# Changing the cue word to clean up the out



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

So here's the situation...my dog Fawkes has both a high sense of possession for the tug, sleeve, etc and a pretty high desire for the interaction with either me or the decoy. He was involved in a serious dog fight with my former dog when he was about 18 months old. Both dogs had each other by the upper neck. I told Fawkes to out, which he did, but my other dog immediately re-gripped and grabbed him by the face and shook him hard, which almost made him lose an eye. I taught him to out when he was a pup using the two toy technique and giving him lots of rebites for a fast out. However, since that fight, his out has never been super duper clean. His grip seems fine on a tug or whatever when he's being engaged, but he'll jaw extensively on just about any object (tug, disc, sleeve or suit jacket) when it's time to out. I typically mark the out with a yes marker when he finally lets go and reward with a rebite, so I'm also kind of wondering if in his head, he thinks he's being marked and rewarded for the slow and chewy out?

The more compulsion you put on him, the more conflict he gets into (I've already tried negative reinforcement using a low level of stim on an e-collar and stopping the stim when he outs a tug or ball along with marking and rewarding). We were talking about this at training today and discussing starting from scratch and using a new cue word. I might try this this week (need another cue word that doesn't sound like out or aus). We've just started on the suit bicep bites this last week, so any additional suggestions on cleaning up the out with using a minimum of compulsion so we don't get into bad habits (we're training in PSA)?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

First off, work on it separately from the bite work.
Have you tried just locking up, waiting it out then mark and reward with a rebite?
No compulsion needed. Lynda can show you.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

im with bob. make it fun again. i also think you can use a new cue. then you are clean and you downt nead to fail. 
do it like with a pup, ore as bob say, lock up, when he releses give a new bite. then put your new cue on this.

out comands are not hard when they se a clear benfit from the out.

good luck.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I would find it hard to offer a solution from my keyboard but I have a question which may sound strange at the moment to you but, here goes:

Are you absolutely sure that the bad outing has its origin in the fight with your other dog? Or, in the back of your mind you are thinking that the dog won't out because last time you told him to, it was bad for him?

Something similar happend to our dogs: My older dog was about to go for the helper when another dog raced on to the field. Luckily, mine had a long line attached. Mine turned on the intruder and was about to nab him when I saw the line, grabbed it and called OUT which he did but the other dog chose his chance and grabbed mine by the side of its neck. I suddenly realised it was our younger dog who had knocked my husband over by jumping out of the car too soon. Well, from then on we got them separated and one chap said "the younger one's a killer and take care when you let them be together.

I tend to think a bit differently. The next day I let them out together as usual and no sign of aggression. Hardly a scratch on either of them contrary to the experts' opinions.

I don't honestly think that dogs keep a logbook on what has happened and therefore have an "agenda".

Maybe your dog's worse outing has other origins?​


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Yes, I've tried letting both the tug go totally slack and dead as well as waiting until he stops jawing before taking it and asking him to out. And yeah, I think we'll go back to playing two toys with a clicker as well. I'll have to really work on absolutely not marking any jawing.

Gillian, if he gets into a dog fight now (which has been rare since rehoming the other dog), he has to be basically totally choked off from the bite because even if the other dog is in total submission, he won't let go. I'm sure there are probably some self preservation issues going on there as well, but he's always had a pretty high level of possession for the toy, so that's feeding into too, no doubt.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Put some video up. might be easier to get some help/opinions on what might work. 

Good Luck


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

I'm confused, u say the more compulsion the more conflict then u say low level stim...What kind of compulsion are u talking about here? What exactly have u done to clean this up and yes as stated in another thred " if u aint fixing it your teaching it". Best quote ever!!!

T


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

How young did you start teaching the 'out' Maren? To me this is one thing that really shouldn't be rushed on a younger pup. Also what sport are you looking to compete in? I use a different cue 'word' for outting in Ringsport and a separate word for outting toys, frisbees etc. In Ringsport Sasha 'outs' on her name as that means she is going to guard even though the full command is "Sasha Out!!" we taught her to out on her name and on the whistle it is an out with recall or just recall.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

tracey delin said:


> I'm confused, u say the more compulsion the more conflict then u say low level stim...What kind of compulsion are u talking about here? What exactly have u done to clean this up and yes as stated in another thred " if u aint fixing it your teaching it". Best quote ever!!!
> 
> T


If I give a lot of rebites as a reward, it gets cleaner, but not as clean as I like. If I used compulsion, which I tried for the first time about 2 weeks ago, I used like a continuous 2 out of 10 on a moderate level e-collar until he let the toy or ball go. Then I tried it the next day without the e-collar and he was chewier than ever. :-k 



> How young did you start teaching the 'out' Maren? To me this is one thing that really shouldn't be rushed on a younger pup. Also what sport are you looking to compete in? I use a different cue 'word' for outting in Ringsport and a separate word for outting toys, frisbees etc. In Ringsport Sasha 'outs' on her name as that means she is going to guard even though the full command is "Sasha Out!!" we taught her to out on her name and on the whistle it is an out with recall or just recall.


Geoff, I trained the out with him 100% motivationally with him as a pretty young pup playing two toy or two ball and marked and rewarded with a rebite or throw the ball/toy when he outed on his own. I never lifted him up off the toy to get him to out. I am also thinking of switching the cue word for the out because we're also using "out" as the cue to get out of the sheep's flight zone when herding, so he could also be sorta confused with a multiple use word (s) since out sounds like aus. Not sure how often the whistle is used in PSA (haven't seen any trials and PSA videos are a bit harder to find than ring sport videos, despite the sports' similarity).

Dave, my video editing software isn't working real hot at the moment, but I think I have one video of him doing it on a disc. I'll see if I can get it up later.


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

We have had a lot of success “reprogramming” dogs who have conflict on their out by scrapping the out all together and re-teaching it as a down through all positive means.

I tend to go back to tug work and will use “Fawkes Down” as the new command. I’ll wait the dog out till he lets go of the toy and downs then offer the toy back as the reward. I’ll build on this and transfer it to the sleeve and suit.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Thanks Matthew, that's an interesting suggestion. In terms of trialing, since I don't have a clear picture in my head of what it looks like as a finished product, is that permissible to do? Just curious. 

I played two tug with him a little bit ago with a clicker. I didn't attach a cue word to it yet, just clicked and tossed the other toy when he dropped the toy cleanly. He did it well, though there was a few times when he dropped tug #1, I clicked and threw tug #2, he grabbed tug #1 off the ground at his feet before I could grab it, and ran over to tug #2 and tried to pick up both at the same time. There was also a few times where I had to really tease for 30-45 seconds with the tug in my hand before he'd drop the one in his mouth. He just doesn't care that the tug is "dead," but still likes to possess it. We'll work on it again tomorrow with just getting a clean out, no cue words.


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

Are you being as interesting as you can be foryour dog or do you think you could put a little more showmanship in your interaction with the dog to become more interesting than self rewarding on the dead tug? From my own experience, super posessive dogs are a pain in the bum... I'd start putting a bunch of focus on that as well.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Usually all I would have to do as he was running back towards me with tug #1 was just raise tug #2 and he'd drop tug #1, but a few times, especially if he got off his rhythm, he'd want to keep #1 in his mouth even if I dangled and whipped tug #2 around.


