# Dog hates helper?



## Jack Lee (Mar 26, 2009)

In china, PPD training is quite of army way.
Too many people believe dog in bite training should be made to hate the helper.
after all ,how can a dog fight strongly without hatred?!

ED FRAWLEY describe PPD in protection can be not vicious and decoy is dog's fight partner. But in his forum he said dog in fight drive *hates* the decoy.

so my question is ,
A PPD dog should be made to hate helper?


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Jack Lee said:


> In china, PPD training is quite of army way.
> Too many people believe dog in bite training should be made to hate the helper.
> after all ,how can a dog fight strongly without hatred?!
> 
> ...


I cant help but you should decide judging from your video you posted some time back Ed should be asking you about dogs and training that video is one of the most impressive I have seen to date.
I have it on my youtube favorits list. I'll post it aghain maybe some here have never seen it this is some crazy shit mang!!! www.youtube.com/watch?v=qre7e9z055M


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## Lee Robinson (Jun 22, 2009)

Ed Frawley understands prey drive and defense drive, but IMO he does not understand fight drive. Fight drive is more about the dog's RESPONSE to a stimuli. This stimuli does not have to involve "hate." Some dogs love the conflict. It is about the view of the conflict itself more so than the view the decoy. This may in fact be a hormonal thing...something internal from WITHIN the dog. Sure, a dog can learn to go into fight drive due to conditioning, but IMO only if the genetics are there for this form of real intinsity. And, gameness is a factor only when self preservation is not a concern.

Also, I would agree with Mike that Ed could probabaly learn from you. Nice video.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

No way does the dog NEED to hate the helper. My dog lets our helpers pet him, when he isn't working. If a dog had to hate someone to bite them, they would never bite a stranger. 

I know some would like to say dogs are incapable of an emotion like hate, but all of my adults dogs HATE my neighbor lady. I have never seen dogs go off on one person like mine freak out on her. She is a weirdo though and I've been tempted to punch her in the face myself. Just a bad attitude, posture and manurisms. God only knows what goes on in her head and what extra info the dogs can pick up from her, that us humans cannot.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

The dog should bite who the handler says to bite and if the handler says the aggressor is ok the dog should accept that too.


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

Hate is a human quality.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

How you make that out?

I just 'ate my dinner!


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Michelle Kehoe said:


> No way does the dog NEED to hate the helper. My dog lets our helpers pet him, when he isn't working. If a dog had to hate someone to bite them, they would never bite a stranger.
> 
> I know some would like to say dogs are incapable of an emotion like hate, but all of my adults dogs HATE my neighbor lady. I have never seen dogs go off on one person like mine freak out on her. *She is a weirdo though and I've been tempted to punch her in the face myself.* Just a bad attitude, posture and manurisms. God only knows what goes on in her head and what extra info the dogs can pick up from her, that us humans cannot.


 
Maybe the dogs are taking the vibes from you?

Great video, watched it before - loved it!


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

How can the dogs feel my vibes when I am in bed or inside the house watching out the window? I always get up to look when my dogs go berzerk and she is the only human they do that to. They will bark like that when a lose dog runs up by their kennels but other than her, she is the only person who they react like that to. Funny thing is my old dead dogs hated her too.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

They read your mind - put the aluminum foil liner back in your hat.:lol::lol::lol:


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Jack why must the dog hate the decoy? Better question or thought, what will the dog do for you and only you? Some dogs will do anything to please the handler and others couldn't gve a rat's a$$. I want the dog to be so focused and sure of the skills that dealing with the decoy isn't an issue, its a simple task. 

What happens if the decoy falls to the ground or the sleeve comes off the arm? Will the dog know these are weak points and take advantage of them? Will the dog understand the decoy is only play fighting with him? Isn't it better for the dog to have a clear mindset and a oneness with dealing in a positive aggressive state than rage? :-k

And is apple pie better when it's cold? [-mrgreen:


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## Andy Larrimore (Jan 8, 2008)

The helper is there to help the dog and mold the dog, not to be hated by the dog. It is hard to learn from someone you hate.


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## Jack Lee (Mar 26, 2009)

thanks to every gentleman,
The topic is really hot and many people are confused in china.
Let me explain:
1)many people think most aggresive mals are isearal army dogs,so cruel so that the dogs could be more than "fight drive". the dogs should be man-hunters 。 many people feel the dogs hate humankinds，otherwise,how can they train mals to such level?
so, why not let the dog hates the decoy (extreme civil aggresion)?
2）Many people also worry about sleeve-biting,they feel long-time sleeve-biting and game-like biting will confuse the dog. So it is quite possible dogs will not attack when suspects no sleevs on.
Infact, some us army trainer come to chinese army-dogs-center to encourage defend-drive based bite.
3) Many people also can not understand clear-mind biting and mad-biting. after all we should be more afraid of mad-biting.
So ,when the dog is driven to such level:when decoy give up the sleeve ,the dog will still aggresively attack the decoy. THEN ,the dogs will be trusted for PPD.
but,for these dogs ,no decoy want to take the training task exept the armytrainers.


