# Ok opinions....



## Chris Duhon (May 24, 2007)

Here is the senario...........

Your looking for a PP dog or a PSD, you run across a large healthy GSD he is 18mo old. He was raised in a family enviroment, but go to be to much for them. He started chasing people down the street, and just getting out of hand with his aggression. however he is not neccessarily a loose cannon. In fact very level headed, just lack of training, or I should say no training, not even OB at this point. You get him, and have 8 weeks to either make him a patrol dog, or sell him to a person looking for a perimeter deterance dog, and they don't actually want a bite dog.

Now,
You get with someone who really knows what they are doing in terms of civil aggitation and working defense. 
The dog shows ALOT of go get'em, so you are ready to test the dog and see where he is naturally at, at this point in time. 
You post up with a 6ft leash, and the aggitator starts doing his thing. The dog fires up great, He pulls and is showing forward aggression, but when the aggitator gives him a little, he quicky backs up behind you still barking, the aggitator backs up and draws the dog back forward, as long as the aggitator is backing up thedog attempts to move forward like he wants to get the guy, the helper starts to run while holding the sleeve out and behind him attempting to feed a bite to the dog so he can see he can win through a bite. 
Instead of biting the dog runs up until 3 feet from the helper, and refuses to go further or bite, instead when the helper turns and looks at him he backs up leash distance behind the handler.

My question is do you think this is a fair test for this dog to see if he would be a PSD or PP dog candidate, to begin training in that field, also, what would you have done with him given the clients that were presented.
PSD, PPD or perimeter deterance dog, or none of the above? 
Thanks guys

PS: BTW, I have my answer just want to see where it compares to everyone else.
~CHRIS DUHON


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

i think this is one of those unique scenarios. first thing to realize is that this is potentially a diamond in the rough. i would assume that you get this dog for free or very close to it. that does factor in...

now, it's obvious that the dog is not comfortable working in defense at this point. it would seem by his chasing kids thing that he has some prey. this dog has probably never been in the type of confrontation that this presented him. i would know more after four or five more sessions. mixing some prey type stuff in with that above scenario to teach the dog that forward aggression wins the fight. 

this dog is not a "natural", but that doesn't mean he couldn't be a passable dog with training. factoring in the cost of the dog, i wouldn't scrap him after that one session...


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I would not be comfortable with having him as a patrol dog. Sport maybe, but not as you are describing. He would be good for teaching new decoys to be carefull to watch for avoidance. Good teaching dog, cause what is the worse that can happen?


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## Chris Duhon (May 24, 2007)

on a 1-10 drive level he has a 2 for the ball and a 2 for the tug. He didn't know the tug until I introduced it to him. Intrest in it is very minimal, but will play with it with you for about 3min, but won't hold it and shows no posessiveness. He goes crazy over water spraying from the hose, very drivey for that but nothing else.

Was having this discussion about this dog with a friend, and I'm sending the dog to work Perimeter for the client that wants a deterant and non-biting dog. He Barks loud and deep and continous and looks huge and mean behind a fence. I think he could be worked with and after a long time and alot of work, he maybe a PP dog enough for what most general people need, but I feel he doesn't have enough natural comfort working in Defense for a PSD.

~CHRIS DUHON


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

What you describe he acts kinda like my showline :lol: Level 2 for the tug, CRAZY for the water hose, looks big and mean but when sh** hits the fan he'll stand 3ft away and bark.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I would not be comfortable with having him as a patrol dog. Sport maybe, but not as you are describing. He would be good for teaching new decoys to be carefull to watch for avoidance. Good teaching dog, cause what is the worse that can happen?


I agree with Jeff. 

<<<You get with someone who really knows what they are doing in terms of civil aggitation and working defense.>>>

<<when the aggitator gives him a little, he quicky backs up behind you still barking,>>>

If the decoy really knows what he's doing as you stated, and the dog went completely behind the handler, that's too weak. I could understand a look back at the handler, or even a step back, but then holding ground, but not going behind the handler. 

DFrost


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## Bryan Colletti (Feb 16, 2007)

In my opinion Civil tests should be quick, just a look at temperment. Whether the dog will bite or not is of importance to me, but not huge.

I have Police Officers all the time asking me to tape my dogs doing these tests. To me, they are horrible tests, because most importantly they leave an imprint memerory and actually make the dogs nervy and suspicous. 

The fact that you had an 18 month old dog, not quite an adult, that stood his ground with no prior training. Gives you information that he is ready for more confidence building work. Some dogs simply need to be taught to bite a bad guy. 

What would concern me is taking a level headed dog and making him sharp with these tests. I can teach a poodle to pass a civil test, making them go into survival mode. 

So to me, this test should be about his body language in the earliest parts of the tests, how quickly he becomes watchful, when does watchful become concerned, and does concerned become challenging or scared to death. If he confident but doesn't know if he can bite a person. I don't mind at all. If the body language is avoidance, with sniffing and ignoring your decoy, forget it. 

I would imagine he has been yelled at and scolded in the past from his owners for showing dominant aggressive behaviour, which may in turn cause confusion or hesisitation during a civil test. So, if you took him for a week and built confidence in bitework, showing him when appropriate aggression is ok, he would blow through a civil test and forget the restrictions his prior owners may have put on him. 

The chasing people history you mention, tells me just what I mention, this is a young dog, with Prey aggression, combined with no clear leader, it causes a lot of confusion in a dog. Do I chase and bite, his mind is telling him to. But, he has been scolded for it too. So it's like a Dual personality disorder, until you {Chris} come in and teach him the rules of your pack, that you can show how and when to use his genetics. He won't reach his potential in confidence.

To me, this dog needs more of you and him bonding, training, and exercize before a civil test should be done. You can certainly do drive testing, to see where he functions most confidently. Try working some small defense work and then quickly rescue him with prey movements. Then work possession with him. I would suggest no straight civil tests yet, as you may make him unstable, in which case, PP dog will be his only lot in life.

Just my seven cents
Be at peace,
Bryan


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## Chris Duhon (May 24, 2007)

Bryan, great points, and I can see all of what you stated. The test was kept short, like no more than 30sec. This test had to be conducted because I needed to know where this dog stands now, where would we be starting off training at, and the reason, is that I needed to have this dog ready for a department in short order. The time it would take was not on my side. So instead I know he would make a great perimeter dog at this time, he's much stronger behind a fence. 
This led to a discussion among some friends of mine and I thought I would hear others opinions. Thanks guys

~CHRIS DUHON


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Bryan Colletti said:


> In my opinion Civil tests should be quick, just a look at temperment. Whether the dog will bite or not is of importance to me, but not huge.
> 
> I have Police Officers all the time asking me to tape my dogs doing these tests. To me, they are horrible tests, because most importantly they leave an imprint memerory and actually make the dogs nervy and suspicous.
> 
> ...


^^^basically what i was saying, but didn't want to type all that. i agree with bryan...


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## Bryan Colletti (Feb 16, 2007)

Tim Martens said:


> ^^^basically what i was saying, but didn't want to type all that. i agree with bryan...




Well, that is because we are freaking brilliant!

Be at peace


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