# How to decide who to breed to?



## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Since we're discussing breeding quite a bit here lately, I thought I'd take a chance and ask a question. 

In the spring, I am planning on breeding my young female, Naccia. I know what traits I would like to improve upon, what I would like to breed away from, and what I would like to keep/make stronger, but I don't have enough knowledge of bloodlines to know who to breed her with in order to get what I want. The only place - that I know of - that I can do any research in this area is online. I don't know of anyone locally that I could consult with. 

Here's a link to her pedigree: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/524500.html


I understand that if you linebreed, you're best off doing it within the first 3-4 generations of the pedigree to really make it count, so to speak. IOW, there's not much of a point in linebreeding on a dog past the 5th or 6th generation. In Naccia's pedigree, there are a few well-known dogs/kennel names, but I don't know enough about them to know whether or not I want to focus on trying to linebreed on them. 

I do know that I don't want to breed her to a male simply because the male is close and it is convenient. I got Naccia with the intent on developing my own line of dogs, and want to do the best I can, but without a mentor, I'm afraid I'd be like a one-legged duck - working my ass off but never getting anywhere.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

FInd a male with a lot of TOM or ORRY. I think that is where you are getting the things that you like. However, you would have to tell us what it is that you like, and what you dislike about this bitch.

If all else fails, master von der muff has a nice dog named Nico.


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## Jessica Gainer (Oct 9, 2009)

I am sure if you put what you want to build on, add to and breed away from with your female, more knowledgable people who understand pedigree can chime in... Also a good Email list for learning GSD pedigrees is http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/gsd-euro/

Good luck on finding a male!


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Thanks. 

Briefly, because I still have a crapload of stuff I need to get done before I go to bed and I had wanted to get it done before now and didn't :lol: , here are the positives:

She LOVES to work, & it makes no difference what you want to do with her; she throws herself into it with everything she's got, and will keep going as long as you will go. 
She's got nice food drive, super ball drive, and a good nose. 
I'm told her grip is quite hard, & not only for a female.
She likes to fight with the helper instead of just 'being along for the ride.'
She's a 'doggy' bitch, and also has nice structure for a working dog. 
She's excellent in the house and clean in the kennel.





Here are the negatives:

She is a _tad_ too 'friendly' towards strangers. She has no problem going up to anyone to be petted, and doesn't feel threatened by anyone. (this is a fine line, I realize)
She's a female, I know, but every once in a while she just gets really silly on the field, like she's forgotten what we know she knows, or maybe is just being stubborn. Either way, it's very annoying. Like this weekend, for example. She knows how to do a hold & bark, but she decided to just go in, jump up and snap/bark in the helper's face, then take a cheap shot, then sit in front of him and just stare. :roll:
She is a little bit handler soft. (another fine line)
She's on the large side.


I'm sure there's more that I could add to both lists, but I've got to get off this damn thing and get something done so I can go to bed!


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

I would not be worried about her being too friendly,i would see that as a plus.The handler softness worries me,that is a trait you do not want to pass on .
Go find out from the breeder how the littermates are doing and decide from there on what you want to do,if she is only average i would not breed her at all.Did you have her hips etc checked already?


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## xxxxxxxxKarina Scuckyte (Oct 27, 2008)

Maybe you could suggest what line to look for or even a particular male in Europe for this female: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/607543.html

From the positive side she is a great tracker, not too fast, thorough.
Quite serious in the protection, clear headed. Full good grips. We are working with an active and agressive helper and she shows herself great. 
Wants to please her handler, good food and prey drives. 
Still maturing, so I will see what she will develop into, but for now I like her and she's developing to the better side.
Very easy to live with, laid-back, but always ready to go. Great stamina (just two days ago pulled me for almost 8 hours with one break for about 10 minutes in a dogtrekking competition and didn't show any signs of being tired).
I like her structure and type, not too heavy, straight backed. 

From the negative I would like her to be more active in obedience and she's not a barker so we have some difficulties with barking part of the bark and hold. I would like to see a bit less softness for corrections but she never shuts off after it.

She was a bit shy of strangers for some time but now I see self-confidence, I think she just needed to mature a bit. 

One hip is great, the other is not perfect (rated B) but she had felt on that hip at least one time so it can be a slight trauma. Elbows are great.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

I thought about trying to get ahold of him and asking what he would do, but her breeder is in Germany and I do not think he speaks English. 

Everything is on her pedigree. She has an A-stamp and I have the actual X-rays themselves. I'm not sending them in to OFA, though; don't see the need in wasting the money. She has an AD, BH, a show card, and will be going for her SchH 1 in the spring.

Jeff mentioned linebreeding to Tom or Orry. Tom is what I was thinking, too, but then I have been told that Tom produces dogs that are hard to motivate and can be 'flat' in obedience.



