# fromm family dog food



## Justen Haynes (Dec 1, 2010)

Recently purchased a GSD pup that was started on the puppy gold brand. Anyone using this food? Looks like a quality kibble and has a good rating...


----------



## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

I can't really say. I did purchase the food several years ago for my lil' pit pup. Not sure, but at the time perhaps they sourced their ingredients from not so good farms cuz I don't think I was happy w/ the skin and coat results for her. If there was an issue w/ food, my pitbull would certainly let me know. I'd recently fed Diamond Pet Foods dog food to my dogs and although the ingredients sounded GRRRREAT, the food was horrible. Both my pit and my mal looked like h*^l. I was not happy. I can't give any more insight than that. Perhaps these days their ingredients come from better sources. I've not fed it since pit was a pup.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I have friends that feed Fromm, and are happy with it, and recommended it to me. I do not feed Fromm..


----------



## Dave Martin (Aug 11, 2010)

My girlfriend feeds their _Surf & Turf _to our Boxer. Definitely a good quality food that he's doing really well on, but personally I don't like it solely because the kibbles are so damn small that he doesn't even chew anything, just inhales it all like a vaccuum.

I often wonder how much stronger/wider his jaws could be if he was actually crunching his food since he was a small puppy. I realize larger kibbles aren't equivalent to chewing bone and other animal matter, but still, I prefer my dog chewing his food..


----------



## Justen Haynes (Dec 1, 2010)

yeah...I feel the same dave..and this one as well inhales it..lol I thought that the adult kibble would be bigger...I guess not...


----------



## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

I've used Fromm when I have to board my dogs where I can't feed the normal RAW diet. So far so good, with my male Malinois pup he had to have like 20% more per feeding as he couldn't keep the weight on as he was so active with the regular serving suggestions. 

One think I like about the adult food is they use a lot of different protein sources duck, deer, beef etc. That in itself when you switch up 'flavours' you have less chance of them developing allergies to specific proteins. I'm not sure if the puppy food is available with different proteins but in adult it is.


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Fromm was my first choice when I had to switch raw to kibble! I really liked that they have 5 or so varieties/flavors that can be swapped out. 

Careful though, because they have an average "adult" dog food that is crap. And by crap I mean average. 

Their grain-free's are really nice. Can't say enough good things about them. They're the closest thing I could get to LOCAL dog kibble too.


----------



## Tammy Cohen (Dec 21, 2008)

When I see tomato pomace or beet pulp in a dog food I just walk away. [-(
I'm not a fan of grains either. I was really happy when I came across this site: http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/dog-food-reviews/brand/
They have reviews of many foods and I agree with a lot of what they say.


----------



## Tammy Cohen (Dec 21, 2008)

Oh, and just a thought on chewing the kibble and dental health (contrary to popular opinion). Chewing kibble = particles being left on the teeth. Generally kibble contains carbohydrates. Carbohydrates = sugar. Sugar = tooth decay.
Yet another reason I prefer to feed raw. :smile:


----------



## Kelly Godwin (Jul 25, 2011)

We feed Fromm, seems to be a great food. We have fed a lot of different foods in the past and Fromm seems to agree the most with my dobie!


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Tammy Cohen said:


> When I see tomato pomace or beet pulp in a dog food I just walk away. [-(
> I'm not a fan of grains either. I was really happy when I came across this site: http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/dog-food-reviews/brand/
> They have reviews of many foods and I agree with a lot of what they say.


Why do you not like tomato pomace or beet pulp? It's simply a soluble fiber source. Soluble fiber sources actually nourish the mucosal cells of the GI tract on a cellular level. When my dogs would steal tomatoes out of my garden, they eat the whole thing. They don't politely peel the skin (the pomace part). Same reason dogs like eating grasses (OMG, my dogs are the worst). Probably for soluble or insoluble fiber. 

Why aren't you a fan of grains? Because the Dog Food Advisor told you so?  I am not suggesting dogs need to eat a kibble that is 60%+ grains, but all grains are not "bad" nor are they "unnatural." My snake is the most perfect carnivore on the planet and the last thing those rats I fed to her eat are grains. Dogs evolved from wolves eating their discarded trash and scraps. In fact, one of my professors from undergrad published a paper recently on the diet of free-roaming dogs in India on what they ate (sounds like they don't get the benefit of Orijen or EVO). HDF=human derived food, RO=relative occurrence.



> Diet of free-ranging dogs.—We identified several categories
> of food used by dogs, including HDF (mainly from household
> garbage and* millet bread*), domestic ungulates (cattle, water
> buffalo, goats, and sheep), 2 occurrences of blackbuck
> ...


From: http://www.snr.missouri.edu/fw/faculty/pdf/gompper/dog-fox-diet.pdf

So what all that says to me is people like to have this romantic idea of what dogs, wolves, or wild canids should eat when in reality what they do eat "naturally" is a bit different. I was an anti-grain raw feeder about 5-6 years ago, but I've moved away from that as one of my dogs definitely does NOT do best on grain free (either raw or kibble). We're currently doing well with a moderate grain kibble and occasional raw for him. There's not one diet that's best for all dogs.

As for as the OP goes: haven't tried Fromm, sorry...


----------



## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Why do you not like tomato pomace or beet pulp? It's simply a soluble fiber source. Soluble fiber sources actually nourish the mucosal cells of the GI tract on a cellular level. When my dogs would steal tomatoes out of my garden, they eat the whole thing. They don't politely peel the skin (the pomace part). Same reason dogs like eating grasses (OMG, my dogs are the worst). Probably for soluble or insoluble fiber.
> 
> Why aren't you a fan of grains? Because the Dog Food Advisor told you so?  I am not suggesting dogs need to eat a kibble that is 60%+ grains, but all grains are not "bad" nor are they "unnatural." My snake is the most perfect carnivore on the planet and the last thing those rats I fed to her eat are grains. Dogs evolved from wolves eating their discarded trash and scraps. In fact, one of my professors from undergrad published a paper recently on the diet of free-roaming dogs in India on what they ate (sounds like they don't get the benefit of Orijen or EVO). HDF=human derived food, RO=relative occurrence.
> 
> ...



