# What distinguishes a good sports dog from good breeding material?



## Pia Porko

I would be interested in hearing your opinions of what distinguishes a good sports dog from good breeding material. I understand a good sports dog doesn't always make good breeding material and vice versa, but what are qualities to look for?
Let's say you have a good sports dog that has proven him/herself (SchH/IPO/VPG in particular), what are the qualities in that dog that make you consider it as good breeding material as well?
And the scenario other way around; you have a not so good sports dog but you think he/she might have something to offer in further breeding, what factors influence this decision?


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## Jerry Cudahy

A score record and titles attained are barometers of ability. The only breeding barometer is in reproduction of the next generation.

There are more top sport dogs that cannot reproduce themselves or better. As good breeding dogs are in a minority.

Another factor is that even if you have a top breeder. If the other side of the genetic combo is lacking depth of quality.

It is a bad breeding but they may have been great sport dogs who were trained by competent handlers.

My answer to your question. The good breeding dog is shown in the Get. Not scores.

Seek out the Get first not the titles.


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## Bob Scott

I'm not and never will be a breeder but I would say the same as Jerry. 
You just don't know till the dog is bred. 
I would add that, IMHO, the character of the dog is more important then scores. That would be what I would look at first if I were breeding. You can't always see that on the sport field. If that didn't fit what "I" wanted I would bother looking at pedigrees.


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## Jerry Lyda

I'm with you Jerry. People breed because of an educated guess. On paper it looks good. It does work both ways. You can can a great dog from parents that aren't good. Go figure.


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## Mike Lauer

UUummm Health?
you can have 50 sch3 and not have good genetics. Maybe pass on bad hips, elbows, ect..

plus I have seen some real nervebags do quite well in sport with the right handler


I think the question is worded incorrectly
It should be what else is a MUST on top of being good at whatever "work" before a dog would be considered breed quality.
Too many people think if they get a sch1 they have a breed quality dog

they overlook the flaws in their 2 dogs and say things like, If I can get his threshold with her drive...
when you're ignoring the 20 bad qualities each one has hoping you'll get lucky

I admit to limited exposure in the dog world and still classify myself a newbie but I have only met 2 dogs personally in my time I would consider breed worthy.


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## Guest

Mike Lauer said:


> UUummm Health?
> you can have 50 sch3 and not have good genetics. Maybe pass on bad hips, elbows, ect..
> 
> plus I have seen some real nervebags do quite well in sport with the right handler
> 
> 
> I think the question is worded incorrectly
> It should be what else is a MUST on top of being good at whatever "work" before a dog would be considered breed quality.
> Too many people think if they get a sch1 they have a breed quality dog
> 
> they overlook the flaws in their 2 dogs and say things like, If I can get his threshold with her drive...
> when you're ignoring the 20 bad qualities each one has hoping you'll get lucky
> 
> *I admit to limited exposure in the dog world and still classify myself a newbie but I have only met 2 dogs personally in my time I would consider breed worthy.*




_and what two would they be out of curiosity?_


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## Brian Anderson

Genetics and Genetics


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## Timothy Saunders

not a dog breeder but I talk to them alot . the one thing that I get from every breeder is that the dog has to have some extreme. depending on the breeder the extreme is different.


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## Mo Earle

_"opinions of what distinguishes a good sports dog from good breeding material."

_I think it depends on what direction you are coming from and where you are headed with that particular dog....everyone wants a healthy, sound dog-that comes from great genetics- but great genetics and having an awesome dog in one persons opinion, may not be the awesome "sports dog" you are looking for....
a lot of factors beside health come into play also, training, enviorment,socialization.....etc.
some very great protection, police working dogs for example-may have great genetics be very good breeding material, but may not do well in sports-....on the other hand some awesome "sport" dogs, with very good genetics from very good breeding material, may not be cut out for a police working dog or true protection dog work...can you get the dog that can do it all....sure-but how often?, and if you do... that is they type of breeder you want to stick with...as their product is probably proven, and not every great dog...throw a great puppy.... but......I think after you get passed the genetics, the physical and the temperments of the line you are looking at, you also have to know what you are planning for your dog- and does that result from the breeding fit you ?-


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## Harry Keely

So alot of you think if a dog holds a bullshit title its more breed worthy then a excellent dog with good genetics and solid workability](*,):roll:? Maybe this is the reason for all the crap thats being advertised all over the internet and its becoming harder and harder to find a truely nice pup here in the USA!!!!!:twisted:

Alot of you need to become more open minded and have alot to learn if you think a title is what declares a dog breed worthy, sorry for being blunt and honest but the truth hurts.

I been contemplating another and been looking in a few different heavily advertised dog sales websites and have to say theres nothing worth a crap of even calling to inquire about, I have made one phone call and was just to late and took to long making my decision.


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## Anita Griffing

Harry Keely said:


> So alot of you think if a dog holds a bullshit title its more breed worthy then a excellent dog with good genetics and solid workability](*,):roll:? Maybe this is the reason for all the crap thats being advertised all over the internet and its becoming harder and harder to find a truely nice pup here in the USA!!!!!:twisted:
> 
> Alot of you need to become more open minded and have alot to learn if you think a title is what declares a dog breed worthy, sorry for being blunt and honest but the truth hurts.
> 
> I been contemplating another and been looking in a few different heavily advertised dog sales websites and have to say theres nothing worth a crap of even calling to inquire about, I have made one phone call and was just to late and took to long making my decision.


