# What is your working dogs reward of choice ?? ..



## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Or what works best as your reward? Say as a motivator for a jump or easy search?

We've all heard of 'ball' drive 'food' drive etc. I know many of these rewards can be used in many different contexts and scenarios. I know many dogs that are OCD over balls and the like while others have a specific toy like a deflated basket ball or rubber chicken that is their #1. 

What is your dog's reward of choice? How do you use it best as a tool to further the progression in your training? If you can give some examples that would be helpful.


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## Mike Di Rago (Jan 9, 2009)

Geoff,
Kong on a rope


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## Paul Cipparone (Feb 13, 2011)

Hi Geoff, long time man.If i'm doing bitework & the dog ids doing well i reward quickly with another bite if the teaching the "out" was good .If teaching an OB exercise then i use a 8 inch leather or jute tug.When teaching tracking , & the exercise is going well , i reward with an easier track, with tug find.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Kong or tug are pretty equal with my older GSD. 

Slight edge for the Kong with the younger one. 

The Kong, in my use isn't on a rope but tossed for reward. 

In addition to rewards I still use both to work drive.

I think it was in a Flinks video where he showed how to let the dog decide it's preference. 

Pretty much just hold both up in front of the dog and it will tell you. 

My older guy has a hard time moving with his progressively weakening rear legs so all he has to do is bring it to me and give it to me and out on command for a quick "yes" and return.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Hi Geoff

interesting topic....i've done a lot of experimenting these last few years and my methods have kinda 'morphed' accordingly

my short answer : i mix rewards all the time and change the value up and down a LOT. I'm DEF not a ball only/tug only/food only guy anymore, and have started using a lot more physical praise (in various degrees) than i used to use

i use rewards very differently for a new dog i'm working with, as compared to my own dog ... or a dog that is already trained and used to certain reward schedules

- are you more interested in what types are used, or the methodology for when they are used ?
- for competition, rehab work, or basic companionship ?
- working with your own or training other dogs ?

tried to write a short version, but it got long very fast 
assumed you weren't interested in getting into the weeds


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Just looking at what people use in general for general obedience you know more simple things. 

I tend to use a kong on a rope or ball on a rope myself for a lot of things and food as a secondary jackpot reward. I guess it depends on the level of excitement or energy I need from the dog. I have used tugs with less success but have had good success with a flat 2 handled leather made by gappay. 

My dogs do have kongs in the house for toys and they don't generally have ropes as I'm afraid of ingestion. Nothing builds jaw strength like a a XL black kong being squeezed over and over to build that kung fu grip  .. Having them free in the house doesn't affect the 'wow' factor when I use the kong on a rope in training it's still a 'jackpot' reward. As the dog's reward is not just the 'Toy' but the interaction with me and the toy. 

Rick and Bob I agree that the dog will tell you what it prefers. Though my thought is it shouldn't really matter to an extent what you use as a reward as long as it interactive with the handler. In reality dogs are opportunistic prey animals. Dogs are not that complicated everything revolves around their hierarchy of life needs and wants. So my thoughts are we can use these as trainers to shape and reinforce behaviours through simple play and using the toy of choice to motivate. 

I do love my kongs Mike. Great investment I've had some of them for going on 10 years! Yes Paul I do that FR guard reinforcing technique with my toys as it creates super quick outs. As “There should be joy in the chase, zest in the pursuit.” That type of engagement creates that joy and builds that bond with the dog for sure.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

I tend to use food during the imprinting or shaping stages. Later it could be food, ball, tug, or a good body rub.


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## Mike Di Rago (Jan 9, 2009)

Geoff,
The big advantage I find of the Kong on a rope is that you can have the dog chase it like a ball being thrown,and that the rope adds distance to the throws,but mainly that the whole process continues into a game of tug of war when the dog returns.Prey drive doesn't only include chaseing but also the shaking and killing of the prey.
I agree with Sarah about the imprinting phase and the use of food in lurring.Pups tend to be calmer with food than with toys and therefore learn a new routine easier if it is shown to them in a calm setting.
JMO
Mike


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

We all get off on COCO LOCOS.

