# Dutch Shepherd Pup



## jeff gamber (Feb 15, 2010)

Wondering if I can get some suggestions on breaking a bad habit of my 4 month old dutch shepherd pup:

Super confident pup, but I live in a nicely populated area of Tampa and his prey drive overloads him when he sees anything moving, predominately cars. He will load up and lash out with aggression and need to bite anything, usually his leash, me, etc... I try to redirect him with keys or his tug, but sometimes that doesn't work. This particular habit makes it difficult for me to maximize his exposure.

Any suggestions would help...


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Its a useless behavior and sounds like a good one to impose pack leader ship, clobber him and say no sound easy enough?


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## jeff gamber (Feb 15, 2010)

Thats been my only option. Just looking for validation on it I guess...

thanks


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Post a pedigree would ya.


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Jeff,why do you wait for the pup to load up?You are by now probably anxious when you see a car coming and the pup picks up on this,by now you are a big part of the problem. Oh my ,there is a car coming,you tense up and you know what happens.Pedigree has nothing to do with it.Redirect before he reacts to a car,use your imagination.Take him on his walk hungry and be on the lookout for anything that sets him off,stop and feed him from your hand.He will soon learn to ignore things.He is way to young to clobber him,it is your fault not his.


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## jeff gamber (Feb 15, 2010)

I won't even reply to Jacks post.

Jeff, I always love your advice, so your help is greatly appreciated. The extent I have on his pedigree is Wibo and Dushi van Leeuwan on one of the grandparents side.


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

That was kind of rude [-X You asked for opinions (I think).

How about giving the pup a tug in his mouth when you go for walks? I know Bogan lived with a tug in his mouth for the first year of his life.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Candy Eggert said:


> That was kind of rude [-X You asked for opinions (I think).
> 
> How about giving the pup a tug in his mouth when you go for walks? I know Bogan lived with a tug in his mouth for the first year of his life.


I agree. I somewhat agree with Jack as well. I just wouldn't use food. I just personally don't like it in that type of situation. I would however, busy the dog with some sort of activity. Whether it's an obediance routine or a game, such as the tug, but something other than just outright "clobber" the dog. 

DFrost


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Jeff,did i offend you in any way?You asked for opinions and i responded,good luck clubbering your pup.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

A dog overloads on me and he will get a boot in the azz. They have to learn to control their behavior and redirecting a dog every time something comes up doesn't teach them. There are a lot of cars out there and you can spend the rest of your life redirecting....or you can teach him some control. I do agree with Jack in as much as your body language. Make sure your not triggering the response first, then make sure he doesn't enjoy the response he gets from biting you. But that is just me.


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Don, the dog is only four months old.I would agree with you if the dog was an adult,imo if a pup from this bloodline is being treated this way poor Jeff will get bit .I bet he is charching his ecollar right at this moment.


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

I think I'd hold off booting a 4 month old puppy in the ass. That's like kicking a 1 year old baby's ass. It's not going to be effective. 
I'd use some of the other methods first, and if they fail, by the time you know they fail, the pup will be big enough to kick in the ass.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

jack van strien said:


> Don, the dog is only four months old.I would agree with you if the dog was an adult,imo if a pup from this bloodline is being treated this way poor Jeff will get bit .I bet he is charching his ecollar right at this moment.


I know the pup is only 4 mo old. What better time is there to teach him that biting the boss is not a good thing to do. I sure wouldn't wait till he is older. A sensible person is not going to hurt the pup but he can be made darn uncomfortable for taking a swipe at the hand that feeds him. I know much of this redirection that is so popular today is done to keep from shying a dog up . If some needed correction is going to shy a dog up then the dog isn't worth much to anyone. I posted an incident with BlackJack some time back where he took a swipe at me and grabbed my hand. He was a bit older but I whacked him pretty darn good because he was older than 4 mo. I grabbed him by the collar and did the same thing that pissed him off and he turned and showed me a mouthfull of teeth and I pasted him again. Then I repeated the scenario and he did nothing. I am his best buddy and the dog will never try that manuever again. Took all of 1 minute and he is corrected for life. Biting the owner for any reason should be stopped as young as possible. Pups are impressionable and easy to work with. I don't buy redirection for bad behavior that can be cleaned up in a few minutes. You watch pups with their parents and when that pup starts chewing on them they give a warning growl. If it goes unheeded they grab that pup and roll him in the dirt and make him cry. Are they really huirting them? No. The horrendous noise the parents make while disciplining the pups scares the crap out of them. That is how pups learn what is, and isn't, acceptable. A lot of problems people have with adult dogs could have easily been stopped forever as pups......but they chose redirection instead of correction.


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

The OP never said the pup was re-directing on him. Just loading (over). This is something I'm familiar with as well. Food never fixed it for him...he'd take it and spit it out. Butthead.

Working with these kinds of triggers were worked best at distances at first and slowly adding closer proximity. Once you get the desired behavior then reward/play. This behavior (with these types of dogs) is not something that they can be corrected out of IMO. In fact it could cause the displaced aggression that you DON'T have at the moment. Good luck!


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Ashley Campbell said:


> I think I'd hold off booting a 4 month old puppy in the ass. That's like kicking a 1 year old baby's ass. It's not going to be effective.
> I'd use some of the other methods first, and if they fail, by the time you know they fail, the pup will be big enough to kick in the ass.


Figure of speach Ashley. I generally grab the pup by the neck and put him at eye level and scream in their face. And I scream loud. 6, 7 and 8 week old pups that are really bitey, I just lean over and growl in their ear and they stop biting immediately and start licking the spot they were biting. Mom and dad taught them about a serious growl. Y'all have to quit taking everything word for word. Most people are not really going to kick a 4 mo old pup around. I am going to kick him in the azz is a very stern way of saying the pup should not get away with bad behavior. It is THE BEST TIME TO TEACH THEM. Four mo is about the age that all the aunts and mom and dad cease putting up with poor behavior from the pups also. They all get rougher and they all discipline.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Candy Eggert said:


> The OP never said the pup was re-directing on him. Just loading (over). This is something I'm familiar with as well. Food never fixed it for him...he'd take it and spit it out. Butthead.
> 
> Working with these kinds of triggers were worked best at distances at first and slowly adding closer proximity. Once you get the desired behavior then reward/play. This behavior (with these types of dogs) is not something that they can be corrected out of IMO. In fact it could cause the displaced aggression that you DON'T have at the moment. Good luck!


