# bad Schutzhund helper/dirty bite video&photos



## chris haynie (Sep 15, 2009)

recently i have been reading thru lots of info on schutzhund. 

I am thinking of training to be a helper. I see a lot of videos showing good and great helpers but I was wondering if ya'll can post me some links to pics or vids of bad helpers. 

any vids of serious helper errors/mistakes would be helpful. 

also i have been reading alot about dogs that "bite dirty". as i am understanding it now dirty bite is one that is not clean, one where the dog shakes alot, or is just a bite at an innapropriate time. any videos and corresponding thoughts on "dirty bites" would be enlightening. 

I have been having some trouble finding videos of these two topics as everyone posts thier show off and perfect performance videos and no one post up vids with titles like "my dog took a cheap shot" or "this helper should be banned" 

thanks.


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## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

not exactly what you're talking about 
it is how to do it right
but this video gives a few examples of Why not to do it wrong and common mistakes
http://germanshepherddog.com/members/Helper%20Program/helpervideo.htm

if i had a video camera i could get u dirty in the blind every Saturday....LOL


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## chris haynie (Sep 15, 2009)

thats a good video. i can't believe i missed that one. i found the helper program pdf on there a while back (i think you posted the link for me) and have been reading it. good video. 

knowing whats right is good! as a total newbie knowing whats wrong will be helpful too.

most of the dirty biting i have read about seems to be during the bark and hold after he blind search. i think its amazing that when the dogs are so hype they restrain themselves from going onto the sleeve so it doesn't suprise me that alot of dogs go dirty on this exercise. 
thanks mike.


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## Adi Ibrahimbegovic (Nov 21, 2008)

A so called "dirty bite" is commonly reffered as the dog approached the 6th blind, where the decoy is and before settign into the bark and hold - it takes a nibble at the sleeve saying hello.

The dogs don't necessarily "restrain" themselves as you put it, they have done it 100s (or 1000s of times before) in the training and there is always a long line (with the second person grabbing it as the dog approached the blind), so he will be yanked away if he takes a cheap shot.

Some people also use a e-collar and buzz him for the dirty bite.

If you want to see a hard day's work for a helper at a major national tournament being knocked on his ass, look here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6e5cS0CxjBs

The big black and tan GSD as approx. 4 minutes into the video is a famous banger and helper knocker Eik Nordenstamm owned at the time by Terry Macias.

That dog had a reputation for taking down any helper anywhere anytime. I don't know why or how, maybe the dog had some muzzle work done before so he learned to go and push helper's chest at full speed with his front paws , or maybe he just realized "that's how you do it - go for it". Second, he was a large, muscular dog with an attitude, so 90 lbs runnnig at 30 miles at you and aiming at the chest NOT the sleeve, well... football tackle.

When this dog trialed, as I have heard, 8 times out of 10 the helper is going down on the long bite.

Just yesterday I was talking about that dog and heard a story that a helper had a standing bet that ' There is no way that dog will take me down..." The dog knocked him down and did some tilling and yardwork plowing him in the grass on his back. The excuse was - Umm... I slipped, the grass was wet"...


Second example... but I can't find the video now, it's out there... A dog was doing a Sch routine and everything went smooth till the end when they were doing the transport back to the judge to fnish the whole thing. The decoy unfortunately stepped ont he dog's paw and the dog nailed him and bit his leg. Automatic disqualification, although in my book, I'd give the dog a steak that night as he did what I would want him to do. then again, I don't look at the Schutzhund as a sport, really and usualy the dog I like the best at a Sch trial is not the one that wins 9 times out of 10 anyways.


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Adi Ibrahimbegovic said:


> Second example... but I can't find the video now, it's out there... A dog was doing a Sch routine and everything went smooth till the end when they were doing the transport back to the judge to fnish the whole thing. The decoy unfortunately stepped ont he dog's paw and the dog nailed him and bit his leg. Automatic disqualification, although in my book, I'd give the dog a steak that night as he did what I would want him to do. .


Is this it?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nX3DUHBJ1LA
Hawk vom Eichenluft 2007 USA Nationals, Helper Shane Garrehy about five minutes into the video


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## Adi Ibrahimbegovic (Nov 21, 2008)

Yep, that's the one - good work! The dog did good. The helper is a good helper too, it was an honest mistake/accident.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

trial helper or training helper?


