# Barking for reward?



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

I want to teach my dog to bark for reward, NOT for protection work. Eg bark for tug, bark for ball — i tried waiting him out with a ball he becomes a statue with paw raised and eyes fixed. No real reason to teach this. Peak drive doesnt change things, possibly worse.

Tried a restrained recall but dog spazzes out on person holding him.

Naturally a quiet dog. will bark at decoy some.

Any tips.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Start with what you have. Reward barking at the decoy with tug play. The behavior that is rewarded will be repeated. As your dog barks more freely at the decoy you can start to shape it. In this case I would imprint the cue before shaping. After putting it on cue, then start fading out the decoy - no equipment, no movement, being at a farther distance - until your dog is responding to the verbal cue alone. 

This is probably the slowest possible way to do it. Keep trying to get barking other ways, sometimes they suddenly "get it" when you don't expect it!


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Have you tried backtying instead of a restrained recall?


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Thanks Anne, i have inadvertently marked the statue, as i give up and give him the reward so he thinks the game is freeze for reward. I have trained good duration lol. have acted silly trying to get a bark, only proofed the statue pose.


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

My dog sucked at barking. She would scream at the prey object/decoy during bite work and lock up and stare at me if I tried to entice her to bark at me for a toy. This might sound ridiculous, but the only time she barked in a context that I thought would be useful was when someone was at the door. So, I knocked on the door, tried to time the command "speak" with her reaction to the knocking (barking) and then marked and rewarded with a toy. It worked for me. And as off the wall as it may have seemed, she picked it up quickly and I easily phased out the knocking. Once she was barking on command for her toy, I increased the duration of the barking and then transferred this behavior to teaching her the guard/revier and transport for PSA. Until this point, getting her to do anything that sounded like a bark in the presence of a decoy was painful. Now, she is pretty good at it. 

Anyway, not sure if that helps. You wouldn't necessarily have to do it using a knock at the door. Maybe you can capture the behavior when the dog is barking on his own terms and mark it and pair it with a command. That's what I would try.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Quiet back tying after pup body slammed himself too many times, how he avoided injury is a miracle, dont know what i did wrong and have no experienced help so not doing it ever again. Yes that made him bark.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Thanks Ariel, will try something like that cos teasing isnt working. He mainly barks defencively or nothing.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Put him behind a fence he can't get over or in a pen then tees the crap out of him (without being onry about it). At first reward even a whine or squeek. He'll get the idea!


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Thanks Anne, i have inadvertently marked the statue, as i give up and give him the reward so he thinks the game is freeze for reward. I have trained good duration lol. have acted silly trying to get a bark, only proofed the statue pose.


:lol: That is funny. I have had my share of clicker-timing mistakes and dogs' superstitions! 

Did you put the "freeze" on command? It's an awesome trick to show off. Putting it on cue might free your dog to start offering new things (like barking). If you've been consistent about only clicking one un-named behavior at a time, this could be an easy solution. Worst case is you have a funny trick to show off.

Do you have a cue that means "start offering behaviors now"? Maybe teach that (imprint it), and then come back to the barking training when you can cue your dog to stop being a statue and become operant again.

You can wait out his statue. It can't last forever (he'll have to pee or sleep sooner or later). Click anything that is not a statue. An eye movement, anything. Jackpot it. He'll probably lose his mind and forget how he got the reward. You can expect to take a big step backwards and start over from zero on the second and third repetitions.

A frozen dog is no fun. But since this is a communication problem between the two of you, I think it is worth the effort to show him what you want. Your clicker training will be stronger in the future for it. What I posted above would work, but it doesn't address the problem.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

There you go, he has already done that but i didnt connect it to a solution to this problem.

Wasnt teasing dog just been caught on wrong side of fence. I hope this wont teach him to whine at a fence when i want him to jump tho??


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Can *you* restrain your dog and have a decoy (or someone you trust) teasing with a favorite toy/tug/bite pillow?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> There you go, he has already done that but i didnt connect it to a solution to this problem.
> 
> Wasnt teasing dog just been caught on wrong side of fence. I hope this wont teach him to whine at a fence when i want him to jump tho??


