# I hate ticks, need advice.



## Gerald Guay (Jun 15, 2010)

What’s your strategy for keeping ticks off your dogs. Not talking about products like Advantage here. I don’t want them even thinking about getting in my dog’s coat.

Thanks,


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

http://www.abnerspress.com/1/post/2011/03/product-spotlight-springtime-incs-bug-off.html

I've gotten all the bs comments about it, but the fact is before this product I was pulling ticks off my dog multiple times a week, including out of my bed. After I started using it I don't see a tick EVER. NOT ONE TIME.


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## chad paquin (Apr 16, 2010)

Been using that stuff for 5 years and very happy with it.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Thanx for post, big prob here. 2 dead dogs within a mile of my place n one show champ never outdoors off leash and only on training field in vets twice in a couple months costing thousands to save it.

Bug off did not show supplier details??? will import if can buy with cc.

nice site jackie, i favourited you.


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Thanx for post, big prob here. 2 dead dogs within a mile of my place n one show champ never outdoors off leash and only on training field in vets twice in a couple months costing thousands to save it.
> 
> Bug off did not show supplier details??? will import if can buy with cc.
> 
> nice site jackie, i favourited you.



Thanks. I don't think Springtime has suppliers, as far as I'm aware they sell directly to customer. www.springtimeinc.com


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

I use advantix every 2 weeks can u OD a dog on it? Thinking of going weekly against manufacturer advice??

also thinking of adding a tick collar as well and using a wash??

advice greatly appreciated.

farmers here do nothing and rarely have problems, dogs are old families could it be they have inadvertently bred resistant dogs?

long grass or lawn seem to make no difference as to wether dog gets tick or not??


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## Tanya Beka (Aug 12, 2008)

A brewers yeast and dried garlic mix works well also...


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> I use advantix every 2 weeks can u OD a dog on it? Thinking of going weekly against manufacturer advice??
> 
> also thinking of adding a tick collar as well and using a wash??
> 
> long grass or lawn seem to make no difference as to wether dog gets tick or not??


o.o Every two weeks?! Yes, absolutely you can od on those poisons...they are poisons after all. Are the doses recommended at two weeks there? Here it's once a month. I'll admit, MOST of the issues with dogs dying from Frontline/ect are from overdoses, but sometimes dogs just get a bad reaction from the stuff.

Flea/tick collars are $$wasters, I've heard some good reviews of sprays (spray on before you go out), but forget the name and probably only available in NA.

Ticks live in woods, tall grass, ect. You're more likely to come across them when you're out hiking and in tall grass. You're supposed to check through your hair if you've been through the woods, run through the dog's hair too. Pre-bug off I'd take a flea comb around the neck (hair is fluffiest), and back, visually check the legs.


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## Ricardo Ashton (Jun 3, 2010)

I use permethrin. Its a chemical compound extracted from the chrysanthemum plant. I used to have a really bad tick problem. So bad you could see ticks on them from about 10 feet away. I bought a liter of the stuff & mixed it 19:1. Sprayed the kennel & surrounding buildings. Then bathed the dogs with it. That was Christmas eve 2010. To post time NOT ONE TICK EVER CAME BACK. I bathe my dogs once a month too, but just with normal shampoo. Idk if they're all dead, or just scared to come back on the property. Either way, my dogs & property have been tick & flea free for almost an entire year, so I ain't complainin'.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Once a month for fleas, every 2 weeks for paralysis ticks. my dogs tend to not do well on the treatment, have used both frontline and advantix, better a slightly off dog than a dead one.

we talking the same ticks here???


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

In light of what happened at the WUSV, I have heard Sue Di Cero say she and Gabor use Preventic collars, and I asked my vet and he agreed that's probably the best. In addition, he also suggested spraying a dogs legs and belly with a product like Frontline Spray Treatment prior to going into an area known to have a heavy tick infestation.


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

Slightly off goes to off pretty darn quick. I got some spicy words for these ticks.

