# "Jealous" dog?



## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

Griffin is my 5 yr old SAR dog (disaster and wilderness) and I got Remus (now 6 months old) recently. I had the mother here and whelped the litter. I noticed that when the bitch was here, Griffin deferred to her quite a bit. He is a pretty neutral dog anyway, but he basically would not engage me or play if she was around. I passed it off to her being a strong bitch.

Remus is a nice and high drive guy, probably going to be more dominant than Griffin, but not a bully or anything. Griffin has kicked his heinie in play. Remus will back off in the moment, but always comes back to play. 

Much of the time at home especially when we go outside, Griffin is a pathetic, shut down, depressed dog. He will not play with me in the yard. Doesnt want to go out in the yard (fenced in) and will not play with any of the toys in the yard (I have 3-4 jolly balls). If I call him outside, I get ears back, head low, hunched back avoidance. If I ask him to play with me, he comes to heel looking pathetic and tries to stick to my side if I try to get him moving. Sometimes I can work him out if it and get him drivey for the ball, but sometimes he is just a lump and looks like I've been beating him for days.

He gets fed first, let out first, attention first etc. He is still acting like a lump after 4 months and it is actually starting to tick me off--which absolutely doesnt help! I cant even speak sharply to my kids with out him sinking to the floor. Today I decided to put him in a crate and see if some confinement might make him perkier....not working so far. I am not sure if I should totally ignore this and he will come around when he is ready, or if I should do something. Anyone deal with this before??

He still works fine and is actually been really strong and happy working (Remus comes to training too). It is just at home there is a problem.

Thanks


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Before the bitch was there and you whelped the litter, was he the same way?


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## Becky Shilling (Jul 11, 2006)

I would do a complete medical work-up as a place to start.


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## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

I agree. Jealousy is typically an anthropomorphic idea that we use to cover up a host of other issues.

Do a medical check up (including blood work). Consider instituting a NILIF free program and I would severely cut down the off lead play time with the puppy.

You know the dog better than us but remember that puppies play harder, faster, and are more fun than people. If you are trying to compete for attention you will lose. Why would she be excited to play or work for you when she gets to play rough with the pup in a bit for free?


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Becky Shilling said:


> I would do a complete medical work-up as a place to start.


I was going to suggest this as well but thought I would ask if he was the same way before the litter. 

My Dutch will want to work even if he is "off" (only happened once), and that made me take him in and get a full physical and work up done on him. Nothing showed and he is now retired due to seizures that we cannot really diagnose....they just happen.


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

He was fine before the bitch. When she got here and we were introducing them, they got in a tiff over a ball (didnt even know one was in the yard, but she found it) and she tagged him on the foot and he backed off. When she and the pups left (breeder got them back at 6 weeks and then I got Remus back at 8weeks), he was fine again. When Remus was little, Griff was fine. 

We just got back from a hike and Griff spent much of the time kicking Remus's butt (I am able to let them off leash to romp) and acting fine. He sulked his way out of the house and then perked up as soon as he realized we were going some where and bounced his way to the car. 

This seems to be an at home phenomena. He is fine when I take him for a walk-with or without Remus. There are times at home when he is fine and happy to play, then he gets this look on his face like he was just 'bad' and shuts down. 

It is time for his yearly blood check and he gets the works. Even when he had lyme's though he has never acted affected in any way. He is a high energy, high drive and very pushy guy. He is not off his food and devours treats as usual. While I dont believe dogs get jealous, I do believe he is affected by the pup.

Dont know if this is relevant or not, but Griff is a bit of an odd duck with baby animals. He is extremely maternal and loves puppies and is unusually gentle with human kids. Also, when we got kittens 2 years ago, he allowed one of them to 'nurse' on him.....I had to wean a kitten off of a male dog......strange!


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Of course dogs get jealous. You see it all the time. Sounds like Griff is a pussy cat and the pups is getting old enough to where Griff is sensing that he is going to be the low dog on the totem pole. He is beating the pup up, so to speak, while he is still small enough for him to do it.


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## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

Sounds like we are making huge guesses here. 

Writing everything off as dominance is super easy isn't it? Lets us wash our hands of any possible training issues.


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## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

Don,

What you said is the older dog has some magical ability to sense that the younger dog is going to be higher up on the "totem pole" and so is getting his licks in while he still can. I hope you can see how ridiculously anthropomorphic that sounds.

You say things like "you see it all the time". You see what all the time? What do dogs do that is jealousy that can not be attributed to a more plausible reason than an intangible emotion?

I guess I get steamed because it sounds like we are using dominance as an excuse. Maybe the little dog will be "dominant". Maybe dogs can magically sense that young puppies will one day be "dominant". Who cares?

If someone comes to me and says "My dog jumps on the table for scraps" I don't say "Well it sounds like your dog is genetically hungry. He Just doing what scavengers do". I help them fix the problem.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Actually Ben, I think it is a "lack of" in this case. Other than that, you've read to many books. Male dogs whole lives revolve around dominance. Till you understand that, I just can't help you. So, you stated your case, I stated mine. I told you in the last thread that it is pointless for me to debate with you.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

The dog had a pack order that was in his favor, and now it is all screwed up. What a great idea to take them for a walk so he can suppress your little one the whole time. LOL

This is another reason to cull.


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## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> The dog had a pack order that was in his favor, and now it is all screwed up. What a great idea to take them for a walk so he can suppress your little one the whole time. LOL
> 
> This is another reason to cull.


Maybe a dumb question, but do you think an older dog dominating a pup will have repercussions on the pup's working ability or character later on?


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

Oh chill Jeff, Let me rephrase: Griffin played like a real dog instead of the repressed wuss he is acting like at home. Yes they are establishing pack order, and I am assuming, due to Griff not being a dominant dog, the pup will eventually be higher up on the doggy food chain. But for now, he still out weighs the pup--but pup is tougher. Neither dog will ever be allowed to beat the other up. Feel better?


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

Adam, 

I dont think Griffin is dominating the pup. They are both really nice dogs. Griffin is very neutral, but does love to play hard. Puppy also loves to play hard and seems to take no offense to Griffin. If I think Griffin is too much I call him away. I do the same if the pup ramps up too much for Griffin.

So far the puppy is working very nicely, he is working towards being a cadaver dog.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Jennifer, I know people ask for videos all the time but maybe one would help folks see what's really going on here. I cannot tell you the number of times I've been surprised by what I've seen when presented with a video because of a preconceived notion I developed from the description alone.

Who knows why your dog is acting like a weirdo. I think some dogs are just freaks (a little off) that way. Sure there could be a very logical explanation for it and the fact that he has peaks and valleys of this behavior leads me to believe something not entirely health related is driving it. Could be that maybe there's interactions that take place with the puppy present that is freaking him out. I mean, interactions that do not occur when it's just the two of you. By that I also mean, interactions that involve you and the younger dog that for some reason he is highly sensitive to or is anticipating a negative experience with.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Like I said, there are legit reasons to cull.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I think there is a big difference between dominating a pup and teaching it dog manners. 
I don't have a problem with it myself as long as the older dog isn't abusing the pup.
Not necessarily what some dog folks want either way.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Maybe a dumb question, but do you think an older dog dominating a pup will have repercussions on the pup's working ability or character later on?

Of course. I could post a video of what it is supposed to look like. I take my dogs out for a run, and they run. They do not bother the little one, that is bullshit insecurity. He bounces off them and they go about their business. The only one that plays with him is the other young dog, Esko, and even then, he does not play hard. 

I cannot even imaging keeping a dog that has a meltdown because a pup shows up at the house. Good thing what he is looking for is already dead.


