# mental pressure



## mike suttle

I'm driving to the airport now to pick up some dogs so I'm using my phone and there will likely be some spelling and grammar errors in my post. I was reading the thread about dogs being chased away but before I could comment it was locked. let me first say that I would never purposely run a dog in training. but I have absolutely ran many many dogs in testing for purchase. not 1 of those dogs ever ran from being physically hurt. it's the mental pressure that gets them every time. I will of course put physical pain on a dog, but nothing that will ever cause any long term damage. we test our patrol dog canidates in a bite suit, weather they understand or have trained with a bite suit before or not. I'm not looking at technique, I'm looking for heart, determination, willingness to stay in the fight, etc. I will put my hands on the dog and physically remove him from the suI
then pin him on the ground and not allow him to bite me, then I will usually pitch him a few feet away from me and charge him as soon as he turns to come back at me. I will use my feet to push him away and I block his attempts to bite me, while I show him a very strong presence and continue to apply mental pressure as he struggles to bite me. none of this causes any physical pain on the dog, but most dogs will run from this type of testing


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## Bart Karmich

What do you do with a dog that doesn't stay engaged under that kind of pressure? Do you generally flat out decline the purchase? I assume we are talking about green dogs here since you mentioned "candidates" and included dogs that may not have been built by your testing method (suit). I agree that most dogs will disengage, not necessarily flee but back-off and try to figure it out from there. A rational dog is going to consider what's in the fight for it? I mean, why not leave this guy alone and piss around somewhere else? It's an unusual dog that just stays in it to win for its own internal reasons. So do you consider a dog that shows itself unsure? just note where it's at and plan on building from there? Or do you just keep looking? It seems like if you only selected dogs that stayed in it you would probably be selecting dogs that have been built-up, by conditioning that informs them that they won't get hurt before they inevitably win.

If you do keep a dog after you've run them in selection testing, what do you do with them? What's your plan from there?


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## Isaiah Chestnut

mike suttle said:


> I'm driving to the airport now to pick up some dogs so I'm using my phone and there will likely be some spelling and grammar errors in my post. I was reading the thread about dogs being chased away but before I could comment it was locked. let me first say that I would never purposely run a dog in training. but I have absolutely ran many many dogs in testing for purchase. not 1 of those dogs ever ran from being physically hurt. it's the mental pressure that gets them every time. I will of course put physical pain on a dog, but nothing that will ever cause any long term damage. we test our patrol dog canidates in a bite suit, weather they understand or have trained with a bite suit before or not. I'm not looking at technique, I'm looking for heart, determination, willingness to stay in the fight, etc. I will put my hands on the dog and physically remove him from the suI
> then pin him on the ground and not allow him to bite me, then I will usually pitch him a few feet away from me and charge him as soon as he turns to come back at me. I will use my feet to push him away and I block his attempts to bite me, while I show him a very strong presence and continue to apply mental pressure as he struggles to bite me. none of this causes any physical pain on the dog, but most dogs will run from this type of testing


I agree with mike. And it was exactly what I meant but he just said abd put it better. I dont believe a dog must be hurt physically to display heart. A injured dog is no good for anything. But a little pain to test tolerance and mental pressure is all thats needed. Also, I wouldn't let just anyone conduct and neither. but I do want to see a dog that is willing to fight and to be determined to win regardless of what's going on.


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## Isaiah Chestnut

sorry for the typos


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## Bart Karmich

I believe that some dogs are in it to get the piece of equipment. These are the dogs that start out with little civil aggression and are then taught through arm and leg sleeve-slipping or winning suit jackets etc. I think of those techniques as useful for channeling and refocusing a dog that is a little too civil and hectic for learning, but I see them used where they are teaching a non-civil dog with lower-desire that it really is all about the equipment. Even when the dog isn't allowed to posess the equipment, they learn to satiate on having control of the sleeve etc. for a while. With a dog that is like this, how the man reacts is less important than what the dog finds possible with the equipment. If the man is basically unreactive and the dogs efforts do not seem to affect the man, the dog doesn't care as long as it gets control or possession of the equipment. I would want to teach this kind of dog the opposite by using exagerated reactions and not slipping equipment, but that's besides the point.

Other dogs are in it for the man. You can see they spit sleeves out and refocus on the man right away, they work in a muzzle, they work on hidden sleeves. With this kind of dog, how the man reacts is everything. When they bite, they need to know it's working, having an affect on the man. He moves, he screams, he retreats, he falls, etc.

I would want to train either kind of dog by showing them that biting the man produces a big reaction. If the man does not react, the equipment focused dog is going to keep doing its thing. It's not even paying attention to the man in the first place. The man-focused dog is going to think wtf and try to figure something else out. So using a suit in a way that the dog's efforts against the man are totally resisted will favor a dog that is equipment focused. One that has learned to latch on to equipment and persist until it wins the equipment. I would agree, however, that extreme mental pressure is going to dissuade these sleeve-suckers regardless. But it may disfavor a civil dog that is paying attention to the man and recognizing its efforts are not having any effect. Because of that, if I were to apply extreme mental pressure, I would not want to do this by completly resisting the dog's efforts as if they are totally futile. I would be concerned that would select stupid-hard dogs but pass-over the thinking problem-solvers that are more interesting to me.


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## Maren Bell Jones

So imagine kind of what Mike describes here and that was somewhat similar to what was done to my still quite green dog who had perhaps only 20-ish bitework sessions (including a sum of all sessions in his life on any decoy, even with just tugs and so on, was barely worked on a suit before) previously by a trainer I didn't know, but stupidly agreed to work with. The ironic thing is my dog never came off the sleeve during this despite being flanked hard, thrown around, and picked up by the skin right behind his ears with the sleeve in his mouth. But the major confidence issues with new decoys started then. Working in that fashion should never have been done as a one off sort of deal especially on a still green dog, but as a process on a more finished dog that takes months who also has many, many sessions under their belt to give them the confidence from previous experience or alternatively as a test for a finished dog. I will always regret that.