Candy, the OP said the pup lashes out at anything close. Usually the the leash, *me*, etc.


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Candy, the OP said the pup lashes out at anything close. Usually the the leash, *me*, etc.


You're right Don ;-) I missed the "me" part! But I'd still work this as has been suggested by several trainers in this thread before putting a pup in a defensive situation when he's already "loaded".


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I am not a trainer for sure Candy. Probably why I won't make excuses why a 4 mo old pup should be allowed to take swipes at me just because he is excited. I don't put my dogs into defense at a young age. I make it immediately clear to them this is ground they don't want to cover, period. Because it is done at a young age, I don't have to do it when they are older and more apt to take a defensive stance that I may not win. Actually, Jeff mshould have nipped this in the bud the first time out the gate and been done with it. In my opinion of course. :wink:


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Figure of speach Ashley. I generally grab the pup by the neck and put him at eye level and scream in their face. And I scream loud. 6, 7 and 8 week old pups that are really bitey, I just lean over and growl in their ear and they stop biting immediately and start licking the spot they were biting. Mom and dad taught them about a serious growl. Y'all have to quit taking everything word for word. Most people are not really going to kick a 4 mo old pup around. I am going to kick him in the azz is a very stern way of saying the pup should not get away with bad behavior. It is THE BEST TIME TO TEACH THEM. Four mo is about the age that all the aunts and mom and dad cease putting up with poor behavior from the pups also. They all get rougher and they all discipline.


I knew what was meant. But saying a boot in the ass means something different to everyone. I've had an adult dog try to take a chunk out of me, and get a swift boot to the head for his effort - and it meant just that, I laid him out via my foot and literally knocked him down for it. 
For that situation, I don't think that's extreme. But you have to think that other people lurk on here and might get the idea that "oh just kick the puppies ass" is the way to go, without the idea of what the "ass kicking" entails.
Harsh correction? Sure thing, literally getting it's ass kicked - too young yet, IMO. I'm not saying don't correct fluffy, I'm just saying that it can be read as leaving a mudhole where the pups ass used to be.


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## kristin tresidder (Oct 23, 2008)

jeff gamber said:


> The extent I have on his pedigree is Wibo and Dushi van Leeuwan on one of the grandparents side.


where did you get the dog from?


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

kristin tresidder said:


> where did you get the dog from?


Same question here.....

And for the "clubbering-types"; no wonder you, "over the pond" can't keep/work a good working dog/pup and destroy everything.:???:
How stupid to clubber a 4 months old pup. In this bloodline it means you destroy it or you are "teaching" it to fight you. Either way you won't be able to work it. So, go clubber it, so the pup can end his live at the table of a vet.:evil:

Dick


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Ashley Campbell said:


> But you have to think that other people lurk on here and might get the idea that "oh just kick the puppies ass" is the way to go, without the idea of what the "ass kicking" entails.


Ashley is right people and obviously have the capacity for taking that kind of advice too literally. I've got a friend who seems to solicit all of his dog rearing/training advice from forums. An example of this is an incident that occurred with his first dog. Apparently he didn't realize his young dog was having seizures and one day after catching him come out of one which led to him barking crazily and jumping up on his kid he admittedly "beat the shit" out of him. Why? This is what he knew to do for "aggression". Evidently, he wasn't aware of what caused this bizarre display of "aggression". 

That dog is long gone (euthanized) and several more have come in and out of his home since then. Now he's dealing with submissive urination for which he "knocks the ever living shit" of out him for doing it. Why? The reason for this is quite different. He sees this behavior as weak and it obviously triggers some sort of inappropriate response from him towards his dog.

My only point is most of the time we don't really know who we are dealing with in these forums and that kind of advice can be taken literally and to extremes.


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## Debbie High (Jul 2, 2006)

Jeff, there is a short Micheal Ellis video on the Leerburg.com website regarding "capping drives". It might be helpful for you to watch it. Learning self-control doesn't happen overnight....they need a good handler to mature into nice workable adults. 

Best regards,
Debbie


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## jeff gamber (Feb 15, 2010)

Little clarification, Th pup is not getting "clubbered" or triggered by my stance. It is all play time with this little guy. It's just a simple fact that during his socialization time he "keys" in on cars, but is getting better during more exposure and some different tactics such as redirecting through a tug, keys, etc. It's just at times that doesn't work at was looking for advice on the times a redirect or sharp "no" doesn't work.

As for Jack and your ecollar comment, thats precisely the tone and wording I took offense to in your earlier post. I'm so sure you have found success in all aspects of your life that makes you an excellent dog trainer, handler, driving a mercedes, seven figure house, the "goods" to make you feel like your comments and over all posting (specifically to me) give you the sense of supremecy to someone just asking for advice or experience of others. Maybe we can compare homes and benzs sometime, just an idea...


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## Lamar Blackmor (Aug 1, 2010)

Nicole Stark said:


> Ashley is right people and obviously have the capacity for taking that kind of advice too literally. I've got a friend who seems to solicit all of his dog rearing/training advice from forums. An example of this is an incident that occurred with his first dog. Apparently he didn't realize his young dog was having seizures and one day after catching him come out of one which led to him barking crazily and jumping up on his kid he admittedly "beat the shit" out of him. Why? This is what he knew to do for "aggression". Evidently, he wasn't aware of what caused this bizarre display of "aggression".
> 
> That dog is long gone (euthanized) and several more have come in and out of his home since then. Now he's dealing with submissive urination for which he "knocks the ever living shit" of out him for doing it. Why? The reason for this is quite different. He sees this behavior as weak and it obviously triggers some sort of inappropriate response from him towards his dog.
> 
> My only point is most of the time we don't really know who we are dealing with in these forums and that kind of advice can be taken literally and to extremes.


sounds like a real winner of a human being. this jerkoff should have a pet rock. jeff gambler you sound like a pompous snob yourself. take your benzos and shove them up your yanghole.


