# Questions, Mostly for Breeders [of any breed]



## Aaron Myracle (May 2, 2011)

A little back-story to my question here; I got my current bitch when she was 14 weeks old.

The breeder had just gotten confirmation that a breeding by the sire we'd been in love with had taken.
If I wanted pick litter, I need to make my deposit fast because this sire was popular. The breeder was local, so we went over to make it in person.

We met the dam. 
We met the sire [whereupon my spouse immediately offered to buy HIM instead of a puppy. It truly was love at first sight, and I tell my breeder every time we talk, if she wants a home for him when he retires...  ]

And then the breeder offered to show us three pups held back from a previous litter by "our" sire, to get an idea of his progeny.

In the end, we brought home a pup I thought I'd never get- a 14 week old puppy.
I worried she'd be slower to bond after so much time with her litter, after all, isn't 8 weeks the ideal time to get a pup?

I quickly changed my mind about the "ideal" time to bring a pup home.
At 14 weeks, housebreaking was a breeze. I only had to wake up in the night and potty her once.

Puppy biting? She'd been with her litter mates long enough to learn not to bite pack members. Tugs, rags? Sure, she'd attack 'em with fury. But she never mouthed, nibbled or bit a member of the household as a pup.

If you'd asked me a year before I got her [or even the day before I met her], I'd have sworn up and down that I'd never have gotten a puppy that old. Now I find myself wanting to ONLY ever get a pup at that age. I've come to the conclusion that the dogs benefit greatly from that additional time in the litter.

As a breeder, how would you feel if someone asked you to hold their puppy back longer?

For example, due to some odd circumstances, I have a floating deposit for pick male from a future litter of my choosing. [Long story, I can explain if needed]

Ideally, once my puppy is selected, I would ask that the breeder hold the pup until all of his litter mates are gone, giving him as much opportunity to socialize within his litter as possible.

Obviously, this could end with all the pups being sold at 8 weeks, and I end up with the pup at 8 weeks. 
Usually, though, one or two pups end up staying longer- either because the breeder is evaluating them as potential additions to her own program, because there weren't enough of a certain color or sex or "type" in a given litter and people transfer their deposits to a different litter, etc.

As a breeder, though, how would you feel about this sort of request from a buyer?

If you're absolutely against it, why?

For those willing to consider it, what things would influence the decision?

Has anyone else ever encountered this, either as a buyer who asked a pup be held longer, or a breeder who was asked to hold a pup longer?


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

We have a puppy now, who stays longer. She's going to Ireland, and due the new rules per jan 2012 she can travel at 16 wks( used to be 10 mo.). We've kept a female for ourselves and they are together in the whelpingkennel/ puppy pen.

The pups to the US who aren't picked up in person at 7/8 wks stay here till 10 wks, before 10 wks the airlines doesn' t allow flying. From the last few litters there mostly were 1 or 2 longer here. I don't mind, but there is a little add to the puppyprice (cost for the extra shots) and a -imo- reasonable boarding price.

Also from the last litter a boy stayed 1 wk longer due to a family weekend, no probs.


----------



## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

Fairly normal for sled dogs for puppies to be kept together longer - say 10 -14 weeks, either due to circumstance of delivery/pick up or due to buyer request or breeder choice. I do think they adapt better to a new home at a later age and have better social skills. Nobody left here until after 14 weeks this last litter and a couple stayed longer than that.


----------



## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I've held a few pups longer than 8 weeks, usually due to the timing of the pups being shipped or picked up, however they were gone by 9 weeks. I would consider keeping a pup longer but would be adding $ to the price of the pup. That's an extra 6 weeks of work for the breeder, I doubt any buyer wants the pup just sitting in a kennel with a littermate, older dog, or on it's own for those 6 weeks. So we are talking foundation work, house breaking, socialization, etc which IMO the buyer should expect to compensate the breeder for. Not to mention my pups are almost always all sold by 5-6 weeks, many times sooner, so unless someone has to back out last minute, or I'm keeping a pup for myself, there won't be other littermates here past 8 weeks for the pup to be interacting with. 

Generally when I have someone ask me to keep a pup longer, I talk to people in my club who live in the area and ask if any of them want to take the pup for 6 weeks for the buyer. When the buyer finds out what it's going to cost them, they decide to pick up their pup at 8 weeks instead.


