# question about reward



## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

My dog has been refusing her reward occasionally on cadaver finds. When she has a find, she sits and barks. She will take a reward, usually a tug, when she is on top of or sees the hide. The problem with the toy refusal has come up recently when she has a find that is completely out of reach or sight. For example in a locker or buried deep. never had a problem before with this.

She will get in the odor, confirm and alert with no problem. I"ll throw the toy, and it will literally bounce off her head, she continues barking. If I open the locker she gets right to it with her nose and realerts and will take the toy. if I don't let her see it she moves on and will continue to work or quit if we are finished. 

All seems normal elsewhere, she continues to work and still alerts fine. The only change has been adding the bark, and her alerting with me out of sight, for disaster training. She is 18 months old. Any suggestions or thoughts on why she is not taking the reward? I have tried different toys, and food rewards, doesn't matter, and her desire to work is still great.

may take me a bit to respond back to posts.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I'd suggest that is a learned behavior. Each time you uncover the target so she can get to source, then the reward, you are actually rewarding that specific behavior. I would, once the dog has responded, give the verbal praise, produce the primary reward and leave the area. The dog has given the final response and the reward is present. They'll get the idea rather quickly.

DFrost


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

Good advice Dave. I.have to say I kind of like that. You now have a little more info If the dog takes the toy you are at the source. If it doesn't you know the search area is bigger


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I just have to ask out of real curiosity. Is there a problem with the dog working for praise? Because the dog knows the job and enjoys doing it as long as he alerts. I always thought the rewards were just an inducement to get the dogs to perform the task reliably. If they get the job done without needing reward, why force it on them? Just curious.


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

Hi Don-

Nope, the dog can be (and should be) rewarded by what motivates him most. If the dog isn’t truly interested in a toy then why would be put 100% into his work to win it? 

It’s like paying me with peanuts. I wouldn’t be too thrilled to work for that

Praise and play with the handler is very important, and should be cultivated as young as possible, because for those of us who trial, we don’t have anything else with us come trial day. It is the handlers who have a strong relationship with their dogs, even when without a toy or food, that get the best performances consistently from their dog. There comes a time where the dog must work for the handler and nothing else.

Tracey


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Thank you Tracey


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Tracey Hughes said:


> Hi Don-
> 
> Nope, the dog can be (and should be) rewarded by what motivates him most. If the dog isn’t truly interested in a toy then why would be put 100% into his work to win it?
> 
> ...



Pretty much why I like a tug reward for ANY rewardable behavior. It's the interaction between dog and handler that I prefer. Just winning a ball and the handler is no longer a part of it. The dog has what it wants. 
Praise is good IF the particular dog finds it to be that high a reward. One of my GSDs could fit that description. Both my GSDs will work for praise but the older one is an absolute freak for a game of tug so why not!


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## Tanya Beka (Aug 12, 2008)

I have also heard of cadaver dogs becoming upset over their finds as they are always "dead" and having them do live finds from time to time can perk them up. Maybe not true in this case, but just a thought.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Tanya...no that is a myth.....i think david pegged it...i also think the dog is getting to used to a visual confirmation...and he has trained a lot of dwtection dogs and dog handlers for a living......


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Thanks for the replies. Greta loves the finds, she has always been rewarded and its fun to find them. Don't think she is depressed at all. I think she just wants that final 'here it is' moment.
Timothy, it is handy sometimes, as she will point out with her nose a tooth in gravel, or a tiny bone fragment I would otherwise overlook. She is usually within a foot or two either way of the source. Then again she has tried to dig up sources, which on a crime scene would not be good.

David, I believe you are spot on, as in early training I would let her confirm her find. That stopped once she had the odor, but now its like she is obsessed with seeing it again. I'll do what you said and praise then leave. She is smart should get it fast.

Don, I reward all the time just because I wouldn't want to work for free. Greta does not like to be petted when working. The dutchie on the other hand (just starting) I toss her ball and she runs up for petting. So with her I may go to praise later, as she LOVES that as a reward. Whatever works for each dog.

Tracey, I tried Greta's favorite toy- a wooden dowel. she will false alert every five feet ha ha! She is obsessed with wood toys or sticks, but that did not work with her. However she loves any toy. Raven is obsessed with tennis balls and that works perfect for her.

I also track with her, actually trail (get my words correct here). She loves it too, used to have the victim give her treats, but now just finding the person is reward enough as they play with her.

I really want to be sure I don't mess this dog up, she has done well with me in the learning phase. I have been able to train with our local PD, various SAR groups, but mostly have been on our own. I'm now working with TEMA handlers, so hopefully they can get me ready lol. Thanks again.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Tanya Beka said:


> I have also heard of cadaver dogs becoming upset over their finds as they are always "dead" and having them do live finds from time to time can perk them up. Maybe not true in this case, but just a thought.



My first cadaver dog absolutely freaked out the first time we saw a full body cadaver. She could work HR all day with no problems. 
I'm not knowledgable enough to say why.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I just have to ask out of real curiosity. Is there a problem with the dog working for praise? Because the dog knows the job and enjoys doing it as long as he alerts. I always thought the rewards were just an inducement to get the dogs to perform the task reliably. If they get the job done without needing reward, why force it on them? Just curious.


I never use toy or food rewards when herding. My dog loves working sheep and would do it till he dropped if I let him. I just guide him and put commands on his natural instincts and let him know when he is doing well by tone of voice. He has zero interest in toys or food when working sheep. It is where he and I have the closest bond heading out to work sheep. Toys and food are not part of that equation. Penning the sheep or doing a good job, when we are finished he and I walk away together with the mutual satisfaction of a job well done.

Training in agility is different, I use tugging and food to train him in that venue and although he does well and is very fast and keen, it doesnt feel quite the same. It is a different relationship.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Sara Waters said:


> I never use toy or food rewards when herding. My dog loves working sheep and would do it till he dropped if I let him. I just guide him and put commands on his natural instincts and let him know when he is doing well by tone of voice. He has zero interest in toys or food when working sheep. It is where he and I have the closest bond heading out to work sheep. Toys and food are not part of that equation. Penning the sheep or doing a good job, when we are finished he and I walk away together with the mutual satisfaction of a job well done.
> 
> Training in agility is different, I use tugging and food to train him in that venue and although he does well and is very fast and keen, it doesnt feel quite the same. It is a different relationship.


Does anyone use food or toys when herding? I never herded with a dog in my life..but I can tell you if a dog wanted a toy or food during herding, if herding was a serious interest of mine, I would get a different dog..

That seems to me like rewarding a hunting dog with a toy ...dog is different drive/mode..

kinda like my dog with biting/fighting in bitework I am sure... food and toys are invisible when in the presence of a decoy/agitator..


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> Does anyone use food or toys when herding? I never herded with a dog in my life..but I can tell you if a dog wanted a toy or food during herding, if herding was a serious interest of mine, I would get a different dog..
> 
> That seems to me like rewarding a hunting dog with a toy ...dog is different drive/mode..
> 
> kinda like my dog with biting/fighting in bitework I am sure... food and toys are invisible when in the presence of a decoy/agitator..


No they dont, a working sheepdog should find the job of working stock the most rewarding thing to do.

