# The raw controversey ...



## Ji Woslager (Feb 25, 2011)

Previously I fed a kibble and supplemented raw, but this time I want to go all raw.

Im well read on the subject but geezus ... I swear every other group you take information from has different opinions.

Of course many base their feeding schedule on Billinghurst's books. Along that thought process the ideal bone ratio is close to 1:1 .... 50% bone 50% meat if I remember correctly. Its been awhile since Ive read that book so correct me if Im wrong. Also I remember him talking about chicken being just fine as a staple. with other things substitiuted in as available.

I start talking with some others online, and they are dead set against that high of bone content. Stating that it needs to be no more then 10% bone and raw red meat has to be fed regularly and not only that .. but needs to be a big portion of the diet. So which is it? 50% bone to meat ratio or much less with 10% being target....... or something else entirely? lol

Now, Ive never went full raw so I am concerned about the dog missing out on things it may need.

Preferably, Ild like to use chicken quarters as a staple. Heres what I'ld have planned in any given week. What do you guys think ... should I worry about anything major being left out or do you think this should be sufficient.

Mon

AM Beef Liver, chicken hearts, gizzards (what ever other offal I can find)
PM Chicken quarter

Tues

AM yogurt, egg, kelp powder, C, B, and E suppliments, ACV
PM Pork Necks, ground chuck

Wed

AM Sardines
PM Chicken quarter

Thurs

AM Beef liver, chicken hearts, gizzards (whatever other offal I can find)
PM boneless red meat of some kind

Friday

AM Whole mackeral head and all
PM chicken quarter

Saturday

AM sardines
PM Pork ribs

Sunday 

AM yogurt, egg, kelp powder, C, B, E and ACV.
PM Red meat of some kind, bone in or no bone.


What do you guys think of something like this. Should I have need to worry about missing out on something important?? Surely this would be better then a traditional kibble diet ....

Mainly people seem to be against the heavy use of chicken quarters. I could substitute chicken backs, necks, or wings .... Either way I can get them all for about the same price but I would like to use chicken as the staple as it is more inexpensive and readily available. 

Im looking into other sources as well, I found a goat breeder a few hours away so that will be something to look into but for now I just want to make sure Im not missing something as Ive never went completely raw.

Thanks for the critique!!


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## Ji Woslager (Feb 25, 2011)

Sorry about the multiple posts! I edited my posting a couple times and it required me to re-log in to post ... somehow it created new threads.

My apologies mods if you could delete those other threads that would be great.

Thanks...


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Hi Ji, I can see you are interested in making sure your dog's diet is balanced over time, which is a legitimate concern. Unfortunately the only way to be sure of that is to get pretty exact volumes and run it through nutrition software. My main comment would be that I would like to see a source of veggies/fruits on there either through green tripe and/or a veggie mix. The antioxidants, vitamins, and minerals from things like super foods like blueberries, colored peppers, spinach, tomatoes, sweet potatoes (these should be cooked first), etc are a really good thing to add and as I like a holistic approach to food, they probably act in ways that are different from supplements. There's also dehydrated mixes like The Honest Kitchen that has a veggie mix you can use. Green tripe is also another thing that is, in my opinion, not an option for those who want to feed prey model. Wild canids don't order a box of cleaned chicken backs from the co-op or a 10 lbs of chicken quarters from Wal-Mart with a little bit of liver on the side.


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## chad paquin (Apr 16, 2010)

I add some sojo veggies. They are dehidr. so i make a 3 day batch. Mix in all that you said. Do some premade raw to mix up protiens. Been useing ansewers a plus and like it .


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Is this a dog or a puppy? How old?


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## Ji Woslager (Feb 25, 2011)

Thanks a ton for the input! Its an adult dog, a 2 year old rescue... aprox. 75 lbs. So Im shooting for about 1.5-2lbs per day and is about what hes been eating now. Hes been switched for about two weeks and doing great, no loose stools. He was hard to switch over at first I had to starve him out to make the switch (Ive never had to do that before) but now hes taking pretty much whatever I give him.

