# Hips Curious



## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

I have asked this question on another board a while ago but did not get many opinions.

My Male Pedro will be 9 years old in November and still jumps all rings jumps at Max if I ask him to, I don't often.

He has been bred a couple of times in Europe and here in the states with no problems with hips noted in his offspring.

The question: What value would there be in putting him through an x-ray process now? if I were to use him as a Stud dog.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

In your breed does having a passing OFA grade or equivalent rating make the resulting offspring more saleable? With GSDs it makes a difference, but we have a lot of health issues as I know you know.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> In your breed does having a passing OFA grade or equivalent rating make the resulting offspring more saleable? With GSDs it makes a difference, but we have a lot of health issues as I know you know.


I would say Yes to some extent, people want hip ratings I am just wondering what more that could mean over performance in this case. It is not the cost but the danger in the process for me.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Danger for sedation is really pretty minimal, especially nowadays. I know everyone's got the "my cousin's best friend's sister's boyfriend's roommate's dog died under anesthesia" story. My in laws knew a friend of theirs that had a golden retriever pup who died under anesthesia during its spay surgery at 6 months, so they were terrified to get a fractured dead tooth removed out of my former dog. I finally convinced them it would be fine and it was. 

If you're really concerned with a dog who is getting slightly older, even though they may just do it with an injectable sedative where the dog is still awake just very very relaxed, you can ask the vet to use an IV catheter, so that way they've got a way to push fluids if they have to. IV catheters are really pretty important for general anesthesia as the patient gets hypotensive under general anesthesia, so the kidneys and liver don't perfuse as well. But since they'll likely use an injectable sedative and not general anesthesia (but you may want to ask) since it just takes a few minutes, I honestly wouldn't be real concerned with it. I think the info that you get from it and those who research pedigrees and bloodlines as we try to figure out this multifactorial disease would be helpful.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Danger for sedation is really pretty minimal, especially nowadays. I know everyone's got the "my cousin's best friend's sister's boyfriend's roommate's dog died under anesthesia" story. My in laws knew a friend of theirs that had a golden retriever pup who died under anesthesia during its spay surgery at 6 months, so they were terrified to get a fractured dead tooth removed out of my former dog. I finally convinced them it would be fine and it was.
> 
> If you're really concerned with a dog who is getting slightly older, even though they may just do it with an injectable sedative where the dog is still awake just very very relaxed, you can ask the vet to use an IV catheter, so that way they've got a way to push fluids if they have to. IV catheters are really pretty important for general anesthesia as the patient gets hypotensive under general anesthesia, so the kidneys and liver don't perfuse as well. But since they'll likely use an injectable sedative and not general anesthesia (but you may want to ask) since it just takes a few minutes, I honestly wouldn't be real concerned with it. I think the info that you get from it and those who research pedigrees and bloodlines as we try to figure out this multifactorial disease would be helpful.


Thanks you for your .02 Much apreciated. I know a friend in Cali, we talked and she saiid it would be no big deal.

Still, any buyer expectations aside, what do you think the probablility of a dog like this having "bad" hips?


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

His hipratings could be a bit worse than he was younger, you probably see some athrose. but I think you -and the pupbuyers- can see through the ratings. Maybe he had a OFA good at 3 yrs and a OFA fair at 9.
An experienced vet can see if it's nature or 'cause he worked hard on the x-rays.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

If the issue is the anesthesia, you can most likely find a vet experienced enough to get it done anesthesia free if you so choose. At least in my neck of the woods, vets like that are easy to find, they do grip sport and service (police) animals, they get very good positioning, even when handling the toughest of dogs. 

I agree with Selena, a 9 year old dog with Fair hips is a great rating, but recent conversations have left me with more questions. If you are questioning is there any reason to get it done considering his athletisim, there was a time when my knee jerk answer would have been yes, always (if breeding). Now I'm not so sure. In the case of dogs like Malinois and Dutch Shepherds, I'm not so sure if HD when present effects them the same way as GSDs because of the conformation differences. Perhaps the ratings needs to be looked at differently in some breeds instead of the "one-size-fits-all" approach?

Lisa Maze would be a good one to bring into this discussion.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Here's my thoughts (keeping in mind I haven't had radiology yet, I believe that's next semester, woo...). Hip dysplasia is hip dysplasia. I'm not talking about quibbling over OFA Excellent versus OFA Good. I'm talking about the head of the femur doesn't have coverage by the acetabulum and where you can also have calcification to the point where the joint is like rubbing sandpaper together. I also think it is also an excellent diagnostic tool to see how an older dog is doing purely from the stand point of needing supplements or pain relief from years of activity which stresses those joints (protection sport, agility, and field trials are all tough on them). This will give the dog a better quality of life as it ages as some dogs appear very stoic, but they can be in considerable discomfort (and the opposite can be true: dysplasia or osteoarthritis can yield considerable distress, even if it appear mild). Some dogs can be mildly to moderately dysplastic, but be fine when they are young and have the muscle mass to muscle them through. 