Karina, I would appreciate it if you started your own separate thread, rather than hijacking mine. Thanks. :wink:


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## xxxxxxxxKarina Scuckyte (Oct 27, 2008)

Kristen Cabe said:


> Karina, I would appreciate it if you started your own separate thread, rather than hijacking mine. Thanks. :wink:


Sorry, I didn't think it would be good to make several identical threads.


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Kristen Cabe said:


> I thought about trying to get ahold of him and asking what he would do, but her breeder is in Germany and I do not think he speaks English.


You might be surprised, most Germans have a decent understanding of English as it is required in their schools. Depending on the breeders age it's more than likely he'll speak English or at least know someone who does. Just a thought, it's probably worth a try since he bred your dog he would have an idea of what might be the best solution for a mate.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

But how would I even go about trying to get in touch with him? I have his name and address from her papers, but do you think he'd even try to translate a letter he received in English?? 

I did not buy Naccia directly from him, btw.


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Kristen Cabe said:


> But how would I even go about trying to get in touch with him? I have his name and address from her papers, but do you think he'd even try to translate a letter he received in English??
> 
> I did not buy Naccia directly from him, btw.


Hmm that's a good question. It's still worth a shot to write a letter though, worst thing he can do is throw it away so can't hurt to try, right?
Most of the younger (by younger I mean 35 and under) generation Germans do speak English fluently and read it, it's a good bet that either he does or has someone who can translate. You never know until you try.
Do you still keep in contact with the person you bought her from? Are they saavy or a complete moron? That's another option for getting a good idea of what dogs could best improve your lines. Just my 2 cents.


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Kristen,
I did some googling and came across your kennel and also found a number of dogs with the same kennel name as your dog.Most are in the states,not so difficult to find.
Youre a breeder right?


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Kristen Cabe said:


> But how would I even go about trying to get in touch with him? I have his name and address from her papers, but do you think he'd even try to translate a letter he received in English??
> 
> I did not buy Naccia directly from him, btw.


I don't see why he wouldn't - even if the dog didn't come from him. Over the years I've communicated with many individuals from Holland, Germany, Poland, Sweden, etc regarding dogs. I've found that when it comes to dogs, language really isn't that much of a barrier - unless someone chooses to make it so. Hell, I was lucky enough to get one breeder to communicate with me in German so I could learn the language a bit. I appreciate their patience as my responses were a mixture of both languages. Give it a shot, you might be surprised at what you find.


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## Trish Campbell (Nov 28, 2006)

Research males that you like here in the states. Look at the dog itself, does it bring to the mix the strengths to offset your bitch's weaknesses? Does it represent it's predigree? Look at siblings, any progeny, etc. You have to look at overall health, hips, elbows, longevity. I look at combinations that have clicked before. Tom is in more dogs pedigrees today, go back and look at those dogs. Look at how they've been bred, what has worked, what hasn't. Thats where I would start. 

You have many possibilities out there for breeding males. You just need to start looking at dogs, speaking to the owners, any one with progeny, etc, do your homework. Your bitches breeder also may have good input. Language isn't much of a barrier anymore with the internet and translating programs. 

I guess specific line advice for Orry/Tom which is just my opinion .... Ufo has crossed well with Tom/Orry lines...brings in good biddability, higher drives in obedience. There's a nice Ufo son in Texas? Django v Haus Jurjim... My friend in Belgium owned him. I have found Asko to bring that to the mix also. I had a bitch with Orry lines, her sire was Olex Valsory-bringing in Timmy/Troll, drives through the roof, tough bitch, hard to control though. Could also bring in more Mink too...


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Mink is 5000 generations back, not sure I would even pay attention to him he is so far back.

If you do not want to line breed, then maybe go to half.


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## Sue DiCero (Sep 2, 2006)

Trish Campbell said:


> I guess specific line advice for Orry/Tom which is just my opinion .... Ufo has crossed well with Tom/Orry lines...brings in good biddability, higher drives in obedience. There's a nice Ufo son in Texas? Django v Haus Jurjim... My friend in Belgium owned him. I have found Asko to bring that to the mix also. I had a bitch with Orry lines, her sire was Olex Valsory-bringing in Timmy/Troll, drives through the roof, tough bitch, hard to control though. Could also bring in more Mink too...


Django sent to GA awhile back and has been for sale for a few months?

If you are looking for Ufo, I would go to Aceofnike. His hip background is stronger than Django and he is more accomplished. I have seen young progeny from him, from a Vito daughter, and they are very good, with stable nerves. Nike is also a dog that has no issue being around different situations and environments.


