# Similar to the Ring Vs. Sch arguments....Sleeve Vs. Suit



## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

I was watching some people do sleeve work with a few dogs....Said dogs were not very strong in terms of grip, growling, and defintly showed the tell tale signs of not being very comfortable with what they were doing. They had to be severly helped to even keep them on during pressure,.

Now I saw the same dogs the other day on a suit....Now 2 of the dogs were absolutley different in thier work they seemed to much more comfortable....well on the bicep, and biting the legs and biting the back they were.... full on grips fighting when crowded, hugged, touched or tapped....on even allowed himself to be lifted up for a bit.

What do you make of that?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

You left out a lot about the dogs experience.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Not at all uncommon. I see it all the time with KNPV dogs. Some of the titled KNPV dogs that I get in here have shitty grips on a sleeve, very growly and uneasy there. But put them on a suit and they hammer in deep and full, and work great. They will also work good in a muzzle and have very good nerves but just have no experience on a sleeve. Not really too uncommon. It usually only takes a few sessions on a sleeve for them to be good there too though.
No different than some of the IPO titled dogs from Germany that I bring in. Most of them have no idea what a suit is and have never bitten anything other than a forearm and an exposed sleeve. Most of them will bite full and deep on a suit after a few sessions, but the first session is usually with very shitty grips. It is all a matter of training and exposure. Just like anything else with a dog.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

James Downey said:


> I was watching some people do sleeve work with a few dogs....Said dogs were not very strong in terms of grip, growling, and defintly showed the tell tale signs of not being very comfortable with what they were doing. They had to be severly helped to even keep them on during pressure,.
> 
> Now I saw the same dogs the other day on a suit....Now 2 of the dogs were absolutley different in thier work they seemed to much more comfortable....well on the bicep, and biting the legs and biting the back they were.... full on grips fighting when crowded, hugged, touched or tapped....on even allowed himself to be lifted up for a bit.
> 
> What do you make of that?



James,

I've been having grip issues with my two year old male Dobermann. He has a nice full grip, but he needs to be teased and frustrated before he uses it. If you send him in cold he'll barely grip, or sometimes not even open his mouth. We put him on a jambierre (legs/arms) and then a suit jacket. He did much better.
However, I went to a Mike Ellis seminar last Sunday and asked
Mike about it. He said IF I'm going to do Schutzhund with this
dog I didn't want to do suit work. His theory was, dogs tend to like the feel of a suit in their mouths and if he got to used to
the satisfaction of munching on soft linen he wouldn't want to bite a hard Schutzhund sleeve anymore.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

mike suttle said:


> Not at all uncommon. I see it all the time with KNPV dogs. Some of the titled KNPV dogs that I get in here have shitty grips on a sleeve, very growly and uneasy there. But put them on a suit and they hammer in deep and full, and work great. They will also work good in a muzzle and have very good nerves but just have no experience on a sleeve. Not really too uncommon. It usually only takes a few sessions on a sleeve for them to be good there too though.
> No different than some of the IPO titled dogs from Germany that I bring in. Most of them have no idea what a suit is and have never bitten anything other than a forearm and an exposed sleeve. Most of them will bite full and deep on a suit after a few sessions, but the first session is usually with very shitty grips. It is all a matter of training and exposure. Just like anything else with a dog.


So what's the deal when the dogs were sleeve trained and were doing the suit for fun?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Without knowing the dogs personally, or knowing the the training style/progression it is hard to say.

From what I have seen from some dogs I think that certain dogs do a lot better on the suit because all they have seen is a sleeve over and over and over. 

I could be talking out of my ass here but I really think that as training progresses and the dogs mature and the scenarios and pressure increase some dogs see more and more pressure and if they don't have bomb proof nerves and are NOT locked up into prey as SOME sport dogs are, they are left with little satisfaction. Decoys are not "acting" like they are getting hurt. They are not acting like they are overpowered by the dog, all the dog gets if he is lucky is a slipped sleeve or a re-grip on a sleeve, which was great in earlier stuff but now the dog wants more than just the sleeve. The dogs put up with more fighting and pressure and certain dogs will take that more personally and I think if they have and aggressive edge and develop the desire to overpower and even "hurt" the decoy. I think for some dogs they are not satisfied, they are left wanting, and they get to feeling that can't really win the way they want to.

