# why i think KNPV can be wreckless..



## steve davis

(the second dog in the video)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liqR9Ap-hHE

dont get me wrong, im becomeing very fond of KNPV but not the decoy work. im not quite sure why KNPV decoys take the dog head on without moveing with the dog. (not sure what the right lingo for that would be) does anyone know the reason for this? if so why? anyway i was trying to figure out what exactly happened to the second dog in the video, i've never seen the after effects of a dog that was jammed pretty bad. is that what happens? the dog just falls?


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## Anne Jones

Since they didn't show much but a little bit of the dogs reaction /behavior a few seconds after the hit....it looks to me like the dog may have a serious neck &/or spinal injury after being severly jammed. It may be something treatable by a chiropractice vet and acupuncture or it could be an career ending injury, as many back injuries are. My dogs collided head on while out running on the field a number of months ago & my female got the worst of it. When ever she would move the wrong way & 'catch' the nerve in the vertabre she would look like that dog crouching down & crunching up & turning in a circle & reaching for her lower back & screaming. It took about 4 months of treatment for her to finally feel better & be back to normal. I am even more careful with her now, then I was before this, when my 2 dogs are out on the field together. I will never take the chance of working her on a long bite for fear that she could reinjure herself. She may not be as lucky a 2nd time. The funny thing is that I have always been very careful about who works my dogs & she has never been jammed on a long bite & she hits very hard & fast for a little girl of 65lbs. Just my thoughts.


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## Steve Foss

What does it serve? Nothing, nimik, nichts!! This is dangerous and stupid, and coming from me I have done some stupid shit. Really, knowingly sending your dog in for anything like this proves courage but at what expense? If I spend $1,000's on my dog not to mention time, food and travel expenses I also need to look out for my dog. If I have a really great super dog by sport standards that will hit the decoy like a ton of bricks as he is supposed to, what does that prove if the dog breaks his back? It proves those panzer tanks that the Dutch call decoys standing a 6'6" tall can take a padded hit from a 70lb Malinois while wearing a suit. All the pics I see the dogs in KNPV look like tea cup poodles, but really its the decoys that are huge. Seriously, I am 6ft tall and was too short to user a urinal at a Burger King near Utrecht.

I compare KNPV being used for police certification like buying a used car from Enterprise Rental Car. We all know what we do to rental cars. I like KNPV overall, but this exercise simply makes no sense. There isn't anything wrong with giving in to the side the dog takes. I am all for leaving a welt on the dog with the stick, but not leaving him paralyzed. 

Oh and I remember something sort of comical. I was told while visiting the KNPV club that they could get in trouble if my dog had been seen training on their field since my Dobermann is cropped and docked. Then a guy comes out with a Malinois with a double E-collar, a stick in his right hand, a cattle prod in his left and then used his boot a few times on the dogs ribs. But I was the animal abuser.


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## andrew kurtowicz

with out seeing more of the effects the hit had on the dog its to hard to tell what happened. ive seen dogs bite there tongues in half on long bites, bite through their lip,break a couple k9s some of these injuries ive seen multiple times but every dog reacted differently to them


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## andrew kurtowicz

the knpv dogs as a whole are without a doubt reckless most of the dogs in knpv have no regard for their own safety(at least the good ones..lol) and will eventually self destruct. they are "over the top " in every form of the word thats why our highest levels of military buy them and dont buy schutzhund dogs. The best way Ive heard it explained is " you wouldnt drive a top fuel dragster to the grocery store" the proper tools for the proper job !!!!


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## Drew Peirce

Sometimes the dog actually wins>


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uv7SPwCaW0k


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## Al Curbow

Steve,
I've asked the same question a bunch of times. nobody seems to know the answer.


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## Steve Foss

"the knpv dogs as a whole are without a doubt reckless most of the dogs in knpv have no regard for their own safety(at least the good ones..lol) and will eventually self destruct. they are "over the top " in every form of the word thats why our highest levels of military buy them and dont buy schutzhund dogs. The best way Ive heard it explained is " you wouldnt drive a top fuel dragster to the grocery store" the proper tools for the proper job !!!!"

Would you buy a used rental car, even if it were a Cadillac? I completely disagree with your statement in every sense. These dogs have been broken down from years of abuse, second most police except dumb American police departments will not buy a PH I dog for a K9. The U.S. DoD makes trips for weeks at a time to Paderborn-Lippstadt for procurement. They sit there and evaluate dogs. Most are GSD's from Schutzhund from one known local contractor in Germany. Most German police k9 handlers do not like Malinois, things may have changed in the past few years but they didn't like them and would never take a KNPV dog. They use retired dog handlers to raise puppies. I have trained with the Austrian Federal Police in Vienna and they had mostly Malinois and raise their dogs themselves. They have a really cool training program and some pretty unique things. They don't buy KNPV dogs. While living in Romania I trained with Jandarmeria Română at their facility and they don't use KNPV dogs. Their program involved proofing their dogs on drunk gypsies in Bucharest. Elite police and military forces do not select sport dogs, sorry. They want a good foundation and a clean slate, they want something predictable so they have to do it themselves. 

Only Americans buy KNPV dogs. I like the sport all but for the train wreck, but your statement was false.


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## steve davis

andrew kurtowicz said:


> the knpv dogs as a whole are without a doubt reckless most of the dogs in knpv have no regard for their own safety(at least the good ones..lol) and will eventually self destruct. they are "over the top " in every form of the word thats why our highest levels of military buy them and dont buy schutzhund dogs. The best way Ive heard it explained is " you wouldnt drive a top fuel dragster to the grocery store" the proper tools for the proper job !!!!


 
my club trainer's police K9 is a holland import with a KNPV title that im not sure what it exactly is. the dog is 7 or 8 years old and still hits like a freight train and not to mention has a hard ass bite, trust me, i took bites from this dog last friday on a hidden sleeve that wasnt much thicker than a nice Carhart jacket. oh not to mention the dog has no k9's either thankfully or my arm would have looked and fealt worse than it did. i agree when it comes to haveing a top notch working dog, KNPV dogs are the shit....funny story, this chic that i know trains in schH, we do PSA. its there off season so she wants to do some suit work with her schH mali. she asks me to pick up her schH sleeve after the suit work for her mali to have something to carry off as a reward. i ask her what she wants me to do and she says just "attack" him. so i throw up my arm and charge at him..what does the dog do? just sits there...then she goes on to tell me, "just jump"...OK?? haha

anyway..


so there is still no explanation to why these decoys do not give in to the dog?


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## steve davis

Steve Foss said:


> "the knpv dogs as a whole are without a doubt reckless most of the dogs in knpv have no regard for their own safety(at least the good ones..lol) and will eventually self destruct. they are "over the top " in every form of the word thats why our highest levels of military buy them and dont buy schutzhund dogs. The best way Ive heard it explained is " you wouldnt drive a top fuel dragster to the grocery store" the proper tools for the proper job !!!!"
> 
> Would you buy a used rental car, even if it were a Cadillac? I completely disagree with your statement in every sense. These dogs have been broken down from years of abuse, second most police except dumb American police departments will not buy a PH I dog for a K9. The U.S. DoD makes trips for weeks at a time to Paderborn-Lippstadt for procurement. They sit there and evaluate dogs. Most are GSD's from Schutzhund from one known local contractor in Germany. Most German police k9 handlers do not like Malinois, things may have changed in the past few years but they didn't like them and would never take a KNPV dog. They use retired dog handlers to raise puppies. I have trained with the Austrian Federal Police in Vienna and they had mostly Malinois and raise their dogs themselves. They have a really cool training program and some pretty unique things. They don't buy KNPV dogs. While living in Romania I trained with Jandarmeria Română at their facility and they don't use KNPV dogs. Their program involved proofing their dogs on drunk gypsies in Bucharest. Elite police and military forces do not select sport dogs, sorry. They want a good foundation and a clean slate, they want something predictable so they have to do it themselves.
> 
> Only Americans buy KNPV dogs. I like the sport all but for the train wreck, but your statement was false.


 
not saying that there arent any good schH dogs out there that cant produce a nice police dog, but seriously...your going to bash american police departments because they look at and buy KNPV dogs? where's the class bro? our club trainer looked at over 200 dogs before selecting the one he has now...so how can you say he would be dumb to buy a KNPV dog after looking at 199 other prospects??


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## Guest

Steve Foss said:


> "the knpv dogs as a whole are without a doubt reckless most of the dogs in knpv have no regard for their own safety(at least the good ones..lol) and will eventually self destruct. they are "over the top " in every form of the word thats why our highest levels of military buy them and dont buy schutzhund dogs. The best way Ive heard it explained is " you wouldnt drive a top fuel dragster to the grocery store" the proper tools for the proper job !!!!"
> 
> Would you buy a used rental car, even if it were a Cadillac? I completely disagree with your statement in every sense. These dogs have been broken down from years of abuse, second most police except dumb American police departments will not buy a PH I dog for a K9. The U.S. DoD makes trips for weeks at a time to Paderborn-Lippstadt for procurement. They sit there and evaluate dogs. Most are GSD's from Schutzhund from one known local contractor in Germany. Most German police k9 handlers do not like Malinois, things may have changed in the past few years but they didn't like them and would never take a KNPV dog. They use retired dog handlers to raise puppies. I have trained with the Austrian Federal Police in Vienna and they had mostly Malinois and raise their dogs themselves. They have a really cool training program and some pretty unique things. They don't buy KNPV dogs. While living in Romania I trained with Jandarmeria Română at their facility and they don't use KNPV dogs. Their program involved proofing their dogs on drunk gypsies in Bucharest. Elite police and military forces do not select sport dogs, sorry. They want a good foundation and a clean slate, they want something predictable so they have to do it themselves.
> 
> Only Americans buy KNPV dogs. I like the sport all but for the train wreck, but your statement was
> false.


 
If this is what you want to beleive, fine, however DoD military buys that crap because thats all they can afford, they have a high price that they cannot go over and as anything else, who is gonna sell a PH I for nothing. Alot of elite agencies, like Green dogs, however alot like the foundation work and honestly the KNPV dog will have less training to do than any other sport dog. 

I HAVE BEEN THERE and know the who, what, when and PRICE!!


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## Steve Foss

Sorry, I didn't imply that schutzhund produced better police dogs. But the Americans are very seriously lacking in regards to their usage of service K9's. Go to Europe you will see, they are everywhere and are utilized. All of the so called elite procure or raise their own to their specs, not those of a sport. Too many American police departments take a PH I as being ready for the street, that is what I mean. There is a difference between a street dog and a sport dog. There isn't anything wrong with a foundation in any sport, but those that know what they are really doing do not want a finished sport dog. And a PH I dog is a finished sport dog. I know they must go through an incredible level of work to obtain it but that is besides the point. Police and military agencies across Europe do not take titled dogs, they take dogs that were washed out because they mauled their handler when he tried to force him to retrieve without mouthing the dumbbell. 

It takes about 600 hours of training to become a police officer in the State of Ohio, so at 40hrs a week that is 15 weeks. In Germany, 3 years. Dog handlers in Germany, Austria or wherever are not promoted to be a dog handler simply for years of service, they are put into that position because they are better qualified and don't eat as many donuts and drink too much beer and can still run.