If we didn't have titles then we would be relying on what people think of their own dogs.
Most people think their dogs are breedable and they know all about temperament.
I have seen people in the Schutzhund sport think they know everything within a year.
When was the last time you heard someone say "I breed crap but I have to make
a payment on my house." or "I breed crap I don't know much, but please buy my dogs."

For every 1 person that knows what they are doing you have 100 that have no clue.
If you think you really 'know' then at least pick from dogs that are titled. Then you honor
the people trying to do the right thing, but you can still have the autonomy of picking
what you like. ](*,)
Anita


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## Mike Scheiber

Anita Griffing said:


> If we didn't have titles then we would be relying on what people think of their own dogs.
> Most people think their dogs are breedable and they know all about temperament.
> I have seen people in the Schutzhund sport think they know everything within a year.
> When was the last time you heard someone say "I breed crap but I have to make
> a payment on my house." or "I breed crap I don't know much, but please buy my dogs."
> 
> For every 1 person that knows what they are doing you have 100 that have no clue.
> If you think you really 'know' then at least pick from dogs that are titled. Then you honor
> the people trying to do the right thing, but you can still have the autonomy of picking
> what you like. ](*,)
> Anita


To add to what you say how is the public going to look at all these potential breeding candidates and compare. 
No venue other than willie the dog man's back yard in a swamp down in Florida.
I go to a venue ware I can see 100 dogs work ware all the genetic history is at my finger tips and watching the dogs work is 100ft away.
People that bitch about titles generally dont have them they may have a great dog but no one will never see it so it. Just sits in the back yard wasting wile the handler has someone come over ans tease it and they all beat there chests shoot spunk into the air


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## Jerry Cudahy

Anita Griffing said:


> If we didn't have titles then we would be relying on what people think of their own dogs.
> Most people think their dogs are breedable and they know all about temperament.
> I have seen people in the Schutzhund sport think they know everything within a year.
> When was the last time you heard someone say "I breed crap but I have to make
> a payment on my house." or "I breed crap I don't know much, but please buy my dogs."
> 
> For every 1 person that knows what they are doing you have 100 that have no clue.
> If you think you really 'know' then at least pick from dogs that are titled. Then you honor
> the people trying to do the right thing, but you can still have the autonomy of picking
> what you like. ](*,)
> Anita


This is a very true and sad story that typifies what can go wrong with a Tiltle.

Several Judges got together for a social afternoon at a local bar.

They partied big time all afternoon.

As drunk as skunks the party continued into the early evening. They decided to continue but took it to one of the Judges own Clubs field which was in fact closed to regular members due to the late hour.

They unlocked the gates, turned on the field and club house lights.

More booze flowed as all these judges had also brought their own personal dogs to the field.

They proceeded to have a trial amongst themselves.

Every dog was awarded perfect scores and entered into each respective scorebook.


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## Anita Griffing

Jerry Cudahy said:


> This is a very true and sad story that typifies what can go wrong with a Tiltle.
> 
> Several Judges got together for a social afternoon at a local bar.
> 
> They partied big time all afternoon.
> 
> As drunk as skunks the party continued into the early evening. They decided to continue but took it to one of the Judges own Clubs field which was in fact closed to regular members due to the late hour.
> 
> They unlocked the gates, turned on the field and club house lights.
> 
> More booze flowed as all these judges had also brought their own personal dogs to the field.
> 
> They proceeded to have a trial amongst themselves.
> 
> Every dog was awarded perfect scores and entered into each respective scorebook.


 
This would be terribly wrong, but I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water, because
of a few bad judges. The scorebook is just a piece of the puzzle, but it is a piece. I could change
this story to "A bunch of WDF members got together one night drunk as a skunk and decided to bad
mouth great dogs, great competitors, great judges all over the internet." Should we get rid of the
WDF?
Anita


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## Jerry Cudahy

Anita Griffing said:


> This would be terribly wrong, but I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water, because
> of a few bad judges. The scorebook is just a piece of the puzzle, but it is a piece. I could change
> this story to "A bunch of WDF members got together one night drunk as a skunk and decided to bad
> mouth great dogs, great competitors, great judges all over the internet." Should we get rid of the
> WDF?
> Anita


Respecfully Anita, you missed my point.

My bad, sorry

A Title can be manufactured ficticious.

The Genetics can not be manipulated with a pen and several bottles of Pear Liquer


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## Christopher Smith

Mike Scheiber said:


> People that bitch about titles generally dont have them they may have a great dog but no one will never see it so it. Just sits in the back yard wasting wile the handler has someone come over ans tease it and they all beat there chests shoot spunk into the air


Too true!!! :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


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## Christopher Smith

Anita Griffing said:


> This would be terribly wrong, but I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water, because
> of a few bad judges. The scorebook is just a piece of the puzzle, but it is a piece. I could change
> this story to "A bunch of WDF members got together one night drunk as a skunk and decided to bad
> mouth great dogs, great competitors, great judges all over the internet." Should we get rid of the
> WDF?
> Anita


Anita don't take Uncle Jerry's stories seriously. It's not possible to do what he's describing in schutzhund. And I doubt you can do it in French Ring either.


