# Coyote Protection



## Haz Othman

My father in law just asked me what breed I would recommend for Coyote protection. They live in a rural area and have a slew of little dogs. Apparently one got carried off yesterday. I suggested shooting the damn things and he agreed but said there are lots in the area and he would never be able to get more then a couple, he has a big property and they walk their dogs all over it. So he wants a bigger dog to protect the little ones..lol.
Any suggestions? I would think GSD would be a good choice but with my bad experiences with them lately Im hesitent..Howabout a Rottie?


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## Ricky Mav

Haz Othman said:


> My father in law just asked me what breed I would recommend for Coyote protection. They live in a rural area and have a slew of little dogs. Apparently one got carried off yesterday. I suggested shooting the damn things and he agreed but said there are lots in the area and he would never be able to get more then a couple, he has a big property and they walk their dogs all over it. So he wants a bigger dog to protect the little ones..lol.
> Any suggestions? I would think GSD would be a good choice but with my bad experiences with them lately Im hesitent..Howabout a Rottie?


I would personally look into Bulldog breeds or Flock Guardian breeds like Anatolian Shepherds, Great Pyrenees, and the like.


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## patricia powers

i would second the anatolians
pjp


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## rick smith

a slew ?? how many is that ??
lottsa coyotes ? i doubt he has been able to get an accurate coyote "head count"; they are pretty cagey...that's why they have been able to expand into cities all over the states and not just hang out in rural areas :-(

how are the dogs contained now ? how much space is fenced off for the dogs and how is it secured at night ?
how coyote proofed is his property now ?

i'd tell him to cover all that first and maybe give the dogs a safer place to play...they'll still be happy and safer
- plus, dogs aren't like a flock of sheep and if the dog's are free to roam all over off leash i would expect a coyote or two could pick em off at will

- did he see what happened and knows it was a coyote and not another predator, and did he recover the dog, etc ?
- no wildlife warden/ranger types in his area that can assist when a known coyote problem is reported ?

- country living is great but you gotta accept the wildlife that comes with it and not always expect to have your cake and eat it to 
- and i do like dogs a lot more than coyotes

since that has all been hashed out and discussed and a dog is the only option ....(lol)
a big guardian breed that is real and will do the job probably won't be easy to find or cheap either ... and then they would have to consider neighbors, deliveries, postman and/or kids, etc., who might be at risk depending on how "real" it is 

i think i remember a past thread that discussed this topic ...
i'd be interested to see what he comes up with...keep us posted


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## Edward Weiss

rick smith said:


> a slew ?? how many is that ??
> lottsa coyotes ? i doubt he has been able to get an accurate coyote "head count"; they are pretty cagey...that's why they have been able to expand into cities all over the states and not just hang out in rural areas :-(
> 
> how are the dogs contained now ? how much space is fenced off for the dogs and how is it secured at night ?
> how coyote proofed is his property now ?
> 
> i'd tell him to cover all that first and maybe give the dogs a safer place to play...they'll still be happy and safer
> - plus, dogs aren't like a flock of sheep and if the dog's are free to roam all over off leash i would expect a coyote or two could pick em off at will
> 
> - did he see what happened and knows it was a coyote and not another predator, and did he recover the dog, etc ?
> - no wildlife warden/ranger types in his area that can assist when a known coyote problem is reported ?
> 
> - country living is great but you gotta accept the wildlife that comes with it and not always expect to have your cake and eat it to
> - and i do like dogs a lot more than coyotes
> 
> since that has all been hashed out and discussed and a dog is the only option ....(lol)
> a big guardian breed that is real and will do the job probably won't be easy to find or cheap either ... and then they would have to consider neighbors, deliveries, postman and/or kids, etc., who might be at risk depending on how "real" it is
> 
> i think i remember a past thread that discussed this topic ...
> i'd be interested to see what he comes up with...keep us posted


In my experience an Airedale one on one will terminate a coyote.
Similiarly I had a situation when a pack 4 or 5 surrounded my two who then went tail to tail spinning with coyotes in outer perimeter.
Finally I shot one while bird hunting when my old dog then a young dog ran it out of a culvert.
What Airedales cant do is run a coyote down like the pro's ,staghound or greyhound pit mixes. A number of the smaller dales are used as tolling dogs to bring coyotes into rifle range.


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## Ricky Mav

I also heard in another forum that a Coyote will try to bait a single dog so the whole pack can attack him. Some people said that they try to go for the dog's genitals.


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## Haz Othman

Ricky Mav said:


> I also heard in another forum that a Coyote will try to bait a single dog so the whole pack can attack him. Some people said that they try to go for the dog's genitals.


Believe it or not they have been living in the area for many many years. They have about five small dogs and haven't lost one yet the one that they did lose was old and sick. The land is mainly wooded and swamp so I don't think fencing is an option. They do a lot of of least trail walking in the area they have seen coyotes before and have been stalked by them. But have never lost a dog. I have not seen any Airedale Terrier breeders around here though I have seen some great pyranese advertise on the local classified. However, the quality of said dogs is anyones guess. I guess the best bet would be to go and evaluate the dogs in person. Hopefully a diamond in the rough will be found. I have seen some Black and Tan Coonhound that will supposedly run coyote advertising the local classified what the Hound be a good deterrent?


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## Dominic Rozzi

Haz Othman said:


> Believe it or not they have been living in the area for many many years. They have about five small dogs and haven't lost one yet the one that they did lose was old and sick. The land is mainly wooded and swamp so I don't think fencing is an option. They do a lot of of least trail walking in the area they have seen coyotes before and have been stalked by them. But have never lost a dog. I have not seen any Airedale Terrier breeders around here though I have seen some great pyranese advertise on the local classified. However, the quality of said dogs is anyones guess. I guess the best bet would be to go and evaluate the dogs in person. Hopefully a diamond in the rough will be found. I have seen some Black and Tan Coonhound that will supposedly run coyote advertising the local classified what the Hound be a good deterrent?


you really don't want something thats going to run a coyote you want something unless he's in a pack with others, they will bait a single dog sometimes you want something that will stick around and protect someone mentioned bull breeds ---dogos are death on coyotes, so are airedales --but like someone else posted the guardian dogs are on the top of the list---but years ago i had an old working line tibetan mastiff---end of story


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## Lalit Dukkipati

Livestock Guardians may get the job done if you get a good one or two maybe . Some like Anatolians have been known to bark too much at night . Coyotes are getting to be bolder than the usual , and they have very long canines and the instinct of a predator. there is this website that has some informationn about LGD s . Maybe you can email them about the actual effectiveness of an LGD , 
http://www.lgd.org/ .. 

