# Prong Collars - Over use?



## Rob Maltese (Jan 8, 2014)

Read a recent post on another social media site in regards to the over use of prong collars on day to day training and how the dog builds up a resistance to it and it is no longer beneficial... What is your thoughts, do you agree? Is it possible to use it too often and the dog not respond appropriately? Is it the same with a remote collar?


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Rob Maltese said:


> Read a recent post on another social media site in regards to the over use of prong collars on day to day training and how the dog builds up a resistance to it and it is no longer beneficial... What is your thoughts, do you agree? Is it possible to use it too often and the dog not respond appropriately? Is it the same with a remote collar?


 Depends on what their definition of "over use" is.....You will find service dogs that wear a prong exclusively but never have issues or the degradation of effectiveness of the collar. I suppose a drivey dog will feel the wrath of a prong much more than an assistance dog. Then you have some dogs that are handler soft but bad guy hard. No need to hammer them with a prong on a regular basis. 

I'm guessing that you are drawing a parallel to martial arts guys who can kick palm trees down after years of building up or "deadening" nerves in the shins to the nerves in the dogs' neck being deadened in the same manner. My only issue is....if you are cracking a dog with a pinch so much that it deadens the nerves and dog builds resistance to prong then....it's time to try something else IMO.

How far off am I?


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## Rob Maltese (Jan 8, 2014)

Well this conversation was with someone who handled MWD's for quite sometime and said that dogs that wear prongs on a daily basis even if their not getting corrected lose obedience so to speak throughout time so they stop listening to verbal commands. 

Now to me, if a dog stops listening to verbal commands and is just being disobedient then they get a correction.


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

I disagree 110%. To me a pinch collar is nothing more than power steering . It enables me to give a much better correction than I am able to give with a choke. My working Mal wore a pinch every day and responded to it the same on the first day he wore it as the last day he worked the road. His obedience was flawless. 

What you will notice with extended use of the pinch (or a choke, or electric) is a dog that will become "collar wise". The dog will learn that you can give him a better correction with one "type" of collar and will behave differently as a result. This is a training issue and can be used to both your advantage or demise. :mrgreen: My Mal would not our worth a bean on a suit while wearing a choke. Simply place a pinch on him (no line attached) and he spits the suit like a champ. 

As for the verbal command problem mentioned in the thread.... That's all a training issue, has nothing to do with the collar itself. Often what I see is that the handler is creating a command somewhere along the way with the collar so the verbal command means nothing to the dog. Remember that physical means more to the dog than verbal so if the handler is giving a wee bit of pressure on the collar when he says "down" the pressure becomes the command not the verbal.


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## John Wolf (Dec 12, 2009)

No, I do no think there is an "over-use" of prong collars. I, however, do think there is an ignorance about using the collar that does lead to the dog building a resistance to it. I do not think it is a physical resistance (callusing, numbing, etc...) as much as it is a mental resistance. I think it goes back to the old saying "one good correction is worth a thousand nagging ones". I think that when dogs are constantly receiving nagging corrections, they are able to learn to withstand the minor correction and eventually they will get what they want. 

It can absolutely happen with the e-collar also. That is when you see people having to jack up their e-collars to max levels and still not getting desired results. It is because they slowly turned up the heat and the dog learned to work through it slowly but surely. It very, very rarely has anything to do with the dog being tough, and more about, in my opinion, incorrect use of the tool that leads to the demise of it's usefulness


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## Rob Maltese (Jan 8, 2014)

John Wolf said:


> It can absolutely happen with the e-collar also. That is when you see people having to jack up their e-collars to max levels and still not getting desired results. It is because they *slowly turned up the heat and the dog learned to work through it slowly but surely.* It very, very rarely has anything to do with the dog being tough, and more about, in my opinion, incorrect use of the tool that leads to the demise of it's usefulness


I think this is what's going on with my dog, he responds sometimes to 4-8 then sometimes 9-14 or more... Sometimes I will stim him at a 10 and he will yelp, is this because it caught him off guard or because it hurt him? Also with the prong collar sometimes he doesn't respond.

So how does one correct this issue if it has begun? Stronger corrections from the get go?


