# Changing Schutzhund...



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

If you could change the sport of Schutzhund to make it better, what part or parts would you rework?


----------



## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> If you could change the sport of Schutzhund to make it better, what part or parts would you rework?


I'd make it so it's more of a test for the dog. It needs to be less routinized as well. There's no reason a crapola dog should be able to achieve a sch title other than a BH or tracking title.

The biggest problemo is the peeps with the attitude. Not everybody is a rotten apple but I've only seen the schH "elitest" attitude in one other place and that the harmonica world. I give seminars at various haromonica convention and time and time again I see these people who think they are great players because they bought a $200 harmonica and can honk out a little noise. You put them to the test and they say "Oh I'm just abn ear players man and I go by feel" Yeah? Well that doesn't cut it in the real world of being a musician. 

Now there are some great folks in schH, peeps who really know how to train a dog but from what I've seen too many people call themselves dog trainers because they've trained their dog to sit, down, stay, pay attention and heel. That's basic OB in my book. If that's all you can do you ain't no trainer. Just because you can put on a sleeve and stand in the blind like a big chunk of meat doesn't make you a dog trainer either. The attitude and mentality is what needs the biggest change.

BTW- I'm loving Mondio and am pleased with my schH foundation.


----------



## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

I would like to see it go back to the old rules..... sorta like the AWDF titles are now. Change the blind search so that the dog searches each blind - in whatever order - to find the helper that is in whatever blind - not always blind 6. Get rid of the bark and hold or at least let it be a silent guard...to much wasted energy......I *HATE* the bark and hold. An object guard added would be nice;-) No break in between obedience and protection work - stay on the field until both phases are completed - and the helper is visible on the field as well. Get rid of the jute sleeve#-o a bite suit would be nice! Yeah I know I'm stealing from FR and MR but hey there are no such clubs within a days drive of me.....what can I say:-\" ](*,)


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I would change the rules so it became Mondio. Be a lot better, and we would have better dogs for it.


----------



## Barrie Kirkland (Nov 6, 2007)

thats the beauty of sports its a hobby and its a personal choice, Sch isnt mondio , nvbk and vice versa. If you dont enjoy the sport change and do another one that you do like.

Lacey suggests making Sch into ring...well then its not Sch is it. So you would be better doing a ringsport !

Jeff wants Sch to be mondio, but then there would be nobody left to argue with . Well thats the way i see it


----------



## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

SchH has evolved (for better or for worse)....and it is still doing so....SEE RULE CHANGES that may go into effect in a year or so....It has not always been the same....the question was *IF you could change........*one can still dream......... Hey at least I did not say do away with tracking


----------



## Guest (Nov 20, 2008)

Do away with tracking.


----------



## Barrie Kirkland (Nov 6, 2007)

Lacey Vessell said:


> SchH has evolved (for better or for worse)....and it is still doing so....SEE RULE CHANGES that may go into effect in a year or so....It has not always been the same....the question was *IF you could change........*one can still dream......... Hey at least I did not say do away with tracking



Haha tracking bit made me laugh


----------



## Barrie Kirkland (Nov 6, 2007)

ok ok ... get rid of the dumbell retrieve.. what a waste of time haha


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I am kidding. Sch is the most popular and the easiest access sport that we have here in the states.

I actually would love to see some easy changes, not even the rules.

I would like to see the scorebook reflect the points that the handler lost.

This would be a good change, and a simple one, so that you could have a slightly better idea of what the dog was doing.

It is always better to actually see the dog perform, but we are too spread out for that to always happen. I think that would help in decisions made for breeding purposes.

The only other thing in Sch that I would really like to see is the old 1-10 system for pronounced, as well as the judges be held accountable for their giving out of the pronounced in bitework.

But since that is probably a bit controversial, I would be more than happy just to see the scorebook reflect the handlers points off.

I think that I see sport from a former breeders eyes, and not always from a sportsmans eyes. It is why I do not like the excess emphasis on silly shit like the H&B. 

I know that I have cost my dog points, like in his one, where the two points he lost because of me would have put him in a three way tie for first.

Then there was the last trial, where he took his own points, and the easy ones.

As always, back to the drawing board. LOL


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I think a smaller point spread (than 100/100/100) would alleviate alot of problems from the competitive factor. Insufficient, Sufficient, Good, and "Pronounced" would be enough. And less means of training artificial excellence, to instead reveal a "truer picture" of the dog's true nature and ability.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Yes, that is what I liked about the old days. The dogs weren't 9 going for their three cause it wasn't perfect yet. Forgot about that one.


----------



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Jeff your points on the handler mistakes is an excellent one. In the BH, I think it needs to be more than pass/fail. Handler mistakes promote SCH growth. You can't grow if you have no idea what you really did wrong, even with a judge's critique...

Handler issues, nice!


----------



## John Haudenshield (Sep 18, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> If you could change the sport of Schutzhund to make it better, what part or parts would you rework?



1. More Jumping exercises: Long Jump, 1.2M Hurdle, KNPV style Palisade, Hurdle w/ ditch, etc.

2. Stick hits before the bite, e.g KNPV Face Attack.

3. Not loosing points for the dog bumping the helper in the guarding.

4. Integrating some suit exercises or a muzzled attack.

5. Put the gunfire back in the Bh, also drop the minimum age for the Bh back to 12 months.

6. Keep the Tracking/StP, but make them a little more difficult in the earlier stages.

7. Retreival of a non-standard object.


----------



## Daniel Cox (Apr 17, 2006)

Off the top of my head
*Bring back the reed stick and do away with the padded stick
*Make it so the helper can be in any blind and not always 6
*Make the dogs go over a 2 meter wall for SCHH3
*Get ride of the heeling on lead in the BH
*Bring back the attack out of the blind
*Make it so we only have one organization in the United States. It's crazy we have the USA and WDA. We only need one.
*Go to Olympic style judging in the National level trials

There are many other things I would like to change in Schutzhund but remember that it is a dog sport. Nothing is perfect and you do train for a routine in SCHH. I think the reason for the routine is to setup a more structured scoring system. SCHH is far from perfect but remember it is just a sport and not the end of the world. If you need SCHH to tell you a dog is worth breeding then you need wake up. I do not believe any dog sport can tell you if a dog is truly worth breeding. The training for dog sport can give you some real insight to what you have. Dog sport is a sport.... I do not need a SCHH title to tell me if a dog is worth breeding.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

The politics.


----------



## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

It would be nice if the tracking was changed to a more practical form of tracking, where it isn´t so much about training the dog to track in a certain way. Some independent search for articles or persons is also one thing SCH is lacking. This is the major things SCH lacks I think.

Otherwise the protectionroutine could be more or less the same, a little muzzlework would be a nice compliment. Maybe also some more demanding jumps and walls.


----------



## Trish Campbell (Nov 28, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> The only other thing in Sch that I would really like to see is the old 1-10 system for pronounced, as well as the judges be held accountable for their giving out of the pronounced in bitework.


That would be an excellent start..


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> The politics.


And on this it wil all come tumbling down.

We can't use the soft stick at the moment, never mind the reed stick, although with a good dog, this shouldn't make a difference.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I thought that Mondioring evolved from a mixture of KNPV, French Ring and Schiutzhund, so no stealing 

As long as there are human beings judging the dogs, you'll always get some weak examples passing through, but certainly not with high points. There will always be knowledgeable and serious judges who can judge the strength of the dog and there will always be bean counters who can only take off points for each exercise but can't assess whether the dog is cxxp or not.

As for the scorebook - this is only to show the total scores. We have score sheets which we fill in in the scoring office on hand of what the judge gives out for notes. Apart from the commentary, you can see where the dog failed or not.

Change it - yes, I'd like to see a guarding exercise - less patterned bitework exercises, so that maybe only the strong dogs could have success. And first and foremost, an obedience part where I didn't feel like I am ready for the circus. This is where the handler's intelligence is judged.

I'd also like to see that my dog wouldn't get knocked points for the recall by bumping into me before sitting. It's all trainable but for what??

Tracking shouldn't have to follow a set pattern. The start could be between to flags like it used to be in our working trials.and with varying degrees in the corners.

The thing is, as long as we all accept it, nothing will change - moaning and knocking the sport won't help - it'll only drive dog sports people apart and allow politicians to creep in. Mondioring is a relatively new sport - wait a while, until there are far more people doing it - I've seen some weak dogs get through Mondio - Vitamin B.

On the other hand, if you don't want the goods, don't mess 'em around, do your own thing and leave the Schutzhundlers to do theirs.


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

As for the helpers??? There are some very good ones around. It's up to the handler to suss out if the helper has an idea of the dog's strength and weaknesses. Years ago, the biggest and toughest man in the club was good enough. 

Nowadays, brains have replaced brawn. If your judgement as a handler idoesn't amount to much (watching and learning is not forbidden) then you've only yourself to blame. Asking for recommendations from successful handlers is also allowed.

Dumb is as dumb does.....


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Gillian, WTF are you talking about ???? Got a little lost there did ya ???


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Not as lost as you when you're losing it :-\" :-\" :-\"


----------



## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

Get rid of FST oh and did I mention get rid of FST](*,)


----------



## Amber Scott Dyer (Oct 30, 2006)

i just feel that schutzhund is definitely a sport and no longer much of the 'breed test' it was originally intended to be. 

too much emphasis placed on precision obedience, footstep tracking, etc. and not enough emphasis placed on the actual character of the dog in the protection portions. i have been to a trial and saw dogs that were technically correct but lacking in character (in my eyes) scored much higher than others that were great dogs but maybe, say, a little slow to out. 

it just seems to be more of a test of the abilities of the trainer than of the abilities of the dog. 

that said, i like schutzhund if people are honest about the fact that it's a sport and not the be-all-end-all of breed worthiness testing.


----------



## Barrie Kirkland (Nov 6, 2007)

You mean its anal Amber 

I would agree with your comments, to me its technical , robotic & boring. Part C isnt fun its stayed & too precise without seeing the true heart of the dog


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Not as lost as you when you're losing it 

For sure I get a bit unbalanced when I talk about Sch. It was my start in protection sports, and I watched it degrade in my opinion into what it is today.

To me, they made it too happy happy so that people could have success in the sport. They made it so that dogs of a lessor quality could achieve the highest title, 3 which degraded the whole point of that title.

Maybe I am a purist, but what good is all the precision, when the dog all but currs in the courage test and gets pronounced ???? Anyone that has seen a few trials, even if they are novices wonder WTF ??? 

I took my x girlfriend to her first Sch trial, and she was absolutely unimpressed, and a little horrified that the dogs that were trialing for 3 passed.

The "hard" is what makes or breaks things for me. I guess that is why I get a bit mental when I talk about Sch.

For me, with my first dog, I got a 1, and that was all the farther she was going. All that did was make me more careful about choosing my next dog, and I trained much harder. 

I like Mondio, I may never be any good at it, but that is OK. I just went to a trial that was really difficult, and my dog showed his ass pretty much the entire time. That is OK too, as it was a very hard 2. I learned more in those two days about how to train and trial my dog than in all the years previous.

So for me, with Sch, I loose it, because I do not care for PC. I do not care to hear that a cur just got pronounced, and passed.

I do not see the shame in not achieving the highest title in a sport, if the dog is not all that. Too me, it shows great character in the trainer that went out with less dog and gave it a tremendous effort.

There will always be the next dog. Take the sport back to where the judge was not inhibited by pressure of popularity to tell someone that their dog was not enough. I have had dogs like that, most people have, it is not that big a deal. But I do lose it a little when they weaken the sport to accomadate weaker players.


----------



## Amber Scott Dyer (Oct 30, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Maybe I am a purist, but what good is all the precision, when the dog all but currs in the courage test and gets pronounced ???? Anyone that has seen a few trials, even if they are novices wonder WTF ???


that makes me remember....the first trial I ever went to was a schutzhund trial about four years ago, and i had only been to a training club a few times. and I remember i never said anything, but I was wondering why a particular dog that hesitated on the entry on the long bite and had a front of the mouth grip ended up getting a 91 in the protection portion. i wasn't even sure what it was supposed to really look like, only that some of the older dogs i'd seen in our club looked way cooler when they did it. :-D


----------



## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Gillian Schuler said:


> As for the scorebook - this is only to show the total scores. We have score sheets which we fill in in the scoring office on hand of what the judge gives out for notes. Apart from the commentary, you can see where the dog failed or not.


Where do these score sheets end up? I've never seen one, only asked a couple friends real quick but they haven't seen them either. I'd love to see a scoresheet, then I wouldn't have to rely on the verbal critique to know where the points were lost, since the judges don't always mention everything. Not to mention the video camera isn't always rolling.


----------



## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

The only score sheets I know of are the ones that the judge fills out and which are copied and sent to USA. The judge keeps a copy for himself as well. 

I guess the Trial Secretary could make an extra copy to give to each competitor if they wanted one. Of course, it wouldn't do a lot of good if the judge wrote everything in German! :lol:


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Daniel Cox said:


> Off the top of my head
> *Bring back the reed stick and do away with the padded stick
> *Make it so the helper can be in any blind and not always 6
> *Make the dogs go over a 2 meter wall for SCHH3
> ...


