# Cervical Disk Injury



## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Super bummed out. Farley has been yelping in pain since last night with certain movements, won't shake his head, can't really sleep or get comfortable. Just got back from the vet and she said he has a cervical disk injury.

She said she recommends x rays, but that they don't actually always show up. The dog would have to be sedated. I just left with Meticam. They gave him a shot there, but it didn't keep him from yelping when ever he tried to lay down or stand up in the truck.

So most of you know that this is my avalanche/wilderness profile dog, and his reward is a tug game. He is BIG into the head prey shakes, not just tugging. Even in play, he is all about shaking crap, so maybe this whole neck thing shouldn't be surpirsing.

My question is...I would imagine this type of injury is not uncommon in bitework sports. Have you known dogs that have had this that have only had it once and then continued on in the sport? Or once they have an issue like this it will consistantly come back even once healed as they are more prone to it?


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

My dog Lily has a type of cervical disc disease called fibrocartilagenous embolism. But that's definitely not the only kind. To be honest, I'd get him to a neurology specialist absolutely ASAP, especially since he's a working dog. 

http://www.acvim.org/websites/acvim/index.php?p=228

For neurological injury, especially those that are acutely degenerative, the faster you respond with treatment, the better the prognosis since inflammation causes the neurons to permanently die (probably another reason they prescribed the metacam as an NSAID). A myelogram or a CT/MRI conducted by a specialist may be better, but survey radiographs done by your own vet can be appropriate too (though if you go to a referral hospital, they may prefer to take their own). You can't see the spinal cord if there's a bulging disc on a regular radiograph, but you can see how the vertebra are spaced for clues. Hope that helps a little!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Super bummed out. Farley has been yelping in pain since last night with certain movements, won't shake his head, can't really sleep or get comfortable. Just got back from the vet and she said he has a cervical disk injury.
> 
> She said she recommends x rays, but that they don't actually always show up. The dog would have to be sedated. I just left with Meticam. They gave him a shot there, but it didn't keep him from yelping when ever he tried to lay down or stand up in the truck.
> 
> ...


how serious is the injury...that would be the factor...what caused the injury? how is the dog doing after the initial injury period...I would get the xrays if the dog cannot lay down or stand up...

doesn't sound good to me, I would think that type of injury, if it was bad, would certainly end a serious sport career.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> My dog Lily has a type of cervical disc disease called fibrocartilagenous embolism. But that's definitely not the only kind. To be honest, I'd get him to a neurology specialist absolutely ASAP, especially since he's a working dog.
> 
> http://www.acvim.org/websites/acvim/index.php?p=228
> 
> For neurological injury, especially those that are acutely degenerative, the faster you respond with treatment, the better the prognosis since inflammation causes the neurons to permanently die (probably another reason they prescribed the metacam as an NSAID). A myelogram or a CT/MRI conducted by a specialist may be better, but survey radiographs done by your own vet can be appropriate too (though if you go to a referral hospital, they may prefer to take their own). You can't see the spinal cord if there's a bulging disc on a regular radiograph, but you can see how the vertebra are spaced for clues. Hope that helps a little!


They didn't seem mention that they thought it was degenerative, though it is possible I suppose. He is only 5 years. Is it plausible to have just have an acute injury..and does that change the outcomes?

Maren, is there a problem with waiting a few days for x rays? They made it sound like if they saw anything of concern on the x rays, or if things did not improve as they hope, they would refer me to a specialist. I would have to travel quite a distance to a vet that has anything more than x ray machines around these parts.

I am going to be testing this pet insurance I have been paying for for the past couple of years now.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I honestly couldn't say over the internet, sorry....  I do know that the first 24 hours are critical in acute neurological injuries to prevent the swelling that eventually will kill neurons, if it's a neurological injury and not just soft tissue/muscle. I'd see if you can at least call one of the specialists tomorrow and see what their recommendations are. If Farley was a pet dog, I don't think it'd be so much a problem to sit on it for a day or so, but for working dogs, I think it's best to err on the side of caution and move quickly. Just my not very experienced opinion. O


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Joby Becker said:


> how serious is the injury...that would be the factor...what caused the injury? how is the dog doing after the initial injury period...I would get the xrays if the dog cannot lay down or stand up...
> 
> doesn't sound good to me, I would think that type of injury, if it was bad, would certainly end a serious sport career.


He can get up and lay down, walk around and so on. When he walks he is carrying his head low and is not walking with any vigor though. He just yelps occasionally, I think if he doesn't guard it well. Getting up and laying down in the truck did produce some yelps. If he twitches in his sleep he will yelp and wake up and so on. He is depressed about it, but his neurological function is all fine, and he is keen to eat. Though he yelped once putting he head down to eat.

The onset was sudden last night. He was sleeping on his dog bed when I heard him yelp from the other room. It took me a bit to figure out what was hurting him as he has no point tenderness.

