# NIMS Job Titles and credentials



## Nancy Jocoy

Hmmmmmmm ..................................

http://www.fema.gov/pdf/emergency/nims/sar_jobtitle_111806.pdf

Any one know about this? I think this went out in November as a draft - anything more current. It specifies the training and certifications for SAR personell. (Last bullet) . Note that there are no trailing certs? 


Renee since I see you are here , I think NNDDA is on SWGDOG (but not IPWDA) but IPWDA, not NNDDA listed as credentialing agency?


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## David Frost

This didn't come from SWG dog though did it?

DFrost


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## Nancy Jocoy

No, this is directly on the FEMA page .......... 

Is FEMA talking with SWGDOG?

I guess I asked because I think NNDDA is part of the SWGDOG working group, but I know IPWDA is relatively new compared to USPCA and NAPWDA, but NNDDA has been around a while ..... And I did forget to add that I think FEMA does accept USPCA Cadaver Cert as well. ........... and then, there's NASAR - -- where things are so bad that three of the dog people who were on the board of directors recently resigned.


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## David Frost

I "think" FEMA has a representative on the SWG dog, I can check to see I guess. They, SWG dog, have not put up any rescue definitions or anything. So I don't know what their involvement is. Which doesn't surprise me. The Federal Gov. can't agree on anything anyway, when it comes to dogs or dog training. I know a friend on SWG dog, but I don't know if she represents FEMA or USAR.

DFrost


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## Renee Utley

I am in contact with the committee overseeing this. Geez. I think they looked at the name of our org. and did not look at the standards,assuming that it was for narc dogs only. Your govt. at work.........,


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## Nancy Jocoy

I am very confused about the comment period
It went out in November for 45 day comment but is now posted and appears to be final

We should all rest assured since a Wilderness Air Scent dog handler needs to be certified in NASAR Swiftwater OR IPWDA Water Cadaver. I guess if someone gets lost in the woods they will simply drown themselves in desparation realizing the feds are involved.

Don't worry about trailing dogs (guess they don't get deployed.......ahem!!!) as there are no Job Titles for this.

Guess I will also have to get a Helmet, throw rope, and change to a Type III-V PFD to be on a jon boat in a small lake too..............

The whole manager thing is strange too........

Please let us know what you find out about how ironclad these are.

For cadaver, NASAR, NNDDA, and IPWDA are the only agencies certifying civilians and NAPWDA and USPCA are still out..........................thank GOD that it did not ALL go to NASAR!!!! Wish you luck in finding out about NNDDA.


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## David Frost

Aren't the 3 people that resigned from NASR forming another organization? At least that is the rumor on the street. I've been fighting standardization since, it seems, the beginning of time. When you look at the 3 largest Federal canine programs, and they do NOT get along, what does everyone expect.
Good gravy.

DFrost


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## Renee Utley

I agree David. 
Unfortunately I have failed several dogs that have NASAR certifications. The last time I read them,the amounts are completely unrealistic. Have they changed them recently?

I spoke with a FEMA rep today who gave me contact information with regard to the inclusion of NNDDA. Will keep you posted. I would rather bite a tiger in the butt than deal with Feds.................


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## Jeff Oehlsen

SWG= Search While Gagging???


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## Renee Utley

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> SWG= Search While Gagging???


THAT is funny and I am ashamed that I did not think of it)


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## David Frost

Jeff, have you looked at the website (SWG Dog)? I don't disagree with what they are at least trying to do. They do have some good people on those committees. I'm probably as skeptical as the next person, but I do believe, or at least hope, their heart is in the right place. 

DFrost


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## David Frost

The TSA, in my opinion, does have the most difficult EDD certification. it's also one of the oldest. I'll certainly give them credit for that. It will be interesting though, to see what comes of NASAR, how FEMA is going to play a role in this and what states will do with their own programs. A friend in the West part of the state is a FEMA certification official. I've been trying to get in touch with her and see what she thinks of all of this.

DFrost


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## Jeff Oehlsen

No idea of what they are. Looked at the initials, and that is what I could come up with. Get it??? come up with??? Seriously, had no idea, just found it funny. I am at work and really bored.


