# Breeding GSDs in the USA



## Gillian Schuler

It has been a number of years since Germany sent, hopefully, good breeding dogs out to the USA. If I remember correctly, it occurred as far back as the 1980's.

Since I have been on this forum I have experienced threads from handlers importing GSD males, females and puppies from Germany.

I would like to know what has happened to these German imports and how they have been bred.

I have read recently posts of handlers still importing puppies from Germany.

Would appreciate a neutral answer to my neutral question. Sometimes one has to state this although it should not be necessary. I have no axe to kill.


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## Steve Estrada

There are some very fine dogs being bred here, problem being not enough good working homes. Other issue JMHO is sports people won't pay for a good dog, say $1500 for a pup highly bred from top working parents, same breeding as in Germany but they couldn't import a pup of that quality & ship for that price. I have a friend whose dogs I work with breeds level three dogs, FH2, kkl1 V conformation great scores from proven producers & they end up in pet homes! Sucks! Seen many quality pups wasted as far what they are bred for.
Not to correct you Gillian but we call it,"axe to grind" the killing part comes 
later


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## Gillian Schuler

I'm losing my English - thanks Steve!!


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## Britney Pelletier

Gillian Schuler said:


> It has been a number of years since Germany sent, hopefully, good breeding dogs out to the USA. If I remember correctly, it occurred as far back as the 1980's.


Is that really all that neutral of a question? Forgive me, but it sounds a bit loaded.. 

I read it more like, "Germany has not sent any good breeding dogs to the USA since the 1980's".

To be quite honest with you, I don't think Germany is really the pinnacle of superior working line GSDs anymore. I import most of my dogs from the Czech Republic and Belgium.


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## Steve Estrada

Gee & where do the Czechs & Belgian get their dogs? I have heard this before finding it quite amusing. My experience has been to look back three generations of all dogs to see if it's all one country or not. Three generations is 14 dogs must be from whatever country IMHO. \\/



Britney Pelletier said:


> Is that really all that neutral of a question? Forgive me, but it sounds a bit loaded..
> 
> I read it more like, "Germany has not sent any good breeding dogs to the USA since the 1980's".
> 
> To be quite honest with you, I don't think Germany is really the pinnacle of superior working line GSDs anymore. I import most of my dogs from the Czech Republic and Belgium.


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## susan tuck

Britney Pelletier said:


> Is that really all that neutral of a question? Forgive me, but it sounds a bit loaded..
> 
> I read it more like, "Germany has not sent any good breeding dogs to the USA since the 1980's".
> 
> To be quite honest with you, I don't think Germany is really the pinnacle of superior working line GSDs anymore. I import most of my dogs from the Czech Republic and Belgium.


Hi Brittney, It's not a loaded question. Gillian is asking about the dogs that were imported who's progeny (born and bred in the USA) are now old enough to have not only made their mark on the field, but to also have been used in USA kennels for breeding themselves. She's wondering if anyone knows how the breeding programs developed from these imported dogs have panned out.


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## Britney Pelletier

susan tuck said:


> Hi Brittney, It's not a loaded question. Gillian is asking about the dogs that were imported who's progeny (born and bred in the USA) are now old enough to have not only made their mark on the field, but to also have been used in USA kennels for breeding themselves. She's wondering if anyone knows how the breeding programs developed from these imported dogs have panned out.


I guess I don't understand the question.. I am genuinely confused.

What imported stud dogs were ever in this country long enough to really "make their mark" on any sort of breeding program?


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## Dave Colborn

Britney Pelletier said:


> I guess I don't understand the question.. I am genuinely confused.
> 
> What imported stud dogs were ever in this country long enough to really "make their mark" on any sort of breeding program?


 

Have GSDs that have been brought from Germany to the USA made any significant impact in breeding programs in the USA? How have the dogs been used in programs.

I think that was the initial question. I don't know the answer. But I am waiting with anticipation to find out....


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## susan tuck

I remember there was this big time famous high line dog imported mid or late 80s (I think). Named Yallo or Yello, I think he was a Weinerau dog. The skuttlebutt at the time (which I heard from people who saw the dog) was that he came off the sleeve when slightly pressured. 

I can't think of anyone else, but that could be because I have a killer headache.


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## susan tuck

susan tuck said:


> I remember there was this big time famous high line dog imported mid or late 80s (I think). Named Yallo or Yello, I think he was a Weinerau dog. The skuttlebutt at the time (which I heard from people who saw the dog) was that he came off the sleeve when slightly pressured.
> 
> I can't think of anyone else, but that could be because I have a killer headache.


Jello von der Wienerau I think maybe that's the dog I'm thinking of


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

I think many USA breeders' style of breeding is quite different from other countries. Many people have about 5 females from different lines and there's not much effort to create a line for themselves. Also, it seems like someone mentioned before that there are less avenues to test the progeny of these dogs. 
Many great pups ending up as family pets is not the way to form a line of great american bred dogs. Breeders should also try and keep females to create a line of theirs and use outside males to bring a little variety in the genepool i guess. 
And maybe if there were more k9 department/kennel affiliations so that breeders have a way of testing their progeny.

But really i dont see any problem with the present situation of working GSDs in the US. People always complaining they can't find workable GSDs but every time i'm seeing bad ass dogs in IPO training , then i wonder where these people are searching for their dogs


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## Steve Burger

I have a very limited view, and am a complete ignoramus when it comes to GSD lines. and what I see covers Western Canada, but club members of mine have imported some outstanding dogs from West Germany in the past 5 years. About 5 years ago, Lance and Gabi brought back 2 males and a female. Gabi's dog Yoschy vom Steintal, finished on the Podium at the Canadian Nationals as well as the world team, 3 years straight including a first place finish at 291 under Gunther Diegel in 2010. The year before it had placed 14th at the WUSV. Lance handled Zando Vom Kap Arkona to two 2nd place finishes at the Canadian Nationals, qualifying both times for the world team. The brood bitch Andra was bred 3 times to these dogs and once to another German import male. The point is that the dogs are continually imported and bred. These dogs were sold throughout Canada to pretty much all working homes. In Canada there have been many Korbelbach dogs that have had a huge impact on breeding programs. 

I also hear people talking about the rarity of seeing good GSD's but I see some pretty outstanding dogs, so it makes me wonder where people are looking. The dog (also imported from Germnay 2 years ago) that Gabi is working now is the most powerful dog I have ever seen.


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## Steve Burger

Britney Pelletier said:


> Is that really all that neutral of a question? Forgive me, but it sounds a bit loaded..
> 
> I read it more like, "Germany has not sent any good breeding dogs to the USA since the 1980's".
> 
> To be quite honest with you, I don't think Germany is really the pinnacle of superior working line GSDs anymore. I import most of my dogs from the Czech Republic and Belgium.


I don't know, the dogs that I have seen imported just in our club from one single broker have been pretty damn outstanding. Better than any Czech dogs I have seen.


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## Tiago Fontes

Steve Burger said:


> I also hear people talking about the rarity of seeing good GSD's but I see some pretty outstanding dogs, so it makes me wonder where people are looking. The dog (also imported from Germnay 2 years ago) that Gabi is working now is the most powerful dog I have ever seen.


Can you post the dog's pedigree? 


