# Suspicous/Sharp Dogs make best PPD Dogs



## Patrick Murray

Bryan, you made this statement in another thread. I agree with you. But I was wondering if you and others here can expand on this. Thanks in advance.


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## Bryan Colletti

In my experience, I have found that truly confident and high fight dogs don't make the best or ideal PPD dogs. When a dog is so cocky and full of himself that he nevers feels threatened, he is not much use watching your back.

Suspicious, sharp dogs have a little less confidence, pehaps a little nervy. What nature has not given them in confidence, has provided to them for survival a unique skill of obsessively worrying about their immediate saftey and well being. They don't care if YOU are ok, they worry about themselves so much so, that they are forever on point, watching every change in their surroundings. Reacting to such naturally with growling, barking and hackling. As pack leaders we the human manipulate this nervousness into being a vigilant watch dog. Some dogs with this trait and still sound nerves and confident in fight drive, make ideal Street Police Dogs in very tough areas, sentry dogs at Military bases.

Imagine if you will, you are in a really bad part of town at night, if your dog fears or at least worries about the approaching person you never saw, then alerts to this oncoming situation with his or her natural body reaction, or one preferred through training scenarios, then you are now aware of situation and able to respond or be vigilant yourself if need be.

A Malinois I use for my breeding program is one of the toughest bar room fighting dogs I know of. Yet, he has a very low threat level response, wouldn't care who approached him. However, if deployed that is another story all together. In fact, any stranger can take him right out of his crate. 

So for PPD, he is a deployment dog, not a great watch your back kind of dog. The CZECH GSDs seem to be bred for and very natural with this. Though one must give great caution raising any kind of dog with natural sharp or suspicion drives. You have to be quick to relieve the puppy of the stress and simply move onto something else, as Pack leader, you checked it out, now lets go. If you stimulate or encourage this, you run a serious risk of making your dog dangerous or extremely fearful of everyone.

So dogs with a natural genetic propensity for suspicion, I raise up for kid gloves and keep my foot on it as a youngster, it will be there later when I feel the dog is mature enough to work with it confidently. I only focus on enviromental desensitizing and play drives, obedience, agility. Things that build bonding and confidence.

Bryan


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## Patrick Murray

Excellent Bryan. Thank you!


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## Ren Sauder

But wouldn't a "nervy" dog be a lot easier to cur out than a confident dog?? Sure the reaction time or alert might be a bit quicker naturally but that can be sped up on a "ballsy" dog with training. The difference would lie when the threat turns around and starts yelling at/beating the dog to try to get away. The nervy dog is a lot more likely to cur out/turn tail and run whereas the confident dog would have no problem taking it in stride (even if he has never been exposed to it) and dishing out more fight.

I'm not preaching but asking as I am still green to the world of protection dogs...


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## Ted White

Your charactarization of the Czech dogs seems to still be on target. Those behaviors are a lot more evident than in my past 2 GSDs. If there is something new in the yard, like a shovel standing up, it must be approached cautiously and inspected. 

He will be initially cautious of people, but warm to them only a bit. Tolerant and nonchalant, but not trusting. These people are not in the inner circle.

This is exactly what I was looking for in a GSD, at the time just didn't know the Czech dogs had this in them specifically.

Very interesting stuff again, Bryan.


