# If one of your dogs washes out...



## Sandra King

... do you keep it or do you re-home the dog. 

I possibly have to face that one of my dogs may wash out health-wise. I have an appointment for his health evaluation so nothing is for certain. I bought him specifically for the purpose of SAR but he got injured and I am not sure how bad it really is and if he will actually come around or if I have to take him out completely. 

I am not sure if I should simply keep him and get a fourth dog or, if it comes down to it, re-home him since I swore myself to never have four dogs at the same time again. 

It would be a shame. He's got everything a good search dog is supposed to have and I really hope I don't have to make that decision, especially since I fell in love with him already. 


How do you feel about decisions like that? Have you had to make a decision? Would you re-home one of your dogs because of SAR?
I know it happens all the time with departments and professionals but I am a volunteer, not a professional. So how about you?


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## David Frost

I find it a home. If it can't work, it isn't worth feeding -- to me.

DFrost


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## Nancy Jocoy

I kept them as pets and that is why my third dog was bought as a young adult as will be my fourth.

One dog had bad nerve another bad hips if it was just low drive I would rehome it.


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## Don Turnipseed

I think it is a personal decision that only you can decide.....or anyone else for their own dogs.


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## Jim Delbridge

I agree with Don. I adopted a Breed Rescue dog because he has all the attributes of a working dog, but was screwed up by humans. I've learned from him as I do all my dogs. Plus, if I go out on a search or seminar, taking my two working dogs with me then I know my land is protected. On the occassions that my neighbor's cattle breakdown the fence, he has been very useful as a cattle dog.

On my working dogs, if they wash out, I figure I owe them as I created who they became and I figure I owe them a retirement package whether it be for six months or six years. All my working dogs have washed out for health reasons and I can't fault them for that. Except for the puppy, all have made finds. In my book if an HRD dog makes one valid find then it contributed. Heck, I know area search dogs that never make a find for a multitude of reasons, but they cleared areas where the "victim" wasn't .

Jim


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## Jennifer Michelson

I swore that if my newest dog didnt make it for sar, that I would rehome him. So far so good and as it is a year and a half having him, not sure I could let him go now. He is a very nice guy. But technically, I dont have a problem with rehoming.


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## Alison Grubb

I will not keep a dog that is not able to be worked. They will either be rehomed or be put down depending on the individual circumstance. 

That said, I have one dog here who is not up to par with my other dogs working-wise but I feel I owe him something different because I acquired him as a pet before I ever got into this stuff. Dogs that I acquire for the express purpose of work, are held to different expectations.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

we rehomed 2 females we kept for breeding purposes, they didn't meet up to our breedingstandards so we found them a good home for free. Another female we had 3 litters with we also gave away. To young to stay only in kennel and not being worked.
2 others, few years back, washed out for working reasons, a pedigreed malinois and a pedigreed gsd: both sold. The mali female was very suited for IPO, both doing IPO next to KNPV was to time consuming.

the reason for washing out, the time and space you have all count, that is for you to decide.


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## Nancy Jocoy

The main thing I won't do is if I have a lemon I will not try to make lemonade. 

The day I learned Cyra had bad hips even though she was not showing much in the way of pain,I washed her. It took me longer, with Toby my first dog as I was facing reality..and learning that a dog that has to "get over" new things, even if he succeeds with coddling, does not have the nerve strenght for the real world. The team was patient enough with me that I figured it out on my own.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Sandra, what's the health issue? Feel free to PM me if you like. :smile:


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## Sandra King

I will get the official stats tomorrow. So up until now it's hanging in the air. 

It's one of his front legs, he came running towards the house, jumped up the stairs in full speed and all of a sudden he screamed in agony. It wasn't broken and a couple of minutes later he was fine. I crated him for a while and took it slow with him because I did not think much of it. However, unless he stresses his joint, he's not limping but I noticed that whenever he is outside for more than 15 minutes, running, he starts limping since the "incident". Some said that it could be pano but since I know the history I don't think that it is pano. First I thought it's the shoulder but they more I watched they more I think it's coming out of his paw/pasterns (he doesn't have weak pasterns). 

Which is why I had it checked out, I also have an appointment to get pre-lims of his hips and elbows. I want to know exactly what is going on before I make a final decision.


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## Daryl Ehret

For me, "ideally", I would rehome them. Otherwise, it's taking up the space of a better specimen that can earn it's keep. I've been known to hold on longer than I should, because of sentimentality for a particular dog. But in the long run, it's best to get them into a home whose owner has fewer demands on their attention, so they can be happier than is possible with me.


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## Gillian Schuler

I respected the honesty of our Fila Brasileiro breeder in Germany.

If any of the newborn pups were not likely to lead a healthy life, she hit them against the wall (it doesn't need much at this tender age, so don't think she's cruel). Any pup that would have not been breed worthy, but obviously healthy, she gave away.

I wonder how many breeders keep up to this standard? It saves a lot of heartache for "wouldbe owners" I think.