Its certainly no problem to do a veggie mix. We eat super healthy as it is and always have left overs. Pretty much all those things you listed, spinach, blueberries, sweet potatoes, etc, etc are always on hand so its not a problem to give some to him.

Also, I havent found a source for green tripe yet but I have to admit I havent really looked to hard. 

He's been taking his RMB's at night so AM is a good time for such items as tripe, offal, and veggie mix's.

So I have a couple additional questions for you guys.

1) Do you think adding tripe 2 x per week, veggie mix 1 x per week, fish 2 x per week, and offal 2 x per week in the AM, would be enough to cover any deficienies? Then the various RMB's in the evening.

2) Whats the deal with the bone to meat ratio? 10%? 50% Somewhere in between? Where do you guys land approximately?

3) Is it ok to use chicken as a staple as Im outlining here or do I need more emphasis on red meat. It seems most people use chicken as a staple so Im not sure how important it is. My guess is that if I can add a different type of meat twice per week that is probably a reasonable way to do things, with chicken making up the majority of the RMB's??


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

When I fed more raw, I either did Solid Gold canned green tripe or frozen green tripe that our local pet supply store carried from greentripe.com. There are other companies that do canned green tripe too. The amount of bone that needs to be in the meat is going to differ on several factors, including how much calcium is in the rest of the ingredients (found in eggs if they eat the shell, yogurt, spinach, etc) which is why the best answer would come from running the whole diet through nutrition software. Then you can tweak based on its recommendations. I'll probably be able to do that in a few months.  

Even though it's cheaper to do chicken backs/quarters, I prefer doing more a whole prey approach and would get whole chickens and turkeys and cut the chickens in half and the turkeys into quarters and feed that so they get a more physiologic mix of meat/bone (keeping in mind that commercial poultry is much meatier than wild fowl). Plus I'd give each of the dogs a piece of the chicken or turkey's liver, heart, gizzard, and kidneys. You can do the same with meat rabbits. I do think it is good to vary the protein sources somewhat (I have fed beef, lamb, chicken, turkey, duck, goat, rabbit, various kinds of fish, and so on), but make sure that you reserve at least a protein source or two that you won't feed in case an issue does come up and you need it to test for allergies with a diet trial.


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## Tracy Davis-Sullivan (May 10, 2010)

Ji Woslager said:


> Im well read on the subject but geezus ... I swear every other group you take information from has different opinions.
> 
> Of course many base their feeding schedule on Billinghurst's books. Along that thought process the ideal bone ratio is close to 1:1 .... 50% bone 50% meat if I remember correctly. Its been awhile since Ive read that book so correct me if Im wrong. Also I remember him talking about chicken being just fine as a staple. with other things substitiuted in as available.


Most folks think Bilinghurst's idea about that high of bone content isn't good. I'm probably at 15-20% depending on what's in the freezer.

IMO, chicken is fine as a primary protein. I do encourage folks to always be trying to hunt out other protein since raw is really about variety. Also, if you haven't already - look into a freezer and start checking out places like Carnivore Feed Supplier list, Asian markets, and grocery store circulars



> Mon
> AM Beef Liver, chicken hearts, gizzards (what ever other offal I can find)


holy possible diarrhea batman! 

Some dogs really struggle to handle offal and some dogs don't. Also, some dogs HATE liver. My older girl will not eat it straight. I grind it up and add it to a morning meal.

You may want to consider combining your Monday and Tuesday AM meals. Add in some ground fruits/veggies if you are going to go that direction. If money's tight, I'll cook up some ground brown rice to stretch this meal.

Mine get an AM meal of ground meat/fat/offal mix, veggies and fruit, and some supplements. I make it in bulks and freeze it. We also save all leftovers/edges/etc of fruits and veggies in our house. Toss them in the freezer and use that to make the grind (plus some other stuff we get cheap).

Besides that, you proposed menu looks fine. You should consider feeding one protein (chicken) for the first week. A lot of dogs need to be eased into the raw thing and temporarily increasing bone while keeping change to a minimum helps 1) get the dog used to eating raw and 2) keeps them from diarrhea. Other than that, I really try to aim for 40% "other" proteins. Sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesn't.

