# Difference in french lines



## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

A question was posted on a facebook page, what is the difference in French line malinois compared to Belgian lines? 

All I have heard, is that French types are smaller, faster, and harder dogs. I javent seen this though. Anyone have any input?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

julie allen said:


> A question was posted on a facebook page, what is the difference in French line malinois compared to Belgian lines?
> 
> All I have heard, is that French types are smaller, faster, and harder dogs. I javent seen this though. Anyone have any input?


harder meaning?


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

I'm assuming tougher, rougher dogs?? Just hearsay...


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Generally you hear more that the French dogs are more sensitive than the Dutch or Belgian dogs. But the FR bloodlines are quite large and there many different people breeding them that I have no doubt there are super ones all over France. I would love to hear more about the French malis and what bloodlines are known for what traits.


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

As already mentioned, it depends largely on the lines. All Malinois be they from Holland, Belgium, France, Germany, etc. The different lines have different temperaments/character traits bred into the line. There are dogs from Belgium w/ handler sensitivity, but w/ zero tolerance attitude from the helper or "outsiders." There are lines that are hard and independent and care for nothing, but their work whereas others are full of pack drive and handler compliance. I know of french lines that carry the same or similar character/temperaments. Traditionally French line malinois have been of a lighter bone density; faster, more agile, lots of fight, forward (sharpness) aggression, etc. Other lines are larger, more powerful, hard to correction, full of drive, etc. All depends where you're looking. If you think Belgian dogs are soft, ask around about Neilender's Endor. Belgian lines (so its been said) and hard as nails to extreme, archaic forms of correction, but relatively social w/ super nerves. You can find just about any kind of dog you want in any of the three homeland countries. Just have to look is all.


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

Endor , belgian lines lol #-o


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

Michael Murphy said:


> Endor , belgian lines lol #-o


"so it's been said." DNA test will tell all. who knows what's truly in any papered dog? but, that is a whole other thread. so, lets stick to the topic at hand, shall we?:roll:


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## Derek Milliken (Apr 19, 2009)

Michael Murphy said:


> Endor , belgian lines lol #-o


Explain Michael? Bred in Belgium, from a breeder who focuses on NVBK lines, and the dog was son of Zodt, grandson of A'Tim.


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

my bad sorry i must have confused him with another endor #-o
i do like A'Tim, cant believe Martine didnt get frozen of him, or did he?
anyways back on topic


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

here is another dog brn 2384, mixture of french ring and belgian ring in the pedigree, dog himself knpv ph 1 430


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

http://www.likeahurricane.nl/?L=EN&P=1

van de camp is doing knpv with a lot of nvbk malinois it seems, some french ring titles on some of the pedigrees too.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Michael Murphy said:


> my bad sorry i must have confused him with another endor #-o
> i do like A'Tim, cant believe Martine didnt get frozen of him, or did he?
> anyways back on topic


Martine is a woman...

did you ask Martine if they collected A'Tim?


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

i new that , error, i think i sent a pm few weeks back but didnt get a response


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

Yes. Martine is a woman. The man u see working the dogs in the videos is her husband Joao. I'm almost certain TIM has been collected. Not sure how much is left though. Lol


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

i know its joao trust me, iv seen like a hundred of their videos on the websites etc of their offspring.
you think he collected? it just doesnt seem like his using it, although he could be saving it.
do you think his male Fun is comparable to A'tim


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Michael Murphy said:


> i know its joao trust me, iv seen like a hundred of their videos on the websites etc of their offspring.
> you think he collected? it just doesnt seem like his using it, although he could be saving it.
> do you think his male Fun is comparable to A'tim


thier phone number is on their website, Martine speaks very good English, call them up...


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

i want to hear everyones opinion, not just from one perspective or maybe an nvbk perspective

i think you need to step away from the keyboard joby


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Michael Murphy said:


> i want to hear everyones opinion, not just from one perspective or maybe an nvbk perspective
> 
> i think you need to step away from the keyboard joby


ME??? lol

what kind of opinions are you going to get from people that do not have actual experience with both dogs? except uninformed ones? or guesses?


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## Mario Fernandez (Jun 21, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> ME??? lol
> 
> what kind of opinions are you going to get from people that do not have actual experience with both dogs? except uninformed ones? or guesses?


+1


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

That's basically what I've heard elsewhere, is guesses. I am not around enough of them to know a difference. 

