# Service Dogs and the Raw Diet



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

The FDA just released the annual retail meat report.

http://www.fda.gov/AnimalVeterinary...obialResistanceMonitoringSystem/ucm164662.htm

Check it out if you are interested in the bacteria your dog is getting in supermarket-purchased raw diet ingredients.

Interesting to anyone feeding RAW and doing public access (Therapy Dog, Service Dog) or in contact with individuals with a suppressed immune system.

Here is a study done showing asymptomatic dogs shedding salmonellae (when fed salmonella-contaminated raw food). (full text) http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1716752

Because my dogs are Service and Therapy Dogs, I no longer feed raw. Hopefully more information will be available in the future so I can reassess this decision with the additional information.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Were you not aware before you read the report that there is almost always bacteria including salmonella present on raw poultry and other meats?


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I'm also not allowed to feed raw or raw treats to my two therapy dogs when they are actively visiting because we either go to the Children's Hospital or to nursing homes where there are immunocompromised people. Even then, because dogs lick their butts, eat poop, get into trash, and drink out of the toilet even if they're not being fed raw and kibble is not sterile once it's out of the bag, I spray my girls' mouths with Listerine spray before a visit and they are required to have a bath before the visit. MRSA is another concern, but it's more likely that patients will give it to our dogs and not vice versa. Zoonotic concerns are tricky indeed.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I'm also not allowed to feed raw or raw treats to my two therapy dogs when they are actively visiting because we either go to the Children's Hospital or to nursing homes where there are immunocompromised people. Even then, because dogs lick their butts, eat poop, get into trash, and drink out of the toilet even if they're not being fed raw and kibble is not sterile once it's out of the bag, I spray my girls' mouths with Listerine spray before a visit and they are required to have a bath before the visit. MRSA is another concern, but it's more likely that patients will give it to our dogs and not vice versa. Zoonotic concerns are tricky indeed.


Listerine spray? That's a new one to me! How do the dogs respond to that?

I actually gave away the raw food in my freezer because I couldn't find any information on how long a dog needs to be off raw before having contact with immunocomprimised individuals. 

Also, I'm wondering about purchasing kibble in smal bags to reduce contamination.

I'm not a germ-a-phobe (really!), but I have public health concerns and a business reputation to protect!


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I think public health concerns are very valid. The Listerine spray is basically these little pocket packs you can keep in your purse or pocket:










The dogs kind of wrinkle their noses and lick their chops a bit, but don't seem to care much other than that. I have no idea of efficacy or anything, just seemed like it wouldn't hurt. And nice fresh breath! :mrgreen:


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Glad you're back Maren. How long until you disappear now?  Good luck this semester! :grin:


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I've just got a little over 6 more weeks til we start clinical rotations. This lack block of classes isn't too bad so I might be around here a bit more. We've got some interesting classes, like I'm taking Small Animal Behavior Medicine and Zoo Medicine & Surgery as electives. I have a presentation tomorrow in class about training tools used in aggression. Should be interesting as our professor does not like prong collars but loves Gentle Leaders. :roll: So I'll have to tone down my editorializing a bit. :lol: 

I'm also toying with the idea of joining the Army when I get done, but really only if I can work down at Lackland with the MWDs. Now that I've got all three of my brothers in the military somehow (one in Iraq, one in Air National Guard, one in ROTC), I am hearing all about it from my parents, haha! It would be pretty handy if they pay for the majority of my debt so I could have more capital to have my dream job of owning a center for doing sports medicine and nutrition for working/performance/overweight dogs.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

So are you still raising rabbits for dog food, just cooking them now or are you going to all kibble diet?


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I've just got a little over 6 more weeks til we start clinical rotations. This lack block of classes isn't too bad so I might be around here a bit more. We've got some interesting classes, like I'm taking Small Animal Behavior Medicine and Zoo Medicine & Surgery as electives. I have a presentation tomorrow in class about training tools used in aggression. Should be interesting as our professor does not like prong collars but loves Gentle Leaders. :roll: So I'll have to tone down my editorializing a bit. :lol:


Can you get your hands on a copy of the Handbook of Applied Dog Behavior and Training, Volume 3?! The inventor of the Gentle Leader intended it to be a temporary traning tool. Interesting stuff. It's on Google books, but I'm not sure if the pages pertaining to this are available for viewing.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

susan tuck said:


> So are you still raising rabbits for dog food, just cooking them now or are you going to all kibble diet?