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

not all dogs can be taught to out by giving them toys or cookies!


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

jack van strien said:


> not all dogs can be taught to out by giving them toys or cookies!


Or the 2 tug method either. By the time a real possessive dog gets compulsion from a long line or e-collar after positive methods where the dog can get away with not giving up the item it is ingrained in the dog's head that 'it' doesn't have to give up whatever it has in it's mouth. That to me is where the 'conflict' comes from for the dog. With these types of dogs the compulsion starts to late and is usually to soft to make any difference and just keeps getting escalated. It just ends up being harder on the handler and the dog in the long run as it was never clear for the dog in the beginning.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

jack van strien said:


> not all dogs can be taught to out by giving them toys or cookies!


Exactly 
Another example is teach blind search with out a helper then put helper in six and try it.
Is there a some sort of opposition to using a collar that's the cleanest and easiest.
With the helper Bite out, Bite out, Drive, Bite out, Bite out, Drive, Fake out, Drive, Fake out, drive, out, Bite out, Bite and win.
Mix it up lotso reps fast work in conjunction with the collar if and when needed no need to get trigger happy. Be sure and mix in the fake outs and drive so dog doesn't start auto outing at the lock I hate that.
This is one way it might work "just guessing though"


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

jack van strien said:


> not all dogs can be taught to out by giving them toys or cookies!


So what would be your suggestion in his case, Jack? I wanted to do it primarily motivationally because we had a dog at our old Schutzhund club that was under a TON of conflict under the out (Bob Scott knows this dog too). I'd rather wean the dog off of reward bites than weaning them off e-collars and prong collars, but that's just me.


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Maren,
Really hard for me to say without seeing anything or talking to you.
But to give you an idea*,*out means out*!*It is generally good to give a rebite as a reward but *only *if the dogs outs cleanly.Imo teaching the out has to be very black and white to the dog,if he likes to bite he will learn to accept compulsion out and then you can reward him.You may not have to use a lot of force at all but body language or voice can go a long way.Maybe you have some other handler who can help you?
Again i don;t know your dog and the circumstances but i would clean this up in an early stage,he will only get stronger if you dont.
After the out make sure his mind settless a bit before you give the rebite,make him think about it.
hope this helps you.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> So what would be your suggestion in his case, Jack? I wanted to do it primarily motivationally because we had a dog at our old Schutzhund club that was under a TON of conflict under the out (Bob Scott knows this dog too). I'd rather wean the dog off of reward bites than weaning them off e-collars and prong collars, but that's just me.


Could I make suggestions with opinions, meh I just will. 
I'm not trying to arguing with I'm telling you something there are lots more stupid dog trainers than there are smart ones. 
Some mofo shows up with a train wreck of a dog you blame the tools and not the methods am I understanding this wite. Pinch collars and e-collars work great if you know how to use them and there's lots of excellent ways to use them. Sounds like your only familiar with the bad?
I for one don't like to use a line for outs it's very easy to make conflict with who ever is behind the dog and there are other ways then from behind the dog. Any way depending on the dog it can and will load the dog. Put some shit and pain on a good dog it's not going to take it well put some shit on a nervy dog and its not going to take it well ether. So if things ain't clear in the communication or training relationship department or the people trying to help train the dog don't know what there doing its doing to be a fight or a train wreck and prolly both.
Go out and learn and UNDERSTAND different methods. 
All this mamby pamby pussy ass dog training is bullshit people are putting there dogs in the car for a time out WTF then what go sit and bull shit under the tent till the dog has has enough time to ponder his mistakes that will teach a dog all rite, figure it out be the pack leader.
Figure out the dog build trust make black and white and dog train and show them lotso love and be the leader. Its easy and simple:^o
JMO


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Mike Scheiber said:


> I'm not trying to arguing with I'm telling you something there are lots more stupid dog trainers than there are smart ones.
> Some mofo shows up with a train wreck of a dog you blame the tools and not the methods am I understanding this wite. Pinch collars and e-collars work great if you know how to use them and there's lots of excellent ways to use them. Sounds like your only familiar with the bad?
> I for one don't like to use a line for outs it's very easy to make conflict with who ever is behind the dog and there are other ways then from behind the dog. Any way depending on the dog it can and will load the dog. Put some shit and pain on a good dog it's not going to take it well put some shit on a nervy dog and its not going to take it well ether. So if things ain't clear in the communication or training relationship department or the people trying to help train the dog don't know what there doing its doing to be a fight or a train wreck and prolly both.
> Go out and learn and UNDERSTAND different methods.
> ...




AMEN! It's more about the trainer then the method.;-)


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I'm also confused. How do you do motivational yet need to wean off of prong collars or e collars. Secondly, why would you want to wean off of reward bites. You may vary the reinforcement in terms of how often you have to reinforce but total weaning? Are you correcting him with a prong or e-collar then trying to reward or positively reinforce when he finally does out? You've mentioned before that you MIX compulsion and reward. Just because you reinforce the desired reward doesn't negate the conflict or stress that you get with the compulsion, especially if you are in the teaching phase.


Terrasita


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Mike, I know my dog pretty well and I also know that putting a pretty high level of compulsion on him (like I often do for herding) is typically counter productive for him actually learning. I'm not a soft trainer either, but I don't want to rely on compulsion for what is usually MY mistakes (typically poor timing is my problem). 

But I do know that for a trial, you eventually have to wean the dog off both rewards and punishment, so not having to use a prong collar, slip collar, and e-collar, particularly all at once, would be my preference. Like now, it's just proving pretty damn hard to wean my dog off using a prong and a gut line for herding. Last week's herding session, he did really well and our instructor was thinking maybe he'd be able to move back to off leash work again. Tonight for whatever reason, it was like 3 steps backwards and I had to put a lot of compulsion on him to make him chill out just a smidge. Just saying I'd rather avoid training for protection sport in the same manner if I can help it because it seems when my dog is under conflict, they are not learning or at least it's at a snail's pace. 

Anyways, I've been meaning to buy the Michael Ellis DVD on playing tug with your dog for a while now, so this is probably the motivation I need to go ahead and get it. ;-)


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I'm also confused. How do you do motivational yet need to wean off of prong collars or e collars. Secondly, why would you want to wean off of reward bites. You may vary the reinforcement in terms of how often you have to reinforce but total weaning? Are you correcting him with a prong or e-collar then trying to reward or positively reinforce when he finally does out? You've mentioned before that you MIX compulsion and reward. Just because you reinforce the desired reward doesn't negate the conflict or stress that you get with the compulsion, especially if you are in the teaching phase.
> 
> 
> Terrasita


Motivational doesn't mean strictly 100% positive with no corrections, at least to me. I think of "purely positive" when I think of that (though it's somewhat debateable if that even exists, another thread for another time). You'd have to eventually wean off of reward bites just like you eventually have to wean off just about any reward (food, ball, etc) for a trial situation where it's not allowed. I usually do a variable reward schedule to achieve this. I also don't typically use compulsion beyond verbal correction in the teaching phase of anything, herding being the one exception (for the sake of my back in not getting pulled off my feet and for the sake of the sheep not getting munched on). 