Regardless, that stuff doesn't prevent bites in the first place.


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## Kiersten Lippmann (Jun 5, 2011)

When I was living in Massachusetts, I had major tick problems and my dog (GSD) almost died of Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever/ehrlichia (she had the highest titers the vet had ever seen for both diseases). Before she got sick, I had tried all kinds of the natural stuff- including bug-off garlic, and it didn't do a thing. I was finding ticks in my own bed that had crawled off the dogs. It was disgusting. I tried frontline-plus, but ticks were still coming in the house and still attaching to my dogs.

Advantix really did work. It kept the ticks off my dogs, and there was a huge difference. Pricey but more than worth it. If my dogs ever go home for a visit all will be getting a dose of Advantix. 

Add the Preventic collar- which also keeps ticks off (not just from biting), and your dog should be tick and, more importantly, tick-disease free.

Please, only apply Advantix once a month. I had to choose the chemicals over the disease, but overdosing is never a good idea. If I remember correctly, the Preventic collar lasts three months.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Advantix must be same product in different countries, i checked packaging and definately says apply once a month for fleas and all ticks except paralysis tick, which is apply every 2 weeks. spot between shoulders and centre line hips.

Kills fleas in all stages of life cycle not just biting andy prevents ticks from biting??

Will check with vet about adding collar and weekly wash, lady with show champ in critical condition lashed out at me cos i go in the bush every day and haven't got a tick yet, hers only leaves house to train on field. she was emotional and angry so i said nothing and just listened. hope her dog makes it is all, most wouldn't spend the money on treatment.


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

Kiersten Lippmann said:


> I had tried all kinds of the natural stuff- including bug-off garlic, and it didn't do a thing. I was finding ticks in my own bed that had crawled off the dogs. It was disgusting.


Do you remember if you were using the chewables or the granules? I've had one other person tell me that the bug off didn't seem to work and they were using chewables. I use the granules myself, as well as most of my clients choosing that option, so I'm wondering if there is a consistency difference between the two products.

How expensive are those collars? Has anyone else had experience with them? Seems like it might be a good option for my fosters and other temp dogs.


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## Jonathon Howard (Nov 11, 2010)

Peter,

the tick we have in Oz is different to anywhere else. For everyone else the tick injects a toxin that attaches to nerve causing paralysis in skeletal muscle.
It takes approximately 2-3 days attached to the dog before enough toxin starts to cause clinical signs. This is when the tick is approx 3-4mm in diameter. The dog eventually dies due to diaphragm paralysis and the animal can no longer breathe.
Its natural hosts are bandicoots and wallabies.
Our clients use frontline and advantix every 2 weeks. We have not had one dog die from an OD or even be 'off'. Some owners were using proban which definately knocks the dog around but was pretty much the only product that worked 100%. It isnt made anymore.
Clients also use the preventix collars. Permetherin washes twice a week are also reccommended.
The working kelpies and cattle dogs here are pretty much immune. The ones that come in usually have more than one and they are over 1cm in diameter.

I treated 2 dogs this morning. One is doing well. The other is dead.

Nothing is 100%. You need to do daily checks.

cheers

Jon


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Thanx Jon. is there any incompatibility between collar and spot on, frontline most common here, don't remember why but i chose advantix, no collars available on shelf, so different brand collar OK?

I heard there is a injection available for tick repellent??

your a vet?? can i get tick serum for camping trips where no vet available??


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## Gerald Guay (Jun 15, 2010)

Jonathon, I think you raise a good point. Our dogs and ourselves are very little exposed to ticks until we travel to trials. Our winters, are very cold with below freezing temps for a couple of months. That helps keep the tick population in check. Our problem arises when we travel into the Northeastern United States to attend trials. 

Like what happened at the WUSV in Kiev this October. It has been reported that some of the visiting dogs are dead, some got very sick,etc. even though they had some form of protection administered before traveling to the trial. The local dogs seemed ok. 

