# submissive puppy?



## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

i have a 4 month old female gsd. everytime she meets someone new she jumps on them and urinates. she is not shy with them at all she just pees, then 5 seconds later shes trying to chew on them. she did have a problem with a bladder infection and she would be just walking around and start peeing. everytime she would get excited she would pee. she never has shown any signs of being fearful. to see if she was scared of people i had my wife hold her in the front yard and i went out the back door with a hoodie on. when i came around the corner (about 50 feet away) she went nuts barking and pulling at me. she pulled so hard she broke loose of my wife so i ran into the house. she chased me around the corner and looked all over for me with her hackles up. she barks at everything that moves and never shies away she will run at anything.

so what id like to know. does it sound like she is being submissive and if she is. will I be able to do what i want with her. i'd like to train her for personal protection or at least sch. 

as far as her breeding she is from west german lines. every male in her pedigree has a least a sch III. her mother is sch III and every other female is at least sch I.

thanks for all input Jamie


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Before you go further, has the UTI completely cleared up? Has there been a urinalysis/culture AFTER the antibiotic protocol?



e.t.a. You tried to incite fear of you in the pup?? WHY?


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

> to see if she was scared of people i had my wife hold her in the front yard and i went out the back door with a hoodie on. when i came around the corner (about 50 feet away) she went nuts barking and pulling at me. she pulled so hard she broke loose of my wife so i ran into the house. she chased me around the corner and looked all over for me with her hackles up. she barks at everything that moves and never shies away she will run at anything.


Yeah. Uh. Don't do that again.


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

i am in the process of collecting another urine sample to bring in. not a very easy thing to do on a puppy. but it will be checked in the next day.


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

wasnt trying to scare her i just wanted to see her reaction to a stranger with out me holding her on leash. i didnt threaten her just walked around the corner as neutral as i could. i will take your advise and not do it again though. thanks Jamie


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

she has been off of antibiotics for a week now. i would have had it checked sooner but we have been out of town with her. i have been giving her a little apple cider viniger since because i heard it helped urinary tract infections. she hasnt had an accident since but she still pees around other people. i should have figured out the bladder infection way before, but i just thought she was having a hard time potty training. my fault. i didnt figure it out till she peed standing up one day. thanks jamie


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

jamie lind said:


> she has been off of antibiotics for a week now. i would have had it checked sooner but we have been out of town with her. i have been giving her a little apple cider viniger since because i heard it helped urinary tract infections. she hasnt had an accident since but she still pees around other people. i should have figured out the bladder infection way before, but i just thought she was having a hard time potty training. my fault. i didnt figure it out till she peed standing up one day. thanks jamie



Unfortunately, a step that I think is important is often skipped: the re-check after the antibiotic regimen. A UTI that wasn't really wiped out can cause damage to the bladder wall, pyelonephritis, and even sepsis in the bloodstream.

So it's really good that you are re-checking.


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

jamie lind said:


> i have a 4 month old female gsd. everytime she meets someone new she jumps on them and urinates. she is not shy with them at all she just pees, then 5 seconds later shes trying to chew on them. she did have a problem with a bladder infection and she would be just walking around and start peeing. everytime she would get excited she would pee. she never has shown any signs of being fearful. to see if she was scared of people i had my wife hold her in the front yard and i went out the back door with a hoodie on. when i came around the corner (about 50 feet away) she went nuts barking and pulling at me. she pulled so hard she broke loose of my wife so i ran into the house. she chased me around the corner and looked all over for me with her hackles up. she barks at everything that moves and never shies away she will run at anything.
> 
> so what id like to know. does it sound like she is being submissive and if she is. will I be able to do what i want with her. i'd like to train her for personal protection or at least sch.
> 
> ...


Hi Jamie,

I'm far from a GSD expert (there are others on the WDF who are) but I had a GSD male puppy who did the same thing. The submissive urinating upon greeting, mostly with me. Being a Asko vd Lutter grandson, I wouldn't exactly say he was submissive ;-) His breeder who has 30+ years in the breed said this is pretty typical for a GSD puppy and he would outgrow it. He did ;-) SchH 3 before he was 2 years old! Definately not a weanie 

Rule out the UTI as Connie said, then just let her be a puppy and grow up. She's only 4 months old ;-)After the antibiotics you might want to give her some lacto bacellous (sp?) to restore some natural gut flora.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Candy Eggert said:


> After the antibiotics you might want to give her some lacto bacellous (sp?) to restore some natural gut flora.


