# Outlaw PPD/Schutzhund Training



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Had an interesting discussion with a person who had it right, in their mind. Forbid the training of PPDs and Schutzhund dogs because the training makes the dogs mean. Hum....You have to kick and beat these dogs in order to get them to bite and attack people... 

WHAT?! I tried to explain to this person of "vast knowledge" that beating a dog isn't in the program. Furthermore, you are not making the dog mean, you are shaping the genetic make up into a handler's tool for a police or civilian application. You don't tie a Border Collie to the back of a cow an let the cow drag the dog in an attempt to get it to herd. How does making a dog mean make it STABLE in its thinking to do protection work?

I felt like I had just had the dumbest person on the planet conversing with me! Has anyone had this type of conversation and how was it covered? There was an AKC chapter years ago that didn't want to let me test for a CGC because my GS and GSN were both trained in Schutzhund. I explained that the BH was a far better "test" than any CGC. We passed!


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## Chris Wild (Jan 30, 2008)

Oh God.. I've encountered this more times than I can count...... I've had so many people email me about this over the years, and seen it come up so many times on general dog/GSD message boards, that I got tired of retyping the same thing over and over again and finally just wrote an article about it and put it in the articles section of my website. Then I just send the link or copy/paste it. Saves sore fingers from typing and headaches from banging my head on the desk.


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## Terry Fisk (Jul 26, 2007)

Howard Gaines III said:


> There was an AKC chapter years ago that didn't want to let me test for a CGC because my GS and GSN were both trained in Schutzhund. I explained that the BH was a far better "test" than any CGC. We passed!


Our club hosted a CGC test for local schutzhund clubs and anyone else who wanted to enter for the same reason. Many of the AKC clubs are not friendly when they find out the dogs are trained for the sport of schutzhund or other sports that allow "biting". Also, because of the recent dog legislation and media covering dog bites we wanted to demonstrate that our dogs were trained well enough to be model canine citizens in the public eye. It was sad to see that we did not have any interest from other schutzhund clubs. We did have over 20 entries including our club members and others with a 100% pass rate.

I understand the new USA Tuscon club is hosting two upcoming CGC tests and encourage those who participate in our sport to participate. 

Terry Fisk
www.showandsport.com
www.firecreeks.com


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Terry I think that any time we can promote our dogs and our working dog activities, we shut down the anti-working dog folks. I haven't seen many Schutzhund dogs that weren't well mannered. So much is put on them in the testing areas. Regular pet folks and the BSL groups would have a field day if a working dog got out and ate some small kid. The truth is that many dog bites and dog attacks are from owners who are lacking in human obedience or social norms. They have nothing and they care about nothing. Accidents do happen and those folks cannot be viewed as something less if they try and put in place real safeguards.

When clubs or groups like yours open "testing" to the K-9 community, you are saying that what we are doing is very much above board and to come see! We put on a police demo this summer on the Maryland Eastern Shore. What a success it was that day. Young and old alike asked questions and good ones at that. It is postive K-9 ownership and working dog educational activities that will help keep the nea sayers away. 

I am very much against any form of BSL (Breed Specific Legislation) and enjoy showcasing the working dogs which our group trains with on Sundays. While what we do isn't for a Schutzhund program, it is still patterned from that area. Glad to hear you folks got 20 out...20 mouths that can say something positive!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Getting the CGC and the ATTS has become a part of our requirements. 
AKC, wether we like it or not, is recognized in the courts. 
Myself and one other club member are certifyed CGC testers. It's a pretty lame test by real dog standards but still a good thing to have with a bite trained dog.


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## Sharon Novak (Jan 31, 2008)

I asked to pet a nice looking rottie at one of the first ppd trials I watched and the owner said NO he's not friendly. I thought that was so retarded. 
If the dog can't be out and around people, how can it "protect"???

Over a period of 8 years, my husband, our dear friend Kathy O'Brien, myself and sometimes other friends and club members, would do Mondioring dog sport demos at the Historic Nike Missile Site in the Marin Headlands National Park. 

