# "Re-directed" biting



## Travis Ragin (Apr 10, 2010)

Is this cool with some people?

Seen this word mentioned now and then since I've been on the internet....some people seem to gloss over this and treat it as an acceptable(and inevitable) part of having a dog trained to bite humans on command,is that true?


.........seems like a nice, innocent and "whitewashed" word to describe a dog that literally just bit the hand that feeds them.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Travis, no it is not cool. 

Though it can happen with some dogs that are highly frustrated in high drive. Nothing to really to whitewash over, depending on the situation, I am not even really sure that it is a conscious decision by the dog.

My dog has done this, I can remember 2 times clearly, maybe there was one other, the dog was youngish (younger than 2) at the time, and both that I remember happened while the dog was on a tie-out, while working on targets... Neither time did I have holes in my *leg*.

I also do remember her trying to tag me another time in the arm, after being hooked up on the tie-out, when I was leaving the "circle", that time was more deliberate I think.

I think mine is an odd case though, as I have always taken bites myself from this dog, even into adulthood, against the breeders advice, as it was told to me that to do so with this particular dog, could lead to problems. Although it was not cool, it was not a big deal to me either, in the big scope of things, as it occurred in less than 1% of the times she has been worked. 

I have have had a few other dogs that have done this in the past as well on occasion.

It also can happen occasionally if 2 dogs are fighting, and someone sticks their hands in there. That has happened to me before, with dogs other than this one.


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

My 9 month old snaps at anything, not aggressively, just a reaction she has when excited. She jaw pops when excited, and often snaps my legs, or any object near by. It's just a puppy thing for her, so I'm not concerned, but its not cool and we are working on it.

She also has a bad issue with grabbing anything i pick up. Working on this issue too, but she is so damn fast she gets my hand often. She is much better, just super reactive. 

She isn't doing any bite work though, just fun tugs and playing with the puppy sleeve, so this may not be what you are talking about.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I've always had a firm fast rule; You do not bite the hand that feeds you. That said, I also like to think I'm smart enough to not stick my hand in a running meat grinder.

DFrost


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

I find it quite entertaining when a dog bites there owner. Especially when said owner does nothing about it.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Travis Ragin said:


> Is this cool with some people?
> 
> Seen this word mentioned now and then since I've been on the internet....some people seem to gloss over this and treat it as an acceptable(and inevitable) part of having a dog trained to bite humans on command,is that true?
> 
> ...


Are you talking about youngster dogs spazzing out in frustration or grown up dogs who should know better?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Daniel Lybbert said:


> I find it quite entertaining when a dog bites there owner. Especially when said owner does nothing about it.


I can agree with this in some cases, but it is not really humorous if the handler is not equipped to deal with it, such as an inexperienced person, or if there is a serious injury.

One time I saw a guy do a recall off a bite with his dog, and the dog came back and layed into his rearend, and held on...that was funny...


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## Travis Ragin (Apr 10, 2010)

_*"youngster dogs spazzing out in frustration" 

"highly frustrated in high drive"


*_I would say that these terms fall into the category of whitewash.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Travis Ragin said:


> _*"youngster dogs spazzing out in frustration"
> 
> "highly frustrated in high drive"
> 
> ...


Can you elaborate? 

When I've had youngsters spazz out, I don't ignore it, I very quickly correct them, so that they get the message it's not acceptable. I've not had this issue continue into adulthood so I can't speak to the issue of adult dogs who redirect.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

susan tuck said:


> Can you elaborate?
> 
> When I've had youngsters spazz out, I don't ignore it, I very quickly correct them, so that they get the message it's not acceptable. I've not had this issue continue into adulthood so I can't speak to the issue of adult dogs who redirect.


yes please do elaborate. what do you mean by whitewash, and how does it apply here?

it is a fairly common thing that can happen, and it is usually caused by frustrated dog in high state of drive, that is a definition, not a whitewash..

1:53
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9siVtZyeE7k


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> it is a fairly common thing that can happen, and it is usually caused by frustrated dog in high state of drive, that is a definition, not a whitewash..


Yes it can happen. But if the handler explains to the dog that it's in his best interest not to bite him, it tends to only happen once. Those people that whitewash the situation tend to have this bullshit happen time and time again. In most cases, anything after the first bite is a sign of poor handling, training and or common sense.

And I also like to see people get bit by their own dogs. Nothing funnier in dog sport.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> Yes it can happen. But if the handler explains to the dog that it's in his best interest not to bite him, it tends to only happen once. .



I really like your explanation. 

