# Slow maturing or just plain no good?



## Fathi Shahin (Apr 2, 2010)

Hi, I have a blegium malinois who is now 10 months old he come from some pretty good unregistered knpv bloodline. The breeder built his drive using rocks in a bottle. 

When i recieved the pup at 8-9weeks of age he was mad for the the bottle with rocks in it. But he showed absolutly no interest for a rag or tug. 

He eventually began to show no interest for the rocks and if he did it was momentary. 

Now he is 10 months old and he is showing some interest in a tug but it not explosive and he lets go very easy. 

When someone hides in the bush and we walk up slowly he barks and chases, so in this regard he does well. As for a fight and prey drive he is not showing much.

So my question is: IS HE A SLOW MATURING DOG OR IS HE JUST PLAIN NO GOOD FOR POLICE/MILITARY WORK?

On the Bloedlijn site his BRN is 16204


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Thru the Ringo- side he could be a late dog, I would wait another month or 2 if you want to know for sure. 

Your puppies are for 75 % sure to be late dogs ;-)


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## Fathi Shahin (Apr 2, 2010)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Thru the Ringo- side he could be a late dog, I would wait another month or 2 if you want to know for sure.
> 
> Your puppies are for 75 % sure to be late dogs ;-)


Thanks Selena,

But do you mean if i breed him his pups will be 75% slow maturing as well?


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Fathi Shahin said:


> Thanks Selena,
> 
> But do you mean if i breed him his pups will be 75% slow maturing as well?


No, I mean that the NInja puppies that you kept will be for a very big chance the slow maturing kind.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> No, I mean that the NInja puppies that you kept will be for a very big chance the slow maturing kind.


 
What lines have a high percentage (GOOD) of maturing late? I have seen and have had experience with the Endor lines. ;-)


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## Fathi Shahin (Apr 2, 2010)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> No, I mean that the NInja puppies that you kept will be for a very big chance the slow maturing kind.


The pups are 10 weeks old today and are absolutly crazy over a tug, rag or whatever else i wave at them. The male i kept is especially dominate over anything he has possesion over. The whole litter was very consistent and have all very high drive and it seems to be getting stronger every week.

Why do you think they have the chance of being slow matures?

Thanks again for your help with this.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

'cause of the hight percentage of Rambo in their lines (through Wibo & Arco) and our own line, who also usually mature slower than most mal lines.

I know puppies who still sleeping at the stake out at 10 mo, and complety bite the hell out of everyone by the time they were 13 mo ;-)

Rambo gives late maturing dogs, my dad is more than one time called that the pup won't do anything and got the chance to buy the dog back at 14 mo 'cause they got afraid of it..


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

'cause of the hight percentage of Rambo in their lines (through Wibo & Arco) and our own line, who also usually mature slower than most mal lines.

I know puppies who still sleeping at the stake out at 10 mo, and complety bite the hell out of everyone by the time they were 13 mo ;-)

Rambo gives late maturing dogs, my dad is more than one time called that the pup won't do anything and got the chance to buy the dog back at 14 mo 'cause they got afraid of it..


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## Fathi Shahin (Apr 2, 2010)

Thanks for that Selena this has been very helpfull.

Would a Slow maturing dog be considered worse than a dog that shows drive from as a pup even though they turn out to be just as good as each other? 

Which would be a more suitable prospect to breed on with?

What i am trying to work out is whether or not a slow maturing dog is considered a bad thing even though he/she might turn out to be better than a dog that shows really good drive as a young dog.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Depends on the efficiency you require to determine a proper evaluation. Your clients could be upset for lost time with a dog that in the end didn't meet their expectations.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

No problem at all with dogs that mature slowly as long as they show nice confidence and stable character.
It's the final result that counts, not the speed


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I think a lot of new owners tend to place too much importance on bitework.

Workiing lines from many a breed, be it Malinois, GSD, Great Schnauzer, Airedale, Bulldog, Dobermann, Bouvier, Briard etc. are willing and able to "bite".

What new owners have to watch out for is how confident their pup is in other things. My older GSD hung on to Toni's jeans at eight weeks whereever he went but was lukewarm on a tug with me but not with rag. I waited,"knowing" that he would turn out ok and at 9 months took him for his first bite - helper had to change from young dog sleeve to older dog sleeve pretty quickly and he's no "ninny".

I'm not a Mali expert but working GSD dogs always bite (in varying degrees!!!). However, if you get a GSD from good working stock there is no reason to doubt its biting. The quality of the biting shows up, naturally, but not everyone makes it to the podest. Some are happy with a dog that shows itself good in regional trials. 

I'd be more interested in how they track or do obedience - biting is (for me) the lesser evil apart from the control!!!


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## kristin tresidder (Oct 23, 2008)

it seems wherever you go in dogs, no matter the venue, so many people are in such a hurry! if a pup isn't the finished product by 6-12months it's a problem. that mentality doesn't make sense to me...


