# Back Angliation



## lannie dulin (Sep 4, 2012)

My 1 y/o dog's hind legs are slightly (about 2") higher than her front. She seems to move just fine, but she arches her back (like a cat when they are scared) when she wags her tail hard. Any thoughts on this? I intend to work her, should I be concerned, or is this a benefit?


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Hi,

You'll need to post pics or videos for anyone to understand what you are referring to. At 1 yr, structurally, she could still be growing.

T


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Sounds like what you are describing as it extends out, the hipset (tilted pelvis) is usually what's off, steep croup, low tailset, legs under the dog rather then out back, without a level topline, etc.. I have found that with a lot of dogs, even at this age they will level out with time but may not ever fully balance front to back in height.

Even with that said, a tilted pelvis rarely self corrects over time. Chances are if you look closely enough one of the parents are structured similar and certainly if not, then a grandparent is.

Regardless, it's rarely problematic from a working perspective.


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## Elaine Matthys (May 18, 2008)

Depending on how the dog really looks, this could be no big deal or it could be that she's seriously structurally unsound, and there's no way to say for sure without good pictures of her.


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## lannie dulin (Sep 4, 2012)

Nicole Stark said:


> Sounds like what you are describing as it extends out, the hipset (tilted pelvis) is usually what's off, steep croup, low tailset, legs under the dog rather then out back, without a level topline, etc.. I have found that with a lot of dogs, even at this age they will level out with time but may not ever fully balance front to back in height.
> 
> Even with that said, a tilted pelvis rarely self corrects over time. Chances are if you look closely enough one of the parents are structured similar and certainly if not, then a grandparent is.
> 
> Regardless, it's rarely problematic from a working perspective.


Perfectly said, this is exactly what I see. Neither parent displays this, and she seems to move just fine. She actually looks/stands better when she is alert and working, but when she is relaxed and happily shaking her butt it is very obvious. I intend to have her OFA tested before starting any serious conditioning, but I thought I'd see if anyone had ran across this before. Your spot on with what you describe.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

pictures?

presa is supposed to be higher in the rear..

cant visualize what you are saying, if it is roach back, saddle back, or what..

pics...

PS..if it was me I would xray NOW...just because the dog is a Presa...


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## lannie dulin (Sep 4, 2012)

Joby Becker said:


> pictures?
> 
> presa is supposed to be higher in the rear..
> 
> ...


Nicole hit it right on the head. Read her post. I'll be X-raying her soon enough.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

lannie dulin said:


> Nicole hit it right on the head. Read her post. I'll be X-raying her soon enough.


read it... not normal fore sure


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## lannie dulin (Sep 4, 2012)

Joby Becker said:


> read it... not normal fore sure


Yeah, I know it's not normal, or I wouldn't post about it. The concern is working ability, and health. It sounds benign based on her response, but x-rays will be done anyway before she starts conditioning.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

lannie dulin said:


> Yeah, I know it's not normal, or I wouldn't post about it. The concern is working ability, and health. It sounds benign based on her response, but x-rays will be done anyway before she starts conditioning.


well we used to call it "crabbed over" if I know what you are describing, the Presa's power and strength comes from its rear. It would most certainly affect overall working effectiveness. 

doesnt mean the dog cant do work, just means he is not built for the work.


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## lannie dulin (Sep 4, 2012)

Joby Becker said:


> well we used to call it "crabbed over" if I know what you are describing, the Presa's power and strength comes from its rear. It would most certainly affect overall working effectiveness.
> 
> doesnt mean the dog cant do work, just means he is not built for the work.


Well considering Nicole didn't think it would interfer with working ability, I guess I'm back at the begining (considering mixed opinons). I posted to see if this was an easily identified issue or benefit, but it seems not. I guess I'll have to wait for x-rays to really get a warm fuzzy about working her. ](*,)


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## Elaine Matthys (May 18, 2008)

I wouldn't just be looking at x-rays. I've seen a lot of american showline GSDs that ofa'd well, but are so structurally unsound they can't run or jump. How this dog moves and stands is just as important as the x-rays.


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## lannie dulin (Sep 4, 2012)

Elaine Matthys said:


> I wouldn't just be looking at x-rays. I've seen a lot of american showline GSDs that ofa'd well, but are so structurally unsound they can't run or jump. How this dog moves and stands is just as important as the x-rays.


