# Hector



## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Unfortunately it has transpired that Reggie has some physical faults that precludes him from my work program and breeding program so I require a replacement. 

Did a bit of an ad hoc evaluation of Hector today. 
9.5 months old and basically a green dog in all aspects of work.
He was one of the pups I kept back purely for hunting. 
He has done not much really so far except chase bunnies and critters so everything you see here is new to him, except the truck, the grass and the air he is breathing. 
Harness, equipment, other humans, cars, unknown dogs being trained in the background, even collar are all basically new to him. 
I have only taught him sit and a recall before this, didn't even play engagement games.
He's Chucky's (paterdale) hunting buddy, so he usually just goes in the truck to the land for a bit of mooching then back in the truck and home again, or out on the fire tracks pounding miles for conditioning. 
Him and Chucky have been purposefully left pretty feral as all I really need from them is a solid recall (which they both have). 
He's seen the flirt pole once or twice before and as a small pup I did some grip evals, which he did good at.

I think he has some potential, to do something a bit more structured and maybe replace Reggie. 

I've already set my mind to the idea but opinions would be interesting for me and apreciated.

Thanks

Vid:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYEloZJFUMs&feature=youtu.be


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Sorry to hear that. It really sucks big time!

It's hard for us to compare the two seeing Reggie at a very nice level of training so your judgement is still the top shelf.

I can give you my thoughts on what I see in hector.

Very biddable, decent drive, needs to learn how to keep focused on you a bit more. He seem to be distracted to the ground easily at this early point in training. 

Time and your skills should take care of that.

You kept him for hunting.

Have you don ANY hunting with him?

I never had a terrier that could be taught man tracking once it was hunted on game. 

I had a Border Terrier and a JRT that were excellent on a man track BUT I had done natural earthwork with both before I taught tracking. 

They could never stay on a man track if a critter distracted them or had crossed the track. 

Start out with man tracking with no hunting and slooowly proof off of critters and it may work.

BIG suggestion!

Never compare Hector to Reggie. Two different dogs and may require adjustments with methods to your goals.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> Very biddable, decent drive, needs to learn how to keep focused on you a bit more. He seem to be distracted to the ground easily at this early point in training.


Honestly, that's one of the things that stood out with him. I like it, but that's through my filter. Here, he'd be a good fit. 

I wasn't paying attention much to the specific work Matt was doing with him, I was more interested in how he interacted with Matt and responded within his surroundings. Certain dogs are just right exactly as they are and don't need to be messed with by having them perform silly tricks or play foolish games. Regardless, he looks capable enough and Matt will do what ever he wishes to. My opinion certainly isn't going to influence the outcome either way. 

Matt I like this dog and hope to see more of him regardless of what you end up doing with Hector.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Thanks for the replies peeps 

Aw man I hadn't thought about problems with tracking. I shall have to watch that, he has done alot of hunting, not much catching but loads of hunting stuff up. Good call dude, I shall work out a solution if this proves to be a problem.
I was pretty pleased with the amount of focus i got out of him, I was expecting way less, lol.

Nicole: 

"Certain dogs are just right exactly as they are and don't need to be messed with by having them perform silly tricks or play foolish games."

Are you suggesting I just leave Hector as a hunting dog here? It's a bit early in the am and I have not had a cup o tea yet


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Matt, is this dog a terrier of some sort? If not, I wouldn't worry much about the concern for cross over with this dog. Just a gut feeling I have with him. My mastiff was hunting for 2 years before I started tracking with her. She moved into FST and cadaver work with exceptional ease. That dog of yours, from what little I have seen is just the way I like 'em - which is why I said (more so as if he were mine kind of way), I'd enjoy what he brings and expand on that in every possible way I could. 

Reggie was/is a different dog. He seemed perfectly happy doing what you guys were doing together. Is he staying on with you or going elsewhere? Hector (to me) looks like he'd come along for the ride but he strikes me as a slower maturing dog, more independent, and one that might have some surprises in store for you later on.

As far as Hector goes, you kept him on exclusively for hunting? Reggie, presumably was/is used for hunting and for furthering your breeding program correct = as in your prime choice from the litter for that express purpose? I look at these two and see a bit of something that seems strangely familiar to me so I am curious, what stood out about Reggie and what has changed to make you re-evaluate and consider this specific dog?