So if a dog is not interested in a reward after completing a search and finding the cadaver or what ever (I know nothing about search and rescue) I dont know what the big deal is over a dog not interested in taking a reward, especially if it loves the work. 

I would take less money to do a job I really loved than more money to do one that I wasnt so keen on. 

I had an agility dog once that loved running agility with me. Rewards were of very little consequence for her and she put her heart and soul in to each run and was never really interested in toys or food at the end. She would have preferred to have gone back out for another go, but only with me. My other dogs like a reward, but she couldnt have cared less.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> Does anyone use food or toys when herding? I never herded with a dog in my life..but I can tell you if a dog wanted a toy or food during herding, if herding was a serious interest of mine, I would get a different dog..
> 
> That seems to me like rewarding a hunting dog with a toy ...dog is different drive/mode..
> 
> kinda like my dog with biting/fighting in bitework I am sure... food and toys are invisible when in the presence of a decoy/agitator..


I used reward based training for the "commands" away from the stock (move off, go by, away to me, etc. It did give me a bit more control only because I was in the dog's head and he was programed/muscle memory/Operant ??? whatever you want to call it, with good marker training. 
With that I can honestly say that nothing, including someone with a sleeve, brought out anything near his desire to work stock. Initially it was very frustrating for me, being the control freak I am, ignoring my commands for some damn sheep. :lol:


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Bob Scott said:


> I used reward based training for the "commands" away from the stock (move off, go by, away to me, etc. It did give me a bit more control only because I was in the dog's head and he was programed/muscle memory/Operant ??? whatever you want to call it, with good marker training.
> With that I can honestly say that nothing, including someone with a sleeve, brought out anything near his desire to work stock. Initially it was very frustrating for me, being the control freak I am, ignoring my commands for some damn sheep. :lol:


I find when my dog ignores my commands when working stock it is usually for a good reason. He has very good instincts on sheep so I generally keep my mouth shut. The one thing he does lack is width, so I have taught him the off command but for my next dog I am going to look for one with better natural width so it has natural instinct not to crowd sheep although you dont want pressure break which is a sign of a weak dog like my kelpie. The more natural ability a dog has inherited, the less you need to train various moves as they are inherited traits and not trained programed muscle memory. I cant imagine using food or toys while working sheep. I see a lot of moves my dog makes are not trained by me they are naturally inherited so I work with them and put a command system in place to control them if I need to, but I dont teach those moves.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Well, as Bob knows, I've used food rewards for VERY high drive herding dogs and they are not dogs that would be described as biddable. Reward through the handler vs. reward through the stock have greatly increased their reliability. Sara's response is typical old school training philosophy for a breed of dog for which pressure release training was designed for. Old school training was based on withholding the stock until the dog does the desired behavior. I think there is a lot of conflict/stress/confusion with old school training. As Sara points out, there are traits that are selected for in certain eye breeds to the point they are instinctive [like releasing pressure or not going into pressure] that are stock useful in some situations. Other breeds don't have those traits as instinct so it is very difficult/or impossible to use pressure release training with them. They fight it. 

In protection training, you can have the reward come from the decoy with a reward bite or reward come through the handler with tugging with the handler. There is an obedience part of herding just like with protection work. I use reward through the handler instead of reward through the stock when I can. My bouv initially worked with reward being the marker as a release from what I called the command state where she would zing around the stock. She was not going to return to me for a food reward and she doesn't see toys as reward. Her initial started titles were all trained on this reward/release or uncap the bottle. Interestingly enough, she didn't start working for food reward until we had a CTJ over her disobeying a stop command because she was prey triggered on sheep. Suddenly reward through me became valuable. Age-wise, she is at the age where herding dogs partner up and generally become more sensitive to the handler or more biddable. I think that's part of it and it was an age where a CTJ had impact whereas at a younger age maybe knocking her unconscious with a 2 x 4 would've had impact. All of Khira's trial work has been done with marker training. Her last trial weekend in advanced was a triple Q weekend with very consistent work. One thing people either forget or just don't get is over time the clicker fades. Khira is the dog I still dog break stock with. I don't get dressed with a clicker or food treats with her. She can now work in instinct land independently the day before the trial and be in the ribbons on trial day performing command robotics. She knows the difference in the work. Twice I've used my marker in a trial where she was hesitant. In training she would have released. This would be disaster in a trial. I gambled that she knew the difference. She did. She took it as "yes, you are right," and continued the trial job. 

When I explain this in clinics I basically put it that a dog can be really high drive to work FOR HIMSELF. I use marker to enhance his training working for me. I am very careful to leave intact the dog's innate ability to read livestock and things like balance, sense of group, and the dog ultimately being in control of the stock. Done wrong and you could get an obedience placement dog which I hate. And I did establish in a session that Thunder would work for his tug on stock as driven as he is. 

I did some aspects of clicker training with my first dog years ago. Several years after his death I watched it being used for Schutzhund by RWDC and Steve Pettit. What intrigued me was the protection phase and how the dogs worked in drive and the control in drive that it gave the handler. I also had several conversations with Steve's brother Brian in terms of how he worked his field trial dog with marker training in a sport where E-collar was the rule. We really didn't know on a theoretical level if there was something high value enough that a herding dog would work for it as opposed to self reward on stock. Since I had some success with it, I decided to start over and retrain a dog and see where it led me. That dog was Khaldi. I spent three seasons refining this and LEARNED TONS about how a dog processes information and certain assumptions made amongst herders which she certainly disproved. I've also used it with several dogs [including working line BCs] within a clinic setting.

A lot of BC herders are fine with using negative and positive punishment in herding but somehow using marker based training and external rewards is proof that the dog is of minimal talent, instinct or drive. Its like saying that if your protection dogs will work for reward through the handler he is a crap or not serious. He should only see reward as a fight with the decoy instead of a tug game with his handler. 

Terrasita


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> Does anyone use food or toys when herding? I never herded with a dog in my life..but I can tell you if a dog wanted a toy or food during herding, if herding was a serious interest of mine, I would get a different dog..
> 
> That seems to me like rewarding a hunting dog with a toy ...dog is different drive/mode..
> 
> kinda like my dog with biting/fighting in bitework I am sure... food and toys are invisible when in the presence of a decoy/agitator..


Think about being in control of the drive on/off switch. Think in terms of dogs being bred to have high instinct and high biddability to the handler while he is in that drive/instinct state. Some dogs have it greater than others. One of the reasons Balabanov's the game was interesting to me is because from puppyhood the handler is in the dog's head while he is in drive. I trained my herding dogs with the initial work being instinct [walkabouts] where the dog is doing livestock control balance work without input from the handler. I believe I effectively taught them to ignore me with this. They worked on their own and I instilled in them, always maintain control and I as the handler really wasn't in the picture. Then comes phase two---obedience control. Some of the BC handlers talk about how difficult it is to get the dog to work for the handler and its pure self reward and the dog working for himself initially. Having worked with basically the dog reacting to the stock only and ingrained that, now the herding handler fights to become a part of the picture and have the dog work for the handler instead of self rewarding with the stock. How about we get into the dog's head from the get go. In the past, I either retrained to incorporate this or only used it in one training situation. Now with the puppies, I'm starting from the beginning with it. Two weeks ago when I had Rhemy around stock, he would sit and howl when I took him away-14 weeks old. If I picked him up was squirming to get down. I taught him his name by calling him away from the stock pen. Praise was reward enough. Today with the obedience [heel position], I've introduced food. There will be a lot that I will do off and around stock and with distractions before I put them on stock for training. We'll see how it works.

