# Good Mother?



## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Please post your definition of a "Good Mother"


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Kyle Sprag said:


> Please post your definition of a "Good Mother"


One who gives up the Platinum M/C readily????:lol::lol::lol::lol:


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

Kyle Sprag said:


> Please post your definition of a "Good Mother"


Had a bitch from KNPV lines that went out and caught a rabbit during a break in whelping...not sure if that made her good or neglectfull.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

One that weans her children before they're twenty-something or worse.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Daryl Ehret said:


> One that weans her children before they're twenty-something or worse.


I am NOT the "or worse" part...I'm not, I'm not, I'm not!!!!\\/
(but I was pretty spoiled...LOL)

Seriously though, I think a good bitch is one that is calm and attentive to her pups, keeps them clean and teaches them lessons....I would say that catching and offering prey rates up there with a good bitch. 

I also think a bitch that stays calm when the handler is present with the new litter is ideal, I have been told that Esta may be a little protective for the first few days to a week.....which is why I am spending as much time as I can with her in the whelping shed as well and feeding her by hand and cleaning while she is in the area with me. And closer to whelping, I am all set to sleep in the shed with her as well. (cot, sleeping bag, lamp, a good book as well as whelping supplies. 

While Bernhard was here, he talked about how when he keeps pups back and starts to see the bitch "correcting" the youngsters for being unruly, that is when he starts as well....nothing harsh, just manners.......


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

One that doesn’t eat its young


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Kyle Sprag said:


> Please post your definition of a "Good Mother"


Female that would dig her own den if allowed to and nest, she can have a normal size litter 6+ in Malinios or Beaucerons naturally and on her own, cleans and cares for the pups after having them on her own. Good instinct to keep them warm the first days-weeks of life, mothers them; if available she will bring food back to them "regurgitate" for her young, plays with them a bit, disciplines fairly (is not a push over). Would protect them from preditors and very happy confident with her family around them.


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## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

What Debbie said - though the den thng can be a PITA when you are trying to crawl into some hidey-hole where she has moved her puppies...
(just finished doing this!)


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Lynn Cheffins said:


> What Debbie said - though the den thng can be a PITA when you are trying to crawl into some hidey-hole where she has moved her puppies...
> (just finished doing this!)



:-D Good reason to breed big bitches so the den entry is large! I feel for you.. Also, frustrating when they try to undermine the foundation of the equipment shed or club house!


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

i like debbie's outline. a bitch/mare/cow/doe has SO much influence on how their offspring relate to humans that you def do not want to breed a female that has "human issues". it WILL be passed along to the offspring.


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

ann freier said:


> i like debbie's outline. a bitch/mare/cow/doe has SO much influence on how their offspring relate to humans that you def do not want to breed a female that has "human issues". it WILL be passed along to the offspring.


OK, define "human issues" ... And, are we talking about passing them on genetically or through learned behavior?

Debbie said "very happy confident with her family around them" which is basic common sense and I'd think a bitch who gets extremly agitated or aggressive/defensive WITH HER FAMILY has a screw loose somewhere. I also think most would not be too thrilled to let a complete stranger near the pups, regardless of their good relationship with the family.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

"human issues": females that do not trust humans in the first place for whatever reason whether genetic or environmental (ie, a learned behavior). 

i'm not talking about "strangers", a good "mother" SHOULD defend her offspring against "strangers", i meant a female that over-reacts (defensively) to ppl she's familiar with on a regular basis.

i have personally experienced the effect such mothers have in the equine/bovine/caprine species, and have no reason to expect it would be different w/canines (indeed, i would think it would have MORE influence considering the close relationship between humans/canines).


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

OK thanks. I was thinking there's family, and then there's the friends, neighbors, training buddies, passerby on the street, etc, whom the dog might know, but who are not part of the family/pack every day... And I can see my dogs having differing tolerance for that sort of thing.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

ann freier said:


> "human issues": females that do not trust humans in the first place for whatever reason whether genetic or environmental (ie, a learned behavior).
> 
> i'm not talking about "strangers", a good "mother" SHOULD defend her offspring against "strangers", i meant a female that over-reacts (defensively) to ppl she's familiar with on a regular basis.
> 
> i have personally experienced the effect such mothers have in the equine/bovine/caprine species, and have no reason to expect it would be different w/canines (indeed, i would think it would have MORE influence considering the close relationship between humans/canines).


Yes, agree that the female is so important and she must have an excellent temperament and be a good mother to produce good pups. I see it with my horses..flighty mare produces flighty foals and no one wants 1200 lbs of spook between their legs.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I had a few bitches that were good mothers that did not let me near the pups without biting me.