Good luck!


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

The issue I ran into was with a dog that became allergic to chicken. other sources were too much trouble and too expeinsive.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

no controversy here its simple Dogs are built to eat meat, bone, cartiledge, hide, fat etc etc. People have been conditioned to feed their dogs chicken feed "because thats what you feed a dog"

*heres our simple recipe*:
ground whole chicken bone and all (or other meats if we have them)
raw egg
plain yogurt
ground dark leafy greens and carrots
oranges, apples ground with the meat
flaxseed oil
occasional lightly cooked oats
table scraps that are healthy

Most of the formulas for how much to feed you can disregard. Feed the dog and watch and adjust accordingly. There are way to many variations in dogs excercise levels, metabolism, etc etc 

what will you get?? smaller tighter stools, shiny coats, more energy, faster recovery, tighter focus and much much more. 

You can contact me if you would like more details.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

And fish oil (and the E that I add when giving oil supplements)....

The conversion mechanism of shorter- to long-chain Omega 3s (like ALA from flax to DHA and EPA) is inefficient at best in humans and close to zero in dogs.

On the modern foodscape, for most of us, marine products are the efficient and reliable source for long-chain 3s for the dog.


I provide protein variety in the added muscle meat; I do use poultry for most of the RMBs.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Brian Anderson said:


> ... no controversy here ...


None here, either. :smile:

There's a bit of a learning curve, but after all these years I can say that it's worth it to me.




PS
It gets so easy, so streamlined, as time goes by. So does the sourcing. I thinkk folks who have been doing it for a few years will agree that it's like radar :lol: : cans of sardines for a dollar as an end-cap in a discount drug store (score!), the trimmings at the farmers' market (produce and the odd bits of fresh fish from the boat guys filleting them at the farmers market); the natural food store where the butcher will save the Smart Chicken backs in the freezer for me; a big baggy in the freezer where such things as celery tops and blueberries and vegetable leftovers live until I moosh them up all at once ....


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Connie Sutherland said:


> None here, either. :smile:
> 
> There's a bit of a learning curve, but after all these years I can say that it's worth it to me.
> 
> ...


Connie a lady from Cali turned me on to natural feeding and I tried it and I will never feed the sack again. The difference in our dogs is night and day.... it really is (as Im sure you know too)


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Brian Anderson said:


> Connie a lady from Cali turned me on to natural feeding and I tried it and I will never feed the sack again. *The difference in our dogs is night and day.... it really is (as Im sure you know too*)


I do indeed know. I will never feed "the sack" again, either. 

It's very doable to feed good "sack" these days, but now I have no reason to; fresh food (how can I beat fresh real food?) sourcing has become second nature.

There IS a learning curve. I think that "the sack" beats a random screwed-up-calcium raw diet hands down. I don't even think that growing puppies are where I would learn raw feeding.

But all those disclaimers made, yes, I'm sold and have been for many years.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

FYI..feeding the sack is not a very good term to use because it may confuse some people who are just starting.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

It is interesting that people say the difference in feeding raw is remarkable. I have 6 working sheep dogs and for ease and cost I feed them primarily on kibble with raw bones given every week. I probably should also give them more fruit and vegies but usually dont.

I find their energy levels are sky high and their coats are very glossy and they are lean and fit. They would work all day given half the chance and my past dogs have lived to 15-17 years old. 

I was wondering how much difference can a raw diet give, I cant imagine my lot being in any better condition than they are now.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Sara Waters said:


> It is interesting that people say the difference in feeding raw is remarkable. I have 6 working sheep dogs and for ease and cost I feed them primarily on kibble with raw bones given every week. I probably should also give them more fruit and vegies but usually dont.
> 
> I find their energy levels are sky high and their coats are very glossy and they are lean and fit. They would work all day given half the chance and my past dogs have lived to 15-17 years old.
> 
> I was wondering how much difference can a raw diet give, I cant imagine my lot being in any better condition than they are now.


Growing up our dogs ate alot of things, including chop mixed with water or sometimes milk, slops, left overs , whatever wasn't eaten from butchering and whatever we kids shot.

