# Hard bites



## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

What makes a dog bite hard?

How do YOU teach a dog to bite harder?

How long can your dog bite without reducing bite pressure significantly?

Now...I know it doesn't matter that a dog bites SUPER hard, so long as he bites hard ENOUGH...

...but I'd rather have a dog that bites SUPER hard. Some masochistic decoys like it as well... :twisted:


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Andres Martin said:


> What makes a dog bite hard?
> 
> genetic make-up and training
> 
> ...


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

If the dog isn't biting hard enough then grab em by the balls.

:lol:

No, we went thru this with Cujo, I never thought he'd bite very hard, but we did a whole variety of exercises to get him to bite harder. Patrick Murray has a hidden sleeve that is a very annoying material... I used it as a regular sleeve for Cujo when we were starting bitework to find something he might enjoy biting... he wouldn't be able to hold a grip at all on the hidden sleeve material. I tried him on the sleeve playing/prey work a few months ago now that he's come a long way in his training and WOW does it hurt!! We did alot of different stuff with him, firstly, the whip really helped him get focus and motivation for bitework, but that doesn't do much for grip... when he bites the sleeve, I pull the leash tight... for the first sessions with my new trainer we put a leash on the handle on the sleeve n I would hold the end of Cujo's leash as tight as I could, he would hold the end of the leash tied to the sleeve and we'd both pull away from eachother while walking with Cujo... but kinda roll the pressure on the sleeve, to kinda "fake him out", i.e. if he's biting well, slack the line on the sleeve then pull it tight again, if his grip weakened when the sleeve went slack, the sleeve would be ripped outta his mouth and we'd go back to agitation, if he held on a suitable length of time I'd run him to the car. We also stepped up the seriousness in some of his training sessions, sometimes we make it easy on him/prey work, other times we give him hell and teach him if he doesn't hold on, the decoy gets worse, then end the session with a happy positive prey bite to put him up on a good note. We also tied him to a post (and I've posted this pic before) and taught him to hold on to the sleeve even when being pulled off the ground with 4 legs....










Then there's also box work, which we haven't done with Cujo yet, but seems to teach dogs increased grip very nicely...


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

A way we used to make a dog bite harder is hard on the decoy, but very effective. We used a thin arm wrap, when the dog bit, the decoy would roll the muscle in the forearm. It would telegraph through the sleeve and the dog, on most occasions would really put on the pressure. With many of todays modern sleeves you just don't get that feel, or actually the dogs don't get that feel. I don't do it any more, I'm paying the price now for having done it so often in my younger days. It does work though.

DFrost


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

I agree with Selena...

:roll: 

It's genetic for the MOST part.

You can ruin a hard biter, but you "almost" can't make a hard biter out of a soft biter. I say almost because there are tricks to improve the bite.

Dogs either have total commitment or not.

As an example, look at some of the tiny jaw muscles on some Malinois females, yet feel how hard some of them bite. It amazes me what commitment means in a dog.


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

> If the dog isn't biting hard enough then grab em by the balls.


SELENA! SELENA! Mike wrote, "balls." QUICK! You have to edit him!

hahahahahahahahahahahahaha!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Andres Martin said:


> > If the dog isn't biting hard enough then grab em by the balls.
> 
> 
> SELENA! SELENA! Mike wrote, "balls." QUICK! You have to edit him!
> ...


Hey, *I* almost did! But then I saw he had not said that other posters had NONE! :twisted: :twisted: :lol:


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## Paul Coffman (Jul 24, 2006)

so I CAN still say it then right? :lol: :wink:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Paul Coffman said:


> so I CAN still say it then right? :lol: :wink:


_

Well, gosh! Everyone else does! :lol: 


P.S. It was the intended insult Selena was editing, as I'm sure we all 
know. :twisted: But real cursing -- no-no. As Woody says: "Family 
site!" [-X _


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## Anne Jones (Mar 27, 2006)

