# magen k9 israel - scenarios bite work and more collections



## sefi sahar (Dec 15, 2011)

here is some of our trainings 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmQ5iZu53v8&feature=g-upl

contains -
mostly bite work, air born strike training, suacide bomber detection training, trailing training, ship to ship strike hostage training and more.

enjoy


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Nice work! 

Keep on posting more videos. 


Regards


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## James Degale (Jan 9, 2009)

Fantastic training, keep up the good work. 

Can I ask, what type of coats do you think are better in the heat? In my experience, the light colored Mali's of slightly smaller build tolerate the heat better than the larger, dark colored GSD for example. What is you experience? Or do you find no difference.


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## sefi sahar (Dec 15, 2011)

Thank you both for your positive opinion.


About the coat - physiologicaly of-course the malinois has an advantage because of the color and I think the anatomy as well. They get hot slower and can get in shape easier.

All though of course when you dealing with high heat it's the dog heart (spirit not anatomic) and drive that count and when you got that dog in your hand it dosent matter what his color or his coat you just take it. its hard enough to find them as it is. To my opinion you find more better Mali mix than any other breed but that just my opinion.
Of course there is allways the dog health and shape condition and the handler that should supply him decent search time and decent rests.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Hi Sefi

Nice vid and training!

What mali mix do you use? GSD or dutchy?

Do you breed your own dogs or do you source them else where?

Thanks.


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## Jhun Brioso (Dec 28, 2009)

Very nice vid.. Thanks for sharing


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## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

Nice work!!


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## sefi sahar (Dec 15, 2011)

thank you i am glad you liked it.

brad idont know all the crosses in our mali mix but they are from knpv lines and sure thing there is some pitbull and probably some dutch in tham. we have few nice pure gsds aswell but they are rare.
we just got two puppys half gsd half mali mix and to our surprise we like tham so far (they are 8 months old).

we breed for ourself dogs that prove good on the field and have good genes. and buy from holland and a few from israel.

actaully we just planing kind of eurotrip at spring to find good puppys from breeders.

any recommendations any one?


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

sefi sahar said:


> thank you i am glad you liked it.
> 
> brad idont know all the crosses in our mali mix but they are from knpv lines and sure thing there is some pitbull and probably some dutch in tham. we have few nice pure gsds aswell but they are rare.
> we just got two puppys half gsd half mali mix and to our surprise we like tham so far (they are 8 months old).
> ...


 
Slovakian/czech Gsd brokers, NVBK malinois...................:-k


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## Jhun Brioso (Dec 28, 2009)

If your going to Holland, try to take a visit at Van Leeuwen dutchies. The owner Selena is a member here.


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## george herrera (Oct 24, 2011)

Very nice Vid! Keep sharing!

George


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## sefi sahar (Dec 15, 2011)

Jhun Brioso said:


> If your going to Holland, try to take a visit at Van Leeuwen dutchies. The owner Selena is a member here.



thank you very much iwill contact her.

thank you all for the nice response to the clip


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## Jhun Brioso (Dec 28, 2009)

sefi sahar said:


> thank you very much iwill contact her.
> 
> thank you all for the nice response to the clip


You're welcome Sefi...


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## Erick Herrera (Nov 29, 2011)

Very nice vid. Welcome and keep sharing


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Thanks for the videos, Sefi. Can you describe how you all train for multiple dogs on one decoy? Always found that rather neat.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Thanks for the videos, Sefi. Can you describe how you all train for multiple dogs on one decoy? Always found that rather neat.


Im interested in that as well! Mind sharing how you guys make that happen?


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## sefi sahar (Dec 15, 2011)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Thanks for the videos, Sefi. Can you describe how you all train for multiple dogs on one decoy? Always found that rather neat.



thats quite easy when you got good dogs non agressive towards dogs and controlled:

i will note the general stages, you can skip some of them accordingly to your dogs quality and hardness.

*puppys and young dogs*- somtimes we let them do bite work one next to each other (different hendlers diferrent toy, different helper ) and get them closer and closer as long as they relax untill they tuch each other the" round of victory" after the dog win the toy is very importent becuse the dog need to learn he can win the prey with no contest with another dog close to him. 
(uselly while they are still with their litter mates and mom they learn just the opposite.
dont do this too much. somtimes but not often when they work relax next to each other i let tham bite a toy that i can take a part to two peaces and give each one a round of victory alone. we praise correct bite work and calmness.

*mid stage- *a decoy with two sleeves or even two sleeves and a leg peace or two legs. handler for each dog with the leash on the dog . the decoy give tham bite togheter but serve each dog seperatly. calm work. each dog get to win with the sleeve in hes mouth.
the decoy slowly and gradeully get the dogs closer to each other untill they tuch each other during the bites. again the round of victory is critical and we praise calmness and proper bitework as the dogs next to each other. with good, strong decoy you can do this even with 3 dogs.
agression toward the other dog get corections.

*the suite*- again each handler take his dog by the leash and stay foot. than one by one we serve bites (on each side) and then get tham graduely closer to each other. we take the dogs off one by one.
with the handler holding the dog collar. alot of the work get done on the ground.
agression toward the other dog get corection. 

