# dealing with food allergy



## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Right off the bat, I will tell everyone that it is not an option to go to a total raw or even mostly raw diet so don't even suggest it.

I am dealing with a kibble food allergy that does not appear to be grain related. I've tried several different formulas and any grain free version brings on massive allergy related issues no matter who made the kibble. What does seem to be a possible connection is the protein used. The two I'm focusing on are duck and lamb. So my question is this. Has anyone else seen reactions with eirther or both proteins when used in kibble? I have fed the pup occasional lamb leftovers from my own meals and didn't see any reactions but he was not getting that as a full time food source.

All of this started when I tried to move the pup off the puppy food and over to the ones I use on the rest of my dogs.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Sarah Platts said:


> Right off the bat, I will tell everyone that it is not an option to go to a total raw or even mostly raw diet so don't even suggest it.
> 
> I am dealing with a kibble food allergy that does not appear to be grain related. I've tried several different formulas and any grain free version brings on massive allergy related issues no matter who made the kibble. What does seem to be a possible connection is the protein used. The two I'm focusing on are duck and lamb. So my question is this. Has anyone else seen reactions with eirther or both proteins when used in kibble? I have fed the pup occasional lamb leftovers from my own meals and didn't see any reactions but he was not getting that as a full time food source.
> 
> All of this started when I tried to move the pup off the puppy food and over to the ones I use on the rest of my dogs.


How was food allergy diagnosed? Do you know that only about 5 to 10% of dog allergies are to food?

http://www.WorkingDogForum.com/vBulletin/f25/allergies-19949/index2.html#post266797

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f25/food-allergies-raw-diet-17627/#post226919

http://www.WorkingDogForum.com/vBulletin/f25/crazy-itchy-12920/#post151663

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f25/all-you-raw-feeders-here-12015/index7.html#post152341


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

I was going between enviromental or food. I contacted the breeder and they have not noted any enviromental issues. Not saying it still couldn't be but.....
The pup was doing alot of chin/face scratching, ears are inflammed and a mess, then started the foot licking (which made me think it was a grass allergy but when I was on the farm the pup was eating the farm dogs' kibble and on grass pretty much 24/7 but the foot licking and scratching subsided). Then he started passing blood, not bright red but not digested either. I started thinking he had injested some woood, metal, or something off his toys and was passing the item.
All the other dogs started licking his butt and his lips and would pin him down and lick his feet, too. 
I still wasn't twigging to a food allergy until I started asking around. Those people who had had dogs with food allergies slapped me up the head and told me to look at his diet.
When I did that I realized I was in the process of moving the pup's diet over to my normal dogs food. I was blending in those foods with his puppy chow. When I removed the puppy chow entirely, it literally exploded with hugh reactions. By now, I'm looking back and seeing clue after clue but it wasn't registering because I had never had a dog with any allergy problems before. One of the clues is that the pup was eating less and less. It was like he figured out the kibble was making him sick or something. He would troll the other dogs' bowls eating out the wet food or green beans, counter surfing to no end (and before then he didn't) eating any and everything else he could find.
If you put just kibble in the bowl, he would sniff it and go sit under the table watching everyone else eat. I put him on Merrick buffalo and potato and the symptoms fell dramatically. No more rectal bleeding, everyone stopped licking his feet, and the scratching almost disappeared and the ears were clearing up until I opened a sack of the duck version. Explosion city. Within 18 hrs, it was skin redness, massive scratching at the face and lips, ears almost swollen shut. 

When I went back and looked at the other foods it was the stuff containing or lack thereof of the duck or lamb. 

I put him back on his Diamond Puppy this morning and the dog sniffed it and then fell on the bowl eating like a starving dog (which I guess he was in a way). So that's kinda where we are at.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

I've also started him on an antihistamine and got some of the allergic reaction under control but the poor pup is not feeling great.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

_" I put him on Merrick buffalo and potato and the symptoms fell dramatically. No more rectal bleeding, everyone stopped licking his feet, and the scratching almost disappeared and the ears were clearing up ... "_


Did you try putting him back on this?

Inappetance, rectal bleeding, ears badly affected .... I'd probably be making a derm vet appointment.

But I'm thinking that if this food started today shows immediate improvement, and the improvement persists even with withdrawing the antihistamine, then maybe it _was _the new food.


I'm not a health professional.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

out of curiosity why would you not consider a raw natural diet?


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

I've tried it before and it's to much bother, lack of storage space for the food, and difficulty in maintaining when traveling.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Sarah Platts said:


> I've tried it before and it's to much bother, lack of storage space for the food, and difficulty in maintaining when traveling.


I know it can be a pain in the ass sometimes... I was just curious ,,, Im a big believer in just because Ive watched it for years and its awesome. But im past being a "raw preacher" LOL ... dang I hope you can tackle that issue for that pup,,


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Did you try putting him back on this?
> 
> Inappetance, rectal bleeding, ears badly affected .... I'd probably be making a derm vet appointment.
> 
> But I'm thinking that if this food started today shows immediate improvement, and the improvement persists even with withdrawing the antihistamine, then maybe it _was _the new food.


