# food refusal question



## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

I have been fooling around with my mal in the yard trying out the food refusal (ring style) and have run into a snafu and could use some suggestions.

Throwing of the food is going fine.

When I go to pick up the dog and heel over the food, she doesn't want to heel over it.

She will leap over it as I step forward, or around it and come to heel as I move forward.

How would this be best addressed?

Would you just put food out and heel her over it, stop on it and so on to desensitize her to it? I can heel her back over it no problem once she is not really thinking about it.

I have some vid, but it will take a while to get off my camera and uploaded to the interweb and I feel lazy.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> I have been fooling around with my mal in the yard trying out the food refusal (ring style) and have run into a snafu and could use some suggestions.
> 
> Throwing of the food is going fine.
> 
> ...


Hi Jennifer

Did you start throwing food at her? What type of food?
What did you use to make her avoid the food? Verbal NO or
electric collar or ? It sounds like she is afraid of and avoiding the food. That all being said, I don't believe there is a requirement that you have to heel forward over the food.
The should be able to heel off to the right or left AFAIK


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> AFAIK


???????


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Hi Jennifer
> 
> Did you start throwing food at her? What type of food?
> What did you use to make her avoid the food? Verbal NO or
> ...


If you are doing ring you have to go in the direction the dog is facing.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Timothy Saunders said:


> If you are doing ring you have to go in the direction the dog is facing.


I've always heeled AWAY from the food in Mondio Ring, of course that was before the last trial when Belatu ate the food first


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

She has never had more than a verbal "ah ah" in the food refusal. She never tried to eat it heeling away, has never had a correction there, even verbal.

Interestingly, she is not overly voice sensitive in everyday training or life. She seems to be in this exercise though. I did realize early on that too big a verbal correction on the food could make a dogs get up and think they have to leave the food, so I have been careful that way.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhJfKnm6ru0


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

When you go to heel her away, put a reward in her face so she is more focused on that than what is on the ground. This is not unusual at all and is a stage many dogs go through when learning this exercise. We tell them to not touch the food, then suddenly as they heel away it's OK to touch?? It's confusing at first.

With my dogs, when I come back to pick them up, I have a piece of food in my left hand. As we heel away I'm luring them with that food just enough so they are focused on the food in my hand, and not the food on the ground. At first I reward as we are walking away, later I make them wait a little longer for the reward, then I may go to a toy reward or I may keep with the food depending on the dog. A few reps of this and they don't care about the food anymore when we heel off, and since they are focusing on me waiting for a reward they also aren't busily looking for food to grab as they walk away.

For French Ring you do need to heel away in the direction the dog is facing.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Superstitious behavior.
She knows the food is taboo and wont have anything to do with it. Even walking over it. 
I would desensitize her by just doing a lot of heeling near the food. Mark and reward for holding focus on you.


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

first off PUT ON A LEASH!!!!!
2I would tell her to heel. WAIT till she is in heel before walking. you didnt.
3 I would maybe keep your ball in your hand instead of under your chin. That way you can throw it. Pitch it hard to the ground from right to left so she has to run hard for the ball.
4 dont throw the ball after only .5 of a step. She got out of position. You did good waiting and getting her back but you only took a little step before she got the ball. I think you should have walked maybe 3 or 4 good steps then throw the ball.

Thomas French Ring and Mondio are 2 diffrent sports. You have to heel straight the way the dog is facing


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Daniel Lybbert said:


> first off PUT ON A LEASH!!!!!
> 2I would tell her to heel. WAIT till she is in heel before walking. you didnt.
> 3 I would maybe keep your ball in your hand instead of under your chin. That way you can throw it. Pitch it hard to the ground from right to left so she has to run hard for the ball.
> 4 dont throw the ball after only .5 of a step. She got out of position. You did good waiting and getting her back but you only took a little step before she got the ball. I think you should have walked maybe 3 or 4 good steps then throw the ball.
> ...


Ha Ha...I was thinking that maybe she could have been on a leash! So you are saying i can give a heel command, wait for her to sit up, and then leave?

Normally I do walk her over 3 or 4 good steps and then reward. She will jump around to position after the first step or two and if I keep going she heels perfectly. This time I on purpose decided to try rewarding right on the food in the right(ish) position. I was worried that she was just thinking that jumping over the food then coming into position for reward after a few steps was okay since it has not been going away.

Both you and Kadi, and someone on the phone have suggested to lure closer over the food on the first step or two (with food or a ball), just to get her staying in position for the first two steps. So I will try that.

I will also do some heeling over food to desensitize some. I think we will get through it if I work on it.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

nice yardsize....place food everywhere, leash dog and heel away! she will learn eventualy to do as told.....expand from there...also after doing the refusal exersize I would heel over the food a few times every time I do the exersize.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Ha Ha...I was thinking that maybe she could have been on a leash! So you are saying i can give a heel command, wait for her to sit up, and then leave?


If you ever did Ring the judge would give the horn signal to command the dog into heel at the point of you returning from the blind. As others have said you leave in the direction the dog is facing. 



