# General Thoughts on Dog Food



## Alicia Mertz (Mar 28, 2006)

For several reasons I've been doing a lot of research on dog food lately (thank you, Connie, for all your help), and a friend of mine asked me a question today that I really couldn't think of a good answer for.

Why aren't the evils of the commerical dog food companies (if they're really as bad as some of the articles I've been reading say they are) being exposed by someone? You would think PETA would be all over the extensive use of grains and grain fractions as cheap protein sources and the use (misuse?) of synthetic preservatives like Ethoxyquin, which seems to have so much controversy surrounding it.

Is it just because the general public has blinders on about this stuff? An "if the vet says it's good, it must be" mentality?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Alicia Mertz said:


> For several reasons I've been doing a lot of research on dog food lately (thank you, Connie, for all your help), and a friend of mine asked me a question today that I really couldn't think of a good answer for.
> 
> Why aren't the evils of the commerical dog food companies (if they're really as bad as some of the articles I've been reading say they are) being exposed by someone? You would think PETA would be all over the extensive use of grains and grain fractions as cheap protein sources and the use (misuse?) of synthetic preservatives like Ethoxyquin, which seems to have so much controversy surrounding it.
> 
> Is it just because the general public has blinders on about this stuff? An "if the vet says it's good, it must be" mentality?


http://www.eagletribune.com/punewsnh/local_story_085093817?keyword=secondarystory+page=1

They are "exposed" all the time. Hills, Nestle-Purina, et al -- these are rich corporations with loads of advertising dollars. The small regional manufacturers producing better foods are not. But I think the big stranglehold is the one that Hills-SD has on the vet community. They pay for "research," stock the waiting rooms with deeply discounted bags of cereal products that provide income to the practice, and even contribute major funding to the AVMA and other associations.

Fast food for humans is "exposed" all the time. McDonalds doesn't have a hold on the medical community, but think of the pharmaceutical houses and how they influence our health care.

Have you ever read Tom Lonsdale's* books about raw feeding? His first book details the ridicule, harassment, and eventual ostracism he endured when he bucked the commercial pet food establishment.

The answers are many, but they all boil down to ------ money. Big, big money. The usual answer.

JMO.

*He's a DVM.


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## Alicia Mertz (Mar 28, 2006)

I guess you're right. That is the driving force behind pretty much everything, isn't it? Not gonna mention our governm.... Oil mone... Nope, not gonna do it. :lol:

Sad.

Haven't read Tom Lonsdale's books, but I'll look into picking them up. Thanks.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Lonsdale, Pitcairn, Schultze, Billinghurst........ there are many DMVs who have published books about the problems with the foods produced by the biggies.

Again, though, there are smaller (mostly regional) manufacturers doing a MUCH better job of producing species-appropriate food.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

just to get a bit off tangent here, but how many ppl even realize who makes decisions on HUMAN food/drugs in this country? the FDA, right? who sits on that board? people who's research dollars are, in large part, provided by the very drug company which is trying to get a drug/treatment approved by the FDA. and, even though (i believe) the FDA committee members are supposed to recuse themselves from a decision if their work (even if it's not on the drug under scrutiny) is funded by a company submitting a drug for approval (called conflict of interest, you know), guess what? 
yep, you're right, doesn't matter, they stay on the committee regardless.
and someone thinks that a country that won't even regulate the drugs it's HUMAN population takes would worry much about pet food????
connie's right--it's about BIG, BIG money, and it disgusts me.

better go b/f i need to take high blood pressure meds (approved by the FDA, BTW)....


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

It's easy to criticize drug companies, and often warranted. We must consider however, the average age we will live is in part because of these companies. When I was a boy, people were getting small pox and polio. Unheard of today. Many of the maladies of years gone by are no longer fatal as once was. Again, due in part to the drug companies. Yes, technology is better today. Our health care providers are are more advanced. While there certainly are problems with the cost and availability of drugs, sometimes even with unwanted sideeffects, I'll probably live longer today, than I would have 100 years ago.

DFrost


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

The problem is convenience and price. Alot of people know that raw is better than kibble but continue to feed kibble anyway. The dogs are alive n their coats are shiney so that's all that matters.

Cost:
Even the pre-packaged raw diets are kind of a pain in the butt, they take up alot of freezer space, and are $3.60+/lb it is expensive to feed anything bigger than a Yorkie. Even the better kibbles are expensive. $45/bag for a 25 or 30lb bag vs $35 for a 40-50lb bag of premium pet-store kibble. For someone feeding 2 or 3 or 4 dogs, if not more, thats quite a price difference, especially vs. the $20-25/40lbs stuff such as Kasko and Diamond.

