# difference in puppy development (KNPV vs Sch)



## Matt McGuire

Since we have some members of the forum who train in various sports, I thought it would be interesting to discuss how you start your pups. I understand that for Schutzhund development begins with chasing a rag to develop prey drive, does this differ from KNPV where most dogs work in a more defensive mode? I usually start molding obedience positions from a very early age, does this differ in sports like KNPV where more focus is on perfecting a deep bite?
Looking forward to your responses. 
Matt


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## Kyle Sprag

what exercise in the KNPV program is Defense orientated?


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## Matt McGuire

Kyle Sprag said:


> what exercise in the KNPV program is Defense orientated?


Gaurd the object and throwing the objects on the dog while biting.


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## Matt McGuire

Kyle Sprag said:


> what exercise in the KNPV program is Defense orientated?


Also, you may have misunderstood me, I didn't say that the excersizes were defensive. What I said was that most KNPV dogs, not all work in defensive drive. It was my understanding that many trainer of the KNPV wanted their dogs to work more in defense than prey. This again is "many" not all. It is my experience (which may not be much) that KNPV dogs are more dominant and more defensive than Schutzhund dogs. Not nessecarily because of the excersizes but from the realistic training that many KNPV trainers do aside the PH1 and PH2 excersizes. 
I am just curious how they raise their puppy's, in comparison to how Schutzhund puppies are raised. 

Matt


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## Christopher Jones

Matt McGuire said:


> Also, you may have misunderstood me, I didn't say that the excersizes were defensive. What I said was that most KNPV dogs, not all work in defensive drive. It was my understanding that many trainer of the KNPV wanted their dogs to work more in defense than prey. This again is "many" not all. It is my experience (which may not be much) that KNPV dogs are more dominant and more defensive than Schutzhund dogs. Not nessecarily because of the excersizes but from the realistic training that many KNPV trainers do aside the PH1 and PH2 excersizes.
> I am just curious how they raise their puppy's, in comparison to how Schutzhund puppies are raised.
> 
> Matt


Thats just so far off the money. All KNPV people I know think defence and aggression are dirty words. They talk drive, dominance and fight.
There is your comments that you think that KNPV is more defensive than IPO and then you have alot of other people like Frawley say that all KNPV dogs are trained in prey.
I think that alot of people just havent seen enough KNPV work or dogs to understand them.
They train their dogs in drive. Call it prey, call it fight, but these dogs love to bite. 
But the KNPV guys I know deff raise their dogs differently than the IPO people. Having been able to see it for myself I understand why they do what they do.
I remember there was a question on a different forum where a lady said "We just cant understand it. We buy two crazy extreme malis for the KNPV, we breed them and the pups come out normal, not crazy like their parents."
I think the answer to that question is easy to understand.


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## Chip Blasiole

So Christopher, share the differences you have observed in how KNPV trainers lay the foundation in bitework compared to a typical IPO/schutzhund approach.


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## Chad Byerly

Gerben recently wrote this thread








*testing a litter*


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## Christopher Jones

Chip Blasiole said:


> So Christopher, share the differences you have observed in how KNPV trainers lay the foundation in bitework compared to a typical IPO/schutzhund approach.


The easiest way to say it is that the Dutch spend alot more time promoting drive in their dogs compared to IPO guys. Im not saying that IPO trainers dont promote drive, however the Dutch promote more. 
They build alot drive through frustration. Alot of KNPV imprinting is about getting their dogs "crazy" while alot of IPO is about keeping their dogs "calm"


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## James Degale

Christopher Jones said:


> The easiest way to say it is that the Dutch spend alot more time promoting drive in their dogs compared to IPO guys. Im not saying that IPO trainers dont promote drive, however the Dutch promote more.
> They build alot drive through frustration.


?? How many IPO dogs have you titled ??!! Sounds like a IPO is inferior type attitude  Both sports test different aspects of bitework, so a direct comparison cannot be made.

Of course in IPO we train through building drive and fustration. The obedience in IPO is more demanding, precise and longer duration. A dog that is not trained through drive will not last the duration of trial. 

The time on suit in KNPV is longer so fight is better evaluated. Quality of bite is not emphasized as much, a dog can shift marginally and not lose points, not the case in IPO. Biting a hard sleeve is more demanding, especially with the helper trying to swing the dog away, than a suit so strength and power of bite is important for high points. KNPV trains a dog to push into bite and take the fight into helper, IPO teaches almost exclusively to pull away on the sleeve. Both sports have very little defense, a lot of training is done in prey. KNPV as you say requires more fight from the dog so i can agree KNPV does encourage a dog to go more "crazy" in the protection phase. But in my opinion control and drive building go hand in hand with pups, and many people neglect the former and make it up with strong corrections later. Not my style.


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## Christopher Jones

James Degale said:


> ?? How many IPO dogs have you titled ??!! Sounds like a IPO is inferior type attitude  Both sports test different aspects of bitework, so a direct comparison cannot be made.


How many KNPV dogs have you titled? None, yet you comment on it. I think I might have done as much in IPO as you have. 
And this might be news to you but IPO is nothing compared to KNPV in bitework. You know all those piss weak show GSD's and Dobies and Rotti in Europe that are IPO3? Well they couldnt pass KNPV if they tried, yet amazingly get V and SG ratings in part C.....
Dude if you honestly think that IPO protection work even remotley compares to KNPV then this conversation should really stop here. 



James Degale said:


> Of course in IPO we train through building drive and fustration. The obedience in IPO is more demanding, precise and longer duration. A dog that is not trained through drive will not last the duration of trial.


There are hundreds of LOW DRIVE dogs that get their CD and CDX through the kennel clubs every year. So sorry, you could absolutly get a dog through part B with low drive. Infact as I said above, all those crap low drive show dogs in Europe all get their IPO3 and pass the B part.
But yes, IPO obedience is far more technical than KNPV. However, while IPO dogs retrieve their dumbell over a jump or a-frame the KNPV dogs are retrieving their object from the middle of a river....



James Degale said:


> Biting a hard sleeve is more demanding, especially with the helper trying to swing the dog away, than a suit so strength and power of bite is important for high points.


What? You serious? You honestly think that biting a hard arm and getting swung around by the decoy is anywhere near as hard a test as a dog hitting a bitesuit in the upper arm and getting jammed into the decoy while been hit across the head, back ears (what ever place they end up hitting) with a stick and getting screamed at?
Again, explain to me why all those useless show dogs in Europe can manage the courage test in IPO yet wouldnt have a chance in hell of going through the KNPV courage test?

You may say that I sound like a "IPO is inferior" type of attitude, but you sound to me like you are wearing rose coloured glasses for IPO.


Now to insert some smilies
:lol: :-\"   :-D ;-)  :lol: O :grin:


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## Jeff Oehlsen

**** smilies, anyone that thinks that biting a sleeve shaped perfectly to fit in the dogs mouth is tougher than biting a suit is goofy.

I cannot even begin to tell you how ****ing weak Sch IPO is.

Have you ever even watched KNPV or SCH ?????? That would be about the only way I could think that you could say the shit you just said. Here is your official smilie from now on. ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,)


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## Gillian Schuler

I'm not going to argue about the difference between IPO and KNPV because I have only read about KNPV and watched a few videos.

However, Christopher, give me details of all the low drive showline dogs in Europe that have got their IPO3. They don't need it to breed from and the show line dogs are so against working their dogs that I can't believe there are many.

As for "screaming" at a dog when it is biting. This is surely one of the lowest threats a dog can get when it is on the suit. In fact It could raise it's drive just like hitting it could.

I can't prove it, but I have heard that some show line dogs got their Kör or IPO 1 / SchH 1 (minimum working requirements to breed from) whilst still in the kennel. 

I don't know why you keep talking about show line dogs on a working dog forum. There are maybe some members who have them, why not. At least they don't try to convert us to showing our dogs.

I only know IPO / SchH. Mondio I know only from watching it at a dog centre where I worked. René Sagarra gave the courses and I could have joined - but decided to stick to IPO. I like it but I would have definitely have been interested in KNPV. As it is, I can only listen to what others say about it and form an opinion.

Don't think that all IPO GSDs are only good for that. Go and visit some trainings and then form an opinion.


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## Matt McGuire

WOW, I just want to add this did not go like I thought that it would when I started this thread. Lets assume that everyone has their own opinion about what KNPV, IPO or Sch is to them. There will always be a difference of opinion, until someone posts who trains their respected sport/ reality (im not getting into that one either) day in and day out and brings forth their opinion. Even in the KNPV, every trainer is different. 

Instead of writing about what your friends or people you know do with their pups, how do you start your pups? I have always been a firm believer that no one style of training rains supreme, they all have their faults one way or another. As there would be only one way to train, if there was only one paramount technique. This is what makes us all so diverse and what makes training a new experience every dog we work with. 

If you train IPO, great. How do you imprint your pups? 
If you train KNPV, super. How do you get them to bite so deep? 
Mondio, BR.....the list goes on. 
The forum is here to discuss our techniques and the training that we enjoy, not to assume that one way is right or wrong. 

Matt 
I’m off my soapbox let the criticisms commence.=D>


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## Gillian Schuler

Matt, I agree but then I'm not biased.

I would bring up a pup (from 7-8 weeks) to be able to face the unknown, to bite where and how he wants to. To have fun playing with me, etc. etc. etc. After this, and only after this I would decide which sport or venue is good for him. This way, imo you can't go wrong.

Out of pups that have no nerve issues, are willing to bite, are not afraid of the environments, are alert and interested, come the police and sport dogs. Depends on the individual's strengths as to where he lands.


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## Ian Forbes

Gillian Schuler said:


> However, Christopher, give me details of all the low drive showline dogs in Europe that have got their IPO3. They don't need it to breed from and the show line dogs are so against working their dogs that I can't believe there are many.


Gillian,

I guess you're out of touch with the GSD show scene (nothing wrong with that!). Pretty much all of the males have Sch3 (see this link and click on the individual dogs http://www.schaeferhunden.eu/winsis_x/winsisshowevent.php?id=BSZS2008). 

The scores and the way these titles are achieved is another matter....:-\"


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## Gillian Schuler

Oops! I made a bloomer and it isn't the first and won't be the last¨

On the other hand, these are dogs I've never seen or heard of, apart from the working lines , i.e Wannaer Höhen, etc. And, apart from these, which of them have been competed in the BSP. None!!! (Rückzieher - maybe none!!!)

As this is a Working Dog Forum, I honestly think it is pointless and unfair in mentioning them. Why compare the KNPV and Mondio dogs to the showlines of the GSD.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

QUOTE: WOW, I just want to add this did not go like I thought that it would when I started this thread.

When you are face to face with a person, you can see that they are not getting what you are asking, so you change the way that you say it.

This is very common, as body language and the look on a persons face is a huge part of our communication.

From everything I can see and read about KNPV, they have a system of doing things, and have training and training aids to not allow mistakes. Look at the video of Endor, they want the dog to go behind the decoy, and so they put a screen up to keep him from making a mistake. There are two lines on the dog, again, to keep him from making a mistake.

Unlike this country, where a club full of experienced people is not common, I have a feeling that any handler in KNPV could grab randomly two people to help him, and they would be pretty much on the same page.

Mondio in this country does not have a system like this yet, for an example. I get people interested in the sport, but they are looking for the training PLAN. LOL We will get there, but not for a few years.

KNPV dogs look spun up to me, but with the really really clear training they get of "this gets you a reward, and this gets you punishment" they get nice control over these dogs.

Meanwhile, (LOL) back in the states, we are doing positive only, and playing with clickers, and generally moving forward. I am one of these, I did not use punishment soon enough with my dog, and it shows. It is all part of the learning curve to me, and making mistakes with training is part of how I learn.

I think this is why Dick looks at us like a bunch of nutters. :-D :-D :-D


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## Gillian Schuler

It's not only KNPV that believe in not allowing the dogs to make mistakes.

I was (unfortunatley) at one time the opinion that to allow the dog to make a mistake was good because then you could correct him.

I learnt afterwards in protection, to not allow the dog to mâke a mistake. This was SchH but really doesn't matter what sport it is in my mind.


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## James Degale

Clearly some people on this forum think that sticking on a suit means they become experts in KNPV, just ridiculous. Some others just write drivel (Jeff) but can we expect any better from the village i*iot. 

My posts are written from the point of practical experience. The information is there for people who want some knowledge. 

IMO if I wanted to really test a dog's bite I'd stick on a hard sleeve. I can make most mediocre dogs look good using a suit. 

I don't want to get into a KNPV vs SCH sport thing as I think such discussions are pointless. I merely have highlighted the main differences in bite work philosophy.


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## Christopher Jones

Gillian Schuler said:


> Oops! I made a bloomer and it isn't the first and won't be the last¨
> 
> On the other hand, these are dogs I've never seen or heard of, apart from the working lines , i.e Wannaer Höhen, etc. And, apart from these, which of them have been competed in the BSP. None!!! (Rückzieher - maybe none!!!)
> 
> As this is a Working Dog Forum, I honestly think it is pointless and unfair in mentioning them. Why compare the KNPV and Mondio dogs to the showlines of the GSD.


Umm, its a very simple logic. If a gene pool of lower quality dogs (aka Show dogs), with lower drives and character (aka Show dogs), can compete at a particular sport (aka IPO/SchH) and pass with good scores, yet these same gene pool of lower quality dogs (aka Show dogs) would not be capable of passing KNPV because they wouldnt be driven enough or strong enough, then its pretty safe to say that you need a stronger dog, with greater drive to pass KNPV than IPO. If anyone thinks otherwise than they have never seen what is required in the KNPV, and its a waste of time even talking about it.


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## Chip Blasiole

I'm not sure, but I think that one of the differences in puppy development in KNPV vs. schutzhund, is that with schutzhund, it is more common for the puppies, often starting as young as eight weeks old, to be worked by the helper, such as the helper working a rag tied to a whip. Then things progress to a rag off a whip, to a tug, bite wedge, and then to the sleeve. The schutzhund pups get a lot of exposure to the helper from a very early age and learn to see the helper as someone he is playing a game of tug with. Obviously, the game gets more stressful as the dog matures, and the dog's genetics will be a factor, but a foundation is laid where the dog sees the helper as someone who rewards the dog playing a prey game. My understanding is that in KNPV, the handler might lay a foundation by building drive and strikes with a rag and do a little grip work to see if the dog has the basics for the work, but there is not the extended play/prey work with young pups, and serious bitework doesn't start until the dog has some maturity, say at around 9-10 months of age, so that the dog sees the helper in a different, more serious light. Again, genetics are a main factor, but the dog hasn't been playing tug with the helper since he was eight weeks old. I have also heard that older German schutzhund trainers waited until the dog had some maturity until bitework started so that the training could tap into some of the dog's aggression. Things might have changed as higher prey was selected for and schutzhund became more of a business in the US, where the folks getting paid for seminars have more of a market when puppies are started very young.


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## Christopher Jones

Chip Blasiole said:


> I'm not sure, but I think that one of the differences in puppy development in KNPV vs. schutzhund, is that with schutzhund, it is more common for the puppies, often starting as young as eight weeks old, to be worked by the helper, such as the helper working a rag tied to a whip. Then things progress to a rag off a whip, to a tug, bite wedge, and then to the sleeve. The schutzhund pups get a lot of exposure to the helper from a very early age and learn to see the helper as someone he is playing a game of tug with. Obviously, the game gets more stressful as the dog matures, and the dog's genetics will be a factor, but a foundation is laid where the dog sees the helper as someone who rewards the dog playing a prey game. My understanding is that in KNPV, the handler might lay a foundation by building drive and strikes with a rag and do a little grip work to see if the dog has the basics for the work, but there is not the extended play/prey work with young pups, and serious bitework doesn't start until the dog has some maturity, say at around 9-10 months of age, so that the dog sees the helper in a different, more serious light. Again, genetics are a main factor, but the dog hasn't been playing tug with the helper since he was eight weeks old. I have also heard that older German schutzhund trainers waited until the dog had some maturity until bitework started so that the training could tap into some of the dog's aggression. Things might have changed as higher prey was selected for and schutzhund became more of a business in the US, where the folks getting paid for seminars have more of a market when puppies are started very young.


That was an interesting look at it. I think that the Dutch do more work with their pups without the decoy. The owners deff get them crazy for objects like car keys, as picking up the keys when the decoy drops them is a part of the routine. 
They also do things like chaining their pups from a young age around the field to watch the training. Most IPO pups are either with the owner or in the car. The Dutch will say that leaving the pups around the ground makes them more confident and promotes drive. IPO people leave their dogs in the car until its their turn to work. They do this because they "Dont want their dogs to bark themself out" before its their turn. KNPV people will say that leaving their dogs tied up helps build drive and stamina. And they are correct. I have seen young dogs tied out barking for a couple of hours and still come out like demons when its their turn to bite. 
Another thing we learnt early is that IPO people always finish with the dog taking the sleeve or tug back to the car as a reward. In the KNPV only the weaker dogs would get that. The KNPV dogs are taken off the bite and aggitated, and then pulled kicking and screaming from the field. So with the IPO dogs you are getting the dogs leaving the field in low drive and taught the car is the place to go to and then the KNPV dogs are taught it all happens on the field and they need to get as much enjoyment as they can with the limited time the decoy is on the ground and taken off the field in high drive. This absolutley builds drive through frustration and having seen it done both ways (IPO and KNPV) the KNPV way increases drive. Theres alot more but I think people are going to have to see the differences for themselfs.


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## Matt McGuire

I think that when it comes to starting puppies on biting, there is one main difference aside from tying the pups out or not. is with the bite development. While in Sch the bite is imprinted to be calm and the reward is being able to have the sleeve or rag, but in KNPV trainers push the back of the pups head to coerce a deeper bite. Once the pup is old enough to work on a soft sleeve or bite suit then the reward comes from fighting the man and not "ownership" of the sleeve or rag. 
This may be one of the fine points, as to why KNPV dogs slam into the decoy during the protection phase.


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## Christopher Jones

Matt McGuire said:


> I think that when it comes to starting puppies on biting, there is one main difference aside from tying the pups out or not. is with the bite development. While in Sch the bite is imprinted to be calm and the reward is being able to have the sleeve or rag, but in KNPV trainers push the back of the pups head to coerce a deeper bite. Once the pup is old enough to work on a soft sleeve or bite suit then the reward comes from fighting the man and not "ownership" of the sleeve or rag.
> This may be one of the fine points, as to why KNPV dogs slam into the decoy during the protection phase.


Agreed.


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## Anna Kasho

Matt McGuire said:


> ...in KNPV trainers push the back of the pups head to coerce a deeper bite. Once the pup is old enough to work on a soft sleeve or bite suit then the reward comes from fighting the man and not "ownership" of the sleeve or rag.


Two questions. I can't quite picture how the trainer would push the pup's head to coerce a deeper bite (have not seen it in the few knpv puppy videos I've watched) - I am left wondering why this doesn't trigger the pup's opposition reflex and make him push backwards away from the bite? And #2, the reward coming from the fight with the man, is that selected in breeding or trained or both? If it's genetic, it helps explain the difference in behavior with my mals and my GSD's...


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Some others just write drivel (Jeff) but can we expect any better from the village i*iot. 

How many times do you need to be spanked in one thread ??? LOL The village idiot has a Phd. How many titles do YOU have ??? AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Let me guess, PP trainer ???


Quote: Of course in IPO we train through building drive and fustration. The obedience in IPO is more demanding, precise and longer duration. A dog that is not trained through drive will not last the duration of trial. 

You are out there for like three minutes. Maybe that is a really long time for you, but the rest of us are not impressed. The funny thing, I trained a bunch of dogs without tugs and all that and it's not like the OB I am seeing today is just OH SO much better. Funny, they made it all three minutes and were not tired at all. Maybe the village idiot is just the better trainer.

Quote: IMO if I wanted to really test a dog's bite I'd stick on a hard sleeve. 

And what the **** does that prove ?? How is it different from a dog biting a suit ??? And what part of the concept of a sleeve being shaped to fit in the dogs mouth do you not understand ??? Do you regularly train with dogs that are flying off the sleeve ??? 


Quote: I can make most mediocre dogs look good using a suit

Really ??? Prove it. Show me how you make a mediocre dog look good on a suit PP trainer. You gonna point a gun at it ??? LOL

Tooo easy.


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## kamphuis gerben

i dont think theres much difference in puppy developing 
knpv versus schutzhund 
also building up a dog to bite full hard and calm i dont see much difference 
i use many technicks i saw ,worked ,trained togetther 
from ipo,belgiumring,knpv,mondialring schutzhundgermany 
for example i start biting rag or leather rag than puppysleeve ipo 
than youngdog sleeve,wait when pup is teething than after teething i start rag ,pyppysleeve iposleeve 
and than whem iam eally satisfied by the way hes biting i start working at a french suit 
and than later the knpv suit 
i want my dogs always bite full calm and whith power 
i think theres a very big difference on how people train if it is in knpv or schutzhund 
i was many times in finland whith mecbergerkennels ,jan and mia skogster 
i think they are very good ipo trainers many say the best but i saw many simularities in their way of training,inprintingpups and they loved the type of dogs iam loving too
i think everyone prepares their pup for the program he has in mind to work the dog in 
so i think everybody does it their way 
for me it works super combining many different things because i dont want my dogs to be just a good knpv dog 
but a very complete dog who can work proper on a sleeve ,does good knpvwork 
and is next to that a strong dog who works on every place not just on the field 
to get all this its neccecary to expose a dog to everything you can 
in positive ways 
greetings gerben


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## mike suttle

This is a question that I had to ask myself recently (what is the differrence in puppy development between KNPV and SchH)
I have always been very interested and impressed with the KNPV program. (enough so that I just hired a KNPV trainer to work with me here full time)
I have set myself a goal to raise a puppy born here at my kennel and with the help of Ron (my new trainer) and Gerben (my hero:-D ) I plan to bring the puppy up and train him for KNPV, and travel to Holland in a couple years to trial the dog for a PH1 certificate.
I do not consider my self to be a great trainer, but I take pride in the success I have had in imprinting puppies and preparing them for working jobs in many different arenas.
Now almost all of my puppy imprinting is done the same way, no matter if my pups will be working in SchH, PSA, Police Service,Ring sport, Search and rescue, or high stress detection work like US Customs.
I try to bring them up to be very social, very environmentally sound, and I teach all of my pups to have a full calm grip on the sleeve and the suit. As they get older we work them in muzzle as well, but the key to our program is providing social dogs that are capable of virtually every task. 
After giving it a lot of thought and talking to experts in each training discipline, I have decided to stick with my own method of puppy imprinting with this pup that we will hopefully be able to certify in KNPV at one point.
Just like with any other pup we bring up here, he will start with bio sensor work at day 3, move onto to noise and environmental exposure at around day 14, then we will begin to build drive and frustration and introduces him to puppy mazes and obsticals at about day 21 for his food. At about 6 weeks he will be back tied with the other pups to watch us work the older dogs. I build drive for all objects at a very early age (jerry can, metal keys, pvc, iron pipe, rag, young puppy sleeve, wooden box, etc) as he grows he will work on young dog sleeves and schH trial sleeves until he fully understands how to bite properly, he will learn to target different areas of the soft suit and then when he is ready he will work on the KNPV suit, just as Gerben said.
The scent work will be imprinted just like I do in SchH (footsteps for food) to the article
I hired a guy who knows the entire program inside and out (20 years as a KNPV decoy) He said the way I bring up my puppies is more than enough to prepare them for the KNPV, now we only need to train them for each excersize (sounds easy enough, right )........ We will see some day I guess.


