# urban wolf



## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

I don't remember the thread, but I remember Urban Wolf and Honest Kitchen being discussed as raw food supplements. Anyways, I ordered some and occasionally, when I have time, I make raw meals for my pack. When I'm using it consistently, their coats are remarkably smooth, thick and shiny. Thanks, whoever mentioned it. I really like the product. Dogs are healthy and looking good.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

That would've been me. I really like my Urban Wolf with my dog's RAW.


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

went to their homepgae, which is it? i just saw a"balancer" "fish oil" and soem basefoods for cats and dogs...


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

Kat Hunsecker said:


> went to their homepgae, which is it? i just saw a"balancer" "fish oil" and soem basefoods for cats and dogs...


 duh!!!! never mind...LOL


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

i also use urban wolf been feeding it over 8 yrs now , i love it , all my 8 dogs are on raw now and all of them eat it , coats are amazing and they feel great on it !


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

How long does a 3 LB bag last- or if you use 5 LB bags -how long. 
do you feed it everyday and do you add all the stuff they recomend to add? Like oil cooked egg liver poweder..?!?!?


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Kat Hunsecker said:


> How long does a 3 LB bag last- or if you use 5 LB bags -how long.
> do you feed it everyday and do you add all the stuff they recomend to add? Like oil cooked egg liver poweder..?!?!?


I buy the biggest bag it works out to like $110 retail or so. With 2 dogs it lasts like a year, so it is a good value. 

I don't follow their recommendations either, as my RAW has bone in it. So I adjust accordingly to counter any chance of hypercalcemia. Since Urban Wolf uses egg shell for Calcium Egg Shells are made up of Calcium Carbonate and it not the proper ratio between Calcium and Phosphorous. Dogs need about 900 mg. of calcium per pound of food. So if you do feed RAW meaty bones like I do you have to be mindful of what the calcium phosphorous balance is when you add a product that has Calcium Carbonate. As just feeding RAW meaty bones it doesn't matter they will just defecate the calcium that they do not need from that source. But Calcium Carbonate is a problem as the dog won't expel it like the calcium source from bones. So can get hypercalcemia from Calcium Carbonate. 

Regardless, hypercalcemia is not good, just as hypocalcemia is not good.

I use the Urban Wolf as a vegetable supplement more than anything. I also have some in the car in case I have to buy ground beef on the road than will just follow their directions.


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

Goeff, Thank you that is very helpfull, we do have stretches without bones, since they are hard to come by... other then in chicken but it is not the main diet we feed. Only bones they are getting right now are knuckle bones and I can't feed them very often since they tend to constipate them. The butchers here unfortunatly just like to give away/sell the knuckel and femor bones. rips and such are hard to come by arround here.
So i would need some calcium. I am currently trying to find some bone dust also. Was readyly availlable for me before i moved... but up here not so much.... the old days when greyhounds where still arround, they did all that, but most of the old butchers are gone....
I also shred other vegetables for them.One of my girls has troubles when it get's really cold outside, more meat/fat does not cut it when it get's cold so i do add lots potatoes and occationally oats.
as well as fish etc... 
One big thing I can't get either is green tripe. sometimes i buy it in the can, but that get's spendy. 
Regardless I want the nutrition complete. I had vitamax rawmax, before. but i do believe in roatating products. 
same with periods of adding Seeweed and aloe juice, nutrazinc...
Seems to work better if you don't give it all the time... or just when needed.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Kat Hunsecker said:


> Goeff, Thank you that is very helpfull, we do have stretches without bones, since they are hard to come by... other then in chicken but it is not the main diet we feed. Only bones they are getting right now are knuckle bones and I can't feed them very often since they tend to constipate them. The butchers here unfortunatly just like to give away/sell the knuckel and femor bones. rips and such are hard to come by arround here.
> So i would need some calcium.


You don't want to let this situation happen (stretches without digestible bone) without supplementing calcium. Raw is based on RMBs. If it isn't, then I'd be sure that the calcium needed comes from someplace else.

As Geoff said, the dog needs about 900 mg of calcium per pound of boneless food. You can easily dry and grind eggshells and measure out a half measuring teaspoon to sprinkle over the pound of meat when it's still in a form where you can identify a pound (much easier than trying to weigh bowls full of food).

If an adult dog's raw diet is not approximately a third to a half RMBs* (digestible raw meaty bones, not recreational bones; raw meaty bones are soft enough for your dog to chew and eat completely), then some correctional supplementing is needed.

Of course, if the raw diet IS based on RMBs as described, then you don't add calcium. As Geoff mentioned, neither too much nor too little calcium is good. 





*
A third to a half may sound a little vague, but here is a simple way to further define that: If your RMBs are bonier (like chicken backs and necks), you could make them a third of the adult dog's diet. If they are less bony and more meaty, like chicken quarters or thighs, make them half.

This balance can certainly be over time, rather than meal by meal, but for someone looking for simplicity and very little figuring, making each meal a third to a half RMBs can streamline the food planning.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Kat Hunsecker said:


> .... I also shred other vegetables for them.One of my girls has troubles when it get's really cold outside, more meat/fat does not cut it when it get's cold so i do add lots potatoes and occationally oats.
> as well as fish etc...
> One big thing I can't get either is green tripe. sometimes i buy it in the can, but that get's spendy.
> Regardless I want the nutrition complete. I had vitamax rawmax, before. but i do believe in roatating products.
> same with periods of adding Seeweed and aloe juice, nutrazinc...