I agree that a Schurzhund title doesn't make the dog breed worthy than what dose or who dose how do you measure how do you bring the best together HOW DO YOU COMPAIR or do you just take the Willie the dog mans word.


----------



## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

The first schutzhund trial I went to was '08 WUSV. When my wife, who doesn't know much about protection sports, saw what schutzhund is all about, she says "this is all they do". So I had to do a little explaining:-s . I do schutzhund because that is what is close to me, not my first choice, but I enjoy it because I get to train with my dog, and have learned more about dogs in the last year than all my previous 20yrs of dog ownership. I think schutzhund is a good sport for beginning handlers.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Mike, when I first started Sch, if a dog was pronounced in the protection phase, the you KNOW he was bringing it. There was a 1 to 10 scale as well.

It was pretty accurate of what the dog was. They did not BS about that back then. Lots of dogs got sufficient.


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Mike, when I first started Sch, if a dog was pronounced in the protection phase, the you KNOW he was bringing it. There was a 1 to 10 scale as well.
> 
> It was pretty accurate of what the dog was. They did not BS about that back then. Lots of dogs got sufficient.


I agree with what you are saying since it has morphed into a sport we must do our homework and study talk to people who have worked the dog go see the dog and maybe test the dog some our self. Schutzhund still can be used as a breed test most people don't know or understand shit about Schutzhund. If you look at my dog's sire Kway his H&B is ok nothing to piss your pants over you have to gauge the dog's and the breeding. If people understood the dogs and Schutzhund (and most don't) they would know the difference between a shitter SCH III and a Stud SCH III 
As I have stated befor I enjoy the sport of Schutzhund and I also value it as merit to test.


----------



## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

I think aquiring the precision of OB and TR and then still having enough dog left for C is tough for a lot of people and even tougher for a lot of dogs. That's the beauty of it for me. I do think sports like Mondio allow you to see more of who the dog really is. And I do agree that SchH has been and still is more of a test of training skill,other then the charcter of a dog. But that's what I want. I am interested in training. Not breeding. Not providing Police departments, or the military with dogs. I also do not think that I am or the entire sport of SchH is powerful enough to rob the world of good working dogs. If the Malinois eventually fails to fit real world needs, just as the GSD is ( no offense to the GSD people) Evolution will happen. regardless of me and SchH and a new breed will take the helm. I am interested in sport, thats it. So SchH is a good fit for me. The only breeding I will do is to aquire my next dog. The lines I have are healthy, have done well, and produce dogs that have what I need. So that's about it. Could the dogs I like, own or wish to breed and take pups from work for real? I do not really care. That's not what I do. I just want to share my life with a dog, and have something structured to do together. SchH fits that bill for me.

So what would I change about SchH? Not much. I would like to see more regulation for helper work, at the levels of Club--> Worlds. I seen a trial on tape with a "national" level certified helper at Club trial who worked maybe 6 dogs, The decoy was short, but thick. He worked 5 dogs all the same, they were all the same size. Due to the helpers size and the height of the dogs, he could not deliver super powerful stick hits, nor pick up the dogs front legs on the drive. But the last was a little bitch he pickup off her front legs, and because he was much taller over this little bitch he damn near cut her in half with the stick. Not that he should take it easy. But how is that fair? You have to work all the dogs the same. 

Oh I had an idea for another protection exercise But I doubt it would ever even be considered. One where the dog is in the middle of the field with the handler. 2 decoys run out of the same blind. The slower decoy at the judges signal or the handlers command goes neutral (stands still) while the other decoy continues to run and the dog has to catch the still escaping decoy. Something that would show the dog could discern between a man whom has given up and one who has not.


And Jeff did you Quit SchH because of what it was becoming?


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Daniel Cox said:


> Off the top of my head
> *Bring back the reed stick and do away with the padded stick


That would send about 1/4 of them back to the truck


----------



## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

I also think that the stick plays a culutral issue. I think we would bring a lot of unwanted attention to the sport by using a hard stick.


----------



## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Honest to god, I'd like to see the rules roll back to around 1980, put back a lot of stuff they took out that I have no clue why they took it out - EXCEPT I think to make the sport more politically correct which sucks doodoo. I also would like "pronounced" to actually mean something. All in all, and once again popularity & easy access rears it's ugly head.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

James, it was embarrassing how hard people seemed to be working to water the sport down, how the judges just seemed to "go along" so that they would have opportunities to judge, and how so many people just went along. It was all so gradual, and no one stood up and said **** you. They just went along and grumbled, something that working dog people are famous for.

It kind of ties in what Mike said about his dogs sire not having a good B&H. For me, the whole stinking thing is a shaped exersize. years ago, I would have laughed my ass off if you told me that anyone would ever put so much emphasis on such a bullshit exersize. Now, it is the primary focus in training.

I was thinking about when I quit the sport a lot today. I think that I could or would not be so stinking bitter about the whole thing if they had just came out and said that they were going to water down the sport so that everyone can play.

It was all the BS about "improving the sport of Schutzhund" that got me.

They didn't improve shit.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Ditto with Susan!
I wasn't doing Schutzhund untill receintly (last 5-6 yrs) but I did see enough of the early stuff to know it's watered down. 
Most of the changes such as the attack out of the blind were made to make it easier for the showlines to pass. If the dog can't do it correctly don't breed it! That wont happen. The show folks rule because of money. 
I have no problems with club trials being a bit easier then regionals or higher. If they were all at a national level of scoring then nobody would do it. It still needs to weed out the crap "pronounced" $#!+ though. 
Everyone knows my love for FST:-o . I wish there were a better way of testing the dog's nose. Article search, whatever. I know a "real" search type scenario would be to hard to set up as equal for all participants because it would be impossible to send different dogs into the exact same situations and still grade equally. 
Schutzhund is more of a handler's or trainers game then really seeing the dog at it's best.
Anything that requires a "judgement" call will eventually fall/evolve into a competition sport simply in order to level the playing field. When Sch was first used to really test a dog the "level field" wasn't a consideration. The dog did it or it didn't. 
Being the civilized folks we are 8-[ :twisted: will keep it all a game!


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Where do these score sheets end up? I've never seen one, only asked a couple friends real quick but they haven't seen them either. I'd love to see a scoresheet, then I wouldn't have to rely on the verbal critique to know where the points were lost, since the judges don't always mention everything. Not to mention the video camera isn't always rolling.


We have them in Switzerland for all our dog sports, Mondio, SchH, Avalanche, Swiss SchH etc. The Technical Commission wanted to do away with them but the handlers voted to keep them. I don't think all European countries use them. 

I think there are slight differences among the member countries for IPO. In Switzerland "Schutzhund" stands for our National Schutzhund sport which resembles a working trial.


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

James Downey said:


> I also think that the stick plays a culutral issue. I think we would bring a lot of unwanted attention to the sport by using a hard stick.


We already have here :-( We're not allowed to use it but there are petitions and talks going on at the moment to stop it being banned.


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I don't know how it is over the "big pond" but a lot of breeders in Switzerland, Germany, Austria, etc. do not look at the Schutzhund sport as a criteria on which to base the type of dogs they want to breed. 

Schutzhund is a tradition over here in many countries and I doubt whether Mondio will become more popular. The dumber the handler, the less chance he has of success even with a good dog. An intelligent handler can obviously get a weaker dog far at regional trials. I think the handlers like pitting their wits against each other in competitions, safe in the knowledge that there are still breeders like I said above and, not to be forgotten, working judges that can still judge a dog's strength and that wouldn't give good marks to a prey sucker who did everything correctly but without drive and force.

I'd like to see a tougher protection phase, a less precise obedience section but a "different" course at each trial and tracking where the handler can't reckon out where it's going.


----------



## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Ditto with Susan!
> Everyone knows my love for FST:-o . I wish there were a better way of testing the dog's nose. Article search, whatever. I know a "real" search type scenario would be to hard to set up as equal for all participants because it would be impossible to send different dogs into the exact same situations and still grade equally.
> !


This is something you have in some police-trials or sports like KNPV and the swedish workingprogramm, so that would be no problem I assume.

On the other hand, no one force breeders or potential buyers to breed/choose mediocre pointdogs, so SCH in itself is not the main problem, it´s the search for high points insted of looking at the total dog, in and outside a trialsituation. However, as Gillian said, not all looks for scores and well-known competitiondogs when doing breedingdecisions.


----------



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Bob Scott said:


> ...it's watered down.
> Most of the changes such as the attack out of the blind were made to make it easier for the showlines to pass. If the dog can't do it correctly don't breed it! That wont happen. The show folks rule because of money!


BOB! Now you've done it, hurt my feelings...I wanted a pretty dog that could look good biting too! Boo-hoo! What's a person to do?  8-[ 8-[


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Erik Berg said:


> This is something you have in some police-trials or sports like KNPV and the swedish workingprogramm, so that would be no problem I assume.
> 
> On the other hand, no one force breeders or potential buyers to breed/choose mediocre pointdogs, so SCH in itself is not the main problem, it´s the search for high points insted of looking at the total dog, in and outside a trialsituation. However, as Gillian said, not all looks for scores and well-known competitiondogs when doing breedingdecisions.


And that was my point there are still people bringing in dogs and breeding dog that aren't point dogs even in the state the sport is in.
Another thing that strikes me as odd about allot of comments made here is the fact that Schutzhund dogs wont or cant work. Of the 15 or so dogs in our club there are 3 that due to there temperament that could never ride in a police car. Is our club that unique? I hope not.
How many here made a effort to buy the best dog/pup they could get your hands on or could afford. I asked for help when choosing my last pup and the one befor. My TD has been in the sport since the 70's and breeding dog's since then and has made a huge effort studying bloodlines and pedigrees making contacts here and abroad. She was a huge resource I had when I was looking for my dog pup.


----------



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Mike Scheiber said:


> ...Another thing that strikes me as odd about allot of comments made here is the fact that Schutzhund dogs wont or cant work....I had when I was looking for my dog pup.


Mike that is where I think you are wrong. They can work, but not for the applications some of us want them to do, PPDs. Sport dogs are trained for the sport, they work in that venue because they understand the game. Take them out and put real pressure on some and they fold, others bite very well. 

I have seen some real nice dogs, but the grip pressure for PSD or PPD use isn't there. Part of the reason could be too much pressure as young pups or dogs. No, I think Schuzhund dogs have been created for the game that they are doing, hence they do it well.


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Mike that is where I think you are wrong. They can work, but not for the applications some of us want them to do, PPDs. Sport dogs are trained for the sport, they work in that venue because they understand the game. Take them out and put real pressure on some and they fold, others bite very well.
> 
> I have seen some real nice dogs, but the grip pressure for PSD or PPD use isn't there. Part of the reason could be too much pressure as young pups or dogs. No, I think Schuzhund dogs have been created for the game that they are doing, hence they do it well.


A few do slip through to do police work as you can see from the following link for Switzerland alone :lol: :lol: :lol: :

http://www.spv-fsccp.ch/Ranglisten/Ranglisten.htm


----------



## John Haudenshield (Sep 18, 2006)

Erik Berg said:


> On the other hand, no one force breeders or potential buyers to breed/choose mediocre pointdogs, so SCH in itself is not the main problem, it´s the search for high points insted of looking at the total dog, in and outside a trialsituation. However, as Gillian said, not all looks for scores and well-known competitiondogs when doing breedingdecisions.


Take for example, van Tiekerhook. Koos' dogs have had a large influence on the breed. Many of his dogs have worked as PSDs, in SchH/IPO & KNPV. He started in Police work & the KNPV, but ever since the early '80's has been all SchH, VH, IPO. He doesn't breed point dogs and he makes breeding decisions based on information far beyond what a SchH, or KNPV title for that matter, would tell him.

This isn't a big sales pitch for Koos, I'm just using him as an example. You could just as easily look to people like Arthur Kemmer, Appie Kamps, Jan Tinnemans...they all have decades of breeding experience producing everything from SchH dogs to Police/Military Dogs.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

QUOTE: Everyone knows my love for FST . I wish there were a better way of testing the dog's nose.

The test is rather pointless if you think about it. Mals showed up and proved it useless. They came from generations of dogs that were not tested for tracking at all, just the scent discrimination.


----------



## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Jeff...It's all pointless. FST, B&H, Dumbbells, Send outs... Checking- IN??? and Tattoo Checks??? 

I will not argue, denie or try to make SchH sound like a good test of the dog....It's not. It's a great test of a trainers ability. It does put some pressure on the dog...it does. But if it was a reliable test for Police dogs, police dept. would use it.

And now with the players tourney, and cash prizes. It's only going to become more of a training spectacle than a test. But there is some merit to having a good dog, I mean your still going to need a dog with some huevos and animation to make a nice picture. But I do not think that will be the focus of the trials anymore.

I am not arguing with you. I think your right. But I am still looking for dogs that are top notch in nerves and drive.


