# Hardest hitting female award



## Christopher Jones

goes to this female
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CG4KZMubltw&feature=related
but no surprises he is a 4/5ths sister to my male


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## Gerald Dunn

nice hit =D>


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## john simmons

Crappy catch...


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## Christopher Jones

john simmons said:


> Crappy catch...


 For real? Newbie? IPO trainer?


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## susan tuck

looks to be a big girl too!


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## john simmons

Yup, watched the video 2 more times- crappy catch. Only thing that gave was the dog's neck.... Wouldn't want my dogs caught like that- short working careers.


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## john simmons

Nice dog, tho...


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## Benjamin Allanson

Was he trying to jam the dog??? Dang


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## Selena van Leeuwen

john simmons said:


> Yup, watched the video 2 more times- crappy catch. Only thing that gave was the dog's neck.... Wouldn't want my dogs caught like that- short working careers.


Pretty normal stick attack performance knpv trial style...


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## Christopher Jones

john simmons said:


> Yup, watched the video 2 more times- crappy catch. Only thing that gave was the dog's neck.... Wouldn't want my dogs caught like that- short working careers.


you should really get a bit more knowedge of the KNPV before you make such stupid comments. Kinda makes you look like your in the wrong place on this forum.
Maybe you could try this one?
http://www.i-love-dogs.com/forums/dog-show-talk/


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## Christopher Jones

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Pretty normal stick attack performance knpv trial style...


Thought you would have learnt by now that you Europeans dont know what you are doing with working dogs. :-\":roll:


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## john simmons

That helper makes a crappy catch and you call me a newbie? I wonder what the experienced handlers, helpers and trainers would think on this forum would think. Besides, I've never heard of you Brian, so I don't think you are in any position to make a call on that catch. You kinda sound pretty young and immature- and what's with the real angry dog on your forum photo. Wonder what that is making up for? Any experienced people like to comment on that video? Please just state if you would like your dog caught that way....


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## James Degale

Who the hell is Brian?


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## Clark Niemitalo

Can i see some video of what you guys consider a great catch..My opinoins don t matter so just curious what you guys think..


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## john simmons

Clark, this is not about great catches. Just safe catches. You've caught enough dogs to know when you caught the dog safely on a long bite. I'm sure you might even had a few jams over the years- all good helpers have. Really, the question is, would you be happy if one of your dogs were caught like that? To be fair to the helper, it could've been a misread on the dog's approach or just timed it wrong. Still think the dog came in nice- Chris is correct there. I was only commenting on the catch...


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## Daniel Lybbert

I find it interesting that its considered a hard hit. No kidding it is. The decoys dont even move. The dogs have a static target. No different than Sch. KNPV is super cool but to say that they are the hardest hitting is a bit over kill. Start esquiving them make the dogs think and hunt a bite a bit then find the hardest hitters. Just my opionion


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## Mo Earle

Nice looking girl, thought the decoy did fine-he actually presented her the target, she took it and he bent with her-didn't fall then continued to work her-didn't seem to me like she got jammed-, she was in the pocket with a nice bite.


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## andreas broqvist

Watsh the hits and how the catshes dog in KNPV her. Its the championship. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPXL33bufn0


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## john simmons

It was a late Christmas eve and an early Christmas morning- I meant Christopher. Sorry folks. No issue with him anyway, just don't understand the "I'm an authority" remarks if someone sees something on a vid or pic. Or worse if someone who doesn't post at all finally does, we assume they are inexperienced or newbies. Merry Christmas, Christopher!


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## Brian Anderson

nice dog ...


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## Jason Davis

john simmons said:


> That helper makes a crappy catch and you call me a newbie? I wonder what the experienced handlers, helpers and trainers would think on this forum would think. Besides, I've never heard of you Brian, so I don't think you are in any position to make a call on that catch. You kinda sound pretty young and immature- and what's with the real angry dog on your forum photo. Wonder what that is making up for? Any experienced people like to comment on that video? Please just state if you would like your dog caught that way....


It's a typical KNPV catch. It's whats required of the decoy. Not a crappy catch. The dog just happens to slam her body across the decoys body, making it look worse than it really is.


