# How are your dogs with kids?



## Ashley Campbell

So as not to derail another thread, how are your dogs with kids?
Do you think it matters what age you introduce dogs around children as to how they will behave, or is it just a "a good dog is a good dog" scenario?

I got my female GSD when she was around 8 months old. I already had 3 children, who were 5, 2, and 4-5 months old at the time. She had never been around kids before but she's always been very tolerant with them.

When we moved from NY out to CO we had to stay in a motel for 4 days until my house was ready to be moved into. She slept on the floor with the baby.









I don't remember doing anything "special" to get her used to the kids at all. We just brought her home and had the kids leave her alone until she settled in, and everything was cool.


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## Faisal Khan

Depends how you define a good dog. Certain "good" dogs I know are waay to high driven and it is best to supervise interactions with kids 100% to be safe. For example, a kid can make a sudden movement with a toy and the prey response from such a dog can easily send the kid tumbling, a kid can make a sudden dash and a dog could grab him and shake him down, both scenarios can seriously injure the kid etc. I would never let sleep next to each other as in pic shown (too much at risk with this type of dog), they play together fine but under very close supervision.

Some people define good as being laid back with very low drives and high thresholds, these would require less stringent supervision in my mind.


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## Guest

They think they are lunch


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## Ashley Campbell

Ok what I mean by a good dog is a good dog, not so much where "accidents" happen, we've had a few of those where she has plowed into my oldest when he gets to playing rough with her. She's knocked him down a few times after a tennis ball, but honestly, he was teasing her and had it coming.
She'll play rough with him, he's 7, but his little sister (in the picture) is 2 now and she won't get rowdy with her, or her 4 year old brother. Doesn't matter what they have she's never hurt them intentionally or accidentally.

I was thinking more in terms of tolerance. My 2 year old has been caught pulling her ears and tail before, and she's never snapped or shown aggression toward her, though we've always stopped the baby from pulling on her body parts. She's never growled or offered to be nasty no matter what kind of stuff the kids have done (including coloring in all her tan points with green sidewalk chalk). She's just very tolerant of their BS. I hope that makes sense.


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## Brian McQuain

When I was a kid, my brothers and I used to make a game out of trying to climb up the hay bales and onto the barn roof before one of the bc's or aussies got us...we hardly ever won. I have scars from head to toe from those aussies and bc's...I knew what and what not to do around them, and it was my own fault everytime I got tagged. I only have one bc that I will allow around kids supervised. All the other bc's, gsds, ect will snack on the kiddies. All the apbts I had, I would trust any childs (or any animals) life with. Best child friendly dogs I've ever worked with. One of my GSD's now was introduced to children from day one...and that lasted up until he was about 7 months old, when he started really gettin after them. I watched him proudly trot across the house with my 3yo nephew dragging underneath him (shirt in mouth) at about that age too. He loves kids...


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## Adam Rawlings

1. I don't trust (he's never done anything)
2. Likes kids, but is to much for little ones ( will knock them over and lick them to death)
3. Loves kids and is a big sweet heart with them.


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## Harry Keely

My 10 year old male is pretty much a dust collecter now, 4 year old female is pretty cool as long as he doesn't have anything in the shape of a ball or pipe, my young boy is a asshole and never steps foot in the house and wont until all the foundation work has been done and we start to implement OB in him - every little thing sets him off and throws him into a whirl wind - but will eventually be introduced back into the house as he matures and we start more in depth corrections in him.


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## Faisal Khan

Ashley Campbell said:


> Ok what I mean by a good dog is a good dog,


Definitions are very important. In our training group the following definitions are used,

1. "Good Dog". Dog will perform well at national and world level SchH competitions.
2. "So So Dog". Will easily title to SchH3 level and perform very well at club level maybe regional levels.
3. "Dud/Shitter". Can not achieve SchH3 level.

All titling and training is HOT. Based on the above even if #1 and 2 have super solid temperaments, it will be foolish to let them interact with toddlers/kids unsupervised.

The definition of a kid = less than or equal to 11 years old.


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## Adam Swilling

I trust my GSD around my kids; he was raised around them his whole life. He's OK around other kids as long as I'm there. Great with mine though. We do scenarios with him and my 8 year old son. The kid will send the dog on the "stanger with candy". It's great. My male mal, no way. I don't trust him around them at all, for any reason. He's too sharp. My female has the "if they don't bother me, I won't bother them" approach. She is never around them unsupervised. Got both of them as adults. My 3 Dutchie pups are wonderful around them so far. Pups are 4 months and will crawl in the boys' laps for some lovin'. Get the pattern? The dogs that have been raised around them are great with my kids. The ones that weren't I can't trust unsupervised. My Dutchies may change as they get older, but the GSD is rock solid around them.


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## Ashley Campbell

Faisal Khan said:


> Definitions are very important. In our training group the following definitions are used,
> 
> 1. "Good Dog". Dog will perform well at national and world level SchH competitions.
> 2. "So So Dog". Will easily title to SchH3 level and perform very well at club level maybe regional levels.
> 3. "Dud/Shitter". Can not achieve SchH3 level.
> 
> All titling and training is HOT. Based on the above even if #1 and 2 have super solid temperaments, it will be foolish to let them interact with toddlers/kids unsupervised.
> 
> The definition of a kid = less than or equal to 11 years old.


And I'm talking about temperament inside the house, not whether or not the animal works. 

Not to mention, no toddler or small child should be around a predatory animal unsupervised, that's how kids get bitten, regardless of breed or how "HOT" they are or aren't.


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## susan tuck

Faisal Khan said:


> Definitions are very important. In our training group the following definitions are used,
> 
> 1. "Good Dog". Dog will perform well at national and world level SchH competitions.
> 2. "So So Dog". Will easily title to SchH3 level and perform very well at club level maybe regional levels.
> 3. "Dud/Shitter". Can not achieve SchH3 level.
> 
> All titling and training is HOT. Based on the above even if #1 and 2 have super solid temperaments, it will be foolish to let them interact with toddlers/kids unsupervised.
> 
> The definition of a kid = less than or equal to 11 years old.


Agreed!


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## Ashley Campbell

Adam Swilling said:


> I trust my GSD around my kids; he was raised around them his whole life. He's OK around other kids as long as I'm there. Great with mine though. We do scenarios with him and my 8 year old son. The kid will send the dog on the "stanger with candy". It's great. My male mal, no way. I don't trust him around them at all, for any reason. He's too sharp. My female has the "if they don't bother me, I won't bother them" approach. She is never around them unsupervised. Got both of them as adults. My 3 Dutchie pups are wonderful around them so far. Pups are 4 months and will crawl in the boys' laps for some lovin'. Get the pattern? The dogs that have been raised around them are great with my kids. The ones that weren't I can't trust unsupervised. My Dutchies may change as they get older, but the GSD is rock solid around them.


This is what I was wondering. Since my GSD was an older pup when I got her I was curious if it made a difference in how they adapt to small, loud, obnoxious children. She did well. The rescue pitbull I had did wonderful with them too and he was 6 years old when we got him and had lived his life on a chain in a junkyard that belonged to my mom's ex-boyfriend (yeah a true junkyard pit, that was extremely friendly). But I think I've been pretty lucky, especially with the pit.


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## Faisal Khan

Temperament does not change whether inside the house or out on the training field, it's just how the dog is wired. Forgot to define Hot, it has nothing to do with temperature and = Handler Owned and Trained (as opposed to buying a trained/titled dog).


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## Ashley Campbell

Ahh ok, I'm a horse person...a "HOT" horse is an extremely energetic, somethings nutcase animal. Nothing to do with temperature either. It just means "keyed up".


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## Stacy Fleming-Walker

My 13 year old Mal used to be great, but has a lower tolerance as she is losing her sight and hearing....I keep most kids away from her now. She used to be my demo dog on child/dog safety seminars now.

My 8 year old Lab is trained as a service dog for my son, and any kid can do anything to him and he takes it. I trust him about 98%

My young ACD probably won't ever be what most people consider "good" with kids. He is VERY high drive and never stops moving. Most kids can't handle it.

The GSD pup is obviously up in the air. We will expose her to children, but it isn't all that important to me that she love them. I want her to be safe, but I also won't go out of my way to make her see kids as her best friends.


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## Amy Swaby

Lets see 6 rottweilers 3 I'd trust around kids, the others are way too keyed up around kids and large so, yeah no. The border collie hates dogs loves kids. The 3 potcakes are fine with kids.


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## Bob Scott

Both my GSDs were introduced as pups to the grandkids in the same way but different temperments/personalities dictate their exposure with the kids.
Thunder has always been calm with them as long as they didn't have something to throw. He's had to learn to be easy and not take any toys/sticks right out of their hands but it was just one or two "easy" commands and he got it.
I expected that from him. He would bring his kong on a rope to one of the kids when she was still in diapers. Supervised of course. All he'd do was stand there wagging his tail while she pulled on the rope with a "PULL Nunner"
Trooper on the other hand :roll: LOOOOVES the kids. Trouble is, he has no spacial awareness and it's like watching Bowling for Babies if he's left in the yard when they are there. He's also a bit sharper and more reactive then Thunder so, even though he loves the kids, we keep a close eye on things all the time.
My youngest grandchilld, Scott, is 4. When we go out in the yard to play he puts Trooper up with a "kennel" command then gives him a treat. 
Of course Trooper then screams bloody murder when Scotty tosses something for Thunder to fetch.


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## Adam Rawlings

Faisal Khan said:


> Temperament does not change whether inside the house or out on the training field, it's just how the dog is wired..


How do you figure? If you can't train a dog to chill out in the house there's a problem.


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## Lynda Myers

I would trust all three of my A. Bulldogs with kids...Rook probably more so then the girls. Simply because the girls are so damn hyper. I also believe pitbulls to be by far one of the best kid dogs out there.


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## Faisal Khan

Adam Rawlings said:


> How do you figure? If you can't train a dog to chill out in the house there's a problem.


You are talking 2 different things, training and temperament. Temperament does not depend on the physical location of the dog. Do not understand your question/comment.


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## Jerry Lyda

Our dogs are great with the kids. It's the person I worry about that tries to mess with the kids. The other side of that dog shows itself.


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## Angela Skovira

Our Mal thankfully has been great with our daughter. Kaida (the dog) was 4 when we brought our daughter home as a newborn. From the get go Kaida was always calm around her and never expressed her typical prey drive around the baby. Even the baby's stuffed and plastic toys were left alone by the dog - without ever a word from us. Now our daughter is 4 1/2 and loves to hug Kaida and use her as a pillow. They are best buds! Although I have always been cautious when the two are together, Kaida has never once given me reason to worry. I would have to say that we really lucked out with this dog!


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## Kristina Senter

My dogs have never been around children and treat them just as they would a small adult. Erratic, loud, animated adults are prey objects, so.....not so much with the trusting my dogs around kids. I use kids as distractions and have very good control around them and children who approach calmly can interact with my dogs just as any adult can (which of course varies by dog and situation). In general however, I am very opposed to too much freedom between kids and working dogs.


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## Jennifer Marshall

Cuda has too much energy, he's the knock you down pin you to the ground so you can't stop me from licking you type. He is only calm when crated or asleep. All encounters with kids have been on lead, no aggression or eyeballing but just too boisterous and crazy.

The dog I got for my aunt, though, is awesome with kids. He is 1/2 great dane with sharpei and pit mixed in. Cool dog.

During a family BBQ, my 9 year old cousin Maddie wandered off with Rolo. It was a few minutes before anybody noticed. Usually we keep an eye on her because she has mild mental retardation and needs watching, that day we were preoccupied with food and conversation.

When we did notice a few minutes later we looked everywhere .. her and the dog were GONE. Vanished. The yard gate was wide open but the perimeter fence had all shut/locked gates. We were stumped.