Thanks in advance


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## brad robert

Steve Burger said:


> I have a very limited view, and am a complete ignoramus when it comes to GSD lines. and what I see covers Western Canada, but club members of mine have imported some outstanding dogs from West Germany in the past 5 years. About 5 years ago, Lance and Gabi brought back 2 males and a female. Gabi's dog Yoschy vom Steintal, finished on the Podium at the Canadian Nationals as well as the world team, 3 years straight including a first place finish at 291 under Gunther Diegel in 2010. The year before it had placed 14th at the WUSV. Lance handled Zando Vom Kap Arkona to two 2nd place finishes at the Canadian Nationals, qualifying both times for the world team. The brood bitch Andra was bred 3 times to these dogs and once to another German import male. The point is that the dogs are continually imported and bred. These dogs were sold throughout Canada to pretty much all working homes. In Canada there have been many Korbelbach dogs that have had a huge impact on breeding programs.
> 
> I also hear people talking about the rarity of seeing good GSD's but I see some pretty outstanding dogs, so it makes me wonder where people are looking. The dog (also imported from Germnay 2 years ago) that Gabi is working now is the most powerful dog I have ever seen.


That sounds really promising and that there is some really lucky people in canada :-D


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## Thomas Barriano

brad robert said:


> That sounds really promising and that there is some really lucky people in canada :-D


Hey Brad

I don't think luck has anything to do with it. Lance and Gabi just know what they're looking for and have a broker/dealer that can supply it?  Too many people (in any breed) go for the flavor of the month. Years ago everyone wanted DDR dogs. Now Czech dogs are all the rage. A good dog is where you find it. I understand you can even find a decent GSD in North America? ;-)


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## Katie Finlay

Thomas Barriano said:


> Hey Brad
> 
> I don't think luck has anything to do with it. Lance and Gabi just know what they're looking for and have a broker/dealer that can supply it?  Too many people (in any breed) go for the flavor of the month. Years ago everyone wanted DDR dogs. Now Czech dogs are all the rage. A good dog is where you find it. I understand you can even find a decent GSD in North America? ;-)


Yep. I don't think anyone WANTS a to breed to a dog in America. Everyone thinks the dogs in Europe are better. Even the best producing dogs in America don't seem to get near as many breedings as a mediocre dog in Europe.


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## Thomas Barriano

Katie,

Yup, the dogs are better, the trainers are better, the seminar givers are better, the judges are better. They even have better sports in Europe (NVBK and KNPV)
The only thing we're better at is producing the SUCKERS that buy into the myth of European Canine Superiority ;-)


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## Tiago Fontes

Thomas Barriano said:


> Katie,
> 
> Yup, the dogs are better, the trainers are better, the seminar givers are better, the judges are better. They even have better sports in Europe (NVBK and KNPV)
> The only thing we're better at is producing the SUCKERS that buy into the myth of European Canine Superiority ;-)


 
Can you please explain why "European Canine Superiority" is a myth?


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## Thomas Barriano

Tiago Fontes said:


> Can you please explain why "European Canine Superiority" is a myth?


Sorry, I can't. If you believe it? Then buy all your dogs from Europe and go over there and train.


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## Tiago Fontes

I do...lol 

I live in Europe also... :-D


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## Steve Estrada

I think many USA breeders' style of breeding is quite different from other countries. Many people have about 5 females from different lines and there's not much effort to create a line for themselves. Also, it seems like someone mentioned before that there are less avenues to test the progeny of these dogs. "Quote"

I think Oluwatobi is correct. ( do you have nickname?) We do it differently because of our laws for one & the fact that breeders here are charged more for intact dogs. But personally I believe they have great clubs in which to test, observe for generations and obviously ability to place dogs in working homes. Yes females are the foundation to great lines, ask Stefan where his line emanated? I work with someone who has two females who have competed at BSP great bitches but do you think anyone notices? No! Bred to some awesome males. JMHO...


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## Katie Finlay

Steve Estrada said:


> I think many USA breeders' style of breeding is quite different from other countries. Many people have about 5 females from different lines and there's not much effort to create a line for themselves. Also, it seems like someone mentioned before that there are less avenues to test the progeny of these dogs. "Quote"
> 
> I think Oluwatobi is correct. ( do you have nickname?) We do it differently because of our laws for one & the fact that breeders here are charged more for intact dogs. But personally I believe they have great clubs in which to test, observe for generations and obviously ability to place dogs in working homes. Yes females are the foundation to great lines, ask Stefan where his line emanated? I work with someone who has two females who have competed at BSP great bitches but do you think anyone notices? No! Bred to some awesome males. JMHO...


Yep. It even seems like great dogs who were bred to a thousand times in Europe don't get bred at all when they're imported here. Because they're in the US now. And the US doesn't have good dogs :S


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## will fernandez

As well as the stud of the month club....


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## susan tuck

Steve Estrada said:


> I think Oluwatobi is correct. ( do you have nickname?) We do it differently because of our laws for one & the fact that breeders here are charged more for intact dogs.* But personally I believe they have great clubs in which to test, observe for generations and obviously ability to place dogs in working homes. Yes females are the foundation to great lines, ask Stefan where his line emanated?* I work with someone who has two females who have competed at BSP great bitches but do you think anyone notices? No! Bred to some awesome males. JMHO...


Agreed!


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## Thomas Barriano

Tiago Fontes said:


> I do...lol
> 
> I live in Europe also... :-D



Well that explains it don't it? ;-)
If I lived in Europe I'd buy my dogs there and train there too.
The point is, there are good dogs and good trainers all over and the idea that some North Americans have that the Euro dogs and trainers are better and pay outrageous shipping fees and prices and take the dregs of what you Europeans don't want, is RETARDED. Now if you're a dog broker or need a hundred dogs? Then Europe has the advantage. If you're just looking for one dog? Save your money, do a little research
and you can find a VERY nice dog pretty much any breed right here.


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## susan tuck

Thomas Barriano said:


> Well that explains it don't it? ;-)
> If I lived in Europe I'd buy my dogs there and train there too.
> The point is, there are good dogs and good trainers all over and the idea that some North Americans have that the Euro dogs and trainers are better and pay outrageous shipping fees and prices and take the dregs of what you Europeans don't want, is RETARDED. Now if you're a dog broker or need a hundred dogs? Then Europe has the advantage. If you're just looking for one dog? Save your money, do a little research
> and you can find a VERY nice dog pretty much any breed right here.


Thomas that was true in the beginning but actually for many years what was a very strong US dollar and the fact that there is much more depth of quality young dogs in Europe is why many very knowledgeable trainers/handlers continued to obtain their sport prospects in Europe. Not everyone wants to buy an 8 week old puppy and unfortunately here in the states young started un permanently screwed up dogs are few and far between and at a premium.

The simple truth is the USA does not have the depth of quality Europe has when it comes to seriously looking for a young dog with top sport potential.


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## Steve Estrada

susan tuck said:


> Thomas that was true in the beginning but actually for many years what was a very strong US dollar and the fact that there is much more depth of quality young dogs in Europe is why many very knowledgeable trainers/handlers continued to obtain their sport prospects in Europe. Not everyone wants to buy an 8 week old puppy and unfortunately here in the states young started un permanently screwed up dogs are few and far between and at a premium.
> 
> The simple truth is the USA does not have the depth of quality Europe has when it comes to seriously looking for a young dog with top sport potential.


I strongly disagree we even have generations of good dogs, example being dogs that Egon Vollrath brought in our in at least third generation of sports dogs. Again I believe that geographically our size is against us. CA & TX are almost as large as Europe & even there a good stud dog will not be used as much if he isn't in a geographic area that's available. They buy pups locally generally through a club much as we do here. I don't mean to be contentious I see it differently :-({|=


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## susan tuck

Steve Estrada said:


> I strongly disagree we even have generations of good dogs, example being dogs that Egon Vollrath brought in our in at least third generation of sports dogs. Again I believe that geographically our size is against us. CA & TX are almost as large as Europe & even there a good stud dog will not be used as much if he isn't in a geographic area that's available. They buy pups locally generally through a club much as we do here. I don't mean to be contentious I see it differently :-({|=


There are many more established working line kennels in Europe than there are here in the States, that's a simple fact. A kennel here might have 2 or 3 generations invested while in Europe we are talking 5, 6 and beyond, to say nothing of the relationships they have developed with one another.

