# K9 bites cop, cop shoots/kills K9



## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/12/17/BA6L1B5PU2.DTL




Alameda police dog bites cop, is shot to death
Henry K. Lee, Chronicle Staff Writer

Thursday, December 17, 2009

ALAMEDA -- An Alameda police dog trying to flush out a burglary suspect was shot and killed by an officer Thursday after the dog attacked her and bit her arm, a police spokesman said.

Billy, a Belgian Malinois, and his handler were among those responding to a burglary at the Coast Guard recruiting center at 660 Central Ave. shortly before 6:15 a.m., police Lt. Bill Scott said.

Billy bit a uniformed officer assisting on the call. The dog did not let go when his handler ordered him to do so, and the officer being bitten shot him three times, killing him, Scott said.

The officer, whose name was not released, has been with the department two years. She was treated for bite wounds to her left arm at Highland Hospital in Oakland and was released.

Immediately after the dog was shot, burglary suspect Douglas Wayne Kirk, 56, emerged with items he had allegedly stolen but refused to surrender, Scott said. He was arrested after a brief struggle and was treated at Alameda Hospital for minor lacerations, police said.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Hey Matt, someone beat you to it.8)


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

I even scanned through the threads to check before I posted... I guess "Oops" wasnt much of a tip off




....orig thread for any comments



http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f18/oops-13196/


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Howard Knauf said:


> Hey Matt, someone beat you to it.8)


 
LOL


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## Eugene duplissis (Sep 23, 2009)

I have been bit three times (real bites) now during training, and never imagined shooting the dog. It doesn't hurt so bad that you can't wait the 5 seconds till the handler gets the dog off. If she wasn't being an idiot she probably would not have gotten bit in the first place. They train all new police officers in the state to stay BEHIND the handler in a building search. We have to jump in front of our dogs occasionally, but this incident just sounds stupid to me. 

Terry Fleck said this stuff happens more and more. People don't seem to be able to handle pain any more.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

The officer that kills my K9-dog because he/she is bitten for being stupid, beter be bullitproof his/herself....:twisted::twisted:

Dick


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

WTF goes on with cops and dogs?!!! Whether it be their k9 officer partner or somebody's pet they are just not good with dogs on the scene! Where are the professionals?!!! No offense to any of the k9 officers out there that actually know what they're doing with a dog, but to the rest of your fellow k9 officers YOU SUCK!!! Almost every k9 officer I've seen handle a dog is HORRIBLE at it. I can count the amount of k9 officers I've seen that are pretty good with it on one hand. Maybe I haven't seen enough. I'll keep looking, but SHEESH!


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

I watched a arrest a number of years ago in Minneapolis the cop and his dog showed up and other officers were jumping up on there cars for safety the officer that had the suspect was trying to cuff the guy and was distracted and look worried when he seen the dog they told him he had to put the dog away.


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## Carole Goetzelmann (Jun 7, 2007)

My neighbors, both husband and wife, are both local LEOs. I was talking with her about this year's shooting of the 5 pound dog by the Blue Ash, Ohio, police. (5 miles from where I live, not where she works, though.) She said, as LEOs, that they get zero training on how to handle dogs, strays or otherwise. There's no animal control in our area either. She was once given a dog control pole to deal with a dog and was told to work it out. 

http://www.wcpo.com/news/local/stor...o-Shoot-Small-Dog/i86Scq56PE6GBz0bRSbG3w.cspx

And I also feel terrible for the family who's dog was shot during a traffic stop. 

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/01/09/police.kill.dog/index.html


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Without knowing all the facts it is hard to figure out who is to blame, to move this forward onto how it can be corrected and avoided. I have come close to accidental bites on fellow MPs. I have no heartburn on someone protecting themselves if I can't do my job properly. I had a couple dogs that I told people to shoot if they were loose and I was down. I also attempted to socialize those dogs too, and get team mates around the dogs working. I get attached to my dogs, but they are a tool, and if a fellow team member can prevent getting hurt, and I need medical attention, well...

Although dogs are less than lethal, if you have a serious one get ahold of you, it is pretty understandable to want to get them off, especially if you are going in after a bad guy or sitting on a perimeter. Imagine it from the perspective of not being around them training all the time. Handler talking his/her dog up to being more than it is....

It is just too bad that something as simple as a 6' leash, long line or some in-service training might have prevented this.


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## Nikki M Williams (Jul 17, 2009)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> The officer that kills my K9-dog because he/she is bitten for being stupid, beter be bullitproof his/herself....:twisted::twisted:
> 
> Dick


dittio


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## Steve Foss (Nov 23, 2009)

The K9 unit should not be a bargaining unit move where seniority dictates who gets the position. This unfortunately is usually how it is in the United States. Second, training standards are way too lax.

A close friend that I went through POST with ended up taking an offer with the New Orleans Police Department just a few months before Hurricane Katrina hit. They worked for months without electricity and light and things began getting really too careless in how everyone did their job. He was part of a team doing a building search and K9 ended up arriving late to the call. Whether he announced before he released the dog into the building with several other officers already inside wasn't known. The dog found my friend first and took an inside thigh bite. The dog tore into his femoral artery causing massive amount of blood loss. He nearly died. He was hospitalized for about 3 months following and has sustained permanent nerve damage. 

