# Urban area searches



## Gregg Tawney (Apr 4, 2006)

I have a question for those that do area searches for suspects in areas that have other homes, apartment buildings, and other non-involved people. 

I currently do area searches on a long line for the most part unless we are searching backyards and I have confirmed with the homeowner that no one is supposed to be in the backyard. 

There is a local agency that is in a primarily urban environment that is working towards doing their area searches off line. I was wondering if anyone else does this type of searching. 

How many of you do off line searching and why? How many of you do on line searching and why? Also, I would be curious to see how others do their searches in other countries as well. 

Thanks, Gregg


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## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

In the urban areas of the county I worked in, we always conducted area searches on-line . The number one reason, because it was required by our S.O.P. but I believe that there are advantages and disadvantages to using either method. I don't know about anyone else, but there had been more then a few times when we thought we had a suspect contained in a specific area and our dogs and the suspect proved us wrong  I felt the advantages of on-line searches allowed me total control of the dog, less chances of him over-shooting turns, much easier to read the dog at night especially when they start pulling into harness/collar. It also ensured that I was in fairly close proximity to back my dog up . One of the disadvantages is that usually when the dog starts pulling into the harness - the suspect is close and I just may be in the suspects shooting range. 

I have conducted area searches off lead primarily business areas, jump and runs in country type areas. Jump and runs of course are usually by some type of roadway, which can present another hazard for the dog off-line and out of view of handler - getting hit by a car. I did notice that my dog overshot turns for a longer distance off lead - could be just a training issue but off lead his speed was much faster and he air-scented more. Him overshooting turns made me realize that I needed to stay further back until I saw him rededicate, as I of course did not want to take a chance of walking past the suspect who has taken to the ground. Because of his speed and my lack of being able to match his, it made it hard to be at an advantage to back him up.

There are definitely pro's and con's to each method....here is hoping that one way or the other will never be dictated by a Supreme Court Ruling


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

Not for us. Only on a leash, and this is used only to allow the dog to alert from a safe distance and give a general sense of direction and/or location. We don't even do off leash for single structures that are reasonably well contained...unless, etc. etc.

We don't let the dogs jump fences or cross "yards" unless etc. etc., and we only do that if there's a clear indication we need to go through that "yard". Having said that, we don't have that many yards. It's more like open areas. Here most people that have yards, have high walls around them.

Whenever our dog's are off leash and hunting, they're expected to go bite a person we are "reasonably" sure is not armed, or is very high value and the opportunity is there. We don't do hold and bark either, for that matter.

For a larger area search that involves more than one structure, more manpower is involved, and the thought process is more complex.

Why do you ask?

BTW, welcome back, Happy New Year, Merry Christmas...and if you had a birthday in there someplace...I hope you had a happy one of those too.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: I felt the advantages of on-line searches allowed me total control of the dog, less chances of him over-shooting turns,

So who was doing the tracking???? You or the dog????

There is a beutiful episode of Dog the bounty hunter where the Lakewood PD searched an area and then the bounty hunters went and got the guy.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:


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## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

I guess I need to clarify, but I did win a bet so thanks Jeff :wink: 

If you look at what I posted when I have him off-line I stated that he is usually moving alot faster and would overshoot turns (by air-scenting more) by a longer distance. On-line he moves a bit slower and does not overshoot the turns as much. Damn, police dogs aren't perfect - go figure.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Don't take this badly, but it sounds like your training was........you know.

The idea is to catch the guy, and you controling what he does wrong in your mind, affects training. 

I have seen drug dogs that go through the motions while watching their handler for cues that they are right, and tracking dogs do the same.

For all you know, you found the guy.  

I would win that bet. =D>


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## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

My mistake, I actually responded to this question like I would if I was talking to another K-9 Officer who has worked the streets. 
The control has to do with potential liabilities while working in an urban area, not with his actual tracking. Line communication, especially in low light situations, is soooo important. I never thought of line communication as cueing the dog more as communicating questions to the dog and having him respond/answer through the line. He actually had a very good record, not perfect though :wink:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: My mistake, I actually responded to this question like I would if I was talking to another K-9 Officer who has worked the streets. 

