# Grim malinios bitesuit work 1 year old



## Eran Maschkowski (Jul 11, 2006)

videolink- http://www.israeldogs.com/videoclips/grimpark.wmv

enjoy


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## Hil Harrison (Mar 29, 2006)

wow Eran.............love it!

Thats one darn good dog there..........when hes on the suit he sure doesn't let go :lol: ..............good bite and not at all restless when biting.
Great .....and still young...hes very promising :wink:


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

nice dog. how is he with ducks?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Andres Martin said:


> nice dog. how is he with ducks?



:lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Eran Maschkowski (Jul 11, 2006)

thank you
but i didn't understand the duck part?!? :? 

eran


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Eran Maschkowski said:


> thank you
> but i didn't understand the duck part?!? :?
> 
> eran


It carried over from a thread about ducks and dogs getting along (or not), and it was just a little humor. Nothing about your excellent dog!


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

Hey Eran? Is that you handling the pup?


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## Eran Maschkowski (Jul 11, 2006)

the handling of the pup is me one and off.
i am with the long with sweatshirt snd their is Sagi who is with the short t-shirt.

i was filming part off the training 

why?


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## Eran Maschkowski (Jul 11, 2006)

the last pull off of the dog was a little bit shitty, cause the decoy didn't land good in his fall and had a lot of pain so we had to pull the dog of before calming him and letting him bite full and good.


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

I wanted to point out the calm and good handling, particularly the soft yet firm pushes on the dog's neck while on the bite. Overall, that type of handling promotes good, hard bites, and helps the dog during the "choke-off" preventing his becoming chewy. That is also the way to teach a dog to push into the bite, as opposed to pulling - pulling - pulling.

Beyond looking at the dog in the video...I wanted to ask people to look at the handling of your dog during bite development training, as a good example.


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## Eran Maschkowski (Jul 11, 2006)

thank you andres


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

Nice dog, but what is the purpose of choking the dog from the bite, is this standard in KNPV-training? When do you learn the dog what an out means?


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

I learn it when they´re still on the sleeve...a good out is another bite :wink: So when the´re on the suit, the out is already good. 

So no, it isnt common.


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## Dick van Leeuwen (Nov 28, 2006)

Simpel. 
Learning the dog to bite=learning the dog "out".
Learning the dog to bark=learning the dog to be quiet.
Learning the dog to hold an artikel in his mouth=learning him to give it on command in your hands.

All those things are eachothers opposite and makes clear for a dog what you want from him. 
Only then you can demand what you want from a dog. A lot is going wrong because of miscommunication/misunderstanding between the dog and handler.
A lot of handlers think too soon that a dog is understanding what they mean/want and give too little attention in the learning fase to a dog to make sure to practice in little steps what they want from him. 
Making little steps, means also that you have the possibility of making a stap backworths if you´re having a problem with an exercise.

The better and claerer it is for a dog what you want, the more pressure you can give to a dog to demand your will, and the more stabile he will work for you.
The filosophy of working a policedog (and also KNPV, if you still see it as a preporation for the working policedog) is that the dog must do what the handler wants because he demands that from his dog at every time in every place. So not depending if a dog is willing at that moment because that makes the working dog too unreliable.
The dog should be happy because he makes the handler happy(with doing what the handler wants) So in the end you have a happy dog, but for the right reason.....

greetz.
Dick


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## Greg Long (Mar 27, 2006)

I have a stupid question.Why is it preferrable that a dog push into the bite,speaking only from a working standpoint?


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## Dick van Leeuwen (Nov 28, 2006)

Greg Long said:


> I have a stupid question.Why is it preferrable that a dog push into the bite,speaking only from a working standpoint?


There is no such thing as a stupid question.... :wink: 

It is better for a dog to push as to pull, because when a dog bites in policepractice you will see thad de dog that pulls will have mostly clothes in his mouth and no "bodyparts".
The place for a policedog here in Holland as a policeweapon is right under the firearm(pistol) so above the pepperspray and batton.
It comes in when those weapons do not work anymore or are not proportional. Just biting some clothing does´nt make the diffrence. 
When the policedog is used he should make the difference. So realy take the suspect out and that doesn´t happen with only a mouth full of clothes. :wink: 

It also says something about the dog when he naturaly pull or pushes. But that is a different reason why I like the dog to push.

greetz
Dick


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## Greg Long (Mar 27, 2006)

I can understand that and it makes sense.To me a dog that is not working strictly in prey will not intentionally go for just clothes.I guess you are just trying to help the dog a little?I know a bite can slip to just the clothes but my dogs usually want meat anyway.Just an observation.


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

Ok, that´s what I´m used too, learning the dog what an outs means early on, by givining the dog another bite for example. If the dog is choked away from the bite, I guess this could lead to misscomunication/missunderstanding if the dog is old and then suddenly are demanded to out when it´s doesn´t even know what an out means.


