# Signs of a High Drive Dog



## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Spawned from one of Jeff's threads...what do you think are the signs of a truly driven dog? The one who constantly barks high-pitched, jumping up and down at the end of the backtie wanting to get at the decoy? Would you judge a dog's drive by the way he strikes vs. his overall energy (hard to describe, but some dogs will snap like a snake as soon as you get within their reach or throw themselves at the prey from all angles)...etcetera. I've seen what some people describe as a dog with good drives be turned down as nothing special by another, so I'd like to see some input on this.


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## Liz Monty (Oct 22, 2006)

I think I'm setting myself up here for jabs, hope not :lol: 

I think of drive as showing most in this way: a wolf sneaks up quietly and then gets close enough to chase, catch and kill - high drive. A cat silently creeps along the grass to pounce on a mouse, bite and kill and eat it (after lots of tossing it in the air play) - high drive. A hawk floats above quietly and then dives to catch, kill and eat - high drive. Sure it's a drive for food, but still a drive, and the way they behave during that drive is what I like to see in a puppy. I trust the silent, tenacious, and forward action more as an indication, than the "overly stimulated" actions. In sport dogs, the stimulation is learned, but the birth genetics would probably show a more silent type of prey action. I think that the Protection dog training to key up the dog on an alert is trained as a useful tool in scaring the would be attacker off. Also, holding back a dog/puppy from it's prey is the one way of building that barking reaction, *so it's hard to determine what real prey is in there*, because the dog has been trained to perform it's natural prey behaviour the way man wants it to.
Even being fenced in a kennel, the dog will learn to bark keyed up when he can't get to the prey on the outside of the fence. This is because the fence is not a natural environment in the genetic makeup of any prey animal.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

WOW! You know absolutely nothing of what we talk about here.

Here is your sign. =;


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Liz Monty said:


> I think I'm setting myself up here for jabs, hope not :lol:


You have alot to learn, between this post and your post on tug work I'm wondering if you know anything about dog training? Do you DO any training? What for and who with?


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## Liz Monty (Oct 22, 2006)

Lyn Chen said:


> The one who constantly barks high-pitched, jumping up and down at the end of the backtie wanting to get at the decoy? Would you judge a dog's drive by the way he strikes vs. his overall energy (hard to describe, but some dogs will snap like a snake as soon as you get within their reach or throw themselves at the prey from all angles)...etcetera.


As I said, *it's hard to know the dogs real natural drive, because they have already been trained to perform in a barking, jumping and pulling at lead behaviour, when they are already at the point that someone is asking how good their drive is*

All I did was take the question further back in time, to a puppy and it's natural behaviour. Can any one of you show a video of a puppy that has not yet been tied, held or fenced back from it's prey?????? I would like to see that pup barking all over the place instead of chasing down the prey in silence. How the heck can drive be rated by barking or being tied or being held back. IT CANNOT
Take the damn dog to the woods and let it go, then you will see how much prey it has. Prey is different than confidence or dominance - so how a dog acts on a controlled field in a training manupulated field, does not let you know what the dog really has in the way of prey. UNLESS of course the dog shows NO interest or LITTLE interest in the GAME. You guys are all talking about sport training and developing an action that resembles Prey and Drive

I'll say it again. You cannot determine the dog's real prey drive after it has been exposed to the drive building.


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## Liz Monty (Oct 22, 2006)

And at what year did a dog's genetics decide that a man in a bitesuit or a tug toy was prey to EAT. Sorry, you trained them to chase man, you made it a game with the ends of a purpose - BITE MAN on command, BARK at MAN on command.

Good Purpose, YES, Show dogs Drive, NO

Sport Drive is not and never will be a natural measure of Drive. BUTTTTT, sport DEFENCE and FIGHT while on the decoy and being truly threatened will be a measure of "FIGHT" NOT PREY

Take that to the hand Jeff and Mike.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Lyn does that have anything at all to do with the answer you were looking for?


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## Liz Monty (Oct 22, 2006)

Lyn Chen said:


> The one who constantly barks high-pitched, jumping up and down at the end of the backtie wanting to get at the decoy? (hard to describe, but some dogs will snap like a snake as soon as you get within their reach or throw themselves at the prey from all angles)...etcetera. I've seen what some people describe as a dog with good drives be turned down as nothing special by another, so I'd like to see some input on this.


