# Working Rottweiler puppy



## Hillary Hamilton (Jan 6, 2009)

Ok, I will be getting a working prospect puppy at the end of Jan. or might wait until June. What do I need to get and how do I need to raise him? I already have a crate, food, bowls, collars, leashes, a kennel run, and a doghouse. I plan on taking him to the vet for a check and getting his shots when I get him. What kind of training do I need to start him on? I was planning on starting some tracking and a little bit of obedience. Where do I need to keep him? In the house until a certain age? Or put him in the kennel promptly? Do I socialize him to everyone or only let certain people touch him? How do the family members in the household need to interact around him? Do I need to be the only one who feeds, trains, and plays with? How do I start getting him use to noises? I will be asking my club trainer tonight but just curious!! Thanks for all your help!


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Hillary Hamilton said:


> Ok, I will be getting a working prospect puppy at the end of Jan. or might wait until June. What do I need to get and how do I need to raise him? I already have a crate, food, bowls, collars, leashes, a kennel run, and a doghouse. I plan on taking him to the vet for a check and getting his shots when I get him. What kind of training do I need to start him on? I was planning on starting some tracking and a little bit of obedience. Where do I need to keep him? In the house until a certain age? Or put him in the kennel promptly? Do I socialize him to everyone or only let certain people touch him? How do the family members in the household need to interact around him? Do I need to be the only one who feeds, trains, and plays with? How do I start getting him use to noises? I will be asking my club trainer tonight but just curious!! Thanks for all your help!


what are you plans for the pup?

Don't get ahead of yourself and chain him to a tree in the back yard or start feeding him gun powder and burning the pads of his feet just yet....=; 

Is the dog from working lines?

I like to keep my pup in a crate in the bed room. My older dogs have free roam of the house and sleep in the bedroom usually at the foot or the bed or on my side of the bed. 

It's a puppy so treat it like a puppy. Play play play play play. From 8-12wks socialize him to everything and everyone, especially little kids. Bring him everywhere you can. Spend as much time as you can with the pup. 

Listen to your TD and in about six months (or few weeks depending on your TD) you can have some guy tie your dog to a pole and tease him with burlap sack until he barks. In the mean time play tug and lots of fetch with him.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Woah! I admire your enthusiasm. :lol:

But these are the questions you need to be CONFIDENT in the answers to before you get the pup. Wait until June. And hang out here to learn!

Define "working prospect." There are so many working tasks a dog can do and training is often contraindicative. SAR? Schutzhund? PPD? Scent Detection? Trailing? Tracking? French Ring? Mondio Ring? Hunting? Service Dog? Therapy Dog? PSA?

Your first task is to define is quantitative terms WHAT your goals are for this dog. List the exact behavior you expect it to perform as a mature dog. (If training for sport or certification, the requirements will help a lot, but don't forget to list your house manners expectations as well).

AFTER that, you can start working on looking for the right dog.

1. Goals
2. Start looking for a trustworthy breeder, broker or rescue. Start looking at bloodlines and specific upcoming litters.
3. Have a person experienced in puppy selection for you particular sport or training goals go with to select a puppy.
4. Be patient! It's easier to wait to find the right dog FOR YOU, than to struggle with trying to train a dog that is unfit for the work or that is not a good fit for you.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Annie is right even if I don't understand her most of the time. BTW- I was totally joking about the gun powder thing... don't do that. Yeah, and don't chain him up in the yard or burn his feet either. You're not going to be raising a "mean" dog you want happy and balanced like Anne Vaini. LOL

If you're serious about getting a working dog, then it's best to start with a pup from somebody in your club. It's a good idea for a couple of reasons, the breeder will have a vested interest in you and the pup and you will know it's from stock that can actually work.

I noticed in your other thread that you're still in HS. Are you going to college? What happens to the dog if you go to school? 

Rotties are not the best working/sport dog for a beginner. I think they are great dogs, perfect companions and if you get a good one they are a heck of a lot of fun but they are easy to screw up. You'd be better off getting a German Shepherd, easy to train and fairly forgiving of your mistakes.