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## Eran Maschkowski (Jul 11, 2006)

I got here some repleys from our dutch experts who have way mare experiense then me ,so i have to be carefull with me answers.

about the choking of the dog and if it is common in the knpv or not. 
the choke off isn't on common too, i have seen some clubs who do it even till an age later then a 1 year old dog and it's not because the dog didn't bite good or not so...

there are people (in holland) who say that if you do the chook off good it only makes the dogs bite stronger and harder , but you have to do it very very correct and right. this doesn't say that these dogs are not good dogs tough they do it as a way of their training method.

after said that I know and understand what selena and dick mean with the confllicts for the dog and i was allready planning to learn the dog to "out" in the coupple off next week. 

and greg- a don't agree with you about what you wrote. you have a lot off dogs that even i they are in defense or not in the "strickt prey drive " like you said will pull pull and pull so!!!


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

I do it a bit like Eran. I teach bite, bite, bite up to a bit beyond one year, and then I teach to "out". Plus, I agree that a good choke off promotes a very stiff and hard bite. When you "out" for a re-bite, IMO, you can create a conflict if there is no re-bite.

Also, I have to very, very careful. Mr. van Rossum :wink: and his wife, Selena, have VERY important credentials.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Andres Martin said:


> I do it a bit like Eran. I teach bite, bite, bite up to a bit beyond one year, and then I teach to "out". Plus, I agree that a good choke off promotes a very stiff and hard bite.


Why does a dog bite harder at the moment of choking?
´cause he doesn´t want to out...already conflict. A useable one, if done good, I agree on that.



Andres Martin said:


> When you "out" for a re-bite, IMO, you can create a conflict if there is no re-bite.


Why do you think that?
If a bite (vast or stellen) and an out (los(en))are always on command, there will be no conflict. And you can correct a dog when he´s not obeying...if he bites _without_ a command, it is correctable :wink: 



Andres Martin said:


> Also, I have to very, very careful. Mr. van Rossum :wink: and his wife, Selena, have VERY important credentials.


mr. van Rossum is my dad, mrs. van Rossum my (steph)mum, I was miss van Rossum...now i´m Selena van Leeuwen-van Rossum.
With who have you been gossiping? Jan?


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

I was referring to Mr. Dick van Rossum - van Leeuwen.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Andres Martin said:


> I was referring to Mr. Dick van Rossum - van Leeuwen.


he is only Dick van Leeuwen :wink:


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

> Why do you think that?
> If a bite (vast or stellen) and an out (los(en))are always on command, there will be no conflict. And you can correct a dog when he´s not obeying...if he bites without a command, it is correctable


I agree with you. The reason why I think as I do, however, is because when the "out" is done in anticipation of a re-bite, the dog always anticipates and becomes pushy - even if he doesn't bite. Most of the time, a dog taught like that will want to stay very close to a decoy, or will push the decoy to stimulate movement, so he can get a new bite. I prefer for the dog to be at a safe distance from the decoy.
However, from a tactical perspective, I am currently evaluating this. There are some fine points to consider.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Andres Martin said:


> > Why do you think that?
> > If a bite (vast or stellen) and an out (los(en))are always on command, there will be no conflict. And you can correct a dog when he´s not obeying...if he bites without a command, it is correctable
> 
> 
> ...


We teach the out for a bite with all our dogs. 
The rebite doesn't come till the dog is doing a good H&B or a good sit and watch the helper. Depends on what we're working on. 
As a sport club we aren't concerned with the distance. I can understand that for a street K9. 
A dog that gets to pushy is given a "FOOEY" and foosed away from the helper for a bit. 
Taking them away can build frustration but they all seem to eventually put it together.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Andres Martin said:


> > Why do you think that?
> > If a bite (vast or stellen) and an out (los(en))are always on command, there will be no conflict. And you can correct a dog when he´s not obeying...if he bites without a command, it is correctable
> 
> 
> ...


Our learningstage: biting on the sleeve, win the sleeve, out by the handler. Decoy gets the sleeve, teases the dog, another bite. On the suit, biting, outing on command, helping the dog to sit behind the decoy. Rebite on command. Helper is passive (standing still), rebiting is only allowed on command. After learning stage, there will be _some_ movement of decoy.

Wanting to be close to the decoy is what we want..starting of the guard stage. In knpv guarding is behind the decoy (silent or barking..we prefer silent), so you have a close guard and a quick response on command or movement (flee or defense of handler). So for us it is an advantage :wink: 

you get guarding like this:

http://www.vanleeuwen-hollandseherders.nl/images/werp_rob_stefroest.jpg


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

Andres,

if you teach the dog to bite, bite, bite upp to it´s over one year old and THEN teaches the out, how do you do that, with heavy compulsion only? In the old days training was done so many times, but it´s seems to cause unnecessary conflict and is also not fair to the dog in my opinion.


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

Erik, I teach the "out" as a "come to heel" mostly, and that process is started in play...but yes, I use compulsion. The amount - whether heavy or light - depends on the dog.


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