Raising rabbits for my roommate's cat's food.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Anne Vaini said:


> Can you get your hands on a copy of the Handbook of Applied Dog Behavior and Training, Volume 3?! The inventor of the Gentle Leader intended it to be a temporary traning tool. Interesting stuff. It's on Google books, but I'm not sure if the pages pertaining to this are available for viewing.


Yeah, I got that book because I checked it out from the vet school library a few years ago, lost it during a move, they charged me for it to replace it, then I found it again. #-o$175 is a bit steep for it but yeah...anyways, we're supposed to find pros and cons to all the training tools we use and yup, that will be my main one for all training tools. Even a buckle collar and leash does no good if you only teach the dog what you don't want to do and not what you want them to do.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Yep, raw food, pure as the driven snow.

DUMBASS ! ! ! ! ! !

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA

I got pee trickling out I am laughing so hard.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

I think one thing to note is those that feed green tripe. Basically this was food, but is not quite yet feces. A batch tested from a friends Raw dog food company...proved to have 175 times the allowable limit for meat sold for human consumption of E-coli in it. After that he pulled it from the menu, due to liability issues.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Jeff I hate to break it to you but you are the dumbass if you didn't know there is a certain amount of bacteria on raw poultry from the supermarket, this is not anything new. Most raw feeders are aware raw poultry and meats can carry bacteria, including Salmonella. Most feel that following the FDA guidelines for safe handling of raw meats is precaution enough. Why do you think the FDA publishes specific Safe Food Handling Guidelines? Obviously, people who take their dogs to hospital must take extra precautions to not expose sick people, especially immunosuppressed people to these bacterias, so they have to do things the rest of us don't including bathing the dogs before every hospital visit and not feeding a RAW diet.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

I thought it was a givin that raw food was covered with every cooty there is. Or should at least be treated like it is. I pretty much think everyone knows this. You saying some of you just figured it out with an article? Who cares if it has 175% more than should be there for a human it aint going to a human? its going to something that eats turds ? Wasn’t this gone over a million times, how dogs don’t really get this stuff? Somebody help me out here


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Susan, are you shooting for dumbass of the moment ???

Do you really think that I don't know what is on raw food ??

I just think it is hilarious that she had a twenty six page thread on how much of this and that and used all the fancy terms and then didn't have it in her pea brain that the reasons humans COOK food is that it is covered in disgusting shit that needs to be killed off with high temps.

So, AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHHAHA


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Anne Did you not know that raw meats contain all kinds of bacteria?


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> Anne Did you not know that raw meats contain all kinds of bacteria?


I cant wait to read this half ass excuses. 
When you throw raw dead stuff to your dogs and it lays in the sun shit grows on it. Does it really matter if you give a dog a bath, feed them dry food and mouth wash? No they can lick their ass or nuts anytime they want. What are you gona do next clean there ass with mouth wash? Still aint gona help


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Yeah, I got that book because I checked it out from the vet school library a few years ago, lost it during a move, they charged me for it to replace it, then I found it again. #-o$175 is a bit steep for it but yeah...anyways, we're supposed to find pros and cons to all the training tools we use and yup, that will be my main one for all training tools. Even a buckle collar and leash does no good if you only teach the dog what you don't want to do and not what you want them to do.


This came up last night when I was chatting with my roommate who is in a vet-tech program. I had to dig up that page. I think it was pg 31. 

Every training tool can be used in a way that is abusive and /or injurous. It's not the tool - it is how the trainer uses it!


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Chris McDonald said:


> I thought it was a givin that raw food was covered with every cooty there is. Or should at least be treated like it is. I pretty much think everyone knows this. You saying some of you just figured it out with an article? Who cares if it has 175% more than should be there for a human it aint going to a human? its going to something that eats turds ? Wasn’t this gone over a million times, how dogs don’t really get this stuff? Somebody help me out here


Chris, I think you're totally missing it. This is for the application of Service or Therapy Dogs, or dogs who are in contact with immunocomprimised individuals.

