# Really, is it really this SIMPLE??



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

drunken quote by ME...

"Training can overcome and achieve any expectation in a dog....unless, that expectation is based on a lack of drive, nerves or courage in the dog..or the trainers ability"....


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Works for me


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

this I posted on another board in regards to asocial and/or unstable dogs in regards to the ability to accept friendly handshakes before, during, or after bitework... and household manors in dealing with people in the home..whether the dog wants to attack people or not...

My dog wants to bite everyone that come into the household, except for family...I "think"...but she never has...why is that?


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## Darrel Martin (Sep 4, 2010)

I like that quote but I question how well a dog can be trained to do something... eventually in the higher spectrum of things, he will not make the cut among the very best... that have been breed for it!

You have conditioned her that it's not allowed..? I would suppose...


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> My dog wants to bite everyone that come into the household, except for family...I "think"...but she never has...why is that?


Because you do not have any friends????


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Doug Zaga said:


> Because you do not have any friends????


not true...

I was not referring to this dog specifically..
I was in regards to the dogs in AUS on the ned board.

here was my post...

*



X PERSON...

. This is my own personal opinion, not everyone will agree but I believe...

Even with unsocial dogs that hate people. it is a simple matter to get ANY dog to allow a handshake.. 

It is also a fairly simple matter to have ANY dog in the house with visitors (that do not try to interact with the dog, or do something really stupid like try to wrestle with you)

It is actually very simple...It all boils down to TRAINING, and CONTROL of the dog. Simple in theory, and concept, maybe not so simple in practice depending on who the people are that are involved.

some dogs take more work, some owners and handlers will never get the control needed, but that is not really an issue with the dogs themselves, that is an issue with the training and handling of the dogs.

Dogs will do whatever bad things WE allow them to do, they will also do what we require them to do, if properly trained and handled....

If I expect a dog to sit calmly for a handshake before and after bitework, he will, regardless of his termperament. I will make sure of it.

If I expect the dog to sit or lay down while people are over that he hates, he will do so, I will make sure of it..

If dogs cannot do this, and it is expected for them to do so, by their owners, this is a control problem.

This is one of the reasons I really am not for putting true working type dogs in the hands of regular folks and families...that do not know how to train and handle working dogs...where they are expected to just naturally behave like a housepet.

This inevitably leads to people breeding "working" dogs to fit into family households, expected to be fine with any old idiot owner and handler...which in turn hurts the breed as a working type breed...

Click to expand...

*


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## Darrel Martin (Sep 4, 2010)

This is good stuff... Esp. Since my pup hates everyone! Lol


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

*X PERSON...

"This is my own personal opinion, not everyone will agree but I believe...

Even with unsocial dogs that hate people. it is a simple matter to get ANY dog to allow a handshake.. 

It is also a fairly simple matter to have ANY dog in the house with visitors (that do not try to interact with the dog, or do something really stupid like try to wrestle with you)

It is actually very simple...It all boils down to TRAINING, and CONTROL of the dog. Simple in theory, and concept, maybe not so simple in practice depending on who the people are that are involved.

some dogs take more work, some owners and handlers will never get the control needed, but that is not really an issue with the dogs themselves, that is an issue with the training and handling of the dogs.

Dogs will do whatever bad things WE allow them to do, they will also do what we require them to do, if properly trained and handled....

If I expect a dog to sit calmly for a handshake before and after bitework, he will, regardless of his termperament. I will make sure of it.

If I expect the dog to sit or lay down while people are over that he hates, he will do so, I will make sure of it..

If dogs cannot do this, and it is expected for them to do so, by their owners, this is a control problem.

This is one of the reasons I really am not for putting true working type dogs in the hands of regular folks and families...that do not know how to train and handle working dogs...where they are expected to just naturally behave like a housepet.

This inevitably leads to people breeding "working" dogs to fit into family households, expected to be fine with any old idiot owner and handler...which in turn hurts the breed as a working type breed..."



*Hard to disagree with! I would add leadership skills to your "training and control".


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

I happen to think the handshake thing is a total waste of time. It is totally unnecessary.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Patrick Murray said:


> I happen to think the handshake thing is a total waste of time. It is totally unnecessary.


