# Lübeck von der Mahler Meister is available for studding



## Bill Cusson

I provide KNPV Stud Service for the Military, Law Enforcement and for the general public who needs a great GSD for Personal Protection.

Lübeck von der Mahler Meister is available for studding –to approved females. Crowned the best attacker in the PH 1 Dutch competition for all GSD’s and certified KNPV PH1 -with 432 points, Lübeck is truly the best Working Line German Shepherd stud dog available “In our humble opinion”. His attacks on the suit are very violent, much more like a Malinois than a German Shepherd. His grips are full and punishing and he has very high fight drive, but at the same time, has the nerves and stable temperament to do virtually any job. His hunt and retrieve drive is amazing. Social dog yet very serious in the work. Beautiful medium sized dog that has offspring who are excelling in the KNPV program in Holland now.

Working line Puppies available from various Lübeck von der Mahler Meister Litters. We strive to create confident, upbeat, robust and mindful GSD puppies.


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## Steve Estrada

Very funny I just had email with Jan Rekers he said Lubeck was going to Texas asking if I was close (I'm in So. Cal.) I responded I thought he was going to Canada! The geography of No.America I think is confusing because of the size, unless the Republic of Texas consumed Canada  best wishes as I bred to Lubeck. I'm happy with breeding, finding working homes another story.....


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## Steve Estrada

Oh yeah great YouTube videos on Lubeck, be prepared to say "Oh sh..!"


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## brad robert

Can you give a description of the sort of pups you see from him so far???


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## Steve Estrada

Great drives, hunting instinct, strong full grips. I bred a 59 cm female to him & would have liked larger males. So wouldn't breed something too small. I know some don't care about size but I try to breed for total dog. Temperament first, drives, grip, hunting drive, retrieve, must be civil, & correct structure. JMHO


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## Connie Sutherland

Ad is here: http://www.workingdogforum.com/clas...able-for-studding96to-approved-females-&cat=8


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## Stefan Schaub

How old is his oldest progeny? have try to find some,but not with a lot success. can someone help me out. i am worry about the showlines in his motherliness.


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## Katie Finlay

Stefan Schaub said:


> How old is his oldest progeny? have try to find some,but not with a lot success. can someone help me out. i am worry about the showlines in his motherliness.


Interesting. I'd be interested in seeing his progeny as well.


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## Ben Thompson

i would like to see him bred to a equally as drivey bitch.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

There's a local very young male but I haven't seen him yet. I thought he was used for breeding at Loganhaus at one time. I'm always one that believes that if you have it advertised for stud, lets see what it has produced when bred to your bitches. But Steve bred to him. Is there a pedigree online for the puppies so we can see the bitch side and do you have any training videos of any of the progeny?

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Stefan Schaub said:


> How old is his oldest progeny? have try to find some,but not with a lot success. can someone help me out. i am worry about the showlines in his motherliness.


Interesting that with the showline on his mother line, his dam is still a KNPV PH 1 for what its worth. He's 7 years old. It would be nice to see how the progeny have fared work/sport-wise.

T


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## Stefan Schaub

like really his father line, but get scared when i see Laacher Haus,Bad Boll and other great Show line kennels. it is the same with long coat, since generation only normal hair and than you have some long coats in your breeding box.i can live better with long coats than with dogs who act like show dogs. recessive!!!!

Steves dogs are to young to say something,all puppies do nice things.


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## brad robert

very interesting subject and surely there is progeny in europe somewhere at his age??

Im a fan of his fathers lines and my dogs have the same lines(nick) thru Olex.


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## Steve Estrada

Stefan is right mine are still young but I'm content where they're at now, only one is being really worked. Jan Rekers, his breeder is working a son.


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## Katie Finlay

Steve Estrada said:


> Stefan is right mine are still young but I'm content where they're at now, only one is being really worked. Jan Rekers, his breeder is working a son.


Steve do you have any videos?


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## Mark Sheplak

Stefan Schaub said:


> How old is his oldest progeny? have try to find some,but not with a lot success. can someone help me out. i am worry about the showlines in his motherliness.


A while back you mentioned that the SV wouldn't approve him for breeding, is this why?

I guess that the ultimate proof will be what he produces. I believe that his oldest progeny are only 2-3 years old, so there isn't enough data yet. 

If he does produce well (big if), at what point does the showline on the Dam's side in the 4th generation matter? Does anyone know anything about Apoll vom Laacher-Haus? This is all that I could find on line. A training video of a 18 month old dog in KNPV...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SwN5L9sHOAI


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## Britney Pelletier

Mike Suttle had a litter with him.. not really sure how they fared, working wise.. perhaps someone could ask him to chime in?

I like the dog a lot, but also get nervous for the same reasons Stefan mentioned.


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## Gerald Guay

I've only seen 2 of Lubeck's pups. Both were by different females.
Both were like this one shown at 7 weeks of age. Check out the cooperation and ................well see for yourselves.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Ev4RuZayQgA


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## Stefan Schaub

Mark Sheplak said:


> A while back you mentioned that the SV wouldn't approve him for breeding, is this why?
> 
> I guess that the ultimate proof will be what he produces. I believe that his oldest progeny are only 2-3 years old, so there isn't enough data yet.
> 
> If he does produce well (big if), at what point does the showline on the Dam's side in the 4th generation matter? Does anyone know anything about Apoll vom Laacher-Haus? This is all that I could find on line. A training video of a 18 month old dog in KNPV...
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SwN5L9sHOAI


I know Apoll (3Geneartion not 4th) and few others like Gundo. both are great looking dogs,just that what they have been breed for.

I have try to breed to Inox,but no chance because of the SV. If i see that Luebeck can produce what i need i will use him but only than. fast long way is not the only thing what matters.have allready contact a friend in holand and wait for his answer.


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## Mark Sheplak

Stefan Schaub said:


> I have try to breed to Inox,but no chance because of the SV.


What is the SV's reasoning on Inox?


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## Stefan Schaub

Mark Sheplak said:


> What is the SV's reasoning on Inox?


no schh title!


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Well Lubeck has certainly made the rounds stud-wise. I curious what his hip production has shown. He was bred t Barje/Frieda van Brandevoort KNPV PH1 and there's mention of two brothers Gandalf and Gideon. It appears Gandalf x-rayed HD/ED A/Normal but nothing on Gideon. No progeny from the Mahler Meister kennel or from standing at stud for kennels such as Bosch K9, Heisenberg, Wendelin, etc. The PGB progeny list seems to be since 2011. Given his age, no progeny prior to that? If this dog was hot stuff as a stud dog, seems like it would be known by now. 

T


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## Mark Sheplak

Stefan, 

Thanks, that is pretty obvious. I would think that if the SV had the best of the breed in mind a PH1 or better yet, a PH2, would be sufficient for breeding. I would think that a PH 1, let alone Met Lof, tells you more about the character of a dog than a Sch 1 that can often tell you more about the skill of a trainer. Somehow I guess that this all comes down to $$ at the end of the day.


Wouldn't the same then hold for Lubeck as well with the SV?

Terrasita,

No much on the web...hip results for 7 progeny listed here 

http://www.working-dog.eu/kinder-details/104794/Luebeck-von-der-Mahler-Meister


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## susan tuck

Stefan Schaub said:


> no schh title!


Stefan unless this is a mistake, it looks like Inox has been breed surveyed kkl2? 
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/104792/Inox-vom-Haus-Ming


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## Chip Blasiole

I think that the SV's standards are a big contribution to the decline in the breed. Case in point is that Lubeck with a KNPV I cannot be bred in Germany, but any German highline dog with a schutzhund title can be bred, even though many could be run off the field with a strong decoy.


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## Stefan Schaub

susan tuck said:


> Stefan unless this is a mistake, it looks like Inox has been breed surveyed kkl2?
> http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/104792/Inox-vom-Haus-Ming


you are right but not for germany.have try and try but they have rules for everything. it is not about money, it is only about sv breeding rules. 

kennel haus ming is breeding with one of my females "germany von der staatsmacht" full sister to Terror mother,he used her with inox.


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## Stefan Schaub

Chip Blasiole said:


> I think that the SV's standards are a big contribution to the decline in the breed. Case in point is that Lubeck with a KNPV I cannot be bred in Germany, but any German highline dog with a schutzhund title can be bred, even though many could be run off the field with a strong decoy.


in the end every breeder picks his dogs for HIS breeding program,not the organization, it is easy to blaim the organization for bad breeding choices. we have many great gsd out there, does not matter if ring ipo knpv or what ever but you must be able to see if the dog fits to his pedigree or if he is a "one hit wonder".


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## Chip Blasiole

I"m just saying the SV ends up limiting your picks of breeding dogs in Germany due to rules intended to help the breed,but that actually are detrimental to the breed.


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## brad robert

Stefan Schaub said:


> in the end every breeder picks his dogs for HIS breeding program,not the organization, it is easy to blaim the organization for bad breeding choices. we have many great gsd out there, does not matter if ring ipo knpv or what ever but you must be able to see if the dog fits to his pedigree or if he is a "one hit wonder".