Be careful who you allow to work your dogs and what you get talked into...


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## Timothy Saunders

I also would not run or break a dog on purpose . What we do with dogs is really against their nature. small animals don't normally attack bigger ones 
i.e. ( a single wolf doesn't attack a grizzly bear). Dog minds also have muscle memory. When you teach them they have a breaking point they remember. Flight is the other side of the civil defense coin.

"I would want to train either kind of dog by showing them that biting the man produces a big reaction. If the man does not react, the equipment focused dog is going to keep doing its thing. It's not even paying attention to the man in the first place. The man-focused dog is going to think wtf and try to figure something else out. So using a suit in a way that the dog's efforts against the man are totally resisted will favor a dog that is equipment focused. One that has learned to latch on to equipment and persist until it wins the equipment. I would agree, however, that extreme mental pressure is going to dissuade these sleeve-suckers regardless. But it may disfavor a civil dog that is paying attention to the man and recognizing its efforts are not having any effect. Because of that, if I were to apply extreme mental pressure, I would not want to do this by completly resisting the dog's efforts as if they are totally futile. I would be concerned that would select stupid-hard dogs but pass-over the thinking problem-solvers that are more interesting to me." From Bart

Normally If you can get a dog thinking in a fight he is finished. The dog that is hard doesn't have to be stupid. He is just dominant . That is why in some selection test possession is also as important . In some cases people see a dog that they think is equipment focused is not. When you say equipment focused dog people always think of a dog with a slipped sleeve and a wagging tail. How about the dog who takes the sleeve and when you try to retrieve it bites you for real.


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## mike suttle

Bart Karmich said:


> What do you do with a dog that doesn't stay engaged under that kind of pressure? Do you generally flat out decline the purchase? I assume we are talking about green dogs here since you mentioned "candidates" and included dogs that may not have been built by your testing method (suit). I agree that most dogs will disengage, not necessarily flee but back-off and try to figure it out from there. A rational dog is going to consider what's in the fight for it? I mean, why not leave this guy alone and piss around somewhere else? It's an unusual dog that just stays in it to win for its own internal reasons. So do you consider a dog that shows itself unsure? just note where it's at and plan on building from there? Or do you just keep looking? It seems like if you only selected dogs that stayed in it you would probably be selecting dogs that have been built-up, by conditioning that informs them that they won't get hurt before they inevitably win.
> 
> If you do keep a dog after you've run them in selection testing, what do you do with them? What's your plan from there?


We never buy dogs that run during that test to put in our inventory as dual purpose dogs. Depending on how well the dog hunts and retrieves, how stable he is environmentally and how his health is we may still buy him as adetector dog. If a dog stops and stays with me showing no signs of fear but only confusion then I may still buy the dog. I have seen green dogs with only a little sleeve training stay with me during this test and keep trying to fight me. I've also seen many knpv, nvbk, psa, and ring titled dogs run for the hills during this test. This test is evaluate what the dog has in his heart, not training test


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## susan tuck

I agree, Mike. When dogs are run it's almost always mental pressure. I also think it's possible for a decoy/helper to apply enough mental pressure to run just about any dog. After all, a decoy/helper is a very different opponent (not just because of protective clothing, but primarily because they can get into a dog's head) as compared to a normal person. 

Ive seen many good helpers, when testing a dog to see what it's got, take the dog to the edge but never making them turn tail, in fact backing off and ending the session with the dog feeling confident, because there would be no point in running the dog, since it's quite obvious where that particular dog's breaking point lies. 

I've actually never seen a really good dog run because it was physically hurt. Remember the infamous FMBB where a number of dogs were physically injured yet most stayed in the fight. 

I have heard a lot of excuses through the years, primarily from show line folk when their dogs were run: "the helper stepped on my dogs foot" or "the stick hits were too hard" or "my dog was jammed" etc., etc., etc.. The fact remains, good dogs usually get tougher when the shit hits the fan.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Mike, have you ever encountered what I described above (i.e.-green dog that did fine and stuck with you but later had issues in protection?).


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## mike suttle

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Mike, have you ever encountered what I described above (i.e.-green dog that did fine and stuck with you but later had issues in protection?).


I've certainly seen problems caused by inexperienced decoys, or decoys with big egos who push a dog over the edge in training. But I've not had any dogs that pass our selection test look worse later in training.


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## mike suttle

When testing a dog I push him that far one time. Never again will her be pushed to the point of shutting down. Even when we push him there in testing I always end the session on a positive note for the dog.


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## Bart Karmich

Timothy Saunders said:


> Normally If you can get a dog thinking in a fight he is finished. The dog that is hard doesn't have to be stupid. He is just dominant . That is why in some selection test possession is also as important . In some cases people see a dog that they think is equipment focused is not. When you say equipment focused dog people always think of a dog with a slipped sleeve and a wagging tail. How about the dog who takes the sleeve and when you try to retrieve it bites you for real.


Wrong. The dog is "finished" as soon as you decided that you would not even so much as react to his attack but simply come at it like you're a juggernaut. You put on the suit and you determined the dog was finished. The only part for the dog is to either recognize reality or not. An equipment focused dog is going to take more time and pressure before they notice it. A stupid hard dog is not necessarily equipment-focused, but they may be more or less oblivious to the reality that they cannot win. Thinking does not finish a dog, and an inability to recognize a loss does not make a winner.


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## Bart Karmich

Here is one of Mike's stupid-hard dogs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cftn_C54ULc I am still waiting for him to post a video of this dog thinking or problem-solving.


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## Thomas Barriano

Bart Karmich said:


> Here is one of Mike's stupid-hard dogs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cftn_C54ULc I am still waiting for him to post a video of this dog thinking or problem-solving.


Super nice dog, great grips, commitment to the man etc. etc.
Take the same dog and send him on the same decoy with NO visible equipment and totally passive. Will he still bite, if he does will he stay on the bite if the decoy doesn't react? "Running a dog" isn't as simple as this dog stayed so he's a great dog and this one ran (or didn't bite) so he's a POS.


