# ? on tugging with your dog



## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

When people use a tug with their dog are you just playing with your dog or using it as a reward? I don't normally pay much attention to training talk on here so I really don't know what your doing. Do you use it with low drive dog to create more drive? Thanks


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

I use it for high drive dogs as a reward


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

Hunter Allred said:


> I use it for high drive dogs as a reward


Why do you use it instead of a ball? I see ?'s about how to tug. Do it this way do it that way. Isn't it easier to just drop a ball? Or is it the playing with the dog you do it for?


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

jamie lind said:


> Why do you use it instead of a ball? I see ?'s about how to tug. Do it this way do it that way. Isn't it easier to just drop a ball? Or is it the playing with the dog you do it for?


When playing tug the reward is the interaction with the handler not necessarily the object. Make sense? But it also depends on the dog too, I have 3 and they are all a little different. One wants to tug, but is just as happy chasing a ball. One is mainly wants the interaction with me. The other is content to carry around whatever in her mouth showing it to everyone.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

jamie lind said:


> Why do you use it instead of a ball? I see ?'s about how to tug. Do it this way do it that way. Isn't it easier to just drop a ball? Or is it the playing with the dog you do it for?


You can drop a tug also. I use balls sometimes. Often use a bite pillow. Sometimes I use "destructosaurus"
http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd393/hunterisgreat/IMG_0018_zps049d9c46.jpg

It is about interaction as said above. Just giving it is a small reward. When they really perform I play tug with them it's proportional to the performance


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

Got it. Its how you play with your dog. Thanks


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

jamie lind said:


> Got it. Its how you play with your dog. Thanks


The goal is the interaction with me to be the reward, not a battle to get me out of the way to have the toy


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

Hunter Allred said:


> The goal is the interaction with me to be the reward, not a battle to get me out of the way to have the toy


So you battle with him over the toy? Doesn't make sense to me.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

jamie lind said:


> So you battle with him over the toy? Doesn't make sense to me.


No I don't.... the goal is for the dog to be rewarded by my interaction, not the toy. I don't want compliance to be something the dog does to get me out of the picture so they can have the toy


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

fantastic question. 

that is currently stumping me.


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

I grew up with 2 brothers and a mean sister. I found that play fighting usually ended up real fighting and only one person ended up having fun. That's why this confuses me so badly


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Playing with me is the reward, the tug, ball, whatever, is a big part of that game/reward. There should be no conflict, fighting is not part of it.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Unless the dog has a strong desire/instinct to retrieve/return the ball you are no longer needed once it has the ball. The game of tug keeps you in that equation.
The game of tug also lets you continue getting behaviors quicker instead of waiting for the dog to return the ball. 
That being said, what is more value to the dog is a big part of what you use for reward.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Bob Scott said:


> Unless the dog has a strong desire/instinct to retrieve/return the ball you are no longer needed once it has the ball. The game of tug keeps you in that equation.
> The game of tug also lets you continue getting behaviors quicker instead of waiting for the dog to return the ball.
> That being said, what is more value to the dog is a big part of what you use for reward.


Lol my male has always made it easy. This was at a bar with a piece of bark. Don't believe my friend was even aware he was involved in this game
http://youtu.be/qdzMl1vxrKY


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

If the dog enjoys to tug and fighting with you over it, they pick the reward so it's okay. It's my job not to let conflict enter the picture when I am ready to out. out means the fight stops and the dog lets go. A lot of behaviors transfer from the tug to the bite work without much trouble. Just keep it clear to the dog and when you get to outs in bite work it is much less trouble for the dog in regards to conflict. 

Picture a dog that is conflicted while fighting, but taught through the use of two tugs that once the fight ceases, he has to let that one go and fight the next one in your hands. which turns into releasing the one in your hands when it goes dead for a re-bite. Which in turn is the foundation for a dog learning an out on a man brings more fight (reward) where there is potential for more conflict with the man.

