# Montana Bill Will Seek to Ban and Euthanize Pit Bulls!



## Terry Fisk (Jul 26, 2007)

Dated today: The American Kennel Club’s Government Relations Department is expecting legislation in Montana that will seek to prohibit the ownership, harboring, or keeping of dogs described as "pit bulls." The legislation defines "pit bulls" to include Staffordshire Bull Terriers, American Staffordshire Terriers, and "any dog that has the physical characteristics that substantially conform to the standards established for those breeds by the American Kennel Club." If the bill is passed and signed into law, all such dogs would be seized and euthanized. The AKC vehemently opposes breed-specific legislation and encourages all concerned dog owners in Montana to contact their elected representatives and express their strong opposition to this draconian yet hard-to-enforce legislation.

See the following link for the rest of the story and how Montana "bully" owners can help fight this bill http://www.akc.org/news/index.cfm?article_id=3697


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

I'm not a fan of Pits but I think it's absolutely wrong to seized current pets. If they want to implement a ban then do it starting with dogs born after a certain a year from now and then create a one strike and out seizure law. Meaning if the dog is at large and attacks a human it's put to sleep without question. If the dog is at large and fights with another dog - regardless of who starts it then the owners of BOTH dogs should be fined.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

In Ohio, there was a similar law - on a city level. 

Animal Control came to a family's house and EUTHANIZED a pet BLACK LAB ON THE SPOT - even in front of the kids. 

I compiled list of breeds commonly mistaken for "pit bulls." It was over 200 breeds.

Scary stuff!


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## kristin tresidder (Oct 23, 2008)

Chris Michalek said:


> If they want to implement a ban then do it starting with dogs born after a certain a year from now and then create a one strike and out seizure law.


lovely attitude... i'm sure if they wanted to ban your breed, you would also be in favor of banning those born after a certain year...


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Chris Michalek said:


> I'm not a fan of Pits but I think it's absolutely wrong to seized current pets. If they want to implement a ban then do it starting with dogs born after a certain a year from now and then create a one strike and out seizure law. Meaning if the dog is at large and attacks a human it's put to sleep without question. If the dog is at large and fights with another dog - regardless of who starts it then the owners of BOTH dogs should be fined.


Hi Chris,

And do you think they'll stop at Pit Bulls?!?! What breed will be next? Yours/mine? And having ACO's determining what a "Pit Bull' breed type is, is scary stuff!! Annie cites one example of a black lab being labeled and euthanized because it had "the look." The breed is a easy target because of the number of idiot dog owners....can't fix stupid! But I have 20 plus former years of experience with the breed that dispels some of those myths. Better behaved those most people's children 

I'm all in favor of "non-specific" breed type laws governing vicious and dangerous dogs! No matter what the breed. I hope Montana, AKC and others will fight tooth and nail to stop this in it's tracks! Because after the Pit Bulls are gone they may decide on "our" breed next.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

kristin tresidder said:


> lovely attitude... i'm sure if they wanted to ban your breed, you would also be in favor of banning those born after a certain year...



I'm not for banning anything but IF it's going to happen then current dogs should be "grandfathered" into the system. IF banning were to happen then a line would have to be drawn somewhere and that should be a litter of pups that hasn't even been conceived at the inception of the law. Given the situation you don't think that is fair?

If they were to ban Rottweiler in Phoenix then I would move before I would give up my dog. If I didn't have one I wouldn't get a pup born after the deadline date because then it's MY fault for owning the banned breed.

The best way to deal with the breed issue is to consider ALL breeds as a dangerous weapon. Like a gun, if somebody get's shot and it your gun then you need to be question and held partially if not fully responsible.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Breed bans are bad biz all the way around. Where does it stop or what goes next - all moleser (sic, sorry) breeds including Rotties and Mastiffs? GSDs, Malis and Dutchies can't be too far away from being banned either if you go down that road. What really chaps my hide is whenever a politician pulls this crap it's all about headlines, scaring stupid people and garnering the votes come election time. To hell with whether or not it's actually a good idea.

By the way, I've known a hell of a lot of really nice pitty types in my life, there is absolutely no good reason in the world to ban this type of dog.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Heck, Border Collies are banned in the ENTIRE country of Italy! Italy has extensive national breed bans.


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## Amy Swaby (Jul 16, 2008)

I could never live in Italy don't they have like 92 breeds banned now including the CORGI?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

If ANY dog bites someone without reason, Shoot the owner and rehab/rehome the dog.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Guess what, gang...don't EVER go to Fairfield, Iowa! Apparently this little podunk town of 10,000 has banned (drum roll please!):




> (L) Doberman Pincher;
> (M) Pit Bull Terrier, American Pit Bull, Staffordshire Terrier, or any other dog whose appearance and
> characteristic of breed is commonly regarded as Pit Bull, Pit Bull Dog, or Pit Bull Terrier or a combination
> of such breeds;
> ...