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## Maren Bell Jones

mike suttle said:


> When testing a dog I push him that far one time. Never again will her be pushed to the point of shutting down. Even when we push him there in testing I always end the session on a positive note for the dog.


Yep. I don't think my dog left the whole experience thinking "man, I kicked ass coming through all that!" even though he never came off the grip on the sleeve *during the session.* He probably felt more like he came through it but it sure was not fun. The video that Bart posted of Ivo was actually not unlike what was done to my dog as a green dog. Not so much the slamming against the wall, but the flanking and picking up, yes more or less.


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## will fernandez

I am lost...What is a thinking problem solver in bite work?


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## Bart Karmich

A thinking dog on the bite is going to consider whether what he is doing is working or not. But my request didn't have to do with being on the bite. I originally asked for the escort over a loading dock. It's a simple problem. The dog has to decide who goes over the edge first. There's another recent thread on problem-solving where Joby provided a good scenario. Thinking matters in bite work because bitework does not begin on the grip and it should not end on the grip. I can make a clamp that does not come off the grip. It's a clamp.


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## mike suttle

Bart Karmich said:


> Here is one of Mike's stupid-hard dogs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cftn_C54ULc I am still waiting for him to post a video of this dog thinking or problem-solving.


I actually would not consider ivo to be a hard dog at all
actually I would say he's rather sensitive, but certainly 1 of the most intelligent dogs I've ever had the pleasure of owning


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## David Frost

mike suttle said:


> When testing a dog I push him that far one time. Never again will her be pushed to the point of shutting down. Even when we push him there in testing I always end the session on a positive note for the dog.


I've never seen you test a dog, and to my knowledge have never seen one of your dogs. I do like the way you do it. I can imagine a very trainable dog once it's been selected. 

DFrost


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## mike suttle

David Frost said:


> I've never seen you test a dog, and to my knowledge have never seen one of your dogs. I do like the way you do it. I can imagine a very trainable dog once it's been selected.
> 
> DFrost


Lol, we can change that right now David. I'm driving back from the airport now with 2 very strong dual purpose Malinois fresh off the plane from Holland. I can deliver them to your department tomorrow!


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## Bart Karmich

mike suttle said:


> Ivo... certainly 1 of the most intelligent dogs I've ever had the pleasure of owning


I actually never doubted that. I just try to chap your hide for what you choose to show off. If I ever need a pipe clamp, I know just where to go.


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## mike suttle

Bart Karmich said:


> I actually never doubted that. I just try to chap your hide for what you choose to show off. If I ever need a pipe clamp, I know just where to go.


try to make it out someday to train with us Bart. that would be the best way to get a better idea about us and our dogs. it's really hard to tell much from video, and internet chat. there is nothing special about us or what we do at all, we are just very picky about the type of dog we buy, breed with, or keep back from a litter to raise from a puppy. then we try to be careful and smart about the way we train those dogs. I'm very fortunate to have found such a great trainer to trick into being my girlfriend, that makes my job here much easier. all I have to do is pick out the right dogs, Ariel can train them to do anything after that


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## Terrasita Cuffie

mike suttle said:


> it's the mental pressure that gets them every time.


 Great point! It comes from within and the dogs can read it.

T


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## Bart Karmich

I was just reading Jack Lee, dog trainer and master from Zhejiang China. I have to post this again here because this guys clearly understands everything in the "Here we go again" Baden thread, the important question of who the dog works for. He knows that all dogs have a limit, and then you will see. He understands about the over confidence of Dutch pipe clamps. "Hardness is crisp." I love that. The best dog is a dog of good understanding, a thinking dog able to solve complex problems.



Jack Lee said:


> one thing is clear : there are limits for dog as a group .
> so what ?!
> near limit ,you will see many thing.
> 
> IMO ,mental pipe is related to solidity .but , still it is not the heart of dog trainning . the reason is that policedog is not for fighting to death. And those dog liking mental pipes is not definite to have strong prey.
> 
> so what is strong prey ?
> once , somebody ask one training master ,Do dog work for itself or for humankind? really stupid question? actually not at all.
> this is important question.
> 
> KNPV dogs bite like alligator. but why policedog should not bite like alligator? some caution is needed for not getting wounded , at this time , where is solidity ? and if the dog is overconfident , the fighting process is actually not so smooth , thus the dog will be surprised and then less so solid, again where is the solidity now?
> a famous saying in china goes, hardness is crisp.
> 
> dog's mental is complex (science), the best suitable dog is in theory but it will provided good understanding the complex real situation .


from http://www.WorkingDogForum.com/vBul...ry-away-car-tire-23561/index8.html#post331369


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Care to explain?

T


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## Connie Sutherland

Bart Karmich said:


> I was just reading Jack Lee, dog trainer and master from Zhejiang China. I have to post this again here because this guys clearly understands everything in the "Here we go again" Baden thread, the important question of who the dog works for. He knows that all dogs have a limit, and then you will see. He understands about the over confidence of Dutch pipe clamps. "Hardness is crisp." I love that. The best dog is a dog of good understanding, a thinking dog able to solve complex problems.


Where is the text from?


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## Nicole Stark

Jack posted that here. Probably in this llink: http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f18/dog-selection-pick-up-carry-away-car-tire-23561/


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## Connie Sutherland

Thanks, Nicole!

I don't know how I forgot that. 

http://www.WorkingDogForum.com/vBul...ry-away-car-tire-23561/index8.html#post331369


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## Nicole Stark

I don't know Connie, but having a good memory can be a bit of a curse... and now, back to the topic of mental pressure


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## Guest

Nicole Stark said:


> I don't know Connie, but having a good memory can be a bit of a curse... and now, back to the topic of mental pressure


So mental pressure huh? Well, how about Nerve? Confidence? Heart? Courage? What are the differences? How much of it is genetic? Weaning/raising/training?


