# Aquiring breeding females/foundation bitches



## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

I came across a thread in another forum and someone talked about how some breeders use a bitch just because they paid a lot for her. Also it was implied that european breeders rarely export good bitches. 

Two questions 
1. Isn't it possible to have a rapport with a breeder to the point that they agree to sell you an older proven female which has produced well for them already? With this you could breed her at least twice and pick the best females to form your own line 

2. Would you rather go with a big kennel like salztablick or look for a small breeder 

i'll appreciate any inputs.


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> 1. Isn't it possible to have a rapport with a breeder to the point that they agree to sell you an older proven female which has produced well for them already? With this you could breed her at least twice and pick the best females to form your own line
> 
> i'll appreciate any inputs.


Let's do the math 2 litters average 6 pups per litter at $1500-$2000(American prices). 12x$1500-$2000=$18000 to $24000. Sure it's possible, but how much are you going to pay? I wouldn't give my own mother $18000-$24000 just because I like her.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

I didn't really get what you said, do you mean the breeders won't sell because of the additional money they can make? I was just thinking they might consider helping a beginner. Especially if I make the sacrifice and travel down. Thanks for the input though.


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Here we go,i can see your reasoning behind this.I also went true this when i was young.
Yes it is possible to get lucky but when you know how much time and dedication it takes to produce a good brood bitch or any dog for that matter you will be able to see that things are not that simple.
We all know of people who have a lot of money and who buy what ever the want but that does not make them a breeder(not a succes full one)
When i visited the Phillipines i met a man who bought a very nice Dutchie( Michael!!!!knpv lines)
They bred the dog a few times but only got pups not suitable for anything but in front of the fireplace(not many of those in the Phillies)Was there something wrong with the pups?
THe dog had been bred before in Holland and did produce some good offspring.
Why didn't it work out?
I may step on some toes saying this but i do not mean to degrade anybody and i do applaud young folks for wanting to do the right thing.
It is something i can not translate in to English so i do it in Dutch.It is called :heelhouden.
Maybe some one more language saffy can help me out.
It has to do with experience and the willingness to learn,it takes a lifetime to realize you still have a lot to learn. I am sure there is much more to it but you can not buy a good dog and keep it good without knowing how to maintain what they have you so badly want.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

jack van strien said:


> Here we go,i can see your reasoning behind this.I also went true this when i was young.
> Yes it is possible to get lucky but when you know how much time and dedication it takes to produce a good brood bitch or any dog for that matter you will be able to see that things are not that simple.
> We all know of people who have a lot of money and who buy what ever the want but that does not make them a breeder(not a succes full one)
> When i visited the Phillipines i met a man who bought a very nice Dutchie( Michael!!!!knpv lines)
> ...


Heelhouden als in, niet naar de kloten helpen door domme dingen te doen en je hond naar god te helpen... (ik neem aan dat je dit bedoelt?)

"Heelhouden" for me translates into basically not ****ing up your dog by doing stupid things with it and then whining how the dog did not do as expected because you pretty much ruined it by your own actions. Getting a good dog is one thing, keeping it that way is another.....


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Yes Alice ,thank you for helping me out!,but now people know our big secret.I have to go in hiding for breaking the rules,i hope they don't use KNPV dogs to find me!


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Thanks for the lengthy post, I Think I understand what you mean. I've seen some ridiculous tests for puppies and adults that could make a good dog look bad. 
But if just if there was someone really willing to learn for several years, I'd a good brood bitch really an impossible task? O mean everyone has to start from somewhere. 


jack van strien said:


> Here we go,i can see your reasoning behind this.I also went true this when i was young.
> Yes it is possible to get lucky but when you know how much time and dedication it takes to produce a good brood bitch or any dog for that matter you will be able to see that things are not that simple.
> We all know of people who have a lot of money and who buy what ever the want but that does not make them a breeder(not a succes full one)
> When i visited the Phillipines i met a man who bought a very nice Dutchie( Michael!!!!knpv lines)
> ...


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

jack van strien said:


> When i visited the Phillipines i met a man who bought a very nice Dutchie( Michael!!!!knpv lines)
> They bred the dog a few times but only got pups not suitable for anything but in front of the fireplace(not many of those in the Phillies)Was there something wrong with the pups?
> THe dog had been bred before in Holland and did produce some good offspring.
> Why didn't it work out?


Maybe the problem was the stud, not the bitch?


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

I'm with Leslie on that.
Of course you can get good females from Europe but helps if you have a trusted friend there or contact.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Maybe you just get bitches until you find one that you wish to be the base of your lines?


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## Stefan Schaub (Sep 12, 2010)

Does any one believe in the story of "snow white"!!

Europe is small,have many dog clubs and many people who train,breed,try to breed and some try to make money.

If someone sells his proven female something is wrong,if someone sells a young full trained female something is wrong.
how many brokers tell you that the female is only for sale because of a divorce!!for sure that happened,because we europeans are more active, but than the female does not leave the country or europe.to many people know the good producing females and wait that something is for sale.for a good female you have already more reservations for puppies before they are born. that means in Germany for example is the puppy price 1000euro,litter have 5 puppies makes 5000euros,1500euro down for stud,vet and so one.

left over 3500 euro= 4830$ in one litter
how much would someone pay here for a 7 year old female ,with maybe one or two litters to go.plus the flight (1200$)

One good example Desh vom Adelegg, mother of Zico Adelegg,one of the best producer of the last years.The owner have decide to sell her and who got her??someone in the Us or China?no Kennel Mohnwiese!!!why because people know each other and do not let go the good stuff out of the country.