An hr before that we did a practice search with his usual big tug/prey shake reward, there was no indication that there was any pain then. Then he did a couple of fetches and shook the crap out of his toy, then we walked back to the car and came home, all seemed fine until an hr later.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I honestly couldn't say over the internet, sorry....  I do know that the first 24 hours are critical in acute neurological injuries to prevent the swelling that eventually will kill neurons, if it's a neurological injury and not just soft tissue/muscle. I'd see if you can at least call one of the specialists tomorrow and see what their recommendations are. If Farley was a pet dog, I don't think it'd be so much a problem to sit on it for a day or so, but for working dogs, I think it's best to err on the side of caution and move quickly. Just my not very experienced opinion. O


Appreciate it...I will make some calls tomorrow and see what I can find out.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

No problem...is he limping at all by chance?


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> No problem...is he limping at all by chance?


Nothing really noticable no. He is walking akwardly, especially when he first gets up and is holding his head in an artificial low position, though once he gets moving he is better. He can move his head around actually, I think he is just afraid to because he anticipates the pain and is not completely sure what movements are going to cause it. That is my interpretation anyways.

What are you thinking?


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Just curious, as it's something to let the specialist know when you contact them if he has been. Good luck and I hope he feels better!


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Sorry to hear Farley is in pain. Hope he feels better soon :sad:


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

I'm no vet, but I've been doing quite a bit of reading on disc disease lately due to my dog being seriously affected. Try looking up Intervertable Disc Disease, or herniated disc, I think you may see the symptoms you are describing there. Hope it isn't that.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Hi Jennifer, I too am sorry to read Farley is injured, and hope he is soon on the road to recovery. Please keep us posted.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Xrays done today. Nothing seen...of course. Bit pissed that they gave my dog back to me with crap all over his a**. 

I am also upset that he does not seem to do well with sedatives (from the x rays)....he is still stupid anxious, whinning, pacing. I called the on call vet, she said some dogs have a tougher time processing the drugs.

They have suggested a consult with a specialist in Cow Town, find out when they can fit me in tomorrow. Gerry..maybe we should have coffee?


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

In ringsport unfortunaltely we have this kind of injury more often. Usually a good osteopath can do wonders.
Of course it depends on the injury, because if it really is a herniated disk, he'll need surgery, but my experience taught me many vets say "herniated disk" when it isn't the fact.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Martine Loots said:


> In ringsport unfortunaltely we have this kind of injury more often. Usually a good osteopath can do wonders.
> Of course it depends on the injury, because if it really is a herniated disk, he'll need surgery, but my experience taught me many vets say "herniated disk" when it isn't the fact.


Martine, great to hear that from you. So are you saying that you see dogs that can have some types of neck injuries (no paralysis) and they can recover and still do bitework and be okay? I will be VERY happy if you say YES:smile:

He is actually doing better today. We have an appointment with a specialist in Calgary tomorrow. Asside from the possibility of a disk injury they decided they are worried about steroid responsive meningitis. I just don't think so because he is not lethargic enough for that and lacks other sypmtoms as well.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Gerry..maybe we should have coffee?


If you come here during Stampede you'll be drinking jello shots and those tequila shooters that require you to drink and then pour salt in your eye..coffee is banned here till next Monday morning


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> If you come here during Stampede you'll be drinking jello shots and those tequila shooters that require you to drink and then pour salt in your eye..coffee is banned here till next Monday morning


AHHH CRAP. Totally forgot about Stampede. Tomorrow is going to suck bigtime. 

I thought it was drink the shot, snort the salt and squeeze the lemon in your eye :wink:


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> AHHH CRAP. Totally forgot about Stampede. Tomorrow is going to suck bigtime.
> 
> I thought it was drink the shot, snort the salt and squeeze the lemon in your eye :wink:


Those bastards, I can still hardly see from my right eye but my ear is squeaky clean.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> AHHH CRAP. Totally forgot about Stampede. Tomorrow is going to suck bigtime.


Not necessarily, bring your husband and stay overnite here with us. Farley can stay here and you guys can go to Stampede for some fun, we are semi dog friendly :razz:


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Not necessarily, bring your husband and stay overnite here with us. Farley can stay here and you guys can go to Stampede for some fun, we are semi dog friendly :razz:


Awesome offer, but I have to work Saturday so I am aiming to do it all in one day. If they have to do some emergency kind of thing that requires the dog to stay overnight, I may call you. see pm.

Gonna leave the hubby at home to care for the malimonster.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Martine, great to hear that from you. So are you saying that you see dogs that can have some types of neck injuries (no paralysis) and they can recover and still do bitework and be okay? I will be VERY happy if you say YES:smile:
> .


