# Which breed do you prefer for SchH?



## Hillary Hamilton (Jan 6, 2009)

I love the rottie and boerboel!!! I'm not experienced enough to know about the sport but I'm sure most people love the GSD or Malinois. :-D

GSD
Malinois
Rottie
Presa
Pit
Bouvier
Schnauzer
Other


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Neither of the breeds you like. LOL

In reality you train the dog you have in front of you. I do not envy you going out to find a Rott to work in Sch. That is biting off a big hunk. I wish you luck.


----------



## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

I have a rott. He's a good one as far as rotties go and I doubt you'll find a better one if you're going via the puppy route. Still not enough dog for me. I got a malinois who'd better be enough dog or I'll sell them both and get another pug for a pet.

Actually Hillary, I've seen a couple of really nice ACDs. They would make a good schH dog if you wanted something different.


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

West German working lines German Shepherd dog. Color shouldn't matter but I prefer a sable dog.


----------



## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

Hey Mike, I was wondering why you like west german lines over east german, just curious. Maybe somebody that knows more about certain pedigrees could fill me in on the main differences between the 2.


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

todd pavlus said:


> Hey Mike, I was wondering why you like west german lines over east german, just curious. Maybe somebody that knows more about certain pedigrees could fill me in on the main differences between the 2.


I am by no means a GSD blood lines expert but am learning and trying to understand from a consumer point of vieu about the different lines and crosses. 
I wasted allot of years studying Rottweilers
I am a Schutzhund sport guy typically the west German dogs mature quicker than the east. I will use a meaningless number 4 vs 5yrs to mature. That alone is kind of the deal breaker for me.
Another is I will use a football analogy tight end vs linebacker.


----------



## Amber Gentry (Dec 15, 2008)

Well I am a total newbie to the sport, but my dog is a Cane Corso.


----------



## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

I have a Dobermann which curiously is not on the list above, though there are more in the sport than some of the dogs listed. It is still as much about the dog for me as the sport. If it was more about the sport than the dog then I would prefer a West German working line GSD.


----------



## Willaim Somers (Jan 17, 2009)

I was wondering about the lack of Doberman on your list as well, I have a Dobe, and yes it took a lot of time to find a good one, but I would be willing to spend a lot more time and effort looking for a Dobe than I would for a shepherd or mal, but thats just me. In your case I suspect you have a love of the Fattie er I mean Rottie :mrgreen:, so I would spend the time and effort looking in that direction, just realise it's gonna be a long search. Having been in the sport for awhile now I can tell you alot of first time handlers do better with the GSD, it matures quicker, is easy to read ect...there is alot to learn out there for you as a trainer/handler so if you can minimize issues from the start....the flip side to this is if you have a difficult high drive cheeta on coke for a dog you will learn a lot more while trianing your first sport dog..if you can avoid being the trainee that is.:mrgreen:


----------



## Hillary Hamilton (Jan 6, 2009)

Sorry!!! I was just going through the dogs I see around here!! lol Dobes I don't see too much of!!


----------



## Lynda Myers (Jul 16, 2008)

I'm new to and have chosen to work with 2 of the off breeds (Amer. Bulldog and Pitbull) I feel that both breeds with the right drives and training can and do hold their own in a world dominated by Furries. But only time, wise breeding and training can how far they can go up the ladder.


----------



## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

I like a good dog and it can be any one of the classic working dogs we expect to do protection with; GSD, Belgian, rott, boxer, bouv, dobe, them mutts people call dutch S, and probably a couple more that I forget. But it has to be good dog.


----------



## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

Willaim Somers said:


> I was wondering about the lack of Doberman on your list as well, I have a Dobe, and yes it took a lot of time to find a good one


William, may I ask where you got your dobe?


----------



## Michelle Testa (Feb 1, 2008)

I love Giant Schnauzers


----------



## Julie Blanding (Mar 12, 2008)

Nice Pic Michelle!
I like a dog that listens to me... still trying to find one.

Julie


----------



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

For my next breed, I'm going with another herder, the Belgian Malinois. It seems that the top two breeds are the GS and Mal. and to beat the top dog Mals are ruling in many venues. Now looking for one with attitude, overbite, gimp leg, and called Lucky!

Michelle I owned a GSN and they ARE great. Love the attitude and size. Close in temperament to the Bouv but smaller framed.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: I feel that both breeds with the right drives and training can and do hold their own in a world dominated by Furries.

Good luck with the bull breeds, people have been hoping that for years, and it ain't gonna happen. For every ONE that sorta does the sport, there are hundreds that don't.

Breeders are not gonna be any help either, they want the money. LOL

Last thing I wanna see is the pit bull focused on man. Pit people are normally some of the dumbest ****s on the planet, lets not encourage that.

For every half responsible pit owner, there are over a hundred that are not.


----------



## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)




----------



## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

If you want to compete in USA Nationals then they only accept GS.


----------



## Willaim Somers (Jan 17, 2009)

Only GSD at the USA nationals are you sure? I don't watch the GSD's much but I recall seeing the 94 or 92 USA Nationals and 4 of the top 11 where Rotties.

Emilio I got my Dobe from Leidenchaft Kennels, after searching the globe for months trying to find a real working dobe, I ended up finding what I was looking for a 2 hour drive away! lol


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Willaim Somers said:


> Only GSD at the USA nationals are you sure? I don't watch the GSD's much but I recall seeing the 94 or 92 USA Nationals and 4 of the top 11 where Rotties.