My primary point is while it's true that in the beginning of schH in this country, uneducated Americans threw money at Europeans for their crappers, it is also true that for many years now, it made sense for those who compete at the upper levels to go to Europe for young dogs, considering the strength of the dollar, the depth of quality of the dogs to be had, and the good relationships they cultivated with their European counterparts.


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## Paul R. Konschak

Thomas Barriano said:


> Katie,
> 
> Yup, the dogs are better, the trainers are better, the seminar givers are better, the judges are better. They even have better sports in Europe (NVBK and KNPV)
> The only thing we're better at is producing the SUCKERS that buy into the myth of European Canine Superiority ;-)


I believe that there are many good dogs in the US but the size of our country cripples the breeding of these good dogs to each other. I do believe that the overall quality of dog training is better in Europe. Look at the results from this year’s World Championships. Has the US team ever won a team championship? I think it is normal to travel two hours each way to my dog club. In some European countries that is unheard of. I think the close proximity of dog clubs allows for more training which hopefully leads to better training.

http://www.working-dog.eu/meisterschaft-details/2254/22.-FCI-WM-2012

http://www.working-dog.eu/meisterschaft-details/2322/WUSV-WM-2012

http://www.working-dog.eu/meisterschaft-details/2041/Belgier-WM-2012


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## Steve Burger

Thomas Barriano said:


> Hey Brad
> 
> I don't think luck has anything to do with it. Lance and Gabi just know what they're looking for and have a broker/dealer that can supply it?  Too many people (in any breed) go for the flavor of the month. Years ago everyone wanted DDR dogs. Now Czech dogs are all the rage. A good dog is where you find it. I understand you can even find a decent GSD in North America? ;-)


What is funny is to hear Lance talk about how he acquired the brood bitch. I don't recall if it was the owner or the broker himself who kept talking about this bitch he wanted him to see. He put him off a few times saying they were not looking for a female. Finally he agreed to look at her and then said "shit I didn't want a female and now I have to take her". She is a tiny, but nasty little bitch with phenomenal and balanced drive. She is quite a little producer as well. I have a puppy from their last litter with Frank Novak's dog Felix, which is a litter mate to Gabi's dog Finn, as Finn was not yet titled. I wil try to find a link to a pedigree and post it.

Finn has not yet been bred. He is now an IPO2 and should have been bred 20 times by now. Outstanding dog. Off the charts power, drive and seriousness. She will be going for IPO3 with him in April and then competing with him.


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## Steve Burger

Steve Estrada said:


> I strongly disagree we even have generations of good dogs, example being dogs that Egon Vollrath brought in our in at least third generation of sports dogs. Again I believe that geographically our size is against us. CA & TX are almost as large as Europe & even there a good stud dog will not be used as much if he isn't in a geographic area that's available. They buy pups locally generally through a club much as we do here. I don't mean to be contentious I see it differently :-({|=


I think what Susan is talking about is the availability in Europe of young green dogs 12-18 months old. That is what is more difficult to find in the States.


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## Steve Burger

Tiago Fontes said:


> Can you post the dog's pedigree?
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance


 You can look it up:

Finn vom Metterursprung


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## Katie Finlay

Paul R. Konschak said:


> I believe that there are many good dogs in the US but the size of our country cripples the breeding of these good dogs to each other. I do believe that the overall quality of dog training is better in Europe. Look at the results from this year’s World Championships. Has the US team ever won a team championship? I think it is normal to travel two hours each way to my dog club. In some European countries that is unheard of. I think the close proximity of dog clubs allows for more training which hopefully leads to better training.
> 
> http://www.working-dog.eu/meisterschaft-details/2254/22.-FCI-WM-2012
> 
> http://www.working-dog.eu/meisterschaft-details/2322/WUSV-WM-2012
> 
> http://www.working-dog.eu/meisterschaft-details/2041/Belgier-WM-2012


See, I think it's the attitude of the people. I don't think geography has anything to do with it. People will send their bitches over or import stud dogs for breeding... how is that cheaper than shipping frozen semen from California to New York? It's not by any means. Shipping a dog is shipping a dog.

It's the fact that everyone here thinks that the dogs in Europe are better (as well as everything else) so they don't want to breed to dogs here. A LOT of people don't think our dogs are any good.


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## Paul R. Konschak

Katie Finlay said:


> See, I think it's the attitude of the people. I don't think geography has anything to do with it. People will send their bitches over or import stud dogs for breeding... how is that cheaper than shipping frozen semen from California to New York? It's not by any means. Shipping a dog is shipping a dog.
> 
> It's the fact that everyone here thinks that the dogs in Europe are better (as well as everything else) so they don't want to breed to dogs here. A LOT of people don't think our dogs are any good.[/QUOTE
> 
> 
> How many people do you know that ship their dogs to Europe to be bred? I personally only know of two people. How many people do you know that have shipped frozen semen across the country. I can only think of one. Most people I know breed to a dog that they own or a dog that is close to them so they can have a live cover more than once.


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## Steve Estrada

Right arm Paul! I shipped my bitch to Netherlands to be bred can I say expensive! I think there has been much ado about shipping prices for those that may not know. Usually you'll pay more for airfare than a young dog. Now you know three people that shipped. I would do it again if I couldn't find what I want here. I think a serious person/breeder would do the same......


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## Kadi Thingvall

Katie Finlay said:


> See, I think it's the attitude of the people. I don't think geography has anything to do with it. People will send their bitches over or import stud dogs for breeding... how is that cheaper than shipping frozen semen from California to New York? It's not by any means. Shipping a dog is shipping a dog.


Its more expensive to ship a dog from Europe than within the US. 400-500 to ship an average sized Malinois anywhere in the US, 1500+ to ship one from the US. But if you ship a stud dog here from Europe it's a one time cost, that results in as many breedings as you want. Vs shipping semen, which can cost as much as a dog in some cases. By the time you pay their stud fee, ship the semen, do the AI, etc you can have 2500-3000 into the breeding with no gaurantees of actually getting a litter.

I do think importing dogs for competition and/or breeding is MUCH more common then shipping a female to Europe to be bred, or importing semen.

I do think in general though people tend to use what is reasonably local (driving distance) to them for breeding. Which actually isn't much different then how they do it in Europe, it's just that driving distance gets them to a MUCH larger pool of dogs for breeding.

Reality is, when I talk to people from Europe and they start to get a real feel for what we are dealing with here in the US in terms of distances for training, trialing, breeding, buying pups, etc many tell me they wouldn't do it if they had to go that far.


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## Stefan Schaub

Steve Burger said:


> You can look it up:
> 
> Finn vom Metterursprung


like i all time say:a good dog comes out of a strong mother line!!!!


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## Katie Finlay

Paul R. Konschak said:


> Katie Finlay said:
> 
> 
> 
> See, I think it's the attitude of the people. I don't think geography has anything to do with it. People will send their bitches over or import stud dogs for breeding... how is that cheaper than shipping frozen semen from California to New York? It's not by any means. Shipping a dog is shipping a dog.
> 
> It's the fact that everyone here thinks that the dogs in Europe are better (as well as everything else) so they don't want to breed to dogs here. A LOT of people don't think our dogs are any good.[/QUOTE
> 
> 
> How many people do you know that ship their dogs to Europe to be bred? I personally only know of two people. How many people do you know that have shipped frozen semen across the country. I can only think of one. Most people I know breed to a dog that they own or a dog that is close to them so they can have a live cover more than once.
> 
> 
> 
> Or they just buy pregnant bitches.
> 
> The point is that everyone thinks everything in Europe is better. All of the people I know who have been and worked dogs in the states and Europe say the dogs here are just as good.
> 
> I think shipping and whatnot depends on breed as well. When you look at Malinois people who tend to breed good dogs to good dogs without over-analyzing the pedigrees it works.
> 
> In shepherds everyone wants to breed to the great Hund vom Germany because of the name and the pedigree more than the actual dog.
> 
> Just speculation on my part, but I haven't seen much to change my mind.
Click to expand...