Hello Maren-Bell just want to say thanks for your posts regarding health, nutrition, immunization, conditioning, etc. on the board. My question/concern regarding this post regarding feed and/or nutrition of dogs, is does this study address or can it even compare to the required diet/feed of a working dog? Was this something to settle the concerns of pet owners? (I personally don't have anything against tomato pomace or beet pulp, so long as the amounts aren't excessive.) Did the dog's studied in these countries perform any consistent kind of "work?" Be it having to run down its small animal prey, jump ditches or streams, travel for long distances. etc.? Does the study encompass the overall general health of the dogs? Immune system strength? Stress tolerance or resistance? Nervous system health (eyes, circulation, reflexes, receptors)? Health of joints and connective tissues (hips/elbows, neck/spine)? Incidence, prevalence, or severity of hereditary diseases in relation to this diet? Also, were there any post-mortem studies that supported the results of the research? 

Just asking because working dogs and their nutritional requirements may/may not be different. And they are sometimes exposed to a whole host of other things pet dogs may not be. There are some working dogs that jump a hurdle, palisade wall, and/or long jump twice a wk. or more. Some must track for long periods to save the life of a lost/missing person. For others the stress of searching a bldg. or field for a suspect and/or apprehension of said suspect. Herders that are moving large herds of animals across large expanses of land, and the connective tissue stresses of agility or flyball for others. Hunting dogs and field trials,etc. If I click on the link will I be able to find answers to these questions (I'm sure it'll say, yeah. Any dog can survive on this:lol? If not then I'm not sure I'll want to look through it (got a lot of studying to do). Just curious if the study addressed just dogs in general (pets and working) or if it was specific to pets that get minimal interaction, exercise, stress, etc.

Thanks!


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Zakia Days said:


> Hello Maren-Bell just want to say thanks for your posts regarding health, nutrition, immunization, conditioning, etc. on the board. My question/concern regarding this post regarding feed and/or nutrition of dogs, is does this study address or can it even compare to the required diet/feed of a working dog? Was this something to settle the concerns of pet owners? (I personally don't have anything against tomato pomace or beet pulp, so long as the amounts aren't excessive.) Did the dog's studied in these countries perform any consistent kind of "work?" Be it having to run down its small animal prey, jump ditches or streams, travel for long distances. etc.? Does the study encompass the overall general health of the dogs? Immune system strength? Stress tolerance or resistance? Nervous system health (eyes, circulation, reflexes, receptors)? Health of joints and connective tissues (hips/elbows, neck/spine)? Incidence, prevalence, or severity of hereditary diseases in relation to this diet? Also, were there any post-mortem studies that supported the results of the research?
> 
> Just asking because working dogs and their nutritional requirements may/may not be different. And they are sometimes exposed to a whole host of other things pet dogs may not be. There are some working dogs that jump a hurdle, palisade wall, and/or long jump twice a wk. or more. Some must track for long periods to save the life of a lost/missing person. For others the stress of searching a bldg. or field for a suspect and/or apprehension of said suspect. Herders that are moving large herds of animals across large expanses of land, and the connective tissue stresses of agility or flyball for others. Hunting dogs and field trials,etc. If I click on the link will I be able to find answers to these questions (I'm sure it'll say, yeah. Any dog can survive on this:lol? If not then I'm not sure I'll want to look through it (got a lot of studying to do). Just curious if the study addressed just dogs in general (pets and working) or if it was specific to pets that get minimal interaction, exercise, stress, etc.
> 
> Thanks!


Hi Zakia, the point of posting that article was to demonstrate that when free ranging dogs aren't fed out of a bag like most North American or European dogs, they don't eat strictly meat and bones from the deer or whatever they pulled down while "Born Free" plays in the background. ;-) It's actually pretty unglamorous, like eating garbage scraps and stealing crops. Suffice it to say, I don't believe we should feed our performance dogs garbage scraps per se, but the view of what dogs "should" eat (versus what they actually do eat when being made to forage for themselves) is heavily romanticized to the point of being misleading by many raw feeders. 

I get asked by working/performance dog people all the time if their dogs need to be on a special high calorie, high vitamin, high protein, high fat, high whatever diet. Honestly, the answer is usually no unless the dog is participating in something fairly to very strenous like dog sledding and all day ranch work herding. The average agility run or protection routine shouldn't really require extra special nutrition or calories. Can you add some things to their diet if you want? Sure, but don't break the bank on supplements and shortchange good conditioning either. I wrote a short paper back in March on this subject while I took an elective rotation on nutrition at the University of Tennessee. I am reposting it on my blog. You may find it interesting and fairly brief. :mrgreen:

http://workingdogdoc.blogspot.com/2011/07/canine-performance-nutrition-overview.html


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Another one to add to your performance dog list is service dogs - they burn 20% more cals than other dogs. Source is SACN 4th ed.

The difference really shows in the dogs we have. Both "fixed" retrievers, same home stress, almost same size, exact exercise. My working dog needs 2x+ cals per day than the pet dog. My dog was on a "super performance" but is now is on SD High Energy. Other dog is on SD Vet Advantage.


----------



## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

Anne Vaini said:


> Another one to add to your performance dog list is service dogs - they burn 20% more cals than other dogs. Source is SACN 4th ed.
> 
> The difference really shows in the dogs we have. Both "fixed" retrievers, same home stress, almost same size, exact exercise. My working dog needs 2x+ cals per day than the pet dog. My dog was on a "super performance" but is now is on SD High Energy. Other dog is on SD Vet Advantage.


Hey Ms. Vaini! And, service dogs! Wasn't meaning to leave any working dogs out. I know how hard their work can be:smile:. 1000 apologies.