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I just realized that I posted a bunch of half completed thoughts. Regardless, I like hunting dogs. I also enjoy watching dogs do what they tend to do best and in a relatively unadulterated form. That's what I meant when I said, he's just the way I like 'em and why, this one I'd leave be.

Reggie? Different dog. Different story.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Nicole Stark said:


> Matt, is this dog a terrier of some sort? If not, I wouldn't worry much about the concern for cross over with this dog. Just a gut feeling I have with him. My mastiff was hunting for 2 years before I started tracking with her. She moved into FST and cadaver work with exceptional ease. That dog of yours, from what little I have seen is just the way I like 'em - which is why I said (more so as if he were mine kind of way), I'd enjoy what he brings and expand on that in every possible way I could.
> 
> *He has Bull terrier in him but it is not as expressed as in Reggie.*
> 
> ...


" Is he staying on with you or going elsewhere?"

Reggie is going elsewhere. There is a fella coming today to view him, he seems sound enough, has had dobermans in the past but became disillusioned due to their many health and temperament problems.
He is after a dog to be a companion/work/guard/alert dog for his smallholding. Reggie will thrive in such a position IMO he can move at his own pace and enjoy a relatively stress free life.

"As far as Hector goes, you kept him on exclusively for hunting?"

Hector was kept for hunting yes and as a back up in case something like this occurred. The peanut was kept back for the same reasons but she washed out on account of her reluctance to pick up.

The main event:

"I look at these two and see a bit of something that seems strangely familiar to me so I am curious, what stood out about Reggie and what has changed to make you re-evaluate and consider this specific dog?"

Could you expand on See something strangely familiar?

Reggie has some structural issues which I have been keeping an eye on and hoping they were just growing pains. 
He has a sensitive back which was why he is so sensitive to leash pressure in tracking. I did find a possible cause for that but it escapes me now, I'll find it again and update later.
Reggie paces- alot. He paces in heeling, he paces, tracking he paces just going for a lead walk. I know this can be habitual but you have to get him really moving for it to go away. As a result he "rolls" as he walks, this will lead to him breaking down over his life, don't want to do that to him with repetitive heeling. I am only short and my stride is not massive so if it is habit its getting worse in his heeling. I could spend ages teaching him a collected heel but then I am just hiding something which ethically I am not willing to do.
Reggies feet are not the best, when he was younger they were really flat, I did loads of stuff on uneven surfaces, down the beach, gravel tracks, in the woods they improved but they are still not ideal. Again this over time with loads of heeling, jumping etc repetitively will cause him problems.

This one was the deal clincher.

I noticed Reggie's jumping was a bit poor. He doesn't tuck at all and lands very front heavy. At first i thought it could be his relatively straight front assembly and the fact it is positioned very forward but my researches led me to his teeth. I hadn't bothered looking at Reggies Teeth at all tbh as his mum and dad have perfect dentition. I was reading about structural faults in agility dogs and this highlighted that dogs with undershot jaws can have difficulties jumping due to their jaw placement altering how they carry their neck, leading to unfluid jumping, front heavy jumping and shitty timing on jumps, even a reluctance to jump. All things I had noticed in Reggie.

"Bullshit" I thought but opened his mouth to see and lo and behold his jaw is undershot.
Maybe coincidence not sure but an undershot jaw completely rules him out of breeding as I am attempting to breed "pinschers" by the very definition of the word, Reggie is not a Pinscher.

Major kick in the teeth, scuse the pun, and I am devastated TBH.
I have spent the last week totally deflated.
Everything about Reggies temperament I love, it's perfect for what I am aiming for and I feel do well in tracking, OB and bitework, which means the temptation to breed him will get the better of me. Starting off breeding my own type of pinschers with a dog with and undershot jaw is a pretty dumb idea. Yes it may not manifest regularly but it will be there lurking to make itself known at some point in the future.

