# Send Away



## Guest

I'm ready for a shotgun blast of ideas for this stupid exercise. :evil: 

I don't like it, I don't get it, and my horrible attitude about it encroaches in my feeble attempts at it.

But before that, answer me this, and put my optimism out of its misery once and for all:

It's pretty much contingent about the dog really believing the reward is "out there", right?


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## Steve Strom

I think it is, but I wonder if at some point it just becomes fun for some dogs to charge out there. Some dogs act like they're looking for the reward the whole time and others just charge straight out and down quickly on command. I know it has to have to do with the training but the ones who do it best just seem to enjoy the exercise itself. It's funny you feel like you do, I'm just the opposite. It's always been a favorite of mine.


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## Gillian Schuler

Yeah, yeah and nochmals yeah!

I put out a dog bowl (pretty high, for cocker spaniels (ears). The dog has to really see the end reward. I increased distanced backwards from dog bowl (I put cat food in it). Afterwards I distance myself so that the dog can't see it (but it's there).

It worked - the end result is the dog has to believe the bowl is there. Or the bite roll on a stand, or whatever.

I watched a well known Belgian trainer who said the dog learns the sendaway only when he is "downed" in between. He uses a "selfmade" Flyball.

I've never had trouble with the simple "reward" always at the end of the training field and recall with reward, bite roll or food, both "equal". 

On trial day, comes the "down" which the dog has learnt apart from this exercise.

I'd be interested in other opinions, too.


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## James Downey

At first it's all about the dog trusting and KNOWING exactly where the reward is. I assume your having searching problems the dog is looking all over the ball or is not going out. I always put the ball against a barrier like a fence, brush line, garage. whatever....

I never move the dog or the ball .the distance is always a little longer than trial regs...here is why. First if the dog is always at different lengths from the ball they are going to go shopping and start searching for it. because in there mind the ball could be anywhere.

putting the ball up against a barrier is a fail safe....Run until you cannot....the ball is always at the barrier. this is what I want the dog to learn.

So, what I do is platz the dog, at the start. I show him I have the ball. I let him see me put on a piece of PVC stuck in the ground. the pvc stands just above the grass. I say Vorhaus. and point to the ball. and I mean right on it. I do not want the dog to question where the ball is. ( I go back to this on trial day on new fields) So when I see the dog start understand where the toy is. I move a few paces back. Session after session, I keep increasing the distance I am from the ball. Till I get to the dog. Now once I have this I teach the dog to down. 

At first I am about 20 paces from the ball in between the dog and the ball. as soon as the dog gets to me I give him the ball from my pocket. then I start making him down longer and longer. this is crucial because if you do not do this the dog will get up and go look for his ball at the barrier. 


Session after session I move closer to the dogs starting point, Only plazting the dog one time out of ten.

I want the dog to learn to run...and if I say down I have your ball.

I have seen people use the E-collar to down thier dog...What I have seen is dogs who were fast, are now slow. Going to the end of the field means getting shocked.


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## Guest

Thanks James. That was the kind of response I was looking for.



> ( I go back to this on trial day on new fields)


This introduces basic question #2....is there such a thing as a _truly generalized send away_?


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## Lloyd Kasakoff

Great topic.

We're in the process of training some new puppies, and given our extended relocation, did so without advice or a club. 

I have been using the send away comand as an antecedent to a throw on a retrieve. 

In other words, I tell the dog "Vorhaus", throw the object, he starts his run, brings the object back. The intent is to eventually move to the "bowl" or the "Ball" once he's got the retrieve. 

I'm also back chaining the retrieve by trying to get him to calmly hold the object, hoping to tie the two together (vorhaus....bring...or hup....bring...)....

Thoughts on the vorhaus/send away command prior to the retrieve?


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## Anne Vaini

I'm with Steven on this one. I don't want to train this the usual way. I don't like it.

Emma could benefit from learning this. Maybe I will see if I can free-shape it. I will get frustrated eally fast because she is going to think that I am free-shaping a spin. I began that by clicking when she turned away from me.


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## Chris Michalek

I taught my dog the send out and how to run around blinds at the same time with the exercise.

I used a microphone stand at first but you could use a stick in the ground. I first taught the dog to go around the mic stand. Then I increased the distance. Then I changed objects. Then I increased distance again.

Eventually (2wks) I was able to put the mic stand out in the middle of a field about 50yds out. I give the command and the hand signal and off he goes. For the send out, all I did was point and the dog thinks there is something to run around somewhere down the field so he runs and I yell PLATZ some time before he gets to the object. 

Your down command as distance has to be solid before you do this.


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## Jenn Schoonbrood

Hey Steve,

I like to teach the S/A as a branch of the "place" command. I was just having this discussion last week at the club, and the reason I don't like to teach it as a "reward is out there in this location" kind of thing is because a) you're right, the dog can have trouble generalizing and b) LORD help your score if there's a Kleenex or something brightly coloured by accident at that end of the field during a trial. I've seen it happen.

I start with it as a place command, to a place board that is very close, and do so in various locations. After practicing drops on S/A BEFORE the place command, and gradually building the distance to GREATER than what would be expected in a trial and practicing, my dogs end up "trusting" that the place board is always somewhere out there even if they never reach it.

I've also "generalized" place to mean onto a picnic table, up a tree, whatever (that sort of happens automatically) and to my dog, the S/A command is "run straight ahead until told otherwise or until you reach that target, whatever it is."

Maybe not the best way, but the way that makes the most sense to me. I've never had trouble with my dogs going after Kleenex or chip bags at the end of the field, and I don't have problems with generalization. Of course the "reward" to my dog (which is never at the end of the field) is contingent on a marker word and then a period of play once the dog returns to me. I've really found marker/reward beneficial in exercises like this where the handler is working away from the dog.

Jenn


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## Michelle Reusser

Great thread, I love hearing how people put their own spin on training. Best way to possibly come up with something that might work for you.


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## James Downey

Lloyd Kasakoff said:


> Great topic.
> 
> We're in the process of training some new puppies, and given our extended relocation, did so without advice or a club.
> 
> I have been using the send away comand as an antecedent to a throw on a retrieve.
> 
> In other words, I tell the dog "Vorhaus", throw the object, he starts his run, brings the object back. The intent is to eventually move to the "bowl" or the "Ball" once he's got the retrieve.
> 
> I'm also back chaining the retrieve by trying to get him to calmly hold the object, hoping to tie the two together (vorhaus....bring...or hup....bring...)....
> 
> Thoughts on the vorhaus/send away command prior to the retrieve?


