# Koehler II



## Don Turnipseed

Well, It has been some time since I worked BlackJack. Got an interesting story though. I had him and the new pup in the valley yesterday to do some shopping and go by the GF's house and blow her rain gutters out since we are getting into winter. The dogs had been in the truck a couple of hours when I got to her house so I slipped Jack's leash on and told her to waolk him while I took care of the gutters. She said Jack was too big and she couldn't control him. I told her he was trained. She took the leash and he fell in on her left side and off she went. I told her to stop and Jack sat when she stopped. It was like his last session was yesterday. With the short time I actually trained him, no one will ever convince me the can get that out of motivational training. Heck, she has never even walked him before and he didn't miss a lick.....and he has never been to her house.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

You're bored aren't you? Well my story is that hubby took Khira off to meet a family and put a leash in the hands of a 9 year old and the same thing---heel, sit, platz. My favorite though is Khaiba about to mount a girlie dog in season and me yelling PLATZ! from a distance. He had this total look of bewilderment on his face but did a beautiful snappy platz. Even I was amazed at this. He's the total cookie, I mean motivationally, trained dog.

Terrasita


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## Don Turnipseed

Bored...me! God yes. How did you know that T? Just sitting here drinking whiskey and eating DiGiornos pizza. Been doing this since about 2, so, yes I am bored. LOL Was thinking about, something really controversial for a change, to throw on the "bored" to get things going.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Hahahah, how much whiskey have you had? We need Maggie if its going to livin up a bit and Lynda is always good for controversy and stirring the mix.

T
Who is stuck in Albany, NY for 3 days.


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## Colin Chin

Don,
How did you do it with your dog's training ?


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## Bob Scott

Don said;
"With the short time I actually trained him, no one will ever convince me the can get that out of motivational training."

Mine will. Never had a leash or collar correction of any sort and my 4yr old grandson walks him when we go to the park.


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## Don Turnipseed

I did a few weeks of Koehlers novice. He hasn't done any for almost 5 mo and still down stays, sit stays, heals ....which is what is covered. After seeing this I am more convinced this method works best with these dogs. No treats, no commands other than the realease and a short verbal praise after a couple of weeks. After 5 mo he still has it down pat. I think I will pick up where I left off shortly because he loved doing it. Was working a pup named DeVille also and she was doing great but I sold her.


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## Don Turnipseed

Bob Scott said:


> Don said;
> "With the short time I actually trained him, no one will ever convince me the can get that out of motivational training."
> 
> Mine will. Never had a leash or collar correction of any sort and my 4yr old grandson walks him when we go to the park.


With just a a short session per day for a few weeks and none for 5 mo. Where is all this smoke coming from. LOL


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## Bob Scott

Don Turnipseed said:


> With just a a short session per day for a few weeks and none for 5 mo. Where is all this smoke coming from. LOL


"Never" had a leash correction and he's almost 7.


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## Colin Chin

Bob Scott said:


> "Never" had a leash correction and he's almost 7.


Hi Bob,
How did you do it ? I want to learn. You train your JRT the same way too ? Cheers.


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## Colin Chin

Don Turnipseed said:


> I did a few weeks of Koehlers novice. He hasn't done any for almost 5 mo and still down stays, sit stays, heals ....which is what is covered. After seeing this I am more convinced this method works best with these dogs. No treats, no commands other than the realease and a short verbal praise after a couple of weeks. After 5 mo he still has it down pat. I think I will pick up where I left off shortly because he loved doing it. Was working a pup named DeVille also and she was doing great but I sold her.


Hi Don,
Where can get this Koehlers training thing ? It is amazing.


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## Don Turnipseed

Colin Chin said:


> Hi Don,
> Where can get this Koehlers training thing ? It is amazing.


You have to get it used I think Colin. The author is Bill Koehler. There are several books but the one you want is the Novice one. It teaches bt emplying a method by which a dog normally learns rather than constant reward.


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## Lynda Myers

Game on...mix stirrer, here, presence and accounted for now where the hell is Maggie?


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## Lynda Myers

That's great Don that the pup retained his training! But that speaks more on the individual dog and his ability to retain information then on a method. But hell here's one for the other side...when I was asked to stop bring my male out to the club. Short story not worth telling!:wink:
I got lazy with him and quit training him. Then got a wild hair the beginning of Sept of 09 to get his BH...a month out from the trial. Prior(1-1 1/2 years) to this hadn't done much with him. Told couple friends of my plan and asked if they would come out and help pin point what needed to be worked on for the BH routine. Gotta tell ya he would have past with flying colors if the trial was on that day. the BH routine is 300 grueling paces of focus heeling with a couple of sits and downs to break up the endless heeling. Training method ...click, click, click.


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## Lynda Myers

Don Turnipseed said:


> You have to get it used I think Colin. The author is Bill Koehler. There are several books but the one you want is the Novice one. It teaches bt emplying a method by which a dog normally learns rather than constant reward.


 Hehehe I have a copy! :razz: Colin go to amazon.com you should be able to find it there.:razz: 
They only get a constant reward for a behavior in the beginning of teaching it. But after the dog knows the behavior the reward it given randomly for one behavior. Or if the dog has learned/ knows several behaviors you will link them together giving only one reward for the chain. you always leave this part out when you mention rewards why?


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## maggie fraser

Colin Chin said:


> Hi Don,
> Where can get this Koehlers training thing ? It is amazing.


Hi Folks! \\/


Colin, what is it you find "amazing" about it ? I'm really curious about that, it sounds like Don is equally amazed by it too but then Don hadn't really trained a dog before, at least I think that's what he said.


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## Don Turnipseed

Very good lynda. One for both sides. 

Now I got a new pup that was corrected twice for going in the kitchen area. Nine weeks old. Two times and he hasn't stepped foot in it since, Training method....foot stomp, foot stomp. That is two foot stomps with verbal NO's attached. Try and do that with two clicks darlin. LOL


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## Don Turnipseed

These threads are reminiscent of name that tune. I do have a question for Lynda. Why is it when I train a young dog for 15 to 30 minutes a day for 4 weeks, it is mostly indicative of the dogs retention ability rather than the type of training after a 5 mo layoff.

On the other hand after months, countless hours, and unmeasurable repetition and treats, when your dog remembers it is because of the excellent training method. Had treats in your pocket didn't you. LOL You still have to reinforce with clicks?? I mean after you started him up again after the layoff?? Of course.

Jack just did what he was trained to do with someone that never had him on a leash before. No treats...no tricks.


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## Don Turnipseed

maggie fraser said:


> Hi Folks! \\/
> 
> 
> Colin, what is it you find "amazing" about it ? I'm really curious about that, it sounds like Don is equally amazed by it too but then Don hadn't really trained a dog before, at least I think that's what he said.


Not to do useless stuff like heal. I suppose I train to a point. None of my dogs has ever countersurfed or gotten into the garbage.. My dogs load up in the truck when I tell them. I can move the truck a mile and be assured the dogs will find me. I train them that livestock is off limits. They get in their chair when I tell them, they lay down when I tell them. But this is all just basic stuff that comes from living and working with me. I never have need for a dog to heel because they rarely need to be leashed. I just had to try it when I saw how fast and well Dan's dog reponded to the method after watching so many struggle with them using motivational. You have to realize Maggie. Koehler is just the flat out most useful tool in my tool box...but when I am trick training I will reach into that tool box and pull out the treats because I can teach tricks faster with treats. All methods serve a purpose.


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## Don Turnipseed

Guys, I am not bored now...it is daylight and I have another yard to bleach then got to move to another to rake and get ready for bleaching. May be bored again this evening though.


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## maggie fraser

Don Turnipseed said:


> . You have to realize Maggie. Koehler is just the flat out most useful tool in my tool box...but when I am trick training I will reach into that tool box and pull out the treats because I can teach tricks faster with treats. All methods serve a purpose
> 
> 
> 
> .
Click to expand...

I'm feeling a wee bit board now too....maybe we could label this the board thread?

The thing about tools Don, clubs and flints were tools, good tools two I doubt that any will deny....in their time! Click click click has a better ring to it I think than, foot stomp foot stomp foot stomp don't you think, uses less energy but requires more brain power...I think.

Anyway, I reckon you can come up with something better.....at best, responses here will be anything but original, I'm board....but not that board!l


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## Don Turnipseed

maggie fraser said:


> I'm feeling a wee bit board now too....maybe we could label this the board thread?
> 
> The thing about tools Don, clubs and flints were tools, good tools two I doubt that any will deny....in their time! Click click click has a better ring to it I think than, foot stomp foot stomp foot stomp don't you think, uses less energy but requires more brain power...I think.
> 
> Anyway, I reckon you can come up with something better.....at best, responses here will be anything but original, I'm board....but not that board!l


Naw Maggie, two footstomps on the floor took all of 2 seconds as opposed to who knows how many weeks and hrs of click, click, click. Which do ypou think causes the dog more stress? Those two seconds or the weeks of clicking?

Same thing when BlackJack tried biting me. Y'all said there aes a better wya and after maybe 6 mo he may still bite me. In 30 seconds he was cured for a life time. Now I may not be a bonafide trainer but I am not stupid either. I couldn't bring myself to torment a poor dog through the endless hours of repetition and clicking to teach a dog something that can be done in seconds or minutes. If you don't mind wasting a lot of your time, click away. Mind you, all I did was post how well Jack did with a little training and none for 5 months. I didn't even compare it to motivational if you want to go back and read it. I said nothing, but, the possies felt threatened because something else works better and here you all are. LMAO Y'all got good reason to worry about it because not everyone wants to spend and eternity training a dog like it takes with motivational training.


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## Bob Scott

Don, you actually did compare it to motivational training.
Quote:
"With the short time I actually trained him, no one will ever convince me the can get that out of motivational training."

I think what most here are saying is that no one method works all the time for all dogs.
I've said in the past that I consider leadership more important then method. 

What a person does in a matter of days or weeks is as much about leadership as it is about the method. 
A dogs retention isn't necessarily about methods, it's about how effective each method is used by the individual trainer and the dog.
Leadership in itself doesn't have to be about physical control over a dog. 
I will always consider the option/tool to use physical correction in dog training but motivational will always be my foundation. That's based on actually training, competing and titling dogs for more then a few years.
Thunder was my first, 100% marker/reward based, no physical correction dog. I wont use the term purely positive anymore because the term is to controversial (for good reason) . It worked for me but I will always keep the corrections in my tool box.


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## Jim Nash

Don Turnipseed said:


> Naw Maggie, two footstomps on the floor took all of 2 seconds as opposed to who knows how many weeks and hrs of click, click, click. Which do ypou think causes the dog more stress? Those two seconds or the weeks of clicking?
> 
> Same thing when BlackJack tried biting me. Y'all said there aes a better wya and after maybe 6 mo he may still bite me. In 30 seconds he was cured for a life time. Now I may not be a bonafide trainer but I am not stupid either. I couldn't bring myself to torment a poor dog through the endless hours of repetition and clicking to teach a dog something that can be done in seconds or minutes. If you don't mind wasting a lot of your time, click away. Mind you, all I did was post how well Jack did with a little training and none for 5 months. I didn't even compare it to motivational if you want to go back and read it. I said nothing, but, the possies felt threatened because something else works better and here you all are. LMAO Y'all got good reason to worry about it because not everyone wants to spend and eternity training a dog like it takes with motivational training.


I recommend rereading what you originally said . I train using both methods and don't drink the koolaid you or Lynda serve up . It depends on the dog and depends on what I want to train. You have repeatdly shown you don't have a full grasp of motivational training and because you've had success with Keohler methods which is great you state state motivational methods can't have the same results when you haven't even trained for those things using motivational methods . I suggest you learn how to train motivational properly , actually give it a try and then come back and give your opinion . Until then you are just guessing about the effectiveness of motivational training .


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## maggie fraser

Don Turnipseed said:


> .
> 
> 
> 
> I said nothing, but, the possies felt threatened because something else works better and here you all are. LMAO Y'all got good reason to worry about it because not everyone wants to spend and eternity training a dog like it takes with motivational training.[/
> 
> 
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> Don, I worry about you sometimes, I guess I'm a bit of a worrier.
> 
> I don't think folks are exactly feeling threatened, bemused more like. I get what you're saying about the foot stomp, I do that with young pups, make a lot of noise with interesting body language, it effects the desired result easily enough....and to last a life time. Only thing is, that's not really what y'all folks are referring to here, you maybe know that.
Click to expand...


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## Bob Scott

Another quote from Don
" not everyone wants to spend and eternity training a dog like it takes with motivational training."

Cadaver search, live search, article search, CD, CDX, BH, SchI, SchII, SchIII, HT, TT, CGC
All motivational, all by 5yrs old. I admit I was a bit slower then I liked because of many other commitments in life.
I receintly did a demo at one of my grandaughter's Jr High School. I showed how easily a dog could find contraband on the kids. Since I have no permit to handle drugs I took all of an hour, the week before the demo, to imprint and work a few sessions with Thunder. It was a piece of cake. Motivational of course! :-D:wink:


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## Maren Bell Jones

Jim Nash said:


> I recommend rereading what you originally said . I train using both methods and don't drink the koolaid you or Lynda serve up . It depends on the dog and depends on what I want to train. You have repeatdly shown you don't have a full grasp of motivational training and because you've had success with Keohler methods which is great you state state motivational methods can't have the same results when you haven't even trained for those things using motivational methods .* I suggest you learn how to train motivational properly , actually give it a try and then come back and give your opinion . Until then you are just guessing about the effectiveness of motivational training .*


This. +1000. With as much free time as you have, if you actually put forth the effort and learned how to do it properly instead of trashing it, I think you'd find motivational is actually much faster, particularly for simple obedience exercises.


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## Don Turnipseed

Don Turnipseed said:


> Well, It has been some time since I worked BlackJack. Got an interesting story though. I had him and the new pup in the valley yesterday to do some shopping and go by the GF's house and blow her rain gutters out since we are getting into winter. The dogs had been in the truck a couple of hours when I got to her house so I slipped Jack's leash on and told her to waolk him while I took care of the gutters. She said Jack was too big and she couldn't control him. I told her he was trained. She took the leash and he fell in on her left side and off she went. I told her to stop and Jack sat when she stopped. It was like his last session was yesterday. With the short time I actually trained him, no one will ever convince me the can get that out of motivational training. Heck, she has never even walked him before and he didn't miss a lick.....and he has never been to her house.


Here is what I originally said Jim. Never a mentioin of another method....until all the female possies...and Bob of course, came to the methods rescue. Sorry Bob. Now, you were say Jim. LMAO


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## Jim Nash

Don Turnipseed said:


> Here is what I originally said Jim. Never a mentioin of another method....until all the female possies...and Bob of course, came to the methods rescue. Sorry Bob. Now, you were say Jim. LMAO


Like I said you should reread your original post . Here I'll point it out for you . " With the short time I actually trained him , no one will ever convince me the can get that out of motivational training . ". Notice the comparison to and mention of another method (motivational training) .


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## Don Turnipseed

Maggie referred to newer better methods, meaning motivational. What is so new about it. In different variations has been around forever. So the clicker replaced the praise when the dog got it right. WOW. Did away with the no to make it different, even though a dog knows what no means, so it appears there is nothing negative....even the word no. I am impressed. Now people don't even know if it permissable to praise. My dogs have always behaved in the house and do what I want them to do, or largely, NOT TO DO, you can't do with motivational because they need motivation to NOT do a lot of things. Got any idea how that is done? 

Anyway, I was just pointing out how well Jack did after such a long layoff and a short training schedule. Glad to hear all the dogs can do it. LOL Don't feel like rehashing BS that has already been hashed. Kind of pointless. I forget Lynda, did that dog of yours pass the BH?


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## Don Turnipseed

Jim Nash said:


> Like I said you should reread your original post . Here I'll point it out for you . " With the short time I actually trained him , no one will ever convince me the can get that out of motivational training . ". Notice the comparison to and mention of another method (motivational training) .


Now that I am done outside I re read the post instead of going on memory, and yes, I guess I did mention motivational.


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## Jim Nash

Don Turnipseed said:


> Maggie referred to newer better methods, meaning motivational. What is so new about it. In different variations has been around forever. So the clicker replaced the praise when the dog got it right. WOW. Did away with the no to make it different, even though a dog knows what no means, so it appears there is nothing negative....even the word no. I am impressed. Now people don't even know if it permissable to praise. My dogs have always behaved in the house and do what I want them to do, or largely, NOT TO DO, you can't do with motivational because they need motivation to NOT do a lot of things. Got any idea how that is done?
> 
> Anyway, I was just pointing out how well Jack did after such a long layoff and a short training schedule. Glad to hear all the dogs can do it. LOL Don't feel like rehashing BS that has already been hashed. Kind of pointless. I forget Lynda, did that dog of yours pass the BH?


Never picked you for being a bullshit artist ,strongly opinionated and to the point YES . But time to call BS . That's exactly what you wanted to do . You were bored had a few nips and descided to stir the pot . LOL .


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## maggie fraser

Don Turnipseed said:


> Maggie referred to newer better methods, meaning motivational. What is so new about it. In different variations has been around forever. So the clicker replaced the praise when the dog got it right. WOW. Did away with the no to make it different, even though a dog knows what no means, so it appears there is nothing negative....even the word no. I am impressed. Now people don't even know if it permissable to praise. My dogs have always behaved in the house and do what I want them to do, or largely, NOT TO DO, you can't do with motivational because they need motivation to NOT do a lot of things. Got any idea how that is done?
> 
> Anyway, I was just pointing out how well Jack did after such a long layoff and a short training schedule. Glad to hear all the dogs can do it. LOL Don't feel like rehashing BS that has already been hashed. Kind of pointless. I forget Lynda, did that dog of yours pass the BH?


 
Actually Don, that wasn't exactly Maggie's reference. Maggie was aliking Koehler to a caveman dragging a woman into the cave by the hair.


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## Don Turnipseed

Jim Nash said:


> Never picked you for being a bullshit artist ,strongly opinionated and to the point YES . But time to call BS . That's exactly what you wanted to do . You were bored had a few nips and descided to stir the pot . LOL .


Did it too.


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## maggie fraser

Don Turnipseed said:


> Did it too.


You're on the back foot Don!


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## Don Turnipseed

maggie fraser said:


> You're on the back foot Don!


You will have to explain that bit of colloquialism.


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## Jim Nash

Don Turnipseed said:


> Now that I am done outside I re read the post instead of going on memory, and yes, I guess I did mention motivational.


That's ok I got a lot more laughs out it then you .


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## maggie fraser

Don Turnipseed said:


> You will have to explain that bit of colloquialism.


 
This definition is as good as any..

*Idiom Definitions for 'Back foot'*

If you are on your back foot, you are at a disadvantage and forced to be defensive of your position.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Don Turnipseed said:


> Maggie referred to newer better methods, meaning motivational. What is so new about it. In different variations has been around forever. *So the clicker replaced the praise when the dog got it right.* WOW. Did away with the no to make it different, even though a dog knows what no means, so it appears there is nothing negative....even the word no. I am impressed. *Now people don't even know if it permissable to praise.*


Sums it up right there. I know it's a blow to your considerable ego, but just admit you don't understand motivational/marker training. It's okay. Simply put down the bottle and order a few Ellis or Balabanov DVDs instead.


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## maggie fraser

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Sums it up right there. I know it's a blow to your considerable ego, but just admit you don't understand motivational/marker training. It's okay. Simply put down the bottle and order a few Ellis or Balabanov DVDs instead.


Those are fighting words Maren....

I thought this thread was going to be tongue in cheek!


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## Maren Bell Jones

LOL, that's actually VERY tongue in cheek, coming from me.


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## Don Turnipseed

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Sums it up right there. I know it's a blow to your considerable ego, but just admit you don't understand motivational/marker training. It's okay. Simply put down the bottle and order a few Ellis or Balabanov DVDs instead.


What for?? I don't have a problem getting my dogs to do what I want. You guys already got the tapes and are still trying to make it work. What does that tell you. Maybe like Bob said...It is mostly in the leader ship.


