# Support for UScA policy of not accepting GSDCA-WDA scorebooks?



## Pam Nicolaides Rizkallah (Aug 14, 2011)

I am curious how much support, from people who are in the schutzhund sport, of the UScA policy to not accept scorebooks or titles issued from the GSDCA-WDA? If you do or do not support, what is your rationale as to how your view benefits to the sport and potential solutions?


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## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

Pam Nicolaides said:


> I am curious how much support, from people who are in the schutzhund sport, of the UScA policy to not accept scorebooks or titles issued from the GSDCA-WDA? If you do or do not support, what is your rationale as to how your view benefits to the sport and potential solutions?


I did not see an actual poll, but I DO NOT SUPPORT UScA's policy on this, but that's not surprising since I don't support the JA either. They can do whatever they want - as I don't care for the organization, but this is a poll and I never have problems giving my opinion

I don't think we can actually blame UScA on this one alone as from my understanding NONE of the AWDF affiliated clubs will accept scorebooks or titles from the GSDCA-WDA because they are not a member of the AWDF. I asked this specifically of the AWMA and was told that because the GSDCA-WDA is not a member club of the AWDF - the scores would not be accepted. Funny though - Mike West usta be a UScA judge and they accepted his judging abilities when he was a part of the UScA...his abilities must have changed just because he went over to WDA#-oI would think that if the judge at a WDA trial is an SV Judge then all the organization would then have to accept the score/title/judge - but who knows. 

GSDCA-WDA will accept UScA, AWDF etc scorebooks and will honor other organizations judges scores AND you don't get slammed with extra fees because you are not a member of GSDCA-WDA.

I am a member of DVG, AWMA and GSDCA-WDA - so I have my Malinois' covered for trialing and my GSD UScA can do whatever........


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

HI Lacey

I agree the policy is stupid and nothing but political. Both
UScA and GSDCA/WDA and their score books are recognized by the SV. Lots of non AWDF scorebooks are recognized by
AWDF member clubs (SV, DV Any FCI or VDH scorebook)
In fact the DVG only became an AWDF member fairly recently
and DVG score books were always recognized before.
GSDCA/WDA score books aren't recognized because of all
the turmoil and politics between them and USCA.
AWDF is bullied and dominated by UScA.
Al Govednik AWDF President is a UScA Judge former Regional Director and held various other UScA offices. Lyle Roetemeyer is the current UScA President and AWDF VP. Sean Kane is Treasurer of both Organizations :-(
The relationship is almost incestuous.
UScA continues to thrive on account of their judging program and network of clubs and trainer and decoys. If it was based on the politics of those in charge. It would sink faster then the Titanic. UScA can only hope that the AWDF is never taken over by the rest of the member clubs or another GSD organization
(RSV200?) doesn't appear on the horizon. When/if it does in the future we'll be talking about UScA like we talk about NASA
now


Lacey Vessell said:


> I did not see an actual poll, but I DO NOT SUPPORT UScA's policy on this, but that's not surprising since I don't support the JA either. They can do whatever they want - as I don't care for the organization, but this is a poll and I never have problems giving my opinion
> 
> I don't think we can actually blame UScA on this one alone as from my understanding NONE of the AWDF affiliated clubs will accept scorebooks or titles from the GSDCA-WDA because they are not a member of the AWDF. I asked this specifically of the AWMA and was told that because the GSDCA-WDA is not a member club of the AWDF - the scores would not be accepted. Funny though - Mike West usta be a UScA judge and they accepted his judging abilities when he was a part of the UScA...his abilities must have changed just because he went over to WDA#-oI would think that if the judge at a WDA trial is an SV Judge then all the organization would then have to accept the score/title/judge - but who knows.
> 
> ...


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## Dana McMahan (Apr 5, 2006)

Lacey Vessell said:


> I asked this specifically of the AWMA and was told that because the GSDCA-WDA is not a member club of the AWDF - the scores would not be accepted.


Who did you ask in the AWMA and what was it relating to?


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Stupid policy on USA's part not to mention the JA crap. BTW DVG does recognize WDA scorebooks.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Dana Williams said:


> Who did you ask in the AWMA and what was it relating to?


Dana,

Does AWMA accept GSDCA/WDA scorebooks?