When the site was active, there was a double perimeter fencing which had GSD "guard" dogs that were loose at night. They were trained mostly in defense and were not "friendly" and for sure would "protect" those missiles. During the day, the dogs were kenneled in an adjacent area which also had a fenced exercise yard, which was where we did our demos. We'd talk about how we now start training our dogs in "prey" and how that's less stressful for the dogs.

We sometimes used the audience as part of the demo for distractions, throwing the food for food refusal and even sometimes they help hold/be the obstacle that the dog must jump over in the face attack with obstacle. We handed out mondio info and let the dog's socialize with the audience after they worked. It was great to experience people's amazed reactions when they saw the dogs were friendly just after protection work. I would explain how the protection work for the dogs was like taking a kid who was getting in trouble and bringing them to the boxing club or martial arts dojo.

In 40 give or take demos, with one exception, the public LOVED our show and went away with a positive opinion of dogsports and working dogs. The one exception, was a complaint by park goers at the not far away beach, was not about our work, but about the shooting of the gun. So, we stopped with the gun and when the dogs were biting, I would point my finger in the air and the audience would yell "BANG" 

These experiences led me to believe that we should bring our work into the open as much as possible to show the world that our dogs are indeed "friendly" and "under control" (and not highlight the ones that aren't

jmo

Best wishes,
Sharon


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Sharon I can't speak for everyone here, but some of us are of the position that if the dog NEEDS attention, the OWNER gives it. I do not allow anyone to see my dogs, they are the real deal and would bite you. They are not genetic freeks or social rejects. Our training group also has the same position with many of the dogs that are worked. 

What would you do if your "social" PPD got a "thought" and walked off with the bad guy who just robbed youand left you for dead? "Look, mom is playing nice with some new friend and is on the ground!" It wasn't "retarded" that the person didn't want someone to see their dog, it was great K-9 ownership. Folks will take you to court for dog bites.

I took a great bite today in training from an 8 month old German Shepherd. It bit my right tricep. This was 100% decoy error on my part and I should have known better. If that had been a live street bite and from an adult dog, the bad guy would have been in real trouble. Muscle parts would be hanging and bone exposed! 

As far as I'm concerned, the only "retards" out there are the ones who "assume" that all working dogs are friendly and all NEED attention from someone they don't even know!=;


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## Dan Long (Jan 10, 2008)

Howard it only took you minutes to post about your bite today! 

To stay somewhat on topic, I got a CGC on my dog yesterday, and today, he got to bite Howard! What a great weekend to be a dog!


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## Sharon Novak (Jan 31, 2008)

So, first you complain about the possibility that people want to outlaw shc/pp and then you brag about your faulty decoy work??? 
Read my last sentence again.
As I said before, I agree, SOME dogs are not social and those should not be showcased to the public but if ALL sport/ppd are not social, then indeed sports WILL be outlawed.
Again, if you have say, a repair person come into your house and your dog will not tolerate strangers, so then you have to put the dog away, how can that dog protect you? My dog will bite because I tell her to and it's not personal, just business, even if she just was friendly a few minutes ago. For me, a mute point anyway because I can have as many guns as I want - the dogs are the "early warning signals" 
If your dog can't tolerate petting by a stranger, then it should not have passed the CGC and I would like to know who your evaluator was because they should be de-certified. And, if your dog can not be controlled enough for such a simple thing then you are "waving your gun around without the safety on" which is somewhat irresponsible. A dog that will not tolerate people when the owner tells them to is NOT under control and that expressing that attitude in public could be giving fodder for court when the out of control dog does bite.
Sorry you sound so pissed, but if a dog or a person is not under control around people it IS a social reject.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Sharon Novak said:


> So, first you complain about the possibility that people want to outlaw shc/pp and then you brag about your faulty decoy work???
> Read my last sentence again.
> As I said before, I agree, SOME dogs are not social and those should not be showcased to the public but if ALL sport/ppd are not social, then indeed sports WILL be outlawed.
> Again, if you have say, a repair person come into your house and your dog will not tolerate strangers, so then you have to put the dog away, how can that dog protect you? My dog will bite because I tell her to and it's not personal, just business, even if she just was friendly a few minutes ago. For me, a mute point anyway because I can have as many guns as I want - the dogs are the "early warning signals"
> ...


