# For you Sch folks



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/forum/68348.html

New rules and gayness.


----------



## Kevin Walsh (Sep 8, 2009)

I like this one...Clarification on terminology, then terminology misused:

_Protection
The term “stick hits” is no longer used. Instead it is called the “stick pressure test”. In deference to the Swiss where the kennel club banned “stick hits” in trials. It is better for us to change our words than to completely lose a very important part of our test for our breed.

There are 5 stages in the bite exercises in protection work 1) initiation (when the helper attacks), 2) pressure (drive and *stick hits*), 3) transition (the short time after the helper has stopped but before the out), 4) out, 5) guarding._


----------



## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Thanks jeff.


----------



## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Chris Michalek said:


> Thanks jeff.


HAHAHAHAHA dude I started choking from laughing so hard


----------



## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

I like most of it..... less emphasis on full grip and more on physical fight.... hate that hanging dogs get more points than a fighting dog because they have full grip.... stupid.

Like the emphasis on the distance for the back transport.... always drives me nuts to see a team a mile back.. should be right on top of the helper.

Also like this...

Heeling with the head turned up the way the Malinois frequently heel is not a natural body posture for German Shepherds and cannot be graded excellent.

Not sure why not excellent as opposed to no point deduction.....


----------



## cindy graffam (Nov 4, 2010)

Picture of what the 'new' head position will be? The heeling excersize....Also comments on the 70 as passing working score? How does that 'improve' the breed?

cindy


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

cindy graffam said:


> Picture of what the 'new' head position will be? The heeling excersize....Also comments on the 70 as passing working score? How does that 'improve' the breed?
> 
> cindy


A score of 70 in protection will be sufficient to allow for progression to the next level. (E.g. if you get a score of 70-70- 70~ 210 in Sch 1; you will be able to enter Sch2.) However to qualify for a Korung the dog must still have at least 80 points in protection.


----------



## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

I think its more like the "old" head position/ look before the current became popular after the malinois started dominating. Not that different just not as twisted and contorted. Hopefully this has the wording adjust to include all breeds to be judged per breed and not just the gsd.


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

I don't see any of the changes adding to the pusscification of Schutzhund as a spot. I see nothing added to it to make it any more valuable as a test for our breed other than trying to weed out some of the shyster judges in Germany
Me personally I ain't liking the escape bite thing. I have always keep my dogs in a sit long before it was fashionable in the long bite as a demonstration of my control over my dog.


----------



## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

What happened to having high scores to qualify or advance to the next level? 

70 and 80 seem, well, just average. Not trying to offend anyone, just asking.


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Carol Boche said:


> What happened to having high scores to qualify or advance to the next level?
> 
> 70 and 80 seem, well, just average. Not trying to offend anyone, just asking.


Looks to me like there trying to make getting a Schutzhund titel a bit easier for people that have no intention of breeding the dog. 
You must have a score of 80 or better to get a Kore rating a dog must have a Kore rating to be bred by SV standards. I hope that makes sense.


----------



## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Looks to me like there trying to make getting a Schutzhund titel a bit easier for people that have no intention of breeding the dog.
> You must have a score of 80 or better to get a Kore rating a dog must have a Kore rating to be bred by SV standards. I hope that makes sense.


It does make sense, thanks Mike. 

Just still seems that 80 is average......I mean they tend to think of themselves as this "better the breed" group, and then they accept a score as low as 80? That is what doesn't make sense to me.....


----------



## Kristin Countryman (Oct 13, 2010)

I dunno I am new so the only part that would affect me, at this point, would be the BH stuff, but I don like that they cut the sit and down in motion. I really like these parts of the test. Hopefully all goes well at our trial in December and it won't matter!


----------



## Denise Picicci (Sep 9, 2007)

While a majority of the propsed new rules are a joke, I do like the article change. They have increased points for the articles, before if the dog did not indicate any articles it still could pass.


----------



## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Looks to me like there trying to make getting a Schutzhund titel a bit easier for people that have no intention of breeding the dog.
> You must have a score of 80 or better to get a Kore rating a dog must have a Kore rating to be bred by SV standards. I hope that makes sense.


Just asking so don't get deffensive, so what this is saying if a dog doesn't have a title it means by SV which I presume is SCH then a dog is not worthy of breeding?


