# bloodest :liver high, but why?



## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

Need suggestions/help! A friend of mine has a Briard female. She got her second hand, she is just figuring out what is all going on with her. There are some behavior problems but nothing too serious. In general it is just lack of exposure and guidance in her life. Medically there are some eye issues that are treated ( some changes in the (cornea)that are supposedly caused by an autoimmune thing- but not pannus I know the symptoms!). A trip to the chiro revealed that the hips were locked up and the blood test revealed that the liver is too high. Does anybody have an idea, why the liver could be high, no obvious cause as of now. or could all three be related? Any disease or parasite caused disease that causes this?


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Hi Kat

I don't think that anyone can give you a satisfactory answer on here, unless one of the members is a veterinary surgeon.

Kidney insufficiency could be a reason and I seem to remember thaz Zürich University Clinic released a study on this for Briards but this is just grabbing at a straw.

You said:
_A trip to the chiro revealed that the hips were locked up and the blood test revealed that the liver is too high. Does anybody have an idea, why the liver could be high, no obvious cause as of now. or could all three be related? Any disease or parasite caused disease that causes this? 
_

What did the Chiropodist's report state and what are "locked hips"?? (in German please)
He must have given a report verbally or written.

How old is the dog? Does it have spinal issues?


Here is a link that could be useful:

http://www.idexx.de/pdf/de_de/smallanimal/education/client-education/du_liver-diagnostics-1_de.pdf


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

Hello
Thank you, we are not looking for a diagnosis though... 
We are reaching for straws, since there are no other symptoms...
Dog is about two years old. No spinal issues! dog is very active. she asked me also because the dog lived in Canada for a year or so and wanted to double check if there is nothing over here that the German Vets might not think of since it is not common.

the German from the chiro what I got written from her: Huefte bewegt sich nicht frei, hebt die Hinterhand nicht normal/richtig


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Hi Kate

I am really wondering what the vet said who diagnosed "high liver rate"?? at 2 years old - or less.

The hips do not sound good, i.e. a dog sport with "jumps" would not be good. However, each hip dysplasia tells its own story - are the muscles good, then the dog has a good chance of a fairly normal life, sport apart sometimes.

It is difficult to tell what you are really asking of this forum.


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

For the hips we just hope it's a blockage not HD, but I bet she'll check into that further.

she asked for help since no vet could give her an answer,yet! she is currently testing for common tick borne diseases in Germany. she asked me to think about diseases that could elevate all liver rates and leave everything else in the normal range. 
think this is why they pushed on with tick borne tests. 
mainly she is asking I think and so am I if there is any diseases out here that could cause this a German vet might not think of cause it is not typical.
I ran into that the other way round with pannus. While common here-it's not that common in Germany. why -I don't know... so in Germany it's not really on the radar...

I am trying to collect suggestions that could cause this, so she can on her and rule them out or not....
if that makes sense...


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

http://www.zecke.ch/html/borreliose.html


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## Gerald Guay (Jun 15, 2010)

Maybe this is worth looking at:

http://http://www.petmd.com/dog/conditions/endocrine/c_dg_hepatotoxins


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

can you repost this link, it says it can't be displayed...


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## Gerald Guay (Jun 15, 2010)

Try this link:

http://www.petmd.com/dog/conditions/endocrine/c_dg_hepatotoxins


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

Thank you that works!!!


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## Jon Howard (Jun 26, 2012)

You're gonna need more info about the liver enzymes that are elevated so it can be determined whats going on. The enzymes with regard to liver are bilirubin, AST, ALT, GGT, ALP. The elevations of each one of these will tell you what part of the liver is damaged then you can work out a possible reason.
The vet can hypothesise what is likely to have caused these elevations based on clinical history or the specific enzyme that is elevated.
The above liver enzymes are standard on comprehensive blood biochem tests. So 'liver to high' ain't gonna cut it to determine whats going on.
If she really wants to know whats causing it she's gonna have to spend some money and visit a medicine specialist if the vet that did the test can't interpret it. 