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## Kadi Thingvall

Jason Davis said:


> The dog just happens to slam her body across the decoys body, making it look worse than it really is.


Which leads to a question for the KNPV people. In this type of catch, which is safer for the dog, throwing their body across the decoys, or not? In a situation where the decoy is not going to be spinning with the impact, I would think across to body would actually be safer, keeping their spine straighter and also spreading the force of the impact across the dogs entire body, instead of just the neck/shoulders.


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## john simmons

It is ALWAYS the job of the helper- in any protection sport- to catch the dog as safely as possible. "the dog slammed her body across the helper" is not ok. It's an impact, and it affects the dogs. Just a question- could it be that over time, we are allowing more than we used to in the way of responsibility on the helpers? ie- in schutzhund, this flying the dogs on the sleeve in a big circle on the long bite is the trend now. If you watch the dogs body in slo-mo, the torquing of the spine and neck could be extreme. But it looks flashy. The jerking of the sleeve on lockups as well. In the full body suits, we were always taught to give to the dog, kinda like catching a fast baseball- the glove goes with the ball. Now it seems, we put onus on the dog for a clean catch? 
I know some may say this catch is ok and others not. But in the end, the safety of the dog is always paramount!!


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## Zakia Days

KNPV has been going on for a lOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong time! In fact in the same manner you just observed in the video. I'm sure they've perfected that catch just as long ago. Someone already mentioned that sometimes we all make a sucky catch or misread a dog or misjudge a distance, but as far as knpv goes that catch looks fine. Now if you're a helper or participant in knpv then perhaps more credence can be given to your observation. But if not then perhaps you don't know how it should look. I'm sure knpv helpers know exactly how to catch the dogs in a safe manner.


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## Thomas Barriano

john simmons said:


> It is ALWAYS the job of the helper- in any protection sport- to catch the dog as safely as possible. /QUOTE]
> 
> Hi John
> 
> I think that's the point. KNPV isn't a sport. It's designed to produce police dog candidates. The decoy's job is to test the
> dogs training and drive, acting as much as possible like a criminal on the street with NO decoy training? At least that's my take on the situation.


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## john simmons

Tom- great point! But I haven't seen a live bite on a perp yet where he/she didn't give to the dog-trying to avoid the bite. That would alway be enough give to absorb the bite.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

We prefer body slam, outside, swinging could cause neck/ back hernia's.
Will look for vid of some of ou dogs, moment please

Robbie, trial

http://m.youtube.com/?client=mv-google&gl=NL&hl=nl&rdm=4ozmbjrar#/watch?v=1aDHduxbD1E

Spike training

http://m.youtube.com/?client=mv-goo...er=selenavanleeuwen&v=MKdQbK8D_Vw&view=videos

http://m.youtube.com/?client=mv-goo...er=selenavanleeuwen&v=mLEW-RPWIhQ&view=videos


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## Jason Davis

john simmons said:


> It is ALWAYS the job of the helper- in any protection sport- to catch the dog as safely as possible. "the dog slammed her body across the helper" is not ok. It's an impact, and it affects the dogs. Just a question- could it be that over time, we are allowing more than we used to in the way of responsibility on the helpers? ie- in schutzhund, this flying the dogs on the sleeve in a big circle on the long bite is the trend now. If you watch the dogs body in slo-mo, the torquing of the spine and neck could be extreme. But it looks flashy. The jerking of the sleeve on lockups as well. In the full body suits, we were always taught to give to the dog, kinda like catching a fast baseball- the glove goes with the ball. Now it seems, we put onus on the dog for a clean catch?
> I know some may say this catch is ok and others not. But in the end, the safety of the dog is always paramount!!



Would it be possible for you to post a video of you catching a dog, KNPV style, so I can get a grasp of what you're talking about? Actually, could I see you catch a dog in any style so I can witness your expertise? In KNPV, there is no swinging or giving into the bite. You run right through the bite. It's the standard KNPV test for the dog. That was a typical test for a dog with so so speed. It would be great to see a video of you catching a dog so we could all have an example of a "proper" catch. Thanks!


