# Fur Saver collar?



## Karen M Wood (Jun 23, 2012)

From what i understand to compete in Schn with your dog you need to be in the ring with a Fur Saver collar on the dead ring. Can someone please tell me why the Fur Saver is the prefered collar for trailing? And to what if any advantages it has with your dog?
Since i have an American Bulldog. She barely has much hair to save. Much less then a rottie but a tad more then a boxer.
Personally it's just another thing to weigh dogs my dog tool bag.
Thanks
Karen


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## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

I don't use regular chokers on my dogs, I use fur savers. Love them, but not for "saving fur"... the longer links give a much more clear snappy sound vs the quick blurred together sound of the small links on a regular choke. I don't use prong or ecollar much, when I do it is not for mondio stuff, all fur saver, well worth the $ to have around and use. Only thing to keep in mind is that with a dog that has a white neck you may want the curogan collar unless you don't mind grey staining on the fur.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

FCI Rules:
http://www.fci.be/circulaires/55-2011-annex-en.pdf

Collar requirement / Carrying a leash

"......this includes that the dog is to always have a collar on. The judge, therefore, must maintain a visual check that this is the case at all times. The choke collar may not have spikes, claws or other hooks. It must be worn loose. So-called flea/tick collars must be removed prior to the trail.The type of choke collar, especially in regards to its weight, may not deviate from the normal marketed products. If suspicion arises, then the judge can request that the collar be changed. This, however, must take place prior to beginning the phase. If suspicion also arises as to fraud in view of a spiked collar orthe like, the judge will disqualify the handler from further testing.."

In addition the UScA rulebook states it needs to be a single row chain collar, no leather, nylon, pinch or remote collars. Lead when attached must be to the dead ring.

We all just use fursavers because we personally prefer them to regular choke chains, and it's tradition too. I haven't used a regular choke chain in literally decades.


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## Karen M Wood (Jun 23, 2012)

I have never worked with a fur saver yet. I've used regular chokers, extra small pinch and martingales. 
And yes my dog does have a white neck. So I'll be taking your advice on the finish of the collar.
The only chain i've ever used that cut the hair was a show choker with a very tight (Snake) link. That sucker will snap the hairs off almost as good as my grooming shears. I've used these other style collars for 18 years and never had any problems with them.
I just see the rules state that you need a fur saver in IPO type trailing.
Thanks
K


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## Karen M Wood (Jun 23, 2012)

ok so the curogan collar seems to be running for about $27.00. Is that fair pricing? Do you guys have a prefered site to order this product? Since i only have one dog i just need the one collar. And I'm also in the market for a reflective dog vest for when i bike my dog, because it's still too hot to bike her during the day. So we usually go in the early evening around dusk. 
Thanks again for your help.


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## Jessica Kromer (Nov 12, 2009)

I pay $28.95 for the 27" Brass 4mm Fur Saver from Ray Allen.... 

Same size in Chrome would be $12.95 but I like the brass look on my black dog.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Susan said
"We all just use fursavers because we personally prefer them to regular choke chains, and it's tradition too. I haven't used a regular choke chain in literally decades."

Ditto on that and never on anything but the dead ring.


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## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

Yes the curogan is more expensive but if you don't like the grey ring it is worth the extra $. The stainless, chrome, and matte versions all stain the hair of a white dog. I buy most of my stuff from EliteK9, but look at Signature K9, and Ray Allen also.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Who told you a fursaver is specified in the rules? It's not.


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## Karen M Wood (Jun 23, 2012)

My eyeballs because i have yet to see any dog working with a standard choke in trialing. So far every photo i see is a fur saver unless they are training and then it's a fur saver and a pinch collar together on the same dog. (I'm talking hundreds of different dogs of different breeds in training) So if the fur saver is the way to go then i'm fine with getting one.
Thanks guys.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Here we go again - fur savers, choke collars, chain collars, etc.

For IPO, the rules are clear:

a chain collar:

http://www.sporthund.de/de/Halskette-Edelstahl-3mm-Gliederstarke-7411139M.html

can be used as a choke collar or, to comply with IPO / Schutzhund rules the same collar must be either fastened directly on the last two links, or, fastened back a link or two.

With my first dog, a Landseer, about twice my weight, I used the chain collar but not on the dead zone when I was out with him. At trials, even national, it was clear, on the dead zone. The dog was controllable with verbal commands in time but I automatically used the "choke". This is what I learnt at the first dog club.

