# How would you have handled this situation?



## Alegria Cebreco (Jul 25, 2007)

How would you have handled this? Here's the situation. My friend was over with her 18 month old GSD and Rade my 7 month old male GSD, and we were in the backyard. My friend reached down to grab a toy off the ground and Rade went for it. She got scared and started swinging the toy around and making very quick movements. I guess that triggered his prey drive and he was determined to get the toy. He missed the toy and got my friends elbow, natural instinct kicked in, as she *thought* he was being agressive, and she attempted to kick him and that move just pissed him off. He swung around to her other side and latched on. I had to pry him off of her. 

Besides the quick movements being a stupid thing, is there anything else that could have prevented this incident from happening? How should Rade have been corrected (if any should have been given)? what kind of dog personality/temperament wise would you classify him as?
And what steps can I take to ensure I have full control over him, from this point on?


BTW, Rade comes from Czech lines, and has a very high prey drive. Completely different than my friends American pet lines shepherd.


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## Justin Eimer (Oct 17, 2006)

Alegria Cebreco said:


> How would you have handled this? Here's the situation. My friend was over with her 18 month old GSD and Rade my 7 month old male GSD, and we were in the backyard. My friend reached down to grab a toy off the ground and Rade went for it. She got scared and started swinging the toy around and making very quick movements. I guess that triggered his prey drive and he was determined to get the toy. He missed the toy and got my friends elbow, natural instinct kicked in, as she *thought* he was being agressive, and she attempted to kick him and that move just pissed him off. He swung around to her other side and latched on. I had to pry him off of her.
> 
> Besides the quick movements being a stupid thing, is there anything else that could have prevented this incident from happening? How should Rade have been corrected (if any should have been given)? what kind of dog personality/temperament wise would you classify him as?
> And what steps can I take to ensure I have full control over him, from this point on?
> ...


Alegria~
I don't know that there is a right or wrong answer here. It seems to me that you did the right thing by "prying him off" of your friend. Could he have been corrected? Sure he could have been corrected, but for what exactly? Here is, as you described him, a high drive Czech line Shepherd (male pup probably full of piss and vinegar), who went after his toy (possession is a good trait in a working dog) when someone tried to pick it up. This friend of yours should know better (if she has been around working/sport dogs) than to freak out (if not, I'll bet that she will drop Rade's ball sooner and won't kick him again). She probably should have just dropped his ball instead of making/turning the situation into a game of keep away and kicking Rade into prey drive. I don't think that from what you described, Rade was intentionally trying to bite your friend. From my limited experience with Czech line Shepherds, I believe that they tend to have a touch more defense drive than many of the Shepherds from other lines. It sounds to me that when your friend went into self preservation mode and tried to defend herself by kicking at your pup, you both witnessed him going into the same mode and exhibit his own defense drive. When this happened, he most likely intended on biting her. If you want to supress his possesiveness or give him a lesson in manners so that he will respect those who reach for his ball/toy, that is entirely up to you. Just be cautious in doing so, because you may supress a trait that you may want him to take advantage of later, depending on what it is you intend on doing with him. I don't believe that you have a major poblem, just ask your friend to leave Rade's toys alone. LOL. Another suggestion would be to have Rade on a line and not loose, so that you have the ability to deliver a proper correction if he is exhibiting a trait or behavior that you deem innapropriate. Hope this helps. ~Justin
PS~ I totally missed that your friend had an American Line Shepherd... Just educate her on proper behavior around dogs with higher drives.:lol: ;-)


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## Johan Dekinder (Sep 17, 2007)

Imo very natural reaction of a pup with high drives as Justin said; if my 'friend' would kick or even try to kick my puppy for that reason I would kick him back  Unacceptable and for the same reason could ruin the character of a 'less stable pup'...


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## Justin Eimer (Oct 17, 2006)

Johan Dekinder said:


> Imo very natural reaction of a pup with high drives as Justin said; if my 'friend' would kick or even try to kick my puppy for that reason I would kick him back  Unacceptable and for the same reason could ruin the character of a 'less stable pup'...


