# Taking a Step Back



## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

So I hate to admit it BUT Iv come to accept that I need to take my training program back to square one. 

What I mean by this is go back to simple engagement and drive building exercises NO more obedience. 

As a young pup I started her like any other dog on basic food work, luring etc. Also did basic drive building with tug and ball.

As she aged a bit I began adding commands to the point where now all the basic stuff she knows and preforms ok though it was slow going.. Were I really ran into ongoing issues was the focussed heel and other stuff that requires consistent engagement from the dog. Stuff that came easy the last time around with the last couple dogs for her seemed to take forever. 
I supplemented this by luring heavily, and using the leash to give directional ques which moved us along albeit slowly.

So I made excuses:
She is a late bloomer
Her focus and engagement will magiclly improve when she is older
She has low food drive, when i move to rewarding with the ball or tug her drive will come up
Its her blood lines (not so sporty)
She is independent not a suck(this one is true..lol)
Ill worry about it later etc etc

REALITY: Have tried starving her to bring up food drive and increase intensity and eagerness in obedience. Only got a tad more focus. Have already tried moving some basic OB to prey rewards, once I start asking for behaviors the drive decreases noticibly and she becomes easily distracted.

Was at IPO today had put her on short rations so OB today would be good. Made up a bait bag of cheese, chicken liver etc. (Any dog would have been mobbing me for this stuff)

She preformed all the exercises I asked of her and actually did fairly well considering her usual level of focus. Again the begining heeling stuff wasnt the greatest as the focus was mediocre at best but overall fairly decent I thought.

A member of the club was talking to me later and told me that I had a dog who is indifferent too the whole obedience thing. 

In short I have created a reactive dog that is used to being asked and helped into doing everything (luring, leash pressure etc). Wheras the picture I should have is a dog thats begging me to do stuff, demanding what I have and offering free behaviors. 
This has led to low intensity in my obedience and a slow frustrating learning process. Naturally me being bull headed I just put my head down and kept pushing forward which is akin to wading through quick sand and about as fun.

Bottom line is she checks out quickly and has been doing so since she was 10 weeks. To get anything out of her I would make myself super interesting, lots of voice interaction, feeding , redirecting from distraction with the leash and then luring heavily and guiding her into doing what I was asking. She just doesnt give a crap. 

So time to go back to square one. 
My Plan:
-No obedience besides the basics I require for manners and safety
-Training sessions will consist of me walking around with her on a leash for short periods of time and rewarding overt attempts to interact be it eye contact or physical attempts to interact with me or what I have (this will be in lieu of meals)
If the above leads to more consistent focus I will try to do some minimal luring again and do some simple commands but will not use leash pressure..if she checks out Ill put her up.

-More prey building, on the post and some Bernhard Flinks style stuff


A classic lesson of what works with some dogs doesnt work with others..Hubris is a annoying..8)


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Before you start throwing the programme on its ass and tossing out ideas answer a few questions first.

How is she at home when not training. How is her demeanor when she wants something at home like a toy or treat. How is her interaction outside the training field and does she look for contact with you then?

Is this a lack of interest and focus on the field only or is it general and present everywhere?

How does she do under pressure, good or not so good.


Also, what is your intent for this dog, serious sports or just fun?

I read your post and all I can think of is this. Stop ASKING your dog what you want from it and start telling it instead. Stop looking for easy outs to explain her behaviour when you are mostly the one giving her the room to display that behaviour to begin with.....


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

My first thought is i wonder if the dog has the drive to start with that you are use to or want...and if it does then my protocol for this type of dog would be NILIF and ask for known behaviours and if the dog doesnt respond i dont reward(food-dinner) i stop luring on known behaviours(unless he is getting stuck then i stop) i still lure on new exercises but quickly get away from that and ask the command and get them to be proactive i start making the dog do the work i do less it does more thats the rules,it really takes very little time to get a dog pushing to work wanting to do stuff and higher levels of engagement and gives the dog the power to control his resources by his efforts


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Before you start throwing the programme on its ass and tossing out ideas answer a few questions first.
> 
> How is she at home when not training. How is her demeanor when she wants something at home like a toy or treat. How is her interaction outside the training field and does she look for contact with you then?
> 
> ...


She is rambunctious but on the whole fairly obedient actually with stuff I dont compromise on. Its not flashy competition points obedience though. If she wants what I have, she will briefly engage with me but but if I keep it from her will go do something else. She is more persistent for a toy then food.

Pressure? She can handle a level 10 correction and forgets it in about 5 seconds.

The intent for the dog is IPO (I am competative) so I would like to say serious and home protection.

She is fairly independent and has always been that way. She is not a velcro dog by any stretch, I have had those. She actually tends to do better at the club then at home, still only seems to care about bitework.

When she loses focus I either give her a pop on the leash or lure her. She then focuses on me but you can tell its because she has too not out of any real intensity.

I can train her to do whatever I want, the issue is making it look powerful and intense. That is what we are lacking and if I add pressure to the training she complies but is clearly not enjoying herself which ruins the final picture, not to mention she is young for that.

Brad, she has plenty of drive for prey objects (posted a video of her barking for the tug), more then plenty of dogs at the club. Less for food but enough that she should be able to learn the behaviors. 
My thought is I missed the engagement part with this dog and fell into the habit of engaging her instead of her engaging me. I agree with you on NILIF. 
She just doesnt have an eagerness for obedience Im thinking if I can turn the tables on her and make her start working to engage ME this picture may change.


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## David Winners (Apr 4, 2012)

I don't compete in sports, but for what it's worth (probably nothing) here is how I see it. I'm posting this more as a question to those with real experience, and certainly not as expert training advice. I think it's all pertinent to the OP.

It sounds like you have what Michael Ellis refers to as a "reactive dog" instead of an "active" dog. 

I think you just need to teach her to push you for the reward. It sounds like tug is her favorite. I would run her through a few positions and mark / reward each good rep with the tug, then just go dead. See if she will push you by offering behaviors, barking or engaging you physically. I would reward anything at this point. Teach her that she drives the reward. Repeat until she is really pushing you.