----------



## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

James Downey said:


> I also think that the stick plays a culutral issue. I think we would bring a lot of unwanted attention to the sport by using a hard stick.


This is the kind of thinking that assists in watering down our sport. People need to defend what they know to be right rather than cowtowing to the people who have no clue. There was nothing wrong with the reed stick, it is not cruel, we all knew it then and we know it now. If we were as brave as some of our dogs or had even half the fight drive we want to see in our dogs then we would stand up for what we know is right, rather than rolling over & pissing ourselves for PITA and the rest of the idiots. If we continue along this vein our sport will soon be nothing more than obedience, and it's our own fault. Those of you in other sports, please take heed of what popularity breeds and stay true to your convictions.

This whole subject is too damn depressing for words because that's all it is, nothing will change for the better because those in power only care about the $$$ & the more you placate John Q Public the more people will want to join our happy little easy everybody wins a prize sport.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

James, for what the GSD was intended to be, I think that Sch is a good way to look at that breed.

Like Susan says, I don't give a **** what the public thinks about the hard stick, the same as I don't take the advice of people that do not know what they are talking about. They mean well, but are clueless.

The current trend to bend to what the public "might" think is complete and utter bullshit. Where are they all at ????? I cannot remember the last trial I went to that had "the public" there.

Most of my friend went to at least one Sch trial to watch my dogs back in the day. They all just drank beer and hardly watched the dang trial, as it was boring and they had no clue what was going on. By the time I hit the field they were drunk and cheering me on.

Afterwards they told me that if they didn't have beer, and it wasn't such a nice day out, they would have left. So to me, "worry" about what the public is thinking is complete bullshit.

To me it is like when I use the word **** and "they" are all offended. Same shit, just trying to control. I have heard way to many people say way more offensive things than the word ****, and no one freaks out about that. Look at the offensive rule changes. If they had said ****, maybe someone would have said something. LOL


----------



## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

susan tuck said:


> This is the kind of thinking that assists in watering down our sport. People need to defend what they know to be right rather than cowtowing to the people who have no clue. There was nothing wrong with the reed stick, it is not cruel, we all knew it then and we know it now. If we were as brave as some of our dogs or had even half the fight drive we want to see in our dogs then we would stand up for what we know is right, rather than rolling over & pissing ourselves for PITA and the rest of the idiots. If we continue along this vein our sport will soon be nothing more than obedience, and it's our own fault. Those of you in other sports, please take heed of what popularity breeds and stay true to your convictions.


Unfortunately it's not just JQ Public, or just the Sch people, that are on the PC bandwagon. I had a depressing conversation recently with someone in Mondio Ring who felt there was no need to hit the dog with a stick to test it, that using the soft articles in MR to "hit" the dog could test the dog just as thouroughly as any stick hit in FR or Sch, there was no difference to the dog once it was on the bite. They agreed with the banning of stick hits and felt the sports that used them should just accept that they will eventually be forced to change and find another more PC way to test the dogs. And they supported that change. I finally just said "let's drop the PC crap, the reality is stick hits hurt. The accessories in MR can test the dog, but it's a different type of test as multiple hard stick hits from a decoy. And the day they quit allowing the decoy/helper to hit the dog, is the day I quit doing the sport." I like Mondio Ring, have competed in it in the past, and plan to again in the future, but IMO it's biggest weak spot as a test is the lack of any sort of stick hit. Just like I would like to see some accesories in FR. And I'd like to see more stick hits in Sch, and a little more variety in the excersises. None are perfect, but if we let this PC crap take hold, soon what we will have left won't be worth bothering with. May as well just go do AKC obedience, agility and tracking, you will have the same test. And actually I prefer AKC tracking over Sch tracking, so I already think that's a better test LOL


----------



## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

Kadi- I was just thinking the same thing.](*,) The ones we have to worry about are in our clubs etc. Maybe we can add by-law protection where as when we hear members talking like that they will be immediately removed from the club or parent club? We really have to make an effort to keep these people from getting on any executive boards.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I have had my decoys hit Buko with the stick, and it was no different than it was without the stick. He didn't notice that anyone could see. he doesn't notice much of anything exept the decoy.

In the 80's I trained a dog to Sch 3 without even using a stick. Then we had a little mock trial, and the helper hit him with the stick. No different than in training, and we didn't have padded sticks. He had three long welts on his side, and could have cared less.

For me, the stick hit I could take or leave. The attack with accessories is good enough for me, as it shows what the dog is.

I have never needed to hit a dog to tell if it was a quality dog. But, if they added stick hits to Mondio, I would care less.

Many people love Mals from Belgium. Have you ever seen the lame ass stick work there????? (Kadi, I know you have LOL)

Honestly, I would add stick hits to Mondio just so that people that believe differently from me would play, and just to stick it to those that are so against them. : )


----------



## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

> Have you ever seen the lame ass stick work there????? (Kadi, I know you have LOL)[/qupte]
> 
> Sure, and I've also seen BR titled dogs that couldn't do an FR face attack. Put down a barrage that the decoy didn't pull, esquive them once or twice, and the dog quit and went home. Pull out some accessories and the dog is suddenly king kong.
> 
> To a good dog, stick or no stick shouldn't matter. But I've seen enough dogs come off under the stick that will hang on through any accessory, and vice versa dogs that will blow off under an accessory that you can beat all day with a stick, to think that they test the exact same thing in a dog. I've also seen dogs that will going through any stick barrage, not go through accessories, and vice versa. And I'm not talking about a dog seeing it for the first time, I'm talking about dogs that were trained for it. If the stick and accessory were truly equal in what they tested then any MRIII dog should be able to do FRIII and vice versa, at an honest trial. And I don't believe this is true.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I think training is the major factor there. You are doing things completely foreign to the dog.

If MR3 dogs could cross straight over to FR, then we might start seeing what is up.

So I think that it is more training than anything. The FR dogs are started with the stick at a really early age, and it becomes part of the bitework, through the positive negative crap.

What isn't mentioned, is how many FR3 dogs just stop working because of the stick hits. People forget to mention that. there are plenty of those dogs as well.


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Mike that is where I think you are wrong. They can work, but not for the applications some of us want them to do, PPDs. Sport dogs are trained for the sport, they work in that venue because they understand the game. Take them out and put real pressure on some and they fold, others bite very well.
> 
> I have seen some real nice dogs, but the grip pressure for PSD or PPD use isn't there. Part of the reason could be too much pressure as young pups or dogs. No, I think Schuzhund dogs have been created for the game that they are doing, hence they do it well.


I'm not going to go back and forth and argue but I will mention we have cops sneak over and train with us away from there departments including the one now being featured on Animal Planet tuning there dogs for certification and competition and have had them work and critique our dog's some with envy.:mrgreen: Not that I/we needed them to validate what we know what we already have.:mrgreen:


----------



## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I think training is the major factor there. You are doing things completely foreign to the dog.


I specifically mentioned the dogs had prior training, this wasn't something that was just sprung on them for the first time.



> If MR3 dogs could cross straight over to FR, then we might start seeing what is up.


They can. So far though I don't think anyone in the US has done it. 



> So I think that it is more training than anything.


I disagree. Seen to many dogs who were brought up in a sport fail because of the pressure aspects of that sport to think it's just about the training. 



> The FR dogs are started with the stick at a really early age, and it becomes part of the bitework, through the positive negative crap.


Yup, and the MR dogs are brought up with the accessories, which just become part of the bitework also over time. And the Sch dogs are brought up with the soft stick. But, moving on to your next comment



> What isn't mentioned, is how many FR3 dogs just stop working because of the stick hits. People forget to mention that. there are plenty of those dogs as well.


You are right. Which goes back to what I mentioned above, that dogs with good training can fail because of the pressure aspect, even dogs who had the training required to get them to a III.

I'm not saying FR dogs are tougher because they take stick hits. What I'm saying is I don't believe accessories which the dogs know through a lifetime of repetition won't hurt them test the dogs in the same manner as a stick hit which they know does hurt. I'm not saying the accessories don't test the dog though either. Take away the ability to see your target, make a dog push through an unknown, and then cover him up while he's on the bite visually and some dogs will really freak. Especially if you add in the ability to esquive if the dog avoids the accessory on the initial entry, so they have to push through it without any of their initial speed. Maybe the dog is great with pool noodles and streamers, but doesn't like plastic jugs with rocks (noise sensitive) or hates water. 

A good dog is a good dog and shouldn't have problems with whatever form of pressure each sport dishes out. But I've seen dogs at the III level in all 3 of the sports mentioned here who couldn't do the top level in one of the other sports, for whatever reason. So I don't think life and dogs are as black and white as "if the dog can handle X it can handle Y".


----------



## Jack Martin (Feb 12, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I am kidding. Sch is the most popular and the easiest access sport that we have here in the states.
> 
> I actually would love to see some easy changes, not even the rules.
> 
> ...


Jeff , half the crap you say does what you intend it to do and piss the schutzhund people off.But these comments make alot of sense. I guess Jeff #3 0r #5 ,(not sure how many there are ) spoke this time.J/k

Scoring could definetly be done in a way where the team goes home with thoughts on what they need to improve on in the book itself.Not hoping someone took video of the crituqe.
I would also like to go back 50 years to where the titles meant more.The testing or Titles so to speak should raise signifcantly in pressure with the levels.*Obedience and Bite work are one*. 
Tracking is still something that is a foundation for any dog to move toward other methods.You can't go back to footsteps but you can always move forward to trailing etc.


----------



## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

Don´t think SCH-stickhits has any real breedingvalue, a dog with decent drive and not very weak in mentality shouldn´t have a problem with that, so for breeding a few stickhits don´t tell you much. But all sports are based on things the dog has trained much on, or associate with something, so to see what the dog really is made of you need to see it in sitautions where it´s outside it´s usual sport-environment.


----------



## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> James, for what the GSD was intended to be, I think that Sch is a good way to look at that breed.
> 
> Like Susan says, I don't give a **** what the public thinks about the hard stick, the same as I don't take the advice of people that do not know what they are talking about. They mean well, but are clueless.
> 
> ...


 
Jeff for the public thing. 2 clubs in SoCal train on public parks. one right across from a dog park, the other in little league park. The public is watching.

And Susan. That's not my thinking. That's the reality of the situation. Me and you know what's going on. But I think that's a battle we would lose. In anyother context hitting a dog with a stick is abuse. The public's not going to make the distinction. It only makes sense to go to the padded stick. If we were to fight about this against a group like PETA. We may be in jeopardy of losing our entire sport. Because in thier minds Schutzhund is a sport where they hit the dog with a stick. And that's all they will see. So Schutzhund training in it's entirity maybe deemed abusive. wiseman say; Sometimes you have to be like small palm tree, and bend with the wind. Not like big oak and break when big wind comes. 

And if SchH gets to watered down. I will find something else to with my dog. I like SchH, But when I compare Stick hits to starving kids in uganda digging out blood diamonds. It's not really high on my list on things this world needs have activists for.


----------



## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

James it is the attitude of rolling over for no good reason that I don't like, the stick non-issue is an example of all the rolling over as of late. Having the defeatist attitude sure doesn't help the situation either. As to whether or not it's a worthwhile battle, that's up to the individual, just don't wonder why when schutzhund becomes nothing but part A & B.


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

ditto!!

It's like letting the salesman get his foot in the door........


----------



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

For those who have not trained as a Schutzhund decoy, the stick hits aren't a way of beating the dog off the sleeve. It is a "test" to determine how well the dog will hold up under "pressure." Just as the leg misses are to Ring, the test to see if the dog will refocus and redrive towards the target. 

I still feel it is a game and now longer a breed test. It is something for the folks to do with working dogs. Just as there are few of us sheep folk around, herding outlets help keep the working dog's mind sharp and its breeding geared towards the thing that once was...:-$ Just don't tell the Yuppies, they think it is still the real deal! :razz:


----------



## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> For those who have not trained as a Schutzhund decoy, the stick hits aren't a way of beating the dog off the sleeve. It is a "test" to determine how well the dog will hold up under "pressure." Just as the leg misses are to Ring, the test to see if the dog will refocus and redrive towards the target.
> 
> I still feel it is a game and now longer a breed test. It is something for the folks to do with working dogs. Just as there are few of us sheep folk around, herding outlets help keep the working dog's mind sharp and its breeding geared towards the thing that once was...:-$ Just don't tell the Yuppies, they think it is still the real deal! :razz:



I wish there were more stick hits. They really turn on my dog. :mrgreen:


----------



## Jack Martin (Feb 12, 2008)

Chris Michalek said:


> I wish there were more stick hits. They really turn on my dog. :mrgreen:


 My bitch loves to get hit.She might just hump ya to the ground if you hit her hard enough.:-o


----------



## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> James it is the attitude of rolling over for no good reason that I don't like, the stick non-issue is an example of all the rolling over as of late. Having the defeatist attitude sure doesn't help the situation either. As to whether or not it's a worthwhile battle, that's up to the individual, just don't wonder why when schutzhund becomes nothing but part A & B.