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Here's something, not of bad helper work but rather of a naughty dog whose full of himself. If you do become a helper, it's something you can look forward to every now and then . I took at least the first segment of this video so I figure it's alright that I post it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHztKeRu0U8&feature=channel


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## Adi Ibrahimbegovic (Nov 21, 2008)

Ha ha. trial, of course. I guess it's a trick question, I don't know.

The difference between trial and GOOD training helper is day and night.

this helpetr's work was correct. I don't know him personally, never met him and never trained with him, I just watched maybe 4 or 5 videos omline with him as a helper. So, what kind of a training helper he is, I have not the slightest clue.



Chris Michalek said:


> trial helper or training helper?


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

just go to a helper seminar. They will teach what you need. Then you need to work with a bunch of dogs for a few months. Learning to catch a dog is the most difficult thing, otherwise it's not hard at all. 

I was gonna get certified as a helper but decided I didn't want to because I get so heavily involved in whatever I do and didn't want to build up a pile of equipment for a sport I was already losing interest in.

I think it's easy to get certified at least if you were part of the seminar at the trial that day.

For some reason people think being certified as a club level helper = training helper. 

Good luck.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

in the vid adi posted, the GSD and the 2 Mals that busted the helper's butt, all seemed to target center mass vs sleeve, they all had their butts between the helper's legs--coincidence (spelling isn't right, i know)?

i'm no expert by ANY means--it just struck me watching that video. plus flinks trains his dogs to hit center mass, and he's no slouch at training Sch dogs...


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Those two helpers in the first video was Richard Shook and Ray Jeffers. Both are very good helpers. Those dogs did center up as stated. Every good helper will find himself on his butt from time to time, if not he ain't doing his job.


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## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

looked to me that the first dog bit on the elbow of the sleeve though he himself was centered on the man
like maybe the decoy decided early he was going to take him to the right and the dog decided, no your not...LOL...good dog
second knockdown dog looked like the helpers feet weren't ready, maybe he was that much faster then the couple dogs before him

I am very novice at catching dogs and can tell you what I screw up a lot
for me right now its learning which dogs come in at which angles
we have some jumpers and some that disappear under the sleeve out of view before they come up
every once in a while i forget which dog im on and have the damn bite bar all wrong

i have gone down a few times usually when they get into my legs, im a pretty big guy
i try not to overdo it, just keep it simple, i would hate to hurt a dog
don't run as fast as you can, run as fast as you can safely


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Forget the video and get with someone who can CERTIFY you. This is like buying a tape on soccer playing or karate and then trying to be good at it. If you are into the Schutzhund DVG, I think Butch Henderson is the certifying person. OFS. There is far too much to TALK about that videos/DVDs will not go into. 

Besides, how many organizations want to put out a "wanger video" with someone sscrewing up dogs? The object is to promote the cause not show how screwless they are! And if you jam or fling the dog, you don't understand how to SAFELY catch it, set, and drive it. Slingshoting looks cool and is one of the greatest ways to ruin a dog other than giving no slack straight in and breaking the neck!!!

Scrap the vids!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Mario Fernandez (Jun 21, 2008)

Chris:

The best advice I can give you. Video can only teach you so much. You need to go out and work dogs. Find a good teacher and a club. The best way I learned was to work on expeirenced dogs and retired dogs. These dogs taught me alot. tecnique wise and if/when I made mistakes it was no big deal, they can deal. You being in VA, I would pay a visit to Armin Winkler. 

The helper Shane Garrehy is a good trial and training helper. 

Adi...Eik was a special dog. He is going on 11 now and still looks like he is 5. The dog had incredible endurance. Eik likes body contact, he comes legs first at times or would just body cross you..your best bet was to take him stick side, a last minute stick treath would often give him the right attraction...Eik was incredibly fast (Mal speed) and on the courage test at times it seemed his head would not move while running and you blink he was on top of you...I had the pleasure of being in the same club as Terry and got to work Eik a lot. Eik taught me alot of things and humbled me more times than I can remember. I bare a scare on my chest from Eik, while trying to make a miss I thought I was fast.. but Eik was faster.. I loved this dog. 