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## Steve Foss

Jody, again point missed. DoD does buy shit, I agree completely. Show me these "elite" people outside of the Netherlands that buy KNPV dogs for their "elite" tasks. Besides Americans.

KNPV, Schutzhund, French Ring, Belgian Ring are sports, sorry to rain on your parade. An elite street dog would have murdered someone due to the insane compulsion used on these sport dogs to get points. 

Besides all this bickering and name calling. When dropping a load of cash on something that needs to be in service for considerable time they are not buying 3-4 year old dogs that were abused to get that sport title. Those that know, take dogs between 13 and 19 months old that are healthy with a foundation. That foundation may very well be KNPV. They are not going to buy a SchIII, FR III or PH I dog.


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## Guest

Steve Foss said:


> Jody, again point missed. DoD does buy shit, I agree completely. Show me these "elite" people outside of the Netherlands that buy KNPV dogs for their "elite" tasks. Besides Americans.
> 
> KNPV, Schutzhund, French Ring, Belgian Ring are sports, sorry to rain on your parade. An elite street dog would have murdered someone due to the insane compulsion used on these sport dogs to get points.
> 
> Besides all this bickering and name calling. When dropping a load of cash on something that needs to be in service for considerable time they are not buying 3-4 year old dogs that were abused to get that sport title. Those that know, take dogs between 13 and 19 months old that are healthy with a foundation. That foundation may very well be KNPV. They are not going to buy a SchIII, FR III or PH I dog.


Hey points taken, agree for the most part, as far as Elite, I am talking Government agencies a a few foreign that I am familar with.

On another note, a little off topic, but as far as a KNPV dog and why most like it........(example) as a trainer with little knowledge, getting a PH I or KNPV dog that has been in the pipeline for some time will show better for a department/agency than a green dog which will also require more training. A titled KNPV dog for the most part will show strong, but yes not al of them are great, I think by far the strongest of any sport, but what I am saying is again as I said before the title "Trainer" is so overused and I see alot of weaker/newbie trainers wanting KNPV dogs....they show strong which hide their training defencies........

If you get were I am coming from.........

And as I beleive sport and street are different, I beleive any good sport dog can be converted as well as any street.........training is training is training. (as long as the temperment is there, its possible) Not as different as most think. Got to look outside that tunnel sometime or get out of the box. Don't down play anything unless you had numerous rides on it.


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## Guest

Steve Foss said:


> Jody, again point missed. DoD does buy shit, I agree completely. Show me these "elite" people outside of the Netherlands that buy KNPV dogs for their "elite" tasks. Besides Americans.
> 
> KNPV, Schutzhund, French Ring, Belgian Ring are sports, sorry to rain on your parade. An elite street dog would have murdered someone due to the insane compulsion used on these sport dogs to get points.
> 
> Besides all this bickering and name calling. When dropping a load of cash on something that needs to be in service for considerable time they are not buying 3-4 year old dogs that were abused to get that sport title. Those that know, take dogs between 13 and 19 months old that are healthy with a foundation. That foundation may very well be KNPV. They are not going to buy a SchIII, FR III or PH I dog.


 
PH I one dogs are bought all the time, Sch or Ring, I haven't seen one ring, and only 3 Sch in at least 400 dogs.......... 

PH I dogs are getting younger and younger, that you are correct, however other sports still have their rules as such......


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## Steve Foss

A good dog is a good dog and can easily do both sport and street work with the proper precautions. Forgetting what you are working with and becoming lax will get someone hurt.

Who the hell gives a green handler a police dog? 

I understand your argument. It doesn't make financial sense to purchase a PH I dog for $7k+ that is 3 years old and been worked in that manner like we saw in that video. There is a higher probability of the dog having a hidden injury than any other dog. Now, I need to train that dog for street work and in the case of LE dope work, tracking and so on. Done properly, how long does that take? In Austria they were using their street dogs for currency detection. That alone was a dedicated training program nearly a year long in order to fully proof the dog. 

A good friend in Germany that was a retired K9 handler was raising puppies for the police. He was still an officer, but simply didn't work dogs anymore. He was given the puppy at 8 weeks old and at about 16 months old went to the NRW dog center at Stuckenbrok and went through a battery of tests along with about 100 other dogs. I watched the video, it was several hours. At the end they either accept or reject the dog. Its funny how people say the Europeans are the best at working dog sports, KNPV, SCH or Ring. But I have never seen an agency searching for titled dogs. Perhaps if the right one came along at the right price than yea.


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## Tim Bartlett

Steve Foss said:


> The U.S. DoD makes trips for weeks at a time to Paderborn-Lippstadt for procurement. They sit there and evaluate dogs. Most are GSD's from Schutzhund from one known local contractor in Germany.


Steve,

Not sure where you are getting your information from, but we haven't procured dogs in Paderborn in over 3 1/2 years. We also very rarely get dogs from Germany. There is only one vendor in Germany that we buy from (most are in Holland) but most of the dogs that he shows us are out of Eastern Europe. I would say that about 70% are GSD and 30% malinois.

We also rarely get dogs with Sch titles or training. Most are raised with the sole purpose of being sold to military or police departments.


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## Andy Larrimore

Thanks Tim


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## Steve Foss

Well this was while living in Germany training in 2005, so the time frame fits. This person that was the main person supplying the dogs had a BPA with the DoD for selling dogs. Due to life constraints I have been out of the loop for a few years and am getting back into it. I lived in Romania during 2007 while working at the Embassy and was without my dog for most of that year. I got to see a lot of wicked training in both Romania and Moldova. Wicked!! Not everyone proofs their dogs on live subject before they graduate training. :twisted: My point was that anyone in any "elite" status or function are not purchasing titled sport dogs. It is not practical nor economically wise to do so. And yes, most dogs are raised for that purpose from the time they are born.

Edited to add, I assume that those dogs being procured from Holland are without PH I titles?


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## Guest

Steve Foss said:


> Well this was while living in Germany training in 2005, so the time frame fits. This person that was the main person supplying the dogs had a BPA with the DoD for selling dogs. Due to life constraints I have been out of the loop for a few years and am getting back into it. I lived in Romania during 2007 while working at the Embassy and was without my dog for most of that year. I got to see a lot of wicked training in both Romania and Moldova. Wicked!! Not everyone proofs their dogs on live subject before they graduate training. :twisted: My point was that anyone in any "elite" status or function are not purchasing titled sport dogs. It is not practical nor economically wise to do so. And yes, most dogs are raised for that purpose from the time they are born.
> 
> Edited to add, I assume that those dogs being procured from Holland are without PH I titles?


 
Its DoD, of course they are, they can't afford the titled dogs...cmon man! ](*,)


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## Steve Foss

Well Jody I have named several countries that do not buy titled sport dogs of any kind let alone KNPV dogs and you simple say elite. Give specifics. Also tell me the average age of a successful PH I dog.


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## Steve Foss

The one thing I was surprised about what I saw in Austria and Eastern Europe were targeting techniques. I haven't seen these things before or even suits designed for what they were doing. I don't care what sport, but if you have trained a dog for particular targeting that your sport requires than it will be difficult to teach otherwise. KNPV has specific rules for targeting, especially on the while the decoy is on the bike. While in Austria I watched targeting all day long. The dogs were taught to strike with full force with their legs to the groin and bite the stomach. I saw similar things in Romania. I have done helper work before and have taken some pretty bad bites to the arms and hands. By far the worst bite I have ever taken was to the stomach.

Point being, "elite" agency k9 training director will not spend time un-training another trainers work, period. That is why green dogs are selected, they are a clean slate and can be molded to any purpose with ease. They are also cheaper, they also have less paralyzing crashes on their spines which equals more service life. A lot of shit can happen over the training career of any sport dog along the way to title. Is there a hidden trigger somewhere in the dog that might get me killed or could harm an innocent bystander? Good handlers can work wonders with shit if they have enough drive.


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## Christopher Jones

Without a doubt there is more risk of injury to a dog from poor IPO decoy work that poor KNPV. Look up the video footage from the FMBB workl championships in France a few years back and you will get to see what poor IPO courage tests do. Broken legs, jammed necks and knockouts. I have never seen nor heard of this many serious injuries in a single KNPV trial.


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## jack van strien

Can't help but wondering how many people who have an opinion on this actually train in KNPV or have put a KNPV title on their dog,


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## mike suttle

Steve Foss said:


> "the knpv dogs as a whole are without a doubt reckless most of the dogs in knpv have no regard for their own safety(at least the good ones..lol) and will eventually self destruct. they are "over the top " in every form of the word thats why our highest levels of military buy them and dont buy schutzhund dogs. The best way Ive heard it explained is " you wouldnt drive a top fuel dragster to the grocery store" the proper tools for the proper job !!!!"
> 
> Would you buy a used rental car, even if it were a Cadillac? I completely disagree with your statement in every sense. These dogs have been broken down from years of abuse, second most police except dumb American police departments will not buy a PH I dog for a K9. The U.S. DoD makes trips for weeks at a time to Paderborn-Lippstadt for procurement. They sit there and evaluate dogs. Most are GSD's from Schutzhund from one known local contractor in Germany. Most German police k9 handlers do not like Malinois, things may have changed in the past few years but they didn't like them and would never take a KNPV dog. They use retired dog handlers to raise puppies. I have trained with the Austrian Federal Police in Vienna and they had mostly Malinois and raise their dogs themselves. They have a really cool training program and some pretty unique things. They don't buy KNPV dogs. While living in Romania I trained with Jandarmeria Română at their facility and they don't use KNPV dogs. Their program involved proofing their dogs on drunk gypsies in Bucharest. Elite police and military forces do not select sport dogs, sorry. They want a good foundation and a clean slate, they want something predictable so they have to do it themselves.
> 
> Only Americans buy KNPV dogs. I like the sport all but for the train wreck, but your statement was false.


WTF are you talking about???#-o


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## mike suttle

Steve Foss said:


> Well Jody I have named several countries that do not buy titled sport dogs of any kind let alone KNPV dogs and you simple say elite. Give specifics. Also tell me the average age of a successful PH I dog.


You named several countries that dont buy titled dogs......BUT YOU WERE WRONG ABOUT MANY OF THEM! LOL
The reason that Jody does not name the elite agencies that he is speaking about is in the interest of National Security. Just use your imagination Steve and try to think of the most elite US Govt. agencies, which also happen to be the most elite in the entire World. Trust me....they do buy KNPV PH 1 dogs. How do I know? Because I sell the dogs to them. I know for a fact that many agencies outside the US buy PH 1 dogs, including Germany because I have trained with a few of them there myself.


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## Kyle Sprag

mike suttle said:


> WTF are you talking about???#-o


 
LOL, this just keeps getting better. Just say it is His MO! LOL


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## mike suttle

Steve Foss said:


> The one thing I was surprised about what I saw in Austria and Eastern Europe were targeting techniques. I haven't seen these things before or even suits designed for what they were doing. I don't care what sport, but if you have trained a dog for particular targeting that your sport requires than it will be difficult to teach otherwise. KNPV has specific rules for targeting, especially on the while the decoy is on the bike. While in Austria I watched targeting all day long. The dogs were taught to strike with full force with their legs to the groin and bite the stomach. I saw similar things in Romania. I have done helper work before and have taken some pretty bad bites to the arms and hands. By far the worst bite I have ever taken was to the stomach.
> 
> Point being, "elite" agency k9 training director will not spend time un-training another trainers work, period. That is why green dogs are selected, they are a clean slate and can be molded to any purpose with ease. They are also cheaper, they also have less paralyzing crashes on their spines which equals more service life. A lot of shit can happen over the training career of any sport dog along the way to title. Is there a hidden trigger somewhere in the dog that might get me killed or could harm an innocent bystander? Good handlers can work wonders with shit if they have enough drive.


