# Perfect Long Down.



## James Downey

So, I seen a video somewhere of Joker LDS and Mark Sacciao (sorry mark if I butchered your name). where Joker at the AWDF in the pouring rain for 10 solid minutes, in a long down. Stared at the blind as if he was trying to move it with his mind. Did not move a muscle. 

this is the end result. We will start with this being the goal. 

I can get a dog to lay to down, and not move for 10 minutes. But to do it in drive the whole time, while being bomb proof is another story.

A perfect long down. No moving, and staring at the blind with intensity. How do you suppose one could create these behaviors?


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## Edward Egan

One method I've seen used is to have a long line run to the blind. The moment the dog looks away it gets a pop on the leash. It would take lots and lots of patients, and a good dog of course.


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## Thomas Barriano

I use an e-collar with a tone button and rear view bike mirror on my glasses. Start outside the blind with your back towards the dog
Give a verbal uh uh if your dog isn't looking at you, paired with a tone. Eventually fade the verbal correction and just remind him with the tone. Nowhere near as solid as Mark Saccoccio/Joker
but the bike mirror is a pretty effective tool to watch what you're dog is doing behind you without turning around :=)


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## Brian Anderson

Thomas Barriano said:


> I use an e-collar with a tone button and rear view bike mirror on my glasses. Start outside the blind with your back towards the dog
> Give a verbal uh uh if your dog isn't looking at you, paired with a tone. Eventually fade the verbal correction and just remind him with the tone. Nowhere near as solid as Mark Saccoccio/Joker
> but the bike mirror is a pretty effective tool to watch what you're dog is doing behind you without turning around :=)


Thomas I figured in all decency I would let you know that I am stealing that bit with the bike mirror lol. Thats a good idea and I can see that working.


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## Thomas Barriano

Brian Anderson said:


> Thomas I figured in all decency I would let you know that I am stealing that bit with the bike mirror lol. Thats a good idea and I can see that working.


You're more then welcome to steal it.
I've stolen most of my training ideas ;-)


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## Dave Colborn

I would call the guy that got the behavior and ask him how he did it. Barring that I would:

Back tie the dog and have a line to the blind off the pinch. Does the dog know an ecollar correction for a down?


If the dog shows you that much intensity to begin with, then variable reward is the way to get him to keep it. IE step out, walk back and reward at the dog at 15 seconds, 30 seconds, a minute, 15 seconds, 1:30, 2:00, :30, etc. Until you get to ten minutes. Then I would slowly increase the distraction starting with a trial steward walking, continuing to a marching band or a 747 landing, so he has an opportunity to see it, and correct for inattention. 


Good luck. Please come train my boxer when you are done!!!


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## Paul R. Konschak

The dog is staring into the blind because of expectation. The dog is expecting the handler to come out and interact with the dog. (play tug, play ball, etc.) Start with only a few steps away from the dog and then gradually move into the blind and extend the length of time the dog must wait. You should try to reward the dog before he looks away instead of correcting him for looking away. Have the dog want to do it. The handler becomes more interesting than the other distractions. I was at the event you spoke about. That is my all time favorite OB routine because of the way the dog reacted to the weather. Carrie Silva also had a very nice OB in the same weather.


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## Dave Colborn

Paul R. Konschak said:


> You should try to reward the dog before he looks away instead of correcting him for looking away.



This is great if the dog will do it. Be prepared for both reward and correction, and as stated start small and move slowly.


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## rick smith

that type of down is impressive but it certainly is not "magical" by any means.....if you break it down, it's pretty simple

Dave mentioned a couple ways to GET there, 
....and i can sure tell you (or anyone else) why you CAN'T get the same performance without needing to see the dog :

- if your dog knows a ROCK solid 8min down/stay, that is because 8min is how long you trained it under distraction.....if it breaks b4 eight, it just means you haven't proofed it enough....adding duration should be an obvious part of proofing this OB and i personally would train it for twice the time it needs in competition

....most owners don't have the patience and don't add short intervals when they add duration, and of course we all decide at some point when we feel we've added enough proofing  ((can't always think of all the possible "murphies" ))

not necessarily "hard", just time consuming, so it boils down to how much time do you want to devote to that OB, and what is the result you want ?


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## Brian Anderson

Its a good post James. That is not a hard thing to teach. Break it down into pcs like everyone is saying. His focus on the blind is a natural outcome of the conditioning. Like Paul says he is watching the blind and waiting for the action like he does every time they work the exercise. The dog is committed to the down and stay because he is a good dog and has had really good training.


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## Lindsay Janes

Dave Colborn said:


> I would call the guy that got the behavior and ask him how he did it. Barring that I would:
> 
> Back tie the dog and have a line to the blind off the pinch. Does the dog know an ecollar correction for a down?
> 
> 
> If the dog shows you that much intensity to begin with, then variable reward is the way to get him to keep it. IE step out, walk back and reward at the dog at 15 seconds, 30 seconds, a minute, 15 seconds, 1:30, 2:00, :30, etc. Until you get to ten minutes. Then I would slowly increase the distraction starting with a trial steward walking, continuing to a marching band or a 747 landing, so he has an opportunity to see it, and correct for inattention.
> 
> 
> Good luck. Please come train my boxer when you are done!!!


 I personally like this advice. When I first teach Teddy the watch command, this is exactly what I did, but I never corrected him for his inattention. I treated it as a game for him. When he glanced, he lost the game/ his reward. We would start all over again and go back to square one. Eventually he built up a really nice focus on me.


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## James Downey

Paul R. Konschak said:


> The dog is staring into the blind because of expectation. The dog is expecting the handler to come out and interact with the dog. (play tug, play ball, etc.) Start with only a few steps away from the dog and then gradually move into the blind and extend the length of time the dog must wait. You should try to reward the dog before he looks away instead of correcting him for looking away. Have the dog want to do it. The handler becomes more interesting than the other distractions. I was at the event you spoke about. That is my all time favorite OB routine because of the way the dog reacted to the weather. Carrie Silva also had a very nice OB in the same weather.


 
I think Paul maybe on the right track.


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## Jackie Lockard

Paul R. Konschak said:


> The dog is staring into the blind because of expectation. The dog is expecting the handler to come out and interact with the dog. (play tug, play ball, etc.) Start with only a few steps away from the dog and then gradually move into the blind and extend the length of time the dog must wait. You should try to reward the dog before he looks away instead of correcting him for looking away. Have the dog want to do it. The handler becomes more interesting than the other distractions. I was at the event you spoke about. That is my all time favorite OB routine because of the way the dog reacted to the weather. Carrie Silva also had a very nice OB in the same weather.


Exactly. Correcting the dog for looking away is building conflict and avoidance. If you want to build DRIVE you must build drive. Start slow, work up. Eventually you will get a dog that can be left 100% capped if you're good enough. Lofty goal but I think it's a worthwhile one. Pretty good insurance if you're second on and you want to make sure you go to the start line with a pumped dog.

This was the AWDF in 2009? There were a few impressive performances that year, especially the dogs working through that downpour.


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## Thomas Barriano

Anticipation of reward is certainly one way of training that type of performance. However, I had a chance to work with Mark Saccoccio a couple of times at Tim and Lori Crusers place when he was trialing Joker. Mark is twenty something but he's an old
style trainer. He apprenticed with Dean Calderon when Dean was
in Oklahoma and spent sometime in Europe with Fritz Biehler (sp)
Mark is a good trainer because he is great at reading dogs and
he has impeccable timing with reward AND punishment.
ONE of the reasons Joker stays in a down in the pouring rain is he knows he doesn't have any choice. He stays, he'll be rewarded. If he doesn't there are consequences. Black and White


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## Laura Bollschweiler

Jackie Lockard said:


> Exactly. Correcting the dog for looking away is building conflict and avoidance. ? .


But if the dog knows it's supposed to not look away and it does and gets corrected
for it, if timing is good, isn't that pretty black and white?

Laura


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## Jackie Lockard

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> But if the dog knows it's supposed to not look away and it does and gets corrected
> for it, if timing is good, isn't that pretty black and white?
> 
> Laura


It is...but it's not doing to keep a dog in a long down *in drive* for ten minutes. I don't have a problem with corrections, but if you're going for a long down in drive then that's not the way to do. JMO


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## Thomas Barriano

Jackie Lockard said:


> It is...but it's not doing to keep a dog in a long down *in drive* for ten minutes. I don't have a problem with corrections, but if you're going for a long down in drive then that's not the way to do. JMO



Where does anyone get the idea that Joker was "in drive"
during the long down? I see it as a obedience exercise.


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## Jackie Lockard

James Downey said:


> where Joker at the AWDF in the pouring rain for 10 solid minutes, in a long down. Stared at the blind as if he was trying to move it with his mind. Did not move a muscle.
> 
> this is the end result. We will start with this being the goal.
> 
> I can get a dog to lay to down, and not move for 10 minutes. But *to do it in drive the whole time*, while being bomb proof is another story.
> 
> A perfect long down. No moving, and staring at the blind* with intensity*. How do you suppose one could create these behaviors?


I was talking about this, not necessary Joker. I don't know the dog or handler personally. (And I remember the dog doing the long down while it started pouring, the handler who was paired with Carrie, DID in fact move on the long down. I don't even know if this is the dog in question!)


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## Paul R. Konschak

Thomas,

Who trained Joker to a schutzhund III?


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## Thomas Barriano

Paul R. Konschak said:


> Thomas,
> 
> Who trained Joker to a schutzhund III?


Mark with help from Dean Calderon but Jokers owner started him.
Joker wasn't HOT


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## James Downey

Thomas Barriano said:


> Mark with help from Dean Calderon but Jokers owner started him.
> Joker wasn't HOT


You sure about that. 

I guess he's not HOT when handled by Marc, but sure is when he is handled by Brittany. Brittany Laramore put all the titles on Joker. I was training with her while she did it.


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## Thomas Barriano

James Downey said:


> You sure about that.
> 
> I guess he's not HOT when handled by Marc, but sure is when he is handled by Brittany. Brittany Laramore put all the titles on Joker. I was training with her while she did it.



