# Quick movement triggers herding dog to nip



## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

Now I know a lot of you train your dogs to bite or attack on command but I need some advice on how to work with a dog that will nip if you move too quickly ie getting out of the chair fast to get to the phone or even walking quickly across the floor. This morning the little monster was sitting next to me on the sofa when I jumped up quickly to pick up something I had told the puppy to drop. I moved fast without thinking and he nailed me on the arm. He is a mini aussie and although he left a mark he did not break the skin and it was more of a pinch. But there is no excuses-he







should not do that no matter what. I believe it is related to the herding instinct which is strong in him. If I walk across the floor fast he will jump up as if to get my heels but if I give him a look he will stop in his tracks. I reward him verbally. However there are those times that you instinctively hurry or jump up because you have to and darn if he didnt get me this morning. He never breaks the skin-it is always just a nip or pinch but I dont really need to be nipped or pinched. Anyone have any ideas on how to stop the little bugger? BTW he is a rescue I saved from a rabies control center where he was on deathrow. He was 8 months old and after being beaten severely was turned in for nipping kid's heels when they ran in the yard or house. So its no surprise that he does this. When he first came here and he tried that I would turn quickly say NO and make him sit. In time I could give him a look or point my finger at him and he would just stay where he was. But this morning my mind was centered on the puppy and not him and there you are, Ideas?


----------



## Lisa Brazeau (May 6, 2010)

Hmmmmm. It sounds like he's disciplining you to me. Could be breed related but I would still set some clear boundaries - like no couching. 

Even my malinois pups doing bite-work are not allowed to bite me. Caviat here - I've been bitten while playing due to my clumsiness. When in drive those fast little shark faces will get you. I also fostered a mal pup that would put holes in me on a regular basis, but again, in drive while training, not while hanging out in the house. I think it's a big misconception that dogs training in bite-sports are allowed to take shots at their handlers. Also, this type of biting happened while the pups were quite young - younger than 6 mos. 

At over 8 mos old your boy either needs a major attitude adjustment, or better management, or both.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Well, the whole mini-aussie breeding thing is another thread but its not herding instinct. This is a management thing and maybe temperament. As Lisa indicated, its time for a come to Jesus and some serious obedience work. I also wouldn't elevate him and have him on the couch until he figured out that humans aren't prey or something for him to control and that the human is the leader.

Terrasita


----------



## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

I know there is a lot talk out there regarding mini aussies especially by aussie breeders. Personally I do not want to get in the middle of all of that. But having said that do not underestimate the herding ability or instints of these smaller versions. I have owned aussies for over 35 years and this little guy could out herd a lot of the standard size aussies that had working lines up and down. Sam apparently had a problem with this in some degree when he was pulled from the animal retention center. He is a friendly outgoing guy and quickly learned the rules of the house. He was on the sofa by my invitation. I do not allow any dog to be on the sofa unless I invite them. He knows all basic obedience. You can bathe, groom him, cut his nails and play with him and never even get an accidental bite. I have studied him in play with the other dogs and have taken time to analize what triggers him to jump into action. I could right this minute jump up and run and as long as I take a second to give him a cue or direction not to move or follow all is well. But like this morning if I just react there is a possiblity he will as well. I know what it is to be the pack leader and I have no doubt that these dogs consider me theirs. This seems to be a behavior that is incited by fast movement. It might be that it can never be totally stopped. 
I mentioned that dogs are trained here to attack not because I then think they will bite you but because these trainers might have a better idea how to control the dog that is easy to incite with movement, etc.
I have never worked with that type of training or dogs and hoped to learn something from them that might help.


----------



## Natasha Keating (Apr 8, 2010)

Are you planning on doing agility with this little guy? In agility dog should move with the handler on the side, left or right and a lot of value is built for being in the reinforcement zone(on either side). My guess if you start working with him being at your side and walking slowly, then fast and running, he might change. Also do you stop your fast movement after he nips you? and then you look at him? Then his nipping behaviour is self reinforcing(if it truly comes from herding) Just my thoughts....


