# Should this behavior be curbed?



## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

I didn't know where else to ask this (my "pet" forum would have had a fit and said that dogs aggressive you should have it euthanized...etc) so here goes.

My GSD isn't a big fan of men to start with. She absolutely hates my husband and is tolerant of his presence only. She will allow strange men to pet her and tolerates them, but for the most part they aren't interesting to her...I guess that goes with be aloof, which is fine. However, my husband decided it was a good time to pick on me yesterday as I'm sitting at my desk. He's horsing around and tapping me in the arm, and finally hit a little too hard and it hurt (meanwhile I'm hitting him back) but I said "OUCH!" really loud and heard a low growl from my feet where my GSD was laying. I told him to knock it off as it was aggitating the dog, but he continued to pick at me saying I was making an excuse up because I was losing. Well anyway, long story short, his picking on me stopped when she stood up and came around the desk and growled at him, she kept looking at me and whining and looking back at him.

I don't know whether or not that's acceptable behavior. While my husband does belong in my house, he was taking horsing around too far and I understand it was getting to her. She doesn't like him that much to begin with, and never has since I got her, however she's never offered to bite because he's stopped when she started getting worked up. 

Should I curb this kind of behavior? If so, how?


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## Erika Moon (Jul 23, 2008)

Ashley Campbell said:


> Should I curb this kind of behavior? If so, how?


 Yes. Put a shock collar on the husband and give him a good solid correction for being an ass. Horsing around stops being horsing around when it starts to hurt and he doesn't stop when told.


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Erika Moon said:


> Yes. Put a shock collar on the husband and give him a good solid correction for being an ass. Horsing around stops being horsing around when it starts to hurt and he doesn't stop when told.


LOL!!! Yes I agree, his "out" needs more work.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Ashley, 

I would say that hubby gets what he gets after the warning (from both you AND the dog). This is how it happened in my house. 

And now, when I say, "UH, maybe that is not a good idea" he looks at the dog, who is staring intently but still in a down, and says "Hmmmm...can you put him/her outside so I can kick your butt?" 

Of course I do not put the dog out....LOL


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I have no idea why you would keep a dog that only "tolerates" your husband. I heard the "dog hates men" thing a lot when I was training pet dogs.

In the real world, we call this dog a piece of shit nervebag, and we put it down and get one that doesn't suck.

Hope that helps.


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Yep that helps a lot Jeff, thanks! I'll go have my dog euthanized because she prefers my company over my husbands.  While I'm there I might ask if they'll euth. me too, since sometimes I prefer the company of my dog over my husbands as well, lol. Never realized I was a piece-of-shit nervebag, but it's always good to know what my good qualities are.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Ashley Campbell said:


> While I'm there I might ask if they'll euth. me too, since sometimes I prefer the company of my dog over my husbands as well, lol.


Why not just euthanize hubby? :-#

Not sure that I would call the dog a nerve bag for making the decision to "protect" as it is trained to do.....it takes a lot of wrestling to get my dogs worked up, but if I start saying "STOP" and he keeps on, this is what seems to trigger my dogs.


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Carol Boche said:


> Why not just euthanize hubby? :-#


Because then I don't get his military life insurance, d'oh!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

You ARE a typical pet owner. It is funny the difference of opinion between the guy that actually knows dogs, and the pet owner.

I would be pissed as hell if my dog growled at my girlfriend, and even more embarrassed to hear the nerve bag growl and whine wanting to do something about what was happening, and being to big a shitter to do anything about it.

But what do I know, this is probably like your 2nd dog, so you have all the answers figured out. 

Well it has been nice chatting with you, put me on ignore and have a nice life.


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Oh please, take your pity party elsewhere with the "put me on your ignore list" BS. I have thicker skin than that and it's going to take more than a typical response from you to make me take my ball and go home.

I've seen some of your other posts, and I see that it's typical for you to have that kind of opinion. Hey, it's a forum, that's what they're there for. However, I can't say that I didn't find it amusing what you said and felt a funny response was in order for it. 

So I'm a pet owner, interested in working dogs, I had a question about my own dog and a nice snipey reply was in order from you apparently. I never said I wasn't a horrible and disgusting "pet" owner...damn me straight to Hell. 

