# Wanting to "get it"



## Sally Crunkleton

Ok, this may seem like a generic question, but I have searched threads and see lots of opinions and good thoughts; however, breeding/genetics have never been a huge interest for me until the last couple of years.

With that being said, I have read lots and a few names keep popping up such as Pike, Mink, Fero, Karthago, and of course the true "DDR" lines. 

I have been looking back at my dog's pedigree and keep seeing these names over and over....Karthago, Nachbarschaft, Schafbachmuhle, and yada, yada. 

I have read on other threads and websites that some of these are the "real deal" in desireable traits, and have also read that some of these names are notorious for unmanageable personalities such as handler aggression, being too drivy for the average owner, or being physically tough, but too weaked minded and nervous. 

Since I have never been into breeding, but more concerned about the health (physical and mental) and ability of the dog to do what it was intended to do...I suppose this has become something I am now interested in. Especially after the hell I endured health-wise with my first dog Bronco. 

I would love to hear your thoughts on what truly is or is not producing what one could say is the "perfect" shepherd. By that I mean health first, then drive.

Here is my dog's pedigree...

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=568667

I have been told several things.....either "you have a real german shepherd", "wow", or "you will never be able to handle that dog once he's 90lbs". 

I can say, I really dont have any issues since he is maturing, except I do have to ask a man to help me hold him while doing bite-work! That's my fault, not his genes, I think!


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## Tiago Fontes

My advice:

Stop reading other people's opinions, for everyone has an agenda OR is just parroting what someone with an agenda has told them. 

Focus on your dog, if he is everything you want, then he is your ideal shepherd. 


Regards


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## Evan Stuart

I agree with Otago.

Also keep in mind that every puppy in a litter is not created equal. They are not clones. Some may be more similar in certain areas but just because the parents had a specific trait or issue doesn't necessarily mean the puppies will.


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## Tim Connell

Pedigrees can only be indicators, or sometimes predictors of qualities that _may_ have been present in past dogs, and what _may_ be present in resultant breedings...how well those mesh with various breeding combinations, and individual dogs from those lines can only be generalized. 

Arguably, much of what the total package of what the dog becomes is a combination and sum total of genetics, upbringing, experiences, imprinting of behaviors, training, and environmental exposure.

Agreed: Some people's opinions of dogs in a pedigree can be skewed by an individual's perception, which is not always reality, and sometimes the legend of the particular dog is better (or worse) than the dog itself. When researching, I try to talk to as many knowledgeable people as I can that are familiar with those particular dogs in question, and try to form a critical view based on this information. In my opinion, no one person can be a subject matter expert on every dog out there, so I rely on my resources for the best intel. 

Often, the best way to judge is to watch the dogs work, preferably in person. Just like a human athlete can have a very bad day, or a very exceptional day, seeing a dog work over a period of time is the best case scenario in judging it's performance. I place a high degree of weight on health, longevity, structure, athleticism, and various drives as a total package when I look at the total picture of the substance of a dog.


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## Sally Crunkleton

Agreed and good advice. 

I just was trying to "know my stuff" so to speak. I do believe it is up to me what I get out of him, no matter what the parents and so on accomplished,


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## Evan Stuart

Sorry, I meantt Tiago. Stupid auto-text...


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## Kat Hunsecker

you cannot train the pedigree.... is my philosphy....
It is good to know where your dogs heritige is, and what the quirks were... 
But really a lot depends on the upbringing and training.
your dog will be what you both bring to the table.....
You will ask 10 people and you will get 20 opinions! Your dog will show you what he is!


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## Don Turnipseed

Kat Hunsecker said:


> you cannot train the pedigree.... is my philosphy....
> It is good to know where your dogs heritige is, and what the quirks were...
> But really a lot depends on the upbringing and training.
> your dog will be what you both bring to the table.....
> You will ask 10 people and you will get 20 opinions! Your dog will show you what he is!


Old breeding standard. " Gentics determines what a dog CAN be, environment determines what a dog WILL be" Both are limiting in their own way. One by heritage, the other by you as the dogs owner. Still can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear regardless of how good a trainer one is. But, you can get a better looking sows ear.


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## Brian Anderson

Please see my signature

If you like the dog and he gets it done for you...he's a good dog..to hell with genetics, peds blah blah...JMO


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## Don Turnipseed

Brian Anderson said:


> Please see my signature
> 
> If you like the dog and he gets it done for you...he's a good dog..to hell with genetics, peds blah blah...JMO


I have seen it Amigo. It is also true. If someone is happy with their dog, end of game. Of course, most people in this world are happy with Chevys and Fords. Having a Ferrari is, and always will be out of reach.....but they can still dream. That is just the way it is meant to be, because, if through some miracle they got a Ferrari, they would still just drive it like a Chevy because they just don't know how to use a Ferraris full potential. Why does it work like this? Because, all they have ever had is Fords and Chevy's so they just don't know how to handle a real power car(dog). :wink:


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## Don Turnipseed

To expand on my last post a bit. You also got those that really want that Ferrari, but can't get it. They get em a Ford or a Chevy with the illusion they can put some time and money into it and it will be as good as a Ferrari. Well after a lot of time and money, what do they have? No matter how much time or money or how good of a mechanic they think they are......they still got a Ford or a Chevy. It's a lot like genetics. No matter what you put into it, it is still a Ford or a Chevy. If you want a Ferrari, you got to start with a Ferrari.


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## Brian Anderson

Don Im tryin buddy but you lost me about 3 chevys ago lol .... all I am saying is "who gives a shit what anyone thinks or what a ped says about the dog on the end of the lead your toting...if you like the dog its all that matters.


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## Sally Crunkleton

Ok, I get cars a little, but I relate more to Prada vs Coach! Lol! 

I am starting to think I may have not relayed my thoughts properly....so I want to make it clear that I LOVE my dog, and so far so good with health. He also has plenty of "drive" for whatever I ask him to do. I am biased and believe he is wonder-dog.

I was only curious in regards to his lineage and was sure people on here had experience with some of the names. I personally could give a rat's behind about the titles and all behind it. I do know from experience that pedigree does not dictate everything. 

My main concern with a dog is health. 
All the rest is up to me. It would be like having that Prada bag and never using it.

I was just wanting a little history lesson, not at all wondering if I ended up with a Ford instead of a Ferrari.


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## Don Turnipseed

That makes it easier. Just see what you can find out about the longevity of the dogs in the pedigree and don't worry about the rest.


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## rick smith

to me, pedigrees are :
1. bragging rights for people to talk about especially when lots of titles and "big names" show up ... of course the dog can't read and doesn't care 
2. required paperwork in some instances
3. tell very little about health and longevity ... tell NOTHING about drives behaviors or anything else that is very important
4. marketing fodder that often drives up the price 
5. might help someone make a buying decision if they can't see the lines for real

did i leave out anything important ?


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## Sally Crunkleton

I think you covered it well...


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## Jerry Lyda

OK Sally it's my turn. The dog you have is a tuff A$$ and he knows you DA boss. He works hard has great nerves and learns very fast. He's strong and has tons of drive. I see know reason why you can't do anything you want with all he has to offer. Very nice dog.

See you and him soon. I hope you're feeling better.


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## Sally Crunkleton

Well everyone knows he's certainly stronger than I am! Lol!

I think my question was not taken how I meant, but I hope to see you in a few days and we can discuss my tough A$$ pistol 

Actually, I will buzz you shortly!


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## James Downey

I think to say pedigrees are completely useless in breeding is kind of nieve. We did not get dogs that we have by accident. 

But based on that, pedigrees are but a clue to what you might get from a pair. They are a useful tool. But Rick, I do believe you are right in saying that they are over rated at times. 

The basis of having a "breed" is that the genetics are tight enough that the parents produce puppies that look and act like thier parents....Again to a point. Lines narrow this down And as we all know Breeding is far from an exact science. But I can, to a degree, look at a pedigree and see which combinations of dogs do produce good puppies. There are trends.


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## Sally Crunkleton

@ James- thank you!

That was my entire purpose in the original question....I would like to learn the names and history behind them, and like you- have a basic gage for what I'm looking at.

I see loads of back and forth on names, breeders, and what really is and isn't "quality". Yes, all of that can be a matter of opinion....but I am interested only in being able to glance at names and have an idea what could come of it. 

For example if I see the name "Buster" pop up, I would like to know whether or not lots of his progeny developed dm, hd, etc....or if they were all nuts and had a history of eating children. 

I have no interest in breeding and could currently anyway, I just wanted be able to know for myself who is breeding what, and if it is what I think is legit.


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## Peter Cavallaro

Sally good questions, the only answer I know is first find out whose winning what and look for a common denominator, unfortunately this excludes all practical working dogs. But is a starting point.


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## Don Turnipseed

Sally Crunkleton said:


> @ James- thank you!
> 
> That was my entire purpose in the original question....I would like to learn the names and history behind them, and like you- have a basic gage for what I'm looking at.
> 
> I see loads of back and forth on names, breeders, and what really is and isn't "quality". Yes, all of that can be a matter of opinion....but I am interested only in being able to glance at names and have an idea what could come of it.
> 
> For example if I see the name "Buster" pop up, I would like to know whether or not lots of his progeny developed dm, hd, etc....or if they were all nuts and had a history of eating children. I have no interest in breeding and could currently anyway, I just wanted be able to know for myself who is breeding what, and if it is what I think is legit.


Jerry said you have one heck of a dog...do you know what a powerful dog looks like ....or have you been brought up on Chevy's? As for the healt factors....doesn't matter much now. You have the dog, work with it and don't worry about what it might be....what you have is right in front of you.





Sally, pedigrees are for buying a dog and possibly stscking the odds in your favor. If you already have the dog, forget the pedigree and just look at what is sitting in front of you. That is what you have to judge. Doesn't matter what any dog in the rest of the pedigree has done because they are not the dog sitting in front of you.


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## Jerry Lyda

All you guys are missing the point. Sally IS VERY pleased with her dog as she should be. It's not her dog she was asking about. She was asking about pedigrees in general and certain dogs in those pedigrees and what to look for. Her dog is a very nice well bred dog. I bet you all this , it want be long and she'll know the good dogs to look for in a pedigree and which two dogs will make a better educated guess on what the pups should be like. She's not even a breeder But she wants to know. Guys, IF a women wants to know something or anything, for God's sake don't get in her way. LOL get'um Sally.


