# Dog walking 101



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

How do you walk your dog in public ?

I know; sounds like a stupid pet question 
But it's serious, and pretty basic, since I assume most people walk their dogs in public.
When I am in public my dog walks next to my left side. I don't care too much where it is as long as :
1. It will walk at MY speed
2. It will not get completely in front of me and start leading me around (meaning....if I can see its butt, it's too far in front)
- I realize most dogs prefer to walk faster than their handler and will surge from time to time. I will also train a few (one word) verbals, like hey, slow, back, etc., to get them back in place if they start wandering, but if the verbals get blown off a hard correction will follow 
3. It will sit when I stop
4. It will not mark, stop, and sniff around if I am moving

Anyway, that's also how I train anyone's dog, regardless of size or breed. And I am talking about casual walks; not training a heel/fus or competing of any kind. Don't necessarily want to get into specific techniques, but I use a lot of different methods depending on the dog. Including the Koehler method

This came up in a PM with an experienced working dog owner. They allow their dog to lead in front and would periodically give it a fus command to bring it back (for reasons not specified), and then release it with a "free" to go ahead again. fwiw, I don't use a "free" command

An visual example of this in a recent vid would be Matt's clip of him walking Sali in public. I'm not trying to single him out, but I will say I would never walk my dog that way, nor would I allow a customer to walk their dog that way.

Curious if I am in the minority here. 
- Based on the vid and the PM, maybe I am 
But I would also welcome any discussion on the pros or cons of allowing your dog(s) to walk in front of you when you are out in public.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

more or less like you do...

i usually do have a command that will go ahead and let the dog "free" walk,
and sometimes another for having the dog pull me around and look like I cannot control it...in case I want to clear the area depending on where I am walking....


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I do similar. A dog that walks in front, especially when approaching another dog, feels it is in charge of the situation, not the owner.

At my first club we had a good exercise for the 8-14 week old pups. We would stand still, the pup on a loose lead and if the pup strayed enough to tauten the lead, we would say "no" with maybe a little tug and, if the pup came back into the allowed radius, we would praise it.

I taught the above but with my Briard, I slackened the rules. the dog was neutral to other dogs and humans. However, one of my neighbours saw me out walking and asked me if I was on a ski-lift!!

I do not "normally" allow a pup / dog to walk on a taut lead. This is a disrespect of the lead that I "No 1" am holding. No raising up on the hind legs to bark at other animals or humans.

I guess we all relax or tighten the rules according to the dog in hand.

My Motto in our Club:

Don't do as I do, do as I tell you.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I walk my dogs 8-15 miles every day. I walk my dogs on 15 foot leads and prefer they walk in front. My lines are neither taunt nor slack, reason being I learned a long time ago, slight pressure is best for me and my dogs, it's communication, plus I don't have to deal with dogs stepping on lines. 



















I also prefer they stay in front when off leash:





























The exception is those rare times I take them walking them in a city, I walk them on 6ft leads, and they both walk nicely by our sides or if I'm alone, by my side:










I'm the person who told Rick in a PM that I walk with my dogs ahead of me, which apparently to some people is a cardinal rule never to be broken...Here's what I think: 

DO WHAT WORKS FOR YOU, THIS WORKS FOR ME. 

I also make my dogs "fus", when being approached by people and their out of control dogs, which makes my life so easy. I don't let my dogs interact with strange dogs, and we just "fus" on by, no muss no fuss.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Sue,

There are no cardinal rules, as far as I am concerned. I only mentioned the walking in front when another dog is approaching. I, too, like my dogs in front of me when they are free.

Switzerland is a very small country and there are not many forests and mountains that are not infested with humans, dogs, etc.

I've met people walking donkeys, geese, cats, etc. apart from the numerous horse riders.

At the moment all dogs have to be on a lead in the forest because of the deer carrying young.

Gill


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Rick what you are describing the dude does is the premack principal


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

I dont pay attention to where the dog is for the most part. If we are just out and about. When we are in a working situation he needs to be not only in the front but dragging me ,,, there are so many situations that can occur its hard to say I suppose.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

I just open the front door and let the dog rape and pillage the neighborhood. Just kidding, I use a six foot leash when in the city and anything from a 15 foot leash to a 100 foot rope leash I made for outdoor activities in rural areas. Those long rope leashes come in handy for swimming exercises. I use a basic heel command and then free him at times so he can sniff the bushes and pee on everything he thinks he should pee on. I never allow pulling really, not for walks anyway.


