# Leg bites for ASR dogs in training



## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

I had a question about leg bites and just re-read this thread....
http://www.workingdogforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=163&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=20

From the comments on that thread, I can see the purpose of training leg-bites in PSD's, but what about dogs-in-training for ASR? I'm training my dutchie strictly for ASR and am wondering if it is necessary/advantageous for me to teach him leg bites. Also, would there be any negative repercussions to teaching him leg bites?

Thanks.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Greater risk when working a dog on a sleeve? :lol: ASR is flexible on where the dog bites as long as the dog bites well... the leg bite dogs are typically French Ring dogs that go and do ASR... or maybe some people who are bored of teaching upper body bites and want to do something different. I like upper body bites, then the out/guard re-bite to be crotch/leg/thigh, just because I think it's a cool way to do it, and perhaps a little quicker to get the bite when the target is right next to the dogs head opposed to having to leap up and re-bite.


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## Mike Kitchen (May 5, 2006)

Hi konnie,
I am new to this but let me give this a shot. As in police or protection dogs when the dog bites high the bad guy can not have as good mobility as if the dog bit legs. It puts the dog closer to the face of the bad guy with more confrintation (i hope I spelled that right). But a leg biter can have so much more pressure on them from the decoy. Just a thought good luck in training!!!! mike kitchen


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Mike:

"...new to this" my a$$!!!

If I could smack you upside the head right now I would  

I already got your answer on Saturday and I was looking for a more education opinion. Hahahahahaha.

(I'll run and hide now......I think I can run faster than Mike anyhow)


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

There you are, Mike! Welcome to the forum!


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## Mike Kitchen (May 5, 2006)

Please be gentle with me I am new and want to learn more!!!!!!


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Mike Kitchen said:


> Please be gentle with me I am new and want to learn more!!!!!!


Hi Mike, hear your name a lot, all good things. Glad you are here.


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## Mike Kitchen (May 5, 2006)

Don't beleive anything its not true, I am liking the topics people have to ask and different responses. mike


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

QUOTE MIKE: "_But a leg biter can have so much more pressure on them from the decoy_" END QUOTE

I've seen videos of dogs biting crotches of the bite suit. I figure that must be pretty debilitating for the person being bitten (if it was a real-life bite). Is it a similar thing to leg bites for sport dogs though - does a crotch bite also put the dog in a position for the decoy to put more pressure on the dog? Seems like it would be similar.

I think we should teach Stash to do crotch bites. That could get pretty interesting using that light-weight suit of yours, Mike.


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## Mike Kitchen (May 5, 2006)

If the badguy gets bit in the crotch he still has the ability to hit the dog with something as he panics to stop the pain. The decoy is hopefully smart enough to provide protection for him or her self. About working stash on the happenings. No need to damage any equipment!!!!!!! Figures its a woman that wants to do groin bites. Do you not care for me???


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Hey bro, we're still friends. I'm just trying to get you back for your smart-a$$ comments. :twisted:


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## Anne Jones (Mar 27, 2006)

*leg bites*

Hey Mike, I think that Blitz is the one that should do the crotch bites   !!!! Zasha might like to get some of that action too, since she likes to get 'dirty' anyway!!! :lol: :lol: What do ya think ???? Shall we try it Saturday ??


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Mike Kitchen said:


> Don't beleive anything its not true, I am liking the topics people have to ask and different responses. mike


Just heard you like babysitting for free and handing out money to average joes, nothing about you and dogs. :lol:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I have heard that PSA wants to include leg bites, but I have seen the test that they do, and I am not sure how that would work. I don't know many decoys that could even do the courage test with the leg bites without killing the dog or themselves. It is a matter of a decoy coming at 10 miles an hour, and a dog at 35 and somehow not snapping your knee, or the dogs neck.

NOT SLAMMING, repeat not slamming, but I have seen a lot of decoys that are really........well..........fat. I do not see the athletisism in the skinny ones either. The few I have seen trained overseas in france, or come up from Mexico that might possibly be able to do it.

