# Off Breeds..



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Not sure what an Off Breed is to everyone..butt the topic came up.

Is a Rottie an off breed? An Airedale? A Giant Schnauzer? or just the LGD'S Molossers, and Bull and/ or Terrier types...

Anyone have any video, or know of some containing footage of decent to good offbreeds doing SOMETHING? anything?


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## Shane Woodlief (Sep 9, 2009)

Trouble maker hahahaha!


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## Tanith Wheeler (Jun 5, 2009)

I'm teaching my Greyhound to bite & hold a bite roll for fun:-s. He currently can lie down & will bark on command if the GSD does it first. LOL


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> Anyone have any video, or know of some containing footage of decent to good offbreeds doing SOMETHING? anything?


An oldie..but goodie..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTN5kTkdvME :grin:


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Joby

My wife has a Wire haired Pointing Griffon. He has absolutely no bite or protection training. I believe he would protect me.
Do you want to come and test my theory and maybe shoot a video? ;-)


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wg551in_97w&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFRuYRNdo4I&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbLE72rMgcU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaHdrYYuNCw&feature=related


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## Ricardo Ashton (Jun 3, 2010)

Joby hows this for "off breed" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCpJQSjIXNU


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

This is a small amount of footage of a Corso I have come across a few times..bites hard as hell and has good drive and balance for a Corso. That rottie, bites pretty hard too, I have not "trained" either, but have taken bites on hidden sleeves, hard sleeves, and suits from both personally. 

Not sure if he is a "good" dog to everyone, but I would be happy to own him, if Corsos' were my thing..is this even close to being a good off breed type dog? if looking at the dog?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=if5QA-rTxOQ&feature=player_detailpage

Or how about this dog? Is he any good for an offbreed type?

Here is some footage of a Punchline APBT, that I am pretty sure was sold as a PSD, if I was getting into pitbull type dogs I would be happy to own him. I know that Chris F. was happy to own him..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gX8zsueSc-4


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## Tiffany Damm (Jun 1, 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/user/marifroggy#p/u/7/xp2nS8QbL60


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## Dave Martin (Aug 11, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> This is a small amount of footage of a Corso I have come across a few times..bites hard as hell and has good drive and balance for a Corso. That rottie, bites pretty hard too, I have not "trained" either, but have taken bites on hidden sleeves, hard sleeves, and suits from both personally.
> 
> Not sure if he is a "good" dog to everyone, but I would be happy to own him, if Corsos' were my thing..is this even close to being a good off breed type dog? if looking at the dog?
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=if5QA-rTxOQ&feature=player_detailpage


Nice video, thanks for posting this Joby. What are these dogs names?

Tiffany, have you ever seen Damian work in person? I hope I can get to the DVG Nationals to watch Marisha compete. She's done a great job with him.


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## Tiffany Damm (Jun 1, 2010)

NO unfortunetly mari and i are on opposite sides of the country but she has mentored me for some time. 
Angie recently got a PSA1 on her corso. So there are few. Have to remember its a rare breed and it takes work... to work your dog vs running a circle in a square


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wg551in_97w&feature=related
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFRuYRNdo4I&feature=related
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbLE72rMgcU&feature=related
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaHdrYYuNCw&feature=related



I think by off breeds Joby didn't mean border collies doing herding and agility. Not that there's any thing wrong with that, but that's exactly what those dogs do. To me an off breed would be seeing a jack russel herding. 



I know there was a vid floating around of a black lab doing FR, he wasn't amazing but he got it done. I could only find photos: http://www.pawsnclaws.us/ERD0410-Page1.htm 

Here's Damien doing protection: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smPnvPDj40Y

and another Sch3 corso Mufasa: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdPJWllX2ug

and here's Dozer: http://www.youtube.com/user/RenegadesDozer#p/a/u/1/qlR0nD0zLgI


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## Tiffany Damm (Jun 1, 2010)

I dont have anything entertaining of my corso but he can open the fridge and retrieve me a water! LOL we just started him back in protection so we will see *shrug*


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Joby Becker said:


> rTxOQ&feature=player_detailpage[/url]
> 
> 
> Here is some footage of a Punchline APBT, that I am pretty sure was sold as a PSD, if I was getting into pitbull type dogs I would be happy to own him. I know that Chris F. was happy to own him..
> ...


Cool dog. Like the size and agility of that thing too.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Marta Haus said:


> I think by off breeds Joby didn't mean border collies doing herding and agility. Not that there's any thing wrong with that, but that's exactly what those dogs do. To me an off breed would be seeing a jack russel herding.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have seen Dozer work a few times...I like him.

I don't care what kind of work really. There are plenty of good offbreed dogs. 