I think Stefan answered Chip well here!! Yeah the sv might be a screw up but breeders make choices.Over here the gsd organisations do not follow the sv for breed surveys etc they have devised there own and its a total screw up mostly in part due to the fact we have tighter regulations and the governing bodies frown on bite work here its a mess but the big thing is you can still get an excellent working shepherd because breeders looking to breed excellent dogs with the highest qualities still do so.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

So lets say one would breed to Inox anyway and puppies don't have an SV registration number. What other organizations would register the puppies? Maybe its time to gou outside of the SV.

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Mark Sheplak said:


> Stefan,
> 
> Thanks, that is pretty obvious. I would think that if the SV had the best of the breed in mind a PH1 or better yet, a PH2, would be sufficient for breeding. I would think that a PH 1, let alone Met Lof, tells you more about the character of a dog than a Sch 1 that can often tell you more about the skill of a trainer. Somehow I guess that this all comes down to $$ at the end of the day.
> 
> 
> Wouldn't the same then hold for Lubeck as well with the SV?
> 
> Terrasita,
> 
> No much on the web...hip results for 7 progeny listed here
> 
> http://www.working-dog.eu/kinder-details/104794/Luebeck-von-der-Mahler-Meister


Thanks, but how do you register to see the results? Any working titles/videos?

Terrasita


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## Ben Thompson

Stefan Schaub said:


> in the end every breeder picks his dogs for HIS breeding program,not the organization, it is easy to blaim the organization for bad breeding choices. we have many great gsd out there, does not matter if ring ipo knpv or what ever but you must be able to see if the dog fits to his pedigree or if he is a "one hit wonder".


 I value your opinion because you are actually breeding GSD. Your not a one dog wonder who gets on here and starts argumenents and breed bashes.


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## Nicole Stark

I purposely stayed away from a registered dog to avoid discussions like this but as a matter of curiosity presumably this dog has siblings. If so, what is the quality of these dogs or rather are there any specific traits that appear to show consistently through that litter? Further, have they been bred and what has the outcome been from those litters?


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## Britney Pelletier

Nicole Stark said:


> I purposely stayed away from a registered dog to avoid discussions like this but as a matter of curiosity presumably this dog has siblings. If so, what is the quality of these dogs or rather are there any specific traits that appear to show consistently through that litter? Further, have they been bred and what has the outcome been from those litters?


Lubeck actually has a very nice sister, Lola, who is still owned by Jan Rekers. She is an IPO2 and has been bred to Drago v Patriot and also an Ellute son and seems to have produced well so far, but both of those litters are under 3 years old.


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## brad robert

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> So lets say one would breed to Inox anyway and puppies don't have an SV registration number. What other organizations would register the puppies? Maybe its time to gou outside of the SV.
> 
> T


Great question???



Nicole Stark said:


> I purposely stayed away from a registered dog to avoid discussions like this but as a matter of curiosity presumably this dog has siblings. If so, what is the quality of these dogs or rather are there any specific traits that appear to show consistently through that litter? Further, have they been bred and what has the outcome been from those litters?


This is nearly as important to Lubecks own qualities.Good point 



Britney Pelletier said:


> Lubeck actually has a very nice sister, Lola, who is still owned by Jan Rekers. She is an IPO2 and has been bred to Drago v Patriot and also an Ellute son and seems to have produced well so far, but both of those litters are under 3 years old.


Finally some facts


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## Stefan Schaub

brad robert said:


> Great question???
> 
> 
> 
> This is nearly as important to Lubecks own qualities.Good point
> 
> 
> 
> Finally some facts


there is no chance for a registration(VDH/FCI) in germany, could be that you can do it with a backyard organization, but no one need that.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

When I see a stud dog advertised, I look at what he produced for his original kennel/breeder first. Its a red flag for me if his breeder doesn't have anything out of him. This dog has been advertised since 2009 as having progeny iin Mals & GSDs. His mother produced him and another for KNPV I believe. He has stood at stud in several kennels. No videos of working progeny? No helpers that have worked or are working young dogs out of him? Is he typical of the Nick/Half breeding?

T


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## Joby Becker

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> When I see a stud dog advertised, I look at what he produced for his original kennel/breeder first. Its a red flag for me if his breeder doesn't have anything out of him. This dog has been advertised since 2009 as having progeny iin Mals & GSDs. His mother produced him and another for KNPV I believe. He has stood at stud in several kennels. No videos of working progeny? No helpers that have worked or are working young dogs out of him? Is he typical of the Nick/Half breeding?
> 
> T


I am sure there are helpers working some of the dogs. The best way to find out info sometimes is to contact the people involved ourselves. Make some calls if we are interested, ya know?? do some traveling.. 

also, on the EU working dog site, you just click on register..

I have a regular account (free) and can see the hip results, and various other things about some of the dogs on there, but to see everything you might want to see, it takes a premium membership (pay for it)..


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## Katie Finlay

Joby Becker said:


> I am sure there are helpers working some of the dogs. The best way to find out info sometimes is to contact the people involved ourselves. Make some calls if we are interested, ya know?? do some traveling..
> 
> also, on the EU working dog site, you just click on register..
> 
> I have a regular account (free) and can see the hip results, and various other things about some of the dogs on there, but to see everything you might want to see, it takes a premium membership (pay for it)..


Silly Joby, that's easy. Here on WDF we like to make things complicated and controversial 

The progeny is still young but I haven't done too much searching for videos yet. I will. All too young for titles.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Joby Becker said:


> I am sure there are helpers working some of the dogs. The best way to find out info sometimes is to contact the people involved ourselves. Make some calls if we are interested, ya know?? do some traveling..
> 
> also, on the EU working dog site, you just click on register..
> 
> I have a regular account (free) and can see the hip results, and various other things about some of the dogs on there, but to see everything you might want to see, it takes a premium membership (pay for it)..


 
Oh I've registered. That's how I know the hip scores for the Brandevoort litter and others haven't posted much on that and the ages of the others. Didn't turn up much in the OFA database eithr. There's several litters on PDB. As for his littermates, there's Lola and two mentioned somewhere that went to Tiawan. Like I siad, if the dog is being advertised, other than the fact he achieved the title [which is awesome] and he has a producing mother and great sire line, I would think those advertising him would show the progeny and in the case of the original breeder--have up and coming. I went through all the kennels that he has traveled through and nothing. I think the oldest are three. The next group is 2 and after that you have the one year olds. Usually you can find some work--beginning obedience and even the baby bitework. The only dog I've seen referenced working is Gandalf.

If you are so sure, do you know who they are or are you playing devils advocate and assuming. You go to the websites of the various kennels and you don't see anything about the progeny after the initial advertisement of him standing at stud and the litters. But people don't always update. He being the hot commdodity that he is, I'd just think there would be SOMETHING. Maybe Bill has puppies on the ground out of him.

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Katie Finlay said:


> Silly Joby, that's easy. Here on WDF we like to make things complicated and controversial
> 
> The progeny is still young but I haven't done too much searching for videos yet. I will. All too young for titles.


 
There's nothing complicated or controversial about it. If you say in your advertisement there are working progeny, you must know--out of what bitches, worked by what club or helper. As for too young, not to young for training and for the 3 year olds, not to young for titles depending on what venue.

We were ooohhhing and ahhhhing over this dog three years ago when he was advertised and it was announced that he was in the States. It was said he had up and coming progeny on the ground then. He was then sold six weeks later. Since then he has been announced as standing at stud in various kennels and now in Canada. Connie has some great threads going. Next thread: Breed to a dog for what he has consistently produced vs. being able to advertise puppies out of a KNPV titled dog?

We have lots of advertisements in the advertisement section but if you start a thread, expect a discussion--maybe.

T


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## Katie Finlay

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> There's nothing complicated or controversial about it. If you say in your advertisement there are working progeny, you must know--out of what bitches, worked by what club or helper. As for too young, not to young for training and for the 3 year olds, not to young for titles depending on what venue.
> 
> We were ooohhhing and ahhhhing over this dog three years ago when he was advertised and it was announced that he was in the States. It was said he had up and coming progeny on the ground then. He was then sold six weeks later. Since then he has been announced as standing at stud in various kennels and now in Canada. Connie has some great threads going. Next thread: Breed to a dog for what he has consistently produced vs. being able to advertise puppies out of a KNPV titled dog?
> 
> We have lots of advertisements in the advertisement section but if you start a thread, expect a discussion--maybe.
> 
> T


I wasn't calling this particular instance controversial. It was just a general reference to the board. Bad joke. Sorry.


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## Stefan Schaub

Why would someone sell a great producer??
easy to count !!! each stud 800 to 1200$,a good male can make here in the us for sure 30studs,in europe 60 or more. 30 times low(800) is 24000$ in one yearonly for studs, i do not believe this dog was sold for more than 8000$. i am all time wondering how people can not look trough that.


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## Christopher Smith

As long as they keep selling puppies for $1,500-$2,500 they don't need to see through it. :wink:


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## Mark Sheplak

Was he sold or just spending time at various kennels for breeding purposes? I thought that he was still owned by Jan Rekers? Working dog EU still lists him as the owner...