So if I was going to choose to use compulsion in a case where I know beyond a shadow of a doubt he knows a cue word but does not comply, he would get corrected with either leash or e-collar correction and then a reward after he complies. I know it doesn't negate any stress or conflict, but I think it presents a clearer dichotomy in the dog's mind of making the good reward look even better. I think some stress is going to be there for him either way though. Even just 100% free shaping with a clicker or marker can be stressful for him (he'll start to bark in frustration) if he doesn't figure something out very very quickly.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

So you think the dog doesn't see even low level continuous stim as compulsion; i.e. stress? BTW, nothing in herding is sesssion to session. It takes a long time to establish consistent behaviors and the stock's behavior/demeanor plays a huge role in how the dog responds to that particular session. He may change depending on the vibes that he is getting from the stock. Its the contact with the stock that's sending him over the edge. As you've said, he will change from session to session if you are using heavy compulsion because he doesn't LEARN through compulsion. You have to have the patience to see certain things through.


Terrasita


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> So you think the dog doesn't see even low level continuous stim as compulsion; i.e. stress? BTW, nothing in herding is sesssion to session. It takes a long time to establish consistent behaviors and the stock's behavior/demeanor plays a huge role in how the dog responds to that particular session. He may change depending on the vibes that he is getting from the stock. Its the contact with the stock that's sending him over the edge. As you've said, he will change from session to session if you are using heavy compulsion because he doesn't LEARN through compulsion. You have to have the patience to see certain things through.
> 
> 
> Terrasita


No, I agree that low level continuous stim is compulsion. Absolutely. I'm not an SMS trainer that thinks it's a special boost or sending special communication signals to a dog or any of that. :lol: If the dog considers it an aversive (and they should, otherwise why use it, right?), it's part of the compulsion and it will likely be stressful. Regarding working stock, I can't help but think if we could work more than once a week, we would have made a bit more progress but it will come. Gawd, we were so close to last week! :-({|= Oh well, onwards and upwards...or sideways. Or backwards.. .#-o


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Motivational doesn't mean strictly 100% positive with no corrections, at least to me. I think of "purely positive" when I think of that (though it's somewhat debateable if that even exists, another thread for another time). You'd have to eventually wean off of reward bites just like you eventually have to wean off just about any reward (food, ball, etc) for a trial situation where it's not allowed. I usually do a variable reward schedule to achieve this. I also don't typically use compulsion beyond verbal correction in the teaching phase of anything, herding being the one exception (for the sake of my back in not getting pulled off my feet and for the sake of the sheep not getting munched on).
> 
> So if I was going to choose to use compulsion in a case where I know beyond a shadow of a doubt he knows a cue word but does not comply, he would get corrected with either leash or e-collar correction and then a reward after he complies. I know it doesn't negate any stress or conflict, but I think it presents a clearer dichotomy in the dog's mind of making the good reward look even better. I think some stress is going to be there for him either way though. Even just 100% free shaping with a clicker or marker can be stressful for him (he'll start to bark in frustration) if he doesn't figure something out very very quickly.


 
Yep, thinking from your previous posts, I thought I'd check in on your definition of motivational. I guess I never think in terms of weaning off the reward/reinforcement---just an intermittent schedule. Implicit in that is the fact that the mark/reinforcment might come at the conclusion of the routine or several throughout in random spaces. I tend to mixi it up a bit. So for the sake of this discussion, are you using the e collar or prong with the out? 

Terrasita


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Perhaps weaning was not quite the right word as it implies all rewards are cut off, which is not typically strictly true. Beyond about two weeks ago when I tried the e-collar once on a low continuous setting until he outed, no, I haven't used either at all in this application. My prong collars very rarely get used other than herding (if we have to go out somewhere and they absolutely are not allowed to pull, that's about the only other time) and the only time the e-collars get used is off leash out on the trails for the recall or if someone is barking in the crate in the car during training and they need a manners reminder. Other than that (and herding), we train about 90% positive. I say 90% because I still consider verbal corrections or minor and/or unintentional leash corrections on a flat buckle collar as corrections.


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Maren,
Playing tug is *not* the same as doing bitework,are you reading what people are telling you?Geoff made a great comment!
Do you undergo stress when you have to wait for a stoplight?You talk about the finished product but you should forget about that for now and work on solving the issues you have now.
Keep it simple and make *black and white *for the dog.How is your dog ever going to out if you do not give a command when you want him to out?
Dont look at other dogs too much each one is different.Imo you do not have to wean your dog from rebites either,if at a trial he will miss it only ones or twices,after that it is training again.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Could I make suggestions with opinions, meh I just will.
> I'm not trying to arguing with I'm telling you something there are lots more stupid dog trainers than there are smart ones.
> Some mofo shows up with a train wreck of a dog you blame the tools and not the methods am I understanding this wite. Pinch collars and e-collars work great if you know how to use them and there's lots of excellent ways to use them. Sounds like your only familiar with the bad?
> I for one don't like to use a line for outs it's very easy to make conflict with who ever is behind the dog and there are other ways then from behind the dog. Any way depending on the dog it can and will load the dog. Put some shit and pain on a good dog it's not going to take it well put some shit on a nervy dog and its not going to take it well ether. So if things ain't clear in the communication or training relationship department or the people trying to help train the dog don't know what there doing its doing to be a fight or a train wreck and prolly both.
> ...


I DO NOT compliance train. There is no weening of electric or pinches 
I wish I could show you or explain better **** dog board Im out


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

I gotta agree with jack etal

Black and white and no comparison to playing and bitework. Shoot helper to helper can not compare.

I just spent the last year redoing my foundation work, trying to clean my dog up as he would unload into the helper's chest, stomach, and face...not acceptable auto dq..and his outs were also not acceptable. So went back tried to get him to be more sleeve oriented, make it all a fun game... Things were looking good. Stuck him on a strong helper... Guess what happened!

Now I'm done pussyfooting around. On with the e-collar on a level that had hom more concerned with the collar than bitting... Three sessions later I don't have to touch the button almost at all. Very black and white. 

Too me it sounds like when he became even more chewy from your one session of compulsion/ ecollar use you blamed the compulsion... When I read what you wrote it sounds like you gave him some stim.. He still had time to think about outing because he was being nagged and not strongly corrected... Out is out... Then u gave it up and too quickly said it not working..its not gonna happen in one session, you didn't get there in one session. Black and white, turn it up and give a few sessions... 

Jmo
T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I have watched a couple of no outers become clean and consistent with marker training and zero compulsion. The key was patience. Its interesting that with the stress of the helper the dog reverted to default. I think as you are training you have to work your way through varying the helper/stimulus. Everytime you change the stimulus, you may have to back up in your training to train the dog to that stimulus. Dogs are highly specific. 

I'd have to agree though about the naggy thing. I was taught long ago, if you are going to go to correction, take it to the level that you need to be effective and be done with it. Naggy corrections are worthless. On the other hand depending on the hardness of the dog I have felt that the level needed was too much for my taste. The thread started with changing the cue which implies conflict with the old cue. I'm with whoever said start over and start from scratch. For me these days, that includes true shaping. I actually did this with one of my herding dogs. Its been a long haul but it has taught me a lot about how dogs process information. I also wonder about the use of the marker as the RELEASE. If it truly is a release there are no rules for after you mark. For instance, you mark the out of the toy but you demand that he only be interested in the second toy. That violates the rule of the game. You just tossed in negatives in the reward phase of the exercise. What you see as reward and what the dog sees may be two different things. If he outs it, who cares if he picks that one up. You also have to examine if you are using a reward that's really valuable enough that he will execute the desired behavior. You're assuming that a thrown toy from you is reward enough for releasing the toy. Is it? Or does it impose more conflict for the dog. 

