# Being a Decoy



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

It seems that Chris and I have had an interesting "conversation" from another thread. Understanding the forum rules and regs WHICH should be followed, here's the thread...

Being a decoy (LE, club, national, international, or other), I don't care which venue you work or play in, *is it as simple as taking a written test and jumping around with a sleeve or bite suit?* Also, it would be most helpful if former or current decoys addressed this topic as it does play into their field of knowledge.

From my former certified and "non-knowing self"...the Schutzhund Trial Helper certification did pose many challenging areas for the first time taker of it. The written area and the practical area were both educationally rewarding and challenging. 

As many know, I no longer work or train in that venue and one that was done in 2000. I feel that the information and training DO help you become better at reading and working dogs for the sport venue in which you work. The information showcases proper equipment use, safe dog catching, working the dog through all levels of SCH certification, and dog reading skills used in the areas of prey, defense, avoidance, and fight drives. It does not make you a skilled trainer or breeder. 

Was it as easy as just jumping around like a clown...hell no!! Would I be willing to do it again? Yep, even at 53, it's all still good!!!!


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

I saw a working and respected trial helper walking and talking with the "cadets" through every step as the judge stood there. 

OK take five steps. Hold the sleeve like this... etc... now run this way.... 

Then there was a written test and BAM you're certifed. 

Its BS. However, it's clear to me that it's expected to continue to work on your new found helper skills in your training club. When you get good enough then you work a couple of club trials and progress from there.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

D. The Certification
The helper certification takes one day and is comprised of the following:
1. A discussion of the rules and updates by the LV/OFS.
2. Reviewing the subjects which are part of the written certification test.
3. Trial procedure critiques on the field.
4. A physical conditioning test in which the applicant must run about 400 yards,
at a moderate pace, in full protection equipment without showing physical
limitations.
5. Work three (3) dogs showing skill and a correct understanding of the rules in
Schutzhund I, II, III. The number of dogs worked and the rules tested will be
at the discretion of the LV/OFS.
6. Satisfactorily complete a written test on the trial rules and procedures. The
questions for this test will come from this document, LV/DVG America's
Official English Translation of the VDH Trial Rules , and any subsequent
VDH Rule changes published in LV/DVG America Magazine or on the web
by the LV/LRO and/or LV/OFS.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Chris, I must agree that some certifications are just that easy. I did mine through the DVG and had my a$$ handed to me. Thank God the score was high and the overall showing respected by the guy who certified me. 

With that said, I do feel that it is an ongoing effort to be the best, working many dogs to be able to read the nonverbals they give, and to safely work the dog as to bring out *ITS best skills and abilities*. 

In short, it is all about making the dog great and the decoy is just another piece of good equipment. Nice follow up!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

If you want to be a good (read good for OTHER people) decoy, first thing you need to do is work a buttload of dogs, and try and see what is already trained, and what the dog is bringing.

Forget things like "all prey" or defense and all that crap at first. Just try and see what the dog is.

When you can OBVIOUSLY see that the dog is in way too much drive for this exercise, or too little drive, that is where you can start from.

You will always make mistakes, that is normal, it is the fact that you can SEE that you are doing so that will make you a better decoy. You can ALWAYS stop, and re-evaluate what has happened, and how to difuse some of that drive, or get more out of the dog.

Some dogs, you build and build like you would a bank account. THEN you can withdraw some or more than likely with that kind of dog all of it for an exercise that requires control.

Some dogs have way too much, and so you want to keep them in a state where they are thinking, and not making tons of mistakes due to their drive.

All the rules are silly to think about right away. Think of them as sidework. They will be important to the exercise, but useless if you are not able to read the dog and work him accordingly.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

The point I was making in the other thread is, becoming a certified schH helper does not mean you can work a dog. However, for some reason there are people who think because they are "certified" they can work dogs. Of course the circumstances are different if you're an experienced training helper and decide to become a trial helper. The certification means certification to work in a trial. Not to help train a dog to bite.

Here's a YT of a helper seminar.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UY-suQp-zh8


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

It is funny how that certification means so much, for no apparent reason.

