# Dog Aggressive dogs - nature or nurture?



## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

DA dogs have been mentioned in a couple of threads recently, and its got me to thinking. How much is it genetics - as in bully breeds, specifically bred to be DA, or the opposite - hounds or retrievers, bred to work alongside other dogs? How much influence does how the dog is raised and handled have? What about interactions with other dogs, either positive or negative? 

I know there are exceptions. Back in my dog park days, I met lots of happy, dog-social pit bulls. One of the worst incidents requiring vet services was instigated by a labrador retriever. Jack russels were always starting stuff. 

For sport dogs, specifically herders, is it a consideration, or just not something that comes up, as they are not expected to work with or interact with other dogs, but just be under control in their presence?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

There is no easy answer, or, one answer fits all Leslie. Pits are not bred to be "dog" aggressive, they are normally "animal" aggressive and people friendly.
If you put two males side by side of the same pecking order, they may be aggressive towards one another but it isn't dog aggression, it is how dogs are wired to climb the social ladder. 
Dogs that show aggression towards lesser dog swould be what I would more likely term "dog aggressive as there is nothing to be gained by beating up lesser dogs. They are in the dog world what bullies are in our world. They do it because they can.


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## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

How do you define lesser dogs? Do you expect me to believe that when my dog (Pit/GSD X) sees a hound dog walk by and freaking explodes its because he instincually knew that that dog is a threat to his place in the pecking order? And what pecking order? The one he sees in my house? The PetSmart pecking order?

I believe that DA is 50/50 genes and experience. There are some dogs that are just that way. With enough training (and patience) you can remove the DA from most dogs. They may not be dog park candidates but they can nose another dog with out getting you kicked out of a pet store. On the other side of the coin you can undersocialize (or poorly socialize) even a beagle enough to make it DA.

I have a feeling that dog aggression and drive come hand in hand. Not that all high drive dogs have DA but it increases the chances. Maybe begales are less likely to be dog aggressive because they just don't care.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

> Pits are not bred to be "dog" aggressive, they are normally "animal" aggressive and people friendly.


Helps if you read Ben....your dog is part pit. That has nothing to do with status. That is genetics.



Ben Colbert said:


> How do you define lesser dogs? Do you expect me to believe that when my dog (Pit/GSD X) sees a hound dog walk by and freaking explodes its because he instincually knew that that dog is a threat to his place in the pecking order? And what pecking order? The one he sees in my house? The PetSmart pecking order?





Ben Colbert said:


> I believe that DA is 50/50 genes and experience. There are some dogs that are just that way.
> 
> 
> > If that is what you believe, it's cool with me. There are some dogs just about every way and every varying degree in between.
> ...


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Dogs that show aggression towards lesser dog swould be what I would more likely term "dog aggressive as there is nothing to be gained by beating up lesser dogs. They are in the dog world what bullies are in our world. They do it because they can.


Hey Don, do you see that as universal? Some dogs just seem to either like to fight (which could be analogous to the bullies of the human world, others just seem to dislike/hate other dogs in an almost predatory/killer fashion. I'm going from a limited number of personal experiences with my own dogs and the time hanging out around Bulldogs and such. It just seems like a bit different between a dog that just likes to fight to bully another dog and one that is just out to take a dog out once it engages (either because it doesn't like dogs, period, or because the other dog sets it off). I've been told that some of the Terriers (not to mention some examples of the more dog-aggressive Bull & Terrier types and Presa, individual-dependent) can be pretty bad about that. I kind of got the impression the end result was genetic combined with how much of it the handler would let them get away with.

Of course, if I'm totally off, let me know.

-Cheers


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## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

I'm not really sure what you are getting at. I think it is simplistic to say in bully breeds then its just genetic and for other breeds its rank. I think that's what you're saying. 