As for the herding, there are things you can do to deal with him pulling on a line besides that thing around his middle and collars. Yes, multiple sessions in a week are ideal. However, determining what contact he can handle by determining his flight/fight zone in relationship to the stock is a start. Saw a lot at the Mal national. Dogs trained and with collars what NOT to do but never trained the desired behavior. You can't deal with the dog's worry about interaction by punishing what is a symptom, not the problem. You just create more worry and anxiety.

Terrasita


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

tracey delin said:


> Black and white, turn it up and give a few sessions...
> 
> Jmo
> T


Hard to say for this dog particularly, but I also say crank it up if the dog is strong. I played the out game and then stopped playing around. 
If the dog knows it, it should do it. IMO...especially on the "out"
you can crank it up ans still reward for clean and fast.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Maren, where is he at in the bitework now? Ie what is he biting on (sleeve, suit, ??), where is he biting, are you working out/guards, out/recalls, ?? Are there some situations where the outs are better then others, ie he outs fine for an out/guard but is sticky in the recalls, or he outs fine off the sleeve but not the suit, ??

Whatever you decide to do, you HAVE to do it calmly. If you are thrashing around with the correction, ie "shaking him", or it's just done in a jerky manner, chances are real good it's just going to amp him up and make him fight back. I know exactly where he's going when you say he's not thinking with the compulsion. His dad does it, and so does his half sister. If you have to up the level of correction, do so, but do it CALMLY. Calm voice, calm body language, and even calm corrections.

Video would be helpful, but I'll also PM you some information.


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## Charles Guyer (Nov 6, 2009)

There is a PM waiting on ya.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

chances are real good it's just going to amp him up and make him fight back. 

This is a huge issue in livestock--corrections and handler mood creating grips, frustration and hectic work.

Terrasita


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Thanks for everyone's thoughts, especially Mr. Guyer (who I should listen to most of all ). Okay, so slightly new game plan. I think one change I'm going to do is encourage the game of tug as the reward instead of the object itself. Letting him have his own victory lap a la Flinks has probably made him more possessive of the tug. Me and Lynda also worked a little bit after training last night and it seemed to help a bit. Except Fawkes accidentally nailed me upper thigh today going after a tug. Ouch.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Sonofabitch, he got the other one like 2 minutes ago. OUCH. Lynda, your method must be best for bulldogs. :-({|= :lol:


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Actually, I saw it first on the Balabanov tapes. Then of course there was the RWDC gang. There's a website somewhere I remember watching with the Michael Ellis version. He had a couple of interesting strategies for when women in particular are over powered and just sheer technique in presentation and such. There was also the section regarding how NOT to get bit. You got it easy. Have you seen Lynda TRY to lock up Rook on a tug. That took some doing. At least mals are lightweight compared to the ABs.

T


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Actually, I saw it first on the Balabanov tapes. Then of course there was the RWDC gang. There's a website somewhere I remember watching with the Michael Ellis version. He had a couple of interesting strategies for when women in particular are over powered and just sheer technique in presentation and such. There was also the section regarding how NOT to get bit. You got it easy. Have you seen Lynda TRY to lock up Rook on a tug. That took some doing. At least mals are lightweight compared to the ABs.
> 
> T


Lightweight Malinois'?!?!? In my dreams Terrasita :lol: My boy probably weighs 75 + pounds and I wish he was a lightweight ;-)

Ask Michael about his lock up technique when Rico was 8 months old :-\" Took him probably 20 minutes to out the dog!! Just kept waiting and waiting....and waiting. Wasn't sure who was going to give in first! I could never out muscle the dog!

We've gone to a back tie bungee with two prongs...he has a clean out now :smile: Viola c 'est ;-)


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Hey Candy, your boy is special  Remember, his brother outs easily and quickly when I tell him. Whole new set of issues for me with him being so sensitive...:roll:


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Hahahaha. Touche!! I don't think they used Rico on the video Bob loaned me. Although seems like there was a GSD happy to show what the handler looks like outpowered by a dog. I learned the technique with a lightweight corgi pup. I never thought about being outpowered by a dog until we got our male bouv Thor. I watch Lynda tug with Rook and think "ohhh hell no, I like my back." I'm all for drive satisfaction through the handler but there has got to be a better way. 


T


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Hahahaha. Touche!! I don't think they used Rico on the video Bob loaned me. Although seems like there was a GSD happy to show what the handler looks like outpowered by a dog. I learned the technique with a lightweight corgi pup. I never thought about being outpowered by a dog until we got our male bouv Thor. I watch Lynda tug with Rook and think "ohhh hell no, I like my back." I'm all for drive satisfaction through the handler but there has got to be a better way.
> 
> 
> T





Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Hahahaha. Touche!! I don't think they used Rico on the video Bob loaned me. Although seems like there was a GSD happy to show what the handler looks like outpowered by a dog. I learned the technique with a lightweight corgi pup. I never thought about being outpowered by a dog until we got our male bouv Thor. I watch Lynda tug with Rook and think "ohhh hell no, I like my back." I'm all for drive satisfaction through the handler but there has got to be a better way.
> 
> 
> T


No T, Rico was busy that weekend of the movie shoot :lol: 

 I've been outpowered by Rico more times than I care to admit. I do think I've seen a little smile on his face every time it happens :razz: My last vertabre is fractured from breaking horses as a kid, so I can relate to you and Linda both. I do think that drive satisifaction through the handler is overrated, especially with BIG dogs :razz:

Mike and Ivan's method is great for some/most dogs. In our case I waited too long for him to get big and opinionated ;-)~ Before that we did exchanges for food, gulp, grab the toy back. Two toys method too. But then you have him trying to stuff both in his mouth. Butthead ;-)

The method we went to worked/is working great for him. It's not the answer for all out issues with other dogs who are less possessive and more sensitive.


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Anna Kasho said:


> Hey Candy, your boy is special  Remember, his brother outs easily and quickly when I tell him. Whole new set of issues for me with him being so sensitive...:roll:


Special indeed :roll: Your boy is very compliant and trained well! I think they were switched at birth ;-)~ 

Not sure I should say this with my out loud voice but I might prefer the buttheaded-ness to being overly sensitive  But I would like to know what sensitive feels like, even for a day Wanna trade?! LOL


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## Lynda Myers (Jul 16, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Letting him have his own victory lap a la Flinks has probably made him more possessive of the tug. Me and Lynda also worked a little bit after training last night and it seemed to help a bit.





Maren Bell Jones said:


> Sonofabitch, he got the other one like 2 minutes ago. OUCH. Lynda, your method must be best for bulldogs.


What??? helped a little bit? Did you find some shrooms in the field and then didn't share them?:mrgreen:
When we parted ways last night Fawkes was outing off the tug cleanly and without any struggle on your part. Yes at the start he made a grab for the tug a couple times but that was it. What were you doing today that was causing him to regrip? Last night when you did as I instructed Faux gave you the behavior you looking for 6-7 times in a row and then we stopped for the evening.