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## Don Turnipseed

I get it Jerry. All I am saying is, at this point, why worry about what might be there when she is looking right at the dog she wants to know more about. it is there in the flesh. Anything past that is just a maybe. Way to much time spent on what might be rather than what is. Half the dogs in the pedigree "could" have bad hips or whatever.....doesn't mean her dog will. If she likes the dog and it is a good one, forget about all the what if's.


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## Peter Cavallaro

What the hell is wrong with u lately Don, u is gettin all deep and sh!t.


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## Don Turnipseed

Always been too deep Peter.


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## Peter Cavallaro

I dunno man, I never clicked on it but yr most recent thread title didn't sound too zen.


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## Don Turnipseed

Probably too deep for ya.


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## James Downey

Peter, 

No offense but your calling that deep?, Don saying....**** it, just breed him. Deep. I say that's post was the opposite of deep. It screamed more of...apathy or ignorance. 

This was the question she asked.
I would love to hear your thoughts on what truly is or is not producing what one could say is the "perfect" shepherd. By that I mean health first, then drive.

Now, I am going to say...I do not know shepherds. but I know the answer is not: it's a good dog, just breed it. I do not think that kind of thinking is going to save the shepherd.

I mean I could see how a person who wants reward in the short term could think like that. But anyone who gives a shit about endurance of thier breed might wanna put in a littler more research abou what they are passing on.

-sweet Cheeks


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## Peter Cavallaro

OK, its not deep then


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## Sally Crunkleton

Thank God someone read the question. 

I only referenced my dog's pedigree as an example. I will say again I LOVE my dog, he is here to stay, he is a monster when need be, then can be a kissy-face when need be, and I have never seen any issues that would ever make me question if I can handle him or not. 

I have been given some resources for research and will just start studying. 

Oh, and thanks James and Jerry.

Now back to my research, and I will get this....


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## Don Turnipseed

Peter, Sweet Cheeks believes that the dogs we have today were done off pedigrees. That is naive. Even the KNPV dogs are bred, not off of pedigrees originally, but of what worked to what worked. That is also how most true working dogs are actually bred. When someone needs a dog to do a job, they could give a rip what a pdeigree says.....they judge the dog in front of them. Also, the op clearly stated she was not a breeder. Take it for what it is worth. Apparently the thread is to deep for sweet cheeks to follow.


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## James Downey

Don Turnipseed said:


> Peter, Sweet Cheeks believes that the dogs we have today were done off pedigrees. That is naive. Even the KNPV dogs are bred, not off of pedigrees originally, but of what worked to what worked. That is also how most true working dogs are actually bred. When someone needs a dog to do a job, they could give a rip what a pdeigree says.....they judge the dog in front of them. Also, the op clearly stated she was not a breeder. Take it for what it is worth. Apparently the thread is to deep for sweet cheeks to follow.


The Op stated she wanted to learn about breeding/and genetics, that was a direct quote. 

And yes, when I want to work that particular dog...I judge that dog. Duh! 

As for KNPV., many of the dogs were mongrels. So, Nothing matched up in those cases. And many do have pedigrees....gee I wonder why they did that? Maybe it was so they could match genetics. And saying "that's how KNPV dogs are bred, is like saying that all people in California are liberals. In KNPV there are probably as many breeding theories as there are breeders. And Don come on, the OP even said, that's what she was looking for. Not your blathering about having a good dog and just breeding it. There is no better proof that I understand what she was getting at than that. 

And in the terms of making "breeds"....That's exactly how we got them. That's why there are breeds. Go back to the begining of the Malinois you will see names like Tommy, T'jop, and Cora over and over again. They were not just breeding good dogs together. they were breeding Certain good dogs, with certain ancestory back to each other. To get certain genetic traits.

Anyone can throw to good dogs in backyard and make them have sex...that ain't breeding. That's hoping. Breeding is knowing that if you just throw 2 good dogs together you can get a big bag of shit still. Breeding, is trying to find the trends in ancestory that make superior combinations. In the last few years of the FCI championships. There were multiple dogs in the top 10, shit top 25. whom, had Lupano's Duke on one side, and Klemm vom Rotten falken on the other and some had Gismo on the top or bottom. That's more than just breeding 2 good dogs together. That's breeding the right 2 good dogs together. 


There is oodles of scientific evidence that shows the more tight the genes, the more the genetic traits of the dogs are expressed in the pups. the more you outcross the more divergance in the litter. So you could go back to KNPV and see that some bred mongrels, did not keep pedigrees. You will also see that they got a lot more dogs that could not work then they did ones that could.


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## Sally Crunkleton

Why can't we all just spay and neuter?!


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## jim stevens

I have no experience breeding dogs, but a lot of experience with people breeding horses by looking at the individual, not the total pedigrees. Evaluating an individual and breeding on that basis only is a strategy with a high likelihood of failure. I've seen numerous examples of that, the reason it doesn't work (in general) is that the horse (or dog) may inherit traits from farther back in the pedigree than just their parents. Maybe the parents are great individuals from common as dirt pedigrees, then their offspring take back from the second row of the pedigree and what you end up with is common as dirt. At the same time, I've seen lots of mares from great stallions who were very average themselves, but produced offspring that were fantastic. Why? Because they tossed the genetics of their pedigree in their offspring rather than their specific abilities. Genetics is genetics and it doesn't matter whether it is a dog or a horse or a bull. There are also some studs that breed strong and you can virtually pick their offspring out of a crowd, they 'stamp' their brand on them. This is only proven by time. I can name literally hundreds of great horses (again dogs can't be different) who were very poor producers as breeders, and vice versa. You can't count on an animal with a crap pedigree who is great as an individual to produce with any certainty. Period. I can see that James understands what I'm saying, Don doesn't. Look at the dog you have only and breed it and you are in for a disappointment.


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## Don Turnipseed

Two different worlds Jim. Breeding horses is more like breeding greyhounds. Their successes are bases on who crosses the finish line first. Very tangible thing there. What are pedigrees bases o n today? Games, competitions, different judges say so and Titles. ALL very much open to interpretation. Sadly most people lean heavily on pedigrees because it is all they got since the dogs can't be judged on merits of real work. One has to wonder how all these pedigrees came into being. The other reason for strict reliance on pedigrees today is because you have hobby breeders with a dog...breed to a titlled dog every time so the offspring are saleable for more money. How many people in dogs today, not 40 years ago, has developed an actual line of dogs that encompasses generations. You got mostly breed to this title and that title today.


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## jim stevens

Breeding is breeding, whether a bull, horse, or dog. The last time I checked breeding a race horse was breeding for performance, and the pedigree matters. Dogs, horses, both will be in front of different judges, and different opinions obviously. That doesn't change a thing. I show cutting horses, which are ultimately cow horses. I hear constantly from people who don't have a horse good enough to compete that the 'show' horses won't hold up in ranch work, etc like their 'real' horse. One guy even brought up names of three of the old line Texas ranches, remarking how the 'show' lines wouldn't keep up in their everyday use. Unfortunately I was familiar with the ranches, and all their studs that they stand are out of current cutting 'show' blood, so they are using them. Most of these guys who say my 'show' horse can't cut everyday use have a 300 pound overweight grass feeder, while mine has been ridden three times a week since she was 20 months old, and is hard as iron, and never taken a lame step. It is a way of compensating for the fact that their animals really aren't capable of competing. 

Genetics and breeding methods don't vary from horses and dogs. The best ones are often somewhat inbred/linebred to purify the traits you want. I'm sure there are also magic crosses in the dog world, just as in cutting horses and race horses, plenty more matings of two great individuals that don't work out.

By the way, I also show under different judges, interpretations, etc, just as sport dog owners do, they keep a scorecard and record every miss/fault etc and we can look at them afterwards. The 'real' horse people don't want anyone to mark down all the faults that their animals make, they keep their own scorecard. In their head.


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## James Downey

Don Turnipseed said:


> Two different worlds Jim. Breeding horses is more like breeding greyhounds. Their successes are bases on who crosses the finish line first. Very tangible thing there. What are pedigrees bases o n today? Games, competitions, different judges say so and Titles. ALL very much open to interpretation. Sadly most people lean heavily on pedigrees because it is all they got since the dogs can't be judged on merits of real work. One has to wonder how all these pedigrees came into being. The other reason for strict reliance on pedigrees today is because you have hobby breeders with a dog...breed to a titlled dog every time so the offspring are saleable for more money. How many people in dogs today, not 40 years ago, has developed an actual line of dogs that encompasses generations. You got mostly breed to this title and that title today.


 
Blah, Blah, Blah... All Assumptions, all made up in Donny's head...None of it based in fact, experience or anything else....He read it on the internet. There is arguments to each point he conjured up in his head, but I am afraid that even when you do point out the holes....He denies them like an Alcoholic at an AA Meeting.

Donny, Donny, Donny....your like a child who wanders into a movie..... Nevermind I cannot do it justice.... I will let John Goodman, as walter explain.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AS8X2Qp_6aA


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## Don Turnipseed

Pedigrees make some difference Jim. Never said it should be ignored. Other than that, you are pretty much talking about stuff you don't have a clue about. Breeding horses is not like breeding dogs at all. Let's see if you can figure this out in one question. How many winners vs losers does a horse throw at birth as opposed to, say a litter of 12 pups?


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## James Downey

Don Turnipseed said:


> Pedigrees make some difference Jim. Never said it should be ignored. Other than that, you are pretty much talking about stuff you don't have a clue about. Breeding horses is not like breeding dogs at all. Let's see if you can figure this out in one question. How many winners vs losers does a horse throw at birth as opposed to, say a litter of 12 pups?


How many winners vs. losers at birth? WTF does that mean. 

Don, if you can pick the winners when they are babies...You'd be rich.


