# The 1st rule of a FAMILY COMPANION guardian



## Lee Robinson

Someone on another topic asked me what makes a "family companion guardian"...discussion of drives and bite work came into play...then eventually conversation of OB and such came into play...but what was missed is the first rule of a family companion protection dog. Now...who makes this rule? Well, relax...I don't make the rule. It is logic and reason that makes the rule.

There is nothing on this earth more important to me than my children. If you don't have kids, you don't understand this. If you do...then you should understand this. 

What is this rule that was overlooked? Well, the first rule of a FAMILY COMPANION guardian is to *do no harm.* This is of utmost importance in a family dog. More so in family dog than any other type...as they are often with people 24/7. They do not live to work. They are not kept in crates or kennels except when needed. They live with people that are not K9 professional handlers. So, the dog must have a mindset that produces a state of mind that leads to "doing no harm" with those it loves and lives with. Of all the professional K9 handlers I have met, the majority of them that "live with" their service dogs don't have kids...but most of these handlers (children or not) don't actually live with them. Some do, but they are more of the exception than the rule. Many sport trainers also keep their dogs kenneled to help keep the dog's drives and motivation up...and to add to their dog's sharpness when they work their dogs. They don't want their dogs to "relax." Many of these K9 handlers actually have another dog for a pet.

Now, in previous posts...some people talked about the importance of OB...and although OB is important, if we are honest we should admit OB is more for society than it is the family. No doubt OB makes living with a family easier too, and I wouldn't say otherwise. But we are not talking about being "easy" to live with. We are talking about being SAFE to live with. In the home, it is TEMPERAMENT and STABILITY that makes a dog safe. OB can help and can "adjust" and "control" temperament...sure...but it isn't the same thing as a dog that naturally knows its place and that naturally has a clear mind...not 24/7.

A FAMILY COMPANION GUARDIAN cannot be a rank driven dog. Why? Because in life, companions live with the family. They are not kept in crates, kept in kennels, or in an air conditioned patrol car except when worked. And, in real life...people do not have 24/7 ob. Temperament trumps ob. Ob is important for control, but it is temperament that brings safe predictability in the house.

A family companion guardian must be stable...not overly sharp or overly nervy. Now...some patrol dogs, service dogs, and sport dogs may not be too sharp or overly nervy...but anyone that denies that many of them "act so fast they hardly have time to think" isn't admitting that the dogs learn to respond to movement as a reflex action. How would your typical top performing mal react at a cook out with a guest over...and after the cook out you decide to have a cup of coffee...and the guy spills the coffee and jumps up in a reflex getting burned and hollers out an "AHHH." Most "great" sharp mals would be on him like a fly on ____. But...that is ok. As those dogs are BRED to be sharp. However, a FAMILY shouldn't really be around a dog like this IMO all the time. People are free to disagree with my opinions. That is fine...but the truth is TEMPERAMENT and STABILITY is extremely important in a family guardian.

A patrol dog or sport dog gets this in OB...but in a home...where we relax and have a beer while the kids are playing with the pups...OB isn't enough. The dog has to have a degree of being aware of its place and role and loyalty to the family to "FIRST DO NO HARM." 

Anyway, this is why I like a submissive dog to a family, but driven with those it doesn't know.

*1st, do no harm.*

What good is a "family K9 protector" that you can't trust with your kids? After this rule is understood, then the dog is welcome to do what is necessary to STOP others from harming those we love.

Now, if you don’t' have kids, there is no need to come back with a reply and say..."my dog lives with me." And, if you crate your dog, kennel, or patrol car with the air conditioner on for your dog to "keep an edge" for work...then don’t come back and say "my dog lives with me."...because if either of these are the case, then you miss the point.


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## Chris Michalek

Lee Robinson said:


> Now, in previous posts...some people talked about the importance of OB...and although OB is important, if we are honest we should admit OB is more for society than it is the family. No doubt OB makes living with a family easier too, and I wouldn't say otherwise. But we are not talking about being "easy" to live with. We are talking about being SAFE to live with. In the home, it is TEMPERAMENT and STABILITY that makes a dog safe. OB can help and can "adjust" and "control" temperament...sure...but it isn't the same thing as a dog that naturally knows its place and that naturally has a clear mind...not 24/7.


you don't think a dog can be easy AND safe? 

No importance on OB? Seriously, that's just plain dumb. But perhaps I misunderstand how does a lack of OB equal safe?

Wouldn't it be better to have a dog that is trained to be more reactive than active? Dogs shouldn't be the ones who decides who they bite.


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## Lee Robinson

Of course...but you missed the point. Did you read the post? OB is to make life easy, but it doesn't make the dog safe 24/7. This is where temperament and staibility come into play.

Also, where did I say OB was not important. Did you read the post?

Who said dogs should be the ones to decide? In fact, if you read the post, you should have noted the "coffee spill cook out" situation.


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## Chris Michalek

you say it's important but then go on to underemphasis the issue.

No dog is 100% safe, they all have a breaking point. For a trained dog that usually means that you are dog to bite their way out of pressure. 

Then again, I don't know shit about PP. I spend most of the time telling my Malinois to STFU.


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## Lee Robinson

Where did I underemphasize the issue of OB? I said it adds control. You and I both know control is important. 

That said, safety is also important. And, this is where temperament and stability come into play.

If you want to judge me for my opinion, that is fine with me...but do so by reading what is written...instead of assuming or putting words in my mouth please. This way, we can stay on topic and have fewer misunderstandings.

I once had a Swinford dog that had a c-section to get the last 2 pups out of her (she had a total of 15 pups). The vet the did the section made a mistake in the suture...and 4 days later her sutures broke...and her intestine spilled out. I was not at home. My wife 115 pounds and my children 9 year old girl and 2 year old son at THAT TIME had to deal with her until I got there. The dog was stable when in extreme pain. I have had dogs injured in the field (woods) and had to do emergency care until we could reach a vet. Not once have we ever had a dog turn on us. A simple, "Be still!" is all a stable temperament dog needs to be told even when in pain. The temperament and stability of this type of dog is something that is not uncommon among APBT (although there are also a lot of unstable APBT out there too) and similar breeds. Unless you have experience with that type of dog, I don't expect you to understand this extreme.


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## Thomas Barriano

*Another Lecture?*



Lee Robinson said:


> [FONT
> Many sport trainers also keep their dogs kenneled to help keep the dog's drives and motivation up...and to add to their dog's sharpness when they work their dogs. They don't want their dogs to "relax." Many of these K9 handlers actually have another dog for a pet.[/FONT]
> 
> I'm not sure what you are basing this statement on. I've been around 100's of sport trainers and MOST that I know the dogs
> are family pets first and run around the house
> 
> Now, in previous posts...some people talked about the importance of OB...and although OB is important, if we are honest we should admit OB is more for society than it is the family. No doubt OB makes living with a family easier too, and I wouldn't say otherwise. But we are not talking about being "easy" to live with. We are talking about being SAFE to live with. In the home, it is TEMPERAMENT and STABILITY that makes a dog safe. OB can help and can "adjust" and "control" temperament...sure...but it isn't the same thing as a dog that naturally knows its place and that naturally has a clear mind...not 24/7.
> 
> Huh?
> I was talking about obedience during bite work. clean outs,
> call offs off lead control. Nothing to do with basic obedience
> (sits, downs, get in your kennel) around the house.
> 
> " And, in real life...people do not have 24/7 ob. Temperament trumps ob. Ob is important for control, but it is temperament that brings safe predictability in the house."
> 
> OH contrare, obedience IS 24/7 I tell my dog platz it doesn't matter if he is in the front yard, in the park, doing a trial Ob routine or running down the field on a courage test. IF I say platz he is going to platz, no matter what. Anything else isn't
> obedience.
> 
> A family companion guardian must be stable...not overly sharp or overly nervy. Now...some patrol dogs, service dogs, and sport dogs may not be too sharp or overly nervy...but anyone that denies that many of them "act so fast they hardly have time to think" isn't admitting that the dogs learn to respond to movement as a reflex action. How would your typical top performing mal react at a cook out with a guest over...and after the cook out you decide to have a cup of coffee...and the guy spills the coffee and jumps up in a reflex getting burned and hollers out an "AHHH." Most "great" sharp mals would be on him like a fly on ____. But...that is ok. As those dogs are BRED to be sharp. "
> 
> Good grief, this is plain silly. You are making broad over generalizations of a breed you've never owned and sports
> you've never competed in. Based on what?
> 
> snip
> 
> I'm at a loss to explain your motivation for this post. It's not like you're trying to start a conversation. It seems most of your posts on this forum take the form of lectures. You're making broad statements, about sport and police dogs and you have limited, if any, experience/exposure to either. Now you've changed from "training PP dogs" to claiming that they're "Family Companion Guardians" and all you have to be concerned with is temperament and stability? Sounds like a great excuse for not having any ob and sloppy bite work control.


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## Lee Robinson

*Re: Another Lecture?*

The motive is to define what I meant by "Family Companion Guardian," as this was discussed in another topic. They are PP dogs for family applications suitable for civilian work.

And, not doing ob 24/7 means your dog isn't always being instructed...because *YOU can't work the dog 24/7*...not if you have other things to do...which would apply to most people of course. So, temperament and stability are important because they come into play even when your not instructing the dog.

Finally, based on previous conversations and your history of "going on forever" with off topic rants...*Thomas, I've decided to add you to my "IGNORE LIST*." That way, I won't be bothered with reading your future nonsense. I thought you should know this so you don't worry about why I don't reply to you in the future. It is because I'm not interested in even seeing what you write. As you tend to overlook facts and deviate from the subject. And, I just don't have that kind of time anymore. Summer's over. SO...enjoy.


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## Howard Gaines III

Lee Robinson said:


> ...
> There is nothing on this earth more important to me than my children. If you don't have kids, you don't understand this. If you do...then you should understand this.... What is this rule that was overlooked? Well, the first rule of a FAMILY COMPANION guardian is to *do no harm.* .


Lee the points may be good but...
1. I don't have kids, but I DO understand the concept. I don't have to fall off a house, break my legs and back, to understand about job site safety!
2. The first rule had better be to comply with the wishes/commands of the owner/handler! All other rules and regs fall into place!


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## Thomas Barriano

*Show and Tell*



Lee Robinson said:


> Finally, based on previous conversations and your history of "going on forever" with off topic rants...*Thomas, I've decided to add you to my "IGNORE LIST*." That way, I won't be bothered with reading your future nonsense. I thought you should know this so you don't worry about why I don't reply to you in the future. It is because I'm not interested in even seeing what you write. As you tend to overlook facts and deviate from the subject. And, I just don't have that kind of time anymore. Summer's over. SO...enjoy.