At least I'm not asking potty questions, lol.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

ashley campbell said:


> at least i'm not asking potty questions, lol.


amen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

Jeff be nice. You have to decided what is o.k. in your house. I had a pit that would growl if my son's mother woulld yell and try to hit my son. I kept the dog and explained that she should not do that while the dog was out. this actually worked well . by the time she put the dog away she would calm down and he would be out of a beating unless he really needed one.If I have a dog trainined in p.p. everyone better mind there manners. the dog is not smart enough to know the difference.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Ashley Campbell said:


> I didn't know where else to ask this (my "pet" forum would have had a fit and said that dogs aggressive you should have it euthanized...etc) so here goes.
> 
> My GSD isn't a big fan of men to start with. She absolutely hates my husband and is tolerant of his presence only. She will allow strange men to pet her and tolerates them, but for the most part they aren't interesting to her...I guess that goes with be aloof, which is fine. However, my husband decided it was a good time to pick on me yesterday as I'm sitting at my desk. He's horsing around and tapping me in the arm, and finally hit a little too hard and it hurt (meanwhile I'm hitting him back) but I said "OUCH!" really loud and heard a low growl from my feet where my GSD was laying. I told him to knock it off as it was aggitating the dog, but he continued to pick at me saying I was making an excuse up because I was losing. Well anyway, long story short, his picking on me stopped when she stood up and came around the desk and growled at him, she kept looking at me and whining and looking back at him.
> 
> ...



Hi Ashley,

We can work on desensitizing your dog to men when you come out tomorrow night. It will help if she isn't at home and doesn't think she is "protecting" you. On the other hand, if your husband isn't going to be involved with her training
and be part of her hierarchy, then it would be best if you guys don't "fight" in front of her. It sounds like she acted appropriately given her training. She warned your husband and didn't just bite first.


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Hi Ashley,
> 
> We can work on desensitizing your dog to men when you come out tomorrow night. It will help if she isn't at home and doesn't think she is "protecting" you. On the other hand, if your husband isn't going to be involved with her training
> and be part of her hierarchy, then it would be best if you guys don't "fight" in front of her. It sounds like she acted appropriately given her training. She warned your husband and didn't just bite first.


Thanks, I'm really looking forward to it.

I'm still trying to convince him to at least come and watch sometime so he at least knows what's going on.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Ashley Campbell said:


> Thanks, I'm really looking forward to it.
> 
> I'm still trying to convince him to at least come and watch sometime so he at least knows what's going on.



Keep working on him. I've got a sleeve with his name on it ;-)


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## Butch Cappel (Aug 12, 2007)

Ashley, 
I think the ladies summed it all up, but if I may add one other tidbit?

About twenty years ago I developed a program for domestic violence victims to use dogs for protection from stalkers and violent ex's. I then donated the dogs to the women, for whatever time it took for the dog and the stalker to have a meaningful meeting. 

Very difficult to find the right dog for this kind of work, but the key ingredient was the dogs ability to asses a potential problem and respond without a command (because many women may be gagged by their stalkers or facing a weapon if they talk).

This characteristic is not mentioned much in today's training circles, but back then we called it Responsibility! It wasn't something I could train into a dog, it was something they had.

And one other thing all the dogs used in the program were female GSD, I guess it is a sisterhood!


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Great and funny thread. Better be a bad ass dog because any dog pull that in my house were are going to settle it right then even if I have to get a bat and a chair. Dog may not like me but he won't make the same mistake twice. Now how come nobody thought of that??? Or, if anyone did, why didn't they say it. The dog has done it once, he will do it again now......and I am not even a trainer.=;


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## Guest (Aug 11, 2009)

Sorry to hear about your trouble. This doesn't sound like an "aloof" dog thing, it sounds like a dog that was improperly socialized as a young pup. No amount of conditioning your dog to men is going to make your dog reliable around them at this point. It can help, take the edge off but in all probability, from the sounds of it, this is how she was RE-wired.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

What she doesn't realize is she is giving control over what she and her husband do to a dog that is not worth feeding.