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Lesson being dont buy females from Europe.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Many important points raised, but what if you had a friend in another country and you felt they were serious about breeding, would you be able to sell them a female that has already given you several good bitches and studs. 
For example,IF I was your friend in the future would you sell Ultra to me:lol:
If this isn't possible, what's your advice for those who wish to produce the kinds of dogs imported from Europe. 



Stefan Schaub said:


> Does any one believe in the story of "snow white"!!
> 
> Europe is small,have many dog clubs and many people who train,breed,try to breed and some try to make money.
> 
> ...


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

leslie cassian said:


> Maybe the problem was the stud, not the bitch?


The dog had produced good litters in europe but not in the Philipines... what does that tell you? It could be a problem with the male but maybe it was a problem of not knowing what to do, where to start, which dog to pick, or how to keep the pups that came from these litters from getting ruined. Just a thought... 

When breeding genetics only gets you half way, shame the other 50 percent of the maths gets forgotten here which is the person that ends up owning the pup and that could quite possibly ruin it before it ever got to show what its worth. There are many people out there, and on this forum, that would not even consider picking a certain pup because they feel they see something they might not like, they test and prod and poke and don't even get to the point where the pup grows up to show its true worth. It has to be instantly perfect, has to pass every test, has to be solid, drivey, nerve free, non vocal, blablablabla... There are so many things thrown at a pup and it hasn't even left the litter yet! They fail the pup before they even get to know it and call it bad stock which is quite sad because they stamp the dog in advance with a label that might be totally unsuitable or wrong and therefor give the dogs a bad name when in fact maybe they should be looking at themselves a bit more to see if perhaps they are not overtesting and making errors in their judgements. But hey, thats just my opinion :lol:


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

I wish there was a like button. =D> it would be nice to also hear from those who who have managed to get a few good bitches.  


Alice Bezemer said:


> The dog had produced good litters in europe but not in the Philipines... what does that tell you? It could be a problem with the male but maybe it was a problem of not knowing what to do, where to start, which dog to pick, or how to keep the pups that came from these litters from getting ruined. Just a thought...
> 
> When breeding genetics only gets you half way, shame the other 50 percent of the maths gets forgotten here which is the person that ends up owning the pup and that could quite possibly ruin it before it ever got to show what its worth. There are many people out there, and on this forum, that would not even consider picking a certain pup because they feel they see something they might not like, they test and prod and poke and don't even get to the point where the pup grows up to show its true worth. It has to be instantly perfect, has to pass every test, has to be solid, drivey, nerve free, non vocal, blablablabla... There are so many things thrown at a pup and it hasn't even left the litter yet! They fail the pup before they even get to know it and call it bad stock which is quite sad because they stamp the dog in advance with a label that might be totally unsuitable or wrong and therefor give the dogs a bad name when in fact maybe they should be looking at themselves a bit more to see if perhaps they are not overtesting and making errors in their judgements. But hey, thats just my opinion :lol:


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Oluwatobi,i gues what Alice and i are trying to tell you there are no shortcuts.
You have to endure many hours of heat,cold,pounding rain and many bruises to get what you need and that is experience.
As i said before i do applaud people for wanting to do the right thing and learning the hard way,but that is the only way?
If you would get a great bitch tomorrow would you be able to recognise what you have and keep it the way it should be?
I found my best dog under some ones couch and i took him home because i saw something in him.
I was stubborn enough to see it through and he became a very serious working dog,he had lots of flaws.
He had no drive,did not want to play,hated to swim and ate most of my chickens(my fault)
But he had courage ,and lots of it and that is all i wanted from him.I taught him the rest.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Thanks, I do get the message. I don't mind being a 'kennel boy's for a few years in Europe if that what it takes. I have time on my side. Just needed a few pointers from people like u on how to start. There is a difference between something being difficult and being impossible. Thanks again for the inputs, something to add to my diary. 



jack van strien said:


> Oluwatobi,i gu,es what Alice and i are trying to tell you there are no shortcuts.
> You have to endure many hours of heat,cold,pounding rain and many bruises to get what you need and that is experience.
> As i said before i do applaud people for wanting to do the right thing and learning the hard way,but that is the only way?
> If you would get a great bitch tomorrow would you be able to recognise what you have and keep it the way it should be?
> ...


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## Annamarie Somich (Jan 7, 2009)

Sometimes you have to start from scratch. Find the best female pup you can and start breeding. The only way to get quality breeding bitches that fit your standards and your breeding program is to breed and keep back your own stock. You may reject a lot of pups in your first 2 generations to continue breeding off of - maybe 90%. Give your female pups LOTS of time to fully mature and get their heads together. Make sure they are good breeders and mothers too. Now this does not mean that you can start with very poor stock and build up. The genes have to be there, maybe not the whole package or not necessarily a fit for your perfect picture. Make good stud choices to complement the females. Map out a 3 to 5 generation plan and get started. 

Keep back a good male pup for yourself or place your males in the best working positions you can find. Try to get a solid female pup to breed to your male prodigies so you can have 2 lines going.

You have to start somewhere. 

Another way to start, which I would love to do but folks here in the US are weird about it, is to lease a bitch for a breeding.