Convenience:
I need a seperate freezer in my garage to feed raw. It took me 2 years to finally find a place in town where I could buy the ingredients for a raw diet at a good price with consistent availability. It takes me at least an hour if not more to ziploc up enough food for 4-6 weeks for 2 dogs. I need to make sure stuff is defrosted in time so my dogs don't starve for the day. If I take my dogs somewhere I need to have an alternative food because I can't bring 14 ziploc baggies of raw chicken backs with me if I go out for a week. Most boarding facilities won't store raw food for you if you board your dog. Then there is also a concern with families with young children being around raw meats. Some dogs don't take to raw immediately so the owners get discouraged.

Quite a few people that I know personally and have talked to online all like the idea of raw, until they price it out or factor in how much effort it is going to take. They all look at the options and end up with what is easiest, cheapest or more convenient. I am actually surprised how educated people are, at least in this town, about raw foods vs. kibble, but most people are the type to want to see an immediate improvement to the dog n if they don't then they wonder why they are putting in the effort and cost to feed raw. Lazy-raw is ridiculously expensive to feed (prepacked stuff, Omas Pride, Natures Variety etc) and real-raw is a pain in the butt, you need to really care about what your dogs eat to want to make that effort.

Then look at police dogs, I hear what officers feed their dogs n I'm surprised at what they consider good food. But you then also need to understand that they feed what the department pays for, the department pays for kibble, usually pretty cheap kibble. They also listen to the vet advice of the vet chosen by the department, who will push whatever food they carry, usually Iams or Eukanuba around this area. Bil Jac is a popular food among local law enforcement. Having met these guys, I cannot picture any of them spending the money to buy a raw diet, then standing in their kitchen an hour a month baggying up a balanced raw diet for their dogs  They have other things on their mind.


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## Amber Scott Dyer (Oct 30, 2006)

I feed Canidae to my dogs, Natures Variety medallions to my cat. Sometimes I give the dogs medallions, too, but not as anything but a treat - just too pricey  My reasons for not feeding raw are mostly what you've listed here. I don't have anywhere I can put another freezer, and with four dogs (two big, two small), I would need a lot of freezer space to feed raw. It's not time - my macaw eats a completely holistic diet (OK, other than eating the junk I eat, LOL) - but the freezer space I take up just for the food for one bird is ridiculous. I have friends that feed whole prey model, and most of them buy literally a hundred pounds of, say, rabbit, at a time. Maybe one day I will have somewhere to store it, but now? Not an option.

I will say, though, that most people ARE too lazy to feed raw. Just going on what I learned the hard way teaching bird ownership classes - I'd give them long lectures on proper diet, the necessity of foraging, etc., and 90% of them would come back later and tell me that they were feeding pellets with the occasional fruit and vegetable. At that point, you know they aren't going to feed the way they should, so you settle for trying to recommend a higher-quality pellet with no ethoxyquin and hope for the best. :?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Ethoxyquin's big claim to fame was some puppy miller lost a bunch of Yorkies, looked on the bag and the ingredient she didn't recognize was Ethoxyquin.

Dog food, especially the grains and raw issues are most often written on by zealots.

I, in the many years that I have around dogs, have rarely seen the amazing results that many dog foods claim, and would feed raw, but am way too lazy. LOL.

I see dogs that look fantastic on grocery store brands, so maybe it is like those shampoo comercials and the girls with the genetically perfect hair.


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## Alicia Mertz (Mar 28, 2006)

I wasn't even necessarily asking why more people don't feed raw. I completely understand the time and money involved in keeping your dog(s) on a raw diet, especially when you have anything bigger than a Yorkie, like Mike said.

More or less, I was asking why so many people still think that Pedigree and Ol' Roy are good foods. Even Iams, Eukanuba, Science Diet... Their ingredients lists are appalling. I guess it comes down to what Connie said - big, big money (and some brainwashing) - and Mike's point about the better (or at least acceptable) kibbles being pricey per pound. Still... I dunno.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I've been feeding Nutro Max and Nutro Lamb and rice for the past 17 years. We don't have skin problems, we don't have all the allergies people complain of. They are working dogs and they have all the energy they need. Our average age on retirement for single purpose dogs has been 12, which I don't think is too bad. We've had dogs live as long as 16 years. While I'm sure they may be better foods available, my question has to be better than what. Healthy, energetic, problem free dogs is what I'm after. In all those years, we've had maybe 5 dogs (I'm feeding 45) that could not tolerate the Nutro product for one reason or another. I just don't think those are too bad of odds. Yes, we've had a few die early, one lost a leg to cancer (a lab) but still worked 2 years afterwards (a single purpose drug dog I called Tripod). I just retired a Chocolate lab he is 13 and having some kidney problems. That isn't outside the margins though of geriatric working dogs. 