Working dogs is a passion, but too many here in the U.S. view it as too much work and are too lazy to do proper training or sue the department for more money because they also feed the dog. Its like an officer that is a passionate shooter in his spare time yet submits OT requests for it.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Steve Foss said:


> Working dogs is a passion, but too many here in the U.S. view it as too much work and are too lazy to do proper training or sue the department for more money because they also feed the dog. Its like an officer that is a passionate shooter in his spare time yet submits OT requests for it.



I'm curious. Since you speak with a voice of authority, how many deparments are K9 a "bargained" position? How many are "too lazy to do proper training". How many are suing their departments for extra money to "feed" their dog. I've been a program manager of a 45 dog police canine Unit for over 20 years. I have a pretty good idea, I'm curious to know your experiences. I'd also like to know how many departments pay their people OT to shoot -- off duty. Interesting concept. 

DFrost


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## Steve Foss (Nov 23, 2009)

This is what I have seen in Ohio, and the discussions that I have had with area department heads that worry about the implications of what a K9 unit bring. Officers have sued their departments under FLSA, pretty common if you do a quick search on Google. I actually did a paper on this a long time ago and did a thorough search with Lexis Nexis for legal case law. Basically said department gives K9 handler take home car to transport his partner home with him. Although the handler must still report at the standard time for roll call he is now claiming time to and from home as OT. As well as time for training, feeding, grooming and such. Most departments write something into the agreement that officer agrees to a flat 2, 5 or 10 hours of OT weekly regardless of how much time is actually invested. But these agreements have faced continued challenges under FLSA. If memory serves me, the Ohio Highway Patrol's bargaining unit granted handlers somewhere around 15hrs of flat OT weekly. May be different now. 

Most "large" cities are covered under a collective bargaining agreement which stipulate how promotions and transfers are dealt with. Generally the postings are internal and is considered a promotion because they come with a bump in pay due to OT. Lets say you have two officers, with equal education, equal performance. One has 5 years vested the other 3. Both bid for the new open K9 handler spot. Officer with 3 years experience may have handled dogs before and the officer with 5 years none. Who do you think will get this position? I guarantee you the officer with 5 years, if not they will face a grievance. Is this right, no. But this is generally how these openings are handled. It comes down to money basically, because there is a high probability that the junior officer may now be making more money than the officer with 5 years in.

The issue with shooting was just thrown in there. Basically saying the officer should enjoy being a K9 handler. Many officers shoot in their free time, it would be bogus for them to claim this as OT just as taking care of their dog at home. They WANTED the position of K9 handler, with it come more responsibility. Officers should be physically fit, should they be compensated for running on their days off?


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Steve Foss said:


> This is what I have seen in Ohio, and the discussions that I have had with area department heads that worry about the implications of what a K9 unit bring. Officers have sued their departments under FLSA, pretty common if you do a quick search on Google. I actually did a paper on this a long time ago and did a thorough search with Lexis Nexis for legal case law. Basically said department gives K9 handler take home car to transport his partner home with him. Although the handler must still report at the standard time for roll call he is now claiming time to and from home as OT. As well as time for training, feeding, grooming and such. Most departments write something into the agreement that officer agrees to a flat 2, 5 or 10 hours of OT weekly regardless of how much time is actually invested. But these agreements have faced continued challenges under FLSA. If memory serves me, the Ohio Highway Patrol's bargaining unit granted handlers somewhere around 15hrs of flat OT weekly. May be different now.
> 
> Most "large" cities are covered under a collective bargaining agreement which stipulate how promotions and transfers are dealt with. Generally the postings are internal and is considered a promotion because they come with a bump in pay due to OT. Lets say you have two officers, with equal education, equal performance. One has 5 years vested the other 3. Both bid for the new open K9 handler spot. Officer with 3 years experience may have handled dogs before and the officer with 5 years none. Who do you think will get this position? I guarantee you the officer with 5 years, if not they will face a grievance. Is this right, no. But this is generally how these openings are handled. It comes down to money basically, because there is a high probability that the junior officer may now be making more money than the officer with 5 years in.
> 
> The issue with shooting was just thrown in there. Basically saying the officer should enjoy being a K9 handler. Many officers shoot in their free time, it would be bogus for them to claim this as OT just as taking care of their dog at home. They WANTED the position of K9 handler, with it come more responsibility. Officers should be physically fit, should they be compensated for running on their days off?


And how do you justify your existence ?? never goofed off at work ?? Never cheated just a little bit on your taxes ?? never boinked a neighbors wife ??


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

David , don't waste your energy on all this broadbrushing of Police K9 Handlers .Been there done that and it's gotten pretty old .

Consider the source , you know those "Sport and PPD people" . The ones who think they know about our dogs and job because their dogs bite sleeves too and because of this they are now even knowledgable enough to tell us about our tactics . 

The same ones who think all Police Dogs suck because they've seen a few (out of the several hundreds working the street) or because their Training Director told them so . 

I've been around and have seen MANY Sport and PPD dogs in action . ALOT of them suck big time too . I've even had some of the handlers of these fear biting wonders tell me how to train my dog and about how good their dogs would be as a PSD .


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

Law Enforcement incidents are tense, uncertain, and rapidly evolving. … shit happens….sometimes bad shit. Happens to officers … happens to dogs….that’s just how it is. And there are A LOT of officers terrified of dogs. Murphy’s law rears it’s ugly head in policing often.