As I write this one of our fellow club members (human that is) is still in hospital with RMF from a tick bite while attending a French Ring trial in Connecticut 2 weeks ago.

I'm hoping that your answers here will help me define a strategy to protect our dogs in the future.

Thanks to all who have replied so far. Your input is much appreciated.


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## Jonathon Howard (Nov 11, 2010)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Thanx Jon. is there any incompatibility between collar and spot on, frontline most common here, don't remember why but i chose advantix, no collars available on shelf, so different brand collar OK?
> 
> I heard there is a injection available for tick repellent??
> 
> your a vet?? can i get tick serum for camping trips where no vet available??


Most of our clients use both collar and spot on. In our area we find that frontline is less effective than advantix on both ticks and fleas.
Other collars have the same ingredient I think.

No injection as far as im aware. Some use Cydectin injectible(the cattle one) off label. It requires the tick to feed off the dog for a few days then it dies. Farmers here use it to stop paralysis ticks in cattle although its only labeled for cattle and bush ticks. Works the same way in cattle ie the tick has to feed for a few days to die. Problem with the paralysis tick is that by the time it has died it may have injected enough toxin to cause clinical signs.

Tick serum is not something i would give to a client to inject. It needs to be injected intravenously to be effective or into the abdominal cavity although not as effective. You also need the equipment to deal with anaphylactic shock if the dog has a reaction to the serum. Nothing like seeing a dogs lungs fill with blood and start coughing it up and eventually asphyxiating.
The serum is actually made in Casino, NSW. They have a colony of beagles which are resistant to the ticks after being exposed. They bleed them and spin down the serum.

cheers

Jon


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

What state are you in, i'm in Qld. I got a good vet but he is mainly dairy and pets.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Jackie Lockard said:


> Do you remember if you were using the chewables or the granules? I've had one other person tell me that the bug off didn't seem to work and they were using chewables. I use the granules myself, as well as most of my clients choosing that option, so I'm wondering if there is a consistency difference between the two products.
> 
> How expensive are those collars? Has anyone else had experience with them? Seems like it might be a good option for my fosters and other temp dogs.


Jackie we use the cattle tags on our dogs. We get them at Tractor Supply or at the local feed store. We are in the swampy woods in Louisiana. If its a creepy crawly we have it lol ... they work pretty good but nothing is fool proof here. I don't like spraying my dogs with chemicals its just a personal thing I guess. We brush and bathe our dogs quite a bit when its that time of the year.


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## Charlotte Hince (Oct 7, 2010)

Fleas are more of an issue here (I've found some ticks on me pre-bite but I've yet to find one on the dogs so they are on occasional Comfortis, Flea Free and have weekly tick checks) but I grew up in New England. Had a sheltie contract Lyme Disease on year when we took the Preventic collar off of her. Poor decision in the long run. 

For topicals, Vectra 3-D supposedly repels ticks before biting and is supposed to be a heck of a lot better than frontline. I have heard some positive things from a few hunt trialed Viszla owners but I can't attest to them myself. With that pricetag (Abour $20 a treatment) I would hope it was effective.


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## Shade Whitesel (Aug 18, 2010)

Does anyone notice a difference in the dog's scenting ability if you spray their legs with tick spray? For instance, if I go to a trial, spray my dog before his track, it seems like that would affect his nose?


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## Kelly Godwin (Jul 25, 2011)

susan tuck said:


> In light of what happened at the WUSV, I have heard Sue Di Cero say she and Gabor use Preventic collars, and I asked my vet and he agreed that's probably the best. In addition, he also suggested spraying a dogs legs and belly with a product like Frontline Spray Treatment prior to going into an area known to have a heavy tick infestation.


We have used the Preventic Collars and they worked well for keeping ticks away.


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## Chris Jones II (Mar 20, 2011)

Shade Whitesel said:


> Does anyone notice a difference in the dog's scenting ability if you spray their legs with tick spray? For instance, if I go to a trial, spray my dog before his track, it seems like that would affect his nose?