Absolutely! 

A good source is live-culture unsweetened unflavored yogurt.


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

i feed orijen. it lists that lactobacillus sp? as an ingredient. just got a fresh pee sample for the vet for tommorrow morning. she really doesnt like to be followed by a tupperware bowl when shes trying to do her thing. thanks for all the help. Jamie


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

jamie lind said:


> i feed orijen. it lists that lactobacillus sp? as an ingredient.



That is not sufficient. In fact, it's very unlikely to have survived the kibble process unless it's added after the extrusion happens and the heat is applied. 

Maren? Do you know whether probiotics are introduced after the baking?

But anyway, it's not enough. And you will probably find that the dog loves plain live-culture yogurt.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

jamie lind said:


> ...just got a fresh pee sample for the vet for tommorrow morning. she really doesnt like to be followed by a tupperware bowl when shes trying to do her thing. thanks for all the help. Jamie


Ideally, the first pee of the morning is a good one to catch, and if you can get a clean catch, even better.

If you have no choice, then it should be refrigerated, and the time it was collected marked on it, along with whether or not it was the first one of the day.

Do you know how to get a clean catch?


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

it will be tested within 12 hours and refridgerated till then. ill try to catch a new one in the morning but she really doesnt like the tupperware under her while she does it and i'll be too tired to chase her around. im getting it staight from under her. the only way i could get it cleaner is to cathe her and i hope that is not required.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

jamie lind said:


> it will be tested within 12 hours and refridgerated till then. ill try to catch a new one in the morning but she really doesnt like the tupperware under her while she does it and i'll be too tired to chase her around. im getting it staight from under her. the only way i could get it cleaner is to cathe her and i hope that is not required.


No, it can be done. You stick the flat container under just after the stream starts. That way the bacteria around the urethra are flushed away in the stream, and the remainder contains only the bacteria actually in the urine.

Have the carrying container handy so you don't have to carry the flat one into the house and avoid spillage. (For the flat one, an aluminum pie plate is perfect.)

A terrific food treat in your other hand doesn't hurt. 

Fur future reference, you will find it very useful to have marker-trained a potty command.


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

she has also gotten yogurt since ending her treatment. thats the only way she will take the vinegar. thanks, jamie


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

ya i have to let her start peeing first otherwise she wont go. so it is mid stream.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

jamie lind said:


> she has also gotten yogurt since ending her treatment. thats the only way she will take the vinegar. thanks, jamie


Don't forget to dilute the ACV so it doesn't kill the probiotics.


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

i just used the tupperware pee is sterile right? haha


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

jamie lind said:


> i just used the tupperware pee is sterile right? haha



Yes, it is.


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

after 3 days i started to dilute it to 1 tsp in her water. i read that 2 tbsp was reccommended but after 3 days she started to get the runs. i'll staert giving her more yogurt in her food now though just to be sure.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

question: will the vinegar + yogurt kill the baccilliosos (sp?) in the yogurt? my instinct is that the acid in the vinegar will....

and then, a trick i learned years ago for catching urine: dixie cup + wire coat hanger to make a longer distance "catch-device". you can be a yard away when she/he starts peeing, and, if you're smooth, catch a good sample. takes a bit of practice cause the coat hanger's still a little "weavy", but it works really well once you get the hang of it. haha

we were all posting at the same time!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

jamie lind said:


> after 3 days i started to dilute it to 1 tsp in her water. i read that 2 tbsp was reccommended but after 3 days she started to get the runs. i'll staert giving her more yogurt in her food now though just to be sure.


Yogurt is good. Fermented dairy is much different from straight fresh dairy for dogs. I would never give (for example) cottage cheese or milk, but I give unsweetened live-culture yogurt every day.


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

also she seems to be pretty hairy on her coochie. not that ive really ever noticed on any other dog. do you think it might help to trim it to help reacuring infection? i hope my wife doesnt catch me doing it.:-o


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

jamie lind said:


> do you think it might help to trim it to help reacuring infection?