More of Lee's diversion and miss direction and projection. He can add me and any of his other critics to his avoidance list, that wouldn't change the FACTS. Talk about temperament and stability is great, but it is all talk, unless you TEST for it.
In Schutzhund, before you can earn your first title you have to do a BH (traffic safety test) a Temperament test. In my sigline I list some of my dogs TEMPERAMENT TESTS along with their
performance titles. CGC's, CD titles, Breed specific temperament tests, American Temperament testing Society test.
I test for temperament and I'm not even peddling any puppies.
Ask Lee how many (if any) of HIS dogs have a simple basic CGC, much less a ATTS test or any kind of companion dog or
traffic safety test. People are supposed to believe that his (or anyone elses) dogs are stable and have proper temperament, cause they say so or put something on their website?

Thomas Barriano
Dubheasa Germania (11/05/99-08/11/08) SchH III M R Brevet AKC WD III AWD 1 STP 1 CD WAC TT
Ascomannis Jago (06/20/03) SchH III AKC WD III AWD I TT WAC
Belatucadrus (08/14/05) Dutch Boy BH TT
Flannchadh von der Bavarianburg (5/21/08) CGC


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## leslie cassian

Geeez Lee, by your standards, my (lean) 100 lb LabX is a perfect family companion guardian. He's big and black, stable and reliable around just about everyone, but alerts to strange noises and also alerts on leash to suspicious looking people (lots of drug dealers and hookers in my neighbourhood). He has a big, deep, imposing bark.

I've done barely any formal obedience work with him - he has little inclination for 'work', even with food as a motivator, but just naturally is easy to live with and fairly polite. I think he knows sit and come here. He can be off leash and will not run off. He has never been crated or kenneled and has always lived in the house.

I've never tried him on a sleeve as I don't have a helper available to try, but I'm pretty sure I could get him to bite and look pretty serious. He does like to play tug. 

No idea if he would step up in 'real' situation, or if any of my dogs would, including my Malinois. I'm counting on the deterrent factor of three large dogs in my house and a lifestyle that doesn't encourage home invasion scenarios and hoping I never have to find out if any of my dogs would protect me or would run. I'm the kind of person that is more worried about my dogs than myself anyway and would try to protect them.

I'm not sure what's so special about your 'family companion guard dogs' that is any different from what many dogs already bring or that couldn't be found lounging in a shelter waiting to be a family pet.


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## maggie fraser

Lee said....

_Now, in previous posts...some people talked about the importance of OB...and although OB is important, if we are honest we should admit *OB is more for society than it is the family.* No doubt OB makes living with a family easier too, and I wouldn't say otherwise. But we are not talking about being "easy" to live with. We are talking about being SAFE to live with. In the home, it is TEMPERAMENT and STABILITY that makes a dog safe. OB can help and can "adjust" and "control" temperament...sure...but it isn't the same thing as a dog that naturally knows its place and that naturally has a clear mind...not 24/7._

Where do families live? On an isolated mountain top or in the kalahari with no interaction with society....


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## Lee Robinson

Leslie,

Obviously the "follow up" of a PP dog is important. Barking alone is not enough. Now, if your lab has the follow up to remain committed to an engagement...then there certainly is nothing wrong with that. I have actually met a female yellow lab that would do that. I don't know why a yellow would be any different than a black, but to date I haven't met a male lab or a black lab that would...but if you have one that will follow up with force...then great. However, if I had to choose between "no follow up" or "instability & dominance"...well, personally I would choose "no folllow up" because again...the 1st rule is "do no harm." I would never bring a dog into my home to live with my kids if there wasn't first a reasonable degree of trust. Fortunately, I don't have to make that choice. We have seen dogs that are both "stable & servent minded to their families" AND also "willing to engage" in a single package. It is this type of dog that makes a Family Companion Guardian.

Again, first do no harm.

Now also, if your mal can fit the bill...that would be great too.

Howard,

You don't have to fall off the house to understand pain, but you do have to fall off to feel the pain. Understanding the concept is something an open minded person can do...but FEELING it is something else. The love that one has towards their children is unique. Perhaps having neices or nephews would give you an understanding of this if you raised them. Once a person has something like kids, then we realize that we need to look at our dog's predictability a little differently. "TT" and such no longer really count. Dogs learn "situational" complience through training...and "situational" behavior isn't predictable enough in the real world to really evaluate HOW predictable a dog may be around kids during a stressed situation. A kid may or may not play with a service dog (depending on the dog and the handler of course), but they certainly SHOULD BE ABLE to safely play with a companion dog. Temperament and stabilty help hugely in this department...and pain tollerance may also benefit at times, as kids some times can be rough. IMO, a dog shouldn't even raise a lip to children, especially those that live there...because their not a threat. I remember once when my3 year old boy was trying to get my attention while I was talking to another adult. My son, Conner, said, "Daddy, Daddy" and then wacked me in the family jewels...as when he reaches up his hand just happens to find that perfect height.  What did I do...I bent over and said, "Don't do that. Wait just a minute." I didn't take his head off. Instead, I walked it off. Now, kids need guidelines and restrictions as well. But, they are not perfect and some times accidents happen. I want to know that my dogs has a stable mind and a safe temperament because when an out of ordinary situation arrises it is important to me to have a high degree of reliability and predictability. Now someone earlier stated nothing is 100% and all dogs have their limits. I won't disagree with that, but we can CERTAINLY stack the odds IN OUR FAVOR, instead of stacking the odds against us...and temperament and stability do and excellent job of this. A high pain tollerance even stacks it in our favor even more. OB stacks it in our favor even more. ETC...as I think we see the point. I also think durability helps. I like a tough, stable minded dog. When my kids run around, should they fall on the dog the dog will just look up or get up and move...or maybe even join in the play. 

So, I gotta believe 1. 1st do no harm. After that...by all means feel free to "Take a bite out of crime."


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## Jack Lee

I can not believe discussion is almost same to what in china.
In china , many people believe OB is very important , some people do not.
For ordinary people , I usually do not advise to PP train , My suggetion to them , live with the dog more than 8 hours/A day , do not crate or lock them too long , Especially mals.
By living together in friendly enviroment , the mals can learn enough thing.


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## Howard Gaines III

*Now someone earlier stated nothing is 100% and all dogs have their limits. I won't disagree with that, but we can CERTAINLY stack the odds IN OUR FAVOR, instead of stacking the odds against us...*

I can see that you have taken so good shots here laterly on the forum. A MS degree in Animal Science doesn't do much for me and those who throw down with their PhD titles, many that I have met can't dump piss out of a boot! Common sense and real world experience out do college bookwork any day. The real test of a dog or person is with the individual and not titles or awards before or after the name! With that said...

Some of your points make for interesting reading and stacking the odds in one's favor are always wise forms of planning. The CGC is IMO a feel good certificate and I too have one on a Bouv. At any time, a dog can have an off day or be pushed to limits that require them to act out, the end result could be a bite or nip...even with the CGC training. I would rather bust the a$$ of a bad kid and understand their behavior made the dog act out. Well trained dogs will get up and avoid conflict.

Chris is correct about the 100% issue. A family dog should be under reasonable control and conflict with the pack family should not go untouched! In the real world every person and animal have limits of BS they can take. Keep posting.


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## Randy Allen

Seems to me what's being described by Lee is a herd guardian in it's simplest form.

<shrug> What an original idea.

Randy


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## Jim Nash

Lee stated ;

" What is this rule that was overlooked? Well, the first rule of a FAMILY COMPANION guardian is to do no harm. This is of utmost importance in a family dog. More so in family dog than any other type...as they are often with people 24/7. They do not live to work. They are not kept in crates or kennels except when needed. They live with people that are not K9 professional handlers. So, the dog must have a mindset that produces a state of mind that leads to "doing no harm" with those it loves and lives with. Of all the professional K9 handlers I have met, the majority of them that "live with" their service dogs don't have kids...but most of these handlers (children or not) don't actually live with them. Some do, but they are more of the exception than the rule. Many sport trainers also keep their dogs kenneled to help keep the dog's drives and motivation up...and to add to their dog's sharpness when they work their dogs. They don't want their dogs to "relax." Many of these K9 handlers actually have another dog for a pet. "


Just another perspective for those who just may be relying on Lee's information here. I'm a Police K9 Handler in a 22 K9 unit and a past trainer of that unit . 21 of those K9's are Patrol K9's all GSD's . The other is a single purpose Bomb Detector Mal .

Everyone(except 1 Officer) in our unit has kids . Most are still married . Over half our K9's are living inside the home alongside their family and most with other dogs in the house . Of the other half that don't have their K9 inside with the family the majority of those dogs could easily get along with the family but the Officers choose not to and I commend them for taking their responsiblity for that dog seriously .

For more on my perpsective compared to Lee's , we train the majority of PSD's in Minnesota which is around 200 Patrol dogs and under 100 detector dogs . I was a past USPCA Region 18 treasurer and at the time we had around 300 members (most current and some passed K9 handlers). We have a 2nd Region #12 that is about the same size . We have also trained dogs for departments in North and South Dakota , Wisconsin and Iowa . The MAJORITY of those dogs lived inside the home with their families . 

As a trainer did I encourage this? No . 

Not because these dogs would go after anything that moves like Lee would like you to believe , but because they are DOGS and accidents can happen . The main reason it's encouraged by some agencies , that PSD's should be kept apart from freely roaming around the family at home is because that dog belongs to a department/agency and is a tool needed to keep it's citizens and fellow Officers safe . If the dog has an accidental bite most of the time it's the handlers fault but the K9 is usually at risk of being removed also . As for having it around other pets it's discouraged for similar reasons . If a fight occurs between their pet and the work dog the PSD could be injured and need to be taken off the street because of it . 

The abilty to get along with family and visitors are just one of the signs of a stable dog . One that is confident and doesn't see everything as a threat . It's one of the traits we look for in a PSD . There are tons of stable sport and PSD's out there that can do what Lee describes . His dogs are NOT the magic bullet . 

Are there PSD's that aren't good being around the family or visitors ? Yes . Some are still excellent PSD's others are not .

Some of these dogs through looking at all of it's bahaviors still make good PSD's because their other traits and behaviors make up for this . Other PSD's simply aren't cut out to be PSD's in the first place and this lack of confidence around family and visitors is one of the signs . 

Lee is comparing apples to oranges . He's using a PSD or Sport dog with confidence or control problems to a " Family Companion guardian" with good confidence . 

