# Water Search Info



## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Does anyone have any links to sites that provide good info on what is involved to train a dog in water search?

Equipment needed, finacial commitments, time lines, certifications...that kind of thing.

It is not for me, but someone that has come to me for info. Admittedly I don't know anything about it, but thought that there are a few here who have likely been involved in this type of work.

As far as I know there is no such profile available in my province.

Thanks in advance!


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I have not found a lot good on the internet on this topic. Absaroka search dogs used to have some nice articles and I have some I can send if you PM me but they are more on technical data related to drowning victims as opposed to training methods. 

In terms of info on training, my certification is through NAPWDA which is a combo land/water cadaver test but others [NASAR, IPWDA, NNDDA] have civilian available water cadaver. NAPWDA gives the option of testing shoreline only but our evaluator insisted we test on boats as well as shoreline and I am glad she did.

The National Search Dog Alliance recently did some webinars and one was on water search with Marcia Koenig; I have not recently listened to it but it could be good and there is some basic info in the cadaver dog handbook on this. Follow the links to the webinars in this page. The webinars are not titled but it was one of the more recent ones.
http://www.n-sda.org/

Two schools of thought in training - some start with divers and others never use them. I originally went the diver route, was "convinced" by the non diver approach that divers were not needed and am seriously rethinking because the recently dead which you get in a drowning probably smell closer to the dogs to alive than dead [particularly when you figure the average cadaver dog does not get much exposure to freshly dead bodies] -- and I think that must be true watching how the dogs respond on decomp vs a fresh drowning -- anyway, glad to talk more offline on the topic.

She can google and contact Jonni Joyce. She does have a respectable course in water cadaver training and we contracted with her when we did that phase of training. It is going to be offered as an ecourse on her site, I believe.

Other good people to look for are Lisa Higgins and Dee Wild. They are widely respected as experts in this area and any seminars [usually it seems to be Lisa] are well attended and highly thought of. We brought her in once for a mini-seminar and were well pleased. You may be able to catch up with her seminars through LaSAR. 
http://www.lasardogs.org/
or through the National search dog alliance.

Some folks like Barbara Weakly Jones, KY medical examiner. I was not as impressed with her training because she wants a trained indication at source whereas Jonni uses more reading the dog and having the dog walk the gunnels following the scent as you pass over source. I think NNDDA wants same trained indication at source. The struggle I have with a trained passive indication at source on a boat is the boat is constantly moving and the dog cannot find the strongest source until they start moving out of scent and cannot hook to go back in [that is where walking the gunnels comes in as the dog tries to stay in scent] -- Another thing Jonni and some others do is teach the dog to steer the boat. The dog learns that the boat driver will move the boat wherever his head aims. It really works 

This is defnitely an area where some time wtih a good trainer or at least some good seminars works. I think typical is 6 months of concentrated summer training [by that I mean once or twice a month - water setups are always difficult] could get a dog basic operational but a year is more typical.

Equipment - dog must be able to ride in any boat. We have a jon boat with a platform we built that is particularly nice. Lifejacket for people - some have for dogs others don't. We usually just have a collar on ours because you need some way to pull the dog back into the boat if they fall in.

Scent pump - homemade contraption - to run pressurized air over contained source and through a tube/bubbler into the water. About $150 or so to build one. Everyone seems to have a unique design. A lot of places are kind of picky about putting real HR into water.

Divers - free with lunch - but it is grueling for them. But it also gives them needed dive time for their records and is fun.

The main thing is setup - the scent pump is always picky and tricky - divers take a lot of time and changeouts - it is by its nature an all day event to do water training. Then you have a dirty boat to clean afterwards and gear to clean etc.

Sorry this is so disorganized. it is late and I just threw out some random thoughts for names that are well known she can google on etc.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

uh.....ditto....   

Great post Nancy. 

Did you cert under Mickey? (napwda)


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Carol Boche said:


> uh.....ditto....
> 
> Did you cert under Mickey? (napwda)


Yes, last June. I am dreading the recert. She is tough but fair.

Oh, I will add - Mickey's dog DOES a passive indication at source, but my dog flew to the back of the boat on our cert problem and almost went off the stern and consistenly offers that behavior. I am still working on that; when he tested he had only been in a boat four times. But I think the key is consistency.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Awesome, thanks for all that info Nancy!

I learned a lot too and will pass the info on.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> I
> Scent pump - homemade contraption - to run pressurized air over contained source and through a tube/bubbler into the water. About $150 or so to build one. Everyone seems to have a unique design. A lot of places are kind of picky about putting real HR into water.


Question: How do you guys get around the dog cueing on the visual of the bubbling water?


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Konnie Hein said:


> Question: How do you guys get around the dog cueing on the visual of the bubbling water?


