# Tail wagging - insight?



## Ataro Muse (Dec 20, 2012)

I know tail wagging doesn't always mean that the dog is happy etc. but one thing I'm curious about and not really sure what to think of is tail wagging (or the lack of it) during tug games. 

*The context:*
Last week I started training in Mondio with my dog for the first time, and during the second session (her third ever bitework session) the helper made a comment about how she wasn't wagging her tail and thus was getting serious/stressed, so he stopped the game and let her win...

The thing is, when I play tug with her she doesn't wag her tail either - it's always up and still. She will wag outside of the game, for example if I show her the wedge and sometimes afterwards when she's running away with it (although not if she's running away with it after winning it off the helper), but that's it. 

Not sure what to make of it, but I doubt she feels pressure playing tug with me in an informal context? Should I be concerned about this lack of tail wagging?

I should add she really loves the game, tugging is pretty much her favourite thing to do.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Ataro,

I wouldn't read that much into it. My Dobermann Arya (full tail) sometimes wags her tail and sometimes her tail stops wagging when she is really into the fight or concentrating. Sometimes her tail seems to have a mind of it's owns and no connection to anything else going around her


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## Ataro Muse (Dec 20, 2012)

Thanks for the tip! I never actually thought much about it until the helper pointed it out to me last week, reading it as a sign of stress. I was just wondering if I might have missed something. 

I will bring it up with him on though on Thursday, that she doesn't wag in general, in case such an interpretation would interfere with the normal training approach.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

What else is happening at the same time? Does the grip change, does she blink or shut her eyes or try to thrash?


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## Ataro Muse (Dec 20, 2012)

She thrashes quite a bit in general... but nope, no change in grip and no blinking/shutting of her eyes was to be seen (except when he put his hands over her eyes etc). When the helper pointed this out, he was hugging the leg pad close so that not much thrashing was possible but she didn't change posture or anything, just stood there in hanging onto it with a full grip without wagging her tail. They stayed there like that for about 30 seconds, she did thrash once briefly when he let the pad go a bit to lean forward and poke her tail.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Arya doesn't like me to grab her tail, but I just chalked it up to a general tail sensitivity and nothing more.


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## Ataro Muse (Dec 20, 2012)

I suppose the tail reaction could've been him leaning over her as well. Nothing happens if I touch her tail or someone else does it in an everyday context, since she's used to it in the show ring etc. Still though, doesn't explain his concern over the lack of wagging. You're probably right with it having to do with concentration, since she doesn't do it during obedience exercises either (but does wag before and after).


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

way more than tail wagging, so don't get tunnel vision 
canine body language and communication (for lack of a better word) is ALWAYS presented in clusters

as you know, dogs don't use verbal language 

so dogs can communicate much better with each other than they can communicate with us. focus only on one or two, and you probably are not reading your dog correctly

lots of refs are around that will help you as you also continue learn them first hand by more experiences with your dog ... 

and imo MANY people who have been around dogs "all their life" still do NOT read canine body language correctly. we are not born with that ability ... we have to learn it 

that of course only applies if you care what the dog is telling you; not all owners and handlers care if it goes both ways //lol//


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## Ataro Muse (Dec 20, 2012)

Um... Rick, maybe you missed the point of my thread. I'm wondering why the HELPER cares so much about the tail wagging, I myself am not focused on it. I can read when my dog is stressed (this is not my first dog, only the first dog that I'm training in a protection sport). All I was asking was if others thought tail wagging was an important component in bitework training.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

not sure...unless there is somethin else going on besides the lack of tail wagging....


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## Ataro Muse (Dec 20, 2012)

Well, the helper specifically pointed to her tail and said to me that because it wasn't wagging, she must be stressed and not enjoying the game... that was his reasoning for letting her have the leg pad so easily all of a sudden. 

Supposedly there are some who say training should end when the tail stops wagging, or at least Matt Vandart said he heard that somewhere. Anyone else familiar with that perspective?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

why did he poke her tail?


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## Ataro Muse (Dec 20, 2012)

Maybe to try to get it to wag? Not really sure. He was pointing at it, then he leaned forward and poked it.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Ataro Muse said:


> Maybe to try to get it to wag? Not really sure. He was pointing at it, then he leaned forward and poked it.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Honestly I will have to watch a bunch of videos now, I never gave a thought to tail wagging specifically personally. Tail carraige, body language sure..tail wagging not that I can remember...

So the point is to work the dog stress free then?