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## Sue DiCero (Sep 2, 2006)

Kristen Cabe said:


> Since we're discussing breeding quite a bit here lately, I thought I'd take a chance and ask a question.
> 
> In the spring, I am planning on breeding my young female, Naccia. I know what traits I would like to improve upon, what I would like to breed away from, and what I would like to keep/make stronger, but I don't have enough knowledge of bloodlines to know who to breed her with in order to get what I want. The only place - that I know of - that I can do any research in this area is online. I don't know of anyone locally that I could consult with.
> 
> ...


This is from another thread, but why do you want to breed her?

And if you do not know lines and do not want a mentor, you are boxing yourself in.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Someone mentioned via PM going to an Olex de Valsory son. Any thoughts on that? That would likely be a complete outcross, depending on who the dam is. 

I have no problem at _all_ doing a linebreeding. I just want to make sure I go back to the right dog if I do! 

Anyone have any input re: Tom's progeny being difficult to motivate and/or being 'flat'? I've also heard that there's an issue of low pack drive/willingness to work with the handler when it comes to Tom. 


A fellow club member bred her bitch to Nike last year (see: http://www.aceofnike.com/content/view/26/50/). She's the one holding the seminar with Charlie that I posted about several weeks ago. The puppies seem very nice, but were VERY dog aggressive at an extremely young age. I don't know if that's something common to his progeny or not, because I haven't seen any other than these guys, who are only just a year old.

Sue, I did not say that I did not _WANT_ a mentor! I said that currently I do not have one and don't know of anyone locally that I could consult with. I would_ love_ to find someone willing to help me get started! I _thought_ my TD had knowledge of pedigrees, etc., but after trying to speak with him about the subject of breeding, and observing _his_ breeding practices, I believe I may have been mistaken. One can only learn so much about dogs/lines online, and I really don't know where to begin to find the answers about how particular dogs are producing, etc. because when you do a search for specific dogs, you get a link to their pedigree, links to people who have bred to them, or YouTube links. Where are the discussions at??


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Ashley Campbell said:


> Do you still keep in contact with the person you bought her from?


No. I got her through a broker who is a good friend of my TD.





> Youre a breeder right?




No, not yet. Ask me again in 20 years! :lol:


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## Sue DiCero (Sep 2, 2006)

Kristan,

The puppies that I saw (1 yr from the Vito daughter) were strong, but social. Not dog aggressive at all. Those were from Sigrid's female? They are very nice Our dogs (and Hella, who is a very dominant bitch) no issue around them at all.

Mentors do not have to be in the logistical area. Look for someone that has a breeding focus that you like. Ones that also train and compete. Hands on knowledge, not paper knowledge (believe me- lots of those). Email/pick up the phone, call and ask. A good breeder will have no issue talking to you. But, it will be difficult if they can not see and work your female and talk to you about what they see.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Good to know. I spoke with Sigrid and she also said that they grew out of it, but seeing the litter at around 10 weeks was scary! They acted like they wanted to kill any other dog in sight! :-o

She also said that she did not know if Nike was still available for breeding, too, though.


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## Sue DiCero (Sep 2, 2006)

The olex/tom combo is good.


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## Sue DiCero (Sep 2, 2006)

Nike is available - contact Charlie directly.


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

I'm NOT a breeder but looking at her pedigree. I agree with the Orry/Tom suggestions as well as Nike. 

I like Orry a LOT. He is a NICE dog IMHO. BUT I like the Haus Antverpa dogs. 

Courtney


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

I did a little looking and this would be a good potential match up IMO. That said, I'm not a breeder. BUT it would be heavy on the Orry/Tom lines. A Tom granddaughter to a Tom son with an Orry daughter thrown in on the topside's bottomside. Ped looks good, I think.....

Here is what the ped would look like for them...
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/para.utkoma?fadir=513159&modir=524500


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

I've narrowed it down to two possible dogs at this point. Now I'm just trying to research what I can about them. One is Nike. The other is Hannes v Spadener Holz. One is semi-close. The other is all the way on the other end of the country. :lol:


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

Nice. Did you do the mating check on the database to compare pedigrees/what they would look like??? 

If not you should, I'd be interested in the Nike pairing. Are you gonna title her before the litter or after?? 

Courtney


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Yep.

Nike/Naccia: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/635472.html

Hannes: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/635465.html


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

So you are thinking outcross ??


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

>>shrug<< I guess so! :lol:

At least within the last 5 generations. Hannes would bring forward Ork v Wolfendobel, who Naccia is linebred on, so maybe not a complete outcross, but yeah.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

5 is pretty far back, how did that dog work ?? I would want to know that at least.


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

We have 2 Nike pups at our club, they are looking pretty good at 6mo age.


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

I like the Hannes ped the best out of those 2. I think you should do the Orry/Tom cross!! lol lol 

Judge goes back to Boy vom Pendel bach, I think....He does, Through Wespe which looks like is a sister to Wicki. I like the Pendel Bach and Wannaer Hohen lines. 

Courtney


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