# He loves biting me



## Kevin McGrenera (Feb 22, 2009)

Not full mouth or a deployment bite, but my 15 month old Mali just loves to play bite and wrestle with me. My question is, am I messing the dog up? He's a police dog, and im worried that letting him mess with me might raise questions when I send him for a real bite. Will he bite full mouth, nice and deep like he does on a sleeve or suit? Im sure Im being paranoid, but just wonder what you guys think about a handler and police dog messing around like kids when we are at home and not on duty..........I just dont want to screw a dog up who is like a son to me in a profession where dogs are just equipment and are easily replaceable...........


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

Kevin McGrenera said:


> but just wonder what you guys think about a handler and police dog messing around like kids when we are at home and not on duty


Thats just it, you are at home and off duty. I don't know how long the two of you have been together, how much you have bonded, or what type of dog he is but there should not be a problem, he should be able to tell what is play with you and what work is. I play like this with mine. He'll mouth me softly as to hold my arm for a second. I have no fear of him hurting me or any doubt from this that he'll still do his job. They're not machines, they are still dogs at heart.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Kevin McGrenera said:


> Not full mouth or a deployment bite, but my 15 month old Mali just loves to play bite and wrestle with me. My question is, am I messing the dog up? He's a police dog, and im worried that letting him mess with me might raise questions when I send him for a real bite. Will he bite full mouth, nice and deep like he does on a sleeve or suit? Im sure Im being paranoid, but just wonder what you guys think about a handler and police dog messing around like kids when we are at home and not on duty..........I just dont want to screw a dog up who is like a son to me in a profession where dogs are just equipment and are easily replaceable...........


I met a couple(husband and wife) last year at the cargo area of the airport picking up 2 young Mals, they were very nice to talk with, both officers, and told me they were picking up 2 young police dogs.

I asked them, Do you know that for a fact ?


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## Kevin McGrenera (Feb 22, 2009)

jay lyda said:


> Thats just it, you are at home and off duty. I don't know how long the two of you have been together, how much you have bonded, or what type of dog he is but there should not be a problem, he should be able to tell what is play with you and what work is. I play like this with mine. He'll mouth me softly as to hold my arm for a second. I have no fear of him hurting me or any doubt from this that he'll still do his job. They're not machines, they are still dogs at heart.


we have been together since october, he does the same thing, mouth me softly and let go. I have no doubt about doing his job, except apprehension. We have done very little muzzle work and at his age im not 100 percent certain he would bite someone. He only "play" bites with me, he wont do it towards my wife or child (good thing). Hes such a good obedient dog that im at the point that im paranoid about phucking him up...........


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## Kevin McGrenera (Feb 22, 2009)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I met a couple(husband and wife) last year at the cargo area of the airport picking up 2 young Mals, they were very nice to talk with, both officers, and told me they were picking up 2 young police dogs.
> 
> I asked them, Do you know that for a fact ?


Im sorry, I dont understand your question; do I know for a fact he is a police dog? Yes, I went through ten weeks of police K9 school with him........


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

My young boy likes to bite me, too. When I let him out of the crate, my forearm or bicep is the first target. One day I forgot to put my arm down letting him out, and all I can say is, _better the arm than the crotch!_


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

My female thinks I'm a ear of corn. She puts her teeth right against my clothed arm and starts this rapid squirrel bite kinda thing.

Not sure if I should really let her do that!! :lol:


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## Alyssa Myracle (Aug 4, 2008)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> My female thinks I'm a ear of corn. She puts her teeth right against my clothed arm and starts this rapid squirrel bite kinda thing.
> 
> Not sure if I should really let her do that!! :lol:


 
Aww, she's grooming ya!


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Alyssa Myracle said:


> Aww, she's grooming ya!


If she catches me just right it become a pinch bite and hurts like hell. :-D


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

A combination of excitement and affection, I always figured. My boy's mother would do that too, so I'm sure that's where he gets it from. Crazy for bitework though, so it can't be all that bad, I figure.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Sounds like the buzzer was hit before I could get in...we are talking about a working dog? And since you are off duty the dog knows the difference. Do you and you wife horseplay? it isn't a domestic thing, it's easy FUN. Dogs regardless of use do the same thing. My male Bouvier bites at my fingers and does so as if it were a game and not pack positioning. 

If the dog is really working for a leadership role, you would feel it. Today, we worked on "out" commands and never had an issue. He would never out if the bad guy hollered it. I don't see an issue in play biting as long as there isn't any role ownership issues. 

Sounds like a dog that LOVES you and wants to bond with you...


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## Kevin McGrenera (Feb 22, 2009)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Sounds like the buzzer was hit before I could get in...we are talking about a working dog? And since you are off duty the dog knows the difference. Do you and you wife horseplay? it isn't a domestic thing, it's easy FUN. Dogs regardless of use do the same thing. My male Bouvier bites at my fingers and does so as if it were a game and not pack positioning.
> 
> If the dog is really working for a leadership role, you would feel it. Today, we worked on "out" commands and never had an issue. He would never out if the bad guy hollered it. I don't see an issue in play biting as long as there isn't any role ownership issues.
> 
> Sounds like a dog that LOVES you and wants to bond with you...