2000 was the last year other breeds allowed to compete at the USA Nationals


----------



## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

Willaim Somers said:


> Emilio I got my Dobe from Leidenchaft Kennels, after searching the globe for months trying to find a real working dobe, I ended up finding what I was looking for a 2 hour drive away! lol


Is this their website? http://www.leidenschaftkennels.ca/present.htm It says they no longer have dobes.. I have a friend who is always looking for a good one.


----------



## Willaim Somers (Jan 17, 2009)

Thanks for the info Mike, I guess they got tried of all the Fatwielers showing up and showing well! lol

Emilio that is the web site, and sadly they currently have no Dobes. Though I am pretty sure you will see that change in the future. [-o<


----------



## Amy Swaby (Jul 16, 2008)

Lynda Myers said:


> I'm new to and have chosen to work with 2 of the off breeds (Amer. Bulldog and Pitbull) I feel that both breeds with the right drives and training can and do hold their own in a world dominated by Furries. But only time, wise breeding and training can how far they can go up the ladder.


.... WHY? As a fancier of the APBT I don't mind seeing the few people who work a few dos for fun but imho the APBT is NOT a breed for this. They are not a guardian breed nor should they be. The APBT by proper standard should be so friendly they make a crap dog for real work (as in a willingness to go for a person rather than just seeing the sleeve as a toy) I'm sorry but I hope your vision of the APBT never comes to reality as it is simpyl a perversion of what the breed should be. 

An APBT that wants to go at a human should be as much a stigma as a working collie with no desire to herd. Not every athlete needs to be a boxer. Not every prey driven breed needs to be in Sch.


----------



## kristin tresidder (Oct 23, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Pit people are normally some of the dumbest ****s on the planet, lets not encourage that.




sadly, many of the people that own pitbulls that are not "pitbull people," lacking the sense to even be "dog people" let alone specialists in a breed. however, there are plenty of incompetent morons in every breed, including the furry dogs; and there are actual "pitbull people" out there breeding, & sometimes even working, good dogs too.


----------



## Jesus Alvarez (Feb 6, 2009)

Lynda Myers said:


> I'm new to and have chosen to work with 2 of the off breeds (Amer. Bulldog and Pitbull) I feel that both breeds with the right drives and training can and do hold their own in a world dominated by Furries. But only time, wise breeding and training can how far they can go up the ladder.


I'm working with an AB too and feel the same way. There are a few SchH3 AB's out there so it can be done.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

A few out of the thousands bred every year. Great odds, where do I sign up ???

I especially like when they go into avoidance and bounce off the sleeve. I am all about that. 

Eventually, with all the complete dipshits out there owning these breeds, they will be banned everywhere. Encouraging this breed to do this work is stupid.


----------



## Jesus Alvarez (Feb 6, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> A few out of the thousands bred every year. Great odds, where do I sign up ???
> 
> I especially like when they go into avoidance and bounce off the sleeve. I am all about that.
> 
> Eventually, with all the complete dipshits out there owning these breeds, they will be banned everywhere. Encouraging this breed to do this work is stupid.


Yes there are thousands bred but not all of them are going into bite sports. :roll:

You know what they say about opinions so, you're entitled to yours.


----------



## kristin tresidder (Oct 23, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> A few out of the thousands bred every year. Great odds, where do I sign up ???


i wonder how many thousands of GSDs are bred each year. i'm especially curious now that AKC released their 2008 states placing the GSD 3rd in total #s registered for the second year in a row and in the top 10 since 1998. that's just AKC litters, not to mention the so-called "working" litters whelped each year, let alone the real legitimate working breeders also producing litters. how many GSDs were SCHH titled last year in the States? the odds might not look so good there either. the staf didn't even make the top 156 breeds (thank god for small favors) and i know we register roughly 500 litters per year. that must be an awful lot of furry shepherd pups running around un-SCHH titled...


----------



## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

I know everyone has their breed that they love, but I don't understand why someone who wants to do sport, gets a dog that is not really bred for it. I didn't buy a gsd to do weight pulling or try to use him as a sled dog, or to hunt vermin. Not that I couldn't do it, just the outcome would not be that good.


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

todd pavlus said:


> I know everyone has their breed that they love, but I don't understand why someone who wants to do sport, gets a dog that is not really bred for it. I didn't buy a gsd to do weight pulling or try to use him as a sled dog, or to hunt vermin. Not that I couldn't do it, just the outcome would not be that good.


I'm going grouse hunting tomorrow:mrgreen:


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Once again the bulldog people cannot see the forest for the trees. 

I remember a time where you didn't have to worry about a pit mauling children. So now that they are, lets try and get them to do the one thing they used to get shot for.........biting humans.

Sure the GSD is number three, but at least it does not have the PR nightmare that the bulldogs have. Not a week goes by and some dumbasses bulldog has mauled someone. 

Do your own thing, call me asshole, I could care less. They will be coming to get your dogs in ten years or so when the public gets sick and tired of the majority of bulldog owners.


----------



## kristin tresidder (Oct 23, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I remember a time where you didn't have to worry about a pit mauling children.


 
right, that must have been when the GSDs and the dobermans were the media's "shock story" darlings... 





Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Do your own thing, call me asshole, I could care less. They will be coming to get your dogs in ten years or so when the public gets sick and tired of the majority of bulldog owners.


no one is calling you anything. 

trust me, many ast/apbt people are well aware of the nightmare of pending legislation everywhere. having been involved with my breed's legislative committee for awhile now, i can tell you that i've never seen a SCHH trained bulldog as the subject of a news story. on the other hand, it's the untrained dogs that are causing the problems - i don't think anyone would debate that. if all of our dogs were obedience trained, agility trained, or even SCHH trained, i think we would be far from the world of hurt we're in now.

i get what you're saying, but i also do not think that we should discourage those with good dogs and a legitimate interest, from working their dog in a sport that will demand high levels of obedience and control - and teach both dog and handler something, while also letting good dogs serve as breed ambassadors, to show the dog community that they're not all just raging, dog killing terrors - just because they're an apbt/ast.









AKC CH One Stone Berek SCHHIII AD FH CDX TT ROH OFA

nightmare attack dog or good example of what other bulldog owners can achieve with the right dog and the right work ethic?


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

The amount of responsible people is the biggest problem. I love the breed, saw some this week when another member of the forum was in town. She had some cuties. 

To suggest that a new person get a pit for Sch.......what are the odds that will happen ?? There is inherent dog aggression in the breed, and there is already a dog in the house. Not really something I would suggest to anyone, as the dog will most likely not work out, and then what ???

Unfortunately, the dang breed has got a really bad rap. I used to manage a boarding facility, and I trusted the pits far more than the cockers, and goldens.

So back to the topic at hand, which is a dog to compete in Sch. I would not choose a bulldog, nor would I suggest it to a household with one dog already, and n00b owners.

One of the pits I saw this week was too much. So cute.


----------



## kristin tresidder (Oct 23, 2008)

fair enough - you're right.


----------



## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

I´m a bit interested in dobes, even if they look a bit dorky with the tail undocked like they are now in many places, nice coat thou for a housedog. Don´t see many of them either in work, but on the other hand there are only few breeding them for working ability foremost. The workingdobes I´ve seen have been pretty nice and would do well in SCH.


----------



## Jesus Alvarez (Feb 6, 2009)

Jeff, you make some valid points. However, there are irresponsible owners in every breed. I adopted a 2 year old male AB several years ago. He was a nightmare! He didn't know basic commands or how to even walk on a leash! On top of that he was dog aggressive. Now he lives in our house with 2 other dogs and loves kids. He's turned into a great family pet. 

I dont love sport more than I love AB's. I'm not gonna ever become so consumed with Sport to the point I'd abandon this breed. I have no ambitions of trying to take my AB to the Nationals or anything like that but I do want to show that it's not only the herders who can have high levels of obedience and control. 

As Kristin said, what better way of letting good dogs serve as breed ambassadors, to show the dog community that they're not all just raging, dog killing terrors.


----------



## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

Erik Berg said:


> I´m a bit interested in dobes, even if they look a bit dorky with the tail undocked like they are now in many places, nice coat thou for a housedog. Don´t see many of them either in work, but on the other hand there are only few breeding them for working ability foremost. The workingdobes I´ve seen have been pretty nice and would do well in SCH.


Dobe in a mini package for ya http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFwkc3fXS4U I wonder how it does the dumbell retrieve


----------



## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

Very cool video Todd.


----------



## Polliana Oliveira (Jan 8, 2009)

Todd. That video was awesome. I don't know how you guys find this stuff


----------



## Alex Corral (Jul 10, 2007)

I think the GSD, Mal, and Dutch are the best for SchH. I mean, after all, _it is _the breed test for the GSD. Jeff makes some good points, and I agree but I also think that if you love your breed, there is no reason you shouldn't try SchH. As long as you know the odds are stacked against you. I have seen some incredible Bulldogs do the work and it is COOL AS HELL to see one that does. I compete with a Boxer, and when my girl got her BH, I think she was the first female Boxer to do it in my state, or at least in a loooong time. It was cool to hear people say it was nice to see a Boxer in SchH. 

The winner of the DVG SchH II for last year was a PB. If people train, compete and title their dogs in SchH, I think it will only help the breed.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: The winner of the DVG SchH II for last year was a PB. If people train, compete and title their dogs in SchH, I think it will only help the breed.

Help the breed do what ???


----------



## Alex Corral (Jul 10, 2007)

Help the breed as far as good PR. You don't see many PB's in the news for obedience.


----------



## Dwyras Brown (Nov 21, 2008)

But unfortunately, the media will only look at the protection part of the training. Not the OB or tracking, just the protection part. So will all of the people who want the dog for status. They'll only look at the bitework part of it and not the rest of the package.


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

PR??? There ya go feature and promote the pitbull in a bite sport spread some more sunshine on the poor bastards.


----------



## Alex Corral (Jul 10, 2007)

I doubt the media has enough time to focus and negatively exploit a well trained Bulldog biting a man with protection gear on. It would be boring. They will stick to all their usual stories.


----------



## Dwyras Brown (Nov 21, 2008)

Alex, I wish that was true. But I can see the headline now, "Vicious pit bull being trained to bite people." Then the same people who want breed bans will talk to the decoy and use what he says and twist it to their advantage.


----------



## Alex Corral (Jul 10, 2007)

D, I agree with you, but doesn't everyone already say that? 

I don't want to get too off-topic. So yes, for SchH, I will say, get a herder. I myself like Bulldogs, so that's what I choose to work.


----------



## Hugo Forno (Apr 15, 2009)

Hillary Hamilton said:


> I love the rottie and boerboel!!! I'm not experienced enough to know about the sport but I'm sure most people love the GSD or Malinois. :-D
> 
> GSD
> Malinois
> ...