 
I think if your doing everything with motivation, you really cannot mess up the dog in anyway that you cannot easily fix later. You may get things like the dog thinking he may have to come back to you. But that's not huge.


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## Rose DeLuca

Such a good topic ! I had a terrible time with a "premature downer" who would fly out, down on her own and be very pleased with herself. You gotta love (?!) those dogs who try to out think you..........

My second dog for SchH is just doing go out and running fast to a reward.......then

I practice the down at a distance in other places away from regular schh training such as if he is just playing ball in the yard or in motion in some other way - either running away or running to me etc. Then I mark it (good boy) or dont aaack.... depending on if I like it or not. I'm a huge Ivan B. fan ! Its been so much easier with this dog -


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I watch the "fence" people get screwed in trials all the time. My recent experiences confirm this.

The field trial people teach the dog to turn off the collar by running to a pole as part of the send away.

I would find a site that they have and question them, they are the definitive masters of this. What we do is a goof compared to their work. The send out is the basis of everything they do.

Massive repetitions is in order to get something, even then, like in my case, it can get blown to bits fairly easily. 

Sucks for sure, but when you get a dog doing it really nice, people like me appreciate the heck out of the work done.


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## Bob Scott

I've had good luck with the sendout by putting the dog on a sit while he watches me place the toy at a certain spot. Go back to the dog and send the dog. I add distance by moving myself and the dog. Never the toy. 
Once he's really solid on this I will add the "platz" only every 10-15 sendouts in order to avoid anticipation. 
When both are really solid I will send to dog, "Platz'" then go to the dog. Sometimes a mark then reward with a toy I have with me, or mark and let the dog go to the toy and get it. Sometimes I will "fuss" the dog away , mark and reward the fussing. 
Never, never fall into repeating anything that will make the dog start anticipating.
When I was doing Utility in AKC obedience I would put the gloves in a circle around me and teach the dog to go to individual gloves. 
Start the gloves at 6 and 12 on a clock. As the dog gets better then add gloves and distance but never gloves and distance togeteher. 
This teaches the dog to go where your hand directs it. No reason why it couldn't work on a sendout. 

Interesting side about the sendout. At the WUSV World you could tell that the handlers didn't know that the sendout would not be on line with the center of the field when they practiced.
During the trial MANY of the dogs ran off line in order to go to the center of the back wall where their handlers practiced putting the toys. 
My guess on moving it off of center was because the dirt area of the baseball infield had been sodded for the trial. Maybe the judges didn't want the dogs running across two different surfaces during the trial. Just a guess.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Mondio judges set up the send away on purpose to **** your training up. MAN I love this sport.:smile:


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## Anne Vaini

I've done a couple free-shapping sessions on the send out with Emma. It is slow. It's much faster to have your dog do the exercsie straight away and then deal with problems later. Not my style.

For my purposes, I'm teaching Emma the definition of "go" to mean: face away from me, walk away from me in a straight line, directly forwards *and continue until I say otherwise*. I'll get to the down part later (or not).

Emma is moving forward from fuss in a straight line for 1 - 4 steps. I'm making the distance (duration) random. I do see that she is hesitating and wanting to turn back to me sometimes. I give a verbal warning/negative marker/no-reward marker, call her to fuss and have her try again. If I were to only give the command "go" again, she would end up running out 2 steps, spinning in a circle, going another 2 steps, spin in a circle, go 2 more steps spin in a circle... yeah. :lol: Don't want to go there!


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## Kristen Cabe

Jenn Ruzsa said:


> I like to teach the S/A as a branch of the "place" command.


This is intriguing to me. I'd love to hear more about this method. What I don't really 'get' is what would keep the dog from searching for the 'whatever' that is its target, similar to the dog looking for his toy at the end of the field. ?


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## Guest

Who's inclined to videotape some training and a reasonably finished product?

And then remind me how you trained it.


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## Jenn Schoonbrood

Kristen Cabe said:


> This is intriguing to me. I'd love to hear more about this method. What I don't really 'get' is what would keep the dog from searching for the 'whatever' that is its target, similar to the dog looking for his toy at the end of the field. ?


Hi Kristen,

Well, it really does become a matter of conditioning that "whatever" it is is out there in a straight line. It's a concept that is similar to a retriever mark, however the distance is much shorter in any trial than on some hunts, therefore I have to give the retriever trainers credit where credit is due!

I start out by using several place boards scattered about, with lots of distance between them at first. By aligning my body (and the dog, in heel position) to a board of my choosing I can direct him. As the dog advances, my criteria change and sometimes instead of increasing distance I have the boards closer together (where the dog can see them at first, and for quite some time).

What you end up with in this "interim" step of training is a dog that, when correctly aligned with a board, can distinguish the place board you want him to go to from other boards only 6" apart from it. The key here is proper alignment with the board, just as the key in a trial is proper alignment with your line.

Of course if the dog makes a mistake and goes to the wrong board, it is not rewarded. He then learns that the "correct" answer is the board straight ahead. What happens as you increase distance is he'll head out for that board straight ahead even if he can't see it.

The concept of the straight line is not really all that different from placing a toy at the end of the field, I just appreciate this method better for not creating a dog who is actively seeking the reward out there. Instead the reward (marked by a yes and a return to me for play) has nothing to do with "out there" and thus he remains complately focused on me, not the ground out there.

I know it's probably easier said than done. I will definitely record exercises like this as I train my new prospect, and will share them with the board.


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## Guest

Ok, something just clicked in my head with Jennifer's latest contribution. Something clicked indeed. \\/ 

We shall see.


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## Anne Vaini

Jenn,

I REALLY like that idea. Creating a thinking dog is always good! 

I'm going to continue with free-shaping as I need the dog to continue moving forward until told otherwise, rather than to move forward to a specified location.

Emmas doesn't yet understand the what I am getting at, she has had a few interesting superstitutions. For a while she thought she should go to and circle a post in my basement. Then, she went out 8 feet and did a stand stay facing away from me. :lol: She'll figure it out someday. I only have 30 minutes in this. I 'm curious to see if it is possible. I have perviously thought it was not.


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## Lisa Maze

Anne Vaini said:


> I'm with Steven on this one. I don't want to train this the usual way. I don't like it.
> 
> Emma could benefit from learning this. Maybe I will see if I can free-shape it. I will get frustrated eally fast because she is going to think that I am free-shaping a spin. I began that by clicking when she turned away from me.