What stood out about Reggie:

His head, his ears, his general build (in terms of muscle) his size. He is calm and concentrated, he has strong and enduring drives with thresholds on the higher side. His temperament is bombproof, environmentally strong, socially perfect, his work ethic is absolutely amazing, he is biddable, direct-able and obedient, he is super game (no surprises there really looking at his mum and dad) confident and cock sure, he is going to be a machine in bitework when he matures and a number of people have suggested I get him into LE.
He is called "Reggie" after a male Doberman I owned who was exactly like him. I have an awesome bond with this dog and have done from early doors. 
Mad thing is he sat under my radar for the first couple of months of his life till Kath pointed him out to me and said you should keep that one.
I tried him out and she was correct.

When I embarked on my breeding project I promised myself there would be zero compromise. I don't want to go down the route which has all but destroyed the doberman as a genuine working dog. This is my first test of that promise and I cannot break that promise to myself at the first hurdle. 
I could completely change my plans and say, "hey I have no standard to work to yet, fck it i'll just have dogs with undershot jaws" after all there are breeds with undershot jaws that work perfectly well, but I am after creating pinschers and so I'm not gonna do that.

I'm sat here waiting for the guy to turn up and fighting to call it off 

Reggies teeth:



Reggie not working, you can get a good idea of size, build and his big noggin in this vid.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYYA3XBb3GE


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Matt Vandart said:


> Could you expand on See something strangely familiar?
> 
> _Sure, my mastiff and her sister and now everything you said below makes sense to me. For example, I wondered why there was hesitation from Reggie on the harness. It was something that stayed with me about that. I also remember you mentioned his feet. Separately it was obvious to see that physically, he is an impressive specimen but not quite ideal to me. He didn't impress me as all that well balanced.
> 
> ...


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Cool could you expand on "the dentition doesn't surprise me to hear either" as it was a massive surprise to me, lol


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I saw a dentist that expanded his practice to structural anatomy, biomechanics, and something else I don't remember. What you said about Reggie's feet all the way up to the under shot were things he explained to me on my first visit with him. He demonstrated the lack or change in strength just by the jaw placement and stated that teeth are far more important in physical anatomy/capacity than people realize. In his words, it starts from the mouth/head and works its way on down.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Awesome  today is also a school day, only one doesn't really learn anything useful in school


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Different kind of school here. Some say we already know all there is to know. Resistance is what suppresses the truth. Anyway...

_You said: What stood out about Reggie:

His head, his ears, his general build (in terms of muscle) his size. He is calm and concentrated, he has strong and enduring drives with thresholds on the higher side. His temperament is bombproof, environmentally strong, socially perfect, his work ethic is absolutely amazing, he is biddable, direct-able and obedient, he is super game (no surprises there really looking at his mum and dad) confident and cock sure, he is going to be a machine in bitework when he matures and a number of people have suggested I get him into LE._

Hector fits in here somewhere, so what is your assessment of him?


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Hector has good level of drive from what i have seen in his hunting. 
His threshold for prey stim is lower.
His threshold for defensive pressure is lower than Reggies but still higher than the above.
He is more edgey than Reggie though so will have to be on the lookout for nerve/confidence issues.
His structure is very good, awesome feet, good balance, look at him moving.
He is very rapid.
He is smaller framed than Reggie.
His head is on a par with Reggie in terms of size but because of the different shape looks weaker.
His lower jaw is weaker, his dentition is like his dads though, perfect scissor bite.
He still has a good grip.
He is smaller than Reggie.
He'll condition well and I expect be a bit heavier than his mother, way lighter than his dad though. He's only just under 10 months he's got at least a year of bulking out to do, he'll probs reach 35kg.
He is not as confident as Reggie in himself.
He is environmentally sound.
He is socially acceptable but can be edgey as stated above. He has aggressed at someone who loomed over him already, he had the option to escape but decided to move forward instead so how he dealt with it was good, the fact he felt threatened is maybe more concerning and hopefully due to immaturity. 

He is currently showing very little possession which Reggie was big on (one of the reasons I kept hector for hunting)
He's pretty game. 
He is quite a calm dog just kicks about in his kennel when not out. He goes wild when he gets let out for about half hour then settles down nicely. 

Unknown how biddable he is or what his work ethic is like, he's good on a mooch but he's in it for himself really eh, as like I said he is basically ferral atm, he's been living with a terrier so who knows what habits he has picked up, lol

The one advantage he has over Reggie is with his prey drive being lower threshold I can do loads of the foundation decoying whereas with Reggie it was going to take pressure to bring out a defensive drive, I don't want to be doing that myself eh.