Its a good thing for you to ask any and all questions of us and especially the trainer at your dog club.


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## Hillary Hamilton (Jan 6, 2009)

I am interested for this dog to be a Schutzhund dog. I am in love with this sport. I already have a rottie who I trained myself (in the house most the time) but he is just too handler dependent to be a good SchH dog. I am working with him on tracking and obedience as he loves both!! I have picked out a breeder and he has really nice dogs!! I have a trainer who does GSDs which I really am not fond of (they are SUPER SMART just not for me). The puppy (of both litters) has SchH titled parents, grand-parents, and all the way back in the bloodline. oh, and lol at the gunpowder comment! Thanks for your opinions!!!


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

If you're training for Schutzhund, I suggest getting a copy of the rulebooks now and pratice. Train yourself to NOT use double-commands. To command the beginning of movement in heeling (versus Ring where you would command the stay). Learn about clicker / marker training and PRACTICE it. Get a cat, a rat, a sibling... Just don't learn on your dog!

And start saving money for equipment and training fees! :yikes:

It sounds like you have a good start. You definitely know more about it than I did at your age!

Can I suggest the book "Training the Behavior" by Gary Patterson. Good stuff! Lots of tracking too.

Also "Purely Positive" by Sheila Booth. Nice to see some positive training stuff by a Schutzhund competitor!


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

Ahhhh, just get the puppy, no need to wait if you don't want too, it's just a puppy. Housebreaking and bonding, that's all, super fun and easy! 

You already have a dog right? What do you mean by "too handler dependant" to do Sch ?


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## Hillary Hamilton (Jan 6, 2009)

He never really got any independence. I had him with me pretty much all the time and he never knew how to act without me. So, some of it was his temperament and some of it was me babying him. He's also neutured, don't know if this has anything to do with it. Yes, me and my mom have rescued over 100 dogs and found homes for them all (I trained all of them) but I'm still pretty new to SchH. Again, thanks for advice!!!


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Hillary Hamilton said:


> He never really got any independence. I had him with me pretty much all the time and he never knew how to act without me. So, some of it was his temperament and some of it was me babying him. He's also neutured, don't know if this has anything to do with it. Yes, me and my mom have rescued over 100 dogs and found homes for them all (I trained all of them) but I'm still pretty new to SchH. Again, thanks for advice!!!


Sounds like he has weak nerve...

I don't think having the dog around you all the time has anything to do with it. I work from home and my dogs are with me 24/7. I think it's a good thing to always have your dog with you. I bring my two working dogs with me where ever I can.


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## Sara Findley (Feb 27, 2008)

Hillary Hamilton said:


> He never really got any independence. I had him with me pretty much all the time and he never knew how to act without me. So, some of it was his temperament and some of it was me babying him. He's also neutured, don't know if this has anything to do with it. Yes, me and my mom have rescued over 100 dogs and found homes for them all (I trained all of them) but I'm still pretty new to SchH. Again, thanks for advice!!!


 Ah ha we meet again, from prodog forum. \\/


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Al Curbow said:


> Ahhhh, just get the puppy, no need to wait if you don't want too, it's just a puppy. Housebreaking and bonding, that's all, super fun and easy! QUOTE]
> 
> I disagree. I think puppies, particularly between 8 and 12 weeks is the hardest age. The rate of learning is faster at this age than at any point in the dog's life. I imprint everything - carefully!
> 
> ...


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Anne Vaini said:


> Al Curbow said:
> 
> 
> > Ahhhh, just get the puppy, no need to wait if you don't want too, it's just a puppy. Housebreaking and bonding, that's all, super fun and easy! QUOTE]
> ...


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

Anne, that's fine. We disagree on rearing puppies, that's all.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Chris Michalek said:


> So isn't it best for a novice to do nothing but socialize and bond with a pup? If you don't know how to train properly then I don't think its a good idea during that window.


