# Indras Day



## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

Thought I'd share a little of what we did today 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRV---84z2A


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

That's awesome, this is a vid of my dog just goofin around this spring..nothing special like yours though O

http://vimeo.com/23092531


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

I know you didn't ask about this, but on this marker-charging clip right near the one you posted http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXSvMq8X1N0&NR=1 , is the sound out of synch, or is the reward being given a split second _before_ the click? (Or it might be me. :lol: )

The marker means "reward coming." It can't really say that if the reward comes first. 

JMO!


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I know you didn't ask about this, but on this marker-charging clip right near the one you posted http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXSvMq8X1N0&NR=1 , is the sound out of synch, or is the reward being given a split second _before_ the click? (Or it might be me. :lol: )
> 
> The marker means "reward coming." It can't really say that if the reward comes first.
> 
> JMO!


It's a split second after she's catching the treat. That's how I learned it back in Germany


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Sandra King said:


> It's a split second after she's catching the treat.



If the mark comes AFTER the reward, then what is the message of that marker? What does it "mark"?

Once it's loaded, the marker is kind of an instant snapshot of what the dog did to cause a reward to be on the way. It will say to the dog "Correct! Reward coming!"


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

Connie Sutherland said:


> If the mark comes AFTER the reward, then what is the message of that marker? What does it "mark"?
> 
> Once it's loaded, the marker is kind of an instant snapshot of what the dog did to cause a reward to be on the way. It will say to the dog "Correct! Reward coming!"


That was the charging, Connie.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Edit: never mind, Connie's got it...but charging the clicker always has the click come first. 

But just curious...are there SAR vests for the dogs that don't fit over their shoulder blades and upper arms? They restrict the dog's movement.


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Sandra...maybe this will help you... 

http://www.clickertraining.com/15tips


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

Connie, this is how I learned it back at the Schutzhund Club from a Police Officer. It worked with every single dog. They do get the concept, either way and many ways lead to rome. You are right, I didn't ask for it. It's about Indra, not about Kia.

And by the way, even the Karen Pryor Videos teach to click AFTER they picked up the food from the ground when charging the clicker. Well, it's not Karens Video, it's the How to Bow Wow series you can buy at the store.


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Sandra, why do you use the clicker? If the clicker marks the exact behavior and informs the dog that he/she just performed the right thing?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Sandra King said:


> That was the charging, Connie.



Yes, that's what I said (_"on this marker-charging clip"_).

But what you want to be teaching in charging your marker is "reward coming!"

That is, "reward just came" is not meaningful for training. 

The "reward coming" sound becomes a sound the dog wants to trigger. This will be the point of the charged marker -- to convey to the dog the exact action that caused that "reward coming" sound to happen.

You will never need to convey "reward just came" to the dog.

The reward always comes after the marker, both in charging it (which after all is simply conveying to the dog that the marker means "good stuff coming") and in actual training use.

Your timing is nice; it's just backward. I don't think you'll have any of the awkwardness between clicking and rewarding that I often have (which is why I generally use a verbal marker :lol: ).

http://www.clickertrainusa.com/chargingtheclicker.htm

QUOTE: _In order for the clicker to have a meaning we need to “charge” it. This means that we need to tell the dog that this metallic clicking sound means that a treat is coming. We do this by associating each click with a piece of food.

Prepare in advance a clicker and some highly reinforcing treats.
Regardless of your dog’s behavior, click your clicker and treat immediately after.
Repeat about 20 times.
Now, wait for the dog to look in another direction and then click your clicker. If the dog looks up at you to get the treat, he/she is starting to learn the association.
_
http://www.dog-obedience-training-review.com/charging-the-clicker.html

QUOTE: _A treat must always follow the click ...._


http://leerburg.com/flix/player.php?id=102

QUOTE (Ellis, at 1:59): _Don't move until right after you click ...._


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

Because she's a sensitive dog. I always start out with the clicker and then eventually move over to a Marker Word. It's what I feel comfortable with and the way I work the dogs...


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> That's awesome, this is a vid of my dog just goofin around this spring..nothing special like yours though O
> 
> http://vimeo.com/23092531


I like the little hunt drive clip.


