# Dog evaluations



## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

This thread made me think about this...
http://www.WorkingDogForum.com/vBulletin/f9/schutzhund-psa-french-ring-46553/

How do you evaluate a dog or a pup? For yourself, or as a prospective club member, or for a particular purpose. How long do you spend and what kind of tests do you do?

If you were having your dog evaluated, what would you expect to see or have tested? 

If you were looking at a new club member, how much does the handler influence your decision? 

From the other thread... 
_When I was a member of a club, new dog/handler evaluations were not a formalized process. It was mostly "show us what you got" and getting to know the person a little, to make sure that their training goals were a match with the club's. _

There is a guy around here who will evaluate your dog for $250 and I've always wondered just what it is he does for that kind of money. Does he have some kind of standardized form and rating system? What kind of tests does he do? Do you then get to sign up for his very expensive training program? 

For me, if I was looking at a young dog or pup for myself, I just want to see a happy, confident dog with good drive and some heart. It's more a gut feeling of do I like this dog or not. Pretty sure my instincts are good - I did a rescue transport for a Malinois pup, and if I'd been looking for a pup, he never would have made it to his destination. He grew up and was sold to a police force. 

So, how do you evaluate a dog?


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## Jaidee Somero (Apr 2, 2015)

I have nothing to add, but I'll be following this thread!


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

leslie cassian said:


> This thread made me think about this...
> http://www.WorkingDogForum.com/vBulletin/f9/schutzhund-psa-french-ring-46553/
> 
> How do you evaluate a dog or a pup? For yourself, or as a prospective club member, or for a particular purpose. How long do you spend and what kind of tests do you do?
> ...


$250 to me seems like a lot. An evaluation really shouldn't take much more than 20-30 mins really, so at $250 that's good money if you can charge it and get it, I guess there is one born every minute. In my club I set it up a lot like a CGN, CSAU or simplified version of a IPO BH traffic test. We charge $45 as it ends up taking time away regular club I think that is more than fair. 

Basically during the evaluation we see how much control you have with your dog, how you play with your dog, how your dog reacts to a stranger and loud noises, will it engage in prey drive or in defense drive when presented a bite object while back tied. Basically if your dog can do a CGN and will bite that's the gist of what we do. For me it's more about the working bond between the dog and handler and if they are 'both' trainable. 

I also like to see the dog twice on separate days as the 2nd day tells me a lot about how the dog acclimitizes to new environments, as well as commitment from the handler. In the end you are as well evaluating the handler to, not just the dog. I've made mistakes on reading both dogs and handlers and the worse ones are when you misread a persons intentions and then you are stuck with their BS. Trust me toxic people kill a club fast, as I can deal with a dog's BS a lot easier than a persons LOL.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

leslie cassian said:


> This thread made me think about this...
> http://www.WorkingDogForum.com/vBulletin/f9/schutzhund-psa-french-ring-46553/
> 
> How do you evaluate a dog or a pup? For yourself, or as a prospective club member, or for a particular purpose. How long do you spend and what kind of tests do you do?
> ...


Ok ill bite...
How would you evaluate whether a "dog" is (1) Happy, (2) Confident, (3) good drive (what drives in particular), and (4) has "Heart"..

not confrontational at all...just asking...since you are asking I presume for specifics..

I would say that I would evaluate looking for same attributes, although I am a little hazy on what "happy" means..  although I do get the gist.

I will give detailed answer for all the questions above for the "norm" of what I have done in the past...

pups are a little more straight forward, with unknown pedigree/family info or evals..less you can do and less you can trust in my opinion..just me..meaning if you have pup that cant be backed up with good information on lineage, even if the pup looks promising, that is not something you can count on for certain functions just because the pups "looks" good during eval...basic good dog/pup stuff sure...but more intensive functions not so reliable, in all aspects..there are just some things that you simply cannot eval in a pup, and things that may only be present or missing in adults..good or bad..


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

I haven't really done a lot of dog evaluations in any capacity, except as a bystander at the club, or when I get a new foster dog, so I don't have a set of tests or a standard I'm looking for. I was just throwing out some ideas in the hope that those more experienced would chime in.

When I trained more seriously, I used to look at other people's dogs and try to analyse what I liked or didn't like about them. It's pretty subjective and my liking a dog or not has nothing to do with how good the dog actually is, but more about what I want from a dog. As far as picking a dog for real work, I would get a second opinion. 