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## Sanda Stankovic (Jan 10, 2009)

So I have a story about a jealous dog who is otherwise quite placid and very easy going dog. He is the older one, female came along later, they always got along with each other, no issues untill I started spending more time with her training, than I used to. I would still give him a lot of attention but apparently, things have changed. I was also taking her to the local club on Sundays for training and he would stay home. Even though he would get a walk after we got back home, every time there was an issue between them (ie. they would get into a 'fight') it would be on Sundays. Once I started taking him to ob classes on Sundays as well, problem was solved... I would have never thought in a million years that dogs could get jealous but for him the dynamics have changed dramatically cos he wasnt going to the class and she was.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Like I said, there are legit reasons to cull.


Yes sir. No argument from me on that. 

Jennifer, in Alaska our winters are real long so sometimes my dogs spend a bit more time indoors than I like. I am a firm believer in yard time for a dog, sometimes it's alone others with whoever I have here. I saw that you mentioned that he doesn't like to go out in the yard for some reason but maybe a few hours outside requiring him to just hang out and be a dog might light a fire. My personal experience with this is it can bey very helpful. Unless the dog sits at the back door pawing to get back in or barks incessantly. Hopefully that's not the case here.

Is he shutting down during a game of tug or in anticipation of such? Maybe he's got a bum tooth? Is he sensitive to rough play?

Course the nursing thing makes me think he's just a bit of an odd duck. :-k

Without the benefit of others being able to see this behavior I could see a lot of maybe, maybe, maybe...


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

Hi Sandra, Griff is a very patient and good with Remus. Their dynamic in general is very good and appropriate. The last 2 times we have walked together off leash, I didnt bring the balls I normally have--I got tired of dealing with 2 dogs and 2 balls. Normally he carries his ball the whole walk (when I am not throwing it for him) and ignores the pup. Noticed that without the ball he wants to interact with Remus more. So will try having a ball or 2 again but not throwing (too much bending down and throwing, not enough walking for me)

His shutting down has been very surprising. He is not a wussy dog. He is somewhat handler sensitive and this almost seems like a gross exaggeration of it--He seems to think that he needs to be very focused on me and that every thing I do is a cue that he has done something wrong (when he is in this mood). Remus is definately getting quite a bit of training attention for the basics and house rules (lots of NILF to learn). If he is in one of his moods, Griff will be in the background doing the commands that I ask Remus, but in a cringing oh god I am in trouble way. Of course when I noticed that he was acting part of hte lesson, I did ob with Remus in another part of hte house.

Nicole--I have wondered if part of this is a winter thing too. We had way more snow than usual and havent gotten out of the house as much as we are used to. So he hadnt gotten the work he is used to and was super patient with a new pup. I dont know.....
I do kick his ass outside--I dont coddle any of this behavior. 
His mood is fairly random. It could come up because he doesnt want to come outside with Remus and I make him and then he wont play--If I try to play, he will come to heel and try to stick to me (Look ma, I am being good, dont make me do anything....). Sometimes I can get him into drive and sometimes I dont bother trying, get disgusted and go back in the house without him. When he is normal, he tugs like a fiend, is drivey for his ball and doesnt act like he hurts anywhere.

I am hoping that ignoring the behavior is the right thing to do, but I am more of a Fix-it kind of person so sometimes think I should "do something" to help it. That gets me frustrated which, of course doesnt help. 

Thanks for the suggestions/thoughts. I'll try to get something on tape and post it.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Ben Colbert said:


> Sounds like we are making huge guesses here.
> 
> Writing everything off as dominance is super easy isn't it? Lets us wash our hands of any possible training issues.


It does, as that is all we can really do without actually seeing it. 
This is why I would start with a full work up on the dog, then you can start looking at other things, like training issues and what not. 

I am not seeing it as a training issue though.


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## Jack Roberts (Sep 5, 2008)

I would like to explore the dominance issue a little more. 

I agree with Jeff about a dog being comfortable with a pup and not having the need to beat on the pup. I like my dogs to be calm around other dogs even if another dog is acting stupid. When a dog is acting out against another one, it is usually thin nerves or insecurity on the dog part. 

The truly dominant dogs are the quiet and calm ones that have no need to beat up on other dogs. I think dominant dogs, even with people are the quiet ones. You can see this in dogs who do not bark or growl at someone but will still bite and bite hard. 

I noticed the same trait in humans. Some of the toughest people that I've known were quiet and humble in their ways. They had no reason to act tough because they were secure in themselves. I think you see the same thing in dogs.


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

LOL, I wanted to clarify this statement--it sounded bad when I just re-read it..."I do kick his ass outside--I dont coddle any of this behavior. " 

It is a direct response to Nicole's: "I saw that you mentioned that he doesn't like to go out in the yard for some reason but maybe a few hours outside requiring him to just hang out and be a dog might light a fire"

I do put him outside when I want him outside.....I dont go outside and kick his ass....


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## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

Jack Roberts said:


> I would like to explore the dominance issue a little more.


Why?

I guess I just don't get it. If we had a dog that was begging consistently for food no one would ask to explore the "hunger issue" a little more.

Even if dominance motivates a dog to act a certain way there is no reason to use it as an excuse. If your dog fights other dogs then its an asshole. Who cares if the reason its an asshole is because it was undersocialized or if it is because it sees other dogs as prey or if it is dominant. 

Her issue is her old dog is not paying attention to her and acting funny.

Once again I would completely seperate both dogs for a bit and institute a nothing in life is free program for your older dog. I would also maybe try a little off lead obedience for a while (forces you to stay away from corrections) and start teaching some new behaviors.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Why?

I guess I just don't get it. If we had a dog that was begging consistently for food no one would ask to explore the "hunger issue" a little more.

Other than the fact that you really are clueless, I think that you should be ears open (eyes) mouth shut.


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## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

Jeff,

Maybe instead of ad hominem attacks you could provide me with some reasoning. You see I definitely have me beliefs about what dogs are thinking but unlike some of you I don't take it personally when those beliefs are challenged. I'm here to hep and learn and that means I'm open to new ways of looking at things. Why don't we attempt to have a reasonable discussion about dogs with out personal attacks. or is that beyond you?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Ben, here you go. You said somewhere along the line "Why would a dog want to dominate a strange dog on a beach that he will probably never see again? Why, because dogs have a social structure. Males live by the code and status is everything. There are also a bunch of hottie bitches running on a dog beach also, thus, just like men ,with testosterone mind you, they can't help but throw there chest out and let the little bitches knoiw he is there. Mother nature has programed them so the head dog gets the spoils...thus, they are going to determine who is the head dog. The dog in this discussion, would never get to breed without help. That is the driving force in a nutshell. Top dog, procreation, master of the food bowl, yadda, yadda.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

By the way Ben, a good dog doesn't beat the crap out of lesser dogs and pups. They got the good and they know it. Put another dog of top status in front of them, it's on right now. Top dogs don't posture usually, they don't strut usually, they don't show teeth usually, they don't growl usually...they hit it on eye contact and you better be carefull interfering. It is nothing like breaking up a dog fight where neither really has their heart in it.


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## James Lechernich (Oct 20, 2009)

Can it be that the pup's novelty simply hasn't worn off yet(with you) and the older dog is picking up it? Lord knows I don't like dogs that need coddling, but if a deep bond is upset by a sudden, persistent change, I think I can see how that would take a toll. Sort of like an extended separation or death. Some dogs it doesn't faze, others it destroys.

Just a guess.


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## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

Don, I appreciate you trying to explain it to me but maybe this is something that you just believe on faith.

What I mean is everything you said sounds so anthropomorphic. You even said "just like men". I know why dogs are hungry and no how to fix that or use the drive for my benefit, I know why they crave company and know how to satiate that desire. I just don't see how believing that dominance runs a dogs life makes me a better trainer.