----------



## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Denise Picicci said:


> While a majority of the propsed new rules are a joke, I do like the article change. They have increased points for the articles, before if the dog did not indicate any articles it still could pass.


If its a article search and the dog doesn't indicate then how can you pass a dog for no finds when there is obvious finds to be found?


----------



## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

I think the dog head position should always be at the man he is intended to protect from and not gazing into the handlers eyes JMO.


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Carol Boche said:


> It does make sense, thanks Mike.
> 
> Just still seems that 80 is average......I mean they tend to think of themselves as this "better the breed" group, and then they accept a score as low as 80? That is what doesn't make sense to me.....


Score don't make make a dog breed worthy, score alone don't make a dog breed worthy. Schutzhund titles don't make a dog breed worthy.


----------



## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Harry Keely said:


> Just asking so don't get deffensive, so what this is saying if a dog doesn't have a title it means by SV which I presume is SCH then a dog is not worthy of breeding?


Something like that from what I gather. The dog needs a working title like Sch1, Korung, and hip x-rays to be considered "breeding quality". 

What I found on that because I can't remember.
Körklasse - Breed Survey class (Kkl1 or Kkl2) In order to be breed-surveyed a dog must have a SchH, HGH or IPO title, must also have approved hips, pass an AD, and have a show-rating of G or better.

KKL1 - especially recommended for breeding
KKL2 - still good for breeding


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Harry Keely said:


> Just asking so don't get deffensive, so what this is saying if a dog doesn't have a title it means by SV which I presume is SCH then a dog is not worthy of breeding?


Correct
They have to have a pedigree, passable show and Kore rating, good hips,elbows with a history and a qualifying scoring Schutzhund title.
Doing it this way the show people can charge more for there pups if there selling to the people who are uneducated about the breed or just choose to ware blinders. (just a little editorial) Or it provides a venue or means for people sport or work to show there dogs and people with a understanding of whats being presented in front of them to gather information and make some assessments about the dog good bad or otherwise.
As flawed as it is the SV system still provides a means to have a look see at the German Shepherd dog. 
If considering buying a German Shepherd dog I suggest at the very least buy from someone who is breeding the SV way so you have some sort of a reference or base line to educate your self.


----------



## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Ashley Campbell said:


> Something like that from what I gather. The dog needs a working title like Sch1, Korung, and hip x-rays to be considered "breeding quality".
> 
> What I found on that because I can't remember.
> Körklasse - Breed Survey class (Kkl1 or Kkl2) In order to be breed-surveyed a dog must have a SchH, HGH or IPO title, must also have approved hips, pass an AD, and have a show-rating of G or better.
> ...





Mike Scheiber said:


> Correct
> They have to have a pedigree, passable show and Kore rating, good hips,elbows with a history and a qualifying scoring Schutzhund title.
> Doing it this way the show people can charge more for there pups if there selling to the people who are uneducated about the breed or just choose to ware blinders. (just a little editorial) Or it provides a venue or means for people sport or work to show there dogs and people with a understanding of whats being presented in front of them to gather information and make some assessments about the dog good bad or otherwise.
> As flawed as it is the SV system still provides a means to have a look see at the German Shepherd dog.
> If considering buying a German Shepherd dog I suggest at the very least buy from someone who is breeding the SV way so you have some sort of a reference or base line to educate your self.


No disrespect but to each there own that means pretty much all the people that are breeding Dutch dogs are wrong ( I don't think so ). But hey thats fine people are entitled to there own way of thinking and deciding whats good and whats not. For sure a title doesn't justify breeding. No disrepect people just my feelings on that.


----------



## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

I'm just stating the fact part, not my opinion Harry. Don't you think if it was that all important to me, I'd have remembered it? lol

Personally? I could give a flying f*ck less about a show rating. I'd rather see good hips and working titles, because, as we've all heard before "pretty doesn't make a working dog". I gathered this opinion after seeing the 2010 Sieger show "protection" phase. It was bad, really bad...and these are the VA dogs, top of the barrel that will be bred, yet even being a complete novice I was rather disgusted with their "protection" abilities.


----------



## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Riddle me this? How do I know that schutzhund is the most important sport in the world?