There are "certified" decoys doing all kinds of stuff nowadays having trained only a few dogs. Pretty funny.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

that was some sage advice from Jeff


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Labels mean nothing to me every dumb ass in the five state area could follow like lemmings to what some dumb ass is serving or telling them. If he ain't dishing the game I'm looking for or asking for fukem.:lol:
We have a group of young helpers in our club and area so next month we're bringing in Dean Calderon "first SV certified teaching helper in the US" who many of them have never seen or trained with or heard his perspective. Through the years we have adopted his and others and our own methods to make up our club's training system's foundation. Were not bringing him in to certify any one but just to teach and demonstrate stuff using our club dogs. It should be good stuff for them and will benefit our club.
I think I've asked this before and don't remember the answer but what is a "Master Trainer" and what or who qualifies someone as one is there a venue ware "Master Trainer" is considered king
Could Jeff be considered WDF's "Master Trainer"


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## Rick Mattox (Dec 8, 2008)

At training seminars I think I've seen 1 person fail. Most who would fail just don't show up until they are better. You get instruction, take the test and work some dogs to get certified.

Mike, Dean's seminar should be a good one. Hopefully he'll bring Makr Soccocio and it will be great.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Just the mention of the words MASTER TRAINER in a conversation with someone about dogs makes me want to change the subject.


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Being a decoy is all about knowing what you are doing and loving it,if you don't have ;*the feeling; *no matter what you do you will never be succesful.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Rick Mattox said:


> At training seminars I think I've seen 1 person fail. Most who would fail just don't show up until they are better. You get instruction, take the test and work some dogs to get certified.
> 
> Mike, Dean's seminar should be a good one. Hopefully he'll bring Makr Soccocio and it will be great.


Dean will be just fine I am hoping to go down and train with them in the spring or summer for a 4 day weekend.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> If you want to be a good (read good for OTHER people) decoy, first thing you need to do is work a buttload of dogs, and try and see what is already trained, and what the dog is bringing.
> 
> Forget things like "all prey" or defense and all that crap at first. Just try and see what the dog is.
> 
> ...


 Yep...I like! Well worth putting a highlighter on and posting in the decoy hall of shame...
*When you can OBVIOUSLY see that the dog is in way too much drive for this exercise, or too little drive, that is where you can start from.*


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I have no idea what the **** you are talking about 89% of the time, this falls right in there with that. I just assume you are drinking.

Anyone want to try and decipher what Howard just said ??


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Jeff...bartending and dog forums can't mix. Jack and coke do...just to help you out, the translation was and still is...your post was well worth posting, many of the points were worth remembering as a decoy AND the one I did in bold was very important in my book! Don't think I getting weak or slanting to the Jeff side~!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Please, you know I am your hero.


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

I persoanlly think that egos ruin some good decoys, they start doing fairly well and then they start knowing it. Without getting knocked down a few pegs every once in awhile, their ego overrides their ability to work dogs like they used too IMHO. 

I work dogs at our club, I'm not certified, have no intentions of it either. I'm not good at decoying but I'm decent and can take instructions and criticism well. I think that certification to a lot of people means that decoy is the best, when in reality, they might be, but more than likely they're not. Certification doesn't mean crap to me, show me what you can do and THEN maybe I'll let you work my dog. 

Courtney


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Please, you know I am your hero.


:mrgreen: :roll:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

QUote: I'm not good at decoying

Quote: I persoanlly think that egos ruin some good decoys, they start doing fairly well and then they start knowing it. Without getting knocked down a few pegs every once in awhile, their ego overrides their ability to work dogs like they used too IMHO.

Quote: show me what you can do and THEN maybe I'll let you work my dog. 

1, I believe you. Stop doing it before you hurt something.

2, Ego is the ESSENCE of a good decoy. How are you gonna "knock" them down a few notches ?? Gonna put on a helper display ?? 

3, Wrong attitude, you barely can train OB and want to bust someones balls. Get over yourself.


