# Inox Vom Haus Ming as studdog



## milder batmusen

Hello you all 

as I have written before me and my females breeders had a disagreement on witch male to use 
I have told him some males that I wanted to use one off them was Lubeck Vom der Mahlermeister but he didn't agree.

We have now agreed on we want to breed to his father Inox 
I have heard from severel people that he should be a good dog and producer.

We are very tense on what is going to come out of this breeding if we are to get in touch with Inox OWNER.

If anyone know or have seen Inox in real life tell me both good and bad things.

or if someone has a daugther or son from tell me about him. 

I dont know much about his drives Inox other what I can se in that one video


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## Erik Berg

Why didn´t he like lubeck?


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## Britney Pelletier

Inox has produced a lot of VERY nice dogs, including Lubeck.. why NOT go with him? :mrgreen:

What are the lines on your female?


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## milder batmusen

Erik Berg said:


> Why didn´t he like lubeck?


He say's that far ou in Lubecks pedigree there are showlines :?



Britney Pelletier said:


> Inox has produced a lot of VERY nice dogs, including Lubeck.. why NOT go with him? :mrgreen:
> 
> I have heard of only Lubeck and a black male on their website.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What are the lines on your female?


http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=636201


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## mike suttle

milder batmusen said:


> He say's that far ou in Lubecks pedigree there are showlines :?
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=636201


 He is right, Lubeck does have a few old show line dogs in his pedigree, this was a big hang up for me when I looked at Lubecks pedigree as well. But after seeing the dog and working him several times, and seeing his offspring I decided to use him anyway. I am very glad I did. The first Lubeck litter that I had was very nice and I will use him again for sure. I have bought a few Lubeck sons to sell to US Customs and Border Patrol and so far everyone that I have showed them they have bought. I bought a male GSD on my last trip to Holland that was really an exceptional dog, it was also a Lubeck son, however I had to return him to the owner there because the degree of possesiveness and aggression over the metal pipe (and any other toy) I knew would make him very difficult to sell here. For the most part Lubeck produces very social dogs with extreme drives in the work, and super hunt and retrieve which is most important to me.
I will say that Lubeck is not the hardest police dog I have ever seen, but his hunt and retrieve drive is amoung the best I have ever seen, and his speed and drive for everything he does is excellent. He is a medium sized dog with a large square head and heavy bones, overall I really like that dog a lot.
Having said that....you can usually never go wrong by breeding the father of many very good dogs. Inox produced Lubeck and many sons like him, so that is always a good option.


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## milder batmusen

mike suttle said:


> He is right, Lubeck does have a few old show line dogs in his pedigree, this was a big hang up for me when I looked at Lubecks pedigree as well. But after seeing the dog and working him several times, and seeing his offspring I decided to use him anyway. I am very glad I did. The first Lubeck litter that I had was very nice and I will use him again for sure. I have bought a few Lubeck sons to sell to US Customs and Border Patrol and so far everyone that I have showed them they have bought. I bought a male GSD on my last trip to Holland that was really an exceptional dog, it was also a Lubeck son, however I had to return him to the owner there because the degree of possesiveness and aggression over the metal pipe (and any other toy) I knew would make him very difficult to sell here.* For the most part Lubeck produces very social dogs with extreme drives in the work, and super hunt and retrieve which is most important to me.*I will say that Lubeck is not the hardest police dog I have ever seen, *but his hunt and retrieve drive is amoung the best I have ever seen, and his speed and drive for everything he does is excellent. He is a medium sized dog with a large square head and heavy bones, overall I really like that dog a lot.**Having said that....you can usually never go wrong by breeding the father of many very good dogs. Inox produced Lubeck and many sons like him, so that is always a good option.*





Thanks Mile I really think that this could be a good breeding \\/my female sounds alot like she and Lubeck has the same strong drives in hunt and prey, she is not a hard dog .

But what kind of dog is Inox ??? a prey dog as Lubeck his son or a more harder dog does anyone know.

I must say that I like Lubeck alot to and maybe I can have a pup from him in a few years if he is still alive.

Someone in this forum or another told me that its good to breed to the father of Lubeck because he has produces him8-[

I like both Lubeck and Inox alot and think that they are not only good working dogs but they look good to have nice heads:razz:


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## milder batmusen

mike suttle said:


> *He is right, Lubeck does have a few old show line dogs in his pedigree, this was a big hang up for me when I looked at Lubecks pedigree as well*. But after seeing the dog and working him several times, and seeing his offspring I decided to use him anyway. I am very glad I did. The first Lubeck litter that I had was very nice and I will use him again for sure. I have bought a few Lubeck sons to sell to US Customs and Border Patrol and so far everyone that I have showed them they have bought. I bought a male GSD on my last trip to Holland that was really an exceptional dog, it was also a Lubeck son, however I had to return him to the owner there because the degree of possesiveness and aggression over the metal pipe (and any other toy) I knew would make him very difficult to sell here. For the most part Lubeck produces very social dogs with extreme drives in the work, and super hunt and retrieve which is most important to me.
> I will say that Lubeck is not the hardest police dog I have ever seen, but his hunt and retrieve drive is amoung the best I have ever seen, and his speed and drive for everything he does is excellent. He is a medium sized dog with a large square head and heavy bones, overall I really like that dog a lot.
> Having said that....you can usually never go wrong by breeding the father of many very good dogs. Inox produced Lubeck and many sons like him, so that is always a good option.


