# King Shepherd Working/ SAR Dog



## Guest (Apr 18, 2010)

I did a search and only came up with one thread about this breed and it didn't really address this. I was wondering if any of you have had any more recent experience with this breed and consider it to generally have the kind of drive, stamina and physical ability needed for a working career. Additionally, with a short life expectancy of 10 years that would equate to quite a short operational time span after training is all said and done. 

More specifically, do you think this breed has what it takes to do wilderness search and rescue in hot humid summers on relatively moderate mountainous terrain? 

Reason I am asking is because a newer sar team trainee just got a female King Shepherd puppy that she says will max out at 100-140 lbs. That is a lot of mass to be hauling around not to mention what this small handler will do if the dog is injured. She asked for puppy foundation advice which was the first I really heard of this new pup and I was more than happy to provide this. However, I am kind of baffled. Am I nuts or is this not such a great choice for a first sar dog? The parents are supposedly high drive and the breeder shows dogs and has produced service and SChh dogs. I am actually kind of PO'd at this team for the lack of leadership and this just ices the cake. Personally I don't care what breed someone chooses as long as it is reasonable to expect it to be able to perform its duties. An educated decision based on some experienced guidance is all I hope for. Unless I am totally off base, which is entirely possible, I feel like neither of these are the case. I feel especially bad that this new trainee was either led to believe this was a good choice or was not shown any leadership whatsoever and she is now stuck with a dog that is going to hold her back. Seems like such a waste. I would have suggested a Lab. 

Researching this breed all I am finding is a lot of show stuff with some vague references to it's working ability relating back to its herd guardian heritage. The kind of vague bs you'll find in an English Bulldog AKC breed standard. I don't know. Can anyone share some first hand experience with this breed? 

Any thoughts?


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Vin Chiu said:


> Any thoughts?


My Thoughts is that there isn't such a thing or breed as a King Shepherd. You can usually find King Shepherds advertised on Kijiji or sold by low lifes off the back of pickups at your local Home-depot. 



Vin Chiu said:


> More specifically, do you think this breed has what it takes to do wilderness search and rescue in hot humid summers on relatively moderate mountainous terrain?


Like I said IMO it isn't a breed, just a fashion statement. I think that if you do find one of these so called 'King Shepard' (is usually how they are spelt on Kijiji), You'd be hard pressed to find one to do real work. 

There is so many other better choices to do that type of work. Why bother?


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Would this be my choice of dog? No - not in a heartbeat for the reasons you mentioned.

But, we had a Shiloh come onto our team a few years ago and I thought little of the dog but it turned out to become a fine trailing dog and the handler is one of the cornerstones of our team.

This gal already has the puppy .... you hope it will either surprise everyone or she will see clearly if it is a dud and get another. Nothing says you can't have more than one dog. How many of us have dogs we washed out for one reason or another?

----

How established is the team? What kind of calls do they get? Teams evolve. Make mistakes. Hopefully learn from them. Nothing like wasting a few years of team time on a dog that needs to be washed to realize you are stealing time from the "good" dogs and handlers to train the duds.......but sometimes experience is the best teacher.


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## Guest (Apr 18, 2010)

Hi Nancy-

True enough. Yep, she just got the pup. Unfortunately, she wasn't even going to get a pup for at least a couple of years a few months ago and now this pup is it. ](*,) She has multiple problem dogs and has not had success with them. She can't really get another, although as you said, how many people got a pup despite not having the space for another? I too hope it works out for the best. 

Geoff, thanks for your take.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

She could learn on the dog like Nancy suggests but that's about as far as I'd go, that's even if it has any type of drives to work in the first place. 



Vin Chiu said:


> Reason I am asking is because a newer sar team trainee just got a female King Shepherd puppy that she says will max out at 100-140 lbs.


 This says it all for me. A GSD with those types of specs are mutants at best. She is approaching or past Rottweiler, Giant Schnauzer territory here. Wilderness SAR?? Even if the pup gets certified after a few years of training she'd be looking at a life of health problems and a shortened life. 

It will most likely just be a big drain on the teams resources. 



Vin Chiu said:


> Personally I don't care what breed someone chooses* as long as it is reasonable to expect it to be able to perform its duties*. An educated decision based on some experienced guidance is all I hope for. Unless I am totally off base, which is entirely possible, I feel like neither of these are the case. I feel especially bad that this new trainee was either led to believe this was a good choice or was not shown any leadership whatsoever and she is now stuck with a dog that is going to hold her back. Seems like such a waste. I would have suggested a Lab.