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Sandra King said:


> And by the way, even the Karen Pryor Videos teach to click AFTER they picked up the food from the ground when charging the clicker. .


This is a Karen Pryor article at no time does she teach treat then click... 

http://www.clickertraining.com/node/2016


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

Doug Zaga said:


> This is a Karen Pryor article at no time does she teach treat then click...
> 
> http://www.clickertraining.com/node/2016


It's the damn video she's selling in her store. 

Now could we PLEASE GET BACK ON TOPIC? THIS IS NOT ABOUT CLICKER TRAINING! IT's the way I work, period!


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Sandra...why so personal. Just trying to help. * If you use the system the proper way* maybe, just maybe, somethings will improve and more importanlty the dog will have a clear and concise system to learn...just sayn!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Sandra King said:


> Connie, this is how I learned it back at the Schutzhund Club from a Police Officer. It worked with every single dog. They do get the concept, either way and many ways lead to rome. You are right, I didn't ask for it. It's about Indra, not about Kia.
> 
> And by the way, even the Karen Pryor Videos teach to click AFTER they picked up the food from the ground when charging the clicker. Well, it's not Karens Video, it's the How to Bow Wow series you can buy at the store.


" .... the Karen Pryor Videos teach to click AFTER they picked up the food from the ground when charging the clicker." Actually, no, they don't. 

However, I get it that you didn't ask for and don't want what I meant as useful information. I was trying not to trigger defensiveness, but I obviously failed.


Indra looks like a nice dog who is having a good time.


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

Doug Zaga said:


> Sandra...why so personal. Just trying to help. * If you use the system the proper way* maybe, just maybe, somethings will improve and more importanlty the dog will have a clear and concise system to learn...just sayn!


Look, it's what I've learned and got from several sources. The dogs get a clear message. You can charge the clicker a MILLION different ways. 

Another one is to throw the food on the floor and click anytime they pick it up. They DO associate the treat with the click and the click with the treat, EITHER way! 

I didn't ask for advise nor for help about clicker training because I don't have any issues with Kia's clicker training, she's responding awesome and learned to sit the very first day we started clicker training. 

Now can we please get back to topic? If I have a question about clicker training, you'll know because I post about it!


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Connie Sutherland said:


> " ....
> However, I get it that you didn't ask for and don't want what I meant as useful information. I was trying not to trigger defensiveness, but I obviously failed.
> 
> 
> Indra looks like a nice dog who is having a good time.


I second that.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Sandra King said:


> Because she's a sensitive dog. I always start out with the clicker and then eventually move over to a Marker Word. It's what I feel comfortable with and the way I work the dogs...


I had no negative words about the clicker. What I said was that you are not awkward with it, and I am.


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

Connie Sutherland said:


> " .... the Karen Pryor Videos teach to click AFTER they picked up the food from the ground when charging the clicker.*" Actually, no, they don't. *
> 
> However, I get it that you didn't ask for and don't want what I meant as useful information. I was trying not to trigger defensiveness, but I obviously failed.
> 
> ...


It's the Bow Wow Series. One of their way to charge the clicker is to throw a bunch of food on the floor an have the dog pick it up and then you click. However, it works, either way... 


Yes, she's having a blast. It was a good training day. Have to fine-tune her now.


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Sandra King said:


> Look, it's what I've learned and got from several sources. The dogs get a clear message. You can charge the clicker a MILLION different ways.


I respectfully disagree with you if you are saying that to charge a clicker you treat then click. ! Please provide some source or article as to treating then clicking is the way to charge the mark.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Sandra King said:


> ... They DO associate the treat with the click and the click with the treat, EITHER way!


What I want is for the dog to associate the marker with "reward coming" ... I want that marker to tell the dog exactly what she was doing to make that marker happen. That's the point of it.

So associating the marker with the reward is part of it, but it leaves out that whole beautiful timing benefit -- the method that allows us to precisely point out the wanted behavior, much more quickly and smoothly than fumbling out a treat and getting it to the dog who-knows-when. The marker pinpoints it for us. But it has to mean "reward coming" to do that.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Doug Zaga said:


> I respectfully disagree with you if you are saying that to charge a clicker you treat then click.