I didn't because of the similarities of the kibble base. Figured if I got him back on his puppy food it would flush the other stuff out of his system faster. Then plan on trying back on the Merrick Buffalo. The other option is the Diamond Natural's line. Which shares alot of similarities with his puppy food. I had not orginally gone with that because I was trying to slow his growth down because he was/is growning to fast.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Have you thought of yeast infection? I'm thinking if it's attacked its ears maybe and they smell?


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Have you thought of yeast infection? I'm thinking if it's attacked its ears maybe and they smell?


When he was scratching I was doing ear treatments and then wondering why it wasn't going away. There was no real smell. Ears are fairly clean. So that plus lack of response to standard treatments makes me think it's not that.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I had a dog who had severe issues with chicken in his dog food. Found that out after a trial with Hills Z/D then elimination diet adding proteins in one at a time.

Duck gives my dog loose stools, but no allergy issues. Everything else seems fine though I stay away from lamb and venison during the hot months and lean towards fish and bison or beef (grass fed) during the summer. I steer clear of chicken given the diet of GMO laden corn which most commercial chicken is fed.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

_The symptoms of food allergies are similar to those of most allergies seen in dogs and cats. *The primary symptom is itchy skin *affecting primarily the face, feet, ears, forelegs, armpits and the area around the anus. Symptoms may also include chronic or recurrent ear infections, hair loss, excessive scratching, hot spots, and skin infections that respond to antibiotics but reoccur after antibiotics are discontinued. There is evidence that dogs with food allergies may sometimes have an increased incidence of bowel movements. One study showed that non-allergic dogs have around 1.5 bowel movements per day where some dogs with food allergies may have 3 or more per day._
from Drs Foster and Smith at PetEducation.com

This was off Connie's post and it fits the pup to a "T". Even the increased pooping. That dog was hitting the door 6-8 times a day to go take a dump. Just wished I had started putting the clues together faster but better late than never. I think the blood passing was due to the gut getting raw and irritated by the allergy. 

The pup update is that when I got home yesterday the pup was bouncy and eager to head out for a woods run. Only saw him scratch twice last night and that was behind the shoulders. Still tender with the ears but the swelling was down dramatically. The claw marks on his chin are scabbed over so the face itchiness is pretty much gone. The other dogs are leaving him alone too which is a good sign. I gave him another 25mg cap of benadryl last night in his food but none this morning. I also put some dexameth drops in his ears last night to help the swelling and one is almost back to normal and the other is just slightly puffy. Still loves a good overall body scratch but lacks the frantic-ness of a serious itch. I dosed his ears again this morning before I left for work.

Still looking at the protein as the causitive agent. Looking back none of my dogs have cared for the Merrick Duck version although they all like the Buffalo. But I hesitate to experiment to see if thats it because I hate to put the pup through the potential of repeated yo-yo-ing bouts of feeling ucky and then having to take 2 weeks to get his system all soothed back down.


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## Pat Vaughn (Jan 10, 2010)

you might want to have an allergy test done. it covers environmental irritants as well as food. it is very simple. the vet draws blood, has it tested, and the results are back w/in a week or so. gives you the ability to deal with the issue w/o trying to work through food elimination. worked for me.
good luck with getting the pup sorted out.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Pat Vaughn said:


> you might want to have an allergy test done. it covers environmental irritants as well as food. it is very simple. the vet draws blood, has it tested, and the results are back w/in a week or so. gives you the ability to deal with the issue w/o trying to work through food elimination. worked for me.
> good luck with getting the pup sorted out.


How does the blood test work? And if you don't mind me asking how much did they charge you for it? I'm familiar with skin testing with allergens but doing a blood test is something new for me. Are they measuring the level of antigens in the blood to determine the allergy? Like the more antigen markers for a particular item the more potential for an allergic reaction?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

_"How does the blood test work [for food allergies]?"_

It doesn't. I know that blood tests to identify food allergies are done all the time, but they are not useful for food allergies. I'm sure Pat was told this by a vet, which is common, so of course accepted, but GP vets are usually in over their heads with atopy and other allergies. Witness the fact that the first response to pruritis is so often a new food from the waiting room, when the fact is, the allergy is FAR more likely to be flea allergy dermatitis (#1) or environmental/inhalant (#2). Food is a far distant third.

Derm is a specialty for a good reason: it's a big and complicated field.

Back to blood tests. Blood tests, including RAST and ELISA, are not useful for FOOD allergens for dogs, but can be moderately helpful for diagnosing atopy, or environmental/inhalant allergies (and ELISA has improved significantly for atopy in recent years). For atopy, the gold standard remains the intradermal testing Sarah mentions above -- "scratch" tests -- and even that is about 70 to 75% accurate, and not at all for FOOD. It remains true that only a strict elimination diet (usually followed by a challenge) can reliably identify food allergens in dogs.

The ELISA (blood) test is pervasive in its use for food allergies, but that doesn't make it accurate. 

