# A'tim son Fun



## Michael Murphy

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/bel...-du-bois-de-la-limite&p=5-generation-pedigree

i think this is Funs pedigree , from A'tim 

just wondering on the bottom half are they all/mostly french ring dogs?


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## Joby Becker

Michael Murphy said:


> http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/bel...-du-bois-de-la-limite&p=5-generation-pedigree
> 
> i think this is Funs pedigree , from A'tim
> 
> just wondering on the bottom half are they all/mostly french ring dogs?


no.


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## Michael Murphy

can you elaborate Joby,
im getting really interested in these nvbk lines, especially dogs out of A'Tim 
from the videos im seeing their pretty good dogs and the pups look like they come loaded in drive.
im curious about consistency though, and nerve


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## Michael Murphy

http://www.likeahurricane.nl/?L=EN&P=1

van de camp is doing knpv work with a lot of nvbk malinois it seems


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## Joby Becker

Michael Murphy said:


> can you elaborate Joby...


no the bottom half is not mostly FR lines.


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## Michael Murphy

nvbk then? whats losh ? and sometimes you just got Ring and other times its Belgium ring, is Ring , belgian or french


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## Joby Becker

Michael Murphy said:


> nvbk then? whats losh ? and sometimes you just got Ring and other times its Belgium ring, is Ring , belgian or french


Micheal... google is your friend...nothing to be scared of, search function is great, even though i think Google may take over the planet someday..


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## Derek Milliken

Breathe Michael, breathe


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## Michael Murphy

But there is definitely dogs that have French ring certificates in his pedigree. Are you saying that they are NVBK bloodline dogs competing in french ring?


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## Christopher Smith

Michael Murphy said:


> Are you saying that they are NVBK bloodline dogs competing in french ring?


To answer your question...Yes. But I think that your are approaching this wrong. I think your quest for knowledge would be better served if you look for type instead of nationality. The reason being is that you don't know what pedigrees are credible. So you can have a dog that is very much a NVBK type dog but is French for many generations.


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## Michael Murphy

i thought french ring dogs needed fci pedigrees?


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## Christopher Smith

Yes, they do.


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## Michael Murphy

That's funs FCI pedigree isn't it


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## Maureen A Osborn

Belgium Ring not French RIng


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## Maureen A Osborn

*BRN 7196 | A'Tim (Dhr. J. Lopez, Geel, België, NVBK 16241) | Viewed: 6474 times |http://www.bloedlijnen.nl/pdfstamboom.php?ID=7196*



x Mechelse Herder (NVBK) Male
Vice Kampioen NVBK Cat I 2002
Belg. Kampioen NVBK Cat I 2003
Grand Prix winnaar 2003
Winnaar meerder wedstijden Belg. Ring
HD A
Geb.datum: 10-09-1997
ZG op show
64 cm schofthoogte, 34 kg
NVBK 16241

Is dezelfde hond als Dovre Fjeld Vasco (LOSH 0816509) Aantal geregistreerde nesten: 0 
Aantal geregistreerde broers en zussen: 1, waarvan 0 KNPV en 0 IPO gecertificeerd 
Aantal nakomelingen: 18, waarvan 1 KNPV en 0 IPO gecertificeerd


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## Maureen A Osborn

Oh, FYI, you can get a blue book in French Ring and compete without a pedigree, you just cant compete in Championships, but you can still title your dog.


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## Carmen van de Kamp

Michael Murphy said:


> http://www.likeahurricane.nl/?L=EN&P=1
> 
> van de camp is doing knpv work with a lot of nvbk malinois it seems



I'm working with a combination of French (Mondio/French Ring) and Belgium lines. But it's common knowledge that in Belgium the FCI and NVBK lines are used through each other, especially NVBK in FCI lines & not being mentioned on the papers of course, just as the thing that A'Tim is the same dog as Dovrefjeld Vasco ;-) only that is known to the entire public.


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## Michael Murphy

Carmen i noticed you use a lot of nvbk line dogs when competing in knpv, do you mind telling us what you like about dogs from nvbk lines , and which bloodlines in the nvbk you like ?