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Stefan Schaub said:


> Why would someone sell a great producer??
> easy to count !!! each stud 800 to 1200$,a good male can make here in the us for sure 30studs,in europe 60 or more. 30 times low(800) is 24000$ in one yearonly for studs, i do not believe this dog was sold for more than 8000$. i am all time wondering how people can not look trough that.


 
I was wondering the same thing. He didn't spend much time at stud in particular kennels and then you don't hear much about the puppies either from Mahler Meister or any of the others. There's also a thread here on WDF regarding issues with hips as far as what is known in Holland. As I said, perhaps Bill has puppies on the ground out of him or knows of working progeny. Otherwise its just breeding to the title.

T


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## Joby Becker

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Otherwise its just breeding to the title.
> 
> T


dont know anything about the dog, other than what is online, but I would say that the people that KNOW the dog and are breeding with him, could quite possibly be doing so because of the traits the dog has, that make him a possible good stud dog in their minds, as opposed to just breeding to the title.


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## Mark Sheplak

Joby Becker said:


> dont know anything about the dog, other than what is online, but I would say that the people that KNOW the dog and are breeding with him, could quite possibly be doing so because of the traits the dog has, that make him a possible good stud dog in their minds, as opposed to just breeding to the title.


Agreed, title is just one part of the equation. 

Terrasita, 

If you really want to know, you will have to go beyond a web search. It seems like there are many people that could immediately be contacted directly starting with the OP, Jan Rekers, Mike Suttle or any other person that has bred to him and discuss their breeding philosophies. Most folks are happy to chat about their dogs. You could also ask for additional references for folks who own the young dogs. 

All stud dogs start someplace. Time is the best filter. Either they produce or they don't. Clearly there are enough folks who like what Lubeck potentially brings to the table to see what he produces.


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## Kadi Thingvall

Stefan Schaub said:


> ,a good male can make here in the us for sure 30studs,in europe 60 or more. 30 times low(800) is 24000$ in one year only for studs,


Are the good GSD studs in the US really being used 30 times in one year??

Dang, I don't think there is a single Malinois stud in the US, regardless of how "big name", who has even been used 30 times in their life, must less in 1 year. At least not in the registered dogs, I don't know about the unregistered dogs.


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## Katie Finlay

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Are the good GSD studs in the US really being used 30 times in one year??
> 
> Dang, I don't think there is a single Malinois stud in the US, regardless of how "big name", who has even been used 30 times in their life, must less in 1 year. At least not in the registered dogs, I don't know about the unregistered dogs.


I certainly hope not. Just another part of the downfall of the breed I guess.


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## Britney Pelletier

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Are the good GSD studs in the US really being used 30 times in one year??


Not to my knowledge.. nope.


In Europe, certainly, but not here.


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## Stefan Schaub

Terror have make 27 live breedings and 1chilled seamen plus 8 frozen.

from the 27 live, i have done 3 with my females.from the 27 live was done 8 in minnesota


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Mark Sheplak said:


> Agreed, title is just one part of the equation.
> 
> Terrasita,
> 
> If you really want to know, you will have to go beyond a web search. It seems like there are many people that could immediately be contacted directly starting with the OP, Jan Rekers, Mike Suttle or any other person that has bred to him and discuss their breeding philosophies. Most folks are happy to chat about their dogs. You could also ask for additional references for folks who own the young dogs.
> 
> All stud dogs start someplace. Time is the best filter. Either they produce or they don't. Clearly there are enough folks who like what Lubeck potentially brings to the table to see what he produces.


 
Like what he brings to the table or hope, because of the title. I think if you advertise it in a thread, its up for asking. So far, no comment. Personally, for me, it starts with hips, elbows and other health factors. I've seen some red flags in that department already--some of which were discussed on this forum over a year ago. What they tell me is one thing. What they show is even better. The von Wendelin puppy was interesting.

T


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## Joby Becker

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Like what he brings to the table or hope, because of the title. I think if you advertise it in a thread, its up for asking. So far, no comment. Personally, for me, it starts with hips, elbows and other health factors. I've seen some red flags in that department already--some of which were discussed on this forum over a year ago. What they tell me is one thing. What they show is even better. The von Wendelin puppy was interesting.
> 
> T


Like I said, I have to assume that the dog is not in a vacuum, and that if someone is really interested to find out, and makes a serious effort to do so, they can.

Have you contacted Bill personally, to make a *serious* inquiry yet?


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## Terrasita Cuffie

If you start a thread and advertise a dog as a stud dog, what is the problem w/ publically answering inquiries about the dog? Thread didn't say "accepting private SERIOUS inquiries only." Had the dog not been mentioned here before, I probably would have thought--ohhh another broker stud dog advertisement. One thing with the Mals and Dutchies, they can openly discuss their dog's attributes. What is the problem with this dog in doing so and GSDs? This is a DISCUSSION forurm. To you, what is a serious inquiry? I'm dead serious about anything having to do with GSDs. Bill is a big boy. I'm sure he can speak for himself or choose not to. On the surface, you are always going to hear that its the best thing since sliced bred in the producing department. If you publically offer information about drives and grips, why not fill in the rest of the blanks, publically? Health/longevity is a huge issue in GSDs. You should expect questions on hip/elbow production. I don't get serious until I see that information first. Generally that means the OFA database. With imports, that's usually a wash. Next, look at any SV information. I don't really believe in it but if they are washing out wih one year SV x-rays, that tells me something. Historically, I don't think Dutch KNPV dogs have been that strong in the hip/elbow department [IMO] so this is something I watch for. Nothing personal. If you're standing a dog at public stud, put the information out there--if you know or if you care. 

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Bill Cusson said:


> I provide KNPV Stud Service for the Military, Law Enforcement and for the general public who needs a great GSD for Personal Protection.
> 
> Lübeck von der Mahler Meister is available for studding –to approved females. Crowned the best attacker in the PH 1 Dutch competition for all GSD’s and certified KNPV PH1 -with 432 points,* Lübeck is truly the best Working Line German Shepherd stud dog available “In our humble opinion”*. His attacks on the suit are very violent, much more like a Malinois than a German Shepherd. His grips are full and punishing and he has very high fight drive, but at the same time, has the nerves and stable temperament to do virtually any job. His hunt and retrieve drive is amazing. Social dog yet very serious in the work. Beautiful medium sized dog *that has offspring who are excelling in the KNPV program in Holland now*.
> 
> Working line Puppies available from various Lübeck von der Mahler Meister Litters. We strive to create confident, upbeat, robust and mindful GSD puppies.


Statements made like this publically, can be backed up publically. From what has been said, there aren't many GSDs in KNPV, let alone "excelling." I'm sure GSD folks would love to know, who and what kennels to keep an eye out for them. No one will deny him the fantastic accomplishments, but it doesn't make him a great stud until he consistently produces it and for some, reliable health along with it.

T

T


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## Joby Becker

T.

I have seen other ads that Bill has posted.

I do not know Bill, do not know the dog, I can only give my opinion on things.

I think Bill made a mistake in posting this thread, I believe that the thread was basically an Advertisement, letting people know that the dog is available for use. A way to promote the dog, to get the word out, which may not have been the best move.

He did not post the actual Ad, until he was told about the Advertisement protocol on here, and that Ad was posted several weeks after this thread was started.

Bill is obviously proud and excited to have acquired Lubeck, which was evident in his first postings here. He has said that this is a new venture for him, the breeding of these dogs. 

It does not appear that Bill has participated much in the discussion boards around the net, I have seen a few other ad postings for Lubeck though.

He is obviously not real savvy on the ins and outs of posting on internet boards, as with most things that takes time to figure out. I am of the opinion that in some ways starting threads about a breeding program or posting in threads, can be a lose/lose proposition for sure. There is very little upside to getting involved in the threads, and potential for downside.

Of course Bill is excited about his dog, and he thinks he is the bees knees, seems lots of people like the dog. I am pretty confident that Bill did not mean to imply that the dog is the Best GSD stud, in regards to being a proven producer. He likes the dog, he thinks the dog is the best..from the little I have gathered about him (through others), he seems like a real nice high quality dog, that deserves to be given a chance to explore him as a stud dog. Everyone that has seen the dog, worked the dog, and tested the dog, that has commented publically has spoken pretty highly of him, and seem to think he should be bred. His progency are out there, people have commented on them here. There are simply not enough older examples that have proven themselves, at least where info is available upon an internet search. When Bill says they are excelling, what does he mean exactly? I dont know....could be that the feedback he has gotten from the owners/trainers is that they are excelling in the training that they are doing. 

Bill obviously joined here, in part, to promote the dog. He made a bad choice to do so in a thread, in retrospect I am sure he would have just posted an Ad. He has posted about him in other threads and always said to contact him for more info. In his intro, he mentioned he was about to start a breeding program. 

In his first posting, aside from his intro he mentioned he was about to get the dog. In that thread several people here commented on the dog.
Bill also extended the invitation for people to contact him regarding details.