DFrost


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

What ingredients are appalling???? My dogs enjoy cat shit, dead shit, stinky rotten trash shit. At what point can an ingredient be appalling. Dogs are scavengers. I have had many dogs in my care over the years that had lived very long lives on ol roy and pedigree.

What I was saying in an earlier post is that this stuff is genetic. They either live a long time, or they don't. Food has nothing to do with it, unless some company poisens it. LOL


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Yeah, rat poison in the food is a bad thing.


IMHO, so is a bowl of cereal every day for life, to a dog.

That's what the national vet-office brands are (Science Diet, Hills, et al).

Dogs need meat.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Food has nothing to do with it,


:-k 

Does not compute.


David, Nutro isn't even related to the vet-office foods that are corn-based. Nutro has meat in it! Real meat!


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> What ingredients are appalling???? My dogs enjoy cat shit, dead shit, stinky rotten trash shit. At what point can an ingredient be appalling. Dogs are scavengers. I have had many dogs in my care over the years that had lived very long lives on ol roy and pedigree.
> 
> What I was saying in an earlier post is that this stuff is genetic. They either live a long time, or they don't. Food has nothing to do with it, unless some company poisens it. LOL


There's always going to be the guy who can drink and smoke and chew and eat bacon and eggs for breakfast every day until he dies at 100, but for the rest of us mortals, that's not so. I've done 4 years of research on diet studies and endocrine disruptor studies on mice that are genetically almost practically clones (including 2 diet studies specifically on Purina's rodent chow which is surprisingly similar to many low end dog chows). Even feeds with a slightly different phytoestrogen profile give vastly different adult phenotypes to genetically similar animals. I can unequivocally assure you, Jeff...you are what you eat.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> There's always going to be the guy who can drink and smoke and chew and eat bacon and eggs for breakfast every day until he dies at 100, but for the rest of us mortals, that's not so. I've done 4 years of research on diet studies and endocrine disruptor studies on mice that are genetically almost practically clones (including 2 diet studies specifically on Purina's rodent chow which is surprisingly similar to many low end dog chows). Even feeds with a slightly different phytoestrogen profile give vastly different adult phenotypes to genetically similar animals. I can unequivocally assure you, Jeff...you are what you eat.


Those darned 100-year-olds who drank and smoked and ate bacon and eggs three times a day drive me crazy. :lol:

All commercial dog foods do not belong in the same category. The ingredients are what matter, and the worst I have seen are indeed the ones with the gigantic advertising budgets. 

Hmmm......... maybe there's a connection.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

I don't believe kibble is as evil as some people make it out to be, especially one of the better kibbles. But obviously raw is my first choice. I live on junk food quite alot, this week my breakfast foods of choice have been doritos, pringles, hersheys kisses, banana nut muffin, a croissant and this morning a country fried steak with bacon eggs and hash browns. Yeah, I'm a health nut  I used to ride 30-50 miles on a bike with just a McGriddle for breakfast. But I would probably be healthier long term with better food.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> I used to ride 30-50 miles on a bike with just a McGriddle for breakfast. But I would probably be healthier long term with better food.


Ya think? :lol: :lol:


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

<<<Nutro isn't even related to the vet-office foods that are corn-based. Nutro has meat in it! Real meat!>>>

True, in fact, it has no corn. Personally, I wouldn't feed SD to a dead goat. Sometimes though, Raw feeders are a bit cultish. I've had more than one discussion that usually ends in statements similiar to: well if you don't care anything about your dog's health etc. 

As far as LE dogs go, hey Micky D has meat (well sort of) and a few fries never killed a dog. 

DFrost


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

David Frost said:


> well if you don't care anything about your dog's health etc. ....


I know.

Fact is, there are a lot of choices these days. Even 15 years ago, that wasn't so true. 

There's a whole list of commercial foods that have good ingredients, are not grain-heavy, have no toxic chemicals in them ....

They're not the ones in the vets' offices or in the prime-time commercials, unfortunately.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

David Frost said:


> As far as LE dogs go, hey Micky D has meat (well sort of) and a few fries never killed a dog.
> 
> DFrost


What? LE dogs get no power circles??!


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> What? LE dogs get no power circles??!


