# What do you look for in a green dog / pup?



## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Posting on here for the first time. I am from southern Ontario Canada. I am a member at a local Schutzhund club. Im between dogs atm. Last dog was a nerve bag so she has been put up and the search for a new dog is on. Have already seen a few dogs (GSD), hope to have one within the next two weeks. 
I am looking for a dog that can be a family dog, guardian and serious competitor in Schutzhund or any other sport I choose to pursue, Ring, PSA, etc..

I am wondering what do you all look for when you are looking at a young dog (8months-2years) or a pup. 

What are some tests you preform on the potential dog / pup?
What are red flags you look for?

Basically how do you assess the potential talent? Just curious what peoples different methods are.


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

I should also mention on a personal note that in my personal search I have used the following criteria. Have seen two young dogs so far.

-Only interested in working line GSD's from breeders that have a proven track record. 
-Health Guarentees
-Looking for a stable confident dog. Doesnt startle at sudden noise movement, no shying, reactivity, can handle being touched without stress etc.
-Has play drive was using a tug and ball on string, does the dog want the ball? If he is tugging is he phased by me touching his head, back etc. If I get the toy/tug away from him does he keep trying to get it back

Just some of the things I look for. Any further tips advice would be appreciated.


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

You already mentioned ball drive/prey which is good. In addition I would look for food drive, sound sensitivity, recovery time from say put him on a table and shake the table, response to pain (toe pinch) etc. Anything questionable, walk away. There are plenty of fish in the ocean and you already washed out a dog so choose very very carefully.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Based on what I've seen lately, I'll really hone in on my environment testing the next litter I test.

1. sound.
2. new and novel things in the environment
3. change of environment adaptation


I generally don't want the recovery puppy. I want the one that doesn't react or notice it in the first place.

T


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

I must be a real simpleton when it comes to looking at pups.... 

1-bloodline.
2-bellybutton may not be herniated.
3-Depening on gender, balls in the right place.

All those tests that are mentioned, I don't do any of them. I go and visit, look at the litter, grab the one that has the stockiest build and biggest head, put it in the car, and leave. 

Test, although they might be usefull in some instances, can not perpare the pup for the owner or the life it will live. 

The best pup from the litter could give the poorest performance where as the pup you might have never picked could turn out to be a natural champion. It's not what you see that matters, its what you teach and how you teach it! All the courage in the world wont survive in the wrong hands. 

A lot of people seem to forget, the biggest influence for a dog is the person holding its leash. That is one thing you can not screen for when you are looking at a litter of pups but it is the most important part to keep in mind. JMO.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Alice Bezemer said:


> I must be a real simpleton when it comes to looking at pups....
> 
> 1-bloodline.
> 2-bellybutton may not be herniated.
> ...


+1

Puppy testing is overrated IMO
I look for titled parents and then I choose the puppy that connects to me. The one that will come over and crawl into my lap. I choose the one that wants to please me not himself.
I don't want a hard headed dog I'm going to have to fight with the rest of his life


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Welcome, Haz,

Please post an intro here http://www.WorkingDogForum.com/vBulletin/f20/ before any other posts. Thanks!

Some of your first lines here would be what you would put in the intro, but a post to the bio/intro forum is required.


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## lannie dulin (Sep 4, 2012)

Thomas Barriano said:


> +1
> 
> Puppy testing is overrated IMO
> I look for titled parents and then I choose the puppy that connects to me. The one that will come over and crawl into my lap. I choose the one that wants to please me not himself.
> I don't want a hard headed dog I'm going to have to fight with the rest of his life


 
Lol, don't get a Presa then. That discribes them pretty well.


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Welcome, Haz,
> 
> Please post an intro here http://www.WorkingDogForum.com/vBulletin/f20/ before any other posts. Thanks!
> 
> Some of your first lines here would be what you would put in the intro, but a post to the bio/intro forum is required.


Sorry my bad I just posted in the intro section.


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Faisal Khan said:


> You already mentioned ball drive/prey which is good. In addition I would look for food drive, sound sensitivity, recovery time from say put him on a table and shake the table, response to pain (toe pinch) etc. Anything questionable, walk away. There are plenty of fish in the ocean and you already washed out a dog so choose very very carefully.


 

Lol faisal you put your finger on it, Im almost gun shy this time around. This is why if possible I want something around a year old so I can have a better idea how its going to turn out.
Do you pinch between the toes or the toe itself?
Also, what do you consider high ball / prey drive? How do you measure it?

One of the males I saw that I am leaning towards, about 14 months old was into the ball and string toy. Would tug for it. If I made him miss he would keep coming for it, almost got my hand a few times..lol. If tugging he didnt seem phased by having his head touched or his body. He wasnt out of control for it though, he wasnt screaming for it or anything. He clearly wanted it and when I would let him win he would carry it around. When the ball was stepped on he was digging around the foot trying to pull it out. Im not sure how much tug or ball play was done with him prior to me looking at him.
Other then that seemed real confident and relaxed. Had his nose to the ground a lot and was clearly following scent trails. Didnt mind being touched all over..