However, at a seminar, when I was called out to "play a sequence in dog handling", I represented my thoughts on the chain on choke and was informed that the chain on the dead link was more efficient - read the dog was called to attention more quickly - than on the choke chain which would require a few seconds more before he felt the "pain".

Some people are proud that they use flat clollars (which btw could be twisted to shut off the dog's air supply), some use prong collars, sharpened or blunt, and are criticised for this, some use e-collars and are nearly damned for this. 

The thing is, one uses what one deems suitable for the dog and oneself. Some dogs learn quickly to obey vocal commands, some need longer. Some people are not as competent as others and need physical aids.

LET'S BE HONEST

None of us is perfect but all of us are capable of learning or have learned.

Maybe this is all off topic but if I read about anyone claiming "brownie points" for good behaviour towards their dogs by using a canine collar in a humane method, I think I will puke or advise them to join Jehovah's Witnesses.

Geez, do I feel better now\\/


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Karen M Wood said:


> My eyeballs because i have yet to see any dog working with a standard choke in trialing. So far every photo i see is a fur saver unless they are training and then it's a fur saver and a pinch collar together on the same dog. (I'm talking hundreds of different dogs of different breeds in training) So if the fur saver is the way to go then i'm fine with getting one.
> Thanks guys.


I posted a link to the FCI rule for collars at trials. What do your eyeballs tell you when you read the actual rule regarding collars at trials? Same thing with the USA rulebook the word "fursaver" is not to be found, just single link chain collar.

From the USA rulebook:

"During the trial the dog must be exhibited with a chain collar in the neutral position with the lead attached only to the dead ring. Only single-row chain collars are permitted. The collar may not have spikes, sharp points, prongs or other hooks. The collar must fit loosely around the dogs neck. Leather, nylon, spke, pinch or remote training devices are not permitted in a USA sanctioned event. "Flea and tick" collars and tags are to be removed...."

"The composition of the metal collar, especially in regard to weight should not deviate from the customary design. If the judge suspects manipulation by the handler, he can demand a change of collars. However, this must take place before the beginning of the trial phase. If the judge suspects intent to deceive (concealed prongs for instance) the judge must disqualify the participant fro the rest of the trial....":

We use fursavers because we WANT to, we PREFER them, not because we have to.


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## Mario Fernandez (Jun 21, 2008)

One way not have to worry about the fur saver stain on white dogs. Is to paint the fur saver and then after drying spray a clear coat.


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## Karen M Wood (Jun 23, 2012)

ok so as a newbie to Sch if i showed up at a trial with my dog and a standard choke chain, i wouldn't be shamed for having the wrong equipment? I know opinions can be harsh if you show up at the wrong place with the wrong tools.

Mario, how long would the spray paint last? I've never had a problem with the regular choke discoloring the dog's fur in the past as they are only on while training. Nothing but a flat buckle stays in the dog to hold their ID tags.
Thanks again for the info.
K


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## Mario Fernandez (Jun 21, 2008)

Last me 3 years or so. Kept the fur saver on the dogs 24/7. Fur saver would get nicked a bit wit the while the dogs were in their kennels. A re touch here and their. Never get confused which collar belongs to which dog. 

I would like to say it was done to prevent the staining of my AB but in reality a friend gave me the fur saver. We were training on his field . His dog was equipment wise, so he decided to take all the collars off right their on the field. After training he decided to mow his field and ran over the fur saver, did some damage to his law mower. After that all his equipment have bright collars on see he can see it in the grass. His daughters painted some fur saver with glow in the dark paint and looks cool at night.


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## Karen M Wood (Jun 23, 2012)

I had an incident years ago with my male Am Bull and his mother. i took the dog for a walk, and when i came back i needed to run a quick erron. So i just took off the leash and put him in the house. 
Well like most pups he started playing with his mom and somehow she got her bottom jaw twisted up in his chain. My pops was home when it happened and he tried to untangle the dogs. But they were too panicked. He tried cutting the chain with pliers but the steel was good and they would not cut. Finally he managed to crush the big circle link you attach the leash to and finally got them untangled. Luther had stopped breathing. Pops had to do CPR to get him started again. Ivy had some very bad bruising on her jaw.
So even though i knew better i nearly killed my puppy. So i never leave a training collar of any sort on a dog i'm not standing there next to. 
But i think i will just look into the non fur staining style.
Thanks guys.
K


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Karen, that same thing happened on a flat collar with my neighbors dogs. It started with them horsing around and then escalated into a fight. I am not sure if that's what cause the fight or if it happened after it started.


