# Bloodlines- Ot Vitosha and Masons Malinois



## julie allen

Honest opinions on both lines please.


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## Howard Gaines III

Julie what are YOU seeing and what do you like or dislike?


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## julie allen

I have one Ot V female who is awesome so far. I had a male Masons who was killed by a car, I could kick myself for that because he was going good. I now have his sister, she is more reserved, but I was really impressed with her brother, her sire and mother. 
I have a retired patrol dog that is Masons as well, he is a big baby. I don't do anything except SAR, and am new to that. I love watching the dogs from LE and we train with them some.


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## Shane Woodlief

julie allen said:


> Honest opinions on both lines please.


Don't know much about Masons but Vitosha is going to cost you a arm, leg, kidney and part of your retirement to own one. :razz:


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## Kevin Walsh

julie allen said:


> Honest opinions on both lines please.


Ot Vitosha has some good dogs in their lines (somewhere LOL), but you will be paying for the name mostly. Ivan cheats at dog sport, so he probably has problems within his breeding ethics as well.


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## Dave Martin

Kevin Walsh said:


> Ot Vitosha has some good dogs in their lines (somewhere LOL), but you will be paying for the name mostly. Ivan cheats at dog sport, so he probably has problems within his breeding ethics as well.


 
Mind elaborating on that? I have only seen his dogs competing in SchH and I have liked every single one. For sport (I guess just Schutzhund, though I would've thought they could excel in other disciplines), I think Ivan's dogs are amazing and have proven that several times over. 

Assuming he's good at selecting appropriate puppies/dogs for appropriate homes (which from what I've seen, he is), I would shell out the money for one as a high-level competition dog, personally..


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## Christopher Jones

Kevin Walsh said:


> Ot Vitosha has some good dogs in their lines (somewhere LOL), but you will be paying for the name mostly. Ivan cheats at dog sport, so he probably has problems within his breeding ethics as well.


 lol. And his mentor was Luc from DDP kennels, who didnt mind putting fake pedigreed NVBK dogs into his bloodlines.


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## julie allen

I already own one Ot Vitosha (didn't come from there). She is awesome, her dad was real nice. The mother was Ot V but died when the pups were 4 weeks old I think.


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## Timothy Saunders

if you are looking for a sch dog I guess you are o.k. HIs contract is a doosie. I think it said that he had the right to stud the dog and he has the right to buy it back first. I was looking 4yrs ago for a dog and kind of remember this stuff


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## julie allen

No sch or ring for me. I am just doing SAR, I am interested in dogs for LE though.


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## Shane Woodlief

Dave Martin said:


> Mind elaborating on that? I have only seen his dogs competing in SchH and I have liked every single one. For sport (I guess just Schutzhund, though I would've thought they could excel in other disciplines), I think Ivan's dogs are amazing and have proven that several times over.
> 
> Assuming he's good at selecting appropriate puppies/dogs for appropriate homes (which from what I've seen, he is), I would shell out the money for one as a high-level competition dog, personally..


You can find better quality of dogs form other highly repitable breeders for a fraction of the cost that a Vitosha dog would cost you and you don't have to deal with all the contract BS either. Ivan is a great handler and great handlers can make any dog look great. That doesn't make the dog great quality.


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## shawn murace

I've worked with a few of Ivans dogs and also the GSD (not his breeding) he campaigned for a bit. All nice dogs and well tempered. A friend of mine just recently got a pup from him as well. I'm not sure of the contractual obligations as the owners of Ivans Mals I work with know Ivan well so there more than likely was/ is no contract.


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## Geoff Empey

Christopher Jones said:


> lol. And his mentor was Luc from DDP kennels, who didnt mind putting fake pedigreed NVBK dogs into his bloodlines.



