# Starting a Schutzhund club in the four corners area of Colorado?



## Lindzey Wills (Apr 12, 2010)

Hey, I don't usually post around the forum, just lurk and watch the big boys play- but I'm kinda going nuts over here. Not sure where to start soooo, yeah haha. If I stop making sense somewhere then please disregard me. 

I relocated from Florida last year, now living in Cortez, Colorado. As I've brought up before there are literally no clubs near me. No Schutzhund, Ring, PSA...nothing. I can't legally drive as I'm only 16 and will not have my license until I'm 18 due to guardian complications. If that's even an actual term? Whatever. My Grandfather is willing to drive me to a club and every training day from there, but Denver is a bit unrealistic and that seems to be the only thing 'close'. Thing is, I have Hades, my 1 year old intact male GSD. We've been training solo and I feel like I've hit a dead end. I can only take him so far without the benefits of having a club and decoy. I want to title him, very badly, but I don't have the resources. 

I guess what I'm leading up to is, what does starting a Schutzhund club entail? Is this even an option? How does one go about finding and kidnapping a decoy? Not literally guys, just saying. I met up with Randy McKnight once, but he's in New Mexico so that's (once again) a bit far for either of us. Let alone to regularly work a dog. How about me? Where would I go to learn decoy work? Could I be a decoy? I've worked a few dogs before. As a complete noob, but hey, at least I know I can take an escape bite and not fall on my ass. Still wouldn't solve my problem of working my own dog, but hey, it's a start...? I'm even willing and open to a Ring club. Or a PSA club. Hell anything at this point would make me a happy kid and my dog even more than me! 

So, what's the deal? Is it possible?


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Hi Lindzey,

Do you have a place a group can meet to train?

Tough spot your in. Some suggestions.

1. Start a yahoo group for your area, working dogs.
2. Put up flyer's at Vet office's and any other such places.
3. Promote your club as a working dog club. One that open to all. Then after you have 6 or so people see if the group can focus on one type of training and officially form a club. I think most clubs SchH, mondio, etc. require a group of five or seven people to officially form. UScA has a application on the website.

If you end up with 3 doing ring and 3 doing IPO just stay as a working dog club and go with it. The club will evolve after a while, maybe slant one way or another.

Good luck, it may take awhile


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## Lindzey Wills (Apr 12, 2010)

Edward Egan said:


> Hi Lindzey,
> 
> Do you have a place a group can meet to train?
> 
> ...



Yes! I'm on five acres, I'm sure there's a place for a field out here. If my place isn't possible for some reason, like rain which causes terrible clay mud around here, then there's the Dolores Highway park just down the road. Open, grassy and always empty. 

Thanks so much for posting, and for the advice :smile:


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

It's great you have a field. Make it look as good as possible, build some equipment, jump, A-frame, blinds wtc. This will impress people that your serious and peak interest.

I forgot to add. While it would be nice to start off with a decoy, it's not really required. For instance IPO now has titles for tracking and OB. If you happen to be able to attend decoy seminars then go that route. It would also be good to have one or two more people to attend decoy seminars. This way you can work each others dogs.
Money is always an issue. I'd start out with small membership fee's, like $100 or $150 per year for equipment, insurance etc.


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## Lindzey Wills (Apr 12, 2010)

I'm currently looking for a job, as I plan to build an a-frame and meter jump this summer, blinds too. Once I get that secured equipment won't be a huge issue. Also clearing a large area out front for the field, uprooting a few bushes and all that jazz. 