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

If I wanted to start breeding I would find a dog I like with parents still alive. Contact the females owner and ask for a repeat breeding and prebuy the entire litter. Less risk for everyone involved. And you decide which pups to keep over a longer period of time.


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Some of you still do not get it,if you got all of the female pups from a certain litter how would you know wich one to keep?
All of them?not very economical i think.
How would you test?Do you intend to go to dogshows to have the exterior rated?
Go for IPO 1 2 3?French ring?Temperment test?
This all is nice but it does not mean anything,test(but how) the dog at five years?
The dog is a very superior animal in everything except the hips are not perfect.Dilemma?
The dog is only part of the equation,it is up to you to figure the rest out.
Yes rent a proven bitch produce a litter and all will be fine?
Start from scratch and learn about your breed,work with good dogs and lesser ones.
Imo it is just as possible to find a great dog in some ones kitchen as opposed to respond to an ad for an extreme working litter.(not trying to be smart here)
You need to learn to recognize what you are looking for and take it from there.
In the past in the Netherlands it was acceptable or even great if there was one good pup in a litter,now some litters all get certified.
You need experience first and that usually takes half a life time or more,but if this is what you want----
go for it!


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Jack, again I wish there was a like button. This is what I've been waiting for. I come from a country where people prefer showline Gsds and overweight molossers for protection. Id be mega poor if i took breeding as a career 

[QUOTE=jack van strien;556145]Some of you still do not get it,if you got all of the female pups from a certain litter how would you know wich one to keep?
All of them?not very economical i think.
How would you test?Do you intend to go to dogshows to have the exterior rated?
Go for IPO 1 2 3?French ring?Temperment test?
This all is nice but it does not mean anything,test(but how) the dog at five years?
The dog is a very superior animal in everything except the hips are not perfect.Dilemma?
The dog is only part of the equation,it is up to you to figure the rest out.
Yes rent a proven bitch produce a litter and all will be fine?
Start from scratch and learn about your breed,work with good dogs and lesser ones.
Imo it is just as possible to find a great dog in some ones kitchen as opposed to respond to an ad for an extreme working litter.(not trying to be smart here)
You need to learn to recognize what you are looking for and take it from there.
In the past in the Netherlands it was acceptable or even great if there was one good pup in a litter,now some litters all get certified.
You need experience first and that usually takes half a life time or more,but if this is what you want----
go for it![/QUOTE]


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## Stefan Schaub (Sep 12, 2010)

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> Many important points raised, but what if you had a friend in another country and you felt they were serious about breeding, would you be able to sell them a female that has already given you several good bitches and studs.
> For example,IF I was your friend in the future would you sell Ultra to me:lol:
> If this isn't possible, what's your advice for those who wish to produce the kinds of dogs imported from Europe.


Orla have die at my house,Franka will die at my house and Ultra will die at my house. I think you owe it to the dog after so many years of producing great dogs for you.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Lol was kidding about Ultra. 


[QUOTE=Stefan Schaub;556226]Orla have die at my house,Franka will die at my house and Ultra will die at my house. I think you owe it to the dog after so many years of producing great dogs for you.[/QUOTE]


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## Annamarie Somich (Jan 7, 2009)

Oluwatobi,

I'm going to keep this thread positive for you because I see a lot of passion, hunger for knowledge, resourcefulness and tenacity in you through all of your posts.

Breeding, along with training, requires experience. I do not see why you have to wait 25 years to gain experience evaluating, training, competing before beginning a breeding program. If you wait too long, you will be too old to even see your breeding accomplishments because breeding requires a long term plan. 

Start small with your breeding program. Try to find a few nice female pups to grow up. Give them lots of time to mature and work them to determine how they respond to training. You will need to know how to train her pups too. Learn her maturation timelines so you can learn how to select her puppies. You do not need to title a bitch to determine what she has to offer genetically. Breed her. If you like one of her female pups better than her, then wash her out and go forward with her daughter. 

There is no easy way to start breeding. Folks with good bitches will not part with them. When you buy a pup, do not expect that a popular breeding will necessarily produce a good pup. Breeding is a wait and see game along with making the best educated and informed guess you can make. Just plan on having a couple of female pups running around the place. At least they are dogs, not racehorses, and have shorter lifespans! Along with your decoy hat, your trainer hat, you need to put on a rancher hat too!

Good luck.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Do not forget a bitches mothering abilities and skills are of utmost importance.


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## Annamarie Somich (Jan 7, 2009)

Yes Joby, and I also include a female that is not dog aggressive during breeding. AI isn't cheap, especially when you have to consider the progesterone testing costs.

Also, a female may not be 100 percent the total package, but she may produce better than herself when she is paired with the right male.

Expect cycles in your generations because traits tend to skip generations. You may have a generation of producers and their offspring are the super atheletes, etc. 

Breeding is a long term project or hobby.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Anna,
Thanks for the kind words, really...... I think many people avoided my question because they thought i was the next potential inexperienced GSD guy that wants to make money from breeding#-o:lol:. Thing is i didn't just ask for personal reasons.
I wouldn't be able to make money from breeding even if i wanted to, My country folks prefer showline GSDs or overweight molossers and live under the assumption they'll get protection. I'm the guy that used his tuition fees to buy a puppy from Germany(more on that soon) and has to work at a restaurant part time because of that. Few things make me happy the way dogs do. 
Nonetheless, i appreciate the inputs. In the future i hope to represent my country in the big competitions, learning one step at a time



Annamarie Somich said:


> Oluwatobi,
> 
> I'm going to keep this thread positive for you because I see a lot of passion, hunger for knowledge, resourcefulness and tenacity in you through all of your posts.
> 
> ...