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## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

i am new myself and the biggest issue i have is the same as training, its timing
reading a dog and reacting is hard standing still when your new...while also moving, catching, driving, footwork, then there are the rules also is near impossible
then you watch a good training decoy an they make it look easy
I would call myself just below bad, but at least I am old and slow

its like a rookie quarterback playing pro football you sometimes make up your mind what your going to do before the snap, where a pro just reads the defense and takes what they give him


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

I think bitework is like obedience, you teach the dogs behaviours that its espected to perform.

What I first look in to a decoy is his ability to do obedience and play with his own dog, if he is not capable of that he has no buiseness working my dog.

There is a huge difference between being able to work a dog in a trial and train a dog.

Most good trainers are also good training decoys, most trial decoys are not very good trainers.

Happy training

Max


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> QUote: I'm not good at decoying
> 
> Quote: I persoanlly think that egos ruin some good decoys, they start doing fairly well and then they start knowing it. Without getting knocked down a few pegs every once in awhile, their ego overrides their ability to work dogs like they used too IMHO.
> 
> ...


Jeff- Thanks for the concern :roll: BUT I do just fine working dogs, I'm not good at it but am decent enough. I prefer a decoy without a lot of Ego and attitude, makes for a hard time training if the decoy is a douche. I train OB just fine, thank you. I have issues with one ****ing command, fuss, and it was something I was doing wrong not the dog. I wasn't busting anyone's balls and usaully don't.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I wasn't concerned. Not even a little bit. I just thought that the EGO was on the other foot, when you said you decoy dogs. REALLY ?? Is that what you think you are doing ??

I have seen your OB and fine is not a word I would put in front of it.

HA HA.

Shut up and title your dog already DAMMIT.


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

I'm working on titling him. Can't title a green dog that needs tuning, at least I can't, I don't want to make an ass of myself in front of a lot of people at a trial.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Oh GOOD GOD. I can guarentee you that will happen a few times. Anyone that hasn't had that happen, sits on the sidelines.....................


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## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

we had a saying in powerlifting...
why only fail in front of your friends when you can drive 90 miles pay $50 and fail in front of hundreds of strangers you have never met...LOL


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## Kevin Barrett (Dec 16, 2009)

Where is the best place to get training in PSA decoy if there are no clubs in your area? We have a good and a great schutzhund club where I live and thats it. I know for a fact I need training and shown what I have done wrong. I want to learn off of someone good and not off of someone who is a joke. I don't care if they have egos or not as long as I learn what I need to.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Being a Noob training decoy, I found it very frustrating. I completely agree that you need to work as many dogs as possible in order to become a good decoy. However it seems that very few will let a new decoy work their dog. Seems to be a catch 22 for sure. 

The only way I've seen anyone overcome this catch 22 is when they (noob) are the only choice, only decoy available. Now I find this situation a bad combination, as it lacks an experienced decoy to oversee and correct the noob decoy. THe noob very likely creates bad habits.

So how can this catch 22 be overcome. I'm sure I'm not the only noob decoy that has found this situation.

Does becoming a trial decoy give Betty homemaker or Mr. Goodwrench enough confidence in the Noob decoy to take the leap of faith?


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I tell my new handlers, as they start getting experience being a decoy; it's like a dance. A good dance partner knows when to lead and when to follow. You can only do that when you are in tune with your partner. 

DFrost


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

David Frost said:


> I tell my new handlers, as they start getting experience being a decoy; it's like a dance. A good dance partner knows when to lead and when to follow. You can only do that when you are in tune with your partner.
> 
> DFrost



DAMN! I just knew there was some dog dancing in your history! :roll: :grin: :wink:


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## Dan Long (Jan 10, 2008)

Mike Lauer said:


> we had a saying in powerlifting...
> why only fail in front of your friends when you can drive 90 miles pay $50 and fail in front of hundreds of strangers you have never met...LOL


What a great quote, I've lived that one too many times myself! Those meet days when all the training you did, all the prep work, all goes for nothing because you didn't sleep good or didn't eat right that morning and your openers take everything out of you.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> DAMN! I just knew there was some dog dancing in your history! :roll: :grin: :wink:


.........shiver........


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

I can relate to training, my six pack abs look great...now here is that stupid bottle opener?


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