# A fine line



## Lisa Radcliffe (Jun 9, 2011)

While I have no problem with a handler/trainer who gives a fair correction and clear communication at what ever level maybe needed depending on the dog/situation I have seen things that go over the line from the same few people training/trialing in my area. People are talking about it, everyone knows it yet no one says anything. It is hard to look the other way. One dog a 3 time world competitor, a wonderful dog who should be respected not live the rest of his life out in club level trials like a circus animal treated in such a bad way. When a little boy watching a trial is heard saying " mommy that man kicked his dog in the head" it's no wonder why the general public wonders about bite sports and e-collars. The last few things I saw are hard to get out of my head, what would you do?


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## Jehane Michael Le Grange (Feb 24, 2009)

If the corrections are over the line, then I would advise that the club chairman deals with it severely. If the offender is the club chairman then someone needs to step up and make a "scene" and address it at a committee meeting, etc. I am more confrontational than most people and would probably approach the person immediately on the field and give them a piece of my mind but that can lead to other problems so I don't recommend that.

Personally, I can be a hard handler but fair and always to the dogs level. With that being said, you should never resort to kicking a dog or hitting it (unless of course the dog really attacks you and you are protecting yourself) as it makes no training sense at all and the dog will probably just be more confused and unsure and more likely to show avoidance to the exercise as opposed to the correction doing what it should namely, serve as a negative REINFORCER, which would make the dog more likely to take on the correct exercise behaviour. Usually those who act out and handle in that way have very little understanding of the dog, its psychology and the exercise at hand and probably act out of frustration and dissatisfaction as opposed to trying to correct the dogs behaviour. It shows and escalation of the pain they want to inflict on the dog and is uncalled for. I have seen killer dogs trained without being hit or kicked but simply given hard corrections with a pinch or electric so it can be done. 

It is all of our responsibilities, as dog trainers, to uphold the image of dog training. We need to be sensitive towards what the community feels and sees when they watch training, educate the general public and act fairly towards the dog. We should put ourselves in the publics' shoes when we act. We should also remember that we are working with a dog, not a machine and they make mistakes, and we are there to correct them and help them, not abuse them. I think we often forget that when the ego starts taking over.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

^^^^^^^^^ exactly and well bloody said.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Lisa Radcliffe said:


> While I have no problem with a handler/trainer who gives a fair correction and clear communication at what ever level maybe needed depending on the dog/situation *I have seen things that go over the line from the same few people training/trialing in my area*. People are talking about it, everyone knows it yet no one says anything. It is hard to look the other way. One dog a 3 time world competitor, a wonderful dog who should be respected not live the rest of his life out in club level trials like a circus animal treated in such a bad way. *When a little boy watching a trial is heard saying " mommy that man kicked his dog in the head" it's no wonder why the general public wonders about bite sports and e-collars.* The last few things I saw are hard to get out of my head, what would you do?


This is happening at a trial? 
Aren't their rules for this type of thing at trials?

Personal I dont see a relationship between kicking a dog in the head, and using an ecollar, but I do see what you mean, as far as the public goes.

Is the dog in question, with his original owner that took him to the worlds 3 times or is this a different handler?

My personal philosophy is people can do what they want with their dogs, whether I like it or not, if it crosses a line into actual abuse then that is a tough situation, especially at events where the public is invited..

We have tossed people out of our events for corrections that crossed the line on occasion, and I saw one girl get tossed from a PP event for "kicking" (tapping) the dog with the right foot, behind her, during a left side heel, which was a common adjustment for her, the "kick" was nothing in reality, but was severely frowned upon by the event people, who were diligent about keeping up the image for the public. They did explain over the PA system to everyone, that while the kick itself was not abusive, like it may have seemed to some people, it was not allowed.

Ever see a dog get dragged over a hurdle? not pretty.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> This is happening at a trial?
> Aren't their rules for this type of thing at trials?
> 
> Personal I dont see a relationship between kicking a dog in the head, and using an ecollar, but I do see what you mean, as far as the public goes.
> ...


Good post, Joby. 

I'm not even sure the general public is all that aware of grip sports anyway. 

Also as far as ecollars go, the general public has a knee jerk reaction because electricity is involved, they have no clue and couldn't care less what the level of the correction is. They equate ecollars with the electric chair.

As far as club level vs world level trials, I'm not sure what your point is. Are you saying the dog should be retired and not trialed at all because he has trialed at the world level? Is your issue the fact that the dog is still competing but only at the club level?

Lisa could you be more specific as to what is going on? Not names, but a description of what is being done to the dog during trial and during training?


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

"Ever see a dog get dragged over a hurdle? not pretty."

