# how would you judge this dog



## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0G-hGhz0Tw&list=UU7n3zd74iiolAbPcpmTXGbQ&index=3

5 month old knpv malinois, just from the video what would you think of the pup?
im especiall curious about how you would interpret the ears going back when he looks around at people and also his handler


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

The way i see it,the dog is not sure what he is doing there but is not feeling a lot of pressure from the people around him.He seems neutral to his surrounding.
Dog is not sure about the handler and senses the handler is tense(camera shy)?
The dog is feeling pressure coming from the handler(muzzle licking).
Looks like a handler who is out to prove something.
What you see is a dog who is not in any kind of drive but sometimes he looks up at the handler as if to look for a food reward.
I would not judge this dog at all,it would all be guesswork.
Test a puppy to death will you?What does it prove?
Not worried about his ear movement at all,his tail tells a lot more.
Maybe not super relaxed but not worrying either.
Not fair to judge a pup with this kind of info but why people would want to use this as a test is beyond me.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

lol

short video of pup at expo..dont know much else than that..nothing to do with KNPV, no background info. An Australian guy with a pup with unknown training or exposure at an expo.

for all we know the guy just tuned up the puppy before this video was shot.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Looks like a nice YOUNG puppy. A lot of distractions to throw at a 5 month old all at once. What's the point?
I also think he's distracted by the LOUD annoying music playing in the background ?


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

From the video I would think he is an adult now and I'd want to see current info.


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

its nothing to do with knpv or the training of the pup, i was just more curious about how people would read its body language.

the first response was really informative by the way, i didnt pick up on the licking the lips part. although i thought dogs lick their nose to keep it wet , which helps them maintain their sense of smell


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## Rhonda Moses (Nov 30, 2012)

Michael Murphy said:


> its nothing to do with knpv or the training of the pup, i was just more curious about how people would read its body language.
> 
> the first response was really informative by the way, i didnt pick up on the licking the lips part. although i thought dogs lick their nose to keep it wet , which helps them maintain their sense of smell


I watched a tiny bit of the vid. I thought I was going to see a KNPV dog, got bored. Turid Raagas (sp?) used to call that a calming signal. I never bought into all that completely, but I have noticed a lot, dogs yawning and/or lick lipping, etc when stressed. Start looking for one thing, like "lip licking" for ex. at training, pet smart, the vet, etc Then you'll probably be surprised how many things you didn't notice in the first place. That's what I did lol

Rhonda


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

I was trying to figure out if he had an e-collar on under the bandana because the dog looked stressed. At one point, he turns to look at/wags his tail at the child in the stroller and then quickly looks back at his handler while changing his body posture. I agree with whoever said it looks like the dog is feeling pressure from his handler. He doesn't seem to look as nervous about his surroundings as he does about what he's supposed to be doing. Also, at the end of the video, it looks like he twitches or scratches at his neck. He may not be wearing an e-collar but he certainly looks worried about something and is very calm/well-behaved for a young pup.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I agree with Jack and Ariel. The environment itself isn't a big deal and I don't think its asking too much of a young puppy to deal. I use something like that to test mine. He seems to be dealing with it fine but is worried about what can come from the handler. I'm not sure why this video was made. There is a point the pup perks up with his ears up and looks interested and in drive towards the end. There's been a lot "put there" so you can't really tell what the dog's genetic make up is. All you can say is that he has a helluva off switch or tons of control work.


T


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

I think everybody nailed it


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

I wouldn't use this video as a way to test or evaluate this puppy at all. His behavior in this environment did not look totally relaxed, nor did it look totally stressed. In order to have any opinion on this video at all I would at least need to know if this was his first time ever out into the public, or has he been exposed to this type of environment his whole life? If this was his very first time out in the public then I'd say the way he handled it was acceptable. If he has been exposed to this sort of thing many times, and for example this was 6 hours into his third day at this expo / event then I'd say he is a little more worried than he should be. This opinion is only assuming its the environment that the dog is worried / conserned about. If the stress is coming from his handler then that is a whole different issue all together. 
So in short, we can tell nothing at all about this video other than its a black pup walking through a crowd of people inside a building.
If this were my pup I'd be trying to free him up more, bring him up a little in drive and make this a happy expierence for him. Why would I want to put presure on him here so that he can make a negative association with this type of environment at a young age.