The way I read it, most definately


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Well obviously the way you read it, or you wouldn't have responded with all that, I wasn't asking you, I was asking the original poster since it was her question to begin with. Her question sounds more like she's asking about drives in the way we relate to them in bitework not in the way a monkey chases a running banana.


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

Liz has IMO a very valid point. She took the rebukes on the chin, and hung on...

Obviously, obviously, a high drive dog will exclude other stimuli when focused on his desire; will persist in the pursuit of his desire; will show anxiety if the desire is unfulfilled.

If you consider what Don Turnipseed does with his dogs...almost no training...you'll see a good REAL measure of drive(s). In puppies also. But in a dog that has ample foundation, how much of what you see is natural and how much is "developed"? I don't know. Frequently one hears - and says - "The dog suddenly turned on!". Was it there already, was it learned, how much of each... But it's a very valid point.

Would a dog naturally be "ball crazy", carry a Kong in his mouth all day, or spin, spin, spin in anticipation of a bite?

The only time I think about a dog's "drive" is when I'm picking a puppy. After that, I forget the meaning of the word and start educating.

:lol:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I think the potential/genetics for high drive has to be there.
Same as Don with his airedales, That pretty much how we start earth work with terriers. You can't train a dog to go into a 6inch, pitch black, 20-30ft long, winding hole if the potential/genetics aren't there. 
Doing it wrong and pumping up a young dog will only get his a$$ chewed up.


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

Lyn, do you have pics of your dog?


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

All replies worth thinking about...my original question is related to bitework, naturally, it just seems like prey drive is a lot more complicated than we give it credit for, so I thought I'd ask to see what people have to say about it. Valid points about how prey drive can be 'taught'...we know there are two schools of thought when it comes to puppies, teach them early or let the real dog come out when he's older? If prey drive becomes a conditioned response, can it still be a fair evaluation of a dog?


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## Simon Mellick (Oct 31, 2006)

In the context of bitework, the only prey drive I care about is that which can be directed at a prey item or a helper. If a dog's drive can't be chanelled towards a helper, what do I care about how the dog would naturally stalk a squirrel? 
Obviously the dog's training history has to be taken into account if you're evaluating it, but a dog's commitment and excitement in bitework is (IMO) more indicative of "good" prey drive than a dog's natural hunting tendancies.

Simon


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## Liz Monty (Oct 22, 2006)

Liz Monty said:


> Take the damn dog to the woods and let it go, then you will see how much prey it has. *Prey is different than confidence or dominance - so how a dog acts on a controlled field in a training manupulated field, does not let you know what the dog really has in the way of prey. UNLESS of course the dog shows NO interest or LITTLE interest in the GAME.* You guys are all talking about sport training and developing an action that resembles Prey and Drive


Simon,

I basically said the same thing. If you are applying PreyDrive to the sport.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

<<<so I'd like to see some input on this.>>>

I dont like getting into word games, so I'll keep my input short. For me it's the eyes and the posture. All the barking and jumping regardless of the pitch is just so much fluff. 

I'll also say, and not to be mean, just an observation, Ms Monty, you really have a lot to learn. That's not a bad thing. Learning does require one to ask questions. I don't really know how to say this, your questions often demonstrate a real lack of knowledge. I can understand why it's difficult for you to get an answer at times. It's almost as if you are doing it intentionally to get smart ass remarks.

Please understand I'm not saying this as a moderator, but as a contributor to a thread.

DFrost


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: If prey drive becomes a conditioned response, can it still be a fair evaluation of a dog?

Ok, Ok, we have to stop for a second.

Prey drive is a conditioned response? NOOOOOOO it is an instinct. What you are trying to do with a dog is reach the upper threshold and reward that to get the most out of a dog that is less than spectacular.

A dog with good drive doesn't need drive building. Anything less is NOT good drives and you are behind the 8 ball.

A dog with high drives, you can't imagine doing drive work with for the life of you.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Jeff, I was referring to the 'bark bark bark leap leap leap' response that is created in a lot of sport dogs, and seems to be what many are calling 'high drive' these days...I distinctly remember being advised to 'build drive' by moving a toy when a dog barks, and so on. Not that it ever worked for my dog. He stared at me blankly and slept. :evil:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Those are called displacement behaviors. Isn't learning fun? They stem from frustrated drive. Yaaaaay learning.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Lyn Chen said:


> I was referring to the 'bark bark bark leap leap leap' response that is created in a lot of sport dogs, and seems to be what many are calling 'high drive' these days...
> 
> 
> > You can tell a high drive dog to sit down and shut up without any impact in the work performance... if the work suffers the dog probably needs more drive.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Nice. Yeah, learning a lot. Speak some more please. :lol:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Quote Mike:
"You can tell a high drive dog to sit down and shut up without any impact in the work performance... if the work suffers the dog probably needs more drive."