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## Carmen van de Kamp

Michael Murphy said:


> Carmen i noticed you use a lot of nvbk line dogs when competing in knpv, do you mind telling us what you like about dogs from nvbk lines , and which bloodlines in the nvbk you like ?


Then you are not looking close enough. Used 3 NVBK males with FCI papers since I started breeding and only got 1 litter out of those 3 breedings, only when using Evgeny. 
Liked there what I saw in his offspring, but for common KNPV work and for selling not social enough (not only to blame the sire, the dam also gives to the pups & in this case especially, as she is a real dominant strong willed female, but social and the male wasn't as I could only see the mating from a distance. In normal contact he was normal as well. But he was pretty defensive over his female;-))


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## Michael Murphy

Carmen van de Kamp said:


> Then you are not looking close enough. Used 3 NVBK males with FCI papers since I started breeding and only got 1 litter out of those 3 breedings, only when using Evgeny.
> Liked there what I saw in his offspring, but for common KNPV work and for selling not social enough (not only to blame the sire, the dam also gives to the pups & in this case especially, as she is a real dominant strong willed female, but social and the male wasn't as I could only see the mating from a distance. In normal contact he was normal as well. But he was pretty defensive over his female;-))


how would you compare the nerves between your nvbk and knpv dogs/pups, especially environmentally?


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## Carmen van de Kamp

Michael Murphy said:


> how would you compare the nerves between your nvbk and knpv dogs/pups, especially environmentally?



I have open pups that explore & don't hesitate in strange environments, but we already take them to training & see other place from the age of 5 weeks old. I don't know how NVBK breeders do that, but there is a huge amount of KNPV breeders that don't do that & those pups haven't seen anything but their own breeding ground. Which you can at least see the first couple of weeks ;-) 

But again, I only had 1 litter with an NVBK dog, but it looks like your reading over that. ;-)


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## Michael Murphy

the reason i ask you Carmen is that, you have experience with both the nvbk malinois and the knpv dogs, which not many people have.
and your also a experienced trainer who titles dogs in knpv so you know what it takes. so your in a very good position to compare the dogs and their differences. also i think the nvbk lines in that you bred from contain A'tim and zodt in the pedigree, two of the best nvbk malinois (in my opinion) , which makes your perspective even more interesting


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## Katie Finlay

Carmen doesn't make it sound like she has enormous experience in NVBK dogs, Michael. I think that's what she's trying to tell you. 

Carmen, I apologize if I'm wrong and I misunderstood your posts.


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## Joby Becker

not to mention that families of dogs, even from the same discipline can vary greatly..and even vary within the family of dogs, dogs vary, depending on the breedings done.


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## Katie Finlay

And I believe the term "paper hanging" might not be understood fully.

But Michael, I do appreciate your zest and I'm likely to learn something from it!


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## Maureen A Osborn

I'll make it short and sweet, IMHO,most pure KNPV or KVBK lines ds/mals are definately not for someone that doesnt have a lot of dog experience


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## Christopher Jones

Speak to Marcel Alders in Holland as he had a partnership with Mark Deams from Neirlanders nvbk kennel and can compare the two. Speak to Mia Skogster who has had alot to do with knpv dogs and imported a number of nvbk dogs into Finland including E'Jacko.


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## Michael Murphy

knowing you, im sure you have already done that chris :wink:
would you mind giving us a brief summary of your findings?


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## Christopher Smith

Michael Murphy said:


> knowing you, im sure you have already done that chris :wink:
> would you mind giving us a brief summary of your findings?


He told YOU to ask. If you really want to find out about Malinois pedigrees you have to get off of the chat boards and talk to real people. No one is going to answer this type of question on this format.


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## Michael Murphy

Christopher Smith said:


> He told YOU to ask. If you really want to find out about Malinois pedigrees you have to get off of the chat boards and talk to real people. No one is going to answer this type of question on this format.


christopher, your starting to sound like joby but he still gives good feed back in the end 

if you got nothing to add just stay out of the conversation, if chris doesnt want to answer it he wont, he doesnt need you jumping in for him. i asked chris cause his good at explaining stuff, in a way i understand


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## Carmen van de Kamp

Katie Finlay said:


> Carmen doesn't make it sound like she has enormous experience in NVBK dogs, Michael. I think that's what she's trying to tell you.
> 
> Carmen, I apologize if I'm wrong and I misunderstood your posts.