Personally, no dog that we acquire as handlers leaves us. We vet the breeders and the pups and have fared well. If any dog were to fall below our expectations, he would not be "passed on". I admit we are only handlers and, even then, I can appreciate that handlers with higher aims than ours maybe (??) would wish to pass on a pup / dog that didn't suit the bill and move on to another, but often I see that not just the dog is lacking..........maybe the same dog with another handler........

That's our way of doing it - but I can accept other's sometimes


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## Jim Delbridge

sounds like a possible anterior cranial cruciate ligament problem, they can slip out of the groove and need to be tacked down. A handler I used to work with had this go bad in one of her GSD's front elbows. An orthopedic vet fixed it and she worked for several years after that. The handler died before the dog retired.

Jim


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## Nancy Jocoy

Gillian Schuler said:


> I respected the honesty of our Fila Brasileiro breeder in Germany.
> 
> If any of the newborn pups were not likely to lead a healthy life, she hit them against the wall (it doesn't need much at this tender age, so don't think she's cruel). Any pup that would have not been breed worthy, but obviously healthy, she gave away.
> 
> I wonder how many breeders keep up to this standard? It saves a lot of heartache for "wouldbe owners" I think.
> 
> Personally, no dog that we acquire as handlers leaves us. We vet the breeders and the pups and have fared well. If any dog were to fall below our expectations, he would not be "passed on". I admit we are only handlers and, even then, I can appreciate that handlers with higher aims than ours maybe (??) would wish to pass on a pup / dog that didn't suit the bill and move on to another, but often I see that not just the dog is lacking..........maybe the same dog with another handler........
> 
> That's our way of doing it - but I can accept other's sometimes


I think we are talking about animals that fit the bill when they were selected not to knowlngly start with a defective animal.


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## Gillian Schuler

The title is " if one of your dogs washes out............"

so how could they have "fitted the bill when they were selected" as you put it??


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## Maren Bell Jones

Jim, I don't have my anatomy text handy, but do you mean stifles (knees)? I don't think the elbow has cruciate ligaments.


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## Sandra King

> I respected the honesty of our Fila Brasileiro breeder in Germany.
> 
> If any of the newborn pups were not likely to lead a healthy life, she hit them against the wall (it doesn't need much at this tender age, so don't think she's cruel). Any pup that would have not been breed worthy, but obviously healthy, she gave away.
> 
> I wonder how many breeders keep up to this standard? It saves a lot of heartache for "wouldbe owners" I think.


That must have been like 40 years ago. It is highly illegal and against the pet protection law nowadays to do it. However, back then, like 40 years ago it was a common thing to do. Nowadays, you'd be charged with pet cruelty if you did that and it came out. 

As for the standard, my pup is from a small but highly reputable German Shepherd Breeder in Austria who mainly trains in Germany at the SV Club in Tengen with Juergen Ritzi who was the Breeder of dogs like Gildo vom Koerbelbach, Gary vom Koerbelbach etc. 
While the Sattelberg Kennel is a rather small kennel, his dogs are highly successful and mine are not the first dogs out of his Kennel going into SAR. 

The Breeder has one of the highest standards and competes at world class level, even after his best dog (Orry vom Gehrenmoos) died shortly after his last litter (my boys) was whelped. 

So I can assure you that my puppy is not from a poorly bred line. He comes from a working dog breeder and was specifically picked for that purpose.


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## Sandra King

Gillian Schuler said:


> The title is " if one of your dogs washes out............"
> 
> so how could they have "fitted the bill when they were selected" as you put it??


Due to an injury not related to training, for example? 

Your gets mauled by another dog, hit by a car, breaks a leg... so many possibilities why a dog can be washed out even though he previously fit the bill.


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## Gillian Schuler

No, come down from your preacher's pedestal!!!

It is never a crime to eliminate pups that do not have a chance to live healthy lives!!

Some take them to the vet and are at his hands as to whether they should live or not. Some, serious breeders, do this within the first few hours.

Some breeders have year long experience - have you had this?


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## Gillian Schuler

Sandra King said:


> Due to an injury not related to training, for example?
> 
> Your gets mauled by another dog, hit by a car, breaks a leg... so many possibilities why a dog can be washed out even though he previously fit the bill.


And what would you do with such an unfoirtunate animal??


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## Sandra King

Gillian Schuler said:


> No, come down from your preacher's pedestal!!!
> 
> It is never a crime to eliminate pups that do not have a chance to live healthy lives!!
> 
> Some take them to the vet and are at his hands as to whether they should live or not. Some, serious breeders, do this within the first few hours.
> *
> Some breeders have year long experience - have you had this?*


I am originally from Germany and grew up with breeding successful working line German Shepherds. 
Life-long, first hand experience. We never threw puppies against the walls. The practice is called "Merzen", however it is illegal and against the law and I would not support such practices and wouldn't want to buy from a breeder like that either.


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## Sandra King

Gillian Schuler said:


> And what would you do with such an unfoirtunate animal??


That is what I am debating. While my father already advised me to re-home him because he has the same view as DFrost that a dog has to work and earn his food, I am my own person and have to make the decision myself. 