Thank good for that .. or else all we'd have is pointy eared pretty dogs that couldn't work their way out of a wet paper bag. :lol:


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## Shane Woodlief

Geoff Empey said:


> Thank good for that .. or else all we'd have is pointy eared pretty dogs that couldn't work their way out of a wet paper bag. :lol:


Now that is funny


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## Dave Martin

Shane Woodlief said:


> You can find better quality of dogs form other highly repitable breeders for a fraction of the cost that a Vitosha dog would cost you and you don't have to deal with all the contract BS either. Ivan is a great handler and great handlers can make any dog look great. That doesn't make the dog great quality.


If I were a great handler (which I hope to be some day), I wouldn't doubt that I could achieve as high a level in competition with a nice Mal I've found elsewhere for significantly less money than one of Ivan's dogs. I would argue however that the high price tag is the result of the increased likelihood that said dog will almost definitely be capable of competing at the highest levels (with proper training of course), as illustrated by the breeder's accomplishments.

Personally I've never seen a problem with anyone charging more for proven 'products' that have excelled time and time and time again in whatever they do. Why do people buy Energizer batteries when the store brand is half the price? You put the effort and sweat into achieving something phenomenal, and it makes sense to gain some prestige and ask for more money when you know your dogs are top of the line, IMO.

For the record, if and when I ever venture into the world of the Malinois, I will likely want something more unique that doesn't have an Ot Vitosha tag; I just don't think the price of his puppies is ridiculous when they keep proving themselves on the competition field, with various handlers.


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## Gerry Grimwood

Dave Martin said:


> Why do people buy Energizer batteries when the store brand is half the price?


I think it's called successful marketing.


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## Christopher Jones

Geoff Empey said:


> Thank good for that .. or else all we'd have is pointy eared pretty dogs that couldn't work their way out of a wet paper bag. :lol:


Agreed.


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## Dave Martin

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I think it's called successful marketing.


Absolutely.. combined with the fact that they have superior quality batteries that last longer.


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## Shane Woodlief

Dave Martin said:


> If I were a great handler (which I hope to be some day), I wouldn't doubt that I could achieve as high a level in competition with a nice Mal I've found elsewhere for significantly less money than one of Ivan's dogs. I would argue however that the high price tag is the result of the increased likelihood that said dog will almost definitely be capable of competing at the highest levels (with proper training of course), as illustrated by the breeder's accomplishments.
> 
> Personally I've never seen a problem with anyone charging more for proven 'products' that have excelled time and time and time again in whatever they do. Why do people buy Energizer batteries when the store brand is half the price? You put the effort and sweat into achieving something phenomenal, and it makes sense to gain some prestige and ask for more money when you know your dogs are top of the line, IMO.
> 
> For the record, if and when I ever venture into the world of the Malinois, I will likely want something more unique that doesn't have an Ot Vitosha tag; I just don't think the price of his puppies is ridiculous when they keep proving themselves on the competition field, with various handlers.


I guess we will agree to disagree but I don't think that there is an increased likely hood at all that his will do any better than any other mal from a reputable breeder. I think he is a great trainer - that is a great Marketer (of himself as much as his dogs) that breeds.


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## Mike Scheiber

Shane Woodlief said:


> I guess we will agree to disagree but I don't think that there is an increased likely hood at all that his will do any better than any other mal from a reputable breeder. I think he is a great trainer - that is a great Marketer (of himself as much as his dogs) that breeds.


I like to stack the deck my self for a pup Ill have to disagree also if it were that easy he would never get off the podium.
I ain't crawlin up Ivans ass her but name one other handler breeder here in the US with his consistency kennel or on the field his breeding's ain't out of convenience in doing so ain't cheep.
If I were a Mali guy he would be on or near the top of my short list.


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## brad robert

If that contract bull is for real there is no way i would let the breeder have stud rights on a dog i did all the work on. sounds ridiculous!


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Like others have said i don't think a mali form Ivan would necessarily be better than those from say dantero, mohawks etc. That being said he's a good breeder and i respect that but i wpersonally wouldn't buy a dog for that price, if i had that kind of money i would import from europe - joefarm would be my number one choice.