That can also be a learned behavior if the dog knows that sitting down and being quiet will earn something (Toy/food/bite), it won't affect the drive other then raise it.


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## Liz Monty (Oct 22, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Quote Mike:
> "You can tell a high drive dog to sit down and shut up without any impact in the work performance... if the work suffers the dog probably needs more drive."
> 
> That can also be a learned behavior if the dog knows that sitting down and being quiet will earn something (Toy/food/bite), it won't affect the drive other then raise it.


There you go, two separate opinions on prey drive. I don't see me telling you guys you know nothing about dogs. So give it a rest when you are talking to me. Most of my questions have been about this very issue, what is best for working with the prey tugs and does it affect the dog's natural drives. I keep asking over and over again, IF I play tug and then correct the dog for getting nippy on me, will I be ruining her confidence in drive??????
I ask because I DO NOT know the answer to this specific area. But I do know a natural drive when I see it in a not yet trained dog. Big deal, either people are threatened by this or they are just plain so into their own ideas that anyone who has a different idea is insulted. Nice Forum.

Down boys, sit and stay, cause I might be the best example of Hard Headed and Driven, it would be a loss to learn to reckognize it. :evil:


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Quote Mike:
> "You can tell a high drive dog to sit down and shut up without any impact in the work performance... if the work suffers the dog probably needs more drive."
> 
> That can also be a learned behavior if the dog knows that sitting down and being quiet will earn something (Toy/food/bite), it won't affect the drive other then raise it.


I've seen both, I see dogs loose alot of intensity thru being made to sit early on in their bitework before alot of drive building has taken place, but they are somewhere near borderline on drive to begin with, the dogs who are more driven and focused get even more worked up as you said. So perhaps not the best indication of what a "high drive" dog is, but maybe a good indication of weeding out the low drive dogs that put on a halfway decent show bouncing around on the end of a leash


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I think in selecting a pup, we look for dogs that have the POTENTIAL for high drive. 
As you say Mike, lots of things will weed out the ones that don't have it, or need more building.
If we only selected dogs that we take out in the woodsa and see what kind of drive thay have.......well.....we'd all be training coyotes.


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## Liz Monty (Oct 22, 2006)

but Bob, if you knew about Coyotees, you would know that they run from people and hide, just like a fox. Coyotees have no hardness, a puppy on the other hand will show it's drive, it will continue to chase even if the kennel owner tells it to stop, stands in it's way, places a strange object near the prey. Coyotees are th worst example you could have given.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Yeah Bob, Coyotes, what on earth were you thinking? We all know Hyena's woulda been the better analogy... :lol: :lol:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

True! Hyenas HAVE been know to kill and eat people. Coyotes are cowards. They only eatya if yer dead already. My bad!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Liz Monty said:


> but Bob, if you knew about Coyotees, you would know that they run from people and hide, just like a fox. Coyotees have no hardness, a puppy on the other hand will show it's drive, it will continue to chase even if the kennel owner tells it to stop, stands in it's way, places a strange object near the prey. Coyotees are th worst example you could have given.


Liz. It was a joke. 

I want to point something out. When we ask questions, they are answered. (Or at least attempted.)

It's when we type a couple or more paragraphs about something that has zero to do with the topic, or that purports to give factual info about drives, training, etc., but is just flat-out uninformed, that we run into slap-downs.

If we read and ask (on the threads where we are not experienced and educated) rather than expound, then we will not suffer nearly so many jibes and insults. :wink:


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## Liz Monty (Oct 22, 2006)

Thanks Connie, but I am experienced in reckognizing high drive puppies, so I feel I fit in here. But thanks for the input, because I am guilty of what you say in regard to some other threads.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Down boys, sit and stay, cause I might be the best example of Hard Headed and Driven, it would be a loss to learn to reckognize it. 

Here is the thing. I am talking about prey drive, and it absoduckinlutly has nothing to do with chasing a rabbit. When I talk about prey drive, and you tell me you know what I am talking about, then go on expounding on something completely different..........  your bad.

Then, we are talking about training in bitework, and the things you say not only have nothing to do with what we are talking about, sound like something dead old Marlin Perkins might have busted out while ol' Jim did all the grunt work.