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## R Janssen

Anna Kasho said:


> Two questions. I can't quite picture how the trainer would push the pup's head to coerce a deeper bite (have not seen it in the few knpv puppy videos I've watched) - I am left wondering why this doesn't trigger the pup's opposition reflex and make him push backwards away from the bite?


I think you refer to two different methods :

You take the pup behind the head for targeting the bite on the suite. 
(so when he bite's its not to high or to low on the arm or leg.)

When the dog is on the suite, you tease the dog by going around his neck with your hands,
most dogs don't like that, and (when they don't have a full bite) will naturally push in deeper.


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## Mike charatin

So sad we have come to this point.Working bite work regardless of what example you are going to show him in should be about balance. You will never reach a dogs full potential unless you balance the dogs drives. The fact is the dogs that work knpv or mondio are more balanced in the bite work than lets say your schutzhund or ipo prey monsters.


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## Matt McGuire

Anna Kasho said:


> Two questions. I can't quite picture how the trainer would push the pup's head to coerce a deeper bite (have not seen it in the few knpv puppy videos I've watched) - I am left wondering why this doesn't trigger the pup's opposition reflex and make him push backwards away from the bite? And #2, the reward coming from the fight with the man, is that selected in breeding or trained or both? If it's genetic, it helps explain the difference in behavior with my mals and my GSD's...


Ann, 
They do a combination of pushing both the dogs head and instead of stroking the dog from head to tail they start from the back and stoke towards the head. Im not sure of the methodology behind the reflex action, but it seems to work. KNPV dogs have some of the deepest bites around. I would like to get some input from Belgian Ring trainers on this as well, as they too have very deep bites. 
Here is a video I found on YouTube and although it is not a pup it shows the method that I was refering to. Video of pups working are few and far between, I have seen them and i will continue to look for a good one. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrQ2PC5AqoM&feature=channel

Refering to your second question I do believe that both genetics and training lend to the fight drive in the KNPV dogs (second opinions are welcomed). Firstly, as one poster put it they do make them "crazy" for the bite, through frustration. I suppose that this frustration really lends to the fight drive, but also many KNPV dogs are very dominant and I think to some degree they like feeling like they can overpower a human. 
A good example of KNPV dogs loving to fight would be the many who score low on the PH1 for not outing. These dogs may be over the top with fight drive, or may like disobeying their handlers. I have seen many KNPV dogs withstand all corrections except choking them off the bite and a few that have passed out from this still holding the suit in their mouths.


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## Christopher Jones

Heres some video of a young Dutchie pup being worked on the full suit at maybe 10-12 weeks of age. As you can see its a very nice pup.
I do know that alot of times people in the KNPV will try to get the pup a couple of times on the suit before they change their teeth.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1P5-eq_8Xo&feature=channel


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## Gerry Grimwood

I love it, the way those guys handled that pup was just perfect in my opinion.

A very nice pup, having fun and being built up instead of being degraded by some clown.


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## Kyle Sprag

Christopher Jones said:


> Heres some video of a young Dutchie pup being worked on the full suit at maybe 10-12 weeks of age. As you can see its a very nice pup.
> I do know that alot of times people in the KNPV will try to get the pup a couple of times on the suit before they change their teeth.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1P5-eq_8Xo&feature=channel


That looks like NICE work!


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## Brigita Brinac

Matt McGuire said:


> Since we have some members of the forum who train in various sports, I thought it would be interesting to discuss how you start your pups. I understand that for Schutzhund development begins with chasing a rag to develop prey drive, does this differ from KNPV where most dogs work in a more defensive mode? I usually start molding obedience positions from a very early age, does this differ in sports like KNPV where more focus is on perfecting a deep bite?
> Looking forward to your responses.
> Matt


Actually KNPV pups begin w/a rag as well. The defense is a multi factorial thing IMO...much has to do with the raising/handling of the pup/young dog. They are NOT into motivational training whatsoever. Their training/handling is HARD and either the dog survives it or it's gone....hence the defense. The OB doesn't come until later....drive, prey/chasing, picking up different object starts as early as 6 wks...

KNPV's goal is NOT to focus on a deep bite....they encourage it through training/environment....but either way it just doesn't matter...they strive for police type service dogs and there are no points deducted if a dog has a shallow bite. They TRAIN for a deep bite....BUT they *don't* BREED for it.

IMO, if a deep bite is important then you go to those who breed for it...BR lines.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

How could I totally miss this topic???](*,) 

First of all: a good dog is a good dog, no matter in what discipline it is trained.

Difference in training is imo best told by Chip.
I can only agree with Gerben that you have to look "out of your own box".

Furthermore I can only refer to our breedingprogram and our way of training:
@ Brigitta we DO breed on a deep bite (=genetics).

We use play rag/tug with a young puppy, sometimes "free" without a leash, sometimes on a stake out or on a leash. 
On the stake out and leash we use the tension of the leash to encourage to bite deeper in to the puppysleeve or rag. You have leash on tension and dog bites sleeve, some tension on th e sleeve to. Puppy doesn't want to loose sleeve and is willing to bite even deeper not to loose it. At that point you will let some tension go, puppy bites deeper and is rewarded by voice. 

We don't use hands etc. for a deeper push like Rene described, it is a method but not ours.

Serious training does not start before about 9 mo- 1 yr.


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## R Janssen

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> We don't use hands etc. for a deeper push like Rene described, it is a method but not ours.


When i remember this topic right someone stated that you needed to push the dogs head forward into the bite with your hands,
(to improve the bite) better explain the right way of using that particular method then giving people stupid idea's. :?

Luckily we had the luxury with our last 3 dogs, that they only wanting to bite with there back teeth. 
I hear those van Leeuwen dogs have that same luxury problem. :mrgreen:


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## Dale Pitts

I am brand new to the forum, but not new to working dogs, I just have to say I am very dissapointed with this particular thread and the attitudes from a few of the posters here, the OP simply asked a question to gain further knowledge and many others here took this is an invitation to bash other working dog sports etc, I would personally think that we are all here on a working dog forum to learn and share knowledge and that to put down any other persons chosen sport and/or dog/dogs is simply rude and immature, I for one train IPO, I know that during training the dogs are hit with a stick and are screamed at, this is similar to what one poster said is different in KNPV, but the fact of the matter is in my opinion, it doesnt matter what sport they are trained in IPO or KNPV or agility or anything else, they are trained working dogs and we are all here to learn and help others learn, and we should take that into consideration before we decide to turn a thread created to ask a question and learn, into a my sport is better than your sport and my dogs are better than your dogs bashing war.
If I offend anyone in this post I apologize as it is not my intention, I just wanted to say what I felt when I read this thread.
I think we all should work a little more on helping each other, not bashing each other.

Thanks.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

rene_limburg said:


> I hear those van Leeuwen dogs have that same luxury problem. :mrgreen:


:mrgreen: that's breeding with a plan :wink:

they do it naturally, but the way of biting is always a point of attention in training, we train a lot on it. Even after the certificate ;-)


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Christopher Jones said:


> Heres some video of a young Dutchie pup being worked on the full suit at maybe 10-12 weeks of age. As you can see its a very nice pup.
> I do know that alot of times people in the KNPV will try to get the pup a couple of times on the suit before they change their teeth.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1P5-eq_8Xo&feature=channel


 
And he bites his own owner :wink: the vid states Klaas Evers is the owner and he's the one in the suit, handler is Andre Luijken (yes- brother of Rob, who owns Tommy).


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## Amy Swaby

Christopher Jones said:


> Heres some video of a young Dutchie pup being worked on the full suit at maybe 10-12 weeks of age. As you can see its a very nice pup.
> I do know that alot of times people in the KNPV will try to get the pup a couple of times on the suit before they change their teeth.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1P5-eq_8Xo&feature=channel


oh god i had to mute it, what was with that music, it burns usssss


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## Christopher Jones

Brigita Brinac said:


> KNPV's goal is NOT to focus on a deep bite....they encourage it through training/environment....but either way it just doesn't matter...they strive for police type service dogs and there are no points deducted if a dog has a shallow bite. They TRAIN for a deep bite....BUT they *don't* BREED for it.
> 
> IMO, if a deep bite is important then you go to those who breed for it...BR lines.


Well thats true and then its not true. While the KNPV doesnt judge grip for points I can guarentee you that the KNPV people do care about grips on their dogs. Everyone of them that I have spoken to always aims for the best grips and they judge potential studs by their grip also. Alot of the grip issues seen in KNPV is due to the high levels of fight in the dogs with complusion used for the outs. 
Alot of KNPV dogs have good genetic grips from birth, just like BR or IPO do.
Heres a video of my male KNPV lined Dutch Shepherd at about 12 weeks of age. I challange you to show me a better natural, hard full grip than this in a 12 week old pup. Infact Bert Kikkert commented that if he had a dog like this for IPO he could get 100 pts in protection, as grips are the biggest nautral lose of points for a dog. This grip is genetics not training.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zn723iL_3rQ


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## Christopher Jones

Brigita Brinac said:


> Actually KNPV pups begin w/a rag as well. The defense is a multi factorial thing IMO...much has to do with the raising/handling of the pup/young dog. They are NOT into motivational training whatsoever. Their training/handling is HARD and either the dog survives it or it's gone....hence the defense. The OB doesn't come until later....drive, prey/chasing, picking up different object starts as early as 6 wks.


Alot of the KNPV people do use the "Build them up, break them down" methord for sure, and this does give them lower levels of OB at a young age. The training is hard, and many weaker dogs get washed out, but this is a good thing as it has brought a higher level of handler hardness into their breeding. I like handler hardness :grin: 
When people start talking "defence" and "prey" with KNPV dogs they miss out on alot of what is motivating the dogs. I did an interview with Gerben Kamphuis for an Australian forum and he did comment about this.

Basically he said that one one hand you have people saying that most KNPV dogs are trained in prey/play only (aka Ed Frawley) and then when Police officers in the USA get their KNPV dogs and see that they bite for real and arnt working in prey/play then they assume they have been trained in defence in the KNPV. 
I do not hear KNPV people talk "Prey and Defence" like IPO people do for instance, they talk about the dogs desire to bite people anywhere any time and for real. 
I personally think that too many people in IPO and NVBK look down on the KNPV people as the redheaded stepchild of dog sports. Wether its Bernhard Flinks saying in seminars that "The KNPV has good dogs but shit trainers" or a well known NVBK ecollar guru saying to the KNPV crowd at their national that he could "Train a rabbit to the KNPV nationals", there seems to be a real ignorance about the KNPV and what its about. 
Meanwhile the KNPV continues to breed and train more real police and working dogs than all the other sports.


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## Brigita Brinac

Christopher Jones said:


> Well thats true and then its not true. While the KNPV doesnt judge grip for points I can guarentee you that the KNPV people do care about grips on their dogs. Everyone of them that I have spoken to always aims for the best grips and they judge potential studs by their grip also. Alot of the grip issues seen in KNPV is due to the high levels of fight in the dogs with complusion used for the outs.
> Alot of KNPV dogs have good genetic grips from birth, just like BR or IPO do.
> Heres a video of my male KNPV lined Dutch Shepherd at about 12 weeks of age. I challange you to show me a better natural, hard full grip than this in a 12 week old pup. Infact Bert Kikkert commented that if he had a dog like this for IPO he could get 100 pts in protection, as grips are the biggest nautral lose of points for a dog. This grip is genetics not training.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zn723iL_3rQ


My point was that IF a program doesn't take (point wise) the quality of the grip into account...then why would people breed for it?? KNPV people care about the 'fight'...the 'hard bites'....if it's 1/2 a mouth or a full mouth...that's secondary. I WAS in Holland...several times and trained with them in KNPV and yes they talked about their 'bites...but not whether they are deep/full...but how HARD they were....

I would never put KNPV pups (as far as a genetically deep bite) on the same level as those in NVBK or IPO. In the latter programs it's a necessity as it matters in the points (so those breeders BREED for this trait)...I have acquaintances in BR where the highest title isn't even obtainable unless a dog has a full bite. In KNPV (as opposed to NVBK Cat. I)...one can have a super hard biting dog but without a full grip and they can still obtain their PH.

You know I also had 'experts' like Ellis and Flinks (who BTW hates Mals) tell me that I have a National or a World's quality dog...that he has traits that one just can't train for...totally genetic...and he is BR and FR bred....At 19 mos he got 98 in protection....problem is that nobody can catch this dog...he broke a helper's arm on the courage test....But I would expect him to be like this; as his genetics are full of hard full biting BR and FR dogs.

My point is that KNPV breeders do not place a FULL grip on top of their list. Hard fighting grip...YES!--but not a full driving forward grip.


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## Brigita Brinac

Christopher Jones said:


> Alot of the KNPV people do use the "Build them up, break them down" methord for sure, and this does give them lower levels of OB at a young age.
> 
> *****Perhaps that they don't believe in any motivational training would have something to do with this...??*
> 
> The training is hard, and many weaker dogs get washed out, but this is a good thing as it has brought a higher level of handler hardness into their breeding.
> 
> ****I disagree...many GOOD dogs with great potential are also washed out. Their goal is to train and sell and start over....BTW seen many KNPV dogs go through brutality and one comes to mind...wouldn't 'out'....a billy club was taken to him and blood spewed from his nose....then he decided a year later to take out his owner....he was sold and sold and sold again....Was he a good dog? Yes! Shit training? Yes! Shit handling...yes! So they do lose a lot of good dogs in the process.
> *
> I like handler hardness :grin:
> 
> ****Do You??...well the last time I was in Holland; my dog took his KNPV handler out just for 'yelling at him' and off to the Emerg. we went...sliced his arm to the bone from the elbow to the wrist...Couldn't even lift a coffee mug for 3 wks nor drive as the swelling was so bad you couldn't see his fingers....*
> 
> When people start talking "defence" and "prey" with KNPV dogs they miss out on alot of what is motivating the dogs. I did an interview with Gerben Kamphuis for an Australian forum and he did comment about this.
> 
> I do not hear KNPV people talk "Prey and Defense" like IPO people do for instance, they talk about the dogs desire to bite people anywhere any time and for real.
> 
> ****Actually, you won't hear FR or BR people in Europe talk about prey vs. defense either...But for the sake of having a 'universal language to aid in communication'; it became necessary years ago to have a common 'language' in order to facilitate training....*
> 
> I personally think that too many people in IPO and NVBK look down on the KNPV people as the redheaded stepchild of dog sports.
> 
> ****Well...first of all...KNPV is NOT a sport and any KNPV person will tell you this...their goal is police dogs.*
> 
> Wether its Bernhard Flinks saying in seminars that "The KNPV has good dogs but shit trainers"
> 
> *****I'm not a fan of Flinks...but I would say that KNPV training is very archaic (not unlike Koehler) and far behind the sport training techniques....I've done both...there isn't any comparison.*
> 
> or a well known NVBK ecollar guru saying to the KNPV crowd at their national that he could "Train a rabbit to the KNPV nationals", there seems to be a real ignorance about the KNPV and what its about.
> 
> ****I know who you're talking about...it's not about ignorance...the fact is that this trainer puts a lot of weight on TECHNIQUE and FOUNDATION and GENETICS...KNPV is not about technique.*
> 
> Meanwhile the KNPV continues to breed and train more real police and working dogs than all the other sports.
> 
> ****I have to agree and disagree...The KNPV is about police dogs...not sport or any other program....BUT, I also know countless people/police who bought KNPV titled dogs that couldn't even walk on slippery floors or do stairs....or were so handler aggressive that the K9 handler had to give them up...kind of defeats the purpose of a police dogs doesn't it??*


----------



## Ellen Piepers

Brigita Brinac said:


> My point was that IF a program doesn't take (point wise) the quality of the grip into account...then why would people breed for it?? KNPV people care about the 'fight'...the 'hard bites'....if it's 1/2 a mouth or a full mouth...that's secondary. I WAS in Holland...several times and trained with them in KNPV and yes they talked about their 'bites...but not whether they are deep/full...but how HARD they were....
> 
> I would never put KNPV pups (as far as a genetically deep bite) on the same level as those in NVBK or IPO. In the latter programs it's a necessity as it matters in the points (so those breeders BREED for this trait)...I have acquaintances in BR where the highest title isn't even obtainable unless a dog has a full bite. In KNPV (as opposed to NVBK Cat. I)...one can have a super hard biting dog but without a full grip and they can still obtain their PH.


Yes they can obtain their PH1. That doesn't mean that they don't care. On the contrary, I do see this preference for full, forward grips in the people around me. Although we could have a long discussion here about the training styles that can be observed in KNPV that I don't want to go into now, there is also something called pride. And I can't imagine a KNPV-handler that would feel the same pride for bitework where the dog holds the decoy with only two teeth as when the dog has a beautiful firm grip. They don't only look at the scores, but also at the style. I've also heard people wishing that the scoring system would be adapted so the grip itself gets evaulated too.

And there is also a practical reason why people do prefer a forward grip, and that is the effect on the decoy. It's hard enough to get good decoys and helpers, and you don't want them to be mangled by savagely pulling ponies.


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## Gerry Grimwood

****Do You??...well the last time I was in Holland; my dog took his KNPV handler out just for 'yelling at him' and off to the Emerg. we went...sliced his arm to the bone from the elbow to the wrist...Couldn't even lift a coffee mug for 3 wks nor drive as the swelling was so bad you couldn't see his fingers....*


*That doesn't really sound like the result of a full grip, actually it sounds like BS, elbow to wrist sliced to the bone ???*


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## Christopher Jones

Brigita Brinac said:


> My point was that IF a program doesn't take (point wise) the quality of the grip into account...then why would people breed for it?? KNPV people care about the 'fight'...the 'hard bites'....if it's 1/2 a mouth or a full mouth...that's secondary. I WAS in Holland...several times and trained with them in KNPV and yes they talked about their 'bites...but not whether they are deep/full...but how HARD they were....


Why would KNPV people care about grip? Because everyone else does. When all the people come looking for dogs and they say they want full good grips you dont think the KNPV people will cater for what people want? A KNPV guy at our club told us that the German brokers and Police always came to Holland to buy dogs and they then started testing the dogs by throwing metal pipes around and they wanted the dogs to retrieve it. This guy was laughing that a couple of months later at every KNPV club you would see the people throwing Iron pipes around for their dogs to retrieve. My friends in Holland care very much about grip and when they are talking to me about a new good dog they have bought or seen grip is one of the first things they mention. Maybe we just havent been speaking to the same people in Holland.



Brigita Brinac said:


> I would never put KNPV pups (as far as a genetically deep bite) on the same level as those in NVBK or IPO. In the latter programs it's a necessity as it matters in the points (so those breeders BREED for this trait).


You see Im just not seeing this. We have Malis and Dutchies from the KNPV and we have Malis from world class IPO lines. We DO NOT see any better genetic grip from the KNPV to the IPO dogs. None, nadda. 
I can give you hundreds of photos of KNPV dogs with super grips, but heres just one. A Dutch Shepherd female who was bought off someone who had her as a pet. No bitework training at all, pure green bitch. Shes bought by Gerben on this list and taken out to the club and worked. Heres some pics from her first time on an IPO sleeve.



Now Im just not sure how she can possibly fit anymore of the sleeve in her mouth. Im not sure which IPO or NVBK dog has a better grip than this. Again, this is her genetics, not training. 




Brigita Brinac said:


> as his genetics are full of hard full biting BR and FR dogs.


Now you are quick to dismiss the KNPV dogs genetic grips because the KNPV dont judge grip, yet you mention how your dog's genes are full of hard full biting FR dogs? The French Ring dogs have the worst grips to the eye and grip is also not judged or called for in FR. 
But having said that, I do not judge the FR dogs on their grips just as I dont judge the KNPV dogs on their grips. I train for NVBK and there is a massive difference in how the arms and legs are presented to the dogs in NVBK than they are in FR. The decoys in NVBK present both arm and leg in an easy to bite manner, while the FR decoys try to make the dogs miss, hence the crap bites. You see in NVBK where you are being so judgemental of the grip you have to be fair to all the dogs, hence they always get given nice targets, just like IPO. In the KNPV they also have the issues of teaching high bites and the result these have in open grips on one side of the mouth. Theres so many factors which effect the grips in the FR and KNPV dogs, more so than genetics.


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## Christopher Jones

Brigita Brinac said:


> *****Perhaps that they don't believe in any motivational training would have something to do with this...??*


Depends what you mean by motivational? The dogs want nothing more than to bite, and the bite is given as a reward. Thats motivational. I see in the NVBK top line trainers when teaching their dogs to find and bark the dog is actually barking to the decoy for his tug, and its given to him by the decoy in a suit. This never happens in the KNPV, the dog when guarding the decoy in the forrest is always rewarded by a bite on the decoy. But I guess thats the difference, one's police dog training, the others sport. Ones barking to the decoy for his toy, the other is truely guarding.