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## maggie fraser

Don Turnipseed said:


> What for?? I don't have a problem getting my dogs to do what I want. You guys already got the tapes and are still trying to make it work. What does that tell you. Maybe like Bob said...It is mostly in the leader ship.


Get in the truck guys, and no counter surfing, oh, and no sliding off the chair in under an hour ! :-D


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## Maren Bell Jones

Don Turnipseed said:


> What for?? I don't have a problem getting my dogs to do what I want. You guys already got the tapes and are still trying to make it work. What does that tell you. Maybe like Bob said...It is mostly in the leader ship.


Very simple. You cannot make claims comparing two training methods when it's very clear you don't understand one. Not sure why. Fear of the unknown? :-k


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## Don Turnipseed

maggie fraser said:


> Get in the truck guys, and no counter surfing, oh, and no sliding off the chair in under an hour ! :-D


No kidding. Some of y'all actually realize I don't need for a dog to do most this stuff. What I do require you can't teach with motivation. Stuff like don't kiil someone elses livestock while I am 1 mile away having a beer. That steak on the counter is off limits even when I am not there. The trash bag is off limits even when I am not there. To me a house dog behave in the house. I am not going to crate my dogs when I leave the house even if I am gone for most the day. If I were to have to resort to that...I wouldn't consider the dog trained. I am not going to keep my countertops clear. I am not going to hide my trash in the closet. I train the dogs to behave in the house. I just need the little things that make a dog enjoyable to have around. Most of which can't be done motivationally. 

As far as liking the Koehler method...you bet. I have spent a lot of years watching people try to woo these dogs, use heavy compulsion, and throw treats at them until they were full. I saw what an actual Koehler trainer, that uses the method right, did with one dog in nothing flat and I knew right then, my dogs responded to this method extremely well. I tried it with a couple more to be sure it wasn't a fluke. It wasn't.


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## Don Turnipseed

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Very simple. You cannot make claims comparing two training methods when it's very clear you don't understand one. Not sure why. Fear of the unknown? :-k


I read about it in a book Maren so I know everything I need to know. I don't need actual experience.


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## maggie fraser

Don Turnipseed said:


> No kidding. Some of y'all actually realize I don't need for a dog to do most this stuff. What I do require you can't teach with motivation. Stuff like don't kiil someone elses livestock while I am 1 mile away having a beer. That steak on the counter is off limits even when I am not there. The trash bag is off limits even when I am not there. To me a house dog behave in the house. I am not going to crate my dogs when I leave the house even if I am gone for most the day. If I were to have to resort to that...I wouldn't consider the dog trained. I am not going to keep my countertops clear. I am not going to hide my trash in the closet. I train the dogs to behave in the house. I just need the little things that make a dog enjoyable to have around. Most of which can't be done motivationally.
> 
> As far as liking the Koehler method...you bet. I have spent a lot of years watching people try to woo these dogs, use heavy compulsion, and throw treats at them until they were full. I saw what an actual Koehler trainer, that uses the method right, did with one dog in nothing flat and I knew right then, my dogs responded to this method extremely well. I tried it with a couple more to be sure it wasn't a fluke. It wasn't.


It's very easy to refer to one's own dogs, "these dogs" 'cos they ain't like anybody elses dogs! Probably better "this owner" .

That steak on the counter ? Who are you kidding Don ? That's eff all in a trained dog, particularly one trained as a pup, quit using "these dogs" as a disclaimer. Lol


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## Maren Bell Jones

Don Turnipseed said:


> No kidding. Some of y'all actually realize I don't need for a dog to do most this stuff. What I do require you can't teach with motivation. Stuff like don't kiil someone elses livestock while I am 1 mile away having a beer. That steak on the counter is off limits even when I am not there. The trash bag is off limits even when I am not there. To me a house dog behave in the house. I am not going to crate my dogs when I leave the house even if I am gone for most the day. If I were to have to resort to that...I wouldn't consider the dog trained. I am not going to keep my countertops clear. I am not going to hide my trash in the closet. I train the dogs to behave in the house. I just need the little things that make a dog enjoyable to have around. Most of which can't be done motivationally.
> 
> As far as liking the Koehler method...you bet. I have spent a lot of years watching people try to woo these dogs, use heavy compulsion, and throw treats at them until they were full. I saw what an actual Koehler trainer, that uses the method right, did with one dog in nothing flat and I knew right then, my dogs responded to this method extremely well. I tried it with a couple more to be sure it wasn't a fluke. It wasn't.


So...it's basically pet manners dog training then. Please explain then how that qualifies you, someone with a clear lack of understanding of how motivational methods work in the first place, to critique those using those methods to train dogs in working, working sport, and sport performance venues.


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## maggie fraser

:lol: It's waay waay past my bedtime but I think I may stay up for this one. :lol:

Maren when you're not talking about vet costs. procedures and set up, you're quite funny!


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## Don Turnipseed

maggie fraser said:


> It's very easy to refer to one's own dogs, "these dogs" 'cos they ain't like anybody elses dogs! Probably better "this owner" .
> 
> That steak on the counter ? Who are you kidding Don ? That's eff all in a trained dog, particularly one trained as a pup, quit using "these dogs" as a disclaimer. Lol


They are likely not like the dogs y'all have Maggie. They are a different type of dog all together. Even you should realize that. One of the biggest differences, since you really don't know, is these dogs have not been bred for trainability like GSD's, which overall are considered a begginers dog by most because they are so easy. That is one of the major differences that would apply to this discussion. So yes, I will use "these dogs" for a reason. Not only have they not been bred for trainability. for the most part, these particular dogs have been bred with a big independent streak which means, they take off across country rather than walk with me hunting and they think for themselves. Possibly now that I have pointed out the obvious, you can make better sense of why different methods work with different dogs.


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## Don Turnipseed

Maren Bell Jones said:


> So...it's basically pet manners dog training then. Please explain then how that qualifies you, someone with a clear lack of understanding of how motivational methods work in the first place, to critique those using those methods to train dogs in working, working sport, and sport performance venues.


You have never bred a dog but you feel free to critique as an expert. I can say that one thing is obvious regardless of who is using motivational. If it didn't work well with a particualr dog, y'all are convinced they did it wrong. That just crys BS. All methods are not made for every dog. Motivational only went so far for Jennifer with Jager, on the other hand, crank and yank didn't phase him either. With this method, he would have never questioned a thing.


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## maggie fraser

Don Turnipseed said:


> They are likely not like the dogs y'all have Maggie. They are a different type of dog all together. Even you should realize that. One of the biggest differences, since you really don't know, is these dogs have not been bred for trainability like GSD's, which overall are considered a begginers dog by most because they are so easy. That is one of the major differences that would apply to this discussion. So yes, I will use "these dogs" for a reason. Not only have they not been bred for trainability. for the most part, these particular dogs have been bred with a big independent streak which means, they take off across country rather than walk with me hunting and they think for themselves. Possibly now that I have pointed out the obvious, you can make better sense of why different methods work with different dogs.


 
Would you equate that independent streak as "blowing you off" then?

At the end of the day, if your dogs are like no others on here well then, what exactly is this discussion about?


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## Maren Bell Jones

I wouldn't consider a working lines GSD a beginner's dog, as in a newbie dog owner. There are a good number of working Malinois, Dutch shepherds, and GSDs will try to eat your lunch if they feel that a correction is unfair. This is why you have to be smarter than the dog and use physical compulsion judiciously. Because if you bring a fight to a Mal, they will bring the fight right back, which is right about the same time as the one or two neurons a Mal has quits working. Not a good thing for either party.


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## Don Turnipseed

Just help those along that think I should learn just what motivational is, you should try learning what Koehler is also. The basics are not trick training. It is obedience training for basic obedience competition, open and utility. More Koehler trained dogs are titled in obedience than any method. Motivational is falling by the wayside in competition because when all is said and done, the people want to win and can't do it reliabley with motivation. Learning things works best if we are all going to learn don't cha think.


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## Don Turnipseed

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I wouldn't consider a working lines GSD a beginner's dog, as in a newbie dog owner. There are a good number of working Malinois, Dutch shepherds, and GSDs will try to eat your lunch if they feel that a correction is unfair. This is why you have to be smarter than the dog and use physical compulsion judiciously. Because if you bring a fight to a Mal, they will bring the fight right back, which is right about the same time as the one or two neurons a Mal has quits working. Not a good thing for either party.


I have seen a good GSD recommended to newbies countless times, on this board, because they are trainable.


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## Don Turnipseed

maggie fraser said:


> Would you equate that independent streak as "blowing you off" then?
> 
> At the end of the day, if your dogs are like no others on here well then, what exactly is this discussion about?


Training. There is a few dogs like this out there and the trainers will tell you you got to be a lot stronger than the dog.....and use different methods. Most will be doing police work.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Don Turnipseed said:


> You have never bred a dog but you feel free to critique as an expert. I can say that one thing is obvious regardless of who is using motivational. If it didn't work well with a particualr dog, y'all are convinced they did it wrong. That just crys BS. *All methods are not made for every dog.* Motivational only went so far for Jennifer with Jager, on the other hand, crank and yank didn't phase him either. With this method, he would have never questioned a thing.


Distracting strawman argument, blah blah blah. Anyways, what's in bold is about the only correct thing you've said the whole thread. And a good trainer knows when to try something else, whether it's another way to motivate a dog or maybe to go to physical compulsion, if you're so inclined. But it all goes back to you not even understand the simplest fundamentals of the one you're dissing. Otherwise it's like doing a movie review of a movie you haven't even seen, but just sort of heard about second or third hand. Go and read, watch, learn, and try and THEN come back and comment. Think of it as a challenge. :smile:


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## Maren Bell Jones

Don Turnipseed said:


> Just help those along that think I should learn just what motivational is, you should try learning what Koehler is also. The basics are not trick training. It is obedience training for basic obedience competition, open and utility. More Koehler trained dogs are titled in obedience than any method. Motivational is falling by the wayside in competition because when all is said and done, the people want to win and can't do it reliabley with motivation. Learning things works best if we are all going to learn don't cha think.


LOL, I read the book about 15 years ago. I tried it on my very first dog, a Brittany. It ended up being not particularly enjoyable for me or my dog as it was either frustrating or boring. Now I can go out and play with my dog as training instead of it being a chore. Motivational is falling by the wayside? Is that why rally obedience and agility, which typically use little or no physical correction, have sky rocketed for entries and traditional obedience entries have plummeted? I'm pretty sure Ellis and Balabanov have done pretty well for themselves using motivational methods as well as many other trainers on here. And it's not like they don't use any corrections either (I likewise do myself), but the majority of the foundation is motivational.


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## Shade Whitesel

Oh can I join this thread???? Just trained Reik the scent articles in 5 sessions with the clicker! How many sessions does it take with the Koeler method? All those tie downs and stuff. Too much preparation for me.
And by the way he also leaves the raw meat thawing on the counter and has excellent house manners.


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## Don Turnipseed

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Distracting strawman argument, blah blah blah. Anyways, what's in bold is about the only correct thing you've said the whole thread. And a good trainer knows when to try something else, whether it's another way to motivate a dog or maybe to go to physical compulsion, if you're so inclined. But it all goes back to you not even understand the simplest fundamentals of the one you're dissing. Otherwise it's like doing a movie review of a movie you haven't even seen, but just sort of heard about second or third hand. Go and read, watch, learn, and try and THEN come back and comment. Think of it as a challenge. :smile:


Don't need to know any more about it than I do Maren. Think about it. Motivational training is not new, been around as long as dog training just switched praise to clickers or what ever you may choose. Then motivational has more gurus that anyone can keep up with. The have switched off every so often for years. You got Ion Dunbar, Pat Miller, Jean Donaldson, Andrea Arden, Rene Ruso, Karen Prior and the list goes on forever. Each one has a different gimick. I would have no idea which one to even start with. The funny thing is Koehler has trained the best, for the best and his methods work. They worked then, they work now.


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## Shade Whitesel

This "discussion" always cracks me up! It's always my method is better than yours... I train dogs faster than you, etc.... I am sure that all of us can cite example after example of both methods working faster than others. 
Don't you think that consistancy is actually the key? If my dog requires a foot stomp to stay off the counter at 2 months old and that's all it takes and another person's dog requires a good boy and a couple treats for staying off the counter, and both have results, isn't that what it is about?


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## Jim Nash

I leave for awhile come back and find it's gone from Don using the Koehler method to do some very basic obediance and not believing motivational training can be as effective to now killing livestock a mile away while he has another drink . WTF ! 

It some very basic obediance training for basic manners for gods sake. Nothing too tough and nothing either method should have a problem teaching . You have only trained 1 way using Koehler and did a fine job using that method a method I like too . But you never trained properly using motivation and can't even describe it properly . 

Stick with breeding dogs for nw you do an awesome job but admit it you had a few last night felt a little frisky and got a little in over your head with this Koehler / Motivational training thing . I would say the way you described how you trained the Koehler way you got potential for training , just stay off the sauce and learn more about other ways to train .


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## Maren Bell Jones

Don Turnipseed said:


> Don't need to know any more about it than I do Maren. Think about it. Motivational training is not new, been around as long as dog training *just switched praise to clickers or what ever you may choose.* Then motivational has more gurus that anyone can keep up with. The have switched off every so often for years. You got Ion Dunbar, Pat Miller, Jean Donaldson, Andrea Arden, Rene Ruso, Karen Prior and the list goes on forever. Each one has a different gimick. I would have no idea which one to even start with. The funny thing is Koehler has trained the best, for the best and his methods work. They worked then, they work now.


See, this is what I mean. You do not get the very fundamentals of what you are dissing. When doing clicker/marker training, the marker is NOT a substitute for praise. It is neutral. All it means is the dog did something right in that snap shot of time and that a reward (toy, tug, treat, and/or praise) is coming. So until you research the fundamentals, this is not a discussion on training, just more like an uninformed rant.


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## Lynda Myers

Don Turnipseed said:


> These threads are reminiscent of name that tune. I do have a question for Lynda. Why is it when I train a young dog for 15 to 30 minutes a day for 4 weeks, it is mostly indicative of the dogs retention ability rather than the type of training after a 5 mo layoff.
> 
> On the other hand after months, countless hours, and unmeasurable repetition and treats, when your dog remembers it is because of the excellent training method. Had treats in your pocket didn't you. LOL You still have to reinforce with clicks?? I mean after you started him up again after the layoff?? Of course.
> 
> Jack just did what he was trained to do with someone that never had him on a leash before. No treats...no tricks.


Because pups normally have short memories and if you not using it it possible to lose it. 
Actually no I didn't , remember I was looking to see what might need to be worked on for the trial so did it without any rewards. As if it really were a trial. sorry try again. Another thing he was laid up for a year - year and half not getting worked at all. LOL Just maxing and relaxing being a rug dog(don't let animals on the furniture). It really does take less time to train a dog my way then it does your way. 
Don even when I'm actively training a dog I don't worked more then two sometimes three times a week and if it do work them everyday it's very short may be five minutes. Train just long enough to get a few behaviors in. Unless it's a young pup (8-16 weeks old) then the training sessions might be 5-10 minutes a day, four - five days week. The time I have to spend training a dog as with most depends alot on the free time left after my job. Which I guess would be like most people. Seriously though I really don't train that much which is another good thing over here on the other end of the spectrum. LOL


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## Nicole Stark

Lynda Myers said:


> Because pups normally have short memories and if you not using it it possible to lose it.


Maybe, but I remember being really surprised when I showed my 3+ year old dog a hand signal I taught her as a puppy to bark loud, she had one for quiet and one for loud. I would guess that the last time I had showed it to her she was just a few months old. Even now when I think about that I find it a little odd. But when I got into DDB one of the first things I was told about them is that they never forget a command. It seems a little far fetched but my own experience suggests there's some merit to it.


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## Bob Scott

Don Turnipseed said:


> Here is what I originally said Jim. Never a mentioin of another method....until all the female possies...and Bob of course, came to the methods rescue. Sorry Bob. Now, you were say Jim. LMAO



No "sorry" needed Don. I respect your right to express you opinion and have never taken it personely.
The only reason I did step in was because I get a kick out of seeing how motivational can't be relied on or it takes to long almost as much as you get a kick out of saying it. The big difference is that I've successfully used both methods and more.
I still own a coupler of the Koheler books. "The Koehler Method of Dog Training" and "The Koehler Method of Guard dog Training". Bought them new back in the 60s and trained a few dogs with the methods. They work! No doubt about it but I've been a big believer in trying what's new out of curiosity if nothing more. It's been an education either way. Marker training worked and I very much preferred the attitude of the dog compaired to "some" of what I've seen with Koehler. BOTH can be misused/abused!
There are things that I choose not to do/use but that doesn't mean it doesn't work. I'm still always open to whatever it takes if the need arises.
I respect your skills with the hunting terriers and your goal to keep/breed them as working dogs. Your success has been admirable in those depts but you need to, at the very least, spend the time to see what works and doesn't work before you say how something doesn't work. Even still, if something doesn't work for you doesn't mean it doesn't work for someone else. 
As Jim commented, he uses both methods depending on the dog and what he wants. That's the sign of a good dog trainer!! ;-)


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Don Turnipseed said:


> Very good lynda. One for both sides.
> 
> Now I got a new pup that was corrected twice for going in the kitchen area. Nine weeks old. Two times and he hasn't stepped foot in it since, Training method....foot stomp, foot stomp. That is two foot stomps with verbal NO's attached. Try and do that with two clicks darlin. LOL


So you scared him and you think that's traning genus? Okay, you win. If I stomped my foot at any of my nine week olds they would probably just grab my pants leg.

T


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## Lynda Myers

Don Turnipseed said:


> Anyway, I was just pointing out how well Jack did after such a long layoff and a short training schedule. Glad to hear all the dogs can do it. LOL Don't feel like rehashing BS that has already been hashed. Kind of pointless. I forget Lynda, did that dog of yours pass the BH?


But of course and did it better then the other dogs that day who were dare I say it trained the other way! :-\" All furries too boot He has since added the NWDA WSThttp://www.nwdak9.com/WST.html title to his name this past Oct. Again all trained motivationally including the bitework. Rook's attention during the heeling in the attack on handler was so intense that the judge said it seemed like he wasn't even aware we were doing bitework! Told me I had too much control in my obedience. I really thought that was funny considering Rook has never had any corrections in order to make him focus on me. :mrgreen: If you want better details may be Terrasita will elaborate on our preformance that day.


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## Lynda Myers

maggie fraser said:


> :lol: It's waay waay past my bedtime but I think I may stay up for this one. :lol:
> 
> Maren when you're not talking about vet costs. procedures and set up, you're quite funny!


Isn't she!


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## Lynda Myers

Don Turnipseed said:


> You have never bred a dog but you feel free to critique as an expert. I can say that one thing is obvious regardless of who is using motivational. If it didn't work well with a particualr dog, y'all are convinced they did it wrong. That just crys BS. All methods are not made for every dog. Motivational only went so far for Jennifer with Jager, on the other hand, crank and yank didn't phase him either. With this method, he would have never questioned a thing.


Just back that truck up Gus! The first statement might have applied IF we were talking about BREEDING dogs but we're not. We're discussing training. Something you by your own admission have no experience in beyond basic manners. While most on here have trained to some level a working sports dog. And I might add that you also stated that your dogs are selectively bred against trainability. Which would mean that if you have managed to train any of them to do anything then in this one area your breeding program is a failure. I'm just saying!:-D


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## Don Turnipseed

Lynda Myers said:


> Just back that truck up Gus! The first statement might have applied IF we were talking about BREEDING dogs but we're not. We're discussing training. Something you by your own admission have no experience in beyond basic manners. While most on here have trained to some level a working sports dog. And I might add that you also stated that your dogs are selectively bred against trainability. Which would mean that if you have managed to train any of them to do anything then in this one area your breeding program is a failure. I'm just saying!:-D


That was said in answer to Maren, Lynda. Most everyone understands what I am saying. And you should lay off the sauce if you thing I said my dogs have been selectivly bred against trainability. There is a world of difference in what I said. Poor dear, when you try to put up more than one post at a time you seem to get confused.