Even though there's good stuff here, the ratio of calcium to phosphorus is more important than just about everything else mentioned. 


"Lots of" white potato isn't something I'm a big fan of because it's so high on the G.I. (higher than sugar) and so low in just about every nutrient dogs need. I don't give much in the way of starch carbs, but if you're mainly just seeking cheap extra calories for a dog who already gets sufficient meat and fat, I'd pick cooked oats over cooked potatoes, for a dog who does well with them. Oats are tolerated by more dogs than many other grains (like wheat and corn, for example), and they're high in protein.

I'm with you that produce is good (in small to moderate amounts) for dogs who get no green tripe.

By "troubles" when it's cold, do you mean trouble maintaining body weight?


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Even though there's good stuff here, the ratio of calcium to phosphorus is more important than just about everything else mentioned.
> 
> 
> "Lots of" white potato isn't something I'm a big fan of because it's so high on the G.I. (higher than sugar) and so low in just about every nutrient dogs need. I don't give much in the way of starch carbs, but if you're mainly just seeking cheap extra calories for a dog who already gets sufficient meat and fat, I'd pick cooked oats over cooked potatoes, for a dog who does well with them. Oats are tolerated by more dogs than many other grains (like wheat and corn, for example), and they're high in protein.
> ...


Some things are plain missing in the diet, and this is why I look into supplementing at all.
I base my diet on a German version of B.A.R.F..
Nicely split up in dietary needs of "moms/pups" ,"adults" and seniors. 
I rather have tripe and other intestines/ organs but they are not availlable to me. i do buy liver,kidney etc . but the butchers here do not give up much else...
As for the potatoes i use red potatoes, but it is not a base food. use it when they need extra energy.
As well as the oats, If i need to.
Fruits /herbs/ cottage cheese etc are also on the menu! So Calcuim is coming from other sources...
I try to be complete...
10-20% veggies etc; 80-90% meat/bones (50:50), 
currently running more 70:30 with meat:bones 
so I try to balance this out.


The body weight does not get to the point of underweight, but i do like to keep 1 or 2 pounds more on them then in the summer. Only one dog has a bit trouble with it, but she is very active. And in general needs more food then the others.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

By "white potatoes," I meant the flesh. Actually, I meant all potatoes (including those with red skin) except the ones called "sweet potatoes," which are very different.

I'm confused between _"we do have stretches without bones" _and _"80-90% meat/bones (50:50), currently running more 70:30 with meat:bones." _

Maybe it means that instead of RMBs, you have boneless meat, plus some kind of digestible frames with little or no meat?

But it doesn't matter if I'm confused, as long as you are aware of the need to add calcium as described when the meat doesn't have digestible bones ....


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

over a period of a week -overall we have 70% meat to 30% bones, which im like to be 50% meat to 50% bones.
To the meat i add 10-20 percent veggies/fruit... not everyday, but it will be weekly monthly always be 10-20 percent of the diet.
Yes, there are days without bones... so only meat!! ... so for the days without bones, i add Calcium.different sources.
The supplement i want to use should cover other minerals and vitamins that might get amiss...
Supplemnts that are made of natural ingredients as e.g sea kelp, blueberry etc are my preference.
This is why urban wolf looked appealing to me.
And if I can balance it out as needed even better... My current supplements run like this also...


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> By "white potatoes," I meant the flesh. Actually, I meant all potatoes (including those with red skin) except the ones called "sweet potatoes," which are very different.
> 
> I'm confused between _"we do have stretches without bones" _and _"80-90% meat/bones (50:50), currently running more 70:30 with meat:bones." _
> 
> ...


Yes Kat what Connie says here is golden. I would rarely if ever feed my dogs 'white' potatoes sometimes in table scraps but never by design. Oats as well I would only use that for a lactating bitch as that to me is the only time a dog needs any type of extra grain and oats are perfect for those demands that lactating require, oats never really hurt unless there is added sugar etc. My dogs never get corn or wheat, IMO no dog should.  

How I feed the urban wolf is with ground bone in turkey or chicken as the main protein and sprinkle by eye about a teaspoon on it. Like I say I use it more for convenience as it has all the vegetables that I want to add in a dehydrated form with the egg shell for the calcium carbonate. Every 2nd or 3rd day I add chicken backs or turkey necks, whole frozen sardines, green tripe, a whole fresh egg with shell, liver, heart or tongue. I mix all those things up over the month and don't give the urban wolf every day especially when I am giving lots of RMBs like turkey necks or chicken backs. 

Both my dogs their teeth are white white white the coats are beautiful and the nails require regular trimming as they grow really quickly.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Connie, Geoff

Are the eggshells a supplement for just the calcium or also for the bone in general? Doesn't the bone have a lot more to offer then just calcium?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> .... Doesn't the bone have a lot more to offer then just calcium?


You mean besides the chewing factor? Not really. (Remember we aren't talking about recreational bones, so no marrow in this discussion, and none of the gristle/connective tissue that might be present on recreational bones.  )

The plain old bone is about 2/3 calcium phosphate; the rest is mostly a hard-to-digest collagen.

As far as nutrition goes, the bone part of RMBs is important for its calcium.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Thank you much! :wink:


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Are the eggshells a supplement for just the calcium or also for the bone in general? Doesn't the bone have a lot more to offer then just calcium?



