# Correction(s)



## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

The way I understand correction (or have understood correction) is that it is immediate, and in order for it to be truly effective, dog must be caught in said act with NO and then correction. Timing is everything.

Dog off leash (wearing prong and short line).
Command: Reviere.
Dog blows off searching empty blind and goes for helper he can see in the other blind. 
Handler yells NO and dog stops and pisses on bush.

How do you correct this dog?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

By kicking the handler for skipping steps in training.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> By kicking the handler for skipping steps in training.


I almost got here first with the link to the Foundation thread. :lol:


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> By kicking the handler for skipping steps in training.


BTW--this is not ME, this is a different team. Is this still how you would handle it??? lol.

The dog has a SchH I. "NO" is correction and go back to searching blinds?

What about pissing on the bush? The handler is 20 plus feet away?


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

For a young dog or one that is not 100%, they should never give a command unless they know for sure the dog will do it or that they can enforce the command or a way of doing correction from a distant, in this case, they should have a long line or electric, since this dog is already Sch1, he knows the command but decided to blow it off, he has no respect for the handler and so long line on the prong or electric is what he needs.


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

then is saying NO and as the dog goes to leave the "pissing ground" as handler approaches, then taking the dog 10 feet to the place of piss, and finally correcting with prong still acceptable or is the timing off and not fair to the dog ? 

Does NO "buy time" to take the dog to the place he screwed up for a correction to follow?

I always thought that NO means no, the dog stops and then no correction necessary. But NO and dog doesn't stop warrants "immediate" correction (within 3 or so seconds to avoid conflict)


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Michele McAtee said:


> then is saying NO and as the dog goes to leave the "pissing ground" as handler approaches, then taking the dog 10 feet to the place of piss, and finally correcting with prong still acceptable or is the timing off and not fair to the dog ?


Just to be clear, you're saying the handler said "no" as soon as it was evident the dog didn't do the blind search and instead broke for the live blind. After the No, then the dog went to pee. Then the handler went to the dog who had already moved away from the pee spot. The handler then took dog back to pee spot and physically corrected the dog in the area of the pee spot??

That's what it sounds like to me so I'm totally confused. And if that's the scenario, would the handler have done the same thing if the dog hadn't peed, but just sniffed the ground? 

Laura


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: BTW--this is not ME, this is a different team. Is this still how you would handle it??? lol.

Are you the TD ?? If not then why would you care really ?? It is their little experiment.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Yeah I am confused here too as to what exactly is the sequence of events. As an aside, if the dog understands the search command then to me, the word "no" is pointless, he already knows he's blowing off the handler the second he blows the blind and makes a bee line for the helper anyways. IF the dog is sent to do a blind search and veers off to sniff or urinate, there is always the possiblity of an avoidance issue, but I sure don't know the dog or if that 's the case, I'm just saying.... If the dog doesn't yet understand the search command then the word "no" is still pointless, because "no" is not a command.


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

Michele McAtee said:


> BTW--this is not ME, this is a different team. Is this still how you would handle it??? lol.
> 
> The dog has a SchH I. "NO" is correction and go back to searching blinds?
> 
> What about pissing on the bush? The handler is 20 plus feet away?


This could be a simple case of not having a good foundation in the blind search. The dog needs to be taught to go with the helper standing near the handler and rewarded for going with a bite. Eventually the dog should come into a sit -in-front in between the blinds making it OB for bites kind of thing.

Or...

Maybe the dog really had to go piss? Some dogs mine included do not function 100% when they have to shit or pee bad enough. I always make sure to relieve my dogs before each trip to the training flield or track. I am surprized how many times people I know have accidents (not the dogs fault IMO). Last time a woman at training's dog took a shit during OB..... I said why don't you just get in the habbit of taking your dog for a small walk aroung the parking lot before going on the field? She says "the dog was outside all day she should be fine".....](*,) She is a repeat offender in the worse way. With her the odds are about 80% that one of her dogs will piss or shit.

Just a thought!