Thanks for the info so far.


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

Derek Milliken said:


> Explain Michael? Bred in Belgium, from a breeder who focuses on NVBK lines, and the dog was son of Zodt, grandson of A'Tim.


Zodt was the grandson of A'tim?????


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

sorry he is , my bad A'tim also has two pedigree :-k


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

^ my bad, didnt get much sleep last night


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

so this is the litter mate of Endor, nierlenders egbert, currently a stud at nierlenders.


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

Michael Murphy said:


> i know its joao trust me, iv seen like a hundred of their videos on the websites etc of their offspring.
> you think he collected? it just doesnt seem like his using it, although he could be saving it.
> do you think his male Fun is comparable to A'tim


I will say that most successful handlers like a certain type of dog. So I am sure that they are comparable in some ways


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

I´m sure there are differentv types also in france, but very quick reacting dogs who want to please the handler but not so strong dogs is what I´ve heard from malinois people, more "sportdog" type. Also heard the first german dogs came from from france but those litters was sold back because they germans didn´t like them and got dogs from belgium instead, but in france those dogs was used in breedings quite frequently.

Don´t know how long the dogs should be breed in france for be called french lines, but these french dogs seems less "sporty" than some other french dogs,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IUsubHh-BM
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/232009/Bleck-vom-Engelthal

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIoWoYYaVGs
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/191064/Tréon-SKK-18582/2005-(Hoeglund)

Don´t know if this is what you mean by french line, but a nice dog I think,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9W5KEhZyRJU
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/55816/UsTon-du-Calvaire-aux-Acacias


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

Erik Berg said:


> I´m sure there are differentv types also in france, but very quick reacting dogs who want to please the handler but not so strong dogs is what I´ve heard from malinois people, more "sportdog" type. Also heard the first german dogs came from from france but those litters was sold back because they germans didn´t like them and got dogs from belgium instead, but in france those dogs was used in breedings quite frequently.
> 
> Don´t know how long the dogs should be breed in france for be called french lines, but these french dogs seems less "sporty" than some other french dogs,
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IUsubHh-BM
> ...


All depends. I know a few French line dogs that are not so eager to please. They are social enough, but have a serious edge. Not something I've heard, but have seen. Again it depends on the lines. Specific lines are known for specific traits.


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## Ryan Venables (Sep 15, 2010)

Zakia, which lines are those?

I'm deep in my search for a French line Malinois. We hope to get later this year or early next.

I think there are so many varieties over there in each country that you can get what you want from the different countries if you look hard enough.

I'm looking specifically at lines (generally French - with some exceptions) as I want a very trainable/biddable Mal (but not overly sensitive) that I do not have to go to war with to train in only Ringsport. However, I tend to like my Mals bigger - i.e. 80lbs - and, from what I gather, there are not too many big Mals competing at a high level in France (two that I think of off the top are Espion and Celtik)


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

doesnt michael ellis have some french line dogs, he knows what his doing it seems. get in contact with him maybe


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Michael Murphy said:


> doesnt michael ellis have some french line dogs


 What would lead you to believe that?


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

http://loupsdusoleil.com/

a lot of the pedigree have french ring titles, so i just assumed. not 100 percent sure as i dont know about french ring dogs


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Michael Murphy said:


> http://loupsdusoleil.com/
> 
> a lot of the pedigree have french ring titles, so i just assumed. not 100 percent sure as i dont know about french ring dogs


 Using that logic, my Malinois has a lure coursing title and now she's a sighthound.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Erik Berg said:


> I´m sure there are differentv types also in france, but very quick reacting dogs who want to please the handler but not so strong dogs is what I´ve heard from malinois people, more "sportdog" type. Also heard the first german dogs came from from france but those litters was sold back because they germans didn´t like them and got dogs from belgium instead, but in france those dogs was used in breedings quite frequently.
> [/url]


So you'd believe a person from Germany who's dogs have been getting beat in their own sport by a different breed from different countries? Don't believe anything "you hear" cause usually it isn't true. Even "sport dogs "can produce "real dogs". Litters are mixed with different temperaments and strengths in individual puppies, even the most inbred litters!
Also Germans didn't like the sportiness of their sport dog from France?


