# Arras Pegge



## Sami Kiiveri

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpmGAnJ5aVI&feature=related


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## Drew Peirce

If one day a KNPV hall of fame was founded, you know to give recognition to the greatest dogs the program has ever produced, I figure he would have to be one of the first inductees.


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## Johan Dekinder

top job imo! Love the slow motion.

regards, Jo


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## Tamara Villagomez

awesome dog love how he flies !!


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## Rochele Smit

Love him, (of course semi-biased seeing as how Zonya is linebreed 3-3 on him!) When I watch videos of him working, I am very muchly reminded of her.
When I first started researching the breed, he's the dog I remember the most! I was so thrilled to get a pup with such great lineage, and even more thrilled that she turned out so nice!


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## Toran Scott

How are Arras and Ruddi related... is one the father of the other? What about Arras Luijken, is he related to Arras? All seem to be very nice dogs. 
Toran


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## mike suttle

Arras Pegge is the grandfather to Rudie on the mother's side.
Arras Luijken has no Rudie or Arras Pegge in his lines, he does have Catro Janssen, which is the grandfather to Rudie Pegge on the father's side.


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## Toran Scott

Thanks Mike... I thought there were a number of Arras dogs but i also know dogs sometimes get sold and the name changes... I am assuming that Rudie has been bred more than Arras? Is there any frozen Arras still being used (i am also assuming that Arras is either gone or not producing anymore) as I haven't heard of anything off of him. Seemed to be a very cool dog, bigger than Rudie (although Rudie looks to be a bit thicker?) just curious.
Toran


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I love how he is too pussy to go center. Not impressed. I am sure that you guys are. LOL


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## Drew Peirce

It has nothing to do with being too pussy to go center, he was just doing what he had been conditioned to do a hundred times, only the limbs are targeted in knpv
dude, the dog was like 96lbs fighting weight he would be going through people if he went center


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## mike suttle

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I love how he is too pussy to go center. Not impressed. I am sure that you guys are. LOL


 Had I only seen this video and knew nothing else about this dog, I may agree with you. But I have talked to Gerben in detail about this dog. Gerben did most of the decoy work for this dog. Arras was one of the hardest hitting dogs in the KNPV program, and as a young dog he came right down the middle. The problem was that Hans was having a hard time finding other decoys to work the dog and they were afraid he was going to really hurt himself. They taught the dog to target to the outside for a saftey measure. I have seen some videos of Arras that are much more impressive than this video in this thread. I have a DVD here somewhere of a demo that Hans and Gerben did in Germany with Arras that is really incredible.
I never got see him or work him. I have talked with Judith and Guy Powell in great detail about him (They kept him for several years), as well as Gerben (did most of the decoy work for him) and Hans (who trained him).
From what I have heard he was a really good dog, and Gerben is really quick to say it if a dog is a shitter and he said Arras was really one of the best ever in the KNPV.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

It was a joke, I am sure here on facebook, it will be erased.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I wonder what Dick thinks about this dog ??


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## Selena van Leeuwen

mike suttle said:


> Had I only seen this video and knew nothing else about this dog, I may agree with you. But I have talked to Gerben in detail about this dog. Gerben did most of the decoy work for this dog. Arras was one of the hardest hitting dogs in the KNPV program, and as a young dog he came right down the middle. The problem was that Hans was having a hard time finding other decoys to work the dog and they were afraid he was going to really hurt himself. They taught the dog to target to the outside for a saftey measure. I have seen some videos of Arras that are much more impressive than this video in this thread. I have a DVD here somewhere of a demo that Hans and Gerben did in Germany with Arras that is really incredible.
> I never got see him or work him. I have talked with Judith and Guy Powell in great detail about him (They kept him for several years), as well as Gerben (did most of the decoy work for him) and Hans (who trained him).
> From what I have heard he was a really good dog, and Gerben is really quick to say it if a dog is a shitter and he said Arras was really one of the best ever in the KNPV.


