# Teaching Sch Tracking Without Food



## Chelsea Foster (Jun 3, 2008)

I was wondering if anyone has any methods of teaching tracking without using food. The way that I was taught was to use food in the foot steps. I have been considering doing both French Ring and Schuzthund. I currently do FR with my GSD and want to start Sch. Of course if I am doing FR I can not incourage her eating food off the ground. Any suggestions would be helpful.

Thanks in advance

Chelsea


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

You've read my mind, I was wondering if that is possible too. Very interested to hear the responses as well  How do people that title in multi sports deal with the conflict of one excersize vs. the other?


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## Andy Larrimore (Jan 8, 2008)

Start with a spray bottle and place a sock in it. One that has not been cleaned. You want it to have a lot of odor. Fill the bottle with warm water and let it sit over night. As you lay your track spray it with the bottle. This will make the scent overwhelming to the dog. Start in a straight line not a puppy cirlce. Place a tug or favorite toy at the end. Make sure the toy is saturated with the spray bottle. When the dog reaches the end give lots of praise and play. As the dog progressess add turns and eventually wean off of the bottle. This works GREAT on hard surface tracking too.


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## Chelsea Foster (Jun 3, 2008)

Thanks for the suggestion!!! I will give that a try.


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Andy Larrimore said:


> Start with a spray bottle and place a sock in it. One that has not been cleaned. You want it to have a lot of odor. Fill the bottle with warm water and let it sit over night. As you lay your track spray it with the bottle. This will make the scent overwhelming to the dog. Start in a straight line not a puppy cirlce. Place a tug or favorite toy at the end. Make sure the toy is saturated with the spray bottle. When the dog reaches the end give lots of praise and play. As the dog progressess add turns and eventually wean off of the bottle. This works GREAT on hard surface tracking too.


I have read about that method before... Two questions. How do you get the dog to go nose down footprint to footprint rather than just airscent? How do you keep him from rushing through to the very end (under the impression sch likes the precise and methodical tracking)?


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## Andy Larrimore (Jan 8, 2008)

I always begin with a german tracking harness. It works by using the dogs momentum to pull the nose to the ground. This imprints nose to ground type tracking. I also keep the spray bottle withing a few inches of the ground when I spray it. This keeps the scent from drifting and holds it to the foot print. If the dog tries to drift left or right from the track I gentley go the other directions keeping the dog on the track. After a few weeks the dog learns only to stay on the track and to keep his nose down. THe method works well. :-D


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## Chelsea Foster (Jun 3, 2008)

Andy Larrimore said:


> I always begin with a german tracking harness. It works by using the dogs momentum to pull the nose to the ground.


Where can I buy one of these harnesses?


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I started a couple of dogs in tracking by just double laying a track (walk down it, then turn around and come back on the same track) and leaving a toy at the end. This was actually for AKC, but it worked. I didn't get the footstep - footstep style of tracking that Sch wants, but I did get dogs who knew how to track, loved it, and would get from point A to point B. 

But I wouldn't do it that way for Sch, I'd just use food on the track. I have tracked with almost every dog I've also done FR with, and it's never been a problem. They know the difference between a track that has been laid with food on it, and food on the FR field. Just like they know the difference between me tossing them a treat in the kitchen at home, and me tossing food at them for the food refusal on the FR field. You may want to reinforce the "no eating on the FR field" concept a few times while you start the Sch tracking training, but overall I haven't run into any problems doing both at the same time.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I watched my little pup and saw that he always had his nose to the ground. We'd speak to a neighbour and she'd disappear and little B would have his nose to the ground trying to follow her. Out walking, he'd sniff at a track (I could see the flattening of the grass) and wanted to follow it. When he was loose, if he missed me my husband would notice that he didn't look around, just put his nose to the ground and off he went 'til he was with me.

This prompted me to wait a while and then at 5 months I tied him to a tree out of sight. Laid a small track without food and brought him to the start. My idea was, if he doens't react, walk on, if he reacts follow him. At the end of the track I placed a little tub with a bit of food in it. This way I'd know what was "in him".

OK, I sauntered up to the start, pup put nose down and off he went, with me following, with open mouth, drooling.