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBul...-2011-dutch-knpv-national-championship-21228/

Any way you slice it, enough people like the dog enough that they think he should be bred, regardless if there is enough proof of his progency that is instantly publicly available in this thread to satisfy your curiosity.

People that are serious about considering him for use as a stud dog will obviously inquire more directly, and go see the dog (most likely). 

To imply that people are making a choice to use him based on his title, is ignorant I think. The dog has made an impression on the people that know him, and have worked with him and tested him, which I am sure means more than the fact he has a title. 

It is not out of the realm of possibility that he would allow people to see, work and/or test the dog for themselves, which is what most people do when considering a dog for breeding. 

Whether or not he turns out to be a great producer that makes an impact on the breed, is something that will be seen in the future.

To think that anyone is obligated to provide any info on anything in an internet thread is silly. Especially to people that are not seriously interested in using the dog as a stud dog. If someone is interested enough to want to find stuff out, I am pretty sure Bill will gladly talk to them. 

It is a lose/lose in my mind..what could he provide to try to satisfy? what would that solve, what if it wasnt enough to satisfy every question that any Tom Dick or Harry decides to inquire about? Look at the negativity that is already here, without any real involvement from Bill, what is to gain by attempting it? not much, if someone is interested in the dog, they can inquire, and if they are really interested they can go see him, or seek out and go see his progency, I am sure the dogs are around to be found, not living in a black hole...not everyone is putting everything online to try to promote the dogs they own.

here are a couple vids of ONE of his progency in training, the ONLY ones I personally could find online, there may be more, they are on Frank Stommels youtube. Kennel is Van Brandevoort, who has titled quite a few dogs in KNPV and been in the Championships. Van Brandevoort produced the 2012 KNPV 1 Champ, and also a dog that placed 7th in the PH2 Championships with a perfect score I think. Frank has a website, which shows which studs he has used in his past litters, and also that he used Lubeck. It is amazing that he would do so, isnt it? I mean after all, there is almost NO info in this thread about him for people to make decisions on...considering the previous studs he has used, and the dogs he has produced, I think it is safe to say that he might know something about breeding dogs..even though this thread is lacking on substance.

here is Franks Website.
http://www.van-brandevoort.nl/english/english.htm

vids of his Lubeck son can be found here.
http://www.youtube.com/user/FrankStommels/videos?view=0

Your tone about this dog has been mostly negative from the start. You most likely would not be interested in using this dog, so why do you feel Bill should respond to your inquiries publicly, if you are not willing to try to research or contact him or others directly?

Anyhow, most people with 1/2 a brain should be able to figure out that Bill made an enthusiastic statement about his dog, which he is proud to be using, in his new program, which others have also thought was a good dog to use as a stud, people that are more experienced than Bill most likely. People should also should be able to realize that Bill is not going to be able to provide enough info to convince others that the dog is the Best GSD stud out there in terms of verified proven offspring. I am pretty sure he just posted on here to let people know that he has the dog, and that it is available for use, if people are interested, he unfortunately put it in a thread instead of a straight advertisement, which would have avoided this whole deal, lesson learned most likely...

If you do not want to use the dog then dont use him. pretty simple.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Joby Becker said:


> T.
> 
> I have seen other ads that Bill has posted.
> 
> I do not know Bill, do not know the dog, I can only give my opinion on things.
> 
> I think Bill made a mistake in posting this thread, I believe that the thread was basically an Advertisement, letting people know that the dog is available for use. A way to promote the dog, to get the word out, which may not have been the best move.
> 
> He did not post the actual Ad, until he was told about the Advertisement protocol on here, and that Ad was posted several weeks after this thread was started.
> 
> Bill is obviously proud and excited to have acquired Lubeck, which was evident in his first postings here. He has said that this is a new venture for him, the breeding of these dogs.
> 
> It does not appear that Bill has participated much in the discussion boards around the net, I have seen a few other ad postings for Lubeck though.
> 
> He is obviously not real savvy on the ins and outs of posting on internet boards, as with most things that takes time to figure out. I am of the opinion that in some ways starting threads about a breeding program or posting in threads, can be a lose/lose proposition for sure. There is very little upside to getting involved in the threads, and potential for downside.
> 
> Of course Bill is excited about his dog, and he thinks he is the bees knees, seems lots of people like the dog. I am pretty confident that Bill did not mean to imply that the dog is the Best GSD stud, in regards to being a proven producer. He likes the dog, he thinks the dog is the best..from the little I have gathered about him (through others), he seems like a real nice high quality dog, that deserves to be given a chance to explore him as a stud dog. Everyone that has seen the dog, worked the dog, and tested the dog, that has commented publically has spoken pretty highly of him, and seem to think he should be bred. His progency are out there, people have commented on them here. There are simply not enough older examples that have proven themselves, at least where info is available upon an internet search. When Bill says they are excelling, what does he mean exactly? I dont know....could be that the feedback he has gotten from the owners/trainers is that they are excelling in the training that they are doing.
> 
> Bill obviously joined here, in part, to promote the dog. He made a bad choice to do so in a thread, in retrospect I am sure he would have just posted an Ad. He has posted about him in other threads and always said to contact him for more info. In his intro, he mentioned he was about to start a breeding program.
> 
> In his first posting, aside from his intro he mentioned he was about to get the dog. In that thread several people here commented on the dog.
> Bill also extended the invitation for people to contact him regarding details.
> 
> http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBul...-2011-dutch-knpv-national-championship-21228/
> 
> Any way you slice it, enough people like the dog enough that they think he should be bred, regardless if there is enough proof of his progency that is instantly publicly available in this thread to satisfy your curiosity.
> 
> People that are serious about considering him for use as a stud dog will obviously inquire more directly, and go see the dog (most likely).
> 
> To imply that people are making a choice to use him based on his title, is ignorant I think. The dog has made an impression on the people that know him, and have worked with him and tested him, which I am sure means more than the fact he has a title.
> 
> It is not out of the realm of possibility that he would allow people to see, work and/or test the dog for themselves, which is what most people do when considering a dog for breeding.
> 
> Whether or not he turns out to be a great producer that makes an impact on the breed, is something that will be seen in the future.
> 
> To think that anyone is obligated to provide any info on anything in an internet thread is silly. Especially to people that are not seriously interested in using the dog as a stud dog. If someone is interested enough to want to find stuff out, I am pretty sure Bill will gladly talk to them.
> 
> It is a lose/lose in my mind..what could he provide to try to satisfy? what would that solve, what if it wasnt enough to satisfy every question that any Tom Dick or Harry decides to inquire about? Look at the negativity that is already here, without any real involvement from Bill, what is to gain by attempting it? not much, if someone is interested in the dog, they can inquire, and if they are really interested they can go see him, or seek out and go see his progency, I am sure the dogs are around to be found, not living in a black hole...not everyone is putting everything online to try to promote the dogs they own.
> 
> here are a couple vids of ONE of his progency in training, the ONLY ones I personally could find online, there may be more, they are on Frank Stommels youtube. Kennel is Van Brandevoort, who has titled quite a few dogs in KNPV and been in the Championships. Van Brandevoort produced the 2012 KNPV 1 Champ, and also a dog that placed 7th in the PH2 Championships with a perfect score I think. Frank has a website, which shows which studs he has used in his past litters, and also that he used Lubeck. It is amazing that he would do so, isnt it? I mean after all, there is almost NO info in this thread about him for people to make decisions on...considering the previous studs he has used, and the dogs he has produced, I think it is safe to say that he might know something about breeding dogs..even though this thread is lacking on substance.
> 
> here is Franks Website.
> http://www.van-brandevoort.nl/english/english.htm
> 
> vids of his Lubeck son can be found here.
> http://www.youtube.com/user/FrankStommels/videos?view=0
> 
> Your tone about this dog has been mostly negative from the start. You most likely would not be interested in using this dog, so why do you feel Bill should respond to your inquiries publicly, if you are not willing to try to research or contact him or others directly?
> 
> Anyhow, most people with 1/2 a brain should be able to figure out that Bill made an enthusiastic statement about his dog, which he is proud to be using, in his new program, which others have also thought was a good dog to use as a stud, people that are more experienced than Bill most likely. People should also should be able to realize that Bill is not going to be able to provide enough info to convince others that the dog is the Best GSD stud out there in terms of verified proven offspring. I am pretty sure he just posted on here to let people know that he has the dog, and that it is available for use, if people are interested, he unfortunately put it in a thread instead of a straight advertisement, which would have avoided this whole deal, lesson learned most likely...
> 
> If you do not want to use the dog then dont use him. pretty simple.


There must be several 1/2 brains on here but you have your own single agenda. But for you this would have been done several comments ago but you will persist as Mr. Defense. As for my tone, really I'm neutral until I see certain information. You want to rewrite, create his motivations and justifications. How do you know what I've done research and personal contact-wise? This really wasn't so much about Bill but about the dog. But you want to make it about Bill as some sort of vehicle for playing the great defender. If you paid attention you would know that I know about the Bradevoort dogs and several others but you're so committed to the one-track defense agenda. But you keep at it.

