# PPD & kids....



## Josiah Neuman

Here is a video we shot this week of a 9yr old boy handling a GSD / PPD.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bROr3zby3jw


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## Chris Michalek

Josiah Neuman said:


> Here is a video we shot this week of a 9yr old boy handling a GSD / PPD.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bROr3zby3jw



WOW. :-o


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## Howard Gaines III

A PPD and a loaded gun are about one in the same. No matter what type of control and teaching you have done, it's still a KID!


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## Josiah Neuman

IMO including the kids with any/all dog training is important. Especially if the dog is living in the home w/children. Why not start them at a young age?


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## Al Curbow

Nice dog and the kid does a good job too. Clear dogs are great. Look at that dog Bas, he works really nice and at the end of the video he's licking a baby, great dogs! My new pup is so clearheaded, i LOVE it,


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## Josiah Neuman

"A PPD and a loaded gun are about one in the same."

Gun safety classes for kids teaches safe and proper handling at an early age. Therefore if you compare a PPD to a loaded gun consider this, a FAMILY PROTECTION DOG is going to be living in the home, playing in the yard, and being with the family so the kids need to learn proper handling skills.

Regards,


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## David Scholes

Howard Gaines III said:


> A PPD and a loaded gun are about one in the same. No matter what type of control and teaching you have done, it's still a KID!


The difference is a dog can go off on it's own. The gun needs to be picked up and the trigger pulled. So, a dog can be more of a "loose cannon" than a gun.


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## Chris Michalek

I'm all for kids learning how to handle a dog in preparation for a scenario where it's absolutely necessary. I don't have children but I don't have to have my own to know they can and will do stupid stuff. I think most kids know about guns and tend to know that it shouldn't be messed with or pointed at another person and yet there are still accident. 

Having a biting dog that is trained to bite while viewed as a playmate, pet, companion is asking for trouble when unsupervised kids are around. "Oh he won't bite" is going to be the general attitude of many kids and even some adults. The real answer is "HE WILL BITE" because he's trained to bite people. I can see a kid "sending" the dog on another kid just for the coolness factor. Kids like to run around and play with sticks and I don't have to mention the possibility of that setting off a dog. 

In the case of Josiah's dog, it doesn't appear to be much more than a schutzhund trained dog. Nice dog but that scene wasn't realistic at all. How many bad guys are going to have a big barrel sleeve with them and actually work to build the dog while on a bite? Nice dog but it didn't appear to be a protection dog anymore than Howard's chained up fat lady with a frying pan at the end of his driveway. The dog appears to be equipment oriented and how is that any kind of PP dog?

Josiah, was that you working your own dog? Is this a dog that lives with you and thinks it's ok to bite people in it's pack?

IMO, Kids and PPD is asking for trouble.


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## Chris Michalek

I was checking out your other videos... lot's of nice ones in there.

This video has a GSD that appears to be a lot more dog than the one you posted. Would you feel safe with a 9yr boy handling this dog? 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShgUAMmldj8


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## Howard Gaines III

Josiah Neuman said:


> IMO including the kids with any/all dog training is important. Especially if the dog is living in the home w/children. Why not start them at a young age?


Does the word "*liability*" mean anything? It is for the same reason you don't allow children to hunt or carry a loaded firearm, unless under close and direct, adult supervision. Nothing wrong with starting folks out young, but match the requirements with the responsibility and the liability.


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## kim guidry

I would not feel comfortable with a nine year old child handling a working dog. IMO the video demonstrates what can be accomplished when people take the time to work with their dogs and kids to acheive those results. I would not want someone (a novice) who is looking for a PPD to see this video and think that this is the "norm". That they can just buy a ppd, bring it home and "poof" their child can handel/control the dog. Our dogs training are the results of the time we put in to it.

I have a 6yr old son. He has been taught to safely play, feed and do some obedience with Zauro. It is allways in my presence. NOTE: I said obedience and not bite/protection work. A person may feel that they have a dog that is great with kids. And 95% of the time they may be correct. However, there is that 5% chance that something can happen. I believe that my shit-zu would bite out of fear before my GSD, but the bite would be worse with my GSD than my shit-zu. 

Just my 2 cents....


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## kim guidry

Chris Michalek said:


> I don't have children but I don't have to have my own to know they can and will do stupid stuff.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: "stupid stuff" you don't know the half of it!


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## Howard Gaines III

Kim, I know you have heard this before, *the nut doesn't fall very far from the tree*. Well, maybe Chris knows just how bad he was as a kid and doesn't want to go crazy with little monsters like he *MIGHT* have been! JMO here and not picking on the helpless....no...never...not here! :mrgreen: \\/ 

Feeling the love today? LOL!!!!! :twisted: Arrrrrrrrh!


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## Chris Michalek

Howard Gaines III said:


> Kim, I know you have heard this before, *the nut doesn't fall very far from the tree*. Well, maybe Chris knows just how bad he was as a kid and doesn't want to go crazy with little monsters like he *MIGHT* have been! JMO here and not picking on the helpless....no...never...not here! :mrgreen: \\/
> 
> Feeling the love today? LOL!!!!! :twisted: Arrrrrrrrh!



let's just say I'm lucky to be alive 3 times. \\/


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## Josiah Neuman

I have seen several examples of PPDs that would not be suitable to be handled by kids (let alone adults)... 

Not all dogs are good with kids, not all kids are good with dogs. Pairing them up succesfully is very important.