Brigita Brinac said:


> ****I disagree...many GOOD dogs with great potential are also washed out. Their goal is to train and sell and start over....BTW seen many KNPV dogs go through brutality and one comes to mind...wouldn't 'out'....a billy club was taken to him and blood spewed from his nose....then he decided a year later to take out his owner....he was sold and sold and sold again....Was he a good dog? Yes! Shit training? Yes! Shit handling...yes! So they do lose a lot of good dogs in the process.*


You said it right, their goal is to train and sell, not train, ruin and get bitten. Bit hard to make money that way.
In regards to the whole billy club thing, im sure there are bad guys in the KNPV, just as there are in all forms of life. 



Brigita Brinac said:


> *****I'm not a fan of Flinks...but I would say that KNPV training is very archaic (not unlike Koehler) and far behind the sport training techniques....I've done both...there isn't any comparison."*


Sure on the whole I would agree that the NVBK and IPO guys are more techinical than the KNPV guys, but dont be fooled by the whole "IPO is all lovely and motivational" thing. Their OB might be more happy, waggy tail than the KNPV but if the top IPO guys have a tough dog who doesnt want to out your not going to see too much difference between how its done.
I love the NVBK, the FR and KNPV. Im not a big fan of IPO but I respect the people who train and title in it. 



Brigita Brinac said:


> ****I know who you're talking about...it's not about ignorance...the fact is that this trainer puts a lot of weight on TECHNIQUE and FOUNDATION and GENETICS...KNPV is not about technique.*


Its about poor form, and ignorance. This guy has never titled a KNPV dog, and to go out and try and belittle the people who get to the Dutch KNPV Nationals is a bit pathetic. Its a bit harder to get to the Nationals in an organisation that has 900 dogs trialed v's maybe 60-100 dogs trialed against you. 
I want to see him and his rabbit go for it....


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## Ellen Piepers

Christopher Jones said:


> Depends what you mean by motivational? The dogs want nothing more than to bite, and the bite is given as a reward. Thats motivational. I see in the NVBK top line trainers when teaching their dogs to find and bark the dog is actually barking to the decoy for his tug, and its given to him by the decoy in a suit. This never happens in the KNPV, the dog when guarding the decoy in the forrest is always rewarded by a bite on the decoy. But I guess thats the difference, one's police dog training, the others sport. Ones barking to the decoy for his toy, the other is truely guarding.


I very much agree with you Christopher. What I can see, both in the pup we've got and in the adults, is that biting in itself is the reward. They are different types of dogs, my bitch being more handler-sensitive, the other one less than her. But when they bite, they bite and don't need anything else to be rewarded with. 

I'm doing KNPV Zoekhonden with my dog now and we only started using the ball as a reward for finding the victim to make it clear to her that there was no need to guard the victim as a she would with the decoy. The same for searching for bigger objects; she felt the need to guardthem and would not abandon it without me picking her up, instead of calling her off the object. When she is barking at either the object or the victim, you can see that simply that act of barking with all her force is a reward in itself. As one "victim" said, she starts "radiating" when she gets at the victim. So I don't need the ball to make her search anything. I need it to get her away from it.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Ellen Piepers said:


> I've also heard people wishing that the scoring system would be adapted so the grip itself gets evaulated too.


Yup, Dick and I did a plea (sp?) on the Dutch KNPV forum about 2 yrs ago for judging the grip to, just like WvV and AA. I think it is still on there, and not lost in a forum breakdown, if you search on my name.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

[email protected] If you're talking grips, look at our site. www.vanleeuwen-hollandseherders.nl or several pics we placed on this board. 

If you are that often in Holland, I invite you to come along to our (KNPV) trainingfield with your "killer dog".

Have you ever let your dog bite on the leather/jute bite suit. Do you know WHY in KNPV we use that kind of suit?

To bite on that suit make the dog have a "choice" how to bite, so you can realy SEE if the dog was trained properly in his bite or how his genethics are. (so also when its NOT good!!)

The kind of suit used (leather/jute) is the closest to the kind of clothing people wear "in the streets". So also then, the dog must know how to push and bite forward and realy damage the suspect in his bite, instead of just making damage to the clothing. Here in Holland the use of a policedog comes just under the fire-arm, so is a heavy weapon to use in the street. If fysical force. a batton or pepperspray don't work, (or can't be used) the policedog comes in. He should make the difference then, so NO just pulling cloth, but make real damage to take out the suspect!!!

I alo wonder..... :-o 
I see a lot of (negative) reactions about KNPV and the Dutch way of training policedogs of people who have been here in Holland once or twice (or not at all....) and don't know sh*t what they are talking about.[-X 

At first I was not going to react, but reeding so much BS about the KNPV program I could not resist..... 

regards,
Dick


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## Xavier Neme

I have to say I have only been to Holland a few times, and I have visited several clubs. I think the KNPV program is misunderstood by most people that are into dogs and dog sports and dog training. Maybe the reason why is the fact that everything that has to do with KNPV is so different from the way things are done in the rest of the world. First of all, they do not bother about pedigrees and registration. That in itself is a thing most people could not even begin to imagine, yet the Dutch know very well what kind of dog each line produces and how the combinations work or don't work, for that matter. 
Also, like some people mentioned before, the point is to sell the dog when he is certified and then start again with another one. That single objective takes the KNPV away from any sport status. It is a certification, not a sport. Yet, most of the trainers there want to train and certify the best police dog they can with each dog they train. And there is nothing fancy about KNPV, it's just the club, the handlers and the dogs. I think that is great, because they don´t worry about their new vests for training or anything like that. It is kept very elemental and the focus is never lost from the quality of performance looked for in the dog, and it's also never lost from the quality of the dog itself.
There is no doubt there are really really good dogs in the KNPV breeding program. Of course, there are bad dogs also, like in any other dog discipline. But I also think that one reason the dogs are so good is that they have been bred for the Dutch type of handling for generations. They are super hard, but not very often handler agressive (except for some lines); and they are kept social, but their desire to bite is so strong that they can bite anytime, anywhere, anyone... no doubt, and this goes along with the quality of the FULL push bite that I have seen in almost all of them. The dog has no other choice but to bite when he is told to do so, and since they already want to bite, there is no problem with this. If it is indeed true that they do not breed for the full bite, I guess they do breed for the whole package, which indirectly includes the full bite. All in all, I think the dogs that are produced in the KNPV are my kind of dogs, for sure.


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## Ellen Piepers

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Yup, Dick and I did a plea (sp?) on the Dutch KNPV forum about 2 yrs ago for judging the grip to, just like WvV and AA. I think it is still on there, and not lost in a forum breakdown, if you search on my name.


 Actually, I've heard it being suggested by people who never frequent any forums too....... ;-)


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Ellen Piepers said:


> Actually, I've heard it being suggested by people who never frequent any forums too....... ;-)


In an interview in H&S it was also mentioned :wink: I hope the HB will add it to the program one day!


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## Christopher Jones

Xavier Neme said:


> I have to say I have only been to Holland a few times, and I have visited several clubs. I think the KNPV program is misunderstood by most people that are into dogs and dog sports and dog training. Maybe the reason why is the fact that everything that has to do with KNPV is so different from the way things are done in the rest of the world. First of all, they do not bother about pedigrees and registration. That in itself is a thing most people could not even begin to imagine, yet the Dutch know very well what kind of dog each line produces and how the combinations work or don't work, for that matter.
> Also, like some people mentioned before, the point is to sell the dog when he is certified and then start again with another one. That single objective takes the KNPV away from any sport status. It is a certification, not a sport. Yet, most of the trainers there want to train and certify the best police dog they can with each dog they train. And there is nothing fancy about KNPV, it's just the club, the handlers and the dogs. I think that is great, because they don´t worry about their new vests for training or anything like that. It is kept very elemental and the focus is never lost from the quality of performance looked for in the dog, and it's also never lost from the quality of the dog itself.
> There is no doubt there are really really good dogs in the KNPV breeding program. Of course, there are bad dogs also, like in any other dog discipline. But I also think that one reason the dogs are so good is that they have been bred for the Dutch type of handling for generations. They are super hard, but not very often handler agressive (except for some lines); and they are kept social, but their desire to bite is so strong that they can bite anytime, anywhere, anyone... no doubt, and this goes along with the quality of the FULL push bite that I have seen in almost all of them. The dog has no other choice but to bite when he is told to do so, and since they already want to bite, there is no problem with this. If it is indeed true that they do not breed for the full bite, I guess they do breed for the whole package, which indirectly includes the full bite. All in all, I think the dogs that are produced in the KNPV are my kind of dogs, for sure.


Thats very well said, and is alot of the reason I like the KNPV. I find the KNPV a little more pure, and a little more honest in some ways. It is what it is. Very rarely if ever do you see KNPV trainers professing to be the world best, or making out their training is anything other than what it is. If they are training their dogs to guard the decoy, that is what their dogs are doing. Every trial is as hard as the next. There is no real difference between the level in the National to the club trials that happen every year. IPO and SchH has a MASSIVE difference between the midnight trials the show dogs do and the BSP in terms of decoy hardness and judging.
Thats not to say that IPO or NVBK are fake, far from it.


----------



## Brigita Brinac

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> [email protected] If you're talking grips, look at our site. www.vanleeuwen-hollandseherders.nl or several pics we placed on this board.
> 
> If you are that often in Holland, I invite you to come along to our (KNPV) trainingfield with your "killer dog".
> 
> ****Wow...I think you missed the boat on that one....but thank you nevertheless for the invitation....just because I've had/have dogs that broke someone's arm or took someone's back out or sent someone to the hospital....doesn't make them 'killer dogs'. I think you're barking up the wrong tree 'chico'.*
> 
> Have you ever let your dog bite on the leather/jute bite suit. Do you know WHY in KNPV we use that kind of suit?
> 
> ****Yes I have! Actually took a little FR bitch to be bred there when in full blown season....and she took out their decoy....and I had to buy a round of beer because of the bruising the decoy sustained from a little old FR dog! Even though they wanted her to do an attack at 80 meters....I knew my dog and I was firm at only doing 30 meters....My dogs will bite any material....it doesn't matter if it's jute, french linen, bare skin....they're not selective...and actually they get off on the suitwork more than the sleeve....Oh and the dog that I had in Holland to do a PH (BR bred and FCI registered)...not only sent his handler to the hospital...but also ripped off his jeans on the day of the trial (BTW, the judge was very impressed by this dog's strength as he witnessed this 'attack'), and shortly after; knocked out (yeah cold knocked out) his club decoy on the stick attack....He was the first dog at training that session....well training was over for all the club dogs that evening....after that he became the last dog to train every session.....So may I ask: WHAT WAS YOUR POINT???
> *
> To bite on that suit make the dog have a "choice" how to bite, so you can realy SEE if the dog was trained properly in his bite or how his genethics are. (so also when its NOT good!!)
> 
> ****FR isn't that much different (in the philosophy I mean)....the goal is to exploit and make the dog lose points and to demonstrate weakness in either the training or genetics or both....EVERY dog is worked differently though---it's the ONLY way to test a dog objectively...as every dog has different training and genetics....There is no pattern training...maybe you should take a look at MR or FR or BR 'guard of an object' and compare?* * Or the exercises where programs are using more than one decoy during a guard of an object or defense of handler??
> *
> The kind of suit used (leather/jute) is the closest to the kind of clothing people wear "in the streets". So also then,
> *
> ***Not here...people wear Armani and Prada *
> 
> the dog must know how to push and bite forward and realy damage the suspect in his bite, instead of just making damage to the clothing.
> 
> ****Actually every club I've been to in Holland will encourage a deep bite via training ie., hands around the dog's head and gently pushing him into the bite.....Why not just start with one that does it genetically??....and if a deep bite is so important in KNPV....then why doesn't the marking/scoring reflect this at the trials?
> *
> Here in Holland the use of a policedog comes just under the fire-arm, so is a heavy weapon to use in the street. If fysical force. a batton or pepperspray don't work, (or can't be used) the policedog comes in. He should make the difference then, so NO just pulling cloth, but make real damage to take out the suspect!!!
> 
> ****Again...we live in different worlds...don't tar every country with the same brush....In Detroit, LA, Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal, your 'police dog' would have his a** shot before he even left the cruiser. Not to mention our laws are different; as are our needs....Holland is not a 'model' for the rest of this planet. You have to start thinking outside your country (the proverbial BOX) before you can make some of these statements. Our streets are riddled with crack heads, gangs, gun violence etc...And unfortunately in NA....the criminals seem to have more rights than the victims....So it's all relative isn't it?*
> 
> I alo wonder..... :-o
> I see a lot of (negative) reactions about KNPV and the Dutch way of training policedogs of people who have been here in Holland once or twice (or not at all....) and don't know sh*t what they are talking about.[-X
> 
> ****Wow are you judgmental and I thought the Dutch were the most open minded culture! lol Surprise I'm actually from Europe...born and raised there....so the once or twice thingy is your assumption....Also been to France and Belgium and studied and trained the different programs....May I ask what programs you have trained in or are even versed in theoretically outside of KNPV (it's a BIG world out there ya know)? And you know what...I HAVE seen good KNPV trainers and I've seen a whole sh*tload of crappy KNPV trainers....and watching blood spew from a dog's nose because he wouldn't 'out'....I guess that's justifiable since it's KNPV and some of us don't know sh*t....Time to take off your blinders and realize that there is NO perfect program....That there are good trainers and BAD trainers in every program! That there are strengths and weaknesses in every program! But until you are versed and educated in the various disciplines....KNPV does NOT set the standard...nor is it the be all or end all...It's simply a choice made by individuals...same as FR, MR, BR, IPO, etc....
> *
> At first I was not going to react, but reeding so much BS about the KNPV program I could not resist.....
> 
> ****Well one has to be able to be open minded enough to admit that there are good things and bad things in every program....Has nothing to do with patriotism....If it had to do with the latter...the Dutch wouldn't have run from the Bosnian war...But that's another topic probaly better left for another forum. *:-#
> 
> regards,
> 
> ****Same to you*
> 
> 
> Dick


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen

Brigita (or wathever your name is, I already forgot...)@ with your reaction you just confirm what I already wrote....

Also your quote of the" Bosnian war" says enough about you as a person....

dick


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Brigita (or wathever your name is, I already forgot...)@ with your reaction you just confirm what I already wrote....
> 
> Also your quote of the" Bosnian war" says enough about you as a person....
> 
> dick


DITTO

When arguments run out, some people resort to insult, probably a sign of insecurity.

Xaver Neme, really enjoyed your post. Don't see why it's so difficult to understand. I don't do KNPV but it doesn't mean you can't inform yourselves about it. As for breeding, a few breeds were ruined by joining the FCI. I have pedigree dogs but if every breeder bred seriously, there wouldn't be a necessity for pedigrees, probably.


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## Brigita Brinac

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Brigita (or wathever your name is, I already forgot...)@ with your reaction you just confirm what I already wrote....
> 
> Also your quote of the" Bosnian war" says enough about you as a person....
> 
> dick



***You too!


----------



## Brigita Brinac

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Brigita (or wathever your name is, I already forgot...)@ with your reaction you just confirm what I already wrote....
> 
> Also your quote of the" Bosnian war" says enough about you as a person....
> 
> dick



***You too! 

***Yes you're right...I'm a person who CARES about genocide and those who were sent in to protect and ran away....and you know...why don't you explain your point of view to the victims of this genocide...I could probably get you in touch with a few (wow didn't even mention that Canada kept you guys from starving during WWII)--sorry just being really cynical here...But like I said this best left for another forum...so let's leave it alone.


....I think you missed the point here....On a more serious note: Just because one is Dutch or Belgian or French...doesn't make their program the 'be all and end all'. Open minds can see that there are strong and weak aspects in every program....Why is it so difficult for you to admit this???? IOW...it has NOTHING to do with patriotism.


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## Ellen Piepers

Brigita Brinac said:


> ***You too!
> 
> ***Yes you're right...I'm a person who CARES about genocide and those who were sent in to protect and ran away....and you know...why don't you explain your point of view to the victims of this genocide...I could probably get you in touch with a few (wow didn't even mention that Canada kept you guys from starving during WWII)--sorry just being really cynical here...But like I said this best left for another forum...so let's leave it alone.


If you want to make a point than it might be more effective if you don't go around trying to insult people with these kind of political and personal disasters that probably nobody on this forum has had a personal say in, nor the majority of the people you're accusing of running away for that matter. IMHO it doesn't do any good to the discussion that was going on.


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## Ellen Piepers

Brigita Brinac said:


> On a more serious note: Just because one is Dutch or Belgian or French...doesn't make their program the 'be all and end all'. Open minds can see that there are strong and weak aspects in every program....Why is it so difficult for you to admit this???? IOW...it has NOTHING to do with patriotism.


Just because somebody doesn't agree with your personal opinion on the ins and outs of KNPV doesn't necessarily mean that that person isn't open-minded.


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## Christopher Jones

Brigita Brinac said:


> ***You too!
> 
> ***Yes you're right...I'm a person who CARES about genocide and those who were sent in to protect and ran away....and you know...why don't you explain your point of view to the victims of this genocide...I could probably get you in touch with a few (wow didn't even mention that Canada kept you guys from starving during WWII)--sorry just being really cynical here...But like I said this best left for another forum...so let's leave it alone.
> 
> 
> ....I think you missed the point here....On a more serious note: Just because one is Dutch or Belgian or French...doesn't make their program the 'be all and end all'. Open minds can see that there are strong and weak aspects in every program....Why is it so difficult for you to admit this???? IOW...it has NOTHING to do with patriotism.


WTF has that got to do with dogs? WTF did Dick and Selena have to do with what some Dutch troops did? WTF has that to do with the KNPV? And for your information, the Dutch were in Srebrenica because the Canadian government pulled their troops out and were going to leave the place without any troops at all. 

You seem to come across as someone with a kennel full of French and Belgium bloodline dogs who seems to just not be able to handle someone talking good things about dogs and bloodlines you have nothing to do with.
Either you are jealous about not having KNPV dogs or you have a litter for sale of French and Belgium lined dogs maybe? :wink:
Nowhere have I seen Dick or Selena say that the French Ring or NVBK were not the equal of KNPV. It was only you comming on talking down the genetics of the KNPV dogs, the training ablilities of the KNPV people and talking up how tough your dogs were that made them defend their program. 
Nuff said.


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## R Janssen

@Brigita, Can you please stop that nonsense.??? 

Just post a vid of YOUR TRAINED dog, 
and when that is not possible, just post that KNPV trail date and the handlers name.
Can't be that hard can it.?

I already looked at your website, http://www.fd-malinois.com/
but only can find some IPO stuff...

And yes you will impress us all when you have a FCI dog with that kind of performance...


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## Brigita Brinac

Ellen Piepers said:


> If you want to make a point than it might be more effective if you don't go around trying to insult people with these kind of political and personal disasters that probably nobody on this forum has had a personal say in, nor the majority of the people you're accusing of running away for that matter. IMHO it doesn't do any good to the discussion that was going on.


***Actually if you re-read Dick's previous post....I think you'll see that the insults started there...all because I didn't agree and because I shared my observations of what I had also seen...all of a sudden 'we don't know sh*t'....and just because my dogs have done some damage (which was really unfortunate:-() to someone...now my dogs are labeled 'killer dogs'...I don't know seems like the insults stared spewing a while ago...A forum is supposed to be a place to share information--I didn't realize we all had to agree.


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## Brigita Brinac

Christopher Jones said:


> WTF has that got to do with dogs? WTF did Dick and Selena have to do with what some Dutch troops did? WTF has that to do with the KNPV? And for your information, the Dutch were in Srebrenica because the Canadian government pulled their troops out and were going to leave the place without any troops at all.
> 
> You seem to come across as someone with a kennel full of French and Belgium bloodline dogs who seems to just not be able to handle someone talking good things about dogs and bloodlines you have nothing to do with.
> Either you are jealous about not having KNPV dogs or you have a litter for sale of French and Belgium lined dogs maybe? :wink:
> Nowhere have I seen Dick or Selena say that the French Ring or NVBK were not the equal of KNPV. It was only you comming on talking down the genetics of the KNPV dogs, the training ablilities of the KNPV people and talking up how tough your dogs were that made them defend their program.
> Nuff said.


Hey Christopher...I guess the info we receive regarding world topics was/is different...so regardless back to the various disciplines...

Dick wasn't just talking about how great his dogs or lines were...read his last couple posts and you'll see that because I shared something I observed...the insults and attacks started...BTW had a KNPV dog...and like I said saw good knpv trainers and bad ones...saw good dogs and bad ones---but that could be said about ANY program....all of a sudden I was told I didn't know 'sh*t' and my dogs labeled killer dogs....was there any reason for this? Seems like he didn't agree or want to...whatever the case may be and started hurling insults...so maybe he was the insecure one? Don't know...just the other side of the coin I guess. Where did I talk down the genetics of KNPV dogs? Can you show me this. I made a comment that breeding for a full bite was not the top priority otherwise the trials/scoring would reflect this....How is this coming down on their genetics????If Dick or whomever breeds genetically for this trait...AWESOME!! I'd like to see this as a trait and a priority in ALL breeding programs.

BTW I didn't say my dogs were 'tough' in any of my posts--please don't twist things...Dick just assumed that I trained a couple times...My point was that BR lined dogs and FR lined dogs can also do KNPV---how is that a criticism? Between insults; he also assumed mine have never bitten jute...wrong assumption...And what you thought was 'bragging about tough dogs' can't be further from the truth...when a decoy/helper/handlers get hurt...they suffer, the clubs suffer, the training suffers.  This is a disadvantage NOT a plus! I think you'll see that in my posts....many times I mention that there are good and bad in every program...how is that coming down on 'their' program?? Since when did they take ownership of KNPV? What it was was the fact that he denied the 'bad' and anyone who dare say anything but good things about knpv...as he put it 'didn't know sh*t. 

Sadly all my pups are sold Christopher  

I think you need to re-read this thread and you'll see chronologically what things were said and when...

Thanks for your input!


----------



## Brigita Brinac

rene_limburg said:


> @Brigita, Can you please stop that nonsense.???
> 
> Just post a vid of YOUR TRAINED dog,
> and when that is not possible, just post that KNPV trail date and the handlers name.
> Can't be that hard can it.?
> 
> I already looked at your website, http://www.fd-malinois.com/
> but only can find some IPO stuff...
> 
> And yes you will impress us all when you have a FCI dog with that kind of performance...