What about the DA Dobie that blows up at the site of another dog. Is he vying for rank? What rank? Do you mean that he immediately upon seeing a dog he sizes it up, decides whether or not the other dog is a threat to his status and then decides whether to lung or let it be. And if he lunges then its either because he thinks the dog is equal status or because he thinks the dog is lower and he's a bully?

And you believe that a pit's drive to mess up that hound dog is a different drive/motivation than the Dobie's desire to mess up the Collie walking by?

If I have this wrong I apologize. Please correct me.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

So to add to my questions - what do you consider dog aggressive? What is just dog reactive? 

I consider my Mal reactive. He barks, lunges, scrambles and carries on if he sees another dog if I let him. (I don't allow it - he can also walk through a busy dog trial and remain focussed on me and not act like an idiot) I know there are (pet) people who would call him dog aggressive based on that behaviour, but I don't think he is. He will posture with another dog, and can be a bit of a bully, but mostly he wants to play, not provoke fights. He clearly differentiates strong dogs and weaker dogs. I have seen him run full force towards another dog aiming to body slam him and then sidestep at the last moment.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Ben Colbert said:


> I have a feeling that dog aggression and drive come hand in hand. Not that all high drive dogs have DA but it increases the chances. Maybe begales are less likely to be dog aggressive because they just don't care.



Do you think the drive and aggression is more breed specific? I'm thinking of high drive border collies or field line retrievers, which are not known for being DA?


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## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

Hmmm...thats a good point. Though I've seen some pretty reactive Border Collies. I think they tend to be more like what you described in your Mal. They want to see something so bad, and the lead frustrates them so much it looks aggressive.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Or does breeding strong, dominant dogs for sport also bring some DA with it?


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> There is no easy answer, or, one answer fits all Leslie. Pits are not bred to be "dog" aggressive, they are normally "animal" aggressive and people friendly.
> If you put two males side by side of the same pecking order, they may be aggressive towards one another but it isn't dog aggression, it is how dogs are wired to climb the social ladder.
> Dogs that show aggression towards lesser dog swould be what I would more likely term "dog aggressive as there is nothing to be gained by beating up lesser dogs. They are in the dog world what bullies are in our world. They do it because they can.


Good answer, Don. Couldn't agree more.


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## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

leslie cassian said:


> Or does breeding strong, dominant dogs for sport also bring some DA with it?


 
I'm sure I'm in the minority but I don't like using "dominance" in this context. I don't see dogs as having a specific rank as it comes to people or even dogs. A dog that has handler aggression is often seen as fighting said handler for rank. I see a physically hard dog, that is confident and has a high motivation for a specific resouce. All dogs respond to stimuli in different ways. Some dogs may cower when corrected, some may redirect to the handler. All this means to me is that the dog requires a stonger correction. A strong correction doesn't establish rank, it makes an action no longer profitable.

I know this opinion is of the minority. If you want to call me stupid, inexperienced, naive etc then I am welcome to a PM. If ths post invites anything other than calm and rationale discussion then I will just delete it.


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## James Lechernich (Oct 20, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> There is no easy answer, or, one answer fits all Leslie. Pits are not bred to be "dog" aggressive, they are normally "animal" aggressive and people friendly.


Pretty much. Aggression isn't something that was ever intentionally bred into these dogs. Rather it was always there from the beginning and it continues to be a byproduct of the environments these dogs were(are) used. And while no one wants a fight crazy cur or true maneater(bites for no reason), every family is different. Some lines are stone cold towards other animals outside the box, and likewise other lines are hot towards every living thing that walks the earth. You simply learn about the traits unique to each family and work with the ones that suit your needs and fancy.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I won't call you stupid - I also think the word "dominance" is very often wrongly used. Dominance occurs in the dog's own pack and not outside it.

A lot of dominant dogs are so-called produced by non-dominant handlers! They are the dogs that turn on their handlers but not on others.

I've heard of so many handlers recently that have been "attacked" by their own dogs (-12 months) that it sickens me.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I won't call you stupid - I also think the word "dominance" is very often wrongly used. Dominance occurs in the dog's own pack and not outside it.