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

VERY good points Natasha !


----------



## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

When he first came and we learned his nipping trick I was at a lost how to fix it so I did what I thought was best. I did not give him the chance to follow and nip. I would purposely walk fast and keep my eye on him. IF he started to give chase I would turn around to face him say No and then give him a command of sit or down to redirect his thoughts. This worked well. If I was sitting and would get up fast I could say No Sam and he would immediately sit. But this morning I wasnt on my game and he surprised me. I love the idea of teaching him to run with me at my side and although I hadnt planned on doing agility with him I do have some equipment here to work with him. 

I have been thinking about the herding. I have a couple of house rabbits. Sam took to the rabbits the minute he met them -really loves them. Sort of odd right? He will herd the other three dogs away from the rabbits -he is very protective of them-and I am trying to remember if he ever nipped the dogs as he herds them away. Oddly enough the rabbits can really take off running and that never causes him to chase or nip them. This seems to be directed only on people. Taking on a rescue is always a mystery. You always wonder what was done to them or how they were raised and handled. They can comei nto your home and for the first two weeks be on good behavior and then you get a surprise one day when something happens that brings out a behavior in them. Sam is a keeper. I am more than willing to work with him. Agility training will begin tomorrow. Thanks for the great idea Natasha.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Sorry, you cannot really tell if he has herding stock sense by what he does with people or other dogs. There is also more to herding instinct than bite in reaction to movement or sudden movement. I would correct him in the moment, at the height of the action--the actual nip. With a trigger behavior, catching it before it reaches its peak doesn't work. Forget that he is a rescue and the tendency to feel sorry for. Its probably something where done once and right, you won't have to revisit it again. 


Terrasita


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I would not allow an 8 month old dog to bite me at all, unless I wanted it to..and that would be with equipment on.

8 weeks is bad enough, 8 months is something else entirely...




vicki dickey said:


> He is a friendly outgoing guy and quickly learned the rules of the house..... This seems to be a behavior that is incited by fast movement. It might be that it can never be totally stopped.
> ....
> I mentioned that dogs are trained here to attack not because I then think they will bite you but because these trainers might have a better idea how to control the dog that is easy to incite with movement, etc.


Vicki.

He obviously did not learn the rules of the house, unless biting you is acceptable within your rules. 

It IS a behavior that can TOTALLY be stopped. 

Most everyone on this board probably has dogs that are very easily incited by quick movements, but most of us have clear boundries on what the dog is allowed to bite...and that does not include us...(for most people anyhow)

Does he know what the word NO means? 

I personally would try to set him up to nip me on the elbow, forearm, or fist a 100 times in one day...but, I bet he would stop after 2 or 3 tries....hard to say what I would do exactly, dont know the dog, and I am sure me and you are much different people...

Hard to say though, did he nip you because you moved too fast, or for going after whatever he dropped? that is something else to think about...


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

JOby is 1000% correct
any teeth on human should be a NON starter
hard part is how to get there now maybe ?? 

i've rescued a lot of dogs (but no more for me) ... 
when you first got it, sounds like you probably gave it what you thought it "deserved" after it's "troubled past", rather than what it earned after you got it
- i pretty much isolate a rescue til they start doing what i want and coming to ME for anything and everything .... no love at all ... they get that pretty fast 
- as long as they are healthy i really don't care about their past


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

but i WOULD like to hear the exact details of how to do a "CTJ" 
- always good to have another tool in the box
....from anyone who uses it successfully 
that technique is always coming up and i still don't get it


does it have anything to do with a hard leash correction (i'm a slack/pop/slack guy) or is the Jesus part more involved than that ?
- are there other items involved ?
- tone of voice important ?
- should the dog make the connection that YOU are the lord ??
- do you mark first ?
- should it be a one time "revelation" ?
- what if they have "seen the lord" and still repeat the bad behavior, like how this dog seems to have been described ?

probably just another thing i don't "get" cause i'm not good at reading dogs yet and just a sarcastic old fart ??