I agree that most hard biting dogs come by the ability genetically. That's not to say that you can't screw up that kind of bite with bad work. I do think that it can happen. ALthough I have not had the need to train for poor bites......I am sure that there are ways to improve a bite, but I have not had to train for that, so I don't know how really effective that kind of training is. I have done bite tug & bite pillow work with both of my dogs but haven't done any other kind of bite improvement work. Both of my dogs have very hard bites. My 60 lb female surprizes most decoys the first time that they work her. They don't expect the committment to the bite that she makes. She bites as hard as many larger male dogs. She will also hang on & not let go of her bite until told to & even then she doesn't want to. You can walk around with her hanging off your sleeve or bite suit, she will not quit. I used to walk around with her hanging onto my clothes from when she was only 9 weeks old. She would jump up & bite my sweatshirt & hang on while I walked all over the yard or the house. She just would not ever let go until she had to or finally was just too tired to hang on anymore. My male has a very bone crushing hard bite & will never let go. You could walk around all day with him hanging on to you. There were some pics of him hanging onto Mike (Kitchen) a couple of weeks ago.(Blitz Rocks-Photo gallery- title) Mike walks around with him hanging on all the time. As Mike says: " Good Times ".


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

So do 100 lb. dogs bite harder than 70 lb. dogs? 

Do dogs with a lot of drive bite with more intensity than calmer dogs?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Patrick Murray said:


> So do 100 lb. dogs bite harder than 70 lb. dogs?
> 
> Do dogs with a lot of drive bite with more intensity than calmer dogs?


I don't know how much size makes a difference although the hardest biting dog I've ever had on a sleeve was a 160lb Presa. I COULD NOT slip the sleeve. I though he broke my bony old arm. 
After that, we've got a 75lb WG showline  GSD at the club that is a real crusher. 
I also don't think that a really high drive dog is necessesarily going to bite with more intensity then a calmer dog. 
Some dogs just have more  bite drive  . 
   Sorry, I just couldn't pass that one up.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I too, have a fairly small female that bites much harder than all my larger dogs. Size and weight could be considered, but without a 'commitment', don't really mean alot, I think. Here's a few notes I took on some studies I found which support the idea that strong grip is a genetic trait...

Studies in primate bite muscles...

While studying muscular dystrophy in humans, scientists tracked down a gene that expresses the powerful bite muscle. Bite muscle is the most powerful of the jaw closing muscles and completely encloses the skull in all non-human primates. The same gene was also active in a sample of human bite muscle, but the human gene has two missing base pairs in a key region of the gene. The muscle fibres in humans are smaller than those in other primates and exert less force on the skull, allowing it to grow and expand. Detailed genetic analysis suggests the human mutation occurred approximately 2.4 million years ago, soon after emerged the earliest known members of the genus **** - with smaller jaws, and larger brains.


Studies in humand hand grip strength...

Studies of hand grip strength in 1,757 Danish twin pairs aged 4596 years, found that this phenotype has a heritability of 4855%. This phenotype is correlated with muscular power in all age groups and with other muscular groups, and is a suitable phenotype for predicting mid- to late-life physical functioning.


I think you need a good combination of physical Capability, plus a strong nerved Commitment, both of which are largely genetically dependant.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

i too agree that "drive" has very little to do with bite strength. the hardest biting dogs i have taken have all been pretty large dogs. the hardest biting dog i ever took was about a 95 lb. GSD. medium drive dog. 2nd hardest biting dog was about a 90 lb. GSD. low drive dog. 3rd hardest was a 90 lb. GSD. medium drive...


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## Anne Jones (Mar 27, 2006)

My male has a bone crushing full, calm bite. He is 85 lbs & very high drive. My female has a very hard, full, calm bite. She is 62 lbs & extreme drive. She is a tuff little girl !! I have been told by the 2 decoys that take their bites that lb for lb my female has an equal if not harder bite than my male. I will take their work for it....I guess that I will never know for sure, since she will never be 85 lbs !!! So I think that genetics play a much bigger part than drive or size does. JMO


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