Truly I don't think your being fair to Fawkes at all. He is not the delinquent your making him out to be on this board. When you were clear, black and white no gray with what you wanted he delivered the goods. 
What you were doing last night was Fawkes brought the tug back near you and dropped it you clicked and threw the other tug. Or he sometimes would pick up the one just dropped. Then we progressed to you taking hold of the tug in both hands and braced it against your leg to immobilize it. He responded by out the tug you waited a couple seconds clicked and rewarded with the other tug. He did this several times. Then when we were sure he would out of his own accord you added the out command upon locking up the tug. Again he responded by outting the tug you clicked and rewarded with the other tug. So what happened between then and the next time you trying to work it? 

Honestly Maren it doesn't matter what method of training a person uses. The important thing is to decide on one and stick to it. This means longer the a day or two. 

My personal choice is to use the motivational (purely) method. I'm well aware of how compulsion works as I cut my teeth on Kohler. Actually still have his book Kohler's Method of Guard dog Training on my shelf. I trained that way quite a few years (not as long as Bob:wink and shut down a few otherwise good dogs over battle of wills. 
When I found out that training could be both happy and rewarding it set me free. And on those occasions when we didn't see eye to eye all I needed to do was put the dog up. That's when training became alot fun.

I get the best out my dogs for several reasons one they respect me as the leader and I didn't get it by inflicting any pain or forcing them to see it my way. Two...my dogs see me as the best thing since slice white bread because I make training fun and try to make everything a game...Bulldogs love to play! Third when I'm having an issue with teaching a behavior. I cheat:-\" and call Terrasita or Bob. And try to set up a time where one of them can come out and watch us work. To help pin point where the problem is and fix it. Either one of them is great at reading a dog and getting in a dog's head. However of the two Terrasita is the most patient person I know when it comes to dogs and doesn't deal in anything but the facts.

Now as to my method best for bulldogs. LOL No Ivan B. is the man and I borrowed some of his stuff without the compulsion part for proofing. Because I believe if you trained it right to begin with there's no need for proofing. Ya just need to train it in and for most situations you intent to work the dog in.
I also like Michael Ellis again without the compulsion component.

All of my dogs except Rook out great. Rook will and does default to what he was taught. I taught Rook early on not to out! ](*,) That to release/out a toy or tug resulted in you may not get it back. And would tease him with it in the house, act like Iwas going to get it out and play etc. I had no clue it would come back to bite me later.](*,) 

Plus we didn't get that far in his training to out off a sleeve with the other club. So that's stage where we're at in the game teaching the out off the suit and sleeve. But it's difficult because Rook is a hard biting powerful dog and it's no easy task of just locking up the sleeve or suit on him. In this department the bull breeds approach to control is different because they use every ounce of their weight to stop the helper. Which stands to reason as they were bred to catch/stop animals weighting a mere couple hundred pounds up to over a thousand pounds in the case of cattle.

Anyways don't fret the small stuff just listen Grayson and remember it takes as long as it takes.\\/ C ya at training!


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

I agree with you Candy. I did much like you, but a strong minded/ willed/ hard dog that is genetically geared a certain way is gonna need more than a softer dog or a dog that is maybe not quite as "strong minded/ willed/ hard", and I def. prefer the butt-heads ](*,) But one thing for certain, and I agree with Lynda here, pick a poison and stick it out. It may not look so hot on day one or day two but with anything give it some time. Bouncing around and trying this then that and not giving any consistency will only confuse the dog more. 

I have to say it comes across linda like you are saying folks that use compulsion dont get the best out of their dogs or have dogs that dont think they are all that..... if so, I couldnt disagree more with that statement. Names that come to mind as the top of the game all use compulsion....

I use positive methods on my dogs but I also use compulsion and they STILL think Im the greatest thing since sliced bread...(and I know I dont stand alone here lol) literally within a second of a hard correction......its called recovery. O 

jmo
t


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I have watched a couple of no outers become clean and consistent with marker training and zero compulsion. The key was patience. Its interesting that with the stress of the helper the dog reverted to default. I think as you are training you have to work your way through varying the helper/stimulus. Everytime you change the stimulus, you may have to back up in your training to train the dog to that stimulus. Dogs are highly specific.
> 
> I'd have to agree though about the naggy thing. I was taught long ago, if you are going to go to correction, take it to the level that you need to be effective and be done with it. Naggy corrections are worthless. On the other hand depending on the hardness of the dog I have felt that the level needed was too much for my taste. The thread started with changing the cue which implies conflict with the old cue. I'm with whoever said start over and start from scratch. For me these days, that includes true shaping. I actually did this with one of my herding dogs. Its been a long haul but it has taught me a lot about how dogs process information. I also wonder about the use of the marker as the RELEASE. If it truly is a release there are no rules for after you mark. For instance, you mark the out of the toy but you demand that he only be interested in the second toy. That violates the rule of the game. You just tossed in negatives in the reward phase of the exercise. What you see as reward and what the dog sees may be two different things. If he outs it, who cares if he picks that one up. You also have to examine if you are using a reward that's really valuable enough that he will execute the desired behavior. You're assuming that a thrown toy from you is reward enough for releasing the toy. Is it? Or does it impose more conflict for the dog.
> 
> ...


Terrasita, I love reading your posts. I don't know many dog people who think things through like you do. I can never "whizz" through your posts, try as I do!

Also about the "naggy" thing and taking the level of correction to the level you need to - I am in favour of a "Ende ohne Schrecken" than a "Schreclem ohne Emde " translated "Better an end with terror than terror without end" too. It doesn't have to be "terror"!

This thread has opened my eyes a bit to my own doings. This morning, as in Schutzdienst with our new decoy (experienced) I told my dog to sit after rewarding him with the ball on tug line but he "downed" where he "outs" without problem, so I made him sit and then said "out" - no murmur from "Gott" so I used the force I had at hand and he outed whereupon I rewarded with a piece of kibble.

The younger dog has problem outing from "sit" even doesn't want to sit and I am beginning to think that I'm warning them. Maybe it's not even good on the sleeve. 

However, if I say "sit" the dog has to sit so I enforce it. The "out" is more difficult but here I find if I give an order, falsely or not, the dog has to obey. I reward as I watched Ronny van den Berghe and thought at the time I didn't need to but maybe it helps.

When the younger dog didn't "out" the tug, I "tweaked" his ear, the tug was released but the second time I had to "tweak" his ear again which either tells me the "tweak on ear was too weak" or did not bear any learning process.


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## Lynda Myers (Jul 16, 2008)

tracey delin said:


> I have to say it comes across linda like you are saying folks that use compulsion dont get the best out of their dogs or have dogs that dont think they are all that..... if so, I couldnt disagree more with that statement. Names that come to mind as the top of the game all use compulsion....
> 
> I use positive methods on my dogs but I also use compulsion and they STILL think Im the greatest thing since sliced bread...(and I know I dont stand alone here lol) literally within a second of a hard correction......its called recovery. O
> 
> ...


But of course I know this. The two trainers (Ivan B. and Michael E.) I've pattern my training from both use compulsion and compete at a high level as you mentioned. I'm just curious to know if they could have reach that level without the compulsion.