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## Greg Long

> In my experience, I have found that truly confident and high fight dogs don't make the best or ideal PPD dogs. When a dog is so cocky and full of himself that he nevers feels threatened, he is not much use watching your back.
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> I would agree with this although why would you want a dog that never feels threatened?
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> Suspicious, sharp dogs have a little less confidence, pehaps a little nervy. What nature has not given them in confidence, has provided to them for survival a unique skill of obsessively worrying about their immediate saftey and well being. They don't care if YOU are ok, they worry about themselves so much so, that they are forever on point, watching every change in their surroundings. Reacting to such naturally with growling, barking and hackling. As pack leaders we the human manipulate this nervousness into being a vigilant watch dog. Some dogs with this trait and still sound nerves and confident in fight drive, make ideal Street Police Dogs in very tough areas, sentry dogs at Military bases.
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> Suspicious dogs and sharp dogs are just more aware of their environment. That does not mean they are nervy or lacking in confidence. If they fail to recover from something that they see as threatening then that would be a sign of weaker nerves but not the initial reaction. They should be highly aware of everything and even suspicious of certain things but they should recover quickly and be able to work and think through it.
> If they are only worried about themselves even after training then there has not been an adequate bond developed between handler and dog. At first the dog may see the threat to himself as more of an issue but with training any attack on the handler will get a reaction sometimes even a certain look at the handler. I dont even think a dog is worried about themselves at all. It is an instinctive reaction being brought out in the dog. It is not nervousness in a sound dog.
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> magine if you will, you are in a really bad part of town at night, if your dog fears or at least worries about the approaching person you never saw, then alerts to this oncoming situation with his or her natural body reaction, or one preferred through training scenarios, then you are now aware of situation and able to respond or be vigilant yourself if need be.
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> This should be a goal of anyone that is interested in PPDs. Again the dog is not worried or fearful but is displaying natural ability. The same dog could also be highly confident.
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> ois I use for my breeding program is one of the toughest bar room fighting dogs I know of. Yet, he has a very low threat level response, wouldn't care who approached him. However, if deployed that is another story all together. In fact, any stranger can take him right out of his crate.
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> Good for police and PR I guess.
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> PPD, he is a deployment dog, not a great watch your back kind of dog. The CZECH GSDs seem to be bred for and very natural with this. Though one must give great caution raising any kind of dog with natural sharp or suspicion drives. You have to be quick to relieve the puppy of the stress and simply move onto something else, as Pack leader, you checked it out, now lets go. If you stimulate or encourage this, you run a serious risk of making your dog dangerous or extremely fearful of everyone.
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> Some Czechs are like this and some arent. I see it less and less even in those lines. There are still a few though that are pretty sharp but everyone wants
> the drive these days.
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> with a natural genetic propensity for suspicion, I raise up for kid gloves and keep my foot on it as a youngster, it will be there later when I feel the dog is mature enough to work with it confidently. I only focus on enviromental desensitizing and play drives, obedience, agility. Things that build bonding and confidence.
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> I would basically agree with this as well.
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## Ted White

It does seem that the drive is what people want. I wonder what the traights are to look for this in pup selection. In my case, my Czech pup was more independent than the others. Had the biggest prey drive, I'll admit, but was OK running around. The others all were more interested in the people than maybe a rag or ball. Not sure if there's a connection there.

Now I have grown to like the independence since he's content to be by himself on the deck or even in the crate in the kitchen while we're in the kitchen also. Again, not sure if the sharpness is connected to this independence.


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## Lyn Chen

I also agree that sharpness does not mean lack of confidence.


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## Bryan Colletti

Now it gets tough for me to respond with all these new interesting replies. I will try to hit it all and stay on topic.

When describing earlier on a different thread, I had mentioned I prefer to not provide dogs that really put a hurting people. Too much experience is needed and not enough qualified handlers. I feel it is irresponsible to provide those types of dogs to average Joe's. Though I am quite aware people make a living selling these dogs.

I prefer a safer dog with a higher alert response, let the human know that something is coming, allowing the human to deal with the problem.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Now when different folks talk about Sharpness, suspicion and defense, we all tend to get caught up in symantics games. I never said Sharp dogs are not worthy of doing very couragous things in fight drive. Have you ever heard a Soldier say "Fear is a good thing, keeps you on your toes". Well, I happen to feel a sharper, nervier, suspicous dog has an edge over lesser types, in protection based scenarios. Now, any way you slice the pie, it is born out of fear, the body reacts to fear with a wide range of responses. Some sharp dogs as I mentioned before are very confident, and make great Police Dogs. But, understand it is a stressful life for these dogs. 

Let's not make the mistake of me describing a sharp dog as coward. 

