# Mal for hunting/tracking?



## David Petruescu (Aug 19, 2011)

I've been wondering about this for a long time:

Given Mals flexibility of being used in so many different venues and sports, I have never heard of anybody using them in hunting. Is there a reason for it?

What I mean by hunting is not your grab and hold type used in wild board, there are better breeds for that, but scent tracking and maybe even baying. One use that I'd be curious about would be wounded animal tracking. 

I do understand that maybe it would not be as good at it as some hunting breeds, but by looking at the Mal flexibility and willingness to do just about anything, why not hunting?

Regards,
David


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

My guess would be if they had the desire to take, say a **** scent, and follow it for a mile without ever seeing the ****, they would be used for that. Dogs are bred for specific purposes. Take a hound that has never smelled a squirrel. The scent triggers something in his brain to the extent that his nose rules everything. That same scent probably wouldn't even make a mal slow down past a cursory sniff. All dogs can smell the scent, but, it is how different scents trigger the brain.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Feist du Loups du Soleil and his mother Notoire des Ombres Valeureux.


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## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

My guess it's a combination of two reasons-

Tradition- I hunt with a close family friend in South-East VA. He's in his 70's and has hunted with dogs his whole life. He has never even heard of a Malinois. Hounds are the way he's hunted and the way he'll hunt until the day he dies.

Ease= Mals come with a lot of baggage that hounds don't. Sensitivity, aggression, dominance, intense prey drive, high energy etc. Why deal with all of these traits if you have a hound dog that does the job just as good as a Mal would?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Maren, let's see you dig up 20 more pictures of mals with game in ther mouth. The question really is, was it shot for them, was it a sight chase, or, as the poster queried, dig the dog in the pickuer have the desire to track the animal for a mile or so, sight unseen?


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Feist is one of the highest titled Malinois ever in North America. Ask Michael Ellis or Lisa Maze how they trained him.

http://loupsdusoleil.com/our-dogs/feist/

My two Malinois killed a skunk. Does that count? :razz: I might start up bow hunting next fall. We cannot use blood tracking dogs in the state of Missouri (on deer at least, they don't care about hogs), otherwise I would definitely try to use my dog.


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## Charles Guyer (Nov 6, 2009)

My old mal Lacy had squirrels and woodcock shot over her, dug racoons out of brush piles (not recommended), sat steady in the duck blind, and would retrieve any small game to hand. She wasn't a cur, springer, or lab, but we had a lot of fun hunting and usually brought something home.


She was trained on pen raised quail and squirrels trapped in a hav-a-hart. Just google good training sites (spaniel/cur-fiest/blood tracking/retriever), expose your pup to game and turn off your ears when people tell you it can't be done.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

You got Jolene out ready for hunting season? :-D


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## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Maren, let's see you dig up 20 more pictures of mals with game in ther mouth. The question really is, was it shot for them, was it a sight chase, or, as the poster queried, dig the dog in the pickuer have the desire to track the animal for a mile or so, sight unseen?


Why is this a contest? The op asked if people use Mals for hinting and Maren proved that at least one person does. No one thinks they'll be out hunting you 'dale any time soon.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

David Petruescu said:


> I've been wondering about this for a long time:
> 
> Given Mals flexibility of being used in so many different venues and sports, I have never heard of anybody using them in hunting. Is there a reason for it?
> 
> ...


Read the op's question Ben..."*Is there a reason for it?* I just explained the reason. Many dogs CA be trained to do many things, but, the training effort would be comprable to training an airedale for sport work. The results don't warrant the effort. Just as a side bar. Retrieving is not hunting. Nor is a dog hunting if he only chases game he can see.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

> but, the training effort would be comprable to training an airedale for sport work


I think some other breeders of airedales would take exception to that comment


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## Charles Guyer (Nov 6, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> You got Jolene out ready for hunting season? :-D


Nah, but I've tossed out some broke wing quail for her. We've got some noise desensitizing to do. If I shot a gun over her right now, I'd lose a body part for sure. 