None left for them to eat.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

no boiled bread for my dog...

just Nutro High Energy. seems to like it...


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Actually, Nutro DOES have corn gluten meal in several of their formulas, and many, by weight, contain more rice than meat. It IS much better than most grocery store brands (like Purina ONE, Iams, store brands, etc.), though, don't get me wrong.

The people that claim cost is why they don't feed a better food kill me, because I've checked prices, and Science Diet, Pro Plan, Eukanuba, Iams, ONE, and even Nutro are not any cheaper per bag than Canidae, yet require that you feed more of it (according to their feeding charts), so they actually end up costing more because you have to buy it more often. :roll: Why can't people understand that?


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

so canidae is supposed to be a good kibble?


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

people don't "understand" a LOT of things b/c it doesn't affect them personally, and "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". the masses won't change their habits even on the evidence of massive problems...

I have GOT to get off this political crap-i never even knew i had it in me and it's NOT appropriate for the forum. my apologies, and can we talk about training dogs again?....


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Tim Martens said:


> so canidae is supposed to be a good kibble?


Canidae is excellent. I know of several folks who switch between that and Chicken Soup (another good not very expensive premium food that I usually had good luck with before I switched to raw). One Great Dane breeder friend of mine had to switch from Chicken Soup to Canidae because sometimes the duck in CS isn't well tolerated.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

do you think it's worth while to switch from nutro if i've had good results with that? reason i'm thinking of switching is because of the ear thing my dog has going now. vet said it might be allergies and gave me some drops. drops haven't done squat. i don't know if our petstore carries canidae, but i'll check....


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Cannidea works just fine.

Connie, food is not the deciding factor in how a dog looks to me, it is the genetics that decide. I have seen many dogs on many different types of dog food, and have never seen a pattern that would make me think that there was much to do with dog food. I have seen dogs on raw that looked like crap. I guess after having seen a few thousand dogs, I really wish I would have seen some sort of difference.

As far as Cannidea, one of my pups was on it for five years, then she started itching. She was on it her entire life. My friend changed to Iams (green bag) and the itching stopped. So really the dog's genetics are important.

Inbred mice are not going to convince me of anything. The mice in the barn were bigger than the mice in the house. Conclusion? Mice have nothing to do with dogs LOL


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## Ian Forbes (Oct 13, 2006)

The fact is that most people do not care much about their own diet, let alone their dogs.

Here in the UK we have some truly awful foods (Bakers, Winalot etc.) along with the rotten stuff that people perceive is good (SD, Iams, Eukanuba).

An increasing number of people feed raw (but unfortunately that includes the Raw-Food-Nazis, who cannot even agree with each other!!) and some really good brands are now coming over (Timberwolforganics, Orijen, Nature's Variety etc.), but it's difficult to get past the advertising budget of the big guys and the Vet recommendations of SD and Royal Canin.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

The website http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com is a great site to give to people that are not really *that* educated about dog food ingredients. The site is simple, and the explanations about why a food scored the way it did are pretty easy to understand for the average person. I don't agree 100% with_ every_ grade on the site, but I don't think any of them are _way_ off.

Out of a possible 6 star rating on that site, Canidae scores a 5. I've had wonderful results with it, over the past 3-4 years I've used it. I've also been very happy with Solid Gold and Premium Edge, but the store I bought them from quit carrying them, and started carrying Canidae, so that's why I switched. I was not happy with Nutro Natural Choice; the dogs had sloppy, nasty poo when they were on it. I was also not impressed with Wellness, which had the same result - both foods being fed over the course of several months' time, just to make sure it wasn't because of switching to a new food. I was pretty happy with Bil-Jac when I fed it to Gypsy, but it went bad pretty quickly even in an airtight storage container, and smelled like old McDonalds fries when it did, so I quit using it. Gypsy's slightly sensitive to corn, but did not have a problem with the Bil-Jac; probably because it's manufactured differently than other dog foods.


I also don't like to use/recommend a food that contains menadione (synthetic vitamin K). Not only is it unnecessary in the dog's diet, but it's bad, bad stuff. See http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=menadione for more information.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Jeff, with as much as you all like to line breed your dogs, the outbred mice that we use are not so dissimilar. Here's the ingredients of Purina 5001, a standard rodent chow that we have used in our lab's diet studies:

Ground corn, dehulled soybean meal, dried beet pulp, fish meal, ground oats, brewers dried yeast, cane molasses, dehydrated alfalfa meal, dried whey, wheat germ, porcine meat meal, wheat middlings, animal fat preserved with BHA, salt, calcium carbonate, choline chloride, cholecalciferol, vitamin A acetate, folic acid, pyridoxine hydrochloride, DL-methionine, thiamin mononitrate, calcium pantothenate, nicotinic acid, dl-alpha tocopheryl acetate, cyanocobalamin, riboflavin, ferrous sulfate, manganous oxide, zinc oxide, ferrous carbonate, copper sulfate, zinc sulfate, calcium iodate, cobalt carbonate.

