# Table Training, article by Ed Frawley.



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

This is an article written by Ed, on his opinions of table use. 
I dont think I have disagreed with anything Ed has written as much as I disagree with this article. It is directed at the use of the table, but does not really discuss anything remotely similar to how or why most people use tables, as in anything a table is just a tool, and can be mis-used. 

In this case, Ed's assessment of the methodology behind the use of the tables, and the results from table use, is pretty far off base. He basically labels it as "fear" training...Almost reads to me like Victoria Stillwell giving her opinions on the use of the "shock collar" in dog training, talking about it, in its absolute worst form, and how morally wrong it is, and then making it seem like that is how the tool is actually used by everyone...

His example is made by talking about his friends account of what happened when someone put a doberman with major nerve issues on a table and scared it until it shit itself. I have never seen anything close to this.

http://leerburg.com/tabletrain.htm

I am a member on another board, and someone posted a question about "table" and "bite box" use......even though it was admitted he only saw table training on "bad" youtube videos, (a bunch supposedly). I asked the person to give links to some of these terrible table training videos that are all over youtube, and the person has not given any links to date. I have scoured youtube for table training videos and have never seen a video like this person described, there may be one out there, but I cant find it......my guess is that he probably read the above article by Ed.


_
deleted post from another board_


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

_"I have never seen anything close to this."_

I have, years ago. I hope never to again. I have read in PMs and on old defense table threads that others here have too.

Who would post video of it? 


I would have entitled the article "Defense Table Training." I didn't learn until a few years ago (here) about other uses that have nothing to do with what Ed is saying. 

I don't mean to try shut down discussion at all. Just wanted to say that yes, I've seen what Ed describes, and at least a few others here have too.

That there were many very different uses was news to me, and I was a little embarrassed that the use I had seen was what I had concluded was the usual or general use.





PS

We have a rule about bringing other forum threads into this one.  I have to delete that forum question from another board.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Connie Sutherland said:


> _"I have never seen anything close to this."_
> 
> I have, years ago. I hope never to again. I have read in PMs and on old defense table threads that others here have too.
> 
> ...


gotcha Connie, I was not sure about it as I posted it. Figured it would get taken care of, if inappropriate...

Ed mentions the use of the round table (low table) as well in this article, this article in my opinion is a slam against table use in general, he does not say "defense table"...

It is pretty clear when reading this how he feels about the use of tables, high or low, to me, and even if he is only talking about the high table, that is not how the table is used by most people, and not the results that most people get with their dogs. Again, reads real similar to me when hearing Victoria Stillwell's stance on the use of the "shock" collar.

I would agree 100% with the article if Ed was actually talking about how not to do table training, while explaining the correct ways to use them, instead of slamming the entire method and basically making up his own theories on how or why people use tables, by using some terrible examples, and stating that "fear" training, is the reason that tables are used.

*Is there anything in print, that you know of, where Ed talks in a more favorable light about table training if done correctly, or clarifies what he meant to say in this article, or backtracks off of what he said in this article,(maybe due to a better understanding of it?) that would lend itself to the thinking that I maybe should have worded the title differently?, do you know if his opinions have changed on the use of the tables?*


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

_Is there anything in print, that you know of, where Ed talks in a more favorable light about table training if done correctly, or clarifies what he meant to say in this article, or backtracks off of what he said in this article,(maybe due to a better understanding of it?) that would lend itself to the thinking that I maybe should have worded the title differently?, do you know if his opinions have changed on the use of the tables?_



I meant if I were writing the article, I'd rather have called it Defense Table Training. (Didn't mean your use of the term.)


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Connie Sutherland said:


> _Is there anything in print, that you know of, where Ed talks in a more favorable light about table training if done correctly, or clarifies what he meant to say in this article, or backtracks off of what he said in this article,(maybe due to a better understanding of it?) that would lend itself to the thinking that I maybe should have worded the title differently?, do you know if his opinions have changed on the use of the tables?_
> 
> 
> 
> I meant if I were writing the article, I'd rather have called it Defense Table Training. (Didn't mean your use of the term.)


OOPS..my mistake...but again, he mentions the low table as well, and basically states how the table is used, and why, in a very narrow and uninformed way, even stating the entire theory is based on Fear training....again, not unlike Victoria Stillwell talking about the use of "shock" collars...leaves the same impression on people that read the article I think. Like any tool they can be misused, but that is not what Ed is saying in his article at all...he is admonishing the use of the tables entirely, and basically misinforming people on the uses of the table...