Couple of ways ....... 

When the bubbles are set low enough you don't see them until you are right on top of them. And when there is any water movement at all you don,tsee them at all, even with divers which produce a LOT of bubbles. Oh and a ceramic diffuser stone breaks up the bubbles more finely than a standard cheap airstone.

You can also turn off the bubbles as you are approaching; there is enough residual but timing is important as there is a bit of delay between what goes on at the pump and what happens on the water. We do that a good bit.

I have heard some people use divers with rebreathers but no one we have worked with has them.

You always have turtle and other bubbles in the ponds which the dogs learn don't pay off.

If you are concerned about the issue, you can always put in "blank" bubbles as a distractor but you would need a completely clean set of airlines to do that.

I really think the biggest problem with the bubbles is NOT the dogs who are used to trusting their noses; it is with us handlers who tend to look for the bubbles instead of looking AT our dogs. It is just like when you run a marked trail and you are too busy looking a the markers. I do think water work forces you to read your dog better than land cadaver where the dog has more control over where they move. To me the rivers have been more difficult becuase you cannot "V" into the source like you can on stillwater.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Jennifer.

All the dogs we started were alreay funtional in some other area of scentwork before starting water work.

Scent transport in water is complex as the dog indicates where the scent is leaving the water which may not be where the body is under less than ideal conditions. If your friend can get some smoke bombs and throw them it water [they keep producing smoke underwater] it will give some very interesting insights.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Jennifer.
> 
> All the dogs we started were alreay funtional in some other area of scentwork before starting water work.
> 
> Scent transport in water is complex as the dog indicates where the scent is leaving the water which may not be where the body is under less than ideal conditions. If your friend can get some smoke bombs and throw them it water [they keep producing smoke underwater] it will give some very interesting insights.


 
This is where it really helps to know the depth and current speed. 
The dog may alert many yards down stream of where the victim is.
Ponds are so much easier!
When I was with SAR the teams quickest water find was in 35 ft of water within 3 hrs of the person last seen. Our deepest was 95 ft, 3 days after the fact.
The 35 ft alert was almost directly above. (small lake)
The 95 ft alert was aprox 50 yrds down from the victim. (large lake near the damn)
Both cases the divers figured it pretty darn close. (Missouri Water Recovery Team)


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

It really is fascinating. When you work reservoirs and the rivers below them you also have the logistical requirement of knowning the release schedule and sometimes they can adjust it for the search. 

The rivers are trickiest. Some rivers we only work from shoreline and have dog on harness. There is no point risking a dog's or hanlders life to find a body.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Then there are thermoclines!

You have to either ask the diver or have a temperature guage on a rope. We bought the gauge that drops to bottom and tells you the temperature every 5 feet. 

If you don't break up the thermocline scent can travel a LONG way at the interface between the layers of water at different temperatures; it is like a ceiling.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

And in the spring and fall when the lakes are "turning over".
To do water work/any scent work is a never ending learning expierience.


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## Barrie Kirkland (Nov 6, 2007)

I was on a live job for HR with deAths in a loch. The water work was just to cover the shores and a short distance into the water

Also this week we were training submerged hides in water. My dog will swim round the hide and then dive down, I have seen other dogs digging in the ground where they pick up the scent


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Swimming and circling while biting at the water/diving is pretty natural and can be built on. For shoreline like that we have used a bobber/pulley reward system where it pops up while dog the dog is circling.

Have also been training the dogs to work on lead and alert on shore in hazadous areas. [swiftwater, swamps, floodwater]; we decided this after having a very close call with a dog on a search recently. 

On the boat, we try to keep our dogs in the boat and out of the water. We also sometimes work shoreline from the boat as well. One challenge here is poisonous snakes and alligators, both of which like the waters edge. The alligators are not so much in the part of the state where most of our work is, but they are in the southern and coastal parts of the state.

One search in a swamp was a bit unnerving because the police had automatic weapons of a fairly large caliber poised for any pigs or gators. 

I have not trained much around them that I know of but I understand the alligators have an incredible nose for decomp and actually like to cache their food in holes on the riverbanks.


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## Barrie Kirkland (Nov 6, 2007)

snakes alligators haha... we dont have them in Scotland

If its deeper in the divers cover that.

I am intrested in equipment that other folks use, so if you have any pics can you post them , we are always looking for ways to improve

ta

Barrie


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I think we had one find over 150 feet. We work with the divers to narrow down their search area. Most water here is murky and the big reservoirs have a lot of silt and old trees on the bottom because they were made by damming and flooding large valleys, etc. - So they typically work "in the dark" feeling their way around for the body. In one lake, I had a diver tell me he could plunge his arm up to his armpit in silt and not touch bottom.