Her mother got in the car to go look for her at the elementary school nearby ... She was about to turn the key when we heard giggling. It was coming from the trunk.

My cousin had locked herself and Rolo in the trunk of a '92 Subara Legacy. She only weighs about 50 pounds but Rolo is 90 pounds lean and built like a small great dane. He was curled up in a ball, calm as could be, wagging his tail. Not a scratch on Maddie. We know she was in there for about 10 minutes.

Needless to say she is watched more closely these days.


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## Don Turnipseed

My dogs are never around children unless someone brings one when looking at the dogs. When there is a small chiild, they gear down automatically and treat them as though they are fragile. They are all gentle with kids. For prospective buers with babies, I wind the pups up and have them put the baby down with the pups so they can see how they gear down immediately.


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## Colin Chin

Don Turnipseed said:


> My dogs are never around children unless someone brings one when looking at the dogs. When there is a small chiild, they gear down automatically and treat them as though they are fragile. They are all gentle with kids. For prospective buers with babies, I wind the pups up and have them put the baby down with the pups so they can see how they gear down immediately.


Hi Don,
Is it genetic thing that your dogs and pup gear down with children or baby ? Cheers.


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## Colin Chin

Kristina Senter said:


> In general however, I am very opposed to too much freedom between kids and working dogs.


Hi Kristina,
Would like you to explain a little but more of your statement above. Thanks.


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## Don Turnipseed

Colin Chin said:


> Hi Don,
> Is it genetic thing that your dogs and pup gear down with children or baby ? Cheers.


To some extent maybe Colin. Then again it may have a lot to do with how they are raised in family units. Here is a picture of an older pup with some newborns. They live this way 24/7 and just seem to know that the newborns are helpless. They are unsupervised and never hurt the newborns. They just seem to know and this may be where they learn to differentiate.


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## Colin Chin

Don,
Thanks for the pic. Is that a man made cave or something like that ? You raised all your dogs and pups in the natural environment ? Is that how genetic obedience come about ? Thanks.


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## Rox Brummer

Mine are all good with kids. My Mal is so gentle with them and never knocks them over, My Weim and GSP will never bite and tolerate allsorts of playing with the kids, but they can knock them over if they are playing rough with each other. My Anatolians are gentle, and tolerate my kids, but arent too keen on any they dont know.
The only one of my dogs to have bitten a child is the Dachshund.


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## andreas broqvist

One is good one is not.
The one that is good realy changes totaly. She plays with kids wery soft, she do not jump on them and yes she is a swethart. This is without any traning at al, I do not have kids. She met her first kid when she was 9 month ore so and she adapted directly.

The ohter one treats kids just like grown upps. She plays as ruff and its not a good mix.


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## Don Turnipseed

Colin Chin said:


> Don,
> Thanks for the pic. Is that a man made cave or something like that ? You raised all your dogs and pups in the natural environment ? Is that how genetic obedience come about ? Thanks.


Colin, it is just a dog house that the dogs have eaten the door out on. I have to go through and put new fronts on the houses every couple of years.

Not exactly sure of what you mean by genetic obedience. When you first put a number of dogs together it is a pack of dogs and they act accordingly. After there has been a couple of litters born in the pack, they start becoming a family unit and acting in a way that benefits all. Dogs like people are greatly influenced by the environment. Take human kids and raise them in relative isolation and they don't know how to act as adults. Dogs are the same way so I would say the social attitudes in dogs are man made more so than genetic.


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## Bob Scott

I think strong leadership, man or dog, brings out the genetic obedience. :wink:
I never had a dog I owned that wasn't "genetically" obedient. We just call that good truck dogs. :-D


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## rick smith

re: "string leadership" ....ROGER that !

dogs/kids is a big issue for me and i come up against it all the time
in the "responsible ownership" category
i absolutely believe ANY dog can be socialized enuff to be safe around kids. ANY dog.....they only fall short if the owner is either too LAZY or too ignorant about how to do it.
case in point :
dingo ( i refer to it a lot ) came to me for an eval after a stoopid owner w/ money and no sense gave up on his "exotic" cool "pet" :-((
the dog had sent two people to ER for sutures (one was owner's wife) and bitten several others ... would lunge/bark/bite anyone coming within 4-5 meters....and was supposedly a confirmed cat killer....anyway before being put down i looked at it cause i was curious......f/wd>>>.....he is my house dog and lives with six cats and is totally safe around our baby class ballet students
- he's a great dog and still loves to bite and has no real affection for people in the face licking, tail wagging sense. but he interacts with little kids all the time and knows what is prey and what isn't ......completely convinced me NO dog is beyond that kind of rehab and i get that kind of request all the time.....people just don't know the real meaning of patience or got no time and want it done yesterday or they toss it.....that is today's mentality :-(


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## rick smith

delete "string" and insert "strong".....


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I don't think "drive" is the problem with children and dogs, it is character.

This is not making fun of anyone or their breeding, but if the goal has been for twenty years to make a hard police dog, then you are probably going to get more dogs that will not deal with children.

I personally don't like anymore a dog that insists on eating things smaller than itself or children. I have dogs that I have told them that they cannot act like that, and they are good with that. Buko is good with children, Soda is really good with children, and Esko was a bit clunky with them last time, but he has had limited exposure. He was not bad, just banged into them trying to get petted.

The rest I do not know, I have never seen them around children. My two most hated things are dogs that absolutely cannot be trusted around children and or around dogs. They do not have to like dogs, but they cannot act in an aggressive manner towards children. I think that is a character issue. What threat is a child ? I have put dogs down for acting aggressive towards children, as I do not want that.

There are many philosophies on breeding, but not being able to trust a dog around children is never going to be something I tolerate. Children that act stupid around my dogs will get the bejeezus slapped out of them, mine, or anyone elses.


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## catherine hardigan

To Don...

I like how you raise your dogs. I think the "it takes a village" approach is a good one with social family-oriented animals of any species. Look at wolves: puppies are raised by the pack, and if you pay attention all the adults are very tolerant and indulgent with them.

I also agree with you, Jeff. As a mom with little kids my attitude toward dogs has changed somewhat. I can understand clumsiness etc. around kids, but agression? No way. I don't care how great a dog is if it is unpredictable around my kids it will not be kept.

But to each his own.


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## Jennifer Sider

I wouldn't have a dog in my house that couldn't tolerate children. I own two kids and yes they are squeaky, arm flailing freaks; but I have a dog to protect the household; it's beyond comprehension that the dog and kids can't be out together and not expect them to be at least parallel and able to leave each other alone. I do not expect them to love them (although they do) and in fact don't like dogs that smother children (literally and figuratively) but I think a dog should be able to restrain itself enough to not eat the obviously un-aggressive child. Just as puppies should have puppy-license; so should kids have kid-license; at least long enough so that the ATTENTIVE parent can remove the annoying child to prevent mishap.

I do understand Jeff's post; and agree; as much as there is a place for the SchHIII dog; or the hard-ass police dog; these dogs are often/most of the time shit-choices for families. As long as police forces need hard-ass bite the bad guy dogs and as long as people still want a dog that is only good for SchHIII sports and not a family companion; then breeders who breed that type of dog; are obviously fulfilling a need.

I will say I've met a variety of dogs with my trainer; that I will let with my kids and then others that I will not. She owns a Mali that is awesome with kids (he's not a driven dog; there's a lot of GD in his background), one that is so-so (she's definitely driven; she'd be more too intense play than actually aggressive. One Beauceron that is spooky; he's not good with kids -- actually views them as a threat (that reaction is so wrong -- I love him but he's a neurotic mess), a JRT that sounds awful; but just wants to play; an APBT who loves them, a Czech import GSD that ignores them completely -- and he's pretty driven and an ADD GSD that is her cadaver dog and he loves them; however his one focus is on whatever toy/game he can invent to keep his mind busy; so he's pretty oblivious to them. My dogs have been APBT, Central Asian Shepherd, Boerboel and Rat Terrier -- they were all excellent with the kids (but obviously grew up with them in the household). The Boerboel, Rat Terrier and APBT were/are good with visiting children; enfolding them into the family unit; the CAS was a bit trickier; but her temperament is very defense driven. The other 3 in my household were uber-confident dogs; and that's what I'm seeing across the board in my experience is the very confident dogs; with low defense are good with kids. Again; only about 10-15 different dogs and their interactions with my kids; but that's what I've seen.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I have bred dogs in the past that are hard ass dogs. They just happened to be good with children. There should be no correlation between a better working dog, and a dog that is good with children being a weaker dog.


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## Jim Nash

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> There should be no correlation between a better working dog, and a dog that is good with children being a weaker dog.


I agree . Of the 21 K9s in our unit the majority (mainly GSDs) are very social and good with kids . The same goes for the 12 or so K9s we train a year for other agencies . Most are good around kids a strangers . 

But we also have some that are not good around kids or others . Either way it doesn't matter as long as they all can do what's needed on the street . I also see no correlation between which one makes a better PSD , the social or unsocial K9 . We have no requirement either way that they be social or unsocial because it's a nonissue in relationship to their work .


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## Grant Cusworth

This is my mal right off the field from a Ring II program at a trial. The trial was held at an elementary school and the kids wanted a picture with a dog so as soon as we left the field I gave a friend the leash as I was Deputy judge for the RIII's and had to get out there... My kinda working dog!!

Grant


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## Kara Fitzpatrick

my lab is great with kids but will knock them over with kisses. 

my dobe is pretty good with kids too, here's a cute video: 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ybQzoao5dw


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## Derek Milliken

Depends on the dog. My old GSD wouldn't even pull on the leash with a small child, the younger they were, the softer he was with them. Got to the point where the neighbourhood 5 year olds were having tea parties with him. Despite the fact he was super dog aggressive and liked to take cheap shots at decoys.
My young mal is probably more social, but quick moves..... I think I'll keep him on a leash around kids.


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## Sara Waters

My dogs are all high drive sheep and cattle dogs and none of them have been bought up with children and all of them are very good with kids. When I visit friends with kids and my young nieces they are great. Fortunately they are also mainly dog savvy kids, but one of my ACDS was jumped on from behind by a toddler and although we were all caught by surprise she merely turned around, wagged her tail and licked the kid. One of my BCs and one of my ACDS seem to actively like to get involved in playing with children and seem to control their strength to suit the size of the child.

When my dogs get old and stiff and sore I generally protect them from very young children.


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## Holly Huryn

The dogs we have now are awesome with our boys. My little acd was 4 when my first was born - thought we'd have to put her down, she was a 1 person dog and a fear biter. She ADORES my boys and won't let anyone dare come near them. My male gsd was 2 and loves my boys - both of these dogs tolerate ANYTHING the boys dish out, having said that, they are very respectful of the dogs. We've aquired a mal and another gsd since then, same thing, no issue's at all, the kids love the dogs, the dogs love the kids.
However, we had also had 2 gsd's when my son was born - they were 7 and 9 at the time. I would never ever have trusted either of them for 1 second with a baby. Those dogs were my babies band they looked at my son like he was lunch. Both dogs passed away within 1 year of my son being born. While it was heartbreaking and very sad, it was a relief in some ways. ( it feels awful to say that, but my kids come before my dogs, easy).


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## Daniel Lybbert

saw little daisy back Grant off Carson that was funny as hell.


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## milder batmusen

my dogs get along fine with my own litle boy especially the female she loves him to pieces

she will protect and the male loves him to but he is more sharp so he is not as tolerent as the female .I woould though never let him be with other chilkdren than my own because he will not se them as part in the pack

She will show him parental care like he was one of her own pups

I do not believe that because you have a highly driven dog it means that hey cant get alon with children and be very tolerent of them.

I have seen both exstreme driven gsd and mals (most gsd) control their drive as if the children takes one their favorite toys like a ball they can control their drive so they do not overrumle small kids.


