# Dog attack



## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

This past weekend I was at a lake camping and my dog was attacked (in our site) by another dog that was roaming free. My guy was blind sided, but he managed to pin the other dog down. The owner of the other dog came running in and attempted to pull my dog off. My dog let go and attached himself to this guys leg (a bloody nightmare). Anyway, in the process my dogs eye was scratched and I took him to the vet today, not a good scene. He has all of a sudden become extremely dog aggressive. He was snarling and lunging at two passive dogs in the waiting area. Obviously, I want to nip this in the bud ASAP, so I'm wondering if anyone out there could help me with this issue?


Thanks 

Adam


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## Jason Caldwell (Dec 11, 2008)

There's no right way to do this but I've been in your shoes. I have a bitch who was once very dog friendly, she was attacked by another gsd and now she is very cautious of other dogs. If you can try and expose your dog to a beta male. It's what I would do. I would have hot collars on both dogs and no leashes. Don't have anything around like a toy they can contest and keep things moving along with lots of affirmative commands and playful tones.Your dog is scared of the dog world right now just like people are afraid of other people after getting assaulted. Quickly show your dog that other dogs don't always mean danger.
*
** Note: Please see following comments before considering 
this suggestion ***


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Jason Caldwell said:


> I would have hot collars on both dogs and no leashes. Don't have anything around like a toy they can contest and keep things moving along with lots of affirmative commands and playful tones.Your dog is scared of the dog world right now just like people are afraid of other people after getting assaulted. Quickly show your dog that other dogs don't always mean danger.


I don't know what your expericence has been, but to me this seems like a very, very bad idea. What is Plan B for when things go south and you have a dogfight, without even leashes to separate the dogs? What about when you zap one of the dogs and he decides the other dog did it and should pay for it?


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## Ryan Cole (Mar 5, 2009)

I've dealt with a dog agressive Dane/Lab bitch who was pit-bull-determined to destroy her target once she fixated on it.

I agree with Jason's idea, but agree with Anne that the technique is flawed.

Immediately being around other dogs of a known calm-confident disposition will be key, but more control would be neccesary.

I'm actually thinking of Cesar Milan's techniques as being pretty effective in this case, as long as you've, like you said, nipped it in the bud.

Don't give up hope. Perservere and your dog will trust your judgement.

That being said, don't let a bad situation come up anytime soon, or your dog will never trust you.


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## Kayla Barth (Apr 18, 2009)

I only thing that I would worry about would be the dog redirecting his fustration at the other dog at you when you correct him. One thing you could try is focusing his attention on you with the "watch me" command before he becomes fixated on the other dog. When ever you take him out in public you will have o be very proactive and quick with the command. Once you have his attention on you give him his favorite treat and save that treat for only those instances. I bet there will be others more expirenced chiming in. Best of luck to you 

KAyla


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## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

Jason Caldwell said:


> There's no right way to do this but I've been in your shoes. I have a bitch who was once very dog friendly, she was attacked by another gsd and now she is very cautious of other dogs. If you can try and expose your dog to a beta male. It's what I would do. I would have hot collars on both dogs and no leashes. Don't have anything around like a toy they can contest and keep things moving along with lots of affirmative commands and playful tones.Your dog is scared of the dog world right now just like people are afraid of other people after getting assaulted. Quickly show your dog that other dogs don't always mean danger.


eeeeeeeeekkkkkkkkkkkk.
Are you serious?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Most dog to dog aggression comes from fear. Occasionally it's based on dominance but that's very rare. It's a basic tenet of dog training that _"you can't punish fear."_ Imagine trying to stop a dog from showing fear at the approach of a thunderstorm by punishing him! [/FONT]" Lou Castle.

I would rather do this, and have done this, it's worked in every case I have worked on in the past. 
http://www.loucastle.com/critter.htm Works for crittering, and dog on dog aggression. 

Take time on this one, don't ever throw your dog into a situation you don't have 100% control over.


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## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

Thanks for your imput guys. Ted I'm going to give Lou's method a try. I was wondering after a dog is attacked like this, do any pack rank issue arrise? Chert my GSD is being a little less obedient and has growled at me a couple of times while laying on his bed. I have a good relationship with him and he has never displayed this type of behavior before. He is very confident and obedient, however he's a little stubborn at times.


Again thanks for your advise.

