East central U.S. state sold a dog with an uber serious slick floor issue. The dog had one full school already and was washed by the original agency. The vendor did let the new dept know about the issue but he still sold a genetically broken dog to a PD. I have two issues with this deal. First....the dumbass who decided to buy this dog should have been keelhauled....secondly, WTF is this vendor even doing offering this dog as a police dog!?? That dog was a liability to any human who got near it. It was a fear biter and a cur.

I've tested and/or worked with six dogs from this same vendor. Four were complete shit for police work. Those same four went to other unsuspecting agencies I hear(cha-ching). Two turned out OK but they sure aint no major balls of fire.

I've heard other disconcerting stories about these super mega kennels Matt speaks of. If ya got 40 dogs in your kennels not all of them are great, that's a fact. Doesn't keep most kennel owners from asking top dollar though. IMO it's BS that some dogs are even allowed to be tested by PDs. They should be sold as sport dogs instead so nobody gets killed when they trust their lives to a substandard animal.

I'm not saying that all vendors are like the ones I described. The honest ones just don't eat as well because they sell the dogs for what they are really worth because they have a conscious. The honest ones have to feed their dogs like everyone else, only they do it for longer if they can't dump an unqualified dog on unsuspecting/inexperienced people.

In '01 (pe-9/11) my Czech import with KNPV background and no pedigree or title was bought for 4,500....that's a thousand more than we usually paid for GOOD dogs back then. The PD balked at the price but the deal was made anyway. Was he so much better than my 3,500 dollar previous partner? Not really. The extra money sure didn't make him any better. Made me fell good though cause I had the most expensive dog on the unit.:-D Maybe this is what this is all about, big boy toys. BTW, these weren't green dogs at those prices. 

I know prices have gone up. I see it as price gouging and opportunistic behaviour on damn near everyone's part, here and abroad.

In Al Gore's words "What's up should be down, and what's down should be up"


----------



## Matt Grosch

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> My geography grows worse with age. I got about 20 years and I will have regressed to Matt's thought processes.




c'mon, you may have the years of experience, but we both know I am literally 5,000 times smarter than you are, but you are taller, then again Im much better looking............we all have different strengths


----------



## Matt Grosch

^^ that should have been my #2 question, how can dept's buy the dogs site unseen, not do good testing, not care if issues are made known to them....etc


its mind bottling


----------



## Jim Nash

Matt Grosch said:


> ^^ that should have been my #2 question, how can dept's buy the dogs site unseen, not do good testing, not care if issues are made known to them....etc
> 
> 
> its mind bottling



For the same reason some will buy a dog because it's cheap and others will buy one because it's expensive . THEY DON'T KNOW ANY BETTER .

The ones who do know it's about the dog not the price .


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: but we both know I am literally 5,000 times smarter than you are.

Not on your best day. Lawyers just talk a lot, as we have seen on this thread. LOL Besides, my opinion of lawyers is not really that high. You get a few bonus points for being a fireman, but that really just proves that you are not that smart.


----------



## Amy Swaby

At this point I'm just kicking back with my bottle of todhunter blackberry brandy. I made a drinking game ruleset and started back from page one. I had to stop because I didn't want to finish all my brandy in one night.

Keep going though I'll start again tomorrow, this stuff is beautiful.


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen

All that yapping about money: a good dog is a good dog: if a mutt from the pound is as qualified as a 10 G dog, I know who i'll choose \\/\\/


----------



## Jerry Lyda

Thanks Selena, that's my point.


----------



## Mike Scheiber

Howard Knauf said:


> I've heard other disconcerting stories about these super mega kennels Matt speaks of. If ya got 40 dogs in your kennels not all of them are great, that's a fact. Doesn't keep most kennel owners from asking top dollar though. IMO it's BS that some dogs are even allowed to be tested by PDs. They should be sold as sport dogs instead so nobody gets killed when they trust their lives to a substandard animal.
> ve dog on the unit.:-D Maybe this is what this is all about, big boy toys. BTW, these weren't green dogs at those prices.


What makes you think we want or can do any thing with the shitters like I said earlier don't kid your self if you think the cream hasn't been skimmed several times before you get the milk


----------



## Don Turnipseed

I have talked to local depts. in the past. Selection is indeed what it is about because I offered dogs for free. They were not so interested in quality as they were in a maintenance free dog.....as in no clipping. I never even got past what the breed was. Mainenance free was the priority....so yes Matt selection is critical. LOL


----------



## Matt Grosch

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: but we both know I am literally 5,000 times smarter than you are.
> 
> Not on your best day. Lawyers just talk a lot, as we have seen on this thread. LOL Besides, my opinion of lawyers is not really that high. You get a few bonus points for being a fireman, but that really just proves that you are not that smart.




at least we agree on the better looking part


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

That is the easiest part to agree on.


----------



## Jim Nash

Don Turnipseed said:


> I have talked to local depts. in the past. Selection is indeed what it is about because I offered dogs for free. They were not so interested in quality as they were in a maintenance free dog.....as in no clipping. I never even got past what the breed was. Mainenance free was the priority....so yes Matt selection is critical. LOL


WTF kind of dogs have they been getting that are maintainance free. They must really cost alot !


----------



## Connie Sutherland

What does "mind bottling" mean?

Is it like drinking to destroy brain cells?


----------



## Ashley Campbell

Connie Sutherland said:


> What does "mind bottling" mean?
> 
> Is it like drinking to destroy brain cells?


I think it's something like this:


----------



## Connie Sutherland

AH-HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

I had JUST finished posting a description of that scene in the Mod Forum when you posted this picture!

Talk about two (abnormal) minds with but a single thought ..... :lol: :lol:


----------



## Nicole Stark

Connie Sutherland said:


> What does "mind bottling" mean?
> 
> Is it like drinking to destroy brain cells?


Don't you know? It's Matt's offering of proof that he's something like 5,000 times smarter than Jeff. That, and the topic of this discussion of course.


----------



## David Frost

good old Abby Normal.

DFrost


----------



## Harry Keely

Connie Sutherland said:


> AH-HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
> 
> I had JUST finished posting a description of that scene in the Mod Forum when you posted this picture!
> 
> Talk about two (abnormal) minds with but a single thought ..... :lol: :lol:


I think everybody here on this forum has a abnormal mind:lol:


----------



## mike suttle

I have been away from this forum for a week doing our 5 day seminar. We finished the seminar yesterday and I come on here today and it looks like I missed a lot on this thread.

I did not read most of this thread, but I will add my 2 cents on this subject: I have sold green dogs for $10,000 and even more. And I have sold even better dogs for $6500. In many cases it is more than just the price I have in the dog that determines what I need to sell it for. For example, if I raise a dog that was born at my house and prepare it for the US Customs selection test then I know that dog is worth at least $8,000 (public record, look it up) if it goes to Customs. Now that puppy may have only cost me $1500 to raise it, but if it is worth $8,000 then that is what I will sell it for. One reason is this.....if the dog should happen to get washed out and I have to replace it with a dog of similar drive and character, the replacement dog may very well cost me $7000 to get here.
As a vendor I have to stand behind every dog I sell for 2 years. If I raise a puppy and only have $1500 in him, and I sell him to a department for $3000 and 6 months later he gets returned for biting his handler (or whatever reason) and now they want a replacement of the same quality. What if the replacement they want cost me $7000 to get here. Then I loose $4000 on that deal. I sell a dog for what the market is paying, that way if I have to replace it I dont loose money.
And if I have to stand behind it for 2 years then it has to be worth it for me. And if I am going to invest that much of my money then I need to get a return on that investment.
Now going back to the price of dogs. Like I said I have sold even better dogs for $6500, these were sometimes dogs that were not strong metal retrievers, but were easier to train to find target odor than the high intensity crazy metal dogs, but because they were not metal dogs, the market only pays a certain price. 
Sometimes I have to pay $8000 to buy a dog to resell, sometimes I get great ones for $2500, but the market price is what it is.
If someone sells you a gold Rolex for $250 and you later find out it is worth $50,000 are you going to sell it for $500 and make the $250 profit on it?
But if you can buy a watch for $250 and you find out that it is bringing $500 on the market, then you will likely sell it for that price if you have the chance.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: As a vendor I have to stand behind every dog I sell for 2 years

You are ****ing kidding me. For what ? I have no problem with replacing a dog for health reason, but because some dept has no idea how to train? **** them, the price just jumped. I don't know how you do it.