I would like to say that this could have gone on for ever but I wasn't experienced enough, I think. Today, I put food down because this pup got quicker and quicker and quicker. I solved it with feeding him up to the track and letting him start with a loose lead, just cautioning if he got too quick. A more experienced tracking handler could have crarried on I think.

Years ago, we started off like this and it worked. My dog doesn't need food on the track to motivate it but I need it.[-X


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Although I've never done the food refusal as they do in French ring, I agree with Kadi that tracking with food has nothing to do with trained food refusal. That is specific to a particular situation where the dog is on a down command where they know not to touch anything. Tracking with food is with permission. In particular, in the beginning the food will have your scent on it.


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## Patrick Cheatham (Apr 10, 2006)

So for those who use food...... do you eventually stop using it? Or do you just stop for a period before you compete?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I never stop random use of food for tracking training. Sometimes just in the starting square. Sometimes not for 4-5-10-15-30 etc paces. I rarely do the actual trial patterns. Everything is kept random to keep the dog from getting to smart/bored. 
I also like to mix up what food I use. Seems to keep the dog on it's toes wondering what's next. 
I've mentioned it before but get yourself a section of 1 1/2 inch diamiter PVC pipe. Dropping the food into your foot print through the PVC sure beats all that dern bending over.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Is it possible to teach this without food by teaching the dog to actually look for the article?


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Patrick Cheatham said:


> So for those who use food...... do you eventually stop using it? Or do you just stop for a period before you compete?


I never stop using it 100%, but I do vary things. For example, when I was getting JaJa ready to trial for her SchI, I would lay a track that was twice as long as the SchI track. Her first food reward didn't come until she'd already completed the SchI length, shortly after that she found a jackpot. So in trial, she's used to the idea of tracking for quite awhile before finding any reward, in trial she'll be done with the track before she starts thinking "hey, where is my reward" I also end each track with a play session with a toy, or a large food jackpot (depending on the dog) so they are driven to stick to it until they get to the end.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Lyn Chen said:


> Is it possible to teach this without food by teaching the dog to actually look for the article?


 
Lyn, if you teach the dog to just look for the article it will start air scenting. I taught air scent for articles before I taught FST. It created problems I had to work through with the FST.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

My pup did a track of about 10-12 yards, no food laid, just a little plastic box with a bit of food in it at the end to mark it.

He couldn't see the track beforehand. I wandered up to it and watched how he reacted - he put his nose down and then he followed it to the end, nose down. I followed, jaw dropped and praised him. Had he not taken up the track I would have carried on walking with him. I wanted to see what was "there", as when we met someone and they walked away, he put his little nose down and tried to follow them, not with his eyes.

The thing is with such natural trackers, you have to match it and I couldn't. My husband noticed that when i walked away from him in the woods, he never looked round, just nosed and followed. That's why I did what I did. 

My dog tracks because he loves tracking. The articles are a means to an end which I have included. But, I let him go too quickly and have now resorted to food (not smelly) on the track to slow him down. I also correct too fast tracking, it doesn't bother him, he knows from other disciplines what "slow down" means.

I didn't experiment with the younger one as I didn't think he was a natural tracker and I think he could get better results in the end. If I live long enough, or my dog doesn't, and I get another chance with a natural tracker, I will try without food. I find natural trackers are easier to correct. Who agrees?

Some say "why should the dogs track without reward". In actual fact, I think tracking *should be* the reward but I have to admit it's not easy to control.

It would be extremely interesting to know from experienced trackers, how to proceed with a natural tracking pup.


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## Dillon Benda (Aug 26, 2008)

I dont know much about fr but i knew a gut that was doing some akc stuff and he really was trying to emphasize the end of the track and he started a pretty natural tracker with no food he just put a reward at the end. his dog didnt do the foot print thing and sort of tracked with his head high. hoever there are a lot of sch dogs that dont search each foot print either. one thing we used to do with dogs that wanted to stop and circle around when they found food is we would put some watter in a baggie with some hamburger or other meat and then poke a hole in it with a needle. then drag that behind you to kind of have some food smell with the track. prolly wouldnt want to do it too long so he doesnt just follow the food smell but it might be a way to get him to the reward the first couple of times and maybe it would get him started with his head down.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

AKC isn't as anal as Schutzhund about staying FS to FS or perfect 90 degree corners. 
Many of the "old timers" started teaching tracking with a piece of meat on a drag. It works but I prefer to keep the food scent in contact with the disturbed ground. JMHO! Lots of ways to do it!