I have a shelf full of small-animal derm manuals, and not a one differs (except in the exact verbiage) from the following quote from Doctors Foster and Smith. And you can see how hard they are working to counter the lingering ideas about blood tests for food allergies:
_
"Blood Testing: There is no evidence that blood tests are accurate for the diagnosis of food allergies. *Veterinary dermatologists insist that there is no merit in these tests whatsoever in the diagnosis of food allergies.* *The only way to accurately diagnose food allergies is with a food trial as detailed above.* While the intradermal skin testing is excellent for diagnosing atopy (inhalant allergies) it is ineffective for food allergies. *While specialized blood tests can be used to help in the diagnosis of atopy, they have no benefit in diagnosing food allergies. *In our review of all the current books and articles on veterinary dermatology and allergies, we could not find a single dermatologist that endorsed anything other than the food trial as an effective diagnostic aid. *If you want to diagnose and treat food allergies you must do a food trial*."_
http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=2+2111&aid=143


also
_
"There’s only one way to diagnose food allergies accurately, and that is an elimination diet and challenge."_
http://pets.webmd.com/dogs/guide/caring-for-a-dog-that-has-food-allergies

and
_
"A restricted dietary trial must be performed to accurately diagnose a food allergy in your dog. This is called an 'elimination trial' ... "_
http://cvm.msu.edu/hospital/service...vice-1/client-education/canine-food-allergies

and _
"There is no reliable diagnostic test other than a strict food elimination diet. Serologic testing and intradermal testing for food allergens have proved unreliable."_
The Merck Veterinary Manual in "Overview of Food Allergy"

and 
_"Allergies are a challenge to diagnose, and of the three main kinds — fleas, food, and the environment — food is the toughest. The signs are variable: Some pets show no signs other than chronic ear infections. Others itch so badly we think they have scabies, while still others lick their paws non-stop. The signs are very similar to those seen in other disease processes, and there is no one definitive sign that screams, “Change my food!” .... There is only one way to diagnose a food allergy, and that is by putting your pet on an elimination diet. *There is no blood test, no skin test, no other way to do it.* In short, you put the pet on a hypoallergenic diet and see if they get better."_
a vet blog on https://www.petfinder.com/dogs/dog-health/pet-food-allergies-elimination-diets/

The description of a true elimination diet (which is useful only if carefully and methodically done) in that section is well worth reading, too. (I have gone the novel protein route, rather than the hydrolyzed-soy route. BTW, this is the reason I always mention holding back a couple of available proteins when raising a dog whose diet you control from birth .... because "novel" means the dog has never once eaten it.)


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Connie, I love it when you can respond. You give soooo much good info.

The pup is becoming his normal obnoxious irritating self so I know he's feeling much better. Still scratching on one ear but the other is almost normal. The poops are no longer cow flops and he's down to a sensible number. 

Although I hate to do it, I think you are right and I will have to challenge the diet. When you do that are you picking a kibble that uses only that protein or do you feed that protein separatly (aka do I go out and kill the fatted lamb?). Or go to the raw food freezer and grab out a couple of chubs of duck?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Sarah Platts said:


> ... Although I hate to do it, I think you are right and I will have to challenge the diet. When you do that are you picking a kibble that uses only that protein or do you feed that protein separatly (aka do I go out and kill the fatted lamb?). Or go to the raw food freezer and grab out a couple of chubs of duck?


No challenge until a several-weeks-long elimination diet. If a challenge is done, it's after the elimination diet, when the dog is COMPLETELY symptom-free (and not done if he is not). It's when you add back the offending food(s) one at a time to prove the apparent trial results. 

Choosing a commercial food would require considering only limited-ingredient-novel-protein foods (ingredients he has never even tasted, even in a treat or as a med flavoring) OR a hydrolyzed-soy food (the protein molecules are so small that they aren't recognized and attacked by the immune system).

This page presents a pretty good discussion of the elimination diet. Scroll down to _Homemade novel protein diets_ and then the two sections immediately following.
http://veterinarycalendar.dvm360.com/avhc/content/printContentPopup.jsp?id=717422

(You will probably have to enlarge the page.)


I'd rather do the trial under a derm vet's supervision (partly because symptoms may dictate a different order of which types of allergies, including atopy, which a food-allergic dog may also have, to I.D.). So if you do it on your own, please remember to be extremely strict so as not to sully the results. This means no treats made of a different protein from the one in the diet, no flavored meds, no access to other animals' food, and so on. And also, keep another novel (or hydrolyzed) diet held back in case of non-success and a second test needed with a derm vet. (Can you tell that I've been there, done this, more times that I would like? :lol: )


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

My problem is getting a protein he hasn't had before as the novel protein. The Merrick Buffalo contains buffalo, pork, turkey, fish. The Diamond is all chicken. Some of the other kibbles contained beef. He's eaten or snacked on deer, lamb, camel, and ostrich. Beef pizzle sticks, rawhide - pork and beef. I'll have to hit the feed store this weekend and see what's available. Also need to pick up more puppy chow if that's what he's going to be on or some kind of hypo diet till he heals up. This sucks.....


