# "You always ruin your first (working) dog"



## Jonathan Katz (Jan 11, 2010)

I know I ruined my first working dog.

Snoopy was a pit bull puppy I found at the CACC in Harlem. It was love at first sight. I took him home and found out he had parvovirus. Thank GOD he was a fighter and he live though it. I was in my first stages of learning how to train dogs and tried to do my best with his behavior modification (typical dominant pit puppy stuff) and obedience training with him. I did what I knew.

Wile attending my first course I realized snoopy had drive. After about 6 weeks of a 12 week course we started protection training. The instructors had us put our dogs name on one of two lists; dogs being brought out through pray and dogs being brought out through defense.

With me standing out in the open with my dog, the instructor popped out from a bush and cracked a whip. Snoopy came out to the end of the leash and started to bark with confidence. I was very happy!

The instructors were teaching us how to work our dogs in drive and I was watching them swing their shepherds in the air and I got a little to enthusiastic. I rewarded snoopy with a tug and was swinging him around, until I swung him to hard. He popped off the tug, yelped and would never play tug with me the same again. He will play tug with anyone BUT me. I hurt him and lost his trust. I spend over 100 hours (not all at the same time LOL) trying to get him to play tug with me again, but nothing worked.

He excelled in bite work, so I was still able to learn a lot from him about handling and training. His obedience was good but he never looked happy doing it. Again my $&@? Ups.

I was never able to title him, due to thing out of his and my hands. He still taught me so much and I am so happy I have him. He is now retired and is enjoying his old age!

I learned more from my mistakes than my successes with him.

Here are the only two videos I have of him working. Not much OB, mostly bite work. Thank you to my friend Melanie for letting me look back on the past. It makes me smile every time I watch it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gztMjhMppiI&feature=youtube_gdata_player

And another short clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykvfKLX72T4&feature=youtube_gdata_player

I only share my story so other people never make the same mistakes I did.

What are people opinions on this statement? "You alway ruin your first dog."


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I'm just commenting here, but doesn't look so RUINED...

I think people make more mistakes, and limit their dogs abilities mostly.
But I do think that is pretty different than actually ruining a dog. I could dig up plenty of ruined pitbull vids, and other breeds as well.

You made some mistakes, learned from them..but the dog doesn;t appear to be what I would call ruined....if the decoy did something that made the dog not want to do bitework anymore, I would call that ruined...

I am sure your OB was not a happy and flashy as you would have liked..and you probably did things differently than you might now, but ruined??? To me ruined is a strong word....


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## Jonathan Katz (Jan 11, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> I'm just commenting here, but doesn't look so RUINED...
> 
> I think people make more mistakes, and limit their dogs abilities mostly.
> But I do think that is pretty different than actually ruining a dog. I could dig up plenty of ruined pitbull vids, and other breeds as well.
> ...


You are right. "Ruined" is a strong word. "You always screw up your first dog." I have been told this statement by many trainers. 

PS: Jerry Bradshaw gave him the slowest down in PSA history! LOL


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Jonathan Katz said:


> You are right. "Ruined" is a strong word. "You always screw up your first dog." I have been told this statement by many trainers.
> 
> PS: Jerry Bradshaw gave him the slowest down in PSA history! LOL


depends on how much help you seek out and if you get good help..that is the important part...

but yeah you are right for the most part..

the first dog is sometimes not the "right" dog either...


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

We all screw up our dogs in some way. The trick is to screw up each dog a little less than his predecessors.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> We all screw up our dogs in some way. The trick is to screw up each dog a little less than his predecessors.


great post..


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Well I am not sure if this counts but in a roundabout way I did and I didnt i suppose...

My first Mali X is what got me into KNPV...I ****ed him up royally before I ever trained in any kind of sports....getting into KNPV is what got me un****up the dog


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## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> We all screw up our dogs in some way. The trick is to screw up each dog a little less than his predecessors.


hahaha right!
I am now on to screwing up my second dog...LOL


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## Jonathan Katz (Jan 11, 2010)

Mike Lauer said:


> hahaha right!
> I am now on to screwing up my second dog...LOL


LOL! I'm laughing with you not at you!


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Mike Lauer said:


> hahaha right!
> I am now on to screwing up my second dog...LOL


That's OK Mike I'm about 20 dogs ahead of you and still screwing them up! After a while you have to resign yourself that they are all screwed up in one way or another. And those that claim otherwise are liars, crazy or ignorant.


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## sam wilks (May 3, 2009)

I dont think he looks bad at all especially not for a pitbull. I wish my first dog would have turned out that nice.


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

I think that most of the post are right . the first dog just never reaches its full potential.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

It's all part of the learning curve. I don't think I've ruined my first dog, though I do think he would have gone further and faster with a really good handler, so he has not had a chance to live up to his full potential. On the other hand, he was last pick of the litter, so a top trainer wouldn't have bothered with him. I figure it's worked out well for both of us. 

I think too, that finding the right people to train with is really important, but, until you have enough experience to recognize good training from bad, you get what you get. Sometimes you get lucky and find the right people, sometimes you have to search before finding the right fit for you. 

Then you get a second dog, and she's completely different from the first dog... and you're back to messing up another one.


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## Jenna Lea (Jul 25, 2010)

Leslie, I think you bring up a good point, even as we progress as better handlers on the whole every new dog can bring some new idosyncracy that takes us back to a "first time moment".