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## Christopher Smith

Harry Keely said:


> I been contemplating another and been looking in a few different heavily advertised dog sales websites and have to say theres nothing worth a crap of even calling to inquire about, I have made one phone call and was just to late and took to long making my decision.


This is not the way to look for a dog. You gotta get off the interwebs. :roll:


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## Danny Craig

First off, big ditto to Kadi's post.

A good sports dog can be a good breeding dog. Or not. Off the top of my head, here's what I look for in a good stud dog. Not necessarily in this order. 

High combativity. Dog loves to engage the decoy (not for the sake of running off with a sleeve or jambiere but for the fight.)
Above quality runs in the stud’s lines.
Excellent health profile on the dog.
Excellent health profiles throughout the dog’s ancestry.
Super work ethic/endurance/athletic ability.
Super work ethic/endurance/athletic ability throughout the dog’s ancestry.
Super food/toy drive. All drives present in abundance.
Super food/toy drive throughout the dog’s ancestry. All drives present in abundance.
Super temperament/nerves.
Super temperament/nerves throughout the dog’s ancestry.
Super gripping behavior.
Super gripping behavior throughout the dog’s ancestry.
Super structure.
Super structure throughout the dog’s ancestry.
Super scores/results.
Super scores/results throughout the dog’s ancestry.
Proven producer.
Son of proven producers.
Evidence that the stud’s genetics work with your female’s genetics.

All of the above are subjective assessments. There are a couple other qualities I can think of but not worth mentioning here. Two smart, knowledgeable dog people will differ on their evaluations. And even if you found a stud that met all of these requirements, the breeding would still be a gamble. Nothing's guaranteed in genetics. 

The more information one has, the better.


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## Daniel Lybbert

@ Harry. What do you consider NOT a bs title? anything? 
I figure the whole point in doing sports with dogs is to find breedable dogs. I got a puppy from 2 FR dogs and she came out of the womb doing a ring routine. I am way more likely to buy a puppy from Champions than from some one who has a what ever dog.
Dogs that win Championships are usually pretty extreme and usually pretty healthy too.
Titles are the way to score what a dog is. This is one more valuable tool to find a good puppy. Takes some of the crap shoot out of it.
Jerry that cant happen in FR you know that.


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## Christopher Smith

Danny Craig said:


> First off, big ditto to Kadi's post.


Where is Kadi's post?


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## Jerry Cudahy

Christopher Smith said:


> Anita don't take Uncle Jerry's stories seriously. It's not possible to do what he's describing in schutzhund. And I doubt you can do it in French Ring either.


Nephew Chris from our Smith side, there is a bridge for sale in the harbor.

Any scorebook can be faked out, including a Sch Book.

Say hello to my sis, your mom.

Since were fammies 

Unca Jer just loves this


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## Steve Groen

Anita Griffing said:


> If we didn't have titles then we would be relying on what people think of their own dogs.
> Most people think their dogs are breedable and they know all about temperament.
> I have seen people in the Schutzhund sport think they know everything within a year.
> When was the last time you heard someone say "I breed crap but I have to make
> a payment on my house." or "I breed crap I don't know much, but please buy my dogs."
> 
> For every 1 person that knows what they are doing you have 100 that have no clue.
> If you think you really 'know' then at least pick from dogs that are titled. Then you honor
> the people trying to do the right thing, but you can still have the autonomy of picking
> what you like. ](*,)
> Anita


Wasn't G'Vitou untitled?


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## Joby Becker

steve groen said:


> wasn't g'vitou untitled?


fr iii 
br i


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## Brian Anderson

Harry Keely said:


> So alot of you think if a dog holds a bullshit title its more breed worthy then a excellent dog with good genetics and solid workability](*,):roll:? Maybe this is the reason for all the crap thats being advertised all over the internet and its becoming harder and harder to find a truely nice pup here in the USA!!!!!:twisted:
> 
> Alot of you need to become more open minded and have alot to learn if you think a title is what declares a dog breed worthy, sorry for being blunt and honest but the truth hurts.
> 
> I been contemplating another and been looking in a few different heavily advertised dog sales websites and have to say theres nothing worth a crap of even calling to inquire about, I have made one phone call and was just to late and took to long making my decision.


Well stated Harry...Im right there with you!!


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## Brian Anderson

Joby Becker said:


> fr iii
> br i



is that dutch pig latin Joby? LMAO


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## Joby Becker

Brian Anderson said:


> is that dutch pig latin Joby? LMAO


I had it in all CAPS...did not post like that...

FR III
BR I


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## Steve Groen

Joby Becker said:


> fr iii
> br i


Ruh-roh. I stand corrected. There sure is a lot of misinformation out there. Working-dog.eu for one, which states he never competed in at least Belgian ring:

http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/562/GVitou-des-Deux-Pottois

Steve


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## Anita Griffing

Steve Groen said:


> Wasn't G'Vitou untitled?


I think you mean that he was a great producer and untitled?

I am sure there are great producers that are untitled, and crap
dogs titled. But, to me, that is a kin to saying "we need to get rid of
prisons because innocent people go there occasionally". 