Michael Ellis has had great success with using a touch pad and a marker (bridge) on the send aways. I think it would be needlessly time consuming to try to get a fast, straight send away with no "popping" (looking back over their shoulder) with free shaping. You can free shape the initial approach to the touch pad then use it as a target to increase distance. Start with the touch pad visible from where the dog is sitting in heel postion until they are going out strongly then gradually increase the distance. Once the dog is going out strongly on cue with good reliability while the touch pad is visible to the dog (who is sitting in heel position) the next step is to shorten the distance but begin to set the touch pad up so the dog cannot see it as you give the cue but will be able to see it within a stride or two of leaving your side. The best bet is to look for a subtle chage of terrain such as a dip in the grass where you can set the touch pad. Keep in mind, we want it hidden from the dog so get down on your knees to see things from his perspective.

I especially love this method for the ringsports as it creates a very tight turn on the whistle (later) and a very fast recall. This method also lends itself well to later force as the touch pad makes a good "safe spot".

I use a variation of the tried and true "blind retrieve" method the retriever trainers use. Since the sendaway can be any direction on a MR field past obstacles and distractions etc. it is the surest method for proofing for a "junk yard" trial field.

One of the most important aspects of teaching the sendaway is "pre-cueing". In Schutzhund the routine serves as a cue to the dog which exercise is coming next but in the ringsports the OB order changes each time. It is important to develop a ritual that cues the dog the sendaway is the next exercise. As we head up the field to the line of departure I ask my boys where their toy is and then make a left circle to "load" them up. I then make sure I take several steps in the direction of the sendaway to line them up. I will change my body position as I stop if their spine is not in alignment with the path I want them to take.

Trick judges in MR are always trying to mess you up so beware if this is your sport of choice. I just heard that Neal Wallace put the prepatory (where you are permited to cue the dog what the next exercise is) line in a different direction than the line of departure (where the actual exercise begins. Personally, I think it was not in the spirit of the sport (if you are allowed prepatory cues the judge should not try to undermine them in the trial.

Lisa


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## Laura Bollschweiler

While at the WUSV, one dog's send-away caught my attention. He went out not super fast but super straight. There was something special about it that I couldn't put my finger on...so thinking out loud, I said, "hmm, not the fastest dog out there..." The friend I was with nailed it by finishing my sentence "...but you can tell he'll keep going until told to stop." The difference was that the dog wasn't running towards something, he was being _sent away_. 

I would really like to know how that dog was trained!

Laura


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## Lisa Maze

Kristen Cabe said:


> This is intriguing to me. I'd love to hear more about this method. What I don't really 'get' is what would keep the dog from searching for the 'whatever' that is its target, similar to the dog looking for his toy at the end of the field. ?


The send away is one exercise where "variety is NOT the spice of life". Use the same type of toy everytime so the dog is not distracted by a bit of paper on the field. I no longer use white bumpers as I found my dogs were much more easily sucked into something the sun was reflecting off of at a distance when I did.

If you use a "place marker" use the same mat everytime so the dog doesn't start looking for sprinkler covers etc.. Like everything else it is in part about proofing.

Keep in mind...the sendaway is a specific exercise with slight variations in the three sports. There are lots of similar exercises like going to a place on command. Going forward on cue to search for an object. My dogs know "go" means go away from me and it can be modified with many other commands (go hup, go place, go get it, go to he**). Feist also knows "va" which is go around something. Teach all the general principles of the sendaway seperately but be sure not to use the "cue" you want to use in trial until you have a fairly close approximation of the behavior.

Lisa


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## Anne Vaini

Lisa,

I use the "go" command. My dogs have one heck of a send-away if it's "go home" or "go car." :lol:

Let's say your dog gets loose on a divided highway. Because of traffic, it's unsafe to call your dog to you and it's unsafe for your dog to sit/down where it is. Could you send your dog AWAY from you? That is my (mental) test of a send away. I've had the above scenario happen many times with a loose dog - and not necessarily my dog. I live by a divded highway in between 2 intersections and I can remember at least twice trying to catch a stray dog when the 3 lanes between me and the dog were full of cars, but the 3 lanes on the other side (away from me) were free of traffic.

I'm not training for trials, so I don't need it to be flashy, pretty or in drive. I just need it to work. Go away from me until otherwise directed. 

Can I free-shape it? I don't know. I have time to waste with Emma recovering from surgery, so I'll find out.


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## David Scholes

Anne Vaini said:


> Lisa,
> 
> I use the "go" command. My dogs have one heck of a send-away if it's "go home" or "go car." :lol:
> 
> Let's say your dog gets loose on a divided highway. Because of traffic, it's unsafe to call your dog to you and it's unsafe for your dog to sit/down where it is. Could you send your dog AWAY from you? That is my (mental) test of a send away. I've had the above scenario happen many times with a loose dog - and not necessarily my dog. I live by a divded highway in between 2 intersections and I can remember at least twice trying to catch a stray dog when the 3 lanes between me and the dog were full of cars, but the 3 lanes on the other side (away from me) were free of traffic...


A couple months ago I nailed an aussie in my crown vic. Hit on the license plate and went right over the top of it. The owner was calling it home from across the street and it just darted in front before I could react. Thought for sure it was dead but after five minutes it was up and around. Luckily the bumber is plastic. Definitely see the need for a "stay" or "go" command. Sad at first with kids crying thinking I'd killed their dog.


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## Lisa Maze

Anne Vaini said:


> Lisa,
> 
> I use the "go" command. My dogs have one heck of a send-away if it's "go home" or "go car." :lol:
> 
> Let's say your dog gets loose on a divided highway. Because of traffic, it's unsafe to call your dog to you and it's unsafe for your dog to sit/down where it is. Could you send your dog AWAY from you? That is my (mental) test of a send away. I've had the above scenario happen many times with a loose dog - and not necessarily my dog. I live by a divded highway in between 2 intersections and I can remember at least twice trying to catch a stray dog when the 3 lanes between me and the dog were full of cars, but the 3 lanes on the other side (away from me) were free of traffic.
> 
> I'm not training for trials, so I don't need it to be flashy, pretty or in drive. I just need it to work. Go away from me until otherwise directed.
> 
> Can I free-shape it? I don't know. I have time to waste with Emma recovering from surgery, so I'll find out.


As I mentioned in my second post there are all sorts of informal versions of "the send away" as well as many other obedience exercises that contain similar elements (the blinds in Schutzhund for example). When on a working dog forum talking about "the send away" I somewhat assume we are talking about some approximation of the formal version.

Even if you are just looking to teach your dogs to move away from you on command I think free shaping the entire behavior is more time consuming than needed. Even behaviors that are not destined to be judged in competition are time sensitive. Your scenario of a dog in traffic is the perfect example. A rough approximation of go away from you may just serve to put the dog in the path of an oncoming car and briskness will get him out of the street before a car comes along on that side.