No, just someone who has trained k9's and seen them come back to me after they fouled up the training over and over and over.

Like it is so hard to find people, some rare skill. I am definately more qualified than a cop in the finding someone dept.

All of the people I found were armed as well and had permission to kill me.

*[MOD EDIT: Being Aggressive Doesn't Enable Nobody...lighten up, Francis]*

You don't ask questions of a dog with a line, or any other way. Overshooting turns is definately a training issue, possibly caused by bad line handling.


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## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

It really was not my intent to play macho at all. I have a bad habit though of trying to answer someone's questions or giving my view by abbreviating my answers to where sometimes my meaning gets lost without a few paragraphs worth of posts. 

No doubt you trained alot of police dogs - different trainers have different methods. I prefer line communication, it is what I was taught and it worked out well for us.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

So what was the question again???


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

Jeff...regrettably, you missed the forest for the tree. Do you have an informed opinion on the subject as a whole, as opposed to dedicating a few posts to knocking someone else's?

At least for me, it would be interesting to get back on topic.


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Jeff...and Lacey...you guys need to take a break from each other. Lacey is well-qualified to speak to this based on personal experience. So she should not be attacked. Jeff has a load of training experience in many different situations that's comparable to about anyone on this board, so he may very well have contributions to make here, too. Might suggest both of you stop posting responses to each other for awhile? 

This personal back and forth stuff can be fixed easily: quit going after each other. Quit instigating it, quit responding to it. Stop knocking breeds to knock them, even if you are right. Stop using the royal "you" to cover for personal shots, even if you are right. Stop trying to out-Marine each other, even if you have more chest hair. Stop responding just to respond to either an obvious or perceived attack. A forum member is not your dog, s/he will probably not go into submission based on your verbal agility (unless I am the one doing the verbalizing, natch. But I have many, many years of forum training under my belt and I understand that newbs need training :twisted. 

Somewhere on a frozen ice shelf in Manitoba, Liz Monty is giggling to herself.

Just ease up, not just you too, but everybody. PM a moderator if you have an issue.

And yes, it's an interesting thread, let's get back on topic.


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## Amanda Layne (Aug 9, 2006)

Woody Taylor said:


> Somewhere on a frozen ice shelf in Manitoba, Liz Monty is giggling to herself.



Heheheheheheh :lol: :lol: :lol: Sorry couldnt help but laugh about that one.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> ..... AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:



This is frikkin' BORING. The stupid personal bashing is absolutely BORING, to anyone in the middle of what was an interesting thread. The PMs from the people reading what started out to be an interesting thread are BORING, too. So knock it off. 

This thread, all threads.

P.S. There you go -- a kindly note from Woody (  ) and a no-patience-left one from me. This cannot bode well.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Woody Taylor said:


> J..... it's an interesting thread, let's get back on topic.



=D>


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## Gregg Tawney (Apr 4, 2006)

Okay.....the reason that I brought this up was because I do the vast majority of my searches on line. I am way too paranoid with my new dog (Rombo) to let him search freely and run the potential of an accidental bite by somebody that is in the wrong place at the wrong time. Maybe after some time and my dog gets more experience, I will feel comfortable with him searching off lead. Till then, he is on lead. I wanted to see if anyone had any success in doing off lead searches in a populated area. 

I have heard of two local agencies that do off line searching in an urban environment. They let the dog search and they follow and direct. Their belief is that the opposition reflex works against them during the search and it hampers the dogs searching. I know, it comes back to training but that is what they do. This seems risky to me so I wanted to know if others elect to do this type of searching. I do it on a limited basis, usually searching a residence or some yards. We do a lot of yard to yard searches. As a side note, I have also heard from a handler that they are going to search with the dog while the dog does not wear a collar. The handler claims that a suspect may grab the collar while the dog is biting him and gain an advantage. 

Jeff, you asked who is doing the searching the handler or the dog. Well, we both are searching as we are a team. Can a dog by pass a suspect that is downwind? Yes, it happens. They are not perfect nor is the handler so yes we make mistakes and hopefully learn from them. Thats what makes this job fun. There is always something to learn. 