You are right Vin. Some people just don't listen to reason. Probably picked the pup by the pretty colour or by how cute it was, LOL. I'd really be pointing her elsewhere if it was my team or club. Call me an insensitive A--hole .. I wouldn't be wasting my time on it. There is to many good hunting/working line Labs, GSDs, Mals etc out there or if I wanted to be really different I'd try an off breed like a Texas Lacy over a mutant GSD.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I do think one of the things we are doing now has really helped: 

Written perormance objectives that must be met within specific timeframes. It takes a lot of the subjectivity out of it.

Just as there are low drive dogs, there are low drive handlers who only train themselves and their dogs at team trainings. So a great dog can be part of a mediocre team - it takes both to be really good. Its not just the dog.

To succeed - a handler need to be doing this several days a week and have your own cadre of victims helping you out on top of the team - - team trainings should be for evaluating, suggesting solutions to take home and work on etc.


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## Guest (Apr 19, 2010)

Geoff, you understand where I'm coming from and I'm pretty sure I'm the insensitive a-hole on the team as well... well, I know I am and people hate the truth ergo they don't like me much. :-k 

Nancy, what you suggest is exactly how I would go about doing it. I wish the training protocols were written hardcopies, clear and precise. If the dog and handler pass set evals in a specified time then its all good. Check list kind of precision, not "objective" eval. <- that is a big problem. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, ya know? 

Looks like the pup is here to stay. She actually sounds like she'd be a really nice pet for a suburban family. I hope the handler and pup succeed and that the dog never gets injured in the field. Imagine humping that dog out of the bush! I think this handler got poor to no advice from team leaders who are far too laissez-faire and made a less than good decision based on the very wrong criteria. JMHO.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Was there any testing of the litter to see if any pups had any sort of ability/qualifications or was it just "lets get a puppy and make a SAR dog out of it", or 
"mom and dad both had drive so the pups must be good" ?!


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## Guest (Apr 19, 2010)

Bob Scott said:


> Was there any testing of the litter to see if any pups had any sort of ability/qualifications or was it just "lets get a puppy and make a SAR dog out of it", or
> "mom and dad both had drive so the pups must be good" ?!


From what it sounds like, she wanted a big dog to train as a trick/ demo dog (she is a dog trainer,) and wants to make a sar dog out of it and mom and dad have drive so pups must be good.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I can only wish her good luck! :wink:


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Wow... Needing a driven, agile dog that can work many hours in less than ideal conditions and very challenging terain - and she picks the gigantic hairy behemoth??? Good luck, and I hope she will have enough sense to admit when a dog is unsuitable. I would love to see her face if the dog is ever injured and she has to pack it out of the brush...


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Anna Kasho said:


> Wow... Needing a driven, agile dog that can work many hours in less than ideal conditions and very challenging terain - and she picks the gigantic hairy behemoth??? Good luck, and I hope she will have enough sense to admit when a dog is unsuitable. I would love to see her face if the dog is ever injured and she has to pack it out of the brush...


I've unfortunately had the displeasure to be around ego maniacs who purposely choose an unsuitable breed for a particular job just to prove to the rest of the world what mad skills they have as a dog trainer. People like that generally dissapear into the woodwork rather than admit they were wrong. I would imagine you see this scenario in real world SAR groups too. I guess the thing to do is make sure she's serious then let her discover it's much more rewarding to train a dog who actually loves to work, rather than one who's specialty is being a lawn ornament.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Vin Chiu said:


> More specifically, do you think this breed has what it takes to do wilderness search and rescue in hot humid summers on relatively moderate mountainous terrain?


Hi. It's me. The broken record again....
There are certainly exceptions to every rule, and a couple of individuals of some "off" breeds that will pan out for the work. However, IMO, if somebody is serious about SAR, they will select a breed that has been proven repeatedly to do the work. If purchasing a puppy, they will purchase it from a breeder/breeding that produces dogs who are proven to do the work (or similar work). 

Any SAR team that allows members to go the route that you're describing has a whole lot more time to waste than I do, that's for sure.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Anna Kasho said:


> Wow... Needing a driven, agile dog that can work many hours in less than ideal conditions and very challenging terain - and she picks the gigantic hairy behemoth??? Good luck, and I hope she will have enough sense to admit when a dog is unsuitable. I would love to see her face if the dog is ever injured and she has to pack it out of the brush...


There is a volunteer wilderness team in my state that used to have a lot of Newfies on the team. During a training drill on a particularly hot day, one of their Newfies collapsed after climbing up a large hill. Since neither the handler nor anybody else on the team could carry the dog, they had to call the local FD to evacuate the dog off the hill.

Pretty sure they don't use Newfies anymore.


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## Guest (Apr 19, 2010)

#-o :-(  :-& :-\"


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