What we need to do is keep learning through the years and
make the tests and trials better and better. We need to keep
judges educated and knowledgeable...JMO

Anita


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## will fernandez

Nothing against Joby--but if the owner really wrote that he didnt compete in BR I would have to believe that.


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## Joby Becker

Steve Groen said:


> Ruh-roh. I stand corrected. There sure is a lot of misinformation out there. Working-dog.eu for one, which states he never competed in at least Belgian ring:
> 
> http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/562/GVitou-des-Deux-Pottois
> 
> Steve


some one knows the truth, I only know what I see on the website..which very well could be false..

I went to the Dutch site...

http://www.bloedlijnen.nl/


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## Jerry Cudahy

will fernandez said:


> Nothing against Joby--but if the owner really wrote that he didnt compete in BR I would have to believe that.


 Hey Will I have a video of G'Vitou that appears to be a NVBK trial. Jeff is going to go balistic when he reads this. I promised him that vid and I lazed out sending it.


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## will fernandez

Well then I stand corrected


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## Jerry Cudahy

Joby Becker said:


> I had it in all CAPS...did not post like that...
> 
> FR III
> BR I


I am having some odd posting problems this morning. 

Anyway, hope this posts.

The one thing that does look out of context and am not arguing to stir shit.

French Ring requires a FCI ped for a dog to trial.

NVBK is a different registry not associated with the FCI.

Luc (Deux Pottois) sure played the system to the max.

Regarding Deux Pottois. I have several authentic peds from the St Hubert for Deux Pottois. Every one of them has a hand written code in the top right hand corner put there by Luc.

God love him for keeping the secrets.


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## Steve Groen

will fernandez said:


> Nothing against Joby--but if the owner really wrote that he didnt compete in BR I would have to believe that.


It does seem a bit strange that a St. Hubert dog would be competing in French ring in the first place. Luc Vansteenbrugge titled Bibber in Belgian ring 1. Why would he compete with Varack in French ring?


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## Steve Groen

Anita Griffing said:


> I think you mean that he was a great producer and untitled?
> 
> I am sure there are great producers that are untitled, and crap
> dogs titled. But, to me, that is a kin to saying "we need to get rid of
> prisons because innocent people go there occasionally".
> 
> What we need to do is keep learning through the years and
> make the tests and trials better and better. We need to keep
> judges educated and knowledgeable...JMO
> 
> Anita


If it is true that Luc Vansteenbrugge didn't title G'Vitou, then one of the most prolific breeders of Malinois was using him to access Cartouche, et al. In other words, genetics played the major role in his breeding theory or it was simple gambling, and there may have been ten "crap" dogs for every one great dog he produced. Who knows?

You all are much more experienced at this that I am, but my guess is that genetics is the meat of it and the right enviroment its spice.


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## Danny Craig

Christopher Smith said:


> Where is Kadi's post?


My bad. From the thread 'testing vs. ruining'

"I'm not selecting police K9's, but I think the answer is pretty simple, you have to know what you are doing, and know where that fine line is between pushing a dog a little out of their comfort zone, and pushing them into avoidance. The hard part is finding people who can actually do this. I think a lot of people THINK they can do this, but aren't as good at it as they think. They also have the attitude that if they push to hard and damage or ruin the dog, no biggy, they can always return it to the seller. Recently happened to a friend of mine, they sold a 9-10 month old dog to someone, supposed to be the persons personal dog although they are also a trainer/broker of police dogs. First thing they did when the dog got off the plane was test it, and chase it. And this is someone who is supposed to know what they are doing, been in the dog business for many years. Oh, and did I mention they hadn't actually paid for the dog yet? They sent a scan of a "receipt" showing the money had been set to the sellers bank account, except no money ever showed up. Getting the dog back turned into one excuse after another as to why the dog couldn't be shipped, 2 weeks later the dog finally came back, with issues."
__________________


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## Harry Keely

I'm not saying that there are no titled dogs that are not breed worthy, just tired of alot of people saying if the dog doesn't have a title then the dog is no good for anything. I have seen alot of ****ing dogs that are breed worthy that don't have titles as well as titled dogs that are shit bags. All I'm saying is take your head out of your butt and you will see that there are plenty of police dogs and other dogs out there that are not SPORT DOGS with TITLES that will smoke any other dogs out there. Most KNPV and police dogs while in training to get titled/cert. have the genetic make up, workability, stability and can stand up to any enviromental stimulus better than most other higher scoring titled sport dogs. Not going to sit here and argue over B.S. of what you think you know and don't know. Just look at the facts for yourself and when you do you will wake up and see there are good untitled just like titled dogs for breeding.:wink:


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## Martine Loots

Jerry Cudahy said:


> Hey Will I have a video of G'Vitou that appears to be a NVBK trial. Jeff is going to go balistic when he reads this. I promised him that vid and I lazed out sending it.



Would you mind posting that video Jerry?
Just curious because I don't remember him competing.


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## Martine Loots

Steve Groen said:


> If it is true that Luc Vansteenbrugge didn't title G'Vitou, then one of the most prolific breeders of Malinois was using him to access Cartouche, et al.* In other words, genetics played the major role in his breeding theory or it was simple gambling, *and there may have been ten "crap" dogs for every one great dog he produced. Who knows?
> 
> You all are much more experienced at this that I am, but my guess is that genetics is the meat of it and the right enviroment its spice.