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## Stefan Schaub (Sep 12, 2010)

Annamarie Somich said:


> Oluwatobi,
> 
> I'm going to keep this thread positive for you because I see a lot of passion, hunger for knowledge, resourcefulness and tenacity in you through all of your posts.
> 
> ...


Can you proof what you say? or can you give me a example of what you mean.

for sure he need experience or someone on his hand with experience. how can he knows how a good female should work, no training no clue about her ability!!!!!
never trained a dog means no clue how a dog should work. some people see during the week 30 and more dogs in training and get their experience with all different kind of behavior , nerve ,handler and genetically problems.


or he can make it easy like the most people here in the US, by a titled female from Europe,breed her a few times with a male because someone told him he is good(because he can not know) and get a new one.
How many working dog breeder do you know here in the US who are breeding in the 3 or more generation with proofen work success and how many kennel do you know who have a couple different females from all over the place and try to breed a working dog and never see any own breed dogs in their kennel. some are breeding so well that they must by a dog to compete from a other kennel.

@Tobi
only experience makes you better!!that is with everything in live, train with good people and learn what a good dog is!!!!


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## Gus Pineda (Jul 2, 2013)

Oluwatobi,

If there are any breeders in your area that produce dogs you like, I would try and join the same training clubs. I believe breeders tend to place their most promising pups with people they know will give the dog a good career, so good way of networking and securing better pups in the future. 
The dog on your link looks really nice by the way.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Annamarie Somich said:


> Yes Joby, and I also include a female that is not dog aggressive during breeding. AI isn't cheap, especially when you have to consider the progesterone testing costs.
> 
> Also, a female may not be 100 percent the total package, but she may produce better than herself when she is paired with the right male.
> 
> ...


for me, dog aggression has been more of the norm than the exception, even with aggressive bitches its much less common for them to be highly aggressive if the timing is right to do the breeding.

Nothing a muzzle and a little physical help/control cant overcome, this is a non issue for me. It usually only causes issues with inexperienced people, such as some stud owners. 

If I bring a bitch to be bred in muzzle and am willing to get in there, I would expect any stud owner to be able to help get the job done, period.


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## Annamarie Somich (Jan 7, 2009)

Stefan, Oluwatobi IS CURRENTLY TRAINING AND DECOYING. I would never assume that someone go into breeding working dogs without being involved in training. BECAUSE BREEDING WORKING DOGS IS ALL ABOUT BREEDING FOR WORKING TEMPERAMENT AND ABILITY. 

I can list several breeders in the US who have money and are importing dogs and breeding. Notice, none of these folks frequent this or similar forums. They have different goals in mind, namely getting their money back on their purchases. They don't have a clue, nor care to learn, about truly breeding a line of working dogs. They are creating breedings for profit. These breeders don't even know how to properly test and select their own puppies for sport or work.

The reason for this thread is that Oluwatobi is seriously interested in breeding and is feeling overwhelmed about how to start. I have been following him on this forum and take him as a straight forward guy. I don't see him in it for a quick buck either. 

Now Stefan, why don't YOU help him out. Help him find a good affordable female GSD pup. I can send him a one of my females but I have mals.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Sometimes when larger kennels have finished breeding with a female due to her age (she may be 8 - 9 years) they may sell her cheaper to make room in their kennel for a new female who is going to be their next breeding bitch. Keeping lots of dogs in Europe is far more expensive than here and the US, so alot of breeders might not want to feed a female for the next 4 years when she gives them no puppies.
But with all the stories you told me about how you have seen so many super GSDs it should be easy to find a good breeding bitch?


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## Annamarie Somich (Jan 7, 2009)

"Can you proof what you say? or can you give me a example of what you mean."

Yes I can prove what I say. I am in my second generation of breeding. You are welcome to test my dogs. In fact, I have 3-8 month olds I'm raising up for LE homes - 1 female and 2 males. They are as good as their parents and their grandfather and 100% better than their grandmother.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Annamarie Somich said:


> "Can you proof what you say? or can you give me a example of what you mean."
> 
> Yes I can prove what I say. I am in my second generation of breeding. You are welcome to test dogs.


Be very careful about picking fights for your dogs. Ask Mr. Turnipseed.


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## Stefan Schaub (Sep 12, 2010)

Annamarie Somich said:


> Stefan, Oluwatobi IS CURRENTLY TRAINING AND DECOYING. I would never assume that someone go into breeding working dogs without being involved in training. BECAUSE BREEDING WORKING DOGS IS ALL ABOUT BREEDING FOR WORKING TEMPERAMENT AND ABILITY.
> 
> I can list several breeders in the US who have money and are importing dogs and breeding. Notice, none of these folks frequent this or similar forums. They have different goals in mind, namely getting their money back on their purchases. They don't have a clue, nor care to learn, about truly breeding a line of working dogs. They are creating breedings for profit. These breeders don't even know how to properly test and select their own puppies for sport or work.
> 
> ...



I did!!!

and yes he have start to learn, but for sure not with the right people!!!maybe you should ask him what i told him!!