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Many of the "old timers" started teaching tracking with a piece of meat on a drag. It works but I prefer to keep the food scent in contact with the disturbed ground.


Interesting, that way was suggested to me by a police dog trainer, as means of imprinting puppies. "Just drag a piece of chicken through the house, bring in the puppy and show him where the trail starts..." Whatever works, I guess.


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## Michael Breton (Aug 25, 2008)

I teach tracking with food and still do food refusal. Each is taught with a separate command.

The tracking is on the command "sook" and the dog knows put his nose to the ground and look for goodies in the footsteps.

Ivan B. showed me how to teach the food refusal and I always use a command to tell him when I walk away don't touch or take food from anyone until I come back and release you. It’s not just food on the ground; you always set the dog up on the field, command "refuse" and walk away.

Either I'm a great trainer or my dog is just smart enough to know the difference. I'm siding with the dog as the only thing great about me is my love of parmesan cheese. As I've seen U run into my boat trailer chasing a tennis ball, I doubt he is smarter than most other dogs. Especially after he hit his head.

To me the dog knows in this situation when the big guy puts me in a down and says "refuse" I am supposed to stay put and not touch food. After he comes back and picks me up, he'll pay me when we get off the field. Give the dogs some credit.

I have heard the same logic when people say if you put your dog near your backpack he'll think its a guard the object and bite anyone who goes near it. It doesn't fly with me I didn't tell him "guard". I've tried it; he could care less about the backpack. Tell him to guard and game on.

I'd like to hear other experiences about the dog making judgment calls about food or guarding without prompting with a cue. 

It kind of reminds me of the time a trainer asked me to bang on my chest and call his dog up on me so he could correct it for jumping on me. I asked him if he would correct his dog for sitting after I told the dog to sit. He said no it was following a command. I then asked him what was the difference. He didn't get, but I'm sure his dog did. If the dog gets a fair, valid command he understands he'll do it.

Michael


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## Lisa Preston (Aug 21, 2008)

Sch tracking absolutely can be done sans food.

My last tracker *wouldn't* track for food...it's just waaaaay down on his priority list...and no, it wasn't because he wasn't hungry. He's a guy who came to me way underweight (62 pounds...now lean and muscled at about 90) and didn't eat for the first five days I had him. When I started his tracking training, I set a baited little track and he went right over the food, never ate a morsel. Again. And again. After a week of puzzling on this, I just taught him to down at articles and he and I were happy enough with that. 

I'm no great shakes as a trainer-not a great handler either-but he did V score at his first try. The judge and tracklayer said his track was much harder than the IIIs that trialed that morning, too. 

Article were his place to get praise, his only reason to be there, so the AKC pre-cert was a little scary...completely blind for me (you know how you can often see the track, at least in parts, on many fields selected for Sch trials? I saw nothing on the ground at that AKC pre-cert--nothing!). Many loooooooong legs and turns before he finally dropped on a glove but he'd been right on the track all along.

Had a previous dog who did do foot step training on baited tracks and was also trained for food refusal (instead of having a command to tell him to refuse food he had a command to tell him it was okay to eat-he only ate w/ command).


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## Alyssa Myracle (Aug 4, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> I've mentioned it before but get yourself a section of 1 1/2 inch diamiter PVC pipe. Dropping the food into your foot print through the PVC sure beats all that dern bending over.


Holy crap.
Why in dogs name have I never thought of this.

Well, after 200 some-odd years of dog training, I guess you learn a thing or two, eh Bob?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

200 odd years + a bad back makes ya a bit smarter sooner or later. :wink:
I learned the pvc thing about 20 yrs ago. Never have figured out why it hasn't become more common with FST. :-k


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## Catalina Valencia (Feb 20, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> I've mentioned it before but get yourself a section of 1 1/2 inch diamiter PVC pipe. Dropping the food into your foot print through the PVC sure beats all that dern bending over.