Regards,


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## Mo Earle

Josiah, I love seeing kids getting involved with the training. We were involved in a training club that had a 8 year old handling a rhodesian R. doing obedience and protection stuff and when we had our own club in Fla. we had a young boy who came out and would work the family boxer, and later Terry's daughter would work their GSD and also put on the bite sleeve and take bites from dogs on lead. We did have to stop it though-due to the liability factor- I think most of us can say we have received a bite of one kind or another during training, and our insurance company said No way-so we had to stop the kids training. I don't have kids, but if I did-they would be involved in the training, just as our neices and nephews are started very young handling firearms for hunting. But someone elses kid...no, so we stopped due to the liability and realized no matter how good a friend they are, if they get bitten-especially in a dominant hand or in the face-their parents are going to do whatever they need to to-attys, lawsuits,etc to get them the best medical care- and unfortunately it will be devastating for all involved. But it is a hard call, because I love seeing the little guys handling these dogs. :-k


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## Mo Earle

​ 
at first in our club we tried to let the kids get involved- besides obedience we did teach them the power
of the dogs bite, in taking bites on a sleeve, and let them participate- they had a blast!

 

​ 
we felt it was a good thing, they were interested, and it is better than them being bored and getting in trouble some place else- UNTIL the insurance said NO WAY....and as much as we were friends- when it
comes to getting your kid the best medical care- friendship aside- atty's come in- so unfortunately we
stopped all kids under 18 from taking bites, and only 16 and older to participate in obedience on our home field​ 

​


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## Bob Scott

kim guidry said:


> I would not feel comfortable with a nine year old child handling a working dog. IMO the video demonstrates what can be accomplished when people take the time to work with their dogs and kids to acheive those results. I would not want someone (a novice) who is looking for a PPD to see this video and think that this is the "norm". That they can just buy a ppd, bring it home and "poof" their child can handel/control the dog. Our dogs training are the results of the time we put in to it.
> 
> I have a 6yr old son. He has been taught to safely play, feed and do some obedience with Zauro. It is allways in my presence. NOTE: I said obedience and not bite/protection work. A person may feel that they have a dog that is great with kids. And 95% of the time they may be correct. However, there is that 5% chance that something can happen. I believe that my shit-zu would bite out of fear before my GSD, but the bite would be worse with my GSD than my shit-zu.
> 
> Just my 2 cents....


Ditto!
My grandkids KNOW to leave my JRT alone. Do I trust them to do so? HELL no! They're kids.
They also love to play fetch with the older GSD. Would I trust them to be left alone with him? HELL no! They're kids. My younger GSD loves the kids but he's a bull in a china shop. Would I trust him alone with the kids? HELL no! He's as bad as the kids are. 
Not to question the integrity of the video but did the child actually have anything to do with the training or was it just putting the dog through it's paces and someone behind the camera with his/her finger on the button? 
My guess is that the dog was trained with compulsion. Not a problem but I'm seeing a hang dog tail out there. The dog possibly isn't enjoying doing the work. 
Is the child old enough, strong enough, smart enough, have enough actual leadership ability to control the dog if it decides today's the day to say **** it? 
I've always felt that using kids in selling a dog, in particular dogs similar to what most on the forum have, will give to many people a false sense of security within the family that buys such a dog. JMHO!


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## Howard Gaines III

Josiah, I'm not saying the idea is wrong, it's the timing. As a Delaware educator and one who has been in the classroom for some time now, the liability issue is a very strong element. *Parents cannot sign away a child's liability.* As a Delaware Hunter Education instructor and certified Master Hunter, firearms training is something that should be developed early. You can't teach it one way and them give the kid a .50 caliber handgun and tell them to keep the rounds on target or to wander in the woods as an "all knowing" and safe little human.

Kids will be kids, accidents will happen, and dogs even with the best of training will get a wild hair growing...
The last thing you can explain to a K-9 sport handler is that my KID did it. He/she was in control of the dog, and if the dog eats some little old lady's fluffy dog and someone else is there with a camera....OMG will they have a field day with it!!! 

"See, PPDs aren't safe and we need some form of BSL to regulate who and how that are trained." [-( [-X 
I 100% support kids doing different things to help them understand what WE do in our adult life. But even the crazy shop kids I teach, I wouldn't let them catch one of our club dogs w/o mom or dad on site. Trust me, I know you mean well!


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## Al Curbow

The kid WAS supervised, the dog and the kid did great. I'd like to see some folks that have PPD's post videos instead of comments all the time. Let's see these beasts that are so unsafe! I'm going to take a guess here and say that Josiah knows a lot about training and safety..............


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## David Scholes

Al Curbow said:


> The kid WAS supervised, the dog and the kid did great. I'd like to see some folks that have PPD's post videos instead of comments all the time. Let's see these beasts that are so unsafe! I'm going to take a guess here and say that Josiah knows a lot about training and safety..............


Probably does, I don't worry about Josiah. I worry about the uneducated Disney effect in everyone else.


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## Mike Scheiber

Josiah put a helmet in him and sit him down in front of a tv with a play station surrounded by pillows keep him safe. 
Oh and for fuc sakes don't let him near the snow blower 
Cant any of you dog training experts talking heads see this is nothing more than a guy and his kid goofing around with with there bite dog hell the guy is giving his own dog bites. Dose this dog look dangerous. The kid is more likely to get bit walking past the dog dish.
I've seen some stupid videos on here that have put kids in bad spots this isn't one of them.


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## David Scholes

Mike Scheiber said:


> Josiah put a helmet in him and sit him down in front of a tv with a play station surrounded by pillows keep him safe.
> Oh and for fuc sakes don't let him near the snow blower
> Cant any of you dog training experts talking heads see this is nothing more than a guy and his kid goofing around with with there bite dog hell the guy is giving his own dog bites. Dose this dog look dangerous. The kid is more likely to get bit walking past the dog dish.
> I've seen some stupid videos on here that have put kids in bad spots this isn't one of them.