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## Nicole Stark

Jody Butler said:


> So mental pressure huh? Well, how about Nerve? Confidence? Heart? Courage? What are the differences? How much of it is genetic? Weaning/raising/training?


Oh boy, I'm way in over my head all accounts for my input to be useful to this particular thread. But I'll PM you my thoughts on the questions you presented. O


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## jim stevens

Not so sure about the difference between nerves, heart, courage, and confidence, but they all go together. I have a feeling that heart, nerves are genetic, confidence and courage go together and will come from training and building confidence. This is my opinion, and as I've stated before, I'm not a dog trainer. 

I do know that my dog loves to bite, but would come off when I let her bite in the house and she backed into a chair, fan, whatever, when she was about nine months old. As she gained confidence, now a couple of days ago, I was showing off to my wife, and she will come over the top of the couches to take a bite, and I can drag her over the top, across the floor, back her against the wall, etc. She isn't any different in nerves, IMO, just has confidence now and that gives her courage. Maybe everyone's opinion and definition is different. 

Dogs being animals, and different stimuli are different, I wouldn't take a bet that she would hold if a bunch of dogs were running around distracting her mentally. I fight the same problem with young horses at events, work good at home, are distracted at shows.


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## will fernandez

I dont know my dog is a decent patrol dog...He does some long pretty complicated searches having to navigate all sorts of obstacle, odors and stimulus...The only thing I see him doing is trying to satisfy his prey drive and filling his mouth...When he apprehends someone he is a clamp that tries to possess and keep what he is biting...If the thing fights back or slips out of his mouth..he reengages or tries until his drives are satiated..

I dont know if he has courage, heart or confidence...I do know that he has prey drive out the ass...


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## mike suttle

will fernandez said:


> I dont know if he has courage, heart or confidence...I do know that he has prey drive out the ass...


my guess is that your dog has at least a little of all of those traits mentioned................ as well as prey drive out the ass. from what I've heard your dog is very nice, I'd love to see him someday


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## Bob Scott

Jody Butler said:


> So mental pressure huh? Well, how about Nerve? Confidence? Heart? Courage? What are the differences? How much of it is genetic? Weaning/raising/training?



Without the correct genetics your not going to teach it other then as a cover up. WITH the right genetics the weaninig/raising/training all come into play.


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## Joby Becker

I have posted in the past about keeping a dog off the bite, and challenging him, and said how the confidence will go down with most dogs, if they cannot get to the bite, and people said I was crazy...

It was said that the determination just gets higher. That is not what I have seen with most dogs. Most will get progressively worse with each miss or challenge and break down, that is my theory (and I am sticking to it) based on seeing it happen more than a few times.


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## Nicole Stark

Joby Becker said:


> I have posted in the past about keeping a dog off the bite, and challenging him, and said how the confidence will go down with most dogs, if they cannot get to the bite, and people said I was crazy...


Keeping him off the bite? Do you mean not allowing the dog to engage and instead frustrating it by misses and physical challenges? I mean, said a bit differently this is what I interpret you meant. Also so I can visualize this how do you define "challenges"?

What is expressed to lead you to believe that the dogs confidence starts to diminish? Is it possible that what is actually lessening, which on the surface appears to be a loss of confidence, is in fact the manifestation of something else? 

Joby you are weird not crazy and I won't ever argue otherwise but humor me here. You know I got but one dog to work in front of me. And this is about the only one I ever had, so I sometimes need things explained to me a little more plainly.


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## Joby Becker

Nicole Stark said:


> Keeping him off the bite? Do you mean not allowing the dog to engage and instead frustrating it by misses and physical challenges? I mean, said a bit differently this is what I interpret you meant. Also so I can visualize this how do you define "challenges"?
> 
> What is expressed to lead you to believe that the dogs confidence starts to diminish? Is it possible that what is actually lessening, which on the surface appears to be a loss of confidence, is in fact the manifestation of something else?
> 
> Joby you are weird not crazy and I won't ever argue otherwise but humor me here. You know I got but one dog to work in front of me. And this is about the only one I ever had, so I sometimes need things explained to me a little more plainly.


Pretty much along the lines to what Mike posted in essence, if not exact methods, I assume from what he is saying that he is trying to keep the dog off of the bite. and keeping forward pressure on the dog while trying to not allow a bite.


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## Nicole Stark

I read that. Sounds to me like you are talking about different approaches or you left out a lot. How about this, if I manage to get down there next month I'll bring the dog and you can show me what you mean.

Just don't laugh at her for being little and weird looking ok?


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## Joby Becker

Nicole Stark said:


> I read that. Sounds to me like you are talking about different approaches or you left out a lot. How about this, if I manage to get down there next month I'll bring the dog and you can show me what you mean.
> 
> Just don't laugh at her for being little and weird looking ok?


I think I would love your dog.. PM sent


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## David Frost

will fernandez said:


> I dont know my dog is a decent patrol dog...He does some long pretty complicated searches having to navigate all sorts of obstacle, odors and stimulus...The only thing I see him doing is trying to satisfy his prey drive and filling his mouth...When he apprehends someone he is a clamp that tries to possess and keep what he is biting...If the thing fights back or slips out of his mouth..he reengages or tries until his drives are satiated..
> 
> I dont know if he has courage, heart or confidence...I do know that he has prey drive out the ass...


From your description, your dog is what I consider ideal. I've said in the past; as long as they will engage, sink 'em to the gum line and remain engaged any thing more is just "mine is bigger than yours'. Indeed your dog sounds like a good one.
I guess, as a trainer, understanding and using the current terminology is where I truly lack skills. I just know a good dog when I see one.

