# intermediate contol



## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

15 months old Malinois learning the correct placement during heeling and fluidity of motion without the aid of the leash, before itroducing speed of execution.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJKIkp_DB1o

happy training

max


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Max Orsi said:


> 15 months old Malinois learning the correct placement during heeling and fluidity of motion without the aid of the leash, before itroducing speed of execution.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJKIkp_DB1o
> 
> ...



Max

That description sounds a whole lot more impressive that
"finding the leg". I'll have to use it, if you don't mind


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

And part deux

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEE_OewyEPI


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Max
> 
> That description sounds a whole lot more impressive that
> "finding the leg". I'll have to use it, if you don't mind


Thomas, is not exactely finding the leg, is about keeping alligned with my hip without pushing his rear out or his face too much in front of me, or paying too much attention to the position of my legs, while I move in any direction trying to make the dog loose his correct position to help him be more attentive and to get a much more clear understanding.

He has very good mechanical skills on leash, now he has to think how to use his skills without help from me.

The more his correct execution is rewarded the smoother and faster he becomes, the more successful he is the higher you can change the expectation of how the exercise is to be performed

A little different than just heeling on straight lines where you never know if the dog is heeling to the handler or the handler is trying to keep up with the dog

Happy training

Max


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Max, I liked watching this. Did you teach position before focus?

C'est bon!!


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## Sami Kiiveri (May 3, 2007)

Thanks for shearing that one!
Are you going to trial that dog in IPO ?


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Max, I liked watching this. Did you teach position before focus?
> 
> C'est bon!!


 
Thanks Gillian.

I do position and focus at the same time but keep the 2 separate untill the dog show some proficiency in both, than I start working them together with the leash.

When the dog is doing good with the leash I start working him free, trying to make him think as much as possible to make sure it really understand the meaning of each command.

Happy training

Max


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

Sami Kiiveri said:


> Thanks for shearing that one!
> Are you going to trial that dog in IPO ?[/quote
> 
> Yes, that is the plan.
> ...


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Really enjoyed that, thanks for sharing.


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

maggie fraser said:


> Really enjoyed that, thanks for sharing.


You are welcome Maggie.

Duke is a good boy, but not an easy one to control and do obedience with.

Happy training

Max


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Max Orsi said:


> And part deux
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEE_OewyEPI



Max,

I really liked both parts of the video.
I think it would help to show a wider view where we could see your head position while the dog is maintaining focus and position.
See what kind of cues you're using


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Max, I once read that positioning should be done before focusing. It figures, I guess.

I have a dog that is always in the expectant state and had to make sure he swivelled his backside in. Maybe I should have spent more time on position as focus was no problem.

The younger dog has absolutely no problem with positioning, focus is harder with him.

I think there are two types of dogs, ones that position without effort and ones that take more effort.

When I first started Schutzhund, Pablo Körbelbach was described to me as a difficult dog to do obedience with but I never saw him being worked. His owner is a member of our club but doesn't often come now. He is the one working with Raiser on the "6 hour Schutzhund" DVD with Chicco von der Fasanerie, Jürg Wullschleger.


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

The malinois in the video is the hardest dog to do ob I have ever owned, I just decided to worki him because I like his temperament, very dominant confident dog, always ready to fight and quick to pick up any challenges.

The control is hard because he is totally insensitive to corrections and if over stimulated he tries to fight me too.

I just have to keep him motivated by rewarding, using the prong or electric as a prelude to reward.

What he gives me in the protection is worth the extra work on the obedience.

Happy training

Max


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

Gillian this summer I will be in europe for a few months, maybe we can spend some time together training.


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Max,
> 
> I really liked both parts of the video.
> I think it would help to show a wider view where we could see your head position while the dog is maintaining focus and position.
> See what kind of cues you're using


There is really nothing to see Thomas, the dog is looking in my eyes, so I use them to pull and push the dog position during turns and about turns by anticipating by half a step.

Hapy training

Max


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Max Orsi said:


> Gillian this summer I will be in europe for a few months, maybe we can spend some time together training.


Pity the group in Zürich has split up - you would have enjoyed it. Now I'm back in my local club. 

Where are you going to be?

Don't forget Swiss and German laws on pronging and tacking!


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Max Orsi said:


> There is really nothing to see Thomas, the dog is looking in my eyes, so I use them to pull and push the dog position during turns and about turns by anticipating by half a step.
> 
> Hapy training
> 
> Max


I am not experienced in the art of dog training, but I understand this well from training horses...eyes and strong mental energy and connection Max ?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Max Orsi said:


> There is really nothing to see Thomas, the dog is looking in my eyes, so I use them to pull and push the dog position during turns and about turns by anticipating by half a step.
> 
> Hapy training
> 
> Max


Hi Max

What is your head doing at this time? Are you looking straight ahead or toward your feet? Are you looking to the sides before your turns etc. I have trouble getting a proper
FCI about turn (get pointed for U turn or too slow) The foot work shown in the vid helped but I'm curious what kind of 
head cue you're giving, if any. God help me if they ever require chewing gum while heeling


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

maggie fraser said:


> I am not experienced in the art of dog training, but I understand this well from training horses...eyes and strong mental energy and connection Max ?