I just wanted to have other opinions and how others feel about re-homing a dog that has washed out because of an injury. 

The injury is not his fault so I will probably keep him, plus I believe my husband has a word in it too, even though he doesn't work the dogs. But we paid for him together, he is his owner just as much as I am.


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## maggie fraser

Where are all these homes that take on a dog with an injury ??

My dog is scuppered, I thought real hard about a tap on the head for him last year due to a spinal issue which is/will not resolve itself. When this dog was a puppy, I stated quite convincingly how I would not tend to another less than healthy dog, if he doesn't cut it, he goes....simples!

The brute is still with me, I both love and hate him...at least his tracking is improving.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Sandra King said:


> I will get the official stats tomorrow. So up until now it's hanging in the air.
> 
> It's one of his front legs, he came running towards the house, jumped up the stairs in full speed and all of a sudden he screamed in agony. It wasn't broken and a couple of minutes later he was fine. I crated him for a while and took it slow with him because I did not think much of it. However, unless he stresses his joint, he's not limping but I noticed that whenever he is outside for more than 15 minutes, running, he starts limping since the "incident". Some said that it could be pano but since I know the history I don't think that it is pano. First I thought it's the shoulder but they more I watched they more I think it's coming out of his paw/pasterns (he doesn't have weak pasterns).
> 
> Which is why I had it checked out, I also have an appointment to get pre-lims of his hips and elbows. I want to know exactly what is going on before I make a final decision.


Sandra, I would not wash a good dog for an injury that can be worked around. I won't speculate what it is as I don't diagnose via internet, but I have some suspicions. Let us know what the elbow rads show.


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## Sandra King

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Sandra, I would not wash a good dog for an injury that can be worked around. I won't speculate what it is as I don't diagnose via internet, but I have some suspicions. Let us know what the elbow rads show.


Will definitely let you all know what is going on. I really hope that it is just something minor and that it can be fixed since he's a young dog.


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## milder batmusen

I would rehome him or her if the dog does not have the drive to work or is not what I'm searching for in a working dog.

if the dog has a nervous trends or something I probably would put if to sleep.

I live in a appartment so I cant just keep dogs as pets and buy another, we can have two dogs in our appartment so the dogs I keep have to be what I'm searching for or else a new home:-\"


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## Nancy Jocoy

Gillian Schuler said:


> The title is " if one of your dogs washes out............"
> 
> so how could they have "fitted the bill when they were selected" as you put it??


Gilian - that is why I am going for a young adult instead of a puppy - you know darned well that a puppy can develop HD, may not wind up with as much drive as you like, etc etc.

If someone wants to keep their animal who is not perfect as a pet, I am not sure why they should be judged for it. What they should be judged for is if they try to take the unsuitable animal and work around its deficiencies. That is probably ok for someone doing sport and it may just make them a better trainer but If a problem can't be fixed the dog can't work. Too much is at stake.

If they want to and can rehome the dog that is also fine.


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## Gillian Schuler

Nancy, 

HD isn't a problem, or hasn't been for the last three dogs. Leistungshunde GSDs are more or less HD-free over here (from a serious breeder).

I don't judge full stop.

I agree with you on trying to train an animal around its deficiencies


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## Sandra King

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Gilian - *that is why I am going for a young adult instead of a puppy - you know darned well that a puppy can develop HD, may not wind up with as much drive as you like, etc etc.*
> 
> If someone wants to keep their animal who is not perfect as a pet, I am not sure why they should be judged for it. What they should be judged for is if they try to take the unsuitable animal and work around its deficiencies. That is probably ok for someone doing sport and it may just make them a better trainer but If a problem can't be fixed the dog can't work. Too much is at stake.
> 
> If they want to and can rehome the dog that is also fine.


I actually came to the same conclusion. From here on out, I am going for young adults. Puppies are a gamble. While a dog can always be injured somewhere along the line you don't have the health gamble. 

I know many people want puppies but for this kind of work it's better to get a young adult instead.


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## Jim Delbridge

That'll teach me to talk on the phone and post at the same time. You're right, the cruciate ligament is in the knee, not the elbow. I called the handler's husband and asked him what the procedure was and he said it was on the medical collateral ligament in the elbow. It had to be tacked back down as it lost bone attachment.

My current working dog had a fractured coronoid process of the left elbow which showed a small chip. $1200 later and a couple of months where he and I did hydrotherapy together, he was good as new. Consdering what most handlers pay for their imported dogs, I considered this a bargain as he'd come from ranch stock. I'm pretty sure the fracture was on me as I think he did it on a search pursuing scent. The partial lameness could be the fractured coronoid process as I noticed it before anyone else did.

Thanks for keeping me straight,

Jim


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## Sandra King

Gillian Schuler said:


> Nancy,
> 
> HD isn't a problem, or hasn't been for the last three dogs. Leistungshunde GSDs are more or less HD-free over here (from a serious breeder).
> 
> I don't judge full stop.
> 
> I agree with you on trying to train an animal around its deficiencies


Agreed. Even the "noch-zugellassen" isn't found as much as it used to be. 