As far as telling me to sit and stay, be glad your in computer land. I don't take kindly to people talking to me like a dog.


Quote:Thanks Connie, but I am experienced in reckognizing high drive puppies, so I feel I fit in here


Of what breed? How many litters of GSD, Mal, or similar type have you bred? I am curious, because you sound like you are talking about hunting dogs all the time. And yes it is a nice forum.


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## Liz Monty (Oct 22, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Down boys, sit and stay, cause I might be the best example of Hard Headed and Driven, it would be a loss to learn to reckognize it.
> 
> *As far as telling me to sit and stay, be glad your in computer land. I don't take kindly to people talking to me like a dog.*
> 
> ...


Will then Jeff, stop talking to me like I'm a dog, I also don't take kindly to that.

Let's see: A malinois litter from Bronc, A GSD litter from Anni, A Malamute litter from Jenna, and having the priviledge of baby sitting Puppy and Sch 3, Civil dog at the REAL GSD sites owner's kennel, the priviledge of being fully involved in my Friend Roger's newest GSD litter, at the moment babysitting All his dogs for the next 5 days. 

Lets see more: I have picked 3 puppies at 7-10 weeks of age who under my home and training conditions have been sold later and are working Drug Detection (2 of them) and the other a PPD/Patrol dog for a Security Company. Did sport dog training, never.


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## Liz Monty (Oct 22, 2006)

To be specific, I did not do the breedings, I got stuck with the whelping, puppy care and development and determinating which pups went to what types of homes.


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## Liz Monty (Oct 22, 2006)

oops, my real bad: I forgot the fourth puppy I picked at 6 weeks of age, extreme high drives. She later went to a police officer in Toronto Ontario.

All of which has nothing to do with other threads where i ask about training with tugs and sport development. Because ............ my other pups did not do tug training, I used outdoor, obstacle and scent work, therefore, I did not have this current problem with understanding bite work/tugs/handler aggression.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Liz, these are the type of contradictions that have us baffled. Here your talking about the pups that you've raised and later they became PPD, PSD and drug dogs, and you determine which pups went to what type homes. All fine and good but in another form your having a horrible time with what sounds like a totally normal, mouthy puppy. Can you see where we have such conflicts about what you say?


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## Liz Monty (Oct 22, 2006)

bob, it's what I edited in the above post. These pups where directed in scent work. The PPD where directed in territorial praise and a lot of exposure to situations that built their confidence. I never played tug with them, so they never looked at me as a play toy. Both dogs who went to PPD work or patrol work proved they would bite, so that is where they went.
At the very begginning of my posts I stated that Bella was soooo good and she never mouthed and followed directions wonderfully. My problems with her being pushy began after I started the tug play with her.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

> At the very begginning of my posts I stated that Bella was soooo good and she never mouthed and followed directions wonderfully. My problems with her being pushy began after I started the tug play with her.


What are you training Bella for?

I like pushy dogs. I would be upset if I had a working puppy that didn't want to bite me, I'd probably send the pup back n make em give me a good one or go to a different litter.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

It's almost like you're blaming tug for what may be lack of something else.  Remember, dogs grow up. They don't always stay as pups.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

WTF is territorial praise there, nutty pants?

I have never spoken to you like a dog. A dumbass maybe, but not a dog.


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## Liz Monty (Oct 22, 2006)

Mike, 
I got Bella for my own personal pet, the last dog I worked for selling was 5 years ago. I got lonely without a GSD. But of course, once you have one, you end up with that urge to do or train in some form with them. I also stated this at the beginning of my posts when I joined. So I mentioned that I would consider sport training and learning about it. I did not choose her for a high drive, but she is developing in that way. I don't mind either, just not what I thought I was getting. She was chosen out of two pups for me to come look at. I did not spend any time testing and watching her interact with the other pups. I even said in one post that I immediately fell in love with her the second I saw her. She was calm, followed me around and ignored the other dogs. She had great eye contact. Gentle and smart looking eyes. I chose her on the spot for those qualities alone, didn't even consider if she showed prey or not. Just wanted a new dog for myself. It was after I had her that I began to seriously feel I may want to do work/sport with her. Sport being a new concept to my.