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## georgia estes

A good friend of mine has an Ot V mali out of Django. He is the smartest dog I have ever encountered in my life. He is almost human. He has titles out the wazoo, lots of drive, great work ethic. He is older now and slowing down a bit but still a hell of a nice dog. I like Ivan, I like his methods, and I think he's an excellent trainer. I don't know about all that cheating crap. I don't know if I believe all that. Although now, I wouldn't pay that much for a mali unless it had wings or something. :/


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## Geoff Empey

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> if i had that kind of money i would import from europe - joefarm would be my number one choice.


Not me, sure there is lots of good breeders on both sides of the pond. But if I had that type of money I'd go to Europe hang out at the Belgian and French Ringsport clubs and buy a dog off the back of a pick up truck from somebody I got drunk with a few times.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Geoff,
Now that i think of it, yeah you may be right. I think working trials are also a good place to buy a dog. The late stud dog of sportwaffen k9-sunshadow's caine was bought in the parking lot at an AWDF competition. I got this extract from caine's page

'Caine came to me when he was around 4.5 years old. He was an extremely strong dog. I met the man I got him from in a parking lot at 3am on the way to an AWDF competition'

So trials may be another place to get good dogs from i think.


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## Mike Scheiber

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> Geoff,
> Now that i think of it, yeah you may be right. I think working trials are also a good place to buy a dog. The late stud dog of sportwaffen k9-sunshadow's caine was bought in the parking lot at an AWDF competition. I got this extract from caine's page
> 
> 'Caine came to me when he was around 4.5 years old. He was an extremely strong dog. I met the man I got him from in a parking lot at 3am on the way to an AWDF competition'
> 
> So trials may be another place to get good dogs from i think.


There a good place to have a look see for sure, maybe talk to some of the people that have worked and trained the dogs or who just know the dogs. Never hurts to ask if the trial helper is someone you respect his opinion or better ask for his phone number.


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## Chris McDonald

Ok I got to ask, about how much is one of this guys dogs?


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## Christopher Jones

brad robert said:


> If that contract bull is for real there is no way i would let the breeder have stud rights on a dog i did all the work on. sounds ridiculous!


 If I sell someone a male from one of my litters I want the ability to take a semen collection without being charged a stud fee. Im not looking to stud the dog out to others and collect money for it, mainly I need to keep the bloodlines that I breed. 
I may also sell a dog to someone with a disclaimer that they do not let my worst enemy buy the dog from them or breed to it.


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## Christopher Jones

Mike Scheiber said:


> I like to stack the deck my self for a pup Ill have to disagree also if it were that easy he would never get off the podium.
> I ain't crawlin up Ivans ass her but name one other handler breeder here in the US with his consistency kennel or on the field his breeding's ain't out of convenience in doing so ain't cheep.
> If I were a Mali guy he would be on or near the top of my short list.


I agree. The one thing Ivan did was show people that you could set up a kennel outside of Europe, selectivly breed on with your lines and have people knocking your door down to buy a pup.


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## brad robert

Christopher Jones said:


> If I sell someone a male from one of my litters I want the ability to take a semen collection without being charged a stud fee. Im not looking to stud the dog out to others and collect money for it, mainly I need to keep the bloodlines that I breed.
> I may also sell a dog to someone with a disclaimer that they do not let my worst enemy buy the dog from them or breed to it.


Christopher i dont see a problem with what you suggested and most breeders i have encountered i would be happy to give a collection to or a service i just would not want the dog to be his to use at his discretion.And to be honest if i here from a breeder "if you want to sell the dog or it doesnt work out for you i want to know" always is encouraging.


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## Geoff Empey

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> So trials may be another place to get good dogs from i think.


I guarantee it Oluwatobi! Nothing gets down to the nitty gritty of being a guest at a club training with the dogs and handlers, learning and more important listening. There is some things that money can't buy. 

People tend to buy into hype it is just human nature. X and Y breeder has this or that champion and people line up trying to touch the magic with their wallets, it is just the way people are. :lol: Business people who are breeders know this, that's why it is called capitalism!