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## Steve Estrada

You're right some people buy for the pedigree, but you'll almost always find a strong pedigree behind the top dogs, working specifically. If you're not a breeder the pedigree may not matter. Police dogs are sold not because of their pedigree, but we also have very little option to breed to those lines for improvements. JMHO


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## Paul R. Konschak

Katie Finlay said:


> Paul R. Konschak said:
> 
> 
> 
> Or they just buy pregnant bitches.
> 
> The point is that everyone thinks everything in Europe is better. All of the people I know who have been and worked dogs in the states and Europe say the dogs here are just as good.
> 
> I think shipping and whatnot depends on breed as well. When you look at Malinois people who tend to breed good dogs to good dogs without over-analyzing the pedigrees it works.
> 
> In shepherds everyone wants to breed to the great Hund vom Germany because of the name and the pedigree more than the actual dog.
> 
> Just speculation on my part, but I haven't seen much to change my mind.
> 
> 
> 
> So what is better in Europe to create the better overall trial results than the US competitors in the same trials. Is it the dogs, the training or a combination of both?
> Yes, I purchased a bitch in Germany and kept her there to be bred to a dog of my choice during her next heat. I bred to a nice dog that was an IPO II at the time, not the world champion. I wanted to have a Lupano's Duke linebreeding. This line breeding was not available in the US. I am very happy with the puppies and the homes that I will be placing them in. This still does not change the fact that the breeders near me only breed to their dogs or dogs very near to them. Do The people you know that have been to Europe and worked dogs have dogs that have been bred in the US for the last three generations. What Malinois breeders are you referring to. Look at the entries at the 2012 AWMA nationals and tell me how many dogs that were not imported or have an imported dog in three generations.
Click to expand...


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## Katie Finlay

Steve Estrada said:


> You're right some people buy for the pedigree, but you'll almost always find a strong pedigree behind the top dogs, working specifically. If you're not a breeder the pedigree may not matter. Police dogs are sold not because of their pedigree, but we also have very little option to breed to those lines for improvements. JMHO


I'm not saying the pedigree doesn't matter, it does!

But I feel like people are breeding pedigrees and names and not looking at the dogs in front of them.


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## Katie Finlay

Paul R. Konschak said:


> Katie Finlay said:
> 
> 
> 
> So what is better in Europe to create the better overall trial results than the US competitors in the same trials. Is it the dogs, the training or a combination of both?
> Yes, I purchased a bitch in Germany and kept her there to be bred to a dog of my choice during her next heat. I bred to a nice dog that was an IPO II at the time, not the world champion. I wanted to have a Lupano's Duke linebreeding. This line breeding was not available in the US. I am very happy with the puppies and the homes that I will be placing them in. This still does not change the fact that the breeders near me only breed to their dogs or dogs very near to them. Do The people you know that have been to Europe and worked dogs have dogs that have been bred in the US for the last three generations. What Malinois breeders are you referring to. Look at the entries at the 2012 AWMA nationals and tell me how many dogs that were not imported or have an imported dog in three generations.
> 
> 
> 
> Are all of the best dogs in the nationals? Do all of them have equal trainers and handlers? There's way too much to read into that, IMO. No scenario is exactly the same.
> 
> Didn't the US kick ass at the KNPV championships one year?
Click to expand...


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## Katie Finlay

More people train in Europe than the US as well. So the likelihood of those trainers is higher.


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## Tiago Fontes

Katie Finlay said:


> Paul R. Konschak said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are all of the best dogs in the nationals? Do all of them have equal trainers and handlers? There's way too much to read into that, IMO. No scenario is exactly the same.
> 
> Didn't the US kick ass at the KNPV championships one year?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've never heard of the US competing in KNPV championships...but I could be wrong.
> 
> When was that?
Click to expand...


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Britney Pelletier said:


> Is that really all that neutral of a question? Forgive me, but it sounds a bit loaded..
> 
> I read it more like, "Germany has not sent any good breeding dogs to the USA since the 1980's".
> 
> To be quite honest with you, I don't think Germany is really the pinnacle of superior working line GSDs anymore. I import most of my dogs from the Czech Republic and Belgium.


I can assure you Britney that this is a neutral question. I have read that Germany has sent some good working dog GSDs to the USA.

Why the suspicion??


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Katie Finlac said:
quote
But I feel like people are breeding pedigrees and names and not looking at the dogs in front of them.
unquote

Maybe this is so??


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Let's face it - why should it really bother me? I buy my dogs in Switzerland and Germany. 

What the USA does with its imports should actually leave me cold.

However, *I am a member of this forum* and sometimes I wonder about the dogs that have been imported over many years and would still be interested to know how many of these dogs have been bred from and have produced good to excellent working litter. After all it has been a number of years since the first working dogs were imported.


----------



## Steve Estrada

Gillian, isn't it always cold over, up there  haven't had the pleasure to visit yet but very high on my bucket list....


----------



## jamie lind

Gillian Schuler said:


> Let's face it - why should it really bother me? I buy my dogs in Switzerland and Germany.
> 
> What the USA does with its imports should actually leave me cold.
> 
> However, *I am a member of this forum* and sometimes I wonder about the dogs that have been imported over many years and would still be interested to know how many of these dogs have been bred from and have produced good to excellent working litter. After all it has been a number of years since the first working dogs were imported.


Imo the majority of american consumers are so far from the farm they wouldn't buy from a breeder that knows what they are doing. And the consumers that are serious about dogs wouldn't buy from a breeder just starting out that doesnt have a reputation forproducing good dogs. In my case I was able to buy from a breeder that moved to the us with a reputation for producing good dogs.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Seems like most American dog buyers (not just GSD's) are easily impressed with a slick website and a line of BS. They don't do any actual research and then whine on all the lists when the "working dog" either is a dud or is too much to handle ARGGGGGG


----------



## Stefan Schaub

Thomas Barriano said:


> Seems like most American dog buyers (not just GSD's) are easily impressed with a slick website and a line of BS. They don't do any actual research and then whine on all the lists when the "working dog" either is a dud or is too much to handle ARGGGGGG


You hit the point!!!

IN the past there have been many good males imported to the states, some of these dogs have produced more than good in germany,the sv did not accept frozen sperm,so no chance to safe these gene pool of these dogs,but here it is possible!!!but why does no one have frozen of Ernst Weinbergblick or Olex de Valsory,Aik Haus Cindy and a few other!!!


----------



## susan tuck

Stefan Schaub said:


> You hit the point!!!
> 
> IN the past there have been many good males imported to the states, some of these dogs have produced more than good in germany,the sv did not accept frozen sperm,so no chance to safe these gene pool of these dogs,but here it is possible!!!but why does no one have frozen of Ernst Weinbergblick or Olex de Valsory,Aik Haus Cindy and a few other!!!


I can tell you with regards to Olex you would have to ask the man who owned him in the USA, Jonathan approved very few breedings to outside bitches.