It will all be a moot point in January. The new IPO rules stated the
judge will only accept ONE Scorebook/trial The old days of Judges signing your UScA scorebook and then signing your DVG or UDC or? score books are no more


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Can I ask a random DVG question? My understanding was to be a DVG member, you had to be a member of a DVG club and you couldn't be an independent. Did I understand that correctly? If so, what's their reasoning in that? That's the main reason I'm a USA member and not DVG (even though I've entered at DVG trials with a USA scorebook) was because they allow independent members. Speaking of which, I still need to get my USA scorebook signed from our March trial BH and AD. Oops!


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Can I ask a random DVG question? My understanding was to be a DVG member, you had to be a member of a DVG club and you couldn't be an independent. Did I understand that correctly? If so, what's their reasoning in that? That's the main reason I'm a USA member and not DVG (even though I've entered at DVG trials with a USA scorebook) was because they allow independent members. Speaking of which, I still need to get my USA scorebook signed from our March trial BH and AD. Oops!


You join DVG but only by becoming a member of a DVG club, you can't join DVG independent of a DVG club. 
http://dvgamerica.com/
scroll down the left hand side and click on "membership info"

Personally I am a member of UScA, will most likely always be a member of UScA, have never been a member of GSDCA-WDA, and have no desire to join GSDCA-WDA. Even if the JA bothered me as much as it does some, no way would I quit UScA in favor of GSDCA-WDA, because that would be cutting off my nose to spite my face. GSDCA-WDA is primarily about the show dog, they have far fewer trials. After the JA it seemed like I heard a lot about how WDA was going to expand in the area of schutzhund, but for whatever reason, that didn't happen. Not for nothing many people who left because they were angry about the JA have come back to UScA. Now the GSDCA-WDA membership has voted Yee the President.....yikes and wow!!!!!! So much for one member one vote, if that's the result I am happy as hell you can't do that in UScA.
:lol:


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Pam Nicolaides said:


> I am curious how much support, from people who are in the schutzhund sport, of the UScA policy to not accept scorebooks or titles issued from the GSDCA-WDA? If you do or do not support, what is your rationale as to how your view benefits to the sport and potential solutions?


To the original question, there would be no reason for UScA to accept WDA scorebooks since there is no relationship between them and they aren't a member of WUSV or AWDF. I believe if the titles are awarded by SV judges, then the titles are recognized by UScA, no?


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> I believe if the titles are awarded by SV judges, then the titles are recognized by UScA, no?



WDA scorebooks are not recognized. If it's a SV judge the title is recognized as long as it's not in a WDA scorebook.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Can I ask a random DVG question? My understanding was to be a DVG member, you had to be a member of a DVG club and you couldn't be an independent. Did I understand that correctly? If so, what's their reasoning in that? That's the main reason I'm a USA member and not DVG (even though I've entered at DVG trials with a USA scorebook) was because they allow independent members. Speaking of which, I still need to get my USA scorebook signed from our March trial BH and AD. Oops!


There are plenty of DVG clubs that will list you as a member for a minimal associate member fee. You can be a member of a club and not train with them. I am a USCA member and train with a USCA club. I also have DVG membership which I'm letting expire at the end of the year for economic reasons


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> WDA scorebooks are not recognized. If it's a SV judge the title is recognized as long as it's not in a WDA scorebook.


After January 2012 will SV judges still sign USCA score books
at GSDCA/WDA trials or will they follow the new rules of one score book/dog/trial
Of course you can just present a USCA scorebook only?


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## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

Dana Williams said:


> Who did you ask in the AWMA and what was it relating to?


Dana I actually sent an email to several board members several months ago when I wanted to trial at a GSDCA-WDA trial with my Malinois....I sent emails one at a time waiting for a response in between, but I understand people are busy. I finally ended up on the top of the list and asked Anne - the response I received was that no....GSDCA-WDA scores/titles/judges are NOT recognized by the AWMA because GSDCA-WDA is not a member club of the AWDF. I figure it was gospel coming from Anne;-)


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## Charles Wrenn (Apr 22, 2008)

I think its crazy that AWMA doesnt accept a title from a WDA club....I for one just received my SCH 3 title under judge MIKE WEST...Mr. West was approved for many years under USCA...Now all of a sudden his ink on my scorebook is unacceptable to AWMA....I wish AWMA would re look at their policies towards this in the future!


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Funny this has to do with the WDA not belonging to the AWDF when DVG honors their trials and judges and scorebooks and they are a member of the AWDF. 