Dave,

The Corso is a Boondocks dog, dont know anything more than that, dont know what they breed for, or anything about their dogs.

That Rottweiler was a rescue, not sure if he ever tracked down the paperwork...


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

My first SAR dog was an Australian Shepherd. She went for the sleeve the first time she saw it. BIGass toy!!


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

I dont think you could call the rott,dobe or bouv off breeds


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i must be overdosing on my stoopid pills again 
i always thought an "off" breed is ANY breed doing what they were NOT bred to do

... so a dutch shepherd guide dog would be an off breed, right ??

assuming it has the smarts to learn how to keep a blind owner from walking thru a red light, couldn't it be trained to also protect a blind person from getting mugged without being considered "aggressive" ?

there was a time when lots of guide dogs were gsd's. fwiw, in Japan, ALL guide dogs are off breeds except yellow labs.

but the main reason i'm asking is I saw a guide dog lab "in training" the other day that was showing a lot of aggression when going thru the paces in a congested shopping arcade. it was very focused on the two handlers, but also highly reactive and would tense up to anyone else that came close, and the trainers didn't seem to mind ???


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

brad robert said:


> I dont think you could call the rott,dobe or bouv off breeds


I *had* trouble with this too but I have trouble with calling a tap "faucet" (sp)!! I can't imagine saying "faucet water or mineral water?"

In Europe the main Gebrauchshunde = Utility dogs are:

Airedale, Belgian Shepherd, Bauceron, Boxer, Briard (berger de Brie), Dobermann, German Shepherd, Hovawart, Riesenschnauzer, Rottweiler 

even if one doesn't see them all at higher than regional trials. With a few hundred trials in Switzerland annually, some are bound to be competing in one or other of the many trials.

We are small but colourful :lol:


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## Tim Connell (Apr 17, 2010)

How about a Dogo? This "off breed" is local to me.

This dog is very intense, when you see him in person. Here he is worked on a long line. He hits like a freight train on a long send.

Deb has done an excellent job with this dog, and is currently training/trialing in PSA.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHNJ7kFO1yI


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Tim Connell said:


> How about a Dogo? This "off breed" is local to me.
> 
> This dog is very intense, when you see him in person. Here he is worked on a long line. He hits like a freight train on a long send.
> 
> ...


I have seen quite a few vids of Sam, never met him, but seems like a great dog to me...


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## Tim Connell (Apr 17, 2010)

He's a very cool dog...I'm more of a herder person, but its hard not to like that dog./PHP][/PHP]


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Tim Connell said:


> He's a very cool dog...I'm more of a herder person, but its hard not to like that dog./PHP][/PHP]


There are reasons for sure that even off breed people end up switching focus to herders..happens a lot,,,they get involved in training, and see good herders working, the ease, the speed, the work ethic, the athleticism and the strikes are very attractive... But when I hear a herding guy talk shit about some other breed of dogs, usually saying they cant do anything or are worthless, I really irritates me...

I worked for a PSD vendor/trainer.when I was 23, for a short period of time...he also trained and sold dogs to the public. Listened to him talk shit about pitbulls to a bunch of people for a couple months..

One day I asked him if I could bring my pitbull to his facility and work him, he said no...he hates pitbulls, and only a fool would think they can be trained for that type of stuff. He asked me if the dog was trained at all, because pitbulls are out of control and loose theirs minds if they on the small chance can do anything.

I told him I had a very good dog that was trained in protection...Which was a topic in itself...He thought a guy like me, or anyone else that trains offbreeds, or is not ex-law enforcement, or ex-military...especially those that are all of the above, were terrible trainers, doing terrible things by working with off breeds...saw no value in it, which is fine, but also vehemently against it...typical asshole trainer type guy...

One day I tried to talk to him about my dog, a training problem I was having, and he told me to get rid of the dog and get a GSD.

I finally called him out in front of a bunch of cops, and he agreed to let me bring my dog...He made a big deal out of it, was talking a bunch of shit, made it some kind of challenge..I told him I would put my dog up against his best dog, his personal dog, in regards to bitework.

I brought the hidden sleeves, the muzzles, and the suit, and my dog.
it did not end well, I ended up leaving the job, his pride was hurt to badly to continue a good relationship when his dog did not perform nearly as well as the dog I brought, with third parties making up the tests, and scenarios..

He was very closed minded, and I personally did not agree with how he trained his service dogs...he did no muzzle work, and almost all left arm sleeve training, with very very little exposure to the suit, or hidden equipment. Most of the police I talked with while I was there, said they went to him for certifications, but would not recommend purchasing a dog from him. But he knows everything there is to know, even about off breeds...


