# The minds of dogs



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I'm putting this on here because I perceive that i may have read some threads wrongly and I may have been read wrongly, too.

A mind, in my mind, is as descrbed as in Wikpedia 

A *mind* is the complex of cognitive faculties that enables consciousness, thinking, reasoning, perception, and judgement—*a characteristic of human beings*.

So, if my dogs had had or have minds, they might have left or will leave the proverbial homestead in the search of something better suited to them.

As it is they all stayed or are staying because they haven't got the intelligence that it takes to live independently of me.

However much I love and have loved my dogs, I do not respect their intelligence. I respect them as animals who cannot think for themselves. I deem this as my responsibility to act in their best interests.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I'm putting this on here because I perceive that i may have read some threads wrongly and I may have been read wrongly, too.
> 
> A mind, in my mind, is as descrbed as in Wikpedia
> 
> ...


I believe dogs capable of most of the characteristics of the mind you describe as humanistic and in varying degrees. As for intelligence, mine could choose the life of the woods beyond our property or they can choose to continue to exist in our social pack order where I provide food, shelter, heat in the winter or air conditioning in the summer. Those along with the other amenities doesn't make answering the call of the wild and independence all that intelligent. First comes the desire. In most cases we breed for and select for dog's affinity to man and to succumb to the control of man. I think any animal has the abiity to think. Do they always make the best choices? No. Human children come to mind. Intelligence varies in all animals, as does the desire for independence. I think we are acting as much in our own best interests as the animals we keep.


T


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

I think we give ourselves far too much credit. We pretend we have free will and intelligence that decouples us from the stimulus-instinctual response pattern, however if you really look at the species we are equally a slave to our instincts as a dog, a cat, a mouse, or an amoeba. 
As Socrates once said!:
"τούτου μὲν τοῦ ἀνθρώπου ἐγὼ σοφώτερός εἰμι· κινδυνεύει μὲν γὰρ ἡμῶν οὐδέτερος οὐδὲν καλὸν κἀγαθὸν εἰδέναι, ἀλλ' οὗτος μὲν οἴεται τι εἰδέναι οὐκ εἰδώς, ἐγὼ δέ, ὥσπερ οὖν οὐκ οἶδα, οὐδὲ οὄιμαι· ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μή οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι εἰδέναι"


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## lannie dulin (Sep 4, 2012)

You suppress your dog’s freedom to show you the intelligence of trying to go out and find something better. Leave the gate (you use to control them) open and see if they attempt to venture out and find something better


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## Jeffrey Eggenberger (Jan 3, 2013)

I feel what seperates us from the animals is mostly our center for language. With language we become great builders, able to use what has been invented in the past to create today. Animals have what we have lost, the ability to intuit and be so sensitive to the environment that they feel everything that is going on around them.

Is one better than the other? I think Dog and Man complement each other and make a great team!!


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I'm putting this on here because I perceive that i may have read some threads wrongly and I may have been read wrongly, too.
> 
> A mind, in my mind, is as descrbed as in Wikpedia
> 
> ...


I honestly do not understand this point of view.

Do you think that dogs and all non-human creatures do not have minds? What does that make them? Mindless stimulus-reaction blobs of mobile cells?

I think my dogs show me all the thinks wiki describes as a mind _"consciousness, thinking, reasoning, perception, and judgement"_. How else do I account for the things they do - silly, clever, naughty, surprising, quirky, idiosyncratic? How do I ascribe personality to my dogs without thinking there is something beyond just genetic makeup and base instinct? 

As far as leaving home... plenty of strays end up in shelters that have taken that exact path. 

Conversly, my long ago housemate's dog was supporting herself nicely on restaurant garbage as a stray, avoiding her original owner, but chose to be his dog when he took her in. During her life, she roamed the city on her own daily, and always returned 'home' to wherever he happened to live. She was never leashed if she was out with anyone, but stayed close and would usually wait outside a store or cafe for you. Nobody ever took the time to try to train her to do anything, she was one of those dogs who figured it out. How is that not an expression of a dog with a very clever mind?

I can't help but think my dogs have minds... that they think and feel and experience the world in ways similar to me, yet uniquely dog like, even if they don't have the vocabulary to articulate that to me.


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

The question is not if dogs have a mind or not,the question is can they think or not.
The answer is no,dogs can only respond to things using former experiences.
Some things they respond to because of instinct,just like we do.
I was going to open a new thread on a topic similar to this but this will do also i guess.
I guess the opinions vary wildly on this topic but when it comes down to it you will have to admit they can not think and therefore can not reason.
One of my dogs was kind of pushy when being fed and my girlfriend asked me if i could do something about it,now the dog will only start to eat when i tell her OK.
I can do the whole alphabet,saying, ak uk , ck ek or whatever but when i say ok she starts to eat.
Can she spell?Of course not ,it is somekind of tiny little signal i give her without me actually knowing it.
I try on purpose to fool her but but she is smart and waits for the right signal.
She is responding but not thinking.
Are we training dogs or are they just doing a circus act?Can they do what we don't teach them?
Looking forward to seeing the different opinions.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I think once again you have to define "think" or "reason." To that end there is some sort of study that came out a couple of years ago regarding dogs' ability to reason. I believe that some have the capacity for thinking/reason, whatever you want to call it. 