----------



## Tammy Cohen (Dec 21, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Why do you not like tomato pomace or beet pulp?
> Why aren't you a fan of grains? Because the Dog Food Advisor told you so?


As far as grains... modern extremely high gluten grains aren't even good for people.... or cows... or anything. Unless of course you happen to be the CEO of Monsanto :lol:

I just recently came across the dog food advisor and I was in shock. After years of fighting with vets and stubborn gravy train feeding pet owners, finally a web site about dog food that I don't hate! It's like a miracle! Beleive me, I don't base my opinions about feeding dogs by how many stars a certain brand of food gets on a website. Especially since most review sites have rating systems designed by morons. ](*,)

Years ago, after talking in length and in great detail about about feeding dogs with the veterinary nutritionalist form Abady at a seminar, one of the things he pointed out to me is that carnivores do not need much fiber and how fiber can, once rehydrated in the animals body make up a very large percentage of the volume of the food. And he explained to me how that is detrimental.

From the abady site:


> ...it is a scientific fact that carnivores have a very low requirement for fiber. He felt that beet pulp was particularly undesirable because, even though it may be the fourth or fifth ingredient listed on an ingredient panel, the amount this could represent in typical canine diets, by both weight and volume could be so great as to make it the most dominant ingredient in the ration. Bearing in mind that there are 454 grams in a pound, if a ration were to contain 5% fiber, and 4 1/2% of that fiber, or 20.43 grams per found of food were derived from beet pulp, the ration could contain anywhere from 113.5 grams to 132 grams of beet pulp by weight depending on the fiber content of the beet pulp. That means that 25 to 29 percent, by weight, of such a ration could be comprised of beet pulp. The impact of such enormous quantities of fiber-containing material on a digestive tract not suited to processing such material can be not only physically damaging to the tract itself, but can also have a detrimental effect on every nutrient that is processed through the tract.


etc..etc..

You know who likes fiber? My horse...

I don't really think that dogs eating scraps and trash found in dumpsters is a good representation of what mother nature had in mind for wild canines. Will they eat it? yes! Will I sit here and eat McDonalds and an entire bag of candy given the option. Yes! Am I going to survive? yes. Am I going to be obese and arthritic, have a heart attack and die younger than I would have if I was eating healthy? Yes... People should be eating nuts and berries not processed cheese product in a tube. But that's how people eat. And that's also how people feed dogs. If the dogs didn't have access to the scraps and byproducts of man made garbage you would see a different picture. Dogs are opportunistic. Of course they'll eat whats put in front of them. Just because they like kibbles and bits (or tomato skins) that doesn't mean it's good for them!

Hey... I say don't feed cows sausages, don't feed snakes celery... why on the earth would you feed beet pulp or grains to a dog? Other than the fact that it's what people have been accustomed to. I love the look of total confusion on people's faces when I tell them I don't feed my dogs dog food. "well, what on earth do you feed them then?"


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

As I said, I do not support a high amount of grains in dog food. Never did, never will. However, it is scientific fact that dogs are NOT carnivores. They are carnivorous omnivores. Cats and snakes are obligate carnivores. That being said, my own cat caught two mice this morning. Do you think they incise the gut and shake out all the grain the mouse ate right before it died? Why I feed my snake rats, do you think she guts the rat before she consumes it? No. They are ingesting a SMALL amount of grains when eating these prey whole. But do I think they need a hugely grain heavy diet? No. All things in moderation. This should not be turned into a moral "you're either feeding Ol' Roy or you're feeding raw" debate. You have to look at how the animal's doing and adjust.

I would challenge the grains are evil crowd to come up with a solution for my Malinois and those in his line that do not do well with grain free foods. He was fed nearly 100% home prepared raw until he was 16 months of age with little to no grain (just a veggie mix and green tripe). He's also been on grain free foods such as all the varieties of EVO (chicken/turkey, red meat, and salmon/herring) and Taste of the Wild. Still has done the best with the best stool quality on a moderate diet that's about 30-40% carbs. He still gets occasional raw and daily (when my husband doesn't forget to pick it up at the store...) probiotics. I am sorry, I would love to cling to the dogma I bought into about five years ago, but I see that it does not hold true for every dog. Some dogs can do really well on raw and/or grain free, and some dogs, like mine, simply do not. 

As far as Abady goes, he's not a veterinary nutritionist...let's see what he does think about a different topic near and dear to my heart: (emphasis mine...)



> *WHAT CAUSES HIP DYSPLASIA* - a woefully inadequate level of nutrition.​ How do we know that nutrition is at fault? *Other than the fact that hip dysplasia can be prevented through the judicious feeding of Abady products*, hip dysplasia along with the other conditions listed in the title of this article, have reached pandemic levels and are on the increase. Since no one is breeding for these faults, if anything, people are trying unsuccessfully to breed against them, these conditions cannot be genetic. They are not breed-specific either, since all breeds are affected. Environment is not a consideration, since dogs all over the country exhibit the same symptoms. The only factor remaining is the food supply and the uniform level of nutrition that it delivers. This should come as no surprise since the majors set the price parameters and everyone scrambles to produce products within or close to those margins.​


 From: http://therobertabadydogfoodcoltd.com/hip_dysplasia.htm

Oh really? Can we say:










Step right up, ladies and gents! The complete CURE for hip dysplasia, thyroid conditions, bloat, the pox, and more! You just have to feed ONLY our food! Never mind that the FDA and AAFCO would consider it* illegal* to label a dog food with health claims. Wonder what they'd think about that... :-k


----------



## Tammy Cohen (Dec 21, 2008)

Robert Abady can certainly be a tad, shall we say, outspoken? But in the days of Science Diet and foods like it being considered the best food by practically everyone, I can understand his frustration and you've just got to admire his ability to get under the skin of the AKC crowd. The man had some spunk in his day, that's for sure. But I wasn't talking about Robert Abady himself, I was talking about the veterinary nutritionist that works for the Abady company. For the record, when asked what is the absolute best diet for my dog, his answer was a raw diet and not their product. When I showed him ingredient panels from other foods he gave me his honest opinion. Good or bad. And he was able to tell me why. I'm not saying that his opinion is the be all end all of canine nutrition by any means but no one is. All we can do as dog owners is take in all of the information that is available to us and use our best judgment to do right by the animals that depend on us. Mother nature is the only one that knows all the tricks and secrets and I don't think she's giving them all up quite yet. 