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## Karen M Wood (Jun 23, 2012)

At least with a flat collar you could unsnap it, cut it, the dogs might break it. But chain has no give. 
My stupid dogs grab each other by the collar and drag each other through the house. So i keep them on plastic snap buckles. When training with a flat i use leather with a metal buckle. 
I'll be getting a fur saver soon.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Karen M Wood said:


> ok so as a newbie to Sch if i showed up at a trial with my dog and a standard choke chain, i wouldn't be shamed for having the wrong equipment? I know opinions can be harsh if you show up at the wrong place with the wrong tools.
> 
> Mario, how long would the spray paint last? I've never had a problem with the regular choke discoloring the dog's fur in the past as they are only on while training. Nothing but a flat buckle stays in the dog to hold their ID tags.
> Thanks again for the info.
> K


"SHAMED"??????

Anyone who would "shame" a newbie for a stupid thing like using a perfectly acceptable chain collar, slightly different from the norm is an asshole, and the only thing shameful would be the asshats piss poor behavior.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> "SHAMED"??????
> 
> Anyone who would "shame" a newbie for a stupid thing like using a perfectly acceptable chain collar, slightly different from the norm is an asshole, and the only thing shameful would be the asshats piss poor behavior.


I love Susans tacked and way with words :-D


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Here we go again - fur savers, choke collars, chain collars, etc.
> 
> For IPO, the rules are clear:
> 
> ...


Another great post!!!


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

I honestly don't get what the big deal is. I have a typical fur saver collar. I bought a cheap one from the pet store when I started out for about $10, now I have a nicer brass coloured one as well that I bought from a vendor at a trial because it was pretty and I like how it looks on my Mali.

I use the fur saver when I trial, which is not often. Sometimes I remember to put it on my dog when I train. Same with my trial leash - shorter and thinner, not for everyday use, just for competition. I have lots of equipment that doesn't get much use, but I still have it for when I need it.

I think the point of the specifying a fur saver is so that everyone in the trial is using the same equipment - something that is easily seen and hard to modify to make more effective.

I have never seen anyone trial in a standard choke chain, but then again, I haven't checked every competitor. If you are really opposed to buying a fur saver, why not just ask the judge at the next trial you attend if a regular choke would be acceptable?


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## Ingrid Rosenquist (Mar 27, 2006)

Speaking of painting - I powdercoated mine 


fursaver glitter by ingridnbuck, on Flickr


Frost 9-3 by ingridnbuck, on Flickr


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## Leslie Patterson (Mar 6, 2008)

Nice Ingrid! I like the powder coating, does it last?

I don't know if anyone already said this but I think the new rules allows leather collars for BH.


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## Karen M Wood (Jun 23, 2012)

Actually i'm not opposed to buying one at all. i just wanted more info on the product and some feed back on the pros and cons of this style collar. In 18 years of regular obedience and agility i've aquired all sorts of dog stuff. Whats one more piece? Should last for many years and even through a few different dogs. 
Right now I'm working Payne with a pinch. And in agility with a plain flat nylon collar. But as i transition to the trialing type collar when we start gearing up for our BH, I want her to be use to the new fur saver.

And the powder coating looks great, what better paint job for a dog with an interesting paint job itself. 
K


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## Ingrid Rosenquist (Mar 27, 2006)

Leslie Patterson said:


> Nice Ingrid! I like the powder coating, does it last?
> 
> I don't know if anyone already said this but I think the new rules allows leather collars for BH.


Yes, so far it has lasted on mine. I make dog collars as a side business and I will say though that the powder coating does rub off where the snap of the leash rubs against the D-ring on them so I imagine the same would be for the O-rings on the fursaver. With that said, neither the O-rings or the individual links have shown obvious wear on my fursaver.


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## Taryna Mitchell (May 13, 2010)

I may have to try the painting idea! I have one that's in his fursaver full time and he has the dreaded gray ring around his neck. Now I just have to figure out what color would look good on white.