I have had many litters of all strong working dogs over the years. Sharpness purposely bred at times, or at least acknowledged and accepted. You can see the pups that carry this very early on. Four weeks barking and growling.

What I watch for is the pups that run towards what they are barking at, and those that retreat, those that wait for others to go first. I have had a wide range of pups to dogs, that span the confidence and sharpness spectrum. So I agree with all of you, that sharpness doesn't mean cowardice always. Nervy dogs can be great PPD dogs, just not always deployment dogs. Mostly, suspicion and sharpness I firmly believe is a response to fear, though doesn't mean a particular dog isn't up to challenging that fear.

Now, here is my biggest thing I want to add here. Anyone who trains with me know's I prefer to only train what the genetics are giving. You can certainly train suspicion into a dog, make a dog nervy etc... I would rather not do that to the dog, it's unreliable and unfair to the dog. Meaning, I prefer not to alter dogs natural genetic messages to situations. The pups choses it's path with me, and I adjust. I don't like to create things, but rather form what is there already. Fascinating really, working with a new puppy every six months or so, or several pups at the same. Each one is different and requires different of me. 

Now I have probably confused everyone))

Bryan


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## Tim Martens

Bryan Colletti said:


> Now I have probably confused everyone))
> 
> Bryan


not at all. i think you've done a masterful job explaining yourself. i don't think you and greg are saying different things. you two are basically agreeing. i agree with you, and it frequently happens, that semantics get in the way. definitions, phrases, drives, etc get in the way sometimes.

i know we got off to a rough start with the whole SWAT dog thing, but i find myself agreeing with most if not all of your posts. you've got a fan on the west coast.


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## Jerry Lyda

Bryan, you did a super job with your explanation.


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## Patrick Murray

Great posts guys! 

Bryan, I like your philosophy of going with what the dog's got and not trying to make it something it's not.


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## Ted White

Very interesting thread. Patrick, thanks for asking. Bryan, thanks for answering


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## Justin Eimer

Bryan~
I think that it was a very good explanation as well... and yes I think that semantics plays a role here. The reason that I say this, is because I was ready to argue when I read your first post on this thread. Not so much after the second one. I agree with most of what you had to say and I guess that we can agree to disagree on that in which I do not. For now, let's just throw this Marine Corps expression out there- and I think that you and everyone else can appreciate and agree with it.

 "Courage is not the absence of fear... It's the ability to overcome fear." :smile: 

Not sure who said it, but it is a rule to live by. That expression applies to those of the two and four legged persuasion. Take care. ~Justin;-)


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## Johan Dekinder

Great & very interesting topic!


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## Lindsay Janes

Johan Dekinder said:


> Great & very interesting topic!


 I agree! I used to think that police handlers are better off having confident dogs, but that is not always the case.


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## Bryan Colletti

*Got me thinking "Real World" philosopy*

I'm always amazed working with a great Sport decoy with tons of experience. They are given dogs of all types of drives and confidence levels, yet only one goal, Titles in the sport. Where in Real World applications, the dog either has it or doesn't, there are no tricks. When I was mentioning how I train only what the genetics give you. This is what I was referring to. I have met "Full of themselves" trainers from over the sea and here in the states, who put all the weight of the world on the training and handler. In sport, you have many tricks to try to get a dog biting confidentally. Especially, in the sports with decoy movements are predictable. Hence my amazement and admiration for trainers and decoys that form the weaker dogs to titles, I don't snub my nose at those dogs. Not every dog is born to see greatness, just like humans. 

However, in a breeding program focused on Working SAR and Police Dogs, There are no band aids a decoy or trainer can use to get a over Real World stress. So for me the path is always chosen by the pup. I can't make the genetics tell me what I want to see. If I have a pup that is limited in the drives we desire for work. I wil then focus on the drives that bring HIM/HER some success and maybe hope for a change in attitude at a later date, but certainly not pushing. 