Only thing that played a role was that he was a hell of a dog and he proved that he was a good stud too.
Over here we don't care about titles at all when it comes to stud dogs.
I know quite a few good sport dogs that even made it to championship titles and they were never used as a stud. 
When it comes to choosing a stud then I want to see the dog perform while training and under pressure but I'm not interested in watching him compete.


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## Steve Groen

Martine Loots said:


> Only thing that played a role was that he was a hell of a dog and he proved that he was a good stud too.
> Over here we don't care about titles at all when it comes to stud dogs.
> I know quite a few good sport dogs that even made it to championship titles and they were never used as a stud.
> When it comes to choosing a stud then I want to see the dog perform while training and under pressure but I'm not interested in watching him compete.


Thanks, Martine. I always enjoy (and learn from) your comments.

Steve Groen


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## Michelle Reusser

No way to guess. You have to breed the dog and see what it produces, that is the 1 and only sure fire way, you will ever know what it's breeding potential is. Tons of nice sport dogs out there, that can't reproduce half of themselves in a single pup from various litters.


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## Jerry Cudahy

Martine Loots said:


> Would you mind posting that video Jerry?
> Just curious because I don't remember him competing.


Hi Martine, it is a old vhs. I do not even have a vhs machine any longer. I have promised Jeff he could have my old vhs tapes. Now that this has come back up I will send to him and then we can all razz Jefff to share the vid.

It will also have to be converted from the European format. 

There will also be a Vid of a French Ring Championship with Gallais as Decoy.


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## Harry Keely

Martine Loots said:


> Only thing that played a role was that he was a hell of a dog and he proved that he was a good stud too.
> Over here we don't care about titles at all when it comes to stud dogs.
> I know quite a few good sport dogs that even made it to championship titles and they were never used as a stud.
> When it comes to choosing a stud then I want to see the dog perform while training and under pressure but I'm not interested in watching him compete.


Thanks Martine its good to know that there is other well known people out there that breed for specific needs and not because of a title. Im glad there are folks out there like yourself that have a brain and a head on there shoulders that actually know what it takes to breed worthy pups.


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## Harry Keely

Folks just for your knowledge I guess I'm a looser because I bred two NON TITLED dogs:-o and produced 10 pups. 3 duals, 4 singles, 2 sports, 1 shit bag that is nothing more than a club level dog and home PPD. There now 16 months old and people are still smiling. Not bad for no titles and just breeding off of genetics and workability of the parents huh.


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## Christopher Smith

Harry Keely said:


> Folks just for your knowledge I guess I'm a looser because I bred two NON TITLED dogs:-o and produced 10 pups. 3 duals, 4 singles, 2 sports, 1 shit bag that is nothing more than a club level dog and home PPD. There now 16 months old and people are still smiling. Not bad for no titles and just breeding off of genetics and workability of the parents huh.


You're calling yourself a cowboy and you don't even own a horse yet. Stop breaking your arm trying to pat yourself on the back and let's wait and see how many of these dogs actually make it on the street or sport field. People say a they are going to do all kinds of cool stuff with a puppy, but you are opening yourself up for a world of disappointment if you believe that they are all going to follow through. 

Also this one litter will not make you a looser or a winner. This one litter only makes you a guy that bred a litter. We'll know when if you are winner or looser when you have a breeding program.


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## Pia Porko

Thank you all for your opinions, a lot to think about. Not that I'd be even thinking breeding any of my dogs since they're NOT breeding material, but useful things to think about for future reference if I ever get my hands on a female I'd be able to consider. In addition to all other aspects (such as health, characteristics etc.) I've come to realize that there's a question I should be able to answer YES if I was to consider using my dog: Would I be willing to take a puppy for myself from that combination? If I'm able to answer yes, then I could think about it further. If I answered no, why bother? If I didn't truly think this combination is worth doing and would aim in improving the breed, then I'd just be adding to the number of dogs, not breeding.


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## Mike Scheiber

Pia Porko said:


> Thank you all for your opinions, a lot to think about. Not that I'd be even thinking breeding any of my dogs since they're NOT breeding material, but useful things to think about for future reference if I ever get my hands on a female I'd be able to consider. In addition to all other aspects (such as health, characteristics etc.) I've come to realize that there's a question I should be able to answer YES if I was to consider using my dog: Would I be willing to take a puppy for myself from that combination? If I'm able to answer yes, then I could think about it further. If I answered no, why bother? If I didn't truly think this combination is worth doing and would aim in improving the breed, then I'd just be adding to the number of dogs, not breeding.


I wish more people would ask themselves these questions and even better if they new the rite answer


Pia Porko said:


> I've come to realize that there's a question I should be able to answer YES if I was to consider using my dog: Would I be willing to take a puppy for myself from that combination? If I'm able to answer yes, then I could think about it further. If I answered no, why bother? If I didn't truly think this combination is worth doing and would aim in improving the breed, then I'd just be adding to the number of dogs, not breeding.