Yes, my dogs will move away from me on command...here are the variations for giggles:

Shoo-move a little ways away from me...a leg's length to be specific.

Get Out-turn away from me and get out of Dodge or get out of the room, arena, etc.. This is for when they are facing me and I want them to turn and go the way I am facing.

Go-move forward in the same direction we are both facing. As mentioned often with a modifier. If it is an open ended "go" it ends when marked with a "yes" or when another command is issued.

Place-Go forward to the place I am indicating and get on it.

En Evant-formal sendaway.

Send Aways are on my list of specialties. Feist is my poster child. A year or so at the dog beach one of my Malinois girls (about a year old) swam out in the channel to retrieve a ball then realized she was closer to the opposite side. Once she came ashore on the jetty that divided the bay from the ocean she could not convince herself to climb down and back into the water. After 15 minutes of calling I decided to trek across the deep, hot sand to get Feist out of the truck hoping he could lure her back across. I set him up and told him to "En Evant". He swam across the channel as asked but my little girl was not convinced. An on-looker offered to swim across to get her and jumped in an was halfway across before I realized she did not have a leash. When she got across my Mali girl came right up to her but would not lead by the scruff so I called Feist back, handed him a leash and sent him back across. As asked, he delivered the leash but there was a comic moment when the rescuer had my girl by the scruff and reached for the leash in Feist's mouth. He wanted to tug with her and she was pulled back and forth for a few minutes until I could muster sufficient volume in my voice to convey to Feist across the channel that he had to let go.

I do not mean to tell you free shaping or your choice of training whatever it is is a "waste of time" but one of the factors by which I select the method I will use to teach a behavior is time...how soon I need the behavior and which is the fastest method that will give me the closest approximation to the behavior I need.

Lisa


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## Anne Vaini

I had an idea while training. I had trained Emma the go to place. And she was picking out items believing that she was being sent to them.

So why not take Jenn's idea but kick it up just a notch. Go as far as she describes, then put two mat in a straight line. We expect the dog to go to the first and be confused. Send the dog to the further mat. Set three mats in a row send the dog to the far mat. Then send the dog to the near mat.

Mix it up until the dog is responding to comand, not proximity of a mat.

Then kick it up a notch again. Rather than fading out the mats which could leave you with a dog dog looking for a place marker, set out two mats in a row. The dog will stop at the farther mat and be confused. Send the dog PAST the mat to absolutely nothing.

Once the dog can be sent on cue, past place markers and down on cue at any distance, then maybe practice down on recall on those mats on the way back. 

Purely theory. I made it up. Any opinions? I want to test it out!


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## Bob Scott

Other then trying to outrun the e-collar or running for a toy or food, how do all of you develop speed on the sendout?
My choice is a high value toy.
In particular the free shaping. I'm a big believer in it but don't see how you could develope the needed speed.


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## Jenn Schoonbrood

Anne Vaini said:


> Purely theory. I made it up. Any opinions? I want to test it out!


Anne,

Forgive me, I may have misunderstood your post, but what is the idea behind the boards in a row? I think there's value in any sort of directional commands, of course, but not sure what this accomplishes as it pertains to the S/A.

I do agree that ultimately, the dog should be "sent to absolutely nothing" but there comes a point when the distance between starting point and place board is SO GREAT that the existence of the place board is just theoretical. And at that point the action of running away in a straight line has been trained.

I've never attempted to train the way you have described, but I can certainly say with absolute confidence that the dog "gets" the action of running away quite quickly. I don't know for certain, but I'm fairly confident that at some point the dog isn't thinking about the place board anymore. In this respect the place board is exactly like a target that, once phased out, doesn't leave the dog looking for the target - the behaviour has been learned.


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## Jenn Schoonbrood

Bob Scott said:


> Other then trying to outrun the e-collar or running for a toy or food, how do all of you develop speed on the sendout?
> My choice is a high value toy.
> In particular the free shaping. I'm a big believer in it but don't see how you could develope the needed speed.


The S/A is one thing I've never felt I had to use an e-collar for. For some reason, the dogs LOVE it. It's a very rewarding behaviour for them and I am not sure why. It is possible that because I target train from a very early age it's something easy, that they "get" and that in itself is very rewarding.

I agree that a high value toy (not at the end of the field, though) is certainly not going to hurt. :mrgreen:


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## Anne Vaini

Reason for two boards in a row is to prevent the dog that chooses to fly out into the field and down too soon. It's to begin to isolate the action from proximity to an object.

As for free-shaping the deal, I'm working on accuracy and direction. No matter what direction I stand or what she is close to, that she moves out in front of me in a straight line. It's fascinating to watch her brain working. 

This happened yesterday: She was going around a post about 5 feet in front of me. I gave her a no-reward mark for turning her head to the post. Try again. She veered to the other side, verbal correction. Try again. She walked out to the spot, stopped and thought for a while. She looked at me (no response from me). She thought for a while, then took a step forward. Jackpot! She learned the direction she should go. She learned not to veer off the path. She learned it has nothing to do with an object nearby. She learned that there is no reward and no reaction of any kind for standing still or turning back. She learned that moving straight forward is highly rewarded. And all I did was wait for her to figure it out.

I have been thinking about acheiving speed. I think a careful mark and choosing the value of the reward well will achieve speed. If the dog understands that moving away is the behavior that is rewarded, then there should not be a problem. If the dog believes that returning to you is the behavior that is rewarded, you have a problem.


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## tracey schneider

Chris Michalek said:


> I taught my dog the send out and how to run around blinds at the same time with the exercise.
> 
> I used a microphone stand at first but you could use a stick in the ground. I first taught the dog to go around the mic stand. Then I increased the distance. Then I changed objects. Then I increased distance again.
> 
> Eventually (2wks) I was able to put the mic stand out in the middle of a field about 50yds out. I give the command and the hand signal and off he goes. For the send out, all I did was point and the dog thinks there is something to run around somewhere down the field so he runs and I yell PLATZ some time before he gets to the object.
> 
> Your down command as distance has to be solid before you do this.


 
does the dog ever run towards the blinds?

t


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## Guest

Ok, with a little information this is becoming a bit more tolerable.

Yesterday I gave some touch pad refresher training.

Today, I started the send away with the touch pad in an organized fashion.

Here is how it progressed with every attempt (except the first one where he started biting the pad :roll: ). As the distance increased, the pad became hidden due being in a slight ditch. Be sure to turn up the volume to hear my little tea kettle.

