# No more Schutzhund....



## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

.....it will be changed to IPO rules sometime in 2011. A few rule changes are coming.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

There's been no difference between VPG and IPO rules for some time now. It's all going to be called "IPO" now. I have been told there are some very insignificant rule changes coming, have you heard differently and if so what changes have you heard about?


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

The below is NOT official.

The FCI still has the old rules on their website.
____________________________________________________________________________________

A DQ for any reason, complete point loss in all phases

BH. Needs to have much more emphasis on good temperament within the public. 
 All handlers must take a written exam prior to showing for the FIRST BH
 For motion commands in BH. Between 10-15 steps, command to sit or down, 
 the handler STOPS then continues to move away from dog

A Second BH or Pre IP that may or may not be implemented in the organizations
Tracking 200 paces, no ageing 1 corner, 1 article with old style larger articles

Tracking. The judge CANNOT come with 10 meters of the dog. PERIOD. 
 No praise for IPO2 and IPO3
 3 commands to search then 0 points
 21 points for articles
The handler in IPO2 and IPO3 may not praise while dog is tracking, only at articles.​ A handler can lay tracks but not at the same level as showing
 On the last leg if the dog misses the article and tracks off you only lose the points for the last article

Obedience. IPO1 reports on leash
 Switch from 30 steps after an motion command to 15 steps.
 If dog does not show a sit or down or stand they still may earn 5 points for the build-up, Two commands 1.5 point loss, three commands 2.5 point loss.
Must Retrieve. 
Knock down of jump - 5 points loss
Besides the weight the only requirement for the dumbbells is that the bottom of the bar needs to be 4 cm from the ground. 
Recalls 30 step maximum.
Send Away Two commands 1.5 point loss, three commands 2.5 point loss.

Protection. 
Only 1 helper required
Box for escape must be 3 meters
Must give command to dog to stop the escape, not sure on the command as you can't use "Packen"
Full grip no longer needed on escape
Helper runs for long bites at all levels
The judge will tell the helper to step away, not the handler

Also universal statement on the use of prongs and electric at trials...The event starts when the scorebook is handed in and ends with the return of the scorebook after awards.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Where did you find this?


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

From what I understand this comes from someone taking notes at a recent trial with a SV Judge presenting the rule changes.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

????

As far as I understand, changes will only take place in 2011 and they will surely be published!

Praising the dog when tracking has always resulted in points loss - I lost 8 points for this in IPO 2 but the dog ended the track well!!

I think it would be good to have an "official" list.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Gillian Schuler said:


> ????
> 
> As far as I understand, changes will only take place in 2011 and they will surely be published!
> 
> ...


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

According to the USA website, http://www.germanshepherddog.com/members/index.htm

"The new rules for 2011 incorporate SchH/VPG and IPO into one calling it IPO. There are some subtle changes to the rules and the judging criteria."

It seems like there are always a bunch of wild claims as to what the changes are every time new rules come out. I'm just going to wait for my copies to put into my rule book. I keep wishing and hoping they put the attack on the handler back in, and it seems like I always hear they are going to do it.......oh well, a gal can dream can't she?


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Gillian Schuler said:


> ????
> 
> As far as I understand, changes will only take place in 2011 and they will surely be published!
> 
> ...


Then you got screwed. VDH/IPO rules currently allow for some praising along the track just not at corners or anywhere it can be contrused as help. It states no continuous encouragement not any encouragement. So unless you're constantly saying good or whatever a few spread out along the track isn't supposed to be pointed.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

If this "Must give command to dog to stop the escape, not sure on the command as you can't use "Packen", comes to be, I believe it will be one of the more difficult changes for my dog.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Edward Egan said:


> If this "Must give command to dog to stop the escape, not sure on the command as you can't use "Packen", comes to be, I believe it will be one of the more difficult changes for my dog.


