# Malinois - Can't digest Fats??



## Tamara Champagne (Jan 20, 2009)

I have an 11 month old Mal who seems to have had some pretty major dietary issues since I got him 6 months ago.

He was on two high end grain-free kibbles and also some "lesser-quality" kibbles - I was playing around with grain vs grain-free as well as the fat content in the kibbles. Seemed the lower fat content wether grain or grain-free was a better food for him, but he never had any consistent poops...always pretty soft. My other dogs did pretty well on any food that I was feeding them.

I finally made the switch over to RAW 2 months ago and the switch pretty much straightened things out for the Mal puppy...EXCEPT for the fact that any time he gets a chicken back, or carcass, he gets loose stool. Ok, more than loose...try major blow out disaster!!

Anyways, over the last two months I have screwed around with the proteins, veggie, bones etc and it appears ANY addition of fat, or anything rich creates a HUGE problem that takes me a week of bland diet to clear up. 

I have it pretty much narrowed down to chicken backs or necks being the biggest culprit, even though he can eat the ground chcicken meat with no problem.

I have an app on Friday for some blood work....I have a suspicion that he could be dealing with a bit of a problem digesting fats....

Anyone have any experience with this type of issue? Could this be an underlying Pancreas issue??

Thanks, any input is appreciated!


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## Eric Shearer (Oct 30, 2008)

Have you tried using probiotics and digestive enzymes?


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

I am only familiar with SIBO, which is semi common in GSDs. Small Intestinal Bacterial Overgrowth. There is an issue with fat digestion with this condition. It is diagnosed with a fasting blood test, they often test for EPI at the same time. They are testing for folate and cobalamin levels. I am not familiar with EPI, but I believe it is a fat digestion issue as well.

Blood tests will rule in or out either.

Good luck!


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Tamara - I hope you figure out the cause of the problem. Just a tip on something that works for me - green tripe. Any time I have a dog with a loose stool issue (or when I'm switching a dog to raw), I'll skip a meal and then feed them green tripe. Usually I see drastic improvement within a couple of meals (and if not, I'll take them to the vet). It is loaded with good intestinal bacteria. Fat content is usually 11-12%.

Years ago I had a GSD with EPI. Her symptoms were weight loss and large, stinky, loose stools. Here's a website with more info (and pics of poop!) on EPI:
http://www.epi4dogs.com/


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## Shane Woodlief (Sep 9, 2009)

have you tried mixing in and feeding a little yogurt (pro biotic stuff). This will help with some of the stomach issues.


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## Tamara Champagne (Jan 20, 2009)

Jennifer Michelson said:


> I am only familiar with SIBO, which is semi common in GSDs. Small Intestinal Bacterial Overgrowth. There is an issue with fat digestion with this condition. It is diagnosed with a fasting blood test, they often test for EPI at the same time. They are testing for folate and cobalamin levels. I am not familiar with EPI, but I believe it is a fat digestion issue as well.
> 
> Blood tests will rule in or out either.
> 
> Good luck!


Both of these are suspects for me...I am taking him in Friday and DEMANDING the tests for these two things only, then will go from there. From what I understand, the SIBO and EPI are not diagnosed using a reg CBC blood panel, and that the EPI test needs to be sent off somewher else. Anyways, dog will be fasted and ready for give blood


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## Tamara Champagne (Jan 20, 2009)

Konnie Hein said:


> Tamara - I hope you figure out the cause of the problem. Just a tip on something that works for me - green tripe. Any time I have a dog with a loose stool issue (or when I'm switching a dog to raw), I'll skip a meal and then feed them green tripe. Usually I see drastic improvement within a couple of meals (and if not, I'll take them to the vet). It is loaded with good intestinal bacteria. Fat content is usually 11-12%.
> 
> Years ago I had a GSD with EPI. Her symptoms were weight loss and large, stinky, loose stools. Here's a website with more info (and pics of poop!) on EPI:
> http://www.epi4dogs.com/


Thanks Konnie! I checked that website out, which has only heightened my concern :-( It all sounds about the same as my pup...but you are right about the tripe. I feed him a beef/tripe mix and he does GREAT on that. 

My concern is, whatever this turns out to be; If he can't tolerate the bones for whatever reason, how do I get enough calcium in to him being on a RAW diet? The ground meat I buy does have ground bones in a little bit, but is that enough?

And to answer the reply about pro-biotics....yup :smile: He is on a good quality pro-biotic supplement that I ended up buying for him. It doesn't seem to help a whole bunch, but I figure it probably isn't hurting anything either at this point.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

How is his weight maintenance?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Tamara Champagne said:


> ... My concern is, whatever this turns out to be; If he can't tolerate the bones for whatever reason, how do I get enough calcium in to him being on a RAW diet?


