# Michael Ellis or Tom Rose?



## Sarah Best (Oct 3, 2010)

Im looking into a bunch of trainer schools and the two schools that seem to be most recommended are either The Micheal Ellis School For Dog Trainers or The Tom Rose School.

For the past few weeks Ive been really trying to find out everything I can about Michael Ellis and from what I have read and seen from his videos I really like his methods. I also really like the kind of different way he runs his school.

A few days ago someone on another forum asked me to help find some information on the Tom Rose School for them, i had never really heard of them before them but when I was looking up info on them, it seems it is a highly recommenced school. I tried to find some more info on the methods used there but all I really found was that they tend to do a lot with shock collars.

So now I want the opinions of people (a lot more experienced them me) about which school would be better to attend for someone looking to go more into the working dog type training and I would like to know both the pros and cons of each school.

Also i would love to hear about any other trainer schools anybody wants to recommend.


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## Scott Williams (Aug 24, 2009)

I would want to know where you see yourself in relation to dogs in the future before suggesting a school. There are great detection dog training schools, positive reinforcement only schools, "old school" schools, Electric collar "schools", etc.. It will probably be your biggest investment if not in the top two or three with regard to a dog training career. If you want to do this for a living then I would get as highly specialized as possible and work within a specific niche. An example of that might be detection. If you simply want to learn about dog training and dog behavior, try to find a well rounded educational experience that understands all methods of training and doesn't just sell a system. Just some thoughts.


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## Ashley Allstun (Aug 8, 2009)

I've been to TRS and it all depends on what you want and how you like to train. TRS is definitely a more traditional school, but they do use markers and food/toy rewards. They go through a LOT of stuff. If you want to instruct obedience classes, I think TRS is probably the best place you can go. You get a lot of time working with pet dogs and experience calling classes, giving private lessons, and helping individuals during classes. They do use E-collars quite extensively. I really like the way they test, though. You must actually pass "real" tests, like the AKC novice, AKC open, BH, SchH2, etc., etc. It is a lot to do, and be prepared to get two new puppies for the class. 

Michael Ellis seems like something you'd go to if you were looking to get into competitive stuff (SchH, ring, etc.) with your own dogs, or looking to train other peoples' dogs for that. If you're looking to train pet dogs, I don't know how much good it would do you. It's a lot different working with sport dogs who are very food or toy motivated, and then working with pet dogs who don't really give a crap about anything.


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## Sarah Best (Oct 3, 2010)

Thank you for the info. In a school im looking more towards training working dogs in general and then after that(when I have a better idea of what kinda of thing a really want to do) I would like to be a intern (or something like that) for a trainer that is already working in what ever specific thing I would like to go into.


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## Juan Galvis (Nov 22, 2010)

Michael Ellis hands down. By the time you do all of his courses you will have enough knowledge to work with all kinds of dogs not just protections sports. I have gone to all of his courses and can tell you that the guy is a genius. I have also met Tom Rose students who attended the Michael Ellis school and wished they had not spent all their money at Rose's school. Michael teaches every technique there is available in dog training. From marker training to aversives he covers the whole spectrum. Take the 2 week intense ob class and find for yourself, is the best spent money ever.


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## Shawn Reed (Nov 9, 2010)

I agree with Juan!! All I can say is Michael is a very talented handler and just as good a teacher(which is hard to find both). I have been out to his school and I feel it has definitely given me a significant edge and has changed my life as a dog trainer for the best!!! I felt I got my money's worth the first day. I have yet to find someone with as much knowledge. When you ask a question, you get a VERY detailed answer. I like his balanced approach with food, toys and corrections.


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## Ashley Allstun (Aug 8, 2009)

Shawn Reed said:


> I agree with Juan!! All I can say is Michael is a very talented handler and just as good a teacher(which is hard to find both). I have been out to his school and I feel it has definitely given me a significant edge and has changed my life as a dog trainer for the best!!! I felt I got my money's worth the first day. I have yet to find someone with as much knowledge. When you ask a question, you get a VERY detailed answer. I like his balanced approach with food, toys and corrections.


This is great to hear. I've been wanting to go but just have to get the funds. I have his DVDs but I'm sure its nothing compared to learning in person. It wouldn't be so bad if it was just the cost of the classes, but driving all the way out to California and then having to pay for a room there. It ends up being more than the course!


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## Shawn Reed (Nov 9, 2010)

Ashley Allstun said:


> This is great to hear. I've been wanting to go but just have to get the funds. I have his DVDs but I'm sure its nothing compared to learning in person. It wouldn't be so bad if it was just the cost of the classes, but driving all the way out to California and then having to pay for a room there. It ends up being more than the course!