 
Yeah, note I said she moves just fine.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

In my experience dogs that do not stand like this when alert (they have a level topline) but do this as you described are just being submissive or slightly nervy.
You see it quite often in bully breeds and nervy dobermans.
I'm no vet or expert.


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## lannie dulin (Sep 4, 2012)

Matt Vandart said:


> In my experience dogs that do not stand like this when alert (they have a level topline) but do this as you described are just being submissive or slightly nervy.
> You see it quite often in bully breeds and nervy dobermans.
> I'm no vet or expert.


Very interesting...I hadn't thought of that, but it could be. She only postures like that with people. None of the other dogs get that response and back hunching when she greets them.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> read it... not normal fore sure


I don't know about that. It has to be on some level if I knew and described exactly what she has without even seeing the dog. Very common in DDB and a number of other molossers which many tend to be slightly higher in the rear - now mind you, dogs that fit that class that also have been AKC recognized for quiite some time we see far less of this in those breeds. The Bull Mastiff for example vs the Dogue de Bordeaux which this was very common with in the past. 

Heck, my Dutch has a slightly tilted pelvis and was structured for a while like the OP described. Then and to my surprise at about 18-20 months her front leveled out and the topline overall balanced out. She's still got a slightly steep croup and as the OP said of her own dog when standing alert she otherwise looks perfectly normal.

BTW the Dutch has been x rayed and her hips are not negatively impacted by her physical structure.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

lannie dulin said:


> Well considering Nicole didn't think it would interfer with working ability, I guess I'm back at the begining (considering mixed opinons). I posted to see if this was an easily identified issue or benefit, but it seems not. I guess I'll have to wait for x-rays to really get a warm fuzzy about working her. ](*,)


Lannie - I'm not going to pass that kind of judgement on your dog. It's really not for me to say without seeing the dog move anyway. But this I can tell you, I have had this show up in my own dogs and have literally put hundreds of miles on them in various terrain types and in all kinds of environments and haven't ever experienced an issue. I work mine differently then most of the sport people here and physically push them to find their limits (within reason). And, as I stated earlier I have seen dogs toplines change after a year of age and observed continued changes up until the dog turns 3.

I don't know what work you plan on doing with your dog. Depending upon what it is, structure could be the least of your concerns.

And if it helps, those dogs were all x rayed as well. IMO HD and what you are describing are not necessarily interrelated.


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## lannie dulin (Sep 4, 2012)

Nicole Stark said:


> Lannie - I'm not going to pass that kind of judgement on your dog. It's really not for me to say without seeing the dog move anyway. But this I can tell you, I have had this show up in my own dogs and have literally put hundreds of miles on them in various terrain types and in all kinds of environments and haven't ever experienced an issue. I work mine differently then most of the sport people here and physically push them to find their limits (within reason). And, as I stated earlier I have seen dogs toplines change after a year of age and observed continued changes up until the dog turns 3.
> 
> I don't know what work you plan on doing with your dog. Depending upon what it is, structure could be the least of your concerns.


Yeah, I understand the need for a disclaimer, lol. No worries, I wouldn't make an final decisions on a dog based on forum content. I'm looking to do schutzhund/PSA with her, so I need to do some serious cardio because she does get tired easy. Because of the breed I have let her chill out a lot on the exercise up to this point.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I see. If you want an answer to what you just posted, I have one for you. Several responses as a matter of fact. This I will say, if you are looking to engage me in a fool-hearted way then please don't waste my time. I'll leave this specific thread and say that you have an opportunity to be educated about a few things. Whether or not you choose to seize that opportunity is up to you.


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## lannie dulin (Sep 4, 2012)

Nicole Stark said:


> I see. If you want an answer to what you just posted, I have one for you. Several responses as a matter of fact. This I will say, if you are looking to engage me in a fool-hearted way then please don't waste my time. I'll leave this specific thread and say that you have an opportunity to be educated about a few things. Whether or not you choose to seize that opportunity is up to you.


Interesting...I didn't intend any insult in my post. What exactly did you find offensive?


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

lannie dulin said:


> Interesting...I didn't intend any insult in my post. What exactly did you find offensive?


Nothing. 

Now that I have said that go back and reread what I said. I said exactly what I meant. I thought I was pretty clear about what my intentions were. I was asking you about yours. Did you want input on what you said, or not?

I've put two minutes more into this thread than I needed to. If you were looking to become informed about something that you may be unaware of then you would have responded differently and so, clearly I have my answer. That works for me.