Adam


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## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

Adam Rawlings said:


> Thanks for your imput guys. Ted I'm going to give Lou's method a try. I was wondering after a dog is attacked like this, do any pack rank issue arrise? Chert my GSD is being a little less obedient and has growled at me a couple of times while laying on his bed. I have a good relationship with him and he has never displayed this type of behavior before. He is very confident and obedient, however he's a little stubborn at times.
> 
> 
> Again thanks for your advise.
> ...


Personally I would deal with his issues towards you first, and then tackle the task of the dog on dog stuff.

This new aggression to you could stem from the fact that you did not protect your dog from the fight. 
Maybe I'm right, or maybe I'm wrong.... but i'v heard of this before in ranking issues. If you show your dog that you will protect him, things might have turned out much different. 

I'm not picking at you for not doing more, I'm just saying in the dogs eyes, he may have been like "dude, your supposed to be my leader, and you wouldn't even kill that dog for me.... or the owner of that dog.

best of luck


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## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

Ted Efthymiadis said:


> Personally I would deal with his issues towards you first, and then tackle the task of the dog on dog stuff.
> 
> This new aggression to you could stem from the fact that you did not protect your dog from the fight.
> Maybe I'm right, or maybe I'm wrong.... but i'v heard of this before in ranking issues. If you show your dog that you will protect him, things might have turned out much different.
> ...


Thanks, I learned a few years ago what happens when you try to break up a dog fight...... My leg and arm are a constant reminder. What you say makes sense.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Do not use a Ecollar to break up any fights this is by far the stupidest advice I have personally heard someone give on here. Good god ](*,)


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## virginia reed (Mar 10, 2009)

i've dealt with a lot of dog fights and i've never had a dog become aggressive to other dogs in general - just sensitive about that specific dog that attacked him.

interesting - wonder what the difference is?


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## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

virginia reed said:


> i've dealt with a lot of dog fights and i've never had a dog become aggressive to other dogs in general - just sensitive about that specific dog that attacked him.
> 
> interesting - wonder what the difference is?


I've been asking myself the same question all evening. He is a fairly dominant dog and I figure it's a I'll get you before you get me type of reaction. His hackles never came up during the incident at the vet, so I wonder is this a fear issue or aggression? I just came back from an evening walk and obedience session and we passed several dogs without issue.... go figure. 

Mike, thanks for all your insight really helpfull.:?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Your dog needs a ton of exposure to very neutral dogs. From a distance at first and no contact at all. 
If this is a pup it could take a while or never depending on the temperment. 
An adult dog should be able to get thorugh it.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Give it time...


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Jason Caldwell said:


> There's no right way to do this but I've been in your shoes. I have a bitch who was once very dog friendly, she was attacked by another gsd and now she is very cautious of other dogs. If you can try and expose your dog to a beta male. It's what I would do. I would have hot collars on both dogs and no leashes. Don't have anything around like a toy they can contest and keep things moving along with lots of affirmative commands and playful tones.Your dog is scared of the dog world right now just like people are afraid of other people after getting assaulted. Quickly show your dog that other dogs don't always mean danger.


Very bad and dangerous idea.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Do not use a Ecollar to break up any fights this is by far the stupidest advice I have personally heard someone give on here. Good god ](*,)


Ditto.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

IMEO, this is not a good place to use "crittering." An expert trainer can do it, but to the average person, it will intensify the problem.

Here is my dog-vs-dog aggressive (DA) pit bull offleash at the dog park:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKczpiYauYs&feature=related

If you are interested I'll repost training protocol, or just send a PM.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Do not use a Ecollar to break up any fights this is by far the stupidest advice I have personally heard someone give on here. Good god ](*,)


You get what you pay for on here


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## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

Chris McDonald said:


> You get what you pay for on here


Then why even bother?


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Originally Posted by *Mike Scheiber*  
Do not use a Ecollar to break up any fights this is by far the stupidest advice I have personally heard someone give on here. Good god










Chris McDonald said:


> You get what you pay for on here


The OP was a bit dishartend that this is all I offered this coming from somone who in there ID has "personal protection"
What question will there be when the dog makes the wrong decision and bites a kid. 
It chaps my ass when the PPD people ask elementary dog behavior questions but own a dog that is trained to bite people.
That stupid Patric guy comes to mind that poor mofo had no clue. Now hes on that goofy PPD board with Emilio and some others from here talking smack about sport and still has no idea how to potty train his dog.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Adam Rawlings said:


> Then why even bother?