*first send on the suit -
*we send the dogs one by one each dog get another side of the decoy. *dont sed the dogs togheter in the first times!!! *after the dogs calm and work good togheter we send the second dog to the same side of the decoy but one by one. you can let the second dog handler come from close distance and "put" the dog on the suit with leash on next to the other dog. watch out so they wont acsidently bite each other while they "push".
*
coardinets the dogs during the send- *when the dog are ready and calm during bites we send tham togheter but in thefirst times we give one of tham a small head start so he get to bite first.
that way they learn to watch each other bite.
you beter do this stage with e collar on and ready to use. after a while we start send tham togheter at the same time. than we do all kind of scenarios.


*multiple dogs muzzel work* better be done after all the suite stages. with e collars and with leashes in the beggings.


hope you got it with my lame english if you have problems with that you can allways ask.

with all that said we useally start from suite and handlers with leashes on the dogs( just becuse we can and it is faster).


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Really cool! Your English isn't bad at all. Appreciate you sharing.


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## sefi sahar (Dec 15, 2011)

oh and a happy new year


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## sefi sahar (Dec 15, 2011)

you are welcome.

coardinets =coordinate

peaces = pieces 

tohgeter = together


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Fun stuff Sefi, should be nice to see some more from you. Not trying to steal you thread but I got to agree that more than one dog has a lot of advantages. I to enjoy seeing that being worked. This is a video of a buddy who wanted a try at playing decoy for the first time. His brother videotaped the session and then they sent a link to me. Im just posting for those of you who want to see more dogs working a decoy. Latter in the day we had three on him, most I seen was 5 on a decoy and I would not want to be the decoy. Im not a fan of the hard music, none of the dogs were LE or Military but my buddy calls everything a unit as you will see at the end of the video. My vocals or myself are not in the video, its all other people. If I was to pick and chose video of the session to post I don’t know if it would be the same as he picked I really didn’t think any of the day was going to be posted but anyway this is it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FJKt3ax8ng&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL


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## Alison Grubb (Nov 18, 2009)

Very cool video!
Thanks for sharing!


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## hillel schwartzman (Nov 9, 2008)

Excellent Thread....I like the practical apprehensions..I will use these vids as a learning tool for PSA. Which I train in..
Thanks again great stuff!!!!!!!


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## sefi sahar (Dec 15, 2011)

Chris first I am glad you liked the video.
I am also glad you posted your video.
I didn't liked the movie thou. The dogs in that film was not ready for that kind of unexperianced decoy and they where not prepared for that kind of stress sure thing not ready for both of Them together. i think This is the reason for they let go of the bite number of times and most of the time don't bite good and don't push. I would try a calmer decoy and stronger wins for these dogs and let Them bring the fight to decoy more and not the other way.
Or keep it simple with the new decoy and send them one at a time outside with not to much presure.
Hope I don't insulte you with my straightness.
Idid how ever liked the way they moved around the building for the decoy. We have a few clips where you can see more of multiple bite work il post them here if you like


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Thanks for your input, no insult at all that’s what I posted it for. The good the bad and the ugly. The dogs foundation is to not bite and hold. I know this goes against traditional “modern” bite work training but it’s the way they work. Actually these dogs are holding a great deal more than I would like to see. 
I do agree that there are benefits to using a calmer decoy at times, but I personally don’t see anything in these videos setting the dogs back? This day was not really planned out and just kind of happened. If I had to chose anything I think I might of changed the dogs being asked to do a bit much for a bit to long when tired. But I will admit I sometimes do this on purpose as well. 
If I had the actual videos of the session I would have likely picked other parts of the video and left some of what is online out, but I thought that would make for it to be that much more interesting for anyone to watch. Again you’re not insulting me but I’d like to hear more regarding your view. As for your other videos I think everyone on here would like to see more videos from everyone!


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## sefi sahar (Dec 15, 2011)

I have noticed your decoy switch hands for them a few times and i tried to keep an open mind about it (and iwill thank you if you can explain what alternativ bite work you do work with Them) all thou i prefer a dog that occupied the decoy and move consistenly to his dead side than one who let go and switched organs. But i refereed to the times the dogs leave because of pure presure that the decoy gave them I can give you the timelines if you want. 
I don't say that a dog shouldnt work throu this stress it sure does and more I just say that the dogs in the movie didn't and where probably not prepared for it.
Thank you for your open mind and your patience.


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## sefi sahar (Dec 15, 2011)

Leave = let go of the bite.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

I got to admit I did not really ever do anything but get a quick look at things prior to today. A time line with your opinions would be nice. I looked at it a few more times. The smaller Mali does at the beginning of the video. This dog is a bit less experienced than the DS, both these dogs have spent time together in the past. I will guess that the Mali was a little taken back by being on the same sleeve with the DS. They have both done bite work with other dogs but I would not say it is something either of them does often. At 2:15 I can see the DS letting go to re-target when by the wall. Its interesting you picked up on this, you got me thinking a little and looking at some older videos. 