From page 63 of http://cityoffairfieldiowa.com/DocumentFiles/171.pdf

Deerhounds?!? About the gentlest dog I know. I wouldn't be able to own a single dog in my house, not even the Great Dane/lab foster we have. :evil: So if someone's overweight golden retriever or lab gets over 100 lbs, they are toast! How completely ridiculous. This is why we cannot support BSL any in form, Chris. As a Rottweiler and Malinois owner, this is reality. Rotties are just behind pit bulls and they are often banned together. Of course, they also banned any venomous or constricting snake...which would include...ALL of them. :roll:


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## Rebecca Santana (May 16, 2007)

Wow I'm from Montana and it truly suprises me that they are proposing any BSL. We often had a live and let live attitude especially because growing up cows outnumbered people (back then) 3 cows to 1 person. All the same breed bans reminds me of racism in people. I think they need to concentrate on enforcing current laws on people to treating animals and all justice needs to be done to irresponsible dog owners not the dog. Just my two cents now I'd better call my state representative because he has always been a reasonable guy.


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

Chris- I'm surpised at your attitude. You own Rotties, and a Malinois......both breeds WAY more prone to bite than a GOOD SOUND APBT. Also, the rotties are usually first or second the ban lists after APBT's. 

I can't believe that a fellow working dog enthusiast is ACTUALLY borderline supportive of Breed bans when the majority of OUR working breeds are ON those lists. Most places that ban APBT's have restrictions or BANS on Rotties, GSD's, Am. Bulldogs and aything that looks like the above breeds to the un-knowing un-trained STUPID eye of 95% of AC officers across the nation. 

Did you realize the score of the APBT's tested by the American Temperament Testing Society??? Here are some statistics taken directly from their website.......The first number is the amount of dogs tested, the second is the amount of dog's passed, the third is the amount failed and the last is the percentage that passed the test.....Compared to other breeds.... 



> *AMERICAN PIT BULL TERRIER 586 494 92 84.3%*


Th Am. Staff which is essentially the same thing as Am. staffs can be Dual registered as APBT's with the UKC. 


> AMERICAN STAFFORDSHIRE TERRIER 548 457 91 83.4%


Other Common Breeds.....


> BELGIAN TERVUREN 421 328 93 77.9%
> BORDER COLLIE 238 191 47 80.3%
> CANE CORSO 75 59 16 78.7%
> CARDIGAN WELSH CORGI 61 46 15 75.4%
> ...


This shows you that MOST breeds fall UNDER the percentage that APBT's adn Am. Staffs are at. NOT all breeds but most working bred breeds. 

I nevr figured that another working dog person wo owns Rotties would spout off with nonsense like you did......it's a sad thing and know that your breed's time will come...pretty soon all we'll be able to own are small nasty little ankle biters if we let the legislature keep pushing breed bans through the system. 

Courtney


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

You're missing the point on my attitude. I'm NOT a proponent of any kind of BSL but IF it's going to happen it's absolutely wrong to take existing dogs from homes. What I was saying is IF they are going to ban a breed, any breed then it need to start with pup from a future litter at a future date whereby the pup have yet to be conceived. I would say the same thing about any potential breed ban. 

What's wrong with thinking like that?

So I don't like pit bulls, lot's of people dont, I don't like chihuahua and a bunch of other dogs either. That doesn't mean I want them gone, it just means I would never own one. That said, I said the same thing about pugs until my wife brought one home 11 years ago, now I think they are cool little dogs.





Courtney Guthrie said:


> Chris- I'm surpised at your attitude. You own Rotties, and a Malinois......both breeds WAY more prone to bite than a GOOD SOUND APBT. Also, the rotties are usually first or second the ban lists after APBT's.
> 
> I can't believe that a fellow working dog enthusiast is ACTUALLY borderline supportive of Breed bans when the majority of OUR working breeds are ON those lists. Most places that ban APBT's have restrictions or BANS on Rotties, GSD's, Am. Bulldogs and aything that looks like the above breeds to the un-knowing un-trained STUPID eye of 95% of AC officers across the nation.
> 
> ...


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## Eros Kopliku (Jan 30, 2008)

Surprised to see this comming from a state like Montana. It will likely not pass, but the fact that they are considering it is repugnant enough.


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## Christen Adkins (Nov 27, 2006)

Some contact information to voice your opposition to this bill...


> ROBYN DRISCOLL (D) HD 51 Billings, MT has submitted a bill to ban pit bulls in MT to legislative drafting. The bill # is HB 1087.
> 
> We need as many people as possible to politely contact her and suggest that a reckless owner/dangerous dog bill is a better way to go than a breed discriminatory bill. The bill is just in drafting and has not been introduced yet.
> 
> ...





> Posted on January 7, 2009 by stopbslcom
> Montana HB 191 (previously draft LC 1087) will ban “pit bulls” statewide. As of today, it has been referred to the Local Government Committee.
> Local Government Committee
> Meets Tuesdays, Thursdays, 3 p.m., Room 172
> ...


Make your voices heard. It may not be "your" state, but your state may be next.


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## David Scholes (Jul 12, 2008)

Eros Kopliku said:


> Surprised to see this comming from a state like Montana. It will likely not pass, but the fact that they are considering it is repugnant enough.


Montana is one of the last places I would expect a bill like this to pass. If it passes in Montana, of all places, we are doomed. Most other states should be easy to pass in comparison.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Anne Vaini said:


> Heck, Border Collies are banned in the ENTIRE country of Italy! Italy has extensive national breed bans.


That's because they are afraid the kilt will be fashion mens wear in the future!