Short:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbTPYi8cJeI

little farther: 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_4u3hs6FQQ

Little farther and not shy about anticipating:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uc-GoNl0cfU

Little farther:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MkOM0iGidqI

Little farther:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjcGLQhLbCk

Little farther
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLTUuPBRoC0

First shot at giving a down before he gets there. Seems to get it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijno8xm08cI


And finally here he is fully anticipating the down, without me calling it, and before he gets to the pad. I presume I should hardly ever even mess with downing at this point. I still want to see more speed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTyWo7IgYAM


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## Anne Vaini

Very Nice!


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## Steve Strom

Wow, 2 days!! Just imagine if you liked the send out. Lol.


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## Phil Dodson

> That was impressive!


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## Anne Vaini

Steve,

To get speed, back off on duration. Work shorter distances, don't ask for a stay, reward highly.

I'm pleased with Emma's progress on the free-shaping. Session 1 today was on speed. Nice! Session 2 was adding the down. 

I'm having her down facing away from me because I think it looks cool, because it is training an emergency down at the same time and because it is reinforcing my definition of recall which is "TURN to me, come to me."

I can see that I will need to focus on speed again after I am happy with the downs. And then I can add distance.


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## Kristen Cabe

So, Steven, when you began, did you cue the down on the pad as part of the 'touch' exercise?


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## Guest

Yes, marking once he gets to the pad.



> To get speed, back off on duration.


You're right. He basically understands, so I don't think I need to rep him to death for purposes of basic mechanics. I'll also make this the first thing to do on cold mornings when he's all antsy.



> don't ask for a stay


There's still some degree of "staying" if the task at hand is still touching the pad. Would you still let him come back to me upon being released? Or possibly make him touch the pad, but also allow him to punch through as I throw the ball past the pad as a reward....? Maybe a build a little anticipation of the reward being out ahead of him?


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## Anne Vaini

I'm all about mixing it up when it comes to duration. Sometimes I would ask for a down and release immediately when his elbows touch the ground. Sometimes I would ask for a short stay. Sometimes I would reward on the side of the dog away from you (throw a ball or a bite). Sometimes I would call back to fuss or heir for the reward.

I mix it up so that I can see exactly what the dog believes the exercise is. Sometimes it's not what you think. I am working on eliminating cues that Emma has picked up on - dropping the leash, pointing, finger snap, etc. I like to work out all the bugs early, before adding duration/distance. It's easier for me to fix problems that way.


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## James Downey

I have to ask...is this for Sch.


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## Guest

If I were to use it for "real", then yes.

Til then I'm more interested in the principles of it rather than the proprietary cues and such.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

One big mistake that I did after the send away explosion was a lot of what you are doing now, with short and longer and longer. I also did the send away in the same direction all the time, and that was a mistake, as if I went somewhere else, the dog went back to running about 20 meters and calling it good.

The slow send outs are because the reward is always back to you, and he is giving good speed there. Try marking and throwing the ball to one side and see if he starts getting faster as the reward is OUT there, and not back to you.

This is just what I am seeing in my dog, I have a LOT of reworking to do, and I did a lot of what you are doing now.

I have thought that a device that threw the ball up in the air off remote control would be very nice, but the few that I have seen put the kibosh on that idea, as I would need at least 4.


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## Lisa Maze

https://www.lcsupply.com/Product/Dummy-Launchers/Thunder-Equipment-500-Launcher.html


How about this?

During one send away brainstorming session an idea we came up with for dogs that could be going faster out and who were not that stimulated by dead rewards on the ground was a simple manual pulley system akin to lure coursing. Just stake in a simple pulley where you want the send away to end, attach a line and you dog's favorite tug toy. Install a person some distance away on the other end of the line and have them "zip" the tug out right from under the dog's nose as it hits that point in the send away path.

Lisa


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## Guest

Lisa, Jeff,

Does that still involve making any sort of _stop_ at the touch pad? Or is one trying to catch him on the fly?


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## Lisa Maze

Steven Lepic said:


> Lisa, Jeff,
> 
> Does that still involve making any sort of _stop_ at the touch pad? Or is one trying to catch him on the fly?


The way I have seen it done and the way I think would build the most speed is for the dog to hit the pad with his front feet. Once the dog has the basic behavior of going out to the pad and stomping his front feet on it the behavior begins to look a bit like a dog running out and turning off a flyball box. As the dog's front fit hit the touch pad you mark "yes" and the dog turns and races back for its reward. Going on the same theory as flyball, the dog is racing out to hit the box and grab the ball so it can race out and trade the ball for its preferred tug toy. Creates lots of speed!

Lisa


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I started Buko with a tug on a line attached to a garden hose reel. One of our club members had access to the flat line that they use to pull cable and he had a LOT of it. 

I should have seen about getting that from him, as it makes your dog really go out well.

Things you think about after its too late. : )


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## Bob Scott

Jeff said
"I have thought that a device that threw the ball up in the air off remote control would be very nice, but the few that I have seen put the kibosh on that idea, as I would need at least 4."

I looked at Cabella's and Bass Pro Shop at quail tossers that bird dog folks use but $$$$$$$$. 
My son (Tech school teacher) keeps telling me he could whip something up with a few bits and pieces from Radio Shack. I just need to keep whippin him up to get him on the ball. 
I'm thinking that the hand operated ones (cheaper) could be rigged with a remote solenoid fairly easy.


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## James Downey

Also, Does anyone think Genetics have anything to do with this? I am talking the speed thing.

What do you make of this? 

A dog that loves it's ball, very possesive of it. In the send out. The dog will go into super drive when someone besides the handler carries the ball away. as the handler makes the dog wait in a sit. and runs to the ball fast.

Also this happens if the handler sits the dog and even stands by the ball.

But when the handler sends the dog from a sit, down, holding the collar....whatever. The dog trots at a pace that has purpose, but notwhat you'd call fast...ears up and all? The only difference no one is by the ball or carrying it away.


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## Julie Ann Alvarez

Steven Lepic said:


> Ok, with a little information this is becoming a bit more tolerable.
> 
> Yesterday I gave some touch pad refresher training.
> 
> Today, I started the send away with the touch pad in an organized fashion.
> 
> Here is how it progressed with every attempt (except the first one where he started biting the pad :roll: ). As the distance increased, the pad became hidden due being in a slight ditch. Be sure to turn up the volume to hear my little tea kettle.
> 
> Short:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbTPYi8cJeI
> 
> little farther:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_4u3hs6FQQ
> 
> Little farther and not shy about anticipating:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uc-GoNl0cfU
> 
> Little farther:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MkOM0iGidqI
> 
> Little farther:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjcGLQhLbCk
> 
> Little farther
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLTUuPBRoC0
> 
> First shot at giving a down before he gets there. Seems to get it.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijno8xm08cI
> 
> 
> And finally here he is fully anticipating the down, without me calling it, and before he gets to the pad. I presume I should hardly ever even mess with downing at this point. I still want to see more speed.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTyWo7IgYAM


bump


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## Guest

Ok, so, hitherto progress is that he'll go past random crap on the ground (toys, bite equipment, vaguely look-a-like touch pads).