Other than that I would really recommend a hard proven *Dogo Argentino* from *hunting lines* . You have some people in the USA that hunt boar and coyote with them . there may be many , But two prominent people do that , especially a guy in California does use dogs on Coyotes , Dogos . He hunts them down with his dogos and some other breeds to pursue . 
. As the forum doesn't allow or encourage such posting of such websites I am not mentioning them here . There is also a guy in Texas that breeds Dogos from hunting lines . 

You need to speak to people who actually used dogs on Coyotes . Bernard Shockely , from Southern california has a lot of experience with this , He is the man to give advice on such a topic . To kill a predator who is trying to kill an adversary is very real . the dog has to really have aggression in him and the size and endurance . Coyotes have evolved on the basis of natural selection and their aggression is real and predatory . They can be ruthless , once they get used to killing dogs.
You need a dog that is a hunter of big game with predatory fighting instincts from proven good lines and not just any dog from the Dogo lines .

Lalit





Haz Othman said:


> Believe it or not they have been living in the area for many many years. They have about five small dogs and haven't lost one yet the one that they did lose was old and sick. The land is mainly wooded and swamp so I don't think fencing is an option. They do a lot of of least trail walking in the area they have seen coyotes before and have been stalked by them. But have never lost a dog. I have not seen any Airedale Terrier breeders around here though I have seen some great pyranese advertise on the local classified. However, the quality of said dogs is anyones guess. I guess the best bet would be to go and evaluate the dogs in person. Hopefully a diamond in the rough will be found. I have seen some Black and Tan Coonhound that will supposedly run coyote advertising the local classified what the Hound be a good deterrent?


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## Jessica Kromer

Odd timing; just got a link to this video this morning in an e-mail: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQbXSl1ReuQ


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## Brian McQuain

The Kuvasz out here do a fine job. Another breed that can handle business is the Ovcharka, and Brian McQuains are pretty good at taking out 'yotes too.


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## Lalit Dukkipati

Lalit Dukkipati said:


> Livestock Guardians may get the job done if you get a good one or two maybe . Some like Anatolians have been known to bark too much at night . Coyotes are getting to be bolder than the usual , and they have very long canines and the instinct of a predator. there is this website that has some informationn about LGD s . Maybe you can email them about the actual effectiveness of an LGD ,
> http://www.lgd.org/ ..
> 
> Other than that I would really recommend a hard proven *Dogo Argentino* from *hunting lines* . You have some people in the USA that hunt boar and coyote with them . there may be many , But two prominent people do that , especially a guy in California does use dogs on Coyotes , Dogos . He hunts them down with his dogos and some other breeds to pursue .
> . As the forum doesn't allow or encourage such posting of such websites I am not mentioning them here . There is also a guy in Texas that breeds Dogos from hunting lines .
> 
> You need to speak to people who actually used dogs on Coyotes . Bernard Shockely , from Southern california has a lot of experience with this , He is the man to give advice on such a topic . To kill a predator who is trying to kill an adversary is very real . the dog has to really have aggression in him and the size and endurance . Coyotes have evolved on the basis of natural selection and their aggression is real and predatory . They can be ruthless , once they get used to killing dogs.
> You need a dog that is a hunter of big game with predatory fighting instincts from proven good lines and not just any dog from the Dogo lines .
> 
> Lalit


This website " living with coyotes" might help understand a bit.
http://wdfw.wa.gov/living/coyotes.html#problems

Lalit


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## Robley Smith

There has been a lot of renewed interest in livestock guarding breeds since the introduction of non native wolves in the west. A search will bring up a lot of information. I would lean towards the Kangal.


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## Bob Scott

With selecting the right breeding any of the LGBs will do the job. A close tie for me would be a couple of working Dales.


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## Kim Cardinal

Haz Othman said:


> My father in law just asked me what breed I would recommend for Coyote protection. They live in a rural area and have a slew of little dogs. Apparently one got carried off yesterday. I suggested shooting the damn things and he agreed but said there are lots in the area and he would never be able to get more then a couple, he has a big property and they walk their dogs all over it. So he wants a bigger dog to protect the little ones..lol.
> Any suggestions? I would think GSD would be a good choice but with my bad experiences with them lately Im hesitent..Howabout a Rottie?


Best breed to protect against coyotes = the Great Pyrenees. Don't waste your time with any other breed.


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## Brian McQuain

Kim Cardinal said:


> Best breed to protect against coyotes = the Great Pyrenees. Don't waste your time with any other breed.


Youre kidding, right?


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## Kim Cardinal

Brian McQuain said:


> Youre kidding, right?



...well, I could have suggested an ass, but then I checked, which forum I was on, and it was the working dog forum, not the working equine. {sigh}! To the op, get a donkey, and spare any dog breed! (But, no I wasn't kidding...the GP is one of your best lines of K9 defence, against coyotes).


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## Michael Murphy

easily a kangal, proven against wolf, cheetah and mountain lions. a coyote wont come anywhere near one


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## Lalit Dukkipati

http://www.predatordefense.org/coyotes.htm#facts 

There's this other view of Wildlife Biologists about the Coyotes . Wouldn't hurt to look at it .


