# Slow to mature malinois??



## Gina Pasieka

Hello all. I have a 12 week old male KNPV line malinois that I have had for just shy of 3 weeks. He is very environmentally stable, social and dominant, which i like...but his prey drive is not what I am used to in a mal. He will grab the ball a couple of times, but becomes bored with it very quickly. He is quite the devil as I am trying to get him off my ankle :evil:....so I am assuming he is just a late bloomer for a mal. Has anyone seen a mal with crappy prey drive??


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## georgia estes

I can't speak for all of them but we have a guy in our club that brought a mal pup out that wouldn't bite anything. He wouldn't chase the rag,ball etc and it looked pretty grim. That dog is now 1.5 years old and he is the best dog in our club. He just won a big tournament in the advanced division. He's got drive out the wazoo and will bite anything and anyone. He was a late bloomer I suppose.


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## Anne Pridemore

Drive can be increased with training. At 12 weeks old I don't think I would worry over him being a dud just yet. Up your praise for drivey behavior, and stop the game BEFORE he get board with it.


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## Kadi Thingvall

Gina Pasieka said:


> Has anyone seen a mal with crappy prey drive??


Sure, just because they are Malinois doesn't mean they automatically have insane drives. If you look around on various websites there are usually people selling Malinois because they don't have enough drive. That said, it's quite easy the pup is just slower to mature, or simply finds your ankle more interesting then the ball. Have you asked the breeder? They should know their lines, and if what this pup is doing is normal for those lines.


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## Harry Keely

Can't speak for all but there are late bloomers in malis and dutchies, have heard of and also experience a female dutchie that I sold that was 9 months old that has come out almost overnight. I also washed a pup out of my litter that was not showing what I like to see and now is becoming a little prey monster. If you have the room and time hold on to the little ankle biter. Good luck.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Post the pedigree. I am sure that someone will tell you a bit about it.


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## kamphuis gerben

this is what i think 
12 weeks i just washed out a dutchiefemale i bought who seems simular as your malinois puppy 
i dont say the dog will not be good when he gets older but i want to see everything very early 
so i can start working whith the pup many say ok this dog matures slowly but in my eyes they have it or they dont 
many things you can train build up drive seems to me you trying as i did but my feeling must be good 
i want to see a complete pup whith good nerves,drive,retrieve and preydrive 
and the sooner the better yes i saw dogs become good when getting older but those are exeptions sure not the rule 
greetings gerben


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I have seen a couple of pups from Endor that didn't do shit till later. Then they were good dogs. Wasn't he your dog ??

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely dislike a dog that shows drives late, too much BS floating around about how the dog will do whatever, at whatever age.


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## Christopher Jones

I think similar to Gerben. I have seen pups that have "average" prey turn out real nice, and also pups that had real high prey and they also turned out nice. For me I want the prey early for two reasons. Firstly you use the prey drive to imprint and expose them prior to their teeth changing. Secondly if im looking at the dog as a potential breeding animal then they most likely produce pups similar to what they were like as pups.


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## Christopher Jones

But having said that, other people say that "dogs that grow slow grow stronger"


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## kamphuis gerben

hello,jeff your absolutely right from every dog you get early starters and slow starters 
i had from endor a late starter as well but i didnt wash him out it also has to do whith feeling 
plus what you like i prefer early starters gives me a lot off funn to work them in a young age 
and i think its neccecary for later on to have a steady base where you can start off working them 
greetings gerben


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## kamphuis gerben

another thought off me 
by looing at the newest things happening in europe i think whe only must look for good nerves social behaviourand not longer for all the tooles neccecary for bitework knpv looses a lot of members,also the vdh schutzhund holland for example on the last trail there were in my province only 8 ph1 some ph2 few obj total 12 dogs in two days trail this is unbelievable whe had in the past a full week trails whith over 60 ph1 and this was last year the same only 2 days trail in mai 
plus knpv is very hot on the they called searchdog program last episode from the knpv paper 7 pages were filled whith this plus in germany the sv schutzhund wants to get ride of the c part so no bitework anymore ,in ostria the goverment want to forbid bitework totally 
in holland they keep a list whith biteaccedents and the malinois is in place one not so strange because you can imagine what happens during soccergames whith hooligans getting bitten and all bites are reported 
i dont know how that will go on in the future but i see changes very fast 
for me no knpv whitout bitework and also not as a sport i want to train policedogs servicedogs 
maybe its time to emigrate to make sure that in 10 years from now i can still train and work the way iam used to 
greetings gerben


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I don't know what to say. I know that you would have a warm welcome here in Texas, if you decide to emigrate.