 
I won't wonder. I will just move on with life.


----------



## David Scholes (Jul 12, 2008)

James Downey said:


> Jeff for the public thing. 2 clubs in SoCal train on public parks. one right across from a dog park, the other in little league park. The public is watching...


All the more reason to stand up and not let the PC crap change how you train. If PETA has their way your dogs (if you are allowed to own them) will be eating soy beans. Next it will be you can't teach them to B&H or bite a sleeve because you are teaching them to bite. If you GIVE them one thing (ex stick hits), they just view it as a victory then go for more. You have to fight or at least go down fighting or eventually you have nothing. Hide from the public, then when you are in PETA's sites the only thing they will know is the propaganda they will spew from the media.


----------



## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Hell, if PETA and the other "animal rights" organizations have their way, there will be no more breeders of dogs at all anymore. THAT'S where this is going. In fact, PETA believes it is ethically and morally wrong to keep dogs as pets becauses they feel it exploits animals to raise or use them for any human endeavour or purpose. Don't believe me? Do some research for yourself. The issue is if you continue to let them roll you over nothing, what makes you think they will ever stop pushing? 

So while this issue may not be near the top of what is near and dear to your heart, James, it is very important to many of us. As for clubs that train in the public eye, while this makes things difficult for them, I don't see how this could possibly be a good excuse to continue watering down the sport, for all the reasons previously stated by myself and others.


----------



## Jack Martin (Feb 12, 2008)

PeTA bread is off topic although i agree


----------



## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

I can see your POV. I really can. I do understand that many have a passion to preserve what they love. I respect that.And think it is honorable to fight for what you love. And I to be truthful, It would bother me dearly if I lost my sport. 

The issue with ethics and culutral on what we are doing with dogs is not just critized by folks like PETA. Every day folks whom are not on the extreme are ignorant and judge it. Even when I first saw SchH, the first thought in my mind is there is no way I would ever teach a dog to do that. I would never hit my dog....And when I saw a whip come out. My imagination ran wild with that was about. That was based out of ignorance. Obviously. Based on the knowledge that a person is smart, but People are stupid. I wonder what the social pressure would be if someone tried to go on the offensive against us. Using the stick as ammunition. And my imagination was not so far off with the whip. I have seen the whip used as a stick and the bitter end of the popper used to hit a dog in training. All of this is can be used as arguments against what we are doing. And at first sight, you have to admit it does not look so kind to the dog. 

So we have 2 ways of mitigating this: we can continue to go about our buisness in the same fashion. Possibly even revert to methods and equipment that can be critized even further. And not that the judgment is real, But preceived and sadly perception becomes the reality in the mind of some. And we can fight it if it comes to the wire.

The consequences of this are. Possibly winning and having it our way. The only problem with this is I am having a hard time how we can make people see it our way. Just as it is hard for others to see your way on this internet forum. I cannot see argument that will be powerful enough to change the minds of people whom will be accusing. And they will have some pretty stiff evidence...Even if it is only percieved to be much crueler than it actually is. A case in point is a friend of mine whom teaches. taught a lesson in school using an E-collar.She actually used the collar on the kids....The kids were highschool age. the lesson was voluntary and valid to the subject being learned. Now I know this woman and know she is an excellent teacher. Earning some of the most prestigous awards in the state. Anyone who knows her, knows she has no ill intent, knows what she is doing. This is not by any means a cruelity case. But someone wrote an anynonmous letter to the school board. A few months later she was fighting for her job. Some heard e-collar and children in the same sentence and went bananas. 

So the other consequence of not bending is not winning and possibly having the whole kit and kooble at stake. at the min. a court ruling could force the FCI, USA or who ever to envoke a rule to eliminates stick hits or the stick all together. at the Max. Regualtion on who can conduct protection style training. 

But if you try to cooperate and meet in the middle. Such as going to a padded stick. You may have an argument that you share the same concerns. Though it may add some water to the mix. You still may have preserved something. Now it could all go south still, and this may not work. But I think the chances are greater for success. 

This is not a tactic of rolling over and being weak. This is a tactic of being intellgent...showing some sort of pro-action, and being a leader. I assure you, people recieve peoples ideas when they try to work with them. 

The great chief seattle said, Force no matter how concealed will always create resistance.

The all or nothing stance is fine. But prepared to have nothing. The fight like hell method could also very well lead to Sch just becoming A and B.


----------



## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I respectfully and vehemently disagree. Just as you yourself and all of us were once new and had to learn about the sport,and did not understand certain things but eventually learned these things were not cruel to the dogs (as we all did), new people today, who are truly interested in learning the sport are just as capable of learning the same things we did. The difference is this sport was NEVER intended to appeal to the masses, it is very specialized, and not for everyone and not for every dog, but rather than keep it specialized, and for various reasons, including money and greed, this ends up with the sport suffering so that it appeals to the masses. Unfortunately this will also contribute to getting us to the point where schutzhund titles will eventually be completely worthless.

Between popularity and PETA we are screwed!!!


----------



## Jason Sidener (Nov 8, 2006)

I would like to see USA go to the DVG rule of not allowing clubs to choose the judge they want.

I would like to see the style of tracking changed to something more practical and realy tests the dogs hunt drive.

I would like to see more agility added to the obedience and muzzle work added to the protection.


----------



## Rose DeLuca (Oct 24, 2008)

Great question ! I would eliminate the foot step tracking in favor of "real" trailing/tracking with a person. The protection routine could be worked into the person/find at the end of the track. Gun shots could even be fired as dog is tracking. 

At the end the dog could go back into the contaminated area and find an article dropped from the helper/suspects pocket in that area. 

How cool would that be ? !!


----------



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Chris and Jack, you folks don't also wear the mask and boots with your dogs, do ya? Erh..........love the beat'n! :wink:


----------



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

susan tuck said:


> I respectfully and vehemently disagree. Just as you yourself and all of us were once new and had to learn about the sport,and did not understand certain things but eventually learned these things were not cruel to the dogs (as we all did), new people today, who are truly interested in learning the sport are just as capable of learning the same things we did. The difference is this sport was NEVER intended to appeal to the masses, it is very specialized, and not for everyone and not for every dog, but rather than keep it specialized, and for various reasons, including money and greed, this ends up with the sport suffering so that it appeals to the masses. Unfortunately this will also contribute to getting us to the point where schutzhund titles will eventually be completely worthless.
> 
> Between popularity and PETA we are screwed!!!


Susan, well put!!! Thank you...=D>


----------



## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> I respectfully and vehemently disagree. Just as you yourself and all of us were once new and had to learn about the sport,and did not understand certain things but eventually learned these things were not cruel to the dogs (as we all did), new people today, who are truly interested in learning the sport are just as capable of learning the same things we did. The difference is this sport was NEVER intended to appeal to the masses, it is very specialized, and not for everyone and not for every dog, but rather than keep it specialized, and for various reasons, including money and greed, this ends up with the sport suffering so that it appeals to the masses. Unfortunately this will also contribute to getting us to the point where schutzhund titles will eventually be completely worthless.
> 
> Between popularity and PETA we are screwed!!!


 
So, Susan. You have identified the problem. You have stated that the plan of action in place is not acceptable. 

So what is the answer?


----------



## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> I respectfully and vehemently disagree. Just as you yourself and all of us were once new and had to learn about the sport,and did not understand certain things but eventually learned these things were not cruel to the dogs (as we all did), new people today, who are truly interested in learning the sport are just as capable of learning the same things we did. The difference is this sport was NEVER intended to appeal to the masses, it is very specialized, and not for everyone and not for every dog, but rather than keep it specialized, and for various reasons, including money and greed, this ends up with the sport suffering so that it appeals to the masses. Unfortunately this will also contribute to getting us to the point where schutzhund titles will eventually be completely worthless.
> 
> Between popularity and PETA we are screwed!!!


 
Susan, I may not agree. But you strike me as an intellgent woman. And you have a lot of passion on this subject. That's enough to lead me to believe you may be on to something. With reluctance I will accept you POV and wish to aid with your method. We have identified the problem. We have seen the result. And we would like to change what is happening. What do you suggest we do? What would be the best course of action? How shall we fight.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Jeff , half the crap you say does what you intend it to do and piss the schutzhund people off.But these comments make alot of sense. I guess Jeff #3 0r #5 ,(not sure how many there are ) spoke this time.J/k

Of course I intend to piss you people off. They changed the rules and shutzhund people just rolled over and took it.

THe title whores were feasting at the sch 3 table back then. How great was it that they could get their piss weak dogs titled at the highest level in a breed test and get away with it?

So sure, its a little late with most people that do Sch, they just know the sport as it is now, but the basic roll over and take it mentality is still there. I mean, how hard is it to see that the BHold is a shaped behavior?? Yet there you all are looking at useless videos of the BHold?????

Followers LOL

Kadi. How long were the dogs in the disciplines they were in before you got them, and subject them to another sport ???

I just do not see stick hits vital to shit. Most of the dogs being bred in this country are not the best and the brightest, but the best marketed. Maybe if we changed that...........

How many times have we known of a dog that never was bred, but was all that ??? Many owners of good dogs just aren't interested in breeding, so, of course to me, it is a waste, but I look at things like a FORMER breeder.

Where was I ???? LOL I am not so absolutely sure that I am right about stick hits, but I do think that people absolutely are willing to subject their dog to much more than they are willing to do to themselves. If and when I find someone that is actually pointed at a goal beside money in the breeding game, then "I" believe we will see that I am right about stick hits.

Kadi, what type of dog looked really good in one sport, but was so much shit, that he couldn't cross to whatever ???? I have seen SHIT in Mondio, Sch, FR, so it's not like anyone is immune.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Jeff for the public thing. 2 clubs in SoCal train on public parks. one right across from a dog park, the other in little league park. The public is watching

You must be in the ****ing coast guard. This is SUPPOSED to be a free country. I paid for those stupid parks as well as they did. Why does an IMAGINARY PUBLIC OPINION, WHICH HAS NEVER BEEN PROVEN TO EXSIST, cause so much imaginary trouble ?????

They are not watching, and I am sick of followers jamming the idea that they are down peoples throats. I train in public parks and no one is watching. The VERY FEW that do, come and ask about training their dog to be so obediant, and they are allowed to cdome and do OB.

That has happened 3 times in a couple decades. Where are all these people James ?????? No wonder your in Sch. LOL


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

QUOTE: And when I saw a whip come out. My imagination ran wild with that was about. 

Your a POG aren't you. THis is making sense now. Only administrators think like this.

You are alone in this James. I just don't see the MASSES at dog training watching. Especially in Detroit, and NEVER at a little league game.

I believe that pEtA is the boogey man. I am not joking either. They are coming to get us, and we are still in bed defense less in our undies.

We need to get the flashlight, and go looking for them.


----------



## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Please don't patronize me, I don't like it, and I am doing my level best to remain my normal charming self. Anyway, I already said what I would like to see. UScA should roll the rules back to 1980. Take the hard line and stand up for what you know to be right - go back to making this about the working dogs. Open the Nationals back up to all breeds - How ****ing stupid to close it off to only GSDs. I am a GSD person and I know full well Malinois will wipe the floor with GSDs if Nationals are opened back up - for a while, until working line breeders decide to seriously put the stuffing back in the GSD. (Of course this brings up another topic: Has the working line GSD deteriorated, or has it never been able to work at that level, or have trials changed to prefer a style of working different from the GSD?) Let the show line folk in the Untied States have GSDCA-WDA, they (show line types) are NEVER going to seriously breed working show lines in any great numbers, they just don't really care, so give them their own organization and give us back ours.

Of course this brings up another topic, but I don't know if this hasn't been done to death: Has the working line GSD deteriorated OR has it never been able to successfully compete with certain breeds OR is there another reason?


----------



## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> Please don't patronize me, I don't like it, and I am doing my level best to remain my normal charming self. Anyway, I already said what I would like to see. UScA should roll the rules back to 1980. Take the hard line and stand up for what you know to be right - go back to making this about the working dogs. Open the Nationals back up to all breeds - How ****ing stupid to close it off to only GSDs. I am a GSD person and I know full well Malinois will wipe the floor with GSDs if Nationals are opened back up - for a while, until working line breeders decide to seriously put the stuffing back in the GSD. (Of course this brings up another topic: Has the working line GSD deteriorated, or has it never been able to work at that level, or have trials changed to prefer a style of working different from the GSD?) Let the show line folk in the Untied States have GSDCA-WDA, they (show line types) are NEVER going to seriously breed working show lines in any great numbers, they just don't really care, so give them their own organization and give us back ours.
> 
> Of course this brings up another topic, but I don't know if this hasn't been done to death: Has the working line GSD deteriorated OR has it never been able to successfully compete with certain breeds OR is there another reason?


Sorry, I did not mean to repeat myself. I wanted to take that sentence out of the 1st paragraph, but forgot to delete it, and when I went back and tried to edit, too much time had elapsed.