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

+1 i don't tst pups. I want the most independent one in the litter


Alice Bezemer said:


> I must be a real simpleton when it comes to looking at pups....
> 
> 1-bloodline.
> 2-bellybutton may not be herniated.
> ...


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Alice!!! Good to see you girl, r u a bit better? How is Caylinn doing?


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## Peter Cho (Apr 21, 2010)

Haz Othman said:


> Posting on here for the first time. I am from southern Ontario Canada. I am a member at a local Schutzhund club. Im between dogs atm. Last dog was a nerve bag so she has been put up and the search for a new dog is on. Have already seen a few dogs (GSD), hope to have one within the next two weeks.
> I am looking for a dog that can be a family dog, guardian and serious competitor in Schutzhund or any other sport I choose to pursue, Ring, PSA, etc..
> 
> I am wondering what do you all look for when you are looking at a young dog (8months-2years) or a pup.
> ...


First and most importantly, I would ask your training director, not a forum. He/she would be the best source of clear direction.

Second, as proven by studies, there is NO correlation between ability to pick a good pup vs a poor one at 8 weeks. You can only go by parents, grandparents and pedigree. That is a fact. I believe there is a doctorate thesis on this precise topic by Dr. Gabi Hoffmann. 

You want to do schutzhund, go to people that win and proven producers..............not just sch 3 (because it really does not show you anything), but kennel that have produced dogs that went to the WUSV. That would be pretty obvious.

With a GSD, you cannot tell from the pup. Come three years old, the dog could be TOTALLY different. Brutally slow to mature and harder to bring out. A malinois, you know exactly what you got by 9 months or so. 

BEST of luck!!!!!

Peter C
www.actionk9.ca


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## Peter Cho (Apr 21, 2010)

take a boo at 
http://vomhausbergblick.com/
and vom dragonhaus

Results are the best proof.

Peter Cho
www.actionk9.ca


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Alice!!! Good to see you girl, r u a bit better? How is Caylinn doing?


Doing splendid! One of the sweetest females with a temper I have ever had :lol: she is something else, Selena! PM coming your way! (don't want to clutter the topic)


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Peter Cho said:


> First and most importantly, I would ask your training director, not a forum. He/she would be the best source of clear direction.
> 
> Second, as proven by studies, there is NO correlation between ability to pick a good pup vs a poor one at 8 weeks. You can only go by parents, grandparents and pedigree. That is a fact. I believe there is a doctorate thesis on this precise topic by Dr. Gabi Hoffmann.
> 
> ...


 
Completely mis-states what has been SAID about Gabi Hoffman's study. I have yet to be able to find a copy of it in terms of what was tested but I think it had me to do with the Volhard way of testing and ranking certain traits. Puts a lot of faith in working line pedigrees as dominant for producing what the parents and grandparent's are. 

T


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## Peter Cho (Apr 21, 2010)

Well, I train with G Hoffman. So, I will ask to clarify. But I doubt I am wrong. 

you cannot tell a good pup from just looking at the pup at 8 weeks. The best indicator is pedigree and reputation of breeder (what they have produced).


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Peter Cho said:


> Well, I train with G Hoffman. So, I will ask to clarify. But I doubt I am wrong.
> 
> you cannot tell a good pup from just looking at the pup at 8 weeks. The best indicator is pedigree and reputation of breeder (what they have produced).


Better yet, I'd love to see a full copy. That study has been talked about on the internet on multiple forums for several years. Recently Steve Burger posted clarifications but I can't find them so going off memory. I have yet to know a breeder that produces working dogs that doesn't test their puppies in some fashion, even Lance Collins and Gabi Hoffman. If memory serves me, I believe the study referenced the Volhard type testing scheme, which I admit is vague in that it ranks certani things from 1-5 and also the the traits tested might not include other traits relevant for work--bitework in particular. Also, it seems that the study concluded that the older the pup, the more relevant the testing and that the breeder's assessment of the litter/pup was more valuable. Studies and experiments are very specific, yet often given broad application.

Looking forward to her response.

T


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## Tommy O'Hanlon (Feb 21, 2008)

I think it's easier to tell a bad pup rather than a good one


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## Ang Cangiano (Mar 2, 2007)

Peter, have you read this book?:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Knowledge...365001115&sr=8-1-spell&keywords=pfaffenburger

Ang


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Peter Cho said:


> First and most importantly, I would ask your training director, not a forum. He/she would be the best source of clear direction.
> 
> Second, as proven by studies, there is NO correlation between ability to pick a good pup vs a poor one at 8 weeks. You can only go by parents, grandparents and pedigree. That is a fact. I believe there is a doctorate thesis on this precise topic by Dr. Gabi Hoffmann.
> 
> ...