I did know about the DVG's IPO titles for obedience and tracking. Never thought about decoy seminars! Thanks for the ideas.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

If you are interested in PSA, try contacting Dwayne Baker from Anthem K9 in Utah. He's the interim west coast district director and he might know of some folks interested in your area.

https://www.facebook.com/anthemk9


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## Lindzey Wills (Apr 12, 2010)

Thank you Maren


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> If you are interested in PSA, try contacting Dwayne Baker from Anthem K9 in Utah. He's the interim west coast district director and he might know of some folks interested in your area.
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/anthemk9


 
I was wondering if he's still involved...haven't heard from him in a while


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## Tim Connell (Apr 17, 2010)

Don't worry so much about being "official" so much at this point- some people get hung up on training with groups that label themselves as a "one sport" group. Sometimes, the best training comes from people that get together from different disciplines, so long as the individual dogs get worked with discipline specific goals in mind. 

The groups I train with cross several disciplines, IPO, Police, French Ring, etc. All it takes is enthusiastic people who want to get out and train. There may be more people in your area just like you who just need you as the catalyst to put it together!

See if there are any squared away police dog people in your area...so that way if it takes a while to assemble a crew, at least you can do all of your obedience, tracking, retrieves, etc. on your own, and maybe have someone to link up with for just your bitework.

Keep your options open!


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## Tim Connell (Apr 17, 2010)

Don't worry so much about being "official" so much at this point- some people get hung up on training with groups that label themselves as a "one sport" group. Sometimes, the best training comes from people that get together from different disciplines, so long as the individual dogs get worked with discipline specific goals in mind. 

The groups I train with cross several disciplines, IPO, Police, French Ring, etc. All it takes is enthusiastic people who want to get out and train. There may be more people in your area just like you who just need you as the catalyst to put it together!

See if there are any squared away police dog people in your area...so that way if it takes a while to assemble a crew, at least you can do all of your obedience, tracking, retrieves, etc. on your own, and maybe have someone to link up with for just your bitework.

Keep your options open!


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Tim Connell said:


> Don't worry so much about being "official" so much at this point- some people get hung up on training with groups that label themselves as a "one sport" group. Sometimes, the best training comes from people that get together from different disciplines, so long as the individual dogs get worked with discipline specific goals in mind.


I have to agree with this. Until your group is ready to actually start holding trials, or competing, there isn't really any need to become an official XYZ sport club. Keep it open and you will probably have better luck finding people that want to train. There is no reason the group can't be working 1 dog in Ring, one dog in Schutzhund, 1 for PSA, etc as long as everyone is willing to do their homework to find out what each sport requires. And as others said, the group will tend to gravitate in a specific direction, but even if they don't, if you have a good group of people who work well together, and the dogs are making progress, who cares how many sports you are doing.

Having the field is a *major* step in the right direction. Jumps can be made fairly inexpensively, but that's also something that can happen once you get a few more people interested. You will definitely want insurance for the club considering it's your/family property you are training on.

I would also try to see what events are within driving distance and go watch, network, etc. You may find people that are in your area who are driving elsewhere to train, that would be very happy to have something more local.


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## Lindzey Wills (Apr 12, 2010)

Wow, lots of input!
Thank you guys so much for posting, really means a lot. 

I'm all for keeping it open, just didn't know if that was a common/okay thing to do. 
I'll definitely be checking back here for referencing. Just cut a few bushes that were in the way on the field today, I think it's going to work really well. 

Kadi, where/who/how would I go about getting insurance? Sorry if that's a broad question D;


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Lindzey Wills said:


> Kadi, where/who/how would I go about getting insurance? Sorry if that's a broad question D;


A lot of clubs use Sportsmans Insurance, but I suspect there are other organizations out there that you could get it through.


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## Lindzey Wills (Apr 12, 2010)

Thanks ^^~


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Lindzey

Advertise in Durango. There was a small training group a few years ago . There might be some people still interested. The Durango girls used to come up and train with Summit Schutzhund in Denver every so often. I can see if anyone still has contact info? PM me.


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## Lindzey Wills (Apr 12, 2010)

Planning on it Thomas!
I'll message you.


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

check and see if your home insurance covers you before you go and buy more insurance.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Daniel Lybbert said:


> check and see if your home insurance covers you before you go and buy more insurance.


what companies will cover the ongoing activity of training dogs, in most peoples eyes, to bite people, if they know about it? 