I have a few vids of Hector from throughout his life if you would like to see them but obviously these are mostly mooching and just general life vids, not training vids.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Matt Vandart said:


> His structure is very good, awesome feet, good balance, look at him moving.
> 
> I have a few vids of Hector from throughout his life if you would like to see them but obviously these are mostly mooching and just general life vids, not training vids.


Thanks for the detailed response. I've been watching him, his physical balance is very nice. And it's those type of videos (general life) that interest me more than those I see showing the results of finely crafted dog training. Mostly, I'm interested in the dog, not so much the training.

Most of what you said about him is evident in the videos you of him on your channel, some of it is obviously not. 

The bitch to my sister was all like Reggie, but IMO she fizzled out. What you saw is what you got. It didn't go anywhere but backward after a certain point. Mine kept building and just when I thought I had seen it all, she'd do something else to impress or surprise me. Sure, she's in it for herself. She always has been. I didn't initially know what to do with a dog like that. But, I put my ego and personal desires about what I thought she should become aside and waited, watching her all the while.

Where I fit in was to teach her ways in how to make that work for her. So we worked together checking and figuring stuff out until she developed into what I have referred to her as a SHTF type of dog. 

Who knows where Hector will go from here for you, but with a dog like Sali being your favorite ever and Reggie ticking a lot of those same boxes I imagine its a ... well, just a different experience with this dog. I can't really put words to it other than saying there really is no comparing the two. Hector looks like an experience dog to me, time will tell you what you don't yet know about him.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Couldn't have put it better myself. The only thing I would add is Sali is in a league way above both these dogs.
I'm deffo not fooling myself that in one litter I have produced some awesome working dogs but hopefully a step in the right direction. All the owners of the other puppies are happy with their pups so that's half the battle won already.

Dunno if you have seen these vids but I'll chuck them up if anyone is interested:

Hector 7-8 weeks old evaluation test:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yy0uYF9RpoU

Hector and peanut ad hoc test at similar age:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeMnrfBo7kw

Unfortunately I didn't vid Reggies test which is a real shame as I would like to have seen what he was like at age again. There was another pup like Reggie that I know I did test, a bitch which in hindsight I should have kept. I'll have a look at that I think.

Edit:
This bitch, different structure, same temperament, gave her to one of my best friends, lol.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpXvG8cFGeg


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I'll take a peek at the vids in a bit. 

But about that bitch, if when the time comes she turns out to be the one you believe has what it takes, then I implore you to not make the same mistake that was made with mine simply because you don't have her in your possession. What was lost in a single decision is truly regrettable. God damned shame if you ask me. 

I had nothing to lose and he had everything to gain. 

I did everything I said I would with her and more. I've seen his posts about her on line and repeat his own statements, not my own perceptions about what I believe to be true. I lament over this because I accepted the dog as a gift, with that I assumed an enormous amount of responsibility in taking her as far as I could. Despite her being his back up plan, I counted upon being able to have the option of eventually working with something in the future that was directly related to her. I no longer have that option and my dog is just a few months shy of 10. Time is no longer on my side. 

This, of course, isn't about my dog but rather about you stepping into something that as I said from the beginning, appeared similar/familiar to me. Nevertheless, I trust you will make the right decision when the time comes.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

It's all cool, the bitch is in good hands and she has said she isn't neutering her so the genetics will still be available. That's why I gave her to one of my best friends  I told and her Reggie got washed out, her reply without hesitation "she can come back for a litter in the future if that need arises"

All is groovy in my world


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

It was in mine too. I was told the exact same thing, almost verbatim. Just sayin'.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Bummer, it's her dog at the end of the day, we'll see what happens. If the bitch turns out good she will want to breed from her anyway, either way is cool. Hector is gonna be cool anyway so like I said all is groovy


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I recall those videos!

As to the bite issue, it's not uncommon in the Bull terrier.

One of my brothers had one and I showed him in the breed ring.

Single focus that could actually go into a glassy eyed trance when he got excited and block out EVERYTHING else. 