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## Stefan Schaub (Sep 12, 2010)

Annamarie Somich said:


> "Can you proof what you say? or can you give me a example of what you mean."
> 
> Yes I can prove what I say. I am in my second generation of breeding. You are welcome to test my dogs. In fact, I have 3-8 month olds I'm raising up for LE homes - 1 female and 2 males. They are as good as their parents and their grandfather and 100% better than their grandmother.


do not let go there!! if you know already now that they are good as their parents and their grandparents than we have two options.The parents are bad or you are a psychic!!

for real how can you say that! your dogs are still babies. i wish you that you are right but no one can tell with 3-8 month how good a dog turns out.


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## Annamarie Somich (Jan 7, 2009)

OK Stephan, tell us how to go about obtaining a foundation bitch because that was the point of this thread - if a person likes a certain line and breeders won't sell their female puppies and breeding stock.


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## Annamarie Somich (Jan 7, 2009)

I'm stepping out of this thread. I just took it as though the posters where down on anyone trying to do any breeding with a 20 year plan - someone serious like myself. There must be something going on behind the scenes with the op and the folks who have posted that I am unaware of.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Anna, 
Actually I starTed the thread based on what I saw on another forum about people only breeding because they paid a lot for the dog. I apologize if I made you think there's some hidden agenda, none To the best of my knowledge. 
I do appreciate your post, I'm still a novice partly due to where I am now. I was asked if I want to learn the basics by a reputable breeder here to which I have said Yes,still waiting for his reply. 
I Never imagined I'd cause so much trouble Lol..... actually this question applies more to new and established breeders not novices like me. I hope no one was truly offended. 




Annamarie Somich said:


> I'm stepping out of this thread. I just took it as though the posters where down on anyone trying to do any breeding with a 20 year plan - someone serious like myself. There must be something going on behind the scenes with the op and the folks who have posted that I am unaware of.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

I think the point that Stefan is trying to make is that you can not judge a young dog by its present state as to what it will turn out to be in the future. It is something I agree with. A dog is the sum of its experiances in its life so at 3 months or 8 months you can not say that it will be a good or even excellent or even poor dog, all you can say is that it might be a promissing dog for the future, that you might have high expectations for the dog or that maybe it has disappointed you so far....

Just because a dog develops in a certain manner at a young age is no guarantee for the future of the dog. The future of the dog is FULLY dependant of the hand that holds the leash. Put dog A in the hands of an experianced trainer at it might become a top class grade A dog. Put dog A in the hands of a newbie and dog A might become as useless as a 5 legged chicked....

And lets not forget the whole "good dog" idea here? One man's gold is another man's coal... Just because you think your dog is good doesn't mean you have a good dog, it is just your perception of what you feel about your dog and the guy next door might think its a POS that shouldn't be allowed to live. 

Let me explain how views can vary over time with a dog. My own dog Robbie 1 at age 14 months had me doubting him at several times and I swore at that moment that I would never take another dog of that particular line because I saw thing I did not like in him and he was ready to move kennel as far as I was concerned but I decided to stick with it since there were things that showed me he did have what it took and I am glad that I proved myself wrong about him. At 20 months he came into his own and proved to me that he was in fact a good dog, a very good dog even. One that I still regret selling to be honest. Now I could have gotten rid of him and said "well he was just not up to scratch, he was a poor dog..." and how stupid would I have been then! Because I didn't really know at 14 months what he would show at 20 months or how he would continue to grow into becoming an excellent dog.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I kind of understand where Tobi is and where Anna is coming from as well as Stefan and Alice. I think you can reconcile these and have a course of action. In another breed, I too was told you have to start with this icon type of bitch. Trouble is, no one will sell you one. So I started with a bitch with good character and health. Pedigree was trash on the dam side. I can't tell you how many people said I was mad as a hatter. She produced better than herself in one step and each time I bred her--always maintaining her best qualities. The puppies I kept back had her best qualities, plus what I was trying to obtain by breeding to the stud dog--his best qualities and qualities he was known for producing. A breeder once told me that if you don't get in the puppies what you bred for, don't keep any. I also made the mistake of placing my best and won't do this again even though I maintained breeding rights and a co-ownership. I heard all of the naysayer experience responses. I find that most want satellites for their own program or a source for money or kennel clean out--so beware. I am also the type who is willing to take a step back in order to go forward. In other words, some things I will gamble and some I won't. You have to sit down and ask yourself where you stand on all points and then select with a vengeance. There is no room for compromise and kennel blindness. The dog in front of you that you have to start with, you may not totally like but you also have to ask yourself realistically, can you do better. I'm never sure of a dog until its reached the first leg of maturity--age three and I have put it through all of my testing situations. I generally have a diary for that dog in terms of how it matured in the work, socially, structurally, etc. If I decide to breed it, then I have all of the information. Compromising certain mental traits and health is a very slippery slope so choose wisely. Know the totality of mental traits not just this single selection for game type aggression. If you like GSDS then understand why they are not Mals and Dutchies mentally and appreciate that. Otherwise Mals and Dutchies are a lot easier to get into and probably cheaper 

I think its true that you should find the best bitch you can to start with. But what is even more important is to know who and what she is so that you will know what she needs to complement and improve her in terms of breeding. You will need PATIENCE. It takes patience to walk away from those that don't make the cut; patience to raise the dog and test the dog to maturity to know what you have; patience to research and select the right breeding partner. Coming from a helper perspective is a plus I think. There are things that you can see in a dog from that perspective that can influence your decision making. Others don't have that vantage point. As a helper, I'd make myself available to test anything in the area--wealth of knowledge/information. I test entire litters for people and usually the cost is they must give me a copy of the pedigree. A lot of times I get to see that dog again at maturity and make correlations between the adult behaviors and the puppy behaviors. They always match up. Like Alice, I raised one dog that I swore defied my puppy testing and selection from 5 months--18 months. Then, wallah!!! He was a dog of a life time. So again, patience with puppy raising and evaluation is a must. You have to commit and see it through once you make the initial selection. Some people have the vantage point of knowing and believing in a line. I rarely have that so depend a LOT on my puppy testing.

