# Best Protection Prospects



## Howard Gaines III

When looking for the best PPD for family or business, breed has little to do with the need, rather age and drives should be viewed. IMO. How do you question breeders or K-9 brokers as to the look fors in the area of PPDs? What types of replies do some give as to make "this puppy" the one for you? 

The common reply I've heard from backyard breeders is, "This one will protect because it's big boned." These newspaper ads are a hoot!


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## Greg Williams

Puppies are always a crap shoot. What I look for is a nice drivey pup who is non stop biting, be it a rag, pant legs, whatever. Also needs to have good nerve. While the puppies are bitting or eating, I'll drop a stainless steel bowl, or throw some keys. What I'm looking for is the pup who either ignores the noise, or acknowledges the noise but then either goes to the noise or goes back to what they were doing.
I try to test fairly according to age and amount of training the dog has recieved.
when I would go to Belgium for my old boss to test dogs I would go to a lot of clubs to buy dogs. For the older dogs with training I would have leg dogs or sleeve dogs placed in the bicep of a suit jacket while in the door way of the club house (usually a vestibule so it was darker). I would then fight the dog using clatter stick or whatever. This way I got to see what the dog was made of off the trial/ training field. I've also tested dogs on the side of the Hwy to see there reaction to every day noises. You would be surprised at how many dogs freak when a truck goes buy and they would rather get out of dodge as opposed to staying and bitting.
Most importantly, a pp dog has to be tolerant of people, confident, and environmentally stable.


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## Lisa Maze

While me experience with personal protection dogs is limited (I worked with a company that trained PPD's for several years and helped select and train dogs as well as helped to run their PPD classes). It is an area that makes me nervous in part because of the liability and in part because of the type of people attracted to it.

For me, the most important thing to consider is "need" and living situation. Are we talking a single woman who has a restraining order against her abusive ex-husband or are we dealing with a family with several kids who worries about strangers sneaking into the house at night Jon Benet Ramsey style.

We have four dogs in the house and each serves a different role and if sold for PPD they would each thirve in a different environment.

Loki and Leila would make great family PPD's for someone with average need. They both display territorial aggression and will bark behind a fence or in the car. They are social and good house dogs but edgy enough to react to slight changes in the environement. They have both been worked in the muzzle and on the hidden sleeve and will bite but neither is a "man killer". You could take them to the park and put them on a down next to your stroller and not worry about them biting kids or picking a fight with a yorkie on a flexi-lead yet both could easily be conditioned to give a convincing passive alert.

Feist would make a great protection dog for a higher need person who needed a dog to travel with them everywhere. While he is lower in territorial aggression he is higher overall in social aggression. While he is steady enough to take everywhere he needs a more experienced or more dedicated handler as he will not tolerate people messing with him for long. He is very well trained for public access and has had hidden suit, sleeve and muzzle work as well as night work, building work etc. He will alert on command in the car and in the house but has a higher threshold for environmental changes. Again, not a man killer but with considerably higher levels of aggression than the first two dogs.

Villier would make a great high need dog for Personal Protection. While he will bite anyone who enters his territory, he will not bark. He is the Stealth Bomber of protection dogs. His high thresholds for environmental change and very low resting rate make him ideal for business protection (such as sitting behind the counter in a jewelry store.) He will not guard the perimeter of a house or vehicle but will bite if given the opportunity. He is the only dog in our house with live bites and we hope he never has another one. He needs an experienced handler or one who is willing to live carefully and keep the dog away from people outside the family because they have high need for a dog who will bite and bite hard. 

It seems impossible to say this or that makes a good protection dog without assessing the needs of the person(s) he is protecting. If I lived in the ghetto and had an eight foot high fence with razor wire I would want one of those Bully Yucka's to guard my meth lab. If I lived in San Francisco and had a crazy lesbian stalking me I would want a Presa Canario. If I wanted a dog who was could travel with me everywhere I would want a breed that was more trainable, steadier socially and associated with police work not eating people. If I had a family that included school age kids and lived in the suburbs I would look for a European show line shepherd who could do the work and not eat kids who jumped the fence to fetch their ball or frisbee back.

Lisa


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## Howard Gaines III

Geez Lisa you got most of the groups, but one. What kind of dog would you use on the drunk ********? :mrgreen:


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## Lisa Maze

Autralian Cattle Dog aka Blue Heeler. 

But then my friends would not be able to get into my house;-) 
Lisa


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## Lisa Maze

Just a note: My choice of breeds for different environments is as much about people's perception of them as their abilities to protect. 

Lisa


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## Josiah Neuman

When the physical characteristics are tied to the dogs ability to protect its obvious to me the seller/breeder is clueless. Yes, the average pet home is probably going to do fine with a visual deterrent (large bones/head/etc) that barks however does that make it a true blue PPD.... well, thats debateable. 

I like a young dog that is confident, curious, drivey, and quick to recover from environmental stress. 

Josiah Neuman


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## Bob Scott

For PPD work I want two breeds. A stronge nerved GSD and a nasty little terrier to fire his ass up. The terrier will do a Sugar Ray job of stick and move and the GSD will come in for a Mike Tyson knock out......or a bite! 
 Hey! I'm a PPD person and didn't even know it!