It's good to consult people of www.lgd.org if thinking of getting a livestock guardian dog . This is a non-profit organisation that would advise people . I think the Kangal , Karabash and Anatolian Shepherd might be the same dog , all turkish in origin . These dogs are supposed to be incessant barkers in the nights . If you have neighbours who doesn't appreciate it , it would bring in a new set of problems.
However, what I write here is merely second-hand information .

Best option is contacting a person who has experience with this or the above website or a wildlife game warden .

Regards,
Lalit


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## Michael Murphy

first two yes but anatolian shepherd is what show dog breeders call them, so you get smaller dogs with narrow heads, pathetic examples of the breed.


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## leslie cassian

One horse farm I worked on had a nice Komondor that patrolled the fields at night. Owner kept his coat shaved rather than corded. Cool dog, but huge and intimidating. Fairly people tolerant as there were a lot of people coming and going from the farm, but not particularly social. Definitely a working dog, not a pet. 

They have little dogs. Do they want to take on the expense and responsibility of a large breed dog? Whole different ball game there, especially with the guardian breeds. Do they really want a dog hunting and killing coyotes? Or do they just want a larger dog as a deterrent? In that case, any large dog that stays with the little ones will do.


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## David Winners

Michael Murphy said:


> first two yes but anatolian shepherd is what show dog breeders call them, so you get smaller dogs with narrow heads, pathetic examples of the breed.


So all three yes, the same breed, but the latter is the nomenclature that show breeders use, and their lines differ from working lines.


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## Michael Murphy

David Winners said:


> So all three yes, the same breed, but the latter is the nomenclature that show breeders use, and their lines differ from working lines.


exactly


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## Michael Murphy

in turkey they got the kangal which has a black mask therefore the world "karabash" meaning black face and they also have another dog almost identical in appearance but it is all white, no black face, called the akbash . the akbash is known for being more serious and less social


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## Tiago Fontes

Haz Othman said:


> My father in law just asked me what breed I would recommend for Coyote protection. They live in a rural area and have a slew of little dogs. Apparently one got carried off yesterday. I suggested shooting the damn things and he agreed but said there are lots in the area and he would never be able to get more then a couple, he has a big property and they walk their dogs all over it. So he wants a bigger dog to protect the little ones..lol.
> Any suggestions? I would think GSD would be a good choice but with my bad experiences with them lately Im hesitent..Howabout a Rottie?


 
A livestock guardian dog breed is your best option. Low energy, big enough, will bark to signal its presence... Ideally, consider a male and female... Great Pyrenees, Kangal, Estrela Mountain Dog, Caucasian Ovcharka... etc etc.


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## Michael Murphy

the ovcharka is not usually bred for livestock guarding anymore (or rarely) from what i have herd they are used mainly as security dogs , ppd or for dog fighting. which makes them more of a liablity especially with smaller dogs.
i think the maremma, great and kangal are the only ones really left that are still used for that purpose


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## Larry Krohn

Haz Othman said:


> My father in law just asked me what breed I would recommend for Coyote protection. They live in a rural area and have a slew of little dogs. Apparently one got carried off yesterday. I suggested shooting the damn things and he agreed but said there are lots in the area and he would never be able to get more then a couple, he has a big property and they walk their dogs all over it. So he wants a bigger dog to protect the little ones..lol.
> Any suggestions? I would think GSD would be a good choice but with my bad experiences with them lately Im hesitent..Howabout a Rottie?


Hands down no comparison Anatolian Shepherd. No other compares in every aspect and I have a great deal of experience with the breed. You will not regret it.


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## Sarah Platts

It would be nice to know when you are recommending a particular breed if you have worked with that breed in the purpose intended. If you are recommending a Great Pyrennes, do you have one as a working guardian dog or just read about them. Is your recommendation based on postings from another site or someone else's experiences. It's nice to say get such-and-such dog but that breed may not be available in the area of the OP (or be to expensive to even consider). When you list a breed how about giving the pros and cons of that breed?

Also most of the guardian dogs are hard headed, may not be overly social, and take a lot of persistance to train. These folks may not be able to tolerate or deal with dogs that aren't "pet" dogs in temperament. Then you factor in location (summer heat/winter cold), health issues of the various GDs, life spans, etc and some breeds (although not the first choice) may actually do better. 

If the poster is still intent then contact the local livestock ranchers in their area. See what they are using because they know what works in their area and have dealt with all the above issues. I know that when the coyotes moved into our area we changed the way and pattern of how we keep the livestock. Yes, we have dogs. Yes, we will shoot them if we can. But sometimes the best solution is to avoid the conflict in the first place. Simple changes on our part = no loss to coyotes to date.


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## Larry Krohn

But yes, more of a Kangal fan than show quality Anatolian. The Kangal is hands down the most powerful dog on the planet. Does great in 100 degree weather and also in 0 degree weather. This dog relaxes all day and is up all night but does not want to be indoors. The ones that I have worked with usually wont even go in a dog house or covered pen, they like being out in the elements. They will not look for trouble and will not go after people unless totaly necessary. The most impressive breed I have ever been around and I have worked with a lot of the Central Asian breeds


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## Haz Othman

Hey guys thanks for all the info. My father in law and his wife are obviously fairly upset about this they enjoy their property and the freedom it allows their dogs which they have had for years. They are especially upset because now they feel that they always need to look over their shoulder and can no longer relax with their dogs while outdoors which for them is frequent. Their home is right in the middle of a substantial woodlot which males it easy for coyote to get close undetected. 

Lait I never considered dogos because I had heard so many bad things about them and how they had lost the drove and work ethic that made them good guardians and hunters. If the breeders down south but you were mentioning could provide a dog that would fulfill the role we have in mind i would appreciate a pm.

In relation to the other breed mentioned, the only one that I could find in my local area is the great pyrenees. Obviously it's difficult to say what the quality of the individual dogs are since this is kijiji and whether they would even do the work. If anyone knows any breeders that are producing Anatolian shepherds or similar such breeds that are actually working please let me know. My father in law would prefer a young adult or oldrr pup if possible. They want a dog that will watch over their property and small pack of little dogs and also go with them on their walks. The dog does not have to actively hunt down coyotes but act as a deterrent and if necessary Engage a Predator that has not been deterred by simple barking.Obviously a dog that's barking all night for no particular reason would not be desired.