I don't agree with this Gillian. If I take any of my males to a dog beach or a park, they stand and scan the area. You can watch their head movement. When the head freezes, you con look that direction and you will see a bull breed, a rotties, or some other tough dog. My dog immediately goes to it and stand directly in front of the other animal and silently stares at it. Bull dogs usually answer the challenge. Rotties and other breeds submit. If they submit, my dogs are cool and will be fine through the rest of their stay as they are king of the whatever. Bulldogs that answer the challenge are met with the same....then my dog goes and is good for the rest of the visit. They don't have to be aggressive and won't if not warrented. If warrented, they will take care of business. Is that not dominance outside his own pack? Or are you referring to dominance like with an owner or family?


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I don't agree with this Gillian. If I take any of my males to a dog beach or a park, they stand and scan the area. You can watch their head movement. When the head freezes, you con look that direction and you will see a bull breed, a rotties, or some other tough dog. My dog immediately goes to it and stand directly in front of the other animal and silently stares at it. Bull dogs usually answer the challenge. Rotties and other breeds submit. If they submit, my dogs are cool and will be fine through the rest of their stay as they are king of the whatever. Bulldogs that answer the challenge are met with the same....then my dog goes and is good for the rest of the visit. They don't have to be aggressive and won't if not warrented. If warrented, they will take care of business. Is that not dominance outside his own pack? Or are you referring to dominance like with an owner or family?


I agree with Don...my youngest male gsd does something very similar, except the only dogs to respond to "the challenge" was a pair of male ACD's. He quietly scans and as soon as a dog meets his eyes (this has happened from across an arena, 100' or so feet away) with him, he thinks it’s on...except for my mother's 12yo bc. This dog (the bc) will posture, stare, creep up while bearing his teeth and growling, and my gsd thinks its the greatest game ever.


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

that 12yo bc also does that to my 12yo apbt and will sit there and chew on his (the pits) ear while bearing his teeth and growling...apparently my pit thinks its a great ear massage because it puts him to sleep.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

I think there are other factors that haven't been metioned.

DA in dogs own yard. (Fence fighting, etc.)
DA on dogs normal walk around the block. From what I understand, some dogs will own the whole block, in their minds of course.
DA on neutral unfamilular ground.
DA at a dog park, (This may well be were a otherwise neutral dog goes of the deep end with, I must be the top dog!)


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## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

To me it sounds like your dog is simply dog aggressive. He's probably a largish dog and when he postures as you describe he sends a message that says he means to fight. This is a socially awkward dog that doesn't understand how to interact to other dogs. Most dogs are going to see his posturing and are going to give off signals that say that they don't want to fight. Other socially awkward dogs (i.e. bully breed) may see his posturing and posture back or may even not understand the posturing.

Dominance serves one purpose. It allows choice access to limited resources. What is the genetic purpose of a dog attempting to establish rank with a strange dog? Why would a dog try to be dominant with an animal it will never see again?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Ben Colbert said:


> To me it sounds like your dog is simply dog aggressive. He's probably a largish dog and when he postures as you describe he sends a message that says he means to fight. This is a socially awkward dog that doesn't understand how to interact to other dogs. Most dogs are going to see his posturing and are going to give off signals that say that they don't want to fight. Other socially awkward dogs (i.e. bully breed) may see his posturing and posture back or may even not understand the posturing.
> 
> Dominance serves one purpose. It allows choice access to limited resources. What is the genetic purpose of a dog attempting to establish rank with a strange dog? Why would a dog try to be dominant with an animal it will never see again?


You can't be serious Ben....or can you? You been around a lot of dogs?


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

My dog seems pretty easy going, maybe a little dominant, off leash, but on leash acts like he wants to murder every dog. I guess he has a little dog aggression in his genes


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## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

Don Turnipseed said:


> You can't be serious Ben....or can you? You been around a lot of dogs?



Why is your guess at what a dog is thinking better than my guess at what a dog is thinking? Neither of us knows for sure. 