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Sarah Platts said:


> My problem is getting a protein he hasn't had before as the novel protein. The Merrick Buffalo contains buffalo, pork, turkey, fish. The Diamond is all chicken. Some of the other kibbles contained beef. He's eaten or snacked on deer, lamb, camel, and ostrich. Beef pizzle sticks, rawhide - pork and beef. I'll have to hit the feed store this weekend and see what's available. Also need to pick up more puppy chow if that's what he's going to be on or some kind of hypo diet till he heals up. This sucks.....


This is a big problem with all the dog foods that use exotic proteins mixed in with regular foods these days.

Buffalo, for example, would never be something I'd feed as a regular diet: it's readily available, and not present in treats and meds or as filler protein in other-named foods ....IOW, a very good protein to hold in reserve for just such a situation. Camel and ostrich .... crazy (IMO) to be included in regular diets for the same reasons.

Off the soapbox. LOL



Don't forget to read every ingredient. They are OFTEN not all on the front label.



There is kangaroo, but I'd be very careful with the elimination diet using that, because to my recollection, that may be the only one you have left besides the hydrolyzed RX diets.

(Once the dog eats it, it's no longer a "novel" protein for this dog, for this purpose. "Novel," in this meaning, is strictly individual to the dog, of course.)


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## Pat Vaughn (Jan 10, 2010)

now i'm confused. when i got the allergy tests back it clearly stated that enya was allergic to a host of plants (all listed) and it listed the food allergies. chicken, lamb, white of eggs, grains (many), and several other foods. hmmmmmmm? was i duped?

she's eating TOTW salmon and doing well. she still suffers from seasonal environmental allergies but there's nothing i can do about that. 

the test cost right at $100.00.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Not just you ... chances are (IMO) that the GP vet was sold on the ELISA test for food allergies.

One of its big problems as used to I.D. food allergens is its huge number of false positives.







P.S. There are indeed things you can do for seasonal allergies. One, as with all allergies, is to remove as much of the allergen as possible from the dog's living space (similar to eliminating fleas for a dog with F.A.D. or eliminating the offending protein for a dog with food allergies).

For example, the dog can walk through a pan of clean water and then have her paws blotted dry (no water left between toes, which would create a perfect venue for yeast takeover) after every outing on lawns/meadows. The dog can be bathed (never with a "people" shampoo) often and rinsed very well (another way to flush pollen, etc., down the drain).

These steps have nothing to do with contact allergies, which are relatively rare in dogs ... they are all about keeping seasonal allergens outside and not inside, on her fur and paws, and from there to carpets and blankets, where she breathes them 24/7.



There's also trials of the best-history antihistamines, of course. (Hydroxyzine and chlorpheniramine have better success rates than Benadryl, but of course if Benadryl works for the individual dog, then success rates are irrelevant.)

And there's fish oil and E for anti-inflammation benefits.

I don't want to derail this food-allergy thread, but anyone who wants to start one about atopy or flea allergy dermatitis is certainly more than welcome to do so.


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## Pat Vaughn (Jan 10, 2010)

thanks for the info. i'm giving fish oil, E, & frequent baths but never thought of the walk through the water idea. i use benadryl but may try the others mentioned. again, thanks.





*
Note from Connie*: Large unscented baby or dog wipes can stand in, too, between bath/rinse/paw-wash.

I also want to add this (about being "duped") ....


This is JMO: I think that many GP vets do the best they can with allergy issues, but are no more equipped to deal with complicated allergy issues than they are equipped to be the best resource for any other vet specialty. If they were, there would be no medical specialties. (And only someone who has owned allergic dogs understands the frustration, misery, and secondary conditions that allergies trigger.)

I have found, over many years (decades) of adopting dogs with medical probs (allergies being over-represented), that continuing taking an allergic dog to a GP vet after a visit or two has been unsuccessful is like pouring money into a bottomless hole.

Yes, a derm vet's cost can cause sticker shock. Definitely. But if a couple of visits with a good, experienced derm vet is going to get results, then how can it compare to a year (or years) of constant GP vet visits, and a dog who is still miserable, with recurring ear infection and/or yeast and bacterial skin infections (not to mention itching that steals quality of life)?

IMHO, the biggest villain of the piece is the Hills-Science Diet crowd. From them, decades ago, came the idea of lamb being, somehow, an "allergy food." 

Yes, of course, there was a time, long ago, when lamb was novel to most kibble-fed dogs. That time is long gone. But the idea that a waiting-room food can be an allergy cure-all, despite the fact that food allergies are such a tiny part of dog allergies, has been perpetuated right through to today. Do we think that HillsPet is unaware of this huge gap between what they push and what the allergy facts are? I don't.

Again, this is JMO.




Anyway, for this thread, back to food allergies.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

I would almost rather tackle an enviromental allergy instead of a diet one 

One of my dogs is very sensitive to fleas and after trying all the topical shampoos and applications finally bit the bullet and stuck everyone on Comfortis. 