A added perk is they go right to sleep after training.😀


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Poor Lee, 

Every time he posts something about Coco Locos, all I can think is he's crazy for Coco Puffs......


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## Jim OBrien (Aug 9, 2015)

I always suggest using a toy that will bring the correct amount of drive for that particular task. Some dogs will do great using a ball with a rope for obedience or drug work. You may find that a dog that loves a tug will perform better if his reward involves a better "fight". I let the dog tell me what particular toys bring out the drives I am looking for. Don't just give him a Kong because you like a Kong. Make sure he likes the Kong. Remember, his reward is his "pay". Find his $100 bill!!!


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Everyone seems to focus on the kongs and balls on ropes. My question is for those that do is this how you start puppies? Or what is the *age* of the puppies (or dogs) that are on ball/king for primary reward?


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Good analogy Jim. 

I always wondered about the hierarchy of what makes one reward better for a particular dog than another. Say a Kong on a rope vs a Ball on a similar rope. They are both similar and you can work them the same way, either by throwing as a jackpot or using interactively. My dogs enjoy getting paid with either, so I don't see much of a preference. But I've seen other dogs truly just focused to the point of OCD for a ball or a frisbee that it actually can interfere with training progression. So that isn't good either.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Sarah Platts said:


> Everyone seems to focus on the kongs and balls on ropes. My question is for those that do is this how you start puppies? Or what is the *age* of the puppies (or dogs) that are on ball/king for primary reward?


I think mostly people focus on kongs or balls on a rope because pretty well every Petsmart/PetCo/MomandPop pet store has these for the most part in stock. These stores won't have leather, jute or french linen tugs bite wedges et al, so if your dog wants these and your toy gets forgotten somewhere you are SOL until you order online. 

My current male was 6-7-8 months after the teething was done when I really started to create the excitement around a toy. Not always a ball/kong on a rope either. As this was the time we were engaging in more serious (but still fun) bite work training, and were laying foundation for recalls and outs at this time. I don't know if the protocol for a PSD or search dog is, but that was the foundation I was doing for Ringsport.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

if you occasionally give the toy to the dog and let them possess it by chewing on it or guarding it, i think it will usually make it a higher value reward...if it is used as a reward too.

i don't do that since i often have to work with dogs that have gotten too possessive ... to the point of being a problem //lol//


i've said it a few times in the past but will repeat it again if there are any new readers following this thread:
- i'm pretty much a food/tug guy
- i use tugs i can stuff, so i can make it as hard (blast hose) or as soft (hard felt) as i want depending on the dog
.... balls have always had drawbacks for me
- hard to place when tossed
- hard to keep interactive (i ALWAYS want some interaction when rewarding)
- hard to present as a target
.... so for me balls will mostly be a retrieve item for dogs that place a high value on retrieving

with that said i will NEVER use a toy for a dog i am starting out with. for me it has been more indicative of basic prey drive rather than motivation to learn and work
- i want to see how far the dog will get with simple verbal and physical praise
- and that will also tell me how well they can be handled

for food, i only use dried raw chicken or raw beef (no additives). my dehydrator gets a LOT of use and the treats last a long time in any season 
- i use em for all dogs at all levels at various times. i don't "start with treats and graduate to toys" like others might; but that's just me

overuse of a high value reward may look good for awhile, but i think it is a loser in the long run when it comes to balancing drive and control


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

forgot to mention (again) that i also stuff a (cylindrical) kong or two in a tug for a nice hard, nearly indestructible, interactive grip toy

...apologies if i sound like a broken record


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Any kind of tug works well for him. The ball on a rope is good for me because I can throw and/or tug or do both. Generally if he finds the target source I throw the ball and he brings it back to me and starts a tug session - maybe with some throws. If he just works hard and finds nothing we end up with just throwing it.

