# Obedience without Conflict



## Nathen Danforth (Feb 12, 2009)

Okay got a new puppy and this is my first time "raising" a working dog. Both my current adult mal and the mal I ran as an officer came to me with a good foundation as adults. 

So I purchased Building Drive and focus and Obedience without conflict. Besides the annoying narration in Building Drive and Focus I enjoyed the video and felt it gave me something to hit the ground running with.

OB without Conflict on the other hand pissed me off. Don't get me wrong the theory makes great sense and the man knows what he is doing and I think I'd like to use his methods but I felt cheated. Nearly everything in the video is covered in his book. And it only covered some of the "theory" of his ways not how to implement it. I did not feel that someone could watch the video and then go work with a dog with what was learned. 

So I guess my questions are....Does this just reflect how ignorant and simple minded I am and I should keep watching till I "get" it? Does it all come together with the 2nd video "The Game"? Am I asking too much of a video (I promise I'm not asking to be spoon fed)?

I don't plan on trying to train my dogs solely by watching videos but I'd like to do some training myself due to odd schedules. I don't want to flop around with methods especially since the best trainer we have locally apprenticed with Ivan.

Thanks 
Nate


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I don't have the book, but have the videos. I'd imagine the videos don't cover anything that's not in the book. But, a lot can be said for what a video can demonstrate that a book can not. If you understand the book, and how to implement it's excercises, that's an advantage a novice probably just "wouldn't get" from reading.


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

If I remember correctly--you do need to watch 'the game'. I borrowed both tapes from a friend and remember thinking that the first one was a bit annoying, but being happy after seeing the game.

Have fun!!


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

OB w/o conflict...sounds warm and fuzzy to me. If I took the same application into the classroom, could I have rules without consequences?[-X =;


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Jennifer Michelson said:


> If I remember correctly--you do need to watch 'the game'. I borrowed both tapes from a friend and remember thinking that the first one was a bit annoying, but being happy after seeing the game.
> 
> Have fun!!


 
Yes, you need to view "The Game"


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> OB w/o conflict...sounds warm and fuzzy to me. If I took the same application into the classroom, could I have rules without consequences?[-X =;


 
Conflict and consequences are two completely different things. Lack of consequence can create conflict. :?


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Building drive and focus create conflict when teaching the out, they want you to flank the dog to out, I would not do that, obedience without conflict video 1 is just theory, you need video 2 to learn how to apply the theory, well worth the price, Ivan is the master of all masters, and his records shows it. (-:


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## Nathen Danforth (Feb 12, 2009)

Thanks guys I guess that's what I needed to hear to set me at ease with spending the money on the 2nd video.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Our club's training is similar to "The game". 
I like that DVD!


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Us too Bob, I love the method.


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

Us three! Love the game. 

Once you get it, (which of course takes a bit of finesse--which I am still working on!!! lol) you can establish clear communication with your dog, and he learns how to learn, making teaching fun.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Till at some point, you realize that you need to teach your dog what a correction is. Then you are in trouble. LOL


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Jerry Lyda said:


> Us too Bob, I love the method.


Yes, it's just another tool in the toolbox, it is not new, nor was it invented by one person. Everyone I know has always used this or a similar method for building drive, depending on what works for them and the dog they are working with at the time.


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## Nathen Danforth (Feb 12, 2009)

Jeff, I haven't used the method yet, obviously. But having watched the video and read his book it seems that corrections are part of the system and that through the clear communication gained with the system the corrections are more effective due to the fact the dog knows exactly what it did wrong? Again I have not used it so am just talking out of my arse. Have you known people using the method that got into trouble with corrections?


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

susan tuck said:


> Yes, it's just another tool in the toolbox, it is not new, nor was it invented by one person. Everyone I know has always used this or a similar method for building drive, depending on what works for them and the dog they are working with at the time.