The dog gets to pick what's fun just like you and your siblings. 



jamie lind said:


> I grew up with 2 brothers and a mean sister. I found that play fighting usually ended up real fighting and only one person ended up having fun. That's why this confuses me so badly


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

Bob Scott;41904
The game of tug also lets you continue getting behaviors quicker instead of waiting for the dog to return the ball.[/QUOTE said:


> How is outing off a tug faster than outing a ball?


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

Dave Colborn said:


> If the dog enjoys to tug and fighting with you over it, they pick the reward so it's okay. It's my job not to let conflict enter the picture when I am ready to out. out means the fight stops and the dog lets go. A lot of behaviors transfer from the tug to the bite work without much trouble. Just keep it clear to the dog and when you get to outs in bite work it is much less trouble for the dog in regards to conflict.
> 
> Picture a dog that is conflicted while fighting, but taught through the use of two tugs that once the fight ceases, he has to let that one go and fight the next one in your hands. which turns into releasing the one in your hands when it goes dead for a re-bite. Which in turn is the foundation for a dog learning an out on a man brings more fight (reward) where there is potential for more conflict with the man.
> 
> The dog gets to pick what's fun just like you and your siblings.


So you think there is conflict on the tug?


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

There is potential for conflict everywhere when training a dog. My job is to prevent it so it never materializes. Ball, tug, bitesuit. If the dog doesn't understand how to make his world do what he wants, he can get frustrated. 

If you start early teaching the dog that the fight over a toy as a beginning and an end, you can use that later on in training when working with a man, when it is encouraged to bite near a man and not let go. IE it is okay to fight me for it now (if the dog enjoys it) and when I say out, the fight is over. Same transfers over to the man. You may look at this as a dog just performing a biting behavior, and not a fight or the dog being in conflict with the decoy. I see it as the sparring partner at some time in the dogs life turns serious. Even when that happens, I want an unconflicted out. Baby steps get you there, not avoiding fighting with the dog.


jamie lind said:


> So you think there is conflict on the tug?


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## Mircea Hemu-Ha (Nov 24, 2009)

jamie lind said:


> I grew up with 2 brothers and a mean sister. I found that play fighting usually ended up real fighting and only one person ended up having fun. That's why this confuses me so badly


Your goal is not to humiliate the dog, or to do everything you can to win, but basically to play with him. Some will enjoy a very robust play, others will be more shy towards you, and it's not correlated to how they would fight a man in a suite/sleeve.
If you show most young dogs how strong you really are compared to them, they will give up tugging or just become dull, as they see little point in trying anything else. Respond to what the dog does, let him move you when he tugs really hard.

It depends on the dog, but usually the first thing i want to see is the dog bringing the tug back to me once i let go of it, before he even has an out. If he does this, i know the fight is what he wants, the interaction. Basically, the dog is always on a long line, i tug a little bit with him, let go of the tug, run away and encourage the dog to come to me. When he does, i don't go for the tug, i let the dog come close enough so that i can reach for the tug without any obvious movement towards him (i mark before i get it). This is because some dogs are very possessive and won't like it if you reach to steal their toy, at least not in the beginning.
Once i have it, i tug for 2-3 seconds, let go and go back into it again. Once the dog brings the toy to me and is interested in playing, i start working on the out.

Some possessive dogs without great retrieve may want to keep the ball, as they see no point in giving it up again. Same dog may see the tug differently, if he likes to tug, so he may be more willing to give up the tug expecting the fight, than to give up the ball. He may even keep the ball away from you, but readily bring the tug. I had a female like that. Obviously everything gets better with training, i'm speaking of a "raw" dog.

Some dogs enjoy the fight, some enjoy possessing the toy, others retrieving it. I try to teach the dog to be motivated by all 3, but ultimately i mostly do what makes him feel good. Your goal is to have a valid reward, whatever that may be, not to have a specific one that the dog may not enjoy enough.

Eidt: +1 to what Dave Colborn said.