As far as the FLSA stuff goes and thoughts on how PD’s work… I’m closing in on year 16. I have never met anyone who filed a FLSA claim. I have never met anyone who got a dog based on seniority alone. There are whole states where collective bargaining is illegal…. I have

 yet to get more than 4 or 5 hours of overtime from my dog in 7 years…. I must be doing something wrong.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Wow Matt we must be exceptions . Same thing here . I love my job and I don't know of any of the guys and gals working here (out of the 18 to 20 in the unit) hating their jobs . Most leave this unit kicking and screaming . Seniority don't matter either getting in . A whole lot of factors go into picking a handler . I had 4 years in when I got in and their where several with many more years on then I .

Never saw a FLSA claim filed by anyone in my unit in the 12 years I've been doing this and noone I know that has been here longer can remember the last time one was filed . 

We do bitch to ourselves (noone else will listen)however about not getting overtime . We are the one unit in the department where the expectation is to change our working hours in order to avoid overtime and the handlers usually do it willingly because it usually means it's for a chance at getting to use their dogs . We are also the only unit that doesn't get additional premium pay for working on the SWAT team also .


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## Steve Foss (Nov 23, 2009)

If you love what you do, and put that into your work than fantastic. Keep it up. That is the way it is supposed to be. I support more utilization of K9 patrol units due to their effectiveness in so many different facets. I can tell you that departments have disbanded their K9 units due to OT, or the fear of action under FLSA. Not that it is logical. I have known chiefs and mayors to shy away from starting a K9 unit after talks with their legal division. Whether or not you have experienced FLSA claims doesn't mean they do not exist, I think they are total shit. I had to buff my boots to parade gloss every night in training, shave my head, shave my face, starch my pants. Not to mention crap you do after hitting the road. I wasn't paid for this time, yet it was required of me so I feel OT for dog handlers is bullshit. The work shift can be manipulated completely to avoid all OT by allowing time during shift for in-service. 

"Consider the source , you know those "Sport and PPD people" . The ones who think they know about our dogs and job because their dogs bite sleeves too and because of this they are now even knowledgable enough to tell us about our tactics . "

This is the oldest, weakest argument I have heard amongst officers that develop a special attitude about their ability. Don't assume the private sector is any less knowledgeable than you, or less skillful. This is most notable in firearms. So many officers would act like they were above the instructions of private instructors. I almost had my head blown off by a dumb female deputy at range day.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Steve anyone that has known me on this forum knows I have said positive things about Sport and PPD folks even though I've seen a ton of shitty ones . 

Why ? because I've seen alot of good ones too . You sure did take the bait though . I get where you coming from though . You can broadbrush PSD handlers but we can't do the same . That's cool though don't really want to . Just wanted to see if you would get all defensive about it and I wasn't disappointed .

Wow , you wrote a paper about FELSA and could find how many examples of K9 units making claims ? On the internet no less . All this out of how many Police , Sheriff and other Law Enforcement agencies that have K9 units ? 

Stick to polishing your boots . Sounds like you know way more about that then you do about PSD stuff .


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## Becky Shilling (Jul 11, 2006)

Carole Goetzelmann said:


> And I also feel terrible for the family who's dog was shot during a traffic stop.
> 
> http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/01/09/police.kill.dog/index.html


 A follow-up on this story

http://www.wbir.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=55318


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Becky Shilling said:


> A follow-up on this story
> 
> http://www.wbir.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=55318


I'd comment on that story except that it was my agency that was involved. It is however a good example of being able to review an officers decision around a table with a cup of coffee in a comfortable office instead of on the side of the road, at night. The original call, the reason this vehicle was stopped, was that it had just committed an armed robbery. That's not important though. 

DFrost


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Jim Nash said:


> David , don't waste your energy on all this broadbrushing of Police K9 Handlers .Been there done that and it's gotten pretty old .
> 
> Consider the source ,.


Yeah, I know. I'm hoping though I can just give a different perspective to what people read in the paper or find with their thorough research on the internet. I still wasn't given any specifics, just this is the way it's done in Ohio. I can also read, that once again, people that are police don't deserve the same protection under the law as other citizens. FSLA was not written for police officers, but to ensure people were compensated for work performed. 

DFrost


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## Steve Foss (Nov 23, 2009)

You can read what I write and feel somehow I am speaking of you, where I never mentioned you. You can say I am painting a broad picture of all K9 handlers when in fact, again I am not. You asked me of specifics of agencies that the K9 handler position was a bargained position. If you work in any type of government position you will know damn well when it comes to classified or union positions seniority beats out. This is unfortunate. I understand not everyone is union or has a collective bargaining agreement. But it is the majority of law enforcement positions with the rank of Sergeant or below. 

I would never second guess an officers decision from the comfort of my home or office, hindsight is 20/20 and we don't always know what was going through their head. Sometimes though it is painstakingly obvious that they f*cked the pooch. Training for law enforcement in the United States is nearly non-existent compared to the rest of the world. Somehow people always believe that we are right because we are Americans. On average in the United States peace officer training is roughly 500-700 hours in training. That is between 12.5 and 17.5 weeks of training if done full time. Firearms time in Ohio was only about 40, might be more now. Of which was collectively timed based on simply being present while others qualified. Each state adopts its own standards for K9's and their certification. In Europe for example the average to become a police officer is 2-4 years of full time training. To be a K9 handler this also requires additional school and training.

My objection has nothing to do with the people who are actually doing the job with the lack of training. It is the system that doesn't better prepare them. Law enforcement are poorly paid and disregarded and are often cut first in budget cuts. They only receive notoriety when something goes wrong, this is sad. How quickly after September 11th, 2001 people forget the ones who do the job. I am not the person that you should be attacking.


