# Mating of these two dogs



## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Here's a question I'd like to ask of the people that know GSD pedigrees. I want to breed ( next Year ) my two dogs. Bentley is my male and I want a male pup out of him. My female is Lexus. She is only 16 months ols now and I want to get a title on her and get her xrayed before they are bred. Bentley is titled in AKC, SchH, and ASR. He injured an ACL so he is retired. He got his ASR-E in West Palm Beach this year and that was 10 months after his injury. He didn't preform as well as he should but he passed and that was just fine with me, besides he's eight years old.
Here are their pedigrees and you guy's tell me what you think.
http://www.qualityk9concepts.com/pedigree_bentley.html

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/449060.html

Thanks


----------



## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

I see some familiar and nice names in the Lexus pedigree, Tiekerhook, and vom Haus Iris in particular. I don't know much about the dogs... but I noticed names like "Sir Lancelot Duke Of Artee" and "Lady Jane Of Donnan" on Bentley's pedigree - - what lines is this dog supposed to be out of? Those sound like AKC American Line names... but I could be wrong, I've just never heard working line names that sound like that.... maybe british lines there? I don't know a thing about "Alsations" as they call em.


----------



## Sarah Hall (Apr 12, 2006)

What are you looking for out of a pup? Bently's pedigree doesn't impress me as far as any working SchH, FH (highest tracking award in SV), HGH (herding), or PH (police dog). Also, with all the "Ch."s, it sounds like the dog is out of show lines. The Lexus pedigree isn't too bad at all.
Mike, Alastain is an old term for German Shepherd Dog, used mainly during the war when anything GERMAN was BAD. It was mainly used in G.B., but was fairly enough used in America.
While we're on the subject of pedigrees, I'll throw in my Bo's dad's pedigree: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/7/35461.html
This can be used as a pretty good example of what to look for. The important thing isn't the SGRs and SGRNs, it's DDR (and like) registered/titled dogs. DDR (as I'm sure you know) is a great working line (east german).
Back on subject, depending on what you want out of the pup, research all the dogs on both pedigree's as you can and see how they really are. Without working the actual dogs in question, I really can't give a reliable answer. Just do your research and choose what you think is best.


----------



## Mike Russell (Apr 9, 2006)

Bentley's top half is good, however his bottom half does not impress me at all. I'd pass on him because of that if I were looking at him for a stud. The dog himself may be good, but he does not possess the genetics to consistently pass it on, nor is there any predictability there due to the bottom half.

Lexus's pedigree is much better than Bentley's. Her pedigree is filled with proven workers and producers of workers. I won't go into the detailed description of her pedigree, it takes a few hours to "tear it down" and analyze it. If I were to see this breeding happen, I'd automatically assume (it's bad, I know, but we're talking genetics here and not phenotype) that she was the stronger dog and wonder why she was bred to that male (Bentley).

To give some examples of how I stack genetics (though the 3 litters are different styles, they are puzzles in a greater plan that people won't understand unless they look back when we're 3 generations down the road), here are pedigrees for our first two litters and for the litter we're breeding (had a tie last night, going to do it again on Friday, then again Sunday if she's still standing)...

"A" litter...
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/390055.html

"B" litter...
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/398491.html

current breeding...
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/para.utkoma?fadir=442003&modir=392257