The growl whine thing is the key to how I know what this dog is.

When the dog got into business that was not hers, and then it stopped she won. It is just a matter of time before she cheap shots the husband.

I am always amazed at what people will put up with. The pet person see this as "protective" behavior and is incorrect.


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Great and funny thread. Better be a bad ass dog because any dog pull that in my house were are going to settle it right then even if I have to get a bat and a chair. Dog may not like me but he won't make the same mistake twice. Now how come nobody thought of that??? Or, if anyone did, why didn't they say it. The dog has done it once, he will do it again now......and I am not even a trainer.=;


Just a question, since I'm no trainer...but wouldn't being aggressive (such as the bat and chair) just make the dog more prone to distrust you and more likely to be a "nervebag" and bite you? I don't see that as really fixing the problem but exacerbating it to the point where the dog is really going to think "This guys a douchebag and he's history"...at least that's what I gathered from my behavioral class for my vet tech. cert. but I disgress, it was a short class. At the very least I don't think it would make the dog respect anyone that did something like that and would make them more likely to be volatile. Just my opinion though.

Vin, I couldn't even tell you what her socialization was as a pup. Long story short she was a breeder "repo" and was about in the shape of the Malinois someone else posted. I ended up with her after going to look at pups (yeah I can resist the cute puppy thing and take the scrawny scraggly half adult)

Men don't get her particularly riled up, she chooses to ignore them (like my male friends that come over) - she doesn't come at them aggressively or anything like that, so perhaps "tolerate" was an incorrect term to use.

I don't see it as a "bad" (as in, take Ol Yeller out and blow his brains out right now) behavior, but I don't want to see it escalating to him being bitten because he's being an ass.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

That's pretty much the way I see it Jeff. The dog is going to be braver next time and it will get harder to control each time the dog wins.. Luckily the dog isn't a contender or he would have been bit when the dog thought it was serious enough to get up.


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> That's pretty much the way I see it Jeff. The dog is going to be braver next time and it will get harder to control each time the dog wins.. Luckily the dog isn't a contender or he would have been bit when the dog thought it was serious enough to get up.


So how does the dog "lose" for lack of better term? That was my main reason for posting the question.
Also, if she'd gotten up and tore into him for it, that'd have been worse, yes? It's hard to understand what you're saying about that aspect of it because in one breath it seems like "the dogs a puss if it didn't bite him" but the dog would have won if she'd have nailed him as well?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Hey Don, what do I know, they tell me I am just the "internet expert" LOL

Forget the fact that I have dealt with this God knows how many times.

The owner will shop around until she gets the opinion that she wants.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Don Turnipseed said:


> even if I have to get a bat and a chair.


Hubbies bat tends to be the business end of a .223 with dogs....so I don't allow that...LOL[-X


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Hey Don, what do I know, they tell me I am just the "internet expert" LOL
> 
> Forget the fact that I have dealt with this God knows how many times.
> 
> The owner will shop around until she gets the opinion that she wants.


Actually I got a varied response, and asked more questions. I guess that's not good enough for you. 
If I didn't want OPINIONS (whether I liked them or not) I wouldn't have posted it in a forum, or is that too hard for you to understand? I'd have self-validated her response and never asked because in that case, in my book, it would have been "right". 

Sorry to be ignorant on how to take that kind of behavior and to ask for opinions, but obviously you feel compelled to keep coming back with no actual input other than snarky comments. If it didn't interest you or you didn't find it fun you wouldn't come back to it over and over again.

My deepest apologies if my ignorance offends you.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Ashley Campbell said:


> Just a question, since I'm no trainer...but wouldn't being aggressive (such as the bat and chair) just make the dog more prone to distrust you and more likely to be a "nervebag" and bite you? I don't see that as really fixing the problem but exacerbating it to the point where the dog is really going to think "This guys a douchebag and he's history"...at least that's what I gathered from my behavioral class for my vet tech. cert. but I disgress, it was a short class. At the very least I don't think it would make the dog respect anyone that did something like that and would make them more likely to be volatile. Just my opinion though.
> 
> Vin, I couldn't even tell you what her socialization was as a pup. Long story short she was a breeder "repo" and was about in the shape of the Malinois someone else posted. I ended up with her after going to look at pups (yeah I can resist the cute puppy thing and take the scrawny scraggly half adult)
> 
> ...