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## David Feliciano (Oct 31, 2008)

typical...


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Working dogs is a passion, but too many here in the U.S. view it as too much work and are too lazy to do proper training or sue the department for more money because they also feed the dog. Its like an officer that is a passionate shooter in his spare time yet submits OT requests for it.[/quote]

Steve what is the experience that allows for you to say the US guys are “lazy” compared to other countries. Have you worked around the world with K9 cops? Something you heard or read?


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Becky Shilling said:


> A follow-up on this story
> 
> http://www.wbir.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=55318


 
Does anyone know if this cop was fired or is he still a cop?


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

WTF would anyone want to break into a Coast Guard recruiting office.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Chris McDonald said:


> Does anyone know if this cop was fired or is he still a cop?


He's still a cop. 

DFrost


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Steve Foss said:


> You can read what I write and feel somehow I am speaking of you, where I never mentioned you. You can say I am painting a broad picture of all K9 handlers when in fact, again I am not. You asked me of specifics of agencies that the K9 handler position was a bargained position. If you work in any type of government position you will know damn well when it comes to classified or union positions seniority beats out. This is unfortunate. I understand not everyone is union or has a collective bargaining agreement. But it is the majority of law enforcement positions with the rank of Sergeant or below.
> .


In your first post you said: " The K9 unit should not be a bargaining unit move where seniority dictates who gets the position. This unfortunately is usually how it is in the United States. Second, training standards are way too lax." Now you say you weren't painting a broad picture. I guess if you are speaking of the "world" and the U.S. is only part of that world, relatively speaking you would be correct. I'm speaking only of the U. S. so the words; "how it is in the United States" seems a bit broad to me. 

You also said in your first post: "Working dogs is a passion, but too many here in the U.S. view it as too much work and are too lazy to do proper training or sue the department for more money because they also feed the dog." I ask for specifics of the "too many in the U. S. view as too much work". You gave me one example in Ohio and an example of N.O. where an officer was severely injured. Of course we don't know the N. O. incident was totally the fault of the dog, training or the canine officer, but even if it was, that's two incidents. I have 45 dogs, so it's less than 10% just using my unit to compare it with. 

As far as taking it personal, no sir. I on occasion do like to challenge comments that take broad swipes at law enforcement K9. I have spent a good number of years doing this job. I'm proud of what I and fellow officers have accomplished. Have we been perfect? absolutely not. However, I've never been too lazy to do the work nor have I done it solely for the money. IN fact, I don't know that many rich cops, certainly not where I'm from. No complaints though, I knew what the department paid when I hired on, it didn't come as a surprise. 

At any rate, I know a at least a couple of hundred canine officers that would be insulted if I told them they were too lazy to train. We joke about the money so I couldn't even piss them off teasing them about that. I think us old backwoods country dog trainers with sport throw aways and imports no one else wants do a fair job. By the way, this whole state is a right to work state. We have no bargaining agency. Can't speak for the rest of them. Civil service covers LT's and below not Sgt. , in this state. I was in the military, and with another federal unit before I transfered to the state. Neither the military or the federal unit I was with selected dog handlers based solely on seniority. We don't select handlers based on seniority either. It would be used as a tie breaker during the selection process. 

You cited canine officers suing their department for compensation. If your employer was violating federal law and not paying you something you were entitled to, would you allow that to continue without saying anything? Some police officers have elected to not allow that to happen. I can't argue with that. Keep in mind that law was not made for police dog handlers. I guess the government just happen to think they have some of the same rights as other types of employees. Who'd a thunk it. 

DFrost


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

David Frost said:


> He's still a cop.
> 
> DFrost


No cop basing intended. But that guy should have been replaced.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

I didn't see the video? is there a good link to it?


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

I haven’t seen the video in a long time, im sure someone has a link


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

It really doesn't matter, now that I think about it. I wanted to see it to make my own observations. But they would be the same see it or not. Cop went home. End of story. It's a good day, even if a family lost a beloved pet. Very sorry for their loss and what that cop (might) have to live with doing it.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> It really doesn't matter, now that I think about it. I wanted to see it to make my own observations. But they would be the same see it or not. Cop went home. End of story. It's a good day, even if a family lost a beloved pet. Very sorry for their loss and what that cop (might) have to live with doing it.


 
Maybe you should see video. To me it’s not just the shooting of a family dog wagging its tail that was the only problem; it was the poor decision making that lead up to the loss of dog that is the problem. If you think the government pulling over an innocent family, treating them like criminals then shooting there dog is a “good day” you’re a fool.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Chris McDonald said:


> Maybe you should see video. To me it’s not just the shooting of a family dog wagging its tail that was the only problem; it was the poor decision making that lead up to the loss of dog that is the problem. If you think the government pulling over an innocent family, treating them like criminals then shooting there dog is a “good day” you’re a fool.