I would also back off on long OB chains and up her reward schedule with longer tug breaks in between chains. I would become unpredictable by changing up the sequence of events in training, by adding spins or other fun behaviors to your routines, by going to new places for tug sessions with OB sprinkled in.


Now Alice, whom I have utmost respect for, advised getting more serious with the dog to make the dog more serious about it's job. I think this could go a couple of different ways, depending on the temperament of the dog. It could either make the dog more serious in it's work, resulting in a more powerful performance, or it could make OB a tedious exercise which could make the performance dull. 


Another thing I would consider is using a bite as a reward for obedience, which could keep the dog in drive while performing.


There seems to be 2 camps in bite sports. Those that encourage the dog to play, and those that encourage the dog to fight. So it's up to the handler and trainer which road to take. I'm looking forward to having the opportunity to forming my own opinion on the subject. I find the differences in training to be very interesting. I am beginning to understand the differences and the motivation for using both philosophies. I need to get out and watch dogs working both ways. It seems to me that the genetics / temperament of the dog would drive the decision on which method would better suit the dog.

I would think that this only applies to bite work, and that the dog could still utilize markers and fun in OB, play sessions during training and fun games for engagement, while still being serious in bite work. How this translates to OB around the decoy would make the decision for me.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

You've already gotten some good advice so I won't repeat that. Just a question, do you have another dog? Doesn't have to be a working dog, just a second dog. If you do, I find competition to be a very powerful motivator for many dogs. You don't want to play with me, no problem, I'll just tie you up over here or put you in a crate/kennel where you can watch and go get my other dog out and have a rockin' good time with it. You can do obedience but you can also just play a little tug, fetch, feed treats, whatever. And when I'm training the less motivate dog, I will have the "backup dog" somewhere readily accessible, that the first dog knows they are readily accessible. Works with humans to LOL, the idea that someone else might want what we have can make what we have seem so much more desirable.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Do you have any video of the OB?

Agree with the above. Handle a club members crazy active dog in front of her. I have three, and if I have food/toy and ask for a heel everyone's shoving each other out of basic position to get the reward lol.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

I am with David, Brad and Alice. There is a couple of things I'd look at with her as a variation of what they are saying. 

As Alice was saying I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water just yet. 

You are saying she can take a level 10 correction and recovers well. But my question is where do you go from here? I think this is a classic mistake many make is, 'hardening' the dog to correction. 

I made the same mistake with my male, the corrections kept amping up until I had nowhere to go. I'd correct him so hard that the leash would hurt my hands. I had no where to go so the only place I could go was add emotion. It wasn't fun for me and it wasn't fun for the dog either. Training became a big suck on a sour lemon. The dog just accepted the corrections as part of the path to get a bite and then he'd take it out on the decoy with non existent 'outs' and being a dirty SOB and the cycle of elevating corrections would start again.  

So like yourself I looked hard at what I was doing and took multiple steps back. I went back to working OB for a ball and no bites on the decoy but just the decoy and bite equipment present as a distraction. That is what helped my dog progress. 

The bottom line is the dogs are the biggest part of any work or sport, they determine the speed of progress, and they ultimately *also determine* the training methodology. It is up to us as handlers to recognize that and figure out the best path for progress. 

For example: If a dog can grip well but does not always do it, then it is us humans who are doing something wrong. Dogs need to have things taught to them. We present them with problems in the work and don't take the time to teach them how to solve them. 

So I can say go back to the ball, or withhold food until training. But what works for me or someone else may not work for you. You need to look hard at what the dog is telling you to determine the training methods to teach them what you want them to do. 

Take your time, don't be in a big rush trying to figure it out and just keep it fun.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Geoff Empey said:


> I made the same mistake with my male, the corrections kept amping up until I had nowhere to go. I'd correct him so hard that the leash would hurt my hands. I had no where to go so the only place I could go was add emotion. It wasn't fun for me and it wasn't fun for the dog either. Training became a big suck on a sour lemon. The dog just accepted the corrections as part of the path to get a bite and then he'd take it out on the decoy with non existent 'outs' and being a dirty SOB and the cycle of elevating corrections would start again.


I have the same story. Bad handling on my part. The sight of a sleeve put him in a weird state of mind full of conflict and anger.


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## patricia powers (Nov 14, 2010)

i commend you on your honesty  some folks refuse to come to terms with the reality of their problems. they think they know best, know their dog & how to fix everything. they let their egos stand in the way of progress & allow their desire for points to eventually ruin the dog. there is not a thing wrong with taking a few steps back. nothing wrong with "putting a dog up" for a bit to take a break from the stress & having a bit of fun in the meantime. if you already have the fundamentals from flink's training, you possess the power to bring these things around. he is the best "teacher" i have ever seen. i wish you & your dog the best. because you are honest with yourself, you have an excellent chance of solving these problems.
pjp


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

I think you should find a trainer that can help you. No amount of video watching or internet advise will get you where you want to go.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Haz Othman said:


> She is rambunctious but on the whole fairly obedient actually with stuff I dont compromise on. Its not flashy competition points obedience though. If she wants what I have, she will briefly engage with me but but if I keep it from her will go do something else. She is more persistent for a toy then food.
> 
> *Right here, you say it yourself already... When you do not compromise, meaning you do actually compromise often.. this tells you something about your way of training and how your dog percieves your commands. I would say she doesn;t take you you very seriously. *
> 
> ...


This is a two way street Haz....

The dog might not be as intense as you would like but you are giving her mixed signals left and right and not helping her by excusing her actions or by excusing your own actions. You are right, you should take a few steps back but not as much as you think. YOU should take some steps back and realise that the dog has got your number already. You need to change your approach to her, to make sure to keep things black and white, and to stop asking her to focus but to tell her instead. Okay, it might not look spiffy to start with but that is something you can work with! You need her focus first, make sure to get that focus on you and keep it there, **** if it looks a bit sloppy or non intense for now, once you have her focus you can bring the intensity to her by the profuse rewarding and building of rewards which will bring back her intensity while keeping her focus.... 