Yet, it's not a guarantee that your dog is going to be HD free. It's still a gamble and you just don't know until you got the results in "black&white" in your hands.



> $1200 later and a couple of months where he and I did hydrotherapy together, he was good as new. Consdering what most handlers pay for their imported dogs, I considered this a bargain


850 Euros for the dog plus 500-600 Euros shipping, another 300 Dollars to drive to NYC (and back home) to pick him up...yeah... 1200 bucks was cheaper to get your dog fixed instead of buying one from overseas.


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## Jim Delbridge

Every dog is a gamble, regardless of age. If you start with young adult then you are gambling that the breeder had a clue. I'd rather start with a puppy good stock that I've tested myself.

Jim


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## Maren Bell Jones

Jim Delbridge said:


> That'll teach me to talk on the phone and post at the same time. You're right, the cruciate ligament is in the knee, not the elbow. I called the handler's husband and asked him what the procedure was and he said it was on the medical collateral ligament in the elbow. It had to be tacked back down as it lost bone attachment.
> 
> My current working dog had a fractured coronoid process of the left elbow which showed a small chip. $1200 later and a couple of months where he and I did hydrotherapy together, he was good as new. Consdering what most handlers pay for their imported dogs, I considered this a bargain as he'd come from ranch stock. I'm pretty sure the fracture was on me as I think he did it on a search pursuing scent. The partial lameness could be the fractured coronoid process as I noticed it before anyone else did.
> 
> Thanks for keeping me straight,
> 
> Jim


No problem, just made me think for a bit if there are cruciate ligaments in the elbow. :lol: Incidentally fragmented medial coronoids are VERY common in GSDs as part of elbow dysplasia (my own Rottweiler has them in both of her elbows). That's one of the first things that I thought of, which is why I look forward to the elbow radiographs. Glad your boy did well with the surgery. Did they use an arthroscope?


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## Nancy Jocoy

Jim Delbridge said:


> Every dog is a gamble, regardless of age. If you start with young adult then you are gambling that the breeder had a clue. I'd rather start with a puppy good stock that I've tested myself.
> 
> Jim


I don't understand how a young adult which I have tested, others have tested for me/with me, and has had health screenings and good gentics, on is not less of a risk than a puppy.


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## Sandra King

Nancy Jocoy said:


> I don't understand how a young adult which I have tested, others have tested for me/with me, and has had health screenings and good gentics, on is not less of a risk than a puppy.


Agreed. Another plus is that you can start doing some serious work with a young adult while with a puppy you can only do limited things due to their age and attention span.


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## Gillian Schuler

Apart from the fact that the young dog would have to be 16 months old approx. to have secure HD and ED X-Ray results, no problem at all.

I would prefer to bring up a puppy myself, but that is irrelevant to health.


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## Jim Delbridge

I've seen a lot of young adults exhibit bizarre fear triggers after the fact because you just don't know what all to test for. I've seen lots of breeders that advertise great SAR stock yet they don't search themselves or, more likely, they shouldn't be searching with what they've got. 
Worst is when I watch someone pay enormous amounts of money for SAR stock because the breeder has lots of dogs in SAR and the handler just expects the dog to come out of the crate at the airport ready to deploy. Those are the ones I see wash out more often than not.

A friend of mine tested some lab puppiess for her daughter. She found one that was perfect for the drives, temperment, body style, but didn't want to select for her daughter who was going to be there a week later. So, a week later they retest. The one that was best now exhibited odd fears. Turns out this puppy was the favoritie of the breeder's ten y/o son and he was upset with losing this puppy, so took the puppy with him everywhere for the past week during a fear period.

I like to start with a puppy from sound stock as young as possible because I can control its environment, I can encourage what I need and discourage what I don't in such a way that I know I won't be squashing the dog's drives or personality. Afterall, part of the reason I chose the dog was for his/her personality. Health first, nose second, personality third. The only guarantee I want from the breeder is the puppy is going to be healthy (as much as we can predict) and the breeder didn't go to any special efforts to encourage the puppies towards my needs. If they want to get them on Head Start - cool. If not, that's ok too. I look for the naturals. One breeder did everything by what all her breeder experts advised and she had a head start in the basement. Only problem was it was raining too much and the puppies never saw the outdoors except for 10 minutes. I test out in an unknown outdoor evironment if at all possible. All the puppies freaked because of the "great outdoors." I had to pass on all of them. Many are turning into agility and show champions. I'm happy for them, but none had the right mix for me.

If my dogs wash out, I want it to be because of me because of how much I invest into them. I want to limit the number of unforseen gotchas as much as possible. Considering a dog's learning curve is highest at 4 to 16 weeks of age, that's when I want the puppy to start it's training, to build its foundation. I want to build on an obsession to the scents I want the dog to find. At young adult stage, the best I can hope for is a so-so worker. I want more.