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## Jay Quinn (Apr 1, 2012)

if there are no people around, the dogs are all out in front, if i have more than one dog with me, they are in a fan fashion with equal-length leads... they are not allowed to drag me or sniff at everything or run off after critturs... we will stop in strategic places for pee breaks... 

if there are people around i will not walk more than two dogs at once, and they must both stay by my side (one on each side)... same rules apply as above... plus dogs will be muzzled if i feel it neccessary...

when i am working in a compound where it's just us for most of the night but there is the occasional cleaner or worker coming in and out, i will only have one dog out at a time, and if i have good clear field of view in front of me, we pretty much just mosey along with the dog out front, if the dog spots someone first they will let me know with their body language, and i will then determine if it's an intruder or a friendly, and either tell them to leave, or tell them that we will go check it out, but they're not allowed to explode on me just yet... if vision is restricted or space is tight, the dog is brought back to my side, but not under a command, as in the example i've given below... 

i used to work among the public until a few months ago, and i only ever have one dog with me at a time when i am patrolling... i don't ask for a fuss command because i want my dog a little out in front of me so i can see his body language... i am not talking the whole dog so i can see his arse and all, just enough so i can glance down and see his shoulders and head... they must respect the leash and not drag me unless i've switched them on, and fuss is reserved for if we absolutely have to move very close to or through a crowd of people... when we stop they usually sit by my side or lay just in front of me...

i know that's not really "walking the dog" in public, in the traditional sense of taking the dog for a relaxing walk for excercise, but it's still walking a dog in public and very different to how i allow my dogs to behave when they are just on an exercise walk...

i also don't like to have my dogs off leash much, i have spent too much time and money on them to risk an accident... i will usually only have one off leash at a time but e-collared, and they have a solid platz wherever they are, and recall... and i generally also train an automatic platz if we are walking with leashes and i suddenly drop the leash... 

probably way more info than anyone wanted but hey, the title of the topic is "dog walking 101".....


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Pretty much as Susan does. Six ft leash in heavily traveled paths, parks, etc. I don't have a problem with my dogs in front of me as long as they don't pull. FOR ME I don't see it as disrespect simply because it's something I allow and not something they do against my training. 
Always off lead in the woods but not out of sight. I can easily call them off rabbits , deer, etc even if they get a start on them. 
Six ft leash in the neighborhood or to the vets.

Susan
I love the Rhodys! Are they growing wild?


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

My dogs are out in front too. Partially, because I want them use to working in front of me and the other part because it gets them out from underfoot. I probably see more of my dogs' butts than any other part of them. When I take my dogs for walks the walks are for the dogs. Not me. They are also training walks for mantrailing for long line work, scent orientation, exposure to the urban environment, and working on crittering issues. When they are beside me, then its just being there and not pulling me. They don't sit when I stop. At least not automatically because I don't put that kind of OB on my dogs. Everyone's needs and what they want from their dogs are different. I'm not sure I would want my dogs to function like the OP expects.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Pretty much as Susan does. Six ft leash in heavily traveled paths, parks, etc. I don't have a problem with my dogs in front of me as long as they don't pull. FOR ME I don't see it as disrespect simply because it's something I allow and not something they do against my training.
> Always off lead in the woods but not out of sight. I can easily call them off rabbits , deer, etc even if they get a start on them.
> Six ft leash in the neighborhood or to the vets.
> 
> ...


Yep, they sure are!


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Walking my dobes, this vid is from when they were about 12months I think, I don't let them walk ahead because they be litter sisters and if they get ahead they watch each other for cues:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-7yzUAGfKE

My missus walking the bullies:


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> Yep, they sure are!


Brings back memories in the pacific Northwest. 

Nothing grows wild here but cactus. 

But planted roses grow like weeds. I have 18 of them here in the yard.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Sarah
When you walk dogs in public I feel you have to respect the space of others. I can't visualize how you would be doing that with the way you walk your SAR dogs in public. 
- Or, are you saying that walking in public might be detrimental to SAR work if the dogs aren't out in front of you ?

keep in mind, i said "in public"
.... meaning around people of all ages who often know nothing about dogs and do not own dogs, or may even be a bit scared of dogs
- NOT referring to nature walks along country roads or paths. That's a completely different situation

clarification; I won't correct the dog if it doesn't sit when I stop. but it must at least stop when i stop, and if i'm waiting for a light to change it should chill and sit on its own

anyway, i want to keep this thread to dog walking in public places.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