One step at a time and nothing else. Start with focus and nothing else. Once focus is established you move on to the next step.

And yes, you can train a non focus dog to do a splendid job and show intensity, its just figuring out how to get there. Have done it more then once, its not easy but it is EXTREMELY rewarding to do.


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

First off thanks for the input everyone.

Alice I appreciate your input however, I think you mis percieve the kind of trainer I am. I have an "its my way or the highway approach", when I know a dog is blowing me off on purpose I give it a correction that counts. The issue here is the dog has not convinced me she knows exactly what I want. Her lack of intensity and interest in the obedience has made the more complicated evolutions difficult to achieve without alot of luring and directional leash ques. 
Layering on pressure to get a focussed heel on a 7 month old dog is not a direction I want to go in as I have a feeling I will end up with more of the same. This is the first sport dog Im training so obviously I have to worry more about her speed and intensity.

In the house I have more rules then at IPO. At IPO she comes out of the truck 3 times, one for a short obedience and twice more for bitework. All fun and she gets to be crazy. 
When I speak about compromise I mean if I dont think she understands the command 100% I wont give her big corrections for non compliance. Example: I know she knows PLATZ and knows not to break the position unless told. When she breaks it I give a heavy correction and she knows why NO compromise. 
The focussed HEEL is still not an exercise she can do without a lot of help, adding pressure to this will not get me the picture I want.

I have tried adding the ball or tug to the work and rewarding the slightest focus but again she just seems to lose interest very quickly. I have tried loading her up with some misses then asking for something again she starts falling out of drive. 

I will agree with you that its how I have been training that caused this issue, thats what I have to change.

If this dog was not for sport I would not care as I can train her to do what I want, the issue is making it flashy and powerful not just reliable (which I can do with pressure). 
Thats the picture I am having an issue with. To get to this place I need her to want "it" more and for that I think I need to step back. 

David: Your right she is not Active in the work, I want to transition her to the prey object for the work but when I do that her drive goes down. I try to bring it back up with quick rewards and some misses and it comes back. Then add some OB and it goes down again. I dont think I want to get serious with her yet as this will not encourage her to become active. I want her to want it and enjoy it. I figure some post work, getting her to bark me into giving her the toy. Fighting her for the toy etc might help before I try using it again.

Hunter: No vids, I should have shot some will try to do some in the next few days.

Kadi: Have another dog, that a great idea!

Geoff: By corrections I mean for non compliance with what she knows or manners related stuff. If I put to much into the OB she gives me the mental finger. Does everything but clearly doesnt like it and becomes slower. However your point is good hence why Im trying to make OB fun for her.

Patricia: I really liked his vid on drive building. Will be going back to the basics with her.



I tried some of my plan out today: 
Put all her kibble into the treat pouch and wandered around the kitchen with her loose paying no attention to her. Any attempt to get my attention I fed her. If she ignored me I ignored her, when she bumped me or tried to get infront of me as I walked around I fed her. She seemed to get it and was definitely being a bit more pushy.

Put her on the post this eve. And had her bark for the tug did some misses and gave her a bunch of grips and wins. I do have an issue where once she has a grip she will not pull to much. Will hump once or twice but if I maintain tension just holds on and stops trying to take it from me. Upping the fight makes her try and hump sometimes but again will only do it a couple of times despite being rewarded with lots of wins when she does this. I want her to try and take it from me more instead of just hanging on. Back pressure does seem to help but its hard to do on my own.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Haz why are you correcting a 7mth old pup hard? i would think that could also be an issue no better method then making a pup think this is not fun .i dont think i have ever given a pup a correction like that at that age(house rules aside) i would ignore the pup and ask for behaviour again rewarding highly when he is correct or put the dog up and try again later and if still stuck help him get past the sticking point then go back to my way or the highway method,i only correct when i know the dog really knows and even if a pup knew i would only verbally correct or withold food etc reward.corrections of the physical type i save for later..

Also expecting a pup to be dynamic and speedy in prey is asking a lot all dogs develop differently i know most of my dogs are more driven for there prey rewards at say 18mths then they ever where at 7mths or less and on top of that maybe the muscle and mental connection isnt where it needs to be yet so speed will come..

For my pups i cant go past teaching with food and ipo is about precision and ob so food will get you there and later you can cross over to prey more and more as she becomes really proficient.

Like geoff said look hard at what the dog is showing you to determine the methods you need to use to get him to do what you want..


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Haz
1. if it's ok with you post my PM; it might also apply to someone else and after rereading it i don't see a reason to make it private
2. you have said your main problem is to keep up intensity in OB since you are looking for points in competition. 
- i don't think it ha been brought up that intensity and OB can be competing issues for a lot of dogs, because you are forcing them to do something they would rather not do, as opposed to gripping, which is self rewarding
- you have also said a few times that it's "your way or the highway", when it comes to enforcing your commands if you think the dog knows them, and that your corrections are strong

- put both those together and that may be the drive killer and reason for the intensity drop
- than add in the age of the dog

you know your dog better than we do, but it should be clear you need to make ANY and ALL OB a LOT more fun if you expect to keep the intensity up
- and you have not acknowledged the point about rewarding after a correction with a higher reward than the correction delivered
***THAT*** is a very important factor i think everyone needs to keep in the FRONT of their mind when working their dog and not just file it away as a keeper that was read online 

lastly, if you simply have a more laid back dog then you want, accept it or get another one that suits you better

good luck


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## Alison Grubb (Nov 18, 2009)

I was having similar problems with one of my dogs until recently. Our obedience seemed to be stuck in the teaching phase thus it was a bunch of baiting and no corrections. She is a very independent dog and (until recently) we were not bonded at all. She would act distracted as a way to avoid what I was asking of her or to get away with not doing it.