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## Jerry Cudahy

Christopher Jones said:


> lol. And his mentor was Luc from DDP kennels, who didnt mind putting fake pedigreed NVBK dogs into his bloodlines.


If you are going to flame someone Mr Jones. Do try and get your bs straight. Your pie hole is infected with false info.

Ivan has NEVER had anything to do with Luc. N E V E R

Now though anyone who does know the truth knows how u spew shit.

[-X


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## Jerry Cudahy

*Mentors, Myths and Men and the Real Deal*

http://andrevandergeten.com/default.aspx


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## Timothy Stacy

Ivan has super nice dogs from all kinds of pedigrees. Anyone who puts a blanket statement on his dogs is foolish. I got to take some bites off Qenny a couple years ago and I thought the dog was great. Not a spun up dog, very stable and lived in the house with Andy's son and family. Huge bite and obviously a dog that was taken to the top of his sport with the most competition in the world. He was indifferent to me but never made me think he'd take a chunk out of me when he was out to go to the bath room. To me I love dogs like this. The malinois that spin in their kennel, can't shut up, can't relax, are not the dogs I like. 

As for the other kennel, I'd see there dogs work first (i can't find any video of their dogs working)and make sure they have some sort of health certs.


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## Kadi Thingvall

Something I haven't seen anyone mention yet, is when you buy a dog from certain breeders, you aren't just buying a dog, but a support system. And depending on WHO is providing that support system, ie someone with Ivan's track record as a trainer and competitor vs John Doe down the street who just bred his bitch to the first male he could find, that support system is worth something. Possibly as much or more then the price of the actual dog. I know more then one person who has bought an Ot Vitosha dog because it was a good dog, but just as important, because it meant they could pick up the phone or fire off an email to Ivan and get good solid advice for whatever the problem was. It also meant possible priority at seminars and other training events, and being part of a team that includes many top competitors.


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## Dave Martin

Definitely agree with Kadi's point. To me, having a breeder who knows your puppy's lines very well, to the point where he/she has competed successfully at high levels with some of it's ancestors, is an unbelievable asset when you're hitting road blocks in your training. Another reason I personally don't think his prices are that unreasonable.


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## Harry Keely

Not saying good or bad about either side of the pond. Vitosha I would consider Masons would not just do to the fact of don't know much about them other than they exist. But for Ivans prices there are other pups from dutch lines here in the USA that you can buy two for the price of one of Ivans and are just as good if not better. Or you can pretty much pick a breeding from across seas of your genetic likings for around the same price. As far as adults wouldn't go near either of them for their prices when I can get one from cross seas already to go for two for the price of one from here. Once again JMO.


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## Kevin Walsh

Dave Martin said:


> Mind elaborating on that? I have only seen his dogs competing in SchH and I have liked every single one. For sport (I guess just Schutzhund, though I would've thought they could excel in other disciplines), I think Ivan's dogs are amazing and have proven that several times over.
> 
> Assuming he's good at selecting appropriate puppies/dogs for appropriate homes (which from what I've seen, he is), I would shell out the money for one as a high-level competition dog, personally..


 I asked a fellow club member of theirs (now deceased so I don't mind sharing) why Ivan and Dre got DQ'd from the FMI world tournament. His response:

"Dre, Shawn and Ivan were out on the tracking fields. Shawn didn't get caught but dre and ivan did.

Between me an you, Ivan is a total douchebag."


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## Jeff Oehlsen

One day maybe I will meet Ivan, and then will know if he is as naughty as everyone says. LOL

When you are doing your research, you should look at what that person has available as far as breedings, and then research as best you can the dogs in the pedigrees.

You are going to like X amount of dogs better on one pedigree than the other pedigree. THEN you can see if they are doing a repeat breeding and see how that litter did.

THEN, there is the reality that the logistics of dog sport are horrible, so you need to take into consideration all the stuff that goes along with that.

