# Bungee Lines



## kaiser wilhelm (Jun 21, 2008)

I have a problem with an 18 Month old Malinois, he is capable of biting deep and firm.However when doing sleeve work he will be hesitant coming in and wont bite full and deep, and will also relax his bite giving the sleeve up very easily. I was thinking of using a bungee line to help overcome the problem, but havent used one before.What length/strength of bungee is best, should it have a quick release clasp? Should I go back to starting with a bite bar, then soft sleeve, then schutzhund sleeve, as the bite improves? Can anyone give me some advice on exactly what is the best method of using the bungee line? A step by step explanation would be of great help. Or if anyone has a video feed link that shows it being used.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

> he is capable of biting deep and firm.However when doing sleeve work he will be hesitant coming in and wont bite full and deep


This sentence tells me that perhaps you should be evaluating why the dog is hesitating and not biting full. What is the decoy doing?

A bungie will strengthen a weak grip and make the dog try harder, but if the dog is having nerve issues with something the helper is doing then it won't fix anything. If a dog is capable of doing something but is choosing not to do it, you have to ask "why?"


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## kaiser wilhelm (Jun 21, 2008)

Hi Mike, I see where your coming from with your reply. I don't think it's a nerve issue, or the decoy/helper putting the dog off. It's as if he gets lazy, and doesnt get enough out of the bite. If you enter into a tug of war scenario with him using a bitebar, his bite is fine. Here obviously there is resistance and he has to work harder for the bitebar. But when I move to sleevework, he just doesnt put enough into it. Hence my thoughts on the bungee. Hope that helps a little..........


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

I agree with Mike on this. It is nerve related, but you also don't say how old the dog is and how the decoy is working the dog. If it has solid nerve and the foundation work is good, the grip will be good. If the decoy work is poor and the dog has issues, frontal bites take place, biting up and down the sleeve takes place, and the release is a sign of a poor comfort level with the fight or fight with the "prey" item. :-k 

As a decoy, I don't like the spring line, give me a cable or heavy nylon rope as a backtie. I want to know how far that little bugger can go and NOT transfer to "other" parts if discomfort kicks in!!! :mrgreen:


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Howard, the dog is 18 months old. First sentence in his post 



> But when I move to sleevework, he just doesnt put enough into it.


Thats exactly it. Putting on a sleeve adds stress to the dog so he becomes less intense, more hesitant, and bite quality goes down. If the foundation is not solid then the progression to the sleeve will become exactly what you are seeing.

How is the decoy facing the dog? What is he doing with the dog? What one person might perceive as "non threatening," a dog could perceive as being incredibly stressful if he is not used to working like that.

If the dog is unsure, and then you add additional resistance from the bungie line then it will be counter productive, because now you are making him work harder for something he's not sure he wants to deal with.

Edit: Just re-reading your post. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like his transition from bitebar (assumably the same thing as a bite-wedge??) to sleeve is also simultaneously a transition from working on a leash close to the handler, to being sent to the decoy at a distance without back pressure on his collar/harness? If this is the case, then you need to take some steps back. The dog is not ready to be working independently without the re-assurance from the handler at the other end of the leash. One thing at a time.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

I agree with Mike's last statement. Also, Has something traumatic happened to the dog while he was first put on the sleeve? Personally, before attributing this problem to genetics I'd look at the training progression first and take some steps back .

Just for kicks, tie a sleeve to a 6 ft lead and play prey games with him. Slowly get to a point where you have one end of the sleeve in hand while playing tug, then both ends in hand. See if there is any bad reactions and when. You can't fix the problem until you pinpoint where it begins. If there is no clear problem area it may just be poor training progression, or actual nerve problem if he won't get better.

Howard


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## Matt Hammond (Apr 11, 2006)

If we have dogs that are getting chewie or loose on the grip we will either take them back to a pillow and work to the sleeve slower. Alot of time if you take the dog off of his front feet, it makes him bite down harder to stay on then reward when he is full.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Back up. Rememer that frustration builds drive. You may even work him with the bite bar and make him miss, miss and miss some more without him getting a bite. Then bring the sleeve out after about a week and do the same thing, miss, miss, miss. Frustrate him. Then one day proof what you have done and give him a bite on the sleeve. Work it all in pray. Just a suggestion.


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## kaiser wilhelm (Jun 21, 2008)

Hi mike, gotcha, the dog must want to bite badly enough before placing any more resriction on his ability to bite by using a bungee. I will move back a few levels, and try to increase the prey drive. The dog will play and bite with his bite toy/wedge, if the handler is playing with him. He can actually lift him off the ground while he grips the bite wedge, and he will not let go. So no problem with his ability to bite, perhaps its more to do with his confidence when faced with biting the helper. Perhaps a more subtle approach is required from the helper? Thanks for your advice...........