But that's about it. Yesterday, I tried it without him knowing the pad was out there. Fail. Just ran around casting for it's scent.

The next step, I guess, is to just keep the damn pad exclusively at a fence line and go back to simple trickery. 

Jeff, you said someone marks on the fly. I don't see how that could possibly work. Did that. It instantly resulted in turning the geographic spot of the mark into the place he thought he was supposed to "touch".

There's no such thing as a generalized send away.

The trash heap has spoken.


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## Kristen Cabe

Have you been downing the dog before he gets to the pad at all? Maybe that's what you need to try at this stage, so he doesn't think he has to down ON the pad.

Just a newbie thought; I'm working on the same thing with Naccia.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I am going to start using the e-collar for this shit. I am not doing much better. I was getting longer sendaways, and then went to a different area from where I have been training, and retard went twenty yards and turned.

I guess when I broke the send away, I broke it good.


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## Julie Ann Alvarez

Here is some food for thought. My TD went to the worlds this year and watched the training times leading up to the trial. He said that every single team used their field time to work the send outs. He said that almost every group had a helper tossing balls or tugs over the fence where the dogs would be running to. They all started short and then ended long.

I am even more confused than ever. I haven't started training Havok the send out just yet. I am still thinking about it.


Jeff I am sure that you haven't broken anything. You may be a bit socially handicap, but you seem to have a good handle on dog training :-D 

I did break down and use my e for my AB the day before his trial and it was the first time he went and didn't look back. 

I have used sleeve on the field, elevated balls & tugs, food and I did try to have my friend throw the toy but the dog just ran to my friend after that.. He now goes but he always glances back at me and I am always sure to keep my arm up and pointing until he gets his down command.

It is not the picture I want- but maybe this summer he will go faster and stop glancing.... He is a bulldog after all and his thought process is a bit slower.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

The funny thing is you go over in your head everything from the start and all the possible things/things you have done incorrectly.

I was obsessing over it last night, and remembered that I had been over there last spring, and done send outs. He was stopping in the exact spot that I had left the tug give or take a bit, but somehow cannot figure to just go to the fence LOL. 

Then I was trying to figure out how the **** he could have remembered that, or was it just BS in my head.


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## Anne Vaini

You did distance/duration before generalizing, right?

I'm still generalizing with Emma. (I'm doing this free shaping, without sending her to a location) When I began teaching it, she was picking out objects that she thought I was sending her to. I had to get her to generalize beyond that. 

To teach her that the cue had nothing to do with objects nearby, I was setting her up so that she would basically walk into something if she went straight. She'd stop in front of it - I recued and when she attempted to move forward (like going to walk into a post) then I marked and rewarded. I would set her up so that she would have to walk under a table. She would stop and look at the table, I recue and when she started to go under the table, then mark and reward.

Then I started working on generalizing direction. Staying in the same spot, and turning to face different directions that I was sending her. This totally threw her off.

Once that was good, then I started generalizing to different locations. Moving to different areas of the same room.

I haven't trained for a while, and that is where I left off. I should work on this again someday...

I plan to go to a dramatically different location and start at the beginning of the process above. It should go quickly.

In spring, I'll get it going outdoors, starting over at the beginning again.

And when i'm confident that I have gotten her to generalize and that she understands that the cue means to move forward in a straight line in the direction I indicate, until noted otherwise, then I'll add distance and duration. 

Right now, I'm only having her go out 5 - 10 feet, but to prevent getting stuck at this distance, I'm keeping it random and if she begins to predict the mark, I send her a step or two farther.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I don't believe that dogs generalize shit. LOL Right now I am thinking about this way to much. I am going to do something else and screw that up for a while. LOL


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## Anne Vaini

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I don't believe that dogs generalize shit. LOL Right now I am thinking about this way to much. I am going to do something else and screw that up for a while. LOL


Try this:

Do the send away indoors. Stand about 10 feet back from a doorway and do a send away through it.

Then move to the side so that if your dog goes in a straight line, he'll walk into the wall. Does your dog go through the door?

Come close to the wall and send your dog to it. (I had to be about 1 foot away for Emma to get the point). When your dog moves towards the wall, mark and reward. Move back and repeat until your dog will send away in a straight line (not going through the doorway). Make sure you mark or down your dog before it gets to the wall so your dog isn't fixated on the wall.

Move over again so if your dog goes straight, it will go through the doorway. Send your dog. Does it go to the wall?

Repeat the same process to send your dog through the door.

Then go to the center of a wall (away from a doorway. Send your dog. what does it do? Chances are it will be nice and stright. Reward. Move to another spot farther away from the wall, still well away from doors, does your dog go straight?

Now turn so you are not square with a wall, and you're more-or-less working across the center of a room. Send your dog. Reward if it begins to move away straight.

In doing this, mark or down your dog before it gets to the point you are using as a frame of reference. I screwed up on the first one where Emma touched her nose to the wall at the moment I clicked. With her foundations in target training... :lol: I had to work to get out of that one!


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## Guest

> You did distance/duration before generalizing, right?


When he knows the touch-pad is out there 75 yards is no problem.

Lately, I've been putting the touch-pad out into "space", with no nearby geographic boundary to stop him.

I do ONE "mark" at any distance between, the very next time he'll stop at that exact spot. Then I'll have to move-in closer again in order for him to go all the way to the pad.

I realize how even top SchH people use the field. If that is what's required, what the hell is the point? All you're really training is the down. I've gotten straight and fast down the center of the field too, doing _that._ 

I've had better luck with him walking BACKWARDS away from me, for god's sake....which gives me another idea, but that'd be a long row to hoe.

I will believe this no-geographic-goal send-away when I see it. When someone goes to South Dakota and sends him into nothing, with no prepping. No walls, no doorways, no man-hole covers, frisbees, previously thrown balls, fences, borders of trees or tall grass, no apparent scent-casting etc etc.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Yep. E-collar. ****'em, run bitch.