What about the Dutch Shepherd, the AB and the Donovan Pinscher?

hugo


----------



## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Hugo Forno said:


> What about the Dutch Shepherd, the AB and the Donovan Pinscher?
> 
> hugo


As a working police dog kennel full of Dutch Malinois and Dutch Shepherds I am not a big fan of the GSD really, but if I was going to get serious about competing in SchH (even with the DVG where I could use a mali) I would find a nice GSD to use for the sport. If I want to win in PSA, ring, or KNPV I would chose a Mali or Dutchie, if I want to win my weight class at weight pulling I will chose a Pit Bull, If I want to win at sheep herding I will chose a Border Collie, and if I want to win at SchH I will chose a GSD.
Of course other breeds will work, but I like to stack the odds in my favor for whatever sport I am training for.


----------



## Evan Harbalis (Apr 12, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> As a working police dog kennel full of Dutch Malinois and Dutch Shepherds I am not a big fan of the GSD really, but if I was going to get serious about competing in SchH (even with the DVG where I could use a mali) I would find a nice GSD to use for the sport. If I want to win in PSA, ring, or KNPV I would chose a Mali or Dutchie, if I want to win my weight class at weight pulling I will chose a Pit Bull, If I want to win at sheep herding I will chose a Border Collie, and if I want to win at SchH I will chose a GSD.
> Of course other breeds will work, but I like to stack the odds in my favor for whatever sport I am training for.


 
Here Here Mike ;-) Well said.....

Cheers,
Evan
www.lexicon.net/vonultimate


----------



## Evan Harbalis (Apr 12, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> As a working police dog kennel full of Dutch Malinois and Dutch Shepherds I am not a big fan of the GSD really, but if I was going to get serious about competing in SchH (even with the DVG where I could use a mali) I would find a nice GSD to use for the sport. If I want to win in PSA, ring, or KNPV I would chose a Mali or Dutchie, if I want to win my weight class at weight pulling I will chose a Pit Bull, If I want to win at sheep herding I will chose a Border Collie, and if I want to win at SchH I will chose a GSD.
> Of course other breeds will work, but I like to stack the odds in my favor for whatever sport I am training for.





Evan Harbalis said:


> Here Here Mike ;-) Well said.....
> 
> Cheers,
> Evan
> www.lexicon.net/vonultimate


Sorry spelling error - Should read:
Hear Hear Mike  Well said......


----------



## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> As a working police dog kennel full of Dutch Malinois and Dutch Shepherds I am not a big fan of the GSD really, but if I was going to get serious about competing in SchH (even with the DVG where I could use a mali) I would find a nice GSD to use for the sport. If I want to win in PSA, ring, or KNPV I would chose a Mali or Dutchie, if I want to win my weight class at weight pulling I will chose a Pit Bull, If I want to win at sheep herding I will chose a Border Collie, and if I want to win at SchH I will chose a GSD.
> Of course other breeds will work, but I like to stack the odds in my favor for whatever sport I am training for.


Having owned working Dobes, GSD's, Malis and Dutchies I would also pick a good GSD for SchH. Their trainability and being more easy to harness the drive makes them a more appealing option. Having said that the Mali still cleans up in the highest levels of IPO.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I prefer using a tiger for Sch. Oh sure, you don't see them much, but the courage test is amazing. Watch this video closely.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jojNzvtP6LY

This is the kind of untapped power we as dog trainers have yet to un-TAP.

Unfortunately, I keep running short of helpers, as apparently there is some sort of instinctual problems with the tiger needing to swat the helper causing massive amounts of damage to the head and neck area. However, as seen in this film, the grip is undeniably firm.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2FP...E8C6CAF5&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=38

I have been thinking of crossing the two species, as tigers are hard to come by, and they seem to be more prey driven and do not have the mental toughness needed. Lions, however seem to have this in no short supply as seen in this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d543LAcYCHA&feature=related

Until I can breed/train the stupid swatting reflex out of these animals, I will continue to lose helpers at an alarming rate. However, they do seem to be getting quicker, if they manage to avoid the first deadly blow. This would seem to be an effective way to increase speed and technique in what is generally considered the dullest and most pathetic action of all dog sports.

If it does not work out with Sch, I will be starting a KNPV club of my own in Holland. The laws on owning such animals are almost non existant, and at worst will make them reconsider using the types of Dutch shepherd that Dick prefers. I am not sure how to get a tiger to submit to a man looking for a microchip, but perhaps drugs will be involved to avoid carnage. Of course, if they refuse my entrance, due to tempermant issues, carnage will ensue.


----------



## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> but perhaps drugs will be involved .......


I think they may well of been involved when you wrote that last post :twisted:


----------



## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Here you go, I've always wanted one of these. 
http://www.maniacworld.com/liger.jpg
Atracting a sufficient quantity of decoys may pose a problem, plus I heard their B&H sucks...


----------



## Chad Byerly (Jun 24, 2008)

:lol: 








Whatta happy handler, and the fat cat ate the helper(s) 
and half the club that day :smile:


----------



## Amy Swaby (Jul 16, 2008)

Chad Byerly said:


> :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I dislike Lygers they have so many issues since female tigers lack the growth capping gene of the female lion. tigons though, those are cool, they don't have the overgrowth issue.