Lacey, We have similar searching habits. I agree if I am in fresh pursuit of a suspect and it is a wooded area I may be more inclined to let my dog search off lead. Unfortunately most of our searches are not in a wooded area and I am starting the search ten to fifteen minutes after the fact. I am usually searching backyard to backyard. 

Andres...thanks. Been busy. Changed departments. Moved. Haven fun workin my new dog.


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

Here we don't have much "liability" issues, otherwise it would be my primary concern...

But in addition to liability, a loose dog can move too far ahead, and come up on a suspect suddenly...and too soon. The suspect may be armed and you don't know it. The dog may come up onto another dog-aggressive dog. If you're looking at the dog, and concentrating on keeping the dog under control, you may be a bit slower responding to a dangerous situation directed against you and yours. Controlling the dog off lead implies a series of "down" commands, and other assorted noises, which perhaps are undesirable, in that these sounds are projecting YOUR presence and position, and turning YOU into a target. And there are a bunch more related (IMO) less than wise situations you could find yourself exposed to. If you're going to err, let it be on the side of caution.

What would be the "upside" for off-leash searches in a multi-structure urban environment (besides the speculation that a dog's desire/concentration is a bit diminished and hence speed is reduced)?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

If you are not sure that the dog will bite the right person, then maybe this should be a training scenario.

It would be pretty easy, two decoys at the end of an easy track, bite the wrong guy, (who should be closer) and the world sucks. Bite the right guy,(tracklayer) and it is steak dinner.

*MOD EDIT: That's enough. If you have constructive training advice to offer, fine. But this bullying will stop immediately. It will not be tolerated anymore. None of us are in on your joke at this point--particularly those of us who actually like you, Jeff, and man do I hope your rants are a joke--and all of us are officially wasting time with your posturing. It will stop. /Woody *


There are many training scenarios that should be used to make sure that the dog is actually going to target the person you are looking for, and not some poor guy that is coming home from a Mt Dew run from the circle K. I have personal experience with that one.

This could really help in cases where the description is sort of vague. I can imagine that this is the case most of the time. I also know quite a few people that are truely terrified of a dog, especially one with a cop behind it, and will run for dear life. Will your dog decide that this is a quicker way to the bite???


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Again, this is a good thread, let's keep on going with it.


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## Gregg Tawney (Apr 4, 2006)

Jeff - I like where you are going with the training scenerio.....its kinda like adding distractions throughout a track or search.....my problem is this..... lets say that he is getting close to source and an uninvolved person comes around a corner, or out from their house then at this point they are going to get bit unless I can redirect my dog quickly. As you know, things happen very fast (sometimes faster then it takes to yell "no" or "down") and I am not sure that I can expect my dog to verify by odor that he is about to bite the right guy. It happens fast and when he gets closer to source he gets pretty intense. It is a lot different then an article search where he is calmer. 

For example....if I have a dog trailing for a while and he gets within 5 or 10 meters of the suspect can I expect him to come across another person, have him sniff him and continue to source.....I have scene my dog ignore peremiter untis and other officers (he has grwon accustomed to seeing them standing around)but a surprised and startled person that jumps back as we get close......Im not so sure. 

Andres- the thought behind the search off line, I think, is they are claiming that the dog searches better and without the handler interfering with the dog and pulling him off odor. As you know, some handlers for police departments are not natural dog handlers and can have difficulty reading and trusting thier dogs.


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

> As you know, some handlers for police departments are not natural dog handlers and can have difficulty reading and trusting thier dogs.


Gregg...with all due respect...ALL THE MORE REASON TO KEEP THE DOG ON A LINE.

...specially for SEARCH in a populated, multi-structure urban environment.

Often there's no time, and too many variables.

BTW, not even Jeff could come up with the training scenarios needed...
 

