# in-crate aggression



## ann schnerre

what do you all think is an appropriate correction, if one is even called-for, for a 17 wk old GSD pup going ballistic when the family cat crosses the room?

he doesn't go ballistic on a consistent basis; sometimes yes, sometimes no. usually the "yes" is shortly after he's been out, walked/worked, then crated (while still having some drive "bleed-off", if that makes sense).

so far i've been ignoring it, but if he shows me that he'll be a loudmouth during training/trialing, then he gets to own a bark collar. it's early days for that yet, but it may be in his future.

so: thoughts? i lean toward ignoring it at this point, but a little input can't hurt (can it?, lol).


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## todd pavlus

Let him go after the cat. He'll either attack it or the the cat will wip his little ass...and it will provide some entertainment8-[


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## Mike Scheiber

I would grab a broom or a rake and jab the f*** out out him till hes quiet


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## ann schnerre

OMG!! if he's loose, i let him go after the cat--the cat whups his a$$!! 

mike, he's little enough that if i wanted to whup his butt, i'd haul him out and commence a "come to jesus" meeting. 

now, with those 2 options addressed, any other CONSTRUCTIVE thoughts? not that i'll listen to them anyway


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## Connie Sutherland

Is the cat-crossing the only time he does it?


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## ann schnerre

no--he's very inconsistent. sometimes it's cat, sometimes it's Gracie, sometimes either/or can go by and he doesn't react at all. 

i'm starting to think his "reactivity" is linked to when i'm home, though THAT puzzles me b/c i don't (so far anyway) respond to all the fuss and corruption. maybe he freaks when i'm not home, i just don't know it. 

asked cait: he does freak randomly, she (says) she either ignores him or tells him "SHUT UP".

but so far no ryhme or reason is apparent.


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## Timothy Saunders

ann schnerre said:


> no--he's very inconsistent. sometimes it's cat, sometimes it's Gracie, sometimes either/or can go by and he doesn't react at all.
> 
> i'm starting to think his "reactivity" is linked to when i'm home, though THAT puzzles me b/c i don't (so far anyway) respond to all the fuss and corruption. maybe he freaks when i'm not home, i just don't know it.
> 
> asked cait: he does freak randomly, she (says) she either ignores him or tells him "SHUT UP".
> 
> but so far no ryhme or reason is apparent.


 I normally kick my crate when I want my dog to shut up.. unless you are sure what is setting him off I wouldn't punish for that


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## Al Curbow

It's just basic obedience and house manners Ann, if you don't want him barking in the crate, take the time to teach him a quiet command.

I notice a lot of replies lately are about compulsion where it's not needed and stems from a lack of understanding of very basic training. At the end of the day you should be able to give your dog a command in or out of the crate and it should obey you.


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## Howard Gaines III

Just tie the stupid puppy to the head of the cat and wait...and wait some more...if the puppy is quiet that means the cat ate him!


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## ann schnerre

thanks al--i kinda knew it already, "house manners" i get. just like teaching him "that's enough" when he alerts at someone at the door. he already knows "uh-uh", so this should be fairly simple.


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## Guest

Al Curbow said:


> It's just basic obedience and house manners Ann, if you don't want him barking in the crate, take the time to teach him a quiet command.
> 
> I notice a lot of replies lately are about compulsion where it's not needed and stems from a lack of understanding of very basic training. At the end of the day you should be able to give your dog a command in or out of the crate and it should obey you.


Good post Al.

Ann, aside from teaching obedience commands, desensitizing your pup to the cat is going to make your life a whole lot easier for the next 15 years or so. Classical conditioning will go a long way here.


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## Mike Scheiber

Mike Scheiber said:


> I would grab a broom or a rake and jab the f*** out out him till hes quiet


E-collar or one of them cheep BB-gun's if you got a good aim


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## Don Turnipseed

An old dogman, Henry Johnson, once said something to the effect that every time you impose something unnatural on a dog, you are going to lose that much of the natural side that makes him a dog.
I always keep that in mind with the dogs. ie "Is this want of mine going to be worth losing yet another piece of what makes my dog what he is?" It's natural for dogs to hate cats.


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## Guest

Don Turnipseed said:


> It's natural for dogs to hate cats.


No its absolutely not natural for dog to hate cats. You are imposing a human sentiment upon a canine. Dogs will chase and kill animals through their predatory drive, not hate. In wild dogs and wolves this drive is very pronounced and means life or death. 10,000 years of domestication have changed this drive in canis lupus familiaris. Domestic dogs have highly variable predatory drive. Some dogs will chase, kill and eat every cat they see if given the chance not matter what you do to modify this behavior, others will be ambivalent, some will ignore the cat completely and lick their own balls, others will treat the cat like a snuggle pal.


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## Don Turnipseed

Vin said
" You are imposing a human sentiment upon a canine."

