# Who's the trainer



## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

Curious question for all, stimulated by someone on another post saying that person isn't the trainer. What constitutes being "the" trainer? Is one person the trainer being the handler? I honestly can't think of anyone I know training without someone else involved. For example in sport dogs you almost always need someone else, in tracking, protection for sure. Now I've worked with lots of people & their dogs to obtain titles & most often received some credit as helping them train their dogs, although I never said I trained their dog even if sometimes I felt I did #-o So I would like to hear some other thoughts or opinions which may be words without thought. Maybe it's just semantics? #-o


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## Lee May (Jan 8, 2012)

Very good question. It does take a team to get here you want to be with your dog. Sport, PP etc. You as handler/trainer should have full trust, ability and control of your dog. You should be able to read your dog pro's and con's correct where needed. But you will be nothing without a great decoy/ helper also trainer to bring you & your dog out to full bloom. You can't have one with out the other. Good post!!


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I think the trainer(s) is/are the one(s) who are bringing the training knowledge used to teach the dog.

I have seen some situations where the handler is just that, the handler. They have someone coaching them every step of the way, without that person(s) they wouldn't be able to get the dog past the basics. This is what some groups with a training director are like, although some of the people may have a higher level of training ability beyond the basics, they defer to the training director in training related decisions, or their level of expeience is such that without the training director they wouldn't get far. In these situations IMO the TD is the trainer, the others are handlers, decoys/helpers, etc.

Other situations there is one or more person involved in the training of the dog, but they all bring a level of knowledge required to take the dog past a basic level and to a level where it can compete, perform a job, etc. Training is more of a mutual decision, there isn't one specific person in charge of all the training. In this situation I think each person can be considered a trainer.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

If the owner is telling the decoy what he wants done? Then the owner is the handler and trainer. If a decoy or Training Director is telling the owner what to do the majority of the time? Then the TD/decoy is the trainer. If someone is giving advise and both have input into training decisions? Then it's a team effort and both are trainers.


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

I think it's best if it's a team situation. If you have a training director he/she should at least be consulted with on any training decisions. A lot of trainers have a sense of pride when the dogs they train reach milestones (titles, etc) and they should. However, I feel that the handler needs to be an advocate for his dog. No one knows that dog better than the handler, or at least should as they spend a lot more time with that dog. The handler may have a better feel for what may or may not work, providing they've picked up some knowledge. I'm fortunate that I have a trainer that listens and is not stuck in one particular way. I've heard stories that others aren't so lucky. 

Ultimately I think the success or failure lies with the handler though.


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## kerry engels (Nov 7, 2010)

Brett Bowen said:


> I think it's best if it's a team situation. If you have a training director he/she should at least be consulted with on any training decisions. A lot of trainers have a sense of pride when the dogs they train reach milestones (titles, etc) and they should. However, I feel that the handler needs to be an advocate for his dog. No one knows that dog better than the handler, or at least should as they spend a lot more time with that dog. The handler may have a better feel for what may or may not work, providing they've picked up some knowledge. I'm fortunate that I have a trainer that listens and is not stuck in one particular way. I've heard stories that others aren't so lucky.
> 
> Ultimately I think the success or failure lies with the handler though.


 
Well put! And I agree. O


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## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

The one that consistently holds the leash during training sessions is the trainer. The one that shows up on trial day and reports onto the field with the dog is the trainer. We all receive advice from many different sources, including TDs and helpers/decoys, even here on this forum, but they are not the trainers of the dogs. The ultimate decisions and responsibility are in the hands of who consistently holds the leash, gives the commands, etc.. I have helped others with their dogs many, many times, but I am not the trainer of those dogs.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Brett Bowen said:


> No one knows that dog better than the handler, or at least should as they spend a lot more time with that dog. The handler may have a better feel for what may or may not work, providing they've picked up some knowledge.


I think there are plenty of decoy/helpers that would say otherwise in some cases... LOL , and that some handlers have just enough knowledge to really throw a wrench in it...


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## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> I think there are plenty of decoy/helpers that would say otherwise in some cases... LOL , and that some handlers have just enough knowledge to really throw a wrench in it...


...and there are plenty of questionable helper/decoys out there too that have screwed many a dog up. To me, the ultimate responsibility is to the one that holds the leash. I realize some helpers/decoys take more of an active role at times in the training, but to me I want the helper to remain in the "bad guy" mode on the field, and the commands/corrections come from the person holding the leash. The dog needs to win against the helper every time, and to me it clouds the issue when helper/decoys give any corrections/commands.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Skip Morgart said:


> ...and there are plenty of questionable helper/decoys out there too that have screwed many a dog up. To me, the ultimate responsibility is to the one that holds the leash. I realize some helpers/decoys take more of an active role at times in the training, but to me I want the helper to remain in the "bad guy" mode on the field, and the commands/corrections come from the person holding the leash. The dog needs to win against the helper every time, and to me it clouds the issue when helper/decoys give any corrections/commands.