Best for novice.... :lol: get some POS dogs and practice training. I know people disagree on this, but if you *must* get a puppy, and you won't do your homework, then send it to someone else for training for the foundations. Now one point of view is that this is stressful for the dog and interferes with bonding. (Assuming the dog isn't nervy) I think it's a good option. It is clearly documented that the bond between dog and handler is a function of the dog's behavior. (Applied Handbook of Dog Behavior and Training, Volume 3). Good training foundations are essential. It would be super-cool if everyone put in the time to learn to raise a puppy in a sport or discipline, but it's not a perfect world. If I can put foundation training on a puppy, TEACH THE OWNER to continue and develop the training, it's a win-win. Puppy goes home with good house manners, basic obedience and foundation behaviors. The Owner has a foundation to work from, good information and is off to a very solid start. 

Lots of people here disagree. I don't get a chance to bond with a dog. I hear lots of comments about the "magical" bond and it's effect on training. I just don't see it. I can train a dog without bonding with it. Perhaps bonding would improve the training? I don't know. I have a studious/scheduled approach to training. 

1. Determine present situation.
2. Determine goals.
3. Evaluate various training processes/methods for fit.
4. Break down goals into behaviors.
5. Schedule training by year, month, week and day.

The average dog is here 2 - 4 months, whether it be a rescue dog or a board-and-train. Even "my" dogs are ones that I am training for future placement - Service Dog, Stunt Dog etc. Maybe if I had a chance to hang out with a puppy for 6 months or a year before beginning training I would like the result and change my thinking? Dunno. Someday I'll get a dog to keep. 


Back to OT:

It sounds like the OP has a good amount of experience with adult dogs, but needs more study into the requirements of the particulars/details of the sport and scoring.

Once she defines what the goals are, she can break it down into a schedule by year, month, week and day. That will answer her question!


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

I think there is something to having a bond. My dogs are trained and they are obedient with my wife but they aren't anywhere near as spirited when they work with me. Especially with my male rott, my wife will ask him to Fuss and he will without hesitation but when he does it with me it appears that he wants to do it more... there is just a extra thing between us and I believe it has to do with our bond.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I think here I'd be inclined to agree with Al. Get the pup, treat him like pups should be treated and during this time - observe" him and I mean "observe". You've had a dog before so you can see where his weaknesses and strengths lie. 

Some kids are registered for Yale or Harvard before they've left the womb:roll: :roll: :roll:


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I think here I'd be inclined to agree with Al. Get the pup, treat him like pups should be treated and during this time - observe" him and I mean "observe". You've had a dog before so you can see where his weaknesses and strengths lie.
> 
> Some kids are registered for Yale or Harvard before they've left the womb:roll: :roll: :roll:


Ahh! By observe, I mean "find and fix" those weaknesses. Maybe Jeff is right... too many POS dogs. :lol:

I didn't do diddly squat with a puppies until after I studied the development of puppies, experimented with a few litters and saw the results. I was on the Flinks plan before that - do nothing with a puppy except informal "come when called" and tug games.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Anne, I guess we're on the same page 
I do more than tug and recall - there's so much you can do with a pup that has nothing to do with its future role in whatever sport it (or you) is/are destined for.

I think Jeff made a good point when he said that you shouldn't be afraid to do something wrong with the pup. A lot of new handlers tend to do nothing rather than something wrong. Something done "wrong" but with conviction is in my mind better than nothing.

The journey can often be more interesting than the destination. And once you've figured out how the journey goes, the destination can be less interesting, so start off for something new, maybe.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

I'll revise my statement after a bit more thought - a novice could/should practice training cues unrelated to the behaviors needed for competition - taking care not to train beahviors that are contraindicative.

For instance, training foundations for agility or musical freestyle don't conflict with Schutzhund and it gives dog and handler a chance to learn to work together, with the added bonus of developing turns, heeling and hind end awareness in drive - for beautiful attention heeling in later training.


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## Mike charatin (Apr 9, 2008)

Anne, I am a little confused about your statement. When working a dog/puppy in anything you are creating a bond. How is it you feel you dont have a chance to create a bond when everytime you work him that is exactly what you are doing?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I'm a firm believer in early imprinting. When done correctly it is nothing more then playing and making a game out of behaviours. 
If the owner is inexpierienced at this then help from someone that is should be utilized.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Mike charatin said:


> Anne, I am a little confused about your statement. When working a dog/puppy in anything you are creating a bond. How is it you feel you dont have a chance to create a bond when everytime you work him that is exactly what you are doing?