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## Michele McAtee

Josiah Neuman said:


> When the physical characteristics are tied to the dogs ability to protect its obvious to me the seller/breeder is clueless.



So you're saying if they have pointy ears it doesn't mean nuthin???
lol. 

I was happy when my lil BC/Redheeler/Beagle's ears went up. It was around the same time he started in on a lil guard bark in the yard. :hmmm: Will see if any of *my* friends will be able to get in in the future! LOL.


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## Howard Gaines III

Josiah Neuman said:


> When the physical characteristics are tied to the dogs ability to protect its obvious to me the seller/breeder is clueless. Yes, the average pet home is probably going to do fine with a visual deterrent (large bones/head/etc) that barks however does that make it a true blue PPD.... well, thats debateable.
> 
> I like a young dog that is confident, curious, drivey, and quick to recover from environmental stress.
> 
> Josiah Neuman


Yeah...but! The bite power of the Teacup Poodle isn't going to tell me the same as one from a Rottweiler. Skull size and bite pressure are physical characteristics and tied to the dogs ability to hand the bad guy his a$$. Barking makes it an alert dog not a PPD. A willingness to recover from anything is always a selling point.


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## Josiah Neuman

I agree, the physcial characteristics are important for manstopping power. 

You stated: The common reply I've heard from backyard breeders is, "This one will protect because it's big boned."

I feel that people selling PP dogs based on the physical attributes alone are clueless. The people that buy them are equally clueless. 

If I came across someone selling teacup poodles with massive heads and big bones.... that just might peak my interest. 


Josiah


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## Anna Kasho

Josiah Neuman said:


> If I came across someone selling teacup poodles with massive heads and big bones.... that just might peak my interest.


 
There's one poodle I groom, a standard, that is built like a dobermann. Have to tell you, it looks rather weird for a poodle. Wider chest and heavier boned than any other I've seen, but a nice balanced/calm temperament dog. Definitely not a working dog though, good nerves but not much drive for anything. Although some poodles from field lines are supposed to have more drive... It would be funny to see a poodle in a full continental cut doing SCH.


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## Dan Long

A guy I train OB with has a standard poodle that has the same body style as a Doberman. 

Personally for PP I like one of those Bull Massives, or a Rockwilder. Dovermans are nice too.


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## Howard Gaines III

Dan Long said:


> A guy I train OB with has a standard poodle that has the same body style as a Doberman.
> 
> Personally for PP I like one of those Bull Massives, or a Rockwilder. Dovermans are nice too.


Yeah but the Rockwilders have CRUSHING bites!:lol: And what about those Pimp Bulls? Stlyin!!!:-o


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## Bob Scott

I think there are Standard Poodles out ther that could do bite work. Seriously! We may not like the foo foo look but I've seen a few that had some brass behind them. Tops in intelligence/trainability with an attitude to go with it.


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## David Frost

I've trained two standards poodles for explosives detection, including weapons detection. They were both very good. I've also done some track work with Standards and they were surprisingly good at that as well. I have not trained any Poodles in any type of bite work, but it wouldn't surprise me that they are capable of it. 

DFrost


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## Dan Long

Sure they are good at bite work, look at the poodles that Howard has!


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## jay lyda

You mean the ones with the pink polished toe nails.


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## Gerry Grimwood

Bob Scott said:


> I think there are Standard Poodles out ther that could do bite work. Seriously! We may not like the foo foo look but I've seen a few that had some brass behind them. Tops in intelligence/trainability with an attitude to go with it.


I met a Conservation Officer a number of years ago with one, he was kept closely shaved/trimmed and he was a nice looking dog, sharp as a tack as well.


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## Michele McAtee

Jay, not the one with polished nails, the one with dredlocks. Yeah, dredlocks AND painted nails.


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## Bob Scott

Technically the poodle can be shown in a corded coat (think Puli or Komondor). 
Crop their ears and call them a Bouv. Who's to know!? :grin:


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## Dan Long

The dreadlocked one wears a lot of bling around his neck too.


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## Gillian Schuler

Bob Scott said:


> Technically the poodle can be shown in a corded coat (think Puli or Komondor).
> Crop their ears and call them a Bouv. Who's to know!? :grin:


Not even Howard Gaines, maybe
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Howard Gaines III

Dan Long said:


> The dreadlocked one wears a lot of bling around his neck too.


Sup Sup Yo! Big Bling Daddy Rock in da HOUSE! Dreads is what the decoys do...:-o


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## Jeff Oehlsen

After years of hearing about "other peoples" dogs and their "abilitys" to do PP work, I recognize that most people had really better not bet the farm on a dog.](*,) 

A yippy little dog trained a bit to not bark at just anything would serve better than most dogs I have met. At least I would wake up, and deal with the problem without having to go find the dang dog the next day...if I bothered.

Most people that want a PPD dogs personalities are such that they destroy the dog with their retard "testing" antics. 