----------



## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Actually, between AWDF and the SV2000, there might still be hope for the sport. Only time will tell.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

QUOTE: Of course this brings up another topic, but I don't know if this hasn't been done to death: Has the working line GSD deteriorated OR has it never been able to successfully compete with certain breeds OR is there another reason?

They have, but lets look at the people that want working dogs today. WTF would 94% of the people out there do with a stronger dog ??

How many times have we heard the story of so and so who got a dog from that one guy, and the dog wasn't even close to what was originally asked for....but they are keeping it anyway.

Until people start sending the trash back to the breeders producing it, this is not going to happen.

There are breeders doing good business producing little better than pet dogs with working dog looks. Everyone has a stud with "extreme working dog drive" BLA BLA BLA.

We have to fix the new people first. All puppies are cute, but are they worth the years of frustration because they cannot do the work ????


----------



## Jack Martin (Feb 12, 2008)

Now that is the Gospel. Nothing like watching mediocre(sp) day after day.It is like pulling teeth at training.But like you said_"They have, but lets look at the people that want working dogs today._" 94% can't handle what they dream about. That being said, that is not a reason to breed so so dogs.


----------



## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Jeff for the public thing. 2 clubs in SoCal train on public parks. one right across from a dog park, the other in little league park. The public is watching
> 
> You must be in the ****ing coast guard. This is SUPPOSED to be a free country. I paid for those stupid parks as well as they did. Why does an IMAGINARY PUBLIC OPINION, WHICH HAS NEVER BEEN PROVEN TO EXSIST, cause so much imaginary trouble ?????
> 
> ...


Hi, Jeff

I'm in the club that trains next to a dog park. The city owns the dog park as well as the training field we use, but is run by the local obedience club. I used to be a board member of that obedience club. The board does get letters of complaint from the public regarding the Schutzhund club. Also, during SchH training, people from the dog park do come over on occasion or yell nasty things about the training. 

From this experience, I can tell you the majority of the complaints is about the stick hits. As a matter of fact, my sister, who lives in a nice residential community, ran into some absolute idiots doing Schutzhund at the local unofficial dog park. It's just a nice open area where residents walk their dogs. Seriously, my sister had to talk someone out of calling 911. She knew what it was, but had never seen SchH in person and she told me from an outsider's perspective, it looked horrible. And she said the people were trashy, which didn't help! Don't get me wrong, I've been a ghetto trainer and will be again, but there's a time and place for everything and an affluent neighborhood dog park is NOT the place to be doing bitework.

If anyone from the dog park happens to stop by and ask about training, we take it as an opportunity to educate. Fortunately for us, the obedience club has a form letter they send to any complainers that hopefully educates a little about dog sport.

Maybe the climate is a little different here in So Cal. Personally, I'd like to not water down the sport any more. I'm only responding with these examples because you seem to question the idea that the public is watching. They are.

Laura


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Laura, I am sure there are some neighborhoods in Chula Vista that you could train in, unless it has changed from when I was there about 20 years ago. LOL

Jack, if the market is there, people will fill it with their crap dogs. I see NO reason to produce mediocre, but there are more of them than there are of us that want a dog to do a job and to do it well.

There are also a lot of people that will breed the mediocre, just to make enough money to get the dog that they want, and then they realize that they can sell this shit, and get a grand a pup.

I have no problems with breeders, but I do have problems with people that get a dog that won't work and subject helpers and decoys to the torture of working the dog, even after they have been told the dog isn't going to work out.

On top of that, the dogs OB is usually shit, as it gets worse in the bitework when control is put on it.

What a joy. NOW you see why I blame Sch. LOL


----------



## Jack Martin (Feb 12, 2008)

You blame Sch now.It could be your sport next. But for God sakes Jeff, stop being like my wife and blaming the things I like.LOL


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Ha HA, thats a good one. All my friends are non dog people. They don't get the whole thing, but like my dogs. Imagine that, friends that don't like dogs that much. : )


----------



## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Kadi. How long were the dogs in the disciplines they were in before you got them, and subject them to another sport ???


These weren't dogs I owned, the belong to other people. Some were dogs I was testing for possible breeding, some were dogs I saw at trials, some were dogs I saw trial in one venue then heard about or saw video of trails in other venues, and some are just dogs whose owners I have spoken to. 



> Kadi, what type of dog looked really good in one sport, but was so much shit, that he couldn't cross to whatever ???? I have seen SHIT in Mondio, Sch, FR, so it's not like anyone is immune.


I didn't say they looked really good, I said they titled to the III level. They looked decent, but these aren't powerhouse dogs I'm talking about. If they were really good dogs, they shouldn't have had a problem switching to another sport. Not that the ability to switch between sports means a dog is an exceptional dog. Anyway, they didn't succeed in one sport because it tested them differently then the sport they did succeed in. And in probably 1/2 of these cases, the sport they didn't succeed in was the one they were originally raised/trained for, the sport they did succeed in was the owners "second choice" after the issues in the first sport became obvious. 

Like I have said before, IMO a good dog is a good dog, and the sport it is in is because of the owners choice. But some dogs are more suited for one sport then another, because of the differences in how they test them, and success in one doesn't always mean there will be success in another.


----------



## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> Please don't patronize me, I don't like it, and I am doing my level best to remain my normal charming self. Anyway, I already said what I would like to see. UScA should roll the rules back to 1980. Take the hard line and stand up for what you know to be right - go back to making this about the working dogs. Open the Nationals back up to all breeds - How ****ing stupid to close it off to only GSDs. I am a GSD person and I know full well Malinois will wipe the floor with GSDs if Nationals are opened back up - for a while, until working line breeders decide to seriously put the stuffing back in the GSD. (Of course this brings up another topic: Has the working line GSD deteriorated, or has it never been able to work at that level, or have trials changed to prefer a style of working different from the GSD?) Let the show line folk in the Untied States have GSDCA-WDA, they (show line types) are NEVER going to seriously breed working show lines in any great numbers, they just don't really care, so give them their own organization and give us back ours.
> 
> Of course this brings up another topic, but I don't know if this hasn't been done to death: Has the working line GSD deteriorated OR has it never been able to successfully compete with certain breeds OR is there another reason?


 
I am sorry you fell patronized. Honestly that was not my intent. I am just trying to keep my mind open to ideas from others. 

One thing that will surely keep a person in everlasting ingnorance is contempt prior to investigation. So, with that in mind. I tried to take some my own advice and try to see it from your view. 

I did read what you'd like to see. But I must have missed the part about what your going to do about it. I am interested in what can be done to bring back the old SchH. 

Because I am not in the hope Buisness.


----------



## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

And Jeff, you do not have to worry about stick hits in a public park....Your sport does not have any.


----------



## Jason Sidener (Nov 8, 2006)

Someone needs to go through all 10 pages of this thread and make a list of all of the changes to Schutzhund that have been recommended.


----------



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Jason Sidener said:


> Someone needs to go through all 10 pages of this thread and make a list of all of the changes to Schutzhund that have been recommended.


Jason go for it...I'm waiting!  
Thanks for the service...


----------



## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Has anyone read the confrence call minutes from the latest AWDF meeting?

Jeff and Susan, it's a good read. just some stuff about the stick being banned/ and or threatend to be banned in certain European countries. Even a crazy muzzle law in Luxemburg.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: And Jeff, you do not have to worry about stick hits in a public park....Your sport does not have any.

So does that mean we don't do them ???? LOL


----------



## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Yes I have read them (from 9/22). Switzerland is looking to add back the soft stick, as Italy did when faced with the same problem. Luxembourg requires all dogs to be muzzled unless they have a BH. And?


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

We've been asked not to join in forum discussions, mouth about it etc. in order not to endanger negotiations.

The trials that have taken place were without stick "hits" (according to the rules, the dog is not to be injured) and I was told there are ways to compensate this..... which I can quite believe. I've never seen a good dog (or for that matter any dog) out the bite when hit with the stick. The problem is more beforehand when the dog is "threatened" before the bite.

Wish us luck - what they take away from us today will be just the start..............


----------



## Mario Fernandez (Jun 21, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> Please don't patronize me, I don't like it, and I am doing my level best to remain my normal charming self. Anyway, I already said what I would like to see. UScA should roll the rules back to 1980. Take the hard line and stand up for what you know to be right - go back to making this about the working dogs. Open the Nationals back up to all breeds - How ****ing stupid to close it off to only GSDs. I am a GSD person and I know full well Malinois will wipe the floor with GSDs if Nationals are opened back up - for a while, until working line breeders decide to seriously put the stuffing back in the GSD. (Of course this brings up another topic: Has the working line GSD deteriorated, or has it never been able to work at that level, or have trials changed to prefer a style of working different from the GSD?) Let the show line folk in the Untied States have GSDCA-WDA, they (show line types) are NEVER going to seriously breed working show lines in any great numbers, they just don't really care, so give them their own organization and give us back ours.
> 
> Of course this brings up another topic, but I don't know if this hasn't been done to death: Has the working line GSD deteriorated OR has it never been able to successfully compete with certain breeds OR is there another reason?


I agree with a lot of people about the changes. I am going off topic and I am sorry but I have read on several boards why they thought the USCA closed thier nationals... Susan do you really believe that USCA closed the Nationals because a few mals won the Nationals?

Regards

Mario


----------



## David Scholes (Jul 12, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> ...
> Wish us luck - what they take away from us today will be just the start..............


Good Luck. But luck has nothing to do with it. I really believe their goal is to end the protection sports. Before long we'll just have a bark and hold with no bite.

I view it the same as the martial arts. Many cultures have had real warfare martial arts but as government gets more powerful, eventually they get toned down until they are just a pretty sport and ultimately nothing more than an entertaining dance. And the practitioners still fool themselves into believing they have something real.

As long as people are willing to keep their mouth shut and allow negotiations they'll keep taking more bit by bit.


----------



## Jack Martin (Feb 12, 2008)

What's the difference if UScA closed it.They have Nationals for other breeds as well. The AWDF has a National for all breeds.As long as there is one National for all breeds that is really all you need.


----------



## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

If you say so. Whatever, have a nice day.


----------



## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> Yes I have read them (from 9/22). Switzerland is looking to add back the soft stick, as Italy did when faced with the same problem. Luxembourg requires all dogs to be muzzled unless they have a BH. And?


I do not know seemed pertinent to the argument.

I guess my point is, that so many sit and complain. Massage each others hearts about how these people and those people are the problem for rolling over or somehow allowing it to happen. But yet the people have no idea how complicated the problem is. It's more than getting show dogs to pass for money. It involves multiple goverments, multiple working dog clubs, This is not the first threat to the sport. The names was changed from Schutzhund to Vielseitigkeits Pruefung fuer Gebrauchshunde to make the sport sound less brutual. Because the literal translation is not only protection dog, but in German would be the equivlent to attack dog. Nor do the people whom critize have any type of solution. Really what they want to do, is be negative, blame the rest of the world. Get together with there like minded folks and tell each others the worlds problems. It's stagnate and it does no one any good.


----------



## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

James Downey said:


> I do not know seemed pertinent to the argument.
> 
> I guess my point is, that so many sit and complain. Massage each others hearts about how these people and those people are the problem for rolling over or somehow allowing it to happen. But yet the people have no idea how complicated the problem is. It's more than getting show dogs to pass for money. It involves multiple goverments, multiple working dog clubs, This is not the first threat to the sport. The names was changed from Schutzhund to Vielseitigkeits Pruefung fuer Gebrauchshunde to make the sport sound less brutual. Because the literal translation is not only protection dog, but in German would be the equivlent to attack dog. Nor do the people whom critize have any type of solution. Really what they want to do, is be negative, blame the rest of the world. Get together with there like minded folks and tell each others the worlds problems. It's stagnate and it does no one any good.


If you say so, have a nice day! I was going to say more, but really, why should I bother? The question was asked and answered, many times.


----------



## David Scholes (Jul 12, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> If you say so, have a nice day! I was going to say more, but really, why should I bother? The question was asked and answered, many times.


Yup. We've all turned into sheeple.


----------



## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Speaking of the SV 2000, does anyone know what happened to Raiser's website?


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

It's now *R*SV 2000: 

http://www.rsv2000.de/


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> It's now *R*SV 2000:
> 
> http://www.rsv2000.de/


I may just drink the kool aid when offered


----------



## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Thank you Gillian!


----------



## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

David Scholes said:


> Yup. We've all turned into sheeple.


That was my exact thought on the subject. They will keep taking until we quit laying down for it. Everything has gotten too PC crazy. Yes there is violence in the world, always has been always will be, sticking your head in the sand doesn't make the fairytail true. Baaaahhh. [-X


----------



## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I agree. The question originally posed was "If you could change the sport, what would you change?" 
I rarely ever respond to this sort of post, I keep my mouth shut and my opinions on this subject to myself, expressly because of people who for whatever reason, get defensive, as if this is a personal attack on them! ](*,) 

but you know what? That's their problem, not mine. To the Original Poster: Thanks for this topic, it felt great getting a few things off my chest.