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## Haz Othman

Sorry i should have said interested in kangal too


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## Ricky Mav

Sarah Platts said:


> It would be nice to know when you are recommending a particular breed if you have worked with that breed in the purpose intended. If you are recommending a Great Pyrennes, do you have one as a working guardian dog or just read about them. Is your recommendation based on postings from another site or someone else's experiences. It's nice to say get such-and-such dog but that breed may not be available in the area of the OP (or be to expensive to even consider). When you list a breed how about giving the pros and cons of that breed?
> 
> Also most of the guardian dogs are hard headed, may not be overly social, and take a lot of persistance to train. These folks may not be able to tolerate or deal with dogs that aren't "pet" dogs in temperament. Then you factor in location (summer heat/winter cold), health issues of the various GDs, life spans, etc and some breeds (although not the first choice) may actually do better.
> 
> If the poster is still intent then contact the local livestock ranchers in their area. See what they are using because they know what works in their area and have dealt with all the above issues. I know that when the coyotes moved into our area we changed the way and pattern of how we keep the livestock. Yes, we have dogs. Yes, we will shoot them if we can. But sometimes the best solution is to avoid the conflict in the first place. Simple changes on our part = no loss to coyotes to date.


What part of Southeast Virginia are you located in? I could swear that my dogs and I encountered one that fled here in Va Beach. It was larger than a Fox and not the same color, I know it wasn't a dog, and when it ran it's tail was held down.


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## Brian McQuain

Sarah Platts said:


> It would be nice to know when you are recommending a particular breed if you have worked with that breed in the purpose intended. If you are recommending a Great Pyrennes, do you have one as a working guardian dog or just read about them. Is your recommendation based on postings from another site or someone else's experiences. It's nice to say get such-and-such dog but that breed may not be available in the area of the OP (or be to expensive to even consider). When you list a breed how about giving the pros and cons of that breed?
> 
> Also most of the guardian dogs are hard headed, may not be overly social, and take a lot of persistance to train. These folks may not be able to tolerate or deal with dogs that aren't "pet" dogs in temperament. Then you factor in location (summer heat/winter cold), health issues of the various GDs, life spans, etc and some breeds (although not the first choice) may actually do better.
> 
> If the poster is still intent then contact the local livestock ranchers in their area. See what they are using because they know what works in their area and have dealt with all the above issues. I know that when the coyotes moved into our area we changed the way and pattern of how we keep the livestock. Yes, we have dogs. Yes, we will shoot them if we can. But sometimes the best solution is to avoid the conflict in the first place. Simple changes on our part = no loss to coyotes to date.


 
Thats why I asked Kim if she was kidding. We do have, and use, Kuvasz to protect the sheep. Every day, every night. They have had no training, and the only attention they get from humans is a bowl of food twice a day. They have never seen the inside of a house, and never leave the stock. We have big, bold, nasty coyotes around here, and these dogs havent failed yet.


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## rick smith

well, a lot of good advice on breed choices, but hope it is clear it's not as easy as going out and buying one 

my guess is they won't spend the time, money and effort into locating an experienced breeder, and then selecting, buying, training and caring for an effective guardian breed.....but i hope i'm wrong 

maybe a nice big low drive gsd that loves his/her pack mates might be easier and cheaper ? ducking and running 

please keep us informed !


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## Sarah Platts

Ricky Mav said:


> What part of Southeast Virginia are you located in? I could swear that my dogs and I encountered one that fled here in Va Beach. It was larger than a Fox and not the same color, I know it wasn't a dog, and when it ran it's tail was held down.


they are there and I've seen them too. Have both red and grey fox down there to. Up at the parents' farm in northern Va, the coyotes moved in 25 years ago and now the latest greatest predator moving in is mountain lion. Which people are reporting but according to "knowledgeable gov't sources" its all a figment of our imaginations.


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## Amanda Caldron

Look into the caucasion shepherds, pyranese, anatolian or maramma (sp?) 

Just remember that any dog that is genetically equipped to do the work could mean that the dog may see other potential threats as targets as well (including children, other animals, any new people) definitely do your research and make sure they understand to be ready to invest time, money, training, etc.


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## Bob Scott

How many here that have claimed a particular breed as "the best", "The only breed to get", "Hands down", etc have actually worked one of these dogs for LGD? Better yet, how many have worked more then one breed for LGD?
Then tell us why you think that particular breed is better compared to other LGD breeds?
Find a long time breeder of any good working line LGD, be it a purebred or mix and chances are you'll get one to do the job. 
If you have a prefference for a particular breed based on whatever then go for it. *STILL* look for a good breeder that has actually had dogs that perform the job intended.


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## rick smith

what Bob just said !
and after you have gone thru the breeder selection process, paid for your dog that WILL do the job, got it trained, and get everything all set up

.... remember that you WILL always have coyotes waiting in the wings learning how to get past that LGD :smile:

perimeter physical security is usually measured in how long it delays entry rather than preventing it


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## Brad Trull

Ricky Mav said:


> I also heard in another forum that a Coyote will try to bait a single dog so the whole pack can attack him. Some people said that they try to go for the dog's genitals.


 This is why we never tried to run less than a trio of hounds on them. They will peel one dog off, while running and single them out, going for the hamstrings/flanks. Yotes get call wise very quick here east of the mississippi , not so much out west .


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## Ben Thompson

I would just ask some trappers to come on the property and take out as many as possible make it a ritual every fall. Just like with muskrats you trap them all out of the pond next year theres a whole new lot of them.


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## Tonya Beam

We lived in a very rural area and our neighbors small dog was attacked by a coyote. I was once targeted by a couple of them when I was out biking with my pit bull, until they realized that she had a human attached to her, and they backed off. So the coyotes backed off. We had a small dog, and several rotties, I can tell you that those coyotes never came close to my house when she was out in the yard with them. I never worried about her. I can tell you that they will target a single dog to try to lure them out, saw them try to do it with one of my rotties that was out by herself. 

