# E-Collar Uses In Bitework



## Doug Wright 2 (Jul 24, 2011)

A recent post on brand preference inspired me to ask how and why an e-collar may be usefull in bitework training. I was examining a Leerburg DVD and it showed a police service dog wearing one and while he was on the bite, he was being stimulated. What purpose did this serve? I have an ecollar and was taught to use it for corrections. How can a dog see it any other way?

Thanks


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Doug Wright 2 said:


> A recent post on brand preference inspired me to ask how and why an e-collar may be usefull in bitework training. I was examining a Leerburg DVD and it showed a police service dog wearing one and while he was on the bite, he was being stimulated. What purpose did this serve? I have an ecollar and was taught to use it for corrections. How can a dog see it any other way?
> 
> Thanks


I dont use an ecollar with bitework but what does a dog do on the bite when leash pressure is applied? Without seeing the video thats my guess. Some of those videos are pretty wonky ..

ecollars have tons of uses outside of blasting the crap out of the dog. As time goes on we will see more and more of these uses as people discover new and inventive ways to use them.


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

Doug Wright 2 said:


> A recent post on brand preference inspired me to ask how and why an e-collar may be usefull in bitework training. I was examining a Leerburg DVD and it showed a police service dog wearing one and while he was on the bite, he was being stimulated. What purpose did this serve? I have an ecollar and was taught to use it for corrections. How can a dog see it any other way?
> 
> Thanks


Which vid were you watching?


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

1. obviously if you want comments on a video, post it .... please 

2. not that it might matter to you or anyone else, but i don't care for vids using Ecollars since most of the time you cannot see when the stim is applied, when it's stopped or what levels are being used, unless some very fancy on-screen editing is used, and ESPECIALLY when it is used at low levels 
- of course as you get into the "zap" and "blast" modes you might see direct reactions from the dog, but even those are not always as clear as they might appear. and i don't think there is much training value in watching someone blast a dog off a deer or critter :-(
- not many trainers are going to be further distracting their dog and shouting out what they are doing with the collar just so someone watching will know.
- maybe two people working together, with the transmitter in view in the picture , but i've never seen that technique used in a vid either. but i have seen a trainer or helper working the Ecollar with the handler basically "clueless" as to what is being done 

3. if the trainer did a good job of explaining exactly what the session was going to involve and how the Ecollar was going to be used, etc etc., it might have more value, but it's still hard to see the timing of a finger press, and most training is very dependent on timing

4. to use it effectively requires a lot more practice and finesse than most any other training tool ... imo of course 
- there might be some good vids on "Ecollar theory" that would help as a starter

** which to me means : find a mentor who is skillful at using one and work with them to build a learning curve rather than use your dog as the test subject in a one on one set up. they at least will be able to set it up correctly for your dog and help you plan your sessions BEFORE you do them by yourself...and make sure BOTH of you are on the same page


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## Doug Wright 2 (Jul 24, 2011)

It was Leerbergs "Training personal protection dogs". Rick, I can't post the whole 2 hour dvd I get sued for sure. I was just wondering the reasoning for it. Nothing more.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Doug,

The training personal protection dogs DVD is pretty outdated and I don't think even Ed Frawley trains that way anymore? I use e-collars during bite work at low levels to help the dog out by making it uncomfortable not painful. I also use one as a reminder for recalls. I've never seen very high level blast the dog off the sleeve work long term. They create more problems then they help in my experience.


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## Larry Krohn (Nov 18, 2010)

Doug Wright 2 said:


> A recent post on brand preference inspired me to ask how and why an e-collar may be usefull in bitework training. I was examining a Leerburg DVD and it showed a police service dog wearing one and while he was on the bite, he was being stimulated. What purpose did this serve? I have an ecollar and was taught to use it for corrections. How can a dog see it any other way?
> 
> Thanks


Doug, if you are only using it for corrections you will never have great succes with the e collar. There is a lot more to it than just corrections.


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## Ted Summers (May 14, 2012)

I agree with the above post. I use the vibrate Fx a lot more than the stim. If you want to see an interesting out, work a dog that has been taught to out with an electric sleeve. Very distinctive out.....


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## lannie dulin (Sep 4, 2012)

In the ME e-collar video he explains using them on the bite to "jack the dog up". He also says he doesn't do or like that because you lose the ability to use that tool for any other purpose. And yes the video is outdated, the only thing I don't like about Leerburg is they don't provide a disclaimer telling you this before you spend your $ on it.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

lannie dulin said:


> In the ME e-collar video he explains using them on the bite to "jack the dog up". He also says he doesn't do or like that because you lose the ability to use that tool for any other purpose. And yes the video is outdated, the only thing I don't like about Leerburg is they don't provide a disclaimer telling you this before you spend your $ on it.


just curious as to the meaning of the use of the phrase "jack the dog up" in this post....do not have that video for referrence.