----------



## Jim Nash

mike suttle said:


> I have been away from this forum for a week doing our 5 day seminar. We finished the seminar yesterday and I come on here today and it looks like I missed a lot on this thread.
> 
> I did not read most of this thread, but I will add my 2 cents on this subject: I have sold green dogs for $10,000 and even more. And I have sold even better dogs for $6500. In many cases it is more than just the price I have in the dog that determines what I need to sell it for. For example, if I raise a dog that was born at my house and prepare it for the US Customs selection test then I know that dog is worth at least $8,000 (public record, look it up) if it goes to Customs. Now that puppy may have only cost me $1500 to raise it, but if it is worth $8,000 then that is what I will sell it for. One reason is this.....if the dog should happen to get washed out and I have to replace it with a dog of similar drive and character, the replacement dog may very well cost me $7000 to get here.
> As a vendor I have to stand behind every dog I sell for 2 years. If I raise a puppy and only have $1500 in him, and I sell him to a department for $3000 and 6 months later he gets returned for biting his handler (or whatever reason) and now they want a replacement of the same quality. What if the replacement they want cost me $7000 to get here. Then I loose $4000 on that deal. I sell a dog for what the market is paying, that way if I have to replace it I dont loose money.
> And if I have to stand behind it for 2 years then it has to be worth it for me. And if I am going to invest that much of my money then I need to get a return on that investment.
> Now going back to the price of dogs. Like I said I have sold even better dogs for $6500, these were sometimes dogs that were not strong metal retrievers, but were easier to train to find target odor than the high intensity crazy metal dogs, but because they were not metal dogs, the market only pays a certain price.
> Sometimes I have to pay $8000 to buy a dog to resell, sometimes I get great ones for $2500, but the market price is what it is.
> If someone sells you a gold Rolex for $250 and you later find out it is worth $50,000 are you going to sell it for $500 and make the $250 profit on it?
> But if you can buy a watch for $250 and you find out that it is bringing $500 on the market, then you will likely sell it for that price if you have the chance.



It's a tough business to have that's for sure . I totally agree with why you have to do what you have to do .

Our vendors run things the same way except they don't raise or deal with puppies . These dogs are not clones and it's impossible to sell the exact same calibre dog at the same price . Having a dog that let's say costs $7000 that means you paid $7000 for a dog with with a certain history along with the usual guarantees and belief the vendor has in good faith supplied you with a dog that he/she thinks will fill the role you want it for . They may not however all be the exact same calibre dog at $7000 though . That $7000.00 dog comes out of a pool of many different dogs with the same asking price . 

Of the 12 or so dogs we pay the same price for you are going to get varied combinations of dogs in quality . 

I watched our main vendor age before my eyes one year when we had alot more returns then usual . We had the usual 1-3 that get washed because they just don't have it but we also had alot of dogs coming down with health problems during our class . He ran out of replacements and we had to work out deals between him and 1 of our other vendors to get dogs . Doing the math he had to have lost a bunch of money that year . 

But it's a trade off for him because he can usually make a living from us and knows we aren't going to screw up dogs and ask for a replacement . He was a handler back in the day and actually went through our school . Before my time . He knows how we train and knows the training staff well . I'm sure that's why he keeps his business relatively small . More dogs just means more problems .


----------



## Jim Nash

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: As a vendor I have to stand behind every dog I sell for 2 years
> 
> You are ****ing kidding me. For what ? I have no problem with replacing a dog for health reason, but because some dept has no idea how to train? **** them, the price just jumped. I don't know how you do it.


Yep that's a tough situation for a vendor . Is the dog a screw up or did they screw up the dog ? But it's pretty much an industry standard and if the return policy wasn't you would see a big change in the prices . IMO . 

The flip side of it is this and I know you've seen it . There are many PSDs out there that shouldn't be . Many were bought from vendors and not returned . 

We've had vendors we tried out for a short time(1-2 dogs at first) and got rid of after returning dogs , having trouble getting replacements and then seeing the dogs we returned working for some other department in another state .

We don't return them for nit picky stuff either . We are talking serious confidence issues , be it environmental or with searching and engaging the badguy .

In order to get a good dog you have to either know what you are looking for or get in touch with someone who does . Many times this is a vendor or a K9 handler or trainer that directs them to a vendor . 

Problem for some is if they don't have anyone to help them and they don't even know what to look for in the first place . So if they get a bad dog from a dishonest vendor , they simply don't know they have a bad dog . It bites a sleeve or suit ok so it must be able to bite for real and like many K9 units they may never get fully tested out on the street and if they do and the dog fails the vendor will usually do a little "work" with the dog and tell the officer it's fixed and not knowing any better he/she will believe them . 

For the record my experiance the large scale vendors I have named in this discussion has been good . They have a good reputation and I haven't seen and bad dog from them . They aren't perfect though noone is . But I have been around the country at different training seminars and events and have seen dogs from other large scale well known vendors that charge similar prices and have a "good" reputation when I talked to handlers that have gotten dogs from them . 

Problem was when I saw the dogs these handlers had that were giving the references , there dogs sucked and the more dogs I saw from these vendors the more sucky dogs I saw . But they all had good things to say about their dogs . 

That's why I cringe when I hear Matt over simplifying this price , large scale vendor thing . Money isn't anywhere near the most important indicators of a good dog. It's knowing what a good dog is and finding them .


----------



## Maureen A Osborn

What are the main breeds the PD's are requesting, basically the GSD's, DS, and Mals? Do they ever look for "off" breeds? If so, what is their reasoning? Have any "vendors"(or just regular people) just given you dogs to train and they ended up being pretty decent PSD's and you were able to sell them? Very interesting stuff!


----------



## Jim Nash

Maureen A Osborn said:


> What are the main breeds the PD's are requesting, basically the GSD's, DS, and Mals? Do they ever look for "off" breeds? If so, what is their reasoning? Have any "vendors"(or just regular people) just given you dogs to train and they ended up being pretty decent PSD's and you were able to sell them? Very interesting stuff!


That's basically it . Each of the agencies we train and get dogs for have their own preference of those 3 they want us to get them . We've had no requests specifically for off breeds so far .

In my 13 years here we've also trained Rotts and 3 French Beurcerouns(sp/sorry) for patrol . 2 worked out 1 didn't . I've also a k9 unit in my area with a BRT and another with a Terv(?) those longhaired Mal looking things anyways. 

I can tell you if an off breed that will work comes our way and has what it takes we wouldn't pass on it .


----------



## Maureen A Osborn

Thanks Jim, very interesting stuff that I had no clue about. I like the BRT's a lot(minus the hair, LOL), kinda like Bouviers, but even harder. I've never seen a Belgian Tervuren doing PSD, thats a first.


----------



## Jim Nash

Maureen A Osborn said:


> Thanks Jim, very interesting stuff that I had no clue about. I like the BRT's a lot(minus the hair, LOL), kinda like Bouviers, but even harder. I've never seen a Belgian Tervuren doing PSD, thats a first.



The Terv I never saw work so I don't know how good it was . The BRT was a strong good looking dog . I only saw it do bitework , downfield bites and handler protection stuff and it looked good . Not sure how it was with search work or the rest of the stuff needed to be a PSD though .

The Beaucerouns I believe we were approached by someone with them and gave them a look and descided they were worth a try . The one we had kept for our department was the only dog I've ever seen that I believed had manic depression . I wrked with it alot and never knew what dog I was ging to be encountering . 1 minute he'd be ready to go and knock me on my butt the next he'd be cowering . We ended up washing him . The other 2 were much better .


----------



## Maureen A Osborn

Many years ago, before the BRT went AKC and were still at Rare Breed Shows, I got to meet a few, very protective of their handlers. They are definately one breed I dont see becoming popular despite going AKC, way too tough for most people to be able to handle.


----------



## Jim Nash

Maureen A Osborn said:


> Many years ago, before the BRT went AKC and were still at Rare Breed Shows, I got to meet a few, very protective of their handlers. They are definately one breed I dont see becoming popular despite going AKC, way too tough for most people to be able to handle.



The BRT I saw sure looked tough but I always refrain from making a judgement until I see other things , like how it goes out searching
for badguys . I've seen my fair share of dogs that look good biting but when called upon to go out and search away from the handler they fall apart .