...now...if your dog is not a biting dog, THAT'S a different story altogether. But I think so far we're talking high (fight) drive, sharp"ish", forward STREET dog, right?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I've not gotten in on this because of my total lack of expierience in training street dogs.
I will comment on Tim's comment about "Some handlers for police depts are not natural handlers and can have difficulty reading and trusting their dogs". 
IMHO, this is the root of 99.9% of all dog training. PD, compaion dog, down to the foo foo, furbaby, house pet. 
A person can learn how to handle a dog. some will do a better job then others. 
The vast majority of these people will never be dog trainers, by any streach.
I think we've all seen dog owners that have never formally trained, yet have always had total control over their dogs. Others spend a life time in training situations and never get a clue.
MOST training issues boil down to this. Again, JMHO!
Sorry to go off topic. This is just one of my pet peeves.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

seems to me that there might be some mixing up of terminology in this thread. 

we don't teach our dogs to "track or trail" off leash. tracking/trailing is done when there is a scent pad or trail to work from (i.e. person was last seen running here type thing). in that case the dog is expected to track/trail THAT SCENT. other people, dogs, animals, (insert your distractor here), shouldn't matter on these. an off-leash search is just that. it's a seek and destroy mission. the dog isn't seeking and destroying a known scent (track/trail) because for whatever reason there was no "last seen running" or scent pad/scent article to work from.

now there are times that when the dog is on an off-leash area search, he picks up a scent and ends up trailing that scent, but for the most part, that is self taught and the dog will still probably go after anyone at that point.

this is why i agree with gregg. liability is just to great to be doing off-leash searches in urban areas. given the choice, i'd always prefer to work the dog off-leash (for many reasons), but most of the time, safety/liability prevents this...


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## Dan Reiter (May 12, 2006)

I will give my input on leash/no leash. I spent a week last year at Police K-9 Tracking Seminar put on by Tracy Boling "Vantosa Kennels". Therye was a number of different departments from across country, primarily Shepherds a Mal and a Bloodhound. All tracked with leads the thing I found interesting was one departments standard procedure was short leads only (8') and fur saver reason being stay close with dog and quick access to weapon. Most of their searches are hot 15 Minutes to 45 minutes responce time in urban setting (lot of hard surface) and tracks tended to be short on average.
I quickly noted how their dogs did just fine and were close tight trackers. So I dont think the lead thing has much impact if dog selection is correct to begin with and used on hot short tracks. The dog with proper selection and drives will litterly pull you down the track to begin with in this situation. However would not be same situation in long old tracks so it realy gets down to what environment do you need to train for.
As far as off lead Tracy gave Demo of a dog named Jet with Wake County Sheriff Dept. handler Tom Hawley (this guy just loves tracking and it showed) anyway they train dog on building searches with the whistle so they dont have to use voices dog halts instantly on clearing rooms etc and continues when cued again. Like anything the money is in the details dog selection, its training background what environment will most likely be used etc.

Dan Reiter


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I think that most dogs will show signs when they are close. using these clues will help in training, as you can do a lot of distractions before this body language starts to occur.

I think that once the dog starts figuring out that there will be people that are not to be molested during tracking, you can start to put distractions closer to and in the area where he starts to show this type of body language.

Tracking, more than anything is a numbers game. The more weird tracks and scenarios, the better they get. The more creative, the better. Even dogs that are highly driven can start to figure out things you would just not train.

This one is probably pretty important.


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## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

I train my teams to track/ felony area search exclusively off lead. On most misdemeanors they work on lead however. I believe in letting the dog work unrestricted free to use his abilities as natural as possible. just my philosophy.


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

Phil...do you do this in a multi-structure, populated, urban area?


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## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

For the most part, yes. For tracking we do a lot of crosstracking plus distraction training and a lot of the training tracks are done on line to proof the K-9 and ensure he is correctly reading the track. Most of our directed searches are done in back yards,storage facilities, etc: about all are fenced in. We have yet to have a negitive incident yet, not to say however that it couldn't or will not happen.


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

Phil...are you referring to training, or actual street use?



> As a side note, I have also heard from a handler that they are going to search with the dog while the dog does not wear a collar. The handler claims that a suspect may grab the collar while the dog is biting him and gain an advantage.


What's the general view regarding this?
We use collars, because WE use them a lot. From a cost/benefit analysis perspective, I think it's more useful to have a collar on the dog, than problematic if a suspect grabs it.
More often than not...a dog does NOT get a bite.