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

rick smith said:


> i must be overdosing on my stoopid pills again
> i always thought an "off" breed is ANY breed doing what they were NOT bred to do


That would be my definition as well but also taking into account that in some cases breeds that have once been bred for a job are no longer being bred for that job and the natural skills are being lost. You would think a Doberman is not an off breed for protection sports considering their heritage, but considering how hard it can be to find a good working dobe (or how many breeders are breeding them) they almost have become an off breed in protection sports.

Then you get dogs like the Mals who can excell in just about any venue without being bred for those activities. 

RE that breed prejudice Joby is talking about with the pit bull example, it exists in other venues as well. I remember a corso guy wanted to do agility with his dog (Roy??) and a few agility trainers flat out told him to get that aggressive monster off their property or did half ass "assessment" and told them the dog wouldn't be able to do it.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> There are reasons for sure that even off breed people end up switching focus to herders..happens a lot,,,they get involved in training, and see good herders working, the ease, the speed, the work ethic, the athleticism and the strikes are very attractive... But when I hear a herding guy talk shit about some other breed of dogs, usually saying they cant do anything or are worthless, I really irritates me...
> 
> I worked for a PSD vendor/trainer.when I was 23, for a short period of time...he also trained and sold dogs to the public. Listened to him talk shit about pitbulls to a bunch of people for a couple months..
> 
> ...


Im that guy Joby as you know. Here is how I see it. I love them all!! They all have a purpose and "specialties". Just depends on what a person is looking to do with them. I wouldn't say one is any better than the other they are just bred for different things. People who talk shit about this or that typically don't have a clue or they are talking because they saw some shit on youtube or whatever. My .02 anyway. 

You don't plow with a race horse
You dont take a plow mule to a race track 

sounds simple but lots of folks just don't get it!!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Marta Haus said:


> That would be my definition as well but also taking into account that in some cases breeds that have once been bred for a job are no longer being bred for that job and the natural skills are being lost. You would think a Doberman is not an off breed for protection sports considering their heritage, but considering how hard it can be to find a good working dobe (or how many breeders are breeding them) they almost have become an off breed in protection sports.
> 
> Then you get dogs like the Mals who can excell in just about any venue without being bred for those activities.
> 
> RE that breed prejudice Joby is talking about with the pit bull example, it exists in other venues as well. I remember a corso guy wanted to do agility with his dog (Roy??) and a few agility trainers flat out told him to get that aggressive monster off their property or did half ass "assessment" and told them the dog wouldn't be able to do it.


For many of these breeds, the traditional working functions are obsolete, unless a person does it because they like to do it, as a sport, or has a serious interest in them. Or is as you say, not made to feel welcome...by some...

When looking at off breeds, I read about the temperament first. The history, the hype, and the standard..

The parts about courage, protectiveness, guarding abilites, and of course sport or other functions, especially.

If I was to get one, I would like to take those traits, and train for what I want to, and breed for what I want to. Breeds are all different, but more importantly individuals can also be vastly different.

Character is a huge component, as important as any drives the dogs are supposed to have. So if a breed is supposed to have a character trait that I like, I would like it to be there.

It is not really changing the breeds, if they are supposed to have those traits...to me, and if it is changing the breeds, then so be it, that is still better than having a breed that got hyped, because there were some good dogs around, only to have loss of functionality, because few people do anything with them...

I tried to look at, for instance the Airedale.

The first paragraph on the AKC website contains this as the first traditional function listed, 

_This breed was one of the first used for *police duty in Germany and Great Britain* and has also been popular with Presidents, including Woodrow Wilson, Warren Harding and Calvin Coolidge._

And the history ends with this....

_*......Eventually, the Airedale became known as a dog that could do it all, and was used for wartime guard*, messenger duty, rodent control and hunting birds and game.
_

The AKC standard has no real mention officially of the traits required in regards to temperament, character..etc... that I could find, that would make it good for these. No real temperament section at all.

It does state this, as the first sentence in the informal "Is this the right breed for you" section.

*The Airedale has a sweet disposition, but when challenged, is not afraid to stand up for himself. *

And if you look at Wikipedia, they even quote an author, Albert Payson Terhune in the breed description, who so eloquently wrote the following about the breed..

*"Among the mine-pits of the Aire, the various groups of miners each sought to develop a dog which could outfight and outhunt and outthink the other miner's dogs. Tests of the first-named virtues were made in inter-mine dog fights. Bit by bit, thus, an active, strong, heroic, compactly graceful and clever dog was evolved – the earliest true form of the Airedale.
He is swift, formidable, graceful, big of brain, an ideal chum and guard. ....To his master he is an adoring pal. To marauders he is a destructive lightning bolt."*

So if I was getting into Airedales I would look for breeders that were taking some of this crap seriously, I hopefully could find some, if not then I'd have to start hunting down the smaller sources...