Ashley, I hear ya on the cost. I live in Pennsylvania, so by the time you pay for the course, airfare, rental car & gas, lodging and food, it starts to get pricey. However, it is DAMN worth it!!! You will not be disappointed. Like Juan said, he is a highly intelligent man. He's also VERY humble and down to earth, a real cool guy. There isn't belittling or that nose up in the air stuff you commonly see in the dog training world. You'll walk away with a wealth of knowledge. What I love about his teaching is that you learn "WHY" things work. His system is great, it's clear communication and the dogs learn what their job is in a transparent manner. I also think his ways of developing dogs help get them to their max potential.

Save up and go !!! You'll be glad you did!!


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Sarah, having knowledge is power but nobody is gonna teach you to train every type of dog in a few weeks. So much has to do with your own ability. I know people that could go to these classes 3 times in a row and still couldn't train a dog. I have seen people that have attended Tom Rose and their hopeless, there head is full of half truths and they don't know if they are coming or going. You do not become a handler by going through a coarse and getting a certificate. I'm sure you can learn a lot from Michael as he's a very good teacher and it will give you a good start but you could easily learn a lot about training from attending seminars of various people and watching DVDs. Just don't think you are gonna get out of class and have all the answers to setup shop.


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## Juan Galvis (Nov 22, 2010)

I agree with Timothy knowledge is great but not everybody has the talent to be a dog trainer. There is people I know first hand have spent lots $$$$ who were classmates of mine at Michael's that struggle and you can really tell they lack the natural ability and wont ever be great trainers. I have also seen people who you thought would never be great dog trainers but with dedication and hard work became excellent handlers. At the end the race with your own self no matter who you choose to show you the ropes. I live in North Carolina and have made 5 trips to California to train with Michael. You will get him and no one else. Very accessible guy, down to earth and with a sincere purpose to make you a great trainer. The money I have invested in going there have been repaid many times over. I know I sound like Michael's PR guy, but honestly he is WORLD CLASS. Take the intense OB class and you will never look back.


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## Shawn Reed (Nov 9, 2010)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Sarah, having knowledge is power but nobody is gonna teach you to train every type of dog in a few weeks. So much has to do with your own ability. I know people that could go to these classes 3 times in a row and still couldn't train a dog. I have seen people that have attended Tom Rose and their hopeless, there head is full of half truths and they don't know if they are coming or going. You do not become a handler by going through a coarse and getting a certificate. I'm sure you can learn a lot from Michael as he's a very good teacher and it will give you a good start but you could easily learn a lot about training from attending seminars of various people and watching DVDs. Just don't think you are gonna get out of class and have all the answers to setup shop.


I agree, you have to get the practical experience by just working dogs, period. But a good school would be a good starting point. Then volunteering at a shelter and working dogs for the practical portion will give hands on experience.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I will first say that what you get out of a training school depends on you more then the school so no doubt both schools create both good and bad trainers.
Having lived in the St. Louis area all my life I will say that I've seen a fair amount of TR students and a few graduates. I've competed in AKC OB against a number of the students and I was not impressed with the attitudes/demeanor of the dogs.
To many people in ALL phases of dog training learn to do only what they are taught (how) and never really comprehend what goes with it (the why) or what goes on in the dog's head.
Michael Ellis, based only on his DVDs, to me seems to be at the top of the game when it comes to explaining the hows and whys. That's where he's impressed me the most in addition to his methods.
I also believe the the Ellis method helps you understand the dog's behavior more so then just having the dog do as you command. 
This is JMO and not a tear down on anyone's particular methods.


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## Sarah Best (Oct 3, 2010)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Sarah, having knowledge is power but nobody is gonna teach you to train every type of dog in a few weeks. So much has to do with your own ability. I know people that could go to these classes 3 times in a row and still couldn't train a dog. I have seen people that have attended Tom Rose and their hopeless, there head is full of half truths and they don't know if they are coming or going. You do not become a handler by going through a coarse and getting a certificate. I'm sure you can learn a lot from Michael as he's a very good teacher and it will give you a good start but you could easily learn a lot about training from attending seminars of various people and watching DVDs. Just don't think you are gonna get out of class and have all the answers to setup shop.



Trust me, I am under no impression that just because I attend a few weeks of classes and obtain a certificate that its going to make me a "master trainer". Going to ME school is just one of the many stepping stones I will take to hopefully get to me ultimate goal.

I wont be attending any school for quite awhile and I plan to do a lot in that time. As of right now im still young so I haven't had a opportunity to get that much hands on training with other dogs, I have worked at my local shelter helping take care of the dogs there and watching/working with the trainer there. I also train my current dog in agility and I plan on getting a working dog to compete in schutzhund within the next few years, so that dog will also kind of be my stepping stone into the working dog field. And then I will just see where I go from there.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Bob I agree but for some people theory and why is confusing. I'm not a advocate or PR person for Fred Hassen but I'll give him credit, he can train a dog and he has no idea why it works but he can get results. 