 
Without having any more information than a video that you watched a while back, and making a decision based on that. What does that make you?? Three sides to every story. Their side, your side, and the truth.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

It really doesn't matter, now that I think about it.
It's a good day

What about the fact that large sum of our tax money was given to the family for the actions of the cop by a jury? To me that proves very poor decisions were made, if this guy flipped burgers he would canned. But because of people like you he is still protecting and serving rather than being replaced by better. You brain washed fool, you’re the kind that would have been convinced Hitler was doing a good thing. 
A “good day” you fool! Im glad you thought about it 
The link was provided in this thread http://www.wbir.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=55318


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## Dwyras Brown (Nov 21, 2008)

Chris McDonald do me a favor and apply, get the job, then make it thru training. Then tell me how easy it is. Most people won't Monday morning quarterback a construction worker(you), but they will a cop or soldier. When the shit hits the fan a lot of people want someone to come save them, but will say how would have done it different and better if they were responding.


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## James Lechernich (Oct 20, 2009)

Is this the video? 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lv0T2X1dXcI

The audio is muffled so it's hard(for me) to make out what's being said in reference to the dog but I think that under the circumstances the trooper's decision to shoot was reasonable. I know there have been similar incidents where LE officers have opted to use tazers or simply grab hold of a dog(I'm thinking of the Texas pit bull video) but each situation is unique so I don't think you can draw objective comparisons.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Chris McDonald said:


> It really doesn't matter, now that I think about it.
> It's a good day
> 
> What about the fact that large sum of our tax money was given to the family for the actions of the cop by a jury? To me that proves very poor decisions were made, if this guy flipped burgers he would canned. But because of people like you he is still protecting and serving rather than being replaced by better. You brain washed fool, you’re the kind that would have been convinced Hitler was doing a good thing.
> ...


_We are going to disagree here. Me non less passionate, just going to try a little less name calling. However I understand you are passionate about it and I don't mind your name calling. You are expressing yourself how we all can as Americans verbally. _

_What I said "It really doesn't matter, now that I think about it. I wanted to see it to make my own observations. But they would be the same see it or not. Cop went home. End of story. It's a good day, even if a family lost a beloved pet. Very sorry for their loss and what that cop (might) have to live with doing it."_

_Chris. You are doing a good job of doing what the media does. *You cut my post down to what you wanted to use to represent your point. *_

_Not that a family lost a beloved pet, not that the cop has to live with what he's done. And that is why I said what I said. It doesn't matter what I think. But I have had to make hard decisions quickly. _


_Tax money spent. Guy made a decision. Someone said it was wrong and the family was given a shitload of money. Why can't you continue on with guy kept his job, therefore he must not have done anything worth firing, and the dog was worth the amount to a family. Here is something to change your thinking. What if he has made a hundred such decisions and 99 were right. Not saying this one was wrong or right, just that he has made a hundred, and 1 was deemed bad. Pretty good odds, dealing with a gun and i wouldn't crucify him._

_If he flipped burgers, he would have been fired for serving the wrong burger by your mentality. A cop doesn't flip burgers, He changes lives. That is how it is. His decisions are way more important, every day, than a burger flipper (god, please don't let someone attack me for bashing burger flippers)_

_I suppose you'd like to see the guy get bit, then kill the dog. For that, you are wrong. And this guy was a back up guy anyway. He didn't make the stop. didn't have all the facts. Just had a dog charging him._

_Take a deep breath and realize that you might change my *opinion* if you argue it well. My Dad says only fools are positive about something. So sure that they can't be wrong that they don't keep their eyes open and listen. I could be convinced the cop might be wrong with evidence. Nothing that you can show to me._


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Thaks for your posting of the video James.

I didn't see any tail wagging...


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Dwyras, the problem is the only reason shit hit the fan is because of him. I don’t know what you are speaking about but if you consider pulling someone out of their car and shooting there dog “saving them” then we think a bit different, please don’t save me. I am not playing Monday quarter back and I never said I would have done ant thing different or better. But I am saying when someone does their job really bad there should be severe consequences. I have many friends that are cops in different locations and they all know of a few that they work with that are POS but nothing can be done about it. As a little scrub tax payer I would like to see the POS fired and replaced with better as would my cop friends. I don’t know why this is a bad thing to say? Why does everyone make a million excesses why they should not be? To say what happened in that video is a “good day” is foolish. If you think what happened in that video was a “good day” than good for you. I’ll give the benefit of the drought to the police every time, but when someone is a proven failure at their job they should be replaced with better


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

James Lechernich said:


> Is this the video?
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lv0T2X1dXcI
> 
> The audio is muffled so it's hard(for me) to make out what's being said in reference to the dog but I think that under the circumstances the trooper's decision to shoot was reasonable. I know there have been similar incidents where LE officers have opted to use tazers or simply grab hold of a dog(I'm thinking of the Texas pit bull video) but each situation is unique so I don't think you can draw objective comparisons.


Yes, that's the one. I only remind everyone the stop was made because that specific car was reportedly used in an armed robbery just a few miles west. It was headed east. Things are a lot safer when you know there is not threat. Safer still when sitting around the computer drinking a cold or hot one in the safety of your home. Other than that, I really can't comment. Our department was one of the agencies involved.

DFrost


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## James Lechernich (Oct 20, 2009)

David Frost said:


> Yes, that's the one. I only remind everyone the stop was made because that specific car was reportedly used in an armed robbery just a few miles west. It was headed east. Things are a lot safer when you know there is not threat. Safer still when sitting around the computer drinking a cold or hot one in the safety of your home. Other than that, I really can't comment. Our department was one of the agencies involved.
> 
> DFrost


Granted, you're probably not permitted to comment about even this, but I'll ask anyway. Was there something contrary to policy regarding their felony stop? Again, the audio is muffled but I'm pretty sure I heard the trooper(s) inform the couple as to why they were stopped and being detained in such a manner, etc. It's unfortunate they were unlucky that night, both for being stopped and losing their dog, but based on the video I don't see where anyone's rights were infringed upon.