Jeff,
Territorial Praise is the same as what you do in sport/prey praise. Just minus the tug or ball or bite suit. If the dog shows territorial behaviour, you praise and build their confidence, then you guide it with the obedience and build upon that confidence. Some dogs will not go beyond the act of barking, snarling if in a real situation. The ones that do, go on to be selected by Security companies or Police Forces if their own testers see what you have done with the dog and they like what the dog shows them in their own test enviroment.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

note to self....

it's ok for moderators to pile on and criticize a poster, but others cannot.

got it...


please continue...


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Tim Martens said:


> note to self....
> 
> it's ok for moderators to pile on and criticize a poster, but others cannot.
> 
> ...


You're kidding, right? That's what you call my post?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Hey, does that mean I don't get to do this either? Shit, that fuckin sucks.


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## Liz Monty (Oct 22, 2006)

edit to above - same as working tracking/air scent and object finds. The praise comes with each step the pup takes towards any natural tendancies, then streamlined toward wanted scents or people tracking. 

The biggest advantage to what I have done, is that the dog is usually showing it's work ability as reliable by a year and a half of age, if they are truely capable. Plus I don't spend money in clubs and travelling to clubs at a far distance, plus waiting for the bite work to be at the level of using a muzzle. I love the outdoors, love dogs and it fit perfect for me.

Another big plus, is that the dogs tend to stay handler respectful and do not mistake the handler as part of the tug toy, as I am seeing now with Bella and having trouble with this problem because I have never experienced this specifically before. It's a new concept i have to learn about. Every day, i am back and forth trying to decide if I want to venture into uknown sport training or stick with what I have done before.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: The ones that do, go on to be selected by Security companies or Police Forces if their own testers see what you have done with the dog and they like what the dog shows them in their own test enviroment.

Wait a minute, Canadian police dogs suck. This all makes sense now. Perhaps you should try quasi-moto praise. Or Toyota thon praise. Perhaps there is the bad guy, growl and have your hair up like the cur you are praise. Do it randomly, then have your husband push you in a mock fight to see if your dog has protective instincts. :roll:


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

You have tried to play tug with this one dog. Others have lots of success with it. Please don't say a method is such and such until you've tried it to its full capacity. This is one of my problems with some posts in this board. :evil:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Yeah, and put the book down. You have to UNDERSTAND it before you start plagerizing it.


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## Liz Monty (Oct 22, 2006)

Liz Monty said:


> The biggest advantage to what I have done, is that the dog is usually showing it's work ability as reliable by a year and a half of age, if they are truely capable. Plus I don't spend money in clubs and travelling to clubs at a far distance, plus waiting for the bite work to be at the level of using a muzzle. I love the outdoors, love dogs and it fit perfect for me.
> 
> *Another big plus, is that the dogs tend to stay handler respectful and do not mistake the handler as part of the tug toy, as I am seeing now with Bella and having trouble with this problem because I have never experienced this specifically before. It's a new concept i have to learn about. Every day, i am back and forth trying to decide if I want to venture into uknown sport training or stick with what I have done before.*


Lyn, yes, I should have said Another big plus To ME, is that the dogs I worked tended to stay more handler respectful, and not mistake the handler as part of the tug toy, than Bella is doing right now.

My mistake in writing.

Jeff. I have no idea where you get these ideas from, by the way, I have myself insulted some of these Ontario Police dogs, I don't know how many times they have missed cadavers that should have been easy to step on top of. I have heard from officer's I know about the huge amount of misses. But, that is not an implication of my base work, it is an implication of what has been done with the dog after it is purchased by someone. My dogs always tracked, found items and did very good airscent before they where sold., if they where not, then why did some of our best selection people want them. But I did not ever claim to specialize in Cadaver, I did live search/article finds.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

liz,

i have a friend who has some contacts in the ontario area. what are some of the names of handlers you've sold dogs to? or maybe just the names of the dogs. i'm just curious to hear what the handlers of _your_ dogs have to say....


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## Liz Monty (Oct 22, 2006)

Tim, I don't mind giving the names of the dogs at all. As for who has purchased I only have the rights to give the security company, who uses two of my dogs as narcotic dogs. They bought Tonka (call name) and Annie (call name). You may indeed have a hard time talking to their handler, she doesn't appreciate people's character's who come off as A holes.
Good luck if you may, contact is Christine from Llewellyn Kennels Security and Narcotic/bomb K9 Detection. The largest Company in Canada, Not hard to find. Have fun now Tim. They also have Blue (call name) from me, he is a patrol dog with their company. As for the Police Officer in Toronto, I have been told explicitly not to advertise.
Have fun, it's too bad your a cop, you make them look bad. I bet your the type of cop who really handles most women with pretty low regard.