BSL is only taking place because responsible dog owners want to sit on their thumbs and do NOTHING when rumors and actions like this take place. Let someone else speak out and take a public stand. It's easy to cry on a forum like this...do something more open. Write to city fathers and community action folks, stir the pot! It should be a nationwide action, maybe started here, to bust the BSL actors once and for all. 

Start by developing local chapters of folks with working dog knowledge to end this thing. When dog fighting goes on and folks don't speak out, this is a step towards taking our dogs. What will they do next, outlaw APPDA, PSA, PPD/PSD activities, Schutzhund, and more? 

From my cold dead hands will you get my animals!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

My letter is already half written. I'll finish it and e-mail it tonight. 

Chris- You have to FIGHT BSL and not stand by and say IF they do it, it should be this way. Just because it's not your breed today doesn't mean it won't be your breed tomorrow. You're right, I don't get it, all the people I know would never say IF they do it...blah blahblah......They say "Shit, the stupid morons in office are doing it again, better write a letter and make ourselves heard."

Breed bans don't stop people from owning them, they just stop the responsible owners from owning them. 

Courtney


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

I have written many letters here in Delaware. I have also made several phone calls to folks who are in positions to do something. It will always be a battle, the battle to have working dogs, dog training, and hte freedom we have of being with folks who enjoy things which others wish to control.


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

> I have written many letters here in Delaware. I have also made several phone calls to folks who are in positions to do something. It will always be a battle, the battle to have working dogs, dog training, and hte freedom we have of being with folks who enjoy things which others wish to control.


I just don't get how a fellow working dog owner/Rottie owner can have the attitude about BSL that Chris does. If we allow them....They'll take away all dogs capable of working and we'll all have to try and train a Chihuahua to do bitework...It won't happen IF I have a say in it. 

Courtney


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Guess what, gang...don't EVER go to Fairfield, Iowa! Apparently this little podunk town of 10,000 has banned (drum roll please!):
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That one isn't about temperament - saves $$ if AC crates, vans, holding pens can be smaller!


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Anne Vaini said:


> In Ohio, there was a similar law - on a city level.
> 
> Animal Control came to a family's house and EUTHANIZED a pet BLACK LAB ON THE SPOT - even in front of the kids.
> 
> ...


Scary for sure .. 

A good reason to have a pointy eared dog! How could a animal control officer mix up a goofy black lab with a pit is beyond me.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

I deleted the photo because I lost the website I found it on. It was a site about mismarks in labs. They had photos of black and tan, and brindle labs. Another photos of a purebred, AKC pedigreed lab looked exactly like a chocolate APBT. I'm VERY good on identifying bully breeds, and I was floored.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Anne Vaini said:


> I deleted the photo because I lost the website I found it on. It was a site about mismarks in labs. They had photos of black and tan, and brindle labs. Another photos of a purebred, AKC pedigreed lab looked exactly like a chocolate APBT. I'm VERY good on identifying bully breeds, and I was floored.



I uploaded the photo to my flickr ages ago so I woulnd't lose it. I'm beating myself up for not saving the orginial URL where I found it.


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## Christen Adkins (Nov 27, 2006)

I think this is the website you are talking about, Anne.

http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/mismarks.html


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/findpit.html


I picked number 12 cuz that sure as hell don't look like a rott.


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

All sarcasm aside MOST average people can't pick the APBT out of that lineup...can you without cheating?? 

Geoff- APBT's are usually more GOOFY than any Lab and better dispositions too. MOST not all. That said...there are some APBT's with prick ears. 

that said there are many sities that include GSD's on their BSL list as well as Rotties and other breeds. BUT on average more LABS bite people every year than any other breed....is it cause they're so common or bad breeding mishandling...my opinion is all of the above. 

Courtney


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## Amy Swaby (Jul 16, 2008)

Is the website you're looking for this one?
http://www.chako.org/breedtest.html


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

I have been around many dogs and some Pit Bulls. As a breed, I have nothing against them, in fact some have been real cool! Like some breeds, they can be dog aggressive and if you allow it...it will happen. I have written many letters and extended phone calls to folks in my state. The key point to my conversation and BSL is this: it's the deed and not the breed. Punish the owners with big behind fines/jail time and leave the dogs out of it.

This is the same position I have with gun control. I have never seen a handgun jump off a wall and say to itself, "Hey, gonna rob a bank today!" "Gonna cap someone today!" It is 100% the person behind the tool. Bad guys will get and use any tool they can think of to do their work. Look at the prison systems and the jailhouse weapons those folks fashion! My point...

If you like your dogs and dog sports, you will be PRO-ACTIVE and not reactive!=D>


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Courtney Guthrie said:


> All sarcasm aside MOST average people can't pick the APBT out of that lineup...can you without cheating??
> 
> Geoff- APBT's are usually more GOOFY than any Lab and better dispositions too. MOST not all. That said...there are some APBT's with prick ears.
> 
> ...



I screwed up the test today. I missed the Alano Espanol and the Ca de Bou. Add a note that their Olde English Bulldogge looks a heck of a lot like the Colorado Bulldog.

People think that an uncropped/undocked dobe is a and b/t hound. People think a brindled corgi is a pit bull mix. Any dog with black flecks is a dalmation. Anything with a dark spot on the tongue is a chow mix. And if you're looking for a German Shepherd in a rescue in MI, be prepared to see more pit bulls than German Shepherds...