Further workup may be needed like liver biopsy or CT, MRI


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

all tick borne diseases tested negative....
ALT, AST, GLDH und Bilirubin high, way out of normal range.
kidney, pancreas , muscle all O.K.
high: MCHC.
too low: Thrombozyten.(blood platelets)
Im Differential blood count high: Eosinophile, Monozyten, Eosinophile absolut.
Der T4 thyroid, barely within normal .
will be further investigated.
ultrasound planned for the liver.

autoimmune was not diagnosed , was guessed by the optometry vet... so this is still open also.

Mainly again we are trying to figure guesses, not diagnoses... diseases in Germany are different then here. So we try to cover all bases cause right now nothing makes sense. Suggestions will be taken and checked.
Sometimes someone has a similar case and can give a hint in the right direction...


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## Jon Howard (Jun 26, 2012)

Kat Hunsecker said:


> all tick borne diseases tested negative....
> ALT, AST, GLDH und Bilirubin high, way out of normal range.
> kidney, pancreas , muscle all O.K.
> high: MCHC.
> ...



Blood results show an acute necrosis of the liver or hepatits - where Im from this is indication of ingestion of a hepatotoxin. The low platelet count is showing that the liver has been affected enough for it to stop producing clotting factors.
Common hepatotoxins are prescription medications, antifreeze, cycad palms, some species of wasps/ants.
I would be checking whether the dog has had access to any chemicals or above the last week.
Could also be chronic exposure to low levels of a toxin but with liver enzymes that high for a long time the dog would have to start looking pretty sick.


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## Jon Howard (Jun 26, 2012)

Sorry didn't read the blood count. 
This could be high from parasite migration through the liver causing inflammation and hepatitis.
Could also be unrelated to liver and just have a parasite load.


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

Thank you for the suggestions.. 
Need to ask about parasite load, are you talking parasite as in very general aka could be bacteria/virus , worms etc or the common use as in worms or something???

I'll pass all this on! I don't think there was any access to anything poisonous ... but I think you ruled that out yourself right?


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## Jon Howard (Jun 26, 2012)

Kat Hunsecker said:


> Thank you for the suggestions..
> Need to ask about parasite load, are you talking parasite as in very general aka could be bacteria/virus , worms etc or the common use as in worms or something???
> 
> I'll pass all this on! I don't think there was any access to anything poisonous ... but I think you ruled that out yourself right?



Parasites as in worms. Bacteria or virus would show an elevation in other white blood cells.

You would have to rule out an ingested toxin yourself. 90% of the time you never work out what it is and can only assume. It's a young dog still so very high chance as they tend to explore with their mouths.

Get another blood test to see if it is acute liver necrosis in which liver enzymes will start dropping.
If they are still elevated then you are looking at a hepatitis. Or the toxin has caused too much damage for the liver to recover in which the dog would be very sick and not be around for too much longer.

The liver is one of the only organs that can regenerate. It turns its cells over about every six months

The hepatitis could be from a chronic form of infectious canine hepatitis. This is usually vaccinated against in core vaccinations so not likely. You say the dog is from Canada and this virus is carried by wolves, foxes and coyotes etc so could be possible. My idea of Canada is wolves and bears running round forests and stuff so seems possible but probably very unlikely.


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## Meg O'Donovan (Aug 20, 2012)

Jon Howard said:


> The hepatitis could be from a chronic form of infectious canine hepatitis. This is usually vaccinated against in core vaccinations so not likely. You say the dog is from Canada and this virus is carried by wolves, foxes and coyotes etc so could be possible. My idea of Canada is wolves and bears running round forests and stuff so seems possible but probably very unlikely.


How would this spread from wild canids to dogs? By eating scat? By eating bones scavenged earlier by wild canids? By transmission of fluids? Other? We spend a lot of time in the (Canadian) bush, so it would be nice to know if there are precautions to minimize risk. Foxes & coyotes are common to see, wolves less so.


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## Gerald Guay (Jun 15, 2010)

Meg, just as a side note to this discussion and do not want to throw this thread in another tangent.