Like Susan said, "Another tool in the tool box." The problem lies in the tool use and not the tool. Reinventing the wheel is something everyone wants to do. The problem lies not in the wheel, but how the rubber is to hit the road. No one thing fixes all dogs!!!


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

A correction with this method is , no reward. They figure this out very quick. No bite until the dog is correct.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Yeah, me. LOL

Ivan is a skinny quick dude. This, and the fact that he can read a dog well is what makes this work for him so well. I have a dog that I did not do "the game" per se, as he would just go after me after the second miss.

I would have like to had more about extending the bridge between the mark and the behavior, what he corrects for, and what he does not correct for, and when he starts them.

Then there is the other thing. LOL Good competition guys tend to get the same kind of dog to work. That goes for all of them, not just Ivan.

So a lot of this is all fine and dandy, and if you have access to Ivan, then go to his seminars after you have watched the videos a million times and ask the questions.

I like the videos, and am not making fun of them. Can you imagine trying to remember all the things you do subconciously ??? You would have to have many rewrites.

It is just something that you need to figure how much access you can have to Ivan's seminars, and clubs that do that style.


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## Nathen Danforth (Feb 12, 2009)

"Can you imagine trying to remember all the things you do subconciously ??? You would have to have many rewrites."

Wow very true. And applies to many people that are good at anything. How do you teach/articulate something that you just "Do" especially in something that is impossible to have a "cookie cutter" application.

Thanks for all the advice and replies guys. Good thing is I won't be relying on the tapes alone. I've got a good trainer locally...no club though..: ( And the pup is young so I have time. We are just doing scent pads, socialization, and letting him be a puppy. He's a mistake anyway that I'm trying to do something good with. I F*** up and let my mal get in with my Akita Bitch who unknown to me was in heat. He's a cute pup with lots of drive. We'll see how he turns out.

at 9.5 weeks
http://www.workingdogforum.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=1425&c=12

at 7 weeks
http://www.workingdogforum.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=1424&c=12


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Cute pup. It's nice to know I'm not the only one who F***s up. That "certain kind of dog" for a particular training style is true for sure, but also sometimes a helper doesn't "get" it either, even if the handler does. Just saying, what type of dog you're instructor's more familiar with can play a factor.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

that could be a VERY interesting cross for training --might be very good!! or VERY bone-headed, lol


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I'm not sure in what way you mean that, but "say for example"... We had one female that was just wasn't getting anywhere in her bitework, and I continuously said from day one, that the helper was being waaay to soft with her. She needed more pressure, just to get in the mood. She was a very hard dog, and would respond better to it, without the "usual" steps taken for introducing young dogs to bitework via the helpers normal protocol. Several months later, it was like a revelation for the helper as he finally figured her out, because my inexperienced opinion didn't matter initially.

Another helper once told me my boy way too young, he'll never engage a total stranger with the sleeve. I was pretty irritated that the point was even argued on. He was wrong. If dogs are that predictable to you, your experience is probably too narrow. I don't care how long you've been working dogs and how much you know, and it could be a lot, but there's sometimes some things the owner is going to understand particular to their own dog. Things that the helper can't assess in the immediate moment, or outside the norm of dogs that they're usually exposed to.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Daryl stated;

" If dogs are that predictable to you, your experience is probably too narrow. I don't care how long you've been working dogs and how much you know, and it could be a lot, "

I like that line .


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## Andrew Rowley (Nov 3, 2008)

I have to say i felt rather cheated after watching the first dvd then realising the second one would be more beneficial, lets face it their not cheap especially in the UK with shipping. The theory though was spot on.
As for building drive and focus, learnt allot, but preffered prep your dog for the helper.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Jeff: Then there is the other thing. LOL Good competition guys tend to get the same kind of dog to work. That goes for all of them, not just Ivan.

This is what I figured. I went to a Ronny van den Bergh "Seminar" - it was actually a "3-day training". Ronny is a terrific chap but I also noticed a similarity in his dogs. 

