# New Crapshoot, I mean puppy, coming



## Nancy Jocoy

LOL Maybe this should go in the no conflict section. I feel like a total newb at THIS.

After all my adamant proclamaitons that I would only take a young adult for my next cadaver dog prospect....I am getting a PUPPY.....about 12 weeks old in a October when I get him.

Nice Czech x West German WL - I think he will be a pip. Of course, he is a puppy, and I realize the risks so....

Now the detection stuff I am fine with but raising a working puppy? What is the best advice here-

I raised Cyra (SAR) and made some mistakes (she is female dog agressive and a PITA-very stubborn-could do flashy obedience but could care less the rest of the time) and I got Grim (cadaver) as an adult and he is perfect - not flashy but reliable and a good worker. 

I can't count the pet puppies I have raised as valid experience. Most were too excited around other dogs to be good working dogs though I did have pretty good control of things like jumping and biting etc.

So what can I do to maximize my chances of bringing up this dog as well as he can be raised? I know that a lot of socialization and exposure to various environments is good after shots are done. My goals are:

-develop innate drives for detection
-dog neutrality
-people neutrailiy
-NOT chasing game or small animals
-good house manners, very basic obedience
-Not doing bitework but tug or ball reward
-Obviously we start scentwork right away

Is the Leerburg Raising a Working Puppy still the best resource or is there some other good thing I should read / view on the topic?


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## Jennifer Coulter

Congrats on the new pup. You will do fine. There are some benefits to raising your dog from a pup! Almost everyone in our avi dog profile raises dogs from pups.

I don't think you need a video, I think you know what to do. I know the feeling of wanting everything to be perfect and giving them the best shot possible. PM me any specific questions you might have. Or post them. Of course I can't help you with any of the cadaver scent work part.


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## Timothy Stacy

Good luck with the new pup Nancy, I'm sure your very excited!


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## Nancy Jocoy

I feel pretty comfortable with the scent training. I think where I have had the most problem is with winding up with proper behavior around other dogs. ....... oh my team can help too .......

Good socialization vs bad socialization. Probably too much of that puppy play time when it was fashionable......


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## rick smith

find a lot of nice dogs at a distance to gradually work the pup around and avoid the punks. they can teach more than humans that way

i always go for NON reactivity - except for the pup and you of course

you know what to do - it'll be fun with the normal gotchas and murphies thrown in


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## Bob Scott

Dog neutral/people neutral.
Other dogs and people are simply something that the dog isn't allowed to have fun with. 
Easy to have people be neutral to the pup. Finding neutral dogs may be another story. 
Your pup just has to learn that interacting with either of these "things" wont get any gratification.
A simple "Leave it" with anything you don't want the dog to interact with.


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## Nancy Jocoy

Ok, this won't be so hard. Team dogs - we don't encourage free play and those who want their dogs to play with other dogs don't do so at training. 
So they should be good for interaction. I will just control the exposure. Part of Cyra's issue was she was jumped very aggressively by a BH as an older pupy. 


My female is going to have limited access to the puppy as she is a snarky little thing and she will want to play and rough. The introduction by rotating crates until the puppy is no longer interesting to anyone has worked well for me before. [I don't seem to have any issue with my dogs in my house and have had 3 dogs off and on for many years] 

My male is very good with puppies. Very tolerant and not a dog play dog. 

So is that from the get-go? Has he learned by 12 weeks all the rough and tumble dog play he needs for his life? Honestly, the ONLY time I have seen my current male play with other dogs is a female in heat (before we found out he was sterile)

It helps this time that I also telecommute so I will be able to interact with the puppy a lot in short sessions during the day.


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## Mike Di Rago

Nancy,
Hope this helps. I started Eko by going a few times to the Ring club when he was 9-10 weeks old. The adult dogs there are pretty neutral to dogs and rather calm around pups. He was allowed to go up to them when he wanted,sniff them but not play. The fact that they were calm tended to calm him also.And this gives him a first contact with adult dogs that are not aggressive,so this way you can control what type of dogs he meets the first times. Same process with people, he could go up sniff and some would pet him but not make a fuss over them, we would walk on so contact was encouraged but not play or excitement. So, the first contacts made were in a controlled environment, as much as I could.
Good luck,and enjoy those first sleepless nights! I had forgotten about that part!
Mike


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## Nancy Jocoy

Well here we go. He is the sable (a nice bonus. I did not care about that)

http://chiodokennels.com/chiodo_kennels/Puppies.html

Czech on the top, West German with some old herding lines on the bottom.