We dog people are too busy training dogs, breeding dogs, and trialing. The people that want to take this away from us, have nothing better to do than to go against us.

I know that these people chip away at small rules and laws so that they can open the door to our destruction.

Banding together and fighting them is the only way to win.


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## Christopher Jones

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I don't know what to say. I know that you would have a warm welcome here in Texas, if you decide to emigrate.
> 
> We dog people are too busy training dogs, breeding dogs, and trialing. The people that want to take this away from us, have nothing better to do than to go against us.
> 
> I know that these people chip away at small rules and laws so that they can open the door to our destruction.
> 
> Banding together and fighting them is the only way to win.


 Amen. The amount of tyranny you will live under is the exact amount you let them get away with.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

for me, personally I like to have a dog who shows this behaviour, don´t like insane prey drive. I usually causes probs in the way we train. Give me a sleeper at the pole at 6 mo. when it´s awakening at10/14 mo. it will be a stable,relaxed, confident dog who all saw it happen but didn´t give a shit.

I know I would like the behaviour from the washout Gerben is talking about ;-)


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## kamphuis gerben

the wash out went to a sportfriend off mine and he will give him the chance 
till 14 mths so only time will tell 
i think whats more important is the click you have or dont whith a dog 
there was no click for me here 
greetings gerben


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## Selena van Leeuwen

I've talked to Ivo, that's why I know which pup you washed out. ;-)


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## kamphuis gerben

hello,selena now your oppering that you know which an what puppie it was i was planning on telling nobody 
i gave it to ivo for free i gave up a pup i was perfechtly happy whithout of rudie pegge to go in her place 
because i know that otherwise the guy who gets these pups would be very dissapointed
the better one of the two i picked up and my own pup i sended over 
for a fact i know that ivo gave it to ogink the owner of bokito for future breeding only because the pup is awsome looking 
ok pups can have drive yes or no have fear yes or no can runn from strange things yes or no 
this pup was the best pup i had in over 30 years in the running thing 
greetings gerben


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## Gina Pasieka

Thanks for all the imput. I am not writing him off yet...as there are so many other things I like about him. We are starting to make some head way with his dominance issues...ie. I have had a few bloody morning involving stuff he shouldn't get into. Hand feeding and just avoiding conflict has helped a lot with that part of our relationship. I was trying to do the Ivan "chase and catch" training to avoid conflict...but its just not working with him...so going back to the tried and true 2 ball trick...and he was much more motivated today. Just one more reminder that not every dog responds to every training method. P.S. he is line bred on Quatro....so also quite the looker ;-)


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## Selena van Leeuwen

@Gerben; Overijssel is typisch "Hogeling-land", dat alleen maakt het al vreemd dat er uberhaupt Rambo-liefhebbers zitten.
Volgens mij is het verstandig het "gezellig" te houden en elkaars voorkeuren en fokproducten niet te veroordelen.

Dick


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## Selena van Leeuwen

kamphuis gerben said:


> hello,selena now your oppering that you know which an what puppie it was i was planning on telling nobody


I'm saying that I was told which puppy it was, and that -instead of you- I probably would like the puppy, it's a question of taste. Haven't said anything else, you mentioned in this thread you recently washed out a puppy only refering/replying to that. So "planning on telling nobody" isn't in place, is it?


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## kamphuis gerben

its not a problem 
respect on both sides 
i like this you like that in the end both want good dogs 
plus not everydog in a litter can be super maybe i choose the wrong one 
can be at least she gets a good chance thats importand to me 
or maybe my expectations were too high 
can also be 
greetings gerben


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## jack van strien

I was not sure if i was going to respond or not,took the dog out playing for awhile and decided to respond.I know this is off topic but i think this is not the only time.Thank you Dick/Selena and Gerben.Imo a lot of people on this forum regard The KNPV as the holy grail of dogtraining,wether it is or not does not really matter for now.
Here are a few highly respected trainers who are very good breeders also, who differ in their approach and filosofy of training.I think it is very good to see there is alot of respect for eachother and it goes to show there are more then one road wich leads to Rome.
Neither one pretends to be better then the other,no need to Jeff O eachother.
I hope this will make some people think about a more positive way to help eachother,