I am pretty sure that Ed has not changed his opinions on table training, I do not KNOW if he has, but I have never seen anything from him that would lead me to think he has...has anyone else?

For everyone else, here are some vids of the terrible (High) Defense table in use..that is only used for fear-based training, according to Ed's article.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cANHegvWLqc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yC99fB3CL6k&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PL3C1E325BE7A39434

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z55M6velLzs&feature=plcp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxW7mHSf_g0&feature=autoplay&list=PL3C1E325BE7A39434&playnext=2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xI_xGQKbYIY&feature=plcp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8luCUf6_mo

If that is such a terrible tool to use, I can only imagine how much worse the archaic looking "Bite Box" seems to some people...chaining the poor dog in that little box and forcing him to bite...:roll:


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

In the early 1990s there were some really ugly video tapes of table training going on at the Gene England place. A lot of it may have been out of context, but it was pretty ugly, and the USCA and AWDF officials at the time were pretty concerned about the bad publicity.

But of course we all know that table training is OK, really for guys who have been around for a while and can't see the dogs on the floor over their pot bellies.


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## kenneth roth (Jul 29, 2010)

If you want more aggressive fightdrive,i hear people talk about box training, table is used for like basic trainin,working on grips etc


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## Sally Crunkleton (Jan 13, 2012)

I see where some who abused, or made up their own ugly purpose for the table just turn most people off. 

After reading Ed's article again, it does seem he is against it all together, but some of the problems he pointed out sound to me like what you'd expect from younger dogs with no confidence yet built. Too much too soon type of issues. I may be off base, just my interpretation. 

Every dog is different, but at a year old mine would have never gone on the table...but now he is sure of himself and has no reason to operate out of "fight because there is no flight".


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Jim Engel said:


> In the early 1990s there were some really ugly video tapes of table training going on at the Gene England place. A lot of it may have been out of context, but it was pretty ugly, and the USCA and AWDF officials at the time were pretty concerned about the bad publicity.
> 
> But of course we all know that table training is OK, really for guys who have been around for a while and can't see the dogs on the floor over their pot bellies.


Jim

There was a LOT of talk about the ugly videos taken at Gene England place. However I've never seen them or talked to anyone that actually saw them in person. Molly Graf claimed to have copies on one of the old lists but when confronted for proof she could NOT provide it. I went to two regional seminars (old Rocky Mountain/Great Plains) where Gene did table seminars. Every dog (including my own) that was put on the tables (square and round) progressed. I have no doubt that Ed Frawley saw some BAD table work, unfortunately he based his OPINION on that instead of investigating further :-(


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

I saw table training once in person at Mr. Englunds place. I have to say at first I was very impressed the dog was aggressive in a manner I had never seen him show.( I knew the dog from a pup). The dog was apparently finished and this was a demo. The dog was going ape shit. Forward. and looked serious. This was with the "man" about 15 ft away. They pile sleeves, threw them around....dog never even looked at them. I thought wow!!!! Till....I saw the man come within 8 feet of the dog. The dog then, started to try and wrap his body around the pole he was chained too. He never took his eyes off the man, nor did his aggression slow one bit. But he was defintly trying to hide or use what little protection the pole provided. Now since the dog was finished they did not really do any "training" they just showed what it could produce. But when I saw the dog wrap his body around the pole.... You do not have to be a genius to know that whatever the dog had been exposed to previously was not pleasent for the dog at the least. Whether it was awful, abuse....or horrific. I could not tell you cause I did not see anything of the sort. But for me, it's not emotions I wish to have induced in my dog. I did not see a brave dog. I saw dog, that when the decoy was a far... the dog was saying hold me back, hold me back. But when the man got closer the dog continued to try and bullshit his way out of it. being unsure that it would actually work.

The next thing I saw that made me question the value of the training....was transfering the dog to an applicable situation. Like in a blind. If the dog was crazy like he was on the table. he frantically tried to bite the sleeve. not in an effort to fight but to get to saftey. Then there was some correcting for biting, and hitting the dog in the face with the stick. The dog now was simply trying to beat the stick and taking pot shots. I have to imagine for a dog that was just taught to bite to turn the pressure off, now is getting pressure for biting has to be a bit confused. And the next thing I saw, when the dog did finally get his B&H it looked like every other dog I had seen in a blind.