I don't want to speak for Anne, but to me, working with a foster dog is like working with a classmate or coworker or even a roommate. We are cordial and we get along for the most part, maybe even live in the same place for a time. But just because we work together and are friendly doesn't necessarily make us friends. It's a working relationship.


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

> Rotties are not the best working/sport dog for a beginner. I think they are great dogs, perfect companions and if you get a good one they are a heck of a lot of fun but they are easy to screw up. You'd be better off getting a German Shepherd, easy to train and fairly forgiving of your mistakes


While I agree with you about Rotties NOT being first time dogs. I have a GSD that most NORMAL people can't handle...more like a Mal in temperament and drives etc. He doesn't forget things and is FAR from easy to train. Just because most are doesn't mean that ALL will be like that one dog you've expierienced. My GSD is a hard dog with attitude....definetely NOT a beginners dog. 

JMO 
Courtney


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Courtney Guthrie said:


> While I agree with you about Rotties NOT being first time dogs. I have a GSD that most NORMAL people can't handle...more like a Mal in temperament and drives etc. He doesn't forget things and is FAR from easy to train. Just because most are doesn't mean that ALL will be like that one dog you've expierienced. My GSD is a hard dog with attitude....definetely NOT a beginners dog.
> 
> JMO
> Courtney



I said nothing about handling, you can pound on a GSD and not screw them up. Rotties are awfully sensitive and you could overload them with too much OB if you don't know what you're doing. They generally don't take corrections well. I've seen guys give a kick to a head on a GSD and the dog works harder for them, do that to a rott and he won't work for you again.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Mike charatin said:


> Anne, I am a little confused about your statement. When working a dog/puppy in anything you are creating a bond. How is it you feel you dont have a chance to create a bond when everytime you work him that is exactly what you are doing?


I agree Mike, which is why I have a big issue with those that say to bond with a dog first before training. training is playing is bonding. However, with no interaction outside of training, it seems to take longer to bond. I've had a dog here from 6 weeks old for training. We trained 7-10 hours a week for almost 2 years. She's bonded to me because of all the interaction - but I'm not attached to her because I wil be placing her with someone else. I don't even think of her as "my" dog.

I have a HUGE issue with people (typically in the owner-trained-service-dog world) that believe that a dog will perform behaviors simply because of the bond, without training. I discovered this with a client that I had to "fire" with 3 "service dogs" that were nervy and couldn't be walked on a leash. She wouldn't follow instructions / wouldn't train them and kept yapping about how they "work because of the bond" (and I must add that there wasn't much bonding apparant). Never mind that this precludes the legal definition of a serice dog in the USA...

Maren explained it well. We're friendly, I'm affectionate during training. But there's no attachment. Like a co-worker that you enjoy his/her company, and work well together, but you know that eventually you'll be parting ways completely.

Pee, Poo, Train (eat/drink), Crate. Repeat. I don't hang out with a just-a-dog dog. We don't do to the park for fun, or play just because. There isn't loose time in the house, training of ridiculous behaviors for "enrichment." The dog doesn't get to hang out and go with me wherever I go, (usually) doesn't get to sleep in bed.

To be honest, I haven't noticed much of a difference for the dogs that I have bonded with. If anything, they perform more poorly because the dog has other ways to get rewarded, e.g.: lying on the bed is self-rewarding, why bother working to get affection when I'm getting it anyway? 

However, these dogs are more easily motivated by removal of affection, and they cue into my face. My last "my dog" didn't even need markers after a few years. she looked at my face. If I smiled, she continued, no expression or just waiting, she kept offereing behaviors. Stressed, disappointed, frustrated and she would shut down (removal of affection stresssed/upset this "emotional" little dog).