I don't think the negative comments were directed at this kid or Josiah. The title of the thread says "PPD & kids...". The point is not all dogs & kids mix well. Only if well supervised. Hell when I was a kid I'd of loved to have a PPD I could sick on the bullies in the neighborhood to get even after school [-X. Never had a problem with our ridgeback for over 10 years until my 7 year old boy pulled his ears and almost got 10 stitches in his face.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Josiah, just keep posting. The dogs OB with the child was really nice. You did an outstanding job there.


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## Chad Byerly

I thought they looked like a nice team for SchH or another dogsport.


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## jay lyda

Taking the bitework out I think its a great idea to teach a child the proper way to handle and OB train a dog. And this can simply be with your household pet. My kids are always telling me that they want to learn how to train OB. Right now they are a little young to really grasp it so when they are ready I will teach them.


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## Maren Bell Jones

In the context of sport performance/PPDs and kids, honestly, I wouldn't be as concerned with my own kids or with them being involved with training as I would be for other people's kids. You know, the kids are rough housing and the dog fires up on the "attacking" playmate, even if there's an adult supervising. You can't explain to the dog they are just playing. Heck, when Fawkes was like 10 months old, we went to the annual dog show in town to watch the obedience rings and maybe a little conformation just for fun, but don't tell anyone! :-$ Two kids (the boy was about 9 or 10 and the girl was about 7 or 8 who I assume were brother and sister) were playing near the bleachers where we were standing. I saw the boy sneak up behind the girl and grab her and tickle her. Fawkes just lit up on that as I'm sure to him she looked like she was getting accosted. And that wasn't even a pack member! That'd be a bigger liability in my mind than even having the kids do some handling.


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## Josiah Neuman

Thanks for the comments - thought I would share some video. Note: no one was hurt in the making of this video.  

Regards, 

Josiah


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## Chris Michalek

The question I have is the dog in that video a true PPD or just a sport dog? looked like a schH dog to me.


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## Sara Findley

Shoot my kid was decoying at the age of 3. 




Ok not really lol. I have met some very mature kids though and when Jaden is 9-10 and I know my dog is trained well enough with her I would let her work her IF i felt she was mature enough about the protection work side. I have also met some very immature adults I wouldn't let touch my dog sooo... :-k


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## Josiah Neuman

Manny is a hybrid (lol), he is a protection dog that loves to do sport stuff. He is very balanced and clear headed which is why I don't mind working him + handling if need be. 

When we do PPD stuff I am not the decoy - if we are doing sport stuff I sleeve up. In this particular video we set out to break in my new sleeve and the camera was rolling. Note: thanks for the advice given from this forum on the Hard Dog chomp.... its a very nice piece of equipment.

Regards,


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## Bob Scott

My kids and dogs were in OB classes at a very early age, and winning. I'm looking forward to my grand kids doing the same.
My point was simply that using this in an add and folks looking for a PPD and seeing this could easily get the "Disney" mentality and put their kids in a bad place. 
Even though my dogs are bite trained or in bite training I don't have any "killer" dog's. I still wont allow my Gkids to be unattended with any of my dogs. Kids are kids!!
Adds with kids and ANY bite trained dogs, sport or otherwise, can be quite misleading to the vast majority of the public!


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## Josiah Neuman

The "Disney" mentality can go in both directions, people think their dogs can naturally do the work which means they rely on NO training (hmmmm - scary).... OR someone can misuse the training and send the dog which is an obvious concern. In either example, the same liabilities exist. 

A family protection dog needs to be stable, confident, social, obedient, and well trained. Its not like we are doing passive bites with children suited up.... 

As a trainer I feel its very important to screen clients, train with responsible people, place dogs according to the ability/limitations of the parties involved (including their experience / understanding of PP dogs), and further - accept the liabilities that go with it. In this particular case it was one of my dogs, and our 9yr old son. 

Regards,


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## Dan Long

Some of you guys seem to forget that an untrained dog is just as much of a liability and often more of a bite risk than a bite trained dog. Any dog with kids needs to be supervised, whether it's a protection or sport dog, or the family lab. I don't think Josiah is going to let the child take that dog down to the playground and send it on the other kids, he's being responsible about it, just like my brother who is teaching his 6 year old son about hunting. Early exposure to these sort of things will teach a child how they must respect the tool they are using, whether it's a dog or gun. 

IMO, having a kid do this kind of training is no more risky than the "experienced" trainer who lets his dog run down field for uncontrolled bites on green decoys. How much less dangerous is your dog 30 yards away from you, on a decoy, with no line attached, than a kid doing very controlled work with a dog? Oh, that's right, the decoy has a helmet on so when the dog rebites before the handler gets there, he's safe.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Good point, Dan. I think if they taught to be respectful of the dogs (and vice versa), it can be a positive experience if well supervised. This is why my future kids will not be allowed to play with toy guns. Guns aren't toys, they are tools. If they show an interest in hunting or shooting or martial arts or whatever, that's fine, we'll find a way to educate them, but they aren't toys, that's for sure! [-X


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## Howard Gaines III

Al Curbow said:


> The kid WAS supervised, the dog and the kid did great. I'd like to see some folks that have PPD's post videos instead of comments all the time. Let's see these beasts that are so unsafe! I'm going to take a guess here and say that Josiah knows a lot about training and safety..............


Al I'm old skool, tell me how to do it. PM or post. This tool is one that I haven't mastered and need "guided instruction" on for your request. Thanks!


