# A-Litter @ 14 weeks



## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Sorry these aren't the best photos; when I let them out, I can't take pictures because they are too busy ripping off my clothes! 






































If I can get some help, I am going to try and take better, individual, pics of them later in the week, but it's just hard getting someone to come over and help me. 

These guys have drive out the wazoo; too bad the only calls I've gotten so far have been from people just wanting a family pet. If they only knew... :lol:


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

At what age do you seperate them?


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Have any info/Pic's of the Sire/Dam?


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Well they would have been separated at 12 weeks, except that all my kennels are currently full. :-?


Edward, pedigree: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/pedigree/658027.html


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## Shane Woodlief (Sep 9, 2009)

Why are you keeping them so long? Are you not selling them to the public?


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Kristen Cabe said:


> Well they would have been separated at 12 weeks, except that all my kennels are currently full. :-?
> 
> 
> Edward, pedigree: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/pedigree/658027.html


What and where do you hope these pups to end up doing as finished adults?


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Shane, as I said, the only inquiries I've gotten have been from pet people. I'm not selling them to pet homes.


Harry, I believe they'd be best suited in experienced homes where they are going to be worked in Schutzhund or a similar type sport, or as police K9's. They all love 'the fight.' The more you push them away and get rough with them, the more they bring it back to you. The only thing that concerns me about sending them to PD's is the fact that they likely will not be kept on a raw diet, and will be vaccinated to the hilt and given chemical dewormers and such. To date, they have been naturally reared and I'd prefer that they stay that way, but just finding working homes is difficult enough. :?


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## Shane Woodlief (Sep 9, 2009)

Sorry I did not see that part in your post.


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## shawn murace (Feb 20, 2007)

Have you tried posting videos? Normally that'll get some interest stirred. In all reality though I think most working dog folks will probably not seriously inquire due to the lack of titles on the parents. Videos in this case might be best to see the drive of the pups on the rag.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Kristen Cabe said:


> Shane, as I said, the only inquiries I've gotten have been from pet people. I'm not selling them to pet homes.
> 
> 
> Harry, I believe they'd be best suited in experienced homes where they are going to be worked in Schutzhund or a similar type sport, or as police K9's. They all love 'the fight.' The more you push them away and get rough with them, the more they bring it back to you. The only thing that concerns me about sending them to PD's is the fact that they likely will not be kept on a raw diet, and will be vaccinated to the hilt and given chemical dewormers and such. To date, they have been naturally reared and I'd prefer that they stay that way, but just finding working homes is difficult enough. :?


Kristen don't take this the wrong way just asking OK. Heres my question are they doing this working by themselves or are they feeding off each other in pack mentality for the fight and safety security of each other. If you haven't I would start working them as individuals and see who really has it and who doesn't. Just a suggestion if you haven't yet. Only reason I ask is because they live together as a litter still. Good luck with them.


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## Josh Smith (Jan 14, 2009)

Kristen Cabe said:


> Shane, as I said, the only inquiries I've gotten have been from pet people. I'm not selling them to pet homes.
> 
> 
> Harry, I believe they'd be best suited in experienced homes where they are going to be worked in Schutzhund or a similar type sport, or as police K9's. They all love 'the fight.' The more you push them away and get rough with them, the more they bring it back to you. The only thing that concerns me about sending them to PD's is the fact that they likely will not be kept on a raw diet, and will be vaccinated to the hilt and given chemical dewormers and such. To date, they have been naturally reared and I'd prefer that they stay that way, but just finding working homes is difficult enough. :?



I hope you have plenty of cash to feed and provide for those pups for a long time because your standards are wacked out. What makes you think you should be breeding dogs?


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## Shane Woodlief (Sep 9, 2009)

Kristen Cabe said:


> Shane, as I said, the only inquiries I've gotten have been from pet people. I'm not selling them to pet homes.
> 
> 
> Harry, I believe they'd be best suited in experienced homes where they are going to be worked in Schutzhund or a similar type sport, or as police K9's. They all love 'the fight.' The more you push them away and get rough with them, the more they bring it back to you. The only thing that concerns me about sending them to PD's is the fact that they likely will not be kept on a raw diet, and will be vaccinated to the hilt and given chemical dewormers and such. To date, they have been naturally reared and I'd prefer that they stay that way, but just finding working homes is difficult enough. :?


I sent you a PM earlier asking about the lines they are out of and the price you are asking. I was asking because I have not see you advertise it. Also are the parents titled etc? 