I can understand that fully and agree with you...was just making a statement.

You are much more knowledgeable and experienced than many people that are involved in the training of dogs in the protection work.


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

I think the guy who gets paid is the trainer. Very often handlers don't understand the long term ramifications of training decisions. They know a method of how to train a specific thing but how it relates to the dog and the rest of the training is not their. That's why the small tips given by the td or decoy really trains the dog .


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## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

Timothy Saunders said:


> I think the guy who gets paid is the trainer. Very often handlers don't understand the long term ramifications of training decisions. They know a method of how to train a specific thing but how it relates to the dog and the rest of the training is not their. That's why the small tips given by the td or decoy really trains the dog .



Well, somebody should contact UScA and take back all those HOT awards that are given out every year for a long time then. Seriously, club dues pay for many things at a club, including the TD's suggestions when asked. It is the person that is holding the leash that takes it, or modifies it, or leaves it. If a dog is *sent* to stay at a trainer's facility for training, then yes, that's the trainer.


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## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> I can understand that fully and agree with you...was just making a statement.
> 
> You are much more knowledgeable and experienced than many people that are involved in the training of dogs in the protection work.


oh, but I'm still very stupid about a lot of it. Just not as stupid as I was.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Timothy Saunders said:


> I think the guy who gets paid is the trainer. Very often handlers don't understand the long term ramifications of training decisions. They know a method of how to train a specific thing but how it relates to the dog and the rest of the training is not their. That's why the small tips given by the td or decoy really trains the dog .



BWAHAHAHAHA
So you think a decoy or TD who sees my dog once a week. Knows my dog better then I do? Very often TD's and decoys in particular learn one technique that worked on one or two dogs and they think
it will work on all dogs. Experience makes a trainer NOT buying a sleeve or bite suit


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## Mario Fernandez (Jun 21, 2008)

Agree with you Skip. Think the handler is the trainer. Your club and the members helps assist,people accomplish their goals. It is a trivial question ...if any of you have belonged to a good group of people who train together it is non issue . Most of the times I hear so and so train the dog and takes credit for the teams accomplishments but then passes the blame if the team does horrible.


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## Richard Ramirez (Sep 6, 2011)

In my opinion, I believe the person that works/trains the dog is the trainer of that dog. Other people who give advice or help with the training of the dog are not the trainers. Stefan Schaub has a technique whereby he handles the clicker or e-collar for the person training the dog.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Who has the experience in working dogs?
Who owns the dog?
When payment isn't the issue, aren't handler and TD/helper really the "trainers?"
IF the blind are leading the blind...who steps up?


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## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

No matter how much experience the person who holds the leash has, that person is the only real constant in all the scenarios. We have several different helpers at my club, and I will give my dogs practice with other helpers at other clubs. I train at the oldest SchH club in the US, and none of our helpers (or the TD) would ever claim to be the trainer of the club members' dogs, unless it is their own dogs.


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## Ingrid Rosenquist (Mar 27, 2006)

For me it is a bit of semantics. There are dog/handler teams that have "trainers" that instruct them and then there are dog/handler teams that lack the skill and timing to follow said instructions and require the trainer to take a more active role in the training (IOW taking control of the dog). 

For me, it is when the trainer/instructor is stepping beyond instruction for the vast majority of the training that the handler/owner pretty much loses the "trainer" designation. 

In my personal training I have relied on numerous others for feedback, ideas, and solutions. I still consider my dogs to be trained by me. Quite frankly, I doubt many of the individuals I sought advice from would want to be credited with training my dogs ;-)


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> BWAHAHAHAHA
> So you think a decoy or TD who sees my dog once a week. Knows my dog better then I do? Very often TD's and decoys in particular learn one technique that worked on one or two dogs and they think
> it will work on all dogs. Experience makes a trainer NOT buying a sleeve or bite suit


I would say the opposite , a good heiper or td should have seen and worked more dogs than the average handler. Your ability to follow instructions given to u don't make I a trainer . So it is not about your dog specifically. For a td or helper it is about the behaviors


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

Richard Ramirez said:


> In my opinion, I believe the person that works/trains the dog is the trainer of that dog. Other people who give advice or help with the training of the dog are not the trainers. Stefan Schaub has a technique whereby he handles the clicker or e-collar for the person training the dog.