I do tend to use food for obedience and a toy at the end of the session.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Have any of you seen any working dogs that prefer food over a toy? I haven't seen one yet. As a secondary reward sure but I still have seen food work that well for a jackpot reward.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

I've seen alot of these in SAR but I think your question is geared more to the sport ring type working dog or maybe the more mouth-y breeds (mals, DS, GSDs, etc)


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Not really Sarah. I've seen hunting labs that are more motivated for a toy than food. Everybody assumes that labs are the more food driven but then can be equally toy driven too IMO. So yeah if you've seen and have examples of dogs being more food driven I'd love to hear about them. Don't need to be pointy eared or not. Just examples of a work dog being more driven for a particular reward with descriptions and or examples.


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## Mike Di Rago (Jan 9, 2009)

Arson detection dog (Lab) primary reward was food.Best detection dog I have seen.He had been trained by Conn. state police
It was alot of work for the handler as all food eaten by this dog was a reward,so all meals 7/7 were rewards,no freebees and no exceptions for days off etc.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re : "Arson detection dog (Lab) primary reward was food.Best detection dog I have seen.He had been trained by Conn. state police
It was alot of work for the handler as all food eaten by this dog was a reward,so all meals 7/7 were rewards,no freebees and no exceptions for days off etc."

not working dog related, but i've used this exact same approach with multiple aggressive dog rehabs.
- it might seem to be a pita compared to serving meals in a bowl, but it gets pretty easy fairly quick 
- from the outside looking in, it might appear to be simply a constant feeding session vice training, but i don't see it that way

food can be very high value reward when it's never given freely and a dog who is always a bit hungry can be a very motivated dog.
- never had one lose weight //lol//


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## Misty Wegner (May 22, 2015)

My SAR girl is a food reward preferred dog.. And she is dedicated to her job.. I know of about 4 others that prefer food and are certified (several times over) in different disciplines (HRD, area, trail etc).. Some are pointy eared some are floppy


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re: toy rewards (primarily kongs or balls) 
-- what i am curious about is how the toy is first presented to the dog.
to me, that might have a lot to do with how motivated it becomes to work for it

my thought process :
- i assume most toys are tossed (dynamic), rather than handed (static) to the dog.
- that implies (to me) that prey drive is also involved in the "value" department, to chase and get it, rather than just the toy itself being high value

so, has anyone used a toy for reward that did not involve any tossing of iit when the dog was being conditioned to the toy as a reward ?

the only comparison i can make to food is that i have also sometimes tossed the treat, and it often hypes the dog more than just delivering it by hand


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

I think you are correct Rick re: the prey being the activation. Though my own male I don't have to reanimate the toy I can just give him the 'mark' for reward and he is satisfied by shoving it into his own mouth. No throw required. Though yeah the movement is always exciting for the dog. 

I've approached food in quite a different way 1. I'm a RAW feeder so it is hard to feed the dog through little meals that would get enough reps in for meaningful training. So I use kibble in OB but it is something different enough to pay the dog that the dog doesn't feel cheated. 

I've only seen a few dogs trained through food only. Even IPO dogs revering blinds for food was something I've seen up close. It worked but wouldn't have been my method of choice, maybe I just didn't understand the method well enough but was interesting to see.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

My early SAR training on my older GSD was all Kong on a rope. 

I personally never found any advantage "with this particular dog" over tossing or tugging. He enjoyed it all. 

I believe hand held articles such as the Kong on a rope or a tug can develop plenty of drive in most dogs. It's up to the handler/trainer to work the article properly. 

How many of us have seen someone say their dog has no drive only to see the dog come alive when the presentation is done correctly. 

It's up to us to figure out what creates the high dollar ticket for the individual dog.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

rick smith said:


> so, has anyone used a toy for reward that did not involve any tossing of iit when the dog was being conditioned to the toy as a reward ?