P.S. Hounds (even one's that look like airedales) aren't the only dogs that use their nose to hunt.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

will fernandez said:


> I think some other breeders of airedales would take exception to that comment


Sure they would Will. But it is reality. It isn't that some can't do it, but, there is a reason for using certain breeds of dogs. There is always a reason, but, that doesn't mean anyone has to stay locked into popular opinion just because it is there. There is probably more satisfaction in taking an off breed and being successful with them.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

will fernandez said:


> I think some other breeders of airedales would take exception to that comment


Sorry Will, I missed my que. "Oh my god! I didn't mean to say something that anyone would take exception to!!!"

I feel better now.


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## David Petruescu (Aug 19, 2011)

This begs the question: how sensitive are Mal's feet/paws?

Most hunting/scent dogs are very tough, can go all day through brush and canyons without skipping a beat. I know a few people have ranches and go on horseback while their dogs follow, how are Mals feet/paws after a hard day of riding? If anything I think this may be a limitation as well (I think somebody mentioned something along this as well).

Please don't get me wrong, I am not getting a Mal to go hunting or do herding exclusively. I'm trying to learn about the breed as much as I can, hence the question.

Thank you for everybody's input so far.

Regards,
David


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## Jehane Michael Le Grange (Feb 24, 2009)

I think malinois prefer hunting people...\\/

My GSD has a funny thing he likes to do, I dont suppose you can call it hunting though but he starting doing it all out of his own:

When ever we would go for walks through the valley area near our house, he would be walking down the path about 20meters in front of me, only to stop dead in his tracks, pick his head up and test the air, before shooting off the side of the path and into dense bush or scrub. he would go intensly into the bush, probably about 30-40meters off the path where he originally picked up the scent and start sniffing intensely at the ground and before long come running out with a tortoise in his mouth. i would literally have to restle him to get it away from him and try re-focus him on the walk only to find that 100meters or so down the path, he would do it again and again and again. his all time record is 7 that he 'hunted' along the 500m stretch of path we usually walk down to the river. again, he has never ever been taught or encouraged to do this and it is purely the scent that activates him (coming back to that theory that certain scents to certain dogs activate something in the brain).

I really cant explain his fascination with tortoises. I should also add that this has occured on EVERY walk we have done for the last 7 years in this valley and other bushy areas. he only does it with tortoises though:-s


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I've placed a few Mals for hunting applications, but it's not the first breed I would think of, not because they can't do it but because other breeds are being specifically bred for it. One was used for bear during the summer, and then in the winter was used to locate dens so they could be marked, the owner worked for a pipeline up in Alaska. A couple have been used for blood trailing. Had another guy contact me wanting one to hunt for antlers that had been shed, guess that counts as hunting body parts, not game LOL I've heard of various people using them for bird and other small game hunting also.

The drive and ability is there in terms of the tracking/trailing or they wouldn't be any good at SAR and police work, but I think you'd have to teach them what game you wanted them to hunt. I could see using them as a weekend warrior type thing, or if you just wanted one dog for many different applications, but if hunting was a consistent, serious thing, and the dogs number one purpose, I'd be looking at breeds bred for the type of hunting you wanted to do.

As far as their feet go, I don't think its an issue in the breed in general. I've seen some dogs with tender feet, but overall I wouldn't call it a problem in the breed. My dogs never had a problem with their feet when we went trail riding, and they covered a lot more ground than the horses did chasing/killing rabbits, squirrels, etc. Oh, and the dogs I've known with tender feet didn't have a problem with the pads cracking/tearing any more than other dogs, they just seemed more sensitive, like a person in bare feet walking across the gravel, some are mincing a little while other's don't.


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## David Petruescu (Aug 19, 2011)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I've placed a few Mals for hunting applications, but it's not the first breed I would think of, not because they can't do it but because other breeds are being specifically bred for it. One was used for bear during the summer, and then in the winter was used to locate dens so they could be marked, the owner worked for a pipeline up in Alaska. A couple have been used for blood trailing. Had another guy contact me wanting one to hunt for antlers that had been shed, guess that counts as hunting body parts, not game LOL I've heard of various people using them for bird and other small game hunting also.


Actually antler shed "hunting" would probably be the first "hunting" type exercise I'd do. It should be loads of fun, you are actually out and about, in the hills. Dog is using his nose, can work on scent identification and obedience, kids can get involved and can make a game out of it.