Ashley, first off men have earned the right to be asses....believe it!! Besides, that's what attracts most women and that is why you now call him "husband".

The dog was a reject from what you are now saying in this post. That should tell you something and he will bite someone shortly....for some reason. From what I am reading, it wouldn't take a bat and a chair to have the dog under the desk. The bat and the chair was the scenario of "even if it took that because the dogs was a bad ass". Let me ask you something to bring some reality into this....Why would I care if the dog crumpled if he was being aggressive with me in my house. I wouldn't. I would rather him crumple than for the dog to bite me in the face. I am going to guess that training for a vet tec is going to have a bit of a different spin because the dogs are no yours that you are dealing with. Handle them and have the owner pick them up and if they get bit it is their problem. And no, the dog wouldn't be more apt to bite me later....and neither would he challenge me a second time.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

I guess my question for Jeff and Don is, How would you teach the dog to act appropriately? 

(no bat and chair or kick it in the head comments....I can hear those ones already  )

But seriously, what can you recommend to her to help her with the dog? 



I should add here that if my dogs break the down, they are verbally corrected and physically if needed. 
Remember, I have lowly SAR dogs and pansy ass Sch prospect dogs...hee hee


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Ashley Campbell said:


> So how does the dog "lose" for lack of better term? That was my main reason for posting the question.
> Also, if she'd gotten up and tore into him for it, that'd have been worse, yes? It's hard to understand what you're saying about that aspect of it because in one breath it seems like "the dogs a puss if it didn't bite him" but the dog would have won if she'd have nailed him as well?


Ashley, it's your dog and you should have corrected it right then....not next time. She won because there were no reprocussions. Believe me, even if she had bit him, she only wins if you do nothing, she loses if heaven and earth fall on her.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Boy, this is all getting really deep. Ashley, I've owned three GSD bitches since I was a teenager and if a man, hubby or otherwise had hurt me, it would have generated the same response in the dog, or worse. I figure the growl was an acknowledgment of his pack position. She could have just nailed him. The whine is the conflict. My parents raised me that a GSD has one master/mistress and they tolerate others in the household. Since I've been married, the GSDs I've had clearly were my dogs. Hubby is fine to feed while I'm gone and certainly any command he gave, they obeyed. They clearly see hubby as #2 in charge. The only thing that ever set Ingrid off was when we were playing and he picked me up and my feet were off the floor. With Teva, I was pissed at him and she growled at him. I hadn't even said anything which is my way of being pissed. He certainly hadn't done anything outward towards me. Both of these bitches went everywhere and were not reactive. Neither one of mine had issues with men and I raised them both from puppyhood. With both incidences, I immediately platzed the dog. We have had his and her dogs and just try to not have these type of situations. We used to laugh when Thor-bouv was younger and I'd tell him to heel and he'd go to hubby's left side and look up at him. I'd have to give him a second command. We handle each other's dogs and they go along with it. 

Personally, I wouldn't play power games in front of the dog. She's shown you what she thinks the hierarchy is. You have to step in as the leader to let her know that you are in control of the situation.

Terrasita


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Carol Boche said:


> I guess my question for Jeff and Don is, How would you teach the dog to act appropriately?
> 
> (no bat and chair or kick it in the head comments....I can hear those ones already  )
> 
> ...