And Maren is naive enough to actually believe motivational is new and different. God help us. Motivational training has been around forever. Marker training has been around also. That list of names I gave you Maren, most of which you don't even recognize. They are all motivational trainers of sorts with a different gimmick. Get real, a pat on the head is motivational. What did you repeat that someone else originaloly said. ....A click is a snapshot in time.... LOL so is a pat on the head. Good job. You really think some goof ball just woke up a few years ago and discovered using something positive to get results. I suppose you think they used heavy compulsion to get dogs to ride bikes in circus acts. To get those chickens to play a tune. Yadda yadda. No they used timing and reward. It has been used for trick training forever.....and there are as many varyiations as there are people doing it. When the Mongols useded birds of prey to hunt, how do you think they were trained??? That was a heck of a long time ago. The one thing that is new each time someone reinvents the wheel of training is the terminology. New verbage makes it seem all new. No one even knows what the other is talking about any more.

I am familiar with motivation. and there are times I have used it. As a rule for what I want, once again, I am not into carrying around a sack of diversion toys, favorite ball and tugs. I am not going to walk around with a dog staring into my eyes because I have a pocket of hot dogs. There has been a couple that giggled as they said I just want a little basic obedience. That is right. I don't want it, I get it. Ninety percent of what you guys are striving for, and can't get, is obedience. .....those in this conversation don't even seem to know that. LMAO Obedience is the big thing in ri9ng sports and weighs in in Schutzhund. Bitework isn't the real big thi8ng. Dog bites o0r he doesn't. It is the obedience.


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## Don Turnipseed

Something y'all to think about in how new motivation is. People have been making sharp clicking sounds, kissing s and clucking sounds at animals since animals have been around us. animals respond well to those crisp clear sounds. They clucked at the horses pulling wagons and buggies just before the command to go. It was customary to snap your fingers at the dogs as you said "come". What is fairly new is the "need" to reward for every move. That is pretty new and has more to do with human needs than animal needs. Animals just don't need much more than a pat on the head and an atta boy.


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## Lynda Myers

Don Turnipseed said:


> That was said in answer to Maren, Lynda. Most everyone understands what I am saying. And you should lay off the sauce if you thing I said my dogs have been selectivly bred against trainability. There is a world of difference in what I said. Poor dear, when you try to put up more than one post at a time you seem to get confused.
> 
> And Maren is naive enough to actually believe motivational is new and different. God help us. Motivational training has been around forever. Marker training has been around also. That list of names I gave you Maren, most of which you don't even recognize. They are all motivational trainers of sorts with a different gimmick. Get real, a pat on the head is motivational. What did you repeat that someone else originaloly said. ....A click is a snapshot in time.... LOL so is a pat on the head. Good job. You really think some goof ball just woke up a few years ago and discovered using something positive to get results. I suppose you think they used heavy compulsion to get dogs to ride bikes in circus acts. To get those chickens to play a tune. Yadda yadda. No they used timing and reward. It has been used for trick training forever.....and there are as many varyiations as there are people doing it. When the Mongols useded birds of prey to hunt, how do you think they were trained??? That was a heck of a long time ago. The one thing that is new each time someone reinvents the wheel of training is the terminology. New verbage makes it seem all new. No one even knows what the other is talking about any more.
> 
> I am familiar with motivation. and there are times I have used it. As a rule for what I want, once again, I am not into carrying around a sack of diversion toys, favorite ball and tugs. I am not going to walk around with a dog staring into my eyes because I have a pocket of hot dogs. There has been a couple that giggled as they said I just want a little basic obedience. That is right. I don't want it, I get it. Ninety percent of what you guys are striving for, and can't get, is obedience. .....those in this conversation don't even seem to know that. LMAO Obedience is the big thing in ri9ng sports and weighs in in Schutzhund. Bitework isn't the real big thi8ng. Dog bites o0r he doesn't. It is the obedience.


Well you used the word" trainability'"which means easy to teach. The word you probably should have used is bidability - the willingness to do what the handler wishes above the dogs own desire to do something. Now as far as motivationally training being old or young makes no never mind to me. But the tone of your words with regard to this method sounds a lot like it couldn't possibly have progressed or been improved upon over the years.[-X News flash only dead things stop growing.
Don being familiar with something doesn't necessarily mean one is proficient at it.


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## Lynda Myers

Don Turnipseed said:


> Something y'all to think about in how new motivation is. People have been making sharp clicking sounds, kissing s and clucking sounds at animals since animals have been around us. animals respond well to those crisp clear sounds. They clucked at the horses pulling wagons and buggies just before the command to go. It was customary to snap your fingers at the dogs as you said "come". What is fairly new is the "need" to reward for every move. That is pretty new and has more to do with human needs than animal needs. Animals just don't need much more than a pat on the head and an atta boy.


No it's a known fact that everyone works better when their efforts are rewarded this includes animals. Sure in the good ole days people and animals worked whether it was pleasant or not. But research has shown that production and morale are much better when you reward or praise for a job/behavior well done. And increasing the likehood of it being repeated. Just because it used to be done a certain way doesn't necessarily mean it should continue to be.


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## Alice Bezemer

Don Turnipseed said:


> Something y'all to think about in how new motivation is. People have been making sharp clicking sounds, kissing s and clucking sounds at animals since animals have been around us. animals respond well to those crisp clear sounds. They clucked at the horses pulling wagons and buggies just before the command to go. It was customary to snap your fingers at the dogs as you said "come". What is fairly new is the "need" to reward for every move. That is pretty new and has more to do with human needs than animal needs. Animals just don't need much more than a pat on the head and an atta boy.


Amen !

people forgot somewhere that a dog is a dog and not a HUMAN...the problems always start when they bring the human aspect into the dogs raising or training....dog is dog....treat it dogworthy and not as WE would like to be treated...it wont make **** all sence to the dog and confuse it more often then teach it anything...

just my $ 5,=


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## Don Turnipseed

Understanding "my" dogs is far easier than understanding how you compute things in your brain Lynda. I left out one other difference in the above post and will try to explain it so you can understand it.
Dogs learn best...and fastest....because something is either comfortable and that makes it a good thing and they will readilly repeat it. That is what motivational training is these days....all good. The other side of the coin is that dogs learn just as fast if something is not comfortable. This causes the dog not to want to repeat it. You don't need to try and BS me about how they learn fastest from a good experience. They learn just as fast from bad ones. The difference I didn't mention is that makes motivation somewhat different, is that the modern day guru's have eliminated the side that is uncomfortable. You have effectively eliminmate one whole phase that a dog needs to learn to be balanced. Then one day you pressure the dog and he caves in because he isn't used to it. Surprise!! Surprise!! 

Since you have effectively remove the dog from learning that there can be consequenses for bad stuff, is why motivational training will always be self limiting...paricularily with dogs like mine. They are quick learners and will do what a person askes....until they decide not to. You can throw a pinch collar on them and try to yard them into compliance and they will sit there with tail wagging no matter how hard you apply the correction. On the other hand with Koehler, you don't ask anything of the dog until he has learned to pay attention to you only. It is all about comfort zones. Wouldn't hurt you and Maren at all to try it so you can mount a credible defense.

To further explain . I do use motivation if I want to teach a dog to do something different on cue. Yes, I will "bribe" them into doing it. Even I use motivational and have for years. Basic manners I expect is not done on cue, there is no reward for getting in the trash or any of a number of things that have to due with basic good manners. Nor am I going to hide the trash in the closet and call it good. I can go outside right now and snap a leash on Jack and he will literally drag me around the yard. I do not correct him for a good reason. I snapped the leash on his regular collar. If I want to see the dog at his best, I slip the choker on him and he knows it is time to work. I don't claim to be a trainer like you do, but I know how to make a dog do what I want without making a big deal out of it. A simple pat on the head at the right time and they will die for me.

No, I am not a trainer, but I can take my dogs and turn them loose in the wilderness, sit down and have something to eat, move the truck a mile down the road and I have never lost a dog yet. I can't say how many times the dogs have been out 1,2,3 days in the wilderness. I go home and sleep like a baby. Just because I don't do dogs sports per se, doesn't mean the dogs only have to know house manners as the discussion suggests.


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## maggie fraser

Alice Bezemer said:


> Amen !
> 
> people forgot somewhere that a dog is a dog and not a HUMAN...the problems always start when they bring the human aspect into the dogs raising or training....dog is dog....treat it dogworthy and not as WE would like to be treated...it wont make **** all sence to the dog and confuse it more often then teach it anything...
> 
> just my $ 5,=


What is dog worthy Alice ? Treating it with respect and providing opportunity for it to learn now that we know a little more about dogs than what we used to know? It's just a different approach to plain ol' force, it's not about people anthromonopolising, at least I don't think so on here.

This thread was a bum steer from the get go, we've been over it all and more not so long ago!


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## Alice Bezemer

maggie fraser said:


> What is dog worthy Alice ? Treating it with respect and providing opportunity for it to learn now that we know a little more about dogs than what we used to know? It's just a different approach to plain ol' force, it's not about people anthromonopolising, at least I don't think so on here.
> 
> This thread was a bum steer from the get go, we've been over it all and more not so long ago!


I dont think Dogworthy/Dogrespectfull is that hard to understand, treat the dog in a dog manner and not a human manner is what im saying.

Yes treat it with respect and provide it opportunity to learn, specialy since we have learned so much about dogs and what makes them tick.....the thing is this tho....you tend to call it plain ole force where i tend to call it action/reaction....and force isnt always in the picture as most people suspect...its the way we deal that are different, where as you might give a click i will give a pat on the head, where as you might reward for a job well done with with sweets i will reward with a GOOD BOY or again a pat on the head...

I tend to think of it like this: the perfect example is nature itself...we all want to stand at the head of our socalled packs....we want to be in charge of our packs and be viewed as the Alpha...so lets act like the Alpha as its supposed to be....nature shows that any action will be rewarded with the appropriate reaction....so thats how i handle my dogs if hes bad he gets punished accordingly if hes good he gets rewarded accordingly...but he gets rewarded like a dog! no treats or sweets or clickers or whistles blowing or whatever....why not ? never seen an alpha yet that went looking for treats or his clicker to reward a lesser packmember...did see alpha's doing their job giving reaction to whatever action set before them. Now this doesnt mean the dog should be kicked or hit or whatever, or that force should be applied, it means to use your head and think about what a dog is and not about how we feel our dog might feel coze all we are doing is bringing human emotions and traits to a dog that have no place there to begin with...its a dog it does not percieve things the same way as we do. keep it crisp, clear, to the point and black and white. keep it simple and honest and you will have a happy dog.....a happy dog knows its place


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## Don Turnipseed

MMmmm,


> it means to use your head and think about what a dog is and not about how we feel our dog might feel


. Good luck with that.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Don Turnipseed said:


> That was said in answer to Maren, Lynda. Most everyone understands what I am saying. And you should lay off the sauce if you thing I said my dogs have been selectivly bred against trainability. There is a world of difference in what I said. Poor dear, when you try to put up more than one post at a time you seem to get confused.
> 
> And Maren is naive enough to actually believe motivational is new and different. God help us. Motivational training has been around forever. Marker training has been around also.


ROFLMAO, you SERIOUSLY believe that someone with a bachelor's and masters degree in biology and 5 months from being done with my doctorate in veterinary medicine believes that motivational training is NEW? :lol::lol::lol: Any freshman in college taking psych 101 should be able to tell you about Pavlov and BF Skinner, who started the basis for classical and operant conditioning, about a century ago. 




> That list of names I gave you Maren, most of which you don't even recognize. They are all motivational trainers of sorts with a different gimmick. Get real, a pat on the head is motivational. What did you repeat that someone else originaloly said. ....A click is a snapshot in time.... LOL so is a pat on the head. Good job.


*

WRONG AGAIN. Repeat after me: a marker is NEUTRAL. It is BY DEFINITION NOT in and of itself motivational. *You could use a pat on the head to mark something if you wanted to, but not in a rewarding way. The dog would also have to be very close to pat it, so its usefulness would be limited. Just admit you don't get it. It's pretty much apparent to everyone anyways.



> You really think some goof ball just woke up a few years ago and discovered using something positive to get results. I suppose you think they used heavy compulsion to get dogs to ride bikes in circus acts. To get those chickens to play a tune. Yadda yadda. No they used timing and reward. It has been used for trick training forever.....and there are as many varyiations as there are people doing it. When the Mongols useded birds of prey to hunt, how do you think they were trained??? That was a heck of a long time ago. The one thing that is new each time someone reinvents the wheel of training is the terminology. New verbage makes it seem all new. No one even knows what the other is talking about any more.


One thing that's abundantly clear is that you're the one here who doesn't know the terminology. So what exactly is your point in contention again? The beauty of marker training beyond regular motivational training is its precision that it will get you there faster as its clearer to the animal. I don't know how the Mongols hunted with birds of prey, but I'm a little familiar with Western falconry and a friend of mine is working toward their master falconer's license. And yes, they use motivation for the raptors, who have typically been wild caught as young birds. 



> I am familiar with motivation. and there are times I have used it. As a rule for what I want, once again, I am not into carrying around a sack of diversion toys, favorite ball and tugs. I am not going to walk around with a dog staring into my eyes because I have a pocket of hot dogs. There has been a couple that giggled as they said I just want a little basic obedience. That is right. I don't want it, I get it. Ninety percent of what you guys are striving for, and can't get, is obedience. .....those in this conversation don't even seem to know that. LMAO Obedience is the big thing in ri9ng sports and weighs in in Schutzhund. Bitework isn't the real big thi8ng. Dog bites o0r he doesn't. It is the obedience.


What is your point again? Heeling with attention, whether you or anyone else likes it or not, is desired in what we train in. Why are you even in the conversation if you have nothing to add and have no plans on doing protection sport? Whether doing a suit sport (ring, PSA, KNPV) or Schutzhund, you cannot have bitework without obedience. And who says we're all failing at obedience? I train with Lynda and she does well with her obedience in a breed not known for real flashy obedience. I get along fine with mine. If something's not working, I just ask those I train with and we problem solve. I use physical compulsion if I must when I train, but honestly, since I work most obedience in PSA off leash anyways, it's not often even necessary.


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## Jim Nash

Alice Bezemer said:


> I dont think Dogworthy/Dogrespectfull is that hard to understand, treat the dog in a dog manner and not a human manner is what im saying.
> 
> Yes treat it with respect and provide it opportunity to learn, specialy since we have learned so much about dogs and what makes them tick.....the thing is this tho....you tend to call it plain ole force where i tend to call it action/reaction....and force isnt always in the picture as most people suspect...its the way we deal that are different, where as you might give a click i will give a pat on the head, where as you might reward for a job well done with with sweets i will reward with a GOOD BOY or again a pat on the head...
> 
> I tend to think of it like this: the perfect example is nature itself...we all want to stand at the head of our socalled packs....we want to be in charge of our packs and be viewed as the Alpha...so lets act like the Alpha as its supposed to be....nature shows that any action will be rewarded with the appropriate reaction....so thats how i handle my dogs if hes bad he gets punished accordingly if hes good he gets rewarded accordingly...but he gets rewarded like a dog! no treats or sweets or clickers or whistles blowing or whatever....why not ? never seen an alpha yet that went looking for treats or his clicker to reward a lesser packmember...did see alpha's doing their job giving reaction to whatever action set before them. Now this doesnt mean the dog should be kicked or hit or whatever, or that force should be applied, it means to use your head and think about what a dog is and not about how we feel our dog might feel coze all we are doing is bringing human emotions and traits to a dog that have no place there to begin with...its a dog it does not percieve things the same way as we do. keep it crisp, clear, to the point and black and white. keep it simple and honest and you will have a happy dog.....a happy dog knows its place


I agree with this to a point . I'm one for having as many training tools under my belt as possible because when I was a PSD trainer and ran into all sorts of dogs with different personalities . I'm not one for humanizing a dog but the other thing you are missing in your explaintion is we are teaching dogs very undog like behaviors . I've never seen an Alpha tell another to sit , down , track , article search , climb a latter , jump a fence or apprehend a human . 

I don't walk around with food or a toy while working my fully trained PSD because I need it for them to listen to me . But I did use it while teaching behaviors . It works for me because I see a dog as a dog . That being , part of what a dog is for me is one that is trying to satify himself the easiest way he can . If we offer him something that really excites and keeps him focused on performing a behavior he may not intiatially like doing but learns the payoff is worth it then he well learn it faster and better . 

Having trained dozens and dozens of PSDs intitially starting with the more Koehler approach years ago ( good boy , pat on the head some play time) that by adding even more motivation while intitially teaching new behaviors have given me dogs that perfom the behaviors better and faster in the long run when I eventually remove most of the food , toy rewards down the road and expect them to do it on my command only . 

Experiance with training many new PSDs have shown me the more enthusiasm and energy I can building into train gives me better performance in the long run . Though we had good dogs when I started I think when it comes to the OB stuff we have much better dogs nowadays just because we learned to teach it better with more motivation . 

I train a dog knowing it's a dog and that I'm a human manipulating him into doing behaviors that are very undog like for my (the human's) needs . Sure compulsion and corrections certainly come into play but I also know the more I can manipulate that dog into liking what I want him to do will in most cases give me better performance then if I have to compel , guide or correct a dog while teaching it . 

I don't believe in 100% positive nor do I believe a simple pat on the head , good boy is going to get me the performance I want . 

For me I think Don and Lynda are 2 peas in a pod . I think both are missing out on the benefits the others form of training can bring if they learned it well and added it to their toolboxes .


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## Don Turnipseed

I would be embarrassed to list those credentials. Are they supposed to magically make your statements more credible??? Just curious.



> WRONG AGAIN. Repeat after me: a marker is NEUTRAL. It is BY DEFINITION NOT in and of itself motivational. You could use a pat on the head to mark something if you wanted to, but not in a rewarding way. The dog would also have to be very close to pat it, so its usefulness would be limited. Just admit you don't get it. It's pretty much apparent to everyone anyways.


By the way, the dog doesn't have to be in reach for verbal praise, but you are right, for a pat on the head it works best if they are within reach. I think that is why it is an either or proposition. LOL Even a list of degrees isn't going to help you.

The clicker is neutral? Yes dogs are far to dumb to know that whenever he does something right that YOU click and treat. Maybe I am just not as gullible as you are. I got to wonder how all my dogs know when I am just walking across the living room to the door, and are waiting at the gate, before I even open it if they are that dumb. If you believe that then your dogs got the jump on you by a far piece.


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## Ben Colbert

Don Turnipseed said:


> The clicker is neutral? Yes dogs are far to dumb to know that whenever he does something right that YOU click and treat. Maybe I am just not as gullible as you are. I got to wonder how all my dogs know when I am just walking across the living room to the door, and are waiting at the gate, before I even open it if they are that dumb. If you believe that then your dogs got the jump on you by a far piece.



You are embarrassing yourself. Of course the clicker is neutral. You could just as easily smack the dog on the head after each behavior. Then you would use the clicker to mark an incorrect behavior. The clicker simply marks a behavior. Its up to you to decide if its a behavior you want to see repeated or not.


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## Thomas Barriano

Ben Colbert said:


> You are embarrassing yourself. Of course the clicker is neutral. You could just as easily smack the dog on the head after each behavior. Then you would use the clicker to mark an incorrect behavior. The clicker simply marks a behavior. Its up to you to decide if its a behavior you want to see repeated or not.


Ben,

There are people embarrassing themselves but it isn't Don.
Do you know anyone that uses a clicker to mark BAD behavior or unwanted behavior? A clicker not only marks a desired behavior it predicts reward. Using a clicker to mark a bad or unwanted behavior and then punishment, just boggles the mind.
Thanks for the pointer to your blog. I haven't laughed that hard since I watched a K9 Pro Sports video


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## Maren Bell Jones

Don Turnipseed said:


> I would be embarrassed to list those credentials. Are they supposed to magically make your statements more credible??? Just curious.