It makes for fun reading. All I’m getting at is any retart who knows nothing can give advice on these chat rooms, even me. It could be hard to filter the advice.


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## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Originally Posted by *Mike Scheiber*
> Do not use a Ecollar to break up any fights this is by far the stupidest advice I have personally heard someone give on here. Good god
> 
> 
> ...


Mike,

Or should I call you god? Nice try, you obviously have a problem with PPD and their owners and thats fine. I wasn't the least bit dishartend by your post. However, I will share my personal thoughts on the matter (since you have no issue doing it). Anyone can be a internet quarterback and shoot down others opinions without a viable alternative. You seem to want to lump everyone in PPD world with this Emillo guy. I would never make any dumb ass comments or cut down anyone elses choosen training disipline. I pride myself as expert in fly fishing and belong to a forum similar to this one. I use my knowledge to help others not cut them down and I feel pretty good doing it. If it makes you feel good slagging PPD then fly at it, but don't rain on my parade in the process.

Should I have spent years studying dog behavior and training manuals before purchasing a bitting dog? What will happen if your dog bites a kid? I have had dogs all my life and this is the first time I've encountered this particular problem. I guess sport dog owners would never ask a stupid question like this ehh? I guess you were born with all the knowledge in the world, well then it''s a pleasure to be graced by your presence. I could give him a harsh correction for his aggression until he quit, but I thought I would pick the brains of people far more experienced then me for a better solution. If your ass is chaped well then get some baby powder. Don't disrespect me because I will give you an earfull everytime and don't assume I can't handle my dog.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Originally Posted by *Mike Scheiber*
> Do not use a Ecollar to break up any fights this is by far the stupidest advice I have personally heard someone give on here. Good god
> 
> 
> ...


Mike, my comment was meant for the Ecollar no leash advice, not at your response. I have real limited knowledge but an aggressive dog, Ecollars and no leash just sounds like advice worth a bit less then what Adam paid for it. Whats an “OP”?


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

Original Poster


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Should I have spent years studying dog behavior and training manuals before purchasing a bitting dog? ...........Right, maybe not years, probably a lot longer than you did, not necessarily training manuals but way more experience in someway …. I was there


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

todd pavlus said:


> Original Poster


Aaahhh, original poster, thanks. I spend more time trying to figure these short cuts out then reading posts sometimes.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Come on Mike, don't put all PPD people in the same boat. You have never heard ME fully bash the sport and agility peeps even thought I HATE THE SCHUTZHUND DVG clan! I hear where you are coming from, and you're right in many regards...but can't broadbrush all..........:-k


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## Tina Rempel (Feb 13, 2008)

Ted Efthymiadis said:


> ....
> I'm not picking at you for not doing more, I'm just saying in the dogs eyes, he may have been like "dude, your supposed to be my leader, and you wouldn't even kill that dog for me.... or the owner of that dog.
> 
> best of luck


 
When my one male was just under 4-months old I took him camping. Nice horse camp, all dogs must be on leash, until some idiot deliverance types showed up and let their pack of 6 dogs lose. I had Abe on leash in one hand and a pitch fork in the other. Pitch forks work well when beating off dogs......... Not one touched either of us and they all gave us lots of room the rest of the weekend. The idiots stayed away too.

It took him a VERY long time to get over "dog aggression". But he never reacted to me negatively. Agreed, I would be concerned over that first, work the dog issue second. And for goodness sakes, as others have mentioned, do NOT use the ecollar to "fix" this.


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## Sarah ten Bensel (Mar 16, 2008)

My female got bitten and was very sensitive/reactive for a while afterward. I basically used Bob Scott's method ---being near other non-reactive dogs, rewarding calm behavior--Giving the dog a command calmly to sit and look at me. This took time and we used super stable/non reactive dogs. It was important for me to be calm too.
I would hypothesize that ecollar correction--a dog may think the zap is coming from the other dog or increases the anxiety for the dog and they learn to suppress and not cope with the anxiety. Dogs can actually become MORE reactive and unnerved and more likely to bite.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Do you work much formal obedience? If so, start working him hard and fast. Have someone with a non aggressive dog on hand, but at a distance, not making eye contact or even facing your dog. Work your dog, the second he starts fixating on the other dog, correct him back to you, keep working him until he relaxes. Gradually bring the other dog in closer until your dog will work around him and ignore him, bring in more dogs, etc.. Put him on a down stay and have the other dog work around him, but not close, correct him if he stiffens or growls or trys to get up, make him stay until he relaxes.