We were talking about the stress of being suspicious and sharp. This is the hardest temperament for a trainer to deal with in my opinion. Because of the effect the dogs bring to their own environment. When I walk a puppy like this in public, and at four or five months old, they are hackling or barking at folks, well people tend to avoid us. Wouldn't you know, my dog changed the dynamic of our environment by chasing people away. It's empowering to the dog, and also problematic. Because I need to get this dog over this hump. In a sport world, I can through repitition of excercizes and constant success, get him there. Yet, in real world, each new and changing scenery brings new stresses to the sharp dog. Each day is a start from zero for some handlers and their dogs. These dogs I raise need a thoughtful trainer, a village too, I use my clients and group members to act as strangers. If I cant a sharp to focus on me and the tasks I give them, they make ideal Police Dogs. If I can't succeed in this, then a confident sharp dog, may not focus on finding drugs with poeple walking around him. May bite a student doing a locker search.

In sport: I believe many of you know of the sharp dog that bit the European judge who is now really pissed These dogs fascinate me, due the amount of information their minds take in from everywhere. I normally do not like a dog that is into me too much. But, here is a situation I feel it is ok. I like a dog to ask me questions.

Bryan "Bored and no kids home"


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## Ted White

*Re: Got me thinking "Real World" philosopy*

Hate to let this thread die. Any other comments from anyone?


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## Justin Eimer

*Re: Got me thinking "Real World" philosopy*

Jimmy crack corn and I don't care..... LOL


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## Ted White

what does that mean?


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## Pauline Michels

It's an old song......... I'm sure it's in response to "any other comments from anyone".


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## Ted White

Aha... glad I asked


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## Ren Sauder

I might have just missed it but I dont think my question was answered...wouldn't these dogs be easier to cur out??? Or is that nothing more than a matter of training?


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## Ted White

Ren, you're thinking you'd remove these dogs from the breeding pool? What is cur out? you mean cull?


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## Connie Sutherland

Ted White said:


> What is cur out?...



Quit in a fight, or go into avoidance.


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## Ted White

I see. Thanks, never heard that term. Good question from Ren


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## Kadi Thingvall

One thing I haven't seen mention yet is the role of a personal protection dog. For the majority of people, the dogs role is 98% deterrant and only 2% actual physical altercation. Yes, I made those numbers up but you could say 95/5, or 90/10, whatever. The vast majority of people I know with a PP dog have never had to use it to even alert on command (vs alerting on their own) on someone, much less actually bite. Just the dog walking next to them, appearing well trained, confident, and very aware of their surroundings (that alert, up on their toes type of look) is usually all the person needs, the bad guy will move on to easier pickings. 

So yes, for the average owner I do think a more sharp/suspicious dog makes a better PP dog then the super confident, high threshold, don't really see much of a threat in anything type of dog. Because that more sharp/suspicious dog is going to alert a lot faster, and make a much better threat display much quicker, generally avoiding the need to go any further.


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## Ted White

nice commentary Kadi


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## Johan Dekinder

Kadi,

You're right; but in my eyes a decent PPD is a dog that also does the job when the owner isn't there - we're not only talking about eventual agression in the streets.. 
A dog that protects your car, your home, your warehouse, whatever .. when the owner isn't there, that dog deserves the title of decent PPD (imo of course).


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## Kadi Thingvall

Johan,

Although I understand where you are coming from, I disagree. To me a dog that protects property when the owner isn't there, is fulfilling the job of a guard dog. A personal protection dog is supposed to protect my person. I have insurance to protect my property. I'd rather my dog not get injured/killed in the course of protecting my TV set. 

However, I do agree a good PP dog is usually going to have the personality/temperament to protect it's territory when the owner is not present. But I don't think it neccessarily needs to have the training that goes with being a good guard dog to qualify as a PPD. And there are dogs that make great guard dogs, who can't function as a PPD (not safe in public). But there are also PPD's that IMO are adequate at best guard dogs, because they need the backup of the owner, or the direction of the owner. 

Note: By training to be a good guard dog I mean things like understanding how not to get suckered up to a fence, or through a door, etc where the dog can be locked out or harmed while the bad guy is still safe. Or realizing ALL intruders are the enemy, vs waiting for the owner to tell them who is a friend and who isn't, when the person approaching is acting friendly.


