# Pinch Collar - What age do you introduce



## JOHN WINTERS

Just curious for those folks that use a pinch collar, how old was your dog when you first introduced the pinch collar, is 7 months to young?


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## Joby Becker

depends on the dog and how you are gonna use it...

Personally,I think 7 months is a good age...depending again on the dog and the training style.

Others will have varying opinions...some will say never...some will say 4 months LOL


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## Kat LaPlante

I started about 18 months. I dont need it anymore as I moved to an ecollar, my dog is way more responsive to it and doesn't shut down like he does with the prong. I would likely not use one again unless I had a severe issue. Have you looked at the "dominant dog collars" on the leerburg site? I am anxious to talk to someone who has used them, they look like they solve alot of collar position problems


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## Thomas Barriano

Kat LaPlante said:


> I started about 18 months. I dont need it anymore as I moved to an ecollar, my dog is way more responsive to it and doesn't shut down like he does with the prong. I would likely not use one again unless I had a severe issue. Have you looked at the "dominant dog collars" on the leerburg site? I am anxious to talk to someone who has used them, they look like they solve alot of collar position problems


Hi Kat,

Dominant dog collars are great for choking a dog out or
what I call "isolating the behavior" You lift the front feet off the ground and when the dog runs out of air, he quits fighting/struggling. They are worthless for any kind of correction.
If you decide to try one, Google nylon choke or nylon slip collar.
The same collar for 1/3 the price


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## Tammy St. Louis

what are you wanting to use the prong for ? heeling ? or ?


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## Guest

8 -12 weeks


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## Jerry Lyda

Depends on the dog. When I start young dogs on it I NEVER use it as a correction. I let them use it as a correction, in other words they will correct themselves if they pull hard against me while walking. I never use it as a correction devise until the dog is trained right from wrong and understands right from wrong. Need to be fair with the dog.


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## Guest

Jerry Lyda said:


> Depends on the dog. When I start young dogs on it I NEVER use it as a correction. I let them use it as a correction, in other words they will correct themselves if they pull hard against me while walking. I never use it as a correction devise until the dog is trained right from wrong and understands right from wrong. Need to be fair with the dog.


So you putting a prong collar on the dog is not using it as a corrective device? Or is the young dog putting the prong collar on it's own neck by itself and then using the collar to correct itself? How do you train "right from wrong" exactly? How young is a "young dog" 8 weeks? 8 months?


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## JOHN WINTERS

I was planning on using it for heeling work along with fine tuning sit's and downs and some other basic obedience work for schutzhund. My dog does them but he is lazy about them so I'm looking to correct that behavior.


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## Jerry Lyda

Vin Chiu, You have alot to learn. If you think a young dog or for that matter an older dog can and will put a prong collar own it's self and correct its self, I have a bridge that goes to Europe I'll sell you.

Come to Ga. and sign up for handler classes and then I'll teach you.


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## Tammy St. Louis

I do the same Jerry when i first put on a prong on a dog in class i always put it on both rings so it is not a choke collar, and then i let the dog do the work , most pull against it , dont like the feeling stop pulling i praise, I dont POP them on the prong until they are understanding how they can turn of pressure themselves, and are now not minding the feel , some dogs i will POP right away as they could give a shit about having a prong on, so i get a bit tougher..

i think 7 months is fine to start the dog off , 
I will put them on young dogs 4 months or so , just to stop yanking on thier neck and so on , sometimes it s just easier, and the people dont want to put the time into traiing, so its a easy way to get nice heeling,


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## andrew kurtowicz

Jody Butler said:


> 8 -12 weeks


 
by 8-12 weeks mine are on a fully charged tri-tronics...lmao


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## Howard Gaines III

Nothing works better like great and clear instruction. Tools can cheapen the instructional skills!!!


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## Bob Scott

Howard Gaines III said:


> Nothing works better like great and clear instruction. Tools can cheapen the instructional skills!!!


