# a bit of ring sport bite training...



## Gary Garner (Jun 30, 2007)

I'm trying to bring along the bite suit training a bit more...

I no longer have to 'place' Xena onto the bite, she's target roughly the right area without direction now on the suit.

Here's this morning's session...

She appears to be 'hitting' nice, the bite coming on nicely afterwards. Also, I'm pleased that the 'out/aus' seem to be ok nowadays.

Any thoughts, opinions or tips from those in the know, gratefully received..

Thanks
Gary


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Decoy needs to put the dog on the ground at some point.


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## Gary Garner (Jun 30, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Decoy needs to put the dog on the ground at some point.


Good point. Like it. I'll make sure it happens on next one. Thanks Jeff.


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

All the videos of you and Xena are inspiring Gary =D>=D> What a super nice team!! She's quite the dog!

Do you have that protection dog off leash?!?!?!? :razz:


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## Gary Garner (Jun 30, 2007)

Candy Eggert said:


> All the videos of you and Xena are inspiring Gary =D>=D> What a super nice team!! She's quite the dog!


Thanks, glad you like them... and our training.



Candy Eggert said:


> Do you have that protection dog off leash?!?!?!? :razz:


Is that a rhetorical question?

She works as well off leash as on...better actually.


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## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

Gary Garner said:


> Thanks, glad you like them... and our training.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I like the dog. 

Get that dogs on those pants ASAP, if you don't you'll have a jacket dog like mine hahahaha


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Nice work Gary but calling it Ringsport training to me is a misnomer not a bad thing but to me it looks more like a KNPV style of work.


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Gary Garner said:


> Thanks, glad you like them... and our training.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Gary that was a little jab at all the thread drama about *some* PPD's that can't work off leash. My bad on the attempted humor. It wasn't directed at you or Xena.

She is very clearheaded...I yike a lot:-D Her outs are super nice! Good work and please keep the videos coming. I really enjoy the "relationship" aspect you have between the two.


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## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

Geoff Empey said:


> Nice work Gary but calling it Ringsport training to me is a misnomer not a bad thing but to me it looks more like a KNPV style of work.



Geoff, you should have seen the inner arm bites BB and I had going last night. I have to video tape it for you to see.

40 meters to build speed. 12 foot jump, the momentum darn near ripped my arm off.

I love the rings stuff, but KNPV is a guilty pleasure from time to time hahaha.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Nice work Gary. I second Jeff, and Ted's comments. Looks like a KNPV bite. You getting that from Ian? He should know.

The out was much nicer. Of course it is training...just wait till the next competition.:mrgreen:


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

I can't click on that to make it work, can you put it on youtube or give a direct link to the flv ?


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## Tim Lynam (Jun 12, 2009)

Gary,

At 1:24 in the vid, the decoy torques the dogs head/neck. Though it's not too extreme yet, you don't want to let him develop the habit. He looks like he's new to decoying so just gently caution him about the damage that can be done to the dog. A neck injury at this point in the training could mentally and physically set the dog back. If the decoy doesn't listen, torque HIS head and neck! (and bitch slap him for me too!)

Also, IMO, arm dogs were the easiest to esquive. In Ring Sport, the whole body is a bite surface, including the face and hands... But hey, that's what makes the world go 'round.

Lookin' good!


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## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

Tim Lynam said:


> In Ring Sport, the whole body is a bite surface, including the face and hands...



hahaha, since when?


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## Tim Lynam (Jun 12, 2009)

You must not get out much Lee, er I mean Ted... Since people have gotten in a suit and let dogs bite them, that's when. Many Ring decoys have the scars to prove it. I'm among them. Laugh it up, F'tard. Comments like that will get your Ring dog turned into a pet. HAHAHAHA


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I have yet to see the face bite, and hope never. Dosta got bit in the face this year during the selectiffs. I guess this is really bad, as I was told that in France the dog gets put down.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I have yet to see the face bite, and hope never. Dosta got bit in the face this year during the selectiffs. I guess this is really bad, as I was told that in France the dog gets put down.


