# the problem with dogs are not the dogs



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

sometimes i get a little pissed when i hear the word "pet dog" being thrown around here.

imnsho, there is nothing wrong with getting a mal or a DS or a GSD or any breed to live the life of a PET.

**it is not the dog or breed, it is the OWNER who screws up a dog, not the dog who screws up the owner**

i also feel the vast majority of all dog breeds bought spend the majority of their life as a PET. it's a reality. get over it and accept it

the problem is not the dog, it's :
- people who know nothing about what the dog needs
- people who are too damn lazy to give the dog the proper exercise and discipline and common dog sense leadership
- people who buy dogs based on looks alone, regardless of size or temperament
- and people who breed dogs to sell and make a few bucks

*** and i feel there are many people who fit the above categories and still go out and buy a dog for "personal protection"

- to me it makes no difference whether it is a teacup pomeranian or a giant breed

- just a damn shame there are no laws which prevent certain people from buying or breeding a dog. 
- drivers licenses aren't a cure all, but they do help quite a bit and thankfully, there are a few ways they can be revoked. 

- the libertarians will hate me for even mentioning anything that approaches a "dog license", but i'm saying it anyway 
... and i realize it will never happen //lol//

anyone else feel the same ?


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Well... I'm libertarian... so about that license part lol...

I agree, I don't think theres anything wrong with pet dogs... mine are pets. They sleep in the house, on my bed actually. 

My issue is with pet breeding. I am of the belief a quality working dog should be equally capable of filling the role of a pet... I dislike the breeding of dogs just good enough to be an ok pet. 

It annoys me when people say "I want a GSD/Mal but not a high drive one like that, just a lower energy pet". My response is typically "you don't really want of those. There are plenty of other breeds better suited for you" and the reality is when people demand that and the "market" changes to fill that need it ultimately effects the breed gene pool as a whole.


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

rick smith said:


> sometimes i get a little pissed when i hear the word "pet dog" being thrown around here.
> 
> imnsho, there is nothing wrong with getting a mal or a DS or a GSD or any breed to live the life of a PET.
> 
> ...


No


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

lol Hunter... i knew that comment would get some flack 

btw, if you categorized my political beliefs, i would probably fall into the libertarian camp, unless your definition of a libertarian is that all laws are useless 

but obviously i wanted the thread to be pet dog related

i realize that most members here have limited exposure to the vast majority of "other" pet breeds, and there's nothing wrong with that. my point is that the big three are a very small percentage and that owners and breeders are the reason

i've had over a dozen owners of "working breeds" who got their dog for home protection and NONE were raising it or training it properly and had NO clue why and how they were screwing up their dog

but i do think the long term problem lies mostly with the breeders (in the "macro" sense) for how most breeds deteriorate with popularity


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

When I taught basic OB classes I always started off with "The problem with these dogs is not the dog. It's the turd stuck to the other end of the leash". 
That got rid of the sensitive ones real fast. :twisted: 

When I use the term "pet dogs" it's in a negative against the furbaby folks that act like their dogs are their children. Spoiled, untrained with no desire to do anything but "love" them. "Training might make them not like me anymore". ](*,)
In reality my dogs are also my pets. I just never look at them as kids, mine or anyone elses.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

I find that trainers from Europe have a hard time adjusting to American culture. If they don't grasp the concept of customer service...they will probably not make it as a professional dog trainer in the USA. I've seen this first hand. I've also worked with trainers that were good with clients but used E collars way too often....the dogs get superstitious of the environment. I would say there are alot of bad dog trainers and bad students...and some dogs that are a pain in the ass for anyone to work.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

when i hear the word furbaby mentioned i think a lot of people might get the image of a small dog or a companion breed, but hardly ever a "working" dog 

so i would add this : besides the small fry, i've worked personally with "furbaby owners" who had these breeds :
..... multiple gsd's, a dane, a pyrenees, 2 chessy retrievers and a rott ](*,)


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

There are pets, and there are pets. I consider my dogs pets, they spend more time just living with me, hanging out, going hiking, playing fetch, etc than they do training/working. But I don't consider them "pet dogs" the way I think many people on the forum, including myself, use the term. And I have a couple right now, affectionately called "the heathens", that are living proof of what can happen when a working caliber dog is living a "pet dog" life. Due to "life", they are behind in terms of level of training compared to other dogs I have raised, and it definitely shows in their behavior.

