# Buying an export dog



## Hil Harrison (Mar 29, 2006)

I know a lot of people buy dogs especially from Holland, Germany and Belgium from the k9 centers etc here. How would you test the dog and what would you be looking for most?


----------



## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

A dog that doesnt hide behind the handler when the decoy puts the sleeve on the ground would be nice. I'll be courteous and not mention the name of the dealer that showed me that piece of........


----------



## Hil Harrison (Mar 29, 2006)

:lol: :lol: Yeah Mike but how would you test? Would ya look for a dog with high ball drive or ball and bite?;-) Everyone has different test methodes it seems


----------



## Johan Dekinder (Sep 17, 2007)

How to test a dog would all depend on what kind of dog I was looking for at that moment (pers. protection, tracking, drugs, etc etc), or waht qualitues I'm looking for. All require different tests..
One thing I find very important : always test a dog on a neutral field.

J


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

First and foremost the dog should come out of the airport crate like he belongs there. 
If it doesn't pass that, the deal is off! 
After that I would like to see strong prey then defence.


----------



## Trish Campbell (Nov 28, 2006)

First and foremost I would have someone I know test the dog. Unless it's someone I know personally selling the dog; I want to be able to form my own opinions, not just go by what they say  Buyer beware....
Depending on what I wanted the dog for would determine how it was tested. No matter what the dogs purpose was going to be-I want an excellent temperament, confident, good nerved dog. Since I'm a breeder, not only do I want to know how the dog works, I also want to know about the parents of the dog, the siblings, etc. Also any history I can get on the dog, how many owners, what type of training it has had, also breeding history if the dog has been bred. It helps if you have someone looking for you who has worked siblings, progeny, very familiar with the dogs in the pedigree first hand. I do as much research as possible to try to ensure when I open that crate, I know what I'm getting!


----------



## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I think the first thing you have to realize is; we are going to end up with the best of those that breeders in Europe DON't want for one reason or another. The second thing I've learned is; Caveat emptor, buyer beware. A third, always test on a neutral site, as Johan suggested. Fourth, do your own x-rays. Since I am an end user so to speak, not concerned with breeding the dog, the health and temperment of that particular animal means the most. What his lineage has accomplished is worthless to me. In short, don't be taken in by a long list of ancestors that have done everything but solve inflation. I pick each dog its' merits.

DFrost


----------



## Hil Harrison (Mar 29, 2006)

Some nice answers here and yes IMHO a neutral ground be be my first issue too before even a test started. On a too familiar ground the dog feels maybe more at ease. Nice to read what Trish as breeder would be looking for .

So do the buyers also haggle the price? and if so do the buyers get the price they want most of the time?

@ David...you said " I think the first thing you have to realize is; we are going to end up with the best of those that breeders in Europe DON't want for one reason or another."

Do you think the dogs in general that come from Europe are more the "scraps" or that the majority are still good dogs?


----------



## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I'm trying to be tactful. I think we get the best of what's been picked over. It's a sad commentary on what we have available in the US, actually. When the bottom of the barrel is frequently better than what we grow ourselves. 

DFrost


----------



## Johan Dekinder (Sep 17, 2007)

Living in Europe (Belgium) , knowing some people who are into the exporting business, and being an honest guy, I'm afraid I have to say David is correct ...


----------



## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

If you want a good dog from Europe you are going to pay alot of money for him.

But, there is a trend in poorer countries such as Czech to breed and raise dogs for the purpose of being sold with less focus on keeping the good ones to themselves, because the money is more important to them.

To be honest though, I've not been overly impressed with most dogs I see in Europe. I think we have about the same in the US as they do here. Lots of crap, lots of average and a few really good dogs.

In the dog dealing business where it is more common to buy adult dogs that have been imported, the dogs sold are usually sold for a reason. But when it comes to puppies, we have the same bloodlines in the US as they do in Europe.It's just down to who happens to own the dog, how good they are as a handler and who competes. When the USA goes to Europe as a team, there is 1 team, the USA team. In Europe when they go to the trials as a team, you have the Dutch Team, the Belgian Team, the German Team, the Spanish Team, the French Team etc etc etc. So by comparison, it seems like theres less in the US than there is in Europe, when the reality is that Europe is a continent, not a country, so by shere numbers its a little misleading.

The litter my pups are from are from an excellent pedigree, the dam was purchased in Europe and studded to Melano and shipped to the US pregnant. Same breeding that a European has access to..... 10 pups, 2 of them went to me, a bunch got kept back by the breeder and will probably be sold eventually since he has a hard time claiming a dog as his "personal dog", if someone shows him some cash the dog is gone, and the rest all went to pet homes who are never going to go anywhere with the dogs. Its sad but thats the case with many working pups, they end up as pets and taken out of the working dog pool.