They were all good around people, and so it was a suprise. It got better with the next litters, but not a lot. I had no complaints about the pups at all.

The things I look for in a bitch are good match for the male, good pedigree, good thresholds and the ability to gear down when playing with dogs or pups smaller than they are. I don't like a bitch that has to dominate other dogs. I don't like that insecurity.

I want the pedigree, and an ability to work foremost.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I had a few bitches that were good mothers that did not let me near the pups without biting me.
> 
> They were all good around people, and so it was a suprise. It got better with the next litters, but not a lot. I had no complaints about the pups at all.
> 
> ...



These were females that you had for some time and wouldn't let you near the pups? I've never had one of mine do that in 20+ years of raising dogs. A couple were a bit that way during the first week with my husband. I believed it was because he wasn't around them as much because of working long hours. Or maybe a female is more likely to trust another female..  

The female influences the puppies through her actions and interaction with them as well as her genetics.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I just had a lot harder dogs than you do. It was a suprise to me, as they were not really the type.

Plus, you have Mals, and those worthless Baucerons. LOL 

These were Rottweilers, and NOT the trash that you see today. Good God they ****ed up that breed.

As a side note, Rotts are sexist. There was NO way that I would let a girl go near the pups in the first few weeks. I was their favorite. I still wonder what that was all about, never had issues other than when they had pups.

Funny thing, I wonder about that kind of stuff now, and just thought it was really ****ing strange at the time. However, a point could be made that when you are bleeding all over, the brain may not be in the mood to experiment to find out.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: The female influences the puppies through her actions and interaction with them as well as her genetics.

Not arguing that point. However, at what point does she start to have influence ?? I wish that I had made more notes about the little stuff back then. Probably would have lost it.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: The female influences the puppies through her actions and interaction with them as well as her genetics.
> 
> Not arguing that point. However, at what point does she start to have influence ?? I wish that I had made more notes about the little stuff back then. Probably would have lost it.


Not being a breeder I can only answer based on observing a lot of moms and litters and a lot of pups. 
I would say when she's carrying them!
If the mom is a shitter they will come out shitters pretty much whatever she's bred to. Again, not based on breeding just lots of observing. Also old time **** hunters I knew as a kid swore by this.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I just had a lot harder dogs than you do. It was a suprise to me, as they were not really the type.


dogs with bad judgment doesn't = hard imo. A dog that is harder on it's owner than the bad guy doesn't = hard in my book, but equals "shit".


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: The female influences the puppies through her actions and interaction with them as well as her genetics.
> 
> Not arguing that point. However, at what point does she start to have influence ?? I wish that I had made more notes about the little stuff back then. Probably would have lost it.


She would be influencing before weaning at 5 weeks of age.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I just had a lot harder dogs than you do. It was a suprise to me, as they were not really the type.
> 
> Plus, you have Mals, and those worthless Baucerons. LOL
> 
> ...



BTW, don't those "dogs in pig suits" squish and lay on their puppies more often than not?..I guess only the really resilient, tough ones survive the whelping box!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: dogs with bad judgment doesn't = hard imo. A dog that is harder on it's owner than the bad guy doesn't = hard in my book, but equals "shit".

Since when did I say that they were harder towards me than the bad guy ??

Try not to add to what I say. The fact that I doubt that you have Mals harder than my Rotts might have pissed you off a bit, but adding to what I say is not going to help you. They are two different creatures, and I would not doubt that there are Rottweiler traits that cannot compare to Mals, but hardness ?? I doubt in any definition that your Mals, or anyones Mals would come close on average. 

Of course that is my opinion, and I cannot dig them up from the grave to show you, but I am sure that if I could somehow, you would not argue that point.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: She would be influencing before weaning at 5 weeks of age.

My dogs in pig suits were weaned at 4 weeks. 

Quote: BTW, don't those "dogs in pig suits" squish and lay on their puppies more often than not?..I guess only the really resilient, tough ones survive the whelping box!

I have had very few that were squished as you say. I think that most breeders I have met that have had a pup squished go into denial, and don't mention the pup again. How many have you had squished ?? Are you gonna say none ?? LOL


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: dogs with bad judgment doesn't = hard imo. A dog that is harder on it's owner than the bad guy doesn't = hard in my book, but equals "shit".
> 
> Since when did I say that they were harder towards me than the bad guy ??
> 
> ...



Got a rise out of you! This is what you do to everyone else! Score! :grin:


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: She would be influencing before weaning at 5 weeks of age.
> 
> My dogs in pig suits were weaned at 4 weeks.
> 
> ...