 :-# :grin::grin::grin::grin: :wink:


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## Faisal Khan

Jerry Lyda said:


> Depends on the dog. When I start young dogs on it I NEVER use it as a correction. I let them use it as a correction, in other words they will correct themselves if they pull hard against me while walking. I never use it as a correction devise until the dog is trained right from wrong and understands right from wrong. Need to be fair with the dog.


Very well said and exactly how it was described to me by our TD.


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## Mo Earle

I start at 6-7 months, of course depends on the dog and the lesson- agree with what Jerry said- no correction until the dog understands the lesson first....apply the equipment appropiately, use it correctly and be fair.


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## Butch Cappel

The right age would be when the human feels like it.

What Howard said; Nothing works better like great and clear instruction. Tools can cheapen the instructional skills!!!


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## Raluca Alb

I started using the pinch collar on my mal at 5 months of age, because he was getting really out of control. He's very pain/correction resistant.


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## Howard Gaines III

Raluca Alb said:


> I started using the pinch collar on my mal at 5 months of age, because he was getting really out of control. He's very pain/correction resistant.


 So what is "out of control?"
We put kids on drugs b/c parents don't want to learn how to be parents...OOC dogs...love to know more!


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## Jennifer Coulter

I wish to share some current prong noob musings. 

I started acclimatizing my mal pup to the prong at 5 months, I would have her wear it for a time, but never attach it to any leash. She was fully dragging me everywhere by then and putting herself into that "zone" by doing it. You know that "built my own drive" zone that mals are good at.

I could certainly get her to walk loose on the lead for short distances with no distractions, and had started to do some change of direction stuff on a flat collar, teaching her to pay attention. The reality of getting my dog places I need to on lead made it so I couldn't manage things the way I wanted to until she was fully trained not to pull.

I thought I would use the prong just to aleviate the pulling. Just let her pull against it, and "self correct" as has been discussed here.

I started by doing some leash pressure work, a la Michael Ellis, figuring it would be good intro to the prong, and could be useful for heeling later. It went well.

So in the real world the prong has cut down on the pulling for sure, but it has in no way stopped it. She has no problem walking with some pressure on it, the line is not slack by magic. If there is something she *really* wants she has no problem pulling *hard* on it. She might give a little head shake/or not, but will pull none the less.

In a couple short weeks it already seems like she is building a tolerance to it. She can pull harder on it with no effect. Not something I want.

I also have been thinking about superstitious behavior and wondering if when she sees a kid, and would love to rush up and visit, and instead meets with the annoyance of the prong, does she associate it with what she is pulling towards? Is that something I should worry about? I dunno.

I also find that though my goal is to not "pop-correct" with the prong at this age. But... if she makes me frustrated, and she is wearing it, there is an increased chance that might happen Even if she doesn't understand fully why. I am pretty patient, but not perfect.

So...all this said, I have backed off the prong use some. I am trying to do more engagement work in public and some more actually teaching her not to pull in the mean time.

I still do need the prong occasionally, to get from point a to b without being fully dragged, but am really thinking a little more about it now.

Like I said, just some musings. No real advice here.


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## Gerry Grimwood

I stopped using a prong about 6 months or something like that. Similar to what Jennifer said, my dog would just pull through it whether dead or live ring. 

It does make it easier to go anywhere, but one day I was rubbing his neck and there were lumps..turned out to be crusty festered lumps that you could pull hair and get a chunk of puss or whatever with it.

It wasn't from corrections,the collar was a large diameter HS.. just too much abrasion during any type of outings. I just use a flat leather now. Is there anyhing faster than a microwave ??


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## Tammy St. Louis

i have never seen or heard of abbrasions from a prong before, i use them all the time at class on various breeds and temperments or dogs, i use med HS , rounded tips , i did have one time marks from a small prong as the tips are sharper and pickier , on a broken coat jack russel 

anyone else heard of marks caused from a prong, not saying it didnt happen gerry or that it was misuse or anything just wondering if this happens often 

So far my 6 month guy has only been on a flat for training , i recently put him on a e- collar to ensure recall , his recall was pretty great but there was times he would blow me off cuz something was more intereseting, i didnt want that to become a habit or option, so he wears it to ensure a recall but all other training is on a flat


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I have no problem with the pinch, but where do the slow sits or whatever come from ? Did he have them from the start ? I would work on getting a faster sit first before I went to the pinch. Maybe the dog doesn't really get it yet.


