# Ot Vitosha vs. Loups Du Soleil



## Logan Payton

If you were looking for a versatile Mal for competitive obedience and Schutzhund work, but was also a stable family companion, which program would you want a dog from?


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## Joby Becker

neither


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## Logan Payton

Joby Becker said:


> neither


Elaborate?


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## Joby Becker

I dont have an interest in those kennels. not knocking or bashing them... also dont know enough about either of them to recommend one over another.


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## Logan Payton

Joby Becker said:


> dont know enough about either of them to recommend one over another.


Thank you for your response...I guess?


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## lannie dulin

Logan Payton said:


> If you were looking for a versatile Mal for competitive obedience and Schutzhund work, but was also a stable family companion, which program would you want a dog from?


Loups Du Soleil only because I'm familiar with them. I've trained with ME, played with his pups, and discussed his breeding program and how he makes his selections. I've also met his business partner and had similar conversations. My mal is also 25% Loups Du Soleil. So...I guess I'm pretty bias.


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## Anna Kasho

I suggest starting in the opposite direction - go see a bunch of dogs working/training and in general life, define exactly what traits would make for an ideal OB/Sch/family dog, and go evaluate dogs and puppies until you find one that fits. Too many variables to pick just by kennel name alone. Different dogs and different combinations wil produce different things, and ultimately it's up to you to decide what you like and what you can live with. 

Do you have a local SchH club to train with? That would be a good place to start research.


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## Joby Becker

lannie dulin said:


> Loups Du Soleil only because I'm familiar with them. I've trained with ME, played with his pups, and discussed his breeding program and how he makes his selections. I've also met his business partner and had similar conversations. My mal is also 25% Loups Du Soleil. So...I guess I'm pretty bias.


why not 50 or 100%?


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## rick smith

why the Q and why these lines ?
- if enuff responders mentioned one particular line, would you then buy one there ?

that might be one way to buy a dog, but imo it's very similar to "what's the best dog food" threads, so i'll give my (adapted) stock answer : educate yourself on your chosen sport first so you will recognize the type of dog to buy later; not a line that "works" for someone else's taste in dogs
- isn't this Q sorta like asking for a comparison of car brands ?

- no matter what you buy, sooner or later it will be up to YOU to train it, not the breeder you bought it from or the club you take it to, and there are no guarantees or warranties in that area; just excuses and "other opinions" on your dog 
... no lemon laws with a decades long dog investment and imo they shouldn't be treated like cars even tho some owners do just that //lol//

- btw, i was curious when you already seemed set on a Mal bitch. any particular reason for preferring the sex in advance ?... for compatibility" with your current pack, or a particular reason you prefer a F over a M ?

good luck however you decide to base your purchase decision


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## Logan Payton

As far as sex is concerned - I am actually 100% agnostic. I will not bypass the right individual because it is the wrong sex and would give the breeder full carte blanche here. My husband has a preference for a bitch. :roll: but as I said before this dog will be my partner and I will be trialing with it so ultimately the choice is mine. 

The reason(s) I am coming here:

1. The schh club that I will be working with, is full of GSD people, and don't necessarily have the specific "inside" knowledge as Mal folks which is why I wanted to ask the question to this broader audience. Specifically people who maybe own dogs from one of these programs and can speak from first hand experience. 

#2. I had a great experience with my last breeder (Rottweiler) and the years of positive support and mentoring meant a great deal to me and the dog was imprinted well, socialized well, and had a terrific start to life and if possible I would like to find the same characteristics in the next breeder I buy a dog from - which according to my research both of these kennels suit that requirement and also know and place their pups appropriately, in the right homes based on handler experience/goals. 

#3. There are a few ring people in my area...however they are not folks I would rely upon for insight into this serious of a decision as they are more of the "look at my bitin' dog, 'Merica!" variety and are not what I would consider desirable/helpful for the goals I have. 

I have personally corresponded with both Ot Vitosha and Michael Ellis. I like them both and wanted to hear from others who have had personal experiences from either and broaden my research. 

Thank you.


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## Steve Strom

I've seen dogs from both that I think you'd be happy with Logan, but to say one over the other??? I don't know how to tell you to decide. Try and see the dogs first hand, talk to both face to face.


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## Logan Payton

Steve Strom said:


> I've seen dogs from both that I think you'd be happy with Logan, but to say one over the other??? I don't know how to tell you to decide. Try and see the dogs first hand, talk to both face to face.


Ok. Good to hear. Thanks Steve.


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## Steve Strom

I sent you a PM Logan.


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## Logan Payton

Steve Strom said:


> I sent you a PM Logan.


yep just responded.


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## lannie dulin

Joby Becker said:


> why not 50 or 100%?


Because it's the grand father on the sire side. That makes 25%. I wasn't specifically looking for this kennel when I got my mal. I was looking for FR2 &3 titles across generations. This breeding had that (Red Star).


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## Jake Brandyberry

Logan where are you located?


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## Ted Summers

I'd say of the domestic competition dogs, they are 2 of the more successful or larger. Of the dogs I've seen they've all been very 'balanced' in drives, nerves, etc etc. Dantero is also another one to look at.


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## Annamarie Somich

Loups du Soleil and Ot Vitosha are twice the normal price. There are pups out there with similar bloodlines. Dantero is doing some really neat breedings. If you are going to do IPO, then I would specifically look for a litter bred for that and/or an individual pup that fits the criteria. I can think of about 5 breedings coming up this year that would produce a nice male for IPO for $1000, give or take.