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

Mircea Hemu-Ha said:


> Your goal is not to humiliate the dog, or to do everything you can to win, but basically to play with him. Some will enjoy a very robust play, others will be more shy towards you, and it's not correlated to how they would fight a man in a suite/sleeve.
> If you show most young dogs how strong you really are compared to them, they will give up tugging or just become dull, as they see little point in trying anything else. Respond to what the dog does, let him move you when he tugs really hard.
> 
> It depends on the dog, but usually the first thing i want to see is the dog bringing the tug back to me once i let go of it, before he even has an out. If he does this, i know the fight is what he wants, the interaction. Basically, the dog is always on a long line, i tug a little bit with him, let go of the tug, run away and encourage the dog to come to me. When he does, i don't go for the tug, i let the dog come close enough so that i can reach for the tug without any obvious movement towards him (i mark before i get it). This is because some dogs are very possessive and won't like it if you reach to steal their toy, at least not in the beginning.
> ...


Thanks for the response. I'm not interested in playing tug with my dog. I'm just wondering why others do.


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## Meg O'Donovan (Aug 20, 2012)

Why do you have no interest in playing tug with your dog? Is your dog interested in playing tug?

My pup tugs really, really hard. I have to pause every minute or get her to out, or she ramps up into an altered state. It is good that she likes to tug, because this is the way we've been taught to reward for searches. She definitely loves it. She loves ball and retrieves well and willingly, but she loves tug oh so much more. She seems to go into a zone. What kind of chemicals are released in her brain when she is tugging? 

When we first started tugging, she was sloppy and nicked my hands. Now that she is maturing, she controls her mouth better. She seems also to use the technique of torque to try to get possession. When I didn't know her so well and didn't yet trust her, tug was not as much fun as it is now.


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

I think all dogs want to be king. Why create conflict with a dog, show weakness even, as a reward? Of course you do it with a decoy. But doing it with the handler, why? I see people wrestling around with their dog, I catch myself doing it. Its not smart. Sure most dogs its more than likely never going to be a problem. But I really don't like that kind of dog, a.nd I think most working dog shouldn't be that way. Then again maybe I'm completely wrong. also maybe this is something everyone knows and I'm just a little slow getting it. Anyways I see something bright and shiny in the distance so no response is needed for me.


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

I've heard this before, that the handler should never smack the dog while tugging with it cuz it creates whatever. 

I don't think all dogs want to be king. 

I guess I don't really have much to say, except you've got to be smart enough to interact correctly with the dog in front of you. 

Laura


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

jamie lind said:


> How is outing off a tug faster than outing a ball?



Getting "behaviors" faster. Not necessarily the out itself but, for me, the tug IS faster for the out simply because you are in possession as much as the dog.
With the ball, the dog is in control because it has total possession of it. 
So many different ways of doing things. The tug is what I prefer.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

I think it's okay if you say "smacka, smacka smacka....smacka baaaaaaby" when you do it. Can't think of the name of the trainer, but it's a funny video.

I really like the last line of your post, Laura. That one piece of training advice is priceless.



Laura Bollschweiler said:


> I've heard this before, that the handler should never smack the dog while tugging with it cuz it creates whatever.
> 
> I don't think all dogs want to be king.
> 
> ...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Dave Colborn said:


> I think it's okay if you say "smacka, smacka smacka....smacka baaaaaaby" when you do it. Can't think of the name of the trainer, but it's a funny video.
> 
> I really like the last line of your post, Laura. That one piece of training advice is priceless.


'that is funny for sure.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzqs54qMgQA


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## Peter Cho (Apr 21, 2010)

think of any play as training time. at all times the dog is learning. a tug is a tool. tool to teach..........not just throw around and "play" with.

The purpose of the tug is to imprint specific behaviours to get it ready for bitework. Until the technique has been learned on the tug, you cannot go to the sleeve or suit. 