----------



## Maureen A Osborn

Jim Nash said:


> The BRT I saw sure looked tough but I always refrain from making a judgement until I see other things , like how it goes out searching
> for badguys . I've seen my fair share of dogs that look good biting but when called upon to go out and search away from the handler they fall apart .


THat's true...I tend to forget about the offensive side to PSD vs the defensive side only of PP dogs.


----------



## Matt Grosch

Connie Sutherland said:


> What does "mind bottling" mean?
> 
> Is it like drinking to destroy brain cells?




from will ferrell in 'blades of glory'


----------



## Matt Grosch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWkNPrXkvRA


----------



## jack van strien

Years ago in holland it was not so easy to get rid of a dog who was a KNPV wash out,you had to look for a place and give them away for free.
Then the USA market opened up and they basicly took anything willing to retrieve a tennis ball.Later they added the dog had to bite a sleeve,some training with a rattle stick and off they went.
Even in Holland it is not so easy to find a green dog suitable for KNPV,if there is a good one some one has seen it already and the dog is spoken for.
I dont think there is a big interest among trainers in Holland for a dog that is already partially trained,why would you get rid of a good dog?Of course there are a few lucky people out there who get great dogs because some handler can not deal with the dog or a pet that takes over the household.
I would be really cautious about buying a dog with (some) training.
Maybe some one should start a new thread,
Surprised that police departments will use unqualified handlers!


----------



## Howard Knauf

90% of new handlers are unqualified, thats why they get training just like a green dog. It's when they don't progress over time that they should be ousted. Unfortunately there are so many variables dealing with people protected by laws, unions and politics that retain poor handlers.

Not to be off topic in the above response as most all of the above can be applied to dogs as well.


----------



## Loring Cox

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: As a vendor I have to stand behind every dog I sell for 2 years
> 
> You are ****ing kidding me. For what ? I have no problem with replacing a dog for health reason, but because some dept has no idea how to train? **** them, the price just jumped. I don't know how you do it.


Some things can not be trained Jeff. A dog who showed well on the field but fails repeatedly on the street is "usually" not a training issue. A dog's ability to actually search for and bite a human being sometimes can't be judged accurately in training...

So if my Dept contracted you to be our trainer and advisor, which of the two vendors would you choose to select a dog from? 

A. Vendor has a one year health guarantee and an unlimited workability guarantee.
B. Vendor has a four MONTH health guarantee and no workability guarantee.

Even if vendor A is costs 1k more than B, I hope you can see it is still a better investment.


----------



## Harry Keely

Maureen A Osborn said:


> What are the main breeds the PD's are requesting, basically the GSD's, DS, and Mals? Do they ever look for "off" breeds? If so, what is their reasoning? Have any "vendors"(or just regular people) just given you dogs to train and they ended up being pretty decent PSD's and you were able to sell them? Very interesting stuff!


Yea defently those three for either dual or single, but also alot of departments for single purpose use the labs, blood hounds & red bones. There in places such as bigger cities in all the states that most wouldn't believe such as NYC which has blood hounds for the man tracking.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: So if my Dept contracted you to be our trainer and advisor, which of the two vendors would you choose to select a dog from? 

A. Vendor has a one year health guarantee and an unlimited workability guarantee.
B. Vendor has a four MONTH health guarantee and no workability guarantee.

I doubt that I would be looking at a guarantee.


----------



## Matt Grosch

these are the prices I had heard for vohn liche


http://www.azcentral.com/community/...ckeye-avondale-tolleson-police-k-9-teams.html


----------



## Guest

Matt Grosch said:


> these are the prices I had heard for vohn liche
> 
> 
> http://www.azcentral.com/community/...ckeye-avondale-tolleson-police-k-9-teams.html


 
*FROM THEIR WEBSITE*

*Narcotic Detector Dogs*

*Single Purpose Narcotic Detector Dog**Dual Purpose Narcotic Detector Dog* UntitledTitled*Selection Tested*$5,000*Selection Tested*$7,000$10,000 *Pre-Titled Selection Tested*$8,000 *Pre-trained*$7,000*Pre-trained*$10,000$12,000*Pre-trained and Class*$8,000*Pre-trained and Class*$12,000$14,000*Class Only*$4,000*Class Only*$4,500**Note: Can add tracking to Single Purpose K-9 for additional $1,000.00* 


**Note: Can add tracking to Single Purpose K-9 for additional $1,000.00* *Explosive Detector Dogs*

*Single Purpose Explosive Detector Dog**Dual Purpose Explosive Detector Dog* *Untitled**Titled**Selection Tested*$5,000*Selection Tested*$7,000$10,000 *Pre-Titled Selection Tested*$8,000 *Pre-trained*$8,000*Pre-trained*$12,000$14,000*Pre-trained and Class*$10,000*Pre-trained and Class*$14,000$16,000*Class Only*$4,000*Class Only*$4,500


**Note: Can add tracking to Single Purpose K-9 for additional $1,000.00**Cadaver Dogs*

*Police Service Dogs*

*Untitled**Titled* *Untitled**Selection Tested*$7,000$10,000*Selection Tested*$5,000*Pre-Titled Selection Tested*$8,000 *Pre-trained*$8,000*Pre-trained*$10,000$11,500*Pre-trained and Class*$9,500*Pre-trained and Class*$11,000$12,500 *Class Only*$4,000


All Courses include one year of unlimited maintenance training. At your one-year anniversary date we offer a re-certification course @ the cost of $ 200.00 per day. NOTE: These prices do not include lodging. Note: All dogs come with a comprehensive guarantee for both health and street workability. Prices have changed due to the decrease of the U. S. dollar in Europe.


----------



## Matt Grosch

for the record I can see how my orig post got off on the wrong track and wasnt as clear as it could have been, green dogs, etc, my mistake for thinking what I meant was obvious


----------



## Matt Grosch

but....if Jeff and I every teamed up and joined forces, I think we would run things





*mel gibson on his shoulders would be more accurate, but couldnt find a picture of that


----------



## Chris McDonald

Matt Grosch said:


> for the record I can see how my orig post got off on the wrong track and wasnt as clear as it could have been, green dogs, etc, my mistake for thinking what I meant was obvious


I didn’t read it all… but for the record do realize it took you 25 pages to figure this out?


----------



## Matt Grosch

or the first time I clarified that I was talking about trained, non-green dogs


----------



## Jim Nash

Matt Grosch said:


> or the first time I clarified that I was talking about trained, non-green dogs


Doesn't matter . You still don't get it . Probably never will .


----------



## Matt Grosch

uh......so what do you think the price range is for trained/mature dogs?


----------



## Jim Nash

Matt Grosch said:


> uh......so what do you think the price range is for trained/mature dogs?



Doesn't matter because what you've been told over and over again by people with actual experiance is that the price isn't near as important as you think it is . 

Matt , you're like many other new PIA handlers who come into dog training that do a lot of studying , through books , videos , training directors , other handlers and even the internet and WAM they all of a sudden have as much knowledge as the folks they "learned" from , who had to actually have had hands on experiance for several years with dogs to learn what they passed on to you . These new handlers quickly learn the lingo and form strong opinions based mostly on what they have heard others say , read or saw in a video or siminar .

Most of these types are very smart , show alot of promise initially and initially have some success with their dogs . The problem arises when something comes up outside their realm of learning . They have formed such strong opinions so quickly and have learned the lingo well enough to defend their position "in theory" that they start closing their minds to things , especially when it comes from others with experiance that don't speak the way their mentors did that they close their minds to many things that might help them advance in dog training . They reach a platuae and blame everyone else but themselves when they start having issues .

If they could only be smart enough to STFU and listen they might actually learn something new and live up to the potential they intially had . Most of these PIAs that I've encountered usually didn't last too long and if they did burdened everyone around them with excuse after excuse . 

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck it's a duck and Matt for the past few days all I've heard from you is quack , quack , quack . I know I won't change your mind so we will have to agree to disagree on this matter . Good luck .


----------



## Gerry Grimwood

Common sense is always a good thing.


----------



## Matt Grosch

^^ with that type of attitude I sure hope you weren't an FTO


----------



## Gerry Grimwood

Matt Grosch said:


> ^^ with that type of attitude I sure hope you weren't an FTO


I had a 69 GTO Judge once, drove the bejesus outa that car..wrapped it around a pole in the end, still have a limp :lol:


----------



## Jim Nash

Matt Grosch said:


> ^^ QUACK , QUACK , QUACK .


