# How do you de-program a pup



## FRANK PORT (Jul 29, 2011)

Hi
Need a little help
I have a 4 month old GSD pup that will go after a rag/tug/toy when he is not restrained.If you hold him back with a harness or leash playing puppy bitework, he sits and won't go for it. He will initially shoot for it, but when he feels the tension of being held back, he reacts like he is given a sit command. He was taught how to sit while on the leash, so I think he may be getting mixed messages. What steps do I take to correct this? 

Thanks


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

You need to either get enough prey drive going so he doesn't notice the pressure of the leash/harness OR do him off leash?


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## Adam Swilling (Feb 12, 2009)

FRANK PORT said:


> Hi
> Need a little help
> I have a 4 month old GSD pup that will go after a rag/tug/toy when he is not restrained.If you hold him back with a harness or leash playing puppy bitework, he sits and won't go for it. He will initially shoot for it, but when he feels the tension of being held back, he reacts like he is given a sit command. He was taught how to sit while on the leash, so I think he may be getting mixed messages. What steps do I take to correct this?
> 
> Thanks


 This is one reason why I stopped doing OB with a dog that young. It's all about drive building at that age. Thomas is right; you've got to get him mad hatter crazy in prey on the leash or just take him off the leash.


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## Shane Woodlief (Sep 9, 2009)

Take him off the leash and the harness and all of that and just play with the dog. Read your dog he may be telling you he is not ready for that yet. Just play with him with very, very little OB. All fun and just build drive! Make him super crazy for the tug. Don't rush just have fun play with him at this age.


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## FRANK PORT (Jul 29, 2011)

I appreciate the input. I'll do minimal obediance and just play with him off leash trying to get his drive up

Thanks


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## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

Adam Swilling said:


> This is one reason why I stopped doing OB with a dog that young. It's all about drive building at that age. Thomas is right; you've got to get him mad hatter crazy in prey on the leash or just take him off the leash.


Just for the record, I completely disagree with you. Obedience can be taught in drive at 4 months. 

That said, I agree that in this particular situation cool the obedience and have fun.


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## Ang Cangiano (Mar 2, 2007)

Put the harness on him for walks and let him pull you. 

Ang


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## Adam Swilling (Feb 12, 2009)

Ben Colbert said:


> Just for the record, I completely disagree with you. Obedience can be taught in drive at 4 months.
> 
> That said, I agree that in this particular situation cool the obedience and have fun.


 I'm not saying it can't be taught, even in drive, at that age. But you are capping the drive to some degree, IMO. It's just not something I personally do. It's an age old debate, I know. I'm just of the school of thought that too much OB that early is unnecessary; I think the focus should be on building drive at that point. Just different philosophies.


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

If you say he's really good off leash I would gradually add the harness and let him learn he can work through it. Let him do the drive work just wearing the harness, no leash attached. You can even let him learn that the harness comes out, he gets to play. If he's doing really good and you think he can take it, you can do little tiny half second hold backs, just hook a finger on the harness and let go.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

You can also put the harness on him with a leather leash, like the type you would use for agitation work, and let him just run around the yard dragging it. He'll get used to the harness and pulling against it away from the rag work, and that will transfer over to the work later.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

do you have someone that can work with you ?
will he eagerly release and go to you when slightly restrained ?

add that in the mix too and mark/reward him going to you by then offering the play/prey item (iow, make all play interactive)

all positions (sits/downs/stands/recalls) can be taught to a pup w/out being "leash" connected.....light weight long drag line is just to keep him from running off when distracted (he's a pup) 

but def agree this should all viewed (by him) as all play and not OB in any way
- if really hyper might want to have a line on the prey item to be able to animate it and keep it in the game


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

What Kadi and Marta said


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

To jump in on the side topic that Ben and Adam started....

We have all seen dogs that have had too much control put on them in various situations.It *can* be displayed in anything, doesn't have to happen in bitework. Doesn't have to involve any leashes either

As far as OB and control work go, I think it depends a great deal on the quality of the dog and its individual traits, the goals of the handler/trainers, the lifestyle the dog is expected to live, and the skills of the people doing the training to achieve the that balance.

To add another twist, we have probably all seen dogs the have had too much protection work done too early. This also depends heavily on the above factors.

Different people view the roles that their dogs fit in there lives, and the "jobs" that the dog is supposed to do. 

The amount of control that the "work" demands of the dog/handler team, and again, the genetics of the dog, are big factors in the dogs training timeline...and how those fit into the training program.

There are good reasons that certain handlers/trainers are looking to find young dogs with good genetics, that ideally have very little training done with them in regards to OB, control, or bitework. 

With some dogs, depending on the factors listed above, sometimes no training is better than poor training.


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## Shane Woodlief (Sep 9, 2009)

With your ideas around waiting to do obedience later - it would seem to me that the longer you wait to teach just the very minimum sit, down, out etc.. that there is higher chance for creating lots of conflict and more drive capping - JMO

Teaching the basics earlier would seem to me to just become part of normal puppy behaviour and part of the game we play. Now I have to say I am not talking about compulsion but teaching in drive with positive 
re-enforcement.

What do you see in an older pup/dog and teaching the basics? Is there conflict and drive capping? 



Adam Swilling said:


> I'm not saying it can't be taught, even in drive, at that age. But you are capping the drive to some degree, IMO. It's just not something I personally do. It's an age old debate, I know. I'm just of the school of thought that too much OB that early is unnecessary; I think the focus should be on building drive at that point. Just different philosophies.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Shane Woodlief said:


> With your ideas around waiting to do obedience later - it would seem to me that the longer you wait to teach just the very minimum sit, down, out etc.. that there is higher chance for creating lots of conflict and more drive capping - JMO
> 
> Teaching the basics earlier would seem to me to just become part of normal puppy behaviour and part of the game we play. Now I have to say I am not talking about compulsion but teaching in drive with positive
> re-enforcement.
> ...