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## Karen M Wood (Jun 23, 2012)

Ok new question about fur saver. Personal preference do you like the short link or long link? I see 2 styles available and i'm not sure which is getting better reviews from dog handlers. Feedback is much appricated.
Thanks
Karen


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## Elaine Matthys (May 18, 2008)

I'm sorry, but I can't think of a more useless piece of equipment than a fur saver collar. You can't really use it as a correction collar and you can't get it off if it gets caught on anything. At least with a regular choke chain, you can use it for correction if you want and then put it on the dead ring to trial, and then remove it after use.

I do have a fur saver and the only time it's ever on my dogs is at trial.

As for your question of short or long links, all I've ever seen people use are the long ones.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Karen M Wood said:


> Ok new question about fur saver. Personal preference do you like the short link or long link? I see 2 styles available and i'm not sure which is getting better reviews from dog handlers. Feedback is much appricated.
> Thanks
> Karen


 
You can get your fingers caught in the long link fur savers pretty easy, not sure about the short link. I have to take great care when playing with my boxer for this reason. I haven't snapped any fingers off yet, though.

Maybe stick with a regular chain collar though, since it's authorized in the rules. Showing my dog, I don't really care what people think when I show up as I will most likely know the rules better than them anyway, through reading the rules and asking questions to people more knowledgeable than I. If you don't read ALL the rules, you can't have any expectations of doing well. 

By the way, bulldogs rock. everyone who has one knows it, and herder people don't want everyone to find out. shhhhhh.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Karen M Wood said:


> Personal preference do you like the short link or long link?



Short links are the bomb. If you have you use it for a correction in training or in real life outside of a trial scenario they have a lot nicer action than the long link any day.


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## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

Can't correct with a fursaver? Wonder what I've been doing with them this whole time....

I have long and short link, I like the short link better than the long link for my dogs,the action is much smooither. Also as Dave mentioned fingers can get caught in the long links and it can smart. With the short links never had that problem.


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## Elaine Matthys (May 18, 2008)

You get a very poor correction with a fur saver, which you have found and that's why you prefer the shorter links. By actually going with a real choke chain, you get a fast, smooth correction. I must say that I know people that have put spikes on the fur saver and use it that way. 

So far as I can see, these fur savers are mostly decoration and a place to attach your leash. They are very popular in the SchH community and I don't see the attraction.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Elaine Matthys said:


> You get a very poor correction with a fur saver, which you have found and that's why you prefer the shorter links. By actually going with a real choke chain, you get a fast, smooth correction. I must say that I know people that have put spikes on the fur saver and use it that way.
> 
> So far as I can see, these fur savers are mostly decoration and a place to attach your leash. They are very popular in the SchH community and I don't see the attraction.


(say this in a victoria stillwell voice) " I can't believe in this day and age you would use a choke chain over a pinch collar or e-collar"...

You want a faster correction, it would seem that you should skip to a pinch or E-collar.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

the original Q's didn't apply to me :
Can someone please tell me why the Fur Saver is the prefered collar for trailing? And to what if any advantages it has with your dog?
.... and i had stopped reading this thread after it got into the powder coated versions, etc

but since it has morphed into what gives the best correction.....

doesn't a lot of this depend on what kind of corrections the dog has already been conditioned to, just as much as the collar type ?

...reason i ask, is because i often double collar a dog when i am first evaluating it to try and see which one is best to use for that particular dog
...i walk it in a high distraction area with a flat collar and fur saver chain choker with a lead on each, and see how the dog reacts to tension and corrections with each. usually the dog will tell me a lot that way, especially if you vary the speed and intensity that the lead tension is applied, and if corrections are used to see if you can get the dog to simply redirect and "check back in" rather than buck when "faster" corrections are applied with each type

or would this just be a waste of time for the corrections being referred to in this thread ? .... just curious if double collars/leads are ever used by any of you guys/gals

funny story (somewhat) related to this ...
saw a trainer with a customer working with their gsd a couple days ago
- the owner had a short lead to a flat collar
- the "trainer" was trailing with a much longer lead to a prong
the gsd was a puller 
- as the trio passed by from my right to left the owner "kinda" looked liked the owner was walking her dog in a semi heel position 
- the trainer behind her was CONSTANTLY popping the dog....in less than 100ft the dog had received at least 30-40 pops with the prong (i lost count)

later i saw them sitting down having coffee ... i was DYING to ask the trainer about how many pops does it usually take before the dog learns the heel position ?
fwiw, this was the same female trainer who did a "psd demo" a few summers ago when her dog wouldn't engage and take a sleeve on a stage from a distance of about 30ft. .... which she told the audience was because it was so hot and humid that day