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## Gerry Grimwood

Tammy St. Louis said:


> i have never seen or heard of abbrasions from a prong before, i use them all the time at class on various breeds and temperments or dogs, i use med HS , rounded tips , i did have one time marks from a small prong as the tips are sharper and pickier , on a broken coat jack russel
> 
> anyone else heard of marks caused from a prong, not saying it didnt happen gerry or that it was misuse or anything just wondering if this happens often


You also have 9 dogs that will take an afternoon stroll down a country road together..while singing some Cat Stevens song, because you haven't heard of it before don't mean it hasn't happened.

Misuse my hairy white ass, what color is the sky in your world ??


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## Jeff Oehlsen

My GOODNESS. LOL

I have seen pinch collars skiff up a dogs neck. The great thing is with repeated skiffing, the dog gets white hairs in little spots all over the neck. AWESOME !!!!!!!

And seriously, the 9 junker dogs going down a trail singing, too funny.


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## Tammy St. Louis

i didnt accuse you of misuse, re read the post ,
just said i have not seen marks on any clients dogs so far on the med HS 
wondered if anyone else had 
i know there are cheaper ones that are sharper or blunter which i can see making marks 

PS not sure who cat stevens is , but we moslty sing mary poppins songs, when i walk 9 dogs lol


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: but we moslty sing mary poppins songs, when i walk 9 dogs lol

Was it written by cat stevens at least ??


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## Gerry Grimwood

Tammy St. Louis said:


> PS not sure who cat stevens is


Having that information..you cannot be trusted :razz:


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## Bob Scott

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I stopped using a prong about 6 months or something like that. Similar to what Jennifer said, my dog would just pull through it whether dead or live ring.
> 
> It does make it easier to go anywhere, but one day I was rubbing his neck and there were lumps..turned out to be crusty festered lumps that you could pull hair and get a chunk of puss or whatever with it.
> 
> It wasn't from corrections,the collar was a large diameter HS.. just too much abrasion during any type of outings. I just use a flat leather now. Is there anyhing faster than a microwave ??


Do you use an e-collar?
They can very easily cause sores on a dogs neck if left on to long. NOT because of the electricity but just how tight they sometimes need to be.


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## James Downey

JOHN WINTERS said:


> Just curious for those folks that use a pinch collar, how old was your dog when you first introduced the pinch collar, is 7 months to young?


As soon as a pinch fits, my dogs where it every time we train. in the begging, I tap the collar on the dogs neck while they are bitting. And tap, I just pull it enough to move it ever so little. I hope the dog will pair it with being in drive. 

I use the pinch to clean up sits and downs. Like jeff said, I make sure I have trained it to be fast by offering rewards immediatly. And by immediate I mean I do not care if the dog is straight or even slow on the sit. I just reward when the butt hits the ground. a dog with good drive will catch on and start sitting faster. realizing the faster thier ass hits the ground the quicker the reward comes. but if the dog is still a bit slow. I will tap the collar as I give the command. once I see the sit get faster regularly. I will start to tap it after the dog has sat. You may ask why do I correct after the dog has preformed the behavior. I am not correcting bad behavior. I am trying to get the dog to beat the tap on the pinch. I learned that one from Terry Arnold. She was an AKC Obedience Champion back about 10 or more years ago. She wrote a book called "steppin up to success"....good OB book.