That is a good question Carol, I am not a trainer and don't know the politically correct methods of correction. If one of my dogs were to growl at me, I would snatch him off his feet so quick and give him a good cuffing that he will not do it again....but they are solid dogs and don't hold it against me because they really just wanted to see how far they could push it. One time Higgins was unhappy about me grabbing a hand full of fur on his back when he tried to slip by me at the gate. This was a tough SOB and he swung around and grabbed me by the forearm....which for him was just about from the wrist to the elbow. He was almost a 100 lb airedale. He had my arm and those beady black eyes were staring at me and I dropped 240 lbs on him and beat him about the head until I thought I had broke both hands. I cussed him and would have picked him up and thrown him back in the yard but I couldn't open my hands by then. He just got up and looked at me like "well ok then" and went back in the yard. Why did I do that to him and almost cripple myself.....because he was a great dog and I knew I could never win if he ever was serious so....you take the wind out of their sail and hope to hell you don't piss them of in the process. Of course there was a fair amount of fear on my part also or I may have quit while I still had use of my hands. Learned something I never forgot that day also. Never hit a dog in the canines....they don't come out like a persons teeth and you won't be able to open your hands. Long story short, why spend months pretending your a therapist when one correction will solve the problem. Higgins died some months back at 14 1/2 and we were always great friends. 
How Ashley is going to be able to handle this dog is another thing simply becuase, if it isn't stable enough, sure, my methods would ruin it and I would put it down and get a solid dog. I would guess a trainer that can train her as well as the dog....Jeff comes to mind.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Boy, this is all getting really deep. Ashley, I've owned three GSD bitches since I was a teenager and if a man, hubby or otherwise had hurt me, it would have generated the same response in the dog, or worse

So they would have growl/whined in response ?? Would you have stated that they had issues with men ?? She did.

Here you go, here is the opinion you have been shopping for.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: I would guess a trainer that can train her as well as the dog....Jeff comes to mind.

How RUDE. : )

People that don't get the answer they want are the reason that I don't train other people's dogs anymore.

You see 50 or 60 of these shitters that have "man" issues and of course the person that has had one or two knows best.

It is just not the kind of dog you should feed, as there are plenty more out there that are actually worth a ****.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Jeff,

Neither of my bitches had problems with men or anything else. Ingrid was one of the hardest toughest bitches I've owned. When hubby picked me up and my feet left the floor, Ingrid grabbed him--didn't bite down. When he let me go, she jumped on him and licked his face. You could tell she was conflicted about it. No other interaction had ever caused her to think she should intervene. It was something about my feet leaving the floor. With Teva---no whine. She actually put herself between us and growled at him and then a cold hard stare which is why I jumped up immediately to put her down. This is a hard one. It seems that all was fine until he hurt her. Our house rule is that any dog in it had better be 100% fine with the human inhabitants. But that said we realize with the bouvs and the GSDs that they really have one person that they see as the be all and end all. If hubby commands one of mine to do something, they have to do it and he is the one to enforce it. Same thing with Thor. If my kid tells a dog to do something, they damn well better. I have issues with a man that will hurt a woman so called in play and keep at it even though she said stop. Some of them get off on seeing if they can get a rise out of the dog and then pull the macho over power the dog and the woman. Like I said, we don't play these type of power/control games so I can't relate. But if you are going to have the man and the dog, take control over the dog before hubby thinks he needs to man up on it. Then it could get really ugly. You know the dog's propensities. Don't put it in this situation. 

Terrasita


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I recall a GSD X Collie I had as a kid. She went after my old man for going after me. The old man beat the crap out of both of us. :-o


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Bob Scott said:


> I recall a GSD X Collie I had as a kid. She went after my old man for going after me. The old man beat the crap out of both of us. :-o


When I was young our neighbor, Bjorn, had a big GSD named Thor. Thor would follow me all over the neighborhood, not any other kids but me.....

I was in the backyard and Dad was picking up lawn trimmings and he asked me to do something and I smarted off.....

Dad walked over, jerked me up to spank me and Thor laid his forearm open.....stitches and all. 

Bjorn was going to throttle the dog, and Dad said...."no, he takes care of my girl, so I will spank her when she gets in the house, but I appreciate you letting the dog hang out with her" 

Thor died of old age and the spankins increased....LOL


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Hahaha, my mother would lock Jessie in the basement if she wanted play disciplinarian. She used to say it was either that or kill her. One of her friends asked her why she allowed me to keep the dog. Her response was that chances of anyone getting to me through that dog was slim to none and she worked nights. The dog was there to take care of me and my brother. Besides the dog's first act of heroics was in her defense with the nutso boyfriend. My mother always said that she was one dog before 3:00 [when I got off the school bus] and another afterwards Before 3:00 she followed my mother around the house and would do anything she asked of her. As of 3:00 you had to lock the doors, lest she show up on Skinker and Delmar to meet the bus and she was suddenly deaf to commands. 