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## Lisa Geller

*Re: Send Away -- Mondio style*

Hi jeff & Steve,

I think, you need a full field send away down an empty field (and careful to not do it only down the center but on the sides too), to a *non* visible reward or touch pad -- before you add any changes on the field.
You need to be able to do this on any field, and you need to do it a million times. ALWAYS to the *same* reward (or touchpad).
Then you can add stuff -- and stuff is not *just* toys outside of the path, it's also, change in terrain (hills, water,grass/gravel), curves on the fenceline, and stimuli like joggers, on-lookers, cheering crowds...

and my send-away is not done -- what else could mess with them? who knows. -- guess that's why we trial.
I think it's like the object guard, it's never really done!

I think the IPO sendaway will be a little easier, but who knows


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## Mike Scheiber

Bob Scott said:


> I've had good luck with the sendout by putting the dog on a sit while he watches me place the toy at a certain spot. Go back to the dog and send the dog. I add distance by moving myself and the dog. Never the toy.
> Once he's really solid on this I will add the "platz" only every 10-15 send outs in order to avoid anticipation.
> When both are really solid I will send to dog, "Platz'" then go to the dog. Sometimes a mark then reward with a toy I have with me, or mark and let the dog go to the toy and get it. Sometimes I will "fuss" the dog away , mark and reward the fussing.
> Never, never fall into repeating anything that will make the dog start anticipating.


This is the perfect explanation and recipe I will gaurantee it will work if you do it as Bob describes.
I will add be certain you have a reliable platz before you try it. Go back shorten your distance when adding the platz


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## Guest

Lisa,

A dog, at a championship level, at the end of his f-ing career, still thinks (and is supposed to think), there is something _out there_ worth going to. It's never a matter of running in a straight line for it's own sake. Right??

Be it where the fence is....where the tall grass is...where the tree line is...where the short grass ends. We're counting on the dog percieving that his goal is actually "over there", and we're simply interrupting that with a recall. Right??

If that's just basically true, I can accept that. Eh. Without exception every incarnation I've heard of this stupid thing is contingent upon putting an objective goal out there at a distance and associating it with something you're likely to see in a trial...like a fence. Fine. Ugh.


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## melissa mims

So you are asking, is the goal of the exercise for the dog ever able to be changed from 'run over to that thing and touch it' to 'run away fast and true', and fade the touch pad, or toy, fence, whatever. 

For a competition send away - fast, straight, over obstacles, without anticipation of a recall - a target is, most likely, necessary. 

At least for the first 500,000 reps.

But think how hard it is to go in a straight line, with no target to keep yourself in line. The form is what makes this a tough exercise.


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## Lisa Geller

Steve,

I think so. 

But I am definately NO expert on this, but I have asked every expert I know and they all pretty much do some variety of this.

The thing I think that is really, really important is that the target doesn't change. Once you establish enough pattern through repetitions then you add things on the field without fear that they will generalize too badly. 

also be careful about putting your destinations at change of terrains, like woods and grasslines, concrete to grass changes etc. All of these things can be on a Mondio field. Make sure the dog runs to the end of the fence or a wall -- basically until he cannot run any more.

lg


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## Lisa Geller

*Re: Send Away -- Mondio Style*

Melissa,

wasn't it bernard Flinks that talked about the dog always having a "hopeful feeling"?
I think he was talking about the hidden ball dropping from the armpit.

same thing -- ball is just somewhere else

:-?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

**** em. I put the e-collar on the idiot and off he went in a straight line, around 70-80 yards.

I guess the old ways are still the best.


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## Lisa Geller

Jeff,

When I trialed my gsd at a club that used a bird dog field I noticed the long, maybe 10' shelf loaded with ecollars charging.
I wondered if those were used for sends or returns?

Can you tell me how you would consider using an ecollar for sendout? 

8-[


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## melissa mims

Lisa,

Yeah, I remember flinks talking about that. 

Retreiver people do the blind send out best. 

http://www.dobbsdogs.com/library/retrievers/rj37.html

Command not a cue. That sounds something like what Steve is talking about.


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## Bob Scott

Mike Scheiber said:


> This is the perfect explanation and recipe I will gaurantee it will work if you do it as Bob describes.
> I will add be certain you have a reliable platz before you try it. Go back shorten your distance when adding the platz


 
Absolutely the platz has to be reliable before you add it to the send out, otherwise your trying to teach two behaviours at the same time. Random platz all over the place! 
I've platzed my dog at a dead run, 6 inches behind a cat. He hit the deck and looked at me for a reward. 
An interesting note about the sendout at the 08 WUSV World. The judge moved the send out over a number of yards AFTER everyone had practiced . 
It was eye opening to see how many dogs went to the practice spot instead of where the handler pointed.


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## Guest

Frankly, this is abuse.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

YES BOB YES ! ! ! ! That is a Mondio send out.

The Sch send out is pretty easy, as there is nothing on the field, and it is pretty much down the center.

The problem with Mondio is they can get a bit nutty. They say diagonal is off limits, but how many dogs would do it in a Sch trial, let alone a Mondio trial. LOL

A recent trial the judge saw the rediculous amount of cueing people were doing with their dogs and made the prep line 90 degrees from the departure line. How ****ing sneaky is that ??? I love this shit ! ! ! ! 

Lisa, teach the dog to go to the marker, and then send him to the marker while stimming him, release when he gets there and repeat. Buko runs much faster back to me than away from me. I want him to run like his tail is on fire both ways. This also keeps him from the rediculous curve to the left that he does.

We will see how it works out. God knows I have no idea what shithead is gonna do. LOL


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## Anne Vaini

"I've had better luck with him walking BACKWARDS away from me, for god's sake....which gives me another idea, but that'd be a long row to hoe."

That (straight line backing) is the other thing I'm training now. And yes - it's easier. Do the rules state the dog has to face away from the handler? :lol:


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## Lisa Geller

Jeff,

this is too hard to respond to in webforum.
I think your confusing motivators with the actual routine.

remember when I was asking you about tracking... your advice "track more" 

returning early, either he does not undertand the reward is in the destination or he is offering behaviors (actually probably both)

melissa,

I have heard that the bird dog people are the experts -- I'm not sure I agree, I think they have just done more of it. Again, it's the same stuff, different motivators. thx for the link though (too bad you didn't send that to me before Asti (eh?))


lg




Jeff Oehlsen said:


> YES BOB YES ! ! ! ! That is a Mondio send out.
> 
> The Sch send out is pretty easy, as there is nothing on the field, and it is pretty much down the center.
> 
> The problem with Mondio is they can get a bit nutty. They say diagonal is off limits, but how many dogs would do it in a Sch trial, let alone a Mondio trial. LOL
> 
> A recent trial the judge saw the rediculous amount of cueing people were doing with their dogs and made the prep line 90 degrees from the departure line. How ****ing sneaky is that ??? I love this shit ! ! ! !
> 
> Lisa, teach the dog to go to the marker, and then send him to the marker while stimming him, release when he gets there and repeat. Buko runs much faster back to me than away from me. I want him to run like his tail is on fire both ways. This also keeps him from the rediculous curve to the left that he does.
> 
> We will see how it works out. God knows I have no idea what shithead is gonna do. LOL