Guess why I do not sell PPD dogs anymore.O


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## Howard Gaines III

Bob Scott said:


> Technically the poodle can be shown in a corded coat (think Puli or Komondor).
> Crop their ears and call them a Bouv. Who's to know!? :grin:


I knew that dog had a strange look to him! Oh well, poodle power it is............FiFI come here boy!O


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## Colin Chin

Hi Lisa,
Thank you for your comments on this issue of PPD. Somehow, it makes a lot of sense. Cheers.


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## Colin Chin

Hi Jeff,
Most people that want a PPD dogs personalities are such that they destroy the dog with their retard "testing" antics.

I would like you to help explain further of your above comment. Thanks.


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## tony panossian

hello all, this is my first forum of any kind so be patient:-D 
i have owned dogs all of my life, currently i own a German Shepherd he is 10 years old, 
he is the son of Enzo who was on the USA world Schuthund team, this didn't mean much to me at the time
i purchased Kahil (my dog), however raising Kahil has also raised some concerns....
he is a very well behaved dog, with incredible drive, trained in obedience and has done some bite work 
a couple of times (long story), but he loved it! his eyes light up...
back to the concern part, i have had strangers walk into my house and kahil will greet all...
he loves everyone that is great because i never worried when i took him everywhere with me, parks, shopping.... but it concerns me that he is friendly with people he shouldn't be with. 
on several occasions he will play fetch over the fence with strangers walking by the house lol.

i am currently living in new orleans where the crime rate is exponential.
i started looking for a PPD, now i'm more confused then ever, 
when i thought i knew a lot about dogs and training, the more i read the more i realized how little i know.
do i get a puppy or an adult?
i was so close to buying a dog from a company when a friend of my called the day of purchase and warned me about all the lawsuits currently pending against them, and when confronted none of my phone calls were ever returned.
do i have to pay 30K for a dog to get a sound ppd? i'm worried that if i try and save $$ i will endanger myself of family....
i want a dog just like Kahil loves kids loves people, however i want the dog to protect me and my family if need be.
sorry about the long post i just wanted to give you all a little background 
and thanks for any reply


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## Jennifer Adams

Out of curiousity, and I have heard from both sides on occasion the pros and cons....how can you have a protection dog that has to be locked up in a crate becasue it can not be around people. Wouldn't it be more appropriate to call this an attack dog if it in no way can ever be loose around people.?? What are your opinions on this matter. thanks


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## Howard Gaines III

Jennifer Adams said:


> Out of curiousity, and I have heard from both sides on occasion the pros and cons....how can you have a protection dog that has to be locked up in a crate becasue it can not be around people. Wouldn't it be more appropriate to call this an attack dog if it in no way can ever be loose around people.?? What are your opinions on this matter. thanks


Two thoughts...how can you have a firearm and leave it out for all to see? You can't in responsible ownership as loaded guns are a blessing and an issue to own. Responsible is as responsible does. Point two, what is an attack dog? How is it used and why is it owned? Like guns, I view my dogs as tools, each having a reason for being owned and controlled.

I have seen and heard of folks who left guns out for all to see. Then, some kid found it and took off part off part of their face in wondering about the "thing." Loaded guns and trained dogs are one in the same for me. You NEVER leave either out for "social" purposes.


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## Josiah Neuman

I disagree completely - you need to ditch the Bouvs and work with better dogs Howard. 

A personal protection dog need to be social, how else can it go places and do things which is most likely when something could happen? I don't know about you Howard, but my dog is with me practically 24/7. I can go on and on about people (including kids) approaching my dog without permission and petting him. He is social, and WILL rise to the occasion if needed. 

There is no place in society for anti-social ticking time bombs. Mind you, we are talking about personal protection dogs, not miliarty k-9, police, or whatever.

Dogs and guns are not one in the same - if a dog can't hang out with the family, socialize with guests, and protect, its not part of my program. 

Regards,


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## Josiah Neuman

The anti social PPD dog is a product of its genetics or its a lack of socialization. Either, way - I am not interested.

Josiah


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## Gerry Grimwood

Jennifer Adams said:


> Out of curiousity, and I have heard from both sides on occasion the pros and cons....how can you have a protection dog that has to be locked up in a crate becasue it can not be around people. Wouldn't it be more appropriate to call this an attack dog if it in no way can ever be loose around people.?? What are your opinions on this matter. thanks


I can't imagine why if anyone would need protection 24/7 would rely only on a dog, I honestly believe most people that think this way should take a long hard look at their own behaviour.

I also believe that a protection dog should be just that, how many hats can a dog wear anyway? so what if he isn't totally safe to take out in public, how often do people get attacked at starbucks ? if you were walking down a dark street people wouldn't give 2 shits whether the dog went off at the mere sight of someone approaching, it's a dog not a software program.


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## Josiah Neuman

A PPD needs to protect the person - we are not talking about estate guard dogs..... we are talking about personal protection. If I need to lock up the dog when people come over AND OR I cannot take the dog with me when I go places for fear of it biting someone it isn't supposed to, its no longer protecting. 

If you think a social dog cannot do the work, think again.