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## Lamar Blackmor (Aug 1, 2010)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Same question here.....
> 
> And for the "clubbering-types"; no wonder you, "over the pond" can't keep/work a good working dog/pup and destroy everything.:???:
> How stupid to clubber a 4 months old pup. In this bloodline it means you destroy it or you are "teaching" it to fight you. Either way you won't be able to work it. So, go clubber it, so the pup can end his live at the table of a vet.:evil:
> ...


amen


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## jeff gamber (Feb 15, 2010)

Second clarification, when I said I was looking for validation on the "clobber" advice, tht was merely a cheeky repsonse. In no way do I or agree with that. My interpreatation to the "clobber" was delivering a sharp no or other ways to work him through it.


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## jeff gamber (Feb 15, 2010)

Lamar, I'll accept that comment from you. The comment was out of annoyance with another poster on this thread. 

I do apologize if that's how it came off, I just dislike when other people talk down to or respond with saracsm to people that are asking for help


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Hes got 31 post so far and obviously doesn't know the mono tones or the likes of many on here. He is asking for help because he is saying that he is trying the ideas that many of us are putting out there to assist him with a dilemma. He has stated he has not kick the dogs ass ( clobbered him ). Obviously hasn't e-collar the dog from the above statement. Jeff I have to say to continue with the the re direction of a tug of some sort. Maybe pay more attention to reading the little friggers body language look for his little cues that are stating that okay I'm getting ready to fight a couple ton piece of metal and nip it in the ass and redirect him with a toy of some sort. It will not happen over night but will happen with repittion and consistency JMO. Good luck with your issues, hope you guys can come to a common ground and work in unity.

As far as houses and benz's **** all that shit and take that to the Trump forum\\/, cars and houses don't make a dog. The handler and the dog make the team.

Obviously hes not looking for sarcasm but is looking for some legit help on here, there is many of folks on here that have the knowledge so offer it up, sounds like the redirects he is trying and that some of us are offering aren't work, he doesn't sound like he wants to ruining the dog, but at the same time wants to let the dog know who the boss is through positive fixing.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

jack van strien said:


> Jeff,why do you wait for the pup to load up?You are by now probably anxious when you see a car coming and the pup picks up on this,by now you are a big part of the problem. Oh my ,there is a car coming,you tense up and you know what happens.Pedigree has nothing to do with it.Redirect before he reacts to a car,use your imagination.Take him on his walk hungry and be on the lookout for anything that sets him off,stop and feed him from your hand.He will soon learn to ignore things.He is way to young to clobber him,it is your fault not his.


I didn't think there was anything offensive about that post at all, maybe a little passionate, but not offensive.


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Jeff,i am not getting into a mudslinging contest with you,i had no intention to offend you in anyway and according to you i have offended a lot of other people with other postings as well.
I here by apologize to anyone i have hurt by trying to give advice or express my opinion.
As for not clubbering you dog,please reread you first response in this thread.
I do not recall ever having said i was a better trainer or handler then any one else.
I will also not discuss with you what material things i have or dont have,this is a working dog forum.
I do not mind at all you being a far superior human being then i am.
The undertone in my first response was something like this,a four month old pup can not have bad habits.
he can display unwanted behaviour but that is all,i merely suggested that you can stop this behaviour by not letting the dog go in overdrive.Something like closing the tap before the bucket runs over.
My second posting,well to be honest you kind of offended me,hence the ecollar comment.
I reread all of the posts you wrote on this forum and seeing the kind of questions you asked i was thinking you are relatively new to dogsport in general.I could be wrong,please forgive me if i am.
I have a lot to learn in life,thank you for taking the time to correct me.
I will not respond to any of your posts again so feel free to spill the beans.
I feel sorry for your dog.


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## jeff gamber (Feb 15, 2010)

Maggie and Jack, I probably just took it the wrong way. I was just very apprehensive to post something because of the possibility of receiving saracastic responses and probably just read too much or too little into it and was over sensitive to it.

I apologize to Jack for my misinterpretation.


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

So, your dog has lots of prey drive & he's expressing it when he sees moving cars. Go somewhere so he can see the moving cars, but far enough away so he doesn't react to them. Bring a ball on a string & play tug with him before he starts acting up. If you only take the ball out when he acts a certain way, when he wants to play, he's going to act up so you play with him. Gradually get closer to the traffic as he begins to calm down-eventually he'll get used to the traffic. If you punish him for acting like he's supposed to act, he's going to be a very confused puppy. It won't happen in a day or a week-you have a dog with high drive-he's doing what puppies do & you need to figure him out. Help your boy out. Play recall games with him, play tug with him-teach him to sit & then reward him-occupy him with training & fun & he'll forget his car fetish. He's got drive & he's bored.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

jeff gamber said:


> Maggie and Jack, I probably just took it the wrong way. I was just very apprehensive to post something because of the possibility of receiving saracastic responses and probably just read too much or too little into it and was over sensitive to it.
> 
> I apologize to Jack for my misinterpretation.


 
A wee tip for you....Jack's one of the good guys on here :wink:, you'll just need to brace yourself better in future, lots of sarky gits on here but worth riding at least some/most of it out.


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Thanks Maggie,have a nice day.


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## jeff gamber (Feb 15, 2010)

Jack I appreciate the repost (except the last line), but I can live with that.

I guess I should be clearer with my orginal post. His behavoir is improving daily by just exposing him daily to cars. It's just when the redirect didn't work with keys, tugs, etc. on a walk (whether my inexperience or not) and he "lashes out", I have tried to to get down to his level and say "no", breaking out the secondary tug, whatever. Should I keep walking saying "no", allow him to just come off naturally (I would think this actually reinforces his behavoir). 

Thanks for all the responses and they have answered my oroginal post, but more suggestions are alwyas welcome, hopefully yours as well Jack...


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## Kat LaPlante (May 17, 2009)

Have you considered ecollar? Put it on vibrate since the dogs still a baby and that may be enough of a startle to stop the behaviour. if you haven't seen the Leerburg video on ecollar use and you are not proficient and efficient with the tool gove it a watch you will learn alot about timing.

I dont know much about the van Leewen dogs but arent they bred to be quite reactive and powerful?