That was my experience and assessment.. I very well could be wrong about my preception of the training. Whatever "by-products" I saw from the training defintly did not seem like something I wanted my dog to have.


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## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

So is the table training supposed to be used for teaching the H&B? and if so how is it more advantageous than doing it on a back tie?


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## Robley Smith (Apr 20, 2012)

I had read the Frawley article and some of the threads on his forum about the subject before I started hanging arround with the club I have been, and was surprised to see the table used there, and was very suspicious of it. From what I have seen so far, it was used in a couple different ways for specific reasons, which though explained to me at the time I woudn't feel competant to try and explain or defend. None of those times did it look like a horrible or very frightening experience for the dog. Dog's who I knew had been on there before hupped right up, excited and ready to go. I am sure it could be abused though.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

The table is a tool. Just like a prong collar or E- collar. It can be abused. Only a well versed trainer should use any of the above. If you don't know what you are doing much less have a plan and purpose don't attempt using them.

Did anyone see anything like Ed spoke of in Sally's video? PS : Sally's dog is mature to handle what we are showing him. Any dog can be run, even off a table BUT that's not what we are here for is it? We are here to get the most out of our dogs , fairly and humanly.


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Jim
> 
> There was a LOT of talk about the ugly videos taken at Gene England place. However I've never seen them or talked to anyone that actually saw them in person. Molly Graf claimed to have copies on one of the old lists but when confronted for proof she could NOT provide it. I went to two regional seminars (old Rocky Mountain/Great Plains) where Gene did table seminars. Every dog (including my own) that was put on the tables (square and round) progressed. I have no doubt that Ed Frawley saw some BAD table work, unfortunately he based his OPINION on that instead of investigating further :-(


I saw the tapes in person. Not good publicity.


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## Jill Lyden (May 25, 2011)

Sounds like the same kind of warnings I hear about certain horse training "tools". They should only be used by professionals, but really if you're a professional then you don't need to and likely don't ever use those techniques.


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

I agree with Jerry Lyda, it's a tool and obviously not all dogs should be on it I hope Stefan Schaub jumps in on this one he has practical experience on "HOW" it should be used. Personally I've used it & not just for protection & I guarantee you I would never allow a dog to be freaked out on it. I started young dogs on it in obed. building their confidence (if needed) & comfort. If used correctly their is no reason for a dog to become abused, tortured, etc. There are videos of Stefan using it on YouTube plus several others (trainers) again it's how it's used or misused!


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## Sally Crunkleton (Jan 13, 2012)

Jerry Lyda said:


> The table is a tool. Just like a prong collar or E- collar. It can be abused. Only a well versed trainer should use any of the above. If you don't know what you are doing much less have a plan and purpose don't attempt using them.
> 
> Did anyone see anything like Ed spoke of in Sally's video? PS : Sally's dog is mature to handle what we are showing him. Any dog can be run, even off a table BUT that's not what we are here for is it? We are here to get the most out of our dogs , fairly and humanly.


I am not sure all on this thread saw the video I unknowingly stirred up sh*! with. I am pretty certain those that saw it agree there was nothing bad going on and the dog was obviously not scared. You and I have had many talks on dog who operate out of fear, and that is not how we motivate.


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

Hi Sally just finished your other thread, keep stirring girl LOL! Seriously Joby explained it very well there. Thanks Joby!


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Jim Engel said:


> I saw the tapes in person. Not good publicity.


The edited tape that showed the dog "strangling to death" or the original that showed the dog fine when he was pushed back up on the table? You can't believe all video tape Jim, especially when its provided by someone with an agenda or an ax to grind. 
I saw Gene work 20+ dogs at one seminar. The man forgot more then most people will ever know.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Sometimes reading these threads on table training is like watching an old, bitter, married couple who hasn't got over past hurts, fight. Nothing ever gets settled, they still see things the same way, no one tries to see anything differently and despite the wasted energy expended they hang on tighter to whatever it was that they weren't really squabbling about to begin with.


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## Sally Crunkleton (Jan 13, 2012)

Steve Estrada said:


> Hi Sally just finished your other thread, keep stirring girl LOL! Seriously Joby explained it very well there. Thanks Joby!


Ha! I am just here to learn, and stir a little it seems 

...and yes, Joby's explanation was great.