Hey Steve, do us all this favor please.....POST VIDEO OF YOURSELF DOING DECOY WORK!!!
Perhaps that will answer many questions that some folk have who do not know you. LOL


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## Ellen Piepers

Steve Foss said:


> While living in Romania I trained with Jandarmeria Română at their facility and they don't use KNPV dogs. Their program involved proofing their dogs on drunk gypsies in Bucharest.


Oh, great...... I guess this whole thing about human rights is only applicable for a very selected group of people 
:evil:




jack van strien said:


> Can't help but wondering how many people who have an opinion on this actually train in KNPV or have put a KNPV title on their dog,


The same here. Somehow it doesn't really match what I see several times a week in KNPV training, but then again, these people seem to be the experts.

On the other hand it is quite entertaining ;-)


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## Tim Bartlett

Jody Butler said:


> Its DoD, of course they are, they can't afford the titled dogs...cmon man! ](*,)


Jody is right. It's not a fact that the DoD can't afford them though. We must buy 600+ dogs a year. There just isnt that many titled KNPV dogs around. And as everyone knows, the DoD needs good working soldiers, and a lot of them. Many people go elsewhere to sell these dogs to people that will pay a lot more than we do.


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## John Haudenshield

I'm no expert in the KNPV, but to me it looked like the dog simply didn't bite hard enough to hold on. If you notice in the one clip, the dog hits the ground, gets up & launches into the bite again. Yes, it's a reckless crash...but so are the ones when the dog holds on.

I think it's a little hard for us to stand on the outside and be too critical of a program that has proven itself time & time again as a method/tool for fielding a relatively high percentage of dogs suitable for police, military, detection, SAR, etc, etc. I look at the program and many of the people in it as being very pragmatic. They're going to continue doing what it is they have been doing for the last 100+ years whether you, I or anyone else agrees much with it or not....for no other reason than because it works & has worked over and over and over again. JMO.


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## R Janssen

Haven't heard more BS in a long time... ](*,)

Not sure where you get your info about the Germans.?
German PD's are stoping the use of there classic GSD's lines
and are on a large scale now using/buying/breeding KNPV dogs, 
its so bad that they are buying up complete premium litters in my region.

Sadly ,accidents happen also in KNPV.
I checked the trail results of that video clip, and all dog's got there PH1 that day, that includes the injured dog.

(Zaterdag 10 oktober)
http://www.knpvoverijssel.nl/najaar.09.htm


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## Steve Foss

National Security, yea I saw that movie. Please, if you were anywhere close to actually doing this you wouldn't be on a forum saying that you do. Period, end of story, no further arguments needed. Anyone can say this. I would think anyone who buys "elite" dogs would need to select, breed, raise and train these dogs in house to their own standards, not buy a sport dog. lol ](*,) 

I think those who train in KNPV will get defensive. I think overall it is the best and coolest dog sport. But it is a sport, you get points, trophies and ribbons. That long bite doesn't serve a whole hell of a lot. 

Oh and in the interest of National Security, why the hell would you be running your mouth on a public forum telling the world the foundation of these elite dogs? I rest my case........


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## charles Turner

Steve Foss said:


> National Security, yea I saw that movie. Please, if you were anywhere close to actually doing this you wouldn't be on a forum saying that you do. Period, end of story, no further arguments needed. Anyone can say this. I would think anyone who buys "elite" dogs would need to select, breed, raise and train these dogs in house to their own standards, not buy a sport dog. lol ](*,)
> 
> I think those who train in KNPV will get defensive. I think overall it is the best and coolest dog sport. But it is a sport, you get points, trophies and ribbons. That long bite doesn't serve a whole hell of a lot.
> 
> Oh and in the interest of National Security, why the hell would you be running your mouth on a public forum telling the world the foundation of these elite dogs? I rest my case........


 its hard too raise puppies and train while they are off, breaking into bad guys houses over in the desert.


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## Steve Foss

Ahh, well that explains it all. Thanks. So how do these titled dogs get ready for deployment and use with no one to train them??? 

It was the axis of evil that revealed how our elite dogs are trained on this forum. :twisted: Come on guys, if by chance some of your dogs are really procured for that purpose. You sure as hell wouldn't know about it, nor would you be here talking about it.

I should add this, I don't doubt that puppies from KNPV parents are raised, utilized and trained for such things. In fact they probably are. But not dogs that have been trained all the way to title in a sport, that in of itself is a sport dog.


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## Lee H Sternberg

Steve Foss said:


> Ahh, well that explains it all. Thanks. So how do these titled dogs get ready for deployment and use with no one to train them???
> 
> It was the axis of evil that revealed how our elite dogs are trained on this forum. :twisted: Come on guys, if by chance some of your dogs are really procured for that purpose. You sure as hell wouldn't know about it, nor would you be here talking about it.
> 
> I should add this, I don't doubt that puppies from KNPV parents are raised, utilized and trained for such things. In fact they probably are. But not dogs that have been trained all the way to title in a sport, that in of itself is a sport dog.


I don't know who let you out of the crate and don't much care, Steve. Your posts get more and more ****ed up as this thread continues. ](*,)#-o


----------



## Drew Peirce

I might be in the minority but I've never really considered the KNPV program a sport, in the same way that I dont really consider the USPCA nationals a sport over here, it's a police dog program designed to produce police dogs, ones that are ready for immediate deployment pretty much as soon as they hit the ground.
A ph1 title basically assures you that you have a dog that is ready for the street as is, turn key. This is what makes it very attractive to some agencies, they need to weigh costs of training green prospects against the cost of a street ready, turn key ph1 dog.
Yes, I'll admit it, the long bite makes me grit my teeth and cringe, but I thank god for the KNPV program and the dogs it's produced.


----------



## mike suttle

Lee H Sternberg said:


> I don't know who let you out of the crate and don't much care, Steve. Your posts get more and more ****ed up as this thread continues. ](*,)#-o


Your right Lee....now it is clear to me why this guy has been kicked off of other working dog forums.
he may be the most clueless internet dog trainer I have ever seen. LOL


----------



## mike suttle

Steve Foss said:


> Ahh, well that explains it all. Thanks. So how do these titled dogs get ready for deployment and use with no one to train them???
> 
> It was the axis of evil that revealed how our elite dogs are trained on this forum. :twisted: Come on guys, if by chance some of your dogs are really procured for that purpose. You sure as hell wouldn't know about it, nor would you be here talking about it.
> 
> I should add this, I don't doubt that puppies from KNPV parents are raised, utilized and trained for such things. In fact they probably are. But not dogs that have been trained all the way to title in a sport, that in of itself is a sport dog.


 Steve, you know so little about what your talking about that it may not even be possible to bring you up to speed on how this whole thing works. Maybe you should just stop now before you show us just how silly you really are.


----------



## Steve Foss

"A ph1 title basically assures you that you have a dog that is ready for the street as is, turn key"

That is scary if you actually think this sport title equals certified street worthy. That dog still needs considerable time before they can be on the street. Hey if its only your life on the line, go ahead. But comments like that put others at risk when they expect you to show up qualified. Remember, the people training in KNPV are for the most part people competing for titles that don't have the slightest idea about tactics. Your going to put your life in their hands as a handler without preparing that dog for the street? Granted KNPV is closer to being ready for street work than Schutzhund.

Lee, I actually escaped from the box after a long time of deprivation. Excuse me if I am a little blunt and pulling the bull shit whistle a little soon. #-o You expect me to believe someone that is responsible for securing our national security would be on a forum telling people they do? Do you expect them to be telling the world the foundation of such national security. It seems that only the people with a personal or financial interest are so defensive. I have neither, I have witnessed a lot of training from a lot of different places and people. Yes some violated human rights, I don't care I witnessed their training. The only thing people can say is that I am wrong they are right without even making a valid argument. The dogs I saw in training I knew where they were going and what they were being trained for, some were very serious positions. 

Seriously, look at the specifics. You expect people to believe that the PH I titled dog is the best qualified for "elite" work, whatever it may be compared to a 15 month old dog raised with the intention of being a PH I dog later. So, I buy a PH I dog that is lets say 30 months old. This dog is probably being sold right after passing his title, he is probably sitting in a kennel somewhere waiting to be purchased. That is a few weeks to a few months. The dog is delivered and processed which takes a few weeks. The dog is again evaluated and put into conditioning. The dog is then selected for its specific purpose and trained for that task which could take close to a year. How many $1,000's of dollars has this cost so far for training, food transportation. How old is this dog now? How old is this dog now with all of those insane crashes his spine took back in Holland? How much has been invested? How much training had to be undone? How many quirks were found that were hidden with good training? How long can this dog be expected to be in service? What is the expected functional usability of this equipment before needing replaced? From the way this is playing out that titled dog has at least two years less service life than taking a green dog, which probably hasn't been worked as hard and didn't need retrained. Don't tell me that government has limitless pockets, they is not true. Everything is a balance of numbers and the bottom line. 

Wait, we are not talking about foot soldiers. These are the elite fighting groups and spooks. Ok, I will play along. We are still talking about the same government. We are still talking about that same bottom line. We are still talking about dogs, unless someone created a super warrior that I haven't seen yet with mechanical teeth, hips and spine. These people still work around the bottom line, they are still working with living, breathing dogs. So when the point is argued against you and your position statement you say national security. Well I will pull that bull shit whistle again, you wouldn't know unless you were company. They would not leave a business card, and you wouldn't be here right now arguing with me that they were. They are not going to be outsourcing Extraordinary Canines to sport titled dogs.

Right, when you can't win an argument to save your life just attack and defame your adversary. Mike, did you learn that at West Point?


----------



## Howard Knauf

Drew Peirce said:


> I've never really considered the KNPV program a sport,



Although it "Technically" is a sport, I have to agree with you. If you have to have members of a "sport" club train a dog that are great prospects for police and military, then I want (and have worked two and trained with many other) KNPV dogs. The upbringing and training is desireable for weeding out substandard PSD prospects.


