# conflict? insecurity?



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

just more rambling, but have been seriously thinking about this one as well...the use of the word "insecurity" came up in a thread about possessiveness, which then morphed into a discussion of the out.

My new question is this...

If a dog has a conflict on the OUT, can we label this as insecurity, blindly as well?
I agree that insecurity CAN cause a dogs not to out for several reasons.

But the most common term I see used is CONFLICT..This CAN be conflict based on insecurity with the helper, or insecurity with the handler...I agree..

but again I will just use the literal definition of CONFLICT for my purposes..

*Conflict*

1. fight, battle, war..

*2. a : competitive or opposing action of incompatibles : antagonistic state or action (as of divergent ideas, interests, or persons)

2. b : mental struggle resulting from incompatible or opposing needs, drives, wishes, or external or internal demands*

I see this sometimes as well, (unless my eyes and brain are deceiving me) in a dog that may have a handler conflict on the OUT...which might mean the relationship is lacking between dog and handler, and that the dog just does not want to comply with the handlers wishes, due to their being a conflict with his own desires, a difference of opinion if you will...basically the dog gives the handler the finger, blows him off.....

So am I just crazy, or could it be that insecurity may not be the reason some dogs have conflict during the out, dont out as quickly as they should, as cleanly as they should, or why some dogs just dont out period...

Like I said, I can see insecurity as a motivation to not out, I just am not comfortable with this as the reason for ALL dog to have possessive traits or outing issues....

I agree that people dont like to hear the word insecurity, and also agree that insecurity does not equal weakness. but just cant agree that a conflict in the out is always insecurity...I think it can also just be a conflict of interests between the dog and the handler, in some cases....

not trying to make excuses for a poor out here, just trying to hash out the possible reasons for one....


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Dont agree with labeling it, the out issue is a a OB and lack of consistency training issue, nothing more - nothing less Joby. Know of this first hand right now.

my mali when we are training strong has a clean out, but do to lack of time and trying to buy another business and kids ( yea I know excuses oh well ) he has become lame in the out, still recall, still downs in motion to the bite, still outs a toy like a champ. Just wont out once he gets to the bite, not the first time from having a slacker for a handler, with a tug or ball reward I clean that shit right up over the course of a short refresher just like his other OB. But hes getting up there in age kinda so I really dont give a crap like I use to either and letting him be the dog he wants to a little bit more as he gets older, because I have some other stuff up me sleeve.

Anyways JMO


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Years ago I seen a dog that when he won the sleeve it was his, for like the next 20-30 minutes. He'd be in his crate with the sleeve still firmly attached to his jaw It was the first time I'd seen something like that and I often wonder why.
Then I seen the same dog a second time and seen it's other behaviors and the lights came on. The answer was if the dog held onto the sleeve, no more bite work. I've also seen dogs that outed OK but then push into the sleeve to promote movement and therefore a legal bite. Which to me is another kind of possessiveness, much preferable to the first example, but still a problem. The dog would always do this even with various corrections. Some called it conflict, I was kinda thinking possessiveness given when the dog did win the sleeve, off he'd go, not caring about anything but the sleeve. The handler also had issue retrieving the sleeve from the dog.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Joby I believe the out is the perfect setup to creat conflict between the handler and the dog. The dog wants it (im not using insecurity here). He knows you want to take it. 

We do the same thing. I observed people at the mardi gras parade. Jumping and competing for tosseses off the floats. When a person would catch a prize and another person tried to snatch it from them they didn't surrender the prize they tugged at it greedily sometimes even leading to small scuffles. If I were to snatch it from someone and then quickly replace it with a 20.00 dollar bill. What would they do the next time I tried to snatch the .06 cent prize? Instant behavioral modification takes place lol. 

how each person translates that to the dog and his behavior seems to be different. I have seen some dogs get the shit knocked out of them (not by me) and I was almost 100% positive that the dog did not clearly understand what "out" meant. That is conflict!! It makes me crazy to see people working on the out and pulling against the dog (ummm isnt the same thing you were doing when you had the dog on post amping him up??). Worse yet many times with a prong ughh.. anyway sorry for the rant at the end.