I was then given advice similar to what Alice has presented here. I put some personal pressure on the dog and have seen a lot of improvement as a direct result. Apart from the big difference in the obedience this dog and I have, for the first time, established a relationship. 

Note: My dog is 3 years old, not 7 months but depending on the pup, I could see myself being comfortable using similar tactics.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

for me, putting personal pressure (or any kind of pressure) on a dog is what i consider -proofing-

and for me, essential before moving on and adding another behavior on top of it


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Brad corrections are not in OB its during daily stuff. Like I put the dog in a down while Im putting on my boots. If she breaks the down Ill correct that instead of leting her run all over the house. Stuff she knows and more manners then anything else. In the context of OB I dont really correct her, just lure. I think your point about age could also be a factor. Iv probably gone to fast. 

Rick I would agree with you other then I dont really correct the dog in OB. Lots of feeding, verbal feedback etc which I think is why she is reactive in hr obedience. I also agree that pressure at this stage will likely make things worse.

Feel free to post the pm.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

"I supplemented this by luring heavily, and using the leash to give directional ques which moved us along albeit slowly".


To much luring turns into bribing. No matter if your rewarding with food or a tug, that becomes a problem.
She's still a 7 month old pup for strong corrections in OB no matter how well she recovers.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

we ALL go "too fast" sometimes
i certainly have, and most every trainer i've ever watched has too

* even the great Cesar goes too fast  why do you think he gets nailed so often ? //lol//

slow down .. sure ... slow down and do "what" differently is the key


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Bob NO strong corrections in OB, and I agree to much luring on my part.

Rick I stated my plan Im going to follow through with that for a week or two, if all goes well I will start doing some simple OB and see how it goes.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

For some reason I can hit submit and lose the post to cyber world. You don't have a relationship with this puppy other than the your way or the highway that you have written. Heavy corrections for breaking down stays. E-collars for staying in one area so she doesn't become "hectic" around the house. I keep asking what that is. Is there ever a point at home when she isn't a slave to your rules and requirements? The training field sounds like a vacation. I can hear Rick screaming BBBBOOONNNNNNDDDDDD! Normally, for the independent type I would agree with NILIF, but not for this puppy. Your description of the posting leads me to think that it should be left to the training decoy. Don't even go there given your relationship already. The dog is stressed by her interaction with you. What you are doing sounds like something Rick would have recommended. Its what we do with rehab and bonding. Tie the dog to you and let it choose you. When it does, reward that. You could do this for the next 30 days. I have a 14 month old that I train. I think a couple of months ago [whenever Stefan was here] she was just starting to get some food drive. She probably maintains focus and is operant in the obedience for about 5 minutes and I leave it at that. The food drive and ability to focus increased after the first season a little over a month ago. She doesn't have rules. She has a crate and a long line. She has a recall and a down--period. She is starting to hold down stays in the situations I require it and they are probably a minute or less in a highly stimulated environment--i.e. she is in drive. I played with her with some attention heeling at the seminar. Last week to demo for one of my students how to free shape the heeling, I used her. 5 minutes tops and then on to the stock work. If she likes a tug and assuming you aren't pressuring her with it, Balabanov's "The Game" would be fun for her. 

T


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Haz Othman said:


> First off thanks for the input everyone.
> 
> Alice I appreciate your input however, I think you mis percieve the kind of trainer I am. I have an "its my way or the highway approach", when I know a dog is blowing me off on purpose I give it a correction that counts. The issue here is the dog has not convinced me she knows exactly what I want. Her lack of intensity and interest in the obedience has made the more complicated evolutions difficult to achieve without alot of luring and directional leash ques.
> Layering on pressure to get a focussed heel on a 7 month old dog is not a direction I want to go in as I have a feeling I will end up with more of the same. This is the first sport dog Im training so obviously I have to worry more about her speed and intensity.
> ...


I'm going to say something very stupid now... But hey, I have to be recognizable :lol: 

Stop what you are doing and rethink what you have done. You admit to having made mistakes in the past with her so now be smart and stop preparing to make more mistakes in the future.

You have told me what kind of trainer you are.. Let me clue you in on a secret. It doesn't matter what kind of trainer you are one bit. A trainer should be able to adjust itself to the dogs needs and bring the dog into focus when needed. Harsh corrections for a 7 month old dog? It depends on the dog... I don't have problems with correcting a dog, regardless of its age, but the correction should be understood by the dog and it should end up in reward by making sure the dog ends it exercise in rewardable behaviour. 

Your first clue is saying that she doesn't know the commands all that well. Now what I read in your posts and feel free to correct me if I am wrong is this: You do to many small things spread out over time and do not focus enough on one singular exercise in order for her to grasp what is expected of her. You don't really need to step back as much as you need to slow down and start giving her a view of what is free time and what is training time. You need to cut down on your exercises and stick to one exercise per training in order to ensure she gets the right idea. She isn't the most focussed dog in the world according to you so you should be smart and make sure you keep focus on one thing at a time. 

Your biggest clue in your own post is this: You want her to want, you want her to want it.... Guess what? You can want and need all you want but if a dog isn't interested your options become less and you will have to work with what you have infront of you. That is where the NOT asking comes in and the TELLING starts. 

I have a feeling that people have this large negative stamp pushed on anything to do with Correction or Compulsion when nothing is wrong with using either. It is not what you use that counts, it is how you use it! People only focus on the bad sound the words give but they forget the other 50 percent of each way which is the reward side. I have trained dogs with Correction and Compulsion and guess what? They where happy dogs, tails wagging so hard you would think they were about to lift off at any second. Dogs that where willing to please just because they wanted to do so and these dogs didn't always want that to begin with...Sure, at times they showed early on in training how they did not really enjoy it but due to persistance on my part and theirs they got to learn the other side and the fact that life on the other side was pretty damn awesome as well, if not better! The difference between one form of training and the other is that one asks the dog to perform where another doesn't allow a dog not to perform.... 