I have no clue if there are any...but I would doubt if one was open and honest about the activity of bitework, that no company would...if they found out the details of the sports.

just guessing here.
anyone know of companies that do cover hosting dogsport training under a homeowners policy, knowingly?


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Joby Becker said:


> what companies will cover the ongoing activity of training dogs, in most peoples eyes, to bite people, if they know about it?
> 
> I have no clue if there are any...but I would doubt if one was open and honest about the activity of bitework, that no company would...if they found out the details of the sports.
> 
> ...


I would also be concerned that if the homeowners insurance found out you were training dogs to bite on the property, they might just drop you, then good luck getting homeowners with someone else. I had a homeowners policy a number of years ago that specifically covered the dogs and any possible bite, knowing what the dogs were trained for. And at that time I still had a Dobe and I think I had a Pit. So it was a pretty liberal homeowners policy, but it still didn't cover any training on my property, just my personal dogs. My FR Club's insurance policy did cover the training though for club members, while at our normal field (a field at someone's house) but also when we traveled to other fields or events.

IMO it's better to just get insurance for the club, that covers the club activities. The normal policy will also cover a few events a year, and since it's for the club it can cover, depending on how it's set up, events held in other locations, and even in some situations club members who aren't currently at training.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

*Re Insurance*

Insurance is a great expense, especially for a new training group/club.
It would NOT be one of my priorities. I would rely instead on everyone that trained on my property signing releases and waivers of liability.
As far as home owners insurance. You are NOT training "biting" dogs.
You are training obedience and controlled protection where grips are a minimal part of the training and done with protective clothing.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

*Re: Re Insurance*



Thomas Barriano said:


> Insurance is a great expense, especially for a new training group/club.
> It would NOT be one of my priorities. I would rely instead on everyone that trained on my property signing releases and waivers of liability.
> As far as home owners insurance. You are NOT training "biting" dogs.
> You are training obedience and controlled protection where grips are a minimal part of the training and done with protective clothing.


I get that. but is that actually discussed? or does one just say we are doing dog training here, in a general sense.

I dont know..

anyone know anyone that tested the "waivers" in court, just curious..
what would your waivers say? all liabilty goes to the dogs owner in case of a bite? what about the decoys? just curious...

anyone finding out if the people that attend have health insurance?

I would hope that people that were members of the club would agree not to sue the property owner, regardless. even if it took some lying to their own insurance companies or the doctors if an injury occurs...but I guess if the injury was serious enough, causing permanent or de-bilitating injury, or the people didnt have health insurance, that would go out the window depending on the people involved.

In out goofy area, one guy got his scalp cleaved by a dog, guy was not interested in suing, or even having his medical attention paid for. he just went to the ER...

turned into a HUGE mess...told doctors that he got bit by a dog, but that he knew the dog, and it was just a training accident, that the dog was not a vicious dog etc...etc...but....

where we live, the hospitals are required to forward ALL dog bites treated to the health department, who demands that all information is given about the dog in question. this guy tried to hold out on giving the information, but was threatened with a massive fine for not telling..

he told, the dog was from a different county, so the health department forwarded the info to the dog owners county officials, who then hounded the owner of the dog...luckily he knew a bunch of county cops, one took care of it for him somehow, otherwise his dog would have ended up with a strike against him....

anyhow in todays sue-happy world, one might air on the side of caution.

Injuries are rare, and probably in most cases happen to the decoys or handlers of their own dogs...but you never know what can happen...god forbid it is serious.

I bet more people twist their ankles, or pull back muscles, or other muscles and stuff at training, or fall down, than bites..

I think you are relatively safe with a small group of trusted people, but do think it is a good idea to discuss how things would be handled if an injury occurs, of any sort, bite or not...