THEN, you have to make a choice. the breeder could pick a pup out of a litter for you, and I know others could as well, and if you have someone like that, take them with. They have no vested interest, so maybe they go with you to see both litters and see nothing they like, or they see all kinds of pups they like. That is a good way to go as well.

One of the problems that could happen with Ivan, as all of them are sold before they are born. Then there is no picking for you, but probably a waiting list. I am not a fan of this personally, but good for him. That is really a good deal for a breeder.

Hope you get what you want.


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## Timothy Stacy

Kevin Walsh said:


> I asked a fellow club member of theirs (now deceased so I don't mind sharing) why Ivan and Dre got DQ'd from the FMI world tournament. His response:
> 
> "Dre, Shawn and Ivan were out on the tracking fields. Shawn didn't get caught but dre and ivan did.
> 
> Between me an you, Ivan is a total douchebag."


Sorry to hear your friend passed, but to write this on a public forum about someone you have never met??????


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## Joby Becker

Timothy Stacy said:


> Sorry to hear your friend passed, but to write this on a public forum about someone you have never met??????


That NEVER happens here......:-\":-\":-\"
The real question is, is it TRUE?


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## Mario Fernandez

Their are always two sides to every story...


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## Christopher Jones

Jerry Cudahy said:


> If you are going to flame someone Mr Jones. Do try and get your bs straight. Your pie hole is infected with false info.
> 
> Ivan has NEVER had anything to do with Luc. N E V E R
> 
> Now though anyone who does know the truth knows how u spew shit.
> 
> [-X


I seriously hope your trying to be funny, either way your a dick. :roll:
Hows your new ring organisation going? Still noone wants to play with you?


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## Anna Kasho

Someone recommended Masons when I was searching for a first dog, but I had a hard time communicating with them, passed them up because I couldn't be sure I'd get what I wanted. There are two Masons kennels, the father and the son, BTW. I haven't seen enough of their dogs to judge what they produce, seen a couple that weren't that good...


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## Debbie Skinner

I first met Ivan when he was working with JC Balu in the early 90s, when he recently moved to the States. Then the second time at a French ring seminar (STARS in El Dorado, CA) in the early 90s (was then working in the Bay area..I believe training guide dogs). At the ring seminar, he brought his female Nikkita 2 Pottois (breeder of Deux Pottois is Luc V.). Nice female. Some years later he bred a female to Sims (one of Luc's stud dogs). I believe that was the "C" litter. Personally, I didn't care for that litter much. I do know he has used and owned dogs with 2 Pottois papers. I've seen some nice dogs from him. Any of us breeders produce both good, okay and some bad ones too as is normal. I liked Bomber a lot, Kathy O'Brien's male (Igor x Nikkita.. I think that was the breeding).


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## Christopher Jones

Debbie Skinner said:


> I first met Ivan when he was working with JC Balu in the early 90s, when he recently moved to the States. Then the second time at a French ring seminar (STARS in El Dorado, CA) in the early 90s (was then working in the Bay area..I believe training guide dogs). At the ring seminar, he brought his female Nikkita 2 Pottois (breeder of Deux Pottois is Luc V.). Nice female. Some years later he bred a female to Sims (one of Luc's stud dogs). I believe that was the "C" litter. Personally, I didn't care for that litter much. I do know he has used and owned dogs with 2 Pottois papers. I've seen some nice dogs from him. Any of us breeders produce both good, okay and some bad ones too as is normal. I liked Bomber a lot, Kathy O'Brien's male (Igor x Nikkita.. I think that was the breeding).


Thats pretty much what I understand. Ivan used Lucs dogs and got advice on early combinations from Luc. There was even a photo of the two of them together at the FMBB in France I think it was.
But maybe Jerry was joking.


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## Joby Becker

Debbie Skinner said:


> At the ring seminar, he brought his female Nikkita 2 Pottois (breeder of Deux Pottois is Luc V.). Nice female. Some years later he bred a female to Sims (one of Luc's stud dogs). I believe that was the "C" litter. Personally, I didn't care for that litter much. I do know he has used and owned dogs with 2 Pottois papers.