----------



## Kyle Sprag

Steve Foss said:


> "A ph1 title basically assures you that you have a dog that is ready for the street as is, turn key"
> 
> That is scary if you actually think this sport title equals certified street worthy. That dog still needs considerable time before they can be on the street. Hey if its only your life on the line, go ahead. But comments like that put others at risk when they expect you to show up qualified. Remember, the people training in KNPV are for the most part people competing for titles that don't have the slightest idea about tactics. Your going to put your life in their hands as a handler without preparing that dog for the street? Granted KNPV is closer to being ready for street work than Schutzhund.
> 
> Lee, I actually escaped from the box after a long time of deprivation. Excuse me if I am a little blunt and pulling the bull shit whistle a little soon. #-o You expect me to believe someone that is responsible for securing our national security would be on a forum telling people they do? Do you expect them to be telling the world the foundation of such national security. It seems that only the people with a personal or financial interest are so defensive. I have neither, I have witnessed a lot of training from a lot of different places and people. Yes some violated human rights, I don't care I witnessed their training. The only thing people can say is that I am wrong they are right without even making a valid argument. The dogs I saw in training I knew where they were going and what they were being trained for, some were very serious positions.
> 
> Seriously, look at the specifics. You expect people to believe that the PH I titled dog is the best qualified for "elite" work, whatever it may be compared to a 15 month old dog raised with the intention of being a PH I dog later. So, I buy a PH I dog that is lets say 30 months old. This dog is probably being sold right after passing his title, he is probably sitting in a kennel somewhere waiting to be purchased. That is a few weeks to a few months. The dog is delivered and processed which takes a few weeks. The dog is again evaluated and put into conditioning. The dog is then selected for its specific purpose and trained for that task which could take close to a year. How many $1,000's of dollars has this cost so far for training, food transportation. How old is this dog now? How old is this dog now with all of those insane crashes his spine took back in Holland? How much has been invested? How much training had to be undone? How many quirks were found that were hidden with good training? How long can this dog be expected to be in service? What is the expected functional usability of this equipment before needing replaced? From the way this is playing out that titled dog has at least two years less service life than taking a green dog, which probably hasn't been worked as hard and didn't need retrained. Don't tell me that government has limitless pockets, they is not true. Everything is a balance of numbers and the bottom line.
> 
> Wait, we are not talking about foot soldiers. These are the elite fighting groups and spooks. Ok, I will play along. We are still talking about the same government. We are still talking about that same bottom line. We are still talking about dogs, unless someone created a super warrior that I haven't seen yet with mechanical teeth, hips and spine. These people still work around the bottom line, they are still working with living, breathing dogs. So when the point is argued against you and your position statement you say national security. Well I will pull that bull shit whistle again, you wouldn't know unless you were company. They would not leave a business card, and you wouldn't be here right now arguing with me that they were. They are not going to be outsourcing Extraordinary Canines to sport titled dogs.
> 
> Right, when you can't win an argument to save your life just attack and defame your adversary. Mike, did you learn that at West Point?


 
Yet we are all supose to believe your Uber BULL SHIT!? :-\"


With your physique I don't think you can climb a Flight of stairs much less work a dog.


----------



## mike suttle

Steve Foss said:


> "A ph1 title basically assures you that you have a dog that is ready for the street as is, turn key"
> 
> That is scary if you actually think this sport title equals certified street worthy. That dog still needs considerable time before they can be on the street. Hey if its only your life on the line, go ahead. But comments like that put others at risk when they expect you to show up qualified. Remember, the people training in KNPV are for the most part people competing for titles that don't have the slightest idea about tactics. Your going to put your life in their hands as a handler without preparing that dog for the street? Granted KNPV is closer to being ready for street work than Schutzhund.
> 
> Lee, I actually escaped from the box after a long time of deprivation. Excuse me if I am a little blunt and pulling the bull shit whistle a little soon. #-o You expect me to believe someone that is responsible for securing our national security would be on a forum telling people they do? Do you expect them to be telling the world the foundation of such national security. It seems that only the people with a personal or financial interest are so defensive. I have neither, I have witnessed a lot of training from a lot of different places and people. Yes some violated human rights, I don't care I witnessed their training. The only thing people can say is that I am wrong they are right without even making a valid argument. The dogs I saw in training I knew where they were going and what they were being trained for, some were very serious positions.
> 
> Seriously, look at the specifics. You expect people to believe that the PH I titled dog is the best qualified for "elite" work, whatever it may be compared to a 15 month old dog raised with the intention of being a PH I dog later. So, I buy a PH I dog that is lets say 30 months old. This dog is probably being sold right after passing his title, he is probably sitting in a kennel somewhere waiting to be purchased. That is a few weeks to a few months. The dog is delivered and processed which takes a few weeks. The dog is again evaluated and put into conditioning. The dog is then selected for its specific purpose and trained for that task which could take close to a year. How many $1,000's of dollars has this cost so far for training, food transportation. How old is this dog now? How old is this dog now with all of those insane crashes his spine took back in Holland? How much has been invested? How much training had to be undone? How many quirks were found that were hidden with good training? How long can this dog be expected to be in service? What is the expected functional usability of this equipment before needing replaced? From the way this is playing out that titled dog has at least two years less service life than taking a green dog, which probably hasn't been worked as hard and didn't need retrained. Don't tell me that government has limitless pockets, they is not true. Everything is a balance of numbers and the bottom line.
> 
> Wait, we are not talking about foot soldiers. These are the elite fighting groups and spooks. Ok, I will play along. We are still talking about the same government. We are still talking about that same bottom line. We are still talking about dogs, unless someone created a super warrior that I haven't seen yet with mechanical teeth, hips and spine. These people still work around the bottom line, they are still working with living, breathing dogs. So when the point is argued against you and your position statement you say national security. Well I will pull that bull shit whistle again, you wouldn't know unless you were company. They would not leave a business card, and you wouldn't be here right now arguing with me that they were. They are not going to be outsourcing Extraordinary Canines to sport titled dogs.
> 
> Right, when you can't win an argument to save your life just attack and defame your adversary. Mike, did you learn that at West Point?


Dude.....HAVE YOU LOST YOUR MIND? I am done having this discussion with you. Why dont you come out and train with us and these Govt agencies we are talking about......the training day starts early and usually includes some pretty physical excercises with dog and man, we would love to have you here training for a week while we are working here with those guys, a lot of the stuff they do is no secret, they would allow you to train with them, in fact I am sure they would find great amusement in it.....I know I sure would! LOL 
Why dont you post some video of yourself and your decoy skills????


----------



## Lee H Sternberg

Do you guys get the feeling there's a lock coming? =D>


----------



## Steve Foss

Howard it is sport. There isn't anything wrong with selecting dogs from KNPV prospects. But I don't agree with people who believe a PH I is a police certification and nothing else needs trained. At one time people believed that of Schutzhund. KNPV served a legitimate purpose more so earlier in its development than now. People compete for points. Nothing wrong except people will do a lot to WIN! They don't care about that problem behavior they hid for the dog to pass and how it might bite you in the ass later on. You have no idea about what went into that title and training. There is more to lose from a finished titled dog than one that has only just begun and can be molded. Remember, there is always a reason why someone sells an adult dog. If it were really fantastic they would keep it and breed the shit out of it. 

Where do you outsource something so important? To whom? On a different topic. There was heated debate and outrage within the Timken Co. for outsourcing a particular bearing to a particular country that had a very serious and specific use. A former Marine actually argued against such a decision due to the rational of who can you trust to produce something sensitive. If some of you are selling to sensitive clients I suggest you turn off your computer now and go train.


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## Steve Foss

Mike, when and where did we last meet? I feel like pulling the whistle again, funny how people try to attack another person based on what, hearsay? Really Mike, grow up.


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## Lee H Sternberg

Quote Steve Foss "there is always a reason why someone sells a adult dog"

Do you think it might be for the MONEY $$$$$$$$$? :roll:


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## mike suttle

Steve Foss said:


> Mike, when and where did we last meet? I feel like pulling the whistle again, funny how people try to attack another person based on what, hearsay? Really Mike, grow up.


 Well Steve, 
Since you ask, the first time I met you was when you were sitting on a bench at John's club in Ohio, you were out of breath and panting like an idiot from walking the 50 yards from your car to the training field.
You were telling us how tough your older Dobe was while he was hiding under the seat of your Ford Probe, afraid to come out of your car. Later that night I saw Matt chase your dog out of the corn field behind John's training field. From what I can remember you were very good friends with the Kiewell brothers, and hung out mostly with them up there.......where are they now anyway?
I saw you train at Armin's one time and you left there upset because we were not impressed by your scary Dobermann. I have seen you a few times and every time it is the same....you are talking about how tough your dog is. You seam to like picking fights for your dog, but the one time I saw you called out on it you decided not to see just how tough your dog was.........I dont blame you for making that descision though, that may have been the only smart thing I have ever seen you do.


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## Steve Foss

Lee, if your going to quote me please do so right, an adult dog. Remember, an comes before words that being with a, e, i, o and u. For example a dog, an adult dog. I would appreciate that.

Yes, people sell dogs for money. Do you trust someone who wants to make money? What about cost cutting? What about a dog that swallows a ball so they sell it to America because they can't think of anything else to do with it? Compromises, they are a bitch.


----------



## Steve Foss

Wow Mike, you really got to me. I am going to leave now. Really, so you don't like what I have to say? Does it offend you? Or is it you cannot help yourself? I haven't mentioned my dog in any of this. What does he have to do with anything? I never left Armin's pissed. I believe it was you who got their panties all bunched up when I spoke my mind. I was never friends with the Kiewels, they used to train at the club and that was about it. My older Dobe was a pain in the ass, he died last year. I haven't had a Ford Probe in 5 years, things change Mike. Don't be so quick to talk shit and bash someone for something that has no standing in the current topic. So 5 years ago I was out of breath, does that impact what I see now? Have some courtesy and respect, didn't the Marines teach you that? All this name calling makes you look like an asshole.


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## Lee H Sternberg

Where the hell is Emillio when we need him! :lol:


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## jack van strien

Getting back to the original reason for all of this,the videos were taken on the day of certification.In training the dogs are not blocked like that as a rule,imo a dog who gets blocked like that everytime will not come in like that.The dogs do not suffer years of abuse as i read somewhere.
Accidents do happen of course and a dog who has a spectacular attack has more chance of getting his timing wrong.


----------



## David Frost

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Do you guys get the feeling there's a lock coming? =D>



Seems like a sensible warning. Tone down the personal stuff folks. There has been more than enough of it. 

If there is more discussion about whether or not you feel KNVP is wreckless, then by all means, enjoy. If not........

DFrost


----------



## Steve Foss

"Accidents do happen of course and a dog who has a spectacular attack has more chance of getting his timing wrong."

This is exactly my point. If I have worked so hard to build a dog that will be spectacular, what purpose does it serve if my dog were to become paralyzed in order to obtain a title in a sport? I have seen helpers break ribs, I have seen dogs collapse. I understand the ideal is to take a bicep bite swing safely around, but these are animals. My dog for example will counter a helper who attempts to take him to one side or the other and would end up with a square chest bite, and in this scenario would likely be hurt or killed. Throughout this entire thread no one has said why the helper doesn't give. Whoever said they thought the dog simply didn't bite hard enough is a fool. That dog drops and clearly arches his back, almost like he was going to take a shit. There is being hard and tough on a dog and then there is recklessness to prove the handlers or decoys ego.


----------



## Harry Keely

Steve Foss said:


> National Security, yea I saw that movie. Please, if you were anywhere close to actually doing this you wouldn't be on a forum saying that you do. Period, end of story, no further arguments needed. Anyone can say this. I would think anyone who buys "elite" dogs would need to select, breed, raise and train these dogs in house to their own standards, not buy a sport dog. lol ](*,)
> 
> I think those who train in KNPV will get defensive. I think overall it is the best and coolest dog sport. But it is a sport, you get points, trophies and ribbons. That long bite doesn't serve a whole hell of a lot.
> 
> Oh and in the interest of National Security, why the hell would you be running your mouth on a public forum telling the world the foundation of these elite dogs? I rest my case........