Are you insisting that the dogs be feed raw as well? Just curious.

I agree with the earlier comment about video's of the pups.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Excuse me, Josh? Because I believe in natural rearing, I should not be breeding? That's ****ed up!


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## Josh Smith (Jan 14, 2009)

Kristen Cabe said:


> Excuse me, Josh? Because I believe in natural rearing, I should not be breeding? That's ****ed up!


Um, no. I do believe that you drank a little too much of the the natural rearing cool-aid but what I really want to know is why do you think you should be breeding???

Only one of the parents has a title and that is the most basic one available. You have 14 week old puppies that are living together and you yourself said "but it's just hard getting someone to come over and help me." which makes me wonder what if any socialization you have given them. You have 2 weeks left in their prime development period and you can't even take them out of a kennel by yourself???

"The only thing that concerns me about sending them to PD's is the fact that they likely will not be kept on a raw diet, and will be vaccinated to the hilt and given chemical dewormers and such"

I imagine police department do those basic things to protect the health of the dog. You just sound a bit over the top in all of your posts and refusal to sell potentially pet quality dogs to pet homes just makes you look foolish. 

I only posted this because it pissed me off to see someone breeding who doesn't appear to know what the hell they are doing. It is only going to hurt the dogs. Think hard before you progress to a b-litter.


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## Shane Woodlief (Sep 9, 2009)

Kristen I checked out your link and *"IF" *the information is up to date and accurate on the pedigree web site - my main question is why haven't the parents been titled before breeding the dogs? Again *if* the information is correct the with parents and grand parents - then there are three untitled dogs in the first and second generations. With GSD pedigrees that isn't good.


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## James Idi (Apr 19, 2009)

> Excuse me, Josh? Because I believe in natural rearing, I should not be breeding? That's ****ed up!


As a potential buyer of a sport / working dog, some of your actions and statements would throw up red flags that would not instill confidence in your competence as a breeder.

It doesn't seem like you put much thought into this litter, aside from simply HAVING the litter.

Edit: Will they find MONEY!?


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Ok. I will grant that I have not been very active on this board over the past few months, and a few of you are fairly new and do not know anything about me other than what's posted in this thread, so I will briefly try to address the concerns posed, while I have a couple of minutes to do so.

The bitch is a proven producer. This is not her first litter; it's just her first litter with my kennel name. Many of her offspring are actively working police dogs, with a few being worked in Schutzhund or similar venues, that I am aware of. It's been discussed time and time again - titles do not make the dog. Every helper she has been on has enjoyed working her. No need, IMO and the opinions of several others in the sport, to title her at her age - especially knowing she's a good producer.

Initially, I was going to breed to Aceofnike, but he was injured and was not available to be bred or collected when my bitch was ready, so his owner suggested Pan. He had imported the dog himself and Pan is owned by a friend of his. The bloodlines are very nice, so I agreed. He is going for his titles next month. 

As for socialization, the puppies have been out and about. It's not like they just sit in the kennel in the backyard 24/7. Good Lord. :roll: Also, nowhere did I state that I could not 'take them out of a kennel by [myself]'; I said that I could not get good PICTURES of them when I let them out because they were all over me. I need someone else to either deal w/them, or work the camera, to get pictures of them outside the kennel.

PS: Laika vom Ruhbachtal_ is_ apparently titled _and_ KKL'd (http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/126382/Laika vom Ruhbachtal/). I was not aware of that when I entered Pan in the Database.


My B-litter is coming up in the spring. My young female should be titled by then. http://vomwalnussbach.angelfire.com/planned_breedings.html :wink:


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

I find it funny that people get SO jacked up about titles. Ajay sired a litter and he is not titled, the bitch was not titled and 4 of the 8 are in working homes and doing really well actually. 1 that was sold as a pet, is doing well also. Have not heard back on the other 3. 

Ajay has drive up the wazoo.....prey and hunt drives are about equal. He could be titled, but I got him originally for SAR and he was trained for tracking and trailing for a long time before I got out of it and started Mondio. So we are on a slow road as far as that goes. 

I guess titles mean that the puppies will just automatically title when they reach trial age? No work necassary, they just automatically have it pre-programmed because sire and dam have been titled before? 

There are some SHIT dogs out there with titles. 

Kristen.....if you are doing this to better the breed, and raise good quality working dogs, then more power to you. At least you are not throwing shit together and hoping for the best.


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## Josh Smith (Jan 14, 2009)

I still question why you feel you should be breeding! You have an A-litter that is 14weeks old and don't appear to have any prospects on homes for them and you are already working on a B-litter? 