I'll look at some hunting/scent dedicated sites, but how would one go about making sure that the dog imprints on the antler smell and not the person that held it last? I guess this is probably a general scent detection/tracking question that I'll need to research more.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I can tell you one big drawback.....foxtails and other vegetation. Hard to find them if you have a hairy dog. They can cause all kinds of grief like blindness, deafness, countless abcesses and they can travel all over inside the body.


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## catherine hardigan (Oct 12, 2009)

I fox hunt by horseback in the winter months and I've never seen anything other than a foxhound used. I'm sure there are mals who could do it too, but a good foxhound just does it by heart.

Foxhounds live as a pack, spend all day hunting in cold weather, are around large groups of strange people, are around large groups of galloping horses... and the list goes on. They have to be very social. Why spend all the time and energy finding and training a mal when a foxhound does it anyway?

Start of the season for of the more famous hunt clubs:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qe54XooQIYM


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Feist is one of the highest titled Malinois ever in North America. Ask Michael Ellis or Lisa Maze how they trained him.
> 
> http://loupsdusoleil.com/our-dogs/feist/
> 
> My two Malinois killed a skunk. Does that count? :razz: I might start up bow hunting next fall. We cannot use blood tracking dogs in the state of Missouri (on deer at least, they don't care about hogs), otherwise I would definitely try to use my dog.


I just got off th phone with the owner of one of my female pups that Lisa just met today. She met Fiest and said he was a wonderful dog.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I've got a mal PSD that will track a popcorn fart in a blizzard. He has several tracks under his belt that were in excess of a mile. 

DFrost


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

David Frost said:


> I've got a mal PSD that will track a popcorn fart in a blizzard. He has several tracks under his belt that were in excess of a mile.
> 
> DFrost


One of my buddies has one of those over here David. Maybe not a mile (depending on conditions lol) but damn good dog.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

David Frost said:


> I've got a mal PSD that will track a popcorn fart in a blizzard. He has several tracks under his belt that were in excess of a mile.
> 
> DFrost


What was he tracking David? All dogs have a sense of smell. It is more about what smells trigger the dog. You can teach a dog to track people effectively, tracking fast moving game is another world.


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## Charles Guyer (Nov 6, 2009)

I've been around birddogs all my life and don't believe that there is a genetic propensity to specific odors. Odor recognition is trained.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Yes, you can teach most any dog to track but, as with hunting dogs, it's all in the selection for a dog that will stay with the track be it animal or human.
Finding that dog and then training it for what you need is the key...or you can turn a young hunting dog loose with an older dog and hope he/she learns for that. Not so easy with tracking/trailing a man though. 
I've done both with dogs. Sport tracking and real world tracking/trailing/air scent. Hunting is a BUNCH easier! 
One of my daughters' Chi dogs can find it's toy when you tell her to but I would want to rely on that dog to find a lost person OR any sort of game.
Both just take the right dog. :razz: ;-)


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Charles Guyer said:


> I've been around birddogs all my life and don't believe that there is a genetic propensity to specific odors. Odor recognition is trained.


I disagree in part. While it may not be genetic per se. Much of what triggers them may have to do with environmental experiences. Many dogs have to see something to peak their interest. Some dogs are great cat dogs, others great bear dogs. Others it may take a burger n the stove. None of it was trained.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I disagree in part. While it may not be genetic per se. Much of what triggers them may have to do with environmental experiences. Many dogs have to see something to peak their interest. Some dogs are great cat dogs, others great bear dogs. Others it may take a burger n the stove. None of it was trained.


I've seen VERY few small terriers that weren't absolutely fascinated the first time they got the scent of a rat.
One of my own earth dogs showed a strong preference from the start for hunting raccoon in the ground in hay lofts.
Not so much with a couple of the show line terriers I've owned.


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> My guess would be if they had the desire to take, say a **** scent, and follow it for a mile without ever seeing the ****, they would be used for that. Dogs are bred for specific purposes. Take a hound that has never smelled a squirrel. The scent triggers something in his brain to the extent that his nose rules everything. That same scent probably wouldn't even make a mal slow down past a cursory sniff. All dogs can smell the scent, but, it is how different scents trigger the brain.