In my mind there are two main possibilities:

A. Dog 1 is gentically dominant and will challenge dogs that appears to to be a threat to its rank within the current situation. When another dog challenges Dog 1 instead of acting submissive then tries to fight that dog.

B. Dog 1 postures to other dogs because he is under socialized and doesn't know how to play. Other under socialized dogs posture back and they try to fight.

For A to be correct then we have to assume that all those strong, hard sport dogs I've seen that weren't DA instinctively knew they were a lower rank. Also all well socialized dogs at a dog park simply believe they are of equal rank to all other dogs at a dog park and lastly we have to believe that we have accidentally been breeding for dominance, a characteristic that should have nothing to do with sport work all these years.

Occams razor says when there are multiple possible answers the simplest one is usually correct.

I also think that the idea of dominance as an excuse for dog aggression has gained traction even though there is no possible way to empirically test it is because it feels good. When my GSD tries to eat my neighbors lab I can say "Sorry, its because my dog is dominant" instead of "Sorry, my dog is undersocialized and doesn't know how to deal with other dogs".


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Not even I can argue with logic Ben. Well could but it is pointless.


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## kristin tresidder (Oct 23, 2008)

leslie cassian said:


> Or does breeding strong, dominant dogs for sport also bring some DA with it?


IME, dog aggression, or the desire to fight another dog has nothing to do w/the aggression towards, or the desire to fight, a human.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

David Ruby said:


> Hey Don, do you see that as universal? Some dogs just seem to either like to fight (which could be analogous to the bullies of the human world, others just seem to dislike/hate other dogs in an almost predatory/killer fashion. I'm going from a limited number of personal experiences with my own dogs and the time hanging out around Bulldogs and such. It just seems like a bit different between a dog that just likes to fight to bully another dog and one that is just out to take a dog out once it engages (either because it doesn't like dogs, period, or because the other dog sets it off). I've been told that some of the Terriers (not to mention some examples of the more dog-aggressive Bull & Terrier types and Presa, individual-dependent) can be pretty bad about that. I kind of got the impression the end result was genetic combined with how much of it the handler would let them get away with.
> 
> Of course, if I'm totally off, let me know.
> 
> -Cheers


Nothing is universal David. Too many breeds bred for different traits. Terriers for instance.


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## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

Dog aggression - some consider any aggression towards another dog, regardless of "reason", to be dog aggression.

Dominance is widely misunderstood, people don't know how to recognize it in most cases.

A dominant dog can be dog aggressive. A fearful dog can be dog aggressive. A dominant dog may also not be dog aggressive but show aggression towards certain dogs in certain situations.

Dogs that don't know how to deal with other dogs and thus show aggression are likely aggressive due to fear. Somewhere along the line the dog learned that showing signs of aggression - lunging, barking, snarling etc - is a way to keep other dogs away. It is a threat display, and a learned behavior. The dog could have been attacked by another dog early in life, or simply learned that when its on a leash on a walk if it lunges and barks etc then the other dog goes away.

A dog that hasn't been around other dogs much may tend to be uncertain but a dog that has not learned to fear other dogs should not be aggressive from the get go. A dog aggressive dog will be, though. Just because a dog has not learned the finer points of canine communication through repetitive interaction with other dogs does not mean it will or should be dog aggressive. It is an excuse people like to use.

A dominant dog that is not dog aggressive will try to dominate other dogs but they are not aggressive about it unless met with resistance or a challenge from the other dog. These dogs are not outright aggressive, barking mad beasts at the sight of another dog no matter how the other dog carries itself. Interaction between two dominant dogs often starts out as a silent affair, they don't need to put on a fancy display to try and scare the other dog, it is a waste of energy. If one or the other does not submit then there will be a fight.