I don't "walk" my dogs as such. I got to much stuff going on and any "walk" is a training exercise. I actually spend a lot of time doing trails down sidewalks, past street cafes, and such. I may snick up the lead but the dog is still in front and I'm still dragging up the rear. I want and need those folks out there wandering around. Most folks will actually see/hear you coming and let you pass by. The dog is expected to pass them by with no more that a head swivel to do a scent check as they go by. I have a command for the dog to swing out a bit when passing folks or cars to give them a little distance but my walks are not your walks. We've overtaken many a strolling couple and I give them a verbal warning and tell them to ignore the dog, that it's going go pass right by them. And they do and the dog does. It's a rare event that the dog gets a walk just to get a walk. Because if they need a walk, they can run a track at the same time. Their walk, if you can call it that, is us walking back to the van after a run.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re "I don't "walk" my dogs as such."
that's kinda what I figured

I still say you have to respect the rights of others when you have a dog in public. And although I understand how convenient it is to use public places for conditioning SAR, I would only do that kind of work under a much more controlled environment and I would never do it by myself

I use strangers as "training aids" all the time, but it is not always easy to do and still respect their personal space. If there is ever a question, I have to defer to their space and keep the dog at a farther distance than I would prefer for training. If the dogs are out front on anything longer than a 6ft lead, I find it hard to see how that can be applied, regardless of how well behaved the dogs are and how much control you have over them

don't want to debate this detail any further. That's just my position and I know others don't feel the same 

I still haven't read a reason why a dog should be allowed to walk in front of the handler in public. If you have one, please explain the benefits to the handler, the dog and the public.

I can cite many reasons why I don't agree and they should be obvious.

I know some of you have run these tests.
Q -- can a dog going through a CGC test pass if it is being walked out in front of the handler ??
- I always thought that would be a fail


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Even on the trails and roads that have a lot of people I walk with my dogs in front of me. As far as frightened, frail, old, young, dog haters, or dog lovers, my dogs don't approach anyone, no matter where we are, no matter whether they're next to me or in front of me...it's how we roll. If I'm on a narrow trail, I move the dogs off the trail to the side and let the people pass on the trail.

If someone asks to pet my dog, I let them, my dogs have a verbal cue, "Arkane, say hello" . I didn't use to let people touch my dogs because I don't know what nastiness they're rubbing off their grubby hands onto my dog coat that's then going to get on me when I next touch my dog....but I've mellowed...a little.

When in the city, I walk with my dogs next to me, they're under my control and I allow them to sniff stuff and they don't have to sit when I stop.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

rick smith said:


> I still haven't read a reason why a dog should be allowed to walk in front of the handler in public. If you have one, please explain the benefits to the handler, the dog and the public.
> 
> I can cite many reasons why I don't agree and they should be obvious.


Okay, my reasons are:

1. I can always have eyes on my dogs.
2. This is what is most comfortable for my dogs and myself.
3. The benefits to the general public are the same as the benefits of any well trained and controlled dog(s) to the general public. My dogs do not interfere with the general public in any way.

If you have reasons why you don't agree, I have no clue what they are, but the thing is, if you don't like your dogs moving ahead of you, then by all means, don't do it, walk with your dogs next to you. I don't think anyone has tried to tell you what you're doing is wrong, it's what works for you.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Susan
- I never thought I was doing it wrong; just thought I might be in the minority
I don't walk with a dog next to me in public because it "works for me".
I do it because I think that is the most correct way to walk a dog in public places.

yes, I could state why I think it is the most correct way...but i'm thinking you really don't care about my reasons 
- nor do i think many others here care to read thru my list 

but based on this thread, I still think i am in the minority ... not that it matters ... was just curious //lol//


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

rick smith said:


> but based on this thread, I still think i am in the minority ... not that it matters ... was just curious //lol//


I think it matters to you a lot. Otherwise you wouldn't have asked the question or keep after people when they say they do something different. You have an idea of the way you would like things to be. Great. But accept that not everyone thinks like you or shares your philosophy, and that you're probably in the minority, and move on. I already have.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

In reality the dog walking out front (under control) actually makes more sense TO ME simply because it leaves more room on the average sidewalk for people coming from the other direction. Those that want to pass or myself wanting to pass others going in the same direction also.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

The subject interested me enuff to start a thread for 2 reasons :
1. a guy who is working to make his dog less reactive in public posts a vid of the dog walking in front of him and no one comments that this might actually be one reason the dog is reactive in the first place. I found the lack of comments interesting because I have spent many hours walking dogs in public to decrease their reactivity, and in EVERY single case the dog became LESS reactive when it learned to walk WITH me rather than in front of me.
2. Susan mentioned her dogs always walk in front of her which I also found odd since she is an experienced dog owner. As it turned out, most of her walking is done one country roads or paths and I do not consider that in the same category of being "public". Matt's vid was clear as to what situations I was talking about. So I considered Susan's examples somewhat off topic