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## susan tuck

HAHAHAHA!!! Well, don't feel like the lone ranger. I SWORE my next dog was going to be a young adult too, but it looks like I'm getting a new lil pup too, very shortly. I guess the moral of the story is never say never.

Anyway, congratulations on your new pup!!


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## Nancy Jocoy

So what the heck happened? It wasnt puppy breath for me. I just knew what she was after, and like what was there ......................

And I gotta tell you. Green dogs are getting pretty darned expensive!


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## David Frost

Nancy Jocoy said:


> So what the heck happened? It wasnt puppy breath for me. I just knew what she was after, and like what was there ......................
> 
> And I gotta tell you. Green dogs are getting pretty darned expensive!



One of the dogs I had in this class was purchased as a puppy by the deputy that handled her. When he was accepted into the class I told his Sheriff it was dependent on me accepting the dog after it was tested. She was super. Female GSD, he bought from a kennel in Georgia. Said he paid 1K for her. I gave him my puppy is a crapshoot speach, ha ha and he said, well it just goes to show sometimes people even win at craps. I believe she would also make a good patrol dog. He may be in the next patrol dog school as well. 

I'm sure you'll do everything correctly Nancy and I really hope the dog works out for you.

DFrost


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## Nancy Jocoy

I know it is not like a sporting dog where you can muddle through and become a better dog trainer by accomodating to an inferior dog. If it is not there, you cant put it there. 

At least several others on the team HAVE found good homes for dogs that are well socialized but just did not work out so I know it can be done if it doesn't.


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## susan tuck

Nancy Jocoy said:


> I know it is not like a sporting dog where you can muddle through and become a better dog trainer by accomodating to an inferior dog.


 
hahaha whatever, Nancy.


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## Jim Delbridge

All of the above is taken care of by picking a puppy with all that in it. You walk away from dogs that are not obsessed with human remains with the feet running. You test for high hunt drive and low prey drive. You do this with the breeder no where in the scent area.

I've told you this over and over. 

Select a puppy that someone else picks out for you and (sorry), but you deserve what ever comes out. A breeding of two good search dogs does not guarantee ANY of the puppies will be good HRD dogs, never has and never will. 

Jim


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## Nancy Jocoy

susan tuck said:


> hahaha whatever, Nancy.


what I meant there was dabbling in sport which is what the vast majority of folks do. I realize you need top choice for a serious competition dog......


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## Nancy Jocoy

Jim, I understand where you are coming from but I feel, no matter what testing you do, a puppy is still a gamble and I will take my best shot at it. If he is unsuitable I will place him somewhere where he is suitable.


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## Brian Anderson

Good luck with your pup!! Treat him like a dog and show him what you want him to do... if he is cut out for it he will work out great.


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## Gillian Schuler

Nancy said:

_I know it is not like a sporting dog where you can muddle through and become a better dog trainer by accomodating to an inferior dog. If it is not there, you cant put it there._

In vino veritas!!

On the other hand Nancy, when I bought my Briard (with not much ambition in working dogs), I just did things naturally with him. Tested his retrieves, his nerves in strange environment. Went into the forest, climbed over logged tree trunks, watched if he would follow me. Took him by rail into busy towns, crowded trams, dog trials. Here, I ensured that he didn't upset the trialling dogs.
And on this subject made him realise that lungeing on the lead was disrespectful to *ME.*

With the GSDs, I knew what was expected of them in IPO and tried to channel them - not as successful as with the Briard.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Jim Delbridge said:


> All of the above is taken care of by picking a puppy with all that in it. You walk away from dogs that are not obsessed with human remains with the feet running. You test for high hunt drive and low prey drive. You do this with the breeder no where in the scent area.
> 
> I've told you this over and over.
> 
> Select a puppy that someone else picks out for you and (sorry), but you deserve what ever comes out. A breeding of two good search dogs does not guarantee ANY of the puppies will be good HRD dogs, never has and never will.
> 
> Jim