Joby Becker said:


> not to mention that families of dogs, even from the same discipline can vary greatly..and even vary within the family of dogs, dogs vary, depending on the breedings done.


That & I agree with Joby, it also all depends on who's holding the leash....


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## Christopher Jones

Michael Murphy said:


> christopher, your starting to sound like joby but he still gives good feed back in the end
> 
> if you got nothing to add just stay out of the conversation, if chris doesnt want to answer it he wont, he doesnt need you jumping in for him. i asked chris cause his good at explaining stuff, in a way i understand


What CS said is correct Michael. If someone well known talks to me about their experiences with other peoples dogs or bloodlines i am not going to then quote them on a forum and put them in a political no win debate when they most likely wouldnt want to be put in the spotlight in the first place. I appreciate when people give me their feedback and experiences and im not going to repay them by putting it on a public forum in their name.
Not having a go at you, but I am sure you realise just how political the dog world is and how well respected nice people might want to avoid the bullshit.


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## Christopher Smith

Michael Murphy said:


> christopher, your starting to sound like joby but he still gives good feed back in the end
> 
> if you got nothing to add just stay out of the conversation, if chris doesnt want to answer it he wont, he doesnt need you jumping in for him. i asked chris cause his good at explaining stuff, in a way i understand


I'll give you the best advice over the internet you have ever gotten about dogs.

GET OFF OF THE INTERNET AND WORK WITH THE DOGS!!! 

Without doing that you are going to be misled by the bullshit on the internet. Do you really think that the Youtube videos you see of dogs are accurate representations of those dogs? Do you think Malinois pedigrees are worth the paper they are printed on? 

I understand that you are isolated from much of the dog community and have a lot of enthusiasm for the dog game. But in dog training it's better to put the dog away, and do nothing, than it is to give the dog bad training. The internet is bad training. Put yourself away.


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## Carmen van de Kamp

Christopher Smith said:


> I'll give you the best advice over the internet you have ever gotten about dogs.
> 
> GET OFF OF THE INTERNET AND WORK WITH THE DOGS!!!
> 
> Without doing that you are going to be misled by the bullshit on the internet. Do you really think that the Youtube videos you see of dogs are accurate representations of those dogs? Do you think Malinois pedigrees are worth the paper they are printed on?
> 
> I understand that you are isolated from much of the dog community and have a lot of enthusiasm for the dog game. But in dog training it's better to put the dog away, and do nothing, than it is to give the dog bad training. The internet is bad training. Put yourself away.




k: & now I'm off to trial!


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## Michael Murphy

Christopher Smith said:


> I'll give you the best advice over the internet you have ever gotten about dogs.
> 
> GET OFF OF THE INTERNET AND WORK WITH THE DOGS!!!
> 
> Without doing that you are going to be misled by the bullshit on the internet. Do you really think that the Youtube videos you see of dogs are accurate representations of those dogs? Do you think Malinois pedigrees are worth the paper they are printed on?
> 
> I understand that you are isolated from much of the dog community and have a lot of enthusiasm for the dog game. But in dog training it's better to put the dog away, and do nothing, than it is to give the dog bad training. The internet is bad training. Put yourself away.


 
come sit with me in a 3 hour lecture on the global financial crisis and prudential regulation of the banking sector and then you can judge me for wanting to distract myself . without the working dog forum i think i would have shot myself already . im not a fool christopher , a bit immature but not a fool. i know i need the practical knowledge etc....... but this is all i got for now, at least untill i get my next dog . hopefully the frozen semen works :?


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## Joby Becker

_(quote deleted)_

what?


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## Christopher Smith

Michael Murphy said:


> come sit with me in a 3 hour lecture on the global financial crisis and prudential regulation of the banking sector and then you can judge me for wanting to distract myself . without the working dog forum i think i would have shot myself already . im not a fool christopher , a bit immature but not a fool. i know i need the practical knowledge etc....... but this is all i got for now, at least untill i get my next dog . hopefully the frozen semen works :?


http://www.bankersonline.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=cfrm

OR

What lines is is your pupsicle from? 