I trained many newbies and have been thanked by the ones who progressed and realized I was trying to help them .


----------



## David Frost

Jim, the difference in this conversation, between Matt and you, Howard and a couple of others; we've been there did that for real. We didn't have to go by what some world famous trainer told us. We recieve near instant and daily feedback of our work. I fear Matt is all hat, no cattle. 

DFrost


----------



## Harry Keely

Matt Grosch said:


> uh......so what do you think the price range is for trained/mature dogs?


:-kMatt its already been stated in this thread and if you don't want to believe us, theres another thread that just occured not that long ago verifying once again what has been posted.


----------



## Harry Keely

Matt Grosch said:


> ^^ with that type of attitude I sure hope you weren't an FTO


FTO are not suppose to be nice, there suppose to drill your ass so you and hopely the dog go home to the family. At work consider them a Drill Instructor outside of work is a whole other story. Same should go for club helpers training newbies. A time for work and a time for play. If you FTO is trying to be buddy buddy with you then hes not doing you proper justice while in training or during re cert JMO.


----------



## Rik Wolterbeek

Jim Nash said:


> Doesn't matter because what you've been told over and over again by people with actual experiance is that the price isn't near as important as you think it is .
> 
> Matt , you're like many other new PIA handlers who come into dog training that do a lot of studying , through books , videos , training directors , other handlers and even the internet and WAM they all of a sudden have as much knowledge as the folks they "learned" from , who had to actually have had hands on experiance for several years with dogs to learn what they passed on to you . These new handlers quickly learn the lingo and form strong opinions based mostly on what they have heard others say , read or saw in a video or siminar .
> 
> Most of these types are very smart , show alot of promise initially and initially have some success with their dogs . The problem arises when something comes up outside their realm of learning . They have formed such strong opinions so quickly and have learned the lingo well enough to defend their position "in theory" that they start closing their minds to things , especially when it comes from others with experiance that don't speak the way their mentors did that they close their minds to many things that might help them advance in dog training . They reach a platuae and blame everyone else but themselves when they start having issues .
> 
> If they could only be smart enough to STFU and listen they might actually learn something new and live up to the potential they intially had . Most of these PIAs that I've encountered usually didn't last too long and if they did burdened everyone around them with excuse after excuse .
> 
> If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck it's a duck and Matt for the past few days all I've heard from you is quack , quack , quack . I know I won't change your mind so we will have to agree to disagree on this matter . Good luck .


----------



## David Frost

Matt Grosch said:


> or the first time I clarified that I was talking about trained, non-green dogs


Granted, I don't buy trained dogs, as I mentioned back on the first page. My question would be though, even when buying a trained dog, why wouldn't selection still be the first criteria. Whether I'm spending 6k or 10k, it's my money and the deal isn't done until I accept the dog. I'd still test the dog to my criteria. Since I'd be paying more for a trained dog, my criteria would be more exacting. Price, not-with-standing, selection would still be the number one item when selecting a dog. 

DFrost


----------



## Matt Grosch

Harry Keely said:


> :-kMatt its already been stated in this thread and if you don't want to believe us, theres another thread that just occured not that long ago verifying once again what has been posted.




yeah, he said $7500 for green dogs, yet somehow my $10k for trained dogs is crazy talk


----------



## Matt Grosch

David Frost said:


> Jim, the difference in this conversation, between Matt and you, Howard and a couple of others; we've been there did that for real. We didn't have to go by what some world famous trainer told us. We recieve near instant and daily feedback of our work. I fear Matt is all hat, no cattle.
> 
> DFrost




Dont you agree that it would help any police k9 program to use some of the Ivan B., Ellis, etc type stuff IF they are only doing the old Koehler type stuff, and doing things like having the decoy beat the dog off with a stick if they wont out?

Some have the desire to learn as much as they can and be the best they can.


----------



## Matt Grosch

Harry Keely said:


> FTO are not suppose to be nice, there suppose to drill your ass so you and hopely the dog go home to the family. At work consider them a Drill Instructor outside of work is a whole other story. Same should go for club helpers training newbies. A time for work and a time for play. If you FTO is trying to be buddy buddy with you then hes not doing you proper justice while in training or during re cert JMO.




I think they are doing a poor job if it is nothing but bad attitude and they are treating you like a suspect the whole time, as opposed to actually teaching and saving the code red stuff for when its important. Also not good for them, or cops in general, to overdo the 'dont dare question anything I say', or to be the type that sweats the small stuff. Its a split, some cops can be social (and would make a good firefighter), some are not and need to be in a police or military role only.


----------



## Matt Grosch

David Frost said:


> Granted, I don't buy trained dogs, as I mentioned back on the first page. My question would be though, even when buying a trained dog, why wouldn't selection still be the first criteria. Whether I'm spending 6k or 10k, it's my money and the deal isn't done until I accept the dog. I'd still test the dog to my criteria. Since I'd be paying more for a trained dog, my criteria would be more exacting. Price, not-with-standing, selection would still be the number one item when selecting a dog.
> 
> DFrost



It was never a debate about the importance of selection vs price, although (and who knows, people may even argue with this, but) you will increase your chance if you go somewhere with a higher price than going to the dog pound (reputation and guarantee included, I have the example of the protectiondogs.com guy being a joke).

So, since everyone agrees that green dogs are costing $6,500-$7,500, I still dont know why a cop would buy a dog for $5k that is 'trained' often site unseen, and reputation/guarantee questionable at best. 

And thats my point, something that sounds like too good of a cheap deal, plus whatever other factors, and why a guy would go that way.

Not any type of 'I can pick from random a dog that cost $10k and let you pick any dog you want in the world for $7k and I know that mine will be better'


----------



## Jim Nash

Matt Grosch said:


> Dont you agree that it would help any police k9 program to use some of the Ivan B., Ellis, etc type stuff IF they are only doing the old Koehler type stuff, and doing things like having the decoy beat the dog off with a stick if they wont out?
> 
> Some have the desire to learn as much as they can and be the best they can.


It would help anyone to have an open mind in K9 training try new things get hands on experiance and not form strong opininions based mainly on what you've heard or read somewhere. For the record I've never had a decoy beat a dog off a bite with a stick , studied , attended seminars taught by those you named , learned something and you could learn a thing or 2 from Koehler regardless of what you hear from others .


----------



## Matt Grosch

Then I commend you, that seems more the exception than the rule


----------



## Harry Keely

Matt Grosch said:


> yeah, he said $7500 for green dogs, yet somehow my $10k for trained dogs is crazy talk


Matt as a few seconds ago the the euro is worth 1.37 to 1 USD.

3k - 4.5k = 4110 to 6165 euros
figure 1k to 1.5 k for shipping

So anothers words for a TITLED PH1 including shipping the dog should cost you between 5480 USD to 9200 USD this number being on the high end / border line get raped.

Green dogs here in the USA range from 5k to as high as some goof ball is willing to pay. But just because you spend 10k doesnt mean that the 5k dog won't out do the 10k dog, it all gos back to selection testing. Theres people selling 10k dogs that won't hold a candle to the 5-6k dog people. Its all based on individual dogs and handlers and once again testing.


----------



## Matt Grosch

but for the record, regarding myself, trying to get as involved as you can and working with the best competition people, and best pd k9 officers around would seem like the best you can do, and is quite different than just leaning from books/video/internet (another similarity with the fighting and shooting)


----------



## Matt Grosch

Harry Keely said:


> Matt as a few seconds ago the the euro is worth 1.37 to 1 USD.
> 
> 3k - 4.5k = 4110 to 6165 euros
> figure 1k to 1.5 k for shipping
> 
> So anothers words for a TITLED PH1 including shipping the dog should cost you between 5480 USD to 9200 USD this number being on the high end / border line get raped.



thats interesting, given that there was agreement on the $6500-$7500 for green dogs, wonder if anyone can clarify


----------



## Jim Nash

Matt Grosch said:


> but for the record, regarding myself, trying to get as involved as you can and working with the best competition people, and best pd k9 officers around would seem like the best you can do, and is quite different than just leaning from books/video/internet (another similarity with the fighting and shooting)


Great way to learn . Put some time in it experiance other things and avoid giving strong opinions based on hands on inexperiance and train your dogs .