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

My understanding was that fur savers or chain collars on the dead ring are used when trialing because they are typically not the effective correction collars most trainers use and thus, can be a safety precaution while not being a crutch that causes the dog to maintain obedience because he is still wearing a correction collar. In PSA, the fur saver/chain collar is used in the PDC and PSA1. Once the dog passes those levels, it's expected that the team has at least a basic level of obedience and it's safe to allow them to move on and trial in the off leash portion of the PSA1 or in the upper levels. I have seen dogs get dismissed after the on leash portion of the PSA1 because it was clear, without a leash, the handler would not be able to maintain control over the dog.

As far as what is better for a correction, except with the most extrememly sensitive dogs or highly reactive dogs that might respond to a correction with aggression, I never use fur savers or chain collars for training corrections. In my opinion, the correction is not effective in most cases. Most dogs learn they can pull against the collar and when you are able to give an effective correction, it's usually so severe that trachea damage is a concern. With a prong collar, I can tailor my corrections accordingly and never have to use enough force that injury is a concern. If I have a sensitive dog, I correct lightly. If I need more, I can pop a little harder, but never do I have to correct near as hard as I would have to if a fur saver or chain collar was used on the same dog. In my opinion, the epitome of a proper correction is a sharp-enough-to-be-effective stimulus that is applied as quickly as possible after the infraction and released just as quickly. Maybe I'm slow, but I always feel my corrections are just a little off with fur savers and chain collars ...partly because there needs to be a little slack in the collar to get an effective "pop" and taking up that slack creates a little delay and partly because I have to use more force to create an effective correction and it creates a longer action in my movement. I liken a corrective correction to setting a hook when fishing. I have to give a little to get the proper action to create the "pop." With a prong, this is almost imperceptible. With a fur saver/chain collar, it's more noticeable.

Personally, I hate fur savers and chain collars for training. I will use them on an already trained dog when I'm in places the dog must be on leash and during trialing when it's required. I try to maintain the mindset, however, that if I need to correct my dog on a fur saver or chain collar to prepare for a trial, my dog is not well trained enough. I should be able to go out without a leash and collar and perform to the same level as I do with my trial lead and fur saver. It's just a decoration at that point to adhere to the rules and show the judge that my dog has the obedience to progress to the next level.


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

rick smith said:


> or would this just be a waste of time for the corrections being referred to in this thread ? .... just curious if double collars/leads are ever used by any of you guys/gals
> 
> funny story (somewhat) related to this ...
> saw a trainer with a customer working with their gsd a couple days ago
> ...


I only use double collars if I have an aggressive dog that I'm concerned may redirect aggression towards me when I correct him or if I need a flat collar to allow the dog to pull sometimes but also want to be able to correct (e.g. during protection work where I want to apply back pressure with a flat collar but correct for the out with the prong). In these instances, one collar is either a flat or fur saver/chain collar and the other is the prong. I can't really think of an instances where I've used a flat collar and a fur saver/chain collar on the same dog at the same time.

I'm curious, what were you trying to imply with the anecdote about the trainer with the GSD? It seems to me, the corrections were not effective. If the corrections weren't effective on a prong, I doubt she would have had more success with a fur saver or chain collar. In my opinion, she needs to create a more effective correction or backtrack and re-teach the dog proper heel position so the dog understands where he's supposed to be and thus, knows where to be in order to avoid being corrected.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

what was funny to me about the story was that the owner was doing nothing but walking holding a lead. the TRAINER, who was trailing behind was doing the constant lead yanking on the prong to keep the dog in "heel position"
...who knows what the dog was thinking...but the constant prong pops had zero effect on controlling it

it was obvious the owner was proud that her gsd could "heel" and had NO clue what was going on. the trainer was NOT training anything imo, and that's why i wanted to ask her how many pops does it normally take for the average dog to learn something from this technique
...so the story wasn't a matter of collar selection; just an example of some pretty stupid double lead "handling", and i'm using the term VERY loosely in this case 

fwiw, i do use prongs for a lot of dogs too .... was only wondering if other trainers ever evaluated how different collars effect the dog when they first work with it by using more than one. i always see how different collars effect the dog, especially if the owners have very little control of the dog and have been pulling like hell on the lead and using the lead as their only "training" tool ](*,)](*,)

...i guess they don't


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## Karen M Wood (Jun 23, 2012)

Thanks guy.
I'm just getting one for when i trial (So i blend in with the rest of the teams) I think that the smaller link is going to be better for me because i have small fingers and do not want them caught in the links. Going with the copper colored short link for my red and white bulldog. Right now i'm training with a pinch and a regular choke to get her use to the feeling of both and then soon to fade the pinch. As she is really starting to understand what it is we are doing. 
Thanks for all the comments and suggestions.