----------



## Rick Mattox

As for Olex, and more so Jonathan,the reason you couldn't get any AI breedings is because Jonathan owes a lot of money to the sperm bank holding the Olex semen. I've tried to get a breeding done with frozen from Olex. Had to track down Jonathan"s father and he told me the story. Unfortunately Jonathan has a substance abuse problem. We all know what problems that can lead too. I wish Jonathan the best and hope things turn around for him. Then who knows maybe he can get a few breedings done.


----------



## will fernandez

Not to be a prick..just a realist.... if the sperm bank needs to get paid...it may be a worthy investment if someone else paid it off


----------



## Steve Estrada

Great minds think alike, I just PM'd Rick with the same suggestion as it would be great for breeding programs. Even if we collectively paid for it. I'm willing to chase that thought or help doing so......


----------



## Steve Estrada

Most definitely, great source!


----------



## Stefan Schaub

will fernandez said:


> Not to be a prick..just a realist.... if the sperm bank needs to get paid...it may be a worthy investment if someone else paid it off


i would pay it,if it fits!!price to amount of spearm.


----------



## will fernandez

Stefan Schaub said:


> i would pay it,if it fits!!price to amount of spearm.


Lets go....


----------



## will fernandez

Steve Estrada said:


> Great minds think alike, I just PM'd Rick with the same suggestion as it would be great for breeding programs. Even if we collectively paid for it. I'm willing to chase that thought or help doing so......


Lets go


----------



## Nicole Stark

Seems to me if you guys or anyone else wanted this dogs semen it would be pretty easy to get what you wanted. I wonder what qualifies as "quite a lot of money". I don't know anything about the dog but it seems more than a few are interested in his seed.


----------



## Joby Becker

I wonder if someone paid the fees if they would even need the owners consent if he is that far in arrears? or if they considered it abandonded...


----------



## Stefan Schaub

who knows a phone number or email address from him or his dad or sperm bank


----------



## Nicole Stark

If I were one of the interested parties, it being abandoned would be the thing I'd be most concerned about. I would think though that on their behalf there might be a vested interest in holding onto samples that get unclaimed. If someone thought enough of the animal to collect/store it then someone might come along later and be willing to settle the debt and use it. I mean how much space can a few straws take up?

For whatever reason this "mystery" has my interest.


----------



## Stefan Schaub

Nicole Stark said:


> Seems to me if you guys or anyone else wanted this dogs semen it would be pretty easy to get what you wanted. I wonder what qualifies as "quite a lot of money". I don't know anything about the dog but it seems more than a few are interested in his seed.


great dog,perfect character,crazy drive,clear headed and have produced great. had one litter with him (g-litter) and more than happy.all a-stamp,8out of nine titled and 6 with breed survey. for me one of the dogs with a perfect pedigree on both sides


----------



## Nicole Stark

That's certainly encouraging. He was bred more than once I presume and if so were the results as favorable? Yes, I can look this up but dialogue is useful too for others who may be interested.


----------



## Katie Finlay

I've got some bills that could be paid!

As for when the US did well in KNPV, I don't remember. I could be wrong.


----------



## Stefan Schaub

he produced with a lot of different females out of different lines real good. he was the perfect mix out of Nick(dad)and Yoschy(mother line)and have produced this typ dog.


----------



## Stefan Schaub

Katie Finlay said:


> I've got some bills that could be paid!
> 
> As for when the US did well in KNPV, I don't remember. I could be wrong.


only if you can produce even good than Olex


----------



## Nicole Stark

That is also encouraging. If you find his semen, sounds like you could find yourself some stock holders pretty easily.


----------



## will fernandez

Katie Finlay said:


> I've got some bills that could be paid!
> 
> As for when the US did well in KNPV, I don't remember. I could be wrong.


You know there is a real good off color joke there...


----------



## Thomas Barriano

What are you waiting for Will?


----------



## will fernandez

Stefan Schaub said:


> i would pay it,if it fits!!price to amount of spearm.


something along those lines


----------



## Stefan Schaub

Rick Mattox said:


> As for Olex, and more so Jonathan,the reason you couldn't get any AI breedings is because Jonathan owes a lot of money to the sperm bank holding the Olex semen. I've tried to get a breeding done with frozen from Olex. Had to track down Jonathan"s father and he told me the story. Unfortunately Jonathan has a substance abuse problem. We all know what problems that can lead too. I wish Jonathan the best and hope things turn around for him. Then who knows maybe he can get a few breedings done.


can you give me his full name address or phone number


----------



## Rick Mattox

I had checked into maybe paying off the debt but you would need Jonathan's signature as well. I remember that Olex was collected at the Scottsville Animal Hospital in KY. Don't remember the name of the Bank though. Steve I spoke with the lady who was trying to help Jonathan at one point. Unfortunately she has cut all ties with him at this point and hasn't spoken with him in years. She'd posted some good info on the comments section of his ped on the PDB. 

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/comments.read?dogid=122373


----------



## Rick Mattox

Stefan I PM'd you.

Rick


----------



## Nicole Stark

Seems to me if people are that interested in this dog, then some additional investigative work might be worthwhile. Not to be blunt but money talks and it's king in the world of an addict. Find him and I am sure on one of you guys can figure out what the price of his signature is worth to you. Then work on settling the debt. Course that's assuming that it's still in storage. I am sure that this could be found out as well - if it's not already known.


----------



## Rick Mattox

Found the Storage facility. International Canine Semen Bank in KY. I spoke with them before and they told me that they will keep the sperm even if the bill isn't paid but LEGALLY they couldn't discuss anything with anyone other than the client.


----------



## Nicole Stark

Sorry about that Rick, I didn't happen to notice that info was in the link you provided. Did they happen to at least give you some idea of what they charge annually so you could get a rough idea about how much is owed? Not to get into your business but maybe it's time to check back with his father and track him down. As long as Jonathan is still alive, I am fairly confident you could get this settled in short order.


----------



## clifton anderson

I remember when Lewis Malatesta was in the country, went to see him work, and remember Paul telling me he had been in country for year and he could count on one hand how many people had bred to him. Now Lewis was a dog that you needed a compatible bitch for best results( as with all breedings), but he was a wonderful resource in this country for a year and people showed little interest. And history shows this dog is in the pedigrees of many strong dogs, I love to see him in pedigrees for prospective police candidates.


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Steve Burger said:


> I have a very limited view, and am a complete ignoramus when it comes to GSD lines. and what I see covers Western Canada, but club members of mine have imported some outstanding dogs from West Germany in the past 5 years. About 5 years ago, Lance and Gabi brought back 2 males and a female. Gabi's dog Yoschy vom Steintal, finished on the Podium at the Canadian Nationals as well as the world team, 3 years straight including a first place finish at 291 under Gunther Diegel in 2010. The year before it had placed 14th at the WUSV. Lance handled Zando Vom Kap Arkona to two 2nd place finishes at the Canadian Nationals, qualifying both times for the world team. The brood bitch Andra was bred 3 times to these dogs and once to another German import male. The point is that the dogs are continually imported and bred. These dogs were sold throughout Canada to pretty much all working homes. In Canada there have been many Korbelbach dogs that have had a huge impact on breeding programs.
> 
> I also hear people talking about the rarity of seeing good GSD's but I see some pretty outstanding dogs, so it makes me wonder where people are looking. The dog (also imported from Germnay 2 years ago) that Gabi is working now is the most powerful dog I have ever seen.


----------



## Tracey Hughes

Right now two of my favourite GSDs from Germany are in the US standing at stud for the next year. Outlaw v Leipheimer Moor and Ike von der Donauvorstadt. Hope they get used!


----------



## clifton anderson

I like both dogs also, in terms of Outlaw, Elmar Mannes is known for strong dogs!


----------



## Lisa Clark

Tracey, where is Outlaw standing? Also, don't you have an Ike son?


----------



## Robley Smith

Willie Pope has Outlaw here in Spokane, Washington. I really like him.