"Best ever in KNPV" are big words.....

Gerben has not seen every dog and had not have every dog on the suit...... Just like I have not seen every dog or had every dog on the suit, but then again I would never say a dog is the best ever in KNPV....

Isn't it possible there are dogs like that and maybe better that where/are not brought out in contest that much.....:idea:

Arras is a good dog in his type with a very good, smart trainer/handler.......

Dick

ps

Sorry I had to react, because stating a dog is the best in KNPV, your doing a lot of other good/beter dogs short....[-X


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## Toran Scott

Mike said he was one of the best ever, not the best ever... probably be hard to call any dog the best ever. Figured Jeff was kidding, that dog obviously brings it on the long attack and if he really was 96lbs that would be a lot of force. Was he really that big? He looks big but 96lbs is monster size, how big is Rudie for comparison sake? Mike do you know if anyone has any frozen Arras or is he completely gone? Sure wish you could throw some of your vids of Arras on youtube so I could see more of him... with your dial up I'm sure that won't be happening anytime soon 
Toran


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Toran Scott said:


> Mike said he was one of the best ever, not the best ever... probably be hard to call any dog the best ever. Figured Jeff was kidding, that dog obviously brings it on the long attack and if he really was 96lbs that would be a lot of force. Was he really that big? He looks big but 96lbs is monster size, how big is Rudie for comparison sake? Mike do you know if anyone has any frozen Arras or is he completely gone? Sure wish you could throw some of your vids of Arras on youtube so I could see more of him... with your dial up I'm sure that won't be happening anytime soon
> Toran


Mike sure knows how to answer for himself, I suppose.:roll:

And Mike was not stating so but Gerben Kamphuis was......

You guys should learn not to judge everything by the video and build your opinion totaly on that.
.
A lot of real training of very, very good polkice/knpv dogs will never be on video and just there/then can you make your opinion about the quality of the dog.....

Dick


Video is always an exhibition of things someone want others to see......


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Yes, video is an expression of what others want to see, but you can't polish a turd. 

No matter what you do to a video, you cannot make the suit pop up on a weak hit.

One of the things many Euros don't understand is just how far we are away from each other. We take what we can get, and most of the time it is not all that great.

I wasn't joking about that dog, but I figured with the new foo foo board all the NON CONTRIBUTERS wanted I might get in trouble. This morning I could give a ****, they can talk about muffin recipes and whatever the **** else they blather on about. If they cannot be here for my amusement, then they can go **** themselves.

I can see what you are saying, but we really are just about ****ed over here. Video is what we have to work with. Gotta figure that you can show the pretty video, but eventually we will figure out you are full of shit, if your dog was made to look good. Some people can see it without help.


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## Harry Keely

Pegge lines have produced probally more than any other line for the KNPV champion quality dogs, Look at Rudie and how many hes produced. Just asking but are there other dogs in the KNPV that have produced that caliber. When I say that caliber I mean championship dogs, I know theres alot of strong dogs that produce dogs that get there PH 1 & 2 but I want to know if theres any others that are producing Championship competitors that actually compete in the championships? If so who are they?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Where are the winners at typically ?? Not on the high end, or is KNPV different than the rest of the dog world ?? LOL


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## mike suttle

I surely did not say that Arras was THE BEST dog in the KNPV.....I said I have heard that he was ONE of the best. I have heard this from several very reputable KNPV people who saw the dog work and compared him to all of the other dogs that they have seen. Everyone has a list of the dogs they like best from any sport. When I talk to KNPV people about the list of dogs they like best, Arras usually comes up in that list by several of those people.......even if those same people dont like Hans.
That is all I am saying.....I myself have never seen the dog. I have seen Rudie and I would not call him one of the best, but as a producer I think he has value to add to some lines.
These are only my thoughts.