As far as "keeping after people", that is only to try and keep the post ON TOPIC ... which was walking dogs in PUBLIC. Not on country roads, and yes, I definitely disagreed with Sarah and do not consider walking dogs that way in public as a "correct" method because I believe it intrudes on people's spaces. I also feel it has nothing to do with how well behaved the dog is or relevant that the dogs are used for SAR. And as that turned out she rarely just casually "walks" her dogs in public

so, all in all, very few responses have been posted

When i'm working a dog in public I always care more about the dog i'm with than John Q public around me. But to me the issue is still black and white. I certainly think there is a correct and incorrect way to walk a dog in public, Allowing a dog to walk in front of you is just plain rude and not "correct". Plus it gives the impression that the dog is driving the bus, not the owner. The bigger the dog, the bigger that impression. To think your dog is somehow "exempt" from this basic form of dog etiquette in public seems strange to me, especially with a larger working breed. But I also think it should apply to ankle biters 
- And to imply that I might be overly concerned with OB by training a dog to sit when I am waiting is a bit of a stretch. It was a no biggy comment, but i do feel it gives a better impression to non dog people when they see it, and to me that is a good thing

But believe me, this post WAS mostly curiosity, and it's not that surprising that there is nothing that will ever be universally agreed upon on the WDF 
- even something as basic as walking a dog in public //rotflmao//

My Q about the CGC test still stands. Anyone have an answer ?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Both of my dogs have their CGC and I was also an evaluator at one time. 
The only requirement is that they walk under control on a loose lead. Nothing about needing to be at the handler's side.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Bob, 
over here in Japan we have LOTS of crowded narrow sidewalks, including walking bridges that cross over streets. I always have to deal with people coming at me from opposite directions. 
- Surprisingly, even when I pull to the extreme left side, pause and motion with my hand to give them a wide space to pass (on my right), some people will still try and walk straight in to the dog because people traditionally pass other people that way 
- it used to happen with dogs that were people aggressive, so now I choose different times to work that type of dog

but all in all, it's not that hard and imo better and still safer than allowing the dog in front.
1. people might reach to pet it and if you are behind, you will not be in a position to control the dog. people do stupid things
2. I can't imagine your sidewalks are any narrower or busier than ours 

so do you know the rules for CGC ??????


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Test #4 DOES say on either side of the dog yet at the level almost all of the dogs and handlers are at it never stays that way in a test. I've not seen or flunked anyone for that IF the dog is still under control.

In that I stand corrected when I said nothing is mentioned. 
I will also say that the vast majority of testors pass dogs that I would not. To much "judgement" call in my opinion. 

"Under control" is the key. It's not an obedience test.


The ATTS TT actually wants the dog to pull forward to "check out" different things during the test.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Just thinking here. 
My subdivision has no sidewalks. We all walk both or dogs and ourselves in the street.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

lots of streets with no sidewalks here too

street walking works fine; just don't forget which side of the road the cars are coming from. 
- for the military families who have just come from the states; that can be a problem //lol//


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

rick smith said:


> lots of streets with no sidewalks here too
> 
> street walking works fine; just don't forget which side of the road the cars are coming from.
> - for the military families who have just come from the states; that can be a problem //lol//



I always walk into traffic and yes, I've always thought about how I would react if I had to drive on the wro....errr...the other side of the street. :grin:


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

rick smith said:


> Bob,
> over here in Japan we have LOTS of crowded narrow sidewalks, including walking bridges that cross over streets. I always have to deal with people coming at me from opposite directions.
> - *Surprisingly, even when I pull to the extreme left side, pause and motion with my hand to give them a wide space to pass (on my right), some people will still try and walk straight in to the dog* because people traditionally pass other people that way
> - it used to happen with dogs that were people aggressive, so now I choose different times to work that type of dog
> ...


This never fails to amaze me, people are strange.

Rick I know you said this thread wasn't a dig at me but I ain't buying that for one second NOW.... maybe at the beginning of the thread. Seems your plan has back fired as you are quite obviously in the minority.
One thing you have failed to notice it seems, is that Sali was not being reactive in that vid.......... 99.9999% of the time she is not reactive, she only reacts when people stand motionless staring at her, or dogs pile into her rudely, both of which she will cease with a leave it command from me even if the dog continues to pester her, equally both of which I don't feel are not un-warranted particularly.
Even with these situations she hardly ever reacts now either, I suspect it is to do with trigger stacking. In fact I think the whole situation was trigger stacking, she just finds very few things stressful anymore so the triggers don't stack up so often.