----------



## brad robert

Robley Smith said:


> Willie Pope has Outlaw here in Spokane, Washington. I really like him.


Is he a harder/tougher type ?? he is from sid vom haus pixner known for throwing hard types???


----------



## Robley Smith

To me he seems very driven, with a good balance of prey and fight drive. Understand though that I am fairly new, so I went ahead and asked Willie your question.

He wrote, " He is well balanced in his work..Always a willing worker, you get that in those lines. Takes pressure in training and is happy to work."

That seemed pretty well put to me, and goes along with what I have observed. He comes out on the field very eagerly, both in obedience and protection. Durring obedience he is very attentive to Willie, like there is no one else on the field. Lots of drive and very eager. Same drive durring protection. I have had him on the sleeve a bit under Willie's direction. He comes into the blind quickly and gives a strong hold and bark, he grips full and hard and is unphased by the stick. He wears me out pretty quickly. lol

The dog hasn't really needed anything. He is a finished product, and there wasn't much to work on. Just he and Willie learning to work together.


----------



## brad robert

Thanks Robley for taking the time to answer  he sounds like a nice dog and he has some nice breeding behind him.


----------



## Stefan Schaub

Quardes Staatsmacht is now here!!After two years real successful on high level he have come home. Quardes was Place 6 at the last BSP with high protection. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaxmqxmrCAo 

Real dog with perfect pedigree!!!


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Stefan Schaub said:


> Quardes Staatsmacht is now here!!After two years real successful on high level he have come home. Quardes was Place 6 at the last BSP with high protection. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaxmqxmrCAo
> 
> Real dog with perfect pedigree!!!


Well, watching Quardes took me to Ultra's video. She can make you forget about the boys.


T


----------



## brad robert

Stefan Schaub said:


> Quardes Staatsmacht is now here!!After two years real successful on high level he have come home. Quardes was Place 6 at the last BSP with high protection. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaxmqxmrCAo
> 
> Real dog with perfect pedigree!!!


Super news!!!

Stefan what can you tell us about the sires line of this dog what sort of dog are they etc (in particular the sire and g,sire).And Quardes seemed to have accomplished alot in a short period of time i take it there a fast maturing type as well??


----------



## Tiago Fontes

Stefan Schaub said:


> Quardes Staatsmacht is now here!!After two years real successful on high level he have come home. Quardes was Place 6 at the last BSP with high protection. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaxmqxmrCAo
> 
> Real dog with perfect pedigree!!!


 
Very well trained dog! 

There is a lot of conditioning in that guarding... 


Merry Christmas


----------



## brad robert

Tiago Fontes said:


> Very well trained dog!
> 
> There is a lot of conditioning in that guarding...
> 
> 
> Merry Christmas


Tiago i really dont see the point of your statement?? Yes he is a well trained dog he is in the BSP you wouldnt take a crap trained dog would you?? But did you see the grips on that dog they were excellent and full and his long attack was also superb.

Your statement seemed(forgive me if im wrong) to be trying to take aim at the dog being all training and not genetics yet the gentics seem pretty clear???


----------



## Stefan Schaub

Tiago Fontes said:


> Very well trained dog!
> 
> There is a lot of conditioning in that guarding...
> 
> 
> Merry Christmas


may be you should say high quality dog with great training.

come over,stay at my house and learn the difference between good and bad. feel free to wear a suit or what ever and test him,the last one i told that have try it with a jacket with terror and he tooked him than on his unprotect waist down.

some people talk about good dogs,some people can train good dogs and other people can breed them.come and figure out


----------



## Paul R. Konschak

brad robert said:


> Tiago i really dont see the point of your statement?? Yes he is a well trained dog he is in the BSP you wouldnt take a crap trained dog would you?? But did you see the grips on that dog they were excellent and full and his long attack was also superb.
> 
> Your statement seemed(forgive me if im wrong) to be trying to take aim at the dog being all training and not genetics yet the gentics seem pretty clear???


Brad

The dog is very nice and I would be very proud to own him but the grips were not all full in the video that was posted.

Paul


----------



## brad robert

Paul R. Konschak said:


> Brad
> 
> The dog is very nice and I would be very proud to own him but the grips were not all full in the video that was posted.
> 
> Paul


i would be proud to own him too but the grips looked good to me and for the sport he is in.not to mention where the target is moving.Considering in IPO where i think there is an element of luck and good striking ability of a dog to hit a moving target i wouldnt consider those weak grips at all.


----------



## Stefan Schaub

Paul R. Konschak said:


> Brad
> 
> The dog is very nice and I would be very proud to own him but the grips were not all full in the video that was posted.
> 
> Paul


tell me where you have not see a full grip. he get 98 points from one of the best judges,also judge/instructor for the police for ever.

sometimes i wonder about some people here. this dog shows close to a perfect work,with real grips,speed and fight.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Tiago Fontes said:


> Very well trained dog!
> 
> There is a lot of conditioning in that guarding...
> 
> 
> Merry Christmas


 
I was wondering about this too. What do you see besides training and conditioning and how can you know what you see is based on training and conditioning as opposed to what the dog brings to the table? Are your comments based on the video or something you know from another source about the dog's training and conditioning?

T


----------



## Steve Estrada

Isn't it what the dog has that is brought to the table through training. If he doesn't have it you can only bring so much through training. I have yet to see a dog do well without training.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Steve Estrada said:


> Isn't it what the dog has that is brought to the table through training. If he doesn't have it you can only bring so much through training. I have yet to see a dog do well without training.


 
Especially since you are talking about a dog sport venue. There has to be training and conditioning. I guess what it comes down to is whether you can exhibit that level of performance based on training/conditioning alone. If not, can you assume a certain amount of genetic capability based on what you see. Unless you saw the raw dog, do you really know whats training/conditioning and what's genetics. Or you test the dog outside of the trained context??? I guess only Tiago can explain what he means. 

T


----------



## Paul R. Konschak

Stefan Schaub said:


> tell me where you have not see a full grip. he get 98 points from one of the best judges,also judge/instructor for the police for ever.
> 
> sometimes i wonder about some people here. this dog shows close to a perfect work,with real grips,speed and fight.


Stefan do you think the grip during the attack after the long bite is full? Do you think the bark and hold should be scored excellent? What are you wondering about? The dog is very nice and I would be very proud to be his owner, trainer, or breeder but that does not change what I observed on the video you posted.


----------



## Gillian Schuler

I started this thread because I often wondered why the USA GSD breeders had not managed to develop a line breeding from the dogs they had imported. There I couldn't put it blunter. At first however I wanted to see the reactions.

When I read the negative to lukewarm evaluation of Quardes I have to wonder what people on here are expecting from a dog, in this case a GSD.

The commitment, the power, the desire to dominate the helper was there. To achieve 98 points at BSP is not peanuts. *Come on Paul Konschak, show us better under similar conditions.*

Sometimes, I have to wonder. I couldn't recognize the helper or the judge from the video but I will research or Stefan Schaub will enlighten me.

To know that his father is Agent von Wolfsheim is one thing, to see his action is proof that this is a dog to be reckoned with is another.

Wakey wakey :wink:

BTW, many a tribune onlooker has seen more than the judge. who is entitled to ask the helper about the grips. It's the same the world over. The onlooker sees more than the official judge.