Depends what you use. Short answer is yes it can, depending. Best to spray and let the dog air out for a while before you work him. Whatever it is ain't gonna have a potent odor for hours or anything. Car exhaust can screw up the nose for a while too.

theres a new collar out. I forget what its called but it lasts 6 months. 1 collar, 6 months, good. vet says it is real effective on ticks that make it to the neck and shoulder area. they die real fast and they all die. ticks that bite the ass, well, they get to eat.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Shade Whitesel said:


> Does anyone notice a difference in the dog's scenting ability if you spray their legs with tick spray? For instance, if I go to a trial, spray my dog before his track, it seems like that would affect his nose?


I would have said no, I mean providing you are not spraying the stuff up the dog's nose, but I couldn't say for sure. I have put crap on my dog's coat (albeit not pesticides) and had my dog search and have not noted a difference in performance.

When ever I have questions like this, I like to try it out in training and see for myself.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Shade Whitesel said:


> Does anyone notice a difference in the dog's scenting ability if you spray their legs with tick spray? For instance, if I go to a trial, spray my dog before his track, it seems like that would affect his nose?


 
I'd like to see if there are studies on this to prove this? You hear all the time about not using bleach to clean kennels to Dogs as it ruins the nose? Just never saw anything, but I let the dog tell me by his behavior an actions. However, I do find the science fascinating.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Brian Anderson said:


> Jackie we use the cattle tags on our dogs. We get them at Tractor Supply or at the local feed store. We are in the swampy woods in Louisiana. If its a creepy crawly we have it lol ... they work pretty good but nothing is fool proof here. I don't like spraying my dogs with chemicals its just a personal thing I guess. We brush and bathe our dogs quite a bit when its that time of the year.


Brian, how exactly are you using cattle tags on your dogs? Keep in mind those are meant for animals that are 10-25+ times bigger than your dog. Not something I would recommend.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Frontline still works well for me around here. I don't like permethrin based products (K9 Advantix, Vectra 3D) as they are a known endocrine disruptor (so is fipronil, but not as much literature on it) and it's very toxic to cats. The only tick collar worth a darn so far is the amitraz based Preventic collar, like was mentioned. There's a new product out there called Certifect by Merial that is basically Frontline Plus with amitraz, so that may be a possibility for really tough ticks as well. 

I have asked several of the big names in holistic medicine if any of the garlic or other /8herbal commercial concoctions have been shown to work in a clinical trial and none of them have. I also had a dog that had red blood cell (eccentrocytes and acanthocytes) anemia from eating a small amount of garlic (like less than 2 cloves worth) when he got it out of the trash. This persisted for over four months, since the average RBC in the dog takes about 4 months to recycle. So I am very wary of giving dogs garlic, plus it's yet to be shown efficacious. I've found ticks and fleas on clients' dogs who said they have given garlic, brewers yeast, etc.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

But what works better in you eyes the spot on or the spray in frontline??


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I have heard the Frontline spray is on indefinite back order (supposedly due to a problem in manufacturing their bottle or something?). I was taught by one professor that the spray, if used in appropriate quantities, is actually better than the topical spot on. It's also somewhat cheaper, so if you have a kennel of dogs, it would likely be the more economical approach.


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## Charlotte Hince (Oct 7, 2010)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I have heard the Frontline spray is on indefinite back order (supposedly due to a problem in manufacturing their bottle or something?). I was taught by one professor that the spray, if used in appropriate quantities, is actually better than the topical spot on. It's also somewhat cheaper, so if you have a kennel of dogs, it would likely be the more economical approach.