Regards, 

Josiah


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## Lee H Sternberg

Josiah Neuman said:


> I disagree completely - you need to ditch the Bouvs and work with better dogs Howard.
> 
> A personal protection dog need to be social, how else can it go places and do things which is most likely when something could happen? I don't know about you Howard, but my dog is with me practically 24/7. I can go on and on about people (including kids) approaching my dog without permission and petting him. He is social, and WILL rise to the occasion if needed.
> 
> There is no place in society for anti-social ticking time bombs. Mind you, we are talking about personal protection dogs, not miliarty k-9, police, or whatever.
> 
> Dogs and guns are not one in the same - if a dog can't hang out with the family, socialize with guests, and protect, its not part of my program.
> 
> Regards,


I have one of each type. In my particular case genetics causes the antisocial behavior. I have my personal reasons for wanting that kind of dog. 

Their duties will include estate guarding as well a personal protection.

I'm working very hard to temper the antisocial behavior enough to control it until I cut her loose.

I don't know yet which dog will perform better under real circumstances. I feel somewhat certain they will be tested in the environment they will be in soon.

My breeder claims it will be the "ticking time bomb" as you put it.

I live with them every day and I'm not so sure. It may come out a tie score.

Antisocial is far more difficult to work with than social temperament. 

I don't want or expect my dogs to interact with guests but I don't want them to threaten a guest either. I do eventually expect to take the antisocial one in public without concern if we get approached by a nonthreatening stranger. I work on public encounters daily.

I'm reasonably certain I will accomplish my goals. I agree with you when you say a kenneled dog can't help you if you need it.


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## Lee H Sternberg

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I can't imagine why if anyone would need protection 24/7 would rely only on a dog, I honestly believe most people that think this way should take a long hard look at their own behaviour.
> 
> I also believe that a protection dog should be just that, how many hats can a dog wear anyway? so what if he isn't totally safe to take out in public, how often do people get attacked at starbucks ? if you were walking down a dark street people wouldn't give 2 shits whether the dog went off at the mere sight of someone approaching, it's a dog not a software program.


Hey Gerry - That behaviour comment made me grin. That's probably true in many cases. I hope not mine. :smile:


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## Gerry Grimwood

Josiah Neuman said:


> If you think a social dog cannot do the work, think again.
> Josiah


I don't think it would be as effective.


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## Emilio Rodriguez

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I don't think it would be as effective.


In which aspect? The trigger? Handling pressure?


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## Josiah Neuman

I question whether or not an anti-social dog is biting out of fear. Effective or not, I am not interested.

Having a dog with me 24/7 is just one of the perks of being a dog trainer.  

Josiah


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## Gerry Grimwood

Emilio Rodriguez said:


> In which aspect? The trigger? Handling pressure?


In the eyes of most people a dog that triggers easily appears to be more of a threat to them physically and could negate any pressure that could be coming. The people that wouldn't be convinced by a display like that probably wouldn't care if the dog was normally social or not.

I'm not saying there are no social PPD's out there that wouldn't gladly rip someone a new one, I just think for the majority they are deterrents only and not really what people think they are.


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## Emilio Rodriguez

So you're saying that a dog with bad disposition would be quicker to react nothing more? In this case I'd say that a social dog can be sharper in certain situations the simplest one being at night for example. If you have an antisocial dog that's the only time you'll be walking it anyways. Both types will be doing the same job.

But other than that I kinda agree with you. A muzzle will solve a lot of problems, I think in other places it's a much more common thing. I'm still contemplating having my dog wear a muzzle just so people won't touch him. It's an F'n rottweiler. Albeit with this one I don't get so many people petting him, must be something about his attitude, friendly dog though.


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## Jennifer Adams

well I think all of your posts validated my belief. for one, if you have a dog in an outside kennel all day/night, the very best he can do is alarm you someone is on the property, unless you have a really nice robber who stops everything in his tracks so you can let the dog out...( but I seriously doubt that will ever happen. .. , I know a dog is not a gun although a ppd can be viewed as a concealed weapon.
I wasn't talking about bringing my dog to the circus for all to dote on, (yes, perhaps in a situation like that something could be misconstrued and an accident could happen . ) I do socialize my dog, i do agree /he/she shouldn't be a petting machine, however, I do want to be able to have my dog around people, or how else would he protect me if the occasion should ever god forbid happen... I just don't see how a dog that can't be around people, can protect you, (doesn't mean he has to make friends with everyone or even be petted for that matter but he shouldn't have to be held on a two inch chain because he is so defensive that he percieves everything and anyone as a threat. .. Hypothetical question, if a dog jumps out of his kennel or perhaps oneday slips his collar and targets the first person moving, I can hardly think that is a protection dog but perhaps one that hasn't been socialized properly, on a account of handler/trainer ignorance, or one that is just trained to attack anything that he can visivbly see, whether a threat or not! 
thank you for all of your responses, appreciate all the knowledge from a myriad of trainers, handlers and anyone with experience.


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## Dan Long

It seems like some people like to equate a protection dog with a gun. I don't agree with that, but I'll play along.