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## Mircea Hemu-Ha (Nov 24, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> just curious as to the meaning of the use of the phrase "jack the dog up" in this post....do not have that video for referrence.


Ellis says that using the e-collar on dogs that have a problem with the out will only make it worse, they take the pain and put it back into the biting. I think this is what he means by jack the dog up.


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## lannie dulin (Sep 4, 2012)

Mircea Hemu-Ha said:


> Ellis says that using the e-collar on dogs that have a problem with the out will only make it worse, they take the pain and put it back into the biting. I think this is what he means by jack the dog up.


Yep exactly. In that same segment he references using a prong collar to do the same thing. He said it has been used that way, but the same problem happens, you lose the correction tool. Once it has been conditioned to be associated with the bite when you go to use it outside of a bite situation you end up getting the dog worked up and looking for a bite rather than thinking "oh he said "sit", not "down".


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## Doug Wright 2 (Jul 24, 2011)

You're not lying about that dvd being out dated. I was pretty disappointed. But I did find some of the info useful. Although it will be the last I buy. I have two and the narration doesn't match the video. I get what you've been saying about the use of ecollar. Ive only used my for correction - not blasting. Usually the vib feature does the trick. Thanks a lot. I waz just curious.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Mircea Hemu-Ha said:


> Ellis says that using the e-collar on dogs that have a problem with the out will only make it worse, they take the pain and put it back into the biting. I think this is what he means by jack the dog up.


It all depends on how you use the E-collar. IF you use it to cause pain then you can get a dog that associates the pain with biting and not obedience and have problems. If you use the e-collar at low levels on Continuous to cause mild discomfort. Then you wouldn't have as many problems.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

oh I dont know...

I have used both on biting dogs, not saying I am suggesting it, but have used both, and have not noticed either becoming useless as a correction or teaching or amping tool for other things.

I have noticed that if used for outing with certain dogs, it can become useless for outing purposes, but have not seen that uselessness transfer into other uses...


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## Robley Smith (Apr 20, 2012)

I attended a seminar where I saw ecollars used in protection both to "jack up" dogs and to bring obedience arround durring the protection phase. There were a lot of little details to try and absorb, and I am sure I didn't catch half of what was being offered but here it is. 

When being used to "jack up" a dog being worked through civil drive, it was after the dog had a few sessions of some fairly intense pressure and there was no way the helper was getting behind or near enough to the dog to tweak him in any way. The dog was wise to all that. So the helper would threaten the dog, lunge and make grabbing motions, and the dog would get stims from them and then get his bite while fighting mad and thus "winning" past or through the pressure.

I was the most impressed when the ecollar was used in the protection phase for obedience. One that stood out was a dutchie, who was so high in drive for protection he just wasn't very clear headed. His internal volume was at 10, and he was leaking everywhere. Corrections from the handler just seemed to bring conflict and even a little redirection. The speaker had the handler step a little further away than would be usual , and be very calm while giving commands. The dog would get stimmed when he failed to comply, the handler would calmly repeat commands and the dog would soon begin to comply to turn off the pressure, and you could just see his head clearing. Yes I am sure he was losing some drive, but he had more than he could deal with as it was, and with every little repitition you could see him get better and better control of himself, and he had none of the conflict with the handler displayed before. And after all that he would get his bite and another round of the same, before long his performance looked like the best it had while recieving stims, but he wasn't getting any at all. He was still very intense on the Helper. I hope I am explaining this well, as it was very impressive.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Robley Smith said:


> I attended a seminar where I saw ecollars used in protection both to "jack up" dogs and to bring obedience arround durring the protection phase. There were a lot of little details to try and absorb, and I am sure I didn't catch half of what was being offered but here it is.
> 
> When being used to "jack up" a dog being worked through civil drive, it was after the dog had a few sessions of some fairly intense pressure and there was no way the helper was getting behind or near enough to the dog to tweak him in any way. The dog was wise to all that. So the helper would threaten the dog, lunge and make grabbing motions, and the dog would get stims from them and then get his bite while fighting mad and thus "winning" past or through the pressure.
> 
> I was the most impressed when the ecollar was used in the protection phase for obedience. One that stood out was a dutchie, who was so high in drive for protection he just wasn't very clear headed. His internal volume was at 10, and he was leaking everywhere. Corrections from the handler just seemed to bring conflict and even a little redirection. The speaker had the handler step a little further away than would be usual , and be very calm while giving commands. The dog would get stimmed when he failed to comply, the handler would calmly repeat commands and the dog would soon begin to comply to turn off the pressure, and you could just see his head clearing. Yes I am sure he was losing some drive, but he had more than he could deal with as it was, and with every little repitition you could see him get better and better control of himself, and he had none of the conflict with the handler displayed before. And after all that he would get his bite and another round of the same, before long his performance looked like the best it had while recieving stims, but he wasn't getting any at all. He was still very intense on the Helper. I hope I am explaining this well, as it was very impressive.


well explained I think..