----------



## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

What I'm looking for in this breeding is a pup like Bentley. I know the bottom of his pedigree is some American show dogs but there is some working dogs in there too. His attitude is all working. I like a bigger dog and this he is too. He weighs in between 96 and 102 pounds. He is not fat, he's tall and long. He is the size that I like. He is very willing to please and will keep taking the fight to you. The more pressure you put on him the more he gives back and will refuse to loose. He crushes a hard sleeve and may you have help from above if you're in the suit. His tracking is good. I've had him do 100 point tracks many times in training but on trial day mid to upper 80's. He's loyal to me and is my shadow. I think he gets his genes from his sires side. Lexus is mine also and she's a great dog but not near as hard as he is. She does have a very good pedigree. She was slow to mature but now she is off the wall. Much easier to correct. She is my first female to own and work and she'll to well as long as I can remember she's not a Bentley. Thank you all for your input on this breeding question and would love to hear more responses. What you all have said is also my opinion.
Bentley has been bred twice. The first breeding they all went to pet homes except for one. He is working with customs the last I heard. The same with the second litter. One is being trained as a working dog and she is doing OK. Another of that litter would have been better but is in a pet home.
What really matters is that I get what I want out of this breeding. just wish there was guarantees with all breedings.
Have a great day and thanks again.


----------



## Mike Russell (Apr 9, 2006)

If he's been bred twice and most went to pet homes, doesn't that kind of answer the question? If he really produced strong dogs like you were looking for, wouldn't you have made sure they were all in working homes? Why didn't you keep one of the previous ones? Was there something lacking in the other litters? Sorry, but questions and a little info tend to beget more questions around me.

And while I understand that you think Bentley takes after his sire, he gets equal genetics from both parents. And his dam's side is questionable for reliable production of strong working stock. And with his size, that puts him out of standard...also a minus. I realize my opinions/comments aren't what you might have wanted to hear, but I'm one of those that will tell you what I think and you never have to guess where I stand on things.


----------



## Guest (Apr 14, 2006)

I would want to hear what kind of bitch Bentley was bred to the first 2 times before we crucify him. I don't agree with the popular opinion that the bitch doesn't matter; if he were bred to a bitch with 1/2 show, 1/2 working, like Bentley himself, there's a greater chance of getting pups that are pets. If he's bred to a serious working-line bitch, we could be pleasantly surprised. I would never have put Bentley's parents together-but, what's done is done, and Jerry got a great dog out of it. I have seen dogs with killer peds who aren't worth the rug they sleep on; Mike's right about what they produce being more important than what they are.


----------



## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Mike wrote,"If he's been bred twice and most went to pet homes, doesn't that kind of answer the question? If he really produced strong dogs like you were looking for, wouldn't you have made sure they were all in working homes?"
I didn't own the bitches so how can I say where the pups should go?
Mike wrote,"Why didn't you keep one of the previous ones? Was there something lacking in the other litters? " 
I didn't keep one because I live in a subdivions that restricks the number of animals you can have. I got a stud fee not a pick.
Mike wrote,"Sorry, but questions and a little info tend to beget more questions around me. 
No problem I'm that way too.
Mike wrote,"And while I understand that you think Bentley takes after his sire, he gets equal genetics from both parents. And his dam's side is questionable for reliable production of strong working stock.
You are correct about the 50/50 genetics, but that was meant as a joke. You may be right here also but his dam and sire did produce a strong Very strong working stock,Bentley.
Mike wrote,"And with his size, that puts him out of standard...also a minus. 
That does put him out of standard but he hasn't reproduced his size in any pup as of yet. If he did it would be OK with me, for I like the bigger dogs. That's just me, some people like big horses big cars even big women and that too is OK with me.
Mike wrote," I realize my opinions/comments aren't what you might have wanted to hear, but I'm one of those that will tell you what I think and you never have to guess where I stand on things.
I am so glad you said what you did and I'm sure you meant every word. That shows a lot of good character in the man that you are.
I ask for thoughts on this breeding and I thank you for yours. I will be breeding the two of them after she has been xrayed and has a title.

