# Law Suit against Jenn Ruzsa..please read



## Jessy Bains (Oct 31, 2008)

I will be putting together a law suit against Jenn Ruzsa due to her 9 month old Dutch Sheperd disfiguring me. Yes I was wearing a suit, but this is just not right


----------



## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

I really hope you are joking! Ouch!


----------



## Chad Byerly (Jun 24, 2008)

:lol: 
Nice one! 

Good dog. :-\" :-D


----------



## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

I didn't know Dutchies could do tattoo work!


----------



## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Chris Michalek said:


> I didn't know Dutchies could do tattoo work!


Get with the program, Chris. Branding and cutting are so yesterday's news when it comes to scarification as body art. Now it's all about the working dog bite.


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Ehmmm? Ain't seeing something special? That's just normal for a decoy....

;-)


----------



## Jessy Bains (Oct 31, 2008)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Ehmmm? Ain't seeing something special? That's just normal for a decoy....
> 
> ;-)


Hi Selena. Not as normal as it would be for you since we don't have nearly the strong dogs as you have over there  I'm just having fun with Jenn, the pup is actually a son of your Wibo. Very nice pup  Big fan of your program


----------



## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

...and only 9 months old....wait til he gets older Jessy.....LOL


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Jessy Bains said:


> Hi Selena. Not as normal as it would be for you since we don't have nearly the strong dogs as you have over there  I'm just having fun with Jenn, the pup is actually a son of your Wibo. Very nice pup  Big fan of your program


Jessy, you can see in the topic "trainingpics of last sunday" photo's of "dad" and some halfbrothers. 

How is the behaviour towards the handler?

regards,
Dick&Selena


----------



## Jessy Bains (Oct 31, 2008)

Selena, not seen any agression to handler so far. But not a whole lot has been done with him to put him in situations yet. So far a pretty pleasant pup. Yes I saw those pictures, VERY nice... gorgeous dogs and wicked bites.


----------



## Jenn Schoonbrood (Oct 31, 2008)

Thanks for the compliments, all. I'm really happy with him, and can't wait to start handling him myself.



Selena van Leeuwen said:


> How is the behaviour towards the handler?


Selena, while Calvin hasn't demonstrated any handler aggression whatsoever, neither has he been pushed by the handler at all. When we brought him in, I specifically requested that he have no obedience done. I wanted the work to focus solely on bite development and getting him onto the suit for two reasons:

1. My resources here for developing a pup the way I want him developed in bitework are limited. My money was better spent with training time spent on bitework.

2. I have a specific direction I want to go with my obedience, and I wanted Calvin to be a clean slate. I requested that nothing be done with him, not even an out.

I suppose it's possible when I start working him here myself (and demanding more of him) that handler aggression will surface.


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Can be, but isn't a 100% garantee he will do it ;-) 
What is Calvin's mother, I suppose he was bred by Gerard Hoek?

You should have fun, later this year with 2 Wibo siblings around :mrgreen:


----------



## Jenn Schoonbrood (Oct 31, 2008)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> What is Calvin's mother, I suppose he was bred by Gerard Hoek?
> 
> You should have fun, later this year with 2 Wibo siblings around :mrgreen:


I never got confirmation which of Gerard Hoek's females he's out of, but yes he was bred by Gerard's kennel. A Goya daughter I believe (?) I gave up trying to get pedigree information! 

I look forward to comparing Calvin to Mike's Wibo son and seeing what of Calvin was contributed by Wibo, and what was contributed by the dam.


----------



## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

Jenn,
Why do you think handler aggression will surface?


----------



## Jenn Schoonbrood (Oct 31, 2008)

Al Curbow said:


> Why do you think handler aggression will surface?


Al, I don't necessarily believe so, and in fact quite the contrary. My obedience training methods are centered around clear communication without conflict, and it's my honest belief that a lot of handler aggression is frustration because of lack of understanding on the dog's part.

However, I've been told time and time again that attempting to train a dog like him purely motivationally is setting myself up for failure, and I've been urged to consider compulsion while the dog is young. Because I'd really like to accomplish certain goals with this dog (including developing the intensity the lines are known for, while adhering to motivational philosophy) I've not heeded such advice thus far. :-\"

My statement was meant to acknowledge that there's the chance, I suppose, that handler aggression could surface as the obedience becomes more demanding. Wibo is known to be slightly cantankerous. I don't believe that it will, but I don't want to appear naive to the possibility.