No. More likely to introduce bacteria.

JMO.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

The paper cup is a good idea, I just use a soup ladle that is flat instead of having the "cup" part at an angle to the handle. You can pick them up at most dollar stores. I have one that is ONLY for the dogs LOL Useful for boys and girls alike when getting a sample.

As far as the submission/excitement peeing, assuming it's not the UTI, I wouldn't worry about it right now. I find that if you ignore it, it usually goes away. And I haven't seen any coorelation between that and a dogs working abilities as an adult. I'm currently trialing a female in FRIII who did this as a pup, while jumping all over new people she'd also let loose with a stream, made greetings "interesting". I ignored it, other then warning people to greet her standing up (ie don't let her climb all over you LOL) and I think by 6 months she'd outgrown it, maybe a little older.


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

jamie lind said:


> i feed orijen. it lists that lactobacillus sp? as an ingredient. just got a fresh pee sample for the vet for tommorrow morning. she really doesnt like to be followed by a tupperware bowl when shes trying to do her thing. thanks for all the help. Jamie


 
Not sure which Orijen you're feeding her but the Six Fish has a very HIGH protein content and this may not be suitable for such a young puppy? Could this contribute to the urine issue? Maybe Connie can weigh in on this one ;-)


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> That is not sufficient. In fact, it's very unlikely to have survived the kibble process unless it's added after the extrusion happens and the heat is applied.
> 
> Maren? Do you know whether probiotics are introduced after the baking?
> 
> But anyway, it's not enough. And you will probably find that the dog loves plain live-culture yogurt.


Can't speak for Orijen, but here's a paper (I think maybe Natura did a study? Maybe not, not sure...) where they tested the microorganisms before and in the fecal samples and there were indeed little live critters that made it through. IAMS had similar studies done on dogs with chronic diarrhea/IBD-like issues and their probiotic supplemented food was likewise helpful in resolving the diarrhea for their low residue diets. Here's the abstract. Haven't read the whole paper yet (got another final today and one more tomorrow, I'm kinda busy at the moment! :wink: 



> *Probiotic viability study in dry dog food*
> 
> The objective of this study was t o evaluate viability of a probiotic strain of _Lactobacillus acidophilus _in a dry dog food; determine its ability to survive transit through the gastrointestinal tract and populate the colon; and assess its effects on intestinal and systemic parameters. Fifteen adult dogs were sequentially fed a dry control food for 2 weeks, the same food supplemented with > 10 9 _L acidophilus _for 4 weeks, and the control food again for 2 weeks. Fecal score was assessed daily, and fecal and blood samples were collected for enumeration of bacterial populations and measurement of hematologic variables.
> Recovery of _L acidophilus _from the supplemented food was 71% and 63% at the start and end of the study, respectively, *indicating that the bacteria were able to survive manufacture and storage*. The probiotic bacterium was detected in feces via ribotyping and RNA gene sequencing during the probiotic administration phase but not 2 weeks after cessation of administration. Administration of the probiotic-supplemented food was associated with increased numbers of fecal lactobacilli and decreased numbers of clostridial organisms. There were significant increases in RBCs, Hct, hemoglobin concentration, neutrophils, monocytes, and serum immunoglobin G concentration and reductions in RBC fragility and serum NO concentration.
> ...


But can you add more by making your own yogurt or by giving additional probiotics via other means (yogurt, Fortiflora, Culturelle, etc). Sure!


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Candy Eggert said:


> Not sure which Orijen you're feeding her but the Six Fish has a very HIGH protein content and this may not be suitable for such a young puppy? Could this contribute to the urine issue? Maybe Connie can weigh in on this one ;-)


Protein is not really an issue for pups. Caloric density is and that's why your grain free foods like Wellness Core and EVO are not recommended for large breed pups because they're very calorically dense. Ca/P ratios are important as well (lots of debate on that). Orijen reports that their 6 Fish has 4200 kcals/kg. EVO has 3852 kcals/kg and I know their veterinary nutritionists do NOT recommend EVO for large breed pups for this reason. Healthy active working adults, likely no problem, but not for pups. I'll get back to this tomorrow AFTER my stupid pharmacology and radiology finals. Ick.