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## Brian Anderson

We never allow our dogs around children unsupervised PERIOD. This assures me there will not be any instances where a child gets hurt. If we had lower drive pet type dogs i would probably be different.


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## rick smith

re: "We never allow our dogs around children unsupervised PERIOD. This assures me there will not be any instances where a child gets hurt. If we had lower drive pet type dogs i would probably be different."
>>> so what are you saying ? do you allow them around children when supervised ?
if not what you're doing is isolating the dog to prevent a potential problem rather than train so it isn't a problem... sure that's safe, and a heckofa lot easier, but it begs the question of whether a dog in a household should be taught how to be safe with kids. 
- i say YES in all circumstances and if it can't or won't be done, the dog should be kept like the wild animal it is - in a cage or hired out to a junkyard. period.
- it makes No difference how much "drive" the dog has; it only depends on whether the owner teaches the dog or not and i've said before i feel strongly all dogs can be taught to handle kids safely.....most quickly...a few take time; none are beyond hope, and the higher the level of training the easier it usually is
- if your dog is a tool that you don't want to spend time making them safe with little humans; fine - the same applies keep em caged when they aren't at work
- and i'm sure you've all run across the macho types that almost think it's cool that their big bad dog thinks kids are lunch...it doesn't impress me
- i'm much more proud that i can have my HI drive dog lay his head on a visiting kid and then toss a tug and have him charge back growling, tug, out it and then drop his head back on the little tyke
- nothing wrong with rewarding a dog for being nice ... responsible supervision in action and the kids like it too and learn quickly why they shouldn't pester and bother a dog they don't know that doesn't belong to them


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## Chris Jones II

I'd think that trying to train a dog that is a lot faster than a person, much faster reflexes, much faster reaction times etc. to not be aggressive to a child might be putting the child in some danger. Here is the thing I am concerned about most. With a dog like a Malinios that look really fast and reactive in the videos I have seen, if you have the dog in the room with your kids even if the dog is on leash by your side, if the kid accidentally does something the dog doesn't like and the dog is one you are trying to train to be respectful of the kids there is no way it is humanly possible to stop the dog from nailing the kid if he intends to. From what I had read, dogs are just way too fast. 

I was looking at the classified and the most recent one is of some Malinois that are stable and social but handler aggressive. How can a dog that is stable and social be handler aggressive. Is that typical for the breed? Is it "stable and social *for a Malinois*"? 

I'm not trying to offend. Just to understand. Seems a like there is some circular stuff going on.

to Rick Smith: What kinds of dogs do you have and how are they bred? They sound like nice dogs.

The dog above with all the kids looks like he would be a great family dog which goes against what some others have posted about high level competition dogs being trustworthy with kids. I get it that it depends on the dog but it seems like there is just a lot of words of caution being posted about the Malinois.


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## Joby Becker

Chris Jones II said:


> I'd think that trying to train a dog that is a lot faster than a person, much faster reflexes, much faster reaction times etc. to not be aggressive to a child might be putting the child in some danger. Here is the thing I am concerned about most. With a dog like a Malinios that look really fast and reactive in the videos I have seen, if you have the dog in the room with your kids even if the dog is on leash by your side, if the kid accidentally does something the dog doesn't like and the dog is one you are trying to train to be respectful of the kids there is no way it is humanly possible to stop the dog from nailing the kid if he intends to. From what I had read, dogs are just way too fast.
> 
> I was looking at the classified and the most recent one is of some Malinois that are stable and social but handler aggressive. How can a dog that is stable and social be handler aggressive. Is that typical for the breed? Is it "stable and social *for a Malinois*"?
> 
> I'm not trying to offend. Just to understand. Seems a like there is some circular stuff going on.
> 
> to Rick Smith: What kinds of dogs do you have and how are they bred? They sound like nice dogs.
> 
> The dog above with all the kids looks like he would be a great family dog *which goes against what some others have posted about high level competition dogs being trustworthy with kids*. I get it that it depends on the dog but it seems like there is just a lot of words of caution being posted about the Malinois.


who said this??? 

You are looking for an answer to a question that is unanswerable..
You cannot look at the "breed" as a whole, it is made up of individuals dogs with infinite variables...same as any other breed.


some dogs are perfectly social animals, some are not
.
one dog might bite his owner for whatever reason, and be a fuzzy lamb for a different handler...happens all the time...

one thing I can say for sure is if you have to hold the leash to control the dog in the house to stop it from attacking, you are losing the battle.

you can train a dog to not be aggressive towards kids while under control, but if you HAVE to do that type of training, that is not a dog that should ever be out around kids in my opinion, you cannot expect kids to follow all the rules.

some dogs love kids, some dogs are great with family members, some are not...it is that simple...


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## Chris Jones II

Correct me if I'm wrong. Please. But breeds of dogs are created with certain traits. That is what makes them breeds. Some level of uniformity. Actually, no... a high level of uniformity, not only in appearance but in behavioral traits. Dogs within a breed should not be infinitely variable. There are things that make them a breed and according to a working dog standard, what makes these breeds breeds is predominantly behavior traits, more than appearance. Border Collies we have owned have all thrown decent eye and stalked livestock, some much much better then others but they all exhibited the traits on some obvious level, in such a way that I would not expect to see in, say, an English Bulldog to pick an arbitrary non-working breed. Following that line of thought there should be some behavioral uniformity across Belgian Malinois as a breed. If by infinite variability you mean that there are *anomalies* to the breed's behavioral expectations ie. dogs that are occasionally extreme in either direction, either extremely docile or extremely aggressive then that might be more valid a statement. Aren't they used as Police dogs because they tend to be easily aroused and have a propensity to be blindly driven like a fur covered rocket with teeth? Is it totally ridiculous to say that the breed as a whole carries a higher level of potential aggression than most?


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## rick smith

what percentage of ANY breed is actually "bred" to enhance what the breed became a "breed" for ?? unfortunately in most cases a VERY small number, but hopefully, as far as working dogs go, many of those reside on this list

thank the akc/jkc and all the other beauty contest organizers for all the canine genetic and behavior problems, plus a lot of idiot owners who get a nice pet and want to make a few more just like theirs to give to their friends or make a few bucks on the side....

anyone want a "white" golden retriever ?? ... lots over here in japan these days


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## Joby Becker

Chris Jones II said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong. Please. But breeds of dogs are created with certain traits. That is what makes them breeds. Some level of uniformity. Actually, no... a high level of uniformity, not only in appearance but in behavioral traits. Dogs within a breed should not be infinitely variable. There are things that make them a breed and according to a working dog standard, what makes these breeds breeds is predominantly behavior traits, more than appearance. Border Collies we have owned have all thrown decent eye and stalked livestock, some much much better then others but they all exhibited the traits on some obvious level, in such a way that I would not expect to see in, say, an English Bulldog to pick an arbitrary non-working breed. Following that line of thought there should be some behavioral uniformity across Belgian Malinois as a breed. If by infinite variability you mean that there are *anomalies* to the breed's behavioral expectations ie. dogs that are occasionally extreme in either direction, either extremely docile or extremely aggressive then that might be more valid a statement. Aren't they used as Police dogs because they tend to be easily aroused and have a propensity to be blindly driven like a fur covered rocket with teeth? *Is it totally ridiculous to say that the breed as a whole carries a higher level of potential aggression than most?*


You hit the nail on the head...the breed as a whole I would agree, carries a higher level of "potential" aggression towards people than most more popular medium to large breed dogs.

A potential that varies greatly within any breed, depending on genetics, socialization, training, environment....blah blah blah.

A dog can injure and bite also without showing any "aggression" at all, purely out of play or prey drive, which malinois typically as a breed have alot of...this and actual aggression possibilities is a major reason why I do not recommend a Mal for a first time working dog owner...

In the small percentage of any breed of working dogs suitable for police apprehension work, I would say that within this segment of breed populations the "potential" for "aggression" towards people is going to be inherently higher than the pool of other specimens of the same breeds, just as the dogs with flaws and issues will.

Breeds on a whole are actually pretty variable, your example of border collies is an excellent one, just as BC for the most part was bred to herd and show eye (working dogs), most malinois are bred to bite stuff in general, even if I am wrong in my assessment, just pretend it is true....this still does not determine which dogs are going to react in what ways to strangers, families, kids, other dogs, household settings etc. etc. It does nothing to define the character, thresholds, nerve sets, possession...etc etc.
That is what I meant...things that may cause a dog to show aggression..



> I was looking at the classified and the most recent one is of some Malinois that are stable and social but handler aggressive. How can a dog that is stable and social be handler aggressive. Is that typical for the breed? Is it "stable and social for a Malinois"?


A dog can show aggression to its handler and still be stable and sociable, in how I look at it...It means the handler must be knowledegable on how to handle and deal with the animal.

It most likely means that if you buy the dog and put a pinch collar on him, tell him to lay down, and jerk him around when he refuses, he will might try to bite you. Is that unstable? I don't see it that way.

Social is a relative term as well...most people view it as how the dog reacts in public, around groups or strangers. 

here is example using my dog, you tell me what you think.....

I have a mix Dutchie, that comes from KNPV lines. 

I would label her socially neutral to fairly social. She likes it when people do things for her, like pet her and stuff. She gets real "happy" when she sees people she knows. While I have the dog with me out in public on a leash she does not actively seek any attention from strangers, but will interact with strangers that I allow her to, if I feel it will go smoothly (the people are not scared of the dog, and are level headed) I will usually sit her and let her be petted and if I stand around talking for awhile or am visiting with people, the dog if allowed, may (if I and the people allow it) try to crawl in their lap, jump up and stand on them to be petted, she may even try to snag food or drink their coffee if allowed to do so. (she LOVES coffee, Got to thank my decoy for that one)...

I would also consider the dog a stable dog, very rarley barks at people unless she is in her crate in the vehicle, she is in the crate in the vehicle often and has only barked at people a couple times for whatever reason.

She does not show aggression towards people except under certain specific parameters in public.

Now enter *one* of the variables. Possession.....

The same dog, same park, same place whatever, same people around...doing obedience training, or walking or whatever...dog has a toy or a ball in her mouth this time around...

dog drops toy on the ground nearby, person attempts to pick up toy to play with the dog, the dog shows aggression and "guards" her toy.

another scenario...guy throws ball for dog, dog brings it back a few times, putting the ball in the guys hand...then dog does not put it in his hand, he tries to take it out of her mouth, dog growls or attempts to bite...

or dog lays on the ground with the ball to chew on it, she is done playing fetch....guy goes to attempt to get ball to throw it again, dog shows aggression, guarding the ball which most certainly will result in biting if attempt to take ball away is not thwarted.


*So I say the dog is a social and a stable dog, what say you?????*
If you are gonna compare my dog to a golden retriever, your answer may be different than mine..

Possessiveness as a trait, is fairly common in certain lines. I am not sure how common it is in the "breed" overall...

It can be a trigger for this dog to react very aggressively. Does this have any bearing on the dog being stable or social in your opinion?