It would be nice if they could come up with a blood test but after Connie posted her stuff I went on a reading spree and the inaccuracy rate of the blood test is.... well, ..... not real good. Most GPs are not up on a specialty area unless they are interested in it. Sad to say that because of the amount of schooling it takes to be a vet but I've run into more mediocre ones than good ones. There was one office that DX'd one of my dogs TWICE with a torn ACL (which I totally disagreed with) and went to a second GP vet who was more ortho inclined who DX'd correctly. No, the dog didn't have a torn (or even partially torn) ACL but they were all set to schedule surgery. There's no way I would take an allergy question to them.

Still working on the mechanics of how I'm going to do the elimination diet thing. Because of the way I house my dogs, it's hard to put just one dog on a special diet without putting them all on the same diet.
I used the benadryl because that's all I've ever hear the dog folks say to use. I don't have the Atarax (hydroxyzine) but I do have the CTM (chlorphenaramine) because I use that on myself. I'll try that the next time.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Sarah Platts said:


> ... It would be nice if they could come up with a blood test but after Connie posted her stuff I went on a reading spree and the inaccuracy rate of the blood test is.... well, ..... not real good. ...


I know that you specifically mean for food allergies, but still want to point out that _"Blood tests, including RAST and ELISA, are not useful for FOOD allergens for dogs, but can be moderately helpful for diagnosing atopy, or environmental/inhalant allergies (and ELISA has improved significantly for atopy in recent years)"_ (as I posted earlier). 

The ELISA test presents a ton of false positives in dogs. However, in the last decade or so, it has been improved. As I understand it, it is now pretty accurate in IDing several common dog allergens, including Mugwort, Tyrophagus putrescentiae (sometimes called "mold mite"), Dermatophagoides farinae (dust mites), Acarus siro (storage mites), and ragweed. (This doesn't mean it doesn't still present many false positives or that it's accurate in IDing the many other possible allergens.) Again, this is my understanding from the publications I subscribe to, and they are not all even as enthusiastic as the above.

But as Doctors Foster and Smith (and small animal derm manuals) say about ELISA for atopy:

_"The RAST and ELISA tests, however, are used in special circumstances in which intradermal skin testing cannot be performed .... Of all of the blood tests performed, the ELISA is the most accurate, and if a blood test must be used then this is the one the author recommends performing. ... Intradermal skin testing is the gold standard of allergy testing for atopy."
_ http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=2+2111&aid=504

Intradermal, the "gold standard" for atopy testing, can be as high as 75% accurate. 

And then, of course, comes treatment (or, best of all, if possible, removing the offending allergen from the dog's living space). 

(None of this post refers to food allergy testing.)


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Guess it's time for an update. To date Gus is allergic to duck, pork, alpo and pedigree can foods. He's not allergic to beef, buffalo, chicken, or fish. The jury is still out on lamb because when I tried that (I had a sack of the Diamond Natural with lamb already) both Gus and another of my dogs showed up with allergy signs. The other dog Ben, I know is not allergic to lamb so I'm thinking it was the kibble since this is the second time I've seen allergy signs using it when I should not have. Guess all the herbal stuff is some of the problem. 
The pork allergy was a bit of surprise because I was not expecting that since he had not really been exposed to it before my elimination diet. I need to still test the lamb and I picked up some chubs of rabbit and venison which I think will be the last of my testable proteins. I have one more type of Diamond Natural which is the Extreme Athlete formula that I can test to see what happens. It's chicken based so if that pops positive, then I know its the kibble base because no one is allergic to chicken. I also picked up some Old Roy canned food on a whim just to see what happens.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Sarah Platts said:


> Guess it's time for an update. To date Gus is allergic to duck, pork, alpo and pedigree can foods. He's not allergic to beef, buffalo, chicken, or fish. The jury is still out on lamb because when I tried that (I had a sack of the Diamond Natural with lamb already) both Gus and another of my dogs showed up with allergy signs. The other dog Ben, I know is not allergic to lamb so I'm thinking it was the kibble since this is the second time I've seen allergy signs using it when I should not have. Guess all the herbal stuff is some of the problem.
> The pork allergy was a bit of surprise because I was not expecting that since he had not really been exposed to it before my elimination diet. I need to still test the lamb and I picked up some chubs of rabbit and venison which I think will be the last of my testable proteins. I have one more type of Diamond Natural which is the Extreme Athlete formula that I can test to see what happens. It's chicken based so if that pops positive, then I know its the kibble base because no one is allergic to chicken. I also picked up some Old Roy canned food on a whim just to see what happens.



_
"He's not allergic to beef, buffalo, chicken, or fish." _

How long was the dog on each of these with zero itchy skin, etc.?






P.S.
I assume that what you're listing are challenges after a successful elimination diet? 

Many of what you list are not appropriate challenges because they contain far too many potential allergens. Alpo, as just one example, with its corn meal, gluten, soy, unnamed meat "digest," peas, etc., contains maybe 7 or 8 protein ingredients (likely potential allergens). If a dog reacts to Alpo, you haven't learned anything useful. All you know is that it could be one of many ingredients.

