# WTF has happened to this forum?



## maggie fraser

I have just popped in and out of this board for the last couple of years or so. I see a huge change,, folks spouting all kinds of crap, a lot of it unchallenged, this is only my observation. It means nowt to me in real terms, after all I am really more of an observer. Some folks just don't evolve now do they??
Do they ?? ha ha


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## Bob Scott

Maggie you know your always welcome to jump in a throw a few punches. :grin: :wink:


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## Gillian Schuler

maggie fraser said:


> I have just popped in and out of this board for the last couple of years or so. I see a huge change,, folks spouting all kinds of crap, a lot of it unchallenged, this is only my observation. It means nowt to me in real terms, after all I am really more of an observer. Some folks just don't evolve now do they??
> Do they ?? ha ha


C'mon Maggie,

Are you suggesting we were all in agreement with one another once upon a time?


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## Bob Scott

maggie fraser said:


> I have just popped in and out of this board for the last couple of years or so. I see a huge change,, folks spouting all kinds of crap, a lot of it unchallenged, this is only my observation. It means nowt to me in real terms, after all I am really more of an observer. Some folks just don't evolve now do they??
> Do they ?? ha ha


Lack of evolution can also mean that some folks are satisfied with the results they get with the method they are using. Why change if that's the case? I've successfully used many methods over the yrs and all have their good and bad points. 
If they never fully try and understand something else then that's ok with me too. It DOES make for a better rounded training tool box though. :wink:


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## Jim Engel

Facebook has taken a lot of participation from the 
traditional forum such as WDF.

All such forums seem to have a life cycle, 
naturally become stagnant and inactive.

Remember : [email protected]

At one time, this was a big deal.

Life goes on.


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## Annamarie Somich

Facebook has replaced the threads that dealt with a lot of current events. A lot of "look what I'm doing". Cute photos. Videos. 

Personally, I think that the art of discussion, sharing training techniques is an age related thing. You don't see it on Facebook. Thirty and younger crowd isn't interested. I'm going to say this as a teacher point of view - the thirty and younger crowd does not have the problem solving ability and writing skills as its parents and older generations. Many of them are not strong in self instruction - they really depend upon hands on instruction. They really rely on their clubs and training groups. 

Also, Facebook is safe where you can pick and choose your friends and control what is said.

The forums that I frequent are generally active with 40 and older folks.


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## Skip Morgart

We have a good new discussion group (so far) on FaceBook...."SchH/IPO Training"


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## Annamarie Somich

Skip, I couldn't find it by that name. Is it public, ie do I have to have a facebook account? Who owns the account? 

Why do you prefe Facebook versus blogs, forums, etc.


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## Skip Morgart

Annamarie Somich said:


> Skip, I couldn't find it by that name. Is it public, ie do I have to have a facebook account? Who owns the account?
> 
> Why do you prefe Facebook versus blogs, forums, etc.


Yes, I believe you have to have a facebook account, then you can simply request to be added to the group. It's just a simple group I created on FaceBook, but we have some real good people in it. Not much drama and BS (yet).


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## Lee H Sternberg

maggie fraser said:


> I have just popped in and out of this board for the last couple of years or so. I see a huge change,, folks spouting all kinds of crap, a lot of it unchallenged, this is only my observation. It means nowt to me in real terms, after all I am really more of an observer. Some folks just don't evolve now do they??
> Do they ?? ha ha


Many of the old MOFO's got banned or moved on. Some were dog smart. Some were just kind of dickheads. Some were dog smart dickheads. Some were all out assholes. 

Flame wars, badmouthing, name calling, put downs ran rampant in many old threads. 

It is sure a lot easier on the mods now. 

Most new dudes aren't scared shitless to start threads any more and ask freaking nutcase questions.

But fuk I miss the "old days".


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## Joby Becker

eh shut up Maggie, you old bitty


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## Meg O'Donovan

You're funny, Joby. Are you trying to start a virtual brawl?