What miserable bunch of pussy's they are. Pfft Put the dog down
Train the dog it ain't that hard and people piss and mone about watering down the character of the working dogs. 
Better get them out of the gene pool :???:
My previous dogs 1/2 brother was a cop dog. The guy that handled him was in our club a bad guy one night crawled under a car and wouldn't cone out he sent in the dog the dog grabbed the guy by the head and he grabbed the dog by the back legs and pulled them both out


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Sounds good to me. These rules are silly for sure. You stick your face into a dogs on the OG.............. well, I am sure Dosta wasn't pushing for the dog to be put down. LOL

I heard that one of Soda PoPs brothers got put down for biting his owner in the face. I guess he had something and didn't want to give it up. It is a shame. 

I remember when she was young she would launch into my face. She got me once, and I smacked her head so hard her head hit the floor and that was the end of the face punching. She is very careful now.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Mike Scheiber said:


> What miserable bunch of pussy's they are. Pfft Put the dog down


Not exactly true. From how it was explained to me. All dog bites that require medical attention over there by law the attending MD has the duty to report it to the authorities. Then the dog can be declared dangerous/ aggressive to humans whatever way you want to put it. 

So short version, if a decoy gets bit and requires medical attention the MD by law has to report to animal control for further investigation. Which could lead to the dog being quarantined and possibly put down.

No decoy, handler or any type of protection dog enthusiast wants any of their dogs to be put into that type of situation where the dogs fate is put into the hands of someone who may not have a clue. So I'm sure there is lots of deflection if a decoy needs medical attention as to not put any of the protection sports or dogs into a bad light in an accidental situation. 

Oh as well if there was a dog like Tim described on our clubs field always going for hands and/or the face. It would NOT be on the field long before being excused. That description sounds like the dog is a head case and shouldn't be doing bite work in the first place. 

Face it all of the protection sports and even PSD training is full contact. Accidents have always happened whether it is a fault with a dog or human or no fault at all.. there will always be accidents no doubt. 

Cripes even my little bitch when we were training arms with a new but experienced decoy did something that could be considered a face bite. On a transition from left to right she grazed the decoys cheek as he was bent over and cut him making him bleed. It was an accident pure and simple. I know that, the decoy knows that. She doesn't have aggression issues and respects the decoys. She would rather bite and fight with the suit on the decoy as she gets a lot more satisfaction from that, it is just a big game for her.

But as we know most of the bleeding heart assholes out there could take that info (face bite) and twist it for their own little agendas. [-X

Protect yourself protect your dogs ..


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I have yet to see the face bite, and hope never. Dosta got bit in the face this year during the selectiffs. I guess this is really bad, as I was told that in France the dog gets put down.



Maybe if it was the intent of the dog to bite the decoy in the face and was deemed dangerous. But, I know of French decoys getting bit in the face training at club. The dogs were not destroyed. Sometimes this can happen from the dog being taught to launch over the barrage and times when the dog is taught stationery shoulder and the decoy feeds his face by mistake. 

I've seen decoys getting bit in the hand during the Championships in France during the object and other attacks. One such was Flambeau, GSD at the Cup as he caught the decoy on wrist. I think Serge Ocard's son Lionel was bit at the Paris Championships on the hand. He was wearing gloves that matched his suit and no one believed the dog was going for flesh. I think that it was the year Ivan P. won with Dockside.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Sounds good to me. These rules are silly for sure. You stick your face into a dogs on the OG.............. well, I am sure Dosta wasn't pushing for the dog to be put down. LOL


Exactly .. I'm speculating there was lots of calm discussion by Dosta in the emergency room deflecting info on the incident. There is no way he would put the event, dog or the handler into that type of hot water .. ever.

I'm sure the event organizers were all freaked out, no doubt they were quite nervous until the dust settled.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Debbie Skinner said:


> I think Serge Ocard's son Lionel was bit at the Paris Championships on the hand. He was wearing gloves that matched his suit and no one believed the dog was going for flesh.


Gloves .. the skin is covered plus being the same colour! That is fair game for the dog, what was he thinking? :-k I hope the dog got full points! \\/

To me if the dogs (sport) foundation is done right with a lot of play between the decoy and dog. There is no reason unless the dog is a head case that the dog wouldn't respect any decoy. 

Though accidents and incidents will always happen face it ringsport is a 'full' contact sport. 