NEWS FLASH!
Sharon it wasn't MY dog that got the CGC, it was Dan's, the post above and an apology is or should be directed to him and not ME! Sounds to me like out of control or loose behaviors are being shouted here! =; And no I'm not pissed and don't have time to be. The bite was painful and I was VERY lucky, I'm fast but not faster than that dog today. I have owned Schutzhund dogs and all got CGC titles. *Again, the congrats goes to Dan and his dog Gunnar*...well done. Will have it on the website tomorrow. 

Irresponsible??? Humn! Responsible dog owners don't let REAL dogs out to be social butterflies. Police do working K-9 demos, should these dogs be P.R. social symbols? I own a few handguns and I'm a fair shot with all. Should I let them sit out in the open for all to drool over and handle? Maybe bring over the neighbor's kids to check them out. Not! If you don't know your repair people any better than that...:-({|= 

If I have to tell my dog to bite, then it's a dog that isn't worth owning. The evil repairperson comes into your home and punches you in the throat. Can you give your dog the bite command? No. If properly done, you are fighting for your breath. Dogs must also be trained to operate on the physical attack, as mine do and on the verbal command. 

How did you read that my being bit was "bragging" material? Have you ever worked real dogs in bite work before? I'm talking about bite sleeve and bite suit work. I'm talking about catching dogs nonstop for a few hours and then working your dogs in the protection phase. Do you know the type of timing and skill level it takes to be a good working dog decoy? Do you know how to work in and out of drives? Have you ever been a certified decoy in some K-9 sport? Maybe I should stop here as it is going to the point. 

In the number of years that I have been doing this, this has been one of only a few major bites I've taken and from dogs of different skill levels and backgrounds. Sharon, if that is something to brag about, then yep not bad.

:smile: You're new here and I'm not going to play to the "run down post" game, do it someplace else and with someone that feeds off it. If you want to start over/try this again and on a different foot...the doors open.  My point again is that responsible K-9 ownership starts with the FULL knowledge of your PP tool and the safeguards that one most keep in place. Welcome to the WDF!!!!


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Being around strangers doesn't mean a dog has to be touched, does it? It just means the owner needs to be extra vigilant. Such a dog that can't be touched, can still be around people under control...why force them to get touched if they don't like it? I mean, it's wrong if somebody does that to a kid...why should it be any different for a dog?


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## Sharon Novak (Jan 31, 2008)

Lyn,

I'm not saying that your dog should have to be touched if you don't want. It's your dog and you can do with him what you like. I'm saying if you want a CGC then he must "tolerate" petting, brushing, having his feet, teeth ears, mouth or whatever the evaluator wants to be check.

Howard,

Yes, please, let's try again )

If your dogs have a CGC, then at some point someone has touched them have they not? If so, then they are sufficiently "under control" and I applaud and appreciate you for that )

I agree "that responsible K-9 ownership starts with the knowledge of your PP tool and the safeguards that one most keep in place." but, I don't believe that you can have FULL knowledge of anything especially a sentient creature. 

So, we agree OVER 90%. I would hope that be enough to feel that we can stand by each other and watch each other's back when the peta heads try to take away our choice to train?

Yes, I have been a certified sport decoy and have done suit work with dogs that left my arms and legs looking like I had the crap beat out of me, as well as broken skin from under a full training suit. As far as "real" dogs, I'm not sure what you mean, but, perhaps that's another thread :twisted:

Peace,
Sharon


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Sharon all is well here! I understand for a CGC the idea of touching. Mine in the past have had that. Dan's dog is social, got his CGC the other day, and I'm glad for him. Mine on the other hand are not social bugs and are not trained to be and will not get the CGC on them, well at least the male...too tough. Bear is my female Bouvier and she could and in late summer I may look into it. Like Lyn said and I agree, you wouldn't want strangers touching your kids and dogs that are trained to bite in my opinion should view all humans with caution.