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## John Wolf (Dec 12, 2009)

Rob Maltese said:


> I think this is what's going on with my dog, he responds sometimes to 4-8 then sometimes 9-14 or more... Sometimes I will stim him at a 10 and he will yelp, is this because it caught him off guard or because it hurt him? Also with the prong collar sometimes he doesn't respond.
> 
> So how does one correct this issue if it has begun? Stronger corrections from the get go?


Probably not the answer you are looking for but: Give firm, but fair corrections that suit the drive level, temperament, and state of mind of the dog. This is part of the reason dog training is an art and not a science. There is no exact level of correction that will work for every dog in every situation. It is something that comes with experience and "feel". I give my dog a solid foundation in whatever behavior I desire. Once I feel he knows what is expected he will get firm correction for not performing said behavior to my specifications.


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## Rob Maltese (Jan 8, 2014)

John Wolf said:


> Probably not the answer you are looking for but: Give firm, but fair corrections that suit the drive level, temperament, and state of mind of the dog. This is part of the reason dog training is an art and not a science. There is no exact level of correction that will work for every dog in every situation. It is something that comes with experience and "feel". I give my dog a solid foundation in whatever behavior I desire. Once I feel he knows what is expected he will get firm correction for not performing said behavior to my specifications.


This is where I feel the need to reach out to a trainer I trust... Sometimes I feel like I give a good, firm correction but he doesn't correct his actions - Could this mean that he doesn't understand what's expected of him? 

We've gotten to the point around the house where he would get super testy and mouthy/biting with my other half so he would get very firm but fair corrections with the prong. For instance if he got to that point she would give 1 verbal command, 1 verbal correction - if no compliance there was a FIRM correction for the biting/mouthing and it has since pretty much stopped.

Maybe with my new finagled GoPro I will start taking some video and get some feedback from some folks.


**Off topic, I checked out the website in your signature - there are some dead links. PM me if you need more detail.


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## John Ly (Mar 26, 2014)

imo when you need to give a correction more than a couple of times for the same command then its time to take a step back. 

maybe the dog doesnt truly understand. maybe the dog only thinks it has to do the command in certain scenarios. maybe the dog isnt properly motivated?


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## John Wolf (Dec 12, 2009)

John Ly said:


> imo when you need to give a correction more than a couple of times for the same command then its time to take a step back.
> 
> maybe the dog doesnt truly understand. maybe the dog only thinks it has to do the command in certain scenarios. maybe the dog isnt properly motivated?


Agreed. =D>


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## Nick Hrycaj (Mar 30, 2014)

Rob, with ecollar work I have intermittent success when there is not good connection. Make sure its tight enough and the leads are the proper length. I haven't used them but have heard decent things about the spring loaded collar straps


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I think resistance can be built up with any collar/any method if it isn't presented properly.

Timing and consistency IMHO are two of the biggest reasons for the dogs to "loose obedience".

I think it's more about confusion on the dog's part as opposed to "loosing" anything or being stubborn to the commands.


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Mr Payne had a great video out were he is working his new dog on a platform. Gives the dog a command, dog acts like an asshat and gets a prong correction. Dog was still not in full compliance and quickly gets one upside the head. He was correct and clear after that. An excellent example of appropriate pressure escelation to achieve the desired result.


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## John Ly (Mar 26, 2014)

Haz Othman said:


> Mr Payne had a great video out were he is working his new dog on a platform. Gives the dog a command, dog acts like an asshat and gets a prong correction. Dog was still not in full compliance and quickly gets one upside the head. He was correct and clear after that. An excellent example of appropriate pressure escelation to achieve the desired result.


sure you get the results but do you get the nice "picture"? or do you get a dog sulking around just going through the motions. didn't you have this exact same problem with your female?

if it was just about pure results then just put the ecollar on and escalate until you have desired result.