I guess it depends on whether you just want the small dogs safe, or actually want a dog to attack the coyotes. If it were me, I would just want the dogs safe, and you also want to be sure that the dog you get is good with the little dogs. Not all of those breeds are good with small dogs.


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## Haz Othman

Just an update they will be building a fence and are looking into a great pyr


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## Bob Scott

Sounds like a good start!


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## Chris Keister

I have a bit of experience in this area.....

1) one dog for coyotes is bad ju ju for the dog. You need at least two preferably three or more.

2) just like any form of "work" it's more about the dog or group of dogs than specific breed. 

The dogs I had and used while living in rural areas were a 60 lb female Mal, 75 lb male Boxer, and 65lb male gsd pit bull mix. This group worked well because the Mal could catch them and the other two were strong enough to dispatch them. I did not go specifically looking for coyote dogs they were what I had at the time and worked well. 

I lived on a working cattle ranch at the time. When the cows dropped their calves the coyotes would get whatever they could. We would sit in the truck drink beer, let the dogs loose. The dogs worked on their own while patrolled in the truck and shot very coyote on sight. It worked well.


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## Chris Keister

My girlfriends father said that group of dogs was the best he had ever seen at that particular job. He is a second generation rancher and has been through and seen a lot of dogs. 

Those dogs were never trained to do any of it. My Malinios was a competition sport dog, my Boxer I raised in the city, and the mutt was a dog I found on the side of the road. 

It's more about the individual dogs and how they function as a team.

I can't stress this enough. You put one dog in a situation to guard against coyotes in a heavy population and you can say bye bye to that dog. My Boxer killed 2 coyotes on his own but those were single yotes. He did get lured away and jumped while we were on a fishing trip and if I was not armed at the time they would have killed him.


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## Chris Keister

My girlfriends father said that group of dogs was the best he had ever seen at that particular job. He is a second generation rancher and has been through and seen a lot of dogs. 

Those were never trained to do any of it. My Malinios was a competition sport dog, my Boxer I raised in the city, and the mutt was a dog I found on the side of the road. 

It's more about the individual dogs and how they function as a team than the individual dog. 

I can't stress this enough. You put one dog in a situation to guard against coyotes in a heavy population and you can say bye bye to that dog. 

My Boxer killed two yotes on his own but they were singles. He got lured away while we were on a fishing trip and had I not been armed they would have killed him. One dog is not enough for coyotes.


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## Michael Murphy

one male and one female kangal is more than enough for a few coyotes
males are about 80 cm at the shoulder and 60 kg
and females are 75 cm and 50 kg
they also happen to have the strongest jaw pressure of any dog


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## Christopher Smith

Michael Murphy said:


> they also happen to have the strongest jaw pressure of any dog


 :banghead:


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## Tiago Fontes

Christopher Smith said:


> :banghead:


 
:doublebanghead:


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## Sarah Platts

Michael Murphy said:


> one male and one female kangal is more than enough for a few coyotes
> males are about 80 cm at the shoulder and 60 kg
> and females are 75 cm and 50 kg
> they also happen to have the strongest jaw pressure of any dog


What has been your exeriences with the breed?


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## Larry Krohn

Michael Murphy said:


> one male and one female kangal is more than enough for a few coyotes
> males are about 80 cm at the shoulder and 60 kg
> and females are 75 cm and 50 kg
> they also happen to have the strongest jaw pressure of any dog


All very true. I have worked with several and I am facinated at the Kangal's ability to kill ANYTHING that threatens its flock. Love these dogs and are great to work with. They are not trouble makers and can handle any type of bad weather hot or cold. I tell people that I work with a lot of powerful breeds but the Kangal is like working with a lion. One Kangal will usually get the job done. Coyotes are not stupid


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## Tiago Fontes

So, you also vouch for the "strongest jaw pressure"? lol


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## Larry Krohn

Tiago Fontes said:


> So, you also vouch for the "strongest jaw pressure"? lol


Yes Tiago, by far. I have also witnessed too many international dog fights where they put different breeds against each, it's disgusting, I know, but I'm a federal agent and sometimes you see disgusting things. I can tell you first hand there is not another dog on the planet that even competes with the Kangal. Take all your other top power breeds, Tosa, Caucasian, all the Cntral Asian dogs, they either quit quickly or the Kangal kills them. Rottweilers and Pitbulls are done in seconds, yet these Kangals do great as family dogs. Please don't think I'm glorifying dog fighting, I am the biggest anti dog fighting person you will ever meet. I'm just trying to get my point across about this breed. Because of a few that I have trained, a good buddy of mine purchased one as a puppy from a breeder in Arkansas. This dog is the most impressive beast you ever want to see but spends his day hanging out with a duck, it's hysterical.


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## rick smith

re: "Yes Tiago, by far. I have also witnessed too many international dog fights where they put different breeds against each, it's disgusting, I know, but I'm a federal agent and sometimes you see disgusting things. I can tell you first hand there is not another dog on the planet that even competes with the Kangal. Take all your other top power breeds, Tosa, Caucasian, all the Cntral Asian dogs, they either quit quickly or the Kangal kills them. Rottweilers and Pitbulls are done in seconds, yet these Kangals do great as family dogs. Please don't think I'm glorifying dog fighting, I am the biggest anti dog fighting person you will ever meet. I'm just trying to get my point across about this breed. Because of a few that I have trained, a good buddy of mine purchased one as a puppy from a breeder in Arkansas. This dog is the most impressive beast you ever want to see but spends his day hanging out with a duck, it's hysterical."

sounds like a perfect example of a "confident", "clear headed" dog =D>


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## Tiago Fontes

Larry Krohn said:


> Yes Tiago, by far. I have also witnessed too many international dog fights where they put different breeds against each, it's disgusting, I know, but I'm a federal agent and sometimes you see disgusting things. I can tell you first hand there is not another dog on the planet that even competes with the Kangal. Take all your other top power breeds, Tosa, Caucasian, all the Cntral Asian dogs, they either quit quickly or the Kangal kills them. Rottweilers and Pitbulls are done in seconds, yet these Kangals do great as family dogs. Please don't think I'm glorifying dog fighting, I am the biggest anti dog fighting person you will ever meet. I'm just trying to get my point across about this breed. Because of a few that I have trained, a good buddy of mine purchased one as a puppy from a breeder in Arkansas. This dog is the most impressive beast you ever want to see but spends his day hanging out with a duck, it's hysterical.