In my case the eggshells are just in the mix. As Connie mentioned bone itself is the perfect balance of calcium and posphorous and the eggshells are made up of calcium carbonate. As a source of calcium for dogs they do the same thing up to a point. The problem with the eggshells or calcium carbonate is that it is absorbed differently than bone itself and in a rare case you can overdose the dog with calcium carbonate from eggshells causing a condition called hypercalcemia if you are not aware of the other sources of Calcium in the dog's diet. 

As you've probably noticed with your own dogs when giving a protein source with lots of bone (chicken backs, turkey necks, deer ribcages etc) when they defecate the stool is toilet bowl white and will crumble to powder. That is the way the dog gets rid of the extra calcium from the bone, with calcium carbonate it stays in the blood and gets removed by kidneys and liver. So that is why I am always very mindful when giving egg shell or any other product that uses egg shell. For me I always err on the side of caution with calcium carbonate, especially when my dogs have RMBs as a bulk of their diet.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Thanks for that also! I'd love to get back with RAW like I was doing when I had three small terriers. Two GSDs and retirement make it a bit difficult.


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## Meg O'Donovan (Aug 20, 2012)

Is the calcium in dairy products of the same type as eggshells, or would excess dairy calcium pass out of the body as it does with bones? 
Do you know of any differences in calcium content, depending on type (e.g. beef vs. goat) or product (milk vs. buttermilk vs. cottage cheese vs. hard cheese)?
I am feeding raw based on ground wild game (deer, moose, elk), as well as organs, supplementing with eggs and dairy and greens powder. This dog (17 months old) loves bananas as a treat.
I may go to using the Urban Wolf powder to streamline the process. I get ground game from an meat cutter for $.50/lb, and it has put more muscle on the dog, which is good in winter. She seems to have calmed more since her diet changed to the raw meat, but that could be to her maturing.

Come summer, I'll switch to fresh fish which is more available then. Are there any concerns with feeding fish raw? The lakes and rivers are still clean around here.


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## James Kotary (Nov 14, 2012)

Meg O'Donovan said:


> Is the calcium in dairy products of the same type as eggshells, or would excess dairy calcium pass out of the body as it does with bones?
> Do you know of any differences in calcium content, depending on type (e.g. beef vs. goat) or product (milk vs. buttermilk vs. cottage cheese vs. hard cheese)?
> I am feeding raw based on ground wild game (deer, moose, elk), as well as organs, supplementing with eggs and dairy and greens powder. This dog (17 months old) loves bananas as a treat.
> I may go to using the Urban Wolf powder to streamline the process. I get ground game from an meat cutter for $.50/lb, and it has put more muscle on the dog, which is good in winter. She seems to have calmed more since her diet changed to the raw meat, but that could be to her maturing.
> ...


Check your local Department of Environmental Conservation for fish quotas. Here in New York some lakes and rivers have a suggested amount to eat per person. I am sure you can equate that to your dogs weight if there are suggested restrictions because certain toxins may be found in certain fish species or in certain lakes and rivers. Most times you can find a book with this information where ever you can purchase a fishing and hunting license. Most times they are free and have the information you may be looking for.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Thanks for that also! I'd love to get back with RAW like I was doing when I had three small terriers. Two GSDs and retirement make it a bit difficult.


Being retired actually should make it easier. I have 2 Malinois now and the young male looks like a waif but eats like a horse he has a very active metabolism. Probably eats twice the weight of his Mom and he is only 5-6 lbs heavier. 

The biggest issue is finding a reasonable supplier that won't gouge you price wise. Then you need freezer room, I do my RAW for my two dogs with a 10/ft freezer for me it is actually easier than kibble.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

_"Come summer, I'll switch to fresh fish which is more available then. Are there any concerns with feeding fish raw? The lakes and rivers are still clean around here."_

Yes, there's a serious (deadly) concern: Salmon Poisoning Disease (which encompasses all salmonids*, not just the fish we call salmon) is caused by Neorickettsia helminthoeca. SPD does not affect humans, and in fact doesn't affect most other animal species, but it kills an estimated 90% of dogs who develop it and are not treated. It's easily treated if diagnosed, but usually not diagnosed. (What vet says "Has your dog been into raw salmonids lately?") A huge contributing factor is allowing a dog who comes along on a fishing trip access to the throwaways after the trout, etc., are cleaned.

This is mainly in the Pacific Northwest, but it also follows fish migration inland.

Cooking the fish destroys the Neorickettsia helminthoeca, which is kind of an infection of an otherwise harmless fluke called Nanophyetus salmincola.


*Salmon, trout, candlefish, steelhead, lamprey, sculpin, redside shiner, shad, sturgeon ....





ETA to add old links:

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBul...-capsules-liquid-23017/index5.html#post325572

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f25/how-about-tuna-2124/index3.html#post25100


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## Meg O'Donovan (Aug 20, 2012)

I didn't know about the fresh salmonoid problem. I am east of the Cascades, and we have big salmon runs on two of our rivers, as well as lake fish (kokanee, trout). I'll cook the fish I give her. Thanks for the information.


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

im confused. are urban wolf and honest kitchen meant to be mixed with plain meat or RMB?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

jamie lind said:


> im confused. are urban wolf and honest kitchen meant to be mixed with plain meat or RMB?


As far as I know, Urban Wolf makes only a pre-mix (or "base"). (I could be wrong; I don't know a lot about Urban Wolf. But I don't think they make a complete food.)

http://www.urbanwolf.cc/recipe.htm


This is NOT the case with THK. All but one of the THK formulas are complete as is. One (Preference) needs the meat added in, and is meant to serve as the "rest of the meal" for a dog who is on a special protein source, probably because of a food allergy. (That is, a dog who is allergic to chicken and beef, say, might be given Preference made with lamb.)