Jim


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## milder batmusen

what does SAR mean:?:


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## Sandra King

milder batmusen said:


> what does SAR mean:?:


search&rescue


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## Nancy Jocoy

search and rescue


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## Joby Becker

I will give you a hint Milder. It is the name of the section of the workingdog forum that contains this post..


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## Nancy Jocoy

Jim, well

Dunno most military and police dogs are bought as young green dogs having been raised to a certain point by someone who knows how to raise such a dog.

I am sure a lot of folks would argue with you about how so so their dogs are. I have seen soso dogs raised and imprinted as puppies and really good ones started as young dogs. And vice versa.


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## David Frost

Sandra King said:


> That is what I am debating. While my father already advised me to re-home him because he has the same view as DFrost that a dog has to work and earn his food, I am my own person and have to make the decision myself.
> 
> .



Keep in mind, my view is the perspective of a professional trainer and program manager. I don't babysit. I'm spending money that belongs to someone else. There is time when you cut your losses and start anew.

DFrost


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## Harry Keely

I have high standards so the answer is NO NO NO HELL NO if it washes out, did it once as a favor to the wife about 10 years ago it was the first and last. There are no more favors as mean as it sounds. If its a adult I try to rehome and will make the owner pay and do a no breed contract to avoid the continue of shit being produced. If its a pup bred by us that doesn't meet the standard of my views I give it away to a family or friend, never a stranger to re assure the no breed. If I buy a pup thats not working out I will sell it for next to nothing if anything to get rid of it as fast as possible to avoid paying future food and vet bills. JMO:-\"


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## Sandra King

David Frost said:


> Keep in mind, my view is the perspective of a professional trainer and program manager. I don't babysit. I'm spending money that belongs to someone else. There is time when you cut your losses and start anew.
> 
> DFrost


And I fully understand that. We have earned money with dogs & horses and you can't keep them all. There is a difference between pet & professional & working/sport dog ownership. 

Professionals can't afford to keep a dog that isn't worth to put all the money into it and it needs to be replaced asap.


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## Joby Becker

one thing I have tried to share with my idealistic dog lover friends is that once you get past a hobby/comfort zone of owning or being involved with dogs on a certain level..., DO YOURSELF A FAVOR AND LOOK AT DOGS LIKE LIVESTOCK...useful...or useless...

you can have your 1...2 favorites or "pets"...but if you try to keep and love 4,5,6+, 12+ useless dogs...YOU WILL BET BURNT OUT ON DOGS...before you reach your idealistic working goals...and become some slave to your dogs...or worse yet a "hoarder"


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## Nancy Jocoy

Joby Becker said:


> one thing I have tried to share with my idealistic dog lover friends is that once you get past a hobby/comfort zone of owning or being involved with dogs on a certain level..., DO YOURSELF A FAVOR AND LOOK AT DOGS LIKE LIVESTOCK...useful...or useless...
> 
> you can have your 1...2 favorites or "pets"...but if you try to keep and love 4,5,6+, 12+ useless dogs...YOU WILL BET BURNT OUT ON DOGS...before you reach your idealistic working goals...and become some slave to your dogs...or worse yet a "hoarder"


My limit is three dogs at any given time. I have lived with three dogs off and on for many years and they can all get needed attention. ..... Dog number 3 needs to "work" if it does not work out THAT dog will go as I am attached to the others - and hope to get a few more working years out of Grim. Both dogs are 8. So I figure in 4-6 years I will be getting a new dog after training the next dog I get next year. It is all planned.


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## Joby Becker

Nancy Jocoy said:


> My limit is three dogs at any given time. I have lived with three dogs off and on for many years and they can all get needed attention. ..... Dog number 3 needs to "work" if it does not work out THAT dog will go as I am attached to the others - and hope to get a few more working years out of Grim. Both dogs are 8. So I figure in 4-6 years I will be getting a new dog after training the next dog I get next year. It is all planned.


better to think (-)1-3...instead of 4-6  (never know)


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## Nancy Jocoy

Joby Becker said:


> better to think (-)1-3...instead of 4-6  (never know)


Oh sure if one dies before 4 to 6 years there is room for the next dog but if I get a young dog next year, I should be in good shape to have him trained in 6 mos to a year. No issues with Grim right now and actually the older he gets the better he is at detail work. I am hoping for 2 more years with him which would put him at 10 to stop working. Maybe older for some of the tedious stuff. 

So the 4-6 years is based on an estimate of the current dogs living 12-14 years which seems to be about what I 'get'.


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## Joby Becker

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Oh sure if one dies before 4 to 6 years there is room for the next dog but if I get a young dog next year, I should be in good shape to have him trained in 6 mos to a year. No issues with Grim right now and actually the older he gets the better he is at detail work. I am hoping for 2 more years with him which would put him at 10 to stop working. Maybe older for some of the tedious stuff.
> 
> So the 4-6 years is based on an estimate of the current dogs living 12-14 years which seems to be about what I 'get'.


again the net is allowing me to attribute heart strings that are probably NOT there...

good for you.. 10-12-14 yrs of workability is ambitious...if you can do it...great..if not..?? I surmise you will make a productive decision, based on your posts.. I for one will not make you feel guilty for making a tough decision, if you share it..