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## Don Turnipseed

James, your a laugh a minute. Maybe someone can give you some insight as to how well Secretariate produced. Two decent horses out of hundreds. Sure sounds like the way to go to me. Million for a stud fee to boot. Thousands of horses produced by pedigree. The key word is produced. Considering the numbers, very few true champions. But, what you do know is..."This is how everyone does it". Same with dogs. You can't even put 2 and 2 together James.


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## jim stevens

And your point is???? That there are more duds than studs? I knew that already.

By the way, I thought you were all wet, I'm not a thoroughbred man, but looked at pedigreequery counted at least 56 of his progeny that won at least $100,000 and 10-15 that won over half a million and several at over a million, hardly a washout as a breeding horse IMO. This is not a complete list of all his progeny, just the ones someone has entered. I'm thinking that his pedigree worked out OK. Whatever you are talking about, more good animals are produced that exceptional ones, that's why they are called exceptional.


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## James Downey

Don Turnipseed said:


> James, your a laugh a minute. Maybe someone can give you some insight as to how well Secretariate produced. Two decent horses out of hundreds. Sure sounds like the way to go to me. Million for a stud fee to boot. Thousands of horses produced by pedigree. The key word is produced. Considering the numbers, very few true champions. But, what you do know is..."This is how everyone does it". Same with dogs. You can't even put 2 and 2 together James.


Hmm? Not sure if that even remotely answered my question. But again, I am talking to a guy who thinks he is answering a Math problem?

I am not following you Don, you just proved my point. Breeding the good horse, produced what....2 fowl worth a shit. 

Here's the skinny Donny. 

1. The single largest factor that predicts phenotype is believe it or not, is not the parents phenotype. But the parents genotype....that is a ****ing scientific conclusive fact. But other influences are there, mutation, phenotypical platicity... Now, I do not know shit about Secretariate. but we will assume he was anonmally of his genotype. Which is true, his phenotype was abnormal for horses all around...he was different.

So now we have Secretariate. Who has produced 2 good horses. But has produced thousands. So that proves Secretariate was not a producer of his phenotype. But I bet he still produced his Genotype.

Basically, Science says, the chances of secretariate producing himself...are very slim. He's going to produce the genetics he has. Making the pedigree, well....worth looking at.


I get the sneaking suspicion you think using pedigrees means looking for dogs who have succeeded. I am not looking for winners. I am looking for Genes. I used Vion at the top of his Game, Little do most people know, John Soares and I had been playing ping pong, trying to match my dogs heats to his trial schedule for 2 years. I just got lucky that he had a good run. I was not after the winner, I was after the Genotype that made him, his father and his grandfather. Because I want to take that Genotype and cross it with another dog...who had a good run, but was not the world champ. But has proven to have a strong genotype. 

Don, not everyone is after the titles. Debbie skinner has been breeding amazing dogs regardless of where they are in the sport career....I do not think she has hand one problem moving pups. And the pups are incredible. BTW she has a program I would consider to be "lines". 

It seems like the internet heroes, have this doom and gloom view of working dogs. Thier are very good dogs out there, At least in Malinois. The breedings, the dogs...what is happening...It's pretty incredible right now I think. Everyone always claims that the dogs of old were this or that....I have seen the dogs get nothing but better in the last 10 years. Trials have gotten harder.... I think people just like crisis, and bitching.


Sit down Don.


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## Don Turnipseed

James, I get the distinct feeling you don't really know what you are talking about. Add that to the fact that Jim gave you a pat on the back....but he doesn't breed at all but gave you the pat for being on the same page. After all, breeding horses is the same as breeding dogs. Your probably on the same page there also. LOL In the end, you can beleive what you want to believe.


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## Jerry Lyda

Granted, I've done no research on these horses. Seems to me that Secretariate was bred because of what he did and not so much as his pedigree but I'm sure his pedigree had a lot to do with him being produced. Chances are if he is bred to a wonder horse he should at least produce good for the money horses.

He never reproduced himself as a lot of dogs don't.


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## Don Turnipseed

Jerry, seems I was informed all performance horses were bred by pedigree. Of course, you get a great one, it makes the pedigree of the day.


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## jim stevens

Don

Just for the record Secretariat was by Bold Ruler (thoroughbred hall of famer) who also sired another hall of fame tbred besides Secretariat. His dam's sire was where he got the distance speed. He held the record at Saratoga for 1 3/4 miles. That is a long race, Don, just so you know. But of course he wasn't bred for his pedigree! Bold Ruler is also a grandsire of Spectacular Bid, Foolish Pleasure and great grandsire of Seattle Slew. Spectacular Bid and Foolish Pleasure won the Kentucky Derby, Seattle Slew was a triple crown winner. None of these were bred for their pedigree.
By the way, I am not a dog breeder, but grew up on a ranch bred 300 cows a year, 20 mares, and we usually had between 10 and 20 **** and foxhounds and 2-3 pointers. We have registered a quarter horse foal every year for fifty consecutive years, which puts my family into an elite 50-year breeders award, so not inexperienced as a breeder. Genetics is science, breeding is a mix of science and art.

Let's hear your credentials.

I currently have room for a couple of horses, have one old mare that we raised. I have now bred her three times and all three foals are money earners in the National Cutting Horse Assoc. The one I'm riding now is out of her, we raised her dam, her mother's dam, and her mother's dam. 

What has your breeding produced?


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## Don Turnipseed

jim stevens said:


> Don
> 
> Just for the record Secretariat was by Bold Ruler (thoroughbred hall of famer) who also sired another hall of fame tbred besides Secretariat. His dam's sire was where he got the distance speed. He held the record at Saratoga for 1 3/4 miles. That is a long race, Don, just so you know. But of course he wasn't bred for his pedigree! Bold Ruler is also a grandsire of Spectacular Bid, Foolish Pleasure and great grandsire of Seattle Slew. Spectacular Bid and Foolish Pleasure won the Kentucky Derby, Seattle Slew was a triple crown winner. None of these were bred for their pedigree.
> By the way, I am not a dog breeder, but grew up on a ranch bred 300 cows a year, 20 mares, and we usually had between 10 and 20 **** and foxhounds and 2-3 pointers. We have registered a quarter horse foal every year for fifty consecutive years, which puts my family into an elite 50-year breeders award, so not inexperienced as a breeder. Genetics is science, breeding is a mix of science and art.
> 
> Let's hear your credentials.
> 
> I currently have room for a couple of horses, have one old mare that we raised. I have now bred her three times and all three foals are money earners in the National Cutting Horse Assoc. The one I'm riding now is out of her, we raised her dam, her mother's dam, and her mother's dam.
> 
> What has your breeding produced?


Good dogs, just good dogs that like to work.


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## Don Turnipseed

I got to wonder how old you are Jim. Your family seems to have been doing this for 50 years. How long you been watching.


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## James Downey

Don Turnipseed said:


> I got to wonder how old you are Jim. Your family seems to have been doing this for 50 years. How long you been watching.


Little late to shoot his crediability Don, He just owned that ass.


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## Don Turnipseed

Wishfull thinking Sweet Cheeks? For all we know, Jim may be 20 years old. What his family may have done has nothing to do with it other than to gain credibility. That's why I asked. From some of his statements, I would say is is past twenty. From others, maybe not twenty yet.


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## jim stevens

That doesn't work either Don. Within the next week, I'll be 55. I went to AI school and bred 100 head of cattle myself at 15. I think this was breeding in the literal sense as I had my left arm up their butt with my fingers around their cervix. My dad was a true hound man who believed in pedigrees and performance. As a matter of fact, they took it to the ultimate, a dog that didn't hunt as they should took a trip to the timber with a .22 rifle and he came back with a rifle and a collar, no dog. Those old hound men wouldn't even sell a shitty dog, they took the one way trip to the timber.


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## Don Turnipseed

Something here just isn't fittimng right Jim. You're npot a breeder, yet you have been breeding all ypour life, according to you, and you think breeding horses. cattle and dogs is even remotely on the same plane.

What is laughable, is that my rendition of driving the Fords and Chevy's was in response to Kat's post about "you make a dog what it is". That is only true to a point. Dog has to have something to start with.Same point I was making with the silk purse and the sows ear. Seems both you and James missed the point to start with but it was nice to learn genetics is science, breeding horses is no different than breeding dogs etc.

Your dad sounds like a standup guy. Been on a lot of last walks myself. Waited at the truck while friends came back with empty collars also. Just the way it is/was done when you got a dog that don't get the job done.


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## cynthia wiley

ewww, i just love a good discussion and here is my two cents;

it has been determined that not only genetics but also imprinting, training and environment all play a part into ones "chevy or ford". however, if one that is green to the world of working dogs accidentally acquires let say a ferrari, not knowing how to imprint, train or have access to helpers, that person is absolutely in my opinion able to squash what could be a ferrari because of the dogs totality of environment and lack of knowledge trainer.

another specific that i read is regarding the health of the animal. whether it comes from lines of genetic faults of this or that. it was posted that you have the dog you have and that those factors don't matter much now. just to work the dog you have in front of you. i think that is an accurate statement depending on what you want to accomplish. but what is in the pedigree is also a prelude as to what you can sort of expect. if you have a dog (i'm not talking about your dog sally) that comes from lines whom have never accomplished anything it would not be fair to the dog to expect him/her to be able to accomplish more than its predecessors. you might get lucky and end up with a dog that would be a "freak" from a litter, however, the odds are not in your favor. bottom line is, if you like your dog and are happy with what he brings to the table for you, then that is all that matters. but there are those in sport that truly study the pedigrees of animals in order to stack the odds in their favor before purchasing a dog or a horse. it would be like the coach vs prada situation. if you purchased a prada purse lets say online and you were not able to hold it on your shoulder or arm, you might end up paying a bundle for a pocketbook that is too heavy for your frame. so it sits in your closet. on the other hand if you are able to go to the store and hold that same prada in your hands or on your shoulder and you make an accurate decision based on known factors of how that prada works on your body, you are more likely to have a pocketbook that you will be able to enjoy for many years. these two scenarios i think relate to your original question regarding your dog. known vs unknown. what i have found out, is that if you want to know anything about your dog or its pedigree health, drive or whatever, you must do the research yourself. then you decide for yourself what you like and what you can expect.