Not positive. I knew that Brittany did the foundation and at least Jokers SchH I but I didn't think she put the SchH III on him.
Mark certainly is the one that handled and trained him to be a
World Class competition dog.


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## Christopher Smith

Thomas Barriano said:


> Not positive. I knew that Brittany did the foundation and at least Jokers SchH I but I didn't think she put the SchH III on him.
> Mark certainly is the one that handled and trained him to be a
> World Class competition dog.


Thomas you don't know what you are talking about. Brittany trained Joker to IPO3, took helper's choice at the 2007 AWMA National (71-90-91). The dog was badass and world class waaaaaayyyyy before Mark trialed him. The only reason Mark got the dog is because Brittany (17 or 18 yrs old) didn't have the finances to go to big competitions.


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## Thomas Barriano

Brittany Laramore AWMA 71 90 91 252
Mark Saccoccio AWDF 95 96 99 290 1st place, HIT, High Protection, High Malinois


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## Christopher Smith

Thomas Barriano said:


> Brittany Laramore AWMA 71 90 91 252
> Mark Saccoccio AWDF 95 96 99 290 1st place, HIT, High Protection, High Malinois


WTF is your point Thomas? Are you trying to hype Mark or tear down Brittany?


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## Thomas Barriano

Christopher Smith said:


> WTF is your point Thomas? Are you trying to hype Mark or tear down Brittany?


WTF is YOUR point Chris?
The OP referenced Jokers 2008 AWDF performance when he was
handled by Mark Saccoccio. Mark doesn't need any hype. I don't know Brittany. You mentioned her and how she trained Joker to a SchH III. So what? The AWDF performance was done by Mark
and HE finished Jokers training to World Class performance.


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## Paul R. Konschak

Thomas Barriano said:


> Anticipation of reward is certainly one way of training that type of performance. However, I had a chance to work with Mark Saccoccio a couple of times at Tim and Lori Crusers place when he was trialing Joker. Mark is twenty something but he's an old
> style trainer. He apprenticed with Dean Calderon when Dean was
> in Oklahoma and spent sometime in Europe with Fritz Biehler (sp)
> Mark is a good trainer because he is great at reading dogs and
> he has impeccable timing with reward AND punishment.
> ONE of the reasons Joker stays in a down in the pouring rain is he knows he doesn't have any choice. He stays, he'll be rewarded. If he doesn't there are consequences. Black and White


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## Paul R. Konschak

My point is that you had a chance to see the dog work with Mark a couple of times. You did not see Brittany trial or train the dog. HOW do you know how it was trained? BECAUSE you saw a few training sessions after the dog had been on the world team. I thinik Mark is a great handler. I think only time will prove if Mark is a great trainer. My origianl point was how to train this behavior. I believe it was done with a reward based system to gain the focus on the blind. I do not believe that any punishment can be brought into play until the dog clearly understands the situation. Have you ever trained with someone that had a long down like this? I have. The way I explained it, is what I was shown and observed. The reason the person did this is because the dog was unruly in the long down and the punishment methonds like a long line and ecollar did not fix it for a trial. Then he tried this method. It worked for him. I personally have never tried it because my dogs have been calm on the long down and the added focus does not receive more points. When the judging starts to require this or the rest of my OB is perfect, I will begin to train for it.


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## Laura Bollschweiler

Well, I guess your original question is answered, then, Jim. You saw Brittany train the dog. How did she teach the down that you saw at the AWDF? 

Laura


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## James Downey

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> Well, I guess your original question is answered, then, Jim. You saw Brittany train the dog. How did she teach the down that you saw at the AWDF?
> 
> Laura


Magic, I think she used Magic.


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## Thomas Barriano

James,

I guess I missed the purpose of your original post?
You asked how Mark got the "perfect long down" at the 2008
AWDF and then next day you're telling us how you saw Jokers
owner Brittany Laramore train it ?
I make a distinction between foundation training and proofing.
Brittany may have taught Joker all the exercises and even titled him to SchH III BUT the 2008 AWDF Championship performance
was MAINLY Mark's training/proofing not just his handling.


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## Ryan Chester

... phony log-in post removed .....


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## James Downey

Thomas Barriano said:


> James,
> 
> I guess I missed the purpose of your original post?
> You asked how Mark got the "perfect long down" at the 2008
> AWDF and then next day you're telling us how you saw Jokers
> owner Brittany Laramore train it ?
> I make a distinction between foundation training and proofing.
> Brittany may have taught Joker all the exercises and even titled him to SchH III BUT the 2008 AWDF Championship performance
> was MAINLY Mark's training/proofing not just his handling.


I did not ask how marc got the down.

I asked how YOU would get that behavior. My purpose was to stimulate conversation about training. 

Whether Marc, Brittney or Santa trained Joker is actually moot to the question.

And the insinuations that because I trained with Joker, and am asking the question I have some devious intention or I really am that stupid....is a little ****ing absurd...grow the **** up.


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## Thomas Barriano

_...remove quote of phony log-in ....._




"Ryan"

I said "mainly" not all
Do an intro (required) before you start posting again.


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## Sara Waters

I was watching a program on television called send in the dogs about police dogs in Australia. Before they pass into becoming a police dog one of the tests is a 10 minute long down with their handlers out of sight, if they move before their handlers return they fail. 

Two of dogs they filmed for the program were male GSDS undergoing their final accreditiation assessment. They were in the down position, alert and firmly focussed on where their handlers had dissapeared by jumping over a fence which was at considerable distance from where the dogs were downed. They both stayed in that position completely focussed untill their handler returned. 

I dont know how exactly the police dogs were trained but from watching the tests one of which involved a gun firing blanks, it seemed to involve a favourite toy. They had to find a person hidden in a house as one of the tests and as soon as they indicated where the person was hiding the hidden person threw out a tug type kong toy.


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## Christopher Smith

Thomas Barriano said:


> WTF is YOUR point Chris?


I already told you.



Christopher Smith said:


> Thomas you don't know what you are talking about.


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## Thomas Barriano

Christopher Smith said:


> I already told you.


NO Chris

Don't take sentences out of context and pick and choose what to quote
**************************************************
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christopher Smith View Post
WTF is your point Thomas? Are you trying to hype Mark or tear down Brittany?
**************************************************
>Was your original post, to which I replied
**************************************************
WTF is YOUR point Chris?
The OP referenced Jokers 2008 AWDF performance when he was handled by Mark Saccoccio. Mark doesn't need any hype. I don't know Brittany. You mentioned her and how she trained Joker to a SchH III. So what? The AWDF performance was done by Mark and HE finished Jokers training to World Class performance.
**************************************************


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## Christopher Smith

Christopher Smith said:


> Thomas you don't know what you are talking about.


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## Thomas Barriano

Brittany Laramore AWMA 71 90 91 252
Mark Saccoccio AWDF 95 96 99 290 1st place, HIT, High Protection, High Malinois


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## maggie fraser

Sara Waters said:


> Two of dogs they filmed for the program were male GSDS undergoing their final accreditiation assessment. They were in the down position, alert and firmly focussed on where their handlers had dissapeared by jumping over a fence which was at considerable distance from where the dogs were downed. They both stayed in that position completely focussed untill their handler returned.


That's how they train here in working trials....sometimes you can have half a dozen or more dogs in a ten minute down/handler out of sight all at the same time....all focused. My dog was doing it comfortably by the age of 1 yr, isolated, and in a group, always retaining focus. I didn't think it was that hard to train as such.


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## James Downey

And the learning has stopped.


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## rick smith

maggie....
i have trouble getting a ten min down with focus out of a dog with distractions 

re: "My dog was doing it comfortably by the age of 1 yr, isolated, and in a group, always retaining focus. I didn't think it was that hard to train as such."
- what specifically were the steps you took with this dog that made it easy ?


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## Sara Waters

rick smith said:


> maggie....
> i have trouble getting a ten min down with focus out of a dog with distractions
> 
> re: "My dog was doing it comfortably by the age of 1 yr, isolated, and in a group, always retaining focus. I didn't think it was that hard to train as such."
> - what specifically were the steps you took with this dog that made it easy ?


 
When I watch on occassion the UD and open dogs doing their downs in less than ideal conditions they generally do it pretty well. I rarely see them break. Some of them are real youngsters 12-18 months old.

A friend of mine has one. Her dog will down for as long as she is asked to and will remain alert and focussed although not required. My friend trained her by slowly increasing the length of the down and rewarding with her favourite toy. She took her to all sorts of situations and got me to make banging noises on the fence and run past with my dogs etc. She always set her up so she would mostly succeed and slowly increased the time and introduced distractions. She puts a lot of time into training and the dog is veryquick to learn. I have never seen her dog break a stay in a trial. The dog is high drive and is a fantastic obedience and agility dog, just loves to work, and has natural focus. 

My cattle dogs will stare at the point where I dissapeared and wont take their eyes off that spot, because they know that that is where I will re emerge. Although I havent really worked with a long down so I doubt they would stay that long before coming to look for me. I only got up to about 5 minutes with them and decided to concentrate on agility. I cant stay still for 10 minutes either LOL too nerve wracking. Although I think from memory the down is 7 minutes.


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## maggie fraser

rick smith said:


> maggie....
> i have trouble getting a ten min down with focus out of a dog with distractions
> 
> re: "My dog was doing it comfortably by the age of 1 yr, isolated, and in a group, always retaining focus. I didn't think it was that hard to train as such."
> - what specifically were the steps you took with this dog that made it easy ?


I'll have to think very methodically about this, not one of my better attributes Lol.

A down was his very first formal school lesson at age three months, in a pretty intimidating environment . By that I mean, a large indoor class, very busy with quite a lot of tension in the place, and some obviously not so friendly dogs. It was an old school ex police/military training regime with a strict no treat or lure policy.