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## Stefan Schaub (Sep 12, 2010)

the table is a tool.if you understand how to use it,perfect!!if not it sucks like everything in dog training.
i have use the table over years.with every kind of dog for protection work. many of these dogs have go on world teams and bps. would they done that with out table, sure why not.but it is for me the easiest way to train.handler is pasiv,the dog is all time in the right position.the dog have a different dominant behavior because of his position.i make bark and hold, out and guarding on the table.i work young dogs also on the table.latest after the second session the dogs pull to the table,jump on it and get crazy to start.

Agent Wolfsheim BSP/Worldteam plus Justin pendel Bach and Bonni Inner Tal
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7bpU0EC1Eg

Optivas Garcia Worldteam
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWydN6KfFLI
Dog with bark problems and out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5GnuNDtUak&list=UUsvLgeDTJdyBp6OU1gv__1w&index=4&feature=plcp

Leon complete trained on table
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ogykuYuvrM&list=UUsvLgeDTJdyBp6OU1gv__1w&index=4&feature=plcp


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## Stefan Schaub (Sep 12, 2010)

Leon on table
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRtDC4keKg


Leon after i left from germany,make up your own mind about bark and hold.

http://www.saslapiave.it/Leon-von-der-Staatsmacht.htm

same dog different training style, different look


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Stefan, 

Could you explain in more detail, why you believe the table to be beneficial if the dog has the drives? 

If a dog is loaded with active aggression, why does it need it amped up through the use of a table/whip? 

How do you observe the dog's natural drives nowadays if they are mostly trained on tables and stimulated by cracking the whip? 

Serious question.


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## Stefan Schaub (Sep 12, 2010)

Tiago Fontes said:


> Stefan,
> 
> Could you explain in more detail, why you believe the table to be beneficial if the dog has the drives?
> 
> ...


explain me in your eyes active aggressions


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Stefan Schaub said:


> explain me in your eyes active aggressions


A dog who naturally wants to fight and dominate the helper. Doesnt need too much stimulation to get high in drive... 
This is why I asked how you looked at a dog's natural drives.


Thanks for your time


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Tiago Fontes said:


> Stefan,
> 
> Could you explain in more detail, why you believe the table to be beneficial if the dog has the drives?
> 
> ...


Tiago....Right ****ing on!!!!


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

A dog with enough aggression is not why , WE, use the table. 

Rick asked some great questions on Sally's post. Read my last answer to him about why and when a table would be used.


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## Stefan Schaub (Sep 12, 2010)

Tiago Fontes said:


> A dog who naturally wants to fight and dominate the helper. Doesnt need too much stimulation to get high in drive...
> This is why I asked how you looked at a dog's natural drives.
> 
> 
> Thanks for your time


a dog does not naturally fight the helper,we teach him the fight ,we teach him behavior,barking for prey is never natural,biting a sleeve is never natural.it is a behavior!!!some dogs have extreme high prey drive, with enough frustration we can bring the dog into a kind of show aggression. also that is a teached behavior. for that is the table perfect.

a dog with natural good drive responds better on the work.


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Stefan Schaub said:


> a dog does not naturally fight the helper,we teach him the fight ,we teach him behavior,barking for prey is never natural,biting a sleeve is never natural.it is a behavior!!!some dogs have extreme high prey drive, with enough frustration we can bring the dog into a kind of show aggression. also that is a teached behavior. for that is the table perfect.
> 
> a dog with natural good drive responds better on the work.


 
How do you evaluate natural drives?


Thank you for your time.


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## Stefan Schaub (Sep 12, 2010)

you see it with every thing,how they catch a ball,how they go behind the ball or toy.for a good dog it does not matter what you throw away.he want it,he search it. the rest is training,special in all our bite sports.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Nicole Stark said:


> Sometimes reading these threads on table training is like watching an old, bitter, married couple who hasn't got over past hurts, fight. Nothing ever gets settled, they still see things the same way, no one tries to see anything differently and despite the wasted energy expended they hang on tighter to whatever it was that they weren't really squabbling about to begin with.


You should be a marriage counsellor holy crap!!  that was good and quietly close to home LOL:razz:


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Stefan Schaub said:


> you see it with every thing,how they catch a ball,how they go behind the ball or toy.for a good dog it does not matter what you throw away.he want it,he search it. the rest is training,special in all our bite sports.


 
Aside from that, I like to see a dog showing on his own, guarding tendencies of its property around 6/7 months old. I also want to see a natural problem solver in different environments... I also like to see a natural resilience to adversity coupled with dominance and possessiveness...