Ha ha, tell that to Hank Hill. After all, it was a mere handshake that nearly kept him from voting in the presidential election.


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## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

Joby Becker said:


> drunken quote by ME...
> 
> "Training can overcome and achieve any expectation in a dog....unless, that expectation is based on a lack of drive, nerves or courage in the dog..or the trainers ability"....


Hard to disagree with, in other words, training can achieve anything, as long as the trainer is perfect and the dog is perfect. Kind of like I could have been in the MLB Hall of Fame.....if I had a perfect coach, and I was good enough!


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

jim stevens said:


> Hard to disagree with, in other words, training can achieve anything, as long as the trainer is perfect and the dog is perfect. Kind of like I could have been in the MLB Hall of Fame.....if I had a perfect coach, and I was good enough!


And I would have been in the NBA if my height matched my weight and I was really good at basketball ;-)


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> drunken quote by ME...
> 
> "Training can overcome and achieve any expectation in a dog....unless, that expectation is based on a lack of drive, nerves or courage in the dog..or the trainers ability"....


How about dogs with health issues? Can you train legless dog for SAR?

How about prior training that has FUBAR-ed the dog?


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## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

Christopher Smith said:


> How about dogs with health issues? Can you train legless dog for SAR?
> 
> How about prior training that has FUBAR-ed the dog?


Joby's drunken quotes don't take that into account. If the trainer is perfect, he can fix that. He stated he was intoxicated, it sounded good at the moment. Leave it at that.


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Christopher Smith said:


> How about dogs with health issues? Can you train legless dog for SAR?
> 
> How about prior training that has FUBAR-ed the dog?


You can strap him to a skate board, and keep him on lead


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> How about dogs with health issues? Can you train legless dog for SAR?
> 
> How about prior training that has FUBAR-ed the dog?



Great for boat work! Strap it to the bow. :razz: :wink:


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Joby, 

I have a dog who "willingly" would not allow any person into the garden or household.

Okay, if I let him go first when I open the door, he would put up a "convincing" show.

As I gave English lessons for the last few years, I made him lie down on a mat and could open the door and let in the student without his interference.

However, this instinct to "kill" the intruder is in the dog and if I were to let him believe he was the "owner" of the house, we would have trouble.

Training is a good thing but not 100% reliable.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

jim stevens said:


> Joby's drunken quotes don't take that into account. If the trainer is perfect, he can fix that. He stated he was intoxicated, it sounded good at the moment. Leave it at that.


A drunken statement deserved a drunken response.


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

I'll agree with disclaimer. I'll also take a chance some dog lovers and the protection folks will hate me for saying it.

1) no.. not every dog can be trained to an acceptable level. I'll agree that with the perfect trainer, and given enough time and effort, you might get any dog to an acceptable level. But I don't think you can get them to a point of 100% reliability. For things like leaving the yard, chasing cats, a slow down, long stay etc.. I'm willing to accept a 90%-95% reliability. But in the example of a visitor in my house, I expect 99.99% reliability in knowing a (or my), bite trained dog will not bite a visitor without a direct command. If I constantly have to look over at my dog to see if they are showing any signs of agressiveness and I can't enjoy my company than that is not 99.99% reliability and the dog needs to be elsewhere, (crate or kennel). For that, I would say not every dog can be that reliable regardless of the trainer and their abilities.

2) I've seen rescused and abused dogs that are not recoverable. Some taken in by the best trainers. And while some of these dogs wound up becoming acceptable living companions for very specific, carefully selected owners, they were far from acceptably trained and socialized to the point of even being strictly a good family pet with careful vigilant owners.

3) I am an animal lover and I think all dogs deserve a chance. But I'm a pragmatic as well and with the number of deserving dogs out there that need homes, and the time and money available, many of these dogs need to be put down. 

4) Good training is important but I do believe genetics is crucial and you can very easily have untrainable dogs from the get go. It's probably rare given the level of domestication we have but just as dogs can be born with malformed limbs, they can be born with malformed brains and neuro-chemical deformaties. Close breeding can often times bring out these unwanted traits.

This all IMHO. 

Craig


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