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Michele McAtee said:


> then is saying NO and as the dog goes to leave the "pissing ground" as handler approaches, then taking the dog 10 feet to the place of piss, and finally correcting with prong still acceptable or is the timing off and not fair to the dog ?
> 
> Does NO "buy time" to take the dog to the place he screwed up for a correction to follow?
> 
> I always thought that NO means no, the dog stops and then no correction necessary. But NO and dog doesn't stop warrants "immediate" correction (within 3 or so seconds to avoid conflict)


The dog has to understand what no is (has been trained before with NO and then 2 seconds later correction), then yelling NO will buy you a little bit of time until you can reach the leash or your remote, but it all comes down to the foundation of training no, the dog needs to learn that he has a chance to beat the correction by changing his behavior, that is why you want to wait 2 seconds after no before correction, so as far as what happen, there is nothing they can do because they were too far and can't correction within 2 seconds, in the future, they should always have a way to correct the dog within 2 seconds after no, so as training goes on, and the dog gives the handler the finger when he knows what he is not supposed to do but do it anyway, then No and 2 seconds come correction, if this is consistent then they will have a 100% reliable dog.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: I always make sure to relieve my dogs before each trip to the training flield or track. I am surprized how many times people I know have accidents (not the dogs fault IMO)

This is another thing I hate about the Mal. I have to get to training early, or the damn dog is not gonna go until his little sphincter just cannot hold it. I have had the dog go on the field.

I don't even want to talk about what that idiot put me through while I was trying to get him to go before bitework.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Khoi Pham said:


> The dog has to understand what no is (has been trained before with NO and then 2 seconds later correction), then yelling NO will buy you a little bit of time until you can reach the leash or your remote, but it all comes down to the foundation of training no, the dog needs to learn that he has a chance to beat the correction by changing his behavior, that is why you want to wait 2 seconds after no before correction, so as far as what happen, there is nothing they can do because they were too far and can't correction within 2 seconds, in the future, they should always have a way to correct the dog within 2 seconds after no, so as training goes on, and the dog gives the handler the finger when he knows what he is not supposed to do but do it anyway, then No and 2 seconds come correction, if this is consistent then they will have a 100% reliable dog.


If you are talking about a do who actually knows the command, then I respectfully disagree. In a blind search, if I were to send the dog, call him back to me, but he flips me off & heads for helper, or send him to blind, dog does not go around at all, instead veers straight for helper I realize it and say "no" wait 2 seconds (1 mississippi, 2 mississippi) THEN correct him, he is already so far gone and either at or too close to the helper, he won't know what he is being corrected for. When my dog knows a command and tells me to **** off, I tell him the same but not verbal, with an immediate correction.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

No does not "buy" time. it marks the exact moment the dog was incorrect. If this was paired early in life with a correction the dog will understand that No means a correction is coming. I do not care if you chase the dog for 10 minutes. The dog must learn that once no is said, they can not escape.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

PP's covered some good points, but missed one possible situation. Peeing is a displacement behavior, when in the situation described. 

I first started finding out about displacement behaviors in disc dog training, where all training is done off-leash (  *gulp*). A frustrated or confused dog will leave the field, eliminate, or stop and sniff, as a way of dealing with stress. If it is a single incident, finding the source of the stress/conflict/confusion is the way to go. Occassionally, a dog's displacement behaviors become excessive. If you want to start correcting displacement behaviors, hang on for a long (mostly losing) battle. I did this with Em's when her displacement behaviors were excessive and a problem. The correction causes more displacement behaviors... it can get messy. What worked was to use a very FIRM correction for the displacement behavior - more so that for a misbehavior. 

Watch that team working, particularly whenever the trainer gives a verbal warning/correction/marker while the dog is off leash. (And tell me what you see - I'm curious!)


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> If you are talking about a do who actually knows the command, then I respectfully disagree. In a blind search, if I were to send the dog, call him back to me, but he flips me off & heads for helper, or send him to blind, dog does not go around at all, instead veers straight for helper I realize it and say "no" wait 2 seconds (1 mississippi, 2 mississippi) THEN correct him, he is already so far gone and either at or too close to the helper, he won't know what he is being corrected for. When my dog knows a command and tells me to **** off, I tell him the same but not verbal, with an immediate correction.


Your dog will learn much better and has clearer understanding and can do much higher advance training if you give him a chance to think and react, pairing No with immediate correction will work for sure but that just teach the dog to stop his action immediately, does not teach the dog to think and Voluntere changing his action, if he changed his action then you will praise him for obeying, you will have better bonding, communication with your dog if you wait and give him a chance to change.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Khoi Pham said:


> Your dog will learn much better and has clearer understanding and can do much higher advance training if you give him a chance to think and react, pairing No with immediate correction will work for sure but that just teach the dog to stop his action immediately, does not teach the dog to think and Voluntere changing his action, if he changed his action then you will praise him for obeying, you will have better bonding, communication with your dog if you wait and give him a chance to change.


uh huh, well, you actually wouldn't know that since you don't know me, my dog, how I train, what methods I use, or who I train with. But thanks anyway for the unsolicited advise about my dog. For me, there is not ever "only one way", nor is there always "one better way" that will automatically develop a better dog (sight unseen). Each dog is different, each trainer is different. Use what works with and for the individual. And yeah, well timed corrections sure DO make the dog "think". He thinks "I MUST everytime", my dog doesn't have any "options" when it comes to following my direction.