A "pet dog" IMO is a dog who can excel in the average "pet home" in the US. Which is a home that wants a dog more as a piece of furniture than an active companion. Their view of the ideal pet is a dog that calmly waits around the house all day while they are at work, or in the yard, then when they come home is happy with a pat on the head and maybe a walk around the block to potty. Then will go back home and stretch out for another nap. The dog might go to the park on the weekend, or their kids soccer match, where it is expected to hang out calmly and not try to chase the soccer ball, the kids running around, etc. The dog may sleep on someone's bed at night, and hang out with the family in the evenings, but not much time is spent on things like real exercise, training, etc. It's a happy life, but happy for a calmer, laid back, more lazy type of dog.

There is nothing with this lifestyle, and I agree with Christopher you can find members of the working breeds who are compatible, the lower drive/less reactive ones. And they do exist, not every breeding turns out nothing but high octane dogs. But producing them shouldn't be the focal point a breeding program. And putting a dog with good working drives into this environment is not a recipe for success, the dog will be lacking both the mental and physical stimulation it needs to be happy.


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## Kristin Muntz (Jul 3, 2012)

Hunter Allred said:


> It annoys me when people say "I want a GSD/Mal but not a high drive one like that, just a lower energy pet". My response is typically "you don't really want of those. There are plenty of other breeds better suited for you" and the reality is when people demand that and the "market" changes to fill that need it ultimately effects the breed gene pool as a whole.


Plenty of rescues fit that bill, if they want a dog that has a 'lower' drive. They still need training, etc of course but thanks to the poor breeding going on already, there's a plethora of those breeds that aren't suited for work. Good for active 'pet' homes. 

I don't think that any breed does or will exist that isn't eventually shaped by public demand - for good or ill. Even if you try to get the animal bad PR, you'll end up with a market for it. Best I've come up with yet - don't get a breed like mine, you'll never sleep in again. For some reason that seems to scare people more than the threat of being turned into a chew toy


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

I think a pet dog is one for which there are no expectations. My dog has a job beyond sport, if she could not fulfill it she would not be here.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> There are pets, and there are pets. I consider my dogs pets, they spend more time just living with me, hanging out, going hiking, playing fetch, etc than they do training/working. But I don't consider them "pet dogs" the way I think many people on the forum, including myself, use the term. And I have a couple right now, affectionately called "the heathens", that are living proof of what can happen when a working caliber dog is living a "pet dog" life. Due to "life", they are behind in terms of level of training compared to other dogs I have raised, and it definitely shows in their behavior.
> 
> A "pet dog" IMO is a dog who can excel in the average "pet home" in the US. Which is a home that wants a dog more as a piece of furniture than an active companion. Their view of the ideal pet is a dog that calmly waits around the house all day while they are at work, or in the yard, then when they come home is happy with a pat on the head and maybe a walk around the block to potty. Then will go back home and stretch out for another nap. The dog might go to the park on the weekend, or their kids soccer match, where it is expected to hang out calmly and not try to chase the soccer ball, the kids running around, etc. The dog may sleep on someone's bed at night, and hang out with the family in the evenings, but not much time is spent on things like real exercise, training, etc. It's a happy life, but happy for a calmer, laid back, more lazy type of dog.
> 
> There is nothing with this lifestyle, and I agree with Christopher you can find members of the working breeds who are compatible, the lower drive/less reactive ones. And they do exist, not every breeding turns out nothing but high octane dogs. But producing them shouldn't be the focal point a breeding program. And putting a dog with good working drives into this environment is not a recipe for success, the dog will be lacking both the mental and physical stimulation it needs to be happy.