I am not that new to the board and while I don't post much have been reading the forum for the last few years. With everything I have read that you have posted and seeing the state of your first litter I would hope that you would rethink the whole breeding thing. 

Why are your breeding a B-litter? are you collecting dogs?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Carol Boche said:


> I find it funny that people get SO jacked up about titles. Ajay sired a litter and he is not titled, the bitch was not titled and 4 of the 8 are in working homes and doing really well actually. 1 that was sold as a pet, is doing well also. Have not heard back on the other 3.
> 
> Ajay has drive up the wazoo.....prey and hunt drives are about equal. He could be titled, but I got him originally for SAR and he was trained for tracking and trailing for a long time before I got out of it and started Mondio. So we are on a slow road as far as that goes.
> 
> ...


Hi Carol

"There are some SHIT dogs out there with titles."

Yeah but there are more SHIT dogs without titles 

Titles aren't the end all criteria for choosing a puppy, but they certainly should be considered. They are an independent evaluation of the parents. Some breeders that breed untitled dogs actually know their dogs and can produce nice working dogs. MOST people who breed untitled dogs are BYB's who don't have the interest or ability to title a dog. Buying a puppy from untitled parents if you are really knowledgeable about lines and reading/evaluating puppies is OK. Sadly most people fall for the breeders hype and BS or carefully edited videos of the parents "working" in the backyard :-(


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## Lamar Blackmor (Aug 1, 2010)

no matter how well editted the video you can always tell a pos is a pos. if the op wants to keep and raise the litter for the rest of their natural lifes then who care what she is breeding as long as she doesnt dump them in a sheltre or abandon them on the train trackd. if she have no space for her current litter to be separrated and then have another litter then she would be put in the shitforbrains bin.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Kristen Cabe said:


> Excuse me, Josh? Because I believe in natural rearing, I should not be breeding? That's ****ed up!
> ----------------------------------------------------
> Hominy Valley German Shepherd Rescue


Breeding good dogs really has nothing to do with titles and I don't concern myself with what or how someone else chooses to breed. We all have to start somewhere. What I do find facsinating is the tag line that accompanied the pictures. Seems a bit contradictory. I wouldn't be breeding and running rescue at the same time....but that is just me.


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## Josh Smith (Jan 14, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Breeding good dogs really has nothing to do with titles and I don't concern myself with what or how someone else chooses to breed. We all have to start somewhere. What I do find facsinating is the tag line that accompanied the pictures. Seems a bit contradictory. I wouldn't be breeding and running rescue at the same time....but that is just me.



Don, I wasn't bashing natural raising of dogs. You seem to be producing some very good hunting dogs that way. BUT, you are producing a very specific type of dog and know what you want. She is supposedly producing dogs for sport and le work but seems to be a bit clueless as to what she is doing. I agree that everyone has to start somewhere I just question whether some people should start at all.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Josh, I am not expressing an opinion about anthing that has been said. Just that I find it ironic that that this breeding may be adding to the rescues. Just strikes me as strange that someone that believes all dogs should be rescued is breeding. I just don't see how the recue mindset will ever be able to cull pos dogs since they save them every day. Todays potential dog buyers are so fickled about titles that breeding good dogs has largely gone by the wayside. Attempting to do what Kirsten is doing takes years of proving their stock before people are going to have trust in her dogs to the point they look her up.....as she is seeing right now. The best thing to do right now is to try and place the dog in someones hands that will work and prove them even if she has to give them to the right people. Even that isn't easy because, like my dogs in protection, they are not proven and no one wants to waste the time if they are not going to work out. It is hard to ask good money for unproven stock. I am getting a dale from very proven lines right now . The reality is the titles meant nothing to me because I have seen the attributes in the line that I like and none of those attributes had to do with the titles.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Breeding good dogs really has nothing to do with titles and I don't concern myself with what or how someone else chooses to breed. We all have to start somewhere.
> 
> 
> > What I do find facsinating is the tag line that accompanied the pictures. Seems a bit contradictory. I wouldn't be breeding and running rescue at the same time....but that is just me
> ...


This is the very point for me....plus, the young bitch aforementioned, is this the young bitch you were enquiring about force tracking or retrieve training so as she could be possibly titled prior to being bred to schedule. Stinks!