I saw it to when I looked at his pedigree,but I didn't tell the breeder about it, he noticed it anyway,
but it did not scare me because I do know that some showlines does have good working abilitys


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

I think Inox was a really good dog and was not bred as much as he should have been. Lubeck is ok and i wish he didnt have those showlines in his pedigree honestly. If that is a concern for you too there are so many other options or just go with inox


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I am pretty sure that the people that bred the showlines into Lubecks pedigree know a hell of a lot more about what they were doing than anyone on this thread trying to say that they were wrong.

There were some "pure D" sons of bitches in the showlines that were used.

Gotta remember that those guys produced Lubeck, and no one here has produced anything close. LOL

I like the idea of going to the father.


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## will fernandez

About 12 years ago there was a showline GSD that got all the KNPV titles including the speurhond as well as SCH III and FH 1 and FH 2. Thinks his name was Spike Van Louwerhoeve. Saw a couple of his puppies. I think a couple went on to become PSD's.


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## Steve Estrada

I bred a Bastian v Kolkeltal Dau./Tom leefdaalhof Gdau. to Lubeck they are 11mos. and very happy with the temperaments and drive/hunt instinct, very balanced and I shipped her to him. All have very nice looks & like everyone else I considered the showline but in the outcome no big deal. I'd say breed to a strong female or you might get over the top prey drive. I assure you they are very vocal  I considered Inox but liked Lubeck for overall dog.


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## Jeff Wright

That You Tube Video of the terrific hit on the suitman by Lubeck tells me a lot about the dog.
I wouldn't sweat the conformation dogs generations back.
I have a KNPV friend looking for a nice pup out of either Lubeck or his Father Inox.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Dogs like lubeck wonder how true those statements about the mother being more important or whatever in the outcome of a dog's temperament. I want to assume that a lot of the drive and hardness is coming from the top part of his pedigree. We never know


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## Adi Ibrahimbegovic

If you want to use Inox Vom Haus Ming, I'd hurry up, if I were you...

The dog was born in 2001, I believe, and he isn't getting any younger.

I just looked at his pedigree again and the mother effer is LOADED with good genetics like a rock star from mars with a tiger DNA on a warlock tour...


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: 
Dogs like lubeck wonder how true those statements about the mother being more important or whatever in the outcome of a dog's temperament. I want to assume that a lot of the drive and hardness is coming from the top part of his pedigree. We never know

Sure you do, just most dogs that are bred are not what I consider true stud dogs. To me, they produce themselves period. Bitch be dammed.


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## milder batmusen

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> I think Inox was a really good dog and was not bred as much as he should have been. Lubeck is ok and i wish he didnt have those showlines in his pedigree honestly.* If that is a concern for you too there are so many other options* or just go with inox


If you have some options let me know she is due to be breed in the next 4 weeks I think she is due to be in heat very soon 

It was not a concearn for me that Lubeck has showlines in his pedigree because I like everything about him his looks and his ability to work.



Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I am pretty sure that the people that bred the showlines into Lubecks pedigree know a hell of a lot more about what they were doing than anyone on this thread trying to say that they were wrong.
> 
> There were some "pure D" sons of bitches in the showlines that were used.
> 
> Gotta remember that those guys produced Lubeck, and no one here has produced anything close. LOL
> 
> *I like the idea of going to the father.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> Thanks Jeff you know whos advice I took


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## milder batmusen

Adi Ibrahimbegovic said:


> *If you want to use Inox Vom Haus Ming, I'd hurry up, if I were you...*
> The dog was born in 2001, I believe, and he isn't getting any younger.
> 
> *I just looked at his pedigree again and the mother effer is LOADED with good genetics like a rock star from mars with a tiger DNA on a warlock tour*...


Yes she is gonna get in heat in the next couple of weaks so its very soon\\/


can you explain:lol:


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## milder batmusen

Steve Estrada said:


> I bred a Bastian v Kolkeltal Dau./Tom leefdaalhof Gdau. to Lubeck they are 11mos. and very happy with the temperaments and drive/hunt instinct, very balanced and I shipped her to him. All have very nice looks & like everyone else I considered the showline but in the outcome no big deal. I'd say breed to a strong female or you might get over the top prey drive. I assure you they are very vocal *
> 
> I like both dogs :lol:
> I have heard that Lubeck are more social than Inox dont know if its true:neutral:
> 
> *
> 
> 
> Jeff Wright said:
> 
> 
> 
> That You Tube Video of the terrific hit on the suitman by Lubeck tells me a lot about the dog.
> I wouldn't sweat the conformation dogs generations back.
> *I have a KNPV friend looking for a nice pup out of either Lubeck or his Father Inox*.
> 
> 
> 
> I like Lubeck alot but my breeder does not want to use him only because of the showlines,personally it does not matter to me,bacause it is very far behind in the lines
Click to expand...


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Unless your breeder is producing better dogs than Lubeck, I would not listen, and do what I want.


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## milder batmusen

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> *I think Inox was a really good dog and was not bred as much as he should have been*. Lubeck is ok and i wish he didnt have those showlines in his pedigree honestly. If that is a concern for you too there are so many other options or just go with inox


Yes he is not known in Scandinavia Inox but why did Max vom Tiekerhook get more breeding than Inox was he better does anyone know ??? 
I liked Max to sorry he died


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## milder batmusen

Steve Estrada said:


> I bred a Bastian v Kolkeltal Dau./Tom leefdaalhof Gdau. to Lubeck they are 11mos. and very happy with the temperaments and drive/hunt instinct, very balanced and I shipped her to him. All have very nice looks & like everyone else I considered the showline but in the outcome no big deal. *I'd say breed to a strong female or you might get over the top prey drive. I assure you they are very vocal  I considered Inox but liked Lubeck for overall dog.*




My female is very highly driven in her prey and hunt drives much more than you usually see in the gsd,she is not a hard dog:-\".