I just thought of something, I have no clue how insurance has been set up at most places I have gone, have never even been asked if the dog was current on rabies shot, and have only had to sign a few waivers, and those were at events only not training. I am glad my dog didn't bite anyone..except the decoys, and that no serious injuries occurred, seems I could have unknowingly been putting myself at risk...

scary stuff...most likely no big deal, but could be everything and ruin you financially I guess...one in a million chance, but so is winning the lottery, and people win all the time..


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Hey Joby

I hear what you're saying. That's what happens when there are too many lawyers in a Society :-(
I"m not sure how it is in other jurisdictions, but in Colorado I've had to go to the ER 3x Twice for myself and once when my dog bit someone at training. Luckily the time my dog bit a decoy we were training in La Junta and the local ER didn't even ask how it happened. In Colorado 
Springs I said I was bitten by my own dog trying to break up a fight
with a loose dog. I brought my dogs rabies tag and never had any repercussions. Policy may differ in other areas.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Hey Joby
> 
> I hear what you're saying. That's what happens when there are too many lawyers in a Society :-(
> I"m not sure how it is in other jurisdictions, but in Colorado I've had to go to the ER 3x Twice for myself and once when my dog bit someone at training. Luckily the time my dog bit a decoy we were training in La Junta and the local ER didn't even ask how it happened. *In Colorado
> ...


that should be any club policy right there....

how did you get bit Thomas? you decoying?


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## Lindzey Wills (Apr 12, 2010)

Lots to think about here : /
What would you guys say is the best bet on the bite/injury subject? Get insurance? Don't and just sign waivers? Or snag Thomas's line and have anyone say "I was bit by my own dog trying to break up a fight with a loose dog.", which is, a pretty good excuse if you can work it. I don't know how exactly to go about this part of forming a club P:

If it matters, my Grandpa owns the house and property. I have no idea what kind of insurance it has on it.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> that should be any club policy right there....
> 
> how did you get bit Thomas? you decoying?


The first time was actually breaking up a fight between two of my dogs.
The second was when a dog broke a long down at training and went after another dog. Most dogs react to a NO when you get between them and a decoy or other dog, by downing or returning to the handler. This dog reacted by nailing me on the arm. He was washed out soon after. Way too much dog for a new handler :-(


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## Deb Vigil (Jan 1, 2008)

How far are you from Loveland I have friends who train in that area? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Deb, Loveland is really far from where she's at. It's north of Denver a ways and just south of Ft. Collins on the north part of the state by the Wyoming border. Incidentally, I am considering moving to Loveland or thereabouts in a couple years. I know there used to be (still is?) a PSA group in that area. Is that still going on?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Deb, Loveland is really far from where she's at. It's north of Denver a ways and just south of Ft. Collins on the north part of the state by the Wyoming border. Incidentally, I am considering moving to Loveland or thereabouts in a couple years. I know there used to be (still is?) a PSA group in that area. Is that still going on?


Hi Maren

I believe the Loveland PSA club is defunct.
There is a new PSA club in the south Denver Metro area "Centennial Working Dogs" ? They did not plan on any trials in 2012 last I heard.
Black Diamond Schutzhund (DVG) Club in Erie also does some Mondio Ring training. They had an Easter BBQ training session a couple or weeks age where all the local clubs got together.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Thomas Barriano said:


> In Colorado
> Springs I said I was bitten by my own dog trying to break up a fight
> with a loose dog. I brought my dogs rabies tag and never had any repercussions. *Policy may differ in other areas.*


This happened to me in Washington, a training accident, and I never heard a word about it. Then again, it's possible in that situation that I never heard a word about it because the urgent care wrote down my address incorrectly (that came to light months later when they were trying to send me a bill) so it would have been hard for them to report the bite to animal control. They thought I lived all the way in Northern WA, when I lived in Oregon but was just training in WA.