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: it seems wherever you go in dogs, no matter the venue, so many people are in such a hurry! if a pup isn't the finished product by 6-12months it's a problem. that mentality doesn't make sense to me...

I don't know about 12 months, but a dog that doesn't wake up till 14 months is 14 months of doing what ??

For me, I don't like this kind of dog, as too many times I have had people tell my friends and clients to "just wait longer" and the dog never did wake up, and everyone was real patient until at 3 years of age they figured out they got ****ed.

I just want to do stuff with the dog before this, as I have a lot to do with the dog, others might want to wait, but think of it this way, if the dog is gonna be a crapper, you are gonna wait extra long in hopes that the dog will come around, only to be even MORE disapointed than before.

Most people do not breed like Dick does, so the whole thing becomes way more random, and there will be more pups that really don't work out.

AND, we keep getting dogs from overseas and have no idea what they are what they produce, and have to rely way too much on someone elses word to be comfortable with the whole "late maturing" thing for the most part.

I know Endor sons that people are still waiting to mature. LOL Could be years.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Martine Loots said:


> No problem at all with dogs that mature slowly as long as they show nice confidence and stable character.
> It's the final result that counts, not the speed


Exatly how i feel about it.:wink:

Dick


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> No, I mean that the NInja puppies that you kept will be for a very big chance the slow maturing kind.


Interesting. I have to say Selena, these Boy x Ninja pups have crazy drive. And all pups are the same, very little difference between them. I actually didnt expect to see them like this, but Fathi did huge amounts of imprinting with them.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

I won't say it will be that way, I say there is a very big chance.

A puppy playing (prey) or really mean it is a different thing. hard to explain what I mean, can't find the right words.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> I won't say it will be that way, I say there is a very big chance.
> 
> A puppy playing (prey) or really mean it is a different thing. hard to explain what I mean, can't find the right words.


Ok, I was going to ask you that as well. So by slow maturing you dont mean not showing any prey drive as a puppy for the rag or tug?


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Christopher Jones said:


> Ok, I was going to ask you that as well. So by slow maturing you dont mean not showing any prey drive as a puppy for the rag or tug?


 no, the one doesn't have to do with the other. Prey= playing, all young working line dogs will do that. But for the natural agression (really want to bite the man, not the prey item/suit/sleeve) they have by their genetics requires a certain mental maturity.

And mental maturity has to grow to a dog, and based on my knowledge and experience of the used bloodlines, i'll say there is a very great change that mental maturity will not show up till around 12-13 mo ;-)


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> no, the one doesn't have to do with the other. Prey= playing, all young working line dogs will do that. But for the natural agression (really want to bite the man, not the prey item/suit/sleeve) they have by their genetics requires a certain mental maturity.
> 
> And mental maturity has to grow to a dog, and based on my knowledge and experience of the used bloodlines, i'll say there is a very great change that mental maturity will not show up till around 12-13 mo ;-)


Cool. Alot of people will write off lack of drive in puppies as "slow maturing" as well. 
I can understand you meaning high fight comes with maturity, and I agree. 
So long as you can use the prey drive early on to teach proper biting and to expose the puppy to new situations, waiting till 13 months before they want to eat people is no big deal.


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

I dont mind, but was told my dog would be a little slow to mature, out of curiosity, is there a certain dog(s) in the pedigree that it could be traced to?


Brn15697


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Matt Grosch said:


> I dont mind, but was told my dog would be a little slow to mature, out of curiosity, is there a certain dog(s) in the pedigree that it could be traced to?
> 
> 
> Brn15697


Damn, that is a NICE pedigree! 
I have seen several dogs from Castor de Groot lines that all had a lot of aggression, but were not totally ready to do battle until they were close to 18 months old. Compared to GSDs this is very fast maturing, but compared to some Malis this is slow. The lines from Endor for example (very heavy on Rambo Van Rossum) mature very slowly, but when they are mature, most are very nice dogs. 
many X KNPV line dogs mature more slowly than most FCI Malis, so at 10 months of age a lot of the smaller FCI dogs look better, but at 2 years old the X KNPV dog usually are much stronger dogs.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

mike suttle said:


> Damn, that is a NICE pedigree!
> I have seen several dogs from Castor de Groot lines that all had a lot of aggression, but were not totally ready to do battle until they were close to 18 months old. Compared to GSDs this is very fast maturing, but compared to some Malis this is slow. The lines from Endor for example (very heavy on Rambo Van Rossum) mature very slowly, but when they are mature, most are very nice dogs.
> many X KNPV line dogs mature more slowly than most FCI Malis, so at 10 months of age a lot of the smaller FCI dogs look better, but at 2 years old the X KNPV dog usually are much stronger dogs.


Endor (very heavy on Rambo)? hmmmmmm...:wink:


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Jody Butler said:


> Endor (very heavy on Rambo)? hmmmmmm...:wink:


 Shhh.......:-#


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Christopher Jones said:


> Shhh.......:-#


 
:-\":-\"\\/


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