IMO , he is just advertising his dogs again . 

Lee sells PPD dogs in a market where the vast majority of these PPD's will never come into a situation where their "abilty" to protect for real will be needed . Barking as a deterent maybe , but actually engaging someone very rare . 

He also sells big unique dogs with an intersting story behind them . Something that's very attractive to many buyers . 

He also has lots of pictures and videos of big dogs barking and biting a sleeve at the end of a lead (ok you have a few videos of short off-lead bites too) . All this can be very impressive to his target market , which are folks with very little knowledge of protection dogs . They often see a dog barking aggressively and biting a sleeve and that enough for them to believe that dog will do it for real .

The thing about OB being secondary , how convenient since his target market usually knows little about OB and doesn't want to do much OB . I think it's also convient for Lee and his abilities also .


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## Thomas Barriano

*First do not harm*



Randy Allen said:


> Seems to me what's being described by Lee is a herd guardian in it's simplest form.
> 
> <shrug> What an original idea.
> 
> Randy


About as original as the new "First do not harm" catch phrase.
I think the Greeks coined the phrase a few centuries ago as part of the Hippocratic (sp) oath? 
Go to any shelter or GSD rescue group and you can get the exact thing that Lee is describing for a lot less money and with a known history of breed temperament. It's just like "talking"
about how tough your dogs are or how obedient they are, if you never test them. Talking about Temperament and stability
don't mean diddly squat unless you test it INDEPENDENTLY.
Anything else is just sales 'talk" and self promotion :-(


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## Lee Robinson

Howard, 

I agree with you that letters behind a name don't mean everything...and this would be even moree true for K9s than it is for people. My neighbor has a SchH titled dog that they purchsed for their family guardian...unfortunately, their dog bit another neighbor's kid. Common sense is indeed invaluable.

Jim, 

You state..."_His dogs are NOT the magic bullet . Are there PSD's that aren't good being around the family or visitors ? Yes . Some are still excellent PSD's others are not .Some of these dogs through looking at all of it's bahaviors still make good PSD's because their other traits and behaviors make up for this."_

I don't claim my dogs to be the "magic bullet." I say they have what I look for in a family companion guardian. A family guardian...no matter "how good" it may be in some other area can NOT make up for not being good around the family.

The post has one purpose. Someone asked ME what is a family companion guardian...so, I wanted to clarify the first rule. This rule makes sense in many areas of care and life saving fields...and that is why it is also used in the medical profession as well. Once this rule is met as a FUNDAMENTAL requirement, then we can obtain the other duties.


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## maggie fraser

Lee said....

_Someone asked ME what is a family companion guardian...so, I wanted to clarify the first rule._ 

From where do you derive your authority on such matters please? I think it would help if this were clarified....


Are there any psychologists on this board?


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## Mike Scheiber

Jim Nash said:


> Lee stated ;
> 
> " What is this rule that was overlooked? Well, the first rule of a FAMILY COMPANION guardian is to do no harm. This is of utmost importance in a family dog. More so in family dog than any other type...as they are often with people 24/7. They do not live to work. They are not kept in crates or kennels except when needed. They live with people that are not K9 professional handlers. So, the dog must have a mindset that produces a state of mind that leads to "doing no harm" with those it loves and lives with. Of all the professional K9 handlers I have met, the majority of them that "live with" their service dogs don't have kids...but most of these handlers (children or not) don't actually live with them. Some do, but they are more of the exception than the rule. Many sport trainers also keep their dogs kenneled to help keep the dog's drives and motivation up...and to add to their dog's sharpness when they work their dogs. They don't want their dogs to "relax." Many of these K9 handlers actually have another dog for a pet. "
> 
> 
> Just another perspective for those who just may be relying on Lee's information here. I'm a Police K9 Handler in a 22 K9 unit and a past trainer of that unit . 21 of those K9's are Patrol K9's all GSD's . The other is a single purpose Bomb Detector Mal .
> 
> Everyone(except 1 Officer) in our unit has kids . Most are still married . Over half our K9's are living inside the home alongside their family and most with other dogs in the house . Of the other half that don't have their K9 inside with the family the majority of those dogs could easily get along with the family but the Officers choose not to and I commend them for taking their responsiblity for that dog seriously .
> 
> For more on my perpsective compared to Lee's , we train the majority of PSD's in Minnesota which is around 200 Patrol dogs and under 100 detector dogs . I was a past USPCA Region 18 treasurer and at the time we had around 300 members (most current and some passed K9 handlers). We have a 2nd Region #12 that is about the same size . We have also trained dogs for departments in North and South Dakota , Wisconsin and Iowa . The MAJORITY of those dogs lived inside the home with their families .
> 
> As a trainer did I encourage this? No .
> 
> Not because these dogs would go after anything that moves like Lee would like you to believe , but because they are DOGS and accidents can happen . The main reason it's encouraged by some agencies , that PSD's should be kept apart from freely roaming around the family at home is because that dog belongs to a department/agency and is a tool needed to keep it's citizens and fellow Officers safe . If the dog has an accidental bite most of the time it's the handlers fault but the K9 is usually at risk of being removed also . As for having it around other pets it's discouraged for similar reasons . If a fight occurs between their pet and the work dog the PSD could be injured and need to be taken off the street because of it .
> 
> The abilty to get along with family and visitors are just one of the signs of a stable dog . One that is confident and doesn't see everything as a threat . It's one of the traits we look for in a PSD . There are tons of stable sport and PSD's out there that can do what Lee describes . His dogs are NOT the magic bullet .
> 
> Are there PSD's that aren't good being around the family or visitors ? Yes . Some are still excellent PSD's others are not .
> 
> Some of these dogs through looking at all of it's bahaviors still make good PSD's because their other traits and behaviors make up for this . Other PSD's simply aren't cut out to be PSD's in the first place and this lack of confidence around family and visitors is one of the signs .
> 
> Lee is comparing apples to oranges . He's using a PSD or Sport dog with confidence or control problems to a " Family Companion guardian" with good confidence .
> 
> IMO , he is just advertising his dogs again .
> 
> Lee sells PPD dogs in a market where the vast majority of these PPD's will never come into a situation where their "abilty" to protect for real will be needed . Barking as a deterent maybe , but actually engaging someone very rare .
> 
> He also sells big unique dogs with an intersting story behind them . Something that's very attractive to many buyers .
> 
> He also has lots of pictures and videos of big dogs barking and biting a sleeve at the end of a lead (ok you have a few videos of short off-lead bites too) . All this can be very impressive to his target market , which are folks with very little knowledge of protection dogs . They often see a dog barking aggressively and biting a sleeve and that enough for them to believe that dog will do it for real .
> 
> The thing about OB being secondary , how convenient since his target market usually knows little about OB and doesn't want to do much OB . I think it's also convient for Lee and his abilities also .


Jim this sonabitch is relentless I get the part that you should or need clarify what cop dogs are and supposed to be, job well done by the way.
For the rest of you this guy ain't no Emilio or DanE or what ever he calls himself now. Hes simple,boring and he sucks to kick around his dog pictures are boring the stories he makes up are stupid the videos are Pffft.
Lee you need to step it up a notch!!! enough of this stupid shit I'd like to see something more ridiculous for the next week I'm tired of shaking my head. 
You must have your self a set of camo fatigues how about kicking off them sandals and dressing up military style strap on one of them hog legs and making some real dog training videos.
Or my vote for you is off to band camp.


----------



## Randy Allen

Thomas,
'Do no harm', isn't that also a saying for dog handlers? Meaning if one doesn't know what one is doing, don't screw the dog up with bad training.

I just figure Lee is practicing what he preaches, so no or little training. Presto, perfect family dog, let him learn the rules of that house.


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## Thomas Barriano

"My neighbor has a SchH titled dog that they purchsed for their family guardian...unfortunately, their dog bit another neighbor's kid. Common sense is indeed invaluable."

Good Grief, another friggen vague reference designed to denigrate Schutzhund dogs from someone who has NEVER even trialed, much less titlled in Schutzhund :-(

I doubt the story has any veracity in the first place. Second who is the dog, What is his title SchH i II or III, who trained him, where did he
title, why was he sold etc etc. Any body who has been around awhile knows of half azzed dogs that barely title in Schutzhund being sold to naive wannabees for top dollar as PP dogs. It's probably easier to sell
a snarling protection dog with a "Schutzhund" title then just on a good line of BS


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Randy Allen said:


> Thomas,
> 'Do no harm', isn't that also a saying for dog handlers? Meaning if one doesn't know what one is doing, don't screw the dog up with bad training.
> 
> I just figure Lee is practicing what he preaches, so no or little training. Presto, perfect family dog, let him learn the rules of that house.


Hey Randy,

If it's not also a saying for dog handlers it should be 
Training? We don't need no stinkin training. We'll just breed natural protection dogs. LOL


----------



## Thomas Barriano

My neighbor has a SchH titled dog that they purchsed for their family guardian...unfortunately, their dog bit another neighbor's kid. Common sense is indeed invaluable.


Another thought (I try to have a couple eveyday VBG)
The neighbor must have been real impressed with what was available in his neighborhood (Lee's dogs) if he went a bought a Schutzhund dog


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## Jim Nash

Lee , this is what I originally stated ;

" The abilty to get along with family and visitors are just one of the signs of a stable dog . One that is confident and doesn't see everything as a threat . It's one of the traits we look for in a PSD . There are tons of stable sport and PSD's out there that can do what Lee describes . His dogs are NOT the magic bullet . "

NOT ;

" You state..."His dogs are NOT the magic bullet . Are there PSD's that aren't good being around the family or visitors ? Yes . Some are still excellent PSD's others are not .Some of these dogs through looking at all of it's bahaviors still make good PSD's because their other traits and behaviors make up for this." "





Why are you changing what I originally wrote ?

It think it's a pathetic spin on what I originally stated because you have NO good response to what I originally stated and you are trying to steer this back into your selling BS for your dogs . 

Mike you are right Emilio at least " sounded '' interesting even if it was just his great imagination at work . But this guy is like a mosquito buzzing around . I try to ignore him but he keeps coming back commenting on things he obviously knows little about to try and sell his dogs . It's no mistake he's making these stupid comparisons to dogs that are in competition with his target market of people looking for a PPD . On top of that he then down plays the need of OB and makes stupid statements about how he knows his dogs will engage for real .


