# does the "crabbing" occure mostly in males?



## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

Ok, I don't know if this is by accident or just something that happens because males carry balls between their leg...LOL

anyways seriously now...
Was wondering if there is a connection between males have a tendency to crab walk compared to females.
I am not talking about the complete angle away from the handler- more the leg reaching out to the side.
Been watching a while now and it appears to me that males tend to want to bring their outside hind leg (away from the handler) further out then the other one close to the handler.
Where the females don't tend to do so. 
I was of course thinking about the way the heeling is trained, and the tallnes or shortness of the handler, but we have short women handling females, tall women handling males, small women handling tall females and short women handling tall males (comparetavly).

Any input? totally of the wall or is it really the fussy balls between the legs????:lol:


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

put some tightie whities on him and find out for sure


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Hard to say but have seen a few females mine included crabbing lately so its a tough call.but i dont think they have crabbed as badly as some males i have seen but that could purely be the training.

I dont think a set of testicles has anything to do with it=D>

i dont walk sideways cant speak for others:-\"


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> put some tightie whities on him and find out for sure


Oh God don't even start building steam on that one Joby. Next thing we'll see is you putting it out there that you're a free baller.

Oh and Kat, my smally snipe doesn't have any balls but she has a J-Lo ass on her. It's like the biggest part on this whole dog. Anyway, she's a crabber too. Pushy, in your face, determined type. Once I realized that she's inclined to do this I stopped forward movement with her and went back to the basics. But that said, I have a feeling she's naturally inclined to position herself in an opportunistic way so that she's got a bit of an advantage.


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

LOL... them males don't walk sideways either, back is straight, just the leg reaches out more.

tried to take in account the speed and the power collection could push the leg forward...
but also i know human balls are often contained by pants, where dog ones decend when it is hot and come up when it is cold, so in ehat they might dangle more... unfortunatly It is not winter yet...so I can't compare if the crabbing or leg reach changes...


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Kat Hunsecker said:


> LOL... them males don't walk sideways either, back is straight, just the leg reaches out more.
> 
> tried to take in account the speed and the power collection could push the leg forward...
> but also i know human balls are often contained by pants, where dog ones decend when it is hot and come up when it is cold, so in ehat they might dangle more... unfortunatly It is not winter yet...so I can't compare if the crabbing or leg reach changes...


Its bloody funny you are comparing dogs nuts with human and how they hang in the weather LMAO 

You really take your training seriously LOL

Thats gold !!!


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Kat Hunsecker said:


> LOL... them males don't walk sideways either, back is straight, just the leg reaches out more.
> 
> tried to take in account the speed and the power collection could push the leg forward...
> but also i know human balls are often contained by pants, where dog ones decend when it is hot and come up when it is cold, so in ehat they might dangle more... unfortunatly It is not winter yet...so I can't compare if the crabbing or leg reach changes...


Ha ha that's funny! I'm sure you do know that they are actually quite fluid in motion right? I don't know about all that dog related nut stuff but I figure nuts are nuts. I don't figure that many dogs are rolling their nuts in heeling routines but I do know that it's fairly common for animals to be right leg dominant in movement. All of my dogs have been to some extent and it becomes more pronounced the longer you work them unless they are conditioned rather well in which case if the dog is otherwise orthopedically sound and really well balanced it's more difficult to pick up on.

Anyway, I speculate it might be more of a male related quality (of really at all) in that many male working dogs have stronger character or more pronounced extremes than most females.


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

brad robert said:


> Its bloody funny you are comparing dogs nuts with human and how they hang in the weather LMAO
> 
> You really take your training seriously LOL
> 
> Thats gold !!!


 
Well I noticed and I try to think out side the box...LOL
and really - i noticed it more often with males then females... first thing that comes to mind is the anatomy.....:mrgreen:

I just noticed that males do it more often then females...
One of mine, he is 11 months old now does it because he doesn't have his balance,yet but he also turns his whole but out -we are working on this...
but other males were worked longer and are older , we even started sidepassing to get the leg under, it works for the side passes, but not long straight lines, while the back remains straight in moving direction...
just made em wonder....:wink:


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

try a cold pack from the freezer, no need to wait til winter to find out...

nah nicole I wont talk about my undies.

I however do not have to purchase any more underwear for many yrs to come, barring any freak accidents.

Worked a week clearing out a Target store, found a whole case (144) in my size, the guy running the teardown sold them to me for $10.00 for the whole case..

I did work dogs all day in a bitesuit one time wearing womans' granny panties, but that is story for another day...


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Kat Hunsecker said:


> ... first thing that comes to mind is the anatomy.....:mrgreen:


Ha ha, yea me too. :-#

Well, I suppose if you really want to study this have someone do some crafty filming of the nut swing while in heel and see if these shake leg movements are a result of the dog cleverly making room for the ball rotation. Maybe Joby's idea of tucking them up to keep em in place was a good one \\/

You know, if encouraged to, I could entertain a discussion like this all night. :twisted: LOL. And, no I am not really talking about dog nuts but making light of the nut discussion in general.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> nah nicole I wont talk about my undies.
> 
> I however do not have to purchase any more underwear for many yrs to come, barring any freak accidents.
> 
> ...