Case in point .. LOL! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBZYHdNZUDo&feature=related


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## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

Tim Lynam said:


> You must not get out much Lee, er I mean Ted... Since people have gotten in a suit and let dogs bite them, that's when. Many Ring decoys have the scars to prove it. I'm among them. Laugh it up, F'tard. Comments like that will get your Ring dog turned into a pet. HAHAHAHA


Yeah ok Tim. I understand that the dog is supposed to grab any part of the suit.... but to say that the face and hands are a biting surface is a little off. (maybe if the decoy is wearing gloves)

The only time I have seen this, or heard of this is when a dog is in very high drive and mis-judges a bite and grabs a hand, or nose by accident, then the dog sees it's error and lets go. If a hand was part of the biting surface, wouldn't these dogs grab the hand, and not let go? Just like on a suit?

If the entire suit, plus hands and face, wouldn't you have to add feet to that also?
When was the last time you saw a foot-bite in FR Tim?

Sorry to be sausy, but you did call me a F'tard hahaha. 
peace.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Geoff Empey said:


> Gloves .. the skin is covered plus being the same colour! That is fair game for the dog, what was he thinking? :-k I hope the dog got full points! \\/
> 
> To me if the dogs (sport) foundation is done right with a lot of play between the decoy and dog. There is no reason unless the dog is a head case that the dog wouldn't respect any decoy.
> 
> ...



Hey, he looked real cute and all matching! :-D I don't know if they respect the trial decoy, but they should respect their trainers and with all their foundation training and conditioning for the exercises, the dogs "usually" perform how they are trained.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Geoff Empey said:


> Though accidents and incidents will always happen face it ringsport is a 'full' contact sport.
> 
> Case in point .. LOL! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBZYHdNZUDo&feature=related



Did Keebee get him in the face? The blind was blocking most of it, but to me it looked like the dog caught him high on the jacket near the collar and the impact took him to the ground.


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## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

Debbie Skinner said:


> Did Keebee get him in the face? The blind was blocking most of it, but to me it looked like the dog caught him high on the jacket near the collar and the impact took him to the ground.


The bite he grabbed in the video was a upper chest bite. 100% suit.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Debbie Skinner said:


> Hey, he looked real cute and all matching! :-D


Yeah I bet it really mattered when he was lying on the gurney in Emergency crying for momma as the Doctor reset the broken bones and stitched him back up! :-D Ha ha! *I'm sure his note to self was don't wear matching gloves next time I decoy the championships*



Debbie Skinner said:


> I don't know if they respect the trial decoy, but they should respect their trainers and with all their foundation training and conditioning for the exercises, the dogs "usually" perform how they are trained.


"usually" [-o<


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Ted Efthymiadis said:


> The bite he grabbed in the video was a upper chest bite. 100% suit.


Yeah Debbie it was purely all suit but 3" the other way .. :-o you know, things happen fast that's why I posted that video.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Geoff Empey said:


> Yeah I bet it really mattered when he was lying on the gurney in Emergency crying for momma as the Doctor reset the broken bones and stitched him back up! :-D Ha ha! *I'm sure his note to self was don't wear matching gloves next time I decoy the championships*
> 
> 
> 
> "usually" [-o<



Oh, I didn't say he went to the Emergency. He's fairly tough and his hand wasn't broken. Taped his hand up some,put the glove back on and continued. I know as he sat with us in the stadium. To show what good shape these young French decoys are in, he worked his exercises for each dog and in between ran up the stadium steps to sit and chat and then ran back for each dog. I guess that's why by 30 years old they are considered old in France... Oh, and most of them are smoking cigarettes in between dogs too! :-D


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## Tim Lynam (Jun 12, 2009)

Ted,

My reaction to your comment was a generational schism. When I started in Ring it was a PPD test. No holes barred, dog vs decoy. The handler was only on the trial field to out the dog and not lose points by twitching a finger at the wrong time. They would rather lose a couple points to the dog intimidating the decoy with nasty little tricks of pain. But I digress...

The first rule of being a decoy is: "Never stick anything in the dog's mouth you don't want bit." Tell that to the dog...