----------



## Stefan Schaub

Paul R. Konschak said:


> Stefan do you think the grip during the attack after the long bite is full? Do you think the bark and hold should be scored excellent? What are you wondering about? The dog is very nice and I would be very proud to be his owner, trainer, or breeder but that does not change what I observed on the video you posted.


yes the grip is full,bark and hold he lost a point.so what.he was pick fron the judge best dog in protection,for me high value because he knows the difference between real dog and point dog.new gsd special is out also their he have get rated as best dog in protection,special escape,grip speed.

remember the tread about Luebeck where you have start with me about his pedigree. let see what you can do on a dog,post some movies or what ever.get so tired of these people who knows all,can do all but never show something.do not know what you observed but would like to know your experience at all,as breeder trainer helper handler or what ever.come on show off it is pay day and you can prove now how good your comments are.i promise you for every movie what you post i do this week a movie with a first time dog handler in ob and protection with dogs out of my breed my training and my passion to do it


----------



## Stefan Schaub

Paul R. Konschak said:


> Brad
> 
> The dog is very nice and I would be very proud to own him but the grips were not all full in the video that was posted.
> 
> Paul


here you talk "but the grips were not all full " now it is one.

what do you try??


----------



## Tiago Fontes

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Especially since you are talking about a dog sport venue. There has to be training and conditioning. I guess what it comes down to is whether you can exhibit that level of performance based on training/conditioning alone. If not, can you assume a certain amount of genetic capability based on what you see. Unless you saw the raw dog, do you really know whats training/conditioning and what's genetics. Or you test the dog outside of the trained context??? I guess only Tiago can explain what he means.
> 
> T


 
Look at the dog's guarding... There is a momentum for starting the B&H, then notice how the dog stops guarding the decoy when the handler approaches to look at the handler... That is not a serious guard to me... That is a methodical dog. 

I could be wrong, though. 


Regards


----------



## Sue DiCero

Agree on B&H, but look at the escape bite. He is blocking the helper; helper does well on trying to drive the dog, but the dog in mostly in control here . That is the point of the escape exercise.....

Good on the helper work. Focus is on correct work.

Too many times, when the dog blocks like that, the helper will go over the dog and head/neck goes back over spine, in order to control the drive.


----------



## Tiago Fontes

I have nothing else to point. However, the guarding, shows me the dog's spirit...


----------



## Sue DiCero

You can teach the guard. I like the fight.....


----------



## Mark Sheplak

My question has more to do the rules than the dog as the behavior has been conditioned in via training.

How can a dog get a 98 with passive guarding the right paw up in the air which is a universal sign of submission? See 2:24 in the video. This also happened after the long catch, see 3:01. This is the sort of thing that is usually seen due to handler conflict in the basic position during OB. I have never seen it in protection during "guarding".

Stefan, any insight?


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Sue DiCero said:


> Agree on B&H, but look at the escape bite. He is blocking the helper; helper does well on trying to drive the dog, but the dog in mostly in control here . That is the point of the escape exercise.....
> 
> Good on the helper work. Focus is on correct work.
> 
> Too many times, when the dog blocks like that, the helper will go over the dog and head/neck goes back over spine, in order to control the drive.


Agree.


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Sue DiCero said:


> You can teach the guard. I like the fight.....


Agree again!


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Mark Sheplak said:


> My question has more to do the rules than the dog as the behavior has been conditioned in via training.
> 
> How can a dog get a 98 with passive guarding the right paw up in the air which is a universal sign of submission? See 2:24 in the video. This also happened after the long catch, see 3:01. This is the sort of thing that is usually seen due to handler conflict in the basic position during OB. I have never seen it in protection during "guarding".
> 
> Stefan, any insight?


 
For me the B/H is a trained exercise. If you've ever been "held" by a dog, they don't do all that jumping and barking anyway. The paw lift for me is in relationship to the handler. They've probably had some serious control conversations regarding when you get to engage and when you don't. Regardless of what these dogs are doing, they must hold a line of communication to the handler and are conditioned to orient to the handler as the handler steps into basic position--or so it seems. The mnost dramatic about this is Javir Talka Marda. I guess the best train continuous focus regardless of where the handler is and until he gives the "fuss" command. I see dogs literally listening to their handler's footsteps in watching these videos. I don't think totally tuning the handler out is a sign of less than serious guard. It certainly doesn't win the BSP.

T


----------



## Stefan Schaub

I d not know anything about signs for submission, but i know about real dogs.

i know also about people who talk there hole life about serious dogs but never had one,never worked one or never have see one in person. people make comments about 98 points on the highest quality trial for gsd in ipo. 

it does not matter if Quardes,Javir or who ever,these dogs have quality to show this performance on a high trial.i have read some arguments on a other topic,how great this dog (rus)is but have only poor training,train a dog to the top and than see what left over.


----------



## will fernandez

You can take some of the tiger out but you cant put it back in...great point Stephan..

Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

will fernandez said:


> You can take some of the tiger out but you cant put it back in...great point Stephan..
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk 2


 
Exactly!!! Maybe the dog's performance is the reflection of the handlers ability to tame the tiger instead of whether there is a tiger there in the first place.

T


----------



## Mark Sheplak

Stefan Schaub said:


> I d not know anything about signs for submission, but i know about real dogs.
> 
> i know also about people who talk there hole life about serious dogs but never had one,never worked one or never have see one in person. people make comments about 98 points on the highest quality trial for gsd in ipo.
> 
> it does not matter if Quardes,Javir or who ever,these dogs have quality to show this performance on a high trial.i have read some arguments on a other topic,howDo y great this dog (rus)is but have only poor training,train a dog to the top and than see what left over.


It wasn't a shot at you or your kennel's dog (I thought that I was pretty clear about that), just a serious question about what the judges are looking for in the high level trials. I honestly thought that they were going to start deducting for passive guards.


----------



## susan tuck

Mark Sheplak said:


> It wasn't a shot at you or your kennel's dog (I thought that I was pretty clear about that), just a serious question about what the judges are looking for in the high level trials. I honestly thought that they were going to start deducting for passive guards.


I'm confused. When you say "passive guard" if you are talking about the silent guard as opposed to the active guard, I must take issue. Silent guards done right are NOT passive. Note the intensity, note the way the dog looks right in the helpers eyes, note how the dog is waiting for the helper to move not watching the sleeve, not looking for his handler, how Quardes guards after the escape bite, after the long bite. This is a very intense and serious dog. The fact that he holds his foot up is a quirk I have seen in many strong dogs, has nothing to do with a dog being submissive to the helper and actually I believe shows a dog concentrating on the task at hand - if it says anything at all, maybe it says nothing. In any case, look at the dogs demeanor, this is not a submissive dog, not by a long shot.

There are dogs who have been taught the silent guard because they are almost ready to cut and run, or they look around for their handler, or they want to just sit there, this is very obvious and this is what the judges are talking about when they say they are now going to start deducting points.....of course they should have been deducting for these kinds of dogs all along, and some have, now they all will...hopefully.

I have seen MANY dogs who's hold and bark and who's guarding is what others think is sooooo showy - jumping around - almost play bowing too, but these dogs are not intense and are not serious, many are working in prey, which is fine, but it's completely different than what you see in this dog.


----------



## Richard Ramirez

Stefan Schaub said:


> yes the grip is full,bark and hold he lost a point.so what.he was pick fron the judge best dog in protection,for me high value because he knows the difference between real dog and point dog.new gsd special is out also their he have get rated as best dog in protection,special escape,grip speed.
> 
> remember the tread about Luebeck where you have start with me about his pedigree. let see what you can do on a dog,post some movies or what ever.get so tired of these people who knows all,can do all but never show something.do not know what you observed but would like to know your experience at all,as breeder trainer helper handler or what ever.come on show off it is pay day and you can prove now how good your comments are.i promise you for every movie what you post i do this week a movie with a first time dog handler in ob and protection with dogs out of my breed my training and my passion to do it


 You people who make comments without seeing the dogs or their progeny are not using common sense. We have a very talented breeder,trainer,handler and helper in Stefan Schaub. He also is a very honorable man! I've seen some of Stefan's progeny in beginner's hands.Great genetics go a long way...........Please post a video as I want to see some more of Stefan's up and coming dogs and handlers.