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## Maren Bell Jones

Hey Nancy, just curious cause I would like to know more about the needs of working SAR and detection dogs...what is the fitness level needed for a dog doing the various disciplines compared to a fairly competitive protection sport or agility dog, say?


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## Nancy Jocoy

Joby Becker said:


> again the net is allowing me to attribute heart strings that are probably NOT there...
> 
> good for you.. 10-12-14 yrs of workability is ambitious...if you can do it...great..if not..?? I surmise you will make a productive decision, based on your posts.. I for one will not make you feel guilty for making a tough decision, if you share it..


Oh certainly. Don't forget dog acquired next year should be working by 2 when Grim is 10. Not counting on him working past then and 10 is ambitious but I think realistic given the nature of the work.

Then THAT dog will be at most (if Grim lives to 14) 6 when the next dog comes in. Even in the unlikely event Grim is going strong at 14, Cyra (who is same age) has severe dysplasia and will probably wind up PTS when things start going downhill.........right now she is just fine with nothing more than fish oil and the ocassional dermaxx.

So yes, succession planning realizing even the best plans go bad. I am not one to throw thousands of dollars into keeping an ailing dog alive....


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## Nancy Jocoy

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Hey Nancy, just curious cause I would like to know more about the needs of working SAR and detection dogs...what is the fitness level needed for a dog doing the various disciplines compared to a fairly competitive protection sport or agility dog, say?


To me the biggest difference is prolonged endurance is required.

More on that later......I think it varies depending on the type of SAR work they do...SOME cadaver work is not so physically taxing but very tedious. I think you can work an older experienced dog on a shallow grave search in a small area but may not want him covering large acreage anymore looking for a body...some of the old dogs I have seen are great at detail work...one of our best water dogs was older....... 

Jim? what is your take for cadaver disciplines. Many of searches now I would say fairly high because the dog is covering 30-40 acres and have to traverse steep terrain and jump over deadfall etc. and heat tolerance is important etc. I frequenty cast him down bridge embankments and he has to push through kudzu which requires some power.

Live find dogs I would say more physicality - what say the others - about 80 acres in 4 hours depending on terrain? Sound about right? Disaster dogs even more so with the stress and rubble.

----

I think one thing that is very different for SAR dogs is maybe training 30 minutes or so a day (us) and then some long time spent on weekends and during searches. Unlike working LE dogs working every day.


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## chad paquin

I have placed 2 dogs. 1 didnt work out the other blew out a knee. Only have room for 1 dog and I wont to trial and train so it leaves me no othrr choice. Wish I had the room i would keep them they both were great dogs. And i feel they are in great homes.


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## Sara Waters

At age 6 one of my best dogs did 2 cruciates which I had fixed but I wound back on trialing with her. She has been an amazing competition dog and given her all for me over the years. I would never dream of getting rid of her, she would protect me with her life and our bond is exceptional.

I then got a young dog as my up and coming youngster and she was diagnosed with mild ED and had bilateral surgery. A real shame and major dissapointment as she was just what I was looking for apart from the ED. She is a wonderful character and excellent obedience dog although obedience is not really my thing, but she is staying. She is sound and I could probably push her much more and do agility with her but I know elbows and I dont want to shorten her life.

I have my working sheepdog youngsters that are currently fit and healthy, but the 2 above dogs are my favourites so they stay, just means I have 6 dogs instead of 4. Doesnt burn me out and I love working with them all, although life is very busy. 

If I didnt have the room for more dogs they would still stay. I do understand that other people think differently, if you can rehome them to great homes that is good. As to thinking of them as livestock - cant do.


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## Jim Delbridge

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Jim, well
> 
> Dunno most military and police dogs are bought as young green dogs having been raised to a certain point by someone who knows how to raise such a dog.
> 
> I am sure a lot of folks would argue with you about how so so their dogs are. I have seen soso dogs raised and imprinted as puppies and really good ones started as young dogs. And vice versa.


 
I wish your claim of DOD and LE dogs was right, but I've seen a wide diversity in both as to caliber of scent detection dog. I have no experience in apprehension, so I won't make any claims. I have the utmost respect for handlers working DOD dogs as it's their job and they are stuck with what they are assigned. Off-the-wall ball drive is always a major criteria for those dogs. I choose my puppies that chase and retrieve a puppy tennis ball at 5-6 weeks of age, but if they don't obsess on the decomp, bones, and teeth then I can't use them. 
I trained with my local team Sunday and had to use my working dog to demonstrate a scent problem. I pulled him out of the truck as a downpour started. He and I worked through a downpour with thunder and lightning all around. He was oblivious to this as there was scent in the air.

I talk with every L.E. K9 handler and miilitary dog handler/trainer I come into contact. It's always an education. I know a DOD dog locator and respect her opinions as well.