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## Peter Cho (Apr 21, 2010)

Conflict with handler. 

Outing taught badly is a training issue and handler not being prepared issue.
Being prepared. Now that is another topic. 

Outing issue can be created many times because if the dog is high in prey and conflict is created by handler that has never known or met the dog 's threshold by giving progressively harder correction.......well, you are creating more fight more power.

By the time you realize what you created, well, you pushed his threshold super high, creating a problem. Seen this many times.

Correction below the dog threshhold will increase unwanted behavior and bring more power to that behavior[positive reinforcement -classic example]
Now you taught the dog how to overcome the correction and he will fight you for control.......

In the mind of the handler, corrections are positive punishment blocking a behavior..... Funny how it creates the opposite effect.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Peter Cho said:


> Conflict with handler.
> 
> Outing taught badly is a training issue and handler not being prepared issue.
> Being prepared. Now that is another topic.
> ...


I agree Peter, would you call the behavior you just described, insecurity, or do you think the dog might just be giving the handler the finger? or maybe something else...??


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

In the sport context that I've experienced; the prey dog just wants to play more, the possessive dog just wants the damn object....well just because it's mine.
Both can create conflict through handler error.

The prey dog is easy, it just wants to play/chase more.

The possessive dog on the other hand I think it becomes more of a long term project beginning from almost the first day the handler and dog meet.
Yes it it an OB exercise but one doesn't want to shut down or have the dog second guessing while heading down the field to engage the decoy.

In either case I think the out becomes easier if one has a decoy that can make sure the dog knows he is the target not the sleeve or suit.


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## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> just more rambling, but have been seriously thinking about this one as well...the use of the word "insecurity" came up in a thread about possessiveness, which then morphed into a discussion of the out.
> 
> My new question is this...
> 
> ...


My 2 cents..it depends (my ex-wife used to hate that phrase). Depends on the dog. I wouldn't automatically label it as "conflict". We spend all this time building drives..making the sleeve the "reward"...letting the dog "win" as often as possible, and most of these involves the sleeve (unless we are talking suit work here). I think it is conflict (in a nervy way) for some dogs, while for others it's the overly charged serious will to dominate and win, while others it's just a fun game that they don't want to end. Either way, the dog must comply. So, forgive me if I don't concentrate on what is really going on in the dog's mind in all situations. I'd rather have the dog be concerned about what is going on in MY mind. I think the correction has to be moved up a couple notches, and timed correctly. I think a lot of us sometimes like seeing that intensity, but it can cause issues in other areas also, so it needs addressed. If practicing off the field with a tug or bite roll doesn't help what happens on the field, it's time to up the correction. A stronger pop on the prong until the out, then a sleeve reward after a few seconds. If the strong corrections don't force the out, we have a special sleeve (hardly ever, ever have we had to resort to this) that is wired for "stimulation" as some Ecollar PC people like to say. The helper can turn it on easily when the command is given, and it ALWAYS works as a last result. This might be more info than what was asked...but the thing is that I want the dog to be more concerned about MY happiness/displeasure than me trying to disect all the different things that might be going on in HIS mind. I do try to think of what the dog might be thinking in any early stage, but I don't overly dwell on it if the dog is just being disobedient with a behavior the dog understands. If the dog does good, he is rewarded, happy, and I'm happy. If he doesn't, and as long as I've been fair and clear in my training, and the dog realizes he is not complying (not a brand new behavior being worked on), then an appropriately timed, sufficient correction is needed to remind the dog that things will be a lot more enjoyable as long as they go my way.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Skip Morgart said:


> My 2 cents..it depends (my ex-wife used to hate that phrase). Depends on the dog. I wouldn't automatically label it as "conflict". We spend all this time building drives..making the sleeve the "reward"...letting the dog "win" as often as possible, and most of these involves the sleeve (unless we are talking suit work here). I think it is conflict (in a nervy way) for some dogs, while for others it's the overly charged serious will to dominate and win, while others it's just a fun game that they don't want to end. Either way, the dog must comply. So, forgive me if I don't concentrate on what is really going on in the dog's mind in all situations. I'd rather have the dog be concerned about what is going on in MY mind. I think the correction has to be moved up a couple notches, and timed correctly. I think a lot of us sometimes like seeing that intensity, but it can cause issues in other areas also, so it needs addressed. If practicing off the field with a tug or bite roll doesn't help what happens on the field, it's time to up the correction. A stronger pop on the prong until the out, then a sleeve reward after a few seconds. If the strong corrections don't force the out, we have a special sleeve (hardly ever, ever have we had to resort to this) that is wired for "stimulation" as some Ecollar PC people like to say. The helper can turn it on easily when the command is given, and it ALWAYS works as a last result. This might be more info than what was asked...but the thing is that I want the dog to be more concerned about MY happiness/displeasure than me trying to disect all the different things that might be going on in HIS mind. I do try to think of what the dog might be thinking in any early stage, but I don't overly dwell on it if the dog is just being disobedient with a behavior the dog understands. If the dog does good, he is rewarded, happy, and I'm happy. If he doesn't, and as long as I've been fair and clear in my training, and the dog realizes he is not complying (not a brand new behavior being worked on), then an appropriately timed, sufficient correction is needed to remind the dog that things will be a lot more enjoyable as long as they go my way.


makes sense to me...thanks for the input...


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## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

I guess I could take it a step further (in my mind) and say that any part of bite work creates some level of "conflict", since the dog wants what he can't always quickly have, and part of that is what we use. BUT, I would also say (my 2 cents again) that most problematic "conflict" is generated due to the handler. I know that if I'm not crystal clear and CONSISTENT in what I want/allow, then I am guilty of creating the conflict...if the dog is allowed (by my own lack of being consistent in my rewards/corrections) to not out/whatever, then EVEN THOUGH the dog is being self-rewarded on the sleeve, I'm sure it is with a certain degree of stress/conflict in the dog's mind since the dog realizes that it is not obeying, ("this is not what Skip wants, but I'm getting away with it, I like it, so I'll keep doing it"). I just think that the vast majority of the problems in training I've had over the years were from things that I did or didn't do properly.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I imagine that stress/conflict can be largely avoided if ones action(s) creates an impression that brings about a desired amount of clarity in the work.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Conflict or insecurity, either one can be brought on or reduced with with improper/proper training.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> Conflict or insecurity, either one can be brought on or reduced with with improper/proper training.


Training could be further expanded to encompass leadership. This (what is stated above) certainly applies to people (front line staff) and those in leadership positions as well.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Nicole Stark said:


> Training could be further expanded to encompass leadership. This (what is stated above) certainly applies to people (front line staff) and those in leadership positions as well.



Leadership in dog work means more to me then all the training on the planet. Without it your just going through the motions.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> Leadership in dog work means more to me then all the training on the planet. Without it your just going through the motions.


You've got complete agreement from me on that statement. I've seen what poor leadership does in the workforce particularly within small groups/teams or even one on one relationships. Some might not make (or even accept) the connection between the two as being relevant in the work they do with their dogs but I very much subscribe to the concept of servant leadership. It's one of the primary reasons I record nearly every "first" I do with my dog and an related follow ups. 

I often will observe my dog for several weeks when leading up to training a new behavior that I am not entirely certain about how to achieve. During this observation period I will naturally try to induce singular or a set of behaviors without setting up an actual structured training session. Sometimes the behaviors can occur entirely separate from me thus allowing me to observe a natural cause and effect type of influence that I may be able to incorporate at a later period in time. Usually, this period of observation pays of in spades.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Nicole said
"Usually, this period of observation pays of in spades."

"The power of observation" is another one of those mystery factors that some will never get.


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