The forgotten question "improving the breed" or at the very least improving your lines if you have any to improve the flavor here is lets make and sell puppies


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## Derek Milliken

Harry, 
Not to dispute what you know, you an I have never met.
I agree, some of the best dogs are untitled, one of the best GSD I've known was 95lbs and just touched on the top of the SchH Aframe. Civil aggressive and tons of drive, but only got his BH due to an older, infirm handler.
That said, when you say good genetics in your breeding dogs, I'm wondering what you're going back to? Hips? Elbows? Or sport titles?


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## Anita Griffing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEN5S893yMU

Yes these people believe they are doing the right thing
and breeding great dogs, too. All they
need are registration papers and their good sense....lovely
dogs. ](*,) If there are no standards this is what happens.
Most people think they know what they are doing when it
comes to breeding. (I wonder how many are dysplastic,
gun shy, fearful, etc., mssing teeth, have elbow dysplasia? 
OH THAT'S right we DON"T know)

Anita


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## Pia Porko

Anita Griffing said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEN5S893yMU
> 
> (I wonder how many are dysplastic,
> gun shy, fearful, etc., mssing teeth, have elbow dysplasia?
> OH THAT'S right we DON"T know)


And if they do they sure as h**l won't tell anyone! 
I think it's the same mentality as with whatever-mixed-breeds; common (stupid) opinion is they're healthier than pure bred dogs, but but but.. Not examining the dogs' health doesn't mean the problems aren't there! How many mutts get their hips/elbows/backs examined, eyes checked etc..? I dare to say not too many if any?


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## Gillian Schuler

I read once about the heritability rates in dogs (will try and find it).

I remember though, that the heritability of temperament was low in that two "high drive" dogs would not automatically produce a dog with temperament.

HD is no longer a problem in "our" GSDs. Health will always prevail. 

It's useless in my mind to compare high-scoring sports dogs with others (alone from the talent of the handlers).


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## Anita Griffing

Gillian Schuler said:


> I read once about the heritability rates in dogs (will try and find it).
> 
> I remember though, that the heritability of temperament was low in that two "high drive" dogs would not automatically produce a dog with temperament.
> 
> HD is no longer a problem in "our" GSDs. Health will always prevail.
> 
> It's useless in my mind to compare high-scoring sports dogs with others (alone from the talent of the handlers).


Maybe we are not on the same page with what exactly "heritability of temparament" means...

I have personally seen dogs that work in the same way as the parents. The bark sounds
the same, the rythym of the bark sounds the same, the grip is naturally the same (ie
chewy or naturally full) If we agree that different breeds have general charactistics of
how the do the work then it has got to be genetic JMO. Take for example Aly Vordersteinwald...
who produced a lot of screamers. 

I had a AKC doberman judge tell me that the only thing dogs inherit from each other
is conformation....bwahahahaha
Anita


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## Joby Becker

traits involved wit temperament are fairly complex genetically and not as highly heritable as the simpler traits. It is that simple.

The dogs that reproduce themselves well have more dominant gene pairs involved in the package.


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## Gillian Schuler

So we are on the same page maybe?


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## Joby Becker

Gillian Schuler said:


> So we are on the same page maybe?


me and you are...LOL


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## Harry Keely

Christopher Smith said:


> You're calling yourself a cowboy and you don't even own a horse yet. Stop breaking your arm trying to pat yourself on the back and let's wait and see how many of these dogs actually make it on the street or sport field. People say a they are going to do all kinds of cool stuff with a puppy, but you are opening yourself up for a world of disappointment if you believe that they are all going to follow through.
> 
> Also this one litter will not make you a looser or a winner. This one litter only makes you a guy that bred a litter. We'll know when if you are winner or looser when you have a breeding program.


Chris not trying to pat myself on back just trying to open the eyes of close minded folks. As far as the pups from my most recent breeding there going in the right direction that they were originally purchased for matter of fact all the duals and 2 of 3 singles will be certifying this year as of planned as far as the sport dogs one will be getting a BH I believe soon. Matter of fact most the time I pick a dog out or pup for a job my sucess rate has been pretty dam flawless over the last 16 or so years of course with a few bad impulsive buys that is. As far as a breeding program will never happen, I don't need to breed nor sell to make a living, never have and never will, dogs are a hobby and always will be. I have seen all these big time kennels open shop also will most likely watch them close too and here I am still enjoying life with strong dogs.


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## Harry Keely

Derek Milliken said:


> Harry,
> Not to dispute what you know, you an I have never met.
> I agree, some of the best dogs are untitled, one of the best GSD I've known was 95lbs and just touched on the top of the SchH Aframe. Civil aggressive and tons of drive, but only got his BH due to an older, infirm handler.
> That said, when you say good genetics in your breeding dogs, I'm wondering what you're going back to? Hips? Elbows? Or sport titles?


Derek breeding and buying dogs is really a double edge open book for the eyes of whos looking and what your looking for in a breeding or dog. I would gladly open up to what I go back to but what breed are you referring too and I will list some of the dogs / genetics that I like, As far as hips and elbows of course thats important and like I posted earlier I'm not against titles but you you need to keep a open mind because theres alot more to a dog then just a piece of paper wheter it be a title or AKC paper.