Wonder if sig-em would be acceptable


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

October 10, 2010
I have had many inquires from the membership regarding the new 2011 IPO Rules.The new rules for 2011 incorporate SchH/VPG and IPO into one calling it IPO. There are some subtle changes to the rules and the judging criteria.
Thanks to our USA/SV Liaison Steff Dunion I have an English copy and am reviewing it. As soon as it receives final approval for accuracy in the translation from the SV I will post it on the USA Website and distribute it to our USA Judges for review. At that time I will coordinate with the USA Office to have the new rules printed including our USA approved variances and they will be made available for replacement to our USA members that have already purchased rulebooks and for sale as new books.
The new rules will be implemented 90 days after we release them to the membership.
Please wait for their release to ask questions about them.
Thank you for your continued support of USA.
_*Nathaniel Roque*
Director of Judges - United Schutzhund Clubs of America_


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Edward,if this means after the decoy flees and you have to wait for a signal from the judge to release your dog it will be a very big problem for a lot of teams out there. Similar like having the dog beside before being released for the long attack but he will not be next to you.A lot more need for control i guess.


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## Sue DiCero (Sep 2, 2006)

What Edward posted is what was talked about at the FCI this year as a reminder as to what was to be implemented in 2011. 

These rules have been discussed for the last 1-2 years. Requirement to do so prior to implementing.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Frankly the whole point of the escape bite is to demonstrate the dog can work independently from the handler, plus the dog must be able to engage the decoy by 20 steps or the exercize is terminated, so this is going to completely change the point of the exercize and the way it's judged. Logistically I don't see how this will work. So the dog is on the down, handler behind the blind, the helper is near mid field, upon signal from judge starts running, the judge gives the handler the signal, the handler commands the dog, so by this time the helper will be all the way on the side of the field, so what now? 

I guess Nathaniel has a different definition of the word "subtle" than I do, because all the changes as outlined by Edward sure as hell aren't "subtle" in my book.


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## Sue DiCero (Sep 2, 2006)

And after the knock down of the jump, must build up the jump again and re-do.

Heeling, 1 left turn in group rather than 2.

"Protection. 
Only 1 helper required
Box for escape must be 3 meters
Must give command to dog to stop the escape, not sure on the command as you can't use "Packen"
Full grip no longer needed on escape
Helper runs for long bites at all levels
The judge will tell the helper to step away, not the handler"

In big competition, will be two helpers.
In escape, you can say packen.
Looking for more intensity and drive for the escape bite and working the helper, still can be full points.


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## Sherry Spivey (Sep 7, 2009)

Knock down of the jump - does that mean the boards will be displaceable instead of solid? Like in agility? Just curious as we are building a new jump and would like to not have to redo it in a year.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Not a big fan, but do have some friends that are heavily into it, will be curious to see if things get better or worse and to see if anything new gets introduced into Have thought about it a few times, never have to commited to it for many of reason and who knows might end up in it someday depending on where we end up being, there is a few clubs I have been to that I actually do like as well as the people be open and friendly.

Whats to happen to Schutzhund USA or will it just changed up to IPO or will it get dissolved?


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Harry Keely said:


> Not a big fan, but do have some friends that are heavily into it, will be curious to see if things get better or worse and to see if anything new gets introduced into Have thought about it a few times, never have to commited to it for many of reason and who knows might end up in it someday depending on where we end up being, there is a few clubs I have been to that I actually do like as well as the people be open and friendly.
> 
> Whats to happen to Schutzhund USA or will it just changed up to IPO or will it get dissolved?


The rules of SchH/VPG and IPO are very, very simular. It's more about what part of the world or organization you are in as to which you currently use. Schutzhund USA will just adopt the FCI rules, possibly with some variences.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Edward Egan said:


> The rules of SchH/VPG and IPO are very, very simular. It's more about what part of the world you are in as to which you currently use. Schutzhund USA will just adopt the FCI rules, possibly with some variences.


Yea I get the whole parts of the world bit, but would be cool I think if they would put the handler attack into it like somebody mentioned.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> So the dog is on the down, handler behind the blind, the helper is near mid field, upon signal from judge starts running, the judge gives the handler the signal, the handler commands the dog, so by this time the helper will be all the way on the side of the field, so what now?