While you may not be college educated, I did expect you to be able to read, right? You said I am naive enough to think positive/marker training is new. Which neither believe, nor have ever believed, nor have I ever stated. I have known for quite some time both have the background from the science that started a century ago. My education is part of the reason I know this (though you certainly don't have to be college educated, as come to think of it, I first learned about Pavlov and Skinner in 8th grade). And yes, as a matter of fact,"cred"entials do indeed make you more "cred"ible. From the Latin root "cred-", meaning "to believe." ;-)



> By the way, the dog doesn't have to be in reach for verbal praise, but you are right, for a pat on the head it works best if they are within reach. I think that is why it is an either or proposition. LOL Even a list of degrees isn't going to help you.
> 
> The clicker is neutral? Yes dogs are far to dumb to know that whenever he does something right that YOU click and treat. Maybe I am just not as gullible as you are. I got to wonder how all my dogs know when I am just walking across the living room to the door, and are waiting at the gate, before I even open it if they are that dumb. If you believe that then your dogs got the jump on you by a far piece.


No, try to keep up. The clicker/marker is neutral in the sense the sound just means "you did something right, a reward is coming." It can come from you clicking the clicker or giving the marker word or someone else. Who it is coming from does not really matter. When I train in PSA, the decoys can even do this in that they can give the marker word "yes" followed by a reward bite, particularly if they can see from their angle the dog is doing something correctly that I can't see on the other end of the leash. I believe Lynda has had the decoy even hold a clicker before, which is fine too. The clicker/marker itself is NOT the reward. It just means the reward is coming.


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## Ben Colbert

Thomas,

The point was the clicker is neutral. Just like anything else that has no inherent meaning before its paired with a stimulus (i.e the jiggle the door knob, the sound of the leash etc). If you never pair the clicker with a positive stimuli will the dog ever care about it? No. 

As far as my blog goes I would appreciate specific feedback. I posted it here so i can get advice. You see I have a fairly extensive knowledge of theory but have some bad habits and limited hands on work compared to some of you guys. I posted the video on here and was critiqued pretty well. I'm now much livelier when training.


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## Gerry Grimwood

What will you people do when your knees make as much noise as your toys ,you'll be marking behaviour with every step :razz:


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## Ashley Campbell

The clicker is neutral until you associate it with something, but not all marker training is neutral. The happy "Yes!" is not neutral. Your dog is smart enough to know that what he did elicited a happy response before he's given the treat.

It is NOT neutral because you and the dog associate reward with the sound. It's like an ice-cream truck. My kids hear that sound for blocks, they come running. The sound is technically "neutral" since it's just music, but they hear that sound and think "OHHHHH ICECREAM". Associating something good with a sound. The kids do the same damn thing if you open a candy wrapper. 

Just like a dog with a clicker. You click, it thinks "OHHHHHH TREATS/PRAISE/SOMETHING GOOD".

You don't use a marker to mark incorrect behavior either, you ignore the incorrect and mark the correct so the dog repeats the correct behavior to receive the reward.

The opposite is also true. If I raise my voice at one of my kids, even the dog finds somewhere else to be because it knows that the raised voice = not so happy person.

All the same, I've had no luck with marker training.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Ashley Campbell said:


> The clicker is neutral until you associate it with something, but not all marker training is neutral. The happy "Yes!" is not neutral. Your dog is smart enough to know that what he did elicited a happy response before he's given the treat.


Interestingly, that's why some of the clicker purists don't like using a verbal marker because they don't want emotion in the human voice associated with the marker. 



> It is NOT neutral because you and the dog associate reward with the sound. It's like an ice-cream truck. My kids hear that sound for blocks, they come running. The sound is technically "neutral" since it's just music, but they hear that sound and think "OHHHHH ICECREAM". Associating something good with a sound. The kids do the same damn thing if you open a candy wrapper.
> 
> Just like a dog with a clicker. You click, it thinks "OHHHHHH TREATS/PRAISE/SOMETHING GOOD".


Yes, it is. The sound, whether it is the sound of an ice cream truck or a bell with Pavlov's dog, is ITSELF neutral. The music or bell itself is not a reward. It _signals_ a reward or something positive is coming because it was _paired_ with a reward. It's a subtle distinction, but one that goes all the way back to Pavlov. If someone blasts loud rap music and drives through your neighborhood, why don't your kids come running? Because there is no reward (ice cream) paired with the music. The music, whether ice cream truck music or rap music, is intrinsically neutral UNLESS it is paired with the reward. Now your kids know that ice cream truck music means ice cream, but unless someone told them or unless they just happened to wander out on their own with change in their pocket, the music/ice cream pairing wouldn't exist to them. Does that make sense?



> You don't use a marker to mark incorrect behavior either, you ignore the incorrect and mark the correct so the dog repeats the correct behavior to receive the reward.
> 
> The opposite is also true. If I raise my voice at one of my kids, even the dog finds somewhere else to be because it knows that the raised voice = not so happy person.
> 
> All the same, I've had no luck with marker training.


That's not strictly true either. You can chose to ignore the behavior if you want, or give a no reward marker. Just means "that's not what I want, try again."


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## Maren Bell Jones

Gerry Grimwood said:


> What will you people do when your knees make as much noise as your toys ,you'll be marking behaviour with every step :razz:


Gerry, when I get that age, I think I'll go train in that tracking sport Pistage that Tashi posted a video for. Just have someone lay the track, prop my feet up and let my dog run the track off leash and bring me the article at the end. My kinda sport. 8)


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## Don Turnipseed

Unfortunatly guy and gals. I am going to have to bow out of this discussion at this point. By my own admission, I am not a dog trainer. I am humbled by the expertise I have encountered in this thread. I am now left a hollow shell if ignorance . It was pointed out that I was embarrassing myself. I have no desire to do that. Looking back at This post, I am reminded of an interesting hunting experience I had a few years ago, which I will share with you.

"We were out with the hounds and they got on a fox. Foxes tend to run large, repetative circles and, knowing that, myself and my parter moved down the mountain for a better vantage point from which to watch the race. The fox was making a large circle inside of a steep canyon and we could easily see most of the race that took place on the far side. We waited patiently for the race to come into view. Here they came, the fox well out in front, hounds a bit back but out of sight. As the fox came through a large clearing of high grass, he made a gigantic leap which put him a good 10' off the trail and fully hidden by the tall grass. He layed down. Shortly the hounds came blazing through because they knew they were close to a kill. After the pack of blood thirsty hounds had gone by, the fox leaped back onto the trail and happly went down the back track...laughing to himself I am sure."

There is a point to the story and that is why this thread was so reminiscent of that particular hunt.

Have a good one!


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## Maren Bell Jones

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Now your kids know that ice cream truck music means ice cream, but unless someone told them or unless they just happened to wander out on their own with change in their pocket, the music/ice cream pairing wouldn't exist to them.


Forgot to add, that's also why you have to "charge" the clicker or the marker word before you start. Otherwise it doesn't mean anything. Ashley, I'm curious what you were training with marker training that wasn't working for you? Maybe we can give some suggestions.


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## Lynda Myers

Don Turnipseed said:


> That was said in answer to Maren, Lynda. Most everyone understands what I am saying. And you should lay off the sauce if you thing I said my dogs have been selectivly bred against trainability. There is a world of difference in what I said. Poor dear, when you try to put up more than one post at a time you seem to get confused.
> 
> And Maren is naive enough to actually believe motivational is new and different. God help us. Motivational training has been around forever. Marker training has been around also. That list of names I gave you Maren, most of which you don't even recognize. They are all motivational trainers of sorts with a different gimmick. Get real, a pat on the head is motivational. What did you repeat that someone else originaloly said. ....A click is a snapshot in time.... LOL so is a pat on the head. Good job. You really think some goof ball just woke up a few years ago and discovered using something positive to get results. I suppose you think they used heavy compulsion to get dogs to ride bikes in circus acts. To get those chickens to play a tune. Yadda yadda. No they used timing and reward. It has been used for trick training forever.....and there are as many varyiations as there are people doing it. When the Mongols useded birds of prey to hunt, how do you think they were trained??? That was a heck of a long time ago. The one thing that is new each time someone reinvents the wheel of training is the terminology. New verbage makes it seem all new. No one even knows what the other is talking about any more.
> 
> I am familiar with motivation. and there are times I have used it. As a rule for what I want, once again, I am not into carrying around a sack of diversion toys, favorite ball and tugs. I am not going to walk around with a dog staring into my eyes because I have a pocket of hot dogs. There has been a couple that giggled as they said I just want a little basic obedience. That is right. I don't want it, I get it. Ninety percent of what you guys are striving for, and can't get, is obedience. .....those in this conversation don't even seem to know that. LMAO Obedience is the big thing in ri9ng sports and weighs in in Schutzhund. Bitework isn't the real big thi8ng. Dog bites o0r he doesn't. It is the obedience.


So obedience is the big thing...OK then tell me what obedience means to you and then please explain how it differs from what the rest of us are training for or getting from our dogs.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Don Turnipseed said:


> \"We were out with the hounds and they got on a fox. *Foxes tend to run large, repetative circles* and, knowing that, myself and my parter moved down the mountain for a better vantage point from which to watch the race. The fox was making a large circle inside of a steep canyon and we could easily see most of the race that took place on the far side. We waited patiently for the race to come into view. Here they came, the fox well out in front, hounds a bit back but out of sight. As the fox came through a large clearing of high grass, he made a gigantic leap which put him a good 10' off the trail and fully hidden by the tall grass. He layed down. Shortly the hounds came blazing through because they knew they were close to a kill. After the pack of blood thirsty hounds had gone by, the fox leaped back onto the trail and happly went down the back track...laughing to himself I am sure."
> 
> There is a point to the story and that is why this thread was so reminiscent of that particular hunt.
> 
> Have a good one!


So you saying you run in large, repetitive circles? :-k :lol: Has to be the second time I agree with you in a night. Must be a new record. :mrgreen:


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## Lynda Myers

Jim Nash said:


> For me I think Don and Lynda are 2 peas in a pod . I think both are missing out on the benefits the others form of training can bring if they learned it well and added it to their toolboxes .


No Jim, because I unlike Don have trained using the others method..Kohler. I trained several dogs with it. But now use motivation and have trained 4 dogs total using it. true it's not very many dogs but I only just learned the method roughly five years ago. Rook just got his NWDA WST (ob and protection) http://www.nwdak9.com/WST.html and I hope to earn our PDC and PSA1 at our club trial in April.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Incidentally, I do think it takes something to admit when you don't know about something (even surrounded by sarcasm). Really though, Don, give it an honest study and an honest try. More fun than Koehler exercises, that much is true.


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## Jim Nash

Don Turnipseed said:


> Unfortunatly guy and gals. I am going to have to bow out of this discussion at this point. By my own admission, I am not a dog trainer. I am humbled by the expertise I have encountered in this thread. I am now left a hollow shell if ignorance . It was pointed out that I was embarrassing myself. I have no desire to do that. Looking back at This post, I am reminded of an interesting hunting experience I had a few years ago, which I will share with you.
> 
> "We were out with the hounds and they got on a fox. Foxes tend to run large, repetative circles and, knowing that, myself and my parter moved down the mountain for a better vantage point from which to watch the race. The fox was making a large circle inside of a steep canyon and we could easily see most of the race that took place on the far side. We waited patiently for the race to come into view. Here they came, the fox well out in front, hounds a bit back but out of sight. As the fox came through a large clearing of high grass, he made a gigantic leap which put him a good 10' off the trail and fully hidden by the tall grass. He layed down. Shortly the hounds came blazing through because they knew they were close to a kill. After the pack of blood thirsty hounds had gone by, the fox leaped back onto the trail and happly went down the back track...laughing to himself I am sure."
> 
> There is a point to the story and that is why this thread was so reminiscent of that particular hunt.
> 
> Have a good one!



I must say I see it too . You did a great job of throwing this discussion off into a what is now a debate about what is a marker and they took the bait . 

Instead of what the original topic was about and that was your successes using the Koehler method in teaching some very basic obediance and how it quote; " With the short time I actually trained him , no one will ever convince me the can get that out of motivational training . " . When you never have even tried to accomplish the same thing using motivational training . 

Regardless of that though this discussin was bound to run in circles anyways . One good thing I did get from reading your babble though is you are willing to come out of the mountains from time to time and drive a couple of hours for a woman . 

Anyways while you're backtracking I gotta give it to you , you are sly like a fox .


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## Jim Nash

Lynda Myers said:


> No Jim, because I unlike Don have trained using the others method..Kohler. I trained several dogs with it. But now use motivation and have trained 4 dogs total using it. true it's not very many dogs but I only just learned the method roughly five years ago. Rook just got his NWDA WST (ob and protection) http://www.nwdak9.com/WST.html and I hope to earn our PDC and PSA1 at our club trial in April.



I understand that and I still stand buy what I said .


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## Ashley Campbell

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Forgot to add, that's also why you have to "charge" the clicker or the marker word before you start. Otherwise it doesn't mean anything. Ashley, I'm curious what you were training with marker training that wasn't working for you? Maybe we can give some suggestions.


Nope I'm not getting into that, I've found it to be rather useless with the dogs I've used it on - this old dog doesn't want to learn new tricks, especially from someone who believes in, of all things, VETS :O

LOL, j/k - on a serious note I use positive and negative with training my house pets. Sit's when asked, might get a treat or young ones get baited into a sit, skips the "marker" part because they get the treat without a "sound" to associate - I can't do that happy high pitched voice stuff - pisses on the floor and knows better = booted out the door. Failing that I've used some of Koehlers methods (in fact a favorite of mine is the learning recall with a long line - seems to have worked every time for me because they associate not coming to something bad like doing a backflip at the end of the rope) I can't get into the whole touchy-feely "no negativity" crap. *shrug*

Now here's the kicker Maren. My kids come running for the ice-cream truck due to the sound...but I NEVER buy ice-cream from the truck, nor have I ever. Probably because I never carry cash around the house but when that ice-cream toting bastard parks in my cul-de-sac with the music blaring I just want to shoot him, not give him money. 
Now you could say it's because they can read. Nope, 2/3 cannot read yet (the 4 and 2 year old) but all the same they're glued to the window when that bozo shows up. Learned behavior from their older brother? Perhaps.


I blame the TV.


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## Maren Bell Jones

See, ice cream trucks always freak me out. Too many stories of creepers and serial killers. 8-[ :-o I likewise blame the TV. Or movies. Or books. :lol:

Regarding marker training, my oldest dog is a 13-15ish year old husky/Rottweiler mix. I've never really used marker training on him as he was just a failed foster. Got his CGC in a busy Petco no problem though when he was about 8 or 9. My second oldest dog is a 11 year old Rottweiler. I don't think I really used much marker training on her either, except when I crash coursed her into going from knowing sit only to passing the CGC in 3 days right after I adopted her 2 years ago. She also pass her behavior evaluation for therapy work with our therapy club. I don't use much in the way of commands with her for herding either. She just kind of goes and gets me sheep and if *I* am where I need to be (ALWAYS a challenge, LOL), she usually figures out the rest. So with those two, I just didn't absolutely need a high level of precision for basic obedience, so I don't train extensively with markers for those two, if at all.

But my main training dog Fawkes, we use marker training extensively, particularly for obedience for PSA, and need to use almost no physical correction. And we also use physical correction extensively for herding as he is very, very fast and prey drive often overrides stock sense (just switched from a prong collar to an e-collar and is already working better). It's a misconception that people who use marker training are "soft" or "purely positive" trainers, cause I'm really not. I've gotten the [-X from some herding folks for being too hard on him during herding, but then again, they usually have very soft dogs that need cheerleading and do not have his ridiculous attraction to stock. Fortunately we are making much better progress with the e-collar. I hope I'll make a good stock dog out of him once the brain engages. 8) So I am neither a clicker trainer nor an e-collar trainer, but one who uses a clicker or a corrective collar as the situation necessitates. If I need a pretty high level of precision, marker training seems to be the way to go and the best bang for the buck. I'll hopefully start to trial a bit next year, so time will tell, but I will say it's more fun for everybody. But if you want some basic pet manners, sure, there's no written law in stone that says you must use marker training.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

And we also use physical correction extensively for herding as he is very, very fast and prey drive often overrides stock sense (just switched from a prong collar to an e-collar and is already working better). It's a misconception that people who use marker training are "soft" or "purely positive" trainers, cause I'm really not. I've gotten the [-X from some herding folks for being too hard on him during herding, but then again, they usually have very soft dogs that need cheerleading and do not have his ridiculous attraction to stock. Fortunately we are making much better progress with the e-collar. I hope I'll make a good stock dog out of him once the brain engages. 8).[/QUOTE]


Actually, I work a hgh prey dog and none of mine are soft and need cheerleading. Quite the contrary. If you choose to use e-collars and extensve correction, that's by choice. It doesn't mean based on type that he necessarily requires that in herding. There are other ways of dealing with his issues. Just so others know if they are contemplating herding.

Terrasita


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## Bob Scott

Don said;
"Dogs learn best...and fastest....because something is either comfortable and that makes it a good thing and they will readilly repeat it. That is what motivational training is these days....all good."

You would be amaized at how a highly driven dog will do/learn just about anything for a reward. That reward could be anything from a treat, toy or even a bite. 
I've seen many, many highly driven dogs that learn the way to get the bite is as simple as a glance at the handler. You build from that and in a very short time the dog can be drilling a hole in you with it's eyes in order to get that treat, toy or bite.
Loss of reward for that highly driven dog can be just as negative as a physical correction.
Again, I will never say the only way to get compliance is either/or.


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## Maren Bell Jones

The problem we feel is not even that he'll grip and bite (which can be solved easily enough with a muzzle), but that he'll build up a head of steam since he's so fast and run one into the fence. He's just not a good newbie dog where less than a second for him is about the same as 3-4 seconds for the average corgi or collie that we train with. Even if I can't ever trial with him, I at least need him safe around stock since I would like some in the near future when I move. Almost thought about temporarily retiring him from herding until he's considerably older and more mature but I gave the e-collar a try on lower middle setting on a mid range collar last week and he's pretty responsive to that in just one session on the larger field. Also trying to fade out the long line to get him to work independently, but it's still helpful for him for guidance with the commands. Much improved and less frustrating than with the prong collar.


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## Gillian Schuler

I've enjoyed reading this thread.

I can relate to some of the things Don says (or what he is thinking) and Jim Nash. Maren gave me an insight, too. In fact most of the posters made me stop and think.

I teach English here in Switzerland and most of the pupils (adults) can relate to what I teach.

Come holiday, however, they have problems. I've told them not to worry about perfection and if they ask for a beer, and get a beer, they've won. They still have problems apart from the voracious ones. They never have problems and I think it is similar in dog training.

I don't use Clicker, I've never read Köhler, apart from what Don has explained but understanding a "method" and putting it into practice are two different things.

The other night at protection training, Buster called me out for dumb. I reacted emotionally and when he obeyed, praised him so. The helper said "heh, don't apologise to him."

I know that the Clicker is neutral but if we can learn to punish and praise our dogs so, would not this be a better method? After all, we're seeking to better ourselves, not just to replace our failings by devices???


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## Guest

Haaving dabbled into a little of everything and methods, I really enjoyed this thread. I do beleive some are passionate on what and how they do things, however if results are there, can't complain. This reminded me of 5-10yrs ago when E-collar talk was the same way....now it's just a another tool in the toolbox. I think as all the readers and posters can honestly say after reading this entire thread, not every method is effective with every dog we train, you have to be well rounded and know when to turn to another tool in that toolbox to get the job accomplished. Knowing when is the hard part for some....too late? Or even too early can go the wrong way...

Very interesting to here all the points of views.....be flexible and open minded...