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## Howard Gaines III

Well...let me get my Bible, guns and dogs. Now I'm all warm and fuzzy. There is risk in any type of activity you do. If you can't handle the idea of risk and injury, stay home and watch TV or play computer games. PPDs, guns, sports, and just walking down the street need to be matched with proper training and the used in the proper venue.

I doubt that any one here would want to see another hunt in training. BUT, the dog like the gun are tools and accidents will happen. With age there should come understanding, with understanding there should also be controls or safeguards.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: 
Thanks for the comments - thought I would share some video. Note: no one was hurt in the making of this video. 

Keep posting. Until they show videos of these reckless badass dogs they all seem to know, have, or have heard of, then I for one would love to see more work like that. 

Those of you that think this is some unGodly liability, let ME see some video of your "trained" dog.[-X [-X [-X I would lay money that there is not nearly as much liability there as you would HOPE.

Again, nice stuff. **** em.:-$ :-$ :-$ :-$


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## Steve Burger

We have a young woman at our club who is in her late 20's. When she was 8 years old in Germany her father gave her a dog he could not do anything with. She started training in Sch and ended up doing pretty well with it (I think titling to a sch3) so it is possible. She does not currently have a dog, but wanted to be a member. She is doing some helper work, which is something she was never allowed to do in Germany. The biggest problem with her is to get her to stop laughing.


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## Kyle Sprag

How is that PPD? the dog bites a sleeve OK.....LOL


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: . This is why my future kids will not be allowed to play with toy guns.

What ??? I want a whole new thread started so I can beat that idea out of your head. Let me guess, your kids will be so ****ing dumb that they cannot figure out the difference ??

Besides, we used to run after each other with sticks shooting each other. How you gonna block that ??


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## Chris Michalek

Jeff, you're a ****ing bastard because nearly everyday I end up spitting out my coffee because of something you write. You owe me a couple of keyboards and at least three shirts. Thanks!


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## Howard Gaines III

Chris Michalek said:


> Jeff, you're a ****ing bastard because nearly everyday I end up spitting out my coffee because of something you write. You owe me a couple of keyboards and at least three shirts. Thanks!


Chris you're crying over a few keyboards and shirts! I just lost it on my office chair, and failed to hit my big mouth at the same time. Glad there are no video cameras in here, it was worth $$$$$$$$$$$$.\\/


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## Jerry Lyda

Jeff we did that too. lol


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## Gillian Schuler

Cops and robbers and, my favourite, a tomahawk!!!!


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## Kadi Thingvall

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> This is why my future kids will not be allowed to play with toy guns.


LOL I thought they originally said "this is why my furkids will not ..." I was still trying to figure out how their dogs were going to play with guns, was it sarcasm, etc Especially when you mentioned playing with sticks, now that I could see my "furkids" :roll: doing :lol: 

I have fond memories of homemade wrist rockets and sling shots with green pine cones, bows and arrows, spears, numchucks (don't know how to spell it), etc. Didn't need any toy guns to cause harm


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Nunchucks maybe. I just see little screwy "bell-jones" kids duct taped with helmets on, squirming about the backyard like catapillars, trying to block some rescue dog from dry humping them wishing they had a stick. Of course she has cut all the trees, and bushes down.

Good thing I stopped doing therapy. I would recognize those kids for sure. LOL


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## Bob Scott

Knife fights with those plastic serrated picnic knives can be a bitch on a kids hide. Your full of cuts before you realize your cut, then you try and convince your mom that you fell in one of her rose bushes but that REALLY pisses her off so you........ .......nevermind! Hijackin agin!  ops;


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## Maren Bell Jones

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Nunchucks maybe. I just see little screwy "bell-jones" kids duct taped with helmets on, squirming about the backyard like catapillars, trying to block some rescue dog from dry humping them wishing they had a stick. Of course she has cut all the trees, and bushes down.
> 
> Good thing I stopped doing therapy. I would recognize those kids for sure. LOL


Jeff, I did taekwondo for about 5 years and my husband did it for over 10. That's probably what attracted me to protection sport in the first place. We're not exactly pacifists. :lol: We're definitely not opposed to using guns or other weapons for hunting or self defense, just not playing with them like they are toys. I think it's more the suburban kids who are never taught the basics of gun safety and handling but who are given toy guns to play with and some how come across Daddy's Glock or Beretta is much more dangerous. I've done childcare for a church in town for over 6 years. It totally changes the dynamic when kids bring toy guns from home to play with and not in a good way. That's why we don't allow it. If parents want to give their kids toy guns as gifts, that's their perrogative. I'd just prefer my own kids to learn that they are potentially deadly tools, not toys.

Duct tape would be an excellent way to shut them kids up, this much is true... :twisted:


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## Alyssa Myracle

Letting my son crash his little pedal car into the side of the house not only mars my siding, but will cause him to some day commit vehicular homicide, because he cannot make the distinction between a pretend car and a real one?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Just give the children real guns to play with. It's a gene pool thing, don't think about it too much. LOL


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## Chris Michalek

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Just give the children real guns to play with. It's a gene pool thing, don't think about it too much. LOL



So you never had a BB gun fight when you were a kid? #-o


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## Alyssa Myracle

I have scars from BB Gun fights.

As gnarly as the bb guns were, though, the home-made slingshots were way worse.


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## Chris Michalek

Alyssa Myracle said:


> I have scars from BB Gun fights.
> 
> As gnarly as the bb guns were, though, the home-made slingshots were way worse.