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

Yeap.....They are/can be good dogs. Genetics does play a role just like any other breed. Except the APBT's end up in the wrong hands far more than any other breed creating real problems with their tempermants. If you take a dog as loyal as an APBT and train it to be mean it will, if you breed man biting dog...it will create more man biting dogs. 

I have a soft spot for them as you either love the breed or hate them, there is little neutrality in it. People also look at the breed as BAD instead of the individual dogs. 

This coming from a person that owns one that has some tempermant issues due to genetics and handler errors with her. I still love the breed even though mine doesn't have the "perfect" tempermant, in the end she is still a dog no matter what her breed is. 

Courtney


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## Amy Swaby (Jul 16, 2008)

i think people should ditch the olf "find the pitbull tests" in favour of the chako link i posted, MUCH better test as it is all known purebreds and mixes where both parents are known. it also lets you see the fallacy of everything being a pitbull mix on the news


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## Tiffany Geisen (Nov 4, 2008)

Anybody notice that mals where the only breed on the list to have a passing rate in the 9o percentile....Go Mals!!!!!


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Tiffany Geisen said:


> Anybody notice that mals where the only breed on the list to have a passing rate in the 9o percentile....Go Mals!!!!!


Yep. I like pitbulls, I really do, but mals are THE BEST! 

Thanks, no doubt, to the fact that so far they've stayed out of the hands of the average backyard breeder. As they get more popular, that will change...


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Anna Kasho said:


> Yep. I like pitbulls, I really do, but mals are THE BEST!
> 
> Thanks, no doubt, to the fact that so far they've stayed out of the hands of the average backyard breeder. As they get more popular, that will change...



It's happening already... There is a guy in my neighborhood that has mals. When I first met him he first had a litter of pups that were 5wks. He wanted to sell me one and of course I was the wrong guy for him to ask that question....

He kept asking me for play dates for his pup and mine since they are only two weeks apart in age. So one day I relented and agreed to met him at the field where I run my dogs every morning. Wow no comparison with his pups vs mine. He'd never socialized them, they were all reserved and only one of the five pups came close to me without barking and raised hackles. At 5mo, I was the first guy to throw a ball for them.

After he saw my little pup do what he does with playing tug and chasing a ball he's already trying to convince me to breed my dog to his sometime next year. I said sure as soon as he puts and FR3 on his bitch. 

he found buyers for two pups that took them home at 6wks. The other five pups have yet to be sold and they are 5.5mo now. They were never socialized and he has ads on craigslist offering his unsocialized pups for free.


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

That list was JUST a PART of it...there are other breeds that have a 90 perentile rating as well. You can check it out at www.atts.org under breed stastistics. Plus look at how many mals were tested compared to other breeds, the number tested is far fewer thus the percentile will be higher compared to other breeds. That's what sucks about statistics. Don't get me wrong I like Mals and want one someday and think they are great dogs. BUT i'd never support BSL no matter what breed I owned. 

Courtney


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## Jaana Aadamsoo (Dec 5, 2008)

Chris Michalek said:


> he found buyers for two pups that took them home at 6wks. The other five pups have yet to be sold and they are 5.5mo now. They were never socialized and he has ads on craigslist offering his unsocialized pups for free.


That can be considered a educating experience for him- it is unlikely that he will breed his female in fear of having the bunch of s***ercritters living at home till they are a year old and eating him pennyless and hopefully he will share the experience with many others :twisted:


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

*Subject:* The Pit Bull Ban -- A Summary



Dear Fellow Dog Lovers,


In an effort to inform as many dog people as I can, I am writing to you as an individual very concerned about the impending bill that has been drafted and is in its first Committee. This bill has to do with the ban of many of the bull + terrier breeds (curiously, it actually does NOT include the Bull Terrier), but could include mixes or indeed any dog that may look like a "pit bull" to the uninitiated public. If you are on a discussion list or two, you know that the airwaves have been extremely active, but not everyone is getting all of the information, so this is my attempt to summarize what has occurred so far, and to give you the information you need in one place, to form your own opinions, write your own letters or emails to hopefully get this bill squashed before it gets much further. My contact list for this email is the same as I would use to send out my periodic calendar of events.



There is a general feeling that it can't happen in Montana, but that's because someone would fight against it -- it's almost guaranteed to pass if nobody speaks up. In this case that someone has to be you and me. Don't say it can't happen here. That's what they thought in Colorado and it happened -- there are reports that a considerable number of dogs have been taken out of pet owners' homes and euthanized. I've heard personally from a list member in Colorado Springs who says that many people in the affected areas of CO have moved their dogs to friends or family out of those areas. Others have been put down. What's scary is that the wording of the Montana bill in question was taken virtually word for word from the bill that passed in Colorado. In other words, the precedent has been set. The AKC has issued a legislative alert to all Legislative Liaisons around the country and we've been getting plenty of startled inquiries.