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## Adi Ibrahimbegovic

hard to explain if you don't live in USA and watch Charlie Sheen train wreck on TV here... it was meant as a compliment.

it was meant as a compliment. everything in Inox pedigree speaks - thoughtful, world class blood breeding. 

Plus, getting a GSD to KNPV ph2, which is really a dutch shepherd turf with good scores also speaks volumes.

It is pretty rare, not unheard of and not THAT rare, but rare enough that a GSD has a good career in KNPV that is should be noticed.

I have followed Inox for a while and I would gladly own a pup out of him.



milder batmusen said:


> can you explain:lol:


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## milder batmusen

Adi Ibrahimbegovic said:


> hard to explain if you don't live in USA and watch Charlie Sheen train wreck on TV here... it was meant as a compliment.
> 
> it was meant as a compliment. everything in Inox pedigree speaks - thoughtful, world class blood breeding.
> 
> *Plus, getting a GSD to KNPV ph2, which is really a dutch shepherd turf with good scores also speaks volumes.
> 
> It is pretty rare, not unheard of and not THAT rare, but rare enough that a GSD has a good career in KNPV that is should be noticed.* I have followed Inox for a while and I would gladly own a pup out of him.


can you tell me why the gsd cannot keep up with the malis and dutchies in the KNPV programme andless on the PH-2 :-k

is it drives they lack or hardness or both


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## Erik Berg

What other good dogs have inox produced besides lubeck, what is it you heard about inox that makes you want to use him? Another intressting choice could be q v haus shiho, the last son of orry v haus antverpa still breeding, located in sweden and have a bunch of impressive dogs after him in europe, there´s many of his offspring on youtube for example. Seems to produce the very high preydrive I remember you wanted


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## milder batmusen

Erik Berg said:


> What other good dogs have inox produced besides lubeck, what is it you heard about inox that makes you want to use him? Another intressting choice could be q v haus shiho, the last son of orry v haus antverpa still breeding, located in sweden and have a bunch of impressive dogs after him in europe, there´s many of his offspring on youtube for example. Seems to produce the very high preydrive I remember you wanted


I have heard that he is a good producer like Max van tiekerhook.
may hust look back in the posts cant remember it all.

I know Q and like him to but I heard from them that have used him that he has bad sperm and there is a good opprtunity that the female goes emty,yes I know he is located in sweden, some friends of mine had a litter of him in 2010 there where I believe only 1 or 2 pups and they told me they thought is maybe was his last breeding


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## brad robert

Ok inox is a great dog and his son is very nice as well but id give my left one to breed to the son of orry that line has been so phenominal.


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## Jeff Wright

"can you tell me why the gsd cannot keep up with the malis and dutchies in the KNPV programme andless on the PH-2














"

Several things have gone into the GSD not being common in the KNPV in the past.
First of all it is German. Years ago and probably up until recently there was a negative in using a German breed especially when you had Boviers,Dutchies and Mals that were home grown.
Second it was more expensive because of the pedigree registrations etc.
The KNPV was Blue Collar club and there was and to a certain extent today no reason to pay more for a GSD when you can find a great dog for half the price.
I believe now that a younger generation of breeders are specifically breeding for dogs that can compete with Malinois that we will see the GSD used more often


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## Steve Estrada

Here's what I suggest. Talk (email) Jan Rekers, Lubecks owner http://www.mahlermeister.nl/ Jan is the ultimate gentleman and he will give you an honest opinion. Mike Suttle can verify this as Jan & Lubeck visited him leaving some sperm behind. I don't know what it takes to get some but Mike can tell you and you don't have to ship to Netherlands. Mike I hope I didn't throw you under the bus on this. Mike is also a gentleman giving me alot of time on the phone talking dogs.


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## Gerry Grimwood

I have a question, why is it when people start discussing GSD's it always sounds more like folklore than fact ?

There are few examples given and mostly seems like you need to know the secret handshake or some silly shit like that.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

PM me and I will tell you the secret handshake ! ! ! !


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## Adi Ibrahimbegovic

From a casual google search...

Seems to me this fella Lubeck is getting laid a lot just fine in the netherlands...

http://www.working-dog.eu/zucht_ansehen.php?Rasse=0&land=0&searchterm=Mahler&Submit=Wurf+suchen


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## milder batmusen

Steve Estrada said:


> Here's what I suggest. Talk (email) Jan Rekers, Lubecks owner http://www.mahlermeister.nl/ Jan is the ultimate gentleman and he will give you an honest opinion. Mike Suttle can verify this as Jan & Lubeck visited him leaving some sperm behind. I don't know what it takes to get some but Mike can tell you and you don't have to ship to Netherlands. Mike I hope I didn't throw you under the bus on this. Mike is also a gentleman giving me alot of time on the phone talking dogs.


I emailed Jan last year and he seemed very polite I must say,and I would really like to Lubeck to,but my breeder told me no because of the showlines in his pedigree,that is why I told him if we could use Inox istead

I am very picky about a studdog,dont just wanna use what everybody else is using,and I would like som more driven dogs,it does not matter for me if Lubeck has the showlines in his pedigree,and I want to keep a male pup for my self in this litter as the first Inox son in Denmark or Sweden as the pups are going to be in Sweden.:mrgreen:

I would have loved to use Lubeck,but maybe I will get the chance some day he is a young dog,


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

milder batmusen said:


> If you have some options let me know she is due to be breed in the next 4 weeks I think she is due to be in heat very soon
> 
> It was not a concearn for me that Lubeck has showlines in his pedigree because I like everything about him his looks and his ability to work.
> 
> 
> 
> Jeff Oehlsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am pretty sure that the people that bred the showlines into Lubecks pedigree know a hell of a lot more about what they were doing than anyone on this thread trying to say that they were wrong.
> 
> There were some "pure D" sons of bitches in the showlines that were used.
> 
> Gotta remember that those guys produced Lubeck, and no one here has produced anything close. LOL
> 
> *I like the idea of going to the father.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> Thanks Jeff you know whos advice I took
> 
> 
> 
> There was a thread by Stefan Schaub a couple of weeks ago, you can take a look at some of the dogs mentioned.
> I can only remember these ones for now
> 
> Leon von der staatsmacht(has progeny in KNPV)
> 
> Stuka vom Enckhausen(has a son that's in the german military as a patrol dog)
> 
> Erri z blatenskeho zamku
> 
> Ike von der mohnwiese
> 
> Eliot von prevent
> 
> Sam Beit Haboxer Mehagiva
> 
> Branco vom banholz(not popular but i like his puppies)
> 
> Opal von der roderburg
> 
> You should talk to someone like Nate harves or Sue Dicero, they'll give you better information. You can also look at the studs used at eurosportk9.
> 
> About Max van tiekerhook, i have heard conflicting info about him so no comment for now.
Click to expand...


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Forgot to add the vikar kennels, very good dogs there too.


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## milder batmusen

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> milder batmusen said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you have some options let me know she is due to be breed in the next 4 weeks I think she is due to be in heat very soon
> 
> It was not a concearn for me that Lubeck has showlines in his pedigree because I like everything about him his looks and his ability to work.
> 
> 
> 
> There was a thread by Stefan Schaub a couple of weeks ago, you can take a look at some of the dogs mentioned.
> I can only remember these ones for now
> 
> Leon von der staatsmacht(has progeny in KNPV)
> 
> Stuka vom Enckhausen(has a son that's in the german military as a patrol dog)
> 
> Erri z blatenskeho zamku
> 
> Ike von der mohnwiese
> 
> Eliot von prevent
> 
> *Sam Beit Haboxer Mehagiva*Branco vom banholz(not popular but i like his puppies)
> 
> Opal von der roderburg
> 
> You should talk to someone like Nate harves or Sue Dicero, they'll give you better information. You can also look at the studs used at eurosportk9.
> 
> About Max van tiekerhook, i have heard conflicting info about him so no comment for now.
> 
> 
> 
> I like Sam alot to have not seen the czeck dog yet,
> I like to the kennel vikar dogs,
> 
> They had one on their website tha name is Tax Od Policie I like him alot:mrgreen::mrgreen:
Click to expand...


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## milder batmusen

I like Erri to and Leon and larry von der staatsmacht


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## Steve Estrada

How about in your own area Otto Bygsø has Svogerslevs O'Brian







of http://www.kennelklintemarken.dk/wss/ five times competing (6th & 2nd) in Police Championship '09 was vice sieger and produced Police sieger 2010 plus a number of working police dogs. I wrote an interview with him for Police K-9 magazine on the kennel. Now this dog is a patrol dog, drug & search. So you have all the drives, prey, hunt, fight and produces (proven). Police dogs have a tough qualification in Denmark...


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## Jeff Oehlsen

So much of what you are talking about is training, not the dog. I couldn't figure out that website, so I didn't see the dog working.


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## milder batmusen

Steve Estrada said:


> How about in your own area Otto Bygsø has Svogerslevs O'Brian
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> of http://www.kennelklintemarken.dk/wss/ five times competing (6th & 2nd) in Police Championship '09 was vice sieger and produced Police sieger 2010 plus a number of working police dogs. I wrote an interview with him for Police K-9 magazine on the kennel. Now this dog is a patrol dog, drug & search. So you have all the drives, prey, hunt, fight and produces (proven). Police dogs have a tough qualification in Denmark...


I know the kennel,but I dont like the dog,

I dont like many danish kennels because they dont know much about lines and what they think is good here has to do with IPO mostly.
The criteria in Denmark is not that hard sorry but it does not mean that they are any good.

and they are not critical when breeding,they mostly breed to anything that has some good points in IPO.

ofcaurse not all kennels :wink:


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## Brian Batchelder

"Lines" in German Shepherds are a bit of a joke.

How many times have you heard such-and-such dog coming from X lines, because "X" is one grandparent. One. This GSD cult is something else. 

Let's be honest. As long as there exists this undercurrent of *genetic purity,* German-specific ideas of requisite *esthetics*, and *Schutzhund-*oriented performance standards, the GSD is always going to play second fiddle in any given venue. The only criteria here related to performance is the sport which, as we know, has very simple mechanics and a disproportionate value placed on keeping a dog in a chronic state of mania in order to make it appear...happy?.

Its only hope are the standards found outside of Germany. But you're still left with the vanity of the buyers wanting to be certain that it's still a true "German Shepherd" according to a breed registry.

So, good luck with that.


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## Gillian Schuler

Hi Brian,

How come you are so knowledgeable about the German Shepherd?

Do you live in Germany? How many GSDs have you owned?

Mike Suttle:

You mentioned the possessiveness of the GSDs being a problem to sell them?

In my limited experience of the GSDs, there is possessiveness but this is controllable and not a sport or service dog issue??

Show dog lines in Working Line Dogs - mostly not a problem, as often used for a reason, and if not often, absolutely no problem.

I am not a breeder, but I've heard a lot of silly remarks on here.

If you want a good GSD, there is every chance of findng one in Germany, Switzerland, Austria, etc.

When I think of all the "good" (I cannot vouch for this) GSDs shipped over to the USA in the last 30 years, I just wonder what you did with them.


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## Sandra King

> Its only hope are the standards found outside of Germany. But you're still left with the vanity of the buyers wanting to be certain that it's still a true "German Shepherd" according to a breed registry.