 
One of my trailing/cadaver dogs was initially started as a FEMA dog. He was crazy for coco-puffs ball fixated. Very OCD. I even tried to desensitize him by having balls all over the house but no go. He would take a ball and just chew, chew, chew. When you started a problem, he would smell it on you and just stand there barking and totally fixated on the ball he smelled on you. I then tried leaving the ball back in the car and use as a reward when all done but that was a problem as he would take off at the end and make a dash for the car and go all anal on the vehicle trying to get to the ball. That's when I realized that dogs being 'ball-crazy' isn't necessarily a good thing. People who take dogs and advertise them as potential detection or SAR dogs using 'high ball drive' as one of the defining parameters I take with a grain of salt. It's not all it's cracked up to be and 'high ball drive' can be a PITA to work around when it's made to much of a good thing. I ended up moving this dog to food reward and phased out the ball. Eventually (years later) he eased up enough that I could hand him the ball at the end and he would just tuck it up in his cheek and carry it around.


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## Larry Krohn (Nov 18, 2010)

I prefer to use many different options. I want my dogs to be crazy over everything I use to reward

Luca after a long bike ride. I don't use many toys at this stage with him but when I do I like to give him options and let him make some choices.

http://youtu.be/JQGdhEfskQI


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Larry Krohn said:


> I prefer to use many different options. I want my dogs to be crazy over everything I use to reward
> 
> Luca after a long bike ride. I don't use many toys at this stage with him but when I do I like to give him options and let him make some choices.
> 
> http://youtu.be/JQGdhEfskQI



Nice job! 

Luca showed his preference with all three on the ground but that didn't interfere with working with what he was offered. 

Pretty much the same reaction for each one when "you" offered them.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

VERY nice clip Larry
always love watching Luca 

i rarely request videos (haha), but if you could ever get the time, i would REALLY love to see you with Luca in a crowded place to see how you work with him in that kind of environment since as you know i am frequently in a (crowded) concrete jungle with almost every dog i work with

what i am particularly interested in is to see how you balance the drive with non-reactivity around strangers
- meaning : Luca interacting and "doing stuff" with you, but neutral to the busy environment around him
1. in a static position (chilling out at a coffee shop outside table) with the flow of lookie loos passing by who want to meet and pet him
2. and dynamic ...weaving through people coming and going in close proximity to him
...the more interaction the better 
- it might look like a boring walk in the park to some but i will FOR SURE appreciate the subtle stuff you are doing when handling him

i've seen your vids that you have posted when he is around kids, so i know he is stable
- just would LOVE to see you working him in the above situations to 'pick your mind' from a distance //lol//

looks like your place is fairly 'rural', so if it's a hassle to find this kind of environment....not a problem at all

but aside from my selfish interests, i'm sure it would help others and give them a goal to strive for

.... i'm sure there are lurkers here who wish they had the same amount of control with their dog but stay away from crowds because they don't //lol//


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## Larry Krohn (Nov 18, 2010)

rick smith said:


> VERY nice clip Larry
> always love watching Luca
> 
> i rarely request videos (haha), but if you could ever get the time, i would REALLY love to see you with Luca in a crowded place to see how you work with him in that kind of environment since as you know i am frequently in a (crowded) concrete jungle with almost every dog i work with
> ...


Thanks Rick and no doubt. I will do that. He's pretty awesome in those situations. My clients are based in the nashville area so we get to do those things a lot, which are the most important to me anyway. Never thought anyone would want to see that but I'll do it for sure


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Nice job!
> 
> Luca showed his preference with all three on the ground but that didn't interfere with working with what he was offered.
> 
> Pretty much the same reaction for each one when "you" offered them.