Regarding how much difference a raw diet could give compared to a commercial diet, judge for yourself :lol:

http://media.peopleofwalmart.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/573.jpg


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Sara Waters said:


> ... I have 6 working sheep dogs ... I feed them primarily on kibble ... I find their energy levels are sky high and their coats are very glossy and they are lean and fit. ... I cant imagine my lot being in any better condition than they are now.



Sounds like you're doing great. :-D


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## Ji Woslager (Feb 25, 2011)

Thanks for the input guys.

The dog has already been on raw... into the third week now this Saturday.

He was hard to get to switch, I had to starve him out for a few days but now hes rocking at it.

I gave him chicken quarters and wings for the first week. The trick was keeping it frozen. I feed him EVERYTHING frozen. He doesnt like it unthawed... works for me its less hassle. Straight from the freezer to the deck and he gnaws away at it.

Second week I added small amounts of the new items as by the end of the first week he was already showing small white, powdery stools and I notice more straining on his part to do the deed :razz:

He LOVES liver ... he will pick it out of anything and eat it straight. He also has taken whole sardines, pork ribs, pork necks, turkey necks, and gizzards and hearts. As long as they are frozen. He even took ground beef this week for the first time ... a half pound ... frozen. Also he likes plain yogurt.

Today I offered him a bit of my leftoever baked sweet potato (I eat them plain with nothing on them, but baked) he sniffed it a bit and ate it right up. So far not a single loose stool, but all these extra items Im mentioning have been fed in really small amounts and the bone/meat outweighs it by far. As the weeks go on Ill give a bit more per feeding on the offal. For example the liver, he only gets about 1/4 of a pound at a time. Hes handling it really well. I did give him a half pound of hearts and gizzards at one sitting ... with no problems.

Im proud of him hes come a long way in the short time Ive had him.

Today I found whole cases of sardines from a local fresh fish market. 25 lbs a pop... Im waiting on the guy to get back to me. Also, I found a goat breeder/butcher a few hours away that Im looking into. I do have a chest freezer dedicated to dog food storage so no problems as I only have this single dog for now.

I live in Omaha, Nebraska so Im certain with a little digging I can drum up a bunch of sources.

Which BTW, if anyone knows of any in my area Im all ears! 

Thanks again!


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Ji Woslager said:


> Which BTW, if anyone knows of any in my area Im all ears!


Don't feed those to your dog, very bad.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> FYI..feeding the sack is not a very good term to use because it may confuse some people who are just starting.


Waste not, want not! [-X (says the one whose dogs have indeed had lamb fries before...got them free from my lamb bone supplier) ;-)


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Don't feed those to your dog, very bad.


No no. It's PIG ears..... :lol:


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## Mike Ritland (Apr 11, 2009)

I think when it comes to feeding raw, too many people overthink it. I have been feeding exclusively raw for about 8 years now, and a few hundred dogs. I have tried many different theories regarding what, how much, bone/meat ratio, veggies or not etc. I am of the opinion from my experience that pretty much anything you feed raw is better than most expensive, most critically acclaimed kibble. I have tried just about everything, and I have found that unless you are training a dog for a 2+ hour hog hunt or a marathon, you really aren't going to screw it up as long as your feeding good clean raw food. Be it turkey, fish, chicken, beef or anything wild including pork (which I know to most is a huge no-no) the dogs do worlds better on it than any brand of kibble I have ever come across. Is it better to feed perfectly portioned, exact balanced meals of meat/bone, healthy omega fats and adequate fiber? Sure it is. Is it necessary? I don't think it is. I have had dogs do just as well on a couple chicken backs and nothing else as I have giving them nature's variety frozen patties with puree'd veggies and fish oil. For a good strong healthy working dog just giving them some assemblence of what nature intended is leaps and bounds above the "canned goods & beef jerky" option of kibble. Just my 2 cents, which probably isn't worth even that.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I'll agree to a point, Mike, but then disagree. In fact, for the first year or so I got into raw about 6 years ago, I bought into the whole "dogs don't need anything but muscle meat, bones, and a little organ meat" and "GRAINS ARE EVIL" thing and little or no veggies (maybe one serving of canned tripe a week). But the more I actually studied from the literature what wolves and other wild canids and pariah dogs eat and how they lived, as well as longing at the nutrients that go into whole prey items, it's not a good idea long term to go without. In fact, my main working dog does best with some grains in his food! Dogs, particularly as adults, are pretty adaptable creatures that can live off of trash and refuse in third world countries whose diets are probably dictated a lot by feast or famine. So they can do okay on a lot, even junk like Ol' Roy and Beneful. 