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## mike suttle

To ad to what Jack just said above. I have pups from the litter and example that Gerben and Dick/Selena are talking about. If I am honest with myself and evaluate them today I can certainly see where Gerben is coming from. However I have decided to give one of the pups the benifit of the doubt just as Dick would do and allow her to grow up and mature and see how she does as an adult. I know how slow some of these lines can mature compared to other bloolines out there, so I am not in a panic about it at the moment. 
Gerben saw bad nerves which is a deal breaker for most people, Dick knows these lines better than any of us and I trust his opinion that the dog will be good as an adult. I have a great deal of respect for both of these people, and since I have a puppy from this litter I can see both of their points of view.

To answer the original post about slow to mature dogs. I do not like it, but in my expierence the dogs who mature slower, mature stronger. I have had several puppies from Arko, and especially Endor who matured very slow. I know that the Rambo lines can mature slower than most and I am OK with that knowing it up front. It is frustrating for some of my clients to see a 6 month old French Malinois biting a full suit while a 6 month old Endor puppy is asleep at the pole. But at 2 years old where it really matters, most of the time the sleepy dogs that do wake up are much better in the end.
I am of course talking about the stable dogs, the ones with bad nerves are much harder for me to hold on to.


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## Gina Pasieka

Thanks Mike. That is what I am kind of thinking as well. Fortunately the pup does have nerves of steel. My last 2 mals were French, so having a Dutch mal is like having a completely different animal. Much more environmentally stable and head strong, but just not over the top in the crazy prey drive that I am previously used to. I am hoping that this will be better in the long run, as I am expecting a dog that will not be so hectic in his work.


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## Christopher Jones

Gina Pasieka said:


> Thanks Mike. That is what I am kind of thinking as well. Fortunately the pup does have nerves of steel. My last 2 mals were French, so having a Dutch mal is like having a completely different animal. Much more environmentally stable and head strong, but just not over the top in the crazy prey drive that I am previously used to. I am hoping that this will be better in the long run, as I am expecting a dog that will not be so hectic in his work.


Dont think that all KNPV lined pups are lower in drive than other bloodlines. You will find different lines that show drive later and others that show it early within the KNPV. You also have to factor that the KNPV dogs are generally alot bigger than the French dogs and so also generally have a different maturity rate, and nervous system.


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## Erica Boling

mike suttle said:


> ...
> 
> To answer the original post about slow to mature dogs. I do not like it, but in my expierence the dogs who mature slower, mature stronger. I have had several puppies from Arko, and especially Endor who matured very slow. I know that the Rambo lines can mature slower than most and I am OK with that knowing it up front. It is frustrating for some of my clients to see a 6 month old French Malinois biting a full suit while a 6 month old Endor puppy is asleep at the pole. But at 2 years old where it really matters, most of the time the sleepy dogs that do wake up are much better in the end..


 
Just curious, Mike... It what ways have you seen the slower to mature dogs "mature stronger"? In what ways have you seen them better in the end? I've had some dogs that have appeared to be slower to mature. When they were younger, I questioned whether they had the drives that I wanted. It's been fascinating watching them grow up and seeing how things evolve. I don't know how much of it is related to training and how much is actually related to a more natural increase in drive as the dog matures...


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Erica Boling said:


> Just curious, Mike... It what ways have you seen the slower to mature dogs "mature stronger"? In what ways have you seen them better in the end? I've had some dogs that have appeared to be slower to mature. When they were younger, I questioned whether they had the drives that I wanted. It's been fascinating watching them grow up and seeing how things evolve. I don't know how much of it is related to training and how much is actually related to a more natural increase in drive as the dog matures...


It is simple. The high drive dogs/dogs brought in high drive, are not aware of everything that happens around them. Drive makes them focus so much.....

Especially a young dog should be aware of everything and react or become resistant to wards strange things in his environment.

Because of their "calmness", this type (the late maturing ones) of dog IS aware of everything and is, or is learning to coop with that.

A lot of trainers are bringing a (young) dog in high drive so the dog can coop or doesn't see the threat or stick. 
We don't. After a dog has learned to bite. He is, and we make him aware of what is happening and experience learns that the dogs who are calm and mature late are better with that.

It is not rare when you make dogs, made crazy as a young dog, aware of the things happening as f.e. a hit with a stick or thrown article at/on him, you can/may see "unpleasant things", in a stage you certainly don't want that.