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Alex Corral said:


> I think the GSD, Mal, and Dutch are the best for SchH. I mean, after all, _it is _the breed test for the GSD. Jeff makes some good points, and I agree but I also think that if you love your breed, there is no reason you shouldn't try SchH. As long as you know the odds are stacked against you. I have seen some incredible Bulldogs do the work and it is COOL AS HELL to see one that does. I compete with a Boxer, and when my girl got her BH, I think she was the first female Boxer to do it in my state, or at least in a loooong time. It was cool to hear people say it was nice to see a Boxer in SchH.
> 
> The winner of the DVG SchH II for last year was a PB. If people train, compete and title their dogs in SchH, I think it will only help the breed.


Sure, the more the "others" stay away from the main events, the less chances they have!! 

In Switzerland, the Rotts, Airedales, Dobermanns, Boxers and Riesenschnauzers have deveoped thier own championships which will eventually lower the standards of these breeds.


----------



## Dale Pitts (Apr 18, 2009)

I have to say I love the GSD and Mal, and the right Dobe is a great looking competitor.


----------



## Iryna Lyashenko (Jun 1, 2008)

Willaim Somers said:


> I was wondering about the lack of Doberman on your list as well, I have a Dobe, and yes it took a lot of time to find a good one, but I would be willing to spend a lot more time and effort looking for a Dobe





Emilio Rodriguez said:


> I have a friend who is always looking for a good one.


Sorry for offtopping, but there is a really working kennel of Dobes here, in Ukraine... The breeded dogs are working champions in serious championships, and the pups prove their working quality throughout the world!


----------



## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Iryna Lyashenko said:


> Sorry for offtopping, but there is a really working kennel of Dobes here, in Ukraine... The breeded dogs are working champions in serious championships, and the pups prove their working quality throughout the world!


Again, sorry to go OT, but thanks for the link...it was worth it to see the pups with the ear stabilizers (or whatever they're called)! Never seen anything like it!! 

Laura


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Here is the video page.

http://www.gratsiano.com/litter-o/ogon-video.htm


----------



## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Iryna Lyashenko said:


> Sorry for offtopping, but there is a really working kennel of Dobes here, in Ukraine... The breeded dogs are working champions in serious championships, and the pups prove their working quality throughout the world!


Well a couple of things. Firstly, I just won $20 on those videos. I am with a friend and when we opened the protection video I made a bet that the dog would do a "Dobie Fly-By" on the courage test, and thanks to the poor nerves of Dobermans Im $20 richer.
Anyways, Im happy to see that some conformation people still try and do working sports with their dogs. 
I actually have a friend of mine who is from the Ukraine and was high up one of the Dobermann clubs in Karkov. I bred to his male he brought with him from Ukraine. He was a son of Melvis Muro. Dog was titled ZKS1 and OKD1 and was a good doberman. Got a couple of good pups from him.

And wow, there is some really gay music on those clips. I even heard the phrase "Ding, Ding, dong" on one of them. Metallica really need to release some more albums in Ukraine lol.


----------



## Michelle Testa (Feb 1, 2008)

I still love my Riesenschnauzers
Enya v Engelskotten SchH3 IPO3 FH Kor+/-3
Ax v.d.Kiwis SchH3 IPO3 FH2


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Here is the video page.
> 
> http://www.gratsiano.com/litter-o/ogon-video.htm


 
 The music! The outfit! The equiptment! 
:-k Were they starting a Conga line?


----------



## Iryna Lyashenko (Jun 1, 2008)

Well.. I don't think everything is so poor... These dogs showed not bad results on the World Championships...9http://www.gratsiano.com/presentation/workdobies/workdobies.htm)
Frankly speaking, the training of the dogs is based only on the enthusiasm an wish (and money - there isn't much... ) of these women... They managed to train them by themselves for the championships... When one well-known european judge visited their kennel and saw the place they trained, the so called blinds, the other equipment, he was shocked... He said then that it was madness and nothing would be worth out of that..! But they went to the *[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]WM IDC 2007 in Slovakia [/FONT]*[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT] and won the 3rd and the 8th places...

Certainly, without any doubt, the financing in the States are higher than in Ukraine...

Here is their video page: http://www.youtube.com/user/Gratsiano

I want to add, that Kharkov is not the place in Ukraine with working dogs anyway... We know here exactly... Kharkov breeds only Dobes for conformation...


----------



## Iryna Lyashenko (Jun 1, 2008)

> The music! The outfit! The equiptment!


I don't think these are the key factor in dog training!..



> Firstly, I just won $20 on those videos.


Well... could you give the links to the right videos with Dobermanns work?..:roll:


----------



## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Iryna Lyashenko said:


> Well.. I don't think everything is so poor... These dogs showed not bad results on the World Championships...9http://www.gratsiano.com/presentation/workdobies/workdobies.htm)
> Frankly speaking, the training of the dogs is based only on the enthusiasm an wish (and money - there isn't much... ) of these women... They managed to train them by themselves for the championships... When one well-known european judge visited their kennel and saw the place they trained, the so called blinds, the other equipment, he was shocked... He said then that it was madness and nothing would be worth out of that..! But they went to the *[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]WM IDC 2007 in Slovakia [/FONT]* and won the 3rd and the 8th places...


And seriously thats a very good effort. I hope that they go on with it even further and do good things.




Iryna Lyashenko said:


> I want to add, that Kharkov is not the place in Ukraine with working dogs anyway... We know here exactly... Kharkov breeds only Dobes for conformation...


I dont know much about the Doberman politics in Ukraine, so you may well be right. All I know is this guy was pretty high up (training director, breed warden) for the Sport and Kynology Dobermann club in Kharkov. He was a full time dog trainer and trained many, many dogs in ZKS, OKD, Protection, Police, etc and he took his training very seriously. His dogs were good, well trained animals. He was a big believer in both conformation and working. He did go back to Kharkov recently for a holiday and was not happy with where the Dobermanns had gone now in his club and city, maybe what you said is what he was not so happy about.