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## Larry Krohn (Nov 18, 2010)

John Wolf said:


> No, I do no think there is an "over-use" of prong collars. I, however, do think there is an ignorance about using the collar that does lead to the dog building a resistance to it. I do not think it is a physical resistance (callusing, numbing, etc...) as much as it is a mental resistance. I think it goes back to the old saying "one good correction is worth a thousand nagging ones". I think that when dogs are constantly receiving nagging corrections, they are able to learn to withstand the minor correction and eventually they will get what they want.
> 
> It can absolutely happen with the e-collar also. That is when you see people having to jack up their e-collars to max levels and still not getting desired results. It is because they slowly turned up the heat and the dog learned to work through it slowly but surely. It very, very rarely has anything to do with the dog being tough, and more about, in my opinion, incorrect use of the tool that leads to the demise of it's usefulness


100% accurate.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Matthew Grubb said:


> I disagree 110%. To me a pinch collar is nothing more than power steering . It enables me to give a much better correction than I am able to give with a choke. My working Mal wore a pinch every day and responded to it the same on the first day he wore it as the last day he worked the road. His obedience was flawless.
> 
> What you will notice with extended use of the pinch (or a choke, or electric) is a dog that will become "collar wise". The dog will learn that you can give him a better correction with one "type" of collar and will behave differently as a result. This is a training issue and can be used to both your advantage or demise. :mrgreen: My Mal would not our worth a bean on a suit while wearing a choke. Simply place a pinch on him (no line attached) and he spits the suit like a champ.
> 
> As for the verbal command problem mentioned in the thread.... That's all a training issue, has nothing to do with the collar itself. Often what I see is that the handler is creating a command somewhere along the way with the collar so the verbal command means nothing to the dog. Remember that physical means more to the dog than verbal so if the handler is giving a wee bit of pressure on the collar when he says "down" the pressure becomes the command not the verbal.


I agree with all you say. In protection with the Briard, I could take him out of the box, do a short but precise heelwork with him off lead and them send him to the first blind. He didn't need the pinch collar for long - verbal commands sufficed.

With the older GSD, the pinch collar was the only way I could do protection at first. He definitely became collar wise but I also checked out his reactions to my verbal commands and when I found them slightly lacking, I strengthened them. My husband once said to me "that sounds more like a "pious wish" than a command!

To others:

I will not go into the type of pinch collars I use ever again but if a dog doesn't feel the need to obey when you tug on one, you probably have something that is no better than a choke collar.

John Wolf said:

"one good correction is worth a thousand nagging ones".

This is the true essence of dog training.


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## Larry Krohn (Nov 18, 2010)

Just like with the e collar too many folks go to the tool right away for corrections without ever teaching with the tool. The prong works incredible when the dog is taught how to turn off light pressure, just like e collar


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Larry,

Can you describe light pressure? I am assuming you are talking about blunt pinch collars?


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## Rob Maltese (Jan 8, 2014)

Nick Hrycaj said:


> Rob, with ecollar work I have intermittent success when there is not good connection. Make sure its tight enough and the leads are the proper length. I haven't used them but have heard decent things about the spring loaded collar straps


I've been meaning to look into these, I worked with a trainer out in Rhode Island a few times who marked my collar with a piece of tape to ensure the proper working tightness. I wouldn't mind checking out one of those bungee style collars would just rather pick up a reputable brand.



Gillian Schuler said:


> Larry,
> 
> Can you describe light pressure? I am assuming you are talking about blunt pinch collars?


I am fairly certain my dog will never need a sharpened prong collar, I believe this is just simply a case of handler error where I need to clean up my own skills. My dog isn't a show dog, he isn't a sport dog but I don't want a disobedient dog. I want to be able to take my dog in public and be an ambassador for the breed, I want people to go "wow he's a pitbull? he's very very well behaved. not what I would've expected".


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## Larry Krohn (Nov 18, 2010)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Larry,
> 
> Can you describe light pressure? I am assuming you are talking about blunt pinch collars?


Not at all Gillian. The prong is taught with light straight line pressure. The dog moves toward the pressure and the pressure is turned off with a reward following. NEPOPO. Most dogs can be moved around with two fingers in minutes, it's very simple. The prong pressure is taught, just like e collar pressure instead of only being used as a correction. Corrections have much less meaning when that is all the dog experiences


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

John Ly said:


> sure you get the results but do you get the nice "picture"? or do you get a dog sulking around just going through the motions. didn't you have this exact same problem with your female?
> 
> if it was just about pure results then just put the ecollar on and escalate until you have desired result.