Like the American _German _Shepherd? RRRIGHT!


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## Brian Batchelder

The "working line" people can't shake that last vestige of conformation; the purely paper standards related to "structure", "bone", "pigment", etc. 

And they pick their favorite single anscestor in the pedigree and call that the "lines" from which their dog comes.

And THEN they quote Stephanitz about how character and performance is everything.

Ridiculous.


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## Brian Batchelder

Gillian Schuler said:


> When I think of all the "good" (I cannot vouch for this) GSDs shipped over to the USA in the last 30 years, I just wonder what you did with them.


Me personally? 

Not a thing. In fact, I plan to avoid them like the plague.

My background is agriculture. Knowing how little time it takes to breed livestock to a given standard (laying, meat marbling etc), I have to laugh at the *100 year clustermess* the German Shepherd has been.

It would appear every country AROUND the German speaking ones have their own crisp vistions of what perfomance and objective standards mean. _And they don't include a nagging conformation requirement to hold them back._

"Bone", "pigment". Listen to yourselves. Seriously. And what's with the A-frame? Grammar school kids could do that.


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## Gillian Schuler

Brian,

You didn't even answer my question, so I actually find your answer ridiculous. Sorry, but it reads as though a 12 year old could have written it. I'm still no the wiser as to what you mean.


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## Gillian Schuler

I've just seen your last post. By vistions, I assume you mean visions - what have visions to do with breeding?

And as for conformation, nearly all the German bred dogs in the last few years have straight backs, have no hip displaysia and have good elbows.

What are you actually trying to get across to us??


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## Brian Batchelder

This isn't about me, Gillian. Keep the personal stuff out of this. We're talking about abstract matters related to animals. 

Repeat after me: I'm not my pet.


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## Gillian Schuler

I'm not being personal, I'm just trying to find out where you are coming from - none of your posts indicate that you know anything about breeding, let alone the breeding of GSDs.


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## Brian Batchelder

Gillian Schuler said:


> I've just seen your last post. By vistions, I assume you mean visions - what have visions to do with breeding?


A goal. A big picture. Not technical hang-ups related to genetic "purity". Because one can't just know about breeding, they have to know about breeding GERMAN SHEPHERDS. You all treat this breed like it's a completely different species. 



> And as for conformation, nearly all the German bred dogs in the last few years have straight backs, have no hip displaysia and have good elbows.


For one thing, the absolouteness of your statement is hogwash. Besides, that's on paper. Tight hips on an x-ray tell you nothing about performance. It's an indirect index that the dog doesn't display lameness. But can it jump?? Right...that's what the A-frame is for. Ha!

Also, the dogs bred "in the last few years" appear to be wound-up like a clock to maintain that ever-so-important unflinching "happiness" (i.e. anxiety) throughout their obedience. It's easier to breed for mania than to train it. 

How could anyone possibly dispute this?


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## Gillian Schuler

You still haven't answered my initial questions, or can't you?

I wrote you a reply but it disappeared as I pressed "submit".

Maybe it's good so. I honestly do not think that a discussion with you about the GSDs will enlighten me! You have no concrete arguments, are convinced the GSD is "useless" so I say keep your comments and dream further!


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## Erik Berg

milder batmusen said:


> I have heard that he is a good producer like Max van tiekerhook.
> may hust look back in the posts cant remember it all.
> 
> I know Q and like him to but I heard from them that have used him that he has bad sperm and there is a good opprtunity that the female goes emty,yes I know he is located in sweden, some friends of mine had a litter of him in 2010 there where I believe only 1 or 2 pups and they told me they thought is maybe was his last breeding


Don´t know about bad sperm or not, but a breeder that is planning to use lubeck later this year recently repeated the same combination with Q for the third time, so they obviously was happy with his previous litters. But being 11 years this might be his last breeding, think he had 8 litters in sweden and some in the rest of europe. Just asking because Q seems to be a more evaluated stud than Inox. I tried to find some off inox progeny on video but besides lubeck and a SCH 1 dog I didn´t find any. Q on the other hand there was a bunch off nice SCH-dogs to be found even if he haven´t had so many litters either what I´m aware of.

Some off Qs offspring in various countries, looking above average I think,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtsdoNkH6qk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M50XHnv0sjg&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/user/Skyddskurser#p/u/4/VwsepzgfXTY


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## milder batmusen

Brian Batchelder said:


> "Lines" in German Shepherds are a bit of a joke.
> 
> How many times have you heard such-and-such dog coming from X lines, because "X" is one grandparent. One. This GSD cult is something else.
> 
> Let's be honest. As long as there exists this undercurrent of *genetic purity,* German-specific ideas of requisite *esthetics*, and *Schutzhund-*oriented performance standards, the GSD is always going to play second fiddle in any given venue. The only criteria here related to performance is the sport which, as we know, has very simple mechanics and a disproportionate value placed on keeping a dog in a chronic state of mania in order to make it appear...happy?.
> 
> Its only hope are the standards found outside of Germany. But you're still left with the vanity of the buyers wanting to be certain that it's still a true "German Shepherd" according to a breed registry.
> 
> So, good luck with that.


thanks alot ;-)

Your probaly right, That is a reason that I would like to try a give something else to Scandinavia. I hope that it works:-\"


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## milder batmusen

Erik Berg said:


> Don´t know about bad sperm or not, but a breeder that is planning to use lubeck later this year recently repeated *the same combination with Q for the third time, so they obviously was happy with his previous litters*. But being 11 years this might be his last breeding, think he had 8 litters in sweden and some in the rest of europe. Just asking because Q seems to be a more evaluated stud than Inox. I tried to find some off inox progeny on video but besides lubeck and a SCH 1 dog I didn´t find any. Q on the other hand there was a bunch off nice SCH-dogs to be found even if he haven´t had so many litters either what I´m aware of.
> 
> Some off Qs offspring in various countries, looking above average I think,
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtsdoNkH6qk
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M50XHnv0sjg&feature=related
> http://www.youtube.com/user/Skyddskurser#p/u/4/VwsepzgfXTY


could this be kennel Brigaden ???

