# Javir vom Talka Marda



## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

As we all know by now, this dog won the 2008 BSP. 

Here is his part "B":
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ox_8HUywJM8

Here is his part "C":
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=cK5o6KaahXU&feature=related

Anyone care to comment?


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Line breeding on T-litter vd bösen Nachbarschaft produces some very strong performers, as in the example of the 1st place and 2nd place winners of the BSP 2008 (EACH of whom also had full littermates that also participated and placed well!)


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Yes, the "T" litter is well known for producing good dogs, but I was wondering what peoples thoughts were on the dogs work, what did you think of his performance?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> Yes, the "T" litter is well known for producing good dogs, but I was wondering what peoples thoughts were on the dogs work, what did you think of his performance?



That dog is having a bouncing good time!


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Personally, I'd rather watch a spirited, correct dog than a perfect but boring dog. I recently watched a protection routine that was high scoring at a regional level and halfway through I wondered if my laundry needed to go into the dryer and whether I brought the trash cans in. I didn't care about my laundry when watching this dog. :lol: 

Many months ago a friend sent me the link to this dog's protection routine at last year's BSP. I was frustrated about my dog's hold and bark, and he sent me this link to show me that it was okay to bounce around like that. Well, I think this is a wonderful dog but I still don't like his hold and bark. Has nothing to do with "right" or "wrong," it's just not what I like to watch. I really liked the rest of it, such a high energy dog with good control. What an accomplishment for the breeder/owner/trainer/handler: 2nd generation bred, HOT, V rated dog.

I was left wondering if the silent guard prior to the reattack was trained or the dog just figured it out through reps. Obviously is necessary when you have such a bouncy h&b.

These are just the opinions of a nobody :lol: 

Laura


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## Sue DiCero (Sep 2, 2006)

Most judges do not like the jumping in the blind - she was lucky this judge did. Most will take off points.


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## Sue DiCero (Sep 2, 2006)

Will re-watch, but bites towards the elbow (avoidence of the stick?), looks like he bumped the sleeve on the hold on the escape bite

With the jumping, barking can not be constant/consistent. which is one thing the dogs are being judged on. And the jumping is a bit scattered. 

A friend who was there (WUSV helper 2x, head judge, WUSV and FCI competitor) said the performance was nice, but thought the scores were a bit high on the 1st 5-10 dogs. He liked this performance, but would have given it a 95-96. He want to see moe intensity in the dog. He does like the dog, but those were his thoughts.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

On the foosing
I'd rather see a happy, borderline control dog then the perfect mechanical performance. JMHO!
I'm not a fan of the nose hair trimmers in the blind. I've got one in my young dog and it's a PIA! His H&B is being taught as a sit and bark because of that.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

The control of the dog in Schutzdienst was perfect and MK got applause for it even in between. I don't know the judge's comments on the B&H but fact is, the points would be up to -2 for molesting and he didn't do this, so no minus points. Is jumping an error??? I would prefer a dog that didn't but can't see how you can knock one that does especially if you take the whole schutzdienst into account.

In the obedience, I would have preferred to have seen more "stable" sits and downs for the positions. Then again, I don't know the judge's comments. Fact is, the dog was under control and very, very spirited. Manuela and Horst Knoche are among the best of the German dog handlers and the mother, Quaste vom Ankenrütt (HK's bitch) is a legend and a very good "Vererberin".

The father **** vom Pegasus owned by Knut Fuchs (who has been described as a hardliner) is similar but doesn't leap quite as much.

Javir is described as having everything: strong nerves, social aggression, extreme willingness to work and according to the owner has become completely controllabe in the meantime - he's 5 years' old. I don't think he could have been too easy to train but that's just my assumption.

It's a pity the judge's comments are seldom publicised - only he can comment on how the dog really is, despite the video.


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## Diane Seaman (Jun 21, 2007)

Here's another video of Javir taken from a different angle. This video does have the judge's comments!

http://www.berensmann.de/news/10-news/78-bundessieger-2008.html

Regards,
Diane Seaman


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Ah! super Diane:grin: 

The jist of what the judge commented:

The leapfrog action at B&H - no comment!!!! On the contrary, energetic containing of helper! A slight correction in "revieren".

The grips were optimal throughout the whole Schutzdienst - the dog was alert, controlled and energetic throughout the whole Schutzdienst. One mention of "should hold the grip more calmly" (but I can't remember which).

What is especially worth mentioning in my mind is that the dog never loses eye contact with the helper, even when the handler appears.