----------



## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

My working bred sheepdogs have never nipped at me, or shown any inclination, regardless of what I am doing. My BC has inherited from his line a very specific place on the hock that he will occassinally nip a recalcitrant ewe on but never on me
.
The one pup I did have that nipped me was on of my cattle dogs that I do not let near my sheep. I soon stopped her by letting her know with my voice, or stopping completely what we were doing and she soon got the idea that she was not to teeth my flesh. She was allowed to sink her teeth in to her tug and found that was quite a good way of redirecting her. She now reserves her teeth for the tug and is a very good agility dog.

The running by the side idea could work. Possibly once you start training and developing a realtionship with the dog thing will improve.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

it may not take a CTJ moment, doesnt sound like it.....but who knows. maybe a forceful voice is enough...

It is really hard to say anything about the hows or the whats. Have no clue about the dog, except what Vicky describes, which could possibly be flawed, for a number of reasons...have no clue how Vicky handles her dogs. any advice could be flawed, no one is there...

Depending on a few factors, if I was inclined to use anything physical with THIS dog, I would probably use whatever body part the dog tried to nip (the forearm, elbow, or fist) and pop him in the face with it, as he tried to nip it, coupled with a strong NO!, see how that went...

Then maybe actually let him bite my forearm and snatch him up by his collar or his skin on his neck/face and shake him, or put him up against a wall, or choke slam him on the ground...or choke the dog out...all accompanied by verbal NO.

if any of these was warranted...really depends on the dog though, an 8 month old rescue mini-aussie probably does not need that...

really hard to say though, dont know the dog, wasn't there, and dont know Vicky...

I would not recommend this course of action, because it might cause Vicky to get hurt, or might mess the dog up too much....who knows, there are a lot of variables...dogs are all different..

for the record I had a rottie once that loved to "herd" me around, would nip and grab at my ankle, when I got up to go somewhere...I hardly ever did anything about it, I thought it was cute...she also would grab my wrist when I came in the door and hold it and pull me to the couch so I did not forget to pet her..I also rarely did much about that, because I thought it was cute..I also used to let her grumble and growl at me, that was cute too..but she also KNEW that I was LETTING her do it, and would cease immediately if I relayed the information that I was not in the mood for "cute" at the time...


----------



## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

Rick it wasnt Sam that dropped something it was the puppy across the room who was going to play with one 
SAm is not my first rescue by a long shot since I am a foster home for aussie rescue. I know not to baby them. I have had herding dogs for 35 years and never has one nipped at me or even tried to herd me or my kids. I was told he did this from information left by his first owner when he dumped him at the pound and yet the little stinker was on good behavior for several weeks and he never did it to us. And I do not tolerate any kind of biting, nipping or even a lip curl from my dogs directed at me and it doesnt matter if I pick up their food bowl while they are eating or take away a bone they are chewing on. That includes Sam. 
of my shoes I leave by the backdoor. I had told Indy to drop it which he did and I jumped up to pick it up when Sam nailed me. That fast movement.
Sam knows the word NO. Sam is not vicious. You can do anything with this little guy that is why this seems out of character for him. When he first did this I immediately jumped on it with a verbal NO and gave him a command to sit or down. I have to wonder how this started with him and why it wasnt corrected then. I am not sure what else to do and so here I am. I will fix this if it is the last thing I do but I want to do it right. A friend suggested scruffing him like the mom would-has anyone tried anything like that? Meanwhile the NO stops him in his tracks as does a look "The Look" my husband calls it. I will start running with him on a leash to see if this helps. And I will try to remember not to jump into anything without noting Sam's location lol.
And I do think he has great herding instincts. Sam can herd two rabbits into their room without losing one every night. They might not be ducks, sheep or cows but those two rabbits are fast and sneaky and he has learned to anticipate their every move to avoid losing them under a chair or sofa. You have to see it I guess to know he herds.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Vickey none of what you just said really matters much in this scenario..

the fact that he is nice, not vicious, if he can herd or not herd...