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## hillel schwartzman

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Mike sure knows how to answer for himself, I suppose.:roll:
> 
> And Mike was not stating so but Gerben Kamphuis was......
> 
> You guys should learn not to judge everything by the video and build your opinion totaly on that.
> .
> A lot of real training of very, very good polkice/knpv dogs will never be on video and just there/then can you make your opinion about the quality of the dog.....
> 
> Dick
> 
> 
> Video is always an exhibition of things someone want others to see......


 Selena hit this on the head...Don't judge by video go and see the dog in training yourself...[-X


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## Harry Keely

Alright so can anybody else say that there are lines that have produce as many champion competitors in the last recent years as Rudie and if so who, just asking for my own knowledge not saying there isn't maybe others but if there are who are they, please provide proof to this as well thankyou.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Selena hit this on the head...Don't judge by video go and see the dog in training yourself...

Yes, that is what I will do, everytime I want to go and see a dog I will fly to Europe and check it out. 

More than likely I will just watch the video. Much easier, and I haven't wasted days and hundreds of dollars to go see what I just saw in the video.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

This discusion is going nowhere then "who has got the biggest.."

I will not go into that.

You win, Arras is the best of the best.........](*,)

Dick


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## Ron Davidson

I think you may be using championships as a measuring stick of greatness when it comes to the KNPV. Dick or Selena correct me if I am wrong...The greatness is measured in how many REAL certified PH dogs that can a stud can produce, its not based on how many of his progeny make the championships or podiums. The KNPV just want REAL extreme bad ass dogs to work with ...thats all!


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## Harry Keely

Ron Davidson said:


> I think you may be using championships as a measuring stick of greatness when it comes to the KNPV. Dick or Selena correct me if I am wrong...The greatness is measured in how many REAL certified PH dogs that can a stud can produce, its not based on how many of his progeny make the championships or podiums. The KNPV just want REAL extreme bad ass dogs to work with ...thats all!


Like I said earlier in the thread I know there are other strong dogs out there such as Arko, Wibo, etc.... but I was just asking a simple question of who else has produced competitors. I'm not a sporting venue person really myself and like a real hard knock, Just trying to spark conversation with a legit question and for some reason people are getting very offensive whether it be there dogs aren't these competitors or really are not sure of others which is totally cool in my book. I'm just wanting to know a simple question with a simple answer thats all.:-D


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: 
You win, Arras is the best of the best.........](*,)

I hope you are not conceding to me. He looks like a good enough dog, but what I was hoping for was a bit more information about what YOU thought of him. 

What you can tell us and video is about all we really have to go on. Poor Gerben. HA HA.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Harry Keely said:


> Like I said earlier in the thread I know there are other strong dogs out there such as Arko, Wibo, etc.... but I was just asking a simple question of who else has produced competitors. I'm not a sporting venue person really myself and like a real hard knock, Just trying to spark conversation with a legit question and for some reason people are getting very offensive whether it be there dogs aren't these competitors or really are not sure of others which is totally cool in my book. I'm just wanting to know a simple question with a simple answer thats all.:-D


Simple, Rambo from Selena's father f.e.

Dick


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## Harry Keely

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Simple, Rambo from Selena's father f.e.
> 
> Dick


O.K.=D> thankyou can you be more in detail though please to how long ago, how many, who they are, etc... also whats his brn number please there are alot of Rambos and type in Selena and it pushs me right to Wibo.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Harry Keely said:


> O.K.=D> thankyou can you be more in detail though please to how long ago, how many, who they are, etc... also whats his brn number please


 brn 11


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## mike suttle

Certianly dogs from the Pegge lines have produced many KNPV titled dogs, that can not be disputed. Pecco Pegge for exapmle has a LOT of titled offspring. But keep in mind that Pecco was bred over 300 times.


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## Harry Keely

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> brn 11


Thanks


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## Harry Keely

mike suttle said:


> Certianly dogs from the Pegge lines have produced many KNPV titled dogs, that can not be disputed. Pecco Pegge for exapmle has a LOT of titled offspring. But keep in mind that Pecco was bred over 300 times.