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## Mark Sheplak

susan tuck said:


> I'm confused. When you say "passive guard" if you are talking about the silent guard as opposed to the active guard, I must take issue. Silent guards done right are NOT passive. Note the intensity, note the way the dog looks right in the helpers eyes, note how the dog is waiting for the helper to move not watching the sleeve, not looking for his handler, how Quardes guards after the escape bite, after the long bite. This is a very intense and serious dog. The fact that he holds his foot up is a quirk I have seen in many strong dogs, has nothing to do with a dog being submissive to the helper and actually I believe shows a dog concentrating on the task at hand - if it says anything at all, maybe it says nothing. In any case, look at the dogs demeanor, this is not a submissive dog, not by a long shot.
> 
> There are dogs who have been taught the silent guard because they are almost ready to cut and run, or they look around for their handler, or they want to just sit there, this is very obvious and this is what the judges are talking about when they say they are now going to start deducting points.....of course they should have been deducting for these kinds of dogs all along, and some have, now they all will...hopefully.
> 
> I have seen MANY dogs who's hold and bark and who's guarding is what others think is sooooo showy - jumping around - almost play bowing too, but these dogs are not intense and are not serious, many are working in prey, which is fine, but it's completely different than what you see in this dog.


Thanks for the response, silent instead of passive, sorry for using the incorrect terminology. I thought that there was a change in the rules to begin to emphasize active guarding like, 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GN_X46Fi9H8 

Both dogs scored 98s. Vastly different guarding behaviors.


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## susan tuck

Mark Sheplak said:


> Thanks for the response, silent instead of passive, sorry for using the incorrect terminology. I thought that there was a change in the rules to begin to emphasize active guarding like,
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GN_X46Fi9H8
> 
> Both dogs scored 98s. Vastly different guarding behaviors.


Doesn't matter whether a dog does an active or a silent guard, both are equally correct, what matters is the intensity.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

susan tuck said:


> Doesn't matter whether a dog does an active or a silent guard, both are equally correct, what matters is the intensity.


Agreed. I'm much more worried about the silent one staring a hole through me with his mouth closed.

T


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## Sarah ten Bensel

Folks talk a lot about the studs. Are there bitches out there in the USA that are producing well? Is it not that side of the pedigree as critical or more important than what the stud can provide? Understandably they cannot produce the numbers of dog as the stud in a lifetime but surely over span of time- and betterment for the breed- there must be females out there leaving their mark her in the USA. 
I have seen Ultra von der Staatsmacht in training as an adult (actually met her when she was a wee pup) Very serious bitch, yet clear-headed from my limited perspective. That said she is still producing (quite well) and I dont know personally if there are great-grand kids of hers out there. My point being what other females are making, or have a made an impact in the USA. Hard-pressed to believe an excellent bitch would be exported.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Sarah ten Bensel said:


> Folks talk a lot about the studs. Are there bitches out there in the USA that are producing well? Is it not that side of the pedigree as critical or more important than what the stud can provide? Understandably they cannot produce the numbers of dog as the stud in a lifetime but surely over span of time- and betterment for the breed- there must be females out there leaving their mark her in the USA.
> I have seen Ultra von der Staatsmacht in training as an adult (actually met her when she was a wee pup) Very serious bitch, yet clear-headed from my limited perspective. That said she is still producing (quite well) and I dont know personally if there are great-grand kids of hers out there. My point being what other females are making, or have a made an impact in the USA. Hard-pressed to believe an excellent bitch would be exported.


I'm more partial to bitches and more interested in them than males as a rule. I firmly believe in looking the the great male or female that had a fantastic dam. As I said, came across a video of Ultra and I could instantaly forget about the boyz. One of the most intriguing aspects of the Staactmacht's dogs along with what Stefan brings to table regarding knowldege and appreciation of GSDs, is the emphasis on the mother/bitch line. 

T


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## Tracey Hughes

My vote for a bitch would be Kiss, she is SchH 1 now has had one litter in Germany and is in Texas currently. She is being bred to Ike vs Donauvorstadt shortly, so a nice linebreeding there and some strong females in these dogs backgrounds.

http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/171508/Kiss-von-der-Donauvorstadt?new_lan_en


Elmar Mannes working Kiss as a young dog.

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=Xp12Nd4ftvU&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DXp12Nd4ftvU


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## Brian McQuain

susan tuck said:


> The fact that he holds his foot up is a quirk I have seen in many strong dogs, has nothing to do with a dog being submissive to the helper and actually I believe shows a dog concentrating on the task at hand - if it says anything at all, maybe it says nothing. In any case, look at the dogs demeanor, this is not a submissive dog, not by a long shot.
> .


 
Yup. This dude http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dog.html?id=744214 holds his foot up as well, while he's giving me and everyone else around the finger. Hardly a submissive dog.


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## Harry Keely

Dont hink importing is the answer for the GSD any longer, its a breed in my eyes thats long been gone now for awhile, sad to say, but the great in that breed are few and far inbetween for me, or have. I can count the good ones on one hand I think I have seen. JMO


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Brian McQuain said:


> Yup. This dude http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dog.html?id=744214 holds his foot up as well, while he's giving me and everyone else around the finger. Hardly a submissive dog.


 
Well, I don't think its read as submission but conflict. It has nothing to do with submission to the helper. I see it as the dog checking himself and that he does what is expected of him even though given the opportunity he would choose to do something else--like bite the guy.

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Harry Keely said:


> Dont hink importing is the answer for the GSD any longer, its a breed in my eyes thats long been gone now for awhile, sad to say, but the great in that breed are few and far inbetween for me, or have. I can count the good ones on one hand I think I have seen. JMO


What makes one good or great to you?

T


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## susan tuck

Zidane v Haus Sevens is another great who was imported to this country but the gal who purchased him used him almost exclusively with her own bitches, rarely approved any outside breedings, but I couldn't tell you why, though I did hear unsubstantiated rumors.


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## brad robert

What are your thoughts on studs being used on outside bitches and the bitches not producing well or being of lower quality then the stud owner would like without him or her knowing and then the pups get out there and people bag the crap out of them and the stud dogs value drops?? Also there seems to be a lot of emotional connection with dogs and people take it persoanlly if others dont like what he produces and its just hard to take emotion out of things like this for some people


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## susan tuck

brad robert said:


> What are your thoughts on studs being used on outside bitches and the bitches not producing well or being of lower quality then the stud owner would like without him or her knowing and then the pups get out there and people bag the crap out of them and the stud dogs value drops?? Also there seems to be a lot of emotional connection with dogs and people take it persoanlly if others dont like what he produces and its just hard to take emotion out of things like this for some people


Dogs like Olex and Zidane proved themselves as studs long before they were imported, but once they were imported they were almost never approved to outside bitches. If a dog never produced quality, regardless of the quality or lines of the bitches he was bred to, then he would earn that reputation, but that's not the case with these dogs.


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## brad robert

Cool that makes sense.I still cant believe you guys had olex over there and he just wasnt bred that much its a crying shame.


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## Harry Keely

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> What makes one good or great to you?
> 
> T


The equivalent of a mali / ds I guess is the only way to put it to ya


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Harry Keely said:


> The equivalent of a mali / ds I guess is the only way to put it to ya


 
I thought so. Thank goodness there are different breeds.

T


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## Harry Keely

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I thought so. Thank goodness there are different breeds.
> 
> T


I have seen the GSD's I talk of, its just been awhile since I have seen one or a new one I havent seen yet


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