An elimination diet, too, is supposed to be composed SOLELY of a couple of ingredients the individual dog has never eaten before. That is, limited ingredients, novel to the individual dog. Alpo and Ol' Roy and in fact most kibbles and cans are not at all limited enough to contain only ingredients the dog has NEVER eaten.

The limited elimination diet, with no treats of another ingredient, no meaty meds, no stolen food from another dog's bowl, etc., etc., if it results in a symptom-free dog, indicates that there was (is) a food allergy and that withdrawing the allergen ended the symptoms. Then challenges are done one ingredient at a time.

I wouldn't continue challenging with multi-ingredient foods because they can't tell you what the specific allergen(s) might be.

If he was actually symptom-free on beef, buffalo, chicken, and fish, then I'd rather feed him beef, buffalo, chicken, and fish than continue to throw more ingredient lists into the mix. (Diamond Natural with Lamb, no less than other foods you list, has a LONG ingredient list with several proteins and can't possibly isolate a lamb allergy when it contains other proteins besides lamb. Remember that peas, corn, eggs, soy, and a boatload of other ingredients do contain protein and are potential allergens, not to mention being far from novel. "Novel" means ingredients the individual dog has _never eaten_ and therefore could not have formed allergen-specific IgE antibodies against them..)


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

I see your point but I have to kinda work with what I have. What I am seeing is that Gus reacts within 18 hours if fed sole source and within 5-7 days if fed kibble based. My methods might not be the ideal and not perfect but its getting me some answers. Connie, I know this probably wants to make you rip your hair out and bang your head against the wall..... ](*,)Sorry.....

I can't do the one item at a time scenario. Because of the way I feed my dogs, what one eats, they all eat so it becomes a cost and time issue.

For the fish, he was on that for several weeks getting him back to normal. Initially I was using Merritt Pork kibble and was using that as a baseline until I realized that was not working after 5 days of symptoms worsening. Then I switched to TOW Fish kibble which the breeder was feeding him as a pup before I bought him. The Merritt Buffalo was for about 4 weeks and before that for 2 months. The Merritt Texas Beef I'm still feeding 2-3 weeks later without issue (which contains lamb meal which is one reason I don't think he's allergic to lamb). Before that he was eating the Merritt Texas Beef cans for several weeks - which don't contain lamb - without issue. I fed him 2 cans of Merritt Duck wet food and had to put him on Benadryl before he ripped his face off. Same with the Merritt Pork wet food. 

I lumped the alpo and pedigree wet in together because I don't know what the allergen is and I'm not going to pick through those lists but it was what I was buying before I got Gus. I bought in bulk and still have some tucked under my bed. But he breaks out just licking the residue from the cans or if he steals from the other pans. I was trying to use what I had already bought on the other dogs. He's not allergic to any grains or soy products that I have been able to determine.

His Diamond Puppy food is chicken based and had no problem with that product for months so I'm *assuming* all the ingredients in that are fine, Same with the other kibble foods I tried without issue. A lot of the ingredients cross over between the brands ( I know because I went through the ingredients lists crossing off all that each had in common with the kibble that didn't have any problems. I know that 4-6 weeks may not be enough of a testing time but he reacts pretty fast if he has any initial problem with it. True this may change if I feed him for longer periods but I can at least cross some stuff off my shopping list now. I guess the reason, I'm feeding a lot of everything is because so much does cross over.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

I get limitations.

What would bother me is accepting conclusions based on wildly flawed methods. 
_
"His Diamond Puppy food is chicken based and had no problem with that product for months so I'm *assuming* all the ingredients in that are fine"_

You cannot assume that at all. *True (IgE) allergies develop on repeated exposure. * A food the dog has NEVER EATEN cannot produce an allergic (IgE-mediated) response. ONLY foods that he has eaten in the past can, because ONLY foods he has eaten in the past can already have triggered IgE (and IgG) responses. Think of this response as something that cannot happen until the protein food and the mast cells have met. This is why an elimination diet consists of ONLY ingredients the dog has NEVER EATEN.

If I were stuck with this seriously flawed (I would say useless) method of eliminating and then challenging, then I would grab the results I thought and hoped I had found and use them. 

That is, if he was actually symptom-free on beef, buffalo, chicken, and fish, then I'd feed him (and everyone) beef, buffalo, chicken, and fish.


It's important, first, though ....... how long was he symptom-free on beef, buffalo, chicken, and fish?

Was it a significant length of time? 

If so, then I would definitely go with that. You cannot get actual useful information on these multi-ingredient canned and kibbled foods containing many protein sources.