During my many trips to the hospital, I NEVER mentioned my injury was a dog bite. ER doctors knew it was and rarely believed me, but; I just stuck to the story. The kennel owner always kept a sacrificial POS in one of the runs just in case Animal Control came calling demanding their pound of flesh.

Oh, and by the way, a foot bite on entry would have been considered "weak temperament." A foot bite on the out on the other hand...

Maybe we'll meet some day and Uncle Tim will buy ya a beer and tell you stories about the good old days.

Good luck with your training!


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## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

Tim Lynam said:


> Ted,
> 
> My reaction to your comment was a generational schism. When I started in Ring it was a PPD test. No holes barred, dog vs decoy. The handler was only on the trial field to out the dog and not lose points by twitching a finger at the wrong time. They would rather lose a couple points to the dog intimidating the decoy with nasty little tricks of pain. But I digress...
> 
> ...


hahaha, I guess things have changed. I'm looking forward to that beer, and many stories.

-ted


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Tim Lynam said:


> My reaction to your comment was a generational schism. When I started in Ring it was a PPD test. No holes barred, dog vs decoy. The handler was only on the trial field to out the dog and not lose points by twitching a finger at the wrong time. They would rather lose a couple points to the dog intimidating the decoy with nasty little tricks of pain. But I digress...


Maybe it was an East Coast vs West Coast thing, but that's not how I remember Ring "back in the day". Sure accidents happened, but any dog who routinely went after hands or face had the crap kicked out of it, and if it kept doing it then it was gotten rid of. And if it happened in a trial the handler got a strong warning, with the threat of loosing their scorebook. Never actually saw someone loose their book, but then again I didn't see the dogs actually get the bite they were trying for, the decoys were able to fend them off.


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## Tim Lynam (Jun 12, 2009)

Kadi,

Back in my day there was no West Coast thing... It was France, then a club each in Colorado, Maine, Michigan and a Canadian. I just missed the first Ring Seminar in North America. The training director and the Canadian went. She (the TD) came back from it and we went to work. I was the 2nd "National Select" level decoy in North America. The first was from Colorado (I think) and I don't think he ever trialed.

You're just a kid, Kadi!

Californians think they thought up everything. LOL


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## Tim Lynam (Jun 12, 2009)

Debbie Skinner said:


> Oh, I didn't say he went to the Emergency. He's fairly tough and his hand wasn't broken. Taped his hand up some,put the glove back on and continued. I know as he sat with us in the stadium. To show what good shape these young French decoys are in, he worked his exercises for each dog and in between ran up the stadium steps to sit and chat and then ran back for each dog. I guess that's why by 30 years old they are considered old in France... Oh, and most of them are smoking cigarettes in between dogs too! :-D


Right on Ded, a minor decoy injury like a crunched hand is no reason to stop a trial.

And I bet they never took off their costume either. I used to tell young decoys that maybe they should start smoking. They'd work 3 dogs and be gassed so I'd work the next 10 and casually go get a cig. I would never even think of letting a Judge see me looking like I wanted to stop, for ANY reason. If I was winded, I'd hold may breath while he talked to me. (I learned that trick from Paul Cipparone.) I removed my costume when he told me it was ok to remove it. Heck, decoys weren't even allowed to stay in the same Hotel as the Judges!

For the record, our club taught the groin bite. Center mass and where the hips go, the man goes. Saw 2 training decoys get paper punched through the penis. I don't care what drug cocktail a bad guy is on, he's going down NOW. If you think a cup would solve the problem, NO. I saw a Doberman clamshell a cup on a decoy. Same results. These things inspire one to MOVE fast when working Ring dogs. Thus thin costumes and great amounts of skill.

The point to all of this was that if you train a dog to take out a man, why in the world would you place limits on the dog? As long as the dog is under total control, what would be the point? You give the dog the command to attack, teach the dog when defending you is appropriate and when he needs to do that he has power to do it NOW. Go take that SOB down!


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Tim Lynam said:


> Californians think they thought up everything. LOL


I might take that as an insult, if I was actually from California LOL


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Tim Lynam said:


> Kadi,
> 
> Back in my day there was no West Coast thing... It was France, then a club each in Colorado, Maine, Michigan and a Canadian. I just missed the first Ring Seminar in North America. The training director and the Canadian went. She (the TD) came back from it and we went to work. I was the 2nd "National Select" level decoy in North America. The first was from Colorado (I think) and I don't think he ever trialed.
> 
> ...