OMFG, you didn't really just disclose that strange morsel did you? Alright, WHY? And who the hell buys a 144 pairs of underwear at once??? I mean jeez Joby, even you should know that yer junk is going to start creeping down the older you get. How the heck are you going to know if those 144 pairs are even going to fit you right 10 years from now?

I mean heck if they were boxers you might be having that problem that Bob has in wearing shorts. [-(. Well don't say I didn't tell you so. :wink:


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

one time I was walking one of the dogs, and some lady, a total stranger says to me:

"damn, you're dog's balls are huge!" 

what could I say?

I told her, "he says, thank's for noticing he seems to like you too."


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

Intersting insights.... LOL
... some men walk funny, too, if the junk isn't sitting right...

if the side dominance of the dog and or the power is the cause of it, how do you fix it? or do you leave it alone as long as the back is straight?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Kat Hunsecker said:


> Intersting insights.... LOL
> ... some men walk funny, too, if the junk isn't sitting right...
> 
> if the side dominance of the dog and or the power is the cause of it, how do you fix it? or do you leave it alone as long as the back is straight?


which "side" is more dominant?


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

I would have to suspect that the right side might be more dominant and pushes the left out....


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Crabbing is a training issue!


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> Crabbing is a training issue!


Alright Bobbie Downer. No doubt. Which is why I said I was going back to the basics with my own dog. But then i got distracted by something way more interesting. Hey Bob, go mull around in another thread for a while. Kat and I were having fun ha ha. 

If Lee can talk about his beach babes then I think we're entitled to a little fun too \\/


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> which "side" is more dominant?


The side that has something stuck to it. :wink:


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

Nicole Stark said:


> The side that has something stuck to it. :wink:


Would make sense...LOL cause that would explain why males have this problem more then females... it could be that with females it is just a training issue and with males maybe hygiene...?!? ;o)


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

I really was wondering about if it happens morein males or females and what the cause could be...
but this dicussion makes it hard to stay serious....


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

ha ha, ya for me to.

I am certain what Bob said is right. It's a training issue. But it doesn't quite negate your question about what you perceive to be the propensity for males to do that more readily than females.

I don't really think it's a nut thing. But I am not certain that it's about nothing else. Especially since males do tend to have more pronounced qualities, the genetic components of their natural character that pushes them to be more demanding and just MORE may indeed be sex linked.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Dogs crab because the front and back legs/feet touch when the dog trots. The legs touch because of the way the dog is built and they move their feet slightly to the side so the front and back limbs don't bump into one another. For example, a dog that has a short back and long legs. Many dogs that crab at a trot also pace at a walk.


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

only other option is to watch neutered males...and i do know one...- he does not crab...;o)

I am not talking about an offset in walk that causes the back not beeing staright in moving direction.
The back is straight in moving direction but mostly the hind left leg comes out to the the side....

I am thinking of one male in perticular that I see on a regular basis. that's the one we sidepassed to get the leg under, and he does. and they paws do not touch or get close enough to each other to interfear.

Again the dog is straight with you in moving direction. If this is a training issue- with the leg out- how do you prevent it/ correct it??

and why does it appear to be more often in males then females?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Kat Hunsecker said:


> only other option is to watch neutered males...and i do know one...- he does not crab...;o)
> 
> I am not talking about an offset in walk that causes the back not beeing staright in moving direction.
> The back is straight in moving direction but mostly the hind left leg comes out to the the side....
> ...


you can test the theory by having Neuticals installed back into the neutered male  and see if he starts to do things that cause crabs to occur.


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> you can test the theory by having Neuticals installed back into the neutered male  and see if he starts to do things that cause crabs to occur.


Now...this is going way to far off topic...LOL .


> "....that cause crabs to occur..."


 :-#:-#:-o ROFLMAO!!!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

ok...

is there a video of this "crabbing" ?


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

Was trying to find atleast a picture, because i know we do not have video. But the pictures don't show it, we were sidepassing and then the leg came under straight.. so no no evidence in visual form...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Kat Hunsecker said:


> Was trying to find atleast a picture, because i know we do not have video. But the pictures don't show it, we were sidepassing and then the leg came under straight.. so no no evidence in visual form...


I am really slow in some areas, what is sidepassing? like wall work?


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

No, it is from working horses... it is purposefull going sideways in a diagonal with a hopefully straight body or a half pass (language barrier) , gymnastics, for more flexibiklity and collection... we are currently in trying this out with dogs and we do see some improvements...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Kat Hunsecker said:


> No, it is from working horses... it is purposefull going sideways in a diagonal with a hopefully straight body or a half pass (language barrier) , gymnastics, for more flexibiklity and collection... we are currently in trying this out with dogs and we do see some improvements...


ok...

seems to me that using a wall or an OB stick might be something I might try in this situation as well. just thinking out loud here.