Ya know it's funny anytime someone states that they train purely motivational those that don't almost always wanna make this argument and feel the need to defend their method.:-k I never said others don't get the best or think their dogs aren't all that. Those are your words not mine. I simply explain how "I" Lynda, get the best out of mine dogs!
It's true I think compulsion training is very problematic especially for people who are challenge in the timing department. As well as thinking it sometimes creates frustration and hecticness where there doesn't need to be any. But there again that's my own personal opinion and it doesn't have to be yours. 

Here's the flip to your statement people that don't train as I do frequently assume or imply that dogs trained with the method I use are weak and can't handle a correction...which is also just as incorrect.

I will tell anyone if you take issue with my words regarding the method of training I use. Ya might want to revisit why you train the way ya do. 

Here it is in a nutshell some approach training from a physical aspect while others prefer a more mental approach...the difference being time spent.:mrgreen:


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

tracey delin said:


> I have to say it comes across linda like you are saying folks that use compulsion dont get the best out of their dogs or have dogs that dont think they are all that..... if so, I couldnt disagree more with that statement. Names that come to mind as the top of the game all use compulsion....
> 
> I use positive methods on my dogs but I also use compulsion and they STILL think Im the greatest thing since sliced bread...(and I know I dont stand alone here lol) literally within a second of a hard correction......its called recovery. O
> 
> ...


Linda said:

Two...my dogs see me as the best thing since slice white bread because I make training fun and try to make everything a game...Bulldogs love to play!


Okay,

Lynda is not saying those that use compulsion don't get good trial results or that they have less of a relationship with their dogs. Read what she said. Her dogs think she is the best thing since sliced bread because she keeps it fun. FUN is her personality. She bubbles over with it. Since I'm lacking in play drive personality-wise, I have the utmost appreciation for this talent. Not everyone has it and it can be a gold mine in dog training. Fun is how she relates to her dogs and she feels it is what makes their training relationship what it is. This has nothing to do with compulsion vs. marker training. Most of us and Lynda included have something in the dogs that we demand that they do and its because we say so pure and simple. Lynda, as I do, distinguish the training/learning/teaching phase from what we do when we feel the dog truly KNOWS the behavior. I'm big on distinguishing amongst my dogs who is the generalist and who is specific to a fault. How they land on that line greatly determines the determination on what they know. Hence, the vary the stimulus level, location, etc. before I decide what is trained and what the dog knows. 

This thread started with the premise that the particular dog is hectic with compulsion or that it impedes his learning process. So the discussion turned to alternatives. Its not about compulsion vs. marker regarding every dog and every trainer. 

Also, Lynda touched upon the leadership aspect. You have to have this I believe regardless of what teaching method you employ. I'm similar to Lynda in that I don't rely on externals to get this. Its my demeanor and consistency when I'm raising them. Sometimes with a dog/handler team its not the method that is the issue but the true essence of the pack relationship between the dog and the handler. The flip side of leadership is conflict. There is a way to have clear leadership without the conflict in training and trial performance. This is what I think we are all striving for and how you get it can vary depending on the dog handler team.

Terrasita


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Its the way you word things.....and maybe its just me and maybe you missed the part where I said "it comes across as" and "if so". As you are generalizing what folks think of your training style, I feel you are also generalizing. 

Could they (IB/ ME) have reached it without compulsion? If they could why would you think they would choose not to? Im curious to your answer....

I certainly dont feel the need to defend compulsion on a basis of whether it works or not, proof is in the pudding... it works that is pretty undebatable IMO. I also dont train my dogs in "compulsion" .....I actually prefer "balanced" training but I feel like you are lumping them together....which is where I feel the need to comment. 

A straight up question......do you agree with this coming from someone who uses compulsion? "I can get the best out my dogs for several reasons one they respect me as the leader and my dogs see me as the best thing since slice white bread because I make training fun and try to make everything a game" ?



> "It's true I think compulsion training is very problematic especially for people who are challenge in the timing department."


 This is an interesting statement to me, as I think reward based training can also be problematic if the timing isnt right....timing is everything. 


"Here's the flip to your statement people that don't train as I do frequently assume or imply that dogs trained with the method I use are weak and can't handle a correction...which is also just as incorrect." Generalizing......I never said that. How would anyone know how a dog would handle a correction who has never been corrected? I will state I absolutley do not believe all dogs can be trained that way and the stronger willed and the stronger minded the harder it will be.....](*,) 



> "I will tell anyone if you take issue with my words regarding the method of training I use. Ya might want to revisit why you train the way ya do. "


Not sure what that is about? do whatever makes you happy.\\/



> "Here it is in a nutshell some approach training from a physical aspect while others prefer a more mental approach...the difference being time spent."


What about those that train with a balance? :-D

t


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Linda said:
> 
> Two...my dogs see me as the best thing since slice white bread because I make training fun and try to make everything a game...Bulldogs love to play!
> 
> ...



Thank you Terrasita, you write very well in explaining it..... I was writing my post I guess as you were......I also employ the "acting" into our training to make it fun.... doesnt always look or sound pretty but they sure do like it.....

t


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

tracey delin said:


> Thank you Terrasita, you write very well in explaining it..... I was writing my post I guess as you were......I also employ the "acting" into our training to make it fun.... doesnt always look or sound pretty but they sure do like it.....
> 
> t


Tracy,

The key is that you and I have learned to act it. I am very consicious of my voice tones and how I communicate with my play drive dog. With her I can kinda fake it. She's not that deep. With my GSDs who can go beyond my surface, I was a total failure. My bouv is better foundation trained and I have more confidence I think on the trial field because of it so I relax in my handling. I'm in the process of trying to be mentally in trial handling what I am in training so my dogs don't think I'm the imposter at the post and it screws them up. My bouv is also more biddable. Lynda isn't acting and maybe that's just it--her dogs know it. Look at Rook with that "I just WUUUUVVVVVV you" adoration. He goes into drive as he comes into the bubble of her presence. Its something really interesting to see. Interaction with her is the reward and it goes beyond his marker training. Granted we got together and put together a gradual schedule of paces to get him to 300 paces, but really and truly he'll do it with or without obvious opportunity for reward. A lot of this I think is Rook's temperament and personality. However, Lynda [along w/ Bob] stuck out when I first started watching them train. Bob and Thunder for absolute precision. Lynda for always having a obvious routine and for that super happy work and attention that all her dogs have exhibited. Neither one of us wouldn't hesitate to step in and say knock that crap off if it warranted. I guess we just don't do it with external equipment. Its all about the relationship and the dog's respect. Its what we exude internally. The way I like to work a dog in livestock work does not involve blind compliance to borrow a term. Its a partnership where at times I need the dog to make a decision or see something I can't so being clear as to when its obedience and when its not can be a challenge. 

Gotta get ready to go slop around in the mud.