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## john simmons

(Would it be possible for you to post a video of you catching a dog, KNPV style, so I can get a grasp of what you're talking about? Actually, could I see you catch a dog in any style so I can witness your expertise? In KNPV, there is no swinging or giving into the bite. You run right through the bite. It's the standard KNPV test for the dog. That was a typical test for a dog with so so speed. It would be great to see a video of you catching a dog so we could all have an example of a "proper" technique)

Thanks for your input Jason. It was very insightful! This was an opinion conversation, not an absolute proof of right or wrong. I have a way that I train mine and others dog and you have yours. I hope it is successful for you!


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## rick smith

i can't see the point in debating the safe way to catch a dog

when a dog hits a decoy, there is a COLLISION any way you look at it
a long send away equals more speed and mass, which equals a HI SPEED collision
- and in general, the more experienced the decoy, the safer they are
...not much more to it. imo of course

sure there are really bad ways to hurt a dog but it has been decided a long time ago that in ring sports it's necessary to catch and stop a dog with a full head of steam targeting a body part and that the dog then hangs on with it's MOUTH full of whatever ... that's exactly what we want to see and there is a proportional "given" that the higher the speed and the more impact, the more applause ... takedowns are usually considered a "ten" 

anyone who says there is no danger involved is in denial and anyone who thinks there is only one way to "safely" catch all dogs under any circumstance is just as wrong 

there can easily be a LOT of torquing force applied and jamming impact on necks/jaws/shoulders etc 
- the dogs should be in shape and conditioned to handle it ...that's what they are trained and conditioned for ...they are tuff animals which is why you can break a stick over their head with cracking a skull
- same goes for the decoy side and they expect to get hurt sometimes too
- plus dogs can't sue ... if it was reversed and ONE human was seriously injured, that would be one too many and there would be serious repercussions similar to american football, but they still wouldn't ban the sport 
- accidents happen to both dog and human - always have always will

and afaik, there is no penalty system in place that is applied to a decoy who "unsafely" catches a dog or any rule that affects the points of that portion of the event either due to "decoy error"
- if the OP feels strongly that dogs are being put in harms way by unsafe decoys, they could try lobbying in that direction


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## Kadi Thingvall

rick smith said:


> a long send away equals more speed and mass,


Yes and no. Once a dog hits it's top speed, it's going as fast as its going to go, and at that point any extra meters it runs aren't increasing speed or impact. They may be decreasing it though depending on the distance and dogs physical condition (ie it gets tired). Dogs can reach their top speed in around 30 feet so once they've gone past 10 meters, say 15 for a dog who is a little slower to get started, more distance isn't going to matter. If they are a dog that "brakes" at the last second, or accelerates at the last second, that happens a few meters from the decoy, all the meters inbetween "top speed mark" and about the last 5 meters are just extra running.



> and afaik, there is no penalty system in place that is applied to a decoy who "unsafely" catches a dog or any rule that affects the points of that portion of the event either due to "decoy error"


You mentioned Ring earlier, but this is a KNPV thread, so I'm not sure which one you are talking about here. I don't know about KNPV, but in FR there is a penalty system in place for decoys who are unsafe, or make errors. The judge fills in basically a "decoy scoresheet" at the end of each trial, and low scores on that sheet can negatively effect a decoy, for example preventing them from attempting to achieve a higher level of certification. A judge can also just flat out remove a decoy from a trial, in the middle of the trial, if they feel the decoy is being unsafe, making to many errors, etc. And they have the option of giving dogs points in an exercise when a decoy is unsafe/illegal. IE the decoy gains 3 meters on an escape, but does it using an illegal move, the dog wouldn't loose the points for those meters.


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## Christopher Jones

john simmons said:


> It is ALWAYS the job of the helper- in any protection sport- to catch the dog as safely as possible. "the dog slammed her body across the helper" is not ok. It's an impact, and it affects the dogs. Just a question- could it be that over time, we are allowing more than we used to in the way of responsibility on the helpers? ie- in schutzhund, this flying the dogs on the sleeve in a big circle on the long bite is the trend now. If you watch the dogs body in slo-mo, the torquing of the spine and neck could be extreme. But it looks flashy. The jerking of the sleeve on lockups as well. In the full body suits, we were always taught to give to the dog, kinda like catching a fast baseball- the glove goes with the ball. Now it seems, we put onus on the dog for a clean catch?
> I know some may say this catch is ok and others not. But in the end, the safety of the dog is always paramount!!