----------



## Ricardo Ashton (Jun 3, 2010)

As a breeder, I don't find any issue with keeping a pup back @ the buyer's request. I may or may not charge for boarding. I don't ever charge for first vaccines, thats in the sale price, & I keep vacs at home so 2nd shots aren't much of an issue, I just absorb the cost. But some people can cause problems in the equation. One fella had asked this of us a few yrs ago. Said he'd pick up @ 16 weeks. Then he changed his mind for whatever reason (he said he thought the pup would be a bit too much for him to handle after seeing him a bit older) & wanted to transfer to another litter. That still wasn't a issue. Short story shorter I opted to keep him for myself after the guy changed his mind. In the end he wound up wanting the first pup, at 9 months old, and ended up with just a refund and an escort to the gate.
Since that we started letting buyers know holding them isn't an issue as long as they know that their deposit or payment for that pup was exactly that. FOR THAT PUP. No transfers without a valid reason, & if you set a date to pick up your dog and don't, and if 2 days after the date for pick up he is still in my kennel with no real reason from the buyer,he will be sold and you will be refunded upon arrival.
It's not too bad if pups stay with mom and the sibs for past weeks. They actually learn a few things like bite inhibition for one. It's just that some bad habits may form in that period that a buyer may find difficult to break. The pup is significantly more dependent on you at an earlier age,and this also helps solidify some things during the bonding process, like teaching the recall.
What ever the age, there will always be pro's & cons to different ages of getting a puppy. The key is to work with what you got when you got it.


----------



## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

If I ever do a breeding again I will sell pups at 8 weeks to expericed people who have raised a Malinois. But to a newbie. but other than that I will keep the pups till they are 6 mos. I have had a good experience with me laying the foundation a Pup. It was the determining factor I believe in the pups success at the new home.

For me, I care more about the dogs success than the buyers desire. I know that may not sit well with a lot of people. But the pups life and success is important to me. I get the calls wanting a "hard" dog, or high level comp dog. They want to test the dogs, do this or that. But refuse to answer simple questions about what kind of life they kind provide the dog. Needless to say, they can go to a breeder whom wishes to sell pups for the sake of moving them. I feel my responsability lies to making the puppies happy.


----------



## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

I think it depends on the breeder and the dogs.

A few months ago, I got a Malinois foster pup at 12 weeks old. Back yard breeder and the pups were seized by animal control, but I don't know much beyond that. I'm guessing based on what I saw in the time I had my foster, so take it as just my opinion. I'm also not sure what was nature vs nurture in this pup.

I know that they were kept together - I was going to take the female pup but she was seriously trying to take on my DS female when they met and I saw that ending badly for the pup. The 'submissive' pup I ended up with could quickly escalate to aggression with other dogs. That makes me think he learned a fight or die attitude from having no alternative with his siblings. 

House training was easier because he had the potential to have more control, but he came with no clue how to be clean. I turned my attention away from him for a moment in the kitchen and he started peeing right beside me, even though he had just come in from being outside. On the other hand, he was soon sleeping through the night with no need for a midnight pee break. 

He had no bite inhibition and left some serious bruises on me. 

He was very spooky with people. Again genetic or the way he was raised?

I know the breeder of my DS separates pups very young because they can be pretty nasty with each other, even at a very young age. Another breeder I mentioned this to told me that for his dogs, 7 weeks was ideal to send them home because after that they start getting seriously ugly with each other.


----------



## Erin Lynes (Feb 3, 2010)

I have had enough interest in older (Lab) puppies that I have started offering what I call 'headstart' training to certain buyers. Basically, the pups stay with me until they are 16 weeks and I do the house/crate training, early obedience & marks, get a good start on socializing, and continue exposure to birds/gunfire/ water etc. I don't do it for free - I charge $600 for the extra 2 months, which includes a 3rd vx and deworming while they are here. Too cheap really, but I do it more as a favor - I don't offer it for every litter, and only 1 or 2 pups at a time so that I'm only raising puppies when I have the time/energy to do it right. Normally my pups go home at 8 weeks but an older puppy really is a treat, especially when they have had some work done. 

As for payment, people pay for the puppy AND the training in full by the time the pup is 8 weeks old. They are given a firm pickup date at the end of the training period. So far haven't had any issues there. 

~Erin & the Eromit Labs


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i find this intriguing

sounds like many breeders do not see much benefit in keeping litters intact until the bitch has weaned them and cost seems to be a big factor
- if you remove the cost factor, would that mean that they feel a "qualified" owner can do a better job, or that it doesn't matter that much when litters are broken up ??

disclaimer : not talking about pet store dog farmers here
....here in Japan it is STRICTLY a business reason : the smaller they are, the cuter they are, and the easier they are to sell off. period ...young pups getting the uglies are hard to "move"
... the excuse usually given is that the dog will be screwed up as an adult if doesn't get to a human owner asap for "proper imprinting" :-(

...which is one reason i haven't found a breeder over here i will buy a pup from that has been separated early from a broken up litter the other is a lack of follow up on previous litters and almost NO interest in working their lines)

i have confidence i know how to raise a pup but i don't feel i can be as effective as the K9 mom for some aspects of this process, but that's just me


----------



## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

I do see any difference in dog's left the litters. Maybe a half speed dog needs to have it's enviorment that controled in order to make him work. But I think a solid dog. Will be just fine.