Dude I say it because no one else will, YOU DONT HAVE A FRINGING CLUE TO WHAT THE HELL U ARE SAYING MAN. Period end of discussion. 

Have you ever owned a KNPV titled dog before or ever had a dog of that caliber or the enrgy or tenacity to. It sure doesn't sound like it. People are trying to throw hints out here man. There is alot of people on here that are very educated and having been around the block just a few times bro.

Be careful before you make statements that you cant back or are BS man. Trust me you be surprised who all the hard hitters are on here. Another words don't talk out of your but before talking through your mouth and using your brain.:-({|=


----------



## Harry Keely

Steve Foss said:


> "Accidents do happen of course and a dog who has a spectacular attack has more chance of getting his timing wrong."
> 
> This is exactly my point. If I have worked so hard to build a dog that will be spectacular, what purpose does it serve if my dog were to become paralyzed in order to obtain a title in a sport? I have seen helpers break ribs, I have seen dogs collapse. I understand the ideal is to take a bicep bite swing safely around, but these are animals. My dog for example will counter a helper who attempts to take him to one side or the other and would end up with a square chest bite, and in this scenario would likely be hurt or killed. Throughout this entire thread no one has said why the helper doesn't give. Whoever said they thought the dog simply didn't bite hard enough is a fool. That dog drops and clearly arches his back, almost like he was going to take a shit. There is being hard and tough on a dog and then there is recklessness to prove the handlers or decoys ego.


Once again no clue to your A** talking dude, what do you train chia pets or something, come on man KNPV dogs are by far the most highly trained out there as far as sport gos and no other sport touches it. As far as real life let me know how many you can run off a field.](*,)


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## Jessy Bains

I can't speak for whomever anyone else has trained with or the dog in the video. However, as I was taught by a very high level and well respected knpv figure from Holland, the dogs should be taught to hit with there feet first when impacting. This is very important, since there is no "catch". If the dogs are executing this correctly this should not be a problem. I witnessed said decoy work a number of knpv titled dogs. There was a loud audible thud on every impact, he brought it like no other decoy I have ever seen. No absorbtion whatsoever, ran right through the dogs. But when you really look closely you see that the dogs are absorbing the impact on their own by hitting with their feet first and that is where the loud thud sound comes from. One of the reasons also i think the knpv dogs are able to have such violent and explosive entries, because the feet impacting minimizes pain and discomfort to the back, jaws, neck, teeth etc. so they have no hesitation in going full bore. Despite one violent collision after the next, none of the dogs were hurt or even close to it. If the dogs are executing this correctly there is no reason for the decoy to catch the dog and absorb the impact. Just what I have seen and perhaps some insight into the decoying style. Again cant speak for others in the knpv program, just what I have been exposed to.


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen

rene_limburg said:


> Haven't heard more BS in a long time... ](*,)
> 
> Not sure where you get your info about the Germans.?
> German PD's are stoping the use of there classic GSD's lines
> and are on a large scale now using/buying/breeding KNPV dogs,
> its so bad that they are buying up complete premium litters in my region.
> 
> Sadly ,accidents happen also in KNPV.
> I checked the trail results of that video clip, and all dog's got there PH1 that day, that includes the injured dog.
> 
> (Zaterdag 10 oktober)
> http://www.knpvoverijssel.nl/najaar.09.htm


Hai René.

Je bent de enige die iets zinnigs schrijft en die gasten horen alleen zichzelf l*llen. Ongelooflijk.#-o
Ze gaan ECHT NOOIT iets snappen van het KNPV-program en "ons" type honden.
Misschien maakt deze posting in het Nederlands ze wakker.....:-D:-\"

groeten,
Dick


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## Steve Foss

Look Harry, it is a sign of weakness and lack of education to simply snap back at people without offering any sort of intelligent argument. And don't use "texting" language to write messages. I am not U, I am you. So are these heavy hitters going to stop me somehow from training? And I don't care. I call it as I see it, without insulting people. I argue my point simply so that others don't take another persons word as GOSPEL.

Jessy, about the feet first thing that is an interesting point. However others on here have given several different theories as the dog is to take a bicep bite and swing safely around. You state the dog is to strike with his feet. Not saying which is right or wrong, but no one else has really put forth an explanation. From my understanding the use of the feet was discouraged, especially in the bicycle exercise out of decoy safety. The dogs were discouraged from biting anywhere but the legs.


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## Steve Foss

Selena, I lived on the border long enough to understand Dutch. But I have not misunderstood the KNPV program. The only thing I question is the throwing a shoulder into the dog as he is biting. What does it prove? I have said numerous times that KNPV is awesome and is the toughest and coolest dog sport. But I draw the line when someone tries to tell me a PH I dog is ready to hit the streets without further training.


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## Jessy Bains

Steve the bicycle attack involves running down a fleeing decoy on the leg, so we wouldn't be saying the same impact as a head on courage test on the biceps. Again, cant' speak for others but the use of feet is highly encouraged for the cushioning affect. And taught and nurtured right from the start. Its not any kind of point deduction as far as i know either. It's not like alot of sch folks, or how some sch judges may percieve feet on the helper.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Hai René.

Je bent de enige die iets zinnigs schrijft en die gasten horen alleen zichzelf l*llen. Ongelooflijk.
Ze gaan ECHT NOOIT iets snappen van het KNPV-program en "ons" type honden.
Misschien maakt deze posting in het Nederlands ze wakker.....

groeten,
Dick

WTF ??

Write in English cheater. I read through all this to see what it would be that you would say, and how close I would be to guessing, and you cheat, and write in code.


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Christopher Jones said:


> Without a doubt there is more risk of injury to a dog from poor IPO decoy work that poor KNPV. Look up the video footage from the FMBB workl championships in France a few years back and you will get to see what poor IPO courage tests do. Broken legs, jammed necks and knockouts. I have never seen nor heard of this many serious injuries in a single KNPV trial.


Very confusing since this is one of your old quotes.

"You honestly think that biting a hard arm and getting swung around by the decoy is anywhere near as hard a test as a dog hitting a bitesuit in the upper arm and getting JAMMED into the decoy while been hit across the head, back ears (what ever place they end up hitting) with a stick and getting screamed at?


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## Guest

Steve Foss said:


> Selena, I lived on the border long enough to understand Dutch. But I have not misunderstood the KNPV program. The only thing I question is the throwing a shoulder into the dog as he is biting. What does it prove? I have said numerous times that KNPV is awesome and is the toughest and coolest dog sport. But I draw the line when someone tries to tell me a PH I dog is ready to hit the streets without further training.


 
Even in Holland, a PH I is NOT ready for the street, they undergo more training with the place they end up in. I can agree with you that a PH I is NOT ready for the street, it still has to go through training, specifically bonding with its new handler to see how the two mesh. The targeting is a non-issue, very easily transitioned to whavever he can get his mouth on, that doesn't even take a great trainer. Because these dogs are so strong and possessive freaks, some departments/units don't have what it takes to handle these, not to mention the money at times. They are very strong and confident and control is the hardest thing. Bitework is a no brainer, that's the simple part, detection as well as they are super possessive, some lines are better than others on hunt, but for the most part they all hunt very well. 

But a street dog, yes, immediately after a PH I certificate, No.


----------



## Christopher Jones

Timothy Stacy said:


> Very confusing since this is one of your old quotes.
> 
> "You honestly think that biting a hard arm and getting swung around by the decoy is anywhere near as hard a test as a dog hitting a bitesuit in the upper arm and getting JAMMED into the decoy while been hit across the head, back ears (what ever place they end up hitting) with a stick and getting screamed at?


Yeah, when done by good decoys. Bad decoys with IPO sleeves cause more injuries than bad KNPV decoys who dont have to worry about presenting an IPO sleeve. You need more skill to be a good IPO decoy than a KNPV one. If you need it explained any further find someone with more patience to do it.


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## chris haynie

i got nothing really productive to add but i do have a theory about why KNPV decoys work they way they do. its just a theory, perhaps someone more knoweldgeable about the KNPV program could confirm or deny my theory. 

As KNPV is a police dog focused sport it would make sense for the decoys to yield less to the dogs when catching them. I have a feeling a fleeing felon wouldn't give to the dog when they get hit, so it seems logical that KNPV decoys wouldn't either. 

this was kind of entertaining to read, but i wish i understood dutch. i have a feeling that whatever Dick Van Leewun had to say was funny.


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## Steve Foss

I think skill level relative to their respected sports, I don't think a KNPV helper can be any less skillful. I agree that there must be considerable skill and technique to catch really fast dogs in sleeve work. I do not agree that a sleeve jam could come close to a shoulder jam as in KNPV. Think about the dynamics, in the sleeve presentation there is more cushion to give before the impact reaches center mass and the momentum stops in a jam, but compared to striking a shoulder especially when the helper throws the shoulder into the dog.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

@ Steve: read better, my husband's name was under the post.


stickattack is originally designed as courage and taking a confrontation test: a character test in short.
The programme is a 100 yrs old and it is still be done.

It has ben made "safer" though, 'tll 10 yrs back the decoy was running harder into the dog, which made the confrontation harder. The decoy really must try to scare the dog away and the dog has to stop the bad guy, a suspect in the streets won't give his arm either, he just want that dog to go away. The last 10 yrs it's softened up, decoy in the op did his job well in the current rules. Personally I want to see the old way...


----------



## Drew Peirce

All that stuff goes without saying jody, I didnt mean you could take them off the plane and go 10-8 that night, my point is you have all the essential ingredients of a proper police dog, tweak it to your needs of course, but it's all there.
I read what dick wrote, I can only hope he realizes that not all american handlers are ignorant, and MANY of them not only understand the KNPV program but love it, and would never own any other dog in the world but a KNPV dog.

There are thousands of us dick


----------



## Steve Foss

Selena, do you believe that this exercise would be less of a test of courage if the decoy were to give in to the bite and allow some cushion? I see decoys presenting their shoulder as to throw it out there while in a stance to not give period. This isn't realistic as the bad guys on the street are not in a padded suit. I am all for the decoy running harder and hitting harder with the stick, but I think there needs to be more absorption on part of the decoy. 

As someone said before, supposedly these only occur during certification. I have seen them in training footage, but never mind that. In theory if the dog has not experienced this crash before, the dog does not know it is coming and it is therefore less of a test. These are animals, they are not capable of much reasoning.


----------



## Timothy Stacy

That is a good explanation Selena!!! I do see the point but is it really a test when a dog has seen it 100 times in training. Can't you take a lesser dog and desensitize the dog to the test?

Although it is pretty impressive to see some of the reckless dogs...


----------



## Guest

Drew Peirce said:


> All that stuff goes without saying jody, I didnt mean you could take them off the plane and go 10-8 that night, my point is you have all the essential ingredients of a proper police dog, tweak it to your needs of course, but it's all there.
> I read what dick wrote, I can only hope he realizes that not all american handlers are ignorant, and MANY of them not only understand the KNPV program but love it, and would never own any other dog in the world but a KNPV dog.
> 
> There are thousands of us dick


No worries, and yes love it! The harder the better!