----------



## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Iryna Lyashenko said:


> Well... could you give the links to the right videos with Dobermanns work?..:roll:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQVNq7MQ86E&feature=related
For the Dobie flyby. Its nothing personal, its just a Dobie thing thats ingrained in the breed now.


----------



## Brigita Brinac (Jun 29, 2008)

MALINOIS...hmmm is there anything else??

Come to think of it and for:


Police work
Military
FR
MR
BR
KNPV
SAR
Flyball
Agility
PP
OB
=D>\\/


----------



## Iryna Lyashenko (Jun 1, 2008)

Christopher Jones said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQVNq7MQ86E&feature=related


Thank you!;-) This is a dog from Gratsiano kennel! *[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]TAHI-REME GERETT -[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] [/FONT]*http://www.gratsiano.com/presentation/gerett/gerett.htm


> For the Dobie flyby. Its nothing personal, its just a Dobie thing thats ingrained in the breed now.


Well.. really it happens in all breeds - can it depend on preparing the dog?;-)


----------



## Iryna Lyashenko (Jun 1, 2008)

Christopher Jones said:


> I dont know much about the Doberman politics in Ukraine, so you may well be right. All I know is this guy was pretty high up (training director, breed warden) for the Sport and Kynology Dobermann club in Kharkov. He was a full time dog trainer and trained many, many dogs in ZKS, OKD, Protection, Police, etc and he took his training very seriously. His dogs were good, well trained animals. He was a big believer in both conformation and working. He did go back to Kharkov recently for a holiday and was not happy with where the Dobermanns had gone now in his club and city, maybe what you said is what he was not so happy about.


Exactly! It's a pity but this is a sad situation here!..:-( The only place you can find the working dogs is tha kennel I speak about! They pay a lot of attention to training and breeding!
Anyway, may be some dogs in Kharkov are still not bad: my own female is from there. Our farther is quite successful in Schutzhund, and his sister - our aunt - is a Champion of Ukraine in drug search, she works in Kharkov Customs.:smile: I can say that my dog is inclined to search nose work as well, and her tracking is quite successful.


----------



## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Iryna Lyashenko said:


> Well.. really it happens in all breeds - can it depend on preparing the dog?;-)


It realy is a problem in the Doberman, more so than other breeds. When I watch Doberman courage tests from high level comps, it would almost be 50% of them I see doing flybys. Its even got a name "Dobie Flyby".
The best explanation I have seen about it was by a German man who breeds and trains working Dobermans in Germany.
I will copy his post here word for word.
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]"In my opinion there are two reasons for the fly by. 
First the genetic set of the dog. Real good training may help, but can not solve the problem. 
Second, bad training. Dobermanns are know to learn quick. Unfortunately one can spend month and years for tracking and retrieving but the stuff that one do not want, is teached in a second.








Young Dobermanns can perform absolutely great. All are impressed, trainer, helper and owner see the futur all breed world working champion in front of their eyes. 
Then preparation for this target begins. More pressure, different helpers differnt training areas and so on. 
Then comes the unlucky day. The first fly by. 
All are confused and not prepared. Maybe the helper feels it was his fault and then makes the major fault and gives a easy bite. 
The dogs reaction will be: Wow! Great! 
And then you will have the bug in the system. 
For me it took also years and the damage of some nice dogs to see this. 
Now, as I feel no proper grip, I rise the sleeve and give the dog a hard landing. Then go after it with as much pressure as possible. 
A good dog will learn then, that a fly by is not a good choice. 

Need to add: It is also bad habit to give a dog a friendly bite when it fails in trail. The result may be the same. 
It is easyer to fail than to fight.[/FONT][/FONT]"


----------



## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Iryna Lyashenko said:


> Exactly! It's a pity but this is a sad situation here!..:-( The only place you can find the working dogs is tha kennel I speak about! They pay a lot of attention to training and breeding!
> Anyway, may be some dogs in Kharkov are still not bad: my own female is from there. Our farther is quite successful in Schutzhund, and his sister - our aunt - is a Champion of Ukraine in drug search, she works in Kharkov Customs.:smile: I can say that my dog is inclined to search nose work as well, and her tracking is quite successful.


I actually started my working dog aventure with some really good working dobermans. Our first male we bred and kept untill this day is still the most aggressive, sharpest dog I have ever owned. He was that old type crazy, sharp dog.


----------



## Iryna Lyashenko (Jun 1, 2008)

*Christopher Jones*, thank you!O
The dog in the picture even looks as a *real *dobermann!









But... about flybies.. Shouldn't the helpers and instructors do the preparing work designed for correcting this? As in this video?..


----------



## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Iryna Lyashenko said:


> *Christopher Jones*, thank you!O
> The dog in the picture even looks as a *real *dobermann!
> 
> 
> ...


They do all that training and then some. 99 times out of a hundred, alls good. Then you see one, then another and then it becomes apart of the possibilities for the dog, one trick in his bag.
Compared to GSD's, Malis and Dutchies the Dobermann doesnt like, and looks for a way out of anything uncomfortable. You would have seen it with your dogs in general life. Wont sit down fully on the cold wet grass, dont like cold and rain, get used to sleeping on soft blankets. 
The drive and nerve is the issue, along with the Doberman always looking for the easy way to do something.
Heres a discussion about the matter. 
http://www.network54.com/Forum/200717/message/1237410459/ok+new+topic+lets+get+it+going!!