DFrost


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## Tiago Fontes

mike suttle said:


> I'm driving to the airport now to pick up some dogs so I'm using my phone and there will likely be some spelling and grammar errors in my post. I was reading the thread about dogs being chased away but before I could comment it was locked. let me first say that I would never purposely run a dog in training. but I have absolutely ran many many dogs in testing for purchase. not 1 of those dogs ever ran from being physically hurt. it's the mental pressure that gets them every time. I will of course put physical pain on a dog, but nothing that will ever cause any long term damage. we test our patrol dog canidates in a bite suit, weather they understand or have trained with a bite suit before or not. I'm not looking at technique, I'm looking for heart, determination, willingness to stay in the fight, etc. I will put my hands on the dog and physically remove him from the suI
> then pin him on the ground and not allow him to bite me, then I will usually pitch him a few feet away from me and charge him as soon as he turns to come back at me. I will use my feet to push him away and I block his attempts to bite me, while I show him a very strong presence and continue to apply mental pressure as he struggles to bite me. none of this causes any physical pain on the dog, but most dogs will run from this type of testing


 
Usually, how old are the dogs when you test them this way?


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## mike suttle

Tiago Fontes said:


> Usually, how old are the dogs when you test them this way?


Usually over two. Sometimes younger. I have seen a few 14 month old dogs easily pass this test, but I've also seen many 4 year old dogs fail bad


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## Brett Bowen

mike suttle said:


> Usually over two. Sometimes younger. I have seen a few 14 month old dogs easily pass this test, but I've also seen many 4 year old dogs fail bad


Since it's relevant to the many discussions going on here these days. How many do you see that don't run for the hills but don't "pass" either, that you think could be helped along? Not asking if you would buy one in that category, just curious how many are in the middle ground that with the right training would do just fine. Or is there even a middle ground?


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## Kadi Thingvall

Joby Becker said:


> I have posted in the past about keeping a dog off the bite, and challenging him, and said how the confidence will go down with most dogs, if they cannot get to the bite, and people said I was crazy...
> 
> It was said that the determination just gets higher. That is not what I have seen with most dogs. Most will get progressively worse with each miss or challenge and break down, that is my theory (and I am sticking to it) based on seeing it happen more than a few times.


I'll stick with it with you  Maybe not "most" but at least "many".

One thing I do when testing a non-FR dog for breeding (it's hard to do with an FR dog due to their training) is have the decoy repeatedly esquive the dog, with heavy barrage and some hits during the barrage/esquive. I don't care if the dog is esquived over and over, that's target training and not what I'm looking at. What I want to see is how the dog handles it, does it come back harder each time, more determined to finally get the bite, or does it give up? And if it gives up, how soon, and what happens? IE does it give up and just stand there with a confused look, or does it run?



> Keeping him off the bite? Do you mean not allowing the dog to engage and instead frustrating it by misses and physical challenges? I mean, said a bit differently this is what I interpret you meant. Also so I can visualize this how do you define "challenges"?


This isn't like the frustration miss miss miss that people do with young dogs, or beginner dogs. Although even there you will sometimes see dogs that if you make them miss to many times they stop trying. This would be more along the lines of taking a young dog, making them miss, and each time they miss smacking them over the head with the stick, or coming into them with heavy threat. Then repeat.


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## john mims

This is what makes trainers different, knowing and reading the dogs, knowing what works with what dogs. This is why there are some dogs that work well in different areas. A good trainer should know how hard to push a young dog, some youngs dogs are better then others, the same with anything. The problem is most people want instant results, and don't want to put in the work. Put the time in and you just may get what you are looking for.


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## Timothy Saunders

Bart Karmich said:


> Here is one of Mike's stupid-hard dogs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cftn_C54ULc I am still waiting for him to post a video of this dog thinking or problem-solving.


 your profile says you do p.p. can we some vids of this thinking p.p. dog you own or have trained. 

and what I meant by finished is he will come off the bite or run once he starts to think.


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## mike suttle

Brett Bowen said:


> Since it's relevant to the many discussions going on here these days. How many do you see that don't run for the hills but don't "pass" either, that you think could be helped along? Not asking if you would buy one in that category, just curious how many are in the middle ground that with the right training would do just fine. Or is there even a middle ground?


Yes, I'd say there is middle ground for sure, and usually the dogs in that catagory are not afraid, they are just confused, and that is OK by me. Those dogs can usually be taught to fight.


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## Timothy Saunders

Joby Becker said:


> I have posted in the past about keeping a dog off the bite, and challenging him, and said how the confidence will go down with most dogs, if they cannot get to the bite, and people said I was crazy...
> 
> It was said that the determination just gets higher. That is not what I have seen with most dogs. Most will get progressively worse with each miss or challenge and break down, that is my theory (and I am sticking to it) based on seeing it happen more than a few times.


I agree with you. Had a dog someone sold a p.p. dog. It was a glorified psa sport dog. the guy brought me in just so the dog take bites from a different decoy. I gave the dog an easy first bite to see its main target. left bicep of course. 
On the next attack I stuffed a clatter stick in his mouth a few times . the dog went into a bark and hold. I asked the owner if he had been taught that and he said no. 

Bart this is your thinking dog for you


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## Ariel Peldunas

Bart Karmich said:


> The best dog is a dog of good understanding, a thinking dog able to solve complex problems.


The best dog for what? I don't disagree that having a dog that is able to problem solve is preferable in certain tasks ...agility, detection, etc. However, if I am relying on a dog (or man, for that matter) to protect me when it really matters and there's no time to think, only time to react, I would much prefer the dog (or man) with heart and no inclination to quit. 

Maybe it's the Marine in me, but the time to stop and come up with a game plan is not in the middle of a fight. Hesitation will get you hurt or killed. If I consider a dog a true protection or dual purpose dog, it needs to be there when it matters. I can do the thinking. 

My own dog is what I would consider a "thinking" dog. Honestly, I would prefer her to be a little dumber and more motivated by pure drive. She is easy to teach things to, but it always seems like she has her own agenda. This has been useful in detection/scenting tasks, but in competition, her brain can be a hurdle for me. She is a sport dog and not my protection dog, but I am still able to see the difference in her and other dog that think less. 

