# Age to start bite work introduction



## Mari Steward

I have a 9 week old pup that loves to bite and attack. She plays tug with my other dogs but prefers to bite flesh versus inanimate objects. I have started clicker traiing for obedience basics (just sit and down for now). At what age would I start bite work? Should I start with a flirt pole, rage, tug, toy, etc? How does one target a young pups drive so that she is learning something new?

I know that this post may be a bit confusing but I just want to hear from others what they do with their young working pups.


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## Mike Schoonbrood

First off I wouldn't let the pup tug with other dogs, or even spend much (if any) time with older dogs. But definitely no tugging with them.

I'd have someone that knows what they are doing work the pup on basics till he starts teething, then lay off any tugging till all the adult teeth are set.


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## Mari Steward

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> First off I wouldn't let the pup tug with other dogs, or even spend much (if any) time with older dogs. But definitely no tugging with them.
> 
> I'd have someone that knows what they are doing work the pup on basics till he starts teething, then lay off any tugging till all the adult teeth are set.


Thanks Mike I was wondering about that and how that would affect her teeth. However, she should be ok with chewing on soft toys and rubber, right?


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## Michelle Reusser

I start to do rag work first as soon as my pups get here, then move onto a tug when they will take one with a full mouth grip. My last pup didn't care about teething, that didn't slow him down much, I was just carefull not to pull him around after he hit he tug. We shall see how his little sis handles things. So far I have done much less bitwork with her and more OB. She was much faster about picking up fetching and the OB. All Baden wanted to do was bite bite bite.


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## Howard Gaines III

Mari Steward said:


> I have a 9 week old pup that loves to bite and attack. She plays tug with my other dogs but prefers to bite flesh versus inanimate objects. I have started clicker traiing for obedience basics (just sit and down for now). At what age would I start bite work? Should I start with a flirt pole, rage, tug, toy, etc? How does one target a young pups drive so that she is learning something new?
> 
> I know that this post may be a bit confusing but I just want to hear from others what they do with their young working pups.


Prey mode Grasshopper!:mrgreen: 
Mari we do bite work with puppies but we don't pull on the rag. When the puppy bites, we slip it. No tug games with the big dogs or us. The focus is target and slip. Crate the puppy by the field so that it can see what the big dogs are doing, imprinting. And I would be careful all the way to 6 months, more if needed.

Train'em Proud!\\/


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## Howard Gaines III

Michelle Kehoe said:


> I start to do rag work first as soon as my pups get here, then move onto a tug when they will take one with a full mouth grip. My last pup didn't care about teething, that didn't slow him down much, I was just carefull not to pull him around after he hit he tug. We shall see how his little sis handles things. So far I have done much less bitwork with her and more OB. She was much faster about picking up fetching and the OB. All Baden wanted to do was bite bite bite.


Michelle what did you use for a rag? Cotton, burlap, leather?


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## Michelle Reusser

All of the above Howard. I also have them retreiving metal, plastic, fuzzy stuff, rocks, jingly things, whatever I can think up. If their is something they don't like so much in their mouths, we work on that.


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## Guest

I like to start muzzle training as soon as possible. 5-6 weeks ideally. After that the dog starts getting too interested in "prey". After that I fly my pups to Liberia where we introduce them to POWS. I have a connection with Charles Taylor.

I need to show the dog the big picture first, and then he gets rewarded. In the real world, we don't get a full paycheck if we do half our work, or show up only half the time.

Additionally, I don't care if the dog likes it. It's a job. And if he doesn't like the reward initially, I make him like it.

The thing with many PPD/PSD trainers is that they have a sport background, which is....fine. It's cute to have a dog look good and do things fast, but I train for the REAL world. Do you think a wolf pup can afford the luxury of being in prey mode when a grizzly bear comes by to eat it? No. He has to defend himself right then and there. Non-hackers get killed. It's the law of the wild.

In fact, that's how I like to undertake my breeding too. I let the males sort it out amongst themselves, and whoever is left standing gets to mate.

What's missing in many of today's dogs is the ability to think. Back in olde tymes, the dog was given the RESPECT to do his job FULLY. Now-a-days, we have all this crap about grip training, and targeting. That is a DISRESPECT TO THE CANINE TOTEM SPIRIT. If you give him the responsibility you must give him the power. Our dogs must be given license to do what PREDATORY CARNIVORES DO. We must let them KILL.

That is the ultimate reward, and must be instilled from day one.


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## Ian Forbes

LMAO :mrgreen: :mrgreen: 

I get the newly whelped pups to bite the bitch's teat........