This ^^


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## Ted Summers (May 14, 2012)

I agree with Kadi... my dogs live inside and 'work' almost everyday. They are 'pets' but are also 'working dogs' in the sense that I do more OB with them everyday than most 'pet' dog get in a lifetime. Putting a working dog with those drives can be a recipe for disaster and ultimately the dog usually pays the price.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

trying to keep this on track....
there are many ways to define pets
my post was not intended to go that way and get into a definition war of what defines a pet

my title was written the way it was for a reason
- that it is the owner not the DOG
- and that it is not breed specific, or size specific

i have personally worked with an owner who adopted a MWD .... who became nothing but a PET, and it was a MAL (a dutch bred mal), and i would go out on a limb and say he probably had as much "drive" as any dog any of the working dog owners on this forum might have owned

- imo it is still the person not the dog that will determine if it works out or not, regardless of the "drives" it might bring into the house, backyard or kennel or wherever

too many wrong owners, not too many wrong dogs 
educate the owner and the dog does just fine
whether you want to hang a pet label on it or not
...and that one shouldn't use the word "pet" in a derogatory manner as if it was "less" than any other word one uses to describe the dog they own

hope that is clearer


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I think the ultra high drive dogs of today are more of a 'bred for sport" thing then the real dogs of old.
In the 50s we had a GDSxCollie (common in that era) that had two live bites. One was an attempt to steal bikes out of our garage and the other was an actual break in at the house. Both times were serious bites that required many stitches. 
This was also a time when a good dog was expected to do just that and still be a family "pet". 
In spite of not being a super high drive dog she was very easy to train. Actually the first dog I ever trained. I did it with a book and the help from an old man across the street that had a badass, hunting English Pointer.


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## Tim Lynam (Jun 12, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> I think the ultra high drive dogs of today are more of a 'bred for sport" thing then the real dogs of old.
> In the 50s we had a GDSxCollie (common in that era) that had two live bites. One was an attempt to steal bikes out of our garage and the other was an actual break in at the house. *Both times were serious bites that required many stitches. *
> *This was also a time when a good dog was expected to do just that and still be a family "pet". *
> In spite of not being a super high drive dog she was very easy to train. Actually the first dog I ever trained. I did it with a book and the help from an old man across the street that had a badass, hunting English Pointer.


I agree Bob. I remember those times... It seems the "Common Sense" has been bred right out of many of todays breeds.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

I too would like to get back to a time when it was normal for your dog to try to kill the local bike thief and a time when you could send a terrier down a hole to destroy a badger.


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## Mark Herzog (Aug 22, 2013)

Rick... the dog is a reflection of the owner. The more time the dog spends with the owner the more the dog takes on that personality.

If the owner is weak the dog will become weak... if the owner is confused the dog becomes confused... etc.

As society has changed over the past 100 years so too have our dogs. One hundred years ago most dogs "worked" because most people couldn't afford to feed a dog that didn't perform some useful function. So they herded, did rodent control, helped hunt, etc... they performed a useful purpose for their owners. Today most urban dwellers don't have any need for a working dog... they want companions and that has become the "job" for their dog. To me those are pets. I don't mean it in a bad way, just my definition if you will.

There is no reason a working dog can't also be a companion but when that is its' only purpose then it's no longer a working dog in my opinion.

As you say, even the best working dog will be "ruined" by a horrible handler. Spend enough time together and the dog will begin to mirror the handler... hesitation, uncertainty, confusion, focus (or lack of), will all begin to creep in as the dog and handler work together.

Society today is all about "socializing", political correctness and concern for liabilities. We as humans reproduce and train for the weakest and slowest... Our schools promote participation rather than winning... our classes grade on "curves". We lower standards (both in schools and in the workplace) so that the weak can participate and join in. It's no longer about striving and achieving and pushing the boundaries... it's about doing "what's right" and "what's fair" and "equality". Our dogs have become a reflection of our own weakness and failures.

Rick... "the problem with dogs are not the dogs" is 100% correct... the problem with today's dogs is that so many owners are themselves badly flawed... as people... and as dog handlers. This can't help but be reflected in their dog who only mirrors the owner. You can't blame the mirror for the image it is reflecting.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Ben Thompson said:


> I too would like to get back to a time when it was normal for your dog to try to kill the local bike thief and a time when you could send a terrier down a hole to destroy a badger.




The bike thief damn near got his calf muscle torn off. When my dad got to the garage the guy was hanging from the garage rafters screaming like baby. 
Whoever got in the house got a way but the carpet in mom and dads bed room had to be replaced because of all the blood and none was the dog. All she had was a lump on the head and a reeely nasty attitude about folks walking in the house after that. 
Same dog also bit me sneaking in my bed room window at 3 in the morning when I was 17. She let go almost as soon as she grabbed b ut she left bruises. I suspect she got a good sniff of who it was right away. 
Never did tell dad about that one. :twisted::wink:

I've dug out many a terrier from the ground. 
Bad knees and a bad back made me give up the shovel when I was 60. That was almost ten yrs ago but I still know a LOT of working earthdogs. 