Personally, I think Ivo is an ideal mix of a dog with heart and blinding commitment and intensity that is also able to be clearheaded enough to think when necessary. That mix seems rare, but if you can find it, I think you would have a superior dual purpose dog.


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## Nicole Stark

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Personally, I think Ivo is an ideal mix of a dog with heart and blinding commitment and intensity that is also able to be clearheaded enough to think when necessary. QUOTE]
> 
> In your mind does the activity dictate this (thinking when necessary) or is it something more complex that occurs as events unfold?


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## Travis Ragin

Bart Karmich said:


> make a clamp that does not come off the grip. It's a *clamp*.


http://youtu.be/GcxPewmehyY






Bart Karmich said:


> A *thinking* dog on the bite is going to consider whether what he is doing is working or not.


http://youtu.be/0n3NhuOVLCY


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## Nicole Stark

Travis, those were interesting videos. Thank you for reviving this topic, I'm hoping it might generate some responses to my question about how one defines a clear headed dog. I'd like to know if the activity dictates this (thinking when necessary) or if it's something more complex that occurs as events unfold?

I'm also interested in the behaviors expressed that are typical of a clear headed dog and are these behaviors considered to be genetic or learned?


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## Timothy Saunders

Nicole Stark said:


> Travis, those were interesting videos. Thank you for reviving this topic, I'm hoping it might generate some responses to my question about how one defines a clear headed dog. I'd like to know if the activity dictates this (thinking when necessary) or if it's something more complex that occurs as events unfold?
> 
> I'm also interested in the behaviors expressed that are typical of a clear headed dog and are these behaviors considered to be genetic or learned?


First I think clear headedness is Genetic. jmho a clear headed dog is one that can respond even when in drive , and control his drive to learn behaviors


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## Ariel Peldunas

Nicole Stark said:


> Ariel Peldunas said:
> 
> 
> 
> Personally, I think Ivo is an ideal mix of a dog with heart and blinding commitment and intensity that is also able to be clearheaded enough to think when necessary. QUOTE]
> 
> In your mind does the activity dictate this (thinking when necessary) or is it something more complex that occurs as events unfold?
> 
> 
> 
> I read your question and meant to reply and then this thread disappeared from the new posts and I forgot about it.
> 
> To be honest, I am not sure I understand the question. Before I stumble through a reply that may or may not address your query, can you clarify what you're asking? Thanks!
Click to expand...


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## Nicole Stark

Hi Ariel, I was interested in knowing what you meant what you said "thinking when necessary" (what in your mind demonstrates this, a specific activity for example or something more complex as events unfold). Tim responded and in addition to that I received a number of PMs about clearheadedness. 

It's ok though, I suppose my question really on topic anyway. The subject has come up before and I just thought it might make for interesting conversation on a broader spectrum.


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## will fernandez

I have a young dog at the moment...nice high drive little dog...when I stand in front of him and withhold his reward without saying anything..he will attempt to lunge at it then bark...if I continue to withhold his reward he will attempt every trained response he knows...down,sit stand,back, go out return and spin until I pay him....that to me is a thinking dog....when he is on a bite though all he is thinking about is stuffing his mouth..


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## Thomas Barriano

Travis Ragin said:


> http://youtu.be/GcxPewmehyY


I thought that was a pretty nice puppy. Why did Timmy keep trying to throw him in the trash? 
Seriously, a little whip cracking is stimulating but the freakin puppy is going to be deaf before he's lost his puppy teeth


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## Kadi Thingvall

Nicole Stark said:


> I'm also interested in the behaviors expressed that are typical of a clear headed dog and are these behaviors considered to be genetic or learned?





Tim said:


> First I think clear headedness is Genetic. jmho a clear headed dog is one that can respond even when in drive , and control his drive to learn behaviors.


I should video a couple of pups in our club, they are good examples of genetics regarding clear or unclear, thinking vs reacting. They are both young, 3-4 month. When we do a puppy circle one pup is screaming at the end of the leash, barking, lunging, getting very frustrated and angry. Can't think of anything except that rag and how badly she wants it. When the rag comes near she lunges/strikes, but it's easy to make her do strike after strike and then give her the bite when you want. She can also only take so much frustration before she looses it/melts down. The other pup is at the end of the leash, watching, very alert, following everything that is going on, but you can "see" the wheels turning. When the rag comes near she strikes very fast, and she gets it 60% of the time or more, even when the decoy wants to make her miss. Because she isn't just striking at the rag but she's watching where it's going, and doesn't strike where it was, but where it will be. Self capping is another term some people use to describe the second pup.

I think these two pups are very similar in terms of drive and strike/speed, but their working style is very different. Personally I'd teach the first a little self control and how to think in drive, and try to free the second one up a little (I know the lines and that won't actually be needed, but if I didn't know the lines I would) Actually that carries over into life in general also, the first pup is just very physical in how she plays, rough and tumble but just launching into things. The other pup is also rough and tumble but once again you see those wheels turning, "if I body check this way, the other dog is going to go head over heels".


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## Nicole Stark

will fernandez said:


> I have a young dog at the moment...nice high drive little dog...when I stand in front of him and withhold his reward without saying anything..he will attempt to lunge at it then bark...if I continue to withhold his reward he will attempt every trained response he knows...down,sit stand,back, go out return and spin until I pay him....that to me is a thinking dog....when he is on a bite though all he is thinking about is stuffing his mouth..


OK thats a fair contribution to the discusison I think. The Dutch does this as well although when she does it's my queue to stop that. Just a personal preference but I don't want her cycling through offering behaviors like that. Course I've tricked her a few times and shut the kennel door with food in it. It's not latched so she can open it. What does she do? On top, clawing at it, running into it, and by a process of elimination and some guidance she has learned to open it.

Course the mastiff will just open the door and let herself in. I had a male DDB who seemed to understand the fulcrum of his kennel door. I am sure it wasn't as complex as that but I was a bit surprised when I saw him go the corner of the door and push it inward with his muzzle to open it.