Happy, confident, drive, heart. I don't think I have a real definition for any of those. If I was hypothetically looking at a young dog for me to work, I would want to see ears up, eyes bright, tail wagging, I would want to see the dog walk into the space like it's no big deal, curious about the world, and not be fearful of what's there - equipment, people, surfaces. Does he have anything he wants that I can use to engage him? Toys, food, tugs, and how much does he want them? And heart... is he easy to crush? Does he bounce back from a mistake? Does he try or give up easily? And mostly, do I like the dog and does he seem interested in me?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I like to see a very confident dog in strange places.

High energy without bordering on being neurotic. 

A dog that is curious about strange thing happening around it. In particular anything you may be doing.

A dog that will chase a rag on a string.

A dog that wants to catch what it chases.

#1 for me is as close to a natural retrieve as possible. 
FOR ME, hat shows a willingness to work with a person. 

There are other things to look for depending on what the dog is going to be involved in.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

for sure, 250 for an eval is a rip off if your eval is done at a club in a half hour or so 

i would want to see the details of what he does before i would agree it's a rip off
- and i would have much the same Q's as Leslie posed

but for example, if the guy evaluated the dog on numerous occasions in a variety of environments on multi days, thoroughly evaluated the dog with the owner at home and out, and boarded the dog for a one on one for a few days without the owner, that price might be justified...a web site should have a full disclosure of what he does. i'd be curious to see it, but if i had to make an uninformed bet i would guess a rip off //LOL//

i am not that detailed, but i do a lot more than look at the dog and owner for a few minutes. i've done many over the years and they get longer instead of shorter, and that has worked very well for me. my evals are done to see what the dog can show me, what it likes and dislikes, but NOT what i can make it do, and it is VERY heavily weighted on evaluating the owner or owners. it is often the highest priority.
- trainers who show the owners their control over their dog to supposedly motivate the owners to sign on, are just on an ego trip imnsho 
- i think a good trainer should be like a good breeder. making money should not be the highest priority
- it makes no difference what i might get out of the dog if the owners are having a problem training it, and behavior issues can't always be seen in a few minutes. bonding issues sometimes don't show up in a short eval either. most all issues i see with frustrated owners boil down to either a lack of a consistent training system, or a bonding issue of some sort, no matter what they want to do with the dog

i know i have improved my ability to read dogs over the years, as well as reading owners, but i'm no Michael Ellis and an owner will rarely give you the full picture when you first meet up 
- especially if the eval is being done to look at behavior issues like aggression
- some things might be obvious from the get go, but not all 
- if the owner does't want to take the time and give me a chance to see the dog in a variety of situations, it is a CLEAR red flag they won't invest the time and effort to set up a plan and learn how to train it. i'd rather waste a little time up front than waste it later 
- a training plan is useless if owner and trainer are not on the same page and same paragraph //lol//

i realize a club environment won't have that much time to spend, but i also think a weakness of a short club eval is that the TD or whoever does it, will not get a full picture of the owner/dog relationship, and may not see the relevancy of what happens outside the club unless it is a glaring problem, in which case they won't want to deal with. 
** but what happens away from the field is 90% of where the dog and owner will spend their time
-- this came up in a semi-recent thread and i got a PM from Michael that confirmed what i had posted

i've posted details before of how i do evals but it's prob more than what Leslie is looking for
- maybe i'll dig it up, but it starts with a lot of observation with the owners in interactive situations i set up without any interaction or influence from me at all


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## shelle fenton (Sep 24, 2015)

Tis easier for me. I just hold my hand up and say, i know jack shit about picking the right pup, and allow the breeder and IPO trainer pick the pup for me.

What about me? Im on the other end of the leash. You need to be able to judge me too surely?
Now that's a skill my dogs have. My mastiff can work out, who to listen to, and who he can ignore in a few seconds, very accurately. 