----------



## David Scholes (Jul 12, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> I agree. The question originally posed was "If you could change the sport, what would you change?"
> I rarely ever respond to this sort of post, I keep my mouth shut and my opinions on this subject to myself, expressly because of people who for whatever reason, get defensive, as if this is a personal attack on them! ](*,)
> 
> but you know what? That's their problem, not mine. To the Original Poster: Thanks for this topic, it felt great getting a few things off my chest.


Glad we all feel better but without action it's all a waste of time. At least a few persons who are active in the sport and can agree on changes need to petition the governing bodies they belong to firmly asking for the changes and demand that they stand up and get their membership involved in standing up against any further legislative onslaughts. Draw a line in the sand.


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

It's not easy to start up the action but someone did and I did my share of collecting signatures to stop the stick being banned. It was often demoralising. I got signatures from some who didn't do any dog sports but after explaining why we wanted to keep it, and knowing me, they signed. Others who did Begleithund, Agility and other non-biting dog sports were either vehemently against Schutzhund or said they couldn't care less as they were doing Agility, etc. Just wait until they get the slalom or whatever banned:-({|= Then I can say "I couldn't care less". Won't happen of course but makes me sad to know that even dog sports as a whole can't bring about any loyalty.

Now negotiations are taking place at a higher level and we've been asked to take a back seat for a while - so it's not always a case of sticking one's head in the sand. The way I feel at the moment I'd like to stick someone else's head in the sand and stand on it:lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## David Scholes (Jul 12, 2008)

The general attitude of society keeps moving the wrong direction. I would love to see the day when a politician would stand up to the prevailing mindset and NOT spare the Thanksgiving turkey.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

We were all told as children in church that the meek shall inherit the earth.

No one explained that it was going to be a bad thing.


----------



## David Scholes (Jul 12, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> We were all told as children in church that the meek shall inherit the earth.
> 
> No one explained that it was going to be a bad thing.


LOL. I'll now remember that every time I hear reference to that scripture. Probably get a lot of strange looks in church when I break out in hysterical laughter... :lol:


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

What! you even go to listen to it :-o :-o :-o


----------



## David Scholes (Jul 12, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> What! you even go to listen to it :-o :-o :-o


Yes Gillian, There are still some major sections of the US where we still cling to our religion and guns. And since we believe our rights come from a higher source than our government we are much more likely to be able to continue training our dogs the way we want. Godless dependence on government gives me the :-o:-o:-o because then there is no limit on the rules they can make, not just against our dog sports but against our right to life and liberty. What's really scary is that those traditions and beliefs are still being passed on to the next generation! LOL.


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> We were all told as children in church that the meek shall inherit the earth.
> 
> No one explained that it was going to be a bad thing.



:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

David Scholes said:


> Yes Gillian, There are still some major sections of the US where we still cling to our religion and guns. And since we believe our rights come from a higher source than our government we are much more likely to be able to continue training our dogs the way we want. Godless dependence on government gives me the :-o:-o:-o because then there is no limit on the rules they can make, not just against our dog sports but against our right to life and liberty. What's really scary is that those traditions and beliefs are still being passed on to the next generation! LOL.


I'm sure you'd love life in Switzerland then (irony mode on) - I got a real shock when I first came to live here. It's such a small country and people nearly live on top of one another so the wish for distance "mentally" is very much at hand. On the other hand they are a very genuine folk. If you're invited for a meal it's "booked" in advance and woe betide if you come late but there are no loose invitations to pop round sometime when you're in the area - this would offend the average housewife.

As for dogs - so many have never owned one as the majority live in flats and cleanliness here is above Godliness for most. It's much easier to win a cautious folk over by promising more and more restrictions for dog owners. 2009/2010 there will be a compulsory test for "new dog" owners, however long they've owned dogs.

I can't count the times we've formed groups to fight this or that or to vote someone into a committee (only to have them "mobbed" out of it). There's now so much forbidden, not only in Schutzhund, but it all needs controlling and it's not possible so life goes on more or less the same sometimes:-$

In retrospect, I'd say we need to do so much more than change Schutzhund - here at least.


----------



## David Scholes (Jul 12, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I'm sure you'd love life in Switzerland then (irony mode on) - I got a real shock when I first came to live here. It's such a small country and people nearly live on top of one another so the wish for distance "mentally" is very much at hand. On the other hand they are a very genuine folk. If you're invited for a meal it's "booked" in advance and woe betide if you come late but there are no loose invitations to pop round sometime when you're in the area - this would offend the average housewife.
> 
> As for dogs - so many have never owned one as the majority live in flats and cleanliness here is above Godliness for most. It's much easier to win a cautious folk over by promising more and more restrictions for dog owners. 2009/2010 there will be a compulsory test for "new dog" owners, however long they've owned dogs.
> 
> ...


Interesting. Some of it sounds cultural but also space. Most people here, even in the larger cities own dogs, but generally the level of training is nil and attitudes are varied. We tend to have the problem of people moving to an area wanting "space" then they want to start imposing more rules like they had where they came from. 

In my office we put up a dream board for motivational purposes. My pictures include a dutchie being caught by a decoy. The reactions by most people when they see it are surprise because they didn't know such a sport or hobby existed.


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

_We tend to have the problem of people moving to an area wanting "space" then they want to start imposing more rules like they had where they came from._

This must be global - the tendency here is also is to leave the town and find a space in a green area and then the trouble starts: cow bells, Indian Runner ducks sqawking, cockrels crowing, dogs barking, our "deer" neigbours braying, in fact country life at its best. I'm thinking of going back to the town:idea:


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Originally Posted by David Scholes 
Yes Gillian, There are still some major sections of the US where we still cling to our religion and guns. And since we believe our rights come from a higher source than our government we are much more likely to be able to continue training our dogs the way we want. Godless dependence on government gives me the because then there is no limit on the rules they can make, not just against our dog sports but against our right to life and liberty. What's really scary is that those traditions and beliefs are still being passed on to the next generation! LOL.


I see this stuff happening here. It will take time, but since we as dog people are always on the defensive, and months behind the program, it is just a matter of time before what we do is outlawed.

Our government has been eroding away at our rights for some time now. Ever hear that "driving is a priviledge"???? How the **** is that possible in a free country.

Every time I get a ticket, the judge makes it out as if I am swerving through a school zone, as opposed to being a few miles an hour over in the dead of the night.

I see cops at my work sitting around the parking lot running peoples liscense plates.

Lose your ID and then try and get new ID. I am going through that right now.

They are slowly tightening down the screws on our freedoms.


----------



## David Scholes (Jul 12, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote:
> I see this stuff happening here. It will take time, but since we as dog people are always on the defensive, and months behind the program, it is just a matter of time before what we do is outlawed.
> 
> Our government has been eroding away at our rights for some time now. Ever hear that "driving is a priviledge"???? How the **** is that possible in a free country.
> ...


It is changing. The next few years could get interesting. Unfortunately the schools don't teach history the way they used to and socialism keeps creeping in... no more personal responsibility. There are reasons why about 150 years ago my ancestors left their home countries. Now we want to be like everyone else and then there will be no place left to go. I have an old T-Shirt that says, "US CONSTITUTION: Void where prohibited by law". Things are coming to a head where we can stop pretending to have one.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

That is why when I write ****, the ****heads censor it, I get ****ing pissed. Who the **** are they to tell me what the **** to write??? It is not like I am ****ing saying **** you, or your a ****er, which of course is so horrible and causes whoever you say that to irreprable harm. I am just using an acronym.

Do people forget that our forefathers DIED for this right ?????

You should see how well it works when they try and tell me to my face not to curse.


----------



## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Tha I am just using an acronym.


Oh, good lord it sucks to be me.

Do you know because of your post I actually found myself Googling the F word? (don't like the asterisks). Didn't realize it was supposedly an acronym.

I seriously need to get a life.

Laura


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

For unlawful carnal knowledge. Hope that helps the stupidly offended. Yep, that is the meaning for all you freaks out there who throw shit fits over a word. 

Not the intention, but just the WORD. Luckily, most people are tards.


----------



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Who would EVER think this thread would be *so diverse and expandable*, from changing Schutzhund to bikers thongs/Spandex? :-k Crack crawlers................

Now for more pressing information...Why isn't Ring as popular? :razz:


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Who would EVER think this thread would be *so diverse and expandable*, from changing Schutzhund to bikers thongs/Spandex? :-k Crack crawlers................
> 
> Now for more pressing information...Why isn't Ring as popular? :razz:


And Schutzhund is? My guess would be it is due to the popularity of the GSD in America and the requirements in the mother land for breeding the animal. Sound simple enough?
I bet it wont be:mrgreen:


----------



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

But there has to be some aspect/s of the sport that draws so many people to it and its staying power from the time of its creation. Why aren't there that many Ring clubs or why haven't the FR/MR folks done more to push it well beyond Schutzhund. I know the GSD has lots to do with it, and maybe it's like the difference in karate and judo. Still an interesting idea and topic for us to chew on and change the gears from this topic...


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

I think from the sport/competition point of view because of the structure in Schutzhund it is easier to compare each team and understand what is going on. (I should educate my self more on ring I don't know shit about it)
Also less exercises to polish Lisa M mentioned in another thread the amount of time on the field and number of exercises in there routine make it difficult to put allot of flash on there routines and work keeping the focus on corect work. "Maybe more meat and potatoes"
And simply Schutzhund has been around in the states longer. I think the popularity of the ring sports has multiplied by 500% in the last 10 years. That may be due to the growing popularity of the Mal.
I think Ivan competing succusfully with Mals in Schutzhund has shed lite on the breed hence people discovering other breed specific venues for the Mal like ring sports. The Mals are easy to train "not me" and were cheep to buy. JMO and some babble.


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I think one interesting aspect about Schutzhund is that it includes tracking making it more an allround sport than Ring but if I had my time over again I'd like to try my hand at Ring, too.

I liked our national schutzhund - guarding an object, tracking, searching a square, obedience, schutzdienst but this has changed over the years and the object guarding is out. In Schutzhund 1, the dog is no longer threatened whilst walking with his owner through the wood to test his reactions and has been replaced by a bite exercise on the sleeve.


----------



## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

In IPO/SCH you can compete against many other countries, so I guess that´s is a motivator for many, most other sports are only done in specific countries. The fact that IPO have relatively few routines compared to many others, and also is suited for many different breeds is probably another factor.


----------



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Gillian the interesting part of Schutzhund is the tracking. You MUST* trust* your dog and for that reason many feel it just ain't happening! It's kind of like watching the game of golf...if it is a game. Folks in short pants, chasing a ball, washing it, and then getting sh%t faced in a clubhouse... Yeah, I'll be happy getting bit by wild dogs. If you really want to chase a ball...play soccer! 8-[


----------



## Jason Sidener (Nov 8, 2006)

I fail to see what trust has to do with training foot step to foot step schutzhund style tracking.


----------



## David Scholes (Jul 12, 2008)

Jason Sidener said:


> I fail to see what trust has to do with training foot step to foot step schutzhund style tracking.


The trust issue is... Is the dog really following the track? Easy to tell ONLY IF you can see the foot steps on the ground. Then again what if there are old tracks criss crossing.


----------



## Jason Sidener (Nov 8, 2006)

David Scholes said:


> The trust issue is... Is the dog really following the track? Easy to tell ONLY IF you can see the foot steps on the ground.


In Schutzhund style tracking a very good trainer will always know exactly where that track is and doesn't trust the dog to tell him. 

I have trained with guys that are good enough to know exactly where the track is and you could not see any footsteps.

I could see where trust comes in during a trial but not during training. At least for a majoity of the top competitors


----------



## David Scholes (Jul 12, 2008)

Jason Sidener said:


> In Schutzhund style tracking a very good trainer will always know exactly where that track is and doesn't trust the dog to tell him.
> 
> I have trained with guys that are good enough to know exactly where the track is and you could not see any footsteps.
> 
> I could see where trust comes in during a trial but not during training. At least for a majoity of the top competitors


I agree. In MOST all training situations you will know where the track is. You'd think you'd want to really test it now and then outside of trial.


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Jason Sidener said:


> In Schutzhund style tracking a very good trainer will always know exactly where that track is and doesn't trust the dog to tell him.
> 
> I have trained with guys that are good enough to know exactly where the track is and you could not see any footsteps.
> 
> I could see where trust comes in during a trial but not during training. At least for a majoity of the top competitors


I always know where my track is and I never let any one lay my track except trial day. 
I study the dog working whether he is on or off the track. Some times I help or wait to help I let him learn I help him learn. Some times I trick him.
The trouble we have tracking is me Since I know where every thing is and what coming and ware I have had it pointed out to be several times by tracking partners that I am handling/helping the dog with the line. So I have to be very mindful of my handling and line work that I'm not helping the dog. 
So I like to have someone with keeping a sharp eye on me and my handling and my dog.
I like it its fun


----------



## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

David Scholes said:


> The trust issue is... Is the dog really following the track? Easy to tell ONLY IF you can see the foot steps on the ground. Then again what if there are old tracks criss crossing.