If you are looking for a bitch, your best bet is someone who has bred a multi-generational line. I find those are few and far between. Here we have breeders that have bred dogs for 30 years and can't trace a line--just keep importing and breeding dog A to dog B. Maybe you can get lucky and find someone that is into males and not wise enough to know that the strength is in the bitches.  Otherwise, you might be waiting a long time. So if it were me, I'd start with having basic character traits [general confidence and environmental nerves] and HEALTH. 

You also have to know yourself. I'm a trainer at heart and attach, so the dog I got recently, I transferred from their crate to mine and off we went to take a look at environmental nerves. If I didn't like what I saw, they wouldn't be too far down the road.

Its always exciting to see passion for GSDs. So good luck and keep the rest of us besotted GSD folks posted on your progress.

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> I came across a thread in another forum and someone talked about how some breeders use a bitch just because they paid a lot for her. Also it was implied that european breeders rarely export good bitches.
> 
> Two questions
> 1. Isn't it possible to have a rapport with a breeder to the point that they agree to sell you an older proven female which has produced well for them already? With this you could breed her at least twice and pick the best females to form your own line
> ...


Looks like the thread has strayed a bit. As to #1: I find this highly suspect. Who sells a bitch that has produced well to someone else. Furthermore, how old are the progeny and how well tested to draw this conclusion. I did lease a bitch from someone I knew well and had a great rapport with--what a disaster . My rule of thumb is if they are willing to sell it after it has produced--dig deep and research. Furthermore, I tend to think like Stefan--that bitch will finish out her life with me. I owe her that. #2: I'm probably more likely to go with a small breeder but can see pros and cons to both depending on their motivations and the type of people you are dealing with. 

Congrats on the baby puppy. Looking forward to reading more about her.

T


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

I like what Alice, Jack and Terrasita are saying.

I think it's a bit sad that generally new breeders are just buying the hard work of older breeders and going from there. What's wrong with developing your own line from scratch?

I'll tell you what is wrong with that, it takes too long and no-one will buy your puppies.

Breeder: I iz gotta get me a HARDKOWA bee-atch and produce........ da sames as everyone else........ gonna sell me some sons of (insert typical name here).

Buyer: I needz me a HADKOWA son of satan real dog turbo drivey mother****er thats gonna chow down on my hand when I hits him with a stick. 

We have a silly person in this country doing just that in a high profile way and loads on the lowdown. All the gear no idea.

This does not IMO generally improve the breed as a whole, genepool tightening follows and then come the diseases. It's a shortcut to success and IMO not worth any respect.
Yes using proven dogs is the way to go but you see so many 'Sire is Son of Satan' dam is 'daughter of Goat of Mendes' litters and just think, oh well done, you bought a xerox machine.

Making your own line from scratch is harder but you can look at it in 20 years time and say 'I did that, I made a good line for myself and future generations by improving the breed as a whole, the proof will be in the adverts for 'Sire, son of (your dog)'

Most ironical and very funny indeed.......


PS: none of the above is aimed at or eluding to the intentions or personality of the OP, it is just my observations of the game as a whole.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Annamarie Somich said:


> Oluwatobi,
> 
> I'm going to keep this thread positive for you because I see a lot of passion, hunger for knowledge, resourcefulness and tenacity in you through all of your posts.
> 
> ...


+1. It's annoying how many folks tell people to spend I lifetime amassing knowledge so they can produce their first litter when they are 65. I'd be willing to bet the knowledge you gain from the experience of that first litter will match all the research before them.

I will share my plan as I'm in similar shoes as you. I have a male that is nearly exactly what I want in a working dog, and acquired a female pup that should have turned out to be a good compliment. She has exceeded my expectations, and so we are breeding here in a month or so. I have a number of them placed in sport homes and will hopefully be donating several to local law enforcement. One will stay back with me. In a few years time I'll know better what was produced and make my next breeding or any course corrections then what's I have more data.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

interesting thread to read thru
i have a totally different view on breeding so i might as well throw it into the pile 

1. i feel STRONGLY the biggest problems with most breeds imo is there are too many being bred !
2. i think before anyone of ANY age should start breeding seriously, they should have gained hands on experience with MANY dogs of the same breed. from cradle to grave, and with hands on experience doing what the breed was "designed" for.
*notice i didn't say this was age dependent .... i believe it should be DOG dependent

3. after that requirement is met, a potential breeder should have only two goals in mind :
a)improve health
b)improve performance
........in that order of priority

4. then breed on; but don't expect quick results

- i guess it should be obvious i expect and demand a lot more from breeders than i do from trainers and owners
- but any successes gained by taking short cuts is just due to luck imo


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Hunter,good luck to you.However you are not a breeder but a multiplier,i guess i am too old to have valuable experience afa dogs are concerned.
I will let other people carry on with this thread,i feel tired and old.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

rick smith said:


> interesting thread to read thru
> i have a totally different view on breeding so i might as well throw it into the pile
> 
> 1. i feel STRONGLY the biggest problems with most breeds imo is there are too many being bred !
> ...


