# What do I want a dog for?



## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

After much thought on my own personal uses for a dog I started thinking about GSD/Malinois mix. I like to dabble in sports,mostly Schutzhund but have spent a little bit of time doing ring. All were very fun but I thought to myself why do I like this so much and why am I training these dogs for this. I came to the conclusion that I'm not interested in competing with other people, not saying that I won't title my dog ever. . I'd be satisfied with a club level title,just not looking to compete against others I guess.
So it comes down to this,I want a dog that I can rely on to protect my wife with it's life if she took it for a walk at night in the city. I'm talking a full out beating from a criminal and the dog fights back even harder, never ever thinking of leaving. Same goes for if someone broke into my house. I guess I'm looking for this in a male Malinois but where do you find one? I do see this in Dave Blank's GSD and from what Mike Suttle speaks of about Arko. Where are the male malinois that are like this? I'm now seeing why the dutch mix lines. From a breeding standpoint mixing is the way to go for a true overall working dog.
It does seem like the Malinois and GSD compliment each other well. GSD's could use the health, speed, and agility of the Malinois while the Malinois can take the nerve, crushing grips, and power of the GSD(considering the traits would blend like that, which I know isn't always the case).
How many people have seen these crosses and how have they been?


----------



## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Timothy Stacy said:


> After much thought on my own personal uses for a dog I started thinking about GSD/Malinois mix. I like to dabble in sports,mostly Schutzhund but have spent a little bit of time doing ring. All were very fun but I thought to myself why do I like this so much and why am I training these dogs for this. I came to the conclusion that I'm not interested in competing with other people, not saying that I won't title my dog ever. . I'd be satisfied with a club level title,just not looking to compete against others I guess.
> So it comes down to this,I want a dog that I can rely on to protect my wife with it's life if she took it for a walk at night in the city. I'm talking a full out beating from a criminal and the dog fights back even harder, never ever thinking of leaving. Same goes for if someone broke into my house. I guess I'm looking for this in a male Malinois but where do you find one? I do see this in Dave Blank's GSD and from what Mike Suttle speaks of about Arko. Where are the male malinois that are like this? I'm now seeing why the dutch mix lines. From a breeding standpoint mixing is the way to go for a true overall working dog.
> It does seem like the Malinois and GSD compliment each other well. GSD's could use the health, speed, and agility of the Malinois while the Malinois can take the nerve, crushing grips, and power of the GSD(considering the traits would blend like that, which I know isn't always the case).
> How many people have seen these crosses and how have they been?


I have seen some very nice Mali X GSD, and Dutchie X GSD crosses. But I have tried to produce that here and even with Arko bred to the GSD that I chose it was a trainwreck overall. I had 9 puppies and in that litter I had 2 that were true police dogs, the other 7 were shitters. I think with such a drastic outcross you get puppies that are all over the place in the same litter (some great and some really shitty). With Mali X Dutchie crosses you get much more consistant litters I think. The ones that we import work great because we are able to buy the one or two from the litters that are great dogs when they are young adults. So what I think is this.......there are great ones out there, but to breed a litter of them you will have to wash out 90% of them, the other 10% will likely be great dogs.
I may try it again later with Lubeck bred back to a Malinois, then take that back to a Mali or Dutchie ( Arko or Carlos maybe). I think it is an interesting idea, but the Dutch have already perfected it and when I try it I feel like I am messing it up somehow. I have consulted with Gerben about this stuff a great deal and we may try it again with Lubeck. I dont think I will do it with Arko to a GSD again.
I think if you want a nice Mali X GSD mix you are better off buying a 12 month old.


----------



## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

When I think of all of the breeds that I have seen in my life, the one type that has the best environmental nerves is the terrier, not the GSD or the Mali / Dutchie. I dont think the GSD will help with the nerves of a good Mali, in fact I see more environmental nerve problems with GSDs than Dutch Malis really.
I think if you do a total outcross, you should find a big terrier that does not have a wirery coat and floppy ears and get that down do about a 1/8 terrier, 7/8 Mali. You should experiment with that instead Tim, I am curious about that!!


----------



## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

An Airedailenois ?? 

Laekens have wire hair, so that wouln't be completely off the mark... LOL


----------



## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Yeah, what kind of terrier? I still like Arko more than any terrier I know. In fact where would one find a good terrier?


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Me? I'd probably start with an EBTx Patterdale cross. A little small to begin with but I think it'd get you in the right direction. Scroll down to the bottom and you can see an example of what such a cross would look like.

http://images.google.com/imgres?img...en&client=safari&rls=en-us&sa=N&start=18&um=1


----------



## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Nice. Does he do bite work?