Now being bigger than the problem of the past, glad we can come to some understanding together and see 90%. 10% I'll be happy to give up!


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## kim guidry (Jan 11, 2008)

Sharon Novak said:


> I asked to pet a nice looking rottie at one of the first ppd trials I watched and the owner said NO he's not friendly. I thought that was so retarded.
> If the dog can't be out and around people, how can it "protect"???
> 
> 
> ...


 



Sharon, I own a PP GDS. He is comfortable with being in public places and having strangers walk up to him. HOWEVER, just because this is his disposition does not mean that I WANT Tom, Dick or Henrietta to pet him. I have him for my protection. That is his job, and I want him to look at me as the center of his universe. I do and have asked people not to pet him so I do not feel that is a "retarded" thing to say. It always amazes me that people want to "pet the big dog". It is not that he would not except being touched by a stranger, it is because I want to control who shows him affection. This is my situation, I can not speak for everyone. Every ppd has a individual personality. Just because they don't like being petted by strangers DOES NOT MEAN that they are not capable of being public and protecting there owner. If I asked someone to pet there dog and was told not to, well I respect that persons request. It does not matter if it is because the dog might bite me or if they just don't want someone petting the dog. And weather the dog has a CGC certificate or not it is the owners right to decide who is allowed to pet them. And believe me Sharon, we do have control over them.

And there is something else that bothers me...First, I think it is a great idea about educating the public about working/sport dogs. It is great to show that they can bite one minute and be social the next. I do not think it is a great idea to use the audience as helpers. If I don't want a stranger to pet my dog I sure as hell don't want them to "hold" them as I am demonstration what he can do! And there is NO WAY I would let a stranger act as an "obstacle"!!!! My god, that is just asking for trouble and not being responsible. It would just take one bad situation to tear apart everything we are trying to get the public to understand.

As far as the gun noise. Well maybe you need to find another place to train or hold you demos. If a bad guy is coming after me and he fires a gun, I want my dog to know what that sounds like and realize that he still has a job to do. I just don't think a bad guy will run up to me with his finger in the air yelling BANG BANG in real life. To me Sharon, owning and training my ppd is not a game and I don't wanted treated as such by someone yelling BANG BANG.

Look Sharon, I am sorry if you feel that you have had your toes stepped on. There are reasons for everything. And bottom line if you are asked not to pet a dog because they might bite, weather they are telling you the truth or not, you must respect there request.


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## Sharon Novak (Jan 31, 2008)

One more time - I am NOT saying that I have a problem with people wanting their dogs to be not touched. I have NEVER said I don't respect that choice and don't understand how you infer otherwise? ](*,) How can I say it so you understand? 
I am saying that I don't think people should say that their dogs will bite publicly. For example IF I knew someone who had a dog with dog aggression issues and I saw a post by them or heard them talking publicly about it, I would privately suggest that they speak hypothetically if they wanted to ask advice or rant. Otherwise there is a paper trail that someone down the line can use against them for litigation. For example if their dog was off leash and some other dog charged them and got injured, or even killed. Regardless of fault, there is some slimy lawyer who could turn Person X's post stating that the dog had "issues" and turn it into a lawsuit. Injury on people can go further into taking your home, your trainer's home and even the board of the club you train with.
Also, Kim, I NEVER said that I let stranger's handle my dog. If you don't feel comfortable about having an unknown person/s on the field while you are training, but then that likely means you won't be competing on a national or international level. For us, it's no problem. We never had an incident in 8 years. At least I was doing something proactive - what have you done? 
I do have another place to train, but it's in the boonies, where "high" obedience is a recall and not crapping in the house, so sometimes I use boards to get ideas and support, apparently only available here to those who "tow the party line" Thanks for the lack of compassion, understanding and sense of humor. 
I have trouble believing that you are sorry if I feel I have my toes stepped on because if you did, you would not make wrong assumptions nor would you keep insisting that I don't respect people's requests.
By the way, "weather" is rain, snow, sun etc and "there" is a place. 
And dog sport and even Life IS a game - you just posted pics and frivolous comments of yourself so don't be going church lady on me [-X


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Kim you have a PM.


