# Collar Wise



## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

I didn't want to hijack the other thread, but I wanted to open the "collar wise" subject to discussion.

It has been debated in my club. I am the only one who trains with the e-collar for everything/ it is always on both my dogs at training. Infact they are collared before being loaded into my van with pinch and e and for tracking etc.

I was told a long time ago that if you have it on for all the training then the dog will not get collar wise etc. It just becomes habit and I believe it. I also believe we are always training except on trial day. 

Now where I have seen problems within my own club is when people grab a collar e or pinch and are constantly taking it on and off or using it to try to fix something like dirty guarding or in-attentiveness. So of course these trainers believe their dogs are collar wise- I think this is just inconsistant training.

Input?


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## jason farrish (Jul 18, 2008)

I believe dogs obey for 3 reasons

they want to

its a habit

they have to

So in effect all training reinforces these things and the tool you use doesnt matter nearly as much as consistency. Every now and then Ill work my dog with no collar leash or anything and give corrections with my hands or voice. I dont hit the dog but I may get in his face and let him know he must obey.

I dont think there is a way to fool a dog into thinking he has a collar on all the time they just arent that stupid I think what most people say is being collar wise is just inconsistant training in general.


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

Well said Jason. I also use my voice/hands around the house and if for some reason I find my collar dead or leash not on etc.


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## Eric Eschmann (Jun 21, 2008)

Some of the best advice I ever got was when purchasing an e-collar, also purchase an identical dummy collar. 

I get the dogs used to having the collar put on and taken off regularly, not making a big deal of it. The dog often wears the real or dummy collar while just hanging out in the house or yard without any formal training happening; it's just on the dog's neck like any other collar. Sure, a stim can come from the collar at times, but the instances the collar is on without a correction coming from it far exceeds the amount of time it is used to mold a behavior.


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## John Letcher (Nov 29, 2008)

when i started in dog training i was told all the same things about making the dog collar wise. do this, dont do this. after a few years and training with some top people i have come to the conclusion, that yes we as trainers create collar wise dogs. train with whatever collar you want. do it till it becomes a habit(i train several day a week). test every once and a while. conclusion, most of the people i have met who say a dog becomes collar wise are the ones that you describe who only use a new collar when they think they need it, or those that do not work with their dog enough.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Anyone who thinks that becoming "collar-wise" is restricted to the Ecollar, really is showing a hole in their understanding of how dogs learn. If this occurs it's because of a flaw in the training, not anything inherent in the Ecollar. One can make a dog "collar-wise" with something as benign as a bandanna if the training is done improperly.


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

Lou Castle said:


> Anyone who thinks that becoming "collar-wise" is restricted to the Ecollar, really is showing a hole in their understanding of how dogs learn. .


I’m a collar wise victim and I am not ashamed to admit it. Starting on my first day of basic training I worked my dog on a pinch. He wears a pinch every time we train and every shift we work. Problem is… I can’t do my aggression control certification with the pinch collar on. I have to certify him with a choke chain on. 

Over the 5 years we’ve been together he’s learned from the few times he’s worn it that dad can’t give me a good correction with a choke chain on…. So our listening skills start to deteriorate real fast.


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

Lou Castle said:


> Anyone who thinks that becoming "collar-wise" is restricted to the Ecollar, really is showing a hole in their understanding of how dogs learn. If this occurs it's because of a flaw in the training, not anything inherent in the Ecollar. One can make a dog "collar-wise" with something as benign as a bandanna if the training is done improperly.


I completly agree Lou. I don't agrue with anyone I just do my thing and stay consistant. 

But as you all know you can not tell another trainer anything. You know it is a problem when every dog that the trainer has ever trialed have the exact same issues.


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

Matthew Grubb said:


> I’m a collar wise victim and I am not ashamed to admit it. Starting on my first day of basic training I worked my dog on a pinch. He wears a pinch every time we train and every shift we work. Problem is… I can’t do my aggression control certification with the pinch collar on. I have to certify him with a choke chain on.
> 
> Over the 5 years we’ve been together he’s learned from the few times he’s worn it that dad can’t give me a good correction with a choke chain on…. So our listening skills start to deteriorate real fast.