BTW...nice job with that knot-head! =D>


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Charles Wrenn said:


> I think its crazy that AWMA doesnt accept a title from a WDA club....I for one just received my SCH 3 title under judge MIKE WEST...Mr. West was approved for many years under USCA...Now all of a sudden his ink on my scorebook is unacceptable to AWMA....I wish AWMA would re look at their policies towards this in the future!


It's not an AWMA rule. It's an AWDF rule. This also is not an anti-West rule. AWDF rules say that member clubs can only accept other members judges and FCI judges. Since Mike is no longer a member or FCI judge ....

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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Christopher Smith said:


> It's not an AWMA rule. It's an AWDF rule. This also is not an anti-West rule. AWDF rules say that member clubs can only accept other members judges and FCI judges. Since Mike is no longer a member or FCI judge ....
> 
> Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk


Care to point out in the AWDF by-laws exactly where that is? 

I'm telling you right now DVG still accepts WDA scorebooks and titles under WDA judges using DVG scorebooks so I guess they didn't get that AWDF memo. 

This is along the lines that USA/AWDF tried like crazy to not let the AWMA and UDC from working with their AKC counterparts to verify titles for AKC pedigrees.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Keith Jenkins said:


> Care to point out in the AWDF by-laws exactly where that is?
> 
> I'm telling you right now DVG still accepts WDA scorebooks and titles under WDA judges using DVG scorebooks so I guess they didn't get that AWDF memo.
> 
> This is along the lines that USA/AWDF tried like crazy to not let the AWMA and UDC from working with their AKC counterparts to verify titles for AKC pedigrees.


Just because a club is doing something does not mean that they are in compliance with the rules. For instance there's, and has been for years, a IPO rule saying that you can only have one scorebook.

If you want to see the rule you should contact the AWDF secretary or use the website. 

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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

What's discussed over a beer and written on a cocktail napkin doesn't make a rule. It's not in their by-laws..period. 

DVG has honored WDA titles and scorebooks long before they became members of the AWDF. 

DVG requires as a DVG member that I use DVG scorebooks at their trials. AWDF decided that to enter the AWDF Championship you had to have an AWDF scorebook. AWDF agreed to sign both books so I guess that single scorebook issue isn't always enforced now is it?


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

So you contacted the secretary that quickly?

You should also contact her about the difference between a rule and a bylaw. 

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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Even rules need to be published and they never supercede by-laws. 

Care to bet good money on this?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Keith Jenkins said:


> What's discussed over a beer and written on a cocktail napkin doesn't make a rule. It's not in their by-laws..period.
> 
> DVG has honored WDA titles and scorebooks long before they became members of the AWDF.
> 
> DVG requires as a DVG member that I use DVG scorebooks at their trials. AWDF decided that to enter the AWDF Championship you had to have an AWDF scorebook. AWDF agreed to sign both books so I guess that single scorebook issue isn't always enforced now is it?


Keith 

The one score book rule is part of the new IPO rules going into effect on January 1
I've never heard of a one score book rule in existence at the current time. I've had no problem getting a DVG scorebook signed at any UScA or AWDF (UDC) event and visa versa


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

> > What's discussed over a beer and written on a cocktail napkin doesn't make a rule. It's not in their by-laws..period.
> >
> > DVG has honored WDA titles and scorebooks long before they became members of the AWDF.
> >
> ...


If a tree falls in the woods and Thomas doesn't hear it......


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> If a tree falls in the woods and Thomas doesn't hear it......


And if Christopher Smith says there's rule and he can't provide a link or any other proof?
He's full of SHIT


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Keith
> 
> The one score book rule is part of the new IPO rules going into effect on January 1
> I've never heard of a one score book rule in existence at the current time. I've had no problem getting a DVG scorebook signed at any UScA or AWDF (UDC) event and visa versa


I asked DVG about the AWDF scorebook issue come 1/1/2012. Right now until further notice they are operating under the premise that it will be the same procedure. At the AWDF Championship judges will sign both books just as they do now.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Keith Jenkins said:


> I asked DVG about the AWDF scorebook issue come 1/1/2012. Right now until further notice they are operating under the premise that it will be the same procedure. At the AWDF Championship judges will sign both books just as they do now.


That's real possible. UScA isn't offering the Protection only titles or the new ZTP. So just because it's part of the new IPO rules doesn't mean anyone will follow it here.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Im not your research assistant. I'm doing your lazy ass a favor and telling you to read the rulebooks. If you did you would get learn, not just the info for short term, but you might understand other things also. For instance, if you learned the rules you would understand that UScA is not violating any rules by not offering the stpr titles. 