I think we can all agree that any animals diet is responsible for the quality of every single part of the body. From their skin cells to their skeleton. Genetics matter but I don't believe that they are absolute one way or the other. Nutrition isn't just about X amount of vitamin A, X amount of vitamin B. I think it matters where those nutrients come from and how every variable works together to form the big picture. I'm sure there are many variables that science isn't even aware of yet.

A few things to consider on the subject of grains. 
-Gluten does have the ability to damage the villi in the intestines. That is a fact. 
-Damaged villi can result in malabsobtion of vital nutrients. That is also a fact. 
-Malabsobtion of vital nutrients can/ will lead to all kinds of health problems. That is a fact. 

To me, that is good enough reason to avoid them.

The unnaturally high gluten content of genetically modified modern grains is also another point to consider but that is a whole 'nother can of worms in itself. But it's worth thinking about.

Not that I want to turn this into a debate about Robet Abady being crazy or not but in his defense there was something to backup his claim about hip displaysia. Whether or not it's appropriate for him to make that claim is irrelevant to me but his findings should at least be thought provoking for anyone interested in the subject. And even if you disagree with one thing that he says, it would be unwise to totally disregard everything he says.



> The Abady Company is the only company in the marketplace to demonstrate through a review of a 20-year feeding program (non company affiliated), conducted at the prestigious Fidelco Guide Dog Foundation, Inc. in Bloomfield, Connecticut, that feeding Abady foods, as directed, eliminated hip dysplasia in all dogs under the direct control of the Foundation and in 90% of puppies placed in foster homes. ...
> ...Prior to feeding Abady, while feeding national brands, the Foundation experienced high levels of hip dysplasia (50%), much of it severe or crippling.


Be all end all? Nope. But still interesting.

Another interesting tid bit- Many grain kibble fed dogs grow faster than raw fed dogs but the skeletal development is not adequate to support the size of the dog, thus putting undue weight on joints that are not yet able to support it, and if malabsobtion of calcium and collagen building vitamin C and other nutrients due to the inclusion of gluten in the diet is a factor in skeletal formation then I could certainly see how this would have a potentially catastrophic effect on the body of the dog.
In an article about Gluten intolerance by John B. Symes, D.V.M, he writes:



> Suddenly, conditions such as hip dysplasia, elbow and shoulder problems, intervertebral disc syndrome, cruciate ligament ruptures, and even heart valve failure all have better explanations. All of these problems are caused by failing cartilage and connective tissue, both of which are structured similarly and made up of calcium and collagen. Collagen is the building block of most of your skeletal support structures. The principle component of collagen is vitamin C. Therefore, when it is understood that calcium and vitamin C are absorbed by the duodenum, then it is easily seen that inadequate amounts of these in the diet or failure of their absorption will compromise the integrity of these structures...all of them.
> 
> magine that a German shepherd puppy begins eating a wheat, barley, corn, or soy-based diet from the moment it is weaned. If inadequate levels of calcium and vitamin C are absorbed, what are the chances that its hips, elbows, spine, and other cartilaginous structures are going to form properly? I would say "Not good". Most people familiar with dogs know that this breed has a reputation for horrible hip dysplasia. But, they also have serious allergies and other immune-related disorders. This, of course, is no coincidence. Once it is understood that the allergies form in the area of the gut that is being damaged or coated by the "glue", it is easy to see why the trouble breeds like the German Shepherd, Cocker Spaniel, Shih Tzu, and others have their "genetic" tendencies such as allergic skin and ear problems, orthopedic abnormalities, intervertebral disc ruptures, and cancers. Once again, Pandora's Box is opened and unleashed upon these poor breeds through one basic mechanism: malnutrition via malabsorption taking place in the duodenum.
> 
> ...


And back to the subject of fiber. Fiber CAN cause damage to the villi in the intestines. That coupled with damage that may have already been caused by gluten is a potential recipe for disaster in my opinion.

Why risk it? Why not find another way?


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Zakia Days said:


> Hey Ms. Vaini! And, service dogs! Wasn't meaning to leave any working dogs out. I know how hard their work can be:smile:. 1000 apologies.


No apology needed. I was surprised when I learned about it. And relieved that it finally explained why my dogs ate so much and were so thin! 8)


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Tammy Cohen said:


> Why risk it? Why not find another way?


There IS another way. You've been very clear about it.

I cannot feed raw diet (although I used to and would love to), so I choose the most nutrient-dense, therefore lowest fiber kibble I can. Fromm was on my short list for this until I moved and cannot get it here.

Back to the original topic, Fromm's grain-free's are similar to Evo, TOTW. They are well-reviewed and recommended. I found them to be iterchangeable amoung grain-free kibbles. Fromm was my favorite because it is made locally (within the state) and was slightly less expensive than the other grain-free kibbles. 

I find it tiresome to go through the whole raw vs. scavenge vs. prey model vs. good kibble vs. bad kibble debate every time someone asks a simple question about a SPECIFIC BRAND OF DOG FOOD.