Or, work him as usual, and the second he gets aggressive, correct him hard enough to make him knock that shit off, and remember who his god is and that he must do as you say, regardless of what he thinks.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

A bit off topic...but
The rescue folks in Arizona? that had most of the Michael Vic dogs had one that was very dog aggressive. What did they do to correct it? They faced it off with another of the Vic Pits, THEN declared "this was going to be a hard case". ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,)


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## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

susan tuck said:


> Do you work much formal obedience? If so, start working him hard and fast. Have someone with a non aggressive dog on hand, but at a distance, not making eye contact or even facing your dog. Work your dog, the second he starts fixating on the other dog, correct him back to you, keep working him until he relaxes. Gradually bring the other dog in closer until your dog will work around him and ignore him, bring in more dogs, etc.. Put him on a down stay and have the other dog work around him, but not close, correct him if he stiffens or growls or trys to get up, make him stay until he relaxes.
> 
> Or, work him as usual, and the second he gets aggressive, correct him hard enough to make him knock that shit off, and remember who his god is and that he must do as you say, regardless of what he thinks.


 I take him out for an obedience session three or four times a week for about an hour. I always work him in different locations with various types of distractions. I use a ball as a reward, so I always have his undivided attention no matter whats happening around us. I will give this a shot tommorow and hold off rewarding him until the session is over?

Cheers


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Well, it sort of depends. When I reward with the ball during ob, I don't throw it, I whip it out and play tug with it. IF this is what you do, then I would say reward as usual, BUT if you throw the ball for the dog it wouldn't be a good idea if other dogs are in the vicinity. Still, I would think it would be important to reward if the dog is doing well and not breaking around other dogs, so at the very least, verbal praise and if the dog is at all food motivated, maybe some bait? The other thing though, is I would reward, but keep it fast and not really break from the ob, if you know what I mean. You don't want his focus to go away from you. 

This has worked for me, but I have not had a really dog aggressive dog, so please take what I say with a grain of salt. I have had male dogs start to act stupid and aggressive around other males, but I have always been successful at quickly nipping that crap in the bud (better lucky than good, I guess!).


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I would like to ask some questions of the "OP" (original poster) LOL

How was your dog around other dogs before this, and don't tell me about the other house dogs, as they do not count.

Please describe his first reaction to them, as far as he noticed them right away, to the other side was he noticed them when he was finished doing whatever it was he was doing, or something in the middle. Also how much interaction with strange dogs did he have before this. Please include encounters with local dogs when out for a walk and such.

Please describe his body posture at those times. ALL BEFORE this incedent.

THis will help somewhat, as without this information, I would only be wildly guessing as to what you could do.

In my experience, what your dog experienced is a pretty tough thing to recover from, and he will probably have this forever as far as strange dogs go.

I have worked with an awful lot of dog aggro dogs in the past, and there are many different degrees to which they come around. It is a pain in the ass and it is like a plague that spreads from one dog to another. I feel for you in this situation.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Please describe his body posture at those times. I feel for you in this situation.[/quote]

Jeff, what did you have a near death experience or something? You born again? They change your medication? Maybe this is not even you. Maybe the real Jeff is in that hospital or something. This might be his girlfriend of someone trying to play Jeff.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I would like to ask some questions of the "OP" (original poster) LOL
> 
> How was your dog around other dogs before this, and don't tell me about the other house dogs, as they do not count.
> 
> ...


Good post. I'm an intake shelter's "dog-aggro dog" person (besides dealing with so-called "problem" companion dogs), have been for a long time, and I agree that it can indeed be like a plague. I'd be careful about what suggestions you follow, because there is some bad advice in this thread (and then the usual completely off-topic and useless posts flaming each other). 

And don't do anything quickly. Doing what Bob Scott suggests is a very good idea. 

And posting all the info that Jeff mentions.


eta
Hmmm. Never thought I'd ever say that exact sentence.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Anne Vaini said:


> IMEO, this is not a good place to use "crittering." An expert trainer can do it, but to the average person, it will intensify the problem.


Perhaps you're not familiar with my version of using the Ecollar to "critter" a dog. You can read it HERE.  It's easily done by "the average person," and does not require "an expert trainer." Many people have done it quite successfully. 