Me too. I have a little hole in my forehead from when my dad used his pocket knife to pop out a BB.  Still I'm not as tough as some people I know who've been shot with a .9mm or larger.

Our only armor was two pairs of jeans, two sweatshirts and goggles.


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## Alyssa Myracle

Right before we deployed, a soldier in my unit had to have surgery on his hand.

When he was 12, he got shot in the hand with a BB gun, and the BB had remained lodged in the meaty portion of his palm for ten years. Right before it was time to head to Iraq, it suddenly became septic and they had to go in and remove the BB. There was all sorts of bizarre infected encapsulation tissue and everything. Strangest thing.


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## Mike Scheiber

Pfffft BB gun fights were the norm in grade school JR High we raised the bar to shotgun wads way back cheep shotgun shells were paper and had paper wads we would empty the BB's out. Those mofos stung like a bastard would leave a nice hard purple knot on your hide I still remember hopping and squirming around after a blast man they hurt.


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## jay lyda

BB gun wars, bottle rocket wars, and of course the infamous war games we used to play which was basic hand to hand combat. With two pieces of duct tape on your shoulders your goal was to make it back to base without loosing the tape and you yourself in one piece.


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## Chris Michalek

I think we need a new thread on who is more ******* than who....

I was never much of a drinker, in fact, I haven't been drunk since I was 22 but when I was 17-18 a bunch of us were pretty wasted and we had a contest to see who could take the most gut punches without vomiting.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Alyssa Myracle said:


> Letting my son crash his little pedal car into the side of the house not only mars my siding, but will cause him to some day commit vehicular homicide, because he cannot make the distinction between a pretend car and a real one?


Ummm...I don't know if it's the fact I just got out of 3 hours of radiology and can't think straight, but I have no idea what you're talking about. I'm pretty sure most people don't purchase and use their cars as weapons to begin with. I don't give a crap how you much you let your kid crash your car into your house or not, within reason as long as he isn't hurting himself or whatever. Once again, I'm not trying to shield them from actually learning how to use guns safely if they are interested, I just don't think guns or weapons should be toys for my kids. They should be tools viewed with respect and not as playthings for the same reason as when I was a martial arts instructor, we didn't let the kids run around the training facility and whack each other with the foam bo staff. If they want to learn how to use real firearms correctly, that's great. I'll either teach them or my father enjoys shooting as well, so grandpa can teach them too.


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## Alyssa Myracle

Maren Bell Jones said:


> They should be tools viewed with respect and not as playthings for the same reason as when I was a martial arts instructor, *we didn't let the kids run around the training facility and whack each other with the foam bo staff*..


Buzzkill.




I guess you won't be spanking, either?


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## Chris Michalek

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I was a martial arts instructor, we didn't let the kids run around the training facility and whack each other with the foam bo staff.



"Yeah, there's like a butt-load of gangs at this school. This one gang kept wanting me to join 'cause I'm pretty good with a bo staff." 

Maren, don't forget that girls like boys with skills.


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## Mike Scheiber

Chris Michalek said:


> "Yeah, there's like a butt-load of gangs at this school. This one gang kept wanting me to join 'cause I'm pretty good with a bo staff."
> 
> Maren, don't forget that girls like boys with skills.


Chris had to take it to the moon with the "bo staff" [-X
I'm out!


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## Chris Michalek

Mike Scheiber said:


> Chris had to take it to the moon with the "bo staff" [-X
> I'm out!



My Dad didn't quite get Napoleon Dynamite either....=;


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## Maren Bell Jones

Alyssa Myracle said:


> Buzzkill.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I guess you won't be spanking, either?


Buzzkill? So how much would you pay your son's martial arts instructor to let him run around wild and whack people with the bo staff? That'd go over real well... :roll: 

And WTH? I am NOT against guns or self defense or hunting or whatever else. I am against giving them toys that diminish the seriousness of their nature. Do we give our kids toy bombs to strap to their chest to play at being suicide bombers? Or toy landmines? If my kids want to "play" with guns, I'd take them out to the range and learn how to shoot safely and with supervision. Even if people don't want guns for hunting or self defense, it's still an interesting sport, just like archery. But aiming them at other people or animals or whatever, even in play, is not acceptable. 

What does that have to do with spanking? I train and discipline kids pretty similar to how I train and discipline dogs: fair corrections, physical if needed.


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## Bob Scott

DAMN! Roy, Hoppy, Gene, and all the other good guys are rolling in their graves about now! :lol: :lol:


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## Howard Gaines III

This thread has become more fun than watching paint dry! And bottle rocket wars... beats the old "crack-a-balls" that you threw on the ground like caps. Step up to beer can cannons or STP cannons with golf balls for real phun!

Back to PPDs get'em Fluffy! Watch out for those grits!


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## Chris Michalek

"crack-a-balls" sounds like another good ******* drinking game or spousal motivational tool.


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## jay lyda

Chris Michalek said:


> "crack-a-balls" sounds like another good ******* drinking game or spousal motivational tool.



I don't know............that sounds like it might be one of those Howard Gaines III kind of games. And only he knows the rules. LOL


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## Alyssa Myracle

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Buzzkill? So how much would you pay your son's martial arts instructor to let him run around wild and whack people with the bo staff? That'd go over real well... :roll:
> 
> And WTH? I am NOT against guns or self defense or hunting or whatever else. I am against giving them toys that diminish the seriousness of their nature. Do we give our kids toy bombs to strap to their chest to play at being suicide bombers? Or toy landmines? If my kids want to "play" with guns, I'd take them out to the range and learn how to shoot safely and with supervision. Even if people don't want guns for hunting or self defense, it's still an interesting sport, just like archery. But aiming them at other people or animals or whatever, even in play, is not acceptable.
> 
> What does that have to do with spanking? I train and discipline kids pretty similar to how I train and discipline dogs: fair corrections, physical if needed.