There is also a big difference in the type of dogs that law enforcement looks for in the US compared to the European K9's I've seen. The departments I have worked with in Florida usually have a bunch of rookie handlers, and a bunch of seasoned handlers that know about as much as the rookie's do, with 1 or 2 people that might actually know what they're doing. You can't give a guy who's never even owned a dog a very serious dog, and with the sue happy public the dogs departments choose tend to be relatively soft on correction and very social, rather than extremely hard and antisocial. More often than not if you give (some, most? who knows, every county is different accross a very large continent) departments the hardest dog like they are asking for, the dog will probably come back because he's too crazy, too handler aggressive, too antisocial, or just too much dog. Most dog dealers I know will pass over the hard hard dogs from Europe simply because they don't want to deal with the dog getting returned because the handler didn't know what to do with a dog that was growling at him for the first week everytime he went to let him out of the crate. This isn't a big secret, every dog dealer I've talked to in Europe knows it, so on top of picking the dogs out of the locally rejected pool of dogs, they intentionally pick dogs they believe aren't going to get returned because returns are a pain in the ass. They pick a dog that'll bite someone, but is social and relatively soft.

Problem dogs also get sold, dogs nobody wants to handle, dogs that have bitten their handlers, dogs that are borderline uncorrectable with a prong, because they need to dump the dog on someone. These traits dont automatically mean the dogs are worth a damn either, I worked a $15,000 dog belonging to a 20 year old girl that bit her mother when she came near the dogs toy while cleaning the house, yet I put the dog into avoidance when I hit him with a stick wearing a jute sleeve :roll:


----------



## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Mike says;

"There is also a big difference in the type of dogs that law enforcement looks for in the US compared to the European K9's I've seen. The departments I have worked with in Florida usually have a bunch of rookie handlers, and a bunch of seasoned handlers that know about as much as the rookie's do, with 1 or 2 people that might actually know what they're doing. You can't give a guy who's never even owned a dog a very serious dog, and with the sue happy public the dogs departments choose tend to be relatively soft on correction and very social, rather than extremely hard and antisocial. More often than not if you give (some, most? who knows, every county is different accross a very large continent) departments the hardest dog like they are asking for, the dog will probably come back because he's too crazy, too handler aggressive, too antisocial, or just too much dog. Most dog dealers I know will pass over the hard hard dogs from Europe simply because they don't want to deal with the dog getting returned because the handler didn't know what to do with a dog that was growling at him for the first week everytime he went to let him out of the crate. This isn't a big secret, every dog dealer I've talked to in Europe knows it, so on top of picking the dogs out of the locally rejected pool of dogs, they intentionally pick dogs they believe aren't going to get returned because returns are a pain in the ass. They pick a dog that'll bite someone, but is social and relatively soft."

From a law enforcement perspective and a personal perspective, I'd say Mike is pretty dead on with his assessment.

DFrost


----------



## Bryan Colletti (Feb 16, 2007)

*Hil it is not about the dogs.*

I need to know the person, they need to know me. We need to have understandings of certain dogs. Like my expectations of a Dual Purpose, detection only, or a very strong prison type dog. 

I like to establish relationships. When we are on the same page as to what we need in dogs, no testing is necessary.

Now Hil if you desire doing more business in the States, my advice is this, dogs with tremendous nerve strength, hunt drive, and easily handled by anyone. Be completely honest as the pluses and minus, no dogs are perfect. Strong Protection dogs are not nearly as important here. So many Police Depts are so Law Suit averse now. They want Public Relations dogs more than anything. 

I personally like exporters that are breeders and trainers first. Anyone can farm out dogs. But, those who can quickly assess the pros and cons of the dogs they sell, so there are no surprizes impress me. So many dog people title a dog, and before you know they are selling Police Dogs. The money is huge. But, experience in the dogworld is better.


----------



## Trish Campbell (Nov 28, 2006)

"I personally like exporters that are breeders and trainers first"

I agree with you Brian. Like I said, I'm looking at a dog as a breeder, I'm trying to get as much information and detail as possible. I think though, even if I was just looking at a dog as just an individual-I'd like to know about it's parent's, siblings, etc. Wether you are into pedigrees or not-I'd like to know what the health is like in these dogs, are they still sound and working at older ages or breaking down? Any nerve issues, quirks, etc? The apple usually doesn't fall far from the tree...