You teach.....dog always initiate bark (the dog creates movement, dog is the initiator of all action, this is absolutely crutial), hold, carry, out, no chewing, settle after the bite, must hold until told to out, pulling with good grips........and how to WIN the tug!!!!
The above IS play for the dog. When done right, the dog is more driven since HE is in control of the action. 

The small tug is used as a reward to increase the incident of desired behavior. In conjunction with the e collar, this would GREATLY speed up the desired action. Again, this is all part of play. During play, you teach that slow action is not acceptable and speed of execution is greatly greatly greatly rewarded. 

LOL, actually, all OB is play...........with consequences the dog has *control *over.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Peter Cho said:


> think of any play as training time. at all times the dog is learning. a tug is a tool. tool to teach..........not just throw around and "play" with.
> 
> *The purpose of the tug is to imprint specific behaviours to get it ready for bitework. Until the technique has been learned on the tug, you cannot go to the sleeve or suit. *
> 
> ...


nice post Peter, mostly agree, except with bolded statement.

it is not a requirement for a dog to be worked on a tug, prior to using a sleeve or suit, and many people actually do exactly what you are saying they cannot do.


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## Peter Cho (Apr 21, 2010)

tug work is foundation technique used from puppihood and to reinforce behaviours already taught. Securing behaviors.

Focus on foundation separates excellent trainers and non trainers.

Going to suit or sleeve without foundation learned on tug? Never.

If all you want to do is hillbilly stuff on the post and have no "out", then ok. That is silly. 

Drive of a dog is only as good as its technique will allow. No technique (foundation) drive is useless.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Peter Cho said:


> tug work is foundation technique used from puppihood and to reinforce behaviours already taught. Securing behaviors.
> 
> Focus on foundation separates excellent trainers and non trainers.
> 
> ...


Ehmmm... how about learning a foundation on the sleeve or suit? Or would this be impossible in your eyes?


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## Meg O'Donovan (Aug 20, 2012)

Jamie, I hope you can see by this video how much my dog enjoys the tug game, and maybe yours would too. We only do it for fun in the backyard. Out of the yard I keep it as a reward for when she finds people. Her job opportunities are working with her nose, not her teeth. I haven't viewed any of the videos on "how to tug", so some may judge this "hillbilly" technique.

I actually like that word, hillbilly. I define it as self-reliant and tough. My grandmother was from Hundred, West Va, and she was a hillbilly who saw the world, working as an operating room nurse in far-off places from Peru to the Yukon in the late 1920s through to WWII with the Americans in Darwin, Australia. Her hillbilly ability to adapt and improvise made her useful to the local cultures in which she worked.

*******

Back to my dog; when she is waiting to resume tugging, she does two things (but not always): licks her nose quickly (she does that in this video), and with her eyes focused on the tug, her tongue flicks like a snake (not out of her mouth). The latter looks pretty weird. If any one has insights on such body language, I'd be interested to hear your ideas.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5erYg3055c

If the WDF oldtimers see that I'm doing anything that could hurt my dog, let me know. My goal is positive interaction, with a modicum of OB and self-control. I'm subdued because otherwise she ramps up and she is still learning how to "self-regulate" her arousal levels. I didn't start tugging with her until March 2013. She'll be two years old this month. I've had her for a year.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Peter Cho said:


> tug work is foundation technique used from puppihood and to reinforce behaviours already taught. Securing behaviors.
> 
> Focus on foundation separates excellent trainers and non trainers.
> 
> ...



Peter

your comments are based in ignorance I will have to assume, since I wont go so far as to call them condescending again, no matter how they read..

there are plenty of dogs that see a sleeve or suit, long before they ever see a tug, others that only see a tug for teaching out off of the real equipment, and others that never see a tug. They do make these these things called puppy sleeves, as well as pillows, wedges and cuffs.

No one ever said anything about hillbillies, or dogs that are lacking a foundation or technique, or dogs without an out, or dogs worked on a post.