I'll stick with the way I pick dogs and wish you luck on the ball-crazy teenager you start with next.

Jim


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## Jim Delbridge

Nancy Jocoy said:


> To me the biggest difference is prolonged endurance is required.
> 
> More on that later......I think it varies depending on the type of SAR work they do...SOME cadaver work is not so physically taxing but very tedious. I think you can work an older experienced dog on a shallow grave search in a small area but may not want him covering large acreage anymore looking for a body...some of the old dogs I have seen are great at detail work...one of our best water dogs was older.......
> 
> Jim? what is your take for cadaver disciplines. Many of searches now I would say fairly high because the dog is covering 30-40 acres and have to traverse steep terrain and jump over deadfall etc. and heat tolerance is important etc. I frequenty cast him down bridge embankments and he has to push through kudzu which requires some power.
> 
> Live find dogs I would say more physicality - what say the others - about 80 acres in 4 hours depending on terrain? Sound about right? Disaster dogs even more so with the stress and rubble.
> I think one thing that is very different for SAR dogs is maybe training 30 minutes or so a day (us) and then some long time spent on weekends and during searches. Unlike working LE dogs working every day.


----
HRD covers a wide range. My working dog slows way down if we're working scattered skeletal. When I'm asked to search I quote time to search this way:
Scattered skeletal will take 5 acres per hour or longer depending on the terrain and/or vegetation.
Clandestine buried depends on when buried from 2 acres per hour to less than an acre per hour if we're looking for decades old single grave. A cemetery can be worked faster because the handler and the dog get into a rhythm with the rows and columns of graves in a typical indo-hur cemetery (christian/jewish/contemporary muslim). Native american cemeteries or burial grounds really depend on the nation's cultures (and this can vary widely by area and clans).
That being said, I've had to work large nasty areas for L.E. where they say do the best I can and give us a percentage covered when you're done. Murphy and I did a 40-acre search in very steep terrain with boulders and streams the norm as we avoided the ice. We were given 4 hours to work it. I told them I felt 20 percent confident for scattered remains for the area and given lots of scavenger activity.

I'm intentionally training my puppy at a slower pace as I'm going to use him as my faster dog to cover more area for decomp to scattered skeletal. Murphy is very good at historical and this slows him down, so he's my go-to dog to find the teeth/bone shards/ little bones left behind after the scavengers have had a go. My hope is they'll compliment each other and that will allow me to serve my community better.

I've seen a lot of fast HRD dogs that move very much like area search dogs and will end up missing the more subtle scents at times. I'd rather work methodically to be able to drive home at the end of the search knowing the area was covered well.

I do know some handlers that like HRD because they feel it's less taxing on them and their dogs. That's fine as long as they know their limitations such that they don't accept searches their dog and/or they shouldn't be doing. Unfortunately, most of the civilian SAR dog handlers want to search so badly that they don't always apply common sense to say when they aren't the right fit for the search.

Many HRD searches for a criminal investigation can be a series of small area searches of a wide variety where L.E. may take you and your dog to multiple areas, one right after the other such as houses, ponds, dense woods, impromptu dumps, etc. People dump their victims often times in places they hope no one else will ever want to go. This is where the HRD dog handler and dog must be willing to go. Odd as it sounds, my experiences on HRD searches prepared me well to be a Death Investigator because I get sent into a lot of places my L.E. or F.D. just don't want to go. 



I probably screwed up the quote. I'm on my dial-pulse hook up now. My end goal is that eachof my dogs can work 4-hour shifts routinely. There have been times when that's been exceeded. I build up to this with long walks/hikes with a problem set at the end.


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## Alice Bezemer

Sandra King said:


> ... do you keep it or do you re-home the dog.
> 
> I possibly have to face that one of my dogs may wash out health-wise. I have an appointment for his health evaluation so nothing is for certain. I bought him specifically for the purpose of SAR but he got injured and I am not sure how bad it really is and if he will actually come around or if I have to take him out completely.
> 
> I am not sure if I should simply keep him and get a fourth dog or, if it comes down to it, re-home him since_* I swore myself to never have four dogs at the same time again*_.
> 
> It would be a shame. He's got everything a good search dog is supposed to have and I really hope I don't have to make that decision, especially since I fell in love with him already.
> 
> 
> How do you feel about decisions like that? Have you had to make a decision? Would you re-home one of your dogs because of SAR?
> I know it happens all the time with departments and professionals but I am a volunteer, not a professional. So how about you?


kinda answered ytour own question there already didnt you  why change your mind now ?

I have no problems with decisions like this at all...work or move out is how it works here...if the dog cant work for regardless whatever reason I will find him a new home to live out his life...I will however not start collecting dogs because they are so sweet and I love them so much....Dont get me wrong here, I love all my dogs but they are here for a purpose...if they cant fullfill that purpose is it smart to keep them ? can I pay the bills that come allong with keeping yet another non working dog ? do I have the room for that dog, can I split my attention between all those dogs and this one since I now want to keep him even tho he is totaly and utterly useless ? Would that be fair to the dog ? When perhaps it would go to a nice home and have a good life somewhere else and I can focus on my workingdogs. All things to consider here.....the problem is making the distinction between a workingdog and a pet at some point...its a workingdog...does it work ? did you intend to keep him as a pet to begin with ? its the state of mind that you buy a dog with. If I buy a dog and its a workingdog and it doesnt perform its days are numbered...perform of get out! I dont let myself get attached to them in a pet sort of manner or soon the house would be overrun with useless dogs that cost a lot of many to feed and keep healthy....