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

We have a German Shepherd here that is handler focused. It only works if directed. The handler also has a VERY stern voice. This is a defensive dog. It will bite in prey but at 5 yo has not played much of the game. Going back will help this GS relearn the moves for independent success. 

The 18 month old dog, if it will play with the owner and the owner can lift the dog and tug and the dog stays on, isn't this a foundation/comfort issue which deals with the decoy/helper? Some place in the begining stages maybe excess stress/defense was put on too early? Popping off is a comfort issue. 

My female Bouvier will bite, she growls on the sleeve due to stress and the feeling of a fast win didn't happen. As the decoy looks away, goes to the ground, and then slips the sleeve she bolds up. HER strength was in the decoys weakness. Small victories, short to longer fight times, and winning the bite object seem to me to be elements for success.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

kaiser wilhelm said:


> Hi mike, gotcha, the dog must want to bite badly enough before placing any more resriction on his ability to bite by using a bungee. I will move back a few levels, and try to increase the prey drive. The dog will play and bite with his bite toy/wedge, if the handler is playing with him. He can actually lift him off the ground while he grips the bite wedge, and he will not let go. So no problem with his ability to bite, perhaps its more to do with his confidence when faced with biting the helper. Perhaps a more subtle approach is required from the helper? Thanks for your advice...........


Everybody who has responded has more experience than me but I want to investigate where the issues started so we can get you back to that point. That said, I think the dog has not been progressed properly and hasn't been taught to work through pressure OR the dog simply doesn't have the nerve to do the work. Just because a dog will bite a sleeve doesn't mean he's ready for it. I really think your case is a training issue.

How do you play with your dog and how often do you do it? How do you train? Positive Motivation? Compulsion?

When biting the wedge can the dog work through the pressure of a hand in his face or above his head? Will the dog keep his grip with the wedge close to the helper's body? Can you give light hand smacks to the sides or withers without the dog having issue? Have you even done these simple things during foundational confidence building?

How is his barking? Do you hear a crack in the bark when the helper approaches or is getting too close? What are his eyes doing when the dog is biting? Is he looking side to side as if he's thinking about escaping? Are they huge as if he's thinking OH SHEEEEET... Is he getting growly? What is the helper doing during this if it's happening?

Teach the dog that the only way to make the pressure go away is to bite through it with a full bite but figure out where that threshold is and build from there. Start with light pressure and then release it through prey. If your dog has nerve for the work then you should notice a huge change in just a few sessions if you're working the dog correctly.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

*Chris many VERY nice points you brought up*... All well worth looking into as they are signals of K-9 comfort/stress. Is that a new Rottie pic I see, or a short ear Dobie? :lol:


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> *Chris many VERY nice points you brought up*... All well worth looking into as they are signals of K-9 comfort/stress. Is that a new Rottie pic I see, or a short ear Dobie? :lol:



New rottie pic


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

kaiser wilhelm said:


> I have a problem with an 18 Month old Malinois, he is capable of biting deep and firm.However when doing sleeve work he will be hesitant coming in and wont bite full and deep, and will also relax his bite giving the sleeve up very easily. I was thinking of using a bungee line to help overcome the problem, but havent used one before.What length/strength of bungee is best, should it have a quick release clasp? Should I go back to starting with a bite bar, then soft sleeve, then schutzhund sleeve, as the bite improves? Can anyone give me some advice on exactly what is the best method of using the bungee line? A step by step explanation would be of great help. Or if anyone has a video feed link that shows it being used.


I re-read this post and something hit me square between the eyes...

Kaiser, you're working the dog by yourself aren't ye? 

Don't teach a dog to bite if you don't know what you're doing. [-X

Please find a club to help you.


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

kaiser wilhelm said:


> I have a problem with an 18 Month old Malinois, he is capable of biting deep and firm.However when doing sleeve work he will be hesitant coming in and wont bite full and deep, and will also relax his bite giving the sleeve up very easily. I was thinking of using a bungee line to help overcome the problem, but havent used one before.What length/strength of bungee is best, should it have a quick release clasp? Should I go back to starting with a bite bar, then soft sleeve, then schutzhund sleeve, as the bite improves? Can anyone give me some advice on exactly what is the best method of using the bungee line? A step by step explanation would be of great help. Or if anyone has a video feed link that shows it being used.


 
Kaiser,
nobody can tell you how to train and problem solve training issues or evaluate the dog temperament on line, without seeing the dog.

Find a club near you, with members who are successful on their own chosen sport, watch a few training sessions and if you like the "picture" you see let them help you.

Max


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Bungees help create faster entries. Your problem will just get worse with the use of a bungee.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Max Orsi said:


> Kaiser,
> nobody can tell you how to train and problem solve training issues or evaluate the dog temperament on line, without seeing the dog.
> 
> Find a club near you, with members who are successful on their own chosen sport, watch a few training sessions and if you like the "picture" you see let them help you.
> ...


Best advice given I would take it.


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