I'm one that prefers puppies [after I've gone through my selection stuff] and as close to day 49 as I can get them. I don't understand the puppy is a crap shoot position. I haven't been unhappy with anything that I tested. After Jim's discussion on the SAR threads, I was wondering how Nancy selected this puppy. What distinguished him from his littermates? As for dog-to-dog stuff, I don't raise my puppies with dog interaction other than while on lead they are in the pressence of other dogs on lead. They meet the adults when they first come through the door. Its months before they go out into the yard with the adult dogs here and only with the one I've selected that I want them to emulate [like Ingrid and Thor]. While socializing, I take them places with other dogs and people and play with them and work on the baby obedience stuff--ignore dogs. They get all the people contact they are interested in. Most of mine are aloof by 6-9 months. They start out as social butterflies but eventually they could care less. If you watch my dogs in the yard, there's mutual co-existence. They don't play with one another. They aren't dog aggressive in public. They ignore the setout dog on the trial field and can work with other dogs with livestock in the pens when I've done set out at trials. Jim's characterization of low prey, high hunt is interesting for what I do. I think my better dogs have been lower prey/reactivity, good hunt, good object/toy drive. Will be fun to watch Susan's and Nancy's pups grow up for different venues.

Terrasita


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## Nancy Jocoy

I still think there is more uncertainty with a young puppy and I have a 9 year old severely dysplastic female from a litter with a ZW of 78 to prove it. [Even though she is doing remarkably and I will need to add another post about remarkable changes with increased fish oil and turmeric]

I do think the advantage with a puppy is that I can imprint him NOW and get a jump on making everything good in life associated with HR. He is 8 weeks this weekend but she is holding him for a few more weeks because of major time commitment I have to a work project that I can't get away to go get him.

So I did not personally go up and test the puppy. I know the breeder in real life, her experience in HRD well eclipses mine, she has trained police, military, and SAR dogs and is a Master Trainer for LETS. I like how she works a dog and I like her perceptions on what is needed for a cadaver dog. 

I had talked with her about this litter before it was bred -- but I was not on the hook for this particular puppy as it was a small litter of 4 and another friend and cadaver dog handler had been promised the puppy. 

But some intervening serious events in the "promosed" friend's life made her decide she really could not take the puppy and will have to wait. I know her. She did not reject the pup but really wanted him and this breeder will probably repeat the breeding after waiting out to see how the pups mature.

So I trusted the breeder's selection. She knew exactly what I was looking for. The pups have had extensive opportunities to explore and be tested (yesterday was slick floors and rubble)--When she did not have what I was looking for, even though she is growing out some other pups from a different breeding, (because this puppy had been promised to another) she bent over backwards connecting me with others who might have had what I wanted. 

So, I feel good about the choice. Time will tell. I think due diligence was done; people often let breeders select pups /dogs and given my limited experience with "puppy picking" I am fine with that. If I raise him right and he does not work out for me, I should be seeing that in short order and we can steer him to the "right" place. Honestly, a few of my teammates really have had no problems with placing dogs that were just not right for the job.


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## Nancy Jocoy

I really do appreciate the insight about the dog neutrality though. I had figured I was going to do some shuffling as I don't want him into puppy play time; of the dogs I had trouble with around other dogs that WAS the common thread! That and a poor nerve base. 

But the other problem is a friendly dog that wants to play with other dogs. Don't want that either. 

Grim (my male) is an excellent adult role model dog as are several other dogs on the team. Cyra (the dysplastic female) is no killer but she is too overloaded in prey but I know once I get him to the ignore dogs point she won't push it. 

Grim has no interest in playing with her and they co-exist in the yard. Certainly puts the burden on me to supply her play needs (since she is not working) but that is as it should be.

So with farm animals...do you think a weekly trip to a farm (after he gets his last puppy shots?) on a dragline will be good...just distract him from farm animals with a toy? I also have a deer trail in the woods behind my house and wild turkeys. I figured we can work on ignoring that too.

Make them dull and uninteresting? Grim had farm experience when young and he is oblivious to other animals.