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Harry Keely said:


> No disrespect but to each there own that means pretty much all the people that are breeding Dutch dogs are wrong ( I don't think so ). But hey thats fine people are entitled to there own way of thinking and deciding whats good and whats not. For sure a title doesn't justify breeding. No disrepect people just my feelings on that.


You didn't even come close to disrespect were talking about dogs. 
Holland is a small place what they do and how they do it is common knowledge in the KNVP community ethics and views are very different there than here.
How how many first hand years of knowledge do you have with KNVP Dutch dogs or generations how many years combined experience with in a 25 mile radius of ware you live is there. How do you test your dogs who tests your dogs how do you know how the other dog are tested and what sorts of temperaments them dogs bring with them.
How the KNVP dogs are bred is apples to oranges no need for paper. Don't fool your self if you think Americas can breed and maintain this dog like they do in Holland.
One thing for sure titles alone don't matter just one small piece to of the process.


----------



## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Please, not yet another thread turned into "Do titles matter for breading?"](*,)

Seems a lot of changes, some will be a pain to re-train, others not much of a problem.

I wonder why they changed the foots step count from 30 to 15 following motion exercises?

I find the Pre-Sch, opps I meant Pre- IPO 1 a little weird, I guess it will help young dogs/ handlers get some trial experience.

Over-all I find it a step in the right direction.


----------



## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Edward Egan said:


> Please, not yet another thread turned into "Do titles matter for breading?"](*,)


Nope, i don't need a title for "breading" - my chicken comes out great usually...

 Just giving you a rough time. I agree, I don't want to see it re-hashed because just like before, it's not going to go anywhere.


----------



## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Edward Egan said:


> Please, not yet another thread turned into "Do titles matter for breading?"](*,)



It matters to me


----------



## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Denise Picicci said:


> While a majority of the propsed new rules are a joke, I do like the article change. They have increased points for the articles, before if the dog did not indicate any articles it still could pass.


Did I read it wrong? not going back but I thought it said it would still pass just not with an SV score?


----------



## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Harry Keely said:


> If its a article search and the dog doesn't indicate then how can you pass a dog for no finds when there is obvious finds to be found?


Interesting ive never heard that perspective. A more familiar one is the importance is getting to the end.... the articles are dropped and found as an aid to the team that they are on the right track.... if it were more realistic lol....here its for points....


----------



## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Harry Keely said:


> I think the dog head position should always be at the man he is intended to protect from and not gazing into the handlers eyes JMO.


I'm pretty sure it was referring mainly to B, as in C its as u describe

Sorry I just realized u weren't training in Sch. B is obedience, C is protection.


----------



## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Ashley Campbell said:


> Nope, i don't need a title for "breading" - my chicken comes out great usually...
> 
> Just giving you a rough time. I agree, I don't want to see it re-hashed because just like before, it's not going to go anywhere.


Breading, breeding, I prefer "HOT"


----------



## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Edward Egan said:


> Breading, breeding, I prefer "HOT"



Dude, you and I both!


----------



## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Mike Scheiber said:


> You didn't even come close to disrespect were talking about dogs.
> Holland is a small place what they do and how they do it is common knowledge in the KNVP community ethics and views are very different there than here.
> How how many first hand years of knowledge do you have with KNVP Dutch dogs or generations how many years combined experience with in a 25 mile radius of ware you live is there. How do you test your dogs who tests your dogs how do you know how the other dog are tested and what sorts of temperaments them dogs bring with them.
> How the KNVP dogs are bred is apples to oranges no need for paper. Don't fool your self if you think Americas can breed and maintain this dog like they do in Holland.
> One thing for sure titles alone don't matter just one small piece to of the process.


Oh I agree 100% that theres no comparison to the dutch breeding, I give that to them hands down. We can use there dogs but as far as comparison there is absolutely no one that is a tied match on there ways of producing.

As far as my area of 25 miles I agree and thats a joke Mike. For the longest time i was the only one with personal ( non LEO ) KNPV dogs. Now there is a very nice gentleman about a 1.5 hour drive from me and hes the only one right now with a titled KNPV dog because as of right now I don't own a titled one, just 2 dutch line genetics dogs. So point taken Mike another words I agree.