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Robley Smith said:


> The dog would get stimmed when he failed to comply, the handler would calmly repeat commands and the dog would soon begin to comply to turn off the pressure, and you could just see his head clearing. Yes I am sure he was losing some drive, but he had more than he could deal with as it was, and with every little repitition you could see him get better and better control of himself, and he had none of the conflict with the handler displayed before. And after all that he would get his bite and another round of the same, before long his performance looked like the best it had while recieving stims, but he wasn't getting any at all. He was still very intense on the Helper. I hope I am explaining this well, as it was very impressive.


Absolutely it makes sense. I have a short video of this very thing happening with my dog though there was understandably initial evidence of conflict. After months of failed attempts using other methods her failure to out off the helper was rectified in about 2-3 sessions using an e collar. The dog wasn't worked for almost 9 months after that and when brought back out she worked and showed no indication of the problems we had experienced the year prior.

This video is the of the first time we used an e collar on her. I acknowledge that doesn't come together with finesse or as well as you described however due to a number of variables. For example prior to this she never had an e collar on and aside from stimming myself with it I had never used an e collar before so we were both learning as we went along in the session. It's pretty clear to see when she's stimmed because the collar is positioned so that you can see the light during filming.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVp7FwPKV1w


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

thanks for sharing..

like the music on this one...

I was driving yesterday, blasting my Brian Setzer Orchestra CD, and people were looking at me like I was nuts...


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Not nuts at all - good taste. 

My owns tastes vary from George Winston to S.O.D. and just about everything in between which of course includes a splash of some pretty raunchy, dirty, f$*k crazy music. Most people that have truly varied tastes in music don't care so much about the overlay on videos. I contend that the work I do is for me and that includes choosing the music to go along with whatever I'm feeling or seeing at the time. Sometimes, though I add nothing else but the visual aspect.


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## Dave Martin (Aug 11, 2010)

Robley Smith said:


> I was the most impressed when the ecollar was used in the protection phase for obedience. One that stood out was a dutchie, who was so high in drive for protection he just wasn't very clear headed. His internal volume was at 10, and he was leaking everywhere. Corrections from the handler just seemed to bring conflict and even a little redirection. The speaker had the handler step a little further away than would be usual , and be very calm while giving commands. The dog would get stimmed when he failed to comply, the handler would calmly repeat commands and the dog would soon begin to comply to turn off the pressure, and you could just see his head clearing. Yes I am sure he was losing some drive, but he had more than he could deal with as it was, and with every little repitition you could see him get better and better control of himself, and he had none of the conflict with the handler displayed before. And after all that he would get his bite and another round of the same, before long his performance looked like the best it had while recieving stims, but he wasn't getting any at all. He was still very intense on the Helper. I hope I am explaining this well, as it was very impressive.


This is very interesting to me. I have only been using the ecollar for a couple years and I still haven't taken the time to try constant stimulation for certain exercises I know it would benefit (I have had success using it more as a prong collar correction for the time being).

This type of work with a dog in overdrive, who can tend to lose his clear head, makes a lot of sense now.

Thank you for sharing that.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Larry Krohn said:


> Doug, if you are only using it for corrections you will never have great succes with the e collar. There is a lot more to it than just corrections.


 
Can you describe what you use an ecollar before besides corrections? Do you stim the dog when he's doing something right?


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## Larry Krohn (Nov 18, 2010)

Dave Colborn said:


> Can you describe what you use an ecollar before besides corrections? Do you stim the dog when he's doing something right?


The e collar is most effective when it is clear communication for the dog. Below I included exactly how I condition dogs to the e collar. I broke it down very simply after being asked on other forums on how I teach e collar. I hope this helps


Conditioning the dog to the collar:

First start with a hungry dog. I use Natural Balance or Red Barn food roll for training. Put the dog on a 15 foot line. Put a piece of training food in front of the dog and get it to follow it a little before marking with a YES and reward. Do this for a few minutes so your dog associates the marker word with the reward. The collar is already on at this point. After a few minutes you can now start conditioning with the E Collar.

*Conditioning with the nick button:* With your dog on a long line,(15ft.) give the come command and immediately *AFTER* tap the nick button and give a tug on the line at the same time. As soon as the dog turns to head your way use the marker word(YES) and reward the behavior. Remember to mark or say the marker word the second the dog starts your way. Continue to practice this for 5 to 10 minutes at a time.