----------



## Gerry Grimwood

Jim Nash said:


> Mike you are right Emilio at least " sounded '' interesting even if it was just his great imagination at work . But this guy is like a mosquito buzzing around . I try to ignore him but he keeps coming back commenting on things he obviously knows little about to try and sell his dogs . It's no mistake he's making these stupid comparisons to dogs that are in competition with his target market of people looking for a PPD . On top of that he then down plays the need of OB and makes stupid statements about how he knows his dogs will engage for real .


All Lee's post end up locked anyway, there is no point looking for logic or reason where there is none.


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## Randy Allen

It's a well formulated human condition Gerry. 
We try to make sense or pattern out of any kind of chaos we encounter.


----------



## Guest

Why is everyone so worked up over this guy saying stable temperament trumps Obedience training with regards to a dog being a reliable and safe member of the family?

I must have missed something.


----------



## Lee Robinson

Gerry Grimwood said:


> All Lee's post end up locked anyway, there is no point looking for logic or reason where there is none.


Gerry, you might be right.

I have provided excellent reason and logic, yet I see a bunch of emotional replies. :-\"

Some people need to get their thinking caps out and start thinking for themselves it seems.

I have yet to see anyone provide any disagreement with what Vin Chiu so plainly pointed out about my post. Perhaps I should have just been more direct and used less words? 

Maggie, Randy, Jim, or Mike, instead of getting off subjecct, how about mentioning something that I have stated that you actually would disagree with? Can you do that? Seems not...as you haven't done that yet. If you disagree with me, state a logical reason as to why.Let's see a reason to your post. If you don't disagree with me, then what's the point to your posts.


----------



## Skip Morgart

Vin Chiu said:


> Why is everyone so worked up over this guy saying stable temperament trumps Obedience training with regards to a dog being a reliable and safe member of the family?
> 
> I must have missed something.


 
Stable temperament is important, but I also believe that someone's "idea" of stable temperament can actually be faked easier than actually demonstrating good OB (my opinion).


----------



## Jim Nash

Lee stated ;

" Maggie, Randy, Jim, or Mike, instead of getting off subjecct, how about mentioning something that I have stated that you actually would disagree with? Can you do that? Seems not...as you haven't done that yet. If you disagree with me, state a logical reason as to why.Let's see a reason to your post. If you don't disagree with me, then what's the point to your posts. " 


I think it was quiet clear what I disagreed with you about when I stated ; 

" Lee is comparing apples to oranges . He's using a PSD or Sport dog with confidence or control problems to a " Family Companion guardian" with good confidence . "

in my earlier response to you . I suggest you reread my responses to you . 

I am also tired of seeing you starting a discussion or getting involved in one as an excuse to advertise your dogs . I think I made that clear also .


----------



## Lee Robinson

Jim, 

In your previous post you state...and I quote...

_*"Are there PSD's that aren't good being around the family or visitors ? Yes . Some are still excellent PSD's*"_

Do those dogs that make "_excellent PSD's_" but that "_aren't good around family or visitors_"...do those dogs have "confidence issues?"

I am not referring to PSD cullls. I am referring to the temperament of some of the "best" patrol dogs and sport dogs...which IS SOMETHING YOU AGREED WITH IN THAT QUOTE.

I quoted you. NO WHERE in my posts can you find where I ever referred to "_PSDs or sport dogs with confidence_ _or control problems_."

Now, that being the case...if I quoted you and you ASSUME about me...then well, we have to ask...who was the one that didn't read the posts? Perhaps if you want to disagree with me, you might want to find something I actually STATED that you disagree with instead of just MAKING SOMETHING UP. Just an idea... ;^)


----------



## Randy Allen

So Lee,
You take exception to me saying that your op just sounded like a description of a natural herd guardian?


----------



## Mike Scheiber

Lee Robinson said:


> Gerry, you might be right.
> 
> I have provided excellent reason and logic, yet I see a bunch of emotional replies. :-\"
> 
> Some people need to get their thinking caps out and start thinking for themselves it seems.
> 
> I have yet to see anyone provide any disagreement with what Vin Chiu so plainly pointed out about my post. Perhaps I should have just been more direct and used less words?
> 
> Maggie, Randy, Jim, or Mike, instead of getting off subjecct, how about mentioning something that I have stated that you actually would disagree with? Can you do that? Seems not...as you haven't done that yet. If you disagree with me, state a logical reason as to why.Let's see a reason to your post. If you don't disagree with me, then what's the point to your posts.


I don't agree with any thing your spewing I think your right wing chicken shit fear monger talking shit and trying to sell these big old dogs. The trouble for you here is no one is buying any of your koolaid or your dogs. Shit as you mentioned and someone else pointed out even your neighbors went else ware to get a dog WTF dose that have to about your little operation and credibility.
Stay on DanE/Emilios kookie board so he doesn't have to keep quoting his own posts I'm sure he would appreciate someone to talk to beside himself he digs your kind of shit.
How about that little movie skit I was asking about before common mang got any ideas.


----------



## Jim Nash

Lee stated ;

"I quoted you. NO WHERE in my posts can you find where I ever referred to "PSDs or sport dogs with confidence or control problems."

Really ?! How about this quote of yours then ?


" How would your typical top performing mal react at a cook out with a guest over...and after the cook out you decide to have a cup of coffee...and the guy spills the coffee and jumps up in a reflex getting burned and hollers out an "AHHH." Most "great" sharp mals would be on him like a fly on ____. But...that is ok. As those dogs are BRED to be sharp "


Now you are going to argue that you didn't ACTUALLY state this dog has a confidence or control problem . BUT , I will argue you gave a fine example of one who does . That is also YOUR view of what a "top performing" Mal is , buy the way .


I will let others give there take on what Mals are BRED for . I've come across many different breeders who breed for many different traits in Mals , GSD's an many other breeds .


Lee stated ;

" I am not referring to PSD cullls. I am referring to the temperament of some of the "best" patrol dogs and sport dogs...which IS SOMETHING YOU AGREED WITH IN THAT QUOTE. "

Don't twist what I say and try to say I agreed with you . Your view of the " best " PSD's in the world and mine are very different . 

Vin Chiu stated ;

" Why is everyone so worked up over this guy saying stable temperament trumps Obedience training with regards to a dog being a reliable and safe member of the family? "


That's not quite all he was talking about otherwise his original post on the subject would have been MUCH shorter . Plus he has repeatly shown he doesn't know much about PSD's and I pointed them out in this discussion and others .


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: 
" How would your typical top performing mal react at a cook out with a guest over...and after the cook out you decide to have a cup of coffee...and the guy spills the coffee and jumps up in a reflex getting burned and hollers out an "AHHH." Most "great" sharp mals would be on him like a fly on ____. But...that is ok. As those dogs are BRED to be sharp "

OK, I will buy as many of these dogs as you can find. ALL of them. I love this shit. THis guy is an even bigger dillrod than Emillio.

You know **** all about anything. WHat did you do, buy yourself a degree ?? Do you have a rich Daddy ??

Stop running your mouth about shit you know nothing about.....wait, check that, then the soap opera would end. Sorry, carry on.


----------



## Jason Moore

OK I know I'm not an expert on ppd or sport dogs but I have started learning about sch. Going to a club a couple times. And have started basic OB with my AB's. Now in saying that. Lee you seem to sterio type psd's and sport dogs as being unstable. IMO that is one place where stability comes into place more that just your ppd. Other wise the dog would just wonder the trial field or for psd would at random just bite citizens. The difference is if one of these dogs so happen to loose there grip for a second. With proper ob the handler can straighten out the situation. With your dogs seemingly through your on words of not placing emphasis on ob. Would you feel comfortable knowing you had to do an off leash recall on a dog that is fully engaged. Now also you make it sound like if the dog is a swinford or what ever coming from your kennel. It will only bite strangers and never the hand that feeds it so to speek. Which is completely bs. I've been around enough dogs and raised enough dogs to know it is how the dog is raised for the most part. Socialization and proper handeling of the dog plays a much larger role into what the dog is going to be than what the breed is itself. Basically your dog is a bandog. And I'd be willing to lay money down that your type of dog has bitten more handlers/family members than I won't be classing a breed here as you don't seem to be so we will just say sport dog/psd's. Statistically speeking based on a percentage of how many of them there are compared to how many bandogs there are. 
Now as for saying the others haven't addressed any points you've made. I would say that is a mental block on your part. You seem to state they get off subject it seems to me they are pretty cut and dry straight to the point. IMO you seem to dance around there arguements. And when you can't seem to think of any thing to say then it's maybe I should have worded it different. Maybe not in this post particurly but yes you have said that. About OB imo that seems to be a misconception on your part of what a ppd should do. OB is first in all things dog related. With out that there islittle to no respect between you and the animal. And when there is possibly no respect then the dog may see you as his equal or possibly even lower on totum pole some where near the bottom which is where you might find your self one day on the bottom under one of your so stable dogs with low ob. 
Now before you go and say I didn't read your post's I've read every word. I think its pretty pathetic that you seem to think that working dogs weather it be psd sch knpv fr mr and many others I'm missing all fall into one unstable category when IMO these dogs are for the most parts the most stable of all dogs. And the do not harm bs that is with any dog in any situation not just ppd's and bandogs. 

Have a nice night.


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## Lee Robinson

Jim, It is a behavior problem that is often produced as a result of a conditioned response from dogs that are bred to be sharp. Some times it may be a confidence issue, but other times it is an overly sensitive prey drive response as a result of genetics and conditioning. Sharpness comes in many forms. 

Jason, what some other person mixed together and labelled a bandog has actually nothing to do with the Swinford program. Not one of our dogs have ever bitten a member of their family. Again, you're assuming...like many have done. Not one. Some people foolishly think blind aggression is what makes a PP dog, and that couldn't be further from the truth.

Mike, if you only knew about the emails I have receieved that stated how obviously true my posts are.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Moderators,

What are we going for here? The most write locked topics from one person in the shortest time or the longest running topic before it finally gets locked? I think it would be nice it Mr Robinson has a acheivable goal to aim for ;=0


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## Bob Scott

There seems to be more then one person with a goal here!


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## Courtney Guthrie

> I think its pretty pathetic that you seem to think that working dogs weather it be psd sch knpv fr mr and many others I'm missing all fall into one unstable category when IMO these dogs are for the most parts the most stable of all dogs. And the do not harm bs that is with any dog in any situation not just ppd's and bandogs.