Badgers, no! That takes a very special dog that know how to bay the quarry and stay out of a fight. 
I've seen badgers just keep on digging with a dog hanging on their ass. The loose hide keeps the badger from getting hurt but he'll dig in and suffocate the dog in the ground. NOT for me! 
The badgers in Europe, while dangerous , aren't the nasty, wicked, evil assed loners we have here.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> There are pets, and there are pets. I consider my dogs pets, they spend more time just living with me, hanging out, going hiking, playing fetch, etc than they do training/working. But I don't consider them "pet dogs" the way I think many people on the forum, including myself, use the term. And I have a couple right now, affectionately called "the heathens", that are living proof of what can happen when a working caliber dog is living a "pet dog" life. Due to "life", they are behind in terms of level of training compared to other dogs I have raised, and it definitely shows in their behavior.
> 
> A "pet dog" IMO is a dog who can excel in the average "pet home" in the US. Which is a home that wants a dog more as a piece of furniture than an active companion. Their view of the ideal pet is a dog that calmly waits around the house all day while they are at work, or in the yard, then when they come home is happy with a pat on the head and maybe a walk around the block to potty. Then will go back home and stretch out for another nap. The dog might go to the park on the weekend, or their kids soccer match, where it is expected to hang out calmly and not try to chase the soccer ball, the kids running around, etc. The dog may sleep on someone's bed at night, and hang out with the family in the evenings, but not much time is spent on things like real exercise, training, etc. It's a happy life, but happy for a calmer, laid back, more lazy type of dog.
> 
> There is nothing with this lifestyle, and I agree with Christopher you can find members of the working breeds who are compatible, the lower drive/less reactive ones. And they do exist, not every breeding turns out nothing but high octane dogs. But producing them shouldn't be the focal point a breeding program. And putting a dog with good working drives into this environment is not a recipe for success, the dog will be lacking both the mental and physical stimulation it needs to be happy.


Exactly.

The only thing I would add has to do with the term "furbaby". This term is used by people who think dogs are just like human babies with fur, they use it as a term of endearment, that's how they treat them, and that's why they call them "furbabies". I've never heard that the term is limited to small dogs, and I do have a big problem with that type of owner, but that's one of the reasons I come here, rather than go to a "pet" board, it's not my thing, and I don't want to deal with them.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Mark Herzog said:


> You can't blame the mirror for the image it is reflecting.


Agreed. The pack works. The pack sleeps. The pack eats. The pack is kicking back and chilling the he** out. There is the tendency towards the super sport dog in the so called working community with the hype of "extreme." But what is drive for many is really OCD object fixation and hyper-reactive nervous systems. You don't hear about selection for other qualities such as trainability, self control, etc. No matter where you look, suddenly dogs are incredibly needy. They need all this exercise, stimulation, potty pads, diapers, daycare, treadmills, etc. Time and money. I just hope people are putting that much into their children. I'm all for training, work, and hobbies but it seems money and marketing has run amok in the pet world and everyone is jumping on the pet needs band wagon. Rick's talking about a dog license. Really? You can give birth and bring human children into the world. I wanna see that concern for them. As much as I love them and want the best for them, at the end of the day, its a dog. Keep it in perspective.

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Mark Herzog said:


> You can't blame the mirror for the image it is reflecting.


Agreed. The pack works. The pack sleeps. The pack eats. The pack is kicking back and chilling the he** out. There is the tendency towards the super sport dog in the so called working community with the hype of "extreme." But what is drive for many is really OCD object fixation and hyper-reactive nervous systems. You don't hear about selection for other qualities such as trainability, self control, work ethic, etc. No matter where you look, suddenly dogs are incredibly needy. They need all this exercise, stimulation, potty pads, diapers, daycare, treadmills, etc. Time and money. I just hope people are putting that much into their children. I'm all for training, work, and hobbies but it seems money and marketing has run amok in the pet world and everyone is jumping on the pet needs band wagon. Rick's talking about a dog license. Really? You can give birth and bring human children into the world. I wanna see that concern for them. As much as I love them and want the best for them, at the end of the day, its a dog. Keep it in perspective.