In that vid she deals with: Screaming baby, dogs off lead out of shot, a jogger that appears from nowhere as we emerge from a tunnel, just after which we encounter a mentally challenged fella emerging from the ice cream shop acting oddly (to her) because he is scared of dogs (just out of shot). 


In fact having watched the vid again, I don't even know what the **** you are on about, she is level with me or heeling DESPITE having been given no heel command, excepting about 6 ft from the van where she surges from being excited about getting back in the van.

Admittedly she doesn't look too happy on her walk but that is because Sali doesn't like walking on the lead, if I could trust her 100% and I did a vid with her off lead you would see a different picture in her body language completely. However I don't think I will ever trust this dog 100% off lead in this type of situation, despite her improvement.
Rick anymore of your digs and I am writing you off as a troll, end of. I have 5 other dogs here that are perfectly well trained and behaved, Sali is a special case i.e a window licker. That is why I ask questions about Sali and you don't see me asking questions about my two dobes or three bull breed dogs.


I would appreciate it if people involved in this thread could watch this vid and give me their opinions so I can determine whether Rick is talking a bag of shite or not.
Thanks

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1Nphm3PHow

Please remember Sali is a super high prey, massive hunt, low threshold, aggressive, anti social, dead game, fcukpig. I think she is doing pretty well and I have also done pretty well also, many people would have ditched her or PTS long ago.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Matt
sorry that this thread has gotten you pissed off. it wasn't meant to and it certainly wasn't a "plan" like you have labeled it ](*,)

i HAVE seen the improvement in your dog since the older clip you posted, but that has nothing to do with this thread 

i'm also curious why you highlighted the part of my thread that you converted into bold letters ??? 

... regardless, please paste whatever comments i made that you consider "digs" and I will try and clarify them


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Fair enough Rick.

The bolded part is me in agreement. I get it all the time, I am more aware of it because of Sali's past foolishness, as described I make it clear and obvious to the people that they should pass on the non dog side, even going as far as having Sali nearly rubbing a wall, yet still they will walk as though they are going to pass in the 1 inch gap between the dog and the wall. Blind Freddy could see they aint getting through and then the look of offence comes on their faces........

Anyway I can't be arsed to look back through all your posts on my threads or replies to find what could be perceived as digs at me or in fact other people, maybe I am being a soft dog, lol, but I don't think I am alone in feeling almost all your posts come across as pretty negative on the whole and a bit keyboard warrior. I apologise if it is a false perception or unfair. I just get the feeling you disprove of almost everything people say on this forum and everyone should do it 'Ricks way' or not at all. [-X 
Don't get me wrong, everyone is entitled to their opinions and ways of training dogs but that is exactly my point.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

rick smith said:


> Susan
> - I never thought I was doing it wrong; just thought I might be in the minority
> I don't walk with a dog next to me in public because it "works for me".
> I do it because I think that is the most correct way to walk a dog in public places.
> ...


I don.t think the question / statement is framed right for my ways of thinking.

I dont quite look at like I would be "allowing" the dog to walk in front of me, even though logically that is a valid way of looking at it.

I more look at it as what I personally would like for the dog to be doing, and if I "let" the dog walk in front of me, or encourage him to walk in front of me, it is not necessarily that I am "allowing" any particular dog to just walk in front of me just because the dog may like to do that.

I have several reasons for letting particular dogs in front of me in or out of the public, since it is a matter of my preference, I dont really care too much if everyone else feels that my reasons are "valid". 

I don’t think there is a need to validate the choice to have a dog in front of me.

Also, out in public for me, may mean I don’t encounter any other pedestrians at all, or it may mean I encounter a couple, or even a bunch, depending on where and when I go out walking.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re: the blind freddys ....

over here, most people eventually get the point when i make a gesture to go to my right. The "BF's" are usually the old fogies who are still walking with both feet and think they have a right to forge straight ahead and us "youngins" have to yield to their seniority. I don't give a crap and hold my ground. if they can't figure out is is DAMN rude to walk straight into a dog when they already have 80% of the path clear to them, that is THEIR problem. on some occasions i've actually had to step in front of the dog i'm with and physically block them
- then there are the young folk who are glued to their Iphones. i used to say something or make a sound, but that is not nearly as fun, so now I step in front of the dog and let them bump into me 
- people can call me an asshole but i really don't care and it doesn't ruin my day


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

hahaha Rick you asked "how do you walk your dogs in public ?" You didn't ask "how do you walk your dogs in busy metropolitan areas ?" You're changing the parameters of the thread you started and I'm off topic? 