Cr*p!! I needed to read this yesterday!! Now the back of my tighs hurt because of all the bending. And I always carry some of those in my car as part of my home-made jumps!!


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## Michael Breton (Aug 25, 2008)

I use the those cheap plastic tubes you use to seperate golf clubs in a golf bag. <1.00 and the perfect height.


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## Willaim Somers (Jan 17, 2009)

A few people here have given you good advise as far as training tracking without food, but I don't think you are going to get a nice fs to fs style that way. I think it's possible but not worth the effort. Transfer of a skill form one environment to another is something taught in working dogs it is not inherant however...that is to say that if my dog will do a reliable down for 10 min on the trial feild that will not nessesarily transfer over to my living room! Dogs understand the difference between refusal in the ring and SCH tracking in the feild, they are two totaly different circumstances, like her food in a bowl [ the tracking feild ] and her food still in the bag[ the ring ] hope that helps.


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

As a newbie, I had a very hard time trying to remember where the serpentine track was laid, the direction I was going, and to carefully put food in the tracks. 

I attended a seminar and asked the question about putting the food in the footstep. They guy giving the seminar said you can do that if you want but it does not make much difference to the dog. He added that he himself was too lazy to do that so he just drops it in front of him as he is walking along. I quit worrying over having to drop it in the footstep from that point forward. I found that I covered 3 times as much ground in the same amount of time, had an easier time remembering where I laid my track as well as an easier time laying it in the first place. I don't think it matters one bit to the dog. From that point forward my dog made tremendous progress and I felt a lot more sure about what I was doing.


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

There is a classic story that gets retold every work week at our club. Someone even did a cartoon of the event and it is posted on the wall of our clubhouse. Our TD was doing a tracking seminar in Southern California. This somewhat obese lady shows up and asks if she can lay a track. She gets the go-ahead and sits down on the grass, and starts dragging her ass across the ground, "laying" the track. She pulls out a bag with her "tracking articles" and lays those. Can anyone guess what the articles may have been?

My TD says he has not done a seminar in California since.


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## Michelle Kutelis (Sep 28, 2006)

Steve Burger said:


> There is a classic story that gets retold every work week at our club. Someone even did a cartoon of the event and it is posted on the wall of our clubhouse. Our TD was doing a tracking seminar in Southern California. This somewhat obese lady shows up and asks if she can lay a track. She gets the go-ahead and sits down on the grass, and starts dragging her ass across the ground, "laying" the track. She pulls out a bag with her "tracking articles" and lays those. Can anyone guess what the articles may have been?
> 
> My TD says he has not done a seminar in California since.


This story has been floating around California, also, for the six years we've been here. I was starting to wonder if it was a Schutzhund Urban Legend, as EVERYONE has heard it. Guess it's really true!!


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

Kyle Nunn told me about it the first work week I attended. I was saying "no way" and Lance Collins who is my TD elaborated on it further. There were more details including identifying the person, but I don't want to add more.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Steve Burger said:


> As a newbie, I had a very hard time trying to remember where the serpentine track was laid, the direction I was going, and to carefully put food in the tracks.
> 
> I attended a seminar and asked the question about putting the food in the footstep. They guy giving the seminar said you can do that if you want but it does not make much difference to the dog. He added that he himself was too lazy to do that so he just drops it in front of him as he is walking along. I quit worrying over having to drop it in the footstep from that point forward. I found that I covered 3 times as much ground in the same amount of time, had an easier time remembering where I laid my track as well as an easier time laying it in the first place. I don't think it matters one bit to the dog. From that point forward my dog made tremendous progress and I felt a lot more sure about what I was doing.


 
Funny you mention that...I went to a seminar. And I have not had the balls to try this. But the person giving the seminar said it's benefical to put some of the food in between the footsteps. his reasoning was that some dog need the added help to link one footstep to another. He claimed problems that arise are because the dog does not nowhere to expect the next footstep to be. And by placing food between the step sometimes leads them to another step. 