We live in a area with lots of coyote, fox, raccoon, bear, moose, deer, badger and occasional wolf and lynx scat and have never had a sick dog in 45 years. Only our beagles picked up tape worm when they would catch hare. All our dogs eat deer and moose scat. Dogs do not seem drawn to eat predator scat. That my experience so far. 

GG


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## Jon Howard (Jun 26, 2012)

Meg O'Donovan said:


> How would this spread from wild canids to dogs? By eating scat? By eating bones scavenged earlier by wild canids? By transmission of fluids? Other? We spend a lot of time in the (Canadian) bush, so it would be nice to know if there are precautions to minimize risk. Foxes & coyotes are common to see, wolves less so.



Scats, saliva and urine. As I said its a core vaccination and if it's been done then there is nothing to worry about.

I have never actually seen a case of it where I'm from as most dogs we see are vaccinated.

Back to the original post, I kinda pulled infectious canine hepatitis out as a very left field possibility but one of the clinical signs is 'corneal clouding (“blue eye”) result from immune-complex reactions after recovery from acute or subclinical disease'
Maybe not so left field after all.


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

Thanks for all the involvement... 
This case is getting weirder by the day!
I have to correct the age, she is more like three, so my apologies for that!

My friend is unearthing things about this dog that is awful!
Looks like the old owner only is telling lies, lies lies!

Besides the fact that the dog was evidently just a thing in the house, and not very nicely treated a trip to the prior vet revealed she was supposed to be bred. The hip x rays are fine, there was a blood test done in 2011 but this is of course way to far back to make sense of the situation now.
While my friend got the impression the faster the dog is gone the better, she heard so many different stories around the dog- horrible... what that dog had been through!

More research in the environment of the dog- and we know she has been pushed around a lot!!! Some unstable mental stuff going on in the house so toxins might not be far of as we now have to fear there was some abuse with medication!

Some behavior things are surfacing that show that this dog had a fairly poor social life within the family. Insecure in some ways, little drive to interact with the human or ask for involvement with he human. Guess is she never was really interacted with or just engaged in an activity together. 

very aggravating the whole thing!!!
The next tests are scheduled for beginning of the next week. Keep your fingers crossed that we find out more!

As to the contraction of things from wild animals , she had her basic immunizations... 
shouldn't be an issue....one hopes!

I never had an issue with my girls with running around and eating droppings or scat from wild animals and then getting something- they never even got worms from that!


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

another thing that was suggested by the Vet that was taken care of the Briard in 2011, she had two Briards in that were suffering ( and I have to literally translate it- I do not know the technical term for it) Copperretainment disease, that has similar symptoms. anybody know more about this or has a dog with it?


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## Jon Howard (Jun 26, 2012)

Kat Hunsecker said:


> another thing that was suggested by the Vet that was taken care of the Briard in 2011, she had two Briards in that were suffering ( and I have to literally translate it- I do not know the technical term for it) Copperretainment disease, that has similar symptoms. anybody know more about this or has a dog with it?



Copper storage disease???
This is your liver disease. Genetic problem. Common in Dalmatians.
Euthanised a Dalmatian last month with this disease.

Liver biopsy the way to go. Ultrasound will tell you nothing.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I believe it's common in West Highland Terriers also. 

Some of the Dalmation people went outside the breed lines (with AKC permission) and crossed with English Pointers in order to eliminate/avoid the issue. That's been some yrs ago.


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

ultrasound revealed nothing.
But the thyroid is being treated it was low normal, but may have caused some issues. 
After several specialists no real conclusion on the liver issue. But over vaccination that did happen and may be a cause! 
For now there will be detox and in several weeks a blood check again for thyroid and liver!!!

thank you for all the suggestions and concerns... 
Keep your fingers crossed!!!


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

Little update: thyroid running normal now, hoping it just needed kick start. 
Liver levels went down to normal. 
diet was adjusted to help the system. all lights green now...
thanks again for all the input.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Glad to hear that things appear to be back on track. Thanks for the update!


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