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## James Downey

Tammy St. Louis said:


> i have never seen or heard of abbrasions from a prong before, i use them all the time at class on various breeds and temperments or dogs, i use med HS , rounded tips , i did have one time marks from a small prong as the tips are sharper and pickier , on a broken coat jack russel
> 
> anyone else heard of marks caused from a prong, not saying it didnt happen gerry or that it was misuse or anything just wondering if this happens often
> 
> So far my 6 month guy has only been on a flat for training , i recently put him on a e- collar to ensure recall , his recall was pretty great but there was times he would blow me off cuz something was more intereseting, i didnt want that to become a habit or option, so he wears it to ensure a recall but all other training is on a flat


 
I am going to go out on a limb here. I have seen Marks and abbrasions from a Pinch. and I mean this with all seriousness....It's generally not with new trainers or really experienced trainers. its with trainers whom know enough just to be dangerous. And for lack of experience and knowledge they just pull harder on the tab. Then when this does not work....Out comes the Electric. And then we have one more dog that either bites his handler, or says **** it and has trust issues till his dying day. Then comes the most entertaining part. The deillusional thinking from the handler that is was the dogs fault.


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## Bob Scott

James Downey said:


> I am going to go out on a limb here. I have seen Marks and abbrasions from a Pinch. and I mean this with all seriousness....It's generally not with new trainers or really experienced trainers. its with trainers whom know enough just to be dangerous. And for lack of experience and knowledge they just pull harder on the tab. Then when this does not work....Out comes the Electric. And then we have one more dog that either bites his handler, or says **** it and has trust issues till his dying day. Then comes the most entertaining part. The deillusional thinking from the handler that is was the dogs fault.



\\/ I think I'm gonna hang this one on my wall!


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## Twon Davis

i agree with Butch.


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## Raluca Alb

Howard Gaines III said:


> So what is "out of control?"
> We put kids on drugs b/c parents don't want to learn how to be parents...OOC dogs...love to know more!


For me OOC meant being dragged through bush fences whenever the dog felt like it. Also meant not being able to correct him in a way that he would respect. I did try reasoning with him before that. Surprisingly, it didn't work...

Prong itself isn;t effective if placed incorrectly or, most important, if the leash is jerked in the wrong moment...same with any other means of physical correction, I guess.


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## Raluca Alb

out of control = out of *my* control. There! :grin:


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## Jack Roberts

It all depends on the dog. I will use the correction collar that suits the dog.

Some of my dogs only needed a little pop with a flat collar as a young pup to walk on the leash. Some dogs have required more. I always try to start out with the most gentle and move up. 

I tried the flat collar, moved to a martingale collar, and then to a prong for walking my current dog when he was about 5 months. I let him hit the end of the line himself, using Kohler's method for teaching heeling. A couple of times and the dog learned to walk nicely. I use to just use a chock collar but like the prong better now. It helps with a strong or stubborn dog to let them have the self correction. 

I train the dog with motivation and really no longer have to use any correction but as a young pup and learning manners, he wore a prong collar. I associated corrections with the word "no" and use "un huh" when training, if he begins to move away from what I'm trying to get him to do. I also use some tones for right behavior that lets the dog know that he is doing good. 

Your voice used as a tool is great as the dog becomes older. It seems like a lot of people forget about using their voice or communicating with the dog while training. I found that it is helpful to have calm voice when training. The dogs seem to respond better.


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## Geoff Empey

I've seen a prong mark my dogs neck. The prong was on the smallish side and fitted really well, she was on a long line and someone else did the correction. It was obviously to "hard" of a correction for the way this tool was set up. I've seen dogs have allergic reactions to any of the different types of metals that prongs are made out of as well. So that is always a possibility too.

As for what age to put a prong on pup others have answered it nicely here, though I'll say it is a personal decision based on the pup and what you want to do with it. 

I always tell people that training a K9 any K9 it doesn't matter what collar you use any ways. You could use an aircraft cable as a choke or a sharpened prong or piece of spaghetti ... 

What trains a dog is the handlers guidance nothing else.


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## JOHN WINTERS

Thanks everyone, interesting thread. I've started using the prong as part of our training routine, but only part. I agree, tools won't matter if the training is sloppy or wrong so when I'm working on something new I make sure that I train with only the flat collar and reward (both food and toy) for proper behavior. The prong I use for heeling and correcting things I know he already has learned. It is just one tool in the drawer.


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## Sofie

JOHN WINTERS said:


> Just curious for those folks that use a pinch collar, how old was your dog when you first introduced the pinch collar, is 7 months to young?


over 4 months old. It works great


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