Terrasita


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Neither of my bitches had problems with men or anything else.

Then how does that apply to one that does ???


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Neither of my bitches had problems with men or anything else.
> 
> Then how does that apply to one that does ???


Jeff

I don't see this bitch as having that much of a problem.
Ashley said in her first post that she tolerated men and allowed
strange men to pet her but was aloof? I don't see any problem there. The problem is with the husband not being involved in training the dog, so he is NOT a pack member.
Then when he "attacks" Ashley, the dog warns him off.
Ashely is going to come out to a small training group
tomorrow night and I'll get to see lacey in person.
I don't see a temperament issue. I see a training issue or 
maybe just a control the environment?


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Agreed, "usually" when the claim is the dog has a problem with men, you see fear behavior of some sort whether its flight or sharpness. This one just lies there and ignores them. Ask the op what she thinks of the men she's around and you might gain more insight into what's going on with the dog. Its great that someone is close that can get a read on the dog and talk pack leadership and training. I figure she'll be aloof with him. Aloof doesn't mean fear. They simply ignore you. You can pet them. They don't shrink and look worried. Standard fare for a mature adult GSD. Thomas can tell the difference between aloof and fear. I think we have one of those definition issues. She says she "hates" hubby. Hate is a strong word. She also says that they play these power games with the dog quite frequently. Does hubby always hurt her or she indicate so? I think the dog is confused as to what is going on. Too many mixed signals. One pack member seemingly hurting another. What is she supposed to do? 

I understand what you mean by standard "my dog hates men" or "my dog hates kids." But maybe this is a little different.

Terrasita


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## Dan Long (Jan 10, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Jeff
> 
> I don't see this bitch as having that much of a problem.
> Ashley said in her first post that she tolerated men and allowed
> ...


I'm not sure I agree with this. My wife and kids are not a part of my dog's training, but they are "pack members" who have a higher standing in the pack than the dog does. I'm the one the dog listens to but the dog respects their position in the hierarchy. 

I think the right thing to do in this instance would have been for Ashley to take charge, show her leadership, and remove the dog from the situation. Having the husband do anything that would put more fear into the dog would most likely only cause the dog to escalate faster next time with a cheap shot bite. No need for "come to Jesus meetings" or anything that might put more fear into a dog that has what appears to be some fear based issues.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Don Turnipseed*
> _That's pretty much the way I see it Jeff. The dog is going to be braver next time and it will get harder to control each time the dog wins.. Luckily the dog isn't a contender or he would have been bit when the dog thought it was serious enough to get up._
> 
> ...


I thought this thread was going to die quietly and I was going to refrain from posting.

Intrafamilial aggression is a serious problem - not only because of the implications, but also because there are very few ways to evaluate this, unless the dog is living in a home with a trainer or the dog is so severe that it continues the behavior in the presence of a trainer.

My comment is to the "how does the dog lose." The dog "loses" when it receives correction so severe that it discontinues the behavior. For some dogs, a verbal "Enough!" is appropriate, but there are dogs in the world that most humane correction of the severity required to end the aggression will leave the dog unconscious.

*The dog can certainly lose after the bite*, if the person being bitten has the balls to hang in there and aggress, rather than retreat, and then deliver the apprpriate correction calmly.

I see a major control issue, and of course no comment on temperament without more information and video and/or seeing the behavior.


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## Tamara McIntosh (Jul 14, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I have no idea why you would keep a dog that only "tolerates" your husband. I heard the "dog hates men" thing a lot when I was training pet dogs.
> 
> In the real world, we call this dog a piece of shit nervebag, and we put it down and get one that doesn't suck.
> 
> Hope that helps.


Not every dog can be perfect. I am not sure vets or humane societies accept "because Jeff O said so" as a good enough reason to slaughter dogs at random. 

And not every owner starts off as a genius in dog training either. We all have starting points in our learning.

The key thing that she said to me was "the hits were starting to hurt".