Good day to you and enjoy your pup.


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## lannie dulin (Sep 4, 2012)

Nicole Stark said:


> Nothing.
> 
> Now that I have said that go back and reread what I said. I said exactly what I meant. I thought I was pretty clear about what my intentions were. I was asking you about yours. Did you want input on what you said, or not?
> 
> ...


You obviously read insult where there was none and I even explained that without giving you push back. You seem to not want to admit that and instead assume the "teacher/student" thing even further. So thank you for your input I got what I needed out all this. I'm not sure what response you deem is necessary, but here is something for you to work on--not being an azz all the dam time. I don't care what you know or who you are you got no right to be an azz, Michael Ellis is heads and shoulders above anyone here, and he's not a fraction of the jerk you are.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I think you need to have someone that understands dog structure and movement take a good look at the dog. 
Those here could do a lot more with a bit of video in side, coming and going movement.


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## lannie dulin (Sep 4, 2012)

Bob Scott said:


> I think you need to have someone that understands dog structure and movement take a good look at the dog.
> Those here could do a lot more with a bit of video in side, coming and going movement.


fair statement, thank you.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

lannie dulin said:


> You obviously read insult where there was none and I even explained that without giving you push back. You seem to not want to admit that and instead assume the "teacher/student" thing even further. So thank you for your input I got what I needed out all this. I'm not sure what response you deem is necessary, but here is something for you to work on--not being an azz all the dam time. I don't care what you know or who you are you got no right to be an azz, Michael Ellis is heads and shoulders above anyone here, and he's not a fraction of the jerk you are.


=D>

Naw. 

Let's just say I got a tip on something that I wanted to test out for myself. For example, I can't be the only one who noticed that you didn't answer my question. I'm just curious, did you ever think to consider why your dog tires out easily? That issue aside, is taking it easy really necessary? If not, what do you need to know about or take into consideration when when exercising a young, growing, large breed of dog?

The 1st weekend I took my mastiff out she was 7 months old and put on 21 miles in 3 days. This was done with no prior conditioning. I simply was mindful of the ground, varied the pace, and paid careful attention to her footfalls, topline movement, and tail/head carriage, etc... Why did I bring this up? Because it's relevant to a statement you made about exercising your dog. Is it too soon or is there something else going on that makes you think it's too soon? People told me the same thing as well about exercising my dogs, especially my big ones. I decided to find out for myself. I put the time into the dogs, x rayed them (wrists, elbows, shoulders, knees and hips) and I did/do it more than once over the lifetime of the dog just to see if the ground work they do has any negative effects on them.

The dutch put in 12.6 miles last Saturday after weeks of being cooped up while I traveled out of state. 9 miles into the trip I see that she shows stronger than when she started. At this distance she's now showing commitment to the trail and manages to run faster and longer for sustained periods of time when the pace changes.

I haven't ran the dog since Oct when I put 60+ miles on her and the mastiff (over several days) yet, with no recent lead up physical conditioning she was just starting to hit her stride at about mile 9. Shouldn't she tire easily under those circumstances? What about the mastiff, did she tire easily at 7 months? No. What about at 7 years? No again.

I think that in order for me to be insulted by something you said we'd need to have some sort of prior engagement/dialogue and understanding between us for me to take offense to something you've said - because there's a legitimate chance that something you say at that point might or could be based off fact. I've never met or corresponded with you previously but I can respect the fact that you can't relate to or appreciate what I said. The reality is, you may be mistaken on all accounts. I guess it depends upon how you see or want to look at it.

You originally offered up some pieces of info that you appear to be slightly misinformed about, which if you hadn't objected to what I said you might have come to understand why your dog tires easily or whether or not it's time to start putting some thought into an exercise plan for her.

I appreciate the compliment about being an ass nevertheless. At one time I was interested in actively networking and making a few friends on this forum. That is no longer something that interests me, so you are absolutely right about one thing. I am, at this very moment, deliberately being insensitive and probably a bit rude as well. 

Maybe it's unfortunate that I don't particularly care if it bothers you that you can't see the point I was attempting to make. Or maybe I don't care because the internet has a way of making people appear to be a magnified version of who they think they are and this aspect alone wastes a lot of time for people with a genuine agenda and/or desire to "teach others".