No it ain't. Not at all. I've learned that if the dog is telling you "screw you" during training, he/she is definintely going to tell you the same right before a trial. If there is not enough clarity in your training and you've not done enough thorough training w/ correction/compulsion, that one little moment (for a strong character dog) right before a trial is not going to make any difference at all.


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## JOE SAMSON JR (Feb 24, 2009)

i don't get it ...... if you know about it and its abuse call them on it pretty simple


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Lisa...there are good owners and trainers and then there are morons. As a retired classroom teacher, if I kicked ever kid who didn't get the answer right, I'd be locked up.

Folks abuse animals because the can and they haven't the mindset on HOW to train. Everthing takes training at different levels and ways of understanding. Frustration is a goal for teachers or K9 handlers!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Zakia Days said:


> "Ever see a dog get dragged over a hurdle? not pretty."
> 
> No it ain't. Not at all. I've learned that if the dog is telling you "screw you" during training, he/she is definintely going to tell you the same right before a trial. If there is not enough clarity in your training and you've not done enough thorough training w/ correction/compulsion, that one little moment (for a strong character dog) right before a trial is not going to make any difference at all.


I can see what you are saying, and would agree...

it was as screw you moment from a seasoned strong charactered dog, shortly before a trial, but the dog did perform in trial.

not something I would do personally, but it worked that time for that dog, for that person.


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

One of the trials I went to the judge told everyone. "There is a fine line between correcting a high drive dog and abuse." I think that's very true, while there are times when there is no doubt, most of the time it's not so clear. 

Most abuse laws are written in an ambiguous way where there is a lot of room for interpretation. What's crosses the line for a reasonable correction for me and what it is for you could be way different.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

At the club I belonged to no physical corrections were allowed. The down side to that is no training method of any kind addresses leadership. I've seen good dogs go to waste with all methods because of that. 
To many train with (insert method here) because that's what they were told to do.


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## Lisa Radcliffe (Jun 9, 2011)

Thank you for the replies, most can agree it is a tough situation. This kind of behavior has very little meaning for people who are willing to treat a dog with such disregard for the sake of "training" and could careless what others think but at some point something has to give, more than not it is the dog, then you hear those same people blame the dog, not their training. I often hear people say a good dog is a good dog! one that can stand all the pressure put on them by this kind of handler and still go on. I am inclined to think the dog that takes so much then one day say's no more it's your turn to pay! is a good dog! either way the dog pays the price-


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## Lisa Radcliffe (Jun 9, 2011)

susan tuck said:


> Good post, Joby.
> 
> I'm not even sure the general public is all that aware of grip sports anyway.
> 
> ...


 Susan, PM sent-


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Well I reckon if you are going to apply physical correction to a dog you need to test it on yourself first. So if you feel the need to kick your dog in the head, get some one to kick you in the head or ribs or whatever first.

On the rare occassion that I have smacked my dogs for doing life threatening activities like chasing snakes and roos I test it out on my leg first. Sounds bizarre but then I have an idea of what sort of force I am applying to my dog. For my dogs pain isnt the factor it is the shock that I actually smacked them, which has the desired effect when it comes to deterring snakes etc. chasing activities.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Poor, poor dog. Really heartbreaking and so unfair.


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## Lynda Myers (Jul 16, 2008)

If it truly is abuse report it to the authorities! I personally have a very low tolerance for abuse of animals/children and feel responsible adults should act on behalf. Erroring on the side of the innocent. 
I remember one club telling of an incident about a very bad abuse to a dog during a training session. Someone even video taped it. And probably still talk about it even today. No one ever mentioned if someone even lifted a finger to help the dog! But these same people questioned the ethics and morals of person because of their ideals about breeding practises. Yet didn't see their non involved of the above mentioned dog as unethical or immoral. 
Things that make you say Hmmm!


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Yeah, I asked whether someone had intervened for the dog. The answer was no. Couldn't help but think of the bar room rape. This is one of those you know it when you see it. I try to tell myselft to tend to my own business but once had my little life at stake with a 300 lb nutcase over how he was treating a puppy. Not one of my smartest moves. I've gotten to the point of you wanna cross the line, I don't want to experience it in any shape or form and go to far I've been known to grab a lead and take the dog from them. Then there was the clinic where I jumped the fence and went after the clinician for what he did to a dog that I bred and really wanted to fry the person who allowed it. Get a dog or baby/kid involved and I don't even know myself. Someone needs to step up and do something and set the bar for training amongst that group of people. Let them know that they either abide by the standard or take a hike. What people will do and tolerate in the name of title grubbing is at times shocking. Just because the dog didn't crumble doesn't make it right. And the TD can do no wrong culture really gets me. If the club or TD refused to reign them in, they wouldn't continue to get my dues or participation. If it happens at a trial, report it. Screw the public. Dog people need to police themselves. Screw the mentality that says we wanna test how much of an ass kicking will the dog take so you can chest pound that he's so tough; or worse, "we want him to look really serious when he is in the blind."