The bill was drafted by Rep. Robyn Driscoll (email: [email protected]), Montana House of Representatives, PO Box 200400, Helena, MT 59620-0400 and came about in part due to an incidence in Billings earlier this year: http://billingsgazette.net/articles/2008/05/17/news/local/23-dogbite.txt


There was also a case in Kalispell in September:http://billingsgazette.net/articles/2008/09/09/news/state/69-pitbull.txt



Briefly, the bill says that it will be against the law for any person to own or keep a pit bull, defined as a Staffordshire Bull Terrier, an American Staffordshire Terrier, an American pit bull terrier, an American bulldog (different from the English Bulldog that we know), or any dog that has the physical characteristics matching the standards of the AKC or UKC for any of these breeds. Those who already own a pit bull must register it with the county before the effective date of the law, and those showing any of these breeds will have to get written permission from the county -- can you imagine any show handlers going to this trouble? They're just going to say the heck with Montana shows! Any person who owns or keeps such a dog that isn't registered is subject to an animal control officer coming into your home to remove your dog, and within 10 days will put the dog to sleep unless the owner can provide proof that the dog is not a pit bull or that the dog was properly registered. Any pit bull properly registered must be kept on the owner's premises or leashed and muzzled when off the premises, and the dog must be spayed/neutered within 30 days of registering the dog with the county.



We do have an updated report that the originator, Robyn Driscoll, has been inundated with mail, email, letters and phone calls from around the country, realizes that the bill won't pass, and will allow the bill to die a quiet death. We have also gotten responses from some representatives to those individuals who have contacted them, saying they will not vote for this bill, they are against it, and they think it will die before it gets very far. Those representatives have been very appreciative of the information given to them, because they don't have a lot of access to information as to why BSL won't work. So far a committee has been assigned to it (Local Government Committee). It may not get further than the first reading. HOWEVER, we don't want any last minute surprises -- there may be organizations out there that will try to sway opinions; I just don't know whether they will bother with Montana. The fact that something passed in Colorado should scare us all. We need to keep the pressure up at least until we find out the bill is dead once and for all. One list member has been invited to come testify as an Animal Control Officer if it gets that far. Another list member has reported that the LGC chair Elsie Arntzen called her to tell her that she is NOT rushing the bill through committee, that she wants to give people time to make their voices heard, and says she won't schedule the bill for hearing for at least 2 weeks. Ms. Arntzen also suggested that writing the LGC on this issue is exactly the right thing to do. The list of LGC legislators is below. If you write no other emails, these plus one to Ms. Driscoll ([email protected]) would be the most important people to contact. 

=============================


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Part 2


=============================


Members on the Local Government Committee are listed below.Rep. DUANE ANKNEY (R)
Rep. ELSIE ARNTZEN (R)--Chair
Rep. MARK BLASDEL (R)
Rep. BOB EBINGER (D)
Rep. WANDA GRINDE (D)
Rep. BETSY HANDS (D)
Rep. PAT INGRAHAM (R)
Rep. HAL JACOBSON (D)
Rep. WILLIAM JONES (R)
Rep. DEBORAH KOTTEL (D)
Rep. GARY MACLAREN (R)
Rep. BILL NOONEY (R)
Rep. JESSE O'HARA (R)
Rep. DIANE SANDS (D)
Rep. WAYNE STAHL (R)--Vice Chair
Rep. BRADY WISEMAN (D)--Vice Chair



============================



You can easily track any bill or proposed draft by goiing to the MT Legislative web site, http://leg.mt.gov/css/default.asp. The following link from the MT Legislative site lists all the bills and proposed bills http://laws.leg.mt.gov/laws09/LAW0217W$BAIV.return_all_bills where you can see all the infromation regarding the draft or bill. You are even able to create a prefernece list to keep track of or recieve e-mails when any activity is being done with a selected Bill or draft, go to this page to start your preference list http://leg.mt.gov/css/Sessions/61st/laws_pref.asp. On the MT Legislative web site you can find a listing of all the members of the House and Senate and the Committeee members, etc. and every voting person in Montana should know how to find and use this site. (Thanks to Helene Tiefenthaler for this information.)


You can also use this link: http://laws.leg.mt.gov/laws09/law0203w$.startup

to put in any bill number (HB 191) or draft number (LC 1087) and bring them up or do searches. It is so easy I could even do it!


This is the page that tells you how to contact your rep:

http://leg.mt.gov/css/About%20the%20Legislature/Lawmaking%20Process/contact%20legislators.asp

If you'd like to write your own letters to your legislators, Include the number of the bill: HB 191.


http://www.rott-n-chatter.com/rottweilers/laws/sampleletters.html


http://jentown.com/stopbsl/letters.htm


http://www.pitbull-chat.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=&f=70




There is an excellent website with tips on how (and what) to communicate about BSL: 
http://stopbsl.com/take-action/write-letter



o The legislation that you are proposing in HB191 is known as "breed specific legislation (BSL) and there are a number of reasons that the dog-owning public as well as the American Kennel Club (AKC), the American Veterinary Medical Association (AVMA) and other organizations strongly oppose such legislation. First is the difficulty in recognizing a "pit bull" related breed. The AVMA notes, _"Breed-specific ordinances imply that there is an objective method of determining the breed of a particular dog, when in fact, there is not at this time.... In addition, law enforcement personnel typically have no scientific means for determining a dog's breed that can withstand the rigors of legal challenge, nor do they have a foolproof method for deciding whether owners are in compliance or in violation of laws." _Breed specific legislation will be very difficult to enforce. A wide variety of breeds fit the vague description of a pit bull as a dog that has a large head and is very muscular. Try this test to see how difficult it is for you to properly identify a so-called pit-bull: http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/findpit.html. BSL runs the risk of affecting multiple other breeds and mixes than the ones this bill is attempting to pinpoint. Many shelters and animal control facilities already struggle with this task, and frequently mislabel dogs. 