If a PPD= a gun, then I think:

A social dog who is trained in PPD is an unloaded gun. It's safe to leave an unloaded gun laying on the coffee table. It's safe to have a dog like this out and about with you. All it takes is 1 word to "load" your social PPD dog and have him ready to use.

A PPD dog who is not raised to be social is your proverbial loaded gun- you don't leave the gun on the table, you don't leave the dog out. The ability of either to protect you in a time of need is pretty minimal. 

If a person has a concealed carry permit- isn't the point of that to be able to carry your gun on your person for protection? Isn't that the point of a protection dog, do be with you in case you need protection?


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## Lee H Sternberg

The real question as I see it, can the dog that hates everyone (antisocial) be taught to not load up without permission?

Would the antisocial one fight harder with a threat than the social one?

I don't have either answer totally just yet, but I will have both answers over time.

I think I already have a good start on the answer to the first question. Maybe someone else has that answer.


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## Howard Gaines III

Gerry Grimwood said:


> *I can't imagine why if anyone would need protection 24/7* would rely only on a dog, I honestly believe most people that think this way should take a long hard look at their own behaviour..


Thanks Gerry, my thoughts too. I don't NEED a PPD 24/7. I don't live the thug life, don't roll with "hoods" and have a professional job. In fact, if I need true personal protection, my concealed carry works great in .40, .45, and .357 cals...the .44 MAG is also most impressive, and they don't need food or water! And if deployed, there will be no need to call off the "attack."

Ditch the Bouvs, not this week...but thanks for the thoughts and words of knowledge. My male is most able to assist me if the need to do a hose sweep is required.


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## Jerry Lyda

Lee, I don't think the antisocial dog fights any harder that the social dog does. Why, well once the dog is on the bite wheather trained one way or the other, will fight just as hard. *(most dogs, there are exceptions) Once on the bite each have been there in training, now it's a fight. Both see it that way. A social dog is a safety on a gun.

Does anyone think an antisocial dog is bitting more out of fear? I do. Therefore NO safety on that one.


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## Lee H Sternberg

Jerry Lyda said:


> Lee, I don't think the antisocial dog fights any harder that the social dog does. Why, well once the dog is on the bite wheather trained one way or the other, will fight just as hard. *(most dogs, there are exceptions) Once on the bite each have been there in training, now it's a fight. Both see it that way. A social dog is a safety on a gun.
> 
> Does anyone think an antisocial dog is bitting more out of fear? I do. Therefore NO safety on that one.


Thanks for your thoughts. I understand the first paragraph.


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## Lee H Sternberg

Jerry Lyda said:


> Lee, I don't think the antisocial dog fights any harder that the social dog does. Why, well once the dog is on the bite wheather trained one way or the other, will fight just as hard. *(most dogs, there are exceptions) Once on the bite each have been there in training, now it's a fight. Both see it that way. A social dog is a safety on a gun.
> 
> Does anyone think an antisocial dog is bitting more out of fear? I do. Therefore NO safety on that one.



I was called away from the computer before I finished. This is in regards to fear. I don't see fear at all. Maybe Selena can help on that issue. My dog's sire is comes from their kennel.

As far as I know, I think they have some antisocial dogs


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## Kadi Thingvall

Lee H Sternberg said:


> The real question as I see it, can the dog that hates everyone (antisocial) be taught to not load up without permission?


I think an antisocial dog can be taught to be "socially neutral" in that they can be in a social setting and ignore the people around them. However, I think you are taking a big risk if someone interprets "neutral" as "friendly" and tries to actually touch/interact with the dog. I've had antisocial dogs who I trained like this, they were taught from early on that unauthorized displays of aggression were NOT tolerated. I could take them pretty much anywhere and they would ignore the people around us and just hang out with me. However, none of them were dogs I trusted in a situation where a kid might rush up and try to pet the dog before I could stop them, or an idiot adult. They loved "their family" including my son, so it wasn't just a hate of kids situation, they just didn't like anyone else in the world. I don't have them anymore, I have no need for a dog like that, and don't want the liability either. It was to much of a pain having to be hyper vigilant at all times so some idiot wouldn't get themselves bit then sue me. I sold them to people who wanted/like that type of dog. My dogs are in public way to often for me to worry about that. They aren't all friendly/outgoing dogs, some could care less about strangers and have no need to interact with them. But I want their first reaction when someone touches them to be either be truly neutral (OK, you touched me, why??) or friendly, not "now you must die".


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## Lee H Sternberg

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I think an antisocial dog can be taught to be "socially neutral" in that they can be in a social setting and ignore the people around them. However, I think you are taking a big risk if someone interprets "neutral" as "friendly" and tries to actually touch/interact with the dog. I've had antisocial dogs who I trained like this, they were taught from early on that unauthorized displays of aggression were NOT tolerated. I could take them pretty much anywhere and they would ignore the people around us and just hang out with me. However, none of them were dogs I trusted in a situation where a kid might rush up and try to pet the dog before I could stop them, or an idiot adult. They loved "their family" including my son, so it wasn't just a hate of kids situation, they just didn't like anyone else in the world. I don't have them anymore, I have no need for a dog like that, and don't want the liability either. It was to much of a pain having to be hyper vigilant at all times so some idiot wouldn't get themselves bit then sue me. I sold them to people who wanted/like that type of dog. My dogs are in public way to often for me to worry about that. They aren't all friendly/outgoing dogs, some could care less about strangers and have no need to interact with them. But I want their first reaction when someone touches them to be either be truly neutral (OK, you touched me, why??) or friendly, not "now you must die".