I can not actually say that I have been in this poisition or that I ever will be, as if the fight starts to hurt, my response is "why don't you just go have a nap". At which point I would take a baseball bat to the husband, as I drop the divorce papers. When several bones were broken I would ask "would you like to keep dicking around now that it hurts?" As Eddie Murphy said very succicintly "even my father doesn't hit me, mofo". It is about respect between people, and it seems to be severely lacking in this relationship.

For me the main point of this entire conversation is NOT the dog. It is the dynamics of this person and her husband. I really don't mean to offend here... however if this person can not stand up to her spouse (whom should be the strongest relationship in her life, I mean she has made a lifetime committment) to stop the horsing around at a point where pain is getting involved... she is obviously not playing a pack leadership role for her dog, because she is also not playing that role for herself. Which means her dog probably feels the need to take this position.

Sometimes the dog has more respect for the person than they do for themselves.

To call the dog a POS is super unfair as it is the responsibility of the owner to control the situation.

Tamara McIntosh


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Tamara McIntosh said:


> Not every dog can be perfect. I am not sure vets or humane societies accept "because Jeff O said so" as a good enough reason to slaughter dogs at random.
> 
> And not every owner starts off as a genius in dog training either. We all have starting points in our learning.
> 
> ...


Ditto and TY for posting.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Anne Vaini said:


> Ditto and TY for posting.


I met Ashley and her dog last night. Lacey is aloof, that's it.
She wasn't much interested in hot dogs, but she did let me
scratch her ears after I passed her sniff test. No aggression, no fear, just not very interested in anyone but Ashley.

Tried a little bit of rag (Fenzi Frenzy) work and she didn't seem very interested. We'll try again next week when we have a real
decoy there (instead of me). Otherwise, we'll concentrate on
Obedience towards a BH and see if some more drive develops in the future. I re read some of the comments. 
IF jumping to conclusions ever becomes an Olympic sport I know a couple of people who will be Gold Medal contenders


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Ok, bet me I am wrong.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

*Bet*



Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Ok, bet me I am wrong.


Hey Jeff

You're gonna have to narrow down what you're wrong about, before I can decide whether I'll take that bet 
Lacey wasn't all that much different from the GSD's you had before you finally got Buko.


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## Guest (Aug 13, 2009)

Carol Boche said:


> I guess my question for Jeff and Don is, How would you teach the dog to act appropriately?
> 
> (no bat and chair or kick it in the head comments....I can hear those ones already  )
> 
> ...


This is going to get jeers, but you can clicker condition your dog to be relaxed around things that you recognize stress her out. I won't even get into the complexity of your situation, but you might try to find a certified behaviorist on your area. Ask for degrees, diplomas, credentials and titles. You want to find a PhD or somone who is a certified consultant of animal behavior. You need to find someone who will not be abusive to your dog and actually knows animal behavior science. You may hear a bunch of "pop him with the e-collar" garbage from people who claim to be "trainers" and"behaviorists" but steer well away from that kind of thing. That is how you will certainly send your dog off the deeper end.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

No jeers on the marker training but are you referring to Lacey? You want her to clicker train her dog being comfortable with hubby hurting her? Or you want her to clicker train a dog/breed that is supposed to be "not given to indescriminant friendships" i.e. aloof. Again,this doesn't mean fear, uncomfortable etc. It means that she gets all her social needs from her owner/handler. She will ignore others---not cringe, lunge, bite, etc. Ignore. They don't exist.


Terrasita


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I never had them do what she has described. 


Axel was quite friendly, Jinxie didn't care if you touched her at all, but didn't go out of her way to get patted.

Both were cute, but useless.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I never had them do what she has described.
> 
> 
> Axel was quite friendly, Jinxie didn't care if you touched her at all, but didn't go out of her way to get patted.
> ...


Jeff,

No Matter how cute or useless. If I had came up to you at training and started hitting you with a 2x4. How would either of your dogs reacted? Would they have bit me or at least growled? That is all that Lacey did. Her mistress was "attacked" she warned the attacker off.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Me and my roomates would run around and smash each other with WWF moves. Neither would bite us, or growl.