Too many dogs are labeled "dominant" because it suits the owner's ego. Nobody likes to admit that their dog is afraid of other dogs and has learned to put on a threat display in order to keep other dogs away. People do like to say that their dog is a big bad ass that wants to dominant the earth and piss on the clouds.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Nothing is universal David. Too many breeds bred for different traits. Terriers for instance.



Good point Don!
I don't look at the "average" terrier as dominant OR necessarily DA. Just intollerant of strange dogs in it's fight or flight zone. I've never had a working terrier that went looking for a fight. They, more often then not, happily hunted with dogs they never saw before but always had a "don't get in my face" attitude. That's not dominance or DA. Just leave me the F alone..or else!
The snarling, barking, pulling dog that wants to kill the dog across the street is often times insecure or just not under good leadership. Nothing to do with dominance.


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## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Not even I can argue with logic Ben. Well could but it is pointless.


I take that as a compliment.


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## Sanda Stankovic (Jan 10, 2009)

> but always had a "don't get in my face" attitude.


Yes, I agree with this. I have seen this in few terrier breeds. And when they decide to teach another dog a lesson, they act so fast, no growling, or warning... They just go. Its also very specific intra-species aggression. So, although they might want to chase/hunt a cat, or another animal, their actions towards other dogs awaken this specific behaviour, ie. aggression. This also has nothing to do with their attitude towards people, just other dogs. So, very species-specific. They seem to distinguish, humans and their attitude towards them (often quite laid back), attitude towards other dogs, and then attitude towards prey. I wonder whether its a mixture of natural evolution (ie. species-specific) with some prey drive that results in this behaviour. 



> The snarling, barking, pulling dog that wants to kill the dog across the street is often times insecure or just not under good leadership. Nothing to do with dominance.


I agree again. I have a DA girl that is totally fine with neutral, peaceful dogs. She likes them, they sniff her, she sniffs them, its all good. Its only certain behaviours that trigger her DA behaviour. Again, nothing to do with her dominance at all.


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

what would this be?
http://www.boreme.com/boreme/funny-2005/dog-bites-dog-p1.php?emf=2


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

jack van strien said:


> what would this be?
> http://www.boreme.com/boreme/funny-2005/dog-bites-dog-p1.php?emf=2


 
LOL....I would say fishing line tied to dumb dogs foot. :-D


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Ben Colbert said:


> To me it sounds like your dog is simply dog aggressive. He's probably a largish dog and when he postures as you describe he sends a message that says he means to fight. This is a socially awkward dog that doesn't understand how to interact to other dogs. Most dogs are going to see his posturing and are going to give off signals that say that they don't want to fight. Other socially awkward dogs (i.e. bully breed) may see his posturing and posture back or may even not understand the posturing.
> 
> Dominance serves one purpose. It allows choice access to limited resources. What is the genetic purpose of a dog attempting to establish rank with a strange dog? Why would a dog try to be dominant with an animal it will never see again?


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Tried to edit my post but I was timed out.

_Why would a dog try to be dominant with an animal it will never see again?
_

I took my dogs to the dog park today (yeah, I know) and watched them interact with the other dogs. My Mal is a middle rank dog, not an alpha dog, but a little shit sometimes and well aware he has a pack behind him. We met a pair of young male GSDs on the trail and he pegged them as weaker than him from the get go. 

I think this is just what dogs do if they are allowed to interact freely. They are constantly checking and jockeying for rank if it hasn't been clearly established. It may be very subtle, just eyeballing each other until one looks away, or more overt - head over shoulders or humping, but it happens. Some dogs seem to want to play these games more than others.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I am glad you finished that post Leslie. I thought may you just put that quote up to entice me to answer it. Love the part about why would a dog be dominate over a dog he will never see again???? I have to wonder if some of these posters actually realize that people from all over the world are judging their competence by what they post.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I am glad you finished that post Leslie. I thought may you just put that quote up to entice me to answer it. Love the part about why would a dog be dominate over a dog he will never see again???? I have to wonder if some of these posters actually realize that people from all over the world are judging their competence by what they post.