We were barked orders . After making a couple of turns around the hall as a group we were instructed to grasp the near side fore and off side hind, and jerk the legs from under whilst saying down. It was a hard floor. I think the impact of him suddenly hitting the ground hard, and perhaps also realising it was a better place to be than being hustled around the hall, I had attributed to him staying put without taking his eyes off me.

So that was how he learned to down very quickly. I left that group within a few weeks, trying all others I could find, so there were lots of new training venues, dogs, I would always put him in a down wherever we went..no leash. We progressed to working trials control at six months where the training was great fun for the dogs, training outside in a group and the down stays were covered regularly with distractions, mainly other dogs being walked or run by closely. In additional exercises, the dog may have been put in a down, and then called or signalled from a distance to come, maintaining his attention at all times. We also did many exercises on heeling with focus in opposite direction to the oncoming dog. The down stays were just gradually extended until all were comfortable at ten mins...it wasn't a drama.

On going to another indoor club on alternate days, I've seen him accosted on more than one occasion by a gsd bitch on one occasion jumping all over his head trying to flirt, and another trying to play, he still didn't take his eyes off the door.

I then started building his drive for tracking, but couldn't find a post in the field I was comfortable would hold him, so I would use our sit stay, which would build his drive. He would scream quite a lot initially on release as he was having to exercise such restraint, he knew he was going to be released to go and find his toy...always. So, he has never been on a back tie.

He's been in a lot of different environments with new dogs etc. and the down stay helps him keep it together especially if there is a lot going on. That's what I had thought anyway.
I do not recall him ever breaking a long down.....ever, not once. He has never been back tied, long lined etc. I've had him on the schH field with a few other dogs in training, not just one, and he has always been very focused.

As much as I hate to say it, I think his very first lesson has been key. I hope that answers your question, it's a bit long winded I know.


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## Connie Sutherland

Thomas Barriano said:


> "Ryan"
> 
> Do an intro (required) ....


And in fact, "Ryan," never mind! [-X




And back to the long down.....


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## rick smith

Tx Maggie and Sara...lotta good sh..t there and since it didn't look shoveled, that means i need to actually read it and absorb it b4 i bury my foot in my mouth 

great thing about this wonderful internet magic ...... it'll do a granite solid long stay until i want it to light up instantly


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## ann schnerre

here is one of the most important things i've learned, and it would apply to the long down especially: "TDD", Time, Distance, Distraction. increase only one of the three at a time. it works!


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## Dale Pitts

I will say this,
I live in Oklahoma and had the great pleasure of training with Dean and Mark, and would be fortunate to count them both as friends. 
I do know that Joker was trained and shown originally by Brittany, but was then given to mark to "fine tune" and be shown in the worlds arena. This was done because Mark is an incredibly gifted trainer, and being at the time he lived with and mentored with Dean Calderon, only helped to make him and Joker better. Now while the dog absolutely had some great training on him and was definately a great sport Mal, Mark and Dean did fine tune the dog, and make it even better. SO I would say that both the owner of the dog, and later handler both did an incredible job with the dog and made a world class sport dog out of him. And yes the long down was taught as an obedience exercise, the dog knew to look at the blind Mark was behind, and if he did this he was rewarded, if he moved, he was corrected. 

Just some insight and an opinion.


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## Thomas Barriano

Hey Dale

That pretty much confirms what I said about who trained the "perfect long down" referenced in the original post and how it was done. Now lets see it anyone tells you, "you don't know what
you're talking about"?


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## James Downey

Thomas,

All I can say is this. What Brittney did with Joker was nothing short of a miracle. Joker would never have been capable of world competetion with out brittney. 

To try prove that she was liablity to Joker by comparing Marc's scores with Joker to Brit's scores with joker shows....you have absolutley no idea what your talking about.


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## James Downey

Thomas,

I guess I am just really taken back that your very quick dismiss Brit's accomplishments with Joker based on one score from a trial. And you had no idea that brit titled Joker to a 3. Do you think there maybe other significant information you do not have about Jokers training under brit?


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## Sara Waters

Well on the subject of Joker its sounds to me like a talented dog had the benefit of 2 talented trainers. One who laid down the all important foundations resulting in a fab dog and one who continued to build on them. 

Of course one would hope that a dogs scores would continue to improve with good training and maturity.


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## susan tuck

I don't think anyone has dismissed Joker's owner's accomplishments. What Thomas has mentioned is Mark's accomplishments. And it wasn't just one trial, it was that they were the AWDF Champions, North American Champions, South Central Regional Champions, and of course, culminating in Mark and Joker taking 5th place at the FCI World Championship with incredible scores: 100/96/94=290. It also hasn't been just one dog, it's Briska, Vienna, Lion and others he has helped along the way. No matter what you want to say, the record speaks for itself, amd Mark has a great track record for someone so young, he's not even 25. Few people even twice his age can match his accomplishments to date. I train with him, and I consider myself to be very lucky to do so.
8)


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## Thomas Barriano

Sara Waters said:


> Well on the subject of Joker its sounds to me like a talented dog had the benefit of 2 talented trainers. One who laid down the all important foundations resulting in a fab dog and one who continued to build on them.
> 
> Of course one would hope that a dogs scores would continue to improve with good training and maturity.


Thanks Sara, that pretty much sums up the situation IMO too.


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## Thomas Barriano

susan tuck said:


> I don't think anyone has dismissed Joker's owner's accomplishments. What Thomas has mentioned is Mark's accomplishments. And it wasn't just one trial, it was that they were the AWDF Champions, North American Champions, South Central Regional Champions, and of course, culminating in Mark and Joker taking 5th place at the FCI World Championship with incredible scores: 100/96/94=290. It also hasn't been just one dog, it's Briska, Vienna, Lion and others he has helped along the way. No matter what you want to say, the record speaks for itself, amd Mark has a great track record for someone so young, he's not even 25. Few people even twice his age can match his accomplishments to date. I train with him, and I consider myself to be very lucky to do so.
> 8)


Exactly, I don't know Brittany and had no intention of dismissing the foundation work she did on Joker. I did
get a chance to work with Mark a couple of times and was also
very impressed with his training skills. For the record: Mark was very quick to credit Brittany for the work that she did.


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## James Downey

Thomas Barriano said:


> Exactly, I don't know Brittany and had no intention of dismissing the foundation work she did on Joker. I did
> get a chance to work with Mark a couple of times and was also
> very impressed with his training skills. For the record: Mark was very quick to credit Brittany for the work that she did.


Well than I apologize for mis-interpeting what you wrote. And yes, there is no doubt that Marc did not achieve what he did with Joker on accident. He is a very talented and skilled trainer. I do not think I have ever met a more dedicated dog trainer. I heard once that Marc slept in a rental car in order to attend a Worlds he was not even competeing in. I know trainers not willing to drive an hour to training.


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## James Downey

maggie fraser said:


> That's how they train here in working trials....sometimes you can have half a dozen or more dogs in a ten minute down/handler out of sight all at the same time....all focused. My dog was doing it comfortably by the age of 1 yr, isolated, and in a group, always retaining focus. I didn't think it was that hard to train as such.


 
Maybe I do not get out enough. Because I have never seen a dog , do a long down like Jokers that was that impressive. I remember after the trial that the long down was the topic of a few conversations. Usually this the long down, is not exciting enough to talk about.

David Greene and Luigi I would say also have a very impressive long down. 


So, step by step. Would anyone like to take a shot at how they would try and achieve a perfect long down. I have tried, and failed to get anything the resembles what Joker, and Luigi have. I also do not see very many trainers, not even the top ones coming close. Sure they get full points, but that's not the point. 

I also think, that if a dog is trying to burn holes in the blind with his eyes for 10 minutes in the long down, and another dog does not move, but takes the liberty to move thier head in a championship. The dog with intense focus should get more points.


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## Laura Bollschweiler

James Downey said:


> I also think, that if a dog is trying to burn holes in the blind with his eyes for 10 minutes in the long down, and another dog does not move, but takes the liberty to move thier head in a championship. The dog with intense focus should get more points.


But it's not going to so why waste the dog's training on this? If I think a dog only has so many corrections in it over a lifetime, I wouldn't want to waste them on the difference you mentioned above. Or if I'm getting ready to trial and I'm having problems in another area that I want to focus on, I wouldn't want to spend so effort on this detail that won't make a difference in points.

Laura


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## James Downey

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> But it's not going to so why waste the dog's training on this? If I think a dog only has so many corrections in it over a lifetime, I wouldn't want to waste them on the difference you mentioned above. Or if I'm getting ready to trial and I'm having problems in another area that I want to focus on, I wouldn't want to spend so effort on this detail that won't make a difference in points.
> 
> Laura


Ok. then don't train it.

It's not a waste to me. First, accepting the status quo is not thinking of a champion. Second, overtime showing a dog with that type of training will raise the bar. Third, I am a dog trainer and setting the criteria higher is not always about points. It's about challenging myself and learning how to apply the knowledge. Fourth I think there is some training value for trialing. It may not gain you points, but you can rest easy in the blind knowing your dog is bomb proof and is not going to lose the points. Especially when that person for whatever reason, decides on trial day to do protection work right outside the fence of the field...now this happened at about half of the trial I was at. 5th, I think that proofing focus in one area, most likely has some bleed over to other areas.


I also do not think there is magic number of corrections the dog has in a lifetime. I could be wrong on that. I think it's the mis-application of punishment that ruins it's usefulness. In another thread I talked about how I am trying to learn about aversive training. How I am trying to learn more about it's application to imrprove it's effectiveness and preserve the dog at the same time. I also am not sure the long down requires corrections. I never have lost my 10 pts on the long down (knock on wood). I never have corrected Addie for a long down. Now Dale did elude to that Marc used some punishment...So I may in the future. but as for now, I think I am going to experiement with reward schedules.

As for a trial nearing...Neglecting the long down, to train something else? I do not know many trainers who do not do some proof work to make sure the long down is there. 

And I think Marc as a trainer showed us that attention to detail is very important. I have never come close to placing that high at a high level competetion. I am betting that, Marcs ability to train the details are what made the difference for him.