All the other THK formulas are complete and could actually be the entire diet.

http://www.thehonestkitchen.com/products/dog-food/


HOWEVER, most active dogs, working dogs, etc., will do better with add-ins. The add-ins can be cooked meat, raw meat, or RMBs, as long as you stay within the package guidelines for the limit of add-ins. They give the limits because exceeding them with, say, all boneless muscle meat, will throw off the calcium-to-phosphorus ratio.

(If the add-in is a balanced RMB itself, then of course there is more wiggle-room.)


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Here is their own explanation, probably much clearer than mine:

http://www.thehonestkitchen.com/products/learn/frequently-asked-questions/#othermeat


I personally usually keep THK around both for travel and also to make it up kind of thin and use as a "gravy" sometimes with the regular raw diet. It gives good variety for times when I've been relying too heavily on chicken. I usually have Love and Zeal (non-chicken choices) because the RMBs I use are almost all chicken.


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

so using RMB will not provide to much calcium? and using just muscle meat will not give them to little? they are both within the limits a dog needs?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

jamie lind said:


> so using RMB will not provide to much calcium? and using just muscle meat will not give them to little? they are both within the limits a dog needs?


If you follow the add-in limit guidelines. You should not exceed them. 

QUOTE: _We recommend 1/2 to 1 cup of extra ingredients for each dry-measured cup of the food. .... Our foods have balanced calcium: phosphorus ratios to allow you to add in extras in moderate amounts without throwing these important minerals outside their optimum ratios.
_




(In some places THK site text is too vague about leaving out some of the THK in order to use the limit of add-ins. This is not OK unless the add-ins are RMBs that are balanced on their own. The packages are properly texted, but there are spots on their site that could give the impression that you could cut back on the THK as much as you want while using all boneless add-ins. This is not correct.)


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

jamie lind said:


> im confused. are urban wolf and honest kitchen meant to be mixed with plain meat or RMB?


 that is what i was wondering also...
Cause off the Ca levels...
Yoghurt is high in Ca as well as Cottage cheese...so you can supplement with this...
I checked Urban wolfs page but cannot find nutritional guides... is there any on the bag other then plain ingredients. on rawmax they have it listed.... ?!?1


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Here is their own explanation, probably much clearer than mine:
> 
> http://www.thehonestkitchen.com/products/learn/frequently-asked-questions/#othermeat
> 
> ...


How many feedings are in one 3 LB or 7 LB box? I think it said 1 1/8 cup dry product for a 51- 70 LB dog.
Or roughly how many cups are in a box?
*
NOTE:*
*See *http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f25/honest-kitchen-25592/#post367820


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Kat Hunsecker said:


> How many feedings are in one 3 LB or 7 LB box? I think it said 1 1/8 cup dry product for a 51- 70 LB dog.
> Or roughly how many cups are in a box?


There is a bit of confusion here about honest kitchen probably due to the OP not remembering exactly what we were talking about so many moons ago. ;-) ***

THK for me is something I would only feed when I am traveling. Though my dogs don't really do that well on it they have very loose stools. I've tried a few of the different varieties of THK too so it isn't just one flavour. It is billed as being a complete meal in a box just add h2o. I've also done another dehydrated product called NRG. http://www.nrgpetproducts.com/ There still is some loose stools even with this product with my dogs but like THK it is a RAW meal in a box just add h2o. 

All the dehydrated RAW is very expensive and there isn't a lot of value built in, but more convenience. A 7 lbs box from THK for me with 2 active Malinois will only last 5-7 meals. Plus it gives my dogs the shits, when I travel now I bring the Urban Wolf and Salmon oil caps in a small jar then source protein ingredients at my destination. YMMV.




*** *Mod note:* 
*Yes.*  *I started a THK thread over here: *http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f25/honest-kitchen-25592/#post367820


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

jamie lind said:


> so using RMB will not provide to much calcium? and using just muscle meat will not give them to little? they are both within the limits a dog needs?


RMBs you cannot overdose a dog with Calcium as the phosporous/calcium balance is perfect. Whatever calcium the dog doesn't need the dog defecates it. That's why if you see the feces of a dog that has eaten ribcages and lots of turkey necks etc the feces will be white and crumble into powder for the most part. 

Giving muscle meat by itself, *DOESN'T* give enough calcium because there is no calcium in just muscle meat you need it another source for calcium. Bones, egg shell etc. 

As I said in earlier posts in the thread there is a difference in the sources of calcium so it is best to educate yourself on them.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Geoff Empey said:


> RMBs you cannot overdose a dog with Calcium as the phosporous/calcium balance is perfect. Whatever calcium the dog doesn't need the dog defecates it. That's why if you see the feces of a dog that has eaten ribcages and lots of turkey necks etc the feces will be white and crumble into powder for the most part.
> 
> Giving muscle meat by itself, *DOESN'T* give enough calcium because there is no calcium in just muscle meat you need it another source for calcium. Bones, egg shell etc.
> 
> As I said in earlier posts in the thread there is a difference in the sources of calcium so it is best to educate yourself on them.



I might have mis-read Jamie's question. I thought the question was asking about giving RMBs or muscle meat "with THK" (as add-ins).

Jamie said:_" .... so using RMB will not provide to much calcium? and using just muscle meat will not give them to little? they are both within the limits a dog needs?"_

If this did not mean "as add-ins to a complete THK formula" ... then ignore my reply.