What im getting at is: Id want to know why the assessor believes they are qualified to do this?
Im wary of 'experts' without lived experience, demonstrable skills, and qualifications/titles by reputable training organizations. If you say you can train IPO AND have a dog that is not titled, pretty much tells me you are useless as an assessor.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

not interested in how to do the homework to check out the evaluator...

i have done lots of evals for lots of different situations before i start a training program, but never specifically for IPO potential

- the subject interests me and the thread has kinda died out. these questions seem relevant to me regarding IPO and other related protection sports, but if i left out anything you feel important please provide your inputs. there must be other sport types who have done them or watched them
- can’t imagine that other sports involving bitework (PSA, Ring, etc) would differ that much so feel free to add if you feel otherwise

** i want to stay away from a "drive" discussion and talk some specifics that have not been discussed **

so, for those who participate in IPO/PSA/Mondio/FR, etc., or have in the past, how do you think a dog be evaluated for sport potential ?

since many sport involves OB, bitework and tracking, should all be evaluated for the potential to do each phase, or are they secondary to bitework potential and grips ?

should the dog be taken in close proximity to strangers to see how it responds ?
- with and/or without the owner holding the lead ?
- should it matter if the dog did not like to be handled by a stranger (simple stuff, like taking the lead from the owner)

should it be back tied, posted or otherwise restrained during the eval ?

could you say a pup or young dog has potential without seeing it bite ?
- is grabbing a tug or rag enough, or would it need to actually grip something used in the sport (sleeve, etc) and have the grip evaluated ?

does the dog need to show a desire to bite on its own without pressure ?
does it need to be able to respond positively to some level of pressure to get it to bite, without simply biting out of fear to make the object/subject go away ? (iow, should there be pressure in the eval?)

does it need to demonstrate confidence on unusual surfaces to have sport potential ?

does it need to show a willingness to retrieve an object to have potential ?

does its ability to jump need evaluating and if so, how ?

do you have any red flags that would rule out sport potential ?

or ..... is an evaluation even necessary ? 
- should an interested owner just join and start paying/training to see over time if the potential is there or not there ?

try and be as specific as you can from the EVALUATOR perspective, not the OWNER perspective 

TIA


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

I'm not sure why you are stuck on this idea of elaborate evaluations to join an IPO club. The evaluator is not buying the dog, handling the dog or promising to title it to a certain level, but just deciding if the owner is wasting his/her time and money joining the club and if the club is going to be wasting their time and effort working with the prospective member. Joining a club is not just about the dog you bring. There needs to be a meeting of goals and expectations on all sides and a mesh of personalities. Every club has its own style, and things like facilities, experience, distance, fees, members, training style are going to influence the decision to join or not as much or more than the dog you bring. 

When I trained, the club was a mix of new handlers and experienced, young dogs, experienced dogs, show lines, working lines, and off breeds. Some clubs are more welcoming of new members, some have reached capacity. When new people showed up, there was an evaluation, much as Jaidee described, watching the dog relaxed and free in the training area around the club members, some obedience, maybe some rag or tug work, and maybe a sleeve if the dog had prior training, which most didn't. 

But here's the other part. If the sport is to grow, then clubs need to welcome new handlers. Most people start with the dog they own - either because, like me, they realize that their dog is an asshole and needs a job, or because they have a GSD and are interested in sport training or any other reason. Some people joined, tried for a while and moved on, but others continued to train and worked to the limit of their dog or got a new dog more suitable to the sport. 

You tell me, Rick, how long does it take you to get an impression of a dog? Is it confident, social, drivey, spooky, timid, defensive, curious, aggressive? How long do you need to see the dog and handler together to decide if they have a good relationship? If you have the basics, then the rest is just training and experience.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

I have seen to many dogs that excuses are made, and the dog and even the handler are just wasting the clubs time. The biggest excuse is people using generalizations of breed specific traits such as the often thrown around 'slow maturing' to negate handlers and dogs. That being said 'slow maturing' is often just an excuse for failure of a specific breeding or specific dog. Like when does the dog mature, when does the training mature when does the handler mature? 

I've seen people go through 3-4 dogs and it is the same issues over and over. Or the 'master trainer' that takes 5 years to get a BH on a dog though they have lots of pretty pictures on facebook while all their asinine followers fawn over their illusion . Stuff that makes you go "Hunnh?" Do I really want to be involved with that? 

I've seen over 20 dogs come through clubs that were supposedly 'slow to mature' and in the end only about 10% of those would be capable of anything more than a basic title no matter the work the handler and club put into them. So it hasn't been a good investment of resources. A club isn't a business and shouldn't be there to fleece people out of money or for newbs to fleece clubs out of time. Face it a club is not there to sell people dreams or 'grow' a sport it is about the club members first. If newbs want to make themselves a commodity by being serious with their training and gaining experience and offer mutually beneficial services then it becomes worthwhile. Other than that, it becomes a big suck on a sour lemon quick. 