Johan~
I agree 100%. Some people just need to be educated... or thrown a beating... whatever works. :smile: ~Justin


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## Sabine von Knobloch (Sep 24, 2007)

Justin,

I think, you are right to 100 %. In the first place the dog probably thought, there was a nice game of chasing and running coming up - a very natural behavior. Swinging the toy around and quick movements are exactly what makes a dog (even with less prey drive than a good working shepherd!) go! Getting the elbow simply was kind of an "accident" because of lack of coordination (can you say it like this?). 

I don't think, any of MY dogs would have understood the following attack - both of them would have defended themselves - and their toy... 

And, to be honest, this is what they would be supposed to do - although they like people on the whole.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Tell your ditz of a friend to throw the damn ball instead of keeping it away from the dog :roll: Dropping the ball would have worked too.


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## Hil Harrison (Mar 29, 2006)

Once in the high prey drive I dont think a correction would have come through to him. Like Jo said.......I wouldnt have someone kicking my dog.....Id kick em back.

Could the situation have been avoided? I know things happen so fast and its done in seconds but I would have shouted to her to drop the toy, but thats easy to say after the event.

I think the dog was just doing what he knows and she just got the dog worked right up into it.

So is her leg ok? :?


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

I tend to think of this as a control issue, so in this situation I would have just held on to the toy, took the bite if it came to it, and THEN corrected the dog for biting me. Dropping the ball would be effective in preventing a bite at that moment but not in future situations because technically you're rewarding the dog for grabbing the toy without permission.


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## Hil Harrison (Mar 29, 2006)

Lyn Chen said:


> I tend to think of this as a control issue, so in this situation I would have just held on to the toy, took the bite if it came to it, and THEN corrected the dog for biting me. Dropping the ball would be effective in preventing a bite at that moment but not in future situations because technically you're rewarding the dog for grabbing the toy without permission.


In the situation that Mike sketched I wouldnt want that lady (with all respect to her) correcting my dog. One wrong correction and you have a screwed up dog...no thanks. Let the owner do the correcting.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Why was she picking the ball up to begin with?


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

To hold it and taunt the dog ofcourse.... if she meant to throw it then why didnt she? Logic would dictate that doggy chase ball :lol:


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Kristen Cabe said:


> Why was she picking the ball up to begin with?


ummm, maybe she wanted to play with the dog?


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

She was correcting the dog when she kicked at it, see what that got her. Corrections from owner ONLY.

She probably didn't see it as a correction but as self preservation. He saw it as something other than fun and was having none of it.


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## Archie David (Apr 4, 2007)

Justin Eimer said:


> Alegria~
> I don't know that there is a right or wrong answer here. It seems to me that you did the right thing by "prying him off" of your friend. Could he have been corrected? Sure he could have been corrected, but for what exactly? Here is, as you described him, a high drive Czech line Shepherd (male pup probably full of piss and vinegar), who went after his toy (possession is a good trait in a working dog) when someone tried to pick it up. This friend of yours should know better (if she has been around working/sport dogs) than to freak out (if not, I'll bet that she will drop Rade's ball sooner and won't kick him again). She probably should have just dropped his ball instead of making/turning the situation into a game of keep away and kicking Rade into prey drive. I don't think that from what you described, Rade was intentionally trying to bite your friend. From my limited experience with *Czech line Shepherds, I believe that they tend to have a touch more defense drive *than many of the Shepherds from other lines. It sounds to me that when *your friend went into self preservation mode and tried to defend herself* by kicking at your pup, you both witnessed *him going into the same mode *and exhibit his own defense drive. When this happened, he most likely intended on biting her. If you want to supress his possesiveness or *give him a lesson in manners so that he will respect those who reach for his ball/toy*, that is entirely up to you. Just *be cautious *in doing so, because *you may supress a trait that you may want him to take advantage of later*, depending on what it is you intend on doing with him. I don't believe that you have a major poblem, just ask your friend to leave Rade's toys alone. LOL. Another suggestion would be to have Rade on a line and not loose, so that you have the ability to deliver a proper correction if he is exhibiting a trait or behavior that you deem innapropriate. Hope this helps. ~Justin
> PS~ I totally missed that your friend had an American Line Shepherd... Just educate her on proper behavior around dogs with higher drives.:lol: ;-)


Great post Justin! 