o Secondly it is the deed we should be punishing, not the breed. The AKC has a Position Statement on its website: http://www.akc.org/canine_legislation/position_statements.cfm 

The Association of Pet Dog Trainers (APDT) _"opposes any law that deems a dog as dangerous or vicious based on appearance, breed or phenotype. Canine temperaments are widely varied, and behavior cannot be predicted by physical features such as head shape, coat length, muscle to bone ratio, etc. The only predictor of behavior is behavior....the solution to preventing dog bites is education of owners, breeders, and the general public about aggression prevention, not legislation directed at certain breeds." _The APDT position statement is at this link: http://www.apdt.com/about/ps/breed_specific_legis.aspx .


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

o Dog bites and dog attacks do not have anything to do with the breed. There are a variety of breeds that have been implicated in bite cases, many of them mixed breeds, and many of them the more popular breeds. The statistics change over time and over different portions of the country, depending on what breed is popular at the time. It is the people who own them and train them for attack work or conversely, don't train them, who abuse them, neglect them, fail to socialize them, who are at fault. They are often also involved in other dangerous activities: drug running, dog fighting. If you ban the bull-type dogs from these folks, they will simply gravitate to another breed to train for fighting, and you haven't fixed the problem at all. 



o Without strengthening the laws pertaining to vicious dogs or dogs at large, dog bite incidences will continue in Montana. We need strong consequences for those people with ANY breed who break the law. Currently dangerous/vicious dog laws are rarely enforced, nor do current ordinances which vary from county to county have sufficient strength to make an impact on a dog owner. A violation is a misdemeanor, carrying with it a fine and detention, but the maximum sentence is rarely handed down.



o Animal shelters are already struggling with shortage of staff; enforcing breed-specific legislation does not have the resources it would need and would simply add an additional burden to responsible owners, shelters and animal control officers. Animal control personnel would be faced with the huge task of having to identify, remove, house, re-locate and/or euthanize the dogs within a given region. <<NOTE: HB 161 is unbelievably currently shown as “revenue neutral”>>.



o Montana's constitution is even more strict concerning an individual's rights than the U.S. Constitution and as Montanans, our right to own breeds of our choosing should not be fringed upon, nor should our right to privacy in our own homes, and our right to be free of unreasonable search and seizure. It could be argued that this BSL proposal stomps hard on our basic Bill of Rights.



There are more points to consider -- check the websites above for some excellent suggestions. The work and thought has already been done -- there is no reason for you to reinvent the wheel. Take their suggestions, write them up in your own words, tell the representative who you are and why you are writing, don't threaten to not vote for them, remain calm and polite. Then sit down and write. We could have this whole issue dead and gone in a week, maybe two, if we're lucky. Let's get on it, send in a letter to a few of the reps and Ms. Driscoll, and we'll wait for the favorable results to come our way.



Marion Erp

AKC Legislative Liaison

Swedish Vallhund Club of America


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

And this is what they did in Colorado  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1PR7hZCfxU


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

there was pit bull at the club last night. One of the nicest dogs I've seen. Very well tempered and it's work ethic put all of the other dogs to shame especially considering she's never seen a sleeve before.

The girl that had him said she rescued the dog from a street gutter when the pup was weeks old. She nursed her back to health and has been training her ever since. This dog is nothing short of amazing. The handler could put a tug 10-15ft up in a tree and the dog would jump into and climb the tree to get. I saw this dog scale 6-8ft walls and walk along the top of these walls.

Too bad these BSL people can't meet the dog I saw last night


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Tiffany Geisen said:


> Anybody notice that mals where the only breed on the list to have a passing rate in the 9o percentile....Go Mals!!!!!


Oh that's nothing, Dutchies have a passing rate of 100%............course only 9 subjects involved.

Candy that is one heartbreaking video, and very chilling. People are so irrational when mass hysteria sets in, and the politicians are expert at whipping people up in a frenzy over something then taking advantage of it.


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

Chris Michalek said:


> there was pit bull at the club last night. One of the nicest dogs I've seen. Very well tempered and it's work ethic put all of the other dogs to shame especially considering she's never seen a sleeve before.
> 
> The girl that had him said she rescued the dog from a street gutter when the pup was weeks old. She nursed her back to health and has been training her ever since. This dog is nothing short of amazing. The handler could put a tug 10-15ft up in a tree and the dog would jump into and climb the tree to get. I saw this dog scale 6-8ft walls and walk along the top of these walls.
> 
> Too bad these BSL people can't meet the dog I saw last night


That's what an APBT is supposed to BE! I love my pit bull because she is so versatile and will do anything for me! I'll have to get some pics of her working. 