 There is no "Catch" in KNPV. The decoy runs at the dog head on and the dog attacks the decoy head on. Thats why is called a "Courage test". Nice eacy catches doesent test courage does it? Thats why the IPO "courage test" doesnt require much actual courage. 
Your observation was wrong, you had a go at a KNPV guy when you had very little knowedge on what you were looking at in the first place.


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## john simmons

Well Christopher, I didn't see in the OP where it said it was a KNPV dog. It just said something about a hard hitting dog. Didn't know I was having a "go " with a KNPV guy. Had I known, I never would mussed up your hair, big guy. I'll be more careful next time. To the few who added some positive insight on KNPV expectations- thank you!


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## Christopher Jones

john simmons said:


> Well Christopher, I didn't see in the OP where it said it was a KNPV dog. It just said something about a hard hitting dog. Didn't know I was having a "go " with a KNPV guy. Had I known, I never would mussed up your hair, big guy. I'll be more careful next time. To the few who added some positive insight on KNPV expectations- thank you!


 Dude, Im no KNPV guy, my remarks were that you made negative comments about the KNPV decoy in the video, basically saying he was doing a shit job, when infact he was doing the right job. I didnt need to write in the OP that it was KNPV, two seconds of watching the video it was obvious what it was. I can only gather your pretty new to this sport so maybe you should tread more lightly when you see things you dont understand. When you see french ring decoy hit the dog a dozen times with the stick, dont assume he is abusing the dog. When you see the belgians throwing water over the dogs, dont think thats unfair.


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## john simmons

2 seconds in, I saw a dog running at a guy in a bitesuit, making what I saw as a questionable catch. If a helper has a sleeve, is he schutzhund or working a grip for another sport. The vid you posted looked like it was in some backyard. Still a nice dog from the short video you posted. Chris, I'm not new to dog sport or personal protection training or the various tests put on dogs in the different sports. I was only starting a conversatIon about safety of the dogs. You can still do courage tests in all these sports safely. If not, just tie a tug to a cinderblocks wall and see whose dog has the balls to run head first into the wall to get it. That might be KNPV2? Just kidding, DUDE! Hope you had a Merry Christmas today!


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## rick smith

altho i didn't write it up clearly, my reply was obviously NOT directed at Christopher 

courage testing is interesting for me; glad it was brought up
.......heck, i even "courage test" pet dogs that come to me from owners who think they are fearless "home protectors" 
...amazing at how many Fearless dogs will not even jump over a short wall if they haven't seen what's on the other side of it and the owner isn't on the other side waving a hot dog at it


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## Marta Wajngarten

john simmons said:


> 2 seconds in, I saw a dog running at a guy in a bitesuit, making what I saw as a questionable catch. If a helper has a sleeve, is he schutzhund or working a grip for another sport. The vid you posted looked like it was in some backyard. Still a nice dog from the short video you posted. Chris, I'm not new to dog sport or personal protection training or the various tests put on dogs in the different sports. I was only starting a conversatIon about safety of the dogs. You can still do courage tests in all these sports safely. If not, just tie a tug to a cinderblocks wall and see whose dog has the balls to run head first into the wall to get it. That might be KNPV2? Just kidding, DUDE! Hope you had a Merry Christmas today!


If you couldn't even recognize in an instant from watching that video that this was a KNPV decoy and dog (which I think was blatantly obvious) how are you even remotely qualified to be critiquing this?


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## chris race

Christopher Jones said:


> goes to this female
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CG4KZMubltw&feature=related
> but no surprises he is a 4/5ths sister to my male


 Very Nice!!


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## Harry Keely

I thought the video was good to go, both dog and decoy, they both look like how its done in the KNPV, I see nothing wrong with any part of this video JMO.


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