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

There's really not much she can do if anything at all, I don't think what's going on rises to the legal definition of abuse, it's just one of those sad cases where your heart goes out to the animal because you know it's not fair, but still falls shy of real abuse. Hard to explain, harder to witness.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I think there are trial/event rules. No one wants to have to deal with this. We had a trial many years ago that I was chairing. As I'm walking towards the arena holding the trophies, I look up and an exhibitor is walking off the field and his dog is walking on his hind legs and he has him by the collar. Now he's at least 6'3. It was surreal. I yell out, "*****" put that dog down. Someone else is yelling, "Terrasita, he can't do that, we gotta have a bench committee." What a mess that went up the ladder to the AKC legal department and had repercussions all over the place. I have had people come to me to say they could see said person beating their dog in the woods with a chain. Without them making a report, I didn't see it and my hands are tied. They claim they are new to the sport and don't want anyone to know that they are the one that brought it to my attention. It may not be abuse but there is still the idea of what you may do at home, you don't do in public. Kick the dog in the head????? I know it won't make you popular and people will yell squealer but that's wht happens when you have the guts to stand up for something someone. Just alert the event chair to keep an eye out---something. I can disagree with training methods but not feel that the dog is mistreated. That's different and generally I say to myself--to each's own. But some handler behaviors are just unacceptable in a public setting.

T


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Lisa Radcliffe said:


> While I have no problem with a handler/trainer who gives a fair correction and clear communication at what ever level maybe needed depending on the dog/situation I have seen things that go over the line from the same few people training/trialing in my area. *People are talking about it, everyone knows it yet no one says anything.* It is hard to look the other way. One dog a 3 time world competitor, a wonderful dog who should be respected not live the rest of his life out in club level trials like a circus animal treated in such a bad way. When a little boy watching a trial is heard saying " mommy that man kicked his dog in the head" it's no wonder why the general public wonders about bite sports and e-collars. The last few things I saw are hard to get out of my head, *what would you do?*


Are you close with any of the people who are talking about it and have they also seen what you've seen? If so, and if they too are concerned, maybe you guys could get together with the person in question and/or his club training director (I would choose somewhere public, like for coffee). Rather than confronting the man on his less than stellar treatment of his dogs (which might result in him being very defensive, flipping all y'all the bird and stomping off), perhaps approach the situation as being concerned for the public's perception, these days A/R eyes are everywhere, it's grip sport, have to extra aware, that kind of stuff. Maybe even get him to talking, and in the long run, going in a different direction with his training.

There was a guy in our little training group that had gained a reputation as a real hard ass. He was very strong, one time I saw him give a correction that was very close to helicoptering his dog over something minor. It turns out nobody had ever shown him the right way to train, he was doing what he had been taught, and doing what he had seen, coupled with a macho attitude. Once he was with the right coach, his turnaround was spectacular. He had always had the heart for his dogs, he just had been led down the wrong path.


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## Lisa Radcliffe (Jun 9, 2011)

susan tuck said:


> There's really not much she can do if anything at all, I don't think what's going on rises to the legal definition of abuse, it's just one of those sad cases where your heart goes out to the animal because you know it's not fair, but still falls shy of real abuse. Hard to explain, harder to witness.


 Sue, a good way to put into words what is not a unfamilier situation that some of us witness at some point in this sport- "sad cases" for the sake of training-


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i was assuming this forum has some long arms in the WD arena 

If you see stuff that you have been describing why not NAME NAMES and CLUBS and let the chips fall where they should ?
....maybe we might get the other side involved and hear a different version  wouldn't be the first time we had a "scuffle" on here 

thot i read a post on this thread about how we need to police ourselves ](*,)](*,)

just my opinion, but i don't care for the I saw "someone" do "something" posts, and then read more stuff that other people have seen .. what good does that do ?
....one good thing cyberspace can do is sometimes throw light where it needs to be thrown

and I have never felt this list was shy about speaking straight and getting to the point 

poor good dogs get beat up all over the world on a daily basis...it happens...but if bringing some shoddy training methods into the light of day will help a working dog i'm all for it since they are the ones that get the shi**y end of the stick


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Lisa Radcliffe said:


> While I have no problem with a handler/trainer who gives a fair correction and clear communication at what ever level maybe needed depending on the dog/situation I have seen things that go over the line from the same few people training/trialing in my area. People are talking about it, everyone knows it yet no one says anything. It is hard to look the other way. One dog a 3 time world competitor, a wonderful dog who should be respected not live the rest of his life out in club level trials like a circus animal treated in such a bad way. When a little boy watching a trial is heard saying " mommy that man kicked his dog in the head" it's no wonder why the general public wonders about bite sports and e-collars. The last few things I saw are hard to get out of my head, what would you do?


