# Lessons learned...



## Misty Wegner

So today was yet another day where a big impact lesson was learned (the most recent prior to this one was during a pacing and bearing test.. Redid that suckered 4x!! Each time I knew I was doing everything correctly but I was way off.. Finally the deputy sheriff asked if my arm brace had metal in it... Yup.. I put my arm down to my side and shot my bearing, did my pace count and was 3meters off the spot... Stupid metal but lesson learned!) today while doing a 17hr aged double blind track.. 

Subject had left her scent article at the PLS overnight and was repositioned in the morning. When she laid the trail nobody was camping nearby. When I went to run the trail there was a campsite with people not more than 15ft away... Now this subject is a favored person for my girl and I should have noticed right then, that I didn't get the happy tail wag that showed she knew whom she was tracking.. I figured it was just due to the age of track and the conditions... It wasn't.. The scent article was contaminated by the campers and since there's was the freshest scent, off we went.. When I started getting a proximity alert uphill well away from where my subject could have been easily repositioned, I really questioned if she was on the correct trail.. She was pulling, there were fresh footprints in a remote trail and she would occasionally wag her tail and sniff shoulder height branches, or logs, so I know she was on a human scent... I broke the blind and confirmed my subject was not in that direction... I walked back to the PLS, and my girl would air scent in the direction of the camp... Confirmation was the tail wags at the people.. She is very aloof... 

I recast her minus a scent article across the river and told her to find so and so, her immediate head down happy tail wag and curl told me she had the track and off we went.. Huge scent pools and a bunch of branches (ugh) a and back across the river (me over a log, her through the water) and down another mile or so and to our subject... Almost dead on her actual laid track.... We ended up doing about 3.5miles instead of 1.2miles due to the wrong track backtracking and then the correct trail.. 

Lesson learned? ALWAYS BAGGIE YOUR SCENT ARTICLE, EVENTS WHEN YOU DON'T THINK SOMEONE WILL MUCK WITH IT (a sock? Who picks up a sock?!).. I had an urban trail, 17hr aged to run after that and I hadn't baggies that one either, but I made sure I had the first turn known so I could make sure my boy was on track with the right person, lol... Successful... 

OK, so what are your lessons learned?


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## Sarah Platts

For compass work: remember that there are power lines underground (as well as overhead). Folks who stood in a certain place to shoot the bearing were off several degrees while people shooting their bearing about 6 ft away, were right on. Took us to long to figure it out.

Scent articles: Never leave an article at the scene unless you hide it out of sight. You don't have to bag it but definitely hide it. Like you found out people pick up everything. Was doing some beta testing for a standard that had articles on the track. Who knew that when I went back 18 hours later walkers had picked up all but one. Ideally, I would not have the individual leave an item at all but hand it off to me beforehand.

I was training with another group and the scenario was this missing person had walked away. The trailing dog was called because a clothing item was found laying on the ground and the family had ID'd it as belonging to the subject. The people who found it had bagged it and left it sitting on the ground. The question is "Do you use it?" How much would you trust the item based on what just happened to you? 

There's a lot of lessons I've learned over the years. 

Trust your dog when his training gives you no reason to doubt him. I'm not saying dogs are infallible but if he's been right the last 20 times what are the odds he is wrong now? 

Learn to read your dog. 

Always wear your boots, you never know where you will end up at. 

Always wear your gloves, for the same reason. 

Learn to love your GPS. 

Learn to make scent pads. Use scent pads instead of carting the original scent article around with you.

If someone says the subject was seen heading in a certain direction. Don't believe it. I trust my dog before I trust an eyewitness when it comes to a DOT.

Don't put bug spray on your face. When you sweat it all runs into your eyes.

When the dog crosses over a snake, no big deal. It's the clumsy handler that tends to piss them off.

Mantrailing through brush: The dog goes under, the handler goes through, and the flanker gets the benefit of the path.

If you get woke up in the middle of the night for a callout, before you leave the driveway physically double-check that the dog is ACTUALLY in the vehicle.

Bring more water than you think you need.

Never forget your dog's reward

Never pass up an opportunity to eat, take a nap, or hit the bathroom. 

Silk longjohns are better than waffleweave thermals. Warm and if it gets wet, your body heat can dry it. Serves as a warm layer between your wet pants and your skin.

Don't overload your pack. Make every item you carry serve at least 2 functions.

Jogging in water-filled boots sucks.


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## Misty Wegner

Omgosh Sarah you had me laughing so hard on some of those!!! Great points and lessons learned (some I have already learned, others I hope your words of advice keep me from the mistake)! Oh so true about the flanker getting the clear path! I finally took the lead of my girl and let her work the scent pool in heavily forested small pine slag debris he'll.. Goodness I was figuring I was going to have an eye poked out and my leather line was actually snagging! 

Love the don't forget the dog!! Too funny!.... But I bet true .. 

Keep the lessons learned coming, I'm soaking them up!


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## Sarah Platts

I wasn't the one that forgot the dog but the story stuck with me. I have forgotten my tack box with all my harness, leads and such. Forgot to put it in when I loaded the dog. Had to jury rig a harness from a dog lead and luckily had another long line I was going to throw away for wear and tear still stuffed off to one side.

There was one time when I was still running the ambulance that the guys ribbed me on for a while. Call came in, we were all sound asleep, I drove to the scene, started talking with the family to get info and everything was fuzzy. I had forgotten my glasses. Once the brain finally woke up, I couldn't make out much beyond 4-6 ft away. Don't know how I drove the unit, reading road signs to get to the house but I did. Had to swap out with the medic in the back and he drove to the hospital while I did patient care.


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## Misty Wegner

Yikes! Driving without needed glasses... Had some divine protection there, lol.. I think it is easy to forget essential items, especially if they aren't stored in the car and ready, when a call comes in... Focused on being prepared it is easy to be, uh, well, unprepared... 

I've told my story of scenting my dog on my own scent article (she still found the subject.. Intuitive deduction)... Another lesson learned about scent articles.. Just bashed the snot out of my fingers today on a low spout drinking fountain.. So gloves are now on my essential list... Fingers are sausages without skin in spots... 

Tying my gear to me (radio, gps, etc) is another costly lesson learned... Listening to advice from others (well meaning or not) but taking only what you know or believe will work for you and your dog, another valuable lesson... Believing in yourself and your dogs, even when no support (or from wonderful online people only.. Shout out to Sarah!) but keeping perspective for why we do what we do.. Another great lesson...


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## Misty Wegner

Oh, and the question that posed about the most likely scent article (I am unable to copy and paste with my phone, or at least don't know to).. 

If the family was there as were the officer(s) who secured and bagged it, I would do a missing man type start.. I would also let them know that the possibility (and likelihood) of shared scent from anybody walking by it, let alone touching or stepping on it could be the scent the dog locks onto... Hopefully other clues would confirm or deny that the trail was indeed the missing persons trail... But, yeah, I know how easily scent articles can be rendered a problem instead of an asset due to contamination... A trailing teams biggest asset (besides the dog and handler, lol) and yet also the most fragile and important item, so easily contaminated.. 

Come on, I know other people have some great words of wisdom from lessons learned... I like to learn vicariously... Saves on the pain of learning it in real time


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## Misty Wegner

New nuggets of wisdom.... 

1. Always, at the very least, put scent article in baggie and mark it... (that way, cross contamination of campers who arrive while trail is aging, doesn't happen.. Grr) 

2. Should one have to leave baggied scent article at PLS while it ages.. And one happens to notice it isn't where it is supposed to be.. Do a wide search of the area.. Guaranteed, some yahoo tosses it or a wild animal thought it hilarious to grab it and drag it into the trees 50yds from PLS :l 

3. Trust your dog.. Trust your dog.. Trust your FREAKING DOG! No matter how intelligent you think your tracklayer is, or how specific and detailed you are in telling them what you want.. They will do what they want... How my dogs continue to succeed with me at the helmet, I will never know... 

4. Guaranteed, the time you have all h*** break loose at home and you can't train for 2 weeks, that will be when all the K9 specific callouts will come.. 

5. If you are going to have intestinal trouble.. Expect a callout! Works better than a rain dance for rain...


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## Bob Scott

"Ideally" the dog handler should be the only one to handle the scent article when it's bagged.

Extra scent from the parent, cop etc handling the article is newer/fresher scent to the dog.

If that's not possible ask whoever does it to use clean BBQ tongs or something similar.


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## Misty Wegner

Absolutely! But when training and doing an aged track, I am subject to my helpers and their capabilities.. Sometimes that means the scent article is placed at the PLS when the trail is laid and then I come to it, usually the next day and run the trail (the subject having been reinserted to end locale)... I do this less and less, leaving the scent article at the PLS, but sometimes it is a necessity..


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## Sarah Platts

How about using scent articles that don't look like scent articles? A gauze 4x4, a plastic water bottle, a soda straw, a cigarette butt, a used Kleenex, hand rub a stick and leave in a specific location, handle a piece of flagging tape and tie it off to a branch or tree limb. 

Funny how runners never, ever, go where you tell them. Or they do and then add or change the route. 

I remember one track at a local campground. Told the runner to walk past this tent where there was a beer party in progress. I specifically told him to NOT GO INSIDE the tent. We start and everything is fine until the tent and the dog heads in and I'm dealing with 100 intoxicated patrons. WTF?!? Caught up to the runner and the first thing he says is "How was the tent?" Yep, did it on purpose. I almost throttled him on the spot.

On my last four re-certifications, the runner got lost...... every time. Even the gal who has been visiting/walking in the park for the last 25 years. WTH?!? My evaluator keeps asking where do I find these people who can't follow a map or directions.


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## Misty Wegner

Great ideas on scent articles Sarah! Awesome! I've had the dogs use wallets, sunglasses, car seats, chip bag.. But straws and other obscure articles is perfect! Things people aren't apt to pick up, lol.. And am so amazed at how people can't follow simple instructions, lol


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## Misty Wegner

Seems to be the month for lessons... 

- never keep the supposed water resistant 'indestructible' cell phone in your back pocket, when you know you are working a creek.... A 1.5ft across BUT 6 freaking feet deep and nestled in 6ft tall grass... Yeah... Costly lesson... 

Will be sandwich bagging my phone from now on. (yay... Not)


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## Sarah Platts

keep important items in a pocket that you can button or Velcro shut. Otherwise they tend to "bounce" out as you are jogging along.

Next lesson, watch it when you work RR tracks. The ties are to close for normal steps and the rocks are hard on a dog's feet. Be careful as it's easy to sprain an ankle or trip yourself up.