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Well my first thought was if the dog likes Clutch he has good taste in music.  Not to derail this thread, however you've got to give props where they're due.

Otherwise, just for fun, he seemed pretty stable if a bit uncertain what was going on, just based on body language w/ his tail up & wagging and yet looking around. I mean, he licked his lips a couple times and his ears were back and he seemed like he was a pup in a new place, aware yet not slinking away or avoiding anything. Still, I'm not nearly good enough to read much into that in a two-minute video.

-Cheers


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

From his tail I would say he is not fussed about his surroundings.

From his ear positions I would say this is a "Beschwichtigungsmanöver" that is to say a "placation message" addressed to the handler who is moving (for my feeling) most unnaturally and the dog is unnerved by it or expecting something negative.

However, videos like this are difficult to assess. Is the dog picking up the owner's insecurity or what??


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

David Ruby said:


> Well my first thought was if the dog likes Clutch he has good taste in music.
> -Cheers


Ahhh, yes. That. It was the first thing I noticed.


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> However, videos like this are difficult to assess. Is the dog picking up the owner's insecurity or what??


After watching the other obedience videos on the same YouTube channel, I believe the pup is responding to e-collar pressure. I suspect the bandana is covering the collar and whatever the handler is holding in his hands is hiding the remote (Watch his finger in the first couple seconds of the video ...you'll see it moving as if he's pressing a button. I notice it a few other times, as well, but it's most obvious then). The same user has a couple other videos of a pup of similar age working on obedience and the place command. You see the same behaviors ...yawning, licking, slightly unsure/submissive body posture. Those behaviors are so easy to recognize in dogs, especially young pups, that have been working using negative reinforcement with the collar. Not saying it's bad training, just that the stress from the training manifests pretty obviously, especially in young dogs.


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

^ wow i didnt think it would have been an e collar (well not at that age anyway) iv never read that much into licking or yawning (especiall yawning, shouldnt that mean the dogs relaxed ?)
i read the ears back , little bow of the head as a more submissive behaviour, you get that posture a lot in pups/adults when their owners pat them on the heads etc , similar kind of posture


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Michael Murphy said:


> ^ wow i didnt think it would have been an e collar (well not at that age anyway) iv never read that much into licking or yawning (especiall yawning, shouldnt that mean the dogs relaxed ?)
> i read the ears back , little bow of the head as a more submissive behaviour, you get that posture a lot in pups/adults when their owners pat them on the heads etc , similar kind of posture


Yawning, most often, is an indication of stress.


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

Yawning is a calming signal between dogs, as Ariel said, "stress". JMHO too much pressure for a pup that age! That with the licking too, certainly wasn't relaxed.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Michael Murphy said:


> ^ wow i didnt think it would have been an e collar (well not at that age anyway) iv never read that much into licking or yawning (especiall yawning, shouldnt that mean the dogs relaxed ?)
> i read the ears back , little bow of the head as a more submissive behaviour, you get that posture a lot in pups/adults when their owners pat them on the heads etc , similar kind of posture


Seems like there was a fair bit of subtle or not so, things taking place in the video. I think it was a good video for review for that reason alone. It generated dialogue that could serve to educate others on behaviors that might be missed by owners or others that are interested in learning about training techniques and reading dog behaviors.

Course, I initially got distracted pretty quickly when I imagined my snipe in that environment. She'd look like the Roadrunner spinning out with excitement getting to where ever it is that she thinks she's going to when entering new places like that. Everywhere I guess, she's just too little and there's not enough of her to get to every place she wants to go at once. \\/ Ah, my Wasabi... her motto seems to be any which way you can.


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

i had placed a lot more of the behaviour on the dogs genetics at first, and less on the handler, didnt assume that much pressure would be placed on a pup

reall curious to hear from Selena and other knpv trainers to how they would judge the pups (genetics or trainer) , since it is a knpv line dog. how they would expect a 5 month old pup to act in those surroundings, pressure from handler or no pressure


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

A KNPV dog is just another dog,there are really good ones and some really bad ones.Some people just think because it is a KNPV line dog is it some kind of superior animal.
I somehow think KNPV is not something you can learn,you kind of grow into it from an early age on.
Even the best pup can be ruined quite easily if you don't know what you are doing.
Maybe testing on an ongoing basis is one of those things.
The problem with testing is imo you are always looking for negative things and missing the positive things.
Learn to work with what you have,one dog at the time!