And Geoff is right. The thread is way confusing now. *Urban Wolf and THK are different products. * One is a base mix and one is a complete food (except the Preference formula, which is a base mix) that most people who use is for active dogs add more meat or RMBs to _as directed on the package_ (so as not to throw off the calcium: phosphorus ratio).




*ETA:
THK continued over here:* http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f25/honest-kitchen-25592/#post367820


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Geoff Empey said:


> RMBs you cannot overdose a dog with Calcium as the phosporous/calcium balance is perfect.


This is really a crucial point here.

And if you are using RMBs, don't add calcium.


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

Connie - you understood me correctly. I was also talking about prefence not the complete mixes. Thanks for answering my ?'s.





_
NOTE: I was answering about the complete mixes, not Preference. _


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> This is really a crucial point here.
> 
> And if you are using RMBs, don't add calcium.


In my case I do feed RMBs and use the Urban Wolf for vegs it does have calcium carbonate so I am always mindful of how much I give in accordance to how much RMBs I am feeding my dogs. It works well for me. Though I have done a lot of research on RAW nutrition. It works for me and more importantly works for my dogs. 

I'd like to thank Connie here in public for actually helping me all those years ago to do RAW in the first place. Her wisdom and guidance took a lot of the hocus pocus out of it. My dogs are better for it, it is the best thing that that I have ever done for my dog's health outside of teaching a fast snappy recall.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Geoff Empey said:


> In my case I do feed RMBs and use the Urban Wolf for vegs it does have calcium carbonate so I am always mindful of how much I give in accordance to how much RMBs I am feeding my dogs. It works well for me. Though I have done a lot of research on RAW nutrition.



A major point here is a load of research about calcium and phosphorus and raw. 




This kind of research is a whole lot of dry info that I suspect most folks venturing into raw don't care about doing. LOL

That means the best bet (the safe bet for Ca balance) is an RMB-based diet or following the instructions on a pre-mix (or a dehydrated complete with add-ins as directed). JMHO! 








PS 
Thank you for the nice compliment!


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

thanks for a new thread...
but i would not feed the THK or the urban wolf as a main course everyday... I have my diet firgured out. And am looking into good supplements to add occatioanlly. I keep a variety on things at hand, so it works out balanced- only the bone part is not as i would like it, but still we cover the Ca. 

Also most people do not feed whole animals-like me, so brain, hair and some innerds are just missing in the diet. so stuff still is amiss, if you can't feed the whole thing. so you have to add stuff.

i was still hjopeing to find the nutritionla brake down of urban wolf.. i take it there is nothing on the bag either other than the ingredients list?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Kat Hunsecker said:


> .... i was still hjopeing to find the nutritionla brake down of urban wolf.. i take it there is nothing on the bag either other than the ingredients list?


It's on the Urban Wolf site, but it's the analysis of the prepared recipe:

http://www.urbanwolf.cc/recipe.htm#analysis


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

Connie Sutherland said:


> It's on the Urban Wolf site, but it's the analysis of the prepared recipe:
> 
> http://www.urbanwolf.cc/recipe.htm#analysis


thanks, i saw this one, but was hopeing for the "unprepared" version...LOL


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Kat Hunsecker said:


> I keep a variety on things at hand, so it works out balanced- only the bone part is not as i would like it, but still we cover the Ca.


Are you sure that you are covering the calcium needs during the times of no bone? Did you know that cottage cheese, for example, contains only 100 to 200 mg of calcium per cup? The calcium in a whole cup is only what is needed to cover a few ounces of boneless meat.

That is, if you need about 56 mg of calcium to cover an _ounce _of boneless meat (which you do, for a dog), you see how difficult it would be to cover a _pound_ of boneless meat without either switching to RMBs or adding calcium? VERY difficult to do it by adding other foods with calcium, because most of those foods (dairy, for example) also contain phosphorus, which means those foods need to be calcium-balanced as well. That is, their calcium cannot even all be attributed to making up for missing bone from boneless meat.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Kat Hunsecker said:


> thanks, i saw this one, but was hopeing for the "unprepared" version...LOL


Yes, I kinda figured that. 

I betcha you can get it from them, though.

Email: [email protected]


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Are you sure that you are covering the calcium needs during the times of no bone? Did you know that cottage cheese, for example, contains only 100 to 200 mg of calcium per cup? The calcium in a whole cup is only what is needed to cover a few ounces of boneless meat.
> 
> That is, if you need about 56 mg of calcium to cover an _ounce _of boneless meat (which you do, for a dog), you see how difficult it would be to cover a _pound_ of boneless meat without either switching to RMBs or adding calcium? VERY difficult to do it by adding other foods with calcium, because most of those foods (dairy, for example) also contain phosphorus, which means those foods need to be calcium-balanced as well. That is, their calcium cannot even all be attributed to making up for missing bone from boneless meat.


Yes i agree, this is what worried me, our meat source is different every time, for a while we had plenty of meaty bones- mainly chicken, but here lately it is not that much, so i tried to compansate with other sources. for periods i resorted back to a high quality dog food, to keep them nurished... i keep that on hand also.
cottage Cheese has per 100g: 50mg Ca to 170mg P
Joghurt is better for the Ca ratio. It has per 100g: 130 mg Ca to 100mg P -according to my list...
Broccoli has a good amount of Ca with lesser Pwhich i like to use also,so is Spinach. in the summer you find plenty of Dandioline leaves, they are good,too. but as you said bone is best!!!
Keep some algies at hand- no P,but good Ca...
On the other hand consitency payed off. I tried the meatlockers periodically for bonemeal. obviously it depends on who you have on the phone. I was able to get bone dust just yesterday, that should keep me going for a while...