Mike point taken, but obviously for good reason this occured 300 x's


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## Harry Keely

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> brn 11


Thats the dog I thought you might be talking about. Alright next question how long ago did on of his progeny compete in the championships and how long ago was it?


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## Joby Becker

Gerben Interview...quoted from aedsc.com might be appropriate for this thread. might not be...

"CJ : What well known KNPV dogs have you had on the suit?
GK : Lets see, Arras Pegge, Rudie Pegge, Marko Pegge, Pecco Pegge, Kukays Quatro, Robick Kamps, Ringo Wolterink, and Rico vd Berg to name a few.
CJ : Which ones impressed?
GK : Well they were all quality dogs, but the hardest, most toughest and extreme dog I ever worked was Rico vd Berg. He was as extreme in every possible trait as a dog could be. Brutal dog.
Arras Pegge was the hardest hitting dog I ever had on the suit. Once he even knocked me out he hit that hard.
CJ : You seem to breed on a few dogs, namely Rambo Rossum, Duco 2 Seegers, Arno Kleine Schaars and Catro Jansen. What is it about these dogs you like?
GK : Rambo Rossum – Rambo always produced good dogs. He is one of the best producers the KNPV ever had. He gave hard, full pushing grips, excellent attackers and sometimes they were not easy to work with. He also gave very short build dogs, that I like.
CJ : So he got this from his father Eik?
GK : Rambo was a better dog and a better producer than Eik was. Without Rambo, there was no Eik.
"


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Harry Keely said:


> Like I said earlier in the thread I know there are other strong dogs out there such as Arko, Wibo, etc.... but I was just asking a simple question of who else has produced competitors.


Usually the most strong dogs produces not championships dogs...to hard to handle for the last points.

bloedlijnen isn't complete, Dick mentioned from his head the following offspring from Rambo who made it to the championships/became champion.

Rambo himself
Rambo 1 and Rambo 2 vd Want
Rudo van Vulpen
Kazan van het Hof (PH2)
Body Tuin
I thought the dog from Bolster
vd Steen brought a male (forgot the name)
Astra of Dick


Rambo is an anceister of Arko, Wibo/Carlos. Mike S is breeding back to Rambo in his breedingprogram :mrgreen:

To breed dogs who are a bit more easy to handle Rambo and his offspring was used much on Hogeling lines, those breeding had a click.
Arras/ Pecco/Rudie/Rocky from Hans Pegge are bred on Hogeling lines.

Depending on region people have a preference in type/breeding of dogs.


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## mike suttle

Rambo is a good example of a dog that is very significant in the Dutch breeding program. Regardless of how many titled offspring he has, or how many offspring from him went to the nationals, Rambo is a very influential dog, way more so than Arras, Rudie, and Pecco combined in my opinion. I feel the same way about Duco II from Seegers.


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## Drew Peirce

((usually the most strong dogs produces not championship dogs, too hard to handle for the last points))










Yes, I know


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## R Janssen

Here is a short history about some of the more known Mailinos in KNPV, and not only those that are known overseas.

http://translate.google.nl/translat...t/x%20mechelaars.htm&sl=nl&tl=en&hl=&ie=UTF-8

(Translation is not the best but readable.)

Its all about to witch standard's you judge a dog by.
I personally appreciative a nice attack, but I'm sure a PSD fellow will pull a hair for that, as long a he is very strong on the bite.


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## will fernandez

If nobody minds I was wondering if someone could tell me how would Duco II compare with Rambo.

I know two dutch officers that prefer their dogs with alot of rambo. I also know a broker that prefers to see plenty of Duco II. I understand what the rambo lines bring but what does the duco II line bring (speaking generally)

I saw rudie at the stud dog trial in 2003 (never saw him in training) I believed at the time that he would have been the type of dog that would have excelled at any sport. You could tell he was not a dog with anger.