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## Bob Scott

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> YES BOB YES ! ! ! ! That is a Mondio send out.
> 
> The Sch send out is pretty easy, as there is nothing on the field, and it is pretty much down the center.
> 
> The problem with Mondio is they can get a bit nutty. They say diagonal is off limits, but how many dogs would do it in a Sch trial, let alone a Mondio trial. LOL
> 
> A recent trial the judge saw the rediculous amount of cueing people were doing with their dogs and made the prep line 90 degrees from the departure line. How ****ing sneaky is that ??? I love this shit ! ! ! !
> 
> Lisa, teach the dog to go to the marker, and then send him to the marker while stimming him, release when he gets there and repeat. Buko runs much faster back to me than away from me. I want him to run like his tail is on fire both ways. This also keeps him from the rediculous curve to the left that he does.
> 
> We will see how it works out. God knows I have no idea what shithead is gonna do. LOL


I can easily call him off of a bite. The only time that happens in our training is if he breaks for the helper without permission. Escape bite and back transport being the exceptions of course. 
We do a hands off courage test and if the dog breaks, it gets nothing.

The bird dog sendouts are something to watch. 2-3 hundred yards and mighty dern straight. 
Yes, the Schutzhund send outs are super easy. I was doing them to all four sides of the field behind my old house by the time Thunder was 6-7 months old. It was another 6-7 months before I ever put it together with the platz.
Give them a good reason to run out besides telling them they have to. Then they will go out as fast as they comes back......that is if they have a good reason to come back. :lol: :wink:


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## Jeff Oehlsen

OK, I did buttloads of send aways with Buko, and then went to a trial and when he crossed the line I blew the whistle and he turned and wandered over to check out one of those hula hoop cubes. THis was his first trial with Ann P as the judge.

If I do like I have with Sch and place the food on a marker, or put a tug out, and go from short distances to long distances he looks like a star.

If I put the food out and go from 40 meters and he did not see me out the food out, who knows what is gonna happen. Sometimes he does it, and sometimes he does not.

Considering he was doing 200 meter send aways before the trial, then only 20 meters after the trial, obviously something broke. With the amount of work done, I thought he had a good understanding of what I wanted. Obviously not. This is where I got broke, as I could not go back to the beginning and fix it. I tried, but he does not get it.

I went back to short sends, and set up 4 markers with food about 30 meters out, as I did not want to set 20 meters in his head. I got him to go to the first marker, and then he would not go any other way, kept looking back. I had the e collar on him as once he was there, he scented one of the others, as the wind was blowing and I knew he would try and go there, and not back to me. Even after he scented that one, and DID come back to me, he would not go out to the marker with food, just would dash off sideways and eventually I had to use the e-collar to keep him from self rewarding. I was marking with a no when he took off the wrong way.

He has done this drill enough in the past that this much confusion ****les my brain up. At the end, after thirty tries or so, I put him away, and went and picked up the food and the markers.

So THIS time, I have been sending him to a fence with a tug hanging in it, and another on the ground. I send him to the fence, and it is ugly, as he is looking and not running. He is not stupid, so I have to keep the e-collar on him, as if he is wrong, he will run along the fence to self reward. He goes straight, and then gets wonky and veers off, usually at twenty meters. It is retarded to watch, as ten meters in front of him hanging in plain sight is the tug, with another on the ground in plain sight. He is no marked when he starts veering.

So I do two of these correctly, and then he goes back to the truck while I move them down the fence. He then goes twenty meters straight, and veers off and gets no marked and called back.

The last few times have not been so ugly, but I have no faith that he actually knows what the **** we are doing.

I will keep doing it like this for a while, but WTF. Never seen a dog not get it, then appear to get it, and then be clueless like this. Funny thing, he just keeps going. Not a lack of willingness on his part. Cannot figure out what I am doing wrong. He really doesn't get it anymore. 

Maybe I should just kick him in the head. LOL


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## Bob Scott

I've started working on Thunder's UD now and I'm using the directed retrieve (gloves) to the advantage of teaching that where my hand points is the place to be.
When the three gloves are laid out I turn and face each one a couple of times before I randomly send him to one. He's learned to put a line on wherever I point and I'm slowly extending my distance from the gloves and thiere distance apart. 
In training the Schutzhund sendout we come to a halt (sit) before we send the dog. That keeps them from forging to much and there also in correct position to "read" the hand signal. 
I'm really seeing the similarities between the AKC glove retrieve and the Schutzhund sendout. 
If the dog goes so far and then stops, it was moved back to fast. A handful of great sendouts doesn't make it solid. Don't be afraid to go back to basics as a reminder. 
I always like to use the analogy of home run hitters in baseball. The good ones still take batting practice.;-)


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## Emilio Rodriguez

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I have thought that a device that threw the ball up in the air off remote control would be very nice, but the few that I have seen put the kibosh on that idea, as I would need at least 4.


Why not use the retrieve R trainer like the duck hunting people.

I don't really understand the purpose of a send away if it's not for hunting purposes. How is it used in say law enforcement if ever? Sorry not to be able to offer anything constructive. But teaching it as an extension of the place command and the escape training sounded right to me.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

It's purpose is to take away points from dogs like Buko. LOL

Bob, if the UDT has 60 meter send outs to the gloves I will be impressed. I do not remember them being that far though. :lol: 

I did a few today, and it looked better. I am just going to do a couple of thousand and then if he still doesn't get it, the kick in the head is coming.


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## Bob Scott

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> It's purpose is to take away points from dogs like Buko. LOL
> 
> Bob, if the UDT has 60 meter send outs to the gloves I will be impressed. I do not remember them being that far though. :lol:
> 
> I did a few today, and it looked better. I am just going to do a couple of thousand and then if he still doesn't get it, the kick in the head is coming.


 
As it is they are only about 20 ft but they just may 60 meters before I finish training it! :grin:
Take your time! Sloooooly extend distance and put the whistle in your pocket for a while! That's a seperate ******* exercise! :evil: ](*,)


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## Raluca Alb

How about teaching the send out by throwing a ball from behind the dog? One of the guys in my mondio club used to do that. His dog had a solid S/A, never seen him miss this exercise.

What potential problems this technique might have?

I have to re-teach my S/A, because I thought my dog ith a ball machine (dropper) and now I don`t have it anymore, so I`m looking for the next best way.


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