 
Let me just explain something:

Dogs bite hard what they have been bred to bite... therefore, it is wrong to say one breed has stronger bite than another...

Just because your Kangals bite hard on dogs and wolves, does not mean they would bite a decoy the same... One thing is biting an animal, another is a human...two different things.


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## Edward Weiss

Nothing against the giant herd guardians but the protection was requested for a few few small farm dogs. 
Coyotes are opportunists and not looking for a fight. 
Jagdterriers and some crossed versions are something they do not want to bump against. (vid not for everybody) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMgfL7o8niQ
Problem would be introducing adult into the pack.
Might try two pups and they would clean up any other vermin .
A fellow on this board advertised Heideterriers a bigger and more tractable breed another consideration.
Personally we have a rule around my Hacienda if they don't bother us we don't bother them.Had a few around here eating cats and and my neighbors Lahsa...
My dog caught one sent it to Coyote Valhalla and the rest moved on.


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## Brian McQuain

Edward Weiss said:


> Coyotes are opportunists and not looking for a fight.
> .


 
I've seen more than a few coyotes come out during the day and go after herding dogs, while they were moving sheep in an arena. 

Once a yote went after two ACD's working stock with people all around. The ACD's didnt do as well as I thought they would. I also have a friend who has two Vizslas that were recently jumped by two coyotes while he was walking around his yard. Fairly common occurance here. They are big and bold out here.


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## rick smith

Tiago

i think you are focusing in on only one reason ....

it is "generally" accepted that the size of the dog, and the shape of its jaw is a good predictor of bite pressure, which i interpret as : the larger the dog and the dog's head, and the wider the jaw, the higher the bite force. 

this has been tested and i am sure there are examples all over the internet...some are probably valid tests 

to get a dog to exert a FULL FORCE bite is another matter and of course depends on what is "motivating" the dog to bite in the first place, and different canine hunting styles also come into play. 
- a pack of wild dogs hunting do not hunt like a pack of lions, and a single guardian dog may not try and kill prey in the same way as a dog pack, either 

you can train motivation but you can't change physics, anatomy and hunting predation instincts. i happen to NOT believe a trained protection dog is trying to "kill prey" when it engages, but that is only my opinion 

... but that's how i look at it. 

do you see it differently ? are you saying a trained protection (herder) breed is trying to kill with a single crushing bite and that's what is making it exert more bite pressure as compared to a kangal trying to kill a coyote ?


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## Haz Othman

Hey guys thanks for all the input, Ill advise them that a group scenario would work better. I dont think they will get more then one dog though..and they will be lucky if its got what it takes but I guess we will see. The coyotes around were they are actually dont seem as brazen as what y'all seem to be dealing with down south. These little dogs have been there for years running loose and though the yotes have been spotted now and again they have never lost a dog..which is pretty amazing when you think about it.


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## Amber Scott Dyer

I have nothing to contribute here, but I want to just say that this is the most interesting thread I've read in a while :mrgreen: I've always wanted to know more about herding and working farm dogs.


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## Michael Murphy

Sarah Platts said:


> What has been your exeriences with the breed?


im half irish half turkish :smile:
dad was irish mums turkish, anyways my mum's uncle owns a farm in turkey and owns two kangals and breeds for himself and the local village. 
never herd of the dog untill i was 15 years old when i went to turkey and as we were driving up to his house in three cars two dogs came on the road and stopped us. on of the dogs was growling at my window :-o nobody got out of the car untill mum's uncle came out and told the dogs to f$#k off lol
first and last time i have ever been scared of a dog.


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## Michael Murphy

so talked to some family members in turkey that own them, apparently the breed is varying in temperment depending on where you purchase a pup from. some guys still use them for livestock guarding but others now use them for fighting. the fighting dogs apparently can have week nerves and are generally are bred for size. some fighting lines can get up to 95 cm at the shoulder but useless guard dogs apparently.


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## Ricky Mav

Edward Weiss said:


> Nothing against the giant herd guardians but the protection was requested for a few few small farm dogs.
> Coyotes are opportunists and not looking for a fight.
> Jagdterriers and some crossed versions are something they do not want to bump against. (vid not for everybody) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMgfL7o8niQ
> Problem would be introducing adult into the pack.
> Might try two pups and they would clean up any other vermin .
> A fellow on this board advertised Heideterriers a bigger and more tractable breed another consideration.
> Personally we have a rule around my Hacienda if they don't bother us we don't bother them.Had a few around here eating cats and and my neighbors Lahsa...
> My dog caught one sent it to Coyote Valhalla and the rest moved on.


Those little Jagd's are bad asses! I wonder if that Coyote was sick or injured.


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## Ben Thompson

Its the same concept as home protection the dog is a layer of protection in a long line of defense. Sometimes the dog wins sometimes the coyote wins. There are so many factors. Common sense goes along way. Don't put the cows in the woods a mile away from any people during calving season.


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## Meg O'Donovan

Ben, the coyotes in your area must be hungry. We never in 40+ years had problems with coyotes taking calves. If the calf got hiplocked during birth (and couldn't drop), then the birds might pick out their eyes, but the coyotes didn't bother them. Coyotes did take two Scottish terriers belonging to my family, lured out one at a time, with a couple of years between the incidents. That was our fault for not keeping the dogs in after dark. We had much bigger problems with people's domestic dogs that were left to run amok and end up in packs. They chased horses and stock. If we knew the dog's owner, they got one warning. In this area, not even that is required.


