# Are Tugs good for PPD/PSD Puppies?



## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

I spoke to a PSD trainer and he told me he disagrees with the practice of using tugs, etc. with PPD & PSD prospects. He said it's just prey play and that it's counterproductive later on when trying to teach a PPD/PSD to bite for real. 

I didn't argue with him but I don't agree with him. I was taught that tugs are bad, etc. But years later I now think differently. I believe that letting a pup bite on various types of tugs (different materials, etc.) is a GOOD thing. 

I don't believe there is any correlation to tug training and whether or not a dog will bite for real. The dog either has it in its genetics to do the work or it doesn't have it. The use of a tug is not going to change its genetics nor inhibit the dog in its later, more serious bitework. 

What do you folks think?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I think the tug/toy can be used to reward obedience. In bite work, the bite should be the reward. If a dog needs a tug/toy to be rewarded for bite work, even in sport, I think that's the wrong dog.


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

But what about working a tug or rag, etc. with a PPD/PSD puppy?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Although I've never trained for either, I still would think it would be ok for obedience. Obedience can also be rewarded with a bite. 
PSD, PPD or sport, they all need obedience IMO.
I'm sure those that know a lot more then me will give opinions.


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

I wasn't actually thinking of using the tug for OB. I'm planning on using the tug to get the pup accustomed to biting different materials (jute, leather, bite-suit, fire-hose, etc.) and also to teach it to out (not initially) using the Ivan Balabanov method. By tomorrow I could change my mind.


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

What does this guy want the puppy biting on then? You can't just take a puppy and put him on a bite suit or do muzzle hits with him.... you have to start somewhere. You can do a lot of good foundation work with a tug!


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

I view tugs as another tool, if properly used, which helps to build the foundation in bite work. Without a foundation, what would you use, genetics alone? We train puppies with burlap, leather tugs, jute puppy sleeves, and sometimes the accidential "taste" of decoy flesh!

Tug training is also done to target leg/shin bites. We use a double handled tug and slide the foot into one end and hold the other away from the body. As the puppy bites with its head facing outward, we slip the tug. The puppy is learning new textures, targets, and the feeling of bite POWER.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Matthew Grubb said:


> What does this guy want the puppy biting on then? You can't just take a puppy and put him on a bite suit or do muzzle hits with him.... you have to start somewhere. You can do a lot of good foundation work with a tug!


I agree with Matthew. It's a great foundation, including the "out". It will carry over. If it's a sound enough animal to make it in police service work, playing at a young age isn't going to change that.

DFrost


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## Justin Eimer (Oct 17, 2006)

Patrick~
Real quick. I just wanted to weigh in. There is nothing wrong with a tug when it comes to a puppy. You are right, the dog has "IT" or it doesn't. There are ways that "IT" needs to be developed properly, but the tug in and of itself should not hinder that stage of training. I have a male Mal here, that only got bites on a tug periodically, over an extended period of time. He is a dog that has "IT". He went from the tug to the sleeve with no problem and on to live flesh even quicker. He also had a live bite on me with no equipment just to prove to my dumb a$$ that he had "IT". The tug can be a valuable tool and you have to start somewhere. It is the method that you use along the way and the individual personality and genetics of the dog, that will determine how things turn out from there. If you were dealing with an adult dog who had already had bite training, I can see how it could ultimately be counter productive, but with an up an coming PPD/PSD puppy it should not cause you any problems. It is very important to provide a bite foundation for puppies and I see nothing wrong with you using the tug to do it, if it is done properly. JMHO ~Justin


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

You seem to come accross all the unconventional types dontcha??


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## Justin Eimer (Oct 17, 2006)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> You seem to come accross all the unconventional types dontcha??


Why Mike, whatever do you mean???


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

I think Mike was referring to me and, yes, I do seem to come across a lot of unorthodox trainers. 

This trainer advocated not doing a thing with regard to any bitework and then to "test" the dog at a year of age and go from there. 

With my first working dog, Jake, my attitude was "Is he ready to bite already" and I pushed it along with my dumbass so-called trainer who beat the shit out of him with a whip. He said it was necessary to "bring him out". What a freaking idiot he was. 

My attitude and my approach with my next dog is she's ready when she's ready and not when I want her to be ready, etc. It's better to take it a bit longer than to push it too soon. Unlike Jake, I want to minimize as much as possible compulsion and no defense until I am damned sure she's ready. 

For those who haven't seen his method, Ivan Balabanov plays with his dogs using a tug and asks them to out and then restarts "the game" (as he calls it) at which time the dog (pup or young dog) bites the tug again. He teaches the dog that "outing" is only a temporary relinquishment of the tug in order to gain the cooperation of the helper in bringing the tug to life and then playing a little game of "tug" with the dog. I think it looks like a great training technique and that's the way I'm going to go.


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

I agree with what Justin has said. Tugs are great training aids, and why wouldn't you use them with puppies, the key word they're "PUPPIES". Patrick, use the tug. :grin:


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

The tug revisited. I also use a few old socks, placing several in a sock. With a piece of light string attached to the sock and a PVC pipe or broom handle. This is the same thing I do with young Labs. It is soft, they can bite down even while cutting teeth, and it is safe!


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