Last, and let me say again I really just wondered if you wanted to gain some insight about a few items relating to your dog given some of the things you offered in your last statements about her. I got the feeling that you have been through similar discussions before and were ok with deflection or finding answers that suited you rather than showing openness or acceptance to what may actually fit the reality of things.

So, I'll do something here and make this right on some level. I accept responsibility for saying something that put you on the defensive or maybe better yet for saying something that rightfully could have been stated differently or in a manner that was more effective in piquing your interest. I put the screws to you a little bit because I wanted to see where it would go. Michael Ellis gets paid to teach others. Me, well I get paid to do a few things and putting the screws to people to get through the bullshit is just one of them. 

As we can see it didn't go very far, which is how I know that I got my answer. It was a simple question. Did you want input or not?


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

I agree with bob. a video or at least some pics would almost certainly clear this up as far as it can.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I have just seen this thread and would say that many Molossers and other large dogs seem to grow unevenly so that at 10-12 months they look like something out of a pantomime, i.e. two persons in a a horse's outfit, the rear end is higher until the dog has fully matured physically at around 4 years' old.

My Newfoundland (white + black (Landseer)) looked exactly like this at 10 months. As Nicole said, some Molossers are known to have a higher rear end - our Fila did.

However, without pictures, video, etc. and without specific descriptions of the dog, there cannot be a competent answer.

As far as the Presas here in Europe, Switzerland in particular, I would advise caution. Caution, because the Clubs are not very interested in the gait of the dog and the physical attributes regarding movement are always ignored - here they wish to present a heavyweight beauty to enhance an owner's garden as a guard dog but who *cannot* make it to the gate in 2 seconds.

I hope this state of affairs is different in the US.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

lannie dulin said:


> I don't care what you know or who you are you got no right to be an azz, Michael Ellis is heads and shoulders above anyone here, and he's not a fraction of the jerk you are.


Lannie that is the proverbial pot calling the kettle black right there.
People have rights to act like azzes if they choose too, you have proven that in the past. 

I saw you join and was giving you the benefit of the doubt in my mind here, like maybe you changed your ways a little. But it did not take long at all for you to insult a very long standing, super nice, and generous member of the forum, who was trying to help you..

On the other forum, YOUR trainer was supposedly MILES above and ahead of ANY member there, worldwide.

Now you come here making statements about the membership of THIS board. You have no clue who are members here, and it shows with your ignorant statements.

The membership here is very diverse, with quite a few people that have been involved in the breeding, training, decoying, and handling of dogs at the top echelons of all major dogsports, that have achieved much more than Micheal Ellis on the field, in the whleping box, handling dogs and in the protection equipment, to say that Micheal Ellis is head and shoulders above ANYONE here, is a very ignorant statement.

Post some pics and videos, and be a positive part of something, your conduct is unbecoming of a Navy man.


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## lannie dulin (Sep 4, 2012)

Joby Becker said:


> Lannie that is the proverbial pot calling the kettle black right there.
> People have rights to act like azzes if they choose too, you have proven that in the past.
> 
> I saw you join and was giving you the benefit of the doubt in my mind here, like maybe you changed your ways a little. But it did not take long at all for you to insult a very long standing, super nice, and generous member of the forum, who was trying to help you..
> ...


Lol, you really like to troll my forums where ever I go don't you? Don't make me spend time and $ to come straighten you out. Leave me alone and I won't come knocking on your door. I tried being nice to her and even clarified I meant no offense, but she continued with the insults, so yes I gave it back to her. You azz holes are amazing with amount of crap you think people should take from you.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

I concur, this is a boring sideline, I want to see the dog for information purposes.
Forums should be about learning not opinionating.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

lannie dulin said:


> * I tried being nice to her and even clarified I meant no offense, but she continued with the insults, so yes I gave it back to her*. You azz holes are amazing with amount of crap you think people should take from you.


 
If you did try to be nice, it was over my head!!!

Appears to me you came on here as Jeff would say, shopping for opinions and taking the one you like best. Get up a vid or pic, or if you're the sensitive sort, maybe not..

Informative post Nicole, many thanks!


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## lannie dulin (Sep 4, 2012)

maggie fraser said:


> If you did try to be nice, it was over my head!!!
> 
> Appears to me you came on here as Jeff would say, shopping for opinions and taking the one you like best. Get up a vid or pic, or if you're the sensitive sort, maybe not..
> 
> Informative post Nicole, many thanks!