(Ho yeah American Bulldog do rock!) I could never live with a herder after working with so many.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

rick smith said:


> .... just curious if double collars/leads are ever used by any of you guys/gals


In a general context yes they are. If you are asking from the perspective of evaluations - I haven't any idea. I am not qualified to evaluate dogs in any kind of meaningful way.


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## Elaine Matthys (May 18, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> (say this in a victoria stillwell voice) " I can't believe in this day and age you would use a choke chain over a pinch collar or e-collar"...
> 
> You want a faster correction, it would seem that you should skip to a pinch or E-collar.


Most people don't use a choke in general training. The only issue is that you HAVE to have a chain collar on at a trial, both for IPO and AKC obedience. By using a choke chain, you can actually use it for minor corrections during warm up right before you go in the ring or on the field.

I promptly remove my choke chain after a trial, but many people leave their fur savers on all the time which is a safety hazard.


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## Elaine Matthys (May 18, 2008)

You can tell I've been competing way too long as I keep forgetting you can compete in obedience with a flat collar on. You can't give any corrections with a flat collar either which is why I still use a choke chain.


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## Ingrid Rosenquist (Mar 27, 2006)

You can also use martingale collars in AKC obedience. I have friends who have always used martingale collars that are nylon with exception of the "action" portion which is chain on their dogs in the obedience ring.

For myself it depends on the dog. My bitch who is working towards her UDX/OTCH has always competed on a flat collar and has only had a fursaver on when competing for her BH. Unlike my males, she is more sensitive and does not require much more than verbal corrections in training. 

But to answer the original question - I prefer the small link fursaver although I have used the larger link fursaver on my males when competing in Schutzhund. Primarily because I am too cheap to buy another fursaver


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

_Originally Posted by rick smith 
.... just curious if double collars/leads are ever used by any of you guys/gals_

I double collar with a prong. I've seen enough of them come apart, and often at the wrong moment, to not trust them. My prong is almost always clipped to a second collar.

I will stack whatever collars I think I might need on my dog, especially in protection. Fursaver, flat, prong, e-collar, martingale, could be any of them.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Has anyone used the Leerburg prong collar lead? That's the one with a leather lead with two snaps, one on a prong collar and a longer tab hooked to a dominant dog or fur saver collar as a safety precaution.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Elaine Matthys said:


> Most people don't use a choke in general training. The only issue is that you HAVE to have a chain collar on at a trial, both for IPO and AKC obedience. By using a choke chain, you can actually use it for minor corrections during warm up right before you go in the ring or on the field.
> 
> I promptly remove my choke chain after a trial, but many people leave their fur savers on all the time which is a safety hazard.


I was being sarcastic (hence the victoria stillwell voice). People use what works for them and what they know. YOU can't give a correction on a flat collar or a fur saver. don't include the rest of us in what you can't do. The world would be a lot different if everyone had your ability and no more or less...

It does sound as if you have competed for too long, though....You probably have some good info, the shame of it is with your know it all attitude, it would be hard for me to get past you telling me what I can and can't do (which you are obviously wrong about) to learn anything from you.


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## Karen M Wood (Jun 23, 2012)

I've made the order and should have my shiney new Curogan collar in the mail sometime next week.
Thanks again for the input.
Karen


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## Elaine Matthys (May 18, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> I was being sarcastic (hence the victoria stillwell voice). People use what works for them and what they know. YOU can't give a correction on a flat collar or a fur saver. don't include the rest of us in what you can't do. The world would be a lot different if everyone had your ability and no more or less...
> 
> It does sound as if you have competed for too long, though....You probably have some good info, the shame of it is with your know it all attitude, it would be hard for me to get past you telling me what I can and can't do (which you are obviously wrong about) to learn anything from you.