This year I've had a few people contact me about training 'bitework' for fun. Really? For fun? They are seriously asking. It's stuff like that why I'm not really interested in growing the so called sport. As it isn't really growth but an empire made up of smoke and mirrors.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Nice reality check, Geoff. 

Perhaps I have been luckier than I realize with my dogs and the people who have allowed me to train with them.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

very few IPO clubs here
all are serious
your dog will be evaluated to see if it has IPO potential, not just to see if it's a nice confident pup or young dog that will play with a tug

my reality is that IPO and all protection related sports involves controlled aggression ... aka: biting/gripping
to me, that's what sets it apart from dog sports like flyball, dock diving, agility, and rally (whatever that is), etc etc
- that potential should be specifically evaluated in my opinion
- as well as a few other aspects directly related to IPO (or whatever the protection sport)

it's a no freaking brainer the owner should be evaluated too, to see if they are serious about learning the sport and training their dog ](*,)

it is insulting to read a comment about the evaluator not being there "to buy the dog", etc etc ](*,)

sorry i took the time to list specifics that i thought might be relevant.
they were serious questions, not an indication i am "stuck on elaborate evaluations" ](*,)](*,)


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

had MANY discussions with many types of dog owners about the "maturity" of a dog and how to tell when it is mature, etc ......

i keep it simple
when its body is fully developed i consider it a mature dog even if it still shows a lot of puppy behavior....and i will treat it as a mature dog ....most of the time 

case in point.....
..... i also think this holds true for other species 
- cats raised in a domestic environment will often retain a lot of kitten behaviors, but that only makes them kitties to kitten lovers 
- i still allow my 15 yr old aggressive tomcat to jump on my lap and knead my stomach looking for a teat because i think it's "cute"


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

leslie cassian said:


> Nice reality check, Geoff.
> 
> Perhaps I have been luckier than I realize with my dogs and the people who have allowed me to train with them.


Don't get me wrong I will help people and try to get people started in my sport ... but I mean and a big but, a lot of it was a reality check for me to. I can't expect people to make the same commitment that I did in the beggining to learn and train. Still my club now is down to 3-4 people and we all have different goals and levels of commitment, and that is Ok. 

I'll evaluate a person's dog but now the criteria has changed. Gone for me are the days of trying to make silk purses out of pigs ears. A friend of mine who is a member here asks potential recruits when the query him he asks "if they think their dog can your dog climb an 2.3m wall "if they stutter or poop a little in their pants I guess that's the answer. Now some of my recruit evaluations last about 2-3 sentences, and the gong is hit and the hook comes out figuratively speaking. Gone are the days for me to help someone to get maybe a Brevet at best or have their crapper chase a flirt pole where I could be training with like minded people elsewhere with my own dog or even better spending it with my family. Really who wants to waste their time with other people's excuses. 

Like I said earlier


> If newbs want to make themselves a commodity by being serious with their training and gaining experience and offer mutually beneficial services then it becomes worthwhile.


 The dog is an important part, but it is the people you have to deal with and in many cases they are the harder part to deal with.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Getting an entry level title in IPO (BH) is achievable for a lot of people with less than stellar dogs. There are a number of clubs in this area, so there are opportunities and resources. 

Ring is so much more demanding of the dog, the handler and the training just to step on the trial field. Makes sense that your screening process is much more stringent than I have encountered in IPO.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

owners : one reason my evals are longer than average. 
- people are harder to read than dogs, and the longer you spend with them the more you can determine if they are serious about training or are just out to have fun on a sunny day with a trainer 
- i used to be surprised at how many owners could not even stick their hand in their dog's mouth to give it a quick check....
"well...ok" 
....."GRRRRRRR" ... 
followed by : "oh we never do that with him; he doesn't like it" //rotflmao//

fortunately i can choose who i want to work with since most people are not that serious

jumping ability is exactly why i listed that question.....
i have met many people that consider their dog a "sport dog" and it couldn't even clear a traffic cone and the owner had NO way to motivate it to try ](*,)

just an uneducated wild ass guess, but i'll bet if evals were more comprehensive and more dogs were rejected, the overall quality of protection sports would improve


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