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## Nancy Jocoy

Jim Delbridge said:


> ----
> I do know some handlers that like HRD because they feel it's less taxing on them and their dogs. That's fine as long as they know their limitations such that they don't accept searches their dog and/or they shouldn't be doing. Unfortunately, most of the civilian SAR dog handlers want to search so badly that they don't always apply common sense to say when they aren't the right fit for the search..


Knowing your limitations both physically and training wise is very important. Until we got specialized training in certain areas, and developed some level of proficiency we would bring in folks from other teams to do certain kinds of problems. Now we get called in by other teams for different types of problems. Shallow graves is one of those areas we have been working on building for the past year.

Physically, absolutely. I have repeatedly stated I won't go on a live search in rugged terrain. No value in having two victims or slowing down a canine team and I am jam up on mapping so that is what I do. Your searching should not exceed your training. We have four HRD single purpose dog handlers on the team - 2 are younger and more fit and agile 2 are older and less so.

At this point, we have learned to turn down some of the needle in a haystack speculative searches. 

As to the dog, even a boat, which is about the least taxing, dog needs a certain amount of agility. They are climbing all over the boat, hanging off the edge, and need to recover if you hit a snag or fall in. You can't restrain them from working and sometimes you hold your breath as they want to get that nose to the water and you cannot always use the 'right' boat. The bridge embankements have been another trip. They can be very steep.


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## David Frost

With us the dog's longevity is decided on two factors. 1. The ability to maintain proficiency. 2. Availability. 

As in people, age has a debilitating effect. When (irrespective of chronilogical age) the dog reaches the point it can no longer maintain the minimum requirements, it's retired. 

There comes a point of diminishing returns with a dog. When it's not reliable, because of physical ailments, it's replaced. A dog that spends more time at the vet or on "Kennel rest" than working becomes a liability rather than an asset. 

DFrost


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## Nancy Jocoy

What do you do with your retired dogs? How old is "typical", realizing it is performance based.


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## David Frost

Typically, with Labs it's around 11, GSD's. Not as much data with Mals, but it seems to be about the same as labs. Of course figuring averages means some work longer, some not as long. 

Handlers are permitted to adopt the dog after it's service life. I've never had a handler that didn't adopt, so we've never had to find an "adoptive" home. 

DFrost


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## Molly Graf

I agree with sandra on the killing puppies by hitting them against the wall - illegal and even if it weren't - barbarac. I would never do it, and would never buy from or recommend a breeder who did this sort of "culling", unless of course it was necessary to put an animal down quickly who was suffering badly (still would take it to the vet)

anyway Sandra - how old is your dog with the injury? I read the thread but may have missed that. If he is under 2 years old it is very possible it is pano - growing pains - and he will get over it completely.

I had a dog who exibited similarly - a young adult female who was 100% sound and running around normally, then all of a sudden screamed in pain and went 3-legged, then slowly recovered but after that was not 100% sound and would "reinjure" the leg (a hind leg) every so often for the next few days. After that I took her to the vet and they thought she had injured her cruciate ligament. I agreed to knee surgery. They opened her up and called me saying there was nothing wrong with her cruciate after all. It was pano all along - sometimes you (me) have to learn the hard way - a couple weeks later she did the same thing on the other back leg, but recovered nicely from that. It was not a normal case of pano that's for sure, but that's what it was and like most dogs with pano, she got over it and is still working sound at 8 years old.

molly


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## Terrasita Cuffie

You can x-ray for pano [panosteoitis]. Generally shows up in the long bones. The couple that we had --one 6 monts and the other 15 months, that were suddenly lame. the vet x-rayed to exclude this first--that's what it was.

David:

Do you see your PSDs starting to change at all mentally after Age 8?

Terrasita


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## David Frost

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Do you see your PSDs starting to change at all mentally after Age 8?
> 
> Terrasita


Not necessarily, it's usually physical infirmities and generally hips. PSD life can be pretty hard on a dog. Explosive starts after sitting too long in a car. Hard training, hard work. Plus the general in/out of a vehicle over the years takes its' toll.

DFrost


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## Nancy Jocoy

YOu know, after seeing a teammates dog who is a year older than Grim, I broke down and bought a ramp for my truck. All that jumping has got to be hard on the shoulders.

Her dog at 9 is starting to show signs. I figure my next dog will just have to start off with one. 

Fortunately we don't have to face that stress LE dogs do and they can warm up and loosen up before working.


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## milder batmusen

Sandra King said:


> search&rescue


thanks;-)


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