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## Harry Keely

Cool appreciate it, yea I'm not stuck on champion dogs but was curious to what has proving these dogs because like you guys said not always is the top sporting dog going to produce the meanest asshole out there which i try to strive for in my own personal likes, but most seem to dislike. So was trying to get the opinions of some more seasoned people then myself, I think i got the answers I was looking for. Thankyou to those of you that posted pertinent info on these dogs.\\/


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## Joby Becker

Harry Keely said:


> Cool appreciate it, yea I'm not stuck on champion dogs but was curious to what has proving these dogs because like you guys said not always is the top sporting dog going to produce the meanest asshole out there which i try to strive for in my own personal likes, but most seem to dislike. So was trying to get the opinions of some more seasoned people then myself, I think i got the answers I was looking for. Thankyou to those of you that posted pertinent info on these dogs.\\/


Like em angry do ya?:evil:


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## Harry Keely

Joby Becker said:


> Like em angry do ya?:evil:


Yea i guess thas a way of putting it. At home with the family be chilled, cool and collective. Outside my property I prefer zero tolerance for any type bullshit as far as my personal dogs go. Others that we have trained and sold or just trained I don't promote that behavior because 99% of homes don't need nor do I suggest it.


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## Joby Becker

Harry Keely said:


> Yea i guess thas a way of putting it. At home with the family be chilled, cool and collective. Outside my property I prefer zero tolerance for any type bullshit as far as my personal dogs go. Others that we have trained and sold or just trained I don't promote that behavior because 99% of homes don't need nor do I suggest it.


Gotcha.


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## Christopher Jones

I have to come to Gerbens defence here. I have spoken to Gerben many, many times about which dogs he rates and why. He never put Arras up as the best dogs in the KNPV, only he was one of the "hardest hitting" dogs he, and others, have ever had on the suit. There is no doubt to any in the KNPV that Arras hit damm hard. Not only did he hit hard but he was a flier, getting the nickname of the "flying Dutchman". He also produced alot of his offspring who had this "flier" trait. A friend of mine trialed along side Han during Arras PH1 exam with his dog. He also had Arras on the suit and can back up Gerben on how hard he hit. From memory this guy was put out of doing decoy work for three months after a Arras son hit him straight up the middle and broke some ribs.
Gerben has always put Rambo Rossum up as the greatest producer in his mind. He has never put Arras up as in the same leauge as Rambo either as a dog or producer. 
I cant see the contraversy here. In the words of Frank Drevin "Move along people, nothing to see here"


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## Megan Bays

René Hendriks said:


> Here is a short history about some of the more known Mailinos in KNPV, and not only those that are known overseas.
> 
> http://translate.google.nl/translat...t/x%20mechelaars.htm&sl=nl&tl=en&hl=&ie=UTF-8
> 
> (Translation is not the best but readable.)
> 
> Its all about to witch standard's you judge a dog by.
> I personally appreciative a nice attack, but I'm sure a PSD fellow will pull a hair for that, as long a he is very strong on the bite.


Are there any more links to articles like this on the different bloodlines of the KNPV program dogs? Thanks for posting this one!


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## Matt Grosch

looking up the pedigrees of duco and rambo, I found the lack of brindle dogs interesting


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## Selena van Leeuwen

most good brindle dogs come from Nicky kerkoerle and Robby Buddemeijer. Those are very old Dutchie bloodlines.


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## Jessy Bains

Is coming in centre everything though? I agree that a courageous dog should come in high and centre. But is a dog automatically weak if he does not? Is there more to the picture of the dog's character? Is Mido weak because he doesn't really come in centre and is lower on the arm on long attacks but is making a mess out of the decoy on the escapes if we were only going by his video's? I'm curious to hear opinions. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIrRvf7npNM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVzVpTrDYW8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hImlHlIJTWU


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## Joby Becker

Jessy Bains said:


> Is coming in centre everything though? I agree that a courageous dog should come in high and centre. But is a dog automatically weak if he does not? Is there more to the picture of the dog's character? Is Mido weak because he doesn't really come in centre and is lower on the arm on long attacks but is making a mess out of the decoy on the escapes if we were only going by his video's? I'm curious to hear opinions.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIrRvf7npNM
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVzVpTrDYW8
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hImlHlIJTWU


As a guy who takes bites the ones that come in center are more impressive for sure, because of the reckless abandon factor, my dog does tend to slam center, but I don't like it all that much, working more towards the bicep,for safety reasons...

