# DCM in my Dobe



## lynn oliver (May 30, 2010)

I had the devastating news that my best friend Boysie, a 5 and a half yr old Dobe has DCM, he has started on Pimobendan 10mg bd,spironalactone 40mg od and frusecare 40mg bd. Please can anyone tell me if there are better treatments available, I do know the prognosis is inevitable but I want to give him the best quality of life I possibly can.Any information will be gratefully received. 
Thank you Lynn


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

lynn oliver said:


> I had the devastating news that my best friend Boysie, a 5 and a half yr old Dobe has DCM, he has started on Pimobendan 10mg bd,spironalactone 40mg od and frusecare 40mg bd. Please can anyone tell me if there are better treatments available, I do know the prognosis is inevitable but I want to give him the best quality of life I possibly can.Any information will be gratefully received.
> Thank you Lynn


Hi Lynn

I"m really sorry to hear that. You might try asking on the Working Doberman Forum?
http://usadobermann.proboards.com/index.cgi?


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Sorry to hear the diagnosis. I would check in with Gina P. Not every forum has a board certified veterinary cardiologist with working dogs.


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## Kara Fitzpatrick (Dec 2, 2009)

not a lot of doberman people on here to discuss this- I'd suggest the doberman pet forum for more information: www.dobermantalk.com. you can get medications that can help increase the life of your dog, so i would definitely see a cardiologist. 

here are some threads that popped up in a quick search i did: 
http://www.dobermantalk.com/doberman-health/46919-omg-what-dcm-break-through.html

http://www.dobermantalk.com/doberman-health/44387-your-dobermans-dcm-dilated-cardiomyopathy.html

and some more general info: 
http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/cliented/dcm.aspx


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## Gina Pasieka (Apr 25, 2010)

Sorry to hear about your Dobe's diagnosis. Pimobendan is the best medication we have available to provide good quality of life after the first episode of congestive heart failure, however the prognosis on average is usually around 9-12 months. The lasix and spironolactone are diuretics to help stop the accumulation of fluid in the lungs and body cavities, but you did not mention if your dog was on an angiotensin converting enzyme inhibitor (enalapril, benazepril or the such). Unless your dog has some reason to not be on the medication (ie. severe kidney disease or elevated potassium....which means that he shouldnt be on the spironolactone either), that medication is a crucial part of his medication schedule. Please discuss this with your primary care veterinarian. The other question I must ask is, is there any evidence of an arrhythmia? Sudden death from ventricular tachycardia or worsening heart failure from atrial fibrillation is a very big concern in dobes. Different medications would be needed for these arrhythmias. The other thing I would recommend to you is starting Omega 3 fatty acid supplementation (fish oils) once your dog is doing well on his medications. Please offer him a good quality, but be careful of the amount of salt intake. Weight loss is a very serious problem with DCM.
Please let me know if there are any other questions I can answer for you.
Gina


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## Gina Pasieka (Apr 25, 2010)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Sorry to hear the diagnosis. I would check in with Gina P. Not every forum has a board certified veterinary cardiologist with working dogs.


I am pretty sure this is the only one


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## Melissa Thom (Jun 21, 2011)

I don't have much to add other than I'm so sorry Lynn. I hope you are able to find something that will buy him some time with good days ahead.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Gina Pasieka said:


> I am pretty sure this is the only one


Exactly! Cardiology is not a strong suit of mine, so I'm so glad you're here! :-D


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## lynn oliver (May 30, 2010)

Thank you so much for your replies, I was hoping that Maren would reply as I knew she is a Vet and to have Gina is fantastic ! I will speak to my vet today, he is a great chap, but not a cardiologist.He is not on enalapril or equivalent. I cannot remember about the arrythmia as by then I had sort of switched off in shock.Would referral to a specialist make a real difference, or would it just stress him out? We have the Royal Vetinary College very nearby and I could get a referral.
THanks again to all who took the time to reply, I will also visit the Dobe forum.
Lynn


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## lynn oliver (May 30, 2010)

Gina, I spoke to my vet today and he doesn't want to use ACE inhibitors because of the side effects but he didn't say what they were(it was the nurse who rang me back) how important do you consider them to be?(the drugs and s/e) I lost a 10yr old dobe 15yrs ago and so much less was known then, but I am wondering if knowing what is likely to happen is worse!I just feel so impotent!
Thanks again