Fishfinders and underwater cameras are common tools. Limited in some situations. [like murky water full of stuff]

Need to take some good pictures. There use to be plans for a scent pump but since you work with pig, i guess there are no issues with putting that in the water, unlike the issues we have with putting HR in the water.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Our first step in "boat" training was sitting in a boat in a parking lot. The boat had the pumps on a valve system and the "scent" could be directed off of any corner of the boat via aquarium valves/tubing. Worked great and was fun to watch the green dogs go from side to side and around the boat towards where the scent was released. The systen made it easy to adjust accordiing to the wind diredtion. 
We've also used the bobber/ pulley system for shoreline work. 

ps
With the tubing system we also had scent free air lines to proof against the dogs alerting on the "air leak".


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Our first step in "boat" training was sitting in a boat in a parking lot. The boat had the pumps on a valve system and the "scent" could be directed off of any corner of the boat via aquarium valves/tubing. Worked great and was fun to watch the green dogs go from side to side and around the boat towards where the scent was released. The systen made it easy to adjust accordiing to the wind diredtion.
> We've also used the bobber/ pulley system for shoreline work.
> 
> ps
> With the tubing system we also had scent free air lines to proof against the dogs alerting on the "air leak".


How did that work for you? The boat on the parking lot? I have heard of that approach and it seems it could be very efficient. I have also heard of just pulling the boat trailer along a path with scent on one side or the other. Once again wind conditions very important. 

We first started on a 14/36 jon boat owned by the FD. That was a rockin' adventure. When we bought our boat we went with a 15/48 just for stability. 

The set up is the killer in getting a decent frequency in boat work.


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## Megan Bays (Oct 10, 2008)

I'm really interested in this stuff and would love to see video of training with green dogs if anyone has it.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> How did that work for you? The boat on the parking lot? I have heard of that approach and it seems it could be very efficient. I have also heard of just pulling the boat trailer along a path with scent on one side or the other. Once again wind conditions very important.
> 
> We first started on a 14/36 jon boat owned by the FD. That was a rockin' adventure. When we bought our boat we went with a 15/48 just for stability.
> 
> The set up is the killer in getting a decent frequency in boat work.


 
I thought it worked great!
With a few dogs it's better then tossing them in a boat for the first time on water and asking for alerts. Just a bit less distraction sitting in a lot. 
Towing the boat with scent on one side or another would also be another idea and a bit more of a distraction for a young dog. The only thing I coulds question in that was a lack of ability to manuver with the dogs indications. It would still show a dogs ability to indicate from a moving platform. (boat on trailer OR in the bed of a pickup truck).
With the setup in a parking lot your actually controlling the "manuvering" with the scent hoses on different parts of the boat.


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## Linda Addy (Apr 2, 2009)

Hi Nancy,
Do you or anyone else have any information or links on how to build a scent pump? Could I just purchase a aquarium pump at a pet store and use that? 

Thanks everyone,
Linda


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

You know - you see one then you jerry rig it. I don't think an aquarium pump could deliver enough pressure and give you the control you need.

I can try to see if there are any plans around - or maybe draw ours up and scan it the next time we do water training - we used a divers tank [2000 psi I think] and get it filled at the fire department as needed.

There is the valve on the tank, then another valve like a gas valve which goes into a PVC chamber in which the source is placed. Somewhere we also have a fine tuning dial valve. The hose is rubber airline hose like what they use to fill a car tire - I am not sure whether or not PVC is strong enough. We attach weights to the hose as we feed it into the water. Most I have seen are some similar variation.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

There used to be a good one on the web somewhere but I've not been able to find it. It's been a couple of years.


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## Linda Addy (Apr 2, 2009)

The dive tank is a good idea. I have a friend who just started working at a dive shop so I can get help there. I check for sources on the web too. Thanks for the help everyone.

Linda


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> There used to be a good one on the web somewhere but I've not been able to find it. It's been a couple of years.


Let me know if you find it.

I think it was Absaroka search team and somebody left that team [I even emailed them about the diagram and articles] and they also pulled off some really nice articles on water training.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

This was a site that built them. Looked really nice. 
I have one of those portable air tanks that you can buy at any auto supply shop really cheap. That would be a good start. They can be filled at a gas station and hold a fair amount of air.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

We built our first scent pump with one of those but it would not provide enough air for a full day of training.


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## Lisa Preston (Aug 21, 2008)

I'm definitely in the Use Divers camp. Many moons agp, I brought Sandy Bryson up for a water search seminar and the local dive rescue just spent a lot of time sitting in the bottom of lakes playing tic tac toe and hangman on their slates. We did river work, too No scent pumps.
I've the old Koenig vid, if anyone's interested.


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