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

1. If you can get the dog works up so much that he hates human kinds, then he could turn on you the handler too if you pissed him off or for correcting him, don't you think?
2.That is why you have to use hidden sleeve, muzzle work from time to time and make sure that he is not equipment fix.
3.You want a clear thinking dog than one that his drive is so high that he is lock, otherwise he won't listen to you, if you trained them with balanced equipment and civil agitation, the dog should look at the decoy as a bad guy and spit out the sleeve and go nuts on the decoy if there are more agitation from the decoy after he slip the sleeve.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Matthew Grubb said:


> Hate is a human quality.


Yeah Jack think about it as a Martial Arts exercise. Very rare you will see in any Martial Arts competition 'hate' and the competitors that 'hate' are usually the ones who get beat. 

You can still prepare your dog for war but not have it hate, but still win.


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## Jack Lee (Mar 26, 2009)

one more quetion,
we usually believe, the more decoy the more seriously the dog act during training.
How many decoys do you usually deploy to train PPD or Policedog?
Just One is enough?


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## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

There are far more experienced people that can give advise, but I do train with some very knowledgable trainers. Their way of thinking is once a dog bites solidly on different targets on the suit and outs consistantly then it is time to train the dog on several different helpers in new environments. This includes "random" confrontations that will suprise the dogs and truely test their ability to defend the handlers.


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## Jack Lee (Mar 26, 2009)

thanks to every reply,
Please continue.
By now , I am quite clear-minded .
Recently , a famous scholar passed away , he had one philosophical saying ;
"when truth is discussed further , usually confused not be more clear"


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Jack Lee said:


> one more quetion,
> we usually believe, the more decoy the more seriously the dog act during training.
> How many decoys do you usually deploy to train PPD or Policedog?
> Just One is enough?


I would train for all scenarios as much as possible, and I would use more decoys for like directional send, send the dog to bite a passive decoy while another decoy is active or talking loudly, call off the dog before he attack another decoy down the field to come back and defend you from another decoy came out from hiding, dual decoy charging the dog, dog bite one and you must call him off to defend you from the other attacking decoy...
btw all of this scenarios are from PSA. Check it out here and it might give you some more ideas.
www.psak9.org


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Adam Rawlings said:


> There are far more experienced people that can give advise, but I do train with some very knowledgable trainers. Their way of thinking is once a dog bites solidly on different targets on the suit and outs consistantly then it is time to train the dog on several different helpers in new environments. This includes "random" confrontations that will suprise the dogs and truely test their ability to defend the handlers.



Jack I'm with Adam. Basically once the dog is comfortable with what you want on one helper. Then start introducing different helpers and start bringing the pressure back up. I'm not sure what you are training outside of PPD but maybe you should also start introducing the muzzle into your training so the dog can get used to combat with a man not in a bite suit. My .02$


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Jack Lee said:


> ED FRAWLEY describe PPD in protection can be not vicious and decoy is dog's fight partner. But in his forum he said dog in fight drive *hates* the decoy.


Much police dog training is done with other police officers or other handlers doing the decoy work. If these dogs *hated *those decoys they could never be around them. 

This statement is, on it's face, absurd. The general theory on this is highly flawed.


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## Amy Swaby (Jul 16, 2008)

Lou Castle said:


> Much police dog training is done with other police officers or other handlers doing the decoy work. If these dogs *hated *those decoys they could never be around them.
> 
> This statement is, on it's face, absurd. The general theory on this is highly flawed.


Actually, that is one of the problems we have down here in The Bahamas, an officer who is a decoy can NOT go out with that dog. But then I don't regard our unit here all that fantastic anyway, but apaprently whatever training method they use it is certainly an issue.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Earlier I wrote,


> Much police dog training is done with other police officers or other handlers doing the decoy work. If these dogs *hated *those decoys they could never be around them.





Amy Swaby said:


> Actually, that is one of the problems we have down here in The Bahamas, an officer who is a decoy can NOT go out with that dog. But then I don't regard our unit here all that fantastic anyway, but apaprently whatever training method they use it is certainly an issue.


This can be either an issue of either the method that's been used in the training or, and I think it's more likely that, the selection process is flawed. 

Having this result will certainly hamper any operation that the decoy and the dog both find themselves involved in. This can be a serious issue on a smaller department. It can occur on a search where the decoy is either the backup or on the perimeter or a crowd control operation where the decoy is on the line. If the dog targets the former decoy it becomes dangerous for the decoy who is now NOT wearing protective equipment. It also endangers the handler and the rest of the team because the dog is focused in the wrong place. 

When we trained the decoy rode in the car with dogs that he'd just agitated. Dogs should bite people due to their behavior (for example, attacking the handler) or because their handler has given them a command to do so, NOT because they _"hate"_ someone.


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