Talk about imposing human sentiment on a dog Vin! I don't know what kind of dogs you have been around but the only ones I have seen that will tolerate cats have been raised with them and the owner gives corrections if the dog even acts like he might want to tast it. Even then, the only safe cat is the one he was raised with.
It always amuses me when people say my dog is good with cats and when you watch the dog with the cat around, the dog stares at the owner and won't even dare look at the cat for fear of being corrected.
Your 10,000 years of domestication doesn't hold water because damned few dogs like cats considering the whole population. The dog in question in this thread being one of them.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Don, Vin thinks girls are smarter than boys, and that Elizabeth Lambert is a mean person. LOL


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## Don Turnipseed

Doesn't surprise me Jeff.....and he thinks he has an AB too. I wonder what it really is, cuddled up to all those cats.


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## Konnie Hein

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Don, Vin thinks girls are smarter than boys,


Well, I agree with Vin on that!


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## Debbie Skinner

Put the cat in the cage and let the puppy be out free! 

Seriously I've raised both cats and dogs for many years. Some dogs just grow up not liking cats and others like them. However, of the dogs I've raised here from puppies and kept to adulthood, I would say about 80% are safe around cats. Safe meaning that they will greet the cat by licking its nose are posterior. I don't call "safe" a dog that is afraid to "see" the cat due to severe corrections from the owner.

I've noticed having a barrier like a fence or kennel door separating them can get the dog excited about the cat. Also, it seems at times that my cats taunt the dogs. Without a barrier many have a more favorable reaction toward the cats. 

Disclaimer: I think it's always a risk due to the great size difference of the adult dog vs cat normally ends only one way. Also, an adult cat can harm a puppy especially be scratching it's eyes.

I've bought adult titled dogs that got along great with cats even though they were never around cats before. Also, I've had several dogs that would kill cats even after being raised with cats. 

Additionally, I've observed that my father who is a cat hater has never owned a dog that wouldn't kill a cat. So I think it can be encouraged and "nurtured" in this direction as well.


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## Connie Sutherland

Al Curbow said:


> ... if you don't want him barking in the crate, take the time to teach him a quiet command. ... very basic training. At the end of the day you should be able to give your dog a command in or out of the crate and it should obey you.



Crazy talk. 

:lol:


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Well, I agree with Vin on that! 

Ever see the test results on that ?? Brutal..........for girls that is.


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## Don Turnipseed

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Don, Vin thinks girls are smarter than boys. LOL


I bit my tongue on that one for fear of reprisal.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I am not afraid. However, if they actually do look up the results, it will sting a little................or a lot.


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## Don Turnipseed

Debbie, breeding what it is today, sure there are dogs with no natural instincts. I say not liking cates is far more natural to dogs than dogs that like them. Years ago when dogs were allowed to wander loose, cats definitely kept to the high ground or died.


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## Don Turnipseed

Connie, Al says it is simple obedience. I have trouble with that. I just came back in the house from running five deer off to shut the dogs up. I need Al to come up and show me this simple obedience on 20 dogs with deer, or a cat outside the fence.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I thought they ran hogs ?? If they hit a deer trail, I guess you are eating venison right ??


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## Connie Sutherland

Don Turnipseed said:


> Connie, Al says it is simple obedience. I have trouble with that. I just came back in the house from running five deer off to shut the dogs up. I need Al to come up and show me this simple obedience on 20 dogs with deer, or a cat outside the fence.





Oh, sorry. 

I had the idea that Al was talking about one indoor dog and a cat that lives in the same house.


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## maggie fraser

I think there are a lot of dogs that can be taught to get along with cats and live within the same house, whether they like them or not. Control outside the house can be a different matter though. I agree re house manners, my three year old gsd who's been raised with the cat since a pup still finds it difficult but he's been taught to control himself, and this same cat came into my home as a young feral cat. I had two gsds and two jrts at the time - all cat chasers!


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## Konnie Hein

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I am not afraid. However, if they actually do look up the results, it will sting a little................or a lot.


You are such a button pusher! :razz:


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## Debbie Skinner

Don Turnipseed said:


> Debbie, breeding what it is today, sure there are dogs with no natural instincts. I say not liking cates is far more natural to dogs than dogs that like them. Years ago when dogs were allowed to wander loose, cats definitely kept to the high ground or died.


Well, I don't need a Malinois or Beauceron (dogs that I own) to act like a wolf or breeds that like to kill small animals as their #1 drive. I really think it depends on the breed and even the bloodline of a breed. I have not heard that Belgians or Beaucerons of years past were known as "cat eaters". 

If I had to choose, I'll take a dog that is brave against a fight with a human over one that will kill a cat any day. 

I've seen so many rescues that are represented as having "prey" drive and good for work according to their "foster moms" as they sure want to kill cats and squirrels. ](*,) I have no use for dogs that would rather hunt and kill animals vs working for me. 