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## Jackie Lockard

I'll agree with pretty much everything James just said, regarding proofing, training to high level, training for details, ect. Maybe it's just a difference in goals. I plan to compete at worlds someday. The details are important to me for that reason. I don't like worrying, either. So just to know that my dog is never going to leave that down is just plain worth it to me. It really boils down to my pride in the end. I want to have the best training, the best dog, the one with that "wow" factor over the competition. So I can train it and you feel free not to.;-)


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## susan tuck

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> But it's not going to so why waste the dog's training on this? If I think a dog only has so many corrections in it over a lifetime, I wouldn't want to waste them on the difference you mentioned above. Or if I'm getting ready to trial and I'm having problems in another area that I want to focus on, I wouldn't want to spend so effort on this detail that won't make a difference in points.
> 
> Laura


Agreed.

As far as who is training for what level, Laura has competed in UScA Nationals as well as placing 3rd in probably the most competitive UScA regional championship with a huge entry I've ever seen. So I guess it's a safe bet she qualifies as someone who trains for higher levels.

Here's the thing. Even though James and the people in the crowd might really like a dog who's eye's are lazered on the blind, you aren't going to get extra points for it, not in any competition, no matter how large. You are also not going to lose any points in any competition for it. You lose points for a dog being antsy, you lose points for a dog moving, but the rules state the dog is to be CALM, so you do NOT lose any points for the dog turning his head.

One thing I have always heard Dean say is be leary of training the dog up too much. It's not a good idea to screw with something for no extra points if it can cause you to loose points somewhere else in the long run, especially if pressure is involved. So for me, this is the reason why I wouldn't mess with an already 10 point down.

There can be reasons someone trains a dog to do this, that have nothing to do with the picture it presents. For example, if you have a dog who is prone to move a little, get antsy, possibly break if he does not remain focused on the handler, then it's very important that his down be extremely focused on the handler. So it would be important to train this type of dog to keep his focus on the blind where he knows the handler is.


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## Jackie Lockard

susan tuck said:


> As far as who is training for what level, Laura has competed in UScA Nationals as well as placing 3rd in probably the most competitive UScA regional championship with a huge entry I've ever seen. So I guess it's a safe bet she qualifies as someone who trains for higher levels.
> 
> Here's the thing. Even though James and the people in the crowd might really like a dog who's eye's are lazered on the blind, you aren't going to get extra points for it, not in any competition, no matter how large. You are also not going to lose any points in any competition for it. You lose points for a dog being antsy, you lose points for a dog moving, but the rules state the dog is to be CALM, so you do NOT lose any points for the dog turning his head.
> 
> One thing I have always heard Dean say is be leary of training the dog up too much. It's not a good idea to screw with something for no extra points if it can cause you to loose points somewhere else in the long run, especially if pressure is involved. So for me, this is the reason why I wouldn't mess with an already 10 point down.
> 
> There can be reasons someone trains a dog to do this, that have nothing to do with the picture it presents. For example, if you have a dog who is prone to move a little, get antsy, possibly break if he does not remain focused on the handler, then it's very important that his down be extremely focused on the handler. So it would be important to train this type of dog to keep his focus on the blind where he knows the handler is.


Don't know Laura, so I didn't mean to offend with my comments (if they did).

I wouldn't say I would train all dogs to have a "perfect" long down, but with some (maybe most?) I would say it's an advantage to be able to pick up your dog after a long down and still have him completely warmed up and raring for the ob routine the same as you checked into the judge.

On the same note, dogs aren't required to have eye contact in heeling either so why train that?


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## susan tuck

Jackie Lockard said:


> Don't know Laura, so I didn't mean to offend with my comments (if they did).
> 
> I wouldn't say I would train all dogs to have a "perfect" long down, but with some (maybe most?) I would say it's an advantage to be able to pick up your dog after a long down and still have him completely warmed up and raring for the ob routine the same as you checked into the judge.
> 
> On the same note, dogs aren't required to have eye contact in heeling either so why train that?


Actually the rules do state that dogs are to be attentive to the handler while free heeling, so my dog is looking up at me, not out of position and wrapped around me, but still looking up towards my face.

If you have the kind of dog that you can train the laser stare attentive down and that's what you want, go for it. You can probably do it with an ecollar, you can surely do it with a ball, and I imagine you could even do it with a clicker. I agree it looks really nice, but it wouldn't be worth any more points. For me, there would be no point because I just want the 10 points the easiest way I can get them!!!


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## Jackie Lockard

Attentive doesn't mean eye contact though. It just means attentive. My dog can be attentive without blindly staring at me no matter where I'm walking.


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## Laura Bollschweiler

No offense taken. 

I'll give an example and use my own dog. He has a good down. Before one of our trials, I was correcting him for anything in the down...if he shifted, looked at the dog on the field, etc. Trial day, I swear, he looked at the dog on the field, didn't get a correction and went back to his old habits of watching doggie TV...the dog on the field. Yeah, he stayed down and got the full points, but it wasn't what I was working toward.

Okay. I could have spent my time working on that by correcting, rewarding, etc. I have a full-time job and an hour-long commute each way. My training time is pretty precious. There were lots and lots of other areas to work on. So why would I choose to work on something, spend time on something like that, that's not going to get me more points, and possibly ignore something else, like dumbbells, which are waaay more points?

Leading up to the AWDF, I was having trouble with a particular obedience exercise. Fixing it involved some stress to the dog. Why would I want to have to proof the ultra-cool long down right before nationals while I'm having this last-minute glitch too? A dog can only take so much training, especially when you combine it with the stress of travel, not to mention the crazy owner who used to be normal and now she's a nervebag. I think all training involves at least a little bit of stress, whether it's mental and/or physical. Even when I do something fun, I'm sometimes drained afterward.

As far as the looking in the eyes while heeling, no, it's not extra points, but I do it because I like to look at my dog.  and that's really not sarcastic, I swear. If you knew me, you would know that I like him a lot.

Jim, if you want to train the long down for that behavior, knock yourself out. Ask yourself if you have the right dog for it. I train with Mark (thank god), and my dog was allowed to watch doggie TV. Honestly, it made me crazy but I really had to pick my battles.

You know, typing this I just thought of something...How do you know without a doubt that your dog staring into the blind is keeping his drive level up? What if watching another dog on the field builds his drive? What if you've trained a great down, and hearing protection warmup while the dog was in the down was the cue to the dog to build drive? You've now got a shaken-up soda can ready to do some great freakin obedience.

Laura


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## Jackie Lockard

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> As far as the looking in the eyes while heeling, no, it's not extra points, but I do it because I like to look at my dog.  and that's really not sarcastic, I swear. If you knew me, you would know that I like him a lot.
> 
> You know, typing this I just thought of something...How do you know without a doubt that your dog staring into the blind is keeping his drive level up? What if watching another dog on the field builds his drive? What if you've trained a great down, and hearing protection warmup while the dog was in the down was the cue to the dog to build drive? You've now got a shaken-up soda can ready to do some great freakin obedience.
> 
> Laura


Same. Although I also think it makes for some pretty kick ass lookin' heeling. :wink:

For me it's not "staring at the blind" = drive. Same as looking at me during heeling is not drive. I would say whatever creates intensity is what creates drive. So if that intensity is from staring at the blind, could be in anticipation or whatever, then it's drive building, same if it's hearing the whip or watching the other dog performing. I only get super-drivey AND intense heeling with one of my dogs when I add pressure, so I'll often correct him in heeling right before I have to do perform. HE happens to thrive on that pressure (during heeling). Other dogs would get better drive and intensity from solely rewards or other mixtures.


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## susan tuck

Jackie Lockard said:


> Attentive doesn't mean eye contact though. It just means attentive. My dog can be attentive without blindly staring at me no matter where I'm walking.


Absoloutely, but this is how my dog shows he is attentive to me, he looks at me, up towards my face.


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## James Downey

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> Jim, if you want to train the long down for that behavior, knock yourself out. Ask yourself if you have the right dog for it. I train with Mark (thank god), and my dog was allowed to watch doggie TV. Honestly, it made me crazy but I really had to pick my battles.
> 
> You know, typing this I just thought of something...How do you know without a doubt that your dog staring into the blind is keeping his drive level up? What if watching another dog on the field builds his drive? What if you've trained a great down, and hearing protection warmup while the dog was in the down was the cue to the dog to build drive? You've now got a shaken-up soda can ready to do some great freakin obedience.
> 
> Laura


Laura, No fair...I said it first. If you do not wanna train it then don't. LOL

And do I have the dog? Keep drive up? The things Shepherd folks have to worry about...HAHA

I am just kidding.

Laura, to say that I am not interested in getting a long down like that would be a lie. I am. But What I am more interested in is talking about the journey to getting it. Because I do not know how to get it. I have yet to see anyone duplicate it...that leads me to believe a lot of other people can't get it either. I think that if I conquer things like this. I will be able to apply the lessons learned to other behaviors. I hope to one day be able to see behavior on a field and quickly have an idea how I would go about getting it...without "hoping" the training will work. but knowing it will. Just like a good guitar player can hear a song, and quickly replay it on his guitar. But I am not there yet. So, in the mean time, I do things like read, and talk about dog training. A little game I play is called how would I get the behavior I see...that's all this is.

I am not worried if it's practical, if my dog is capable of it, if it's going to make drive. This is a forum, not the training field. 

Or we could play the game everyone does...Just ask mark or dean. and just have them train the dog by-proxy. A lot of people have gotten to a podium that way. I'd rather fall on my face.


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## James Downey

And that's no dig to marc or Dean...I know how you have to qualify everything you say on these forums. Or it will be qouted and used against you.

I just wanna be able to do this cool thing...think for myself.
the dog I have now..using this method. Is probably not going to win anything huge. I am okay with that. For the obvious belief that I think I will eventually deduct what works and what does not. a few dogs later. I will be a dog trainer, not a guy with a dog copying everyone else.