That means the person holding the leash is not the trainer. All of the communication is coming from the person with the clicker or ecollar


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Anybody that can train a dog to do anything can legitimately be called a trainer. But under the heading of trainer there are subsets, handler, helper, training director, etc. But after I see your dog I'll add another sub category like: crappy, novice, super, idiot, dick, talented etc.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> But under the heading of trainer there are subsets, handler, helper, training director, etc. But after I see your dog I'll add another sub category like: crappy, novice, super, idiot, dick, talented etc.


ha ha, that order and sub category reminded me of this clip. Well, I guess we all should know the apparently well known and typical order of sexting. LOL That show is freaking funny. =D>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TCF2r1H6cg

Whose the trainer? PSH, I'm thinking they're asking whose your daddy? LOL


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Nicole Stark said:


> ha ha, that order and sub category reminded me of this clip.



:lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

That show is a guilty pleasure of mine. Can't wait for the new season.

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> BWAHAHAHAHA
> So you think a decoy or TD who sees my dog once a week. Knows my dog better then I do? Very often TD's and decoys in particular learn one technique that worked on one or two dogs and they think
> it will work on all dogs. Experience makes a trainer NOT buying a sleeve or bite suit


Wow Thomas. Idk who u've had wrkng ur dog in the past, but heck yeah. That person should have several yrs experience w/ wrkng multiple breeds, methods, and in different venues to be called ur training director/ helper/ training decoy or person u take advice from. I agree wholeheartedly that the TD should be knowledgeable in observing behaviors associated w/ ur sport or venue and implementing training methods to obtain those that are desired. That person should be payed well for that. IMHO of course.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Zakia Days said:


> Wow Thomas. Idk who u've had wrkng ur dog in the past, but heck yeah. That person should have several yrs experience w/ wrkng multiple breeds, methods, and in different venues to be called ur training director/ helper/ training decoy or person u take advice from. I agree wholeheartedly that the TD should be knowledgeable in observing behaviors associated w/ ur sport or venue and implementing training methods to obtain those that are desired. That person should be payed well for that. IMHO of course.


Hi Zakia

Decoys should do what they're told by the handler or TD or Judge
It's Training Director not Training Dictator. A good TD (and I've worked with lots) will discuss the training with the handler BEFORE they do anything drastic. If I see stuff at seminars or on lists that I like. I discuss it with my TD. He gives me his input based on his experience and we decide if it's a good idea. A TD dictating how I train my dog ain't going to happen


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

My bet is that the TDs or trainers have seen more than most handlers. AND since they are in the bite suit or using the sleeve, have READ more dogs than many handlers have owned in a given period of time. 

It still remains a simple understanding: the person who OWNES the dog should also be calling the shots on HOW their dog is worked or trained. In Schutzhund, the helper works for the judge!!! So why shouldn't the same employee then work for the club members? :-o


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

Howard Gaines III said:


> My bet is that the TDs or trainers have seen more than most handlers. AND since they are in the bite suit or using the sleeve, have READ more dogs than many handlers have owned in a given period of time.
> 
> It still remains a simple understanding: the person who OWNES the dog should also be calling the shots on HOW their dog is worked or trained. In Schutzhund, the helper works for the judge!!! So why shouldn't the same employee then work for the club members? :-o


If we are assuming the person holding the end of the leash has handled and titled more than 3 dogs (at the very least) and has somewhat of a clue, then yes. Agreed.


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

I look at Schutzhund as a “team sport”. I am only as successful as the club members I train with can help me to be. Along with needing a helper for protection work, I also need people to add distractions, to spot for me in obedience, to lay my tracks on occasion, and work the line for me in certain exercises.

I think the many of the successful clubs/trainers have more of a team mentality nowadays. You really can’t train a dog all by yourself.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Tracey Hughes said:


> I look at Schutzhund as a “team sport”. I am only as successful as the club members I train with can help me to be. Along with needing a helper for protection work, I also need people to add distractions, to spot for me in obedience, to lay my tracks on occasion, and work the line for me in certain exercises.
> 
> I think the many of the successful clubs/trainers have more of a team mentality nowadays. You really can’t train a dog all by yourself.


With obedience, agility and herding you certainly can train a dog all by yourself. I have no choice because of where I live. I know others in the same situation who train on their own and do really well, one friend took her dog to UD and masters agility, training entirely by herself. 

It is tricky as the trialing enviroment is far removed from the farm I train on with my home made gear, but me and my dogs we do okay and allthough we are most likely never going to be at the top, several of my dogs have won a state championship in agility, so it is possible. 

I rely purely on DVDs, books and experience gained at trials and the occassional seminar.


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

Hi Sara-

Yes, I meant for SchH/IPO dogs. You certainly can train dogs in OB and tracking alone, I did it for years and even now I work a lot by myself away from the club. But I put all the members here to good use when I have the chance:-o

Good luck with your dogs!


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