Are you serious? If they are counting on this stuff I need to go back and redo some of my ignorant posts.:-D


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Ben Colbert said:


> Why is your guess at what a dog is thinking better than my guess at what a dog is thinking? Neither of us knows for sure.
> 
> In my mind there are two main possibilities:
> 
> ...


 good post.i like the last paragraph particularly.


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## Tanith Wheeler (Jun 5, 2009)

I run workshops for 'pet' people with aggressive dogs and I've lost count of the number of people who tell me that their dog is dominant aggressive - the dog in question is generally a nervebag who is undersocialised.

I have only ever seen a handful of cases of what I would consider dominant aggression. Usually directed at the handler or other dogs in the pack.

My opinion has always been that truly dominant dogs rarely need to be aggressive, if they are secure in their 'position' they will not need to do so. If a 'dominant' dog is displaying / using unwarranted levels of aggression there is a fear / uncertainty / insecurity in play.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Tanith Wheeler said:


> I run workshops for 'pet' people with aggressive dogs and I've lost count of the number of people who tell me that their dog is dominant aggressive - the dog in question is generally a nervebag who is undersocialised.
> 
> I have only ever seen a handful of cases of what I would consider dominant aggression. Usually directed at the handler or other dogs in the pack.
> 
> My opinion has always been that truly dominant dogs rarely need to be aggressive, if they are secure in their 'position' they will not need to do so. If a 'dominant' dog is displaying / using unwarranted levels of aggression there is a fear / uncertainty / insecurity in play.


Truly dominate dogs are not outwardly aggressive. That is then point I was makeingm when Ben said my 68 to 80 lb males were probably big, blah, blah. They look for the top dog right off the bat and go directly to that dog and SILENT and emotionless, stand right in front of them. They don't growl or posture walk stiff legged or any such nonsense. They just stand there. When the dog submits, they hare satisfied and go about their business with absolutely no outward aggression. If it is a bull dog and they take them up on the challenge, there is still no posturing....the bull dog jumps and it is on. So, I keep my dogs in my yard unless we are hunting. I don't keep any of the males together here either.....but they are hard on game.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Here is something to think about also. Most kinow my dogs are raised in family groups or packs, one dominate male per. These males never harrass lesser dogs but I had two of the older males out hunting and had Odin with me at 1 year old. Something happened I had never seen. I was keeping the two older ones apart and the one closes to Odin jumped on him and start wailing on him. Never had I seen this. I moved Odin over by the other dog and he started wailing on him. I really had no idea what had gotten into these two older dogs. About a year later, It all came together and I realized what was going on. At two Odin was the toughest and the biggest dog in the yard at a 100 lb muscle. If they were actually in the wild, the older dogs would have driven him out of either pack while he was young enough to they could do it. Now, he is the biggest dog in the yards. Took a year to realize what I saw that day and it stuck with me because it was totally unlike these two older dogs.


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## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I have to wonder if some of these posters actually realize that people from all over the world are judging their competence by what they post.


Are you serious? I have to wonder if there are actually people who care that other posters on a forum are "judging their competence".


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Here is something to think about also. Most kinow my dogs are raised in family groups or packs, one dominate male per. These males never harrass lesser dogs but I had two of the older males out hunting and had Odin with me at 1 year old. Something happened I had never seen. I was keeping the two older ones apart and the one closes to Odin jumped on him and start wailing on him. Never had I seen this. I moved Odin over by the other dog and he started wailing on him. I really had no idea what had gotten into these two older dogs. About a year later, It all came together and I realized what was going on. At two Odin was the toughest and the biggest dog in the yard at a 100 lb muscle. If they were actually in the wild, the older dogs would have driven him out of either pack while he was young enough to they could do it. Now, he is the biggest dog in the yards. Took a year to realize what I saw that day and it stuck with me because it was totally unlike these two older dogs.


thats a nice story don and sounds right dogs can tell these things im sure!