As the cited study details, dogs can pass on bacteria from contaminated food, EVEN WHEN THE DOG HAS NO SYMPTOMS. So simply saying, my dog is asymptomatic, so it must be fine, is not good enough when the dog is in contact with immunocomprimised individuals.

It's not about the dog's health - it is a public health concern.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Anne Vaini said:


> Chris, I think you're totally missing it. This is for the application of Service or Therapy Dogs, or dogs who are in contact with immunocomprimised individuals. .... It's not about the dog's health - it is a public health concern.


I think many of us were able to get the gist of it. :roll: We could have a special seminar later for those who need a recap.

Anyway -- Anne, what about the "kibble problem" (that is, so many commercial foods recalled for salmonella and e. coli)?

This is actually discovered often, and it must be true that it's often undiscovered (the dogs being asymptomatic). Is that seen as a hidden problem or just ignored as un-fixable?

And, as mentioned, what about the dog-snacking-from-the-litter-box and dog-eating-roadkill and dog-licking-butts problem? Or is the pathogen load enough smaller to be insignificant?


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Chris McDonald said:


> I thought it was a givin that raw food was covered with every cooty there is. Or should at least be treated like it is. I pretty much think everyone knows this. You saying some of you just figured it out with an article? Who cares if it has 175% more than should be there for a human it aint going to a human? its going to something that eats turds ? Wasn’t this gone over a million times, how dogs don’t really get this stuff? Somebody help me out here


Dogs can get E coli, and samonella poisoning, though it is rare. Dogs can also get sepis from bacteria. They are not immue...and it's not 175% more...it's a 175 X more. That is compounded expontetially. 

I would also care if the dog that just tripe licked my childs hand, then my child put it in his mouth. I do feed raw.

That's why I posted it's something to note. Not something to be paranoid about.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Also most of the bacteria in a dogs mouth is zoologically specific to a dog...meaning the bacteria is harmless and cannot survive in a human. It's the bacteria on the food, that is harmful to us.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Anyway -- Anne, what about the "kibble problem" (that is, so many commercial foods recalled for salmonella and e. coli)?
> 
> This is actually discovered often, and it must be true that it's often undiscovered (the dogs being asymptomatic). Is that seen as a hidden problem or just ignored as un-fixable?


I'm ignoring as un-fixable at the moment. I don't have time / money to prepare a cooked diet for the dogs. I also don't have time / money / equipment to test every bag of dog food that I buy. (But I totally would if I could!) 



> And, as mentioned, what about the dog-snacking-from-the-litter-box and dog-eating-roadkill and dog-licking-butts problem? Or is the pathogen load enough smaller to be insignificant?


Because none of the dogs fed uncontaminated food in the study shed the particular bacteria being studied, this suggests that, in a kennel environment (no roadkill or litter box), it is insignificant. Of course, that has yet to be studied...


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

I get it, It’s just hard to believe that they just figured this important information out. Is there a known case of a sick person getting sicker from petting a dog? As far as licking kids after eating tripe what is the right amount of time needed? Or are we now saying dogs that eat raw can no longer have lick contact with people? or do they have to wait an hour? or two? or 3? 
Did you read the part that the study was paid for by Science Diet?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Chris McDonald said:


> Did you read the part that the study was paid for by Science Diet?


I can't tell you how many "OMIGOD RAW!" "studies" are funded by Hills/SD.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Chris McDonald said:


> It’s just hard to believe that they just figured this important information out.


No, it's not new news. It was a big "OH NO!" warning from my vet when I first switched to raw, in fact, years ago.


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## Michael Wise (Sep 14, 2008)

> _Did you read the part that the study was paid for by Science Diet?_




I couldn't find that.

Only, "Funding for this research was obtained from the Ontario Veterinary Pet Trust, Public Health Agency of Canada."

But then I don't know who donates there, either.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I can't tell you how many "OMIGOD RAW!" "studies" are funded by Hills/SD.