Bottom line though, is that just because it's an "import" there are scam artists out there putting ridiculous prices on dogs who are "titled" up the wazoo but couldn't pass a BH or bite if they had too. I think that is true wether you are looking for a sport prospect or a K9. People get taken all of the time...

That's why it's of the utmost importance to have someone you know who really understands dogs, knows what to look for, how to test, etc to evaluate prospects if you can't go to Europe yourself. I'm like Brian, I have someone who is a breeder/trainer himself I work with in Europe. The best dogs I've gotten weren't even advertised anywhere. So find someone who knows and works dogs in the same capacity you are intending to work with the dog-wether as a breeder, sport prospect, or working K9.


----------



## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

*Re: Hil it is not about the dogs.*

"When we are on the same page as to what we need in dogs, no testing is necessary."

Brian, I don't totally disagree with what you've stated. I do think you sometimes underestimate the skill level of the police trainers that are out there. None-the-less, I wouldn't care what kind of relationship I had with a vendor. If I was buying a dog from JC Himself, I'd test it, and do my own X-rays before purchasing it.

DFrost


----------



## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

*Re: Hil it is not about the dogs.*

"Sooner or later a dog dealer will screw you"


----------



## Bryan Colletti (Feb 16, 2007)

*Re: Hil it is not about the dogs.*



David Frost said:


> "When we are on the same page as to what we need in dogs, no testing is necessary."
> 
> Brian, I don't totally disagree with what you've stated. I do think you sometimes underestimate the skill level of the police trainers that are out there.
> 
> ...


----------



## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

*Re: Hil it is not about the dogs.*

"That desire to acquire a more well rounded education in dogs is not seen much in the Police World."

That's a very difinitive statement. It's too bad that is your experience. It differs from mine, but then that's all I do is police training. I'd like to think I didn't stop learning after the first couple of years in my 43 year career. 

DFrost


----------



## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

*Re: Hil it is not about the dogs.*

I've met quite a few LE K9 trainers, while I agree some of them could be a little smarter, most of them are good at performing the training required of the dogs in their field. Thats not to say they can go out and become world class sport handlers, because none of them know squat about sport :lol: But their training methods are good from what I saw and their philosophies make sense to me.

Handlers...... now theres another story :lol: But I have been impressed by a few handlers, one in particular unfortunately got injured and is no longer in K9. He had never owned a dog and was given an 18 month old green GSD. In 2 months that dog had very nice OB, the dog looked happy and was very consistent in his work and I was just amazed that this guy who'd never held a leash before had such a connection with this dog. He was always tracking, his goal was to be the go-to guy for tracking in his unit. I admired the dedication he had compared to some of the guys who's dogs had crappy OB and had been on the unit for 12 years or more :lol: I know he enjoyed that too! He accomplished in 2 months what most people I've met haven't seemed to get the hang of in 2 years.

In all walks of life there are those that take it seriously, and those that don't. Unfortunately, its the ones who don't that usually stand out and set the reputation.


----------



## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

*Re: Hil it is not about the dogs.*

Mike I don't disagree with that. I've commented many times, that,I don't know squat about sport. Like in every profession, you have those that do the job substandard, those that meet minimum standard and those that excell. Being a canine officer brings with it a different perspective. A canine officer, in many departments, is still an officer. He/she must still perform all the other associated tasks that other officers must perform, in addition to being a canine officer. Some are cut out for it, some aren't. The department program itself has to be held accountable as well as the handler. Those departments that don't have written standards, or a mandatory measurement (test, evaluation etc) certainly have those people you described as less than adequate. I guess that's why like in sport, you have some that will never get beyond local club level. It's one of the reasons I've always felt each state should have a mandatory certification procedure. I admit it gets under my skin a bit though, when people catagorically criticize all police dogs and police dog trainers. There have been quite a few that have muddled along quite nicely and even train some pretty good dogs for our purposes. As has been said before, what we do isn't sport.

DFrost


----------



## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

*Re: Hil it is not about the dogs.*



> I admit it gets under my skin a bit though, when people catagorically criticize all police dogs and police dog trainers.


Look at Europe...... "the arrogant French", "the lazy Spaniards", "the stupid Belgians", "the Dutch have a big mouth"... all different countries that are considered seperate. But, the entire continent of North America is judged as a single country, making it very easy to generalize just about everything. Now, if someone said "those stupid Police K9 trainers in Arkansas really suck, but they have some phenomenal dogs in Texas", that would make more sense to me


----------



## Bryan Colletti (Feb 16, 2007)

David is certainly not my intent to get under your skin. I try to remain objective and will relay to you the experiences I have encountered from MY perspective. In most circles, just being civilian already puts me in the "Dog House". I have not been to Tenn, have not met you or seen how you run things, I will not be so silly as to comment on that.