----------



## Harry Keely

Matt Grosch said:


> I think they are doing a poor job if it is nothing but bad attitude and they are treating you like a suspect the whole time, as opposed to actually teaching and saving the code red stuff for when its important. Also not good for them, or cops in general, to overdo the 'dont dare question anything I say', or to be the type that sweats the small stuff. Its a split, some cops can be social (and would make a good firefighter), some are not and need to be in a police or military role only.


It comes down to being serious and not being serious, when training no matter the venue while you are working your dog or be instructed or giving advice you close it and open your ears and be humble. Like I said outside of training do what you want but during it is work time. As well when waiting your turn you should wait and behave diplomatically and not be goofing either. JMO, every place is different obvious some walk and some talk. Walk is a short time of your life the talk is the rest of your time, just a old saying but I think it fits this topic.


----------



## Harry Keely

Matt Grosch said:


> thats interesting, given that there was agreement on the $6500-$7500 for green dogs, wonder if anyone can clarify


Just did for you matt the numbers are there for ya and are factual, like I said go check the www and also other threads on the forum.


----------



## Howard Knauf

Matt Grosch said:


> Then I commend you, that seems more the exception than the rule


 That's a statement based on no experience. The majority of handlers want to learn as much as they can. A small minority just drive around with a dog in the car. They are close minded and learn nothing new even if they're slapped in the face with it.


----------



## Matt Grosch

Howard Knauf said:


> That's a statement based on no experience. The majority of handlers want to learn as much as they can. A small minority just drive around with a dog in the car. They are close minded and learn nothing new even if they're slapped in the face with it.




you think most k9 guys would (or have) gone to a Ivan or Ellis seminar?


----------



## Jim Nash

Matt Grosch said:


> you think most k9 guys would (or have) gone to a Ivan or Ellis seminar?


Would most go I'd say no . But many have received some sort of training that was influenced by other PSD trainers who have .


----------



## Matt Grosch

last time I can think of that the issue came up, there was a seminar with a guy that was supposedly a good police trainer and everyone was jumping on him for not being that good, other side came back with the 'yeah, but the pd stuff is real'

old debate I guess, but Ive only seen people that do one or the other, I wish there was less of a line between the two


----------



## Howard Knauf

Jim Nash said:


> Would most go I'd say no . But many have received some sort of training that was influenced by other PSD trainers who have .


 Most handlers don't have the opportunity to go. Many unit trainers do though. Just because the rank and file dont go doesn't mean they don't get training influenced by Ivan or Ellis. Budget and manpower issues keep a lot of handlers (or entire units from going) but there are other seminars besides those 2 or 3 you name. Advanced training is just that. It doesn't have to just come from a few well known people or else it's crap.

Not aimed at you Jim. My quote skills suck.


----------



## Matt Grosch

and, while pretty much unrelated, but does go with the issue of learning as much as you can and trying to do the best you can, the nutrition issue is one thing that surprises me, thats across the board, people that dont care one bit and are feeding crap without a second thought


----------



## Howard Knauf

Matt Grosch said:


> and, while pretty much unrelated, but does go with the issue of learning as much as you can and trying to do the best you can, the nutrition issue is one thing that surprises me, thats across the board, people that dont care one bit and are feeding crap without a second thought


 Can't argue with you there other than to say that municipalities generally don't pop for enough to feed raw. Our dogs do get the best vet care in the East Coast of Florida though.


----------



## Matt Grosch

Howard Knauf said:


> Most handlers don't have the opportunity to go. Many unit trainers do though. Just because the rank and file dont go doesn't mean they don't get training influenced by Ivan or Ellis. Budget and manpower issues keep a lot of handlers (or entire units from going) but there are other seminars besides those 2 or 3 you name. Advanced training is just that. It doesn't have to just come from a few well known people or else it's crap.




I dont know if they dont have the opportunity,or just dont make it a priority

some guys only do what they can on the clock, others take vacation and pay out of their own pocket to get top notch training, in a variety of areas


if this stuff is literally life and death for a cop, it makes me scratch my head when cops dont even take advantage of open range time, let alone firearms classes they can do while on the clock, when they should be doing even more, same with defensive tactics, and I would think, with dogs 

(and that was my frame of reference when making this thread, how can some guys half ass their dog selection?)

thats the main reason I stayed with the PD, free k9 training and shooting (all day class tomor), even if Im not getting paid, thats the kind of stuff I pay and take time off to do


----------



## Matt Grosch

Howard Knauf said:


> Can't argue with you there other than to say that municipalities generally don't pop for enough to feed raw. Our dogs do get the best vet care in the East Coast of Florida though.



I made another thread on dog food, and have told cops and civilians, unless you are feeding some gourmet grain free stuff, you would be hard pressed to do better than costco (about 60-70 cent/lb) and I havent found one around a buck/lb or under that can compete with it

and while you can do raw for 70 cents/lb or less, I actually wouldnt expect a dept to be able to pull this off since many vets and 'common knowledge' still says its bad, and it would take time to deal with everything unless you paid a lot more to have someone else, much easier to just have bags of kibble around


----------



## Ashley Campbell

As for the raw thing, if you look on Leerburgs site, there's an email where a K9 officer was reprimanded because he was feeding a raw diet and the k9's vet had a hissy fit and called his captain.


----------



## Matt Grosch

vet was probably mad they were violating his 'science diet' regimen


guess they would have to do it about 50/50, but if a chicken bone or something actually caused a problem (does it ever?) it would be on them, unless the dog had grabbed the chicken they had out for dinner (wink)


----------



## Howard Knauf

Matt Grosch said:


> thats the main reason I stayed with the PD, free k9 training and shooting (all day class tomor), even if Im not getting paid, thats the kind of stuff I pay and take time off to do


 While I wish everyone had the same work ethic as I did when working a PSD, sadly it's not true.

I missed a lot of family time because of the damn job. For 10 years I was maxed out on vacation time, comp time and sick time cause I couldn't wait to get to work. I was even forced to take vacation time or lose it while in the middle of instructing a patrol dog school. At that time i'd do it for free, now I take family time if I need it.

Most handlers fall in the middle between obsession and lazy but I definately know whare you are coming from. Not everyone is insane.


----------



## David Frost

We feed Nutro. Have been for at least 21 years that I know of. Is there better, perhaps. But when you feed 45 to 50 dogs a year, the same food for 20+ years and have no food related problems, I just don't see a problem. I think sometimes the "raw feeders" are a bit cultish.

DFrost


----------



## Matt Grosch

yep, if I ever do this thread again I will have to remember to come at it from more of that angle


----------



## David Frost

Howard Knauf said:


> While I wish everyone had the same work ethic as I did when working a PSD, sadly it's not true.
> 
> I missed a lot of family time because of the damn job. For 10 years I was maxed out on vacation time, comp time and sick time cause I couldn't wait to get to work. I was even forced to take vacation time or lose it while in the middle of instructing a patrol dog school. At that time i'd do it for free, now I take family time if I need it.
> 
> Most handlers fall in the middle between obsession and lazy but I definately know whare you are coming from. Not everyone is insane.


Ha ha, I know the feeling. I start a patrol class November 8. 6 dogs, three previously trained dogs. One of the handlers on the previously trained dogs is an experienced patrol dog handler. Three of the dogs are trained in drugs, but the handlers have never worked a patrol dog. Should be a fun class. I'm maxed out on annual leave, maxed out on accrued comp time. We don't max out on sick, but I do have over 2,500 hours of sick accrued. I have until March of '11 to burn any annual over my maximum. I'm not as bad as I used to be, but I still give the state way too many hours. Like most programs, I've got some handlers that aren't afraid to use some of their own time. I will point out, just for those that don't understand, a supervisor can become liable for allowing unreported, uncompensated work to be performed. Silly I know, but there is more than just one side to FSLA.

dFrost


----------



## Howard Knauf

We feed Nutromaxx. Only had an issue with one dog. I'd buy extra raw when I had the money and it was on sale due to expiration dates.


