# White chest patches on Dutch Shepherds



## Rochele Smit

So I have always wondered where the white patches that are seen on so many Dutchies come from. I know that FCI states that dutch crosses often have a higher incidence of this, but just wondering why this is? Zonya has no white, but her Dam has a medium patch on her chest, and I know a few of her littermate's had small white patches. Shadow who is out of Robbie (littermate to Spike V Leeuwen) x Amber(Dam to Oz's Jett), has a tiny little patch about the size of a quarter.
Zonya's pedigree: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dogs/dutch_shepherd/pedigree/920585.html
Shadow's pedigree: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dogs/dutch_shepherd/pedigree/920591.html

I was visiting the website of the breeder who I got Zonya from checking out their current litters. One litter has a super high incidence of white patches, especially the one two in from the left.









I was just wondering the opinion of Dutch Shepherd breeders on this. (KNPV/working Dutch lines, not FCI show) How undesirable is this? And those who have had white patches show up, have you been able to trace it back to see where they come from? If the Sire/Dam are both great working dogs and the pups turn out great, do you repeat the breeding not caring about the white patches that show up? (hypothetical example - the litter above, which is a first time breeding and all pups have medium-ish patches)

Any input or thoughts on any of this?


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## Anna Kasho

I have no clue... That pup with the white socks and pointy ears is way too cute though. Flashy, and decidedly un-dutchie-like LOL. I have never seen that much white on a dutchie before, how interesting!


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## Carlos Machado

At one time dutch shepherds were mostly white they banned the color in 1910.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

We have some white patches in litters, mostly not bigger than a quarter and nearly noticable when they're adult. Also some white hairs on toes or a white toe. Mostly is gone away when adult.

Personally I don't mind a little white but in above litter there is to much for my personal preference. Never seen it this much in our own litter though. 
the white could be caused as an oposite of black, but I'm not sure in this case.


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## mike suttle

I have never had or even seen a litter of Dutchies with that much white on them. As Selena said, some of our puppies have a very small white spot on their chests, but nothing like this in the picture.


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## Nicole Stark

Anna Kasho said:


> I have no clue... That pup with the white socks and pointy ears is way too cute though. Flashy, and decidedly un-dutchie-like LOL. I have never seen that much white on a dutchie before, how interesting!


That puppy is pretty cute. Looks like a little spit fire with those upright tiny little ears particularly because it also appears to be the smallest in the litter. Almost looked like someone dropped in a baby Akita into the litter for picture taking purposes.


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## Gillian Schuler

Well, snap Nicole - the Akita is what came into my mind, too!


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## Nicole Stark

That little shit is really cute. White aside, the puppy looks like a tiny monster that the others think twice about messing with. Everyone else has a please let me go look on their face, this little one has a "you, talkin' to me ?", look on it's face. I'm a total sucker for firecracker runts.


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## Joby Becker

very odd indeed


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## Vendo Vincent

Maybe the boarder collie from next door payed a vist while no one was looking.


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## Amanda Caldron

I have two females with some white on them.... I have seen it often and as others mentioned what may appear to be very large in a small pup usually decreases in size over time. I personally think though when entire feet or chest is covered is too much. I don't believe there is any connected link to working ability in these dogs and if it would limit someone's choice to breed to one if they fit all attributes of a great working dog. Good question, I too am curious how this is thrown.


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## Toran Scott

Selena or Mike (or any other Dutchie breeder) just curious why you prefer small or no white patch on your pups (versus large white patches or more)? Does the patch indicate something I'm not aware of? I have always liked the white patch just cuz I like the look but I'm not sure what it would matter one way or another but I'm not a breeder or even long time Dutchie guy so I'd love to hear your opinions. My T.D. imported an IPO1 Mali bitch from Croatia for a couple at our club and the bitch is really dark with a decent sized white patch on her chest. I have only seen DSxMal pups with Mali coats and white chests. Have no idea on the ped on the imported bitch but my understanding was she is FCI registered as a Mal. Just curious if you guys have seen really dark Mali's with the white patch on FCI Mals. 
Toran


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## Harry Keely

Some white is OK but covered in it is not in my eyes as a desired trait of the breed. But like somebody said earlier they were pre dominantly white until the early 1900's and then was done away with. My litters and dutchies do have white but my previous litter had little to none on them. Most of it will disappear though as they do get older as long as it isn't a huge spot or to much on the toes.