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

I wouldn't feed broccoli. I understand that it doesn't agree with k9 digestive systems and could be considered borderline poison to k9s.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Geoff Empey said:


> I wouldn't feed broccoli. I understand that it doesn't agree with k9 digestive systems and could be considered borderline poison to k9s.


Yes, you're right.

Actually, I avoid that whole family for dogs, for more than one reason.

With dogs of a bloat-vulnerable breed (like many or most of us have), I steer clear of gassy foods. 

But yes, broccoli has that pesky isothiocyanate issue too. When isothiocyanate toxicity showed up in cattle, research started as to its effect on other species. The cattle who were seriously affected with G.I. inflammation and even long-term damage had eaten a LOT of broccoli; it was a glut on the market for a few seasons and was fed to the cattle. Also, cows, of course, have that very different digestion process: thorough, with "redos" that gave their systems loads of opportunity to absorb the isothiocyanate.

When research was done on dogs, it was concluded that less than 5% of the diet was conservative and safe. 

But I still don't give the gassy stuff to bloat-prone dogs, even at under 5% of the diet, except maybe one floret each as a rare cooked treat (for some reason, dogs seem to love the smell and taste of cooked broccoli; at least mine do).


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

BTW, I read somewhere that the broccoli _stems_ don't contain isothiocyanate -- I didn't follow it up, but it might be worth pursuing because of the anti-carcinogen properties of cruciferous vegetables, if your dog happens not to get gassy from the raffinose in them.

For me, so far, I just avoid them for the dogs.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> But yes, broccoli has that pesky isothiocyanate issue too. When isothiocyanate toxicity showed up in cattle, research started as to its effect on other species. The cattle who were seriously affected with G.I. inflammation and even long-term damage had eaten a LOT of broccoli; it was a glut on the market for a few seasons and was fed to the cattle. Also, cows, of course, have that very different digestion process: thorough, with "redos" that gave their systems loads of opportunity to absorb the isothiocyanate.
> 
> When research was done on dogs, it was concluded that less than 5% of the diet was conservative and safe.
> 
> But I still don't give the gassy stuff to bloat-prone dogs, even at under 5% of the diet, except maybe one floret each as a rare cooked treat (for some reason, dogs seem to love the smell and taste of cooked broccoli; at least mine do).


I've never heard of isothiocyanate toxicity from vegs like broccoli. I knew about the bloat issues that it could be considered poison with pointy ear herders. So I never would think about feeding it *EVER.* I am always surprised when I hear people try to feed it. People always seem to look at nutrition for dogs from a human standpoint first. Dogs just don't process foods like the way humans do so why people insist on old wives tales, it always puzzles me. There is so much info out there now so there shouldn't be an excuse. 

When I go to these pet shows I am always talking to the nutrition reps from the big companies. Most of them are only good at handing out sample packs. I love quizzing them on their ingredients and formulas not often do I find one that knows their stuff.


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

i have been feeding Urban wolf for many many yrs and i am very happy with it , 
for yrs i feed it with cooked meat added into my dogs kibble, 
now i feed it raw to everyone,, 

my feeding program is , usually chicken quarters / backs necks for breakfast , 
and urban wolf, prepared properly with hamburger meat at night 
i give tripe a couple times a week also 

my dogs do great on it 

its not meant to be just sprinkled onto food, its supposed to be a whole diet , but made the way they suggest


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

Opinions differ I also feed garlic.......
Which is toxic in big amounts as well. Everything in moderation guys


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

So, after all this I just want to say thanks Geoff for mentioning it. Thank you Connie for your knowledge and information. And thanks for all those that are asking questions and looking to feed their dogs a healthy raw diet. I always learn more not only from research, but from reading the questions and responses on these threads. Thanks guys n' gals!!!!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

About garlic:

The trouble with the thiosulphate and allyl propyl disulfide in the allium family is that individual dogs have individual toxicity levels, and there is no way to know in advance. 

So I don't feed garlic. (The tiny amount of garlic flavor in small treats wouldn't worry me.)

Onions, another member of the allium family, are FAR more toxic .... to the point that regularly getting baby food that contains onion powder, even that small amount, can kill tiny puppies (from hemolytic anemia). I don't give onions in any amount ever. Garlic may be debatable, but onions aren't. (JMO.)

The list of foods that are great for people and toxic to dogs isn't gigantic. It doesn't seem to me like a hardship to just skip those foods.

JMO, though, and I know that in the case of garlic, many people consider the advantages to far outweigh the minimal risk.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Zakia Days said:


> I always learn more not only from research, but from reading the questions and responses on these threads.



Me too.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Tammy St. Louis said:


> my feeding program is , usually chicken quarters / backs necks for breakfast , and urban wolf, prepared properly with hamburger meat at night
> i give tripe a couple times a week also
> 
> my dogs do great on it
> ...


So you don't think your dogs get enough calcium from RMBs in the chicken backs/necks/quarters you give?


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## Rachel M. Reams (Nov 29, 2012)

Connie Sutherland said:


> About garlic:
> So I don't feed garlic. (The tiny amount of garlic flavor in small treats wouldn't worry me.)


