# ...Bad Training Director!



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Without giving names and for the benefit of folks who are new to Schutzhund or PPD training, give us the dirt on your deal with bad training directorsor helpers.

My dirt starts off with a strong working lines GS puppy. This thing was hard! The TD thought it would be "great" to show how civil it was and put full defense on a 8 month old puppy. I'm talking about using a whip snapped at the feet and standing right in front of it. This was done at 2 feet away. Most other animals would have run for the hills or pissed all over themselves in SHOCK! This pup held its ground, barked, and did well. As for me, I should have had my head checked for lose wiring!!!! This has been many years ago and the club is no longer around. I could just kick myself. We've all been there!

When you are training with someone who fails to work your dog in the proper manner, at the proper age, and the ability of the animal...*STOP!* Don't let them screw up a good thing by showing the world how tough your dog is. Thank goodness there are folks out there who know better and don't mind putting light to the eyes of the blind or green in training!!! 

Today, I make it a practice of being extra careful how I work young dogs and allow the lessons of my past to educate me and not haunt me. I remember the issues and the problems. You can never change what you have done in the past, you can however make it a point to not reproduce those errors for the now and the future! =;


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

how about bringing a bear head to training and making the helper stand in the blind and yell GRRRR?


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## Chris Jones (Jan 26, 2008)

That's some scary stuff!!!

It's hardest for newbies because they come in and everybody is telling them something different and they already have no idea what they are doing. Not to mention they feel kind of stupid in the first place like I did and still do a little. Plus the fact that every dog is different and it takes a considerable amount of "hands on" time to be able to read each individual for what he is.


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## Betty Mathena (Apr 19, 2006)

OMG Mike.

Same trainer in all instances?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I've seen just about all the bs! One of the best was a TD gut kicking a dog to the point of it puking, for no other reason but to "Show him who's boss". What amazes me is how people keep lining up for the Koolaid! :evil:


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Why Mike, I had no idea! [-(

This side of you I like! Sounds like we have seen some of the same "Master Trainers" in our day...You put the spice to this one and then some, keep going after you get your train of thought back!


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## Chris Wild (Jan 30, 2008)

We've had a few bad experiences with helpers over the years, most of which have centered around the helper having his own agenda and doing his own thing with the dog, not following our instructions, even arguing with us and blatantly doing things we told him not to do. Easily solved by not working with that helper again.

One lesson I definitely learned the hard way, and would consider abusive training, was with regards to a seminar. Way back when I first started SchH, had been involved for less than a year and had a 6 month old puppy, I had the opportunity to attend a seminar by a "top trainer" from Germany. At one of the training sessions during that seminar, he was working with me and my 6 month old pup on building focus using a toy. He asked for me to hand him the leash and the tug so he could demonstrate what I was supposed to do, and being a novice totally star-struck with this "top trainer" I handed them over. 

He got my pup on the tug, then asked for an out. The pup didn't out. So he put a pinch collar on the pup, and asked for an out again. Again pup didn't out. He popped the pup on the pinch collar. Pup still didn't out. He popped again, harder. Pup outed, but tried to rebite the tug. He popped the pinch collar even harder. Now pup got pissed, and nailed his hand. He then proceeded to step to the end of the leash, and helicoptor my pup through the air by the pinch collar. There's my 6 month old pup, 3-4 feet off the ground for 2 complete circles. He let the pup down, and the pup, now really, really pissed, tried to bite him. So he helicoptored the pup again, this time for 3 or 4 revolutions before letting my, now totally freaked out and gasping for air, puppy back on the ground. At which point I snatched the leash away, and ran back to the car. I was completely in shock and very upset. I'd never seen anything like that.

Fortunately, and amazingly, the pup got over it with no long term effects. It took me a lot longer to recover. But I certainly learned the lesson very early in my SchH career to never hand my leash over to someone else unless I know and trust them very well. And to resist the urge to fall under the spell of the trainer with the European accent, big reputation, and even bigger paycheck. While I'll probably never forgive myself for letting that happen to my pup, at the time I was too new and too lacking confidence and knowledge to even think about standing up to a top trainer. I guess I learned that lesson early in my SchH career and I'd never make that mistake again. Even more upsetting, now that I look back on it, was that even the experienced members in my club didn't step up and stop this, or even openly express an opinion against it. Showing that even the experienced folks can be star struck.