Any comments on that theory?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

James Downey said:


> Funny you mention that...I went to a seminar. And I have not had the balls to try this. But the person giving the seminar said it's benefical to put some of the food in between the footsteps. his reasoning was that some dog need the added help to link one footstep to another. He claimed problems that arise are because the dog does not nowhere to expect the next footstep to be. And by placing food between the step sometimes leads them to another step.
> 
> Any comments on that theory?


When starting out training the track should be narrower and a bit closer together. Lengthened as training improves. Some even drag their feet in the beginning to create "rails". That eliminates any need for food outside the prints. You want the dog to associate the disturbed grass/soil with the reward, the space in between the foot steps shouldn't be rewarded. JMHO!
A lot of old timers would just tie a piece of meat on a rope and drag it behind them. 
I've heard of one trainer that takes pups for a walk and just drops food as he walks along. Imprinting the footsteps with reward.
Both could work but in sport tracking the dog eventually needs to learn to search each actual foot step for high scores. 
There are as many methods to tracking as there are trainers. 
Did I say that I dislike FST? :lol: :lol:


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## Calvin Ledford (Apr 15, 2009)

There is a lot of misunderstanding about Schutzhund tracking - mainly because the word "tracking” has many different meanings to many different people and most don't take the time to find out what it means related to the sport of Schutzhund. Schutzhund tracking is NOT about tracking or trailing, not in the classic sense – which I think most would agree means “finding a guy.” In Schutzhund, the “guy” (who laid the track) very often will be standing near you at the start of the exercise and often might even walk the track with you. If it was about “finding the guy” the dog would fail miserably. Schutzhund tracking is *specifically* about find the remnants of “the guys” passage through a designated area. ALL the remnants of his passage – which would be EVERY foot step and any articles he’s left behind. In Schutzhund tracking there is not “a” track. If I lay a track that is 300 meters long, it takes about 150 paces, or 300 individual footsteps. Add in the articles and a scent-pad and there are 303 individual remnants of my passage through the area – I expect my dog to find each and *every one.* Finding and/or following “a” track means nothing to me, finding 303 “individual” indications of my passage through a given area means a lot.

Why the long explanation? Because to train for something you need to understand what it is you really want to accomplish, then determine what the most effective means to teach the dog what is expected is. There is absolutely no better way to teach Schutzhund tracking than with food in footsteps. This is because (again) you are not “tracking,” you are finding a series (303 for a Schutzhund 1 track) of disturbances to an otherwise un-altered area. Food teaches the dog where and why the areas YOU are interested in should be interesting to it. The food rewards the dog, helps it discriminate between important things (areas of disturbed vegetation) and areas not of interest. It reinforces correct behavior, keeps the dogs head down and most importantly motivates the dog to do something completely contrary to its nature. Why all of this? Because the bottom line is that it is near impossible to teach Schutzhund “tracking” without food and even if you are successful technically, I couldn’t imagine you being successful in a competitive way. 

Bottom line, it is a very admirable goal to try to do both sports, but probably not the best idea. I’m been training in the sport (Schutzhund) for almost 5 years and barely have the time and energy to ensure my dogs is competitively prepared for all exercises in all 3 disciplines. I can’t imagine trying to not only balance 1 sport, but two. Especially when the differences between the two will likely lead to issues in the other that have to be worked/trained through. Add in that based on your question about the food refusal (which can pretty easily be trained regardless of how your dog is taught to track) shows that you are probably new to the game. I mean no disrespect by saying this, but point it out as there is a HUGE learning curve in at least Schutzhund and I assume a similar one in ring as well. You’ll have more than you hands full preparing for one sport as a green handler, you should really consider picking one or the other.

-Calvin


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## Calvin Ledford (Apr 15, 2009)

James Downey said:


> Funny you mention that...I went to a seminar. And I have not had the balls to try this. But the person giving the seminar said it's benefical to put some of the food in between the footsteps. his reasoning was that some dog need the added help to link one footstep to another. He claimed problems that arise are because the dog does not nowhere to expect the next footstep to be. And by placing food between the step sometimes leads them to another step.
> 
> Any comments on that theory?