Susan,

The way I heard the new escape bite rules. The handler will NOT go to the blind but will remain standing next to the dog.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Edward Egan said:


> The rules of SchH/VPG and IPO are very, very simular. It's more about what part of the world or organization you are in as to which you currently use. Schutzhund USA will just adopt the FCI rules, possibly with some variences.


USA already offers IPO titles now. Right now you can go to a USA trial and both VPG and IPO titles are offered at the same trial. This is why if you look in your USA rulebook, you will see you have VPG rules, IPO rules, etc..


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Does anyone know can we say sit prior to.the judge telling the helper to step back?


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Susan,
> 
> The way I heard the new escape bite rules. The handler will NOT go to the blind but will remain standing next to the dog.


Please tell me this is not for Schutzhund III's Why do you supose thay want this not more show dog bull shit?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Please tell me this is not for Schutzhund III's Why do you supose thay want this not more show dog bull shit?



Any and all escape bites is the way I understood it :-(


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Any and all escape bites is the way I understood it :-(


Look like we need to take back what we have lost and start something old.
I hate the thought of another ****ing sport


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Please tell me this is not for Schutzhund III's Why do you supose thay want this not more show dog bull shit?


I don't see this being easier to train, especially re-train. It seems to me it requires more control.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

eh - I'll believe it when I see it, and until I do I won't lose any sleep over it, just like I won't be holding my breath about the attack on the handler being put back - something else we hear will be happening for sure year after year.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

This is all about making it easier for the show folks. 
Let's face it, money and not good dogs rule the dog world here in the States.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> This is all about making it easier for the show folks.
> Let's face it, money and not good dogs rule the dog world here in the States.


I'm not seeing whats easier, care to point this out?


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Edward Egan said:


> I don't see this being easier to train, especially re-train. It seems to me it requires more control.


Less control you will be next to the dog if I understand correctly When I train the set up for the escape I break it down and give bites from he escape with me next to my dog some times the helper takes off, some times I tell the dog to bite and then the helper takes off its the last step I use in teaching the exercise before I go to the blind.


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

I see it as more control also, now.... as soon as the helper moves in every bite exercise the dog is supposed to bite... without command, if and when changes come about... on the escape only, helper takes off and the dog can only bite after you command it? maybe I am misunderstanding it.

I dont know if its any "easier" for the show dogs.... but seems harder for the dogs with more drive that are more of a challenge to control .... as soon as I read it images of e-collars flashed through my head....

t


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Hi Tracey,

I agree it will require more control. Watch any of the Mondio or French Ring face or flee attacks. The dog is agitated and can't go till you send him. I'd like to see the courage test changed so you can NOT hold the dog by the collar, but he can't go till you send him too. We'll have to wait for the details on the escape bite. If it's the same hand signal from the judge for both decoy and handler, then the dog is going on movement and you just have to get out the redundant "command" quickly. If there is a delay between when the decoy leaves and when you can send the dog. There could be BIG problems with slow handler reaction time and quick decoys, especially if we'll still have a set distance that the dog has to catch the decoy.






tracey delin said:


> I see it as more control also, now.... as soon as the helper moves in every bite exercise the dog is supposed to bite... without command, if and when changes come about... on the escape only, helper takes off and the dog can only bite after you command it? maybe I am misunderstanding it.
> 
> I dont know if its any "easier" for the show dogs.... but seems harder for the dogs with more drive that are more of a challenge to control .... as soon as I read it images of e-collars flashed through my head....
> 
> t


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

I always had the problem with telling the dog to platz & then expecting him to break the command & chase the helper without any further command-it seems counterintuitive-bad for obedience commands & unsafe. If your dog is told to platz, & someone runs past him, he might think it's ok to chase him down & bite. I have a seperate command for the escape instead of platz. The command meant, stay down until the guy runs away & then you can go get him. I'm thinking that's why the change in rules.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Sue Miller said:


> I always had the problem with telling the dog to platz & then expecting him to break the command & chase the helper without any further command-it seems counterintuitive-bad for obedience commands & unsafe. If your dog is told to platz, & someone runs past him, he might think it's ok to chase him down & bite. I have a seperate command for the escape instead of platz. The command meant, stay down until the guy runs away & then you can go get him. I'm thinking that's why the change in rules.