@Dave Colborn; No problem!


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> _We are going to disagree here. Me non less passionate, just going to try a little less name calling. However I understand you are passionate about it and I don't mind your name calling. You are expressing yourself how we all can as Americans verbally. _
> 
> _What I said "It really doesn't matter, now that I think about it. I wanted to see it to make my own observations. But they would be the same see it or not. Cop went home. End of story. It's a good day, even if a family lost a beloved pet. Very sorry for their loss and what that cop (might) have to live with doing it."_
> 
> ...


Very respectful not deserved answer, not trying to change your opinion, don’t want to see anyone get bit, all for every officer to go home safe every day.
The dog being shot is the small part of the screw up to me, an innocent family handcuffed and treated as they were is the bigger screw up. 
My problem with you is you don’t see that as a “bad day”. I would have some respect if you said I screwed up it really wasn’t all too good of a day. But as you say we are all allowed our opinions


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Chris McDonald said:


> Very respectful not deserved answer, not trying to change your opinion, don’t want to see anyone get bit, all for every officer to go home safe every day.
> The dog being shot is the small part of the screw up to me, an innocent family handcuffed and treated as they were is the bigger screw up.
> My problem with you is you don’t see that as a “bad day”. I would have some respect if you said I screwed up it really wasn’t all too good of a day. But as you say we are all allowed our opinions


Now we are to the meat of it, and we still disagree.

Stopping the wrong vehicle and doing a felony traffic stop happens. I have done it myself a couple times. No one knows, Like David Frost pointed out, at the time, that a situation is not as volatile as it could be. The family/suspected armed robbers were handled well.

The dog could have turned out three ways. Shot, not shot no bite, or the officer going home bit. Not worth number two to have number three a distinct possibility. And..If number three happens, that guy could have been retired and an astronomical ammount rightly paid to him for getting bit on duty.

Still not saying who is right or wrong. I don't know from the video.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Chris those stops happen all the time and should be handled in that manner . Different agencies have different ways of performing a felony stop but in this case it certainly warranted a felony stop . 

It was believed to be a robbery suspect vehicle . They performed the felony stop due to the possible threat (guns) . It's too bad our society is that violent that we (Law Enforcement) have to protect our selves , to investigate and determine if the vehicle or occupants are the ones we are looking for but that's reality . As long as those who are innocent in that situation aren't hurt or arrested wrongly for the crime it's not a problem with the courts . We need to do that to stay safe and we need to stop vehicles fitting the discription of vehicle containing violent criminals in order to find them and take them off the streets . 

If we could only stop vehicles we knew for SURE were the offending parties alot of violent criminals would still be on the stree committing crimes . As for the video , too crappy quality to say anything . I can't see if that dog was aggressive or friendly . All I can see is a grainy picture of a dog running at an officer .


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Dave, I have not seen that video in a long time. I forgot there were so many on officers on site, and I forgot the dog was the little thing it was. Understanding hindsight is 20/20 and I am not qualified to be playing arm chair quarter back, but maybe it could have turned out 4 ways? Maybe someone could have shut the door? Again that just my untrained opinion. 
After seeing it I will still say whoever was running the show should be shit canned or at least demoted to shit bird. I don’t know how often if ever a cop can be demoted, but in almost every non gov job if you screw up bad it costs you. Somehow the gov has pretty much made themselves immune to this of at least much closer to immune than the rest of us. I’ll say it again that my cop friends think it as well. It just amazes me how you can read what was presented and consider it a good day.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

David Frost said:


> Yes, that's the one. I only remind everyone the stop was made because that specific car was reportedly used in an armed robbery just a few miles west. It was headed east. Things are a lot safer when you know there is not threat. Safer still when sitting around the computer drinking a cold or hot one in the safety of your home. Other than that, I really can't comment. Our department was one of the agencies involved.
> 
> DFrost


 
Cold one!

Needed it after shoveling all this snow, just when I get done a lady in a small car gets stuck at the corner of my house, had to shovel her out too. Us NJ people aint good in this kind of weather.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Chris it shows you aren't aware of our safety issues . 

Allowing someone the officer believes at the time is a possible robbery suspect involving guns to go back to "shut the door" is allowing that occupant access to the car and to possible weapons . It's a judgement call . 

In this case if the officer allowed him to do that it would have turned out fine . Knowing what we know NOW (not at that very moment) . But the officer/s on scene at that time didn't have the advantage of monday morning quarterbacking it . It was going down right then and there . They didn't know if they weren't involved or actually armed suspects . If it had been the suspects , allowing them to go back to "shut the door" could have had some deadly consequences .


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## Becky Shilling (Jul 11, 2006)

James Lechernich said:


> The audio is muffled so it's hard(for me) to make out what's being said in reference to the dog but I think that under the circumstances the trooper's decision to shoot was reasonable.


Reasonable would have been for one of the officers to _simply close the car door when begged to do so_. Then the problem would never have occurred. What possible harm could there have been in simply closing the dang car door?


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

There was a training video I've seen years ago where a young officer was shoot and killed by an old WWII vet . He allowed the suspect to go back to his truck and digg around . I was told that this officer had been counciled earlier about being too aggressive . I can't find it on youtube . 

This old guy came out with an old military rifle and gunned the kid down . 