Hi Rene...Then you didn't look well enough...There are dogs training in KNPV, FR, BR, and IPO....and there are videos of dogs...Unless things have changed (so correct me if I'm wrong here) but trialling in kNPV in NA is a no-no...not authorized. We can train...but not trial. Any other suggestions?


----------



## R Janssen

@Brigita, sadly i couldn't find any videos of your dog earlier today, can you post some direct links to them.? 
A video say's a thousand words. 

But you triggered my curiosity, at witch club/town did you train over here? 
About the trails you are correct. 

BTW, every self respecting KNPV breeder breeds for a genetic full bite, 
a good grip is very important in the KNPV for a lot of reasons.


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## Barrie Kirkland

Hmm shame about the crap spoiling the thread

I am interested to learn more about the techniques used for the crushing bite & the 
The references re the clothing

I am due a new PSD and would like to work these techniques. The knpv program to me provides exactly what is required of a street dog

Ta. B


----------



## Brigita Brinac

rene_limburg said:


> @Brigita, sadly i couldn't find any videos of your dog earlier today, can you post some direct links to them.?
> 
> There's a couple videos under 'Qain' at 19 mos.
> 
> http://www.fd-malinois.com/nedji_album/nedjiflee.jpg
> http://www.fd-malinois.com/nedji_album/nedjigrd.jpg
> http://www.fd-malinois.com/nedji_album/nedjiobj.jpg
> 
> A video say's a thousand words.
> 
> ****I agree but again that's subjective as everyone has a favorite program....So if they don't like IPO then they will usually find something wrong with it...same goes for any program.
> *
> But you triggered my curiosity, at witch club/town did you train over here?
> 
> ****Can't remember lol nevermind spell it! Sorry but I'll think about it and see if I find it on a map in the region where I was. Also visited about 5-6 clubs when I was there....and attended the Championship. There's so many clubs in every region...you guys are very fortunate as are the French, Belgians, and the European countries that do IPO.
> *
> About the trails you are correct.
> 
> ****Thank you for updating me. I didn't think that this part changed (although I wasn't 100% sure) even though there's many who love and train in NA in this program...but just haven't seen any official clubs here and certainly no trials.
> *
> BTW, every self respecting KNPV breeder breeds for a genetic full bite,
> a good grip is very important in the KNPV for a lot of reasons.
> 
> ****yes and so it can be said for every working/protection based program. I completely agree....one needs the genetics and the environment.* *BTW I had a GREAT time training with the Dutch and learning about knpv and its philosophy. They sure know how to have fun and I am pleased to say that I've maintained friendships with several since my time there!*


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## Brigita Brinac

Barrie Kirkland said:


> I am interested to learn more about the techniques used for the crushing bite....
> ...I am due a new PSD and would like to work these techniques. The knpv program to me provides exactly what is required of a street dog...
> 
> Ta. B


***That's awesome! Maybe we need to start another thread on various training techniques which promote a 'crushing bite' ?


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## Barrie Kirkland

Are taking the piss ???

Just looking for experienced knpv trainers advice. I was intrigued by the descriptions of the techniques re promotion of proper grip of the bodypart not the clothing


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## Gerry Grimwood

Can we trade this one for Emilio


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## Brigita Brinac

actually I think this could be a very informative thread. Look forward to reading about the various techniques.


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## Gerry Grimwood

Brigita Brinac said:


> actually I think this could be a very informative thread. Look forward to reading about the various techniques.


I'm sure you've done them all before and excelled in all.

I may be the only one but I've heard enough of you blowing your own horn, you've been everywhere and have shown many people how it's done, after all you are the expert in countries all over the world..your dogs have gained praise and admiration from international judges and have broken arms, knocked people out cold and even opened them up from wrist to elbow....to the bone no less.

You were calling down KNPV training and someone finally had enough of your BS and replied, now you try to blame them for starting it...typical.

You're right about people having their own preference when it comes to dogs and what they train for, I would rather have Dick or Selena tell me to go shit in my hat than to hear anything you have to say about anything.


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## Brigita Brinac

You know there really is no need to bastardize a thread. Someone sincerely is asking for input. 

Furthermore, IF you had read my post I was simply looking forward to *reading* about various methods regardless of program. And if there is a post by me...simply ignore it or press the delete button in your mail inbox. You have options just as I do.

hmmm....Where did I call down KNPV training? I personally loved training it....You must be thinking about someone else. And the hat thing...well that's your option.

Have a nice day.


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## Gerry Grimwood

Brigita Brinac said:


> You know there really is no need to bastardize a thread.


Oh nice one Brigita, you are such a little trooper.

You enjoyed training KNPV, but you can't remember where it was in Holland you trained or the names of the people you trained with, even after you made such an impact there.

Must be starting to smell funny where you're standing right now.


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## Brigita Brinac

Guess you didn't see the pic links above huh? I remember very well whom (individuals) I trained with but unless I have their permission to post their names on the Internet...I just won't do it. Simply out of respect for them and their right to privacy. Hope that helps explain things a bit better. 

I think several people are getting annoyed and have asked to return to training discussions...So that's where I'm going. :idea: All the Best.


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## Timothy Stacy

Good dogs are good dogs and sports are sports and training is training!!! If a dog bites and is a "good dog" with the proper prey,fight,and defensive drives it can do any [email protected]#*#@ sport as long as it has the agility for certain ring sports(whole different topic). It's a matter of training it where and when to bite.

It's my understanding the object guard is a totally separate title in KNPV so not all KNPV titled dogs do the Object guard. Furthermore a lot of the KNPV object guards are not very impressive when I see them on video,especially when compared to Modioring OG or even FR. The KNPV looks like nothing but signals. Example,here I come and I'm bending down for the bite,ok you bit I'm backing up and when I stop you let go and return to the object. The Mondioring object guard is way more impressive. It's my understanding that a real object guard is when a dog is guarding raw food which is hidden under the box (in training). This promotes hackles up teeth showing and a primal like picture which most people wouldn't like to see in most sports and could possible be mistaken for a nervy dog. In reality some dogs ccould never do a real guard so you see watered down versions that look more like a "ROUTINE" rather than the dog truly guarding the object.

The KNPV gun shot bite while walking away, it's a prey bite. The courage test in KNPV is not mch different to a GOOD Schutzhund courage test except the dog is targeted to the armpit. French ring has there similiar versions of both. It's not rocket science and it's no more real than any other sport "when other sports are trained properly".

As far as the bloodlines are concerned well I see some KNPV dogs here in the states that have false pedigrees and their real pedigrees go back to NVBK dogs like Wolf Dupae. That goes for Dutch shepherd with this same NVBK Malinois in it. So if KNPV has the magic poission why are they looking to Belgian bred NVBK dogs. Answer, they see something they like in that specific dog. There are plenty of KNPV dogs out there with French lines to. One of the most notable being Elgos. Can't be sure of Elgos orgins though but they seem French. One video in praticlar that stands out with French dogs is the Danny Maison video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbD3qzMcJxA 
Are these dogs not real enough?

I do understand the different temperments that different lines bring to the table, and often you'll see the French breed back to Belgian dogs to restablish size and aggression. Some times these make the best creations. It all comes down to the DOG!!!

By the way I like KNPV and I'm thinking of going to the Nationals in September. I think it's September!
So all you that like to take quotes I'm sure I left plenty above for you to quote and take out of context. I won't respond since there are a 100 ways to look at it! I'll be training!

One more thing. I think NASCAR is much more real compared to Indy car racing


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: One more thing. I think NASCAR is much more real compared to Indy car racing

Nice.

Quote: So all you that like to take quotes I'm sure I left plenty above for you to quote and take out of context. I won't respond since there are a 100 ways to look at it! I'll be training!

Nice.

Quote: As far as the bloodlines are concerned well I see some KNPV dogs here in the states that have false pedigrees and their real pedigrees go back to NVBK dogs like Wolf Dupae.

Nice.


----------



## Brigita Brinac

What a great post! It's interesting to see another person's ideas and opinions. I think every program can lay claim as to why it's 'better' than the rest--age old debate...But whatever sandbox one plays in...in most cases is one of personal choice and attraction to that program and its dogs.

Loved the video BTW...yeah it's real enough. Thanks for posting! Here's another one that is pretty cool...tribute to different programs/decoys/training: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKf3Vh

Some really athletic and nice dogs...not to mention some great decoy work...I believe there's a guard of an object in one of these two...if I find a good one of a MR or BR Guard and maybe Defense of Handler...I'll post it as I thiink they are pretty complex. Have to appreciate these dogs and the training that goes into it...Especially when you throw environmental stuff into it.

Enjoy! 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkqfZYp_TVM

http://www.workingdogforum.com/www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzQe-LtBGS4http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzQe-LtBGS4


----------



## Christopher Jones

Timothy Stacy said:


> Good dogs are good dogs and sports are sports and training is training!!! If a dog bites and is a "good dog" with the proper prey,fight,and defensive drives it can do any [email protected]#*#@ sport as long as it has the agility for certain ring sports(whole different topic). It's a matter of training it where and when to bite.


Yep, although I would also add nerve to the list of traits. A good dog can compete for sure, but to win then you might need other physical attributes such as agility, speed etc depending on the sport, just as you stated above.



Timothy Stacy said:


> It's my understanding the object guard is a totally separate title in KNPV so not all KNPV titled dogs do the Object guard. .


There is object guarding in the PH1 and PH2 titles. Yes there is an Obj Guard title which is a little different to the PH1 title. Infact the Obj program has tracking like IPO in it.



Timothy Stacy said:


> Furthermore a lot of the KNPV object guards are not very impressive when I see them on video,especially when compared to Modioring OG or even FR. The KNPV looks like nothing but signals. Example,here I come and I'm bending down for the bite,ok you bit I'm backing up and when I stop you let go and return to the object. The Mondioring object guard is way more impressive. It's my understanding that a real object guard is when a dog is guarding raw food which is hidden under the box (in training). This promotes hackles up teeth showing and a primal like picture which most people wouldn't like to see in most sports and could possible be mistaken for a nervy dog. In reality some dogs ccould never do a real guard so you see watered down versions that look more like a "ROUTINE" rather than the dog truly guarding the object..


The KNPV Object guard is a routine, just like all of KNPV, and IPO are. That however hasnt stopped the Dutch dogs from being some of the most serious natural guarders out there. Guarding is a massive thing for the KNPV people.
I have never heard about food under boxes before, and theres lots of rubbish dogs that growl when people come near their bones that couldnt do a KNPV, FR or BR object guard if their lives depended on it.



Timothy Stacy said:


> The KNPV gun shot bite while walking away, it's a prey bite. The courage test in KNPV is not mch different to a GOOD Schutzhund courage test except the dog is targeted to the armpit. French ring has there similiar versions of both. It's not rocket science and it's no more real than any other sport "when other sports are trained properly".


It maybe a "prey bite" but most of these dogs arnt prey dogs. The courage test in KNPV is alot different to a IPO courage test. 
Your also wrong about KNPV not been any more "real" than IPO. KNPV is controlled by the police for the training of police dogs. If you dont think so, just go to Holand, take your best undercover sleeve and see if the dogs will take the bite you offer.



Timothy Stacy said:


> As far as the bloodlines are concerned well I see some KNPV dogs here in the states that have false pedigrees and their real pedigrees go back to NVBK dogs like Wolf Dupae. That goes for Dutch shepherd with this same NVBK Malinois in it. So if KNPV has the magic poission why are they looking to Belgian bred NVBK dogs. Answer, they see something they like in that specific dog. There are plenty of KNPV dogs out there with French lines to. One of the most notable being Elgos. Can't be sure of Elgos orgins though but they seem French. One video in praticlar that stands out with French dogs is the Danny Maison video


I can only gather you are refering to the FCI Malinois? There is no Dutchies in Holland or in the KNPV with Wolf in their blood that I am aware of. Maybe someone inthe USA crossed them but I have yet to see a Dutchie in Holland going back to Wolf. I would love to see one, as Wolf produced quite well so they would be good to check out. What details do you have for these dogs? And as far as the Unregistered Malis go, again, Im not too sure of many that go back to Wolf.
The pedgreed Malis in Holland may breed to Belgian lines, that I have seen plenty of, but very, very few KNPV people with Unregistered dogs go to the Belgian lines. I think you should have a look at http://www.bloedlijnen.nl/ and see what is been bred. You can search Wolf, and see how many offspring are there and how many are bred back to Dutchies or Unreg Malis.



Timothy Stacy said:


> I do understand the different temperments that different lines bring to the table, and often you'll see the French breed back to Belgian dogs to restablish size and aggression. Some times these make the best creations. It all comes down to the DOG!!!
> 
> By the way I like KNPV and I'm thinking of going to the Nationals in September. I think it's September!
> So all you that like to take quotes I'm sure I left plenty above for you to quote and take out of context. I won't respond since there are a 100 ways to look at it! I'll be training!
> 
> One more thing. I think NASCAR is much more real compared to Indy car racing


In the FCI Malis you do see alot of crossing between French and Belgian lines. The Unreg KNPV Malis (which represent the vast majority of KNPV dogs) rarely cross out to those lines. These dogs are alot different to the FCI dogs.
But you are right, its all down to the dog. The NVBK have some super dogs, the French Ring has some super dogs, the KNPV has super dogs, and there maybe even a couple of good ones in IPO :twisted: . You then have some differences between these good dogs, be it size, extreme prey, trainabilty, aggression, nerves etc, so you then pick the ones that suit your personality and handling style. Just because my dogs dont go back to Wolf, doesnt mean I dont appeciate what he produced. My dogs are all pretty large, but doesnt mean when I see some crazy fast French Mali turning on a dime to get a bite I dont go "Shit, thats cool".

I hope you dont think Ive taken your quotes out of context, that wasnt the aim.
And sorry, but F1 is better than both NASCAR and Indy


----------



## Brigita Brinac

Some cool stuff!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiXq1O3Z-wk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6_Ra7Qp8ws


----------



## Timothy Stacy

---"Quote"I can only gather you are refering to the FCI Malinois? There is no Dutchies in Holland or in the KNPV with Wolf in their blood that I am aware of. Maybe someone inthe USA crossed them but I have yet to see a Dutchie in Holland going back to Wolf. I would love to see one, as Wolf produced quite well so they would be good to check out. What details do you have for these dogs? And as far as the Unregistered Malis go, again, Im not too sure of many that go back to Wolf.
The pedgreed Malis in Holland may breed to Belgian lines, that I have seen plenty of, but very, very few KNPV people with Unregistered dogs go to the Belgian lines. I think you should have a look at http://www.bloedlijnen.nl/ and see what is been bred. You can search Wolf, and see how many offspring are there and how many are bred back to Dutchies or Unreg Malis.

Somebody had to go do it! I'm in a rain delay so...... Hence the false pedigree #-o. Maybe some people out there know what I'm talking about!!! You are wrong and there are people on this board with Dutchies that have this pedigree but I'm not calling anyone out.

----Quote- KNPV is controlled by the police for the training of police dogs. If you dont think so, just go to Holand, take your best undercover sleeve and see if the dogs will take the bite you offer.

Hum, I didn't know Dutch Police were the quality control inspectors for real dogs!No offense to Police but being an officer and having a dog doesn't make you a good dog trainer it makes you a K9 handler. Maybe we need a Olympic comittee. Just joking, maybe

----Quote-I have never heard about food under boxes before, and theres lots of rubbish dogs that growl when people come near their bones that couldnt do a KNPV, FR or BR object guard if their lives depended on it.

I haver heard of this and for the end of your quote I agree that's why I stated at the beggining "good dogs"

-----Quote- There is object guarding in the PH1 and PH2 titles. Yes there is an Obj Guard title which is a little different to the PH1 title. Infact the Obj program has tracking like IPO in it.

Thank you I did not know that but it's still a routine and does not compare to MR or BR.

-----By the way there are plenty of Schutzhund dogs that bite for real. Quick example out of 100's I'm sure other people have. A GSD II dog training for a III was in the blind barking. He anticipated the call out and looked back. The person in the blind who was doing a lot of ring work at the time decided to knee the dog in the shoulder. The dog bit him in the thigh pretty bad. The dog never had a leg bite in his life but he bit his ass regardless. Good civil dogs will bite with or without the sleeve. Every dog out there that bites a suit knows what the bite suit is. It's a piece of equipment!!!


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## Timothy Stacy

Chris tell me which dog is being worked harder on the courage test? 3 minutes and 45 seconds into this SCH video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUTnb_1-P9s 

or this KNPV video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lk-ZEL2w9hM 

just joking! Again it's not the sport it's the dog! They can be real Regardless of the sport they train in. Here is a good one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcaAPhThnBM



and please don't give me the spiel of these dogs are real there in defense as your first post on this thread states your opinion of the drive they are in!


----------



## Christopher Jones

Timothy Stacy said:


> Somebody had to go do it! I'm in a rain delay so...... Hence the false pedigree #-o. Maybe some people out there know what I'm talking about!!! You are wrong and there are people on this board with Dutchies that have this pedigree but I'm not calling anyone out.


Im not quite sure I am "wrong". You stated "I see some KNPV dogs here in the states that have false pedigrees and *their real pedigrees go back to NVBK dogs like Wolf Dupae. That goes for Dutch shepherd with this same NVBK Malinois in it.* " indicating that the Dutch KNPV breeders were taking their female Dutchies to Belgium to breed to Wolf. Im saying that I have never heard of one single Dutch Shepherd KNPV female been take to Wolf for breeding. And if you do a search of the Dutch pedigree database you dont come across any either. I also stated that it doesnt mean that someone somewhere else didnt do this cross. I actually would be interested to see how the cross worked out. You are going to need more than just one breeder doing an outcross to Wolf to show a pattern of KNPV guys going to the NVBK dogs. And in just the same way, very, very few NVBK guys cross to the KNPV dogs. Thats because both systems over the many decades have breed different types of dogs that suit their particular programs better. 



Timothy Stacy said:


> ----Quote- KNPV is controlled by the police for the training of police dogs. If you dont think so, just go to Holand, take your best undercover sleeve and see if the dogs will take the bite you offer.
> 
> Hum, I didn't know Dutch Police were the quality control inspectors for real dogs!No offense to Police but being an officer and having a dog doesn't make you a good dog trainer it makes you a K9 handler. Maybe we need a Olympic comittee. Just joking, maybe


Last time I checked a Police dog should be a "real" dog, that is he needs to bite bad guys who dont wear sleeves and suits. And also the Dutch police are considered by most other countries as having some of the best police dog units in the world. So I would also then say that yes, the Dutch Police are gonna pretty much know what works for them and what doesnt. So you could say the Dutch Police are the "Quality Control Inspectors" of what traits they require on the street. But, thats just elementry really.



Timothy Stacy said:


> ----Quote-I have never heard about food under boxes before, and theres lots of rubbish dogs that growl when people come near their bones that couldnt do a KNPV, FR or BR object guard if their lives depended on it.
> 
> I haver heard of this and for the end of your quote I agree that's why I stated at the beggining "good dogs"


Thats cool, where did you hear about it? Im interested in how they did it, and why they no longer tend to do it.



Timothy Stacy said:


> -----Quote- There is object guarding in the PH1 and PH2 titles. Yes there is an Obj Guard title which is a little different to the PH1 title. Infact the Obj program has tracking like IPO in it.
> 
> Thank you I did not know that but it's still a routine and does not compare to MR or BR.


I agree, I prefer the NVBK Object guard myself. I also like the muzzel guarding in the NVBK also. As far as the guarding test goes, no other sport does it to the extreme as NVBK does. Muzzel on civilian as well as suit. Hell, I just love the NVBK full stop.Thats why I train for it. 
But I still like FR and KNPV as well, but for different reasons. I find Mondio a bit a bastard child, being neither as good as FR or BR. I also have been really dissapointed by the lack of talent depth in Mondio. Obviously this comes from the participation numbers of MR compared to FR and BR.
Even after saying that, if MR was available to me I would take a dog down to do it as well.



Timothy Stacy said:


> -----By the way there are plenty of Schutzhund dogs that bite for real. Quick example out of 100's I'm sure other people have. A GSD II dog training for a III was in the blind barking. He anticipated the call out and looked back. The person in the blind who was doing a lot of ring work at the time decided to knee the dog in the shoulder. The dog bit him in the thigh pretty bad. The dog never had a leg bite in his life but he bit his ass regardless. Good civil dogs will bite with or without the sleeve. Every dog out there that bites a suit knows what the bite suit is. It's a piece of equipment!!!


Of course. A good dog is a good dog. But be under no illusion, as far as percentages go alot more KNPV, FR and NVBK dogs will bite for real first time they are presented with the opportunity to do so than IPO dogs. You cannot forget, nor try to dismiss, the fact that the vast majority of SchH/IPO titled dogs are show dogs, and we all know the chances of them being police dogs are slim. But the real serious working people in IPO/SchH do make sure their dogs are capable of being a Police dog. So we agree.


----------



## Timothy Stacy

"---Quote---Last time I checked a Police dog should be a "real" dog, that is he needs to bite bad guys who dont wear sleeves and suits. And also the Dutch police are considered by most other countries as having some of the best police dog units in the world. So I would also then say that yes, the Dutch Police are gonna pretty much know what works for them and what doesnt. So you could say the Dutch Police are the "Quality Control Inspectors" of what traits they require on the street. But, thats just elementry really."

I have never seen an actual street dog from Holland but I have seen plenty of American bred Police dogs, even GSD's that are real. Some good and others not so good. There are is no denying they have good dogs and bad dogs in Holland. I thought the civilians were doing most of the breeding, wouldn't that make the civilians the quality control for real dogsl? Don't be mistaken there are plenty of Police dogs around the world that should not be in service work and very few are probably ever tested in apprehension. 

By the way. You spelled elementary wrong. :-D

Please no more replies, my index finger hurts and the rain is letting up!!!