Jennifer Coulter said:


> Normally I do walk her over 3 or 4 good steps and then reward. She will jump around to position after the first step or two and if I keep going she heels perfectly. This time I on purpose decided to try rewarding right on the food in the right(ish) position. I was worried that she was just thinking that jumping over the food then coming into position for reward after a few steps was okay since it has not been going away.


Again the judge would give the double horn on the 3rd step after picking up the dog and the exercise is over. When I get the double horn I always put the dog back into obedience with a simple command "sit" to put the dog back into focus on me. Then I can get my bearings on where the deputy judge needs me and the dog next. Just a simple sit command redirects the dog back onto me and it forgets the thrown food. 



Jennifer Coulter said:


> have suggested to lure closer over the food on the first step or two (with food or a ball), just to get her staying in position for the first two steps. So I will try that.


Don't worry about her skipping over the food at this point or losing the all mighty position, as it is a food refusal exercise not a heel exercise. You have a point at the 3rd step and double horn to make the dog focus on you before continuing. By putting her back in OB as described above. 



Jennifer Coulter said:


> I will also do some heeling over food to desensitize some. I think we will get through it if I work on it.


Why would you worry about desensitizing her around food on the ground? You are putting unneeded stress and control where IMO it isn't needed. 

The thing you need to worry about is her displacing when the food is thrown as if you ever did Ring at some point there is a 0.5m window before a judge will ding you for that infraction. I can see she is a bit stressed over the thrown food already in the video. If you keep putting stress on her for the food on the ground she *will* displace on the thrown food, it is only normal. As the thrown food always ends up on the ground. (the poison that you are fretting about) Just make it all neutral for her, thrown or static food it will be her bond with you that will give her the want to refuse the food in the first place. As she will always know that you have something better for her in the end. She understands the exercise so just keep it fun for her and it will be easy and will all fall into place.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Geoff Empey said:


> If you ever did Ring the judge would give the horn signal to command the dog into heel at the point of you returning from the blind. As others have said you leave in the direction the dog is facing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't understand most of this post. Are you saying that in FR it wouldn't matter points wise if she jumped over the food when I heel her forwards? It is great that the exercise is over after the 3rd ish step, and I should refocus her there, but it is the first step she will jump.

It is early and I don't drink coffee, so I will re read this later when I am awake LOL


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

>>Both you and Kadi, and someone on the phone


DO i know this person on the phone? lol


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Thomas Barriano said:


> I've always heeled AWAY from the food in Mondio Ring, of course that was before the last trial when Belatu ate the food first


Thomas I hate when that happens lol


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Alice Bezemer said:


> nice yardsize....place food everywhere, leash dog and heel away! she will learn eventualy to do as told.....expand from there...also after doing the refusal exersize I would heel over the food a few times every time I do the exersize.


This is my approach. Just patience


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Are you saying that in FR it wouldn't matter points wise if she jumped over the food when I heel her forwards?


I have seen some judges ding a handler because the dog got to far out of heel position when they were heeling away from an exercise. Generally it was during the food refusal, because the dog was trying to avoid the food. I would work on getting her to maintain a proper heel position as you are walking away, and not let her leave you to avoid.



> So you are saying i can give a heel command, wait for her to sit up, and then leave?


Yes, as long as the wait isn't to long. IE honk, "rover heel", 1/2 second pause while dog sits, then you walk away


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

Geoff she is training not trialing. If your dog jumps around the food in a trial I will bet you get dinged for dog displaces itsself 1 meter. 
I think she should worry about the position of heel. One other thing is we stand back by the dogs hip so that at the command the dog actually comes back to heel. Instead of just sitting up. This makes sure that they are ready to go. 
I wouldnt use food to lure her over the food in food refusal. I think even the amount of times the word food in the last sentence cause problems.


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## Tamara McIntosh (Jul 14, 2009)

Hi Jen,

I didn' t have time to watch the vid this morning but here are my thoughts.

With my dog I used a combo of methods... I used inert obejcts to teach the toss - so that even if they attempted to eat the tossed item it surely wasn't palatabel or eatable. I used gatorade bottle caps, altho they are very light and a pain to toss.

After the dog learned the toss, I used a ball as the reward. Pretty much Mike Ellis's method. I toss the food, when it is good I released the dog with a thrown ball behind them. Once the dog was good with that and understood that the tossed ball was much more fun, I would start to walk closer to the dog, then toss.. until I am in heel and toss.

Now when I walk back to my dog he is anticipating the reward rather than worring about the food. He is incredibly attentive to me when I return and I have no issues walking over the food. 

Mike Ellis has the food thrower toss the ball, however I train by myself for the most part so it just ended up being me anyways.

Getting ready for trial I will hold off reward until the horn sounds.

According to the new rules you have to leave in the direction the dog is facing, and in most cases it is directly over the food. I just checked in the rules and there is no point loss for a dog freaking out over walking on the food, but I was always told it is not a good thing to do or let the dog get a habit for.

I also wanted to second what daniel said about waiting for the dog to get into heel before leaving. It takes very little time and ensures your dog is not lagging or forging. A good habit to get into with all the excersises.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Tamara McIntosh said:


> I just checked in the rules and there is no point loss for a dog freaking out over walking on the food, but I was always told it is not a good thing to do or let the dog get a habit for.