Mathew can you not do the same type of test as part of your training with the collar's on? With automatic or timely corrections done for your dog's usual problems so that eventually you make it through the training with no corrections because the dog knows it is coming???

Maybe I don't understand your whole test process/ can you explain it further?

Thanks.


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## Sarah ten Bensel (Mar 16, 2008)

I wonder, too if the dog knows the difference between when the collar is turned on versus when it is turned off?


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Sarah ten Bensel said:


> I wonder, too if the dog knows the difference between when the collar is turned on versus when it is turned off?


No. But they'll pick up on the presence of the remote! Keep them hidden or condition for the remote as well!


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Matthew Grubb said:


> I’m a collar wise victim and I am not ashamed to admit it. Starting on my first day of basic training I worked my dog on a pinch. He wears a pinch every time we train and every shift we work. Problem is… I can’t do my aggression control certification with the pinch collar on. I have to certify him with a choke chain on.
> 
> Over the 5 years we’ve been together he’s learned from the few times he’s worn it that dad can’t give me a good correction with a choke chain on…. So our listening skills start to deteriorate real fast.


 
I do not know if this will work Matthew. But it's worth a try. I train Sch, so I can only have a fur saver on my dog during a trial. I just had the notion that I can make the "collar wise" theory work in my favor. By making the dog think the Fur Saver is the collar that is causing the correction. I see it in my head like this, I take my dog out with the training collars on, but I do not use them...Maybe just throw the ball, Or train with the collars on knowing I am not going to be able to correct. I do this till the dog has associated those collars with doing something fun, and training. Now when I see my dog come out of the crate excited to wear it's pinch or E-collar. I now carry the fursaver in my pocket. during training when I am going to start correcting I place the Fur saver on the dogs neck....hopefuly creating an association that the fur saver is actually (in the dogs mind) is the collar causing correction. The only thing I worry about is the dog feeling more pressured due to the presence of the fur saver.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

James Downey said:


> I do not know if this will work Matthew. But it's worth a try. I train Sch, so I can only have a fur saver on my dog during a trial. I just had the notion that I can make the "collar wise" theory work in my favor. By making the dog think the Fur Saver is the collar that is causing the correction. I see it in my head like this, I take my dog out with the training collars on, but I do not use them...Maybe just throw the ball, Or train with the collars on knowing I am not going to be able to correct. I do this till the dog has associated those collars with doing something fun, and training. Now when I see my dog come out of the crate excited to wear it's pinch or E-collar. I now carry the fursaver in my pocket. during training when I am going to start correcting I place the Fur saver on the dogs neck....hopefuly creating an association that the fur saver is actually (in the dogs mind) is the collar causing correction. The only thing I worry about is the dog feeling more pressured due to the presence of the fur saver.



Clever! Nice! I think I am going to try this with a flat nylon collar.  Thanks for sharing a good idea!


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## Matt Hammond (Apr 11, 2006)

I like to mix it up on my girl. I bought her from a sit means sit trainier. so she is well aware of what the collar is and can do. I put it on her (off) and she is great. If I do have to Stim her it is very low. I like My collar for the vibration feature. I use it more them the correction. 

But 90% of the time while training she has on a prong, I guess you alway go back to what you know best. For me it is the prong.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

James Downey said:


> I do not know if this will work Matthew. But it's worth a try. I train Sch, so I can only have a fur saver on my dog during a trial. I just had the notion that I can make the "collar wise" theory work in my favor. By making the dog think the Fur Saver is the collar that is causing the correction. I see it in my head like this, I take my dog out with the training collars on, but I do not use them...Maybe just throw the ball, Or train with the collars on knowing I am not going to be able to correct. I do this till the dog has associated those collars with doing something fun, and training. Now when I see my dog come out of the crate excited to wear it's pinch or E-collar. I now carry the fursaver in my pocket. during training when I am going to start correcting I place the Fur saver on the dogs neck....hopefuly creating an association that the fur saver is actually (in the dogs mind) is the collar causing correction. The only thing I worry about is the dog feeling more pressured due to the presence of the fur saver.