I agree. In my case I had no intention of breeding, but a after working with (on both sides of the dogs) many dogs from not even club level to world level sport dogs, and several full time working dogs of various disciplines, I'm painfully aware of what's lacking in my breed of choice. I'm honestly very hesitant to even get a puppy from a litter I don't know the parents well because of that awareness. To be clear, I didn't say or want to come off as saying "to hell with experience, I'll figure it out along the way". I actually first considered breeding bc I realized I really had something special, and even then I back burnered it till all the health tests and working ability was proven. The fact that my dogs are 4 and 6 should show I'm not rushing anything lol. Still you've got to start somewhere. I feel like I've done all the homework I can.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Like ^^ and Ricks


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Matt Vandart said:


> I like what Alice, Jack and Terrasita are saying.
> 
> I think it's a bit sad that generally new breeders are just buying the hard work of older breeders and going from there. What's wrong with developing your own line from scratch?
> 
> ...


Is it who I think it is? :lol: The one i'm talking about has already bred proven litters according to her own views. They are 4 months old and all proven quality ](*,) She would make a good poster child for "What you shouldn't do as a breeder." Daft cow :lol:


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Lots of great information here,but again I'm not trying a position to Breed. I sometimes post in the police K-9 section even though I might Never get to be an officer :razz:
I do hope someone gained something.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

as far as my post goes ....
i know you are not beginning a career as a breeder, Olu 

- i only posted what i did because i have very strong feelings about breeding in general and this thread started talking about that subject.
- i can see how being young and enthusiastic can present problem, and how many young people who might lack the experience i described would start breeding ... 
1. cause they can 
2. cause they feel they have enuff experience

i just doubt that they will all follow thru and be ruthless in sticking to the goals every breeder should follow
- there will probably be too many distractions that come along and compete for their interest and the passion for breeding 

of course i also feel the same way about people 
.....too many "breeders" //lol//
so my opinion really doesn't matter at all and for SURE won't make difference //lol//


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> I came across a thread in another forum and someone talked about how some breeders use a bitch just because they paid a lot for her. Also it was implied that european breeders rarely export good bitches.
> 
> Two questions
> 1. Isn't it possible to have a rapport with a breeder to the point that they agree to sell you an older proven female which has produced well for them already? With this you could breed her at least twice and pick the best females to form your own line
> ...


I am sure this would be possible. There are many good and honest breeders in Germany and Switzerland. Cannot speak for the rest of Europe as I have no knowledge.

I cannot believe that all European breeders import all crap to the USA!!

Over the years there have been many good dogs imported to the States. What has been achieved with them??

The French imported their best wines to England and we were able to sample them at a portion of the cost in Switzerland. Why would they import rubbish? The same is for canines.

Why would a well renowned kennel import a dud dog? News goes around and can only harm the kennel.

I have no experience of importing a dog but have had two good dogs I bought from local kennels in Germany: Randegger Schloss and Haus Pixner.

Maybe you can tell me what you think you can do to achieve your aims. You could come to Europe. You could write to some kennels, of which I can give you an address, albeit I am not a breeder but maybe I can help you.

There are good breeders in Europe who are honest and only wish to help you.



Look forward to hearing from you.


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## Gus Pineda (Jul 2, 2013)

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> Anna,
> I was asked if I want to learn the basics by a reputable breeder here to which I have said Yes,still waiting for his reply.


If breeder agrees with it, without calling out who the advice is coming from, would be great if it can be shared.


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## Stefan Schaub (Sep 12, 2010)

Gus Pineda said:


> If breeder agrees with it, without calling out who the advice is coming from, would be great if it can be shared.


i asked him. we have over 40 dogs here for training,we have LE coming here for training.we have board and training dogs and we breed here our own females and we get every few weeks a female from outside for our studs.he have the chance to get involved in full time dog live with different parts of the business. 

He is willing to learn and he is young and fresh(not wasted with crazy things in his head).

I have start in IPO never with the goal to breed, than have train with LE and the other side (my friends from the red light districts)

have go week for week to knpv clubs only to watch and learn good and bad, same in belgian ring. if you are not open to learn you can not have success, we say in germany, you must watch over the edge of your plate.

and if someone is willing to learn!!!! i m more than happy to give things back.
i hooked him up with my bff for his new puppy and now i hope that he can make at one point the next steep.


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

Gus Pineda said:


> If breeder agrees with it, without calling out who the advice is coming from, would be great if it can be shared.


I'm sure if this happens. He will be able to explain that the things he learns can't be taught from books, videos, or forums. It can only be learned from working dogs.


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## Gus Pineda (Jul 2, 2013)

Stefan Schaub said:


> i hooked him up with my bff for his new puppy and now i hope that he can make at one point the next steep.


Yes, that IS a nice pup, I remembered your preference for Agent when I saw the pedigree. 

Always nice to read your no-sugar-added posts, thanks.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Tobi, very rarely would you get an opportunity to be able to experience what Stefan has offered. Id take it up and I dont even own GSDs anymore lol.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Haha definitely. I'm graduating in October. I hope the offer still stands them. Even if I just get a 2 year stay at the kennel I'm sure it would go a long way. . Will post the pictures of Gina (new pup ) here as soon as I can. 