Sure it can be trained, but it's better when you just see it manifesting itself and then you mold it, through training.

IMO, a dog with these traits does not need much whip stimulation or table training... Hence why I asked, how do you evaluate natural aggression, resilience to adversity and natural drives. 


Thanks again for your time.


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## Stefan Schaub (Sep 12, 2010)

all is trained. why should a dog go into a building to get the bad guy out. because we trained him that. it does not matter how old all what matters is the quality of a dog and a proper training.table,wip,prong,e collar,box,stick and all other things are tools to train a dog. on the end it is only important that it works. you really think someone cares if the world winner from last year have sit on a table for his bark and hold or if he get trained with 5 e collars.same in police or military,who cares how the dog was trained.he have to do his job and nothing more. i do not know g.england,have only hear that he trains with table.people go there,pay many and are happy.so he is not so wrong with that what he is doing and that over many years. to many people talk to much,argue to much and on the end with all there knowledge nothing works out. i have respect for everyone who titel his dog,do not care if rescue,police,schutzhund or ring.these people show that they have follow a line,some with success some with less. special here in the us is the problem that people visit this weekend seminar x than four weeks later seminar y and than 4 weeks later z.on the end they have seen 3 different things,with 3 different trainers and with 3 different minds.we call these guys seminar hoppers,you see them everywhere but never as a starter on a big trial. they have thousand questions and thousand great minds but not one straight line to work a dog.


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## Richard Ramirez (Sep 6, 2011)

Great observations Stefan!!!! To me it boils down to knowing your dog. Then you can put together training that builds on the dog's drives and temperament. The table is just another tool that can be used effectively or not. The same with e-collar,pinch,etc.


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Stefan Schaub said:


> all is trained. why should a dog go into a building to get the bad guy out. because we trained him that. it does not matter how old all what matters is the quality of a dog and a proper training.table,wip,prong,e collar,box,stick and all other things are tools to train a dog. on the end it is only important that it works. you really think someone cares if the world winner from last year have sit on a table for his bark and hold or if he get trained with 5 e collars.same in police or military,who cares how the dog was trained.he have to do his job and nothing more. i do not know g.england,have only hear that he trains with table.people go there,pay many and are happy.so he is not so wrong with that what he is doing and that over many years. to many people talk to much,argue to much and on the end with all there knowledge nothing works out. i have respect for everyone who titel his dog,do not care if rescue,police,schutzhund or ring.these people show that they have follow a line,some with success some with less. special here in the us is the problem that people visit this weekend seminar x than four weeks later seminar y and than 4 weeks later z.on the end they have seen 3 different things,with 3 different trainers and with 3 different minds.we call these guys seminar hoppers,you see them everywhere but never as a starter on a big trial. they have thousand questions and thousand great minds but not one straight line to work a dog.


I agree with the training part and following a straight line to work a dog... 

What I am trying to say is that you see so many well trained dogs, that its hard to evaluate the natural drives and sometimes the only way to really test the dog is to take it out of its training routine and throw unexpected pressure and scenarios at him. 


Regards


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Tiago Fontes said:


> I agree with the training part and following a straight line to work a dog...
> 
> What I am trying to say is that you see so many well trained dogs, that its hard to evaluate the natural drives and sometimes the only way to really test the dog is to take it out of its training routine and throw unexpected pressure and scenarios at him.
> 
> ...


Interesting!! But if ya practice marathons and your asked to do a sprint yeah sure you can run but ya going to be crap at it????????????????????????

If its all trained why should a dog know what the hell to do when you put something on it he hasnt seen before?? And i know they should bring nerves and aggression etc but surely we cant be expecting a stella performance?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

If the dog is gonna be pure sport, no need to do anything else, unless it strikes your fancy.

That being said I am sure that someone like Stephan has a fairly good idea of the dogs drives, and I would probably bet money if he is gonna be breeding a dog, that he also tests the dogs outside of the sport environment as well.

I think the out of the box stuff is not really testing drives persay, but moreso character traits.


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Joby Becker said:


> If the dog is gonna be pure sport, no need to do anything else, unless it strikes your fancy.
> 
> That being said I am sure that someone like Stephan has a fairly good idea of the dogs drives, and I would probably bet money if he is gonna be breeding a dog, that he also tests the dogs outside of the sport environment as well.
> 
> I think the out of the box stuff is not really testing drives persay, but moreso character traits.


 
Perfect explanation.


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