Just don't ask him to jump over when your working on a bark. Two different behaviors so don't connect them.
I've never had a competion dog that I taught to jump that would jump a fence without being told to if it's a trained on command behavior.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

i can do that easily, watch this;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGzoNowgq40&list=UUJzlbxvvCyyxmA--2OSWIyg&index=2&feature=plcp

just cant do it the other way around, have some strategies now tho.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

the first 9 seconds of this clip is what he has perfected, he will now freeze and tremble waiting for release.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqQp_zS10MY&feature=BFa&list=UUJzlbxvvCyyxmA--2OSWIyg


btw his prey drive is way high, if that means anything.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Bob Scott said:


> Just don't ask him to jump over when your working on a bark. Two different behaviors so don't connect them.
> I've never had a competion dog that I taught to jump that would jump a fence without being told to if it's a trained on command behavior.


 
the vid that followed yr post was in respons to Anne's post, definately try the fence thing, just wont give any distance from fence and tease at ground level i am thinking will do it - then pop a reward over fence right quick.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

btw our obed club do not allow barking for reward - its an offence that demands correction until the habit is broken.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> the vid that followed yr post was in respons to Anne's post, definately try the fence thing, just wont give any distance from fence and tease at ground level i am thinking will do it - then pop a reward over fence right quick.



Do you do any marker work with the dogs? It makes it MUCH easier for the dog to know the exact second his behavior is what you want. 
For instance
Both my dogs really understand that a marker, "yes" will get a reward. All I have to do is capture the behavior and "yes"= reward. 
When I feed the dogs twice a day Tropper can be a terrible spinner and that's usually against the sliding glass door when he's waiting. Thunder just stands patiently at the door.
I was afraid Trooper would bust the glass door because he does it with so much enthusiasm so I waited inside till he stood still then marked and rewarded by going out and feed them. It took all of 3-4 meals for Trooper to figure out that to get me out there with food he had to stand calmly. No yelling, no commands, no corrections. Just capturing a behavior with a dog that understands markers.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

will work on a obed vid to show the extent of my marker training skills, that is definately my approach, just not that good at it. 

my first marker trained dog i free-shaped everything - i ran out of stupid quick tricks to teach, she got every one of them. second dog is a more linear thinker and i used luring and ball drive - i doubt he has the same intelligence to work with as first dog and free shaping would only frustrate, i exploit his high object drive to get what i want, the mark is a release and a bite on tug/ball. my sch club when i went wanted me to switch to food reward as the dog got too wound up with objects.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> btw our obed club do not allow barking for reward - its an offence that demands correction until the habit is broken.


That OB club sounds like it blows!!


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re: 
"Originally Posted by Peter Cavallaro... 
btw our obed club do not allow barking for reward - its an offence that demands correction until the habit is broken."

"That OB club sounds like it blows!!"

yeah, based on that alone it definitely blows big time ....
definitely a suck ass club catering to prissy owners rather than the dogs :-( 

-- any club should know barking is natural and they should allow any dog present to bark at whatever the hell they feel like barking at, no matter what the reason....heck yes, if they try to control the basic instincts of a dog think how screwed up they will get !
-- same goes for biting, peeing, shitting, humping, sniffing crotches and any other "natural" canine behavior !
...don't need no stinkin rules or offenses ... let the dogs be dogs !!

wth did i just say ??? //lol//


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

i think its cos of trial requirements. Also distracts other dogs on training field idk.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re: " think its cos of trial requirements. Also distracts other dogs on training field idk."

my sarcasm was just because i'm still pissed at the gsd that pissed on my leg today 
- when he stopped to pee alongside the bushes i lost the bubble watching two kids running at us...but he lifted the inside leg and shot a streamer that hit me too ... at least i hope it was an accident on his part and not intentional 
...maybe i shoulda flanked him 

for now i'll give him the benefit of the doubt cause i haven't figured out his pee style yet ... he tends to lift either the right or left leg regardless of the intended target ... kinda weird dog anyway////likes to take a whiff of whatever he deposits


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> i think its cos of trial requirements. Also distracts other dogs on training field idk.


Um, yes. Having a dog that barks at you in his high pitched happy malinois way because he is very excited to be in the ring the entire time you are doing your routine can lose points or DQ you. I speak from experience. :grin:


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

Your guy is only a year right? Might not even be worth worrying yourself over it at the moment. My Mali was two years and a month old before he finally started barking in work. When he did it was over a stick he had been chewing and a friend of mine was messing with him (guarding the stick). He got there himself........eventually.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I like bobs idea.

put him in a kennel or something, and just play with the other dogs right in front of him, or further off, if needed.....and ignore him, until he starts barking...Dont know your dog, but that seems like it would work with most dogs...

either way, some dogs dont bark easily with reward closer to them, some dogs need the distance, restraint, etc. to get them barking..


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I guess my question is WHY??

T, who has a dog that barks for everything and I'm trying to train it out,.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I guess my question is WHY??
> 
> T, who has a dog that barks for everything and I'm trying to train it out,.


Why, béats me why, why train the send away? all just pointless stuff to do with yr dawgs for fun i guess?


