# Heartworm



## David Frost

I purchased a GSD in September '08. As always, I had a physical done before purchase. The dog was negative hw. the breeder used ivomectin. Based on the negative test, the dog was placed on Heart Guard. He completed training in December and was assigned with his handler to West TN. The handler took the dog to the vet he would be using there, in January. The vet did a snap test for a current prescription of Advantage and as common practice, I forwarded the xrays and medical records from the vet I use when I purchase dog. The dog was due the annual physical in July. During that physical the dog tested positive for heartworm. The handler swears he did not miss a single dose of medication. I believe him. In discussions with the attending vet I was informed there has been a considerable outbreak of hw among dogs that are using Heartguard. I was informed several dogs with Memphis PD were undergoing treatment. I've not yet confirmed that. I was told by a FEMA trainer, she had several dogs being treated that were on Heartguard. I was also told that Auburn was conducting a study based on the outbreak that supposedly runs from West Ar to the Mississippi Rivier and south to LA. I did email a friend of mine at Auburn. He said he'd try to confirm that Auburn was working such a study. 

DFrost


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## Connie Sutherland

Slightly off topic, but Merial will foot the treatment bill, correct?


Also, I have read more than one of these stories about dogs who swallow it whole (as many do, of course) and who are later diagnosed positive:

http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art35956.asp


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## David Frost

Yes, the bill isn't important. This is the second one in 2 years. the other was in East part of the state though. It's just the hassle. 

DFrost


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## Tim Lynam

David,

Missing 1 dose should not be a factor. I'm not a veteranarian but, from what I understand, the microfillaria in the bloodstream do not "become" (mature into) adult heartworms for around 90 days. In otherwords, Heartguard retroactively kills the microfillaria that have entered the bloodstream in the last 30 days. It would also kill any in the bloodstream from the last 60 days...

Tim


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## Connie Sutherland

?

There was no dose missed, as I understand it.


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## David Frost

No dose missed. It can take up to six months to show up. From what I understand, the current test (Snap Test) is more sensitive than the old saturation float test they once did for microfilaria. 

DFrost


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## Jason Caldwell

There is no better h'worm preventative than ivomectin, hands down. One of my vets said that, not me.

Use Ivomec, not the generic crap which is diluted by as much as 20%.

This infuriates me b/c the large drug companies push their pills for so much money, but their dirty secret is that most meds go bad over time and sometimes quality control, with non-human meds is lax. Even if the box is well dated, all it takes is a day or two in a hot warehouse and the drug loses efficacy. 

PM me if you need to, but with a skilled vet, ivomectin can be used on a dog with h'worms. Find a vet who has done this and understands the protocol. I've seen it done before. 

As for me, I shoot Ivomec mixed with grape soda down my dog's throats at the start of the month. Then, for no apparent reason, the remote goes missing, there is a turd in my shoe, and fang tears in the drapes. I've heard the stuff is super bitter, even with soda.


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## Jerry Lyda

Well I'm not about to taste it. I shoot it straight. They do a little lip licking but that's about it.

It's got to be good. Down here in the mother land, I mean South, there's a ton of moskeeteers and I've never had heartworms, in my dawgs.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

The herding comunity locally is discussing this as well. A clubmember's dog has been on Interceptor all year round and came back positive. One of the vet techs commented that they are seeing break through cases on Heartguard in her area.

Terrasita


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## Bob Scott

Thunder had heartworm at two yrs old while on Heartguard. Since then I've gone to straight Ivermectin purchased at the feed store. I just squirt the correct amt on their food with a hypo needle. No problems.
It's a ton cheaper also.


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## michael carroll

I do the same as Jerry, *** straight down the throat. I'm thinking about switching to a horse worming paste that I read about on a beagle forum,[Equimax ] ivermectin 1.87 %/ praziquantel 14.03% gets most worms including tape.Used it a couple of times with out any ill effects that have shown up at this point.The beaglers are all using it. I also use safeguard for goats on pregnant bitches,and a wormer called Valbazen [albendazole] cattle and sheep wormer on lactating bitches and pups.Might get slammed for this,but it works for me.I've had negative worm checks for a long time.



* dosage deleted


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## Nancy Jocoy

I have used the paste and it is real cheap
I have heard concerns about uniformity of the drug distribution within the past.

No problems here, but I do get interceptor once a year and use that every few months too.


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## Kristen Cabe

I used to use Ivomec, but starting this year I'm using nosodes, in an attempt to go as chemical-free as possible. We'll see how they do.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Curious...how would nosodes help with Dirofilaria? (disclaimer that I'm not a fan of homeopathy in general, but yeah)

Just a friendly reminder before using any of the wormer pastes that you have to dose yourself...ask your vet for help first! Being off by a decimal point or two can be fatal for a MDR-1 mutation dog. Also, if you have that is heartworm positive on the snap test, make sure the test is run once more just to be sure. Like all laboratory tests, there can definitely be false positives!


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## Kristen Cabe

I'm not exactly sure. Something about training the dog's body to recognize them as 'intruders' and attack them before they have a chance to mature. I've been skeptical about them for several years, but have heard that they do, in fact, work, so I'm giving them a try.


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## Maren Bell Jones

My big thing with homeopathy is they've never really explained why they work (*if* indeed they do), so if people want to use them as an adjunct to another well described treatment, I have no issue with that. It's their money and if it helps, it helps. If it doesn't, well, no harm done. That's why I disagree with using homeopathy/nosodes with things like rabies because it's a deadly pretty much 100% fatal zoonotic disease that's preventable. We don't have that many people in the States die of it, but they do in other parts of the world and it's appalling to see people with rabies. Until I see major peer reviewed, independent research on nosodes showing its efficacy similar with the rabies vaccine, that's not really something I'd gamble on. I am all about minimally vaccinating pets (all but my therapy dogs usually just get nothing but the 3 year rabies once they've been tested for an adequate parvo/distemper titer) and using a minimal amount of chemicals, but it's a risk/benefit analysis. Heartworm is probably one of those things that's deadly enough that I wouldn't risk it. Just my opinion.


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## Connie Sutherland

Well, I wish that I had worked up that paragraph about homeopathy, because my secret "I call BS" feelings always manage to taint my posts about how it might be a nice thing to try _along with something that you know works_ .... 


The "Law of Similars" has never gotten past my wall of skepticism, and I'm a big proponent of so-called alternative medicine.

JMO.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Right...like if people want to use something like Bach's Rescue Remedy with an anxious or nervous dog (or person), that's fine, I personally don't have a problem with it. It's not likely a life or death situation, whereas heartworm disease can be deadly and rabies is definitely deadly. Hope that makes sense...


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## Kristen Cabe

I'm currently treating a hw+ dog with a homeopathic remedy and nosodes. He tested positive for both adults and microfiliarae, so I'll keep you updated as to how it goes with him.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYFwT1LcBdI


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Kristin:

The alternative treatment does work. I know of several rescue people that have used it for dogs that tested positve. It assumes a total program of good natural diet, using a repellant for mosquitos [garlic, apple cider vinegar works internally and essential oils work externally]. I got on the Jean Dodds bandwagon in 1998 regarding vaccines and have also tried to eliminate all things chemical/pesticide as much as possible. We have a couple of 13 year olds that are the testimonial. If you google Bandit and heartworm that gives you one of the protocols. There are a couple of CA vets that also utilize the nosodes.

Terrasita


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## Connie Sutherland

Kristen Cabe said:


> I'm currently treating a hw+ dog with a homeopathic remedy and nosodes. He tested positive for both adults and microfiliarae, so I'll keep you updated as to how it goes with him.





Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Kristin:
> 
> The alternative treatment does work. I know of several rescue people that have used it for dogs that tested positve. It assumes a total program of good natural diet, using a repellant for mosquitos [garlic, apple cider vinegar works internally and essential oils work externally]. I got on the Jean Dodds bandwagon in 1998 regarding vaccines and have also tried to eliminate all things chemical/pesticide as much as possible. We have a couple of 13 year olds that are the testimonial. If you google Bandit and heartworm that gives you one of the protocols. There are a couple of CA vets that also utilize the nosodes.
> 
> Terrasita


We need terminology clarification. 

Herbal treatment using full-strength herbal remedies is not the same as homeopathic treatment. 

Essential oils at full strength are not homeopathy.

Aside from whether or not this protocol works:
http://www.banditsbuddies.com/faqs.shtml
... it is not homeopathy. It is what people would call alternative, but it's not homeopathy.

The top item is mugwort/wormwood. This isn't homeopathic. The first couple of ingredients are actually worm killers (I don't know how effective, but that's why wormwood is called that), and the other ingredients are considered to be more general support. CO Q-10, for example, is thought to increase the strength of the heart's pumping action (not well documented). The point is that none of this is homeopathy.


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## Connie Sutherland

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> There are a couple of CA vets that also utilize the nosodes.
> 
> Terrasita


For treating heartworm-positive dogs? Just for clarity ...


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## Connie Sutherland

"Homeopathic" is often used interchangeably with "holistic" or "alternative" or 'herbal." 

There is actually some overlap, and sometimes holistic practitioners practice homeopathy as well as other disciplines.

But homeopathy is a method of treating disease with tiny (sometimes so diluted that it is nonexistent, or no longer measurably present) amounts of remedies that, in large amounts in healthy individuals, would produce symptoms like the symptoms being treated.

The Law of Similars (the basis of homeopathy) could be explained by the phrase "like cures like."

There is no logical explanation that I know of for why substances that could produce symptoms should cure such symptoms when given in extremely dilute amounts.

Again, though, this is not (not _at all_) saying that holistic medicine or alternative medicine, period, falls under the umbrella of homeopathy. It does not.


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## Connie Sutherland

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYFwT1LcBdI


He gives a good explanation of homeopathy!


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## Connie Sutherland

Kristen Cabe said:


> I'm currently treating a hw+ dog with a homeopathic remedy and nosodes. ....


What is the remedy you are using?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

http://www.napoleon.org.uk/alternative.htm

Nice, so take a piece of a heart from that dead dog you will have in a while, and you can make a nosode as well. Endorsed by authors and everything.

Then, go stand in traffic, as you are not God, and you need to take care of your responsibilities, but no, have decided NOT to believe in what works, but instead let the infestation continue.

Carry on *MOD EDIT*


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## Kristen Cabe

Connie Sutherland said:


> What is the remedy you are using?


It's a homeopathic (not an herbal mixture) called Paratox (and no, it's not the same as the Paratox that you will find if you do a Google search for it), coupled with the nosodes (which are, I believe, to build up the dog's 'immunity' against the microfiliarae - damn, is that spelled right? I think I spell it differently every time I type it! :lol: )The nosodes are continued after the treatment with the Paratox is finished, as a preventive measure. It (Paratox) was created by Dr. Gerald Wessner, in Florida, and apparently has been very successful at treating heartworm down there, so I figured I'd give it a try. It cost $75, so is much more cost-effective than the conventional treatment, is not nearly as traumatic for the dog, and you don't have to keep the dog confined. It just takes a little longer than the conventional treatment. I'm interested to see if it works for this dog.


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## Kristen Cabe

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> take a piece of a heart from that dead dog you will have in a while, and you can make a nosode as well.


Actually, the heartworm nosode is made from the actual parasites; not from the damaged heart of an infested dog. 

"The homeopathic nosode that is made from heartworm larva..." - http://www.danebytes.com/heartworm.htm
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## Kristen Cabe

"[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif][FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]the heartworm nosode is intended to trigger the dog to produce antibodies that are capable of destroying the larval form of the heartworm." - Whole Dog Journal, Volume 1, #4, June 1998


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## Nancy Jocoy

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Just a friendly reminder before using any of the wormer pastes that you have to dose yourself...ask your vet for help first! QUOTE]
> 
> 
> Maren, some of us can do math......... [sorry I was a biochemist in undergrad school and an anaytical chemist in grad school and watched all the premed and prevet students cheat their way through chemistry while I was immersed in it because it was so neat. poke poke poke]


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Connie,

The nosodes have been used in conjunction with other things [herbal] as treatment and as a preventative. 

Terrasita


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## Connie Sutherland

Kristen, is this it?

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=47894


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## Connie Sutherland

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Connie,
> 
> The nosodes have been used in conjunction with other things [herbal] as treatment and as a preventative.
> 
> Terrasita


Gotcha. 

There are definitely herbs that kill worms. I haven't read up on trials, etc., but I know that some can kill worms.

I was really just trying to make clear the line between homeopathic and herbal, or homeopathic and natural, or homeopathic and non-pharmaceutical. I have not seen a true homeopathic remedy that has been proven to work.

I haven't read much on the detoxsode Kristen is using, but I thought that it was used in conjunction with Diatomaceous earth (a wormer).

I don't know much about how well Diatomaceous earth works, either (but I should) --- but if that's the protocol, then it's not a homeopathic heartworm treatment. It's a natural wormer (Diatomaceous earth) used with a homeopathic support preparation (a detoxsode called Paratox).


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## Terrasita Cuffie

They're using food grade diatamaceous earth along with the herbals as well. DE is also being used as a wormer with livestock.

Terrasita


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## Connie Sutherland

I'm very interested in the Diatomaceous earth as well as the herbal wormers.

I received a couple of PMs today about harshness of one of the herbal wormers, and it made me want to read about all the alternative (not homeopathic :lol: ) heartworm treatments.

Good thread.


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## Connie Sutherland

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> They're using food grade diatamaceous earth along with the herbals as well. DE is also being used as a wormer with livestock.
> 
> Terrasita


This I have seen a lot about, but haven't read efficacy studies.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Maren Bell Jones said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just a friendly reminder before using any of the wormer pastes that you have to dose yourself...ask your vet for help first! QUOTE]
> 
> 
> Maren, some of us can do math......... [sorry I was a biochemist in undergrad school and an anaytical chemist in grad school and watched all the premed and prevet students cheat their way through chemistry while I was immersed in it because it was so neat. poke poke poke]
> 
> 
> 
> Nancy, I've got a masters degree in a biology and I dosed mice with chemicals all the time. I could do the math too. Well, most of the time. :wink: Even in grad school, we were still required to check our calculations with someone else in the lab before preceeding with a new protocol as mistakes happen even with the best of us (and I'm really not even all that great at math!). I remember one famous paper from another lab regarding the chemical we studied (bisphenol A) had to be recalled because the dose they thought they used was in micrograms/kg and it was actually nanograms/kg. A bit embarrassing.  Point is, it shouldn't be a matter of pride to run the numbers with someone else who knows what they're doing. It's not an insult to anyone's intelligence, it's just a simple precaution to take.
> 
> Before vet school, I still checked with my vet on doses for OTC things. Even during vet school, I still check with my professors for things like interactions. They deal with the drugs all the time, I don't (yet) and neither does Dr. Google. I do remember a thread not too awful long ago that was closed on the same subject of heartworm meds and dosing. It's not a good thing to get into online as a general rule, as you might imagine. And if you use it off label and the dog gets heartworm disease, you're stuck with the bill whereas the majority of the companies that I am aware of will pay for treatment if you use their product on label with the guidance of a licensed vet plus a yearly HW test.
Click to expand...


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## Maren Bell Jones

Connie Sutherland said:


> This I have seen a lot about, but haven't read efficacy studies.


One of our food animal professors (who is somewhat open to holistic type stuff) reported in class that she and one of her colleagues is not too impressed with herbal wormers in small ruminants, but she is a fan of the FAMACHA method for selecting for parasite resistant stock as well as using anthemintics judiciously to prevent resistance to dewormers, along with rotational grazing strategies. Connie, I'm sure you're well aware, but as a side note, the other issue with herbals are that they aren't always innocuous just because they're natural. Always gotta be a little caveat emptor when some of these products are literally cooked up in someone's garage.