He knows the word NO correct? which I take to mean he will stop what he is doing at the time, but maybe NOT stop doing it at a later time...this is where some form of correction can come in handy in most situations...whatever that may be for you and the dog...

Sara has given you a reasonable course of action to attempt, not what I would do personally, but could be fine...problem is no one but you knows the dog, and yourself...so who can say what to do really?

shoot a video of it...might shed a little light on it..  take one for the "research" team..


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Joby ... roger that .... pretty good ideas and imagination when called for
and only Vicki knows that
...but if you choke em out, they hardly have a chance to see the lord before their whole life flashes in front of em and they grey out 

Vicki ... that's a more descriptive iamage .. agree no need for the CTJ as of now
fact is he sounds like a pretty perfect dog for a rescue you just got; so i'm a bit confused unless you are a real perfectionist 
- what do his eyes and tail tell you b4 he nips ? is he looking at you or the target ? quiet or vocal ? does he pounce or lunge ?


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

rick smith said:


> Joby ... roger that .... pretty good ideas and imagination when called for
> and only Vicki knows that
> ...but if you choke em out, they hardly have a chance to see the lord before their whole life flashes in front of em and they grey out
> 
> ...


I rarely if ever resort to physical "hands" on things...but biting me is one of them...this is just "nipping" which is biting, but is a different class than a dog that looks at you, sizes you up, and comes for you...or snaps at you out of aggression....that MAY get a variation of a CTJ moment, whether with electricity or physical manipulation, depending on a lot of things..

this dog would probably just be taught that uncomfortable things WILL happen, if the behavior persists...whatever that would be..most likely a pop in the mouth with whatever he tried to grab.off the top of my head.....rinse and repeat as neccessary..
but again who can say what will work for this pup and Vickey...without being there...

I am sure she could also use commands and rewards to prevent it and over time the dog would probably learn not to do it. either way I would force the issue, and get the dog to try to do it often. tell the dog whatever (leave it, down, sit, whatever) , and proceed to move very quickly all around the dog, and correct it for not complying...or if you like getting nipped, withold reward..that will work over time as well...most likely...


----------



## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> this dog would probably just be taught that uncomfortable things WILL happen, if the behavior persists...whatever that would be..most likely a pop in the mouth with whatever he tried to grab.off the top of my head.....rinse and repeat as neccessary..
> 
> .


As I read this thread, I was thinking to myself; they are making this much harder than it has to be. Then the above. All I can say is, Amen, I completely agree. I've mentioned before, I have few hard fast rules, one of them is; you don't bite the hand that feeds you. 

DFrost


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

David Frost said:


> As I read this thread, I was thinking to myself; they are making this much harder than it has to be. Then the above. All I can say is, Amen, I completely agree. I've mentioned before, I have few hard fast rules, one of them is; you don't bite the hand that feeds you.
> 
> DFrost


Plain and simple!


----------



## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

Let me clarify why I wrote about herding. I thought his action was related to herding because he resembles a border collie or heeler biting at a cow's hind legs. I wrote that he wasnt vicious otherwise so it would be understood that this behavior is not an aggression problem and occurs only with a quick movement or action.
SInce he is an aussie there is no tail. He makes no sound. He just jumps up and runs after the mover and nips at the heels of your shoes. I can walk all over no problem-I can get up from a chair and walk off no problem. Its only if you do either in a fast way. And yes Sam is nearly perfect and I would just let this go as cute because I am not a perfectionist, but if he were to do this to a guest in our home and if he were to put a rip in their pants or if he nipped a bit too hard there could be a problem. 
SO I set him up and was ready to act. He was sleeping on his bed on the floor and I was in a chair. I jumped up, jogged across the floor and my husband ( my co-conspirator) informed me here he comes so I whirled around and sprayed him with water and yelled no loudly and in a not nice tone of voice . Stopped him in his tracks=he was really surprised. I waited an hour and tried it again. He raised his head but didnt pursue. I tried a couple more times and no nipping. Might need to repeat this but so far so good. Should this not fix it I am going for scruffing him.