Take some of these dogs and get them on a suit on a decoy that lets them find him in there and acts according to the grips and counters and you see a big difference. The suit is way more flexible, and the dog can fell the man inside, and he knows that occasionally he can hurt the guy. 

Not sure if this "theory" applies to the dogs you saw but I truly believe this happens with certain types of dogs when put on a suit.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

I have a similar experience. Dog was ok on sleeve, kind of moved his grip around, but bit okay. put him on the suit and he is full and pushing in on the bicep. I put him BACK on the sleeve and am continuing to work his grip, but it is much better, more full, and less thrashy after some suit work. I am dealing with a boxer, but similar to what you saw. 

I'd be curious as to the dogs background and further training...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Dave Colborn said:


> I have a similar experience. Dog was ok on sleeve, kind of moved his grip around, but bit okay. put him on the suit and he is full and pushing in on the bicep. I put him BACK on the sleeve and am continuing to work his grip, but it is much better, more full, and less thrashy after some suit work. I am dealing with a boxer, but similar to what you saw.
> 
> I'd be curious as to the dogs background and further training...


Every boxer I ever worked brought a fair amount of aggression into the biting...and I saw similar results...


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Thomas Barriano said:


> I've been having grip issues with my two year old male Dobermann. He has a nice full grip, but he needs to be teased and frustrated before he uses it. If you send him in cold he'll barely grip, or sometimes not even open his mouth...


 Thomas what's the deal with that? Too much defense, too early? More of a sport dog?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

To high thresholds. The teasing works to break through the threshold.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Thomas what's the deal with that? Too much defense, too early? More of a sport dog?


Hey Howard


I think too much defense was part of the problem. Flann is not quite two yet and is very handler sensitive (part genetics, part the way I train) I've had two HOT SchH III Dobermanns and both have had training challenges. That's what makes training fun.
I tried putting him on both rings on a prong collar and dragging him out of the H&B to build frustration/aggression. TOO much
for this dog. I switched from a harness to an agitation collar and did the pull outs yesterday. Worked GREAT. strong bark, full powerful grip 
My biggest training problem is finding a decoy that is willing to
work my dogs the way I want and not use the same old 
cookie cutter methods they use on every other dog they work


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> To high thresholds. The teasing works to break through the threshold.


Jeff,

I think that's part of the problem. Thresholds can be either genetic or environmental. In Flans case he's more worried about pleasing me than what the decoy is doing. I think we're on our way to
working through the problem. As long as I remember he's a two year old Male Dobermann goof


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Hey Howard
> 
> 
> I think too much defense was part of the problem. Flann is not quite two yet and is very handler sensitive (part genetics, part the way I train) I've had two HOT SchH III Dobermanns and both have had training challenges. That's what makes training fun.
> ...


Come to Delaware!!!
Cookie cutter training is something that I have never been warm to...
All dogs have different drives and mature at different stages, even those in the same litter can show maturity levels differently. Finding people who will train the way YOU want is the key! 

Just a thought, less decoy pressure, more/calm handler security while the dog is on the bite. Does the decoy ever go to the ground and allow the dog to dominate and stand over the "fallen" decoy? How about having the dog chase the decoy off the foeld w/o a bite, then bring the two back out for more dog pressure and less decoy pressure. As the dog builds his mind, the bite might build and the drive might increase...

Of course if you have a shitter...get a Bouvier!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:razz:\\/JMHO LOL


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Come to Delaware!!!
> Cookie cutter training is something that I have never been warm to...
> All dogs have different drives and mature at different stages, even those in the same litter can show maturity levels differently. Finding people who will train the way YOU want is the key!
> 
> ...


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