# drago son vs unknown bitch



## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7x45v-5uDgA 12 month old knpv pup

vs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmXAdo3qyWU 12 month old ipo pup, son of Drago 

(not to be taken seriously , and start world war 3 over which is better etc)

ps i like the drago, anyone keeping track of his offspring?

(maybe drago and some of those knpv titled gsd that won last year might just save the working gsd)


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

Michael Murphy said:


> (maybe drago and some of those knpv titled gsd that won last year might just save the working gsd)


Yes, I´m sure those 2-3 KNPV GSDs from SCH-lines are going to "save" the breed


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

well its a step in the right direction!, if more of them start becoming successful the demand for the high drive , strong nerve dogs will increase ( its no secret they get tested harder in the knpv then the ipo).

do you know how the czech kennels are doing lately? they were really getting some attention a few years ago with their old school zps blood etc


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Using dogs that are very well trained and make no mistakes on the sport competition field is not the way to improve the breed. I think that is part of the reason the breed is in trouble now.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Michael Murphy said:


> if more of them start becoming successful the demand for the high drive , strong nerve dogs will increase ( its no secret they get tested harder in the knpv then the ipo).


You think there is not already a demand for high drive, strong nerved dogs? I get calls for dogs everyday, but I don't remember ever getting a call from someone looking for a low drive working dog with bad nerves.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Michael Murphy said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7x45v-5uDgA 12 month old knpv pup
> 
> vs
> 
> ...


Winning a competition does not a breed save.... 

It doesn't make the dog better or fiercer, it shows it can work the exercises and bring in the points... What do points say about a dog tho? 

I'd rather have a dog lose points but do whatever I require in any given situation then a dog that will give me the points but might be unreliable when I need its assistance the most.... 

The problem is that most people think that points make the dog... They might make the dog on the sporting field but in real life, those points are pretty much useless if there is nothing in the dog to back it up. KNPV might have a part that is sports focussed but at the end of the day, the larger portion of dogs getting trained to be sold into LE and MIL...

JMO


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

are the ph 1 german shepherds not going to the police? or are they being held back for more competing


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Not sure if dogs are better or worse then in the past or if the standards have gone way up on what a good dog actually is. Since people can travel all over the world and look at dogs or they can just watch it practically for free on youtube. You can see the best dogs in the world go and it can cause people to compare the local club level dogs to them. Most people have a tendency to remember the past better then in actually was too...


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

i THINK the demand for what people want in a dog has changed, and so the dogs have.

examples

bullmastiffs (i remember reading) were used to protect diamond mines in africa 

boerboel has fierce guard dogs of their owners , property , against both people and wild animals

neopolitan mastiffs and other mastiffs , used to fight other wild animals and humans in the colosseum, also used in wars

dobermans fierce personal protection dogs

german shepherds (post herding) military dogs , police dogs, personal protection dogs, border patrol dogs

if the dogs mentioned above could not do those things they would have been dismissed/let go/ destroyed/ not bred from.


fast forward , 

all the above mentioned dogs wanted by rich old ladies/gentlmen to look pretty in their establishment, and to parade in a circle in front of an audience. these people want friendly little fluffy puppies, not high fight, high dominant , potential killing machines etc

and hence the selction process begin to satisfy the current demand, certain qualities are lost.

even in "working dog circles" ie sports dog circles, the demand is mainly for a dog that is easily controlled , compliant , willing to please its owner and score high points

hence the demise of the gsd, and the rise of the malinois, were among a select few have lines, the demand has continued to be for dogs that will track and pretty much stop man etc

i


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## Jason Davis (Oct 12, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> You think there is not already a demand for high drive, strong nerved dogs? I get calls for dogs everyday, but I don't remember ever getting a call from someone looking for a low drive working dog with bad nerves.


Hey Mike. I'm looking for a dog. I need something that will ignore toys and freaks out in new areas. Maybe something with bad hips too if you don't mind. Thanks and have a great day!!