T


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

once more ...
---------------------------
my last post :
"trying to keep this on track....
there are many ways to define pets
my post was not intended to go that way and get into a definition war of what defines a pet

my title was written the way it was for a reason
- that it is the owner not the DOG
- and that it is not breed specific, or size specific

i have personally worked with an owner who adopted a MWD .... who became nothing but a PET, and it was a MAL (a dutch bred mal), and i would go out on a limb and say he probably had as much "drive" as any dog any of the working dog owners on this forum might have owned

- imo it is still the person not the dog that will determine if it works out or not, regardless of the "drives" it might bring into the house, backyard or kennel or wherever

too many wrong owners, not too many wrong dogs 
educate the owner and the dog does just fine
whether you want to hang a pet label on it or not
...and that one shouldn't use the word "pet" in a derogatory manner as if it was "less" than any other word one uses to describe the dog they own

hope that is clearer "
------------------------

.... guess it wasn't and this is getting overcooked :lol:

1. the word "pet" should not imo give a negative connotation that it is of any lesser quality than whatever you want to call your "working dog", because most dogs ARE pets
2. but if you disagree with anything i wrote in my posts about how problems are caused, by all means just paste it and say why. i will add, that IME it is easier to teach a high drive dog to do stuff than it is to teach a hi drive dog to chill. the "on" switch vs, the "off" switch. i have my own opinions on why this happens, but in many cases i think the owner feels the dog should learn that all by itself, and when it doesn't happen they get pissed at their dog
3. last and least, i have no future plans to lobby for dog licenses //rotflmao//

wish my main thread had received as many responses. thought there were more PSD/SAR people and breeders on this forum that bought and sold them


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

rick smith said:


> 1. the word "pet" should not imo give a negative connotation that it is of any lesser quality than whatever you want to call your "working dog", because most dogs ARE pets


By definition, "pet quality" is of lesser quality. I agree that most working dogs are also companion animals, but most pets are not also performance/competition animals. This is why breeders steer people who are looking for a house pet towards the lesser quality dogs, and there's nothing wrong with that, if that's what you're looking for, but for those looking first and foremost for a performance animal, the term does indeed carry a negative connotation.



rick smith said:


> 2. i will add, that IME it is easier to teach a high drive dog to do stuff than it is to teach a hi drive dog to chill. the "on" switch vs, the "off" switch.


Absolutely, MUCH easier, and much more satisfying for the dog. There is some truth in the old adage "a tired dog is a good dog". 



rick smith said:


> i have my own opinions on why this happens, but in many cases i think the owner feels the dog should learn that all by itself, and when it doesn't happen they get pissed at their dog


Right, pet owners get frustrated because they generally don't have the time or the inclination or the tools to deal with a very high drive performance animal, it's not what they are into. As Kadi said, most pet people are looking for a more laid back dog, another reason why the lesser "pet quality" dogs are a better fit for most people looking for just a house pet.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Susan
i disagree here : "By definition, "pet quality" is of lesser quality"

-- because i don't even think it's a definition of a dog "type", and is mostly used by people who already use the term in a derogatory fashion, as opposed to "working" quality, etc 
- i was simply stating that most dogs are often mostly pets. no more no less

i also don't necessarily agree that (pet) people who are looking for a pet are always attracted to the calm, lo drive, laid back animals, ESPECIALLY if it is on the small size 
- but it goes for the bigger breeds too, since they are usually bought as small adorable furbaby puppies 
- most pet owners that i deal with simply LOVE a dog that will jump all over them, chase balls obsessively for hours, come charging back to them and lick their face off, howl like a wolf when you come home cause they have "missed" their owner so much. some even think that it's endearing when their dog has torn the place up from their "separation anxiety" 

......all of which i attribute to the fact that most all people looking solely for a family pet have absolutely NO idea what drive means unless wheels are involved, and think that any kind of biting is a bad behavior 
- should also mention that canine drives don't always jump out and hit you when you are looking at a pup. late bloomers happen all the time. then the owners are mystified because it happened "almost overnight" ](*,)

the exception might be the wannabees who want to get on the mali bandwagon for a trendy status symbol to protect their family. they might be more likely to be the types who ask for the "calmest" pup in the litter and i'd be willing to bet Kadi has seen a few of those types //lol//