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## steve davis (Mar 24, 2009)

Michele McAtee said:


> The way I understand correction (or have understood correction) is that it is immediate, and in order for it to be truly effective, dog must be caught in said act with NO and then correction. Timing is everything.
> 
> Dog off leash (wearing prong and short line).
> Command: Reviere.
> ...


 
e collar


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

James Downey said:


> No does not "buy" time. it marks the exact moment the dog was incorrect. If this was paired early in life with a correction the dog will understand that No means a correction is coming. I do not care if you chase the dog for 10 minutes. The dog must learn that once no is said, they can not escape.


Understood. When training No means no, a mistake by the dog, followed by a NO from handler 20 feet away, gives the dog a moment to correct his behavior. THis can be followed with praise for stopping, or, if dog continues bad behavior, a correction, even if it is 10 seconds later is warranted and "fair". 

For some reason (leerburg stuff?) I was thinking it was 3 seconds for a physical correction to take place, otherwise the dog doesn't clearly understand the why's of the correction.




Khoi Pham said:


> Your dog will learn much better and has clearer understanding and can do much higher advance training if you give him a chance to think and react, pairing No with immediate correction will work for sure but that just teach the dog to stop his action immediately, does not teach the dog to think and Voluntere changing his action, if he changed his action then you will praise him for obeying, you will have better bonding, communication with your dog if you wait and give him a chance to change.


This makes a lot of sense too. I will say, in the example of the dog I provided, their work carried on as if nothing happened after a severe correction at the piss spot. 
For the record, the dog did have a chance to relieve himself before this work ensued. It appeared to be a flippant move (and/or displacement--which, thank you Anne for bringing that up, complicate the whole issue! lol) 

Susan, I do totally agree everyone has their methods and especially when it comes to corrections. I imagine your pup makes very few errors to warrant a bad arse correction anyway.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

> For some reason (leerburg stuff?) I was thinking it was 3 seconds for a physical correction to take place, otherwise the dog doesn't clearly understand the why's of the correction.


Not necessarily. In correction you can use what would be called an "intermediate bridge" if we were talking about pending reward rather than pending correction.

Mark the mis-behavior, and put on pressure, before the correction.

Scenario: My dog is offleash/offleash and breaks a stay. I'm 200 feet away. What can I do? Mark it! Stride her down. By the time I am to my dog, she has already stopped and rolled on her back. Quick correction and reset her into the stay (w/o talking!) and ENSURE the emainder of th stay is successful. 

I didn't deliver the correction within 3 seconds or whatever, but I definitely did not let her mind wander.

When Leerburg posts the source of the 3-second thing, I'll believe it. ... :-#


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Why is the handler 20+ ft away? 
This is one of the "skipping steps" that Jeff mentioned. 
To much distance before the dog is solid from a short distance.
I don't believe dogs just blow us off. I believe the dog just doesn't understand what is wanted.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Why would you listen to them anyway ?? Three is too long for some dogs. LOL


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Michele McAtee;127314
Susan said:


> Excuse me?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> Excuse me?





I thought that was a compliment.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I thought that was a compliment.


hmmmmm, I thought it was rather sarcastic, especially when combined with the snarky winky smiley afterwards. ;-);-);-);-);-);-);-)

but then I could be wrong!:grin: (real big smile)

P.S. Don't you hate people who use the "hmmmmmmm" in the beginning of a post? I do, it's such an affectation, I mean no one actually talks like that.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> ..... P.S. Don't you hate people who use the "hmmmmmmm" in the beginning of a post? I do, it's such an affectation, I mean no one actually talks like that.



Hmmmm. I will think about that. :lol:


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

Susan--it was stated with seriousness...I seriously can't see your dogs doing the F.Y. thing often (if ever) with you. And the wink thingy was "I know you know what I'm saying". Are you having a marg? Maybe we should have one together.  Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

No I am having a malinois meltdown.........but I am about to make myself a Chambord/vodka soda: 1oz Vodka; 1/2 oz Chambord, in a tall glass, fill with Club Soda, add a lemon wedge......then I will have a headache and go to bed.