I said "Interesting...I didn't intend any insult in my post. What exactly did you find offensive?"

She said "nothing", so there for her rant is unprovoked by her own omission. 

So there you go sense you missed it. 

Yes, I was shopping for opinion. Unless someone is a vet and going to review video and x-rays it is all opinion no matter what is supplied. I got what I wanted and thanked those that replied with something I found useful. All the rest of this is just people being azzholes.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

lannie dulin said:


> I said "Interesting...I didn't intend any insult in my post. What exactly did you find offensive?"
> 
> She said "nothing", so there for her rant is unprovoked by her own omission.
> 
> ...


Hey, don't you go calling me an azzhole, it's asshole! Plus we did have vets on here (maybe still do), it's kinda funny, what they have is an opinion too funnily enuff.

You may well find yahoo-answers more agreeable... there that's my opinion, I mean tip.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

By the way, if you're calling people "azzholes" you might be interested to know that you mean rear "angulation".


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Boring I wanna see pics


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Matt, I do as well. 

Lannie, why don't we all start over. Some of us are interested in seeing pictures and video of your dog. Will you oblige on this request?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

One quick addition.

My suggestion of xraying NOW, has nothing to do with the angulation, or how the dog looks. It was based on the fact that the dog is a Presa Canario period. The "breed" is rampant with HD. Better to know if something is gonna be wrong as early as possible, than to put hard work, time, and money into the dog, only to be disappointed finding out something that could have been found out earlier, it was meant to be helpful advice.


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## lannie dulin (Sep 4, 2012)

Nicole Stark said:


> Matt, I do as well.
> 
> Lannie, why don't we all start over. Some of us are interested in seeing pictures and video of your dog. Will you oblige on this request?


Yeah that's fair. I just got my baby back from the hospital, so I'll fit it in when I can.


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## lannie dulin (Sep 4, 2012)

Joby Becker said:


> One quick addition.
> 
> My suggestion of xraying NOW, has nothing to do with the angulation, or how the dog looks. It was based on the fact that the dog is a Presa Canario period. The "breed" is rampant with HD. Better to know if something is gonna be wrong as early as possible, than to put hard work, time, and money into the dog, only to be disappointed finding out something that could have been found out earlier, it was meant to be helpful advice.


 
That is my intention. I intend to get x-rays done before we start any conditioning. Up to this point we've only done light OB and drive work. She's just now getting to the age were I intend to spend some time developing her.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

lannie dulin said:


> Yeah that's fair. I just got my baby back from the hospital, so I'll fit it in when I can.


Is she alright?


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## lannie dulin (Sep 4, 2012)

Nicole Stark said:


> Is she alright?


Yeah, I'm sorry, the way I wrote that comes across wrong. We literally just had a baby and he was discharged yesterday.:grin:


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Well then, congratulation are in order.  Sleep while you can!


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

lannie dulin said:


> *That is my intention. I intend to get x-rays done before we start any conditioning.* Up to this point we've only done light OB and drive work. She's just now getting to the age were I intend to spend some time developing her.


I would start conditioning whether you intend to work her or not. it will only help to improve muscle structure around her hips and help mitigate any inherited problems.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Matt, earlier on in that "rant" that I posted, I offered examples about something that I felt might be useful for consideration in working with this dog. Lannie originally asked if her physical structure might be a problem from a working perspective. Given the dogs age and description of the problem it seemed plausible that she'd outgrow this and level out.

With that said, I also commented about her tiring easily. This is something that I would want to examine. Chances are if she's 2" off in the rear and possibly may be slightly titled in the pelvis, her gait could possibly look normal but be entirely inefficient due to her construction which is what's causing her to tire easily. 

I didn't want to read anything into what he said but I did offer examples of working my own dogs, young, older, unconditioned, further stating that they didn't tire easily. I mentioned it because he may want to think about that issue before he puts together a development plan for her. 

His original question about whether or not her structure would impact her working might have infact been answered by his later offering that she tires easily. Course, his "easily" might be after 10 miles on the bike whereas mine would be taken off an initial assessment after 3 miles of trail work at 6-9 mph with some variance bringing the dog up to 10-12 even 18-25 mph for short periods of time. A standard work out for my dogs is generally between 5-7 miles but at the onset of the season I start wth an initial assessment with a distance of about 1.5 miles, the next day I will increase it to 3 and then go from there.


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