HI Sue,

I hadn't thought about it that way, but it makes sense.
I've always been bothered by having to use HereFuss on the call out. Here is front, fuss is heel position. It's like saying
sitplatz?


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Not to me, it doesn't make sense at all, and it certainly is not unsafe the way it's done now. In this exercise my dog is supposed to be GUARDING the helper when I step back into the blind, that's part of the exercise. If my dog is watching me he is not GUARDING the helper so the exercise will be pointless. To reduce it to me standing next to my dog and commanding him is stupid and defeats the purpose of the exercise completely. And no, it will not require any more control because we will be right on top of the dog, not having stepped away into the blind, the dog will no longer be guarding, we are taking that away, which is really dumb. 

I have NEVER had a dog break a platz and chase anyone other than the helper in this exercize, Sue. Furthermore, I have never known anyone to have a problem in this regard either. 

Right now at least the people I train with anyway, don't have a hand on the collar for the long bite because you can't in IPO anyway. The dog does not go until I give him the verbal command. So the control is demonstrated in this way and in this exercise.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Maybe you still have to return to the blind, who knows at this point.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Sue Miller said:


> I always had the problem with telling the dog to platz & then expecting him to break the command & chase the helper without any further command-it seems counterintuitive-bad for obedience commands & unsafe. If your dog is told to platz, & someone runs past him, he might think it's ok to chase him down & bite. I have a seperate command for the escape instead of platz. The command meant, stay down until the guy runs away & then you can go get him. I'm thinking that's why the change in rules.


How long have you been training Schutzhund dogs?
The long bite is the only time the dog is given a command by the handler to attack no other time.
And I will also mention giving a separate command other than platz will get you a point loss same command once given must be used through out. I got nailed a month ago at our Regional after I tell the helper to step out rather than tell my dog fuss that means proper position and looking at me, I would say walk which means proper position but he watches the helper through out the time he is on the protection field The only time he must look to me is when we go to blind one and the Judge signals me to precede and we turn and face blind one, I whisper ready he is then allowed to look to blind one before I send him.
Ive been questioning my self if this might be my last Schutzhund/IPO dog


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> Not to me, it doesn't make sense at all, and it certainly is not unsafe the way it's done now. In this exercise my dog is supposed to be GUARDING the helper when I step back into the blind, that's part of the exercise. If my dog is watching me he is not GUARDING the helper so the exercise will be pointless. To reduce it to me standing next to my dog and commanding him is stupid and defeats the purpose of the exercise completely. And no, it will not require any more control because we will be right on top of the dog, not having stepped away into the blind, the dog will no longer be guarding, we are taking that away, which is really dumb.
> 
> I have NEVER had a dog break a platz and chase anyone other than the helper in this exercize, Sue. Furthermore, I have never known anyone to have a problem in this regard either.
> 
> Right now at least the people I train with anyway, don't have a hand on the collar for the long bite because you can't in IPO anyway. The dog does not go until I give him the verbal command. So the control is demonstrated in this way and in this exercise.



Sorry , don't know much about Schtz. but deal with something similar then what's proposed . 

In our PSD certificatin in bitework we have in 1 phase we have 3 things that must be done with a decoy in the same position each time we line up
a long attack , false start(decoy is positioned same as long bite runs but dog must stay) and a recall(looks same as long bite again but dg is sent and when it reaches a 17 yard line is called back before he can bite) . The order is drawn when you first line up n the decoy so yu can pattern train it . 

In all 3 phases the dog isn't supposed to go unless commanded . Some handler were training having the dog focus on the handler instead which defeated the purpose of the excersize . It took a couple of years til there was a rule change stating the dog must focus on the decoy . 

