# How young to start??



## J. Hunter Allred (Mar 10, 2008)

Ok, so I'm new here. I've been unable to find any local dog sport folks as the Schutzhund club that was once here apparently disbanded. My dog is just shy of 11 months old. I've been working with building his prey drive, and teaching basic obedience (sit, down, heel, come, track, on and offleash) and he knows the command to bite the puppy sleeve I have (its like his crack, I'm not even sure why he wants the sleeve so badly). That being said, after finding and reading posts in the forum, I fear I've done things wrong, or at least differently. First, I didn't plan on really training hard until he hit a year old and just planned on building his drives any way I knew how. Secondly, I've been correcting him for months now. Thirdly, I'm not sure how dominate I should be over him, but I probably lean on the over-dominate side (former USMC, I'm sure it made me biased towards discipline). To make sure he gets good low impact exercise he swims a good 5 hours a week. Am I going about this all wrong? I find myself being perhaps overly concerned I'm screwing up because I have zero experience in this area. I seem to keep reading "Don't do X or it will destroy the dogs drive", and to make it more frustrating there seems to be a good deal of conflicting information out there. Whats a guy to do? What sort of problems may I have inadvertently caused myself (just a lack or reaching the dog's full potential?). Your thoughts?


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## Eros Kopliku (Jan 30, 2008)

I don't know what you are trying to do with your dog, but if you plan on doing protection work, I would say that, as a newbie, you are more likely to damage the dog than if you did nothing at all. Take it from a fellow newbie. You should be able to find a club in your state or neighboring states. Even if you may only be able to attend once or twice a month, at least you'll imprint the correct foundations.


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## J. Hunter Allred (Mar 10, 2008)

Eros Kopliku said:


> I don't know what you are trying to do with your dog, but if you plan on doing protection work, I would say that, as a newbie, you are more likely to damage the dog than if you did nothing at all. Take it from a fellow newbie. You should be able to find a club in your state or neighboring states. Even if you may only be able to attend once or twice a month, at least you'll imprint the correct foundations.


What sort of things damage a dog?


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## Will Kline (Jan 10, 2008)

Hunter, alot of people differ on what they consider the "right" age to start a dog in protection training. There are a bunch of posts listed where all of your questions are addressed. Just spend a bit of time reviewing past posts and you will learn a ton of things and get a feel for what the prevailing schools of thought are with respect to your goals.


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## Alex Corral (Jul 10, 2007)

Aside from searching on this forum, there are a lot of videos you can order and learn from. It could be cheaper as well than driving a long distance to a club.


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## Eros Kopliku (Jan 30, 2008)

J. Hunter Allred said:


> What sort of things damage a dog?


I'm sorry if the following will sound vague. If you have no experience in helper work, then you are likely to damage the dog. I think, agitation and helper work is more of an art than a science so you'll probably not find formulas and laws as every dog is different, but you will find general guidelines.

The benefits of training in a club are great. There are members in my club that have been training dogs for longer than I have been in this world. Every weekend, I learn new things. I think videos are okay for obedience and tracking, but I don't think a video can make competent in reading a dog in protection work.

Lastly, I have been around SchH for less than two years; I'm still a newbie so take that in consideration when reading my posts. 

Good luck.


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## J. Hunter Allred (Mar 10, 2008)

Eros Kopliku said:


> I'm sorry if the following will sound vague. If you have no experience in helper work, then you are likely to damage the dog. I think, agitation and helper work is more of an art than a science so you'll probably not find formulas and laws as every dog is different, but you will find general guidelines.
> 
> The benefits of training in a club are great. There are members in my club that have been training dogs for longer than I have been in this world. Every weekend, I learn new things. I think videos are okay for obedience and tracking, but I don't think a video can make competent in reading a dog in protection work.
> 
> ...


Would you say the same applies for just prey drive protection work? I've never put my dog in defensive drive or made it any more than a game with him.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

We start our pups at club from the start. (7-8 wks)
If you use motivational, marker training there is no stress on the puppy.


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## Eros Kopliku (Jan 30, 2008)

J. Hunter Allred said:


> Would you say the same applies for just prey drive protection work? I've never put my dog in defensive drive or made it any more than a game with him.


I hope I'm not stepping outside of my status bounds with this answer.

I guess it would depend upon your definition of prey drive protection work. If you have read and watched substantial material on how to build prey drive with a ball or a kong, you're probably okay doing that. However, work with tugs, jutes, bite-pillows, and puppy sleeves--though they are prey objects--is definitely not something I would mess with.