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## Misty Wegner

Oh yeah! Learned that one early, lol.. My fast moving girl makes me buckle, lash, seal, velcro and tie everything down... Now to ziploc everything down, haha


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## Nancy Jocoy

Misty Wegner said:


> Seems to be the month for lessons...
> 
> - never keep the supposed water resistant 'indestructible' cell phone in your back pocket, when you know you are working a creek.... A 1.5ft across BUT 6 freaking feet deep and nestled in 6ft tall grass... Yeah... Costly lesson...
> 
> Will be sandwich bagging my phone from now on. (yay... Not)


I have destroyed 2 cell phones on a search. They survived river water but not blackwater (Swamp). I know have a shock proof water proof case.

I buy cheap gear for the most part that does not break your heat when it gets lost. I also never leave aything unlocked in my truck on a search ($600 lesson-theft)


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## Nancy Jocoy

Sarah Platts said:


> keep important items in a pocket that you can button or Velcro shut. Otherwise they tend to "bounce" out as you are jogging along.
> 
> Next lesson, watch it when you work RR tracks. The ties are to close for normal steps and the rocks are hard on a dog's feet. Be careful as it's easy to sprain an ankle or trip yourself up.


my 29" inseam HATES RR tracks especially when I am walking with taller men with long inseams who can span more ties.

Protect your ankles. Working with PT now for damage from former fracture and more recent sprains. ligaments dont really recover.


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## Misty Wegner

Yes, protect protect protect! I've had numerous surgeries in life and have no desire for more! Lol.. Keeping limber and in better shape then what a callout will demand (hopefully) is key too. 

Been doing Insanity (modified for my arm and knees, now, although did all the plyo for 2yrs,but 4 knee surgeries says no more plyo, lol) and my callout yesterday was steep freaking 90° grade mens, and rugged rugged.. Was glad I was working out as I am tired today, but mostly mentally, and very little ache (except my arm which always hurts)... So, Yay cardio, haha

Heal fast and we'll Nancy  still praying for you and your recovery


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## Misty Wegner

New lesson learned today... When casting your dog for a 19hr aged trail after having scented her in the car before getting out (Because I was to lazy to walk scent article to PLS and back; it was a long trail, I had just run one with my other dog... And, ok, I was lazy..) make sure that if and when she scents the car with open windows you don't say 'find her' at the inopportune time or she will think that the car is the scent article and take you up the freaking huge ski Hill mountain looking for the worker (who owns the car) grooming the trail.... After about a half mile with her obviously in odor and hot on the trail I radioed in thinking this wasn't like my subject to lay such a good trail... It wasn't... 

I walked my girl back rather passed she missed the DOT and took me for an all uphill run.. I recast her and she once again went to the car and wagged her tail... I knew what happened then.. I told her 'no' and scented her off the flag marking the PLS... She immediately took off in the correct direction and found her subject.. 

Reeeaalllyyy poor timing on my part for the search command.. I was tired and took advantage of her usual sharp self... Bad move.. Lesson learned!


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## Sarah Platts

Misty Wegner said:


> Because I was to lazy to walk scent article to PLS and back; it was a long trail, I had just run one with my other dog... And, ok, I was lazy..


You need to start making scent pads. Its a skill that ALL trailing handlers should learn and be comfortable with. That way there is no scent article to carry around or have the issue of carrying it around. A piece of gauze in a plastic baggie is something you can shove into any pocket or even down the shirt front if necessary.

Other than that, please keep posting your lessons learned. It helps everyone learn.


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## Misty Wegner

I do know how to make scent pads, lol.. I was just to lazy to do it!! Omgosh! How sad is that! Haha.. Actually, I hadn't thought about using scent pads for training, other than to train to make scent pads, if that makes sense? But it is a great idea and one I will start using.. 

I also tried the suggestion of the dual scent article (fresher to saturated scent) and each dog did something different.. I will replicate this two more times with multiple people to see which dog truly prefers what.. Great suggestions Sarah! 

Well, as to posting, lol, I'm a wealth of information as I make alot of mistakes.. Some slap your head stupid, others like today, poor timing and an 'aha' moment as to what went wrong... So, no shortage of posts haha


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## Nicole Stark

Interesting to read. May I make a request? I'm not exactly sure what your acronyms mean. I'm making it up as I go, kind of a Mad Libs type of thing. 

Re: scent pads. I know what they are in IPO but do not know if you two are referring to the same thing. From the dialogue, I am fairly certain not. Would you elaborate for those following along?

Misty, separate question. I think journaling like this, or whatever you want to call it, is rather helpful. I am sure you are mindful of patterns tof your own that show up - correct? I'm asking because you used the word lazy a few times. For whatever reason I don't like that word. Maybe because I feel it only has negative connotations; thereby usually absent a solution.

The lazy reference was the "pattern" I mentioned. Somehow SAR and lazy just don't seem to be reasonable companions so I imagine that there's a legitimate reason when you've opted to not do something. Perhaps, being short on time is an example of that. 

Do you get where I am going with this?


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## Misty Wegner

Hi Nicole, 

First, the scent pads are mostly the same, although they are for the most part, used once to scent the dog.. We don't set them feet apart or with food on them to keep the dog on track.. They are used to tell the dog who they are searching for.. They (usually singular in a search but plural for the reference) are easier to carry with on a long search, and it is not evidence which scent articles could be... 

Second, I appreciate the defense in using the word lazy, but unfortunately, in this case it was the chosen word because it is applicable... I had the time, I chose not to do the extra walking because I had done anaerobic exercise before running my first dog on a long trail, and now had another trail to do that was longer.. The few extra steps wouldn't have tuckered me out, I was just unwilling to exert the extra energy : lazy, lol... 

But, you are correct in that SAR and lazy, in general don't mix well... Especially trailing where you cover the distance your dog does... So usually lazy and SAR repel each other


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## Sarah Platts

When dealing with scent pads do not think "fresher" as it's the same age as the original article. Its like taking a whole cake and cutting off a piece. Is the piece you cut off the cake any "fresher" than the rest of the cake? No, it's all the same age.

Now the difference is the volume of scent. Or saturation levels. Most handlers think dogs need a major scent article to get the smell. The stinkier the better. This is incorrect. By using large scent items, most dogs are odor overloaded and usually turn their heads away from the item. Handlers then think the dog doesn't have the scent and proceed to hold the dog's head and force them closer to the item or put their heads/noses in the bag which makes them unhappy with the whole process. 

This is one time where more of something doesn't make it better. Practice using scent pads in training. On so many other levels, I prefer scent pads to dealing with an actual article.


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## Nicole Stark

Misty, I know this is about lessons you learned but do you care if I ask Sarah to explain something she said above? I think this is a good thread, I could ask her via PM but I think doing so takes away the learning value for any up and coming SAR people. I'm more interested in cadaver for some reason but nevertheless maintain an active interest in SAR. I just don't have the time or personal schedule stability to commit to it at this time.


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## Misty Wegner

Not a problem Nicole, the lessons learned are for any one and everyone to share or ask/learn  Not just mine (although I seem to be on a grand learning process currently, lol) 

I haven't used scent pads often just because the scent article was always readily available and bagged.. But I can see how practicing make 'clean' scent pads can be useful.. I've done it been but will practice more for preparedness sake.. 

When you brought up the way people scent their dogs I am reminded of the scary ways I've seen it done... Putting whole bag over nose/head, dog held down until person believes dog has had 'enough' etc... I am all the more aware of how quickly it happens as my girl scented herself off the car in a blink of an eye.. No long drawn out process, just a good whiff and poor timing on my part with the search command... Most dogs being scented the other way fight the process and I wonder how much drive they are killing in the attempt...


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## Nicole Stark

Misty Wegner said:


> When you brought up the way people scent their dogs I am reminded of the scary ways I've seen it done... Putting whole bag over nose/head, dog held down until person believes dog has had 'enough' etc... QUOTE]
> 
> I'd be moved to kick someone in the teeth if I saw them doing that. [-( Like I said in another post, play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
> 
> OK, no, I wouldn't really do that but I'd make sure they'd never do it again. As far as I am concerned people aren't exempt from receiving corrections that need make an impression (verbally speaking of course).
> 
> Anyway, the scent pads in SAR aren't the same as what IPO trainers employ, which loosely described is a trampled down spot of ground used for young/green dogs. I see that the pads in SAR is a physical scent article that can be segregated and transported for training purposes. IPO use them too but call them articles. It seems that in SAR, an article is directly from/of the subject and while a scent pad is too in concept, it's not something that physically belongs to them.
> 
> With that said, how might the use of that have helped you here with your most recent lesson learned? Presumably all the rolled ankles in that run (generic term for f ups due to not using them) could have been avoided? Or not?
> 
> Sarah, what is involved in the process of practice using scent pads? Why do you prefer them to using an actual scent article? I think the answer is fairly obvious but I wanted to ask the question anyway because sometimes I am surprised by the extra detail I receive in a response.


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## Misty Wegner

OK, those u know that we're doing IPO or fst type tracking used small clothes with scent with food on then to keep the dog 'clean' and not drifting... Yes, a scent article for SAR is from the subject we are trying to find, arthritis could be a car as well.. In this particular scenario, if I had had a scent pad instead of the article I could have shoved it in a pocket and not worried about it being mucked with by someone else who might 'find it' and move it.. Sense it was a hat and not mine, I scented my dog with it in the car before casting her and so she rescented herself accidentally (actually, I had been practicing car scenarios recently, so she probably thought that was what I wanted, bad handling on my part) and if I had had the scent pad, I would not likely had the problem.. 

As to kicking teeth in... Ahh, yes, sometimes it is irksome to the point violent thoughts erupt, lol... Especially when you see the dog so frustrated with the process and know how easily they are scented anyway..


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## Sarah Platts

Nicole,

Normally when talking trailing, a scent pad is a piece of gauze that you scent-transferred the subject odor over to (for a visual think of scent transferring like wet paint) . But we do use scent pads like IPO. You scent the dog off the starting location much like IPO. It would be where the subject sat, stood, or touched a railing. Similar to your IPO but specific to that particular human. Where crosstracks are an issue with IPO, with a trailing dog they should not be. (not if you are doing your training right).

Its the simplest thing but can be mucked up and with it your trail. Basically, you take the scent item be it a person's shirt or something else like a wrist watch, used Kleenex, a ring they wore. Even the oils left behind from a single fingerprint is more than enough to scent the dog. Besides I have always had trouble shoving that bench seat into a pocket. Anyway, you take the item and place into a bag. Most use Ziploc bags but paper can also be used. In the bag you put in several pads of sterile gauze. You close the bag and let it sit for a couple of minutes. Then you take out the gauze only and put one pad into a Ziploc bag. You carry and scent the dog off this gauze pad. This way one scent article can be used by multiple dog teams and the original article is not contaminated by many people handling it. If the item can't fit in a bag, like a park bench, then you lay the gauze on the target area, and then I cover it with the 4x4 paper wrapping to help trap the scent to the gauze pad. Then you bag as normal. If you lose/damage the scent pad, you can easily make another off the scent article. There are some guidelines. You don't used scented or febreezed bags. You should wear gloves and practice clean technique during the process. Ask questions about where your scent article came from and who else has handled it. Remember things like familial scent and that people trade clothes or share sleeping space. Nursing homes are the worst places to get good scent articles from.

