# To not train!



## Greg Long (Mar 27, 2006)

To own one of these powerful breeds and not train them is (IMO) at the very least cruel to the dog and at the most very dangerous.
I began working with a 5 year old Dutchie this week with almost no training whatsoever.This means no control and no real concept of who the leader is.This is a very strong dog with a naturally crushing bite.I dont own him and Im not going to tell his breeding but he is bred very very well.
This dog probably had more potential than any dog I have ever worked with but now he is dog aggressive and mature and totally untrained.
This is one of my pet peeves and I just have to rant a little.Someone has no business owning one of these dogs and not devoting a big part of there time to training.Noone has a right to own a true working dog if they cant or wont work it.We all have a responsibility to these dogs.If you cant live up to that responsibility...hand the lead to someone who can.This is what is wrong with the Pitt Bull breed today.We have weak handlers and weak breeders with weaker mentalities.
I think that most people that want a PPD or pet from a strong working line have no idea how powerful these dogs can be.I have a 14 week old Dutchie pup here at the moment that someone couldnt handle!A 14 week old pup!It has already sent someone to the hospital for stitches!Now imagine this same pup at 2 years old in the same home.There is nothing wrong with the pup except it was sent to the wrong person who thought they wanted a Dutchie.This is in fact a very nice pup that now has a shakey foundation started.Be careful what you wish for people!


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## Alicia Mertz (Mar 28, 2006)

I couldn't agree more. I keep stressing that to people who either a) want to come up and "play" with my dogs or b) people who say, "Ooooooh. I want a puppy! Are you going to breed him?" Not to say that these dogs can't make great additions to the family (mine are wonderful companions), but they are not, in my eyes, "pets". They're powerful working animals with a great deal of potential that can go either way - either very good or very bad.

I know for a fact that Jaeger would be a dangerous dog if he wasn't as well trained and respectful of me as he is (and he could probably stand some more training! :lol. He absolutely would have hurt someone by now. What's more, keeping him in work is beneficial for me AND for him. He's far more content when he's asked to do something.

No way are these dogs meant to be someone's toy or an afterthought. They require and DESERVE a hell of a lot more commitment than that, IMO.


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## Jose Alberto Reanto (Apr 6, 2006)

You said it, Greg. The dog may be too much dog for its handler. Maybe a pyscho dog or an unstable dog of bad breeding as far as its owner is concerned. Its not a dog for everyone though it may make a good and dependable protection dog, if handled and trained properly. The dog may just need a *firm leader*.

Thanks goodness that dog found its way with you. Who knows what that dog will be if passed or sold to another owner, as usually the case. You may hear it shot in the head one day.

Keep on training. It's not too late.... 




"*The success for all employment as an assistant of man depends in the first place on expert leadeship, whereby the dog is always put in just the right place, and where the man is so well-acquainted with the peculiarities of the dog that he always knows how to interpret correctly the meaning of the dog's signs. A leader without expert knowledge of and affection for the dog will achieve only mediocre results with the best-trained dog: while an expert dog-loving leader can achieve good results with a dog of only fair capacity. In other words, the whole question is not only a question of the dog, but quite as much, if not more so, a question of the fitness of the leader*."


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## Sarah Hall (Apr 12, 2006)

That little dutchie is VERY lucky it found you, Greg! I've seen firsthand how, err.. rambunctious they are. :lol: I couldn't agree more with you about the importance of a working dog being handled by somone that knows what they need to do and does it! I don't let my fiance attempt to work Carbon because he (my fiance) just is too soft and doesn't demand the kind of respect that I do. The only real interaction they have is when I'm not home and he takes Carbon out to go potty, or if Carbon has some free time inside the house to be pet. Otherwise Carbon would be extremely dangerous in his hands alone. This is also why it looks like Hemi is going to be my dog as well. He is already showing aggression towards my fiance (who doesn't seem to care, but I would whoop that dog's little rear if he showed an ounce of disrespect/aggression towards me) and a real hankering to bite anything that moves (especially toes and pant legs :twisted: ), and already at 6 weeks old is a handful for my fiance.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Greg Long said:


> I have a 14 week old Dutchie pup here at the moment that someone couldnt handle!A 14 week old pup!It has already sent someone to the hospital for stitches!


Sounds about right for a dutchie, lil ****heads that they are


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Greg Long said:


> To own one of these powerful breeds and not train them is (IMO) at the very least cruel to the dog and at the most very dangerous........


For many reasons.

A study by Purdue* in the late 1990s showed that owners who did not train their dogs were three and a half times more likely to surrender the dog to a shelter.