 
This is the worst idea I've heard. The food is used to teach the dog that areas of *disturbed* ground are of interest and to find them. It is actually very difficult to even space 2 footsteps far enough to be a huge challenge to a dog - even when jumping you can get what, 6 feet from one to another? That creates a 12 foot diameter circle for the dog to search to find the next foot step if you are really challenging it. The idea s that food in the footstep encourages the dog to fid them. I would think that dropping food not in the footsteps would seriously confuse the dog.

Just curious, what had the person giving the seminar ever achieve in the sport? I.e. any dogs titled? (Scores?) Ever compete at regional, national or international level?

-Calvin


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Ok, I have read most of this, and I think the whole idea that food on the ground will encourage the dog to eat it in FR or MR is pretty much crap.

When the food is on the ground in MR the dog is supposed to be looking for the decoy. If the food means more to the dog than the decoy, then you probably do not have a dog that is gonna make it to the point where the food is on the ground.

E-collars are a wonderful solution to the "occasional" hey there is some food !!! Just blast the ever loving snot out of them and have the decoy attract and that should solve the problem.

Dogs are fairly situational, so I just don't see this as a problem......except why the heck would you want to do Sch ????


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Calvin Ledford said:


> This is the worst idea I've heard. The food is used to teach the dog that areas of *disturbed* ground are of interest and to find them. It is actually very difficult to even space 2 footsteps far enough to be a huge challenge to a dog - even when jumping you can get what, 6 feet from one to another? That creates a 12 foot diameter circle for the dog to search to find the next foot step if you are really challenging it. The idea s that food in the footstep encourages the dog to fid them. I would think that dropping food not in the footsteps would seriously confuse the dog.
> 
> Just curious, what had the person giving the seminar ever achieve in the sport? I.e. any dogs titled? (Scores?) Ever compete at regional, national or international level?
> 
> -Calvin


The person givning the seminar, had won 1 FCI worlds and 3rd in another. 2 different dogs.

His comments were that in FST the space in between each step is just as important as the steps themselves. He said sometimes dogs may start running one side of the track , This keeps their head moving side to side leading into the next step or they get hectic if the lose the track...he said this helps in especially bad conditions. This is all done well after the dog has associated the scent of crushed grass with the food. The dog will still be intrigued to follow the scent of crushed grass...since it has paid out in the past, Just because thier is now food in between in the steps does not lessen the value of the steps.. smelling the scent leading to the foot step may have value. So to speak, the smell of a little crushed grass leading to a heavier smell of crushedgrass means your on the right path. In between steps are not devoid of scent...it's just not as heavy. And he said fading this help is also very important but keeping the dogs nose down and in the direction of the next foot step is important in the "negative" areas of the track. 

I have been reluctant to try it, for reasons you mentioned.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

I also was told at a seminar to not worry about food in foot steps, to just throw it down as you walk at a normal pace. That the dog will understand that the sent of the disturbed grass/food is all over the track, while stronger at each step, the goal is to keep the nose on the ground and not lift between steps. No up and down stuff. It was contrary to everything I've learned about tracking up to that point. This guy is from Germany, won many titles and is currently Mr. Big in Canada SchH.


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## Calvin Ledford (Apr 15, 2009)

James Downey said:


> The person givning the seminar, had won 1 FCI worlds and 3rd in another. 2 different dogs.




I can't argue with creds like that - but still doesn't make sense to me. If the dog is working on a single side of a track (say every left footstep) the footsteps are too far apart for its present level of training. it is easier (sounds like I’m preaching to the choir anyhow...) to reduce the distance between the steps to make the same point. What I found best was keep the steps (front to rear) fairly close, and slowly widening the left to right gap first. This *really* promoted moving the head foot step to footstep. Then I began to reduce the "width" (side to side distance of footsteps) of the track, but began to extend the length of each step to a normal stride distance. It helped a lot. The side to side working of the head was now ingrained as a habit and the dog learned the natural rhythm of the frequency (distance between steps) and dispersion (width of track) of a normal pace.