Jason, I agree with this statement. I think that you could line up 100 working dogs of VARIOUS breeds and 100 shelter dogs and the working dogs will be more stable in their reactions than the shelter dogs. I do think that training OB is important FOR ANY dog doing BITEWORK. What is bitework without OB? Wouldn't that be your typical junk yard dog? In my area of the statres it would be. I do think that to do bitework, OB must precede and follow it. Jeff O- posted an awesome video of a call off that demonstrated great control over a dog who was obviously VERY into what he was doing. Lee- Can you post a video of the same thing? I'd be very interested to see it. An OFF LEASH call off. 



> " Why is everyone so worked up over this guy saying stable temperament trumps Obedience training with regards to a dog being a reliable and safe member of the family?


I do NOT think that was the gist of his original post. A dog does need to have a Stable tempermant to be a safe and reliable family member BUT IMHO a dog also needs OB to be a reliable and SAFE member of the family. If you do NO OB at all even with a stable minded dog, they are going to push buttons and see how far they can go with things. IMHO- You need a stable tempermant and OB for a dog to be a safe reliable family member.


----------



## Jason Moore

Lee Robinson said:


> Jim, It is a behavior problem that is often produced as a result of a conditioned response from dogs that are bred to be sharp. Some times it may be a confidence issue, but other times it is an overly sensitive prey drive response as a result of genetics and conditioning. Sharpness comes in many forms.
> 
> Jason, what some other person mixed together and labelled a bandog has actually nothing to do with the Swinford program. Not one of our dogs have ever bitten a member of their family. Again, you're assuming...like many have done. Not one. Some people foolishly think blind aggression is what makes a PP dog, and that couldn't be further from the truth.
> 
> Mike, if you only knew about the emails I have receieved that stated how obviously true my posts are.


So you think your the only person in all of the usa to have what has been stated as a part pit part english mastiff mix. Your the only person that breeds these dogs. You yourself used the term bandog to explain what they where in some of your first posts. So yeah basically it's a type of bandog. Basically what was once a mixed breed that has been bread and kept to the form of what people want it to be long enough to clasiffy it as it's on breed. According to science this has been done by all dogs. AB's which is my breed of choice is another example of this. 

But there is no way in hell that you can tell me just because the dog is of swinford decent if you will that it is going to becompletly stable and will never bite a member of its family under no circumstances. If this is your way of thinking your program is just a train wreck waiting to happen.

And one more thing. You state that psd's and sport dogs not all but alot are kept in there kennels to enhance drive and so on. So I ask you this. Do all of your dogs live in your house? I already know the answer to that. So what does that say for you. My dogs do not live in my house as is the case with alot of people but this does not make them not be our companion as to which we trust just as much as you do your dogs. My point in all of this is.
Why are you so quick to label sport/working dogs as unstable in temperment and such, all the while claiming none of your breed has or what you seem to be saying ever will bite the hand that feeds them. Which is again a point I made and was actually my main point of which you didn't even attempt to address. And who the fk ever said blind aggression is what makes a ppd dog. We have all preached OB should be the main focus for a ppd. You're the one that puts nothing but bite vid's with very minor ob that my 5 month old ab can do. Just because you teach your dog to heel in a sch way object gaurd as in fr retrieve a dumb bell over a wall. I agree all of this is useless in the ppd world as for what that dogs job is but the thing is you have that control over that dog to make him or her do what it is they are told. And they will listen to you when you need them most.


----------



## Jason Moore

Vin Chiu said:


> Why is everyone so worked up over this guy saying stable temperament trumps Obedience training with regards to a dog being a reliable and safe member of the family?
> 
> I must have missed something.


Vin if this was all he was implying I know on my behalf you wouldn't hear a word and I'm pretty sure not from the others either. For this is what we all start out with and look for in a pup. Temperment drive etc. and build from there. But IMO and what seems to be the case. He isn't just talking about temperment over ob. He is stereo typing the working/sporting group of peoples dogs and being unstable. Be it a gsd mal rot or what ever. What makes these dogs that do bite work so unstable. And his dogs that he emphasizes pretty much nothing but bite work so stable. If any thing doing so in an enviornment with little to no distraction is also a huge no no. All of his vids being in his back yard. Is my point here. In doing this I would think a dog could easily loose focus and there for your stabliity goes down in a real world real time situation. My point and others with proper OB you enhance your dogs stability. Other wise if you where to take his dogs and do sch knpv fr mr psd wouldn't that make his dog unstable all of the sudden. HMMMMM


----------



## susan tuck

I have waded through this nonsense twice now, trying to figure out what you think you are doing with this thread Lee, and I'm still confused. Do and say whatever the hell you want to pedal your dogs to the paranoid masses, but when you start spouting this crazy crap about sport and law enforcement K9's it becomes painfully evident you are talking out of your ass and your complete lack of knowledge about sport dogs and law enforcement K9s shines like a goddamn Las Vegas motel neon blinking vacancy sign. This is the wrong group to try to bullshit, take it to a pet board, please.


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## Julie Ann Alvarez

susan tuck said:


> but when you start spouting this crazy crap about sport and law enforcement K9's it becomes painfully evident you are talking out of your ass


Susan said ASS \\/... hehe


----------



## Jim Nash

Lee stated ;

" Jim, It is a BEHAVIOR PROBLEM that is often produced as a result of a conditioned response from dogs that are bred to be sharp. Some times it may be a confidence issue, but other times it is an OVERLY sensitive prey drive response as a result of genetics and conditioning. Sharpness comes in many forms. "


So you agree it's a behavior problem . Lack of confidence and control along with an OVERLY sensitive prey drive can be behavior problems also and it was that kind of PSD or Sport K9 that you were comparing to your stable "Family Companion Dog ". You certainly weren't comparing a stable PSD or Sport dog to your stable "Family Companion Dog " even though there a many stable PSD and Sport dogs out there . That would be counter productive to your sales pitch .Thanks for proving my point .

Thanxs four the edumakasion un sharpnes also . 

Just so you know overly sharp dogs like the one you described eating a houseguest for spilling it's coffee isn't a behavior or trait that most PSD trainers I know actively seek out in a PSD candidate . Because in general it can be a sign of a lack of confidence and because that type of behavior can cause problems in other aspects of PSD work also . There are exceptions to the rule but I'll repeat they are EXCEPTIONS and it's other behaviors in a dog like this that we look at that make it an exception .

Lee , I'm not argueing with you about it being important a dog has a stable temperment . That's what most PSD trainers I know look for in PSD's also . I take issue with your BS comparisons to PSD's based on your obviously limited knowledge of them and I have been very specific in pointing your BS out . You just refuse to see it like a dog going into avoidance . 

Look away and keep smelling the grass .


----------



## James Downey

Look, The truth of the matter is we all have beliefs on what a dog should be/can be...I actually know to extremely sharp malinois...whom are perfectly safe in public and have done very well on the field. 

I also know of a very dull rottweiler that bit my son in the ass when he was in my wifes arms at the tender age of 1 year. 

But the fact is we are working with, breeding and purchasing dogs in hopes that they are best of thier breed...many of these breeds are the premeire Military and LE dogs. To get this we have to bred on the side of extreme at times...and sometimes this crosses the line of stable. So, it my job to keep my family safe, and the public safe from my dogs. Not anyone elses...not a breeder, a training director or someone on a board whom wishes to try and control, or influence my choices on what I breed...or even have in my home. I control me, you control you. If you do not like a dog that it is not in perfect balance...then breed for one that is or buy it. But I do not think anyone is going to appreciate anyone else telling them they are wrong, or they have to do it different. 

I also am failing to see this huge population of sharp dogs. I have been in 2 clubs on both sides of the country...I have seen 3 dogs I would not allow my family around. 

I also think that my dog best be obedient to my every word. No matter how reactive, or how much they want to do something. If they do not listen to me....Then I really do not have obedience. I have compliance based upon contextual factors that suit the dog.


----------



## Lee Robinson

Courntey, please find where I said OB doesn't matter.

Jason, not all bandog programs have the same selection process. The only thing I would feed a dog that shows aggression within the family would be a bullet. This is something that seperates the Swinford from programs that simply think "aggression is aggression." We have no desire for fear biters, no desire for rank driven dogs, and no desire for unstable or overly sharp dogs. Instead, we select for loyalty and serving mentality with drive. A person breeds traits...and the breeds used are less important than the TRAITS the chosen foundation has. A dog can only pass on what is in its DNA...and by selecting the desired traits over time we obtain the desired DNA. Apparently you don't understand breeding.

James, instability comes in many forms. Some people love rotts. Me personally...I do not. I think the breed is too rank driven and dominant natured for a family environment. To get a great understanding of dogs, you need to become familiar with many different breeds and many different mentalities. The rott is one of the few mastiffs that has a "dominant" and a "defensive" nature both...not good for a family with kids IMO...although certainly many people have them.

Now...once again...let's get back with the topic. The subject was what makes a family companion guardian...and I stated the first rule is "do no harm." I believe ob and working ability are important, but IMO stability is the most important. Those that don't know how to "test" for stability simply don't know how to read a dog's expression of stability.


----------



## Guest

> We have no desire for fear biters, no desire for rank driven dogs, and no desire for unstable or overly sharp dogs.


Wow. Way to raise the bar on breeding.


----------



## Chris Michalek

Lee, what is your opinion on Filas?


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Jim, It is a behavior problem that is often produced as a result of a conditioned response from dogs that are bred to be sharp.

Twisted terminology here. "Sharp" means what ??? Where does conditioning have to come into all of this ?? Why is the dog biting people unexpectedly at a coffee shop, and why are people popping up and waving their arms around.

I have yet to see this behavior in a dog, or while I was hanging out at a coffee shop.

Nice try at an analogy. Just admit you are a goof training off in the woods with really bad definitions of current terminology. This is what has always pissed me off about people that own (bull/ban/pit/mastiff/corso ) type dogs. The majority of you just become complete and utter ****ing idiots when it comes to those types of dogs.

I have known many people that own these types of dogs in the past, and holy shit what a bunch of Walt Disney drivel comes flying out of their mouths all the while the eyes are rolling about in their head in fanatic extasy as the extoll all the virtues of their "precious"

Bunch of ****ing Gollums. Hey Smeigel, take it easy.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

"Jason, not all bandog programs have the same selection process. The only thing I would feed a dog that shows aggression within the family would be a bullet. This is something that seperates the Swinford from programs that simply think "aggression is aggression." We have no desire for fear biters, no desire for rank driven dogs, and no desire for unstable or overly sharp dogs. Instead, we select for loyalty and serving mentality with drive. A person breeds traits...and the breeds used are less important than the TRAITS the chosen foundation has. A dog can only pass on what is in its DNA...and by selecting the desired traits over time we obtain the desired DNA. Apparently you don't understand breeding."