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## Johan Dekinder

Kadi,

Yep, maybe I'll have to agree with you & we need to make a difference between ppd and guard dog as you call it. Thing is .. where do we draw the line? Ex. : when I take my dog with me, get out of the car to do some shopping, I always tell my dog 'watch out matey' & he knows what to do..
Is he a guard dog or is he a ppd?

Being self employed I must say that sometimes I play with the idea of getting a Kangal, Boerboel, Fila.. as my next dog. It seems it is in their nature to protect & guard family/home, no training, just let the dog does what it's supposed to do? Maybe a bit off topic ..


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## Connie Sutherland

Aren't the job descriptions of guard dogs and protection dogs very different, since one works alone, with no input about how and when to escalate?


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## Ted White

Guard and protection seem distinct and different functions, and some have said could be the same dog. Is that the case? They could be the same dog?


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## Kadi Thingvall

Ted White said:


> Guard and protection seem distinct and different functions, and some have said could be the same dog. Is that the case? They could be the same dog?


Yes, they can be the same dog, just like the same dog can do both Sch and FR, or sport and police work, or herding and protection work, etc. Dogs are versatile creatures, if the dog has the right mentality and drives, it could be trained to perform both functions. It's just that a truly effective guard dog needs to be taught some skills you wouldn't necessarily need to teach your PP dog, and vice versa. Not that the skills are incompatible, just not needed. I can teach my Schutzhund dog a guard of object, or my French Ring dog to track, it's not going to cause issues with their main purpose, it's just not neccessary unless I want the dog to perform in both venues. In the case of a guard dog you need a dog with a more suspicious personality, and a straight PP dog can have more of a trusting personality since the owner is there to tell the dog when to alert. But a suspicious dog can also make a good PP dog so ...


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## Ted White

Makes sense. I like Bryan's perspective of a suspicious dog having an advantage as a PPD. Also curious about Ren's question if that same dog might be more easily cur-ed


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## Howard Gaines III

I have not seen many shy-sharp dogs that I would want to do PP training on. They show the front but don't have the mental ability to resolve conflict. It's like a 12 year old boy talking trash but he doesn't have the physical and mental ability to back it up. Bite work takes mental strength to go against the "bad guy" and some dogs can be made to look good in prey. When the time comes to work in defense they go into avoidance or become fear biters. I like a dog that is more defensive than prey focused. My male Bouvier is VERY defensive, my female is very prey driven. Both are working lines and both are very different.


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## Jerry Lyda

Howard that's why I like a balanced dog. One that can work in prey but he don't play when the time comes to get ruff. One that will step it up when the play has gone and the fight begins.


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## Howard Gaines III

Well Grasshopper, nothing wrong with balance. The problem that I've seen is with show lines dogs and namely the German Shepherd. I have owned several then went to a Giant Schnauzer. When Cody had to be put down with cancer, I switched to the Bouviers. Check out my Rock pics on my web site, www.gainesfarmandkennels.com 

I imported him with the help of Guardefense Police Dogs in The Netherlands. Jan and Theo were VERY helpful in getting me what I wanted. No junk here. To my knowledge, I am the only one in Delaware with "two big Bouvs." :mrgreen:


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## Jerry Lyda

I've seen that problem with GSD too out of American showlines. I've seen the same propblem with backyard bred GSD's. Now if you do your homework with the working lines GSD's the chances are you won't find as many with that problem. I stand fast on genetics in any breed. That trate for that type of work has to be there. You can do it through defense but that dog would be a better guard dog or fence dog. A good PPD has to want to do it and that's through prey/play.


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## Howard Gaines III

We had a guy come out with a white GSD and it had no nerve. The dog was shy sharp and could be made to bite in prey but when worked in defense, it run for the hills. Any test or attack on the handler would cause this dog to bolt! Genetics are the foundation for the beast, training and environment are close #2. Thank God I've got crazy Bouvs.


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