So do I. I couldn't disagree more; it throws away most of the benefits of marker training's precision timing.

However, I'll drop out. 

Again, nice dog.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Sandra, don't take this the wrong way. We just want to help you. Was this the series you mean? (bold emphasis mine)

http://www.takeabowwow.com/clicker.html



> How do we introduce the clicker?
> Press the clicker and then deliver a treat to the dog. *(Ideally, the treat should be delivered within a second AFTER the click.)* By closely pairing the click sound with a treat, the dog soon becomes excited when he hears the click because he knows something wonderful will follow. (This is called Classical Conditioning.)


Since we are encouraging the dog to interact with the handler, I don't really see why scattering food on the ground would be better over just giving it yourself. Maybe an exception would be a very human aggressive dog? Will have to remember that one for later...


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Sandra, don't take this the wrong way. We just want to help you. Was this the series you mean? (bold emphasis mine)
> 
> http://www.takeabowwow.com/clicker.html


Yes, on the video they had a couple of different introductions. However... it works either way. You should try it. Throw a bunch of treats on the floor and whenever they pick it up, click. They get the concept EITHER WAY! 

Now can we please stop arguing about this? I have no issues with the Clicker whatsoever. Indra is the perfect example. She was tought the same way!


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Sandra King said:


> Yes, on the video they had a couple of different introductions. However... it works either way. You should try it. Throw a bunch of treats on the floor and whenever they pick it up, click. They get the concept EITHER WAY!
> 
> Now can we please stop arguing about this? I have no issues with the Clicker whatsoever. Indra is the perfect example. She was tought the same way!


no arguing, thread will lock...


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I didn't ever see it as arguing and no need to get defensive.  If you were taught an actual reason for clicking after the treat other than it was on a video series (though the website seems to say different), that's fine and maybe we can all learn something if you share the reasoning. That being said, I've never heard it presented to do it opposite, as you describe. It's like swinging for a baseball after it's already in the catcher's mitt. Pavlov's dogs did not salivate and then have the bell rung, it was the other way around. Try it the other way and see what results you get.  I don't own a dog that's not been charged to the clicker (it should only take one session or so), so as I said, I think it'd probably only use the scattering on the ground technique with a client's dog that's perhaps very difficult to handle/aggressive or one who is extremely shy.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jody Butler said:


> no arguing, thread will lock...


I haven't seen any name-calling or personal attacks. Arguing is the glue that keeps a bunch of dog trainers in one spot (however briefly). :lol:


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I haven't seen any name-calling or personal attacks. Arguing is the glue that keeps a bunch of dog trainers in one spot (however briefly). :lol:


 
are you sure all dog trainers? LOL


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jody Butler said:


> are you sure all dog trainers? LOL


Well .... maybe I'm toadally wrong. I just read somewhere that only SchH 3 HOTs are real trainers. In fact,

1. Train a pup to SchH3
2. Qualify your SchH3 dog to compete in USA Nationals


So I guess I have to nail down my definitions first. :lol:


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Well .... maybe I'm toadally wrong. I just read somewhere that only SchH 3 HOTs are real trainers. In fact,
> 
> 1. Train a pup to SchH3
> 2. Qualify your SchH3 dog to compete in USA Nationals
> ...


In light of this, I think I'm getting robbed every time I pay my FR training decoy to work my dogs. Damn French thief, posing as a "real trainer."

Sorry, couldn't resist. 8-[


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Smart dude, getting women to pay for sessions!


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

I think he charges the men more due to the drama they bring with them to training.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Konnie Hein said:


> I think he charges the men more due to the drama they bring with them to training.


Even smarter dude telling you what you want to hear like that . I know some fitness trainers that use to tell their women customers the same thing .


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

See. Drama.


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Smart dude :-D Mo power to him.


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

Four pages and just one single post (from Gerry) that commented on Indras video. That ought to be a record...


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Sandra King said:


> Four pages and just one single post (from Gerry) that commented on Indras video. That ought to be a record...


What did you want to hear?


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

You'll have to pay the FR decoy for that


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Will he tell me what I want to hear?


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

Konnie Hein said:


> What did you want to hear?