As I and many others have said, we walk with our dogs in front of us. You really do seem to have your panties in a twist over this, in fact you've ramped it up now, calling it "rude" and "your dog is somehow "exempt" from this basic form of dog etiquette in public seems strange to me". That's just your opinion, not fact. Until the day comes that you make the rules or until the day comes that the laws are changed, it will be nothing more than your opinion. In fact what's "strange" to me, is how you somehow think your opinion determines correct and incorrect dog handling.

Finally, maybe you should reconsider how you write things, because from the PM you sent me, I too got the impression you were taking a dig at Matt.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> I don.t think the question / statement is framed right for my ways of thinking.
> 
> I dont quite look at like I would be "allowing" the dog to walk in front of me, even though logically that is a valid way of looking at it.
> 
> ...


 That's how I look at it. 

If I don't want him in front of me for some reason, I call him back (but not Fuss) unless the situation calls for it.

What I don't want is the dog pulling to where he wants to go.

If I want him to pull (strengthening his hind leg muscles) I let him.

As you say, it works.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> I don.t think the question / statement is framed right for my ways of thinking.
> 
> I dont quite look at like I would be "allowing" the dog to walk in front of me, even though logically that is a valid way of looking at it.
> 
> ...





Gillian Schuler said:


> That's how I look at it.
> 
> If I don't want him in front of me for some reason, I call him back (but not Fuss) unless the situation calls for it.
> 
> ...



I feel the same.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfarU5qL6wA

In Switzerland when you first buy a dog you have to take 2 compulsory courses.

If you have already owned a dog, you have only to attend one course.

The video was taken in Germany but it's probably similar to our courses.

One has to be able to walk with the dog on a loose lead past people, other dogs, through the railway station, etc.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I hope you are in agreement with this Matt but it definitely isn't off topic, even though you have solved your Problem.

A dog has various "Schwellen", i.e. a Niederreizwchwelle = is a readiness to attack .

There are pain thresholds, motivation thresholds, and, and, and.

We had a dog with a very low pain threshhold but, with high readiness to attack (anything but humans). The dog loved adults and kids and adults - 25 kindergarten kids around him didn't phase him. However his protection work was good (aggressive).

BUT, a neighbour nearly "clinched" him and I heard him growl softly so I called him back. My next door neighbours have the sister to my older GSD and one evening out on our terrace, they attempted to "put him in his place". He barked at them and I took him inside and replaced him with their dog's brother who can do no wrong in their eyes.

We had a Briard - hohe Reizschwelle (well-balanced), hohe Schmerzreizschwelle. Ran over his tail with my office char - no whimper.

By now, I'm probably boring you =P~

As far as I know there is not many dog with high pain, receptivity, motivation etc. thresholds.

Forget the soft / hard element and think further.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Cool thanks for the info Gillian! 

But this is Ricks thread, you can go over the horizon as far as off topic is concerned for all I care, threads bullshit, lol.
Thread could have been quite interesting, maybe it will get interesting.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Gillian Schuler said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfarU5qL6wA
> 
> In Switzerland when you first buy a dog you have to take 2 compulsory courses.
> 
> ...


What happens if you refuse to take compulsory courses.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

only on a freakin dog forum can the topic go from walking a dog to thresholds, attack modes, nerves, enviros and people getting butthurt \\/


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Lol, dude I'm not getting butthurt, it's all good.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Brian Anderson said:


> only on a freakin dog forum can the topic go from walking a dog to thresholds, attack modes, nerves, enviros and people getting butthurt \\/


If we were all sitting around a table at the dog club, one theme would lead to another. It's natural and nobody, not even the theme starter, would object. Why should forums be any different. I actually thought that forums were to imitate dog club discussions with an added bonus - we are global.

If on a forum, the theme starter wants to keep on track of his original question, he can make himself heard or seen!

It is natural in real life that a question about a dog's behaviour or temperament will widen out, and so it should.

As long as the discussion keeps us on our toes and we can learn from, and impart, knowledge, I can't see any problem.

If I trod on anyone's toes, may they feel it :lol:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Gillian Schuler said:


> If we were all sitting around a table at the dog club, one theme would lead to another. It's natural and nobody, not even the theme starter, would object. Why should forums be any different. I actually thought that forums were to imitate dog club discussions with an added bonus - we are global.
> 
> If on a forum, the theme starter wants to keep on track of his original question, he can make himself heard or seen!
> 
> ...