Not really all that much different than your standard low grade dog chow (Pedigree, Purina, so on), eh? In fact, a lot of rodent breeders feed their rats or mice dog kibble. With the Canidae (and other foods) that made your dog itchy, they do change the formulas somewhat frequently without really making it known to everyone, so that can happen. Had two friends who really liked one of the Wellness formulas, but they switched something in the ingredients and both of their dogs started getting itchy and poor stools. 

I'm not a raw Nazi, though I feed raw myself with some supplemental canned Innova Evo, etc, but my husky/Rott mix looks like crap if he gets just one meal of beef anything. Coat looks shoddy, rough, and flakey and nasty diarrhea. So it can be a great diet for most dogs, but not for all because of genetics and allergies. The point is, it's pretty much always the environment working on the genetics. So true of so many things.

Tim, I'd recommend finding one that works for your dogs in the "upper echelon" of holistic dog foods (Chicken Soup, Canidae, Blue Buffalo, some Solid Gold, some Nutro, Merrick, Innova, Timberwolf Organics, Natural Balance, Wellness, etc). Some of those brands are only sold in more independent pet and feed stores, like I know Chicken Soup and Canidae are sold only in independent pet supply and feed stores, but I'm pretty sure Blue Buffalo is found in Petsmart.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Kristen Cabe said:


> Tim, I'd recommend finding one that works for your dogs in the "upper echelon" of holistic dog foods (Chicken Soup, Canidae, Blue Buffalo, some Solid Gold, some Nutro, Merrick, Innova, Timberwolf Organics, Natural Balance, Wellness, etc). Some of those brands are only sold in more independent pet and feed stores, like I know Chicken Soup and Canidae are sold only in independent pet supply and feed stores, but I'm pretty sure Blue Buffalo is found in Petsmart.


i know our pet store carries innova. i tried that with my first dog on the recommendation of the staff at the store. duke never shit solid with it. i scrapped it after half a bag. then i went to nutro max natural (green bag) and he did well with it. he started losing weight (disease) and i switched to the nutro high energy (30% protein, 20% fat). i've kept my other two (including my current) dog on high energy. i wouldn't think about switching except for the ear issue my current dog has.

i also know that our pet store carries chicken soup. i'll check on canidae next time i go...


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Personally Natures Vartiety Raw Instinct is at the top of my own list for kibbles. No personal experience with it but know some dogs on it and Natures Variety is what I fed in raw-patty form before. Apparently the Raw Instinct stuff is basically the same ingredients as the patties with no grains or potato (innova has potato) baked to the minimum required to form kibble.

I hear good things about Orijens or whatever it's called too. But at $46 for a 25 or 28lb bag for Raw Instinct, it's not cheap. I think the average GSD/Mali type dog eats between 2.5-3.5 cups a day of that stuff if I remember correctly.

There's alot of good kibbles out there though.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Tim, the corn gluten meal in the Nutro Natural Choice High Energy might be a suspect. I haven't tried Innova's regular kibble, but I do feed the canned 95% venison and 95% rabbit from their EVO line once a week or so for an alternate protein source. They sure do love that (and they better, as it's like ~$3.50 a can). 

Mike, that's certainly a benefit of good kibble. Before we fed raw, Zoso (~60 lbs) the high energy Mal/GSD or whatever he is dog ate 3.5 cups of Chicken Soup. The Great Dane breeder friend of mine fed Chicken Soup to her 120+ lbs moderately low energy dogs and was fine with 3.5-4 cups. My moderately high energy 40 lbs Aussie mix and my moderately low energy 65 lbs husky/Rott mix both got 2 cups a day and maintained a pretty good weight. They are kept lean and mean on raw though.


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

6 stars. Count 'em. So close to raw it moos/clucks/neighs/barks.


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## Amanda Layne (Aug 9, 2006)

I think most people dont know that "store brands" are bad because they never thought to look into it. It has vegtables on the package.....gotta be decent.

Before I got my dobes I never really looked into it. I never needed to. My dog seemed healthy, happy......no problems, right?