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## Ataro Muse (Dec 20, 2012)

I'm assuming he wants her to start off with very little stress, since she's new? It was her third bitework session (in her life time), so I'm guessing we're still at the point where it should still all be positive and prey-based. 

There aren't really any other dogs to compare her with at the club, since apart from one 4.5 year old male that also started training recently (4 months ago), the rest have been at it since they were a few weeks old. The other three dogs range between 1.5 - 3 years old... they're all worked in defense except the 4.5 year old male which still gets to do prey some of the time.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Reading between the lines here it sounds like he's not articulating his concern well enough, which is that he may have put too much pressure on the dog and wants to see her freer in the work (different drive state). It wasn't ever stated what position the carriage was in at the time but I'm guessing if it made a point to comment on it the carriage was probably in a position that supports that.

The lack of wagging during a game of tug wouldn't be my measure or a viable comparison for his assessment. I doubt any of us knows, we didn't see it happen, nor do we really know what was actually taking place. I am sure there was an aspect of what the dog was doing on the bite (lessened pressure for example or increased which likely only he'd feel) or any other physical body language that helped him form that conclusion - unless he's rather inexperienced.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

The problem Ataro has forgotten to mention is she is having to work through a translator as the dude doesn't speak any of the languages that she speaks.
I personally think Ashra is a very 'internal' dog from what I have seen of her she is quite 'serious' too. I have been told off many people that once the tail stops wagging you have gone too far and you should have stopped a bit further back, this has come mainly from gundog trainers. Taking the whole picture into account (as I have seen this) she is very forward and not showing any other signs of stress, such as moving away, ears tucked, loosing the plot etc. Her tail is errect and not going fast as all my dobes have always been prone to doing, but neither is she showing much playfullness or prey drive particularly. Not that she doesn't have a good prey drive either. She's a bit of an odd dog as far as dobermans go (in a good way) not expressing the hectic 'high strung' helicopter routine you often see with non working line dobes playing tug and she is particularly confident dog with pretty much nothing at all fazes her.


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## Lisa Radcliffe (Jun 9, 2011)

Ataro Muse said:


> Um... Rick, maybe you missed the point of my thread. I'm wondering why the HELPER cares so much about the tail wagging, I myself am not focused on it. I can read when my dog is stressed (this is not my first dog, only the first dog that I'm training in a protection sport). All I was asking was if others thought tail wagging was an important component in bitework training.


 The Dobermann's I know that are serious in their bite work do not "wag their tail" it is held high and maybe just the tip will move back and forth. Not a sign of "stressed" it is good you can read your own dog so maybe you can give that helper some insight


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Ataro ... i don't think i missed your point ... i just read what you wrote.

as most everyone has pointed out, tail wagging by itself has little to do with behavior unless you read the whole dog, and with no vid and little more to go on, it read like "tail tunnel vision" ... in words 
...i wasn't trying to talk down to you

1. when it is wagging, does your dog wag clockwise or counterclockwise when you are looking at it head on ?
(serious Q, btw, not being sarcastic ... many can't answer this Q when looking at their dog wagging)
2. can you tell when your dog is tensed ? meaning can you tell by looking that if you raised its head from under the muzzle the whole body moves in one piece and not just the head ?
.... i know, getting off topic 

slow day


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## Ataro Muse (Dec 20, 2012)

Ah yep... thanks for filling in the details, Matt. The tail is just straight up. 

I suppose part of this is a translation problem, but I thought what the helper said (which was subsequently translated to me) was quite clear from his body language pointing at her tail, making a sign to indicate it is straight up, then imitating a wagging tail with his hand before poking it (now we've moved onto human body language ). 

To be honest, I didn't say anything about the tail wagging then and there because I never paid much attention to it as an isolated indication of my dog's emotional state and as a beginner I tend to stfu at first. But then when I played and trained with my dog later on, I noticed she doesn't wag in the moment of tugging or in the middle of an exercise, so that doesn't fit the whole stressed out indication the helper was suggesting it to be. 

Good to know that Dobermanns can be serious, I can't say I've met many serious ones. Actually I'll withhold my opinion about the majority I've met... :-#


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

if the decoy is good, trust in him.

tail up is good stuff..

just trying to keep it fun, in prey and less serious..makes sense for beginner dog.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

I concur........