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Anne : re: "I cannot feed raw diet (although I used to and would love to)"
why ???
- hope it's not because your organization has also "ruled" to prohibit raw feeding for therapy or service work dogs (like DELTA?) 

fwiw, i REALLY get tired of "best brand" threads and what are you feeding because maybe i might try it too if it worked for you threads 
...i'm all for learning more about nutrition.....hate comparing brands


----------



## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

Tammy Cohen said:


> Robert Abady can certainly be a tad, shall we say, outspoken? But in the days of Science Diet and foods like it being considered the best food by practically everyone, I can understand his frustration and you've just got to admire his ability to get under the skin of the AKC crowd. The man had some spunk in his day, that's for sure. But I wasn't talking about Robert Abady himself, I was talking about the veterinary nutritionist that works for the Abady company. For the record, when asked what is the absolute best diet for my dog, his answer was a raw diet and not their product. When I showed him ingredient panels from other foods he gave me his honest opinion. Good or bad. And he was able to tell me why. I'm not saying that his opinion is the be all end all of canine nutrition by any means but no one is. All we can do as dog owners is take in all of the information that is available to us and use our best judgment to do right by the animals that depend on us. Mother nature is the only one that knows all the tricks and secrets and I don't think she's giving them all up quite yet.
> 
> I think we can all agree that any animals diet is responsible for the quality of every single part of the body. From their skin cells to their skeleton. Genetics matter but I don't believe that they are absolute one way or the other. Nutrition isn't just about X amount of vitamin A, X amount of vitamin B. I think it matters where those nutrients come from and how every variable works together to form the big picture. I'm sure there are many variables that science isn't even aware of yet.
> 
> ...


Hey Tammy, how did you find out about the seminar w/ the Abady staff member? I am such a fan of his story and his food. I'd like to attend the next one if there will be another? Where do I get the info? Thanks!


----------



## Lisa Brazeau (May 6, 2010)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> From: http://www.snr.missouri.edu/fw/faculty/pdf/gompper/dog-fox-diet.pdf
> 
> So what all that says to me is people like to have this romantic idea of what dogs, wolves, or wild canids should eat when in reality what they do eat "naturally" is a bit different. I was an anti-grain raw feeder about 5-6 years ago, but I've moved away from that as one of my dogs definitely does NOT do best on grain free (either raw or kibble). We're currently doing well with a moderate grain kibble and occasional raw for him. There's not one diet that's best for all dogs.
> 
> As for as the OP goes: haven't tried Fromm, sorry...


Dogs are opportunistic feeders. Human Derived food is the most accessible, with the least amount of energy required to get it. It has nothing to do with what's 'best' nutritionally for them. I would hardly describe garbage piles, or vast agri-fields as 'natural' feeding grounds...

I do agree that different dogs have different needs, though. That's the beauty of raw in a multi-dog household. My GSD does terrible on grains and sugars, so I don't give them to him. My Mali and my Presa need a little extra carbs, so they get some.

If you're going to feed kibble -&) Fromm is probably one of the better brands.


----------



## Tammy Cohen (Dec 21, 2008)

Zakia Days said:


> Hey Tammy, how did you find out about the seminar w/ the Abady staff member? I am such a fan of his story and his food. I'd like to attend the next one if there will be another? Where do I get the info? Thanks!


They are pretty friendly over there. If you call them and ask I'm sure they'll be happy to let you know when and where they will be doing one near you. I think they do it pretty regularly. Their # is (845)473-1900. Dr. Wessels is the one who does the seminars but if you have any specific questions you could probably get him on the phone too.


----------



## David Krider (Mar 19, 2011)

After following this thread I would like to add my two cents. During my first 20 years in racing sled dogs the average speed for a winning dog team traveling 20 miles a day for two or three days went from 14 miles per hour to 20 miles per hour. Yes that is 20 mph for 20 miles, very few animals wild or domestic are capable of this. The increase was brought by two main reasons, nutrition and better trails. Nutrition enabled the dog to work to its full potential and the better trails adjusted the genetic direction of the dog.

I only bring up sled dogs because they have the highest energy requirements.

As an example using round numbers the average 50# dog at rest may burn up about 1000 calories. That same dog in prime racing condition may burn up over 4000 calories training and racing. The first problem is getting that dog to consume the 10 to 12 cups of kibble to be able to get 4000+ calories. The second problem was dehydration. 

Meat and highly digestible animal fat solved both problems during the racing and training seasons. The fat would make up about 35% or more of that diet. The most digestible fat for a racing dog was considered to be seal fat, hard to come by in the lower US, the second best was considered to be beaver tail, still hard to get a good supply, the third and most used was chicken skins. The feed was always fed wet in a stew or soup consistency, three or four times a day. This diet would also aid in helping the dog to recuperate from day to day stress.

Because people tend to follow what is convenient we would feed that diet during training and racing and drop back to a kibble during the part of the year when the dog was at rest, only about 4 months, and supplement the kibble with meat to a lesser degree. We considered the kibble to be a filler in the diet.

All dogs are not created equal and the diets would be adjusted for the condition of the dog.

While I am a big fan of several types of meat, I consider liver to be a miracle food, balance should be maintained, and dogs fed for the level of activity they are engaged in. While racing dogs require high levels of nutrient dense feed, often large flock guard dogs 120# plus dogs do best on a low density feed. I have followed these basics in feeding with racing dogs, herding dogs, livestock guard dogs and now DS and Mals.

My conclusion is, I think you all may be right. You just taylor your program to what fits you and your dog best.

Dr David Kronfeld from Cornell verified this form of feeding with beagles on treadmills, foxhounds for hunting, and traveled with racing dog teams to monitor condition with blood and fecal tests every other day for over two years I believe

What we feed our dogs can be a volatile subject and I can recall members of our dog club getting in physical fights over the best dog food.
I hope I haven't offended everyone.