Is there any real concern about toxic ingestion with the sprays (either by grooming themselves or other dogs) or does it just not carry enough risk to be concerned? One of the terriers feels its her duty to clean everyone all the time and it's why I've avoided topicals and spray in the past.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Right, I think it is a valid concern, depending on the product. Frontline is not supposed to go systemic, while Advantage Multi or Revolution does (it has to because those products also have heartworm preventative in them, while Frontline by itself doesn't). So if a dog licks Advantage Multi, in theory it is not as big of a deal. This is one of the reasons I do not like using K9 Advantix if you've got cats in the house because it contains permethrins, which is very toxic to cats. For your dog to be safe, I would treat her like a cat. I apply my cats' flea/heartworm preventative (I use cat Advantage Multi on them) right under the base of their skull down towards the neck instead of the shoulder blades. I also separate my two cats from each other so they cannot groom each other for several hours until it dries.


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I've found ticks and fleas on clients' dogs who said they have given garlic, brewers yeast, etc.


Do you know what kind of garlic they were giving? The stuff I use/recommend isn't like the garlic powder you get in grocery stores. I've never found a bug on any of my dogs that have been on Springtime's stuff. Like I said before, it was several times a weeks plus ticks all over my couch and bed pre-Springtime.

People like to say they do a lot of things they really otta.  All I know is what I have seen with my two eyes.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I understand, but even the bigwigs in the holistic medicine world say that they'd rather use the proven product. Trust me, my background for my masters degree is in endocrine disruption, I'd like to use something else myself. I have been wary of garlic since that incident with my old dog. It was actually quite scary because his blood cells looked like the same kind of blood cells that a dog with hemangiosarcoma makes, so I was kind of freaking out a bit for a while until I did blood work a total of 3 times 4 months apart and by the 3rd time, it was normal, so it must have been the garlic he got into because that's basically the two things that can make his red blood cells look like they did. He's alive to this day 3 years or so later, so no hemangiosarcoma, thank goodness!


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

I've seen a lot of dogs fall over and almost die from Frontline/etc too so I understand being weary of a product you've seen do bad. I used Frontline before the garlic, then stopped because I was still picking ticks off my dog...they can still transmit Lymes, plus the side effects. I wasn't comfortable with it. I see results, maybe it's just the ticks here, who knows? The whole reason I started looking for a new product was because of mosquitoes, happened to find a catch all. I do like to keep an eye on other people's experiences with it and other garlic products.

You're talking fresh cloves with your dog?


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

It was one of those small jars of minced garlic used for cooking. I had thrown away a jar I had just about finished (still had a little bit left that it's hard to scoop out of the jar, maybe 2 cloves worth at most, plus the oil the minced garlic sits in). I found the jar licked clean when I saw where he got into the trash. I didn't think much of it at the time since it wasn't much and I knew people give their dogs garlic. But I often do a once a year bloodwork on my dogs just to see how they are doing and it popped up on his complete blood count that I did a few weeks later. The anemia from the deformed RBCs eventually went away, but I have been gunshy of garlic, even in small quantities like what he ate, ever since. I also like to proven efficacy of something in the literature before using my patients as guinea pigs, but JMO.


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## Gerald Guay (Jun 15, 2010)

I wonder if anyone else other than Maren has had a CBC done on their dog while using the dedicated garlic product. That would be interesting to hear about.

The military has dogs all over the world. I image they have a protocol for their dogs. They may also have some interesting testing data.

Does anyone know if the Frontline spray comes in a pressurized can or in a bottle with a small hand pump as I would have to order online and i'm not sure the pressurized cans can be sent via air.

Many thanks,


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

Gerald Guay said:


> I wonder if anyone else other than Maren has had a CBC done on their dog while using the dedicated garlic product. That would be interesting to hear about.
> 
> The military has dogs all over the world. I image they have a protocol for their dogs. They may also have some interesting testing data.
> 
> ...



One of my clients has about 756 cats I think, they feed the strays on their front door too...frequently had flea issues. It was just a squeeze spray bottle they had, like windex for cats.

TSE's program was Frontline and Heartguard, I'd imagine many places follow the same or similar protocols.