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## Guest

What's distressing is that this is a composite of stuff I've actually heard over the years.

In fact, at the risk of being too self-indulgent I cut myself short. I had plenty more.


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## Michelle Reusser

Why do you not pull on the rag Howard? My pups loose interest and start to chew if I just let them have it. They rather like the fight part. I even bring out the stick and wave it around, stroke them with it and give little taps if they don't show any backing off.


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## Daryl Ehret

Do you start with live baby bunnies, chickens... before moving on to POW's? I gotta wonder what your dog's thinking while defending against the occasional grizzly?


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## Ian Forbes

Daryl Ehret said:


> I gotta wonder what your dog's thinking while defending against the occasional grizzly?


I'm guessing it flips into Bear Drive....


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## Guest

Daryl, 

It's both simple and complex. To a great degree, if you have to ask, you wouldn't understand.

The basis of my philosophy lies at the root of the man-dog relationship. It involves astral travel to the space/time when early man learned the arts of pack-hunting and monogomy from his canine teachers.

We have no idea how much we owe them.


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## Daryl Ehret

OMG, you're killin' me. Send the dogs to finish me off! ;-)


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## Guest

You're assuming I have the power to "send them". Do any of us have that power? Really?

Maybe, in reality, I'd just be sending myself.


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## Howard Gaines III

Steven Lepic said:


> I like to start muzzle training as soon as possible. 5-6 weeks ideally. After that the dog starts getting too interested in "prey". After that I fly my pups to Liberia where we introduce them to POWS. I have a connection with Charles Taylor.
> 
> I need to show the dog the big picture first, and then he gets rewarded. In the real world, we don't get a full paycheck if we do half our work, or show up only half the time.
> 
> Additionally, I don't care if the dog likes it. It's a job. And if he doesn't like the reward initially, I make him like it.
> 
> The thing with many PPD/PSD trainers is that they have a sport background, which is....fine. It's cute to have a dog look good and do things fast, but I train for the REAL world. Do you think a wolf pup can afford the luxury of being in prey mode when a grizzly bear comes by to eat it? No. He has to defend himself right then and there. Non-hackers get killed. It's the law of the wild.
> 
> In fact, that's how I like to undertake my breeding too. I let the males sort it out amongst themselves, and whoever is left standing gets to mate.
> 
> What's missing in many of today's dogs is the ability to think. Back in olde tymes, the dog was given the RESPECT to do his job FULLY. Now-a-days, we have all this crap about grip training, and targeting. That is a DISRESPECT TO THE CANINE TOTEM SPIRIT. If you give him the responsibility you must give him the power. Our dogs must be given license to do what PREDATORY CARNIVORES DO. We must let them KILL.
> 
> That is the ultimate reward, and must be instilled from day one.


*Steven interesting post.* Just for those like myself who are learning, what exactly is *your* background in dog training, as I didn't see anything in the Bio Section to capture my answer?

You start muzzle work at 5-6 weeks of age? Who makes muzzles that small and how much?

Schutzhund started out as a German Shepherd breed activity. Basically testing across the board for animals which showed strong promise in obedience, tracking, and protection. It has clearly expanded into other sports and K-9 venues. These same test markers are used today in police work, the real world, and bad guys do get bit from dogs trained there and retooled for police work. Not sport, the real world.

On the topic of dogs thinking; I see sport and PP dogs "thinking," some out think the owner and cost points in sport Schutzhund, French Ring, and KNPV. Thinking dogs getting themself and the handler in trouble. This says nothing about the "thinking" police dogs which work 8-10 hour shifts with their K-9 handlers.

"...all this crap about grip training, and targeting." Odd! A person of great K-9 knowledge would know that these are the foundation tools for bite development, you know...building blocks for all working dog activities. Crap? Without it how does the dog learn to take their genetic material and tool it for the real world?:-k 

So again, what is your background?:-k


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## Howard Gaines III

Michelle Kehoe said:


> Why do you not pull on the rag Howard? My pups loose interest and start to chew if I just let them have it. They rather like the fight part. I even bring out the stick and wave it around, stroke them with it and give little taps if they don't show any backing off.


I flip the rag in a vertical/dead prey position so the puppy can turn and bite in. Pulling runs the risk of tooth damage in setting teeth. After 6 months I shake the rag or tug or puppy sleeve if the teeth are firm. Kind of like a death shake from a standing vertical position. I then slip the sleev or rag and the puppy wins. Always strong in the bite and all counter bites. Using the stick, GREAT move! Use it to brush the puppy, light body contact, and see that it can't be hurt by it. Sounds like you are doing good stuff to me Michelle!!!!\\/


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## Guest

I was a founding member of Death Ring. The geographic venues and membership is modular and mobile, since it involves [what's generally considered to be] human trafficking and animal "abuse". All I can say is that it takes place in mountainous regions.