Same with any breed, Boxers have come up in discussion here...The standard for boxers does have nice quote in it as well, without even digging into history, and functions... I have a hard time reading it with a straight face, given what most breeders are doing.

_Character and Temperament
*These are of paramount importance in the Boxer*. *Instinctively a hearing guard dog, his bearing is alert, dignified, and self-assured*. In the show ring his behavior should exhibit constrained animation. With family and friends, his temperament is fundamentally playful, yet patient and stoical with children. *Deliberate and wary with strangers, he will exhibit curiosity, but, most importantly, fearless courage if threatened.* However, he responds promptly to friendly overtures honestly rendered. His intelligence, loyal affection, and tractability to discipline make him a highly desirable companion. Any evidence of shyness, *or lack of dignity* or alertness, should be severely penalized.
*
The foregoing description is that of the ideal Boxer. Any deviation from the above described dog must be penalized to the extent of the deviation.*_

Lack of Dignity? not sure what that means.

So I read Hearing Guard dog....Alert, dignified, self assured, deliberate and wary with strangers, that most importantly possesses fearless courage if threatened...

So is this true about the boxer?
I am sure it is about some of them..

The tricky part is to try to find breeders that are actually treating these traits as importantly, as the standard says they should be, which is rare...off breed or not...

Those are pretty strong words. For both breeds, in my mind...I personally would want and expect a dog that lived up to them...

The real sad part about most of these offbreeds, is that most information has this type of wording, and there really are dogs out there that fit the descriptions...but they are sometimes not the easiest to find.

Many offbreeds draw little interest from people that are interested in training, testing and breeding for traits that promote the breeds in those directions. Many start off in a certain direction, and then the population explodes, with functionality falling to the wayside for a major bulk of the breeds, do to the lack of actual need for those functions, or lack of interest in perpetuating, or evolving them.

It is good that people are all different though, pockets of breeders are present in most off breeds that are breeding to retain some sort of functionality, with a variety of focuses...

These circles of people, may or may not cross paths with mainstream sport training, and if they do, how does that go?? Does it go well? they sometimes do, they sometimes do not. I think that is part of the rift that occurs concerning off breeds.

I brought an off breed dog once to a well known SCH trainer in my area.
The dog was 3 yrs old, lots of training in him. Hung out on the sidelines, took a few bites, wanting to learn about the sport, and also get my dog worked. I had never been to a sport club training session.

When he got around to looking at my dog, he tells me to have the dog sit next to me, and he was going to test the prey drive.

He jumped around, shaking a tug, and ran in circles, got on the ground. The dog probably thought he was nuts. It basically sat there, tense, and looking at me...I did not tell the dog to bite him, and he was controlling whatever prey drive he did have.

After some snickers from the peanut gallery, he told me that the dog did not have enough drive to work. 

I told him the dog was trained, and asked him if he would just go out into the field.

He did, I sent the dog..The dog performed well, was very serious, was sleeve-sure, outed (on the second command, but promptly after), and re-called back to me, back into a sit at my side. 

There was a bad vibe from the start for both of us I think, and the club members...Especially when I mentioned the dog was trained on a suit, and in the muzzle, when asked about what I have been doing with the dog.

I was then told in so many words, that the interests of the people in the club, and my interests might not be the same, even though I was interested in learning about schutzhund, as was not running my mouth about anything. I was told if I acquire a different dog, I would be welcome, but not to bring that one back. It was a 115 lb Presa Canario.

That was my first experience at a sport club. It was a difference of opinion, and interests..

They did not like my dog, or the training I had done with it. On that note, I was not very impressed with most of the dogs there, some running into the blind with their hair up, others that were pretty weak and flat in the bitework, in my opinion. Just was not a good fit.

I think there are plenty people training dogs out there, that probably would not have the interest in learning how to, or taking the time to work with some off breed types of dogs, they often do not fit in with what a herder guy is used to.

lots of rambling...all I can say is if I am getting another off breed, and the standard tells me it is a capable guard dog, or is fearless in the face of a threat, I would want one that exhibits those traits, first and foremost, and would hopefully also get a dog that would possibly be able to compete.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

brad robert said:


> I dont think you could call the rott,dobe or bouv off breeds


Brad,

Tell the GSD people doing Schutzhund, that Dobermanns and the
others aren't "alternate/off Breeds" ;-)


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## Daniel Vera (Sep 4, 2009)

Here is a golden retriever doing something. Just for fun, we got a kick out of it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZsSw5wwEJI&feature=youtube_gdata_player


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