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## Sue DiCero (Sep 2, 2006)

Gillian,

I do like the more energenic guarding, but I like when the dog is barking straight at the helper, not starting on the ground.

But, as I mentioned, , most judges (and we have a dog that does this jumping H&B  ) do not like it and will deduct points, as the guarding bark is not consistent, due to the jumping and the physical contraints.

The bites are full, but towards the elbow. Comments?

Thanks!


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Sue,

The grips are near the elbow but quite honestly, if they are full, I can't comment on this. At this point it would need someone who can say this is a weakness, if at all???

I'm hoping to go to the club tomorrow and am curious to hear what others (international working and temperament judge) and Swiss judge, our president, think.

One of the judges from a neighbouring club will be the judge of the WUSV 2008 - interesting. One of the members of our club is participating "Tom Stutzmann".

Will return.

Ciao
Gill


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Addition: Judge of the Protection - can't comment - he started when I left off!!!


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## Sue DiCero (Sep 2, 2006)

Gillian,

Thanks. The group, in addition to the feedback from Gyapi, that was there are also WUSV competitors, K9 trainers as well, HOT handlers with all their dogs. That is why we look from feedback from them as well as the judging group that we know was there.

Off to work......


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I remember seeing a video of a different dog in 2006 or 2007, (NOT talking about this dogs 2007 BSP) in which a lot of people were critical of the dogs' H&B. I wish I could remember who the dog was or figure out a way to pull up the video. To me, and if I recall correctly, the similarities between the two dogs ended with the fact that both dogs do the jumping up & down thing with the H&B. I thought the other dog was not serious, had a weak, high pitched bark, did not maintain eye contact, plus he was all over the place etc.. I was going to really start to talk BS & bring up the prey vs defense thing, then thought better of it! Instead I will ask if anyone else agrees that while the "jumping" H&B will usually cost points because judges don't like it, if the dog is very intense, and does not molest the helper, and is not out of control, it is equally as correct as the H&B we all prefer to see? If not, why? I'm not trying to argue, rather to better understand what I am looking at.

One other question: Is it possible, if in training, they put too much pressure on the dog trying to correct him into sitting while doing the H&B the dog might get dirty or screw up in other ways? That old thing about better to be happy with a little less than perfect and lose 1 pt than to chase perfection and lose all the points?

As far as his obedience, are there any comments other than Bobs (with whom I agree about the exciting OB!)? I thought the ob was nothing short of spectacular. Sometimes my dog does the jumping in the air thing too when I tell him foose, BUT, he doesn't come down in correct position as this dog does!!!!


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

what a gorgeous dog! and i can even see, as a complete newbie, what a good job he did. but (of course there has to be one or two)--did he seem lame in the rear to anyone else? like the left rear? especially in the protection phase? 

or is it just me? if he was not lame, can someone explain why it looks like that to me? just tryin' to learn here.

i also thought his running the blinds was REALLY nice in that he actually LOOKED at each blind rather than just running past them knowing his quarry was in the last.

i also wish that i knew enough of the fine points of the sport to appreciate the performance more....


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Susan, I can only comment about my young dog. He was all over the place in his H&B. He's not above taking cheap shots at anything that moves. That's why we started training the H&B with a sit for him. 
We use no physical correction for this. On the occasion his ass hit the groud, it was marked and he was rewarded with a bite. It didn't take him long to figure out that's the most rewarding position to get the bite. His barking was also much more random or hectic along with all the bouncing. That settled down by itself along with his S&B. He was also looking to bite anything that moved. Now he's concentrating on the face :-o I mean eye contact! :lol: 
We also start our H&B away from the blind but, with this dog, the blind gave him a barrier/boundry and that additionally helped settle him.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I don't think the team's results were anything to do with luck! The requirements in H&B are long continuous and energetic barking - full points. I think he knocked him the 1 pt for a correction in revier or maybe 1/2 and 1/2 for a slight unrest in one of the grips. A dog with this drive to be in such perfect control rounded up the fantastic picture. 

My preference of a dog that sits in H&B doesn't have anything to do with it, unless the team delivered the same quality for the rest of the Schutzdienst. But maybe then they would have equal points.

As I say, I think this is a very spirited dog that delivered with MK a fantastic OB, Schutzdienst and, tracking performance.

I don't think the dog's lame. The style of heeling is from the training of the dog pushing the muzzle into your hand for food, whilst being held back, thereby putting more force into the hind quarters and forcing the front legs to "hackney". Correct me if I've not described it well enough.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Gillian, I don't see where anyone thought luck had anything to do with it, but I agree with everything else you said! As I asked, if the dog has the correct intensity, etc., what is there to "fix"?