Sarah ten Bensel said:


> I would hypothesize that ecollar correction--a dog may think the zap is coming from the other dog or increases the anxiety for the dog and they learn to suppress and not cope with the anxiety. Dogs can actually become MORE reactive and unnerved and more likely to bite.


Yes, this is correct. I don't use or recommend this method. My crittering protocol is quite different. Ted, thanks for bringing it up. 

My suggestion is two pronged. Use my crittering method and Bob Scott's method both.


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## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I would like to ask some questions of the "OP" (original poster) LOL
> 
> How was your dog around other dogs before this, and don't tell me about the other house dogs, as they do not count.
> 
> ...


 Jeff,

When I first got my dog (just over a year ago) he was a little aggressive towards the sight of other dogs during walks. His body posture and would stiffen and his ears would move forward (similar to his prey drive posture) and he would focus on the other dog intensely. This reaction went away after a month or so of routine walks. I don't think he was socialized with other dogs outside of the kennel he was raised in for the first 10 months of his life. On our daily walks we can pass by dogs and he doesn't even aknowledge them (even the little dogs barking their fool heads off at him).

When he is off leash and interacting with other dogs that are neutral he does the butt sniff thing and most of the time he loses intrest and walks away. His body posture is relaxed, his ears are up and his tail is up and wagging. He is a tall dog and weighs about 95lbs, so just his size alone intimidates some dogs to the point of dropping on their backs and rolling over (no change in previously mentioned posture). 

However, if he incounters a dominant dog during the butt sniff he will stiffen up and put his head over the neck and try to place his front legs on the back of the dog. There has also been the occasional time that he has mounted the other dog. At the first signs of these displays I will call him back to me and move on. After learning the tell tale signs I don't give him the oppurtunity to progess that far. He sees several dogs daily, but he only interacts with other dogs occasionally.

On a side note:

I don't know if it applies to this problem, but when we are camping (mostly remote areas not many people) he is very territorial and is very aggressive towards passing bears and coyotes. He will stand stiff as they approach and bark like he does during protection work. To date no animals have accepted his challange.

Adam


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Ok cool, I have another question about the head over the shoulder mounting thing.

THis is not easy for me to verbalize so bear with me and if I make no sense just tell me.

When your dog meets a more dominant personality, in what manner does he go about the whole head over the shoulder/mounting thing ??

Dominance has modifiers in my world. LOL There are dogs that get all stiff when they meet some dogs, and then there is a period of time before they start all that nonsense. it is usually because the other dog is following them.

Then there is where they are both trying to do this right away, and it has a sort of desparation to it, and one or both will continue this BS for quite a while before it gets stupid and people usually break it up.

HOW the dog goes about this is what I look for. Usually the head and mounting thing means that the dog is dominant, but some form of insecure. could be very little, could be a lot.

The challenging the coyotes and bears, but not going after them, for me is on the (smart) insecure side.

I try and figure out with absolutely clear eyes what is going on with a dog like this. I think that you are gonna have a dog that is going to go after dogs if he gets a chance for a long time. I know, duh right ???

I do not try and beat the crap out of a dog for being insecure, but I WILL beat the crap out of a dog for ignoring me.

The things I would take out of what I have read so far is 

1, Get a HELL of a recall.

2, Pick a method of compulsion you are comfortable with, and read and talk about and write notes while you are doing the work with getting the OB in line.

3, go to someone that does OB when you THINK you are ready, and see what they think of it. BOMB proof recalls and stays/static positions are the most important.

4, Honestly judge their reaction, and what your dog did in front of them. If they are like DAMM thats nice, but the eyes are not really impressed work on it some more.

5, If you get the DAMM reaction and it is for real, ask to see a demo dog work, as maybe they suck. LOL

6, If their demo dog is real nice, then use all that you have learned in this time about the compulsion method you are going to use, and start with dogs far away, which is what someone has already said.

If you take your time and do this with eyes open, you really can get a dog to get over some of it, and not have the explosions at the vets office, always real pleasant I remember.

The key to all this is remembering how your dog was with other dogs and how insecure he actually was.

Pretty sure I made a mess of this. I cannot type fast enough to keep up with the brain.


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## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

_When your dog meets a more dominant personality, in what manner does he go about the whole head over the shoulder/mounting thing ??_ 

He will usually meet the dog face to face then move to the side of the other dog for a mutual butt sniff. At this point if the dog postures or pushes into him, he will imediately place his head over the neck. If the dog circles away from him or remains in place he will start climbing the dog or attempt to mount.