Makes sense Peter just wanted to see what some people on here look for. Im more looking for yearlings then pups (though I wont rule one out) which are harder to find and I do believe you can see more of the dog by then. I get that this is the net and I dont take whats on here as gospel, I take all opinions with a grain of salt. Checked out those breeders, seem quite interesting. Thanks for the info.


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## Ang Cangiano (Mar 2, 2007)

I would also suggest being extremely careful of trying some of these tests on dogs the age you're looking at. Go up to a 12mo that you've never met before and pinch it's toe? I'd only do that if I didn't mind spending the rest of the day in the hospital ER.

Ang


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Ang Cangiano said:


> I would also suggest being extremely careful of trying some of these tests on dogs the age you're looking at. Go up to a 12mo that you've never met before and pinch it's toe? I'd only do that if I didn't mind spending the rest of the day in the hospital ER.
> 
> Ang


Lol true plus the breeder probably wouldnt be too happy with me. I was just curious not planning on doing that to a random dog.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Haz Othman said:


> Lol true plus the breeder probably wouldnt be too happy with me. I was just curious not planning on doing that to a random dog.


Am curious, why a year old and not a pup? Not sure how things over there work but over here we are not great fans of buying a dog 1 year old unless proven quality...and dogs for sale in that age are mostly dogs with a history or problems or things you do not want to see in a dog. Buying someone elses problems as it were...


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Am curious, why a year old and not a pup? Not sure how things over there work but over here we are not great fans of buying a dog 1 year old unless proven quality...and dogs for sale in that age are mostly dogs with a history or problems or things you do not want to see in a dog. Buying someone elses problems as it were...


True hence why I said they are hard to find. There are however circumstances in which some dogs can become available. Older owner has health issues, dog returned by pet home because its too much to handle, breeder has too many dogs etc. Do you need to be very carful? Absolutely there are lots of half ass dogs being sold.
Why do I want an older dog? Because Im not big on puppies lol and if a decent prospect is available why not? A more mature dog should give you a better idea of what your getting imo.


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

Ask Igor for the dog that's wasting away in his kennel


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Marta Wajngarten said:


> Ask Igor for the dog that's wasting away in his kennel


Lol Kaiser? He's getting a bit old I think. If your talking about his pup, not happening. I inquired to Pando about his brother but he was having none of it..lol. I think the majority of that litter will do quite well. Too bad I wasnt in the market when they became available, nice dogs.


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

Haz Othman said:


> Lol Kaiser? He's getting a bit old I think. If your talking about his pup, not happening. I inquired to Pando about his brother but he was having none of it..lol. I think the majority of that litter will do quite well. Too bad I wasnt in the market when they became available, nice dogs.


lol he would never in a million years get rid of Kaiser, no I was talking about the pup.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Am curious, why a year old and not a pup? Not sure how things over there work but over here we are not great fans of buying a dog 1 year old unless proven quality...and dogs for sale in that age are mostly dogs with a history or problems or things you do not want to see in a dog. Buying someone elses problems as it were...


That's my usual take on it. Dealing with baggage that you have no idea how it got there and whether its genetics or bad training is a PITA. Also with a pup there are certain things I want to instill during the critical periods. At least if its there, I know how it got there. Take Pffafenberger's type testing and objectively apply it and it holds true--at least in my experience.

T


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Alice said;
"Test, although they might be usefull in some instances, can not perpare the pup for the owner or the life it will live."

Best answer so far.

If I'm testing a pup for myself I've had no problem seeing the same thing in the adult later on.
If I'm testing a pup for someone else I clarify it by stating it's only what "I" see at present because I have no control over the how and why the individual works with and develops it.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> That's my usual take on it. Dealing with baggage that you have no idea how it got there and whether its genetics or bad training is a PITA. Also with a pup there are certain things I want to instill during the critical periods. At least if its there, I know how it got there. Take Pffafenberger's type testing and objectively apply it and it holds true--at least in my experience.
> 
> T


Exactly! You can test and check and look and the dog might look fine at a first or second glance, but beyond that you have absolutely no idea what you are getting into and the real measure of the dog will come out in small portions, over time. And lets face it, the things we see then are things we don't like and will have to work hard on to fix.

I don't mind fixing my own ****ups, but to fix someone elses? No thanks!


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Alice Bezemer said:


> I must be a real simpleton when it comes to looking at pups....
> 
> 1-bloodline.
> 2-bellybutton may not be herniated.
> ...


+1 it happened to me (best pup thing)
I get alot of shit for this on forums but it's just the way I roll and up til recently worked for me ](*,)


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I think that philosophy assumes a depth of quality in the litter that I have yet to see there. Dick & Selena are the only breeders I've seen that say they have a 100% success rate. For what I want in a dog, I'm lucky if there is one or two in the litter that fit, so I rely on my testing. After that it is how you raise them that can make or break any dog.