----------



## Matt Grosch

David Frost said:


> We feed Nutro. Have been for at least 21 years that I know of. Is there better, perhaps. But when you feed 45 to 50 dogs a year, the same food for 20+ years and have no food related problems, I just don't see a problem. I think sometimes the "raw feeders" are a bit cultish.
> 
> DFrost




can agree with you about them, kinda reminds me of the ladies that think you should be in jail if you dont breast feed your kid till they are 3

have been told I have to do either solely kibble or solely raw and you cant mix them (even on different days) because of the enzymes or something

and that you cant do regular chicken from the store because its not organic


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## Ashley Campbell

David Frost said:


> Ha ha, I know the feeling. I start a patrol class November 8. 6 dogs, three previously trained dogs. One of the handlers on the previously trained dogs is an experienced patrol dog handler. Three of the dogs are trained in drugs, but the handlers have never worked a patrol dog. Should be a fun class. I'm maxed out on annual leave, maxed out on accrued comp time. We don't max out on sick, but I do have over 2,500 hours of sick accrued. I have until March of '11 to burn any annual over my maximum. I'm not as bad as I used to be, but I still give the state way too many hours. Like most programs, I've got some handlers that aren't afraid to use some of their own time. I will point out, just for those that don't understand, a supervisor can become liable for allowing unreported, uncompensated work to be performed. Silly I know, but there is more than just one side to FSLA.
> 
> dFrost


Ok, now I have to ask. Can you sell back your leave days?

I know soldiers can sell up to 30 back during their career on a re-enlistment, I've seen my ex do it. He's another workaholic like you guys. He's on "use or lose" days next month so he took 29 days off (30+ your commander has to sign off on) and will do it again in Feb just to use up some of his days.


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## Ashley Campbell

Matt Grosch said:


> can agree with you about them, kinda reminds me of the ladies that think you should be in jail if you dont breast feed your kid till they are 3
> 
> have been told I have to do either solely kibble or solely raw and you cant mix them (even on different days) because of the enzymes or something
> 
> and that you cant do regular chicken from the store because its not organic


Yeah that stuff just kills me. I grew up with farm dogs, that ate livestock that was put down (read: shot) and grocery store kibble. None of them died early from food related issues.

I feed Purina right now, going back to Costco's brand as soon as I renew my membership. Dogs eat dead shit, that is rotten and decaying - I'm not too concerned that I"m going to kill them with kibble.


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## Matt Grosch

right, but its just like how it would be a poor decision to feed your kids nothing but mcdonalds


I actually know one broker that feeds all his dogs cooked chicken, which was new to me


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## Matt Grosch

I know of one guy that uses homeless drifter and occasional hooker, but I am totally against that, 'soylent green' or something



(and do I get a prize or something if my thread is the longest of the month?)


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## David Frost

Ashley Campbell said:


> Ok, now I have to ask. Can you sell back your leave days?
> 
> I know soldiers can sell up to 30 back during their career on a re-enlistment, I've seen my ex do it. He's another workaholic like you guys. He's on "use or lose" days next month so he took 29 days off (30+ your commander has to sign off on) and will do it again in Feb just to use up some of his days.


Yes, I can sell up to 380 hours of annual. I did that as well when I retired from the military. I remember being able to sell up to 90 days on retirement. I could be wrong, but that's what I remember. Comp time is also compensable.

DFrost


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## David Frost

Matt Grosch said:


> I know of one guy that uses homeless drifter and occasional hooker, but I am totally against that, 'soylent green' or something
> 
> 
> 
> (and do I get a prize or something if my thread is the longest of the month?)


Matt, I'll be honest with ya, there are many that have alreayd given you a "prize" on this thread. Nothing official, mind you. 

Officially, no prize. It will either run it's course or it will be closed when it get to the point of ridiculous.



DFrost


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## Jim Nash

Howard Knauf said:


> While I wish everyone had the same work ethic as I did when working a PSD, sadly it's not true.
> 
> I missed a lot of family time because of the damn job. For 10 years I was maxed out on vacation time, comp time and sick time cause I couldn't wait to get to work. I was even forced to take vacation time or lose it while in the middle of instructing a patrol dog school. At that time i'd do it for free, now I take family time if I need it.
> 
> Most handlers fall in the middle between obsession and lazy but I definately know whare you are coming from. Not everyone is insane.


I'm with you on that . I was that way most of my career . Even before K9 . Spent the days off waiting to go back . Drove my ex nuts because I had to have my pacset on so I could hear what dirtbags were doing what so I knew who to look for when I go back . Rolled out on alot of calls too . The guys would joke that I sat in my driveway waiting for something to happen .

I've only burned about 30 hours of sick time in 19 years and most of that was for my 3 kids birth . Actually worked the day after my first kids birth while my ex was in the hospital from a c-section . Pribed the dispatchers with bagels to only send me K9 calls because I wanted to be in the hospital room with my wife after the birth . Sure sh** a bank gets robbed . You know what that means . 

Suprise suprise she divorced me and that was why I stepped down as a trainer . They wanted me to stay on but there was no way I could give the time needed for that job . I needed to focus on family instead . Still miss the excitement but I like to say even though I'm not as good a cop as I used to be I'm a much better father .


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## Ashley Campbell

David Frost said:


> Yes, I can sell up to 380 hours of annual. I did that as well when I retired from the military. I remember being able to sell up to 90 days on retirement. I could be wrong, but that's what I remember. Comp time is also compensable.
> 
> DFrost


I'm pretty sure the Army doesn't let you sell back terminal leave (retirement or ETS) unless you haven't sold leave in the past. They make you take it - which really isn't a bad gig if you're out looking for a new job and have 80 leave days that you're still getting paid for.

That's good they let you sell back annual though rather than just losing it.


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## Matt Grosch

Hey everyone, David said im the big winner!



*







yes*


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## Chris Michalek

here's a vendor for you 

http://www.highlandcanine.com/protection dog training.htm


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## Howard Knauf

Jim Nash said:


> I've only burned about 30 hours of sick time in 19 years and most of that was for my 3 kids birth . Actually worked the day after my first kids birth while my ex was in the hospital from a c-section .


 My first 15 years I only burned 8 hours of sick time. I worked with the flu, the shits, a broken toe, a dislocated shoulder etc etc. It never occurred to me to use that sick time cause I might really need it later.

On the other hand..we have some 20 year officers with no sick time built up. It always pisses me off when the same people call in sick and make us work dangerously short. Even now when I take a sick day I feel guilty cause I'm not on my death bed.

We get 360 hrs buy back from our sick time upon retirement as long as we are maxed out (720 hrs). They buy back our vacation and comp as well. The good thing about all this is that it is figured as salary so that it bumps our retirement up. It's a good deal.

Anything over 720 hrs of sick at the end of the year the city buys back half. Usually 35 hrs which comes in handy around Christmas. Funny thing is...If I take the sick time off I get paid for ALL of it but noooo...I feel too guilty. Damn my parents!!


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## Howard Knauf

Chris Michalek said:


> here's a vendor for you
> 
> http://www.highlandcanine.com/protection dog training.htm


 My Chiwowow does the same thing as their level 1 dog. $10,500 for a barking dog! What a load of crap.


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## Chris Michalek

Howard Knauf said:


> My Chiwowow does the same thing as their level 1 dog. $10,500 for a barking dog! What a load of crap.



according to matt, at that price, it can do police work! :mrgreen:


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## Ashley Campbell

> *evel I Personal Protection Dogs* - These dogs are *social family companions* and are selected specifically to live with children and other pets. These dogs are trained in complete on and off-leash obedience. Level I Personal Protection Dogs are trained to be alert in their home / surroundings and to bark and alert their owners to the presence of intruders. These dogs are not trained to bite or apprehend subjects. Level I Protection dogs are trained to bark on command and when they feel a threat to themselves or their owners. These dogs are ideal for families that are concerned with having a dog that is *fully trained* in *protection work*.


Cool, so that means I can get $10k for my GSD because she barks at people and is obedient? SWEET! She's a good family dog too, maybe I can ask for more! LOL what a joke.


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## Howard Knauf

> according to matt, at that price, it can do police work!


Hey now! We're back on topic!=D>


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## Matt Grosch

if you really want to see silliness go to protectiondogs.com and watch the little advertising video they have that is supposed to be impressive


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## Chris Michalek

Chris Michalek said:


> here's a vendor for you
> 
> http://www.highlandcanine.com/protection dog training.htm



one of their dogs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OiQ48KdfeJs


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## Matthew Grubb

Chris Michalek said:


> one of their dogs
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OiQ48KdfeJs


Cool.... for $22K you get a dog that spins away from the handler to avoid getting hooked up and taken off the bite.


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## Jim Nash

Reading all this money stuff evidently to be a good cop I have to pay out the ass to be prepared for all the things a cop must do . Because as you know Matt , shooting , fighting and dog training are only a small part of what we do . So for sure on top of what you just mentioned you must be paying to get better at the other things required of us way more then those 3 things on a day to day basis . 