My vet turned me on to the frozen bil-jac, so I fed that for a while, then when I started researching on my own I switched to Solid Gold. I have tried just about all of the super premium kibbles, but none even hold a candle to Solid Gold IMO. 

For what I spend on dog food, SeaMeal, MSM, Oils... canned food, the freeze dried stuff....I could feed raw, but honestly, the thought of it just disgusts me. I dont eat much meat.....not because I have a problem with it.......but just because I dont like the taste. (I know Im odd) So I cant imagine feeding hearts and liver and .........ugh......whatever else you have to feed.


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## Andy Andrews (May 9, 2006)

Just looked through the dog food analysis site. All I can say in regard to the 6 star kibbles is....42% protein? Are they NUTS??? With that much protein, just go ahead and put your dog on the kidney transplant list straight away, they'll need a new one in a few years. 

*shocked*


Andy.


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## Amanda Layne (Aug 9, 2006)

Andy Andrews said:


> Just looked through the dog food analysis site. All I can say in regard to the 6 star kibbles is....42% protein? Are they NUTS??? With that much protein, just go ahead and put your dog on the kidney transplant list straight away, they'll need a new one in a few years.
> 
> *shocked*
> 
> ...


You must be talking about EVO. I hear its a great food. My dogs ate it for a bit. There is something about that much protein in kibble form, long term... that just doesnt settle right with me.

I dont know, like I said.....I hear great things about it, Solid Gold has a similar product, Barking at the Moon.......I dunno, I just cant do it.


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## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

Not really Andy - alot of kibbled feed that is aimed at performance/endurance athlete dogs are over 35% protein. Anything less than 30% generally has to be supplemented with additional protein(meat usually). As the duration of the event goes up the need for fat in the diet does also - up to 40% for long distance racing sled dogs. The "protein is bad for the kidneys" thing is not as widely accepted as it once was. My vet used to freak on me that the 30/20 kibble I was feeding was going to be too hard on the dogs kidneys - I never told her about all the chicken and liver and fat I was adding as I thought that would really make her peak!... I have a dogyard made up of geriatrics and everyones kidneys are just fine!


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## Andy Andrews (May 9, 2006)

Lynn Cheffins said:


> Not really Andy - alot of kibbled feed that is aimed at performance/endurance athlete dogs are over 35% protein. Anything less than 30% generally has to be supplemented with additional protein(meat usually). As the duration of the event goes up the need for fat in the diet does also - up to 40% for long distance racing sled dogs. The "protein is bad for the kidneys" thing is not as widely accepted as it once was. My vet used to freak on me that the 30/20 kibble I was feeding was going to be too hard on the dogs kidneys - I never told her about all the chicken and liver and fat I was adding as I thought that would really make her peak!... I have a dogyard made up of geriatrics and everyones kidneys are just fine!




That's interesting, Lynn. Most people in the APBT/weight pull community who swear by Canidae/Innova, do not/will not feed more than 30% protein when conditioning their dogs for events. Go figure...


Andy.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Lynn Cheffins said:


> The "protein is bad for the kidneys" thing is not as widely accepted as it once was.


Here are some interesting thoughts on the old protein-kidneys myth:


http://www.dogaware.com/kidney.html#protein
including this quote from Kirk's Vet Manual: "Therefore, excess protein in the diet did not appear to compromise renal function even in the presence of high endogenous levels of protein associated with the disease. In fact, on an individual basis some of the CRD dogs in the high protein diet group faired better. This finding was postulated to be associated with the fact that protein is required for cellular repair and function."

The statements in the URL are from pretty conservative sources, BTW.... traditional western vet med. (Other sources have stronger wording.)

That old belief seems to me to have grown up around poor-quality (for dogs, I mean) grain protein in the lesser kibbles.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Hah!!! You kibble feeders want a practical reason to switch to RAW? It's the crap left behind. There's much less of it, it's tiny, doesn't stink & if you wait a minute it will dry up & blow away.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Well in the past I have fed raw, Nutro and for, the past 1.5 years, Purina ONE Sensitive Systems because I like the formulation better than the equivalent Pro Plan (Salmon based). I fed raw for three years and I cannot tell any difference other than my allergic dog is much better on the kibble.

He is allergic to Chicken and Flax (both identified through elimination diet) and that closes a whole lot of doors. He has absolutely no problems with Corn. There is poultry fat in the One, but I gather since allergies are to protiens that is why it does not bother him. 

My female, who was raised on raw from day one - and I used Billinhgurst and fed green tripe, etc. - STILL developed HD. I have heard people claim a raw diet prevents bad hips, but that was not my experience. Don't think it caused the problem but it sure did not prevent it in her or two littermates.