That said speaking in a context entirely out of drive the mastiff is a certainly thinker. Was this because I put every problem imagineable in front of her and taught her to work things out by using her feet, body, movements, etc to do so? Maybe so. She now uses these skills to work through problems which is kinda cool to watch her pair things together to work through something or even communicate something she wants - for example when she wants to eat she will go the room she is fed in and closes the door. 

I've done some of that with the Dutch, not much though because all I ever cared about doing with her was focused mostly on object drive and hunting. I pretty much understood what Ariel meant when I asked the question. I just thought it would be interesting to hear in what context she meant it and if others would chime in about where the thinking when he needs to dog enters the picture.


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## Connie Sutherland

_" Just a personal preference but I don't want her cycling through offering behaviors like that. "


_

IME, that's extinguished when it's not rewarded.


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## Nicole Stark

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I should video a couple of pups in our club, they are good examples of genetics regarding clear or unclear, thinking vs reacting. They are both young, 3-4 month. When we do a puppy circle one pup is screaming at the end of the leash, barking, lunging, getting very frustrated and angry. Can't think of anything except that rag and how badly she wants it. When the rag comes near she lunges/strikes, but it's easy to make her do strike after strike and then give her the bite when you want. She can also only take so much frustration before she looses it/melts down. The other pup is at the end of the leash, watching, very alert, following everything that is going on, but you can "see" the wheels turning. When the rag comes near she strikes very fast, and she gets it 60% of the time or more, even when the decoy wants to make her miss. Because she isn't just striking at the rag but she's watching where it's going, and doesn't strike where it was, but where it will be. Self capping is another term some people use to describe the second pup.
> 
> 
> 
> I know you didn't intend to do this but you did an excellent job describing my dog and a similar aged Mal in our club. Both strike well, bite hard, committed, but mine is that screaming one. She's the one that you kinda have to look away from when she's working because she isn't thinking and a bit of a mess (I take responsibility for not getting together a consistent enough training plan for her to get and keep her on track).
> 
> Surely though, after seeing dogs that are related to her I know that this is driven by genetics but I'll go on record for also saying I probably didn't concentrate on the right things with her at a young age. Had I, I don't believe I'd be dealing with all these glorious expressions of Wasabi. Heck, that last video I posted of her serves as evidence of that you don't see her at the onset but you sure hear her making a racket.
> 
> The reason I presented the question about it being genetic or learned had something to with her or a dog that genetically doesn't show itself as a thinking dog. Have people found that they can create a dog that thinks when they need to? I really don't have anything to based this off but I think you can. Will it ever show itself as well as the genetically clear headed dog? Probably not but I guess I will find out.
Click to expand...


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## Nicole Stark

Connie Sutherland said:


> _" Just a personal preference but I don't want her cycling through offering behaviors like that. "_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IME, that's extinguished when it's not rewarded.


Right. The example given wasn't quite what I was referring to though. Sorry about that, I probably should have been more specific. The mere possession of an object with nothing asked generally induces that. I understand this. 

I meant I don't like to see it if the dog does that when I have asked it to do something else and possibly hold it for a bit longer or there's more distance than typical betwen us. If I see it, that's my queue to go back to the basics for a while and work on removing a general context from the exercise.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Connie Sutherland said:


> _" Just a personal preference but I don't want her cycling through offering behaviors like that. "_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IME, that's extinguished when it's not rewarded.


In the marker training, its been referred to as "spontaneous rehearsal." I phased it out in one dog by not rewarding a behavior unless I asked for it with the command. I think with that dog it occurred alot at that time because he had learned several behaviors before I put cues/commands on them. With the current pups I taught one behaviore/cue at a time so as not to go through the spontaneous rehearsal phase. Platz is the first thing they learned though so when confused, that's what they are going to do. But as Will says I bet even with them, if I stood there and and did nothing nd said nothing and rewardd [stock/food] were in sniffing distance, they would offer every previously rewarded behavior they know--especially Rhemy. Ariel's dog reminds me of mine that are more independent and think they know the answer. The bite stuff seems to be a trigger and if they do it, its not hesitant and its with full commitment. Saw a puppy like Kadi describes that would constantly eye/watch the rag and then strike--commited and no miss. However, the people at the event thought the lunging screaming type of dog was more "driven." I've always sorta put them in two camps which Kadi's pups sort of exemplify--mental/analytical vs. body/reactive. 

T


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## Nicole Stark

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> However, the people at the event thought the lunging screaming type of dog was more "driven."
> T


Earlier Joby commented on dogs who would eventually show what he called losing confidence when being kept off the bite. He said not every dog did this but many did. I wonder if he found a difference in either of the type dogs that were described earlier by Kadi - the thinking less reactive one vs the one that expresses greater reactivity and less mental clarity while in drive.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

I wonder if in thinking of the bite work you all look at dogs that bite well physically but are also applying mental pressure to the decoy? If so, how do you know? I have a load/explode dog and another that is close. The puppy is capping himself because of marker training. He can start to spin up in lala land and suddenly he will perform a rewarded behavior and look at me. While I like it that the puppy caps, I keep thinking that it may still be a control issue if he gets to lala land and I can't cap him. We'll have to see as he gets older and when the stimulation increases. The older dog that was not started with marker training only has the ability to think/cap at certain lower drive levels. She is not thinking if she has really gone to load/explode. Load/explode is less at this age but its still there.

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Nicole Stark said:


> Earlier Joby commented on dogs who would eventually show what he called losing confidence when being kept off the bite. He said not every dog did this but many did. I wonder if he found a difference in either of the type dogs that were described earlier by Kadi - the thinking less reactive one vs the one that expresses greater reactivity and less mental clarity while in drive.