----------



## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

Thanks fpr sharing. It is interesting to hear and I've always wanted to know how sled dog people nourish their animals since there work is so much more extreme than most. I think most people on the forum feed their dogs what is most convenient, and what gets the best results physically, health wise and/or mentally. I will try and google the results of the study you mentioned. I'm sure there are excerpts of it here somewhere on the forum.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Tammy Cohen said:


> Robert Abady can certainly be a tad, shall we say, outspoken? But in the days of Science Diet and foods like it being considered the best food by practically everyone, I can understand his frustration and you've just got to admire his ability to get under the skin of the AKC crowd. The man had some spunk in his day, that's for sure. But I wasn't talking about Robert Abady himself, I was talking about the veterinary nutritionist that works for the Abady company.
> 
> For the record, when asked what is the absolute best diet for my dog, his answer was a raw diet and not their product. When I showed him ingredient panels from other foods he gave me his honest opinion. Good or bad. And he was able to tell me why. I'm not saying that his opinion is the be all end all of canine nutrition by any means but no one is. All we can do as dog owners is take in all of the information that is available to us and use our best judgment to do right by the animals that depend on us. Mother nature is the only one that knows all the tricks and secrets and I don't think she's giving them all up quite yet.
> .


Curious...which of these board certified veterinary nutritionists works for Abady?

http://www.acvn.org/directory/

I don't know a single veterinary nutritionist who recommends a raw diet over all else. Even the more holistically minded ones I personally know do not. And you cannot call yourself a veterinary nutritionist unless you're board certified.



> I think we can all agree that any animals diet is responsible for the quality of every single part of the body. From their skin cells to their skeleton. Genetics matter but I don't believe that they are absolute one way or the other. Nutrition isn't just about X amount of vitamin A, X amount of vitamin B. I think it matters where those nutrients come from and how every variable works together to form the big picture. I'm sure there are many variables that science isn't even aware of yet
> 
> A few things to consider on the subject of grains.
> -Gluten does have the ability to damage the villi in the intestines. That is a fact.
> ...


I was trained as a biologist before I was trained as a vet. It's one thing to have "interesting" and/or outrageous ideas that are basically thinking outside the box. I respect that. What I don't buy is quackery and outrageous claims that have no scientific basis, especially when those claims are followed by "buy our magical food that is PROVEN to prevent it." Umm. No. When they make those sorts of ridiculous claims, I dismiss what they have to say in total. 



> Another interesting tid bit- Many grain kibble fed dogs grow faster than raw fed dogs but the skeletal development is not adequate to support the size of the dog, thus putting undue weight on joints that are not yet able to support it, and if malabsobtion of calcium and collagen building vitamin C and other nutrients due to the inclusion of gluten in the diet is a factor in skeletal formation then I could certainly see how this would have a potentially catastrophic effect on the body of the dog.
> In an article about Gluten intolerance by John B. Symes, D.V.M, he writes:
> 
> 
> ...


Whether it is grain free kibble, grain kibble, canned food, raw food, dehydrated food, whatever does not matter. What makes dogs grow too fast is too many calories and diets that are too calorically dense. According to the USDA's food database, 1 kg of raw chicken thighs with the skin are 2110 kcals. 1 kg of grain free Fromm Surf and Turf is 4410 kcals. Because raw chicken thigh is half as calorically dense than grain free kibble (which are typically more calorically dense than kibble with grain, but not always), you can feed more of it by mass and the pup is less likely to grow too quickly. Because of this, veterinary nutritionists actually do not recommended starting them on grain free, particularly if they are a large breed, until the pup has just about finished growing.

I have not read very compelling evidence for the gluten free fad that is going around. For people with actual celiac disease, yes, absolutely it will make a difference. If people want to try gluten free (or dairy free or meat free or only eating raw themselves or the Paleo diet or whatever), that's fine, but it is uncertain at best if it is helpful at all to the general population. Whole grains are one of the most nutritious things out there for humans. We've been growing them intentionally for thousands of years and eating them for tens if not hundreds of thousands of years longer.

With fiber, there is soluble fiber and insoluble fiber. I think both can have a place and I have the studies in dogs that show soluble fiber is good for both satiety signals and for acting as a prebiotic for the intestinal mucosal cells. If your dog likes eating grass as all three of mine do, they're ingesting insoluble fiber (plant cellulose). My dog certainly does better with a small amount of fiber and stress induced colitis is really common in working and performance dogs (also called fiber responsive colitis). With grain free foods or 100% raw, he has really loose stools that improve very consistently with being on a moderate grain food containing a small amount of fiber, probiotics, and some occasional raw. I'm very sorry that doesn't fit your tidy paradigm, but it is what it is.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Lisa Brazeau said:


> Dogs are opportunistic feeders. Human Derived food is the most accessible, with the least amount of energy required to get it. It has nothing to do with what's 'best' nutritionally for them. I would hardly describe garbage piles, or vast agri-fields as 'natural' feeding grounds...
> 
> I do agree that different dogs have different needs, though. That's the beauty of raw in a multi-dog household. My GSD does terrible on grains and sugars, so I don't give them to him. My Mali and my Presa need a little extra carbs, so they get some.
> 
> If you're going to feed kibble -&) Fromm is probably one of the better brands.


The point of me sharing that article was not to say that dogs *need* to eat garbage or steal from crops or eat the carcasses of dead livestock, but that the raw foodist's vision of what dogs eat "in the wild" is often rather different than reality. I've fed raw myself since about 2005 (less now than I used to and I'm more selective about the kind of raw I do), but it's certainly not appropriate for all dogs or all owners. If your dog does best on a well thought out raw diet, that's fine. If they do well on a diet with a high quality moderate amount of grains diet, that's fine too. Quasi-religious fervor that the only way to do things is raw or cooked or kibble or whatever is not necessary.


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

It was a couple of years ago, true, but when I first read about Robert Abady having a vet nutritionist employed, I researched it. He did not at that time. 

Of course, as I say, this was a couple of years ago. However, he made the claim at that time, and the claim was not true -- unless he has his own definition for "veterinary nutritionist."

He does make some good points. He also makes some completely non-corroborated (and kinda crazy, IMHO) claims, backing them up with nonexistent or unreviewed "research," and those claims, unfortunately, cause me to view his body of work with a lot of doubt.

JMO, though.