I do not tolerate dogs that nip, bite or wreck my stuff. My dogs have to toll the line here. They get the best I can give them and I expect them to respect me, my family and my home.
Thank you all for your input.


----------



## Lisa Brazeau (May 6, 2010)

Hey! Nicely done, Vicki.


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

sounds like a winner ... 
make sure right after you stop him in his tracks, you then immediately give him a simple no brainer OB to perform and party him so there are no issues that might slip in from getting water blasted 

i always try to follow up a hard correction this way ... works for me


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

David Frost said:


> As I read this thread, I was thinking to myself; they are making this much harder than it has to be. Then the above. All I can say is, Amen, I completely agree. I've mentioned before, I have few hard fast rules, one of them is; you don't bite the hand that feeds you.
> 
> DFrost


Exactly!!! For the most part, I'm into positive reward training but biting the hand that feeds you is a no-no. She's tried the "no" before the behavior. He obviously doesn't get it. Given what she has said, it sounds easy enough to resolve.

T


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

rick smith said:


> but i WOULD like to hear the exact details of how to do a "CTJ"
> - always good to have another tool in the box
> ....from anyone who uses it successfully
> that technique is always coming up and i still don't get it
> ...


See Vicky's post.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> See Vicky's post.


SO a squirt with a spray bottle is a come to Jesus moment now


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> SO a squirt with a spray bottle is a come to Jesus moment now


 I wouldn't have used a squirt bottle but chances are what was more important was her demeanor--i.e. she meant it. But some dogs hate water and it was enough to stop him and probably is just as effective along with her demeanor to be as aversive as a scruff shake. The CTJ level is whatever is effective for that particular dog. I would bet in body language and tone, she communicated to the dog that the nip party is over.

T


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I wouldn't have used a squirt bottle but chances are what was more important was her demeanor--i.e. she meant it. But some dogs hate water and it was enough to stop him and probably is just as effective along with her demeanor to be as aversive as a scruff shake. The CTJ level is whatever is effective for that particular dog. I would bet in body language and tone, she communicated to the dog that the nip party is over.
> T


I sorta see what you are sayin....
Try that one next time a dog tries to eat you, Rick...


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> I sorta see what you are sayin....
> Try that one next time a dog tries to eat you, Rick...


This little dog is nothing compared to what you guys deal with. She said she could point her finger and say no and stop him. You spray one of yours with water and you might piss them off or they wouldn't even notice. The mini aussies I've met are pretty soft and more given to flight.

T


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Joby...
i'll pass 

the only tool i carry 24/7 that i could squirt at a K9 is NOT what i would want to present to a dog and it's not packed with a quick release so i couldn't get to it fast enuff even if i wanted to 

goin Xmas shopping .... for myself ... every day is Xmas for the mutt; plus he bit a kid today :-(

was at the handicapped school and decided to go to the petting zoo ... bad idea .... nice friendly little goat baby came up to him and he snapped at it ... now he knows there is another use for a blast hose tug

kind of a CTJ moment, but mostly for the kids watching .... handler error and will go back again tomorrow - but alone this time


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

rick smith said:


> Joby...
> i'll pass
> 
> the only tool i carry 24/7 that i could squirt at a K9 is NOT what i would want to present to a dog and it's not packed with a quick release so i couldn't get to it fast enuff even if i wanted to
> ...


I saw a dog bite a camel on the lip....was wondering exactly what my friend was trying accomplish, making his gsd lay down so a camel could mouth him....LOL


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

rick smith said:


> goin Xmas shopping .... for myself ... every day is Xmas for the mutt; plus he bit a kid today :-(



Biting Baby goats doesn't count as "biting a kid" despite the name being the same. Lucky you don't live in the US. You'd have the
AR freaks all over you for posting that ;-)


----------