T


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Lynda Myers said:


> What??? helped a little bit? Did you find some shrooms in the field and then didn't share them?:mrgreen:
> When we parted ways last night Fawkes was outing off the tug cleanly and without any struggle on your part. Yes at the start he made a grab for the tug a couple times but that was it. What were you doing today that was causing him to regrip? Last night when you did as I instructed Faux gave you the behavior you looking for 6-7 times in a row and then we stopped for the evening.
> 
> Truly I don't think your being fair to Fawkes at all. He is not the delinquent your making him out to be on this board. When you were clear, black and white no gray with what you wanted he delivered the goods.
> What you were doing last night was Fawkes brought the tug back near you and dropped it you clicked and threw the other tug. Or he sometimes would pick up the one just dropped. Then we progressed to you taking hold of the tug in both hands and braced it against your leg to immobilize it. He responded by out the tug you waited a couple seconds clicked and rewarded with the other tug. He did this several times. Then when we were sure he would out of his own accord you added the out command upon locking up the tug. Again he responded by outting the tug you clicked and rewarded with the other tug. So what happened between then and the next time you trying to work it?


We did the same thing as the other night but when I either clicked or said yes, he went for the same tug he outed out, driving into my upper thigh (and pinching skin, ouch!). Both times he did it, I tried to not make a huge production out of it (other than yelling "YOWCH!!" cause it really rather hurt, LOL) and I put him up for a bit. Then we tried again about a half an hour later or so and it happened on the other leg (because my right leg was already bruising up nicely). He didn't do that like the very first repetition or anything on either repetition. Maybe a dozen repetition into it? 




> Now as to my method best for bulldogs. LOL No Ivan B. is the man and I borrowed some of his stuff without the compulsion part for proofing. Because I believe if you trained it right to begin with there's no need for proofing. Ya just need to train it in and for most situations you intent to work the dog in.
> I also like Michael Ellis again without the compulsion component.


LOL, sorry, I wasn't making a comment on the technique was only good for bulldogs, I was making a joke that since bulldogs have flatter faces, they may not pinch you as badly as a Malinois would driving in as Fawkes did. 




> Anyways don't fret the small stuff just listen Grayson and remember it takes as long as it takes.\\/ C ya at training!


I'm a small stuff kinda person. I will try harder to chill out. :mrgreen:


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> We did the same thing as the other night but when I either clicked or said yes, he went for the same tug he outed out, driving into my upper thigh (and pinching skin, ouch!). Both times he did it, I tried to not make a huge production out of it (other than yelling "YOWCH!!" cause it really rather hurt, LOL) and I put him up for a bit. Then we tried again about a half an hour later or so and it happened on the other leg (because my right leg was already bruising up nicely). He didn't do that like the very first repetition or anything on either repetition. Maybe a dozen repetition into it?


Why don't you just be ready to present the one tug to him. Otherwise, you're correcting in the reward part of it. If you are using "the game" of tug as the reward, why work with two. The timing between presenting the second fast enough can be a probem. Out, click, re-engage as the sequence?

T


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Well I dont know..... Im as much of a clown as my dogs are naturally..... maybe that is why i love them so lol..... and its in the bulldogs and thats why we love them lol, because my dogs and definitely my better dogs can go into overdrive over just about a smile.... where I bring in the acting is if I have a dog that doesnt have that sense of easily accessible drive, or I have to use compulsion and I feel the need to balance or if we have mentally struggled a bit into exhaustion..... then I may act the fool a lil more 

t


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

tracey delin said:


> Could they (IB/ ME) have reached it without compulsion? If they could why would you think they would choose not to? Im curious to your answer....
> 
> I certainly dont feel the need to defend compulsion on a basis of whether it works or not, proof is in the pudding... it works that is pretty undebatable IMO. I also dont train my dogs in "compulsion" .....I actually prefer "balanced" training but I feel like you are lumping them together....which is where I feel the need to comment.
> 
> ...


I really don't get this at all. Whether IB or ME uses compulsion is not indicative that they couldn't get the results without using compulsion. All you can say is that is what THEY chose. Whichever tool you employ really comes down to the dog and in some cases just plain old handler preference. You are preaching to the choir on timing. We already know Timing is every thing in marker training. Furthermore, who said a marker trainer NEVER corrects a dog. Again, we distinguish between the learning phase and after we are sure the dog knows it. Its also how you define correction. I don't use the external collar approach. If I correct its with voice and demeanor; and rarely physically although with some dogs that has happened in their lifetimes. Part of the marker training premise is not to use correction/compulsion or whatever the buzz word of the moment to TEACH a behavior. Next comes the issue of when the dog chooses to disobey the cue/command and you are positive that he knows the corresponding behavior. How you deal with that can vary and is a whole different subject and thread. 

Terrasita


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Maren I can fully understand the method you are trying to emulate.... does anyone have the DVD you can borrow it may explain it better.....

t


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

> I really don't get this at all. Whether IB or ME uses compulsion is not indicative that they couldn't get the results without using compulsion. All you can say is that is what THEY chose.


Well yeah exactly...its not indicative either way..... she said she was curious if they could, I am asking if they could why she thinks they chose not to? 



> Whichever tool you employ really comes down to the dog and in some cases just plain old handler preference.


I agree



> You are preaching to the choir on timing. We already know Timing is every thing in marker training.


Not preaching just playing back and twisting in the opposite direction exactly how Lynda did... a "vs" type of thing.:-D



> Furthermore, who said a marker trainer NEVER corrects a dog.


I dont know? Who said that? I use marker training and I use compulsion. I didnt think we were talking about marker training? I thought we were talking about "no compulsion" training??



> Again, we distinguish between the learning phase and after we are sure the dog knows it. ...... Part of the marker training premise is not to use correction/compulsion or whatever the buzz word of the moment to TEACH a behavior.


Agreed....

Im not sure what is going on 8-[.... Im getting more confused than ever and think maybe a MB isnt the best place for this conversation????

t


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

tracey delin said:


> Maren I can fully understand the method you are trying to emulate.... does anyone have the DVD you can borrow it may explain it better.....
> 
> t


I actually just ordered the Michael Ellis Power of Playing Tug DVD just the other day. Hopefully it will be here this weekend as I've heard even seasoned folks can get a lot out of it. I do get the basic gist of it. My other Mal Lily I'm working in PSA has a beautiful out and I taught her the same as Fawkes, it's just that she doesn't care that much for the object once it is dead and she doesn't have near the possessive streak that Fawkes has. Like if we play tug and I let her have a victory lap with the tug, she puts it back down on the ground after running with it 2-3 yards and then looks back at me like "uh, now what?" whereas Fawkes will run at least three to four times as far before he'll come back. Obviously no two dogs are the same, so I started the thread to get some other ideas. Figured it would be an issue others have as well, so it'd be an interesting topic to discuss.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> she doesn't have near the possessive streak that Fawkes has. Like if we play tug and I let her have a victory lap with the tug, she puts it back down on the ground after running with it 2-3 yards and then looks back at me like "uh, now what?" whereas Fawkes will run at least three to four times as far before he'll come back.


LOL that's because Fawke's mom is one possessive bitch. And I use that term multiple ways :lol:


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Just got home a bit ahead of sunset and I switched to the big thicker French linen tug instead of the thinner smaller firehose tugs (for the sake of my upper legs, haha). We worked on heeling and the flip finish. So I'd mark and reward him with the tug, but I wouldn't let go of it and let the tugging be the reward instead of the tug itself. I also quit the game immediately and went back inside for at least 10 minutes if he made a cheap shot for the tug after he outed but before I marked something. I'll be keeping sessions short and just stop the game if he gets difficult.