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Michael Murphy said:


> i THINK the demand for what people want in a dog has changed, and so the dogs have.
> 
> examples
> 
> ...


I believe GSD have always been versatile they used them as seeing eye dogs in WWI era. I can't picure mals or dutch shepherds doing that. It could be a disaster.


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## patricia powers (Nov 14, 2010)

mike suttle said:


> Using dogs that are very well trained and make no mistakes on the sport competition field is not the way to improve the breed. I think that is part of the reason the breed is in trouble now.


 I have to agree with mike. the whole purpose of dogsport in the beginning was to TEST the dogs.  it isn't a test anymore. dogs are TRAINED to pass--and further, they are trained for higher and higher points. then everyone flocks to the high point dogs for breeding. these are MADE dogs. now, I don't want anyone to think I am bashing dogsports. i'm not. what I am saying is that a dog that is trained to pass is a creation. very little of the original, raw dog remains in what you see. it takes one who knows dogs really really well to be able to read a highly trained dog. most folks don't have a real breeding program. they breed willy nilly to whoever is winning. points, titles and training are not going to land in your welping box----genetics do. 
pjp


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## Sue DiCero (Sep 2, 2006)

Drago is not a point dog, per se. He is like the dogs from 10 years ago. Intense, hard, pushy.

I have seen him multiple times close up and worked. Nice.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Sue DiCero said:


> Drago is not a point dog, per se. He is like the dogs from 10 years ago. Intense, hard, pushy.
> 
> I have seen him multiple times close up and worked. Nice.


You are correct Sue, I wasn't talking about Drago when I posted my comments about people trying to improve the GSD breed by using dogs that are making no mistakes on the trial field and therefore winning events because they are trained very well and earn very high points.
I have actually recommended Drago to several people who have ask me about GSD stud dogs.


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## Sue DiCero (Sep 2, 2006)

Mike,

Did not take it that way .

Would like to see more dogs like that, both male and female.


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

sue , i really like the bottom half of the pedigree of your dog Enzo


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## Sue DiCero (Sep 2, 2006)

Thank you. Went back to that mother line: Gabor imported in Chuna and sold her to Tom Trainor.... Loved that dog!


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

I don´t know if the GSD needs to be "saved", even if more mals are working in middle east as was recently discussed Wouldn´t hurt with some higher standards thou in the breed as a whole. KNPV is of course not going to save anything when it comes to the GSD, look beoynd titles and instead focus on what the dog really can pass on genetically instead, then it doesn´t matter so much what titles or not the dog has.

This dog in this interview for example, is a PSD with detection for blood,semen etc as his speciality, is after this stud(pedigree below) who comes from a long line of dogs breed only for service by the military, so it´s not like KNPV, IPO or other sporttitles is a must for a breedingprogram, on the other hand I suppose some good qualities a must dog have to be able to work impressively in both IPO or the other sports available.
http://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/artikkel.php?artid=591117
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=426635-hs-9587-ibex


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

one of the biggest problem is the black holes of LE and MWD status, genetically speaking.

It is doent seem real common policy that serivce dogs are able get bred, and if it is done it is often breaking the rules.


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

Michael Murphy said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7x45v-5uDgA 12 month old knpv pup
> 
> vs
> 
> ...


Holy wow!!! I am in love w/ him (Drago son). Are all his offspring like that?! Yeah. Who's following? Give us an update!


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Ben Thompson said:


> I believe GSD have always been versatile they used them as seeing eye dogs in WWI era. I can't picure mals or dutch shepherds doing that. It could be a disaster.



Belgian Shepherds have been used as seeing eye dogs since the early 1900's.


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> one of the biggest problem is the black holes of LE and MWD status, genetically speaking.
> 
> It is doent seem real common policy that serivce dogs are able get bred, and if it is done it is often breaking the rules.


Depends where you live I suppose, quite many servicedogs are used in breedings at least in the nordic countries. Not so many in germany what I´ve seen, don´t know if there is regulations against it or it´s the fact they need to do the german korung first which keep the servicedogs away.


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