A good few years ago there were seminars in the true meaning of the word, i.e. the dog would be explained and his learning powers, etc. behaviour was discussed at length. I listened to a German chap, Kreipl and was impressed. He didn't show his dog. 

Elmar Mannes (Leipheimer Moor)came for a weekend - brilliant - he had no dog with him but ctricial comments!

Fritz Biehler rounded the lot off, also no dog, no plaitudes, but gee, down to earth - pity my dog was already "finished". This man is "one helluva good dude".

They are all good - I have Ivan's CDs but haven't finished watching them yet. 

I think the idea is to observe, think about what you're doing but realise that what the "stars" do won't work 1:1 for you and your dog. Watch their videos but work out your own training plan.

People tend to copy them down to the "T", even mimicking the Eh, eh = no like one of Ivan's assistnats did. They don't realise that the dog can pick up false notes like a music teacher](*,)


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## Michaela Sutton (May 11, 2009)

Andrew Rowley said:


> I have to say i felt rather cheated after watching the first dvd then realising the second one would be more beneficial, lets face it their not cheap especially in the UK with shipping. The theory though was spot on.
> As for building drive and focus, learnt allot, but preffered prep your dog for the helper.


 
Do you think someone could just buy the second DVD then? I've been looking at buying them, but with the cost I'd rather only buy what I need!

Thanks!


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

The 2nd dvd is much better, actually shows you how to train the behavior. The 1st dvd is informative but that's about it


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

I believe you would most likely be lost just buying the second DVD and not the first. Too much theroy relates from the first to the second DVD. Think of going to 101 anything class after missing the first two weeks. Good luck! Granted the first DVD is mostly boring theroy stuff, but without it....................


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## Rick Mattox (Dec 8, 2008)

I know this has been here a while. I just re-read this thread. I'm wondering how many of you have figured out that Ivan does correct his dogs? The "GAME" is the begining of the training. After the dogs know the rules and their responsibilities they are corrected for not doing it. Funny how so many people can watch Ivan's videos again and again and not notice the prong collars on the dogs nor the TRITRONICS sign on the fence at his place. They are there for more than just looks.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Rick Mattox said:


> I know this has been here a while. I just re-read this thread. I'm wondering how many of you have figured out that Ivan does correct his dogs? The "GAME" is the begining of the training. After the dogs know the rules and their responsibilities they are corrected for not doing it. Funny how so many people can watch Ivan's videos again and again and not notice the prong collars on the dogs nor the TRITRONICS sign on the fence at his place. They are there for more than just looks.


I think *everyone* understands this don't they? I mean I figured this out and I don't even do protection sports.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

It's common knowledge as far as I know.


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## Nathen Danforth (Feb 12, 2009)

Yep that was always crystal clear to me too, it's ob without conflict not ob without correction....


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## Jenn Schoonbrood (Oct 31, 2008)

Ivan (and Michael Ellis, too, for that matter) will both freely discuss their opinions on the proper use of correction (including e-collars) if asked. This isn't news.

People do jump to compulsion too quickly, generally speaking. The theories taught in "The Game" give many owners the ability to teach their dogs step by step without resorting to correction until the very end proofing phases. And even then, only for those most challenging of behaviours.


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## Rick Mattox (Dec 8, 2008)

I LOVE how all of a sudden comments like: 

"I think *everyone* understands this don't they? I mean I figured this out and I don't even do protection sports." "always crystal clear to me too" "common knowledge"

come out. How many times, not only on this thread, have we heard that it's purely possitive, no compulsion?

I just spent a little time with people who swear that Ivan only "corrects" his dogs by witholding reward. So it's a little less than common knowledge to some. Just thought I'd point out the prongs and E-collars for some of them.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Rick Mattox said:


> I just spent a little time with people who swear that Ivan only "corrects" his dogs by witholding reward. So it's a little less than common knowledge to some. Just thought I'd point out the prongs and E-collars for some of them.