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## Joby Becker

Meg O'Donovan said:


> You're funny, Joby. Are you trying to start a virtual brawl?


me and mags had some good ones in the past.....


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## Hunter Allred

I do my best not to say stupid shit. Hope I'm not one of the ones spouting unchallenged crap. On this forum I've always viewed silence as validation I'm not spewing crap lol


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## Gillian Schuler

Joby Becker said:


> eh shut up Maggie, you old bitty


 
I think the correct name would be "biddy" or did you aim for a combination of bitch and biddy :lol:

Forgive me Maggy, I'm just educating the uneducated.


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## Joby Becker

Gillian Schuler said:


> I think the correct name would be "biddy" or did you aim for a combination of bitch and biddy :lol:
> 
> Forgive me Maggy, I'm just educating the uneducated.


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## Bob Scott

Gillian Schuler said:


> I think the correct name would be "biddy" or did you aim for a combination of bitch and biddy :lol:
> 
> Forgive me Maggy, I'm just educating the uneducated.





Gillian, there is an old saying 

"You can educate the ignorant but you can't fix stupid". :grin::wink:


Sorry Joby! I just couldn't resist that one. :grin::grin: :wink:


Old Biddy is a term for an irritating, annoying old lady OR a laying hen more then a yr old. 
I'll let Maggy decide that one as she's choking out Joby. :lol::lol::lol: :wink:


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## Haz Othman

When Im really bored Ill go back and read Jeff O posts from 07-2010.... Just got to the one where he gets into it with Molly Graf that guy was hilarious.


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## Dave Colborn

Hunter Allred said:


> On this forum I've always viewed silence as validation


It's a shame. Silences= Validation for you. Fact should equal validation for everyone. 

If there was a respose for every stupid statement made here, very few threads would end. I think silence = people that stop for one reason or another. Frustration with ignorance. Having a job that takes precedence. The realization that some forum memberrs dont own dogs or arent real personalities off the keyboard. You name it.

Of course your belief explains why our society evolves as it has. If people could think critically vs. silence =vaLidatiion, they could figure out almost anything in dog training.


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## Hunter Allred

Dave Colborn said:


> It's a shame. Silences= Validation for you. Fact should equal validation for everyone.
> 
> If there was a respose for every stupid statement made here, very few threads would end. I think silence = people that stop for one reason or another. Frustration with ignorance. Having a job that takes precedence. The realization that some forum memberrs dont own dogs or arent real personalities off the keyboard. You name it.
> 
> Of course your belief explains why our society evolves as it has. If people could think critically vs. silence =vaLidatiion, they could figure out almost anything in dog training.


Lol on this forum yes. But if I post a thread a stupid statement, someone will generally slap it down in a hurry lol.

It's human nature lol. It's more fun to tear something apart than reply with "I can find anything false in that". There are enough experts and "experts" around that you can't get away with saying stupid shit much. I'll try an experiment...


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## Dave Colborn

Hunter Allred said:


> Lol on this forum yes. But if I post a thread a stupid statement, someone will generally slap it down in a hurry lol.
> 
> It's human nature lol. It's more fun to tear something apart than reply with "I can find anything false in that". There are enough experts and "experts" around that you can't get away with saying stupid shit much. I'll try an experiment...


I cant find anything false in that!!!


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## Hunter Allred

Dave Colborn said:


> I cant find anything false in that!!!


ahhhh... sweet, sweet validation \\/


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## Dave Colborn

Hunter Allred said:


> ahhhh... sweet, sweet validation \\/


Haha. If the shoe fits.


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## Christopher Smith

http://thefederalist.com/2014/01/17/the-death-of-expertise/


This is what happened to this forum.


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## Dee Harrison

Christopher Smith said:


> http://thefederalist.com/2014/01/17/the-death-of-expertise/
> 
> 
> This is what happened to this forum.


Good article ... explains why we (society) have grown to celebrate mediocrity!!!