One bad TD example I can give that didn't happen to me, but to a friend/puppy customer. She was a complete novice to SchH but had done the best she could educating herself beforehand via books/videos/internet and also started attending club training before her pup was born to be better prepared. She started taking the pup to training as soon as she got the pup at 8 weeks old and for the first several weeks things went well. They showed her how to start tracking with scent boxes, did rag work, and otherwise told her to let the pup be a pup and not do any obedience. When the pup was 3-4 months old, the TD tried to buy the pup. Pup's owner wasn't selling. He continued to pester her about it, but she stood her ground. As the pup grew, she asked to be shown how to start doing some basic obedience for food. The TD refused to help her, and told her not to. Well, in the meantime she's also trying to have this pup be a house dog and family companion at home with her 3 children. Something the pup was perfectly capable of, but of course needed training to accomplish. The dog was getting increasingly out of control at home and at training, but again the TD absolutely refused to help her even start obedience. So she got the Balabanov videos and talked to other people getting ideas on how to start motivational obedience herself, but being completely new to this she really needed some hands-on mentorship. By the time the pup was 6 or 7 months old, she was practically begging the TD for help. He still refused, and forbid any other club members from helping her as well.... oh, but by the way, he'd still really, really like to buy the puppy. 

This went on until the pup was 9 months old. Then she showed up at training one day and the TD said now it was time to start teaching the pup obedience, so hand the pup over to him and he'd show her how to start. Grateful to finally get some help, she gladly handed the pup over and watched as the TD put a pinch collar on the pup, and immediately started "teaching her to heel" by yanking her all over using the pinch collar. Before long the pup decided she'd had enough of that, and she bit the TD. At which point he flew into a fury, hung and kicked the dog, then handed her back to her (now hysterically sobbing owner), telling the owner that it was a dangerous and dominant dog, prone to aggression problems, who was unwilling to accept leadership, would never be able to be controlled by a novice, and would endanger her children. So she really needed to sell the pup to someone who could handle it (him), before it attacked someone.

Thank God the owner had enough sense to never visit that SchH club again.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

OK, being that they haven't figured out the duct tape yet, I have a little time. How about the TD's that go the other way, and freak about any sort of correction????

A big thing out there right now is the decoys doing their own thing, regardless of how the dog is responding. I REALLY hate when decoys decide to do what they want and not what you have asked, OR they do not know what you are talking about, and just do something.

I cannot tell you how many people I heard from on the east coast that have problems with former "asr" decoys. I was hearing this from a lot of different people. Pretty funny.

Happily, the only pain in my ass at training is this Maze character, and she doesn't show that often.     I liked how she posted vids without permission. It is good to be able to train again. It had been a while since I was able to do much of anything.

I think that owners should carry paintball guns, and just open fire when the helper is making a mess.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

CO2 BB guns hurt more.....


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## Lisa Clark (Feb 14, 2008)

Closed minds, huge egos where they are not warranted and the fear of losing their income if their members, even their experienced members, go to a seminar or want to train some place else once in awhile. Then there are those who purposely try to ruin dogs because they are not ones they imported/bred OR were bred by people they don't like. SchH at times does attract some of the worst.


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## Dan Long (Jan 10, 2008)

Sounds like some of you have had nightmares! 

If I was a newbie or not- if some Sch guru guy had helicoptered my puppy, he'd have been eating his meals with a straw for a long time. There is no place for that in any training involving a puppy, and I don't care if you are King of the Dog World, you do that to my dog and you'll be in trouble.


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## Chris Wild (Jan 30, 2008)

Dan Long said:


> If I was a newbie or not- if some Sch guru guy had helicoptered my puppy, he'd have been eating his meals with a straw for a long time. There is no place for that in any training involving a puppy, and I don't care if you are King of the Dog World, you do that to my dog and you'll be in trouble.


If my husband had been attending the seminar that day and seen it, I've no doubt that's what would have happened!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Another one! A TD/helper (not mine) that enjoys showing people how easy it is to run their dogs.