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

[email protected] if you have Dushi x Wibo in your bloodline, you should have the dog from Mike S or Lque (from Canada).
If so, this is an accidental litter result out of brother-sistermating, male and female where bought as pups from us by Lique.
Pups (mum and dad of your pup) where already out of a father-daughter mating ( our Wibo and Dushi).

So i'm not sure how experienced if you are, but the chanche the pup has a lot of fight in him are very great.

Dick


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## Eric Shearer (Oct 30, 2008)

REAL Obedience works 99.999% of the time. Redirecting his over drive to more drive is ridiculous in my opinion. you are putting a band aid on a gaping wound that needs stitches...lol and the redirect will manifest it's self into worse behavior in the future when he doesn't have that tug or ??? and he gets reved up. Plus you are not fixing the problem. Sit, Down, Stay, Put him up on an unstable object or bench or??? if you can to get his mind thinking in another direction and do OB... 
OB, OB, OB... is the key!!! JMHO
E


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> [email protected] if you have Dushi x Wibo in your bloodline, you should have the dog from Mike S or Lque (from Canada).
> If so, this is an accidental litter result out of brother-sistermating, male and female where bought as pups from us by Lique.
> Pups (mum and dad of your pup) where already out of a father-daughter mating ( our Wibo and Dushi).
> 
> ...


Do you have a website to see these dogs from Canada, or BRN numbers, just asking out of pure curiosity.


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## jeff gamber (Feb 15, 2010)

Dick:

He is out of Canada. He is an awesome dog and great drives obviuosly. I'm not training him any discipline. He will be just be my personal dog. This is the only issue I am having with him. Thank you for your response.

Thank you


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Eric Shearer said:


> REAL Obedience works 99.999% of the time. Redirecting his over drive to more drive is ridiculous in my opinion. you are putting a band aid on a gaping wound that needs stitches...lol and the redirect will manifest it's self into worse behavior in the future when he doesn't have that tug or ??? and he gets reved up. Plus you are not fixing the problem. Sit, Down, Stay, Put him up on an unstable object or bench or??? if you can to get his mind thinking in another direction and do OB...
> OB, OB, OB... is the key!!! JMHO
> E


OB,OB,OB is the key once and only once the foundation work has been laid down and secured in your dog. Don't take this the wrong way please but OB is key, but alot easier to bring a dog back down then try to rehab the drive JMO. Remember this dog is only 4 months old and not a adult.;-)


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Harry Keely said:


> Do you have a website to see these dogs from Canada, or BRN numbers, just asking out of pure curiosity.


[email protected] the male brn 16681 and the female brn 16682.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Is this pup also on a flat collar and pulling like a mofo on your street walks? I found that at that age my recent pup would load up by the act of pulling hard and was a lot more likely to get "locked in" to things like passing cars and such, especially if they where really close.

I did a lot of desensitization and positive ob around cars and such as has been suggested to break the attention on cars being interesting. It was very helpful.

When I moved to walking her on a prong when she was a little older, it also seemed to help her not load up from the act of pulling. You have to be careful though, be cause if you have done NO ob, they will just load on the prong anyways.

Anyhoo, just what worked for me, I have no experience with DS or those lines though.


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## jeff gamber (Feb 15, 2010)

Thank you Dick for the post. I'll keep the site posted on his progress. 

He is an awesome dog and just living life as a pup


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> [email protected] the male brn 16681 and the female brn 16682.


Appreciate it, looks like its going to be a intense pup with a 2-2 and a 3-3 on Wibo\\/


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## jeff gamber (Feb 15, 2010)

He walks nicely, only pulls when curious of an object. I'm just doing light obedience: here, sit, all food motivated. IT's just a car issue.

I'm very aware that he will grow to be an intense dog. I'm trying to implement a little bit of nurture vs. nature as I'm well aware his intensity and fight drive is and will be there, plus he lives in the house with me.

Thanks for the BRN numbers Dick and thanks to all the posts thus far


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

yup correct Harry.

Pics of the dushi x Wibo litter are on the board some where, it was the litter with the blue DS in it. Quatro ( the male, father of Jeff's pup) is a blue DS.

Tip from Flip: high stim on e-collar or (sharpened) pinch collar will create fighting......when older a thin check chain will do the trick, and (very) low stim on the e-collar. All are very driven for food, so that's a good way to go.

oh and Jeff? Pics are highly apreciated.

Selena


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## jeff gamber (Feb 15, 2010)

Here you go Selena, here are some pics from today and no more than a week ago.


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## jeff gamber (Feb 15, 2010)

Selena and Dick:

Thank you for your advice and help. I'm super excited about this dog. 

I'll keeo you posted with video and updated pics as time and training continue...


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> If so, this is an accidental litter result out of brother-sistermating, male and female where bought as pups from us by Lique.
> Pups (mum and dad of your pup) where already out of a father-daughter mating ( our Wibo and Dushi).


Jeff, did you realise the pup had this much inbreeding when you got it ??


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## jeff gamber (Feb 15, 2010)

I did. Im just excited to see how he develops

Minus the "car" issue lol


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> yup correct Harry.
> 
> Pics of the dushi x Wibo litter are on the board some where, it was the litter with the blue DS in it. Quatro ( the male, father of Jeff's pup) is a blue DS.
> 
> ...


Yea I think I might of seen them but am going to do some searching just to make sure I have thanks.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Jeff, did you realise the pup had this much inbreeding when you got it ??





jeff gamber said:


> I did. Im just excited to see how he develops
> 
> Minus the "car" issue lol


 
Backing up abit...



jeff gamber said:


> The extent I have on his pedigree is Wibo and Dushi van Leeuwan on one of the grandparents side.


So, the truth is that now you've been told it's a dragon..you're excited right ?? before you said your only option was clobbering it when you agreed with Mike schiebers advice.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Jeff, did you realise the pup had this much inbreeding when you got it ??


I think it should make for interesting future outlook and I myself am curious to see just how these pups as well as some other 2-2 breedings that have been done here in the USA as well as cross seas over the last year or so turn out.


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

And for the "clubbering-types"; no wonder you, "over the pond" can't keep/work a good working dog/pup and destroy everything.