Over 10 years ago, Jerry Yelk suggested using the very small canning jars instead of bags to put the gauze in. I played with it for a year before I became convinced that the jars were better than the plastic bag for the gauze pads. I use either method as both are considered industry standard however I feel that the jar actually intensifies the scent level. I've dropped the jar, tripped and fallen on the jar and haven't had one break on me yet but I suppose it could happen. It just hasn't happened with me. 

You can make scent pads off of anything the subject has touched, handled, or even breathed on. To get handlers thinking about different things you can use for scent, I've had a subject just exhale into a bag and hand that to a handler to use. Because the handler can't see a scent pad, they think there is no odor there. But there is. I know one gal who had the subject step in snow and then scrape some of the snow into a bottle and then later scented the dog on the water of the melted snow. I've used even stranger stuff than that because that was all that was available.


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## Sarah Platts

Misty Wegner said:


> Sense it was a hat and not mine, I scented my dog with it in the car before casting her and so she rescented herself accidentally (actually, I had been practicing car scenarios recently, so she probably thought that was what I wanted, bad handling on my part) and if I had had the scent pad, I would not likely had the problem..


Misty, If you are scenting off an item that is lying on something else, lift the item up to scent the dog. Don't leave the item laying on the ground or other surface. Isolate exactly what you want the dog to sniff. Some will even use their finger as a pointer and have their dog sniff at the point their finger is touching.

Also do you use one command or two when doing the trail start? By this I mean, do you present the scent article and immediately give your starting command OR do you present the scent article with a command like "what's this?" and then after the dog has sniffed then start the dog with another command like "track" or "search"?


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## Misty Wegner

Well, once I reread my post and saw the ridiculous typos my phone 'auto correct' I'm embarrassed, lol... Sarah's explanation is much more detailed and without the weird typos (arthritis??? What the heck? Where did my phone think that even made sense?! Lol).. Great explanation Sarah! 

I haven't used breath, although I know it possible.. I've used wallets, sunglasses, paper, sticks, grass/dirt, rock, napkin, plastic, scent pads (but not usually from transferring from initial scent article) via gauze, etc.. The jars are probably the best source, especially for scent pads, but currently I like the plastic baggie because can seal and shove in my pocket in practice... In an actual callout, backpack would hold the jar nicely... Will have to try that for sure..


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## Sarah Platts

Nicole Stark said:


> When you brought up the way people scent their dogs I am reminded of the scary ways I've seen it done... Putting whole bag over nose/head, dog held down until person believes dog has had 'enough' etc...


When I first started the "accepted" practice was put the dog's nose in the bag, closing if firmly around the muzzle making an air-filled bubble with the bag and then squeezing the bag to push the scent up into the dog's nose. thankfully, I was a rebel and refused to play the reindeer games.


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## Misty Wegner

Wow... That is scary, but I've seen it happen to the point the dog is flipping out, and I mean flipping out.. The handler seemed oblivious to the damage to his relationship he was doing... Credit to the dog.. I would have bit him


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## Nicole Stark

Misty Wegner said:


> Yes, a scent article for SAR is from the subject we are trying to find, arthritis could be a car as well...


LOL Hey Misty, did you see the size of them chickens? You want to try again on that last part? \\/


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## Nicole Stark

Sarah Platts said:


> Nicole,
> 
> Normally when talking trailing, a scent pad is a piece of gauze that you scent-transferred the subject odor over to (for a visual think of scent transferring like wet paint).


That makes sense. Similarly, when I was explaining to my 7 yr old nephew how my mastiff worked scent, he responded by calling it an echo. I found it curious that he'd relate an auditory reference to that process. Interesting word choice. I certainly understood what he meant when he asked me if she was following the subjects echo. I don't think I used an actual word when describing the process, that's just what he called it.

Thank you for the reply by the way. Quite helpful.


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## Nicole Stark

Misty Wegner said:


> Where did my phone think that even made sense?! Lol)..


I imagine the programmers had to leave some room for meth induced psychosis.


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## Misty Wegner

Bwaaahaaahaa! Love it! That must have been it, stupid programmers


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## Sarah Platts

Misty Wegner said:


> Well, once I reread my post and saw the ridiculous typos my phone 'auto correct' I'm embarrassed, lol... Sarah's explanation is much more detailed and without the weird typos (arthritis??? What the heck? Where did my phone think that even made sense?! Lol).. Great explanation Sarah!
> 
> I haven't used breath, although I know it possible.. I've used wallets, sunglasses, paper, sticks, grass/dirt, rock, napkin, plastic, scent pads (but not usually from transferring from initial scent article) via gauze, etc.. The jars are probably the best source, especially for scent pads, but currently I like the plastic baggie because can seal and shove in my pocket in practice... In an actual callout, backpack would hold the jar nicely... Will have to try that for sure..


Can't help with the arthritic car but it must be an older model. 

Actually, your post made sense. It explained how the dog can easily take the "wrong" scent and why it's important to isolate the target odor.

Almost everyone used the baggies for the pads. The jars were something I experimented with and liked the results. I use a small fanny pack to carry my gps, and other small items. I can carry the jar or baggie there or in the side pocket of my cargo pants. 

the added benefit of scent pads is that you now have a ready supply of "negative" scent articles to use on later training dates.


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## Bob Scott

Be it a jar, plastic bag, gauze pad be sure to proof off of the item that you use to hold the scent.

I saw one example of that where the "team" used pvc tubes to carry the scent in and didn't proof off of pvc.

The dog started hitting on empty pvc pipe. 

Sounds simple enough and pretty basic but not everyone looks at the "simple" stuff.


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## Nicole Stark

Bob that's a good example of something I suggested on here before about going down a rabbit hole of habits you have to break later. I want to do it once and do it right the first time.

I don't believe that the 1-10-100 rule is only governed by value in dollars. The same can be said about time and the absolute impact of failure (100).


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## Nicole Stark

Misty Wegner said:


> ...the scent pads are mostly the same, although they are for the most part, used once to scent the dog. They are used to tell the dog who they are searching for.


Misty/Sarah, I have been curious about something for a while. Have either of you ever heard of or been involved with a situation to search for someone lost that eventually perishes and is found by an SAR team?

I ask, because I have been curious about at what point does death, to the dog anyway, change the scent picture? Or does it not for those recently departed? Can SAR dogs find persons deceased 2 or more weeks? Have any of you heard of or experienced a situation involving a reasonable amount of biological material that your dog alerts on? 

If so or even if not, do teams train for this or is it only subject based as the primary source and biological material is not interrelated. Breath was mentioned earlier and I'd have to imagine that they could be if it was used successfully.

Sarah might remember me telling a story about a cadaver seminar I had both the Dutch and mastiff in. The Dutch was working in a field and I was compelled to leave the area with the dog and explore a commotion I heard come from a wooded area. I followed the dog and my own sense of what direction I believed the screaming to be coming from. She led us through the woods, a number of homeless camps, down a footpath, and then off to a small open area. I looked over and as I approached I noticed that she was standing over a head sized pool of blood. 

I inspected the area and saw spatter off about 3-4' away and about 2-2.5' off the ground with what appeared to be a path leading away from the area. Almost like shuffling footsteps and feet being drug. Is this unusual? Was it something that just happened to occur and we curiously discovered it or do SAR or even Cadaver teams encounter odd things like this?

Again, we were working with HR. While I have seen the Dutch trail, she's not naturally inclined to do much more than find something very specific. For all of this to fall into place and her to end up at that exact spot is completely not typical of her natural inclinations nor compatible with her training. I don't have an explanation for it.

However, this is something that would be typical of my mastiff and I would have followed that trail away or any way from that area with confidence knowing whichever way she went it would have led us to whatever or whoever the matter concerned. The Dutch doesn't have the foundation to have led her to that area (maybe I am under estimating her?) and so this remains a matter mixed up in my head. I don't understand it and would like some clarification on how this might have occurred.

I don't know why, but it's been two years since this has happened and it still bothers me. I don't have reason to believe that anyone died that day but "get away from me you son of a bitch", "help, help, help" and even when we were in that area where the blood was, which the grass was matted down, further into the woods I heard the woman scream two more times. The police was called that day, twice for that incident and me again later. By the time we went back it was 10:30 pm and rain had washed the blood evidence away. It was chalked up to a homeless community issue and nothing further was said. 

I believe the general consensus on this was that the dog discovered it purely by accident. You'd have to know this dog to know that it's you, her, and a reward, nothing else. It's rare that she takes a walk about on her own, in fact I purposely put her in positions where she has to get out of this stupid object based drive state and figure shit out on her own. Maybe this was an example of her coming up to task? I honestly do not know.


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## Sarah Platts

Yes, I have been involved with those types of searches. As far as the age, dogs have located everything from fresh dead to historic skeletal remains hundreds of years old. As far as amounts, dogs can alert to everything from trace amounts, to full bodies, to areas where the subject went back and cleaned up the scene. The one issue that affects most dogs is the amounts trained on. Even if the dog has not trained on that particular amount, you will still get a behavioral change that should be investigated. There are ways to 'marry' primary source and biological scent sources to fine-tune the dog's search. This is something done by mantrailing handlers not airscent ones. I doubt the airscent folks have much of a clue in that regard unless they come from a trailing background because the vast majority of airscent dogs are not trained for scent specific work.

And it's not just the stuff on the ground. You will get the same alerts in water searches. Dogs will locate everything from full bodies to skeletal bones.

As far as your other thing, I have not had anything that strange happen to me where I felt I was walking into a crime in progress. I would not discount that it was all luck mostly because of the distance. Do you remember the direction of the wind on that day? Could the dog have been following the smell of blood on the wind or perhaps following the fear scent of the woman? Too bad they didn't luminal the ground area. You can still get the chemical reaction even though it's rained.


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## Nicole Stark

I do recall the direction of the wind. It was coming from the north west. The distance was about half a mile from us. We were initially upwind of it until we intersected with the trail, then she went left. At some point she left the trail by going off to that grassy area, which was on the right. 

You are right about the luminal. I got the feeling no one wanted to bother with it. The attitude toward the homeless population up here, well I think people have tuned them out and look right through them.


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## Misty Wegner

Very sad (and interesting) story Nicole.. Human life is human life regardless of age, Creed, religion, or economic Level. To ignore it is horrendous... 

I know alot of our air scent dogs are HR dogs as well, but given a separate command for the deceased and usually a passive alert as opposed to an active alert for a live find... As trailers and scent specific dogs, my dogs are exposed to cadaver (and separately working on their HR certifications) and are to follow the strongest scent source of their subject.. Whilch if deceased would be up to the body and they stopped emitting their specific scent and became decomp odor instead... 