someone else pointed out that pedigrees would give you more consistency in the offspring because of genetics. this is absolutely true and you can take it to the bank. it will not guarantee you a world champion but again, the odds for an animal that comes from a proven pedigree has a better chance for what you are looking for rather than an animal that is being bred based on the present factor of what is in front of you. i'm not saying you have no chance of getting a duplicate copy, but the odds are much, much less.

i do whole heartedly agree that genetics are a part of every animal on this planet, whether it is a dog, a horse, a cat or a cow, or for that matter a human. genetics speak for themselves. if you are a human and come from an obese family, chances are you are going to be obese. if you come from a family that has a strong line of cancer, heart problems or any other health issue, chances are you are going to have some of those same issues. 

really, breeding with a known factor of genetics is not like breeding horses to greyhounds. the bases is not just about who crossed the finish line first. it is lets say, much deeper than that. breeding horses rely upon several known factors from a pedigree regarding such things as speed vs distance, the ability to endure, the ability to drive etc. things such as finding out that your horse does or does not like the mud are more of an individual aspect in a horse. in and of itself, a pedigree obviously will not take you across the finish line in front. but given the correct blend of talent and you have just up'ed your chances by far. it may give you the drive to bare down when you are surrounded by horses in a field with only a slight opening ahead. you can either sit where you are and hope someone else fades or you can push through that hole because you have the strong desire to be in front. i've seen horses take jockeys through holes that weren't even there. i've also seen it where horses actually hang on another horse. the first horse will be out front, then a second one catches him down the lane and guess what, the first horse just hangs and slowly fades usually because of lack of drive/desire. but then you take the ones like secretariat or zenyatta, now that is drive/desire and pedigree. the same holds true in dogs. look at your world champions and see what they all have in common not only desire/drive but also pedigree.

yes it is very, very sad that people want to buy animals because of bloodlines and then puppy mill them because of their pedigree. it happens not only in dogs, but horses as well. to me, those are the low-lifes of any sport. 

hardcore fact is that even if you have a phenomenally well bred animal and then they end up in green hands, hands that just don't click with that animal or even worse abusive hands, that animal will usually never reach its full potential. you can break an animal and i don't mean to ride him. you can break his spirit. say you have a nice horse, but you just aren't able to get anything out of that animal. another guy sees that horse in a claiming race, buys that horse and starts to train this same horse just in another way. but something is different, this horse is responding to your training methods and ends up being a graded stakes horse, all because of training methods or lack there of. so yes, pedigree isn't everything, but given the right circumstances with that known factor of pedigree, you'll have a much better opportunity of doing well. how many times have you heard i wish this dog was like my third dog! yes, that person is admitting to lack of knowledge with the right dog just at the wrong time.

oh boy, and here is my favorite part of the discussion; about secretariat and how well he produced. well, i can tell you first hand, but we'll start of with a few facts about "big red". secretariat was a breeding that happened because of bloodlines. penny chenery (and i knew her personally as i worked at the meadow farm where big red was born), came from a well to do family with many mares to choose from. i won't get into the history of the meadow or all the champions they had over the years. most people don't even know that secretariat's mother was an un-raced mare. she fractured her leg one morning in the starting gates. somethingroyal, was kept and bred to bold ruler because of pedigree. bold ruler was known for speed and produced countless famous horses. he was one of the most used stud horses in history, why, because of his pedigree and ability to produce. somethingroyal was by princequillo a horse known for endurance and distance. the magic of this breeding made history. so yes, secretariat was brought into this world with a plan. secretariat still holds the record for winning by the greatest distance at the belmont than any other to date. he had that drive to open up, even when he was ahead, he just flat out loved to run. but did you know, that when big red was first in training, they couldn't get him to work faster than 37 and change for 3/8's of a mile? that is like walking. people use to talk about how all he wanted to do was eat and lay down. there was a time, when they weren't sure what the outcome would be for this horse. but obviously, one day he woke up. funny, years later around the tracks i worked at all over the country, people now started to say; "good horses lay down a lot". wow, gotta love human nature.

as far as a stud horse, i'll have to agree that he wasn't what most expected, however, now in this second and third generation of big red, well the horses are out there and all you have to do is look at the pedigrees when they come across the finish line first. it is also very sad to say that secretariat was exploited because of his popularity. breedings that should have never happened did and because of this, the percentages were distorted. however, it is only human to want the next winner and some people still think they can squeeze blood out of a turnip, no pun intended. you can't match up a great pedigree with a crappy one and expect the great one to take over. it just doesn't work that way. 

take klem in europe, he was one of the most decorated dogs ever and is a pillar of the malinois community. however, you cannot expect klem to carry a litter if what you are breeding is not so desirable.

oh and one more thing about big red, upon autopsy, they found he had an extra large heart. benefits; more oxygen in, means longer endurance and speed. but don't discount the fact that he had drive to spare. he just knew when to turn it on and when to set it on cruise. yes, he had a great pedigree, but was also a freak of nature. i'll bet when they autopsy zenyatta, they will find the same thing with her. but then again, she has an awesome pedigree and old princequillo is in hers too. that mare comes from behind like nothing you've ever seen. she won 18 races out of 19. she lost her last one, which is still talked about today. she beat all the boys in the toughest breeders cup race of them all, the classic. when she lost in that same race a year later, she was over seven years old the oldest horse in the race by far and still only lost by a head coming from way behind. i'd have to say, that is a pretty good record for pedigree and bloodlines.

oh and sally girl, it sounds like you are on your way to a wealth of knowledge... ;D best wishes for you and your dog.


c, c and i


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## jim stevens

I have also been told (by horse folks) that the big heart is inherited from the mare's side only.


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## Daryl Ehret

Mares to sons and daughters, studs only to their daughters.


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## Don Turnipseed

Great post Cynthia. What it boils down to is looking at pedigrees is another way of stacking the odds in ones favor, but, is in no way going to guarantee the outcome. We hear about how many great horses were produced, but, there is always many less than famous progeny produced along the way. It is a numbers game. Gets even trickier when you get to dogs because of the numbers produced. In my mind, there is a world of difference between breeding dogs and horses, especially in the methodologies needed to stack those odds in ones favor. I have looked at a lot of pedigrees over the years. The one thing that catches my eye is the lack of purpose on these pedigrees. In dogs, what I look for first is the same names and bloodlines close together. Without that, you best be able to pick the best one or two out of the litter at an early age. Here is a typical pedigree so, me personally, I don't look at others pedigrees. I recently brought in an East German pup. A real learning experience to see the vast differences in my pups and the German pup. Still getting used to it. Didn't see the pedigree, didn't even know who the dam was. Didn't even know how titled the dogs were until Stew sent me the pedigree. Just needed new blood and I got it. My need was a dog that was heavily line bred and you just can't find any in the US bred this way today.
This litter is 12 generation and is a fascinating experience in itself just noting some of the very subtle differences in the pups


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## cynthia wiley

never heard that, but it makes sense. princequillo in the pedigree was the distance horse where the endurance part of the breeding came in. bold ruler was almost strictly speed. 

on the flip side, i once helped train a horse at santa anita that was bred speed on speed. needless to say, she was a nut case and they ruled her off the tracks for life. she had two chances too. she was at the track and they decided she needed to have some more management of her attitude. so they took her back to the ranch and worked her ass off up in the hills. four miles up and four miles back. after a few months of this, they decided it was time to bring her back to the track. funny, second time around, all that had changed is that now, they had a very physically fit nut job. she was even more dangerous. but this is a typical example of poor breeding choices. bold ruler lines were run in the ground too.

c, c and i


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## cynthia wiley

thank you don. but i think that is what jim and james are saying too, just in a different way. they are looking for specific genetic traits. most are analyzing these traits and bloodlines that will stack the deck for them. i don't think that james picked vion out of a magic hat. he studied the lines and specific genetics for what he thought would add to his breeding choice. i don't think that anyone has an absolute answer to any animal. lets take a famous name living now, that not to long ago bought back a puppy they he had sold to someone else and now that dog is his it dog. obvious mistake. however, his choice in breeding was calculated. so what is now, could be something entirely different later. but i think that james and jim both know this. i believe that most people here are trying to help their particular breed along. yes, i agree that the gene pool here in the states unless influenced by europe where the breeding of these working dogs are much older, you will have to try and tip the scales in another way. vion obviously has european lines and is a very nice dog. i have personally seen this dog train and he is a monster dog!! ;D i love monsters...

i just think that sometimes people kinda get all twisted up in their opinions and put their emotions in posts. then it always seems to get dirty at that point when actually people are kinda saying the same thing, only different. 

i'm sure you are trying to bring the best to your lines in your way, the same way that james is doing. i don't really know about other breeds, i'm a mali girl and i've just started my studies with them. my advantage; i have had some practice with the horses many moons ago.

c, c and i


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## Don Turnipseed

To put it in a nutshell, there is simply no way of knowing what a cross will produce until you are looking at it. It is a numbers game from the get go. We may all be saying the same thing to an extent.....but obviously not in it's entirety believe me.


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## cynthia wiley

one thing i can say for sure don, nothing in this life is a sure bet, except death and taxes. 

however, if you step on the outside of the circle and look into it, you will see that you and james are very close to being one in the same. he uses genetic traits, genes that are passed on, you like to see the same dog named close together in the bloodlines. those dogs that are line bred closely together, also carry certain traits/genes that make them stand out from the crowd. whether you call it a winner or a mentally and physically correct dog that shows promise, i think that is what most breeders are breeding for. if you are a breeder solely, i think you want to be able to produce pretty consistent animals. training is obviously an important secondary issue. but from birth, and i know that pups vary within a litter, hell people vary within the same family, from the same mother and father. for instance, i'm no where near what my sister is, she is tall and model like with a history of magna cum laude and three medical degrees. i on the other hand born just five years earlier, is much more athletic and creative, not so book smart though, however the same parents. i also had a twin sister that was exactly like me. so i believe that if you do your homework, you can stack the percentages in your favor for whatever you are looking for in a breeding whether you call it genes or line breeding traits. you might not get exactly what you want the first time as previously discussed, pups do vary within a litter or the next litter same parents. however, i do however, believe that some people line breed so tight that it can make for instability in an animal. for instance if you were to breed because you like the aggressiveness of one particular dog, so you line bred the crap out of it. i don't think it would take long before you ended with a few real nut jobs just like the filly i was talking about earlier. i think you could also breed into that same factor health issues. but one of the main things i think you do is narrow the gene pool. i think it was a good thing you brought in new blood for your breed. however, james was looking at gismo and klem, both nice dogs from europe to add to his usa lines. it sounds like to me that he wanted to compliment his female. i think that everyone needs to do that every once in awhile and not just line breed. it just leads to too many issues down the road.

i'm lucky because i have a very well bred mali from the usa and i have a very well bred german dog that i imported over a year ago. and yes, don, the differences in the dogs are not only physical, but mentally, are a world apart.

c, c and i


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## brad robert

The great Phar Lap from over here had an over sized heart too


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## cynthia wiley

yeap brad and i love me some phar lap too. he was one of the greats!!! ;D


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## Jerry Lyda

Cynthia, thanks.