I like their breedings:smile:


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## Brian Batchelder

Gillian Schuler said:


> You still haven't answered my initial questions, or can't you?
> 
> I wrote you a reply but it disappeared as I pressed "submit".
> 
> Maybe it's good so. I honestly do not think that a discussion with you about the GSDs will enlighten me! You have no concrete arguments, are convinced the GSD is "useless" so I say keep your comments and dream further!


If we're talking about German Shepherds being produced in German speaking countries (in particular), then we're talking about an unsustainable situation wherein the sport has not evolved with better and more precise training concepts. People have found clever ways around the old problems. Thing is, the old problems represented an index of character traits which maybe people have forgotten about.

The response by those in charge of Schutzhund? Just keep increasing the need for perfection in the the utterly useless ecoutrements such as prancing and eye contact. What the hell? How about they just add some inherently more difficult exercises to the program instead? 

Haven't you noticed that german shepherds have been bred to be obnoxiously vocal and "barky". The old time problem of having a dog who wasn't inclined to bark....that wasn't so much a problem. Not really. That's traditionally been one sign (of several) of a strong and confident dog. 

In the spirt of having dogs which are generally easier to train in Schutzhund (specifically), we got a lot of "strong" barkers with nothing behind it. But hey...at least we don't lose as many points in the gosh darn bark-and-hold.

The future of the German Shepherd is not in Germany. Sad but true.


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## Gillian Schuler

I agree with you that some German breeders are breeding the easy to train dogs with no fierce back-up but this is not true of all breeders.

If you say Germany is finished as the fatherland of the GSD, in which country do you find the GSD that you are imagining?


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## milder batmusen

Gillian Schuler said:


> I agree with you that some German breeders are breeding the easy to train dogs with no fierce back-up but this is not true of all breeders.
> 
> *If you say Germany is finished as the fatherland of the GSD, in which country do you find the GSD that you are imagining?*




I'm curious toO

I think that its not just about the country ,but what the breeders and what they bring to the breed, and what the critiria for breeding males and females.


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## Brian Batchelder

Germany is in love with Schutzhund. That's the problem. No real jumps, exercises rewarded for maintaining "control" exclusively "in drive". I understand there used to be a bit more to it??

The burden is always on the breeder (anywhere) to have a knoweldge of dogs far beyond scores, but that burden is placed so much more severe when the venue tells you less about the dog (objectively).

The other popular venues can tell you a bit more through things like:

Repetitive jumps. What kind of shape is a stud dog in at 5 years old after a few years of *real *jumping?
Stop attacks. Just how much will the dog melt under *real *control? I.e. when you need the dog to abruptly change gears? 

I can't imagine I'm saying anything new here. And frankly, it doesn't seem like Schutzhund would have to be fundamentally different. Just altered.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: The burden is always on the breeder (anywhere) to have a knoweldge of dogs far beyond scores, but that burden is placed so much more severe when the venue tells you less about the dog (objectively).

Wow.

You have said what I have been trying to point out on this forum for years in just a few posts. I commend you for that. 

I showed two dogs doing the OG and one was a snarling teeth baring dog and the other just did the work. Everyone liked the trained response of the teeth baring dog better.

I am in the very early stages of trying to create the dog you are talking about. In 5 years maybe I send you a pup, and you can tell me if I am ****ing up or not. 

It is scary to hear what has been in my head for years come out in someone else's voice, and with clearer wording.


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## Brian Batchelder

Those old timey videos showed German Shepherds doing retrieves over a palisade. Then some surprise attack out of a blind. More stuff with gunfire too. What the heck was wrong with that? Too many wash-outs? Thought that was kinda the idea.

They could add a challenging stop attack to all that, and then things might be back on track.

See? Not that different, historically appropriate, and plenty more challenging for all involved. It would be a healthy cleansing.


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## Adi Ibrahimbegovic

That's kinda true.

I do remember watching old schutzhund videos from I dunno, 1950s or so, and they did have many more similarities with KNPV than today (today it seems it does not have any).



Brian Batchelder said:


> Those old timey videos showed German Shepherds doing retrieves over a palisade. Then some surprise attack out of a blind. More stuff with gunfire too. What the heck was wrong with that? Too many wash-outs? Thought that was kinda the idea.
> 
> They could add a challenging stop attack to all that, and then things might be back on track.
> 
> See? Not that different, historically appropriate, and plenty more challenging for all involved. It would be a healthy cleansing.


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## Gillian Schuler

Quote The burden is always on the breeder (anywhere) to have a knoweldge of dogs far beyond scores, but that burden is placed so much more severe when the venue tells you less about the dog (objectively). Unquote

I and a number of other people on the forum have maintained this point of view. I can't honestly see how your statement warrants special commendation.

There are breeders in Germany who fall into this category. If you could read German, you would realise that, not only the breeders, but handlers as well, do not regard the Schutzhund trials as a thorough test of the dogs and are not interested in producing "good scoring" dogs.

I agree that Schutzhund wouldn't need to be "re-done" but altered, and I honestly think that with the next revision it will be even more "diluted". It's no longer called "Schutzhund" but "VPG" - another way in which to draw the wool over people's eyes.

Some of the things you say are true - I dislike generalisations though!