I am however going to bow out of this conversation tho because one thing is very clear to me... You want help but are not ready yet to accept it. Your words of wanting and needing tell me this much.  

Good luck with your dog, Haz! I hope things work out for you the way you plan!


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Haz Othman said:


> First off thanks for the input everyone.
> 
> Alice I appreciate your input however, I think you mis percieve the kind of trainer I am. I have an "its my way or the highway approach", when I know a dog is blowing me off on purpose I give it a correction that counts. The issue here is the dog has not convinced me she knows exactly what I want. Her lack of intensity and interest in the obedience has made the more complicated evolutions difficult to achieve without alot of luring and directional leash ques.
> Layering on pressure to get a focussed heel on a 7 month old dog is not a direction I want to go in as I have a feeling I will end up with more of the same. This is the first sport dog Im training so obviously I have to worry more about her speed and intensity.
> ...


*How are you upping the fight? Seriously, quit while you are ahead. Leave this to the decoy.*

T


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Alice, once again thanks for the input. I work nights, this gives me plenty of time to think about dog training or stew about it depending on how things are going lol. I think we lose a lot in the way of communication when we try to type a paragraph about what a dog is doing or showing and how we approach the problem or our training. I dont think I am getting across what Im trying to say very well. 

Just so Im clear.
My "its my way or the highway" comment was just in relation to you implying I let her get away with murder outside the IPO field. Not so much that I correct her harshly all the time (I dont). I have strict house rules, I enforce them, no excuses or exceptions. 


I like a lot of what you said even if I dont agree with all of it. Thanks for the input.


Terasita we arent going to agree you jumped to a pile of conclusions, Im not going to bother to pick it all apart. Constructive critisizm and thought provoking dialogue is enjoyable even if I dont agree with it. Emotional rants I tune out. Thats for the pet forums.


*Just to be clear this whole thread is not me begging for help.* 


This was more a post about a training challenge that you may run into when training for sport. I figured it would make for an interesting read, and who knows someone may learn from it down the road. I also, figured some members on here would provide me with some constructive viewpoints / critisizm and they did which has helped my perception of this challenge.

I got a training issue, I dont percieve it to be the end of the world. I have a plan, and Im moving forward with it. I will share my progress as I go along good/bad. I appreciate input from many of the experienced folks on here and often incorporate it into my tool box. Just because i dont agree with you doesnt mean I dont value the input. 
Different perspectives help you see problems from angles you hadnt considered before.


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## angelo sintubin (Jul 21, 2013)

Training is Working with your dog. Wrong.
Its Working together, you and the dog. Look at what the dog is trying to tell you. Work with that. In small steps.
I give you a important tip. 80% play. 20 % work.


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## Guy Williams (Jun 26, 2012)

Haz Othman said:


> First off thanks for the input everyone.
> 
> Alice I appreciate your input however, I think you mis perceive the kind of trainer I am. I have an "its my way or the highway approach", when I know a dog is blowing me off on purpose I give it a correction that counts.


This comment may put the proverbial cat amongst the pigeons but I like this saying. "If the dog doesn't perform a command it either doesn't understand the command or has a more rewarding alternative."

If it doesn't understand then going back a few steps to ensure it does will help.

If the dog has a more rewarding alternative then you have to figure out how to change that. How do you make it more rewarding?

It could be by increasing the value of the reinforcer ie. a new toy or tastier treat etc. or it could be by removing unpleasant or stressful events that are also present.

You say the dog can cope with a level 10 correction and recovers quickly. I would start to question whether that is indeed the case. You may be seeing the effects of a little too much stress in the dog. Have I read the post correctly that we are talking about a 7month old puppy?:sad:


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

No corrections during OB. The comment was to address the question about pressure. Will be working on increasing the value of food and prey items.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Dunno if you're interested but I agree with guy


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

+2 with Guy!


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## Robley Smith (Apr 20, 2012)

The thing that stands out to me is 7 months old. I am very novice compared to many of those who have advised you, but I have had trouble at that age 2x now, and observed it a few other times in others' dogs. Right about 7-8 months your very interested and engaging pup decides to check out whenever they feel, never really engage like they did before, lose work ethic and interest.

I wonder if it isn't a hormone thing, like a sullen Jr. High school aged kid?

I tightened up things in home life, more NILIF and backed off with the work and tried to make sure it was very fun and hoped to see the dogs attention return to me.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Haz Othman said:


> No corrections during OB. The comment was to address the question about pressure. Will be working on increasing the value of food and prey items.


Seriously, I think your puppy is on an emotional rant. Statements like "no corrections in obedience" implies that you don't think how you handle her in other aspects of life regarding your house rules affects how she views you when you want to play sport games. She's not able to separate the two. Angelo, agree wholeheartedly. A little Suzanne Clothier is applicable here. . Guy, you say it all so well--sans emotion. Haz, I'm sure you have it all figured out from here and my comments are also for those reading that might find themselves in the same predicament. Puppies go at their own pace and ability to handle pressure varies at different ages and they don't really settle in until around age 3. A trainer once said to someone: "if you don't have a relationship with the dog outside of the work, what makes you think you are going to have it within the work." Someone who trains with me did the same thing--rules, rules, control, control. Result--dog inhibited and doesn't go into drive. I can get her in drive. Owner/handler can't. Solution--play with her and shelve the obedience for now. The rewards she brought with her to training weren't the rewards the dog sees as rewards. I've had to emphasize over and over--what does the dog view as the ultimate--not what the handler finds convenient or thinks the dog should want.

T


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Here is a vid of the food work. The goal being for her to engage me to get fed. No commands.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBj2UgaMxZk&feature=youtu.be


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## David Winners (Apr 4, 2012)

Some things that may help:

You are moving your reward hand(s) before you MARK. Your hands move, she looks at your hand, then you MARK. You are marking her looking at your hand. I would suggest you practice in a mirror without your dog (or on video) so you can see your mechanics. You want to MARK before any movement of the reward hand, while the dog is in the act of doing what you are marking. These little timing nuances make a big difference. It's not clear to the dog what you want.