We are also usually attached to the dog (some work trails with dogs loose), so what we are lead to is what we find if that isn't to simple an answer, lol.....


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## Misty Wegner

Good point on proofing Bob! Sucks to find out something doesn't work when it counts... Or you have practiced the wrong thing to a point of conditioned response, the wrong way..


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## Bob Scott

As to the HRD to full body, the first SAR dog I trained was an Australian Shepherd.

We had the good fortune to visit the "Body Farm" in Knoxville Tenn.

She did a great job on HRD up to and including full skeletons yet she totally freaked out with a full body.

Refused to go near any of them.

I took her out of the yard, played fetch with her, went back in and the same thing happened. 

Consequently I never used he on any "fresh" search. 

The team also trained on many levels of new/aged decay, bones, skin, teeth, burned "material", etc.


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## Sarah Platts

Bob Scott said:


> She did a great job on HRD up to and including full skeletons yet she totally freaked out with a full body.
> 
> Refused to go near any of them.


Bob, What I have found is that the dogs are not used to that visual pictures. Just like looking for a live subject who is always sitting but now is standing or always visual but now concealed. It throws them off because they only know it in one context. I had the same issue and solved it by taking a full sized mannequin and laying it out and stuffing the inside with HR. Had the Marine-belly-crawl, tail-tuck shaking to the bone on the first go around but over a few reps they approached like normal.
I do know that if that body had moved on the dog's first approach, I would have found him about two counties over. So folks if you try this DO NOT play stupid reindeer games of making it twitch or moving thinking it would make a cool gag on the dog. You will totally screw up your dog so restrain yourselves as I know how SAR people are.


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## Misty Wegner

Lol! Yes, 'funny' human tricks are NOT cool when training your dog, especially when fear or uncertainty are being emitted from your K9 partner... 

Our team has a foot and leg, so larger then normal source pots, but I remember my first GSD SAR dog, while training, first time on source, I knew she found it by her depressed slinky way she acted.. Very subdued and acted like she was 'sad'... Basically a passive response via body language.. Very interesting that dogs do this for humans, and yet, I've watched dogs pass full cow/horse corpses without much issue.. A little caution and glances but not the reaction I've seen from larger source... Although I've never seen a full body or a dogs reaction to it..


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## Sarah Platts

Misty Wegner said:


> but I remember my first GSD SAR dog, while training, first time on source, I knew she found it by her depressed slinky way she acted.. Very subdued and acted like she was 'sad'... Basically a passive response via body language.. Very interesting that dogs do this for humans, and yet, I've watched dogs pass full cow/horse corpses without much issue.. A little caution and glances but not the reaction I've seen from larger source... Although I've never seen a full body or a dogs reaction to it..


Not all dogs act this way. My first dog loved to grab it up and play a nice game of "Keep Away" with it. My private suspicion is that, initially, the dog can't identify the dead type odor and is naturally cautious until it determines if it's a threat to them or not. Others have an aversion to the odor. I know one guy who says his dog's indication was on whether or not the dog was "happy" or not. If the dog was 'unhappy' then he made the call. Good thing he doesn't have my dogs as they all dance and carry on when they find it.


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## Misty Wegner

Sarah said ".... Others have an aversion to the odor. I know one guy who says his dog's indication was on whether or not the dog was "happy" or not. If the dog was 'unhappy' then he made the call. Good thing he doesn't have my dogs as they all dance and carry on when they find it."

My girl wags her tail and I know she has found source even before she gives alert... My boy is less couth, he will lick or try and pee on it... NOT COOL! So I have to be quick to make sure his alert is clean and specific (a sit)... He takes more work, although a natural in the find, his indications are what isn't a 100% yet, more like 85% 15% lick or pee... Ugh..


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## Sarah Platts

One of my boys likes to tinkle by the source. I found that I was not giving enough praise on the find so his "finds" took longer. He spent more time meandering around before he would finally indicate. I started really loving him up on the finds and that made him faster to indicate and less time tinkling around.


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## Misty Wegner

I will try that! He is a natural with his nose, but independent and quick to change to something more fun if his reward isn't to his expectations... So maybe I'm falling short in that.. I will amp up his reward and see if he locks down his focus.. Good suggestion


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## Bob Scott

I've known a couple of dogs that would relieve themselves when making a find.

For the full body thing, I was playing the "victim" during live find training.

I was laying on my belly, 1am in the morning on the bank of the Mississippi river.

I thought I heard a dog sniffing at my boot. It wasn't alerting so I very slowly lifted my head to see which dog it was.

:-o It was a small coyote, all stretched out trying to lean in and get a better smell. 

I tapped his nose with my boot and the poor critter damn near turned inside out getting the hell out of there. 

Took a pretty good dump mid turn almost on my boots to.


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## Wayne Scace

*I've no clue about SAR, but lessons that I've learned in sixteen years as a Guide Dog Owner. 
1 Trust your Dog
2. See number one.
3. Keep your head in the game, your dog doesn't know where you want to go and canines do not have an autopilot.
4. Always carry at least two rations for the dog in case you don't get home that night.
5. Always double check, and then check again that you have all your dog's working tack in good repair.
6. Always have a plan B.
7. See number one.
*


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## Misty Wegner

That is awesome Wayne! Very glad you chimed in, you have a unique perspective.. While I have my eyesight, and thus can 'out think' my dog, which usually causes trouble, you have to trust your dog in a much more organic way... 

Rechecking gear and supplies is a great reminder.. I forgot water in a hot day and long trail, poor handling on my part. The chalky dry mouth my boy was getting and the obvious difficulty he had in scenting was obvious.. Thankfully, I had a flanker who had a bottle and a quick swig of water had him back on track... Those small things are key to success... Thanks!


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## Bob Scott

"Trust your dog" is HUGE in both!


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## Meg O'Donovan

"There are ways to 'marry' primary source and biological scent sources to fine-tune the dog's search."
Sarah, what do you mean by this quote?


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## Sarah Platts

Meg O'Donovan said:


> "There are ways to 'marry' primary source and biological scent sources to fine-tune the dog's search."
> Sarah, what do you mean by this quote?


The primary scent is the human scent but you could be working with an old scent article or less than perfect. Since the old scent article doesn't present an up-to-date scent picture you "marry" that scent with current meds or the subject's blood or an item that presents a more 'current' scent picture than the human scent article by itself. Can the dog work the trail with an 'old' article? Yes. However, you usually go some other places first as the dog works to match the scent picture you presented to it. If you flesh out the old scent article with current meds or new diet changes the dog will add it to the trail picture. I call it an advanced handler skill because you do it during the initial scenting process at the start of the trail and some handlers have trouble with the coordination part.


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## Misty Wegner

I've heard of this before Sarah but never tried... Because I have predominantly used scent articles and my subjects, as wonderful as they are to hide - are very forgetful /can't follow instructions well.. Because of this, I pack their scent articles with me in the car.. These scent articles could be 4mos old but used for a hot trail... I've also used a fresh sock or hat for an aged trail (back when we would leave scent article at PLS, learned that lesson! Lol) and had no problems with either dog grabbing the trail and working it.... 

It may be more difficult at a PLS that is a home and thoroughly saturated with the persons scent... But I have always been under the impression that the dogs job was to follow the 'freshest' scent present that was their subjects via scent article... 

I have been curious if someone in ketoacidiousis (s/p?) or some other condition where the bodys chemistry might change enough to emit a different odor midway through a trail.. If the dog would still have the primary components from first scenting to continue on without difficulty...?


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## Sarah Platts

Wayne Scace said:


> *I've no clue about SAR, but lessons that I've learned in sixteen years as a Guide Dog Owner.
> 1 Trust your Dog
> 2. See number one.
> 3. Keep your head in the game, your dog doesn't know where you want to go and canines do not have an autopilot.
> 4. Always carry at least two rations for the dog in case you don't get home that night.
> 5. Always double check, and then check again that you have all your dog's working tack in good repair.
> 6. Always have a plan B.
> 7. See number one.
> *


*These are all extremely valid points. Good Post.*


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## Sarah Platts

Misty Wegner said:


> It may be more difficult at a PLS that is a home and thoroughly saturated with the persons scent... But I have always been under the impression that the dogs job was to follow the 'freshest' scent present that was their subjects via scent article...


I used to think this too, but a couple of situations popped up on cases that taught me that dogs can be very discriminatory with their scent work. The more you can narrow their current scent picture the better off you are. This helps a lot in PLS's from the homes or in situations where the subject walked a lot in an area. Jerry Yelk turned me onto it in a nursing home case. It was pretty distinct. Next situation was for a rape case where there was a med change. That cinched it for me. I've had some friends double check this stuff with their dogs and there is a place and time for "married" scents.


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## Sarah Platts

Sarah Platts said:


> The more you can narrow their current scent picture the better off you are.


Actually I think the better wording would be "the more you can clarify their current scent picture...."


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## Misty Wegner

That does make sense.. As the scenario I painted earlier (diabetic going into insulin shock or keto acidosis) could be a scenario that changes the scent picture.... Interesting to think about..


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## Sarah Platts

A bit off-topic but spent a hour or two trying to chase/catch a groundhog out of a culvert. My mom looks at me and says 'where's a Jack Russell when you need one". One of the few times I wish I had one of Bob's earth dogs.


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## Misty Wegner

Lol!! That is a lesson learned... "dogs I need to have in reserve for when I need.. (fill in the blank)..." dachshunds are good for that too..


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## Bob Scott

Culverts can really suck if the hog doesn't want to bolt.

I had one of my Border terrier in a 10 inch, 50 ft long aluminum pond overflow with a raccoon for about three hours.

Absolutely no way to dig unless in a natural den.

Rags finally came out dragging the ****. 

Rags was busted up pretty bad but wagging his tail like he just finished off a mouse.

That's when I retired him from earth work. 

That "No Fear", "gameness", whatever you want to call it in a dog can get even a big dog in trouble. 

Raccoons puncture and grip, ground hogs rip. 

You don't want either to happen to your dog. 

The good baying dog or bolting dog rarely get hurt. 

Most Borders want to do what they were bred for and that's to finish the quarry. 

If they are causing crop damage then apples and a live trap can help.

Some of the "terrier men/women" can be more about having a badass dog and that wasn't a part of why my group hunted.

Misty, my fav of the Dashunds would be a mini wire.....but most of the weeny bassids I've dug to don't like to be pulled out of a hole by anyone other then their owner.  :lol:


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## Sarah Platts

The holes these things dig in the fields and under the buildings are awful. The neighbor across the way doesn't hunt them so eventually they try to expand our way. I laugh at your traps. Sometimes it works and sometimes not. We can spend weeks trying to trap one so that's why we spent so much time at the culvert. We stuck a box trap over one end and duck-taped several 8 foot poles end-to-end to push him out. He would poke his head out, and then dive back in the culvert. Finally we covered the box trap and caught the little %$##@. A good size female. Good riddance.