Great if that could be captured and controlled but it was pretty spooky when it would happen.

We once had to bounce rocks off his head to turn him around when he went after a flock of geese in the water.

It took a few direct hits to get his attention. :-o


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Hahahaha! yup that's bull terriers to a T.

Reggie had a bit of that in him, Hector doesn't. He's got starey eyes but more in the way of a collie.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

My brother and I used to go to tryouts when the St. Louis Muny Opera had parts for dogs.

We both had dogs in stage shows at different times.

Out of 62 dogs that tried out for the part of Bill Sikes BT in the stage show of Oliver Twist there were 62 BTs that showed up.

The person running things said right off the bat that the dog would have to work off lead.

ALL but SIX dogs left and brother's BT got the part because he was the only one to hold a sit and do a recall. ](*,)

Brother and I both belonged to the St. Louis BT club so I've seen hundreds of them.

I don't like to use the word stupid when talking about breeds OR dogs but the BTs I've know were less then stellar when it came to training. :lol:


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> I don't like to use the word stupid when talking about breeds OR dogs but the BTs I've know were less then stellar when it came to training. :lol:


I thought the reason for that might be obvious Bob. They look like rats. Only booger eaters and ass sniffers like rats. :twisted:


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Nah BT's are clever, I think they are possibly the only breed who's excuse of "they are too clever to train" is actually true


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Matt Vandart said:


> Nah BT's are clever, I think they are possibly the only breed who's excuse of "they are too clever to train" is actually true


I was being facetious. Can't speak for BTs but I do know what you say is true.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Nicole Stark said:


> I thought the reason for that might be obvious Bob. They look like rats. Only booger eaters and ass sniffers like rats. :twisted:



HEY! I never ate a booger in my life! :grin:

There is a radio station KSHE here in St. Louis that had a pig wearing sunglasses as it's mascot. 

A fried visited my brothers house and his BT was in the crate.

He snorted and grunted a LOT when he wanted out to play.

The lady looked at the dog, looked at my brother, looked at the dog again and, dead serious asked "Is that the KSHE pig"? :-o ](*,) :grin:


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

As Bobby Hill would say, "I LOVE that PIG."

Matt's Hector shows slightly piggish ways. I like that a little in a dog. Course, when I think of "piggish" I can't help but think about the weekly confessions my dad told me about. Once, as a child, he confessed that he had piggish thoughts. 

So Bob, about the BT. What do you attribute the "less than stellar when it comes to training" to? Did anything work with them? I am relating this to the Hector thread since he was said to have BT in him. I noticed a slight indifference and maybe deliberate confusion in some of the interactions Matt had with him from early on to current. Like I said, I get it and it doesn't bother me to see that, but since the topic came up I thought it was a "conversation we need to have".

Can you tell I have been watching the news a bit?


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

> I noticed a slight indifference and maybe deliberate confusion in some of the interactions Matt had with him from early on to current


Could you expand on this please Nicole?


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Yes, a sentence should always end with a period.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

lol.

indifference and deliberate confusion from me or the dog?


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Him. Ten characters.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Nicole Stark said:


> As Bobby Hill would say, "I LOVE that PIG."
> 
> Matt's Hector shows slightly piggish ways. I like that a little in a dog. Course, when I think of "piggish" I can't help but think about the weekly confessions my dad told me about. Once, as a child, he confessed that he had piggish thoughts.
> 
> ...


Some yrs ago Budwiser had a BT in many of it's commercials and the tag line was that the dog was a "Party animal".

That pretty well sums it up. They can have a party all by them selves.

I showed him in the breed ring and my brother show him in OB, same as we did with brother's Kerry Blue.

You never knew when the BT was going to get excited over who know what and just dissapear in it's own thoughts in the OB ring.

Both of us had Kerrys and they were all terrier but MUCH more easily trained.

Mine, Rocky was in the top ten terriers and the top Kerry blue in the country in AKC OB.

Brothers was HIT (High in trial) over aprox 200 other aall breed dogs.

When I kept him when I was showing him in the breed ring he was a huge PIA. 

The wife opened the fridge and the BT kept trying to push in to get freebys I guess.

Wife pushed him back, dog didn't move, wife tapped him on the head with the fridge door, dog started wagging his tail. 