And some people would drink the purple kool-aid if Ivan told them to. I also heard that Ivan taught the motion exercises to a dog by just making eye contact. 

No Doubt that Ivan is the best trainer of our time. And the most influential. But this human worshiping that follows him has always been a weird thing for me. you know no one has yet to reproduce what Ivan is doing. I think the one thing he has got, is time. He has more time invested than most of us to master the art of dog training.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

James Downey said:


> And some people would drink the purple kool-aid if Ivan told them to. I also heard that Ivan taught the motion exercises to a dog by just making eye contact.
> 
> No Doubt that Ivan is the best trainer of our time. And the most influential. But this human worshiping that follows him has always been a weird thing for me. you know no one has yet to reproduce what Ivan is doing. I think the one thing he has got, is time. He has more time invested than most of us to master the art of dog training.



I'd agree that Ivan is the most influential in the protection sport training arena. He isn't even in the top 10 for general
Obedience or Agility. I wouldn't agree that he is the best sport trainer of our time. I think Mike Ellis is a better trainer.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Rick Mattox said:


> I LOVE how all of a sudden comments like:
> 
> "I think *everyone* understands this don't they? I mean I figured this out and I don't even do protection sports." "always crystal clear to me too" "common knowledge"
> 
> ...


I think there is some confusion about what is going on in this thread. 


Jerry Lyda said:


> A correction with this method is , no reward. They figure this out very quick. No bite until the dog is correct.


I am going to go out on a limb here and say that Jerry knows that Ivan uses corrections, as do most of the people that posted in this thread. 
Jeff O. certainly knows that Ivan uses corrections, and is bringing up some points about what might happen if you never correct until way later in your training.

I thought people in this thread were talking about "the game" and the learning of markers and no reward markers and how they can be useful in training and reducing conflict. I did not take it as they beleive that there are no corrections ever in this man's training.

Your experience has shown you that people jump to conclusions about the type of training they see. Fair enough. If people want to see a trainer that uses no corrections in his system they will have to ask Bob Scott to make a video


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> I'd agree that Ivan is the most influential in the protection sport training arena. He isn't even in the top 10 for general
> Obedience or Agility. I wouldn't agree that he is the best sport trainer of our time. I think Mike Ellis is a better trainer.


I was specifically refering to IPO/Sch when talking about Ivan. I could not tell you one name from OB or Agility. I am not to familiar with Mike Ellis, I have seen some youtube stuff. But It's hard for me to gauge his training since Mike does not trial. A lot of people do seem to like him, maybe one day, when he is town throwing a seminar I will get a spot.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

"But It's hard for me to gauge his training since Mike does not trial."

He does trial in Mondioring and does very well.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Kyle Sprag said:


> "But It's hard for me to gauge his training since Mike does not trial."
> 
> He does trial in Mondioring and does very well.


 .In trial, I meant IPO. That was that whole thing I said about " I was Spefically talking about IPO in reference to Ivan"...So it would be hard to compare who is better...at 2 different sports. And it's totally subjective.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Back to the conversation....

I have made an obeservation that seems to me may or may not be correct. I have gone to a few seminars. Attended various clubs. I have noticed, that some people no matter how many seminars they go to, training days they attend, dogs they go through...they just seem to never get any better. Every dog they own seems to have the same problems. They will negate thier club members advice...even ones having success. But someone with more accomplishments will say the exact same thing. And it is if that person is hearing it for the first time. 

The rest of the clubs dogs are progressing...thier dog, they are still trying to fix a problem they caused a year ago, and the training program is always the same. Yet they will not believe the people whom are moving foward.

They may ask for help, and actually take the advice, try it for a few sessions...see some progress. Then go right back to the same ol' shit. But is if they are always searching for a new way...they find it...and then they give up on it failry quick.
I have noticed this with a few trainers. Has anyone else seen this?