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## Kadi Thingvall

The white patterning in Malinois is similiar to the white patterning in Boxers, genetically. The difference being that it's not desired in Malinois so people breed away from it, and in Boxer's they try to breed for that perfect percent of white. I'm going to guess that the genetics in DS are similar also, especially since there has been a fair amount of crossing back and forth between the Mali and DS in the Dutch (KNPV) program.

I've seen everything from no white at all, to Malinois with big white chests and even a thin pencil strip going up the middle of their head (think thin blaze on a Boxer), to full white socks on the front legs. I've also seen dogs with full white chests, white feet, etc produce pups with almost no white at all.

I agree minimal is best, but the best working Malinois I've owned had a big white chest on him, didn't detract in any way from his working abilities although it sure got a lot of comments LOL He produced everything from pups with no white at all, to pups with a lot of it. A very well known Malinois stud, Elgos du Chemin des Plaines, is known for producing white in his descendents, I would expect the DS to have similar dogs/lines. 

My boy Enzo with his white chest









Elgos - known for producing white


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## Selena van Leeuwen

no, nothing to do with workabilty or any problems. I just don't like much white in them, neither in (x) mali's. See it as my eye of beauty. Although a floppy eared dog with a with chest and very high legs can get beautiful if it crushes a decoy's leg :mrgreen:


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## Carlos Machado

This site http://longhaireddutchshepherd.com/History.html goes into the history and the rules changed a few times reallowing white till 1960 for more genetic diversety. I first read it on the english version of the Dutch shepherd club in holland but can only find it in Dutch.


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## jan reuvekamp

Carlos Machado said:


> This site http://longhaireddutchshepherd.com/History.html goes into the history and the rules changed a few times reallowing white till 1960 for more genetic diversety. I first read it on the english version of the Dutch shepherd club in holland but can only find it in Dutch.


FCI standard DS

COLOUR :
Brindle. The basic colour is golden or silver. Golden can vary from light sand- coloured to chestnut red. The brindle is clearly present all over the body, in the ruff, breeches and tail. Too much black is undesirable. A black mask is preferable.

Heavy white markings on chest or feet is not desirable.

Jan


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## Toran Scott

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> no, nothing to do with workabilty or any problems. I just don't like much white in them, neither in (x) mali's. See it as my eye of beauty. Although a floppy eared dog with a with chest and very high legs can get beautiful if it crushes a decoy's leg :mrgreen:


I agree... O



I like the contrast of a little white but it's purely cosmetic. I don't mind if my dogs stand out a bit visually but I'd prefer to see them stand out for their working ability:wink:. I was simply curious if there was any other reason for breeding away from white besides cosmetic. Thanks for the responses...
Toran


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## Patrick Salerno

As long as the dog can work, I think its ok.
Here is some info I found online on the history of the Dutch Shepherd.
You all can tell me how accurate it is, as I am a novice to the breed.


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## Carlos Machado

This site explains the reasons behind the changes http://www.sevenpineskennel.com/dutch_shepherd_history.htm this is from the site "*They started to worry about conformation, and at agriculture shows, just like in Belgium, a certain number of shepherds appeared that may have looked similar in type, but certainly not in color. "
"**The desire to create a breed that would clearly distinguish itself from the German and Belgian Shepherd dogs led to a color restriction in 1914. **Silver or gold-brindle for the shorthair, silver and gold brindle, as well as pepper and salt and blue-gray for the rough hair, and silver and gold brindle plus auburn for the longhair. Silver being gray stripes on black, and gold being yellow or red stripes on black. The minimum sizes for the short and rough haired varieties were raised by about two inches, with a little less for the longhaired variety. From that moment on all white was forbidden. Those drastic restrictions in permitted color and/or size led to an enormous deterioration of the available genetic material. More than anything, the exclusion of all white excluded an enormous amount of dogs from the breed pool since white is such a dominant gene. In Belgium however, yellow Dutch Shepherds with white markings could suddenly be entered as Belgian Shepherds (shorthair, Malinois) since there was no restriction of white there. Brindle Belgians could, in return, be entered as Dutch Shepherds. In 1928 some white was permitted again, and in 1934, yellow, red, brown, and liver were re-introduced as permitted colors for the shorthair, with yellow and reddish brown, as well as ashen re-introduced for the rough air. The longhair had no color changes. It was too late however. The breed base was small and a lot of good dogs had already been excluded due to the several color and structure changes. The clock could not be turned back again. In 1960 the colors were restricted back to the way things were in 1914. Only this time the auburn longhair disappeared"*


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## Kamryn

My dutchy is a great working dog and has white toes and a pretty pronounced white chest. He doesn't have a pedigree though so I've wondered if he's actually mixed somewhere down the line or not.


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