I totally understand and agree with your comments and sentiments. I "ordered" this dog to be exactly the way she is turning out for a specific purpose.

When you did have these antisocial dogs did you believe their actions were fear generated?


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## Jerry Lyda

Lee, I didn't mean your dog, I was talking dogs in general.


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## Lee H Sternberg

Jerry Lyda said:


> Lee, I didn't mean your dog, I was talking dogs in general.


No worries! I don't get offended with that stuff. I'm here to understand and learn. I never had a dog like her and I've had many working breed dogs.

This is a real interesting subject.

I've studied her body language for months now and don't see fear, just hate. :smile:


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## Chris Michalek




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## Michelle Reusser

Gerry Grimwood said:


> In the eyes of most people a dog that triggers easily appears to be more of a threat to them physically and could negate any pressure that could be coming. The people that wouldn't be convinced by a display like that probably wouldn't care if the dog was normally social or not.
> 
> I'm not saying there are no social PPD's out there that wouldn't gladly rip someone a new one, I just think for the majority they are deterrents only and not really what people think they are.


 
Gerry, I'm sorry you haven't met a 100% correct dog yet, maybe someday.


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## Emilio Rodriguez

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Would the antisocial one fight harder with a threat than the social one?


The fact of it being antisocial IMO has no bearing on how hard it will fight. In the end it all depends on the individual dog and the balance that is right for your situation.

It is possible that being antisocial the dog has more stresses acting on it simply because it has to deal with stimuli that a neutral dog doesn't. This may in the end lower his thresholds all around. Maybe dominant dogs are a little like this too. They spend a lot of time worrying about who is going to cross the line with them. Stress is cumulative. A dog that is not really stressed going into bitework has a lot more room to go before it reaches a threshold if it's a good dog.

An antisocial dog is simply more sure to react aggressively in the first place. For some situations this is a necessity. In my case I don't need it and I also believe that with a balanced dog I can achieve this too if I wanted to.

Dan Long, interesting analogy about the loaded and unloaded gun.


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## Emilio Rodriguez

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I want their first reaction when someone touches them to be either be truly neutral (OK, you touched me, why??) or friendly, not "now you must die".


Hahaha now you must die :smile:


Lee H Sternberg said:


> When you did have these antisocial dogs did you believe their actions were fear generated?


I don't think there's necessarily fear, depending on the dog, but there are definitely stresses which I mentioned in my previous post. I know about this from being interested in some of the mastiff breeds in the past and owning a few.


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## Howard Gaines III

Jerry Lyda said:


> Does anyone think an antisocial dog is bitting more out of fear? I do. Therefore NO safety on that one.


Jerry I don't see it as biting out of fear, rather out of not knowing. Some dogs test very well in some venues. If the dog has never been exposed to that "thing," how can it have any baseline for "proper" judgement? JMO humble as it may be....


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## Josiah Neuman

In my experience, anti-social dogs are more environmental - and this leads to issues in bite work.

Josiah


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## Lee H Sternberg

Emilio - I like your thoughts on stresses. For the most part I would tend to agree.

Josiah - In my case your theory does not hold up. Absolutely no bitework issues. She is cool, calm and collected with no hectic tendencies. This is not just my opinion.


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## Gerry Grimwood

Michelle Kehoe said:


> Gerry, I'm sorry you haven't met a 100% correct dog yet, maybe someday.


Show me a 100% correct dog and I will nail my foot to the floor.


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## Emilio Rodriguez

Hehehe I guess it is a lot to ask but some come close to what a particular individual is looking for.


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## Michelle Reusser

So very true Emilio and I couldn't really ask for anything more...maybe more speed from my dog but everything else is super. He can relax, he will bite all day, he's good with kids, he's....well everything I wanted in a dog.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Show me a 100% correct dog and I will nail my foot to the floor.

Wasn't that a Monty python bit from Yellowbeard ???


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## Gerry Grimwood

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Show me a 100% correct dog and I will nail my foot to the floor.
> 
> Wasn't that a Monty python bit from Yellowbeard ???


I think that was a nail in the scrotilia region.


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## Kadi Thingvall

Lee H Sternberg said:


> When you did have these antisocial dogs did you believe their actions were fear generated?


I think when asking if it's fear based you can't be 100% sure with your answer because fear reactions can take so many different forms. One of the dogs I'm sure it was although you would never have known that once the dog was an adult. But as a pup they did act shy if people tried to interact with them. 1 I didn't get until he was an adult, so ??? but it's possible he was always just a dominant/nasty bastard LOL The rest of them I would say it's probably got an element of fear to it, but their reaction to fear or stressors is to go forward and at the object/person, not backwards. So is it fear based, probably, but how they handle that fear is going to make many people think it's not fear. 