I'm not Jason and I'm on Lee's Avoidance list LOL, but....what a load of self serving drivel. " a bullet to the head"? Maybe Lee is trying to sound like the old Pit men? The truth is, the only dogs that have been killed in his yard are the ones that got into a fight because of his poor kennel
management. 
He's never culled a puppy for any reason and never had a dog he wouldn't sell. His breeding criteria is based on who's in heat
and males are in the yard. :-(


Thomas Barriano


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Jim, It is a behavior problem that is often produced as a result of a conditioned response from dogs that are bred to be sharp.
> 
> Twisted terminology here. "Sharp" means what ??? Where does conditioning have to come into all of this ?? Why is the dog biting people unexpectedly at a coffee shop, and why are people popping up and waving their arms around.
> 
> I have yet to see this behavior in a dog, or while I was hanging out at a coffee shop.
> 
> Nice try at an analogy. Just admit you are a goof training off in the woods with really bad definitions of current terminology. This is what has always pissed me off about people that own (bull/ban/pit/mastiff/corso ) type dogs. The majority of you just become complete and utter ****ing idiots when it comes to those types of dogs.
> 
> I have known many people that own these types of dogs in the past, and holy shit what a bunch of Walt Disney drivel comes flying out of their mouths all the while the eyes are rolling about in their head in fanatic extasy as the extoll all the virtues of their "precious"
> 
> Bunch of ****ing Gollums. Hey Smeigel, take it easy.


Good Morning Jeff,

Why couldn't you get your ass out of bed this early when we were all waiting down in Larkspur? 

Anyway

"you are a goof training off in the woods with really bad definitions of current terminology."

That's totally disrespectfull, don't you realize that Harold Lee
Robinson has TWO degrees in Animal Science (the BS degree actually say Agriculture, but let's not quibble) from a prestigious University? I think you should apologize immediately............... LMAO


----------



## Jason Moore

Lee Robinson said:


> Jason, not all bandog programs have the same selection process. The only thing I would feed a dog that shows aggression within the family would be a bullet. This is something that seperates the Swinford from programs that simply think "aggression is aggression." We have no desire for fear biters, no desire for rank driven dogs, and no desire for unstable or overly sharp dogs. Instead, we select for loyalty and serving mentality with drive. A person breeds traits...and the breeds used are less important than the TRAITS the chosen foundation has. A dog can only pass on what is in its DNA...and by selecting the desired traits over time we obtain the desired DNA. Apparently you don't understand breeding.


I'll let the others respond to what you said about them and keep this part between us. I fully understand breeding. For me and my dad have been breeding for our on use only hunting dogs for years. When you have one dog that has strong traits and another that might lack some of those traits but has other traits you like and would like to combine the two then you breed the two and choose the pups that seem to show the traits that you have bred for. Is that good enough for you. 
Now I'm into a different type of dog and situation all together with AB's I like the breed and love working with dogs so I've decided to work them in sch. Which is what brought me to this message board and got me started reading your garbage. And here is a question for you. What makes you so sure your dogs are so stable? Not from exp. but base on reading and common sense when you work a dog through ob and make sure he obeys every command or else until you've done that how do you know how stable your dogs really are. 
My point being and Jeff I know you can q in here with thresh holds its not how high or low a dogs thresholds are it's what a dog does after he reaches that threshold is a large part what makes a dog stable or not. How will you ever know how stable that dog really is unless you've pushed him in every aspect of work. 
Oh and the fact that you still didn't answer back about the main thing I posted earlier.


----------



## Courtney Guthrie

> This is what has always pissed me off about people that own (bull/ban/pit/mastiff/corso ) type dogs. The majority of you just become complete and utter ****ing idiots when it comes to those types of dogs.


I love APBTs but it is people like Lee who are ruining them for everyone. Not all owners are like this but you know as much as I hate to say it, Jeff is right to a point, I think there are FAR more idiots that own those breeds than there are responsible knowledgable people. . 

Lee- Why would I go back through your idiotic posts when they ALL have the same underlying tone that OB is NOT important. You have been asked NUMEROUS time to produce a video of OB being done with your dogs. MORE than a little heelwork around the yard. Since your dogs are that good, it shouldn't be a problem to produce how good they really are!!!! 

Courtney


----------



## David Ruby

Lee Robinson said:


> Some people love rotts. Me personally...I do not. I think the breed is too rank driven and dominant natured for a family environment. To get a great understanding of dogs, you need to become familiar with many different breeds and many different mentalities. The rott is one of the few mastiffs that has a "dominant" and a "defensive" nature both...not good for a family with kids IMO...although certainly many people have them.


I have had a couple of trainers tell me (and forgive me, but I am paraphrasing), that rank/dominant dogs are, in some ways easy in that they are fair. This is the Cliff Notes edition, however provided that you lay down the rules and provide fair, consistent reward and consequences for the dog's actions and they understand their role, they can be integrated just fine into a family-structure. There are going to be dogs that are too hot/dominant for some people/situations, not everybody wants, needs, or should have the hottest, most dominant dog on the planet, that's not what I am talking about.

However, there ARE stable Rottweilers (just one example) that work great in families that are well-trained, know their place, but seem to be very serious in a protection/bitework sense. I have just seen enough good Rottweilers, and had them recommended as a possibility by enough people whom I have some respect for, to not see the right individual Rottweiler (or just about any working breed for that matter) as a fine fit for a family environment with the proper training and precautions you would take with any other dog.



Jeff Oehlsen said:


> This is what has always pissed me off about people that own (bull/ban/pit/mastiff/corso ) type dogs. The majority of you just become complete and utter ****ing idiots when it comes to those types of dogs.
> 
> I have known many people that own these types of dogs in the past, and holy shit what a bunch of Walt Disney drivel comes flying out of their mouths all the while the eyes are rolling about in their head in fanatic extasy as the extoll all the virtues of their "precious"
> 
> Bunch of ****ing Gollums. Hey Smeigel, take it easy.


Hey Jeff, some of us just like the personalities (totally speaking for myself here). I see what you are saying, and on the Internet you see a lot of lofty claims on the Molosser breeds, but there are some who just like Bulldogs (or Bandogs or Mastiffs) and work them without turning them into something you find in the woods of Hogwarts. Granted hey are probably the clear minority (both the dogs and their handlers), but there are some out there. I really like Bulldogs, however they are still dogs, not magical D&D monsters. I can appreciate a nice, solid Bulldog for what it is; I can also appreciate what the Malinois and Dutch Shepherds do (among other herders and traditional working types, I just fine the speed, agility, and overall athleticism of the Malinois pretty @#$%in' impressive).

Just pointing out not everybody who likes Molossers turns them into fire-breathing mythical creatures of legend that come straight from the pages of the Scripture or something.

-Cheers


----------



## Ian Forbes

Lee Robinson said:


> Someone on another topic asked me what makes a "family companion guardian"...discussion of drives and bite work came into play...then eventually conversation of OB and such came into play...but what was missed is the first rule of a family companion protection dog. Now...who makes this rule? Well, relax...I don't make the rule. It is logic and reason that makes the rule.
> 
> There is nothing on this earth more important to me than my children. If you don't have kids, you don't understand this. If you do...then you should understand this.
> 
> What is this rule that was overlooked? Well, the first rule of a FAMILY COMPANION guardian is to *do no harm.* This is of utmost importance in a family dog.


Surely that is the rule for any dog?




> More so in family dog than any other type...as they are often with people 24/7. They do not live to work. They are not kept in crates or kennels except when needed. They live with people that are not K9 professional handlers. So, the dog must have a mindset that produces a state of mind that leads to "doing no harm" with those it loves and lives with.


I don't know. I've seen dogs of all sorts of temperaments/sizes/drives etc. and all are expected to do no harm.




> Of all the professional K9 handlers I have met, the majority of them that "live with" their service dogs don't have kids


Strange. My experience is the opposite.




> ...but most of these handlers (children or not) don't actually live with them. Some do, but they are more of the exception than the rule.


Not in my experience.




> Many sport trainers also keep their dogs kenneled to help keep the dog's drives and motivation up...and to add to their dog's sharpness when they work their dogs.


Many don't. The vast majority that I know have there dogs out and free in the home.




> They don't want their dogs to "relax." Many of these K9 handlers actually have another dog for a pet.





> Now, in previous posts...some people talked about the importance of OB...and although OB is important, if we are honest we should admit OB is more for society than it is the family. No doubt OB makes living with a family easier too, and I wouldn't say otherwise. But we are not talking about being "easy" to live with. We are talking about being SAFE to live with. In the home, it is TEMPERAMENT and STABILITY that makes a dog safe. OB can help and can "adjust" and "control" temperament...sure...but it isn't the same thing as a dog that naturally knows its place and that naturally has a clear mind...not 24/7.


I agree to a point. No amount of Obedience training or management will fix a dog with bad nerves.




> A FAMILY COMPANION GUARDIAN cannot be a rank driven dog. Why? Because in life, companions live with the family. They are not kept in crates, kept in kennels, or in an air conditioned patrol car except when worked. And, in real life...people do not have 24/7 ob. Temperament trumps ob. Ob is important for control, but it is temperament that brings safe predictability in the house.


I disagree. I have known many socially dominant dogs, defensive dogs, high prey dogs etc. etc. that are fine as family companions, because they have solid nerves, decent stimulus thresholds and are clear in the head. Combine that with good socialisation, consistent handling and good obedience and I think you are doing pretty well.




> A family companion guardian must be stable...not overly sharp or overly nervy. Now...some patrol dogs, service dogs, and sport dogs may not be too sharp or overly nervy...but anyone that denies that many of them "act so fast they hardly have time to think" isn't admitting that the dogs learn to respond to movement as a reflex action. How would your typical top performing mal react at a cook out with a guest over...and after the cook out you decide to have a cup of coffee...and the guy spills the coffee and jumps up in a reflex getting burned and hollers out an "AHHH." Most "great" sharp mals would be on him like a fly on ____. But...that is ok. As those dogs are BRED to be sharp. However, a FAMILY shouldn't really be around a dog like this IMO all the time. People are free to disagree with my opinions. That is fine...but the truth is TEMPERAMENT and STABILITY is extremely important in a family guardian.


I think you are wrong. Many of these dogs are far more relaxed in the home and/or away from the trial field.

Because a dog bites on command, it does not make them more likely to bite people in other situations. Likewise a dog trained to get over a 6-foot sclae will not just start jumping the fence at home.