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Josh, I am not expressing an opinion about anthing that has been said. Just that I find it ironic that that this breeding may be adding to the rescues. Just strikes me as strange that someone that believes all dogs should be rescued is breeding. I just don't see how the recue mindset will ever be able to cull pos dogs since they save them every day. Todays potential dog buyers are so fickled about titles that breeding good dogs has largely gone by the wayside. Attempting to do what Kirsten is doing takes years of proving their stock before people are going to have trust in her dogs to the point they look her up.....as she is seeing right now. The best thing to do right now is to try and place the dog in someones hands that will work and prove them even if she has to give them to the right people. Even that isn't easy because, like my dogs in protection, they are not proven and no one wants to waste the time if they are not going to work out. It is hard to ask good money for unproven stock. I am getting a dale from very proven lines right now . The reality is the titles meant nothing to me because I have seen the attributes in the line that I like and none of those attributes had to do with the titles.


To be honest, most folks who are serious about sport are looking for young dogs, not puppies. Ideally a 12 to 18 month old dog because they want to be able to know the dog has good hips/elbows/spine and also has the correct drives for the job, but it hasn't been screwed up too badly by that point. Puppies are more for people who want to compete, but it's not the primary reason they have the dog, though it may be the primary reason they have that particular breed.

Many well established breeders are willing to work a deal to get a pup of theirs into a credible trainer/handler's hands. These days it's not hard to get a pup from a top breeding for close to a song if you are a good enough singer. I know people who have bred litters currently that 4 years ago would have commanded top prices and been sold before they were born (deservedly) that are having a hard time finding appropriate homes now.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Well, I will just speak from the perspective of someone who WILL be looking for a puppy (or a young dog) in a year or two. The next cadaver dog. Current dog is 7.5.

What Kristen does with her dogs is her business, though......not mine so I am just saying....I am a working dog customer who is less than 2 hours drive away......

Just rambling on what I as a buyer would be going through....

May want a puppy though I am leaning towards an older puppy who at least has had prelims. There are reasons I have interest in going the puppy route....but that is neither here nor there. 

I would want some sort of proven reputation of the parents (working certs or sports titles) as well as the hip/elbow/back and other health clearances. Would want a breeder with a known good reputation and track record. 

Would probably steer more towards a dog with Czech or a Czech/WGR blend in it than West German Working alone...

Definitely not a coated dog. Not in the South. Not in the woods. Not in the water. I could give a rats ass if it pink with yellow polka dots though.

I would expect $800-$1200 for the right pup, if I go that route and a help in finding another home if the pup does not work out. My biggest fear is an unhealthy pup. I have one with bad hips now and she was a great little worker...should have had her x-rayed at 6 months before I got too bonded with her. .I really don't want another mouth to feed. I get attached to the buggers. Damn. Don't mind gambling the money but not my heart.

But from all the above...still in the back of my mind that puppies are a crapshoot.

But I don't want anybody telling me I have to feed my dog a certain way and can't give it shots. FWIW a lot of working dog activities do require proof of immunization.


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## Sue DiCero (Sep 2, 2006)

Not always about the young dog for people serious about sport. Most of ones that go for the young dogs are handlers that are working dogs for their employers/ owners of the dogs.

I would consider Gabor serious and he focuses on puppy 1st. But, he looks long term with current dog he is working, where he is at, how the dog is physically/mentally, etc. He times when he gets a dog and when he starts working them.

He is working one dog seriously right now (Frodo - FCI and WUSV team this year) and is also training Griff for titling for competition. We try to look a few years out on what he will be doing. We have to figure the females in the equation for training and titling as well.


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

Gorgeous pups!!!! 

Titles don't make the dog. I am doing a breeding this coming spring, all things pending life. My boy will hopefully be titled by then but he may not be depending on my work schedule and life in general. I have a short wait list for pups off him from various people, all working homes. Just because he isn't titled doesn't mean jack crap to me, cause when you see him work, you understand why he is being bred. He comes from a litter with 2 other OFA EXCELLENT dogs and he is OFA GOOD. I haven't had the money and time last year to put into titling him a large part of it was spent on health testing him, this year will be different on that front though. I will be keeping a pup from it. The bitch that I'm breeding too will more than likely be titled, everything behind her is. Everything behind my dog is except his dam. 



> Many well established breeders are willing to work a deal to get a pup of theirs into a credible trainer/handler's hands. These days it's not hard to get a pup from a top breeding for close to a song if you are a good enough singer. I know people who have bred litters currently that 4 years ago would have commanded top prices and been sold before they were born (deservedly) that are having a hard time finding appropriate homes now.