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## Joby Becker

Bob Scott said:


> Gillian, there is an old saying
> 
> "You can educate the ignorant but you can't fix stupid". :grin::wink:
> 
> 
> Sorry Joby! I just couldn't resist that one. :grin::grin: :wink:
> 
> 
> Old Biddy is a term for an irritating, annoying old lady OR a laying hen more then a yr old.
> I'll let Maggy decide that one as she's choking out Joby. :lol::lol::lol: :wink:


yes Bob... Biddy


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## Meg O'Donovan

Christopher Smith said:


> http://thefederalist.com/2014/01/17/the-death-of-expertise/
> 
> 
> This is what happened to this forum.


Maybe some people want "experts" to show their work (reasoning), instead of accepting based on authority?

http://lesswrong.com/lw/lx/argument_screens_off_authority/


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## Christopher Smith

Meg O'Donovan said:


> Maybe some people want "experts" to show their work (reasoning), instead of accepting based on authority?
> 
> http://lesswrong.com/lw/lx/argument_screens_off_authority/


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qao4BBYzorM


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## jamie lind

Meg O'Donovan said:


> Maybe some people want "experts" to show their work (reasoning), instead of accepting based on authority?
> 
> http://lesswrong.com/lw/lx/argument_screens_off_authority/


I havnt seen an expert on here refuse to show anybody their reasoning. I've heard them say it has to be shown in person rather than on the forum


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## Catherine Gervin

Christopher Smith said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qao4BBYzorM


this and the essay by Tom Nichols are so incredibly apt!!!! this is PRECISELY what's wrong with the bend of "Customized by you/Just the way you like it/We want to bend over backwards to please you/You are the center of the universe, each and every one of you" thing that i hate!! egads it is cool to see it put so plainly and succinctly, and i totally agree with everything Tom Nichols had to say except that Jenny McCarthy was right and Fluoride and mercury binding in the multi-pak shots did cause autism...


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## Christopher Smith

jamie lind said:


> I havnt seen an expert on here refuse to show anybody their reasoning. I've heard them say it has to be shown in person rather than on the forum


Jamie most experts won't post on this forum. They don't want to put up with someone that has never done it or barely done it arguing with them. Some people don't know how to disagree and still maintain respect of the authority of the expert. 

Look at Jeff O for instance. Some members of this forum think that he was great and kept things "honest" with "expertise". But if you look past the bombast and bullshit, you'll find that he's full of shit on every level and NEVER done anything, off of the keyboard. But his antics have run off good people that have accomplished things in real life and had great knowledge to share. 

I think this forum would be well served by a "STFU If You Ain't Done It" area.


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## jamie lind

Yh


Christopher Smith said:


> Jamie most experts won't post on this forum. They don't want to put up with someone that has never done it or barely done it arguing with them. Some people don't know how to disagree and still maintain respect of the authority of the expert.
> 
> Look at Jeff O for instance. Some members of this forum think that he was great and kept things "honest" with "expertise". But if you look past the bombast and bullshit, you'll find that he's full of shit on every level and NEVER done anything, off of the keyboard. But his antics have run off good people that have accomplished things in real life and had great knowledge to share.
> 
> I think this forum would be well served by a "STFU If You Ain't Done It" area.


Your right they are few and far between. And they soon leave because they realize its a waste of time.

Yes I've seen some of his videos on youtube.


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## Faisal Khan

Christopher Smith said:


> I think this forum would be well served by a "STFU If You Ain't Done It" area.


The Level3 H.O.T club! membership would be in single digits most likely but could become a cool place someday


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## Dave Colborn

Christopher Smith said:


> http://thefederalist.com/2014/01/17/the-death-of-expertise/
> 
> 
> This is what happened to this forum.


Thanks for posting that and the link to the dunning kruger effect!