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Protein is not really an issue for pups. Caloric density is and that's why your grain free foods like Wellness Core and EVO are not recommended for large breed pups because they're very calorically dense. Ca/P ratios are important as well (lots of debate on that). Orijen reports that their 6 Fish has 4200 kcals/kg. EVO has 3852 kcals/kg and I know their veterinary nutritionists do NOT recommend EVO for large breed pups for this reason. Healthy active working adults, likely no problem, but not for pups. I'll get back to this tomorrow AFTER my stupid pharmacology and radiology finals. Ick.


Thanks Maren ;-) I guess my thought process was more along the lines of the kidney's working harder to excrete the higher proteins, in a young pup. And since she has some bladder issues I was just making a stab at it.#-o 

Good luck on those finals ;-)


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

the orijen i feed is large breed puppy formula. i took the sample to the vet today. he says there is still white blood cells in it. he said it was low compared to what it was and, there was no red blood ccells. he recommended not to put her on antibiotics again. he said whatever im doing with the apple cider vinegar to keep doing it because the ph went down to 6 from 7 and he thought that was perfect for her body to handle on its own. he wants me to just keep an eye on her urination frequency and if it changes or if she starts having issues with not being able to control it (going in the house) come back with another sample. i really dont know if she is subbmissive urinating or just excited with a young bladder. i have a nephew that pees if you tickle him might be something like that. she doesnt lick alot when this happens and she doesnt appear frightened at all. most of the time she doesnt even squat. it only happens when people make a fuss about her, if they just give her a pet and ignore her it doesnt happen. if she is tired(like just waking up)it doesnt happen. it also only happens with new people not our family.


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## Tom Moorcroft (Aug 27, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Protein is not really an issue for pups. Caloric density is and that's why your grain free foods like Wellness Core and EVO are not recommended for large breed pups because they're very calorically dense. Ca/P ratios are important as well (lots of debate on that). Orijen reports that their 6 Fish has 4200 kcals/kg. EVO has 3852 kcals/kg and I know their veterinary nutritionists do NOT recommend EVO for large breed pups for this reason. Healthy active working adults, likely no problem, but not for pups.


If calories are the problem, why not just feed less of nutrient-rich, calorie dense foods, rather than nutritionally inferior foods? Do wolf pups eat eat brown rice, barley and oatmeal? Seriously, even EVO: potatoes, cottage cheese. Yeah they'll eat it, but that doesn't mean it's healthy for them. JMO

Dunkin Donuts anyone?

Too many poor pups live with people I run into in my office: They equate eating with feeling good and overfeeding their pups with loving them.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Tom Moorcroft said:


> If calories are the problem, why not just feed less of nutrient-rich, calorie dense foods, rather than nutritionally inferior foods? Do wolf pups eat eat brown rice, barley and oatmeal? Seriously, even EVO: potatoes, cottage cheese. Yeah they'll eat it, but that doesn't mean it's healthy for them. JMO



Cottage cheese isn't so much a problem in dog food. Cottage cheese is cow's milk curdled with the enzyme rennin, found in a calf's stomach. Rennin curdled milk is something a wolf or wild dog would find in varying quantities for a portion of the year. The highest ratio I can estimate would be 8% of the diet. That assumes the dog's diet consisted of entirely of calves, fawns, with full tummies and the dog ate the stomach contents first. (The second assumption is made because every dog I've have loved cottage cheese and preferred it to meat.)

The issues I may have with cottage cheese are with the processing that makes it appealing to people - adding salt, draining off the whey, mixing in cream, etc.