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

For me, my first Mal is just about perfect for what I needed and wanted, and the rest can't quite compare  No regrets  But maybe I will make fewer mistakes and get it right by the time I raise a 10th dog or so? The screw ups#-o are all mine!

:lol:


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## Margaret Wheeler (May 29, 2010)

Anna Kasho said:


> For me, my first Mal is just about perfect for what I needed and wanted, and the rest can't quite compare  No regrets  But maybe I will make fewer mistakes and get it right by the time I raise a 10th dog or so? The screw ups#-o are all mine!
> 
> :lol:


Ha! ha!

Well, I got my first dog screwed up enough that I had to get a second dog that I am just starting to screw up now. I will say that it's more fun and you learn more screwing up a trained dog than you do screwing up a puppy.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I had pretty good luck with just the basic training for my very first dog.
My first competition dog, AKC OB, also did a really nice job. 
My brother's first AKC OB dog was HIT his first competition ever. He came out of the ring and asked me if that was good! ](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Bob this is my thoughts on this, Why must anyone screw up their first working dog? Are you doing all your traing yourself and if so then I can agree with this. If you are with a good trainer then your dog is a reflection of his training. his training the dog and training the handler. This dog should be as good as any of his. There is no need to screw up your first dog. I'm not talking about an older dog with already bad habits that you are trying to make a first dog out of. Your second dog will most likely be better than this dog. But this dog will be as good as you could ever expect with the help of a good trainer.


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## Margaret Wheeler (May 29, 2010)

Jerry Lyda said:


> Bob this is my thoughts on this, Why must anyone screw up their first working dog? Are you doing all your traing yourself and if so then I can agree with this. If you are with a good trainer then your dog is a reflection of his training. his training the dog and training the handler. This dog should be as good as any of his. There is no need to screw up your first dog. I'm not talking about an older dog with already bad habits that you are trying to make a first dog out of. Your second dog will most likely be better than this dog. But this dog will be as good as you could ever expect with the help of a good trainer.


 
Why so serious Jerry?!

My own facetiousness aside, you are right for the most part. I think that with a talented dog and a great trainer, it's pretty tough to seriously screw up, even if ithe dog is your first.

otoh I think that lack of experience in a particular breed or a particlar kind of work can cause you to make mistakes that you regret. I have a lot of general experience with working jack russells and border collies but I know jack about GSD's and Mals and nothing about play training which is really key to the success of a laid back guy like my shepherd. He is very nicely bred from two awesome working parents, but by raising him as a pet and without an understanding of how to build drive in a puppy, I raised a lovely family companion who did a great job of protecting the house but who isn't in any particular hurry to participate in protection sports.

I'm not beating myself up over it, I think I did a darn good job considering but I hold only myself respoinsible for him not being particlarly gung ho as a working dog.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Jerry Lyda said:


> Bob this is my thoughts on this, Why must anyone screw up their first working dog? Are you doing all your traing yourself and if so then I can agree with this. *If you are with a good trainer then your dog is a reflection of his training. his training the dog and training the handler.* This dog should be as good as any of his. There is no need to screw up your first dog. I'm not talking about an older dog with already bad habits that you are trying to make a first dog out of. Your second dog will most likely be better than this dog. But this dog will be as good as you could ever expect with the help of a good trainer.


That's the big 'if'. People like me get a dog and think the dog can do something and then start looking for training. If we get lucky, we connect with the right trainer. If we're not so lucky, there are a lot of bad trainers with a good line of talk willing to take our money. And then there's all the work we already did with our dog... a lot of the training that makes a good pet dog, is counter to what makes a good sport or working dog. So the foundation needs to be reworked. 

By the second dog, you have a better idea of what you want and how to get there. Hopefully, anyway.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

That's right, if there is no if you are at the mercy of your own intelligence. Your second dog should be better. If not rethink what you're doing or go see a good trainer. I don't mean you as you but you as anyone trying to do this.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jerry Lyda said:


> Bob this is my thoughts on this, Why must anyone screw up their first working dog? Are you doing all your traing yourself and if so then I can agree with this. If you are with a good trainer then your dog is a reflection of his training. his training the dog and training the handler. This dog should be as good as any of his. There is no need to screw up your first dog. I'm not talking about an older dog with already bad habits that you are trying to make a first dog out of. Your second dog will most likely be better than this dog. But this dog will be as good as you could ever expect with the help of a good trainer.


Exactly!
My first dog was trained with a book I got for my 12th birthday and a bit of guidance from the old man across the street from me that had a spectacular English Pointer. I still have the book.....and every training book I've bought since.
The old man and the dog were both retired so I spent a lot of time just sitting and listening to him talk dogs. 
I must have read dozens of training books before I ever found a competition trainer but what that old man talked about was gold.


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Jerry Lyda said:


> Bob this is my thoughts on this, Why must anyone screw up their first working dog? Are you doing all your traing yourself and if so then I can agree with this. If you are with a good trainer then your dog is a reflection of his training. his training the dog and training the handler. This dog should be as good as any of his. There is no need to screw up your first dog. I'm not talking about an older dog with already bad habits that you are trying to make a first dog out of. Your second dog will most likely be better than this dog. But this dog will be as good as you could ever expect with the help of a good trainer.


Bingo! good trainer and club support is priceless.


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