When I make boiled liver for the dogs, I either use minced garlic in the water, or sprinkles of garlic powder, and as you say, I don't let that small amount worry me, especially as the liver is rinsed before it goes into the oven for a drying period.

I hadn't considered onion powder in baby food though, so that's good to know. Thanks for the tip!


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## Jessica Kromer (Nov 12, 2009)

Kat Hunsecker said:


> Opinions differ I also feed garlic.......
> Which is toxic in big amounts as well. Everything in moderation guys


I have never understood the thought process behind "I know it is poisonous to my dog, but I only feed a little of it..." WHY? It adds nothing positive to the diet/nutrition and is considered TOXIC for the dog, so why intentionally add it? I mean, if there is zero benefit, why even consider it? 

Back to my hole...


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

Jessica Kromer said:


> I have never understood the thought process behind "I know it is poisonous to my dog, but I only feed a little of it..." WHY? It adds nothing positive to the diet/nutrition and is considered TOXIC for the dog, so why intentionally add it? I mean, if there is zero benefit, why even consider it?
> 
> Back to my hole...


i consider it cause i just like to poisen my dogs an killing them slowly.......LOL joke aside:

How do you know it is not adding anything positive to the diet /nutrition?!?!?
It's acting anitbecterial,anti viral and also anti parisital (sp:?) It contains Alliin and the enzyme Allinase.Its good for the cardiovascular system. It helps keeping the vessels more flexible. Helps slow the connecting to the free radicals- also activates the free radical catching enzymes...


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Kat Hunsecker said:


> i consider it cause i just like to poisen my dogs an killing them slowly.......LOL joke aside:
> 
> How do you know it is not adding anything positive to the diet /nutrition?!?!?
> It's acting anitbecterial,anti viral and also anti parisital (sp:?) It contains Alliin and the enzyme Allinase.Its good for the cardiovascular system. It helps keeping the vessels more flexible. Helps slow the connecting to the free radicals- also activates the free radical catching enzymes...


_
"Its good for the cardiovascular system."_

Did you know that dogs don't have the kind of coronary heart disease that humans have (the kind that makes us have a "heart attack")? With rare exceptions, like maybe a dog with bad hypothyroidism, dogs don't develop clogged arteries from atherosclerotic plaque.

And that dogs don't have the cholesterol issues we have?

Of course dogs have heart disease, from valvular disease to dilated cardiomyopathy; they can have congenital heart disease and of course heartworms. Rare but possible are myocarditis and bacterial endocarditis. 

But coronary arterial disease is really not a dog problem. So the role that garlic apparently plays in keeping platelets from clumping together is really a human benefit.

JMO!

It does have other benefits. And in small amounts, it seems to have no deleterious effect on the vast majority of dogs.

For me, I'd rather just not feed known toxins, but of course it's a matter of personal preference and individual weighing of pros and cons.


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## Meg O'Donovan (Aug 20, 2012)

Do dogs acquire fat around their organs that jeopardizes health? It is really interesting to read that they don't get the arterial plaque. I wonder why?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jessica Kromer said:


> I have never understood the thought process behind "I know it is poisonous to my dog, but I only feed a little of it..." WHY? It adds nothing positive to the diet/nutrition and is considered TOXIC for the dog, so why intentionally add it? I mean, if there is zero benefit, why even consider it?
> 
> Back to my hole...



Kind of like naming a dog food AvoDerm and plastering pictures of avocados all over the bag like it's some kind of dog health food and the more the better?

When called on it, the manufacturer went into this loooooong explanation of certain kinds of avocados, the farm dogs in California who live on avocado farms and are just fine, and it's probably only the Guatemalan variety that presents a problem, and so on.

For me, the name AvoDerm and the presentation of avocados as a doggy miracle food is irresponsible, even though persin research is still hazy and the toxic amount is not known. In fact, that haziness kinda makes it more irresponsible, for me.

JMO, though.




ETA
The company's statement: http://www.avodermnatural.com/About/why_avocados.htm


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Kat Hunsecker said:


> i consider it cause i just like to poisen my dogs an killing them slowly.......LOL joke aside:
> 
> How do you know it is not adding anything positive to the diet /nutrition?!?!?
> It's acting anitbecterial,anti viral and also anti parisital (sp:?) It contains Alliin and the enzyme Allinase.Its good for the cardiovascular system. It helps keeping the vessels more flexible. Helps slow the connecting to the free radicals- also activates the free radical catching enzymes...


Have fed garlic daily for over 20 years to my dogs. No fleas or other critters.

T


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Have fed garlic daily for over 20 years to my dogs. No fleas or other critters.
> 
> T


That's one of the major attractions, I think.

http://www.paw-rescue.org/PAW/PETTIPS/DogTip_InsectPrevention.php


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Meg O'Donovan said:


> Do dogs acquire fat around their organs that jeopardizes health? It is really interesting to read that they don't get the arterial plaque. I wonder why?


Meg from what I understand (disclaimer I am not a k9 nutrition expert or play one on TV though from time to time I play one on the WDF) ;-) That active K9s use fat in the same way as humans use carbs, i.e for quick energy. So they are constantly burning fat from their reserves. I assume that is one of the reasons why they do not get arterial plaque. The amount of fat my young male Malinois eats would be a heart attack in a human but he is a waif, it is the only thing that keeps him from turning into a bone rack. If I feed him more of any other food he just craps more and doesn't put weight on.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Geoff Empey said:


> Meg from what I understand (disclaimer I am not a k9 nutrition expert or play one on TV though from time to time I play one on the WDF) ;-) That active K9s use fat in the same way as humans use carbs, i.e for quick energy. So they are constantly burning fat from their reserves. I assume that is one of the reasons why they do not get arterial plaque. The amount of fat my young male Malinois eats would be a heart attack in a human but he is a waif, it is the only thing that keeps him from turning into a bone rack. If I feed him more of any other food he just craps more and doesn't put weight on.