The young wounded officers screams as the suspect comes around the squad car still sticks in my head and it effects my discissions on allowing possible violent suspects access to things . 

I'm not saying I or some other officer would have allowed the occupant to shut the door in the video in question . I may have and I may not have but I would have known I was taking a big chance . I certainly don't blame any officer for not allowing them to shut the door .

Here's one where the screaming touches a nerve but not nearly as horrible as hearing that other poor kid die . But it shows how fast things happen and how tough things are to control . It also shows how violent and deadly WE know our job is . 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cB2U...0F7B361C&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=22


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Jim I aint saying I am aware of your safety issues, but shutting the door can still be listed as one of the possible dog out comes. Aint saying its gona be used and you can make all the reasons why it was not but it still is a viable outcome to list. Playing arm chair quarter back I can say it might have been better to shot the dog than let it run in traffic and cause an accident and kill people. That happy ass “good day” comment got me going. Understand what he was getting it was still foolish; I had to screw with him a bit.


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## James Lechernich (Oct 20, 2009)

Becky Shilling said:


> Reasonable would have been for one of the officers to _simply close the car door when begged to do so_. Then the problem would never have occurred. What possible harm could there have been in simply closing the dang car door?


It's just speculation, but perhaps as a diversion to escape or draw a weapon? 

And while we're pointing fingers, couldn't any of the occupants have closed their doors as a course of habit upon exiting the vehicle? Are the troopers going to use deadly force for a split second of non-compliance??


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

No Chris my fault for expecting you to understand how difficult these situations are . I knew I should have stayed out of it . Plain and simple you can't understand unless you've been there . 

Become a cop and you will realize how stupid you sound . I wish it was as simple as you all make it out to be . My job would be alot easier .


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Jim, I am certainly not wishing harm to any officer and understand the job can be dangerous, and this can be taken in way not meant, but I feel the safety/ danger card is played a bit too often. I am a believer in numbers and many jobs have many more deaths and injuries per hour than being a cop. I think one is road construction guys. Unfortunately it is part of the job they signed up for. I know of several deaths in NJ in commercial roofing. You sinned up for a job that is occasionally dangerous. 
My point being where does it stop? How did we go from the hero cop of the Texas tower who did what he did not knowing what he was going to run into, to the cop that showed up at Columbine and got the hell out of there because he heard gun shots (kids being killed). To the 1000 of government officers who surrounded the school and did nothing for hours? All the government guys went home alive but it doesn’t mean it was a good day to me. I did not check the facts on Columbine so I might be off a bit, but you get my point. 
This is a dog board, but I am interested in the answers. I’ll give you guys the last comment here if you would like to make one.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Becky they are certainly right in that it is easy to play arm chair quarter back.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Chris , I have no good answers for you . It's a violent world and violence is hard to deal with without using violence back many times . 

Won't even waste my time on your overly simplistic remarks about Columbine . 

Thing is I see way more great things done by Officers everyday then the mistakes they make . But you wouldn't know it from this thread . 

Officers are putting themselves at risk everyday and putting themselves at risk before the public . But no matter what you think we will not be cannon fodder for you . 

Most officers have others (family) that depend on them . though you may think they signed up for it too , they didn't most are civians that know as much as you about police work and just happened to fall in love with a cop . Unfortunately they usually learn a bit more about our job then most .

We deal with dangerous dogs all the time . MOST don't get shot but post a video of one getting shot and the following statements make most of us sound like trigger happy idiots . You aren't going to see much video on the internet on us NOT shooting a dog , suspects , whatever . That stuff isn't exciting . It certainly isn't going to promote discussion on an internet site about how some cops do a very good job . At least I haven't seen one . 

One things for sure I admire the Officers on this site because they tend to be very tolerant of others ignorance in these matters . I'm not that way .

I guess it's personal to me . Saw , smelled , heard what a 40 cal does to a K9 Officer I looked up to and was with minutes before the POS killed him . 

Saw what the same POS did to a friend I grew up with , started with on the job with and watched putting his mark on the job locking up badguys , entering burning buildings saving others . Saw what this did to the families too . Wives and small children .

I still see , smell and hear those things everyday , especially before I try and go to sleep .

Later I searched for the killer of another good friend and great officer . I saw what it did to the officers family and fellow officers who were there to see him get gunned down and performed CPR on him trying to save him in vain . 

Was there when a friend had to shot a suspect charging him with a sickle . Guy died falling into him . Real up close and personal . Saw the stress he and his family went through along with his partner who was alongside him .

Yes , I signed up for this knowing it was dangerous . But I was a dumbass like you(civilian with no real first hand experiance) and I didn't truely know how dangerous and difficult it actually was . 

When I found out it was too late , damage done , had went through college , a state skills academy and then our own 3 month academy along with 3 months of FTO to get the job and also had bills to pay . 

I love the job , addicted to it actually . Enduring the difficulty , experiancing the danger and making the streets safer are a big high . 

Knowing now how it's changed me and knowing the effects it had on my ex , kids , mom , sisters and brother , would I do it again . For me I'm not sure . 

One things for sure I have the unique experiance of knowing how much most of you don't know about my job . Why because I was once as clueless as you . Then I became a cop and learned big time .

You have the right to criticize us and most Officers are very patient with your views . But we have the right to respond also and since this isn't a discussion criticizing some civilain about how the fill potholes or something , expect some of us to give some pretty heated responses when you over simplify a difficult situation based on your ignorance .