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen

@ thimoty: you can desentize to a part, some dogs will never have it and even if you take the confrontation up slowly they just can have "so" much.

The good ones do it even if they've never seen it before (as a young adult), they feel challenged and "charge" in to the decoy. Those you have to learn to target in a safe way and have to slow them down a bit.

And no, a full confrontation isn't done every training: the decoy would like to have his bruises heal once in a while.

@ steve: a shoulderbite will always have a little bit of asorbtion, a legbite is a harder confrontation, shoulder will always bent a little, your shin doesn't.


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## Timothy Stacy

That is a great thing to see I bet, when a dog does it the first time. Realy gives you a good look at the dogs true character and genetics.
l Is there a stop attack in KNPV?


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## Gerry Grimwood

Timothy Stacy said:


> Is there a stop attack in KNPV?


There is some type of call off or something similar, I've seen it in videos where the dog is sent and the decoy stands still so the dog goes to guard.

I don't know what they call it though.


----------



## Guest

Gerry Grimwood said:


> There is some type of call off or something similar, I've seen it in videos where the dog is sent and the decoy stands still so the dog goes to guard.
> 
> I don't know what they call it though.


 
Yes, your right! I here its trained last and right before trial for the simple fact that they are so GD driven, the "OUT" is so difficult by the time they are ready for trial. Frustration LOL

Well, they only have to do it once!!


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## Kyle Sprag

Link to KNPV PH I Score sheet and Exercises

http://members.atlantic.net/~vcristel/knpv1score.htm


Iitem M. *M. Recall of the pursuing *


----------



## Lori Longardino

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Hai René.
> 
> Je bent de enige die iets zinnigs schrijft en die gasten horen alleen zichzelf l*llen. Ongelooflijk.
> Ze gaan ECHT NOOIT iets snappen van het KNPV-program en "ons" type honden.
> Misschien maakt deze posting in het Nederlands ze wakker.....
> 
> groeten,
> Dick
> 
> WTF ??
> 
> Write in English cheater. I read through all this to see what it would be that you would say, and how close I would be to guessing, and you cheat, and write in code.


Jeff, you need to down load babelfish. You could then cut and paste what a person has written and translate it from the origanal language to english. ;-)


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## steve davis

wow, almost a day old and 78 posts..thats my personal best on a public forum:lol:

anyway, as far as what i asked in my original post, thanks for the replies.


----------



## andrew kurtowicz

yea but did you learn anything ?????


----------



## John Haudenshield

Steve Foss said:


> Whoever said they thought the dog simply didn't bite hard enough is a fool.


That 'fool' would be me. I rather be called a fool by you than have displayed myself an ignorant F*#€ like you have. You should be used to seeing dogs 'turf' b/c they forget to open their mouths on the long bite, I've seen dobes do that a dozen times.
You say you call it as you see it without calling people names, yet you do. You claim all of this worldly experience, yet you repeatedly display your ignorance. You obviously have an axe to gring b/c some KNPV club 'insulted' you and your cropped & docked dobe. I agree with you that a PH1 cert does not make a dog street ready, but you've hijacked an entire thread bashing many aspects of a program that you claim to admire & spewing forth ignorance on numerous subjects with which you obviously have little more that superficial knowledge of.


----------



## Steve Foss

The dog didn't fall to the ground instantly, he obviously had a grip. If he had simply failed to grip hard enough, what was with that reaction and look from the dog and the gasp from the crowd? Well, it might be hard to grip with spinal damage. So, your right.... How about that?

Actually, I don't have an axe to grind. The club there actually liked my dog. I only went once, I learned a hard lesson that my car I bought in Germany didn't have insurance to leave Germany. I simply made a comparison that some of the same people that dressed their dogs with enough electricity to power a TV thought I was the animal abuser for having a cropped and docked dog. My dog came that way...


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Gerry Grimwood said:


> There is some type of call off or something similar, I've seen it in videos where the dog is sent and the decoy stands still so the dog goes to guard.
> 
> I don't know what they call it though.



Oh yeah, when the decoy puts his hands in the end of the sleeves. I had a friend who insisted there was a stop attack. I was gonna say that would be very impressive to call a dog off the decoy running down the field as in the courage test and still maintain the speed like knpv dogs do. Anyhow still is impressive!


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Lori Longardino said:


> Jeff, you need to down load babelfish. You could then cut and paste what a person has written and translate it from the origanal language to english. ;-)


Google translate 
http://translate.google.com/?hl=en#


----------



## Steve Foss

How many times can you say the word ignorant in a paragraph? Do you know the definition of that word? Granted I may have drank considerable amounts of Alt in Germany, but I trained at a lot of places across all of Europe. My "ignorance" has not been proven by anyone that actually knows me. Even Mike Suttle doesn't know me as well as he thought he did, that is why he hasn't posted anything further. I had two points, which I am very entitled to. I didn't argue against KNPV, to the contrary. I did argue that supposed elite groups are not buying PH I sport dogs for their tasks for a multitude of reasons. Things may have changed in Germany, but I don't see Germans buying PH I dogs either. Simple fact is self pride. Same reason the Polizei are driving VW's, BMW's and Mercedes not Renault or any other national car. And again, no it isn't only about money.


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## Kyle Sprag

"Same reason the Polizei are driving VW's, BMW's and Mercedes not Renault or any other national car. And again, no it isn't only about money."


LMAO!!!

You forgot Opal Fautz that is owned by GM and all the Ford, Fiat and even some Citrone products that are drivin by the Polizei!!!!!!!!:-\"


----------



## steve davis

andrew kurtowicz said:


> yea but did you learn anything ?????


 
......................


----------



## Gerry Grimwood

Timothy Stacy said:


> Google translate
> http://translate.google.com/?hl=en#


Admin Edit: Knock off the childish shit please.


Does that translate properly ? just a test, nothing personal :razz:

Admin Response: No it didn't. Back to school you go.


----------



## todd pavlus

Admin Note: Knock off the childish shit please.


----------



## Timothy Stacy

This is not the attended use but it does sound fun.
Vrouwen haten een stinkende nederlands oven?


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

You hate the stinky oven of the netherlands ??


----------



## Steve Foss

This really shows your intelligence level, nor will I stoop to your level.

Oh, ummmm would those be Fords produced in Germany? Would those be Opals produced in Germany? hmmmm, die schlaue leute. Gleich und Gleich gesellt sich gern.

I forgot to add, Opal is the only thing that kept GM alive. Even though GM has tried its best to destroy it.


----------



## Mike Schoonbrood

Godverdomme, wat n stelletje eikels....

If you're gonna name-call in Dutch then at least do it properly. You guys are a bunch of 3 year olds!

Does anyone have anything productive left to add to this thread? Or are we going to start measuring penises next?


----------



## Gerry Grimwood

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> Godverdomme, wat n stelletje eikels....
> 
> If you're gonna name-call in Dutch then at least do it properly. You guys are a bunch of 3 year olds!
> 
> Does anyone have anything productive left to add to this thread? Or are we going to start measuring penises next?


There was nothing productive in this thread from the beginning.


----------



## mike suttle

Steve Foss said:


> How many times can you say the word ignorant in a paragraph? Do you know the definition of that word? Granted I may have drank considerable amounts of Alt in Germany, but I trained at a lot of places across all of Europe. My "ignorance" has not been proven by anyone that actually knows me. Even Mike Suttle doesn't know me as well as he thought he did, that is why he hasn't posted anything further. I had two points, which I am very entitled to. I didn't argue against KNPV, to the contrary. I did argue that supposed elite groups are not buying PH I sport dogs for their tasks for a multitude of reasons. Things may have changed in Germany, but I don't see Germans buying PH I dogs either. Simple fact is self pride. Same reason the Polizei are driving VW's, BMW's and Mercedes not Renault or any other national car. And again, no it isn't only about money.


No Steve, i did not post anything further because I finished the kennel work at 3pm and went to training until just a few minutes ago. You still really believe that those "elite groups" dont buy PH 1 titled dogs????? Really???? Sorry to burst your bubble Steve, but I have several invoices in my accouting software that says they do.
I have nothing else to add here, I cant reason with someone like yourself. you obviously know more than any of us.


----------



## Mike Schoonbrood

The reason KNPV is done with KNPV-line dogs is because the dogs are bred to have the structure and genetic traits that allow them to brace (using their paws and body) to handle the stick attack. When people use a dog that is either a poor example of the breed or from lines that were not intended to do KNPV, that is where problems can occur. It is BECAUSE the KNPV program is so hard on dogs that the dogs being bred are as good as they are. They are physically solid dogs that use their bodies, not just their mouths.

A PH1 dog isn't necessarily a worn out cripple by the time he makes it as a police dog. If he is, then the dog is a poor example of the breed. The cripples are the PH2's that spend their entire life repeating the KNPV exercises over and over in competition, not the young dogs sold as police dogs after they title. If they didn't do things the way they did, then the dogs would probably suck by now.

European police departments are more likely to take a green dog to train themselves is because the law enforcement agencies in Europe take their training far more seriously, so it is feasible for a department that has a staff of qualified trainers to take a young dog and train the dog, and not need to pay the high-dollar price for someone elses training. After all, dogs aren't worth squat in Europe, it's the Americans that drove the prices up so now everyone wants their piece of their American pie. Why would a guy in Holland sell his dog to a department in Spain when he can get twice the price from a department in the US? Half the time its the KNPV people that say "well, this dog I have now sucks, I want a better dog... but I bet I can sell this dog to a police department in the US for 3000 euros then go get myself a 300 euro puppy and start over."

There's also a ton of dog dealers in every country, they all seem to sell to US Government, and they all seem to stay in business. Some have green dogs, some have titled dogs, some have Shepherds, some have Mal's. Something tells me that no dog dealer knows exactly what every agency buys and where they buy from. I'm sure that various government agencies have bought plenty of titled and untitled dogs. I also know that everyone struggles to find affordable quality dogs, and many police departments are very lax on the dogs details, as long as the dog is under X amount of dollars and shows potential.


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> You hate the stinky oven of the netherlands ??


Is that what it translated, or are you messing with me. Do dutch natives even know what a stinky dutch oven is? I bet they don't know that slang term.


----------



## R Janssen

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Hai René.
> 
> Je bent de enige die iets zinnigs schrijft en die gasten horen alleen zichzelf l*llen. Ongelooflijk.#-o
> Ze gaan ECHT NOOIT iets snappen van het KNPV-program en "ons" type honden.
> Misschien maakt deze posting in het Nederlands ze wakker.....:-D:-\"
> 
> groeten,
> Dick


@Dick, Laat ze maar lekker in de zandbak spelen, het is zo te zien een hopeloze zaak...
Misschien spreekt dit ze meer aan: :mrgreen:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qz42I-Tgn54


----------



## Timothy Stacy

That's not fair Rene, I can't find a vocal translator.