Yup - after the fermenting plant matter for the dog, I'm moving on to make rennin-curdled milk rather than purchasing cottage cheese. See other thread... :lol:


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Tom Moorcroft said:


> If calories are the problem, why not just feed less of nutrient-rich, calorie dense foods, rather than nutritionally inferior foods? Do wolf pups eat eat brown rice, barley and oatmeal? Seriously, even EVO: potatoes, cottage cheese. Yeah they'll eat it, but that doesn't mean it's healthy for them. JMO


Actually obligate carnivores and carnivorous omnivores do eat grains consumed in the small rodents they eat whole. All grains are not bad. In fact, some dogs do better with a relatively small amount of grains in the diet (my youngest dog being one of them). This doesn't mean that of the top 5 ingredients, one should be meat and the others are grains or grain fractions like the cheapy foods, but the raw feeding sites that go on and on about how dogs are carnivores and that grains are evil are WRONG. These people write up these articles with little or no training in biology or anatomy and then everyone reads it and takes it as gospel truth. Now, on the other hand, some dogs do better with no grains and that's okay too! Also, any kibble must use some kind of carbohydrate as a binder to glue the kibble together. Natura actually has difficulty keeping the kibbles, particularly the 7% carb EVO cat food, in one piece when you go that low on the carbs, and from what I've been told, EVO is the lowest in % carbs at 15% of the major grain free foods (just cause it's grain free doesn't mean it's low carb by the way).

The problem with just feeding less of the calorie dense food like EVO, Core, etc is that when you restrict calories just by feeding say 20-30% less, you also restrict nutrients. That's actually why some dogs (and people) end up looking and feeling not good when they are on a longer term food restriction diet because while they are decreasing their calories, they are also decreasing their intake of vitamins, minerals, protein, etc just by mass. That's no so terribly bad for an adult animal, but a growing animal who requires more protein and so on, that's not a good idea. Kind of like it's not a good idea to put a kid on a food restricted diet (i.e.-letting them eat nothing but extremely rich food, just less of it). You'd want to switch them off the extremely rich food and onto something that is less calorically dense, but still an acceptable profile for vitamins, minerals, etc for their age. Now, that doesn't mean you want to pack the less calorically dense food full of filler (which some companies do for their weight loss diets). It can still be very high quality with the desireable nutrient profile, it's just less calorically dense. Hopefully that isn't too confusing...


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Hopefully that isn't too confusing...


You know that Tom has a genius-level IQ and is a doctor, right???

Sure 'nuf!


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## Tom Moorcroft (Aug 27, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Actually obligate carnivores and carnivorous omnivores do eat grains consumed in the small rodents they eat whole. All grains are not bad.
> 
> The problem with just feeding less of the calorie dense food like EVO, Core, etc is that when you restrict calories just by feeding say 20-30% less, you also restrict nutrients.


Not suggesting all grains are bad, but it is very interesting when you think about how the grains, or renin curdled milk, got into the wolf's stomach: already spent some time in someone else's stomach. These have been, most of the time, partially digested and at very least eaten by the other animal. The wolf does not eat artificially milled grains, rather eats grains that are already within the digestive system of an animal that is designed to eat that grain, an animal that likely has many more grain specific digestive enzymes than a wolf. 

So are grains bad for dogs? Depends. Are potatoes bad for people? Depends. French fries are the cornerstone of the American diet, yet I've never found anyone who regularly eats them who comes close to being healthy.

I guess the part I'm missing is how eating less calories equals less nutrients. At least in people, the only way to do that is to eat foods that are devoid of nutrients, like french fries. There is definitely a limit to calorie restriction, but, if you're eating an appropriate diet and restricting calories, there are still plenty of nutrients. Think about the amount of nutrients in a dinner plate covered with quartered apples, about 200 kcals. The same dinner plate with about 50 M&Ms, about 200 kcals. Big difference in nutrients, not difference in calories. Seems like it should be the same in dogs.

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-does-200-calories-look-like.htm

The problem seems to be the adulteration of natural foods to create kibble, not the dogs eating them.


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

ann freier said:


> question: will the vinegar + yogurt kill the baccilliosos (sp?) in the yogurt? my instinct is that the acid in the vinegar will....
> 
> and then, a trick i learned years ago for catching urine: dixie cup + wire coat hanger to make a longer distance "catch-device". you can be a yard away when she/he starts peeing, and, if you're smooth, catch a good sample. takes a bit of practice cause the coat hanger's still a little "weavy", but it works really well once you get the hang of it. haha
> 
> we were all posting at the same time!