My lil tribute to Eik and another great dog in our club Turk.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6laaB5n9MY&feature=channel_page

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuSWQoW1dsw&feature=channel_page


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Shoulda posted this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UiwdQdXMXVA&feature=channel


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## nathan cram (Jun 9, 2008)

did u put that up for the hair or the skills lol


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## Anita Griffing (Aug 8, 2009)

The fronthalf helper in your video, Jeff, needs to put his stick up on the reattacks. He needs to stop bending over. He does a crappy drive; high non-threatening drive. The backhalf helper has an ok drive, but can't catch a dog. He should be much stronger on the lock up during the out. He should grab the sleeve to keep it still. I would have just pooped if I saw that and was the next dog up. Thank you for the good example of what not to do. IMO
AG


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## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Shoulda posted this video.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UiwdQdXMXVA&feature=channel


more questions that critique
but both those helpers looked too weak to lock up, carry or drive the dog
it was like the dog was directing them
is that a strong dog or just a weak decoy

and that second guy on the face attack, is that what you call jamming a dog?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

What are you gonna do with a dog that fast that centers ?? 

Just what he did, come to nearly a complete stop and do the best you can.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Bending over! I thought he was kicked in the nutz...maybe one of the Marx Brothers!!!:mrgreen:


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## Dana McMahan (Apr 5, 2006)

http://s256.photobucket.com/albums/hh177/witty_one/?action=view&current=dana.gif

One of my shining moments of decoy work, converted into a handy .gif file by one of the guys at my old club so I could watch it over, and over, and over ....


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

You look like a chick helper for sure.


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## Dana McMahan (Apr 5, 2006)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ax7f_N7JmR0

More bad helper work from myself... I had this huge problem of dropping the stick during the catches as my friend J so kindly points out every single time.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

What are you, like a dwarf ?? That sleeve looks like your leg could go in it.
Hard to look competent with that thing on.


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## Dana McMahan (Apr 5, 2006)

I'm 5'4. Its really hard to find a sleeve that fits a girl's arm. I use to get massive brusing because the cuff would jam into my arm on every catch. The schweikert intermediate arm I have right now fits a little better than the old sleeves I was using.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Dana Williams said:


> I'm 5'4. Its really hard to find a sleeve that fits a girl's arm. I use to get massive brusing because the cuff would jam into my arm on every catch. The schweikert intermediate arm I have right now fits a little better than the old sleeves I was using.


Hey Dana

Props on getting out there and trying to learn. Jeff is lucky that motion pictures hadn't been invented, way back when he started to decoy 

Hard Dog used to have a shorty sleeve that might be a better fit for you if you can find one?


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

It's cool you're doing the work Dana. I think it gives a new found appreciation and respect for the work that others do. Watching and doing are completely different experiences. Hell, you should have seen me a few weeks ago trying to drive up the TDs dog with this big ass tug. Apparently, I'm not that coordinated?

I hit myself in the face with the leash at least twice, wrapped it around my neck once, and swung the tug into the TDs chest at another point. Yep, I looked like a tool - felt like one too

Jeff that Frankenstein / Eddie Van Halen helper work you posted was pretty funny.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I was wondering if anyone would see the resemblances I was seeing.

I was enjoying the mullet. That dog would not be easy to catch. The mullet just made it a better overall watch for those of us that always wondered what that haircut was all about.

He would have to be about 3 feet shorter to really look like Eddie. : )


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Props on getting out there and trying to learn. Jeff is lucky that motion pictures hadn't been invented, way back when he started to decoy 

I wish they did have cameras back then, I was smooth as butter from the start. Catching with a sleeve is retarded easy. I watch people **** it up and just KNOW they never made the team. Probably the biggest reason decoys are lame is that they do not come from team sports. Try to tell one what they are doing wrong down here and they act like they are God or something, and then get all butt hurt and won't train with you.....right Tim ???


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Dana. Have you tryed the Short gappay Sleeve. They have one "normal" sleeve but with a short underarm part. So the sleeve get pretty mutsh smaler. 
I think Euro Joe have a short one to.


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## chris haynie (Sep 15, 2009)

thanks ya'll. this turned into a very helpful and informative thread. 

i am starting to go out to the clubs in my area. i will be at one this weekend and at a different club next weekend. I will visit two more next month to get an idea of which one i like the best and which club i will work bet with. 

thanks for all the helpful media!

to all who have said video learning is limited: i understand this and thank you for your advice. . I wanted to learn a lot about these subject before going to more clubs so I can be an informed guest. I'd rather already have a good idea of whats going on when i visit than to show up uniformed and unprepared. 

I am looking forward to finding the best club for me and learning to catch and work some dogs soon. 

re: decoys and team sports. Jeff mentioned something i noticed over the last couple weeks. 

the few clubs i have visited i have noticed a total team sport work ethic and training mode. the handler, TD and decoy were all working together to get the dog to progress. it was very interesting to me as I had, months ago, conceived the notion that dog sports where a team thing between just the handler and the dog. after seeing some training sessions it became readily apparent that there really is a whole team of people who are working the dog...the handler might be the one controlling and directing the dog but it seemed like in the clubs that worked well everyone knew their position on the team and played it well.