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

Chris McDonald said:


> , but I feel the safety/ danger card is played a bit too often..


Of the 118 police officers killed this year 46 were shot to death... 9 were intentionally killed by people running them down with vehicles...

Don't tell me about numbers sir.... Please tell me how many construction workers weremurdered because they were construction workers? How many dentists were murdered because they were dentists? When the UPS man rings the bell does he worry about being shot because THOUSANDS of other USP drivers were shot ringing the bell?? ACCIDENTS happen on all kind of jobs.... murders of people because of what they do for a living does not. 

We've had four officers killed this year in my city.. all of them murdered while trying to help people... all of them were good men.. men of honor... husbands, fathers, and sons. One of them died trying to rescue a friend who was lying shot in front of him. I have a friend that I served with on SWAT for a number of years who just two weeks ago had to tell his mother and father that his only brother... their youngest son was murderd while trying to help someone. 

When you make a statement like that you insult every officer who has paid the ultimate price.


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

So civilians shouldn't have opinions because we're ignorant and can't figure it out?

So it was the tough luck that the folks driving down the road had picked that color vehicle out and law enforcement shouldn't ever be questioned?


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Well Al if you read my post I state; 

'' You have the right to criticize us and most Officers are very patient with your views . " 

Never said it's tough luck. Just trying to get across that due to the danger we face in our violent society that it's neccessary to handle stops investigating possible violent robbery suspects armed with guns by making a felony stop . 

We (law enforcement) should be questioned and we should and do question ourselves also . We do our best to learn from our mistakes and often change thing from these experiances . 

But IMO those here offerring tactical advice and overly simplistic solutions are showing those who have actually dealt with those type of incidents , that they are ignorant to the complexities of the issue and should be conscious of how far they are over stepping there limited knowledge of the subject . 

Questions and requests for us to look into something and try to find better solutions are one thing but some of the statements made here ARE ignorant . Unfortunately , I will never be able to convince them and should have known better then to have gotten into this type discussion in the first place . 1 thing I have not learned to do from my past mistakes .


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Tried to add this to my last post but was too late.


The " what ifs " and " the cops should have done this or that " aren't real viable solutions . If an officer had moved up to the vehicle and tried to "simply" shut the door and the dogs territorial instinct kicked in , we would now be hearing some say how stupid the officer was for attempting that and provoking the dog . There are no real answers for this unfortunate incident . We don't know what the responses to those different tactics would have been . 

It's easy now knowing that they were not the suspects , that there were no guns in the car , that an occupant could have shut the car door because there were no guns in the car thus no threat to the officers . But the officers on scene that night didn't have that luxury . They made descisions based on the belief these were possible dangerous suspects . It didn't turn out the way anyone would like and I feel for all the people involved . 

Would I have performed the felony stop that way ? No . 

Would my way of performing it have prevented the dog from coming out and being shot ? Don't think so . 

As a Police Officer I see nothing wrong with the reason for stopping them or performing a felony stop . The videos just too bad to determine if the dog was a threat to the officers or not .


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## Loring Cox (Sep 6, 2008)

James Downey said:


> WTF would anyone want to break into a Coast Guard recruiting office.


 
Wow this got way off topic... To answer your question: The "burglar" was looking to suicide by cop. He broke into the office and called 911 to report the break in. The sad irony here is that when he heard the shooting he came out during the confusion and was unable to complete his plan. The death of the K9 likely prevented his death....


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

Becky Shilling said:


> Reasonable would have been for one of the officers to _simply close the car door when begged to do so_. Then the problem would never have occurred. What possible harm could there have been in simply closing the dang car door?




Havent watched the video, but if it is about a high risk stop, that is so ridiculous its laughable...


Traffic stops are the deadliest encounters officers have, a cop should NEVER EVER do something like that (ambush). I guess it might make sense to someone that lives a life without any danger in it (or unaware of any danger)....no offense, its doesnt mean you arent a nice person....

For people that have no idea whatsoever what police deal with, the Grossman book "On Combat" will be very insightful


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

That was kind of the point of my orig argument in favor of the female cop.. even if unlikely, its possible that she was 100% reasonable. And this felony stop issue is one of the examples where Im always 1) defending the cops against public/common/uninformed opinion, and 2) right


90% of criticisms against police (like the hippy bruce springsteen song about the forty something times the guy was shot by NY police when they told him not to move and he decided to reach for his wallet, and deservedly got shot) are completely wrong and foolish, and the initial reaction regarding a tasing, shooting, 'beating' is usually wrong


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## Dwyras Brown (Nov 21, 2008)

Becky, why allow them to close the door. So the police have to break trhe window later, or give the occupant of the vehicle the advantage. 

I won't respond to Chris because his head is so far up his ass that he wouldn't understand (by choice). His mind is made up and that's the only way it can be. .


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

The cops train for every different situation they can think of and every situation that has happend in the past. Both good AND bad.
Tomorrow is another day and a totally new and different situation.
Split second assessments of a situation calls for split second decisions. The day after second guessing isn't something the average citizen is remotely qualified to do. ESPECIALLY taking guesses and passing judgment on something the news media:-& puts out.
If someone in the past has had the misfortune to run into one of the bad ones, sorry about that! Get over it! 
I look back to my youth when I had my share of "bad" encounters with LEO. In reality, I was a pia as a kid. (I'm being nice to myself here) :grin:
Thank you LEOs for the effort!


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