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## Sara Waters

I think I would also pick my battles. I have watched obedience stay lineups and there are dogs that are focussed on where the handler dissapeared and remain like that. A little sheltie comes to mind under a very hot sun, little ears pricked looking like a little sphinx, this dog is very handler focussed and slighty stressy. There are also dogs that relax but remain attentive, they generally dont look around but nor do they stare at the blind, I kind of like that, they have plenty of drive when required and very quickly arc up. Others will gaze around but dont move their body.

My cattle dogs will not look at other dogs or people when in a down, they will stare at the point I dissapeared, it is not something I trained. A laid back BC I own doesnt look around, she just relaxes and nods off and waits for me to come back, but is quick to resume drive when asked. Granted my dogs have only achieved novice status, but I have done the out of sights at training when I was doing obedience. 

As to heeling, I liked the attentive dog looking up at me in the right position, but don't like the laser, glued to my thigh stargazing thing. It is all personal preference really and I have seen dogs score 200 with different variations.


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## James Downey

Why does training the down have to be a battle?

Also, why does this have to be a battle? 

I am beginning to wonder if some peoples motives here are even about coming to conclusions. I mean people are discussing why they would not even attempt to teach it. And now people are just agreeing with each other as if they found the secret...you do not even train the behavior. So why waster your time responding. You do not believe in it. If you do not believe in god, don't go to church and tell them why. Just do not go to church.

Everyone does everything for a reason. Why would people dodge the question or try to discredit the behaviors utlity?

I have an idea...because humans do not like to look unsure infront of other humans. So instead of just saying I do not know. They try and make the question irrelevant. My guess is. 

The people saying the behavior is useless...I am guessing do not have a clue anymore than I how to get the behavior. 

This useless and does no one any good. Except it feels good when a few monkey's get together and tell the other one how they are right.

The utlilty of the down as I explained it was not the question...it simply was how would you train it. 

I also just had a thought. If it's so useless and Marc is so talented...why did he train a useless behavior?


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## Laura Bollschweiler

"I also just had a thought. If it's so useless and Marc is so talented...why did he train a useless behavior"

Because he could with that dog. That's the point I was trying to make. It wasn't worth it to me with my dog. 

Laura


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## James Downey

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> "I also just had a thought. If it's so useless and Marc is so talented...why did he train a useless behavior"
> 
> Because he could with that dog. That's the point I was trying to make. It wasn't worth it to me with my dog.
> 
> Laura


First let me start off by saying I do apologize for my last post. I let my fustration get the better of me. The human in me showed it's ugly head again.

Okay, I can appreciate that it's not worth it to you to train it.

the point I am trying to make is that the value of the behavior is not the question. The point is, I imagine that teaching a long down like that is not easy. So it serves my purpose well and that is...How would you train it. The only thing I want to accomplish by asking that question is to see how other people get from point A to B in thier head.

I am sure all my dogs are capable of this. Why? because they all have eye balls and they have drive for a toy.


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## Gillian Schuler

I don't know whether this helps:

I trained the long down from puppy age, as soon as it knew the down, by standing next to it - pup on lead whilst one dog was undergoing the OB. Those whose dogs could stay without being controlled watched the individual OBs.

It is a system of "never let the dog make a mistake". It was taught very slowly and sniffing, barking, crawling, etc. is stopped from the very beginning whilst standing next to the pup. Eventually I could stand about 10 metres away, now in front of the dog until its 100% (?) reliable down was reached.
I can't give the answer to the stare at the blind but wonder if a dog trained this way is more secure and awaits the return of the handler in eager anticipation (drive)?

The long sit in a way is similar and here I did this slowly, too, rewarding with a ball so the dog was expectant of it and stared at me until I returned.

In the long sit you see dogs turning their heads around a lot and not intent on the handler - no points off but the dog who stares at his handler looks better


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## Sara Waters

James Downey said:


> First let me start off by saying I do apologize for my last post. I let my fustration get the better of me. The human in me showed it's ugly head again.
> 
> Okay, I can appreciate that it's not worth it to you to train it.
> 
> the point I am trying to make is that the value of the behavior is not the question. The point is, I imagine that teaching a long down like that is not easy. So it serves my purpose well and that is...How would you train it. The only thing I want to accomplish by asking that question is to see how other people get from point A to B in thier head.
> 
> I am sure all my dogs are capable of this. Why? because they all have eye balls and they have drive for a toy.


Well I just think for some dogs it is more natural than others. For some dogs it is going to be harder to train than others. You might think it is not easy and for some it isnt easy or worth the effort perhaps. For some dogs it does appear to be reletively easy but perhaps it maybe also due also to foundation behaviour not neccessarily to do with training the down. 

I know some of the well known handlers bring their young pups to agility or obedience and really play focus games with their pups with a tug or food among the many distractions of a trial ground every week and at a number of training nights. These dogs are totally focussed on their handlers as they grow, regardless of what is going around them. They have been completely conditioned since pups. I have seen some of these dogs in the long downs and they remain focussed regardless of what is going on around them. I think also for some it is about the expectation of a jackpot reward at the end, some are so obsessed with their tug or whatever that they are primed with expectation. I have seen some go nuts for their jackpot at the end of a long down.


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## maggie fraser

Sara Waters said:


> Well I just think for some dogs it is more natural than others. For some dogs it is going to be harder to train than others. You might think it is not easy and for some it isnt easy or worth the effort perhaps. For some dogs it does appear to be reletively easy but perhaps it maybe also due also to foundation behaviour not neccessarily to do with training the down.
> 
> I know some of the well known handlers bring their young pups to agility or obedience and really play focus games with their pups with a tug or food among the many distractions of a trial ground every week and at a number of training nights. These dogs are totally focussed on their handlers as they grow, regardless of what is going around them. They have been completely conditioned since pups. I have seen some of these dogs in the long downs and they remain focussed regardless of what is going on around them. I think also for some it is about the expectation of a jackpot reward at the end, some are so obsessed with their tug or whatever that they are primed with expectation. I have seen some go nuts for their jackpot at the end of a long down.


 
I think there could be merit in there ^^. Training with and amongst distraction from the get go.


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## James Downey

Sara Waters said:


> Well I just think for some dogs it is more natural than others. For some dogs it is going to be harder to train than others. You might think it is not easy and for some it isnt easy or worth the effort perhaps. For some dogs it does appear to be reletively easy but perhaps it maybe also due also to foundation behaviour not neccessarily to do with training the down.
> 
> I know some of the well known handlers bring their young pups to agility or obedience and really play focus games with their pups with a tug or food among the many distractions of a trial ground every week and at a number of training nights. These dogs are totally focussed on their handlers as they grow, regardless of what is going around them. They have been completely conditioned since pups. I have seen some of these dogs in the long downs and they remain focussed regardless of what is going on around them. I think also for some it is about the expectation of a jackpot reward at the end, some are so obsessed with their tug or whatever that they are primed with expectation. I have seen some go nuts for their jackpot at the end of a long down.


 
I defintly think this is a piece of the puzzle.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> Okay. I could have spent my time working on that by correcting, rewarding, etc. I have a full-time job and an hour-long commute each way. My training time is pretty precious. There were lots and lots of other areas to work on. So why would I choose to work on something, spend time on something like that, that's not going to get me more points, and possibly ignore something else, like dumbbells, which are waaay more points?
> 
> Leading up to the AWDF, I was having trouble with a particular obedience exercise. Fixing it involved some stress to the dog. Why would I want to have to proof the ultra-cool long down right before nationals while I'm having this last-minute glitch too? A dog can only take so much training, especially when you combine it with the stress of travel, not to mention the crazy owner who used to be normal and now she's a nervebag. I think all training involves at least a little bit of stress, whether it's mental and/or physical. Even when I do something fun, I'm sometimes drained afterward.


Amen on all accounts!  I hate trialing, I really do... :-$ :razz: Okay, back on topic.


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## Dale Pitts

susan tuck said:


> Agreed.
> 
> As far as who is training for what level, Laura has competed in UScA Nationals as well as placing 3rd in probably the most competitive UScA regional championship with a huge entry I've ever seen. So I guess it's a safe bet she qualifies as someone who trains for higher levels.
> 
> Here's the thing. Even though James and the people in the crowd might really like a dog who's eye's are lazered on the blind, you aren't going to get extra points for it, not in any competition, no matter how large. You are also not going to lose any points in any competition for it. You lose points for a dog being antsy, you lose points for a dog moving, but the rules state the dog is to be CALM, so you do NOT lose any points for the dog turning his head.
> 
> *One thing I have always heard Dean say is be leary of training the dog up too much. It's not a good idea to screw with something for no extra points if it can cause you to loose points somewhere else in the long run, especially if pressure is involved. So for me, this is the reason why I wouldn't mess with an already 10 point down.*
> 
> There can be reasons someone trains a dog to do this, that have nothing to do with the picture it presents. For example, if you have a dog who is prone to move a little, get antsy, possibly break if he does not remain focused on the handler, then it's very important that his down be extremely focused on the handler. So it would be important to train this type of dog to keep his focus on the blind where he knows the handler is.



This is absolutely true. I have heard Dean say it many times as well as Marc, and the fact is simple, that if you put pressure on a dog, the result of that pressure may not show in that exercise, but it can and will most likely bleed over into another exercise.


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## James Downey

I think this analogy says what I am after.

If this were music and I played the guitar. I would not be so interested in learning the songs someone else wrote. That's a great way to start. but now I am more interested in writing my own music.

So, the original question was not that I am looking for help with the long down or to achieve more points. I used Jokers down because it was a behavior most people do not have. And I cannot think how the long down could be done more perfect (if you can use the word more to describe perfect) I was just seeing how others would write thier own music...kind of like a cover.

So, I found out from people that have not written the song or they have and it's just the easiest thing that:

some people like playing other peoples music. but not like a cover...they just do what so and so does. and suggest that I just do it like so and so does...maybe even call him and ask.

Some people tried to a crack at it, but they are just showing me the chords and not the fills and riffs.

Some people do not wanna write that kind of music. Claiming the music is worthless.