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

We haven't tried a dressage crop, yet, they seem to fall in it, if you build it up like with the horses, If I would want to do more advanced stuff it might require an extended hand.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

heeling stick very useful


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Kat no offence but i hope i never meet you in person, i would go all self conscience that you would be analysing my gait in order to judge my manhood. 

Im insecure enough without that added pressure.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> Dogs crab because the front and back legs/feet touch when the dog trots. The legs touch because of the way the dog is built and they move their feet slightly to the side so the front and back limbs don't bump into one another. For example, a dog that has a short back and long legs. Many dogs that crab at a trot also pace at a walk.


Good point about the short backs and long legs but I've seen it create a pacing gate more often then crabbing. Both legs on one side moving in sinc in order to keep from stepping on their own front foot with a "normal" gait.
I know it has nothing to do with dogs crabbing in OB competition but I showed terriers in the breed ring for a number of years. A pacing gait wasn't uncommon but a quick lift of the front end with the lead could bring them back to a nice gait. It made them reach for the ground in front of them. 
Never saw a difference in male vs female in terriers.
Imbalance between front and rear angulation can also account for it. If there is no reach in the front and plenty of angulation in the rear it will happen.
In GSD and Mals I've not noticed the difference but seeing the female is often a bit longer in body could possibly account for the OP's thoughts .


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

@ Peter Cavallaro: LOL... Subconciously everybody judges everybody like that... plus some other things that happen in the first few seconds... But don't worry... I am actually kinds nice....:smile:


So we just have to wait and see and make more obeservations.... Was intriguing me... maybe it just will take some more time to answer this. ...


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## sam wilks (May 3, 2009)

I crab walk after a long day at the beach! Definitely the balls!


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

sam wilks said:


> I crab walk after a long day at the beach! Definitely the balls!


And there you have it. Confirmation. Thanks Sam!


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

sam wilks said:


> I crab walk after a long day at the beach! Definitely the balls!


thank you.... that is confirmation...LOL I knew I needed male insight...


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

About pacing (gait)... my male mali paces. I've always thought it was a sign of unsoundness, but he has paced since he was young. Not always, he does a correct trot as well. I think that for him it is a transition gait between walk and trot, or just easier for him. 

No balls, but he will wrap around me and swing his butt out. I consider that a training issue and have worked hard to teach him to move his hind end back. I think this is just a natural outcome of him anticipating a reward from the front of my body and positioning himself in the best place to get it. 

I wonder if seeing more males than females do this is simply because of the higher ratio of males in sport work. (or confirmation bias)


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

leslie cassian said:


> I wonder if seeing more males than females do this is simply because of the higher ratio of males in sport work. (or confirmation bias)


I dont think this is so in agility or obedience or herding for that matter. Many of the best agility dogs are female, often being lighter and more agile.

On the topic of crabbing, I have a mix of males and females and the only one that crabs is a showbred female BC. She has always crabbed since puppyhood, her rearend swings to the left. She does have quite a long back. I also have a cattle dog bitch that paces. She has a rolling gait that comes with the pace, this is her preferred gait since puppyhood. Both dogs are sound.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

leslie cassian said:


> About pacing (gait)... my male mali paces. I've always thought it was a sign of unsoundness, but he has paced since he was young. Not always, he does a correct trot as well. I think that for him it is a transition gait between walk and trot, or just easier for him.
> 
> No balls, but he will wrap around me and swing his butt out. I consider that a training issue and have worked hard to teach him to move his hind end back. I think this is just a natural outcome of him anticipating a reward from the front of my body and positioning himself in the best place to get it.
> 
> I wonder if seeing more males than females do this is simply because of the higher ratio of males in sport work. (or confirmation bias)


A lot of dogs will pace when they get tired. When they are at a speed they aren't comfortable with. When they are out of condition.


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

some nordic breeds pace a lot, seen Malimuts that do it a lot, some Huskies i have seen,too.
But pacing does not deed to take a dog into crabbing. Horses can do it so do camels and they still remain straight in their body. For me not so much an out of condition thing...

But I like to stress again, that i am not talking about the whole body beeing off set, - out of alignment with the front.... ( That is mostly an training issue)
I am talk about a straight back into moving direction, Shoulders in line with haunches. But left leg reaching out further to the side then the other....


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Kat Hunsecker said:


> But I like to stress again, that i am not talking about the whole body beeing off set, - out of alignment with the front.... ( That is mostly an training issue)
> I am talk about a straight back into moving direction, Shoulders in line with haunches. But left leg reaching out further to the side then the other....


 
I think that when a dog crabs naturally the haunches are slightly out of line. When my showbred BC trots very fast in a straight line when viewed from behind and when I look at her paw prints on the sand her haunches have a slight off set to them always to the left. 

She doesnt crab (training issue in the obedience ring), she knows how to align her body with me as we turn. 

She just naturally has a very slight offset to the left at an extended trot in a straight line with her left hind paw slightly to one side of her front paw. Has had this since she was a baby puppy and it has never changed despite her being a super fit and flexible adult with good hindend awareness..


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

Got a new tidbit of info. Freshly neutered males do crab in obedience.... gets better as they heal... 
so I keep looking at this...;0)


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