I will end this by saying that I have not seen every decoy in the US.


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## Stacia Porter (Apr 8, 2006)

I actually asked this question at ASR this past Sat (but only in reference to my dog, who targets the left arm) and I was told it was unimportant (but that was, again, in context of my own dog -- the trainer felt that our time would be better spent on learning excercises since the dog does bite and there are no rules about him having to bite a certain place). I was told we would spend more time trying to get him to bite other places than it was probably worth.

Do leg bites have any value as far as real world circumstances? I guess I'm asking: why train leg bites?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Ask Chris Fraize. He has a good video of a guy taking a leg and an arm bite.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Stacia Porter said:


> Do leg bites have any value as far as real world circumstances? I guess I'm asking: why train leg bites?


because in the "real world" a dog should bite whatever is available. sometimes the upper body/arm is not available. dog should bite anyway...


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## Mike Kitchen (May 5, 2006)

Targeting the left and right arm is not difficult and could be done in two sessions. By the way I agree about decoys in america, I was fortunate enough to be taught by an excellent decoy and can do a full sprint toward a dog and still take the impact. It requires good timing. I don't do it to often because things can still go wrong. I don't like taking chances because I actually don't need to do uneccasery things for my dogs.


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## Mike Kitchen (May 5, 2006)

Not sure about the babysitting or handing out cash but I am sure its true. I am a sucker!!!!!


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

QUOTE STACIA:_"I actually asked this question at ASR this past Sat (but only in reference to my dog, who targets the left arm) and I was told it was unimportant..."_END QUOTE

I heard this too, however, when you read the rules, it specifically addresses this issue. This is a direct quote from the ASR web site (http://www.americanstreetring.org/rules.htm#GenEligReq):
"_13. During any bite at any Level, the dog is permitted to change its bite to a more strategically advantageous position. However, the change must be virtually instantaneous such that there is not a significant loss of biting time. The decoy is permitted to actively oppose the dog during such a change of bite by either attempting to elude the re-engagement, or by aggressively attacking/intimidating the dog. 

*Should the decoy determine that the dog prefers a specific bite location, the decoy may attempt to block that preferred location with an appropriate Object of Opposition (baton, foam insulation, etc.), or by offering a bite location that is less preferable (for example, if the dog attempts to change to a leg bite, and does not prefer to bite the arm/chest, the decoy may try to block the leg by covering it with the arm). In such a scenario, the dog should immediately bite the available location*._"

If I'm reading this correctly, it seems as if I should at least train my dog to adjust to the decoy's actions and bite regardless of what's being presented to him, right?


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Is that referring to the _initial_ bite, or changing location after the initial bite?


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## Mike Kitchen (May 5, 2006)

Well you want the dog to bite anywhere except the groin. Mike uses the happenings and can't afford new ones. You don't want the dog changing the bite at all.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

So, Mike, you would agree that in ASR the decoy could possibly try to block the preferred location for a bite and force the dog to bite elsewhere?


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## Mike Kitchen (May 5, 2006)

Ya but no worrries they will target him on the arms or chest were he should be!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Stacia Porter (Apr 8, 2006)

So what's the best way of getting my dog to go after the right arm (as he already does the left)? If the right side is "offered," he just goes around :roll: . Although he did attempt an armpit bite on the suit...only it was too shallow and he lost it as the decoy moved away. Saturday was his first time ever on the suit (he has a foundation in SchH and had a 7 month hiatus on any bitework; he's now 17 months old as of tomorrow)...he seemed, to me, to be having trouble with the "thinness" of the suit, really sorta threw him off, but he bit it.


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## Mike Kitchen (May 5, 2006)

First tie the dog out on a line. have the decoy target one side and then slip the jacket, next target the other side and slip the jacket, keep going back and forth the each arm but slipping the jacket each time. two sessions of this and your dog will bite both sides.


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