Jerry Cudahy said:


> Ivan has NEVER had anything to do with Luc. N E V E R
> [-X


sounds like a discrepancy to me.


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## brad robert

Freaking huge discrepancy! So the question still remains why was he eliminated from the competition?They surely would not eliminate you for nothing?


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## Kelly McCulloch

One thing I will say is that I have never seen prior or since the intelligence that was present in the Bomber x Eureka combo... Ivan will say the same thing about Django (I owned Dite). As somebody stated earlier it is/was a human like intelligence. And that breeding is heavy G'Bibber/G'Vitou... so in looking back at that Dick thread (and reading with interest Martines response to those dogs) I came across the pedigree info for Cartouche that spoke of his raw power and CLEAR head. Is that the source of that intelligence? Were G'Bibber and G'Vitou extreme thinking dogs? If a breeder wanted to put back in thinking ability to a line (w/o crappy jumping ability) where do you go? What are the current bloodlines known for this type of thinking ability...?


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## Joby Becker

from AWMA magazine..

"It should be noted that the championship title was nearly earned by long time supporter and founding member Ivan Balabanov and his homebred malinois Qenny ot Vitosha. Qenny and Ivan turned in a stellar performance scoring 96-96-95 *until it was discovered that he made a costly error in having a toy on his self during the tracking phase, resulting in a disqualification from the trial*. Let this be a reminder to all of us as handlers to please remember and respect the established rules set forth by the FCI. This error ultimately led to knocking Ivan’s first place performance out of the position of National Champion. The disqualification was decided by the presiding tracking judge, and fully accepted by Ivan Balabanov as he realized his lapse in judgement."

This is the "official" explanation of the disqualification...have no idea if it is the truth, don't care much, but also seems it could be a way of explaining a disquailfication of a long time supporter and founding member without stating that he cheated as was stated.


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## Debbie Skinner

Kelly McCulloch said:


> One thing I will say is that I have never seen prior or since the intelligence that was present in the Bomber x Eureka combo... Ivan will say the same thing about Django (I owned Dite). As somebody stated earlier it is/was a human like intelligence. And that breeding is heavy G'Bibber/G'Vitou... so in looking back at that Dick thread (and reading with interest Martines response to those dogs) I came across the pedigree info for Cartouche that spoke of his raw power and CLEAR head. Is that the source of that intelligence? Were G'Bibber and G'Vitou extreme thinking dogs? If a breeder wanted to put back in thinking ability to a line (w/o crappy jumping ability) where do you go? What are the current bloodlines known for this type of thinking ability...?


Eureka and Ello du Rez-La-Ville are littermates (Sister & Brother) and is Django from the same litter as Dite or out of Ello? I know he used both in his breeding program. I know these 2 dogs personally as I helped to import them for Kathy and Shelley those many years ago from Michel Valladon (breeder and trainer). Both are very, very smart and I believe from Kind 2 Pottois out of G'Bibber..or maybe G'Vitou on the papers..


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## Joby Becker

Joby Becker said:


> from AWMA magazine..
> 
> "It should be noted that the championship title was nearly earned by long time supporter and founding member Ivan Balabanov and his homebred malinois Qenny ot Vitosha. Qenny and Ivan turned in a stellar performance scoring 96-96-95 *until it was discovered that he made a costly error in having a toy on his self during the tracking phase, resulting in a disqualification from the trial*. Let this be a reminder to all of us as handlers to please remember and respect the established rules set forth by the FCI. This error ultimately led to knocking Ivan’s first place performance out of the position of National Champion. The disqualification was decided by the presiding tracking judge, and fully accepted by Ivan Balabanov as he realized his lapse in judgement."
> 
> This is the "official" explanation of the disqualification...have no idea if it is the truth, don't care much, but also seems it could be a way of explaining a disquailfication of a long time supporter and founding member without stating that he cheated as was stated.


sorry that was from a while back, not the one in question....


susan tuck said:


> He DQ'ed at the 2010 FMBB. I heard it had to do with being out on the tracking fields the night before.


seems that more than just Kevin has heard this....