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## Jim Delbridge

I really can't fault Nancy for her choice. After all, it's what 90% of the dog handlers out there do. It's why trainers like Lou Castle will always be needed. The attitude that if a dog doesn't work out then it can be placed suggests to me the "throw away society" mentality that is so prevalent today. I'd rather just pick well and take full advantage of that exponential learning curve from 4 to 16 weeks of age. Nancy is already losing out on most of that. America is still a free country and I totally respect her right to do it her way. She has a cadre of local experts that she can draw on after all.

good luck and good hunting,

Jim Delbridge





Nancy Jocoy said:


> I still think there is more uncertainty with a young puppy and I have a 9 year old severely dysplastic female from a litter with a ZW of 78 to prove it. [Even though she is doing remarkably and I will need to add another post about remarkable changes with increased fish oil and turmeric]
> 
> I do think the advantage with a puppy is that I can imprint him NOW and get a jump on making everything good in life associated with HR. He is 8 weeks this weekend but she is holding him for a few more weeks because of major time commitment I have to a work project that I can't get away to go get him.
> 
> So I did not personally go up and test the puppy. I know the breeder in real life, her experience in HRD well eclipses mine, she has trained police, military, and SAR dogs and is a Master Trainer for LETS. I like how she works a dog and I like her perceptions on what is needed for a cadaver dog.
> 
> I had talked with her about this litter before it was bred -- but I was not on the hook for this particular puppy as it was a small litter of 4 and another friend and cadaver dog handler had been promised the puppy.
> 
> But some intervening serious events in the "promosed" friend's life made her decide she really could not take the puppy and will have to wait. I know her. She did not reject the pup but really wanted him and this breeder will probably repeat the breeding after waiting out to see how the pups mature.
> 
> So I trusted the breeder's selection. She knew exactly what I was looking for. The pups have had extensive opportunities to explore and be tested (yesterday was slick floors and rubble)--When she did not have what I was looking for, even though she is growing out some other pups from a different breeding, (because this puppy had been promised to another) she bent over backwards connecting me with others who might have had what I wanted.
> 
> So, I feel good about the choice. Time will tell. I think due diligence was done; people often let breeders select pups /dogs and given my limited experience with "puppy picking" I am fine with that. If I raise him right and he does not work out for me, I should be seeing that in short order and we can steer him to the "right" place. Honestly, a few of my teammates really have had no problems with placing dogs that were just not right for the job.


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## Lorrie McCarthy

Good luck Nancy! Having a breeder that you can trust who knows what you are looking for is really a big piece of the puzzle, for me anyway.

I love starting puppies, but it can be a love/hate thing sometimes. I'm sure you'll know what to do and will be able to channel him into the right direction for your purpose.

I've also thought that my next dog would be older. I've had a couple of good older puppies/young dogs I bought, but puppies are my tradition for better or worse... probably because I'm such a control freak. haha

And like you said, worst case, you can place him. He'll surely have a good foundation.


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## Nancy Jocoy

Well, Jim, I think you have a lot of interesting insights on cadaver work, particularly archaelogical stuff........and a lot of what you says rings true...but I also think there are valid (and different) insights from others of different ilk and think the picture is somewhere within many different perspectives. 

Honestly, I think the majority of working detection dogs are selected as young adults, not puppies with perhaps more SAR folks picking puppies. As I realized a young adult was going to run anwhere from $5000-$8000 with still no guarantees I figured a puppy was worth the risk, particularly if it was what I wanted. 

If you think it is "disposable" mentality to find a more suitable home for a pup if it does not work, so be it. I have high hopes the pup will be awesome. I still have my almost 9 year old dysplastic female because I knew she would be hard to place and I have done a remarkable job at keeping her fit and happy. Not disposable.

------------------

Oh FWIW if I were looking for a lab I would do as David does or grab one trained by Maranatha Farms. I know a few who have their dogs for FEMA and have been really pleased...they even had some GSDs and are exploring that....[they also train for HRD] ..... Well not doing it now but it is very interested. Heard very good things.


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## Megan Bays

Nancy shoot me an email when you figure out when you're heading up this way: [email protected]ketmail.com .