Knowing what doesn't work is just as good as knowing what does work. I think exposure and hands on training is the key. Exposure to as many different trainers as possible to fill your tool chest cause what works on one dog doesn't give you the same results on another all the time. 

Theory talk on paper is useless to some people, they just don't get it, and that's fine. Gotta find what works best for you and don't be afraid to deviate and invent.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Theory and why often makes the difference between someone that can train a dog and someone who is a dog trainer. ;-)


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Sounds like a good start Sarah!


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> Theory and why often makes the difference between someone that can train a dog and someone who is a dog trainer. ;-)


Is this a riddle? I'm offended and you must be a fool. LOL
Wait you just called Fred a dog trainer!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Is this a riddle? I'm offended and you must be a fool. LOL
> Wait you just called Fred a dog trainer!



:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: Now's my time to bow out gracefully before I have to contemplate my error in that. :-D:-D;-)


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## Dean Campbell (Feb 15, 2010)

Here is my two cents,

I've been "into" protection dog sports for some time (10+yrs), and have a "feel" for training. However, when my wife got a new pup and wanted to train it, I could'nt teach her to train the dog. She could hand me the leash and I could make it work, but them when she tried it didn't work so well. As you can imagine...tensing were building on the home front. I look into all the trainers "out there" and thought Michael Ellis would be a good fit.

Sent her and her now young dog to a two-week OB training with Ellis, and she and her dog came back smiling. She started teaching me things.

A few months later my wife and I both went out to study with Ellis for protection. Mind-blowing.....I have gone to many training camps, weekend, ect with top training and nothing compared. He is will show all the other methods, then show you the one her prefers today (and explain why). Ellis Rocks !! He is down to earth, humble, patient and a genius.

Done,
Dean


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## Junior Johnson (Mar 19, 2010)

Tim, couldnt agree with you more. Obviously both of these guys are gifted trainers that clearly get results, but the fact remains that just like them, we have to start somewhere. What school did they go to or where did they get their training? More than likely, they were mentored by very good trainers and took what they learned to a higher level. My thoughts are that you should go to different clubs, seminars, buy DVD's and if you are able, get in a bite suit or put on a sleeve now and then in order to further understand the decoy side of training. Just the fact that you are trying to educate yourself and are asking for opinions on reputable training schools is a great place to start. Best of luck.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Is this a riddle? I'm offended and you must be a fool. LOL
> Wait you just called Fred a dog trainer!



Yoda! I got the answer, I got the answer! !!!MARKETING!!! It has nothing to do with good training! :grin::grin::grin: \\/ \\/ 


Dean, good explanation!
I've been to Flinks, Ivan B and a bajillion AKC seminars going back to the early 80s but Elllis is definitely on my bucket list!
Maybe even a trip to train!


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Yes Michael was mentored by Ivan B.
Always great to be around champions. 
Sarah, did I mention there are 3 champions in Ringsport putting on a seminar in Canada. :smile:


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> Yoda! I got the answer, I got the answer! !!!MARKETING!!! It has nothing to do with good training! :grin::grin::


Sly dog


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

hi newb speaking here, sometimes newbs come in with less built in biases n loyalties. i think you could learn a lot by first studying all the big names with different styles n try n understand why they have adopted certain methods that work for them, lets face it there is more than one way to get a result.

secondly you have to understand yourself n pick a style that suits your personality, timing, coordination etc otherwise it just won't work. you also have to look at what you are prepared to do to get a result eg there are a lot of good trainers that use e-collars straight up just to do basic pet training with young dogs - that would never suit me so i am not interetsed in knowing what they know regardless of the results. certainly pays to try n understand their position if if you don't like it.

i have never titled a dog n now that i have seen it all i am not that interested in it but its all ood learning n can only increase your understanding n better yr realtionship with yr dog regardless of whatever it is yr are training for, eg particular sport, pet etc.

out of all the tapes i watched i will be sticking with ME style mainly because i like the guys attitude and laid back character.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> i have never titled a dog n now that i have seen it all i am not that interested


Rotflmao!!!!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Be nice! :evil:


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

nah don't be nice, say what you think, hopefully i will get more interested in yr comments than whatever it is you do


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

YES, be nice!!!!!
This stuff get out of hand to quickly.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Be nice! :evil:


That was nice! :twisted:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> nah don't be nice, say what you think, *hopefully i will get more interested in yr comments than whatever it is you do*



Uninterested? Then don't read it. :roll:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I think the op has the answer to her original question.


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