I would also do more obedience work on the dog if I had the same experience. I would focus on proofing his stays using his toys. On a weird note, I guess the original poster now has a pup that is tested on live bites. 

As a handler, all I could've done during that instance was to "out" the dog and maintain a neutral position. It is assumend that the owner knows about the character of this type of GSD.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Hil Harrison said:


> In the situation that Mike sketched I wouldnt want that lady (with all respect to her) correcting my dog. One wrong correction and you have a screwed up dog...no thanks. Let the owner do the correcting.


Yeah, I missed the part where it was a friend who did this. About the only thing I could see *I* could have done was tackle the dog before it bit her, or tackle her before she kicked the dog. 

I agree not letting anyone but owner correct the dog.


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## Alegria Cebreco (Jul 25, 2007)

Thanks for the replies!! From the looks of the replies, it isnt a serious problem. I wasnt sure if it was ok for him to respond to "corrections" in a defensive manner, at his age or not. I wanted to make sure I wasnt given an evil spawn pup, lol. We both learned our lesson. Rade is completely different than Ryot and was not aware of this side of him, up till the incident. I will be sure to imform people about his temperament, and keep him under control at all times. Thanks again!!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Alegria Cebreco said:


> Thanks for the replies!! From the looks of the replies, it isnt a serious problem. I wasnt sure if it was ok for him to respond to "corrections" in a defensive manner, at his age or not. I wanted to make sure I wasnt given an evil spawn pup, lol. We both learned our lesson. Rade is completely different than Ryot and was not aware of this side of him, up till the incident. I will be sure to imform people about his temperament, and keep him under control at all times. Thanks again!!


One thing to remember about the answers you get here. We are working dog people. We accept this sort of situation knowing what our dogs can do.
The general public may not be so open to the idea of our dogs being biters. 
No way is this criticism of anyone here. Just being the devils advocate about owning a dog with the potential to bite. 
We have a serious responsibility with our dogs.


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## Justin Eimer (Oct 17, 2006)

Archie David said:


> Great post Justin!
> 
> I would also do more obedience work on the dog if I had the same experience. I would focus on proofing his stays using his toys. On a weird note, I guess the original poster now has a pup that is tested on live bites.
> 
> As a handler, all I could've done during that instance was to "out" the dog and maintain a neutral position. It is assumend that the owner knows about the character of this type of GSD.


Thanks David. I know it may seem like the only thing I have to offer is arguing and directing snappy comebacks at Jeff, but that's not the case :lol:. (Not a challenge Jeff=;;-)) Hopefully the days of arguing are over, because I would really rather share what I have learned and learn from others. I don't disagree with your post at all and I really don't have anything else to add. Like I told Alegria earlier, there is no real right answer for this scenario. Talk of tackling dogs is okay, but in all reality not exactly practical. Not impossible, but not at all practical (not a dig on Lyn either). What I mean is that we can arm chair quarterback this thing to death, but $hit happens so quickly sometimes there is really no telling how one would react in that situation until we are faced with it. Those of us that have faced it already know that we don't always respond in the same manner every time, but each and every situation is different in regards to dogs, people, placement (i.e. location of objects in your surroundings), terrain, etc... Anyway, I think that Alegria did fine and will take proper precautions in the future to avoid such an event from taking place again. ~Justin;-)


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## Justin Eimer (Oct 17, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> One thing to remember about the answers you get here. We are working dog people. We accept this sort of situation knowing what our dogs can do.
> The general public may not be so open to the idea of our dogs being biters.
> No way is this criticism of anyone here. Just being the devils advocate about owning a dog with the potential to bite.
> We have a serious responsibility with our dogs.


Bob~
I couldn't agree with you more... Well said.


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## Alegria Cebreco (Jul 25, 2007)

Bob Scott said:


> One thing to remember about the answers you get here. We are working dog people. We accept this sort of situation knowing what our dogs can do.
> The general public may not be so open to the idea of our dogs being biters.
> No way is this criticism of anyone here. Just being the devils advocate about owning a dog with the potential to bite.
> We have a serious responsibility with our dogs.