> A patrol dog or sport dog gets this in OB...but in a home...where we relax and have a beer while the kids are playing with the pups...OB isn't enough. The dog has to have a degree of being aware of its place and role and loyalty to the family to "FIRST DO NO HARM."





> Anyway, this is why I like a submissive dog to a family, but driven with those it doesn't know.


Each to their own, but I don't think you need to have this type of dog for it to be safe arouund a a family.

*



1st, do no harm.

Click to expand...

*


> What good is a "family K9 protector" that you can't trust with your kids? After this rule is understood, then the dog is welcome to do what is necessary to STOP others from harming those we love.
> 
> Now, if you don’t' have kids, there is no need to come back with a reply and say..."my dog lives with me." And, if you crate your dog, kennel, or patrol car with the air conditioner on for your dog to "keep an edge" for work...then don’t come back and say "my dog lives with me."...because if either of these are the case, then you miss the point.


I don't think anyone will disagree that a dog must do no harm in a family environment. Where I disagree is in your assessment that this means that you must have a certian type of dog or that patrol/sport dogs do not do this.


----------



## Ian Forbes

Vin Chiu said:


> Why is everyone so worked up over this guy saying stable temperament trumps Obedience training with regards to a dog being a reliable and safe member of the family?
> 
> I must have missed something.


If that was all he was writing, I doubt many people would disagree. However, his posts say a lot more than that....


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: 
Why couldn't you get your ass out of bed this early when we were all waiting down in Larkspur? 

****er !!!!! LOL

I get off work at 7, so I am up. I worked 2 jobs, and got off at 4, unfortunately the Marines taught me a bad habit, in that I can sleep anywhere, anytime, so I would usually fall dead asleep in the chair at the office like a dumb ass. : )

It was never personal, and I would have loved to train dogs at night.........wait, I did train dogs at night. LOL


----------



## Ian Forbes

This thread reminds me of a very funny thread on the K9Protection forum from a few years ago. A lady was peddling 'Canis Panther' PP dogs with the line (or 1st rule!) of.......
.
wait for it.....
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
'The best bite is no bite'.

:-\"


----------



## Jason Moore

Ian Forbes said:


> This thread reminds me of a very funny thread on the K9Protection forum from a few years ago. A lady was peddling 'Canis Panther' PP dogs with the line (or 1st rule!) of.......
> .
> wait for it.....
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> 'The best bite is no bite'.
> 
> :-\"


You could take that different ways Ian. IMO it could mean just the dog simply being there and barking is enough. But to use this statement as a selling point is stupid as it goes along with any dog. I dunno just a thought.


----------



## Guest

Jason Moore said:


> Vin if this was all he was implying I know on my behalf you wouldn't hear a word and I'm pretty sure not from the others either. For this is what we all start out with and look for in a pup. Temperment drive etc. and build from there. But IMO and what seems to be the case. He isn't just talking about temperment over ob. He is stereo typing the working/sporting group of peoples dogs and being unstable. Be it a gsd mal rot or what ever. What makes these dogs that do bite work so unstable. And his dogs that he emphasizes pretty much nothing but bite work so stable. If any thing doing so in an enviornment with little to no distraction is also a huge no no. All of his vids being in his back yard. Is my point here. In doing this I would think a dog could easily loose focus and there for your stabliity goes down in a real world real time situation. My point and others with proper OB you enhance your dogs stability. Other wise if you where to take his dogs and do sch knpv fr mr psd wouldn't that make his dog unstable all of the sudden. HMMMMM


Hi Jason, if that is your interpretation of this thread then I understand where you are coming from and I see why there is so much spit flying. However, I still don't think it is the intention of the OP to snap on sport dogs or K9s. Perhaps he has made some mistakes regarding owners of k9 and sport dogs, but the underlying premise for his post remains essentially unchanged. I can see why people might take some of the things he said in his original post personally but this is what the ignore function is for, no? If there is anything to scream about its that perhaps he's wasting bandwidth by posted something that is simple common sense.


----------



## Ian Forbes

Jason Moore said:


> You could take that different ways Ian. IMO it could mean just the dog simply being there and barking is enough. But to use this statement as a selling point is stupid as it goes along with any dog. I dunno just a thought.


Jason,

Trust me, the only person buying anything that woman said was herself. In fact, I'm not even sure she understood what it was all about.

Eventually she could not take the relentless pisstake and left the board..:wink:


----------



## James Downey

Lee Robinson said:


> Courntey, please find where I said OB doesn't matter.
> 
> Jason, not all bandog programs have the same selection process. The only thing I would feed a dog that shows aggression within the family would be a bullet. This is something that seperates the Swinford from programs that simply think "aggression is aggression." We have no desire for fear biters, no desire for rank driven dogs, and no desire for unstable or overly sharp dogs. Instead, we select for loyalty and serving mentality with drive. A person breeds traits...and the breeds used are less important than the TRAITS the chosen foundation has. A dog can only pass on what is in its DNA...and by selecting the desired traits over time we obtain the desired DNA. Apparently you don't understand breeding.
> 
> James, instability comes in many forms. Some people love rotts. Me personally...I do not. I think the breed is too rank driven and dominant natured for a family environment. To get a great understanding of dogs, you need to become familiar with many different breeds and many different mentalities. The rott is one of the few mastiffs that has a "dominant" and a "defensive" nature both...not good for a family with kids IMO...although certainly many people have them.
> 
> Now...once again...let's get back with the topic. The subject was what makes a family companion guardian...and I stated the first rule is "do no harm." I believe ob and working ability are important, but IMO stability is the most important. Those that don't know how to "test" for stability simply don't know how to read a dog's expression of stability.


 
Okay first Lee...In my house. There are rules, First is the dog has to be good with my kids...And the second is the kids best leave the dogs the **** alone. And if they screw the dog and get tagged by the dog for doing it. The only love thier getting from daddy is another scolding on not ****ing with the dog. 

And thanks for the tip on getting a great understanding of dogs?---(Is this guy for real??)

And getting back on topic...Thanks for filling us in on whats wrong with the folks who cannot read dogs and test for stability.... Seems a bit obvious .But frankly I really do not care what other people can do. Why should that be any of my buisness?


----------



## Jason Moore

Vin Chiu said:


> Hi Jason, if that is your interpretation of this thread then I understand where you are coming from and I see why there is so much spit flying. However, I still don't think it is the intention of the OP to snap on sport dogs or K9s. Perhaps he has made some mistakes regarding owners of k9 and sport dogs, but the underlying premise for his post remains essentially unchanged. I can see why people might take some of the things he said in his original post personally but this is what the ignore function is for, no? If there is anything to scream about its that perhaps he's wasting bandwidth by posted something that is simple common sense.


If it wasn't for his past topics that seem to say the same thing over and over as did this one then I could understand what you where saying.I've read the first post a couple times and I can only get one thing out of it. But that is my opinion. But if this isn't what he is saying then why does he not defend it. The only thing he defends is his dogs decendents and seems to think because of the type of dog they are that they all have good temperment. He stated none of his dogs would bite his any of his family. You and I both know from one litter of as little as 4 or 5 puppies how much there temperments can vary. I am not arguing the poin that a good temperment in a ppd or any dog for that matter isn't as important as OB but when one starts to put the pressure of srict ob then IMO and correct me if I am wrong I am deff open for criticism. But with strict ob is where you find out in some dogs if there temperment so to speek is what one thought it was. IMO a dog can be one correction away from loosing it. Just from a sit stay. I'm not saying his dogs perhaps but any dog. And I think that is the point that so many where trying to get across. And maybe he meant some psd's/ sport dogs but he generalized and left the subject open for interpritation. And when that struck a nerve with some myself included obviously he hasn't said any thing to defend his take on that subject. Which leads me to believ he see's through a box about 6in wide with his tunnel vision/narrow minded/ opinion on sport/working dogs.


----------



## Jason Moore

Ian Forbes said:


> Jason,
> 
> Trust me, the only person buying anything that woman said was herself. In fact, I'm not even sure she understood what it was all about.
> 
> Eventually she could not take the relentless pisstake and left the board..:wink:


Understood. LOL I think we may have a similar situation.As you stated.


----------



## Howard Gaines III

OMG! I have been through this thing twice now and it is too off the wall. Back to the basic post for me...*What IS the first rule of a family companion and how does or should it differ from a PPD or PSD? *
Do no harm isn't working for my mind. I want a dog that is willing to take training and rebound from both handler and decoy mistakes. I want one that is willing to please ME! If it can't do that..it's time to go.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

*The Best Bite*



Jason Moore said:


> You could take that different ways Ian. IMO it could mean just the dog simply being there and barking is enough. But to use this statement as a selling point is stupid as it goes along with any dog. I dunno just a thought.


Hi Jason,

This was Lori Berg with Rock of Ages (can we get an AMEN) kennel.
I'm not sure if she was Gypsy or her boyfriend, they both posted from the same account and you never knew who was who.

Anyway their other motto was "all defense all the time" and they advocated muzzle work only and having your dogs wear a muzzle in public. I think these were the guys that had a ritualistic
sleeve turning ceremony a couple of years ago. A big barn fire with suits, sleeves tugs etc. feeding the flames What a pair


----------



## David Frost

*Re: The Best Bite*



Thomas Barriano said:


> Anyway their other motto was "all defense all the time" and they advocated muzzle work only and having your dogs wear a muzzle in public. I think these were the guys that had a ritualistic
> sleeve turning ceremony a couple of years ago. A big barn fire with suits, sleeves tugs etc. feeding the flames What a pair


The nuts I've met or heard of in this business never cease to amaze me. But that's funny right there.

DFrost


----------



## Butch Cappel

Thank You James Downey: _In my house. There are rules, First is the dog has to be good with my kids...And the second is the kids best leave the dogs the **** alone. And if they screw the dog and get tagged by the dog for doing it. The only love their getting from daddy is another scolding on not ****ing with the dog._

Sounds like an old time Dog-man


----------



## maggie fraser

I think I must be missing something in all of this or maybe I'm just confused.... could be an age thing.

Are weee talking specially selected puppy, or are weee talking trained adult dog here?

I think this turns this whole thread on it's head.... Lee was talking about a puppy, weren't you Lee? Is that why you recommend your buyers purchase an Ivan Balabanov dvd to learn about 'basic obedience', 'cos your dogs don't come trained?

Do you sell trained protection dogs Lee, or is it puppies? That could account for untested dogs here, the main priority to be BRED (your definition), to possess a stable temperament that will DO NO HARM 'cos you have applied logic and reason!


----------



## Lee Robinson

Maggie, it isn't about what I do or don't sell. If you think it is, you missed the point. It is about what makes a dog suitable as a CANDIDATE as a "Family Companion Guadian."