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

jack van strien said:


> A KNPV dog is just another dog,there are really good ones and some really bad ones.Some people just think because it is a KNPV line dog is it some kind of superior animal.
> I somehow think KNPV is not something you can learn,you kind of grow into it from an early age on.
> Even the best pup can be ruined quite easily if you don't know what you are doing.
> Maybe testing on an ongoing basis is one of those things.
> ...


=D>


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> =D>


Yeah, no kidding (me clapping too) O. Simple and nicely said. :!:


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

Nicole Stark said:


> Yeah, no kidding (me clapping too) O. Simple and nicely said. :!:


+1


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

jack van strien said:


> A KNPV dog is just another dog,there are really good ones and some really bad ones.Some people just think because it is a KNPV line dog is it some kind of superior animal.
> I somehow think KNPV is not something you can learn,you kind of grow into it from an early age on.
> Even the best pup can be ruined quite easily if you don't know what you are doing.
> Maybe testing on an ongoing basis is one of those things.
> ...


I'm with everyone else on this & further elaboration. I had someone looking at some young pups, he critiqued them all negative, this was wrong that was this etc. I was somewhat p.o.'d & calmly said, you'll be better once you can recognize potential in a dog. Could have heard a pin drop & priceless expression. So I "totally" agree, & hope this may be a lesson for others. Thanks Jack =D>


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Michael Murphy said:


> i had placed a lot more of the behaviour on the dogs genetics at first, and less on the handler, didnt assume that much pressure would be placed on a pup
> 
> reall curious to hear from Selena and other knpv trainers to how they would judge the pups (genetics or trainer) , since it is a knpv line dog. how they would expect a 5 month old pup to act in those surroundings, pressure from handler or no pressure


Is there a blue print for the 5 month old KNPV line dog and how she should act in a crowded public environment? Well behaved and un-nerved in a public setting is not a big deal to get and you can get it without creating this type of demeanor--if that's something that is important to you.


T


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

^ if it was a mastiff pup i would have asked some mastiff breeders/ trainers, if it was a kelpie i would have asked some sheep dog trainers, its a knpv line pup so im curious how they would evaluate the pup.

the environment is interesting to me because it mainly consists of people. the main "job" for a working line malinois/dutchy (especially from knpv lines) is to deal with people. so the question was to help me build my own knowledge base about how to read a young dog in a crowded environment. of further interest to myself personally is that the behaviour of the dog reminds me a lot of how my german shepherd acts


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

ofcoures your going to look for the negatives ( as well as the postives)
the great trainers can bring out the potential in a dog and HIDE many of its negatives/flaws and make it look awesome. i personally thing that when the sh*t hits the fan however a weaker dog thats made to look great will show its true colours and buckle under the pressure.

you pick the pup with the least negatives and most positives and then try your best to train the best working dog (working dog means different things to different people!) you can. 
but if you can find a pup / dog with only positives thats what you want. some people are just perfectionists ](*,)


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Nicole Stark said:


> Seems like there was a fair bit of subtle or not so, things taking place in the video. I think it was a good video for review for that reason alone. It generated dialogue that could serve to educate others on behaviors that might be missed by owners or others that are interested in learning about training techniques and reading dog behaviors.
> 
> Course, I initially got distracted pretty quickly when I imagined my snipe in that environment. She'd look like the Roadrunner spinning out with excitement getting to where ever it is that she thinks she's going to when entering new places like that. Everywhere I guess, she's just too little and there's not enough of her to get to every place she wants to go at once. \\/ Ah, my Wasabi... her motto seems to be any which way you can.


That was kind of my point I was trying to make.

No other info aside from this video. 
For all I know that dog coulld have been reacting to that environment like you imagined your dog would, as many pups would. 

None of us know what the guys training is like. He might have hammered that type of stuff out of the dog, we just dont know.