Just thinking that might be the rule if passed may progress for you folks too .


We practice it at many different distances and overall it's not that difficult regardless of distance . But I have had both my dogs give me the old F' You on occassion .


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Mike Scheiber said:


> How long have you been training Schutzhund dogs?
> The long bite is the only time the dog is given a command by the handler to attack no other time.
> And I will also mention giving a separate command other than platz will get you a point loss same command once given must be used through out. I got nailed a month ago at our Regional after I tell the helper to step out rather than tell my dog fuss that means proper position and looking at me, I would say walk which means proper position but he watches the helper through out the time he is on the protection field The only time he must look to me is when we go to blind one and the Judge signals me to precede and we turn and face blind one, I whisper ready he is then allowed to look to blind one before I send him.
> Ive been questioning my self if this might be my last Schutzhund/IPO dog


Well, you're really not telling the dog to platz. You're telling the dog to lay down & if the helper moves go after him. You're really not telling the dog to heel in the escape bite, you're telling the dog to stay by your side until the helper turns to attack & then go after him.

Really, I think your sending the wrong message to your dog when you give him a command that means one thing on the field & another off the field.

People say SchH isn't "real". Expecting a dog to act one way on the field when given a command & a different way off the field when given the same command doesn't make sense at all.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Sue Miller said:


> Well, you're really not telling the dog to platz. You're telling the dog to lay down & if the helper moves go after him. You're really not telling the dog to heel in the escape bite, you're telling the dog to stay by your side until the helper turns to attack & then go after him.
> 
> Really, I think your sending the wrong message to your dog when you give him a command that means one thing on the field & another off the field.
> 
> People say SchH isn't "real". Expecting a dog to act one way on the field when given a command & a different way off the field when given the same command doesn't make sense at all.


"Heeling in the escape bite"? What are you talking about, do you mean "attack on the dog in the back transport"? You are confusing me because in the first instance the dog is not heeling he has been placed in a down, and in the second it is not an escape it is an attack. 

If you are talking about the attack in the back transport, AGAIN - the dog is GUARDING during this phase too. We aren't giving the dog a command that means one thing on the field and another off, it is the situation that is different, the dog is GUARDING THE HELPER in every instance where the dog must grip without being given a command it is GUARDING.

Jim I wouldn't have a problem with a "call off" being added as an additional exercize to the protection phase.


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Sue if you have an issue with how you are visualizing the commands on/ off the field.... why not just use different commands.

When I am off the field.... I dont tend to give Sch commands.... I dont need or want the formality of it. 

Susan, I think she mistyped and meant the back transport... but again you arent saying "foos" for this.... Im not anyway... I say "transport".

And yes, the entire protection routine is an exercise in guarding/ protection.... If your doing ob with your dog "off the field" and some idiot comes at you are you expecting your dog to stay in a platz cuz that is the command you gave him? 

t


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Ooopsy, had a late night & early morning-thanks Tracey, I meant the transports. I thought Mike was talking about the transports when he said he was dinged for saying walk. Anyway, just my thoughts


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Hi Susan (Tuck)

Holding the dog by the collar is allowed in IPO on the long flight as long as it is only holding and not setting the dog up.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Thanks Gillian, then I don't know why we do it this way, I guess it's just personal preference. Or maybe in anticipation of another rule change?

One more thing, in the old days in the long bite, we used to always shout a warning to the helper "stop or I'll send my dog" before sending the dog. In the current VPG rule book it says "The handler orders the helper to stop by calling out "Bleiben Sie Stehen" ....The helper ignores this blah blah blah....." BUT I don't know anyone who says this or anything at all anymore save for the arrest command to the dog. It is NOT a part of the exercise in the IPO rule book and I would think it would be considered "stimulating the dog", which I guess is why none of us do it anymore?


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Actually a verbal command telling the helper to stop is in the IPO rules.