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## Sharon Novak (Jan 31, 2008)

After re-reading my posts and talking with my less reactive husband, I would like to apologize for appearing to be "coming up the leash" in response to what I felt were unfair corrections


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Sharon - I've been a outsider looking in at this little battle. It takes a strong person to publicly apologize. I admire that in a individual.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Thanks Sharon.


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## kim guidry (Jan 11, 2008)

Sharon, it was not my intent to start a pissing contest with you. The one thing that I think I can say about you and I is that we are both passionate about this subject and we can be vocal about it. I would love to look at life as a game, but sometimes life can throw you a curve ball. That ball can nail you in your leg and leave a bruise that just does not heal. There are reasons that I own a pp GSD and yes I have guns also. This is no game to me. This spat is just a drop in the bucket in the big picture, I have big shoulders and can take it. Yes, I did post pictures of myself playing the decoy part and I had a great time. I think at one time or another everyone should put on a suit. It makes you appreciate what the real decoys go threw. Everything is fine on my end Sharon. Thanks for the apology.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Thanks Kim for being a big girl and excepting the apology.

Two big girls at their finest. Thanks Ladies


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

kim guidry said:


> Sharon, it was not my intent to start a pissing contest with you. The one thing that I think I can say about you and I is that we are both passionate about this subject and we can be vocal about it. I would love to look at life as a game, but sometimes life can throw you a curve ball. That ball can nail you in your leg and leave a bruise that just does not heal. There are reasons that I own a pp GSD and yes I have guns also. This is no game to me. This spat is just a drop in the bucket in the big picture, I have big shoulders and can take it. Yes, I did post pictures of myself playing the decoy part and I had a great time. I think at one time or another everyone should put on a suit. It makes you appreciate what the real decoys go threw. Everything is fine on my end Sharon. Thanks for the apology.


How did I know that you were a football player for LSU? "I have big shoulders and can take it." And you pack guns cause that's what a Southern girl can do! 

Jerry are there any nicer in Georgia? Leads PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

Kim, I agree that club or group members should put on the sleeve or bite suit, when they have the health to do it. It allows them the chance to experience what we decoys go through at trials or in weekly training. Some of my students at school can't believe what there crazy shop teacher does on the weekend, dogs that is!!!=; Don't go there.

Sharon and I mended the fence and agree on about 90%. For me life isn't a game and my dogs aren't trained for that game. Schutzhund was started as a breed tool, but it is a sport, a K-9 sport. You would NEVER ask your dog to do a B & H close to the bad guy on the street. We train for 6-8' for the dog's safety. Some of us are also former or current law enforcement folks and have a slight understanding of the bad guy world. I too carry a gun for PP and would use it before using my dog. The dog would be used if the gun failed and my martial arts background didn't do the job. 

10% we don't have...like salt, we don't need it. Feel the love, care about your training, and lets pick on Jerry NEXT! Feel the love...............


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Picking is fine with me. I like it. I will defend honor of others that I know.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

With Kim's pics Jerry, was that the option for sneaking under the fence and not paying at the gate...get eaten or get locked up??? Looks like skool was in for her.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Howard, skool was in all weekend for us all. I learnt that there David Frost is one terrific dude.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Ain't nothin that can't be learnt to a willing mind, unless the mind is going...=P~ 
How did ya'll do? Show me the bite marks! War stories... Foul language...Fowl play...K-9 goosed... I got remarked Sunday in training from a 8 month old German Shepherd. The magic words fell out of my mouth. Right tricep, first good body bite in a forever of catching dogs. I'm fast, the dog was faster, by a second!:lol:


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

Sharon Novak said:


> I asked to pet a nice looking rottie at one of the first ppd trials I watched and the owner said NO he's not friendly. I thought that was so retarded.
> If the dog can't be out and around people, how can it "protect"???
> 
> One of my dogs is anti-social. If you think it's "retarded" not to be able to pet every dog, then maybe you've only owned or been around social dogs.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Well, I understand where Sharon is coming from, even if a more PC verbiage might have been used to get the point across . I also do not think telling someone your PP or PS (Protection Sport) dog is not friendly is a good idea. Instead if I have a dog like that out and about I just borrow a page from the assistance dog people and tell people "he's working right now" 

It only takes a few minutes on Google to find all sorts of interesting posts by people on the web about their dogs. On the off chance your dog ever does have to bite to protect, you don't want those posts showing up in court, where you talk about how your dog isn't social, can't be touched by strangers, is the biggest badass around, whatever. Doesn't take much for a judge or jury to start thinking maybe that bite wasn't really justified, but was just the dog going off half cocked and attacking someone for no reason.

And frankly, it's not good PR for PP dogs as a whole. This whole thread was started because someone thought we train our dogs by beating them, kicking them, etc. IE making them mean. The best way to combat that type of thinking is to take our dogs, at least the social ones, out in public and let people meet/greet. Some dogs can't do this, OK, but the ones that can, should. You want to change public opinion of protection dogs, do a demo, show that dog working, then show it walking off the field and being petted by the audience. A lot of people will leave with a different idea about our dogs. People are usually amazed when they watch the well behaved dog they were just petting go out, kick the crap out of some decoy, then come back and get more petting. 

Sharon may be new to this forum, but she's definitely not new to the dog training world. I can't remember how many years ago I met her, but she's been a decoy for many years, and multiple venues, has actually caught a number of my dogs for me at different times, has competed both nationally and internationally in protection sports, titled in the top levels, and is definitely no newbie.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Kadi interesting points you showcase. I still can't subscribe to the idea of letting my PPD be a social bug. If this idea were correct, why don't law enforcement folks allow their working dogs to be social bugs too. The reasons are simple: liability, injuries, and image...to name three. You wouldn't or shouldn't allow a real defensive dog the chance to be placed in any questionable position. And you don't allow friends to horseplay with you to see if your dog will bite for real. 

I'm not going to say the "he's working now," to me I don't care if they know he's working or "resting." The bottom line is simple, if you want to see a dog, ask. If the owner states that they don't want their dog touched, accept it and move on to a fluffy little thing that LOVES attention. Sharon and I have reached our understanding and that water isn't going to be readdressed. New start.


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## Dan Long (Jan 10, 2008)

Howard a lot of police dogs are social bugs. My friends Mal was on the way to a meet and greet at a school, he got called to a burglary, she bit the suspect, and 5 minutes later had a group of elementary kids hanging all over her. Now, he wouldn't let anyone pet her while she was on patrol duty or something like that, but part of his job is educating, and having a dog that can bite someone and then be pet by kids is great for PR. Nearly all of the K9 cops I know treat their dogs as house dogs when they are off duty, and the dogs interact with their family and friends. I can walk into my friends house after invited with no problem. Pet his dog. Play ball with her. But if I turned on him, she'd be on me in a flash. 

I certainly respect that some people don't want their dogs to be petted, and I understand that not all dogs CAN be petted. Thats the individual owner's choice, but if a dog is so antisocial that he can't be out of it's kennel when people come around, then what good does it's protection skills do you? A dog should be able to remain out of the kennel under control of the owner when people are around. The people don't have to pet the dog, and the dog doesn't even have to acknowledge anyone is there. It shouldn't be so suspicious it wants to bite anything that moves.