But I also believe when you see defense in a dog there is an element of fear, if there wasn't then why would they feel defensive?? It's not about them feeling it, it's about how they react to it, and if their reaction is forward or backwards. Sometimes you see an antisocial dog who is just antisocial because they are a dominant bastard, but I think that's less then 5%, the rest I think have issues with people and have learned that aggression is a very successful coping mechanism to deal with those issues. And once they are adults sometimes it can be hard to seperate which is which.


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## Jerry Lyda

Kadi, very good post.


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## Emilio Rodriguez

A high suspicion level is not something common we see in dogs used for sport or PSD work for that matter. High suspicion from experience appears to be tied to lower thresholds in bitework. Suspicion is related to stress but may be independent of the drives we use for bitework. How it affects the dog in the long run may have to do with if the dog was allowed to express its resentment. If it did and was successful at it it will become stronger. If it's corrected for it then it may create a conflict in the dog. It depends on the situation where the dog is to be used. As was mentioned before sometimes a dog that's quick to fire is necessary and acceptable.


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## Lee H Sternberg

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I think when asking if it's fear based you can't be 100% sure with your answer because fear reactions can take so many different forms. One of the dogs I'm sure it was although you would never have known that once the dog was an adult. But as a pup they did act shy if people tried to interact with them. 1 I didn't get until he was an adult, so ??? but it's possible he was always just a dominant/nasty bastard LOL The rest of them I would say it's probably got an element of fear to it, but their reaction to fear or stressors is to go forward and at the object/person, not backwards. So is it fear based, probably, but how they handle that fear is going to make many people think it's not fear.
> 
> But I also believe when you see defense in a dog there is an element of fear, if there wasn't then why would they feel defensive?? It's not about them feeling it, it's about how they react to it, and if their reaction is forward or backwards. Sometimes you see an antisocial dog who is just antisocial because they are a dominant bastard, but I think that's less then 5%, the rest I think have issues with people and have learned that aggression is a very successful coping mechanism to deal with those issues. And once they are adults sometimes it can be hard to seperate which is which.


Hey Kadi, I'm enjoying this discussion and learning some things. My dog's sire is Robbie from Dick and Selena's kennel. I may be wrong but I think their dogs usually fit in that 5% bracket. At least from everything I've been told they are real dominant dogs. My dog's dam is also on the extreme side.

I took my pup downtown often starting at 10 weeks old. She would sit with me and hang over a park bench trying to bite people passing by. There were times I wish she were more fearful and hid under the bench.


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## Michelle Reusser

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Hey Kadi, I'm enjoying this discussion and learning some things. My dog's sire is Robbie from Dick and Selena's kennel. I may be wrong but I think their dogs usually fit in that 5% bracket. At least from everything I've been told they are real dominant dogs. My dog's dam is also on the extreme side.
> 
> I took my pup downtown often starting at 10 weeks old. She would sit with me and hang over a park bench trying to bite people passing by.


Let's rememebr though, there are Dominant dogs that are NOT assholes or feel the need to prove a point. Dominant does not always equal hard to train or evil dog.


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## Lee H Sternberg

Michelle Kehoe said:


> Let's rememebr though, there are Dominant dogs that are NOT assholes or feel the need to prove a point. Dominant does not always equal hard to train or evil dog.


I agree,Michelle. In my case I wanted a asshole and went after a very particular breeding to get one. Where I'm going I want the word out on just what kind of a total asshole she is.

Word travels fast amongst thieves in that small environment. It's a deterrent like you would not believe in a population that is normally very wary of protection or guard dogs.

She may be evil outside the pack but she is great with the family including my 6 year old son. In fact she is the most gentle loving female I ever owned. I have a older spayed female Lab her who is not that gentle.

As Kadi said it's a pain to have to be that diligent. I need eyes in the back of my head. I'm prepared for that. She does give a hell of a warning growl when anyone invades our space.:smile:

Because of that I haven't had much of a problem with people trying to pet her.

On the other hand now I can walk her by pedestrian up close or stand there talking to someone with her by my side. Just don't try to stare her down or the dominant nature takes over.

Like I said, a complex dog. That's why I ask a lot of questions here.


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## Michelle Reusser

I have seen that some Dutchies don't, like most dogs, respect or see us humans as above them. They have their own ideas of what is right and wrong. Not a breed for me.


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## Jerry Lyda

I love my GSD's but Jay has a very nice female Dutchie. May have to get me one of those.


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## Lee H Sternberg

Jerry Lyda said:


> I love my GSD's but Jay has a very nice female Dutchie. May have to get me one of those.


Does Jay's know right from wrong? ](*,)


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## Jerry Lyda

Well he has both GSD and Dutchie. Both dogs are fantastic. Ichillies and Mischa


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## James Degale

In the UK, civilians do not carry guns, a dog your defense system. 