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Lots of French in here and the start of von lowenfels(German)
Airport Hannover (german)also used this dog multiple times as well!
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/367/Onix-von-Löwenfels


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Not to mention that some of Belguims top fci pedigreed ipo dogs were started from Elgos(French). Including joefarm and Duvetorre kennels.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

So what dog and bloodline/kennel is known for producing really strong Mals in FR more suited to police work than excel at the sport at the moment?


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Chris, there are so many kennels both in Belguim and France that intertwine lines as you probably know. Many were intertwined generations ago. Lots of French lines have Boscaillie and some even use nvbk lines. Some of the most serious dogs I've seen have been French. Some social, some not at all. The dog Adzo I just used is very strong and is comparable to any DS from the strongest lines, meaning he will fight till the end no matter what. Not sure what some people's opinion is on "close to handler" but most dogs don't work in the county over from their handler. Many of Adzo's relatives are mine dogs which I'd think would mean they have to be self sufficient in some situations, but I don't know the details on that sort of detection work. I guess it all depends on the individual breeder and their preference in dogs they pick for breeding out of their litters. 

I'm sure you know that not every DS off top lines is strong. Some may be quite weak, some in the middle and a bit more sensible thinkers, and some off the chart with aggression. That's where "selective breeding" comes in. It's just too hard for me to say what French dog is what without meeting them and knowing them from puppies and how they were trained and raised. Many French people don't speak English so communication is difficult. In general I'd say it takes a much stronger dog to get a ring 3 in France than it does in most other sports. Weak dogs are easily exposed in the type of work of, decoy vs dog! Every decoy is different and they are not presented bites like in many other sports.


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

Timothy Stacy said:


> So you'd believe a person from Germany who's dogs have been getting beat in their own sport by a different breed from different countries? Don't believe anything "you hear" cause usually it isn't true. Even "sport dogs "can produce "real dogs". Litters are mixed with different temperaments and strengths in individual puppies, even the most inbred litters!
> Also Germans didn't like the sportiness of their sport dog from France?


This was a person from finland, a "pedigree-nerd" so to speak. This what based on what that person have seen and read in articles and interviews about the history of the breed etc. The first malinois litters in germany was sold to france, late 60s somewhere. Peter engel from löwenfels also sold about 70% of his first litters to france when he started. He also thought the belgian dogs were of a stronger type, the french dogs a bit more sensitive but the french trainers could get far still with these dogs. Then of course there are a mix of different lines nowadays and people value different things, but I suppose many generations of a more sportier type of dog will more likely produce same kind of dogs.

If intressted there are intressting articles on this site about french malinois, peter engels interview etc,
http://www.malinois1.com/

This german article translated in english is quite intressting about the history of the breed in the various countries. Besides belgium and france the germans have been involved with the malinos the longest I suppose, the scandinavian countries not so long as the germans but about 20 years now. So intressting what going on in different countries with the malinois and if certain types develops,
http://vomstarken.com/index.asp?ID=333


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Thanks Erik, I'll read them!


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Chris, there are so many kennels both in Belguim and France that intertwine lines as you probably know. Many were intertwined generations ago. Lots of French lines have Boscaillie and some even use nvbk lines. Some of the most serious dogs I've seen have been French. Some social, some not at all. The dog Adzo I just used is very strong and is comparable to any DS from the strongest lines, meaning he will fight till the end no matter what. Not sure what some people's opinion is on "close to handler" but most dogs don't work in the county over from their handler. Many of Adzo's relatives are mine dogs which I'd think would mean they have to be self sufficient in some situations, but I don't know the details on that sort of detection work. I guess it all depends on the individual breeder and their preference in dogs they pick for breeding out of their litters.
> 
> I'm sure you know that not every DS off top lines is strong. Some may be quite weak, some in the middle and a bit more sensible thinkers, and some off the chart with aggression. That's where "selective breeding" comes in. It's just too hard for me to say what French dog is what without meeting them and knowing them from puppies and how they were trained and raised. Many French people don't speak English so communication is difficult. In general I'd say it takes a much stronger dog to get a ring 3 in France than it does in most other sports. Weak dogs are easily exposed in the type of work of, decoy vs dog! Every decoy is different and they are not presented bites like in many other sports.


The biggest put of with French dogs is trying to pronounce and remember their bloody kennel names. I admire the FR and enjoy watching it. And Adzo sounds nice. Is there many French dogs imported into the US?


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