----------



## Tammy Cohen (Dec 21, 2008)

Clearly we aren't going to see eye to eye on this one. I don't have an agenda here. You can feed your dog whatever you want. You don't like abady? Don't feed it. You like feeding grains? Be my guest. Do I believe that you're wrong? Yup.


Maren Bell Jones said:


> Curious...which of these board certified veterinary nutritionists works for Abady?


I'm not really interested in playing the Abady advocate role here, but this is what I was able to find about him poking around on the internet. Either way, I believe his view on feeding dogs is valid and worth consideration.

Brian Wessels received his Bachelor of Veterinary Science degree (our North American Doctor of Veterinary Science degree) from the Veterinary Faculty in Pretoria, South Africa. In private practice for 20 years in Pinetown, South Africa, he then received his Masters in Medicine from the Nelson R. Mandela School of Medicine in Durban, South Africa, and served at that institution as department head of physiology, biochemistry, and functional histology. 
Dr. Wessels now resides in northwestern Connecticut, and serves as a nutritional consultant to veterinarians and other private parties, including the Abady Dog Food Company.



Maren Bell Jones said:


> I don't know a single veterinary nutritionist who recommends a raw diet over all else. Even the more holistically minded ones I personally know do not. And you cannot call yourself a veterinary nutritionist unless you're board certified.


I take everything *everyone* says with a grain of salt. Board certified or not. As humans we like take things apart and try to break it down and put it back together again. Often with flaws. I think mother nature had it right the first time. I can't seem to locate any paper credentials for her but she has a pretty good track record. 



Maren Bell Jones said:


> What I don't buy is quackery and outrageous claims that have no scientific basis, especially when those claims are followed by "buy our magical food that is PROVEN to prevent it." Umm. No. When they make those sorts of ridiculous claims, I dismiss what they have to say in total.


Fair enough I guess, I think it's foolish and closed minded to completely write someone off because of one thing but that's your choice. But I suppose I can relate in a way. I tend to want to write off the veterinary community since so many vets are in the back pocket of Hills (science death I like to call it). I still have one ear half open though... I'm still waiting for compelling evidence...haven't come across any but I try to keep an open mind.



Maren Bell Jones said:


> Whether it is grain free kibble, grain kibble, canned food, raw food, dehydrated food, whatever does not matter. What makes dogs grow too fast is too many calories and diets that are too calorically dense.


Psst-You forgot about this part...


> Another interesting tid bit- Many grain kibble fed dogs grow faster than raw fed dogs but the skeletal development is not adequate to support the size of the dog, thus putting undue weight on joints that are not yet able to support it, and *if malabsobtion of calcium and collagen building vitamin C and other nutrients due to the inclusion of gluten in the diet is a factor in skeletal formation then I could certainly see how this would have a potentially catastrophic effect on the body of the dog.*


It seems that Abady's hip dysplasia claim is what got under your skin and I presented some other information from different sources that might indicate that Abady may have been onto something. Not all calories are created equal.



Maren Bell Jones said:


> We've been growing them intentionally for thousands of years and eating them for tens if not hundreds of thousands of years longer.


We humans, in all of our infinite wisdom, also have lots of cancer and we seem to like putting holes in the ozone layer and melt polar ice caps and whatnot... Because we would never do something for the sake of convenience or cost effectiveness or profit despite the detrimental effects of our actions... Right?



> With fiber, there is soluble fiber and insoluble fiber. I think both can have a place and I have the studies in dogs that show soluble fiber is good for both satiety signals and for acting as a prebiotic for the intestinal mucosal cells.


There's that take things apart and put them back together thing again... I may be damaging my dogs intestines, but at least he feels full. Great! And while we're at it, why not destroy the probiotics and enzymes in his food and find an artificial, or at least unnatural way to correct the problem we created? \\/ What could possibly go wrong?



> 100% raw, he has really loose stools that improve very consistently with being on a moderate grain food containing a small amount of fiber, probiotics, and some occasional raw. I'm very sorry that doesn't fit your tidy paradigm, but it is what it is.


Try feeding him chicken necks for a week. No vegetables, no organ meat. Add those things in gradually. I betcha he won't have loose stools.


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

rick smith said:


> Anne : re: "I cannot feed raw diet (although I used to and would love to)"
> why ???
> - hope it's not because your organization has also "ruled" to prohibit raw feeding for therapy or service work dogs (like DELTA?)
> 
> ...


I don't go through an organization, but it is a public health issue when a dog is out in public where immunocomprimised people might be. It is much, much more a concern for therapy dogs (!!!), but I err on the side of caution.

I pick the most energy-dense food available, I don't see a point in callling out specific brands (except discussing the brand the OP asked about). I've used a lot of brands/formulas and had been happy with most. Once the kcal/cup is 450 - 525 range, it's OK for me. Average kibbles are in the 200 - 300 kcal/cup range (if I am remembering correctly).

My final decision is availablility, and I feeding a Science Diet formula now.  =; :lol: Not worth driving appox 50 miles to get almost identical food in a different brand!


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Anne, i am cautious too and get fecal exams ever two months to monitor what my dog may be shedding; (a raw feeder) and about a year now and haven't seen any red flags.
he does therapy work in handicapped schools, old people's rest homes and at a local hospital ward for the dying (can't remember the word - hospice?) 

so i don't know what health hazards you are referring to, except for some of the "studies" i have seen that try and show that dogs fed raw are more likely to shed bacteria that would harm someone with a weak immune system.....as far as how many of those are out in public, that's hard to know of course, but i don't worry about that. 

but when i am anywhere near a hospital i am much more concerned with what my dog (barefoot and on four legs vice two) might pick up than from what he might leave behind, so he gets wiped thoroughly when we depart 

is any of this common practice where you are ? over here there are no requirements to care for the dog after doing therapy work


----------



## Lisa Brazeau (May 6, 2010)

I don't have "religious fervor" towards one feed or another.... Except with my own dogs. I don't care if you feed your dogs cheetos because you think it will make them run faster. But I will respond to the post if somebody asks the question.... 
Anytime people ask about food brands, raw feeders WILL respond with "It's ALL CRAP. Don't feed Kibble."