I'm messin' with you.

Oh yeah, and Napoleon Dynamite was the shiznit.


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## Courtney Guthrie

Man, I used to chase my cousins witha baseball bat and then hold them down and beat the crap out of them(not with the bat, it was intimidationto get the to fall to the ground, idiots...worked every time.) I was the only girl growing up and I had to stand my own, we played cops and robbers and the robbers got real beat downs...or when my mom wasn't looking, I'd set my little sister's HeelerX on them.....it was fun and I was young. I knew it was wrong, my parents grounded me, spanked me, but I'd still wait for the opportunity to do it again as it was FUN no matter what the consequences were. BUT we were also allowed to play with paintball guns, even to shoot each other with them in paintball wars. As well, we went hunting and shooting etc. We KNEW the difference between play and real. Guess that's where some parents are good and some are bad. *Shrugs* Thankfully I had the good kind that taught me real from make-believe and acceptable behaviors etc.

Courtney


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## Chris Michalek

Courtney Guthrie said:


> Man, I used to chase my cousins witha baseball bat and then hold them down and beat the crap out of them(not with the bat, it was intimidationto get the to fall to the ground, idiots...worked every time.) I was the only girl growing up and I had to stand my own, we played cops and robbers and the robbers got real beat downs...or when my mom wasn't looking, I'd set my little sister's HeelerX on them.....it was fun and I was young. I knew it was wrong, my parents grounded me, spanked me, but I'd still wait for the opportunity to do it again as it was FUN no matter what the consequences were. BUT we were also allowed to play with paintball guns, even to shoot each other with them in paintball wars. As well, we went hunting and shooting etc. We KNEW the difference between play and real. Guess that's where some parents are good and some are bad. *Shrugs* Thankfully I had the good kind that taught me real from make-believe and acceptable behaviors etc.
> 
> Courtney


Another excuse to play "Doctor". I remember getting a real beat down from my dad when I was a kid. I was playing doctor with the neighbor girl. She'd had actually been in the hospital at one time in her life after she got hit by a car and knew that you have to be naked when you're in the hospital.

My pappy was a Doc and so we always had medical supplies around the house. When I was playing with this girl, I taped hoses to her arms, nose and even taped one where a #14 foley would go. Then I did surgery on her with a red marker. Shit, I must have been 8, I wasn't smart enough to know that I really had a naked chick in front of me, we were playing doctor for real. Anyway, I got a beating for that and was banned from seeing the neighbor girl for a month.


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## Courtney Guthrie

Yeah, I had a friend that tried to get me to play doctor once. I beat the snot out of him and he ran home bawling, then his mom came over and said that my little brother beat him up. lol lol My dad told her no, it was his daughter that did and the boy's dad said it served him right and to get in the car...he could learn something from me. I was a mean little girl. I rode horses, played with Rotties, trained my little sister's healerX to bite people that would run away....lol lol .....I was a horrid child. BUT it made me a better adult I think! 

Courtney


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I never had any problem getting girls to play doctor.


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## Chris Michalek

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I never had any problem getting girls to play doctor.


I'd like to see if you can get Courtney to play doctor with before she beats your ass with stick and you counter with your newspaper. Now that would be entertainment.... UWDFC style.

Looking at Courtney...ARE YOU READY?......... ](*,)


Looking to Jeff...ARE YOU READY?......:-o


LET GET IT ON!!! =D>=D>=D>=D>=D>


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## Howard Gaines III

Chris Michalek said:


> I'd like to see if you can get Courtney to play doctor with before she beats your ass with stick and you counter with your newspaper. Now that would be entertainment.... UWDFC style.
> 
> Looking at Courtney...ARE YOU READY?......... ](*,)
> 
> 
> Looking to Jeff...ARE YOU READY?......:-o
> 
> 
> LET GET IT ON!!! =D>=D>=D>=D>=D>


Make sure they both have whips, I don't want to miss any of the action and the whip will let me know whose in what drive mode...defense or punked! LOL


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## Courtney Guthrie

Yeah boys....calm down. I fight dirty and if you're bigger, I'll pick up somthing bigger than you. Taser, bat, whatever is by my hand. 

That said...I don't think a whip would be beneficial in telling drive modes as I've learned that in people a few words puts someone in defense quicker than anything else in the world. lol lol lol 

Chris- I couldn't kick Jeff's ass anyway, as he is "ELDERLY" and well, I'd feel bad...it'd be like beating up my dad. I just couldn't do it. lol lol lol lol 

Courtney


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## Lisa Geller

Josiah,

so, how twisted am I, I'm thinking Chance might fit in Warren's old red suit...

:lol:


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Chris- I couldn't kick Jeff's ass anyway, as he is "ELDERLY" and well, I'd feel bad...it'd be like beating up my dad. I just couldn't do it. lol lol lol lol

Probably could still get you to play Doctor. : P


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## Courtney Guthrie

Doubt it......I mean.....there's something wrong when you are as OLD as my dad...I'm just not down with that!!!! lol lol lol   

Courtney


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I forget that there are people on this board that are teenagers. Every dog person I know is old. JK :grin:


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## Josiah Neuman

Lisa Geller said:


> Josiah,
> 
> so, how twisted am I, I'm thinking Chance might fit in Warren's old red suit...
> 
> :lol:


I think your right Lisa, Chance is about the same size.  

At this rate I might have a replacement for when I go on vacation this summer.