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## cynthia wiley

well, i'm not sure what i did jerry to deserve your thanks, but thank you for that. i just wanted to add another point of view from outside the circle... ;D

c, c and i


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## Louise Jollyman

OK Sally, to try to answer your question about particular dogs, here are a few of my experiences over the last 10 years. Obviously different people will have different experiences from the same lines and also will like different things......

Ugo Burenswald - handler aggression, poor tracking, weak females.

Tom Leefdaalhof - excellent natural tracking, good grips and barking, many current competition dogs from Ellute Mohnwiese and Vito Waldwinkel, both Tom sons. Some do not handle stress well, particularly females. Often very good looking, some long coats, umbilical hernias. Tom is very common in pedigrees right now.

Fero/Troll/Timmy - IMO a little Fero goes a long way, a little Fero brings nice prey, good grips, nice tracking, too much Fero can have nerve problems.

Lord Gleisdreieck - a little goes a long way like Fero.

Yoschy Dollenwiese - varied reports, in my experience, awesome temperaments and grips, no dog aggression, easy in house, seems to be health issues such as dying of cancer young.

Ahron Granit Rose - big males with nice heads, slow maturing, huge grips, willing dogs, fun to train, but also HD and allergies/other health problems

Arec Bunsenkocher - allergies

Ufo Guys Hof - Lots of prey, ball drive, awesome long bites, healthy, long lived, two sons still competing when quite old include Cayos av Xazziam, Aceofnike vh Bleekhof, soft ears.

Crok/Lewis/Mink - Prey drive, aggression, Crok was known for handler aggression, this line seems to be becoming rarer

Gildo Korbelbach - small, strong, watch for HD

Aly Vordersteinwald - brings good hips, but watch nerve, particularly in females

Olix Karthago - aggression, solid temperament

Afra Stoppenberger Land - solid temperament, can be stubborn

**** Schwarzen Pegasus - slow maturing, big dogs

Pike Shafbachmuhle - good obedience, some people say back problems come from Pike, but I haven't seen it myself.

Karthago - known for strong females and good health


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## Christopher Jones

Louise Jollyman said:


> Ufo Guys Hof - Lots of prey, ball drive, awesome long bites, healthy, long lived, two sons still competing when quite old include Cayos av Xazziam, Aceofnike vh Bleekhof, soft ears.


 The worst litter of pups I have ever seen came from this dog. Small like foxes, no drive, soft, sensitive, had no redeaming features what so ever. The whole litter was like it.


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## cynthia wiley

wow louise what a great analogy of dogs in your breed. 

christopher, not that i know anything about those lines, but you should also consider the specific litter/s louise, (whom i don't know) was regarding. litters vary from breeding to breeding even with the same parents. dogs/parents change just like people. there are very fertile times when that particular animal was at the height of its career and then lower times when the hormones were not as high. to make a global statement that it's the "worst litter of pups you've ever seen" is not taking this into consideration. on the flip side i think louise was giving accuracies from the litters she specifically knew. you can only speak from what you've have seen first hand, as both of you did. but it would be nice to take all of the information available into account before making a global statement as if that dog only produced soft dogs.

c, c and i


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## Randy Allen

What were the dam side in those breeding you had first hand knowledge of Louise?

I know squat about breeding, but it seems to me that the dams, ie. the mating, is as important as the who the sire was.


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## rick smith

VERY interesting comments regarding horses !
ok, so mother nature cross breeds to promote vitality and health. why can humans do a better job ? why don't humans line breed a few generations to "lock in" greatness ? why don't we refer to them with "he/she throws this or that" ? aren't most canine breeders who love monsters looking for males because females rarely work or compete? why aren't great dams considered with the same popularity as the great studs ? if we haven't found the greatness genes how can we breed for them ? how many of the losers are tracked and what are their percentages ? when they are identified, why are they considered exceptions ? why are dogs some of the most manipulated species of animal on the planet with clearly (intentionally) bred deformities ?...... too many stupid questions ? am i over-simplifying this ? of course, because we still know very little about the genetic traits we want in canines but that doesn't stop us...cause we can 
- does everyone agree with Louise, who only referred to the good/bad traits thrown by the dogs mentioned ? the only physical trait she mentioned was size; cause size matters in these breeds ? anyway, seemed like it came from someone who has studied those pedigrees in depth ... is that how lines should be listed and documented ?


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## rick smith

and yes, i CLEARLY don't get it 
but it is still fascinating conversation


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## Louise Jollyman

Traits I mentioned are based on the 50 or so dogs I have had first hand experience with over the years, if you want me to post the pedigrees of all the dogs I have known I can do that, but it may take a while!

I worry about size in relation to dogs that are too big and seem to physically break down quickly. As far as structure I guess being a WL person I don't really worry as long as the dog is sound enough to work for a good length of time. 

I definitely believe dams are mpre important than sires, hence why I mentioned Karthago females and Afra SL.


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## cynthia wiley

hi rick, i will try to answer some of your questions with my opinion and experience. obviously we all have our differences of opinion and experiences, but that is called life. that's what makes us all different, exciting and debatable.

well, if you look back in history lets say a 100 - 150 years ago in this country, you will see that there were many people that did in fact "marry their own cousins". people didn't have the transportation that we have today and families stayed close together. specific example of where there were several brothers in a family that all helped each other build their individual houses, which funny enough usually all looked exactly the same. it wasn't un-common to see 2nd cousins marrying each other. so yes, in a sense, there was some line breeding going on just a short time ago. funny, i never thought of it in that way, but if the shoe fits.... ;D

in my opinion, if you don't have a well bred female to compliment your "monster dog", "you ain't got nothin'". it goes back to the part about genetical traits and line breeding.

by the way, some people that i've met in this sport really don't care for the "monster dog" or the malinois. they say they can't live with that much energy. for me personally, i'll always have mali's.

in horse racing regarding the consideration of popularity of dam vs stud, a filly/mare even by todays standards, can not run with the guildings/studs in racing most of the time. that would also be true with human athletes per se, otherwise you'd see a bunch of female football players. ;D however, because of the big races mostly being specifically geared toward the males in racing, is probably why the female counter parts are not talked about as much, therefore the popularity isn't there. there were a few great female horses of recent day, to name a few ruffian, zenyatta, rachel alexander, eight belles, and winning colors. all those girls ran with and beat the boys at their own game. unfortunately, some of these horses broke down and were destroyed. sad to say what ego and greed will do to someone.

if you look at the some of the lines in europe, you will see where there are breeders that are very calculating in their choices for a specific developmental aspect for a litter to come. i don't think (except for the puppy millers and i'd like to hang all of them) most people are trying to better their breed. there are some kennels that do better than others, that is obvious at the world championship level competitions. so my belief is that some of the greatness genes have been found and that is why certain studs/bitches are consistently used in breedings. i'm not talking about backyard breeding, if you study a specific breed you will see there are common denominators. 

i don't understand the tracked/percentages/identified question, sorry.

i agree that there are some very manipulated breeds of dogs. it is sad to think that people have such a "wanna be" attitude. they do no homework and yet they continue to breed "hoping" for that winning dog. someone once said to me "you have to make a mistake in order to learn". how true that is, but some of these un-ethical breeders just keep breeding the same dogs and creating a larger problem for the good breeders. 

i really don't think that anyone has a stupid question. i know sometimes, some of the things that i ask, i feel very stupid about. but again, how will you have any reference if you don't ask. i still consider myself a novice in this new world of dog sports. 

you are correct we know very little about genetical traits in animals. hell, we have just started learning about that in humans. i'll bet there are a lot more people working on human genetics rather than dogs or horses though. ;D

actually, i think that one can only be specific about ones own experiences. i think that louise was pretty clear about her own experiences. again, i don't know louise. 

but i think to say that "size matters" is also imo, incorrect. there are a lot of people out there, that do not like the massively sized dog. to many health issues. some breeders have ruined some breeds trying to get to big in size. but for me, i'll take a 70 -75 lb male mali or a 55 - 60 female mali. but those are my choices. you have to decide what works for you.

i think if you are going to pay money for a dog and sometimes quite a bit, you should do your homework on the pedigrees/genetical traits thrown of the lines etc. you want to purchase.

c, c and i


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## rick smith

Cynthia.
thx for responding...we are probably a lot closer in our philosophies than it might seem from what i posted 

i know almost nothing about the science of genetics, but i have always had a problem in agreeing about the degree of line breeding, what i would call inter breeding, as to when it lessens rather than strengthens off spring, no matter what the species
- it just seems to have been proven in nature that inbreeding always results in diminished vitality and health for almost all species
- IF the goal was for simply fur color, eye color, tail shape, size or other physical traits we have identified genetically, i WOULD buy into that theory more, but when it comes to the qualities which i grossly simplified as "greatness", which are the temperament genes, i feel we still don't have a clue and it's basically a crap shoot
- and that is still the case even tho we have taken quantum leaps in the last couple decades deciphering the genetic code

the few health issues that we have been able to identify genetically should of course be the top priority for any breeder first and i don't feel health is given the same priority as "performance", "drives", or all the other temperament traits
- there is also a lot of agreement with many serious breeders to look for that "monster" that is good for breeding but maybe too much to work....which seems to follow a line of thinking that if you inject the super strong genes some will eventually show up again in the offspring ... it happens of course, but i don't think this is a scientific based breed philosophy; i think it's just luck 

of course we all have our ideas of what a monster is  
to me it's a just dog who with extreme focus that will still listen ... hard combination to find and not based on size at all 

and i AGREE with the way Louise describes lines !! ... that is the information that should be documented even tho it seems hard to set up a pedigree system that would do it 

but when i select a dog, i will do my homework and it will involve more than just reading about titles on pedigrees ... then hope i get lucky