Dick


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: But at 2 years old where it really matters, most of the time the sleepy dogs that do wake up are much better in the end.

In what way ?? Give me some examples of dogs that are much better in the end because they matured later. I can pretty much give you a bunch of examples of dogs that did not mature late, and are pretty strong. Gotta remember that the KNPV stuff is a certificate, and the dog does it how many times ?? If you only have to train to trial one time, well that is bullshit.

For me, the little bastards (mals) do way too much at a really really early age, and being that Americans all want ring 12's at 5 months of age, there is a good possibility that they are rushing. Then, lets look at how early people are doing bitework, and how if you watch closely, most decoys or helpers are dominating the pups from the start, or making it a game AND dominating them. Pups are never going to be over the top if you are doing this. You could see how the pup that is left alone and not worked in bitework till later would be a lot stronger.

Look at most of the DS, or dutch dogs here. They flop badly, or have a badly brought along sense of what they are supposed to do, and are just nervy biters, hand biters, basically just dangerous and this is encouraged by little jane insecure. I am amazed that they sell to us, but then remember how many of them are charging a shitload more than they are to the guy down the street, or at the club.


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## morris lindesey

I have a 8 mo pup in my club that is off of Arko and has some of Dick/ Seleena's lines in him. He came off a litter of 5 pups,4 males and 1 female. He was that sleepy pup, he would wander away from the litter on his own laid down with a toy and guard it from the rest and was the last to jerry can and showed little interest in working. His 4 siblings were jerry canning at 6 weeks, he didnt hit the can until about 4 months old. I know this isn't exactly slow maturing , but in comparison to his siblings it was. Now at 8 mos he has the best entries and shows super nerve. He was last pick! Now he is looking better than 3 of his siblings in the work.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

How much of that is because people rushed the others ??


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## morris lindesey

I wish I could give a definitive answer Jeff. The two best looking pups right now are in our club IMO...the 1st pick and the last pick. I know this because I saw all of the pups at a training day we recently had. I see them about every 2 months. Not that we are even good trainers, but we try to do things right by them. As for the other owners, I'm not there to see what they do, so I can't give you a good answer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=Ns538WJ_QAo
This was the last pick pup Erno (Sleepy Head)


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> How much of that is because people rushed the others ??


imo you're right, much is caused by people who want to see "biting from the lane" at 6 mo. Just ego probs of the owner.

Dick


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## morris lindesey

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> imo you're right, much is caused by people who want to see "biting from the lane" at 6 mo. Just ego probs of the owner.
> 
> Dick


Not sure if Dick was firing that one at me. We only go as fast as the pup dictates, he/she wants to go slow...then slow it is and if they wish to go faster...then we go a little bit faster, but not all out.


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## mike suttle

I have seen a lot of young (8 weeks to 8 months) french line malinois who were insane with drive and would bite a full suit at a very young age. Everyone thinks this is a great thing and so they keep doing it more and more with the pup. At some point the pup falls apart usually from be forced (or allowed) to go too fast. 
If a pup is lazy as a baby (less than 8 months) then he has a chance to mature mentally a little before he sees this type of stress.
I have worked young puppies with a lot of pressure for short periods of time. Like in some very short videos, then people see this and think that they should work every puppy like that every time they take him out to train. This is where it is better to have a calm and stable type of dog.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=Ns538WJ_QAo
This was the last pick pup Erno (Sleepy Head)

Too much too early. I like to see drag ins, and develop the entry first. I like to condition this first before the accessories. You can see he is not going at a decent speed at all.


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## morris lindesey

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=Ns538WJ_QAo
> This was the last pick pup Erno (Sleepy Head)
> 
> Too much too early. I like to see drag ins, and develop the entry first. I like to condition this first before the accessories. You can see he is not going at a decent speed at all.


Not an excuse , just the truth Jeff. We end every session with a send. He had already done drag ins to the back of the leg and looked a little slow on the send, due to fatigue IMO.


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## morris lindesey

morris lindesey said:


> Not an excuse , just the truth Jeff. We end every session with a send. He had already done drag ins to the back of the leg and looked a little slow on the send, due to fatigue IMO.


Oh yeah ...we dont do the accessories all the time...maybe every other time. Its seems that going with every other session they seem IMO to get stronger, just my 2 cents. My only point was to help illustrate that even sleepy pups wake up.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

How often do the owners wait, and wait, and wait, ????? : )

I have never had a dog go that slow even fatigued. Just saying. The other thing is why are you working an 8 month old that hard ??