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## rick smith

re: "experts" : i consider people like Ellis, Bellon, Collins, Balabanov, etc., the "experts", and i think they don't participate in online forums is because they expect to get PAID when they "talk".
- but with that said, since i have been on this forum, i have read posts from people who i think know just as much about dogs as these "experts", and their opinions aren't gonna change based on what gets posted here either, so you either learn, just "take it", move on, or argue 

"Jeff O" gets resurrected here all the time as an example of "something", but not sure what and never really cared. if i wanted to get witty, sarcastic and come up with abrasive posts, i'm sure i could. but that would only relate to my personality - not my dog sense. imo the "Jeff O" fans don't get that part

i've curious about whether other social media apps have taken away members and it's probably part of it. nowadays people seem to like writing in twitterese rather than taking the time to draft an opinion, re-check it and eventually post it ... too old school or old fashioned i guess

i actually thought there were more active members here, but have found out that is not the case

what i have found interesting since i've been hanging around, is that it has become clear to me that most dog problems are not really related to the job a dog has, or whether they are pets or working dogs, and the solutions apply equally regardless of the dog or breed. 

but mostly i just get tired that specific Q's rarely get many specific answers and threads never stay on topic. 
- i've also learned that working dog owners can be as thin skinned as pet owners  

- for me, the forum is not a daily "fix" i need, usually not a waste of time to read the new stuff, and glad i've got a real world that keeps me busy too


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## rick smith

a couple more comments on the subject of experts and why they might not be plentiful on the WDF

- another way i define an expert in the traditional sense of the term is a person who has been successful in marketing their skills 

- but i have also seen people in person, WORKING DOGS, who have shown me incredible dog sense, both in their ability to read dogs as well as train them, who did not even have internet access and never wrote an email or text in their life


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## Christopher Smith

rick smith said:


> re: "experts" : i consider people like Ellis, Bellon, Collins, Balabanov, etc., the "experts", and i think they don't participate in online forums is because they expect to get PAID when they "talk".


rick this is a perfect example of what I was talking about. I gave you a part of the answer. I tell you what the "experts" have told me first hand and then you argue a point pulled from the ether. 

And I think your criteria for what a expert is is silly. The guy that chooses to sell me information knows more about dogs than the guy who doesn't? First of all, in the sport world many of the best teachers don't train for a living and have real jobs. And I know for a fact that their are a lot of experts that are lurking on this forum. They quote things to me all the time about things said here. 

Also how does a person that doesn't do the sport evaluate a sport training expert? For instance, you have never trained an IPO dog and don't frequent place where the sport is trained so how can you say what an expert is? The only thing you can possibly be judging now is fame. 


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## Dave Colborn

What is your criteria for an expert?

http://blogs.hbr.org/2010/08/six-keys-to-being-excellent-at/

This guy sites 10,000 hours of practice is the minimum necessary to achieve expertise in any complex domain.

Does that meet the criteria of an expert for you?




Christopher Smith said:


> rick this is a perfect example of what I was talking about. I gave you a part of the answer. I tell you what the "experts" have told me first hand and then you argue a point pulled from the ether.
> 
> And I think your criteria for what a expert is is silly. The guy that chooses to sell me information knows more about dogs than the guy who doesn't? First of all, in the sport world many of the best teachers don't train for a living and have real jobs. And I know for a fact that their are a lot of experts that are lurking on this forum. They quote things to me all the time about things said here.
> 
> Also how does a person that doesn't do the sport evaluate a sport training expert? For instance, you have never trained an IPO dog and don't frequent place where the sport is trained so how can you say what an expert is? The only thing you can possibly be judging now is fame.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## rick smith

my criteria of a dog expert is twofold :

1. they can read a dog and accurately determine why it is doing what it is doing
2. they have the ability to take a dog they don't know and make it do what they want it to do

nothing to do with marketing skills, but the xperts i named have proven they are easily capable of both.

i'm sure there are a few hundred thousand other people all over the world with the same skills

and i'm very sure this forum hasn't been degraded that much simply because the WDF experts only talk to their buds rather than post

i'm just glad some of the people who i DO consider experts take the time to post even tho it doesn't matter at all who i consider an expert or how i define the word ](*,)

btw, Maggie, i'm not a forum judger...i've only belonged to one other and got booted in less than a month because i didn't agree their forum's breed was "special"

but still curious ... WTF post did you read that tripped your trigger into starting this dumb ass thread anyway ??? :razz::razz:


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## rick smith

trivia note ...
what was funny about the "other" forum is that i was invited to join it //rotflmao//


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## Christopher Jones

maggie fraser said:


> I have just popped in and out of this board for the last couple of years or so. I see a huge change,, folks spouting all kinds of crap, a lot of it unchallenged, this is only my observation. It means nowt to me in real terms, after all I am really more of an observer. Some folks just don't evolve now do they??
> Do they ?? ha ha


I think the forum just needs more Australia vs Scotland posts from us. 
Ill start it - Michael Hutchince from INXS was far sexier a band frontman than any Scottish singer.


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## Faisal Khan

OMG you learn something new everyday! I always thought Rick and Christopher Smiths were the same person! Faisal pay attention to the first name and not just the last name!


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## Faisal Khan

The Chris Jones dude muddied up the waters too!


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## Christopher Jones

Faisal Khan said:


> The Chris Jones dude muddied up the waters too!


Its what I do best.


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## Alice Bezemer

Christopher Jones said:


> I think the forum just needs more Australia vs Scotland posts from us.
> Ill start it - Michael Hutchince from INXS was far sexier a band frontman than any Scottish singer.


Pffft! You keep your Michael Hutchince and INXS! We dunnae need them lad since we gots ourselves a Billy Connolly :-\"


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## Christopher Jones

Alice Bezemer said:


> Pffft! You keep your Michael Hutchince and INXS! We dunnae need them lad since we gots ourselves a Billy Connolly :-\"


You do know Maggies fantasy is a threesome with the proclaimers brothers?


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## Alice Bezemer

Christopher Jones said:


> You do know Maggies fantasy is a threesome with the proclaimers brothers?


The big question at hand is this... Would she walk 500 miles for them? :lol:


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## Tiago Fontes

Alice Bezemer said:


> The big question at hand is this... Would she walk 500 miles for them? :lol:


Would you, Alice? lol

A wise man once told me "always, always, but absolutely always, ask questions..." ;-)


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## Alice Bezemer

Tiago Fontes said:


> Would you, Alice? lol
> 
> A wise man once told me "always, always, but absolutely always, ask questions..." ;-)


That would be a " FOOK NAY LAD" :lol:


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## Gillian Schuler

The Forum is what we all make of it


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## Jim Duncan

Christopher Smith said:


> Jamie most experts won't post on this forum. They don't want to put up with someone that has never done it or barely done it arguing with them. Some people don't know how to disagree and still maintain respect of the authority of the expert.
> 
> Look at Jeff O for instance. Some members of this forum think that he was great and kept things "honest" with "expertise". But if you look past the bombast and bullshit, you'll find that he's full of shit on every level and NEVER done anything, off of the keyboard. But his antics have run off good people that have accomplished things in real life and had great knowledge to share.
> 
> I think this forum would be well served by a "STFU If You Ain't Done It" area.


I thought I was the only one that thought Jeff O was completely full of shit, a tool and a horrible handler/trainer. I never understood why people would listen to any of his bs?


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## Christopher Smith

Jim Duncan said:


> I thought I was the only one that thought Jeff O was completely full of shit, a tool and a horrible handler/trainer. I never understood why people would listen to any of his bs?


In many cases it was/is because they are too ignorant to know the difference. 

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## Christopher Smith

Faisal Khan said:


> OMG you learn something new everyday! I always thought Rick and Christopher Smiths were the same person! Faisal pay attention to the first name and not just the last name!


Oh Nooooooooooo! Huge difference! When in doubt, pay attention to the punctuation and sentence structure. 

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## Christopher Smith

jamie lind said:


> I havnt seen an expert on here refuse to show anybody their reasoning. I've heard them say it has to be shown in person rather than on the forum


Exactly! People write books and make hours long videos to explain something like how to play with your dog or how to start a puppy tracking, then people on this forum expect you to write a post on how to teach IPO protection or AKC tracking in one post. And don't forget, it also has to be explained in a way that they understand and it must validate what they THINK they already know. 