Courtney


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Courtney Guthrie said:


> That's what an APBT is supposed to BE! I love my pit bull because she is so versatile and will do anything for me! I'll have to get some pics of her working.
> 
> Courtney


I understand.... I also understand they have a natural dog aggression component in them. Am I wrong in believing they were intentionally designed for dog fighting? What I really dislike about most of the pits I've seen is, everything seems to be going so well and then BAM they kick into overdrive and things get nasty, especially with other dogs. I rarely allow my dogs around other dogs but I never let them be with Pits because if something happened, my dog would be on the losing end of things.

The ONLY thing I disliked about the pit from last night was her dog aggression. She very willing to engage other dogs.


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## kristin tresidder (Oct 23, 2008)

Chris Michalek said:


> I also understand they have a natural dog aggression component in them. Am I wrong in believing they were intentionally designed for dog fighting?


not at all. one of things that bugs me the most about alot of staf/pitbull owners now is the way they're trying to water down the history of that particular breed to make it more PC.



Chris Michalek said:


> I rarely allow my dogs around other dogs but I never let them be with Pits because if something happened, my dog would be on the losing end of things.


that's probably smart. i don't let MY dogs socialize with strange dogs. my two pups still can, but none of my adult dogs are looking to make any new friends - at least not of the same sex, and a couple of my bitches won't tolerate males either. it's just part & parcel with the breed. 



Chris Michalek said:


> The ONLY thing I disliked about the pit from last night was her dog aggression. She very willing to engage other dogs.


 
which is exactly how she should be, to be a good pitbull. however, dog aggression is no excuse for not training - the first dog i put a CD on is still my dog most eager to engage another dog at 7 years old - hell, he'll go out of his way if allowed. which he's not. that's where proper dog management, and good obedience training come in, and that's why they're not dogs for everyone.

unfortunately, you can't legislate good dog sense!


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Chris Michalek said:


> I understand.... I also understand they have a natural dog aggression component in them. Am I wrong in believing they were intentionally designed for dog fighting? What I really dislike about most of the pits I've seen is, everything seems to be going so well and then BAM they kick into overdrive and things get nasty, especially with other dogs. I rarely allow my dogs around other dogs but I never let them be with Pits because if something happened, my dog would be on the losing end of things.
> 
> The ONLY thing I disliked about the pit from last night was her dog aggression. She very willing to engage other dogs.


And Rottweilers don't have a propensity for being dog aggressive? :-s I've fostered lots of Rotties and mixes and I own a husky/Rottie cross (which I might end up swapping for my parent's Rottie to train her as a therapy dog) and that's news to me! :lol: Rottweilers also tend to be less human friendly than pit bulls as a general rule (though not always). Just like owning more than any kind of breed that is on the dominant side (GSDs, Mals, Dobes, Rottweilers, etc), if you own more than one, good management is essential or you'll end up making the ER vet really rich. :roll:


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## Leanne Robertson (Jan 9, 2009)

I like Pitbulls, they are banned in the UK but its not the breeds fault its the idiots who think they can make a loyal dog do their dirty work and amuse them. Its disgusting but Pits are really nice friendly dogs well obviously each individual dog is different but that is usually because of the owner. So I dont think its fair at all that innocent dogs that are only doing what they are trained to do are being killed for it. People usually fear what they dont understand. Its a shame. :sad:


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Chris Michalek said:


> I understand.... I also understand they have a natural dog aggression component in them. Am I wrong in believing they were intentionally designed for dog fighting? What I really dislike about most of the pits I've seen is, everything seems to be going so well and then BAM they kick into overdrive and things get nasty, especially with other dogs. I rarely allow my dogs around other dogs but I never let them be with Pits because if something happened, my dog would be on the losing end of things.
> 
> The ONLY thing I disliked about the pit from last night was her dog aggression. She very willing to engage other dogs.


The trademark of the APBT is "calm with intense bursts of energy." I love the breed for this because I don't have patience for a go-go-go drivey dog in the house, but I want a drivey dog. They've got an "off" switch. (or should I say, an "on" switch :lol: )

This trait is what gets people into trouble. It's so common to have an incident and the owner says "he's never done that before!" People generally believe that past behavior is a predicator of future behavior, which is NOT the case. It requires moment-to-moment supervision and evaulation, removing the dog from the situation when the stimulus is reaching the dog's threshold for tolerance.

My APBT has never had an incident. She isn't permitted to interact with other dogs - not even dogs she is living with. But if someone asks, yep, she is dog-selective to dog-aggressive. She is one heck of an example to use to demonstrate how a dog can be controlled and self-controlled through good training.


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

Chris Michalek said:


> I understand.... I also understand they have a natural dog aggression component in them. Am I wrong in believing they were intentionally designed for dog fighting? What I really dislike about most of the pits I've seen is, everything seems to be going so well and then BAM they kick into overdrive and things get nasty, especially with other dogs. I rarely allow my dogs around other dogs but I never let them be with Pits because if something happened, my dog would be on the losing end of things.
> 
> The ONLY thing I disliked about the pit from last night was her dog aggression. She very willing to engage other dogs.



As others have said. YES, they are PRONE to Dog Aggression. However, JUST because they are doesn't mean they will light up on everything. My dog is selective to VERY dog aggressive. That said she has 2 legs of her CD title with AKC(reg'd Am. Staff) and a BH as well as a CGC. SO, proper training can lead to a Highly trained competition dog. 