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## Connie Sutherland

Maren Bell Jones said:


> .... Connie, I'm sure you're well aware, but as a side note, the other issue with herbals are that they aren't always innocuous just because they're natural. Always gotta be a little caveat emptor when some of these products are literally cooked up in someone's garage.



Ohhhhh yes. Very well aware. It's hard to keep repeating these warnings without sounding like a closed-minded western-med drone, but you gotta. "Natural" and "herbal" do not mean "automatically safe."

I do everything I can not to put more money into big pharma pockets and more chemicals into my dogs and myself. That doesn't mean blindly using everything in the herb room of the health food store. :lol:

But I doubt that that's anything anyone here does. This is a well-read group. I receive a lot of my best citations in PMs from this board (you know who you are, no names mentioned Lynn and Michael). :lol:


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## susan tuck

David Frost said:


> I purchased a GSD in September '08. As always, I had a physical done before purchase. The dog was negative hw. the breeder used ivomectin. Based on the negative test, the dog was placed on Heart Guard. He completed training in December and was assigned with his handler to West TN. The handler took the dog to the vet he would be using there, in January. The vet did a snap test for a current prescription of Advantage and as common practice, I forwarded the xrays and medical records from the vet I use when I purchase dog. The dog was due the annual physical in July. During that physical the dog tested positive for heartworm. The handler swears he did not miss a single dose of medication. I believe him. In discussions with the attending vet I was informed there has been a considerable outbreak of hw among dogs that are using Heartguard. I was informed several dogs with Memphis PD were undergoing treatment. I've not yet confirmed that. I was told by a FEMA trainer, she had several dogs being treated that were on Heartguard. I was also told that Auburn was conducting a study based on the outbreak that supposedly runs from West Ar to the Mississippi Rivier and south to LA. I did email a friend of mine at Auburn. He said he'd try to confirm that Auburn was working such a study.
> 
> DFrost


Yikes, that's pretty awful. I use Revolution heartworm pervenative and was wondering if it has a better track record?


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## Maren Bell Jones

Yes, I know precisely what you mean. It should go without saying, but yes. As always, I don't mean to insult anyone's intelligence and there's some intelligent folks around, but I feel more secure making suggestions (realizing I'm not a doctor yet) at a table at dinner instead of on a forum where people can lurk and cherry pick what sounds good or misinterpret so many things. I want the holistic approach to thrive in human and veterinary medicine, but it's sometimes difficult when Dr. Google is the primary care doctor. It's a frustration for a lot of holistic practitioners that still believe in evidence based medicine as they want to help, but people are more willing to trust something on a webpage than their local doctor. :-k


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## Don Turnipseed

If the dog is retested, take him it to a differenmt vet. Could be you will learn something about the vet you are using. Don't tell the second vet he has been tested.

Here is something to think about. I had two dogs diagnosed with heartworm over the years. Neither was an advanced case. I took them home and religiously gave them their heartworm each mo. I use the liquid for cattle on a piece of bread. One of the dogs died about 6 months ago at 14 years 2 mo old. He was diagnosed years ago. I figure if the infestation isn't to bad, the IVO kills the new microfilia each mo. The adult worm has a limited life expectancy and eventually is going to die on it's own. Back to heartworm free....just takes a bit longer. One dog is still alive, the other seemed to do fine running the mountains. I retired him at 12 ...he died at 14+. That isn't homeopathic either.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Perhaps they have run the gamut with uninformed local doctors? Interesting, your comment regarding resistance to dewormers. As we hear more and more stories of break through infestations despite rigid compliance with the drug company's protocol, how long will it take for recommendatioins regarding rotating different products or alternatives. There's discussion already regarding rotating heartworm products. If I had a dog on year round heartworm religiously and low and behold he test positive, I don't care that the drug company is going to pay for a treatment that has its own risk. This recently happened to a club member's 10 year old dog. Everyone likes to cite studies, but your dog wasn't in the study. In 1998, Dodds was highly criticized. By 2004, some of the major vet schools come on board to admit that there is no evidence of the need for annual vaccinations. To Vanguard's credit they did their own study regarding the coverage of their combo vaccine---5 years. A few years laterthe AMVA comes on board. Yet you still have vets dosing dogs annually with every vaccine on the market and all at once. A year ago, my father-in-law calls to tell methat a puppy that I placed with him---then 7 years had an injury. He took him to the vet who prescribed Rimadyl. Two weeks later they call me to tell me that they had been back to the vet because he was acting funny. The vet told them to continue to give him the medication. I asked them to describe the symptoms. He had EVERY reaction listed on the Rimadyl site. I told them to get him to the emergencycenter immediately. He died on the way there. Did I know of the Rimadyl sideeffects from the vet? NO. Did the vet provide my father-in-law with the inset warning of signs of a reaction? No. Did the vet even consider side effects to the medication? No. Unfortunately, all my Rimadyl internet education did not save this dog because they called me, the breeder too late. They detrimentally relied on the vet's expertise. 

Then of course this year I have the story of a dog that I co-own. Vet calls me to tell me that he has bladder cancer which he found on an ultrasound. So the co-owner arranges surgery. Vet calls me after the surgery and tells me that he couldn't resect it and that he's not sure what to do with it so he snipped a piece for pathology. I thought wait a minute, something is wrong here. I hadn't really questioned him before since he claimed that basedon the ultrasound, he was sure what he was seeing. I asked him if he had visualized the prostate on the ultrasound. He hesitated and said, "no." I next asked him had he palpated the prostate on exam? He said no, he couldn't feel it. I then asked him that isn't that usually evidence of perhaps an enlarged prostate. He said yes. So now he tells me that he doesn't think its a serious mass/cancer. I'm thinking, uh huh. Pathology report comes back BPH---benign prostate hyperplasia. Nothing like a little saw palmetto and lycopene. 

I try to make the most informed decisions possible for our pets and that includes considering the expertise of the breeder/handler network. For just as many google quacks, there are the same with VMD or DVM behind their name. You have to sift through the rubble to find the good ones such as Dr. John Stolz in Washington, MO. East vs. West, raw vs. kibble can get like discussing religion and I generally bail. I was actually glad David posted what he did because this has become an issue locally and we were wondering if it was isolated or more wide spread. 

Terrasita


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## Maren Bell Jones

I think there's some general confusion about how heartworm tests are run, Don. As anyone who's had any statistics or epidemiology knows, no test is perfect and you can certainly have false positives on the tests. That's not the "fault" of the doctor if the sample was handled correctly and we cannot assign moral or legal blame to a little plastic cassette. So particularly on any test that gives us a positive and the treatment is not totally innocuous (i.e.-chemo for cancer, heartworm treatment, etc), you have to re-test before you tell Mrs. Jones that their dog is heartworm positive and they understandably freak out. A vet who diagnoses heartworm disease without running at least an extra test and lets Mrs. Jones freak out likely went to K-State.  The heartworm test is typically done nowadays with something like the Heska SNAP test, which look this:












If you have a test with high sensitivity (which is good, because it makes sure you don't miss numbers in your population that actually have it), that also means you are more likely to get false positives because the SNAP test picked up something it "shouldn't" have. If you have a high specificity, that means you're more likely to exclude all but what you're actually looking for. 