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## Michael Murphy

Edward Weiss said:


> Nothing against the giant herd guardians but the protection was requested for a few few small farm dogs.
> Coyotes are opportunists and not looking for a fight.
> Jagdterriers and some crossed versions are something they do not want to bump against. (vid not for everybody) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMgfL7o8niQ
> Problem would be introducing adult into the pack.
> Might try two pups and they would clean up any other vermin .
> A fellow on this board advertised Heideterriers a bigger and more tractable breed another consideration.
> Personally we have a rule around my Hacienda if they don't bother us we don't bother them.Had a few around here eating cats and and my neighbors Lahsa...
> My dog caught one sent it to Coyote Valhalla and the rest moved on.


how do jagdterriers compare to patterdales?


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## Chris Keister

Ricky Mav said:


> Those little Jagd's are bad asses! I wonder if that Coyote was sick or injured.


That video looked staged to me. The game terriers are bad ass, however a couple of small terriers stand no chance against 8-10 coyotes. When my dog got lured he was jumped by at least 7 or 8.


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## Chris Keister

Meg O'Donovan said:


> Ben, the coyotes in your area must be hungry. We never in 40+ years had problems with coyotes taking calves. If the calf got hiplocked during birth (and couldn't drop), then the birds might pick out their eyes, but the coyotes didn't bother them. Coyotes did take two Scottish terriers belonging to my family, lured out one at a time, with a couple of years between the incidents. That was our fault for not keeping the dogs in after dark. We had much bigger problems with people's domestic dogs that were left to run amok and end up in packs. They chased horses and stock. If we knew the dog's owner, they got one warning. In this area, not even that is required.


How much land and how many head? 

Our ranch was two parcels 500 and 800 acres respectively several miles apart. Averaged 75 to 125 birthing cows. Helped the neighbors out as well so during calving time were talking couple thousand acres and 500 head.

As stated before, coyotes are for the most part opportunists. The yotes much preferred the afterbirth and barn cats but they will take the opportunity of a calf if it presents itself especially when they were Larger packs. My girlfriends father was old school and the ranch was full time, sole source of income so losing any calves to predators was unacceptable. 

We always knew when a pack ran though because we would lose 1/2 the barn cat population in a matter of days.


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## rick smith

Edward
re: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMgfL7o8niQ

was that your dog and did you shoot the vid ?
if not, do you know who did ?
i have a few questions about it


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## Edward Weiss

Not my dog. No info on the vid
I have Airedales.
Out here coyotes usually less than 35 lb and my vet told me he was more worried about mange than the bites on my dog with these dust ups.


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## Katie Finlay

Edward Weiss said:


> Not my dog. No info on the vid
> I have Airedales.
> Out here coyotes usually less than 35 lb and my vet told me he was more worried about mange than the bites on my dog with these dust ups.


I wish our coyotes were that small!


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## Ben Thompson

Meg O'Donovan said:


> Ben, the coyotes in your area must be hungry. We never in 40+ years had problems with coyotes taking calves. If the calf got hiplocked during birth (and couldn't drop), then the birds might pick out their eyes, but the coyotes didn't bother them. Coyotes did take two Scottish terriers belonging to my family, lured out one at a time, with a couple of years between the incidents. That was our fault for not keeping the dogs in after dark. We had much bigger problems with people's domestic dogs that were left to run amok and end up in packs. They chased horses and stock. If we knew the dog's owner, they got one warning. In this area, not even that is required.


When I lived back east our neighbor raised holsteins and a newborn calf was eaten by coyotes. They also eat deer especially fawns. They will run adult deer into deep snow and eat them too....We had more problems with peoples dogs which were allowed to run lose back that way and probaly still are. Historically in America I don't read that much about livestock guardian dogs. Maybe they used them I don't know but I think the most common methods of killing predators was trapping, poisoning and sometimes shooting them in that order.


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## Edward Weiss

Lot of ways to fix a problem


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## Meg O'Donovan

Ben Thompson said:


> When I lived back east our neighbor raised holsteins and a newborn calf was eaten by coyotes. They also eat deer especially fawns. They will run adult deer into deep snow and eat them too....We had more problems with peoples dogs which were allowed to run lose back that way and probaly still are. Historically in America I don't read that much about livestock guardian dogs. Maybe they used them I don't know but I think the most common methods of killing predators was trapping, poisoning and sometimes shooting them in that order.


Ben, in our area, it is mostly shooting because trapping and poison can get the wrong animals. Our ranch was about the same size as yours, in a mountain valley, so pieces of land spread out. About the same number of cattle, Herefords. They calve close to home, but go out to mountain range over the summers. 
Never any livestock problems with coyotes (except for eating dogs and cats). My family's place is small compared to other ranches in the area, e.g. Douglas Lake Cattle Company, Quilchena Cattle Company, etc. I never heard anything about ranchers or farmers hunting coyote around here. We are in Indian Country and in the local indigenous cultures, the Okanagan and the Nlaka'apamux, the coyote is respected as a canny Trickster. In the mythology, there are various stories of how Coyote made the various local landforms, creation stories. 

The coyote in the video looked very small, probably just a youngster. Not swift or sharp at all. Almost looked drugged. The coyotes I see around here are bigger, probably well-fed from lots of wild game, which may also be why they don't bother people or livestock. More black bear and deer than coyotes wander through the local town. We are lucky here, as humanity has not pushed too hard on the wilderness yet. I can go five minutes from my house to see a dozen bald eagles soaring on the thermals. We still have a few grizzlies left. Take a look at how big it is, still lots of room for coyotes :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4x4lOdhJ1ow

Good place.