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## Don Turnipseed

Bob Scott said:


> Don said;
> "Dogs learn best...and fastest....because something is either comfortable and that makes it a good thing and they will readilly repeat it. That is what motivational training is these days....all good."
> 
> You would be amaized at how a highly driven dog will do/learn just about anything for a reward. That reward could be anything from a treat, toy or even a bite.
> I've seen many, many highly driven dogs that learn the way to get the bite is as simple as a glance at the handler. You build from that and in a very short time the dog can be drilling a hole in you with it's eyes in order to get that treat, toy or bite.
> Loss of reward for that highly driven dog can be just as negative as a physical correction.
> Again, I will never say the only way to get compliance is either/or.


I also said that if the results the dog gets from a particular action is not pleasant they will tend not to repeat it. So far I have heard about how much faster motivational training is, than compultion.

We both have a pup that jumps on people, Bob. You use motivation and I will use mild compultion. I can stop my dog from jumping before you can.

Both of these dogs go crazy when there is another dog around while we are walking them on a leash. We both use our own methods. I will stop the behavior befor you can.

Both dogs take a swipe at us....same methods same results. I could name dozens of scenarios that will give the same results.....but I won't because it is unnecessary. 

Motivational trainers seem most reluctant to admit that motivation is not the the cats meow, as a matter of fact, it is close to useless, when it comes to training out unwanted natural behaviors. It is only really useful as a tool when it comes to training new, unatural behavior. Reading posts made by those caught up in the motivational trainong is, to say the least, grossly misleading to the beginners....as well as many that don't consider themselves beginners.

I mentioned I used motivation. Right away, I am told I should learn how to use it ....as in clicker training. People seem to think motivation is clicker or marker training. Marker training is only one type of motivational training. It is not all encompassing. While I do use motivation for some things, I do not use marker training. Dogs are easily motivated by many things. Once they know the drill from motivation, it is reinforced with correction. It takes very little correction, if any, if the dog and the handler are on the same wave length and have a bond. Not exactly whot motvational folks depict.

Just thought I would drop by make a few points clear. :wink:


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## Don Turnipseed

Oh, and so I don't get accused of being as grossly misleading as my counterparts here, I will add that compution and correction also suck for teaching new behaviors. That is why the two have always gone hand in hand.


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## maggie fraser

Don Turnipseed said:


> I will add that compution and correction also suck for teaching new behaviors.


 
I agree with that bit, I think I'm getting confused now, must be all that trotting round the bushes.


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## Gillian Schuler

I have a dog that is aversive to anything on 4-legs. 2-legged from kids to adults he loves.

There is no way in my mind that just motivational methods would have cured him of this. But a quick pop on the lead and then a reward if he looks at me and ignores the dog / deer in the park) cat, etc. is good.

If he sees the "provocation" before I do, then, I have to enforce "force".

I wonder how many handlers have dogs that do not react as the above.

My Dad had Airedale Terriers - what he did with them - sending them out to put out a fire, etc. is questionable but, these are "hard" dogs and not so easy to get them to knuckle under. It's still a pity for me that they do not figure as much in sports as they used to.


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## Don Turnipseed

Gillian Schuler said:


> I have a dog that is aversive to anything on 4-legs. 2-legged from kids to adults he loves.
> 
> There is no way in my mind that just motivational methods would have cured him of this. But a quick pop on the lead and then a reward if he looks at me and ignores the dog / deer in the park) cat, etc. is good.
> 
> If he sees the "provocation" before I do, then, I have to enforce "force".
> 
> I wonder how many handlers have dogs that do not react as the above.
> 
> My Dad had Airedale Terriers - what he did with them - sending them out to put out a fire, etc. is questionable but, these are "hard" dogs and not so easy to get them to knuckle under. It's still a pity for me that they do not figure as much in sports as they used to.


It is a pity for sure Gillian, but, the with advent of purely motivation methods, their were no trainers left that were capable of training them. Since this thread started, there has been comment after comment about how I should learn the method. I have been breeding these dogs for a long time and for that whole period of time I have watched trainers try to train them with motivation. Then one actual veteran Koehler trainer got one for a demo dog. I was immediately more more than impressed by this Koehler method than anything I had seen tried before. Actually, I was totally unaware of what Koehler was. It fascinated me that, unlike all the other methods where the dog is put into position, such a s a heel, and bribed to maintain that position it is not done in Koehler. The dog is started on a 15' longe line and within three days of about 15 minutes a day, the dog is walking in a heel position because that is where "HE" chooses to walk. Why, because that is the most comfortable position. That is just the beginning lessons and it continues fronm there. I was also impressed that there were no sacks of treats or toys involved. I could go on but there is really no point except to say, it works with any dog. Today from what several have mentioned, it is boring. Well. the trainer that trained using this method puts his dog in a down on the sidewalk and goies into the super market and does his shopping. When he comes out the dog has always got an audience of people, many with dogs on leashes, and they can't get that dog out of his down. He even came out once and someone was tring to steal him. LOL Couldn't do it. I don't have to learn motivation because I have watched it for years. This trainer trains dogs of all breeds for a living and it isn't cheap. Said he uses it because he gets paid for results, not for promises. Said that Cowboy, laying in a down, outside of stores all over the area gets him more business that all the talk in the world.


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## Gillian Schuler

On the other hand, I like my dogs, particularly the younger one will not take orders from anyone but us. although he's a social butterfly. He gets nowty with the helper. The Fila Brasileiro was the same, not a social butterfly but happy around people as long as they didn't want to give him a command to do something. The elder GSD is more aloof and doesn't really invite friends.

I have seen in Switzerland that the Airedale Terrier Club is attempting to bring back the Airedale Terrier as it was, a fearless warrior!! But I was shocked years ago when visiting friends that their Airedale bitch hid from us when we entered the house and they were happy when she came to me and sniffed me!

They bred from this dog, I later found out.


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## Jim Nash

Well looks like the fox has jumped off the track again . Since you have returned after stating you were done with this discussion . LOL I love it when people say that . 

Now you've changed it to stopping bad behaviors . 

Here's how Don started this discussion and it had to do with how he trained NEW BEHAVIORS using the Koehler Method .




Don Turnipseed said:


> Well, It has been some time since I worked BlackJack. Got an interesting story though. I had him and the new pup in the valley yesterday to do some shopping and go by the GF's house and blow her rain gutters out since we are getting into winter. The dogs had been in the truck a couple of hours when I got to her house so I slipped Jack's leash on and told her to waolk him while I took care of the gutters. She said Jack was too big and she couldn't control him. I told her he was trained. She took the leash and he fell in on her left side and off she went. I told her to stop and Jack sat when she stopped. It was like his last session was yesterday. With the short time I actually trained him, no one will ever convince me the can get that out of motivational training. Heck, she has never even walked him before and he didn't miss a lick.....and he has never been to her house.



For those that don't know the backstory Don had a thread giving in good detail how he trained 2 of his dogs using the Koehler method and how they learned and progressed . I enjoyed it and it spoke well for a training technique that many wrongfully feel is out of date . He did Koehler proud . 

Like many sequels though Koehler II is a huge disappointment .


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## Jim Nash

Don Turnipseed said:


> It is a pity for sure Gillian, but, the with advent of purely motivation methods, their were no trainers left that were capable of training them. Since this thread started, there has been comment after comment about how I should learn the method. I have been breeding these dogs for a long time and for that whole period of time I have watched trainers try to train them with motivation. Then one actual veteran Koehler trainer got one for a demo dog. I was immediately more more than impressed by this Koehler method than anything I had seen tried before. Actually, I was totally unaware of what Koehler was. It fascinated me that, unlike all the other methods where the dog is put into position, such a s a heel, and bribed to maintain that position it is not done in Koehler. The dog is started on a 15' longe line and within three days of about 15 minutes a day, the dog is walking in a heel position because that is where "HE" chooses to walk. Why, because that is the most comfortable position. That is just the beginning lessons and it continues fronm there. I was also impressed that there were no sacks of treats or toys involved. I could go on but there is really no point except to say, it works with any dog. Today from what several have mentioned, it is boring. Well. the trainer that trained using this method puts his dog in a down on the sidewalk and goies into the super market and does his shopping. When he comes out the dog has always got an audience of people, many with dogs on leashes, and they can't get that dog out of his down. He even came out once and someone was tring to steal him. LOL Couldn't do it. I don't have to learn motivation because I have watched it for years. This trainer trains dogs of all breeds for a living and it isn't cheap. Said he uses it because he gets paid for results, not for promises. Said that Cowboy, laying in a down, outside of stores all over the area gets him more business that all the talk in the world.


Don glad you like Koehler I do too and if that is what works for your dogs more power to you and I wouldn't try to make you change your mind . BUT that wasn't what this discussion was about . You brought motivational training into the discussion . 

Now part of me thinks the statements about sacks full of treats or toys is just you trying to be frisky again but it's a double edged sword because again it shows along with many other things you have said that you know VERY little about motivational training . 

Because of this I have been 1 of those that have recommended you actually learn more about it and for the record using the clicker wasn't what I expected you to use . You're a smart guy I'm sure you can figure out a replacement for it . You've already discussed it in some of your diversionary posts in this discussion . 

And just to keep this in focus I've been sticking with your original post the whole time .



" Originally Posted by Don Turnipseed 
Well, It has been some time since I worked BlackJack. Got an interesting story though. I had him and the new pup in the valley yesterday to do some shopping and go by the GF's house and blow her rain gutters out since we are getting into winter. The dogs had been in the truck a couple of hours when I got to her house so I slipped Jack's leash on and told her to waolk him while I took care of the gutters. She said Jack was too big and she couldn't control him. I told her he was trained. She took the leash and he fell in on her left side and off she went. I told her to stop and Jack sat when she stopped. It was like his last session was yesterday. With the short time I actually trained him, no one will ever convince me the can get that out of motivational training. Heck, she has never even walked him before and he didn't miss a lick.....and he has never been to her house. "

One question though . Airdales are dogs right ?


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## Lynda Myers

Don Turnipseed said:


> the dog is walking in a heel position because that is where "HE" chooses to walk. Why, because that is the most comfortable position.


Yeah if nothing else but to be near his head! At least that's Mr. Kohler said.
That's not heavy compulsion to you? 


Don Turnipseed said:


> it works with any dog.


Really? Your painting with a very broad brush stroke there George. Why do you say this? How can it be any more true out of your mouth then out of mine? I think it impressed you so because the methods (two foot stomp and motivational) you had used prior to were very limited in there application and/or results for whatever reason. Be it a lack of floor for which to intimated the puppy with a stomp or your repeated inability to understand just exactly how the motivational method actually works. Just like the other methods there are various forms of motivational training and from the description in your conversation you aren't even using one of them.#-o
Incidentally just because you may have had a treat in hand while trying to train the dog doesn't make you motivational. Anymore then being in a bite suit makes you a decoy!


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## maggie fraser

Hope you've got a parachute this time Don :razz:


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## Don Turnipseed

maggie fraser said:


> Hope you've got a parachute this time Don :razz:


What for, read Lyndas last post. Using food, praise, toys or any number of things to get a specific behavior is motivational. Just isn't clicker training. It is said because I mention carrying a bag of treats, or toys around that I don't know what motivational is. I know motivation, just don't know much about marker training which simply employs motivational. If my talking about a bag of treats means I don't know anything about it the I guess they don't either because they can't teach motivation their way without a reward. Parachute! LOL


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## Don Turnipseed

Jim. Think about it. I didn't train Jack to walk in a heel. I just walked. Didn't use a treat, or speak to him for the first 6 days. I just put a leash in him and walked. It is magic. He just ended up realizing the best place to walk is next to me. He had 15" feet to run around in and decided that was where he wanted to be. He also learned to pay attention to me and not something else which is one of the stongest things about Koehler....aside from not having to throw hpot dogs at them. Besides, heeling and sitting really shouldn't be mixed up with trick training. Walking, sitting and all the rest of this is natural. They just learn when and where. That is why it is called obedience and not trick training 101. I have taught small pup tricks like smelling something out, crawling across the floor, shaking and numerous other things....with reward. I won't reward for walking and doing eveyday stuff outside of a pat, or if they are out of reach, a verbal atta boy. It is ashame I had to explain what to do if they are out of reach but I have already been called on that.


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## Jim Nash

Don Turnipseed said:


> What for, read Lyndas last post. Using food, praise, toys or any number of things to get a specific behavior is motivational. Just isn't clicker training. It is said because I mention carrying a bag of treats, or toys around that I don't know what motivational is. I know motivation, just don't know much about marker training which simply employs motivational. If my talking about a bag of treats means I don't know anything about it the I guess they don't either because they can't teach motivation their way without a reward. Parachute! LOL


Haha . Now trying to over simplify . 

Once again reading into something only that which you want to see . 

Actually if you read my whole statement it said :

" Now part of me thinks the statements about sacks full of treats or toys is just you trying to be frisky AGAIN but it's a double edged sword because again it shows ALONG WITH MANY OTHER THINGS YOU HAVE SAID that you know VERY little about motivational training . 

Geronimo !!!! LMAO.


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## Jim Nash

Don Turnipseed said:


> Jim. Think about it. I didn't train Jack to walk in a heel. I just walked. Didn't use a treat, or speak to him for the first 6 days. I just put a leash in him and walked. It is magic. He just ended up realizing the best place to walk is next to me. He had 15" feet to run around in and decided that was where he wanted to be. He also learned to pay attention to me and not something else which is one of the stongest things about Koehler....aside from not having to throw hpot dogs at them. Besides, heeling and sitting really shouldn't be mixed up with trick training. Walking, sitting and all the rest of this is natural. They just learn when and where. That is why it is called obedience and not trick training 101. I have taught small pup tricks like smelling something out, crawling across the floor, shaking and numerous other things....with reward. I won't reward for walking and doing eveyday stuff outside of a pat, or if they are out of reach, a verbal atta boy. It is ashame I had to explain what to do if they are out of reach but I have already been called on that.


Keep digging that hole deeper Don . I'm pretty familar with how dogs learn . LOL .


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## Don Turnipseed

Jim Nash said:


> Keep digging that hole deeper Don . I'm pretty familar with how dogs learn . LOL


Maybe... on both counts. LOL. I just can't get back into this banter. Talking about sacks of treats, bribery, trick training. Just terms of endearment guys. Winds y;all up every time.


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## Lynda Myers

Don Turnipseed said:


> What for, read Lyndas last post. Using food, praise, toys or any number of things to get a specific behavior is motivational. Just isn't clicker training. It is said because I mention carrying a bag of treats, or toys around that I don't know what motivational is. I know motivation, just don't know much about marker training which simply employs motivational. If my talking about a bag of treats means I don't know anything about it the I guess they don't either because they can't teach motivation their way without a reward. Parachute! LOL


What? Can you read where does my post say that?


> Really? Your painting with a very broad brush stroke there George. Why do you say this? How can it be any more true out of your mouth then out of mine? I think it impressed you so because the methods (two foot stomp and motivational) you had used prior to were very limited in there application and/or results for whatever reason. Be it a lack of floor for which to intimated the puppy with a stomp or your repeated inability to understand just exactly how the motivational method actually works. Just like the other methods there are various forms of motivational training and from the description in your conversation you aren't even using one of them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Incidentally just because you may have had a treat in hand while trying to train the dog doesn't make you motivational. Anymore then being in a bite suit makes you a decoy!


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## Jim Nash

Don Turnipseed said:


> Maybe... on both counts. LOL. I just can't get back into this banter. Talking about sacks of treats, bribery, trick training. Just terms of endearment guys. Winds y;all up every time.



Oh Don , don't say what you can't live up to now . You know you can't help but get back into this banter you failed once already .

See that's part of the problem that got you here . You overestimated yourself . 

For me this has been one of the funnest discussions I have been in on this board . You have provided me with a lot of laughs and provided a great distraction at the perfect time . 

Seeing you bumble about realizing you are missing something but just can't figure it out . Trying and trying again but coming up short and looking even worse was pricelees . Deep down you knew it too and somewhere inside told you ; " Get out Don , you're in over your head ! " and you listened to it for a second but just couldn't help yourself and jumped back in . 

"A" for effort . "F" for execution . 

But when it's all said and done I still owe you a big Thank You . LMAO .


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## Don Turnipseed

Jim Nash said:


> Oh Don , don't say what you can't live up to now . You know you can't help but get back into this banter you failed once already .
> 
> See that's part of the problem that got you here . You overestimated yourself .
> 
> For me this has been one of the funnest discussions I have been in on this board . You have provided me with a lot of laughs and provided a great distraction at the perfect time .
> 
> Seeing you bumble about realizing you are missing something but just can't figure it out . Trying and trying again but coming up short and looking even worse was pricelees . Deep down you knew it too and somewhere inside told you ; " Get out Don , you're in over your head ! " and you listened to it for a second but just couldn't help yourself and jumped back in .
> 
> "A" for effort . "F" for execution .
> 
> But when it's all said and done I still owe you a big Thank You . LMAO .


This all started because I was bored Jim. Over my heads that depends on what the purpose of the whole exercise is. Purpose, to point out what shortcomings all motivation has. I have done that. Think back, as soon as I said I was out of here, all the motivationalist's copped to having to use compulsion to correct certain behaviors. I was beginning to think it wasn't going to happen, but it did. I have said many times that I don't really post for those that think they know it all, I post so newbies get a clearer picture of both sides rather than exclusively motivation. Motivation has taken over to the point people won't even mention Koehler. I never worried about motivation until I saw how Koehler worked first hand. Think back, How many folks became interested in Koehler, that we know about, in the first thread? Quiote a few. Colin is the only one that expressed and interest in this thread ...but how many that just read it. Both methods have their limits but so many don't know anything about Koehler. Including those that say they used it. I just don't spend as much time telling them it is obvious from what they said they don't have a clue from reading the book. Basic Koehler is not bite training and I explained it briefly several time. Novice teaches the dog to focus on the handler...not the reward. That in itself would be of great benefit to most people here. I will admit a few of the last post after my return were weak, but, I seem to have lost interest....hopefully a few have gained some interest

By the way Lynda, I can say it works with all dogs because Koehler trainers work with all breed. Many have aggression problems, and others cover the rainbow with different problems. Problems they don't get paid for if they can't fix them. Dan has pits, St Bernards, stock dogs to cockers and everything else right now. Yes, it is nopt specialized to a particular breed. Kind of hard to call yourself a real trainer if you you have to select only certain dogs that you can train. You say your dog is trained but can you leave it, unleashed in front of the market and do your shopping and know your dog will be right where you left him when you come out. No, you can't. This is why the method impressed me. Aside from the obedience aspect. He retrieves in the ocean and just a lot of things not connected to obedience. Dog will be 18 mo the 19th of this mo. This is why I know you really don't understand Koehler....even if you think you used it. You did it long enough to find out it is boring for the handler but that doen't take long. I said in the first thread that it abslutely bored me to death in the first weak. 

Lynda asked if I considered it heavy compulsion in the first few days. Not with Jack, he didn't like the first couple of correction and quicky learned to stay withing the lenght of the leash. The pup required more, but, they still wanted to go the next day so I doubt that is was as rough on them as you make it out to be. I suppose you could consider army or marine boot camp heavy complusion if you want to. If we do it to our young men and women....I guess a dog can do it. Boot camp is a lot like Koehler. LOL Gets the job done. Maren she read the book year ago once and judges it like I judge marker training. LOL Upon leavinmg this great debate again. I have watched trainers try to train these dog for 20+ years and was never impressed with any motoivationaor marker training. because it was exceedingly hard to get results. Dan smoked everthing I have seen in those 20+ years. 

Just leaving with a good positive summation there Jim.