We will work out the details of meeting up then!


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## Bob Scott

Nancy Jocoy said:


> I really do appreciate the insight about the dog neutrality though. I had figured I was going to do some shuffling as I don't want him into puppy play time; of the dogs I had trouble with around other dogs that WAS the common thread! That and a poor nerve base.
> 
> But the other problem is a friendly dog that wants to play with other dogs. Don't want that either.
> 
> Grim (my male) is an excellent adult role model dog as are several other dogs on the team. Cyra (the dysplastic female) is no killer but she is too overloaded in prey but I know once I get him to the ignore dogs point she won't push it.
> 
> Grim has no interest in playing with her and they co-exist in the yard. Certainly puts the burden on me to supply her play needs (since she is not working) but that is as it should be.
> 
> So with farm animals...do you think a weekly trip to a farm (after he gets his last puppy shots?) on a dragline will be good...just distract him from farm animals with a toy? I also have a deer trail in the woods behind my house and wild turkeys. I figured we can work on ignoring that too.
> 
> Make them dull and uninteresting? Grim had farm experience when young and he is oblivious to other animals.



My two intact males are together 24/7. They have no interest in playing together although Trooper will occasionally pester Thunder if he's (Thunder) playing with a stick. Thunder gives a little growl and sends him off. End of story!
Both my GSDs came at a time I had other adult dogs. They were kept in the house for 7-8 months with very little unsupervised time with the other dogs. By the time Trooper went out in the yard it was certain that "I" was the center of the world to him. Did the same with Thunder as a pup. 
Today neither pay any attention to other dogs. That includes when I have them in the front yard when I'm training or just kickin around. We have a gazillion dog walkers here and they could give a crap about anything coming down the street. That includes anything that is lunging and barking at them. 
When I walk them in the park (NO dog parks) they are on lead and still ignore any pia barking, lunging dog on the narrow paths. The "Leave it" is something they take seriously.
I have great control with them on critters also. Even though the two of them have snatched the occasional bird off the feeder and both got a squirrel last winter, they still know "leave it" means don't even bother to look. It's a no option command!


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## Nancy Jocoy

All this was brought home to me this weekend at a public service event in which our team participated. This discussion gave me something to look for and zone in on {I was considering which adults I might introduce my puppy to..just introduce, not run with and play}

There were basically two kinds of social behavior in the dogs. Those who wanted to meet and greet and play and those who really just wanted their ball and were indifferent to other dogs or people. The ones who were social were allowed to run with nice adults as young puppies. I have seen both work and, all things being equal, think the completely neutral dogs have the edge.


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## Nancy Jocoy

This is the mating test. 

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/para.utkoma?fadir=728359&modir=542967

Now Ares Benax (grandfather) has not titles but is a working patrol dog.

Czech on top, West German on bottom . My goals for puppy are cadaver work which is, yes, detection but requires a lot of independant searching from the dog for long periods without a lot of direction (other than directional coverage). I was also looking for a biddable dog not a smart ass. One in litter was the latter, the puppy seems to be heading more in the former direction (biddable)


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## Peter Cavallaro

Nancy u write like u are having a crisis of confidence WTF, skip the vids and all the deep thinking stuff and get to it, yr pup's a waitin for ya.

PS on your training plan please add - go for pointless walks with pup through the forest occasionally - enjoy.


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## Nancy Jocoy

No actually not....I have gained some insights on raising a working puppy to be dog/animal neutral because too many pet people want a "social" GSD that likes to play.

No issues or angst about getting the pup. Just posted the pedigree based on the Fero thread.


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## Gillian Schuler

Nancy

I've seen not only Fero but Umsa Bungalow (one of the first names I heard of whe I started training with GSD people). She produced the Körbelbach GSDs, among others. Unfortunately, I don't know the Czech lines.

Gleisdreieck also figures, a DDR breeding. see Lump Gleisdreick

I cannot place my faith in a dog but in the breeders of such dogs. The breeders of the above dogs were breeding robust, healthy dogs and produced good working dogs.

Somewhere along the line the excellent attributes can get diluted, must not, however.