T


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I think that philosophy assumes a depth of quality in the litter that I have yet to see there. Dick & Selena are the only breeders I've seen that say they have a 100% success rate. For what I want in a dog, I'm lucky if there is one or two in the litter that fit, so I rely on my testing. After that it is how you raise them that can make or break any dog.
> 
> T


yeah, we all want the superstar pup, but it is what you do with them that makes the superstar out of them.

I think most well bred working function/ focused litters will produce more than a couple pups that will be suitable for the work intended, otherwise that is a big failure, but I get what you are saying... 

The preferrence is with the handlers, the dogs should be able to still be trained to perform. People are all different, in wants, needs, styles, etc..the best couple pups for me or anyone else, might be the worst pups for someone else. All that really matters is that put in capable hands, the goals can be achieved along with have whatever more pronounced traits that the particular owner prefers.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Money can buy the Ferrari, but that does not automaticly means the buyer can drive one..... Does that make the Ferrari a bad car than???

Dick


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Assuming its a Ferrari, no. I think the breeder and the genetics can only do so much. Then as you say, the handler is in the driver's seat. But just because its working bred does not mean that every pup in the litter is of equal quality and the only way to know that is to evaluate it for your purposes. I wouldn't pick X puppy just because it followed me around and then dial-a-hope on environmental nerves, etc which panders to the puppies are a crap shoot theory.


T


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I think that philosophy assumes a depth of quality in the litter that I have yet to see there. Dick & Selena are the only breeders I've seen that say they have a 100% success rate. For what I want in a dog, I'm lucky if there is one or two in the litter that fit, so I rely on my testing. After that it is how you raise them that can make or break any dog.
> 
> T


Fits you is different than a 100% rate. And I said 100% of the puppies of the puppies who leave here are in our opinion suitabbale for sports. Not all are natural psd's and i never said all 100% will make it. From a litter aprox 75% will make it. Some are ruined as pup, some outgrown the handler. Some just dont go go trial cause they cant finish training reliable enough.

Selena


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

If people get a dog from a breeder with a certain type of dog with certain traits and it does not fit, they should have done their homework. Every one thinks of hisself he/she is 100% capable of beeing a "good" handler. 
Thats the same with the Ferrari. Everyone thinks he/she is a good enough driver and can drive one. But if you buy one and can't drive it like a limosine, is it because the Ferrari was build wrong, or should one be more aware of wahat you're buying??
Both are cars......

One should look real honest at their own skills, look in the mirror and ask theirselfs "what do i want, is it possible whithin my skills and where can i get/buy what i want.".

Dick


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> If people get a dog from a breeder with a certain type of dog with certain traits and it does not fit, they should have done their homework. Every one thinks of hisself he/she is 100% capable of beeing a "good" handler.
> Thats the same with the Ferrari. Everyone thinks he/she is a good enough driver and can drive one. But if you buy one and can't drive it like a limosine, is it because the Ferrari was build wrong, or should one be more aware of wahat you're buying??
> Both are cars......
> 
> ...


Absolutely!!! Part of the issue is self awareness and honesty. The other part from the breeder perspective, is it can be difficult to filter through the BS and make sure that the person is capable of handling the dog. However, to protect the dog and the breeder, I feel breeders keep striving to make the effort. I'm speaking from personal experience here. Wrong handler, even worse trainers and genetics and breeder get blamed for the results. Handler would rather lister to the know knowing title grubber instead of the person that brought the dog here. Been there, done that. 

T


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

I talked to my TD yesterday. He did some pup selection for some club members in a local litter that has been doing very well here. He told me that he doesnt pick the pup that goes to the fence first. He likes to pick the one that stays in the middle or hangs back. I guess everyone has their own theory..on what makes a good pup, he admits its still a crapshoot. I was talking to him about yearlings as well and was told that yes some are trying to offload junk but there are also some diamonds in the rough. Locally most WL breeders sell a lot of pups to pet homes just not enough working homes for them all. Sometimes the pet homes just cant handle the pups and they get returned. Not saying thats were they all come from just saying its a source.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Haz Othman said:


> I talked to my TD yesterday. He did some pup selection for some club members in a local litter that has been doing very well here. He told me that he doesnt pick the pup that goes to the fence first. He likes to pick the one that stays in the middle or hangs back. I guess everyone has their own theory..on what makes a good pup, he admits its still a crapshoot. I was talking to him about yearlings as well and was told that yes some are trying to offload junk but there are also some diamonds in the rough. Locally most WL breeders sell a lot of pups to pet homes just not enough working homes for them all. Sometimes the pet homes just cant handle the pups and they get returned. Not saying thats were they all come from just saying its a source.