Go ahead and flame me all you want. I've gotten booted off a similar web forum for expressing this point-of-view.  I was told how a Mal absolutley cannot be trained without bonding with it first (because they can be handler-sensitive / affectionate). I have a little Mal-baby here (who is handler-sensitive, and VERY affectionate, eager-to-please and works for praise (!) ) and she's doing just fine. She'll have been here 2 weeks on Friday and is right on schedule for her training. ... No "pre-bonding" required.


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

Chris Michalek said:


> I said nothing about handling, you can pound on a GSD and not screw them up. Rotties are awfully sensitive and you could overload them with too much OB if you don't know what you're doing. They generally don't take corrections well. I've seen guys give a kick to a head on a GSD and the dog works harder for them, do that to a rott and he won't work for you again.



I don't think that the above is true for the GSD as a whole..maybe a few of them....BUT IME- the ones I've handled and worked.....you kick them and they shut down and won't work, Mine is sensitive and if I'm too harsh, his OB and everything is crap that day...better to put him up and leave him a few minutes. I grew up with Rotties and my parents still have one....you're spot on about tempermant in them, for the most part. BUT I feel that depending on your research and the lines used etc......you can et the same attitude from a GSD to a lesser degree. 

I hate people saying GSD's are great first time dogs.....they are for the most part.....but you need to do LOTS of research BEFORE you jump into them. Not all dogs are the same in one breed. 

Courtney

ETA- Anne- Can you make a post about your view on puppy raising or how you do it?? I'm really curious to learn more about it.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Courtney Guthrie said:


> ETA- Anne- Can you make a post about your view on puppy raising or how you do it?? I'm really curious to learn more about it.


Before picking a dog, I have a list of goals. I want the dog to do xxxx. If the dog cannot do xxxx, then I want to do yyyy. If the dog cannot do yyyy, then we'll do zzzz.

I have a list of cues and behaviors broken down. From this list I can shape almost anything. I pick which behaviors I need to teach in order to pursue all of the behaviors that would be required for xxxx, yyyy, and zzzz.

Then I compare rules and requirements. In general, I use the most strenuous/exact rules, or I sort out exactly how I intend to train a behavior by the way the behavior is weighted across several sports. Sometimes I blow off the rules entirely just because I like a certain look or behavior.

Now I have a list of behaviors, the cues and the definitions of the behaviors.

NOW I START TO LOOK FOR A PUPPY! :lol: 

I like to get a puppy at 6 weeks old (that's entirely a different topic). At this age I want to capture everything I can. I click almost every behavior. You have to be able to see potential in it. I'll click (and reward) for the pup coming to me. I'll click and reward for the pup investigating objects. I'll click and reward for the pup going in another room, turning around, stepping backwards, looking at me, picking up and object, tugging, running, self-stacking, alert posture, alert barking, sit, down, zen (settle). Just about anything.

I am constantly evaluating the puppy's natural behaviors against my goals. Which way does the puppy turn naturally? Which finish will be easier for the puppy? Heel right or left or both? It's easier to work with the puppy than against it. 

At about 12 weeks, the rate of learning slows. By this time, I've imprinted or captured every behavior I need. now I start to name and develop them.

By now, I have a pretty good idea of the pup's natural abilities and rate of learning. It's time to set a schedule and break down the long-term goals into weekly and daily lists.

I follow it up with a training journal. The more I keep records, the more accurate my estimates and schedules become.
Final note: 80% of my puppy training is on focus/attention/recall. This is innappropriate for some training disciplines, but perfect for the sorts of things I do.


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

I want to be able to teach better focus as I suck at it! I can get focus but it takes so long, I want a better way. I really like your post, do you mind if I print it off and keep it with my dog training stuff?? 

Courtney


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Courtney Guthrie said:


> I want to be able to teach better focus as I suck at it! I can get focus but it takes so long, I want a better way. I really like your post, do you mind if I print it off and keep it with my dog training stuff??
> 
> Courtney


Sure. Please don't reproduce or claim as yours.

I think focus is the fastest easiest thing to train. I can't seem to train a long down to save my life, but dang! I can do focus!

I just do one thing - say dog's name, click WHEN THE DOG TURNS, or WHEN THE DOG BREAKS ATTENTION from whatever is distracting it, and reward. About 100 times a day. Give or take. Mostly give.