Jenni wrote," I would want to hear what kind of bitch Bentley was bred to the first 2 times before we crucify him. I don't agree with the popular opinion that the bitch doesn't matter; if he were bred to a bitch with 1/2 show, 1/2 working, like Bentley himself, there's a greater chance of getting pups that are pets.
The first breeding was with all working lines. IMO the dogs from that breeding could have been good club dogs. Two out of eight were really better. One went to customs and the other belongs to a friend of mine. He is a serious dog but was never trialed. The dog is very confident, like Bentley and a great temperment. They love kids and people but when it's time to go to work they go to work.
The second breeding was to a bitch that wasn't even AKC, she is CKC registered. A real sweet dog that loves people. One of those pups would have done good in schutzhund , a club dog but nothing any better than that maybe. It's hard to tell at this point, they are only nine months old. 
Jenni wrote," I have seen dogs with killer peds who aren't worth the rug they sleep on.
I have seen a lot too like this, but breeding is a crap shoot. Who knows what you're going to get with any breeding but with good genetics (from both sides) your chances are better. What I have in Bentley I like.
I thank everyone that has answered my question and some great points made but guess what, I'm going to breed them because I like what they both have to offer. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. :lol:


----------



## Mike Russell (Apr 9, 2006)

Jerry, 

I understand now. I thought (read: assumed incorrectly) that the bitches he was bred to before were yours. I understand about restrictions as well, thankfully I've always lived outside city limits and had the room and lack of restrictions.

I understand that you see Bentley as proof that his sire and dam could produce strong working stock, but what was the rest of his litter like? What did his dam produce when bred to other males? What did the sire produce when bred to other females? All are important factors when making breeding decisions. Flukes happen. I've personally seen and worked a dog with a total crap pedigree that was pretty decent, however the rest of the litter was crap...so the genetics weren't really there, the dog was more than likely a fluke or product of excellent training. Not saying that's the case with Bentley, but it was the case with this dog that I mentioned.

I also realize that people will do what they want to, and I do wish you the best. Hopefully you'll get what you're looking for in the litter. I would be confident in saying that a male from your prospective litter would have a greater chance of producing working dogs than his sire though, just based on the infusion of strong working lines coming from the dam and diluting the bottom half of the sire's pedigree/genetics.


----------



## Guest (Apr 14, 2006)

Good luck, Jerry.Hope it works out for you. Just breeding working lines to working/whatever lines doesn't always pan out. The dogs need to be carefully matched with certain things in mind. Lexus may have the traits to pass down that the first working line bitch didn't. Only time will tell, I guess. :wink:


----------



## Stacia Porter (Apr 8, 2006)

I realize you've already made your decision, but it really rubs me the wrong way that you're breeding a dog outside of the standard. (i.e. FAR too large). I know some will argue the validity of SV breeding standards, but I plan to adhere to them should I ever wish to breed my dog (who IS within the GSD standard, btw). You might like "large" shepherds, but that extra size and weight often spells trouble for the hips, and I believe it lends itself to decreased agility and speed. And while your dog has not yet reproduced his size he has the potential to, just as a sire of a fault color has the potential to reproduce that in his offspring.

Perhaps it is because there are so many hundreds of shepherds who will be PTS every day in shelters, or because there are so many who have serious health and physical problems due to bad breeding, but I just cannot fathom putting a dog to stud who does not meet height or weight requirements, or who had a roached back, or bad hip angulation, or is a faulted color, or has temperment problems. There are plenty of dogs within standard to consider for breeding stock.

You think your dog is wonderfull, and that's understandable. But does being wonderful provide a good case for breeding? 

With all due respect,


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Stacia Porter said:


> ....You might like "large" shepherds, but that extra size and weight often spells trouble for the hips, and I believe it lends itself to decreased agility and speed. And while your dog has not yet reproduced his size he has the potential to, just as a sire of a fault color has the potential to reproduce that in his offspring.
> 
> Perhaps it is because there are so many hundreds of shepherds who will be PTS every day in shelters, or because there are so many who have serious health and physical problems due to bad breeding, but I just cannot fathom putting a dog to stud who does not meet height or weight requirements, or who had a roached back, or bad hip angulation, or is a faulted color, or has temperment problems. There are plenty of dogs within standard to consider for breeding stock.......With all due respect,


What I am going to say is also with respect and the knowledge that there are factors we can't know on a forum like this.