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## Chris Jones (Jan 26, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Another one! A TD/helper (not mine) that enjoys showing people how easy it is to run their dogs.


That's just wrong.


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## Alex Corral (Jul 10, 2007)

Shit. That is some pretty eff'd up stuff. I've never seen or heard anything remotely similar to that in our club. I will have to buy our TD a beer next time.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Jeff, I know all the former ASR decoys, could you be more specific. Or was this just a shot at someone because you are just being you? Do you listen and believe everything you hear? If so, you are old enough to know better. The former ASR decoys, all but one , was at the APPDA seminar/trial. If you knew them like I do this foul stuff would never come out of your mouth. You have to get something stired up all the time. This forum has being doing just fine without this kind of junk talk. I quess you're back.

By the way, ASR trials only went as far as Georgia. Not east coast. Maybe you should have asked them to be more specific and found out the truth before you said any of this he said she said crap.


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## Matt Hammond (Apr 11, 2006)

_I cannot tell you how many people I heard from on the east coast that have problems with former "asr" decoys. I was hearing this from a lot of different people. Pretty funny.
_

Most of the folks that had beef with ASR decoys are the same one that had dogs that would not bite a tug. Then get mad at us for working the dog in the trial. In every ASR trial I worked the judges (Scott W and Jay M) where very good about stopping the action before the dog shut down. We did this to save the dog. But coming from Jeff, I doubt you have names to back up your claims........


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## Eric Read (Aug 14, 2006)

I'm not a moderator, but since the very first post did say not to mention any names, I think it would be a good idea to keep it that way. 

We can all pretty much agree that things that people have seen in this thread are things to avoid in training. Knowing what to avoid, rather than "who" to avoid is much more valuable IMO. It seems no matter what most people think of "you", there is always somebody that has something bad to say.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Eric, no bad trainers names are being mentioned. Those two are judges from ASR and good ones at that. Matt stated that they were very good at stopping the action before the dog shut down. Eric, that's a good thing and by Matt stating that, is a compliment to the judges. Maybe you had missread what he was saying. Decoys have to continue with the same amount of pressure on each dog until stopped by the judge.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

The problem I have with folks who are a club TD or who claim to be a "Master Trainer" is a simple-complex one. 

Some think they know what is best for your dog. Some will tell you that they have 15, 18, or 25 years of decoying experience. They will show you one portfolio after another, and photos for the "good ole days."
Many are strictly one dimensional K-9 workers. They can't catch dogs, they can't read K-9 behaviors, and they don't know how to talk with people. They do a great job of talking at you and about you.
They work all dogs in the same manner, reguardless of age,ability, owner wishes.
"If it wasn't for ME, you wouldn't have a titiled dog!"
And lastly, the greatest line of all...Show me someone in "this group" who can do it better.
Now the club members cower in the corner because the TD has just adjusted the membership, when it is the membership who should tell the TD to take a hike. Too many young dogs are ruined for life because of the egos found with some trainers. There are also GREAT trainers out there who know dogs, people, and problem-solving skills. These are the ones no one hears about because they take a low profile.

I for one do not have a problem calling out the trash of the K-9 earth and conversly, promotong good-great people. There MUST be a balance to this topic. I started it and I'm adding my 2 cents worth today! Smile you poor ones and let folks bold up and replace you for the better training days ahead!


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## Will Kline (Jan 10, 2008)

I am Howard...Hear me roar!  

In all seriousness, I think he has a great point. I know that I would have trouble trying to know what was best for my dog at different ages and would hope that *any* TD wouldn't screw him up on purpose or by accident, but the truth is there are people out there that will for a mulititude of reasons or circumstances and unfortunately newer people may not know it. Its why I read these posts very carefully so that I may benefit from others experiences and ideas. I feel free to ask a question and review responses and then move forward with what I feel is best for my dog. Thanks to all those that help make those decisions.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Will Kline said:


> I am Howard...Hear me roar!


Yipes! I thought it was more of a cough, poodle bark, loss of placement, clearing the throat! Yeah that's the ticket!;-)


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