To bring this back around. I have also noticed these people attend the most seminars. buy the most books, videos...Forever trying to get the magic bullet that is going to get them on the right track.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

James Downey said:


> .In trial, I meant IPO. That was that whole thing I said about " I was Spefically talking about IPO in reference to Ivan"...So it would be hard to compare who is better...at 2 different sports. And it's totally subjective.


in an earlier post you stated "No Doubt that Ivan is the best trainer of our time." Even if you just considered IPO/Schutzhund. Helmut Raiser has won the premium Schutzhund event the BSP three times over 25+ years.
Raisers videos (Pressing im Schutzdienst, Kontrol, Aristo etc.) are more popular worldwide. I'd put Mario Van der Slyppe (sp) above Ivan. Mike Ellis is a better trainer/coach then Ivan
IMHO. I'm a Dobermann person and the facts are, most of the top international Schutzhund/IPO competitors have GSD's. Ivan has done great with Malinois but he hasn't been
nearly as successful with his new GSD Apache.

I'm all for giving Ivan his due as a successful competitor and his training DVD's are great, but he is hardly the "best trainer of our time" unless you're 20 years old


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

James Downey said:


> No Doubt that Ivan is the best trainer of our time. And the most influential. But this human worshiping that follows him has always been a weird thing for me. you know no one has yet to reproduce what Ivan is doing. I think the one thing he has got, is time. He has more time invested than most of us to master the art of dog training.


I have friends that have lived, trained and had business with Ivan and they all remarked how little time he spends training dogs but the time spent is so productive its mind boggling.
I might be starting to get the hang of this shit I dont think my current dog is any smarter than the others but the clarity and the training relationship we have is a hell of a lot better I'm having a blast training this dog I first started training with Ivan 2000 no way I can make it happen like him. But but I have learned to make it work my way not as productive & clean but still not to shabby. 
I have a hodgepodge I have learned from but the basic foundation I use I learned from Ivan and its simply clarity.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> in an earlier post you stated "No Doubt that Ivan is the best trainer of our time." Even if you just considered IPO/Schutzhund. Helmut Raiser has won the premium Schutzhund event the BSP three times over 25+ years.
> Raisers videos (Pressing im Schutzdienst, Kontrol, Aristo etc.) are more popular worldwide. I'd put Mario Van der Slyppe (sp) above Ivan. Mike Ellis is a better trainer/coach then Ivan
> IMHO. I'm a Dobermann person and the facts are, most of the top international Schutzhund/IPO competitors have GSD's. Ivan has done great with Malinois but he hasn't been
> nearly as successful with his new GSD Apache.
> ...


I'm not going argue your point of who is the better trainer but you mention Apache. What is Apache and what is your gauge of comparison.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Then you have to add that you are discussing the greatest trainer of our time, and are only mentioning Sch people, with sad little gay sch dogs. LOL

Seriously, there are too many followers, and without taking from any of the above mentioned, there are about a hundred out there that are better and as good. 

Look at the dog that some of those NVBK guys are taking on the field. All of them would eat Ivan and Mike and Mario and me and you and those three guys down the road like little bitches. LOL

Bart Bellon is no slouch, and he is the easiest to name.

So seriously, all the guys above are good trainers, but lets face it, I want to see them out there with a cannon doing well, not the little .22 pistols they go on the field with. =D>=D>=D>=D>

And **** you if you seriously think the dogs they are running are much more than punks.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Mike Scheiber said:


> I'm not going argue your point of who is the better trainer but you mention Apache. What is Apache and what is your gauge of comparison.