Right Maggie, as well as body comunication, first of all being relaxed and trying to comunicate not only with the tone of the voice but with your all body your feelings to the dog.

Happy training


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Hi Max
> 
> What is your head doing at this time? Are you looking straight ahead or toward your feet? Are you looking to the sides before your turns etc. I have trouble getting a proper
> FCI about turn (get pointed for U turn or too slow) The foot work shown in the vid helped but I'm curious what kind of
> head cue you're giving, if any. God help me if they ever require chewing gum while heeling


I am looking straight ahead when going straight and side stepping, turn my head and eyes on the side I am going to be turning half a step ahead, just as when you are walking without the dog, just make it evident for the dog.

The most important thing to remember is to give the dog a chance to see if the position after turns, about turns, side steps and regular heeling is correct by stopping and giving the dog a point of reference, a straight vertical leg, left or right is not important, mark when correct but don't reward if the dog needs help to find it. Reward only when the dog can perform alone the correct execution that is expected.

Don't start by setting expectations so high for the execution that are impossible or too hard for the dog to achieve.

The more successfull the dog becomes the higher you can set the espectations of the behaviour.

Happy training


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Max Orsi said:


> I am looking straight ahead when going straight and side stepping, turn my head and eyes on the side I am going to be turning half a step ahead, just as when you are walking without the dog, just make it evident for the dog.
> 
> The most important thing to remember is to give the dog a chance to see if the position after turns, about turns, side steps and regular heeling is correct by stopping and giving the dog a point of reference, a straight vertical leg, left or right is not important, mark when correct but don't reward if the dog needs help to find it. Reward only when the dog can perform alone the correct execution that is expected.
> 
> ...


Thanks Max, good stuff....


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> Thanks Max, good stuff....


Any time!

Happy training

Max


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Max Orsi said:


> The malinois in the video is the hardest dog to do ob I have ever owned, I just decided to worki him because I like his temperament, very dominant confident dog, always ready to fight and quick to pick up any challenges.
> 
> The control is hard because he is totally insensitive to corrections and if over stimulated he tries to fight me too.
> 
> ...





> The control is hard because he is totally insensitive to corrections and if over stimulated he tries to fight me too.
> 
> 
> > Hi Max,
> ...


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

Candy Eggert said:


> > The control is hard because he is totally insensitive to corrections and if over stimulated he tries to fight me too.
> >
> >
> > > Hi Max,
> > ...


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Max Orsi said:


> Candy Eggert said:
> 
> 
> > > The control is hard because he is totally insensitive to corrections and if over stimulated he tries to fight me too.
> ...


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

The negative stimulus was so subtle I had to go back and watch your videos again to see it. I couldn't quite hear it on video...you marked the behavior and then pop on the pinch? 

Again thanks for sharing ;-)[/quote]

yes, mark, pop and reward.

Happy training


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I enjoyed this thread Max. Watching you work with this dog is like turning the pages in a story, it's very clear. I also find the attitude of your dog rather complimentary - as in a perfect fit and in harmony with your style of training. Very well done. I like your dog and what you are doing with him.


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

Thanks Nicole, I am glad you enjoyed the video.

Happy training

Max


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Max Orsi said:


> Thanks Nicole, I am glad you enjoyed the video.
> 
> Happy training
> 
> Max


Max

I enjoyed the video and the explanations. Especially the idea of SLOWING things down. My heeling and position had always been taught based on the movement of the left FOOT. What I noticed on the video was when you kept your left foot planted and stepped back and forth with your right foot the dog stayed with the left HIP and maintained better
over all position.
Also, hesitating after the turns so the dog can get a clear of where he should be, helps. I'm waiting for your training DVD
series


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Max
> 
> I enjoyed the video and the explanations. Especially the idea of SLOWING things down. )


Thomas, that's also the perspective I had of it. I volunteered to train a club dog last winter. Before beginning I studied her for a little while and decided to work with her in almost exactly the same fashion that Max showed in the video. The dog responded very well to this approach. For me it was training that just felt good, no conflict, no fighting, or any of that mess. I thought Max's video illustrated that pretty well. It's certainly not an earth shattering or new concept but one I don't feel is fully appreciated or capitalized upon by newer handlers.


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Max
> 
> I enjoyed the video and the explanations. Especially the idea of SLOWING things down. My heeling and position had always been taught based on the movement of the left FOOT. What I noticed on the video was when you kept your left foot planted and stepped back and forth with your right foot the dog stayed with the left HIP and maintained better
> over all position.
> ...


My training techniques are "top secret" Thomas, If I made a DVD I would have to kill anyone who watches it!!

Glad the videos and explanations helped.

This week end I will make a video of a female mal I have been working since 7 weeks old (Thanks Michael Ellis for the awesome girl), now under 2 Y/O much more advanced, just to give an idea of the finished result (even dog trining is never finished)

Happy training

Max


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