Your asking what I would do in a case where someone has gone from training to abuse. Here's I would not do. Sit idley by and do nothing as it has been suggested. I would at least put on my big boy pants, and confront the person....possibly with multiple people who share the same thoughts. I would explain to him, that this is his only warning. If he abuses his dog anymore, that the police will be called. I will let the cops decide if the abuse fits the legal definition, not the members of the WDF. I believe this is handling things like an adult. Talk to him, tell him the expectation, and what will happen if he fails to meet it.....simple as dog training.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

anyone ever get the cops to show up and rule on a dog abuse event ?? ...and how do get the abuser to stick around and wait for em to show up ??? 
//rotflmao//

what i did last summer ...
watched a guy walking his young black lab pup trying to get EC when heeling it...EVERY time the dog looked away he would yank on it-HARD-

the damn pup was trying like hell not to get yanked and keep up with the bastard at the same time since he was dragging it at a pretty fast pace...watched from a distance until i felt like popping the guy on the back of the head
- finally yelled at him to stop, tied my dog up came up and got on his case BAD
took the leash right out of his hand and said watch ... lured the little guy around and his eyes stayed glued to the treat in my hand in my face ...great little pup
- then gave the leash back and told him if i saw him jerking that pup's neck again i would follow him home and steal his dog from him

might not work in the states but sure does here when you're a "crazy foreigner" and you know the local cops 
...i make it a DEFINITE part of "the training plan" to take all the dogs i'm working with around as many police station boxes as i can ... comes in handy if/when you need them

but i'm still with James - if you see something you think is abusive get in their face, but if it's at a club trial i still think we should all hear what club it is and try and shed some light on the problem


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

rick smith said:


> anyone ever get the cops to show up and rule on a dog abuse event ?? ...and how do get the abuser to stick around and wait for em to show up ???


I get assigned a lot of these cases, probably 4-5 within the last year. None of them have been able to file a case with the district attorney. My predecessor had several of these cases and was able to get one arrested and filed on. Part of it is the TX statute is written weird. (PC 42.10 if anyone is interested). Short version, you can cause injury to your own animal providing it wasn't done in a "torturing" type of way. Now if you cause serious bodily injury (broken bones, etc) then it's a violation. 

One case, boyfriend picks up he and his girlfriend's dog (pup) they bought together, who tries to steal food from his plate, and slams him on the floor. Dog cowers away limping. Girlfriend who get's highly offended takes the dog to the vet, no serious injury, in fact the injury is a common injury for a pup (according to vet) and there would be no lasting problems. I was told a pup could slip on wet grass or a slick floor and get the same injury. The dog was fine in a couple days with some anti-inflamatory's. I wanted to arrest the moron, I think we all agree the behavior was inappropriate. Just not a violation according to the statute since it was his dog. I do know one of the local animal groups, climbed all over them though. 

That was the one case I thought I was really going to be able to make an arrest, but the medical records didn't pan out. Just an example how silly our statute is written.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

It should put anyone to shame who doesn't report such incidents, preferably there and then. Nowadays everyone has an Ipod or Cell phone.

We were training at our club and one of the handlers was ready to start trialling. His dog made a mistake and the handler held him up by the scruff of his neck and shook him. The dog didn't suffer much physical damage but our trainer butted in with the comments "if you're so down on your nerves now, forget about trialling, that will bring absolutely no rewards."

One female handler, after training, took her dog back to the car, put him in it and then proceeded to abuse it. Luckily, another handler saw her, stepped smartly over to her and alapped her face. We all stood by him after it was known that her boyfriend was coming. Nothing more happened.

It's one thing to see it - this is where you have to act. You can run up to the handler and shout out abuse.

Relating it on the forum is practically useless. after the event.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

If that statute was made clear and depending on the lower limit of what they define abuse/torture/assault/mishandling most of dog training for competitive sport would at some point be in a lot of trouble.




Brett Bowen said:


> I get assigned a lot of these cases, probably 4-5 within the last year. None of them have been able to file a case with the district attorney. My predecessor had several of these cases and was able to get one arrested and filed on. Part of it is the TX statute is written weird. (PC 42.10 if anyone is interested). Short version, you can cause injury to your own animal providing it wasn't done in a "torturing" type of way. Now if you cause serious bodily injury (broken bones, etc) then it's a violation.
> 
> One case, boyfriend picks up he and his girlfriend's dog (pup) they bought together, who tries to steal food from his plate, and slams him on the floor. Dog cowers away limping. Girlfriend who get's highly offended takes the dog to the vet, no serious injury, in fact the injury is a common injury for a pup (according to vet) and there would be no lasting problems. I was told a pup could slip on wet grass or a slick floor and get the same injury. The dog was fine in a couple days with some anti-inflamatory's. I wanted to arrest the moron, I think we all agree the behavior was inappropriate. Just not a violation according to the statute since it was his dog. I do know one of the local animal groups, climbed all over them though.
> 
> That was the one case I thought I was really going to be able to make an arrest, but the medical records didn't pan out. Just an example how silly our statute is written.