It is great to observe the behavior, but people shouldnt judge the dog on the behaviors that they might infer..

People in my neighborhood have laughed at my dog trying to get away from loose ankle biters and other dogs that run up to her, when they see it, the behavior that they are reading into the equation is that the dog is scared of the loose dogs, and trying to get away from them....When in fact she is scared for other reasons, since after her snatching up several of them, I chose to pound it out of her, especially after she rolled over a bulldog on its back and was mashing it into the street, spinning it around by its throat.

So to the casual observer they see avoidance for sure, but that avoidance is not caused in any way because the dog is afraid of the other dogs, and they often infer that the dog is afraid of the other dogs, and hard to convince them that their dog is in immediate danger if they allow it to run up on us like that, when all they see is my dog in stress trying to contain her urge to snatch them up, and avoid what would follow if she did.


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

the question was never about getting a absolute evaluation of the pup itself or the training it has received (maybe ill try make it clearer next time) . the question was about what the body language it was exhibiting ment. 

licking the lips or yawning 
the tail 
the ears

some of the responses referred to those ques and thats wanted i wanted to LEARN

cheers


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

good topic for sure.

some signs to read for sure.

my dog yawns and licks her lips often when not under any stress at all in the house, laying around or being pet by me and the family, so it is all relative to the situation and the dog.


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Michael,i may be wrong but am i reading between the lines you think i am somehow criticizing you?
I am not.
Just to clarify ,if you take a young dog like that out in public and keep watching him he will sense that and his behavior will not be free from stress because of the handler.If you video it all there will also be pressure on the handler and this can lead to more pressure on the dog.
If i am finding somebody at fault it would be the handler of the pup but not knowing anything about the details it is impossible to judge and all one can do is observe and report.
I used to take my pups out in public a lot and i would go to a market and just stroll around and basically ignore the pup.
For him it is just another day and they will sense i am relaxed and so there is no need for him not to be.
I am saying it again,any dog is a dog first and they all have the same basic instincts.


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

^ thats very interesting so you think dogs are that sensitive to our body language that if we are tense they will pick up on it? even if you try to hide that from the dog. yea i try not to look at my dog but its sometime difficult not to take a quick look to see how he is dealing with the situation


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Michael Murphy said:


> ^ thats very interesting so you think dogs are that sensitive to our body language that if we are tense they will pick up on it? even if you try to hide that from the dog. yea i try not to look at my dog but its sometime difficult not to take a quick look to see how he is dealing with the situation


 
Dogs spend their whole lives unable to speak. They read body language and facial features like we talk.

Working a detection dog it is of paramount importance to run blind hides regularly, because no matter what you do, you'll likely be cuing your dog by searching more or less in an area where you've put a hide. Off leash is about the only way to get around that, and they can still pick up some intel from us from a great distance.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

My #2 daughter is a sign language interpreter. She taught her first dog, JRT/Border terrier, with a lot of her commands with sign language and I can tell you it went smoother then it did with vocal. 
The dog didn't have any hearing issues but she did it for fun.
She has a Chi dog now. :roll: I don't know where I went wrong. :lol:;-)


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

Interesting fact that struck me after Bob's post. That deaf/mutes are known as great dog trainers. I constantly tell clients to not talk so much. It's as if we are throwing marbles at them, they can't catch what we want.... #-o


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> I was trying to figure out if he had an e-collar on under the bandana because the dog looked stressed. At one point, he turns to look at/wags his tail at the child in the stroller and then quickly looks back at his handler while changing his body posture. I agree with whoever said it looks like the dog is feeling pressure from his handler. He doesn't seem to look as nervous about his surroundings as he does about what he's supposed to be doing. Also, at the end of the video, it looks like he twitches or scratches at his neck. He may not be wearing an e-collar but he certainly looks worried about something and is very calm/well-behaved for a young pup.


You have a good eye Ariel. The owner was a sit means sit guy.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Christopher Jones said:


> You have a good eye Ariel. The owner was a sit means sit guy.