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Come on peter.... Quit cheating and just figure it out.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Why, béats me why, why train the send away? all just pointless stuff to do with yr dawgs for fun i guess?


dog dancing is fun too Pete


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Why, béats me why, why train the send away? all just pointless stuff to do with yr dawgs for fun i guess?


Actually the send away is very practical. I was on about a 30' bridge the other day over a ravine or wash with 80-90 degree sides. My dog's body language showed live scent and she went down into the ravine looking for it but I couldn't get her to follow it far enough down the ravine away from me to find the training subject. :-( It was too steep for me to do without rope at that point to go with her. Wish I could climb like a dog sometimes!

Had to call her back up and work down along the side of the ravine until she worked the scent pattern out and hit on the subject who was actually on the other side right on the edge of the lip. Having a better send out would have helped me to send her farther down the wash from the bridge overlook! Would have saved me some steps. Gotta work on that!

And you could probably use it for dancing too as Joby suggested!!!

Craig


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Craig what yr describing hardly qualifies as a formal competition send away, my guess is a dog trained in a send away would prolly launch straight off that steep bank and be a liability to itself, if you train as per sch. make sure you have the physical ability to carry yr dog home if working steep terrain....just sayin.


Most untrained dogs get what scouting around beyond the handler means and many trained ones can be directed left and right, send away? i think not.


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> if you train as per sch. make sure you have the physical ability to carry yr dog home if working steep terrain....just sayin.


 
No.. definitely not the same as the sch. I'm sure. But it's still a go out. Maybe not with the technical requirements of a Sch. Rubble dogs have to be able to be sent back (or out if you want), in their directional testing for FEMA.

We try to make sure our SAR dogs DON"T go over cliffs!!!

Allthough we did have a GSD on the team that anticipated a handler's command, (that wasn't coming), to search on the other side of a wall and he jumped into a 15 foot concrete utility pit alongside a building. Thankfully he was OK and he was harnessed and lifted out.

Craig


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Thanx, would that apply to bite development as well...herding, tracking?? is it a general training statement or just one that applies to me exclusively?


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> I want to teach my dog to bark for reward, NOT for protection work. Eg bark for tug, bark for ball — i tried waiting him out with a ball he becomes a statue with paw raised and eyes fixed. No real reason to teach this. Peak drive doesnt change things, possibly worse.
> 
> Tried a restrained recall but dog spazzes out on person holding him.
> 
> ...


Take a chicken quarter, and hang it on a string, pull it up in a tree. Bring dog out, drop chicken quarter so it dangles just out of reach. (this is important) play jeopardy song, If dog does not make a peep by the end of song.... pull chicken quarter up. put dog up Do not offer the dog any food, freedom or anything else....All he gets is his jeopardy song to figure it out. If at anytime the dog makes so much as a wimper or even licks his lips, you mark and reward. Next time, You do not reward, whimpers but squeals will work, then the next time, no squeals or whimpers, just woofs, and next time do not reward whimpers, squeals or woofs, only barks. Then multiple barks. 


I don't think the dog is naturally quiet....few dogs are. I think the dog has probably never had to bark to get anything in his life. 

Well greased wheels have no reason to squeak. Make the dog go without for awhile, I bet ya he starts bitching about it. Also the song, will start becoming a source of anxiety, he will learn how the tune goes, and then as the song plays out he will start to get frantic as it gets close to the end, increasing the likley hood of a stress whine.

If the dog dies of starvation....you suck as a trainer, he lives....well, at least you did not kill your dog for a bark.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Craig what yr describing hardly qualifies as a formal competition send away.... , if you train as per sch. make sure you have the physical ability to carry yr dog home if working steep terrain....just sayin.


I think you need to know what your talkin' about before you make statements like that. The example given was a good one showing how it can be useful.

This dog has her foundation in competition SchH OB, was trained for the send away, and also does just fine on steep terrain.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Sounds like a plan, i appreciatte any training advice....i need it.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Alright, I'll take your word on that.

Since he's inclined to bark defensively at things it seems, you have already been given some advice on how to work with that. Me? I just use a little animation and frustration to get barking. Takes a little bit to find what works for each dog but you should be able to have him barking in less than 5-10 minutes.

Just watch his expression and reactions, work off marker training to reward enthusiasm and engagement and from there it will grow into him offering other behaviors of excitement (like barking).


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Thanx Nicole,also my previous post was directed at James thanking him for advice.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

pete, film yourself training it..

I was told by several people that it would be difficult to get my dog to bark, because of the breeding..

The dog has NO issues barking, I am just glad I did not encourage the dog to bark in the car, or train "guarding" the car... 