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## Jim Nash

Don Turnipseed said:


> This all started because I was bored Jim. Over my heads that depends on what the purpose of the whole exercise is. Purpose, to point out what shortcomings all motivation has. I have done that. Think back, as soon as I said I was out of here, all the motivationalist's copped to having to use compulsion to correct certain behaviors. I was beginning to think it wasn't going to happen, but it did. I have said many times that I don't really post for those that think they know it all, I post so newbies get a clearer picture of both sides rather than exclusively motivation. Motivation has taken over to the point people won't even mention Koehler. I never worried about motivation until I saw how Koehler worked first hand. Think back, How many folks became interested in Koehler, that we know about, in the first thread? Quiote a few. Colin is the only one that expressed and interest in this thread ...but how many that just read it. Both methods have their limits but so many don't know anything about Koehler. Including those that say they used it. I just don't spend as much time telling them it is obvious from what they said they don't have a clue from reading the book. Basic Koehler is not bite training and I explained it briefly several time. Novice teaches the dog to focus on the handler...not the reward. That in itself would be of great benefit to most people here. I will admit a few of the last post after my return were weak, but, I seem to have lost interest....hopefully a few have gained some interest
> 
> By the way Lynda, I can say it works with all dogs because Koehler trainers work with all breed. Many have aggression problems, and others cover the rainbow with different problems. Problems they don't get paid for if they can't fix them. Dan has pits, St Bernards, stock dogs to cockers and everything else right now. Yes, it is nopt specialized to a particular breed. Kind of hard to call yourself a real trainer if you you have to select only certain dogs that you can train. You say your dog is trained but can you leave it, unleashed in front of the market and do your shopping and know your dog will be right where you left him when you come out. No, you can't. This is why the method impressed me. Aside from the obedience aspect. He retrieves in the ocean and just a lot of things not connected to obedience. Dog will be 18 mo the 19th of this mo. This is why I know you really don't understand Koehler....even if you think you used it. You did it long enough to find out it is boring for the handler but that doen't take long. I said in the first thread that it abslutely bored me to death in the first weak.
> 
> Lynda asked if I considered it heavy compulsion in the first few days. Not with Jack, he didn't like the first couple of correction and quicky learned to stay withing the lenght of the leash. The pup required more, but, they still wanted to go the next day so I doubt that is was as rough on them as you make it out to be. I suppose you could consider army or marine boot camp heavy complusion if you want to. If we do it to our young men and women....I guess a dog can do it. Boot camp is a lot like Koehler. LOL Gets the job done. Maren she read the book year ago once and judges it like I judge marker training. LOL Upon leavinmg this great debate again. I have watched trainers try to train these dog for 20+ years and was never impressed with any motoivationaor marker training. because it was exceedingly hard to get results. Dan smoked everthing I have seen in those 20+ years.
> 
> Just leaving with a good positive summation there Jim.


What a suprise Don is back ! LOL .

Oh I see it was all in your plan to say you were done but really wasn't . You are so clever . 

Glad to here about that . I became involved (A) because it was fun messing with you . You brought a knife to a gunfight . and (B) to point out that your opinion is coming from someone who has trained basic OB using Koehler methods but knows very little about motivational training and hasn't even tried to train using the motivational methods he is criticizing . 

To clarify , I was sticking to the original topic too , not all the diversionary stuff you threw in later . If I have to repost your original post to remind you I'll do it . From your reply here it's seems like you're forgetting what you first said again .


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## Jim Nash

Thanks Don for this newest nugget 

" Both methods have their limits but so many don't know anything about Koehler. Including those that say they used it. I just don't spend as much time telling them it is obvious from what they said they don't have a clue from reading the book. "

That's some good stuff right there . Guess what I've been thinking everytime you talk about motivational training ? Oh wait I've told you already . That's where I'm different , sometimes with some people you have to state the obvious and on this subject again you know very little about motivational training but felt it was a good idea to make comparisons to it . 

Thank you Don ! Keep them coming I love this stuff . Priceless .


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## Don Turnipseed

No Jim, my opinions, once again, is from watching people use motivation on "my dogs" for over 20 years. Of course the pat answer here is than none of them did it right. LOL They all did it wrong. The dogs got UD, UDX's, and all the other obedience titles so they didn't do it wrong actually or they wouldn't have gotten it done. The Koehler trainer got the best results by a wide margin.....without all the grief and time the others went through that I have watched....or maybe it is just that my dogs are different and Koehler works best with this type of dog. Maybe not being a trainer has given me a clearer picture merely from obsevation you think? Not being a trainer I have no dog in this fight....maybe considerably more objective maybe??? Of course I have watched multiple motivational trainers struggle and only one Koehler trainer so, maybe I am really jumping to conclusions. LOL


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## Maren Bell Jones

Don Turnipseed said:


> Maybe... on both counts. LOL. I just can't get back into this banter. Talking about sacks of treats, bribery, trick training. Just terms of endearment guys. Winds y;all up every time.


Oh, obvious troll is obvious, as they say. But at least when Jeff is busy trolling, he knows the terminology and uses it in the right context.


----------



## Jim Nash

Don Turnipseed said:


> No Jim, my opinions, once again, is from watching people use motivation on "my dogs" for over 20 years. Of course the pat answer here is than none of them did it right. LOL They all did it wrong. The dogs got UD, UDX's, and all the other obedience titles so they didn't do it wrong actually or they wouldn't have gotten it done. The Koehler trainer got the best results by a wide margin.....without all the grief and time the others went through that I have watched....or maybe it is just that my dogs are different and Koehler works best with this type of dog. Maybe not being a trainer has given me a clearer picture merely from obsevation you think? Not being a trainer I have no dog in this fight....maybe considerably more objective maybe??? Of course I have watched multiple motivational trainers struggle and only one Koehler trainer so, maybe I am really jumping to conclusions. LOL


Oh yes I see it now . You not being a trainer is definately the reason why you know so much about this training stuff and not even doing a lick of training in the method you criticize makes you even more of an expert . How could I have missed that . With that logic we shouldn't listen to you about breeding dogs then because your perception of breeding isn't quite objective and all this time I thought you were a good breeder. I'll start listening to the others then who haven't been there and done that . Classic . I love this stuff Don . Thank You !

I go buy results Don and in the 15+ years I've trained dogs(many of them) I've seen where motivational training can add to a dogs training . I'm still a Koehler fan but I just know having a wider training knowledge adds to how I can train dogs to the best of their and my abilities . I used to say almost the same thing you have here until I actually started trying more and more motivational techniques and it was the results that caused me to change my mind . They are both good and only have there weaknesses when used on the wrong dog or wrong behavior you wish to train . I'll argue just as hard when the radical purely positives start with their anti Koehler , compulsion , correction , etc. BS . Your missing the boat Don and misinformed . 

Come on Don . You admit you were bored , had some pizza and a few nips of the silly sauce and descided to be a bit of a smartass and stir the pot a little . You didn't count on the fact that you picked a subject you only had knowledge of one side of the issue and as things progressed you started to look sillier and sillier and that I too love to play the smartass game . Especially with someone who comes in woefully unprepared on that subject . LOL .........


----------



## Lynda Myers

Don Turnipseed said:


> By the way Lynda, I can say it works with all dogs because Koehler trainers work with all breed.


I have witness Koehler (oldstyle not the updated verision) method shut down weak soft dogs it actually ruin the dog. So no it's not for every dog. 
How does that make my words any less true? Just like you I have also witness people training different breeds, ages, and temperaments successfully with the method I use. 



Don Turnipseed said:


> You say your dog is trained but can you leave it, unleashed in front of the market and do your shopping and know your dog will be right where you left him when you come out. No, you can't.


Hehehehe pray tell when did you witness this? Not only can he do it. But Rook can also give me intense focused heeling with a whip poppin decoy moving around on the field. Can yours do that with a hog or some other prey animal on the field not more then 5-10 feet away from ya. Hell no you don't train for that. Besides by your admission you dogs don't see you as the most important thing in their world and why should they their just hunting dogs after all.



Don Turnipseed said:


> He retrieves in the ocean and just a lot of things not connected to obedience. Dog will be 18 mo the 19th of this mo. This is why I know you really don't understand Koehler....even if you think you used it. You did it long enough to find out it is boring for the handler but that doen't take long. I said in the first thread that it abslutely bored me to death in the first weak.


Mine will retrieve stuff out of the lake don't the ocean the don't have one in the midwest.



Don Turnipseed said:


> . Lynda asked if I considered it heavy compulsion in the first few days.


Did you read all Koehler book? My question was in reference to page 50 of his book..."he'll come with you, if only to be near his head.
" My bad though you probably have the warm and fuzzy updated version of Koehler. The one I have of his was copy written in 1967. 



Don Turnipseed said:


> I suppose you could consider army or marine boot camp heavy complusion if you want to. If we do it to our young men and women....I guess a dog can do it.


What why are we bring the men and women who are putting their lives on the line into a dog training discussion. Don your like a bad hunting dog always jumping off the main track. Of course and they need be prepared for what their up against. The training also will weed out the those persons who do not have the constitute for it. With that said their training doesn't start out deadly. First they are taught how to stay alive and then their training is put to the test.


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## Jim Nash

Don Turnipseed said:


> Well, It has been some time since I worked BlackJack. Got an interesting story though. I had him and the new pup in the valley yesterday to do some shopping and go by the GF's house and blow her rain gutters out since we are getting into winter. The dogs had been in the truck a couple of hours when I got to her house so I slipped Jack's leash on and told her to waolk him while I took care of the gutters. She said Jack was too big and she couldn't control him. I told her he was trained. She took the leash and he fell in on her left side and off she went. I told her to stop and Jack sat when she stopped. It was like his last session was yesterday. With the short time I actually trained him, no one will ever convince me the can get that out of motivational training. Heck, she has never even walked him before and he didn't miss a lick.....and he has never been to her house.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vr1ntmQwMXQ&feature=related

Sums it up nicely don't you think ?


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## Don Turnipseed

> Your missing the boat Don and misinformed .


According to motivational trainers maybe. 



> You didn't count on the fact that you picked a subject you only had knowledge of one side of the issue and as things progressed you started to look sillier and sillier and that I too love to play the smartass game . Especially with someone who comes in woefully unprepared on that subject . LOL .........


According to motivational trainers....what, you three, four. I am crushed. LMAO. You missed that thread on how little most the LE handlers and trainers really knew didn't you. You must assume your not one of those being referred to Jim. I am not so sure.


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## Jim Nash

Don Turnipseed said:


> According to motivational trainers maybe.
> 
> 
> 
> According to motivational trainers....what, you three, four. I am crushed. LMAO. You missed that thread on how little most the LE handlers and trainers really knew didn't you. You must assume your not one of those being referred to Jim. I am not so sure.


Nice try . The wise mountain man breeder has his doubts about my training . LOL . But once again my successes speak for themselves . This is too much fun . Next . LMAO .


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## Don Turnipseed

Jim Nash said:


> Nice try . The wise mountain man breeder has his doubts about my training . LOL . But once again my successes speak for themselves . This is too much fun . Next . LMAO .


So do mine. And mine are shown in all 4 books from 3 countries and multiple types of titles and numerous state certs. Not just talk. Good night Jim.


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## Jim Nash

Don Turnipseed said:


> So do mine. And mine are shown in all 4 books from 3 countries and multiple types of titles and numerous state certs. Not just talk. Good night Jim.


Wow . Got me on that one . Actually I have very similar recognition from across the world . We get emails everyday because of it .The ones I'm most proud of though are just in prison . LOL . Sweat dreams Don .


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## Don Turnipseed

Jim Nash said:


> Wow . Got me on that one . Actually I have very similar recognition from across the world . We get emails everyday because of it .The ones I'm most proud of though are just in prison . LOL . Sweat dreams Don .


Guess Jim is off work today he hasn't posted all day. Probably wishing he could delete this message also but his time elapsed before he remembered half this list is made up of K9 officers reading his BS. LMAO Every PD dept in the country has dogs and his gets emails from around the world because he is so good. LMAO.
None of the three participating in this discussion realize that all trainers used to train using correction and motivation simultaneously. I told him in the course of this discussion when I trained unnatural cued actions I did it using motivation and I re-inforced with correction. All Jim and the other motivationalists could say was I was I didn't know how to use motivation. No, I don't use it as a stand alone method....but I am not using it wrong. That is the way dogs have been trained forever up until the "Pussifcation of America" as I call it. That whole list I gave Maren of all the motivational guru's, and that was the short list, are women except for one. Women considered compulsion cruel, aside from the fact they simply couldn't do it with a big dog. That is when pure motivation picked up steam as a stand alone training method. Jim obviously uses motivation one for some things, compultion for others. Neither is a stand alone method. They work together and any experinced older trainer on this board knows that. Those that are from the Pre-Pussification of America anyway. Since then, men supposed the be in touch with their feminine side and they can't use compulsion either. They are supposed to be used together.


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## Jim Nash

Don Turnipseed said:


> Guess Jim is off work today he hasn't posted all day. Probably wishing he could delete this message also but his time elapsed before he remembered half this list is made up of K9 officers reading his BS. LMAO Every PD dept in the country has dogs and his gets emails from around the world because he is so good. LMAO.
> None of the three participating in this discussion realize that all trainers used to train using correction and motivation simultaneously. I told him in the course of this discussion when I trained unnatural cued actions I did it using motivation and I re-inforced with correction. All Jim and the other motivationalists could say was I was I didn't know how to use motivation. No, I don't use it as a stand alone method....but I am not using it wrong. That is the way dogs have been trained forever up until the "Pussifcation of America" as I call it. That whole list I gave Maren of all the motivational guru's, and that was the short list, are women except for one. Women considered compulsion cruel, aside from the fact they simply couldn't do it with a big dog. That is when pure motivation picked up steam as a stand alone training method. Jim obviously uses motivation one for some things, compultion for others. Neither is a stand alone method. They work together and any experinced older trainer on this board knows that. Those that are from the Pre-Pussification of America anyway. Since then, men supposed the be in touch with their feminine side and they can't use compulsion either. They are supposed to be used together.


Well good morning sunshine ! How do you know so much about Police K9's and my work schedule ? You are truely amazing . First it's training now it's this . Man , you would think after all this time it took you to think of a response that it would be better then this weak attempt at twisting my words . LMAO . 

Seriously , I haven't posted because I said what I had to say yesterday and you hadn't given me more material to mock you with until now . I can see this is getting tougher for you but I see you won't give up . As for my fellow PSD folks here if I said anything out of line believe me they will let me have it . Thanks for your concern though . 

Weak attempt at diversion again Don . Let's see what's it been now , first it was denial of what you actually said , until you realized you couldn't deny it since it was right there in black and white and you couldn't hide from it ,you then went on to changing the topic to what a marker was , then other things like your dog being a mile away while you drink beer , then yesterday just before your bedtime you wanted to play whose is bigger , now it's your knowledge of police work , training and what we get for emails . What's next my spellin ? LOL . 

Let's keep it on topic again and here it is . 


Don stated; 

" Well, It has been some time since I worked BlackJack. Got an interesting story though. I had him and the new pup in the valley yesterday to do some shopping and go by the GF's house and blow her rain gutters out since we are getting into winter. The dogs had been in the truck a couple of hours when I got to her house so I slipped Jack's leash on and told her to waolk him while I took care of the gutters. She said Jack was too big and she couldn't control him. I told her he was trained. She took the leash and he fell in on her left side and off she went. I told her to stop and Jack sat when she stopped. It was like his last session was yesterday. With the short time I actually trained him, no one will ever convince me the can get that out of motivational training. Heck, she has never even walked him before and he didn't miss a lick.....and he has never been to her house. "

That had to do with you training simple OB using the Koehler method and stating making comments about motivational training when you know close to nothing about it . Keep trying to throw this off some more in order to get out of it . Maybe you will eventually find something . But so far you keep proving how you know very little about what you speak of when it comes to training and you are providing me with a very good time . ROTFL .


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## Don Turnipseed

Talk about diversion. Talk away Jim. People that aren't sucked into the all motivation know exactly what I am talking about. 

You are the one that started whose bigger with something like"I can stand on my record." So what is your record that has people from all over the world calling on a daily basis.????

I admitted after I finally read the original post that I was mistaken. Thats old news son. I didn't remember putting that in there. 

Forget all the gibberish that you just posted and tell me what words of yours am I twisting???


----------



## Don Turnipseed

"That had to do with you training simple OB using the Koehler method and stating making comments about motivational training when you know close to nothing about it . Keep trying to throw this off some more in order to get out of it . Maybe you will eventually find something . But so far you keep proving how you know very little about what you speak of when it comes to training and you are providing me with a very good time . ROTFL ."



I bet this is what I am supposed to be twisting. You are mistaking on knowinmg how to use motivation Jim. Correctly used it is used in conjunction with compulsion. One is to teach a task, the other is to reinforce what they have learned. Keep talking. You think you can really convince everyone you know what you are doing. While I don't claim to be a trainer, I been teaching dogs to do wierd things long before you were born Jim. Your not buffalo real trainers. They are probably shaking their heads about now.


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## Jim Nash

Don Turnipseed said:


> Talk about diversion. Talk away Jim. People that aren't sucked into the all motivation know exactly what I am talking about.
> 
> You are the one that started whose bigger with something like"I can stand on my record." So what is your record that has people from all over the world calling on a daily basis.????
> 
> I admitted after I finally read the original post that I was mistaken. Thats old news son. I didn't remember putting that in there.
> 
> Forget all the gibberish that you just posted and tell me what words of yours am I twisting???



My my Donny the wise old mountain man is getting mad and needs even more diversions to hide from what he started . As for how you twisted things I trust others can go back and see how that recent diversionary attempt started . If they care . It was only last night and a few posts ago so others can go back and read it and make up their own mind . 

This isn't about me nice try again though . You are persistant . LOL .

It's about your original post that I have quoted just recently .


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## Jim Nash

Don Turnipseed said:


> "That had to do with you training simple OB using the Koehler method and stating making comments about motivational training when you know close to nothing about it . Keep trying to throw this off some more in order to get out of it . Maybe you will eventually find something . But so far you keep proving how you know very little about what you speak of when it comes to training and you are providing me with a very good time . ROTFL ."
> 
> 
> 
> I bet this is what I am supposed to be twisting. You are mistaking on knowinmg how to use motivation Jim. Correctly used it is used in conjunction with compulsion. One is to teach a task, the other is to reinforce what they have learned. Keep talking. You think you can really convince everyone you know what you are doing. While I don't claim to be a trainer, I been teaching dogs to do wierd things long before you were born Jim. Your not buffalo real trainers. They are probably shaking their heads about now.


Donny is getting mad and relentless too . Hehehe .....

You've done a lot of things before I was born Don .


----------



## Kerry Foose

Nicole Stark said:


> Maybe, but I remember being really surprised when I showed my 3+ year old dog a hand signal I taught her as a puppy to bark loud, she had one for quiet and one for loud. I would guess that the last time I had showed it to her she was just a few months old. Even now when I think about that I find it a little odd. But when I got into DDB one of the first things I was told about them is that they never forget a command. It seems a little far fetched but my own experience suggests there's some merit to it.


It's called an imprint period and yes it will stay with them. They have several periods of cognitive development that will imprint a particular experience, good, bad or otherwise. It is wise to study canine development and its impact before applying any method of training IMHO.
Now, If Don and Jim would put their dik measuring games aside, maybe we could glean some real perspectives asserted in a real way by real dogmen heh? :-\" ...just sayin


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## Mike Scheiber

Kerry Foose said:


> It's called an imprint period and yes it will stay with them. They have several periods of cognitive development that will imprint a particular experience, good, bad or otherwise. It is wise to study canine development and its impact before applying any method of training IMHO.
> Now, If Don and Jim would put their dik measuring games aside, maybe we could glean some real perspectives asserted in a real way by real dogmen heh? :-\" ...just sayin


Just a FYI I think there playing:lol: so what you got dog man


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## Jim Nash

Mike Scheiber said:


> Just a FYI I think there playing:lol: so what you got dog man


I know I'm having alot of fun .


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## Nicole Stark

Kerry Foose said:


> It's called an imprint period and yes it will stay with them. They have several periods of cognitive development that will imprint a particular experience, good, bad or otherwise. It is wise to study canine development and its impact before applying any method of training IMHO.