PS hmmmmmmm my ass


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> No I am having a malinois meltdown.........but I am about to make myself a Chambord/vodka soda: 1oz Vodka; 1/2 oz Chambord, in a tall glass, fill with Club Soda, add a lemon wedge......then I will have a headache and go to bed.
> 
> PS hmmmmmmm my ass




Hmmmmm how come I am not invited for that drink? That sounds yumbo.


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Anne Vaini said:


> PP's covered some good points, but missed one possible situation. Peeing is a displacement behavior, when in the situation described.


Kinda what I was getting at by asking would the handler have corrected if the dog just sniffed the ground....another one of those things dogs do when they don't get it. 

The correction at the pee spot was funky, in my opinion. Did the handler forget that the dog blew off the blind search to find the helper and just address what they probably felt was the doggie dewclaw and correct the dog for peeing which isn't what it started out being wrong by doing? Hard to believe I deal with words for a living... My point was, the handler probably (I'm guessing) wouldn't have done the funky correction if the dog heard the No and just started sniffing around instead of peeing, even though in this instance they _probably_ mean the same thing.

Laura


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Michele McAtee said:


> Susan--it was stated with seriousness...I seriously can't see your dogs doing the F.Y. thing often (if ever) with you. And the wink thingy was "I know you know what I'm saying". Are you having a marg? Maybe we should have one together.  Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.


You got me all wrong, my Tiekerhook dog punked me on a regular basis.


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> You got me all wrong, my Tiekerhook dog punked me on a regular basis.


I wasn't talking about him, I was talking about the dog you have now. heeeee! 

And Laura, you deal with words for a living? Maybe you should deal with concepts, because despite your words, I got the concept.   Good question on the sniffing around. I don't think it is auto disqualification at a trial for sniffing around though.

Thank you all for helping me in my attempt to wrap my head around timing.


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Ha! I don't think it's an auto disqualification for eliminating in a USA trial...just ask the poor guy here in the Southwest region that did a Shit in Motion not one, but TWO years in a row at Regionals. Literally told his SchH3 dog to sit and the dog took a dookie. Was always V in protection, though. 

Laura


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Michele McAtee said:


> then is saying NO and as the dog goes to leave the "pissing ground" as handler approaches, then taking the dog 10 feet to the place of piss, and finally correcting with prong still acceptable or is the timing off and not fair to the dog ?


Im so totally confused on this............ so experienced folks help me out as I havent really read what to do in THIS situation just how to avoid it in the future......

Ok dogs blows off the first command (blind search)......handler says no........now what? Is the dog supposed to say "oh she said no now I must go around the blind?" IF and a big IF the dog happens to then follow the command did he not just learn that he do a crappy search and still get to the man or game in play? Wouldnt you call the dog back and make him start over? The "hier" command is used and the dog starts the sequence all over. When dog blows her off why not use the hier command after the NO or at least some other command....platz whatever? And where was the dog going to when he was "leaving the pissing ground"? Away from her? Towards her? If towards her why would she say "no" and then take the dog BACK to the pissing ground? Seems confusing to me. If the hier command was used why not correct the dog back to the handlers original location? He got the "no" form the blind search = correction. Cant get hte physical correction. Command heir.....dog goes to pee....pick dog up and lace with corrections back to the original location. I would think its confusing to correct the dog for urinating and leaving the spot only then to take it BACK to the spot and correct it there when that is not the command that was broken?


t


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

If you give a command to blind search and he ran somewhere else then this dog don't have alot of drive to bite, or something else is wrong, but to answer your question, you always start the exercise over, say NO to brake his immediate action of running lose, then call him back to fuss and start over. About the pissing, for a unreliable young dog, you should have a way of correcting bad behavior on the dog at anytime, either with a long line or electric, to me it doesn't do any good correcting way after the fact or taking him back to the pee spot, you have two seconds to correct the bad behavior or he might not be able to associated the bad behavior with correction.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

All I checked from this post is that Susan Tuck doesn't like posters who Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm and is partial to vodka.

I agree with her full heartedly.


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

lol Gillian.

And Laura, I was thinking "going" on the field was in the same category as biting the judge. My bad. Funny story about the [email protected]$ in motion though.

Khoi, the dog did glance at the empty blind and then caught wind of the helper in the other blind and went for it. The handler said NO and immediately, the dog stopped running and went within 2 feet to the bush to pee. No again. Dog stopped peeing. 

In hindsight, Tracey, it would have been ideal for an heir command at that point and start over.


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