_There are dogs that get all stiff when they meet some dogs, and then there is a period of time before they start all that nonsense. it is usually because the other dog is following them._

If another dog starts following him it doesn't seem to bother him much. If the dog is passive he does a happy trot and if the dogs is dominant then he starts marking things. If the other dog marks his spots then it's back to the nonsense.

_2, Pick a method of compulsion you are comfortable with, and read and talk about and write notes while you are doing the work with getting the OB in line._

I have used the Koehler method when training my dogs in the past, but so many people say it's out of date. I wonder if Koehler's level of compulsion is right for the situation?

Thanks

Adam


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## Kristina Senter (Apr 4, 2006)

There are many people on this board that could handle this situation in their sleep. The problem is, no matter how many of them give specific advise, they don't know the dog or you and they will not be there to help you. Why not just hire a good behaviorist that will actually be there, with the experience, knowledge and reaction time to actually help you through the process?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

The entire PLANET can kiss my ass Koehler methods are out of date. LOL

Ceasar Milan could be Bills Mexican twin. LOL

There was another guy in the late 80's early 90's I THINK that was hawking dog training videos and it was straight out of Koehler.

Steph has an old Keohler book on dog training, and the intro describes a typical dog training class TO THIS DAY.

I had forgotten about that intro, pretty cool, he is slamming on the same idiots I make fun of. LOL


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Koehler method for dog aggression
Silp a wooden dowel in a length of garden hose and bring it down across the aggressive dog's nose with convincing power. 
Still got those book. Bought em new too!  :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> Koehler method for dog aggression
> Silp a wooden dowel in a length of garden hose and bring it down across the aggressive dog's nose with convincing power.
> Still got those book. Bought em new too!  :lol: :lol: :lol:


 I was kind of thinking the long line and throw chain.


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## jim kirkendall (Jan 31, 2009)

I have used e-collars in a similar situation and it worked.I had blueticks that were hard tree dogs.(coonhounds). Some would fight the other dogs as they came on the tree . We used e-collars and associated it with a word command to stay on the tree and NOT fight!they were definitely off leash and free.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Adam Rawlings said:


> I was kind of thinking the long line and throw chain.


The throw chain can still be an effective tool if used correctly! ;-)


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> The throw chain can still be an effective tool if used correctly! ;-)


You have no idea how glad I am to hear that. ha ha.

DFrost


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

and i still have one--somewhere...

i find i have to fight myself as i attempt to train all motivationally--i want to go back to Koehler's method's. a quick correction is worth a million treats. but doesn't last as long. you've been there bob


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

The hell it doesn't. if the dog understands is where you get in trouble with it not lasting.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

you are exactly right jeff. i think. but this is where i always get sideways w/koehler vs all motivational training: i just don't trust my timing w/marker training, while i do trust my timing w/a correction when it's needed. 

i WANT to be 100% motivational, but i haven't gotten there yet by a long shot. as is clear from my previous post and this one.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

ann freier said:


> and i still have one--somewhere...
> 
> i find i have to fight myself as i attempt to train all motivationally--i want to go back to Koehler's method's. a quick correction is worth a million treats. but doesn't last as long. you've been there bob


Have to agree with Jeff on this one.
With the motivational training the dog is allowed to think through the situation, thus learning more. JMHO.

David
The "reach out and touch someone" will always have merit........and a ton cheaper then the e-collar.  ;-)


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Have to agree with Jeff on this one.
> With the motivational training the dog is allowed to think through the situation, thus learning more. JMHO.


The term "motivational training" varies from trainer to trainer and from day to day. Dogs that I train with the Ecollar are "motivated to learn." Dogs that are trained with conventional methods with leash and correction collars are "motivated to learn." Dogs that are trained with the KMODT are "motivated to learn." If they were not, they would not progress in their training. 

In my work the dog is guided into the desired behavior rather than have the trainer stand around and wait while the dog "thinks thorugh the situation." If you have months, heck years for the problem under discussion with some dogs to wait, then using less effective methods (based on how long they take to give effective, long lasting results) they're great. But dogs have a relatively short lifespan and I don't have the time to wait for such for training to take hold. 



Bob Scott said:


> David, The "reach out and touch someone" will always have merit........and a ton cheaper then the e-collar.