That said, I too look at breeding from the viewpoint of someone who has seen too many hundreds of the millions of unwanted dogs -- including purebred dogs -- in this country, and from the viewpoint of someone who researches canine health on an almost-daily basis.

But presumably you have every potential pup spoken for well in advance as well as the financial wherewithal to deal with all the unexpected costs that occur with breeding, from unexpectedly having to keep several pups to unexpected vet bills, so my comments might be unwarranted (except the size thing and the connection with health challenges).

Whatever you do, I wish you well in the decision.


----------



## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> That said, I too look at breeding from the viewpoint of someone who has seen too many hundreds of the millions of unwanted dogs -- including purebred dogs -- in this country, and from the viewpoint of someone who researches canine health on an almost-daily basis.
> 
> But presumably you have every potential pup spoken for well in advance as well as the financial wherewithal to deal with all the unexpected costs that occur with breeding, from unexpectedly having to keep several pups to unexpected vet bills, so my comments might be unwarranted (except the size thing and the connection with health challenges).


I personally am very unlikely to go to a shelter and get a dog there, I'll most likely always have a purebred dog. I say most likely because I don't know what I'm having for breakfast tomorrow, let alone what I'll be doing in 10, 20, 30 years. So I see it from a different viewpoint.... if you have 10 people lined up to buy pups from your litter, and none of these people would go to a shelter to adopt a dog anyway, and these people will take care of the dogs... then I don't see a problem in a responsible breeding, because the dogs wont end up in a shelter, and none of the buyers would have helped shelter dogs anyway... so in effect all you're doing is providing a dog to people who want a dog, will take care of a dog, and not have any adverse effects on the shelter system or number of dogs that will be in a shelter. Now, if you're gonna end up with 10 dogs from a big litter and nobody who wants the pups, and can't afford to take care of 10 dogs yourself and you start to appeal either to shelters or people who would ordinarily be adopting from a shelter, then I think it's unfair to shelter dogs... I think lining up buyers before breeding or knowing you're gonna have the buyers within 8 weeks from the breeding is important, other than that I don't see a problem with breeding a dog to have your dogs son because there was no negative effect to the shelter dog world, everything remains neutral.


----------



## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Where did this shelter thing come from. I didn't say any would be going to a shelter. How many, if anyone can tell me, of a breeding of the perfect in every way sire and dam pups did or did not go to a shelter or just put in a kennel because they did not turn out the way the breeder or new owner wanted them to turn out. I wish I had never ask about the breeding now in the first place.


----------



## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Often when people don't like someones choice in breeding they will think along the lines of "If you're not breeding the best dogs in the world and only breeding to get a son out of your dog and make a few other people happy, then tell the other people to get a dog from a shelter and don't breed". My point was that even if it's the worst breeding in the world, as long as the pups are healthy and taken care of then it doesn't make a damn difference if they're the best in the world or the most useless dogs ever.

People tend to get very touchy if they hear of someone planning on breeding dogs of whom the pedigree they do not like, and you have some dogs in the pedigree that, by name, are not considered very good candidates for breeding. However, that doesn't mean your dog isn't a great dog and it doesn't mean the pups can't be great dogs, it's just the way people seem to think when someone asks about breeding -- and you did ask peoples opinions on your dogs pedigrees.

If your dog is the dog I'm thinking of that I saw on an ASR trial video then Bentley is a very nice dog  I wish you the best of luck in your breeding and I hope you keep us posted when your puppies hit the ground.

This is a very personal topic, people breed dogs every day without asking for someone elses opinion and nobody ever has a problem with it... but as soon as someone asks everyone can come up with 100 reasons not to do it. So with that said, I'm locking this thread because I don't like the direction it's headed, I've seen it happen before. You can call someones wife fat and they'll tell ya "yeah she sure is", but if you call someones dog fat you better watch out :lol:


----------