What about dogs that are less food driven? Are they not dominant because they don't mind other dogs eating out of their bowl? And dogs that like to play with other dogs? Do they just never feel threatened? Does dominance and size go hand in hand? How on earth does Dog A know that Dog B (same size) is a threat to his rank but Dog C (same size) isn't? What about under socialized dogs? Is it so genetically intwined that even a dog that has never played with more than one or two other dogs knows instantly what is about to go down? Its just so wishy washy.

In my mind dominance means one thing. It means control over a resource. I'm dominant in my house (my wife might disagree though) because I control the kibble, I control where the dog sits and lays, and I control hi access outdoors. If I have two dogs and one has more food drive than the other and therefore hogs the bones then I may be willing to say that the first dog has exhibited some type of dominance over that resource. Does the fact that the other dog simply doesn't care about anything but his favorite resting spot make him genetically less dominant? What if he's willing to fight for the spot? What if he's smaller, and loses the fight, but is still willing to give it a go?

The idea of dominance as an independent genetic drive is a feel good notion but it helps us not one bit as trainers. Its an excuse for unruliness at best.

P.S. These aren't meant as rhetorical questions. I would truly appreciate some insight from your end of things.


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## Sanda Stankovic (Jan 10, 2009)

> Remus is definately getting quite a bit of training attention for the basics and house rules (lots of NILF to learn). If he is in one of his moods, Griff will be in the background doing the commands that I ask Remus, but in a cringing oh god I am in trouble way. Of course when I noticed that he was acting part of hte lesson, I did ob with Remus in another part of hte house.


I know you say that the balance between is the same, but have YOU changed? Your dog is obviously very you oriented, and whatever you may be doing/not doing with him might be an indication to him that his position in your pack has changed. Griff may be doing commands trying to get your attention (as a last attempt for your affection) and you not only dont award him, but you punish him by taking the pup in the other room to train... Does he get any you time all for himself? Maybe do whatever you were doing with him before this behaviour started and see if things change...


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Ben Colbert said:


> Don, I appreciate you trying to explain it to me but maybe this is something that you just believe on faith.


That's probably what it is Ben. Blind faith. Derived from having 20 to 30 dogs yarded for about 25 years. Five yards over 2 acres and each yard has a family unit (pack) in it. I have been obseving behaviors for a long time Ben. Go back and read what Jack wrote about truly dominate dogs and how cool they are. He has been around dogs like this I can tell from what he said. 



Ben Colbert said:


> What I mean is everything you said sounds so anthropomorphic. You even said "just like men". I know why dogs are hungry and no how to fix that or use the drive for my benefit, I know why they crave company and know how to satiate that desire. I just don't see how believing that dominance runs a dogs life makes me a better trainer.


Ben, all mamals exibit much the same behaviors. Call it what you like. Dominance doesn't run a dogs life. Actually, status does. Achieving top dog is as good as it gets. Believing it won't make you a better trainer, understanding it might. But, you yourself said your own dog goes absolutely balistic if you are walking it and another dog is around. Outside of the leash, do you even have contol of your own dog?



Ben Colbert said:


> In my mind dominance means one thing. It means control over a resource. I'm dominant in my house (my wife might disagree though) because I control the kibble, I control where the dog sits and lays, and I control hi access outdoors. If I have two dogs and one has more food drive than the other and therefore hogs the bones then I may be willing to say that the first dog has exhibited some type of dominance over that resource. Does the fact that the other dog simply doesn't care about anything but his favorite resting spot make him genetically less dominant? What if he's willing to fight for the spot? What if he's smaller, and loses the fight, but is still willing to give it a go?


I have heard that before about "control over a resourse" I don't know who originally wrote that but it is bull shit Ben. If the top dog dominates the other dogs, he controlls ALL the resources. He controls everything. Now here is where it gets difficult. Control many times requires aggression. If they can't disern status, why don't lesser dogs engage alpha dogs. 

The idea of dominance as an independent genetic drive is a feel good notion but it helps us not one bit as trainers. Its an excuse for unruliness at best.

P.S. These aren't meant as rhetorical questions. I would truly appreciate some insight from your end of things.[/QUOTE]


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## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

Don,

I want you to answer my questions about specific behaviors. Its easy to throw the word dominance around and use these high minded ideas but the issues I posted are those that most pet owners face regularly. How does dominance impact the behaviors and statements made in my previous post?

P.S. My dog is a lot better today than he was a few weeks ago because I stopped being lazy and worked on it (mostly I realized that he needed to be able to stand dogs to get his BH). I didn't makes excuses and i didn't try to guess (thats what it would be) what was causing his aggression. I just took steps to fix it.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Ben, while dogs existence revolves around dominance.....the vast majority of dogs are not dominate. They are somewhere between the top and the bottom. Most are ChSh fear bites when it cimes to aggression. It all has to do with status. The low dog pick at the next low dog for his place in line for those resources you were referring to. It is mostly posture when you are at the bottom. The so called aggressin escalates as the status increases but if you watch them, the do the stiff legged strut, roll the lips back, growl. Both dogs do this trying to back the other down so they don't have to fight. That is because they are not the top dogs. Top dogs are as serious as a heart attach, and they are the most confident of all dogs. You watch them close and they will even sucker punch each other....they act like they are backing down so the other lets his guard down and they jump em then. You call it anthropomorphising but people do the same thing. Behavior is behavior. Some is different, alot is the same. I have 68 lbs dogs that take on the 85 to 90 lb dogs. Size means nothing to them. Being top dog is everything. The big dogs don't take the smaller ones lightly either because the smaller ones can still do them in and they are fighting for top dog. They are top dogs and won't quit....so I keep them separated with AC current. With a multitude of status' you can come up with all kinds of variations especially when you consider that many dogs have never been around other dogs thesr days. Look at gang bangers. They are a pack, they protect their territory. Not for just for food, or procreation, they control everything. When you have been around enough dogs, you will see them protect food even though they are not hungry....but tomorrow is another day.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

You want it on a silver platter as well ?? At best we have theory and conjecture. Most of the time the pieces fit, sometimes they do not. Your job is to go out there and look at what is going on, and see how what Don has said fits.


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## Jack Roberts (Sep 5, 2008)

Ben,

Why is it important to understand dominance?

Some reason that I can think of:

1. Training the dog:

Dominant Dog Defined: A calm and confident dog who has no need to strut around, usually they look relaxed but with their eyes they have an intensity and strength about them. On a personal note, I think that the truly dominant dogs have a social side to them and are not that aloof. This is what I have observed but Don or someone else may be able to elaborate more. I am not making a universal statement that aloof dogs are not high in dominance.

Non Dominant Dog Defined: Dog that is growling at family members or other people. Dog challenging children or others in the house. Dog that puffs chest, shows teeth, growls, or barks at people. A dog that reacts to other dogs. A confident dog does not care if a lower rank dog is making a bunch of noise or barking at him. A dog that is not comfortable in new environments. I think what a lot of people call a dominant dog is really a non dominant dog with temperament issues.

Training:
A truly dominant dog is not going to take to mistreatment or overly harsh training. You get harsh or over correct this type of dog then you may have a dog coming up on you. I would not blame a dog for coming up for unfair treatment. At the least, the dog will just not work for you. In essence, the dog will just start to ignore you. They will not respond to someone who is hectic or nervous with their training. They usually will only listen to one person in a family. 

Dog has to be won over by firm and fair boundaries. An important training is teaching the respecting of boundaries with the handler. The NILF is good to use but I think at the same time you have to allow the dog to be a dog. Establishment of leadership is crucial, even more than with other dogs. It usually takes a while to establish a relationship with this type dog. A dominant dog is just not going to accept your leadership but it must be done over time. I think it takes months before the dog gets comfortable with someone.