Maybe the next time my dog goes in I'll get some bloodwork done for giggles. Shame I didn't think about it a couple months ago when we had blood pulled for his surgery...unless they test for anemia pre-op bloodwork? No idea.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Jackie Lockard said:


> Maybe the next time my dog goes in I'll get some bloodwork done for giggles. Shame I didn't think about it a couple months ago when we had blood pulled for his surgery...unless they test for anemia pre-op bloodwork? No idea.


If a CBC (complete blood count) was done, it should look at the morphology (shape) of the RBCs as well as the packed cell volume (PCV). That's how it turned up on my dog's blood work. Normally dog RBCs look like ours, kind of like a doughnut with a flat piece in the "hole." This is what they looked like in him:

http://ahdc.vet.cornell.edu/clinpath/modules/rbcmorph/eccentro.htm

If they did just a PCV, they can tell the relative percentage of RBCs, but not their morphology or quality.


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

Remembered I happened to have copies of his file from the time of surgery. They did a CBC, everything was normal. I've been using the garlic for three years now, roughly March-December each year.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I suspect it's an individual toxicity thing. It's pretty well known onions are toxic to dogs and cats for the same reason, but garlic seems to be less so but with significant individual variation perhaps. Actually somewhat similar to how Frontline et al. is tolerated by most animals, but there are certainly sensitive individuals out there.


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## Tashauna Medrano (Jul 23, 2011)

After reading all the posts I'm wondering if anyone has any experience with negative side effects ( with frontline, advantix or garlic) after years of use, say a cumulative built up side effect. The ticks here in Virginia get really thick. I typically use advatix but switched to frontline hoping it would work better only to discover it won't even keep the fleas at bay. I would prefer something more natural because I fear using chemicals on my dogs at all but worry that five years down the road they are going to have some random side affect that wasnt part o the clinical studies from who knows what. I know I'm paranoid when it comes to my dogs but seeing as how they dont get a say in these things i think its only fair i do right by them. So another question i have is if garlic is working for an individual and the dog isn't showing side effects now will it have a possibly to build up a toxicity after years of use or will their bodies metabolize the garlic efficiently enough to avoid a toxic build up? In the meantime I'm going to keep using advantix because it's better than Lyme disease and all the other nasty thing ticks carry.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I suspect it's an individual toxicity thing. It's pretty well known onions are toxic to dogs and cats for the same reason, but garlic seems to be less so but with significant individual variation perhaps. ...





Maren Bell Jones said:


> I have been wary of garlic since that incident with my old dog.


The unpredictable individual toxicity level is what makes me avoid the allium foods for my dogs, including garlic, even though onions are considerably more dangerous.

I've read a pile of info on the topic, and the major point for me was the extreme difference in individual animals' responses. Too risky for me. (There are many online articles ridiculing the research connecting garlic and Heinz body anemia, but the biggest source I've seen of these articles happens to sell garlic-based flea and tick control products.)


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11108195
"_Conclusions: The constituents of garlic have the potential to oxidize erythrocyte membranes and hemoglobin, inducing hemolysis associated with the appearance of eccentrocytes in dogs. Thus, foods containing garlic should not be fed to dogs. Eccentrocytosis appears to be a major diagnostic feature of garlic-induced hemolysis in dogs."
_

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15634869


http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=1&aid=2414


I don't worry about the amount used to flavor some commercial treats; what I personally would (and do) avoid is regular use of significant amounts.

JMO!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Tashauna Medrano said:


> ... So another question i have is if garlic is working for an individual and the dog isn't showing side effects now will it have a possibly to build up a toxicity after years of use or will their bodies metabolize the garlic efficiently enough to avoid a toxic build up?


That's a good question. 

Somewhere (I think a paper out of Rutgers) I read that repeated exposure to low doses of the element that causes the problem, N-propyl disulfide, is suspected of being able to cause loss of strength and disease resistance. 