But while you and I may feed raw for different reasons, most people have this idea or perception of what they think wolves eat "naturally" and that they'd like this more "natural" diet for their dogs. Unfortunately, this well-intentioned premise is incorrect as wolves don't eat just meat, bones, and maybe some liver and they aren't strict carnivores either. I'm about to go feed my jungle carpet python a rat and she's about the most perfect carnivore there is. However, a mouse or rat will still have a small amount of carbohydrates and *GASP* grain in its system from its previous meals. I hope it makes sense that even a completely strict carnivore like a snake is still eating some plant derived material from its meals. So when we only give the cleaned flesh and bones from chicken backs that comes from butcher shop, restaurant supplier, or a co-op, that's not really any more "natural" than what comes out of a bag is "natural." Perhaps if people are hunting wild game and giving the whole carcass to the dog, that would be a pretty close approximation. But that's really uncommon, even in raw feeders. Hope that makes sense.


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## Theresa MacDonald (Nov 2, 2009)

Ji Woslager said:


> Thanks for the input guys.
> 
> The dog has already been on raw... into the third week now this Saturday.
> 
> ...


I've been feeding raw for several years; only thing I would be careful of, is frozen, in regard to teeth, breaking? I've fed partially frozen, but not as a habit.
Maybe as your pup gets used to raw, he will like it thawed?

& I don't feed veggies or fruit, & No below ground veggies for sure!


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## Ji Woslager (Feb 25, 2011)

I appreciate all the input and the discussions! Im taking it all in I assure you.

I figure if I can get organs, fish, tripe, veggies, and red meat along with a few easily acquired supplements in his diet a couple times a week alongside a staple of chicken parts .. I should be able to rest in the thought that hes better off then if he was on kibble.

Thats my main concern, I dont want him to be undernourished because of the raw diet.


I can get all these things and its not a big deal to process and store it for me either. So I think Im going to leave it at that. I havent given him whole fish yet, so thats a caviet I have yet to encounter... but he tears up the sardines like no bodies business and the way hes accepting new foods with no problem now Im sure he will go for it (today he took to that sweet potato pretty easily).

Thanks again!


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## Theresa MacDonald (Nov 2, 2009)

Ji Woslager said:


> I appreciate all the input and the discussions! Im taking it all in I assure you.
> 
> I figure if I can get organs, fish, tripe, veggies, and red meat along with a few easily acquired supplements in his diet a couple times a week alongside a staple of chicken parts .. I should be able to rest in the thought that hes better off then if he was on kibble.
> 
> ...


As Connie said, it gets easier as you go!!
I feed chicken as a staple, with other variety added daily; lucked out here, live close to an Amish butcher, dogs eat good!


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Ji Woslager said:


> Heres what I'ld have planned in any given week. What do you guys think ... should I worry about anything major being left out or do you think this should be sufficient.
> 
> Mon
> 
> ...


I feed tripe from http://www.greentripe.com/ every morning. I get their organ meat/tripe blend. I like it better than the canned stuff because it's from grass fed organic cattle. I supplement with Salmon Oil and Vitamin E. 

Every night I feed whole bones from various protein sources (venison necks, llama necks, alpaca necks, beef necks, lamb necks, chicken frames w/necks, etc..) I occasionally feed a can of mackeral. I usually toss in an egg a week.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

I get tripe and organ stuff here http://www.glengarybison.com/ or from their distributors depending on...