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## mike suttle

Gillian Schuler said:


> Mike Suttle:
> 
> You mentioned the possessiveness of the GSDs being a problem to sell them?
> 
> In my limited experience of the GSDs, there is possessiveness but this is controllable and not a sport or service dog issue??
> 
> Show dog lines in Working Line Dogs - mostly not a problem, as often used for a reason, and if not often, absolutely no problem.


I am pretty sure you misread my post about that. I was only talking about that ONE GSD that I had to return for being too possesive and dominant over his metal pipe. 99% of the ones that we test are not strong or possesive enough over it, but this one was just way too strong over it and I know from experience that I get those types of dogs returned far too often, so I did not bring him back over here.


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## Gillian Schuler

Now I see the light!!

Thanks


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## Fokke Krottje

*hi ,

i have seeing these 2 dogs in the training /trials .
It,s very important to see dogs personal for an objective opinion.
I can asure you that both dogs are real exelent gsd.
Special inox is one of my gsd favorites.

For breeding / combinations : Most important is the ( work ) quality of the female and her bloodline

greetz,

fokke krottje
*


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## milder batmusen

Fokke Krottje said:


> *hi ,
> 
> i have seeing these 2 dogs in the training /trials .
> It,s very important to see dogs personal for an objective opinion.
> I can asure you that both dogs are real exelent gsd.
> Special inox is one of my gsd favorites.
> 
> For breeding / combinations : Most important is the ( work ) quality of the female and her bloodline
> 
> greetz,
> 
> fokke krottje
> *


Who is the other one you have sen other than Inox:?:

What do you like about Inox:?:


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## Jeff Oehlsen

You know, by the time you come around to breeding this bitch, she will be unable to take, due to old age.

I also do not understand why the breeder has any say at all ?? Did you get the dog for free ?? Hurry up and breed to the dog so I can see what he produces.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Brian Batchelder said:


> If we're talking about German Shepherds being produced in German speaking countries (in particular), then we're talking about an unsustainable situation wherein the sport has not evolved with better and more precise training concepts. People have found clever ways around the old problems. Thing is, the old problems represented an index of character traits which maybe people have forgotten about.
> 
> The response by those in charge of Schutzhund? Just keep increasing the need for perfection in the the utterly useless ecoutrements such as prancing and eye contact. What the hell? How about they just add some inherently more difficult exercises to the program instead?
> 
> Haven't you noticed that german shepherds have been bred to be obnoxiously vocal and "barky". The old time problem of having a dog who wasn't inclined to bark....that wasn't so much a problem. Not really. That's traditionally been one sign (of several) of a strong and confident dog.
> 
> In the spirt of having dogs which are generally easier to train in Schutzhund (specifically), we got a lot of "strong" barkers with nothing behind it. But hey...at least we don't lose as many points in the gosh darn bark-and-hold.
> 
> The future of the German Shepherd is not in Germany. Sad but true.


I saw this at a seminar recently. Strong puppies with a lot of eye and focus and gauging for the strike. Their goal became making them bark and frantic lunging. If you've ever been held by a dog, they don't bark. Its a fixed cold stare and even the dumbest person knows they had better not move. Back to the look of something and the B & H which makes no sense to me in terms of what a strong dog does in a true guard situation.

Also, interesting what Fokke says regarding the strength of the bitch and the bitch line which is something I look for but most people want to work males. 

Terrasita


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## ann schnerre

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I saw this at a seminar recently. Strong puppies with a lot of eye and focus and gauging for the strike. Their goal became making them bark and frantic lunging. If you've ever been held by a dog, they don't bark. Its a fixed cold stare and even the dumbest person knows they had better not move. Back to the look of something and the B & H which makes no sense to me in terms of what a strong dog does in a true guard situation.
> 
> Also, interesting what Fokke says regarding the strength of the bitch and the bitch line which is something I look for but most people want to work males.
> 
> Terrasita


best dog i EVER had was a bitch--they can bring "attitude" that males don't. i love my boys, but i hope to have another great bitch before i die, lol.

re: B&H, the "B" is way overrated--the guard, with or with out a bark, it's seriousness, should be the criteria. but hey--i think Sch should change a lot of stuff (a call-off would be GREAT, but then those darn showlines that go pee instead of engaging the decoy for a bite would REALLY be screwed...) 

OT, as far as Inox/Lubeck goes, i know nothing. living where i do in the US, i don't think there're any close offspring to them, at least not that i've heard of..

@ milder: do you and your "breeder" have a partnership on your bitch? it's the only reason i can think of that s/he has any say as to what dog you breed to....


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## Fokke Krottje

milder batmusen said:


> Who is the other one you have sen other than Inox:?:
> 
> What do you like about Inox:?:[/QUOTE
> 
> *HI MILDER BATMUSEN ,*
> 
> *AM I RIGHT ? WE ARE TALKING ABOUT INOX AND LUBECK.*
> *THESE 2 DOGS ARE REAL EXELENT IN THE KNPV.*
> *IN THESE DOG DAYS , FROM AN HANDFULL IN KNPV, MOST COMPLETE DSD*
> *AND I HAVE SEEING THIS DOGS PERSONAL WORKING IN THE KNPV. DICIPLINES.*
> *AND I KNOW THE BOTH TRAINERS /OWNERS.*
> *I CAND GIVE YOU THE NAMES AND ADRESSES.*
> *ALSO YOU CAN FIND THIS UNDER WWW.BLOEDLIJNEN.NL*
> *LOOK AND CLICK UNDER: DEKREUEN . DUITSE HERDER*
> *AGAIN : MY BELIEVE AS TRAINER AND BREEDER IS , THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT .*
> 
> *i DON'T KNOW IF THE OWNERS HAVE FROZEN SPERM OF THESE DOGS.*
> *DON'T WAST YOUR TIME , LIFE TIME OF REAL WORKING DOGS GOES QUICK .*
> *SPECAL INOX IS IN THE OLD DAYS NOW.*
> *AND AS BREEDER YOU ONLY SUCCEED WITHIN PROOVEN OFSPRING .*
> 
> *FROM MY WEBSITE WWW.FOKROHOF.NL*
> *YOU CAN GO VIA THE LINKS TO MANY WEBSITES WITH LOT OF INFORMATION ABOUT THE KNPV AND OTHER WORKING DICIPLINES.*
> *AND CHECK THE BOTTEM LEVEL INFORMATION FOR MAKE AN GOOD OPINION/DECISION.*
> 
> *GREETZ,*
> *FOKKE KROTTJE*