What do you want to do with him or her?

You said "next dog". What kind of dog do you have now? Do you train it? Videos?


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## Michael Murphy

current dog GSD, his a pet

female pup , some nice knpv lines

hope it the breeding happens [-o<

what am i going to do with it :-o

actually going to practice , obedience, tracking, bite work, object guard . try to learn some knpv style training . am i going to succeed , [-X


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## Tiago Fontes

Michael Murphy said:


> come sit with me in a 3 hour lecture on the global financial crisis and prudential regulation of the banking sector and then you can judge me for wanting to distract myself . without the working dog forum i think i would have shot myself already . im not a fool christopher , a bit immature but not a fool. i know i need the practical knowledge etc....... but this is all i got for now, at least untill i get my next dog . hopefully the frozen semen works :?


 
I hear you on this... I am a lawyer and really understand where you're coming from when it comes to wanting to distract yourself with a topic you enjoy... 

Best advice to give is:

Go out visit some clubs, join one and learn some decoy work on the weekend ;-)... DONT skip classes for dogs... lololol


Have a good one


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## Haz Othman

Lol I am a Social Worker this is one of my refuges' so I hear were your coming from..lol. Dont eat a bullet, buy another dog! 



Tiago Fontes said:


> I hear you on this... I am a lawyer and really understand where you're coming from when it comes to wanting to distract yourself with a topic you enjoy...
> 
> Best advice to give is:
> 
> Go out visit some clubs, join one and learn some decoy work on the weekend ;-)... DONT skip classes for dogs... lololol
> 
> 
> Have a good one


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## Michael Murphy

i dont skip lectures, i just post questions on the forum as well. its called multi tasking :-\"


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## Tiago Fontes

Michael Murphy said:


> i dont skip lectures, i just post questions on the forum as well. its called multi tasking :-\"


Or ADHD. :wink: 


Regards


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## Tiago Fontes

Haz Othman said:


> Lol I am a Social Worker this is one of my refuges' so I hear were your coming from..lol. Dont eat a bullet, buy another dog!


Damn right... lolol


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## Connie Sutherland

Michael, you've had a post edited. We have a no-politics rule here. 

Thank you in advance for adhering to it.


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## Connie Sutherland

And back to the thread:



Originally Posted by Haz Othman _
Lol I am a Social Worker this is one of my refuges' so I hear were your coming from..lol. Dont eat a bullet, buy another dog!
_



Tiago Fontes said:


> Damn right... lolol


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## Maureen A Osborn

Michael, my suggestion to you is to go and meet as many different dogs as you can, from different lines/pedigrees/backgrounds.....you will find a large variation....you need to take the sum of what you want to do with the dog as well as your level of experience with owning a dog such as a mal or ds....there are some lines that are great for beginners and some that even the most experienced handlers have a difficult time with. Where do you live and how far are you willing to travel?


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## Michael Murphy

I live in Australia


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## Katie Finlay

Are there no dogs in Australia? You're getting your advice off this forum from somewhere, no?


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## Paul R. Konschak

Have you talked to Jens and Allison at NordenStamm kennel?


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## Joby Becker

Ralph at Vom Starken has some Nordenstamm dogs, in Melbourne..


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## Michael Murphy

Joby Becker said:


> Ralph at Vom Starken has some Nordenstamm dogs, in Melbourne..



i now your good friends with ralph :wink: saw your conversation with him on another forum, i herd his male is very nice . his got a nordenstamm hassan son , whos a yagus son, iv have herd mixed reviews about Hassan and yagus. 
im probably being a bit ignorant but i prefer the knpv and nvbk malinois over the fci, they just seem to be a lot stronger and also nordenstamm have a long waiting list and getting a pick male or female from one of their top litters would be very difficult and obviously a long wait.
im waiting on a litter from a guy i trust more then any other breeder in australia, its from some nice knpv lines. i hope the breeding works out


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## Katie Finlay

Don't you need to decide what you like between the NVBK and KNPV lines though? As far as I know they are seriously different in many ways?