How many kibbles are in one cup? 200? Then 133 to 200 repetitions per day. (I give 3 kibbles for reward, for a total of 2 - 3 cups per day.)

It's all in the timing of the click/mark.


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

Oh, I won't, I'm just gonna punch holes in it and put it in my notes of my training log where I keep articles and such! 

Well, I can train a Long down,......SO we'll trade, I'll send mine to you for focus and you can send yours to me for long downs! lol lol 

Courtney


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Courtney Guthrie said:


> Oh, I won't, I'm just gonna punch holes in it and put it in my notes of my training log where I keep articles and such!
> 
> Well, I can train a Long down,......SO we'll trade, I'll send mine to you for focus and you can send yours to me for long downs! lol lol
> 
> Courtney


I've learned it's a good idea to teach the long down (or a version of it) before hitting the focus too intensely. When I look back, I can see my fault in not spending enough time on duration in stays while training the focus/recall/attention heeling intensely. OTOH, I don't like to ask duration from a puppy.

I'm keeping a better balance now. The pup I'm working with now has a 1 minute down in distraction (like while I'm cleaning the house) AND good focus and recall. Sounds lame to some of you, but that's pretty amazing to me. I suck at the long down training. Something to work on in 2009...


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Anne, you don't train Sch now do you??? LOL

New handlers **** up. That is an inevitability, so just train the dog. I learn shit all the time that I wish I would have known 4 years ago. Maybe even more years than that.

My only advice is not to jump from method to method. I see a lot of that with new people. Sometimes you go to a seminar, and you just have to say that you want to learn this new fangled method, but do not feel like doing it with this dog at this point.

Gillian is right, to many new people think you can train without mistakes. Not going to happen. My theory is as long as you are not kicking the dog in the head, you're not messing up that bad. (or using a whip :lol: )


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

"Train without mistakes"????  
WTH am I doing wrong after 50+ yrs? I haven't even come close to doing that.


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## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

I've probably lost a few points in trialing at times for it (along with other mistakes), but I've never insisted on "focus" heeling. The dogs have peripheral vision that works great. I've always thought the "focus" heeling looked a little strange and for those dogs that wrap around the handler to stare up at them, I think that looks even stranger. I've talked to more than one SV judge in the last couple years that said the "focus" is being way overdone, and they do not give any extra points for it. While SChH is different than service dog work, SchH started as a way to see what dogs were good for police work. A good service dog needs to be aware of it's surroundings while in heel position, and the "focus" heeling is not used, at least not on those service dogs and trainers I know.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Skip Morgart said:


> I've probably lost a few points in trialing at times for it (along with other mistakes), but I've never insisted on "focus" heeling. The dogs have peripheral vision that works great. I've always thought the "focus" heeling looked a little strange and for those dogs that wrap around the handler to stare up at them, I think that looks even stranger. I've talked to more than one SV judge in the last couple years that said the "focus" is being way overdone, and they do not give any extra points for it. While SChH is different than service dog work, SchH started as a way to see what dogs were good for police work. A good service dog needs to be aware of it's surroundings while in heel position, and the "focus" heeling is not used, at least not on those service dogs and trainers I know.


SchH no longer serves that purpose. :shrug: Maybe time to find a new sport that fits your ideals and training style?

I like showy heeling for displaying enthusiasm and self-control. I don't like the dogs that hop (both front feet off the ground at the same time) doesn't fall within my definition of self-controlled.

I guess it depends on if the trainer is going for points, going for purpose or for a personal preference. I have an idea of what I want heeling to look like and I train it that way regardless of sport rules. I like a dog to touch me on the front, regardless of sport rules.


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## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

Anne Vaini said:


> SchH no longer serves that purpose. :shrug: Maybe time to find a new sport that fits your ideals and training style?
> .


True that it no longer serves that purpose. But the constant "focus" looks like OCD to me, it's not mentioned in the current rules as a requirement in this sport, and I'm glad that SV judges that I've talked to give it no extra credit.


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