DFrost


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Thunder came at me *ONCE *when he was 8-9 months old. I didn't have a marker training idea for that so I made sure it didn't happen again. It didn't! :twisted:


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## Travis Ragin (Apr 10, 2010)

susan tuck said:


> Are you talking about youngster dogs spazzing out in frustration or grown up dogs who should know better?


I was replying while in a rush & after reading both of your replies....can I take that back?


I was WRONG....you did not whitewash anything,and you clearly do not try to whitewash!!!




Your comments have me thinking that we are actually very much on the same page......I just don't make much of a distinction between the 2 examples you gave,that's all.

As I see it,if you have a young dog/pup and he decides to "redirect"?.....well at *that moment* you let the young dog/pup you know you aren't happy about it....and then at *that moment *he automatically *turns into* a dog who should know better! There is no going back to puppy excuses once this respect is established[-X


,
t


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## Tony Hahn (May 28, 2011)

Here are a couple questions for the OP (or anyone)- 

There situations such as the one described where the dog returns to the handler and bites his butt, where it is clearly obvious that the dog knows damn well what he is doing and whom he is biting. 

On the other hand, in the case of a "redirected bite" where the dog is fighting either another dog or a person and nails you when you grab him or pull him off the other dog, enter his peripheral vision, choke him off the sleeve, etc., how do YOU know that the dog knows he biting you before he tastes/feels it's you?

How do you correct a dog for something, anything, unless the dog understands #1- what he did, and #2 unless he is in control of the action?


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Tony Hahn said:


> Here are a couple questions for the OP (or anyone)-
> 
> There situations such as the one described where the dog returns to the handler and bites his butt, where it is clearly obvious that the dog knows damn well what he is doing and whom he is biting.
> 
> ...


In my opinion, when a youngster spazzes, redirects and bites his handler, it's not a case of him not being able to control his actions, it's more like a tantrum reaction. 

If it were a case of the dog not being able to control himself, an immediate correction would do little to stop the behavior, rendering the correction unfair and pointless, but I have found that when a youngster redirects and gets slapped immediately for it, he stops doing it. The dog learns very quickly that if he bites his owner there is an unpleasant consequence. 

I do the same thing if a youngster "accidentally" tags me on the hand when we are playing with a ball or a tug. It's poor targeting for which he learns there is an unpleasant consequences, so he learns quickly to target better.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re: "accidentally" tags me on the hand when we are playing with a ball or a tug. It's poor targeting for which he learns there is an unpleasant consequences, so he learns quickly to target better."

... certainly not in your case Susan, but in MANY cases the "poor targeting" is poor presentation of the target and the HANDLER should be corrected not the dog 
..... i see this ALL the time with pet owners learning how to let their dog bite and target a tug or ball, but i'm SURE the same thing happens with working dog owners too 

..... just different strokes 

imo, dogs have more "targeting" skills than we give em credit for sometimes ... if you give em your hand, they deserve to take it 
(i show it in advance with gloves because they don't realize how easy it is to do when they are swinging around)


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Tony
different types of "redirected bites" imo

if it's fighting a dog you should know up front it's possible and take precautions if/when you decide to make it a threesome 

if it's gripping a person (in training) it's probably a result of a BAD foundation and you need to back up and regroup, not correct the snot out of the dog...unless that's how you train


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

dogs are different, some mature much quickly than others. Some are much more aggressive than others, some get into state of aggression much quicker.

I chose the slapping method, it did not work the first time. It worked the second time, concerning the redirect. It took a fight and a chokeslam on another occasion, when the dog actually "came at me" due to a harsh correction...

Dog has not repeated either behavior since....

to say it will be taken care of the first time, everytime, is kinda specific to that person/dog.

For me the first re-direct was not that big of a deal, (or the second one really, as they were small tags to the leg, didnt even rip my pants). I chose not to take a harsh route with the young dog, and it did happen again. in the end it was still not a big deal for me, and was taken care of.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Tony Hahn said:


> On the other hand, in the case of a "redirected bite" where the dog is fighting either another dog or a person and nails you when you grab him or pull him off the other dog, enter his peripheral vision, choke him off the sleeve, etc., how do YOU know that the dog knows he biting you before he tastes/feels it's you?
> 
> How do you correct a dog for something, anything, unless the dog understands #1- what he did, and #2 unless he is in control of the action?


Which is why I made the comment about learning not to stick my hand in a meat grinder. The dog needs to be corrected in some manner for not "outing". 

DFrost


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> to say it will be taken care of the first time, everytime, is kinda specific to that person/dog.