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## Gina Pasieka (Apr 25, 2010)

An ACEi is very important. It's job is to blunt some of the hormones that are produced when in heart failure. The lasix also increases the rate that these neurohormones are produced. Studies have shown that the combination of lasix/furosemide and pimobendan actually increase these hormones more than either drug separately. It will become more difficult to control the congestive heart failure off the enalapril. I have hundreds of patients on enalapril or benazepril. It is the most common cardiac medication used in heart patients in veterinary medicine. Routine labwork will need to be taken on the enalapril, but the same labwork should be taken when they are on the lasix anyway. There are small number of patients that can develop increasing kidney values on enalapril, but that is why we take a pre-medication panel and then recheck the kidney values and electrolytes 2 weeks after starting. If there is no financial issues, having a cardiologist co-manage your dog will be the best thing you can do for your dog. Please keep us updated.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

lynn, i am so sorry to hear this...quality of life vs quantity. i hope for your boy to have the best of both.


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## lynn oliver (May 30, 2010)

I am going to the cardiologist on Thursday, will keep you posted. Thanks to everyone.
Lynn


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## lynn oliver (May 30, 2010)

I have been to the cardiologist today,I must thank Gina, he is started on Benazepril 20mg od and fish oil 3000mg bd. He has a dry chest now and his blood pressure is normal. The ECG showed no abnormal rhythms during the scan. He is wearing a very fetching string vest which hides the Holter ECG moniter that he is wearing for 24hrs. I am monitering his breathing when he is asleep, I have give him an extra frusemide if it goes above 40 breaths per minute. They have reduced the frusemide to 20mg bd(half of what it was) He looks fantastic and is eating normally. Cant believe how much has changed in a week!
A massive thank you to everyone for your help and kind wishes. I intend to give him the best life I can for as long as I can and treasure every memory and every day with my best friend.
Lynn


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## Kelly Godwin (Jul 25, 2011)

lynn oliver said:


> I have been to the cardiologist today,I must thank Gina, he is started on Benazepril 20mg od and fish oil 3000mg bd. He has a dry chest now and his blood pressure is normal. The ECG showed no abnormal rhythms during the scan. He is wearing a very fetching string vest which hides the Holter ECG moniter that he is wearing for 24hrs. I am monitering his breathing when he is asleep, I have give him an extra frusemide if it goes above 40 breaths per minute. They have reduced the frusemide to 20mg bd(half of what it was) He looks fantastic and is eating normally. Cant believe how much has changed in a week!
> A massive thank you to everyone for your help and kind wishes. I intend to give him the best life I can for as long as I can and treasure every memory and every day with my best friend.
> Lynn



Good luck with your boy, Lynn. I also have a 5 year old dobe and he's an awesome guy. I initially purchased him as a working prospect puppy but he didn't pan out. He's still an awesome dog and I wouldn't trade him for a top working dobe. Just wish these guys didn't have the health issues that seems to run with dobe's.


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## Gina Pasieka (Apr 25, 2010)

Hi Lynn,
I am so happy that you went for a consult and that your boy is doing so well. Please keep us updated on how things are going.:grin:


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## lynn oliver (May 30, 2010)

Hi all, I have an update on Boysie and the results of his Holter. He is well and looking great, he is tolerating all his meds but he now has to go on beta blockers as he has atrial fibrillation( I think that is what Vet said) Does anyone know any problems I might find with them as my brain is like cotton wool trying to take it all in!
I also heard the terribly sad news of another dobe just dropping dead,I cannot believe how common it is .
Thanks for all help and support Lynn


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## Erica Boling (Jun 17, 2008)

So sorry to hear about your Dobe. Unfortunately DCM is quite common in the breed. I'm a member of Doberman Talk Forums, and there are many people on that forum who have dealt with this. They do provide a nice support group, so please consider reaching out to the forum if you haven't already. (Just don't ask people on the forum for training advice.)  If you join, you should contact "Luvbirds" and read her posts about her dog Petey. She took Petey to tons of specialists and fought off the disease for a few years. I think she got a lot more time with Petey than many others had expected, and she was super proactive dealing with the disease.