Terrasita


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Bob Scott said:


> My first cadaver dog absolutely freaked out the first time we saw a full body cadaver. She could work HR all day with no problems.
> I'm not knowledgable enough to say why.


 
We were working a track on a missing person. She found him, dead, though he had not been down long (maybe 6 hours) and it was cold out. Greta tried to play, thinking he should get up and tug with her.#-o

An actual body in full decomp may be another story, hopefully.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Well, as Bob knows, I've used food rewards for VERY high drive herding dogs and they are not dogs that would be described as biddable. Reward through the handler vs. reward through the stock have greatly increased their reliability. Sara's response is typical old school training philosophy for a breed of dog for which pressure release training was designed for. Old school training was based on withholding the stock until the dog does the desired behavior. I think there is a lot of conflict/stress/confusion with old school training. As Sara points out, there are traits that are selected for in certain eye breeds to the point they are instinctive [like releasing pressure or not going into pressure] that are stock useful in some situations. Other breeds don't have those traits as instinct so it is very difficult/or impossible to use pressure release training with them. They fight it.
> 
> A lot of BC herders are fine with using negative and positive punishment in herding but somehow using marker based training and external rewards is proof that the dog is of minimal talent, instinct or drive. Its like saying that if your protection dogs will work for reward through the handler he is a crap or not serious. He should only see reward as a fight with the decoy instead of a tug game with his handler.
> 
> Terrasita


I actually dont withold stock from my dog. I have become to understand his natural ability and work with that. I believe that collies (BC and kelpies) can be bred with all the neccesarry traits by the breeder that understands what they are and how they are inherited and how to breed for them.

My big casting BC casts square, wide and comes in deep fro the lift. He has always done that, no training required. He comes from a long line of big casting dogs. My kelpie casts straight naturally. I have taught her patiently to cast wide and she does when I am there, but under pressure she always reverts to the straight cast.

I really dont know about other herding breeds but my belief is that a really good collie should have many of the required instincts bred into them. I have witnessed a handful of these dogs and they are truly awesome, both in rough terrain and on the trial ground, but they are not that common.

I will stand by my belief that a really good dog of outstanding natural ability can be bred for. The more I work and witness different dogs the more I understand the traits and the more I belive you shoudnt need to train with artificial reward. I have watched a few really good sheep men work their dogs with natural ability and it is quiet and calm and beautiful, not a reward or marker in sight. If that is old school, bring it on.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Some of the BC handlers talk about how difficult it is to get the dog to work for the handler and its pure self reward and the dog working for himself initially. Having worked with basically the dog reacting to the stock only and ingrained that, now the herding handler fights to become a part of the picture and have the dog work for the handler instead of self rewarding with the stock. How about we get into the dog's head from the get go.
> Terrasita


Not too worried about that aspect. Our dogs often have to work well away from us. One of my neighbours asked me over to see his young dog and we stood on top of one of his granite outcrops and he sent his dog to fetch in some sheep in a distant corner of a very big paddock (500 acres). He cast the dog out and we stood and watched and waited. The dog kept casting out till she found the sheep in some distant bush ( we had binoculars) and she then proceeded to bring them to us. She had great width, driving ability and also the ability to keep the stock which numbered some 200 range sheep together without any instruction. She knew where we were on the outcrop and that is where she bought them, it was natural for her to do this. I dont think the dog was self rewarding on sheep, I think she was purely working by instinct and her instincts were very good. 

She came from a very good breeder and it showed, she had a lot of the right traits that were very apparent as a pup and my neighbours works with them. My neighbour just keeps an eye on her and gives her some direction, but isnt overly attached to micro managing the situation.

I think it is just a very different set of situations perhaps. I am happy for my dog to use all his natural herding ability to do the job. The less I have to interfere the better I like it. From one end of my property to the other is about 4 km long and really I would like my dog to do most of the work, while I wait at the gates LOL. He knows what he has to do when I cast him out although he lacks a few of the desirable inherited abilities of my neighbours dog he is still very handy.

I think the satisfaction comes from a job well done, I tell my dog he did well and I can see his eyes light up. He likes to do a good job, not really fussed if he does it for him or for me as long as the sheep arrive at the gate.

When he runs agility I use markers and rewards and he is well tuned into me. It is somehow different.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Sara Waters said:


> I actually dont withold stock from my dog. I have become to understand his natural ability and work with that. I believe that collies (BC and kelpies) can be bred with all the neccesarry traits by the breeder that understands what they are and how they are inherited and how to breed for them.
> 
> My big casting BC casts square, wide and comes in deep fro the lift. He has always done that, no training required. He comes from a long line of big casting dogs. My kelpie casts straight naturally. I have taught her patiently to cast wide and she does when I am there, but under pressure she always reverts to the straight cast.
> 
> ...


Oh, there is reward and there is probably some marking going on just not as obvious as a clicker. As for withholding the stock, I think you have to go back and look at your own posts regarding your line work and other work. You are refining the dog to work for you. It isn't all innate traits. Yes, natural casts was bred in through certain dogs and I can even tell you which ones. Just like sticky style was bred in. The trouble was getting that wide cast dog to come in for the close contact work. With some this is almost impossible. Some of the other breeds were bred for what you want in close contact work. There is always something that you refine. With those that cast wide, you work on the dog coming in. With those that come in, you work on them casting wide. Yes you can select for the traits you want. I just selected to corgi pups based on natural cast and heading. Neither one of them innately moves off pressure though and if they did they wouldn't be good representatives of their breed. The same is true for a GSD or Bouvier. They are strong in heading and blocking. Most of the BC folks that are against what you call artificial reward, like you, have never worked with it. There are some who protest with religious like zeal which is beyond me but to each's own. The day the other breeds get appropriate stock to work out in the pasture and get out of round pens and arenas, you will see alot of dogs that can read the pressure to get to the head and deep for the lift. My GSDs and corgis have done it out in nine acres both blind and in sight. 

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Sara Waters said:


> Not too worried about that aspect. Our dogs often have to work well away from us. One of my neighbours asked me over to see his young dog and we stood on top of one of his granite outcrops and he sent his dog to fetch in some sheep in a distant corner of a very big paddock (500 acres). He cast the dog out and we stood and watched and waited. The dog kept casting out till she found the sheep in some distant bush ( we had binoculars) and she then proceeded to bring them to us. She had great width, driving ability and also the ability to keep the stock which numbered some 200 range sheep together without any instruction. She knew where we were on the outcrop and that is where she bought them, it was natural for her to do this. I dont think the dog was self rewarding on sheep, I think she was purely working by instinct and her instincts were very good.
> 
> 
> She came from a very good breeder and it showed, she had a lot of the right traits that were very apparent as a pup and my neighbours works with them. My neighbour just keeps an eye on her and gives her some direction, but isnt overly attached to micro managing the situation.
> ...