She is NOT allowed around other dogs off leash except for those that she knowingly gets along with and even then it's a crapshoot as fights happen with any breed. I've also seen a LOT of Rotties with INTENSE dog aggression that will match an APBT's. 

The APBT was the ONLY breed bred for human friendliness as the owners didn't want to get bit seperating dogs in the pit. The Rotties as a whole are more human aggressive IME. BUT that's their BREED traits. To Protect and Guard. An APBT's breed traits is that they were bred originally for animal aggression, either towards the bulls or in the pit with other dogs. 

I never recommend this breed for ANYONE that doesn't already have expierience with them as they are NOT for the average owner and even some SMART working dog people can't wrap their heads around the responsibility of owning an APBT. 

My dog performs on the field and does long downs with no breaking them. It was hard work and I have had dogs rush her that broke a down while she was working, guess what her focus never left me. Had they actually grabbed her...she would have lit up at them very quickly! 

Courtney


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> Oh that's nothing, Dutchies have a passing rate of 100%............course only 9 subjects involved.
> 
> Candy that is one heartbreaking video, and very chilling. People are so irrational when mass hysteria sets in, and the politicians are expert at whipping people up in a frenzy over something then taking advantage of it.


Susan,this video makes me cry every time I view it. And we should all view it over and over again. Insert "your breed" here! It IS heartbreaking! 

This is what happens when you try to shut the door _"after"_ the fact! Not being pro-active before it comes to this kind of hatred and ugliness. We should all weep. "If not you, then who?" 

Until politicians are voted OUT of office for these types of laws, the power and money will always hold sway. How do they sleep at night?


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Chris Michalek said:


> I'm not a fan of Pits but I think it's absolutely wrong to seized current pets. If they want to implement a ban then do it starting with dogs born after a certain a year from now and then create a one strike and out seizure law. Meaning if the dog is at large and attacks a human it's put to sleep without question. If the dog is at large and fights with another dog - regardless of who starts it then the owners of BOTH dogs should be fined.


Now Chirs, you surpirise me! I thought you were "above this". How can you not be a friend of the Pit Bull? The Pit Bulls I have known have been absolutely 1A. And this from playing with them and observing them.

Just like my playing, rough housing with an 8 month old Rottweiler. Toni (my lesser half) had a rough and tumble with a Pit Bul, about 12 months' old. They're canines, too you know, you know, you know!!!


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> If ANY dog bites someone without reason, Shoot the owner and rehab/rehome the dog.


I've had a few dogs, various breeds from JRTs to GSDs (eek!) and I would agree shoot the owner.

Some dogs are easy to train, some not, it's up to the owner and if he or she is not up to it for any reason, please don't transfer their shortcomings to the dog. Whatever the breed, IT JUST DOES NOT DESERVE IT.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Now Chirs, you surpirise me! I thought you were "above this". How can you not be a friend of the Pit Bull? The Pit Bulls I have known have been absolutely 1A. And this from playing with them and observing them.
> 
> Just like my playing, rough housing with an 8 month old Rottweiler. Toni (my lesser half) had a rough and tumble with a Pit Bul, about 12 months' old. They're canines, too you know, you know, you know!!!



It's more about personal experience than anything else. I actually wanted a pitbull at one time but then I started watching them and thought twice about it. I'm much more experienced now that I was then (12yrs ago) and can see it was more about poor training and poor handlers than anything else.

I never said I want them banned, I don't want any breed to be banned. I was just saying how horrible it would be to lose an existing family member due to some stupid law.

As for the other comments, I know Rotts can be dog aggressive, my male is most of the time where my females are not at all. I think the issues with dog aggression in pits vs other dominant breeds is for pits it more about fighting for the joy of it vs fighting for dominance. I've seen a few pits who see another dog anywhere and they want to go after it. My male doesn't seek fights but he doesn't back down either. If another dog chanllenges him then it's on. If there is a dog around, say 50ft my rott and past rotts pretty much don't care, I seen pits including lastnight where they see another dog across the field they just want have a go. That would be too hard for me to handle and I suspect it's that behavior that gets owners in trouble.

That said, I've really come around on the bully breed thing, especially in the past few months. One local help that I occasionally train with specializes in pits and other bulldogs. Those are some of the nicest and best trained dogs I've ever met.


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

Chris Michalek said:


> It's more about personal experience than anything else. I actually wanted a pitbull at one time but then I started watching them and thought twice about it. I'm much more experienced now that I was then (12yrs ago) and can see it was more about poor training and poor handlers than anything else.
> 
> I never said I want them banned, I don't want any breed to be banned. I was just saying how horrible it would be to lose an existing family member due to some stupid law.
> 
> ...



You're right that dog aggression that is not worked with does get owners into trouble! BUT that said......my dog was like that at one point and we trained her to control it. Don't get me wrong...she's still dog aggressive and always will be. BUT I can hurl a "PLATZ" at her at anytime and she drops dead in her tracks no matter dogs there or not. The reason is TRAINING. 

My female has actually gotten her @ss whooped by a LabX and usually she comes out on bottom....but that doesn't stop her and hasn't yet. All that stops her is TRAINING. Which is WHY I always tell people that the APBT is not for everyone. 

Courtney


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