I suggest that you work to keep her engaged. She is checking out after every reward, looking at the ground for dropped kibble. So reward with one piece (switch to larger pieces of balanced meat roll if you want to feed her a lot of the stuff) that she can spend a couple of seconds chewing but not drop all over. Then you can keep her focus on you and avoid the check out to sweep the floor. YES, reward, back away and keep her eyes on yours , GOOD, feed, GOOD, feed, GOOD, feed, YES party party party. Add duration by keeping her interest on you, not just by expecting it.

Make the reward more of an event. You can make it more fun by being more animated and by making the food move like a toy. Proper treat placement in your hand is important here as the dog will be in drive and have a better chance of getting your fingers. It took me a long time to get the mechanics of holding the reward right so I could really amp up the dog with movement and not get nipped.

Pretty dog, and she looks like fun.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

What Dave said plus you keep changing what the dog needs to do for reward. You reward for one thing one time and then when the dog repeats it you ignore her, turn your back on her, and/or walk away. All negative behaviors on your part. You can see your dog having a think wondering what changed. You are inconsistent with your behavior and exactly what you are rewarding for so the dog is confused as a result. I see the dog do a real nice engagement only to see you turn your back on her and then reward for a much less action. 

I suggest you decide exactly what you want the dog to do for reward and stick with it for that training session. You want the dog to engage you but you are not defining what that engagement is suppose to be. You can gradually work to a higher refinement of whatever you want the final behavior to be. Also using a clicker will help you mark exact behaviors.


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Good tips david thanks will attempt implementation next time. I didnt want to be to active because i dont want to help her to much as thats what i was doing before. I want her to take the initiative.

Sarah I was initially rewarding her being pushy. Coming and siting in front, bumping me, following me and eye contact. I moved away and turned my back to encourage her to work a bit for it which she did. Perhaps in hindsite i should focus more on just eye contact. But i also want the pushiness.


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## David Winners (Apr 4, 2012)

I understand and agree. I would just wait until you have engagement in the middle of a string of goods and treats, then stop and get her to push you. JMHO

David Winners


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## David Winners (Apr 4, 2012)

Sarah Platts said:


> What Dave said plus you keep changing what the dog needs to do for reward. You reward for one thing one time and then when the dog repeats it you ignore her, turn your back on her, and/or walk away. All negative behaviors on your part. You can see your dog having a think wondering what changed. You are inconsistent with your behavior and exactly what you are rewarding for so the dog is confused as a result. I see the dog do a real nice engagement only to see you turn your back on her and then reward for a much less action.
> 
> I suggest you decide exactly what you want the dog to do for reward and stick with it for that training session. You want the dog to engage you but you are not defining what that engagement is suppose to be. You can gradually work to a higher refinement of whatever you want the final behavior to be. Also using a clicker will help you mark exact behaviors.


I totally agree with this Sarah.

Haz, I think you will see a huge improvement once you fix the fundamentals.

David Winners


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Haz Othman said:


> Good tips david thanks will attempt implementation next time. I didnt want to be to active because i dont want to help her to much as thats what i was doing before. I want her to take the initiative.
> 
> Sarah I was initially rewarding her being pushy. Coming and siting in front, bumping me, following me and eye contact. I moved away and turned my back to encourage her to work a bit for it which she did. Perhaps in hindsite i should focus more on just eye contact. But i also want the pushiness.


Is the direct eye contact on your part or the dog's I always think of direct eye contact from the handler as having the potential to be considered aggressive and can actually ward some dogs off. For me, I think that I would avoid staring at the dog keeping my gaze off to one side and focus on just the pushiness. I do not consider a sit to be pushy when compared to bumping, rubbing, or jumping. The dog gives you a tentative bump which you reward for but when she comes on stronger, you turn your back (negative behavior) which makes her back off a bit. Then when she give a tentative pushy response you reward that but it's not as strong as the one you rejected. Reject the weak responses, reward ALL the stronger ones. You can build up a series of pushy responses before rewarding as time goes on but I would reward each and every time you get a strong response. I would also relax your posture when you get that bump and praise up a bit more. Also a good bit of fun can build up pushiness in a dog. I play body tag with my dogs and they love the opportunity to try and nail me hard.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Tx for posting
*first off, my comments are more of a review of the overall session, not so much the details, so i may be way off here
- it was a great example of showing how training is easy and hard at the same time
- you have a motivated dog that knows the basic ground rules
- you have a plan in mind b4 you start - that's good

- but if i'm understanding correctly, the plan involves quite a few specifics
1. making the dog pushy
2. getting it to bump you
3 getting eye contact
4. staying with you and following your movement
etc

if that is true, that may be one reason people who are observing see some examples of bad timing or your rewarding not being consistent and the dog getting somewhat confused

since you are "taking a step back", etc :
- if you break the plan into very specific goals and focus on ONE for each session, it might be easier for the dog and easier for you .... win-win
- it will make each session clearer and make it easier for you to improve timing of the marks/rewards
- then, start adding another goal for a new set, but start out each set with doing a few reps of the previous one (and don't forget to adjust reinforcing scheds appropriately)

* this also assumes a "training session" is a specific # of sets with specific # of reps rather than just looking at it in terms of a "five min session working the dog"

or you might consider this too detail oriented and way below what you think you and the dog are capable of now //lol//
(but that's just the way i learned, and has worked as well for dogs as it did for marine mammals)

- when i see very good training, i quickly see exactly what the trainer is going for and the dog responding and following right along. iow the session almost doesn't need an intro

btw, all good comments that i've read so far
- and never thought about how the effect of staring might effect a dog and plan to look into that one more since i get quite a few people who have a big problem getting E.C. from their dog...interesting point !