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> If that statute was made clear and depending on the lower limit of what they define abuse/torture/assault/mishandling most of dog training for competitive sport would at some point be in a lot of trouble.


There's where the rub is. The language is vague and how do you come up with a definition?

Another example is parents are allowed to have "Reasonable Discipline" with their kids. Well what's reasonable to me, may not be to you.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

And the lawyers get richer.....



Brett Bowen said:


> There's where the rub is. The language is vague and how do you come up with a definition?
> 
> Another example is parents are allowed to have "Reasonable Discipline" with their kids. Well what's reasonable to me, may not be to you.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Abuse is definitely a fine line....and in the eyes of the beholder. The club I was with trained in a public park for now going on 20 yrs. They've had a couple of folks call the cops because someone was "beating a dog with a stick" in the park.
Fortunately all the Park Rangers and local cops knew who we were.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> Abuse is definitely a fine line....and in the eyes of the beholder. The club I was with trained in a public park for now going on 20 yrs. They've had a couple of folks call the cops because someone was *"beating a dog with a stick"* in the park.
> Fortunately all the Park Rangers and local cops knew who we were.


that is a common one. Had that call a few times.


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## mike finn (Jan 5, 2011)

_One female handler, after training, took her dog back to the car, put him in it and then proceeded to abuse it. Luckily, another handler saw her, stepped smartly over to her and alapped her face. We all stood by him after it was known that her boyfriend was coming. Nothing more happened_.

This could be one of the dumbest things I have ever read. You think it is a good idea for a man to slap a woman in the face because he disageed with the way she disciplined a dog? I dont know where your from but that would be a quik ticket to jail in the U.S.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

mike finn said:


> _One female handler, after training, took her dog back to the car, put him in it and then proceeded to abuse it. Luckily, another handler saw her, stepped smartly over to her and alapped her face. We all stood by him after it was known that her boyfriend was coming. Nothing more happened_.
> 
> This could be one of the dumbest things I have ever read. You think it is a good idea for a man to slap a woman in the face because he disageed with the way she disciplined a dog? I dont know where your from but that would be a quik ticket to jail in the U.S.


 
Yes probably a much better option would have been for the club to take disciplinary action and worked through the problem as I would doubt it was an isolated incident and who knows what she did when she got home if she was angry after that.

The trainers at my old club would have had no compunction in going up, calling the woman out and then trying to work the issue through. Over here it would be easy to have filed an assault charge.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Is whipping a dog with a leash, abuse? just curious...


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

mike finn said:


> _One female handler, after training, took her dog back to the car, put him in it and then proceeded to abuse it. Luckily, another handler saw her, stepped smartly over to her and alapped her face. We all stood by him after it was known that her boyfriend was coming. Nothing more happened_.
> 
> This could be one of the dumbest things I have ever read. You think it is a good idea for a man to slap a woman in the face because he disageed with the way she disciplined a dog? I dont know where your from but that would be a quik ticket to jail in the U.S.


I think your answer could be one of the dumbest posts I have ever read.

You are comparing a "slap on the face" to an uncalled for assault on the dog who has no idea why he was the receiver of it?????

Why shouldn't a man slap a woman's face for assaulting an innocent dog?? If it were the other way round, would you think it ok.

Your terms:

assault a dog who has no reason why he is being assaulted.

versus

a man slapping a girl's face for assaulting a dog. Here the woman knew why she was being slapped.

Your live in another world.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

mike finn said:


> _One female handler, after training, took her dog back to the car, put him in it and then proceeded to abuse it. Luckily, another handler saw her, stepped smartly over to her and alapped her face. We all stood by him after it was known that her boyfriend was coming. Nothing more happened_.
> 
> This could be one of the dumbest things I have ever read. You think it is a good idea for a man to slap a woman in the face because he disageed with the way she disciplined a dog? I dont know where your from but that would be a quik ticket to jail in the U.S.


I left it too late to edit my above post so here it is again:

I think your answer could be one of the dumbest posts I have ever read.

You are comparing a "slap on the face" to an uncalled for assault on the dog who has no idea why he was the receiver of it?????

Why shouldn't a man slap a woman's face for assaulting an innocent dog?? If it were the other way round, would you think it ok.

Maybe not thte best way to deal with it. I guess the dog would get the raw deal of it later on. However, it you want to report dog abuse over here, you need a photograph, video or wirntesses. It's all been experienced. Most times the witnesses are not willing to speak out in court in case of being harrassed afterwards so the case just gets dropped.