I guess my big argument with the guys theory is that excluding *very* windy conditions, the scent of the crushed vegetation hangs like a fog over the whole track, I like to visualize each step as a little mini-cloud of scent. This is why tracks not aged enough can actually promote casting and less accuracy, the area of intense odor is as wide or wider than the track its self – the clouds run into each other and form a continuous tunnel. (My dog actually tracks better on aged tracks, each foot step is more distinct) Any air current caused by sunlight heating ground, shade receding, slope of terrain, etc. is going to lead the scent to "flow" even more. I think of the food as a reward for discerning the *strongest* area of scent, which would be the actual footstep. If it has a value of 100 (out of 100), even on a too fresh track (when even the area between might be 95-97 on a humid morning) I would only want to reward the dog for focusing and finding the 100s. The 95 might lead you to reward, but isn't going to reward you, only indicate that reward is near. Then again I'm nowhere near this guys credentials.

Cool discussion.

-Calvin


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Calvin Ledford said:


> I can't argue with creds like that - but still doesn't make sense to me. If the dog is working on a single side of a track (say every left footstep) the footsteps are too far apart for its present level of training. it is easier (sounds like I’m preaching to the choir anyhow...) to reduce the distance between the steps to make the same point. What I found best was keep the steps (front to rear) fairly close, and slowly widening the left to right gap first. This *really* promoted moving the head foot step to footstep. Then I began to reduce the "width" (side to side distance of footsteps) of the track, but began to extend the length of each step to a normal stride distance. It helped a lot. The side to side working of the head was now ingrained as a habit and the dog learned the natural rhythm of the frequency (distance between steps) and dispersion (width of track) of a normal pace.
> 
> I guess my big argument with the guys theory is that excluding *very* windy conditions, the scent of the crushed vegetation hangs like a fog over the whole track, I like to visualize each step as a little mini-cloud of scent. This is why tracks not aged enough can actually promote casting and less accuracy, the area of intense odor is as wide or wider than the track its self – the clouds run into each other and form a continuous tunnel. (My dog actually tracks better on aged tracks, each foot step is more distinct) Any air current caused by sunlight heating ground, shade receding, slope of terrain, etc. is going to lead the scent to "flow" even more. I think of the food as a reward for discerning the *strongest* area of scent, which would be the actual footstep. If it has a value of 100 (out of 100), even on a too fresh track (when even the area between might be 95-97 on a humid morning) I would only want to reward the dog for focusing and finding the 100s. The 95 might lead you to reward, but isn't going to reward you, only indicate that reward is near. Then again I'm nowhere near this guys credentials.
> 
> ...


 
I share your concerns and theories. I just wanted to know others thoughts...


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Calvin Ledford said:


> I can't argue with creds like that - but still doesn't make sense to me. If the dog is working on a single side of a track (say every left footstep) the footsteps are too far apart for its present level of training. it is easier (sounds like I’m preaching to the choir anyhow...) to reduce the distance between the steps to make the same point. What I found best was keep the steps (front to rear) fairly close, and slowly widening the left to right gap first. This *really* promoted moving the head foot step to footstep. Then I began to reduce the "width" (side to side distance of footsteps) of the track, but began to extend the length of each step to a normal stride distance. It helped a lot. The side to side working of the head was now ingrained as a habit and the dog learned the natural rhythm of the frequency (distance between steps) and dispersion (width of track) of a normal pace.
> 
> I guess my big argument with the guys theory is that excluding *very* windy conditions, the scent of the crushed vegetation hangs like a fog over the whole track, I like to visualize each step as a little mini-cloud of scent. This is why tracks not aged enough can actually promote casting and less accuracy, the area of intense odor is as wide or wider than the track its self – the clouds run into each other and form a continuous tunnel. (My dog actually tracks better on aged tracks, each foot step is more distinct) Any air current caused by sunlight heating ground, shade receding, slope of terrain, etc. is going to lead the scent to "flow" even more. I think of the food as a reward for discerning the *strongest* area of scent, which would be the actual footstep. If it has a value of 100 (out of 100), even on a too fresh track (when even the area between might be 95-97 on a humid morning) I would only want to reward the dog for focusing and finding the 100s. The 95 might lead you to reward, but isn't going to reward you, only indicate that reward is near. Then again I'm nowhere near this guys credentials.
> 
> ...


 
Well said!