Well said!  ;-)


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

my preference is that threads stay on topic.
once they drift off, like this one has, other subjects pop up and when you come back to the thread the responses have nothing to do with the OP and you have to sift thru to see what might still be relevant
- obviously my preference accounts for why i will jump back into a thread of my own and point out what i think is off topic. the matter of "public" is a good example. to me the pics of the country road walking had nothing to do with walking a dog in "public". i was surprised that there would be such a wide range of definitions of what is considered "public", but i guess every thread has to go thru a bit of a "definition" process 

1. open ended threads, to me, become more like a canine chat line, even if they stay dog oriented
2 PM's have a purpose besides just posting something that you don't want the general public to read
3. i certainly don't mind differing opinions, debates and arguments; i just like to see real world examples and reasons why they are expressed that still relate to the topic.
4. (imo) when it degenerates to "do what you like and I'll do what i like", the take away value starts to shrink quickly

anyway, i just think if someone scrolls thru a list of topics, they expect to see posts that relate to that topic when they open it. and i know how to use the scroll button; just don't think it should be necessary on every thread 

one last comment on dog walking in public ...
- i gave an example of how it helps certain dogs and will add some more. a dog who is overly reactive always seems to act less reactive when it is either next to me or slightly behind. maybe it is because i am making a conscious effort to show the dog that I will be the one to allow it to show further reaction to what is coming our way. who knows for sure. 
- this is also based on my OPINION that dogs who lead feel like they are more in control. and yes, it's just an OPINION 
- but in many many cases of dogs who will light up at the slightest thing that gets their attention, they have gotten better when they have learned NOT to get ahead of me when I am walking them. That fact, plus lots and lots of walking WITH DISTRACTION present all around them has made every dog with that type of problem improve and become less reactive
- sometimes I will also turn and face the dog when i see a distraction coming our way that i know will trigger a bad response. I happen to think that makes the dog redirect on ME rather than the incoming problem. THAT is when I will do something interactive with the dog, from simple OB to a firm correction, and I happen to believe that this action also gives a clear message to the dog that it is NOT driving the bus
... all OPINONS 
... or call me a control freak; i have no probs with that either 

so if you have had successes with hyper reactive dogs by doing things differently, and with the dog out in front of you, write what you have done that has worked.....

-- that's one of a few reasons why I started the thread in the first place


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

rick smith said:


> my preference is that threads stay on topic.
> once they drift off, like this one has, other subjects pop up and when you come back to the thread the responses have nothing to do with the OP and you have to sift thru to see what might still be relevant
> - obviously my preference accounts for why i will jump back into a thread of my own and point out what i think is off topic. the matter of "public" is a good example. to me the pics of the country road walking had nothing to do with walking a dog in "public". i was surprised that there would be such a wide range of definitions of what is considered "public", but i guess every thread has to go thru a bit of a "definition" process
> 
> ...


I wouldn't call you a control freak, just persnickety and fussy, kind of like Felix Unger. 

I think it's pretty obvious that you changed the parameters of the thread when you didn't get the answers or support you're looking for, which you still haven't even had the courtesy to acknowledge, but whatever.

You keep going back to the "driving the bus" thing, which makes me think you believe it's some sort of universal fact that dogs automatically think they're in charge if they're walking out front, which it's not. 

One thing I know for sure is you and I see most things differently. For example you said " . (imo) when it degenerates to "do what you like and I'll do what i like", the take away value starts to shrink quickly". I don't see that as degeneration, I see that as acknowledgement that there are many ways to the top of the mountain, and different strokes for different folks, but I can see how someone like you, who apparently thinks his way is the only way, can't understand that, which is why I am now done with this thread.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I think that there are several benefits to myself and certain dogs especially to have, or to "allow" them to be in front, even to have them pulling on the leash.

Most dogs I own end up being sold at some point.

There are just simply several reasons that one might want to have a dog in front of them or pulling them in various situations.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

One being it's a dog not a ****n robot


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

I really hate leash walking my dogs, but I have to most evenings because my Princess won't poop in the yard and if don't want to drive them to the off leash area that I go to most mornings, a leash walk is what they get. 

I let them range out ahead of me through the laneway from my backyard to the parkette on the corner, where they stop and sniff and wander around a bit and have a chance to relieve themselves. Then they range ahead of me again across a parking lot until we hit the sidewalk where I tell them to walk nice and expect a sort of heel. There are not a lot of pedestrians where I live, but of the few that I encounter, almost all of them move so that they pass on the dog side of me. I've given up trying to get them to pass on the right side of me, seems that passing left to left is deeply ingrained in Canadian pedestrians. I do expect my dogs to just go past people without any reaction to them. 