Josiah


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## Courtney Guthrie

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I forget that there are people on this board that are teenagers. Every dog person I know is old. JK :grin:


HEY, I'm 23 years old. It's not my fault that my parents had me when they were young. My dad is turning 41 this year and my mom 42. *Shrugs* lol lol lol lol lol lol ;-)  :lol: :lol: :lol: 

The old people are usaully more expierienced though and I actually have only ever trained with old people that have told me in the beginning I wouldn't be back adn then surprise the hell out of them when I show up each seesion, by the end of the probation period for becoming a member, they were saying that I was one of those kids. Whatever that meant! :-\" :-\" O


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## Jennifer Marshall

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Probably could still get you to play Doctor. : P


I have nothing intelligent to say in relation to the OP. Just want to thank Jeff for being the reason for my first experience shooting Pepsi out of my nose.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: The old people are usaully more expierienced though

You have no idea.:-$ :-$ :-$ :-$ :-$ :-$


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## Courtney Guthrie

Nice use of quotes. That was said in RELATION TO DOG TRAINING!!!!!! lol lol 

Courtney


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## Bob Scott

Courtney Guthrie said:


> HEY, I'm 23 years old. It's not my fault that my parents had me when they were young. My dad is turning 41 this year and my mom 42. *Shrugs* lol lol lol lol lol lol ;-)  :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> The old people are usaully more expierienced though and I actually have only ever trained with old people that have told me in the beginning I wouldn't be back adn then surprise the hell out of them when I show up each seesion, by the end of the probation period for becoming a member, they were saying that I was one of those kids. Whatever that meant! :-\" :-\" O


 
!!!41-42 !!! 
Your mom and dad are kids too! :razz: 
I just wish I could remember what I'm supposed to be expierienced at. :-k


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## Courtney Guthrie

Yeah, they had me young, but I'm the oldest...then I have a little brother and sister, my brother is graduated and my sister graduates this year...then all their kids will be gone. They were smart in a way. lol lol lol 

Courtney


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## Lee Robinson

Not all dogs are appropriate for this, but some will do well.

Also, not all parents raise their kids for this, but some will do well.

It comes down to the parents making good informed decisions...same as guns.

Don't ask the TV or society to raise your kids and expect everything to be ok.

Seems to me, the video was fine, and the parent has done a good job with their son and dog (in the LIMITED exposure in that video).


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## Tim Lynam

SHHHH! Lee's coming... Hide!!


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## Jason Moore

Courtney Guthrie said:


> Yeah, I had a friend that tried to get me to play doctor once. I beat the snot out of him and he ran home bawling, then his mom came over and said that my little brother beat him up. lol lol My dad told her no, it was his daughter that did and the boy's dad said it served him right and to get in the car...he could learn something from me. I was a mean little girl. I rode horses, played with Rotties, trained my little sister's healerX to bite people that would run away....lol lol .....I was a horrid child. BUT it made me a better adult I think!
> 
> Courtney


LMAO Courtney you are deff my new most favorite forum member. Right next to lee of course. LMAO


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## Chris Michalek

Lee Robinson said:


> Not all dogs are appropriate for this, but some will do well.
> 
> Also, not all parents raise their kids for this, but some will do well.


How do I know if I have a PPD or not?


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## Lee Robinson

Josiah Neuman said:


> I have seen several examples of PPDs that would not be suitable to be handled by kids (let alone adults)...
> 
> Not all dogs are good with kids, not all kids are good with dogs. Pairing them up succesfully is very important.
> 
> Regards,


Well said Josiah. You and Al said it best on page 1 and 2 of this thread...well enough that there is no need to say anything else on the subject.

And, I am sure all of us would agree that if you are going to include kids in this type of work that the kids and dogs should be supervised when they are together.


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## Mike Scheiber

Lee Robinson said:


> Well said Josiah. You and Al said it best on page 1 and 2 of this thread...well enough that there is no need to say anything else on the subject.
> 
> And, I am sure all of us would agree that if you are going to include kids in this type of work that the kids and dogs should be supervised when they are together.


Thats some good advise rite there Lee yup good advice.


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## Kyle Sprag

Mike Scheiber said:


> Thats some good advise rite there Lee yup good advice.


 
yeh Congrats Lee AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


MASTER OF THE OBVIOUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!](*,)#-o


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## James Downey

And if my Aunt had a weiner, she'd be my Uncle.


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## Jason Moore

Holy crap man I love home made sweet pickles\\/


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## Lee Robinson

Maren Bell Jones said:


> And WTH? I am NOT against guns or self defense or hunting or whatever else. I am against giving them toys that diminish the seriousness of their nature. Do we give our kids toy bombs to strap to their chest to play at being suicide bombers? Or toy landmines? If my kids want to "play" with guns, I'd take them out to the range and learn how to shoot safely and with supervision. Even if people don't want guns for hunting or self defense, it's still an interesting sport, just like archery. But aiming them at other people or animals or whatever, even in play, is not acceptable.


Maren,

Don't worry about what other people do...your doing the right thing and *YOUR IN GOOD COMPANY*. Ever heard of Elmer Keith? He certainly forgot more about guns than everyone on this board combined ever learned...including all the police offiicers added together...and he shares your view. Kids need to know a gun is NOT a toy. A gun is a tool and although one can enjoy shooting a firearm, it isn't a toy that can be handled irresponsibly. There are rules that go with this tool. Understand the rules, and enjoy the tool and what it can do. Hunt, target practice, and even just the science of balistics if that's your thing (something I am kind of into).