Apache do Amper (GSD male)
Placed 59th at last years WUSV Championship
http://www.wusv2008.org/results1.htm


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## Rick Mattox (Dec 8, 2008)

A lot of the confussion about the corrections, I think, comes in because Ivan doesn't show it on the disc. I think that's just because in this politically correct, tree hugging era we live in you just can't show it. At least not if you are going to mass produce it for the general public to see, and not get into hot water with the Animal Rights wacko's.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Rick Mattox said:


> A lot of the confussion about the corrections, I think, comes in because Ivan doesn't show it on the disc. I think that's just because in this politically correct, tree hugging era we live in you just can't show it. At least not if you are going to mass produce it for the general public to see, and not get into hot water with the Animal Rights wacko's.


Duno, I like to think people arn't so Dumb as to think they are going to be a Master Working dog trainer from a couple of DVDs......:roll:


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## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

Kyle Sprag said:


> Duno, I like to think people arn't so Dumb as to think they are going to be a Master Working dog trainer from a couple of DVDs......:roll:


I watched those videos, you mean I'm not a master trainer yet?

what videos do I watch for that :roll:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Mike Lauer said:


> I watched those videos, you mean I'm not a master trainer yet?
> 
> what videos do I watch for that



No no. You are now. Kyle's teasing you.


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## Rick Mattox (Dec 8, 2008)

Yes Kyle I'd like to think that as well. Unfortunately after running into so many that say the same thing and can't be convinced that Ivan doesn't mean NEVER correct the dog other than witholding reward I'm loosing faith.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Apache do Amper (GSD male)
> Placed 59th at last years WUSV Championship
> http://www.wusv2008.org/results1.htm


I am aware of the dog Apache I'm asking you if you know this dog and what it is aside of his name and his placing at the WUSV


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I'm thinking that if "those people" have dogs with Ivan's name behind it's training the big money will get even bigger. 
Make sense Mike? ;-)
That's the only reason I could figure for it. I saw them at the WUSV World. Less then I expected for a dog trained by Ivan. Course it was a............................... :-# :-# :-$


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> I'm thinking that if "those people" have dogs with Ivan's name behind it's training the big money will get even bigger.
> Make sense Mike? ;-)


He is well on the way he has gone from 2 or 3 litters a year to many litters and selling more started dogs.
His body is beat to shit and he tired of seminars.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

:-o GSD litters? Didn't know that but it DOES make sense. Go where the big money is at! :lol:


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Mike Scheiber said:


> I am aware of the dog Apache I'm asking you if you know this dog and what it is aside of his name and his placing at the WUSV



He's a showline GSD who has trouble clearing the jumps. IMHO the only reason Ivan is even bothering with him is he
wants to compete in the GSD only events. Unfortunately there is a BIG difference between his Malinois and this GSD.
If he is going to be competitive with a GSD he needs a working line one.


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

I think Ivan is a genius. Most people don't want to talk theory. "The Game" provides an easy, effective way to build the foundation to train your dog whether you're retraining an improperly trained dog or starting a puppy. The seminars give you a more personalized version--you work on any problems you might have & you learn how to work "The Game" more effectively. Ivan also shows you how & when to properly correct your dog at the seminars. "The Game" gives you the benefit of Ivan's years of experience in training dogs--it's more than just a beginning.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Sue Miller said:


> I think Ivan is a genius. Most people don't want to talk theory. "The Game" provides an easy, effective way to build the foundation to train your dog whether you're retraining an improperly trained dog or starting a puppy. The seminars give you a more personalized version--you work on any problems you might have & you learn how to work "The Game" more effectively. Ivan also shows you how & when to properly correct your dog at the seminars. "The Game" gives you the benefit of Ivan's years of experience in training dogs--it's more than just a beginning.