Some people think my guitar may not be able to handle it. (it's a long down...not dealing cards)


I hope one day, that I will be able to see a behavior on a field that I have never seen. and have a pretty good idea how I would train it. And when I do try to it, be pretty close. Just like a guitar player can hear a song on the radio and without looking at someone elses music or having someone show them how...just be able to pick up a guitar and play the song.

I think that is the skill that seperates people learning how to play the guitar, to people who actually play the guitar. Anything less than that...Is either mimicing someone elses ideas or experimenting with your own. And I think that's the natural learning order. First mimic, then experiment. I just see a lot trainers get hung up on the mimicing stage and never move forward. afraid if they experiment they will lose those oh-so precious points. I wouldn't claim any of what I say as gospel yet, because I am just starting to really experiment.

I will tell you what. I have 2 pups from the same litter. I taught one using food at home in low drive at first...then transition it to the field for the toy. The other, I took right to the field and taught with a toy. The one with the toy, so far geneitcally had less drive...but has better flashier OB. the one taught with food has two times the drive...but the behaviors are less flashy. I do not if anyone else was told to teach with food at home, then build at the field. But I think that's BS.


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## Sara Waters

James Downey said:


> I think that is the skill that seperates people learning how to play the guitar, to people who actually play the guitar. Anything less than that...Is either mimicing someone elses ideas or experimenting with your own. And I think that's the natural learning order. First mimic, then experiment. I just see a lot trainers get hung up on the mimicing stage and never move forward. afraid if they experiment they will lose those oh-so precious points. I wouldn't claim any of what I say as gospel yet, because I am just starting to really experiment.
> 
> I will tell you what. I have 2 pups from the same litter. I taught one using food at home in low drive at first...then transition it to the field for the toy. The other, I took right to the field and taught with a toy. The one with the toy, so far geneitcally had less drive...but has better flashier OB. the one taught with food has two times the drive...but the behaviors are less flashy. I do not if anyone else was told to teach with food at home, then build at the field. But I think that's BS.


With sheep you dont need toys or food as getting to work sheep is the reward and the instinct to do that in a well bred dog is very strong. My BC couldnt care less about either when heading out to work sheep.

However I use both with him in agility. I like to be able to work with both and interchanged with both from puppyhood. I found for a super high drive dog like my BC that training with toys got him way too excited. I use a toy when heading out to train agility and for a few warm up moves then I switch to food which helps him to focus better. I have to admit with him I am not interested in flashy, I am interested in speed, control and accuracy and would probably be the same if I was to train him in obedience. 

I sometimes pull out the toys when training send outs etc. and the same would apply in obedience possibly. 

I generally only train my dogs when they are in high drive and a toy is great for getting them in the mood if they are not already. 

Training in low drive I find a bit of a drag really and have only ever experienced it with one dog - hard work. She is super accurate but is not going to set the world on fire with speed.

I like to observe what the top trainers are doing and if I like I try out with my dogs. In agility the top people usually have a very consistent handling system which they train from the word go so as not to confuse the dog when doing things at speed. 

If you make your own up you just have to remember that consistency is the key. I would think the same would be for obedience. 

Most top trainers I have observed have a plan


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Most top trainers I have observed have a plan


----------



## susan tuck

And James, you know what your last post told me about your music? If you had listened to those who came before you like Mark and like Dean, you would have known better than to train that pup with food because what that accomplishes is exactly what you have, right? You have taught him you want him to work in low drive state because you rewarded him over and over for working in that drive. But I guess what's important to you is that you taught yourself that lesson?

Now you're right, I sure didn't learn that particular song on my own, but I learned it nevertheless, I can play it, and build riffs off, because I listened and learned, and hey - I didn't have to **** up a dog in the process.:-D


----------



## Paul R. Konschak

James Downey said:


> I will tell you what. I have 2 pups from the same litter. I taught one using food at home in low drive at first...then transition it to the field for the toy. The other, I took right to the field and taught with a toy. The one with the toy, so far geneitcally had less drive...but has better flashier OB. the one taught with food has two times the drive...but the behaviors are less flashy. I do not if anyone else was told to teach with food at home, then build at the field. But I think that's BS.


Have you ever thought that the food should be used in another application? When a dog is a puppy, do you think it should have more drive for food or a toy? Do you think as a dog gets older, it can develop more drive for a toy because of the handler interaction needed for the toy? Do you think that some of the drive you are seeing could be how the dog reacts to the environment?


----------



## James Downey

So no long down theories?


----------



## susan tuck

None I care to share.


----------



## susan tuck

nevermind, sorry, just being a bit bitchy. 

James Can you tell us what your dog does on the long down now? Is the dog really fidgety or watching the action or does it have it's head down between it's paws? Also what methods do you use now to train? Motivational, corrections, both, none of the above?


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## James Downey

Susan, I was not looking for help.

I took a finished behavior, the long down, 

I set some criteria, JOKER LDS from the 2008 AWDF. In the pouring Rain, he laid down, he never moved, or took his eyes off the blind...it was like he was trying to burn holes in the blind with his eyes and he was nailed to the ground. It was the most intense long down I have ever seen.

I wanna to see if sometrainers would not to guess how Marc got it, but from what you already know, how would you get it. 

How would you train the long down with criteria above being your finished product.

Keeping the ADD under control and on task has been a big problem with this class.


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## susan tuck

What is this a test? Why don't you tell us how you would do it?


----------



## Shade Whitesel

You imprint the down as a "wait" to be broken at any time with an exaggerated movement from the handler. And a high drive toy to create that focus. It also takes the dog who can do it. My mal will have a down like this for sure. He looks at me to the exclusion of everything else. Little bit of avoidance to everything else happening around him. The gsd, who I trained the same way, wants to check out his environment, knows he is on a down for a long time, and is not so worried about everything that he has to check on me for direction at all times. Just two different types of dogs. Same training. Different results. 
The mal might get perfect points on his down but the gsd will gain them in different ways.


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## James Downey

susan tuck said:


> What is this a test? Why don't you tell us how you would do it?


 
I got nothing. completetly at a loss for words.

Do you actually read the threads?


----------



## James Downey

Shade Whitesel said:


> You imprint the down as a "wait" to be broken at any time with an exaggerated movement from the handler. And a high drive toy to create that focus. It also takes the dog who can do it. My mal will have a down like this for sure. He looks at me to the exclusion of everything else. Little bit of avoidance to everything else happening around him. The gsd, who I trained the same way, wants to check out his environment, knows he is on a down for a long time, and is not so worried about everything that he has to check on me for direction at all times. Just two different types of dogs. Same training. Different results.
> The mal might get perfect points on his down but the gsd will gain them in different ways.


So random reward schedules with a high drive toy. Do you think there is some value in training on a fixed interval? then extending duration between intervals? I am asking cause I can see it my head but do not know if it would work.


----------



## rick smith

a long time ago i gave a simple response that was kinda OT
train a solid TWENTY min down under distraction ... if you actually DID that, wouldn't it be fairly easy to "sharpen" the first 10 min portion of it to be FLASHY and intensely focused ?

or is there something missing in my logic ?
i think u are getting hung up on the intensity, "lazer look", trying to move a mountain part......if you don't want to accept head turns don't reinforce them along the way, and fwiw, i don't think you need a world class dog to get it....just patience, training time and excellent timing

is there a possibility the "lazer look" might just be an optical illusion in the eyes of the admirers ??? .....to the dog it's probably just keeping their eyes open and head not moving......and hard to see how tense their muscles are from a distance 

however.......
doing it with one paw off the ground while in a down would get even better crowd response, or is there a rule that says that would not be allowed and lose points ? 
- or would it be considered inappropriate behavior for a working dog ????
.....if it were me and i wanted a challenge i'd go for that - why imitate and emulate when you can innovate

btw, this is only partially sarcastic ... i just have had a BAD day :-(


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## James Downey

And just to be devils advocate here. Rieki stares at you in a heel without looking around. Is getting the dog to stare at you or a blind without looking around that much different where the dog is capable of one but not the other?

I am asking questions not to be shithead but really to see what you think. I know you got some talent so I am not questioning your ability. I realy wanna know what you think. These are the thoughts I have in my head....if I can train a dog to down, drool and stare at me while I prepare thier food. and should be able to get that behavior on the field.


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## rick smith

can you prepare food for ten minutes ?
can you get a 30 min focused heel ?
is it a valid comparison and analogy ?
maybe that's why they're easier

could you get a 5 min focused down ?
probably
what other behaviors do you train for where time of holding the OB is the critical factor, and what do you accept and mark as "correct" or acceptable when you train for it ?

sorry, i'm not too focused right now, but i would be interested if u think my mental image is way off


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## susan tuck

James Downey said:


> I got nothing. completetly at a loss for words.
> 
> Do you actually read the threads?


When jack ass types are looking for free training advise? No, not much really. See ya later, I'm going to go out and train.


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## Gillian Schuler

James Downey, I don't think *you* read all the posts. I achieved what you said. My dog stared at the blind until I went to pick him up because I trained him slowly and gradually to be comfortable in the down.

Dog training isn't all that difficult - it needs someone who can read a dog and not someone who is lookig for a one off, i.e. someone whose dog stares at the blind - probably not trained - probably the dog / owner relationshiip!!


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## James Downey

susan tuck said:


> When jack ass types are looking for free training advise? No, not much really. See ya later, I'm going to go out and train.


Cool, Tell me how Marks and Deans training is going.

And since I have never once heard of you....You probably couldn't sell it. So anyone coming to you asking for any advice, I would take as a compliment.


----------



## James Downey

Gillian Schuler said:


> I don't know whether this helps:
> 
> I trained the long down from puppy age, as soon as it knew the down, by standing next to it - pup on lead whilst one dog was undergoing the OB. Those whose dogs could stay without being controlled watched the individual OBs.
> 
> It is a system of "never let the dog make a mistake". It was taught very slowly and sniffing, barking, crawling, etc. is stopped from the very beginning whilst standing next to the pup. Eventually I could stand about 10 metres away, now in front of the dog until its 100% (?) reliable down was reached.
> I can't give the answer to the stare at the blind but wonder if a dog trained this way is more secure and awaits the return of the handler in eager anticipation (drive)?
> 
> The long sit in a way is similar and here I did this slowly, too, rewarding with a ball so the dog was expectant of it and stared at me until I returned.
> 
> In the long sit you see dogs turning their heads around a lot and not intent on the handler - no points off but the dog who stares at his handler looks better


 
This post Gillian, This how you taught your dog....which was missing intricts parts the criteria I posted. So I did read it. 

but I dissmissed it. Because it was not what I was looking for. Which was cool, thanks for trying to help. but it missed the point.