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## Derek Milliken

Harry,
I wasn't specifically referring to any breed, but if you'd like to share info, I'm always happy to listen.
As for what you said regarding titles and registration, you're absolutely right. Up here we have the CKC and I think it's an even more useless organization then the AKC down there. My current young dog is still only registered in Holland, and I doubt he ever will be registered here in Canada.


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## Harry Keely

Derek Milliken said:


> Harry,
> I wasn't specifically referring to any breed, but if you'd like to share info, I'm always happy to listen.
> As for what you said regarding titles and registration, you're absolutely right. Up here we have the CKC and I think it's an even more useless organization then the AKC down there. My current young dog is still only registered in Holland, and I doubt he ever will be registered here in Canada.


U a mal / DS ( Dutch line ) person or a mal person or a GSD person?


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## Derek Milliken

I started off in german shepherds /SchH just like most.
My young dog is a mal though, and like I say, pedigreed/registered.
Next time, who knows?


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## Pia Porko

I just don't see myself ever changing GSD for a mal, guess I'm still optimistic on finding that nice GSD to do sports with/live with/breed with. There are some nice mals out there but they'll just never eat outta my table.. Not my kinda dog.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

You can have the best dog there is, and if no one breeds to him, you will never know. Too much inhibition about breeding here in the US.

I have that problem with Buko, and I know many others that their dogs will probably never breed. Good genetics that never get used. That is how it has been for as long as I remember generally speaking.


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## Grant Cusworth

I was told by a breeder/trainer from France that the best dogs for breeding are often the dogs that don't have titles (in ring anyway).

His philosophy (and it makes sense to me) was that a high scoring dog, or a champion, by virtue of his scores and titles has proven to be quite malleable. While this is good for competition, if you breed to this dog, the character is further diluted and produces a softer animal. He believed that you can breed successfully one or maybe two generations away from the "lion" that can't be titled before those genes are too diluted to produce a dog with enough character for the highest levels of opposition.

Now I'm sure there are examples from every corner that would say otherwise, but as a general rule and for the best success rate in a breeding program I think this is good logic. 

Grant


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## Daniel Lybbert

If thats the case then all dogs will be eventually diluted because the origanals died. 

I do ring. I dont want a super killer hard to handle prick. I want dogs that are fast, can jump, bite and be enjoyable to train,and be with. I need very high scores. In order to get that I think a dog needs to be some what sensitive to the handler.

Im no breeder of dogs. I know horses and how horses are bred. You breed the world champion barrel horses to the daughter of the fastest horses on the planet. Bucking horses are bred to the best bucking horses. Champion Race horses are worth millions. It is the best in the desired discilpines bred to the same. 

Animals bred this way will be genetically prone to doing the desired work. I wanting ring dogs would not be interested in a breeding of 2 hard headed fighting machines.


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## Grant Cusworth

Daniel Lybbert said:


> If thats the case then all dogs will be eventually diluted because the origanals died.
> 
> I do ring. I dont want a super killer hard to handle prick. I want dogs that are fast, can jump, bite and be enjoyable to train,and be with. I need very high scores. In order to get that I think a dog needs to be some what sensitive to the handler.
> 
> Im no breeder of dogs. I know horses and how horses are bred. You breed the world champion barrel horses to the daughter of the fastest horses on the planet. Bucking horses are bred to the best bucking horses. Champion Race horses are worth millions. It is the best in the desired discilpines bred to the same.
> 
> Animals bred this way will be genetically prone to doing the desired work. I wanting ring dogs would not be interested in a breeding of 2 hard headed fighting machines.


I think you're reading me wrong...

First off, horses are bred for speed, bucking... whatever the discipline. I agree. But given two horses of the same speed potential, the one that wins on race day is the one with the stronger character, the one who _needs_ to win, the one who _must_ win, the one who when he/she sees another horse in front has such a strong drive to be in front that it will push itself to death to be that lead horse.

And I'm not saying that I want a hard headed dog to compete with. I want the dog that was out of the hard headed prick. I want the dog that is just diluted enough to be manageable, but not so much that when the heavy gets dropped from a top notch decoy the dog gives up. I know that with perfect training, shortcomings can be overcome, but with my shit training, I need the dog to be strong enough to tolerate my mistakes and keep coming back for more...:lol:

Grant


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## Derek Milliken

Grant,
I've heard some well respected germans say much the same thing. That often when they breed, they're breeding to the dog that wasn't on the podium, but was just off, because they felt that dog had more attitude.
Of course, that also assumes a good trainer.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: 
Now I'm sure there are examples from every corner that would say otherwise,

Not me. I know for a fact that is how it works. Actual hands on experience, unlike so many that are just repeaters with no experience.


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## Martine Loots

Grant Cusworth said:


> I was told by a breeder/trainer from France that the best dogs for breeding are often the dogs that don't have titles (in ring anyway).
> 
> His philosophy (and it makes sense to me) was that a high scoring dog, or a champion, by virtue of his scores and titles has proven to be quite malleable. While this is good for competition, if you breed to this dog, the character is further diluted and produces a softer animal. He believed that you can breed successfully one or maybe two generations away from the "lion" that can't be titled before those genes are too diluted to produce a dog with enough character for the highest levels of opposition.
> 
> Now I'm sure there are examples from every corner that would say otherwise, but as a general rule and for the best success rate in a breeding program I think this is good logic.
> 
> Grant


I agree that the most top scoring sport dogs aren't necessarily the best studs because of the reasons you mentioned. There are exceptions but they are rare as most handlers can't score high with a very strong dog.
That's why we don't care about titles or scores when selecting a stud.