----------



## Christopher Jones

[quote=Timothy Stacy;117439]
Chris tell me which dog is being worked harder on the courage test? 3 minutes and 45 seconds into this SCH video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUTnb_1-P9s 

or this KNPV video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lk-ZEL2w9hM 

just joking! Again it's not the sport it's the dog! They can be real Regardless of the sport they train in. Here is a good one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcaAPhThnBM



and please don't give me the spiel of these dogs are real there in defense as your first post on this thread states your opinion of the drive they are in! [/quote]
In which way was the SchH dog being tested in that video? In your own words what was done to "test" him? I saw a dog in prey, caught very well by a talented decoy and swung nicely to the ground. I do not think he was being worked "Hard" at all. 
In regards to the KNPV clip I saw a couple of shitbags who were scared of the stick attack, and so were seen to be the poor dogs that they were. I would place a bet that even if by the grace of god those dogs got enough points everywhere else to pass, no police dept or dog broker would have touched them. 
So what exactly was your point? That there are crap dogs in KNPV? Of course there is. They dont have an assesment program for dogs before they are allowed to trial. The KNPV cant be responsible for someone taking a rubbish dog to a trial. If your point was that IPO is a harder test, again I ask you, how many of the SchH 3 show dogs would have passed this same KNPV stick attack? You see the difference is that those crap KNPV dogs most likely failed and were dismissed by the audience, where as the shit bag show GSD's with SchH 3 pronounced most likely got several hundred studs.
My issue isnt with the top line IPO/SchH and the working people who do it, my issue is the fact that IPO/SchH is controlled by people and judged by people who allow the standards and what the sport should be to be lowered.
In no way do I say the KNPV or the NVBK or FR are any wonder place, where only top dogs exist. It is moronic to imply so. But I do respect the NVBK for having the balls to break away from the St Hub system because they saw an errosion of the BR program, even at the expense of their dogs no longer been in the pedigree system.
I also respect the KNPV for telling the Dutch Kennel club to get stuffed when the kennel club told them that unless the KNPV only used pedigreed dogs they will no longer recognise the PH1 titles for pedigrees. 
Maybe you think otherwise, and thats cool. To each their own.

[quote=Timothy Stacy;117439]
By the way. You spelled elementary wrong.









Please no more replies, my index finger hurts and the rain is letting up!!!! [/quote]
lol, i'd be surprised if that was the only word I spelled wrong. 
Enjoy your training.


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## Gerry Grimwood

This is really getting stupid.


----------



## James Downey

Christopher Jones said:


> Of course. A good dog is a good dog. But be under no illusion, as far as percentages go alot more KNPV, FR and NVBK dogs will bite for real first time they are presented with the opportunity to do so than IPO dogs. You cannot forget, nor try to dismiss, the fact that the vast majority of SchH/IPO titled dogs are show dogs, and we all know the chances of them being police dogs are slim. But the real serious working people in IPO/SchH do make sure their dogs are capable of being a Police dog. So we agree.


I have been looking a lot of IPO pedigrees...mainly of Malinois. I am seeing lots and lots of KNPV dogs, a Few cross trained dogs...in a lot of Malinois Pedigress...and they are not that far back mostly 3 generations,a few are 1st generation, 5 in some. So what's the difference? Seems to be the owners decision on what sport they are training.

I also did not see one....not one show dog in all those Malinois pedigrees. I even tried to find some in the GSD...I did find some but that seemed to be a task in itself. 

So I am not so sure your comments are true about IPO.

As for serious IPO trainers...I have been doing this for about 6 years. I am not meeting these serious trainers who care if thier dog can really work as a police dog. What I am seeing in serious IPO training...is people serious about IPO. Thier is no secret that IPO is not battery of exercises that will prepare, or determine if a dog can work for real....But from what I have seen in real police dogs...neither is real police dog work. In fact in almost all the "real" videos I see, the bad guy walks away with a ripped sweat shirt. 

I Think this age old argument of if a dog can really work and what sport is best to test is plain BS. I am a Rescue Swimmer in the U.S. Coast Guard. I do not care how good Micheal Phelps is as a lap swimmer...His chance of survival in the Pacific Ocean on a dark and stormy night, in 30 foot seas...is quite slim. He is a sport swimmer. That's not a realistic gauge...or training for real work. The only real true test is actually going out and doing the work. So, Until these people with sport dogs, doing sport work...take thier dog throw it in the back of a squad car and actually get confronted with an actual threat. OR put it in a Humvee, and take it into combat....it's all speculation. 

I train IPO. I am not as Nieve to think that any sport will practically test my dog for the worst case possible. I also am not as nieve to think my dog would do well in an actual real life threat. I also am not very concerned with that. Because I am shooting for points not an apprehension. I do see a lot of IPO trainers claiming thier dog is real. It's just an Ego stroke. that does not convert good training, or points. Alot of IPO trainers buy dogs with the hopes it's a real dog? If you want a real dog...go buy a dog that's already proven itself. If you want an IPO dog...you can buy a pup that shows promise and train it.

It's no sweat off my brow if my dog will only bite a sleeve. I train IPO. In pratical senses it makes no difference if the dog is real to me or not. Just like for all pratical senses Micheal Phelps gives 2 shits if he can tromp through the North Atlantic in the middle of January....It's not going to help him win another gold medal.


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## Don Turnipseed

Normally I stay out of these discussions on protection dogs but, Downey brought up a couple of points I have wondered about for some time. Everyone says the dogs have to be proved. Dogs are not so stupid as to not figure out after countless times on the sleeve or the suit, they never get hurt. How does anyone know for sure what any dog is going to do until he is in a life and death struggle with someone that is actually breaking a few ribs and such using something besides a split bamboo stick? I wonder because I bring my dogs home with broken ribs, punctured stomachs, 8" gashes in their legs and necks, cheeks hanging down below their jaws, canines pulled out or broke off and they want to do it again the next day. These dogs have been tested.....how do you really test a PP dog so you know he isn't going to cur? Obviously you can't take a bat to them. Do you just put your butt on the line and hope for the best or what?


----------



## Mike Scheiber

Brigita Brinac said:


> What a great post! It's interesting to see another person's ideas and opinions. I think every program can lay claim as to why it's 'better' than the rest--age old debate...But whatever sandbox one plays in...in most cases is one of personal choice and attraction to that program and its dogs.
> 
> Loved the video BTW...yeah it's real enough. Thanks for posting! Here's another one that is pretty cool...tribute to different programs/decoys/training: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKf3Vh
> 
> Some really athletic and nice dogs...not to mention some great decoy work...I believe there's a guard of an object in one of these two...if I find a good one of a MR or BR Guard and maybe Defense of Handler...I'll post it as I think they are pretty complex. Have to appreciate these dogs and the training that goes into it...Especially when you throw environmental stuff into it.
> 
> Enjoy!
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkqfZYp_TVM
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzQe-LtBGS4


Oh man dont care about other videos. I think most folowing this thread want a look see at some of what your spewing with dogs like you have WDF members should not be left to hang at the edge of there key boards. I'm going to bed now I'll be back tomorrow Oh I got some money saved up I might be interested in one of them pups. I'm looking forward to a look at your amazing dogs.=P~ =P~ =P~


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## Daryl Ehret

A title can be but isn't necessarily relevant, and that's the part that disturbs a lot of people, when untitled dogs are considered "unfit" yet titled dogs are not truly "proven". It's become more of a formality, like getting a college degree, which doesn't prove intelligence, but gives cred above those without, even if there's no real-world experience involved. Incedently, I'd really like to know more about what Helmut Raiser has in mind for "breedworthiness" testing.


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## Brigita Brinac

I don't think there's any way to 100% guarantee that a dog isn't going to cur 

What your dogs go/have gone through...is likely to never happen to a majority of program dogs. And yes like you said...one can't just inflict pain to see how they react or if you can count on them...And I don't think one can 'train' for each and every possible scenario that you might encounter....impossible with so many variables.

I think the programs just had to come up with a standardization process by which to measure each and every dog in that program. But I don't think any one of them can _guarantee_ that each and every one of their dogs is going to measure up to yours or be the type of dog you need.


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## Bob Scott

Don Turnipseed said:


> Normally I stay out of these discussions on protection dogs but, Downey brought up a couple of points I have wondered about for some time. Everyone says the dogs have to be proved. Dogs are not so stupid as to not figure out after countless times on the sleeve or the suit, they never get hurt. How does anyone know for sure what any dog is going to do until he is in a life and death struggle with someone that is actually breaking a few ribs and such using something besides a split bamboo stick? I wonder because I bring my dogs home with broken ribs, punctured stomachs, 8" gashes in their legs and necks, cheeks hanging down below their jaws, canines pulled out or broke off and they want to do it again the next day. These dogs have been tested.....how do you really test a PP dog so you know he isn't going to cur? Obviously you can't take a bat to them. Do you just put your butt on the line and hope for the best or what?


 
Good points Don!
I've also stapled up my evil little bassids on the back of a pickup truck while they were screaming to get back in the ground. 
Had a couple of great ones that if they came out of the ground on their own you knew that whatever was still in there wouldn't cause anymore problems.
I can say all day long that I "believe" my two GSDs will bite. They "probably" will in a given situation but that doesn't give any hint of how or IF they will stay in a fight when it's truely brought to them. 
Gotta love the "evil" ones!


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## Brigita Brinac

Hi Rene...sorry it took so long...but I didn't forget  The town was Wijhe (Olst if I'm correct)...About 90 East of Amsterdam.

I'll try and upload a couple pics I had of my guy to the profile gallery tomorrow...Thanks for being so patient...I was really hoping to get this done earlier today. 

B


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## Brigita Brinac

probably easier just to give you this link than to upload pics.

http://fd-malinois.com/tyr_album/tyr.htm


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## Christopher Jones

James Downey said:


> I have been looking a lot of IPO pedigrees...mainly of Malinois. I am seeing lots and lots of KNPV dogs, a Few cross trained dogs...in a lot of Malinois Pedigress...and they are not that far back mostly 3 generations,a few are 1st generation, 5 in some. So what's the difference? Seems to be the owners decision on what sport they are training.
> 
> I also did not see one....not one show dog in all those Malinois pedigrees. I even tried to find some in the GSD...I did find some but that seemed to be a task in itself.
> 
> So I am not so sure your comments are true about IPO.


Sorry I might not of been too clear. In the KNPV the biggest % of dogs (90%) are not pedigreed, and they come from different lines. These dogs have different chacter traits than the FCI pedigreed dogs. So when people generally talk about "KNPV Malis" or "Dutch Malinois" these unregistered dogs are what they are refering to. Most FCI pedigreed Malinois do carry alot of Belgian lines, German lines and French lines. So yes, you would not see too much difference between the FCI Registered Malis in the KNPV and the other FCI Pedigreed Malis in other sports.
When I was talking about show dogs, I was not refering to Malis but rather GSD's. Your proberbly already aware that all GSD's in Germany for instance have to be titled in SchH before they can be bred. The number of show dogs out number the working dogs bred, by about 70-80% last time I looked into it. In SchH/IPO they have what the working people call "Midnight Trials" where soft weak show dogs do their trial and come out with great scores and then they can be bred from. So in reality far more SchH titled dogs in Germany are show dogs and their working qualities are very suspect, deff not Police quality.
Hope this helps clear it up.


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## Timothy Stacy

I finally did it. I struck out 4 times last night in my semi-pro baseball league so I quit. I'm now in Cricket, it's just so much more real. It's just me and my neighbor so there is really no competition but the ball is harder and it's thrown so much faster. Well, we don't throw the ball faster but THEY do! I mean guys are getting there teeth knocked out in Cricket for God sake!:lol: The rules are really obscure to most here in the states but me and my friends are still playing it. At least nobody can say we are wrong. I mean baseball sucks, I just hate it. My old teammates say I'm full of [email protected]*t but they just don't understand and it's not worth explaining it! If they don't get it by now,they are "sofa king"(may have to read the quotes out load) stupid they'll never get it. Cricket is the manly sport!!!!!


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## Jeff Oehlsen

You are wee todd it. Sofa king wee todd it. LOL

One of the greatest scams in all of history is dog training.


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## Timothy Stacy

I really want to play the bastard sport of Jai Alai. In Jai Alai the men are men and so are the women!!!I find it's structure to be EXTREMELY serious. I'll probably go that route if Cricket takes off here!!!
*
*


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## Timothy Stacy

I removed the wee todd did. I didn't want to offend. I thought I was alone this early in the morning. I liked it that way! I didn't have anyone quoting me like earlier!


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## Timothy Stacy

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> You are wee todd it. Sofa king wee todd it. LOL
> 
> One of the greatest scams in all of history is dog training.


You screwed it up. It's you are "sofa king wee todd did." 

Jeff did you know chimpanzees open bananas at the opposite end that we do. They don't pull on the tab. They push there nail in the bottom of the banana and peel(very bottom where the dark spot is). It's actually easier especially when you get a green one that just doesn't want to be peeled! Try it next time. Although chimps raised in captivity learn our way. There's more than one way to peel a banana. 


What were we talking about?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I think we were talking about training in a sport that I will never in my life participate in, and how everyones dog is super tough.

Don has the only dogs that really get tested......on hogs. Much worse than criminals I would imagine, percentage wise.

Guy down here hunts hogs and just lost his best dog, as in dead. Crazy. And I complain because I don't get to train as much as I like.


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## Don Turnipseed

So what happens if you put your dog on a bad guy that also has a bad dog??? I mean since baseball is out and cricket is in..... I heard tell of a guy that was using a dog to assist him in muggings....now what


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## Timothy Stacy

Wow! Now that's technical!


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## Don Turnipseed

I bet a KNPV dog could handle it.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I would just bust out my "ol skool getto pit boo, an ma nine"

Jai Alai is the shit. you don't play it, you go down to cuba and buy some young kids to play it for you, and weed them out. You gotta buy a bunch of them, or it doesn't work. Kinda like Dobes.


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## Daryl Ehret

The most "manly" sport I've played was horseback football. It got really rough. Trashcans on each end of the field for goals, running them into the fence, jumping from your horse to tackle the guy who had the ball and steal his horse. Then one game, my army roomate got his head stepped on by an english Shire. He looked pretty ridiculous with his head in bandages for a couple months. I didn't wanna play anymore after that.


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M61bFckmQxI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAd-cHvgr4A

just uploaded them, maybe will take ahwile 'till you can see them


trainingvids of the same dog, different program. Ped mali bred by my dad www.bloedlijnen.nl/stamboom.php?ID=6398
We both loved this dog, she was a prey dog, you could bring her to PH1 but no policedog in our eyes, more a sportsdog.

This is what we (try) to breed and want to do the PH1 cert. with. After his certification this dog started working the streets.

Robbie II
http://www.vanleeuwen-dutchshepherds.nl/filmpje/robbie_stok_stefroest.mpg

http://www.vanleeuwen-dutchshepherds.nl/filmpje/robbie_werp_stefroest.mpg

http://www.vanleeuwen-dutchshepherds.nl/filmpje/robbie_fiets_stefroest.mpg


And a little movie of a practical excercise ( 1.20 min:not taught, was the first time they did this excercise):
Spike

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTUwVWO8qO0&NR=1


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Nice pedigree. I see they still have G'Vtou as a titled dog. LOL Ooops.


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M61bFckmQxI
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAd-cHvgr4A
> 
> just uploaded them, maybe will take ahwile 'till you can see them
> 
> 
> trainingvids of the same dog, different program. Ped mali bred by my dad www.bloedlijnen.nl/stamboom.php?ID=6368
> We both loved this dog, she was a prey dog, you could bring her to PH1 but no policedog in our eyes, more a sportsdog.
> 
> 
> Are the Perle de Tourbiere lines known as mostly prey dogs?


----------



## James Downey

Timothy Stacy said:


> Selena van Leeuwen said:
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M61bFckmQxI
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAd-cHvgr4A
> 
> just uploaded them, maybe will take ahwile 'till you can see them
> 
> 
> trainingvids of the same dog, different program. Ped mali bred by my dad www.bloedlijnen.nl/stamboom.php?ID=6368
> We both loved this dog, she was a prey dog, you could bring her to PH1 but no policedog in our eyes, more a sportsdog.
> 
> 
> Are the Perle de Tourbiere lines known as mostly prey dogs?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I do not know much Perle De Tourbiere lines....But Interesting dogs in the Ped to me for "REAL" dogs are the Boscallie lines...Debbie Skinner has a few dogs from the those lines in Cali....Some doing police work and some sport...but word is the ones out of Kim Boscaillie were son of bitches.
Click to expand...


----------



## Barrie Kirkland

Thanks for the vids, I liked the last one of spike 

He looks fantastic


----------



## Bob Scott

Always interesting to see your training videos.
One question;
IN the first video when you were doing the back transport, Dick turned to the dog with his stick side instead of the sleeve side. What is the reason for that? 
In my limited expierience in schutzhund I've only seen the helper/decoy turn to the sleeve side. 
TIA


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen

Bob Scott said:


> Always interesting to see your training videos.
> One question;
> IN the first video when you were doing the back transport, Dick turned to the dog with his stick side instead of the sleeve side. What is the reason for that?
> In my limited expierience in schutzhund I've only seen the helper/decoy turn to the sleeve side.
> TIA


To learn her patience/ ob excercise, she must only bite on the attack on my command.

In both vids she was about 2 yrs. she is sold to the UK as breeding bitch and to do IPO, she was better in that program


----------



## Bob Scott

Thanks Selena! That would be similar to our foosing on past the decoy with no bite or turning right when the decoy turns left. That's our way of teaching patience and correct obedience. 
Another way of asking control from the dog.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Where are the videos of Wibo ?? Cheaters ! I have seen the one of Spike before, he is a nice bit of work for sure. One day, before hell freezes over, I want to come and see how you train. you can let the dogs bite the crap out of me and all that as long as I get to pick your brains afterwards. : )


----------



## Christopher Jones

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M61bFckmQxI
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAd-cHvgr4A
> 
> just uploaded them, maybe will take ahwile 'till you can see them
> 
> 
> trainingvids of the same dog, different program. Ped mali bred by my dad www.bloedlijnen.nl/stamboom.php?ID=6368
> We both loved this dog, she was a prey dog, you could bring her to PH1 but no policedog in our eyes, more a sportsdog.
> 
> This is what we (try) to breed and want to do the PH1 cert. with. After his certification this dog started working the streets.
> 
> Robbie II
> http://www.vanleeuwen-dutchshepherds.nl/filmpje/robbie_stok_stefroest.mpg
> 
> http://www.vanleeuwen-dutchshepherds.nl/filmpje/robbie_werp_stefroest.mpg
> 
> http://www.vanleeuwen-dutchshepherds.nl/filmpje/robbie_fiets_stefroest.mpg
> 
> 
> And a little movie of a practical excercise ( 1.20 min:not taught, was the first time they did this excercise):
> Spike
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTUwVWO8qO0&NR=1


It looked to me as if you did automatic outs with Robbie II? I couldnt hear dicks commands before he outed.


----------



## Ellen Piepers

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Ped mali bred by my dad www.bloedlijnen.nl/stamboom.php?ID=6368


Small typo I assume Selena, is it this one? http://www.bloedlijnen.nl/stamboom.php?ID=6398

I like all the videos for different reasons . Furie seems to be the same type as my own dog.


----------



## R Janssen

@Selena, I'm surprised that dog didn't turn into stone with that look Dick gave him. 

Personally I'm not a fan of Tinnemans, However my neighbor has one of those "cats" and is training PH1 with her.


----------



## Timothy Stacy

rene_limburg said:


> @Selena, I'm surprised that dog didn't turn into stone with that look Dick gave him.
> 
> Personally I'm not a fan of Tinnemans, However my neighbor has one of those "cats" and is training PH1 with her.




I see Tinnemans line breeds very very tight. What are the dogs like??? When you say cats, I'm assuming they are crazy prey driven dogs.Is that the norm for his lines? There are a lot of people importing his dogs it seems. Although I have never seen one in the ring sports.


----------



## Gillian Schuler

I've not finished watching the videos but of what I've seen up to now - I like - very good dogs.

Good to know there are breeders out there that really care about what they are doing - not just shooting their mouths off


----------



## R Janssen

Timothy Stacy said:


> I see Tinnemans line breeds very very tight. What are the dogs like??? When you say cats, I'm assuming they are crazy prey driven dogs.Is that the norm for his lines? There are a lot of people importing his dogs it seems. Although I have never seen one in the ring sports.



One of the reasons is that they have short ears, these photo's show you what i mean. :

(Just to clearefy, when i say i personally don't like a line, doesn't mean it is a bad line.
But better had my mouth shut anyway... )


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen

Christopher Jones said:


> It looked to me as if you did automatic outs with Robbie II? I couldnt hear dicks commands before he outed.


Than you haven´t listened well ;-) He outed on command, but Dicks commands aren't very loud. A dog have a lot better ears than we have.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Ellen Piepers said:


> Small typo I assume Selena, is it this one? http://www.bloedlijnen.nl/stamboom.php?ID=6398
> 
> I like all the videos for different reasons . Furie seems to be the same type as my own dog.


Yes a typo, will correct it in my previous post.


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## Erik Berg

What is the mental difference between furie and robbie II that makes furie more of a sportdog, if we look at those KNPV-clips of furie and robbie there seems to not be so much difference, besides that robbie are a bit larger and therefore stronger I suppose.

Another thing, the dutch kennel van fort oranje, what type of dogs are they known for?


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Selena

I want to know a little more about the KNPV routine. Is there muzzle work in the PH1? If so do you have video?
Also, the PH1 I'm told has the object guard. Is that correct? Do you have video of this? Doesn't have to be your dogs, just a video of the PH1 object guard.
Last question. How do NVBK/Belgian offspring do in the KNPV routine?


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## Barrie Kirkland

Outs smouts 

Who cares , anyone fancy giving one of these as my next patrol dog ?


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen

Timothy Stacy said:


> Selena
> 
> I want to know a little more about the KNPV routine. Is there muzzle work in the PH1? If so do you have video?
> Also, the PH1 I'm told has the object guard. Is that correct? Do you have video of this? Doesn't have to be your dogs, just a video of the PH1 object guard.
> Last question. How do NVBK/Belgian offspring do in the KNPV routine?


There's no muzzle routine in the KNPV program, unlike some other European countries dogs doesn't wear a muzzle while doing streetwork so there isnt any in the KNPV.

We do train it with our own dogs, fun to do some extra.
yes we have a objectguard, in another thread (search for object guard) there is a vid, to be honest the object guard in FR/BR/MR is more spetacular imo, as far as I know the programs, not as predictable. The score in those programs is a lot higher, in the KNPV is only 10 points of the total 440. We have to let the dog guard in 2 meters. There are difference in trainingmethods of the KNPV program, so you can see different kinds of the guarding. As an example we train the dog to bite if the decoy start reaching for the object, can be on 50 cm, not everybody trains that way.