So here's my bottom line. This goes for dogs of any breed, I don't care if it's a Malinois, German shepherd, or a powder puff Chinese crested. Not getting it done, _particularly_ in working breeding stock, is sticking your head in the sand and your fingers in your ears and saying "la la la, don't have a problem cause I can't see one and I can't hear you!" If you guys wish to breed like that, knock yourselves out. That was fine 50, 500, 5000 years ago. But when you know better, you do better. I think smart consumers aren't going to go along with that either. I sure wouldn't. [-( 

Now, Kyle, that being said, what is done is done and like I said earlier, I think it would be very helpful to pedigree researchers to get a good history on your dog's lines if it was done. In addition, using it as a diagnostic tool for him to make sure he isn't going to need additional supplements or pain meds as he ages from having a dog that has had a long career that is known to be stressful on the joints. I'd prefer to see a happy, energetic Mal who still wants to play ball at 12 years old, not one limping around in pain and on Rimidyl or Deramaxx. But that's just me.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I agree, except: Is what's good for the goose maybe not always good for the gander? 

How about English Bull Dogs and Pugs? Isn't the incidence of bad hips much higher than GSDs? Yet does it effect their life span or abilities? I realize they are not working dogs but for instance in GSDs, even mild cases can cause limping. In the other direction, and if I remember correctly, I think Lisa has also mentioned mature dogs that might have mild dysplasia but function completely normally, even display high levels of athletisism. 

I am just questioning whether or not every breed is effected equally by the same degree of dysplasia. If not, then you wouldn't automatically dismiss a dog from a breeding program that has some degree of dysplasia. 

In this country, a lot of people will shy away from buying from dogs who's parents are both fair to say nothing of lower ratings. Is that necessarily appropriate in all breeds?


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

There are vets that will try to do the x-rays without anesthesia. Most of my corgis have been done without anesthesia. I would hope that any breeder would use it as a tool and that its not just a puppy selling issue. That said, I've had a he** of a time finding working line GSD breeders that OFA breeding stock across the board. There seems to be a huge reliance on the A-Stamp. All of our 10-12 year olds are out of solid 3-4 generation pedigrees and it shows as they are bouncing around the yard, playing tug and fetching a ball. Its all a risky gamble given polygenic traits but its a less risky gamble when the selection for hips/elbows has been done. 


Terrasita


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I see what you're saying. Different breeds because of artificial selection (usually for looks and not for performance) have different stances and conformations, I absolutely agree with that. But regardless, yes, hip dysplasia is hip dysplasia and here's why. Because we regrettably cannot ask the patients the relative amount of pain they are in, we go back to the point of some dogs probably having one or more of the following: 

1) a high threshold of pain 
2) stoicism and/or their drive carries them through the pain (wouldn't doubt it with a Mal!) 
3) they have the musculature in both the affected limb(s) and their core to literally help muscle them through, particularly when they are younger. 

For example, if you blow out your medial collateral ligament in your knee or if you have a herniated disc in your back, ceteris paribus, you're going to be in less pain and have a better prognosis if you've already got good muscle tone and you're in lean body condition. There are countless stories of superhuman feats performed in extraordinary circumstances with people with bone fractures and other severe injuries to rescues others, for example. But that doesn't mean the ACL isn't blown or the herniated disc isn't still not there or that they had a broken leg and three broken ribs, yes? One may not be showing the signs as strongly, but it doesn't discount the fact that they _are_ there.

The day that we start working pugs and English bulldogs (who are about the biggest train wrecks for health problems out there) is the day I'll be concerned. But those pug and English bulldog breeders have made their beds and they get to lie in it, along with their snorting, snoring, drooling, bug eyed dogs. Seeing an English bulldog even in basic agility is more of a novelty than anything, let alone them being competitive. And yes, English bulldogs and pugs are indeed the highest, according to OFA (though granted, these are only the ones submitted to OFA, not the ones where your vet takes one look at it and says you're screwed before sending it off):

http://www.offa.org/hipstatbreed.html


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I'm kind of thinking out loud here, and it's late, so forgive me if this is a stupid question, or makes absoloutly no sense, but here goes:

Let's say we have a 2 year old GSD who when xrayed had mild/moderate dysplasia. While the dog is young, am I correct in thinking the malformation of the hip isn't what causes the pain, it's the wear and tear from the way he moves that causes the bony growths,arthritis etc. which occur as he ages that cause the pain? 

If a different dog (Mali or Dutchie) had the same hip rating but is structured differently and moves differently might have less wear and tear and therefore less or no arthritic changes as he grows older? 

Or are the differences in conformation, movement, size, not significant enough to make a difference in how the disease progresses?

HEY - STOP LAUGHING!!!!! :mrgreen:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I think it's an interesting question.
At 2 yrs old my GSD Thunder was shown to have "moderate" HD. I've kept him active, fed the right supliments,etc. 
How early or if he ever shows problems is a constant thought in my mind. He shows absolutely no problems at 4 1/2. Is one of the smoother jumpers at club. I think if or how it developes later in a dogs life is as much about the dog's genetics as anything else. I've seen dogs with no signs of problems at 10-11 yrs old, yet on film should have been crippled. Other dogs with mild signs on film have to be put down at a young age because of to much pain, etc.
There is something else in a dogs genes that let this happen the way it does. Now we just have to figure out what that is.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I would worry about other things with your dog, but not hips.


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