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## Nancy Jocoy

NASAR has been a real disappointment, I am just glad they did not have enough influence to be the single source certification entity for dog handlers. 

Our experience with a team dog and a NASAR trailing certification test last year was having a judge who had only certified a dog in cadaver state "trailing / tracking its all the same" and would penalize the dog for not being in the footsteps. 

Not arguing whether or not the team should have passed the exam, but I do know that the idea of a footstep track vs. a scent trail was not necessarly understood by the evaluator.


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## Konnie Hein

David Frost said:


> Aren't the 3 people that resigned from NASR forming another organization? At least that is the rumor on the street.
> DFrost


Yep. Its called the "National Search Dog Alliance." Just rec'd an email about it today through the SAR-DOGS and disasterk9 email lists. I'd re-post the email here, but its about a mile long.

All I have to say about any of this is, "I just wanna train my dog!"

Kudos to those of you getting involved and seeking more info on the NIMS credentialing. I'm just sticking my head in the sand.


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## Renee Utley

I hear ya about just wanting to train your dog. Well, the problem I found with NASAR was unrealistic amounts as in grams for cert and the fact that folks could bring their own aids. I would hate to be on a witness stand and explain exactly WHAT I certified the dog on. Can not possibly do that unless the aid was readily identifiable as human remains. At one time,I understand that psuedo could even be used. Standards might have changed as I have not looked in some time. The problem I also see is that everyone is trying to build a better mousetrap and sometimes,the engineers of the project cannot recognize a mouse from a rat from a ...............


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## Nancy Jocoy

The people in this organization have a pretty good amount of respect to the best of my knowledge. I know some of these folks have been very vocal about the issues with NASAR in recent years.

......................"This group consists of the first two
NASAR Canine Section chairs, Dee Wild and Cheryl Kennedy and four
current or former Canine Section coordinators, Terry Crooks, Mary Jane
Boyd, Lisa Higgins and Sherry Scruggs. Cheryl and Marcia Koenig (former
NASAR search dog committee chair) have consented to be on our Advisory
Board."..................................

..............I am interested but agree with Konnie..............

The NIMS credentialing, though ........ my main interest/concern is how it will impact our abiitily to deploy. And the "availability" of these required certification tests at a reasonable cost AND with evaluators who know what they are doing. We have revised our standards to fit in NIMS "buckets" but the buckets were not that hard to fit...........


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## Renee Utley

I have been put in touch with an individual on the credentialing committee. I am going to speak with him tomorrow and perhaps I can get some answers because what he sent me to read did not tell me much.

I know almost all of those folks with referrence to your post. I was referring to this NIMS stuff.


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## David Frost

Konnie, I agree, let's just train. The problem with that, and I know you've seen it, there are so many people out there that just don't have a clue, yet present themselves as SAR specialists. While i certainly want to train, I also want to have some confidence those working along side of me have some measure of competance. I know the program you've gone through and the standards that have to be met. Unfortunately, that is not always the case. Which means someone gets stuck with all the BS of trying to figure out what's going on.

DFrost


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## Konnie Hein

David Frost said:


> Konnie, I agree, let's just train. The problem with that, and I know you've seen it, there are so many people out there that just don't have a clue, yet present themselves as SAR specialists. While i certainly want to train, I also want to have some confidence those working along side of me have some measure of competance. I know the program you've gone through and the standards that have to be met. Unfortunately, that is not always the case. Which means someone gets stuck with all the BS of trying to figure out what's going on.
> 
> DFrost


You're absolutely right! I'm a huge fan of competent certification standards and required training for that very reason. I work with a small non-profit group that is dedicated to providing training opportunities to SAR (mainly USAR) handlers. You wouldn't believe (or maybe you would) what passes as a "certified" dog for some local response teams out there. Ridiculous and scary.

As long as I'm not stuck with all the BS.... 

Seriously though, streamlining this stuff is a huge undertaking. Anybody willing and able to take that on and deal with the political BS involved gets a big gold star from me! Its almost an impossible task. Almost.