Yeah Bob I'd have to say Larry's dog reward of choice is interacting with Larry. Though I think that is sometimes more of a breed thing that Malinois in particular seem to gravitate too. My dogs do that .. well unless there is a person in a bite suit close. \\/ Then my work is cut out for me as a trainer.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Geoff Empey said:


> Yeah Bob I'd have to say Larry's dog reward of choice is interacting with Larry. Though I think that is sometimes more of a breed thing that Malinois in particular seem to gravitate too. My dogs do that .. well unless there is a person in a bite suit close. \\/ Then my work is cut out for me as a trainer.



I agree with that Geoff but the dog still showed a preference for the ball. That was my reason for mentioning it.

When I select for a new pup I've always placed a natural retrieve at or near the top. 

"To me" that shows the dog has the desire to interact with the handler. 

It's not necessarily a breed specific behavior outside the retriever breeds but I do look for it in any pup.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

When exercising your dog. Do you use the same toy that you use for reward? I sometimes use a chuck-it or ball/kong on a rope for exercise. In your opinion does that cheapen the value of the reward when used for specific tasks? Or is it separated mentally for the dog?


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## Karin Sable (Aug 31, 2014)

First... sorry for starting a similar thread. So ignore that one please.

My question there was how much should you emphasize prey drive over play/prey drive (handler focus) in a working dog. And then particularly a detection/SAR dog. 

I read a bunch of Don Yarnall's stuff and someone near me in SAR argues tapping into as much pure prey drive (by definition not handler focused) in the reward (chase, kill and shred) will result in fewer false alerts as the dog is working independently in the hunt. A dog rewarded with play that is handler focused, the tug, is more likely to be checking in with the handler and trying to figure out what he/she wants hence potentially offering an alert to get the handler to play. 

So some of these folks are using the Yarnall rag system (for lack of a better description) to throw, allow the chase and kill shake and then allow the dog to shred it as reward. 

Now that I have thought about it, it does seem that a lot of different rewards tap into this prey drive. But do you think some can be overly handler centered?

BTW... I use a Chuck-It squirrel as a SAR reward. I can fold it and have a wicked game of tug, I can throw it and (unfortunately and not intended) my dog likes to possess it and shred it).

P.S. I have no idea how well known Don Yarnall is. I was assuming he was. Deceased now but he was the K9 training officer for the LAPD for many many years it is my understanding.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

I use food primarily and that's probably the most handler oriented reward system I can think of. I don't think of 'play' as a separate drive. It's prey in a non lethal manner. Personally, I would hate to keep having to buy toys for him to shred but if it works, it works. 

I knew one handler who had this flying squirrel toy that they could stuff food into the middle (it closed with Velcro) and they let the dog 'kill that' and the dog would then open up the middle and eat out the food. 

If I had a dog into shredding things, my dog would be getting cheap rolled up hand towels instead of expensive toys.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I've always been told that a reward toy should only be used as a reward.

That's what I've always done but since my older GSD is now enjoying doing whatever he wants he now owns his kong and has it 24/7.

With that I've never seen any sort of diminished attraction to his kong.

If anything he's become more possessive with it but still wants me in his games.

It also doesn't stop him from chasing any stick or ball I might toss for him.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i often tend to minimalize a canine's brain capacity //lol//

but with that said, i DO think canines know the difference between a prey animal and an inanimate object they will "catch and shred", etc
- if you disagree, one way that would seem easy to test would be to toss a live mouse vs whatever it is currently catching and shredding
- i'll bet you see a BIG difference 

this debate seems to be trending towards an analysis of abstract 'drive' concepts vice applications of training techniques

the 'extent' a canine is working for the handler is a reasonable debate, but i just can't understand the application of the catch/kill/eat def of 'drive' for a domestic dog working with a human in a training scenario

then again, maybe i'm taking the comments too literally //lol//


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

I don't think of 'play' as a different drive either. Chase, catch, kill and shred/dissect. I don't really see in my dogs the will to shred and dissect the play part. The play for them is the catch and kill, the kill is the interacting with the handler (tugging etc) in my opinion. That is what I've spent years building is that bond that play with my dog brings up his want to complete a task, to get to that 'play'. 