At the club besides ours somebody trains ped malis, he loves the belgium lines, is another kind of dog as we train. He always scores around 437 ;-) High scores but they are not patroldogs.


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen

Erik Berg said:


> What is the mental difference between furie and robbie II that makes furie more of a sportdog, if we look at those KNPV-clips of furie and robbie there seems to not be so much difference, besides that robbie are a bit larger and therefore stronger I suppose.
> 
> Another thing, the dutch kennel van fort oranje, what type of dogs are they known for?


You can't see much difference 'cause the both are trained in the same method/trainingstyle, only the dose of punishment/reward is different. Robbie was about 17 cm larger and 25 kg heavier than Furie....

The intention of working was totally different, Furie liked to play, never got angry. Robbie got angry fast and wanted to bite the man in the suit, if Furie would have known she hurted somebody she wouldn't have bitten the way she did.

Ask Mike S or Tim M how it feels to have Robbie on your leg ;-)

Van Fort Oranje are very big dogs, males about 70 cm height, work mostly in the IPO. Can't remember of hearing from one in the KNPV.


----------



## Christopher Jones

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> At the club besides ours somebody trains ped malis, he loves the belgium lines, is another kind of dog as we train. He always scores around 437 ;-) High scores but they are not patroldogs.


Gepkin?


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> There's no muzzle routine in the KNPV program, unlike some other European countries dogs doesn't wear a muzzle while doing streetwork so there isnt any in the KNPV.
> At the club besides ours somebody trains ped malis, he loves the belgium lines, is another kind of dog as we train. He always scores around 437 ;-) High scores but they are not patroldogs.



Is this your opinion because there are plenty of Belgium dogs on the streets in the US and even in the Military in Belgium! As far as the muzzle not being used on the street...neither is a bite suit and we still train with those. Besides I thought it proofs a dog on a person with regular clothing. Well there are always bums in the USA that will take a real bite for a bottle of wine.


----------



## Timothy Stacy

I thought KNPV was the street worthiness test, right? So dogs that are scoring high are not street worthy?
I'm confused! 

Also there are plenty of dogs that are just pure aggression dogs that end up getting put down since they can't keep their aggression in check. Some, not all of these dogs are a liability and many are put down for reasons such as biting the Captain for simply walking by,attacking the handler for something relatively small , etc etc! Happened pretty close to home here on 2 occasions. Waste of money for the departments. Looks great but.......l


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen

Christopher Jones said:


> Gepkin?


yes ;-) he's my "uncle", he use to train with my dad and I know him since I'm about 1.5 yrs old.


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen

Timothy Stacy said:


> Is this your opinion


yes, my opinion. I like the dogs (don't know much other belgium lines) that he's training, but the ones he's having are more sportsdogs IMO (and by his own saying) than policedogs by nature. Sorry maybe didn;t explain it clear.


about the muzzle training, it is just how you train if it really proofs a dog will bite without clothing I think. Many dogs won't bite if there isnt a suit or sleeve around, so yes if a dogs bites on a suit it doesnt also proof it will bite civilian (my opinion).


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen

Timothy Stacy said:


> I thought KNPV was the street worthiness test, right? So dogs that are scoring high are not street worthy?
> I'm confused!


it doen't automatically means if you score high it will be a street working dog. Sometimes dogs with lower scores are more high potential dogs, but the handler had problems with training.



> Also there are plenty of dogs that are just pure aggression dogs that end up getting put down since they can't keep their aggression in check. Some, not all of these dogs are a liability and many are put down for reasons such as biting the Captain for simply walking by,attacking the handler for something relatively small , etc etc! Happened pretty close to home here on 2 occasions. Waste of money for the departments. Looks great but.......l


and usually that are the kinds of dogs, that in my/our opinion, are the patroldogs by nature. You just have to know how to handle them ;-) What you wrote is one of our main concerns and why we don't like/ do (seldom) sell our dogs to the US.


----------



## Timothy Stacy

--Quote__You just have to know how to handle them







What you wrote is one of our main concerns and why we don't like/ do (seldom) sell our dogs to the US.

Easy there! By no means do I consider you better trainers. Just different "SPORT". Plenty of people in Germany, Holland, Belguim, get bit up and it's not always the trainers fault. Hopefully you never experience that yourself!


----------



## Timothy Stacy

How many REAL apprehensions would you say are made by Police dogs in Holland?

I'd take a gamble and say there are many more here.


----------



## Christopher Jones

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> yes
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> he's my "uncle", he use to train with my dad and I know him since I'm about 1.5 yrs old.





Selena van Leeuwen said:


> yes, my opinion. I like the dogs (don't know much other belgium lines) that he's training, but the ones he's having are more sportsdogs IMO (and by his own saying) than policedogs by nature. Sorry maybe didn;t explain it clear.


Willem sent a number of dogs here to Oz, the latest being Kukays Aras PH1, having seen the dog and a number of his offspring, I totally understand, and agree with the point you are making. 
Willem is apprently a really nice guy, and I have yet to ever hear anyone with a bad word to say about him.
But he likes and prefers the Pedigreed dogs, and as you said likes the sportier dog than the serious one.


----------



## Christopher Jones

Timothy Stacy said:


> --Quote__You just have to know how to handle them
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What you wrote is one of our main concerns and why we don't like/ do (seldom) sell our dogs to the US.
> 
> Easy there! By no means do I consider you better trainers. Just different "SPORT". Plenty of people in Germany, Holland, Belguim, get bit up and it's not always the trainers fault. Hopefully you never experience that yourself!


Gee, talk about taking someones words out of context. 
In regards to not been able to handle the dogs, speak to someone like Mike Suttle, a fellow American, and he will tell you the exact same thing. The vast majority of Police Departments in the USA cannot handle the strong dogs like Arko and Wibo etc. The exact same thing is true here as well.
Get over it.


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## Timothy Stacy

So all of the non pedigreed dogs are serious. No seriousness ones in a litter of pedigreed dogs. Hilarious!!!!! 
Chris we all ready esablished that the title doesn't mean anything. It's a SPORT!!!!!!!!!!
Aras who knows maybe he was a sporty one you seen. He probably scored high...


----------



## Timothy Stacy

--Quote--- The vast majority of Police Departments in the USA cannot handle the strong dogs like Arko and Wibo etc. The exact same thing is true here as well.

Exactly, So Selena is breeding for Police but only USA Police can't handle them. It's the same all over the world. You think every officer in Europe have natural handling skills???


----------



## Timothy Stacy

I'm done with this thread it's getting off topic. KNPV is a Sport.


----------



## Ellen Piepers

Timothy Stacy said:


> --Quote--- The vast majority of Police Departments in the USA cannot handle the strong dogs like Arko and Wibo etc. The exact same thing is true here as well.
> 
> Exactly, So Selena is breeding for Police but only USA Police can't handle them. It's the same all over the world. You think every officer in Europe have natural handling skills???


Who says _only_ USA Police can't handle them? Do you think Dick would use dogs like Arko and Wibo for regardless which dutch police handler? I'm very sure he doesn't.
(how's Marco doing, Dick/Selena? ;-))

In KNPV you just see different types of dogs, that's all, and not all people training in KNPV have exactly the same objective, apart from the standards of the program itself. Some really want to get their dog in a police job (mind that over here not all police dogs have the same kind of work....), others want to get to the Championships (and they might just as well own a "serious" dog or a sports dog), some just want to get the most out of their dogs and then don't care where they end up, etcetera.... So differently motivated people can have a preference for different types of dogs and succesfully train their dogs in the KNPV programs.


----------



## Christopher Jones

Timothy Stacy said:


> So all of the non pedigreed dogs are serious. No seriousness ones in a litter of pedigreed dogs. Hilarious!!!!!
> Chris we all ready esablished that the title doesn't mean anything. It's a SPORT!!!!!!!!!!
> Aras who knows maybe he was a sporty one you seen. He probably scored high...


Again, jumping to conclusions. Man, you must own a pedigree Mali from Belgian lines to take this so personally.
Nowhere has anyone said "Pedigree dogs are sport dogs only" or "Only Unregistered dogs are serious". The "Pedigree" and the "seriousness" dont have to go together.
You asked Selena if she had seen any Belgian dogs and what where they like at KNPV. Selena replyed that yes a guy they knew liked pedigreed dogs from Belguim and they scored around 437 (which is a very high score) but they were more sport than Police. 
What exactly did you want her to say? Did you want her to lie for you and tell you that these particular Belgian dogs were the best they had ever seen? 
We all know there are super aggressive Pedigreed Belgian dogs. We had one here in Aust called Zico vd Berlex Hoeve, IPO3. Awesome dog. Very serious, high drive. Bit the top of his owners finger off here. Berhard Flinks stated that if he could give a dog 11/10 this dog would get it. Theres tons of super FCI Malis around. In France, in Germany, in Holland, in Belgium etc etc. Do you need Dick and Selena to confrim this for you, or are you capable and experienced enough to be able to make your own mind up with these types of things?
All I have heard from Dick and Selena is they have been describing their own dogs, the type of dogs they like and breed for and the traits they have. You and another here just cant seem to let them do this because it means that someone is saying some dogs are good that just dont happen to be yours.
In short, dont ask a question if you dont like the answer you might get!


----------



## Christopher Jones

Timothy Stacy said:


> --Quote--- The vast majority of Police Departments in the USA cannot handle the strong dogs like Arko and Wibo etc. The exact same thing is true here as well.
> 
> Exactly, So Selena is breeding for Police but only USA Police can't handle them. It's the same all over the world. You think every officer in Europe have natural handling skills???


Absolutley, but in Holland at least Dick can help the Handler, pick the right handler and even take the dog back if needs be. He cant do this in the USA. 
Maybe they care about the dogs they breed and what happens to them. Maybe they would hate to see one of their dogs end up getting the green dream because it put a K9 handler in hospital. 
Why do you always have to see a sinister side to every comment they make?
Theres a line in a U2 song and it goes "A liar never believes anyone else"


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen

Christopher Jones said:


> Absolutley, but in Holland at least Dick can help the Handler, pick the right handler and even take the dog back if needs be. He cant do this in the USA.
> Maybe they care about the dogs they breed and what happens to them. Maybe they would hate to see one of their dogs end up getting the green dream because it put a K9 handler in hospital.
> Why do you always have to see a sinister side to every comment they make?
> Theres a line in a U2 song and it goes "A liar never believes anyone else"


Tnx, Chris. We certainly don't want to convince anyone about what is better or not. There are differences in type of dogs. Also in KNPV. We just discribe our experiences and opinion.

And yes, sometimes it looks like people want to comment just for the comment. Its difficult to show people what your talking about if they are not over here, so you can show them. On the other hand, maybe that is something we should not want to.
Some little voice inside me would invite some people to do a short OB with Wibo or for that matter with his young offspring, our Bassie. (for the people in the US lies a posibility to ask Mike to do so with Arko or Carlos).

Its also sometimes difficult to accept some people, or for that matter, countries are different than others.(on purpose I don't use the word better...)
We KNOW here in Holland sure aren't good in baseball, basketball, american football, but we KNOW our soccer and K1... and there is nothing wrong with that. 

For some people it is hard to understand this small country is also good in something......
Oh I forgot, in the 17th centurie we ruled the seas with countries as France and England....:mrgreen: and owned New York.....:-\" :-\" Just kidding.....

In the end it is ashame this topic has nothing to do anymore with puppy development...:roll: 


Dick


----------



## Christopher Jones

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> but we KNOW our soccer and _*K1*_...


Ahh, K1. Hoost, Yvel, Hardonk, Schilt and Rutten to name but a few. A guy here from my town who fights in K1 has moved to Holland to train, his name is Paul Skowronski. 
Have you been to any of the Holland Free Fight Nights? Got a few of those on DVD and they werent too bad.


----------



## Ellen Piepers

Christopher Jones said:


> Have you been to any of the Holland Free Fight Nights? Got a few of those on DVD and they werent too bad.


I haven't heard of anyone yet taking their pups to events like this for puppy development ;-)


----------



## Christopher Jones

Ellen Piepers said:


> I haven't heard of anyone yet taking their pups to events like this for puppy development ;-)


Its only new, we are working on it  Im gonna be the first person to train his dog to do an arm bar. lol


----------



## Ellen Piepers

Christopher Jones said:


> Its only new, we are working on it  Im gonna be the first person to train his dog to do an arm bar. lol


Looking forward to your video on it :mrgreen:


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen

Christopher Jones said:


> Ahh, K1. Hoost, Yvel, Hardonk, Schilt and Rutten to name but a few. A guy here from my town who fights in K1 has moved to Holland to train, his name is Paul Skowronski.
> Have you been to any of the Holland Free Fight Nights? Got a few of those on DVD and they werent too bad.


Trained the same Gym as Hoost and Peter Aerts for 25 years. (Dojo Chakuriki in Amsterdam, choached by shihan Thom Harinck). 
I've seen Paul Slowinski fight several times. Strong, big fellow.... 

Dick

ps
Sorry Ellen, for the "stupid male-off topic talk"... lol


----------



## Christopher Jones

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Trained the same Gym as Hoost and Peter Aerts for 25 years. (Dojo Chakuriki in Amsterdam, choached by shihan Thom Harinck).
> I've seen Paul Slowinski fight several times. Strong, big fellow....
> 
> Dick
> 
> ps
> Sorry Ellen, for the "stupid male-off topic talk"... lol


Hope you didnt take too many leg kicks from Hoost and Aerts. :-o Thats pretty much the best kickboxing gym in the world. I unfortunatly missed the last kickboxing fights here a couple of weeks ago. Apparently it turned into a riot between a couple of the 1% outlaw bikie clubs in the crowd. Saw Paul fight here a few times, yeah big boy, but he doesnt have the heart of Hoost or Aerts. I have no doubt he has gotten better since his time in Holland.


----------



## Guest

Here is what I've distilled from all this.

Correct me where I'm wrong.

The grip is not judged in KNPV. Therefore:

- If one can fairly generalize, despite the lack of judging of it, the grips in _KNPV are currently still good...._right? Good enough to not make as big of a deal over it as the Belgian...or whoever.

-The grip in KNPV _can't be judged anyway_ due to the nature of the exercises and suit.

Yet, Selena brought up that the _grip should be part of the judging criteria._

That contradicts the first two points though, right? Why fix it if it isn't broken? And why change those things which make the grip undjudgeable to begin with? Those sound like a significant change to the program.

Additionally, KNPV is not supposed to be a sport. It is geared towards producing dogs for the street. The dog is judged and given points based on proficiency in the exercises which relate to street performance. Strictly in terms of that which the dog physically does, where does one make the distinction? The fact that the human does not intend to sell the dog after the trial/certification? If the same exactly exercises were oranized into a program in the United States, let's say, and people repeatedly trialed the dogs instead of selling them....then would it be a sport?

A NVBK dog, which Selena mentioned, scores high...and yet she doesn't consider it street worthy. Fine.

Isn't that the same exact thing which can be said for any given dog in any of the other programs? At least that's what the humans say. However, the dogs still acclimatize to patterns and equipment....not unlike the "sports".

So we're back to breeders having an eye which is more critical than what points in the program indicates.

Unpapered dogs.

Why would they be unpapered?

-Degrees of linebreeding which the FCI frowns upon....?

- Mixing of different registered breeds.

Why in the world would there be mixing of different breeds?

We're back to choosing the appropriate individual dog again from various training venues with significantly overlapping criteria, right?

As far as the Van Leeuwen breeding program; it sounds like those dogs aren't neccesarily reprentative of KNPV dogs in general. That is, if Holland is exporting thousands of dogs to thousands of new handlers, and yet the Van Leeuwen dogs have to be specially placed...well...that makes it hard to talk about the KNPV program in general, if we're using Dick and Selena's dogs as fair representatives. Which it doesn't sound like they are...it sounds like their personal preferences far exceeds the requisite average.

Which brings us back to the invidividual breeders with their critical eye which transcends mere points, and the individual dogs...in any venue.

...right?


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Johan Cryuff will always be my favorite soccer player of all times.


----------



## Barrie Kirkland

the threads really getting negative towards the whole sport or "real sport" aspect of KNPV

for me as a PD handler i would want a knpv dog before any other dog from another sport discipline. Yeah maybe they are not "street" dogs however the training has make the dogs have the correct drives & state of mind for easy convertion to the street.

I have no doubt if i had a dog from the program it would easily be biting neds in no time  haha


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

There is a Leerburg tape that shows a KNPV dog with METLOF points or whatever getting run off by a FR decoy.

This is what I get curious about more than anything, and it has nothin to do with nothin really:

OK, somehow in fantasy land, I give Dick what I consider to be an aggro pup, say, one of Don T's Airedales, and he gives anyone what he considers an aggro pup. then they raise and train the dogs the way we train the dogs normally.

What will the outcome of this be ?? How much of the aggro remains in a pup that was trained with what are currently the techniques used for teaching MR ?? 

Keep in mind that this is fantasy, so both pups are not flawed in any sense as far as the power of the pup.


----------



## Ellen Piepers

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> ps
> Sorry Ellen, for the "stupid male-off topic talk"... lol


I don't mind, we watch K1 at home


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> There is a Leerburg tape that shows a KNPV dog with METLOF points or whatever getting run off by a FR decoy.
> 
> This is what I get curious about more than anything, and it has nothin to do with nothin really:
> 
> OK, somehow in fantasy land, I give Dick what I consider to be an aggro pup, say, one of Don T's Airedales, and he gives anyone what he considers an aggro pup. then they raise and train the dogs the way we train the dogs normally.
> 
> What will the outcome of this be ?? How much of the aggro remains in a pup that was trained with what are currently the techniques used for teaching MR ??
> 
> Keep in mind that this is fantasy, so both pups are not flawed in any sense as far as the power of the pup.


I believe I saw that video too. Interesting, so your saying it might be the training methods that bring out the aggression. By the way I here lots about Arko. I'd love to see some video of his obedience like Dick stated earlier.


----------



## Ellen Piepers

Steven Lepic said:


> Unpapered dogs.
> 
> Why would they be unpapered?
> 
> -Degrees of linebreeding which the FCI frowns upon....?
> 
> - Mixing of different registered breeds.


I don't think they're unpapered because of the FCI, because in The Netherlands you don't need approval for combinations prior to breeding for pedigree mals anyway. If the parents are registered mals, their children will get the pedigree too, if you apply for them. If you read on the history of xMH for example, you can see that e.g. after WWII people in KNPV didn't care about the papers and simply saved money by not requesting them. What count for them was the quality of the dog, not the paperwork. Once a "pedigree" dog's children don't have papers, their children won't be eligible for them either, as the stud books are closed here. So once you're out, you're out forever, whether or not you'd cross with other breeds or not. As in KNPV FCI pedigree wasn't considered to be of importance, people kept breeding with these dogs based on their quality. 

Nowadays, it is still not that uncommon to see FCI pedigree dogs being mated to non-FCI dogs, simply because the owner believes in that particular combination. 
 



Steven Lepic said:


> We're back to choosing the appropriate individual dog again from various training venues with significantly overlapping criteria, right?


I think you're right here.


----------



## Christopher Jones

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> There is a Leerburg tape that shows a KNPV dog with METLOF points or whatever getting run off by a FR decoy.
> 
> This is what I get curious about more than anything, and it has nothin to do with nothin really:
> 
> OK, somehow in fantasy land, I give Dick what I consider to be an aggro pup, say, one of Don T's Airedales, and he gives anyone what he considers an aggro pup. then they raise and train the dogs the way we train the dogs normally.
> 
> What will the outcome of this be ?? How much of the aggro remains in a pup that was trained with what are currently the techniques used for teaching MR ??
> 
> Keep in mind that this is fantasy, so both pups are not flawed in any sense as far as the power of the pup.


I have had just one litter of KNPV Dutchies, but have had litters of GSD's, Dobermanns and also Mali's from FCI bloodlines. I can honestly say that these pups are deff a level above the other pups I have had. And some of them (3 out of 5 pups) have a big tendancy to be handler aggressive. More than any other pups I have had, if these pups are pushed unfairly by their owners they can go back into them, in aggression. They also have a far higher tollerance to correctons, being far less sensitive to prongs and electric. 
This is all I can tell you so far, and its a story that you also hear from other people enough to say its a trait.
Are you refering to the first MR videos of Frawley's with the FR decoy runnig off the KNPV dog? One of my club members father was in the first MR Champs in Belgium and he took his KNPV dog there.
French decoys are very, very hard decoys. Infact for me the skill of the French decoys is the reason I love FR also.


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Chris I think a lot of your sweeping generalizations about the KNPV SPORT and the dogs in it started this off. I think I've maintained the actual dog in front of me throughout this. Maybe you should go back and read some of your first 5 posts.


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Christopher Jones said:


> I have had just one litter of KNPV Dutchies, but have had litters of GSD's, Dobermanns and also Mali's from FCI bloodlines. I can honestly say that these pups are deff a level above the other pups I have had. And some of them (3 out of 5 pups) have a big tendancy to be handler aggressive. More than any other pups I have had, if these pups are pushed unfairly by their owners they can go back into them, in aggression. They also have a far higher tollerance to correctons, being far less sensitive to prongs and electric.
> This is all I can tell you so far, and its a story that you also hear from other people enough to say its a trait.
> Are you refering to the first MR videos of Frawley's with the FR decoy runnig off the KNPV dog? One of my club members father was in the first MR Champs in Belgium and he took his KNPV dog there.
> French decoys are very, very hard decoys. Infact for me the skill of the French decoys is the reason I love FR also.


I can't see that this has anything to do with papers or no papers. There are FCI breeders that breed dogs that are handler hard or handler soft. First and foremost the breeder can select what dogs he wants or not, papers or no papers.

Here, it's so that the amount of toilet paper you use is registered - it might clog up the sewers.


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Gillian Schuler said:


> I can't see that this has anything to do with papers or no papers. There are FCI breeders that breed dogs that are handler hard or handler soft. First and foremost the breeder can select what dogs he wants or not, papers or no papers.
> 
> Here, it's so that the amount of toilet paper you use is registered - it might clog up the sewers.



Exactly, great point.

So let's go back to a quote you made Chris!