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## Gillian Schuler

OK, your miss!! I certainly feel that a pup conditioned to the training we put our pups through would have come close to what you are *trying* to achieve.

What the .... is this "....which was missing intricts parts the criteria I posted."

I guess you'd better read your own posts for a start or go out on to the field and start training.


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## James Downey

Thanks Shade, Paul, Gillian and all the others who tried to take a crack at getting the long down. I got something out of it. Not sure that went I how I saw it my head.


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## Gillian Schuler

I guess it wasn't what you were wanting but your posts were more or less:

"if you can't convince them, confuse them"!!

Fact is: I had a dog that stared at the blind through IPO 1-3


----------



## maggie fraser

James Downey said:


> Thanks Shade, Paul, Gillian and all the others who tried to take a crack at getting the long down. I got something out of it. Not sure that went I how I saw it my head.


You could always try using the other side of your brain.


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## Gillian Schuler

Maggie,

Can always rely on you for a bang on statement!!

\\/\\/\\/


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## James Downey

Gillian Schuler said:


> I guess it wasn't what you were wanting but your posts were more or less:
> 
> "if you can't convince them, confuse them"!!


 
Can't just let some step out without being shitty about it... I bet your a ****ing riot at Christmas with the family.

My posts, were asking a pretty direct question...how would get the behavior? I am not sure how I was convincing anyone of anything. I was asking a question, not giving instruction. For the most part I found some of the training to be what I would think a newbie would try first....Leash to the blind. Pretty obvious stuff. 

Most people who did try to take a stab it, spoke in very general simple terms. Without much detail. But I appreciate thier Ideas. Some were along the lines what I was thinking. Some were not.

Some people pulled the good ol' stand-by's...like relationship. **** Marc had the dog for few months, it's not like they were life long pals like timmy and lassie.

Some tried to, and this baffles me, negated the idea all together...some attack my dog...which was not question. 

I think this is tough for people to do, it is for me.

Either way, it's a fun game... 

Heres what I would have said.

I would start with a dog teach the dog a down. I do this with shaping. trying to keep the dog doing it perfect everytime to build muscle memoryAdding the command last I would do this at home. This is a place where I would use food. because it's easy for me to reward duration for holding a posiition without having the dog break position. I would now teach the down also means do not move. I would start by simply having a refeence for the dog...like a piece of wood or a towel, if they move off of it, mark no and start over. Once satisified,I would pull gently on leash trying to initiate the oppositional reflex to reward for not moving. walk around them, show them toys, kick a ball...keep uping the anty. Even have someone crack a whip but tell the dog to down. I would try to make them break. So I could mark what I do not want. Then I would start over, with duration. Make the dog hold it. But add teaching the dog to look at a blind. I would teach them that eye contact on the blind produces a reward. I would do this till the dog offers the behavior on thier own. Then I would try to add distraction. Me with a ball walking around. , I may even have the blind close....maybe that would make it easier. Dog get's marked no for looking at me , rewarded for looking at the blind, good markes for duration. I would pair the word Down with the position of being down and looking at the blind. Then I would add distraction again trying to get the dog to look away. 

Now after this is done. I would go back to the down, dog looking at blind, and try have distractions (not me) break his concentration. I would always come out of the blind with toy to reward.

I am very suspicious about using physical aversion in places like the long down...I have seen to many dogs relate the corrections to the spot on the field...that place becomes a hot spot. 

I do not if I would write a book or if it would even work. I know I am limited to my own mind. So hearing others....sometimes stimulates me to think in a whole new direction. 

but that's my song.


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## Gillian Schuler

James Downey said: just let some step out without being shitty about it... I bet your a ****ing riot at Christmas with the family.

I would be a ****riot at Christmas if I had enough family alive to entertain.

I consider your comments in poor taste.

Why don't you follow your "signature tune"??


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## James Downey

maggie fraser said:


> You could always try using the other side of your brain.


Yo Mama.


----------



## James Downey

Gillian Schuler said:


> James Downey said: just let some step out without being shitty about it... I bet your a ****ing riot at Christmas with the family.
> 
> I would be a ****riot at Christmas if I had enough family alive to entertain.
> 
> I consider your comments in poor taste.
> 
> Why don't you follow your "signature tune"??


I tried to step out gracefully, you kept it up. **** you and your feelings.


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## Gillian Schuler

I didn't expect any better response from you - of course I have feelings, I'm human but you are obviously not.


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## maggie fraser

James Downey said:


> Yo Mama.


----------



## James Downey

Gillian Schuler said:


> I guess it wasn't what you were wanting but your posts were more or less:
> 
> "if you can't convince them, confuse them"!!
> 
> Fact is: I had a dog that stared at the blind through IPO 1-3


Feeling is: Unclimatic.

I am not sure if that's the pride of Europe or not. but hey it beats Masturbating at home alone.

Now were just slinging shit, I was over the long down about 2 pages ago.

And frankly Gillian, no one really cares about how good a trainer you are, unless your good and willing to help them...then your the best thing in world (selfish mother****ers) but other than that, I give a flying **** what other people think about how I train.


----------



## maggie fraser

James Downey said:


> Feeling is: Unclimatic.
> 
> I am not sure if that's the pride of Europe or not. but hey it beats Masturbating at home alone.
> 
> Now were just slinging shit, I was over the long down about 2 pages ago.
> 
> And frankly Gillian, no one really cares about how good a trainer you are, unless your good and willing to help them...then your the best thing in world (selfish mother****ers) but other than that, I give a flying **** what other people think about how I train.


----------



## James Downey

Gillian Schuler said:


> I didn't expect any better response from you - of course I have feelings, I'm human but you are obviously not.


 
This is every female I know. looks for a argument, gets one. and say now he's a pickin on little ol' innocent me. What an a-hole. I am sure there are a bunch suckers willing to eat that up. Nice little life skill you've learned.


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## maggie fraser

James Downey said:


> This is every female I know.


You really, really ought to get out more ! :-D


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## Gillian Schuler

James Downey said:


> Feeling is: Unclimatic.
> 
> I am not sure if that's the pride of Europe or not. but hey it beats Masturbating at home alone.
> 
> Now were just slinging shit, I was over the long down about 2 pages ago.
> 
> And frankly Gillian, no one really cares about how good a trainer you are, unless your good and willing to help them...then your the best thing in world (selfish mother****ers) but other than that, I give a flying **** what other people think about how I train.


I think you have your knickers in a twist :-D:-D:-D


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## susan tuck

James Downey said:


> Cool, Tell me how Marks and Deans training is going.
> 
> And since I have never once heard of you....You probably couldn't sell it. So anyone coming to you asking for any advice, I would take as a compliment.


hahaha Mark & Dean's training is going better than yours that's for sure, skippy. You know how I know? Because EVERY YEAR those guys either have dogs that place very well in Regionals, Nationals, even International competitions, or they are coaching people who are doing it. And where are you? So you see, it doesn't even matter that no one has heard of me, because unlike you, I'm not acting the fool by down playing someone else's very hard earned accomplishments, that you know nothing about. 

Why in the world would anyone even bother trying to tell you what they think about training anyway? You don't want to know. You've spent several pages telling us how much better you are because you're going to figure out everything for yourself rather than stoop to learning from your betters.

Good. Go figure it out. Knock yourself out.


----------



## Edward Egan

This thread has gone down the crapper!!!


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## James Downey

Edward Egan said:


> This thread has gone down the crapper!!!


 
Yeah **** it Ed, let's go bowling.


----------



## James Downey

susan tuck said:


> hahaha Mark & Dean's training is going better than yours that's for sure, skippy. You know how I know? Because EVERY YEAR those guys either have dogs that place very well in Regionals, Nationals, even International competitions, or they are coaching people who are doing it. And where are you? So you see, it doesn't even matter that no one has heard of me, because unlike you, I'm not acting the fool by down playing someone else's very hard earned accomplishments, that you know nothing about.
> 
> Why in the world would anyone even bother trying to tell you what they think about training anyway? You don't want to know. You've spent several pages telling us how much better you are because you're going to figure out everything for yourself rather than stoop to learning from your betters.
> 
> Good. Go figure it out. Knock yourself out.


Thank you for your blessing. 

Betters? is that the brother to Butters on South Park?


----------



## James Downey

maggie fraser said:


> You really, really ought to get out more ! :-D


 
You know who says, "I am not like othe girls".

Every girl.


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Mysogynist!!


----------



## Shade Whitesel

Jim,
Perhaps Reik's down is not so good (staring) because he's done it so often and so many times in trial that he knows he won't get rewarded and why should he stare at me in the blind since he knows it is Forever till I come back and the other dog moving around on the field is much more interesting... (In trial, he always lays back on one hip and watches the other dog.) 
Since he got pointed for looking at the judge when I left him on the sit out of motion at his last spring trial, I spent the last 6 months teaching him to stare at my back as I was departing in expectation of my release and a reward. Had it perfect in training. Had people walking past, distracting, etc.... At his trial a couple weeks ago, he eyeballed the judge. Perhaps he has had too many experiences looking around in trial and knows that it's a trial? 
Focus during heeling is different because the dog is next to you. At least I think it is different. And for Reik, the movement and dance of heeling with me is reinforcing to him. Down staying or sit staying away from me is not particularly reinforcing, focus or not.
The mal will have a staring down because he does not want to look at anything else around him and I can capitalize on that in my training. 
Fixed intervals? Do you mean gradually making it harder and longer and increasing each time the dog has to stay down? I think that is a big mistake. The dog must think that a reward may come at any time. Whether that is 2 seconds, one minute or five.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

I'd be happy if my Dobermutt would just stay within 1 meter on the long down. He could look up at the sky or at a blade of grass, if he wants.
Yesterday about 30-45 seconds after the gunfire he just gets up and wanders off. Then he totally blows by me on the recall.
Takes 3 commands to down on the send out and generally loses all focus. We wind up with 63 points in OB when we had a 96 track (high tracking by 12 points) 
We've tried setting up mock trial scenarios with club members and he seems to know the difference between the mock and the
real thing or maybe he knows when there are strangers around?