I scooter and sled with my dogs. Allowing them to be ahead of me is part of their training - I want them comfortable out front. I work on commands when we walk - not in any formal way, but I pair action with words, so use 'gee/haw' for direction changes and 'on by' for distractions and so on. When they are running ahead of me in harness on the scooter, I have nothing but voice to control them - on leash is the first step in training that control. 

I do think dogs understand context. I have lovely obedience heels with both my dogs on a trial field - okay, so maybe not lovely, but good enough to title, but they cannot walk like that for our nightly walk around the neighbourhood, nor are they allowed to pull me as I expect them to do when in harness... somehow they figure it out without become unmanageable hooligans.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Rick said;
- this is also based on my OPINION that dogs who lead feel like they are more in control. and yes, it's just an OPINION :smile:


Rick, I respect your opinion and understand your reasoning. 
My thought/opinion
If a dog feels in control simply because it walks ahead of the handler then their are management issues between dog and handler that haven't been been defined properly. 
I see folks in my neighborhood walking their dogs all the time. A few, not many of those dogs are in the "correct" position. Many stop and ask what I did to make my dogs lay on my lawn and ignore all the barking, lunging dogs walking with their owners. 
When my wife and I walk our two GSD in the neighborhood the dogs are in front of both of us, NOT pulling. They STILL ignore all the yappers walking with their owners and some even "attempt" to get close because some of these idiots want to see if "your dogs want to play". 
I don't believe my dogs walking in front of me has any relativity to the rest of their manners or my control. That's simply an early on management issue. JMHO of course! :wink:


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Public to me is anywhere I can't control entrances and exit. I tend to keep them in heel position or a down at my feet. I actually agree w/ Rick that a dog ranging out front considers himself leading or first to control a situation. Is it the be all, end all? No. If he's trained, its easy enough to change that by commanding him to a subordinate position.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Also if one has not control over ones dog just because it is 6 ft ahead of one, then I suggest one goes to a qualified behaviourist, ROFL


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Your dog is 6ft in front of you and someone comes towards you with a dog showing a lot of aggression and pulling its owner in an attempt to fight with your dog, do you still have yours in control?

I've encountered this more than once and call mine "Fuss" plus if necessary, a "hanging" however heavy they are - the neck is very often vulnerable when stretched!

I have had only one dog that was fairly neutral to other canines - the others had to learn how to behave but, with canines, nothing is foolproof, or??

Don't make a big issue out of "walking out in front". There are times when it is good and times when it is bad but I determine how the dog has to behave.

There are so many considerations: country (largely populated or not) walking in the forest or walking through the town or village, shopping area or near to schools, playgrounds, etc. Plus hysterical dog owners or just hysterical persons.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Gillian said;
Your dog is 6ft in front of you and someone comes towards you with a dog showing a lot of aggression and pulling its owner in an attempt to fight with your dog, do you still have yours in control?


Yes, I do!
"IF" the other dog would make contact then I have no doubt then it would need physical control but that's never even been close. On those few occasions another dog has come forward towards mine I have had no problem at all in stepping forward to protect my dogs. 
Obviously, in those instances I will have my dog held short and right next to me simply as a matter of leverage if nothing else.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Bob

Why held "short"? Maybe I am not understanding you but a dog held "short" feels your influence and could want to retaliate??

I would leave mine on a loose lead until it doesn't work. then call him Fuss (if that works).


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Matt Vandart said:


> One being it's a dog not a ****n robot


 I think that is clear to all of us - even my husband isn't a ***** Robot.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

I'm not sure it is clear to the OP


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Bob
> 
> Why held "short"? Maybe I am not understanding you but a dog held "short" feels your influence and could want to retaliate??
> 
> I would leave mine on a loose lead until it doesn't work. then call him Fuss (if that works).



Gillian, I agree that a "short" lead can create tension for the dog but here the vast majority of neighborhood dogs are small. It's mostly those little dogs that are the yappers and out of control by their handlers. 
Because of that I would never take the chance of letting my dog retaliate if attacked by one of these little 'furbabies". 
Both my dogs do ignore other dogs but in the instance of one actually attacking I would definitely step in. 
Could my dogs be controlled by voice? Absolutely but that wouldn't help stop the other dog. I do believe that's my job and I would have no qualms about doing whatever is needed to do that.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

The reference is to what the dog's mindset is. If he's trained, that's easily resolved with a command.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> The reference is to what the dog's mindset is. If he's trained, that's easily resolved with a command.




T, you know how well in command Thunder is with me but that only controls my dog. 

Some would say that I'm constantly asking my dog's for obedience and can't just relax when I'm not doing something on the field. 8-[ :grin: :-\":wink:


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