It works, I know multiple trainers who have used this in both Sch and FR on their dogs.


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> It works, I know multiple trainers who have used this in both Sch and FR on their dogs.


Oh, interesting! How would this be done with a FR dog who wears NO collar in trial?


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> It works, I know multiple trainers who have used this in both Sch and FR on their dogs.


Did you know if the dog shows any adversion the fursaver now?

I am glad to know my critical thinking skills work. But I am sad my thought is not an original one.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

James Downey said:


> Did you know if the dog shows any adversion the fursaver now?


The dogs basically acted like a dog that had an e-collar on. How the dog was trained with the collar, and the dogs personality, determined the dogs final demeanor. Really no different then any other dog trained with an ecollar who has become collar wise due to incorrect on/off usage.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> The dogs basically acted like a dog that had an e-collar on. How the dog was trained with the collar, and the dogs personality, determined the dogs final demeanor. Really no different then any other dog trained with an ecollar who has become collar wise due to incorrect on/off usage.


 
I completely agree with this. 
Adversion comes from poor training. It has nothing to do with the equiptment used.
Collare wise, ring wise, etc is a product of poor or maybe just incomplete training but I don't put it in the same category as adversion.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Anne Vaini said:


> No. But they'll pick up on the presence of the remote! Keep them hidden or condition for the remote as well!


Is that why my male freaks when I change TV channels?


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

For a minute, I was sitting on my high horse, Very proud that I do not have collar wise dog....I have done a great job making sure that she does not have negative associations to her collars. Lulling and basking in my applause....I was startled when a thought humbled me pretty quickly. That was my dog does is not wise to the collar. But she is wise to when I have the tab of the pinch in my hand. I do a lot of light pops while saying a command, to keep things fast. The only thing is that the dog has learned when I do not have the tab, she can slack off a little. I do not get total disobedience. But the dog does not preform as clean as when I have the tab. 

Any suggestions on how to make sure that does not happen again. 

I am not sure when she learned this, or how. But I have suspicion that I grabbed the tab and often corrected right after doing so. 

Maybe if I grab the tab, and just reward immediatly on occasion.....?


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

We're now in the enviable position that we're not allowed to use them in Switzerland:-({|= 

I used it in the manner of "pop + praise" unwanted behaviour "pop" wanted behaviour "praise". 

I'm not sure for what exercises you're using it but it would be good to wean the dog off the tab to a dialogue of yes and no as to what you want from it, i.e. precision, speed. 

I've seen it used before the sendaway but here I insist on precise heeling for about a minute before I send the dog by which time he's frothing at the mouth to go.

At training all our dogs wore pinch (long line) and fursaver (short line). Handled well, the dog doesn't check which one you're picking up to use.

Tracking the same but with 2 long lines.

Probably preaching to the converted but it might be of use.


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

James... I have a tiny pull toggle on a strand of thin wire I use for that.. just grab it and pop. 

BTW... thanks for all the ideas everyone.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

James Downey said:


> For a minute, I was sitting on my high horse, Very proud that I do not have collar wise dog....I have done a great job making sure that she does not have negative associations to her collars. Lulling and basking in my applause....I was startled when a thought humbled me pretty quickly. That was my dog does is not wise to the collar. But she is wise to when I have the tab of the pinch in my hand. I do a lot of light pops while saying a command, to keep things fast. The only thing is that the dog has learned when I do not have the tab, she can slack off a little. I do not get total disobedience. But the dog does not preform as clean as when I have the tab.
> 
> Any suggestions on how to make sure that does not happen again.
> 
> ...


I think you answered your own question! :lol:


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Anne...Do you think that will work?


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

James Downey said:


> Anne...Do you think that will work?


Anything that breaks the pattern of what the dog expects will work. Your dog has a conditioned response to the stimulus of you taking the tab. Your dog has learned that you taking the tab = threat of correction for underperformance.

You want to change (counter-condition) this to mean, you taking the tab = nothing, and also condition that you NOT taking the tab = threat of correction for underperformance.

So that means reward after taking the tab AND correct without taking the tab.


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