Not for my mal,

But if my mal and my pit (two females hunt together when we're out) smell squirrel and the track is long enough before it hits a tree they are on it. They also stalk up to them real close before sprinting after them. The mal, of course is less patient in the stalking arena, but she'll try for a few feet. Maybe that was a joke. Sorry, but my mal will track, find, and kill things. That's not something I allow when I can help it, but if we're out and I'm letting the dogs be dogs the two of them will track and catch small animals and even try to eat them:-&:-&:-& (gross). I've since kept them on the long leads or take them out alone (one w/o the other). Not sure how that would work if the scent is not hot n' fresh though. 

p.s. - I'm using Tim's computer.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> What was he tracking David? All dogs have a sense of smell. It is more about what smells trigger the dog. You can teach a dog to track people effectively, tracking fast moving game is another world.


What he was tracking is certainly questionable. The dog did, however, start at one place, looking for someone specific and end with that specific someone found and in custody. I'll leave the "what was he tracking" to the professionals to define. 

DFrost


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I disagree in part. While it may not be genetic per se. Much of what triggers them may have to do with environmental experiences. Many dogs have to see something to peak their interest. Some dogs are great cat dogs, others great bear dogs. Others it may take a burger n the stove. None of it was trained.


It really isn't the same. I've got a little of both here that I am working with. The DDBx and Dutch Shepherd. There's no way I'd put that DS up against the DDBx in the wild. They're wired differently and to say that really is an understatement. I get intensity from the DS for a toy, but you put a bear or moose out there (unseen) and that mastiff moves like a missle on the scent. It's like I lose track of time when I catch her doing that. It's mesmerizing and incredible to watch Willow work big game scent.

The herder, different story and different application. Though, I have caught her mimicing the DDBx manner of play and I have caught her working scent with the DDBx that isn't toy related. I feel lucky that the DS pup can grow up in an environment with a dog that goes after big and small (for that matter) game. I'll be interested in seeing where this DS pup is in another year.

Honestly, I've worried for the DS. The mastiff knows what's familiar and unfamiliar in her world. The DS largely seems to be locked in on her reward or possession of such. The day will eventually come when the reward isn't going to matter and something, much more important will be riding on the line.


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## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

I 'll just keep my opinion(s) about malinois as trackers to myself as to not start a keyboard riot. LoL!


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Feist du Loups du Soleil and his mother Notoire des Ombres Valeureux.


Those dogs are really beautiful......


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## David Petruescu (Aug 19, 2011)

Nicole Stark said:


> Honestly, I've worried for the DS. The mastiff knows what's familiar and unfamiliar in her world. The DS largely seems to be locked in on her reward or possession of such. The day will eventually come when the reward isn't going to matter and something, much more important will be riding on the line.


Nicole,

What happens when you are hiking and come up on a bear, does your DS not alert or charge the bear? Will he just ignore the animal? What would happen if the bear would charge?

As far as reward/possession goes, could you make it (through training) that the chase and the animal being chased is it's own reward. 

-David


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

David Petruescu said:


> Nicole,
> 
> What happens when you are hiking and come up on a bear, does your DS not alert or charge the bear? Will he just ignore the animal? What would happen if the bear would charge?
> 
> ...


The DS is a pup right now and hasn't yet encountered a bear. She will though. The difference though is that the DS stays close, the mastiff is highly independent and goes off looking for scent/animals to follow. I've seen the DS 20' from a large bird on the ground and not even notice it was there. As I said I have seen her work scent but her interest is not strong enough in it to follow. That is obviously, quite a difference between her and the mastiff who has always been inclined to follow scent.

The DS I speculate will be rather small in maturity and frankly I don't want it going after a bear. I have seen no interest in other animals from her so I don't know what she might do if she sees a bear but if charged I expect that she'd run.

This isn't something I am looking to foster to be honest with you. When I had two DDB I was more comfortable with their interest in big game. I had hoped the DS would make a suitable companion for the DDB in that environment but I don't see that happening - not with this particular one anyway.