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## Lee H Sternberg

Both of my Dutchies are fine with my son. My female is the most gentle dog I ever had with the family. Outside the family she HATES EVERYBODY. I don't know how she is with other kids because she HATES EVERYBODY. So because she HATES EVERYBODY, I haven't tried to see how she reacts to other kids since she was 2 months old. That was about the time that I figured out that she HATES EVERYBODY. Did I mention she HATES EVERYBODY?:twisted:

My male Is great with all kids. He never met a kid that he didn't consider a immediate friend. He is very gentle with smaller kids and will run up and sit in front of them and wait until the pet him.:grin:


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## Grant Cusworth

IMO if you have to "train" a dog to be good with kids, its never going to be 100% trustworthy. At least not in my eyes. I never taught my dog to be good in situations with children or strangers. He just is. It's my belief that a truly, TRULY strong dog is never aggressive unnecessarily. The mal in the photo earlier in the thread was never socialized as a puppy. He went from kennel to the field, trained, then kennel again. I bought him at 6 mos old and during my evaluation/decision he was loaded up into a convertible, driven to downtown San Diego and walked through busy streets, on a Starbucks patio for coffee with throngs of people around... he never flinched. I saw lots of dogs that would work their asses off on the field with tons of drive/power/commitment... and he was all that, but he was also the dog that was bomb proof in public. Nobody taught him to be that way, he just was. I have other mals at home that aren't even close to trustworthy and they were raised with every environmental/socialization opportunity from puppies... it's genetics. So I say again, if you have to train it, it's never going to be safe enough for my kids because training slips up from time to time, and in the case of children, the consequences are simply too high.

Grant


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## Don Turnipseed

These dogs are not bite trained but have been bred for dangerous game. The three pictured are all dominate males and two belong to folks that don't have kids...or didn't ui till the baby. All are also different crosses.

These kids are all strangers to the dog at the Y.









This male belongs to a teacher that has him in schools 3 days a week working with disadvantaged kids









This male is keeping hs eye on the 7 week old new addition.


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## Ashley Campbell

Jeez, this thread was resurrected from the grave! 

But I'll play too. My almost 6 month old puppy and my 3 week old baby. Yes the swing was on and smacking him in the head - he's good with kids, but I never said he was very bright.


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## Thomas Jones

my male is ok around kids no aggression what so ever but he scares parents because he's so hyper and jets everywhere he goes. 

my new female is 4 months old. All german working lines and she has a lot of aggression toward everybody(growling, barking, and biting) and her drives are phenomenal it will be no problem with bitework training with her. I don't believe I will ever let her get around children period. She's simply not a pet.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Crack her in the ****ing skull and tell her to knock it off. That usually works pretty good.


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## Adi Ibrahimbegovic

<object style="height: 390px; width: 640px"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/ssgGm6Fxovw?version=3"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/ssgGm6Fxovw?version=3" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="640" height="390"></object>


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## Joby Becker

> Adi Ibrahimbegovic;
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/v/ssgGm6Fxovw?version=3


you cannot imbed youtube here ...


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## Jeff Oehlsen

That video made me laugh. I wasn't sure what was going on at first, the kid fell down, then I figured it out.


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## mike finn

Faisal Khan said:


> Definitions are very important. In our training group the following definitions are used,
> 
> 1. "Good Dog". Dog will perform well at national and world level SchH competitions.
> 2. "So So Dog". Will easily title to SchH3 level and perform very well at club level maybe regional levels.
> 3. "Dud/Shitter". Can not achieve SchH3 level.
> 
> All titling and training is HOT. Based on the above even if #1 and 2 have super solid temperaments, it will be foolish to let them interact with toddlers/kids unsupervised.
> 
> The definition of a kid = less than or equal to 11 years old.


I think any dog that can not be trusted around kids would be shitter. What good is a dog you can not bring any place? It would be useless to me no matter how many titles it has. I agree you do have to watch all dogs around kids. Most kids who are bitte badly are under five years old, so I am extra carefull with kids that young.
I would not feed a dog that is aggressive towards kids much less breed one. I had the most beautifull dog I have ever seen put down the day I bought him because he was dangerouse around kids. I do not want that dog passing its genes on. I could have sold him or got my money back from the lady I got him from, but I would pass the trash and get some kid hurt.


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## rick smith

re: "I had the most beautifull dog I have ever seen put down the day I bought him because he was dangerouse around kids."
on the first day ?? altho i doubt this is a true statement, if it was, shoulda put YOU down IMNSHO
....my house dog is beautiful.....and it has nothing to do with how he looks


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## Joby Becker

mike finn said:


> I think any dog that can not be trusted around kids would be shitter. What good is a dog you can not bring any place? It would be useless to me no matter how many titles it has. I agree you do have to watch all dogs around kids. Most kids who are bitte badly are under five years old, so I am extra carefull with kids that young.
> I would not feed a dog that is aggressive towards kids much less breed one. I had the most beautifull dog I have ever seen put down the day I bought him because he was dangerouse around kids. I do not want that dog passing its genes on. I could have sold him or got my money back from the lady I got him from, but I would pass the trash and get some kid hurt.


nice...you got a dog and put him down the same day because he was dangerous around kids, without any type of bonding period. How did that scenario play out? You picked up a dog and let the kids around him? and he did what?

Did you bring kids along when you selected the dog to see if he was good around the kids? 

So the 10's of thousands of Police, Military, Sport and Security dogs that may not be able to be trusted to be left alone with children unsupervised, that may bite a kid under certain circumstances if allowed to, are all shitters and should be put down?

No one is breeding for kid aggressive dogs, but not every type of dog is meant to be brought into a house with children present. Not every dog is bred to be a family pet.

There are also many people that do not have kids...

There are dogs that people should not try to bring into the family home, to play with their kids but they do. There are stupid people everywhere.

I have owned plenty of dogs that would bite a kid under certain circumstances, I took those dogs everywhere I went. If you have dog under control and are not an idiot, and do not let kids pet the dog, you can take the dog lots of places...you just dont being them in the house with your kids and their friends, and you dont take them to the local soccer park and let them run offlead...

even an openly aggressive, one man type dog, can be trained in OB and control and be trusted to walk in public without grabbing someone...


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## maggie fraser

rick smith said:


> re: "I had the most beautifull dog I have ever seen put down the day I bought him because he was dangerouse around kids."
> on the first day ?? altho i doubt this is a true statement, if it was, shoulda put YOU down IMNSHO
> ....my house dog is beautiful.....and it has nothing to do with how he looks


That was a pretty sharp retort.

Maybe he was able to see the character in the dog that first day.

Just sayin


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## Joby Becker

maggie fraser said:


> That was a pretty sharp retort.
> 
> Maybe he was able to see the character in the dog that first day.
> 
> Just sayin


maybe he should not have bought the dog.
Maybe the dog would have been fine with someone who does not have kids, or was not interested in making it a family housedog.


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## maggie fraser

Joby Becker said:


> maybe he should not have bought the dog.
> Maybe the dog would have been fine with someone who does not have kids, or was not interested in making it a family housedog.


Lots of maybe's huh?

I think how a dog is with young kids is instinctual and down to character. If a person is instinctual by nature, they're often quicker on the uptake than a person who isn't. That is only the pro version of course.


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## catherine hardigan

Why would anybody wanting a good sport or personal protection dog tolerate one that is unpredictable/aggressive/generally unsocial with kids? 

Like it or not these dogs do fall into the definition of "pet," and owners should not delude themselves into believing otherwise. They are not police or military dogs. Police dogs are not pets, and being good with kids is not part of their job description; although many are good public relations dogs too. 

The bottom line is that the safety of children is way more important than your dog. So... why would you use your hard earned dollars to support breeders who produce dogs for private ownership that are unsafe with children?


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## rick smith

maggie wrote :
"That was a pretty sharp retort."
>>>you got that part right, except i probably should have emphasized only an IDIOT would buy, evaluate, diagnose and KILL a dog in ONE day.....if u need more reasons, start a thread and be prepared to defend your "maybe" comment.... emphasis on ONE - HIS words not mine, and note i didn't believe it actually happened that way and he hasn't clarified ... 

Maybe he was able to see the character in the dog that first day.
>>>you got that part WRONG.....see above ... only CM can do that - and only on TV


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## maggie fraser

rick smith said:


> maggie wrote :
> "That was a pretty sharp retort."
> >>>you got that part right, except i probably should have emphasized only an IDIOT would buy, evaluate, diagnose and KILL a dog in ONE day.....if u need more reasons, start a thread and be prepared to defend your "maybe" comment.... emphasis on ONE - HIS words not mine, and note i didn't believe it actually happened that way and he hasn't clarified ...
> 
> Maybe he was able to see the character in the dog that first day.
> >>>you got that part WRONG.....see above ... only CM can do that - and only on TV


I can't disagree with that ^^ but maybe he just didn't explain himself very well.

Maybe :smile: he got the dog home, and a situation presented itself whereby he was instinctively advantaged to make a GOod judgement call ? Maybe he was just as you describe above ?

I wouldn't tolerate a kid biter, I wouldn't tolerate a dog who looks to me like he couldn't be trusted around kids, none of the dogs I have ever owned was not trustworthy around kids and one dog in particular was a sharp, biting dog. He had himself a good half dozen or more bites, but could be well trusted around kids. What's more, I've never had kids! :smile:


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## Holden Sawyer

I have APBT's and it would be pretty incorrect for them to be bad with kids. Mine are pretty true to the stereotype, love kids. I use my kid as bait in OB. He'll do super fast recalls for the kid. Medium fast for me. That sounds bad doesn't it? You know I don't mean as FOOD or TUG reward. That's clear, right? :smile:


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## maggie fraser

Holden Sawyer said:


> I have APBT's and it would be pretty incorrect for them to be bad with kids. Mine are pretty true to the stereotype, love kids. I use my kid as bait in OB. He'll do super fast recalls for the kid. Medium fast for me. That sounds bad doesn't it? You know I don't mean as FOOD or TUG reward. That's clear, right? :smile:


:lol:


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## Joby Becker

maggie fraser said:


> Lots of maybe's huh?
> 
> I think how a dog is with young kids is instinctual and down to character. If a person is instinctual by nature, they're often quicker on the uptake than a person who isn't. That is only the pro version of course.


pro verison? meaning what? does working dog=family pet in YOUR EYES?? who gives a FUKK if said working dog has character not good with small children in every circumstance? not me...

My dog at 13 weeks showed aggression to small female child in cute dress..puppy barked and wanted to engage little girl i assume in not playful manner (by the looks of it)....was not allowed to..

dog was raised in rural kennel environment for year NO SOCIALIZATION..when taken out at 1 yr showed aggression to kids on skateboards....blah blah blah

Dog was bred to be police dog, not pet..Not raised to be family dog either...

Dog has bitten ME if I act stupid...When dog was over 2 years old, I moved in wih GF and he 2 kids (12 AND 16).

Dog is crate kept..gets multiple times out a day and a few hours loose in house, CAT is locked up...(dog is not socialized with cats or kids)

Is this dog GOOD with kids? I SAY NO!!! Dog likes the kids in this family when they pet her and do things she likes...do the kids, or my gf try to take the dog's toys...NO.

do the GF or her kids try to force the dog to do something against her will?..NO

do they jerk her on a collar..NO
do they try to stuff her in a crate or tell her NO and enforce it? NO...
Do they try to take her toy from her? NO!
would the dog bite my GF or her kids under certain circumstances? YES!

is she good with KIDS? sure in my opinion...but that is variable terminology...would she bite kids..under certain circumstances.?? YES...she has bitten ME (when I am being dumb) and my GF (WHEN she tried to let dog out and then put her back in crate, against my wishes, when I was not present)....

she has only growled at the kids..no bites..good with kids YAY...cause I am super vigalent (sp?)...does she "love" me and the GF and the kids..my opinion is yes...
would she bite any of us under certain circumstances? yes will she protect her favorite kid angainst me or his mon YES......she loves what people do for her..she will show aggression if we threaten the chiild, yet she will also may bite the child if he does something outside the parameters..like stuffing her in crate or trying to take a toy......again keep in mind the dog was bred as police dog and made a house dog out of circumstance..

ok here are pics...is dog good with kids..sure..( our kids yes..under strict protocol..other kids? who the FUKK knows??? is dog weak or shitter..any decoy that has worked her would be lying through his teeth, if he said so)..here are pics...
































































good with kids ????????


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## maggie fraser

So what you're sayin Joby is, there are a few maybe's involved ? 