Not that I agree or disagree, I have heard the same phrase from many different people...It somehow might fit into the topic...

"I would rather have a dog that doesn't out well, than one that doesn't bite well."


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Depending on the dog I might try what was said...And maybe start tying the dog out for periods of time...Letting him investigate and test the boundries of the restraints, and get used to them, without you involved in the restraining. 

Could then shortly start to get the dog doing what you want while he is restrained.

It could be handler influenced, and you *might* see a different reaction on a tie-out.


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## Shane Woodlief (Sep 9, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> Not that I agree or disagree, I have heard the same phrase from many different people...It somehow might fit into the topic...
> 
> "I would rather have a dog that doesn't out well, than one that doesn't bite well."


I imagine your talking about my saying the teaching of the "out". I believe that if you make the dog crazy for the tug and he always wins (haahha) that the "out" taught properly at the right time could actually build more drive for the bite. 

I have not had a dog yet that hasn't loved to bite me hahahahah!


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## Shane Woodlief (Sep 9, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> Depending on the dog I might try what was said...And maybe start tying the dog out for periods of time...Letting him investigate and test the boundries of the restraints, and get used to them, without you involved in the restraining.
> 
> Could then shortly start to get the dog doing what you want while he is restrained.
> 
> It could be handler influenced, and you *might* see a different reaction on a tie-out.


I think the real issue for most people is that they don't know how to play with their dog. They have not built the dogs drive in play and ruff housing and then they stick the dog out on a back tie and wonders why it sits there looking at them the first conclusion they come up with is that the dog sucks when in reality it is their training that sucks. JMO


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Shane Woodlief said:


> I imagine your talking about my saying the teaching of the "out". I believe that if you make the dog crazy for the tug and he always wins (haahha) that the "out" taught properly at the right time could actually build more drive for the bite.
> 
> I have not had a dog yet that hasn't loved to bite me hahahahah!


I agree with that too....just talking generalities...

It sounds like the OP's dog may not have been raised and handled/trained, in a way that it fits what he wants to do with the dog at this point...


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## Adam Swilling (Feb 12, 2009)

Shane Woodlief said:


> With your ideas around waiting to do obedience later - it would seem to me that the longer you wait to teach just the very minimum sit, down, out etc.. that there is higher chance for creating lots of conflict and more drive capping - JMO
> 
> Teaching the basics earlier would seem to me to just become part of normal puppy behaviour and part of the game we play. Now I have to say I am not talking about compulsion but teaching in drive with positive
> re-enforcement.
> ...


 Anytime you do OB you're going to cap drive, to some extent, regardless of the age you start. The difference I see by waiting is that the drive level doesn't decrease near as much during OB. I don't see any more conflict than most people who start it early do and most times I see less. I see less because drive building done correctly builds a young dog's confidence. When teaching something like an out, which is where most of us see the most conflict, the more confident the dog is the easier it is to teach an out. A dog that knows it's going to win has no problem letting go; it's confident that it will will and can win again. I 've also found that by waiting a dog can handle the corrections better when it's time to incorporate them into OB training. The dog is a little more mature and any dog can handle corrections better the higher the drive level they're in.


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## Shane Woodlief (Sep 9, 2009)

Adam Swilling said:


> Anytime you do OB you're going to cap drive, to some extent, regardless of the age you start. The difference I see by waiting is that the drive level doesn't decrease near as much during OB. I don't see any more conflict than most people who start it early do and most times I see less. I see less because drive building done correctly builds a young dog's confidence. When teaching something like an out, which is where most of us see the most conflict, the more confident the dog is the easier it is to teach an out. A dog that knows it's going to win has no problem letting go; it's confident that it will will and can win again. I 've also found that by waiting a dog can handle the corrections better when it's time to incorporate them into OB training. The dog is a little more mature and any dog can handle corrections better the higher the drive level they're in.


Thanks for your insights. I think each dog has to be evaluated and then a plan put in place for that dog - but in generalities I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Best of luck to you man


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## Adam Swilling (Feb 12, 2009)

Shane Woodlief said:


> Thanks for your insights. I think each dog has to be evaluated and then a plan put in place for that dog - but in generalities I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Best of luck to you man


 I think you bring up a very valid point: each dog should have a training plan based on what the trainer sees. For what I do with my dogs, the waiting method has worked out pretty well so far. I'll never own a world competitor in any sport venue because of the types of dogs I prefer to own and how I train. But I'm okay with that. But I honestly do think that what makes the dog training world great is that there are alot of good trainers out there with varying philosophies that everyone can learn from.


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## Adam Georgitso (Sep 15, 2011)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> You can also put the harness on him with a leather leash, like the type you would use for agitation work, and let him just run around the yard dragging it. He'll get used to the harness and pulling against it away from the rag work, and that will transfer over to the work later.


I agree with Kadi, he beat me to it.


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## Adam Georgitso (Sep 15, 2011)

Adam Swilling said:


> I'm not saying it can't be taught, even in drive, at that age. But you are capping the drive to some degree, IMO. It's just not something I personally do. It's an age old debate, I know. I'm just of the school of thought that too much OB that early is unnecessary; I think the focus should be on building drive at that point. Just different philosophies.


If you're doing OB strictly in drive, without correction, how does that cap the pup's drive?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Adam Georgitso said:


> If you're doing OB strictly in drive, without correction, how does that cap the pup's drive?


If it is done in drive it is still capping some kind of drive.


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