Wife got pissed and slammed the dog on the dog's head. dog went goofy and started ran around the kitchen wagging his tail like crazy and acting like a big puppy trying to get her to play more.

Wife said "Don't ever bring home another one of these.

Example #2

Dog tried to get a horse to play with him when we took him to a friends place.

Horse kicked dog, dog got more excited about getting the horse to play.

Horse bit the dog and you would have thought the dog was having an orgasm the way he started running around the horse, play bowing and leaping in the air, all the time wagging that tail like he was going to take off.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

They are awesome aren't they. Similar thing happened with Bumpy and a bunch of marsh horses, I had to get in there and drag her out in the end. She was enjoying her game of trample the puppy to death, how she survived I have no idea.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Nicole Stark said:


> Him. Ten characters.


Yes I concur with that.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Those stories are interesting, for whatever reason they remind me a bit of both of my dogs. 

Once in shallow water the boat drug bottom, standing up front like one of them always did, the dog was thrown out and then ran over by the boat. I look back to see her doing what looks to be a summersault that she somehow rolls into a run. She looked like she was having a blast despite what had just happened.

Are BTs deceptively clever? From the things you guys have said it sounds like they are. Almost as if they show up, know their a big deal, and pretty much do what they want. They also seem to have an unusual relationship and communication style with their owners. Is that right or am I getting the wrong impression?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Matt Vandart said:


> BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
> 
> They are awesome aren't they. Similar thing happened with Bumpy and a bunch of marsh horses, I had to get in there and drag her out in the end. She was enjoying her game of trample the puppy to death, how she survived I have no idea.


I can honestly say I easily visualize that. :lol: :lol:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Nicole Stark said:


> Those stories are interesting, for whatever reason they remind me a bit of both of my dogs.
> 
> Once in shallow water the boat drug bottom, standing up front like one of them always did, the dog was thrown out and then ran over by the boat. I look back to see her doing what looks to be a summersault that she somehow rolls into a run. She looked like she was having a blast despite what had just happened.
> 
> Are BTs deceptively clever? From the things you guys have said it sounds like they are. Almost as if they show up, know their a big deal, and pretty much do what they want. They also seem to have an unusual relationship and communication style with their owners. Is that right or am I getting the wrong impression?



Your right on that. 

I also believe other attributes they have is a complete lack of fear, a pain tolerance off the charts and a total sense of humor.

If you get one be sure not to let is see a bear. 

Guaranteed the dog will try to drag the bear home. 

It may be beat up and limping terribly.......but the dog will be fine and wagging it's tail like crazy. :-o:lol: 

Matt, did yours have an appetite for just about anything? 

My brother's got in the Kitchen cabinets and ate two boxes of cereal, boxes and all.

He swallowed a rubber ball the same size of a golf ball....and passed it on through at the vets office.

Open their mouth and you can damn near see their tail. It's like looking in a deep well. 

Ate a tupperware bowl that had nothing in it.

He also got hit by a car, got rolled down the street and came up all skinned up and wagging his tail.

The girl in the car was practically in shock and brother kept telling he the dog was fine.

This was after he noticed the girls car had it's grill mashed in.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Nah that's sounds about right from my perspective


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Bob re: eating anything.

Bumpy ate 2kg of table salt took her to the vet, he was like we will keep her in overnight but don't hold your breath. In the morning she was up and playing with all the vet techs like nothing had happened and she has so far lived a further 11 years lol.

Nicole as requested: an everyday non training event vid, only difference is usually on ground like this Hector and Digga (and/or) Effy would be on slips with Chucky/Luna snuffling about and lifting stuff out of the cover theoretically to slip the catch dogs on. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sjq-leIW6To&feature=youtu.be


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Thanks Matt, I appreciate your doing that.

About 90 seconds into it I saw what I expected to see from him, but I'm going to finish watching it anyway. I might see something I don't expect to. 

And, I have. I didn't expect to see him chasing a train or car. He can flat out move, though I imagine if he had a greater roach in his topline he might be even faster yet.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

His call off when chasing that train was outstanding!

Solid as a rock!


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Thanks Bob  he's pretty cool

Nicole what did you see in the first 90seconds?