So unless you have a test with 100% sensitivity and 100% specificity (of which the in lab heartworm tests are neither), you'll get both false positives and negatives. So even if a lab test is 99.9% sensitive and specific, statistically you'll still get one dog in a thousand that may test false positive or negative. Hope that makes sense. It's not a huge deal as long as you run tests in series or an alternate test to confirm the results as that's just the statistical nature of doing lab work. It is a big deal when they're not done, you inform the owner their dog has HW disease when they don't, and Mrs. Jones freaks out and Fluffy has to undergo a medical procedure they may be able to avoid just by running an extra $25 test. [-X


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## michael carroll

I can identify with what Don is saying.I've had dogs that tested positive,and when treated with ivo starting with low doses and working up to full dose over several months.Tested again later and being negative.I've known several other people that have done the same.So this either works,at least for some dogs or false positives occurs more often then I would think.I've also heard of ivo being used for ear mites,but I have never tried it.


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## Don Turnipseed

I am not familiar with the snap test your right. When my dogs were tested they showed me a sim-ple slide and pointed out the microfilaria. Woul;dn't be hard to keep such a slide handy.

Actually Maren, I made the post to see what your comments would be concerning the second half of the post regarding not having a $500+ dollar lifesaving cure done but simply continuing the heartworm treatment. Right or wrong? Or should I interpret the lack of comment


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## Nancy Jocoy

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Nancy Jocoy said:
> 
> 
> 
> And if you use it off label and the dog gets heartworm disease, you're stuck with the bill whereas the majority of the companies that I am aware of will pay for treatment if you use their product on label with the guidance of a licensed vet plus a yearly HW test.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is absolutely true. But my experience is most veterinarians I know will tell you you have to buy the product. Some of the old farm vets are more sensible about people doing some of their own animal care but I have found many of the newer ones to be quire patronizing [no different than MDs].
> 
> Big difference - the vet probably knows more about everything than the MD and earns less.
> 
> FWIW, I do pay the vet the small fee for those vaccinations I do because they get recall notices if issued, can buy the single injections versus the 5 and 7 way, and I have more confidence in their storage than feed stores.
Click to expand...


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## Kristen Cabe

Connie Sutherland said:


> Kristen, is this it?
> 
> http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=47894


Yes. I was instructed to give 3cc's of Paratox twice-a-day until the bottle is gone, which should take approximately 2 months. In addition, I was instructed to use the nosodes, giving them once-a-day for two weeks, then every other day for two weeks, etc. until I was only giving them once-a-month, and then to continue doing that as a preventive measure after the Paratox was finished. I guess you could probably also use ivermectin instead of the nosodes, if you wanted to. 

The reason I decided on this treatment as opposed to the herbals is because I had also heard about how harsh some of those can be as well. Not to mention the fact that some dogs have reactions to them just like they could with the conventional treatment.

Diatomaceous earth (aka DE) only works for intestinal parasites, when given orally. It does nothing for heartworms.


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## Connie Sutherland

Kristen Cabe said:


> ... Diatomaceous earth (aka DE) only works for intestinal parasites, when given orally. It does nothing for heartworms.


Yes, that was what I read on a site about benefits of DE.

But:

I read this last night on the website of the vet who created the protocol (Dr. Gerald Wessner of the Holistic Veterinary Clinic, Summerfield, FL) (copied and pasted):

_The holistic heartworm treatment used by the Holistic Vet Clinic is three fold:
1. The heartworm nosode is used on a declining schedule from daily to 
weekly over a three month period.
2. A product called Paratox (a homeopathic complex of several remedies) is given orally or in the drinking water twice daily for 48 days.
3. Diatomaceous earth is fed in moistened food once daily for a month or 
longer. 
_

from http://www.holisticvetclinic.net/


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## Maren Bell Jones

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Perhaps they have run the gamut with uninformed local doctors? Interesting, your comment regarding resistance to dewormers. As we hear more and more stories of break through infestations despite rigid compliance with the drug company's protocol, how long will it take for recommendatioins regarding rotating different products or alternatives.


I have an interest in small ruminant medicine, though I don't know a ton about them yet, so feel free to fill in the details. But I kind of wonder if part of the reason we see more resistance in goats and sheep is because there's a wide range of protocols people follow? Like most people with dogs know you give the dewormer once a month, while the time line seems a lot more variable in small ruminants. Kind of like antibiotic resistance where you have to give the drug on a certain time line, or you encourage resistance. Just a random thought. Regarding rotating products, I'll ask a few of my professors and see their thoughts on the matter whether that would help or make it worse. That's why I like the FAMACHA approach because you use the minimum amount and encourage natural resistance to the worms through breeding stock management. 



> I try to make the most informed decisions possible for our pets and that includes considering the expertise of the breeder/handler network. For just as many google quacks, there are the same with VMD or DVM behind their name. You have to sift through the rubble to find the good ones such as Dr. John Stolz in Washington, MO. East vs. West, raw vs. kibble can get like discussing religion and I generally bail. I was actually glad David posted what he did because this has become an issue locally and we were wondering if it was isolated or more wide spread.
> 
> Terrasita


I don't find there to be nearly as many poor veterinary doctors as there is misinformation online. Just take a look at the pet section on Yahoo answers and it's downright frightening what people write back as experts or just trying to help that's just downright wrong. Both the cases that you mentioned were something that we are warned against in vet school: you get more mistakes by not looking than not knowing. We're taught a rectal palpation exam should ideally be part of every physical and certainly on middle aged males. Which would have saved the dog from needing exploratory surgery for benign prostatic hyperplasia. Even more, we're taught the importance of client education, which should have been explained in the Rimidyl case for possible side effects. I'd say veterinary medicine is in some ways better at this than human medicine, as the average patient/client/doctor contact time is about twice as high for an office visit in veterinary medicine than human medicine.

Just a general comment here (not necessarily to you, Terrasita). It's pretty disheartening to see some people on this forum constantly dissing vets. We get a lot of education in school and continuing education, but doctors are humans and make mistakes. If someone made the same sorts of comments about law enforcement officers about mistakes that are made or if someone says all cops act this way or that way, we get a dozen LEOs come in here and saw "well, you don't know the situation, you're not in our shoes, we just do the best we can." Same sort of thing, alright? Even in medicine where the stakes are high, mistakes are made. Until we have robots that can do it better than their human programmers, that's just how it is. The important thing is to learn from them and move on.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Don Turnipseed said:


> I am not familiar with the snap test your right. When my dogs were tested they showed me a sim-ple slide and pointed out the microfilaria. Woul;dn't be hard to keep such a slide handy.
> 
> Actually Maren, I made the post to see what your comments would be concerning the second half of the post regarding not having a $500+ dollar lifesaving cure done but simply continuing the heartworm treatment. Right or wrong? Or should I interpret the lack of comment


Yes, that's one of the confirmatory tests if you do indeed get a positive on the SNAP test is to look for the microfilaria in whole blood on a slide. Your vet would have to discuss treatment options as that's not something we've discussed in class yet. Getting into treatment options online with something like heartworm disease is not even something I could even get into even if I had my license already. I'd like to not lose my license before I even get it!

But good grief, Don, if you think being a vet is such a great money grab business opportunity, by all means, feel free to apply to vet school yourself. There's not a single occupation that gets into this much school debt to get this low of pay. If I wanted to make a ton of money, I'd be doing an MBA like my husband right now. Even the physicians are complaining that they aren't getting paid enough. Unfortunately for them, their average debt is just about identical, but we get paid 1/3 to 1/2 less on average, at least. :-({|= I think human medicine could learn a thing or two from vet medicine about keeping things on the cheap. Literally every day these last two semesters, we always mention which drug is cheaper and generic, which procedure is cheaper, which diagnositc test is cheaper so the client can afford it. We can't treat unless they can afford it. We are taught to offer the best treatment option first no matter what the cost, but to have a plan B.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Maren:

Its not about dissing vets. The tone conveyed in your posts is rather condescending in terms of holistic and the dog owner's ability to measure the right dose and be proactive and a participant in deciding the dog's care. I particularly like the "Dr. Google." Quite frankly if I had an MRD-1 positive dog, I'd be scared to death to give it any Ivermectin. Right now we also know that its not just sensitivity to Ivermectin but all types of drugs. I wonder if we are looking at a situation where certain heartworm medications are becoming ineffective because of parasite resistance. Its not so farfetched when you consider what goes on in other animal populations and even humans in terms of antibiotics. Furthermore my concern several years ago was that purebred dogs were dropping like flies to cancer between Ages 7-8. Every year it seems the drug company's come out with something else. Does everyone remember the 6 month heartworm and the later recall after so many deaths. There were efficacy studies that got it released but wonder of wonders, outside the laboratory setting, dogs died.