When we are gearing up for trial (s) I go out to big dirt fields and lay my track. The next day I go to the same spot and lay another track that will cross over many times the track laid the day before. If my dog is truly tracking and not eye-balling the track he will follow the newer laid scent, not follow his eyes. 

There have been times for me (and probably most SchH trainers) that I have lost the track I laid at some point. What always makes me smile is when my dog "fights" me when I've lost the track and he is insistent. He's always been spot on \\/ Trust indeed.


----------



## Jason Sidener (Nov 8, 2006)

Candy Eggert said:


> There have been times for me (and probably most SchH trainers) that I have lost the track I laid at some point. What always makes me smile is when my dog "fights" me when I've lost the track and he is insistent. He's always been spot on \\/ Trust indeed.


Most of the very highly talanted trainers would tell you to work on not loosing the track. Most would not recommend trusting your dog more.


----------



## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Jason Sidener said:


> Most of the very highly talanted trainers would tell you to work on not loosing the track. Most would not recommend trusting your dog more.


Um, okay.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

FST isn't at the top of my joy list but, IMHO, you absolutely must know where the track is in training. Then you proof with the tracklayer at you side when your doing a track you don't know. 


Mike S
Do you still work articles on a strangers track? I've seen a ton of dogs that don't recognize a "different" article if it hasn't been worked on them.
One of Thunder's problem on his SCH I training was learning to ignore ANYTHING on the track with human scent other then mine. That was another carry over from his SAR article work.
Then I had to try and retrain him on other's articles for the II and III.


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> FST isn't at the top of my joy list but, IMHO, you absolutely must know where the track is in training. Then you proof with the tracklayer at you side when your doing a track you don't know.
> 
> 
> Mike S
> ...


When I track with others we always swap articles.


----------



## Jason Sidener (Nov 8, 2006)

Candy Eggert said:


> Um, okay.


Are you agreeing or being sarcastic?


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Jason Sidener said:


> Most of the very highly talanted trainers would tell you to work on not loosing the track.


I would agree


Jason Sidener said:


> Most would not recommend trusting your dog more.


That crazy talk


----------



## Jason Sidener (Nov 8, 2006)

Either you trust the dog to know where it is or you make sure you know where it is. I do not see how you can have it both ways


----------



## David Scholes (Jul 12, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> FST isn't at the top of my joy list but, IMHO, you absolutely must know where the track is in training. Then you proof with the tracklayer at you side when your doing a track you don't know.
> ...


I agree. I just feel like I have to have the proof with another track layer at some point besides trial but then again, I guess I should just admit to myself FST is not real. I kinda liked the FST training but it just never set right with me.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Mike, do you put other tracklayers articles on the track that you lay? Do you avoid contamination with your own scent? 

I'm a firm believer in trusting the dog but that has to be earned by consistantly being correct. Allowing mistakes because you "trust the dog" can creat more problems. 
I think "knowing how to read your dog" would be better suited to training then "trusting" until the dog is reall solid.


----------



## Jason Sidener (Nov 8, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> I'm a firm believer in trusting the dog but that has to be earned by consistantly being correct. Allowing mistakes because you "trust the dog" can creat more problems.


If you go out on a track not knowing where it is and trust the dog to track correctly how do you know if he made a mistake?

I am not talking about the big mistakes where it is easy to tell through body language. I talking about the small mistakes like when the dog is in the fringe sent and not right on the track


----------



## David Scholes (Jul 12, 2008)

Jason Sidener said:


> If you go out on a track not knowing where it is and trust the dog to track correctly how do you know if he made a mistake?
> 
> I am not talking about the big mistakes where it is easy to tell through body language. I talking about the small mistakes like when the dog is in the fringe sent and not right on the track


Okay. You've convinced me. FST sucks. Trust needs to be built for real tracking. I feel like I've just become a disciple of Jeff O :-o .


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Understod but it's still to easy to let the dog fringe scent if your doing FST. REal world is fine. Sport will loose points. 
Fringe scenting is yet another thing I had to wean my dog off of. With his SAR training he could be off a field length if I knew whe was still working scent. It didn't matter in the real stuff. 
Fringe scenting can also look just as correct as being right on top of the track. That's another reason to know exactly where the track is. If you allow it, it will bcome an easy habit to pick up. I know! :lol:


----------



## Jason Sidener (Nov 8, 2006)

I give up on this thread.


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Mike, do you put other tracklayers articles on the track that you lay? Do you avoid contamination with your own scent?
> 
> I'm a firm believer in trusting the dog but that has to be earned by consistantly being correct. Allowing mistakes because you "trust the dog" can creat more problems.
> I think "knowing how to read your dog" would be better suited to training then "trusting" until the dog is reall solid.


This starting to get confusing Jason and Bob when training I always mark my track so I don't lose it. So I can watch, study/understand, and teach my dog to track Schutzhund. Once he seems to have it I will start to pull the markers I still know which way the turns are I may not know exactly where they are I let the dog show me. Now if I did my homework rite I should be able to watch my dog and he will tell me if he is lost long before we leave the track or go past the corner.
Some times I set up traps/step offs or cut back corners to make him lose it and find it build his confidence and problem solve again I know where these traps are and I watch/study him.
So hopefully on Trial day I shake hands and introduce ourselves and say Such I let out my line and follow and trust my dog to the end of the track and get 100
But in the event that he dose have some trouble he has the tools to solve the problems he encountered and I know how to read him and trust that he has indeed found the track and I follow him to the end and get 95
So yes you do need to learn to trust your dog.

Bob we swap articles but there is cross contamination I haven't encountered any troubles or my dog walking articles. 
I have done forced article's with him "Such/Platz" just to put some importance on them which also bleeds over on to making more discipline on the track its self.
He is on a mission to find them and no bullshit about it. I now use very little food on the track now but pay him heavily at the articles. The jack pot at the end stayes in my pocket till I release him he eats and we play hard.
So far so good!\\/


----------



## Jason Sidener (Nov 8, 2006)

Mike Scheiber said:


> But in the event that he dose have some trouble he has the tools to solve the problems he encountered and I know how to read him and trust that he has indeed found the track and I follow him to the end and get 95
> So yes you do need to learn to trust your dog.


That is not trusting your dog that is learning to read the dog and in a trial you have no other choice realy.


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Jason Sidener said:


> That is not trusting your dog that is learning to read the dog and in a trial you have no other choice realy.


Call it what you want I still goda follow him.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

One giveaway to knowing the layout of a trial track is how it's lined up with the next track. If you see two flags somewhat close together it's pretty obvious whick whay each will turn on the first corner. That's for the I and the II. The III should be able to figure at least the first turn. 
I don't think most judges want to go to far just to keep directions similar from track to track.
As most are laid out you will have either two right turns or two left turns in the I and the II.


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I want a dog that can get me to the end of the track without my help so I have to vary the tracks, vary the terrain and, give him enough tracks to work out in all kinds of weather and various ages. During this time I have to learn to read him. I've seen dogs come into difficulties and turn around waiting for the handler to help them. 

I had a trainer who used to walk with me, plus track layer, and I learned to read the dog and let him do the work. We used to walk behind every dog when we went tracking and the trainer gave a running commentary of the dog's work. 

Too many self-laid tracks can lead to unconsciously influencing of the dog. This was my biggest mistake. I also used to step up the difficulties too soon. The dog becomes confident with success and not frustration.

I know *how* it should be done - now I have to prove that I can do it on the day!!


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Too many self-laid tracks can lead to unconsciously influencing of the dog. This was my biggest mistake.


And is mine this is why I like to bring a sharp eye with to help watch me not to help my dog.


----------



## Donna Rednour (Feb 12, 2008)

I think the trust issues are: "Do you trust yourself on how well you can read your dog on the track? Do you trust your training that you have exposed your dog to as many variables that you can possibly create and read your dog in those situations? Do you trust your track laying to the point that you can look at the tracking field and figure out the way the track would be laid out and still not try to 'tell' your dog where you think the track is?" If not, go back to the drawing board on your training. Lay trial tracks for 10 SchH3's, become experienced not only on the line of the dog but as a trial track layer too. And I agree FST SUCKS!! But if that's the game you want to play, learn all you can about it.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

So the list of changes we would want to see in Sch are????

Go back to the reed stick.

Stop getting so carried away with the H&B

AND ? ? ? ?


----------



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> So the list of changes we would want to see in Sch are????
> 
> Go back to the reed stick.
> 
> ...


Of all the "changes" Jeff's one: "I would like to see the scorebook reflect the points that the handler lost." is the best. How can the handler get better if they don't have something that is meaningful to use? Points lost are VERY important. As a high school soccer coach, I wanted to know what the call was from the ref. Tell me so I can fix it; don't just hold an arm up and go "Free KicK!":evil:


----------



## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Of all the "changes" Jeff's one: "I would like to see the scorebook reflect the points that the handler lost." is the best. How can the handler get better if they don't have something that is meaningful to use? Points lost are VERY important.


Isn't this what the critique is supposed to be for, though? Of course, assuming that you respect the judge's opinion and he actually gives a crap. 

Laura


----------



## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> Isn't this what the critique is supposed to be for, though? Of course, assuming that you respect the judge's opinion and he actually gives a crap.
> 
> Laura


Yes, but then you have to either have someone video taping, writing it down for you, or you make your own notes aftewards from memory. With a scoresheet or written notations in a book, you can go back a month later to refresh your memory on a problem area. Or you can look at your performance over multiple trials and see patterns in where you are loosing points. I've also seen quite a few critiques where the judge glossed over stuff and just threw out a "the heeling could be better, today it was a low SG" or something like that. Course I guess that falls under "gives a crap" LOL

I'd love to see Sch, and every other sport I compete in LOL, have the pressure sensitive score sheets that we've used in FR, where the judge, the handler and ??? each get a copy after the trial.


----------



## Lisa Geller (Mar 29, 2007)

Kadi,

just take a picture of your scoresheet. I have done this in the past and had no complaints from judge or trial sec.
I'm certain your camera is nicer than mine and it puts your scoresheet right with your pictures.

lg


----------



## Lisa Geller (Mar 29, 2007)

I think the levels should escalate better.

I don't see much difference between a Sc1 and a sch3.


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Lisa Geller said:


> I think the levels should escalate better.
> 
> I don't see much difference between a Sc1 and a sch3.


Heh Lisa
SCH I & II are just stumbling blocks to get to III 
My Jett wasn't ready for 3 this past summer nether in the head or the level training I want him to be in. He will be 3 in the spring.
My plan next year is I II III and the Nationals
I will NEVER forget my first Schutzhund title on my shitter Rottweiler  man what rush 
I will also never forget the look on my TD Donna's face when she saw leaving the vendors table with a SCH II dumbbell ](*,)


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

We have score sheets and I keep the good with the bad. I can take it back to the club and ask some in my group (they know the dog best) what we can do. The commentary can be a bit superficial (time) so why not ask the judge at the end of the trial how he would rectify the weaker exercises if you are sure it wasn't just a one-off. I've known the good ones (these are the only ones worth asking) explain it to me and give me advice for improvement. A video is good for the handler but for someone who doesn't know the dog, not very revealing. I've even have some chaps come up to me and suggest help (for my dog of course).


----------



## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Lisa Geller said:


> Kadi,
> 
> just take a picture of your scoresheet. I have done this in the past and had no complaints from judge or trial sec.
> I'm certain your camera is nicer than mine and it puts your scoresheet right with your pictures.
> ...


Until this discussion, I had no idea Sch even had scoresheets LOL I just thought it was notes scribbled on something. In the future I'll ask about taking a photo of it, I've done that in AKC stuff a few times also.

Kadi


----------



## Connie Doan (Nov 14, 2007)

I don't have a problem with the rules for the most part. I would only change only one rule in the SchH trials. No more silent "Aus." The out and guard must be active and intimidating and show the substance of the dog.

But I would certainly change the lack of consistency in judging. There is one club in our area that gets most of the entries. Everyone knows that that is the club where you will get the highest scores. This should not be possible. I am not saying that a club trial should be judged as a National or WUSV, but it should not permit so may shit dogs scoring highly in a III. SchH trials should be and are designed to be a real test of a dog's strength AS WELL AS the *handler and dog team solidarity*. The judging needs to reflect this. I know that the WUSV is holding talks about consistency and criteria in trial judging. I believe this will change for the better soon.

I think that the quality of dog it is possible to acquire these days has improved considerably, although one has to know who is breeding these animals. It used to be that to do well in SchH a dog had to be just plain hard. Nowadays, the dog has to be yes, hard, resilient; but also, focussed, trainable, guideable, willing, happy in attitude, and incredibly intelligent in the canine sense. One has to actually be able to keep up with the dog! (Here I am having a little trouble.) The QUALITY OF THE DOG and the QUALITY AND INTELLIGENCE of the training and helper work has become and needs to be nowadays of such a high level to really give a polished performance. And that is what we are training for in SchH, performance, is it not?


----------



## Connie Doan (Nov 14, 2007)

I should qualify my remarks in that I meant: to score well in national and international trials, the quality of dog and level of training needs to be right up there. To score well at a club trial with an easy judge, well enough said.