You people with females have to do it the hard way. My male's aim is so bad when he lifts his leg it shoots right past his head. I could just stand in front of him with a bucket, and catch it.:-k


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Tom Moorcroft said:


> Not suggesting all grains are bad, but it is very interesting when you think about how the grains, or renin curdled milk, got into the wolf's stomach: already spent some time in someone else's stomach. These have been, most of the time, partially digested and at very least eaten by the other animal. The wolf does not eat artificially milled grains, rather eats grains that are already within the digestive system of an animal that is designed to eat that grain, an animal that likely has many more grain specific digestive enzymes than a wolf.
> 
> So are grains bad for dogs? Depends. Are potatoes bad for people? Depends. French fries are the cornerstone of the American diet, yet I've never found anyone who regularly eats them who comes close to being healthy.


If grains are included in a diet, I agree that they should be whole grains and not flours or fractions. I haven't read any of the primary literature on this, but I would suspect the mechanical and chemical breakdown of the food in the GI tract by the prey item is mimicked by cooking, which actually makes sense as for many types of plant material, their nutrients are not "unlocked" until they are cooked. Dogs still have amylase made by their pancreas, so they do indeed have the ability to digest _some_ grains. Pariah dogs and scavenging wild canids would surely encounter man's carbohydrate based food scraps as well. Heck, one of my own dogs just raided the pantry this morning for my husband's fancy schmancy organic croutons. :lol: 

The key point to emphasize is that we want to keep the levels relatively low IF they are included and if they are, use whole grain ingredients when possible. If the dog does well on grain free, that's great. If they don't (and I have one of those...he has done better on low grain kibble than non-potato based grain free raw or potato based grain free kibble), then a low grain food may be better for that dog. No need to stick to idealogy if the dog is just not doing as well.  

On the no potatoes thing, how regular is regular for eating them? I eat French fries maybe once or twice a month. I love them, but I get tired of them quickly. Now, sweet potatoes wrapped up in foil, cooked over coals and enjoyed with brown sugar, cinnamon, and butter...mmmm mmm! \\/ But if you mean in dog food, they are supposedly one of the more digestible forms of carbs if I recall. But then again, if you would like to rotate through from a potato to a sweet potato to quinoa to whatever else based kibble, that's okay too. 




> I guess the part I'm missing is how eating less calories equals less nutrients. At least in people, the only way to do that is to eat foods that are devoid of nutrients, like french fries. There is definitely a limit to calorie restriction, but, if you're eating an appropriate diet and restricting calories, there are still plenty of nutrients. Think about the amount of nutrients in a dinner plate covered with quartered apples, about 200 kcals. The same dinner plate with about 50 M&Ms, about 200 kcals. Big difference in nutrients, not difference in calories. Seems like it should be the same in dogs.
> 
> http://www.wisegeek.com/what-does-200-calories-look-like.htm
> 
> The problem seems to be the adulteration of natural foods to create kibble, not the dogs eating them.


Eating less calories doesn't _have_ to mean less nutrients. As you say, a plate of apples that's 200 calories has more nutrients than a little pile of M&Ms that likewise have 200 calories and I agree with that. But it _does_ mean less nutrients if you feed your pup 3 cups of food a day, decide the pup is growing too quickly and cut it down to 2 a day. You've essentially cut the pup's intake of calories down by a third, but you've also cut his vitamins, minerals, protein, etc down by a third on an absolute basis. I'm not a human nutritionist (or a board certified veterinary nutritionist, I'll have to wait a few years for that!) and this is going to be a difficult analogy because there's not a ton of readily commerically available child diets that are energy dense but otherwise healthy, but if you were designing a diet for an overweight child because the child was on a relatively healthy diet that was meeting their RDA for nutrients, just higher in calories, it wouldn't really behoove you to say to the parents, "okay, now keep feeding the kid the same thing you're already feeding, just feed 1/3 to 1/2 less." It would be better to say, "alright, let's substitute fruits, veggies, whole grains, and lean meats for some of those calories instead of *insert high calorically dense food here*." That way, you still get your nutrients you need, just less calories. 



Konnie Hein said:


> You know that Tom has a genius-level IQ and is a doctor, right???
> 
> Sure 'nuf!


I didn't, but nutrition is not something we have all figured out either. Even the best of us! :mrgreen:


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