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## rick smith

Cynthia
re: "i don't understand the tracked/percentages/identified question, sorry."

what i meant was that pedigrees are more of the success side rather than the not so successful side of breeding
- one can search out all the successful dogs but there doesn't seem to be a total picture available that would put the successes in perspective

i think this might even apply to the long established European lines
as in "xxxxxx" produced 8 world champions and 200 working PSD's ... that is widely publicized in the registries and many would also be able to search out the dogs who were employed in LE
- but did "xxxxxx" also produce 150 dogs too aggressive that were put down, 200 shitters, 300 cases of HD, or 1000 decent working dogs that lived 12yrs plus ??? that seems to be an unknown that may have some relevance in the overall quality of that stud

whether it is wishful thinking or not, it's still part of the picture ... imo of course 
- which would seem to make the public pedigrees more of a snapshot


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## cynthia wiley

hey rick,

yes, i think most serious breeders are looking to strengthen their lines/breed. not only does it provide more consistency, but also dogs that are able to handle the work. however remember, there is also the factors of training knowledge, help available and environment with a little luck to boot. and yes, i agree that a lot of times, not much thought is put into specific simple physical traits of the working dog. but i remember hearing when i first got into this sport that working dogs are usually not the showy looking dogs as in the confirmation world. that they were mostly bred for toughness. however, again, that is a matter of opinion of exactly what tough is. i do however believe that it is possible, but does not occur or result in, on a regular basis, to breed for temperament. but again, that is also based on the hormonal level of the dogs at that particular time in their life of breeding. but i think that there are a lot more people in europe because they have been doing this a lot longer in the working dog world, that are better judges of particular dogs than most people here in the usa. not that there aren't good breeders here in the states or good dogs, but experience is always a plus in any sport, whether it's working dogs, horse racing or ball sports. but sadly, there are unethical breeders all over this planet. a particular breed becomes popular and then everyone wants to get in on it. back to the ego and greed thing again!!!

you are correct, health in the working dog or horse racing for that matter, is not given the same thought. it is hard to swallow sometimes, but if you have a very driven animal that loves his job, but isn't that sound, do you keep him from what he loves so much? well, depends on who is figuring i guess. some would say, great genetical traits/lines lets save him for breeding. they'd lock that poor sucker up and he'd be miserable except for the getting lucky every once in awhile. ;D but then you have those that would let him be who he was bred to be and wants to be and take their chances. of course if the animal is walking on three legs that is entirely different, but you have to use your best judgement. that's the best you can do. i think people, myself included humanize to often with a sports animal. it is hard to show emotion toward something that works so hard for you. but none of us are perfect.

hell if the truth be known, i'm so beat up from my horse days, i have a lot of pain everyday. but the fact of the matter is, i still have the drive to get up and go train my dogs. at night time i'm hurting big time, because of all the past injuries to my body, but guess what, besides the pain, i'm thinking of what i'm going to do with my dogs the next day. i would rather have the life that i want even if it hurts, rather than a life that makes me miserable by sitting in the house and living what most deem a normal life. i've always been a very driven person. but all of us are different and have to choose our own path. i might be sorry one day for doing this to myself, but at least i can say, i've had one hell of a ride, no pun intended.


c, c and i


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## jim stevens

Rick

If you are just talking about a species surviving, yes, the widest genetic variation will allow for mutations, and adaptations that will keep it alive in nature. That isn't however what the aim is in selective breeding. Otherwise we'd outcross a GSD and a lab and get a great protection dog that we could do dog sports, and retreive mallards in the winter. I don't think that's how it would work out, somehow. 

Again, horse breeding is my expertise, but the principles are the same, lots of inbreeding. Inbreeding will bring about a greater chance of having the properties of the stud you're using. The greatest all-time producer of cutting horses now is a stud called High Brow Cat. He is a son of High Brow Hickory and out of a mare by Smart Little Lena, the former all time producer. Probably half of the big winners by HBC are out of Smart Little Lena mares, in other words, he was bred back to his half sisters over and over with tremendous success, producing about 40 million dollars of winners. Smart Little Lena is so prominent that a couple of years ago, every finalist in the futurity (about 20 out of 650 entries) were either by SLL, or out of one of his sons or daughters. The point I'm trying to make is that if the animal is a good breeder already, he will be made better by inbreeding to that animal as a rule. The down side is the one we all know of, the appearance of recessive traits (esp health issues) that we didn't know were there until they were bred 'close'. At least in this example I used, inbreeding to SLL, no health issues, it's all win, which is the way you like to see it work. I also know of two great horses that were accidental breedings of a mare to her own sire. Both were gelded for obvious reasons but were phenomenal show horses. 

Breeders of dogs don't seem to do it much differently.


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## jim stevens

By the way malinois pedigree experts. Here is the line breeding on my bitch. The 5,5,4 - 3,4....................................... in Elgos du Chemin des Plaines
4 - 4............................................. in Mirza LOSH 615597
5 - 4,5........................................... in Barbie LOF 12412/2084
5 - 4,5........................................... in Atos LOF 10995/1876
5 - 5............................................. in Astor van de Lobo Hoeve NHSB 1422743
5 - 5............................................. in Britta NHSB 1083239father is a son of Boyder Van Joefarm
Her mother was by Pedro and her dam was by Amore Van Joefarm (son of Roe van Joefarm) and out of another daughter of Elgos, so quite a bit of inbreeding to him. Any knowlege of these dogs? I am pretty ignorant of malinois pedigrees, but the Elgos du Chemn des Plaines seems to show up in a lot of sport malinois.

She is making a nice dog, so far, easy to train, bites full and hard, pretty reluctant to out, but getting a lot better. She usually will out on the second command, often just wants to chew a bit after the first command. That's a lot better than taking 2-3 minutes like she was a week ago! A friend of mine who has some experience says he'd rather have a reluctant out than a reluctant bite any day, but he's kind of a hard core old military dog trainer, long retired.


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## Randy Allen

In my short experience in the sports venue, I'd rather see a reluctant out than a chewy unsure call off.


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## cynthia wiley

oh gosh rick, i didn't even see your second post, sorry about that. damn, i just saw it. my mistake. i've been very busy today. yes, i would have to agree that some breeders, breed the crap out of a dog or a line just because of say one or two world champions. that kinda stuff exists no matter what kind of animal sport you are in, which is very, very, sad. remember the ego and money aspect of this business is very cruel. that is why i choose dogs that are of a smaller group with recent world champions in the the bloodlines. not that i'm going to get a world champion dog from that breeding, but the re-breeding of cross or line, is much more powerful than one that comes from a thousand dogs with your scenario above. people are greedy and that is a fact of life. i try to stay away from that. but sometimes, you get caught up in it unknowingly. i am lucky to have the dogs i do, with the breedings they have. there are so many out there, that are just sold a dog because someone is a fast talker and has big talk, just like in the horse business. you really have to do your homework. people get taken all the time. in fact, it just recently happened to me with a trainer. but that is a whole other story...


c, c and i


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## Daryl Ehret

Louise, would you be kind enough to list some of the dog's you know of through Yoschy that died of cancer?

Jim, so is this an example of slapping two big name producers together, or is this a combination that has high potential? High Brow Cat X Peptoboonsmal



> WHAT DO you get when you combine the two hottest Pedigrees in the Nation (High Brow Cat and Peptoboonsmal)? SEAFIELD GHOST OF A CAT!!! Pedigree Conformation Versatility Athleticism Now standing for the introductory fee of $375 to a limited number outside mares before he enters training. LFG; Live Coverage. 406-967-2738


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## jim stevens

To be honest, I'm sure there have been some that worked, but the HBCxPepto isn't as popular as some others. The cross with Smart Little Lena is the best, a lot of other Doc O'Lena bred mares have crossed well too (like Miss Echo Wood -Doc O'Lena granddaughter) and the Shorty Lena daughter Oh Cay Shorty (another Doc O'Lena granddaughter) My first question on this horse is why he's just entering training, looks like a 5-6 year old horse! They should have started training at 20 months or so, and very few people spend the $$$$ to breed to him without sending them to a trainer, so maybe he's already been washed out once. Normally this wouldn't be a sign of a good minded horse, but one that is possibly a great athlete with a poor attitude. We all know how those work out, horse or dog, they'll make you crazy. I'm not knocking a horse I don't know, but at this age starting training, something went wrong, or there were soundness issues, which isn't good either. These are just things I would want to know about. Horses of course can have a career ending injury that isn't soundness related, a physical injury, and never be shown, which doesn't reflect on the horse or the breeding.

My memory is failing me, but it does seem like one of the horses that did well at the past Futurity was a HBCxPepto. Had to look it up, Shannon Hall took third on one with this cross.


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## Louise Jollyman

Hey Daryl,

Our Elessar's mother (Yoschy daughter) died of hemangiosarcoma at 5 years old - http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=370923

Elessar himself died at 4 years old, but we didn't have an autopsy so don't know exactly what caused his death.


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## Daryl Ehret

Are there any or many others you know of?

Thanks Jim, for the great reply.


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## jim stevens

Daryl

If you're looking to breed a mare to some cutting blood, send me a PM, let me know what your mare is and the $$ you want to spend and I should be able to help.


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## Louise Jollyman

Not that I know for certain, have heard about a couple of others, have also heard about a couple of other Cherokee sons dying young, but don't want to post things I have heard second hand....


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## Daryl Ehret

No, I haven't bred anything since to a son of Rooster a few years back, with a balance of older racing blood on the damside. The result was a really nice philly, but had to be put down after the neighbor's ACD chased all our horses in a pileup into the fence. Had half a dozen horses then, but when the ex and I seperated, she took the remaining two.