What everybody wants to hear when he/she is posting a video. That it's about the actual dog and not about some gibberish. Amazingly it's absolutely okay to get off topic when an admin and moderator is doin it but beware if it's Gerry or anybody else... the topic would be locked within ten minutes!


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Konnie Hein said:


> Will he tell me what I want to hear?


Only if you don't negotiate the going rate.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Sandra:
I initially watched the video for a few seconds and had to turn it off due to the music. I just watched it again, and I saw a few short clips of a dog running across a field towards the woods and jumping over some low obstacles. Then there were several photos of her sitting in front of monuments with a SAR vest on. I even listened to the music this time, and the lyrics seemed like intentional goading.

Considering the current atmosphere on the board, you are just making a target of yourself here, which is none of my business really. Carry on.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

If I had to click after I treated I would simply treat and throw the clicker away LOL.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> But just curious...are there SAR vests for the dogs that don't fit over their shoulder blades and upper arms? They restrict the dog's movement.


I have a larger vest than what is shown in the vid. I bought it maybe a decade ago and have used it with 4 dogs of different sizes and breeds (Mals, Lab, and GSD). I never noticed it restricting their movement or causing any problems, even when worn working in the woods all day. It does, however, have elastic straps across the chest and belly.

I think it's this vest:
https://www.bridgeportequipment.com/ProductDetail.aspx?productId=198

I wouldn't recommend anybody go out and buy it either. It's not "breathable" enough material.


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

Konnie Hein said:


> I have a larger vest than what is shown in the vid. I bought it maybe a decade ago and have used it with 4 dogs of different sizes and breeds (Mals, Lab, and GSD). I never noticed it restricting their movement or causing any problems, even when worn working in the woods all day. It does, however, have elastic straps across the chest and belly.
> 
> I think it's this vest:
> https://www.bridgeportequipment.com/ProductDetail.aspx?productId=198
> ...



I don't think Indras Vest is restricting her movement. She's never had any issues with it. 

I think you can get the same style in Mesh... one of our team members has that same style, just in Mesh.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Yes, I have a mesh vest for summer use. My point, perhaps unclear, was that even a larger vest than the one in your video does not restrict movement.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Sandra King said:


> I don't think Indras Vest is restricting her movement. She's never had any issues with it.
> 
> I think you can get the same style in Mesh... one of our team members has that same style, just in Mesh.


I have one very similar, when me and my dog train in our SAR vest, at the park, I did notice that it does restrict her movement some..

was that video sped up at one part? the dog looked insanely quick...


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

Joby Becker said:


> I have one very similar, when me and my dog train in our SAR vest, at the park, I did notice that it does restrict her movement some..
> 
> was that video sped up at one part? the dog looked insanely quick...


The very beginning, where she's running towards the forest is her real speed. She's a fast dog but I did speed up at 0:27 and slightly at one minute. 

So far I haven't noticed any restrictions, the vest is a little to big, maybe that is what is leaving her room.


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Sandra King said:


> What everybody wants to hear when he/she is posting a video. That it's about the actual dog and not about some gibberish. Amazingly it's absolutely okay to get off topic when an admin and moderator is doin it but beware if it's Gerry or anybody else... the topic would be locked within ten minutes!


I take it from your posts that you are training your dog for SAR. To train the dog you chose to use the Clicker method. If you are using the method incorrectly then how can you expect the get the best out of the dog and keep confusion and conflict to a minimum?

You were provided sources on Clicker training that clearly are in direct contrast as to how to use the system yet you call this gibbersih... Yet, you originally state that you learned it in Germany then said it was in a bow wow dvd yet again it was proven that this is not what the bow wow dvd authors are teaching.

So, if you continue to say your way is right against all the top scientific studies and trainers using the clicker system ( we all make mistakes including me) what else is in your tool box that may not be beneficial to your dog's training and goals.

Back to the topic..I like your dog...having no idea about SAR what was the video trying to show about where you are with your training for SAR or am I misunderstanding why you posted this edited video?


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

WTF give it a rest!!!


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

> Back to the topic..I like your dog...having no idea about SAR what was the video trying to show about where you are with your training for SAR or am I misunderstanding why you posted this edited video?


Am I REALLY the first person on this forum that has EVER posted an edited Video? 