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## Liz Monty (Oct 22, 2006)

Tim, actually really enquire lots about Tonka, their narcotic dog from me, with my basework in man search done to prove his obedience, level of drive and devotion to his work. Have you ever got an offer of 3 thousand dollars for a dog?????? That is what they where willing to pay for him.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

OOOOOOOOO 3 grand? That is impressive.

I got 3500 way back in the day. I guess you got pwned.

Woody, help me out here, I don't have a cool pic to put here.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

where to start....

let's start here...if i were ever offered $3000 for a dog, i'd either: a) be really insulted, b) give up on ever working with dogs again, c) just write them off as a n00b (like you).

we have "security companies" here too. basically they are the morons who either don't have what it takes to be a police officer, or they have criminal records that prohibit them from becoming police officers. a few of these companies have "patrol dogs", and let's just say if i were a supplier of dogs to these companies, i too wouldn't give any names.

so now it's one police officer in toronto? yesterday you were speaking of several dogs that work for Ontario that are now crap, but were fantastic after your base training. which is it? is this just another one of your juvenile lies? don't answer that. we all know already...

it's too bad you're a know-nothing idiot masquerading as a knowledgeable dog person. you give know-nothing idiots a bad name....


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

jeff, how bout this one...


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

That is a good one for sure.


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## Liz Monty (Oct 22, 2006)

Tim Martens said:


> where to start....
> 
> let's start here...if i were ever offered $3000 for a dog, i'd either: a) be really insulted, b) give up on ever working with dogs again, c) just write them off as a n00b (like you).
> 
> ...


Tim, learn how to read the posts before commenting. The referrence to several police k9's in Canada was in response to a post from Jeff, I think that Canadian Police K9's where crap, I agreed with him that some in Ontario where talked about as being crap and missing cadavers that should have been easy to find. I made it quite clear, that these WHERE NOT dogs that I had ever trained or sold.
As for security companies, very few do narcotic/bomb detection this one does. I don't care how many dogs you guys claim to have sold, that could imply puppies as well as possible older trained dogs. And to who you sold them to who knows. So numbers are not the subject here at all.

I have from day one said that I have gotten 4 dogs trained and ready to prove their ability to do the work that the purchasers wanted them for. Tonka went through two separate testing kennels and he was referred to Llewellyn by both as a good search dog they would be interested in. The original contract was to buy him for government work as some kind of friendly man search dog to do with Immigration. Details where not given. The contract fell through for them and they instead began using him in their Narcotic Detection. He has done a number of jails and schools for years now. 
Go ahead their number is toll free 24 hours a day, just ask if Tonka is one of their dogs and what he does, the person on radio duty will surely love to tell you that much at least.
Start reading posts correctly, especially about the many police k9's in Canada. Stop posting replies with twisted wording to make me look bad, you are just making yourself look bad in the long run if others look up the previous post in Reply to Jeff's post about crappy Canadian dogs...

It seems like you just can't loose face and will forever keep trying to make me look like a liar, your having a really hard time taking that comment back. That says much about your character.


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## Liz Monty (Oct 22, 2006)

Tim Martens said:


> we have "security companies" here too. basically they are the morons who either don't have what it takes to be a police officer, or they have criminal records that prohibit them from becoming police officers. a few of these companies have "patrol dogs", and let's just say if i were a supplier of dogs to these companies, i too wouldn't give any names.
> 
> *Now your insulting Security Workers, where do you end! Two of the dogs I sold to This Security Company is not just surprissed of Patrol Security, but also well respected in Canada for Narcotic and Bomb detection, performed by only two handlers who own the company.*
> 
> ...


*Again, look above about that post in reply to Jeff, it never said anything about several dogs in Ontario that are now crap, but I made them better. You again and again and again, are twisting the wording to save face.*[/b]


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

> Llewellyn Security


Sorry, for being "the largest", I was a little disappointed in their website quality, but overlooking that, they lost me with their crap about having produced "their own breed", that's a big red flag for me, I don't care who they are.