I am interested in the science, though. To say that ( based on that study) that dogs in the wild eat from garbage piles, therefore defining that as a 'natural food resource' or 'what dogs eat in the wild', is pure bs.

I happen to know a few vets myself. Not ONE of them took any nutrition specific courses to get their degree. If they got further education on their own (lol) they were an outlier. Typically, if vets get info on nutrition, it's from Nutro, or Purina, or Science Diet. Hmmmmmm. When you were in vet school, what nutrition courses did you take?

That goes for our human doctors as well. When was the last time you went to a physician with a problem, and they asked you about your diet? Sure, if you were in cardiac arrest they might ask. But what about indigestion, or headaches, or colds/flu, ect? The body is one giant chemical process. Doesn't it make sense that chemicals that you put in will have more advantagous or less advantagous results? How is it logical to say it's such a simple equation (calories in vs. calories out)?

Ironically, it was a 70yr old vet that turned me on to raw. You would think it was a new age hollistic type. My dog was having uncontrollable, unabated projectile diarrhea for WEEKS. Every time we took her off the meds, she would start squirting again. You would think the vet would be old skool about things - good thing he was. He said, "Ya know, I used to be a vet in rural communities, mainley working on livestock. It wasn't uncommon in those days to see a 12 or 13 yr old collie still doing it's job. How many dogs that age do you see in that capacity these days? None. You would think with better medicine, and new technology, that dogs (and humans) would be living longer, heathier lives, but they don't. The only thing that's changed is diet. There was no dog food back in those days. They were feed raw meat and scraps..." I was sold and haven't looked back. And the diarrhea was gone pretty much instantaneously. Anecdotal evidence.... I know.


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Lisa Brazeau said:


> ... Anytime people ask about food brands, raw feeders WILL respond with "It's ALL CRAP. Don't feed Kibble."



As avid and enthusiastic a raw feeder that I am, with nary a kibble in my house, and despite the fact that I help with raw feeding on several sites, I've never said that. 

I consider some (more than a few) kibbles to be crap-in-a-bag, but I've never said "it's all crap; don't feed kibble."

I do know exactly what you mean about "religious fervor," however. :lol:


That said, I happen to agree with your vet who placed a lot of blame for a lot of canine health issues on crappy kibble, and particularly the ones based on grain instead of meat.


----------



## Lisa Brazeau (May 6, 2010)

Okay Connie. Maybe that's not _the way_ you say it.... lol. Comm'on. We're typing here and I'm pressed to get my point out.


----------



## Lisa Brazeau (May 6, 2010)

Oh, and the question about nutrition courses is an honest one. I think it reads a little snotty. But as a vet that posts here, I'm really curious to know. What nutrition courses were you required to take for your degree?


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Lisa Brazeau said:


> Okay Connie. Maybe that's not _the way_ you say it.... lol. Comm'on. We're typing here and I'm pressed to get my point out.


I know. I was teasin.' Also, I really am aware of the wild-eyed fervor that some proponents of a certain way of feeding exhibit.

I try really really hard not to be one of them. :lol:

I know that not only is raw feeding not possible (or even desired) for many owners, but even that there are dogs for whom it might not be the best choice.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Lisa Brazeau said:


> Oh, and the question about nutrition courses is an honest one. I think it reads a little snotty. But as a vet that posts here, I'm really curious to know. What nutrition courses were you required to take for your degree?


It depends on where you go to school. Some vet schools make you take an animal nutrition course as a prereq before applying. Others have it be a course during the vet school curriculum. At our school, it is a course taught in the first year.

I wasn't sure if you were asking for what's required for all vets or just me, but this is my academic background in nutrition:

-for my masters degree in biology, my graduate research project for my thesis was on how nutrition affections endocrine disruption, specifically the ingredients. If you google my full name, you can probably find the whole thing if you're having a bout of insomnia or something. ;-)
-for vet school, we have a nutrition class that's 8 weeks long with both lecture and lab. It's not taught by Hill's or Purina or anyone else. It covers both large and small animal nutrition and it's more of the nitty gritty stuff you all will not find the least bit sexy (protein synthesis, amino acids, fat oxidation, vitamin functions, etc). However, I did learn some of the basics of using computer software on how to balance a home prepared diet
-I did an additional two weeks at the University of Tennessee in their small animal clinical nutrition service before I graduated. I learned more in depth stuff on the nutritional management of certain diseases, such as critical care patients, chronic kidney disease, pancreatitis, and hepatic encephalopathy with patients that the service consulted for. I learned how to make total parenteral nutrition, how to use a different software program to formulate diets for both healthy animals and for various disease states, how to use both NRC and AAFCO feed guideline tables, and how to surgically place several kinds of feeding tubes. I also sat in on the rather exhaustive board review sessions with the residents.
-I did a week at Georgia Veterinary Specialists in Atlanta with Dr. Susan Wynn, one of the top experts in holistic nutrition and holistic medicine in general. She has completed a nutrition residency recently at UT and should be board certified when she takes her boards. Besides getting a more in depth look at holistic nutrition, I also assisted an intern place an esophageal feeding tube.
-I was also the student rep for Natura and while not part of my "official" education, I visited their manufacturing facility in Nebraska twice and got to know their former head nutritionist Dr. Sean Delaney, who was recently the president of the American College of Veterinary Nutrition.

Obviously that's way beyond what most students would do, but as I want to do a nutrition residency, that's what I've done.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Tammy Cohen said:


> Clearly we aren't going to see eye to eye on this one. I don't have an agenda here. You can feed your dog whatever you want. You don't like abady? Don't feed it. You like feeding grains? Be my guest. Do I believe that you're wrong? Yup.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------