My mom's English Springer was better then any dog I ever saw at catching and killing them. She didn't play with them but just dived right in. She kept them in check but at 11 years old she's to old to play tunnel snake any more.


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## Bob Scott

Both of the Kerry Blue terriers I had were excellent above ground critter exterminators.

My JRT was one of the very few dogs I ever hunted with that could be sent under a foundation, barn floor, etc because he could be called out even in the middle of working the critters. 

I understand the damage they can do in a field. 

One of the farmers we hunted ground hogs for told us that one ground hog could clear a 1/4 acre of soybeans when they started sprouting. 

That and a den in the middle of a field could be collapsed by some of the heavy equipment thus causing expensive damage to the equipment.

My main hunting partner was a JRTCA Working Judge.

If you wanted to get working titles on your dog it had to be witnessed and recorded by a JRTCA Working Judge.

Thus I've dug to many different dogs over the yrs.

I retired when I was 60 cause these old knees and back got tired of digging 3,4, 5 ft deep holes.

I've often done that 3-4 time a day. :-o 

Planting flowers and maters suits me just fine now. :grin: :wink:

In suburban areas we often used live traps and also some dogs are natural bolting dogs so we would put nets over the often 5-6 escape holes and sent the bolting dog in. 

We had to stay really quiet because if the critter heard us above ground they would stay in the ground and put more pressure on the dog. 

The majority of these "burb" caught critters would be released in remote areas where they did no real damage. 

All farmers and horse farmers we hunted in Kentucky wanted to see "stiff" critters. 8-[

These were dispatched quickly with a pistol when dug to. Same with raccoons hunted in hay barns.


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## Sarah Platts

This really isn't a lesson learned although it's kinda that.

A pet peeve of mine is having a handler state their dog did XYZ and drew a certain conclusion and also wrote it up that way in their report. Later once the body or outcome is known then their story changes and suddenly it's now ABC. Suddenly the negative cadaver indication becomes a positive, the track the dog worked changes and that other track they worked with their BH howling and indicating their person was in a certain area is ignored and discounted in favor of the new theory where the insignificant, discounted behavior (not matching in any way with how the dog normally performs) now becomes the primary track because it supports what the handler feels the dead guy did or what the detectives said the guy did. In other words, their story changes to match the new information or outcome so that, to all appearances their dog was right all along.

I really hate it when handlers change their stories to support the flavor-of-the-month theory and refuse to stand by their words or position. I guess this also includes people who delay submitting their report until AFTER the conclusion so that the report 'can be written correctly'. 

Do you consider these folks liars? How can you trust them to stand by their own actions? What do you do when your dog was doing exactly what theirs was doing until the handler changes their story and now their dog is 'right' and yours is 'wrong'. One thing I will always do is stand by my report and what I stated happened. If it's found out later to be in error then I will always own up to the mistake. After all how can you fix or correct the error if you don't own up to it? 

Oh, well, time to get off my soapbox...


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## Nicole Stark

Sarah Platts said:


> Do you consider these folks liars?


 Yes, but for some it seems that if changing the facts serve them in some way, then their truth is that the "lie" is simply a statement with fluidity.

BTW, were you recently on TV?


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## Sarah Platts

yes. Circumstantial murder case. Had a lot of folks all turn armchair quarterbacks over a single line statement in the newspaper with something I said taken out of context. No one seems to give a shit about the 15 questions that led up to that statement and why it was said the way it was said. 

No one knows about the 10 hours I spent on the stand beating back the defense attorney making ridiculous statements during the suppression hearing. Or the six hours during the actual trial. But give them one out of context statement in the newspaper and figure they are on some Self-Policing Glory Ride to set the record straight.

Sorry, sore subject.


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## Sarah Platts

I honestly don't know how K9 cops put up with the constant shit. Maybe Howard has some ideas because I'm fresh out except to soldier on and lift my middle finger to the self-righteous hordes.


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## Nicole Stark

I don't know the specifics but I presume what I saw on TV was the case you are talking about? If so do you care to elaborate or would it best be left alone?

The reason I originally asked was I know what state you reside in but the location of the murder was in another state. I noticed it because of your name and the affiliation with HR but the state was off. I thought is this the person I know or is this merely a coincidence.


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## Misty Wegner

Wow Sarah, I am so sorry for all that has just taken place... Your rant is SOOOO justifiable, and unfortunate that it happens... Mostly because the good handler's like yourself, that prove over and over and over again by integrity and handwork that you are reliable and an asset, end up being lumped in with the bad when reality catches up with them.... 

Integrity is a choice, and can be very humbling when an error occurs... Which is life, mistakes happen (one of my pet peeves is similar to yours and is when nobody ever wants to talk about the times their dog(or themselves) blew it, be it in practice or a callout.. It happens, humans make mistakes, animals don't lie but they are subject to their own whims and environmental factors)... To own up to it and become better for it is admirable and trustworthy.. Some one who when called into court will tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth.... 

To have someone interpret their dog and recognize why a dog did what it did post facts, is fine... To change their theory or story, change a negative to a positive, or East from West etc is ludicrous and an out and out lie.... The pressure is on in a given situation, but you do the best you can and what happens is what happens... When another experienced K9 Handler has a similar response from their dog, even if not matching to what is known at the time (sometimes there is legitimate odd circumstances that caused the reaction from the dogs... And sometimes it is just a bad dog day, it happens) to suddenly change their theory and report is scary... Definitely a lie and all integrity is blown... They are making it harder for everyone else in the long run... 

You have me curious though Sarah... Should it not be a sore point, or out of protocol to elaborate on the trail run, even in a 'hypothetical trail,' I'm curious what the dogs did... I'm always learning, and unfortunately, even in the crap which I'm so sorry you are going through, there are lessons to be learned... 

Hang in there Sarah, your integrity will shine through this time..


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## Bob Scott

Inconsistency with the description of a dog's alert, accidental or other wise can get someone tore a new ahole in a court room. 

Unfortunately there are still to many "rogue" individuals AND teams out there that have no clue.


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## Sarah Platts

The really SAD thing about this is I called one of the individuals who gave their name to the defense. Now if you got the balls to make the call, and your name/comments are brought up in the court proceeding, thus becoming part of the court records then why not at least put on your big girl pants and own up to it. Instead the individual says they didn't make those statements, they have no knowledge of what I'm saying and they don't know what I'm talking about. Then they hang up on me. 
So boys and girls, this has just documented you out to be a liar. True, no obligation to speak the truth here, but it DOES show is that you will cross the integrity line. And when you have crossed it once, how many more times will you or have you crossed it in the past and by how much? It's very much a slippery slope and, folks, the more times you do it, the easier it gets for you and the deeper you go the more you do it. 

I've already offered up the case folder plus the case email traffic between this handler and myself on this situation to the prosecutors office.


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## Sarah Platts

Bob Scott said:


> Unfortunately there are still to many "rogue" individuals AND teams out there that have no clue.


Bob, I am considered by many to be "rogue". I will work for the families while many others will not citing that they MUST be dispatched by LE or will only work for LE. I will work out of my "territory", crossing into another's and frequently after the local teams have already been there. I work trails outside of the norm and outside what is considered the standard window of deployment for a trailing dog. I am part of an independent team not tied to my state's system (which is heresy just by itself and you labeled just for that). I will try stuff, not knowing what the outcome will be, because someone is looking for answers.

Because I am willing to do all these things, which step on the sensitive feelings of ownership by the local team, and willing to push up the bar and not take the easy way of just not trying, I am labeled rogue and heretic.


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## Misty Wegner

Sarah said: Bob, I am considered by many to be "rogue". I will work for the families while many others will not citing that they MUST be dispatched by LE or will only work for LE. I will work out of my "territory", crossing into another's and frequently after the local teams have already been there. I work trails outside of the norm and outside what is considered the standard window of deployment for a trailing dog. I am part of an independent team not tied to my state's system (which is heresy just by itself and you labeled just for that). I will try stuff, not knowing what the outcome will be, because someone is looking for answers. Because I am willing to do all these things, which step on the sensitive feelings of ownership by the local team, and willing to push up the bar and not take the easy way of just not trying, I am labeled rogue and heretic.

I think what causes the knee jerk (and other 'jerk' reactions) is that most who do what you do tend to walk on the skirt of unethical behavior... They fudge the truth and interpret their dog to fit their needs, as you well know... It makes the few who are willing to try anything, BUT, report the TRUTH of those attempts and stay factual ride under the cloak of the charlatans.. It is unfair... But we all know one bad apple can spoil the whole barrel... 

Proof that integrity is a lost morale and those willing to stand behind their work no matter what a 'rogue' faction... Sad sad times we live in..


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## Bob Scott

My definition of a "rogue" is someone that is out there ONLY because of ego and or the desire to be "someone". 

I don't see you anywhere close to that. :wink:


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## Misty Wegner

^^ Agree 100%!!


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## Sarah Platts

Thanks Bob and Misty, I appreciate that.

Misty, I also understand your "that most who do what you do tend to walk on the skirt of unethical behavior". However, This is also a personal perception and stance taken and a problem I feel the search community is ignoring. Plus they also tend to lump those that don't feel as they feel into the same boat. It doesn't matter your skills, certifications, training because if you are not part of "them" then you are not qualified. It's politics playing its ugly little game.

XYZ team has taken the position that they will only respond to a request by LE. That's all well and good but what happens after the LE search effort is done and there is still no resolution. LE has to only give good-faith effort before calling off a search. What is good-faith for one department can be vastly different for another based on many factors. So search efforts are stopped but the family is still looking for answers by refusing to work for families you now FORCE the family to look at other options and resources. I guess it's a bit about voting in elections. If you chose not to vote then you shouldn't bitch about the results. If you chose to turn the family down then you don't get to bitch about who they bring in.

The other thing is the window of deployment. Most trailing dogs teams only train for the standard window of deployment. Which, I'm told for my state system, is the first phase (12-24 hours). After that the search normally moves to strictly airscent dogs and ground teams. And not all dogs are equal - shocking, I know. I had a LE department call me for a search. I was not able to respond because I was already committed at another event. I did tell them of a good local SAR bloodhound in the area but was told they tried that dog and it couldn't work due to the traffic and the city scene. So I worked to make arrangement to bring in an outside dog, one that I knew could work in the city. But all the local team sees is someone jumping in on THEIR search. Not really addressing the fact of canine insufficiencies that made it necessary.