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## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

Actual, I was stating we do a lot of proofing to ensure track surety on actual calls as we mostly work off lead. I utilize a harness that is covered with reflector tape and a strobe light on the back to keep the K-9 insight when jogging after him along the search. We utilized this harness decades ago in the Northwest it has become a popular item in the last few years. I remove the choker when searching also. My partners have been in several good fights upon making contact with the perp and I do not want them to have any kind of advantage over my partner if a fight should ensue.


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## Gregg Tawney (Apr 4, 2006)

Hey Phil - 

Have you ever had a bite when you dog did not want to let go when commanded to do so? If this happened would it not be a problem if he had no collar on? Our experiences are that a suspect will most of the time simply give up but when they decide to fight they usually punch, kick or pull on the dogs head. I have never seen a suspect pull up on the collar and attempt to choke the dog. If this were to happen I would be in the fight with my dog. I am with Andres when he said the benifits outway the negatives. At least that has been my experience. 

Also,did you Mention that most of you searches are in fenced areas or did I read this wrong?

I am asking these things because your searching style is different then mine and I am trying to compare them. 

Thanks 

Hey Selena - What is the Dutch view on these topics. Does Dick ever deploy his dog off lead in an urban area or without a collar.


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## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

On a few occasions they have not released on the first command as the bad guy was still resisting but for the most part they have outed when instructed, I agree also it is just a routine I got into decades ago place harness on remove chain. We do the majority of our searches in fenced yards, buisnesses also but I do clear open areas too.


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

We don't use chokers...only a simple, flat, leather collar.


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## Gregg Tawney (Apr 4, 2006)

It seens every dept is different but I usually have a harness, longline, and an e-collar. (The e-collar is snug so it would be difficult for a suspect to get their hands inside of it) Our agency allows us to have e-collars on our dogs while on the street......we certify yearly without them but my dog wears one during deployments....probably another thread one day :lol:


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

thanks for this last night gregg. it feels much better today...


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## Gregg Tawney (Apr 4, 2006)

Hey....I think it looks kinda nice!!! I have heard that chicks dig scars 8) 

Thanks for taking one for the team although next time if you could allow the dog to improve his grips before you tell the handler to remove the dog it would be appreciated.... :wink: 

Ya....I know.....another training scenario gone wrong. Sometimes the price for realistic training......


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Ouch, jesus. Ignore the other thread, Tim, don't hit your forehead. :lol: Nice shot there.


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

Was that scar created to put something in there?


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Woody Taylor said:


> Ouch, jesus. Ignore the other thread, Tim, don't hit your forehead. :lol: Nice shot there.


haha. that's not me. i did get bit in the head last night at gregg's training, but only got some teeth rake marks. you don't think that dog's teeth are harder than my head do you? :lol:


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

I was just thinking that either:

1. you have a serious flyer on your hands with a brutal underbite
2. Gregg set you up with the old "decoy comes up from the sewer hole" gag
3. you donked your head on your truck hatch, like I do every effing time I open it. Like, donked it by sprinting into it.

Who's head is it? Head cuts suck. They bleed way more than they ought to and generally freak out people. I got a nice run of them one night in wilder days and drove onto Tinker AFB to get help (dad was still in AF at that point). It's a great way to make sure you get a free MP escort to the hospital. :lol:


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

i have no idea whose head that is. it was a random google image search for "head wound" result. 

the scenario was a little dicey to start with. i almost got bit on the head by the first dog. the second dog did bite me on the head. after that, the excercize was done on leash. 

it was an interesting scenario.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Tim Martens said:


> Woody Taylor said:
> 
> 
> > Ouch, jesus. Ignore the other thread, Tim, don't hit your forehead. :lol: Nice shot there.
> ...


It's the layer of cover that's tore up not the hard head........This thread is good but this takes the icing off the cake. :lol:


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## Gregg Tawney (Apr 4, 2006)

Hey Woody - I like where your going with the sewer hole scenario.....maybe we can run that one on Tim's next visit.  

The scenerario last night was simple. Tim lays on the floor in a bite suite and we put a blanket over him and encourage the dog to engage a suspect that is hiding under a soft cover that they can bite through such as a pile of clothes, insulation, leaves, etc. 