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## morris lindesey

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> How often do the owners wait, and wait, and wait, ????? : )
> 
> I have never had a dog go that slow even fatigued. Just saying. The other thing is why are you working an 8 month old that hard ??


I've waited before with a few dogs. My experience and I don't know about everyone else's is ,dogs have a funny way about developing opinions about accessories. I've waited until dogs were older, more developed and found difficulty in getting them past the fluff (accessories) that MR or PSA provides. Now time, effort has been wasted we figure get it out of the way early. When they reach an older age lets just say 18 to 24 mos. We then would bring seriousness to the work and the fluff is exactly what it is to them .... fluff. Maybe, we could of not worked him so hard that day, but we feel dogs need to learn at a young age that some days will be harder than others and he needs to suck it up and work. He is going to be a large dog..my guess 85-90 lbs at maturity. He's already 66 lbs @ 8 mos and trim. I don't profess to be an expert, I dont think we are ruining the dogs, they are happy and like working. Change fields,decoys and they work just the same, so we are either doing something right or the dogs are better than we are, it's very possible. What can I tell you, Jeff, Maybe you are right! Maybe we need to slow down. We will try that in the upcoming weeks and see how it goes. I'm not trying to be a jerk , I'm always open to suggestions from the more experienced that's all.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I just want the entry to be conditioned to be fast with drag ins and bungee work. If the dog has a problem with the accessories, then three things are a problem. The dog doesn't have it, or the accessories were introduced in a way that the dog believes them. OR the entry was not conditioned correctly.

I do understand about pushing a dog. I am guilty of it as well, but never to the point where the dog is going that slow. Must of been a long day.


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## morris lindesey

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I just want the entry to be conditioned to be fast with drag ins and bungee work. If the dog has a problem with the accessories, then three things are a problem. The dog doesn't have it, or the accessories were introduced in a way that the dog believes them. OR the entry was not conditioned correctly.
> 
> I do understand about pushing a dog. I am guilty of it as well, but never to the point where the dog is going that slow. Must of been a long day.


We will try cutting it back a notch or 2 and see what happens, it can't hurt. I know that things can always be better. We know how to introduce accessories, but we rather find out early, if the dog has it or not. I understand where you are coming from about trying to imprint into the dog about making power early. We just prefer to teach them to make power later, when they are more physically mature. Instead of getting jammed up a 1 1/2 to 2 years down the line with him/her. It was a very long rainy day. Good day Jeff


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## Ron Davidson

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=Ns538WJ_QAo
> This was the last pick pup Erno (Sleepy Head)
> 
> Too much too early. I like to see drag ins, and develop the entry first. I like to condition this first before the accessories. You can see he is not going at a decent speed at all.


If that is a slow entry (for a 8 month old), I'd like to see the fast ones. I'm from Missouri.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Maybe the prescription on your glasses needs to be changed. The dog jogged in to the bite. I don't like to see that. Although he would be a bitch to esquive in FR.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Instead of getting jammed up a 1 1/2 to 2 years down the line with him/her.

Kinda what I don't like about "late" maturing dogs. Maybe it doesn't happen. Too many people I have met have their breeders telling them that it will happen, it will happen, then when it doesn't, they tell them they ****ed it up. : )


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## morris lindesey

http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=kVFmULBh_AA

Was this better Jeff! lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=dWuUw_VuHRg

I told you we do drag ins


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## Joby Becker

Nice dog! bet it wasn't fast enough though. after all he IS 8 months already... ...


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## Ron Davidson

morris lindesey said:


> He is going to be a large dog..my guess 85-90 lbs at maturity. He's already 66 lbs @ 8 mos and trim. I don't profess to be an expert, I dont think we are ruining the dogs, they are happy and like working.





Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Maybe the prescription on your glasses needs to be changed. The dog jogged in to the bite. I don't like to see that. Although he would be a bitch to esquive in FR.


Maybe your perception of reality needs to be changed. The pup doesn't break stride to the bite, i.e. no gathering. Where are these super fast nearly 70lb 8 mo olds doing frontals at on the web? Show me the dogs that are so much better than this one, so that I may be blessed with a pup from them. You must have one in you yard or club Mr. O. I'm baffled. 