Did you read my post where I also quoted Max ?? I think you have made your stance on this topic quite clear Joby, you're also a fan of regular if not constant crating in addition to whipping (metaphorically speaking) the instinct out of a dog, if I have read your posts correctly.

Besides, you've had your say on this topic, how about allowing others to state their's also without being so rude and controlling.


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## Ashley Campbell

I think there is a world of difference between a child under 10 and a 12 and 16 year old Joby. Children under 10 are much smaller and uncoordinated, whereas a teenager is already adult sized and should be growing into some common sense by then.

Just sayin'.


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## Don Turnipseed

If I was a trainer, having a dog that didn't like kids wouldn't bother me in the least because I would take whatever steps nescessary to insure the dogs safety from kids. As a breeder, no. I won't tolerate a dog that shows weak character and that is what I consider it. It is the same character that has 100 lb dogs setting upon 20 lb dogs and killng or maiming them. In all honesty, I don't like kids at all.....but my dogs better.


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## Joby Becker

Ashley Campbell said:


> I think there is a world of difference between a child under 10 and a 12 and 16 year old Joby. Children under 10 are much smaller and uncoordinated, whereas a teenager is already adult sized and should be growing into some common sense by then.
> 
> Just sayin'.


 I agree..thats why the ???...good with kids is subjective term...

Because dog in question may not be good with a small child,in every situation.. has no bearing on its quality as a working dog.or whther it is a strong or weak dog..

..it may have considerable bearing on the whether it is an appropriate family or pet dog...

is my dog a good working type dog...yes..

is it a good family or pet dog....in general terms NO!...

in terms of MY family..... yes...

if dog was allowed to be rescued from me and the horrible treatment she endures and moved to family that gives her unconditional love and unlimited access to toys, kids and household..my guess is she would make a day or two...and then attack the people who rescued her,maybe starting with the adults..or maybe the kids..attacked over toys...attacked over food, when tried to stuff in crate...attack when tried to be controlled or forced to do something she did not want to do..
only guessing here...but is educated guess...trust me

point is for what she is...a police type bred dog....dog is great with kids in my situation and terms and exposure...
is she a dog that I can give to X Y Z, who has kids..and be integrated into that pet household....NO...

so is dog good with kids or bad with kids?


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## Ashley Campbell

The term is subjective. What you consider a reasonable response from your dog probably wouldn't fly in my house because it can't. Any of my kids can put the dogs in their crate without me having to be concerned if they're going to get their face torn off. Same goes for taking away toys, bones, food. My dogs have to be tolerant of that because kids make mistakes - and all of mine are under 7 years old.

Let's face it, one is a sport/work bred dog out of Czech lines. BUT, he's a pet first and foremost and lives in my house and therefore, has to live by my rules and respect the kids.

Would I have your dog around my kids? **** no. You may consider her "good" around kids but that dog wouldn't last in my house with that kind of behavior. Regardless of what she was bred for, because there are plenty of shitty bred pets with the same issues, it's still behavior that is unacceptable in a household with small children regardless of breed even.

I'd say she's untrustworthy around children and adults both if she'll bite your GF.


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## mike finn

Joby Becker said:


> maybe he should not have bought the dog.
> Maybe the dog would have been fine with someone who does not have kids, or was not interested in making it a family housedog.


 Joby , your situation may be different but I have young kids. I did not take the kids with me whe I picked the dog up.His previouse owner had a two year old. How ever I did take him to a park on a goodstrong lead before I bought him home to see his reaction around kids. The first kid he saw his
hair went up on the bacck of his neck, he let out a low growl and went after him. I checked him pretty hard and tried it agian a little while later. This dog wanted a peice of those kids,t here is no doubt in my mind.
I took him straight to animal control. As soon as I walked in the door with him the female deputy i know said"I know that son of a bitch, he tried to eat me." Apparently the dog had been banned from base housing due to being dangerous.The woman I got him from knew I have kids and did not mention it even though I asked her about that dog and kids. I may not be an expert like some of the people on here, but I do have a working knowledge of dogs. 
As far as your point about some one else getting the dog who has no kids, I do not care. Most people live around other people. To many people are not informed enough or do not have the common sense to own a dangerouse animal. Why risk it? Why keep an animal that is unstable and should not be bred? I may have different values than you, but to me kids are more important than any dog on the planet. And I love dogs. 
I have had working type dogs when I have kids. Of course I will always watch them when they are together but I have to have 100% trust in a dog if it is going to be part of my family.


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## Carlos Machado

I have to agree with you ashley dogs of all sizes and backgrounds have these issues from the spoiled toy poodle to working police dogs it doesn't mean that they can't be taught to to not be possessive of there food or toys with there family some may never be safe but most can learn and once they realize nobody want's there bone and there is no need for there insecurity. My pup did growl over food my daughter was 2 and stepdaughter was 5 when I got my dog I had them hand feed the pup first then had them add food to the bowl while she was eating the dog realized nobody wanted her food. Bones were a little tougher she scared them a few times I would lay the pup on her side leaving the bone in her mouth even putting it back in her mouth and had the kids help me hold the pup down it took many sessions but she soon realized nobody wanted here bone ether if I hadn't done these things my dog would not be safe around kids in some situations but because I did the dog is 3 now and safe as can be she will accept 4 kids under 6 hugging at once even with a bone and while she is eating.
How many people would allow there dog to growl or bite them over food or bones not many here I guess why would it be allowed for the rest of the family even Ceaser M can get dogs over this dogs need to be taught what is allowed and not.


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## Joby Becker

Ashley Campbell said:


> The term is subjective. What you consider a reasonable response from your dog probably wouldn't fly in my house because it can't. Any of my kids can put the dogs in their crate without me having to be concerned if they're going to get their face torn off. Same goes for taking away toys, bones, food. My dogs have to be tolerant of that because kids make mistakes - and all of mine are under 7 years old.
> 
> Let's face it, one is a sport/work bred dog out of Czech lines. BUT, he's a pet first and foremost and lives in my house and therefore, has to live by my rules and respect the kids.
> 
> Would I have your dog around my kids? **** no. You may consider her "good" around kids but that dog wouldn't last in my house with that kind of behavior. Regardless of what she was bred for, because there are plenty of shitty bred pets with the same issues, it's still behavior that is unacceptable in a household with small children regardless of breed even.
> 
> I'd say she's untrustworthy around children and adults both if she'll bite your GF.


she will bite me if I intentionally fukk with her, or try to steal toys from her without giving her a command for a placement, or a leave it..she bit my GF because she took her out and let her run the house and then tried to put her back in crate when she refused to go in...

i can shoot hours of video of her doing OB around small children. i could stage scenarios to show she is great with kids...

does this mean she is good with kids...NOT TO MOST PEOPLE...

my point is this...I never say she is good with kids, I never said if she had puppies that people should try to make them house pets...in fact the people I did correspond with, I specifically told them the dogs would not likely make good pets, even though my bitch was raised in kennel environment for the first year...thing might have been way different with proper socialization and if dog was raised in a house..who knows.... 

the point is the dog is trustworthy under controlled parameters and responsible handling...

I already said dog is not a pet candidate..

my point is this:

CERTAIN TYPES OF WORKING DOGS ARE NOT MEANT TO BE HOUSEHOLD PETS, OR EXPECTED TO LIVE INSIDE THE HOME, LOOSE, WITH CHILDREN OR STRANGERS.....

dog has not shown any aggression to family members in the last year..

i am lazy...i have crate..i have no interest in making dog perfect house pet...dog had no socialization before a year old..could I do it with effort SURE...just not necessary..so...good or bad for a working dog?

My main issue,,, is the seemingly ever growing opinion that a "working" dog that may not be 100% trustworthy around kids or strangers is somehow a weak or nervy dog..or should be put down...

it is my opinion that dogs of the above type would be fine if owners respected them for what they were, and did not try to treat them as house pets.


----------



## Ashley Campbell

If it wasn't a working dog would you say the same for say a Golden Retriever that wants to tear into anyone trying to stuff it in a crate or taking it's bone away? We had one in my house for a short period and the management issues with a GR that would guard anything and bite anyone was a pain in the ass. 
That dog grew up with children also and I would NEVER have trusted him around my kids. He was just some shit bred pet store dog that someone got and couldn't handle, gave it to me, and I was going to put down because it was f'ing dangerous to adults and children alike and then it died, probably of a stroke or heart attack. 

Some dogs just aren't meant for a family environment, I'll agree with you there, but to say it's because of what they're bred for...I don't agree with that. Individual personality and upbringing make up for a lot of it. 
Who knows, maybe Luna would be great with kids if she'd been around them from an 8 week old pup, or maybe she wouldn't - I'd probably bet my money on the latter after your description but not my dog so can't say. Since she wasn't socialized around them young, there's no telling "what might have been". Then again, some dogs are just "naturally" good around kids even if they aren't extensively socialized with little people. 

Even like people, some people are wired to love children, others think they're all snot nosed little brats.


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## Joby Becker

Ashley Campbell said:


> If it wasn't a working dog would you say the same for say a Golden Retriever that wants to tear into anyone trying to stuff it in a crate or taking it's bone away? We had one in my house for a short period and the management issues with a GR that would guard anything and bite anyone was a pain in the ass.
> That dog grew up with children also and I would NEVER have trusted him around my kids. He was just some shit bred pet store dog that someone got and couldn't handle, gave it to me, and I was going to put down because it was f'ing dangerous to adults and children alike and then it died, probably of a stroke or heart attack.
> 
> Some dogs just aren't meant for a family environment, I'll agree with you there, but to say it's because of what they're bred for...I don't agree with that. Individual personality and upbringing make up for a lot of it.
> Who knows, maybe Luna would be great with kids if she'd been around them from an 8 week old pup, or maybe she wouldn't - I'd probably bet my money on the latter after your description but not my dog so can't say. Since she wasn't socialized around them young, there's no telling "what might have been". Then again, some dogs are just "naturally" good around kids even if they aren't extensively socialized with little people.
> 
> Even like people, some people are wired to love children, others think they're all snot nosed little brats.


I agree..I do like kids, never ever had a dog bite a kid,,,even though I have had plenty of dogs that would bite a kid if allowed to...

so is the dog unstable, weak, nervy, not a good working dog? (or just not a good family pet?)

I say NO..could she bite someone she shouldnt if allowed to under certain curcumstances....YES


----------



## rick smith

one aspect of this thread has been left out, and that is kids and parents need to be trained as much as the dogs they live with or might come in contact with. that is one reason why i will often toss a tug in front of kids, fragile seniors with canes or wheelchair riders. it's not just a "show off" pet trick. it's to show them how suddenly a dog can switch behavior and become a fast moving, lunging BITER who snarls and growls.
- whenever i work a dog around kids, the kids are getting as much training as the dog, cause they rarely get it from parents anymore, especially if there's no dog in the family
- when they see this they get the point CLEARLY and begin to understand that a dog is not a battery powered stuffed animal
- since i deal with these kinds "aggression" problems often, i also make it a point to press home to the owner that a biting out of control dog is way more dangerous than a wild animal, who has the instinct to run rather than stay and bite. i also let em know how easy it is for their punk dog to scare a kid and traumatize them for decades because their punk dog might lunge and bark in their face without even touching them. i lay on the guilt QUITE heavily and most get it sooner or later 
- and i constantly work these kind of problem dogs in public. not a day goes by when i don't have to hollar at a stupid parent to NOT let their kid run up to the dog i'm with. maybe it's just a Ja thing but it amazes me how little parents know about kids/dogs in general

...so a Q to throw out since we're kinda on this topic 
you are socializing fluffy the punk who bites in public, but he's getting better ... he's ready for some interaction ... is it safer to have a stranger feed him or pet him, and how do you do it ? probably a no brainer but a lot of owners i work with get it wrong


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## Ashley Campbell

Joby Becker said:


> I agree..I do like kids, never ever had a dog bite a kid,,,even though I have had plenty of dogs that would bite a kid if allowed to...
> 
> so is the dog unstable, weak, nervy, not a good working dog? (or just not a good family pet?)
> 
> I say NO..could she bite someone she shouldnt if allowed to under certain curcumstances....YES


Not my dog so I couldn't begin to say if I thought it was unstable or nervy - I wouldn't discount it as a good working dog but I might if she "might" bite someone she shouldn't. Depends on why she's biting someone inappropriate if it's a nerve issue or unstable or whatever - but that's for a different thread, lol.