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## Nancy Jocoy

It is also very scary what passes as a competent evaluator. (e.g., NASAR where people where grandfathered in with the ability to assess people in specialties in which they never trained a dog) 

We are working very hard to ensure solidly operational teams, and we all need to keep our focus on quality training, but we need to keep looking over our shoulders and dotting i's and crossing t's.


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## Renee Utley

I just got off of the phone with an individual in D.C. Ok, they are still reviewing all of this SAR stuff. It is not set in stone. Yet another individual is supposed to get hold of me with regard to including NNDDA in this mess. No one so far,has been able to tell me how or why the other orgs were included other than there is some "committee" somewhere overseeing this. Whatever. I informed him that unless something has changed USPCA and NAPWDA do not certify civilians and the biggest group of individuals in this country handling HRDdogs ARE civilians. The new org allows dogs to be "certified" on Psuedo. I have a problem with that. Which brings up the point that a lot of this is too subjective. Who is making the decisions and what are the decisions based on that we will ALL eventually have to live with????? Anyhoo, the way this will ultimately work is the governor of each state will have to enter into a mutual aid agreement with the Feds. When /if that occurs,all of this BS WILL go into effect and if you do not meet their criteria,you will not deploy on a Fed gig. This stuff is scary because WHO is making the decisions and what are their qualifications? Will be keeping everyone posted.....


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## Nancy Jocoy

Thanks Renee .......look forward to hearing some updates.

That is good to know because of the way it is posted on the FEMA website. It looks like the target at my state OEM is just to have everyone trained on the NIMS documents this year; it does not mention the job title documents.

My biggest concern is that I think very few on my team would deploy on an emergency of national scale.

Perhaps we can work towards floodwater training as our most likely disaster is a hurricane, but we really need a lot more experience and training to EVEN begin to consider that. Our main intent is local SAR as many of could not even think of deploying for lenghty periods due to our jobs.

The area that most concerns me is across state lines for small scale stuff (e.g., missing kid, grandma, hunter, a drowning, or possible shallow grave,etc.
That part is kind of fuzzy ............ we know we all need at a minimum, the 100, 200, & 700 courses.

We cooperate with teams in NC through our own agreements and am just not sure how NIMs will impact the state line thing. NC has a SAR council; SC does not.


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## Renee Utley

Nancy Jocoy said:


> The area that most concerns me is across state lines for small scale stuff (e.g., missing kid, grandma, hunter, a drowning, or possible shallow grave,etc.
> That part is kind of fuzzy ............ we know we all need at a minimum, the 100, 200, & 700 courses.


My understanding is that this NIMS stuff is only applicable on a national "disaster" deployment. No bearing on local stuff and no bearing at all if the governor of the state involved does not sign off on the mutal aid package which kicks this in. It is the state's options as to whether or not they engage in this. Of course,if one wants FEMA in,one is probably going to have to buy off on this stuff. groan What concerns me is that if we all do not question this now, I see them marching on to controlling other aspects of k9s........


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## David Frost

<<<The new org allows dogs to be "certified" on Psuedo. I have a problem with that.>>>

Like you, I have a serious problem with that. As many know, I won't allow training with the stuff, let alone certify with it. IF that's the case, it would be a lot easier for us, as far as HR training to follow the Brit's lead and just train on pig parts. 

DFrost


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## Renee Utley

David Frost;30066IF that's the case said:


> Yep. I can think of no reason whatsoever for an "organization" to advocate certifying a dog on any kind of psuedo. Well, again, if some of us do not question the criteria of "choosing" standards and the expertise/agenda of who is doing the choosing with regard to what orgs. are to be blessed/ included in this,I have a bad feeling as to where this is ultimately going.........


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## Konnie Hein

Renee Utley said:


> Yep. I can think of no reason whatsoever for an "organization" to advocate certifying a dog on any kind of psuedo. Well, again, if some of us do not question the criteria of "choosing" standards and the expertise/agenda of who is doing the choosing with regard to what orgs. are to be blessed/ included in this,I have a bad feeling as to where this is ultimately going.........


Good point!


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