This is on my you tube favorites courtesy of Dick, I believe http://www.youtube.com/user/yeahya33#p/a/f/0/pTUwVWO8qO0
This dog is a beast


----------



## Kyle Sprag

Steve Foss said:


> This really shows your intelligence level, nor will I stoop to your level.
> 
> Oh, ummmm would those be Fords produced in Germany? Would those be Opals produced in Germany? hmmmm, die schlaue leute. Gleich und Gleich gesellt sich gern.
> 
> I forgot to add, Opal is the only thing that kept GM alive. Even though GM has tried its best to destroy it.


 
LOL No Steve it doesn't take a whole lot of Intelect to see through your BS! As you say, I just blew the "bullshit whistle". :wink:

Nice try though.

Now as for your original statement, let me Help you Out:

*"Same reason the Polizei are driving VW's, BMW's and Mercedes not Renault or any other national car. And again, no it isn't only about money."*

This is simply FALSE!!!!

BTW besides the formentioned Opal, Ford, Citrone and Fiat I distinctly remember several Alfa Romeo sporting the Green and White as well! :-\"
* 


*


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen

Timothy Stacy said:


> That's not fair Rene, I can't find a vocal translator.
> 
> This is on my you tube favorites courtesy of Dick, I believe http://www.youtube.com/user/yeahya33#p/a/f/0/pTUwVWO8qO0
> This dog is a beast


Thanks, this is my working policedog Spike. We bred him out of my Rocky and my Nika. (Father x daughter)

regards,
Dick


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Thanks, this is my working policedog Spike. We bred him out of my Rocky and my Nika. (Father x daughter)
> 
> regards,
> Dick


I'll take one of those for Christmas. That dog just has a presence about him and the violent thrashing. Just looks very powerful and fearless.


----------



## Harry Keely

Steve Foss said:


> Look Harry, it is a sign of weakness and lack of education to simply snap back at people without offering any sort of intelligent argument. And don't use "texting" language to write messages. I am not U, I am you. So are these heavy hitters going to stop me somehow from training? And I don't care. I call it as I see it, without insulting people. I argue my point simply so that others don't take another persons word as GOSPEL.
> 
> Jessy, about the feet first thing that is an interesting point. However others on here have given several different theories as the dog is to take a bicep bite and swing safely around. You state the dog is to strike with his feet. Not saying which is right or wrong, but no one else has really put forth an explanation. From my understanding the use of the feet was discouraged, especially in the bicycle exercise out of decoy safety. The dogs were discouraged from biting anywhere but the legs.


Actually sir I'm not weak and as fas as smart gos I'm not going off half cock, Such as you have presented. I dont choose to argue with anyone on here no matter how you might see it. All I was simply wsaying is that you need to show humbleness to those that far exceed as you say education in the dog world. The ones that you refer to are not over nighters nor am my self. Never said to stop training dogs all I'm saying until you have been to holland, own KNPV dogs or dog of this caliber you have no room to justify yourself, nor knowledge to comment in any way or form Sir. I leave it at that.](*,)


----------



## Dan Long

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Thanks, this is my working policedog Spike. We bred him out of my Rocky and my Nika. (Father x daughter)
> 
> regards,
> Dick


WOW! Thru the car window and out the other side right to the bite. Very cool!


----------



## Harry Keely

Steve Foss said:


> Selena, I lived on the border long enough to understand Dutch. But I have not misunderstood the KNPV program. The only thing I question is the throwing a shoulder into the dog as he is biting. What does it prove? I have said numerous times that KNPV is awesome and is the toughest and coolest dog sport. But I draw the line when someone tries to tell me a PH I dog is ready to hit the streets without further training.


Once again nobody said on here that a KNPV is ready for the street as soon as it hits the ground in the USA. If a department certifies under NAPWDA or USPCA or its own eternal program it still has to do most the time 100's of hours to be ready for the streets. All we are trying to say is that the chance of this happening is much higher than any other sport or kennel or for that matter country.


----------



## David Ruby

Dan Long said:


> WOW! Thru the car window and out the other side right to the bite. Very cool!


Ditto!

-Cheers


----------



## Steve Foss

According to Kyle I have been wrong about everything. May I ask with whom have you trained with in Europe? 

I mean if I said the sky was blue Kyle would say it was purple. I rode in a lot of polizei cruisers in Germany. And of all the cruisers I saw 99% belonged to either VW, BWM or Mercedes. I must be making that up too. 

I do own a dog that probably would be trained in KNPV if I lived there. But I don't. I will leave you to your beliefs.


----------



## Harry Keely

I tell you what Steve, I'm going to be a nice guy to as well as Mike, We will be having a good size tactical two day seminar / event at the end of March 2010. You seem to know so much about training and decoying that I will like to offer you a invitation. We post detail as it gets close. It will consist of only local, county, state and federal agencies. So if your interested hit me up with your porfile and mailing adress. We are looking at 30-40 dogs well let you take a couple of these shoulder hits and if you still got it in you. We will offer you to stay as a decoy. I would say thats pretty generous for a un educated guy. By the way I will take care of entry fee being that I'm one of the guys holding this event on this go around. Sound good to you, I guess we will see sir. Matter of fact if your are law enforcement u can compete and play, I loved to see this bad A** dog you are talking about.=D>


----------



## Matt Grosch

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Thanks, this is my working policedog Spike. We bred him out of my Rocky and my Nika. (Father x daughter)
> 
> regards,
> Dick



On the MMA forum im a member of, whenever anyone talks or posts a vid of a working dog they think is serious, I always post that vid of Spike


----------



## Matt Grosch

And.....(Im a novice so take it for what its worth, but)



The police dept where I worked for 6 years, now a reserve and get my volunteer hours in training with the K9 unit, will now only buy KNPV titled dogs. They said they noticed a huge difference and will not go back. Ive been really impressed with what Ive seen too, much better than the ones they had about 5 years or so ago. Also, they said they have been problem free with bad bites/etc

The last one they bought took only 5 weeks to get his k9 certification (bitework seemed really dialed in from day 1, so im guessing it was the detection and tracking), unit veteran told me after that they worked with him a bit more on duty to develop his 'street worthiness'...


So, it didnt take anywhere near 100's of hours to get this KNPV dog to be a police dog, a few sessions a week for 5 weeks.


----------



## Harry Keely

Matt Grosch said:


> And.....(Im a novice so take it for what its worth, but)
> 
> 
> 
> The police dept where I worked for 6 years, now a reserve and get my volunteer hours in training with the K9 unit, will now only buy KNPV titled dogs. They said they noticed a huge difference and will not go back. Ive been really impressed with what Ive seen too, much better than the ones they had about 5 years or so ago. Also, they said they have been problem free with bad bites/etc
> 
> The last one they bought took only 5 weeks to get his k9 certification (bitework seemed really dialed in from day 1, so im guessing it was the detection and tracking), unit veteran told me after that they worked with him a bit more on duty to develop his 'street worthiness'...
> 
> 
> So, it didnt take anywhere near 100's of hours to get this KNPV dog to be a police dog, a few sessions a week for 5 weeks.


Thats really good matt. Most departments run programs 5 days a week from 9-5 for alot more than 5 weeks depending on their SOP's or SOG's. Thats bomb proof drug alert, agression control and OB the whole nine. Alot of it to is K-9 care, classroom, vehicle up keep for the K-9 unit, cleaning bathing, head to toe physical, etc... .I agree 100% with the KNPV being the way to go. Makes life alot easier. Good luck with you and the dogs in your department.


----------



## Kyle Sprag

Steve Foss said:


> According to Kyle I have been wrong about everything. May I ask with whom have you trained with in Europe?
> 
> I mean if I said the sky was blue Kyle would say it was purple. I rode in a lot of polizei cruisers in Germany. And of all the cruisers I saw 99% belonged to either VW, BWM or Mercedes. I must be making that up too.
> 
> I do own a dog that probably would be trained in KNPV if I lived there. But I don't. I will leave you to your beliefs.


 
I didn't say that you have been wrong about everything.

I have not trained Dogs in Europe

I have trained with French, Belgian, Dutch, Swis and German as well as Other Europeans Here in the US.

I Lived in Donaueschingen Germany for a year and saw many many NON VW, BMW or Mercedes Polizei cars, In fact that was one of the things I noticed when I moved there was the VARIETY of Vehicles that WERE/ARE Used for that purpose. ;-)


You also forgot Audi and Porshe as Domestic Polizei alternatives.......](*,)


----------



## Harry Keely

We all need to stop bothering with this guy he knows it all, I mean theres never room for learning something new, I mean I even offer the guy to work and share his knowledge with agencies while he was online and nothing back from him. We are all wrong and dont know anything he is the guru, I guess we are just waisting our own breaths and time. So here is to Steve the GURU, best of luck to you pal and your kick A** dog.:-k


----------



## Harry Keely

Check out steves dobi on the discussion
*Who says there are no "REAL" Dobermanns? :-k:-k:-k*


----------



## Guest

Steve, 
I'm not gonna attempt to talk down to you or anyone, as this thread will be locked and I actually enjoy the discussion and arguments. What if this was a discussion about MR/FR/PSA/SCH/APPDA??? It probably would end up the same way. Some people beleive and have a passion for a particular way of training and sport. I like them all....well except ScH LOL There will be disagrements across the board amongst everyone. Some people say they know you and maybe your dog? I have no clue who you are no do you know I. But I am going to attempt to give you some info not to prove you wrong, but to end the bickering and get back to this....

1) Elite Units? US? Foreign? - Yes, all the above! National Security....Yes when reveiling names, organizations, locations, etc..... 

2) The majority of Great departments, organizations and Elite Units buying PH I or almost PH I dogs? YES Over 90% across the board. 

3) Mike and a few others on this board, some keeping quiet, like I probably should.....F_CK IT!! know this because they train with alot of them, or sell dogs to alot of them. (It's easy to figure this out if you know the goverment system, contracting, etc. its not rocket science, you can see who buys and from whom)

4) Most dogs are bought right before or right after trial. YES! Most dogs are young, yes, because again, dogs are getting trained quicker and sometimes better than before, because its a SALE$$$$ for them the quicker they sell one, the quicker they can get another one trained up.

5) Most of these units I mentioned (OR DIDN'T)  Don't give two shits about how many times the dog crashed into the decoy recklessy! What they care about is that the dog is gonna do it AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN! Money is not normally an issue with these folks. Of course the dog has to be in good health and pass a vet exam, but for the most part what was dicussed in the thread about dogs being beat down, no issue, as long as they do it again with the utmost confidence and recklass abandom! 

6) They don't buy a PH I or close with the intention of putting him on the street/combat right away, that was never the intent, these dogs have to get paired with a handler and be put through a course, and absolutely some don't make it, but for the most part it isn't because the dog didn't work well, its cause the handler and he didn't pair well, too hard, not enough control.....typical KNPV dogs, strong as an ox with the attitude of a bull! 

I guess I covered most of the points, again it is not to prove you wrong, but in this case just puts out the facts....

Again, you don't know who I am and you don't have to beleive squat I say, but those who know understand and will agree.


----------



## Steve Foss

"2) The majority of Great departments, organizations and Elite Units buying PH I or almost PH I dogs? YES Over 90% across the board."

Please provide data to back up your argument that 90% of elite units, great departments or organizations are buying PH I titled dogs. Please clarify what you consider to be great or elite and where. I believe Mike Schoonbrrod put it exactly, the only people by far that are purchasing PH I dogs are the Americans. There is a certain mystical belief in KNPV, whether well founded or not, this is not my point. 