And you can't just say this kennel or that kennel, you need to look at the sire/dam/grandsires/granddams and pedigree, It would be best if you could study some mals and first decide what you like or dislike. Then look for a pup from those bloodlines. If you could find half siblings or even siblings from a prior litter that would be better.


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## Annamarie Somich

Most folks get their affordable and bohemian "Loups du Soleil" pup from breedings off of Loup du Soleil dogs. Ot Vitosha has been doing some interesting breedings the last couple of years - infusing some new blood. But don't discount some of the outside breedings with Ot Vitosha dogs, for example Graubaer's Boker.


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## Betsy Nichols

I have worked with Club members at my Schutzhund club who own ot Vitosha Mali's, and their dogs are excellent in all 3 trial requirements. We have somewhat of an advantage in that we are fairly close to that kennel in FL, and several members have also trained with Ivan Balabanov. His puppies are high energy, VERY driven, stable temperament, and not for beginner trainers!


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## Logan Payton

First I wanted to say thank you to those of you who have responded with your experiences and opinions - and to those of you who have PM'd me - thank you as well. As you know these types of decisions are hard to make and bouncing things off others is quite helpful.

We have decided to move forward with Ot Vitosha and have put a deposit on a 2014 breeding. We are very confident that Natalia and Ivan will do a great job selecting an appropriate dog for our goals and lifestyle.

Thanks again. 

LP


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## Lisa Radcliffe

Logan Payton said:


> First I wanted to say thank you to those of you who have responded with your experiences and opinions - and to those of you who have PM'd me - thank you as well. As you know these types of decisions are hard to make and bouncing things off others is quite helpful.
> 
> We have decided to move forward with Ot Vitosha and have put a deposit on a 2014 breeding. We are very confident that Natalia and Ivan will do a great job selecting an appropriate dog for our goals and lifestyle.
> 
> Thanks again.
> Hi Logan, I found your thread interesting, It took me 3 years to decide who I would buy a Mal puppy from! there are several Mal's from both of these kennels in my area that I had a chance to see. What made you chose to go with a Ivan puppy?
> LP


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## Logan Payton

Lisa - 

I made the choice based on an absolute outpouring of current owners of Ivan's dogs gushing over their versatility - and when I say outpouring, I mean it. Through PM's here, on facebook, and other forums. Also, the significant portion of time spent with Natalia Balbanov on the phone has impressed me and helped me along in my decision as well. I like her and have found her to be incredibly kind and sensitive to my needs. Even after extensive email and phone communication, she still asked me to send her a detailed email highlighting desired characteristics in my "perfect" puppy. It comforted me knowing they are taking so much time to match the right dog to my situation/needs/ability. 

Unfortunately, I have been barely able to get ME to respond to an email - which has made my learning more about his program, his goals, his ideal puppy home etc very difficult - other than hearsay I have very little to work with in terms of speaking with him directly, and honestly (I know he is probably very busy so I am taking that into account) it has been a bit of a turn off. 

Logan


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## Stefan Schaub

Logan Payton said:


> Lisa -
> 
> I made the choice based on an absolute outpouring of current owners of Ivan's dogs gushing over their versatility - and when I say outpouring, I mean it. Through PM's here, on facebook, and other forums. Also, the significant portion of time spent with Natalia Balbanov on the phone has impressed me and helped me along in my decision as well. I like her and have found her to be incredibly kind and sensitive to my needs. Even after extensive email and phone communication, she still asked me to send her a detailed email highlighting desired characteristics in my "perfect" puppy. It comforted me knowing they are taking so much time to match the right dog to my situation/needs/ability.
> 
> Unfortunately, I have been barely able to get ME to respond to an email - which has made my learning more about his program, his goals, his ideal puppy home etc very difficult - other than hearsay I have very little to work with in terms of speaking with him directly, and honestly (I know he is probably very busy so I am taking that into account) it has been a bit of a turn off.
> 
> Logan


i think it is a good choice to go with a breeder who have constantly dogs on trials and in the working dog world.
and for sure they are more expensive because he have proof what he is doing,so why not charge a higher fair price. you must decide in life if you want drive Mercedes or Chevy:razz:


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## Lisa Radcliffe

Logan Payton said:


> Lisa -
> 
> I made the choice based on an absolute outpouring of current owners of Ivan's dogs gushing over their versatility - and when I say outpouring, I mean it. Through PM's here, on facebook, and other forums. Also, the significant portion of time spent with Natalia Balbanov on the phone has impressed me and helped me along in my decision as well. I like her and have found her to be incredibly kind and sensitive to my needs. Even after extensive email and phone communication, she still asked me to send her a detailed email highlighting desired characteristics in my "perfect" puppy. It comforted me knowing they are taking so much time to match the right dog to my situation/needs/ability.
> 
> Unfortunately, I have been barely able to get ME to respond to an email - which has made my learning more about his program, his goals, his ideal puppy home etc very difficult - other than hearsay I have very little to work with in terms of speaking with him directly, and honestly (I know he is probably very busy so I am taking that into account) it has been a bit of a turn off.
> 
> Logan


Thank you for your reply! if only the "perfect" puppy could stay that way ) I wish you much fun and luck! but would recommend as others did as well to get out and see some Mal's in person. I got just what I wanted but had a lot of contact with the breeder and know what the dogs in his lines bring, he is very astute in his breeding and is a world competitor, also a IPO judge. In fact Ivan had someone buy one of his puppies for him and uses her for a breeding female. Could not tell you about any of his other lines but this one is for sure not for beginners )


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