This is SO true. I got my current dog for a song and a dance cause I was going to title him, health test him and gave his breeder breeding rights. She essentailly got to keep a stud dog without having to keep one. It works out great for both of us. I got him 3 years ago. 

Good Looking puppies. I'm not a fan of coaties but I love the little black one!!! If only time and money were more abundant here.


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## Jack Roberts (Sep 5, 2008)

Kristyn,

I do not see any problems with putting these pups in a good pet home, if someone is willing to work them. 

I do not always agree with trainer homes and a lot of dogs are screwed up by so called trainers. You only have to look what happened to Debbie's dog. I have heard of more than a couple of bad stories with so called trainers. I helped someone work with a dog that a trainer washed out but the trainer had just left the dog in a crate for six months. The dog was actually a decent dog. 

If someone is willing to put the effort and time into training a dog then you should be happy to home the dogs in these type of homes.

People just do not have the money to buy dogs right now. I am surprised when people pay 1200.00 dollars for pups. You can find a nice dog for 600-700 dollars and if you know someone even cheaper. 

I just do not think you should be so picky about a police dog or competition home. The pups are 14 weeks and will more than likely be in your kennel for months, if you demand these standards.


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## Jeff Threadgill (Jun 9, 2010)

MO, I dont give a **** about titles, show me what your dog (parents) can do.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Jeff Threadgill said:


> MO, I dont give a **** about titles, show me what your dog (parents) can do.


Thankyou Jeff, Nice to hear somebody else say they don't care about titles, I'm tired of people say my dog has this and this and this. who gives a shit, titles don't make your dog. I know plent of dogs that smoke a high end titled dog any day of the week.

At the same time I'm not bashing titles or sports either, but folks just because your dog has a title doesn't make your dog a bad ass JMO. Let me say this too " Or worth a shit to breed too ". Also know plenty of untitled dogs that pups were of the charts and also know of litters from titled parents that were complete shitbags.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Harry Keely said:


> Thankyou Jeff, Nice to hear somebody else say they don't care about titles, I'm tired of people say my dog has this and this and this. who gives a shit, titles don't make your dog. I know plent of dogs that smoke a high end titled dog any day of the week.
> 
> At the same time I'm not bashing titles or sports either, but folks just because your dog has a title doesn't make your dog a bad ass JMO. Let me say this too " Or worth a shit to breed too ". Also know plenty of untitled dogs that pups were of the charts and also know of litters from titled parents that were complete shitbags.


Harry

Titles are just ONE thing to look at when evaluating a dog/puppy. If you're good enough to read a puppy and choose the strongest/best of the litter then go with that. Most people aren't and need something to base a decision on. When I'm looking for a puppy, I pick a litter from good parents and see which puppy I feel a connection with and forget about all the
"tests"
Sport Titles are like a College degree. They don't mean you're
smarter/better then the other guy/dog. It just means you're teachable and took the time and effort to demonstrate it.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Harry
> 
> Titles are just ONE thing to look at when evaluating a dog/puppy. If you're good enough to read a puppy and choose the strongest/best of the litter then go with that. Most people aren't and need something to base a decision on. When I'm looking for a puppy, I pick a litter from good parents and see which puppy I feel a connection with and forget about all the
> "tests"
> ...


Thats what my degree tells me? Damn, I thought it meant wasted time and testing my patience!!!!!


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

If nothing else, titles tell one that a dog has competed in something and had a better trainer than the next dog.


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## Julie Blanding (Mar 12, 2008)

Titles don't make a dog. Trialing is stressful for the handler and dog. More often than not, you don't get to see how a dog handles pressure until you title the dog. It shows up in training, not at the trial.
Just sayin'... People that train with no set goal, don't really have to push their dogs and make them conform to a program. To me, it's almost about how much stress they dog can deal with in order to be ready to trail..

For example: If you have a dog that kicks butt in protection, nothing can shake them, super gripping, power, etc. But won't retrieve. Then you have to put the force on the dog.. what else is going to shake loose?... You don't know til you try it. Most people would just keep training this dog in protection and not worry about the other 'stuff' because they don't have to...

Also, if titling was so easy, why aren't there more titled dogs? Again, just sayin'
Show me a dog that kicks butt in all aspects of training and has titles... 

Julie


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

> Also, if titling was so easy, why aren't there more titled dogs? Again, just sayin'
> Show me a dog that kicks butt in all aspects of training and has titles...


