# Gnash heeling video



## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

I need to fix the forging and the crabbing will fix itself! Agree?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDpLn6JMmYQ


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Nice job and yes to the question.
If the dog is marked/rewarded or corrected for proper position it can't be wrapped around you. 
It CAN still heel with it's ass end out but that should take care of itself if you look for it when you get the shoulder leg position correct.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Faisal Khan said:


> I need to fix the forging and the crabbing will fix itself! Agree?
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDpLn6JMmYQ


 Agreed,

I'd do more heeling along a barrier (fence, wall etc.) so the dog starts building muscle memory for the heeling position
I'd mark and reward more often.
I'd try to have a lot more slack in the lead. The slightest bit of
pressure can cause an opposition reflex reaction that will tend
to make him forge.
Minor details, overall a nice dog with nice attention and a nice
attitude


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Good inputs Bob and Thomas, thanks. I will also heel him around a fixed object counterclockwise. Last few months we concentrated on other things (B&H, tracking + retrieve) and I let the forge issue (I created) tag along. Now have time and will work the next 21 days to sort it out.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Dang looks like you got a keeper very nice. I was glad to see at the end how you rewarded JMO this is contributing to your forging You tossed the toy forward. Try keeping two toys one in the rite one in the left pocket reward with the one from your rite and toss it behind you wile your healing I think I heard you use a verbal release if you use a release give a bit of a delay between the release and the toy delivery to exaggerate and get the dog thinking back.
Play with it a bit its a short video and hard to assess but yes the wrapping should subside also.
One ting I can say for sure the longer you let it go the more difficult it will be to fix trust me on this one .


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Thanks Mike, I was advised to reward behind me or right above the head but slipped back into the bad habit of throwing it forward! Glad you caught it. Have not tried the reward from right side using 2 balls yet. One thing I tried last night was to take 1 step forward from basic position and make a 90 deg left turn + stop, dog forged and found himself out of position for the turn and got a prong correction, at the 2nd-3rd try he was expecting the turn and stayed in perfect position, I marked and rewarded. Tried this a few times and then added more left turns (essentially just heeled in a square pattern, 4-5 steps + left turn) and it seemed to work, ended session. Will see if this approach works (plus rewarding backwards) otherwise will have to go to stronger corrections and that always brings a high likelihood of getting bit by this dog :smile:


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Faisal Khan said:


> otherwise will have to go to stronger corrections and that always brings a high likelihood of getting bit by this dog :smile:


Hi Faisal

NO NO NO NO NO 
If there is a "high likelihood of getting bit" then WHY would you go to "stronger corrections"? 
You've gotten some great suggestions about fixing the problem.
Give them a try before you go to prong corrections.
There was a video posted here a few months ago with a very interesting technique of rewarding from the left side behind the back. I can't find it, does anyone know where it was?

IMO it is a lot easier to train a strong dog by figuring out what motivates him (tug/ball) and using that, then it is to overpower him with corrections


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I keep the tug in my left hand and swing my arms normally. My dog was crowding, always in anticipation and so I tried it. At first he turned his head to the "reward" (can be tug, kibble, whatever) but I didn't start the heeling work until he looked up at me. Now he is straighter and nearer to my side.

However, I don't throw the tug - he can have it when I say "OK", given from left of dog. Short bite, maybe with two or three paces around me and then out and back to left hand.


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## Jason Lin (May 26, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Hi Faisal
> 
> NO NO NO NO NO
> If there is a "high likelihood of getting bit" then WHY would you go to "stronger corrections"?
> ...


0:33 in this video. She rewards with food in her left hand (dog goes behind her to get it). Similar thing can be done with a ball or a tug
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLK_n-pWUVA

Lisa Maze and Villier. Chuck it! (to the dog's left)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uR6gGkGTPQU&feature=related

Tug on the left of the dog's head
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbVIrWJm-vw&feature=related


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Good stuff Jason. Looking forward to training tonight! You'll have to shoot the "after" video too in a couple of weeks


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Jason Lin said:


> 0:33 in this video. She rewards with food in her left hand (dog goes behind her to get it). Similar thing can be done with a ball or a tug
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLK_n-pWUVA


Hi Jason,

This wasn't the video I was referring to, but it's very similar to what I was talking about. The dog position is marked and then rewarded behind usually from the right side/hand. Thanks.

I had a hard time seeing the Lisa Maze video. She was far away from the camera when she rewarded and the clip ended too soon.


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Here you go Thomas. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9GIhRUb_vA


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## Jason Lin (May 26, 2009)

One really good way to check whether you have been rewarding the dog "correctly" or not is do what Mike suggests. Give the marker/release word but don't reward the dog immediately. Wait a second and watch which way the dog's head turn. If you have been consistent about rewarding to the left, dog's head will turn to the left. If you have been throwing the ball behind, dog will u-turn. If you have been putting the ball in the same vest pocket every time, that's where he will go. Dogs don't lie ... they will tell you exactly what you have been doing


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## Alex Pitawanakwat (Sep 28, 2010)

Candy Eggert said:


> Here you go Thomas.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9GIhRUb_vA


Man that was fun to watch!