Negatives of this type of dog: Dog is going to give someone problems who thinks that they can force their will on the dog. It is not the type of dog for those with power issues or someone who lacks understanding of how dogs behave. I do not think that these are top podium dogs since they have an independent side to them. 

Positives: Once you earn this type of dog's respect, he/she will do anything or work for you. There is bond of respect between handler and dog that you do not have with a dog of lesser dominance. 

The dominant dog will still act like an ass sometimes and need reminders but it is a small price to pay to have this type of animal. Personally, I think true dominant dogs make good family dogs, if you have leadership. The dog will be relaxed with the children and others because he/she has no reason to feel challenged.

Please feel free to criticize any points. It is a discussion board and these are just some thoughts and observations.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Dominant Dog Defined: A calm and confident dog who has no need to strut around, usually they look relaxed but with their eyes they have an intensity and strength about them. On a personal note, I think that the truly dominant dogs have a social side to them and are not that aloof. This is what I have observed but Don or someone else may be able to elaborate more. I am not making a universal statement that aloof dogs are not high in dominance.

I think that this is a start, but there is so much more to this simple explanation, enough that I would not agree with this being a definition. Way too incomplete.

Where are the modifiers ?? 

What about other drives effecting the nature of the dominance ??

There are many other things that are omitted including breed. Don notices dominance, because he has airedales and dominance is more clearly pronounced in terrier breeds.

To me, discussing this with beginners is like taking calculous after learning how to count. They are getting way ahead of themselves, and would not see this correctly anyway.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

"There are many other things that are omitted including breed. Don notices dominance, because he has airedales and dominance is more clearly pronounced in terrier breeds."

When the shit hits the fan with a pack of terriers dominance can go out the window. 
Think a big Irish family and two get in a fight. PILE ON! Trust me! :lol:

Reality
When I had two Border terriers and one JRT the JRT strutted around like he owned the world. Always pushinig and pestering the Borders. They pretty much ignored him unless he pushed to hard. 
Then he got a free trip around the yard screaming like the little Napolean he was. 
My calm, laid back older (6yrs) GSD puts up with all kinds of crap from the younger (3yrs) wacko....until the older one has had enough. A simple growl ends it all. 
Is my dog dominant? Between my two he is but that doesn't make him a dominat dog. 
People (who don't know what they are looking at) would think the younger one is boss because of all his antics and bravado while the older guy just hangs out. 
The older one is much calmer around strange dogs. toaally ignores them...as long as they don't posture up in his face.
I STILL don't consider him dominant but that has a lot to do with our social structure. I'm the boss.......and I have my wife's permission to say so. :grin::wink:


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## Jack Roberts (Sep 5, 2008)

I agree about my definition being simple and it needs a lot of work. Perhaps, we could use the word threshold and impulse control of the dog. I am not using threshold in the sense of a dog reacting to a real threat or even ability to bite. I am using threshold in the sense of how a dog reacts to environmental stimuli and other dogs. 

I still think that calmness and confidence are two defining factors of dominance or I am willing to say that it may be the genetic components of the leader of a pack. 

Dogs naturally are more comfortable with calmness and confidence, so possibly those dogs that exhibit these characteristics are the natural born leaders. Dogs prefer leaders (people/or other dogs) who are calm and confident. It keeps harmony much easier, which I think dogs thrive on.

Breed does make a difference in some of the behaviors that are exhibited. I have had terriers in the past. I would say with the American Pit Bull Terrier that the dog starting a fight is not dominance but a drive. A drive just like a dog bred to retrieve has a drive to retrieve. It is a genetic component that some terriers have, although now people are making terriers more watered down. 

I do not know if there are any terrier hunters in this forum who put dogs in the ground or hunt, but I would think that they would not mess with the dogs who pick fights with other dogs, so they may be using terriers with higher dominance as their working dogs. I am not sure about this but just taking the argument out to another breed of dog. Someone can correct if I'm wrong.

You will still see some terriers who are calm and confident but will still stand their ground if they have to. I would still argue that despite breed that the calmness and confidence are one of defining facets of a dominant dog. I can still accept that some dogs who may not be dominant may still have these two traits but I do not think that a true dominant dog can be without these traits.

Jeff,

You are right to bring other drives into the equation. The other drives play a role. I would be interested in what other drives you or others would use to define the overall picture of a dominant dog.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> My calm, laid back older (6yrs) GSD puts up with all kinds of crap from the younger (3yrs) wacko....until the older one has had enough. A simple growl ends it all.
> Is my dog dominant? Between my two he is but that doesn't make him a dominat dog.


That is what I was trying to say Bob. Between any two dog they are egqual or different status. One may be dominate over the other but that is just in a particular situation. The first sign they are not the real deal is the posturing, growling, bared teeth and such. The real deal dogs just start grabbing body parts. These are the dogs that never say die and they never submit so your going to have to step in and separate them.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jack, I hunted terriers in the ground for a number of years. Dominance has nothing to do with a good working dog in the ground.
I've dug to dogs that were super soft and dogs that wouldn't allow anyone other then their owner to lift them out of a dig. 
When one goes to ground ALL the rest are tied out. Even house mates and best buddys. 
Dominance goes out the door when it comes to who gets to go in the hole.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> That is what I was trying to say Bob. Between any two dog they are egqual or different status. One may be dominate over the other but that is just in a particular situation. The first sign they are not the real deal is the posturing, growling, bared teeth and such. The real deal dogs just start grabbing body parts. These are the dogs that never say die and they never submit so your going to have to step in and separate them.



And the terriers are much more apt to "just start grabbing body parts". 
MUCH less posturing even in the average house terrier. :-D:wink: 
I think the little bassids are probably more inclined to do this then the big guys. 
That Napolean thing gets the best of them. :lol:


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## Jack Roberts (Sep 5, 2008)

Hi Bob,



I think Terriers are naturally more softer towards their handler. They are much less dominant towards people. Terriers may bark at people but they do not have the natural proclivity to be dominate against people. 

How did your most dominant terrier act towards the other dogs?

When talking about most terriers than it is dominance among dogs.

Herders:

Dominance starts to relate to people. Most herders are not dog aggressive, especially those that are bred as working dog. I do think that some are naturally more dominant towards people.

Dominance:

There is dominance between dogs and a dominance between dog and humans.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Jack Roberts said:


> Most herders are not dog aggressive...


Most, meaning 51%? Collies, not so much, but I'd say that my own personal experience leads me to believe that there are more dog aggressive GSDs and Malis than there are non-dog aggressive ones. 

I've met a LOT of German shepherds and Malinois that are dog aggressive. In fact, I'd venture to say that at least 60-70% of the dogs I get through my rescue have some degree of DA, and in many cases, that is the reason they are being given up. These are not all just pet quality dogs, either; I've taken in and placed everything from your typical BYB dog to papered working line dogs (several in the past year have gone straight into law enforcement because they would never have made it in your average pet home). So far, I have not noticed a difference between them as far as one 'type' being more or less DA than others, but I would not say that most are NOT DA.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Jack Roberts said:


> Hi Bob,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Couldn't have said it better Jack. I really wish Bob hadn't muddied the water on this while trying to clear this dominance up for some. Bob has crossed another bridge that is pretty much in the terrier world. It is seen alot in the den terriers.....it is called "gameness". Some call it "dead game" at a certain level.. Many think it is cool if their dogs run through a large tube that is curved so the dog can't see through it. Den terriers, 10 to 15 lbs, go into the belly of the beast, far underground, to do battle with game larger than themselves. They will die before they cry uncle. True gameness is what separates the terriers from the rest of the dog world, yet they are normally soft with people. At any rate, gameness over rides everything and has nothing to do with status among dogs.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Kristen wrote,


> I've taken in and placed everything from your typical BYB dog to papered working line dogs


What you are really saying here is "hobby breeders"?