Trained dogs are doing set jobs. The same traits you talk about in a larger geographic setting, I've seen in smaller. If I sent Rory blind or he was bringing in runaway sheep, his instinct was to deliver the stock to me. I didn't train his blind cast or his ability to read the pressure and cast himself out wider. That was pure drive and instinct. Real work is about a partnership and a job and Rory in particular was all about the job. One of the things I should distinguish is that what I do with real work vs. trial work are two different things. Trial work is about as artificial as it gets and that's where I use external rewards. Almost never in my chore work which makes sense to the dog and within instinct. Trial work tends to be against instinct. Put a correct dog in an arena where his instinct is to get outside the pressure but in the arena he can't. You'll see a totally different dog than when you change the geography and he can operate within his instinct to get the job done. The dog doesn't fight you as long as you are working with his instinct. Put him in a trial setting where its not about instinct and see what happens. This is the huge difference about chores and trials. You don't interfere with a dog on a farm cast. I can walk off at the farm and leave my trained dogs in the pen with the sheep. They are working while my back is turned. They are much more independent. In a trial you are or can be commanding every paw step.

We deal with smaller acreage in this country for the most part but dogs of the same instincts. They just don't have to travel the same distances. There is training with all of them. Once you are working the mature dog, its all about the job on the farm and the dog is reinforced by successful completion of the job.

T


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Oh, there is reward and there is probably some marking going on just not as obvious as a clicker. As for withholding the stock, I think you have to go back and look at your own posts regarding your line work and other work. You are refining the dog to work for you. It isn't all innate traits. Yes, natural casts was bred in through certain dogs and I can even tell you which ones. Just like sticky style was bred in. The trouble was getting that wide cast dog to come in for the close contact work. With some this is almost impossible. Some of the other breeds were bred for what you want in close contact work. There is always something that you refine. With those that cast wide, you work on the dog coming in. With those that come in, you work on them casting wide. Yes you can select for the traits you want. I just selected to corgi pups based on natural cast and heading. Neither one of them innately moves off pressure though and if they did they wouldn't be good representatives of their breed. The same is true for a GSD or Bouvier. They are strong in heading and blocking. Most of the BC folks that are against what you call artificial reward, like you, have never worked with it. There are some who protest with religious like zeal which is beyond me but to each's own. The day the other breeds get appropriate stock to work out in the pasture and get out of round pens and arenas, you will see alot of dogs that can read the pressure to get to the head and deep for the lift. My GSDs and corgis have done it out in nine acres both blind and in sight.
> 
> T


Aah but I realised the error of my ways, I didnt fully understand natural ability. I didnt withold stock, I just tried to put something there with the line work that should have been there naturally - width. My dog is a big caster but he likes to comes in too fast and too close. He lacks the natural width that my neighbours dog has naturally. When she comes in she has good width and also good force and uses it accordingly. My dog has good force but lacks the width. Having good width is very different to moving off pressure. My kelpie moves off pressure and gives the impression of having width, but it is not width she has it is weakness. She is a straight caster but quickly moves out wide with difficult stock, again a sign of her weakness. She is an awesome agility dog though.

I have somewhat reviewed how I trained my BC and I now observe him in different situations to see what really lies beneath in terms of natural ability and instinct and try and work with that. With his lack of width I have put in place the off command, but it would be nice if it was a natural instinct instead of a trained one, as I cant truly trust him out of sight, although I do sometimes work him out of sight, but he always rushes in after casting deep, if I am not there to stop him. Another trait he lacks is the natural stop at the beginning of the lift, another very desirable trait I have seen some dogs inherit to very good effect.

I dont protest using rewards and markers as all my agility dogs are trained that way, I just fail to see that it is really neccessary with a good sheepdog. I guess round here it is never used even by the best sheepdog handlers. Never having been exposed to the herding breeds you speak of at either at trials or on farms I can only speak for what I am used to.

A comment on trials - I know some of the best trialers have moved away from trials now as they say it is ruining the breeding of good dogs.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Sara Waters said:


> Aah but I realised the error of my ways, I didnt fully understand natural ability. I didnt withold stock, I just tried to put something there with the line work that should have been there naturally - width. My dog is a big caster but he likes to comes in too fast and too close. He lacks the natural width that my neighbours dog has naturally. When she comes in she has good width and also good force and uses it accordingly. My dog has good force but lacks the width. Having good width is very different to moving off pressure. My kelpie moves off pressure and gives the impression of having width, but it is not width she has it is weakness. She is a straight caster but quickly moves out wide with difficult stock, again a sign of her weakness. She is an awesome agility dog though.
> 
> I have somewhat reviewed how I trained my BC and I now observe him in different situations to see what really lies beneath in terms of natural ability and instinct and try and work with that. With his lack of width I have put in place the off command, but it would be nice if it was a natural instinct instead of a trained one, as I cant truly trust him out of sight, although I do sometimes work him out of sight, but he always rushes in after casting deep, if I am not there to stop him. Another trait he lacks is the natural stop at the beginning of the lift, another very desirable trait I have seen some dogs inherit to very good effect.
> 
> ...


The line and your input controls the access to stock. He is working to obtain access. You say how and when he uses his instinct. You control access. What he doesn't have instinctually, you are putting there mechanically. That's training. Sometimes it just a matter of showing them and then they will own it. Other things, like with my bouv come with maturity and the age of partnership. Needless to say as his handler you are developing certain things you need in him. We get station bred dogs here. They are developed for the work as well. As for trials, I refuse to water my dogs down for AKC trialing or light/fright sheep. I trial AKC minimally. Its a refined training exercise for me. I do love the AHBA program where you can have large flocks, ranch and now mixed stock trials. That is the program for the type of dog I like. I select against the AKC trial type dog. Took me awhile to figure that out.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

I have had dogs (Lab and Border Collie) that fell apart over too much praise. Additionally, physical rewards like balls and food were useless. The rewards: calm praise and being allowed to work seemed to keep them focused and wanting more of what they enjoyed...WORK!


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

It has been my experience, same as Sara and Howard, working dogs work mostly for the work itself. Simple pat on the head is enough. When they start drifting from being working dogs, rewards are much more crucial to any success.


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Greta seems more obsessed with the find than the reward. She still loves to play, but does not want to be interrupted while she is working. I have not seen any change in her desire to work. Other than her wanting to search before given the command yet. I just want to be sure I'm not creating a problem. Will see how training goes Monday with just leaving the find without her being able to get real close.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> It has been my experience, same as Sara and Howard, working dogs work mostly for the work itself. Simple pat on the head is enough. When they start drifting from being working dogs, rewards are much more crucial to any success.


Give an example.

Heres one a dog, trained with treats to open doors, the fridge, pick up keys off the floor for a wounded veteran....Is that a working dog?

How about the bomb dog, that keeps your ass safe from some terrorist flying a 747 into your hometown...he was trained with a rolled up towel as a reward. Not a real working dog.

How about the dog trained with a tennis ball to pin point cancer on paitents...his work...bullshit.


Your so full of shit. The more you talk, the less you know. 

I have yet to see your dogs preform one task....just one with any level of measurable success...

So you keep patting those cupcakes on the head...and maybe they will be able to do some work that requires a bit of charcter.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> The line and your input controls the access to stock. He is working to obtain access. You say how and when he uses his instinct. You control access. What he doesn't have instinctually, you are putting there mechanically. That's training. Sometimes it just a matter of showing them and then they will own it. Other things, like with my bouv come with maturity and the age of partnership. Needless to say as his handler you are developing certain things you need in him. We get station bred dogs here. They are developed for the work as well. As for trials, I refuse to water my dogs down for AKC trialing or light/fright sheep. I trial AKC minimally. Its a refined training exercise for me. I do love the AHBA program where you can have large flocks, ranch and now mixed stock trials. That is the program for the type of dog I like. I select against the AKC trial type dog. Took me awhile to figure that out.