Shredding and dissecting is something that a dog would do on it's own with no interaction with the handler, to me has limited value in building a working dog's will to work. It's something that I would not build into my training and something I discourage especially in sport bite work. i.e I never let a pup or a young dog go to ground with a bite item, as to me that doesn't reinforce what I'd want for an end result either. In practice it pisses me off when new handlers let their dogs go to ground with my brand new comp sleeve and let them go ape crap on it, that's a sure fire way to get *not* invited back to my club! I be bringin' out the hook from the gong show! LOL! 

Any item can be built into a reward so whether it is a kong/ball on a rope, a man in a bite suit you can use it to build upon. In my experience the progression and tempo of the work is the motivator for the dog. To be more engaging to the dog to have it work with you, you have to be more interesting and have more value than anything else. So building value for the play with the reward toy is where I put my effort.


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## Karin Sable (Aug 31, 2014)

So maybe I can phrase this another way just to see...

When you are trying to instill commitment to the scent that would mean a detection dog might disobey the handler to remain on scent or in alert would it be helpful to use a different reward system than just handler focused play?

I do get the importance of the bond and will to work for the handler but it seems that there is this element of independence that could be negatively impacted and that element is important for detection/sar work. I think it would be important for bite work as well but liability being what it is it may be that this element of independence is best toned down to be on the safe side.

I do know of someone that is training a SAR dog with the Yarnall prey drive concepts and putting no obedience on a malinois that I hear is 14 months old. I would love to be a fly on the wall at those trainings as there is no evidence that this person is a good handler even at the basic level, no ability to read a dog. 

And... I should add that I'm really a beginner at all of this. Don't want to pretend that I'm an expert, just curious.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Karin Sable said:


> When you are trying to instill commitment to the scent that would mean a detection dog might disobey the handler to remain on scent or in alert would it be helpful to use a different reward system than just handler focused play?
> 
> I do get the importance of the bond and will to work for the handler but it seems that there is this element of independence that could be negatively impacted and that element is important for detection/sar work. I think it would be important for bite work as well but liability being what it is it may be that this element of independence is best toned down to be on the safe side.


You are correct to think that the dog 'could' be to focused on the reward and the handler itself. I did mention that earlier in the thread. I've seen dogs that are overly OCD over the ball or a frisbee that yes it impacts the progression of the training. These dogs were made that way by their handlers for the most part. Same thing as putting way to much OB on a dog. I see that all the time with usually 'pro' trainers that get a genetically amazing Mali or Dutch and then stifle it until it is a robot that can't do nothing but heel perfectly and won't leave the handler to play with a decoy let alone work a scent problem. 

To me it's all about balance and being clear with what you want from the animal from the beginning for what constitutes a reward in the training. I use many different ways to deliver reward i.e ball poppers, someone else delivering it or hidden rewards and may not even use the same toy all the time or use food instead. I don't train SAR but have a pretty good grasp of how it is trained. So yes you can build the want to work with your reward but it is about completing the work not the reward that makes it a reward. If you set it up in your foundational training that way. 

Could be a whole other thread though.


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## Meg O'Donovan (Aug 20, 2012)

Karin Sable said:


> I do know of someone that is training a SAR dog with the Yarnall prey drive concepts and putting no obedience on a malinois that I hear is 14 months old.


Don't we also need to consider the safety of the vulnerable whom the SAR dog is finding? Those found people may act erratically, like prey if they are scared or out of their gourds. So is not having any OB/control on the dog going to be good/safe for those "victims"? (assuming the SAR dog is worked offleash). Or even for the volunteer quarry in the training stages?


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

What some determine is OB or control can be different than another. I tend to not focus on OB until the dog is well started in trailing or their detection training. But that does not mean I have an out of control wild child. 