Happened in Oregon, I was walking down the street and a dog got out of it's yard and attacked my dogs, I got bit in the mess. Told the ER and animal control did get involved. I think because of the situation though, and it not being my personal dog, because another time when I was bit in Oregon "breaking up a dog fight" (that's what I told them) there were no repercussions. 

However, down here in CA the same thing happened with my son, and he really was breaking up a dog fight between two of our dogs. We got a call from Animal Control, had to do a 10 day in house quarantine of the dog and show she was licensed and had current rabies, the whole thing. Not a problem really since she was licensed and the quarantine was in house, so no boarding fees or anything, but the hospital did report it, and AC did jump on it. I think we'd only been home for a few hours when I got the call. Talking to an AC officer I know, they said in CA they are required by law to investigate any reported bite so, and in their area that would have included an actual home visit to see the dog, see where it would be kept for quarantine, etc vs just a phone call.

So I think it definitely depends on where you live, and also who your AC officer is that takes the report.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Hi Kadi

I don't think I could live in California. Too many rules and Officials getting in every ones business 
Here in Colorado there seems to be more interaction between local LE and Animal Control and Schutzhund/Ring clubs. There is a least one
AC officer and several police that train with Denver Schutzhund/ Ring clubs


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Thomas Barriano said:


> I don't think I could live in California. Too many rules and Officials getting in every ones business


Agreed



> Here in Colorado there seems to be more interaction between local LE and Animal Control and Schutzhund/Ring clubs. There is a least one
> AC officer and several police that train with Denver Schutzhund/ Ring clubs


This is actually true in this area also, there are quite a few LE training with Sch/Ring clubs, and a few AC officers. But with the distances people travel to train, it's more than likely where you live and/or where the bite happened, aren't in their jurisdiction.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> This happened to me in Washington, a training accident, and I never heard a word about it. Then again, it's possible in that situation that I never heard a word about it because the urgent care wrote down my address incorrectly (that came to light months later when they were trying to send me a bill) so it would have been hard for them to report the bite to animal control. They thought I lived all the way in Northern WA, when I lived in Oregon but was just training in WA.
> 
> Happened in Oregon, I was walking down the street and a dog got out of it's yard and attacked my dogs, I got bit in the mess. Told the ER and animal control did get involved. I think because of the situation though, and it not being my personal dog, because another time when I was bit in Oregon "breaking up a dog fight" (that's what I told them) there were no repercussions.
> 
> ...


My current GF got bit by her CAT...and he was home quarantined, and actually had a strike against him..

most of the counties around here have strict laws concerning "strikes" some 2 and 3 strike rules...varying from neutering and muzzling, to being put down...

I knew someone whos dog got quarantined, and they neutered him, before letting his owner buy him back from AC....


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Hi Kadi
> 
> I don't think I could live in California. Too many rules and Officials getting in every ones business


Though I understand if it was an inadvertent bite (which I've gotten myself, from breaking up a dog fight), from a public health perspective, it is necessary to report it. I have a vet colleague of mine from Georgia who recently adopted a stray cat who was hanging out near a Starbucks. She brought the cat home and kept it away from the other cats for a few days, when it all the sudden started to act very strangely. When she was examining the cat, it bite the crap out of her hand. She euthanized the cat and not knowing the cat's history because she only had it a few days, she submitted it for rabies. It came back positive. She was already vaccinated for rabies (all vets are) and didn't need the full post exposure prophylaxactic treatment series, but it ended up being a really big deal. They had to do the post exposure treatment to anyone who was even remotely in contact with the stray cat at the Starbucks. Ended up being a big public health nightmare tracking everyone down, as you can imagine. If she was anyone else who got bit by her cat and didn't report it and wasn't vaccinated in time, she likely would have died of rabies. Pretty scary!