I decided to put more food money and energy into what my husband and I eat instead of the dogs. 

I do not consider myself to be lazy. My last GSD who was fed on Nutro most of his life lived to be 15 and went down quickly at the end. I don't have anything against raw ........... just not for us right now.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> ... My last GSD who was fed on Nutro most of his life lived to be 15 and went down quickly at the end. I don't have anything against raw ........... just not for us right now.


I believe strongly in doing what works best.

I hadn't heard that raw could prevent HD, since HD is a genetic problem. (It's genetic, but environmental factors can affect how and how much the dog is affected...... example, an overweight dog might have more disability from the dysplasia.)

Saying that any food can prevent HD is, IMHO, crap.

That would be quite a challenge to feed a dog who's allergic to poultry.




P.S. There are many good kibbles these days. My own experience with allergic dogs and dogs with yeast-overgrowth problems has been that raw, grain-free diets have helped most. But if I were working with a dog who did better on a commercial food, I sure as heck would feed that commercial food.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Woody Taylor said:


> 6 stars. Count 'em. So close to raw it moos/clucks/neighs/barks.












we'll see how it goes...


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

:lol: 

Dog food the same size as the dog!

Tim, that's one food that often works better with a gradual switch. Dogs who are used to a lot of grain protein and who switch to all animal protein sometimes need a little time for the system to gear up..... avoid a possible little temporary diarrhea issue.

Excellent food, IMHO.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> :lol:
> 
> Dog food the same size as the dog!
> 
> ...


oh yeah. i've always used a "ramp up" method. in this case, since i still have about 60 pounds of nutro high energy, it'll be a VERY gradual switch.

ps. i'll believe my dogs going from 6 cups of high energy to 3 cups of EVO when i see it...


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Hey Tim, cool. I see you got the "Big Bites" kind. I had Annie on the smaller kibble until this last bag, she seems to like the bigger size.

Annie's 70 lbs and lean and no where near your dog's energy spend and she's at ~3.5 cups a day. Curious to see how yours does on 3...does sound kind of light, though I think that's what's on the bag.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Woody Taylor said:


> Hey Tim, cool. I see you got the "Big Bites" kind. I had Annie on the smaller kibble until this last bag, she seems to like the bigger size.
> 
> Annie's 70 lbs and lean and no where near your dog's energy spend and she's at ~3.5 cups a day. Curious to see how yours does on 3...does sound kind of light, though I think that's what's on the bag.


yeah, the kid at the pet store wasn't much help. i tried to feel the "big bites" through the bag and they didn't feel too big, so i went with them. as far as quantity....the bag says something like 2 and 1/2 to 2 and 3/4 cups a day for a 60-80 pound dog. so i just rounded up to 3. i'll start there eventually when i ramp up to 100% EVO.

i had the cannidae in my hand and i just said screw it and got the EVO. it's a pretty tiny petstore but they had quite a few different "premium" brands. they have california natural, cannidae, chicken soup, innova, royal canin. i just never paid much attention and grabbed my trusty nutro...


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Curious to see if you will notice any change in shedding, it seems like I did. I also cut in a teaspoon or two of Solid Gold Seameal, that's might be helping as well.


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## Amanda Layne (Aug 9, 2006)

6 cups of food a day? ****gasp**** Wow, that is alot. I feed 3 dogs on 6 cups a day! 2 dobes and a boxer. Well....I do feed them a can also....but wow, there is no way they would even eat 6 cups if I gave it to em.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Amanda Layne said:


> 6 cups of food a day? ****gasp**** Wow, that is alot. I feed 3 dogs on 6 cups a day! 2 dobes and a boxer. Well....I do feed them a can also....but wow, there is no way they would even eat 6 cups if I gave it to em.


i'm sure my dog would literally eat himself to death if i put enough food out. he's quite a voracious eater. i'd say he only chews about 25% of it or less. a couple weeks ago i fed him in the morning like i usually do (about 9 am). we trained from about 10 to 12:30 and broke for lunch. i put a bowl of water in the back of the car and he sucked it up VERY quickly. we drove to lunch. right when we got there, he puked in the back of the car. probably got air in his stomach from drinking the water too fast. the puke was about 50% whole kibble bits. again, this was about 3 and a half hours after he had eaten...

my first dog at one point was up to 12 cups of kibble a day. long story to that, but basically he had an intestinal issue and couldn't gain weight. he still didn't gain weight and i got tired of picking up poop so his regular meal was 9 cups a day.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I have seen dogs throw up solid kibble the next day. 