What, you were being sarcastic?! No kidding! I'll be sure to let you know when I want you to learn anything from me as I've clearly been around too long to have any patience with anyone that can say they can give collar corrections with a flat collar with a straight face. I'd sure like to learn from you exactly how that's done ](*,)


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## Elaine Matthys (May 18, 2008)

Karen M Wood said:


> I've made the order and should have my shiney new Curogan collar in the mail sometime next week.
> Thanks again for the input.
> Karen


It's always fun to get new stuff


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Elaine Matthys said:


> What, you were being sarcastic?! No kidding! I'll be sure to let you know when I want you to learn anything from me as I've clearly been around too long to have any patience with anyone that can say they can give collar corrections with a flat collar with a straight face. I'd sure like to learn from you exactly how that's done ](*,)


I wouldn't have answered, but you said you didn't have patience for me saying I can give a flat collar correction with a straight face.

Can you see my face? It's rarely straight. It's a little spooky with the technology available now to think that you might be sitting in a room somewhere, stalking my every move through cameras, and iphones, etc, while I am typing. 

Then you went on to say that you'd like to learn exactly how that's done. Well, now you've contradicted yourself by not having the patience, and yet asking how it's done.

And I'd like to answer anyway.

A correction is a correction is a correction.

It's how the dog perceives it, not you. Something that is negative to them, and something done to decrease the liklihood of a behavior. 

Attach your leash to the ring on the flat collar. Pop it similar to how you might on your choke chain, and see what results you get. If you are strong enough, or the dog is weak enough, you should be giving a correction.

I have seen people with strong dogs that can't give an effective correction with a prong collar. There are dogs I am sure I couldn't touch with a prong collar correction. Like I said. The correction is all related to how the dog understands the stimulus, not YOU.

You still want to stick with your belief that a correction can't be given on a fur saver too?


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Elaine Matthys said:


> ...I've clearly been around too long to have any patience with anyone that can say they can give collar corrections with a flat collar with a straight face. I'd sure like to learn from you exactly how that's done ](*,)


This is curious to me. Do you mind structuring that thought a bit differently so that I may understand you better? It's currently working for me with the dutch so either I'm not really accomplishing what I think I am or you might be mistaken about whether or not this can actually be done. Better yet, I could be taking what you said too literally. Since it was presented as a statement of fact or came off that way, I really can't be sure.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I can give a correction with my mind... :-o:-o...so can David Frost I bet...sometimes I find myself raising my hand involuntarily while going about my business...


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> A correction is a correction is a correction.
> 
> It's how the dog perceives it, not you. Something that is negative to them, and something done to decrease the liklihood of a behavior.
> 
> ...


Exactly!!! 



Joby Becker said:


> I can give a correction with my mind... ...so can David Frost I bet...sometimes I find myself raising my hand involuntarily while going about my business...


Yes that is what is called "speak to the hand!" =;


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

It is kinda stupid to say you cant give a correction on a flat collar or any type of collar. you can give corrections with no collars, or with any collar.

Would be a lot better to say that a certain type of collar might not be the ideal physical corrective device for certain dogs, or for certain things...or for certain people....


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re: "Would be a lot better to say that a certain type of collar might not be the ideal physical corrective device for certain dogs, or for certain things...or for certain people...."

EXACTLY Joby =;=;=;=D>

- which is why i like to try different collars on a dog when i first get it 
- which is why i will almost ALWAYS go back to a flat collar even if the owner has been using a prong and an Ecollar nearly 24/7
- which is because most people are just plain LAZY when it comes to selecting the right collar for the right situation; training or not

..... because when looking for the right tool; it's much easier to just reach in and grab that big ole crescent hammer ](*,)

anyway .... when do we get the explanation for why you can't give corrections with flat collars, and btw, would a rolled leather collar make any difference here, or would that be considered "flat" too ? //lol//


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

My two GSDs have *never* had anything on but a flat leather or fur saver. Most of their training has been off lead. The oldest one will be 9 next month. 
It's not about the equipment, it's about the dog understanding YOU.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Nicole Stark said:


> This is curious to me. Do you mind structuring that thought a bit differently so that I may understand you better? It's currently working for me with the dutch so either I'm not really accomplishing what I think I am or you might be mistaken about whether or not this can actually be done. Better yet, I could be taking what you said too literally. Since it was presented as a statement of fact or came off that way, I really can't be sure.


I could!!

I twisted a flat collar on my dog to prevent him jumping our fence and prevent him from attacking a dog who was about to jump the fence from the outside.

If you twist it hard enough you can cut off the air supply!


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