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Hi Kadi
> 
> I don't think I could live in California. Too many rules and Officials getting in every ones business


Though I understand if it was an inadvertent bite (which I've gotten myself, from breaking up a dog fight), from a public health perspective, it is necessary to report it. I have a vet colleague of mine from Georgia who recently adopted a stray cat who was hanging out near a Starbucks. She brought the cat home and kept it away from the other cats for a few days, when it all the sudden started to act very strangely. When she was examining the cat, it bite the crap out of her hand. She euthanized the cat and not knowing the cat's history because she only had it a few days, she submitted it for rabies. It came back positive. She was already vaccinated for rabies (all vets are) and didn't need the full post exposure prophylaxactic treatment series, but it ended up being a really big deal. They had to do the post exposure treatment to anyone who was even remotely in contact with the stray cat at the Starbucks. Ended up being a big public health nightmare tracking everyone down, as you can imagine. If she was anyone else who got bit by her cat and didn't report it and wasn't vaccinated in time, she likely would have died of rabies. Pretty scary!

Not saying it's any less of a pain on a training bite situation, but that's why it's the law.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Though I understand if it was an inadvertent bite (which I've gotten myself, from breaking up a dog fight), from a public health perspective, it is necessary to report it. I have a vet colleague of mine from Georgia who recently adopted a stray cat who was hanging out near a Starbucks. She brought the cat home and kept it away from the other cats for a few days, when it all the sudden started to act very strangely. When she was examining the cat, it bite the crap out of her hand. She euthanized the cat and not knowing the cat's history because she only had it a few days, she submitted it for rabies. It came back positive. She was already vaccinated for rabies (all vets are) and didn't need the full post exposure prophylaxactic treatment series, but it ended up being a really big deal. They had to do the post exposure treatment to anyone who was even remotely in contact with the stray cat at the Starbucks. Ended up being a big public health nightmare tracking everyone down, as you can imagine. If she was anyone else who got bit by her cat and didn't report it and wasn't vaccinated in time, she likely would have died of rabies. Pretty scary!
> 
> Not saying it's any less of a pain on a training bite situation, but that's why it's the law.


yeah...they report it the health dept, then refer it to AC, who then puts a strike against the dog as a dangerous dog, here at least in Lake County IL.

I imagine that varies from county to county..

Here they will put a strike against my dog if it bites another dog or cat, even in my own yard! even if it was in self-defense, if it bites, that is a strike...

they are nazis.. 

I found a stray cat once, bit almost everyone came to my apartment, 5 people including me....no one sought medical attention, sure glad that bastard didnt have rabies, coulda been really really messed up...


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

What happened to the club you were training with a few months ago Lindzey?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Jackie Lockard said:


> What happened to the club you were training with a few months ago Lindzey?


She hasn't trained with any club since she moved from Florida to Colorado several months ago.


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## Lindzey Wills (Apr 12, 2010)

Jackie, when I was in Florida I was training with Iron Dog there in Ocala/Morriston. After I came here to Colorado I have not been active with any club since there are none near me, I am in Cortez. Since I've been here I met up with a decoy, Randy, only once. Last time we spoke and I mentioned a Schutzhund club I was referring to Iron Dog, which at the time, I was involved with. Any previous conversations including/mentioning/referring to dog training clubs refers to Iron Dog. As of late 2011, I have been living in the state of Colorado where there are zero clubs of any kind which really really sucks. Hades hasn't been able to actually get the experience he needs because we're lacking the benefits of a decoy/club. Hopefully though, this starting our own club thingy will work out well enough and we'll be able to get back on course, right now we're just tracking and doing obedience :/

.....................

Reading through everyone's comments right now, this really blew up ^^"


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

Just curious. I had been under the impression that you'd been in Colorado for around a year by now, not a couple months, at least well after we had spoken. My apologies if that was incorrect.


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## Lindzey Wills (Apr 12, 2010)

It's okay, I wasn't helping anything with my attitude when we were talking before- can't blame you for not knowing when I never confirmed as much. Not quite a year, just about 6-7 months. Hopefully by a year someone in this town will be hiring 

Congrats on Abner's IPO1, I saw the video, he looked great!


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