I didn't say it will be taken care of everytime. I said, if you immpress upon the dog that it's in his best interest not to bite you. Obviously you failed to impress. Your failure was not a failure of the method, it was a failure of execution of that method. :razz:


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> I didn't say it will be taken care of everytime. I said, if you immpress upon the dog that it's in his best interest not to bite you. Obviously you failed to impress. Your failure was not a failure of the method, it was a failure of execution of that method. :razz:


Oh yes, I was not referring in any way to your comment actually, but I guess you were saying the same thing as the person I was responding to, but I agree 100% with your assessment in my case. 

It took a little more to make the impression than I gave at that time.


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## Travis Ragin (Apr 10, 2010)

Turner and Hooch they were not






http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/_ylt=Aivn5W...vcnNzMDE-/RS=^ADAcPnrtokuWfjJGEEDnF_vr0UrkFE-

*Oakland County K9 officer shots police dog after it attacked him*

* 7:34 PM, June 7, 2012 | 
 14 Comments*








* By Bill Laitner

Detroit Free Press Staff Writer *



An Oakland County K9 officer fatally shot his own police dog today when the 5-year-old purebred German shepherd attacked him after recently showing signs of aggression, according to a news release.
The incident occurred at a veterinarian’s office, where the sheriff’s deputy had taken Gunner, who had been a member of the county’s K9 unit since 2007, the release said. 
The deputy, a 23-year veteran of the department and 5-year police dog handler, took Gunner to the vet to explore “options available to curb his aggression,” police said. But while the deputy and the veterinarian were trying to attach a leash to the dog, Gunner leaped “in a biting lung” toward the deputy’s face, and he blocked the dog with his forearm, the release said. 
According to the release, the dog refused commands to let go of the deputy’s forearm and continued to aggressively bite until the deputy used his weapon to protect himself from additional injury. The deputy was transported to a nearby hospital, where he was admitted for his injuries, the release said. 
The deceased dog was transported to Michigan State University for a necropsy. 
“This is an extremely sad situation,” Oakland County Sheriff Michael Bouchard said in a written statement. “These dogs are more than a police asset. They are beloved members of the department and the handler’s family.” 
_Contact BILL LAITNER: 313-223-4485 or [email protected]_






*View Comments (14)* | *Share your thoughts »*


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

rick smith said:


> re: "accidentally" tags me on the hand when we are playing with a ball or a tug. It's poor targeting for which he learns there is an unpleasant consequences, so he learns quickly to target better."
> 
> ... certainly not in your case Susan, but in MANY cases the "poor targeting" is poor presentation of the target and the HANDLER should be corrected not the dog
> ..... i see this ALL the time with pet owners learning how to let their dog bite and target a tug or ball, but i'm SURE the same thing happens with working dog owners too
> ...


I landed in hospital because "teasing my Briard" with the tug before putting him in the box ready for his next exercise turned out wrongly - I was too slow. #-o


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

Travis Ragin said:


> Turner and Hooch they were not
> 
> 
> *Oakland County K9 officer shots police dog after it attacked him*


Without knowing the entire situation this looks really bad. The handler had been a dog handler for 5 years and the dog was 5 yrs old. Sounds like this might have been this guy's only dog. If you have a dog 5 yrs, and I'm assuming at leaset 2.5 - 3 yrs on active patrol duty, something like this should never happen. Maybe they'll find a brain tumor or some hormonal imbalance or something. I hope so for the officer's sake.

After a few years together, there should be enough trust, training and respect so that this never happens. My gut reaction is poorly trained dog and poor handler or well trained dog ruined by a poor handler.

But that could be unfair to say with out really knowing more. Still.. this does not look good at all for a police department of K9 teams in general.

I'd also question the use of the gun. Especially in a vet office. No other choice? Baton? Taser? Mace? I know K9's are tough to physically overpower and control but I'd probably allow myself to be ripped apart before I'd shoot my own dog. No retreat possible at any point? (and yes, I've taken hits by trained K9's).


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Seriously, with the handler, vet present, and surely technicians, there was no way to control the dog other than shooting it? BS.


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## Travis Ragin (Apr 10, 2010)

julie allen said:


> there was no way to control the dog other than shooting it?



I'm thinking this has been the problem for about 5 years


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Travis Ragin said:


> I'm thinking this has been the problem for about 5 years


Actually the article states in the first few sentences the aggression started recently.

But biting in a vets office is not a re-directed bite.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Why would it take two people to put his leash on--one a stranger. You get nutso aggression with off thyroids as well. I don't think you can judge the officer too harshly. Dog bites can result in disabling injuries. What happens when he comes off the arm and goes for his throat. It really does sound like some weird kind of rage.

T


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