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## Joby Becker

Michael Murphy said:


> i now your good friends with ralph :wink: saw your conversation with him on another forum, i herd his male is very nice . his got a nordenstamm hassan son , whos a yagus son, iv have herd mixed reviews about Hassan and yagus.
> im probably being a bit ignorant but i prefer the knpv and nvbk malinois over the fci, they just seem to be a lot stronger and also nordenstamm have a long waiting list and getting a pick male or female from one of their top litters would be very difficult and obviously a long wait.
> im waiting on a litter from a guy i trust more then any other breeder in australia, its from some nice knpv lines. i hope the breeding works out


cool...those dogs do go back to lots of Belgian Ring dogs though...just to let you know


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## Joby Becker

Michael Murphy said:


> iv have herd mixed reviews about Hassan and yagus.


I have heard mixed reviews of every dog I have taken an interest in...even dogs that I have owned and loved...


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## Katie Finlay

Joby Becker said:


> I have heard mixed reviews of every dog I have taken an interest in...even dogs that I have owned and loved...


Shoot, ask me about my own dog on a different day of the week and I'll have mixed reviews


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## Martin Koops

Hi Michael,
Have a Hassan Daughter am very happy.

Where possible have always found it better to look at the actual dogs training than rely solely on pedigree or recommendations. After all your personal preference is the most important factor when buying a dog.


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## Michael Murphy

Martin Koops said:


> Hi Michael,
> Have a Hassan Daughter am very happy.
> 
> Where possible have always found it better to look at the actual dogs training than rely solely on pedigree or recommendations. After all your personal preference is the most important factor when buying a dog.


What training have you done with her


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## Ralph Tough

Michael Murphy said:


> i now your good friends with ralph :wink: saw your conversation with him on another forum, i herd his male is very nice . his got a nordenstamm hassan son , whos a yagus son, iv have herd mixed reviews about Hassan and yagus.
> im probably being a bit ignorant but i prefer the knpv and nvbk malinois over the fci, they just seem to be a lot stronger and also nordenstamm have a long waiting list and getting a pick male or female from one of their top litters would be very difficult and obviously a long wait.
> im waiting on a litter from a guy i trust more then any other breeder in australia, its from some nice knpv lines. i hope the breeding works out


Michael, no matter what dog or lines it is, a good dog is a good dog whether it is nvbk, fci, knpv. Pedigrees only represent the breed. Not the working quality of the dog. JMO


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## Michael Murphy

yea i herd you got a nice male ralph, how old is he now


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## Ralph Tough

Michael Murphy said:


> yea i herd you got a nice male ralph, how old is he now


19 months and his hand full! Always have to watch his moves and what his thinking.:-k Be careful what you wish for as it can turn out to be your nightmare. :smile:


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## Michael Murphy

would he bite a hidden sleeve?


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## Ralph Tough

Michael Murphy said:


> would he bite a hidden sleeve?


Michael, as you know here in Australia we cant say much in regards to working dogs that do/trained to bite, so I will leave it to your imagination!! As we may be looked at by the WATCH DOGS ON THE FORUMS.\\/:roll:


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## rick smith

?? does Australia have some weird laws about teaching bite work ??

since it is a rabies free region it is more convenient for me to get a dog from there, but if i am gonna have trouble getting the straight truth out of a breeder or vendor that would be a BIG negative :-(

PM me if it can't be discussed openly
TIA


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## Michael Murphy

I think it's only in some states. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think NSW has that law


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## Ralph Tough

Michael Murphy said:


> I think it's only in some states. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think NSW has that law


Other states are not far behind because of some WANKERS!


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## Michael Murphy

i bet its a group of show dog breeders, probably german shepherd breeders  i hate them with a passion! i have a feeling the demand for their dogs are decreasing, working line dogs are becoming more popular even with families just looking for a good watch dog for their homes. as the truth comes out they cant lie and trick people into purchasing their useless pieaces of shit.
you never know the time of the working dog might be coming back, people are already moving towards more high drive dogs, even in working dogs their leaving the german shepherd and going over to the malinois. thanks to the internet information moves faster, shutzhund/ipo now have to compete with knpv and nvbk dogs. the standards of what is expected of a dog seems to be increasing. or maybe its just me


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## brad robert

Hassan was an awesome dog as was his litter,my friend has a hassan litter mate and it has produced dogs for special forces as did her son its a fantastic line.