I'm assuming that "going to the fence first" means the first to greet the stranger? Did he tell you why he likes the ones that hang in the middle or to the back?


T


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I'm assuming that "going to the fence first" means the first to greet the stranger? Did he tell you why he likes the ones that hang in the middle or to the back?
> 
> 
> T


Yes he said he doesnt like a dog to be super independent or hard headed if I recall correctly. I do know the dog he picked is doing quite well. It was one of the pups that hung back. The whole litter seems fairly consistent so far so who can say.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

greetings to a potentially HOSTILE stranger..WTF does that have to do with anything..I want PACK. FAMILY, TERRITORY, strangers can fukk off..

that IS if we let the dog decide, outside of training,, when confined on property that the young dog/adult considers Thier property and FAMILY

TAKING out AND handing the leash is different..
..


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> greetings to a potentially HOSTILE stranger..WTF does that have to do with anything..I want PACK. FAMILY, TERRITORY, strangers can fukk off..
> 
> that IS if we let the dog decide, outside of training,, when confined on property that the young dog/adult considers Thier property and FAMILY
> ..


In a 7-8 week old puppy, I want CONFIDENCE and I'm a tad suspect if they have defense/territoriality at that age. The middle and back of the pack can stay there. I guess this is sport dog selection. Khira and her brother had passed all my little tests and I'd spent 6 hours or so with the litter. The owners owned a boarding kennel and at the end of the day it was time for people to pick up their dogs. The litter saw two people a couple of hundred feet away and they all took off. One by one, they reached a certain point and turned back--except Khira and Izzy. They went right out and stood their ground to meet/greet them. That sealed it for me. But different strokes for different folks.


T


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> In a 7-8 week old puppy, I want CONFIDENCE and I'm a tad suspect if they have defense/territoriality at that age. The middle and back of the pack can stay there. I guess this is sport dog selection. Khira and her brother had passed all my little tests and I'd spent 6 hours or so with the litter. The owners owned a boarding kennel and at the end of the day
> it was time for people to pick up their dogs. The litter saw two people a couple of hundred feet away and they all took off. One by one, they reached a certain point and turned back--except Khira and Izzy. They went right out and stood their ground to meet/greet them. That sealed it for me. But different strokes for different folks.
> 
> T



7-8 week old pup, I want NO reaction to strangers..I want confidence and nerves ...or same azzhole response to everyone that the pup gives me


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> 7-8 week old pup, I want NO reaction to strangers..I want confidence and nerves ...or same azzhole response to everyone that the pup gives me


Well, with my breeds, I want them to approach anything and everything as if they own the world. Usually, true confident aloofness sets in about 6-9 months. That's when they start to ignore strangers or become indifferent. But we've had that thread.

T


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Well, with my breeds, I want them to approach anything and everything as if they own the world. Usually, true confident aloofness sets in about 6-9 months. That's when they start to ignore strangers or become indifferent. But we've had that thread.
> 
> T


that is what I meant.. did not word it very well


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Well, with my breeds, I want them to approach anything and everything as if they own the world. Usually, true confident aloofness sets in about 6-9 months. That's when they start to ignore strangers or become indifferent. But we've had that thread.
> 
> T




Ditto! 
The pup I want is the one that "comes to the fence" out of confidence and curiosity. It doesn't have to mean the pup wants to be a playmate. 
I also want a pup with as much of a natural retrieve as I can get.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

People judge pups on what they need for their particular area of sports. I really am a ditz in picking pups 

Last 4 dogs I picked on a whim mostly, Kars Xdutchie, looked in the litter and low and behold 4 white toes, 1 per paw. Casper Xmali, looked in litter, only lightcolored pup in the bunch. Robbie Xmali, looked in litter only 2 males, other one had a herniated bellybutton. Caylinn, looked in litter, saw the white patch on her chin and on return visit asked Dick to be sure which one he thought would suit me best but my head was set on the white patch pup and thats the one he handed to me. 

What's the one thing that stands out in all this simplistic picking of a pup? I checked out the breeders and knew what I was getting! 

Looking into a litter will mean nothing if you do not do the work and do not check out the bloodline that goes with that litter. If you buy a car you check for what you need, same goes with a pup. Bloodline tells you all you need to know and what to expect... The rest is up to you, you either make it or break it. I don't feel the need to test or check pups...I read up and do my homework before even considering a pup. The biggest problem with what people call washouts is that good pups get into the wrong hands for the wrong reasons, giving the breeder a bad name. It is not the pups mistake but the handler for picking something that didn't suit at all, or for not taking the time to look into the background of a bloodline to see what's there. 

Can't stand it when people walk around whining about how their pup is no good and then the breeder gets blamed in the process when in fact they were the ****wits for picking that particular bloodline to begin with for all the wrong reasons! 

JMO


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

"People judge pups on what they need for their particular area of sports".