My wife and I really dont horseplay in front of the dog, if you know what I mean But your explanation was perfect that the dog loves me and wants to bond with me, thats what I was looking for........he is my shadow and loves to please me, I just wanted to make sure that play biting was o.k...........


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Kevin my Bouviers use their mouth to "talk" to me and their teeth NEVER push down on the skin. Now the flip to all this as I see it would be in OB. If the dog is biting the leash or hand as if to say,
"I ain't doing none of this stuff." Then I would have an issue. 

A month ago, my male got excited and popped me in the face, top of the nose, with his teeth. I had blood rolling from that thin skin cut. He didn't get beat or corrected, it wasn't like he was trying to be mean...accidents happen. 

Now for real bite work, all of the decoys say his bite power is hard and full. I will take their word on that.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Kevin McGrenera said:


> I have no doubt about doing his job, except apprehension. We have done very little muzzle work and at his age im not 100 percent certain he would bite someone. .........


this is the only point that would concern me. Dogs are dogs, dogs like to play. As long as they can tell the difference between play and work, no big deal. Your concern however, would be of serious concern with me. I know my pistol will function as design; I want to be certain of my dog as well. To that end, I'd make sure the dog doesn't think that the other guy is playing as well.

DFrost


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## Kevin McGrenera (Feb 22, 2009)

David Frost said:


> this is the only point that would concern me. Dogs are dogs, dogs like to play. As long as they can tell the difference between play and work, no big deal. Your concern however, would be of serious concern with me. I know my pistol will function as design; I want to be certain of my dog as well. To that end, I'd make sure the dog doesn't think that the other guy is playing as well.
> 
> DFrost


Ive done civil agitation with him, where he was backtied and the decoy had no equipment on and he was still lunging forward and wanted to take a piece of him.......He just didnt seem so sure when I had him in a muzzle, he would only target areas where the covering of a bite sleeve was presented.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Personally, I feel the back-tie can give some dogs a false sense of security. I'd try some on-leash, chase and drop leash bites with the muzzle on. Let the dog know he can hit the back, leg or whatever presents itself. 

DFrost


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Also on the frontal attack, have your decoy to put both his hands behind his back giving only a target of the chest, shoulders or bicepts. Have him walk straigh into the dog.

( I don't like ground fighting the dog in a muzzle, you never know who might end up on the ground.) LOL


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Jerry Lyda said:


> Also on the frontal attack, have your decoy to put both his hands behind his back giving only a target of the chest, shoulders or bicepts. Have him walk straigh into the dog.
> 
> ( I don't like ground fighting the dog in a muzzle, you never know who might end up on the ground.) LOL


Yeah, I know, but it sure does increase the excitement when you are just watching, ha ha.

Good point about the frontal attack.

DFrost


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## Kevin McGrenera (Feb 22, 2009)

great advise guys, I appreciate it!!!!!!


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Kevin McGrenera said:


> great advise guys, I appreciate it!!!!!!


You don't know how refreshing it is to see someone appreciate the advice rather than ask and then argue.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Kevin McGrenera said:


> Im sorry, I dont understand your question; do I know for a fact he is a police dog? Yes, I went through ten weeks of police K9 school with him........


Dude I think what I think he is getting at… I don’t do nothing but make stupid comments on this forum, but I think it’s safe to say 10 weeks don’t make a police dog or handler. At least I don’t think? Can someone explain further to me?


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Chris McDonald said:


> Dude I think what I think he is getting at… I don’t do nothing but make stupid comments on this forum, but I think it’s safe to say 10 weeks don’t make a police dog or handler. At least I don’t think? Can someone explain further to me?


I didn't mean that at all, I didn't know he went through training and am in no position to judge what he does.

I thought he might have been in the same position the young couple I spoke to were in, it sounds like maybe he isn't. Sorry for any misunderstanding.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I didn't mean that at all, I didn't know he went through training and am in no position to judge what he does.
> 
> I thought he might have been in the same position the young couple I spoke to were in, it sounds like maybe he isn't. Sorry for any misunderstanding.


 
Real sorry Gerry I did not mean to speak for you or put you on the spot….So it is possible to have a k9 ready for the street in 10 weeks? I understand training does always continue, but does a police k9 go from no training to the street in 10 weeks? I take it the same goes for the handler?


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Ask David Frost or the other people that do this as a career.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

David Frost said:


> Yeah, I know, but it sure does increase the excitement when you are just watching, ha ha.
> 
> Good point about the frontal attack.
> 
> DFrost


How about the poor decoy and missed frontals? And the fans did the wave~~~~~~~~~~~~~


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> How about the poor decoy and missed frontals? And the fans did the wave~~~~~~~~~~~~~


It's one of the benefits of being the boss, I don't do that much decoying anymore. I've earned my stripes/bars and scars. I now watch and say things like; that had to hurt or that's going to leave a mark etc.