I was told that I shouldn't post stuff about SAR training that goes too much into detail so it can't be used against us later down the road so I am keeping it very general. And all I wanted to show is how much fun we've had today and that she's certainly coming along. 

Good Lord... 


And as for the clicker training. It IS on the DVD unless I have mistaken it with a different DVD and yes, I did learn it from a Police Officer in Germany before I even had that DVD. They do associate the click with a treat and the treat with a click... again, it works either way. 


*Just give it a rest! It works! Period! *And by the way... the click comes as soon as the treat hits her mouth. If you watch closely, you can see that.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Sandra King said:


> And as for the clicker training. It IS on the DVD unless I have mistaken it with a different DVD and yes, I did learn it from a Police Officer in Germany before I even had that DVD. They do associate the click with a treat and the treat with a click... again, it works either way.
> 
> 
> *Just give it a rest! It works! Period! *And by the way... the click comes as soon as the treat hits her mouth. If you watch closely, you can see that.


I would stop commenting on it if you want the topic dropped. _"And by the way ... the click comes as soon as the treat hits her mouth. If you watch closely, you can see that" _ comes across as continued engagement in discussion about the way you are reversing the order of the mark and reward in marker training. The order (clear in any material on operant conditioning) is to mark and THEN reward. If I wanted the topic dropped, I'd probably stop pointing out again how your click comes after you have tossed the treat. 

I have a question about the vest. I have seen the mesh ones but not handled them. Do they have more "give" (stretchiness)? That is, can the size be less precise because of that?


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Sandra King said:


> And by the way... the click comes as soon as the treat hits her mouth. If you watch closely, you can see that.


Still doesnt make sense to me, but if it works for you, who cares . I dont know much about SAR but beautiful athletic dog.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I mentioned the harness because of this post I made on a different thread along with some pictures:

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f35/where-get-mobility-harness-18217/#post284231

Dr. Chris Zink is of the opinion after having run a dog over force plates and kinematics software that harnesses that cross over the upper arm or shoulder blade of the dog interfere with their movement. She even said that if anyone in K9 or SAR work wants help designing a better harness, let her know. If anyone wants to take her up on it, I would. I got to talk with her afterwards and she knows her stuff.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I guess I am confused because it does not look like SAR but just having fun with the dog. What exactly are we supposed to be looking for?

You are right that many handlers, particularly, HR do NOT post videos because a defense attorney can twist those around - say an early training video is used - and they can point out all sorts of training problems that were resolved during ongoing training. I have an acquaintance who made the bad mistake of "reconstructing" a search for a jury by putting training aids where the finds were located and allowing them to videotape. Well it was pointed out by the defense that he was cueing the dog and, even though, it was not the actual search footage, it reflected badly on him.

Where are you actually doing for SAR training? The trained indication sequence has been done for a few months. Now - what size/age/type problems? Air scent? Trailing?

If I want my dog to jump over logs and on rocks etc, I just take him to the woods and he naturally does that for hours. As far as the vest, when I had an airscent dog, she only wore it when we were searching for someone.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I mentioned the harness because of this post I made on a different thread along with some pictures:
> 
> http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f35/where-get-mobility-harness-18217/#post284231
> 
> Dr. Chris Zink is of the opinion after having run a dog over force plates and kinematics software that harnesses that cross over the upper arm or shoulder blade of the dog interfere with their movement. She even said that if anyone in K9 or SAR work wants help designing a better harness, let her know. If anyone wants to take her up on it, I would. I got to talk with her afterwards and she knows her stuff.


I think many folks who do onlead trailing with their SAR dog use a nonrestrictive harness like they have used for AKC tracking dogs for decades (if not more-I still have a nonrestrictive nylon tracking harness from the early 80s). Similar to the picture you posted - many models in Bridgeport leather. 

The H harness is very quick to put on the dog (who is usually about ready to climb out of his skin to get to work), and has some sort of identification be it a SAR cross, team patch, or other logo and is handy when you are in an unsafe environment and want physical control of the dog but not his head. 

The main think folks want for SAR is identification across the shoulders/back. I used to use this shabrack .....http://www.ruffianspecialties.com/SARPG5.HTML....and it was perfect.....note-it was not designed for use with a trailing line..