I can look for it later in the week after I get some work done. Making a Postit. :lol:


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Tashauna Medrano said:


> After reading all the posts I'm wondering if anyone has any experience with negative side effects ( with frontline, advantix or garlic) after years of use, say a cumulative built up side effect. The ticks here in Virginia get really thick. I typically use advatix but switched to frontline hoping it would work better only to discover it won't even keep the fleas at bay. I would prefer something more natural because I fear using chemicals on my dogs at all but worry that five years down the road they are going to have some random side affect that wasnt part o the clinical studies from who knows what. I know I'm paranoid when it comes to my dogs but seeing as how they dont get a say in these things i think its only fair i do right by them. So another question i have is if garlic is working for an individual and the dog isn't showing side effects now will it have a possibly to build up a toxicity after years of use or will their bodies metabolize the garlic efficiently enough to avoid a toxic build up? In the meantime I'm going to keep using advantix because it's better than Lyme disease and all the other nasty thing ticks carry.


In general, it depends heavily on the chemical (doesn't matter whether "natural" or not). Some chemicals like PCBs, dioxin, and DDT are very persistent in the body. Some chemicals like bisphenol A (BPA) are not very persistent at all, but we are constantly bombarded with them.

My personal recommendation is use what works when you need it. For example, on my dogs, I do either Heartgard/Frontline or Sentinel/Frontline in the warm months (early March through mid November) and Advantage Multi or Sentinel or Heartgard etc only during the winter months. So only one chemical in the winter, but two in the summer as needed for ticks. In my hands, Frontline has still been acceptable for ticks so I haven't needed to go to something else.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Forgot to add...I personally typically do Advantage Multi during the winter because it gets fleas that live indoors as well as heartworm/intestinal worms. Heartgard by itself won't and Sentinel kills baby fleas, not adults.


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## Charlotte Hince (Oct 7, 2010)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> In general, it depends heavily on the chemical (doesn't matter whether "natural" or not). Some chemicals like PCBs, dioxin, and DDT are very persistent in the body. Some chemicals like bisphenol A (BPA) are not very persistent at all, but we are constantly bombarded with them.
> 
> My personal recommendation is use what works when you need it. For example, on my dogs, I do either Heartgard/Frontline or Sentinel/Frontline in the warm months (early March through mid November) and Advantage Multi or Sentinel or Heartgard etc only during the winter months. So only one chemical in the winter, but two in the summer as needed for ticks. In my hands, Frontline has still been acceptable for ticks so I haven't needed to go to something else.


There's something in the water indeed. :???:

In fairness it's kind of hard to run into much now that's not an endocrine disruptor in some form or another (Sr. Research Project on it with amphibians who are basically susceptible to everything). The issues are the low dose persistant exposure in most cases I would certainly agree. Not practical to prove in most lab settings but that's the nature of research I guess. 

There is really no 'off-season' in Florida for heartworm, fleas or ticks, unfortunately. RMSF and Lyme haven't reached endemic status yet but it's only a matter of time before I'm compelled to have them on a tick-approved preventative year round and at that point we'd alternate, like we do for heartworm preventative already. Heartgard/Comfortis and either Interceptor or Trifexis depending on which dog. I've avoided topicals because of the enthusiastic groomer but I may just princess collar her for a few hours for a topical.


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## Tashauna Medrano (Jul 23, 2011)

Connie Sutherland said:


> That's a good question.
> 
> Somewhere (I think a paper out of Rutgers) I read that repeated exposure to low doses of the element that causes the problem, N-propyl disulfide, is suspected of being able to cause loss of strength and disease resistance.
> 
> I can look for it later in the week after I get some work done. Making a Postit. :lol:


Thank you! The constant low dose is what I wonder about.


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## Tashauna Medrano (Jul 23, 2011)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Forgot to add...I personally typically do Advantage Multi during the winter because it gets fleas that live indoors as well as heartworm/intestinal worms. Heartgard by itself won't and Sentinel kills baby fleas, not adults.