]You right now are a product of an academic environment and I understand that. The latest academic tidbits are interesting and beneficial. However, you don't have the benefit yet of of being outside of the laboratory setting. As far as the internet is concerned, please don't think that we don't have access to the same research journals that you do. In this country, the drug companies dictate care both on the human and animal side. Sure herbals nned to be addressed with the same level of seriousness as any of the drugs but they may result in perhaps greater acceptance and utilization by the system and with fewer negatives. Europe has far surpassed the U.S. in terms of stardardizing holistic treatment and products. One of my herding pals is a career lab scientist and has worked both in England and the US until she retired. She worked on a LOT of drug studies. Sometimes experiments are more subjective than objective and that's a whole other debate. 

Several years ago, one of my puppy buyers called me to say Jack was very sick--vomiting, lethargic, etc. Vet #1 said he had pancreatitis and told her not to feed him for a couple of days and gave some sort of meds . He continued to decline and she called me again. I told her that he does not have pancreatitis and get another vet. Vet #2 was a soon to be retired old army vet. He did a series of barium x-rays and found nothing. He then told her, "get his breeder on the phone and ask her what her thoughts are." I thought wow, that's different and was actually quite flattered. I told her no way did I believe pancreatitis and some of the other possibilities that had been tossed out and that I would think more of obstruction except the bariums were negative. She went back to the vet, he had her come in Friday, Saturday and Sunday [his off day] for another series of films. Wallah!!! There was the corn cob. He opened him up that day. This is another one of my good vet stories. What I hate is that he was retiring.

Terrasita


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## Nancy Jocoy

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Maren:
> 
> Its not about dissing vets. The tone conveyed in your posts is rather condescending in terms of holistic and the dog owner's ability to measure the right dose and be proactive and a participant in deciding the dog's care. Terrasita


That has been my issue all along with doctors and veterinarians. Doctors and most vets are generalists - your average vet has to have knowledge of many topics covering multiple species but a reasonably educated person doing adequate research can speak on equal terms on specific topics.


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## David Frost

I've spoken with t wo different vets, both have given the same answer relative treatment; Advantage Multi. They both stated, seperately, because of the low antigens, they felt it was the best course at this time. The Advantage would kill and microfilaria and the worm would die a natural death. Retest in 1 year. The dog's age and health both weighed into the decision. I'll go with their same, but seperate, treatment regimens.

DFrost


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## Connie Sutherland

I really REALLY get uncomfortable with the dissing of an entire profession based on our anecdotal experiences.

It IS kind of like not tolerating the broad-brush statements about LE.

I figure that the reason for the wholesale tarring-and-feathering of the vet profession on dog boards is because we as a group may deal more with vets than any other professional category. If we were a board of landlords, maybe all plumbers would be evil money-grubbing creeps.

Hmmm ..... maybe not the best example. :lol: Any plumbers here?

We don't post good (even neutral) experiences because they aren't as interesting as the bad ones. So the bad ones get all the press, and soon the perception is that that's all there are.

This is definitely a profession that costs a mint to get into and never makes up for it in income. It's nothing like MDs or even plumbers, for that matter. People don't go into it for the big bucks. If they do, they're crazy.

Remember the thread we had where I linked the cost for each year of vet school and the average vet income? What a picture that painted. NOT of money-grubbers, but of people struggling to repay student loans while setting up and running a practice and trying to keep up with the latest and greatest equipment.

It would be so great if we could take the posts for what they are: free vetspeak. We have this opportunity that's pretty much unavailable to most people, and we piss and moan about the tone in which the free info is handed out. :lol:

I'm as guilty as anyone of whining about vets in general when I talk about the shiny packages of crap-in-a-bag food in many vet waiting rooms and about over-vaccinating, but I am wrong to do it. It _isn't_ every vet, and I wish I was better at zipping my big mouth. :lol:


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## Nancy Jocoy

I really don't think we are dissing vets and sorry if it is being taken that way.


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## Anne Jones

Regarding vet school costs, student loans,left over college student loans, future income vs debt & just enough $$ to live on, forget starting up a practice of your own.....due to above, my son gave up on the lifelong dream of becoming a vet. Maren, I am happy for you that you have found a way to realize you dream!


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## Connie Sutherland

Nancy Jocoy said:


> I really don't think we are dissing vets and sorry if it is being taken that way.



Thank you, Nancy, but I meant generally. I kinda didn't used to think about that until I re-read a lot of the posts on this (and another) board while pretending that I was a vet. I started steaming out of my ears. :lol:


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## Connie Sutherland

Anne Jones said:


> Regarding vet school costs, student loans,left over college student loans, future income vs debt & just enough $$ to live on, forget starting up a practice of your own.....due to above, my son gave up on the lifelong dream of becoming a vet. Maren, I am happy for you that you have found a way to realize you dream!


I'm sorry to hear this. These were part of my own reasons, too, although a big chunk for me was that my major interests were nutrition and allergies, and I had to grab a course here and a course there to do the studying I wanted to do. Plus ... too old to even dream of making back the investment in the whole thing. :lol:


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Actually, that's what I've done in the past---take it as the latest vet or textbook--speak. I think its beneficial in terms of knowing what the current textbook or vetspeak is. Each perspective is valuable. Its not about vet bashing and the negative experiences. Geez, if I could stand to look at the insides of something [skipped disection day], I would have chose vet school. But please recognize that we as the owners are a little more saavy than what shows up on yahoo answers and that our input is valuable in terms of diagnosis and treatment. Some things warrant the western approach. Its good to have a handle on and understand those protocols. This is why I have a holistic MD for myself. I think the most effective route is integrating the two.

Terrasita


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## Connie Sutherland

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> .... This is why I have a holistic MD for myself. I think the most effective route is integrating the two.
> 
> Terrasita


Me too. My doctor went and did Andrew Weil's integrative medicine degree for MDs.

I love going in for my physical and picking her brain. :lol:


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## Connie Sutherland

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> .... But please recognize that we as the owners are a little more saavy than what shows up on yahoo answers and that our input is valuable in terms of diagnosis and treatment.
> 
> Terrasita


We are. The folks on yahoo answers aren't. :lol:

It must be tough to know that the "audience" is made up of the most and least informed and everyone in between.


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## Connie Sutherland

David Frost said:


> I've spoken with t wo different vets, both have given the same answer relative treatment; Advantage Multi. They both stated, seperately, because of the low antigens, they felt it was the best course at this time. The Advantage would kill and microfilaria and the worm would die a natural death. Retest in 1 year. The dog's age and health both weighed into the decision. I'll go with their same, but seperate, treatment regimens.
> 
> DFrost


When does the dog go for the treatment?


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## Don Turnipseed

Nancy Jocoy said:


> I really don't think we are dissing vets and sorry if it is being taken that way.


I am dissing vets, sorry. As far as the money and the debt, you could have chose a different proffession. I breed dogs and still have to work simply because I have to pay the bills. It was a personal choice....just like yours Maren. Most, not all, the vets I have dealt with tend to make the worst case scenario even out of simple stuff. I have been told they had things they didn't but it could easily be cured for $1000 bucks. Yes, I used to believe in yearly check ups and stuff. When I lost faith in the vets and quit using them, I also realized my dogs were living 2 to 4 years long than when they were going to the vet regularily. I had the heartworm treatment done on a dog once. It was after the shots given in thoise treatment, arsenic if I remember right, that it accurred to me that continuing the heartworm would still kill all the microfilaria....but the vets refuse to give you the Ivo without the treatment. I went to the feed store after that and bought my own. I live in a high heartworm area and havent had a test done in over 15 years. I start the pups on it at 4 mo. The two dogs that were diagnosed with it ran these mountains for years....just by continuing the IVO. The adult heartworm is going to die eventually, and if memory serves, that is about 1 1/2 years. Simply continuing the IVO will keep it in check.