I'm in agreement. This example was relevant to something Don had posted although I used an early experience as an example. What I probably should have said is that this carries over to other activities learned as an adult. Or rather, this attribute isn't limited to commands/behaviors taught just as puppies.


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## russ roberts

May as well put a fork in it. It was done many posts ago.


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## Gillian Schuler

I don't ever remember having discussions like this at the club from then (1980 to now!!!!)

We had one method "Zuckerbrot und Peitsche" 

How much "Zuckerbrot" and how much "Peitsche" decided the current dog.

Forget Koehler, forget Ivan Balabanov and just apply what you think your dog needs. Just following your own instincts will bring you much further. If you follow the "Gurus" you are just following them and not communicating to your dog what he actually needs.

Use not only your brain but your "feeling" of what your dog needs. This seems to be something that is getting lost.

I have one dog that I don't need to motivate and praise must be subtle otherwise he's jumping over my head. 

The other is oblivious to punishment and praise. 

From this I have to realise that neither Koheler, Balabanov, etc. can help me!!!!!


----------



## Jim Nash

I agree with you Gillian I like to learn new things from as many differing training venues as possible . It gives me more to draw from if I come across a particular dog or training problem . I don't train every dog the same . I do as you describe . But here is the topic of discussion . Don's original post .




Don Turnipseed said:


> Well, It has been some time since I worked BlackJack. Got an interesting story though. I had him and the new pup in the valley yesterday to do some shopping and go by the GF's house and blow her rain gutters out since we are getting into winter. The dogs had been in the truck a couple of hours when I got to her house so I slipped Jack's leash on and told her to waolk him while I took care of the gutters. She said Jack was too big and she couldn't control him. I told her he was trained. She took the leash and he fell in on her left side and off she went. I told her to stop and Jack sat when she stopped. It was like his last session was yesterday. With the short time I actually trained him, no one will ever convince me the can get that out of motivational training. Heck, she has never even walked him before and he didn't miss a lick.....and he has never been to her house.


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Kerry Foose said:


> It's called an imprint period and yes it will stay with them. They have several periods of cognitive development that will imprint a particular experience, good, bad or otherwise. It is wise to study canine development and its impact before applying any method of training IMHO.
> Now, If Don and Jim would put their dik measuring games aside, maybe we could glean some real perspectives asserted in a real way by real dogmen heh? :-\" ...just sayin


Kerry it's kind of difficult to have a decent discussion when y'all just sit back on your thumbs and don't say anything while I carry on and exceedingly boring monologue with someone that is stuck on the copying the original post umteen times and repeating that, "because I don't use motivation the way they do I don't know what it is." What kind of discussion would you expect when all Jim can do is repeat the same thing page after page.

I decided , even for me, that spending some time with my company was far more interesting ....but she is leaving today. I have people driving in to look at getting another dog out of the next litter also but I will be free later if you, or someone, want to add something worthwhile to make this debate interesting.


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## Gillian Schuler

But Jim, I'm not talking about "new things". I'm talking about how a dog can learn. 

Yiou can teach a dog with "yes" and "no". How you bring the "yes" and how you bring the "no" is up to the dog. Whether you click for "yes" and "no" or whether you elevate the "yes" and downtone the "no" with your voice is up to you.

Don said he taught his dog the Koheler method. "How" he taught it must have had a impression on the dog as it carried it out later. 

"Imprinting" is everything we do with a dog, not just a puppy. If "imprinting" is carried out correctly it will work years later.

Or does anybody find it necessary to train their dog to sit and down after they've done it and the dog has repeated the exericse numerous times after another.

What I find is, to my simple, uneducated mind, is that there is far too much "ballast" in dog training. Handlers are overwhelmed with all the motivational bumph, although without motivation, no dog would *want* to do anything. However, there comes a time in life of a dog that it has to realise that it has to obey, whether it wants to or not.

Simply yours,
Gill


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## Jim Nash

Gillian Schuler said:


> But Jim, I'm not talking about "new things". I'm talking about how a dog can learn.
> 
> Yiou can teach a dog with "yes" and "no". How you bring the "yes" and how you bring the "no" is up to the dog. Whether you click for "yes" and "no" or whether you elevate the "yes" and downtone the "no" with your voice is up to you.
> 
> Don said he taught his dog the Koheler method. "How" he taught it must have had a impression on the dog as it carried it out later.
> 
> "Imprinting" is everything we do with a dog, not just a puppy. If "imprinting" is carried out correctly it will work years later.
> 
> Or does anybody find it necessary to train their dog to sit and down after they've done it and the dog has repeated the exericse numerous times after another.
> 
> What I find is, to my simple, uneducated mind, is that there is far too much "ballast" in dog training. Handlers are overwhelmed with all the motivational bumph, although without motivation, no dog would *want* to do anything. However, there comes a time in life of a dog that it has to realise that it has to obey, whether it wants to or not.
> 
> Simply yours,
> Gill


When I stated new I mean new to me and I agree with what you have just posted . If you have ever read any of my other posts in discussions like this you will noticed I've said the same things you just did . 

I train using a wide range of things to get my dogs to where I want to get them and you are right it's all about how a dog learns and I deterimine based on the dog what route I'll take and dtermine as we progress if and when I should take a different route . 

I've also not bashed Don's use of Koehler . If you have read this whole thread you would see I've praised his use of it and even said if that works for you more power to you . My issue is with him comparing what he's done with his 2 dog's using Koehler for teaching very basic Ob and stating that others can't get the same results out of motivational training when I know through experiance that it can . He then goes on to try and validate his beliefs by showing how much he doesn't know about motivational training. Of course it's about imprinting and these 2 types of training(since they are the topic of discussion) do that . 

If I'm able to I will try to give you a balanced view of where I'm coming from I will try to find a discussion and provide a link where I'm disagreeing with someone one the other side of the dog training spectrum . It seems like anytime I advocate the strengthes of one type of training on the internet folks think that's all I do . When in fact I do what I have learned will best get me where I'm going with that particular dog . 

Believe me Gillian when I know I've properly taught something to a dog and it doesn't do it I don't give it a treat or toy in order to make that happen .


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Spot on Gillian.

Another thing, praise seems to take a back seat to treats in many minds. My dogs are lined up at the gate when my door opens and they are not there for treats. They are there to be with me. It is important to them. I sometimes think there is a tendency to make training rocket science therefore the trainer sees himself as a mystical power. Training a dog is not rocket science otherwise, as kids oof 8, 9, 10 years old, we couldn't have all trained our dogs to "sic em" because as I now understand it, it is very hard to get a dog to bite a person. Even kids successfully train dogs for what they want. How do they do it? They just don't make it harder than it really is.....and they never do what experienced adults tell them. They just do it. LOL


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## Jim Nash

Don Turnipseed said:


> Kerry it's kind of difficult to have a decent discussion when y'all just sit back on your thumbs and don't say anything while I carry on and exceedingly boring monologue with someone that is stuck on the copying the original post umteen times and repeating that, "because I don't use motivation the way they do I don't know what it is." What kind of discussion would you expect when all Jim can do is repeat the same thing page after page.
> 
> I decided , even for me, that spending some time with my company was far more interesting ....but she is leaving today. I have people driving in to look at getting another dog out of the next litter also but I will be free later if you, or someone, want to add something worthwhile to make this debate interesting.



I keep repeating it Don because over and over again you keep showning you don't know what you are talking about with the references to having to carrying bags of treats or toys in order to get a dog with motivational training to do something after it has been throughly taught a behavior and I don't except you training a dog tricks using a motivation technique as very impressive or that relevant to this discussion . If it has been properly trained there is no need to have a treat or toy present but you don't get that . 

Don's twittering now with a breakdown of his daily schedule . Never did get that , but since I like playing with Don I'll participate . Got my 3 kids off to school this morning , straightened out a lunch payment issue with the school and saved myself some money . Going to the bank to cash my off duty checks . Got notified at the last minute that the SWAT team wants to do some training with the dog so I'm going to go there for a few hours on my own time , so I had to get someone else to pickup the kids from school . When I get home , feed the kids and bring my son to hockey practice and from time to time come here and play with Don some more .


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## Jim Nash

Don Turnipseed said:


> Kerry it's kind of difficult to have a decent discussion when y'all just sit back on your thumbs and don't say anything while I carry on and exceedingly boring monologue with someone that is stuck on the copying the original post umteen times and repeating that, "because I don't use motivation the way they do I don't know what it is." What kind of discussion would you expect when all Jim can do is repeat the same thing page after page.


Don's begging for help now . LOL . Please someone who actually knows what they are talking about come help him .


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## Joby Becker

I have never trained 100% positive, I highly doubt it would work with my current dog. May have worked fine for many of the dogs I've owned in the past...looking back...

Marker training / positive is great for many things, i really think it is the best for teaching things...but I still believe 100% positive won't work for all things with certain dogs, depends on the dog.

I have come full circle and really do embrace the (positive) motivational approach for most things, but do correct when needed to "proof" things...or deal with the obvious FU from the dog...


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## Gillian Schuler

Don and Jim,

I guess if you went out on to the field together and trained you'd find you have a lot in common with one another, more than you think so. 

Jim, I read the whole post ( I think) and what put me off the most was the motivational handlers who refuse to see the fact that the dog cannot be only motivationally trained. But I've read many of your posts and agreed with them.

At some point 99% of dogs will react differently from how you think they will.

It looks all very nice on paper, competently explained and I admit I enjoyed reading some of the posts. But out on the field, you cannot always apply these sophisticated methods when the dog doesn't behave as he should.

Quick reactions and not previously well thought out methods are required and, if you are only working to one method, how will you react???

One mind of thinking is that "modern motivationalists" do not use compulsion, however weak but those who have an open mind will use compulsion and motivation.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Don Turnipseed said:


> Spot on Gillian.
> 
> Another thing, praise seems to take a back seat to treats in many minds. My dogs are lined up at the gate when my door opens and they are not there for treats. They are there to be with me. It is important to them. I sometimes think there is a tendency to make training rocket science therefore the trainer sees himself as a mystical power. Training a dog is not rocket science otherwise, as kids oof 8, 9, 10 years old, we couldn't have all trained our dogs to "sic em" because as I now understand it, it is very hard to get a dog to bite a person. Even kids successfully train dogs for what they want. How do they do it? They just don't make it harder than it really is.....and they never do what experienced adults tell them. They just do it. LOL


So which sounds more "mystical:"

1) marker training +/- positive punishment using the nearly century old scientific principles of operant conditioning 

or

2) 



> None of my dogs has ever countersurfed or gotten into the garbage.. My dogs load up in the truck when I tell them. I can move the truck a mile and be assured the dogs will find me. I train them that livestock is off limits. They get in their chair when I tell them, they lay down when I tell them. But this is all just basic stuff that comes from living and working with me. I never have need for a dog to heel because they rarely need to be leashed.





> What I do require you can't teach with motivation. Stuff like don't kiil someone elses livestock while I am 1 mile away having a beer. That steak on the counter is off limits even when I am not there. The trash bag is off limits even when I am not there. To me a house dog behave in the house. I am not going to crate my dogs when I leave the house even if I am gone for most the day.





> My dogs are lined up at the gate when my door opens and they are not there for treats. They are there to be with me. It is important to them.


Sounds like mystical guru speak to me... :lol::lol::lol:

Speaking of that last quote, explain to me why praise or "being with you" as a reward is any less a "bribe" than a food or play-oriented reward? This one I gotta hear...especially since if you go by folks like Michael Ellis, the interaction between you and the dog playing tug is the reward, not the object itself.


----------



## Steve Strom

I think the real insight of the thread is being overlooked. Don cleans gutters and has a girlfriend. There's a whole lot more to this guy then runnin around the hills shootin stuff.


----------



## Jim Nash

Gillian Schuler said:


> Don and Jim,
> 
> I guess if you went out on to the field together and trained you'd find you have a lot in common with one another, more than you think so.
> 
> Jim, I read the whole post ( I think) and what put me off the most was the motivational handlers who refuse to see the fact that the dog cannot be only motivationally trained. But I've read many of your posts and agreed with them.
> 
> At some point 99% of dogs will react differently from how you think they will.
> 
> It looks all very nice on paper, competently explained and I admit I enjoyed reading some of the posts. But out on the field, YOU cannot always apply these sophisticated methods when the dog doesn't behave as he should.
> 
> Quick reactions and not previously well thought out methods are required and, if you are only working to one method, how will you react???
> 
> One mind of thinking is that "modern motivationalists" do not use compulsion, however weak but those who have an open mind will use compulsion and motivation.


I hope when you stated "you" that you weren't specifically talking to me . Because I operate with a very simliar mindset as to what you just posted . 

As to how Don and I would relate on the training field I would disagree . From what he's shown me in this discussion and others , that he's too far on one side of this spectrum then I . Which I feel is very limiting as I would with a 100% positive trainer too . Don and the 100% positive types are far too close minded and too far on the extreme edge for me .


----------



## Jim Nash

Steve Strom said:


> I think the real insight of the thread is being overlooked. Don cleans gutters and has a girlfriend. There's a whole lot more to this guy then runnin around the hills shootin stuff.


I didn't over look it as a matter of fact I stated earlier that's the best thing I've gotten from him out of this discussion .


----------



## Don Turnipseed

> Speaking of that last quote, explain to me why praise or "being with you" as a reward is any less a "bribe" than a food or play-oriented reward? This one I gotta hear...especially since if you go by folks like Michael Ellis, the interaction between you and the dog playing tug is the reward, not the object itself.


Obviously those degrees didn't do much good. I have always said I use praise for the reward. I am not carrying tugs, balls or a pocket full of hot dogs around to train a dog. Non of my dogs walk pressed up against my leg staring at my right hand or my pocket either. I have never played tug with a dog in my life and fail to see how it would improve their performance considering what they do. Don't they offer a class in Logic.


----------



## Don Turnipseed

> Quote:
> None of my dogs has ever countersurfed or gotten into the garbage.. My dogs load up in the truck when I tell them. I can move the truck a mile and be assured the dogs will find me. I train them that livestock is off limits. They get in their chair when I tell them, they lay down when I tell them. But this is all just basic stuff that comes from living and working with me. I never have need for a dog to heel because they rarely need to be leashed.
> 
> Quote:
> What I do require you can't teach with motivation. Stuff like don't kiil someone elses livestock while I am 1 mile away having a beer. That steak on the counter is off limits even when I am not there. The trash bag is off limits even when I am not there. To me a house dog behave in the house. I am not going to crate my dogs when I leave the house even if I am gone for most the day.
> 
> Quote:
> My dogs are lined up at the gate when my door opens and they are not there for treats. They are there to be with me. It is important to them.
> 
> Sounds like mystical guru speak to me...


It only sounds mystical to you because you can't do it. Any uneducated houndsman can do it. They have been doing it forever. All of our dogs have to be trustworthy well out of our sight and control. Maybe that is the difference between dogmen and trainers.


----------



## tracey schneider

Sometimes it could simply be the difference between dogs :-|

t


----------



## Jim Nash

Don Turnipseed said:


> It only sounds mystical to you because you can't do it. Any uneducated houndsman can do it. They have been doing it forever. All of our dogs have to be trustworthy well out of our sight and control. Maybe that is the difference between dogmen and trainers.


Running out the door to go TRAIN now . Figured you'd like that Don .  

Just wanted to point out Butch considers himself a Dogman too . LOL .


----------



## Joby Becker

Don...what YOU do with YOUR dogs personally....is not really comparable to almost everything discussed on here...you can see the disconnect I hope...apples and oranges...

you are, I suspect (could be wrong) not really training the dogs to do much, I have to think (and could be wrong) that most of what your dogs do, they mostly do naturally, there is not a high degree of training going on. the training probably comes into play more teaching dogs what NOT to do...which is in my opinion much more easily trained with compulsion.

Again it is apples and oranges..


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Don Turnipseed said:


> Obviously those degrees didn't do much good. I have always said I use praise for the reward. I am not carrying tugs, balls or a pocket full of hot dogs around to train a dog. Non of my dogs walk pressed up against my leg staring at my right hand or my pocket either. I have never played tug with a dog in my life and fail to see how it would improve their performance considering what they do. Don't they offer a class in Logic.


Why, yes, I did take a class in logic in college. Your are king of both straw man arguments and _ad hominem_ fallacies. As usual, you throw in a bunch of distractors (red herring fallacies) and you did not answer the question. 



> ...explain to me why praise or "being with you" as a reward is any less a "bribe" than a food or play-oriented reward?




Note: I put "bribe" in parentheses because I do not personally believe a reward, whether praise, game of tug, food, whatever, to be a bribe


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Joby Becker said:


> Don...what YOU do with YOUR dogs personally....is not really comparable to almost everything discussed on here...you can see the disconnect I hope...apples and oranges...
> 
> you are, I suspect (could be wrong) not really training the dogs to do much, I have to think (and could be wrong) that most of what your dogs do, they mostly do naturally, there is not a high degree of training going on. the training probably comes into play more teaching dogs what NOT to do...which is in my opinion much more easily trained with compulsion.
> 
> Again it is apples and oranges..


That's what I have been saying Joby. And also why I know most here can't do it. It isn't all natural instinct. You have to train the dog to ignore trash game, livestock etc. The dog has to be conditioned to come back to a road to find you. You can liken it to training healing. The dog knows how to walk. It's natural. All you do is get him to walk next to you. Not a big deal.


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Why, yes, I did take a class in logic in college. Your are king of both straw man arguments and _ad hominem_ fallacies. As usual, you throw in a bunch of distractors (red herring fallacies) and you did not answer the question.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Note: I put "bribe" in parentheses because I do not personally believe a reward, whether praise, game of tug, food, whatever, to be a bribe


Logic dictates that if I reward with praise and refer to food as a reward being bribery, the logical assumption would be that yes, praise is bribery also. All rewards are a form of bribery....seems pretty logical. Just didn't figue you needed it spelled out. Seems everything is a strawman argument to you if you don't like the answer. All you got to do is think about it abit and you wouldn't even have to ask.

And you don't consider reward as a bribe? You got a long ways to go then Maren.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Don Turnipseed said:


> Logic dictates that if I reward with praise and refer to food as a reward being bribery, the logical assumption would be that yes, praise is bribery also. All rewards are a form of bribery....seems pretty logical. Just didn't figue you needed it spelled out.


All it points to is your personal preference for not using other rewards. Which is silly in terms of training because if a dog isn't all that motivated by praise for a complicated set of behaviors, but it *is* motivated by food or a ball or a tug, why would you stubbornly not use that? As my first Schutzhund TD/helper said, what *really* motivates a dog is not really up to us. If is motivated by a stuffed pink poodle, by God, use the stuffed pink poodle. If it prefers food to a toy, use the food. If it prefers tugs to food, use the tug. You may not have to use the highest priority item all the time (I'm using lower priority food now with my dog to fine tune his recall to front instead of a higher priority tug right now as it turns out), but knowing what your dog prefers is essential in fine tuning. 



> Seems everything is a strawman argument to you if you don't like the answer. All you got to do is think about it abit and you wouldn't even have to ask.


Do you even know what a straw man argument is? This is a strawman. 



> And Maren is naive enough to actually believe motivational is new and different. God help us. Motivational training has been around forever. Marker training has been around also. That list of names I gave you Maren, most of which you don't even recognize. They are all motivational trainers of sorts with a different gimmick


Uh yeah, pretty sure I never said or thought motivational or marker training is new, yet you present that I think that way. And on your list of names, yes, I do recognize most of them despite your poor spelling. Seen both Ian Dunbar and Karen Pryor at an APDT conference in fact. Isn't Rene Russo an actress though? :lol:



> And you don't consider reward as a bribe? You got a long ways to go then Maren.


No, I don't consider rewards bribery. Like Jim, I am likewise hopefully heading out to go train in a bit, so I am not going to dig up the old thread, but it's like payment. Bribery by definition insinuates something devious, illegal, or underhanded. Being paid an honest wage for an honest day's work is not bribery.