Absolutely! Any pup in a litter can be the pick pup based on that statement! :wink:


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Completely mis-states what has been SAID about Gabi Hoffman's study. I have yet to be able to find a copy of it in terms of what was tested but I think it had me to do with the Volhard way of testing and ranking certain traits. Puts a lot of faith in working line pedigrees as dominant for producing what the parents and grandparent's are.
> 
> T


 http://espace.library.uq.edu.au/view/UQ:106125 It looks like you have to be a student or faculty to get direct access to the study after checking for all of 5 minutes. Maybe there are some other ways in. I asked Gabi and she said it should be available through the site. She said before she would publicly post it she would want to edit it to make it reader friendly but has no interest in doing so at this time. She did also say that to get ANY kind of predictability she had to measure the extreme dogs. She did say if you are testing it would be best to avoid pups with obvious extreme problems or reactions you do not desire. Other than that a complete crap shoot. My personal observations when it comes to GSD's it seems like still waters run deep.


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

A couple days back I went to a breeders place. Had a male Kraftwerk dog, Thor vom Kraftwerk. About 110 lbs excellent conformation despite being oversized, moved well, full of confidence. The stud was 2 years old and had no Schutzhund training just some AKC obediance. I challenged him with the two foot tug, he grabbed it, fought me for it (nearly ripped my arm out of its socket) took the tug, then brought it back for more. His ball drive was through the roof and his OB was decent. He was a beast, if he had been for sale I would have bought him. They had bred him to the daughter of a second Kraftwerk stud they had on site. The second stud seemed to to run in the same mold as the younger one.

Anyways they had an 8 month old male for sale from the breeding of Thor to a daughter of the older stud. He had next to no ball drive, would barely mouth the tug and became slightly shy/insecure about loud noises.. He would make a good pet but yea he was nothing compared to his sire and grand sire on his mothers side, I didnt have time to see the dam but I was told she had good drive and confidence. 
So yea I guess its a real crapshoot. Granted they dont exactly breed for sport so maybe the issue was with the motherline..


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

You might be looking at the wrong kind of breeder if you can "challenge" their "stud" dog and he wants to play tug with you. Then again maybe my internet translation is way off in what you are saying.



Haz Othman said:


> A couple days back I went to a breeders place. Had a male Kraftwerk dog, Thor vom Kraftwerk. About 110 lbs excellent conformation despite being oversized, moved well, full of confidence. The stud was 2 years old and had no Schutzhund training just some AKC obediance. I challenged him with the two foot tug, he grabbed it, fought me for it (nearly ripped my arm out of its socket) took the tug, then brought it back for more. His ball drive was through the roof and his OB was decent. He was a beast, if he had been for sale I would have bought him. They had bred him to the daughter of a second Kraftwerk stud they had on site. The second stud seemed to to run in the same mold as the younger one.
> 
> Anyways they had an 8 month old male for sale from the breeding of Thor to a daughter of the older stud. He had next to no ball drive, would barely mouth the tug and became slightly shy/insecure about loud noises.. He would make a good pet but yea he was nothing compared to his sire and grand sire on his mothers side, I didnt have time to see the dam but I was told she had good drive and confidence.
> So yea I guess its a real crapshoot. Granted they dont exactly breed for sport so maybe the issue was with the motherline..


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

They are close to were i live, and i was intrigued by there kraftwerk studs. Yes i did not say it properly, i presented the tug and he went for it. Bit hard deep no hesitation very intense. I wasnt planning on actually rileing him up something gave me the impression that wouldn't be smart. after meeting him i think i have a better grasp of what people mean when they talk about presence. It want just his size it was just..him. They bred him to a grim daughter and i believe she is due in a couple weeks may be an interesting litter.


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## kristin tresidder (Oct 23, 2008)

Haz Othman said:


> -Looking for a stable confident dog. Doesnt startle at sudden noise movement, no shying, reactivity, can handle being touched without stress etc.
> -Has play drive was using a tug and ball on string, does the dog want the ball? If he is tugging is he phased by me touching his head, back etc. If I get the toy/tug away from him does he keep trying to get it back


if those are the things you want, then those are the things i would evaluate a pup or young dog for. *sometimes* pups will suprise you and display different inherent drives & character as adults than they do as pups, but IME, it averages out enough to give you a pretty representative picture of the pup's mental make up when you look at them as a young dog/pup. a stable pup is probably going to be a stable adult, and a schitzy pup is probably going to be schitzy as an adult. 
i also think it's really important to see/know both parents, to better stack the deck in your favor. 
at the end of a day, when you buy a pup, all you're buying is potential, so make the most educated decision you can - and wait for a breeding where both parents reliably demonstrate - and even better produce - the traits you're looking for. 
what everyone here does is going to vary from person to person - the old adage about "the only thing two trainers can agree on...." and all that.