I need a raise . Now I gotta take extra shooting classes , MMA , Psychology classes , EMT classes , law classes , tactical classes , fitness classes , crisis management classes , cultural awarenesses classes , dog training , drug and alcohol classes , marriage and family couciling classes . I'm sure I'm missing something .

Not saying you've said this Matt but I gotta laugh when people ask why if cops are expected to shoot guns , fight criminals , train dogs , etc. why civilians are better then them at it . Then they go on to point out a civilian whose main job is just to shoot a gun , train a dog or win matches . 

How do you do all this with a wife and kids while paying for a house , school , sports , band , braces for the kids much less trying to have enough to clothe and feed the family and maybe spend a little extra for some fun here and there and keep them all happy on top of that ? You must have quite the understanding family . 

You're my hero , you should write a book , you will make millions , just make sure you charge a butt load for it otherwise I won't think it's worth reading .


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## Ashley Campbell

> How do you do all this with a wife and kids while paying for a house , school , sports , band , braces for the kids much less trying to have enough to clothe and feed the family and maybe spend a little extra for some fun here and there .


You do like we do, your wife stays home to deal with kids and finances while you work your ass off. Your wife just has to suck it up and deal with it or...well we all know how that ends.


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## Matt Grosch

Jim Nash said:


> Reading all this money stuff evidently to be a good cop I have to pay out the ass to be prepared for all the things a cop must do . Because as you know Matt , shooting , fighting and dog training are only a small part of what we do . So for sure on top of what you just mentioned you must be paying to get better at the other things required of us way more then those 3 things on a day to day basis .
> 
> I need a raise . Now I gotta take extra shooting classes , MMA , Psychology classes , EMT classes , law classes , tactical classes , fitness classes , crisis management classes , cultural awarenesses classes , dog training , drug and alcohol classes , marriage and family couciling classes . I'm sure I'm missing something .
> 
> Not saying you've said this Matt but I gotta laugh when people ask why if cops are expected to shoot guns , fight criminals , train dogs , etc. why civilians are better then them at it . Then they go on to point out a civilian whose main job is just to shoot a gun , train a dog or win matches .
> 
> How do you do all this with a wife and kids while paying for a house , school , sports , band , braces for the kids much less trying to have enough to clothe and feed the family and maybe spend a little extra for some fun here and there and keep them all happy on top of that ? You must have quite the understanding family .
> 
> You're my hero , you should write a book , you will make millions , just make sure you charge a butt load for it otherwise I won't think it's worth reading .



most of the people that go to the gym, train mma, do dog (sport) training, etc are all civilians that work at least 40 hrs a week, and they find the time, and these are people whose lives and job probably dont depend on it

and unless you are a real life jason bourne or something, you dont have to do them all everyday


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## Jim Nash

Matt Grosch said:


> most of the people that go to the gym, train mma, do dog (sport) training, etc are all civilians that work at least 40 hrs a week, and they find the time, and these are people whose lives and job probably dont depend on it
> 
> and unless you are a real life jason bourne or something, you dont have to do them all everyday


and cops don't have hobbies like that . Once again totally not getting the point .


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## Matt Grosch

yeah, but they should have priorities like that, thats the point (what else would it be?)

and unless they are the sole parent and have to be with kids, they have the time and chose to spend it elsewhere


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## David Frost

Jim Nash said:


> and cops don't have hobbies like that . Once again totally not getting the point .


Such a shame. So many of us, doing it all wrong, for so many years. I'm surprised I'm even allowed to train a PSD anymore. ha ha ha

On a good note, one of my cheap dogs (only paid 5.5k for it) tracked a guy about 600 yards into the woods (side of the interstate) after he crashed, after hitting a local deputy's car, and apprehended him. When the handler called the dog off (dog released and returned to handler) the moron took off running. After a warning, the dog (re?) apprehended the man. Subject, 10-15 (in custody), roll medical. 
Don't ask, we don't post apprehension photos.

DFrost


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## Lee H Sternberg

Anybody here guessing Fellatio? I started about 10 pages ago for some odd reason!


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## Matt Grosch

very impressive for you guys to be able to turn the fact that cops should spend more time on the skills that will save their lives into an argument

you must hate books like Grossman's "On Combat", "On Killing" and pretty much anything along those lines


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## Harry Keely

:-k When does this end, I know I'm guilty to for posting on this thread:-$


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## Candy Eggert

David Frost said:


> Such a shame. So many of us, doing it all wrong, for so many years. I'm surprised I'm even allowed to train a PSD anymore. ha ha ha
> 
> On a good note, one of my cheap dogs (only paid 5.5k for it) tracked a guy about 600 yards into the woods (side of the interstate) after he crashed, after hitting a local deputy's car, and apprehended him. When the handler called the dog off (dog released and returned to handler) the moron took off running. After a warning, the dog (re?) apprehended the man. Subject, 10-15 (in custody), roll medical.
> Don't ask, we don't post apprehension photos.
> 
> DFrost


If that was a $10K K9 he wouldn't have had to bite twice me suspects :lol:


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## will fernandez

Matt obviously dog training is your passion as well as mine. But being a K9 handler is a job. Some people just want to do what they have to do and go home. Most of us that come on this board are more passionate about it.

I am willing to bet that (most)of the guys that spend their towns money on a pre trained dog are not the passionate type that want to train a green dog themselves. 

Just out of curiosity how old are you?


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## Jim Nash

Matt Grosch said:


> very impressive for you guys to be able to turn the fact that cops should spend more time on the skills that will save their lives into an argument
> 
> you must hate books like Grossman's "On Combat", "On Killing" and pretty much anything along those lines



Love the book , recommended it and have quoted it a few times on this forum .

I love this from him .

http://www.killology.com/sheep_dog.htm

As a matter of fact I've been known to hand it out copies to some of the cop know it alls and monday morning quarterbacks .

If you don't think I spend extra time in the gym at the range and with my dog you loopy .

You're still not getting it and won't . It must be nice to have such a black and white perspective on things . It sure makes things easier since you don't have to put as much thought into things . 

For others there a bit of grey in their thinking . Ask one of your training buddies about that one I'm sure they can explain it to you . 

You're still clueless to what I and others have been trying to get across to you . Hopefully with all the research and classes you will someday figure it out . 

As for the original topic , same goes for that . Hopefully you continue to learn and gain experiance and hopefully actually get to get some hands on experiance with selecting and aquisitioning dogS . Maybe you will learn what a rookie you've sounded like on here .


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## Guest

Excellent book, loved it myself and do recommend it to anyone I see in the mindset....





Jim Nash said:


> Love the book , recommended it and have quoted it a few times on this forum .
> 
> I love this from him .
> 
> http://www.killology.com/sheep_dog.htm
> 
> As a matter of fact I've been known to hand it out copies to some of the cop know it alls and monday morning quarterbacks .
> 
> If you don't think I spend extra time in the gym at the range and with my dog you loopy .
> 
> You're still not getting it and won't . It must be nice to have such a black and white perspective on things . It sure makes things easier since you don't have to put as much thought into things .
> 
> For others there a bit of grey in their thinking . Ask one of your training buddies about that one I'm sure they can explain it to you .
> 
> You're still clueless to what I and others have been trying to get across to you . Hopefully with all the research and classes you will someday figure it out .
> 
> As for the original topic , same goes for that . Hopefully you continue to learn and gain experiance and hopefully actually get to get some hands on experiance with selecting and aquisitioning dogS . Maybe you will learn what a rookie you've sounded like on here .


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## Howard Knauf

Yea, it's easy to say cops don't do enough. From Matt it's not enough shooting, MMA or dog training. From other civvies it's not enough of arresting people for stupid shit off duty. "Why, you're a cop 24/7 aren't you?". "Why won't you write the neighbor a parking ticket in your boxers?". Where does it end Matt?

For the record....I've been weight lifting non-stop since 1977 (one short break in '85 but that's it). I did a little boxing back in the day and still hit the bags at my home (not my wife mind you). I also have my own dog training business as well as working part time at a local dog training center. I work with Boxer, Lab and GSD rescue as well now and then. I currently am working on a detector dog project which will be the first of it's kind anywhere as far as my research tells me. I sit on our county's dangerous dog review board.