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## Jack Roberts (Sep 5, 2008)

Hi Kristen,

It sounds like you have a lot of experience with the poorly bred dogs. You are dealing with peoples' throw away dogs to put it into blunt terms. It is nothing against your work but the reality of the situation is people do not want the dogs and they end up in rescue. The dogs usually have temperament issues or very thin nerves. There are some dogs in rescue who have too much drive for a home but the majority of animals are usually not good temperament animals or well bred. I am using well bred not as on paper but the genetic characteristics built into the dog. 

I have rescued one dog in my life which was an American Pit Bull Terrier. He had solid nerves but just had too much drive for someone not familiar with dogs. He was a very good dog, so I have nothing against rescues. I would just hope that rescues would put down the animals with the poor temperaments and not try to rehabilitate them. That is for another thread.

Herders:

I should have been more specific about the breed. I was referring to working line German Shepherds and Malinois. I have met some really poorly bred Australian Shepherds. These dogs were dog aggressive not to mention people aggressive. I do not have a lot of experience with Collies. Although, I've been around a few Border Collies and had one as kid. 


Malinois:

Malinois are not as dog aggressive as terrier breeds. I am not using the poorly bred examples of herders. You really can not fault the terrier for dog aggressiveness because fight is bred in them. Well bred Malinois are not known for being dog aggressive. It is not part of the breed standard. I am not saying that the breed standard is what you get with every dog but it is a general outline of the dogs behavior. Although, you may get some dog aggressive Malinois, it should not be the norm. I think that if a strong dog is challenged than they will fight but they do not go looking for fights. This is not dog aggression but the dog protecting itself.

I have been around kennels with working dogs and they were not firing off one another. They were mostly Malinois and most of them were imported older dogs and did not know each other to begin with. I am not saying you can put males dogs out with a female in heat and that you are not going to have any problems.

I have seen some poor bred German Shepherds that were aggressive but most dogs who are working dogs are not going to be used if they are highly dog aggressive. Handler or agencies are not going to want to mess with dog aggressive animals.

Most pet German Shepherds that I've seen lately were nervy and unstable. I have not seen a stable German Shepherd out walking in a long time. You may find them at the Schutzhund field but a stable shepherd is not out among the pet population. Usually, they are very fearful, which is horrible thing to see happen in the breed. People think they have a great protection dog but have no idea that the dog would run before it did anything. 

I would be interested in what the person who runs the Lackland breeding program says about dog aggression in their working dogs. I would think it would be a trait that is being bred out of the dogs.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Couldn't have said it better Jack. I really wish Bob hadn't muddied the water on this while trying to clear this dominance up for some. Bob has crossed another bridge that is pretty much in the terrier world. It is seen alot in the den terriers.....it is called "gameness". Some call it "dead game" at a certain level.. Many think it is cool if their dogs run through a large tube that is curved so the dog can't see through it. Den terriers, 10 to 15 lbs, go into the belly of the beast, far underground, to do battle with game larger than themselves. They will die before they cry uncle. True gameness is what separates the terriers from the rest of the dog world, yet they are normally soft with people. At any rate, gameness over rides everything and has nothing to do with status among dogs.



Well said Don. 
My truely gamest dog ever was a Border dog that was retired from the ground because of it. 
Two kills on raccoon. Got tore to crap both times yet wouldn't come out till it was done. When he did come out he'd act like he just found a pot of gold in their.
Same dog was super soft to people and other dogs.
The reason I started working the JRTs was because they are (in the purest form) a baying dog under gound.
Aside from my own ethics of continuing with the Border, you couldn't hunt as often because of injuries. 
I hunted my JRT for 5-6 yrs, often 2-3 days a week, and he never took a serious bite. 
The JRTs can sometimes get nasty with people. Strange conterdictions these little dogs.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> What you are really saying here is "hobby breeders"?


I guess. I certainly wouldn't consider them reputable, as they have either not responded at all when I've attempted to get in touch with them, or said they didn't want the dog back or to assist in finding it a more appropriate home, etc. And so far none have done any kind of health testing on their dogs. That is what I consider a BYB. A BYB is only out to make whatever profit he can off the dogs. He does not do health testing, certainly does not show or compete, provides limited or no Vet care, and feeds whatever food's on sale at Walmart or the grocery store. 

A hobby breeder, to me, at least does the bare minimum of hip and elbow certs on their breeding animals, but usually does not participate in showing or trialing or whatever. They provide appropriate Vet care and feed decent quality (or what they believe is decent quality - something like Iams, for example) food, but have no titles on their dogs or anything like that. They're family pets that are also bred. 



And yes, I do realize that the rescue dogs are not even in the same 'league' as our working dogs, but the point was that to say that 'most herders are not dog aggressive' is not really true. Even on the Schutzhund field, I've seen my share of DA dogs that would not have thought twice about ripping into another dog IF the chance arose for them to do so, and careful precautions were taken so that said dogs were brought out with specific other dogs, at specific times, etc. It's not a comfortable feeling to know you're on the field with a DA dog; especially when you know you have one that is going to give it right back (and has) if it is attacked. 

I've seen a lot more DA German shepherds (and GSD mixes), from all lines and backgrounds, than I've seen non DA ones. That was what I was getting at in my last post. I do often wonder if today's society, with the leash laws and whatnot, hasn't contributed to this problem. When dogs just freely roamed the neighborhoods, how much DA was there, really? NOT that I'm saying we should go back to letting our dogs roam without fences or leashes, but it's just something I've often wondered about. All the stray dogs around here (well, they aren't 'stray' - they do have homes and owners) are friendly and sociable whenever they encounter another loose dog. I've never seen any of them get into a fight with one another, and they range from a chihuahua, to a shepherd/rottie mixed something-or-other, to a pointer, to labs, to an australian shepherd, to a Pyrenees, and a dobie every once in a while. Most are intact males (go figure LoL), but a couple are female. There used to also be a GSD, but I haven't seen him in a couple of years.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Regarding most herders (gsds) being DA, I have not found this in my experience. Looking at a very general example, where I previously lived there were approx five/six gsds none of whom were related in the area. My dog (gsd), was social with all of them, although a bit tetchy with an older male, there were a couple of working lines, a rescue and couple of pets, none with DA, I'll add also that none of them lived in crates and were out off leash every day. Part of the joy of having social animals, one can stop and chat with other dog folks whilst out.

The couple of schH clubs I have attended, there were a couple of gsds with DA from the same breeding line in one club, the other club's DA problem came from one of the rotties. I've been around a few dog venues/clubs, never did come across this overt dog aggression often from the gsd end anyway. I have of course seen it in the badly managed/treated and poorly bred, if I were to go out and purchase another quality gsd pup, I would not be expecting any DA from it.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Kristen Cabe said:


> I guess. I certainly wouldn't consider them reputable, as they have either not responded at all when I've attempted to get in touch with them, or said they didn't want the dog back or to assist in finding it a more appropriate home, etc. And so far none have done any kind of health testing on their dogs. That is what I consider a BYB. A BYB is only out to make whatever profit he can off the dogs. He does not do health testing, certainly does not show or compete, provides limited or no Vet care, and feeds whatever food's on sale at Walmart or the grocery store.
> 
> A hobby breeder, to me, at least does the bare minimum of hip and elbow certs on their breeding animals, but usually does not participate in showing or trialing or whatever. They provide appropriate Vet care and feed decent quality (or what they believe is decent quality - something like Iams, for example) food, but have no titles on their dogs or anything like that. They're family pets that are also bred.