[QUOTE=Christopher Jones;557249]Tobi, very rarely would you get an opportunity to be able to experience what Stefan has offered. Id take it up and I dont even own GSDs anymore lol.[/QUOTE]


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> Haha definitely. I'm graduating in October. I hope the offer still stands them. Even if I just get a 2 year stay at the kennel I'm sure it would go a long way. . Will post the pictures of Gina (new pup ) here as soon as I can.
> 
> 
> [QUOTE=Christopher Jones;557249]Tobi, very rarely would you get an opportunity to be able to experience what Stefan has offered. Id take it up and I dont even own GSDs anymore lol.


[/QUOTE]

Enjoy!!!! Thought that pedigree looked like a pie Stefan had his finger in  A training decoy with his pedigree and working knowledge of the breed you want to do, probably doesn't come around too often in life. You're in for some high times and being a guy, the locker room humor probably won't send you into :roll:](*,):twisted:

T


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

There are excellent brood bitches born everyday. And you can get them the same way as people in Europe do. You buy a puppy and hope for the best. Or you offer a lot of money. Even the noble Europeans will sell if the price is right.:wink:


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

There are good brood bitches born everyday. And you can get them the same way as people in Europe do. You buy a puppy and hope for the best or you offer a lot of money. Even the noble Europeans will sell if the price is right.:wink:


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

GINA ARRIVED ON THE 4TH )) I haven't felt like a little boy in a long time....She just started kissing and trying to bite right out of the crate, really confident girl. Just needs some housebreaking for now so i dont drive the neighbours crazy!!:mrgreen:
BTW, It's water on the floor, not her pee


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> GINA ARRIVED ON THE 4TH )) I haven't felt like a little boy in a long time....She just started kissing and trying to bite right out of the crate, really confident girl. Just needs some housebreaking for now so i dont drive the neighbours crazy!!:mrgreen:
> BTW, It's water on the floor, not her pee


Stop squeezing her so hard Obi! You're squeezin the tongue out of her :lol:

Awesome lookin girl you have there, Love the eyes.. Hope they stay that colour. I Hope she brings you lots of joy, Obi! :wink:


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

And here I thought she was just sticking her tongue out at all of us. Pretty girl. 

I like the heavy looking bone in the front legs (can't stand dogs with spindly feet). Good deal.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Lol I wasn't expecting that much energy after a long flight ,unfortunately for now my legs are more interesting than any toy. Thanks for the wishes, hope she turns out fine. 



Alice Bezemer said:


> Stop squeezing her so hard Obi! You're squeezin the tongue out of her :lol:
> 
> Awesome lookin girl you have there, Love the eyes.. Hope they stay that colour. I Hope she brings you lots of joy, Obi! :wink:


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> GINA ARRIVED ON THE 4TH )) I haven't felt like a little boy in a long time....She just started kissing and trying to bite right out of the crate, really confident girl. Just needs some housebreaking for now so i dont drive the neighbours crazy!!:mrgreen:
> BTW, It's water on the floor, not her pee



Congratulations. I hope she makes you and her breeder proud. 

Mind sharing her pedigree? 



Regards


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/2534939/Gloria-vom-Eisernen-Kreuz

Thanks, I'll try my best.  




Tiago Fontes said:


> Congratulations. I hope she makes you and her breeder proud.
> 
> Mind sharing her pedigree?
> 
> ...


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> I wish there was a like button. =D> it would be nice to also hear from those who who have managed to get a few good bitches.


I think you have to start with what it is YOU are looking for. What have you learned or seen that defines a "foundation" female? What should her character, work ethic/drives, structure, nerve, (and whatever all else you believe important) be like? What breeder owns a female like the one you want? Which combination produced her? Does breeding her compliment her or does she allow the studs genes to be expressed without inhibition? Which combination (s) have produced the best litters or individual dogs? 

While friendship is important, trust is even more important. Part of your willingness to ensure the breed/line will be in good hands, can be expressed in your willingness to pay the cost for a great brood bitch. Whatever that may be. The majority of working dog people already know what has been explained. Friend or foe, they're not letting a good producer, male or female, leave the country. Not going to happen. And, no one on here knows what kind of relationship you have with your friend. Our answers would not reflect his response to your request. Anyways, good luck with your en devour. I hope it works out for you.


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## Stefan Schaub (Sep 12, 2010)

I think Tobi have get a puppy with a nice background in mother and father line.

The mom have already produced nice dogs with my Quardes 

http://old.stream.cz/uservideo/845643-dexter-vom-eisernen-kreuz-protection

http://old.stream.cz/uservideo/845662-eysha-vom-eisernen-kreuz-protection

http://old.stream.cz/uservideo/845735-dina-vom-eisernen-kreuz-protection

with this puppy we have again a direct Agent Wolfsheim son as father out of a really good mother line. Queen Brinkeweg, Karn fegelhof!!so close the same breeding like the dogs shown on the top.

all dogs in this pedigree are proven producer and have show the work ability you need for the job.
hopeful the girl will turn out like her parents and grandparents.


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## Dave Martin (Aug 11, 2010)

Congrats again Tobi. All the best with her


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Big congrats Toby! Looks like you've got a nice pup and in great hands for your further training.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Thanks guys, just saw the last posts..Gina had her vet check. Trouble keeping her steady for examination. She looks skinny but vet she's OK at 
10.15kg at 10 weeks.


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