Maybe the lack of facilities, money, time, and qualified trainers? Or possibly, the good dogs don't get bred because they have no titles. The result is titled dogs that only had one good day in their life get bred to. It is much like having AKC papers. People aren't really buy the dog o lot of times....the main concern is "Are they AKC registered?' It is all status for many people....same as titles even if the dog never goes anywhere....they can brag an the ancestry.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

I believe titles do mean something over a dog without titles. How many dogs have a hard time with tracking for instance. If both parents have tracking titles, especially FH1 and 2's then to me that means something. I've also seen dogs obtain a SchH 3 that should not be breed. I would also look at the trials entered, regionals or nationals would give more weight over club trials.

I would think the idea situation would be to see dogs in both training and trialing. From there you could see a lot in the dogs.


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## Niomi Smith (Jan 15, 2010)

I am new to the training and working dog world having only trained at a competitive level for 5 years.

When I was looking for a puppy, the things I looked for in the sire/dam and the lines was versatility. I saw both parents work in person, but I also saw the various titles from ScH, Agility and OB. The titles weren't my deciding factor, but they made the decision easier. In my opinion, having a dog titled in only one area is limiting - I guess what I mean is that it will only show you certain aspects of your dog if all you train for or trail in is ScH, or Mondio, or whatever. The more versatile you get with your training and trials, the more aspects you are going to see in that dog, good or bad.

What I was looking for was a social dog, high drive, high energy, and highly biddable. When I looked at the titles in the various areas that is what told me to take a closer look at the dogs and the breeding. Again, I didn't decide on the breeding because of the titles, but I used them as a tool in my decision.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I am picking up a pup at the airport today. Here is his pedigree. I am not a member of this pedigree site so it shows none of the titles.....but they are there. The purpose of the pup is to add new genes to my line. I have been looking for several years and don't take this lightly. I have been in this breed for a few years and don't have to see titles as I am familiar with the dogs. I can see where titles tell novices something about a dog, don't get me wrong. It just isn't the whole enchilada and I have seen many people that bought titles and got crap dogs. The selling factor for me was the dog dominance in the males of this line. Shows me extreme confidence of the dogs. Titles are pretty much window dressing if I want to sell them to a novice audience.

http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-detai...nny-von-Thekla


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Jack Roberts said:


> I do not see any problems with putting these pups in a good pet home, if someone is willing to work them. ... I just do not think you should be so picky about a police dog or competition home.


I think maybe semantics are getting in the way here. When I say 'pet home,' I'm talking about people who have no interest in working the dog at all, and just want a family companion that is going to be happy lounging around the house all day waiting for them to come home from work, and then maybe go for a walk around the block or a 5min fetch session in the back yard, then lie on the couch with them all evening watching TV. That, to me, is a pet home, and I place most of the rescue dogs into those kinds of homes. These puppies are simply not suitable for that kind of home; they literally would destroy the person's home for lack of an outlet!

I'm not being so picky that I would _only_ sell to a trainer or PD. I simply said that based on the bitch's track record as far as what she produces, and what I see in this litter (based on my experience with her previous litter that I whelped and raised - I was pretty damn spot on with what I believed each individual puppy was going to end up being like with that litter, newbie or not), that this litter should be well suited for that kind of venue. I would sell to anyone who is going to work the dog, whether they are interested in Schutzhund (club level is perfectly fine!), what Nancy does, or even AKC events like tracking, obedience, agility, or even herding (there is an excellent place an hour southeast of here for that, and I've taken the dam down there several times myself, MOF). All I really ask is that the dog be worked.

As for the whole thing about diet and vaccines, that's ultimately up to the new owners; I can't force anyone to continue that route, although yes, I _would_ prefer that they remain on raw and chemical/vax-free. I'm not going to lie and say I wouldn't. I've invested a LOT of money and time into raising them that way; it'll be a shame if it's all been for nothing (ie: they go to a home where they're put on kibble, every manner of flea/tick/worm meds, and vaccinated for everything under the sun).


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Harry
> 
> Titles are just ONE thing to look at when evaluating a dog/puppy. If you're good enough to read a puppy and choose the strongest/best of the litter then go with that. Most people aren't and need something to base a decision on. When I'm looking for a puppy, I pick a litter from good parents and see which puppy I feel a connection with and forget about all the
> "tests"
> ...


Titles or no titles you can breed the best two title or best two untitled dogs and end up with a litter of little shitty nerve bags. Or you could end up with a cherry on top of that champ out of so so parents, you never know what you have to you have it thats why everybody says puppies are a crap shoot. Of course you always want to pick from nice strong parents to help even out the odds but still your rolling the dice.


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