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

actually the more i think about it, the more my thread was just a rant plus one comment :

1. i don't like the negatives that i feel are associated when people on here refer to "pets" or pet quality dogs, or comments like "it's just a pet", etc etc 
- i just don't see it that way at all, no matter what the owner does with it

2. the problem with "problem" dogs is 99.99% the owner and not the dog, no matter what breed of dog it is 

most people here will probably be more likely to agree with #2 

so, rant over, but i'll stick with #2 all day


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Haz Othman said:


> I think a pet dog is one for which there are no expectations. My dog has a job beyond sport, if she could not fulfill it she would not be here.



I think that a pet dog has also to live up to its owners expectations. 

It has to respect its owner, be obedient, not pull on the lead, be neutral to other dogs, not chase deer, foxes, cats, etc.

The only difference is that the owner does some sort of dog sport with the canine.

Everything else is the same as for a dog "dabbling in" or earnestly doing some kind of sports.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> The bike thief damn near got his calf muscle torn off. When my dad got to the garage the guy was hanging from the garage rafters screaming like baby.
> Whoever got in the house got a way but the carpet in mom and dads bed room had to be replaced because of all the blood and none was the dog. All she had was a lump on the head and a reeely nasty attitude about folks walking in the house after that.
> Same dog also bit me sneaking in my bed room window at 3 in the morning when I was 17. She let go almost as soon as she grabbed b ut she left bruises. I suspect she got a good sniff of who it was right away.
> Never did tell dad about that one. :twisted::wink:
> ...


 I just watched a badger dig on a online video. I don't think the really hard dogs would last too long against those. The hole they dug to ended up being 10 feet deep. That hobby will defineatly seperate the men from the boys in a hurry.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Agree! 
I've been 7-8 ft deep and 40 feet from the entrance with a number of ground hog digs but the average was about 3-4 ft and 3-5 ft from the entrance hole. 
Somewhere back in the photo files I posted pics a long while back.


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## Dustin Fritz (Apr 17, 2013)

No offense Rick, but I read a lot of your post as dick post. I mean come on...I think it is pretty obvious what connotation people on this forum bring to the word "pet". Of course most people's dogs are pets...most people on this forum are not military handlers or even police k9 handlers.....I'm not an expert by any stretch of the word but I grew up in a house with a military dog handler...pet is a relative term just like "work"is a relative term..to the guys that do this daily as a profession (life and death) what most of us do with our dogs is not work in the truest sense either. I respect your opinion as you clearly know way more than I, but damn man....come down of that high horse once in a while. My first post on this forum you sent me private messages basically telling me how worthless I am....I might be green but I'm not stupid and I've been around some pretty impressive people that have done real work with their dogs and your attitude is not impressive. 




So let's be clear...I think it is rather obvious when people on this forum use the word "pet" (as I did and of course you pointed out how wrong I was) what they mean....a dog simply not cut out for work. Just because a handler evaluates the dog as not having what it takes doesn't mean the handler is wrong or you could have made the dog more capable..sometimes it just is what it is.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

just for the "public" record ... i've NEVER written or IMPLIED anyone was worthless
- either in the open or in private
- feel free to post my PM publicly for all to judge

- but i may have written that i think it's worthless (or a waste of time) to try and help some people tho //lol//

if anyone else thinks i said they were worthless, paste what i wrote. 
**and when i refer to a PM, it is only to pass on GENERIC info that might be of interest to others and i respect the privacy of the source

but if i get under your skin, grow some more 
- last time i thought about it, everyone has an "attitude". i don't draft a post and then post it just to appear "impressive" and i am not on any kind of ego trip and i don't even post about what i do that is really enjoyable. 

- i have NEVER denied that my experience level with dogs is way under what is frequently posted here by many other members ](*,)](*,)

but i can assure you if i really was the kind of person who acted like i was on a "high horse", i have plenty of buds i hang with in the real world who would have told me that face to face 

nevertheless, i'm somewhat curious exactly how my post would fall into the "dick post" category ???
... personally i don't think you ever got my basic points, Dustin


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