Club intervention *could *have been useful but when emotions get high, sometimes when seeing a dog being assaulted, even by a female, I guess I would have tried to stop her and maybe with force. What difference does it make whether the assaulter if female or male. In dog sport there should be no differences.

*Luckily we live in a civilised country and the offence for assaulting an innocent dog would most likely be considered worse than the mere slap on the face of a witness to the scene.*


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## mike finn (Jan 5, 2011)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I left it too late to edit my above post so here it is again:
> 
> I think your answer could be one of the dumbest posts I have ever read.
> 
> ...


 A woman beater is held in very low regard were I am from. there were so many other ways to deal with it. So no,,in my world men do not hit woman. I lke to think I was raised better. What country are you from ant way? If I have to explain why you are wrong here, I can only assume you were poorly raised. Your parants should have taught you this.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Gillian Schuler said:


> You are comparing a "slap on the face" to an uncalled for assault on the dog who has no idea why he was the receiver of it?????
> 
> Why shouldn't a man slap a woman's face for assaulting an innocent dog?? If it were the other way round, would you think it ok.
> 
> ...


What was the lady doing to the dog? what was the abuse?


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Gillian Schuler said:


> You are comparing a "slap on the face" to an uncalled for assault on the dog who has no idea why he was the receiver of it?????
> 
> Why shouldn't a man slap a woman's face for assaulting an innocent dog?? If it were the other way round, would you think it ok.
> 
> ...


I guess the problem is that as much as we would like to dish out the same treatment to the human offenders, it is fraught with the same subjective judgement calls. Regardless of whether it is the man or woman giving the slapping, how do you regulate the force you slap someone in the heat of the moment with, and what if the slapped person has a medical problem, or falls and hits their head or anything like that. A big man is probably likely to slap harder and if the woman is very petite.

I think it is natural to step in and try and protect the dog, but in a club setting this is where I think clubs just have to be very strong in their rules and enforce them. This needs to be crystal clear and any infractions are reported and dealt with.

Certainly the clubs, and most of the judges and trainers that I have dealt with are pretty formiddable when it comes to these sorts of things. I remember watching someone running their dog in a "not for competition" round in the agility ring and their dog was nervous on the dog walk so they placed their hand on the dogs neck to steady the dog and got roundly told off for scruffing the dog. To date I havent ever seen anyone abusing their dogs at a trial or club, they would be most definitely taken to task if they did.

Unfortunately standing as a witness can have serious repercussions, so I understand peoples reluctance.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

What if a wimins desrved it. cant discriminate based on gender.









KIDDING


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Not sure how the laws are wherever you guys live, but if I was to slap a woman for ANY REASON, even if she hit me first, I would be going to jail (most likely) if she decided to press charges, and if a witness decided to call the police, the state could press charges even if the woman did not want to, if there was a mark on her...they wouldnt care if I thought she was being rough on her dog...in most of the US it is NOT cool for a man to put his hands on a woman.

Watch this video. from the 3:30 to 3:40 mark. I was showing this dog to my GF and her kid, and they both immediately felt sorry for the dog, I had to chuckle a little personally at their reactions. Would this be considered abusive at YOUR (anyone?) club?, or to you? To me this does not even come close to the fine line of abuse. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HA_fW5bUU4w&feature=plcp


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

The dog did jump back from it...what if it was not such a beast of a dog, but a normal sized skinnier mali, or a softer gsd? would that then be abusive?


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> What if a wimins desrved it. cant discriminate based on gender.
> 
> 
> KIDDING


I know you are kidding Peter, but again it is a subjective call that someone deserved it. I have done several of rounds of compulsory jury duty mainly in domestic violence cases against women and it chilled me what some people thought was deserving of a beating. 

The other thing that surprised me was that on the juries I sat on it was often the men that wanted to push for the guilty verdict against the offending male. I remember one case where we couldnt pass a guilty verdict because the evidence had been so poorly put together, but a couple of the men kept us sitting in the jury room for a couple of hours because they wanted to make the offender sweat on the verdict.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Sara Waters said:


> I know you are kidding Peter, but again it is a subjective call that someone deserved it. I have done several of rounds of compulsory jury duty mainly in domestic violence cases against women and it chilled me what some people thought was deserving of a beating.
> 
> The other thing that surprised me was that on the juries I sat on it was often the men that wanted to push for the guilty verdict against the offending male. I remember one case where we couldnt pass a guilty verdict because the evidence had been so poorly put together, but a couple of the men kept us sitting in the jury room for a couple of hours because they wanted to make the offender sweat on the verdict.


yeah here it is pretty much a cardinal rule for most people, men dont hit women.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Like you never hit a guy with glasses or braces. Rules folks from different cultures just come up with. See, people are more the same than different.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> The dog did jump back from it...what if it was not such a beast of a dog, but a normal sized skinnier mali, or a softer gsd? would that then be abusive?