----------



## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Jenn , 

In what kind of situation are they advising compulsion ? 

I'm all for motivation . The more I can teach that way the better . But there comes a time with all the PSD's I've worked (some sooner then others) with that compulsion or corrections are needed . In my experiance it's been handlers with some sort of prior dog training experiance that hold off on compulsion or corrections for too long and thier dog has been taught well what is expected of him but the dog just being disobediant. Sometimes there comes a time to either fish or cut bait .

With you it sounds like your still teaching your dog and he's young yet . What is their reasoning for using compulsion ? Are they saying motivational training is going to cause some problems down the line ? I'm trying to understand why some trainers want to push that type of training so soon and with such young dogs .


----------



## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Hey Jenn, do you have any recent pictures of Calvin ? 

I looked at the younger ones of him that you posted but somehow didn't make the connection between you and Mike till today #-o


----------



## Jenn Schoonbrood (Oct 31, 2008)

Jim Nash said:


> In what kind of situation are they advising compulsion ?


Oh, it's no specific situation - just a difference in training philosophies. Jessy can speak much better to their training philosophies than I can, but suffice to say from my end that I have very specific goals to work with this pup a certain way. It's a step I'd like to take in my own development as a trainer. 

<<But there comes a time with all the PSD's I've worked (some sooner then others) with that compulsion or corrections are needed.>>

In my experience this has been the case as well. However, this is precisely what I'm attempting to disprove to myself as a trainer. I come from a compulsive background. I've done it all from Koehler through e-collar escape training. The last few years, I've really developed my skills as a motivational trainer with breeds that, well, AREN'T Dutch Shepherds. And I've really liked what I accomplished and saw in those dogs.

With Calvin, my goal is very specifically to try to achieve results using ONLY marker and Balabanov/Ellis, in a dog from KNPV lines. Idiotic, perhaps. But I will do no damage to my dog with motivational methods (I may pull out all of my OWN hair, haha) and at any point I can resign to compulsive methods if necessary.

I've crossed dogs over from compulsive methods to motivational methods. I've also worked dogs in 100% motivational from birth (Border Collies, Kelpies). With Calvin, I specifically wanted a clean slate.

<<In my experiance it's been handlers with some sort of prior dog training experiance that hold off on compulsion or corrections for too long and thier dog has been taught well what is expected of him but the dog just being disobediant.>>

"Too long" is, in my opinion, subjective. Because I've got a background in compulsive training, it's extremely easy for me to put an e-collar on a dog to proof disobedience. However, in giving myself this "safety net" of compulsion to fall back on, I've been able to push the motivational training phase out longer and longer. I've still not achieved 100% positive in a Dutch Shepherd or Malinois. I have achieved it in other breeds.

In training the way I have been recently (motivationally, then falling back on compulsive) I've realized that often what is interpreted by us as "disobedience" is really just lack of understanding. Are some dogs willfully disobedient? Perhaps. But it is my personal belief that a FRACTION of dogs that handlers believe are disobedient are actually disobedient. Most just don't know what they're supposed to be doing - and to be honest, what some trainers achieve with dogs with unclear, conflictory, compulsive methods is truly a testament to how truly adaptable and moldable dogs are.

<<What is their reasoning for using compulsion ? Are they saying motivational training is going to cause some problems down the line ? I'm trying to understand why some trainers want to push that type of training so soon and with such young dogs .>>

No, no, don't get me wrong. These guys are easily some of the finest trainers I've ever met. It's just that, ordinarily, when you leave a dog with someone for 5+ months on a board and train, that typically comes with obedience. I requested none. No obedience whatsoever. Not even a sit. Not even an out. My point was that if Calvin was predisposed to handler aggression because of his lines, he wouldn't have had an opportunity to display it yet because of the way he's being handled at my request.

Jessy's club's methods are fair and effective. I just wanted a dog that had nothing but bite development done, for the reasons I stated. Sorry for any misunderstanding.


----------



## Julie Blanding (Mar 12, 2008)

Jenn: Just a question. How has your puppy been able to train in bite work for 9 months without outing?
Seems like that would be tricky.

Thanks 
Julie


----------



## Jenn Schoonbrood (Oct 31, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Hey Jenn, do you have any recent pictures of Calvin ?