Jeez Selena, us dumb Americans can only keep trying to learn........There's not a good dog in all of the states.

To the OP. I'd take Jacks advice


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## jeff gamber (Feb 15, 2010)

Gerry

I thought I clarified the cloberring advice by stating I do not practice or believe in that. I simply was just asking what to do when redirection or a nodoesnt work.

I am going to try some food motivation though when I see him key in on a car


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## jeff gamber (Feb 15, 2010)

Also, I have always been very excited about this dog. Nothing will change that as im going to keep him as my personal dog. Its just an added bonus that certain dog people have an interest in his development


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## jeff gamber (Feb 15, 2010)

As far as agreeing with mike scheiber I was agreeing as my option of exerting dominance (aka pack leader).


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

jeff gamber said:


> Also, I have always been very excited about this dog. Nothing will change that as im going to keep him as my personal dog. Its just an added bonus that certain dog people have an interest in his development


I honestly wish you all the best with your pup. I've decided it's best to listen to all the advice you get..in person and from wherever, then think about it for a yr or two before deciding to implement it or turf it.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

jeff gamber said:


> As far as agreeing with mike scheiber I was agreeing as my option of exerting dominance (aka pack leader).


Don't go all Ceasar on us now focker :razz:


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## jeff gamber (Feb 15, 2010)

All hail

I wont lol


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> If some needed correction is going to shy a dog up then the dog isn't worth much to anyone.


I agree 100%

Jeff could also correct and redirect the dog at the same time.


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## Maureen A Osborn (Feb 12, 2010)

I am going to add my 2 cents in for what they are worth....for me, with my dogos, if they are going after prey, but not the correct ones, but havenot yet been shown WHat the desired prey for them to go after is, I am not going to correct them for whatever is triiggering their prey drive, I would redirect it to something more desirable, ie a toy or piece of boarhide if available, but I would no way try to extinguish that drive, cause obviously, thats what I want. Once a dogo knows that it is supposed to be hunting boar and is scenting and catching hogs, THEN it is time to trash break them to things like livestock and whatnot.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I honestly wish you all the best with your pup. I've decided it's best to listen to all the advice you get..in person and from wherever, then think about it for a yr or two before deciding to implement it or turf it.


Your dead on there Gerry. Two years is a great time to start correctiong the problems that shpould have been corrected as a poup. Then the responses will be "You should have corrected this behavior as a pup and it is a bit late at 2 years old." Now what you hear is, "My god, the pup is only 4 mo old.....just redirect it, don't fix the problem."
And I have seen both answers right here on this board.


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## Maureen A Osborn (Feb 12, 2010)

I forgot to add though, for what you are dealing with, what I wouldbe doing first is OB, OB, and more OB....I am reading a book, "Training in Drive, Schutzhund Obedience" and that might work very well for your pup. I would also try to "desensitize him" to the cars like others have said, starting from farther away and then slowly getting closer. Getting him to focus on you instead of the cars would be another thing also.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Your dead on there Gerry. Two years is a great time to start correctiong the problems that shpould have been corrected as a poup. Then the responses will be "You should have corrected this behavior as a pup and it is a bit late at 2 years old." Now what you hear is, "My god, the pup is only 4 mo old.....just redirect it, don't fix the problem."
> And I have seen both answers right here on this board.


Holy crap Don, I was speaking in general terms in the big picture :lol: I have to run though..ate too much for supper and have to take a poup


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Its a useless behavior and sounds like a good one to impose pack leader ship, clobber him and say no sound easy enough?


Good god I did not mean a beat down or have a fight with a puppy:lol:



Don Turnipseed said:


> I know the pup is only 4 mo old. What better time is there to teach him that biting the boss is not a good thing to do. I sure wouldn't wait till he is older. A sensible person is not going to hurt the pup but he can be made darn uncomfortable for taking a swipe at the hand that feeds him. I know much of this redirection that is so popular today is done to keep from shying a dog up . If some needed correction is going to shy a dog up then the dog isn't worth much to anyone. I posted an incident with BlackJack some time back where he took a swipe at me and grabbed my hand. He was a bit older but I whacked him pretty darn good because he was older than 4 mo. I grabbed him by the collar and did the same thing that pissed him off and he turned and showed me a mouthfull of teeth and I pasted him again. Then I repeated the scenario and he did nothing. I am his best buddy and the dog will never try that manuever again. Took all of 1 minute and he is corrected for life. Biting the owner for any reason should be stopped as young as possible. Pups are impressionable and easy to work with. I don't buy redirection for bad behavior that can be cleaned up in a few minutes. You watch pups with their parents and when that pup starts chewing on them they give a warning growl. If it goes unheeded they grab that pup and roll him in the dirt and make him cry. Are they really huirting them? No. The horrendous noise the parents make while disciplining the pups scares the crap out of them. That is how pups learn what is, and isn't, acceptable. A lot of problems people have with adult dogs could have easily been stopped forever as pups......but they chose redirection instead of correction.


Re read this post of Don's and move on or this thread will be in the top 10 stupid threads in another page of this shit


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Al Curbow said:


> And for the "clubbering-types"; no wonder you, "over the pond" can't keep/work a good working dog/pup and destroy everything.
> 
> Jeez Selena, us dumb Americans can only keep trying to learn........There's not a good dog in all of the states.


</p> 
read the name under that comment....Sure there are good dogs, but with all the importing and breeding with the imports, y'all shouldn't need to import (as much) as you (americans in broad sense) do now. So why still import and wanting a PH1 dog for 10 G, the genetics are over the pond, but I still hear a lot that dogs like that can't be found (enough) in the US. So where will it go wrong: e.g. with "clobbering" and ruin a good (genetic wise) pup or learn it to fight and have it PTS. That was above comment from Dick all about...


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

What in the name of **** are people thinking when they get a dog ? Sadly you asked for a dog, and had at least SOME idea of what he was going to be.

Your personal dog ? Oh for ****s sake, get off your lazy ass and train the dog. I never understood why people that do not know how to train or even raise a dog go out and get a possible firebreather. 