I had a look and it certainly is a beast of a dog. I know nothing about this sport, but at first glance I wouldnt have thought it abusive in that particular context as the person was shielding the brunt of it and the dog had the option of staying back from it. But then I dont know how the dog is trained. If it was say regularly beaten with the lead to control it in training in a situation where it couldnt escape, then I would think that was abusive.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I left it too late to edit my above post so here it is again:
> 
> I think your answer could be one of the dumbest posts I have ever read.
> 
> ...


So say, the woman decided to file charges alleging assault/battery. As a defense, can the guy allege that he felt she was abusing an animal--in your country? In trying to stop her from doing what she was doing--why a slap on the face. If she's in a car with the dog, how did he accomplish that? Open the car door? Reach through the window? Why not grab her arms/hands. Had she mentally checked out? 

Terrasita


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> Is whipping a dog with a leash, abuse? just curious...


Well I wouldnt whip any of mine with a leash. Again it is very subjective. If you lose your temper and lay into the dog with a leash with intentions to really hurt the animal that is abuse in my book.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

You get into the same questions with kids and whippings with objects--discipline or abuse? Of course I never saw the point in "whipping" kids either. A swat on the behind up to a certain age--sure.

T


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> So say, the woman decided to file charges alleging assault/battery. As a defense, can the guy allege that he felt she was abusing an animal--in your country? In trying to stop her from doing what she was doing--why a slap on the face. If she's in a car with the dog, how did he accomplish that? Open the car door? Reach through the window? Why not grab her arms/hands. Had she mentally checked out?
> 
> Terrasita


The dog was in the back of the car in the open kennel. The woman had been training it and was frustrated with the results so she left the training field and vent her frustration on it assuming she was out of sight. The dog had not given any cause for the attack. The other handler saw her and was furious at seeing her laying into the dog.

He wouldn't have gone to jail - there were no witnesses so it was her word against his. She then drove off and returned later with her boyfriend. I don't know what transpired between the three of them but there was no violence and she and her boyfriend left.

Both the woman and her boyfriend were bigger than the other handler. 

Seriously, what would you think if a female handler had slapped her? It enrages most of us to see defenceless dogs being beaten and maybe he could have handled it better but I can't remember see a mark on her face when she arrived the second time.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Gillian Schuler said:


> The dog was in the back of the car in the open kennel. The woman had been training it and was frustrated with the results so she left the training field and vent her frustration on it assuming she was out of sight. The dog had not given any cause for the attack. The other handler saw her and was furious at seeing her laying into the dog.
> 
> He wouldn't have gone to jail - there were no witnesses so it was her word against his. She then drove off and returned later with her boyfriend. I don't know what transpired between the three of them but there was no violence and she and her boyfriend left.
> 
> ...


I suspect any kind of man woman slapping combination could result in charges but I would expect that it is less acceptable for a man to slap a woman than a man to slap another man or a woman to slap another woman, mainly because men are on average stronger than women and it is culturally less acceptable. 

Really no matter how frustrated we get with our dogs at training, it is never an excuse for attacking your dog with violent force. 

I personally think it should be a matter for the club and should be followed up on. The woman needs to be held accountable for her actions by other members in a non slapping type of way, despite the urge to slap her. The problem of her frustration with her dog is probably not going to go away anytime soon and is most likely a training issue.


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## mike finn (Jan 5, 2011)

Joby Becker said:


> Not sure how the laws are wherever you guys live, but if I was to slap a woman for ANY REASON, even if she hit me first, I would be going to jail (most likely) if she decided to press charges, and if a witness decided to call the police, the state could press charges even if the woman did not want to, if there was a mark on her...they wouldnt care if I thought she was being rough on her dog...in most of the US it is NOT cool for a man to put his hands on a woman.
> 
> Watch this video. from the 3:30 to 3:40 mark. I was showing this dog to my GF and her kid, and they both immediately felt sorry for the dog, I had to chuckle a little personally at their reactions. Would this be considered abusive at YOUR (anyone?) club?, or to you? To me this does not even come close to the fine line of abuse.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HA_fW5bUU4w&feature=plcp


You made some good points joby. Also, looking at this video I dont think it was abusin=ve at all. Thats a pretty hard dog and it hardly seemed to notice. I did like that dog though. I usually mind my own business when it comes to other peoples dogs, unless it is something really extreme. 
Rick Smith gave an example earlier about a guy he confronted in the park who was jerking his pup around. At one time, almost every one I knew who trains dogs did it like that. I have confronted some one that was out of control before, but they were not training ,they were just going nuts.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

mike finn said:


> You made some good points joby. Also, looking at this video I dont think it was abusin=ve at all. Thats a pretty hard dog and it hardly seemed to notice. I did like that dog though. I usually mind my own business when it comes to other peoples dogs, unless it is something really extreme.
> Rick Smith gave an example earlier about a guy he confronted in the park who was jerking his pup around. At one time, almost every one I knew who trains dogs did it like that. I have confronted some one that was out of control before, but they were not training ,they were just going nuts.