Essentially it's a breed survey and training venue, but the difference is that all breeding is done posthumously. Frozen eggs and semen are stored, to be later used once the testing of the living animals are completed...which doesn't take long.

The final exercise is to have a dog chase a man over a sheer cliff, and kill him before they both land. 

We allow no training in the way of conditioned responses. That interferes with the instinct and drive we're trying to preserve from the days of yore.


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## Howard Gaines III

Steven Lepic said:


> I was a founding member of Death Ring. The geographic venues and membership is modular and mobile, since it involves [what's generally considered to be] human trafficking and animal "abuse". All I can say is that it takes place in mountainous regions.
> 
> Essentially it's a breed survey and training venue, but the difference is that all breeding is done posthumously. Frozen eggs and semen are stored, to be later used once the testing of the living animals are completed...which doesn't take long.
> 
> The final exercise is to have a dog chase a man over a sheer cliff, and kill him before they both land.
> 
> We allow no training in the way of conditioned responses. That interferes with the instinct and drive we're trying to preserve from the days of yore.


Does the dog get to eat the person if it lives or is the human flesh divided up amoung the masses?:twisted:


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## Geoff Empey

Steven Lepic said:


> The final exercise is to have a dog chase a man over a sheer cliff, and kill him before they both land.


We have been having problems with that exercise. Basically Labradors with webbing between their toes can actually paddle through the air to get to the quarry. But other breeds don't get the air paddling technique. I'm not sure if it is because of they are trying to steer with their tails or not either. I'm wondering if they make dog flippers for breeds that don't have webbing between their toes? Something like that would give the dog the control needed to zero in on its prey during the freefall.


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## susan tuck

Steven Lepic said:


> Daryl,
> 
> It's both simple and complex. To a great degree, if you have to ask, you wouldn't understand.


 
That's perfect. lol, lol


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## Daryl Ehret

Some start at 3 weeks with targeting work, before teeth are even in place.


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## Howard Gaines III

Geoff Empey said:


> We have been having problems with that exercise. Basically Labradors with webbing between their toes can actually paddle through the air to get to the quarry. But other breeds don't get the air paddling technique. I'm not sure if it is because of they are trying to steer with their tails or not either. I'm wondering if they make dog flippers for breeds that don't have webbing between their toes? Something like that would give the dog the control needed to zero in on its prey during the freefall.


The air in Canada is thinner and so the Labs will have issues with air travel. Air sickness is on the rise, like gas prices! :-k :mrgreen:


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## Guest

> So again, what is your background?:-k


I'm an intern with this trainer:



He won't brag, but he has over 80 years of experience, and won championships in everything.


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## Jennifer Coulter

Steven Lepic said:


> I'm an intern with this trainer:
> 
> h
> 
> He won't brag, but he has over 80 years of experience, and won championships in everything.


 
    WOW.


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## susan tuck

WTF????? Wow is right! What a moron and a buffoon.


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## Mari Steward

This post has quickly gone to another place...WOW!!! 
As for everyone that provided helpful comments on how to develop bitework with a young pup, THANKS!!!


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## Mike Scheiber

Steven Lepic said:


> I'm an intern with this trainer:
> 
> He won't brag, but he has over 80 years of experience, and won championships in everything.


I have often wondered why you kept that color of dog :-k Now we all know. How can I get my 2 minutes and 19 seconds back. You frickin idiot!


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## Guest

Please. He's a great man.


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## susan tuck

And you are a great man to know he is a great man.


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## Bob Scott

As a mod I'm going to say that fun is fun in a post but we don't need that kind of bullshit posted on this forum.
Post deleated!!!!


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## Howard Gaines III

susan tuck said:


> WTF????? Wow is right! What a moron and a buffoon.


Susan, Susan, Susan...well said girl!!!:mrgreen: 
You put words to thought. With thinking this far out, why is he still here. We all can agree and disagree on points, nothing wrong with that. And we have all done it from time to time, but this.....F-ing YIPES[-(


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## susan tuck

Just so we are clear, I like Steven and appreciate his sense of humor.


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## Bob Scott

The post wasn't ment to express anyones personel views here. I just didn't want anyone to misunderstand what the poster ment and it and carry it further.


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