Hi Sue,

I agree that Ivan is as close to a dog training genius as there is. You apparently have had better luck with his seminars. I've been to 6-7 over the years and the first ones were great, but the last two have been very disappointing.
Questions were answered with "read the book" or "get the DVD" and he just acted like he was going through the motions. The last planned local seminar was canceled when the costs and demands were too high. I really like his DVD's and the http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/www.trainperview.com website


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> in an earlier post you stated "No Doubt that Ivan is the best trainer of our time." Even if you just considered IPO/Schutzhund. Helmut Raiser has won the premium Schutzhund event the BSP three times over 25+ years.
> Raisers videos (Pressing im Schutzdienst, Kontrol, Aristo etc.) are more popular worldwide. I'd put Mario Van der Slyppe (sp) above Ivan. Mike Ellis is a better trainer/coach then Ivan
> IMHO. I'm a Dobermann person and the facts are, most of the top international Schutzhund/IPO competitors have GSD's. Ivan has done great with Malinois but he hasn't been
> nearly as successful with his new GSD Apache.
> ...


Subjective as it is. I would not consider, 25 years...in the realm of our time....unless your 50.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> He's a showline GSD who has trouble clearing the jumps. IMHO the only reason Ivan is even bothering with him is he
> wants to compete in the GSD only events. Unfortunately there is a BIG difference between his Malinois and this GSD.
> If he is going to be competitive with a GSD he needs a working line one.


So taking a showline dog and getting selected for a world team is not a notworthy accomplishment?


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> He's a showline GSD who has trouble clearing the jumps. IMHO the only reason Ivan is even bothering with him is he
> wants to compete in the GSD only events. Unfortunately there is a BIG difference between his Malinois and this GSD.
> If he is going to be competitive with a GSD he needs a working line one.


Your right there is a big difference between the Malinois and GSD. In years past at the FCI worlds..(which I believe is what everyone is shooting for) the majority of dogs have been Malinois. Just look at the top 10 dogs.

2008- 8 out of 10
2007 6 out 0f 10
2006 7 out of 10
2005 9 out of 10
2004 No worlds
2003 8 out of 10
2002 8 out of 10
2001 4 out of 10
2000 8 out of 10

If it's true the majority of serious competetiors are training GSDs....There not being very competetive. And the minority is ruling.


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

James Downey said:


> Your right there is a big difference between the Malinois and GSD. In years past at the FCI worlds..(which I believe is what everyone is shooting for) the majority of dogs have been Malinois. Just look at the top 10 dogs.


I'm not shooting for any world level competition. But if I were, I'd be shooting for the WUSV before the FCI. Of course, I wouldn't turn it down  

Laura


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

James Downey said:


> So taking a showline dog and getting selected for a world team is not a notworthy accomplishment?


Do you know how Ivan was selected for the team? What were the dog's qualifying accomplishments?


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Christopher Smith said:


> Do you know how Ivan was selected for the team? What were the dog's qualifying accomplishments?


No, I do not. So what are they?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

James Downey said:


> So taking a showline dog and getting selected for a world team is not a notworthy accomplishment?


James,

Where did I say that?
Ivan is a very good trainer of mainly Schutzhund and mainly Malinois. He is NOT IMHO "the best trainer of our time"


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

*Re: Irrelevant*



James Downey said:


> Your right there is a big difference between the Malinois and GSD. In years past at the FCI worlds..(which I believe is what everyone is shooting for) the majority of dogs have been Malinois. Just look at the top 10 dogs.
> 
> 2008- 8 out of 10
> 2007 6 out 0f 10
> ...


>the results of the FCI Worlds is irrelevant


My original post: RE: Apache

He's a showline GSD who has trouble clearing the jumps. IMHO the only reason Ivan is even bothering with him is HE WANTS TO COMPETE IN THE GSD ONLY EVENTS. Unfortunately there is a BIG difference between his Malinois and this GSD.
If he is going to be competitive with a GSD he needs a working line one.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

if I remember right there is a Story around why Ivan is working Apache.

I will say that I don't think he is the kinda dog Ivan particularly likes.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Got to be MONEY.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Got to be MONEY.


I don't think it was money per sey, maybe a Bet or Challenge though


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> James,
> 
> Where did I say that?
> Ivan is a very good trainer of mainly Schutzhund and mainly Malinois. He is NOT IMHO "the best trainer of our time"


It wasn't a qoute, it was a question.