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

What rule book are you guys looking at.... in ref to yelling at the helper... I dont see that anywhere....on the DVG America website looking under VDH, IPO, and the Judges book. I have never heard of this yelling at the helper since the rule change?

I KNOW on one of our IPO trials we trained the "not holding" of the dog on the long bite but that was years ago and I wonder if the rules have since changed or it was a big misconception by alot of people lol.

t


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I am looking at my current USA rule book......(at least I think it's current, I try to stay on top of it and request the rule changes be sent to me as soon as I see them on the USA website).....In the VPG section it's on page 81 "ATTACK ON THE DOG OUT OF MOTION". 

In the IPO section it's on page 41 (IPO2); and page 57 (IPO3) "ATTACK ON THE DOG OUT OF MOTION". In my rule book, there is no mention of the handler giving the helper a verbal warning in this exercize in the IPO2 & IPO3 rules. Interestingly enough, on page 25 (IPO1) it does say "helper disregards the handlers command to stop". Perhaps things are left out in translation.

In any case, I can't remember the last time I heard anyone warn the helper to stop before sending the dog in an IPO or schH/VPG trial.


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Maybe its a USA thing then??? I dont have a copy of that....


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> Thanks Gillian, then I don't know why we do it this way, I guess it's just personal preference. Or maybe in anticipation of another rule change?
> 
> One more thing, in the old days in the long bite, we used to always shout a warning to the helper "stop or I'll send my dog" before sending the dog. In the current VPG rule book it says "The handler orders the helper to stop by calling out "Bleiben Sie Stehen" ....The helper ignores this blah blah blah....." BUT I don't know anyone who says this or anything at all anymore save for the arrest command to the dog. It is NOT a part of the exercise in the IPO rule book and I would think it would be considered "stimulating the dog", which I guess is why none of us do it anymore?


I think too it's personal preference. The German breeder of our dogs told me he never held his dog at the BSP which was always so, that you could hold the dog, even when IPOs couldn't. I kept foot/paw contact which worked! The judge never noticed it.

I think a lot of "Bleiben Sie Stehen", etc. has been abolished. I shall certainly have to polish up "my" act before I trial. Pity, marching around like a German General and giving out orders was quite fun, especially having a dog to carry out my commands :lol:


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

It's a damn big pond heh!


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

It's not actually listed in the routine for each level it is found under Helper Regulations number 7-Regulations concerning the conduct of trial helpers.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Pity, marching around like a German General and giving out orders was quite fun, especially having a dog to carry out my commands :lol:




You are so funny, but it's true! I have heard my coach say on more than one occasion "SMILE who do you think you are a German in the BSP???"

Thanks Keith, I see it now, on Page 9 of the IPO section of the rule book.


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Sue Miller said:


> I always had the problem with telling the dog to platz & then expecting him to break the command & chase the helper without any further command-it seems counterintuitive-bad for obedience commands & unsafe. If your dog is told to platz, & someone runs past him, he might think it's ok to chase him down & bite. I have a seperate command for the escape instead of platz. The command meant, stay down until the guy runs away & then you can go get him. I'm thinking that's why the change in rules.


I think it's really clear for the dog..."platz" means "stay right there until that guy right there wearing a big padded thingie on his arm runs away from you going that way" just like he did the for the last two years and will for the next two years.

Or maybe my dog is just brilliant that way.

Laura


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> I think it's really clear for the dog..."platz" means "stay right there until that guy right there wearing a big padded thingie on his arm runs away from you going that way" just like he did the for the last two years and will for the next two years.
> 
> Or maybe my dog is just brilliant that way.
> 
> Laura


:lol: I'll go with brilliant my dog dose the same thing


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> I think it's really clear for the dog..."platz" means "stay right there until that guy right there wearing a big padded thingie on his arm runs away from you going that way" just like he did the for the last two years and will for the next two years.
> 
> Or maybe my dog is just brilliant that way.
> 
> Laura


When we trained this, I put my dog in "down" and removed myself a few yards behind him. The helper ran off, the dog after him and, when he landed the bite, I praised him. 