All this and time to still go fishing and hunting and time with the family. Not to mention bullshit 12 hour shifts that leave me wasted and constantly trying to figure out what day it is. After 5 years of those shifts the elephant was finally eaten. I make stupid mistakes that some day will get me killed. Don't forget the OT that turns a 12 hr day into 15. Or the court on the days off etc etc. Yea, I know we took the job but I don't bitch about it until someone who tries to play at it decides to tell me we don't do enough.

Musn't forget about the time spent here and on other boards...along with reading books and training with my personal dogs.

Damn lazy cops.


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## Matthew Grubb

I don't know where you guys find all the time for this stuff.... I work steady midnights..

And finishing up my shift between court and dog training I work, then sleep, then go back to work. This goes on almost all week except for every other Friday which is a training day for SWAT... which gets me two extra evenings a month to spend with my family. Throw a few gym days in there where i trade two hours of sleep for some lifting and running.


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## Joby Becker

If there is a standard/requirement...is that NOT ENOUGH?. Above average bite work is nice but is it necessary to do the JOB of ans average dual purpose dog?


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## David Frost

Joby Becker said:


> If there is a standard/requirement...is that NOT ENOUGH?. Above average bite work is nice but is it necessary to do the JOB of ans average dual purpose dog?


I posted awhile back that anything beyond "sinking the teeth to the gumline and staying in the fight until being recalled, is nothing more than mine is bigger than yours." I still feel that way. Aveage as you put it, in my mind would be the minimum requirement. I know it means half the dogs are better and half would be worse. In setting a minimum standard however, that isn't necessarily true. Unless you qualify that by saying the average dog that certifies. Minimum standard is, full bite and remain engaged until commanded to release. Beyond that ----- yeah, get the tape measure out. In the police business, that would indicate to me they are also competition whores. But who am I to judge, ha ha.

DFrost


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## Jim Nash

Matthew Grubb said:


> I don't know where you guys find all the time for this stuff.... I work steady midnights..
> 
> And finishing up my shift between court and dog training I work, then sleep, then go back to work. This goes on almost all week except for every other Friday which is a training day for SWAT... which gets me two extra evenings a month to spend with my family. Throw a few gym days in there where i trade two hours of sleep for some lifting and running.


We get an hour a day during the shift to workout , if it's not busy . We also have an awesome gym with anything you need . Donated from Life Time Fitness . I try to go everyday except Fridays and Saturdays unless those days are oppressively slow . 

I work a 9 hour shift but usually about 3 days a week I work a 4 hour off-duty shift before work . It used to be 8 hours but the banks cut back . Damn economy .


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## Joby Becker

I currently work with 4 PSD handlers, I am the criminal/escapee/bad guy/muzzle/hidden guy.the dogs go through big city training programs/certs..... most do not measure up to MY (PERSONAL) standards, but make good police dogs...but hell I do private PP shows, that multple PSD have been out performed (in stirctly ppd) TERMS...by off breeds...APBT/mixes, etc....the big OPERATIONALLY/PROFESSIONAL difference has been in the off lead into the woods or night-time pressured apprehensions..and trailing.. and guard-find and guard/bite..I made some claims to the DOGS that I might produce in regards to PSD, that i STILL believe were accurate, but time will tell...I will play with PSD stuff with MY bitch and post accordingly..Since I CANNOT post PSD stuff from the K9's I work with,,


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## Matthew Grubb

Jim Nash said:


> We get an hour a day during the shift to workout , if it's not busy . We also have an awesome gym with anything you need . Donated from Life Time Fitness . I try to go everyday except Fridays and Saturdays unless those days are oppressively slow .
> 
> I work a 9 hour shift but usually about 3 days a week I work a 4 hour off-duty shift before work . It used to be 8 hours but the banks cut back . Damn economy .


 
Soooo lucky to have built in workout time. We work steady 8 hour days picked by seniority. Our extra work details (mall, restaurants, weddings, concerts) are flowing well despite the economy. I don't have time to work any of those details.


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## Jim Nash

Joby Becker said:


> I currently work with 4 PSD handlers, I am the criminal/escapee/bad guy/muzzle/hidden guy.the dogs go through big city training programs/certs..... most do not measure up to MY (PERSONAL) standards, but make good police dogs...but hell I do private PP shows, that multple PSD have been out performed (in stirctly ppd) TERMS...by off breeds...APBT/mixes, etc....the big OPERATIONALLY/PROFESSIONAL difference has been in the off lead into the woods or night-time pressured apprehensions..and trailing.. and guard-find and guard/bite..I made some claims to the DOGS that I might produce in regards to PSD, that i STILL believe were accurate, but time will tell...I will play with PSD stuff with MY bitch and post accordingly..Since I CANNOT post PSD stuff from the K9's I work with,,



It's amazing but some K9 units don't train the search work that well and/or enough . Even though the Primary Purpose of a PSD is that of a "Locating Tool" . The bulk of there training seems to be the bitework and it showed when there dogs couldn't find a turd in a toilet . 

Not sure how they can't figure out that if you can't find them you can't bite them .


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## Matt Grosch

Jim Nash said:


> Love the book , recommended it and have quoted it a few times on this forum .
> 
> I love this from him .
> 
> http://www.killology.com/sheep_dog.htm
> 
> As a matter of fact I've been known to hand it out copies to some of the cop know it alls and monday morning quarterbacks .
> 
> If you don't think I spend extra time in the gym at the range and with my dog you loopy .
> 
> You're still not getting it and won't . It must be nice to have such a black and white perspective on things . It sure makes things easier since you don't have to put as much thought into things .
> 
> For others there a bit of grey in their thinking . Ask one of your training buddies about that one I'm sure they can explain it to you .
> 
> You're still clueless to what I and others have been trying to get across to you . Hopefully with all the research and classes you will someday figure it out .
> 
> As for the original topic , same goes for that . Hopefully you continue to learn and gain experiance and hopefully actually get to get some hands on experiance with selecting and aquisitioning dogS . Maybe you will learn what a rookie you've sounded like on here .




thank you for the encouragement, but im sure if I keep training with the best around me, putting in the work, and staying dedicated, I will end up ok


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## David Frost

Matt Grosch said:


> you must hate books like Grossman's "On Combat", "On Killing" and pretty much anything along those lines


It's difficult, honestly, for me to comment on your post. I'll just say; those that have walked that walk, might have a different opinion than you.

DFrost


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## Matt Grosch

a bit bummed out since I threw a round at the 25 yard line and blew my perfect qual....so will have to engage in any banter later, but


did get a little more info on the history of the k9 program, they used to get green dogs from an in state kennel for less, but said it took multiple officers 6 months to get them street ready, now they spend a few thousand more and get one that is street ready in one month (longer if it is explosives detection dual purpose vs narcs) and actually saves money overall

that the last one was ready in less than 100 hours

and the current one (I had said he had detection down in under a week, I guess it was actually 4 days) is on a similar fast track


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## Jim Nash

Matt Grosch said:


> a bit bummed out since I threw a round at the 25 yard line and blew my perfect qual....so will have to engage in any banter later, but
> 
> 
> did get a little more info on the history of the k9 program, they used to get green dogs from an in state kennel for less, but said it took multiple officers 6 months to get them street ready, now they spend a few thousand more and get one that is street ready in one month (longer if it is explosives detection dual purpose vs narcs) and actually saves money overall
> 
> that the last one was ready in less than 100 hours
> 
> and the current one (I had said he had detection down in under a week, I guess it was actually 4 days) is on a similar fast track







I hate it when that happens , but I can still operate afterwards . Every good cop should . I live by the saying " Never Give Up ! " . Got a tattoo of it I believe in it so much . 

We put a green dog or titled dog and it's handler through a 12 week course to get them street ready . Then a 4 week course if we want to cross train them in either Narc or Bomb detection . No fast tracking for us unless it's a very experianced handler . We believe their are 2 sides of the team that needs to be trained . We teach the handler how to train their dogs . 

Once again none of this matters though in relationship to the original topic because selection trumps price .

Get Well Soon .


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## Jim Nash

Matt Grosch said:


> a bit bummed out since I threw a round at the 25 yard line and blew my perfect qual....so will have to engage in any banter later, but


Here's a couple if vids to hopefully cheer you up . 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QgctZDpHSQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Re2FMk64EaY


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## Ashley Campbell

LMAO!!!

"I get shot at, I'm not going to lie to you"

Fireman: I get laid.


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