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> I guess I am confused because it does not look like SAR but just having fun with the dog. What exactly are we supposed to be looking for?
> 
> You are right that many handlers, particularly, HR do NOT post videos because a defense attorney can twist those around - say an early training video is used - and they can point out all sorts of training problems that were resolved during ongoing training. I have an acquaintance who made the bad mistake of "reconstructing" a search for a jury by putting training aids where the finds were located and allowing them to videotape. Well it was pointed out by the defense that he was cueing the dog and, even though, it was not the actual search footage, it reflected badly on him.
> 
> ...


I go to the woods or the park when I have my dog wearing an SAR vest to climb boulders and jump over fallen trees. 

I have interchangable patches for when I do my other training at other places. I have:

Service Dog
Working Dog
Rescue
Search
Therapy
Assistance
Police K9
Security 
EDD
Tracking
Narcotics
Forensics
etc..

These cover my day to day training...


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## Jonathan Brown (May 11, 2011)

I agree. Vest goes on when the dog starts working, vest comes off when done. That's the standard practice of the teams I am familiar with. Wearing the vest should mean something to the dog, and playing around in a park with it on defeats that. As for another purpose of the vest, to identify that the dog is a SAR dog, I think it is unseemly to do that when not necessary.



Nancy Jocoy said:


> If I want my dog to jump over logs and on rocks etc, I just take him to the woods and he naturally does that for hours. As far as the vest, when I had an airscent dog, she only wore it when we were searching for someone.


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

First off, I don't know the Area I live in, nearly as good as I know Oswego County, which is a good hour and a half away from my place. Because of time issues, I use what I get and what I can find. It's not about jumping over the logs, it's about the Sequence and Directionals. She's learned that within two days. The size really doesn't matter. We all know that a Shepherd can jump higher than that but I don't have that available so I am using what I can find and those logs are on Ft.Drum. It's actually six logs in a row. I walk her to one end, put her into a long sit or long down, walk to the other side. Sometimes I only have her jump one log and then put her into a down. Then I have her jump another log and put her into a down and so on. It's about Distance, Control and Obedience. 

As for size, this is as high as she can go. 










As for the Vest. She's got an "In Training" Patch on it and I found that people don't approach her without my consent as long as she's wearing that vest. Most of the time they don't notice the SAR Patches at all because they are on the lower side. While the "In Training" Patch is visible at first sight since it's on top of the vest. So they actually think she's a "Service Dog" In Training because she's wearing a yellow vest with an In Training Patch. But I'd rather explain myself a hundred times instead of having to deal with unruly kids all the time. Unfortunately a lot of people in the US do NOT have common sense when it comes up to dogs. I've had it that people actually came up from behind me to touch her on the rear. How stupid is that? 

So whenever we go out she is wearing the "In Training" vest. 
As for the meaning, she is supposed to work with and without vest. Sometimes, she's just wearing her bell and that's it.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I just have a concern - I know there are different schools of thought - all this obedience and control - when is the dog out hunting and allowed to hunt naturally and get the experience to figure things out for herself?


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

Whenever we do search training, go on hikes, on walks, do hunt drive training. I don't interfere at all, don't say a single word, don't correct her... she can figure it out all herself. 

However, that training. With the jumping over the logs and then put her into a down, from the Distance, that is for SAR training too. At least I know I can put my dog into a down any time I want. 

See the Geese in the background? That is down at the Black River in Carthage. There is no better distraction than a bunch of geese (well, maybe a deer but this is as much as wild distraction I can find that won't run away the second we get out of the car). 

I know she can work around traffic, I know she works around people, other dogs...but I don't know what she does once she's out of sight and sees a squirrel. Well, I still don't know and you never will but at least I know she's working with me while those geese are around and she doesn't mind them beeing around. We can even play fetch, off leash around them. So it's not obedience all the time because sometimes I just play fetch about something that is distracting. 



It all serves a purpose.


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

ps: the sightseeing pics were for family and friends in Germany. Since pretty much anything goes on the German Blog (which is read by my mom and our friends) I put those pics in there so they can see a little of what we do in general on a daily basis, what we do for training, what it looks like over here... etc.


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