I hope this helps.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

The damage may depend on the dog. A high drive strong dog is much more resilient than a low drive moderate dog. If your dominance over the dog had caused him to be punchy cowering this is not good. He will need his confidence built back up. The way I train Schutzhund I promote and build drive and desire then I try to manipulate and teach rather than comply what behaviors I want. Only when the dog knows what he is supposed to do and disobeys then the use of compulsion is used. Now depending on the dogs temperament and hardness dictates what the level of the verbal and or physical corrections will be needed. 
I would stop trying to do bite work with him. This not for you to teach especially being a novice on your own. Instead get a bite pillow or a tug or rag and just play some tug with him keep it short and fun don't play to long. Make sure he always wins the toy during the play that session don't take it from him see if you can make him bring it to you. Make desire and confidence and drive end the session before he is done and still hot. Food and toys are the two greatest training tools you will have. If your dog doesnt care for either it will be though. 
You should mention where you live there could be a club near by that you may not know about and someone here could help.


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## J. Hunter Allred (Mar 10, 2008)

Mike Scheiber said:


> The damage may depend on the dog. A high drive strong dog is much more resilient than a low drive moderate dog. If your dominance over the dog had caused him to be punchy cowering this is not good. He will need his confidence built back up. The way I train Schutzhund I promote and build drive and desire then I try to manipulate and teach rather than comply what behaviors I want. Only when the dog knows what he is supposed to do and disobeys then the use of compulsion is used. Now depending on the dogs temperament and hardness dictates what the level of the verbal and or physical corrections will be needed.
> I would stop trying to do bite work with him. This not for you to teach especially being a novice on your own. Instead get a bite pillow or a tug or rag and just play some tug with him keep it short and fun don't play to long. Make sure he always wins the toy during the play that session don't take it from him see if you can make him bring it to you. Make desire and confidence and drive end the session before he is done and still hot. Food and toys are the two greatest training tools you will have. If your dog doesnt care for either it will be though.
> You should mention where you live there could be a club near by that you may not know about and someone here could help.


I found some local club emails and started emailing them six months before I got the dog... never gotten a response. I read on here they are now defunct, and they aren't listed on the USA site anymore anyway. He doesn't cower or anything like that. I do have a bite pillow thing, and he is always game for playing with anything and eating anything. I've mostly worked on obediance and making him find hidden food with his nose. I haven't actually put on the sleeve in a few months, but I know that part (protection I mean) needs to start soon, which is why I'm desperate to find a helper and/or an experienced trainer. I by chance ran into guy who has 2 GSD's and has been in Schutzhund stuff for a long time (I showed him this board the other day) and he was also looking for someone local as he moved here not so long ago and seems to be in the same boat as me, so hopefully between the two of us we can either find or start a local group.


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## Alex Corral (Jul 10, 2007)

.....and so the question still remains.... Where are you?


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## J. Hunter Allred (Mar 10, 2008)

Alex Corral said:


> .....and so the question still remains.... Where are you?


lol sorry. I live in Charleston SC. Thought I had mentioned it already


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

if you don't have a club it would be worth your while to find a local who has titled a few dogs. For a few bucks he might help you or tell you who to go to.

In Phoenix there are at least a dozen people that could be contacted in the absence of a club. Look up the winners of the past local club trials, it can only help get you on the right path. And just because there isn't a club it doesn't mean there aren't guys that get together and train dogs.

There are four working dog clubs in the Phoenix Metro and even though I meet twice a week with the Rottie club I still train almost every day with guys from other clubs. Once you figure out who to contact it won't take long for you to figure out who the top notch dog men are in your vicinity.

Good Luck.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Bob Scott said:


> We start our pups at club from the start. (7-8 wks)
> If you use motivational, marker training there is no stress on the puppy.


I agree with Bob as we do the same. I have a litter of Bouvier puppies and plan to keep two. The training will start at 7-8 weeks. I will have them in a crate facing the training field so they can watch the big dogs.
Tracking can be done in a scent pad or short line, a few yards with diced hotdogs. Obedience is very basic and nothing but motivation for food and verbal rewards.#-o


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

What speaks against starting later?

I did a lot of tugging, etc. with the pups but took them to biting training (GSDs) at 9 months, resp. 7 montsh.

I tugged at home - hung bite rolls up for them to hang on to on their own (saved crating when on the phone).

They both now show potential - good, calm grips, aggression, drive switching no problem.

If the dog's got it - it's got it?????

Do they really "check it out" when they are taken at an early age to watch? I can imagine it "gets them going" We took our younger one with us and kept him on the lead nearby but he was more interested in everything else at the time, even singed his ears on the grill!! 

I'm not speaking out against starting early but asking whether this is a must.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

You can do anything you want. We use the same process with Labs. The older dogs train and the younger ones watch and are imprinted. I also do it with the Border Collies and sheep. The young collies watch the trained ones and then they want to do. This isn't training, its imprinting.

Puppy bitework is done with a cotton rag and the puppy wins. Leerburg even has vidoes on foundation bitework.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I'm not saying taking the pups to watch is a bad thing - I'm just asking if anyone thinks it's completely necessary. OK, if I'm going to the club anyway, I take Junior but does this make him better? Does he realise what's really going on. I know that pups in the wild watch what Dad is doing but is this true of our dogs and biting?


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