This at the beginning, takes any conflict out of the free flight.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Less control you will be next to the dog if I understand correctly When I train the set up for the escape I break it down and give bites from he escape with me next to my dog some times the helper takes off, some times I tell the dog to bite and then the helper takes off its the last step I use in teaching the exercise before I go to the blind.


Some dogs have focus training so deeply ingrained that they can't stop looking at the handler when he is standing next to the dog. So I think this may be harder for some dogs.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> I think it's really clear for the dog..."platz" means "stay right there until that guy right there wearing a big padded thingie on his arm runs away from you going that way" just like he did the for the last two years and will for the next two years.
> 
> Or maybe my dog is just brilliant that way.
> 
> Laura


Well you just had to go and get all techincal.......:lol:


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> I think it's really clear for the dog..."platz" means "stay right there until that guy right there wearing a big padded thingie on his arm runs away from you going that way" just like he did the for the last two years and will for the next two years.
> 
> Or maybe my dog is just brilliant that way.
> 
> Laura


Well, we're in sort of an unconventional situation-Las Vegas isn't big on SchH clubs & for years we've trained in public parks early in the morning or late at night-just me & my husband. So as far as the triggers of going to a certain club at a certain time with certain people, blinds & jumps set up indicating to the dog that platz doesn't really mean platz & fuss doesn't really mean fuss-it just doesn't happen for us. We have to improvise. So we don't pattern train-we work on one exercise & put the routine together randomly when we do work at a club.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Sue Miller said:


> Well, we're in sort of an unconventional situation-Las Vegas isn't big on SchH clubs & for years we've trained in public parks early in the morning or late at night-just me & my husband. So as far as the triggers of going to a certain club at a certain time with certain people, blinds & jumps set up indicating to the dog that platz doesn't really mean platz & fuss doesn't really mean fuss-it just doesn't happen for us. We have to improvise. So we don't pattern train-we work on one exercise & put the routine together randomly when we do work at a club.


We train all over the place too, from clubs to parks, different times and days, there can be different helpers, etc. and we don't always use blinds. Even so, the escape exercise is still done the same way every time: Helper step out, heel to spot, dog down guarding the helper, handler steps away, the helper tries to escape, dog engages. This is what is meant by doing it the same way every time so it's very clear to the dog what is expected of him.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Christopher Smith said:


> Some dogs have focus training so deeply ingrained that they can't stop looking at the handler when he is standing next to the dog. So I think this may be harder for some dogs.


You are rite my dog did look to me when I say heir-fuss I had to teach him with a second command that came after the call out I said "good" that gave him permission to look to the helper I was quickly able to drop the "good" and when I say "helper step out" he now gets to look to the helper. 
Like I said earlier I gave a walk command that meant he has to move in heel position but can watch the helper I got dinged points for this so now I have to figure out how to get from the call out to the escape line with out using this command, I don't want to say "fuss" he must look to me for this and I ain't messing with gray training. I have worked sort of hard on this and I like the look that my dog keeps his focus and eye on the helper through out all the exercises of bite work. 
Any way you are rite it will be hard for some and it could be a gray training area.
Why the **** they got to keep messing with Schutzhund


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Why the **** they got to keep messing with Schutzhund


One reason is that the training and handling have gotten insanely good. Gotta' take the points from somewhere.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Christopher Smith said:


> One reason is that the training and handling have gotten insanely good. Gotta' take the points from somewhere.


I think this will be easier to train at least for me, its the step I train befor I move to the blind 
Like you said its going to be hard for the dogs that have been trained they must look to there handlers guess I'm lucky I have taught a look away command on this dog.