 
That's funny cause that study claimed to be the first of it's type.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

James Downey said:


> That's funny cause that study claimed to be the first of it's type.


Other studies, dude. Other omigod studies


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

James Downey said:


> That's funny cause that study claimed to be the first of it's type.



Not by a long shot. :lol:

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=339295

2002


http://docs.google.com/gview?a=v&q=...nells,+immune-compromised+people,&hl=en&gl=us

2002


But also see
http://www.rawfed.com/myths/zoonotic.html



and Wikipedia (not my most authoritative source, definitely, but these snippets are all drawn from pretty good sources):
_... Hill's Pet Nutrition, makers of Science Diet and a range of prescription only food is a major sponsor of the American Veterinary Medical Association. ... Frequently, veterinary schools receive nutrition training that is sponsored or directly provided to students by pet food manufacturers. The Wall Street Journal reports that Hill's "spends hundreds of thousands of dollars a year funding university research and nutrition courses at every one of the 27 U.S. veterinary colleges" and that vets profit as much as 40% from sales of Science Diet and other foods sold from their offices. _


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

James Downey said:


> Also most of the bacteria in a dogs mouth is zoologically specific to a dog...meaning the bacteria is harmless and cannot survive in a human. It's the bacteria on the food, that is harmful to us.


It's probably a bad idea to eat dog poop, immune-compromised or not. :lol:


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

James Downey said:


> Also most of the bacteria in a dogs mouth is zoologically specific to a dog...meaning the bacteria is harmless and cannot survive in a human. It's the bacteria on the food, that is harmful to us.


That is absolutely NOT true. Dog bites and especially cat bites are particularly dangerous because they inoculate the wound with all sorts of bacteria that is pathogenic to humans. Without breaking out my public health class notes, _Pasteurella multocida_ is one of the big guns and which is why bite wounds should looked at by medical professionals. It's also the reason that dog and cat bites are not typically sutured right away because you don't want to trap all that contamination into the wound. 

And it's well documented that dogs that eat salmonella, campylobacter, and E. coli contaminated food can shed the organisms in the stool, so if the dog just licked its butt, and then licked an immunocompromised individual, it can be a public health issue. That is one way the organisms spread. Which is why everyone (not just raw feeders) should pick up after their dogs, which should go without saying. :wink: So suffice it to say that while I personally don't mind raw diets if they are done correctly (and as one of my dogs is gnawing a lamb humerus at my feet), you need to do risk/benefit analysis if your dogs are therapy/service dogs or if you have young children in the house who are 1) more likely to put their hands in their mouths and 2) don't have as a robust immune system as healthy adults. In those cases, it is likely more prudent to do a well designed home cooked diet or some other commercial diet. Kibble is supposed to be sterile when it goes into the bags, by the way. Doesn't stay that way when people buy the jumbo bag of dog chow and throw it in a bin the 100 F+ garage during the summer though...


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> ... Kibble is supposed to be sterile when it goes into the bags, by the way. ...


_Supposed_ to be .... :lol:

Remember the recall of 11/08?

http://petcare.suite101.com/article.cfm/2008_salmonella_pet_food_recall_is_expanded


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Oh yes, I remember quite well...I guess that's one of the reasons I like Natura so much because they manufacture their own kibble, so they get a lot more control in the process.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> That is absolutely NOT true. Dog bites and especially cat bites are particularly dangerous because they inoculate the wound with all sorts of bacteria that is pathogenic to humans. Without breaking out my public health class notes, _Pasteurella multocida_ is one of the big guns and which is why bite wounds should looked at by medical professionals. It's also the reason that dog and cat bites are not typically sutured right away because you don't want to trap all that contamination into the wound.
> 
> And it's well documented that dogs that eat salmonella, campylobacter, and E. coli contaminated food can shed the organisms in the stool, so if the dog just licked its butt, and then licked an immunocompromised individual, it can be a public health issue. That is one way the organisms spread. Which is why everyone (not just raw feeders) should pick up after their dogs, which should go without saying. :wink: So suffice it to say that while I personally don't mind raw diets if they are done correctly (and as one of my dogs is gnawing a lamb humerus at my feet), you need to do risk/benefit analysis if your dogs are therapy/service dogs or if you have young children in the house who are 1) more likely to put their hands in their mouths and 2) don't have as a robust immune system as healthy adults. In those cases, it is likely more prudent to do a well designed home cooked diet or some other commercial diet. Kibble is supposed to be sterile when it goes into the bags, by the way. Doesn't stay that way when people buy the jumbo bag of dog chow and throw it in a bin the 100 F+ garage during the summer though...