Hi Gerry,

I just put some into my gallery.


----------



## Jenn Schoonbrood (Oct 31, 2008)

Julie Blanding said:


> Jenn: Just a question. How has your puppy been able to train in bite work for 9 months without outing?
> Seems like that would be tricky.
> 
> Thanks
> Julie


Hi Julie. Jessy can attest that he and I discussed this one at length! I am set on attempting to develop an out without any conflict at all. I didn't want him corrected, choked, or flanked off the bite. I didn't want him to associate his out command with pain, loss of the bite, or frustration of any kind. My priority has always been getting a clean slate of a dog off the plane. Therefore, we determined that the best way to achieve that (and still get the dog off the suit and kenneled up each night so the decoy can go in for supper, haha) was to agitate him while he was holding, and then take him away from the item when he dropped it.

Jessy can expand on it more if he would like, since he's got more hands-on with Calvin at this point than I do.


----------



## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Jenn, I will tell you a strange compulsion situation that happened with my Robbie sired female. As you know Robbie is from van Leeuwen's kennel.

I spent a whole freezing winter standing out in front of Petco working on her dog aggression. There is lots of dog traffic there. I had some success using virtually no compulsion.

Yesterday was our first nice day above 50 degrees. I took her downtown for the first time since October. Downtown was packed. It seemed like the whole town was there. The was plenty of dog traffic.

As my female improved over the months, she would stay relatively call but she always hackled and usually growled.

One dog came by and she got a little out of hand. I told her "no" and calmly lifted her front paws off the ground for about 6-7 seconds. I was sick of playing games.

This is suddenly a changed dog. She was perfect with other dogs the rest of yesterday. I took her outside Petco twice today. It sounds unbelievable but she is suddenly totally calm with no more hackles up. It's kind of unsettling but this is like a different dog.

It's like a light bulb went on for her. :-D


----------



## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Jenn Ruzsa said:


> Hi Gerry,
> 
> I just put some into my gallery.


He's about the same size as mine :smile:


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> One dog came by and she got a little out of hand. I told her "no" and calmly lifted her front paws off the ground for about 6-7 seconds. I was sick of playing games.
> 
> This is suddenly a changed dog. She was perfect with other dogs the rest of yesterday. I took her outside Petco twice today. It sounds unbelievable but she is suddenly totally calm with no more hackles up. It's kind of unsettling but this is like a different dog.
> 
> It's like a light bulb went on for her. :-D


Excellent we have been using this for some time now. Nothing personal, no anger just a unpleasant occurance for a unwanted behavior. Done properly leaves no conflict with the handler.


----------



## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

Jessy Bains said:


> I will be putting together a law suit against Jenn Ruzsa due to her 9 month old Dutch Sheperd disfiguring me. Yes I was wearing a suit, but this is just not right



I have a (dog sting) the same size, the same color, in the same place from my Malinois.
I feel your pain.


----------



## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Excellent we have been using this for some time now. Nothing personal, no anger just a unpleasant occurance for a unwanted behavior. Done properly leaves no conflict with the handler.


There was no conflict what so ever, Mike. There is a part of this that's difficult for me to comprehend.

The obedient stuff around another dog is one thing. The sudden inner calm is harder for me to understand.

I never saw that transition take effect with just one, few second, obedience lesson. I gotta tell you I have hundreds of hours into this. If I knew this before I could have spent more time this winter warming my feet by the fire. :lol:

Maybe Jeff was right when he said "shake the snot" out of her.


----------



## Chad Byerly (Jun 24, 2008)

Jenn Ruzsa said:


> With Calvin, my goal is very specifically to try to achieve results using ONLY marker and Balabanov/Ellis, in a dog from KNPV lines.


Jenn,

Sounds very interesting  Please do keep us updated and share what you learn.

When you say Balabanov/Ellis do you mean that you will be using only the methods that are positive reinforcement? Or are you planning a "balanced" approach using both rewards and compulsion, like they do?

Nice looking pup!


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> There was no conflict what so ever, Mike. There is a part of this that's difficult for me to comprehend.
> 
> The obedient stuff around another dog is one thing. The sudden inner calm is harder for me to understand.
> 
> ...


I've never seen quite as a miraculous change in a behaviour from one correction as you but take what the dog gives ya them duchies and mals are sly and fast keep your finger on the trigger.