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Matt Vandart said:


> Nicole what did you see in the first 90seconds?


 Not really sure how to answer that except to say: enough. But if I said something else, what would it matter? Nothing. 

It's all groovy. \\/


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

I'm intrigued please humor me


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I shall. If you hang onto him, expect to hear from me later on. Fair enough?


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

lol oki dokis


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

My thoughts on the 90 second mark.

Obvious head check, down the hill, strong focus on one spot then kicks it into gear. 

Much of his running looked like a lot of my terriers crittering.

No mater how far he ranges he's still well connected to you because of his many check ins or fly buys with you.

That can be a problem only if it keeps him from focusing on scent work on whatever he's trained on to follow.

In spite of outstanding recalls throughout the video, Loosing focus over trains and such could also lead to problems down the road.

I think, as he is he's a very nice, biddable dog.

I'm also looking forward to see what he develops into.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Cool 

I agree his prey overrides his brain it will probs end up with him being dead. Heard of a few dogs that have ended up dead running into farm equipment, roads etc will have to work on that I rekon.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Yes that was on thing that stood out to me as well. Not ideal.

Matt regarding my message there are some differences and Bob summed all of them up well. I am curious to know how much of that is age related.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

It's early doors yet all he's done is mooch about and get slipped, he knows nothing different. This was his first time out alone, usually have chucky/Luna or Digga/effy or (The Peanut when she was still here)with him ar all of them.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

What is this mooch and slip you write about? Why do you think his being alone makes a difference? I assume that's what you meant by mentioning it. I haven't found its made any difference w my dogs. I usually keep pairs and find that they are relatively indifferent to one another and essentially the same whether the other is present or not.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

"Mooch about and get slipped"

Having hunted with a number of Brits over the yrs I read that to mean..

"Just enjoying a casual walk and letting my dog run off lead". 

An Aussie would say..

"Going on a walkabout and letting my dog play tag with some sort of bug that wants to bite and kill him".
"I hope the dog finds a crock small enough for my 8 yr old son to wrestle because the little bloke is reaching manhood and almost ready to teach a King Brown how to heel." 

An Alaskan would say..

Turn the %#$&@*&! dog loose! There's a bear on my ass.....again! 

8-[ Sort of! :lol: :wink:


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Bob you are correct. Basically mooching is going out with a "pack" of dogs and letting them get on with it, they may come across something and get a run on it, may catch it or not.

Slipping as I refer to it, but others do it differently (see vid below) is like a mooch but only the terriers are free. So Chucky/Luna will scuttle about in the cover looking for stuff and then they drive it out into the open then the catch dogs are "slipped" i.e you release the "slip" lead and these dogs are then free to chase and catch whatever the terriers have lifted.

I do it this way if the terriers are likely to lift something which is illegal to hunt here, so foxes, badgers, hares, deer etc basically everything other than bunnies and rats.
That means if for instance they drive a fox out some cover I don't slip the catch dog/s and he runs off to his freedom. If they lift a bunny then the dogs get slipped.
Now for instance if you were someone who wasn't a law abiding citizen and they lifted some illegal game and you really wanted to have hare for dinner you can slip one dog to wear the hare down and then slip the other either if the dog drives the hare close to you or the other dog starts lagging, thus you have a fresh dog to ensure you are gonna eat that night.

Another more normal definition of slipping a dog can be seen here where these dudes are coursing for hare (illegally by the way) 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCXPKRsyKwo

Edit: oh yeah, the reason why being on his own makes a difference is usually the terriers will be working the cover so he doesn't really know what he is doing yet and also interaction with me rather than the other dogs is also unusual for him so I think he did pretty well transitioning from that scenario. You can see this at one point where a bunny hops into the cover up ahead and he is not aware of it (it's not going fast) Luna or Chucky wouldn't have missed that and would have driven the bunny back out to the open then the game is on for Hector. 
I'l do a vid out with Hector and the terriers out for a mooch maybe later today, you'll see the difference, he will stick to what they are doing as he knows if Chucky/Luna go into a thorn bush there is a possibility a bunny is gonna come out pretty sharpish (hilariously followed by a squeeling terrier who can't keep up with the bunny).


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I've sen hounds and Lurchers worked the same way here on coyotes.