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## Liz Monty (Oct 22, 2006)

As a matter of fact Tim, why don't you post my reply Private Message to you where you asked me to prove the story about passing a K9 in Calgary and you said I was making up the story. Cause if you don't post my replies to you, I will. Let's let everyone see how you really deal with getting the proof you demand, and then not even calling to check that proof out.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

nobody needs to twist your words to make you look like crap. you do a better job of that than any of us could ever do.

the military has a deal over here like what you do. it's called the puppy project. it's alive and well over at lackland air force base. they have a breeding program and when the dogs have puppies, they give the puppies to pre-approved families to raise them until they are about a year old. at that time the military takes them back and begins their training. those families are specifically told not to train the dog at all. basically just feed them and pick up their crap. i imagine this is similar to your regimen.

a friend of mine works one of these dogs as an explosive detector dog for a very large PD over here. they name all of the dogs after the last names of people who died during the 9/11 attacks.

insulting security workers? yes. 



liz "the liar" monty said:


> I have myself insulted some of these Ontario Police dogs, I don't know how many times they have missed cadavers that should have been easy to step on top of. I have heard from officer's I know about the huge amount of misses. _But, that is not an implication of *my* base work_, it is an implication of what has been done with the dog after it is purchased by someone.


one certainly draws the conclusion that you're saying your base training has nothing to do with these dogs poor performance. do you not see this? are you one of those french canadians and english is your second language? i can buy that. if not, then i'm afraid you're just not very literate....


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

feel free to post whatever private messages you want. i would advise you against it however. they will not make you look any better and will only further prove that you are full of beans...


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## Liz Monty (Oct 22, 2006)

Tim Martens said:


> the military has a deal over here like what you do. it's called the puppy project. it's alive and well over at lackland air force base. they have a breeding program and when the dogs have puppies, they give the puppies to pre-approved families to raise them until they are about a year old. at that time the military takes them back and begins their training. those families are specifically told not to train the dog at all. basically just feed them and pick up their crap. i imagine this is similar to your regimen.
> 
> Tim you really are an idiot, the way you just keep trying to put me down. Yeah, we have the same thing with seeing eye dogs, famlies who raise them and then the real trainers train them in their jobs.
> 
> ...


*"actually A-hole, I have a brain injury from being thrown off a horse, do you want to make fun of that one too. I seem to perform my personality functions better than my writing, but you are apparantly the opposite, what is your excuse"*

Mike, are you a Police Officer or just someone who likes to jump on the band wagon for the sake of looking as tuff as Tim.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Hey folks! I try not to be pushy about being a moderator but lets stop the crap insults ALL AROUND! 
It's NOT productive and it's getting to be my bed time. I'm old ya know!


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Liz Monty said:


> liz "the liar" monty said:
> 
> 
> > I have myself insulted some of these Ontario Police dogs, I don't know how many times they have missed cadavers that should have been easy to step on top of. I have heard from officer's I know about the huge amount of misses. _But, that is not an implication of *my* base work_, it is an implication of what has been done with the dog after it is purchased by someone.
> ...



you misquoted yourself. you changed the "by" to "from". BIG difference. one (by) implies that someone purchased the dog from you. the other (from) implies a random seller. 




Liz Monty said:


> *actually A-hole, I have a brain injury from being thrown off a horse, do you want to make fun of that one too. I seem to perform my personality functions better than my writing, but you are apparantly the opposite, what is your excuse"*


was this when you were riding in the kentucky derby? ok. i'm sorry. i didn't know i was picking on someone who has genuine mental issues. that explains a lot. perhaps if you had come clean sooner with the whole "my horse kicked me in the head" thing, people wouldn't have been so hard on you. i know i wouldn't have...


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## Liz Monty (Oct 22, 2006)

Bob, I don't think in this situation the thread should be closed. I don't need any protection from some of these guys. I know my own self worth and they certainly will never change that.

Mike - your comment about Llewellyn web site is just a way of saying that people who don't brag about what they do Dont' look as good as you, who obviously gets self ego by bragging.
About their own breed, it is strictly one man's desire to cross two breeds, not for registration purposes, but to have a patrol dog that is more intimidating to help the security officer's have an edge. These certainly are not the dogs that do any narcotic or bomb detection. Also, a good manager keeps their as you guys so kindly put it "looser security people" feeling proud of the job they do.

Me I'm proud of the dogs I trained, and I'm also proud of my formal education in Forensic Police Sciences, Sociology, and Police Tactical Skills. as I applied them to what a search dog and handler should know during searches. I don't need to be a cop, nor have a big kennel of dogs to do what made me happy.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Liz Monty said:


> Mike, are you a Police Officer or just someone who likes to jump on the band wagon for the sake of looking as tuff as Tim.