----------



## Jenn Schoonbrood (Oct 31, 2008)

Chad Byerly said:


> When you say Balabanov/Ellis do you mean that you will be using only the methods that are positive reinforcement? Or are you planning a "balanced" approach using both rewards and compulsion, like they do?


I'd like to get as far as possible with the purely motivational components of their work. At least initially, I'd like to leave compulsion out of my training completely. This being said, I do plan to use a non-reward marker to indicate to the dog when he's done something incorrectly. I feel the dog learns faster this way, and it is clearer for him. For all intents and purposes, I consider a non-reward marker and negative punishment in conjunction with positive reward as being motivational.

I liked the results of 100% motivational training in my dogs that didn't require any physical compulsion. Working with these dogs, I had an opportunity to see how quickly a dog is capable of learning once they're "marker/clicker-literate" and I was capable of teaching a complex behaviour in a matter of minutes. I believe Calvin is capable of achieving this degree of literacy, and I'm looking forward to being able to teach the ring exercises in this manner. I feel that every exercise is a set of criteria that can be broken down and taught simply and clearly.

My biggest challenge with Calvin (aside from my own patience or lack thereof, haha) is that he's got an element to his personality that Border Collies and Kelpies just don't have - it's what makes Dutchies suitable for protection sports. I'm fully aware of these traits in Calvin, and I'm willing to apply compulsive methods when/if necessary. I just don't want to insist to myself that they're ever going to be necessary.

The main difference with my goals for Calvin is, when something's not working, I want to look at it in terms of exercise criteria and developing his understanding before I resort to compulsion. I want to exhaust the positive reward and negative punishment quadrants of the learning square before employing positive punishment or negative reward (escape training). And I don't want to go into an exercise expecting to need to compulsively proof.

I'm sick of hearing people say "sure you can clicker train a Border Collie... But try that with a Dutchie/Malinois!" I'm proving (or disproving) to myself that it CAN be done with an intense Dutchie. I feel that if I can accomplish my goals positively with Calvin, I will have reached a milestone in my journey as a trainer - I'll no longer be able to justify physical correction in working with my dogs.

I feel that a key difference between where I'm coming from and where the typical "clicker trainer" is coming from, is that I'm not ONLY about not hurting my little doggie. I truly, honestly, and completely believe that dogs learn faster and more reliably this way. :mrgreen:


----------



## Chad Byerly (Jun 24, 2008)

Jenn Ruzsa said:


> For all intents and purposes, I consider a non-reward marker and negative punishment in conjunction with positive reward as being motivational.
> ...
> I feel that a key difference between where I'm coming from and where the typical "clicker trainer" is coming from, is that I'm not ONLY about not hurting my little doggie. I truly, honestly, and completely believe that dogs learn faster and more reliably this way. :mrgreen:


Thanks for defining what you mean by motivational (many include the other two quadrants as well, because they "motivate" the dog). So I get it, you plan to train with a marker and play without the aversives Balabanov/Ellis also use. 
(more like Ivan's DVDs, not with the collar corrections and negative reinforcement both trainers might suggest at their seminars)

I think you'd be surprised at the number of "clicker trainers" who don't want to "hurt their little doggie" precisely because they *do* understand that dogs learn faster and more reliably if you don't. Many of them are very data focused, and not nearly as emotionally motivated as you may assume. Also, you'll be glad to know there are "clicker" Mals (and there must be other Dutchies), trained in bitework without aversives.

I wish you success. :grin:


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

My experience with Wibo siblings is, as long there is no real pressure that they HAVE to do things, they are really pleasant, cuddly dogs. When they have to do something they haven't got in my mind they show their dislike. And that isn't always on a correction. I started Dushi in ob on a flat collar and some foodreward, everything went well untill I wanted to go right and she didnt (not a bite, but growling as a warning before a bite...and that was only on the flat collar). 

Will follow your training a bit, curious how it works out. 

Wibo was bred to 2 females of Gerard in the same week, and they whelped in the same week half July. So his dam is either Goya or Tieka ;-) if it is a Goya daughter is must be Tieka :grin:


----------



## Jenn Schoonbrood (Oct 31, 2008)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Wibo was bred to 2 females of Gerard in the same week, and they whelped in the same week half July. So his dam is either Goya or Tieka ;-) if it is a Goya daughter is must be Tieka :grin:


Thanks, Selena! That sounds about right... I know Goya's line also tends to throw blue occasionally so I feel pretty confident I'm getting the parentage correct. :mrgreen:


----------



## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

> they are really pleasant, cuddly dogs.