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

An anti social dog can be safe around people. My opinion is that a ppd doesn't need to be touched by anybody and needs to be of a certain temperament to actually be a good ppd, a social butterfly doesn't cut it for me in regards to personal protection. This is my view and i'm definitely not trying to change anyones mind on the subject.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

this is an interesting subject to me, b/c my dog, while a bit "protective" of his car, once he's out of it, isn't really a "social butterfly", but he loves kids (and i'm really careful about them just b/c they're kids, therefore unpredictable), but big ppl he tends to be, well, neutral at best.

he's a bit on the sharp side (that's why i monitor kid interactions closely, while he hasn't lived with little kids, i take him to school functions as often as possible). but big ppl, like i said, he views with a friendly/neutral attitude. and that's fine with me--if a carny at the fair asks to pet him, i say "no". the cops around here love him and wish he was working for them. (don't ask what that says for the caliber of K-9's around, ok?)

point is: he's good with ppl in general, kids especially (because i made a point to socialize him to them), but he's not a dog that anyone can/should approach. suits me..


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Al, I like the way you think! For home protection, I don't use the dog only. I own a Glock and have NO trouble keeping it on hand when "folks" are around. I also don't let people in if I don't know them or they're not there on official business. I own two dogs which are trained...one bites and the other bites MUCH faster. And like you Al, I don't plan on having my mind changed or changing others. 

It might have been in Matt's post about the K9 policy and police dogs. Policy-don't horseplay with the K9 handler when they have the dog out...simple the dog goes into protection mode! If I have something going on around the house, mine are put up for safety reasons. In the event I have something going on around the house, like the State Police using the helicopter to look for lawless folks, my dogs are free movers on the farm and a sidearm is on my hip. Not taking the law into my own hands, but protecting my section of the world. Again, the dogs are a *small part of my home protection*. 

Lastly, some folks should not be fooled into thinking that their fluffy show lines animal will be the estate "white knight." I have tested many dogs, mostly GS and found almost 99% to be lacking in the PP mode. Some would be the first to push the owner down while they hit the highway. Some dogs look real good barking on home soil, pull them away and they piss all over the place and hide behind mom and dad. If you have to use the dog for home protection only, you might be doing something wrong.


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## Sharon Novak (Jan 31, 2008)

ok Howard, now we are at 91% since I see you are also a Glock person


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Luv ya Sharon we're closer! See anythng is possible for a willing mind. Have a GREAT weekend.:evil:


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## Lisa Geller (Mar 29, 2007)

HI -- That was such a good post I thought I would repeat it!

lg



Kadi Thingvall 
Senior Member
Green Dog Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 691 

Re: Outlaw PPD/Schutzhund Training 

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Well, I understand where Sharon is coming from, even if a more PC verbiage might have been used to get the point across . I also do not think telling someone your PP or PS (Protection Sport) dog is not friendly is a good idea. Instead if I have a dog like that out and about I just borrow a page from the assistance dog people and tell people "he's working right now" 

It only takes a few minutes on Google to find all sorts of interesting posts by people on the web about their dogs. On the off chance your dog ever does have to bite to protect, you don't want those posts showing up in court, where you talk about how your dog isn't social, can't be touched by strangers, is the biggest badass around, whatever. Doesn't take much for a judge or jury to start thinking maybe that bite wasn't really justified, but was just the dog going off half cocked and attacking someone for no reason.

And frankly, it's not good PR for PP dogs as a whole. This whole thread was started because someone thought we train our dogs by beating them, kicking them, etc. IE making them mean. The best way to combat that type of thinking is to take our dogs, at least the social ones, out in public and let people meet/greet. Some dogs can't do this, OK, but the ones that can, should. You want to change public opinion of protection dogs, do a demo, show that dog working, then show it walking off the field and being petted by the audience. A lot of people will leave with a different idea about our dogs. People are usually amazed when they watch the well behaved dog they were just petting go out, kick the crap out of some decoy, then come back and get more petting. 

Sharon may be new to this forum, but she's definitely not new to the dog training world. I can't remember how many years ago I met her, but she's been a decoy for many years, and multiple venues, has actually caught a number of my dogs for me at different times, has competed both nationally and internationally in protection sports, titled in the top levels, and is definitely no newbie.


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