I actually stumbled upon this [fat connection] for my corgi. Added fat [safflower oil from Pitcairin] and she started gaining and holding weight better.

T


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Can't to much fat create pancreas problems and how do you tell what is to much?
I'd love to add a bit of fat to one of my dog's diet. As he's gotten older it's hell to keep weight on him.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Can't to much fat create pancreas problems and how do you tell what is to much?
> I'd love to add a bit of fat to one of my dog's diet. As he's gotten older it's hell to keep weight on him.


Bob, this is largely an issue with cooked fad (well, and rancid fat, too).

You've heard of Holiday Pancreatitis? This is generally dogs getting sudden leftovers of stuffing, gravy, etc. (Or dumpster-diving for same.)

I'm not saying that you can add a bunch of raw fat all at once, but if the dog has never had a problem with fat before, then starting with a little raw fat (and that includes good cold-pressed oils --- not supermarket crap corn oil or "vegetable oil," which is not good for us or the dogs) will add 9 calories per gram (twice as many as a gram of either protein or carbs) and probably benefit in other ways too.

In fact, I just bought a few jars of excellent raw coconut oil because it was on sale. If you remind me by email of your mailing address, I'll send you one.


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> Can't to much fat create pancreas problems and how do you tell what is to much?
> I'd love to add a bit of fat to one of my dog's diet. As he's gotten older it's hell to keep weight on him.


Don't know about that, but I do know that fat helps absorb Ca but too much will inhibit it again. So too much can also be a problem.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I actually stumbled upon this [fat connection] for my corgi. Added fat [safflower oil from Pitcairin] and she started gaining and holding weight better.
> 
> T


Safflower oil (cold-pressed) is also a good fat.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

One thing that's undeservedly popular for unthrifty dogs is "satin balls."

All that grain! And sugar! And corn oil!


This recipe feeds into (ha!) a couple of old myths, IMO .... about gelatin, about eggs, about molasses .....

The only macronutrient that has more calories than the others is fat. (Alcohol is different and not applicable here.) So the fat there (the poor-quality fat in corn oil, the small amount of better fat {for humans} in wheat germ, the better fat {for dogs} in the meat and egg yolks, the tiny amounts in the oats if it's whole-grain, etc.) is the only component that does anything to up caloric intake. Easily done without corn oil or a load of cereal grains. 

Carbs have the same number of calories (4 per gram) as protein. ONLY fat has 9. 

Nothing about that recipe, including the much-vaunted miracles of gelatin, has ever impressed me. 

But it pops up all the time, and I don't know why (unless all the sugar makes even poor eaters scarf it up).

There's also too much calcium in there. 

JMO!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Bob, this is largely an issue with cooked fad (well, and rancid fat, too).
> 
> You've heard of Holiday Pancreatitis? This is generally dogs getting sudden leftovers of stuffing, gravy, etc. (Or dumpster-diving for same.)
> 
> ...


Thanks Connie.That good to know about the cooked vs raw. Shoulda been obvious. :lol: 
The wife recently started using coconut oil in our cooking. I feed the dogs twice daily. The first is when I get of the computer about midnight or so. :-k.....:twisted:
We also picked up our yearly half side of beef today. Should be good trimmings on that.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Since mine are around livestock, I do deworm the herding dogs twice a year. Noticed Rhemy was losing guard hairs and not holding weight like he should. Didn't see any worms but his condition improved drastically. Now with all my training, he's a little chunky.

T


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## Meg O'Donovan (Aug 20, 2012)

Regarding the fat topic, does the origin of the fat influence how the dog's body processes it? For example, raw animal fats vs. pressed vegetable fats? Which is better? 

My young dog (17 months) is getting probably 20% fat in her raw ground meat (which is all wild deer, moose and elk meat). I also give salmon oil. I could see her ribs when I got her in May ( she was a growing teenager who wasn't thriving in her previous kennel life).

I wanted her to bulk up some before winter (it is -20 degrees outside tonight, but no wind chill). The ground game has really built up her muscle and a little winter fat, which I'm sure she will burn off in the spring. She's skookum now, a really solid dog. I think the wild game is good, because it is free of antibiotics and the other things that complicate modern life for most.

Since I am new to WDF, I'm not sure when I should be starting new threads for these subtopics that come up... Should I have posted the fat question in a new/different thread?

BTW, I used to live on a Central Pacific atoll and the island dogs that didn't get eaten (by locals) ate mostly scavenged coconuts and fish. Those dogs didn't look great but they survived okay.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I actually stumbled upon this [fat connection] for my corgi. Added fat [safflower oil from Pitcairin] and she started gaining and holding weight better.


I've pretty well used any and all types of fat with my Male Malinois. Herring and Salmon oil is the big one also in the RAW whole sardines I get. Then both dogs get a fair bit of chicken skin with their chicken backs. I also add flax seed oil caplets, olive oil from time to time. I also save the fat off of beef cooked or uncooked and cartilage off of joints. I have been known to give my male the bacon fat out of the fry pan especially when it is cold outside. He has an iron gut, if I fed my female the same amount of fat she gets pukey. So with her I have to watch levels more.


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