--Quote--You honestly think that biting a hard arm and getting swung around by the decoy is anywhere near as hard a test as a dog hitting a bitesuit in the upper arm and getting jammed into the decoy while been hit across the head, back ears (what ever place they end up hitting) with a stick and getting screamed at?
And then you went into a tyrad about show dogs. I think we all understand that so in your own words "get over it"!

I think that Selena cleared that up with this quote for you"Many dogs won't bite if there isnt a suit or sleeve around, so yes if a dogs bites on a suit it doesnt also proof it will bite civilian (my opinion)."So hopefully you understand that it is just equipment. So It's the training and the dog that really matter.

So then you asked me later to explain in my own words why the IPO courage test is better and who is being worked harder.

Of coarse I'm talking about Good Working lines with good helpers, just so you don't go back to the show dog rubbish.
Here we go. In both sports the dog is running down the field at a screaming Helper/Decoy.

In KNPV the dog runs down the field and jumps at the armpit(the spot he was trained to) biting the "EQUIPMENT"The Dogs I saw in the videos never got hit across the head. 

IPO- Same scenario dog running down field at approaching decoy who screams. Targeted to his EQUIPMENT he bites it. 

So all the threat comes before the bite, correct? Once the dog bites, assuming both do bite comes the next part.

After the bite!
The KNPV decoy stands like staue and the high drive dogs we are dealing with slams into him without recoiling. Dogs can get severly hurt here doing it's job!The decoy then proceeds to move 3 or 4 steps and wait for the out.

In IPO the dog is swung as you said gently trying the best not to hurt the dog! I appreciate that! Although some do get jammed, hopefully unintentional.
But it's not over there. The Helper in IPO attacks the dog driving into him with stick hits. Good helpers work the dog hard while driving into them. 

UFC is more real than K1 (Just kidding),maybe


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen

It is good to conclude that "our" dogs are not wanted/needed "overseas". They can't add anything.....
That confirms my opinion better not to sell overseas.. (for that, I must say. I'm more holding on to that opinion then Selena. Maybe age is counting there...) 

When I'm softening up and get weak, I will read this topict back.

For me end of story.....

Dick


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> It is good to conclude that "our" dogs are not wanted/needed "overseas". They can't add anything.....
> That confirms my opinion better not to sell overseas.. (for that, I must say. I'm more holding on to that opinion then Selena. Maybe age is counting there...)
> 
> When I'm softening up and get weak, I will read this topict back.
> 
> For me end of story.....
> 
> Dick


Dick I'm not really speaking of your dogs in particular. I understand you are breeding tough dogs and a certain kind of dog, but I'm trying to get the point across that there are some very real dogs in other sports and other pedigreed breeds. I know you have a lot of knowledge and experience and I do respect it. Of coarse I believe if your breeding for that type of dog then it's more likely you'll have more of those in a litter but again there are those type of dogs in some pedigreed GSD, Malinois, Dutchies. I understand that it is less common in many average litters! As for KNPV, I do like it but it's still a sport since sport dogs can pass!


----------



## Megan Bays

Timothy Stacy said:


> Dick I'm not really speaking of your dogs in particular. I understand you are breeding tough dogs and a certain kind of dog, but I'm trying to get the point across that there are some very real dogs in other sports and other pedigreed breeds.


I think everyone agrees with this.

I'm really disappointed that this thread has turned into what it is.

I have very little knowledge about puppy development, and would love to expand on it. I'd love to learn about the differences and similarites in working dog development regardless of the sport. 

It's shame that this is a 17 page thread about bs and not the OT.


----------



## Gillian Schuler

All I can say is, with a healthy, athletic, alert and willing to do everything pup, the doors are open to you.....

Good nerves round up the picture.without these. the dpg is nothing!!


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Our helper stood also like a statue and the dogs were able to get a bite or not. The first time my pooch went for him at speed, he missed and the decoy said " boy, if you come in so fast, you need to focus fast".

The second try worked.

What's wrong with this?


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen

Steven Lepic said:


> Here is what I've distilled from all this.
> 
> Correct me where I'm wrong.
> 
> The grip is not judged in KNPV. Therefore:
> 
> - If one can fairly generalize, despite the lack of judging of it, the grips in _KNPV are currently still good...._right? Good enough to not make as big of a deal over it as the Belgian...or whoever.
> 
> -The grip in KNPV _can't be judged anyway_ due to the nature of the exercises and suit.
> 
> Yet, Selena brought up that the _grip should be part of the judging criteria._
> 
> That contradicts the first two points though, right? Why fix it if it isn't broken? And why change those things which make the grip undjudgeable to begin with? Those sound like a significant change to the program.
> 
> Additionally, KNPV is not supposed to be a sport. It is geared towards producing dogs for the street. The dog is judged and given points based on proficiency in the exercises which relate to street performance. Strictly in terms of that which the dog physically does, where does one make the distinction? The fact that the human does not intend to sell the dog after the trial/certification? If the same exactly exercises were oranized into a program in the United States, let's say, and people repeatedly trialed the dogs instead of selling them....then would it be a sport?
> 
> A NVBK dog, which Selena mentioned, scores high...and yet she doesn't consider it street worthy. Fine.
> 
> Isn't that the same exact thing which can be said for any given dog in any of the other programs? At least that's what the humans say. However, the dogs still acclimatize to patterns and equipment....not unlike the "sports".
> 
> So we're back to breeders having an eye which is more critical than what points in the program indicates.
> 
> Unpapered dogs.
> 
> Why would they be unpapered?
> 
> -Degrees of linebreeding which the FCI frowns upon....?
> 
> - Mixing of different registered breeds.
> 
> Why in the world would there be mixing of different breeds?
> 
> We're back to choosing the appropriate individual dog again from various training venues with significantly overlapping criteria, right?
> 
> As far as the Van Leeuwen breeding program; it sounds like those dogs aren't neccesarily reprentative of KNPV dogs in general. That is, if Holland is exporting thousands of dogs to thousands of new handlers, and yet the Van Leeuwen dogs have to be specially placed...well...that makes it hard to talk about the KNPV program in general, if we're using Dick and Selena's dogs as fair representatives. Which it doesn't sound like they are...it sounds like their personal preferences far exceeds the requisite average.
> 
> Which brings us back to the invidividual breeders with their critical eye which transcends mere points, and the individual dogs...in any venue.
> 
> ...right?


yeah that's kind of it, I suppose. Oh I was talking indeed my/our opinion, my/our opinion what a policedog should be, my/our dogs & breeding program.

And yes, too bad, KNPV is getting a sport more and more. It wasn't meant to be, but it became such.


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Steven Lepic said:


> Here is what I've distilled from all this.
> 
> Correct me where I'm wrong.
> 
> The grip is not judged in KNPV. Therefore:
> 
> - If one can fairly generalize, despite the lack of judging of it, the grips in _KNPV are currently still good...._right? Good enough to not make as big of a deal over it as the Belgian...or whoever.
> 
> -The grip in KNPV _can't be judged anyway_ due to the nature of the exercises and suit.
> 
> Yet, Selena brought up that the _grip should be part of the judging criteria._
> 
> That contradicts the first two points though, right? Why fix it if it isn't broken? And why change those things which make the grip undjudgeable to begin with? Those sound like a significant change to the program.
> 
> Additionally, KNPV is not supposed to be a sport. It is geared towards producing dogs for the street. The dog is judged and given points based on proficiency in the exercises which relate to street performance. Strictly in terms of that which the dog physically does, where does one make the distinction? The fact that the human does not intend to sell the dog after the trial/certification? If the same exactly exercises were oranized into a program in the United States, let's say, and people repeatedly trialed the dogs instead of selling them....then would it be a sport?
> 
> A NVBK dog, which Selena mentioned, scores high...and yet she doesn't consider it street worthy. Fine.
> 
> Isn't that the same exact thing which can be said for any given dog in any of the other programs? At least that's what the humans say. However, the dogs still acclimatize to patterns and equipment....not unlike the "sports".
> 
> So we're back to breeders having an eye which is more critical than what points in the program indicates.
> 
> Unpapered dogs.
> 
> Why would they be unpapered?
> 
> -Degrees of linebreeding which the FCI frowns upon....?
> 
> - Mixing of different registered breeds.
> 
> Why in the world would there be mixing of different breeds?
> 
> We're back to choosing the appropriate individual dog again from various training venues with significantly overlapping criteria, right?
> 
> As far as the Van Leeuwen breeding program; it sounds like those dogs aren't neccesarily reprentative of KNPV dogs in general. That is, if Holland is exporting thousands of dogs to thousands of new handlers, and yet the Van Leeuwen dogs have to be specially placed...well...that makes it hard to talk about the KNPV program in general, if we're using Dick and Selena's dogs as fair representatives. Which it doesn't sound like they are...it sounds like their personal preferences far exceeds the requisite average.
> 
> Which brings us back to the invidividual breeders with their critical eye which transcends mere points, and the individual dogs...in any venue.
> 
> ...right?


Very interesting post that probably won't be answered in full.

I'm digesting it at the moment:|


----------



## Guest

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> yeah that's kind of it, I suppose. Oh I was talking indeed my/our opinion, my/our opinion what a policedog should be, my/our dogs & breeding program.
> 
> And yes, too bad, KNPV is getting a sport more and more. It wasn't meant to be, but it became such.


My conclusion to all this is to give extreme credit to the KNPV for being so practical and aherent to the actual bottom-line of service animals irrespective of origin; and certainly credit to people like the Van Leeuwens who make even fewer compromises about what to breed and where to place. 

I'm trying to make sense of this for myself, you see, and determine what's responsible for what. 

The impression I get from Chris Jones is that something about the routine is more real. Well, the points-dogs just blew that out of the water.

No, the "reality" lies in the critical eye and integrity of the invidividual breeders. 

Is Schutzhund (show dogs) not the perfect example of what a joke a training program/breed test COULD be? Yet...the working lines people still associate with the same sport, but _take it upon themselves to make different descisions about breeding criteria_...obviously.


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Steven Lepic said:


> My conclusion to all this is to give extreme credit to the KNPV for being so practical and aherent to the actual bottom-line of service animals; and certainly credit to people like the Van Leeuwens who make even fewer compromises about what to breed and where to place.
> 
> I'm trying to make sense of this for myself, you see, and determine what's responsible for what.
> 
> The impression I get from Chris Jones is that something about the routine is more real. Well, the points-dogs just blew that out of the water.
> 
> No, the "reality" lies in the critical eye and integrity of the breeders.
> 
> Is Schutzhund (show dogs) not the perfect example of what a joke a training program/breed test COULD be? Yet...good breeders are still making the hard choices and breeding the right dogs and putting them to work in real life.....but the choice is DEFINATELY NOT on the trial field.



Well said on both posts!


----------



## Gillian Schuler

_No, the "reality" lies in the critical eye and integrity of the invidividual breeders._

That's the amswer. be it SV or RSV-2000.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: It is good to conclude that "our" dogs are not wanted/needed "overseas". They can't add anything.....
That confirms my opinion better not to sell overseas.. (for that, I must say. I'm more holding on to that opinion then Selena. Maybe age is counting there...) 

When I'm softening up and get weak, I will read this topict back.

For me end of story.....

Dick



Dammit, you get too mad to quick. It is not always hate hate hate, sometimes it is YEARS of peoples disinformation that WE have to sift through. There is no clean slate.

Dog brokers are pretty much scum here in the states. They will feed you a line of shit.

Cops FOR YEARS, in my experience fed us unbelievable amounts of shit about the KNPV trained dogs. I expected a 180 lb dog that when angry burned like the sun.

Now there is video. Now, just now after all the years of shit talking and trying to sort out the reality of it, there is a bit of light, because I can actually get on a computer and a half a world away I can ask you a question.

AND THEN YOU GET MAD.

When you come back to read the post, read this one as well. Most dog people here cannot afford to go to EU and visit. Look at the posts that so many people make, they know next to nothing, like the little mushroom, kept in the dark and fed shit.

Just gotta figure that for me, after all the years of disinformation, I am going to have questions.

I do wonder how much is the difference in training. Environment plays a huge part in what a pup turns out to be like.

The other thing is it would be fun to own a fire breathing dog, but here, if your dog licks a childs face and it falls down....problems.


If the child is pulling on the dogs whatever, and the dog has had it, the child is not punished, the dog is.

THis will come your way soon. The kid trys to kick your dog, and the dog moves out of the way, and the kid falls and starts screaming, and everyone looks at you and your dog immediatley as killers, even thought they have been around the dog for all it's 8 years because this spoiled rotten shit of a kid, (who is 15 right now and soon to die in a car crash) got mad because he was unable to kick your dog.


----------



## Gerry Grimwood

Timothy Stacy said:


> So then you asked me later to explain in my own words why the IPO courage test is better and who is being worked harder.
> 
> Of coarse I'm talking about Good Working lines with good helpers, just so you don't go back to the show dog rubbish.
> Here we go. In both sports the dog is running down the field at a screaming Helper/Decoy.
> 
> In KNPV the dog runs down the field and jumps at the armpit(the spot he was trained to) biting the "EQUIPMENT"The Dogs I saw in the videos never got hit across the head.
> 
> IPO- Same scenario dog running down field at approaching decoy who screams. Targeted to his EQUIPMENT he bites it.
> 
> So all the threat comes before the bite, correct? Once the dog bites, assuming both do bite comes the next part.
> 
> After the bite!
> The KNPV decoy stands like staue and the high drive dogs we are dealing with slams into him without recoiling. Dogs can get severly hurt here doing it's job!The decoy then proceeds to move 3 or 4 steps and wait for the out.
> 
> In IPO the dog is swung as you said gently trying the best not to hurt the dog! I appreciate that! Although some do get jammed, hopefully unintentional.
> But it's not over there. The Helper in IPO attacks the dog driving into him with stick hits. Good helpers work the dog hard while driving into them.


If you really believe this to be true then tell me, Why are Police Dept's and Military buying dogs that aren't from IPO or Schutzund backgrounds ?? They are all sport dogs right ? why don't they just buy an IPO3 dog and be done with it ??

"The Dogs I saw in the videos never got hit across the head." getting hit in the head with a noodle doesn't hurt much :razz:


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Gerry Grimwood said:


> If you really believe this to be true then tell me, Why are Police Dept's and Military buying dogs that aren't from IPO or Schutzund backgrounds ?? They are all sport dogs right ? why don't they just buy an IPO3 dog and be done with it ??
> 
> "The Dogs I saw in the videos never got hit across the head." getting hit in the head with a noodle doesn't hurt much :razz:


Because they aren't for sale in most cases and like we said some IPO dogs might have the aggression but IPO people usually don't sell there dogs like KNPV people do. 

--Quote-- The Dogs I saw in the videos never got hit across the head." getting hit in the head with a noodle doesn't hurt much :razz:[/quote]

I agree!!

It's just my opinion. I like how they work a Schutzhund/ IPO dog better in the courage test. There is no glory in hurting a dog because the the decoy in KNPV won't absorb the blow. A KNPV dog that jumps from 6 feet out to strike the decoy is already committed in my opinion. Why not have the decoy absorb the blow by turning with the dog? We know many dogs get hurt like this. Why not spare a dog the agony of a spine, neck, or broken rib injury? Just my opinion.


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Timothy Stacy said:


> Because they aren't for sale in most cases and like we said some IPO dogs might have the aggression but IPO people usually don't sell there dogs like KNPV people do.
> 
> --Quote-- The Dogs I saw in the videos never got hit across the head." getting hit in the head with a noodle doesn't hurt much :razz:



Let me clarify that. There are good deocys in KNPV who do try to absorb the impact. I guess some dogs make it hard to absorb the blow when they hit the guy more in the chest area. Probably more of a targeting issue!So I guess it depends on the person in the suit and the dog. Just as it does in IPO with the guy with the sleeve!


----------



## Gerry Grimwood

Timothy Stacy said:


> Because they aren't for sale in most cases and like we said some IPO dogs might have the aggression but IPO people usually don't sell there dogs like KNPV people do.
> 
> *bullshit, there are more sch/ipo dogs for sale than viagra.*
> 
> --Quote-- The Dogs I saw in the videos never got hit across the head." getting hit in the head with a noodle doesn't hurt much :razz:
> 
> *I think you misunderstood this sentence, I was referring to a padded sch/ipo stick*


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Yeah sometimes top competitors sell dogs because they can't compete with on a national level or whatever the reason.
I would imagine there are more IPO dogs for sale anyhow since the sport is just a tad bit bigger than KNPV!

Sometimes they are suitable for Police work sometimes there not.


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Yeah sometimes top competitors sell dogs because they can't compete with that dog on a national level or whatever the reason.
I would imagine there are more IPO dogs for sale anyhow since the sport is just a tad bit bigger than KNPV!

Sometimes they are suitable for Police work sometimes there not. 
Sometimes KNPV dogs are suitable, sometimes there not.
Some people like a serious dog in IPO also and don't care that they can't compete nationally with it. Some don't like that dog and they sell it as a very serious dog!!

Getting a little monotonous wouldn't you say!
"The Dogs I saw in the videos never got hit across the head." This goes back to KNPV anyhow.


----------



## Gerry Grimwood

Timothy Stacy said:


> Getting a little monotonous wouldn't you say!


I agree, you seem to be on a mission to prove you're better than these people.

I've been trying to learn all I can about KNPV via the internet for almost 4 yrs now, all I can come up with is that you can't learn much by reading on the internet and watching videos.


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I agree, you seem to be on a mission to prove you're better than these people.
> 
> By no means do I say I'm better than Dick. In fact not even close!
> 
> Come on! I was on a mission defending Schutzhund/IPO and saying that KNPV is a sport, and saying the equipment has nothing to do with it.Eventually we all agreed upon that. The topic really was steered off coarse in the 1st page.
> 
> The conversation steered off topic several times later. I admit I got a little brash at some points and I went into drive:twisted: . Then we agreed that Selena and Dick are breeding more than just a KNPV dog(a ligitamite street dog) I agreed there dogs are special from what I here. We also agreed eventually that some serious dogs come out of all venues.
> 
> I really think Steve summed up perfect in his last 2 post.
> 
> It seemed it was over after that...but
> 
> --Quote-- I've been trying to learn all I can about KNPV via the internet for almost 4 yrs now, all I can come up with is that you can't learn much by reading on the internet and watching videos.
> 
> Good place to do it. Sorry for my part in disrupting it.


----------



## Christopher Jones

Timothy Stacy said:


> I was on a mission defending Schutzhund/IPO and *saying that KNPV is a sport *


Ok, thats where I got confused, I had read on your website when refering to your Dutch Female Mali that "HER FATHER PASSED THE DUTCH POLICE TEST (KNPV) WITH HONORS" 
I guess its a Police dog test when your advertising your own dogs.


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Christopher Jones said:


> Ok, thats where I got confused, I had read on your website when refering to your Dutch Female Mali that "HER FATHER PASSED THE DUTCH POLICE TEST (KNPV) WITH HONORS"
> I guess its a Police dog test when your advertising your own dogs.


It still is considered the Dutch Police test right? Does that make her a Police dog? Absolutely not!

We have been through this! So should I change it to Dutch Police Sport now that we have settled on it being a sport?
Ok since the criteria is http://www.bloedlijnen.nl/ look up what it says about him. Aha van Joefarm


----------



## Christopher Jones

Steven Lepic said:


> The impression I get from Chris Jones is that something about the routine is more real. Well, the points-dogs just blew that out of the water.


Well no. Here is exactly what I mean, regardless of your interpretation. 
Firstly, the vast majority of KNPV trainers believe they are training dogs for police work. I guess thats quite resonable considering its has "police dog" in its title. By way of contrast the vast majority of IPO members do not believe they are training their dogs to be Police dogs. You just have to hear all the political talk we do in IPO "Our dogs are not biting the man, only a padded sleeve. Its not real, they arnt attack dogs like those dogs biting full suits".
So straight away you have a different mind set in the KNPV compared to IPO. Mind sets create culture.
Secondly, where do the vast majority of KNPV dogs sold go? They go to Police all around the world. The same is not true of IPO.
Thirdly, I showed the example of how the some of the top NVBK trainers train the exact same exercise, find and guard. The NVBK guys use the decoy with a tug as the reward. This is sport training, unless you think otherwise. I have never seen or heard of this in the KNPV, they always use the decoy as the reward.
Of course sport dogs can get through the system. Of course there are sport dogs in the system. Of course there are real dogs in IPO. I cant see where someone says otherwise. Is KNPV a dog sport? Yes it is. Is it a dog sport that puts out dogs doing different exercises and having a different grounding than IPO? Yes. Same is said of FR and NVBK.
We all use genralisations in the dog world. We can say that German Shepherds are a better option than Dobermans for Police. That doesnt mean that there isnt Dobies that could kick the average Police GSD's arse. We say that Malinois have better hips than GSD's, but I can show you a Mali with HD and a GSD that is OFA excellent. But these exceptions dont change the rule. And the reality is that far more KNPV dogs are going to be suitable for Police than IPO dogs. 
If you think otherwise, thats just fine and dandy. We dont have to agree. You keep doing what your doing, IPO will keep doing what it will be doing and KNPV will also. 
Everyones a winner.


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## Timothy Stacy

Christopher Jones said:


> Well no. Here is exactly what I mean, regardless of your interpretation.
> Firstly, the vast majority of KNPV trainers believe they are training dogs for police work. I guess thats quite resonable considering its has "police dog" in its title. By way of contrast the vast majority of IPO members do not believe they are training their dogs to be Police dogs. You just have to hear all the political talk we do in IPO "Our dogs are not biting the man, only a padded sleeve. Its not real, they arnt attack dogs like those dogs biting full suits".
> So straight away you have a different mind set in the KNPV compared to IPO. Mind sets create culture.
> Secondly, where do the vast majority of KNPV dogs sold go? They go to Police all around the world. The same is not true of IPO.
> Thirdly, I showed the example of how the some of the top NVBK trainers train the exact same exercise, find and guard. The NVBK guys use the decoy with a tug as the reward. This is sport training, unless you think otherwise. I have never seen or heard of this in the KNPV, they always use the decoy as the reward.
> Of course sport dogs can get through the system. Of course there are sport dogs in the system. Of course there are real dogs in IPO. I cant see where someone says otherwise.
> We all use genralisations in the dog world. We can say that German Shepherds are a better option than Dobermans for Police. That doesnt mean that there isnt Dobies that could kick the average Police GSD's arse. We say that Malinois have better hips than GSD's, but I can show you a Mali with HD and a GSD that is OFA excellent. But these exceptions dont change the rule. And the reality is that far more KNPV dogs are going to be suitable for Police than IPO dogs.
> If you think otherwise, thats just fine and dandy. We dont have to agree. You keep doing what your doing, IPO will keep doing what it will be doing and KNPV will also.
> Everyones a winner.


