# KNPV Stick Attacks (slow motion)



## Olga Sukonnikova (Apr 16, 2009)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tm8vQYTthEk


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Nice. 
Ther are some big dogs ther. Are they around 40 kg?


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

is he wearing that smooth sleeve to make the dog target higher on the arm where it can get an easier grip ?


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

The decoys and dogs sure take a beating....makes one understand why the Dutch KNPV guys are so fanatic about conditioning about the dogs.
I wonder how many front attacks these dogs have in them?


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

rick smith said:


> is he wearing that smooth sleeve to make the dog target higher on the arm where it can get an easier grip ?


Its to ensure the dog bites in the correct place. Mid bicep is prefered. You see decoys use these a lot when a dog tends to bite lower on the arm. Nothing to do with better grip, just better placement of the dog.


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## Brad Trull (Apr 9, 2012)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Its to ensure the dog bites in the correct place. Mid bicep is prefered. You see decoys use these a lot when a dog tends to bite lower on the arm. Nothing to do with better grip, just better placement of the dog.


 So the bicep area is a preferred spot to subdue an attacker , from the front ?


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Brad Trull said:


> So the bicep area is a preferred spot to subdue an attacker , from the front ?


 
I think she was reffering to the KNPV exercises/training. 

Subdue an attacker points of interest can be debated amongst many for quite some time....


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Brad Trull said:


> So the bicep area is a preferred spot to subdue an attacker , from the front ?


it is effective...


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Brad Trull said:


> So the bicep area is a preferred spot to subdue an attacker , from the front ?


In KNPV it is. On occasion you will see a leg bite, on the front, mid shin. But to find those are extremely rare these days.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Alice Bezemer said:


> In KNPV it is. On occasion you will see a leg bite, on the front, mid shin. But to find those are extremely rare these days.


Yup. Most people/ decoy dont know how to teach it anymore. Dick still prefers it, so most or our dogs are leg dogs. When posted vid on fb he got a lot of comment.

Un cut trainingsvid from last june ( not finished, naughty at man revieren ( b & h):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQGfY5P_96o&feature=youtube_gdata_player


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Yup. Most people/ decoy dont know how to teach it anymore. Dick still prefers it, so most or our dogs are leg dogs. When posted vid on fb he got a lot of comment.
> 
> Un cut trainingsvid from last june ( not finished, naughty at man revieren ( b & h):
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQGfY5P_96o&feature=youtube_gdata_player


That's interesting to see the leg entry in KNPV. To my eye this dog's entry sure isn't as violent as many of the upper arm bites. Is that the way Dick teaches it to protect the decoy and dog? 

Does Dick use leg sleeves to do initial leg foundation or some form of back tie and targeting methods on the suit directly for the foundation?


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Yup. Most people/ decoy dont know how to teach it anymore. Dick still prefers it, so most or our dogs are leg dogs. When posted vid on fb he got a lot of comment.
> 
> Un cut trainingsvid from last june ( not finished, naughty at man revieren ( b & h):
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQGfY5P_96o&feature=youtube_gdata_player


I also prefer leg bites but depending on size of the dog I will go back to the arm...the smaller dogs still go to the leg tho! Liked the vid! That Duvel is a nice looking dog!


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Geoff Empey said:


> That's interesting to see the leg entry in KNPV. To my eye this dog's entry sure isn't as violent as many of the upper arm bites. Is that the way Dick teaches it to protect the decoy and dog?
> 
> Does Dick use leg sleeves to do initial leg foundation or some form of back tie and targeting methods on the suit directly for the foundation?


Duvel is from nature no flyer, you dont want hard attack on the leg cause dog & decoy get easy injured.

Taught on the suit, by targetting from decoy ( where you need the skill and tricks..and those are getting lesser and lesser in knpv). 
Somewhere i have a vid from a dog who is just learning the leg (back), but have to search. And some pics of learning stick attack on the shin from wibo, but have to search them to. I saw a vid od martine with a young dog on the leg (br) and we use similar techniques.


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## Ang Cangiano (Mar 2, 2007)

In KNPV what are the advantages of a leg bite dog v. an arm dog?

Ang


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Ang Cangiano said:


> In KNPV what are the advantages of a leg bite dog v. an arm dog?
> 
> Ang


In KNPV not much, in police practice a leg biter is more reliable. Esquive a dog is usually harder than let a dog miss on the upper body.


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## Ang Cangiano (Mar 2, 2007)

OK, thank you.

Ang


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Found some pics in my old sunday training pics topics: it's an album just scroll further, link is from first pic in a row.

http://www.vanleeuwen-hollandseherders.nl/fotoalbum/Oefenen 29-04-07/album/slides/IMG_0357.html


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Thanks for the info Selena. I always find the training differences between all the bite sports fascinating. I'm pretty sure the leg work foundation that you do is similar to what we do with the French Ring in the beginning too, but without the pivot leg work. 

With French Ring there is a few ways in the foundation part to get the dog to target the legs. Many though use leg sleeves, others back tie the dog and the decoy uses 2 sticks 1 in each hand to guide the dog to the proper target on the pants is what I've seen. Then move the dog to a bungee on a harness to build explosive entries and to not chase the moving leg. I had this discussion with some of the PSA guys as they are getting many Ring dogs crossing over to that sport. Both of my dogs are fliers but they will hit the non moving leg at 50kmh+ not the collar bone or bicep, as that is their secondary target, and only if they get esquived by the decoy. So it scares me for both the dog and decoy to do a KNPV style attack with them. As the timing required by the decoy to catch a fast moving leg dog is just a blink away for having it go very badly. 

Why is it that the new decoys in KNPV are losing the skills to teach the leg? Is it just a training preference that is losing its teachers?


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

I think because teaching leg biters asks for more technique, " flyers" look more spectacular and the knowledge how to teach it just "flows" away. 
Technique is pretty similar to the ring programmes, at least what i saw. We used some "esquive" movements to learn the experienced dogs or the materials in the ring programmes, just to make training more broad.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> I think because teaching leg biters asks for more technique, " flyers" look more spectacular and the knowledge how to teach it just "flows" away.
> Technique is pretty similar to the ring programmes, at least what i saw. We used some "esquive" movements to learn the experienced dogs or the materials in the ring programmes, just to make training more broad.


Teaching leg bites in knpv is also learning the dog to "look" and time, so not an entry at 30mph.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Teaching leg bites in knpv is also learning the dog to "look" and time, so not an entry at 30mph.


Yes big difference in what we teach in French Ring. The way they judge a dog that is tentative that slows and searches for a specific target can be graded as 'slow to bite' though slow to bite can be many things i.e physical opposition from the decoy not letting the dog bite. Though a dog that has slower entries than the flying entries are harder for the decoy to esquive. We simulate that with the bungee work we do, so that the dog remembers the same movement when not on a bungee.


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