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Edward Egan said:


> I also was told at a seminar to not worry about food in foot steps, to just throw it down as you walk at a normal pace. That the dog will understand that the sent of the disturbed grass/food is all over the track, while stronger at each step, the goal is to keep the nose on the ground and not lift between steps. No up and down stuff. It was contrary to everything I've learned about tracking up to that point. This guy is from Germany, won many titles and is currently Mr. Big in Canada SchH.


I "had" a natural tracker but because of lack of experience, I was in danger of ruining him and he was going too fast.

I do not put food in each footstep because I feel this will cause a completely unnatural track "walkwise". If anyone can do this competently, ok. I do as Edward described. I drop (not throw) the food in front of me and tread on it. This ensures normal walking, at first close steps and afterwards longer ones.

Jumping will cause more disturbance in the earth and could confuse the dog.

There's probably no "one" way, but do what you are convinced of and it will succeed even if it is the lesser method.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Speaking of high winds, it's been very windy here in Vegas. I'm beginning to believe my dog tracks better with wind that not. I know it seems wierd, but I could swear it is so. I have two ideas to the cause of this. 
1. The aroma is dispersed, only emitting from each step, more of a challenge.

2. The wind causes a higher level of drive. I've noticed this in OB as well.

THoughts on this???


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## Calvin Ledford (Apr 15, 2009)

My dog tracks much better on the worst days. If it is pouring rain and steadily windy she tracks like a machine. In humid, lush or easy conditions she tends to become more lax and make more mistakes. On such days it is hard to let the track age enough as by the time the track has aged 30 minutes or more, the sun is really starting to warm up the ground and we go right back to ground zero with too much scent. While I don't think my dog is anything special from a tracking perspective, I track often at the same field. She has come across tracks 24 or more hours old (say at one end of the field where we'd tracked the day before and are crossing through to leave) and went right back to working them like a champ. I don't even kick the the tracks in. I mention it as I think the dogs have a lot more capacity in them for tracking than we give them credit for as far as the scent goes.

-Calvin


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## Sue DiCero (Sep 2, 2006)

Enzo (husband's dog) did his FH in 30+ mph winds. 96 points. It is almost like he really picked up his game - he a good tracking dog, but that was really cool to watch.

I am going to be working him for his FH2 (I think ;-) ) this year while Hella (my gsd 6 mos old) is growing up and having fun.

Shuold be interesting.........


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Calvin Ledford said:


> My dog tracks much better on the worst days. If it is pouring rain and steadily windy she tracks like a machine. In humid, lush or easy conditions she tends to become more lax and make more mistakes. On such days it is hard to let the track age enough as by the time the track has aged 30 minutes or more, the sun is really starting to warm up the ground and we go right back to ground zero with too much scent. While I don't think my dog is anything special from a tracking perspective, I track often at the same field. She has come across tracks 24 or more hours old (say at one end of the field where we'd tracked the day before and are crossing through to leave) and went right back to working them like a champ. I don't even kick the the tracks in. I mention it as I think the dogs have a lot more capacity in them for tracking than we give them credit for as far as the scent goes.
> 
> -Calvin


I like to go tracking when the weather is windy rainy hot what ever dog doesn't mind I look at it like this if he can track in the worst and keep his points on a nice calm morning he should have little problem.


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## Xavier Neme (Sep 15, 2008)

I recently went to South Metro Atlanta Schutzhund Club to learn how to do tracking with no food with Wallace Payne. It was really interesting so see some top dogs that do not track for food AT ALL. Well... they teach the foundation in the dogs with food, that way they can get the dog to be proficient in sniffing through and following the footsteps. Then, when the dog is mature and tracking well for food, they teach the dogs to track looking for the article itself - with a forced track. And they never use the articles in a track where there is food, they introduce them at the time when the pressure comes.
Does anyone have experience with forced tracks?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

It would be interesting to be able to tell how much actual human scent is left on a windy day. I have always thought that it is the crushed whatever that they are following anyway.

Never done a forced track. Always looked at Sch as a breed suitability test, and the dogs pretty much did whatever it was they were gonna do.

I don't like the idea of a forced track as what the heck am I really looking at ????

THen again, sch is dumb. LOL


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