Your breeder seems to have a healthy insight.
I reckon you have enough experience to select a good breeder and will get a healthy, robust pup. The rest is up to you.


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## Chris Jones II

Nancy Jocoy said:


> No actually not....I have gained some insights on raising a working puppy to be dog/animal neutral because too many pet people want a "social" GSD that likes to play.
> 
> No issues or angst about getting the pup. Just posted the pedigree based on the Fero thread.


as long as that insight includes something on socialability being largely genetic. Odds are in your favor of getting a puppy that is either highly social or somewhere in the middle. unsocial is recessive AFAIK. And environment, socialization has a lot to do with whether your social or average social puppy really end up social or average social. If you get an unsocial pup that's what you get, you will *never*, no matter what you do, be able to train or socialize him into a social dog. Best case scenario with ridiculous 100% correct work is you will have a somewhat sort of social dog but it will be obvious that it is the training coming through and the dog will always flip flop to his natural reaction under stress. You want to be sure about it then you have to do some serious looking into the peds and contacting the people who bred those dogs.


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## Nancy Jocoy

We got him yesterday and I put a picture in the photogallery. He is full of himself. Very bold, friendly - came into my house like he owned it (slick wood floors, ceramic tile) and proceeded to explore the entire house including my mother's dark bedroom and the laundry room. Into everything. Her is particularly fond of the spring loaded doorstop. Very engaged and is retrieving balls already. Good tugger. Grabbing everything. 

Loves the cadaver odor and hunts using his nose when toy goes out of sight. Trying to eat everything though (sticks, acorns, etc) .... Think I am going to have to get a real clean house. Worse than a baby.

Grim has already been out with him and is perfect.
I already knew that about Grim though - Cyra is the one who will want to eat him for awhile, then want to play hard with him - neither of which is in the gamplans.

After a few sniffs Grim pretty much just ignored him - Cyra maybe a few weeks out before they meeting face to face. Right now they are meeting through the crate and she is snarky if he goes to her crate but she is meeting him in his crate just fine. My last experience when we got Grim is that once she realizes he is here to stay and is used to him she won't snark at him. Either way, he is not spending a lot of time with them other than meet and greets.


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## Joby Becker

Nancy Jocoy said:


> We got him yesterday and I put a picture in the photogallery. He is full of himself. Very bold, friendly - came into my house like he owned it (slick wood floors, ceramic tile) and proceeded to explore the entire house including my mother's dark bedroom and the laundry room. Into everything. Her is particularly fond of the spring loaded doorstop. Very engaged and is retrieving balls already. Good tugger. Grabbing everything.
> 
> Loves the cadaver odor and hunts using his nose when toy goes out of sight. Trying to eat everything though (sticks, acorns, etc) .... Think I am going to have to get a real clean house. Worse than a baby.
> 
> Grim has already been out with him and is perfect.
> I already knew that about Grim though - Cyra is the one who will want to eat him for awhile, then want to play hard with him - neither of which is in the gamplans.
> 
> After a few sniffs Grim pretty much just ignored him - Cyra maybe a few weeks out before they meeting face to face. Right now they are meeting through the crate and she is snarky if he goes to her crate but she is meeting him in his crate just fine. My last experience when we got Grim is that once she realizes he is here to stay and is used to him she won't snark at him. Either way, he is not spending a lot of time with them other than meet and greets.


good luck with the new pup  video please...


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## Bob Scott

Sounds like a winner!
Of course you know how I feel about the "retrieving balls already" with a new puppy. :grin: :wink:


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## Nancy Jocoy

Oh, not really Bob...he seems to be a natural at ball
.... everyone I know says its a good thing that he already brings it back for more. 
I know some folks are not into the two ball game. I don't plan on using it in lieu of other excercise though. 

He is definitely very engaging with eye contact and will look me in the eye when we are playing tug (he likes that a lot too so I need to be reading up on the BEST way to play tug with a wee puppy...even though we are not doing bitework, tug being a great reward--but he is already hanging onto and throwing his back into tugging and giving little grunts)

The little guy is definitely the energizer bunny and seems pretty smart.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Oh, not really Bob...he seems to be a natural at ball
> .... everyone I know says its a good thing that he already brings it back for more.
> I know some folks are not into the two ball game. I don't plan on using it in lieu of other excercise though.
> 
> He is definitely very engaging with eye contact and will look me in the eye when we are playing tug (he likes that a lot too so I need to be reading up on the BEST way to play tug with a wee puppy...even though we are not doing bitework, tug being a great reward--but he is already hanging onto and throwing his back into tugging and giving little grunts)
> 
> The little guy is definitely the energizer bunny and seems pretty smart.