T


----------



## Gerald Guay

I think Bill is from the Montreal area. I may have met him with Jan at my house for a short visit two years ago. 

Lubeck lived down the road from our place for about a year and I have seen him work and this was when he was out of his working prime and not in working condition. His entries are hard, fast and furious. Never seen a GSD come in like that. He also is a dog who likes to work and is cooperative. I did not get the opportunity to see his hunt drive which is a working dog criteria. He is a real nice bitework dog with good social skills. Of course this is all phenotype I observed and does not say anything about his genotype or what he is capable of passing on or not capable of passing on both health wise and temperament wise.

His possibilities of breeding many bitches in this area are rare as most people here are into IPO and IPO lines and they do not know who Lubeck is nor do they care. The IPO breeders here stick to IPO studs.


----------



## Stefan Schaub

Gerald Guay said:


> I think Bill is from the Montreal area. I may have met him with Jan at my house for a short visit two years ago.
> 
> Lubeck lived down the road from our place for about a year and I have seen him work and this was when he was out of his working prime and not in working condition. His entries are hard, fast and furious. Never seen a GSD come in like that. He also is a dog who likes to work and is cooperative. I did not get the opportunity to see his hunt drive which is a working dog criteria. He is a real nice bitework dog with good social skills. Of course this is all phenotype I observed and does not say anything about his genotype or what he is capable of passing on or not capable of passing on both health wise and temperament wise.
> 
> His possibilities of breeding many bitches in this area are rare as most people here are into IPO and IPO lines and they do not know who Lubeck is nor do they care. The IPO breeders here stick to IPO studs.


Breeding is easy!!you see a good dog,for example Luebeck!!you like what you see,than you take his pedigree and check it. than you see that the dog and the pedigree do match or not match, for example no match luebeck, than you can make a decision risk to breed with him or not. 

i liked his speed, i do not like his crying,maybe he hurt him self or nerves, do not know. but his pedigree in his mother line is something what no one want. how many time people get sick about protection on the sieger show and than you want bring that in your breeding program.


----------



## Gerald Guay

Thanks for your reply Stefan. 

Please do not feel that I was promoting the dog Lubeck. All I can say is the dog looked real good doing his bitework. As I mentioned, that is not in itself a guarantee of good genetics. By the way the dog was quiet when I seen him work but that was not in a trial or other stressful situation.

I agree that most breeders do not have a true understanding of what bloodlines are compatible. Also many people judge a dog's performance on the field rather that the dog himself. Performance on the field is so training/handler influenced.


----------



## Britney Pelletier

Stefan Schaub said:


> Terror have make 27 live breedings and 1chilled seamen plus 8 frozen.
> 
> from the 27 live, i have done 3 with my females.from the 27 live was done 8 in minnesota



Stefan, 

If you don't mind me asking, why don't more people who have bred to Terror keep info up to date about his progeny, etc? It would be nice to be able to keep track of how he has been producing with a variety of different females. I am a big fan of Terror


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Gerald Guay said:


> I think Bill is from the Montreal area. I may have met him with Jan at my house for a short visit two years ago.
> 
> Lubeck lived down the road from our place for about a year and I have seen him work and this was when he was out of his working prime and not in working condition. His entries are hard, fast and furious. Never seen a GSD come in like that. He also is a dog who likes to work and is cooperative. I did not get the opportunity to see his hunt drive which is a working dog criteria. He is a real nice bitework dog with good social skills. Of course this is all phenotype I observed and does not say anything about his genotype or what he is capable of passing on or not capable of passing on both health wise and temperament wise.
> 
> His possibilities of breeding many bitches in this area are rare as most people here are into IPO and IPO lines and they do not know who Lubeck is nor do they care. The IPO breeders here stick to IPO studs.


Thanks for the personal observation and the video. It was neat to watch the mother of that pup working the dairy cows in the barn and a video of the littermate as well. I also didn't realize that IPO would limit themselves to IPO only. Geez, the working dog gene pool is small enough but interesting perspective to think about. 

T


----------



## Erik Berg

Stefan Schaub said:


> i liked his speed, i do not like his crying,maybe he hurt him self or nerves, do not know. but his pedigree in his mother line is something what no one want. how many time people get sick about protection on the sieger show and than you want bring that in your breeding program.


I guess the question is if a little influence of showlines from the 80s is so much to worry about, especially if some of these dogs are better producers of health and workingdrives than some of the 100% workingline GSDs. I mean, if it was only GSDs with no "showlines" and IPO-titles that is OK to breed on, then many dogs would get lost for breedings.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

What's interesting to me is that his mother out of that showline pedigree produced two KNPV dogs from different sires I believe looking at workingdog.edu. So is that showline stuff dominant enough to hurt you breeding-wise? All showline isn't created equal. It seems the fact that he has a mother with proven working ability and produces it would weigh heavily in his favor.

T


----------



## Stefan Schaub

Erik Berg said:


> I guess the question is if a little influence of showlines from the 80s is so much to worry about, especially if some of these dogs are better producers of health and workingdrives than some of the 100% workingline GSDs. I mean, if it was only GSDs with no "showlines" and IPO-titles that is OK to breed on, then many dogs would get lost for breedings.


if you would know Gundo you would not say that

in germany all top show dogs are titeld schh3/ipo3 before 24 month.


----------



## Stefan Schaub

Britney Pelletier said:


> Stefan,
> 
> If you don't mind me asking, why don't more people who have bred to Terror keep info up to date about his progeny, etc? It would be nice to be able to keep track of how he has been producing with a variety of different females. I am a big fan of Terror


i do not know! working dog eu give you answer about the german litters, i have round 10 different terror kids out of different kennels and moms in my training.you are more than welcome to watch.


----------



## Erik Berg

Stefan Schaub said:


> if you would know Gundo you would not say that
> 
> in germany all top show dogs are titeld schh3/ipo3 before 24 month.


I was more thinking of such GSDs in general and not lubeck only, dogs that have some showlines further back in the pedigree. If these showdogs didn´t produce more sickly dogs than normal, I don´t see why they matter in the present dog that are many generations away from those showdogs and themselves are good dogs and producers. Yes, I know in germany the showdogs are also titled in SCH, but demanding also a SCH title on a certified policedog or a dog doing another sport serves no purpose, other than they can´t be used for breeding.

For example, this dog have some german showlines on his mothers side, is this a problem?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOApRGnopsE

His littermate pedigree,
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dog.html?id=670699

Also this one with quite some offspring have some early 80s german showlines,
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dog.html?id=474891


----------



## Paul R. Konschak

Stefan Schaub said:


> if you would know Gundo you would not say that
> 
> in germany all top show dogs are titeld schh3/ipo3 before 24 month.


Are you saying that one dog in his pedigree, who represents 1/32 of his pedigree or 3.125% , makes the dog non suitable for breeding? Have you ever seen the dog or a progeny in person?

Paul


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## Chip Blasiole

Stefan,
I believe you are dedicated to improving the breed. Can you tell us other ways you test your breeding dogs that go beyond trial requirements? I have several criteria that I think a breeder should look at since mental/drive/temperament/disposition traits are crticial to keeping a breed at top level. Physical traits are easy to select for.


----------



## Chip Blasiole

Examples would be biting confidently on wet slick floor with the decoy using a chair to block the dog. Does the potential breeding dog aggressively enter a body of water requiring him to engage the decoy. Building searches, passive bites, fighting two decoys while tied out. This would be difficult/expensive for a lot of breeders to assess, but will the dog enter a helicopter while the blades are engaged and will the dog parachute jump and recover quickly after landing?
To me, this lack of assessment is part of the reason the working breeds are declining.


----------



## brad robert

Chip Blasiole said:


> Examples would be biting confidently on wet slick floor with the decoy using a chair to block the dog. Does the potential breeding dog aggressively enter a body of water requiring him to engage the decoy. Building searches, passive bites, fighting two decoys while tied out. This would be difficult/expensive for a lot of breeders to assess, but will the dog enter a helicopter while the blades are engaged and will the dog parachute jump and recover quickly after landing?
> To me, this lack of assessment is part of the reason the working breeds are declining.


So you think "they" use to test for this stuff when the working breeds were "better". when the gsd was "apparently" good was there even helicopters i mean to some people the good gsd were back at birth of jesus himself.


----------



## Stefan Schaub

Paul R. Konschak said:


> Are you saying that one dog in his pedigree, who represents 1/32 of his pedigree or 3.125% , makes the dog non suitable for breeding? Have you ever seen the dog or a progeny in person?
> 
> Paul


your calculation does not fit. it is 1/4!!! chateau is clean show breed. may be she was good. i do not know that. but her genetic makes 1/4 of his blood.