I must be getting old? I remember Fred when his Pit Bull Maddy was still around and he had one facility in Las Vegas. Now he's got students in Australia? ;-)


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> My #2 daughter is a sign language interpreter. She taught her first dog, JRT/Border terrier, with a lot of her commands with sign language and I can tell you it went smoother then it did with vocal.
> The dog didn't have any hearing issues but she did it for fun.
> She has a Chi dog now. :roll: I don't know where I went wrong. :lol:;-)


"# 2 daughter" reminds me of the old Charlie Chan movies and his #1 Son ;-)


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

:lol: :lol:


There were seven of us. We would have felt all warm and fuzzy if Dad remembered birth order like that.

As it was, it was more like "Connie, Kathy, Jean ..... whoever you are, get me a beer. And turn up the TV."


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> my dog yawns and licks her lips often when not under any stress at all in the house, laying around or being pet by me and the family, so it is all relative to the situation and the dog.



Very different, as you say, reading what a dog does lying around the house.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> good topic for sure.
> 
> some signs to read for sure.
> 
> my dog yawns and licks her lips often when not under any stress at all in the house, laying around or being pet by me and the family, so it is all relative to the situation and the dog.


Maybe it doesn't like your handcream?


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> good topic for sure.
> 
> some signs to read for sure.
> 
> my dog yawns and licks her lips often when not under any stress at all in the house, laying around or being pet by me and the family, so it is all relative to the situation and the dog.


My Briard yawned when he wanted action, i.e a walk or a play. The yawn nearly ended up in a slight scream.

One of my cxurent dogs does this also without the scream. He also lips his licks when he's asleep.

Every physical motion of the dog must be vetted against the time and situation to be able to assess its meaning.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> good topic for sure.
> 
> some signs to read for sure.
> 
> my dog yawns and licks her lips often when not under any stress at all in the house, laying around or being pet by me and the family, so it is all relative to the situation and the dog.


 I'm sure you have had to reinforce some house rules at some point. Maybe the dog is stressed in the house trying to contain herself, just like she is with small dogs.


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## Justin White (Dec 7, 2012)

This dog is trained well by its owner. The sign of his ear everytime he saw other people is a sign of respect or greetings to others.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Justin White said:


> This dog is trained well by its owner. The sign of his ear everytime he saw other people is a sign of respect or greetings to others.


Could you elaborate on this a bit?


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Could you elaborate on this a bit?


It's part of Dutch culture Connie, The Japanese breeds bow, Italian ones give you a kiss on each cheek....Standard stuff.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

James Downey said:


> It's part of Dutch culture Connie, The Japanese breeds bow, Italian ones give you a kiss on each cheek....Standard stuff.


Oooohhhhhh. 


I feel like such a rube, not knowing this ......


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

In the summer when my dogs start wiggling their ears it's time to put a bit of fly repellent on them. I never gave a thought about them being respectful to the flies. 
:-k Come to think about it they show the same respect when it starts raining. :-k


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> In the summer when my dogs start wiggling their ears it's time to put a bit of fly repellent on them. I never gave a thought about them being respectful to the flies.
> :-k Come to think about it they show the same respect when it starts raining. :-k


But Bob .... yours aren't Dutch. It's a Holland thing.

Right, James?


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> But Bob .... yours aren't Dutch. It's a Holland thing.
> 
> Right, James?


Breeds from less privelaged cultures do not have the privelage of having gestures of respect. Instead they are more focused on utilitarian uses like repelling flies. Saw it on discovery.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

James Downey said:


> Breeds from less privelaged cultures do not have the privelage of having gestures of respect. Instead they are more focused on utilitarian uses like repelling flies. Saw it on discovery.



Not entirely true! I've had a couple of Kerry Blue terriers (Irish) in the past. Their way of showing respect was to buy you a pint after you got your butt kicked fighting with them. :-k ......or was that me dar sweet grand dad who told me that?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

I was impressed with dogs trained to open the refrigerator and bring the owner a beer. Now you're telling me there are dogs that will buy the beer too? ;-)


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

I thought the dog looked very neutral in the situation, far too much for a 5month old. If he had been all up in drive and all eyes on the handler I would have said the dog had received some very good motivational training.
As it goes I didn't pick up on the potential hidden ecollar but I did pick up on the dog being worried about something that didn't come from the environment around it and its handler.
I don't like this method of forced socialisation myself but each to their own I suppose.


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