 
I think what I was trying to say that I used the line because he lacked that particular instinct although at the time I didnt realise that. I am sure that if he had that particular trait he would do it instinctually, reducing the need for training a particular action. Where he has the instinct I do acknowledge good positioning. 

Like Howard mentions if I praise too much while he is working he sometimes loses the thread possibly because I use praise so much in agility training. I find it best just to let him work with a minimum of input, which is where a dog with the raft of inherited instincts is much easier. That is when he gives his best work. Praise at the end of a job well done. I concentrate on my positioning and try and anticipate what he going to do and if it is not something I want I stop it before it happens so to speak, although he doesnt realise that.

I have to admit I have never been to an ANKC herding trial. Ony the working dog trials which consist of 3 sheep, utility and yard trials and are usually run on someones farm in a large paddock or commercial yards. It has become a sport for many and dogs are being bred to win trials and lack a certain number of iherited insticts required for real work. I think that the experienced stock men claim that in Australia that even the working dog trials are not a true test of the range of abilities a good working dog needs. I think some of the USA and UK trials are tougher and have the double lift and larger numbers of sheep and are a much better test of a working dog.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

James Downey said:


> Give an example.
> 
> Heres one a dog, trained with treats to open doors, the fridge, pick up keys off the floor for a wounded veteran....Is that a working dog?
> 
> ...


James, I am talking about sheepdogs with inherited characteristics. A dog with an inherited trait such as a big square cast and deep lift shows that trait very early on. Same with any of the inherited characteristics such as force, cover, eye etc. It may need a bit of fine tuning and to be put to use so the dog has purpose when working sheep. Inherited traits are often what it will default to under pressure and the good dogs I know dont care less about rolled up towels or balls when they are working.

It is not the same as training a dog to detect a bomb, or pick up keys, niether of which is an inherited trait. There will no doubt be other inherited traits that make a dog suitable for these tasks such as temperament, calmness under pressure, intelligence etc, quick bounceback to unexpected conditions, willngness to work etc none of which would be worth training for I expect.
A good potential working dog will have those important characteristics inherited.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

julie allen said:


> Greta seems more obsessed with the find than the reward. She still loves to play, but does not want to be interrupted while she is working. I have not seen any change in her desire to work. Other than her wanting to search before given the command yet. I just want to be sure I'm not creating a problem. Will see how training goes Monday with just leaving the find without her being able to get real close.


Julie, I would go with what your dog is telling you. If she is loving work and doesnt want to be interrupted I would go with that. Maybe you need to work on her impulse to start before the command and leaving the find if that is what is required.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

What do you think James. Two others said the same thing and I just agreed with them. I just gotta laugh when I am the one full of it. Maybe you are clueless but, like Sara said, some dogs are bred to do specific things. Believe it or not many dogs work for the work itself....and a little praise.


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Let me restate my previous comment, we only leave the find after she alerts and I reward (or attempt to lol). She has to find it, stay with it, and continue the bark/sit until she is released.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

julie allen said:


> Let me restate my previous comment, we only leave the find after she alerts and I reward (or attempt to lol). She has to find it, stay with it, and continue the bark/sit until she is released.


If she isnt interested in the reward maybe the you just need to say well done and verbally reinforce your pleasure at a job well done and leave it at that. 

That is all one of my agility dogs needed after a good run, she wasnt the slightest bit interested in a food or toy reward. She just enjoyed the process and my obvious pleasure when she finished and she was my special dog. My other dogs like their toy or food reward, just go with what suits the dog.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> What do you think James. Two others said the same thing and I just agreed with them. I just gotta laugh when I am the one full of it. Maybe you are clueless but, like Sara said, some dogs are bred to do specific things. Believe it or not many dogs work for the work itself....and a little praise.


 
Example?


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

James Downey said:


> Example?


Come work my sheepdogs, you will be sick of it before they are. LOL


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Sara Waters said:


> I think what I was trying to say that I used the line because he lacked that particular instinct although at the time I didnt realise that. I am sure that if he had that particular trait he would do it instinctually, reducing the need for training a particular action. Where he has the instinct I do acknowledge good positioning.
> 
> Like Howard mentions if I praise too much while he is working he sometimes loses the thread possibly because I use praise so much in agility training. I find it best just to let him work with a minimum of input, which is where a dog with the raft of inherited instincts is much easier. That is when he gives his best work. Praise at the end of a job well done. I concentrate on my positioning and try and anticipate what he going to do and if it is not something I want I stop it before it happens so to speak, although he doesnt realise that.
> 
> I have to admit I have never been to an ANKC herding trial. Ony the working dog trials which consist of 3 sheep, utility and yard trials and are usually run on someones farm in a large paddock or commercial yards. It has become a sport for many and dogs are being bred to win trials and lack a certain number of iherited insticts required for real work. I think that the experienced stock men claim that in Australia that even the working dog trials are not a true test of the range of abilities a good working dog needs. I think some of the USA and UK trials are tougher and have the double lift and larger numbers of sheep and are a much better test of a working dog.


Sara, all marker work is is very fine tuned praise. Praise with a stock dog does require timing. You don't want to pull the dog off his stock or interrupt his line of communication. You don't have to be a chatterbox. You praise at the end. I praise along the chain of behaviors and later at the end. But really, my trained dog knows by the tone of my "that'll do," that the work is good and we are on to the next job or back to the house or car. The reinforcements are more about training. Khaldi worked just as much for my silly praise and pats as she did food. They had just about the same value. When I closed the pen gate, she was always boogieing to the next gate for the next job. My dogs will work until they drop. But indication from me of what RIGHT is with something absolute in TRAINING makes learning faster and the training devoid of stress and any confusion. 

I would never assume a trial dog has the traits I want in a farm dog. It can be apples and oranges. what a dog does with 5 head of light sheep in an arena trial tells me nothing of his heart and drive that will carry him through in bad weather, larger pastures or with stock gunning to bash his brains in. But that said, my chore dog needs to work clean and precise. Everyone has their method of communicating with their dog. I like the clarity of a conditioned reinforcer during the training phase no matter what I'm training.

Terrasita


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

I guess I am not to attached to having to train things into a stock dog that I know can be an inherited trait and I know not all stockdogs have all the traits so you make do with what you have and train accordingly, which is what I try and do. I do know that no amount of reinforcement is going to persuade my kelpie to walk in on my difficult ewes and lambs and believe me I have tried. She just doesnt have it in her, never did even as a pup which her first owner a well known sheepdog breeder recognised and told me so.

A good handler can definitely overcome some of what is lacking if it is not too dire and have a very handy dog. 

I guess I have seen a few very good dogs, known them from pups and have been truly amazed at what is possible. One little kelpie I know was 5-6 months old and her first go on stock left us all wishing she was ours. She was calm, had width, break away break, heart, cover, the right type of eye and more. She belongs to a local shearer and her first litter was in demand to say the least. I guess most farmers dont really have time to spend too much time on training and will spend quite a bit of money on a potentially good dog.