Playing is what you are doing. You have no plan whatsoever.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Becuas its a pup I wuld try with water.
If you miss to take control of him befor he hypes up, Havea sport bottle with water on you. When he amps up sqirt him in the face. Hold the leas so he cant get away from it, At teh same time give him th No comand. Directly after taht, when he will go down in drive give him a comand to get to your side and reward him.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> </p>
> read the name under that comment....Sure there are good dogs, but with all the importing and breeding with the imports, y'all shouldn't need to import (as much) as you (americans in broad sense) do now. So why still import and wanting a PH1 dog for 10 G, the genetics are over the pond, but I still hear a lot that dogs like that can't be found (enough) in the US. So where will it go wrong: e.g. with "clobbering" and ruin a good (genetic wise) pup or learn it to fight and have it PTS. That was above comment from Dick all about...


Me personally like you said pay 10G for a PH1 dog, thats the problem with USA people they are buying them for 3 - 4.5K euro and turning around with not much work involved with them and some places are selling them anywhere from 10-15k USD. Same with pups selling them for ridiculous prices when once again buy a pup from 300- 400 euro sometimes a little bit more. I won't buy a dog no longer, nor a pup here in the USA unless its something I really like and am looking for certain gentics. Of course you have shipping charges but still your not paying in the five figure range and you get to choose your dog instead of somebody else picking dogs to sell you.

Yes there is good pups and dogs here in the USA but alot of people just breed and don't know much about the breed or gentics to even be breeding in the first place and just talk alot of shit but honestly down have a ****ing clue. So at least thats the reason I choose to deal with the originating country. 

Like Jeff said alot of people get pups and don't know how to raise, imprint and finish out a pup from start to finish. Other parts very few and far in between agencies want to waist the time or take the chance with a puppy.

Unforturnately yes the gentics are here and are getting more populated by the day here but most are breeding and owning for all the wrrong reasons with the exception of the few ( Mike Suttle, Tony Guzman and a few select others that seem to have their act together on the large scale ). Along with a few small time guys or some two or three dog owners that also have their act together.

One thing I notice though is that everybody is pulling from the same few select dogs and kennels and I wish there would be more open mindness to offer more of a selection for workability, genetics and possibly even more excellent breedings done by the people that should be breeding. Because we all know that theres alot more to offer in Holland with good dogs that we are seeing and breeding here. JMO


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Harry, I am beginning to think breeding good dogs is pointless. If this thread is an example of how to trainers think pup should be correctly handled these days.....producing good dogs means absolutely nothing because there is no one qualified to buy them. Pups may well be better off with first time dog owners that know they don't have a clue.


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## Maureen A Osborn (Feb 12, 2010)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> What in the name of **** are people thinking when they get a dog ? Sadly you asked for a dog, and had at least SOME idea of what he was going to be.
> 
> Your personal dog ? Oh for ****s sake, get off your lazy ass and train the dog. I never understood why people that do not know how to train or even raise a dog go out and get a possible firebreather.
> 
> Playing is what you are doing. You have no plan whatsoever.


OR (in my breed) the breeders try to say they are big cuddley white lap dogs(and put all sorts of cutesy pics on their website), and then wonder why their now mature dogo wants to dominant them or try to kill their neighbor's cat/dog, etc.


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

Debbie High said:


> Jeff, there is a short Micheal Ellis video on the Leerburg.com website regarding "capping drives". It might be helpful for you to watch it. Learning self-control doesn't happen overnight....they need a good handler to mature into nice workable adults.
> 
> Best regards,
> Debbie



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWkNPrXkvRA


awesome video, thanks


this is one of the things I have been dealing with, and have been trying a bit of tug, change directions when walking, etc

The Ellis vids are great stuff


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Harry, I am beginning to think breeding good dogs is pointless. If this thread is an example of how to trainers think pup should be correctly handled these days.....producing good dogs means absolutely nothing because there is no one qualified to buy them. Pups may well be better off with first time dog owners that know they don't have a clue.


Don what gives you that interpretation from what I wrote above? Maybe that fact that I said alot, alot doesn't mean all. Theres alot of good folks with good dogs from these lines and kennels. I was more or less just making a blanket statement that covers all good and bad spectrums to why we buy dogs from cross seas.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Harry Keely said:


> Don what gives you that interpretation from what I wrote above? Maybe that fact that I said alot, alot doesn't mean all. Theres alot of good folks with good dogs from these lines and kennels. I was more or less just making a blanket statement that covers all good and bad spectrums to why we buy dogs from cross seas.


Much of the gist of the post has to do with going to the country of origin, good genetics, good dogs Harry. Seleena said that we ruin the dogs on this side of the pond as we can't develope and maintain the good genetics. That is exactly why we have to keep going back for more stock. After reading the total BS in this thread, I am not so sure it has to do with breeding good dogs. I think maybe there are some pretty good dogs but the owners/trainers are clueless and many good dogs may be getting ruined because of that. Doesn't matter wher the dogs come from judging from the advice I see being given in this thread..........the dogs don't have a chance.
I was reduced to hysterical laughter at the comment about putting young pups into defense or aggression by using stern correction. If a real trainer can't correct a pup without doing that, they wouldn't be training any of my dogs. As the marker training advocates say, timing is everything. Pups are going to do what you let them get buy with....no more than that.

In short Harry, your post had the stuff to go into my post but, the main reason for the post is the utterly BS advice given by "trainers" in this thread. If Jeff's dog was two years old, the same people would be telling Jeff he should have taken charge and stopped this when the dog was 4 mo old.


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## Maureen A Osborn (Feb 12, 2010)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Much of the gist of the post has to do with going to the country of origin, good genetics, good dogs Harry. Seleena said that we ruin the dogs on this side of the pond as we can't develope and maintain the good genetics. That is exactly why we have to keep going back for more stock. After reading the total BS in this thread, I am not so sure it has to do with breeding good dogs. I think maybe there are some pretty good dogs but the owners/trainers are clueless and many good dogs may be getting ruined because of that. Doesn't matter wher the dogs come from judging from the advice I see being given in this thread..........the dogs don't have a chance.
> I was reduced to hysterical laughter at the comment about putting young pups into defense or aggression by using stern correction. If a real trainer can't correct a pup without doing that, they wouldn't be training any of my dogs. As the marker training advocates say, timing is everything. Pups are going to do what you let them get buy with....no more than that.
> 
> In short Harry, your post had the stuff to go into my post but, the main reason for the post is the utterly BS advice given by "trainers" in this thread. If Jeff's dog was two years old, the same people would be telling Jeff he should have taken charge and stopped this when the dog was 4 mo old.