So what you are saying is that using derogatory terms like byb in your post is supposed to elevate the term "rescue" to an almighty position when actually, you get personal "feel good" satisfaction foisting these same inferior, unstable, unhealthy dogs off on the innocent. Seems to me rescue perpetuates the cycle of POS dogs. Obviously you rescue folks don't deal in dogs from good breeders. In my mind that puts you in the same class with those very same breeders you look down on.... because that is what you peddle. Seems to me you would be better off just making the point you intended to make and losing the derogatory references....I mean since rescue people peddle mostley POS dogs.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> So what you are saying is that using derogatory terms like byb in your post is supposed to elevate the term "rescue" to an almighty position when actually, you get personal "feel good" satisfaction foisting these same inferior, unstable, unhealthy dogs off on the innocent. Seems to me rescue perpetuates the cycle of POS dogs. Obviously you rescue folks don't deal in dogs from good breeders. In my mind that puts you in the same class with those very same breeders you look down on.... because that is what you peddle. Seems to me you would be better off just making the point you intended to make and losing the derogatory references....I mean since rescue people peddle mostley POS dogs.


_What?!_ 

I don't even know how to respond to this right now. :???:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I do, NICE ONE ! ! ! ! 

I feel the same way. The POS that infest the local pound should be shipped to China to reduce our debt to them. They like dog meat.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Kristen Cabe said:


> _What?!_
> 
> I don't even know how to respond to this right now. :???:


I see. So it is a case where it is alright for you to pass judgement and speak ill of breeders but don't dare be realistic and speak poorly of rescue operations that get off on how good they are when they place those same "poorly bred, unhealthy dogs with people that don't know any better. Actually, I fit almost all of your qualifying ideas of a BYB. Thus, I feel quite justified in voicing my opinin of what it is that rescues actally do. When you refer to byb's, it is the pot calling the kettle black. It might be nice if you people just refered to breeders as breeder's rather than catagorize them....because everything can be categorized.....even rescue. You could have made your point quite nicely without the byb comments.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Kristen. I am not really picking at you, I am just making a point of my own. The anumal right agenda is doing as weel as it is because they use the tactic of divide and conquer. When every dog person today lets stuff like puppy mill, and backyard breeder roll off their tongue as easily as saying "Good morning", we have a problem.


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## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

Don,

I'm super confused. Are you serious or are you playing devil's advocate? BYB and those who run puppy mills are scum. They pass off sub par dogs with no standards to anyone who has cash.

Do rescues tend to give people sub par dogs? Yes. You certainly will not find a perfect example of a GSD at a pound. But if you can't see the different between a rescue and a BYB then you need your eyes checked.

Rescues adopt out dogs that would otherwise be put down (whether you think they should be put down is a different argument) where as BYB's actually create the dog and attempt to profit off of it. There is no moral equivalency there.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Ben Colbert said:


> Don,
> 
> I'm super confused. Are you serious or are you playing devil's advocate? BYB and those who run puppy mills are scum. They pass off sub par dogs with no standards to anyone who has cash.
> 
> ...


 
Maybe we need another thread pertaining to dog rescue. There could be a couple of issues being confused here, I have an interest in rescue, not a huge one but nevertheless an interest, I did a bit for the scottish gsd rescue for a while.

You do from time to time get good dogs in... not so long ago a whole litter of healthy, working line, documented and robust looking pups, it does happen. I just happen to have a big disagreement on many of their policies that I don't participate so much, but there is responsibility there.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Ben, what kind of idiot would not try and profit from having a litter of pups ?? 1200-3000 for a pup that may, or may not turn into a decent dog is just exactly that, turning a profit.

Breeders don't lose money, if they did, they would have quit due to lack of funds, or should quit, for having junk stock to begin with. By the definition that is put out there, I am a backyard breeder as well.


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## Sanda Stankovic (Jan 10, 2009)

> True gameness is what separates the terriers from the rest of the dog world, yet they are normally soft with people.


What drives does gameness come from? The extreme of a prey drive?


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Sanda Stankovic said:


> What drives does gameness come from? The extreme of a prey drive?


Gameness derives from something like a jrt  and men messing with genetics!


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## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

Jeff,

I have no issue with a breeder turning a profit. I have issue with a breeder breeding two shit dogs just because they have opposite sets of genitalia.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

AAhhhIIII don't know if that is completely true Jeff. I think you may be in the crossbreed category. Weren't your pups whelped and raised in the house. Is that enough to make you a hobby breeder??? Oh, wait!!! I forgot you sold Carol a pup that already has a scratched eye. I guess you will sell to just anyone so that does indeedy make you a byb.

Speaking of responsible dog placement. I can recall at least for threads on different board of rescue dogs, that have been place by rescues, severley biting the new owners. In all the cases I remember, rescue was well aware of the dogs temperament. The last one was a siberian and it put the new owner in the hospital. Didn't Kristen make reference to byb's selling to just anyone.....or are ther just different standards because it is "rescue". 

Maggie, rescue folk won't get on a thread when they are the topic. As many times as I have mentioned hobby breeders, Have you once seen a hobby breeder step up and try to defend that BS about saving the weak being responsible? Good grief, rescue goes to the pounds in search of dogs to peddle. Most rescues today even take the mixes that may be part this or that.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> So it is a case where it is alright for you to pass judgement and speak ill of breeders but don't dare be realistic and speak poorly of rescue operations that get off on how good they are when they place those same "poorly bred, unhealthy dogs with people that don't know any better Actually, I fit almost all of your qualifying ideas of a BYB. Thus, I feel quite justified in voicing my opinin of what it is that rescues actally do. When you refer to byb's, it is the pot calling the kettle black. It might be nice if you people just refered to breeders as breeder's rather than catagorize them....because everything can be categorized.....even rescue. You could have made your point quite nicely without the byb comments. .


And now_ I _see. This started because you were offended by my mention of the term 'BYB' because you 'fit the bill,' so to speak (your words, not mine). The point I was trying to make when I said what I did was that I have had all kinds of GSDs come through my rescue, from the bottom of the barrel to well bred dogs that had no business being placed into the original home that they were in. 99% of their problems have been easily remedied with proper management of their drives, which the average pet home cannot understand, and placement with experienced owners and/or into working homes.

I only wanted to make it clear that not all the dogs I've taken in and placed out have been the unhealthy, ill-temperamented, nervebag shitters that you referred to as commonly being represented in rescue. 


I have no problem with you, Don. In fact, I respect you a great deal. However, I feel that the personal attack on me simply because I used the term BYB was unwarranted and certainly not pertinent to the conversation at hand. 



I'll wholeheartedly agree that there are shitty rescue operations all over the place, just like there are shitty breeders. But to tell me that my rescue efforts make me no better than a breeder who does no health testing and produces dysplastic and/or immune compromised dogs, or a breeder who just puts a male and female together because they're both registered members of the same breed is, quite frankly, a bit hurtful, not to mention the furthest thing from the truth that I think you could have possibly said. Rescue (at least the way I do it) is nothing like irresponsible breeding. The only reason there is a _need_ for rescue organizations is because of irresponsible breeders. I don't know how to state it any other way; you're either a responsible breeder or you're not. A responsible breeder is not going to react with an "oh well," attitude when I contact them to let them know that one of their puppies has been surrendered to a shelter or found half starved to death in the woods or something. They're going to want to do something about it.