We figured there was a risk of Tim getting bit in the head or feet so he put his feet under a small end table and his head under the other small end table. What we did not count on was the fact that Tim was sweating profusely and his body odor was emanating from the end table that his head was under. The rest of his body was covered by the suit so the source was his head. Sorta like a smoke stack :lol: 

Well, you can guess what happened. The dogs tried to get to source and the second dog shoved his head under the table and lifted it up scraping Tim's head with his K-9's. The handler reacted quickly and grabbed the dog but not before Tim got a little slobber on his head. As soon as the dog touched Tim's head he jumped up screaming something about his modeling career being over and he ran to the nearest mirror. It was rather embarassing :roll: 

Anyway, since we did not have a good helmet that would protect his head we did the rest of the dogs on line. All in all it was a good night of training.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Gregg Tawney said:


> .... The scenerario last night was simple. Tim lays on the floor in a bite suite and we put a blanket over him and encourage the dog to engage a suspect that is hiding under a soft cover that they can bite through such as a pile of clothes, insulation, leaves, etc. .... We figured there was a risk of Tim getting bit in the head or feet so he put his feet under a small end table and his head under the other small end table. What we did not count on was the fact that Tim was sweating profusely and his body odor was emanating from the end table that his head was under. The rest of his body was covered by the suit so the source was his head. Sorta like a smoke stack :lol: ... Well, you can guess what happened. The dogs tried to get to source and the second dog shoved his head under the table and lifted it up scraping Tim's head with his K-9's. The handler reacted quickly and grabbed the dog but not before Tim got a little slobber on his head. As soon as the dog touched Tim's head he jumped up screaming something about his modeling career being over and he ran to the nearest mirror. It was rather embarassing :roll: .... Anyway, since we did not have a good helmet that would protect his head we did the rest of the dogs on line. All in all it was a good night of training.


I think we would benefit from video.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I have to come and train with you guys. Anyone that goofy to not think he was gonna get it.....On the other hand, the dogs are cueing off of the human scent, and not the suit, so you have a bonus there.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Gregg Tawney said:


> Hey Woody - I like where your going with the sewer hole scenario.....maybe we can run that one on Tim's next visit.
> 
> The scenerario last night was simple. Tim lays on the floor in a bite suite and *we put a blanket over him and encourage the dog to engage a suspect that is hiding under a soft cover that they can bite through such as a pile of clothes, insulation, leaves, etc. *


the story is nice, but you didn´t reached your traininggoal this way?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Technically if Tim got bit in the head.............


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## Gregg Tawney (Apr 4, 2006)

Well, the primary objective was to have the dogs search off line in a residence and in doing so they would find Tim on their own and bite without encouragement or interference from the handler. Once we went on line, the dogs found Tim and kept wanting to work the odor to his head so we had to restrain them with the line and give then the command to "vast". (bite) The dogs were able to work through it and engaged Tim through the blanket but it was done with some encouragement from the handler. Originally, I wanted to test the dogs and see how they dealt with the situation on their own. 

The interesting thing we did prior to that was an outside area search with a decoy (Not Tim) buried under leaves. It confused some of the dogs. It is interesting how dependent they get on seeing what they bite before they bite it.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

I wouldn't want to bite something I couldn't see either. :lol:


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I have to come and train with you guys. Anyone that goofy to not think he was gonna get it.....


i thought there was a slim possibility. what i didn't count on was how dirty gregg's dogs are (especially gregg's). had i known that, i wouldn't have done it... :wink:


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

...blanket, leaves, laundry, garbage, cardboard, plastic, shower curtain, clothes in a closet, more than one suit, sanitary napkins...no, maybe not THAT one...

:lol: :lol: :lol: 

...too much fun.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Coming into this late (I've been fighting the Ecollar war elsewhere) but I noticed right away that there seemed to me at least, that the thread took a turn and then went in that direction. Perhaps it's just semantics. 

Gregg asked in the original post about searching for "suspects in areas" and then Lacey responded by talking about tracking/trailing and having control. 

Two points, the first is that a leash/line does NOT give control. It gives restraint. If you're concerned that you don't have control and dont' know what your dog will do if you count on a leash to prevent a bad bite you could just be walking into a trap. If you dog goes around a corner, behind a bush, into a storage shed you can't see him and you can't control what he does. 