I am sure you can do it...have YOU tried barking at the dog yet? sounds silly but often works.. that is how I got this dog barking on command


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Thanx, would that apply to bite development as well...herding, tracking?? is it a general training statement or just one that applies to me exclusively?


Was this directed to my comment? If so I didn't follow. A little slow here sometimes. Can u elaborate?

I really do need to work on a send out with my dog, but I don't need the high speeds desired of sch. But a straight directional send out under control is. So I'm always looking for help. I simply commented because you seemed to put the send away in the same category as teaching a poodle to spin while standing on their back legs. My comment was that a send away is a valuable tool. Sch. likes them fast. SAR a tad slower. But the mechanics shouldn't be that different.

Craig


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Watch the duck dogs work a sendout. Makes Sch look like a walk in the park.


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

Bob Scott said:


> Watch the duck dogs work a sendout. Makes Sch look like a walk in the park.


Bob, 

I actually saw a live demo just last week. Very cool!

Craig


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Craig Snyder said:


> Was this directed to my comment? If so I didn't follow. A little slow here sometimes. Can u elaborate?
> 
> I really do need to work on a send out with my dog, but I don't need the high speeds desired of sch. But a straight directional send out under control is. So I'm always looking for help. I simply commented because you seemed to put the send away in the same category as teaching a poodle to spin while standing on their back legs. My comment was that a send away is a valuable tool. Sch. likes them fast. SAR a tad slower. But the mechanics shouldn't be that different.
> 
> Craig


Too confusing, my reply was to James.

Yes a send OUT is useful in a lot of contexts, a send AWAY in a sch. context is as pointless as the poodle example JMO, i dont do sch. so i guess ignore anyways.

My training the bark is also pointless, as already mentioned, just want to do it because, no reason or justification.


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> My training the bark is also pointless, as already mentioned, just want to do it because, no reason or justification.


No problem!

Training a bark doesnt have to be pointless. Can come in handy if you want your dog to bark and warn a stranger or a visitor at the door.

Be careful what you ask for though. Once he learns to bark you may regret it! #-o

Craig


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Lol, yes most people say, yr training him to bark WTF??? They kick the shit out of their dogs FOR barking. The walls do shake, just wanted a prey/play bark on command.

I will vidéo his natural bark, big booming warning bark, would back off most people.

Thanks for advice everyone, much appreciatted.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

It's not pointless. You may not use a bark on cue, but that is not the only value. Training difficult behaviors - ones that the dog is not naturally inclined towards or ones that were suppressed in previous training - is excellent for relationship building. If you can work through these challenging behaviors, anything that you do on the training field will be easier. You will learn more about how your dog thinks. Your dog will develop trust and have improved willingess to participate in training.

The bark on cue behavior has plenty of practical applications. I'd say it is the one behavior people ask me for the most - and use it to help manage disabling anxiety disorders and PTSD. I certainly rely on my service dog's and my fiance's pet dog's natural barking to alert me to anything that might aggravate symptoms. Like someone coming up the driveway or a neighbor coming over to talk to my son.

Training bark on cue is also on my list. I want the behavior of holding my dog back on a harness or hold him (he is small) and it going ape shit on command. Will I use it? Probably not, I've only used it once (with a previous dog) when a threatening person came to my door. But knowing that I have the option of using it relieves anxiety to a point where I can function (not hide in a closet when I hear the doorbell).

Every dog-handler team has different objectives and challenges. I think it is in poor taste to tell someone else their goals are "pointless."


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Holy sheet Anne, you completely nailed my motivation for this excercise in the first paragraph. I could not express that so defaulted to the bs pointless answer to avoid an explanation i couldnt make.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

once you teach the bark, it is also quite easy to teach "quiet" or whatever too...comes in handy more than the barking


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

I am not buying that the whole teaching a dog to do something operantly is some sort magical relationship builder or trust building exerise. That is not requred. A relationship and trust can be built sans formal training. 

Sort of like the Pet dog people who claim early training will curb social problems.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

I'm not claiming that operant training, as a method, is magical trust building. It's pretty easy to stress a dog out and shut it down in operant training. Working with your dog with any non-abusive method is beneficial. If you start working through challenging behaviors, you'll see results. It's difficult and most people don't bother to do it - or they keep swapping dogs until they finally find one that doesn't need that work. 

Training is essential for bonding - at least on the human side of it. A person's bond with their dog relies directly upon the dog's behavior. On the dog side, it's obvious to see the difference between a dog that is showered with affection only versus a dog that gets to interact/play/train. When you get a dog, is it cuddles and kisses or a good game of tug? Why do you think that is?


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