Some feel that OB means 100% total control but that level of control tends to diminish the independence and decision making that, in my opinion, make a good sar dog. 

I'm with Geoff on the below



Geoff Empey said:


> You are correct to think that the dog 'could' be to focused on the reward and the handler itself. I did mention that earlier in the thread. I've seen dogs that are overly OCD over the ball or a frisbee that yes it impacts the progression of the training. These dogs were made that way by their handlers for the most part. Same thing as putting way to much OB on a dog. I see that all the time with usually 'pro' trainers that get a genetically amazing Mali or Dutch and then stifle it until it is a robot that can't do nothing but heel perfectly and won't leave the handler to play with a decoy let alone work a scent problem.
> 
> To me it's all about balance and being clear with what you want from the animal from the beginning for what constitutes a reward in the training. I use many different ways to deliver reward i.e ball poppers, someone else delivering it or hidden rewards and may not even use the same toy all the time or use food instead. I don't train SAR but have a pretty good grasp of how it is trained. So yes you can build the want to work with your reward but it is about completing the work not the reward that makes it a reward. If you set it up in your foundational training that way.


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## Karin Sable (Aug 31, 2014)

Yeah and the balance is in part determined by the handler's skill. With my dutchie, being my first working dog, I probably put more obedience on him that a more skilled SAR handler might have. The person I was speaking of above,choosing no obedience, is really a horrible handler and likely won't make it to certification. But, that person is an outlier... I hope.

I guess where I was going with the prey drive/ rag thing is to query whether I could get a bit of refinement on Tygo's performance. But after talking about it and mulling it over, I think my reward system works and he clearly loves it. I think the low hanging fruit on improving performance is me and cleaning up my work and handling my dog better. (Big sigh!)

I'll keep working.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Karin Sable said:


> Yeah and the balance is in part determined by the handler's skill. With my dutchie, being my first working dog, I probably put more obedience on him that a more skilled SAR handler might have. The person I was speaking of above,choosing no obedience, is really a horrible handler and likely won't make it to certification. But, that person is an outlier... I hope.
> 
> I guess where I was going with the prey drive/ rag thing is to query whether I could get a bit of refinement on Tygo's performance. But after talking about it and mulling it over, I think my reward system works and he clearly loves it. I think the low hanging fruit on improving performance is me and cleaning up my work and handling my dog better. (Big sigh!)
> 
> I'll keep working.



I do believe that HOW the early obedience is done has a huge effect on the dog as to being in to much control for SAR.

My first SAR dog (Australian Shepherd) was also my first attempt at motivational training. At 7 months when I got her she hardly new her own name and her first owner was pretty hard on her yet she turned out to be very obedient within a month or so with no real needy issues.

My first GSD SAR dog has never had a physical correction to this day ( almost 12 yrs old) other then a couple of scruff shakes from me when working on very early house manners.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Karin Sable said:


> Yeah and the balance is in part determined by the handler's skill. With my dutchie, being my first working dog, I probably put more obedience on him that a more skilled SAR handler might have. The person I was speaking of above,choosing no obedience, is really a horrible handler and likely won't make it to certification. But, that person is an outlier... I hope.
> 
> I guess where I was going with the prey drive/ rag thing is to query whether I could get a bit of refinement on Tygo's performance. But after talking about it and mulling it over, I think my reward system works and he clearly loves it. I think the low hanging fruit on improving performance is me and cleaning up my work and handling my dog better. (Big sigh!)
> 
> I'll keep working.


Karin, 

We all keep working. I made ALOT of mistakes with my first dog. I still make mistakes today (and I'm on dog #7) but I try to make new mistakes and not repeat old ones.

I think you will do just fine. The best handlers I know are the ones who question what they do. Not to be confused with insecurity but more a question of "how can I do this better?" As for the other handler, I would let her continue on to see if her method works. Who knows even a bad handler can teach you something. Mostly how not to do something.


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