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## Katie Finlay

Michael Murphy said:


> i bet its a group of show dog breeders, probably german shepherd breeders  i hate them with a passion! i have a feeling the demand for their dogs are decreasing, working line dogs are becoming more popular even with families just looking for a good watch dog for their homes. as the truth comes out they cant lie and trick people into purchasing their useless pieaces of shit.
> you never know the time of the working dog might be coming back, people are already moving towards more high drive dogs, even in working dogs their leaving the german shepherd and going over to the malinois. thanks to the internet information moves faster, shutzhund/ipo now have to compete with knpv and nvbk dogs. the standards of what is expected of a dog seems to be increasing. or maybe its just me


This is so full of unfounded opinion I don't even know how to respond.


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## Martin Koops

Brad,
Don't use the past tense with Hassan he's not dead just moved to NZ.

My female is from Hassan x Hannah, what's your friends dog name?


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## Joby Becker

Michael Murphy said:


> i bet its a group of show dog breeders, probably german shepherd breeders  i hate them with a passion! i have a feeling the demand for their dogs are decreasing, working line dogs are becoming more popular even with families just looking for a good watch dog for their homes. as the truth comes out they cant lie and trick people into purchasing their useless pieaces of shit.
> you never know the time of the working dog might be coming back, people are already moving towards more high drive dogs, even in working dogs their leaving the german shepherd and going over to the malinois. thanks to the internet information moves faster, shutzhund/ipo now have to compete with knpv and nvbk dogs.  the standards of what is expected of a dog seems to be increasing. or maybe its just me


It is the government Michael not the show breeders. 

It confuses me, I have heard lots of complaints from Aussies regarding various laws, requirements etc etc, but yet hear some of the same people calling for more regulations, and wanting to give the government more control and power over things there.


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## rick smith

for sure it's politicians that make the laws ...who get elected from "voters"

i can see trying to prevent rabies from entering a rabies free country and that is why those countries are tighter, and that is what quarantine laws for canines are mostly aimed at ... 

but what would REALLY suck for me is WTF can you do with the dog while it is in "quarantine" ? .... if the quarantine is a real deal and not some paperwork drill, i wouldn't think you could do much work with a dog AT ALL while it is penned up in a "sterile" environment ](*,)

so i guess there won't be any international competitions down under either ](*,)
and what do you do if you have a great dog you want to compete with outside OZ ? does it have to get "quarantined" again when you bring it home ?

or what about a SAR dog ? are they exempted from working outside the country and not required to go back thru quarantine all over when they return ?

i'd like to see the fine print, but off the top, it sure seems like an insane policy if Australia doesn't recognize vax certs from other countries in some way shape or form 

dogs are not exactly the same as cane toads ](*,)


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## Michael Murphy

its just not rabies i think its a few other things as well.
yea i think if you take a dog overseas and it comes back its like 1 month in quaratine. dont know about the visiting though, chris could probably answer that better, his imported heaps of dogs


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## rick smith

of course it's not "just" rabies ... why i said what i said ](*,)

not important to me unless i had to isolate a dog up for months to confirm it was not a "health hazard" and couldn't work it ](*,)

and not that it matters either, but i happen to know that "some" people try and switch country of origin to get around the laws ](*,)

and the thread is drifting way off ... so sorry i posted


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## brad robert

Martin Koops said:


> Brad,
> Don't use the past tense with Hassan he's not dead just moved to NZ.
> 
> My female is from Hassan x Hannah, what's your friends dog name?


Hey Martin he is in N.Z enough said :smile: Im kidding...

Her name is Heidi.


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## Frank La Fauci

Michael, seems that you are very easy to talk crap to. If you belive Hassan or Yagus or any of the FCI dogs are not good think again. any one that talks crap about them dogs are people I would not listen to full stop..


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## Michael Murphy

they didnt say they were crap, they just said that there are stronger/harder dogs out there.
i actually like what i have herd of hassan's sons


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