T


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> However much I love and have loved my dogs, I do not respect their intelligence.


 
I understand your opinion but I also feel a little sorry for you.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Hunter Allred said:


> I think we give ourselves far too much credit. We pretend we have free will and intelligence that decouples us from the stimulus-instinctual response pattern, however if you really look at the species we are equally a slave to our instincts as a dog, a cat, a mouse, or an amoeba.
> As Socrates once said!:
> "τούτου μὲν τοῦ ἀνθρώπου ἐγὼ σοφώτερός εἰμι· κινδυνεύει μὲν γὰρ ἡμῶν οὐδέτερος οὐδὲν καλὸν κἀγαθὸν εἰδέναι, ἀλλ' οὗτος μὲν οἴεται τι εἰδέναι οὐκ εἰδώς, ἐγὼ δέ, ὥσπερ οὖν οὐκ οἶδα, οὐδὲ οὄιμαι· ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μή οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι εἰδέναι"


+1

Minus the socrates part. not sure what he said there.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Dave Colborn said:


> +1
> 
> Minus the socrates part. not sure what he said there.


We are all on the same spectrum of reasoning. Just some species do so more often or are able to reach greater capacities of abstraction. All animals have been thinking for themselves long before humans got here anyway. The sad part is the capacity for reason we have and yet the failure to use it properly. A nice quote:

"DR. HILL has recently asked the question, “Can dogs reason?” The following analogy has always appeared to me to be a sufficient reply. In ordinary circumstances, few human beings make use of their sense of smell; to excite it, the odour must be fairly strong, and also unusual. It may be regarded as probable that few dogs make habitual use of any power of inference, but have only vague sensory impressions, to which an almost automatic response is given. Yet under sufficient stimulus, they may perform acts involving an exertion of a considerable amount of “thought.” Whereas, then, dogs rarely “think,” but frequently make use of their delicate sense of smell, human beings seldom make use of that sense, but constantly exercise their reasoning faculties."


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

As a better illustration as our slavery to instinct....
"A woman's test is material. A man's test is a woman...if a man could **** in a cardboard box, he wouldn't buy a house." - Rabbi Dave Chappelle.

Everything man has ever done... Science, sports, art, music, spearing mammoths. All can be traced back to getting laid, perpetuating his genes... It's merely an clever illusion we are motivated by anything else lol. Likewise women are motivated by securing resources and protection so they can pass on their genes.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

DAMN! I hope I'm smarter then an amoeba. Asexual reproduction doesn't sound like fun at all!
I believe the ability to think is relative to how advanced the particular species is and their ability to learn with at least some form of reasoning beyond instinct. The amoeba, for instance will move away from an irritant. That's pure unadulterated instinct, if you can even call it that.
Certain animals such as a chimp, Killer whale and others have learned different hunting methods from just watching another do the process. Only certain groups of these particular animals pick up these abilities and science has recognized what particular pod, group, etc an individual has come from by these abilities.
The first chimp that discovered the ability to use a stick to get termites out of a hole had to process this somehow. If some sort of thinking wasn't involved then it would never have advance. If it were a part of hard wiring then ALL chimp groups would have picked up on it. Just a thought!


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

jack van strien said:


> The question is not if dogs have a mind or not,the question is can they think or not.
> The answer is no,dogs can only respond to things using former experiences.
> Some things they respond to because of instinct,just like we do.
> I was going to open a new thread on a topic similar to this but this will do also i guess.
> ...


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

jack van strien said:


> The question is not if dogs have a mind or not,the question is can they think or not.
> The answer is no,dogs can only respond to things using former experiences.
> Some things they respond to because of instinct,just like we do.
> I was going to open a new thread on a topic similar to this but this will do also i guess.
> ...


I think "mind" and "thinking apparatus" are the same.

I have wondered whether the fact that the dog has worked its way into our lives has had in fact a "negative" fact on our relations with it. We want the dog to be part of us, so we project a "thinking" into it.

A dog does not have a mind - a dog cannot think or reason otherwise I could play chess with it.

There are a lot of unanswered questions, obviously:

Why did my dog who also pulled with my other towards the forrest (longer walk) tend to pull towards the right to the shorter walk as he became older and stiffer in joints?

It's not always easy to understand but to assume that dogs have minds capable of reasoning is above me.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Gillian said
"A dog does not have a mind - a dog cannot think or reason otherwise I could play chess with it".