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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Christopher Smith said:


> Im not your research assistant. I'm doing your lazy ass a favor and telling you to read the rulebooks. If you did you would get learn, not just the info for short term, but you might understand other things also. For instance, if you learned the rules you would understand that UScA is not violating any rules by not offering the stpr titles.
> 
> Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk


Actualy you would probably benefit from a rules refresher course. They will be offering the StPr. Its the SPr they will not be offering.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> Im not your research assistant. I'm doing your lazy ass a favor and telling you to read the rulebooks. If you did you would get learn, not just the info for short term, but you might understand other things also. For instance, if you learned the rules you would understand that UScA is not violating any rules by not offering the stpr titles.
> 
> Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk


Who said anything about UScA violating any rules by not offering the stpr titles?????
You're sill full of shit and now trying to side step

From the AWDF rule book

Scorebooks
Each participating dog must have a scorebook issued or recognized by the AWDF member organization. The scorebook is issued according to the regulations of the handler’s appropriate organization. In any case, the judge enters the trial results in the scorebook, and, if there is a provision made in the scorebook, the trial chairperson must check the entry and verify it with his/her signature.

NOTHING about ONE score book in the current rules???

LMAO at Christopher "Full of Shit" Smith


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Thomas you are a geriatric scabie and you don't know what you're talking about. Now it's time to ponder if you are also a deceitful gasbag or a dominate lemming try to run everyone else off a cliff.

From the 2012 scorebook (bottom of page 12):

Scorebook

A scorebook is mandatory for every participating dog. Issuance of the scorebook is done according to the instructions of the handler


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]From the 2012 scorebook (bottom of page 12):[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Scorebook[/FONT]
A scorebook is mandatory for every participating dog. Issuance of the scorebook is done according to the instructions of the handler’s corresponding National Organization.* Important to note, only one
scorebook may be issued per dog. *This is the responsibility of the issuing organization. The trial results must be recorded in the scorebook under all circumstances by the judge (LR) as well as the Trial
Secretary (PL), who is to double check the entry and sign the book.
As from 2012 it will be required that the following entries be made: Members number, name and breed of the dog, identification of the dog (tattoo nr. / Chip Nr.) Name and address of the owner of the dog,
entry of the total points in Phase A, B and C, qualification and TSB rating. Name of the judge and his
signature.


http://www.fci.be/circulaires/55-2011-annex-en.pdf


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> [FONT=&quot]
> [/FONT]
> 
> [FONT=&quot]From the 2012 scorebook (bottom of page 12):[/FONT]
> ...


The TWENTY TWELVE RULE BOOK doesn't take effect till
JANUARY the one score book rule is not a current rule like
you said in post 18

"Just because a club is doing something does not mean that they are in compliance with the rules. For instance there's, and has been for years, a IPO rule saying that you can only have one scorebook."
So "geriatic scabie' or whatever insult you care to think up
YOU ARE STILL FULL OF SHIT


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

*Mike West*

In January Gunther Diegel will be in the US hosting a judges seminar for the WDA. If they pass the test, Mike West, Wendall Nope, and Doug Alexander will all be SVR judges. Which will mean the USCA has to accept the titles from these judges. 
What happens then? LMAO


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> The TWENTY TWELVE RULE BOOK doesn't take effect till
> JANUARY the one score book rule is not a current rule like
> you said in post 18
> 
> ...


It's the same rule in the 2008 rule book Uncle Scabie. 

http://leerburg.com/pdf/IPO_EN_2008.pdf

BTW, you shouldn't take Scabie as an insult. It's just a description of you. A small, almost invisible, parasite that tries to get under a humans skin.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Christopher,

Are you the AWMA VP under some kind of hire the mentally handicapped program?
The IPO rules you quote are there will only be one score book issued per dog FOR ANY ORGANIZATION. There is no rule that
you can't belong to more then one organization. The new rule everyone else is talking about (not sure WTF you're talking about) is IPO judges will only sign one score book at any trial starting 
1/1/2012.
None of this has anything to do with your claim about AWDF rules 
You're STILL FULL OF SHIT Chris


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

HAHAHAHA!!!!! It's so much fun to watch someone twist himself into to pretzel to be wrong!!!! 