My BC shows zero interest in food or toys when he is working sheep. I most certainly do praise him, but generally more when I teach him skills that he lacks as a trait. The fact that I am not saying anything or use a soft tone of voice generally means to him that I am pleased. He is not a dog that is particularly turned on by praise or reward, he is very work oriented though and that seems to be his joy along with a dip in the trough at the end and a companionable walk home with me telling him he is a good boy although he would really rather I cut the crap and go back to the paddocks and work more. LOL


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Sara Waters said:


> Come work my sheepdogs, you will be sick of it before they are. LOL


 

Are your sheep dogs directable?


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Sara Waters said:


> Not too worried about that aspect. Our dogs often have to work well away from us. One of my neighbours asked me over to see his young dog and we stood on top of one of his granite outcrops and he sent his dog to fetch in some sheep in a distant corner of a very big paddock (500 acres). He cast the dog out and we stood and watched and waited. The dog kept casting out till she found the sheep in some distant bush ( we had binoculars) and she then proceeded to bring them to us. She had great width, driving ability and also the ability to keep the stock which numbered some 200 range sheep together without any instruction. She knew where we were on the outcrop and that is where she bought them, it was natural for her to do this. I dont think the dog was self rewarding on sheep, I think she was purely working by instinct and her instincts were very good.
> 
> She came from a very good breeder and it showed, she had a lot of the right traits that were very apparent as a pup and my neighbours works with them. My neighbour just keeps an eye on her and gives her some direction, but isnt overly attached to micro managing the situation.
> 
> ...


Sara,

Thank you for your posts - it makes for very interesting reading.

Especially "I am happy for my dog to use all his natural herding ability to do the job. The less I have to interfere the better"

Gill


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

James Downey said:


> Are your sheep dogs directable?


 
To a certain extent yes, but I like a dog where you dont have to interfere too much. I will stand at a gate and send my BC out and the rest is up to him as he is often out of sight in some gully. That is where good inherited instincts are very helpful as you know the dog is keeping off the sheep, or using only force when it needs to - less stress for the sheep with a good dog with natural ability that understands his sheep. My BC is not bad but there are some inherited abilities that he lacks that I would like in my next dog.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Sara,
> 
> Thank you for your posts - it makes for very interesting reading.
> 
> ...


Thanks, it has become my passion to understand what makes a really good dog from the genetic point of view as well as a training one. I have had several good teachers including a breeder/stockman whose passion is to produce dogs of highest natural ability who haS pointed out a lot of things to me that when I got my first sheepdog I didnt really understand and I am still only scratching the surface, (for some time to come I suspect LOL).


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Sara Waters said:


> Thanks, it has become my passion to understand what makes a really good dog from the genetic point of view as well as a training one. I have had several good teachers including a breeder/stockman whose passion is to produce dogs of highest natural ability who haS pointed out a lot of things to me that when I got my first sheepdog I didnt really understand and I am still only scratching the surface, (for some time to come I suspect LOL).


genetics can really throw a monkey wrench into some training programs..
sometimes the perceived training, should really take a back seat to genetics.....IMHO


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Sara Waters said:


> I guess I am not to attached to having to train things into a stock dog that I know can be an inherited trait and I know not all stockdogs have all the traits so you make do with what you have and train accordingly, which is what I try and do. I do know that no amount of reinforcement is going to persuade my kelpie to walk in on my difficult ewes and lambs and believe me I have tried. She just doesnt have it in her, never did even as a pup which her first owner a well known sheepdog breeder recognised and told me so.
> 
> A good handler can definitely overcome some of what is lacking if it is not too dire and have a very handy dog.
> 
> ...


Sara:

There are some basic commands in herding:

1. Come-bye or Go-bye
2. Away
3. Stop
4. Walk up
5. That'll do or Recall


Do you use any of those commands or other commands when working your dogs?

Also, can you list the inherited traits your dog has that you work with and list any non-inherited traits that he needs to do your chore work?

Terrasita


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f33/my-young-bc-training-20168/


Sara,


Above is a thread you started in May regarding "training" your BC in terms of developing his cast and drive work. A lot of training went into my dogs before I was sending them on blind outruns [sheep out of sight of the handler and the dog] or leaving them in the pens with livestock while I went off to do something else. I didn't train the blind outrun or the the long distance outrun with Rory. That was instinct but something he did after I developed him in other aspects. Same thing with his tending. On his own, he would gather the lambs and keep them in a certain place--away from the perimeter fence and gate. There are certain inheritable traits that I like in a dog but that doesn't mean I don't train them. You didn't walk out back nd shoot your BC or the kelpie because they didn't have certain inheritable traits--you train them and work them in whatever capacity they are capable of and the manage your farm. As for training confidence in a weak dog, you're right. That's not a dog that I would have as my personal dog. There are some who think you can train confidence and you can build confidence to a certain extent but I don't think its reliable. In some situations the dog and/or the handler can get hurt. Most stock people I know rely on inheritable traits and all of them train the dog; even if its just task training--they train the dog.

Terrasita


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Sara:
> 
> There are some basic commands in herding:
> 
> ...


Yes when my dog went come bye I named it Round. When my dog went away flank I named it Back ( some use Over). I didnt train the dog to flank, I just put a command on it. Didnt take long.

I use lie down for stop and wait for pause and steady if the dog is rushing a walk in. I have a walk up for bringing to me and a walk forward for driving. Here for recall, all done for finish. Get off if he is crowding sheep and get behind to go to the tail. Out for the cast and I never spent much time on that. It is his best inherited trait LOL.

It would take a while to go through everything and I am fencing at the moment so will list a few. His cast has always been good, square and wide with a deep lift. He doesnt have a natural stop on the point of balance which is an inherited trait and he tends to come straight in. His hold together is not always fantastic when working ewes and lambs and will be inclined to leave the cranky ones behind LOL., but is pretty good on a normal mob.

He is a busy dog and in my opinion puts in to much footwork and is excitable and crowds on the draw and lacks width on the tail - all inherited traits. He can drive and head and has good natural balance. He doesnt like forcing ewes and lambs on the tail and often slides up towards the head. Although fortunately he is not an obsessive heading dog.

There are many things I could go on with. He is a good chore dog but things could be better if he had inherited certain traits and I didnt need to manage his lack thereof at times.

I agree with you that it is essential a command system is put in place and training is essential. My dog would absolutely be a better dog with a more knowledgable handler. It is also rare to get a dog with a combination of all the right traits. 

However the closer you can get to the right combo of traits the easier it is going to be. The more reliable the dog is going to be under pressure or working at distance and the less you will need to rely on commands. I also believe that once the training is in place a dog with good inherited traits and the right experience shouldnt need constant management.

I cant remember know but I think our main point of divergence was the use of food to train sheepdogs. I believe that a good dog with good inherited traits and the desire to work doesnt need food rewards to train it. Just my opinion.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Who said the dog "needed" food rewards to train it? I could train them without as I've done several. The dogs are gonna work regardless and trust me, they can be about as OCD about it as your BC.