Second, I'm not a big fan of using a leash at any time for virtually any kind of a search. There are exceptions but they're few and very far between. They deny the dog one of the primary reasons that we use them, their agility and speed. Just as important, perhaps more so , they bring the handler to a dangerous place, close to the handler at the time the find is made. If the suspect that you're looking for is armed or has armed himself (I think it's safest to act as if every suspect is armed until you know better) the handler is dragged by the leash right into the kill zone; not a good place to be at the moment that the suspect realizes that he's about to be captured. 

Generally when doing yard to yard searches I have a couple of officers knocking on doors ahead of the K-9 team, notifying people that we're doing searches in their back yards, getting keys to gates to allow entry, asking if there are any animals in the back yards or if anyone lives in any outbuildings there. They tell the owners to stay inside. Before the search is started, an announcement is made from a helicopter if available, if not then from the outside speakers on cars. Given the atmosphere under which we work these days it's a good idea if these announcements are recorded from the far side of the perimeter from where they're being made, ensuring that they've been heard inside the perimeter. 

In areas where there are apartments or other multiple dwellings the same sort of process is done. We don't knock on doors but we do visually and orally clear areas before the dog is sent to search them. Then the dog is sent out for a short search and recalled or downed at the far end of it to enable the team to move up with a higher degree of safety than it the dog was not here. If someone comes out of the building or moves around in the bushes the dog will give the team notice of this. The person can then be ordered into the open and taken into custody. If, for example, it's a resident going to his car, he'll be ordered into the open, identified and then dealt with. 

If a track or trail is called for I prefer that the dog be trained to work off leash. Primarily this is to allow the handler and the team to use cover and concealment as they follow the dog. 

As far as overshooting turns, if you teach the dog to slow down this problem will take care of itself. In the perfect world this would be taken care of before the dog was deployed.


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## Greg Long (Mar 27, 2006)

Dan Reiter said:


> As far as off lead Tracy gave Demo of a dog named Jet with Wake County Sheriff Dept. handler Tom Hawley (this guy just loves tracking and it showed) anyway they train dog on building searches with the whistle so they dont have to use voices dog halts instantly on clearing rooms etc and continues when cued again. Like anything the money is in the details dog selection, its training background what environment will most likely be used etc.


A bit off topic and a shameless plug but that dog "Jet" is a half brother to my Czech male "Blaster".

A bit more on topic..this is a little like we were shown by D. Yarnall at a seminar.Almost all the PSD teams didnt do it that way though for their cert.


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## Dan Reiter (May 12, 2006)

*Greg Long wrote:*


> A bit off topic and a shameless plug but that dog "Jet" is a half brother to my Czech male "Blaster".


 Just shows how small the dog world can be, indeed he was Czech very nice Dark Sable with ton of drive.
I owned one for a while (have seen several of these in past year all seem great dogs). I do not recall but I assume has the Grim P in the bloodlines somewhere just by looks & temperament.



Dan Reiter


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## Greg Long (Mar 27, 2006)

This is the dam of Jet Vom Ramhausen
http://vomramhausen.com/females/freda.html

This is a pic of Jet
http://vomramhausen.com/gallery//displayimage.php?pos=-2

This is Jet's sire and also my Blaster's sire
http://www.realworkingdogs.com/brit.htm

I have no shame at all I guess..here is Blaster..  









Sorry to go off topic.


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## Dan Reiter (May 12, 2006)

> I have no shame at all I guess..here is Blaster..


He looks great to me, I never go for looks I have had Czech, West German, DDR shepherds in past Currently have OT Vitosha Malinois, A west german showline ( with more IPO,FH & SCH back ground than most claimed work dogs) So I have to put up with the sport people comments.
Until they see him in action. I had pick of litter out of Italy from Kraftwerk in 2002 on very nice background dog the one that tested out the best happened to be the long hair that is the one I selected. Unfortunately had enlarged asophagas so had to put to sleep at 14 weeks. Anyway definately taking this off topic. 

More on topic: One of the security contractors in Iraq I am familiar with also uses the off lead search dogs with whistle as described earlier.

Dan Reiter


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