Tripe is just a different animal when it's fresh frozen, no matter where you live there are animals being raised for food, sometimes it's hard to get in the summer because of the obvious but most people will supply it when they know it's worth money.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Which BTW, if anyone knows of any in my area Im all ears! :wink:

Isn't that Prince Charles' signature tune??


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> ... wolves don't eat just meat, bones, and maybe some liver and they aren't strict carnivores either.


Watching the videos of the Gray Wolf Project (UC) a few years ago opened my eyes completely to this. I had understood before this that the wolf would eat small prey like rodents in its entirety and so was eating plenty of GI content, despite the stuff the "Prey Model" web sites claim about which parts of large prey the wolf would leave behind in times of plenty.

But seeing the gray wolf also choose to eat tender young ferns growing by water as well as fallen ripe berries, on top of rodent after rodent _in toto_, made me understand that by not feeding a little ripe (processed, if not semi-digested) produce, I was withholding something the animal eats on his own. (My dogs can't run down to the grocery store or even to the forest to correct my feeding errors.)

I think that the biggest nutritional disaster that careless raw feeders can wreak is no attention to the calcium requirement (and particularly the terrible no-bone raw diet). But lack of "sides" and variety might be number two. JMO!

It's still easy, IMO. :-D


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I'll be honest. I fed raw for about 5 years and aside from the teeth not getting tartar and having to be cleaned, and the smaller poops that turn white and fall apart, I really could not tell any difference.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> I'll be honest. I fed raw for about 5 years and aside from the teeth not getting tartar and having to be cleaned, and the smaller poops that turn white and fall apart, I really could not tell any difference.


The teeth are important to me.

Still, you obviously have/give a good commercial diet. I do see some very good commercial foods these days. I think it's easier than ever to feed a good commercial diet.

For me, with a load of experience with not-100%-healthy rescues to restore to good health, fresh raw food has been a big part of my arsenal.


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## Theresa MacDonald (Nov 2, 2009)

I still can't get mine to eat a green bean?? 

She looks at me like: "Where's The Beef"!!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Theresa MacDonald said:


> I still can't get mine to eat a green bean??
> 
> She looks at me like: "Where's The Beef"!!


You know what's really weird? Canned green beans are like caviar to many dogs. Even the no-salt-added ones! They are disgusting and kind of an army green, but dogs seem to like "disgusting army green" stuff. :lol:



When I have no green tripe, I generally throw the mooshed produce into the yogurt.

I also have THK; as others have mentioned, I use it as a "side" rather than as a basis. The THK formulas with meat are really handy. They can even serve as the basic food for road trips, etc. 

On vacation and road trips, I just throw in some meat up to the level recommended on the THK package (over that level, RMBs are needed, not to throw off the Ca/P ratio).


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## Theresa MacDonald (Nov 2, 2009)

Connie Sutherland said:


> You know what's really weird? Canned green beans are like caviar to many dogs. Even the no-salt-added ones! They are disgusting and kind of an army green, but dogs seem to like "disgusting army green" stuff. :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info, regarding the THK, plus for traveling:smile:

Yes, to tripe!! but green beans??? But in contrast, she doesn't need her liver sauted either!!;-)
The Cairn Terrier, he'll gobble green beans, liver, .......


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Theresa MacDonald said:


> Thanks for the info, regarding the THK, plus for traveling:smile:
> 
> Yes, to tripe!! but green beans??? But in contrast, she doesn't need her liver sauted either!!;-)
> The Cairn Terrier, he'll gobble green beans, liver, .......



:lol: :lol:



I've learned that many a dog owner has a dog who will leave raw liver in the bowl forever. Food-absorbed, food-driven, normal piggy dog .... except for raw liver. ](*,)



eta
I agree with them. :lol:


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## Tracy Davis-Sullivan (May 10, 2010)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I've learned that many a dog owner has a dog who will leave raw liver in the bowl forever. Food-absorbed, food-driven, normal piggy dog .... except for raw liver..



My older female. She'll even give you this withering look as she cleans her bowl except the liver. Finally, I found an organ mix from Creston Valley Meats and now she can't refuse liver. haha on her!

Also, JJ glad to hear your guy's doing well on raw! Just make sure the poops aren't coming out white and chalky often. If so, you might need to reduce the amount of bone you are feeding. 

