# Firehose hidden sleeve?



## Nick Hrycaj (Mar 30, 2014)

I have spoken with a few handlers that ran multiple military and police dogs in America over about 25 years (ending about 5 years ago).

They suggested using two layers of old fire hose to fashion a hidden sleeve as realistically as possible.

QUESTION: Does anyone still do that? Any issues anyone can find? I like the concept in that it allows for puncture protection but still allows the decoy to feel the pressure, is light weight, and is very easy to hide.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Nick Hrycaj said:


> I have spoken with a few handlers that ran multiple military and police dogs in America over about 25 years (ending about 5 years ago).
> 
> They suggested using two layers of old fire hose to fashion a hidden sleeve as realistically as possible.
> 
> QUESTION: Does anyone still do that? Any issues anyone can find? I like the concept in that it allows for puncture protection but still allows the decoy to feel the pressure, is light weight, and is very easy to hide.


a purpose made hidden sleeve can do the same, but fit better... what would be the need in using a hose?


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## Nick Hrycaj (Mar 30, 2014)

I can get it right now, and for free


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## Stefan Schaub (Sep 12, 2010)

and it really hurts!!!!


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

I don't mind spending a few extra bucks to ensure my safety or comfort. I've seen what happens when hidden sleeves go bad. lol


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Hunter Allred said:


> I don't mind spending a few extra bucks to ensure my safety or comfort. I've seen what happens when hidden sleeves go bad. lol


I concur


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## Brian Smith (May 26, 2013)

Having done this before I would advise against it. The puncture marks on my decoy looked nice though.


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## Nick Hrycaj (Mar 30, 2014)

Brian Smith said:


> Having done this before I would advise against it. The puncture marks on my decoy looked nice though.


Point taken. Thanks for the imput


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

there are a few different types of hose out there, I have used them a handful of times, as have others here.

I do really love my RA-12 though... just the amount of bite-ability and "ouchiness" (learned this word here) for me....


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## Jim Duncan (Jan 19, 2009)

Hunter Allred said:


> a purpose made hidden sleeve can do the same, but fit better... what would be the need in using a hose?


The advantage to using "fire hose" or even a "philly wrap" is that the dog doesn't recognize the equipment. Using something that the dog has not been exposed too is more realistic and avoids the whole equipment issue, which is the purpose of a hidden sleeve. If you use a brand new hidden sleeve made out of jute or bite suit material, you may surprise the dog once. After that the dog recognizes the odor and it's simply training with equipment. Using a "hidden sleeve" that has been worn multiple times will be recognized by the dog pretty quickly. The fire hose works, but does hurt and will leave bruises. Neoprene or leather gauntlets work well underneath to avoid punctures. 

JMO FWIW,

Jim


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

good points Jim

people overlook the sense of smell and over emphasize the "looks" of equipment; hidden or not
- which also applies to the people that the dog trains with
- harder to make training realistic than we might want to admit, but it should still be a training goal priority and always better than repetition


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Also the motions a person does who is wearing "equipment" is different than someone who is not. Even hidden equipment because no one really wants a bite on a non protected area. We telegraph so much even when we try not to.


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## Nick Hrycaj (Mar 30, 2014)

Sarah,

The telegraphing is what I am trying to avoid. You say it right that nobody wants bit without protection. Silly them right?

In general, I luck out that my "decoys" are mostly other cops that are used to some degree of pain in training and who try to be macho so therefore will deal with the so called ouchiness associated with the hose approach. The bottom line, as I am hearing it, is the training needs to include lots of various equipment worn by a variety of helpers in a variety of locations.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Sarah Platts said:


> Also the motions a person does who is wearing "equipment" is different than someone who is not. Even hidden equipment because no one really wants a bite on a non protected area. We telegraph so much even when we try not to.


handler can also use short lead or collar to put dog where they want them.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> handler can also use short lead or collar to put dog where they want them.


Yes, but that would just make the target choice more limited. Most, if not all, folks can't help telegraphing when they are wearing hidden equipment.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Sarah Platts said:


> Yes, but that would just make the target choice more limited. Most, if not all, folks can't help telegraphing when they are wearing hidden equipment.


yes, that is why there are hidden suits, even though they are not really all that hidden.

muzzle is always nice as well. no bite equipment.


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> yes, that is why there are hidden suits, even though they are not really all that hidden.
> 
> muzzle is always nice as well. no bite equipment.


 
No Ray Allen catalog?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Brian McQuain said:


> No Ray Allen catalog?


=;


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## David Stucenski (Mar 29, 2008)

I agree a combonation of muzzle and firehose drills is best for police dogs. As mentioned in previous posts. Hidden sleeves still have either jute or suit material. They smell it!!!!!!!8)


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## Jim Duncan (Jan 19, 2009)

David Stucenski said:


> I agree a combonation of muzzle and firehose drills is best for police dogs. As mentioned in previous posts. Hidden sleeves still have either jute or suit material. They smell it!!!!!!!8)


Yes, they absolutely smell it and from a pretty good distance. I agree that muzzle work added in is a great addition.

*people overlook the sense of smell and over emphasize the "looks" of equipment; hidden or not
- which also applies to the people that the dog trains with
- harder to make training realistic than we might want to admit, but it should still be a training goal priority and always better than repetition*

I also agree that the dog recognizes people that it often trains with. We try to keep training realistic. We were doing a "traffic stop" scenario the other day where the driver fights and runs after standing outside the vehicle for a while. The dog had no clue it was a training scenario until the decoy said something and the dog instantly recognized his voice. 

Dogs are often smarter and figure things out faster than we can give them credit.


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