----------



## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

The breeders that I have dealt with have been fine about holding my pups till 10 -12 weeks. My last 3 pups were all late pick ups due to distance and other factors. I would have paid extra but the breeders didnt want that.

The breeder that I want my next working dog from holds his pups till they are 4 months old so he can decide what he wants to keep and then match the other pups where he thinks they will be best suited. He always seems to have a waiting list for his pups.


----------



## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

rick smith said:


> i find this intriguing
> 
> sounds like many breeders do not see much benefit in keeping litters intact until the bitch has weaned them and cost seems to be a big factor


I think it depends on the breeder. I keep my pups together until they go to their new homes, although as mom weans them she spends less time with them, basically however much she wants. But they also have "aunts" and "uncles" who they start spending a lot of time with. I know other breeders who do the same. Sometimes we have puppy fights, but nothing like some people describe where pups are seriously trying to kill each other. But my adults won't allow that either, if the pups get to into a fight they will step in and break them up if needed.

After 8 weeks though I prefer the pups to not be together all the time. If I have multiples here for some reason, they will get to play together at times but I would rather they have 1 on 1 time with the people, adult dogs, and time by themselves. Keeping pups together constantly until they are 3 or 4 months old is easy, but I don't like what I see in the pups in terms of the focus on other dogs vs humans. I expect my pups to grow up with good dog social skills, as they will be living in a pack setting with multiple other dogs, but I think pups that grow up with littermates in a kennel until 3-4 months are missing out on a lot. In general I wouldn't by a pup from that situation, unless I was only interested in the genetics for breeding and not the dog as a competition dog.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I have to agree with Kadi. I wouldn't keep littermates together through 16 weeks. I separate mine at 8 weeks and crate train them and leash break them. They have gone to new homes between 10 and 12 weeks. There's plenty that I like to do training-wise with my own from 12-16 weeks and even before. If you watch the bitch raise the litter, she has the schooling pretty much done by 8 weeks. By then, I think you've gotten the dog socialization stuff and its time to continue their human/dog relationships and training.

T


----------



## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

After 8 weeks though I prefer the pups to not be together all the time. If I have multiples here for some reason, they will get to play together at times but I would rather they have 1 on 1 time with the people, adult dogs, and time by themselves--Kadi


This is would be my definition of "keeping them together". 

So yes at 8 weeks, they would get thier own crate.


----------



## Dana McMahan (Apr 5, 2006)

I would agree with Kadi. I would not want a puppy thats been left with its littermates that long and its not like it would be spending a great deal of time specifically with the mother. As a handler, you would really have to trust the breeder to be doing a good job with your puppy in the early stages and for me, I'd rather do it myself to know things were done the way I wanted.


----------



## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

The breeder I know that keeps back pups to 4 -5 months old separates them up and starts foundation type work and assessments etc individually with the pups. I would be happy with that given the quality of his dogs and his training skills. (way better than me LOL)

In general the ones that have been held back for me are normally the last to go and I have never had any bonding issues but that has been between 10 and 12 weeks old. My best dog was picked up at 12 weeks. I know most agility folk round here like to pick them at 8 weeks and dont like waiting any longer.


----------



## Aaron Myracle (May 2, 2011)

To clarify, the pups that weren't sold at 8 weeks were separated into their own runs.
They ran together some during the day, but meals and nights were spent in separate runs.

My question was less "would you hold a dog back until a certain age" and more "if you had other dogs from the litter that hadn't yet sold, would you hold back the sold puppy and allow ongoing socialization until the other pups were sold or the buyer felt the pup was ready to come home."


----------



## Laney Rein (Feb 9, 2011)

If you read, most of the breeders said No they would not want to hold back the pup as it cost them considerably more time and energy - thus money-back to keep a pup back longer than other littermates. Unless they were already keeping pups back, it would be inconvenient to have to provide tie and training into one pup. Those that stated they would do it said they would for add'l funds and described different scenarios in how that time would be spent. While they did say that yes, there were benefits to sometimes keeping pups together longer, it could also hinder their human interaction bonding and could develop bad dog/puppy habits.


----------



## John Nolan (Jun 30, 2011)

We will keep pups back but prefer that they leave us at 8 weeks. Pups kept back are usually going o/s so can't leave until 12 weeks. We put more work in on the pup(s) from 8 to 12 weeks & charge for that. The pups are also seperated during this period at night & for periods during the day they can play together. IMO they earlier they go, the better the bonding with the new owner.


----------