> ...so a Q to throw out since we're kinda on this topic
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you are socializing fluffy the punk who bites in public, but he's getting better ... he's ready for some interaction ... is it safer to have a stranger feed him or pet him, and how do you do it ? probably a no brainer but a lot of owners i work with get it wrong


If I had a dog that bites people in public and is showing improvement, I still wouldn't have that dog at say PetSmart and letting people pet and feed it. For that I'd want a controlled environment where the people helping were dog saavy and knew the issues - not just John Q Public wanting to pet Fluffy because "Oh he's so cute"...that's just asking for a problem.


----------



## Joby Becker

rick smith said:


> ...so a Q to throw out since we're kinda on this topic
> you are socializing fluffy the punk who bites in public, but he's getting better ... he's ready for some interaction ... is it safer to have a stranger feed him or pet him, and how do you do it ? probably a no brainer but a lot of owners i work with get it wrong


I never had a dog that would bite in public..I have dogs that would refuse a treat from a stranger, and would tolerate petting to a normal degree, as long as some idiot would not get on his knees and try to hug the dog...

I also would not automatically classify a dog that may have aggressive tendencies as a punk...although I do realize that is a 95%+ given...

for the record. under normal social circumstances (which I determine), my dog is the perfect public dog.


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## catherine hardigan

Why would you buy a dog bred specifically to be a police dog if you are not a police officer? Do you plan on training it and selling it to a department?

I think this is part of the issue: dogs bred to be police or military k9's are owned by private individuals who keep the dog as a pet and train for a sport venue.


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## Don Turnipseed

Very good point Catherine.


----------



## Gerry Grimwood

catherine hardigan said:


> Why would you buy a dog bred specifically to be a police dog if you are not a police officer? Do you plan on training it and selling it to a department?
> 
> I think this is part of the issue: dogs bred to be police or military k9's are owned by private individuals who keep the dog as a pet and train for a sport venue.





Don Turnipseed said:


> Very good point Catherine.


If that were true, every dog from sport/hunting breeding wouldn't be suitable for anything else ..right ?


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Gerry Grimwood said:


> If that were true, every dog from sport/hunting breeding wouldn't be suitable for anything else ..right ?


Wrong.


----------



## Guest

Don Turnipseed said:


> Wrong.


 
Don, how is your pup doing that Jennifer Marshal has training in some bitesport?


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## Don Turnipseed

That pup got into coyote bait and died.


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## Kellie Wolverton

This thread kind of surprises me.

When you have working dogs, they are managed accordingly. Period. 

Why in the world would any one take a high drive dog , for whatever sport/work, and _expect_ it to be lovey dovey golden retriever at home and alligator working dog out in the field?

If you have small children...maybe you need to wait until they are older to get your dream dog. Saves a dog and a kid at the same time:idea:

I was just talking with someone the other day about my dog. He is stable, has good manners, biddable,never has bitten anyone, very talented herding dog. BUT he is a little "weird" Does not want any one , other than family, messing with him. Is "aloof" with strangers. The person I was talking with said "the good ones are usually a little weird one way or another"

He needs to be managed according to his personality...but that does not make him "less than" an easier managed dog.

If you have a dog that is good around kids...great...if you have a dog that is not so good around kids...ok too. Management is the key, for us anyway.

I am a little weird too though, I don't want other people petting and loving on my dogs...I got my dogs for me...not them:mrgreen:

Maybe the question should be "How are your kids with dogs?":-k


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## Joby Becker

catherine hardigan said:


> Why would you buy a dog bred specifically to be a police dog if you are not a police officer? Do you plan on training it and selling it to a department?
> 
> I think this is part of the issue: dogs bred to be police or military k9's are owned by private individuals who keep the dog as a pet and train for a sport venue.


good question....because I wanted one....

I imagine that could be an issue if the person was not familiar with the type of dog they got, or were not able to handle the dog properly. 

The dog tagged my GF's wrist one time, when she tried to stuff her in a crate, after I told her not to take the dog out...I was not home...that was shortly after I moved in with her.well over a year ago...the dogs is fine with her now...I hardly call that an "issue".

most of the training I do with the dog is with the local or county K9 officers, and we pretend to play SCH too.

They often try to purchase the dog..mention it at least once a month, trying to break me down...but she is not for sale...

I guess she is a pet, just as at least 95% of everyone's dogs on here are..LOL. 

what in your mind is the difference in owning a sport dog and a dog that may have ended up as a police dog?


----------



## mike finn

Kellie Wolverton said:


> This thread kind of surprises me.
> 
> When you have working dogs, they are managed accordingly. Period.
> 
> Why in the world would any one take a high drive dog , for whatever sport/work, and _expect_ it to be lovey dovey golden retriever at home and alligator working dog out in the field?
> 
> If you have small children...maybe you need to wait until they are older to get your dream dog. Saves a dog and a kid at the same time:idea:
> 
> I was just talking with someone the other day about my dog. He is stable, has good manners, biddable,never has bitten anyone, very talented herding dog. BUT he is a little "weird" Does not want any one , other than family, messing with him. Is "aloof" with strangers. The person I was talking with said "the good ones are usually a little weird one way or another"
> 
> He needs to be managed according to his personality...but that does not make him "less than" an easier managed dog.
> 
> If you have a dog that is good around kids...great...if you have a dog that is not so good around kids...ok too. Management is the key, for us anyway.
> 
> I am a little weird too though, I don't want other people petting and loving on my dogs...I got my dogs for me...not them:mrgreen:
> 
> Maybe the question should be "How are your kids with dogs?":-k


I have had working dogs before tht were also great around kids. To me a working dog is no good if he is in a kennel and not in the house. No one breaks into a kennel . You can have both a good working dog and a good pet.


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## maggie fraser

rick smith said:


> one aspect of this thread has been left out, and that is kids and parents need to be trained as much as the dogs they live with or might come in contact with. that is one reason why i will often toss a tug in front of kids, fragile seniors with canes or wheelchair riders. it's not just a "show off" pet trick. it's to show them how suddenly a dog can switch behavior and become a fast moving, lunging BITER who snarls and growls.
> - whenever i work a dog around kids, the kids are getting as much training as the dog, cause they rarely get it from parents anymore, especially if there's no dog in the family


I like my dogs to be social and I too, like a few others on here believe it to be largely genetic/character. I like them to be social because I live and interact with people and there is really nowhere much which is out of bounds for me.

I will also take opportunity to 'educate' kids, had such a scenario a couple of weeks ago. A few young children who over a time have become interested in my gsd and who will now pet him when they see him off leash, albeit a little too enthusiastically.

I did a little demo for them, put the dog in a sit stay and went and hid my keys in the grass. They were all quite shocked, and alarmed at his sudden change in behaviour and energy as he exploded growling and vocalising on release to search. They instantly learned greater respect for him, and have learned something very valuable.


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## Gillian Schuler

Bob Scott said:


> I think strong leadership, man or dog, brings out the genetic obedience. :wink:
> I never had a dog I owned that wasn't "genetically" obedient. We just call that good truck dogs. :-D


Manfred Heyne, the German Herder "Guru" said he wouldn't breed from dogs that were not obedient.


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## Gillian Schuler

Brian Anderson said:


> We never allow our dogs around children unsupervised PERIOD. This assures me there will not be any instances where a child gets hurt. If we had lower drive pet type dogs i would probably be different.


This is what I hate to hear!! Low drive, high drive - which dog is going to allow it's tail pulled, grabbed around it's throat, etc.!!!

I have a "high drive GSD", who absolutely loves humans - kids and adults - but, once an adult took him in a clinch - he growled, I called him to heel - nothing happened.

Why does most everyone assume that a "high drive dog" is any different from the "low drive" dog. As Jeff O said, it's the character.

There is really something here that has to be addressed. Canines are canines and drive doesn't play an important part in this discussion.

We haven't got kids but I can assure you that low or high drive dogs in our household would be on the lowest rung in the heirachy. Maybe some members on here would be well advised to adhere to this.


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## Faisal Khan

Be safe, supervise 100% until child is = or > 11 years old. Too many news items of toddlers/young children being chewed up by house pets, best to be safe and not become a statistic.


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## Joby Becker

Gillian Schuler said:


> This is what I hate to hear!! Low drive, high drive - which dog is going to allow it's tail pulled, grabbed around it's throat, etc.!!!
> 
> I have a "high drive GSD", who absolutely loves humans - kids and adults - but, once an adult took him in a clinch - he growled, I called him to heel - nothing happened.
> 
> Why does most everyone assume that a "high drive dog" is any different from the "low drive" dog. As Jeff O said, it's the character.
> 
> There is really something here that has to be addressed. Canines are canines and drive doesn't play an important part in this discussion.
> 
> We haven't got kids but I can assure you that low or high drive dogs in our household would be on the lowest rung in the heirachy. Maybe some members on here would be well advised to adhere to this.


I do think most of it is character for sure, if you are talking about dogs that intentionally bite someone out of aggression. 

The high drive dog can present other problems with small children if he is not a dog that is careful by nature around small children, especially if the dog has not had good household manners/obedience work...and is allowed to be real active in the house.

Dogs for the most part do things to please themselves, they have an agenda all their own, that might not mesh instantly with small kids...


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## Gillian Schuler

Quote: Why would you buy a dog bred specifically to be a police dog if you are not a police officer? Do you plan on training it and selling it to a department?

Unquote

How many breeders do you know of that breed dogs solely for the police force?


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## Brian Anderson

rick smith said:


> re: "We never allow our dogs around children unsupervised PERIOD. This assures me there will not be any instances where a child gets hurt. If we had lower drive pet type dogs i would probably be different."
> >>> so what are you saying ? do you allow them around children when supervised ?
> if not what you're doing is isolating the dog to prevent a potential problem rather than train so it isn't a problem... sure that's safe, and a heckofa lot easier, but it begs the question of whether a dog in a household should be taught how to be safe with kids.
> - i say YES in all circumstances and if it can't or won't be done, the dog should be kept like the wild animal it is - in a cage or hired out to a junkyard. period.
> - it makes No difference how much "drive" the dog has; it only depends on whether the owner teaches the dog or not and i've said before i feel strongly all dogs can be taught to handle kids safely.....most quickly...a few take time; none are beyond hope, and the higher the level of training the easier it usually is
> - if your dog is a tool that you don't want to spend time making them safe with little humans; fine - the same applies keep em caged when they aren't at work
> - and i'm sure you've all run across the macho types that almost think it's cool that their big bad dog thinks kids are lunch...it doesn't impress me
> - i'm much more proud that i can have my HI drive dog lay his head on a visiting kid and then toss a tug and have him charge back growling, tug, out it and then drop his head back on the little tyke
> - nothing wrong with rewarding a dog for being nice ... responsible supervision in action and the kids like it too and learn quickly why they shouldn't pester and bother a dog they don't know that doesn't belong to them


Rick what that means is that my dogs are NEVER allowed around children unless myself or my wife is there closely monitoring them. Dont start assuming how I raise or care for my dogs by a simple statement which I will stand by PERIOD. You do whatever you want with your dog(s) and children. I will do what I do after 30 years experience with dogs. Your feel good approach can get somebody hurt with the wrong dog in the right situation.