----------



## Stefan Schaub

Chip Blasiole said:


> Stefan,
> I believe you are dedicated to improving the breed. Can you tell us other ways you test your breeding dogs that go beyond trial requirements? I have several criteria that I think a breeder should look at since mental/drive/temperament/disposition traits are crticial to keeping a breed at top level. Physical traits are easy to select for.


i think it is important to see this line between good and good for breeding.so many people talk about good dogs and try to push them in breeding programs.

one example,this year sieger show germany,clean working line. give me your opinion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8zfpl3zro4

same dog in training

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfSIzdRJWXk


----------



## Chip Blasiole

Brad,
I don't get your point. My thinking is that the breed has declined due to poor selection. The only way to improve the breed is to improve the selection process. The breed was better before there were helicopters. Now the breed is so over bred, and schutzhund is the gold standard for breeding, not to mention the greed of the showline community in Germany and else where, that the breed has declined and in order to improve it, much higher standards need to be in place IMO.
Also, the breed is only a little over 100 years old. The birth of Christ goes back to 2012 years.


----------



## Chip Blasiole

Stefan, 
The highline dogs look stressed just heeling before the bitework. But again, I don't believe the standards for the working line dogs are high enough to significantly improve the breed and remove the substandard dogs.


----------



## Paul R. Konschak

Stefan Schaub said:


> your calculation does not fit. it is 1/4!!! chateau is clean show breed. may be she was good. i do not know that. but her genetic makes 1/4 of his blood.


My calculation is fine. You spoke of the dog Gundo in his pedigree. You still have not answered my questions if you have met Lubeck or any of his progeny in the flesh. You have spoke very strongly about a dog that you have not met or tested

Paul


----------



## Stefan Schaub

Paul R. Konschak said:


> My calculation is fine. You spoke of the dog Gundo in his pedigree. You still have not answered my questions if you have met Lubeck or any of his progeny in the flesh. You have spoke very strongly about a dog that you have not met or tested
> 
> Paul


it is not only about Gundo,there is also Apoll and a few others,like i say 1/4 is pure show line.
do you think after i test him i change my mind about him.his pedigree is the same and after i have talk with some people in dutch i know i was right.

it is easy to talk about breeding, if you know how to breed good dogs prove it to me.you try to protect a dog who have prove nothing.

i breed since 2002,the web is full of my dogs, may be i am to open with my mind but in the end it shows that i am right. google my kennel name and be happy what you see.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Hhhhhhmmmmm, that 1/4 showline produced his mother who has produced but figures in the non-producing ability of Lubeck. Interesting. I wonder if his mother had working littermates and I'm curious regarding what the Dutch result is but understand that's probably private. I too wonder how important it can be but basically there are undesirable dogs in the bloodline and those genes are there for him to pick up in terms of genotype.

T


----------



## brad robert

Chip Blasiole said:


> Brad,
> I don't get your point. My thinking is that the breed has declined due to poor selection. The only way to improve the breed is to improve the selection process. The breed was better before there were helicopters. Now the breed is so over bred, and schutzhund is the gold standard for breeding, not to mention the greed of the showline community in Germany and else where, that the breed has declined and in order to improve it, much higher standards need to be in place IMO.
> Also, the breed is only a little over 100 years old. The birth of Christ goes back to 2012 years.


Chip i agree with a lot of what you said its very true BUT i still believe there are really great lines of gsd so i just ignore the shit and move on and keep my eyes on the "good" stuff that I LIKE but what i was trying to get to is i agree that a breeders testing should be much more then a sch title but i just have doubts breeders back when the breed started out where testing on shiny floors or doing double decoy VERY often hey would love to be shown im wrong and that the breed really did start in higher places but i feel it started honestly and its US the modern era testing harder or looking for harder environmental tests or nerve and drive tests which can only be a good thing.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Chip Blasiole said:


> Stefan,
> The highline dogs look stressed just heeling before the bitework. But again, I don't believe the standards for the working line dogs are high enough to significantly improve the breed and remove the substandard dogs.


 
I think he means Leviathan von der Schiffslache who I assume is the only working line dog there?

T


----------



## Stefan Schaub

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I think he means Leviathan von der Schiffslache who I assume is the only working line dog there?
> 
> T


there are more than one working dog on the bszs. my example was this dog in a crazy area, and it is crazy!!10000people screaming and 30 dogs waiting for the next protection. he does not look bad in all his trainings movies and his breeder write how great he is and try to push him into studs. and than on a big event like that you see his nerves,no grips close to running away.to mutch stress from outside,the helper work was soft but still tooooo much for him.


----------



## Erik Berg

Stefan, this dog had quite many offspring in europe I believe, it seems his french lines has quite many showdogs further back. Do you mean you would not breed to such a dog because of that?
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dog.html?id=494008

I guess you can by selective breeding for some generations get a good dog even if some of the ancestors was not of the best quality when it comes to workingability. So if a dog has some showlines 25-30 years back but the generations after that actually have shown to be good dogs and producers I suppose that is most important, it´s todays dogs we breed on anyway, not the showdogs far back.


----------



## brad robert

Erik Berg said:


> Stefan, this dog had quite many offspring in europe I believe, it seems his french lines has quite many showdogs further back. Do you mean you would not breed to such a dog because of that?
> http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dog.html?id=494008
> 
> I guess you can by selective breeding for some generations get a good dog even if some of the ancestors was not of the best quality when it comes to workingability. So if a dog has some showlines 25-30 years back but the generations after that actually have shown to be good dogs and producers I suppose that is most important, it´s todays dogs we breed on anyway, not the showdogs far back.


Nice post Erik! I think this is where it gets interesting as that pedigree had some show stuff then it was splattered with exceptional producing working lines and the french stuff which looks like goes back on show stuff is now producing french ring dogs and mondio dogs.I think it gets to a point like the above pedigree if it can be shown that the litters are consistant and producing strongly you have to rethink


----------



## Mark Sheplak

Stefan,

At what point do you not worried about the showline in the pedigree? You are concerned about Lubeck, so I assume that 3rd generation is too close. 

Would you be o.k. with Eric von Sportpark being produced from your kennel? He has a showline in the 4th generation (doubt that it what caused the uniball). Ditto for Moses in the 5th. Both of these dogs have seated 1 in top competitions. 

Nope, not a breeder, but genetics isn't simple division either. At some point if a showline continues to produce decent working dogs, it would make sense to look beyond the pedigree. Genetics isn't simple division. My underlying assumption here using the word "decent" is that you cannot hide a bad dog in KNPV like you can nurse a showline through a Sch title. 

Lubeck is an unproven producer now, but he produces himself or better, do you take a shot and breed to his progeny?


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Mark Sheplak said:


> Stefan,
> 
> At what point do you not worried about the showline in the pedigree? You are concerned about Lubeck, so I assume that 3rd generation is too close.
> 
> Would you be o.k. with Eric von Sportpark being produced from your kennel? He has a showline in the 4th generation (doubt that it what caused the uniball). Ditto for Moses in the 5th. Both of these dogs have seated 1 in top competitions.
> 
> Nope, not a breeder, but genetics isn't simple division either. At some point if a showline continues to produce decent working dogs, it would make sense to look beyond the pedigree. Genetics isn't simple division. My underlying assumption here using the word "decent" is that you cannot hide a bad dog in KNPV like you can nurse a showline through a Sch title.
> 
> Lubeck is an unproven producer now, but he produces himself or better, do you take a shot and breed to his progeny?


It seems that Stefan is saying that the Dutch aren't impressed with Lubeck's producing ability. I mean theoretically, he could have all the phenotype in the world and even as a fluke pick up the negative genes from a genotype or producing point of veiw. How many times have we talked about working littermates and one even with all the glory titles yet the lessor known or campaigned is actually the better producer? I wouldn't assume from the showline pedigree but it could be that they already know that the showline attributes are rearing their ugly head with the progeny. So for Stefan, at least, he is proven.

T


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## Tiago Fontes

Can anyone tell me the names/pedigrees of Lubeck's offspring competing in KNPV?



Thanks


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## Joby Becker

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> It seems that Stefan is saying that the Dutch aren't impressed with Lubeck's producing ability. I mean theoretically, he could have all the phenotype in the world and even as a fluke pick up the negative genes from a genotype or producing point of veiw. How many times have we talked about working littermates and one even with all the glory titles yet the lessor known or campaigned is actually the better producer? I wouldn't assume from the showline pedigree but it could be that they already know that the showline attributes are rearing their ugly head with the progeny. So for Stefan, at least, he is proven.
> 
> T


Just curious, what do you base your theories on?

I would be curious to hear exactly what Stefan's Dutch contacts have said, and who they are, and how much exposure they have with the offspring directly. To imply that those contacts speak for the "Dutch" is possibly a little silly. 

Could be that only one or two guys responded, could be that they do not have much experience with the dogs, or none at all..I dont know, just speculating like you are...

could be like me asking you about a stud dog, and you giving me a bad report based on whatever, and then I tell a Dutch person about it, then the Dutch guy tells the other Dutch guys..."The Americans arent impressed..." 

lets get some details here...


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Ahhhh, the defender returns. Which theory are you referencing? You said in your previous posts that one should make calls and speak with people personally. I guess he did. Now you figured he spoke with the inexperienced and is basing his opinions on what they said. No one would deny this dog his accomplishments and knowing Stefan's pedigrees and that he has bred to that type of sire line, I would think if the dog had it production-wise, he would be interested in him. I think he has been successful enough and experienced enough in the whelping box and on the field, he knows who to talk to and what information to ascertain. As I said, what he learned from who he talked to is enough for HIM to make a decision about the dog's producing ability. 