Bob, I understand there are ways to train the dog not to jump, I'm not saying they can't, what I am saying is sometimes it is better to accept something you might not prefer than to try and fix something which can then result in a loss of more points. Even with using purely motivational methods it is still pressure and you can push a dog into a direction that ends up worse than what you started with. 

I see no signs of lameness in this dog what so ever.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Sue DiCero said:


> Most judges do not like the jumping in the blind - she was lucky this judge did. Most will take off points.


Was too lazy to go back and look who said it........though now when I read it again, have you ever seen judges jumping in the blind? :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

I thought the dogs OB was beautiful. Exellent focus and position, the bouncing just made him look enthused (a good thing). I'm not crazy about his flip finish (much too close to her face) nothing I would think to dock points for. I just know my dog hurts me enough, without accidental smacks to my face with that kinda flip so I personally wouldn't train that. Regarding the B&H, again wouldn't want to see points docked for his style as he stayed clean, my dog bounces up also without his rear legs coming off the ground but he is a large enough dog to get in your face regardless. I don't like to see judges docking points for style, let the dog be himself as long as he does the routine clean. My own dog doesn't have a rythmic bark and a B&H isn't needed in my sport so I train for a sit guard, I feel it is better/safer way to keep him clean. I know many peoloe get off on a nice B&H but again, function is all I really care about not the flash.

To me he seemed a little slow in the blinds but I could see he was a very allert dog and took EVERYTHING in. Notice how he looked around checking on everyone durring the in motion excersizes? ( not a needy where is mom glance) Loved how he froze in that forward leaning position and didn't think about twitching until called, nice speed on the way back to mom too. 

Overall I loved this dog and the way he worked. I'd like to think he will pass on biddability to his progeny.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

in the OB he reminded me of a Tennessee Walking Horse--he was "gaiting". i would LOVE to get that drive/control; what a beautiful picture he makes. 

michelle, the "in motion" excercises wowed me too-i thought for a second we was going to break the platz when he was looking around, but what a platz! and the stand--how the heck do you train THAT???!! as you said--not a twitch. 

again-WOW...


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Was too lazy to go back and look who said it........though now when I read it again, have you ever seen judges jumping in the blind? :lol: :lol: :lol:


HAHAHA!!!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

ann freier said:


> but what a platz! and the stand--how the heck do you train THAT???!! as you said--not a twitch.


Oh good. I can admit it, then. I thought the video was paused because it was buffering. :lol:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Susan, yes! I've avoided changing many things in order to let a dog work in a way that is more comfortable/natural to the dog. In this case we felt it could result in injury to the helper. 
I also agree that motivational can cause stress as any teaching/learning can.

With the bouncing during the foosing my older dog often does this because I've allowed him to crowd me to much. He often hops like in the video in order to avoid bumping into my left knee. Just one of those things I've been lax/lazy about working on.  :-D


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Bob: You can train a dog to heel as Javir does and there is no forging involved. Here is some good advise and tips for training a dog to heel similar to what this dog does:
http://www.grammozis.de/

click on "training" (on the left)
then click on "free heeling".

If you do a search on working dog forum. Lisa Maze also provided a link to show how she trains a dog to heel in a similar fashion. I see this more as the dog moving collected. You get this sort of hackney movement when the dog learns to heel with his head up and is in drive, not because of bumping.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

just wanted to add--it's not just me, other ppl have seen evidence of lameness not only in the posted vids but others too, evidently.

it doesn't show in the OB, but does in the protection....

not to demean the dog's performance at ALL. i'm just rather stunned that more ppl didn't notice it.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Can you be more specific, where on the tape? I just watched both protection videos again and still see no limping at all.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

susan--i'll review and try to get the minutes where i saw "gimping" for you. but not til tomorrow!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I didn't review it yet but a dog being driven by the helper often hops along and might appear as favoring a leg. Just a thought!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

The back transport also shows what could be mistaken as a limp in the front. I think it's the dog trying to hold position and anticipating what it knows is comming.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I see what you mean about the back transport and I think you are right, Bob. Also you can see almost the same thing when she is heeling away from helper, to the spot for the courage test. The dog knows what is coming and is trying to "maintain" which makes him move a little hinkey, but not lame. In fact, if you watch his 2007 BSP Part C video, (also on U tube) he did turn and break, but recovered quickly. In fact I was really impressed by his return to heel, especially because he did break sharply and had run a few strides.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Just reviewed it again.
On the courage test she is holding the dog by the collar with one hand and down on the rear with the other. Is that cricket? 
It's almost like she has to remind the dog to stay in sit position. 
We do the courage test as a no hands on thing. I hear some judges want a hand on the dogs collar. ????