Kadi, glad to know Chaos contributed her better attributes. :lol: Btw, thanks for the PM. Video would be fabulous if you can, but if you cannot, no big deal.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Maren, you'll enjoy the Ellis DVD. He teaches the out and shows how to avoid being bit on the rebite for reward if I'm not mistaken.
Michael Ellis explains his methods with why and why nots better then ANY taining video I've ever seen.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> This morning, as in Schutzdienst with our new decoy (experienced) I told my dog to sit after rewarding him with the ball on tug line but he "downed" where he "outs" without problem, so I made him sit and then said "out" - no murmur from "Gott" so I used the force I had at hand and he outed whereupon I rewarded with a piece of kibble.
> 
> The younger dog has problem outing from "sit" even doesn't want to sit and I am beginning to think that I'm warning them. Maybe it's not even good on the sleeve.
> 
> ...


Hi Gillian:

Your scenarios do make me think. Okay, Lynda trying to help me with this. I'm trying to understand what actually happened. 1) you rewarded the dog with the ball on a line. 2) told him sit 3 )instead, he downed which is what he usually does with the out?? 4) you "made" him sit 5) give out command; 6) no response from the dog; 6) use force/ correction; 7) dog outs; 8) reward.

It seems your dog has been worked one way---tug, tug, tug, down, out. You now want him to tug, tug, tug, SIT, out. He downs down and out. He doesn't know sit and out. He's confused. You chained certain behaviors together and now you want to change the chain. Dogs are specific. I train one that can be specific to certain geographical spots. 

I guess I'm a little different. I wouldn't have corrected the dog. 

As for the younger dog, are you saying he won't sit because he anticipates the out issue? As for the ear tweaking, I guess my answer would be "both." 

T


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I guess I'm not good at explaining what I'm doing although I wouldn't call myself illiterate. For the first time in my life I'm writing about dog sport in English but I'm thinking in Swiss German and I'm picturing myself with them out on the training field.

When I rewarded the older dog with ball tug and then called him to me, he came, unwillingly but he came. When I said "sit" he'd try to shuffle backwards away from me so that I couldn't get hold of the tug. I've got this so that he'll sit and I can take the ball off him. If I call out without touching the ball when he's sitting, he downs and spits it out. 

He's an extremely possessive dog. I met with resistance with the sit and out. I've probably dropped a stitch or two in the development, maybe sometimes accepting down and out. Will see how he reacts next time.

Our decoys don't like stereotyped actions, i.e. positions, and try to vary the training. If they give the dog the sleeve some go immediately up to the handler and sit with it quietly in their mouths. If mine is given the sleeve he does a "victory round" before coming back and then downs nearby. 

He bites well, outs well, is fast and maybe I'm "mentally fighting" the things that I don't see as 100 %necessary.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Well, I think its why folks call for video. Hard to put it in words so others can visualize. Lynda and I can probably complete each other sentences but there are times she is trying to describe something to me and I still can't see it so I have to get in the car and meet her somewhere and have her demo. So you're saying he outs off the decoy clean and his tug. You want him to bring it to you so you can take it ? It sounds similar to Maren. You might teach him to tug and out with you still maintaining control of the tug. Instead of making possession the reward, make tugging/engagement with you the reward. 

I'm no good at looking at this stuff from a correction standpoint. I learned the tug game from Steve Pettit and the RWDC gang and Balabanov. I have one dog that I trained purely positive and with shaping and I can go weeks without working those behaviors and he does them on the dime. Steve also worked him in bitework and I trained him with a tug toy and worked his outs as I'd seen the RWDC folks do and Balabanov. He was consistent working off Steve with the out as he was with is tug. Balabanov's training on the video is a good system to work with. I remember watching Steve and others for several weeks before I started the tug work. I do have this belief that bad tug work at home can transfer to bad work off the decoy; but that's just me. Following all the rules of intermittent rewards and increasing the criteria, I know I could compete with him in obedience without adversives. Its like these behaviors are ingrained in him. He doesn't even think about them. My dogs that are inconsistent are the ones that were trained more on the because I say so [I don't do physical corrections really to enforce]. The most reliable and consistent behaviors I have in any of my dogs are the marker trained ones. 

A couple of years ago I decided to go totally marker with my herding training and the AKC A Course. I broke the A Course down into 27 positioning behaviors that the dog needed and set about marker training these. The first trial, I discovered I had created what I hate--a position trained dog. To trial, they go from working at home to working somewhere different with different stock. You could tell she was totally confused as to how to do positions and control stock. So she defaulted to the positions that were marker trained and never did in the run really take control of the stock. I had a few conversations with Brian Pettit about his hunting dogs and marker training and decided that I needed to now address the stock--dog relationship and with a marker. So back to the drawing board with marking stock control/interaction. To prepare for the next trial I spent a couple of weeks with variable reinforcement with the reward at the completion of the course or various spots within. She trialed gorgeous. No complaints. However, the next trial I didn't have time for all that variable and she was so, so. One issue I ran into was a reversion to default with different stock mentality. Time to change the stock. But, I still wasn't satisfied even though the command compliance was coming along. I want the dogs to know the job. I don't want to tell them to put a paw step here and put a paw step there. Sooo, I increased the criteria---control of the stock and holding the line to the obstacle without me telling you how to do it. I can't even tell you how many days and repetitions this took. I set her on the drive line and then sat there and watched her figure out that she had to maintain the right positions to control it. No marker/reward unless she made it. If she missed, it was "no, sorry, try again or almost." The last couple of weeks I started to see progress with her controlling the stock, understanding the progression on the course and pretty good compliance with command. Last night at Purina Farms, I knew she finally had it. Now its time for a different criteria change--change the stimulus [stock] and another location change. 

This dog is interesting. I generally refer to her as a union employee. We went through the stage of as long as there was some external reward [food] somewhere in the scenario she was fine. Lately, I've phased that out and she works for pets from me [a unique feature of hers]. I also have to say though as she put all aspects together, intermittent rewards became less important to her if that makes any sense. Dogs do like it when they understand what you want. I learned years ago with the first dog that I trained with markers that dogs desparately want to know what right is. I continue to raise the bar on the criteria. I send you on an outrun and you blast the lift point---game over, access denied. Reset and start over. Part of the reward for a stock dog is continued engagement. I think alot of marker failure is that the handler really hasn't run the gamut on raising the criteria and varying the stimulus. You have to see it through and be able to read the dog and its TIME consuming. 

I don't have soft dogs or handler sensitive dogs. Most have an independent streak. Traditional herding is conflict city. We can't control the mentality of the decoy/sheep. Traditional training goes about shutting down drive and some trial work is based solely on obedience placement. The marker training for me involves less stress and conflict with the dog. All it is is a communication system. It allows me to establish in a very clear cut fashion that the dog understands, what RIGHT is. 

I think that it would be helpful that those that use a more correction based system discuss the various phases of the training in terms of how they get the dog to understand what they WANT them to do vs. what they don't. I think that's more helpful for people who mix the two or use corrections in the teaching phase. I don't think that discussion should involve marker vs. correction. Its for the correction folks to put it out there so folks can see how it works to get success on the trial field. Lynda hinted at something and I think I have to agree from my experience. If I have truly worked the system, I don't have to deal with non-compliance that is any more detrimental to the points than if I had trained the dog with another system. So far, I'd have to say that there is less inconsistency and non-compliance based on the dogs I've trained.

Terrasita


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