 
Don, I think though some people's wording of "kicking its ass" means different things to different people with different breeds......to most dogo people I know(hunters mainly) kicking a dogo's ass would pretty much be along the lines of knocking the dogo upside its head with something like a maglight for aggressing at something that it shouldn't. A small, light pop on the leash and a firm "no" is prolly quite adequate for a 4 month old puppy of any breed, no knocking it upside it's head.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Maureen A Osborn said:


> Don, I think though some people's wording of "_*kicking its ass" means different things to different people*_ with different breeds......to most dogo people I know(hunters mainly) kicking a dogo's ass would pretty much be along the lines of knocking the dogo upside its head with something like a maglight for aggressing at something that it shouldn't. A small, light pop on the leash and a firm "no" is prolly quite adequate for a 4 month old puppy of any breed, no knocking it upside it's head.


 
Just like the other thread discussing "social".

So many terms that are interpreted differently throughout the world/industry.


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Maureen A Osborn said:


> Don, I think though some people's wording of "kicking its ass" means different things to different people with different breeds......to most dogo people I know(hunters mainly) kicking a dogo's ass would pretty much be along the lines of knocking the dogo upside its head with something like a maglight for aggressing at something that it shouldn't. A small, light pop on the leash and a firm "no" is prolly quite adequate for a 4 month old puppy of any breed, no knocking it upside it's head.


My point exactly. When I think of "kicking it's ass" that means we're having a Come to Jesus moment for a major screw up. If I say my dog got it's ass kicked, that's exactly what I mean - we had a moment to see the light. I don't do this with pups, but my adult dogs will see the wrath if they do something and they damned well know better.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Bunch of violent gits!!!


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Maureen A Osborn said:


> Don, I think though some people's wording of "kicking its ass" means different things to different people with different breeds......to most dogo people I know(hunters mainly) kicking a dogo's ass would pretty much be along the lines of knocking the dogo upside its head with something like a maglight for aggressing at something that it shouldn't. A small, light pop on the leash and a firm "no" is prolly quite adequate for a 4 month old puppy of any breed, no knocking it upside it's head.


Maureen, no matter the terminilogy used, most will interpret it much different than what was actually meant. I am not going to hit a dog with a mag lite and ruin a good light. If I am going to hit them I use my hand because I know the force then. I haven't owned a shock collar in years and do fine without it. I am not sure how effective a light pop on the leash with a correction would be with many pups. I doubt it will work on the 4 mo old being discussed. It is hard to say not having been around this particular dog, but, I would have let it grab the leash, it could grab his own leg if he wanted. The first, I repeat, the first time he grabbed mine he would have been snatch up off the ground so fast and held at eye level to me with me screaming at him. It is something the dog is toltally not used to and it is the sheer startle factor he won't want to repeat. One or two times and the dog will be grabbing everything but my leg. Pups parents and superiors do it the same way and the pups get over it very quickly.....but they remember it and most importantly....exacly what they did when it happened. Having them off the ground replaces the helpless effect they have when the parents jaws are wrapped around them...because I am not holding a pup in my mouth. I liken this to be getting a boot in the azz.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Much of the gist of the post has to do with going to the country of origin, good genetics, good dogs Harry. Seleena said that we ruin the dogs on this side of the pond as we can't develope and maintain the good genetics. That is exactly why we have to keep going back for more stock. After reading the total BS in this thread, I am not so sure it has to do with breeding good dogs. I think maybe there are some pretty good dogs but the owners/trainers are clueless and many good dogs may be getting ruined because of that. Doesn't matter wher the dogs come from judging from the advice I see being given in this thread..........the dogs don't have a chance.
> I was reduced to hysterical laughter at the comment about putting young pups into defense or aggression by using stern correction. If a real trainer can't correct a pup without doing that, they wouldn't be training any of my dogs. As the marker training advocates say, timing is everything. Pups are going to do what you let them get buy with....no more than that.
> 
> In short Harry, your post had the stuff to go into my post but, the main reason for the post is the utterly BS advice given by "trainers" in this thread. If Jeff's dog was two years old, the same people would be telling Jeff he should have taken charge and stopped this when the dog was 4 mo old.


Gotcha Don, it comes down to in all reality the dog and the person owning the dog, I think you either work through it and become one or you move on to a new dog or the dog finds a new handler. Every situation is different just like every dog / handler is as well. Either theres unison or theres chaos ( Chief has arrived on scene ), sorry no its got nothing to do with this but had to add it just got told this the other day. It does apply though because either theres supervision / boss or theres a melt down some where. As far as getting and keeping good dogs thats a must in my eyes and if it takes importing or buying from a select group in the USA then thats what needs to continue. For along time now theres been shit here do to overbreeding and clueless ****s but we need the knowledagble to continue to provide to people that want and need and know how to handle anyways JMO.

Also do we blame the handlers or the dogs or do we blame the back yarders who are trying to make a quick buck and thats all they know is the color green or whatever color there money might be. Of course theres no way of bomb proofing this but how many people actually take the time to make a little conversation and ask some questions or intentions for these dogs, not to many I have called to inquire alot about dogs over the years because they don't give a shit and just want the dollar. But I guess thats a whole other ball game and thread in itself.

Maybe we should start a thread on pre inquiries on people wanting these dogs. It would be interesting to see what some people might ask and not ask ya know. Once again JMO.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Hell I wont even send a piece of metal out without talking to the buyer in person to make sure that I can or do what they want and they know exactly what they are getting and I build exactly what there wanting in person otherwise I don't build it period. I don't give a shit I rather loose it then somebody come back and say thats not what I was expecting.