Sounds like a really neat little puppy. Looking forward to hearing more about him.

T


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## Bob Scott

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Oh, not really Bob...he seems to be a natural at ball
> .... everyone I know says its a good thing that he already brings it back for more.
> I know some folks are not into the two ball game. I don't plan on using it in lieu of other excercise though.
> 
> He is definitely very engaging with eye contact and will look me in the eye when we are playing tug (he likes that a lot too so I need to be reading up on the BEST way to play tug with a wee puppy...even though we are not doing bitework, tug being a great reward--but he is already hanging onto and throwing his back into tugging and giving little grunts)
> 
> The little guy is definitely the energizer bunny and seems pretty smart.



The natural retrieve is something I look for in a pup. Doesn't matter what the end use for the dog will be but it shows a willingness to work with it's "master".


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Bob Scott said:


> The natural retrieve is something I look for in a pup. Doesn't matter what the end use for the dog will be but it shows a willingness to work with it's "master".


Bob,

I think you are spot on with this. Thinking back, my best dogs have had this. I'll add this to my puppy testing repertoire for the next one. Had a blast at the bouvier trials. Khira really did quite well all three trials. Of course one of the ducks had this issue of threatening to beak attack the dogs and doing the split and run routine. She seemed to be handling it well until the 3rd or 4th time. I called the run and ran down field just as she had it by the neck for one of those tosses. The new Khira did drop it on command instead of the keep away game. The judge wanted to know if she was a "retrieving dog." I told him "uhhhhhhh, no." He then laughed and said, "are you sure she won't bring it to you?" When I responded, "uhhhh, not if she is carrying it," he fell out laughing. Joyce had the same or similar set with one of her BCs. She tried to lie the dog down to take the pressure off and the duck ran up the dog's head. Talking about Khira, Carl and I had a good laugh about that one. Really fun relaxed trial.

T


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## Nancy Jocoy

Biddability was one of the things I was looking for and he is definitely showing those traits. Already he sits for me before meals, and opening the door and is walking nicely on lead...very interactive.

Still a little gator into everything but that is also what I wanted. I am plumb wore out by this little fella.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

So Nancy, did the breeder do any particular testing in selecting this puppy for you?

T


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## Nancy Jocoy

She did not do specific xyz test but she has daily notes on things he was exposed to and his response and comments. She is experienced in cadaver dog training and is former LE handler so I trusted her judgement. Time will tell.


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## Sarah Atlas

Best of luck Nancy. 
Like the pedigree I'll be adding another one come Spring.


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## Nancy Jocoy

Kathy is thinking of doing a back to back on this breeding. Not her normal practice but Reza is 100% back already and the vet felt it may help with improving litter size since there were only 4 on this one.

We will see in the next few months how they are all coming along. LOL I forgot to take a redirect toy to the vet and she took pity on me and gave him a CET chew  .......she was impressed with his overall structure (she is a horse person) and condition. ...... and agreed to do titers for me when he gets older.

Still wants to do the lepto on the little guy. I am on the fence but it is endemic here....and we back up to woods . I am at least getting him through the puppy shots (3 way) first.....she says newer vaccines are more purified and less likely to cause a reaction


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## Nancy Jocoy

One question. He is very much into tugging and loves this 3 foot long rope toy that i have but will also tug with tugs that I have. 

I don't want to damage his teeth and I know you can do that....what precautions should I take? 

--
On a side note. Strangest thing. Grim ALWAYS covers another dogs pee with his own. He sniffed Beau's spot and left it alone?


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## Jennifer Coulter

Sounds like you are enjoying your new puppy, sounds full of potential!

On the tugging....

I would play tug with the pup, keep it short, fun, age appropriate and always leave him wanting more.