T


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Who said the dog "needed" food rewards to train it? I could train them without as I've done several. The dogs are gonna work regardless and trust me, they can be about as OCD about it as your BC.
> 
> T


Any well bred herding dog bred for the traits it has to work stock is going to love to work. Not just Border collies. If I had the right type of stock I would love to work cattle dogs for what they were were originallly bred for. I saw them working in station country years ago and they are the ultimate dog in my eyes for those situations. I am not a BC freak, I just like them for my situation, they are a good all round dog.

I can well believe a well bred working corgi is a super little stock dog. I quite like them, I just prefer collies for my situation, besides over here corgis are all ANKC bred. I stick to the breeds where there are serious working breeders - mainly collie type dogs as they are the mainstay of the livestock industry in this country.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Sara Waters said:


> Any well bred herding dog bred for the traits it has to work stock is going to love to work. Not just Border collies. If I had the right type of stock I would love to work cattle dogs for what they were were originallly bred for. I saw them working in station country years ago and they are the ultimate dog in my eyes for those situations. I am not a BC freak, I just like them for my situation, they are a good all round dog.
> 
> I can well believe a well bred working corgi is a super little stock dog. I quite like them, I just prefer collies for my situation, besides over here corgis are all ANKC bred. I stick to the breeds where there are serious working breeders - mainly collie type dogs as they are the mainstay of the livestock industry in this country.


All my well bred corgis and most of my dogs have been out of show lines. I don't take it home unless it has demonstrated the character and stock traits I'm looking for. Its all about selection. Manfred Heyne said pick the GSD that has the ultimate attraction to livestock. Well, that's Rhemy. I was gonna wait until spring to start working him when I found a set of baby goats and he was a little bigger. But watching him at the farm yesterday. At 16 weeks, its time to get into his little brain NOW. I've never liked the term "extreme" but this is it. It will be interesting to see how he matures and from the breeding standpoint how he reproduces.

T


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> All my well bred corgis and most of my dogs have been out of show lines. I don't take it home unless it has demonstrated the character and stock traits I'm looking for. Its all about selection. Manfred Heyne said pick the GSD that has the ultimate attraction to livestock. Well, that's Rhemy. I was gonna wait until spring to start working him when I found a set of baby goats and he was a little bigger. But watching him at the farm yesterday. At 16 weeks, its time to get into his little brain NOW. I've never liked the term "extreme" but this is it. It will be interesting to see how he matures and from the breeding standpoint how he reproduces.
> 
> T


Well I certainly wouldnt be taking home an Australian showline BC as they are as extreme as they come for being showbred. They all look the same! Huge coats, shorter legs. None has ever done any good in working dog trials ever. Not saying they arent nice dogs - I have one myself. Nice agility and obedience dogs for sure some of them. 

Dont know about corgis though. GSDS I have seen in the showring have weird extreme hind ends and it is painful to watch them struggling in agility, in fact you see very few these days, unlike the early days of agility. Nothing like the GSDS I grew up with as a kid.

However it is highly possible it is different where you are. I have an overseas friend who breeds showline BCs from UK stock and they are very different from the Aussie showlines. Quite a lot of working lines in them.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Sara Waters said:


> Well I certainly wouldnt be taking home an Australian showline BC as they are as extreme as they come for being showbred. They all look the same! Huge coats, shorter legs. None has ever done any good in working dog trials ever. Not saying they arent nice dogs - I have one myself. Nice agility and obedience dogs for sure some of them.
> 
> Dont know about corgis though. GSDS I have seen in the showring have weird extreme hind ends and it is painful to watch them struggling in agility, in fact you see very few these days, unlike the early days of agility. Nothing like the GSDS I grew up with as a kid.
> 
> However it is highly possible it is different where you are. I have an overseas friend who breeds showline BCs from UK stock and they are very different from the Aussie showlines. Quite a lot of working lines in them.


 
Yeah, I think you are right concerning the New Zealand/Aust BCs. Most I've seen are a little short in the stock sense department. With the American line GSDs, the over angulated rear isn't that dominant. There are normal ones in the litter. In the corgi ring there are some that are into how long and low can you go and basset bone and tons of body. That's not a working frame. You have to select around that.

T


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Yeah, I think you are right concerning the New Zealand/Aust BCs. Most I've seen are a little short in the stock sense department. With the American line GSDs, the over angulated rear isn't that dominant. There are normal ones in the litter. In the corgi ring there are some that are into how long and low can you go and basset bone and tons of body. That's not a working frame. You have to select around that.
> 
> T


 
I am only taking a stab here not having had much to do with corgis, but the show ones I have seen seem to be very long and very low. Spunky little dogs but they would definitely bottom out in the terrain I live in. I always wondered how they could work stock but that is obviously the wrong frame for a working corgi. You very rarely see them in agility. The show world here I think is quite extreme for some breeds, people are obsessed with getting their championship points above all else. 

A friend of mine imported 2 working bred labs from Ireland and they are totaly different and excell in retrieving and agility way ahead of any of the showbred labs. They are lighter, faster and very athletic. Their pups are also amazing and changed the way I viewed labs.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Its the same here. Field trial labs and goldens are completely different in structure and drive for that matter.

T


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I can't imagine using only a praise system for a detection dog at the final correct response. The dog needing to see the source here seems to be the training issue. Would the ball wall or other primary reward also help here?

I spent a lot of time finding a puppy with herding background and genetic obedience that loves to hunt for the sake of the hunt and is hardwired to work in partnership with a human, but I think the toy closes out the sequence and satisfies a drive. The passive trained response is not a natural behavior.

What does a hunting dog normally do if they can't bite and hold their quarry or have a tremendous 'release" with jumping and barking? The herding dog is still using hardwired behaviors at the direction of a human. The hunt of the detection dog is not the thing that is rewarded, but the appropriate indication.

A detection dog may do the same thing over and over and over again in a session and be expected to work areas where nothing is there. Precision and reliability are probably a lot more important than in a hunting dog. 

If a hunting dog misses once in awhile, it does not have the same consequences as if a SAR dog misses (where someone could die)


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> I can't imagine using only a praise system for a detection dog at the final correct response. The dog needing to see the source here seems to be the training issue. Would the ball wall or other primary reward also help here?
> 
> I spent a lot of time finding a puppy with herding background and genetic obedience that loves to hunt for the sake of the hunt and is hardwired to work in partnership with a human, but I think the toy closes out the sequence and satisfies a drive. The passive trained response is not a natural behavior.
> 
> ...


Nancy,

Can you elaborate. I'm not sure what you mean as far as only using praise or the "passive trained response is not a natural behavior."


T


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I guess the original post was about a detection (cadaver) dog ignoring the toy because she wanted confirmation on the find. ... it then digressed to praise as the best reward for many dogs.

I felt that the hunting behaviors have to be hardwired - if the dog does not enjoy hunting and working with the handler as a partner (like a herding dog) all the toy drive in the world is not going to make a good cadaver dog 

But the final behavior (typically passive sit and stare or some variation) is typically an unnatural trained indication which has no intrinsic value for the dog.

I felt the herding dogs are hardwired and fulfilling an intrinsic drive just as hunting dogs hunt because they are driven.....but even the retriever gets to carry back the bird. What does the hog dog get or the coonhound. Just a pat on the head?


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> I guess the original post was about a detection (cadaver) dog ignoring the toy because she wanted confirmation on the find. ... it then digressed to praise as the best reward for many dogs.
> 
> I felt that the hunting behaviors have to be hardwired - if the dog does not enjoy hunting and working with the handler as a partner (like a herding dog) all the toy drive in the world is not going to make a good cadaver dog
> 
> ...