----------



## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

tracey delin said:


> Interesting ive never heard that perspective. A more familiar one is the importance is getting to the end.... the articles are dropped and found as an aid to the team that they are on the right track.... if it were more realistic lol....here its for points....





tracey delin said:


> I'm pretty sure it was referring mainly to B, as in C its as u describe
> 
> Sorry I just realized u weren't training in Sch. B is obedience, C is protection.


Gotcha on the whole part B & C gig, I'm know I'm not a master but do know some about sport :lol:, On the tracking part dont the dogs platz on the find so isn't that a part of the track also including somebody dragging there feet through high bruss or grass. I understand your point and maybe confused on my part but I just don't see how a dog can pass a article / track test and not indicate on one article because if I read right theres three on a very short track thats laid right in the broken area of the dragging feet. Matter of fact don't you have to wave it in the air so the judge sees the dog has found it.


----------



## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Harry Keely said:


> Gotcha on the whole part B & C gig, I'm know I'm not a master but do know some about sport :lol:, On the tracking part dont the dogs platz on the find so isn't that a part of the track also including somebody dragging there feet through high bruss or grass. I understand your point and maybe confused on my part but I just don't see how a dog can pass a article / track test and not indicate on one article because if I read right theres three on a very short track thats laid right in the broken area of the dragging feet. Matter of fact don't you have to wave it in the air so the judge sees the dog has found it.


(EX) Bad guys runs from house into woods, dog team arrives in area, does search then track. Bad guy dropped his hat, took off his coat and through it and dropped his knife. Dog tracks him and doesn't indicate on any dropped items, but nails bad guy and successful track/apprehension. 

I think that is what they are talking about, but then with points....


----------



## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Jody Butler said:


> (EX) Bad guys runs from house into woods, dog team arrives in area, does search then track. Bad guy dropped his hat, took off his coat and through it and dropped his knife. Dog tracks him and doesn't indicate on any dropped items, but nails bad guy and successful track/apprehension.
> 
> I think that is what they are talking about, but then with points....


Well thats what I am figuring she means that there trying to relate a sport to a real life application. But then they should throw the items off to the side of the broken trail or and not train for OK sch1 this many turn this many paces, sch 2 blah blah, sch 3 etc.... It should be a free lance track. Which they don't have to do and I understand its a sport but it sounds like those three articles are put there for a reason and they have the dog have a passive alert. So the dog doesn't hit on any but still passes. I get what your saying I'm just wondering if thats what shes saying. Not looking to argue but am more curious because just like real application with changes theres changes with sports so just wanting some clarification.


----------



## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Harry Keely said:


> Well thats what I am figuring she means that there trying to relate a sport to a real life application. But then they should throw the items off to the side of the broken trail or and not train for OK sch1 this many turn this many paces, sch 2 blah blah, sch 3 etc.... It should be a free lance track. Which they don't have to do and I understand its a sport but it sounds like those three articles are put there for a reason and they have the dog have a passive alert. So the dog doesn't hit on any but still passes. I get what your saying I'm just wondering if thats what shes saying. Not looking to argue but am more curious because just like real application with changes theres changes with sports so just wanting some clarification.


 
I think thats what she meant, not sure though


----------



## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Jody Butler said:


> (EX) Bad guys runs from house into woods, dog team arrives in area, does search then track. Bad guy dropped his hat, took off his coat and through it and dropped his knife. Dog tracks him and doesn't indicate on any dropped items, but nails bad guy and successful track/apprehension.
> 
> I think that is what they are talking about, but then with points....


Yes exactly, and ideally there would be find (person) at the end..... and no in a trial you are supposed to walk normal no feet dragging. There is an open field search and a search through smoke offered but not in the Sch 1-3 they are seperate titles see the dvg website I think they are called RH if memory serves?


----------



## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

They should get rid of the term "grip", no opposable thumbs = no grip. Call it "bite"


----------



## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Score don't make make a dog breed worthy, score alone don't make a dog breed worthy. Schutzhund titles don't make a dog breed worthy.