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

What David said about your timing. Without good timing the dog will have a difficult time in connecting the reward with the behaviour or mark. All she's doing is following you around and hoping she gets something from you.
I do nothing but load the marker for a couple of days and from there I work on eye contact as my first behavior. 
I understand what Sarah is saying about direct eye contact possibly meaninig aggression but the markers, IF done correctly will soon teach the dog that it's a rewardable behavior from you and not aggressive.


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Will be working the timing. Eye contact for her does not intimidate her I dont think she has an issue with that.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

You are completely active at all times obviously trying to get her to do something or than what she is doing. She reacts to your movement and is never quite sure what the criteria is. Ditto on never letting the food hit the ground. I don't understand the idea of you wanting her to be pushy--how. You are rewarding, eye contact, touch the right hand, look at your hand in the treat bag, a jump, good heel position, bad heel position, etc. You feed her without mark. You start to mark and it fizzles out and you feed her. The food constantly hits the floor for freebies. Nothing wrong with the trainability of the puppy. Seems operant and engaged to me. 2-3 minute sessions in a little more open space, some choice tidbits and she would be a heeling fool in no time. Nice puppy.

T


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

rick smith said:


> Tx for posting
> *first off, my comments are more of a review of the overall session, not so much the details, so i may be way off here
> - it was a great example of showing how training is easy and hard at the same time
> - you have a motivated dog that knows the basic ground rules
> ...


Thanks for the detailed feedback guys, some things that I knew were important intellectually and read about, but never really thought I was doing wrong. Good thing I shot the vid. 

I guess its my fault then..but I think we knew that. 

FYI Im not going to stop using kibble because this is how Im feeding her now (keeps the food drive up) cheese or meat dont seem to make her anymore excited, BUT I will try and watch it hitting the ground.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

rick smith said:


> - and never thought about how the effect of staring might effect a dog and plan to look into that one more since i get quite a few people who have a big problem getting E.C. from their dog...interesting point !


My male dog who is very dominant but very reliably submits to me will not make eye contact during protection work when heeling. He will have his head in the correct spot, but will be staring at a non-existant spot about 6 inches in front of my face. Someone once suggested it was possibly a reluctance to make direct eye contact b/c of the fact it is one of the first steps of aggressive posturing. Worth noting, this is a sharp dog that will very predictably progress through the steps of posturing with strangers and will growl at strangers who lock eyes with him, stop when they break eye contact, and growl again when they re-establish eye contact... eye contact is clearly very significant to him.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

In heeling on the trial field or in the AKC OB ring I always want the dog to be looking at the side of my head. SOME dogs can get confused when you teach eye contact then get on the field and your looking straight ahead instead of making that eye contact. It can often make the dog wrap on your leg because it wants that eye contact for reward. 
I look at the floor/ground about 10 ft in front of me. I can still see the dog with my perife...perri.... my side vision. That's the picture I want a competition dog to see but that doesn't come till I start marking and rewarding that "look" with the dog sitting in heel/foose position.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

timing is always something that can be improved on and usually brought up in any critique.
- and most every one here knows how important it is 

- specific drills to help improve timing would probably be beneficial to all of us
- just recognizing the importance doesn't always translate into improvement and i don't think it always happens over time, like making wine 

- come to think of it, i have no suggestions myself, even tho i am often telling people their timing is way too late 
- all i can think of is to have the image of exactly what you want in your head and be looking for it, which may be why i am such a slow trainer ... not always easy for me to multi-task with a dog //lol//


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## David Winners (Apr 4, 2012)

Peripheral... lol. That was funny Bob 

The point of focus during heel could be a thread all its own.

I practice all kinds of stuff on humans. Leash control for detection. Free shaping. E-collar timing.... It keeps me from screwing up my dog, and it also helps to be the dog in the human - human drills, especially when free shaping.

David Winners


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Somewhere, someone said practice with two people. One performs the behavior. The other clicks. Until your timing is good with the person, don't even try it with the dog. I have someone that trains with me that destroyed the marker by reaching for the food at the exact time she said "yes." Pretty soon, "yes" meant nothing. The visual was the marker. I try to very quickly take the food off my body. With Rhemy, its in the next room. I don't want the food to key him into drive. Very early he would walk into the room with his nose in the air to see if he could sniff food. I mark, we go get the food. To build an understanding of the criteria, you need successive reps. If there is lots of stuff in between, all you are doing is extinguishing the behavior you are trying to establish--i.e. the dog never gets it. Also, here the space is too small. You were also marking her physical body position. As you turned around, she couldn't really get to the prior marked body positions--especially when you facing and with your body up against the sink. When you mark, you are marking all of it including where her body is in relationship to yours. In essence, you have trained her to do a lot of things you don't want. But, shouldn't be difficult to fix.

T


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

deja voux T.... good point
- in the early 80's we had to do that...two trainers....one was given a behavior card and the other was the animal
- a real cluster fk at first but eventually got the point across
- i gotta revisit that drill !


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I'm still wondering why you "want the dog all over me." You are building in behaviors that are points off in obedience.

T


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

If you want the dog to "be all over me" there is not a lot you have to do. It's a sort of "given".

You can't fool a dog, however young / old it is. If you are not satisfied with the dog's results, you can say "good dog, nice dog, etc." but never forget that the dog can suss your tone and, more importantly, your inner feelings.

If it were my dog (a pup of 7 months is a young dog, over here anyway) I would go outside with her without any idea of training with her and just try to "enjoy" her. Play football, take her into the forest and jump over logs with her, hide her ball and watch her try to find it and, when she does, maybe your "wow, you're the best" will come over more honestly to her.

I would say never consider further training until I had changed my disappointment into pure admiration. And don't tell me you were and maybe still are disappointed in her.

You might take 2 years to learn to know her completely but the pup / dog has your character sussed out in a few seconds / minutes.


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Because it builds excitement and confidence, when she is more active she learns faster. I want her to be active towards me, I want her to push for what I have. Ill scale her back and add precision when the behavior is consistent and reliable.

Timing issues aside this new approach has already made her about 40% more engaged. 