The tug foundation is not a necessary tool to use for a foundation on a dog, or as a gauge of a non-trainer and an excellent trainer, neither is a post.


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

I started this thread as a bit of a goof. But I really was hoping it would get talked about a bit. Everytime someone talks about working their own dog in bitework or using an ecollar they get told dont try it on your own or don't watch a video to learn it. Yet tug work people are told how to do it in a thread or watch this video. My guess is more people screw up their dog by playing tug than any other tool. I've never used a tug with my dog. He never even saw a ball until around 9 months old. If your going to use a tug learn from someone that does it not from a video or on the internet. The same as everything else.


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## Peter Cho (Apr 21, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> Peter
> 
> your comments are based in ignorance I will have to assume, since I wont go so far as to call them condescending again, no matter how they read..
> 
> ...


Hmmm. Ignorance. ... Well, I have not seen everything but I have seen really crappy training that produces nothing in PP dogs, patrol dogs, competition dogs.

We obviously train completely differently. All I can say is , that is good.

But at the end of the day, like Bellon says, you are going to have to prove your program in competition to gauge the progress.

Good luck to you. 

Ps. Condescending? Me? LOL, dude, I don't care what people do. But I do like to direct people the right way because once I was a novice looking for direction. That is why I always say learn from a club, join IPO or ring. Learn proper skills. Then do whatever you want. But compete. Good or bad. Compete. Because it WILL force you to be better than you are today and help improve the image of biting sports/working dogs. And dog training is all about being a better handler/decoy/helper/spotter.


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## Peter Cho (Apr 21, 2010)

jamie lind said:


> I started this thread as a bit of a goof. But I really was hoping it would get talked about a bit. Everytime someone talks about working their own dog in bitework or using an ecollar they get told dont try it on your own or don't watch a video to learn it. Yet tug work people are told how to do it in a thread or watch this video. My guess is more people screw up their dog by playing tug than any other tool. I've never used a tug with my dog. He never even saw a ball until around 9 months old. If your going to use a tug learn from someone that does it not from a video or on the internet. The same as everything else.


You sir are a smart guy!
People think tug work is "easy".
It is very difficult to master for a novice.
It teaches SO much. Good or BAD.
Hmm chews on tug? So who created it? Hmmm I wonder why my dog shifts and regrips all the time. 

Again, I say....join a club. Get some foundation to your handler skills. Do it right.


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

Peter Cho said:


> You sir are a smart guy.


Smart enough to realize I don't know anything about "training" a dog. And I should be fine with handling one. And leave the training to people that knowe what thery are doing.


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## Noel Long (Mar 13, 2013)

Mircea Hemu-Ha said:


> Some dogs enjoy the fight, some enjoy possessing the toy, others retrieving it. I try to teach the dog to be motivated by all 3, but ultimately i mostly do what makes him feel good. Your goal is to have a valid reward, whatever that may be, not to have a specific one that the dog may not enjoy enough.


How do you manage a session with a dog whose motivation is to possess the tug?


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Noel Long said:


> How do you manage a session with a dog whose motivation is to possess the tug?


Teach an out and the dog can possess it when you say he can possess


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## Mircea Hemu-Ha (Nov 24, 2009)

Obviously, you need a good out and to make sure the dog won't play keep away with the toy.

The reward is winning the toy itself, then i ask for it back and we start again. If the dog did something really well, i'd just let him take it, maybe let him keep it for a while, otherwise i prefer to make him win it by tugging. This also depends a lot on the work you do, a ipo dog that chews may be reinforced to do it this way.

Something i did with a really possessive dog was to let her have the toy, then grab it, pull gently on it, let it go and start again, while the dog stood still, so it wasn't a tug session (her grip is hard without chewing, that's why i tried it, i knew she wouldn't regrip or something).
The dog really liked this, seeing me apparently fail to steal the toy from her, but i only did this once i had good control of her outs and usually when ending the session.
The result was that she became even more possessive than before, but also my overall control improved and she became more motivated.


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