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## Kadi Thingvall

Christopher Smith said:


> Look at Jeff O for instance. Some members of this forum think that he was great and kept things "honest" with "expertise". But if you look past the bombast and bullshit, you'll find that he's full of shit on every level and NEVER done anything, off of the keyboard.


Yup. What always amazes me is the number of people that lament him being banned and wish he'd come back.


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## Lee H Sternberg

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Yup. What always amazes me is the number of people that lament him being banned and wish he'd come back.


The flame wars he ignited were a beautiful thing, Katie!:lol:

Post bite session with Don T were fun threads also !


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## Christopher Jones

I think people rather than adoring Jeff O, just miss all the characters and personalities. No one throught Don T had any idea what he was talking about, but they miss laughing at his posts. I cant remember the dudes name but i think he was mates with Chris Smith, Dave something. Again he was a personality and his banter with Jeff O was funny as.


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## maggie fraser

Christopher Jones said:


> I think people rather than adoring Jeff O, just miss all the characters and personalities. No one throught Don T had any idea what he was talking about, but they miss laughing at his posts. I cant remember the dudes name but i think he was mates with Chris Smith, Dave something. Again he was a personality and his banter with Jeff O was funny as.


 
David Feliciano ??


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## Christopher Jones

maggie fraser said:


> David Feliciano ??


Thats him. See, you remember him with a smiley face. ;-)


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## Lee H Sternberg

OR the Cuban guy from Florida that had screwed up Rotts. He was my personal suspect for crashing the forum a few times. He was a computer hack.

Or the guy from British Columbia whose wife got attacked by his Dutchie that he couldn't handle! He was a nasty SOB. His parting words to one of the mods were similar to the thread I just had.

Those were the good old days!


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## Lee H Sternberg

maggie fraser said:


> David Feliciano ??


Oh yeah, the cross dresser!](*,)#-o:grin:


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## Christopher Jones

Lee H Sternberg said:


> OR the Cuban guy from Florida that had screwed up Rotts. He was my personal suspect for crashing the forum a few times. He was a computer hack.
> 
> Or the guy from British Columbia whose wife got attacked by his Dutchie that he couldn't handle! He was a nasty SOB. His parting words to one of the mods were similar to the thread I just had.
> 
> Those were the good old days!


There you go. Personalities are important. They created alot of the threads and alot of the heated discussion. And funnily enough most people who knew them personally said they were good people. They just had an issue with public forums lol.


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## Bob Scott

Lee H Sternberg said:


> OR the Cuban guy from Florida that had screwed up Rotts. He was my personal suspect for crashing the forum a few times. He was a computer hack.
> 
> Or the guy from British Columbia whose wife got attacked by his Dutchie that he couldn't handle! He was a nasty SOB. His parting words to one of the mods were similar to the thread I just had.
> 
> Those were the good old days!



Parting words as a person swirls down the tube with the final flush are always a great tell to the true character of the person. :grin::grin::grin: :wink:


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## Lee H Sternberg

Bob Scott said:


> Parting words as a person swirls down the tube with the final flush are always a great tell to the true character of the person. :grin::grin::grin: :wink:


He got more and more bitter when the second Dutchie wasn't what he hoped for. He used to get pissed at me because I was able to deal with my aggressive female who he insisted was a fear bitter.

He reminded me of a unstable guy who reached his breaking point and lashed out in a stupid manner do to lack of vocabulary.

Remember when someone screwed with his daughter or someone and he gave himself "last rights" on the forum because he was going to go after the dude and go to jail?

We've had some real winners here over the years.


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## Bob Scott

I do recall his "useless" dogs. Your bitch just must not have been tough. :-o :twisted: :wink:
Those folks Keep things exciting......for a while. :lol: :wink:


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## Haz Othman

Its not adoration its entertainment.


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