I'd have to say that you are exactly right. All I said was there are SOME dogs that can do Police work from all venues, which you said above yourself. Is it a fact that more come from KNPV, Yes Yes Yes. .


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## Timothy Stacy

I really didn't even get totally through your last 2 posts entirely. I'm just wore out with the confusion. To much gets lost in interpretation.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Dammit, you get too mad to quick. It is not always hate hate hate, sometimes it is YEARS of peoples disinformation that WE have to sift through. There is no clean slate.
> 
> Dog brokers are pretty much scum here in the states. They will feed you a line of shit.
> 
> Cops FOR YEARS, in my experience fed us unbelievable amounts of shit about the KNPV trained dogs. I expected a 180 lb dog that when angry burned like the sun.
> 
> Now there is video. Now, just now after all the years of shit talking and trying to sort out the reality of it, there is a bit of light, because I can actually get on a computer and a half a world away I can ask you a question.
> 
> AND THEN YOU GET MAD.
> 
> When you come back to read the post, read this one as well. Most dog people here cannot afford to go to EU and visit. Look at the posts that so many people make, they know next to nothing, like the little mushroom, kept in the dark and fed shit.
> 
> Just gotta figure that for me, after all the years of disinformation, I am going to have questions.
> 
> I do wonder how much is the difference in training. Environment plays a huge part in what a pup turns out to be like.
> 
> The other thing is it would be fun to own a fire breathing dog, but here, if your dog licks a childs face and it falls down....problems.
> 
> 
> If the child is pulling on the dogs whatever, and the dog has had it, the child is not punished, the dog is.
> 
> THis will come your way soon. The kid trys to kick your dog, and the dog moves out of the way, and the kid falls and starts screaming, and everyone looks at you and your dog immediatley as killers, even thought they have been around the dog for all it's 8 years because this spoiled rotten shit of a kid, (who is 15 right now and soon to die in a car crash) got mad because he was unable to kick your dog.


I hear what you're saying, Jeff. You are right. Temperment, fightingspirit?? those are in your genes, huh.... (you know all about it.. ;-) ) Maybe thats the reason we are breeding what we are breeding.....:-k

I get frustrated because I'm willing to exchange info, without holding back and come across an opinion from people who do not no much or anything about the subject.(KNPV) 
They build their opinion based on incidents. My experience lies in Sch.h (there was no IPO yet then)., KNPV and working policedogs (because I was a K9 handler and now, since 1988 am K9-instructor) 

I do not now much about FR, Mondio then seeing some videos. BR we know some more because seeing BR contests, some training ( some of our ofspring is in BR). You never saw me have an opinion about that..
Who am I to have a structured opinion about that, not realy knowing enough about. I respect all "dogsports" and the people training.
I would just like "that favor to be returned"....:roll: 

I'm very much about respect.... That is maybe the problem. I automaticly expect that in return.....

When people come to me, wanting them to help with a (training)problem or want to gain knowledge, I'm always open for giving that help or knowledge unlessss;

They start their sectence with; "Yes, but...". Then I experience they mostly want to discus for having a discusion and are not open minded for gaining knowledge.

For me, maybe I'm not the right person for this sort of "forum-thing", because its all about "words" and nothing can be showed/made visual.
Its more Selena's thing. She is much more patient then I am for that matter.

With the brookers you should still be carefull. Still the weaker dogs/problem-dogs are sent over. Only people with the right contacts, like Mike Suttle for instance, can buy the good (adult) dogs over here.

Nice reply Jeff, I apriciate it. I certainly know you understand my feelings about this subject.

Dick


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## Erik Berg

Why has the KNPV evolved more into a sport where sleeve/suithappy dogs can do well? I mean, that´s understandable in other sports that you do for fun or competition, but those people doing KNPV are still doing it for the goal of selling the finished dogs to police/military, or are many doing it just to get a title on the dogs to get breedings more easily on their breedingdogs?

About handleraggresion and social dogs, does a strong dog really need to be looking for a fight with every friendly person it meets, does a social dog makes it somehow a lesser dog for real bitework? I have no problem with some people prefer this type of dog but what qualities does that type of dog add that a more social dog lacks or can´t do just as good?


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## Timothy Stacy

Christopher Jones said:


> Ok, thats where I got confused, I had read on your website when refering to your Dutch Female Mali that "HER FATHER PASSED THE DUTCH POLICE TEST (KNPV) WITH HONORS"
> I guess its a Police dog test when your advertising your own dogs.


Real admirable for you to steer off this discussion forum to try and dig dirt up on me.


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## R Janssen

@Erik, i will give it a "try" to explain.

If you have a KNPV certified dog you normally have a fine patrol dog.
The standard of the KNPV program has always been very high, 
So you need to put all this into prospective.

However there are (like Dick mention's) some dogs that we qualify as "sport dogs"
That doesn't mean they are bad dogs!, 
simply means that they are not *as *good for real street work as the proven street lines.
(For example the line Dick himself breeds, and he knows exactly what he needs)
That "sport dog" will surely bite for real, but will not go to the same extreme. 

The KNPV is a Police Dog Certification program, that means you get a *legal *document that your dog can start as a police or security dog.
Call it whatever you want, it only needs to have a name right.?

We personally sell the dog as a "reward" for him, he has proven himself wordy for the task, and now he gets to do the real job.
Again maybe something that isn't easy to understand for most people...
KNPV breeding is not like general Schutzhund breeding (for example).
Its all about performance, point's, FCI ed are secondary to that.
Take Barry II from Bertje Lamers (now sold to Marco Janssen, btw) isn't even certified but is heavily bred at the moment.
Why.? if you don't know the answer to that question by now, i can't explain it to you... :sad:

And i agree, best post of this topic is that of Xavier Neme.

@Timothy, please don't replay on this, I'm not planning to respond anymore...


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## Selena van Leeuwen

I think there is a misunderstanding here, even if a dog has his KNPV certificate, to work as a policedog (sniff or patroldog we don't have dual purpose dogs due legal matters/law) it has to do an additional certificate. 
Also there is a misunderstanding between what we mean by "police dog from nature". Dick also has bought the more "sporty" dog (eg Marco where Ellen is referring to, doing good btw goes for his surveillance certificate in May), 'cause not every handler can work the dog we/Dick prefer.

@ jeff: your example with the dog and child is a good one. For us, personally, the dogs and about everybody except ourselves, is a no-no. If Dennis is little bit older, he is taught to leave the doggies alone, just like I and Dick's older children did...my dad always told me: "if you got bitten, you get an a$$whooping for being to close to the dogs". Don't think he would have done it, but automatically I still will always pass a strange dog on a safe distance  

There is litter born her yesterday evening/night, for the original topic purposes, I try to make some video footage regurarly, so get an idea how we do it (one of the females is staying here).


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## Barrie Kirkland

> The KNPV is a Police Dog Certification program, that means you get a *legal *document that your dog can start as a police or security dog.
> Call it whatever you want, it only needs to have a name right.?


i think its a good system and envy Holland for what they have created


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## mike suttle

Selena van Leeuwen;117940
With the brookers you should still be carefull. Still the weaker dogs/problem-dogs are sent over. Only people with the right contacts said:


> Thank you very much Dick, I really appreciate that. We are really trying hard to bring the right dogs over here to improve on what is currently available in America.


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## Bob Scott

I would personelly like to thank Jeff :-o REALLY...JEFF  ....for his explination and request to Dick. 
I would also like to personelly thank Dick for understanding the shortcommings of the web and "some" of the people on it. It's a world without emotion and full of "experts" that may or may not have ever trained a dog much less on a world class level such as Dick has.
We here at WDF hold his expertise in very high regard and would hate to see him stop with his advice based on many years of dog work.


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## Timothy Stacy

Since everyone is making there final conclusion! Here's mine!Without quoting anybody just stating my opinion!

One can relatively be suspicious of any KNPV titled dog being sold as a *real *Police dog for the reasons stated throughout this thread. In most cases we never know because the majority of dogs never gets a real bite anyhow. 

Since nobody answered my question about Wolf Dupae I'll say this. It strikes me as odd that some KNPV breeders are looking to the NVBK dogs for realness since KNPV people are the only ones breeding for Police dogs, right.

With that said, I could be relatively certain that you can take any titled Belgian Ring dog directly from his kennel and he would bite in every single exercise in the Knpv routine(not in the armpit of coarse). 
- gun/prey bite- no problem
-bike/ prey bite- no problem
-Courage test- I don't think the yelling and stick raised is going to do it either.
-escape/escort- no
object guard- obviosly not and even with the muzzle on

I'd venture to say that you couldn't do the same with a KNPV titled dog.
- Enviornmental stress,
-stop attacks while the decoy is* in the same biting posture* provoking the dog to bite.Not like in KNPV where the dog is qued by the picture of the decoy putting his hands in the cuff. Yes the dog actually has to be under control in the Ring. Like a good Police dog should be IMO.
-Outs while the decoy is still provoking.-?
-Agility ?
-etc, etc ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzV6VkYcHFg&feature=related

No wonder KNPV breeders are looking to NVBK dogs. They can do that sopiticated of work and still maintain there composure with their handler. Something to be said for that! 

Lastly, I know GSD breeder' here in the states that breed for the agression, not the high points dog but they like the serious dog so they breed that way. So not all IPO breeders are breeding to be top competitors either!!!


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## Sam Bishop

Selena and Dick, I would love to see any videos you could post of puppy development with any explanation you could give. I want to improve on my (lack) of ability to build drive and bite quality in my dog - but I like to see it along with an explanation of the theory behind it - just the theory isn't always enough. I would like to learn more - maybe you could just get someone to follow you around with a camera at all times 
Sam


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## Erik Berg

Timothy Stacy said:


> Since nobody answered my question about Wolf Dupae I'll say this. It strikes me as odd that some KNPV breeders are looking to the NVBK dogs for realness since KNPV people are the only ones breeding for Police dogs, right.


Of course KNPV-breeders aren´t the only one breeding for dogs that can do more than just sports. It seems holland is quite similar to other countries, some breeds more sporty dogs that can do both sport and policework, some more intressted in the dogs sportperformance foremost and some breeding dogs for their own taste and demands, like dick and selena. I suppose it´s the same in KNPV like other sports but maybe not in the same degree, some dogs do not have the character for different reasons to become good policedogs(too soft, nerveissues, lacks courage and so on) but do a nice routine on the sportfield.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

When I was a kid, I always wanted a Dragon. A little unrealistic, but "I" thought it would be cool.

I have had a few dogs over the years that I knew without a doubt that they would lay it on the line. I do not care why they were that way, but they were, and it was a good feeling.

They would fight a man until they stroked out. I do not see to many of these dogs anymore, and I see the bar being lowered because people are too ****ing dumb to handle them, and I get a bit sick in the head about it.

I posted some video a while back of a dog named Sarco that I thought was quite a dog. All I got in response was how awful the dog looked in OB and what an ass the handler must be.

It never occured to them that this dog is a fire breather. I do not like "balanced" dogs. I like dogs that bring it. 

I am no longer breeding dogs, but I wonder if there would be a place to put the dogs I would want to produce in this country. I have never wanted to give a dog that in that rare time of need, true need, would go curr and run off.

The dogs that do this are not balanced. They lean heavy to the bitework, and will tell you to go **** yourself if you decide to lay a heavy hand on them.

I will always be grateful to those out there that are keeping the Dragons alive and well.


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## kristin tresidder

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> There is litter born her yesterday evening/night, for the original topic purposes, I try to make some video footage regurarly, so get an idea how we do it (one of the females is staying here).



i would like to see those videos, not only would it be very educational, it might also help start this (once) high-potential thread back on topic...


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## kamphuis gerben

hello,everybody 
ok its getting now to a discussion were its hitting no land or water 
very easy i have respect for ipo ,knpv mondioring 
all programs need a dog who,s suitable for the program 
howether i think all lines knpv ,ipo have develop into the lines are best suitable for the program 
ipo you need this not more,knpv you need everything and maybe more 
iam not intesrested at all in knpv ,ipo ,or whatever 
i just want a dog who can do it all 
whith no compramizing 
i found it in the knpv lines i use 
you can use them knpv,ipo or whatever you weant that maded it intersesting for me 
greetings and respect to all off you
gerben


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## Daryl Ehret

Gerben, would you apply that same idea _with breeds_, rather than venues? ;-)


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## James Downey

A friend of mine went to a KNPV championship in Holland...They claimed the dogs got to return the car after every evolution.

Is this true? Seems like a lot could be done in between evolutions to aid the dog.

They went with the expectation they were going to see something magnificant and came back very disenchanted with KNPV.

There seems to be an awfuly high number of dogs that recieve a perfect score. which seems a bit odd if it isthat diffcult

There is some speculation that this maybe due to the fact that a lot of these dogs are sold after recieveing thier KNPV Cert. Which could yeild a higher profit....By selling the dogs to people easily impressed by such a Cert and Score....Again I am not stating this is true...Just that the rumor mill has produced this speculation.

A friend of mine just got rid of a KNPV certified dog that was not very impressive. 

I also have been looking a lot videos....I am not seeing these monsters everyone is claiming KNPV is producing. I did see some....but there are alot some mediocre dogs recieveing perfect scores. A lot of dogs working out of medium drive prey too. Actually it was a bit tough to find a dog that really turned on when the decoy fought or thrashed. Also the barking looks very sporty...


I also am not seeing this HUGE pressure the dog must face. Most of the attacks are the decoy moving away from the dog with thier back turned. Then just dragging the dog along. I had a Beagle growing up that would bite someone riding a bike....So the jury is out on how diffcult that is. 

I guess what I am saying....Is I do not think the dogs are that much different...if at all. 

And a friend posted this somewhere else. But it's worth a look. 

A mediocre dog....getting a perfect score.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvl7C8gxZNo


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## Gerry Grimwood

James Downey said:


> A friend of mine went to a KNPV championship in Holland...
> 
> 
> A friend of mine just got rid of a KNPV certified dog that was not very impressive.
> 
> I also have been looking a lot videos....
> 
> A mediocre dog....getting a perfect score. (*that's a GSD James*)
> [URL]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvl7C8gxZNo[/URL]


I've got a friend that says your friend is full of it.


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## Gillian Schuler

Gerry,

I think you left the (sh) out of the equation:lol:


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## James Downey

Nope, I do not think she is full of it....she said the dog's literally were being coached prior to the call off, that it was in fact going to be the call off. 

I trust her. She has good name in dog sport, serves on commitees, represented a world team, and is respected. she had no reason to lie, and prior to this...bought into the hype.

I think KNPV has it's flaws....and myths, one of them being that the sport produces better dogs...I got news....Dogs make dogs...not sports. 

I think KNPV has a dirty little secret....And that secret is People (especially Americans) are wowed by KNPV certs...and are willing to buy dogs with KNPV certs (as my friend whom just a sold a shitter with a KNPV cert on it) So, there maybe a little fudging of the numbers and little "promotion" of the sport that is a bit exgerrated.

so people

"don't believe the hype" especially when the entities selling the Hype stand to finacially gain from the promotion.

There just dogs and KNPV is not impossible. Actually it's quite possible for a very sporty dog to do well at KNPV. Like I said in another thread...it's all sport until they really shoot at the dog.


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## mike suttle

James Downey said:


> A friend of mine went to a KNPV championship in Holland...They claimed the dogs got to return the car after every evolution.
> 
> Is this true? Seems like a lot could be done in between evolutions to aid the dog.
> 
> They went with the expectation they were going to see something magnificant and came back very disenchanted with KNPV.
> 
> There seems to be an awfuly high number of dogs that recieve a perfect score. which seems a bit odd if it isthat diffcult
> 
> There is some speculation that this maybe due to the fact that a lot of these dogs are sold after recieveing thier KNPV Cert. Which could yeild a higher profit....By selling the dogs to people easily impressed by such a Cert and Score....Again I am not stating this is true...Just that the rumor mill has produced this speculation.
> 
> A friend of mine just got rid of a KNPV certified dog that was not very impressive.
> 
> I also have been looking a lot videos....I am not seeing these monsters everyone is claiming KNPV is producing. I did see some....but there are alot some mediocre dogs recieveing perfect scores. A lot of dogs working out of medium drive prey too. Actually it was a bit tough to find a dog that really turned on when the decoy fought or thrashed. Also the barking looks very sporty...
> 
> 
> I also am not seeing this HUGE pressure the dog must face. Most of the attacks are the decoy moving away from the dog with thier back turned. Then just dragging the dog along. I had a Beagle growing up that would bite someone riding a bike....So the jury is out on how diffcult that is.
> 
> I guess what I am saying....Is I do not think the dogs are that much different...if at all.
> 
> And a friend posted this somewhere else. But it's worth a look.
> 
> A mediocre dog....getting a perfect score.
> [URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvl7C8gxZNo"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvl7C8gxZNo[/URL]


Here is my 2 cents worth of contribution to this topic:
Yes, it is true that the dogs can return to the car between some of the excercises.........how is this different than SchH? I dont know about you, but every time I have trialed a dog in SchH I tracked for about 10 minutes, then put the dog in the car for a while. I did OB for about 10 minutes, then put the dog in the car for a while, then I did my 10 minutes worth of bitework and I was done.
I can tell you that I could run several dogs through a complete SchH 3 routine in the time it takes to complete the entire KNPV trial program with one dog.
The topic here was supposed to be about puppy development for the 2 sports, not bashing any sport.
But while we are on that subject I will continue by addding this.
You mentioned that you have seen some KNPV dogs that were not great dogs.......please tell me how this differs from SchH? As most of you know we bring in alot of dogs every year through our kennel. I can tell you that in all of my trips testing dogs I have seen shitters come from every training discipline, from every country, from every breed. But if you want to know the truth, I have seen far more shitters come from SchH backgrounds than from KNPV. 
I have found this to be true, and perhaps it is hard to understand this by simply watching a KNPV trial, maybe one must train for the sport for a while to fully understand it, but here is the bottom line.
The amount of training and stress put on a KNPV dog in preparation for the certificate is far more than what is required for SchH. There are far more excercises and the testing is much more difficult. 
We will be hosting a KNPV seminar here at our kennel this year with Gerben Kamphuis. That would be a great opportunity to come out and learn the difference in the two disciplines without flying to Holland to see it.
It would take me hours to try to explain my thoughts about the KNPV program and the dogs required to work in it. I know the end result often does not look flashy, but if you would see the thousands of hours put into training, the stress on the dogs, and the two years of preparation to get the dog ready, then you would be amazed that the dog still has anything left at the end. 
There are something like 85 different excercises in the complete KNPV routine. Compare that to SchH.


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## Daryl Ehret

Mike, could you estimate what percentage of knpv participants are gsd's? I've always guessed maybe 3-5%, but I don't really know.


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## mike suttle

Daryl Ehret said:


> Mike, could you estimate what percentage of knpv participants are gsd's? I've always guessed maybe 3-5%, but I don't really know.


It would be best to ask Gerben or Selena and Dick this question. But I discussed this with Ron here and he also guesses 3% or less. This can be easily found by researching the trail results from each province on the months they trial. But the answer to the question is......... A VERY LOW % of the dogs are GSDs.


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## R Janssen

For my Province it's 1 GSD out of 50 dogs. (for the spring certifications end May)
Also only 1 Dutchie out of those same 50 dogs. 

http://www.knpvlim.nl/indeling_oefen_voorjaar.html
MH=Mal DH=GSD HH=Dutchie


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## Selena van Leeuwen

I guess 2-3 %, the last 3 or 4 years there are more GSD´s brought to their certificate. 
From about mid ´80´s till about 2000 the GSD wasn´t very suited for the program anymore (of course there were some exeptions, but before about 1985 there were far more GSD in KNPV). 

One can discuss what the reason of the "come back" of the GSD's is, are the dogs getting better bred or are the tests in the KNPV program devaluating? But that's a whole other discussion.


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## Christopher Jones

I have also found that depending on which provence you are in can effect what type of dogs you see. So in one part of Holland you may see more Dutchies or GSD's where as in other provences you might see less.
I guess at this moment you will see more Dutchies in Overjissel than in some other areas, just as an example, mainly due to the fact they have a highly used stud dog like Rudie Pegge there. From what I can gather some areas have always being stronger for say Dutchies, than others. I might assume this would be similar for the GSD where you might have a few breeders of them in the same provence.


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## Matt Grosch

I was going to make another thread hoping to get a concise, point by point, breakdown of the differences and similarities between the various sports/methods. I dont see that here, but I guess if you sort through everything you can kinda make it out.

But, some things are still not clear for me. Not just specifics of training/testing, but the general philosophy behind it. 

(Since it is where all my analogies come from I will use a M.M.A. comparison.)

1)In Brazillian Jiu Jitsu, the emphasis is on technique, and while physical strength and athleticism support the technique, it is still de-emphasized and almost looked down upon. VS. wrestling in which athletism, strength, and generally just overwhelming the opponent physically is the goal and supported by technique. (Two examples of each are Dean Lister and Dan Henderson, and training with those guys was quite different although equally humbleing)

In muay thai the philosophy is one of mutual exchange, giving and receiving punishment until one breaks, vs kickboxing/full contact karate which values avoidance/elusiveness much moreso....

Anyway, the various dog sports must have different values/goals and Im still trying to clarify those.

2) There was another discussion about the suitability of a dutchie for schutzhund as opposed to a GSD. It seems as though the consensus is that both in training, and genetics, the dogs are different and thus, not naturally as suited for certain sports. I wonder how much of this is modeling the sport to suit the national tendencies of the dog, as opposed to selecting and breeding for dogs that are better suited for the goals of the specific sport. (Kind of a 'which came first, the chicken or the egg?' question......makes me wonder if none Americans will have any idea what that phrase means)....


Good discussion/thread for the most part though.


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## hillel schwartzman

after watching gypsy you tube vid this a perfect score is horseth.t don't get me wrong i am learning knpv (old schh guy first) but come on perfect score my butt.....just think the next dog could have been better..guess that dog got a 441 lol


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