Suggestion. Everyone has a slick comment for what the next trainer is doing. In the technology age I say we post a video of things being done the right way with any negative comment.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Now I am just getting my balls busted. LOL 

I would like to see more speed on the entry. Of course, the second video said that an error occurred. 

As a side note, I always want to see more speed on entry. Too greedy. I want to see the second video, but this time of day youtube is constantly doing stuff like that. I dragged my dog in for a long long time before I sent him free to the decoy. That is how greedy I get.


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## Diana Abel

morris lindesey said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=kVFmULBh_AA
> 
> Was this better Jeff! lol
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=dWuUw_VuHRg
> 
> I told you we do drag ins


Nice Moe!
I'd take him any day.  Some day I'm coming down there to train with yall.


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## morris lindesey

Diana Abel said:


> Nice Moe!
> I'd take him any day.  Some day I'm coming down there to train with yall.


I don't know if you would want that dog...I'm sure he will washout in a few months! You want to come out to train with us??? You may want to rethink that also,we may ruin your young dog, if you train with us!


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## Matt Grosch

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: But at 2 years old where it really matters, most of the time the sleepy dogs that do wake up are much better in the end.
> 
> In what way ?? Give me some examples of dogs that are much better in the end because they matured later. I can pretty much give you a bunch of examples of dogs that did not mature late, and are pretty strong. Gotta remember that the KNPV stuff is a certificate, and the dog does it how many times ?? If you only have to train to trial one time, well that is bullshit.
> 
> For me, the little bastards (mals) do way too much at a really really early age, and being that Americans all want ring 12's at 5 months of age, there is a good possibility that they are rushing. Then, lets look at how early people are doing bitework, and how if you watch closely, most decoys or helpers are dominating the pups from the start, or making it a game AND dominating them. Pups are never going to be over the top if you are doing this. You could see how the pup that is left alone and not worked in bitework till later would be a lot stronger.
> 
> Look at most of the DS, or dutch dogs here. They flop badly, or have a badly brought along sense of what they are supposed to do, and are just nervy biters, hand biters, basically just dangerous and this is encouraged by little jane insecure. I am amazed that they sell to us, but then remember how many of them are charging a shitload more than they are to the guy down the street, or at the club.




I still havent seen a ton of police dogs, but the two depts im familiar with (one medium, one small) both only use KNPV dogs. They seem better than the dogs from other agencies that arent all KNPV, and the older K9 guys are much happier with them and said they will never go back


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## Matt Grosch

also, since the topic seems to apply, 

I was told my dog (got him at 7 months) would be slow to mature because of his bloodline, but also that he had a good potential to end up very serious. Not only do I not mind the slow maturing, it might be a benefit since this is the first good dog and good trainer im working with, he works very well in prey and I think it will allow me to do more before he potentially gets serious.

Also, many times I feel like I could be going a lot faster with what he is doing, but im trusting my trainer because im generally impressed and he trained his own national level dog.

It appears to be going well because he, and everyone else, is always impressed watching him work, and I havent had an 'oh crap' moment yet


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I am not talking about that kind of maturing, maybe we need to give it another name. I am talking about the pups that have little to no interest in biting until 15 months give or take.


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## Diana Abel

morris lindesey said:


> I don't know if you would want that dog...I'm sure he will washout in a few months! You want to come out to train with us??? You may want to rethink that also,we may ruin your young dog, if you train with us!


You know better than that Moe. lol You know Ive been wanting to come down there for awhile now & would be thrilled to train with yall. Just want to get more on top of my game before I come down. BTW, yall are always welcome up here anytime. 

To go back to the Thread topic, as for my Dutchie, I was told that Irtho offspring tend to mature later. He is 9 months old now and I'm very pleased with him and so far as are the people who have helped me with him.


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## morris lindesey

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I am not talking about that kind of maturing, maybe we need to give it another name. I am talking about the pups that have little to no interest in biting until 15 months give or take.


Jeff is right! Matt, 7 mo and shows interest or is already working is good.
Diana that pup you have is nice...he's been working for a while now, he's just right for his age...I think.


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## Diana Abel

morris lindesey said:


> Jeff is right! Matt, 7 mo and shows interest or is already working is good.
> Diana that pup you have is nice...he's been working for a while now, he's just right for his age...I think.


Thanks Moe. I was talking to Matt about it tonight after he worked him and he said he was doing fine for his age.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

The few that I have seen, when you work them with a tug on a line, they have everything in the sequence of behaviors, except biting.


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