Believe me, I get how complicated this is. I'm trying to make it less so.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

The Diamond Puppy food and Performance, Merritt Buffalo, and TOW fish were for, what I would consider sufficient, time, in some cases several months or 4-6 weeks at a minimum. I can understand what you mean by flaws but my feeling was if the kibble base is the same in a particular brand line and all you are changing is the protein part of that line, then why would this not be acceptable? So through the Merritt line I'm using and the only thing I see changing on the ingredient list is the protein then it seems logical to me what is causing the problem.
The same thing with Diamond, and the same thing with TOW. The only problem I see are the canned foods which are harder to pin down with wording like 'meat by-products' which could be anything from horse, to elephant, or anything else fleshy.
Yes, I plan on sticking with a basic line of food but I do like to know because I do travel and sometimes have to buy the food when I get to where I'm going (can't carry it with me) and I would like to have as few surprises as I can. That pork was a surprise to me and something I like knowing. Since I goofed this last week and threw out some new chews and didn't think about WHAT chews I was throwing out. Gus shows up with face scratching and swollen ears and I was wondering what he had gotten into when it dawned on me I threw out PiggyRope chews and it's all pork hide. Duh! So I have to watch the table scraps too because of that. No problems with any beef or rawhide chews.


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

Wow! Sarah, are these the only foods you're able to use for your testing? Those commercial foods can kill a healthy dog slowly, but surely. Connie already mentioned that, "almost any dog will exhibit allergies" to that stuff (crap). Ur results will be flawed for sure. Smh. If you really care for the internal and overall health of your animals, you'll seek other, perhaps more natural alternatives to the stuff you're using. You'll save a lot more in vet costs alone. Consider it. Good luck with your dogs.


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## Alex Whitelock (Jan 28, 2009)

Sarah, dogs can be allergic or intolerant of any food. Try selecting 1 protein with 1 simple carb like beef/rice or kangaroo/potato. Feed only this 1 protein for 6 weeks unless symptoms flare in which case switch the protein.
Be very careful that pup eats absolutely nada for 6 weeks. Allow its system to calm...using very low levels of prednisone can help speed this along...clean ears with non alchohol product and vet might have to sedate to truly get all the malesia yeast cleaned out...it can feed on itself.
Try canned if needed vs kibble and yes, I do love raw but if dog has issue with lets say chicken, it won't matter if it is in kibble form or raw.
I had a dog with horrible food sensitivities and some environmental ones. Finally conceded and fed a horribly expensive hidrolyzed protein by Royal Canin (did NOT like Hill's) - this breaks down the size of the protein molecules so dogs system does not recognize them.
I had spent $$$ with holistic vets, tried every protein known to man, raw...and whatever he ate for 6 weeks he developed a huge issue with. This to my surprise worked perfectly.
Good luck. Oh, there are antifungal shampoos from vets that help clear the skin/itchiness...skin is the largest organ and toxins are expelled thru the skin hence all the scratching.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Well, I'm not going the raw or holistic route. I've seen as many problems with those routes as any others but those roads are not for me. The way I feed my dogs necessitates if one dog goes on a food, they ALL are going on the same food. So cost is an issue and I'm not going to buy some horribly expensive special diet so that's out. Right now I have 3 kibble foods (from 3 different lines beyond Ol' Roy or Purina's Come and Get It) that appear good with the pup. I have not had to put him on steroids or fungal products yet. Normally a day or two of Benadryl is enough until the bulk clears from the intestinal tract. I've used laser treatments to help the ears clear up faster but they get more swollen than yeasty so *that* hasn't been bad so far. 
German Shorthairs are fairly healthy dogs. Vet costs have been minimal beyond accidents or injuries and the yearly exam. I'm not one of those folks who drag their dog to the vet for every little thing. My years of farm animal and street medic training lets me take care of most routine issues. The dog vet has commented to me that he sees the unusual or 'never before seen' when he deals with me. I told him that if it was easy, I wouldn't be in his office. To date, Gus has been my most expensive dog and that was mostly due to his purchase cost. Other than buying different foods to test on him he hasn't cost me *that* much but it's not a total loss as my neighbor is taking the rejects for her dogs.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

I just wanted to clarify why allergies (from environmental to food) trigger itchiness in dogs*:*

Humans have most of their histamine receptors in the mucus membranes, but dogs have most of theirs in the skin. (Ear linings are skin, too.)


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

_"I do love raw but if dog has issue with lets say chicken, it won't matter if it is in kibble form or raw."_

This is exactly correct, with a true allergy. (I'm not talking here about sensitivity or intolerance, such as to injected "flavor enhancers" and so on. Intolerance can and often is just as much of a problem as true allergy, though, and much of what we've talked about here applies to both.)


_
" ... almost any dog will exhibit allergies to that stuff (crap)."_

I don't recall saying that almost any dog will exhibit allergy symptoms to the cheapo foods that are loaded with corn and soy and byproduct (or, in fact, any food with multiple potential allergens). Not sure what I did say, but what I meant was that these foods are so loaded with different potential allergens that it's not possible to draw a conclusion about which allergen it is if the dog reacts to them. 