This is so unlikely that I wouldn't worry much about dealing with it. However, I can tell you that if a dog really could not tolerate bone for whatever reason, he could still be on a raw diet with careful supplementing of calcium, which I can guide you through.

Again, this is so-oooo not the likely problem, IMHO .....


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Tamara Champagne said:


> .... any time he gets a chicken back, or carcass, he gets loose stool. Ok, more than loose...try major blow out disaster!! ....
> I have it pretty much narrowed down to chicken backs or necks being the biggest culprit, even though he can eat the ground chcicken meat with no problem. ....


What happens if you remove the skin and visible blobs of fat from a chicken back?


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## Tamara Champagne (Jan 20, 2009)

Connie Sutherland said:


> How is his weight maintenance?


 
"Not bad" He is always on the thin side for sure, but when he has an episode, than his weight can drop pretty fast. Since I switched him to RAW I have noticed that he has put on some weight, but after this last weekend of him being sick, he's down in weight again. 

Thanks for the offer to help, Connie! I really appreciate it. I'm no RAW gu-ru. I have fed normal, healthy dogs with no problems, but learning to supplement a dog with special needs could be a challenge!


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## Tamara Champagne (Jan 20, 2009)

Connie Sutherland said:


> What happens if you remove the skin and visible blobs of fat from a chicken back?


Still the same thing. I have removed as much as I can, and also tried feeding him half of what I would normnally feed for bones, but the same things happens. (Not as bad, for as long if I reduce the amount fed)

I am starting to be scared to experiment with him!!! If it doesn't agree with him, I need a week to get his gut stabalized again...not to mention how he must feel when he is sick! I feel bad for "trying" things out on him now as mostly it ends poorly for him.

For right now, until we can run some tests, I think I'm gonna stick with what I know. He does well on tripe, lean beef and ground chicken with bone in...both the beef and chicken have some veggie in it, and other than his pro-biotic, that's all he's getting.

My vets are really supportive of a RAW diet, so hopefully between their advice and yours, I can get him healthy. This has been a chronic problem since I got him, so it will be nice to have a definitive diagnosis so I can go forward with it.


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## Debbie High (Jul 2, 2006)

I have one dog that cannot tolerate as much probiotic/yogurt/kefir as the other three. Too much causes gas and loose stools. Maybe feed tripe several times a week and no probiotic for a week or so. Just my .02 cents based on my experience. 


Regards,
Debbie


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## Charlotte Hince (Oct 7, 2010)

Odd question but is there a lot of bile in the "explosion" of sorts. e.g. Is it really green?


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## Maureen A Osborn (Feb 12, 2010)

Pancreatitis also rings a bell in my head. You might want to try this enzyme below....

http://www.gnc.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2960282

Here are some links on diets for pancreatitis also....

http://www.greyhoundgang.org/medical-pancreatitus.php


maybe just deficient an enzyme....try the stuff above and see how it works....
http://www.ehow.com/way_5418435_feed-dogs-exocrine-pancreatic-insufficiency.html


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## Tamara Champagne (Jan 20, 2009)

Charlotte Hince said:


> Odd question but is there a lot of bile in the "explosion" of sorts. e.g. Is it really green?


It has been at times, but most often it's a greasy, VERY smelly washed out grey/yellow color. :-&


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## Tamara Champagne (Jan 20, 2009)

Maureen A Osborn said:


> Pancreatitis also rings a bell in my head. You might want to try this enzyme below....
> 
> http://www.gnc.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2960282
> 
> ...


Thanks, that second link is especially helpful...and good to know that I am currently feeding close to what Billinghurst suggests, less the bones at this time. 

I am thinking I still want to get this blood work done before trying any supplements...it would be nice to know for the future if he has a dud pancreas....but I think my next step after the blood work is to find a suitable enzyme supplement.

My vet has a holistic practice and often prescribes herbs which in the past for many other issues have been VERY beneficial to my dogs. We will see what they have to say about this!!

Thanks again everyone for the info, I truly appreciate it. Having a sick puppy SUCKS 

I'll let you know what the vet says!


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

Some dogs just don't do well with chicken. One of my dogs is like this also. He is mostly fed turkey necks and duck frames now


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

"I am currently feeding close to what Billinghurst suggests, less the bones at this time".


Why less the bones? That's a very important (necessary) part of feeding raw.


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## Tamara Champagne (Jan 20, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> "I am currently feeding close to what Billinghurst suggests, less the bones at this time".
> 
> 
> Why less the bones? That's a very important (necessary) part of feeding raw.