People want the food crunchy, so I guess that is one small price to pay.

Try Biljac, won't see solid chunks.


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## Amanda Layne (Aug 9, 2006)

My puppy, Ziris....would eat me out of house and home if I would let her. I think she would say her ABC's for one little morsel of food, but my other two are not ravenous eaters. I have hell keeping weight on them, especially during the summer when we train alot. It was hell last year with Rommel. They each eat 1 cup in the morning, 1 cup in the evening, and a can at each meal. They would eat all the canned food I would put down, but kibble......no way.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

My lean, 80-85 lb GSD eats 6-8 cup no matter what brand I've fed.
My 13 lb JRT has always eaten 2-3 cups a day.
I do keep them active. 
At 12yrs old, I THINK the JRT is starting to slow down. =D> 
I had to quit raw feeding when I was retired early. 
One of these days!


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## Andy Andrews (May 9, 2006)

Ya'll must like your dogs on the plump side! LOL

My last APBT bitch was 35lbs on the chain, about 28lbs lean and fit. I fed Innova(green bag) almost exclusively, but she got *barely* 2 1/2 cups a day. 




Andy.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Andy Andrews said:


> ....
> My last APBT bitch was 35lbs on the chain, about 28lbs lean and fit. I fed Innova(green bag) almost exclusively, but she got *barely* 2 1/2 cups a day.
> 
> 
> ...


Metabolism aside, exercise level aside, size of the dog aside, the contents of the food have a decided bearing on the amount needed.


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## Andy Andrews (May 9, 2006)

Yet *another* failed attempt at humor. Thanks Connie! lol



Andy.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Never had a fat dog in my life. Fact is, I was chastised in the vets office by some "sweet" little old lady, with a grossly overweight dog. She said I should be arrested for letting my dog starve. :roll: 
My vet, of 35 yrs, came out to quiet her down before she wound up in the dumpster. 
She was in her 70s and very small. I think I coulda whipped her......maybe! :lol: :wink:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Andy Andrews said:


> Yet *another* failed attempt at humor. Thanks Connie! lol
> 
> 
> 
> Andy.


Hmmm.

Still missing it........


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## Andy Andrews (May 9, 2006)

Don't worry, I'm not quitting my day job. hehe...


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Never had a fat dog in my life. Fact is, I was chastised in the vets office by some "sweet" little old lady, with a grossly overweight dog. She said I should be arrested for letting my dog starve. :roll:
> My vet, of 35 yrs, came out to quiet her down before she wound up in the dumpster.
> She was in her 70s and very small. I think I coulda whipped her......maybe! :lol: :wink:


Pete coulda taken her, no prob.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Pete coulda taken her, no prob.


He was definately eyeing up her little piglet. :lol:


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Speaking of plump dogs, I have a really nice neighbor who has a pit mix. In the last year that dog has grown as wide as he is tall. (well maybe not quite). The dog gets very little exercise too. Yesterday my neighbor was once again telling me how hard a time he has getting his dog to finish his dinner. He buys all kinds of goodies like chicken mcnuggets or gravy to mix in with his big ole' bowl of Kibbles & Bits. I've given up trying to help. Now I just watch the incredible expanding doggy. It's too bad, he's a really nice dog.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Is he nice enough for you to explain how he's killing his dog?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

We had that same pitx at the kennel!!! Is he grey and white???


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I've really tried, but I can tell by the way my neighbor responds he doesn't believe me. I think in his mind he is compensating for leaving the dog home while he goes to work. Some people just love their dogs to death.


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## Becky Shilling (Jul 11, 2006)

We had a Cocker that was a regular client at one clinic I worked that weighed almost 60 pounds. When freshly groomed he looked like a fringed ottoman. Every time the vet would try to convince her the dog was overweight, the lady would start crying and ask why he was "attacking" her. Of course, the dog died an early death when he could no longer get his fat butt up to walk.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

OMG!!!!! We had that dog too. But it was an old man......too old to make fun of properly without feeling bad.

Luckily, I recover quickly.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

It really is sad what people do to their dogs 'out of love.' I've been told several times (usually by owners of overweight labs :lol: ) that I need to feed my dogs more. I just tell them that maybe their idea of a healthy dog is skewed a bit, and continue on my merry way while they continue on their merry way with their poor, waddling dog. 


I feed Canidae, as most of you know.
Jak and Jessie both get 3 cups a day, split between morning and evening.
Gypsy gets 1.5 - 2 cups a day, as one meal; otherwise she pukes up bile during the night.


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