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## Mario Fernandez (Jun 21, 2008)

A nice video my buddy sent. 

http://shkola-orlova.ru/view/55525f3e6598296f26635a45ff8925b0.xhtml


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## Tim Lynam (Jun 12, 2009)

Chris,

Jeff makes a valid point. I've coined the phrase "Training Triangle." The TD, Handler and Decoy discuss what is to transpire and do it. The TD dictates what is to happen and is the third set of eyes watching what transpires. It is a team effort. Please and thank you's are for after training. If the handler or decoy disagrees with the plan, it is discussed after the session. It's a rare club that has that respect and understanding of each other. No one person is more important than the others. All agree to focus on the dog. It works.

Jeff,

As for decoys thinking they are god...

When was the last time you saw a prospective decoy have an "Intake Interview?" Where the conditions of being a decoy are laid out in no uncertain terms. Where it is made clear to them just how serious the work is? That it is a team effort. How about the last time a decoy was thrown out of a club for being an insufferable assh*le? Never, would be my guess. I've seen the situation you describe, ESPECIALLY when the TD is not a decoy themselves. The decoy has no respect because they feel no one can walk in their shoes... Even if one of the handlers is also a decoy, the decoy won't listen to them because they are just a dumb handler. 

Clubs need decoys. ANYONE who puts on the sleeve or suit will do, in some clubs. Just like the standards Handlers are held to. Heck, they are a dime a dozen in the dumb ass department. Rare is the person who actually WANTS to decoy on a regular basis! When a club actually finds that person they don't want them to quit. Hence, the decoy ego grows. The Training Triangle breaks down. Training becomes a royal pain... The team suffers.

Finding a person to decoy that understands the scenario of "As a team training, we all win on the trial field" is rare indeed Jeff.


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## chris haynie (Sep 15, 2009)

Mario Fernandez said:


> A nice video my buddy sent.
> 
> http://shkola-orlova.ru/view/55525f3e6598296f26635a45ff8925b0.xhtml


i'm a total newb but it looked to me more like he was trying to punch the dog than get the stick up. i would think that getting that close to the dogs face when moving the stick arm up is a big mistake. he got lucky that it wasn't worse.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Chris if you are looking to bust into helper work, how many clubs will let a newbie just walk in and catch?
Are you looking into SCH or any venue? Have they also asked to see your handler skills? 

I want someone who can handle a dog and the direction given. The last thing you need is a dog bounding towards the decoy or out the door after another dog. Then in your discovery mode, what has been the attitude of the members and nonmembers?

The greatest test for any decoy is to simply show how you can work a dog and puppy in prey, then defense, then some form of fight drive. In the suit, I want to see motion and not all over and on top of the dog. ACTING a key to building good dogs in many venues. Handlers who can't hold a leash, take or follow simple direction, or forget simple steps in a training scenario will kill a day's training session. JMO


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## Kris Finison (Nov 26, 2007)

On our club we generally refer to a "dirty biter" not only as the dog who give a hello tag when coming around the blind for a revere/ bark and hold but also one who takes another quick bite just after being told to out, or munching around on the sleeve for their own satisfaction.

In short, it's basically when they decide to bite when they know they're not supposed to.


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## Mike Burke (Jan 28, 2007)

Just like Mario wrote...

You live in Va.... go see Armin Winkler. Go to Schutzhundvillage.com to get in contact with him. One of the best teaching helpers there is.

Good Luck.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I don't think just a "bad" decoy will encourage a "dirty" bite.

If the dog has been "brought up" with a competent AND strongminded decoy, it's possible that a dog will chance a bite at a good decoy, but less strongminded one.

Have experienced this.

That's why I always feel, you can learn the game but you can't always play it if you haven't got what it takes genetically - works for humans, too.


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## Greg Leavitt (Aug 31, 2006)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I don't think just a "bad" decoy will encourage a "dirty" bite.
> 
> If the dog has been "brought up" with a competent AND strongminded decoy, it's possible that a dog will chance a bite at a good decoy, but less strongminded one.
> 
> ...


I agree with Gillian. I am a passable helper, but have good presence in the blind, and am a pretty damn big dude on top of that at 6"6' 260lbs and I still have dogs that try and take a cheap shot especially if they think they can get away with it.


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