Not that it’s a bite, but what’s the deal cat scratch fever? Those cats a responsible for a whole bunch more amputations than anyone would ever imagine


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Oh yes, I remember quite well...I guess that's one of the reasons I like Natura so much because they manufacture their own kibble, so they get a lot more control in the process.


Yes, me too. I practically memorized WDJ's list of regional and local manufacturers who did their own. Needless to say, the three big Natura products were on the list.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> _Supposed_ to be .... :lol:
> 
> Remember the recall of 11/08?
> 
> http://petcare.suite101.com/article.cfm/2008_salmonella_pet_food_recall_is_expanded


 
Great job on keeping this post semi civil Connie… Good job…. Good job =D>


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Chris McDonald said:


> Great job on keeping this post semi civil Connie… Good job…. Good job =D>


?


I thought it was all civil.


e.t.a.

Well, except for the usual suspects ... :lol:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Chris McDonald said:


> Not that it’s a bite, but what’s the deal cat scratch fever? Those cats a responsible for a whole bunch more amputations than anyone would ever imagine


Bartonella.

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/eid/vol1no1/regnery.htm


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> ?
> 
> 
> I thought it was all civil.
> ...


I looked it over, your right. The only stupid thing was said by me. How many people to you think looked to see if it was paid for by Science Diet? 
What the hell is E.T.A?


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Bartonella.
> 
> http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/eid/vol1no1/regnery.htm


Holly cow it would take me an hour to try and figure out what there talking about on this link. I tried to skim it but got the hell out when I saw herpes and HIV. I don’t know what this has to do with a cat scratch! 
They got Cliff notes to the page?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Chris McDonald said:


> They got Cliff notes to the page? ....


Yeah: http://www.cdc.gov/HEALTHYPETS/diseases/catscratch.htm


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Yeah: http://www.cdc.gov/HEALTHYPETS/diseases/catscratch.htm


Perfect, its all most of will ever need! Thanks


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## Curtis McHail (Nov 7, 2009)

Anne Vaini said:


> The FDA just released the annual retail meat report.
> 
> http://www.fda.gov/AnimalVeterinary...obialResistanceMonitoringSystem/ucm164662.htm
> 
> ...


 



Yeah...you do know that even you have e. coli and other deadly bacteria in your feces as well? I don't care what you feed your dog eating his crap isn't recommended so who cares what he's shedding in his crap? Most cases of salmonella go undiagnosed because it's usually 1-3 days of runny stools. Only a tiny percentage of the diagnosed cases of salmonella are treated with anti-biotics aka the doctor in most cases of salmonella poisoning will tell you to go home and learn to wash your hands better...Poo is deadly no matter what you eat.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Curtis McHail said:


> Yeah...you do know that even you have e. coli and other deadly bacteria in your feces as well? I don't care what you feed your dog eating his crap isn't recommended so who cares what he's shedding in his crap? Most cases of salmonella go undiagnosed because it's usually 1-3 days of runny stools. Only a tiny percentage of the diagnosed cases of salmonella are treated with anti-biotics aka the doctor in most cases of salmonella poisoning will tell you to go home and learn to wash your hands better...Poo is deadly no matter what you eat.


Yeah .. I do recommend that people not eat dog poop, no matter what the dog is fed. Or any poop.

I saw a funny post on another board where someone asked about raw-fed dog saliva on the toy or ball that you are throwing for him to fetch, and someone else said something about how it all falls in with the raw-poop stuff that Hills loves to dwell on, and added "Is it really that hard for these people to keep dog poop and dog spit out of their mouths?" :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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