When I did terrier work it was strictly earth work.

Is the Country Alliance still around over there?


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

I'm not sure Bob, I am no more than a casual hunter, I would say yes though the hunting scene is probably stronger now than pre-ban somewhat through necessity for some.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Good to hear!


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> An Alaskan would say..
> 
> Turn the %#$&@*&! dog loose! There's a bear on my ass.....again!
> 
> 8-[ Sort of! :lol: :wink:


Maybe. 

Though, I'd never sacrifice a dog in lieu of a bullet that costs $1.50-$3.00 a round. Unfortunately, these dogs I have now aren't particularly compatible in this environment. I have to always be vigilant on behalf of the Dutch. 

The mastiff, well her age (time) is what changed the game. Nothing else did it, but it changed everything. We've been together for a while and through a lot. I'd be willing to go out with or for her. I've already stepped up to do that once and would again.

You never know, we might just go out together. Last weekend, there was this ****en rogue beaver that was following her up the river. There's been issues with beaver and dogs up here over the years. They come up under them and well … it's a problem. The dog cannot defend itself in water against an attack like that. 

I've never seen anything like it. That damn bastard followed her up river, avoiding attempts by 6 other people to redirect it, only for it to come out of the water up on to shore and return back down the river after the dog who by this time had been retrieved and tethered to the boat.

I've had a strange summer with animals. First, the white headed robin and two sets of offspring that curiously ended up in my backyard, one flying to rest upon my open window sill. Then there was the random female mallard, born just last year that decided to or was forcibly separated from family and then kept company with humans. I wondered all winter long how she fared. And, there she was last week, she had coupled and had ducklings. 

How that happened is beyond me. I thought if they weren't part of a family to begin with their mortality rate was astronomical. Not only had she defied that odd by migrating but she had mated and managed to produce little ones. The weird thing is that these ducklings were like her too. Apparently, accepting of people as they did not swim away/dive or even move as the boat moved up river and toward them.

WTF...:-k


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

That is indeed very interesting. I read a paper not long ago that fear is inherited and conversely not inherited in it's absence.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I read that too Matt. And I tend to agree. I've seen this work the other way around where normally docile animals like the Spruce Hen turn into a situation of fright night. They can't even fly very well so I cannot even begin to imagine why one would go off and try to stand off a 4 wheeler and charge a person on foot. He produced offspring like this too.

The white headed robin is not common in the US. It's in fact mismarked (pied). This bird tolerated me in the proximity of its young several times, also uncommon. Usually they become live yard darts and scare the living shit out of you if you go anywhere near their young. The bird just sat perched looking at me.

I also didn't mention Peapod, a young squirrel that I discovered a few weeks ago. I walked right up to it, squat down, and it crawled up on my feet and hand. He did this every time I managed to see him outside of my office. He was too young to have been someone's pet and the location of my office doesn't lend to the idea that he had become this way by someone else handling or feeding him. 

I tend to think that if you spend enough time with our around certain things you are going to experience what some might call unusual or even impossible as they only know certain things in a very specific context. I say this because your post in the other thread about the GSD I think speaks quite well to that point.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Looks like i have remedied the train chasing, crappy vid, just told him to leave it and he did 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbkqQ-Xjbos&feature=youtu.be


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Matt Vandart said:


> That is indeed very interesting. I read a paper not long ago that fear is inherited and conversely not inherited in it's absence.



Case in point is the Galapogus Islands. They have been protected from human contact and freely roam around with no fear of humans.

For myself I do a lot of gardening in the yard and do a lot of digging.

Most every year some robin follows me around and will actually come within reach to get worms, grubs, etc I toss.

Even after they leave the nest there is usually one or two fledgings that follow the parent and do the same thing.

I've had them pick earthworms directly off my shoe. 

My grandkids have held hummingbird feeders in their hand and fed humming birds in my yard also.


Nicole, I'll bet you living in Alaska there is a strong connection/understanding with many critters. 

Matt, hard to see but I'm betting your call off is excellent with the dogs.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Cool 

Well to be honest Bob I just said leave it and he did, weird didn't even know he knew that "command"


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Tone of voice controls more then we can imagine.....but only if the dog understands us. :grin: :wink:


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