Has nothing to do with Tim, nor any bandwagon, I simply do not have any respect for anyone "creating their own breed", regardless of who they are where they're from or what they do or who told me about them. As for looking tough... yeah, like anyone would buy that if I tried :lol:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

At this point it's not about who's right or wrong. It's about all the insults. 
I've NEVER understood the fasination in insulting someone you've never met other then on a web site.
In the words of my old martial arts master:
"The words of a fool offend only another fool"! 
Lets get over it folks! I'm going to bed! 
"Say goodnight Gracy"! "Goodnight Gracy"!


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## Liz Monty (Oct 22, 2006)

Tim Martens said:


> ONE has tested them and rated their ability as capable.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow, you sure like to put stories into to things, kicked in the head (I said thrown off). Kentucky derby - another fantasy of yours. mental issues - again a strongly immplied statement there. 

I thought a cop was supposed to be educated on the differences regarding brain injuries as oppossed to mental issues: Mental issues relate to such things as deviant behaviours, mental illnesses like bipolar, schizophrenia, etc. Where did you go to cop school?


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

> who obviously gets self ego by bragging.


That's funny, I almost never go into any detail whatsoever about anything I do with my dogs on public forums. Videos of my dogs get emailed to the people who I want to see them. Mr Reanto asked me what I do with my dogs and my response is "they walk around the house stealing food off the kitchen counters".



> I have a brain injury from being thrown off a horse


Is this really true?


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I'm gonna take Bob's advice and go to bed. In between this thread and other various threads where everything about a dog is apparently genetic, it's making my head hurt. Yeah, can't wait til they finish sequencing the dog genome so we can find the locus for how a dog prefers to lick himself in inappropriate times in front of mixed company. :roll: Genetics is not quite my exact focus in biology, but we might have to have a little genetics and behavior 101 time. I'm a little concerned with how loosely the terms homozygous and true breeding are being thrown around here and by breeders in general who couldn't do a Punnett square if their life depended on it. Especially since so few mammalian complex behaviors are dictated by one locus. That's why so many neuroethologists don't study mammals because it gets way too darn hard way too fast, let alone letting molecular biology into the mix.


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## Liz Monty (Oct 22, 2006)

Liz Monty said:


> Me I'm proud of the dogs I trained, and I'm also proud of my formal education in Forensic Police Sciences, Sociology, and Police Tactical Skills. as I applied them to what a search dog and handler should know during searches. I don't need to be a cop, nor have a big kennel of dogs to do what made me happy.


*Tim your messages are far from subtle. With the statement about the Kentucky Derby - you again are suggesting that because I state the things I have done, that have been many because I am an active person, that I am a liar.*

Again, big the man you say you are and check for yourself.
- Sheridan College in Oakville Ontario, Police Sciences Program, 2 years completed with top grades. (under married name of Monty)
- Connestoga College in Kitchener Ontario, Zoologica/Attendant, specializing in Game Reserve Parks (under Maiden name of Whalen)
- Canadian Equestrian Adult Ametuer Hunter/Jumper, 1991-93
- Ontario Business College, ThunderBay Ontario, Animal Health Care Aid, Equivalent to the modern Animal Health Technician (under maiden name of Whalen)


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

I instructed my moderators yesterday evening to not lock the thread because I wanted to see how/if it'd fizzle out on its own. But this is getting ridiculous, it's not about thick skins or who can handle what insults, it's about taking over threads that may have been interesting with nonsensical BS. We are not here to listen to people call eachother names for hours on end. Liz, I've said it before and I will say it again: However much you think you know or however much experience you think you have, it's clear from your writing that you still have a long way to go. Your approach to dog training is odd to say the least, It's almost like you are a pet owner with some technical discovery-channel like knowledge that you try to apply to training in some roundabout style of common sense. Or perhaps you are just trying to show off on the forum as a new member trying to build your reputation as someone who goes deeper into and beyond the scope of the question asked, perhaps to appear smart? If that is the case, then it's evidently backfired n I suggest you try to rebuild your image and reputation here if you intend to continue posting long term. I will not stand for this type of conflict to go on here; if I am sitting here reading this forum 1 year from now and your posts still cause the stir they do today then I will be incredibly disappointed, but believe me, that *will not happen*.

Ordinarily I would just send you this in PM, but you opened the door to posting private messages on forums for attempted embarassment's sake; there is a reason they are called *Private* Messages. 

Please try to learn to follow the flow of the forum and perhaps spend a while educating yourself on what people here know and mean when they ask a question before going off on a tangent about what you think they would mean if their question was posted in National Geographic.


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