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## Ellen Piepers (Nov 6, 2008)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> One should look real honest at their own skills, look in the mirror and ask theirselfs "what do i want, is it possible whithin my skills and where can i get/buy what i want.".


:grin: I underestimated the pup that both me and my husband selected from the litter (independently of each other). And although I really don't get hurt in discovering she's a level further up than I am, I'm honest enough to have my husband train her now. We'll see if that is only temporary and I can take her back after a very firm foundation, or if he's going to bring her to trial eventually, but at least I'm learning a lot in the process. And I'm lucky to have a partner who can help in this way.


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## catherine hardigan (Oct 12, 2009)

Alice Bezemer said:


> I really am a ditz in picking pups


Me too. That's why I get adults... I can see what the dog is. 

But I've had good luck with other people's washouts (good dogs not well matched to their owners) and barren breeding stock. They've all been free, too. Previous training hasn't been an insurmountable issue either... bad training can almost always be undone with good training, and good dogs seem to take to good training like a fish to water.

And you're right... often the dog or the breeder get the blame when a dog isn't working out.


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## patricia powers (Nov 14, 2010)

I have not read every comment in this thread & probably should have before posting, so I apologize if I am repeating someone else.
honesty! that is where one must begin. first of all be honest with yourself about what your goals truly are. then be honest about your own ability as a trainer and what potential you may have. be honest about the probability of getting hooked up with people who can actually help you achieve your goals. then be honest with the breeder about what your level of experience is, what you are hoping to achieve & what sort of dog you are looking for. because the breeder knows his dogs and his lines better than I do, I almost always trust them to choose for me---hence the necessity for absolute honesty.
I am not one striving for titles, points or fame. I am not fond of high prey drive since I live in direct contact with my dogs 365 days a yr. I am more interested in real working ability than I am in high competitions. I know what I can and cannot live with. I have been known to tell breeders that I am not looking for the pup with the most potential for titles, but the one with the most solid nerves and problem solving ability. on the other hand, if I were a competitive person, I would be looking for higher prey drive because it is useful in training a dog for points. I would not be looking for a dog with problem solving ability since I would not want the dog thinking for himself, but focusing on me and looking to me for direction.
I have not been on this forum for very long, but I am an old-timer nonetheless & have seen time & time again where a beginner with high aspirations gets in over his head especially with prey drive & aggression. this is why I say honesty is absolutely essential not only with one's self, but also with the breeder. let them help you choose a dog that matches your ability and aspirations.


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Haz Othman said:


> Lol faisal you put your finger on it, Im almost gun shy this time around. This is why if possible I want something around a year old so I can have a better idea how its going to turn out.
> Do you pinch between the toes or the toe itself?
> Also, what do you consider high ball / prey drive? How do you measure it?
> 
> ...


If it were me I'd go for a 7-8 week old pup or a 2 yr old green dog (not a 12-14 month old). If a litter is evaluated correctly you know exactly how the pup will be when he grows up except any health/allergy related issues (dogs don't change, people just miss signs). 

The toe pinch tells you what the pup will do when made physically uncomfortable, if he totally ignores pain then you will have your hands full when he grows up (will require higher than normal corrections due to high pain threshold). If he bites your hand when you pinch toe then you also need to learn that same dog when grown up potentially will hurt you during training. If he shows a lil reaction then resumes normal interaction (at the toe pinch), this is what you want (shows enough reaction that a mild correction will mean something to him, recovers quickly so will mind the correction and move on, not dwell on it/shut down).

Prey drive testing is also subjective like anything else, what you may call high drive may considered crap by someone else. Check grip, nice full hard, lift pup up off front feet by the rag and hold for 3-5 seconds, grip should not move. Fire a starter pistol, if any pup responds negatively, walk away from litter. Check food drive, you want high food drive. What else, put whole litter in a kennel then open the door of the kennel, if whole litter comes bounding out, you are good. If some come out, some stay in kennel, walk away from litter. Just some things I used to select my pup. 

Do not believe people who tell you pup selection is a crap shoot, it is only a crap shoot if the person does not know what they are doing.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Faisal Khan said:


> If it were me I'd go for a 7-8 week old pup or a 2 yr old green dog (not a 12-14 month old). If a litter is evaluated correctly you know exactly how the pup will be when he grows up except any health/allergy related issues (dogs don't change, people just miss signs).
> 
> The toe pinch tells you what the pup will do when made physically uncomfortable, if he totally ignores pain then you will have your hands full when he grows up (will require higher than normal corrections due to high pain threshold). If he bites your hand when you pinch toe then you also need to learn that same dog when grown up potentially will hurt you during training. If he shows a lil reaction then resumes normal interaction (at the toe pinch), this is what you want (shows enough reaction that a mild correction will mean something to him, recovers quickly so will mind the correction and move on, not dwell on it/shut down).
> 
> ...



good stuff, although I would not presume to tell someone what "they want" in regards to the toe-pinch..