I believe one of the first certified decoy was Gerry Zohr of JC Balu's club (Fontana, CA) that went to that CO event. Gerry had Rotties. Gerry was from SoCal :-D


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## Tim Lynam (Jun 12, 2009)

I was just kiddin' anyway. They don't have a tongue in cheek smiley...

That's all old school stuff anyway. Now having your dog bite someone has to be politically correct. Judging from some of the vids, it's safety for all but the dog. At least we aren't to the "shoot to wound" crap YET.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Well French Ring has always been more about the decoy and handler than the dog. The NVBK is more about the dog.


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## Tim Lynam (Jun 12, 2009)

Debbie,

Jean Claude was a piece of work!

To many brain cells ago to remember Gerry. I trust you're right. Picture me with my foot in my mouth...


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Hey, it's going way back. I met Gerry after he was out of FR and just training protection dogs. I met JC Balu in 1989 and he had a ring club in Fontana still. Back then Henryk Demenet was still decoying trials and would come over during the summers.


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## Tim Lynam (Jun 12, 2009)

Hey Gary,

Sorry I hijacked the thread!

What got lost in all the memory lane stuff from me is the FACT that Ring Dogs are some of the safest dogs to have in society ON THE PLANET. You'll never underestimate what a dog can do again. These trainers and handlers are the best.

Besides my advice on the decoy in the video It just seems to me you need to seek out a good, reputable Ring trainer and Ring Decoy to move the dog along. That may not be easy but it is necessary.

You have had the best reply to this thread. I'd say there is over 100 years of Ring experience giving you advice. PM a few and see who they would recommend to help you. Call who they say, set something up and throw the dog in the truck and go pay them a visit. It's time...


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## Gary Garner (Jun 30, 2007)

Tim Lynam said:


> Hey Gary,
> 
> Sorry I hijacked the thread!


No problem



Tim Lynam said:


> You have had the best reply to this thread. I'd say there is over 100 years of Ring experience giving you advice. PM a few and see who they would recommend to help you. Call who they say, set something up and throw the dog in the truck and go pay them a visit. It's time...


Yeah, I'm always on the lookout for good advice...

As for throwing the dog in the truck, it's a case of the truck onto a ship - as I'm in England, UK remember - so paying some of the guys a visit on here (as much as I'd love to) would be a bit like a Mayflower pilgrimage..:-k:mrgreen:


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Tim Lynam said:


> Hey Gary,
> 
> Sorry I hijacked the thread!
> 
> ...


I don't think it was just Tim only who hijacked the thread Gary. [-( I do agree with him though you should try some more ringsport techniques with Xena and that goes with Jeff's comment earlier about putting Xena down on the legs to give her other targets. For that you need as Tim says a more experienced decoy or someone to show you guys the ropes. 

Our club has worked with a fair bit of the top 10% handlers, training/trial decoys and Judges from North America, France and Mexico. That is how we learned.

Yourself being in the UK should take a trip over to France and spend a week or so checking out a few clubs and meet a few people. We have a judge coming from France I'll ask him for you and see what he suggests. 

To me even if yourself, Xena and your decoy/helper friend get to work a few times with a decoy from France even a lvl 1 (you don't need a superstar to show the ropes) you guys will have a blast and have lots to add to your program.


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## Tim Lynam (Jun 12, 2009)

Thanks for answering him Geoff. I was actually struck speechless for a second. You saved me a lot of not so kind typing...


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## Gary Garner (Jun 30, 2007)

Tim Lynam said:


> Thanks for answering him Geoff. I was actually struck speechless for a second. You saved me a lot of not so kind typing...


Did I say something wrong Tim ?


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## Tim Lynam (Jun 12, 2009)

These people may/would have referred you to their contacts and friends in FRANCE not here.... Most have been there to train/trial. Just like Geoff, all of them have flown judges and decoys to the U.S. for decades.

You just had a brain fart. I wish I could say I never had one! LOL

Good luck with your dog Gary.


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