I've narrowed down what I need to do

Train more or less
Add more compulsion or more drive building


----------



## susan tuck

Thomas Barriano said:


> I'd be happy if my Dobermutt would just stay within 1 meter on the long down. He could look up at the sky or at a blade of grass, if he wants.
> Yesterday about 30-45 seconds after the gunfire he just gets up and wanders off. Then he totally blows by me on the recall.
> Takes 3 commands to down on the send out and generally loses all focus. We wind up with 63 points in OB when we had a 96 track (high tracking by 12 points)
> We've tried setting up mock trial scenarios with club members and he seems to know the difference between the mock and the
> real thing or maybe he knows when there are strangers around?
> 
> I've narrowed down what I need to do
> 
> Train more or less
> Add more compulsion or more drive building


hehehe Thomas I don't know if it's true but I've heard that about Dobermanns. Something about harkening back to the terrier in them? They notice a lot more on the horizon.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

susan tuck said:


> hehehe Thomas I don't know if it's true but I've heard that about Dobermanns. Something about harkening back to the terrier in them? They notice a lot more on the horizon.


Hey Susan

I wish I could figure it out. On his first attempt at a SchH I. He gets a 98 track!. He gets on the obedience field and it's like his mind goes blank. We're doing the group and he just wanders off to one of the spectators sitting in the shade and can't get him back on the field with three command....DQ
At least this time he stayed on the field. Maybe next time I can
get a passing score.
I'm almost ready to let him do dock diving or agility and concentrate on my GSD for Schutzhund ;-)


----------



## susan tuck

Hey dock diving looks like fun and I bet a dobie would be way good at it.

Have you talked to other dobie people about it? I seriously have seen the same thing with other dobies, a lot seem to have a bit of ADD if they spot something moving way off in the distance, they lose focus on the task at hand. Gotta be more than a little frustrating with such great tracking scores. I feel for ya buddy.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

susan tuck said:


> Hey dock diving looks like fun and I bet a dobie would be way good at it.
> 
> Have you talked to other dobie people about it? I seriously have seen the same thing with other dobies, a lot seem to have a bit of ADD when it comes to something they spot in the distance, they lose focus on the task at hand.


Dobermann ADD describes it perfectly. I've got some other things to try. The problem is I'm too damn stubborn to give up on him


----------



## susan tuck

Thomas Barriano said:


> Dobermann ADD describes it perfectly. I've got some other things to try. The problem is I'm too damn stubborn to give up on him


I hear you. Not stubborn, you have excellent drive and focus. I bet if you were a dog you'd stare holes into the blind during the long down. :lol:


----------



## James Downey

Shade Whitesel said:


> Jim,
> Perhaps Reik's down is not so good (staring) because he's done it so often and so many times in trial that he knows he won't get rewarded and why should he stare at me in the blind since he knows it is Forever till I come back and the other dog moving around on the field is much more interesting... (In trial, he always lays back on one hip and watches the other dog.)
> Since he got pointed for looking at the judge when I left him on the sit out of motion at his last spring trial, I spent the last 6 months teaching him to stare at my back as I was departing in expectation of my release and a reward. Had it perfect in training. Had people walking past, distracting, etc.... At his trial a couple weeks ago, he eyeballed the judge. Perhaps he has had too many experiences looking around in trial and knows that it's a trial?
> Focus during heeling is different because the dog is next to you. At least I think it is different. And for Reik, the movement and dance of heeling with me is reinforcing to him. Down staying or sit staying away from me is not particularly reinforcing, focus or not.
> The mal will have a staring down because he does not want to look at anything else around him and I can capitalize on that in my training.
> Fixed intervals? Do you mean gradually making it harder and longer and increasing each time the dog has to stay down? I think that is a big mistake. The dog must think that a reward may come at any time. Whether that is 2 seconds, one minute or five.


Nowhere talking Shade!

That makes sense about Reik. 

I get the slot machine Idea to make them guess when the reward is coming. I think it works, And I have done it. but with some other problems. First if the dog thinks I may get paid at anytime.. they will try to guess. They may fidget, get up on accident. get anxious waiting...like a kid saying, "are we there yet" cause the reason rewards come are arbitrary to the dog. I have done the random reward thingwith pretty good results. it's how I taught Addie.

Our good friend Chad, Told me about the 300 peck theory. Though I have not employed that exact theory it develed with reward schedules and got me thinking about them and thier effect on training. and the 300 peck theory is a fixed interval schedule with fixed reduction in reward in conjunction with a fixed extension in behavior performed.. The people doing the experiement literally got pigeons to peck themselves to death. So, basically....for 1 peck, the bird gets one reward, the it takes 2 pecks to get one reward, then 3 pecks to get one reward. Adding one of the same behavior to sequence in order to gain the same amount of reward. 

The advantage to this for the animal...no guessing involved, they know when the reward is coming, they figure out that they have to work slighty harder each time, but each time it's the same amount of work. Nothing is a trick. The animal is aware of the scheme. Where slot machining the reward is tricking the dog and we try to keep the dog out of the loop on what the scheme is. We want them to think it's coming any time, problem is sometmes they guess wrong. 

That's just a thought...what do you think? And you maybe right, it maybe a mistake.


----------



## Bob Scott

James Downey said:


> Nowhere talking Shade!
> 
> That makes sense about Reik.
> 
> I get the slot machine Idea to make them guess when the reward is coming. I think it works, And I have done it. but with some other problems. First if the dog thinks I may get paid at anytime.. they will try to guess. They may fidget, get up on accident. get anxious waiting...like a kid saying, "are we there yet" cause the reason rewards come are arbitrary to the dog. I have done the random reward thingwith pretty good results. it's how I taught Addie.
> 
> Our good friend Chad, Told me about the 300 peck theory. Though I have not employed that exact theory it develed with reward schedules and got me thinking about them and thier effect on training. and the 300 peck theory is a fixed interval schedule with fixed reduction in reward in conjunction with a fixed extension in behavior performed.. The people doing the experiement literally got pigeons to peck themselves to death. So, basically....for 1 peck, the bird gets one reward, the it takes 2 pecks to get one reward, then 3 pecks to get one reward. Adding one of the same behavior to sequence in order to gain the same amount of reward.
> 
> The advantage to this for the animal...no guessing involved, they know when the reward is coming, they figure out that they have to work slighty harder each time, but each time it's the same amount of work. Nothing is a trick. The animal is aware of the scheme. Where slot machining the reward is tricking the dog and we try to keep the dog out of the loop on what the scheme is. We want them to think it's coming any time, problem is sometmes they guess wrong.
> 
> That's just a thought...what do you think? And you maybe right, it maybe a mistake.


Interesting concept. 
I like the slot machine (random reward) method. Where I believe it goes wrong is when the trainer tries to put to much time between rewards to quickly. That's just a matter of knowing your dog.


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## James Downey

Bob Scott said:


> Interesting concept.
> I like the slot machine (random reward) method. Where I believe it goes wrong is when the trainer tries to put to much time between rewards to quickly. That's just a matter of knowing your dog.


 
Bob that defintly is something to think about...application of the random reward method may be amiss at times with me. That's not out of the question. And it's defintly a tried and true method. So by all means I am not saying that anyone is wrong. And everything I said has not been proven to me as the truth. I am just seeing what other people who are little scientists think.


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## Bob Scott

No method is wrong when it works correctly. ;-)


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## rick smith

i know this is a dog forum, but when we trained marine mammal behaviors we went thru the entire reinforcement scheds -continuous/fixed variable/random in a very systematic way

granted, the behaviors were more complex and there was more grey matter there to process it 

but some dog owners/trainers do not understand how to effectively manipulate, read and adjust the variable stages and move from continuous to random. it can be effective, but for me, going slower seems to build stronger behaviors


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## Bob Scott

"but for me, going slower seems to build stronger behaviors".

100% agree on that but it's next to impossible to convince many people that fast isn't best.


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## rick smith

re: "it's next to impossible to convince many people that fast isn't best"

no truer words were ever spoken 

and maybe we go too fast because we think our dog is so smart and such a quick learner


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## Sara Waters

rick smith said:


> but for me, going slower seems to build stronger behaviors


Pretty simple really LOL. I have had to go back to basics on many an ocassion when I have gone too fast for a particular dog and have moved on before the dog has really understood the behaviour that I want. I dont try and invent new ways of training I just try and apply what is known to best effect for each dog. Going slow and heavily reinforcing what you want and being able to switch the dog easily into drive seems to work well for my lot in agility and obedience.


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## Shade Whitesel

I know of the 300 peck theory and have really tried to think about it in relation to our work with the dogs. I am not debating it at all, but perhaps because I want such "up" heeling, such exuberance, such prancing and "happy" attitude, I don't feel that the dog can heel for 10 minutes and have the same quality of heeling the first 20 steps (when it knows damn well it isn't getting a reward) as the last minute when it knows a reward is soon. I don't know. I would like to talk to Bob Bailey on that one. 
Regarding "tricking". If your dog is moving around in anticipation, you are not rewarding the correct "state of mind" and you are probably going too fast. If the dog is truly listening to your release word and not concentrating on your body language, the anticipation goes away. I don't think my dogs regard their variable reward schedule as a trick or a guessing game. I think they view it as "pushing" me by their best heeling, to get me to produce the reward. But heeling by definition is variable (the position varies no matter how consistent we are) and pecking may not be.....
I will have to mull that over......


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