----------



## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

I personally cannot see the GSD giving anything as far as working traits (Drive, nerves, speed, etc) and maybe the only thing could be trainability. But I am not going to try and add trainability and then add the risk of worse HD and ED, or lower drive. 
Some people prefer good GSD's, and there are good GSD's. Others prefer the Malinois or Dutchie. There is no golden middle by mixing the two together in my eyes. If all your looking for is a man stopper go get an Ovcharka.


----------



## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Chris aren't the dutch doing these mixes already. HD would be a huge concern with any GSD. What about Malinois to Dutchies. That seems even more common then the GSd/ Malinois cross. Are those Ovcharka even trainable? I still want to do sport but not so much at a competitive level but I still enjoy training when I can.


----------



## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Chris aren't the dutch doing these mixes already. HD would be a huge concern with any GSD. What about Malinois to Dutchies. That seems even more common then the GSd/ Malinois cross. Are those Ovcharka even trainable? I still want to do sport but not so much at a competitive level but I still enjoy training when I can.


There is some GSD in the Dutch dogs along ways back, and from time to time someone will breed their GSD to a Mali for no other reason than they might like the dog they breed to. However when you look into the most sucessful KNPV dogs, rarely do you see GSD X Mali dogs. There was even a Doberman x Mali that was in the PH1 nationals, yet Im sure not many people would want to do that outcross. 
The Dutchie to Mali crosses are way, way more popular, and sucessful than the GSD crosses are. But the Mali and the Dutchie (KNPV only, FCI Dutchies are well below GSD's) are far closer in blood and character traits than the GSD are. 
Even historically when the Dutchie club in Holland allowed the GSD to be brought in for outcrosses, it was a disaster and they never did it again, they went out to Malis only after that.
Ovcharkas arnt particularly trainable, but you dont need to train them to get them to destroy someone who comes near you. lol


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Ditto with Mike Suttle on the environmental soundness!
You want a terrier with a real edge? Jadg terrier (jag terrier/Yock terrier/Jadghund)
For size I'd still use the Airedale. Although I like a rough coat, the coat isn't what a working dog is about is it!!


----------



## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Christopher Jones said:


> There is some GSD in the Dutch dogs along ways back, and from time to time someone will breed their GSD to a Mali for no other reason than they might like the dog they breed to. However when you look into the most sucessful KNPV dogs, rarely do you see GSD X Mali dogs. There was even a Doberman x Mali that was in the PH1 nationals, yet Im sure not many people would want to do that outcross.
> The Dutchie to Mali crosses are way, way more popular, and sucessful than the GSD crosses are. But the Mali and the Dutchie (KNPV only, FCI Dutchies are well below GSD's) are far closer in blood and character traits than the GSD are.
> Even historically when the Dutchie club in Holland allowed the GSD to be brought in for outcrosses, it was a disaster and they never did it again, they went out to Malis only after that.
> Ovcharkas arnt particularly trainable, but you dont need to train them to get them to destroy someone who comes near you. lol


Good information Chris. And I'll stay away from the Ovcharkas LOL


----------



## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Timothy Stacy said:


> And I'll stay away from the Ovcharkas LOL


There a guy in Holland called Albert Kamphuis who is a life long KNPV guy having been in the KNPV Nationals on 2 or 3 occasions and owning and training some of the best dogs in Holland and he was visiting his son who lives here. He is a real serious dog guy who has had an influence in breeding and training. He has owned and seen his fair share of crazy, crazy Malinois over the last 30 years. So anyways the topic of Ovcharkas came up and his face lit up. His part time job in Holland is to look after a group of them that are used to guard a shopping centre that is in a rough area. So he is the one who feeds them, tends to them and lets them in and out. He was saying that these dogs are far more serious than Malis and Dutchies. He was saying how he has to stick to certain rules when around them such as not letting any of them walk behind him, he always carries a big wooden stick with him when hes with them, and always someone is outside waiting for him to come out alive. Added to this is my friend from the Ukraine who lives near me. He also used to train them in Ulraine/Russia and he says very similar things about them. They must be some crazy dogs.


----------



## Ellen Piepers (Nov 6, 2008)

We've got a GSD cross bitch, see http://www.bloedlijnen.nl/stamboom.php?ID=14871 

But she's not a real mali/GSD mix, as you can see in her pedigree. I'm quite sure she'd protect me if something threatening happened, judging from her reactions. Her full sister Tosca scored 437 at the PH1 trial last Spring, and Laika will go next year. Hips etc. are fine, but in general her build is not typically GSD (fortunately), although she's a bit sturdier than the typical malinois. She's quite small but very fast and strong. Not easy to train (we got her at 10 months because the first owner was afraid of her), extremely possessive with objects, but apart from that very easy to live with. We had a litter of four last winter (father a knpv xmalinois), and 3 are being trained in KNPV and doing well. The third we've lost track of due to a misjudgement of character, but we're still trying to find out what happened to that one (she was an extremely stable pup that stood her ground in the storm of the other 3 pups).


----------