----------



## Joby Becker

Don Turnipseed said:


> That's what I have been saying Joby. And also why I know most here can't do it. It isn't all natural instinct. You have to train the dog to ignore trash game, livestock etc. The dog has to be conditioned to come back to a road to find you. You can liken it to training healing. The dog knows how to walk. It's natural. All you do is get him to walk next to you. Not a big deal.


I agree with what you are saying in regards to what you do with your dogs, that postitive motivation most likely will not work. 


But when talking of training dogs to do tasks, that are NOT natural behaviors for that dog...like training for almost everything else *except* for what you do.. I also agree that positive motivation is the quickest and most reliable way to do it, and have the dog still be happy to do it, with a mix of compulsion to proof the behaviors, with almost all dogs.....

so what is exactly being discussed here anyhow LOL....I am confused


----------



## maggie fraser

Joby Becker said:


> I agree with what you are saying in regards to what you do with your dogs, that postitive motivation most likely will not work.
> 
> 
> But when talking of training dogs to do tasks, that are NOT natural behaviors for that dog...like training for almost everything else *except* for what you do.. I also agree that positive motivation is the quickest and most reliable way to do it, and have the dog still be happy to do it, with a mix of compulsion to proof the behaviors, with almost all dogs.....
> 
> so what is exactly being discussed here anyhow LOL....I am confused


Off topic! Keep to the point.


----------



## Joby Becker

I need a drink...


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Joby Becker said:


> I agree with what you are saying in regards to what you do with your dogs, that postitive motivation most likely will not work.
> 
> 
> But when talking of training dogs to do tasks, that are NOT natural behaviors for that dog...like training for almost everything else *except* for what you do.. I also agree that positive motivation is the quickest and most reliable way to do it, and have the dog still be happy to do it, with a mix of compulsion to proof the behaviors, with almost all dogs.....
> 
> so what is exactly being discussed here anyhow LOL....I am confused


I couldn't have said it better Joby. LOL And I do use food as a reward when I am teaching cued un-natural tasks as a motivator....until they know that task then I reinforce it with compulsion. I have said that several times and I don't know shit. How come you can say it and get a free pass??? LOL Your not the only one that is confused.


----------



## Don Turnipseed

It is going on one o'clock here. I have been outside with the dogs for 4 hours already. :wink: Spent one hour of it with some folks from N. Ca that left a deposit on their second dog. They just lost the first at 14 years.

I tried some new motiovation today. As I fed each their quota of chicken, I taught every one of them to open their mouths. Little tricky at first....but we got her done.


----------



## Joby Becker

Don Turnipseed said:


> It is going on one o'clock here. I have been outside with the dogs for 4 hours already. :wink: Spent one hour of it with some folks from N. Ca that left a deposit on their second dog. They just lost the first at 14 years.
> 
> I tried some new motiovation today. As I fed each their quota of chicken, I taught every one of them to open their mouths. Little tricky at first....but we got her done.


that is neat , I gotta try that one..


----------



## Don Turnipseed

The point being that I misjudged the power of motivation....I now recant my previous position. Can I do that???


----------



## Joby Becker

Don you are a slippery one for sure....was NOT trying to agree with you...but alas I guess I must...


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Let's get down to it. How many use pure motivation because your afraid compulsion would crush your dog. How many, and obviously, there are more than a few, believe that correction for biting you or your kids is going to ruin the dog for bitework.


----------



## Don Turnipseed

OK, I am going to grab a bite and go back out and work with the dogs. Are you impressed? LOL


----------



## Joby Becker

Don Turnipseed said:


> Let's get down to it. How many use pure motivation because your afraid compulsion would crush your dog. How many, and obviously, there are more than a few, believe that correction for biting you or your kids is going to ruin the dog for bitework.


I would say that this is common among common pet owners, not so common among people that do bitework type stuff...

I personally do not know anyone that does bitework that is afraid to correct their dog because it will ruin the dogs for bitework. 

I do know some people that have been bitten by their dogs and are afraid to correct them, because they are now scared of their own dogs, whether they do bitework or not.. 

Maybe if they are small puppies more are apt to not correct...If I choose to not correct a puppy and instead, redirect him, that is not because I am scared to do it, just I chose not to. 

I personally do not know ANYONE that does bitework that does NOT correct their dogs.

Usually people correct too heavily or too often when training, sometimes not heavily enough...in my experience...but I have yet to meet a person that I have seen training for PP, Sport, or PSD, that DOES NOT correct their dog in some fashion. I am sure they are out there, I just have not run across any in about 20 yrs of being around biting dogs....

even most that claim they use no compulsion still use corrections for manners training...as stated on here

also lets not forget, to some dogs a firm NO or a quick YELL is as crushing mentally as a collar correction....


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Don Turnipseed said:


> Let's get down to it. How many use pure motivation because your afraid compulsion would crush your dog. How many, and obviously, there are more than a few, believe that correction for biting you or your kids is going to ruin the dog for bitework.


I know compulsion doesn't crush my dog. He just becomes uncooperative and doesn't learn nearly as well, though he's not handler aggressive. Probably why herding is taking a while, though the e-collar is much better than the prong collar. Accomplished more in 2 sessions with the e-collar than months and months on the prong, probably due to timing. D'oh! I also corrected him for biting me or jumping on me when he was a pup and taught him he could jump straight up in the air instead if he's excited. We didn't start bitework until he was 3 years old, but his bitework is pretty serviceable.  

Turns out we're moving training the dogs til tomorrow. Shucks. Should probably go play with them anyways. It's a nice day out and I'm not in the mood to finish up my resume or study for national boards (a week away, argh!!).


----------



## Harry Keely

We try our damnest not give ant kind of bad vibe or correction to a dog that was raised from a pup to a year old. There pretty much wild free spirits, Only direction they get is bite time, and hunt time other than that there left to be how they want to be. Now once all the work is pretty much imprinted and there pretty well off now thats a new subject and the corrections start.


----------



## Jim Nash

Don Turnipseed said:


> Well, It has been some time since I worked BlackJack. Got an interesting story though. I had him and the new pup in the valley yesterday to do some shopping and go by the GF's house and blow her rain gutters out since we are getting into winter. The dogs had been in the truck a couple of hours when I got to her house so I slipped Jack's leash on and told her to waolk him while I took care of the gutters. She said Jack was too big and she couldn't control him. I told her he was trained. She took the leash and he fell in on her left side and off she went. I told her to stop and Jack sat when she stopped. It was like his last session was yesterday. With the short time I actually trained him, no one will ever convince me the can get that out of motivational training. Heck, she has never even walked him before and he didn't miss a lick.....and he has never been to her house.



You're confused Joby because Don is intentionally trying to confuse the issue . We(at least I have been) talking about training the whole time . Because that was the topic of discussion . Don even calls it that in his opening post . Don tried to turn it into what the dog naturally wants to chose but that's not the case . If it was what the dog naturally wanted to do we wouldn't have to do anything .

In his statement he's talking about how he trained his 2 dogs to do some basic OB . It was a goal that he(Don) , not the dog , chose to train . He chose the Koehler method to do this , a very good method . In it he utilized a 15' lead . He went through a series of exersizes where the dog eventually figures out due to the 15' lead reducing it's options , that the best place to be(say when teaching heeling) is to be buy the handler's side . If it was something the dog naturally wants to do there would be no need for the 15' lead . 

The lead was just another tool , just like food , a tug , voice ,clicker , or anything else used to get the dog to figure out what the human wants it to do . 

How a dog learns has been mentioned along with imprinting . All these methods do that if they didn't the dog simply wouldn't learn . It's how well we imprint the behavior we want and dogs are different and sometimes we need to use different tools and/or combination of tools to best train certain behaviors with certain dogs . It's all about the best way to get the dog to figure out what we want it to do . 

Don strongly advocated Koehler . Which with the success he had with his 2 dogs I can't argue with . Koehler worked well with those 2 dogs . But he then went on to state that ;

" no one will ever convince me the can get that out of motivational training. "

when 

(A) it's obvious he has not trained that way(motivationally) much , he just recently add the thing about never using a tug , with the exception of using some food for training some tricks . 

and 

(B) I've had very different experiance when training the same basic OB using motivational methods with some dogs . 

I along with others disagreed and here we are .

This other crap he's adding , the newest being corrections , is just another attempt to get out of something he doesn't know how to get out of .


----------



## Joby Becker

Jim Nash said:


> You're confused Joby because Don is intentionally trying to confuse the issue . We(at least I have been) talking about training the whole time . Because that was the topic of disussion . Don even calls it that in his opening post . Don tried to turn it into what the dog naturally wants to chose but that's not the case . If it was what the dog naturally wanted to do we wouldn't have to do anything .
> 
> In his statement he's talking about how he trained his 2 dogs to do some basic OB . It was a goal that he(Don) , not the dog , chose to train . He chose the Koehler method to do this , a very good method . In it he utilized a 15' lead . He went through a series of exersizes where the dog eventually figures out due to the 15' lead reducing it's options , that the best place to be(say when teaching heeling) is to be buy the handler's side . If it was something the dog naturally wants to do there would be no need for the 15' lead .
> 
> The lead was just another tool , just like food , a tug , voice ,clicker , or anything else used to get the dog to figure out what the human wants it to do .
> 
> How a dog learns has been mentioned along with imprinting . All these methods do that if they didn't the dog simply wouldn't learn . It's how well we imprint the behavior we want and dogs are different and sometimes we need to use different tools and/or combination of tools to best train certain behaviors with certain dogs . It's all about the best way to get the dog to figure out what we want it to do .
> 
> Don strongly advocated Koehler . Which with the success he had with his 2 dogs I can't argue with . Koehler worked well with those 2 dogs . But he then went on to state that ;
> 
> " no one will ever convince me the can get that out of motivational training. "
> 
> when
> 
> (A) it's obvious he has not trained that way(motivationally) much , he just recently add the thing about never using a tug , with the exception of using some food for training some tricks .
> 
> and
> 
> (B) I've had very different experiance when training the same basic OB using motivational methods with some dogs .
> 
> This other crap he's adding is just an attempt to get out of something he doesn't know how to get out of .


kind of what I thought...long thread....but if I recall... the dog, which has no issues with people, was able to be walked onleash, and it sat when she stopped....months after the "training".

This is far from impressive, I might not disagree with the validity of the monumentous feat, if she did it next to a pen of hogs....

I know many many pet dogs that do much more than this that have not ever been corrected in OB.

I also know several agility dogs that are amazing in my book that have never had a correction...they perform all the tasks, everytime and are happy to do it. 

I know people that do doggie dancing, never a correction for it.

I know a couple of disc dog people that have trained dogs to do elaborate routines, without using corrections.

If that is what this was all about, that is a silly statement. Especially since the Koehler method IS MOTIVATIONAL....


----------



## Jim Nash

Joby Becker said:


> kind of what I thought...long thread....but if I recall... the dog, which has no issues with people, was able to be walked onleash, and it sat when she stopped....months after the "training".
> 
> This is far from impressive, I might not disagree with the validity of the monumentous feat, if she did it next to a pen of hogs....
> 
> I know many many pet dogs that do much more than this that have not ever been corrected in OB.
> 
> I also know several agility dogs that are amazing in my book that have never had a correction...they perform all the tasks, everytime and are happy to do it.
> 
> I know people that do doggie dancing, never a correction for it.
> 
> I know a couple of disc dog people that have trained dogs to do elaborate routines, without using corrections.
> 
> If that is what this was all about, that is a silly statement. Especially since the Koehler method IS MOTIVATIONAL....


Agreed .

Don started this just wanting to take a shot at motivational training . He even states noone could ever convince him that motivational training can get the same results as Koehler . He didn't want a discussion and even stated it later saying something to the effect of he just wanted to let people know how good his dogs have been doing and didn't want to rehash past BS . Which was BS in and of itself , if you compare it to his very first statement . He's hiding behind a mountain of BS to avoid the fact that he has a very limited amount of training experiance to even have made his original statement credible .

It was a statement that he simply wanted others to except . When some didn't except it and he couldn't really substantiate his claims because he doesn't have much knowledge of motivational training all this other stuff came into play . He recently stated he had a point he was trying to make . His first and some earlier statements show that's not the case .


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Funny, every motivationalist out there considers Koehler heavy compulsion. Now it is all motivational. No wonder people are confused.


----------



## Jim Nash

Don Turnipseed said:


> Funny, EVERY motivationalist out there considers Koehler heavy compulsion. Now it is ALL motivational. No wonder people are confused.


I can see how it is for you when you think of things as being an only all or nothing situation .


----------



## Joby Becker

Don.
I have 3 Koehler books, am a big fan of Koehler for the most part...
in every book he dispels the myths about his training and explains in detail how it IS motivational training...

Not sure which ones you have...but if you read them you would know this...

I am glad your dog remembers its training...after only a couple of weeks..I really am..

I assume you are talking about rewards-based positive only when you say motivational, I think this type of training can do great things as well, I am a big fan of it..for teaching behaviors, I myself and every person that I know personally use a combination of both rewards and compulsion, except for one old school guy I know who uses strict compulsion..

His dogs are really flat in the OB, but they do listen very well to him, I cut him some slack because he is an old school DOGMAN, he is old, crippled, and he has tough dogs that can handle his type of training. Still, I personally like to teach his dogs things using rewards based training, just to show him how well it works, against his will LOL. That being said he does very basic stuff. He claims that "motivational" is crap, yet he does not mind when we work his dog in bitework and use "motivational" methods for many things in the training.

That being said I do NOT personally know anyone that ONLY uses rewards-based 100% positive training in PP PSD or biting dog sports, aside from the couple on here...

And like I have said it the past, it obviously can be done, but I do believe it takes a special dog, and a lot of time. I do not think it can be done for every dog...and as others have said there is a lot of dog left untapped if you use only 100% positive..

I think it is way more efficient to use both, and the proofing of behaviors, and extinction of other behaviors are better done with compulsion in my opinion....and that's all I got to say about that...


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Joby Becker said:


> Don.
> I have 3 Koehler books, am a big fan of Koehler for the most part...
> in every book he dispels the myths about his training and explains in detail how it IS motivational training...
> 
> Not sure which ones you have...but if you read them you would know this...
> 
> I am glad your dog remembers its training...after only a couple of weeks..I really am..
> 
> I assume you are talking about rewards-based positive only when you say motivational, I think this type of training can do great things as well, I am a big fan of it..for teaching behaviors, I myself and every person that I know personally use a combination of both rewards and compulsion, except for one old school guy I know who uses strict compulsion..
> 
> His dogs are really flat in the OB, but they do listen very well to him, I cut him some slack because he is an old school DOGMAN, he is old, crippled, and he has tough dogs that can handle his type of training. Still, I personally like to teach his dogs things using rewards based training, just to show him how well it works, against his will LOL. That being said he does very basic stuff. He claims that "motivational" is crap, yet he does not mind when we work his dog in bitework and use "motivational" methods for many things in the training.
> 
> That being said I do NOT personally know anyone that ONLY uses rewards-based 100% positive training in PP PSD or biting dog sports, aside from the couple on here...
> 
> And like I have said it the past, it obviously can be done, but I do believe it takes a special dog, and a lot of time. I do not think it can be done for every dog...and as others have said there is a lot of dog left untapped if you use only 100% positive..
> 
> I think it is way more efficient to use both, and the proofing of behaviors, and extinction of other behaviors are better done with compulsion in my opinion....and that's all I got to say about that...


You never heard me say Koehler was heavy compultion. Jim is getting your head screwed up with his rantings and twisting things aroundd. Motivationalists consider it heavy compultion....or portray it as such anyway. It is actually a balance blend of both styles and the rewards is praise. I do have the books and know what is in them. Think back Joby, I said neither is a stand alone method. They have been using both since the inception of animal training. Jim has been on a rant ever since I suggest he may be one of the trainer/handlers that PD depts have lessened their standards for. If you think I am pulling your leg, read his last post before yours....Hanven't got a clue where he came up with that from anything I have said.


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## Jim Nash

Don Turnipseed said:


> You never heard me say Koehler was heavy compultion. Jim is getting your head screwed up with his rantings and twisting things aroundd. Motivationalists consider it heavy compultion....or portray it as such anyway. It is actually a balance blend of both styles and the rewards is praise. I do have the books and know what is in them. Think back Joby, I said neither is a stand alone method. They have been using both since the inception of animal training. Jim has been on a rant ever since I suggest he may be one of the trainer/handlers that PD depts have lessened their standards for. If you think I am pulling your leg, read his last post before yours....Hanven't got a clue where he came up with that from anything I have said.


LOL. All anyone has to do is go back and read the entire thread from start to finish . You're counting on folks not doing that and jumping in on one of you're diversionay issues in order to confuse things .


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## Mike Scheiber

Don Turnipseed said:


> Let's get down to it. How many use pure motivation because your afraid compulsion would crush your dog. How many, and obviously, there are more than a few, believe that correction for biting you or your kids is going to ruin the dog for bitework.


The large majority of us Schutzhund trainers teach using motivation once learned there will at some point be a time ware good old Shep decides this ain't how I want to do this. Then he has to be shown that he must, if you have a proper personal relationship and good training relationship this shouldnt be any sort of a big deal when it crops up. 
Having a good leadership presence over the dog will keep most if not all the battles away how ever starting with a pup will make things WAY easier


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## Jim Nash

Since this is titled " Koehler II " I found this amuzing . All quotes are by Don . LOL


" Heck Alice, that was a good post. I never read a dog book in my life. I have tried but when I read the absolute bullsh!t that is in them I just put them on the shelf. Are we having fun in that penalty box yet?? "


" I do have the books, I have tried to read them several times with no success. The trainer sent me lesson plans for what I was doing and they reduced the book down to a couple of pages. I am going to try to read the first book as far as what is pertinent and continue Jacks training. I did read the first two chapters. I have 3 books do to no knowing they were all different. I have the novice, open, and tracking. I have never even opened the second 2. I think I did mention Dan was walking me through it in the first Koehler thread. "



" Here is what I worked off of Tracy. This is lesson 3. This is what he gives to his classes. No, I didn't do the required reading at the end of each lesson. LOL I just wanted to test the method some to see how the dogs reacted actually. I don't like training.

Do not worry about the heeling post.


Dan's Elite Dog Training Lesson # 3

Discipline

Sit Stay - Hold left hand in front of dog's nose,give command "stay" and pivot directly in front of and facing the dog, then pivot back into place. Leave on RIGHT foot.

HEELING POST

Use a pole for a heeling post for a dog that heels wide. 

EXERCISE FINISH 

After completing any exercise, take one heeling step forward. Then praise the dog. 
(This is called "exercise finished".) Use the "heel" command and insist on the automatic sit. 

STAND

1, place right hand on the leash close to collar, while reaching over dog under flank area of the dog and raising up into a stand position with left arm. When dog is in the standing position pet on the shoulders. Correct if he moves. No verbal command for two days. 

Days one and two

1,Dogs should be corrected if they don't sit automatically upon a halt. No verbal command!
2,Practice "sit stay" ,stand in front of the dog for "ten seconds, one step and twenty seconds two steps" 
3,Continue heeling and heeling post.
4,Practice "stand", complete stand with "exorcize finish" NEVER let the dog sit from the stand until you complete the finish. 

Days three and four
1,"sit stay" 3 steps 30 seconds 4 steps forty seconds. Loose leash on stay, correct as needed. Remember to circle counter clockwise. 
2, Continue all phases of heeling work.
3,Give dog the stand command. "



" Because I did muddle through a few of the chapters as I said anf his teacher is Tony Anchata, who worked woth Bill Koehler and took over Bill's buisiness after Bill died. Tony lives a few hours from here and if Dan gets out here this year, we will probably go visit him. It is ashamed I don't enjoy training. Met Tom Rose a few years ago and he put one of my dogs through a tracking test. Did good according to him but, not being familiar with that type of tracking I wasn't impressed with what I saw. "



Don not sure what's going on with you lately but you keep forgetting what you right from one post to the next . I was a little concerned at first to be honest then I just started laughing all over again . Classic ! LMAO .


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