----------



## Iryna Lyashenko (Jun 1, 2008)

Christopher Jones said:


> They do all that training and then some. 99 times out of a hundred, alls good. Then you see one, then another and then it becomes apart of the possibilities for the dog, one trick in his bag.
> Compared to GSD's, Malis and Dutchies the Dobermann doesnt like, and looks for a way out of anything uncomfortable. You would have seen it with your dogs in general life. Wont sit down fully on the cold wet grass, dont like cold and rain, get used to sleeping on soft blankets.
> The drive and nerve is the issue, along with the Doberman always looking for the easy way to do something.
> Heres a discussion about the matter.
> http://www.network54.com/Forum/200717/message/1237410459/ok+new+topic+lets+get+it+going!!


Thank you for the link: I wil read it carefully!


> Compared to GSD's, Malis and Dutchies the Dobermann doesnt like, and looks for a way out of anything uncomfortable. You would have seen it with your dogs in general life. Wont sit down fully on the cold wet grass, dont like cold and rain, get used to sleeping on soft blankets


I wouldn't say so...:? It certainly depends on treating them! Here are the videos from the North of Russia (Murmansk) - the Dobe of 9 years successfully does the Russian Ring at about -40 or lower! Without any clothes! He is a fighter byu nature and he was brought up in this way!
And I know not few of GSDs here which live on the sofas! So, it depends!;-)


----------



## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Iryna thanks for posting that video that bouv was a little ripper and the training looked nice the bouvs grip at the end was very good.


----------



## Iryna Lyashenko (Jun 1, 2008)

brad robert said:


> Iryna thanks for posting that video that bouv was a little ripper and the training looked nice the bouvs grip at the end was very good.


O It's Giant Schnauzer there!

And just for comparison, just to show that the situation may worsen in every breed: this is a video from the work check from National Championship of Giant Schnauzers in Russia.


----------



## Iryna Lyashenko (Jun 1, 2008)

And this is video of Dobermann work which was trained as that Giant Schnauzer above, even the same team! O


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Seriously, these are some below average dogs.


----------



## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Seriously, these are some below average dogs.


I think there just trying to show these dogs are still capable of doing work even if its not at the highest level


----------



## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Iryna Lyashenko said:


> O It's Giant Schnauzer there!
> 
> And just for comparison, just to show that the situation may worsen in every breed: this is a video from the work check from National Championship of Giant Schnauzers in Russia.


Wow, that was depressing. The Giant had a good reputation with my Ukraninan friend for their working abilities in Russia. Thats just terrible. 
Hey, I was wondering as you seem to be able to lay your hands on lots of Russian videos, do you know of any ZKS videos on the internet? I would love to see how this program is.


----------



## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

brad robert said:


> I think there just trying to show these dogs are still capable of doing work even if its not at the highest level


I think he may have been refering to this video mainly. http://photofile.ru/users/leraboitsova/video/v81781930e1/view/


----------



## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Christopher Jones said:


> I think he may have been refering to this video mainly. http://photofile.ru/users/leraboitsova/video/v81781930e1/view/


Ok sorry my mistake they really are rank thanks for straightening that up christopher.


----------



## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Jesus Alvarez said:


> I'm working with an AB too and feel the same way. There are a few SchH3 AB's out there so it can be done.


 
A friend of mine Wade Wilde owns an AB bitch Wild West's Anne Oakley....I was the decoy for her 2 and 3. She held her ground with the best of them. 

HOT and also one of his breedings. 

I think it's a great training, breeding accomplishment for someone to take a breed not really known for bite work and achieveing success better than other dogs in the breed. 

Is there anything determential about trying to do this with an off beat breed?

I also think that you have to look at people goals. Not everyone is trying to get HIT or win a worlds. 

In fact I know a guy who was won a worlds....The training accomplishment he holds most dear to him? Putting a 2 on a Malinois that left everything to be desired. He said he learned more from that dog than any of his his prestigous accomplishments. I can respect that.


----------



## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Everyone knows the next big thing is the schutzhund lizard. Just look at the speed of entry and full grip on the courage test:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePvReEoc32w


----------



## Iryna Lyashenko (Jun 1, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Seriously, these are some below average dogs.


Not *some*! If you saying that about this video http://photofile.ru/users/leraboitso...781930e1/view/!!!
It's a shame on the breed! And I can assure you, that our people in this sphere are seriously worried about this situation!



Christopher Jones said:


> Wow, that was depressing. The Giant had a good reputation with my Ukraninan friend for their working abilities in Russia. Thats just terrible.
> Hey, I was wondering as you seem to be able to lay your hands on lots of Russian videos, do you know of any ZKS videos on the internet? I would love to see how this program is.


Yes, horrible!I may tell you the secret: most certificates in the test are bought!
About videos: 
Frankly speaking, in Ukraine there is very few places which can practice ZKS - we are engaged in IPO mainly! But I will look in Russia!


----------



## Iryna Lyashenko (Jun 1, 2008)

By the way, I looked through this video with long attack on this page http://www.gratsiano.com/litter-o/ogon-video.htm (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gT-8jSd4iwY&feature=player_embedded) again - I didn't see there any fly by!!!:-s


----------



## Josh Queen (May 26, 2009)

I have an American Bulldog, and can honestly say will prob never change to another breed. In my opinion they are one of the most underrated all around working dogs!


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Considering how many of them bounce off the sleeve on a regular basis, I can see why they are underrated.