Yes, I now know what kind of liability and responsibility true working dogs can be. I will definately keep him under control. 

Thanks again!!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I ****ing love argueing. Best way to see what a person really has to say, or not say. 

Here is something that I want to discourage though.

Quote: One wrong correction and you have a screwed up dog...no thanks. Let the owner do the correcting.

This has got to stop. One wrong correction and that is it?? The dog is gone???? Lets be realistic. I know way too many retard owners for this to be applicable. I have watched peoples PP dogs, and corrected them for being stupid in the house or whatever, and it never affected the dogs training one bit. Stop repeating what you have heard, but not experienced, as it is really annoying as well as it continues stupid thought patterns.

If your dog is such a shitter that one wrong correction screws up a dog......and I hear this a LOT on the internet, then shoot the dang thing and get a normal dog. This is such utter bullshit, not to mention how many times do we screw up a correction?? Ever get mad at the dog for pissing in the house, and it ends up being something someone spilled??? Just one of many examples of bad corrections.

Dogs learn situations and patterns. If a dog is screwing up, and you correct him, it is not gonna mess anything up, AND you will find that nearly all dogs will accept the correction and go on about their business without this permanent damage I hear about. 

And no, this is not aimed at Hil.:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Hil Harrison (Mar 29, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I ****ing love argueing. Best way to see what a person really has to say, or not say.
> 
> Here is something that I want to discourage though.
> 
> ...


:lol: :lol: :lol: NP Jeff I loves ya really :lol: :lol: ;-) 
Maybe it would have been better to say " Constant wrong corrections COULD screw up a dog" or "One really bad correction MAY screw up a dog". And yes you are right about the dog being a shitter if he cant take one correction but then I must have seen some shitters here cos I have witnessed it. Also two examples: Some handler on the training field kicking the s**t out of his dog and what happend? The dog refused to do much of anything anymore and yes it was maybe field related but still. I also know of a true story of a guy during training that because his dog refused the wide jump he drove his car onto the field and hooked the dog up to the car battery and gave him some volts . Dog peed and s**t himself all over the place and ran off, which to me seems a normal reaction to that darn abuse! Sorry but that is going too damn far! Dog was literally dragged back over the field and thrown in the car.........handlers reaction was "Screw that dog!"

I didnt mean just a normal correction on the leash and maybe should have been more precies with examples;-) but this is what I had in mind when I wrote it. The answer you wrote Jeff I do agree with;-)


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## Hil Harrison (Mar 29, 2006)

forgot to add:

Ok so the first two situations are from corrections from the owner, here one from another person correcting someoe elses dog:
I have seen a trainer correct another mans dogs so bad the dog refused to move a step....result dog in the car and end of training. The next training the dog was avoiding the trainer like crazy and completley unfocused on the handler. It took a long time for the dog to come around to where he was before the situation arose. Handler was peed off cos the trainer had in his eyes taken his dog further back in training. This was a just starting-out sportdog by the way.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Hil Harrison said:


> Some handler on the training field kicking the s**t out of his dog and what happend? The dog refused to do much of anything anymore and yes it was maybe field related but still. I also know of a true story of a guy during training that because his dog refused the wide jump he drove his car onto the field and hooked the dog up to the car battery and gave him some volts . Dog peed and s**t himself all over the place and ran off, which to me seems a normal reaction to that darn abuse! Sorry but that is going too damn far! Dog was literally dragged back over the field and thrown in the car.........handlers reaction was "Screw that dog!"
> 
> I didnt mean just a normal correction on the leash and maybe should have been more precies with examples;-) but this is what I had in mind when I wrote it. The answer you wrote Jeff I do agree with;-)


I have to say that this is NOT what I mean when I say "correction."


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## Hil Harrison (Mar 29, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I have to say that this is NOT what I mean when I say "correction."


I know Connie and its not mine either......pity the handlers in these mentioned situations do see it as one  Its sure not good for the dogtraining circuit when a handler DOES call these corrections. I hope they were kicked out straight away!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Uhhhhhh, yea, car battery does not = correction.


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