It was her husband remember : )


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Me and my roomates would run around and smash each other with WWF moves. Neither would bite us, or growl.
> 
> It was her husband remember : )


Jeff,

I don't know how dogs think. Your dogs didn't consider your room mates as a threat to you. For whatever reason Lacey
considered Ashley's husband to be threatening to her?

Of course maybe it's just that Lacey really likes Ashley and your dogs didn't care if you got beat up?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

You got me !!!! That is probably the truth of the thing. LOL


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Hey Thomas, had a great time out with you guys and look forward to going again 

Jeff, fun stuff the WWF smashing people into the floor moves, I've been the "test dummy" for some of those before. We don't do it anymore because of expensive shit in the house, but it was fun in my first singles apartment.  You know the type, you break everything in the house and you're out $15...like Jeff Foxworthy said.



> Not every dog can be perfect. I am not sure vets or humane societies accept "because Jeff O said so" as a good enough reason to slaughter dogs at random.
> 
> And not every owner starts off as a genius in dog training either. We all have starting points in our learning.
> 
> ...


I agree with what you said. We play rough, I'm a foot shorter and a good 60 lbs lighter than him, so accidents happen and sometimes we get carried away. I'm certainly as much to blame as him for it, as I usually hurt him back - so I'm guilty as charged. 

Point being, we don't need to horse-around as rough to begin with, and certainly not around the dog if it's going to be a cause for upset (maybe the wrong term but you get what I mean) I just don't want a repeat, that's all.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

Ashley Campbell said:


> Point being, we don't need to horse-around as rough to begin with, and certainly not around the dog if it's going to be a cause for upset (maybe the wrong term but you get what I mean)


and there's the answer to your question. see? you knew it all along, just (perhaps) needed to crystalize the thought. been there, done that


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

ann freier said:


> and there's the answer to your question. see? you knew it all along, just (perhaps) needed to crystalize the thought. been there, done that


Yeah, I hate when that happens, ugh. Being misty brained here recently hasn't been fun.

On a side note, I'm convincing hubby to get more involved with training the dogs. We had a moment of clarity tonight with one of the other dogs that really put things in perspective. Our golden retriever hopped his happy butt up on the couch and pawed hubby for attention, which he gave...as I sat there with one of those looks like "WTF are you doing" and said "boot his ass off the sofa and don't give him attention for demanding it..."
Whomever wrote that the dog has no respect for him is right...actually, none of them do. They respect the kids more than hubby, at least when one of the kids (ok, 2 out of 3 since the baby can't talk and they aren't allowed in her room) tells them to get off their bed or the sofa, they comply and get down. The retriever sat there and looked at him stupid until I told him "OFF" and he hopped down.](*,) At least that finally gave him the idea that the dog doesn't listen to him because he allows them to be asshats. And they say women baby animals, pfft...lol.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Ashley Campbell said:


> Yeah, I hate when that happens, ugh. Being misty brained here recently hasn't been fun.
> 
> On a side note, I'm convincing hubby to get more involved with training the dogs. We had a moment of clarity tonight with one of the other dogs that really put things inhappy butt up on perspective. Our golden retriever hopped his happy butt on the couch and pawed hubby for attention, which he gave...as I sat there with one of those looks like "WTF are you doing" and said "boot his ass off the sofa and don't give him attention for demanding it..."
> Whomever wrote that the dog has no respect for him is right...actually, none of them do. They respect the kids more than hubby, at least when one of the kids (ok, 2 out of 3 since the baby can't talk and they aren't allowed in her room) tells them to get off their bed or the sofa, they comply and get down. The retriever sat there and looked at him stupid until I told him "OFF" and he hopped down.](*,) At least that finally gave him the idea that the dog doesn't listen to him because he allows them to be asshats. And they say women baby animals, pfft...lol.


Keep talking Ashley. The answer becomes more apparent with each post. There are definite parallels

"He's horsing around and tapping me in the arm" parallels "Our golden retriever hopped his happy butt on the couch and pawed hubby for attention"

""boot his ass off the sofa and don't give him attention for demanding it..." pretty much parallels your reaction to ""He's horsing around and tapping me in the arm" 

There are a few mor there that have to do with who respects who but it is late and I am outa here.....but you get the idea.


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