----------



## Michael Santana (Dec 31, 2007)

Jeff....PACKEN!


Added later: Damn he beat me to it LOL


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Wouldn't be the first time I have heard that. LOL


----------



## Guest (May 27, 2009)

I'm an APBT guy and have been my whole freakin life and I would never use one in any protection sport. They are a totally inappropriate breed for that work. 

IMHO I'd choose a Mal or GSD any day over any bull breed for protection work. Not to say that there aren't some great ABs out there but by and large, it takes a great AB to compare to an average Mal or GSD.

If my life depended on it, I'd choose the APBT to pull weight, catch an escaped bull or hog, do on-lead detection work of any kind or to be my lap dog over any breed in a heartbeat. You need a dog that won't quit, APBT is it. Right tool for the right job. ABs are fun too, but they eat too much.


----------



## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Josh Queen said:


> I have an American Bulldog, and can honestly say will prob never change to another breed. In my opinion they are one of the most underrated all around working dogs!


----------



## Josh Queen (May 26, 2009)

Dang, you guys are harsh.......I appreciate the warm welcome!


----------



## Guest (May 27, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Considering how many of them bounce off the sleeve on a regular basis, I can see why they are underrated.


I see where you're coming from as far as Bull breeds not being up to protection sports but I don't know about all that bouncing off sleeves stuff. Sounds like whoever was working those bouncing dogs never worked a bulldog before or the dogs were all overweight Johnson sour mugs with no jaw structure to speak of. Most point eared people don't have a clue as to how a bulldog should be worked, on OR off the field. That being said, any dog that needs to be coddled or worked almost exclusively in prey to succeed probably has no business in protection sports and certainly not in personal protection work. :roll:


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

It is avoidance. The breeds are not supposed to work the way people are trying to work them, and they come in and don't open their mouths.

THere are a few of these dogs that are pretty dang good at this stuff. Chris Fraize had a very nice APBT, and Troy Seaton's Americanbulldog Capone was real nice. There are others, but so few.

Most AB breeders are not breeding for work, I imagine the percentages are horribly low, and the "performance" lines are mixed with APBT's. 

Too hard, too weird.


----------



## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Josh Queen said:


> Dang, you guys are harsh.......I appreciate the warm welcome!


Yep, Jeff and a few others ****tards are ****ing harsh, but don't take it personal, they are just practicing for "Grumpy Old Men, With Dogs, part II"


----------



## Josh Queen (May 26, 2009)

Im ok with it, used to it actually, my sch. club mainly consists of the GC and Mal's.....I get tons of crap about having a big, chunky, lazy, non athletic bully.....who cant breathe......etc


----------



## Guest (May 29, 2009)

Yep... you hit the nail on the head Jeff! It is Avoidance... due to extremely high bite threshold combined with extremely high bite inhibition... towards humans that is. 



Jeff Oehlsen said:


> It is avoidance. The breeds are not supposed to work the way people are
> trying to work them, and they come in and don't open their mouths.
> 
> THere are a few of these dogs that are pretty dang good at this stuff. Chris Fraize had a very nice APBT, and Troy Seaton's Americanbulldog Capone was real nice. There are others, but so few.
> ...


----------



## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

It does depen a bit on lines/famely.
The dog I train for Sch now somtimes do a bit like that, she can slam full power in to the decoy but not oben the moth, She takes him on the way down and gets a nice grip. but it aint right . The dogs in the pics has nothing like that, Nither her sister and nither my dogs brother. 

First time on a sleew/first time on man. 
Lera:


----------



## Kat LaPlante (May 17, 2009)

Jesus Alvarez said:


> Yes there are thousands bred but not all of them are going into bite sports. :roll:
> 
> You know what they say about opinions so, you're entitled to yours.


----------



## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

Hillary Hamilton said:


> I love the rottie and boerboel!!! I'm not experienced enough to know about the sport but I'm sure most people love the GSD or Malinois. :-D
> 
> GSD
> Malinois
> ...



Labs, hands down.


----------



## georgia estes (Nov 3, 2009)

I don't know about SchH because I do PSA but I enjoy my off breed dog. (donovan pinscher) Gives it a little variation out there.  As a whole, the herders do dominate though.


----------



## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

For me it comes down to a dog that works well..that is my main priority, breed is secondary. All things being equal I would much rather work something different but I won’t make excuses for any breed if it doesn’t cut it. 

I lucked out with my first dog. She was a Pit Bull I rescued and she competed with and beat GSD and Malinois that were National and World competitors. We made it to SchH 3/Regionals. After her I only wanted to work Am Staffs or APBTs, but never got higher then a BH with any of them after her. So I got my first GSD from Germany, soon afterwards tried my first Malinois.

Since then I have owned a Doberman, a few Malinois, Dutch Shepherds, American Bulldogs, Bullmastiffs, a Central Asian and German Shepherds.
Have washed out a number of dogs over the years and right now I am working with 2 Bulldogs(one is just a pup), one German Shepherd(SchH 3), one Malinois(BH), one Dutch Shepherd. 

You can have a Malinois, DS or AB that works as well or better then a GSD but you will probably have to go through a few to find one with the same hardness, nerve strength, intensity and over all work ability that a good GSD has.
I usually recommend new people to the sport if they want to have some success to try a GSD first then if you still want something different later you have some handling/training experience to fall back on.

Bouncing off the sleeve with a mature, well trained dog(trial ready dog!!) IMO is a nerve issue. I have seen it in all breeds.


----------