Below is a video of the same dog a few years ago. Take a look at 4:40 min in when the dog is pushed into the wall. You can see it took the dog a bit longer to releasing and re-engage the target back then. I guess the best way of explaining the reasoning for this is the dogs self-preservation. That dog should let go when it sees/ feels the decoy is trying to swing, slam or push him into something such as a tree, pole, wall etc. Preferably even before the dog even gets close to the stationary weapon. 
The DS is my dog and I would like to tell you that he is a prime example of this kind of bite work but the reality is he has been spending way more time getting his belly scratched then he does training. I would prefer to see the dogs releasing and re-targeting much more frequently. With this in mind optimally the dogs should release under certain pressures and re-target. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTLjJ8AZFq0&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL 

I understand you train for bite and hold, but when you say “move constantly to his dead side” I don’t know if I fully understand? Do you mean that you would like to see the dog bite-hold and stay out of the decoys centerline? Meaning you don’t want your dog to stay in front of the decoy but would rather see him try and stay on the decoys side or even behind him? 
Sorry


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## sefi sahar (Dec 15, 2011)

in 2:14- 2:15 your ds leave the bite its in the same time when the chair fall down and untill the decoy give him the hand back he just wait. (maybe he trying to bite the leg you cant see clear but if he does he doing it badly). in almost all the film the ds dont bite so well do you teach them to bite full?
do you teach tham to push to fill the bite? i think you should. 

the younger dog like you said he let go bunch of times from pressure.

any way i liked your dog much more in the second movie. especeally the parts near the river. (not the bridge).
iwhould love to see him bite more passive decoy to see how he deal with it. and with frenchline suite.

yea you kind of got me right with the moving thing. i know that a dog that activate the decoy all the time and the right way is a safe dog, a dog that re target all the time expuse itself and his handler all the time.
i want my dogs to retarget just for another decoy and some times even not doing it.


about the static pressure near object do you think your dog can stay on the bite when its occour?


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

I see what your speaking of. Ideally would have liked to see him be a bit quicker on the re-target. But I am ok with him letting go as long as he stays active in the work and keeps the decoys attention.
 No these dogs are not in any way taught to bite deep or push in. There allowed to bite as evolution wanted them to. 
I actually prefer the biting style of the smaller one. Again ideally I would like to see him release and re-target more often. For the most part he should release and re-target when he does feel pressure. I know it’s not the norm but it just makes logical sense to me. 
I will admit it’s been a while since the DS did any work on a passive decoy. In all fairness neither of these dogs have had much bite work over the past year. Will try and get some video. Again I will admit, the DS is not a monster for passive work…. making all the reason that I should work it more. As you can see in some of the other videos the DS is more of a family guy. 
The little Mali will work a passive decoy till the sun goes down… and comes back up. 
As far as the dog exposing itself when releasing I don’t know if I agree? I have been the decoy for dogs that bite and hold and ones that release and retarget like crazy. I got to say the ones that ones that retarget take a lot more attention as the decoy. I have a few decoys that really don’t look forward to working the Mali. The little bastard goes for the feet and ankles or tries to shove his head up the jute sleeve. It is a concern when your in the suit. When the decoy has on him that a dog that bites and holds it’s almost relaxing compared to fighting a re-targeting dog. Obviously this is not a fact but just my opinion. 

I don’t fully understand the static pressure question? 

Still got an open mind?


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## sefi sahar (Dec 15, 2011)

Chris McDonald said:


> I see what your speaking of. Ideally would have liked to see him be a bit quicker on the re-target. But I am ok with him letting go as long as he stays active in the work and keeps the decoys attention.
> No these dogs are not in any way taught to bite deep or push in. There allowed to bite as evolution wanted them to.
> I actually prefer the biting style of the smaller one. Again ideally I would like to see him release and re-target more often. For the most part he should release and re-target when he does feel pressure. I know it’s not the norm but it just makes logical sense to me.
> I will admit it’s been a while since the DS did any work on a passive decoy. In all fairness neither of these dogs have had much bite work over the past year. Will try and get some video. Again I will admit, the DS is not a monster for passive work…. making all the reason that I should work it more. As you can see in some of the other videos the DS is more of a family guy.
> ...


you must have been standing decoy for passive dogs that made that impression on you. 
i dont want be sound arrigant but we operate a small team of 30 mans and dogs top our team have about 100 catches of suspects a year. most of them if not all involve hard core violence we incounter knives, clubs, firing arms, multy attackers, explosives devices, shockers etc in water, air, buildings, and the list goes on... we even faced one time an enemy k9 handler.
each case we investigate in thorough. our list of injurys and losts in the past 6 years is very short

please beleive me i am saying it just becuse i care: the way you train and operate your dogs put you and your dogs in unecesery danger becuse it will activate your decoy and encourage him to respond.
the only re targeting you need is from one decoy to another and you allways need the option of your dog to handle one guy while you take the other. there is a few other points like the push and the bite but its a long post already.

about my question i meant can you press him against a wall with out him let go.

any way nice dog (the ds) can you point his lines?
and very original work


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