I look at it as different species have different levels of thought/thinking. 
A person with a mental disorder may have a limited ability to think/process/learn a particular situation yet another person will easily win a game of chess. IQs in the human species vary considerably. 
The dog that pulls for the shorter walk had to have had some sort of processing going on. 
Yes! It's one of life's wonders but I do look at it as some sort of mind processing to make a decision. I'm in no way any sort of scientist but I still view it as a thought process in spite of how primitive or undeveloped it may be. 
Some chimps learns to use a tool. Can it learn to play chess? Not hardly but that's just different levels of thinking ability. Some just have a more primitive level.


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## Jane Jean (Sep 18, 2009)

I'm just beginning to read this, but I think it is so far so good: http://brianhare.net/the-genius-of-dogs/


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

jack van strien said:


> The question is not if dogs have a mind or not,the question is can they think or not.
> The answer is no,dogs can only respond to things using former experiences.
> Some things they respond to because of instinct,just like we do.
> I was going to open a new thread on a topic similar to this but this will do also i guess.
> ...


*smart* 
/smärt/

*Adjective*
Having or showing a quick-witted intelligence.

*Noun*
Intelligence; acumen.

After owning several crafty escape artist dogs experimenting and figuring out some interesting things, I am inclined to think that dogs are capable of thinking.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Hunter Allred said:


> We are all on the same spectrum of reasoning. Just some species do so more often or are able to reach greater capacities of abstraction. All animals have been thinking for themselves long before humans got here anyway. The sad part is the capacity for reason we have and yet the failure to use it properly. A nice quote:
> 
> "DR. HILL has recently asked the question, “Can dogs reason?” The following analogy has always appeared to me to be a sufficient reply. In ordinary circumstances, few human beings make use of their sense of smell; to excite it, the odour must be fairly strong, and also unusual. It may be regarded as probable that few dogs make habitual use of any power of inference, but have only vague sensory impressions, to which an almost automatic response is given. Yet under sufficient stimulus, they may perform acts involving an exertion of a considerable amount of “thought.” Whereas, then, dogs rarely “think,” but frequently make use of their delicate sense of smell, human beings seldom make use of that sense, but constantly exercise their reasoning faculties."


You are preaching to one of the choir. We can read and "think" and it makes us appear not only higher up the food chain, but smarter. really, we can make a better guess where the reward will be based on facts and we have more facts because we can read things better than dogs. Either a win or an answer or something we value is what we are looking for. The reward in each human is different, but you could appear altruistic, and your reward IS helping people. You could get value out of that. Find me a human that does something on his own that he doesn't value and I'll show you where the value is what he does in either avoiding correction or working towards reward...

Prison doesn't work because each prisoner has a reward and a correction. Those are never identified on intake and they are not the same for all prisoners. It's also why people have a varying degree of succcess in life. If you are imprinted poorly, or have bad genetics, you won't be as successful as someone who had some early training to drive them harder or _different._ Doesn't mean you can't train yourself once you realize this, it just means you may not do detection for Loganhaus.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJM4EBuL82o


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

I do think humans may have a more evolved mind. Capable of doing complex things. but I think that does not negate that dogs do in fact have a mind. And more over they may be free of the curse we have. A dog can be entertained by a stick or a tennis ball. We need telelvision, concerts and complex games like chess. 

They have the ability to reason. I have seen a dog figure things out, without prior experience. So that myth is busted. That implies that dogs will not explore ( behaviors and enviorments)...which is complete and udder bullshit. 

Also the amount of stimulus has nothing to with if a dog can control himself. The access to the reward does. It may take longer for the dog to explore a new behavior with heavy stimulus but the dog will not die trying. They will try something else.

Behaviors that are not reinforced are likely to go extinct and behaviors that are reinforced are likely to occur again. We are bound to these laws just as a dog is.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

James Downey said:


> I do think humans may have a more evolved mind. Capable of doing complex things. but I think that does not negate that dogs do in fact have a mind. And more over they may be free of the curse we have. A dog can be entertained by a stick or a tennis ball. We need telelvision, concerts and complex games like chess.
> 
> They have the ability to reason. I have seen a dog figure things out, without prior experience. So that myth is busted. That implies that dogs will not explore ( behaviors and enviorments)...which is complete and udder bullshit.
> 
> ...


 
I think our minds our similar to dogs as described by you. (I really like the way you said "may have an evolved mind". sort of indicates you believe it, but are certainly open to other interpretations. Or that it may have changed, not evolved but devolved based on perspective.)

"A dog can be entertained by a stick or tennis ball."

" We need television, concerts and complex games like chess."

"Behaviors that are not reinforced are likely to go extinct and behaviors that are reinforced are likely to occur again. We are bound to these laws just as a dog is."

We like TV because we have it and convince ourselves it's good, sit around watching it in the comfort of home, with family and friends, safe and secure. Reward. A person with an abusive parent isn't likely to enjoy TV had they been beaten to change channels. 

This is why I believe violent movies are SO dangerous. Killing, popcorn and laughter....

I think we are sad in a way compared to dogs, trying to mask our unhappiness by changing stimulus to cover up what's wrong. Just be at peace where you are and how you are. If not, make a significant change. 

On the other hand if you can't get a dog to do something, we mask their fear the same way. With the ball.....


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