I agree 100% (but there are quite a few people who have jumped on the "that dogs not titled so why did you breed it?" bandwagon).....so why drop the scoring to lower numbers? (forgive me if this was asked....I was gone yesterday and today and have not read the rest of the thread yet)


----------



## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Carol Boche said:


> I agree 100% (but there are quite a few people who have jumped on the "that dogs not titled so why did you breed it?" bandwagon).....so why drop the scoring to lower numbers? (forgive me if this was asked....I was gone yesterday and today and have not read the rest of the thread yet)


Technically it hasn't dropped, just removed the requirement of 80 in protection of a SchH 1 to trial for a SchH 2. Not really sure why.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

If something needs 80 to pass, and you make it 70 to pass, TECHNICALLY you have lowered the requirements. Duh. What a dumb statement that was.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I should add that 70 is LOWER than 80. That is where the lowering of requirements thing came in.


----------



## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> If something needs 80 to pass, and you make it 70 to pass, TECHNICALLY you have lowered the requirements. Duh. What a dumb statement that was.


Read the rules Jeff, 70 does pass, under current rules, you need 80 to trial for SchH2,


----------



## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Edward Egan said:


> Read the rules Jeff, 70 does pass, under current rules, you need 80 to trial for SchH2,


Which leads us back to my original question....why are the number so low? Seems just average numbers to me. Why don't they have it in upwards of like 90 to 95 to title?


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Carol Boche said:


> Which leads us back to my original question....why are the number so low? Seems just average numbers to me. Why don't they have it in upwards of like 90 to 95 to title?


The same reason that 70 was passing in school and not 90
If you want to be on the honor roll you have to have a better GPA 
If you want to be on the podium you need better schutzhund scores. it's NOT a 70 or 80 in protection that earns a title.
It's a passing score in ALL Three phases at the same trial.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Read the rules Jeff, 70 does pass, under current rules, you need 80 to trial for SchH2,

Re read what I quoted, and tell me that is not retarded.


----------



## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Thomas Barriano said:


> If you want to be on the honor roll you have to have a better GPA


Oh, I get it....so you have to have a good dog that will do the work.....not just an average dog that is forced to do the work???:razz:


----------



## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Read the rules Jeff, 70 does pass, under current rules, you need 80 to trial for SchH2,
> 
> Re read what I quoted, and tell me that is not retarded.


Maybe, maybe not. 70-70-70 passes, but does not allow you to trial at the next level, 70-70-80 would. Is that simple enough for you?


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

You mean stupid. You should switch sports, so you don't have to quote retarded rules.


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Carol Boche said:


> Oh, I get it....so you have to have a good dog that will do the work.....not just an average dog that is forced to do the work???:razz:


Carol,

To earn a title the dog needs to earn a minimum number of points in all three phases. Nothing to do with good dog or bad dog.
Nothing to do with if it wants to work or is forced to work.
Any dog that earns the points, gets the title.


----------



## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> You mean stupid. You should switch sports, so you don't have to quote retarded rules.


Maybe they were concerned you'ed feel that way and that's why they changed it to 70-70-70 allows you to trial at the next level.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

No thanks, I am enjoying my struggles in Mondio too much to go all gay and start that ****** heeling pattern. Besides, I have seen the Sch helpers struggle to catch slow dogs. No need to run the little helpers off the field on a stretcher.

Of course, you don't have that worry, now do you. HA HA


----------



## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> No thanks, I am enjoying my struggles in Mondio too much to go all gay and start that ****** heeling pattern. Besides, I have seen the Sch helpers struggle to catch slow dogs. No need to run the little helpers off the field on a stretcher.
> 
> Of course, you don't have that worry, now do you. HA HA


OK Jeff, you win.


----------



## Julie Blanding (Mar 12, 2008)

Please keep in mind, just because a dog has a low protection score it doesn't mean it is a average or less than average dog. A LOT of points of lost because the dogs are a bit out of control.... not that I would know anything about that.


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Julie Blanding said:


> Please keep in mind, just because a dog has a low protection score it doesn't mean it is a average or less than average dog. A LOT of points of lost because the dogs are a bit out of control.... not that I would know anything about that.


Hi Julie,

If I had a dollar for every critique where I heard "bothers the helper" "slow to out" "forges on the back transport" etc. etc.
with my SchH III Dober girl Dubheasa Germania I'd be rich.
I had Willie Pope give her a 67 Pronounced once, which pretty much tells the story


----------



## Julie Blanding (Mar 12, 2008)

Thomas I hear ya! There is a reason my dog is SchH2 3 times LOL


----------