My adoption requirements are very strict. I've made people mad when I've told them that I just don't feel that a German shepherd (rescue or not) is the right dog for them at all, and refused to allow them to even come out and meet the dogs I had available for adoption. I've turned several others off from adopting from me by saying that if they need to get rid of the dog for whatever reason, they are to contact me first so that I can take the dog back or assist them in finding it another appropriate home. I guess they feel like once they take the dog home, it's theirs to do with whatever they wish, but my viewpoint is that the dog's already been dumped in a shelter or turned loose on the highway once, and it became my responsibility when I took it in and placed it out. My goal is not to place as many dogs as possible in a year's time, although there are rescues out there that do have that goal. They don't put much emphasis at all on where the dog is going; if an adopter has money in hand, they get to take a dog home with them. I don't operate that way. I want to place each dog in the right home for that dog, so that 1. the new owners actually enjoy the dog, and 2. the dog doesn't end up back in the euth room of a shelter or put on a chain in the backyard because of issues that the new owners were unprepared to deal with. I do strive to find homes for every dog that I take in, but at the same time, I also realize that some dogs are just too far gone to function as a pet in today's society. I do not have a problem placing this kind of dog as a junkyard dog or putting it down if I have to. I do not want any of the dogs I place to ever become a liability because of any temperament or training issues that they may have had when I took them in. I do everything I can to ensure that their issues are worked through (and again, most of the time it's simply because the previous owners provided no discipline and/or exercise, and the dog was allowed to be the ruler of the household - it's not always a problem with the dog's genetic temperament), before they are adopted out. So far, I've done quite well. I've had a few dogs come back to me after a few weeks, but those dogs have then been successfully placed into more appropriate homes, based on information that the 1st adopter has provided that I had not been aware of (usually with themselves, but yes, occasionally with the dog, too)







> http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/Kristen. I am not really picking at you, I am just making a point of my own. The anumal right agenda is doing as weel as it is because they use the tactic of divide and conquer.



Let me be perfectly clear. I am in no way, shape, or form part of *any* animal rights agenda. I strongly oppose the HSUS, PeTA, and other such organizations who have nothing in mind except eradication of all animal ownership, period (despite what they sell to the general public). I am 100% against animal rights, and I have no problem saying so to anyone.


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## Sanda Stankovic (Jan 10, 2009)

maggie fraser said:


> Gameness derives from something like a jrt  and men messing with genetics!


i dont get it... can you expand on this? Men created all dog breeds by messing with genetics. But which part of genetics did they have to mess to create this trait?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Ben, the best hounds and hunting dogs come from what would be considered BYB's. For the record, hobby breeders are BYB's that just think they are several cuts above. Rescue justifies selling those crap dogs because they are saving a dogs life. Sounds good, but, it is still a crap dog. That sure doesn't give them room to be calling their suppliers BYB's. Besides, any breeder has crap dogs....just some more than others.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Jeff,

I have no issue with a breeder turning a profit. I have issue with a breeder breeding two shit dogs just because they have opposite sets of genitalia.

Then you have to define what is shit. There are many many times that I see dogs that are less than what I would consider breeding being bred. That becomes a problem. Your definition, and my definition may not be the same at all.

Quote: Oh, wait!!! I forgot you sold Carol a pup that already has a scratched eye. I guess you will sell to just anyone so that does indeedy make you a byb.

You forget that I have a contract that states that the pup is sold "as is" and thus I am exempt from scorn. LOL I cannot help it if the crazy ass goes and attacks trees and gets eye wounds. Tree attacks are an important part of ENS. You just smack the pup into the tree until they hate them. I am sure that I read that somewhere.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Sanda Stankovic said:


> i dont get it... can you expand on this? Men created all dog breeds by messing with genetics. But which part of genetics did they have to mess to create this trait?


 
I don't get it either... would you rather I kept it to myself ?


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Ah, the scratched eye just gives her character Don. Kinda like scars on dog men.

(walks into traffic and asks)... so, what happened to the jealous dog?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Kristen, I am really sorry if you took this as a personal afront. It was not meant to be taken in any such manner. I repect you also and enjoy your posts. My whole point is that dog people are going to have to rethink what they are saying on message boards. In private is another thing. As you can see, even though you believe what your doing in rescue is right and good, it would be a very simple step to having people visualize rescue as being down there with the worst breeders and peddlers of POS dogs.. Hobby breeders can easily be made out to be the worst. It doesn't matter if 90% of rescue does good, or that 90% of the breeders you refer to as BYB's actually produce good dogs....everyone gets the same label.

Again my apologies if you found it offensive but it is tough to make a point without stepping on toes. For me anyway. For the record, I don't think I have ever really put down rescue. I may not really agree with it....but then I am not doing it so it is a moot point.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Nicole Stark said:


> Ah, the scratched eye just gives her character Don. Kinda like scars on dog men.
> 
> (walks into traffic and asks)... so, what happened to the jealous dog?


What happened to the jealous dog??? It went out the window with the older dog beating up on the pup, and 2 or 3 pages later was reversed to the older pup always treats the pup fairly. Pretty hard to make suggestion to that. Besides, reading between the lines, I think the dog is afraid of the owner to a certain extent. I have seen dogs that get so close they are hugging the handlers leg and it is usually because they are afraid of a harsh correction. Soft dogs do that. At any rate it is tough to offer suggestion when the scenario keeps changing course.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Jeff,
> 
> I have no issue with a breeder turning a profit. I have issue with a breeder breeding two shit dogs just because they have opposite sets of genitalia.
> 
> ...


Hey, hey, hey....how did I get messed up in this thread????? LMAO

She actually got the scratch while I was banking her off a tree.....that's what she gets for wanting to bite everything....stupid dog.....shouldn't be so damn mouthy!!!! (yeah.....right.....)


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Carol Boche said:


> She actually got the scratch while I was banking her off a tree.....that's what she gets for wanting to bite everything....stupid dog.....shouldn't be so damn mouthy!!!! (yeah.....right.....)


Carol, I usually schedule daily spankings to curb that urge. Sometimes I throw a wild card in there and spank them twice a day just for good measure.

Don about the dog. I suppose it could be afraid. Ben thought mine was. She may have been now that I think about it (not really just being facetious). But I do I remember participating in a seminar where I was encouraged put my dog in a back tie to speed up her sits. At least that was our focus at that particular moment. The dog was also connected to another line which was on a prong. Command given and the seminar giver puts enough pressure on the dog to get her pupils to totally black out her eyes and in the process her tongue turned blue. Needless to say the dog really doesn't like seeing the collar and certainly sits no faster. Notice I didn't offer up that up as a suggestion when the question came up.

It's probably a good thing she's afraid me because I don't need to spank her daily anymore. :---)


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Nicole Stark said:


> Carol, I usually schedule daily spankings to curb that urge. Sometimes I throw a wild card in there and spank them twice a day just for good measure.


Hee hee.....to be honest....I have only really banged her head off something one time and that was when she was serious about being a real bitch......

Don't usually discipline her......first of all, she doesn't do anything to warrant is (yet) and secondly....she is WAY to cute and cuddly for that....LOL


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Carol Boche said:


> Hee hee.....to be honest....I have only really banged her head off something one time and that was when she was serious about being a real bitch......
> 
> Don't usually discipline her......first of all, she doesn't do anything to warrant is (yet) and secondly....she is WAY to cute and cuddly for that....LOL


Ah, go with it Carol. It's real good for the soul. When I had cats I spanked them 4-5 times a day.


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> What happened to the jealous dog??? It went out the window with the older dog beating up on the pup, and 2 or 3 pages later was reversed to the older pup always treats the pup fairly. Pretty hard to make suggestion to that. Besides, reading between the lines, I think the dog is afraid of the owner to a certain extent. I have seen dogs that get so close they are hugging the handlers leg and it is usually because they are afraid of a harsh correction. Soft dogs do that. At any rate it is tough to offer suggestion when the scenario keeps changing course.



Damn Don--sure got things pegged in the 3ish posts I made did ya??? You'll have to point out where I said the dog was beating up the pup. I am pretty sure I clarified the 'kicking puppy's butt' statement saying that neither were allowed to beat the other up. This internet conversation isnt the best method of communication. Even less so with people who are quick to be right. 