Cause...he gets the explosive S*@!$ from chicken BONES and marrow BONES. Not really sure what the issue is!!! I realize that the whole diet is based on the bones, which has never in all the years I've fed RAW been an issue. ](*,)

He does get ground bone in his meat patties now, so it's not void of bone, but any more bone than that and LOOK OUT!!!! 

So, hoping it's NOT some sort of a pancreas problem that is contributing to this...but from the research I've done on EPI and Pancreas problems, once the dogs are stable and the proper enzymes are being fed, you can slowly add the bones back in and the dogs are much better with it.


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

mine had the same issue when he was young, around a year old?, and I even made some posts about it


I did raw chicken drumsticks and he would be fine, tried some beef soup bones and explosive craps, like turning on the hose and holding the hand sprayer if you were washing your car, then chicken was doing it for a while, then chicken was fine, then fed him a batch of chicken necks, and more explosive craps

I concluded that I couldnt feed raw with him, went back to kibble for a month or so, then tried a drumstick and had no issue, did it a few more times, no issues, and has been fine and eats raw (chicken quarters and beef soup bones) half the time now

no idea why it suddenly was ok, but it looked similar and I believe it had something to do with the fat on the chicken and marrow in the bones


maybe go back to kibble then try a drumstick with the fat removed (breakfast) then kibble for dinner, if nor problem leave some fat on next time, then all of it....?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Tamara Champagne said:


> Cause...he gets the explosive S*@!$ from chicken BONES and marrow BONES. Not really sure what the issue is!!! I realize that the whole diet is based on the bones, which has never in all the years I've fed RAW been an issue. ](*,)
> 
> He does get ground bone in his meat patties now, so it's not void of bone, but any more bone than that and LOOK OUT!!!!



Many dogs (puppies and adults) do indeed react with diarrhea to bone marrow.

I thought you were specifically talking about chicken backs/necks being a culprit _("I have it pretty much narrowed down to chicken backs or necks being the biggest culprit")_ ... very different from marrow bones.

Marrow bones, of course, are easily omitted with no dire consequences at all for the puppy. 

Not true of the digestible bones in a raw diet. When you say "meat patties," you mean a commercial prepared raw food?

I ask this because of how important the calcium-phosphorus ratio is to a growing puppy; he should not continue for any significant length of time on a diet that's providing less than the critical calcium amount that "comes in" RMBs or a balanced commercial diet.


But he has a vet appointment for Friday, I think you said? That's good.


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## Maureen A Osborn (Feb 12, 2010)

my dogs had mega explosive diarrhea from raw soup bones with the marrow....even pork bones...so I give them the chicken bones(use a meat grinder and grind up the leg quarters whole) and they have no problems....you also can give them calcium that is in egg shells


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

^ you cant do just raw leg quarters? thats what I do


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## Maureen A Osborn (Feb 12, 2010)

they get beef,organ meat, both chicken and beef, sardines,eggs,yogurt, cheese, and Honest Kitchen thrown in


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

I meant you cant give them to the dog whole vs grinding them up?


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## Maureen A Osborn (Feb 12, 2010)

oh, LOL,sorry Matt... it makes me feel better, my friend was feeding raw and her Rottie sh* t out a shard of a chicken bone that was sharp enough to cut your finger...scared the hell outta her...so my dogs are still getting the nutritional benefit, and I just give the bully sticks for them to chew on for their teeth and gums....plus, mymale was a little picky on the whole raw leg quarter...wasnt too thrilled with it(maybe too slimy, hell, I hate touching raw chicken myself, LOL) so now they both scarf it down ground up


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

That's funny Maureen, my male GSD won't eat ground meat at all. I don't know what it is about it, but like hamburger he won't touch unless it's cooked already, like when I make tacos.But they'll both scarf down raw chicken parts.


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## Maureen A Osborn (Feb 12, 2010)

I say it's that Y chromosome thing


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Oh right, I forgot the "braindead" gene runs on the Y chromosome. D'oh!


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## Tamara Champagne (Jan 20, 2009)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Many dogs (puppies and adults) do indeed react with diarrhea to bone marrow.
> 
> I thought you were specifically talking about chicken backs/necks being a culprit _("I have it pretty much narrowed down to chicken backs or necks being the biggest culprit")_ ... very different from marrow bones.
> 
> ...


Connie,

It's the backs and the necks that are by FAR the worst for him. I don't give a lot of marrow bones, so like you say, that is easy to omit. 