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## Kristen Cabe

Connie Sutherland said:


> I read this last night on the website of the vet who created the protocol (Dr. Gerald Wessner of the Holistic Veterinary Clinic, Summerfield, FL) (copied and pasted):
> 
> _The holistic heartworm treatment used by the Holistic Vet Clinic is three fold:
> 1. The heartworm nosode is used on a declining schedule from daily to
> weekly over a three month period.
> 2. A product called Paratox (a homeopathic complex of several remedies) is given orally or in the drinking water twice daily for 48 days.
> 3. Diatomaceous earth is fed in moistened food once daily for a month or
> longer. _


Yes, but it's not to get rid of the parasites when used in this manner; it's more to help cleanse the toxins from the dog's body. I know of several people who take DE daily. It flushes heavy metals and other 'nasties' out quite effectively, it seems.


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## Connie Sutherland

Kristen Cabe said:


> Yes, but it's not to get rid of the parasites when used in this manner; it's more to help cleanse the toxins from the dog's body. I know of several people who take DE daily. It flushes heavy metals and other 'nasties' out quite effectively, it seems.


Ohhhh. It's meant to be kind of like soluble fiber (a "sweeping" kind of substance)?


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## Kristen Cabe

Hmmm. Not quite, I don't think. Here are some bullet points from http://www.earthworkshealth.com. I found a few of them interesting.


_Diatomaceous earth has a negative charge and bacteria has a positive charge. It is believed that diatomaceous earth sweeps bacteria out of the body by trapping it in it's honeycomb shaped skeletal form.

[It] __helps repair and maintain vital lung tissues (which is probably a good thing in the case of HW patients, b/c of the risk of pulmonary embolism, I guess)

[It] __can normalize circulation and regulate high blood pressure

[It] __can help arterial disease by strengthening the blood vessels.

[It] __has inhibitory effects on coronary diseases

[It] __can help avoiding or alleviating Alzheimers disease by preventing the body from absorbing aluminum and may flush out aluminum from the tissues. Silica can stimulate the immune system_


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## Connie Sutherland

I wish I knew this mechanism:

_can help arterial disease by strengthening the blood vessels.

has inhibitory effects on coronary diseases_

I mean for humans, of course. Dogs don't join us humans in the kind of coronary artery diseases that we have. (Their heart problems are different -- not the heart "attacks" that we have.)



I guess I will make a new Postit and add it to the "look this up" pile. :lol:


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## David Frost

The dog goes in Monday. He's still working. Dual purpose, patrol/drug. Great dog, I think I mentioned he was a GSD. I bought him from a local breeder. It's the third one I've trained from this breeder, different litters. All three have been good, just limited supply. Please don't ask me about pedigrees because I don't have a clue. I could probably find out, but it just doesn't interest me. 

DFrost


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## Connie Sutherland

David Frost said:


> The dog goes in Monday. He's still working. Dual purpose, patrol/drug. Great dog, I think I mentioned he was a GSD. I bought him from a local breeder. It's the third one I've trained from this breeder, different litters. All three have been good, just limited supply. Please don't ask me about pedigrees because I don't have a clue. I could probably find out, but it just doesn't interest me.
> 
> DFrost


I hope we can hear about his progress.

I remember after Katrina when dog people all over the country were giving funds to treat the enormous number of HW + dogs from that mess (and running wild, then being rounded up) ... the biggest problem (after raising money, even though many many vets gave their time and services, to pay for the drugs) was keeping dogs quiet.


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## Kristen Cabe

Connie Sutherland said:


> I wish I knew this mechanism:
> 
> _can help arterial disease by strengthening the blood vessels.
> 
> has inhibitory effects on coronary diseases_
> 
> I mean for humans, of course. Dogs don't join us humans in the kind of coronary artery diseases that we have. (Their heart problems are different -- not the heart "attacks" that we have.)
> 
> 
> 
> I guess I will make a new Postit and add it to the "look this up" pile. :lol:


Well, all of those bullet points came from the 'human uses' page, so...


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## Connie Sutherland

Kristen Cabe said:


> Well, all of those bullet points came from the 'human uses' page, so...


I figured.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Maren:
> 
> Its not about dissing vets. The tone conveyed in your posts is rather condescending in terms of holistic and the dog owner's ability to measure the right dose and be proactive and a participant in deciding the dog's care.


Well, hellfire and damnation, my 4 year old computer froze and totally erased my nice long reply. ](*,)

I think the majority of the problem here is not even how I'm saying it. I think the majority of the problem is that it's simply on an internet forum and people interpret tone in many ways. I've talked with a couple of folks on this forum in person or over the phone and I don't think any would call me condescending. In fact, I LOVE teaching and educating clients (teaching was my favorite part of grad school). Doing behavior consulting, I have an appreciation for listening to clients and taking a good history that a lot of my classmates don't have.

The thing is, you and I and most everyone on the forum (with maybe a few exceptions, LOL) are intelligent people. Attorneys are usually very intelligent people and I even had a spot in Mizzou's law school. I'd say I'm probably as smart as most attorneys, but I'm not going to kid myself that I can use some references and know as much as they do about the legal system. I can balance my checkbook (most of the time!) and I've got a few small investments and a Roth IRA, but I don't know as much as someone with an MBA in finance. I can work a few power tools and could make a few projects from some good directions, but I don't know as much as someone with a degree in mechanical engineering. Terrasita, I don't know what you do for a living, but I also wouldn't pressume to know as much as you do either in your field. 

It's honestly not a "I'm smarter than you, nah nah na nah nah"  kind of thing. It's simply realistic that 4 or more (with residencies, etc) years of very intensive training is not going to equal what you pick up on your own. Vets are also required (unlike physicians) to get continuing education and we've got resources like VIN.com that the layperson doesn't have available. 

There's some very experienced and knowledgeable trainers on here. Do we think they're being condescending when they answer questions in their own spare time or go cry that they *gasp* may know more than us? No, we should take that information and move on. Sometimes one just has to recognize when others may know more than oneself. That's not a bad thing!! Like you obviously know way more about herding than I do and I wouldn't be offended if I took one of my dogs herding with you and I was doing something wrong and you corrected me on it. So I've invested 5 years of post graduate education into myself and still have 2 to go. I would never EVER say I know everything nor am I even remotely close to the top of my class. But it's just reality that someone who trains with working dogs for years straight is going to know more about dog training that I and likewise, I'm going to know more about the medical side. Why everyone is offended by my "tone," I am pretty baffled.

Do I think owners and breeders should read up on what their dog has (or what they have themselves, if they need to see a physician) to benefit ther pet's health and well being? *YES YES YES.* That's wonderful!! It makes figuring out a game plan and course of action much much easier when everyone kind of knows what's going on. Anyways...

TL;DR: there's no reason to be offended by someone who knows more than you in an area. It's not an insult to your personal intelligence. Just take it and move on. :mrgreen:




Nancy Jocoy said:


> I really don't think we are dissing vets and sorry if it is being taken that way.