:lol: Wibo and cuddly.... 

Nah, ik zie wel hoe Wibo kijkt na Dick


----------



## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> And that isn't always on a correction. I started Dushi in ob on a flat collar and some foodreward, everything went well untill I wanted to go right and she didnt (not a bite, but growling as a warning before a bite...and that was only on the flat collar).


This is interesting, as at an Ellis seminar, we discussed the need or rather the idea of presenting a bit of pulling on a collar as a young pup in training to condition(?) them to compulsion at a young age. 

It was my understanding this was so that as an adult, when and if the time comes for compulsion, (EG: Selena's Dushi turning R vs L) the dog isn't surprised at never having had its collar jerked a bit. By no means abuse, just a tap on the shoulder. I hope I am wording it correctly.


----------



## Jessy Bains (Oct 31, 2008)

Selena and Jenn, the info I have here is that the mother is a Tonya Van Hoek. Maybe Tonya is Teika?


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Jessy Bains said:


> Selena and Jenn, the info I have here is that the mother is a Tonya Van Hoek. Maybe Tonya is Teika?


Yep must be either Tieka or Goya, and Jenn said is was a Goya daughter so it must be Tieka then.


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> :lol: Wibo and cuddly....
> 
> Nah, ik zie wel hoe Wibo kijkt na Dick


Yep for their own people they are :wink:


----------



## Jenn Schoonbrood (Oct 31, 2008)

Michele McAtee said:


> This is interesting, as at an Ellis seminar, we discussed the need or rather the idea of presenting a bit of pulling on a collar as a young pup in training to condition(?) them to compulsion at a young age.


Michele, I've heard this too (not from Michael Ellis, though). My belief has always been that, while I am a positive trainer, I don't tend to "coddle" my dogs and usually by the time they're a year old they've been accidentally stepped/sat on a few times, had their hail pulled, etc. or, yeah, hit the end of the leash a few times when I changed direction without warning. They get "authoritatively handled" when stuff needs to get done. I have no time to positively teach nail grinding, by grinding for 1 gradually increasing second at a time. It's my experience that this has tended to be more than enough desensitization to physical manipulation, and I've never had a problem when and if correction needed to be employed.

I also work with dogs that tend to be very neutral to corrections, if not get fired up by them. Perhaps my experience would be different if I was working with more sensitive dogs.

I also want to add that, perhaps there's a VERY big difference in the fact that by the time any correction is introduced, my dog is as close to 100% clear on the exercise as possible. Reason would dictate that this alone is likely to limit frustration/aggression when correction is applied, even if the dog hasn't experienced correction before.


----------



## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

error, see below.


----------



## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

Good description Jenn. 
Especially


Jenn Ruzsa said:


> I also want to add that, perhaps there's a VERY big difference in the fact that by the time any correction is introduced, my dog is as close to 100% clear on the exercise as possible.


I train as motivationally as I can (including withholding rewards). But I too believe in a bit of force (ie:nail trims, right left turns with pops, etc) and not coddle every step of the way, as I do believe it can make for a more balanced dog in the long run.

This is an interesting discussion for me. I wish you well in your training with Calvin. (and all your dogs). You, from the sounds of it, have your hands fuLL! Probably wouldn't have it any other way though, huh? lol.

I feel a little sorry for you Jessy, (yeoch) but, eh, you'll get over it, right? Was this your first? lol.


----------



## Jessy Bains (Oct 31, 2008)

First wound no. This one isn't even close to the worst. The worst was a nasty ab/boxer cross that would just chew and chew as he got angrier and angrier. My entire arm from shoulder to elbow was purple for a week or two.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jenn, keep it up! It DOES work!
I like your understanding of training till it's 100% before (or IF) you need corrections.
Why pick a fight with a dog that loves to fight. Train them with leadership, not power! ;-)


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: I didn't want him to associate his out command with pain, loss of the bite, or frustration of any kind.

WTF ??? Goofy statement. 