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## catherine hardigan

To the original poster:

I think the take-home message from this thread is that people who have young children and people who don't generally have two different ideas of what "good with kids" and "dog safety with kids" mean.

There seem to be a lot of owners out there who either get the wrong type of dog (ego, ignorance or bad luck), or who tolerate unsafe interactions with family members so that the dog can live inside the house. 

You may not want to ask these folks to babysit.


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## Joby Becker

Gillian Schuler said:


> Quote: Why would you buy a dog bred specifically to be a police dog if you are not a police officer? Do you plan on training it and selling it to a department?
> 
> Unquote
> 
> How many breeders do you know of that breed dogs solely for the police force?


that came from me, I said the dog was bred to be a police dog. and was most likely not accurate...the goal "I believe" was to produce dogs suitable for single or dual purpose type work. Most of the litter did go on to do those types of jobs. 

It was out of a repeat breeding of dogs from KNPV lines, first litter produced dogs suitable for the work.

I think the goal of the KNPV breeders is to breed police type dogs, and I think the breeder I got my dog from does breedings to produce the same type of dogs.

that being said, this dog is a good candidate for dual purpose work.

this thread is all over the map.

dog has never bitten a kid, only growled at kid one time when kid tried to take a toy out of its mouth, kid does not do that anymore.

dog is social dog in my book. Just went on vacation, my SCH decoy is the person that watched her while I was gone, and he takes bites from her almost every week...He had her out around his family, and took her to work with him a few times...but he also has been owning working type dogs for 20 yrs or so.

my input was that social or good with kids are relative terms..a dog does not have to be aggressive or looking to bite kids to be a danger to them.

if I take a ball and do OB with it around a kid, or a group of them, and dog is focused on the ball, is that dog good with kids? who knows.

To some people good with kids means like golden retriever good with kids, a dog that is fine with kids riding him and climbing on him, pulling his ears, holding him up by his back legs and walking him like a wheelbarrow...to some people social means dog loves all people and would never bite anyone under any circumstances...

I agree working dogs (sport whatever) and dogs that are not working some official job can be looked at as pets...they also can be looked at like a farmer looks at livestock.

if a guy has a bull on his property is it a pet? are pigs pets?

if someone has draft horses because they have a large property and like to have parties and events and have wagon, carriage, or sleigh rides, for their freinds, are they pets? or are they working animals?

a working type dog, a sport dog or whatever in my opinion does not have to be always be a like a family pet dog, some breeders breed for these qualities, putting a lot of weight on that aspect...some breed more towards the dog doing whatever type of "work" the dog will be expected to do, whether it is an official job, or sport or whatever...and put less emphasis on the dog being an ideal family dog.


what I think is important is that the owner of the dog is happy with the dog and how it fits into his lifestyle, and what he expects from the dog, and that the animal is treated properly and taken care of properly, and contained and handled responsibly to avoid problems to family and to the public. 

I do not think it is important for all "working dogs" to be great family pets, whether they are "official" working dogs, or sport dogs, or whatever. Many of these dogs will not fit that bill, does that make them less of a "working" dog, I think not...might be a dog that certain people might not like. too each his own. 

I dont care if someone has a nutty dog that really would like nothing better than to bite people, as long as that person is qualified to train, control, handle, and keep that dog properly contained, without incident.

I think normal pet type dogs bite or kill FAR more people every year than dogs bred from working lines of working breeds, regardless if social or good with kids was a major consideration in the breeding. 

People that own working dog type dogs should not view them as pets persay, even though they technically are, but they are not golden retrievers, they are working animals, bred for "work", even if they dog not have an official job.


----------



## Kellie Wolverton

mike finn said:


> I have had working dogs before tht were also great around kids. To me a working dog is no good if he is in a kennel and not in the house. No one breaks into a kennel . You can have both a good working dog and a good pet.


I never said that you couldn't have both.

A couple of my dogs sleep out, a couple sleep in, much to my husbands dismay8-[. I guarantee if the bad guys gets passed the outside dogs, I have a huge problem that only a gun will fix.

I was referring to managing the dog around kids, company, etc.

I wonder how many people teach their kids proper "strange dog" etiquette? So that even if Fluffy at home tolerates pinching and pulling, they realize that not all dogs are Fluffy? or that it is not ok to run up to a strange dog and pet it?

I do have kids. They were taught , at a very young age, to not mess with the dogs. No ear pulling. no pouncing, no grab tail, no stealing food from the food bowl while the dog is eating. I see no reason for a dog to have to tolerate that crap. So it simply was never allowed here.


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## Gillian Schuler

Joby,

I agree with a lot of what you say. At the end of the day, it's the handler's control of the dog (whatever breed) that is important.

What I do not agree with is your last sentence on Golden Retrievers (or whatever). These "so-called" family dogs can be some of the worst out. Not only is there a strain of the Golden that produces less than stable dogs but any dog, be it Cocker Spaniel, Labrador, etc. can become a family menace.

On the whole I think that serious-minded sports dogs handlers have more knowledge of how their dog will react than the family head. Such dogs are never tested as to their stability.

One thing is sure, *no dog*, whatever breed, is 100% safe around children or adults without competent supervisionl


----------



## Ashley Campbell

Kellie Wolverton said:


> I never said that you couldn't have both.
> 
> A couple of my dogs sleep out, a couple sleep in, much to my husbands dismay8-[. I guarantee if the bad guys gets passed the outside dogs, I have a huge problem that only a gun will fix.
> 
> I was referring to managing the dog around kids, company, etc.
> 
> I wonder how many people teach their kids proper "strange dog" etiquette? So that even if Fluffy at home tolerates pinching and pulling, they realize that not all dogs are Fluffy? or that it is not ok to run up to a strange dog and pet it?
> 
> I do have kids. They were taught , at a very young age, to not mess with the dogs. No ear pulling. no pouncing, no grab tail, no stealing food from the food bowl while the dog is eating. I see no reason for a dog to have to tolerate that crap. So it simply was never allowed here.


I think more people than I had originally thought teach their kids about strange dogs. I've brought my two down with me to pick my oldest son up from school (close enough to walk). I'd say that though the dogs got mobbed by a herd of children, 95% of the mob was respectful of them, didn't pet them without asking, and didn't crowd or try to hug. These were all young children, elementary school age. Nobody poked or pulled. Now maybe that's not an example of how most children are, but at least all the little folks at my son's school were really good with the dogs. 

I was rather surprised at how well the kids were with the dogs, and enamoured by GSD's. Parents were worse than the children with walking up and petting without asking to be honest.


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Joby Becker,

My question was originally aimed at Catherine Hardigan's post about why buy a police dog if you're not going to use it as one, or words to that effect.


----------



## Joby Becker

Gillian Schuler said:


> Joby Becker,
> 
> My question was originally aimed at Catherine Hardigan's post about why buy a police dog if you're not going to use it as one, or words to that effect.


I know...she took that phrase out of one of my post's though I think...

I would like to know what she feels is the difference between owning a dog that will be proficient in a biting dogsport, and a dog that may be a suitable police dog candidate.

I do not see a difference in the ownership of these 2 types of dogs..they all will have certain traits of varying degrees, and might be potentially dangerous under the wrong circumstances..


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## Bob Scott

Absolutely nothing wrong with someone wanting to own a dog that has the correct character/temperment to be a LEO K9. 
That character/temperment doesn't mean it has to be a snarly, untrustworthy dog around kids or the public in general.


----------



## Joby Becker

Bob Scott said:


> Absolutely nothing wrong with someone wanting to own a dog that has the correct character/temperment to be a LEO K9.
> That character/temperment doesn't mean it has to be a snarly, untrustworthy dog around kids or the public in general.


that is what I was thinking...same as owning a sport dog basically....


----------



## Alison Grubb

Joby Becker said:


> what I think is important is that the owner of the dog is happy with the dog and how it fits into his lifestyle, and what he expects from the dog, and that the animal is treated properly and taken care of properly, and contained and handled responsibly to avoid problems to family and to the public.


This sums it up for me.

I have a range of dogs here from the dog who will let kids (and pretty much anyone) do whatever they want to him - pull on him, ride him, pinch him, etc - to the dog who really kinda prefers that other people not mess with him. I manage the dogs differently based on their temperaments and the situation we are in.

The responsibility rests on the handler imo.


----------



## rick smith

regarding the poster who labeled me a "feel good" type..... you are dead wrong.... l have also "rehabbed" mwd's ... last case was a nine year old Mal retired mwd - not a "fluff" type by any means, who had "issues" with kids ...RESOLVED in two weeks

i have only stated any dog can and SHOULD be trained by any owner with correct training ability, to "safe" their dog around kids, and other people (strangers, wheel chair drivers, fragile seniors -ETC)
- if they can't .. either the dog or the owner isn't worth a sh**

if they don't WANT to, or can't, due to time/funding restraints because of the work their dog does - FINE too - just keep the tools in the tool shed where they belong

and i NEVER said supervision wasn't needed .... that is a F*****G basic of responsible ownership

and i could totally care less what breed it is, or what size it is, or how hi or lo you think it's drive is


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## rick smith

Originally Posted by Bob Scott 
Absolutely nothing wrong with someone wanting to own a dog that has the correct character/temperment to be a LEO K9. 
That character/temperment doesn't mean it has to be a snarly, untrustworthy dog around kids or the public in general.

so true and SO freaking simple !!!

this thread has been (a little) interesting but would be more beneficial if i was reading about techniques used rather than all the other comments to try and justify keeping a punk dog punky or why they are so big and bad that they need to be isolated
- don't know how frequently psd's ever get to retire, or fail to recert and leave the program but mwd's do sometimes and i am very familiar with that process, and altho they are evaluated before being cleared for adoption, they can often have a few issues that need work on after they change their lifestyle .... so don't even try and tell me an old dog is too set in their ways ... i won't agree


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## Megan Bays

Here are some pics of my late GSD, Boss:


072 by MeganBays, on Flickr

073 by MeganBays, on Flickr

074 by MeganBays, on Flickr

075 by MeganBays, on Flickr

This was last summer, on a crowded weekend at Blackwater Falls in WV. He's in a down between my husband's legs so that he's out of the way better. I was taking pics of the falls, and then saw the crowd of kids hovering over him so I figured I'd snap a few. The parent's didn't even know the kids were petting him, but Scott said they all asked if they could when I asked.


IMG_0625 by MeganBays, on Flickr

IMG_0611 by MeganBays, on Flickr

IMG_0608 by MeganBays, on Flickr

My Boys... by MeganBays, on Flickr

These are pics with my 6-ish month old son last summer. Kole's favorite thing to do was ride around on the back of Boss  . We really miss him, he went everywhere with us.

Dutchie pup pics with Kole:

095 by MeganBays, on Flickr

070 by MeganBays, on Flickr

Green and Kole by MeganBays, on Flickr

Green and Kole by MeganBays, on Flickr

Even though those pups were raised around Kole, there isn't a snowball's chance in hell that I'm letting them out around each other now. They aren't being raised as pets, and are managed accordingly.

Until Boss was mature and I had proper control of him, I never allowed him to be put in those types of situations pictured above. Simple common sense and management.


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## Chris Jones II

Ashley Campbell said:


> The term is subjective. What you consider a reasonable response from your dog probably wouldn't fly in my house because it can't. Any of my kids can put the dogs in their crate without me having to be concerned if they're going to get their face torn off. Same goes for taking away toys, bones, food. My dogs have to be tolerant of that because kids make mistakes - and all of mine are under 7 years old.
> 
> Let's face it, one is a sport/work bred dog out of Czech lines. BUT, he's a pet first and foremost and lives in my house and therefore, has to live by my rules and respect the kids.
> 
> Would I have your dog around my kids? **** no. You may consider her "good" around kids but that dog wouldn't last in my house with that kind of behavior. Regardless of what she was bred for, because there are plenty of shitty bred pets with the same issues, it's still behavior that is unacceptable in a household with small children regardless of breed even.
> 
> I'd say she's untrustworthy around children and adults both if she'll bite your GF.