You'll also need to point out where I said the older dog is always fair to the pup. Griffin is absolutely wonderful with puppies and put up with all of the puppy crap-got his legs chewed on, got slept on, got walked under and even humped a time or 2. Griff has also played rougher as Remus has gotten older. Has he been unfair to the pup?? Not sure, but has he flattened the puppy--yep. 

They are house dogs and part of the family and are together constantly when I am around. They will have to figure out an equilibrium. As I said, they are both really nice dogs and get along well so far. 

Not sure how my scenario keeps changing....I dont recall you asking any questions if you needed clarification on anything. Perhaps instead of reading between the lines you ask?

The hugging the leg thing is interesting--he has never done it before and if I dont try to make him play with me he doesnt do it. When he did it, it reminded me of the e-collar discussions, with Lou talking about making the dog believe that the only safe place was next to the handler (I think that dog was shutting down to corrections). Clearly a stressed dog and trying to play with him was not the answer. Silly me thought it would help. Actually I started doing some quick, fast changing ob with him and he has perked right up--lots of sits, downs, turns etc and he is up and ready for the ball. Backwards to what I thought would work, but so far in the last 3 days if he seems to be sulking, I give a few commands and he seems to feel better, looks for his reward and plays.

While he does seem to be afraid of me, I have to say, while he has gotten fair corrections, he has not had harsh ones-in ob he doesnt need them and in his work, he doesnt get corrected physically. Most of his training has been marker training, positive and, if anyone has heard of Brenda Aloff, I have done some 'natural dog body language' training (what ever it is called, dont even know if there is a technique--but there is body work, body blocking etc). 

Any hoo.....Griffin was in a snit on Tues, I accidentally realized that giving him commands made him feel more secure. And he seems a bit more relaxed. No major snits so far. Maybe it is as simple as he doesnt know his place anymore and I was ignoring him instead of being a good leader??? I dont know. But I do appreciate those who took the time to think about it and make suggestions.


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## Sanda Stankovic (Jan 10, 2009)

> I accidentally realized that giving him commands made him feel more secure.


I could notice that even just 5 min with my dog and general encouragement when he would do commands was enough to get him all back to his normal self again... I also noticed that unless the attention (and I mean working with him, not just walks etc, but actual interaction) wasnt divided equally, this would also get him all unhappy again... Some dogs are just way too needy.


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

Hi Sandra,

I would have never pegged Griff as a needy dog. I actually have half-bitched that I dont have a loyal gsd, he is pretty independent. We have suited each other though. I have 2 8 yr old kids, a house to renovate, etc etc and the time I spend with him training on 2 SAR teams and all the exercise he gets (hiking and ball throwing) has always been enough. Apparently things have changed LOL--and yes, work seems to work, not play. Since he does article search, I have taken to throwing my keys or phone somewhere and telling him to search--easy and makes him quite happy.

With this new behavior, Griff doesnt come to me for attention, he just kind of hangs back and sulks/looks sad. 

Having to try to explain things coherently in this thread has forced me to think about it more analytically (instead of just 'what the hell??') which has helped I think. 

We are on day 4 of improved attitude. We'll see if it lasts. I have been trying to figure out when it first started. If it was right when Remus came home at 8 weeks, or if it started a little later when Remus was getting cheeky and his drives were kicking in. 

He goes to the vet next week for a physical etc.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Jennifer wrote


> Griffing kicks his henie during play





> Hi Sandra, Griff is a very patient and good with Remus[


Jennifer, it is easy to misinterpret things that are said on the net. I may have misinterpretted these comments. If so......the misunderstanding is mine.

But, these two comments had nothing to do as to why I think the dog is fearful of you. It was his general demeanor in your presence and little things you said along the way. The dog does indeed seem to be a soft dog. While I can read a dog descently, and can correct things I see, I can't offer suggestions as to how someone else should approach a specific problem that they have created. Actually, my first thought was after Griffin kicked the pups heinie, he probably got his henie kicked pretty good.....which was the beginning. But...it would all be speculation and since no one else mentioned the dog may be fearfull of you...I just left it alone.


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## Sanda Stankovic (Jan 10, 2009)

Jennifer Michelson said:


> I would have never pegged Griff as a needy dog. I actually have half-bitched that I dont have a loyal gsd, he is pretty independent.


my dog is also what I would call independent, happy to be by himself even if he has an option of being inside the house, but he is very sensitive of slight changes in what he perceives as my priorities. How can I explain this... Its almost like he doesnt care if I dont do stuff with him as long as I dont do more stuff with the other dog than with him. That to him, from what I was able to figure out for myself, means insecurity in his position in our pack which lead to all other issues that I've mentioned, mainly with the other dog (also an adult). I could be totally off, I dont have as much experience as many people here with dogs, but its just how you described few things that matched with my situation very well. It took me a while to understand that dogs can express their pack insecurities in what we perceive as 'jealousy'.


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

Yeah, Don, this isnt the easiest way to communicate.... I forget that no one knows me, has any way to infer inflection etc etc and use my normal colloquialisms. My idea of ' kicking his heinie' is more comparing how they play--basically normal back and forth wrestling with Griff 'winning' most of the time, with this odd shut down behavior where Griff wont interact at all. Over all Griffin is extremely patient, but when he plays, he is rough (with all dogs, not just Remus). Hope that makes sense. 

The 2 walks I took with the 2 of them without a ball, I did notice that the interaction from Griff towards Remus was more along the lines of 'unfair', I guess, but I am not sure--dont know if Griff was being dominant/taking out stress or if Remus was 'prey' in the absence of the ball..But they had balls for yesterdays walk and Griffin ignored Remus. Of course this stuff is me having to learn to manage 2 dogs.

While you are right in saying that he is acting afraid of me, I cant think of why he should be. That is why it is so distressing to me (and yep, I have taken it personally.......silly human). I cant decide if he is soft or not--at work he is a prey nut and not exactly respectful or obedient to me, a correction there is a non event. He wants to do his job period. At home he is a very quiet house dog. He is low key and hangs out well, is amazing with the kids, and has no bad manners at this point in his life. 

No one I worked with understood why I was so soft with him when I first started training. I kept saying "But, he's such a good boy" and they basically wanted to smack me. But at home he is such a well mannered, quiet dog. At work he is a strong, harder, super intense, high energy dog. Can they be considered 'hard' in drive and 'soft' out of it?


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

Sandra--I am starting to think along those lines....Griff was fine without much attention because it was on his terms. Now things arent how he likes them. So he is insecure. I guess me 'bossing him around' makes him more secure. I hope it is as simple as that....

The puppy likes being with me and also needs attention for training. Also since he is being trained for cadaver--I can 'work' him much more often than I can 'work' Griffin since I need a live victim and a large area to work. I am glad I remembered the article searching--I can do that anywhere (we just mess around with it, since I kept losing things in the woods I taught him to "find my keys").


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I have found that when a dog is stressed, doing something the dog is infinitly familiar with seems to relax them. Something they know and can do...not just familar surroundings as it requires their focus. I use this as a transition when I place an older pup.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Sanda Stankovic said:


> my dog is also what I would call independent, happy to be by himself even if he has an option of being inside the house, but he is very sensitive of slight changes in what he perceives as my priorities. How can I explain this... Its almost like he doesnt care if I dont do stuff with him as long as I dont do more stuff with the other dog than with him. That to him, from what I was able to figure out for myself, means insecurity in his position in our pack which lead to all other issues that I've mentioned, mainly with the other dog (also an adult). I could be totally off, I dont have as much experience as many people here with dogs, but its just how you described few things that matched with my situation very well. It took me a while to understand that dogs can express their pack insecurities in what we perceive as 'jealousy'.


Sanda, from what I have read about this matter I think your statements above very likely, barring any health related issues, are a rather accurate assessment of the situation. JMO


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