Howard, I don't disagree with the traits you are looking for, but for me those things come AFTER stability and temperament.



James Downey said:


> Okay first Lee...In my house. There are rules, First is the dog has to be good with my kids...And the second is the kids best leave the dogs the **** alone. And if they screw the dog and get tagged by the dog for doing it. The only love thier getting from daddy is another scolding on not ****ing with the dog.
> 
> And thanks for the tip on getting a great understanding of dogs?---(Is this guy for real??)
> 
> And getting back on topic...Thanks for filling us in on whats wrong with the folks who cannot read dogs and test for stability.... Seems a bit obvious .But frankly I really do not care what other people can do. Why should that be any of my buisness?


Kids shouldn't f~ck with a dog, but they should be able to play with their K9 companion and the dog should be stable enough and have a temperament suitable for such before being considered worth of being a family companion guardian. If you won't let your kids play with him...well, then he isn't a companion now is he?


----------



## maggie fraser

_Maggie, it isn't about what I do or don't sell. If you think it is, you missed the point. It is about what makes a dog suitable as a CANDIDATE as a "Family Companion Guadian."_

Candidate... as in applicant,...cadet....puppy even?

I haven't missed any point lee, it's all about what you SELL! How about answering a direct question with a direct answer and give us all a treat, just this once.

Do you sell trained protection dogs? Multi choice answer here; Y = Yes N = No

Then we may all have a better idea what it is we're arguing about - that would help wouldn't it, if we all knew what we were arguing about and not just you?


----------



## Lee Robinson

Maggie,

People who know what they are talking about can discuss something based upon merit. They don't need to get into personal off topic stuff...but yet, like Thomas, that is what you do. You assume too much. Like Thomas, you can't stay on topic because apparently you don't know enough about the subject...so instead you and Thomas constantly gets off on emotional personal assumption based rants...which is why he is now on my ignore list (as he has nothing worth reading).

That said, i'm not going to answer your question...maybe I do and maybe I don't...but the reason I am not going to answer your irrelivent question is because it is a divert tactic to avoid the topic...and because I have entertained enough "off-topic nonsense." Why do you find it so hard to discuss the topic of temperament and stability of a family companion guardian? Are you so insecure that you are threatened by the topic? 

If you think this is all about me you are mistaken. People don't have that much concern about what I do. I am just one person. It wouldn't matter if I sold zero dogs a year or if I sold a 100 dogs a year. Neither would make a difference in a global market. The "conflict" is not about me, but about an idea...an idea that some view as threatening as a LOT of people make a living selling "guard dogs," "sport dogs," "patrol dogs," and "PP" dogs. News flash...I make my living as an educator

You know...your kind of funny. You make demands of me, as you see me as opinionated...so you want me to "put up."...however, it seems as if you are unwilling to actually offer any of your own videos or any of your own ideas. It just so happens, that I believe those who speak up and demand something from others should post video some times...which is why I do. Doing so illustrates a point. However, I don't see you doing that. I see you running your mouth and posting videos that belong to other people. Let's see your work. I have already seen Thomas's...which is why he is on my ignore list. He doesn't know dog training. Here are two of his videos which illustrate the type of work he does...

Here is one of his pp dogs doing some SchH work. Thomas doesn't see what's wrong with this video. PP dogs can't back up from just a step on the tip-toe...or a soft hit from a padded stick.

http://www.chimerakennels.com/Thomasdobie.wmv

Here is another one of his pp dogs, and again, thomas doesn't see what's wrong with this video. A sleeve fixated dog is of no good for pp work, and if you want the dog to target the man you don't do aggitation work on a bungee. Bungees should only be used when a decoy has a sleeve on. If the dog is on a bungee and shows that it has a sleeve fixation, the handler should go in and put a solid lline on the dog so the decoy can properly work the dog by getting in close without risk of being bit. This video shows a guy trying to get the dog to come off the sleeve to target the man, but the man can't get in close enough to work the dog properly since it is on a bungee...and the dog's training suffers from the result of a ignorant handler...who is just sitting there watching the problem instead of solving the problem

http://www.chimerakennels.com/ThomasBungeesleevefixated.wmv

My point is...if you want to debate, do so intelligently...and if you don't have the intelligence or understanding to do that, then ask questions about the subject...and use common sense along with intellect.

One other thing, apparently there is a rather "silient majority" here that actually agrees with me. I have received a number of supportive emails from various members on this forum, some of who I know are well respected by even some of the "attackers" here as this silient supportive majority includes some that have videos here that even a few of the "attackers" here have boasted about. So...let's get back to the topic shall we? And, since you want me to post more videos, and I have already have some up, how about you doing the same. I would like to see your "stable" PP dog around kids and also doing bitework. *After all, that is what the subject is about...a family companion guardian that does no harm.*


----------



## Thomas Barriano

maggie fraser said:


> _
> 
> Do you sell trained protection dogs? Multi choice answer here; Y = Yes N = No
> 
> HI Maggie,
> 
> It ain't that simple. He sells PP dogs BUT they sure aren't "trained" by any stretch of the imagination.
> 
> Then we may all have a better idea what it is we're arguing about - that would help wouldn't it, if we all knew what we were arguing about and not just you?_


_

How is he going to win the argument if everyone else knows what the subject is LOL_


----------



## Guest

I love it.

Lee comes here with a business agenda, and then he get's evasive when someone asks a simple direct question of him and his business. All of a sudden it's NOT all about him. 

Hilarious.

_MEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEME_

*Simple question.*

_Whoa, whoa, whoa...this was never about ME. Now I'll just digress._


----------



## Kyle Sprag

Lee, just stop your BS, Thomas never claimed that was a "PP" dog.


----------



## Lee Robinson

Steven,

Obviously I sell a few dogs. Everyone here can see my website, so the question is not only off topic, it is also foolish and irrelivent. The impact of one breeding program won't change what goes in people's homes. But, the IDEA of the truth could make an impact. It is the idea that is threatening to some, not me. If it was only about me, people would just "scroll on by" the message.

KS, 

It obviously isn't great trainiing for SchH either (or PP), but he wouldn't know that.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

*Why is this POS still on the list?*



Kyle Sprag said:


> Lee, just stop your BS, Thomas never claimed that was a "PP" dog.


How much more BS are the moderators going to put up with?
Lee puts me on his avoidance list and re posts altered slow motion 5 second clips of a 300 second video of my dogs. He calls them
my PP dogs, which is a total lie. He posts his BS opinion of bungee work, when more experienced trainers and helpers are the ones in the video doing the work. Maggie (or anyone else) don't even think about posting a video for LEEtle Man to edit, distort, alter and miss
understand. I am a sport dog trainer with multiple titles on several dogs. All Lee is here to do is, promote/sell his puppies and try to con us into thinking he knows anything.


----------



## Kyle Sprag

"KS, 

It obviously isn't great trainiing for SchH either (or PP), but he wouldn't know that."

LOL, OK,

What is NOT "SchH" about it?

Looks like standard training to me and with a certified Sch helper to boot.


Need I remind you AGAIN that Thomas has titled multiple HOT dogs to high levels of Schutzhund, Bred dogs that have titled HOT to High levels of Schutzhund, as well as other working dog venues.

Like it or Not Lee, Thomas has PROVEN that he knows what he is doing and what he is looking at!



And you have done What? :-\":roll::-\":roll:


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Lee Robinson said:


> KS,
> 
> It obviously isn't great trainiing for SchH either (or PP), but he wouldn't know that.



Apparently more than a few impartial judges in various sports think otherwise

Dubheasa Germania (11/05/99-08/11/08) SchH III M R Brevet AKC WD III AWD 1 STP 1 CD WAC TT
Ascomannis Jago (06/20/03) SchH III AKC WD III AWD I TT WAC
Belatucadrus (08/14/05) Dutch Boy BH TT
Flannchadh von der Bavarianburg (5/21/08) CGC

We're still waiting for you to stop altering and distorting other people videos and getting off the Internet and putting your 
FIRST title on any of your dogs.

Still waiting for you to do any kind of temperament testing on any of your dogs

Still waiting for ANYONE to put any kind of title on any dog
you've ever bred?


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## Jason Moore

Oh I get it. I'm so sorry Lee. I see now it's all about asking only questions you want to answer. Well would you give us a list of questions we can ask and while your at it go ahead and give us the answers so we will know what your talking about. 

Now before you ask me to show a video I will go ahead and tell you I am working with my first 5 month old puppy. As of now she wouldn't hurt any one. 

The problem I have is you say the topic is about this and only that yet the original post covers a several topics not just the do no harm. If you state several things in your posts to get down to one point which is what you did. Then you should be prepared to answer the questions that pertain to all of the statements made in that post not just the final point your trying to get across. We all understand what your saying we understand what your point is. But why can't you basically explain what gave you this idea. Every one else has explained why they where asking there question and what has brought them to the conclusion of the point they are trying to get across/why they asked the question they asked.

Basically for the only question you want to answer your original post should have read.
A ppd should do no harm to its family while protecting it at all cost. END OF STATEMENT That way we wouldn't have asked what we asked. And I'm gona go ahead and say it. Jesus Christ I feel sorry for your students.


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## Kyle Sprag

Jason Moore said:


> Oh I get it. I'm so sorry Lee. I see now it's all about asking only questions you want to answer. Well would you give us a list of questions we can ask and while your at it go ahead and give us the answers so we will know what your talking about.
> 
> Now before you ask me to show a video I will go ahead and tell you I am working with my first 5 month old puppy. As of now she wouldn't hurt any one.
> 
> The problem I have is you say the topic is about this and only that yet the original post covers a several topics not just the do no harm. If you state several things in your posts to get down to one point which is what you did. Then you should be prepared to answer the questions that pertain to all of the statements made in that post not just the final point your trying to get across. We all understand what your saying we understand what your point is. But why can't you basically explain what gave you this idea. Every one else has explained why they where asking there question and what has brought them to the conclusion of the point they are trying to get across/why they asked the question they asked.
> 
> Basically for the only question you want to answer your original post should have read.
> A ppd should do no harm to its family while protecting it at all cost. END OF STATEMENT That way we wouldn't have asked what we asked. And I'm gona go ahead and say it. Jesus Christ I feel sorry for
> your students.


 
=D>=D>=D>=D>=D>:mrgreen:=D>=D>=D>=D>


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## Connie Sutherland

_"And you have done What?" ... _


Well, he has found a different "silent majority" from the one that's sending emails and PMs to the mods. :lol:


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