*Conditioning with the continuous button: *With your dog on a long line, press the button *FIRST* and keep it pushed down. Give the come command and a quick tug on the leash right after you give the command. As soon as the dog starts to move toward you release the continuous button and say YES rewarding the dog’s movement toward you. Make sure to present the treat for your dog to see. The reward should immediately follow the word YES. With the continuous button the dog is turning off the collar stimulation by performing the command. Continue to practice this for 5 to 10 minutes at a time.


You should keep it simple and condition your dog this way for 1 to 2 weeks depending on the dog’s learning ability. Five to ten minutes a few times a day is better than 30 to 60 minutes at a time. Keep it short or the dog will lose interest in training. When possible train before instead of right after meals. The hungrier your dog is the more rewarding your training food will be.

After your dog is conditioned to the collar, continue to use it as much as possible for several weeks. Remember to always give command first then follow with a tap on the collar immediately after the command, nick or continuous, it does not matter once the dog understands both. After a few weeks you will use the collar intermittently, meaning tap the collar every other command, then every third command. This is how we start weaning the dog off relying on the collar. The main goal is to have the dog listen to the verbal command, not just the collar stimulation. This is how the dog learns to obey weather or not the collar is on.​


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

I don't even know where to start. 

Using an e-collar for outing can work for some dogs. In other dogs it can create either more stimulation and make the issue worse and/or create conflict between the handler and dog. There is no better tool in teaching fight drive exactly where you do NOT want it, during the out command. 

We use the e-collar A LOT in teaching, proofing and securing blind searches. 

We use it to block dogs as a correction for getting dirty on the helper. 

We use it on low stim as a teaching tool to focus on helpers during teaching the transport exercises. 

We use it a lot in the obedience aspects of protection work. 

We have a pinch on the dog attached to the leash for every single protection exercise to create conflict and yes, to stimulate fight drive. If Ellis says this bleeds over and takes away the pinch as a method of correction then he simply does not know how to properly use the pinch in protection.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Thanks for the reply.

So Negative reinforcement? A stimulus that is removed when the dog does what it's supposed to do?

Similar to pulling up on a choke chain and pushing down on a dogs butt, releasing when they comply? I am not knocking this as it works well for a lot of dogs in certain circumstances. Not my method of choice for teaching a dog anything as I'd rather have them understand the basics of what I am asking before I put any stimulation in there.. I had hopes of hearing something I hadn't heard or seen before, that's all.

I have seen some fantastic behaviors trained this way, but i also saw a few fantastic dogs trained in the military on a leash and choke chain as well. Also not my method of choice now for training.







Larry Krohn said:


> The e collar is most effective when it is clear communication for the dog. Below I included exactly how I condition dogs to the e collar. I broke it down very simply after being asked on other forums on how I teach e collar. I hope this helps
> 
> 
> Conditioning the dog to the collar:
> ...


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## Larry Krohn (Nov 18, 2010)

Dave Colborn said:


> Thanks for the reply.
> 
> So Negative reinforcement? A stimulus that is removed when the dog does what it's supposed to do?
> 
> ...


It's NEPOPO, Bart Belon's system which is still the best system I have ever seen. Also with a lot of michael Ellis's marker system and a lot of Michael's e collar work.


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## Larry Krohn (Nov 18, 2010)

Dave Colborn said:


> Thanks for the reply.
> 
> So Negative reinforcement? A stimulus that is removed when the dog does what it's supposed to do?
> 
> ...


Also, yes I teach using markers, I don't teach with the e collar. It is used for commands that the dog knows well, but can also be used to correct certain behaviors where you want the suspicion such as digging or counter surfing


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## Ted Summers (May 14, 2012)

I do what Larry outlined above but also use the word "no" to signal that a correction is imminent (with in a second) should the dog not comply. The dogs learns he can avoid a correction with compliance. 

Long line -> "here" command -> non compliance -> "no" -> leash pop and nick -> "yes" reward. The sequence happens quickly and I find that it has built/builds speed in OB and bite work. He knows he has to comply, it's his choice to get nicked not mine. Several times I've given a command and he looks at me, and I say "no" (perhaps he didn't hear me?) and the "no" is usually enough to get compliance. Of course I only use this when he knows, that I know, the he knows what I'm saying and knows what to do. I don't ever us the collar to teach new stuff.

I also used the vibrate feature for the recall. Vibrate means drop everything and return to me at once or turn around and look at me for your next command. I can take him in public sans leash and the e-collar vibrate does the trick along with the ''no'' marker.


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## Ted Summers (May 14, 2012)

One thing I forgot to mention is that the method Larry outlines above teaches the dog that the stim/correction comes directly from the handler.

One *very* well known SCH/IPO guy loves to tell people that you have to hide the remote and the dog should think the stim/correction comes "from God." I asked him how you avoid conflict with the dog that way and he answered, "no, no.... Conflict is good. You want the dog to fight you for what he wants." :roll:


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