I will comment only on my direct experiences, and it is my experience that some officers with their dogs are very poorly trained, and supported.

You have to understand the path way to the knowledge I have gained. I work exclusively with officers that have NO funding, and or support. So If I don't have a dog readily available. Then the sources by which they find a dog and the peice mailing of training is scary.

Naturally you have a well established and funded program. The problems I encounter you don't see on your program, though I am damn sure you witness outsite your program. With officers having to scour the pounds and rescue leagues, because a boss won't help, then having the train the dog a little bit at a time.

What gets under your skin is exactly why I have trained and donated a couple hundred thousand dollars worth of dogs over the last 10-15 years.

Don't take what I say as a personal insult, look to the deeper picture and you'll see a systemic problem. I have just gone through about two weeks of working with two departments that needed A BOMB dog, I had two here for them, but I needed just a little funding for them. NO where near the price of a green dog. Their chief is now making them go the pounds and find a dog, one of the officers is currently in class with a GSD puppy handed to him from a rescue league. The officer has not much knowledge to understand why this puppy is a problem, he doesn't want to miss a chance to be a K-9 Handler. The trainer is getting paid and will do his best I suppose. 

Doing what I do David, I deal almost exclusive with these types of situations weekly, it's a unique and cynical view I have obtained. But, I hope shinning light on it from time time will bring support and funding to these guys.

Bryan


----------



## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Byran, I too work with departments such as you mentioned. Generally, while the officers in that department may lack training knowledge, they certainly have the dedication or they wouldn't keep trying. When I say "get under my skin", I've not been personally insulted. I assure you, insulting me in person is difficult, on a computer, nearly impossible. By the way, 14 (all single purpose) of the 42 dogs we have working came from shelters and rescues. When selected properly, a dog's origin just doesn't matter. There I agree, it is the training. A trainer that doesn't know what he's doing can't make a bad dog good, let alone a good dog good. I commend you for providing dogs to law enforcement. We do the same thing through our department. We assist them in obtaining a suitable dog, help them set up department procedures, issue them drug training aids and allow them to attend our 10 week school, free of charge. The only condition for our department to continue being their expert witness, they must document their training and attend the annual certification. All at no charge to the department. We don't want to see a poorly trained dog working either. Bad case law affects all of us.

DFrost


----------



## Hil Harrison (Mar 29, 2006)

Nice disscusion going on here by the way 

@ Brian..I dont personally deal with the US direct. I have dogs that come into the rehoming from members of the general public that turn out to be very good dogs and I give the owners advice to(if they wish) go check out one of the centers to see if their dog is good for practical work. A lot of the good dogs with ability to train and be darn good dogs are sitting as pets in houses of the general public. These dogs I refuse literally to rehome again as a pet all over again cos your just shoving the problem on someone else and the chance that the dogs gets returned too the previous owner is too high. Like I said to someone once "I dont do jojo dogs". They didnt like the answer because they were having a problem and wanted it solved straight away. 

@ Mike you said:
" Same breeding that a European has access to..... 10 pups, 2 of them went to me, a bunch got kept back by the breeder and will probably be sold eventually since he has a hard time claiming a dog as his "personal dog", if someone shows him some cash the dog is gone, and the rest all went to pet homes who are never going to go anywhere with the dogs. Its sad but thats the case with many working pups, they end up as pets and taken out of the working dog pool."

I totally agree here. One important point though IMHO, is that the good breeders here of the working dogs (and I mean the really good ones) will always make sure that their dogs are kept in the workingdog/training/sport circuit.
What I notice is that a lot of individual sporters wil breed a one off or two off litter with their own good male or female and sell an ammount of the pups out as pets. These are the dogs I get in the rehoming when they are 1-3 yrs old. They have such high drift, are sitting as frustrated pets instead of working and have one huge attitude. I just wish that these dogs with good workinglines would NOT be sold as pets to any darn newbie shep owner. It would make my job a lot more easier.

Dogs that come into the rehoming are "uncontrolable" for their owner at that point, but when they get trained in the right way the temperament and willingness to work gets sent in the right direction.

@ David..........there are a lot of darn good dogs too here in shelters that have been tested and are now working as narc dogs in the states. A while back we helped rehome 3 in a day from the same shelter. New owners are pleased with the dogs and the dogs are enjoying the work. They would never have gotten rehomed otherwise seeing as they had been there a very long time and no one wanted them and they couldnt go as pets.

I always believe...if the dog has a great ability to work for gods sake let it work but dont turn it into some couch potato cos its gonna backfire one day!


----------