I think you are in for a nice suprise when the dog doesn't really understand what a correction is when the time comes for one. I have had a good time with Buko trying to get him to understand them. He also doesn't come from lines that will come up the line, and he has.

Can't wait to see your photos !!!!! LOL

Does no one teach you guys how to keep the dog from putting holes in you ??? LOL


----------



## Scott Dunmore (May 5, 2006)

Wouldn't 5 months of bitework development without any obedience training make your goals much, much harder to achieve? I don't have much experience with those lines of dogs, but, from videos, it seems that developing their bite would be the least of your worries. 

Such a powerful dog with loads of bitework is hardly a 'clean slate'. Just wondering how you think adding self control to him will go?
Scott


----------



## Jenn Schoonbrood (Oct 31, 2008)

Scott Dunmore said:


> Wouldn't 5 months of bitework development without any obedience training make your goals much, much harder to achieve? I don't have much experience with those lines of dogs, but, from videos, it seems that developing their bite would be the least of your worries.
> 
> Such a powerful dog with loads of bitework is hardly a 'clean slate'. Just wondering how you think adding self control to him will go?
> Scott


It won't necessarily make it harder.

First of all, to clarify "clean slate": He's a clean slate obedience-wise - I don't have to cross him over from compulsive training to motivational. Which is doable, but it's an unnecessary challenge, and you CAN permanently lose a lot of the dog's natural desire to try things and find what works (teach himself) if he's already introduced to the fact that doing it "wrong" results in unpleasantness.

Back to the making it harder part:

I didn't want to raise a puppy. At the same time, I wanted a dog raised the way I requested. That's why I brought Calvin in as a baby and entrusted Jessy (and Tony, who handles him) with raising him. I had basically two options: I could tell them to leave the dog in a kennel for 5 or 6 months, or I could at least leverage the skill that Tony has in terms of putting a KNPV foundation on him. That's something that I wouldn't have been able to expose him to here.

I believe that any exercise is a set of criteria, and by clearly defining those criteria both in myself and then the dog, I can shape any exercise. Period. To date, the criteria for Calvin's bitework has been very lax. He shows up, he bites, he pushes into the bite, he gets rewarded. Good dog.

All that happens when he comes here and he begins to learn self control (WE don't teach it, HE teaches himself) is the criteria are raised and changed to shape the behaviour I want. He's also going to learn the concepts of outing and self control while playing "The Game".

Obviously for a dog like Calvin, the bite (the decoy) is the biggest reward. So it's crucial that I have my decoy's support in training exercises the way I want to train them. That means lots of waiting him out, exhausting him, and giving him the opportunity to TEACH HIMSELF that self control is the quickest route to reward.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

If there is any dog there at all, you will find that your theory is not gonna work. Good luck. 

Shaping is cute and all, but when the decoy becomes the be all and end all, you suddenly have nothing to shape anything with.

Quote: Obviously for a dog like Calvin, the bite (the decoy) is the biggest reward. So it's crucial that I have my decoy's support in training exercises the way I want to train them. That means lots of waiting him out, exhausting him, and giving him the opportunity to TEACH HIMSELF that self control is the quickest route to reward.

They just get stronger. Good luck.


----------



## Jenn Schoonbrood (Oct 31, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: I didn't want him to associate his out command with pain, loss of the bite, or frustration of any kind.
> 
> WTF ??? Goofy statement.
> 
> ...


Jeff, I'd have figured you've been around long enough to see the sheer conflict on the out in so many dogs. I may make goofy statements from time to time, but I fail to see how that was one. LOL The out is easily the most conflict-prone exercise most people teach a dog. I wanted Calvin to have no such preconcieved "understanding" of outing once I start him. That's not goofy - that's because I understand motivational training very thoroughly, and know what I stand to lose if the dog's had negative/conflictory experiences before I start with him.

Nevertheless... You say you had challenges with Buko understanding the correction. Perhaps. I don't know you, and I don't know Buko, and I haven't seen you train. But it's possible that it isn't the CORRECTION he had trouble understanding so much as it was the EXERCISE in the first place. I don't know, and you won't know because you don't believe there's any clearer way to train than the way you train him, or I imagine you'd be doing it.

I've handled quite a few reportedly "handler aggressive" dogs that, once I started from scratch with motivational training, never came up the leash, even once corrections were employed down the road. The dog is going to come up the leash when he's frustrated by the fact that he doesn't understand what's being corrected. That is, in my honest opinion, the reason for most handler aggression in the first place.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Then there is when the dog understands the exercise, and prefers to do what HE wants. oooooops forgot about that.