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## Ricky Mav

Meg O'Donovan said:


> Ben, in our area, it is mostly shooting because trapping and poison can get the wrong animals. Our ranch was about the same size as yours, in a mountain valley, so pieces of land spread out. About the same number of cattle, Herefords. They calve close to home, but go out to mountain range over the summers.
> Never any livestock problems with coyotes (except for eating dogs and cats). My family's place is small compared to other ranches in the area, e.g. Douglas Lake Cattle Company, Quilchena Cattle Company, etc. I never heard anything about ranchers or farmers hunting coyote around here. We are in Indian Country and in the local indigenous cultures, the Okanagan and the Nlaka'apamux, the coyote is respected as a canny Trickster. In the mythology, there are various stories of how Coyote made the various local landforms, creation stories.
> 
> The coyote in the video looked very small, probably just a youngster. Not swift or sharp at all. Almost looked drugged. The coyotes I see around here are bigger, probably well-fed from lots of wild game, which may also be why they don't bother people or livestock. More black bear and deer than coyotes wander through the local town. We are lucky here, as humanity has not pushed too hard on the wilderness yet. I can go five minutes from my house to see a dozen bald eagles soaring on the thermals. We still have a few grizzlies left. Take a look at how big it is, still lots of room for coyotes :
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4x4lOdhJ1ow
> 
> Good place.


That's some beautiful country! Nice video.


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## Chris Keister

Found this video interesting. This is the same behaviour I witnessed when my dog got lured. My dog chased, I let him, and 15 yards out come 6 or 7 more out of the bush. They knew I was there and I had a fire going.

These are about the size of the coyotes in my area if they have a good food supply. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqVE9qfg7yI&feature=youtube_gdata_player

If this had been me that coyote would have been disposed of real quick.


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## Meg O'Donovan

Chris Keister said:


> Found this video interesting. This is the same behaviour I witnessed when my dog got lured. My dog chased, I let him, and 15 yards out come 6 or 7 more out of the bush. They knew I was there and I had a fire going.
> 
> These are about the size of the coyotes in my area if they have a good food supply.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqVE9qfg7yI&feature=youtube_gdata_player
> 
> If this had been me that coyote would have been disposed of real quick.



Chris, thanks for posting that. It was hilarious. Did the narrator feel threatened? If he did, why would he have kept messing with the coyote? Near the end he said "This is my trailer, this is my dog," (referring to coyote as a joke). The coyote was bold; probably there had been lots of previous interaction and it was getting habituated to him. Likely on previous occasions he had fed it or left out scraps with his scent on it, because he made such a deal out of saying that he had no food. 

I would have been carrying a big stick, if I were him, just in case, and I wouldn't have been playing with it. When will people figure out that wild animals aren't tame animals? That coyote was toying with him, but I would not have trusted it not to bite.

I have a friend who worked in northern BC building roads at the Huckleberry Mine. The foxes up there used to play in a similar way with the construction workers, and those guys left food out for them too.

Maybe this is how humans got their first wild dogs....


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## Chris Keister

It would be nice to know what, if any, previous interaction there was between them. 

It does look like he's playing. I just found it interesting the similarities between this behaviour and what I witnessed when my dog was lured.

My take on coyotes is this....I understand their place in the natural balance of the environment. On the ranch that was displayed by the cycle of the barn cats. The cats kept the rat, gopher, ground squirrel population in check. Every year we would get to about 30-40 cats then the coyotes would thin them out and the cycle would repeat itself.

.I also have a level of respect for their adaptability and intelligence. That same respect allows me to dispatch of them without remorse. They will never be erraticated but they will always pose a threat to children, domestic animals, and livestock.

We only actively hunted them when the cows were dropping calves. . If they were out during the day, looked sick, or were near the house, chicken coop, etc we shot them on sight. 

I've been back in the suburbs for years now. see Coyotes often enough but have not had to dispose of one since I lived on the ranch. I still would, and they wouldn't have to give me much of a reason, cuz I will have likely saved some little girl's cat and there will be a dozen more young coyotes the following spring.


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## Ricky Mav

Meg O'Donovan said:


> Chris, thanks for posting that. It was hilarious. Did the narrator feel threatened? If he did, why would he have kept messing with the coyote? Near the end he said "This is my trailer, this is my dog," (referring to coyote as a joke). *The coyote was bold; probably there had been lots of previous interaction and it was getting habituated to him.* *Likely on previous occasions he had fed it or left out scraps with his scent on it*, because he made such a deal out of saying that he had no food.
> 
> *I would have been carrying a big stick, if I were him, just in case*, and I wouldn't have been playing with it. When will people figure out that wild animals aren't tame animals? * That coyote was toying with him*, but I would not have trusted it not to bite.
> 
> I have a friend who worked in northern BC building roads at the Huckleberry Mine. The foxes up there used to play in a similar way with the construction workers, and those guys left food out for them too.
> 
> *Maybe this is how humans got their first wild dogs...*.


Excellent points.


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## Stacy Moseley

I have to agree this is one very interesting post. As for that video I would have to agree that there was previous interactions between the narrator and the coyote. As for the original question asked. I have worked on a few farms with coyote problems and one sheep ranch with major stray dog problem. Now as stated above this couple need to look into some fencing and maybe finding some trappers or hunters to help. As far as dogs go I have only had experience with two breeds the Kangal and the Central Asian Shepherd Dog. In both cases dogs lived with their respective flocks all the time and were very impressive to watch. The CAS dogs was definitely more aloof with strangers and seem to be more independent than the kangal. Now the Kangals were just straight beast. I have never seen a more demanding presents from any dog breed. Now that being said all LGB require a serious owner who is prepared to handle this type of dog. I would honestly recommend strong fencing and purchasing a good rifle.


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## rick smith

also liked to hear all the good stuff about real LGD's that can do their job

i just can't believe these people want to invest the time money and effort required to add a good one to their property and then maintain it

it looks like they have realized that their little dogs can't have the unrestricted freedom they used to have, unless they are willing to accept a few losses here and there. looking at it first from a physical security perspective is definitely a step in the right direction and good secure fencing with some "human applied" access control applied to the little ones will eliminate most of the threat, and then they can get back to enjoying their property with a better understanding of what they are living with

the coyotes are not dumb ... my guess is they will move on and look for easier pickings


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