----------



## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

todd pavlus said:


> The first schutzhund trial I went to was '08 WUSV. When my wife, who doesn't know much about protection sports, saw what schutzhund is all about, she says "this is all they do". So I had to do a little explaining:-s . I do schutzhund because that is what is close to me, not my first choice, but I enjoy it because I get to train with my dog, and have learned more about dogs in the last year than all my previous 20yrs of dog ownership. I think schutzhund is a good sport for beginning handlers.


Excuse me but I find this statement somewhat puzzling. Let me see if I can clarify this because maybe I am missing something. I don't mean to slam you but, I just don't get it:

You have been to one trial and just started in Schutzhund last year. You say you have learned more in one year than in the last 20. You say it would not be your first choice. You say it is a good sport for beginning handlers. 

If you have only been to one trial and it was the WUSV, how can you make much of a judgment about the sport, from seeing one trial from the stands at a major event? I have only been to maybe 30 (give or take 5) or so trials in the past 5 years that I have been in Schutzhund. These were all up close and personal and have never been to a large event but it seems to me that it would be difficult to really tell what is going on from that kind of distance, especially if it was a first trial. I am a bit confused at how you could be in the sport for a whole year and only go to one trial? Does your club not hold trials?

I have been in the sport for 5 years, which basically makes me still a beginner. Well maybe since I have taken a puppy to a sch3 title 4x under a few real judges and two trials were at a regional level, I am in the process of transitioning from a novice to a novice/intermediate. I know I am just scratching the surface in terms of learning about the sport of Schutzhund and being a handler. I believe I am in a club which provides top level instruction and direction in all phases. I feel I am just now starting to get a grasp on many of the concepts of training and handling. My training director says that he continues to find new ways to train dogs, and what he does now is very different than what he did 5 or 10 years ago. I just find the statement "it is good for beginning handlers" utterly amazing. What would you propose would be better for someone beyond a beginner? What would be your "1st choice"? What sport would be more challenging or suitable for someone who is not a beginner?

I am curious as to what kind of training situation you are training in? At one year of training I knew I was a complete ignoramus compared to the more experienced handlers at my club, never mind the TD. If you do not have the same view I think it is quite likely the training and direction you are receiving is not the greatest. I know at one year, and even today I am in complete awe of the knowledge and abilities of my TD and a few of the other people that have taken the sport seriously for more than 20 years. 

In terms of the topic. Well I have only been around 5 years. The only thing I have to rely on from the "good old days" are video's and personal accounts of people that were around then. Much of what I see on video kind of makes me scratch my head when I hear such nostalgic remarks. Much of what I see of the old tapes looks like shit. Now I understand that in some ways there were some hard, tough dogs but the training methods have advanced so far that perhaps with a proper foundation there is no need to hang dogs on a weekly basis? I don't know, I was not around then. I know I do see some dogs, a few of them at my club, which to me seem like you would not want anything more extreme. 

In terms of the handling ability the tapes I see of the old trials look pretty substandard. Last year at this time I spent a few weeks in Germany, attempting to breed my dog. All I did was go to dog clubs. I saw the training methods ran the gamut. Most of what I saw was probably passed down from father to son and looked probably much as it did 35 years ago. on the other hand there were a few (very few) handlers that were using more modern training methods. The difference was like night and day to me. The dogs handled by modern style trainers were enthusiastic, their performance was sharp. The old school trainers had dogs that looked lethargic, unwilling, bored, and flat. 

In terms of a few of the comments I can only go by my relatively limited experience and from what I have learned from my TD and others. On the other hand my TD is one of the most knowledgeable people about working dogs that I have ever encountered, so i try to be a sponge in terms of what I hear from him. He is also a Sch trial judge who is held in pretty high esteem, and a reputation for being a pretty tough. He says that he sees an extreme amount of information in the bark and hold. If he says it I believe it. So from that would say this has a high level of value. I also know his disdain for silent guarding. He shared the background on why it was initially allowed. It had practical reasons at the time. If I recall it had to do with service dogs from the DDR being in trials, where their practical work depended on silent guarding. He relates this is no longer the case and what he sees at this point is dogs with nothing behind them being given a free pass in this area. I vote for the silent guarding being penalized. 

In terms of stick hits I have seen a dog or two that could not handle a stick hit and it is a point of pressure that should be retained. On the other hand I know my dog clamps down harder on the sleeve when taking a stick hit. When we got our Sch1 title at a regional event, the Austrian SV judge commented on this as a good trait. Actually the hits were pretty nasty, you could hear them 50 feet away. So obviously it is a valuable exercise. Shitters often can't take it and are dq'd because of it. With good dogs either it makes no difference or it highlights some exceptional ability.


----------



## David Scholes (Jul 12, 2008)

Steve Burger said:


> Excuse me but I find this statement somewhat puzzling. Let me see if I can clarify this because maybe I am missing something. I don't mean to slam you but, I just don't get it:
> 
> You have been to one trial and just started in Schutzhund last year. You say you have learned more in one year than in the last 20. You say it would not be your first choice. You say it is a good sport for beginning handlers.
> 
> ...


Like your post. Shows how ego gets in the way of real learning either because that's the way we've always done it (often generational) or because we've seen it all, we know it all. 

The more you learn and progress in any field, the more you realize you don't know. Some would say in my case, it's alzheimers setting in :lol:.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

After 5 years, I would think that you would have figured out that skinny little plastic stick with padding and foam around it, should never ever be considered a "nasty" hit. LOL


----------



## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

Steve, clearly you did not understand my post. i was not mocking schutzhund at all, quite the opposite. I have mentioned in other threads that I live in an area where there are no clubs close by. I am not willing to drive 2-3 hrs. one way to train. That is why I have only been to one trial. Believe me I wish there was a good club nearby, they offer a wealth of knowledge. I have found a trainer that has titled his own dogs to sch lll, and is certified through Amstel training kennel which was run by Owen Tober from the Buffalo Sch club, who sadly passed away 4 years ago. Maybe he is not as good as your TD but it is what I got to work with. I think schutzhund is good for beginners because it is the most accessable dog sport in this country, and is easiest to learn about working dogs and the world of dog sports. Especially the obediance aspect of it. I never said I new alot about schutzhund, far from it. I think ring sports in general are more difficult for dog and handler, and also looks more fun. I'm sure if you swithced to a ring sport you would't have f***ing clue what you were doing. Maybe someone that has done both have some input, and quite frankly you sound like some of the egotistacal ######I talked to when I was at the WUSV.


----------



## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

todd pavlus said:


> Steve, clearly you did not understand my post. i was not mocking schutzhund at all, quite the opposite. I have mentioned in other threads that I live in an area where there are no clubs close by. I am not willing to drive 2-3 hrs. one way to train. That is why I have only been to one trial. Believe me I wish there was a good club nearby, they offer a wealth of knowledge. I have found a trainer that has titled his own dogs to sch lll, and is certified through Amstel training kennel which was run by Owen Tober from the Buffalo Sch club, who sadly passed away 4 years ago. Maybe he is not as good as your TD but it is what I got to work with. I think schutzhund is good for beginners because it is the most accessable dog sport in this country, and is easiest to learn about working dogs and the world of dog sports. Especially the obediance aspect of it. I never said I new alot about schutzhund, far from it. I think ring sports in general are more difficult for dog and handler, and also looks more fun. I'm sure if you swithced to a ring sport you would't have f***ing clue what you were doing. Maybe someone that has done both have some input, and quite frankly you sound like some of the egotistacal ######I talked to when I was at the WUSV.


Thank you for clarifying that. That is why I asked. That also makes it much more clear what you meant by the "beginner" quote. I misunderstood the gist of what you were implying. I agree that is it would be much more likely for a beginner to find good training in Sch just because of the higher prevalence of facilities than it would be in some of the other sports. It is also more likely to find higher quality of trainers within sch than in some other sports. For example at my small club alone there are probably 5 people that have been training for more than 20 years. It is unfortunate that you do not have a club close by. I am also sure I would not have a clue what I was doing to a large degree if I made a switch. On the other hand I am quite happy with what I am getting now. I also know I am in a very unique position to be able to train at an excellent club which though I have to cross a border to get to, is still only 25 minutes from my house. I am also grateful that it is a non-profit club with no professionals. Good luck to you.


----------



## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Actually, when the discussion does come from folk here at this message board who actually DO train in more than one sport, they usually will provide both the pros and the cons of all the sports they are in, I rarely hear them get into the tiresome "my sports better than your sport" back & forth stupid game. :-\"


----------



## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

susan tuck said:


> Actually, when the discussion does come from folk here at this message board who actually DO train in more than one sport, they usually will provide both the pros and the cons of all the sports they are in, I rarely hear them get into the tiresome "my sports better than your sport" back & forth stupid game. :-\"


You will certainly not find me putting down another sport. Whatever turns one's crank is ok with me. What I personally meant was that Schutzhund has been established in this country for a longer period of time and individual Sch clubs have existed longer than most other sport clubs. Therefore I would think you would be more likely to find more experienced personnel at these clubs than say a sport club that has only been in existence for a couple of years. 

My earlier post about show me a sport with more demands on the person beyond the beginner handler, implies that there is some pretty tough competition out there in Schutzhund. I don't know enough about other sports but just the sheer numbers of people in Sch as opposed to say KNVP would suggest it would be tough to get to the top in terms of competition. Not that one is easier or tougher than another. I would think that any venue could be tough to find real success in. Of course there are differing levels of success and it is all relative. In Schutzhund, one person may feel they are successful by putting a sch1on a dog at a club trial with an easy judge and conditions. Another person may be dissatisfied with placing second on the podium at a world championship.


----------



## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

I believe Lisa Maze has Titles from shutzhund, french and mondio ring, all to level three on the same dog. That is a talented handler. ;-)


----------



## R Janssen (Jul 25, 2008)

Steve Burger said:


> You will certainly not find me putting down another sport. Whatever turns one's crank is ok with me. What I personally meant was that Schutzhund has been established in this country for a longer period of time and individual Sch clubs have existed longer than most other sport clubs. Therefore I would think you would be more likely to find more experienced personnel at these clubs than say a sport club that has only been in existence for a couple of years.
> 
> My earlier post about show me a sport with more demands on the person beyond the beginner handler, implies that there is some pretty tough competition out there in Schutzhund. I don't know enough about other sports but just the sheer numbers of people in Sch as opposed to say KNVP would suggest it would be tough to get to the top in terms of competition. Not that one is easier or tougher than another. I would think that any venue could be tough to find real success in. Of course there are differing levels of success and it is all relative. In Schutzhund, one person may feel they are successful by putting a sch1on a dog at a club trial with an easy judge and conditions. Another person may be dissatisfied with placing second on the podium at a world championship.


Did i read it right? You are compering SchutzHund to KNPV.???


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

He is in terms of total number of people in the sport.

How many people are in KNPV ???

Or in Sch for that matter ??? (total)

I think MR here in states is just over a hundred members


----------



## R Janssen (Jul 25, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> He is in terms of total number of people in the sport.
> 
> How many people are in KNPV ???
> 
> ...


The KNPV has 5000+ members and 700+ Dogs get there Certification every year if my memory serves me right.
For SchutzHundi i don't know...


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

We might have 5000 in the states total doing some form of bitework. That is all the dogsports combined.


----------



## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

rene_limburg said:


> Did i read it right? You are compering SchutzHund to KNPV.???


No I was not comparing any sports. I was just comparing the amount of people that are involved in it and I have no idea how many are involved. I was merely referring to the fact since sports such as KNPV, FR, etc. are not that easy to find, it would be more likely that you would be able to find experienced trainers and clubs in Schutzhund. Hell, there are lot of people in the USA, that if they want to train in Sch have to drive 3 or 4 hours each way, never mind the other sports which are less common.


----------



## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> He is in terms of total number of people in the sport.
> 
> How many people are in KNPV ???
> 
> ...


Thank you. Did I actually say that? LOL.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

No, I torqued it a bit. Didn't want to type that much. : )

QUOTE: I don't know enough about other sports but just the sheer numbers of people in Sch as opposed to say KNVP would suggest it would be tough to get to the top in terms of competition. 

See ? Just a little torquing


----------



## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> No, I torqued it a bit. Didn't want to type that much. : )
> 
> QUOTE: I don't know enough about other sports but just the sheer numbers of people in Sch as opposed to say KNVP would suggest it would be tough to get to the top in terms of competition.
> 
> See ? Just a little torquing


 No not what I said in the original posting, I meant the thank you!


----------



## Ernie Hardman (Jun 9, 2009)

Howard Gaines III said:


> If you could change the sport of Schutzhund to make it better, what part or parts would you rework?


1) Bring back the attack on handler in Sch1
2) More randomness in the exercises
3) Better Judging, judges that can differentiate between a routine by a Rottie, Mal, GS, and other breeds. Example: No 2 breeds will do the same exercises with the same speed. So shouldn't be compared together in scoring.


----------