I really don't think I am being condescending when simply responding to questions when I could be doing oh...just about anything else with my precious summer break...how's that? :lol:


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## ann schnerre

i agree w/maren's logic (above--didn't feel like quoting the entire post). if you post a question on an internet forum, you get answers. some don't suit you, that's fine. ppl WILL do what they want--just don't kill the messenger. take what you want and go on.

maren--some day (haha) soon i may post some pics of Gracie at +1 year, plus some of the new boy. tell your DH "hi"


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Maren,

This all started with David informing of a break through infestation. People offered their treatment of choice. Kristen said she was trying what I termed an alternative method. Connie then distinguished homeopathic, alternative, etc. Then we got into references regarding Dr. Google, not involving your vet, making decisions based on yahoo answers and the like with a beginning reference that you find certain alternative/homeopathic suspect until you see efficacy studies. You admit that you don't have any knowledge of its use or efficacy or any that you would believe in along with the sarcastic references to Dr. Internet. So this is not about not being able to handle that someone knows more. I'm all for sharing knowledge and learning from others and would love to NOT have to spend hours of self educating before I have to deal with an issue with my vet. I would THINK that they knew more by virtue of their education and clinical experience and I have paid dearly for that assumption in the past. My vet is quite candid that he doesn't believe in anything holistic and won't comment on any of it. That's fine and I respect that he doesn't want to put it on the line assisting with off label dosing and alternatives he doesn't believe in or know anything about. When I need the West/drug approach, he's very good at it. When I need alternative, I drive to Decateur or wherever. He's not the least bit offended that I'll opt for the other approach and will assist with forwarding information and such anyway he can. He's been great over our 20+ year relationship with helping out with my breed rescue endeavors. We respect each other's space and we don't belittle. From day one he would get the books out, show me things under the scope, etc. 

Academics are one resource. Anecdotal experiences can be another. There was a lot of valuable info in this thread--1) drugs are becoming less effective; 2) less invasive treatments for the HW positive that are effective as evidenced by dogs living 13+ years; 3) and an alternative/homeopathic approach that's being investigated. You offered info regarding types of testing and the rate of false positive/negative and the benefit of retesting along with warnings that herbals aren't innocuous and that you consider rabies and heartworm deadly enough that you'll stick with the western approach. That's fair enough. But really, its those comments of cooked up in someone's garage [sounds like a meth lab], Dr. Google and reliance on yahoo answers that go beyond education or knowledge. You seem virtually set that you know more and you know better due to your education. Is that how its going to be with your clients---forget what you think you know or what you've read somewhere, I know better because I'm the one with the license and I'm the one that went to school?

My buddy the lab scientist has a son-in-law that's been a practicing vet for about 3 years now. It was interesting regarding what they didn't cover in vet school or what they had minimal practical experience in. We call in from time to time for the latest vetspeak and then we toss it around and decide. He humors us and we don't begrudge him his textbook point of view because that' s all he has. Good lord Sandra has raised dogs and livestock for 30 years and worked in the lab on a lot of drugs in use today. She's the first one I call when I want to talk drugs. 

But please rest assured, I NEVER have a problem with conceding that someone may have more knowledge and more experience in a given area or discipline. I love all the journal citations and textbook quotes, but if someone opts to try a different approach, that doesn't mean they are stupid or negligent.

Terrasita


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## susan tuck

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> approach. That's fair enough. But really, its those comments of cooked up in someone's garage [sounds like a meth lab], Dr. Google and reliance on yahoo answers that go beyond education or knowledge.


Actually when Maren said that part about something being cooked up in someones garage, I didn't think about meth labs, I thought about alternative medical remedies which promise to cure everything from acne to cancer, like colloidal silver and aloe vera concentrate. These substances may not kill, but can harm, if for no other reason than it delays seeking legitimate treatments, but on the other hand, maybe some people find a slight silver cast to the skin attractive. 

I don't see how anyone can be offended by Maren suggesting people don't rely on yahoo or google for medical information. I'm not suggesting you Terrasita, but it seems like many people seem to forget everything posted on the internet is not true.


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## susan tuck

Just for shits and giggles, I googled "natural cures intestinal worms dogs" and found people promise adding fresh garlic or cigarette tobacco to Fluffys dinner will cure worms. Then there are those who swear by gun powder!!!!!!!!!!!

I also just discovered on the internet that Black Walnut, Wormwood and Garlic has been known to cure Heart Worm....really?????? really??????


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## Don Turnipseed

David Frost said:


> I've spoken with t wo different vets, both have given the same answer relative treatment; Advantage Multi. They both stated, seperately, because of the low antigens, they felt it was the best course at this time. The Advantage would kill and microfilaria and the worm would die a natural death. Retest in 1 year. The dog's age and health both weighed into the decision. I'll go with their same, but seperate, treatment regimens.
> 
> DFrost


This is what I was talking about pretty much. Apparently in the years since I quit having the HW test and such there have been advances but they should have figured this out from the get go. They have also advanced to "snap tests which are apparently unreliable


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## Kristen Cabe

susan tuck said:


> I also just discovered on the internet that Black Walnut, Wormwood and Garlic has been known to cure Heart Worm....really?????? really??????


I don't know about garlic, but black walnut is the main ingredient in a couple of the natural heartworm remedies. I chose not to use any of those because black walnut is quite toxic. Actually, many of the natural products contain toxic ingredients - things we are warned never to feed our dogs, like fruit pits, hops, etc.


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## Nancy Jocoy

I think what it is for me...............there are people like Maren, passionate about their career and seeking to improve continue on but a large number of folks - I sometimes think the majority - who just slide by.

Laywers - FIVE laywers all specialists in wills, trust, and estates, in two states tell me everything is Rock Solid with the Trust and Durable Power of Attorney my parents set up. - So why am I being forced to spend thousands of dollars to get a conservatorship because oh, guess what, most financial instituitions such as IRA brokers, banks, etc don't "accept" a durable power of attorney [certain funds, by law cannot be in a trust]

Doctors, dismiss for years intense abdominal pain until my ovaries grew to the size of oranges and, due to severe, endometriosis I loose those, my uterus, and part of my intestine.

A friend goes to the hospital and is sent home after having had a hemorragic stroke. They have to put her in the vehicle to get her home. Three days later another hospital [severe vomiting] discovers the problem and it "has" been there all along.

A vet misdiagnosis as simple abcessed tooth and convinces me to spend hundreds of dollars and the dog is having sores breaking through outside the face and convincing the dog must have cancer [another vet finds this because I just did not think so, he removes the tooth and viola!]

Another vet refuses to remove a retained baby tooth - I listen - poof $800 to put braces on a tooth now poking through the roof of the mouth.

A dentist misdiagnoses a root abscess and I get treated for repeated bloody sinus infections for months despire my complaining it is a tooth issue. Eventually it is agreed upon as a tooth issue but just barely in the nick of time to *save* the biw dead tooth [if you could call it that] with a root canal instead of having to do a bridge or an implant.

Ok - I have to get ot the door but could go on and on and on. I just feel that quality is NOT the hallmark of what I see in MOST professions anymore.
Not just veterinarians and that it behooves us all to be educated on any issue we face.


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## Connie Sutherland

_"I just feel that quality is NOT the hallmark of what I see in MOST professions anymore. ... Not just veterinarians and that it behooves us all to be educated on any issue we face."_

_"... there are people like Maren, passionate about their career ... but a large number of folks - I sometimes think the majority - who just slide by."_

Interesting, and sad.

All the more reason for me to cherish the good ones. My present vet, my present doctor, Maren .... 

Sometimes I wonder what it must be like to go to law school and become a lawyer because of a love for and belief in justice and then have to endure the same snide jokes (followed by "Oh, I was just kidding; I didn't mean all lawyers") every time someone asked what I did. Or even a plumber who works hard every day and lots of nights and weekends doing some pretty brutal stuff and always hearing about how "you guys really rake in the bucks, huh?" 