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## Erica Boling (Jun 17, 2008)

lynn oliver said:


> Hi all, I have an update on Boysie and the results of his Holter. He is well and looking great, he is tolerating all his meds but he now has to go on beta blockers as he has atrial fibrillation( I think that is what Vet said) Does anyone know any problems I might find with them as my brain is like cotton wool trying to take it all in!
> I also heard the terribly sad news of another dobe just dropping dead,I cannot believe how common it is .
> Thanks for all help and support Lynn


Good to hear he is doing well and handling the meds!


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## Gina Pasieka (Apr 25, 2010)

Hi Lynn. Atrial fibrillation is a very common sequela in dobes with dcm. A lot of the time it takes more than one drug to control the heart rate. Dont be surprised if someone talks about adding digoxin. Once in afib....they will usually stay that way. We dont try to convert them usually, as there is little difference if we just keep the heart rate down. I usually like go holter them again once stable on the antiarrhythmics so you know what the average rate it. Please keep us updated.


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## Jason Berthelette (Jan 8, 2011)

I just put my boxer down 2 days ago. DCM was the reason. Again, a genetic issue with this breed as well. I did not medicate him as he had an extreme arrythemia, and was experiencing the ventricualr tachycardia etc. My vet said that I would have been lucky to have him around for New years at the rate he was going. Fluid was building up etc. Xrays and ultrasound looked painful. The only treatment I was told was even close was a lidocaine drip to control the irregular heartbeat but, just a band-aid on a bigger problem. it is devistaing to my family and is definately a disease that takes the lives of young dogs. My boxer was 3, he didn't even have a chance to live a ful life.


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## lynn oliver (May 30, 2010)

Hi 
Thanks to everyone for all your replies and help( especially Gina) He has been doing really well but today he has coughed again, he hadn't coughed at all since he went on the meds. Does anyone know if this is something I need to be really scared about? I will ring his cardiologist tommorrow,. He is eating like a horse and is as cheeky as ever, has lost no weight and looks great God I hate living with this, but I guess the alternative is even worse!
Best wishes Lynn


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

Jason Berthelette said:


> I just put my boxer down 2 days ago. DCM was the reason. Again, a genetic issue with this breed as well. I did not medicate him as he had an extreme arrythemia, and was experiencing the ventricualr tachycardia etc. My vet said that I would have been lucky to have him around for New years at the rate he was going. Fluid was building up etc. Xrays and ultrasound looked painful. The only treatment I was told was even close was a lidocaine drip to control the irregular heartbeat but, just a band-aid on a bigger problem. it is devistaing to my family and is definately a disease that takes the lives of young dogs. My boxer was 3, he didn't even have a chance to live a ful life.


my sincere condolences jason. it's tough to lose them when they're old, but worse when they're young...

lynn--on the other hand, glad to hear your guy is hanging in there!


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## Gina Pasieka (Apr 25, 2010)

Hey Lynn...sorry to hear about the coughing. I always tell my clients that they should feel free giving an additional dose of lasix if they are concerned about coughing while they are contacting me. Another thing you can do is to keep track of his resting respiratory rate tonight. Count how many time he takes in a breath in 15 seconds and multiple this by 4 which will give you his respiratory rate per minute. Dogs should be 30 breaths or less per minute. If they are persistantly higher, this supports that the cough is likely related to a recurrence of fluid in his lungs. Please discuss what dose of lasix they feel comfortably having you give at home in the event of mild signs.


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## lynn oliver (May 30, 2010)

HIi Gina
I am counting his breaths twice a day, at the moment they are 22 to 25 per minute, his blood pressure was checked yesterday and it was 164( he didnt mention the other no.) He could hear no fluid and he has not coughed since yesterday. I had given him an extra half dose of Furousimide.He has put on 1kg and I need to be careful not to spoil him too much! He now weighs 49kg approx.He is as cute as ever and as lively,long may it last. Thanks again for your invaluable help.
Lynn


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## lynn oliver (May 30, 2010)