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## milder batmusen

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> You know, by the time you come around to breeding this bitch, she will be unable to take, due to old age.
> 
> *I also do not understand why the breeder has any say at all ?? Did you get the dog for free ?? Hurry up and breed to the dog so I can see what he produces.*




We will bred her soon she is due to come in heat in the next couple of weeks,should it be its almost 6 months ago she was last in heat,soon soon:wink:

No I bought the dog for full price so she is mine:mrgreen:


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## milder batmusen

ann schnerre said:


> best dog i EVER had was a bitch--they can bring "attitude" that males don't. i love my boys, but i hope to have another great bitch before i die, lol.
> 
> re: B&H, the "B" is way overrated--the guard, with or with out a bark, it's seriousness, should be the criteria. but hey--i think Sch should change a lot of stuff (a call-off would be GREAT, but then those darn showlines that go pee instead of engaging the decoy for a bite would REALLY be screwed...)
> 
> OT, as far as Inox/Lubeck goes, i know nothing. living where i do in the US, i don't think there're any close offspring to them, at least not that i've heard of..
> 
> @ milder: *do you and your "breeder" have a partnership on your bitch? it's the only reason i can think of that s/he has any say as to what dog you breed to....*




The reason that he has something to say it that the pups is going to be registreret in his kennel name because I dont have a kennel.

no we do not have a partnership.

I told him a long time ago that I thought that this female has alot of these drive that we rarely see in the gsd anymore
exstreme prey dog is she and hunting drives and she is very healthy to good hips and elbows and the back is alright to.

I have never seen Lubeck but I would think she is alot like him in prey and hunt drive.
she is not a hard dog though. But we just havent agreed on a male for breeding I want something like her with the exstreme drive and working abilitys he wants average. I cant write on the forum witch dogs he want to bred


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## milder batmusen

ann schnerre said:


> best dog i EVER had was a bitch--they can bring "attitude" that males don't. i love my boys, but i hope to have another great bitch before i die, lol.
> 
> re: B&H, the "B" is way overrated--the guard, with or with out a bark, it's seriousness, should be the criteria. but hey--i think Sch should change a lot of stuff (a call-off would be GREAT, but then those darn showlines that go pee instead of engaging the decoy for a bite would REALLY be screwed...)
> 
> OT, as far as Inox/Lubeck goes, i know nothing. living where i do in the US, i don't think there're any close offspring to them, at least not that i've heard of..
> 
> @ milder: do you and your "breeder" have a partnership on your bitch? it's the only reason i can think of that s/he has any say as to what dog you breed to....





Fokke Krottje said:


> milder batmusen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Who is the other one you have sen other than Inox:?:
> 
> What do you like about Inox:?:[/QUOTE
> 
> *HI MILDER BATMUSEN ,*
> 
> *AM I RIGHT ? WE ARE TALKING ABOUT INOX AND LUBECK.*
> *THESE 2 DOGS ARE REAL EXELENT IN THE KNPV.*
> *IN THESE DOG DAYS , FROM AN HANDFULL IN KNPV, MOST COMPLETE DSD*
> *AND I HAVE SEEING THIS DOGS PERSONAL WORKING IN THE KNPV. DICIPLINES.*
> *AND I KNOW THE BOTH TRAINERS /OWNERS.*
> *I CAND GIVE YOU THE NAMES AND ADRESSES.*
> *ALSO YOU CAN FIND THIS UNDER WWW.BLOEDLIJNEN.NL*
> *LOOK AND CLICK UNDER: DEKREUEN . DUITSE HERDER*
> *AGAIN : MY BELIEVE AS TRAINER AND BREEDER IS , THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT .*
> 
> *i DON'T KNOW IF THE OWNERS HAVE FROZEN SPERM OF THESE DOGS.*
> *DON'T WAST YOUR TIME , LIFE TIME OF REAL WORKING DOGS GOES QUICK .*
> *SPECAL INOX IS IN THE OLD DAYS NOW.*
> *AND AS BREEDER YOU ONLY SUCCEED WITHIN PROOVEN OFSPRING .*
> 
> *FROM MY WEBSITE WWW.FOKROHOF.NL*
> *YOU CAN GO VIA THE LINKS TO MANY WEBSITES WITH LOT OF INFORMATION ABOUT THE KNPV AND OTHER WORKING DICIPLINES.*
> *AND CHECK THE BOTTEM LEVEL INFORMATION FOR MAKE AN GOOD OPINION/DECISION.*
> 
> *GREETZ,*
> *FOKKE KROTTJE*
> 
> 
> 
> Yes You are right theseare the two dogs I wanted to bred her to
> 
> I wanted Lubeck he rejected this male because of the showlines in his pedigree,witch I think does not matter:mrgreen:
> 
> Thanks I will take a look
Click to expand...


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