And, of all the people on here talking about their bb wars and the fun and games of it...they are finding humor in how stupid it was...and how lucky they were to not get hurt...and certainly none of them would condone their loved children acting so foolishly. The thing though is a water gun squirted on someone doesn't hurt, a bb gun might hurt but is extremely unlikely to be deadly, yet when a child pulls out a real firearm is suddenly isn't so funny anymore.

I agree with you completely. *If a child wants to learn guns, that's fine...but let's do it right..with supervion and responsibility*. My children know guns are for hunting and for target practice. I know they are for use for protection as well...but my kids are too young IMO to yet learn the concept of shooting a human...so right now...they are NOT allowed to shoot any type of gun at any human...I don't care if it is a water pistol..or some other type of toy. 

Can a child tell the difference between a toy and a real one...usually but certainly not always. 

Here is a REAL gun that looks like a toy belt buckle (22lr)...










Here is another real gun that looks like a toy...










Here is a toy gun that looks real...










Here is another toy that looks real...










and here are a bunch more toy guns that certainly look real enough (these are "air soft" spring guns)...

http://www.kapowwe.com/Merchant2/me...de=5-airsoft-pack&Category_Code=&Store_Code=R










*WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN WHEN A KID THAT PLAYS WITH A GUN IN A HOME WITH TOY GUNS GOINES OVER TO SOMEONE ELSE'S HOME AND FINDS A REAL GUN THAT LOOKS LIKE THIS?* (this is a real gun).











Or this (this is a real gun)...










Or this...*this too is a REAL GUN*...(although a bit extreme)










Or this (this is *another real gun*)...










There are many other appropriate games. Let them shoot a rubber band off their finger if they want...get water balloons, or get the hose. That's fine.

But toy guns can confuse small children. Some guns today look like toys.

Now, does this mean kids should not be around guns? No...it doesn't mean that. It means kids shouldn't "play" with toy guns...as guns are not toys...and that kids should learn to RESPECT all guns. To do that, we have to teach them how to handle them responsibly.

So...*some people think "kids can tell the difference," but the truth is many adults that feel thatway can't even tell the difference.*

*A locked up gun with bullets stored somewhere else is useless. The solution to gun safety is gun education.*


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## Lee Robinson

That statement should have said, what's going to happen when a kid that plays with toy guns (or perhaps even a kid who has never seen any gun...toy or real) goes over to someone else's house and finds a gun that looks like some of those real guns in the post above?

I would rather not find out...and to be safe, I teach my kids to respect all guns and that they are not toys...and if they want to learn about them, they do it with my supervision..and are taught to NEVER touch a gun without my supervision. With my supervision, they get their "curiousity" satisfied and questions answered so they don't need to look at them without me.


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## James Downey

I thought we were talking about dogs?

What about toy PPD dogs? Should children play with those?


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## Lee Robinson

James Downey said:


> I thought we were talking about dogs?
> 
> What about toy PPD dogs? Should children play with those?


Sure, why not. Here is one that looks like a toy PP dog...lol...










But, it isn't going to hurt anyone. (Although I still wouldn't leave a kid with it unattended...might catch some warts or something...arg).  Although I would love to see Jeff train it...or better yet, Thomas. lol.


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## Thomas Barriano

"But, it isn't going to hurt anyone. (Although I still wouldn't leave a kid with it unattended...might catch some warts or something...arg). Although I would love to see Jeff train it...or better yet, Thomas. lol."

What a crock. FOUR write locked subjects and LEEtle man doesn't miss a beat. Here he is with another lecture this time on GUNS. Including an insult to evey LEO on the list with his claim that Elmer Fudd (or what ever the **** his name was) knows more about guns than all of them
combined! The LEEtle Weasel has me on his Avoidance list because he is a coward in avoidance but he still posts distorted and edited videos
and constantly refers to me. Will someone please get LEEtle Man the professional help he needs to deal with his Passive Aggression, his delusions of Grandeur and his obsession with me and my dogs.
OR dump his dumb ass, so I don't have to read it.


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## Jason Moore

Here ya go Lee if your going to put some one on the ignore list you your self should shut the **** up about that person. Your continously insulting him with no chance for him to defend himself. Not that he needs to so. Here's for you Thomas


"But, it isn't going to hurt anyone. (Although I still wouldn't leave a kid with it unattended...might catch some warts or something...arg). Although I would love to see Jeff train it...or better yet, Thomas. lol."

What a crock. FOUR write locked subjects and LEEtle man doesn't miss a beat. Here he is with another lecture this time on GUNS. Including an insult to evey LEO on the list with his claim that Elmer Fudd (or what ever the **** his name was) knows more about guns than all of them
combined! The LEEtle Weasel has me on his Avoidance list because he is a coward in avoidance but he still posts distorted and edited videos
and constantly refers to me. Will someone please get LEEtle Man the professional help he needs to deal with his Passive Aggression, his delusions of Grandeur and his obsession with me and my dogs.
OR dump his dumb ass, so I don't have to read it.


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## Connie Sutherland

WTH?!

What is the gun lecture complete with giant photos about? It's a dog thread!

Hey, the mods pretty much let these ridiculous threads extinguish themselves, but this is getting VERY BORING. The looooong advertisements-disguised-as-posts as well as the ridiculous loooong replies to them ....

Can we please go back to real threads that involve training or something?

And may I add that this is the "not-so-silent" majority speaking?!



And don't anyone PM me/us about this post! Don't PM me, or other mods, either, to whine about this post! The mods are TIRED of this junk. So knock it off!

Everyone: If I had this kind of success getting people to engage and post back, post after post after post ... I'd keep it up too. :-(


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