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> good stuff, although I would not presume to tell someone what "they want" in regards to the toe-pinch..


Off course, the only important thing is to identify the response then see if that is what "you" want. Good catch!


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Another response on the toe pinch that I did not mention is that the pup goes haywire yelping/jumping and running around like a chicken with it's head cut off. Look out for this response also, when the pup grows up it will offer same response during training corrections. Key is to check the response and then see if that is something you want in your dog. The pinch is between toes, it is a light pinch just to see the reaction.


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Thanks for the in depth info Faisal, so even if some of the pups respond well walk away if others in the litter do not? Any reason why you would stay away from a 12-14 month old?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Haz Othman said:


> Thanks for the in depth info Faisal, so even if some of the pups respond well walk away if others in the litter do not? Any reason why you would stay away from a 12-14 month old?


I cant speak for Faisal but I agree with him on that point, the point about the noise sensitivity (the .22 blank), although I think you could also use metal food bowls, or slap a couple pieces of 2X4 together if you dont have a .22 blank gun. If I saw negative reactions to that, I would leave almost immediately, so I did not end up liking any of the pups, even if those pups were fine. we might not agree with what is negative, I am ok with a minor reaction with quick recovery, and investigatory response if slamming stuff to the ground, some people want no reaction at all to the noise.

another thing would be if a few of the pups looked skittish, or not confident in thier interactions, even if most of them looked good I would still walk...

those things are mor related to the nerveset aspects of the dogs..and best just to leave if you notice issues right up front, even if it is not with the pup that you like. of course just my opinion..


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Yep nerve issues are genetic, even if 1 pup shows signs it typically means the weakness exists in the genes and the others may exhibit it at a later time. Dog ownership is a 8-14 year commitment, best to choose very wisely. Any negative thing you notice with a pup does not magically dissapear when it grows up, it remains for life (as do the positive things).


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Agree with Joby and Faisal--especially on the noise and nerve. I too use metal for the sound test. I don't want the puppy that startles when I toss my keys out or drop the metal pan. I really like the ones that run up and grab the keys and take off or walk right up to the metal object. But its okay if they don't notice. Also agree with Faisal on the crap shoot argument. My puppy testing has always held true into adulthood--negative and positive.


T


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Good to know also why avoid a yearling, is that a bad time to make an assessment?


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Haz Othman said:


> Good to know also why avoid a yearling, is that a bad time to make an assessment?


My experience is that dogs are their flakiest between 1-2 and sometimes 1-near 3--especially males. I'm also big on imprinting what I want and not having to deal with baggage that is unknown to me. This can double your training time. If I were buying an older dog it would be on a 60 day trial only. That way I can expose him to everything and test him. Also, anything over 6 months, I want preliminary x-rays otherwise, I wouldn't touch it. As someone else said, I'm about to have it for 10-14 years. 

T


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

More prone to being high strung jumpy at that age? Lower attention span? 
Im seeing this in a friends dog that came from good working lines. Dog isnt nervy per say just seems super high strung..always panting heavy over not to much stimulation. Sometimes seems a bit jumpy about new things. 
For example he was being walked by parked cars as in between the handler and the cars like 1 inch or so to spare between him and the car. One of the vehicles was on, he got weirded out and tried to push into the handler to getaway from the cars. The handler then turned around and walked him real close to a bunch of parked cars for about 10 minutes and he seemd fine. Apparently he also was weirded out by their basement stairs for a short time didnt want to come near them, they took him up and down a couple times now he does it on his own. Super temperment with people and not DA at all. Has good drive just seems a bit high strung and flaky as T put it. They seem to think its just growng pains also the dog had no experience in cities until they picked him up.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Haz Othman said:


> More prone to being high strung jumpy at that age? Lower attention span?
> Im seeing this in a friends dog that came from good working lines. Dog isnt nervy per say just seems super high strung..always panting heavy over not to much stimulation. Sometimes seems a bit jumpy about new things.
> For example he was being walked by parked cars as in between the handler and the cars like 1 inch or so to spare between him and the car. One of the vehicles was on, he got weirded out and tried to push into the handler to getaway from the cars. The handler then turned around and walked him real close to a bunch of parked cars for about 10 minutes and he seemd fine. Apparently he also was weirded out by their basement stairs for a short time didnt want to come near them, they took him up and down a couple times now he does it on his own. Super temperment with people and not DA at all. Has good drive just seems a bit high strung and flaky as T put it. They seem to think its just growng pains also the dog had no experience in cities until they picked him up.


 
If I had tested him environmentally [strange environments of various types] as a puppy, I wouldn't be too concerned about him. If this were a dog that was a prospect, I wouldn't buy him. This is nerves--not high strung jumpy with various new/different environmental stimuli. They do go in and out of stages and fear periods but unless you had the information before the fear stages began, you don't know.

T


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