I think on the OP, the dog is specific and he's trained to do just what he did. The handler thought the job was done--the dog didn't. My friend is doing nosework. Initially, I had a lot of problem with the idea of always pairing food/reward with the source because in the trial, its source only. I was assured that the dog would hunt/search the same and alert the same. Her bouv is finding the source but continuing to search afterwards. I suspect he is continuing to look for the food which in training he also got to eat upon finding the food with the odor. He is doing what he was trained to do and I think it has higher value to him. The first way he was trained involved him finding the odor/food--eat the food and handler also rewards. With the new system--find odor alone--handler rewards. With system #1, he either thinks his job is to find food also or self reward on the food he finds has more value than food dispensed from the handler. I'm going to video it next week. 

The herding dogs are very job completion driven--especially corgis. If you set it up as a job, they will correct themselves and modify their behavior to complete the job. With Rory, if I started a job, good luck pulling him off of it until he finished it. Then he would look up at me for confirmation and I'd give him the thumbs up. Completing the job was the reinforcement. But this is a stage of the mature dog that has worked with you in partnership. External reward in the training phase is communication that the dog is right in the behavior performed. It can be part of teaching the job. The partner dog won't need or require it for life. 

When getting into the marker work with the herding dogs and training against instinct, I struggled with the same question. The protection dogs get a bite. What could be an external reward for an overdrive herding dog that trumped stock engagement? Rory taught me that my communication that he was right was the reinforcement. You saw it in his body language and then the increased repetition of the marked behavior. He was never going to come back to me for a cookie or toy off livestock. The marker became the primary reinforcer and he continued in his work--without release behavior or the marker ended the behavior. Khaldi was classic. Marker ended the behavior. Rewards in equal value: pets/praise from me; food; or release behavior with the stock. Khira has been a lesson on this in terms of how the relationship with the handler influences the equation. Until recently, she never would take food as a reward. If I marked the behavior, she would release. Its really a release from the command state or uncapping. No harm to the stock. Basically circle around or even blast through and then she would return to her trained work. Its made her a highly competitive trial dog. I still had issues with her kicking into prey mode until I took her by the collar one day twice marching her down field and putting her in the stop position that she said screw me about. After that, I had a different dog, even in some things around the house and whether external rewards had value. She's also come into full maturity. 

With all of these dogs, there is sport work and then there is real work and jobs. Most of the marker work was done to get control in the sport work. Totally unnecessary in the real world where we are performing jobs and doing work that makes sense and is within instinct. 

My new puppy Rhemy is probably a genetic clone of Rory. But I didn't get Rory until he was 9 months old and didn't get into herding until he was 2 1/2 so I don't have a puppy frame of reference. I'm starting his marker training off stock but I can't even see it operating any different than it did with Rory. The conditioned marker has been a communication tool that has allowed me to be in their heads in drive in a way that no other method has. The more biddable ones really responded to it. The more independent types [Khaldi and Khira] still needed the pack leadership element of because I said so--at least as occasional reminders. 

I think its a combination of the drive for the work and performance/completion of the job and relationship to the handler that will impact the NEED for reward in terms of how the dog works.

T


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> I felt the herding dogs are hardwired and fulfilling an intrinsic drive just as hunting dogs hunt because they are driven.....but even the retriever gets to carry back the bird. What does the hog dog get or the coonhound. Just a pat on the head?


Many times he doesn't get that. Every hunt isn't successful but they still give it everything. I suppose they could just say screw it and not hunt the next time.....but they never will. Just like people , say, looking for a one nighter. They just keep pushing forward win or lose. Compulsive gamblers gamble....win or lose. A periodic reward is stronger than one that is expected.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

No that is the drive to hunt. They will hunt harder the next time. A lot of negative searching is a reality and not doing it in training is another cause for failure. You have to test the dog in large unknown negative areas and it must work for hours. I never did think they did the hunt for the ball at the end.

In a real search for human remains, there is no reward at the end unless it is 100% clear that what you found is human, and when the body is underwater or underground or some obscure bone you are not 100% sure.

You don't always reward at training. Jackpot effect and all that. But I am convinced that even the dog that loves the work, loves the reward and is motivated by it, and the interaction with that game of tug or ball at the end--that is why I like tug more than just throwing a ball. The mutual play.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

I think it also depends on the dog. My herding dog seems to be hardwired to working sheep regardless of the outcome, he would do it till he dropped.

However I also do agility which is not natural instinct. Most of my dogs work for several reasons - enjoying agility and also because they know a game of tug or a food reward is in the offing when they complete a run. 

I have one dog who wasnt like that. She appeared to do it becuase she loved doing it and working with me. At the end of a run her eyes literally sparkled when we exited together and I told her how good she was. She didnt seem at all motivated by food or toys as a reward at the end of a run and she is the greediest pig for her dinner I have ever owned. 

Completing a run of agility is not really rewarding for the dog as it doesnt have any real sense of purpose so you expect a tug or food reward to be a motivator at the end. Didnt seem to hold any value for this particular dog and yet she was the dog that out of all my dogs loved agility the most and loved running with me in particular. When I retired her she would scream in frustration when she heard me running my young dogs at a trial and was desperately waiting for her turn which never came. It was very sad really and I still miss running her.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> ... all marker work is is very fine tuned praise..... You don't have to be a chatterbox. Terrasita


Terrasita I like...*FINE TUNED!*
You can praise like you're having church or you can do so like you're in a public library.

K.I.S.S. keep it simple. 
I have seen dogs pop off the bite sleeve to see what the handler was all happy about, happy is with the dog's effort.

Like a good coach, knowing when to speak and when to remain quiet, the fine line method...well said!\\/


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Howard, is that the trainers version for K.I.S.S.? I thought there was more to it. :grin:


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Many times he doesn't get that. Every hunt isn't successful but they still give it everything. I suppose they could just say screw it and not hunt the next time.....but they never will. Just like people , say, looking for a one nighter. They just keep pushing forward win or lose. Compulsive gamblers gamble....win or lose. A periodic reward is stronger than one that is expected.


would you say it is a compulsive thing? the desire to hunt? I guess you would since you compared it to a compulsive gambler...


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> would you say it is a compulsive thing? the desire to hunt? I guess you would since you compared it to a compulsive gambler...


A couple of my dogs would spend all day at the rabbit warrens on my farm even if there is no action happening, they will stake it out and wait all day. I have spent all day fencing they have spent all day at the warrens in the same paddock and were releuctant to leave when I went home They are obsessed LOL. The other dogs get bored and lie around near me or my car, but not one of my cattle dogs and my working collie.

My collie is obssessed with herding. Everytime I go out the front gate he is there waiting hopefully that there might be some sheep action about to happen.


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

So training went well, all of her hides were completely hidden, either way high, buried deep, and a few inside lockers and a television set. I offered the reward, she left it, gave verbal praise, then said your done. All was good. Greta left the hides.
Next few, I made a HUGE deal out of the reward, and she played. So either way was ok, guess its nothing to be concerned with.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Julie, I find your lasy post really intrigueing. I wonder, is the reward really for the dog, or does the handler get a sense of completion through then reward?


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