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Tiago Fontes said:


> Can anyone tell me the names/pedigrees of Lubeck's offspring competing in KNPV?
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks


I don't think I came across any that were actually competing in KNPV. I think Gandalf v. Brandevoort is in training. He's not yet 2 years old. If you look at Post 57, Joby posted links to videos of him working along with some of his dam Bartje. Of the litters I found, there were a couple in 2009, but most have been since 2011. I think Lubeck was 5ish when he got his KNPV certification. Not sure what the average age is and the training time that goes into it but wouldn't expect less than age 3 to be KNPV. Anyone know the typical average age?

T


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## Tiago Fontes

Thanks for your reply.


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## Stefan Schaub

Joby Becker said:


> Just curious, what do you base your theories on?
> 
> I would be curious to hear exactly what Stefan's Dutch contacts have said, and who they are, and how much exposure they have with the offspring directly. To imply that those contacts speak for the "Dutch" is possibly a little silly.
> 
> Could be that only one or two guys responded, could be that they do not have much experience with the dogs, or none at all..I dont know, just speculating like you are...
> 
> could be like me asking you about a stud dog, and you giving me a bad report based on whatever, and then I tell a Dutch person about it, then the Dutch guy tells the other Dutch guys..."The Americans arent impressed..."
> 
> lets get some details here...


may be you should also google my kennel name and you will see that knpv breeder have use my males and females for breeding.i am pretty sure your contacts to the top sport people and breeder around the world are better than mine. i think it is better to let people in their dream world.


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## Sandra Stanton

I have a male & female by Lubeck & am _very _happy with them.
I only breed dogs for work here - police/security/detection/pp/sar etc (NSW Australia).
I do not have time for 'Sport' or competition & am not interested in it. 
I look at the individual dogs (vs training), what they have produced & the same with the bitch, all must be to my own personal standards for real life working stock, which imo are high.
I only occasionally post video's but will post vid of my two Lubecks as they grow & anyone can ask any questions about them, I don't mind at all. I have a male & female. 
Both are intense in their biting with absolutely excellent grips - 100% bombproof in noises & external stimuli - wet slippery floors they don't even notice - retrieval is very good & both are extremely keen & want only to please, & even for puppies they just don't quit searching. 
So far, so good. 
Their mother is a New Zealand police line bitch - very stable, terrific drives, excellent deep bite & powerful grips, easy to cap, all in all a darned nice bitch.
I am one of these working breeders who often slips under the radar because I don't compete, & nearly all of my stock is utilized within the working dog industry.
There must be others like me around the world - so you DO have to hunt around to find out how well or poor certain stock is going by asking directly at the source.


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## brad robert

Sandra Stanton said:


> I have a male & female by Lubeck & am _very _happy with them.
> I only breed dogs for work here - police/security/detection/pp/sar etc (NSW Australia).
> I do not have time for 'Sport' or competition & am not interested in it.
> I look at the individual dogs (vs training), what they have produced & the same with the bitch, all must be to my own personal standards for real life working stock, which imo are high.
> I only occasionally post video's but will post vid of my two Lubecks as they grow & anyone can ask any questions about them, I don't mind at all. I have a male & female.
> Both are intense in their biting with absolutely excellent grips - 100% bombproof in noises & external stimuli - wet slippery floors they don't even notice - retrieval is very good & both are extremely keen & want only to please, & even for puppies they just don't quit searching.
> So far, so good.
> Their mother is a New Zealand police line bitch - very stable, terrific drives, excellent deep bite & powerful grips, easy to cap, all in all a darned nice bitch.
> I am one of these working breeders who often slips under the radar because I don't compete, & nearly all of my stock is utilized within the working dog industry.
> There must be others like me around the world - so you DO have to hunt around to find out how well or poor certain stock is going by asking directly at the source.


Im often interested in how people say they dont have time or interested in sport/competition but breed from dogs that have sport/competition background or take notice of titled dogs i realise we would be silly not to take notice but still seems at odds with the original concept.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

brad robert said:


> Im often interested in how people say they dont have time or interested in sport/competition but breed from dogs that have sport/competition background or take notice of titled dogs i realise we would be silly not to take notice but still seems at odds with the original concept.


Oh I don't know. I think it would be interesting to see videos of the puppies and the dam and the dam's pedigree. 

T


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## brad robert

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Oh I don't know. I think it would be interesting to see videos of the puppies and the dam and the dam's pedigree.
> 
> T


Yeah i agree it would be nice to see there development its an interesting litter.Im guessing this is the vom heisenberg litter.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

brad robert said:


> Yeah i agree it would be nice to see there development its an interesting litter.Im guessing this is the vom heisenberg litter.


Ok, I remember seeing that one listed somewhere. Yep, they would be interesting to see.

T


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## Gillian Schuler

brad robert said:


> Im often interested in how people say they dont have time or interested in sport/competition but breed from dogs that have sport/competition background or take notice of titled dogs i realise we would be silly not to take notice but still seems at odds with the original concept.


I understand you Brad. As a matter of fact all our Police dogs in Switzerland and Germany start their careers in Sport Dog Clubs, on the sleeve. 

The actual police dog training follows afterwards.

As far as I know there are kennels that can sell their dog to the police but with 8-10 pups in a litter, it is necessary to breed for the sport as well, although the outcome could become the same.

Some are sold to sport who maybe would have made good police dogs and vice versa but I guess these pups are well vetted!!

But do not turn your nose up at sport. If we didn't have kennels providing both, where would we be?


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## Sandra Stanton

Don't forget, this is Australia & we don't have much in the way of dog sports - Aus sucks as a country for producing serious quality 'sport' dogs - virtually any dog with a good handler can be a successfull sport dog!
In face, some of our States, in their great wisdom, have banned the Sch sport completely & your dog/s can be confiscated & destroyed if you are even seen, or reported as doing bite work with them.

Yes, all stock is tested extremely thoroughly by us & police & I am the only Govt approved private breeder in Australia

Sport dogs & PSDs are chalk & cheese over here - with so many very nervy dogs having passed their SchHIII, proving it's useless here.
Overseas, mainly europe, but some USA, we see sport dogs that _can_ be suitiable for real work _and_ sport - but not here.

I like Lubeck the 'dog' - not for what he's achieved in competitions

And I'll happily say it again - I have NO time, inclination or interest in 'sport' dogs in Australia!
All I care about is that my dogs are stable & suit their real life jobs extremely well & do it competantly - & this they do.
Stock here _must_ be proven working dogs first & foremost - we don't look for titles - we look at the dog, what it can bring to the table & what it's produced & usually use only proven PSD line stock.

Yes, their dam is a very nice Von Heisenberg bitch in New Zealand

Why is it so difficult for some of you people to get your heads around the fact that not all countries even try to produce 'useable' sport stock - let alone 'working' stock!
Most 'working' dog breeders in Australia don't even work their dogs!
Here, a sport dog is a sport dog, that's it,,, it'll never be capable of being anything else - & it's hilarious to think some would say they could be suitable as Military or PSDs
Titles don't make a dog in my opinion


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## Stefan Schaub

Sandra Stanton said:


> Don't forget, this is Australia & we don't have much in the way of dog sports - Aus sucks as a country for producing serious quality 'sport' dogs - virtually any dog with a good handler can be a successfull sport dog!
> In face, some of our States, in their great wisdom, have banned the Sch sport completely & your dog/s can be confiscated & destroyed if you are even seen, or reported as doing bite work with them.
> 
> Yes, all stock is tested extremely thoroughly by us & police & I am the only Govt approved private breeder in Australia
> 
> Sport dogs & PSDs are chalk & cheese over here - with so many very nervy dogs having passed their SchHIII, proving it's useless here.
> Overseas, mainly europe, but some USA, we see sport dogs that _can_ be suitiable for real work _and_ sport - but not here.
> 
> I like Lubeck the 'dog' - not for what he's achieved in competitions
> 
> And I'll happily say it again - I have NO time, inclination or interest in 'sport' dogs in Australia!
> All I care about is that my dogs are stable & suit their real life jobs extremely well & do it competantly - & this they do.
> Stock here _must_ be proven working dogs first & foremost - we don't look for titles - we look at the dog, what it can bring to the table & what it's produced & usually use only proven PSD line stock.
> 
> Yes, their dam is a very nice Von Heisenberg bitch in New Zealand
> 
> Why is it so difficult for some of you people to get your heads around the fact that not all countries even try to produce 'useable' sport stock - let alone 'working' stock!
> Most 'working' dog breeders in Australia don't even work their dogs!
> Here, a sport dog is a sport dog, that's it,,, it'll never be capable of being anything else - & it's hilarious to think some would say they could be suitable as Military or PSDs
> Titles don't make a dog in my opinion


A sport dog is a sport dog?? so where does all your good working dogs come from and why do you have than puppies out of a good knpv sport dog??