I've had one squished by a Beauceron when she caught kennel cough right before the pups were born..not sure if that's an excuse. But, she only had 3 pups and squished one. Her first litter was 9 and she was great with all of them. Another whole litter eaten by a Beauceron. I think she started with 5. She was out of here quickly afterwards.

Malinois - never lost a puppy from squishing. We cull down to a reasonable # when they are born and also had weak/runts die in the first couple days naturally. I never keep more than 10..normally 8. Honestly have never had a Malinois squish a puppy in 20 years.

Squishing is a Rottie/Mastiff/Pig joke!! Pigs are known for laying on their babies and that's where the term "pig rail" came into play on whelping boxes. 

"Dogs in Pig Suit" = Rottie. 
Dobie on Steroids = Beauceron. 
Swamp Collie = GSD. 
European Coyote = Malinois. 
I've heard nicknames for many of the breeds. Got any?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Got a rise out of you! This is what you do to everyone else! Score! 

That was a rise ?? Gotta get to know me better. I can argue points in my sleep. I would have been a lawyer, except I have morals and ethics. LOL


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I have two versions of what I call a dog. 

Good dog

Shitter

LOL that is the extent of my thought process in that area. I do see a lot of Rotts in the last few years that have pig snouts. : ) I would call them pigs, but mostly because they will eat so much. Never had a delicate eater in my Rotts. I used to call feeding slopping the hogs.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Good Mother for me would be all the "mothering" qualities I listed before.

Then "Good Producer" to me would be a female that produces dogs with the qualities you seek and pups that are as good as herself or better when matched/bred to good producing males.

If a female is bred twice to good matches and produces nothing to write home about then I give up on the female as a brood bitch.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

The pups maybe seem to be influenced by mom more because most people only let mom raise the pups. When they are raised with dad, aunts, older sibs, doesn't matter much what mom is like.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I have two versions of what I call a dog.
> 
> Good dog
> 
> ...


The "Dogs in Pig Suits" term I heard for the first time about 20 years ago..when I was training in Schutzhund. I know it was before the BH requirement and I was working dogs at Grewe's club. The club was mainly GSDs and a few Rotties. The owners would sling the "Swamp Collie" and "Pig" comments back and forth. I started with a German Shorthair/Border Collie/Aussie mixed male. They called him "the bird dog". The Beauces they coined "Dobies on Steriods". Al B. had his Am. Bulldogs "Preditor" and a son of Pred there. I don't think there was a name for them..except mutts. His dogs were very nice!


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

One thing I've noticed is that I've always like the puppies and also foals best from the mothers that were not a complete pushover. I've seen some bitches that would avoid their puppies toward weaning time instead of just telling them "no". Also, mares that would let their babies bite, kick and jump on them created really inappropriate behavior in the foals that I would have to fix later or the herd would have to fix. I see Don's point of the influence of the pack/family helping if the pups had a weaker mom or one that wasn't the best in some ways. Definitely seen it in a herd of horses.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> The pups maybe seem to be influenced by mom more because most people only let mom raise the pups. When they are raised with dad, aunts, older sibs, doesn't matter much what mom is like.


Kind of left that last post hanging. Mom, is normally the only dog around the pups so what the pups are doing is learning their behavior based on that one dog. The mother of the pups I have been posting avoids contact with me yet the pups are all rock solid because they have been around multiple personalities.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

My different dogs do definitely treat the young pups differently. 

My almost 2 year old female malinois "Cadence" whose never had pups plays with them and sets boundaries such as disciplining them for jumping on her and getting in her way. 

D'Only, the 9 month old male basically ignores them unless they are in his way. He finds them just annoying and too small to be interesting. He'd rather interact with me or play with a dog his size and his speed. 

Both malinios seem to always lead the pups into difficult terrain when on hikes and just act like "oh, well..deal with it. It's not our problem". 

The 3 year old Beauceron female "Bijou" is very maternal with them and will try to help them when they are stuck and go back and move her mouth at them like she's saying "come on, you can do it" and keeps track of them in a nurturing way. She's had puppies.

Photos from last evenings hike. They are a bit blurry because of the lighting and cheap camera. You can see the 3 month old puppies with the malinios and beauceron.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Fun photos Debbie. That is what pups should be doing.....learning.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Fun photos Debbie. That is what pups should be doing.....learning.


Thanks! Hey, and it's great exercise for everyone. I really enjoy watching the dogs together..all their interactions and problem solving. The horses running and a field together and their dynamics. I think it is all very interesting.


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