And you have stated your stance...We all read it. It does not change my stance.


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

I think when you know how to communicate with and motivate a dog you can train any dog. Every dog will work for their own benefit--either to gain a reward (can be anything) or avoid a correction. When you have a dog with a ton of drive, that dog is a dream to train. When you have a semi-clunky dog--like a show-line GSD--that dog is much harder to train & the results will never equal a dog bred for sport. Ivan works lots of malinois because there are lots of malinois competing--but I've seen him do wonders with lots of other breeds--including GSDs.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Sue Miller said:


> I think when you know how to communicate with and motivate a dog you can train any dog. Every dog will work for their own benefit--either to gain a reward (can be anything) or avoid a correction. When you have a dog with a ton of drive, that dog is a dream to train. When you have a semi-clunky dog--like a show-line GSD--that dog is much harder to train & the results will never equal a dog bred for sport. Ivan works lots of malinois because there are lots of malinois competing--but I've seen him do wonders with lots of other breeds--including GSDs.


 
Very true, remember that seminar in Phoenix 5 years ago.

Ivan worked his AZZ off with Mals, GSD, Bulldogs, Cane Corso, our Mixes ect.....

Everyone got a lot out of it IMO.


I also think Ivan gets a bad rap sometimes, I have a whole new respect for him after spending quite a bit of time with him at events where he was just there to Support his other half, hang out, talk about dogs and training and Help if needed.

The guy does have a very good sense of Humor as well.


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

I think that when he sees that you have potential he puts the pressure on & sometimes gives the wrong impression. I've left some seminars angry because I was feeling sensitive. But, if you want to compete you have to be able to take it just like the guys


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

James Downey said:


> So taking a showline dog and getting selected for a world team is not a notworthy accomplishment?


Note that he was selected from his home country and not the USA.
Often times a dual registered citizen will go with his/her best chances to compete. If you need to be in the top ten to be selected for the world, you go where you have the best chances of being selected in the top ten. We see that all the time in the Olimpics.
Example 
There were only 1-2 competitors from certain countries at the WUSV and it was obvious they were way out of their class. In order to make the "world team" they had to have been at the top of what was competing in their particular countries. That doesn't mean that they were in the same league. Just selected from their individual countries. 
Just maybe Ivan figured his chances with this dog wouldn't have been so great if he tried for top ten in the USA. JMHO!
There is huge money in show line dogs. Having one that was bred and/or trained by Ivan Balabanov would be another feather in the caps of some show line folks. Many who live just to collect feathers. 
Again this is all JMHO! :grin:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

My girlfriend and I were talking about that. Top showlines go went for 100-125,000 dolllars.

No wonder we get out-voted on everything. : )

When Soda PoP has pups, they will be 500 bucks at the most. 100 to 125,000 is just nuts to pay for a dog. I am astounded that people will pay 10,000 for a dog with half ass training.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Show line and "Executive protection dogs"! ](*,)](*,)](*,)
We're doing something wrong! :lol: :lol:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I talked to a guy that was charging 50,000 more or less for his dogs.

Not only was he getting it, he had an interesting point.

He said that for a long time he was training for himself, and doing what he enjoyed doing, but was dirt poor, and always living paycheck to paycheck.

Then he started training dogs and selling them for a rediculous price in his mind. He trained 4 dogs, and set up a website.

They were gone in two months, and he made 200 large before taxes.

Not long after, the demand was more than he could supply. He started going overseas, and getting dogs and selling them for even more. he got a staff to help him, and he payed them well.

Bottom line, he has no regrets, as the dogs pretty much always work out, and he is living comfortably, not all jammed up all the time.

Kinda crazy, but the guy seemed ok with what he was turning out, and he didn't sound like he was convincing himself, unlike a lot of the others I have talked to.


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