Im talking about Wallace Payne..his results speak for themselves.

As for my female the issues surrounding expression have been largley resolved, she should be trial ready for spring barring some article indication issues. Also, yes I did end up giving her more of the stick when she got silly which cleared most of the inconsistencies up.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

John Ly said:


> sure you get the results but do you get the nice "picture"? or do you get a dog sulking around just going through the motions. didn't you have this exact same problem with your female?
> 
> if it was just about pure results then just put the ecollar on and escalate until you have desired result.




I think the nice "picture" is more about the trainer's ability to use the training tools correctly. 

It doesn't matter if it's a prong, choke, e-collar or motivational methods.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

got confused over definitions
- pinch vs prong, etc.

actually, this thread got more interesting once i went back and read thru it again....

my take is it is all about tools vs corrections

people start focusing on corrections and forget about the "tool" aspect

NO BRAINER that a dog learns what tool is used for what
collar - they GET IT - a collar means they are tethered //lol//
Ecollar - they GET IT - the box is quickly recognised when it's on their neck

similar for similar tools

of course they get conditioned to the tool

a tool that only gets appropriate behaviour when the tool is used means the dog was not proofed OFF the tool

i firmly believe that all tools should have a goal getting the same behavior when NOT being used
- iow......NO tool at all
** of course this is an impossible dream for most dogs

i've only seen ONE DOG in my life that had perfect behaviour in ANY situation with NO collar or lead  (a JRT btw)

applies to any collar, any length lead, etc etc 
Larry's comment came as close to what i am trying to say

if your use of an Ecollar, prong, lead, or whatever is always used with corrections, you're not doing a good job of getting the point across to the dog you are with......and it is not being TRAINED ;-)

PROOFING is the only way to measure progress, and imo it is not done enough, and often not even considered as part of the training plan

meaning : proofing is different from corrections

this probably doesn't make sense, but it's how i see it

it is easier to see this with a new owner, or an inexperienced owner, but i think it applies to all of us

use the K.I.S.S.method ---
just ask someone to take off their dog's collar/lead and see how it reacts to them. that will tell you what you need to know and will show you how well it's trained //lol//

so my answer to Rob is "yes"


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

one clarification :
i meant collar with a LEAD attached 

a bandanna is never seen as a collar to most every dog
but it sure knows the diff when a lead is snapped on //lol//


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## Larry Krohn (Nov 18, 2010)

rick smith said:


> got confused over definitions
> - pinch vs prong, etc.
> 
> actually, this thread got more interesting once i went back and read thru it again....
> ...


 well said Rick


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Rob Maltese said:


> I've been meaning to look into these, I worked with a trainer out in Rhode Island a few times who marked my collar with a piece of tape to ensure the proper working tightness. I wouldn't mind checking out one of those bungee style collars would just rather pick up a reputable brand.
> 
> 
> 
> I am fairly certain my dog will never need a sharpened prong collar, I believe this is just simply a case of handler error where I need to clean up my own skills. My dog isn't a show dog, he isn't a sport dog but I don't want a disobedient dog. I want to be able to take my dog in public and be an ambassador for the breed, I want people to go "wow he's a pitbull? he's very very well behaved. not what I would've expected".


Who mentioned sharpened prongs in this thread? 

I guess this is the difference between Europe and USA. Europe mostly use sharpened prongs as they cause less injury. Instead of always damning things, it would be a good idea to question their use.

Ambassador for the breed? I guess the breeder provides this.

In Switzerland we now cannot use any type of prong collar. We cannot even use a choke collar unless it is on a "dead" ring, as in IPO.


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## Rob Maltese (Jan 8, 2014)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Who mentioned sharpened prongs in this thread?
> 
> I guess this is the difference between Europe and USA. Europe mostly use sharpened prongs as they cause less injury. Instead of always damning things, it would be a good idea to question their use.
> 
> ...


Yes.Ambassador for the breed, unfortunately breeders don't provide much more then a really expensive over weight "show" dog. Pitbulls unfortunately have been given a terrible name over here in the states.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Rick said;

" proofing is different from corrections"

Absolutely!

Proofing is a constant, ongoing part of any training.


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