Hi All

Sorry I havent updated but been manic! Boysie was doing well until last week but he started to cough again, I took him back to the cardiologist last week and his holter is ok(havent had exact reading) but his meds have been increased but his breathing tonight is rasping. He is bright and eating.He is on Benazapril 20mg 1 and a half twice a day,Frusemide 40mg 2.5 tabs twice a day,Pimobendan 10mg twice a day,spironalactone40mg twice a day,Atenolol8mg twice a day plus fish oil.
Thanks for any advice, especially if Gina is online.
Best wishes Lynn


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## Gina Pasieka (Apr 25, 2010)

Hi Lynn...how much does your dog weigh? When did he start the atenolol? That can be a tricky drug to start in a DCM patient and can result in recurrent signs of failure. Fortunately, you are still only on twice a day lasix...so he can easily be increased to three times a day if necessary. The pimo is labeled for BID use, but if we are having significant trouble, we often will go off label and increase to three times a day as well. Let me know if there is a specific question that I can help you with.


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## lynn oliver (May 30, 2010)

Hi Gina
Thank you so much for replying, he weighs 50kg and he has been on Atenolol since October (Thanks to you I went to the Cardiologist and suggested it) He has tolerated all Meds very well up till now. What I don't understand is why he was symptom free up until last week, then he coughed and now we can't clear the fluid it seems. Does this mean he will never clear it and why does it occur? Is there any correlation to amount of excercise, could I have caused it by diet?
I am quite scared and have this feeling of doom!
Thanks again Lynn


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## Gina Pasieka (Apr 25, 2010)

Have they increased his lasix since the coughing returned. At this rate...you may want to give him another 80 mg of lasix today. Does your cardiologist have an oncall number or someone you can talk to in case there is a problem? Normally if I was the Doctor on call I would have you give split the lasix into every 8 hours with that additional 80 mg in the afternoon and have you call the office on Monday. If you are not seeing an improvement in 48 hours, or he worsens, I would recommend an ER clinic for some chest radiographs. Remember that the disease progresses no matter what we do. We change medications as the disease evolves. Since you were just there I am going to assume he has not developed atrial fibrillation. You can help with this by checking his heart rate...if rapid and irregular...he will need to be seen as soon as possible to change his medications. 

Good luck
Gina


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## lynn oliver (May 30, 2010)

Hi Gina

I am so greatful for your help, I am going to give the extra lasix and see how he is, I can go to my cardiologist as an emergancy if necessary. His breathing is definately more rapid but still about 30 up from 22 - 25. He is still bright and eating but slower at excercise, will he be better with little excercise or will it make no difference?

Thanks again Lynn


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## Gina Pasieka (Apr 25, 2010)

I would keep him quiet through the weekend.....then go ahead and start fresh on Monday.


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## lynn oliver (May 30, 2010)

Thanks again, yesterday I was terribly worried he seemed so unsettled, but today he is much more like his normal self and his breaths are back to 22.
Lynn


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Lynn, I just opened this thread. Happy to read he is more like his normal self. 

I also wanted to express how lucky we are to have Maren and Gina on this board. You guys rock.


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## lynn oliver (May 30, 2010)

I second,third and fourth that! They have helped immeasurably and I will be eternally grateful.


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## Gina Pasieka (Apr 25, 2010)

Glad I can be of some use....since my dog training expertise is somewhat limited :lol:


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Me too. I'm neither the best vet ever nor the best trainer, but I try to help where I can. Thanks for the nice words. :grin:


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Gina Pasieka said:


> Glad I can be of some use....since my dog training expertise is somewhat limited :lol:


We have more then enough people giving dog training advise.
Even a few with experience. ;-)


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## lynn oliver (May 30, 2010)

Quick update, Boysie is doing really well, we had our first snow today and he loved playing in it and then lying on the sofa,in front of the fire.Typical dobe!
Best wishes Lynn


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## Gina Pasieka (Apr 25, 2010)

Thanks for the awesome update....Yeah Boysie! =D>


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## lynn oliver (May 30, 2010)

Bad news Boysie admitted to RVC at 3am today,heart rate 200! He has gone down so quickly,he was playing ball on Sunday. Think the news wont be good,any advice from Gina or Maren would be wonderful. Am struggling to keep it together.
Thanks Lynn


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

lynn oliver said:


> Bad news Boysie admitted to RVC at 3am today,heart rate 200! He has gone down so quickly,he was playing ball on Sunday. Think the news wont be good,any advice from Gina or Maren would be wonderful. Am struggling to keep it together.
> Thanks Lynn


Keeping good thoughts for you and Boysie.