Also, this environment is pretty harsh. I've been charged by a brown bear who was in the process of downing a tree that a black bear was in and last summer I'm fairly certain a few seconds made all the difference in me still having my mastiff today as she encountered a brown bear with two cubs in grass that was about 6' high. It's a terrible feeling hearing a bear grunting at your dog and you haven't a visual on the dog and know that if they tie up I wouldn't be able to stop it.


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## David Petruescu (Aug 19, 2011)

Although I am not that interested in hunting with a Mal, I am very much interested in backpacking with one and while I really would not want him/her to chase critters around I would want a warning when something is hidden in the bush. If not a bark at least some sort of indication that something's there.

I've hiked a number of times where I've come up the trail with mountain lion and even black bear and although I cherish the experience I don't really like the surprise to it all, so having the dog "tell" me that there's something hidden or whatever would be very beneficial.

I've considered a hunting breed as a second dog, but found that they are really driven and would trail/charge said animals rather then just warn.

Thanks
David


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Yes that is certainly the case with my DDB (engaging). Its kinda like the difference you see in her when there's an issue with people. Loud warnings and displays of aggression but unlikely she'd ever engaged if pressed. With the DS, while she isn't aggressive if given the chance she does bite and without hesitation. 

Concerning animals, I have the exact opposite reaction in them. There's total silence from the DDB, I've never seen a big dog move so effortlessly and almost without noise. The DS is usually busy looking for something else entirely while the mastiff is rooting around across a river or a few hundred yards away. What the DS hunts for and desires to possess is entirely different. As someone who spends hours watching my dogs do whatever it is that they do best I find the stark contrast rather fascinating.


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## David Petruescu (Aug 19, 2011)

Thanks Nicole for the info. What would or does your DS do when he sees a moose? Still nothing?

I would assume that if a rabbit would get spooked, the DS would give chase or not even that? I've never had a dog not chase hapless animals (including cats)


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

David Petruescu said:


> Thanks Nicole for the info. What would or does your DS do when he sees a moose? Still nothing?
> 
> I would assume that if a rabbit would get spooked, the DS would give chase or not even that? I've never had a dog not chase hapless animals (including cats)


No idea - not yet anyway. The reason for that is I have either been training her on something unrelated, working, or she's been on the trails for short distances with the 4 wheeler. When that occurs she wants the mastiff in place and also wants not too much distance between the 4 wheeler or the mastiff. If it gets too far apart she races ahead to cut the mastiff off and when she gets tired of that she gets on the 4 wheeler for a ride along. I expect she'd start a chase but I think it'd be short lived. Eventually, I will know what she will do - I just don't know as of right now.

With the mastiff around, or usually what the case is, is that she's not around but someplace else the DS doesn't follow her. She did once and Willow left her at someone's property. Since then she follows her for a hundred feet or so and that's about it. 

Her agenda is entirely different. Entirely is really an understatement about how she goes about her business. She's looking for things to pick up and collect. God forbid something is left on the ground because she wants that too. Rocks, paper, etc it doesn't matter she wants to have it and that want grows to a little bit of madness if I decide I want it too. Along the way with one or two items in her mouth she'll usually fit in a piss here and there.

The differences are a little bizarre honestly considering what I have become accustomed to, but it's fun exploiting a little of each.


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## David Petruescu (Aug 19, 2011)

Thank you and all those that contributed, I appreciate it. I'm curious to see how my future pup will end up 

-David


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

David, is it your intention to get a Mal for hiking and an animal deterrent? If so, is there a reason you didn't consider a GSD instead? I speculate that you might find a better balance there for what you may want? 

Jennifer Coulter (WDF member) has a Mal that she spends a good deal of time out and about with, and I believe she would have better input on this topic than I at the moment.


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## David Petruescu (Aug 19, 2011)

Not specifically. I was asking because hiking/backpacking is something I do quite a bit and wanted to know what to expect  At the moment I take my wife's chiwini rescue and he's doing well except he barks at EVERYTHING 

Actually I'm hoping for an all around dog that I can do a variety of things with (Sch, herding, agility) and since I hunt and have been around hunting dogs I was curious as to why I never see Mals (or GSDs for that matter).

Thanks for your input.


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