My working line GSD is a good PPD because I can bring him anywhere, simple as that. He is neutral to social with dogs, people, crowds and I never have to worry he is going to nail someone or something is going to set him off. What is the point in having a PPD if it going to be a liability and cause you stress??!! He has always been naturally dominant and my definition of this is that other dogs always give way to him, so there are no fights, ever. Bearing in mind most of the dogs we meet on walks are your average pet pooches of course. He basically doesn't give too much of a rats ass about much and perceives very little as a threat. Protection training was interesting, he basically didn't show a lot of interest until he hit 1 year old, so I only managed to do small bits and pieces of prey work with him early on. I would say he has balanced prey and defense. Although I do a bit of sport but IMO my boy is just not drivey enough to score big points, dumbells being our other problem! But stick a suit on the agitator and wind him up, you will see a different dog. None of the sports dogs I train with has the seriousness, intensity or control he clearly demonstrates in training "reality scenarios". It is a sight to behold. Maybe something to do with not having been pattern trained onto a sleeve and only introduced into the bite later on in life with defense and not just prey, maybe other can enlighten me?? He loves the fight and thankfully his bite is full and hard. Yes, I would say he has a high threshold for just about everything in life but that is what I want, a dog that fires up only when I cue him, not at every passing crowd or drunk yelling outside a bar. I am not a police officer who needs a dog to kick up hell at the end of a leash to disperse an unruly mob. My dog is there to be mine and my family's companion 99% of the time, but when the time comes to bite hard and fast so we can make a getaway because i do not intend stay and fight!


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## Gerry Grimwood

Lee H Sternberg said:


> I took my pup downtown often starting at 10 weeks old. She would sit with me and hang over a park bench trying to bite people passing by. There were times I wish she were more fearful and hid under the bench.


Lee, I've had that same experience starting at about 10-12 weeks and when he got to be 14 months I was the only person in my family that I would trust with him. He's with someone else now and I can't even get close to him, in my case it was either fear based or he has a screw loose.


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## Lee H Sternberg

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Lee, I've had that same experience starting at about 10-12 weeks and when he got to be 14 months I was the only person in my family that I would trust with him. He's with someone else now and I can't even get close to him, in my case it was either fear based or he has a screw loose.


She is a year and a lover with the family.


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## Emilio Rodriguez

Gerry, your last post reminded me of a dog I knew. An aggressive rott that I got to know because the owner didn't know how to deal with him. The reaction from him as a small pup was to lunge and bark aggressively if a stranger would come close and beckon him. In some cases without a doubt this kind of behavior in a pup does not indicate weakness as far as the dog's ability to engage a person.


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## Erik Berg

Some dogs stand their ground and acts aggressive when threathen by a man, but are afraid of many others situation which not involve manwork, so I think the phrase "attack is the best defence" have much truth to it.


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## Emilio Rodriguez

I like this post and agree.


Kadi Thingvall said:


> I think when asking if it's fear based you can't be 100% sure with your answer because fear reactions can take so many different forms. One of the dogs I'm sure it was although you would never have known that once the dog was an adult. But as a pup they did act shy if people tried to interact with them. 1 I didn't get until he was an adult, so ??? but it's possible he was always just a dominant/nasty bastard LOL The rest of them I would say it's probably got an element of fear to it, but their reaction to fear or stressors is to go forward and at the object/person, not backwards. So is it fear based, probably, but how they handle that fear is going to make many people think it's not fear.
> 
> But I also believe when you see defense in a dog there is an element of fear, if there wasn't then why would they feel defensive?? It's not about them feeling it, it's about how they react to it, and if their reaction is forward or backwards. Sometimes you see an antisocial dog who is just antisocial because they are a dominant bastard, but I think that's less then 5%, the rest I think have issues with people and have learned that aggression is a very successful coping mechanism to deal with those issues. And once they are adults sometimes it can be hard to seperate which is which.


I was trying to remember all the naturally aggressive dogs I knew or heard about from my friends. The common thing with most of them was that no one put on a suit and tried fighting with them. The aggression was perceived as excessive and the dogs were considered dangerous and tough. At most they took bites on a sleeve but sometimes they put people in the hospital, usually their handlers. What need did we have to test them more anyways? For a protection dog the first point is to build up the aggression so it will not back down from threat from a man and that was already there. Something not that many dogs can do when it comes down to it. These dogs couldn't be made to back down and showed clear desire to engage so they were considered strong.

Some of those that were agitated would shift into active aggression. Some of those that weren't agitated but exhibited active aggression like behavior were dogs that were also dominant. Some that didn't receive agitation and weren't dominant have been able to shift into active aggression on their own (common with rottweliers who do this a lot anyways). Consideration must be given to the fact that some dogs receive natural agitation. The kind where they can see people walking by, react in defense and then the people leave fast. Lastly some dogs were just all strong defense, mastiff type dogs.

All of the different types of dogs I mentioned that were triggered by people entering their "zone" were reacting in defense and it can be concluded that the dogs had pressure acting on them/fear. But like Kadi said it's how they reacted to the pressure that made the difference. The capacity to confront threat from a man can be independent of being able to perceive the threat in the first place.


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