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Susan, you beat me to it - Grammozis is a very good site.

Here's one of my favourites but just in German. He shows training and trialling videos and the video quality and work is first class:

http://www.vomhauswittek.de.vu/


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Both IPO and VPG rules allow you to hold the dog by the collar. What you cannot do is stimulate the dog.

Gillian: Thank you for the link to that site. I don't understand German, but the videos are worth a thousand words!


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## Nate Harves (Sep 26, 2008)

I saw the protection phase on this dog at the BSP and it was very nice. This dog showed really nice drive and power throughout the routine while maintaining good control. It was a very nice performance at that level.

Nate
www.sportwaffenk9.com


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Gillian Schuler said:


> In the obedience, I would have preferred to have seen more "stable" sits and downs for the positions. Then again, I don't know the judge's comments. Fact is, the dog was under control and very, very spirited. Manuela and Horst Knoche are among the best of the German dog handlers and the mother, Quaste vom Ankenrütt (HK's bitch) is a legend and a very good "Vererberin".
> 
> The father **** vom Pegasus owned by Knut Fuchs (who has been described as a hardliner) is similar but doesn't leap quite as much.


Gillian: I don't know how, but I missed your comments on the OB! Can you please elaborate on what you mean by more "stable" sits and downs? I did notice the dog took an extra step with one front foot in his stand out of motion, but then froze nicely.

**** is also the father of Dean Calderons competition dog, Verdi v Karthago, also a very powerful, hard dog who is inclined to leap!


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Susan, regarding the OB:

In the sit and the down in motion, he doesn't remain focused on the handler but keeps nodding his head around. I've seen this in a lot of GSDs - doesn't lose you points however. However, seems like I'm nit-picking when he's the best GSD in IPO

When I first started IPO, we were allowed to hold the dog by the collar in the long flight, then they altered it so that you couldn't. Since when has this changed back again? I know WUSV + BSP allow it (SchH)? 

It's not so important, by the time I get there and, as things are going, there'll be a flyball instead of a decoy at the end of the flight8-[


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I'm looking at my rulebook: Guidelines for International Working Dog Trials perpared for FCI Working Dog Committee effective 1/1/03: "dog may be held by it's collar, but it is not permissible to stimulate the dog". 

To tell you the truth, I would not be surprised if these are out-of-date. I would appreciate clarification though!


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Gillian Schuler said:


> It's not so important, by the time I get there and, as things are going, there'll be a flyball instead of a decoy at the end of the flight8-[


Ain't that the sad truth for so many of us! 

for myself, a flyball instead of a decoy might actually serve me well since it would take me so many years to even approach that level I will probably need a walker AND a cane!


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

i first really notice it at 2:35 in the "C" phase. then, if you watch, he seems to be always pushing off his R rear, easing his L rear. again really noticable around 3:38.to me.

and re-watching the video, it seems even more noticeable throughout, but that's probably because i'm looking for it.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I think what you are mistaking for a limp is a dog in drive and trying to keep in check. In your first example, this is transport and in the 2nd the dog was sitting and then got up. I still no evidence of a limp. I'm sorry, I have looked multiple times and do not see it. Maybe someone else can see what Ann is talking about?


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## Sue DiCero (Sep 2, 2006)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sue DiCero 
Most judges do not like the jumping in the blind - she was lucky this judge did. Most will take off points. 

Was too lazy to go back and look who said it........though now when I read it again, have you ever seen judges jumping in the blind? 

Gillian,

That's funny! Long week. Actually, I have seen one judge jump once, not sure why.

Susan,

I will look for the gimping as well, as we felt we saw it here as well and a few others. It also depends how the dog is in the drive; are they fighting the helper and trying to block him (Gus Elfer's dog was a great example of that for the block and drag. Gabor's retired dog Drigon used to do the body hit and block) or going with the helper?


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I looked at SC OG Sursee's website as they have the latest rules on IPO (their president will be judging the protection at WUSV this year) and it seems you're right. If I remember correctly in Mike Scheiber's post "Best of FCI", one of the participants held the dog by it's collar.


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## Nate Harves (Sep 26, 2008)

You may hold the dogs collar, just not stimulate the dog. Unless you're showing in the Sieger Show, they all jack the dog up so he will hopefully take a step forward on the courage test. 