Then there is the money. People wear this like some kind of martyr's badge. I don't believe in getting paid for doing a search but basic expenses like lodging or gas - if you are doing a lot of driving - is something else. Especially over a multi-day event. I'm not sure any team, if the family came up and offered them a donation check, would turn it down saying "no way". A donation check? Isn't that sorta like getting money for helping? Aren't we always asking for money to help with team expenses? Which could be considered a little like getting paid? Or the family buying food for all the searchers? Isn't this a bit like getting expenses covered?

I guess my point is folks point a lot of fingers, do a lot of talking, but fail to see their own reflection in the mirror. Time I got off my soap box again......


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## Sarah Platts

Here's one more bit of heresy. I expect that sar volunteers will shortly begin charging or being paid for their efforts. There are to many events happening to expect volunteers to keep sucking up the costs.

What I see happening is a review board will take a look at the search. Yes, accidents happen, but if the person took all the proper steps: checked the weather, was dressed adequately, had a day back with basic survival type supplies - like a space blanket, whistle, fire starter, etc, told people where they were going and when to expect them back, signed in at the trail head, etc and still suffered an accident, had unexpected weather move in, or got lost, then I don't see them being held responsible. But *if* they were totally ignored signage to stay out of an area (skiers), were not adequately clothed, didn't take any standard precautions then I see that those people should be held responsible. Or even taking out a hiker's insurance policy much like travel insurance.

Now what about the money? I foresee a standard daily rate. Not for the cops, game wardens, etc who are already getting paid but more for the unpaid volunteers. Something like a set amount of $20/day/person or similar. Not enough to make you rich obviously but enough to help offset expenses like food or gas. And yes, the individual would be on the hook for this amount just like people who have child support or personal property taxes. Would it make them think twice about calling for help? Maybe. It might also make them become a bit more responsible. Here's the rules.... if you chose to ignore the rules, well, then I guess you get to pay to play. The other option is to set up a state fund paid for by the already overburdened taxpayers following the same guidelines. 

It is not feasible to attempt to recover all the actual costs but basic costs are certainly possible. Or even a basic flat rate per search. So the one that only took 20 minutes is charged as much as the one that took 4 days. Over time, the funds should even out.

Now for some people, I don't foresee them caring one way or the other in which case Darwin can come out to play. But to say they won't call? I really don't see that happening. Now there are folks who say different but really how do they know since it's never been put to the test and actually done? 

Now with all apologies to Misty, I think I've sidetracked her thread long enough.


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## Misty Wegner

No worries about sidetracking, as I believe this is well within a 'lessons learned' perspective.... 

My thoughts on the unethical tightrope walking in the segment of 'fringe' or 'rogue' handler's was not the very good points you brought up... Aspects that most don't deal with because of the short turnaround for most mission callouts... But more for those who come out specifically to prey on the grieving... And there are alot of those who tout their 'miracle dog' for every mission.. They make no mistakes and interpret each action cloaked under (or after) the facts are divulged.. They play on the hopes of the families and don't charge necessarily except expenses, but EXPECT a donation... 

Now, that being said, I fully agree with trying anything to help the lost and their families... Being sure to let them know this is an attempt, no promises, but the very best efforts will be given.. All results, positive or negative will be divulged... Recognizing that expenses are not just the resources in training, gear, gas, time, learning in seminars etc, BUT, time off work, gas to and from the site, lodging, food, wear and tear on gear and car, etc, I don't have a problem with expenses paid after initial search is done - as nobody else is being paid and that unfortunately can open a whole new can of woes... But family calls you in, absolutely... Shoot, LE calls you in from another state or long distance, yes, because they are being paid and you are not.... But payment like a job?? Sticky sticky territory... A perfect setup for those who will talk advantage of the grieving... 

A fine line is walked... But integrity and honesty in all things makes the righteous shine in the dark and gives hope to the lost, and those who see that values and morales can be had...


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## Misty Wegner

This is a rather obvious 'learned lesson', but I think the importance of it truly sinking in and taking hold inside (me) is significant.... 

I do what I do (SAR k9) because I want to help others... It is for me as well because I enjoy doing it... I don't need others praise or recognition when I succeed, although it is of course nice... When I don't receive it, especially if deserved, it isn't important because I do it for others lives and for myself... 

Why do I state this? Well, just like most people, (I) look to have others in (my) venue respect. It can help us be better at what we do, but it can also insight anger or bitterness if not received.. This isn't right or fair to others or ourselves as we can become jaded quickly in an area we love doing... 

I've known, intellectually, this forever, but to allow it to integrate into my being and full perspective has taken time... Almost ironically, this freedom invites what was sought all along, validation of success and hopefully, comraderie... 

A little side note.. Props to my dogs who passed their IPWDA Trailing tests last weekend in an urban/suburban environment... And props to all the other K9 handler's who did a really phenomenal job certifying /recertifying their dogs in tracking, trailing, air, HRD and narcotics!!! 

An odd lesson learned I know, but one I feel is important and one that has taken years for me to really 'learn'


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## Sarah Platts

Congrats on passing your tests. Glad everyone made it through!

I know that I enjoy doing SAR. I guess the issue I'm still learning is that what people say in public is vastly different then what they say in private or among their little posse. It took me years to find out there are more crabs around than one would expect. I guess that's the part that still disappoints me the most about my peers.


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## Misty Wegner

I have been in a sheltered environment from that sort of harassment thankfully... While I believe still that it is a choice to take offense, there is a HUGE difference when you are being maligned in an open foray and online.. Unfortunately, people are often sheep and follow whomever barks the loudest whether it is truthful or packed with intentional deceit... Then it is a whole new lesson and one that can affect you to your very core... 

I agree with you at the amazing amount of crabs in this field... Who would think such a noble cause that requires so much sacrifice for another would hold so many bent on maligning another, tearing others down and just bad manners... I am so sorry you have been a victim in these sort of smear campaigns... It is uncalled for and truly a disservice to their team, SAR in general and themselves.. The harm they cause is deep then the intended victim and the damage is long lasting... 

Ultimately, truth will win out, but surviving through the onslaught and then after requires a truly amazing person.. Someone absolutely worthy of respect and loyalty.. Hang in there... As the lies lose their power and the truth gains ground you will find vindication and a chance to heal.. 

Helps me be mindful of my words and actions...


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## Sarah Platts

If someone is telling you that you are handling your dog wrong, then let that person take over your dog (within reason) to demonstrate what they are saying. That way when they piss off your dog or shut him down, the dog will not associate it to you and your relationship remains intact. Plus it gives the added benefit of showing the other person that, perhaps, their suggestion needs some work.


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## Misty Wegner

^^love it! It is often funny, or not so much, that the ones who say you are doing something wrong are so often the ones who can't do it (with their own dogs) themselves... Those that do know what they are doing seem to be better able to allow one to learn with their dog, see the good and gently guide when incorrect.. They don't take offense (usually) and they aren't thinking skinned (usually) when you explain why you do what you do... Even if different from them.. Why? Because they actually have knowledge and experience in that area and don't feel threatened... In general


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## Sarah Platts

What they wanted me to do did not make sense, scent-wise. the individual could make their dog perform the physical movements but from the limited sampling of dogs I saw, if the handlers had not know where the track was, the dogs never would have. Even with dogs professed to be experienced in the technique. In a nutshell, when you are casting for a lost track, they wanted the dog's head up high and jogging beside you in a heel position. If the dog dropped his head, you were to correct the dog and get that head up. Only if you saw a head turn were you suppose to let the dog drop his head to sniff the ground. So I'm working a line perpendicular to the track and letting the dog skim the ground with his nose (after all that's where the greatest concentration of odor would be, right?) and he's working slightly ahead of me just like he would in normal trailing or at the start of the trail to get DOT. Dog's moving forward and not dinking around but the person kept telling me to "get that head up" and get the dog into heel position. So I passed the lead over and told them to show me. Poor Gus. Every time he dropped his head, he got corrected so he just starts being the perfect OB dog, heeling just like they was asking him too. They stop, he stops. They walk, he walks. Pretty sits, etc. Even when they put him on the track, he was like "Nope, I'm not dropping my head. Not after you just yanked me up the last 8 times...." In essence, they had shut him down. They pretty much had to walk him to the end but it was an airscent finish. After that, if manner of the exercise was contrary to scent-sense or how I work my dogs, I just passed on doing it. In fact, I stopped doing pretty much everything they were suggesting because either it was making the dogs over-hyped and crazy or just didn't make good scent-sense. I was just seeing to many little things that I felt, over time, would become larger issues. Not everything works for everybody.


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## Misty Wegner

Bwaaahaaahaaa!! I would love to have seen this!! Omgosh, too funny... Poor Gus... So my above post has an amendment... While I said 'usually' they are open minded and those that 'know' what they are doing... I should have emphasized that knowing what YOU (the 'you' being generalized and referring to the person knowing what they are doing, BUT, that can be something like 'knowing' how to make a sandwich they like but nobody else does ~so fluff 'knowledge') does not always preclude KNOWING (reality) how to teach or real world scenarios.. Those type definitely get feathers ruffled because if you step off script they don't know what to do... 

I am familiar with the Kocher method and have watched teammates cast their dog several times past the time first indication of DOT is given... Not my place to say anything (although they never hesitate to comment on how I do things, lol) but if we look at progress on the trailing dogs, some are not progressing at all.. And those some do not include mine ... 

I don't mind the 'fire trails' 'intensity trails' if you have a dog who has begun to lose the enthusiasm before a trail... My girl was working longer and longer aged trails and I noticed she wasn't whining before the trail like normal.. She worked well but no enthusiasm at the end... I started doing a couple of fire trails pre and post main trail and the fun and intensity returned... I looked at it like a kid loving school when in kindergarten and grammar school. But when high school and college comes, when work is hard and tedious, the excitement dwindles... Adding some clubs, or outings (while maintaining good grades) makes the hard work more palatable.. It worked well for my girl... My boy is already very excitable and wears his emotions on his paw... If I tried doing the intensity trails with him I would probably over amp him and lose some of the needed focus and discipline for aged trails... 

Imho, it takes a knowledgeable person to know the difference and not just book knowledge which it sounds like this 'instructor' only had... What a bummer... Well, I always say you can learn something from everyone, even if it is what NOT to do


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## Sarah Platts

You can definitely overdo anything. To much of a good thing, can become a bad thing. A fire trail has a place but not every place needs a fire trail. I tend to mix up the lengths of trails. Sometimes hot, fun tracks and sometimes they aren't. I don't see the need to do a fire trail at the start if the dog is already amped up or clearly ready to go. Or one on the backside if the dog is happy about their ending. It's a judgment call.


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## Misty Wegner

Absolutely agree!


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## Bob Scott

Sounds like they are taking away all the dog's natural tools in order to do as I say crap. 