I'm still mildly interested in horses, but it's going to be a while for me yet. Need to find a bigger spread, and cut down on dogs. Then, I'll probably just get a nice horse for mountain trails and mounted archery, nothing serious. The galfriend would like something for CMSA sport, and join my parents.

Louise, I understand your relectance, just wondering how you arrived to the conclusion Yoschy was associated with that risk. As you may or may not know, I've selected for a lot of Yoschy in my breeding, with my last couple litters being a 4,4,5-5,6 linebreeding on him.


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## jim stevens

Rooster was a pretty good one, although he produced more reiners and working cow horses than cutters. Of course he was a full brother to Gray's Starlight who was a great sire. Bet that Little Peppy bred horse with running blood on the bottom side had plenty of go! LOL Normally they had a lot of endurance, often a little cold backed too. Good working type horses that could do it all at the highest levels.


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## Louise Jollyman

Hey Daryl,

I liked the Yoschy son and daughter I knew and a couple of grandkids so much, I wouldn't let it affect my choice of dogs, plus I'm guessing that the dogs closer to Yoschy in your pedigrees haven't had problems. Cancer is one of those weird things that doesn't seem to have a clear genetic link anyway. Like I said, I certainly wouldn't let my knowledge put me off Yoschy in a ped. 

Now Tom is a different kettle of fish for me, and good luck finding a pedigree without him!!!


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## Daryl Ehret

I so desperately wanted a pup from a 2-3 linebreeding on Tom about two years ago. Are we already using the term "Tom free" these days? I have a Tom great grandaughter (through Ellute), but that's all.

Jim, I have a special fondness for buckskin duns, but seems I could never find a combination free of Poco Bueno. I can't remember exactly, but do you get buckskin duns when crossing a dun factored horse with a palomino?


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## jim stevens

Nope. You can get a buckskin easier by palominos and bay. You have a gene for dilution of the sorrel color to buckskin /palomino color with the black points. Dun requires a dun/grulla factor. Of course technically the only difference is a dorsal stripe. My mare's second dam was buckskin and out of a dun mare and a red dun stud. Sbe never had a dun or buckskin foal but several palominos.


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## Joel T. Alvarez

Man, I wish I would have caught this discussion sooner.

Has anyone heard of Federico Tesio? 
I wonder how his theories would translate to dogs.
Another thing that I haven't seen mentioned is hybrid vigor. Is there any of that in the working dog breeds?
Thanx,
Joel


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## Sally Crunkleton

Louise Jollyman said:


> OK Sally, to try to answer your question about particular dogs, here are a few of my experiences over the last 10 years. Obviously different people will have different experiences from the same lines and also will like different things......
> 
> Ugo Burenswald - handler aggression, poor tracking, weak females.
> 
> Tom Leefdaalhof - excellent natural tracking, good grips and barking, many current competition dogs from Ellute Mohnwiese and Vito Waldwinkel, both Tom sons. Some do not handle stress well, particularly females. Often very good looking, some long coats, umbilical hernias. Tom is very common in pedigrees right now.
> 
> Fero/Troll/Timmy - IMO a little Fero goes a long way, a little Fero brings nice prey, good grips, nice tracking, too much Fero can have nerve problems.
> 
> Lord Gleisdreieck - a little goes a long way like Fero.
> 
> Yoschy Dollenwiese - varied reports, in my experience, awesome temperaments and grips, no dog aggression, easy in house, seems to be health issues such as dying of cancer young.
> 
> Ahron Granit Rose - big males with nice heads, slow maturing, huge grips, willing dogs, fun to train, but also HD and allergies/other health problems
> 
> Arec Bunsenkocher - allergies
> 
> Ufo Guys Hof - Lots of prey, ball drive, awesome long bites, healthy, long lived, two sons still competing when quite old include Cayos av Xazziam, Aceofnike vh Bleekhof, soft ears.
> 
> Crok/Lewis/Mink - Prey drive, aggression, Crok was known for handler aggression, this line seems to be becoming rarer
> 
> Gildo Korbelbach - small, strong, watch for HD
> 
> Aly Vordersteinwald - brings good hips, but watch nerve, particularly in females
> 
> Olix Karthago - aggression, solid temperament
> 
> Afra Stoppenberger Land - solid temperament, can be stubborn
> 
> **** Schwarzen Pegasus - slow maturing, big dogs
> 
> Pike Shafbachmuhle - good obedience, some people say back problems come from Pike, but I haven't seen it myself.
> 
> Karthago - known for strong females and good health


Thank you! I have been doing some research, but this is the whole point for me....just learning about the different names and associations.

I also enjoyed the horse talk!


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## Don Turnipseed

Joel T. Alvarez said:


> Man, I wish I would have caught this discussion sooner.
> 
> Has anyone heard of Federico Tesio?
> I wonder how his theories would translate to dogs.
> Another thing that I haven't seen mentioned is hybrid vigor. Is there any of that in the working dog breeds?
> Thanx,
> Joel


Joel, yes, there is vigor involved when outcrossing or outbreeding. Many will nit pick the terminology in regards to "hybrid" vigor, but, there is definitely vigor when adding new blood to a tightly bred line.


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## Joel T. Alvarez

Don,
Yeah, I was corrected on the terminology. A hybrid is of different species. Maybe we can just call it outcross vigor?
Kind of like Thouroughbred blood mixed with Quarter Horse blood. Like some of the Beduino crosses.
I also read that Dash for Cash was related to Secretariat, far off of course. Studies were done and some interesting conformation attributes were very similiar.
Joel


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## Don Turnipseed

The trick to all this is when you have a very tightly linebred line that has predictable traits, you need to breed to an equally tight line that also has predictability. Without that you are kind of chasing your tail. This holds true whether you are outcrossing within a specific breed, or outbreeding where two separate breeds will be involved. Outcrossing for new blood every generation can also be likened to chasing your tail....unless your going to live a hundred or so years.


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## Joby Becker

louise..

whats up with Tom??


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## rick smith

re: "The trick to all this is when you have a very tightly linebred line that has predictable traits, you need to breed to an equally tight line that also has predictability." ....or you're chasing your tail, etc 

--- good point, as long as you (the breeder) and the "other line" breeder are totally open with each other and not competitive ... does that happen frequently between breeders or does that happen more "in a perfect world" ?


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## Joby Becker

rick smith said:


> re: "The trick to all this is when you have a very tightly linebred line that has predictable traits, you need to breed to an equally tight line that also has predictability." ....or you're chasing your tail, etc
> 
> --- good point, as long as you (the breeder) and the "other line" breeder are totally open with each other and not competitive ... does that happen frequently between breeders or does that happen more "in a perfect world" ?


even if that is the case. it depends on the traits...and how heritable they are.


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## Don Turnipseed

:roll: :roll: LOL Go and explain your reasoning Joby. Is it diversity, heterozygosity, homozygosity. Please explain what you might be looking for. You have probably had to make this decision a hundred times.


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## rick smith

hope those smileys weren't for me Don ... i really do wanna know, and i Do know you're a breeder !
...i know nothing about breeder to breeder working relationships ..... seemed like a legit Q


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## Don Turnipseed

rick smith said:


> re: "The trick to all this is when you have a very tightly linebred line that has predictable traits, you need to breed to an equally tight line that also has predictability." ....or you're chasing your tail, etc
> 
> --- good point, as long as you (the breeder) and the "other line" breeder are totally open with each other and not competitive ... does that happen frequently between breeders or does that happen more "in a perfect world" ?


Breeders that have an actual line of dogs has been around long enough, and put enough dogs out in the world, that it is hard to "not know" what he is producing. One of the main reasons for wanting tightly bred lines is, if they have produced many generations, they are pretty clean. The last thing anyone with an actual long standing line wants is to pick up bad recessives that no one knows is there because they have been bred loosely to keep the recessives from showing.

I just saw your first post Rick. No, they smileys were not for you, they were for Joby. He can't even tell when a dog is pregnant but he knows all about the ins and outs of tight linebreeding.


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## Joby Becker

Don Turnipseed said:


> :roll: :roll: LOL Go and explain your reasoning Joby. Is it diversity, heterozygosity, homozygosity. Please explain what you might be looking for. You have probably had to make this decision a hundred times.


Don certain traits are not as heritable as others...that is a genetic fact..

if the dog is homozygous that is great, for simple traits...but if the trait is polygenic, it might mean squat... until the genome is fully cracked it is all a guessing game.. temperament traits are usually not super heritable. such as othersimpler traits..

not a hundred times...about 20 or so..

even bred a dog that killed a person Don, went for the neck, best they could tell it was ONE bite that killed the person..it was a tragedy of ownership faults, but the dog was bred right.


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## Don Turnipseed

LOL, Interesting Joby. Specially the part about temperament traits.


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## Joby Becker

Don Turnipseed said:


> LOL, Interesting Joby. Specially the part about temperament traits.


so you dont see polygenic traits being more difficult to predict than simple ones? 

I would say until the genome is 100% cracked, and all polygenic traits are mapped... it will always depend on skill and LUCK....unless someone is clairvoyant.


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## James Downey

Don Turnipseed said:


> The trick to all this is when you have a very tightly linebred line that has predictable traits, you need to breed to an equally tight line that also has predictability. Without that you are kind of chasing your tail. This holds true whether you are outcrossing within a specific breed, or outbreeding where two separate breeds will be involved. Outcrossing for new blood every generation can also be likened to chasing your tail....unless your going to live a hundred or so years.


And you would need pedigrees for this.

I mean unless you just wanna chase your tail by just pairing good dog with good dog.


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## Don Turnipseed

James Downey said:


> And you would need pedigrees for this.
> 
> I mean unless you just wanna chase your tail by just pairing good dog with good dog.


You might James, I never looked at a pedigree on Griff. Stew sent it to me after I got the dog. I know how DDR dogs are bred....and I know the caliber of dog that these guys import. I can't even tell you the dams name without getting the pedigree out.


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## Don Turnipseed

Just loooked it up. The sire is Danny von Thekla. The dam is Giulia von der Chistinenheide. They are both on the EU web.