Thanks Uncle Scabie :mrgreen:


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> HAHAHAHA!!!!! It's so much fun to watch someone twist himself into to pretzel to be wrong!!!!
> 
> Thanks Uncle Scabie :mrgreen:


You must be looking in a mirror Fool.
You just get confused by any post more then 3 lines and
your mind gets confused with
Issuing one score book per dog per organization
and
Judges only signing one score book per trial starting in January.

Just go back over the posts and read real S L O W 
You might have to read the posts several times but you'll figure it out eventually ??????


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

" There is no rule that you can't belong to more then one organization".

That's why you can see the top competitors in both the big USA and WDA trials .


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## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

Bob there is a rule - it's called the JA Ammendment (Johannes Grewe Ammendment ).....

UScA now makes a member sign a card when they renew or join that they will not belong to a competing GSD organization..why they just don't write GSDCA-WDA is bs...but it is a rule. I for one (definitely not a top competitor) will not pay to have my rights taken away....to each their own. You can no longer see top competitors competing in both organizations....they have to choose (only because UScA's rule) between one or the other organization.

Oh and on that renewal card there are a few others rights that you must also waiver....


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## Mario Fernandez (Jun 21, 2008)

Do I like the JA rule no..it hurts the people who wants to just train their dog. The people that at first making a big stink about if you noticed were the big competitors. You see if they didn't do well at the USCA Ch, they could always had the option of entering and making the WDA team. 

I see people on every message boards complaining and whining about how USCA have a conflict of interest with the AWDF and people being both elected officials on both boards. Complaining isn't going to get you anywhere, be proactive and join your breed club and run for the open spots when they become available. 

The language you agree to when you join USCA are not that different from the language the financial institutions like credit card and cell phone put in their application for rights to arbitration.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Lacey Vessell said:


> Bob there is a rule - it's called the JA Ammendment (Johannes Grewe Ammendment ).....
> 
> UScA now makes a member sign a card when they renew or join that they will not belong to a competing GSD organization..why they just don't write GSDCA-WDA is bs...but it is a rule. I for one (definitely not a top competitor) will not pay to have my rights taken away....to each their own. You can no longer see top competitors competing in both organizations....they have to choose (only because UScA's rule) between one or the other organization.
> 
> Oh and on that renewal card there are a few others rights that you must also waiver....



Thanks for that info Lacey. How can the top guns then compete in the different National/World events? That seems like it will destroy one or the other organization in this country...or both.

I belonged to both WDA and UScA at one time but it's been 3-4 yrs since either one now. Never at a high level though.


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## Mario Fernandez (Jun 21, 2008)

Bob:

I think from 1989-2003, USCA and WDA had their own separate teams. Then the WUSV said only one team per country. So the USCA and WDA would each host their own Nationals and each year the team members per team would alternate for example, WDA would have 3 members on the team and USCA would have two and the alternateant for the six dog team. 

This year the WUSV has ordered all counties that have more than one GSD organization to host a unification trial in which, I believe the top 6 dogs will represent their country at the WUSV. In June of this year, in KY their was USA first unification trial. So if I remember right the top 10 placements at the WDA and the top ten dogs for USCA competed in the Unification trial.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Thanks Mario. It still boils down to the best of the best then....politics aside. :-D


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## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

Mario, I agree with your statement that it hurts those that just want to train and trial their dogs...I was one of those people. I really don't see the big deal in higher level competitors utilizing both organizations to obtain their goals - as I would think that we would want THE BEST DOGS and HANDLERS representing the US of A. As long as ALL competitors have the same opportunity = they can all trial in UScA and WDA qualifier if they so choose - no big deal to me. Why hurt many...to spite a few?

What is really sad...in both the UScA and WDA in my opinion is winning the National Events for both organizations does not mean what it meant before when it comes to the World team - because of the "politics" between the organizations and having to hold a joint qualifier - yes I do know that this was a requirement handed down from WUSV but I also think that the WUSV stepped in because two organizations in our country (and another) could not work things out between themselves - how sad is that? So in the end, those of us "little people" that are not independently wealthy or don't have sponsors have little hope of ever competing at such a level even if we qualify. The cost incurred by those that enter the trials (is it 2-3 trials now?) required prior to be considered for the UScA side of the house for the World Qualifier Team is very expensive in travel costs..even more so when you consider the time away from work, time away from family and other dogs.

I don't know about your financial institution or cell phone company...but mine don't require me to sign a form saying that I will not use any other phone company or credit card company but theirs if they did....I would not be using their services.


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