When the pup is loosing baby teeth is the time I would be more cautious, and maybe take a break from that game all together for a bit, depending on your dog. You will know your dog better by then. I played with my dog through teething, but eased up on the game, though she still wanted to go go go, I tried to play it on the safe side.


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## Adam Rawlings

Nancy,

Sumo has a very interesting pedigree (in a good way), 5-5, 5-5 Cordon An Sat. His lines produces excellent tracking ability, lot's of drive and dog's with a serious edge. More of a patrol type dog than anything else, you will have your hands full. From what I've seen with my own bitch (3-3 Cordon) is that the genetics from this line really leave their mark on a breeding. Your pup will probably share many of the same traits as the sire.

Good luck with him, I look forward to hearing how he develops.


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## Nancy Jocoy

I honestly think I am in a new league here. 

Husband was watching him while I was helping put mom to bed and he came running in with a 6 pack of canned sodas with soda spewing out of one of the cans. ... Then he went back fore more. He is fast - it is one thing to another.

I had to scruff him for going after my silk tree after multiple redirections.


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## Bob Scott

Nancy Jocoy said:


> I honestly think I am in a new league here.
> 
> Husband was watching him while I was helping put mom to bed and he came running in with a 6 pack of canned sodas with soda spewing out of one of the cans. ... Then he went back fore more. He is fast - it is one thing to another.
> 
> I had to scruff him for going after my silk tree after multiple redirections.


 Sounds like a winner to me! ;-)


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## ann schnerre

IDK about lepto--maybe do a bit research if it's really endemic. haven't done a lot of research into it myself cause it's not so much here..

he sounds like a keeper though (but i'm into sport)--tugging is OK til about 4 mo old, then pretty much stop it til adult teeth are in--but you can teach him 2-ball, or other retrieving games while his teeth are coming in, which they like almost as well, IME. and with SAR, sounds like this would be an ideal time to start tracking (which it is anyway), maybe scent boxes or something like that? cause you will need to keep the little, ummmm, booger occupied, lol!

the pop cans sound about as aggravating but good as these guys can be  and redirections can be CHALLENGING. keep us posted nancy--sounds like he's gonna be an adventure 

oh-and if redirections aren't working, just like a3 yr old kid--might be time for a time out, in his case, in a crate. JMO.


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## Nancy Jocoy

On the dog neutrality. ... a question .....

I have all three dogs "getting along" - but they are maybe together for 15 minutes in the yard at night (with us sitting there with a cup of tea and letting them interact) and then Beau and Grim and I go for an offlead woods walk together at lunch.......

Neither dog is going to let him take their toys (which can be anything they pick up in the yard to taunt him with) and I am letting them correct that as right now it is all body language and warnings and he accepts. 

He started pushing things yesterday and would have gotten jumped were I not there...I am not sure it would have been serious...more rough and tumble but .... at what point to I call it off-? 

I did right away when he started jumping on them and before it escalated. 

FWIW I am playing with each dog sepearatly each day though I have had him out when I threw the ball for the others. (but then we went back in the house and I play two ball with him in the hallway...he is a bit distracted by everything outside to play ball in the yard yet.....)

Oh somebody wanted a video. I don't normally play with sticks but I chucked some down in a ravine on our walk day before yesterday. So it is not much....

http://youtu.be/J8UrbNVxOEA


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## Jim Delbridge

Puppies have a special scent that normally protects them from violent interaction with older packmates. This tends to dissipate around 6-8 months of age at which time the pack mates begin to enforce pack rules (what ever those have evolved to be). Unless you crate or kennel your dogs separately when you aren't around, after 16 weeks of age it's better to let them work things out. My four dogs get the run of two wild acres 24 hours a day with each other. Once in a while there is a boo-boo that I have to get the wife to stitch up, but nothing serious. When I go on a search, both dogs have to co-exist in a common area in the back of my Xterra, so territorial issues better be worked out before we load up.

I'd quickly extinguish letting them hunt for sticks as that can become a self-rewarding mechanism on drawn out searches with some dogs. They don't find anything, they grab a stick, and basically stop working. It doesn't happen with all, but I've heard enough complaints about this to avoid it.

Jim


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