All it takes is a few hard impacts or one bad one..and the dog will start to gather on the approach or slow down.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: All it takes is a few hard impacts or one bad one..and the dog will start to gather on the approach or slow down.

Or not.

So a dog that bites farther down the arm, when most of the time you see all this rigamarole on the decoys suit to keep the dog from avoiding where many many say the pressure is coming from should be celebrated ??

There are dogs that target where you target them, but go center if you do not target. I call that training. I have no problem with that, but considering what I just said, what would you say ??

Oh how the water gets muddy. LOL


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## Joby Becker

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: All it takes is a few hard impacts or one bad one..and the dog will start to gather on the approach or slow down.
> 
> Or not.
> 
> So a dog that bites farther down the arm, when most of the time you see all this rigamarole on the decoys suit to keep the dog from avoiding where many many say the pressure is coming from should be celebrated ??
> 
> There are dogs that target where you target them, but go center if you do not target. I call that training. I have no problem with that, but considering what I just said, what would you say ??
> 
> Oh how the water gets muddy. LOL


When you put it that way I have to agree with you. 

However, I don't see anyone celebrating a dog like you described. This thread is about Arras. Who given his obvious speed and airtime, most likely was targeted hundreds or thousands of times for safety reasons. It's not like he is biting the forearm..LOL

If you see a dog that is avoiding what scares him the most, I think you need to get your eyes checked. The target is the same from the rear...

Oh wait, he must be scared of the guys back too....#-o


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## Johannes Gilbertson

*The BEST dog I have ever seen was an Arras Pegge son named Jackal vom Kelterhoff. He was a BRUTAL and punishing dog that was as stable as could be. He had at least one bad hip. I was told by more than one person who would know that Arras had at least one bad hip as well. How many of Arras's offspring suffered from bad hips? Jack had to be put down at 9 due his bad rear end / back / spine. I am not trying to start shit here as Jack was the best I ever saw, just not perfect. How many times was Arras bred with the full knowledge that he had bad hips? *


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## Drew Peirce

Johannes, you speak the truth.


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## Johannes Gilbertson

*Thanks brother. I had an ARRAS grandson and he had great hips but was no ARRAS so I gave him to a pet home.  *

*I LOVE ARRAS and want one just like him (almost)! :razz:*


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: This thread is about Arras. Who given his obvious speed and airtime, most likely was targeted hundreds or thousands of times for safety reasons. It's not like he is biting the forearm..LOL

If you see a dog that is avoiding what scares him the most, I think you need to get your eyes checked. The target is the same from the rear...

Oh wait, he must be scared of the guys back too....

So what you are saying is the dog was targeted to the crook of the arm. THEN you say that the dog that cannot figure out to take off at a reasonable distance, targets the same place.

Maybe you need to see the spike video a few hundred times more to see where the dog should be targeting.

Silly PP dog trainers. Try and keep up.


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## Amanda Caldron

Johannes, that is interesting topic... I haven't seen alot of direct arras progeny but the few I knew of had good hips, back and elbows. I have a arras grandson who is ofa excellent but good information.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

If he had one bad hip, there is a good chance that he got stepped on as a pup.


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## mike suttle

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> If he had one bad hip, there is a good chance that he got stepped on as a pup.


or maybe he was fed too much or was made to walk on the wrong surface, or jumped off the back of a truck and that is why he had a bad hip (IF he did in fact have a bad hip)


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I have seen plenty of fat pups with good hips to believe that shit.


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## mike suttle

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I have seen plenty of fat pups with good hips to believe that shit.


I agree 100%


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