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## Sandra Stanton

Stefan Schaub - In Australia, Yes, a Sport dog is only a Sport dog!
I've answered your questions - if you care to read what I said.
My working stock comes from proven PSD line stock.
Didn't know it was a crime to like a particualar GSD for what I see in the dog & like his street work in the USA, or is the crime liking Lubeck becase he's done so well in KNPV & he's a GSD?


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## brad robert

Sandra Stanton said:


> Stefan Schaub - In Australia, Yes, a Sport dog is only a Sport dog!
> I've answered your questions - if you care to read what I said.
> My working stock comes from proven PSD line stock.
> Didn't know it was a crime to like a particualar GSD for what I see in the dog & like his street work in the USA, or is the crime liking Lubeck becase he's done so well in KNPV & he's a GSD?


I hate to say it sandra but you are contridicting yourself and i think stefan and gillian are trying to say that in fact you like dogs that are from proven lines of sportdog-1 generation does not make it a service line.I am familiar with some of the dogs you have mentioned and some did sch and security work so where does that land you?? Definately not a service line...but a line that can produce service dogs.I have a son from one of what is probably the greatest service dogs this country has seen as a dog and as a producer especially in QLD and Vic but i dont consider him from service dogs he is from sport dogs that can produce both types of dog but yes he is super serious as was his sire and his imported dam.

There is indeed people breeding for sport dogs here supplying to the services as well these people know dogs very well and choose ones with the right traits and character for work.But i i agree and understand that your dogs have to suit your needs and certain lines will produce that for you and commend you on selecting what suit that best and weeding out the rubbish which i also agree we have a lot of here.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

This is the kinda exchange that makes you think there is some behind the scenes drama going on. I can remember when I said I wanted to work dogs in real work and had no interest in trialing. I still have minimal interest in trialing but I do it. That a person uses sport competition dogs, yet isn't interested in sport especially given some of the region's issues, doesn't seem like a big deal to me. Are the titles incidental and the dog has proven himself outside of the sport context? Or is use of sport titled dogs about money and marketing? You can keep what you like for your work yet have a means of marketing the rest due to the sport/title background? Regardless, given the topic of the thread regarding Lubeck's producing ability, would love to see the pup's and the dam.

T


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## brad robert

I do see where you are coming from T in some of that and not in other parts im sorry.I can assure you i have no axe to grind or any behind the scenes "issues" im just an aussie "bloke" saying it as i see it


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Well I went to the von Heisenberg site which states it has Lubeck frozen semen. There is a video for each of the bitches and they are all playing fetch with a stick or a ball. Jumped over to PDB because they didn't list which bitch was bred to Lubeck that I noticed. On PDB there are two itters--Vaste and Juno. Sandra, which is yours? I wouldn't call either of these "police line." There is one dog in the pedigree listed as a PSD. Mostly they are sport line with a dash of KNPV. Sandra did you purchase these two for your program? Did you see Lubeck work? The two bitches aren't listed on the von Heisenberg site. Did they do the breeding or someone else? Just curious.

T


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## brad robert

i think the most renowned police line from new zealand is the optikas diesel(imp U.K) line which come down from xamm von der Daelenberghutte who was from belschik who was from troll and were all "sportdogs":wink: and producers of great service dogs too.Another kennel here has one from Vaste so im going with that.:-k


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Well, if you tell me its a "line" I look for multi-generations of PSDs and I guess then the question is whether its single/dual purpose. Sport is some on-record testing of some sort whereas quality of the PSD can be difficult to ascertain unless you just plain know the dog. Still, would love to see the puppies and maybe videos of the mom working--not playing fetch which seems to be a von Heisenberg thing.


T


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## Stefan Schaub

Sandra Stanton said:


> Stefan Schaub - In Australia, Yes, a Sport dog is only a Sport dog!
> I've answered your questions - if you care to read what I said.
> My working stock comes from proven PSD line stock.
> Didn't know it was a crime to like a particualar GSD for what I see in the dog & like his street work in the USA, or is the crime liking Lubeck becase he's done so well in KNPV & he's a GSD?


lets make it easy,post a few links to videos of your own dogs,out of your breeding program. i do not care what they do but would really like to see how they work.


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## Sandra Stanton

Stefan - Firstly, my dogs prove their worth with their daily life with myself, the Security company & NSW & NZ police (S & DP) - you think someone like myself or anyone else would spend time organising videos & posting them just because you or anyone else ask for them? I certainly won't unless I feel like it (& that's not often), can't answer for everyone else, but a lot would think their time is better spent elsewhere as well.

When I say PSD line stock, I mean particualar dogs _themselves_, not what's around them.
The dogs I have used are not Sport dogs, nor just obedience competition dogs - these particular dogs are naturally sharp & protective yet stable & gentle within a family.
We have chosen to use the dogs we have for a reason - they can & do 'real' street work!

Lubecks semen (as other dogs semen) was collected well _before_ he, or the other dog, were anything at all in Sport - they were just at the start of it.
Both were seen working, ones progeny was seen working & many of their siblings were seen working, & semen was then chosen from the best dogs & out of all dogs seen, only two dogs were collected from.

Von Heisenberg often just place 'happy - fun' videos of their dogs & they have a good reason for it.
I have real work vids & have seen the dogs themselves at work with the NZPD & NSWPD - in life & in the PD competitions of which Von Heisenberg has been at the winning end quite a lot.
Speaks for itself.

Hopefully the two Lubecks here will go on to be the darned good dogs we expect them to grow up to be. I am glad to say they are both going extremely well so far & they have better grips, determination & natural retrieval over & above many other 'working' dogs bred over here.


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## Sandra Stanton

PS to Stefan - didn't mean to sound bitchy about the videos. There is no one here able to take photos except myself, let alone videos, that's why it's not easy to do & needs a lot of time to be put into it to do - & uploading even a few minutes often take hours from here. Very frustrating.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

But you originally said you would post videos????

T


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## brad robert

Sandra Stanton said:


> Stefan - Firstly, my dogs prove their worth with their daily life with myself, the Security company & NSW & NZ police (S & DP) - you think someone like myself or anyone else would spend time organising videos & posting them just because you or anyone else ask for them? I certainly won't unless I feel like it (& that's not often), can't answer for everyone else, but a lot would think their time is better spent elsewhere as well.
> 
> When I say PSD line stock, I mean particualar dogs _themselves_, not what's around them.
> The dogs I have used are not Sport dogs, nor just obedience competition dogs - these particular dogs are naturally sharp & protective yet stable & gentle within a family.
> We have chosen to use the dogs we have for a reason - they can & do 'real' street work!
> 
> Lubecks semen (as other dogs semen) was collected well _before_ he, or the other dog, were anything at all in Sport - they were just at the start of it.
> Both were seen working, ones progeny was seen working & many of their siblings were seen working, & semen was then chosen from the best dogs & out of all dogs seen, only two dogs were collected from.
> 
> Von Heisenberg often just place 'happy - fun' videos of their dogs & they have a good reason for it.
> I have real work vids & have seen the dogs themselves at work with the NZPD & NSWPD - in life & in the PD competitions of which Von Heisenberg has been at the winning end quite a lot.
> Speaks for itself.
> 
> Hopefully the two Lubecks here will go on to be the darned good dogs we expect them to grow up to be. I am glad to say they are both going extremely well so far & they have better grips, determination & natural retrieval over & above many other 'working' dogs bred over here.


"Other working dogs bred over here speak for yourself" LOL i have very similiar lines to Lubecks(nick vom heilgenbosch) here from imported dogs and they are great too and not many people have them or nor should they :-D 

On a serious note what is a govt accredited breeder/kennel i have not really heard this term said over here? i know people who supply but dont use that term could you please elaborate on that??


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## Sandra Stanton

T - I will be happy to post vidieo clips when I do them of the two Lubecks as they grow, absolutely.

Stefan asked for me to post video of all my dogs working.
I can't often organise the right people capable of holding & focusing a video camera here, or to film all of my dogs, it's not something I find necessary so have never bothered about it.

Brad - All that info is on my old website www.ssk9s.com
I'm endorsed & accredited, no other private breeder/trainer in Australia is.


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## brad robert

Sandra Stanton said:


> T - I will be happy to post vidieo clips when I do them of the two Lubecks as they grow, absolutely.
> 
> Stefan asked for me to post video of all my dogs working.
> I can't often organise the right people capable of holding & focusing a video camera here, or to film all of my dogs, it's not something I find necessary so have never bothered about it.
> 
> Brad - All that info is on my old website www.ssk9s.com
> I'm endorsed & accredited, no other private breeder/trainer in Australia is.


So you are endorsed as a SATMA breeder and trainer is that right?

Sorry i thought you were saying you were accredited or endorsed as a provider of military/police dogs.

Thanks


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## Christopher Jones

We have a Lubeck male puppy with a club member here so we will see what he is like when we get training again. 
Brad there is no government approved kennels for working dogs in Australia. But I guess you already knew that.


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## brad robert

christopher jones said:


> we have a lubeck male puppy with a club member here so we will see what he is like when we get training again.
> Brad there is no government approved kennels for working dogs in australia. But i guess you already knew that.


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