I also have to temporarily reduce/eliminate bones when we're at a tournament/competition. Otherwise it takes too long to potty all of the dogs.


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## Ji Woslager (Feb 25, 2011)

Good stuff! I appreciate all the suggestions in this thread. :razz:


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## Theresa MacDonald (Nov 2, 2009)

Connie Sutherland said:


> :lol: :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I find this info so Ironic!! Hehe!
Both mine, GSD & Cairn Terrier = First thing they go for in food bowl = Raw Liver, Kidney, Heart, ect = LOL

The above is pretty "fresh" from the cow, pig, recent butcher;
but the GSD will not eat ground turkey, bought in 1# rolls? Go figure, not enough blood??


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## Shawndra Drury (Jun 28, 2010)

I thought I'd post my staples since well it isn't chicken. 

My parents raise natural beef so the staples I use most are beef heart and tongue. Also use the kidney and liver for organs. I usually pair the organ meals with something bony, usually turkey necks or duck necks. I do sardines a couple times a week. And I'm looking to integrate some green tripe soon. Probably from greentripe.com as we corn finish our own and the girls have ugly reactions to corn. I would also like to integrate more boneless meat sources, like lamb heart or something... I actually contacted a local elk farm, but haven't heard back yet.
This is only our third month and actually its easier than I thought it would be. Not huge differences, but the ones there are I really like.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Shawndra Drury said:


> ... the staples I use most are beef heart and tongue. Also use the kidney and liver for organs. I usually pair the organ meals with something bony, usually turkey necks or duck necks. .... I would also like to integrate more boneless meat sources, like lamb heart or something...


Turkey and duck necks are the daily RMBs, then? (I'm concerned, maybe unnecessarily, when you say that the "staples" are boneless. The "staples" of a raw diet are RMBs with digestible bone. Maybe it's just semantics.  )


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## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

So,,,the evidence backs up the story that eggs should be cooked (boiled, etc,,) before feeding to the dogs, right?


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Skip Morgart said:


> So,,,the evidence backs up the story that eggs should be cooked (boiled, etc,,) before feeding to the dogs, right?


The wife has laying chickens so we have lots of fresh eggs. We feed raw egg with the shells ground up.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Skip Morgart said:


> So,,,the evidence backs up the story that eggs should be cooked (boiled, etc,,) before feeding to the dogs, right?


If fed in any quantity, see post #27 here:
http://www.WorkingDogForum.com/vBulletin/f25/nutrition-questions-19528/index3.html#post260191

Yes, cooking deactivates the biotin-binding mechanism of the avidin in raw whites.


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## Shawndra Drury (Jun 28, 2010)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Turkey and duck necks are the daily RMBs, then? (I'm concerned, maybe unnecessarily, when you say that the "staples" are boneless. The "staples" of a raw diet are RMBs with digestible bone. Maybe it's just semantics.  )


I have to stick to literally only 10% bone total per week for Lily otherwise she has powder poo. So trust me, I've measured out everything properly percentage wise for what she eats for her weight.
Even just a straight chicken quarter is too bony for her now that her system is fully acclimated. And cheap chicken makes her feet stink anyway. Weird.

Not every dogs system is the same! 

I also mix it up with pork necks and lamb necks sometimes. Its not always poultry.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Shawndra Drury said:


> I've measured out everything properly percentage wise for what she eats for her weight.


However you maintain the Ca/P ratio is fine, of course. 

_
" ... the staples I use most are beef heart and tongue" _was just a sentence that worried me in case a new-to-raw owner read it and concluded that such boneless muscle meat could be the basis of a raw diet. (You would be amazed and dismayed at how many owners do no research at all and end up feeding a tragedy of a no-calcium boneless diet.)



How nice that you have access to beef raised by your parents! 8) I'm envious!


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## Shawndra Drury (Jun 28, 2010)

Oh I can imagine! My vet had me explain the whole weekly diet to her to make sure I wasn't one of those people. I'm just happy she supports it at all! Granted I did do several years of research beforehand.

Its definitely handy!


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