I notice some of us here are pretty darned vague about our professions. :lol:


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## susan tuck

Connie Sutherland said:


> All the more reason for me to cherish the good ones. My present vet, my present doctor, Maren ....
> 
> Sometimes I wonder what it must be like to go to law school and become a lawyer because of a love for and belief in justice and then have to endure the same snide jokes (followed by "Oh, I was just kidding; I didn't mean all lawyers") every time someone asked what I did. Or even a plumber who works hard every day and lots of nights and weekends doing some pretty brutal stuff and always hearing about how "you guys really rake in the bucks, huh?"
> 
> I notice some of us here are pretty darned vague about our professions. :lol:


I feel exactly the same! When I hear of such awful experiences I figure "better lucky than good" because for almost no better reason than dumb luck, practically every vet I have ever dealt were outstanding clinicians and/or surgeons, compassionate, and honest. Same thing with human doctors.


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## Don Turnipseed

Connie, Nancy hit the nail on the head, people have to educate themselves to protect themselves from the professionals these days. I aplologise for nothing I have said about vets. I do have a good one but even then we have had to go a few rounds about padding the bill with useless tests. If I take a dog in to get and umbilical hernia fixed, that is what I want done. I don't want them carping at me about heartworm test nor do I need them trying to lay a guilt trip on me for having unneutered dogs. They are just like mechanics and everyone else....."well, you really should spend another $500 to $1000 bucks and let me replace this or that. The last umbilical hernia I had fixed I came in and they ran a $40 parvo test, added a stool collection kit and antibiotics to the bill because the dog had a loose stool. I told them for about the fifth time at this particular vets office, which was not my regular, that I just came in for a hamburger and no I didn't ask for fries.....nor do I intend to pay for anything outside the hernia. Why do they do it???? Because they usually get by with it is why. Lawyers heard all the jokes before they went to law school....probably used to tell them themselves. As far as professions, I am in my 60's and still go up and down mountainsides cutting and bucking up trees for people, I hand clear 10 to 15 acre parcels for people that want their places to look like a park. I do it because of where I live and so I can have most the day for the dogs because I am always done before lunch. Not a glamorous job by any means and yes, people think one could do better. Do I care? Not in the least because I get to do what I want when I want....including work. Do you hear me complaining about how I am not appreciated? No. I made my choices for my own reasons just like Maren and everyone else. Yes, I went to college and was going to be an CPA. Now I cut trees for $30 an hour and pay my accountant $150 an hour....but I am home, cleaned up and swimming puppies at the lake by noon.


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## Connie Sutherland

susan tuck said:


> I feel exactly the same! When I hear of such awful experiences I figure "better lucky than good" because for almost no better reason than dumb luck, practically every vet I have ever dealt were outstanding clinicians and/or surgeons, compassionate, and honest. Same thing with human doctors.


Me too. I have run across a few of the very bad, but not even close to the number of very good. Like everything, there are good and not so good. Someone has to finish at the bottom of the class. :lol:


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## Don Turnipseed

Connie, I forgot to add this past occupation....I am a journeyman level plumber. Only did that so I would have an occupation to fall back on if being self employed didn't cut it. Quit within a month of reaching journeyman level and struck out on my own. Thought that might be more amusing than the previous post.


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## Kyle Sprag

This is why it is VERY important as the consumer to do your own research, get a second opinion etc..... It IS you Right!

The internet makes this much more Easy then it use to be, in the past you would need to spend Days at a Library to find info it takes 30 mins in a Google search.





Nancy Jocoy said:


> I think what it is for me...............there are people like Maren, passionate about their career and seeking to improve continue on but a large number of folks - I sometimes think the majority - who just slide by.
> 
> Laywers - FIVE laywers all specialists in wills, trust, and estates, in two states tell me everything is Rock Solid with the Trust and Durable Power of Attorney my parents set up. - So why am I being forced to spend thousands of dollars to get a conservatorship because oh, guess what, most financial instituitions such as IRA brokers, banks, etc don't "accept" a durable power of attorney [certain funds, by law cannot be in a trust]
> 
> Doctors, dismiss for years intense abdominal pain until my ovaries grew to the size of oranges and, due to severe, endometriosis I loose those, my uterus, and part of my intestine.
> 
> A friend goes to the hospital and is sent home after having had a hemorragic stroke. They have to put her in the vehicle to get her home. Three days later another hospital [severe vomiting] discovers the problem and it "has" been there all along.
> 
> A vet misdiagnosis as simple abcessed tooth and convinces me to spend hundreds of dollars and the dog is having sores breaking through outside the face and convincing the dog must have cancer [another vet finds this because I just did not think so, he removes the tooth and viola!]
> 
> Another vet refuses to remove a retained baby tooth - I listen - poof $800 to put braces on a tooth now poking through the roof of the mouth.
> 
> A dentist misdiagnoses a root abscess and I get treated for repeated bloody sinus infections for months despire my complaining it is a tooth issue. Eventually it is agreed upon as a tooth issue but just barely in the nick of time to *save* the biw dead tooth [if you could call it that] with a root canal instead of having to do a bridge or an implant.
> 
> Ok - I have to get ot the door but could go on and on and on. I just feel that quality is NOT the hallmark of what I see in MOST professions anymore.
> Not just veterinarians and that it behooves us all to be educated on any issue we face.


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## susan tuck

Kyle Sprag said:


> This is why it is VERY important as the consumer to do your own research, get a second opinion etc..... It IS you Right!
> 
> The internet makes this much more Easy then it use to be, in the past you would need to spend Days at a Library to find info it takes 30 mins in a Google search.


I agree, the internet can be a wonderful tool (barring doctors google and yahoo :-$) and 2nd opinions are not only a safeguard for us, but for medical professionals too. People do have to take more responsiblity - but then many in the medical profession have been asking us to do this for years.


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## Kyle Sprag

susan tuck said:


> I agree, the internet can be a wonderful tool (barring doctors google and yahoo :-$) and 2nd opinions are not only a safeguard for us, but for medical professionals too. People do have to take more responsiblity - but then many in the medical profession have been asking us to do this for years.


 
Yes, the liscensing agencies have been asking the public for years to take a more active roll in their Healthcare but there is still significant Blow Back from segments of the Medical Community. The older generation tends to be more trusting and polite with these issues. Even something as basic as Advanced Directives and Informed Consent are lacking. Sad, I have been working in Hospitals since 1986 and OMG the stuff I have seen.

Just this morning I was trying to guide someone through the Healthcare Maze.


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## David Frost

I used to be among those that heavily criticized the medical profession, particularly the insurance companies. Well, no longer. After my wife's ordeal, 3 surgeries, 18 chemo treatments, 38 radiation treatments and she's still here and relatively healthy. The cost of all that was in excess of $400,000. I won't work or live long enough to pay back the insurance company for what it cost them. Add to that my recent bout with cancer and heck; Doc tells me I need to howl at the moon every night at midnight, listen for me. ha ha

Seriously, sometimes I think we have to believer there are still physicians and veterinarians that really do care.
DFrost


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## Gerry Grimwood

David Frost said:


> Seriously, sometimes I think we have to believer there are still physicians and veterinarians that really do care.
> DFrost


Yes there are, too bad sometimes you have to be a certain age to appreciate that fact, the same people that criticise the cost probably don't have any problem justifying their own paycheck.


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## Tina Rempel

My current dogs and cats doctor, and whole staff, are great and really care. They are the best for general health. I have and will use a specialist for hip/elbow x-rays I want to send for any certification work. They have recommended an alergy specialist for my one dog. They call in an ultra sound specialist for my pregnant bitch (the couple times I did breed her).

My current mules doctor is also wonderful. Thank goodness he loves mules!

I didn't find the perfect fit right away for my animals veterinary care. But wouldn't trade either of these guys and dread the day they retire or move.


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## Becky Shilling

> I don't find there to be nearly as many poor veterinary doctors as there is misinformation online.



I highly recommend spending some time in an emergency practice that sees all the day vets' cases that "go south" at night. QUITE the education on "most" vets are good. SOME are quite good, some are O.K. as long as you're dealing with commonalities and some are a hazard to animal health.


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