DFrost


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## Kevin McGrenera (Feb 22, 2009)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I didn't mean that at all, I didn't know he went through training and am in no position to judge what he does.
> 
> I thought he might have been in the same position the young couple I spoke to were in, it sounds like maybe he isn't. Sorry for any misunderstanding.


This misconception was on my part, I "think" that I understood what you were saying, but wasnt quite certain. I meant no disrespect........


Chris McDonald said:


> Real sorry Gerry I did not mean to speak for you or put you on the spot….So it is possible to have a k9 ready for the street in 10 weeks? I understand training does always continue, but does a police k9 go from no training to the street in 10 weeks? I take it the same goes for the handler?


Yes and No, 10 weeks gives you the basics of what you need. From what I gather, and maybe David Frost can give his insight; that 10 weeks is your basic building blocks of K9 police work. It is your job from there on to utilize your 16 hours per month, or 32 in my case, to train with other handlers and expand your K9. Do I personally believe any green dog is ready for ANY situation after 10 weeks of K9 school? Hell no, but even with a human, I dont think any cop or trooper is ready for ANY situation after 26 weeks of the academy. The only dogs that I "personally" (which has little weight in the K9 community, im green as hell) think are K9 street ready as you described it, are dogs that had previous work in them. You know, the guy that got lucky and picked up a ring dog that had all the bite/obedience/tracking already in him and they furthered him in 10 weeks of K9 school. Even after 10 weeks of training, I find myself learning new things every training session. I work with all types of people, even outside the law enforcement field to see what works best for the dog. I do some type of obedience, tracking, dope or article work every shift; my departments premise is simply, train with who you feel works best for the dog; you know the standards that your dog with have to certify to twice a year, and if he doesnt, its your ass.........


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Our patrol class is 14 weeks. The dog will meet the basic objectives required for certification at that point. Is he as good as he's going to get?, Certainly not. Like was mentioned, a rookie comes out of the academy with the basic knowledge and meeting minimum requirements. Learning is a life-long process. the same applied to a dog.

DFrost


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## Kristina Senter (Apr 4, 2006)

Just to make a quick note about your initial question regarding your dog biting on you...
IMO, just because the dog understands this is play does not mean it is always ok. If you're wrestling and playing with your dog and he mouths at you a few times, its no big deal. If however you are encouraging him to bite you by teasing him or encouraging prey-behavior with your hands or arms and playing a bite-based game (can't count how many times I have seen this), it is a very bad thing. Allowing a dog to re-direct ANY frustration onto you, even if in play, WILL bite you an the arse, perhaps literally. 

Likewise, it puts the handler too close to "playmate" (your buddy may have at best an equal amout of say in your actions) and not "leader" (who'se opinion is not up for debate). It is too hard for a green handler to identify subtle changes in the dogs psychology to determine who is playing with who. Problems often arise with how to tell the dog that gets a little overworked when you are done playing and the dog is not and why even as little as a couple of seconds in this situation can be a catalyst to a bigger problem. 
Me personally, I do not encourage a dog biting their handler, even if in play.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

So David and company, what are the requirements. Are they set out online somewhere or is it sorta department by department. Do you ever have dogs that make it through certification, yet for some reason or another don't make it as actual street dogs?

Terrasita


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> what are the requirements. Are they set out online somewhere or is it sorta department by department. Do you ever have dogs that make it through certification, yet for some reason or another don't make it as actual street dogs?
> 
> Terrasita


Our requirements are written standards. they do, however vary from department to department. There are several certification organizations, ie, United State Police Canine and North American Police Working Dog, among other. For our department it's broken down into major groups such as Obediance, Controlled Agression, Detection (air-scent/tracking), building search. Each group is broken down into sub-groups ie; Obediance - on and off leash, confidence course. Each sub-group contains critical and semi-critical tasks. The dog team is measured against these ratings and it's pass/fail. Either the dog did it, or he didn't. When the dog has met the required standard, he's certified and ready for the street. While working, dogs are required 16 hours per month inservice training. All the groups and sub-groups must be worked within a 90 day period. While we certainly try to avoid situations where a dog makes it through school and fails on the street, it does happen. We really try to replicate any pressure situation that may happen, but one just never knows for sure until it's faced with reality. Depending on what happened, a dog rarely gets a second chance. 

DFrost


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Thanks David.

I think its interesting that the dog develops further with situational experience. Hadn't thought of that in the police dog context. So when you get the young green dog, has he been started in the training other than some preliminary bite work to guage his suitability for the work? It does seem like a lot to get done in 14 weeks.

Terrasita


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Thanks David.
> 
> It does seem like a lot to get done in 14 weeks.
> 
> Terrasita


It is, but keep in mind, it's 5 days a week, each dog will be worked as much as possible. If the dog isn't going to cut it, hopefully that can be seen rather quickly. Once controlled aggression (our fancy term for bite work) is started, it's a very motivating part of the training and helps offset some of the less motivating parts of training. Scenarios can be conducted using more than one task. Such as; a building search can be turned into a track ( or vice versa), and then into a controlled aggression exercise with/without a bite. It keeps training fun, and dog really into it. 

DFrost


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