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## Gillian Schuler

Don Turnipseed said:


> Old breeding standard. " Gentics determines what a dog CAN be, environment determines what a dog WILL be" Both are limiting in their own way. One by heritage, the other by you as the dogs owner. Still can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear regardless of how good a trainer one is. But, you can get a better looking sows ear.


I agree 100%


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## Louise Jollyman

Joby Becker said:


> louise..
> 
> whats up with Tom??


Can't seem to escape him right now, some make very nice sporty dogs, most are very handler soft, just not my style I guess. I want to see more dominance, more aggression and better physical strength and endurance. But they are very good looking, often dark sable which appears to be in vogue, track very well, and look good as pups - they appear on video as drivey and fun to train - so I guess thats why they are so popular.

Louise


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## Rick Mattox

Louise Jollyman said:


> Can't seem to escape him right now, some make very nice sporty dogs, most are very handler soft, just not my style I guess. I want to see more dominance, more aggression and better physical strength and endurance. But they are very good looking, often dark sable which appears to be in vogue, track very well, and look good as pups - they appear on video as drivey and fun to train - so I guess thats why they are so popular.
> 
> Louise


I don't agree with the statement that " MOST are very handler soft." I'm sure that there are many out there that are handler soft. Perhaps because there are many dogs down from Tom out there now. There are just as many that aren't. It's been said that there are 2 types of Tom. The "SPORTY" Tom and the "AGGRESSIVE" Tom that shows in the offspring. Perhaps it's how they are bred. But then again look at Elute and his full brother Eros. Elute was known to be much more aggressive and threw it in his offspring more than his brother. Tom's son Enno vom Fuchsstein was known to be a top Schutzhund dog but have high aggression and passed it to his sons. This I can attest to personally having one of his sons myself. Big aggression and definitely not handler soft in any way. Also Enno's son Elijah vom Germaelhaus by all counts is much like my dog. Sean O'kane's dog Max ze Stribrneho Kamene is a top schutzhund dog and is known for aggression. Another Tom son, Basko vom Rohnsaler Bach, in Lance Collin's club is known for his aggression. None of these dogs are handler soft. So as with everything it depends on what the big named stud is bred to and what traits are strengthened in the breeding that determine how the offspring turn out.

Also I found it funny that you mention how many are Drk. Sable. I was just looking at another thread on another forum talking about Tom's offspring and someone said how most are light in color. I guess this just emphasizes that fact that with so many dogs down from him you are going to find just about every incarnation of a dog, from good to bad, in something with that has him in the ped. LOL.


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## susan tuck

Rick Mattox said:


> I don't agree with the statement that " MOST are very handler soft." I'm sure that there are many out there that are handler soft. Perhaps because there are many dogs down from Tom out there now. There are just as many that aren't. It's been said that there are 2 types of Tom. The "SPORTY" Tom and the "AGGRESSIVE" Tom that shows in the offspring. Perhaps it's how they are bred. But then again look at Elute and his full brother Eros. Elute was known to be much more aggressive and threw it in his offspring more than his brother. Tom's son Enno vom Fuchsstein was known to be a top Schutzhund dog but have high aggression and passed it to his sons. This I can attest to personally having one of his sons myself. Big aggression and definitely not handler soft in any way. Also Enno's son Elijah vom Germaelhaus by all counts is much like my dog. Sean O'kane's dog Max ze Stribrneho Kamene is a top schutzhund dog and is known for aggression. Another Tom son, Basko vom Rohnsaler Bach, in Lance Collin's club is known for his aggression. None of these dogs are handler soft. So as with everything it depends on what the big named stud is bred to and what traits are strengthened in the breeding that determine how the offspring turn out.
> 
> Also I found it funny that you mention how many are Drk. Sable. I was just looking at another thread on another forum talking about Tom's offspring and someone said how most are light in color. I guess this just emphasizes that fact that with so many dogs down from him you are going to find just about every incarnation of a dog, from good to bad, in something with that has him in the ped. LOL.


Not been my experience either. I've got 2 now that are Tom - Elute - Ulrich and the LAST word I would use to describe them is soft. I couldn't be happier with them and I do NOT like soft dogs.


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## Peter Cavallaro

I'm a Stuka fan, what y'all think of him, certainly proved himself more than most bigger names.


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## Joby Becker

Peter Cavallaro said:


> I'm a Stuka fan, what y'all think of him, *certainly proved himself more than most bigger names.*


how so?


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## Peter Cavallaro

Ok I like him cos I like him, no other reason I can defend. Post should have said, I think hes an awesome dog, whats yr opinion/s.


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## Joby Becker

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Ok I like him cos I like him, no other reason I can defend. Post should have said, I think hes an awesome dog, whats yr opinion/s.


have no clue, I imagine he is a great dog, otherwise I doubt Nate would be using him...I have heard nothing but good things about him...not looking for any defense Pete... just was wondering about how *he certainly proved himself more than most bigger names*. Thought you had some info on that part.


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## Peter Cavallaro

Joby I re-worded my post upon reflection because it didn't ask what I was trying to find out with the extra qualifier you bolded.

But to answer, without looking at the dog even just look at his well documented accomplishments, u got the search skills. Looking at the dog himself he seems like one impressive animal (I only seen vids) has the ped, the health, the intensity, the temp, and speed to cover a range of venues.

Some dogs are just famous cos they famous and I see little difference in some largely unknown dogs.

Just wanting an objective opinion not an epic.


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## Louise Jollyman

Rick, lets just say your definition of real strength and aggression is not the same as mine. There are very few dogs who have it and even fewer that produce it.

Now Stuka is different, obviously a very strong dog himself and offspring I have seen so far do have good aggression.


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## Peter Cavallaro

Hey L, consider me yr pal.


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## Tracey Hughes

Also, when talking about aggression you need to have trainers who can properly bring it out and want to. Lots of the training I have seen in IPO in the past few years is not at all promoting real aggression, its a game more then anything else. 

Can’t blame the dogs for that.


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## Joby Becker

Tracey Hughes said:


> Also, when talking about aggression you need to have trainers who can properly bring it out and want to. Lots of the training I have seen in IPO in the past few years is not at all promoting real aggression, its a game more then anything else.
> 
> Can’t blame the dogs for that.


not only the trainers, but the handlers as well, some are just not interested...


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## Daryl Ehret

And can't blame the sporting venue for lightening up when the dogs don't have it.

Between the dogs who do the sport, the sport the dog is trained for, the training by the handler, the handler's demand for certain dogs, the dogs produced by the breeder, the breeders producing the dog for sport... SOMEWHERE this circle trap all ties together so that NO ONE can claim full responsibility for lessening the standards.


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## Peter Cavallaro

....just blame it on the boogie ........


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## Tracey Hughes

Joby, you are right there are many handlers who have no interest in tapping into real power or aggression. 

Nothing I find more sad then a dog that shows real nice potential as a young dog, only to watch the training “tame” that down. IMO there is no place for a ball in protection work](*,)


Daryl..As far as the sport lightening up, that is a personal choice by the trainers as well as to whether we water down our training or not. Just because there are rule changes certainly doesn’t mean we have to change what we like in a dog. That is what I enjoy about IPO, I am not judged on my training, so I can continue to work the sort of dogs I always have.

There are still plenty of breeders that are producing nice, strong dogs, especially in the GSD breed. But training them in prey drive only is certainly not going to show them off at their best. 

The “best” (toughest, hardest, most serious) dog in the world can’t show that off fully without the training to bring it out.


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## Louise Jollyman

Tracey Hughes said:


> IMO there is no place for a ball in protection work](*,)


Now you're talking my language  Me too! 

However I did see a very nice dog today doing protection with the ball in some of the blinds and the way he slammed that ball into the blinds - heehee, he still has aggression, a good strong dog is a good strong dog!!


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## Don Turnipseed

> IMO there is no place for a ball in protection work


Am I reading that right????


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## Christopher Smith

Don Turnipseed said:


> Am I reading that right????


 There is a big difference between being able to read the words and comprehending their meaning. 



Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk


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## Tiago Fontes

christopher smith said:


> there is a big difference between being able to read the words and comprehending their meaning.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my mb860 using tapatalk


 
lmao!!!


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## Rick Mattox

Louise Jollyman said:


> Rick, lets just say your definition of real strength and aggression is not the same as mine. There are very few dogs who have it and even fewer that produce it.
> 
> Now Stuka is different, obviously a very strong dog himself and offspring I have seen so far do have good aggression.



Louise, do you think your definition of real strength and aggression is the same as Mike Diehl's? If so then ours is very much the same. Mike has worked my dog and said he'd be fine going on the street with a dog like him. How about Lance Collins' definition of Strength and Aggression? (everyone knows his thoughts) Ask him aboout Tom's son Basko's strength and aggression. I've seen Stuka many times. Yes he's a strong dog. I'd rate any of the ones I mentioned in the earlier post as having the same strength.

I'm no diehard "has to be Tom or nothing" guy, but just because you haven't hand any personal experience with it doesn't mean it's not out there.


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## Louise Jollyman

I just can't put them in the same bracket as Stuka or Irmus. But then there are only maybe a handful of dogs I have ever seen personally that fit in that category, I would include Eric Sportpark, Angsbacken Rosso, Wobo Wannaer Hohen, Hektor Talka Marda, Arek Daelenberghutte, Arkan Hildewaerde, Kimon Conneforde, Olex Valsory, maybe a couple of others I can't think of right now, but these are all dogs I have seen on the field and close up, not just videos etc.

Now I have seen a nice Vito daughter this weekend - Galina Burgdorfer Holz, nice nice girl, as is Mark's Vito daughter Faja - interestingly enough maybe I like Vito's daughters better than his sons.


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## Gillian Schuler

Tracey Hughes said:


> Joby, you are right there are many handlers who have no interest in tapping into real power or aggression.
> 
> Nothing I find more sad then a dog that shows real nice potential as a young dog, only to watch the training “tame” that down. IMO there is no place for a ball in protection work](*,)
> QUOTE]
> 
> I agree, luckily I've never seen it done over here or in our training group. I cannot imagine being able to "tame" such dogs down?


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## Rick Mattox

Funny how you mention Vito offspring. As far as the Tom stuff I've seen the stuff from Vito has been the least powerful. Not that they aren't out there. Just ones I've seen.


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