Good point. What's the difference between an great "working dog" who will bite his owners without warning for touching him or putting him in a crate and a backyard bred or puppy mill dog who does the same? Same behavior.


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## Joby Becker

LOL...

not sure how much of some of these responses are directed at things I contributed to the thread or not...I think maybe in the heat of the passion of the subject some things got got misinterpreted...



> Good point. What's the difference between an great "working dog" who will bite his owners without warning for touching him or putting him in a crate and a backyard bred or puppy mill dog who does the same? Same behavior.


Not in reference to the biting the owner without warning for touching him....but to crating reference..the difference might be that the dog was a quality dog that was bought when older and had some issues that developed with the crate or kennel from a previous owner, this is not unheard of...some of those types of dogs it is smarter to manage the problem than to pick a fight you might not win easily...or at all, depending on who you are...there are plenty of dogs out there that may fight you, if you make it an issue...


If this is in response to anything I said. I never said I had a dog that would bite its owners without warning for touching him. 

I think any dog that will bite his owner just for touching him, either really was a terrible match for that owner, or he is a dog that should be put down..

If it was the first example, there would be a many many warning signs, over a lengthy time period, that the owner somehow was oblivious to, and the owner would really have to almost try to complicate the issues to get to that point of the dog biting him without warning for touching him...

If that comment is in response to my stating that my current dog BIT my GF when she tried to put her in a crate. I already have given the back story but will do it again...in greater detail to avoid confusion on the issue...the dog did "bite" my gf, but it was not without warning...](*,)](*,)

Dog was raised in kennel environment on rural property, not much in the way of socialization with people. Dog had never been handled by anyone but me...Dog was moved into a household situation, when I moved in with my GF. 

Very early in that adjustment period, one time when I was not home. My girlfriend, against strict orders, NOT to take the dog outside, decided to take the dog outside.

This is a girl who has never owned her own dog, and has never done any type of training with a dog, and whos family has only owned pugs, while she was growing up.

She had never handled THIS dog before, never let dog out of crate, never put a collar on the dog, never walked the dog, never gave dog commands before, she was slightly fearful of the dog because she has never been around dogs other than pugs that much, to add to her uneasiness she had attended a couple of bite work sessions on top of it.

At that point in her and the dogs relationship in my mind it was potentially dangerous for her to attempt to handle the dog, especially without me there. Which is why she was told not to let the dog out of its crate. Sounds responsible to me...

There are a mulitude of things that could have went horribly wrong at that time in the scenario...resulting in possible serious bite..

she put prong collar on dog, had her on leash in the house with the cat (dog was not raised with cats, and only wanted to eat cats that she saw outside at that point), and with her children present in the room. She took dog outside, and for a walk around the block, on a prong. Supposedly was giving the dog commands and everything. Even, according to her, had to pop dog to get her moving when a loose dog ran up (this place is full of loose ankle biters) and charged them..then proceded to take dog back in the house. Then told dog to sit, took off prong collar and told her to go back in her crate. The dog refused to go in the crate for her. She then grabbed leather collar and tried to push dog into the crate, dog growled, GF hesitated (had not clue how to deal with this type of stuff, tried again to put dog forcibly into the crate, dog tagged her (checked her) on her wrist and got loose from her..She was wearing a winter coat and dog did not break the skin, she did have bruising and some skin friction abrasions from the canines.

So now dog is running loose in a house that she has only been in a few days, after being raised in a kennel environment, in a house with a loose cat, my gf and a 12 yr old and 16 yr old kid..none of which had handled the dog at that point...

She quickly recovered and somehow had quick thinking to grab a couple hotdogs and fed the dog one, and through the other one it the crate, dog went in, she locked the crate..end of incident, crisis averted...

Who knows what could have happened, this was all new territory to the dog, and I, the dog's owner and handler, was not there. 

Any one of the things that happened in this whole thing could've went terribly wrong...I am glad it went as smoothly as it did, and was truly surprised when I heard all the details of what she actually did with the dog..

To address the rest of the posts that might concern this dog. I will try to explain better about her and my points in this thread in general..

The dog was not really exposed to kids very much at all before moving into this house. She had been around kids at training, and had seen kids on walks and things, but had never been touched or handled by kids, or lived with kids.

She initially (the first time ) at about a year old, when taken out into public had some issues, eyed small kids, barked at skateboarding teens and people on bikes. I corrected those issues THAT day. Which ensued in a small fight between me and the dog, which I won, after a little back and forth...yes the dog did attempt to bite me, she was young though..so not a major deal...She had not received many corrections at that point, and certainly not in the fashion that these were administered in. 

Since that initial day of those displays, she has never eyed kids, never barked or lunged at skateboarders, people on bikes, never displayed any of those behaviors.

There was ONE time when the dog "growled" at the 11 yr old we have here, who is now 12. This was long after the dog was moved here. In fact it was the same day this picture was taken.










The kid has a huge interest in the dog and likes to get involved in the training of the dog, he sometimes handles her on a flat, and I work the E collar, he does not correct the dog himself on a prong collar, for safety reasons.

That day he was having dog "cap" herself in the house, working with a tennis ball, working positions and holding positions after ball was thrown down the hall, making her wait for the release. Dog worked for him quite well with minimal input from the E collar on low levels..and me basically telling her to comply with him by enforcing his commands, intitially dog looked to me, if he said "FUSS" dog would come across the room to me and fuss...after a little bit she was responding to him, and was doing well with him...she was bringing the ball back to him and dropping it in his hand....after about 20 minutes of this the dog decided not to drop the ball in his hand, and he tried to take it out of his mouth, the dog growled, I immediately got involved and "addressed the issue". Would the dog have bitten him, if he persisted? my guess is YES..

Besides these two isolated incidents in the home, there has been no aggression to my GF or her 2 kids. There has not been any unwarranted aggression to anyone outside the home, since that first day at the park. Could I put the dog in situations that would result in aggression if I was a total idiot, YES!

I have already stated that I do not think my dog would be labeled as good with kids by most people,and may not be labeled a social dog by some people...

I think the dog is social (as in socially neutral), and is good with kids (the kids in this house) under certain circumstances...

Does the 12 yr old slap a prong on the dog and order her around?...NO.
Does he old take dog out by himself?...NO.
Does he try to take things out of her mouth if she does not offer them to him?..NO
If she is chewing a bone, does he sit down next to her and try to hug her?..NO

Pretty simple I thought...good with kids? who knows, I say no, because it is not the type of dog that I would recommend that someone who does not deal with working type dogs should try move into a house with small children,especially with the way she was brought up, moving into a house with GF and kids was not in the plan when the dog was purchased, it came a year later.

I agree most people would not raise the dog in the fashion that I did, which is fine, I had my reasons, and it is my dog...

Is the dog social, I think so....Is she gonna give her toys to strangers? NO.

Is she going to comply to any idiots commands, not likely. Is she going to tolerate a stranger giving her a correction on a pinch collar, most likely not without some form of bonding period....

is it a dog that makes a good pet for a family of idiots, NO. The dog has some possession issues, could they be worked out? SURE...do I have an interest in working through them? not really. They are managed, pretty simply..No one but me tries to forcibly take something out of her mouth, or if she is laying on it, possibly guarding it...

She has been around small children a lot in controlled settings and will allow a small child to pet her, would I turn her loose with small kids? NO...

Will she be able to be handled safely by people that are working dog savvy without incident, yes. the breeder has taken her for weeks at a time, I assume without incident. My Decoy has taken her two times while I went on vacation, once for a week, once for 5 days...

My decoy just watched the dog, had her in and out of a crate without incident, had dog out around his family, and took dog with him out several places...he did not have any problems with the dog and he takes bites from her all the time, in a SCH setting, and in the suit. He has never threatened the dog or put any pain on her, dog might act differently with him if he did, who knows, might not...he never had to correct the dog when he had her, she did try to refuse to go in crate for him initially, froze up, gave him the look, and growled, but he has been handling working type dogs for 20 yrs, so of course dog went into crate without incident...

There was one other person that got tagged by the dog, someone who picked the dog up for me from a far away location and was driving her back for me. I think the situation was that he was attempting to open the crate and put some water in there, and the dog tried to come out of crate, and he had to stuff her back in. Dog tagged him, did NOT attack him. Pretty typical, nothing extreme I think...

GF and 16 yr old now are able to take dog in and out, without incident, they let her carry a tug around on a walk to keep her occupied, the dog minds them well enough, will drop toy outside on the porch when told before coming in the house, goes back in crate for them. I still do not let the 12 yr old handle the dog by himself, trying to be smart. And I do have a small amount of worry that something bad could possibly happen if the dog is out somewhere, without me present, handling her..Which I think is pretty normal anxiety...

Dog. IS able to be out in the house without incident, as long as the cat does not try to jump on her back, I think we will be fine....

We are talking about "working" animals here on this board, and not pet animals, correct? I thought we were.


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## maggie fraser

Joby, FFS!!!!!!!!! You sometimes have something interesting to say , and maybe I would read more if you wrote less!!!! Quit with this computer abuse will ya :razz: Running outa internet ink this end.


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## Chris Jones II

I repsond to things that stick in my brain as I go through the posts. I don't know who I am responding to since I haven't been around long enough to really recognize names or styles of responding. I only recognize Joby for now since he has responded most and contributed quite a lot these conversations. I'm just responding to what I see.

Yes, I am trying to learn more about working dogs but honestly there seems to be a lot in common between some working dogs and unstable pets so I want to know if there is a big difference besides things like having a good bite on a suit etc. The few dogs I've known that were biters were not overly fearful or anything. They were just house pets or farm dogs that would bite when uncomfortable in a situation to get out of the situation and they sound an awful lot like some working dogs I have seen discussed here and other places. 

Someone said something to the effect that dogs that bite people with one owner won't bite people with another owner and this happens all the time. What was the difference? As far as I have seen here some would choke the dog for biting. Is that the kind of thing that needs to be done to a dog to gain control and the kind of thing the second kind of owner would have to do to control such a dog? If so, I'm probably not capable of that.


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## Jennifer Michelson

My 3 working line dogs (1 didnt work, 2 do) have been/are fine with kids. My first one didnt have the benefit of being raised with kids, yet had an amazing patience with them. I trusted him less with adults. My dad, who thinks he can make any dog do what ever he wants it to do, even realized that messing with this dog was not a good idea. But kids could do what they wanted. 

My current SAR dog, Griffin, is fairly aloof to people (who dont have a toy-gotta sniff to ascertain that first), but is patient beyond words to children, small animals and babies. I trust him implicitly and love that I can. He is high drive and actually very pushy and assertive with his 'victims'. Yet he will not take a toy from a child-even 'his' ball dangling around by the string.

My 18 month old is my most affectionate gsd. He will do a quick lean in to be pet with most people, will lick kids in the face, but then after the greeting, ignore them. I assume he would mow down toddlers like my others did--not mean, just fast and clumsy.

None of my guys ever took a prey bite on a running kid, but have definitely knocked over kids doing a fly-by. My kids had to learn that that was a part of having a big dog--glad they are taller than the dogs now! I do not allow anyone to play with my dogs, especially children--dont need the liability of a caught finger being called a bite. I generally put the dogs up when my kids have friends over. 

I am not interested in having a dog I cannot have as a part of my family, but I am not interested in having these kinds of dogs as just pets either. My dogs are picked to be social and have strong nerves plus the high drive. But I dont need them to bite. All three would probably do well in the biting venues, but it is not something I have done with them on purpose! Maybe the puppy since he searches for cadaver and not live victims.....


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