The Ecollar IS a "reach out and touch someone" method. The throw chain is quite limited in the distance that can be reached with it and it depends quite a bit on the skill of the user. Someone using an Ecollar can reach out to 1/2 mile (farther in some cases) and NEVER miss. Throw chains are indeed cheaper than Ecollars but nowhere near as accurate and the level of correction they provide is adjustable only over a narrow range.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I do use ecollars. I still carry a throw chain and a throw silver dollar. Yeah I know it's antiquated, but it works. Granted, distance is limited and the accuracy isn't as good as with an ecollar.

DFrost


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Hi,

Have just spotted this thread and had a read through.... how are you getting on with your dog now, any progress?

I've had fairly recent experience with my current gsd.... his first attack by another dog was when he was three months old, then again at four months old.... nothing too serious but certainly disturbing enough for both he and I.

He's two and a half now and hasn't had too many other thumpings for at least a year now , the last dog attack on him - I attacked the offender whilst it had him down and soon as he managed up, he took off after the attacker. That was quite a close call I would add - that dog eyeballed me and I could see he was thinking about it, I was lucky!

My dog is still sociable with most other dogs - he's had lots of encounters with strange dogs whilst out and about, particularly as he is quite an outgoing dog.

I think you need good ob, control and also a good no big deal attitude immediately after the event. By that I mean - don't over fuss him, or show signs of stress or sympathy, I acted like nothing much had happened and immediately carried on with what I was doing whilst scanning him for injury etc. after all these events, without his knowledge of my doing so.

Also if I anticipate a potential problem, I call my dog to heel and keep myself inbetween him and the other dog, if the other dog is so pushy as to wanting to have a go - you can generally recognise this type of approach, then he has my support to defend himself.

My dog occasionally gets leary of other dogs, and if he starts a lunge and kicking off or other nonsense whilst on lead - he gets a couple of sharp corrections and I face him if need be - then we're all cool again. 

That probably all reads like mumbo jumbo, but just thought I'd share an experience.

You hear all the time.... if your dog is attacked by another and particularly when it is young, that you're going to have social problems with this dog.... I personally don't buy that (depending of course on the severity or not of injury).

Much depends on the training and relationship you have with your dog and how you deal with these situations as they occur. In my case, I try to maintain a degree of confidence in my dog and a couple of sharp corrections for his attention reminding him I am in control. This hasn't been the only dog I've done things like this way.

Didn't have much in the way of these kind of troubles though when having been out with two gsds and two jrts, wasn't something that cropped up a lot lol 

Just sharing.


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## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

Maggie,

I recieved some great advise from Ann Vaini on marker type training too correct the issues we are having. He was dominant towards other dogs prior to the incident, so it's been interesting to say the least.](*,) 

Things have proggressed well, but there is still work to be done. I have used a combination of pepperoni sticks or his ball to mark his focus on me while other dogs are around or passing by. 

Coincidentally, this marker training has come in handy for cleaning up his obedience as well.:grin: I can now walk him in areas with other dogs without the snarling and his hackles going up. Right now I have to stop and have him sit if I want him to make eye contact with me, but he will ignore passing dogs. For the most part he will ignore other dogs while heeling, unless other dogs are pulling towards him. After one quick leash correction he is back on track. I really need to work on the focus while heeling though,. 

My vet has allowed me to sit in the waiting area to work on close contact with dogs. I have done three sessions with the muzzle and pepperoni sticks and things have improved. It has been hard to keep his focus on me when dogs pass, but I can regain his attention quickly and mark the behavior without all the BS. I can tell he still wants to go after them, but he knows better now. 

I have incountered a couple of dogs that were off leash and not under control. I have put him in the down position and calmly sent the dogs packing (with an earfull for the owner), this seems to have built up some of Chert's confidence in me to handle the situation. During a bite work session last week with other dogs present he could care less and was focused on the task at hand.

Adam


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

It's good to hear folks are getting on


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## Paul Fox (May 25, 2009)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Do not use a Ecollar to break up any fights this is by far the stupidest advice I have personally heard someone give on here. Good god ](*,)


Agreed. They clearly say on the Dogtra info that it is not to be used for this.


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## Guest (Jul 16, 2009)

Paul Fox said:


> Agreed. They clearly say on the Dogtra info that it is not to be used for this.


Not to mention that it just doesn't make any kind of sense.


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