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## Debbie Skinner

I answered my own question about Dite and Django by going to the working-dog.eu peds and looking up their offspring.

Ello: http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/1670/Ello du Rez-la-Ville/

Eureka: http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/2215/Eureka-du-Rez-la-Ville


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## brad robert

Joby Becker said:


> from AWMA magazine..
> 
> "It should be noted that the championship title was nearly earned by long time supporter and founding member Ivan Balabanov and his homebred malinois Qenny ot Vitosha. Qenny and Ivan turned in a stellar performance scoring 96-96-95 *until it was discovered that he made a costly error in having a toy on his self during the tracking phase, resulting in a disqualification from the trial*. Let this be a reminder to all of us as handlers to please remember and respect the established rules set forth by the FCI. This error ultimately led to knocking Ivan’s first place performance out of the position of National Champion. The disqualification was decided by the presiding tracking judge, and fully accepted by Ivan Balabanov as he realized his lapse in judgement."
> 
> This is the "official" explanation of the disqualification...have no idea if it is the truth, don't care much, but also seems it could be a way of explaining a disquailfication of a long time supporter and founding member without stating that he cheated as was stated.


Interesting info thanks for posting


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## Kelly McCulloch

Hi Debbie, both Dite and Django are out of Eureka, the first of 3 breedings between Eureka and Bomber. I am friends with Kathy so have spent time around both Eureka and Bomber, and have heard some amazing tales about them (Eureka taking a shower by herself, Bomber retrieving toys by name from a dresser, etc). Michel Valladon worked Dite quite a bit in her life, and liked her (I believe he said she was better than her Mom). I took Dite to France to train with Michel while Bomber was competing at the Mondio worlds... actually I was just watching some tapes of that training and I dog named Joker being worked. What a dog he was! (splat goes the decoy). Anyhow it is good to hear about Kind, and where this is coming from.


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## Debbie Skinner

Kelly McCulloch said:


> Hi Debbie, both Dite and Django are out of Eureka, the first of 3 breedings between Eureka and Bomber. I am friends with Kathy so have spent time around both Eureka and Bomber, and have heard some amazing tales about them (Eureka taking a shower by herself, Bomber retrieving toys by name from a dresser, etc). Michel Valladon worked Dite quite a bit in her life, and liked her (I believe he said she was better than her Mom). I took Dite to France to train with Michel while Bomber was competing at the Mondio worlds... actually I was just watching some tapes of that training and I dog named Joker being worked. What a dog he was! (splat goes the decoy). Anyhow it is good to hear about Kind, and where this is coming from.


Yes, Christian's dog Jokker. I had "Bunny" a sister to Jokker that I bought from Michel as a puppy. I later sold her. http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/510421/Just-Because-I-Wanna-du-Rez-la-Ville 

Breeding between Hoskan (Michel's dog that was later imported to the States) and Eureka.


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## Timothy Stacy

It was a honest mistake from what I heard. He had the dog out and put him away before his turn tracking. He put the tug in his back pocket and forgot about it. How the hell is a tug gonna help you in tracking? Plus why would he leave it so people could see it? Not directed at you Joby!


Joby Becker said:


> from AWMA magazine..
> 
> "It should be noted that the championship title was nearly earned by long time supporter and founding member Ivan Balabanov and his homebred malinois Qenny ot Vitosha. Qenny and Ivan turned in a stellar performance scoring 96-96-95 *until it was discovered that he made a costly error in having a toy on his self during the tracking phase, resulting in a disqualification from the trial*. Let this be a reminder to all of us as handlers to please remember and respect the established rules set forth by the FCI. This error ultimately led to knocking Ivan’s first place performance out of the position of National Champion. The disqualification was decided by the presiding tracking judge, and fully accepted by Ivan Balabanov as he realized his lapse in judgement."
> 
> This is the "official" explanation of the disqualification...have no idea if it is the truth, don't care much, but also seems it could be a way of explaining a disquailfication of a long time supporter and founding member without stating that he cheated as was stated.