*cited in The Importance of Animal Companionship, Purdue University Press, rev. 1996


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

To add a bit more...one more story.

I trained a great male Malinois PPD (of my breeding) for a now-retired miltary man two years ago. The dog is now four years old. My friend is no longer as active as he once was due to health problems, so he hasn't worked the dog, and he tried to make the dog into a house dog...but the rest of the family didn't know how to...

Yesterday, my friend had a big problem...and today...in one hour, I'll be on my way to pick up the dog. The choice for my friend was to euthanize or give him to me.

I'll see how the dog is and report back with some pictures.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Andres Martin said:


> To add a bit more...one more story.
> 
> I trained a great male Malinois PPD (of my breeding) for a now-retired miltary man two years ago. The dog is now four years old. My friend is no longer as active as he once was due to health problems, so he hasn't worked the dog, and he tried to make the dog into a house dog...but the rest of the family didn't know how to...
> 
> ...


I would like very much to follow this rehab, Andres, if you feel like letting us do that.


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## Jose Alberto Reanto (Apr 6, 2006)

Rehab can be a painstaking job. Test-of-wills may be common between the new handler and the dog. If the foundation of the dog is different, one can only do so much. The dog, once stressed, reverts to its foundation. In rehab, it may be wise to begin from scratch to solidly address all issues of the dog first before actual training can even begin.

My problem is that some dogs (of my breeding) are returned to me for being too much of a dog for its previous owner. On several occassions, I bought the dogs back, as the dogs were already being advertised for sale. Lately, I 've got a pup returned as well, after only a month of stay with its previous owner. I've gone tired of rehabilitating dogs/pups sold to owners who thought they're strong enough to handle such dogs. Come to think of it, these owners have handled similar breeds in the past. But some can be great pretenders.

Anyway, all problems have their solutions and returned dogs are happier with their new but serious owners, who loved and depended on them well.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Greg Long said:


> This dog probably had more potential than any dog I have ever worked with


what makes you say that?


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

Hey Al...
I worked that dog as a pup...and trained him as a youngster. No rehab will be necessary...but leadership yes!


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## Jose Alberto Reanto (Apr 6, 2006)

Andres Martin said:


> Hey Al...
> I worked that dog as a pup...and trained him as a youngster. No rehab will be necessary...but leadership yes!



Good for you, Andres. That's exactly why I opt to re-acquire the dogs. They have my foundation. But when the dog acquired as a pup is returned an adult, can't help it but need to get the dog back to foundation training. There's kinda like a lot of catching up to do on that dog that it's best to just begin anew. The very reason or reasons why the dog was returned may have a root cause too deep for any "patch-up" job. Besides, who does "patch-up" jobs??? :wink: 

Best regards...


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## Greg Long (Mar 27, 2006)

I have been working with this older Dutchie quite a bit the last few days.I will only be able to go so far with him.He has been doing pretty much whatever he wants his whole life.At least he is improving.
My 15 week old Dutchie(Zarco) however is awesome and will try anything I ask him to do.i started him at 8 weeks and I cant believe the things he is doing already for me.


I recently placed a GSD in a home as a pet.The dog was young and I didnt think he would work for me but I did have quite a bit of training time in him.I told them I would take him back in a second if they had any trouble at all or if they couldnt handle him.Even though the dog has the foundation I put on him he is still alot of dog for the average person and requires a responsible owner.I try to stay in contact with them and told them they could come out anytime and train with me.I feel much more comfortable with people that actually let me help them work with their new dog.I am thinking of making it a requirement.


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## Guest (Sep 10, 2006)

Greg, I think I've made my feelings quite clear on returning ANY of those dogs to their owner :wink: . Let me know when it's ok for me to call the authorities....I'm waaaiiiting.... :wink: 
I'm glad to see you doing some ranting of your own; I was beginning to lose faith. :wink: 

Maybe if you can show that horrendous creature what these dogs are capable of, and the error of it's ways will be apparent, it will refrain from getting any dogs in the future. 

Look how far you've come in just a couple weeks; they even LOOK different than when I saw them. That's ridiculous, and the lowest form of cruelty to treat them so poorly that just a few weeks of decent care and training absolutely TRANSFORMS them. Just f*&^ing sick. Sorry to rant  It just pisses me off to think about what's going to happen to them in the future. :x

p.s. "Pit Bull"


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## Greg Long (Mar 27, 2006)

Come on..dont hold back! Tell us how you really feel.  

Environment can literally make or break a working dog.Neither training or genetics can undo the effects of a negative environment early in life.

Just take Jenni for example :!:


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