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Candy Eggert said:


> Here you go Thomas.
> 
> 
> I'm picking Greg up at the airport...ay be a working spot open PM me if interested


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Candy Eggert said:
> 
> 
> > Here you go Thomas.
> ...


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Candy Eggert said:


> Here you go Thomas.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9GIhRUb_vA


That's the one, Thanks Candy you've helped save what little is left of my sanity


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Faisal Khan said:


> Thanks Mike, I was advised to reward behind me or right above the head but slipped back into the bad habit of throwing it forward! Glad you caught it. Have not tried the reward from right side using 2 balls yet. One thing I tried last night was to take 1 step forward from basic position and make a 90 deg left turn + stop, dog forged and found himself out of position for the turn and got a prong correction, at the 2nd-3rd try he was expecting the turn and stayed in perfect position, I marked and rewarded. Tried this a few times and then added more left turns (essentially just heeled in a square pattern, 4-5 steps + left turn) and it seemed to work, ended session. Will see if this approach works (plus rewarding backwards) otherwise will have to go to stronger corrections and that always brings a high likelihood of getting bit by this dog :smile:



If "stronger corrections" brings on a high likelihood of getting bit by this dog" then correction are not fair, poorly timed or could also be a leadership issue. 
I've always felt that handler aggression is, more often then not, created. 
The very few dogs where this is genetic are rare. NOT don't exist, just rare!


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> If "stronger corrections" brings on a high likelihood of getting bit by this dog" then correction are not fair, poorly timed or could also be a leadership issue.
> I've always felt that handler aggression is, more often then not, created.
> The very few dogs where this is genetic are rare. NOT don't exist, just rare!


Bob,

I totally agree. The "stronger corrections" are particularly unfair
is they're done to fix a problem the handler has created.
You reward from the right side 1000 times and then correct the dog for forging?????


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I agree about altering the hand the reward comes from but "IF" the marker is given when the dog is correct I'm not to concerned if the dog breaks towards the reward. I've already "told" the dog when it's correct. It's more a timing issue. That's just me though. :-D


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> I agree about altering the hand the reward comes from but "IF" the marker is given when the dog is correct I'm not to concerned if the dog breaks towards the reward. I've already "told" the dog when it's correct. It's more a timing issue. That's just me though. :-D


True if there wasn't a problem to fix but getting the dog thinking backwards may help manipulate his position and draw him back. Once he is manipulated in proper position reward ONLY proper position.
This may or may not work just something to try. Banging on the dog for forging is iffy and depends on the dogs temperament I personally like dogs that load with compulsion but getting bit ain't how its supposed to work and ain't proper use of it.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Good point IF he can be "manipulated."
I also like the dog that Loads up but as you say 
"getting bit ain't how its supposed to work and ain't proper use of it."
That GENERALLY tells me the corrections are wrong for whatever reason or leadership issues.
With leadership issues the dog can still show great OB if he knows it will get him something. treat/ball/tug/bite. It's only when you "interrupt" the dog with correction that leadership issues can arise.
Not saying this is the case with this dog. Just something I believe.


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Hey y'all are making an awful lot of assumptions here which is ok for discussion's sake but don't point them at me. I have not gotten "bit" but the possibility exists as the dog does load up and to ignore and get surprised some day would not be very smart. Quite a fire cracker I got here and he's still a youngun.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Faisal Khan said:


> Hey y'all are making an awful lot of assumptions here which is ok for discussion's sake but don't point them at me. I have not gotten "bit" but the possibility exists as the dog does load up and to ignore and get surprised some day would not be very smart. Quite a fire cracker I got here and he's still a youngun.


Hi Faisal

I'm going by what you posted
" otherwise will have to go to stronger corrections and that always brings a high likelihood of getting bit by this dog"
I don't think anyone assumed that you'd gotten bitten yet?
You've gone from "high likelihood" to "the possibility exist"
The point is, if this dog "loads up" then why even consider
prong corrections until you've exhausted reward and manipulation options? Not meant as a personal attack but you've created the problem. Why punish the dog for your mistake?


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Dude, I am not asking for help in training. Go to the first post, you will see a question there about the corralation of forging to crabbing, that is all I asked. So please keep training advice as a discussion point only, I did not ask for it nor do I need it. As far as "you said this you sad that", you play that game if it amuses you.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Faisal Khan said:


> Dude, I am not asking for help in training. Go to the first post, you will see a question there about the corralation of forging to crabbing, that is all I asked. So please keep training advice as a discussion point only, I did not ask for it nor do I need it. As far as "you said this you sad that", you play that game if it amuses you.



What ever you say DUDE


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Faisal Khan said:


> I need to fix the forging and the crabbing will fix itself! Agree?
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDpLn6JMmYQ


Maybe, maybe not. Could depend on how you fix it.


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