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

I can't bealone in this but it'll be harder for me as I have a hard enough time with the step back before the transport, I need to be in his head.... now a judge is gonna give the command......and they are also adding a stationary down until commanded with a helper running away? Handler maybe at the dogs side maybe not? I welcome the challenge but surely new areas for points loss. Never even entered my mind a dog that was more fixed on the handler than the decoy.... I guess a whole other set of problems to work on.
T


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

tracey delin said:


> I can't bealone in this but it'll be harder for me as I have a hard enough time with the step back before the transport, I need to be in his head.... now a judge is gonna give the command......and they are also adding a stationary down until commanded with a helper running away? Handler maybe at the dogs side maybe not? I welcome the challenge but surely new areas for points loss. Never even entered my mind a dog that was more fixed on the handler than the decoy.... I guess a whole other set of problems to work on.
> T


Tracy, I doubt judge will be queuing the command. From what I've been told it still be the same exercise but you stand next to the dog and tell him to "go" when the helper leaves. Don't get crazy about this stuff until it's official.


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

I meant for the back transport it was mentioned the judge will tell the helper to step back/ move out etc. But no not crazy .... i like control work..


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

tracey delin said:


> I meant for the back transport it was mentioned the judge will tell the helper to step back/ move out etc. But no not crazy .... i like control work..


The judge is already supposed to tell the decoy to step out of the blind (and not the handler) before you know it they'll have the judge telling the dog to hup on the hurdle and A-frame :-(


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## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

I spoke with Adolf Glaser, (SV judge Germany) at my SchH USA club trial this weekend about some of the rule changes. His interpretation of the escape rule change is that the HANDLER gives the ONE command and the helper and the dog both take off at the same time when the HANDLER gives the one command. That being said, he also told my TD before he flew back today that the newest info he has heard is that there is a LOT of controversy still going on about the rule changes, and the last thing he heard is that they probably won't take effect as of Jan1. On a side note, 3 rotts did well this weekend at the trial. Brad Wilhelm's bitch Sookie passed her BH, Ron Lemieux's male Gunther passed his BH, and my boy Shane passed his SchH3 for the 3rd time.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Thanks for the update Skip


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## Esther Chai (Feb 18, 2009)

Skip Morgart wrote: "I spoke with Adolf Glaser, (SV judge Germany) at my SchH USA club trial this weekend about some of the rule changes. His interpretation of the escape rule change is that the HANDLER gives the ONE command and the helper and the dog both take off at the same time when the HANDLER gives the one command."

So techincally, isn't that a passive bite command?


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## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

"So techincally, isn't that a passive bite command?"


I'm not going to speculate on ANY part of it for now. That was the judge's interpretation at this point, but I'm going to wait and see what really happens.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Skip Morgart said:


> "So techincally, isn't that a passive bite command?"
> 
> 
> I'm not going to speculate on ANY part of it for now. That was the judge's interpretation at this point, but I'm going to wait and see what really happens.


I would say NO
A passive bite command IMHO would be to send a dog on a passive decoy. If the decoy reacts at the same time as the dog then it isn't a passive bite. Your mileage may vary


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Skip Morgart said:


> "So techincally, isn't that a passive bite command?"
> 
> 
> I'm not going to speculate on ANY part of it for now. That was the judge's interpretation at this point, but I'm going to wait and see what really happens.


I use "get-em" on the long bite guess this will be the same.


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## Sue Calkins (Nov 5, 2009)

I personally don't think it matters what you say...the dog will hear the first letter and be on the grip. I could say any darn word on the courage bite (yes, I like to call it that) and he'd go.
Sue


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

From what I have been reading all over the internet, it looks like there will be no changes for 2011, everything tabled by FCI until 2012? Anyone know anything officially?


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

*From the horse's mouth so to speak (SV)*

*Wichtiger Hinweis zur Prüfungssaison 2011 (SV-HG)* 


Die geplante neue gemeinsame Prüfungsordnung (WUSV, VDH, FCI) kann zum 01.01.2011 noch nicht eingeführt werden, es gilt weiterhin die bisher gültige Fassung.

The new common Reglement (WUSV, VDH, FCI) planned for 1.1.2011 will not come into force and the previous valid rules willl apply.

I've heard it will first come into force in 2012.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Thanks Gillian, I should have just asked you in the first place!


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