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## Joby Becker

Timothy Stacy said:


> It was a honest mistake from what I heard. He had the dog out and put him away before his turn tracking. He put the tug in his back pocket and forgot about it. How the hell is a tug gonna help you in tracking? Plus why would he leave it so people could see it? Not directed at you Joby!


LOL...that was the wrong one anyhow...LOL.
I dont care, dont know many people in IPO, I do think on paper Ivan is the man though...
so what about the FMBB in 2010? there are 2 people on here that said he was on the tracking field the night before....


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## Timothy Stacy

Joby Becker said:


> LOL...that was the wrong one anyhow...LOL.
> I dont care, dont know many people in IPO, I do think on paper Ivan is the man though...
> so what about the FMBB in 2010? there are 2 people on here that said he was on the tracking field the night before....


Don't know much about it. Was he out there with the dog? Or just looking at the tracking field? Either way he still has to do it when it's time to take his turn. For me, i care about his knowledge not these incidents. Maybe mandatory pat downs??? Check those ring vests for food crumbs  When your at the top people want to bring you down.


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## Christopher Jones

Timothy Stacy said:


> Don't know much about it. Was he out there with the dog? Or just looking at the tracking field? Either way he still has to do it when it's time to take his turn. For me, i care about his knowledge not these incidents. Maybe mandatory pat downs??? Check those ring vests for food crumbs  When your at the top people want to bring you down.


 Maybe one of thise TSA airport screening machines?


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## Gina Pasieka

I was actually there for the first tracking incident. Excellent track, but when he reported back to the judge he took a flexible frisbee out of his pocket and threw it for the dog. You are not supposed to have anything on you that could be considered a reward for the dog. I would consider that an honest mistake #-o. The second incident I have only heard hearsay, so I don't want to perpetuate rumors if what I was told is false.


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## Timothy Stacy

Christopher Jones said:


> Maybe one of thise TSA airport screening machines?


Could you imagine Ivan getting pat down at a event?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ey7PqqQb0n0


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## Nicole Stark

ha ha, I found that totally ridiculous. Very funny. =D>


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## Joby Becker

Timothy Stacy said:


> Could you imagine Ivan getting pat down at a event?
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ey7PqqQb0n0


*LOL*


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## Kevin Walsh

You don't get DQ's from a World compitition by mistake. A cheater is a cheater, and there is no place for it in dog sport (or anywhere else IMHO). 

The picture of Ivan and Luc (Des Deux Pottois) is on Ivan's site:

http://www.malinoispuppies.com/faq.html


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## Christopher Jones

Kevin Walsh said:


> You don't get DQ's from a World compitition by mistake. A cheater is a cheater, and there is no place for it in dog sport (or anywhere else IMHO).
> 
> The picture of Ivan and Luc (Des Deux Pottois) is on Ivan's site:
> 
> http://www.malinoispuppies.com/faq.html


Yep, they look like they have NEVER met EVER. lol


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## Geoff Empey

Kevin Walsh said:


> The picture of Ivan and Luc (Des Deux Pottois) is on Ivan's site:


LOL and I have a picture of me and Ozzy Osbourne from back stage at a concert. He didn't teach me to eat heads off of bats and doves the one time I met him, I learn't that all my self! :mrgreen:


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## Christopher Smith

All of this speculation can be cleared up by contacting the organizations that handled the event or sent Ivan to the event. Very simple.

But what fun would that be?:razz:


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## Bob Scott

This has gone from a discussion on blood lines to if Ivan B is guilty or not. 
Ivan B doesn't belong to the WDF and has no way of offering an explanation or defence so I'm going to close this thread.


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