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## Anita Griffing

As far as Germany goes and their GSD and Dobermans go, you must have a title on both
parents to register the progeny. They make rules because they know "opinions are like ....,
and everyone has one". Almost everyone thinks they are smart enough to know what a good 
dog is, but atleast (there) they have to stick within the confines of the rules. The FACT is when 
people are allowed to breed what they think is best we get the Dobes and GSDs like the
ones at the Westminster without even a hip xray minimum... The show dogs of Germany
driven by money, still have to have a minimum of hip/elbow xrays, and a title, etc. 
Anita


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## Christopher Smith

Anita Griffing said:


> The FACT is when
> people are allowed to breed what they think is best we get the Dobes and GSDs like the
> ones at the Westminster without even a hip xray minimum...


I agree that that is one scenario. But it's far from being an absolute fact. People breed what they like for the KNPV and NVBK program and those programs produce a lot of good working dogs. Why are the breeders of KNPV and NVBK so successful at producing working dogs? Remember they are not required to title dogs or do health checks.


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## Danny Craig

Christopher Smith said:


> I agree that that is one scenario. But it's far from being an absolute fact. People breed what they like for the KNPV and NVBK program and those programs produce a lot of good working dogs. Why are the breeders of KNPV and NVBK so successful at producing working dogs? Remember they are not required to title dogs or do health checks.


Do any of the American agencies that purchase dogs (Border Patrol, PDs, Homeland Security, Military, Customs, etc.) buy dogs without health certs (i.e., appropriate radiographs)? Just curious. :wink:


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## Christopher Smith

Border Patrol, PDs, Homeland Security, Military, Customs, etc, are essentially genetic dead ends and I don't care what they do, nor does that have any to do with the subject at hand which is sport dogs and breeding. :razz:


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## Danny Craig

Christopher Smith said:


> Border Patrol, PDs, Homeland Security, Military, Customs, etc, are essentially genetic dead ends and I don't care what they do, nor does that have any to do with the subject at hand which is sport dogs and breeding. :razz:


The point is, the KNPV dogs are screened. 

I'm guessing all these agencies require pertinent radiographs to ensure that they are not purchasing defective product. Most of the KNPV dogs are sold to these agencies. KNPV breeders are successful (so says you). Wonder why these agencies insist on something more than the breeder's good intentions?

An important consideration when it comes to breeding stock is health. We can take a breeder's word and best intentions or we can verify using readily available technology.

I'm sure all the good KNPV breeders use only breeding stock that is reliably producing healthy dogs. (For you, since you don't equate good hip rads with health, the breeder's breeding stock must produce dogs that have 'photogenic' hips and elbows.) Otherwise they won't be selling many dogs. Since the 'get' are screened, the breeder knows which breeding stock are producing what. If a KNPV breeder has the gnarliest stud and that stud produces dogs with 'unphotogenic' hip and elbow rads, then, as a simple business decision, that breeder is not going to use that stud. No matter how impressive he is.


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## Christopher Smith

Danny Craig said:


> The point is, the KNPV dogs are screened.


That might be *your* point, but this has nothing at all to do with what Anita and I were discussing. We are talking about rules that bind a breeder to the results of the x-rays. When a KNPV or NVBK breeder breeds a dog they are not bound by the results of x-rays. They are still allowed to make what ever decision they want about whether or not they want to breed the dog. 



Maybe you would care to answer. Why are the breeders of KNPV and NVBK so successful at producing working dogs if they don't have mandatory health screening?


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## Danny Craig

Christopher Smith said:


> That might be *your* point, but this has nothing at all to do with what Anita and I were discussing. We are talking about rules that bind a breeder to the results of the x-rays. When a KNPV or NVBK breeder breeds a dog they are not bound by the results of x-rays. They are still allowed to make what ever decision they want about whether or not they want to breed the dog.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe you would care to answer. Why are the breeders of KNPV and NVBK so successful at producing working dogs if they don't have mandatory health screening?


That's my point! :grin: Their screening IS mandatory! (If they want to stay in business that is.)


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## Christopher Smith

So the only reason you breed is for the money right? I always thought you cared about the dogs.


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## Anita Griffing

Well, personally and admittedly ignorantly, I had no idea that KNPV dogs
were so much stronger...lolol. I have experience with IPO/SchH only and
mostly German lineage, and I *really* like them. 

For the last time, =D>, what happens with the American GSD is fact. 
To register a GSD in America, all you need are registration papers. No
hip xray, elbow xray, AD, Korung, or Schutzhund title or HDZW. Hmmm?
I don't know about others, but even I can spot an American GSD when it
just walks by on phenotype alone. I am sure, if you approached top
American GSD breeders, they would say they are doing the 'right' thing
and that these dogs are beautiful and have great character. 
Even if their back legs look like egg-beaters, and they can't stand loud noises.
So, what I am saying, is that this is an example of people who think
they got it 'going on' when it comes to breeding. lolololol 
Anita


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