Actually there is a point loss, depending on how strict the judge is.

15 Handler does not give heel command at the end of the exercise or *dog does not heel after the handler’s command *-5​

A dog who is jumping around avoiding the food, and 1/2 a meter or more away from the handler, really isn't heeling.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Daniel Lybbert said:


> I wouldnt use food to lure her over the food in food refusal. I think even the amount of times the word food in the last sentence cause problems.


I actually use food as my reward in the food refusal specifically because the dog just ignored the food tossed on the ground by the food thrower :lol::lol::lol:

Anyway, I like to reward them with what they just ignored, let them know that it's no big deal, ignore those pieces of old dried up pizza and I'll give you a piece of chicken  Or I'll reward them with a piece of what was being thrown, if it's not to nasty LOL. Plus I don't really like to toss a ball and release them after the exercise, on the off chance they decide to use that "free" to go grab a piece of food off the ground before the thrower can pick it all up. But I will also, if the dog is stressed during the throwing, on occasion have the food thrower step in and give the dog a piece of food. It's just another way to train the exercise.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Brian Anderson said:


> This is my approach. Just patience


Mine too, I can never understand why everyone is always in a rush with any exercise. It can be so counterproductive. 



Daniel Lybbert said:


> If your dog jumps around the food in a trial I will bet you get dinged for dog displaces itsself 1 meter. I think she should worry about the position of heel. One other thing is we stand back by the dogs hip so that at the command the dog actually comes back to heel. Instead of just sitting up. This makes sure that they are ready to go. I wouldnt use food to lure her over the food in food refusal. I think even the amount of times the word food in the last sentence cause problems.


You said earlier that


> first off PUT ON A LEASH!!!!!


 I agree that is the first step is NOT letting the dog get into bad habits in the first place. As it is normal that the dog will want to avoid the food if that is what is going on in the dogs head. In the video when she is having the food thrown, I see the dog thinking with borderline displacement behaviour while stressing to do the right thing for the handler. She is exactly like her mother was at that age with various exercises with the body language it is pretty uncanny, like I am seeing Sasha's ghost. :mrgreen: 



Kadi Thingvall said:


> I have seen some judges ding a handler because the dog got to far out of heel position when they were heeling away from an exercise. Generally it was during the food refusal, because the dog was trying to avoid the food. I would work on getting her to maintain a proper heel position as you are walking away, and not let her leave you to avoid.


I've been dinged on displacement when my dog moves away from the thrown food while in the box. But with my dog's issue it was probably more pressure in training to 'refuse' the food it had to be a side effect of stress of training the exercise. Which is probably why Pika skips over the food while heeling away too. 

My thing is Jenn adding extra things to the exercise because of what the dog behaviour is throwing at her. So now the exercise isn't just about food refusal. Now the dog is out of position and the dog is in a state of being in a place to be corrected and the handler is fretting about that, even though it is not the original exercise being trained. 

So if the dog had a leash on at pickup it may try to displace but won't be able to. Then the dog will just understand it isn't that bad when it is in heel, then in time the hop/jump/skip over the food won't happen as the dog will just be focused on Jenn. But again I would not make the being in position the focus of the food refusal exercise as it will improve naturally if Jenn doesn't make a big deal out of it. The dog is just thinking to much trying to please the handler. I've seen it thousands of times with Pika's mother and brother. So I pick my obedience battles carefully with them. I really don't want to force issues and just try to be neutral even when I want to kill them! :lol: 



Daniel Lybbert said:


> Geoff she is training not trialing.





Jennifer Coulter said:


> I don't understand most of this post. Are you saying that in FR it wouldn't matter points wise if she jumped over the food when I heel her forwards? It is great that the exercise is over after the 3rd ish step, and I should refocus her there, but it is the first step she will jump.


Yes Daniel I know she is training.  But I'll go on why she should follow the protocol for the exercise as per the FR rule book.  Basically Jenn I outlined the itty bitty steps that would be suitable in a FR trial it is all in the rulebook those basic placements. There is no reason why you can't train it like a trial especially the placement of the dog and pickup. It is all about repetition and consistency and keeping it simple. In the rulebook all the placements and pickups are done the same way, so that will help with the consistency. Keep a leash on her so you have control, pick it up and use it to guide the dog. Don't let the dog fail while she is learning much easier to proof later. 

Jenn I feel a lot of the Schh (focused heeling, directional control, etc ) and many of the FR exercises will help Pika in her SAR career, food refusal is one of those exercises that translate well to the real world. I think it is great that you are incorporating some of these exercises into your overall training program you will have a much better overall dog for it.


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## Tamara McIntosh (Jul 14, 2009)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Actually there is a point loss, depending on how strict the judge is.
> 
> 15 Handler does not give heel command at the end of the exercise or *dog does not heel after the handler’s command *-5​
> 
> A dog who is jumping around avoiding the food, and 1/2 a meter or more away from the handler, really isn't heeling.


Thanks for the clarification Kadi. I knew there was some kind of penalty but didn't see it when I glanced at the rules this morning.


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