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Same question here.....
> 
> And for the "clubbering-types"; no wonder you, "over the pond" can't keep/work a good working dog/pup and destroy everything.:???:
> How stupid to clubber a 4 months old pup. In this bloodline it means you destroy it *or you are "teaching" it to fight you. Either way you won't be able to work it. So, go clubber it, so the pup can end his live at the table of a vet.*:evil:
> ...


wow... couldnt agree more.... esp w/ the bold.....
t


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

I dont know.... Im not quite convinced redirecting or stimulating further is the fix.... ok for some dogs and not so much for others.... saying no no no no over and over and the dog doesnt stop... eh not good imo either..... corrections can also lead to more stim...

why not, since its a puppy, why not work on "calming", calm strokes, calm words, calm handler and then reward for the calm but without over stimulating him again. Can you go sit/ lay somewhere with the dog at a reasonable distance and just work on "calm" before you venture forward and bring motion/ movement/ more stimulation into the equation?

just a thought since everything else has been mentioned and tried...

t
ps Im also in Tampa :-D


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

I had a similar, although not exactly the same issue, with my male Dutchie and cars. It was around the 4 month old pup stage. I don't know where you live but I found the busiest corner in my town and headed there at rush hour. 

There were 3 lanes of traffic in every direction. In other words there was plenty of action. I just stood there like a statue on the corner. There was so much going on the dog didn't have a clue what car to focus on.

When he started to act weird I never looked at him or showed any emotion but I lifted his front paws off the ground with a dominant dog collar until he calmed down.

It took 4 days about 20 minutes a session. End of problem!!


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

andreas broqvist said:


> Becuas its a pup I wuld try with water.
> If you miss to take control of him befor he hypes up, Havea sport bottle with water on you. When he amps up sqirt him in the face. Hold the leas so he cant get away from it, At teh same time give him th No comand. Directly after taht, when he will go down in drive give him a comand to get to your side and reward him.




I had thought you didnt want to do water, can of pennies, etc on a working dog because you are teaching him to fear something....?


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Maureen, no matter the terminilogy used, most will interpret it much different than what was actually meant. I am not going to hit a dog with a mag lite and ruin a good light. If I am going to hit them I use my hand because I know the force then. I haven't owned a shock collar in years and do fine without it. I am not sure how effective a light pop on the leash with a correction would be with many pups. I doubt it will work on the 4 mo old being discussed. It is hard to say not having been around this particular dog, but, I would have let it grab the leash, it could grab his own leg if he wanted. The first, I repeat, the first time he grabbed mine he would have been snatch up off the ground so fast and held at eye level to me with me screaming at him. It is something the dog is toltally not used to and it is the sheer startle factor he won't want to repeat. One or two times and the dog will be grabbing everything but my leg. Pups parents and superiors do it the same way and the pups get over it very quickly.....but they remember it and most importantly....exacly what they did when it happened. Having them off the ground replaces the helpless effect they have when the parents jaws are wrapped around them...because I am not holding a pup in my mouth. I liken this to be getting a boot in the azz.


Don wile the pup is in the air slip one of them calming crystal up its ass and place it down slowly and gently wile humming a soft tune all will be good.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Don wile the pup is in the air slip one of them calming crystal up its ass and place it down slowly and gently wile humming a soft tune all will be good.


Aquamarine crystal you bonehead :lol:


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Aquamarine crystal you bonehead :lol:


Shit then you give him one of yours


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Shit then you give him one of yours


I'm all out, my dogs ass is full.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Kinda like Scheiber last weekend. 

Too easy. Just too easy.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

jeff gamber said:


> Wondering if I can get some suggestions on breaking a bad habit of my 4 month old dutch shepherd pup:
> 
> Super confident pup, but I live in a nicely populated area of Tampa and his prey drive overloads him when he sees anything moving, predominately cars. He will load up and lash out with aggression and need to bite anything, usually his leash, me, etc... I try to redirect him with keys or his tug, but sometimes that doesn't work. This particular habit makes it difficult for me to maximize his exposure.
> 
> Any suggestions would help...


Have you tried smearing peanut butter on your zipper?


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## Maureen A Osborn (Feb 12, 2010)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Aquamarine crystal you bonehead :lol:


No, you need Lavender Oil to calm him, maybe massage him with it before taking him for a walk #-o


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Kinda like Scheiber last weekend.
> 
> Too easy. Just too easy.


Ha Ha


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## Eric Shearer (Oct 30, 2008)

Harry Keely said:


> OB,OB,OB is the key once and only once the foundation work has been laid down and secured in your dog. Don't take this the wrong way please but OB is key, but alot easier to bring a dog back down then try to rehab the drive JMO. Remember this dog is only 4 months old and not a adult.;-)


I hear what you are saying... But I don't agree. 100%
The problem that I have with most people is that they are afraid that they will "knock down DRIVE".
Keep in mind that you are on a walk in a public area... and not on a trial or training field. 
you can cap the "drive" with OB and release it back to a tug or praise once the distraction is past. Proper OB is not going to knock down drive but unfortunately that is what has been ingrained into today's sport training. I use to think the same way until I experienced it for myself... but the only thing you get if OB is done right is a well mannered dog with control who is looking for the opportunity to unload that "drive" when allowed (released) I do train more " in drive" on the field or when I am working on my sport but off the field it is manners and real obedience. I have found that when we get on the field my dogs are more up and enjoy the release and all of the OB that I do off the field keeps my dogs clean and clear.
Of coarse this is JMHO and I respect others experiences or lack there of. 
What ever work's for you works for me... 
Eric


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Eric Shearer said:


> I hear what you are saying... But I don't agree. 100%
> The problem that I have with most people is that they are afraid that they will "knock down DRIVE".
> Keep in mind that you are on a walk in a public area... and not on a trial or training field.
> you can cap the "drive" with OB and release it back to a tug or praise once the distraction is past. Proper OB is not going to knock down drive but unfortunately that is what has been ingrained into today's sport training. I use to think the same way until I experienced it for myself... but the only thing you get if OB is done right is a well mannered dog with control who is looking for the opportunity to unload that "drive" when allowed (released) I do train more " in drive" on the field or when I am working on my sport but off the field it is manners and real obedience. I have found that when we get on the field my dogs are more up and enjoy the release and all of the OB that I do off the field keeps my dogs clean and clear.
> ...


Like you said Eric JMO and I respect others experiences or lack there of. 
What ever work's for you works for me its all preference and in the eye of the beholder of the dog.


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