(Most dogs don't have food allergies, and a terrible cheapo food won't trigger the development of IgE antibodies in a dog who is not allergy-prone. [This might be a good place to say that there's a big heritable factor in being allergy-prone; breeding such a dog is, IMO, a bad move.] Still, a worst-of-the-worst food might contain ingredients that dogs might have intolerance or sensitivity to. [Believe me, this isn't a vote for crap-in-a-bag foods at all .... it's only about the fact that a food allergen -- an allergen to the individual dog -- is going to trigger symptoms whether it's in a very expensive top-drawer food or the cheapest crappiest food in the store.])



Except for the hydrolyzed protein* foods, described perfectly by Alex, a food the dog is not allergic to does *not* have to be expensive. It has to exclude the ingredient(s) the individual dog is allergic (or sensitive) to.

And the only way to be certain of which ingredient that is, is a strict elimination diet followed, when there are no symptoms left, by careful and methodical challenges (adding in an ingredient, one at a time, slowly, to see if the symptoms return).

The food (limited ingredient, usually one novel [meaning the individual dog has never eaten it] meat or fish and one other novel item may be more expensive than usual, but it's not necessarily meant to be the food he eats forever.

When (if) the problem ingredient is determined via the STRICT elimination diet with a result of no symptoms, followed by the careful adding back in, one at a time, of the "challenge" ingredients, to determine which one causes the symptoms, then any food that doesn't contain the individual dog's problem ingredients can be chosen.




I learned long ago that a good derm vet saves money in the long run, despite the initial sticker shock. 


Also learned, sadly, that the faster the allergens are identified, the less time there will be for expensive and miserable offshoots of allergies to develop. Repeated ear infections, staph and/or malassezia skin infections -- these and more very often accompany allergies in dogs.


All JMO!




*Hydrolyzed protein, protein broken into tiny particles that the immune system doesn't recognize as an allergen, is effective ... but it's very expensive and provides a limited diet with no variety. In the case of Alex's dog who developed food allergies to everything over time, it was most likely the best (maybe the only) solution. For most dogs, particularly if the protein used in it is novel to the dog, it can be a good elimination diet, followed when the dog is symptom-free by challenges to determine what the problem was/is.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Humans have most of their histamine receptors in the mucus membranes, but dogs have most of theirs in the skin. (Ear linings are skin, too.)


Thanks for this info. The big thing with me is getting the head slap when I forget the pork allergy. Just ran into it again when I dug the bologna out of the freezer for training this weekend. Frankly, I thought I would be smarter about this but I keep getting tripped up by the habits ingrained by the years of doing 'em. I had to dig out the Benadryl because I forgot the bologna I've been using for reward is pork based.....


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

It's been a while so thought I would give an update. Gus, to date, has no allergies to grains but is allergic to duck, turkey, lamb, and pork. It's amazing how much the dog food companies are blending proteins. Yeah, the label says chicken and potato but down about three ingredients you find stuff like lamb meal or turkey meal, or my favorite one "real pork flavoring". I was sticking with beef, chicken and fish. I was still getting episodes of face and ear scratching. My other dog Sam has taken to helping out Gus by scratching his face or helping him with his itchy ears. I switched him over totally to a new fish kibble and wet food (I was using TOW fish) and once it was sole source it appeared to have gotten slightly worse. I shifted everything over to chicken. (the kibble has always been chicken based but was using canned foods containing chicken, fish, or beef) so far, so good. Dog's sleeping like the dead now that he's not constantly waking up to scratch.

Sadly, the more I delve into his bloodlines the more I'm getting ticked off at breeders who breed these problems. And worse still that it's common knowledge among those in the circle that his base kennel line from Germany is known for having these issues. Oh, they will tell you fast enough AFTER you find out on your own but Gawd forbid they tell you before you find out for yourself. But they stud out or breed the bitches with these problems taking the gamble that it won't show up if the other side of the pedigree is clean enough. 
Then come up with excuse of its the owner's fault that the dog has food allergies, my personal favorite was when I was told that dogs develop food allergies if you don't rotate their foods on a frequent basis, but when I pointed out that most dogs remain YEARS on the same diet without problems, that part was ignored and the conversation moves on. O.K. rant over, now back to our regularly scheduled programming.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

_" Sadly, the more I delve into his bloodlines the more I'm getting ticked off at breeders who breed these problems. "_


Most dog allergies are not food allergies (as we have discussed many times) ... food allergies accounting for about 10% of dog allergies. Regardless, there's that 10%! This is a dog who is in that 10% (which, while relatively small, is a substantial number).

And also regardless, *all* allergies in dogs have a major heritable component. Bottom line, breeders who breed allergic dogs make me worse than ticked off.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Bottom line, breeders who breed allergic dogs make me worse than ticked off.


Me too, but was trying to be PG rated. What irritated me more was that my fears were downplayed or previous knowledge of this sorta thing was withheld until I finally figured it out and then it became "oh, yeah that issue has shown up before" or "Its a known problem..."''

The bad thing is this whole situation has tainted my feeling on whole quality of the breed club. I know that one of my first questions to any potential sources of my next sar dog will be ANY instances of allergies - in fact I plan on making it part of the stipulation of sale that if it shows up they will be getting the dog back and either I get a new pup or my money back.


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