Anyone confronts me and tries to grab the leash is going to probably get bitten by the very dog he is trying to save from me, for the last 20 or so years, even from probably over 50% of the pups, if they were 6-7 months or older.

Is kicking a dog abusive? what about punching it in the head? slapping its rear? slapping its muzzle? correcting it so it flies through the air? hangin it? frying it with a collar? It is all subjective, to me. Is anger the component that makes the difference? repeated things? pattern of overall treatment? overall attitude? who knows...

That is why I was curious to hear exactly what was going on, so I could decide in my mind how I felt about it, all I heard so far was a vague description from a witness of "over the line" behavior and a non-witness second hand vague account of someone "laying into a dog" in a crate out of anger. 

I remember being at my crippled friends house once, and the mother of someone that came over to watch some training actually opened a dogs crate and took off his prong collar and his studded leather collar, because she said it was cruel to have the collars on the dog, it was dangerous when he was crated, and the dog didnt need them. 

My friend can only use one hand, his left arm is dead from having a stroke, it was a strong dog, almost too strong for him, not overly friendly and highly dog aggressive, that is why he kept the collars on the dog, he could not put the collars on without assistance from someone. I was the only one there that would help him get the collars back on, and I did all the PP work for the dog, and the dog did not really like me all that much, that was real fun...this is the dog, 90 lbs. APBT X Doberman. The dogs name is actually Cocotaso, which is Spanish and roughly translates to "smack to the head" or "lump on the head". 



















The same lady called the police and animal control on us after she got in her car and blasted off the property, because she was horrified when she saw us "shackling" a dog up to a tree, and beating it with a stick... 

Although it did not happen that day, the guy does resort to some physical actions if some of his dogs get unruly with him, if he does not have a leash on them. For him to be able to snap a leash on a dog, it has to lay sit or lay down, and remain still for him to use one hand to snap the leash on, often taking a while.. his left leg is pretty much dead too, so he cannot move fast to accomplish anything... 

I dont judge him if I see him whack a dog with a leash, even if he is angry at the time, because he is crippled, likes strong drivey dogs, and that is how he disciplines the dogs, and if works for him...

I would have liked to hear how that lady that day told the story to the cops, AC, and her friends, about the abuse that she witnessed...

Not saying that what is going on in this thread IS NOT abusive, but abuse is quite a subjective topic, like was said, it is a fine line, and that line is variable in my mind, from person to person. One person's methods can be another person's abuse...


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> ...Not saying that what is going on in this thread IS NOT abusive, but abuse is quite a subjective topic, like was said, it is a fine line, and that line is variable in my mind, from person to person. One person's methods can be another person's abuse...



Good point, Joby. Another example would be your tracking thread. Some people think forced tracking is cruel, so I guess any force training is abusive in their eyes.

Like you said, "one person's methods can be another person's abuse"


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Any correction or physical activity that goes above and beyond getting compliance from the dog could be termed abuse.That could be relative to the individual dog. 
The trainers mindset has a lot to do with it also. 
Anger, impatience, frustration or just being an ahole can be a big factor. Frustration has brought out some unwanted behaviors in me that I've not been proud of. Marker training has been huge help for me in that dept.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Bob Scott said:


> Anger, impatience, frustration or just being an ahole can be a big factor. Frustration has brought out some unwanted behaviors in me that I've not been proud of. Marker training has been huge help for me in that dept.


I think most people have experienced this. Personally I have come to the realisation that these emotions are best left out of dog training. If I start going down that track with a dog that I am training I know it is time to re evaluate how I am working with that dog. 

I work with Border collies, kelpie and cattle dog types and although these dogs can be super high drive and in the case of cattle dogs, quite stubborn, there really is no excuse with these types of breeds to be using heavy force, training type collars or anything else to get compliance. 

These are dogs that are well within my ability to train and control without excessive force and I know that. Once I have to resort to kicking or punching a dog in the head or anything else of that nature or using say an e collar just to be able keep control of a dog I know I either have the wrong breed for me or my training sucks. Note I am not criticising e collars here because in the right hands and use correctly they are probably a valuable tool, just not for me or my dogs or used as the only method to keep control of a dog and a substitiute for any type of training, which is how I have observed them being used on occassion.

I dont know what forced tracking is, I guess similar to a forced retrieve? I dont neccessarily think it is cruel, just not how I would enjoy working with a dog, when I think there are other options.


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