What happened to "trust your dog". It can't happen if your basically being told how they want the dog to use it nose. ](*,)


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## Sarah Platts

Bob Scott said:


> Sounds like they are taking away all the dog's natural tools in order to do as I say crap.
> 
> What happened to "trust your dog". It can't happen if your basically being told how they want the dog to use it nose.


As it was explained to me, they want the dog's head up because if it's down then it will critter and forget what it's supposed to be doing. After I chewed it over in my mind, I came to the feeling that the positioning of the dog was being used as a band-aid/quick fix to try and get results without having to deal with the underlying training issue (hey, we are working here.....). Because when trailing the dog's head is down or neutral. But they also want these dogs running flat out which , after some more thought, I realized they are using the dog's speed to try and prevent the crittering/forgetting-why-they-are-there issue. In other words if you are moving fast, you don't have time to goof around. However speed is a double edged sword. I've seen to many dogs running like this and then stop and wonder why they are there while on the other hand, a faster pace can help liven up otherwise dull work.


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## Bob Scott

Also sounds like a "band-aid" for a lack of critter proofing. 

That was done on a regular basis when I was in SAR. 

Road kill and also critters in cages.


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## Sarah Platts

Bob Scott said:


> Also sounds like a "band-aid" for a lack of critter proofing.


I think it's something like that. I can see where it gives excellent short term results but I can see that over a long time there will be issues. You can throw all the paint you want over a rust spot but until you actually take the time to deal with the rust, it will always be there and will keep reappearing.


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## Misty Wegner

Teaching a simple 'leave it' command is easy.. Adding a problem to cover up a problem makes no sense to me... I've always thought (and heard) it is best to work WITH your dog not against it... If the dog is focused and working and wants his head down, who cares (besides the obvious)?! To interrupt a perfectly thorough way of going because it is the rote way of a' method ', any method, imo is unwise... True, it might get short term results, but that is usually luck.. The dog just hit in a short term pattern, a way that seemed correct and' learned '.. It takes hundreds of repetitions for a solid' learned' response.. Things will fall a part once away from the group and the dog will try to go back to what it is natural for it... 

Not knocking any method in general... Just a forced mindset that something HAS to be done a certain way even to the detriment of the dog/team..


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## Sarah Platts

Even with the "leave it" you have to be aware. I was doing an aged cert track for a police department. Dog's working great but there was this one place on the track (trail was laid in an abandoned farm complex) that the dog kept smelling and we circled back to it several times before the dog worked out of it. I told the officer that there was something there that was really grabbing his attention beyond "crittering" as the behavior was not typical for crittering. Come to find out, the runner had taken a big piss there. I've also had dogs nose very small items in the grass or brush where if I hadn't looked before I yelled them to 'leave it' that we would have missed. 
That does bring up an interesting thought about articles. Because with these dogs running flat out (or at least moving pretty quick), I'm not sure they would indicate or stop at articles along the way. Hmmm, something to think about......


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## Misty Wegner

I was referring to the 'leave it' for specific known crittering.. But I know I have been guilty of misreading and hurrying a dog through when the person had shut or even bent down to tie a shoe.. Usually the tail set changes for crittering behavior, but not always... It does make you wonder about articles... If the dog is jerk ed for dropping their head, and they head pop a given direction at speed because an article has cast scent, is it ignored? Does it even happen due to the speed and amped mindset of the dog...? 

I would like to see seasoned and vetted dogs in this method work tracks and articles.. See how the handler's handle things as well..


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## Bob Scott

I want a solid "leave it" on any of my dogs be they a pet or a top level whatever. 

That starts with a puppy and helped considerably when the SAR started.


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## rick smith

crittering

often a problem that affects many types of professional working dog as well as lowly pets (LOL)

- never seen an in depth thread here on how to stop it

- also never heard or read of anyone using critters in scent box walls (mice, birds, rabbits, snakes, etc etc) when they first started their "imprinting" process. mostly it's food, latex gloves and other (low level) distraction items
- why ?? 
.......seems like a VERY common and big distraction that should be desensitized and proofed EARLY in the training rather than in LATER stages out on tracks. live critters would seem very appropriate

- don't do SAR so don't know if it's done, but curious since no matter what I am training for, I always try to start out at the lowest level that is as conflict free as i can get, and that would be as early as i can
- do professional SAR prospects get washed if they critter or is it accepted that all dogs do it to some degree and handlers manage it with corrections when it surfaces ?
- scent (tube) walls are common/uncommon for SAR training ?


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## Misty Wegner

Well crittering has its degrees.. An air scent dog crittering by chasing a deer or other animal that can't be trained out of, is usually a wash~for that discipline (often totally).. But crittering when you are working a trail can be as much as sniffing the bush a dog peed on but stopping forward motion on the trail... Severe crittering on trail can be very dangerous as they can 'jump trail' and take you for a run.. 

I think all handlers deal with crittering on some level; dogs are dogs.. But teaching them to stop it and refocus on their job is taught early on if success is expected... 

I never trained aversion specifically, except snakes... Just refocusing with a correction if needed as it happened.. Now, a 'leave it' is usually all it takes..


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## Sarah Platts

Misty Wegner said:


> Severe crittering on trail can be very dangerous as they can 'jump trail' and take you for a run..
> 
> I think all handlers deal with crittering on some level; dogs are dogs.. But teaching them to stop it and refocus on their job is taught early on if success is expected...


I tend to agree with this but handler should learn to recognize and correct by making the game more fun than the animals. I tend to take my dogs out for daily runs off-lead so they have the opportunity to be a dog and critter which gives me a chance to watch them and learn the body language. I will also take the dogs out for urban walks and let them sniff and be a dog. So later when I'm training the dog isn't so focused with "new" smells because they have smelt them before. For some dogs the only opportunity they have to smell this stuff is during training so they take advantage of it. My dogs are game sharp but have had deer run right past them without them taking off after them. How much having them exposed to livestock helped with this, I don't know but it sure didn't hurt. I know there is a guy who makes a good living breaking dogs off of deer. He's got several acres fenced to contain his deer herd and his own dogs. The dog is turned out with the dog pack and 1) is corrected for interest in the deer and 2) takes a lead from the other dogs that deer aren't any big deal. Call it immersion training.


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## Misty Wegner

^^ I agree with this line of thought.. I know some that don't like to let their dogs go on hikes because they feel that forest setting should be a work place... If that works for them more, cool... But for me, I want exposure to everything, but in a controlled way so as to keep problems from happening... When on a line and working, wildlife is taboo and they know it... 99% of the time wildlife is still taboo to chase, but interest in the smells etc are allowed... Walking with them in different environments does help in reading them, imo, and certainly helps in keeping daily life experiences in the correct parameters, without excess excitement or interest..


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## Bob Scott

I like the immersion/flooding when proofing a dog off of distractions.


I will say that I never work on distraction training combined with nose work until I feel the dog is solid on the training by itself.

It's simply a matter of breaking down any training in as many behaviors as possible and then chaining them together.


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## rick smith

the last three posts would seem to confirm that using critters in a scent wall during imprinting would be a good thing

- early exposure 
- controlled environment
- keeping it fun

for me the key to keeping a dog neutral and non reactive has always been CLOSE exposure at low levels and then increase that level and eventually proof with corrections when the dog has clearly learned the behavior. 
- i do that much more than introducing distractions at a comfortable distance and then decreasing distance

can't stick a fawn in a scent box but you can certainly pack a "critter scent wall" with lots of smells the dog will certainly encounter in a real working environment and need go ignore

maybe too far outside the box and a perceived hassle to maintain a sterile training environment ??

i also suspect crittering is triggered by (prey drive // sight) movement as much if not more than purely scent attraction 
- how much of each is probably breed specific (beagle vs border collie) and prob why herders and bloodhounds do better than sight hounds 

of course both factors (sight/sound) are always present in different degrees and vary from dog to dog.....just trying to connect invisible dots and relate to other training regimens 
........and trying not to comment on the pet guide post about a groovy grooming glove .......PUKE :-((((


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## Bob Scott

I think the scent wall would be an excellent way to start proofing off most any scent. 

I also agree about the breed being a factor. 

The first dog I ever did any tracking with was a Border terrier. 

He had an excellent nose on a track (sport work) but the problem was that I had hunted with him for the first two yrs before I tried the tracking.

Again, and excellent nose but I never trialed him because he couldn't pass up a critter scent that may have crossed the track he was on.

It wasn't important enough at the time for me to give it any more effort but I've not see a lot of succes with critter breaking a terrier once it's made a kill. 

That includes something as simple as a mouse. 

The working line little bassids are just hard wired for that. 

I have heard of a couple of JRTs that were successful but they were never hunted or even allowed to chase a squirrel in a yard.


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## Sarah Platts

Good golly, lets not take the direction of the grooming glove. Let me guess it's hot pink?

I don't have access to a scent wall but I remember one thing that was done to me and later I did to others. Get a bunch of similar cardboard boxes (free from post office) and set up a couple of rows of scent boxes. The handler is to run their dog down each row and at the end, indicate what boxes contain HR. Some dogs indicated, some handlers called it on body language. The thing is none of the boxes contained HR. What they did have were all sort of attractions such as tuna fish, cat food, dog food, women's worn underwear (usually the downfall of male dogs), live mice (the downfall of almost all), dog toys, or just plain empty. Pretty much you can let your imagination roam on what to put in. The trick to this is the handler does not know what is in the boxes and operates under the assumption that there is HR present. 

For trailing dogs who like to trade trails, you can have someone do a scent drag of buck lure across the human track. They also make a rabbit scent, pheasant scent, etc for variety. The handler should know where these drags are in order to correct the dog if necessary. But its also good proofing and if the dog doesn't take the animal track, good proofing for your logs.


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## Bob Scott

Sarah Platts said:


> Good golly, lets not take the direction of the grooming glove. Let me guess it's hot pink?
> 
> I don't have access to a scent wall but I remember one thing that was done to me and later I did to others. Get a bunch of similar cardboard boxes (free from post office) and set up a couple of rows of scent boxes. The handler is to run their dog down each row and at the end, indicate what boxes contain HR. Some dogs indicated, some handlers called it on body language. The thing is none of the boxes contained HR. What they did have were all sort of attractions such as tuna fish, cat food, dog food, women's worn underwear (usually the downfall of male dogs), live mice (the downfall of almost all), dog toys, or just plain empty. Pretty much you can let your imagination roam on what to put in. The trick to this is the handler does not know what is in the boxes and operates under the assumption that there is HR present.
> 
> For trailing dogs who like to trade trails, you can have someone do a scent drag of buck lure across the human track. They also make a rabbit scent, pheasant scent, etc for variety. The handler should know where these drags are in order to correct the dog if necessary. But its also good proofing and if the dog doesn't take the animal track, good proofing for your logs.



Good post!