24 hours until my app...I can hardly wait. He is STILL sick this morning  AND got me up the last two nights in a row to go out. Damn, this pup is not feeling good and it killls me not to know why or what to do!!! ](*,)


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

_"I don't give a lot of marrow bones, so like you say, that is easy to omit. "_


I'm glad you go tomorrow. Please let us know.


Part of my intention with the comment about marrow bones was to clarify in general that marrow bones are not an essential part of a raw diet and can be omitted from the diets of puppies and adult dogs with no nutritional problem. 

Unfortunately, sometimes these large bones get mixed in, in perception, with the digestible bones in the RMBs that form the basis of a balanced raw diet. 

(I know that most of us here understand the difference, but maybe there are owners new to feeding raw who might read such a comment and then realize that soup bones and boneless muscle meat are a nutritional disaster to a dog, and worse for a growing puppy, because they need the kind of bones they eat, as many here have mentioned in their poultry quarters, chicken backs/necks, lamb necks, etc.)

This is not the only board where a little questioning about a random "raw diet" has uncovered a boneless ground beef "diet" being fed to a growing puppy who needs that missing calcium to make bones, teeth, and more.

So I throw it in every so often in the hope that someone new to raw will see it. 

Anyway, fingers crossed for you for tomorrow!


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## Tamara Champagne (Jan 20, 2009)

So, back from the vet with the news I figured we would get....EPI - unofficial as my vet said based on the history and the clinical symptoms and her exam, there was no point in doing blood work (apparently very expensive and has to be sent away to a clinic in Texas). The fat in his stool (which Sloan demonstrated for the vet while we were there lol) is enough to diagnose at this time.

At this point, it's obvious that he has SOME Pancreatic function as he does well on some meals...mostly just a common sense approach at this time.

No whole bones, or anything fatty - diet mostly of lean ground beef, fish, ground veggies, ground chicken with a LOW percentage of ground bone in the meat. She said that should be sufficient, but as Connie suggested, we could use the bone poweder should I be concerned about minerals or anything like that. Hopefully we can add some fish oil to his diet once we get him stabalized.

If the diet alone won't stabalize him (she said to try this and nothing else for 4 weeks) than we will go to supplementing with a pancreatic enzyme. She would like to see if we can get this turned around without that though, as she said the enzyme is VERY expensise...approx 100/mnth for a dog his size and not really that convenient to supplement with.

The good news, as I am told by my vet...is that in all her years of treating EPI, all but the most rare cases end up becoming stable and live a totally normal life. In her experience, she has not seen EPI get worse over the years, unless there was an underlying cause. So, she figures if I am careful with his diet and supplements that he will be fine.

Thanks to all that responded...fingers crossed that he stabalizes soon...for his sake AND mine!!


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## Maureen A Osborn (Feb 12, 2010)

You might want to try the enzyme that I suggested first, it is most definately a lot cheaper....it has pancreatic enzymes (amylase and lipase) plus others. http://www.gnc.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2957396&CAWELAID=293852835

Then there is this one made for dogs called Prozyme....
http://www.onlynaturalpet.com/produ...F0913C-4050-4332-9814-18734442DEAA&click=6875

The Rx Viokase is way expensive, and if your dog has some pancreatic function, may not need it.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I have no experience with this directly, but I have read that some have luck feeding raw pig or cow pancreas to dogs with EPI. For some, it appears to work very well although I understand that pancreas can be at times difficult to obtain.

Good luck with your dog.


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## Tamara Champagne (Jan 20, 2009)

Maureen A Osborn said:


> You might want to try the enzyme that I suggested first, it is most definately a lot cheaper....it has pancreatic enzymes (amylase and lipase) plus others. http://www.gnc.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2957396&CAWELAID=293852835
> 
> Then there is this one made for dogs called Prozyme....
> http://www.onlynaturalpet.com/produ...F0913C-4050-4332-9814-18734442DEAA&click=6875
> ...


 
Yes, I am gonna look in to that, thanks so much! He does still have some function so the vet agrees that a full supplementation of pancreas enzyme's may not be necessary. Here's hoping!! [-o<


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## Tamara Champagne (Jan 20, 2009)

Nicole Stark said:


> I have no experience with this directly, but I have read that some have luck feeding raw pig or cow pancreas to dogs with EPI. For some, it appears to work very well although I understand that pancreas can be at times difficult to obtain.
> 
> Good luck with your dog.


 
I've heard that it's difficult as well, but the folks I buy my RAW food from own the livestock and produce all the food themselves, so I will check with them and see if that would be a possibility.

My TD runs a big pig operation as well, so I will talk to him and see if he has any connections for this type of thing.

The beauty of living in Alberta is that we have a LOT of livestock here!!!


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

If you do manage to get hold of some you might get lucky and find that a little goes a long way.


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