Well, I say "yes" indeed 
But of course it depends on the seriousness of the injury and it is difficult to say that without having seen the dog.
But it frequently happens that dogs hit so hard on the entry of the attacks, that they hurt their neck or back.
Often they can't lift their head anymore or turn it right or left. My experience is that only a good osteopath solves those problems. If people start with pain killers and cortisone, this gives a temporary improvement but then it comes back even worse. It's important that the CAUSE of the injury is treated (vertebra, spine,...) and not the symptoms.

The last few years all my working dogs get a monthly check up by my osteo and most of the time there is nothing wrong, but it happend pretty often already too that there was a "hidden" (don't know the right word in English (latent?) injury that he could treat before it did damage.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Gerry,

The drive in was not so bad. Getting out of the city SUCKED. I did it all in one day, as they did not do any procedures.

They (the vets) seemed unsure if it was immune related poly arthritis/menegitis or...a sprained neck/slight disk injury.

SOOOO, I never learned anything new really. They wanted to do a spinal tap, but since he has improved so much, and the chances of them finding menegitis after the worst symptoms is not great so would not rule out if he actually had it...so of course I said no to that. Tollers are known for these type of immune related issues, so if that is what it was, it may come back sometime.

If it is just a neck injury, plain and simple, because he has started improving and shows no neurological deficits, the treatment is just going to involve rest at this time.

One month of no collar, no fast running, jumping, pouncing, tugging, or shaking of anything. So basically nothing fun at all for him. He is pissy because he feels mostly better and I am letting him rot, save a couple of cheesy walks a day. He can pretty much shake his head now like a normal dog, no yelping except if you turn his head all the way to the right. Getting up and laying down, bending his head to eat and such are all okay now, but were not before.

About the only think he is greatful for is that I am not making him spend any time with the mal brat on walks and such while he mends.

After a month I can go back to phasing in the work related neck stuff and see how he does.

I am going to try and be a bit proactive as Martine suggests as well and have someone in mind who may be able to help.

I will let you know if the insurance I have been paying for covers these bills. It should, but I have very little trust in insurnace companies.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> I will let you know if the insurance I have been paying for covers these bills. It should, but I have very little trust in insurnace companies.


If it was me, I wouldn't be holding my breath. Probably the best thing for him was the fact that they did nothing.

Hope he is going to be fine.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Martine, great to hear that from you. So are you saying that you see dogs that can have some types of neck injuries (no paralysis) and they can recover and still do bitework and be okay? I will be VERY happy if you say YES:smile:


We know a dog who had a neck hernia, treated with accupuncture and won the KNPV championships a few weeks later.
Also know other dogs who were treated with accupuncture (also working PSD's) in similar cases and never had any trouble anymore. All injuries were caused in attacks on the suit (confrontation with a decoy). So not broken or paralyzed (sp?) but bulbing tissue.

I;m tired so I can't put a nice sentence down in english, but I hope you understand what I''m trying to say.:roll:


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I've been out of town, am happy to read Farley boy is doing better. :smile:


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

He continues to improve, in fact he seems normal now, though I have not done any tug/fetch stuff yet as per vet's reccommendation. I am very encouraged to hear from Selena and Martine that they have seen this kind of thing and that dogs can certainly get back to work.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

This is good news!!! now keep them damn big sticks away from him watching that vid of him hurts my neck.
Get him one of them big long foam noodle things kids play with my guess is that would prolly last all of a minute though.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Yes, very sad for him but his stick days by the river are over. T'was a most dangerous game.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> He continues to improve, in fact he seems normal now, though I have not done any tug/fetch stuff yet as per vet's reccommendation. I am very encouraged to hear from Selena and Martine that they have seen this kind of thing and that dogs can certainly get back to work.


Make sure you have him checked by an osteopath before starting to work him again.
Even though he isn't in pain anymore, doesn't mean that the cause of the injury is gone (probably blocked vertebra). This has to be fixed before you start the work.
As Selena says, accupuncture and also laser therapy give good results too. My osteo uses a combination of manual therapy, accupuncture and laser therapy, depending on the injury.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Martine Loots said:


> Make sure you have him checked by an osteopath before starting to work him again.
> Even though he isn't in pain anymore, doesn't mean that the cause of the injury is gone (probably blocked vertebra). This has to be fixed before you start the work.
> As Selena says, accupuncture and also laser therapy give good results too. My osteo uses a combination of manual therapy, accupuncture and laser therapy, depending on the injury.


We don't have any animal osteopaths in my area.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> We don't have any animal osteopaths in my area.


No fysiotherapists either?


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Martine Loots said:


> No fysiotherapists either?


The closest physiotherapist for dogs is 3.5 hrs away. There is a person that does acupuncture and some chiropratics that is closer.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> The closest physiotherapist for dogs is 3.5 hrs away.* There is a person that does acupuncture and some chiropratics that is closer*.


If he's good then this will be ok


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