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## Sarah Platts

I forgot to mention the above was used to help identify odors that attract your particular dog. Or how well proofed your dog is. Once you know what your downfalls are then you can do additional proofing. It's also a test of the handler on how well they can read their dog. I have another one that involves a field.


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## Misty Wegner

Winter lesson #1... When you get a callout to a neighboring state at midnight, in the snow, make sure you have winter tires on! Even going 14mph under speed limit over a mountain pass can cause you to uncontrollably slide into a ditch and almost into a tree and over a mountain side... By God's infinite grace and mercy, we didn't... Tow truck driver was amazed... Everyone is ok... Dogs thought it sacked though, because while it is wonderful the person was found, it was when I was 6miles away from CP... So a'wasted' trip and almost a very costly trip.. 

So, morale of story... Get snow tires and don't slide off mountains


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## Misty Wegner

It has been awhile since I really felt a good lesson has been learned, well.. Got some! 

Working a believed drowning case during some of the ksrgestflood stages WA has ever had this spring. My dogs kept alerting to a particular large strainer and one about 59ft below.. On numerous different occasions both my dogs were avid to get to the middle of the first strainer but we're unable to do so. Finally waters recede enough for work to begin. 

I am asked to rub my dogs again and see if odor is available...
- First lesson: don't get hung up on location, trust your dog! 

I, however, was focused on the strainers where odor still was as per the dogs. I explained to my LE flanker that I couldn't pinpoint where it was coming from (we were on an island in between both strainers) but both dogs kept head popping to bank and actually left the area to a large bush section directly by the first strainer but on the bank.. I called them back to me to finish the river

-lesson number 2 - Trust your freaking dog! Lose the tunnel vision and see what they are doing 

While astride the fist strainer (about 5ft tall and 50ft in length) I had my back turned and was talking to a diver. My girl kept whining at me and I though she just wanted to get off the uncomfortable tree we were on..... 

-lesson number 3: if you refuse to listen to your dog while they are working they may just bring the source to you, so pay attention... 

When I finally finished gabbing and proceeded to leave the strainer, a rib is noticed my girl mouthing on the tree. I had been on that tree multiple times and there was never a rib there, until there was... 

Strainer is chainsawed and numerous clothing items from subject are found aa well as a fingernail.. I do mention several times the interest the dogs had in the large bush, but everyone is focused on the strainer... 

Turns out a bear had pulled body out of water and a skull and scapula are found the next day behind the bush and then a large assortment of body bones the day thereafter... 

So my lessons for the day are TRUST YOUR FREAKING DOG!!!!.. Lesson leaned


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## Bob Scott

Amen to that!


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## Howard Knauf

Just when you think you got it...you don't. Good dog!


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## leslie cassian

I love reading about you and the work you do with your dog, and yet, a part of me is, OMG dead bodies... ewwwwww. And then I remember that having answers about a loved person who is missing, that even though the news is bad, knowing is better than uncertainty. Thank you for what you do. Thank you for continuing to learn and work at the relationship with your dog so you can keep doing what you do. Thank you for sharing, too.


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## Nicole Stark

Very well said Leslie.

Misty, what is this strainer? All I could think up was something like a household strainer and in the context of your writing I was led to thoughts of heads and arms swirling around in them. I suppose we could thank that creep Jeffrey Dahmer for that visual!


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## Misty Wegner

Thanks Leslie.. 

Nicole you are funny! No a strainer is logs and debris that allows water to flow through but is also likely to pull and hold a person under. They can grow and recede in size depending on debris and force of water. We watched these strainers change in size many times, but the heavy trees that made up the body of the strainer remained constant.


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## Nicole Stark

Ah, so it's a natural monster of sort.


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## Bob Scott

When I was involved in SAR the very best searches we went on were when we were called off, often times after traveling MILES to look for lost children and being told the child was found and fine.


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## Misty Wegner

Yes, a dangerous often submerged monster...but natural8-[

I agree Bob! Unfortunately, this particular mission was one in which we 'knew' no turn around would occur because of a live find..

I had one mission where I drove about 2hrs and met up with another team. We began to caravan and I was directly behind the lead vehicle. It was late fall and close to evening, temps dropping, and in very very rural (wilderness) country. We were looking for a 10yr old girl who had emotional issues, and all our nerves were a bit frayed knowing what we would face in the dark, cold, etc.. As we got to within a mile of the PLS (her home), I notice and the lead vehicle driver does as well, a young girl casually walking on the road - we pull over and low and behold it is our subject\\/ She got to ride in my car and the dogs snuffled her hair and gave her kisses...They (the dogs) were a bit perturbed they didn't get to run a trail, but we as searchers (LE, Border Patrol, and 2 teams) were very happy she was found alive and well - the best kind of search for sure


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## Howard Knauf

In my mind a strainer was a huge iron grate. Never considered a natural strainer made of debris. Learned something new today.

Finding the reported victim before arriving to the search area had to give you the warm fuzzies.


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## Misty Wegner

It did Howard, everyone was relieved and left an impression that we are searching even before we are given our tasks and assignments. I know I let my dogs stick their noses out and take inventory as we near IC or base camp. Finding the subject before we arrived drove home how important it is to remain observation and ready even on the way, lol.. The dogs loved sniffing her head and getting treats handed to then from her.. But they were so amped up for a trail that I had to have another volunteer go do a quick hide for each of them, lol.


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## Sarah Platts

Nice to hear good outcomes. The life lessons never stop coming, do they?


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## Nicole Stark

Howard Knauf said:


> In my mind a strainer was a huge iron grate. Never considered a natural strainer made of debris. Learned something new today.


** I had an idea that it might be that too Howard. So I kind of expected a different answer than what I got. It's times like this that I appreciate my tendency to ask seemingly odd questions at times. I just mean that I tend to question stuff that on the surface seems fairly obvious but curiously turns out to be anything but.



Misty Wegner said:


> I know I let my dogs stick their noses out and take inventory as we near IC or base camp. Finding the subject before we arrived drove home how important it is to remain observation and ready even on the way, lol.


** You bring up something interesting Misty, something I never considered because I only know about SAR/HR work in in the initial phases though I have seen more advanced dogs work. It wasn't until you wrote what you did above and the relatively convenient timing of me watching the initial work on finding a trail on big game hunts with hounds that I wondered about whether or not SAR folks might work in the same way. I've always envisioned a let's meet here (last place spotted) and then take it from there approach, and that makes sense but in a situation where that information may not be known, then what?

Also, what is the ratio of urban to rural searches?


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## Misty Wegner

Good questions Nicole..

PLS/LPK (or LKP depending on where you are from, :smile Are almost always known, or at least greatly assumed due to itinerary of lost, or family/eye witnesses. It becomes more difficult for a trailing dog, if no general area is known, but that is also why air scent dogs are great. They cover alot of territory and can 'rule out' or at least give a POD (probability of detection) percentage allowing IC (incident command) to adjust their deployments of resources.

As to the ratios of urban to rural, that changes each year, just like some years there are lots of deployments (this year) and some with few (last year). But I will straddle the wire and say middle ground - suburban due to where I live. There are lots of urban callouts, however, most are initially handled by LE and never get to the call for SAR. This year most of my missions have been in rural communities, or a park/lake area that is busy but 'rural.' Hence the decision to say 'suburban'.


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## Nicole Stark

Misty Wegner said:


> Good questions Nicole..
> 
> PLS/LPK (or LKP depending on where you are from, :smile Are almost always known, or at least greatly assumed due to itinerary of lost, or family/eye witnesses. It becomes more difficult for a trailing dog, if no general area is known, but that is also why air scent dogs are great. They cover alot of territory and can 'rule out' or at least give a POD (probability of detection) percentage allowing IC (incident command) to adjust their deployments of resources.


So how might an air scent dog work an area if the PLS is unknown… assuming I got the meaning of PLS right… otherwise I may have to reask the question.

I'm asking because all I have in mind are these big game hounds on the racks doing their thing as the trucks roll on down the road, or working on the front decks of boats. its pretty damned interesting to watch. So are a number of training videos I have seen of various scent based (generalizing here) scenarios. They open my eyes a lot to the full impact of what the owners of Forensic K9 said about my mastiff.


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## Misty Wegner

If the PLS (place last seen) is unknown (and even if it is known) an air scent dog is often sent out into areas of lower probability of detection in order to 'clear' the area. The handler will usually have a map and check wind direction and set up a plan of attack; then grid the area so as much of the terrain assigned, is covered. The dog works ahead and to the sides, and often times doing a check from the rear and back to the front looking for any human odor. If there are other hikers or campers the dog will alert the handler that he found a human and the people can be questioned if they saw the lost person. This is valuable as it can often redirect the search if someone has seen the person who is lost...hope that answers the question.. Not sure if I am being specific enough or not, but air scent is very similar to how HRD is done (there are some differences but pretty much the same), if that helps..


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## Misty Wegner

Well, I almost did it again!! Eesh.. Asked back to see if we could find more remains. Predator population in the area odd the charts as all sorts of scattered littered the 30 acres we worked. My dogs still have odor in the water, but on land there seemed to be interest in certain areas but no evidence, except of what ate said remains. At one point my girl wanted to go over a hill, and I called it, mostly because she was hot and panting, but also because I was doubting it would be that far... My boy said the same and I followed reluctantly... To the same spot evidence was gathered. Even had a crime scene number placket there. My flanker thought it was same bones but, nope, bear went back to crime scene and had another meal... 

Went back a 2nd time and found another bone shard of which my boy was mouthing (bad dog!!).. My girl wanted to cross the river one side, so we drove over to opposite bank and she wanted to cross over to other side.. So something is in the river midway... About 300 ft from the strainers.. First time dogs had interest in that area, so possible a predator carried something across and left some of it.. 

Anyhow, my bad for almost missing important evidence by my own nagging doubts... Grr...


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## Nicole Stark

That's interesting. I find the recurring theme cute, but in a teasing sort of way. I'd be interested in how know how that part of the river flowed, how dramatically it rises and falls, etc.

As most of you know, I'm on the water a fair bit and maybe this is obvious but once you learn how to read water by running a boat, and work with dogs/scent, things start to "look" different in the process of creating mental pictures or when actually looking at what's before you.


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## Misty Wegner

Well we had the worst flooding in about 50yrs, so I could accurately tell you the norm for this river post flooding. But the areas of interest currently are in about 1.5 to 2ft water with rocks forming little rapids. It is a straight flow, no bends for a half mile or more. The strainers when they were there of course generated a bit of a course change, but not now as they have been removed


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## Nicole Stark

The area of interest is roughly how big of an area, are you able to tell? How big are the rocks? And are they throughout the area? Up here the rivers rise and fall by a lot. In your area are the river levels otherwise mostly stable? 

I really don't have a reason for asking other than pure curiosity.


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## Misty Wegner

About 25ft North to South (flow of river) and about 30ft across from bank to bank..


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