Nate
www.sportwaffenk9.com


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Nate Harves said:


> You may hold the dogs collar, just not stimulate the dog. Unless you're showing in the Sieger Show, they all jack the dog up so he will hopefully take a step forward on the courage test.
> 
> Nate
> www.sportwaffenk9.com


I would laugh except it's so TRUE! Of course, I am only speaking of the dogs I saw on the now infamous UScA San Jose SS videos. Other than that, I have never seen a SS in any country. Of course, I had always heard from many people about the lack of work ethic, but I thought maybe it was an exaggeration - until I saw the tapes.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> I think what you are mistaking for a limp is a dog in drive and trying to keep in check. In your first example, this is transport and in the 2nd the dog was sitting and then got up. I still no evidence of a limp. I'm sorry, I have looked multiple times and do not see it. Maybe someone else can see what Ann is talking about?


well it's certainly possible that i'm mistaking a limp for a dog in drive. no doubt!! it just caught my eye, and seems to be evident to me throughout the routine. and once i noticed it, it just kept becoming more evident that he was favoring his leg. 

but i tend to overthink stuff also, and i'm new to the sport. i've just never seen anything quite like it previously. and to me it looks like he's lame at least to some degree. :-k

no biggie either


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## Ian Forbes (Oct 13, 2006)

My experience of dogs is that they rarely show evidence of lameness when in drive (unless there is something pretty severe). In this case, I just see a dog that is high in drive, skipping, jumping and crabbing - no sign of injury to me.

If this dog was lame he would be far more likely to exhibit it going to and from the trial field IMO.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

ann freier said:


> well it's certainly possible that i'm mistaking a limp for a dog in drive. no doubt!! it just caught my eye, and seems to be evident to me throughout the routine. and once i noticed it, it just kept becoming more evident that he was favoring his leg.
> 
> but i tend to overthink stuff also, and i'm new to the sport. i've just never seen anything quite like it previously. and to me it looks like he's lame at least to some degree. :-k
> 
> no biggie either


The reason I wanted to follow up on this is because I know beyond a shadow of a doubt you had no intention of starting a malicious rumor, but unfortunately out in cyber space there are some real nasty assholes with their own bizarre agendas who love nothing more than to read this kind of thing and run with it just for "fun". I know for a fact internet rumors have chased more than one good dog and sullied reputations unfairly. Every time the subject of breeding a particular dog I know of comes up, people come out of the wood works to say "oh but what about....... there must be something really wrong with that dog & the owners are hiding it" The fact that it's unproven rumor never seems to matter.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

i appreciate that susan. but just so you know,if i wanted to start a "malicious rumor" i wouldn't start it here--it'd be on another board that posts pedigrees. haha

it just was making me crazy (OMG--am i OC?????). but now i can rest easy knowing it's my perception at fault. stlil wish someday to train a dog to show that much drive+control in OB......


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

ann freier said:


> i appreciate that susan. but just so you know,if i wanted to start a "malicious rumor" i wouldn't start it here--it'd be on another board that posts pedigrees. haha
> 
> it just was making me crazy (OMG--am i OC?????). but now i can rest easy knowing it's my perception at fault. stlil wish someday to train a dog to show that much drive+control in OB......


 
I hope you know I never thought you wanted to start a rumor - vicious or otherwise! It might not be your perception, you could be right, I don't know the dog, I just didn't see it.


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## Sue DiCero (Sep 2, 2006)

No where did I see anything that could construed as malicious. If the dog was possibly hurt and it was slightly noticable, what is the issue?

Gabor's dog Enzo was moving a bit funny in the protection work in last year's Nationals when he ran to the 1st blind and on the long bite. Multiple people said something to us about it and Enzo appeared to be more in fight drive than normal  and was pushing the front half helper hard. We did not take offense to anyone stating that something looked funny in his movement - his hair had also been up when he was taken out of the crate to go onto the field.

After the Nationals, we took him to the chiropractor. His back was tweaked pretty badly. At the WUSV, the back half helper had jammed him (watched the tape) and he was still hurting a few weeks later. Did an adjustment and no issue - did VERY well in the spring (won the SE Regionals and the HU WUSV qualifiers). And at the HU qualifiers - same helpers form the WUSV, same jam, not as bad, but he did not re-grip


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

ann freier it'd be on another board that posts pedigrees[/quote said:


> We think alike - that's exactly what I was thinking too!!!


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