"YES! Most dogs are young, yes, because again, dogs are getting trained quicker and sometimes better than before, because its a SALE$$$$ for them the quicker they sell one, the quicker they can get another one trained up."

The Chinese have this same philosophy as well. Would you wear Chinese ballistic armor into battle? Or drink Chinese bottled milk? Or play with Chinese toys with lead? Again I believe Mike Schoonbrood put it dead on. People are training these dogs faster, getting them through training for the purpose of being resold. Do you trust another person's motives when their training philosophy is the bottom line? You believe KNPV to be superior, but the Europeans are not paying the premium for these dogs, only the Americans. The canine unit is well utilized in Europe, they will not pay 5 times more for a PH I titled sport dog as they would to simply buy green dogs and utilize their own in house experts. I don't trust other people, not when they are motivated by financial gain. The end concern for the person training to PH I is the PH I, not your interests after he sells you the dog. That was it for him, and he may very well have done a whole lot of craftsmanship to get the dog to there. If you are selling PH I titled dogs to elite people, that is your right. However, you do not know what the rest of the people are doing or what they are selling and to whom. Ninety percent of who? Ninety percent of your dogs? Or everyone else? I simply stated where I trained, when I trained, what I saw and what the dogs were and their methods. Two of the training centers were for the entire country! I can tell you, Romania had some bad ass dogs trained for some bad ass purposes that blew my mind. A PH I dog would have been the handlers salary for a few years..........


----------



## Guest

Steve Foss said:


> "2) The majority of Great departments, organizations and Elite Units buying PH I or almost PH I dogs? YES Over 90% across the board."
> 
> Please provide data to back up your argument that 90% of elite units, great departments or organizations are buying PH I titled dogs. Please clarify what you consider to be great or elite and where. I believe Mike Schoonbrrod put it exactly, the only people by far that are purchasing PH I dogs are the Americans. There is a certain mystical belief in KNPV, whether well founded or not, this is not my point.
> 
> "YES! Most dogs are young, yes, because again, dogs are getting trained quicker and sometimes better than before, because its a SALE$$$$ for them the quicker they sell one, the quicker they can get another one trained up."
> 
> The Chinese have this same philosophy as well. Would you wear Chinese ballistic armor into battle? Again I believe Mike Schoonbrood put it dead on. People are training these dogs faster, getting them through training for the purpose of being resold. Do you trust another person's motives when their training philosophy is the bottom line? You believe KNPV to be superior, but the Europeans are not paying the premium for these dogs, only the Americans. The canine unit is well utilized in Europe, they will not pay 5 times more for a PH I titled sport dog as they would to simply buy green dogs and utilize their own in house experts. I don't trust other people, not when they are motivated by financial gain. The end concern for the person training to PH I is the PH I, not your interests after he sells you the dog. That was it for him, and he may very well have done a whole lot of craftsmanship to get the dog to there. If you are selling PH I titled dogs to elite people, that is your right. However, you do not know what the rest of the people are doing or what they are selling and to whom. Ninety percent of who? Ninety percent of your dogs? Or everyone else? I simply stated where I trained, when I trained, what I saw and what the dogs were and their methods. Two of the training centers were for the entire country! I can tell you, Romania had some bad ass dogs trained for some bad ass purposes that blew my mind. A PH I dog would have been the handlers salary for a few years..........


My last statement as you will NEVER understand, sometimes, its ok to come out of the box...for real it is....

90%, yes, I have data, actually its higher than that, but thats irrelevant, can you see it, nah! Sorry! OH yeah, and because I CAN'T share it, your gonna say I am bullshittin' (Don't Care)

The dogs are bought, because they past a selection test and a very thorough one at that, not all pass, but the majority that do are 95% or better KNPV dogs, titled and non-titled. The title is irrelevant, its the test, just so happens that most of the have it or almost have it. 

There is no doubt that the Europeans aren't paying what some in the US are paying, its not much different as it use to be I wil tell you that. 

For the record, I don't trust anyone! PERIOD! Unless you got my six in a gunfight! 

I am speaking of over 16 US and 6 Foreign organizations that I am familar and with for the last 4 1/2 years. And it's changing from year to year......

Never been to Romania, only seen a few of the girls in other locations.......


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## Steve Foss

"90%, yes, I have data, actually its higher than that"

I understand how you can come up with statistical analysis of your own dog sales. Fine and dandy, but your making a broad statement about all "elite" organizations. What do you consider elite? I highly doubt your personal dog sales represent 90% of service dog sales in this world. And because the dogs exchange hands several different times between the KNPV handler and its final destination. So the KNPV handler doesn't have any idea where the dog ends up. He has his Euros in his pocket and is off to a coffee shop or the red light district.


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## Guest

Steve Foss said:


> "90%, yes, I have data, actually its higher than that"
> 
> I understand how you can come up with statistical analysis of your own dog sales. Fine and dandy, but your making a broad statement about all "elite" organizations. What do you consider elite? I highly doubt your personal dog sales represent 90% of service dog sales in this world. And because the dogs exchange hands several different times between the KNPV handler and its final destination. So the KNPV handler doesn't have any idea where the dog ends up. He has his Euros in his pocket and is off to a coffee shop or the red light district.


 
I can see why people dislike or try to argue with you! I tried, anyone else want some? 

Jeff, cmon help me out here.....LOL


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## Steve Foss

Jody, for the same reason I can not argue and disprove the dogs you sell and to whom, you cannot argue what the rest of the world is doing. Really, there are 1,000's of dog trainers that sell to the police and military across the world. And you can speak for what they all are doing and to whom they are selling? You don't like arguing with me because you cannot. 

What you may consider elite, may not be to someone else.

Someone enlighten me, how many dogs pass PH I Certificate each year in the Netherlands? I really want an actual number. How many dogs need put into service each year across the globe?


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## Dave Colborn

I'll tag in for a question. Since when have you been selling dogs, Jody? If I had known that I wouldn't have found a boxer. I would have seen if I could buy one of your genetically perfect wash outs!!

And i think KNPV is great. As well as dogs smashing guys in suits. I do like to have my dogs walk away from the smashing though... KNPV is one way to get a dog ready for a handler/department to test him for part of the tasks required of a police dog/elite man killa.


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## Guest

Steve Foss said:


> Jody, for the same reason I can not argue and disprove the dogs you sell and to whom, you cannot argue what the rest of the world is doing. Really, there are 1,000's of dog trainers that sell to the police and military across the world. And you can speak for what they all are doing and to whom they are selling? You don't like arguing with me because you cannot.
> 
> What you may consider elite, may not be to someone else.


 
I can argue all day long, but what's the point, your an idiot. For one I never said I sold dogs, I don't! My nature of how I work with all these organizations is absolutely none of your buisness, I was trying o help enlighten you and add something to this thread, but apparently this thread should be renamed! 

Sad......And you wonder why you left the boards...after reading all these posts from you.......

You still don't get it......the problem isn't with the board, or the people on here except you! 

I enjoy conversing with all on the forum, different disciplines, etc, its fun, interesting, knowledable, and just maybe someone may enlighten me or turn me on to something I would have overlooked or not cared about. 

I enjoy busting balls with the best of them, but mostly enjoy reading them, however its a no win situation with you and when I/we know we are absolutely 100% correct, it's just more assumptions or what if's, or opinions from you. 

I am done with this thread. Nothing more to gain or add.


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## Steve Foss

So your opinion of an idiot is someone that asks you to back up what you say? When in doubt insult. So if your not in the business of selling dogs, how do you know who is buying what and where it is going? Lets split hairs. The dog you trained, you did say you had data as proof. So 90% of the dogs you trained were PH I dogs. Ok, cool. What about the rest of the world. And someone please answer my question. How many PH I dogs pass their certification each year in the Netherlands?


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## Thomas Barriano

Steve Foss said:


> Jody, for the same reason I can not argue and disprove the dogs you sell and to whom, you cannot argue what the rest of the world is doing. Really, there are 1,000's of dog trainers that sell to the police and military across the world. And you can speak for what they all are doing and to whom they are selling? You don't like arguing with me because you cannot.



Steve,

NO one is arguing with "what the rest of the world is doing"
The only argument is with what you are saying/claiming.
Visiting some training clubs doesn't make you an expert.
I seem to remember you having some police training but
don't recall that you ever actually worked in law enforcement? What were you doing when you were visiting all these different countries and training clubs? Are you a working dog training professional or a well to do Groupie?


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## Guest

Steve Foss said:


> So your opinion of an idiot is someone that asks you to back up what you say? When in doubt insult. So if your not in the business of selling dogs, how do you know who is buying what and where it is going? Lets split hairs. The dog you trained, you did say you had data as proof. So 90% of the dogs you trained were PH I dogs. Ok, cool. What about the rest of the world. And someone please answer my question. How many PH I dogs pass their certification each year in the Netherlands?


I'm not insulting, simply stating the facts, UR AN IDIOT!!!

I never said I trained a dog(s) in this thread either.......


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## Guest

Thomas Barriano said:


> Steve,
> 
> NO one is arguing with "what the rest of the world is doing"
> The only argument is with what you are saying/claiming.
> Visiting some training clubs doesn't make you an expert.
> I seem to remember you having some police training but
> don't recall that you ever actually worked in law enforcement? What were you doing when you were visiting all these different countries and training clubs? Are you a working dog training professional or a well to do Groupie?


 
Tom, Groupies understand more than this guy......


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## Guest

How many PH I dogs pass their certification each year in the Netherlands?[/quote]

So your going to attempt to claim (assume) that x number of PH I dogs in a given year are titled and the need for service dogs in the US and abroad is x number? 

Again, still not accurate and I have never said the percentages are titled for one and I only spoke for the select groups I know of. Of which I am know I am accurate. So I guess you will never know my data and I really don't care of any of yours.


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## Harry Keely

Jody Butler said:


> Tom, Groupies understand more than this guy......


Jody not to steal your thunder bro, but that was established the first time he posted on this KNPV thread. Dude you cant help people that dont want to help themselves, you know that. Hes like a base head need some but can't get it because his heads on way backwards. :idea::idea::idea::idea::idea:


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## Steve Foss

I was a police officer in Montgomery, AL for a short period of time but had to return to Ohio due to a family member needing assistance. I was a criminal justice major and met a lot of people. One thing led to another. A very good friend of mine was the lead investigator for the Austrian Federal Police, he teaches counter-terrorism now at universities. I stayed for sometime at the police dormitory in Vienna for $5 a night, in downtown Vienna. I was put in touch with a retired K9 handler because they knew I enjoyed training dogs, and I worked for sometime at their K9 facility. I did my practical experience at the U.S. Embassy in Romania. While there I did some work with a South Eastern European Organized Crime Task Force. One of the Diplomatic Security agents put me in touch with one of their DS liasons that was formerly with the Jandarm and I was able to do some training with them at their training facility. I wish I could have had my dog with me in Romania, but the feral dog population was too dangerous to have a dog in the city. Right now I am waiting to hear from a few law schools.


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## Gerry Grimwood

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLyyPCbxnIU


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## Bob Scott

This is going nowhere!


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