When the dog wants to bite, and you want the dog to out, there is conflict. However, if you are playing the "game" and the dog is doing fine, maybe there is not that much dog there to begin with.

Most "handler aggressive dogs" are not handler aggressive. The ones that are leave big big impressions, and changing handlers does not change what they are.


----------



## Jenn Schoonbrood (Oct 31, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> If there is any dog there at all, you will find that your theory is not gonna work. Good luck.
> 
> Shaping is cute and all, but when the decoy becomes the be all and end all, you suddenly have nothing to shape anything with.
> 
> ...


When the decoy is the be all and end all, the decoy is the most powerful reward there is. That isn't a PROBLEM, that's an OPPORTUNITY. 

Why would Calvin get stronger in resisting if he has the opportunity to learn that the cleanest, easiest way to his reward (the bite) IS by performing behaviours correctly? It's just not logical. That statement is spoken like someone who truly doesn't understand the theories and practicalities of marker training.

If the greatest reward FROM CALVIN'S PERSPECTIVE comes ONLY when he performs behaviours correctly, and if incorrectly performed behaviours are less rewarding, there's nothing to fight with him over. He teaches himself. People run into problems when they attempt to reward the dog with something lesser (in the dog's opinion) than the self-reward granted by disobeying... But if you're leveraging the dog's most powerful reinforcer, this doesn't happen.

It takes a certain decoy to do it and see it through properly, though.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

OK well whatever, good luck, what do I know. See you at the championships.


----------



## Jenn Schoonbrood (Oct 31, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Then there is when the dog understands the exercise, and prefers to do what HE wants. oooooops forgot about that.


I didn't forget, Jeff. There is just NO LOGICAL REASON for the dog to do what HE wants, when what HE wants is inherently less rewarding than what I want him to do. Period. If he would like to try what he wants, he is more than welcome to. In fact, I ENCOURAGE him to, so that he can learn it's unrewarding. Makes my life easier.

A marker-literate dog will only do the wrong thing a couple times once he learns the right behaviour to earn the reward. But this requires that the reward be higher value than the result of not obeying.

Anyway, I'm tapping out... It's 4:30 AM here.


----------



## Julie Blanding (Mar 12, 2008)

Jenn Ruzsa said:


> Hi Julie. Jessy can attest that he and I discussed this one at length! I am set on attempting to develop an out without any conflict at all. I didn't want him corrected, choked, or flanked off the bite. I didn't want him to associate his out command with pain, loss of the bite, or frustration of any kind. My priority has always been getting a clean slate of a dog off the plane. Therefore, we determined that the best way to achieve that (and still get the dog off the suit and kenneled up each night so the decoy can go in for supper, haha) was to agitate him while he was holding, and then take him away from the item when he dropped it.
> 
> Jessy can expand on it more if he would like, since he's got more hands-on with Calvin at this point than I do.


I see. That must be incredibly laborious for your decoy to shed equipment after every single bite. I can't imagine having a dog that powerful without understanding the out command early on. :-s

There are plenty of times dogs understand an exercise and chose to say "FU" I'm doing what I want my way. And getting in cheap shots on you or the decoy is enough of a reward they don't really care. 

But, none the less, I wish you luck. I would be very interested to see how he learns to control himself as time goes on when asked to do more complicated exercises while the decoy is pressuring the dog.

Maybe I'm a control freak. hehehe
Julie


----------



## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

I'm personally very interested in what Jenn proposes to do. Instead of telling her she's wrong or that it can't be done, I plan to zip my lip and watch. 

I've seen first hand the type of training she's talking about. I think she's got a pretty good shot at making it work.


----------



## Julie Blanding (Mar 12, 2008)

Konnie:  I don't believe I said she was wrong, (unless you are referring to someone else) but if it was me; I apologize since that was not my intent at all.

Also, there was a statement made about 'us' not understanding marking training. :-\"

I probably don't have near the years experience everyone else does on this board. After all I have only titled a few dogs in Schutzhund. So, I too would like to see how this works. 


Julie


----------



## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Julie - my post wasn't necessarily directed at anybody in particular (OK, maybe one person, but not you)


----------