Not going to take two years off of training Gillian, I will just train differently. Im not dissapointed in her, the only thing that dissapoints me in a dog is cowardice and that is not an issue to this point. Of course I wont really know till she is old enough for pressure, which is not important atm.


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

Gillian Schuler said:


> If it were my dog (a pup of 7 months is a young dog, over here anyway) I would go outside with her without any idea of training with her and just try to "enjoy" her. Play football, take her into the forest and jump over logs with her, hide her ball and watch her try to find it and, when she does, maybe your "wow, you're the best" will come over more honestly to her.


This is what I would do right now, until you can get a training plan together. Become a dog for a bit.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> If you want the dog to "be all over me" there is not a lot you have to do. It's a sort of "given".
> 
> You can't fool a dog, however young / old it is. If you are not satisfied with the dog's results, you can say "good dog, nice dog, etc." but never forget that the dog can suss your tone and, more importantly, your inner feelings.
> 
> ...


Agree completely Gillian. There is nothing in his demeanor/body language that says he has any connection with her or that he is into HER. Get outside and run and play with her. Haz, you have so many "I want, I want, I want." You have yet to see her as her own individual. It sounds like you are reciting from something. She is active and pushing for what you have by trying different behaviors to get the reward. Everything about her reads she's not good enough or that you haven't accepted her for who she is. Its like you have this vision of ideal, she's not it and now you are trying to make/mold her into it. One thing about marker training and shaping is that it requires patience to sit back and let the dog figure some things out. You have to be very careful in how you try to influence getting the behavior. If you want push/play behaviors, don't mix it with the obedience. If you want her to push for what you have, why do the Flinks demand for attention and ignore the reward. You are mixing too many things together. Kevin Behan was big on "pushing." But that is a play exercise with the dog comfortable with coming into your body space. You don't get that behavior by standing still and waiting for the dog to touch you. That's a target exercise. Go outside and run backwards encouraging her to follow. You have to become "prey" for the dog. There is no pressure/fight in this. Toss that in too early and you may push the dog into avoidance. She is not a blueprint or some sort of schematic diagram. You can't connect this with that and get X. You have to read her. Play with her and get a training buddy that can watch you and make sure you don't lapse into bad habits. 

T


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Haz Othman said:


> Because it builds excitement and confidence, when she is more active she learns faster. I want her to be active towards me, I want her to push for what I have. Ill scale her back and add precision when the behavior is consistent and reliable.
> 
> Timing issues aside this new approach has already made her about 40% more engaged.
> 
> Not going to take two years off of training Gillian, I will just train differently. Im not dissapointed in her, the only thing that dissapoints me in a dog is cowardice and that is not an issue to this point. Of course I wont really know till she is old enough for pressure, which is not important atm.


I never said anything about taking two years off training. 

You can train the focus by "stationary heeling".

Training the sendaway is also a good exercise.

_Ill scale her back and add precision when the behavior is consistent and reliable. :-?_


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## David Winners (Apr 4, 2012)

When I speak of a dog being pushy, it's a mental thing, not so much physical necessarily.

I want the dog to be like, "Hey, what's next? I want more dad!"

Just for clarification.

David Winners


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

David Winners said:


> When I speak of a dog being pushy, it's a mental thing, not so much physical necessarily.
> 
> I want the dog to be like, "Hey, what's next? I want more dad!"
> 
> ...


I know. That's the way I think of it too. Its more about the dog being operant trying to figure out how to trip the slot machine. The dogs in my group that are physically pushing on their handlers generally resort to that when they aren't getting what they want. Sometimes its confusion as to the criteria but with a couple, they have a passive handler and they think mauling them will accomplish something. A lot of this hints at wanting the dog to act as if the handler is some sort of decoy to dominate.

T


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## David Winners (Apr 4, 2012)

Temperament plus conditioning...

They just do what is successful. 

I'm interested in learning to work dogs in protection in different drives. Fama could learn in play and was very operant during training. She was easy to teach new behaviors. But when we stepped into the real world, she wasn't playing at all. She paid attention, but only checked in visually on occasion. She would follow commands very well, but with a different attitude. Hard to describe but obvious in the work.

This just happened. I don't attribute it to my training. She had experience outside the wire before I got her, so she was already down to business when it was time to work. I want to learn how to accomplish this in training and not on the street. 

This is what I want to learn. It goes back to the OP, for me, because you have to have the dog in the right place mentally to get what you want out of the behavior. So I understand how to train a behavior, but I'm not confident in how to get the dog into that aggressive but controlled mindset in training. I hate to see dogs working in prey / play outside the wire. This usually changes when they get into a real fight, but I'd rather be ready long before that time. I've seen dogs crushed by their first street bite.

David Winners


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

David Winners said:


> Temperament plus conditioning...
> 
> They just do what is successful.
> 
> ...


I think that's every sport person's million dollar question/issue. For me it comes down to those who have the true GSD character and those that don't. Trying to trigger instinct with artificial scenarios with a dog that can read people/situations would be tough. However, thinking of a couple of mine, certain overt actions toward me and you could easily put them in that frame of mind. You hear of ways people do this that they wouldn't post in public. I think there is only so much you can set up artificially with scenarios. There are aspects of the "real" I don't think you can reproduce. In previous threads here I think its why there is a preference for a dog that doesn't think but is merely a slave to certain drives. However, that said, someone like Mike Suttle has testing that they think is fairly predictable of how the dog will perform in the "real" situations. Or at the very least if they don't pass the test, they aren't a candidate for even employing in those situations. 

T


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## David Winners (Apr 4, 2012)

I know it's all been discussed over and over. I just have to get out and do some traveling. I'd love to go to Staatsmacht, Danubius and Loganhaus to see for myself. I'll have a month or so this spring to spend some time at some different clubs and back with the VLK guys, and then another month in the fall.

I have a couple of years until I'm ready to train any bitework anyways. The next project is a medical alert and bedbug dog for the wife, and a SAR / Nosework dog for me.

David Winners


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