Why not the multi year round? I'm jut curious to the reason behind the rotation.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Because it doesn't do ticks (by itself), which there are a bazillion of in mid Missouri. We have RMSF and a variety of Ehrlicia dieases in this area. I guess I could do the Preventic collar, but haven't seen a need since Frontline still seems to do okay in this area. I am not so sure about putting two topicals (i.e.-Frontline plus Advantage Multi) at the same time. I'm sure people do it, just not sure about how good of an idea it is. Will have to look into it. I like Advantage Multi as a drug, but it tends to leave more of an oiliness to the coat for a day or two afterwards than Frontline. Though my drug rep tells me you can brush it out once it dries because it goes systemic in just a few hours.


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## Tashauna Medrano (Jul 23, 2011)

Maren sorry about the stupid question I didn't realize that the multi doesn't cover ticks.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

No worries, I frequently have to look up the spectrum of activity on all the different products so I don't say the wrong thing. Hopefully.


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## Nicki Simonson (Oct 28, 2011)

I use the Bug Off chewables by Springtime, Inc. It takes some time for it to build up in the dogs' systems, and you also have to start with a small dose and build them up. I think I had my three dogs on four chews per day (two in the morning and two in the evening, with food). 

I also use some sort of "essential oils" spray I bought from a local person. I'll have to look what's included, but I know peppermint oil is a main component. I used to use diatomaceous earth but it is pretty annoying to apply, and I had to do it every 3-4 days or so. 

In the rare occasion my dogs get bathed, I add neem oil to their shampoo which is supposed to help with pests.

I didn't pull a single tick off after a few weeks of using the garlic this season. 



Gerald Guay said:


> I wonder if anyone else other than Maren has had a CBC done on their dog while using the dedicated garlic product. That would be interesting to hear about.


My Rott has a history of kidney/liver issues so I hesitated to start the garlic with him. I eventually decided to give it a try, and all of his CBCs since starting the garlic have come back normal.

I do not use year round, however, since the biggest problem here is ticks, and we don't generally have them in the middle of winter.


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## Alicia Ann (Sep 14, 2011)

Hey all, I just wanted to say, that after reading all these posts, I would like to give some feedback on my experience with some tick/flea products.

We have A LOT of ticks in my area (no fleas) and my dogs have been getting tick fever like crazy. I used frontline spot on at first, and it worked the first 2 months that we lived on this property, but then it did not work anymore (don't know why). So then we tried Preventic collars. Still found 1 or 2 ticks in 1 week but that was much better than 5-6 we were finding before. However, after 1 month and a half of using Preventic collars 4/6 of my dogs' hair started falling out around their eyes. I took of the Preventic collars and their hair started growing back. I thought it could have been coincidence so tried the collars on again. Again their hair fell out and this time skin started becoming crusty. So I have had to stop using the Preventic collars.

I have a dog that has turned anemic with small doses of garlic so now I am at a loss for what I can use anymore? Frontline spray on is VERY expensive here (and I suspect the outcome will be same as spot on) and having 6 dogs I really can't afford it and we have a large land so I can't treat the environment neither. Right now I am dealing with ticks by checking my dogs twice a day.

Advantix is also known not to work for periods longer than 1-maximum 2 weeks in my area so not going to waste my time with that either...

ETA: I used normal garlic capsules for humans, we dont get Springtime products here in South Africa


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

Alicia, what about that magic spray/wash/rinse stuff Ricardo was talking about? I'm keeping that stuff in the back of my head for when I have outdoor kennels. Sounds worth a shot at the least.


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## Alicia Ann (Sep 14, 2011)

Jackie Lockard said:


> Alicia, what about that magic spray/wash/rinse stuff Ricardo was talking about? I'm keeping that stuff in the back of my head for when I have outdoor kennels. Sounds worth a shot at the least.


We only get the frontline spray here nothing else... It is absurdly expensive and I assume it is the same as the pour-on (which stopped working a few months in) and considering we live on an expansive field really with thousands of trees and a lot of weeds/grass I would have to use it every day instead of "just when doing field work".


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