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## Ted Summers (May 14, 2012)

I agree, if the decoy is good trust what he says. Don't be afraid to ask other owners/handlers/decoys watching what THEY are seeing. There was likely other clues to the decoy too. I can always tell when my mali ain't playin' when he'll out on command (no biggie) but then que back up on the decoy rather than protect the sleeve. Some decoys just rub him the wrong way. Its usually 'good' decoys that apply A LOT or pressure and it pisses him off a bit. He gets all butt hurt about the 'dude getting all serious and messing up my game' :roll:. 

He was worked by a 'famous' decoy/trainer that laughed when he applied pressure via a little to forceful stick hits and my guy went after the stick hand AFTER 6-8 bites on the sleeve. After he commented that he was 'dangrous' to wit, I replied..... don't hit him so hard and he won't bite you #-o :lol:.

Your girl could see the pressure as confrontation. As a decoy I always take the WHOLE picture into account as well as the sports. IPO the helper is to be consistant in pressure, PSA the decoys are to apply a ton of pressure (depending on the level) and still work with the dog, ring stuff the decoy is to try and work against the dog to steal points. If your decoy felt that she was getting stressed, he was probably correct. It's okay to stress the dog but..... not likely on the 3rd session. As a handler, I always like the dogs to display aggression and control. If they do that they get what they want. If a decoy (even after being warned) gets a little to rough and gets nipped....... :-({|= not my problem. I always ask handlers of new dogs (in training, not trials) what kind and type of pressure the dog has seen, had, how the reacted etc etc. Getting bit sucks and running a dog off the field sucks too, no one wins there.


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## Ataro Muse (Dec 20, 2012)

This happened on our weekday training session, which only has the beginner handlers and the other beginner dog (4.5 yo male)... so no other insights other than what was translated to me. All the translator said was my dog didn't see it as a happy game anymore and was taking it too seriously. Bear in mind this translator isn't an official translator or anything, just a guy who happens to speak English at a low-intermediate level. 
I'm starting to think the helper may have gotten very careful as a precaution after finding out she was new, because the first time she was out there was more pressure, and he was apparently under the impression that she had been trained for a few months in IPO bitework. He asked me about her IPO bitework training in Germany during the break (I had been attending for a few months just to get to know people and watch, but didn't bring my dog with me because she had giardia), before we went out the second time and I told him she hadn't had any, only one bitework session at a seminar and then we went out and he started taking notice of her tail. 
I can't say if the helper is good, since I don't know him that well and haven't seen much of things having only been to the club twice. What I've seen looks good but again this is a new club (I think it started only 2 years ago or something), it's not like there are loads of successful dogs to point to. 
On the topic of getting bitten though, he seems to be very happy about it if it ever does happen and carries his scars like badges.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Ataro Muse said:


> On the topic of getting bitten though, he seems to be very happy about it if it ever does happen and carries his scars like badges.


not happy about it, trust me...but the scars are badges


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## Ataro Muse (Dec 20, 2012)

Joby Becker said:


> not happy about it, trust me...but the scars are badges


 He was excitedly pointing to one dog that had bit him and then to a scar, doing the thumbs up sign and exclaiming "EXCELLENT! SUPER DOG!". He may just be a bit crazy then.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

There have been so many posts as to what the "wagging" could be, that I am mystified.

BTW "Tail wagging" - friendly should never be confused with "tail whipping" - aggressive.


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## Ataro Muse (Dec 20, 2012)

Unfortunately training has been cancelled this week, so we shall all have to stay tuned for further insight next week. Now this is really going to be driving me nuts. .


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## Glen Jesse Golden (May 23, 2011)

Speaking from a behaviorist and decoy's point of view, a wagging tail, read alone from all other bodily cues, suggests a willingness to interact. So, you're right when you say it doesn't mean happy necessarily. The dog is just willing to interact. Once tugging or engaging, they are already interacting and thus wagging is no longer a priority in terms of energy expenditure. 

Now, reading the entire dog with tail carriage included will reveal stress or too much control. I don't worry when the tail stops wagging if the tail is above the horizon. Bottom line, I want a wagging tail just prior to engaging, but I concentrate on carriage when reading the whole dog.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

This ^^^ I like


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Matt Vandart said:


> This ^^^ I like


I agree, now if we can get Glenn to post more often then once every two years ?


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## Glen Jesse Golden (May 23, 2011)

Thomas Barriano said:


> I agree, now if we can get Glenn to post more often then once every two years ?


Wouldn't that strip away all the mystery?  

To be truthful, it was the email newsletter (and an interesting question) that brought me back here. I have a soft money position, so in between grants, I'll have to make an effort to come back. I do like the conversation and knowledge here.


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