The thinker that I watched never gave up but I think they were frustrated that she didn't lunge/bark and then the next conclusion was to question her drive. JO had a pup out of Esko that struck me as a thinker gauging the rag and Esko appeared that way as a young dog. However, they placed the puppy in a pet home. I think the more reactive in a puppy people are more encouraged that they will have the drive for the work. When I'm looking at puppies in herding I'm probably the same way for certain breeds. Rhemy had the stock obsession but he was obviously thinking and I can get into his head. He's the first I've seen like that so far but my training has also changed. I wondered by Joby's description--what context. Have watched decoys working with a lot of misses but pup still continued to try to get it and were still thinking.

T


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## Joby Becker

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I wonder if in thinking of the bite work you all look at dogs that bite well physically but are also applying mental pressure to the decoy? If so, how do you know? I have a load/explode dog and another that is close. The puppy is capping himself because of marker training. He can start to spin up in lala land and suddenly he will perform a rewarded behavior and look at me. While I like it that the puppy caps, I keep thinking that it may still be a control issue if he gets to lala land and I can't cap him. We'll have to see as he gets older and when the stimulation increases. The older dog that was not started with marker training only has the ability to think/cap at certain lower drive levels. She is not thinking if she has really gone to load/explode. Load/explode is less at this age but its still there.
> 
> T


The mental pressure comes FROM the decoy, not the dog applying it *to* the decoy...


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## Joby Becker

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> The thinker that I watched never gave up but I think they were frustrated that she didn't lunge/bark and then the next conclusion was to question her drive. JO had a pup out of Esko that struck me as a thinker gauging the rag and Esko appeared that way as a young dog. However, they placed the puppy in a pet home. I think the more reactive in a puppy people are more encouraged that they will have the drive for the work. When I'm looking at puppies in herding I'm probably the same way for certain breeds. Rhemy had the stock obsession but he was obviously thinking and I can get into his head. He's the first I've seen like that so far but my training has also changed. I wondered by Joby's description--what context. Have watched decoys working with a lot of misses but pup still continued to try to get it and were still thinking.
> 
> T


The context of making the dog miss, and trying to make him NOT bite, not puppy stuff.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Joby Becker said:


> The mental pressure comes FROM the decoy, not the dog applying it *to* the decoy...


 
The question is do you think a dog is trying to use mental pressure on the decoy? I know the mental pressure comes from the decoy. Ever have a dog try to stare you down on the bite?

T


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## Joby Becker

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> The question is do you think a dog is trying to use mental pressure on the decoy? I know the mental pressure comes from the decoy. Ever have a dog try to stare you down on the bite?
> 
> T


 the dogs learn to do certain things, that result in the decoy doing certain things..

depends on the bite area but if a dog* isnt* staring you down on the bite, there is a problem....I's say...most of the time anyhow..


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## Nicole Stark

Joby Becker said:


> The mental pressure comes FROM the decoy, not the dog applying it *to* the decoy...


Yeah for sure. I hesitated in responding to this question/specific aspect of the discussion but there are aspects of the physical presence with certain dogs that the best I can describe as pushy and almost demanding, which one might describe in the way T presented her question. I know these are stupid descriptives but I think about the bulldog in our club and how he'd get right up on the helper and his presence was so in your face that you couldn't help but think he was bullying the helper to move so he'd have a reason to engage. Mental pressure? Ah, I'm a bit of a simpleton, I really don't know about any of that.


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## Joby Becker

Nicole Stark said:


> Yeah for sure. I hesitated in responding to this question/specific aspect of the discussion but there are aspects of the physical presence with certain dogs that the best I can describe as pushy and almost demanding, which one might describe in the way T presented her question. I know these are stupid descriptives but I think about the bulldog in our club and how he'd get right up on the helper and his presence was so in your face that you couldn't help but think he was bullying the helper to move so he'd have a reason to engage. Mental pressure? Ah, I'm a bit of a simpleton, I really don't know about any of that.


I misunderstood what she was saying, looking at it a different way, I can say that I HAVE had dogs apply mental pressure to me....to be honest, when looking at it that way...I guess most dogs actually try in various ways, thinking about it...only some succeed...  when I used to catch more dogs, there were certain ones I could have skipped


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Nicole's got it. In looking at dogs I thought were of the thinking variety in the bite work, this is something that I noticed. There's ones that watch you but he had a quality of staring right through you daring you. One of the younger dogs would try to physically overpower and go right through the decoy. Same on the stock. Its easier to see in sleeve work than the suit. Some dogs like to bite and its a physical thing and conditioned. Others take it to another level and you can see it in the eyes and the eye contact--or so it seems to me. Wondering how much this type of interaction decoys look at in reading/assessing the dog or is it more body language, bite intensity, etc.

T


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## Gillian Schuler

I don't know about applying mental pressure but dogs can suss out a weaker from a stronger decoy in a second which can be a problem or a blessing at a trial. With a weak decoy, they become stronger and with a strong decoy, they are more likely to stay under control or, if the handler has less control over the dog, there can be a fiasco.

Just think of a pup that comes into a new household - he's got the whole family sussed out within seconds.

My dogs were far harder to control if we had a mentally weak decoy as opposed to a mentally strong one. Actually, if you know the decoy personally, it's not hard to suss it out yourself.


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## Joby Becker

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Wondering how much this type of interaction decoys look at in reading/assessing the dog or is it more body language, bite intensity, etc.
> T


It is all part of the picture. absolutely necessary to notice that type of thing.


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## Bob Scott

Gillian Schuler said:


> I don't know about applying mental pressure but dogs can suss out a weaker from a stronger decoy in a second which can be a problem or a blessing at a trial. With a weak decoy, they become stronger and with a strong decoy, they are more likely to stay under control or, if the handler has less control over the dog, there can be a fiasco.
> 
> Just think of a pup that comes into a new household - he's got the whole family sussed out within seconds.
> 
> My dogs were far harder to control if we had a mentally weak decoy as opposed to a mentally strong one. Actually, if you know the decoy personally, it's not hard to suss it out yourself.



I experienced that getting my dog Thunder's III. Weak decoy mentally and physically. Thunder NEVER had an out problem but he wanted to take this guy down and just did out on my last call. Thunder was clean as new glass with good decoys.


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