I do think dogs learn from each other and what some will call "natural" instinct is learned behavior. If you raise a puppy with a pack of cat killers or car chasers, etc. the puppy picks up the behavior of the pack.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I take it you looked it up and were ashamed at falling for the non stop propaganda.

I think the communists do the same thing to their people.


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## Konnie Hein

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I take it you looked it up and were ashamed at falling for the non stop propaganda.
> 
> I think the communists do the same thing to their people.


OMG - how did you know that?! #-o:-D


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Because i am smarter than you ! Ha ha


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## Konnie Hein

Well there ya go! :grin:


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## ann schnerre

well, SO FAR, correcting him w/an "UH-UH" for barking at the cat while crated doesn't seem to have reduced his drive to investigate the cat or chase him if he (the cat) runs. this cat will indeed tease a dog, but he's pretty smart, and doesn't actually run unless he knows he can reach a safe place. otherwise, he stays put and does a little "you WILL respect me" training.

he also sets himself up as a training distraction: when we're outside training, he'll just follow along, not running, 25-50 yds away, with the occasional "meow" just to remind us that he's there.


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## Howard Gaines III

Ann you aren't paying attention, tie the two together...animal bonding...! :---):-$


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## Carol Boche

I agree with Al! 
And, is he in a more high traffic area of the house? I usually start with the crate in a less traveled (not isolated though) area and gradually move the crate around the house to more traveled area.....

All my dogs ignore whatever is going on in the house (except for strangers entering for the first few seconds) unless I say "are ya ready?" 

Then they get up and wait quietly for me to open the door and invite them out.


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## susan tuck

Actually I do think you can "no" a lot of the stuffing out of a dog. This is an area where having a kennel can be a real advantage, if in the house all the time, pups/young dogs have to suffer through a jillion stiffling house manners, including don't chase the cat, don't jump on the furniture, don't get in the trash, don't jump on the company, on and on and on. I know more than one trainer who for this very reason alone, believes kennels are best for raising puppies and dogs. With my own, other than house training, I don't teach them a lot of "no" until they are closing in on a year. Much of the puppy stuff goes away as they mature anyways. I mean of course there is discipline, but not what the average house pup is put through for this exact reason. Also why I have always had a seperate kennel for my dogs (until my FIL decided to dismantle mine......don't ask). My dogs do have lots of house time, but they also have lots of their own time in the kennel (or did until recent events which I hope to remedy soon), frankly I think a dog naturally needs the quiet of his own den.

Now regarding this cat situation, let the meet each other, just make sure the cat can get away on his own, jumping up or out or whatever. He'll probably spank the puppy a couple times but most likely eventually the pup will learn to leave him alone.


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## ann schnerre

howard, would you please read carefully before you answer the question? you ARE a teacher, right? you know the drill...

anyway, Ike and the cat (Oreo Oscar Sylvester Stallone, BTW), do indeed know each other and interact on a daily basis both in the house and out. Ike acts like a pup and chases Oreo; Oreo either runs or whups up on Ike.

my concern was Ike acting like a big bad dog in the crate when Oreo strolls by, and that behavior carrying over to other situations, like training/trialing (where i cannot STAND dogs that go ballistic when someone walks past them--"pet" peeve, haha). 

i haven't had a pup act like this before, so just wanted to pick some brains. though the crate is in the living room, we don't get a lot of company here, and he definitely has quiet time to just chill out when i'm at work, Grace and Cait are sleeping in the back, and Oreo's outside (hopefully killing varmints). 

thanks for all the feedback; think i'll go with either kicking the crate or the broomstick. perhaps throwing a rock/chain. i'll let y'all know what works best. a "scientific experiment" for the board.


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## Guest

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Don, Vin thinks girls are smarter than boys, and that Elizabeth Lambert is a mean person. LOL


Damn right girls are smarter than boys. Elizabeth Lambert plays dirty and I guess you are implying... what? That I'm a girl? Jesus, you're such a marine. Where's the barking spider emoticon?? :razz:

Ann-
The process of desensitization involves many steps, not least of which is proximity of the stimulus. You can't expect your pup to ignore your cat just becasue you say "uhuh". You have to break down the exposure to stimuli into very small increments and address each one individually. Write it down if you have to or you will get lost.


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## ann schnerre

sorry vin, but i DO expect the dog to not react to the cat while he (the dog) is in the crate. granted, he's a pup yet, but he ain't gonna learn any younger that raising cain at the cat is unacceptable. 

and, as long as saying "UH-UH" stops the behavior, i'm good with it. thanks for your input !


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## Al Curbow

Here's a video for ya Don, this guy can help you with the dogs and the deer. 



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFP28ANXLLA


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## Gillian Schuler

Quote Debbine Skinner: I've bought adult titled dogs that got along great with cats even though they were never around cats before. Also, I've had several dogs that would kill cats even after being raised with cats.
Unquote

Um Himmels Willen, what's the title got to do with it?????

I agree with the second part, however.


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