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## Gina Pasieka (Apr 25, 2010)

Hi Lynn. Just got home and read your post. Have they determined the arrythmia (ie. atrial fibrillation vs. ventricular tachycardia vs. supraventricular tachycardia)? This will change what medications they will start/change. Please let me know what has been going on. 
Gina


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## lynn oliver (May 30, 2010)

Hi Gina
He has atrial fibrillation, his heart is now 160 and breathing is 28. I am picking him up today to see how he is. I think it may be time to let him go, I don't want a lesser life for him,he didn't even look at the cat when he came home Tuesday,then rushed back Wednesday and a very sad boy.Not sure if they can get heart under control and fluid still there on x ray. They are changing the dieuretic and adding something for the hr. Can't bear to see my noble friend so weak. Thanks


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i know it's tough but if he could talk to you i'll be he would ask you to let him go to sleep when he is happy and with all his friends at home, rather than when he is sad.....


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

lynn oliver said:


> Hi Gina
> He has atrial fibrillation, his heart is now 160 and breathing is 28. I am picking him up today to see how he is. I think it may be time to let him go, I don't want a lesser life for him,he didn't even look at the cat when he came home Tuesday,then rushed back Wednesday and a very sad boy.Not sure if they can get heart under control and fluid still there on x ray. They are changing the dieuretic and adding something for the hr. Can't bear to see my noble friend so weak. Thanks


 
Lynn, I'm so sorry, I know you will know when the time is right to let him go. You guys have certainly fought the good fight.


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## Edward Weiss (Sep 19, 2011)

For human CM ....3rd generation beta blockers(carvedilol)in conjunction with spirnolactone,furosemide , and after load reducing agents are used. The later include both ACE inhibitors and the newer ARBs,which have few side effects.There is now a generic ARB.
Response to Carvedilol and ARBs has been profound.
Good luck


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## lynn oliver (May 30, 2010)

He is on pimobendan 10 mg 2 twice a.day,spironalactone 80mg once a day,atenolol 8mg once a day,benazapril 20mg one and a half once a day,torsemide 10mg one and a half twice a.day,dilitazem 60mg one twice a day and digoxin 125 mcg twice a day. Seems a lot! I am going to see how he is,my cardiologist promised me it is worth a go but I am really unsure right now.
Thanks for all the kind words 
Lynn


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## Edward Weiss (Sep 19, 2011)

Don't want to delve to deeply but Diltiazem is negatively ionotropic (makes heart beat less strongly) has value in atrial fibrillation but for a person atenolol and diltiazem would be replaced with carvedilol.

Its sounds like a very difficult situation and the the therapy in the main seems excellent, wish you well.


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## lynn oliver (May 30, 2010)

Boysie is at peace,over the rainbow bridge,playing with his Dobe brother Banner and sister Amber. I want to thank everyone,but especially Gina and Maren.
Best wishes to you all.
Lynn


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Sad news, Lynn. Sometimes all you can do is let them go. So sorry.


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## Cassandra Lane (Jul 2, 2010)

I'm so sorry. RIP Boysie.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

:sad: I'm sorry, Lynn. 
RIP Boysie


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## Lisa Radcliffe (Jun 9, 2011)

Really sorry to hear this it sounds like you did everything right by your great friend! I am sure he knew it.


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## Melissa Thom (Jun 21, 2011)

So sorry for your loss.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I'm so sorry for your loss, Lynn. You did a wonderful job managing a very difficult condition. I'm sure Boysie treasured the time with you. There's always a goodbye hovering in the shadow of a dog. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRYTbLuZbzA


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## lynn oliver (May 30, 2010)

Thank you to everyone, Maren,that was lovely,thank you ,it is so hard!
Best wishes Lynn


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

lynn--you both fought the good fight and now Boysie's at rest waiting for you at the bridge. take care of yourself....


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## Gina Pasieka (Apr 25, 2010)

Lynn, I am so sorry to hear of your loss. I apologize that I have not been online recently. I have been dealing with rehab on my own boy who is injured. Boysie was a lucky guy to have had you. DCM is a terrible disease, but please find comfort in knowing you did everything you could for him.


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