the dogs that annoy me are the dogs that will kill anything smaller or weaker then them but run scared at the sight of a bigger dog or a challenge its my own opinion that these dogs have weak character surely at 2 or 3 they know the french poodle is not going to challenge there pack order.
And i think some of them just enjoy killing things its like a wild animal practicing to hunt .myself like don have had some experience on wild game here in aus and these curs will get you hurt the old saying when the going gets tough the tough get going couldnt be more true


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## Sanda Stankovic (Jan 10, 2009)

Maybe it would help if people distinguished types of DA aggression that exist and then talk about different ones independently. I feel like they are all being pushed into 1 when there are multiple, very different types of DA.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Oustside of fear and dominance what kind of aggressions can be classified?


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2010)

The following can be applied to dog-dog aggression. There are more that can be applied to dog-human aggression.

"Dominance" Aggression (largely misunderstood as "handler error")

Fear Aggression 

Territorial/Protective Aggression

Predatory Aggression

Redirected Aggression

Food-Related/ Possessive Aggression (individual and combined)

Play Aggression (very very common as play and aggression are so closely linked, think "thin line between love and hate")

Maternal Aggression

Health related Aggression (very broad)

Pain Related Aggression 

Geriatric Aggression


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Vin Chiu said:


> The following can be applied to dog-dog aggression. There are more that can be applied to dog-human aggression.
> 
> "Dominance" Aggression (largely misunderstood as "handler error")
> 
> ...


Ok, aggression can be broke down for ever specific incidence but I thought the thread was specifically about "dog aggression".


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## Sanda Stankovic (Jan 10, 2009)

I meant, a pack driven aggression (dominance aggression) such as what you described with your dogs is very different to territoriality aggression (protecting your space), to fear aggression (insecurity that you must defend yourself from everything and anything) which is very different to prey drive turning into aggression (this concept is very new to me), etc. etc. So even if we separate dog behaviour within a pack with dog behaviour towards strange dogs on neutral terrain (that are not allowed to play, just be next to each other), there are still multiple reasons for the same behaviour.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Ok Sanda, I have described the dominance part , say, with dogs like mine. Moving to territorial, It has never happened so I can't say for sure beyond a shadow of a doubt, but I would say a male interloper is done.A good example was a fellow had two of my males purchased at different times so one was older. He sent one to be trained as a retiever for 7 mo. I told him this was a high risk move. The younger one was about 1 year old when he sent the other dog. He went and got the dog after 7 mo. The one that was sent away was a real dominate dog. The young one saw him as an interloper the fight was on right there in the living room as they came through the door. He had to place the younger dog the next day. Hoiw would they react to a lesser dog in regards to territoriality....I can't say and I am not going to throw a dog in their space to find out. I did take a 10 generation bitch back once and since there was no problem with any males, I put her into a yard with younger bitches. She made herself 0pretty clear to all in any yard since then although there are two yards we are not going to test because those yards may have slightly younger bitches, they also are bigger than she is. 
Females are a bit differnet out of territory. With males it seems to be more about being the top dog, with the girls, if you get out of line, they don't seem to care if it male or females lesser or dominate, they just wade into them. They are bitches. Most seem more aloof in public and take the attitude of "don't f with me". I watched on on a dog beach that would take her tennis ball and place it about 2' from her as bait and move back and lay there and just wait for a dog to come along and try to pick up her ball. She would leap forward anbd grab the offending dog, give them a shake or two and let them go. Then she would go and wait for the next. To her, this was a game to amuse herself. Looked like aggression, sounded like, well, she never made a sound but I don't think it was real aggression because it was over after the second shake.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Ok, aggression can be broke down for ever specific incidence but I thought the thread was specifically about "dog aggression".


Now you're getting somewhere, considering the many contexts for aggression mentioned by Vin. But even simply put "dog aggression" doesn't have to be fear related or for establishing dominance. My two girls appearantly don't care who's "top-dog" by making the other subordinate, nor afraid the least bit, they just genuinely want to kill each other.


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