# hectic in drive



## brad robert

Who thinks that some dogs are just so hectic in drive its a real PITA to train them in accurate obedience.

MY girl has plenty of drive but she can just get so hectic in drive that doing the same thing she has done a thousand times she can get sloppy on thru being either over the top in drive or just being a complete over the top dick.Its making repeating an obedience routine with some accuracy a chore.


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## Josh Mueller

I had the problem with my girl that if I used a ball or a tug she would load up so much for it that it would go to shit and she would take a lot of cheap shots at me and then it would turn into a fight.

I ended up going to the clicker and food for all the OB work. Being able to get the positions correct without Dora being all over the place and constantly challening me for the reward really worked or me.

I bashed clicker training for years but it really work on this particular dog. Taking it to a little lower value but still plenty to get the correctness really benefited me.

Hope this helps


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## Timothy Saunders

great advice from Josh. I would just add that u have to reward only the behaviors u want. Don't reward the hectic behavior. u could also try working her until she is tired and then start your ob.


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## Pete Stevens

Slow way down and demand perfection in OB. Don't reward hetic behavior. I agree with using food reward to regain control but if you see a drop the dogs energy during an exercise, you might want to mix in the toy again. Mix things up a bit.


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## will fernandez

why not just correct her so she is not hectic but still in drive?


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## brad robert

Thanks so far guys.I do use food and toys and that seems to be the thing she never knows what is coming and it drives her right up.I have found a little work before hand is good to knock the edge of just not so much that she looses energy or drive.

Will if i correct her she probably would shut down to me she is pretty sensitive to my corrections.

The club i train with seek absolutely the highest level of control and obedience while keeping it fun sure is a fun challenge with this girl.

I need to post a video.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

There are a lot of dogs that shut down over corrections, and people go "Oh my ! I can't use corrections instead of just working through it. I mean really, who gives a shit if she shuts down ? Maybe you will come to your senses and realize that it is time to get one that actually is worth working. : )

And YES, yes I broke a lot of dogs when I was young. Where do you think this hatred of crap dogs comes from ? 

The other surprise you may find is that she is just a spoiled little shit, and you work through her "shutting down" ( or as I call it, bullshit excuse to train a different way ) you may find a good dog on the other side.

This is where training is an art. This is where you find out if you have any talent at all.


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## Timothy Saunders

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> There are a lot of dogs that shut down over corrections, and people go "Oh my ! I can't use corrections instead of just working through it. I mean really, who gives a shit if she shuts down ? Maybe you will come to your senses and realize that it is time to get one that actually is worth working. : )
> 
> And YES, yes I broke a lot of dogs when I was young. Where do you think this hatred of crap dogs comes from ?
> 
> The other surprise you may find is that she is just a spoiled little shit, and you work through her "shutting down" ( or as I call it, bullshit excuse to train a different way ) you may find a good dog on the other side.
> 
> This is where training is an art. This is where you find out if you have any talent at all.[/QUOTE
> 
> you are spot on with this one Jeff. I guess u can just give advice. nice


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## Selena van Leeuwen

slow her down, if sh's hectic she won't learn. Slowing down can be by correction (voice or leash) and by choosing other rewards.

Personally I get very irritated by a hectic dog, and they are corrected for it.


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## Alice Bezemer

brad robert said:


> Who thinks that some dogs are just so hectic in drive its a real PITA to train them in accurate obedience.
> 
> MY girl has plenty of drive but she can just get so hectic in drive that doing the same thing she has done a thousand times she can get sloppy on thru being either over the top in drive or just being a complete over the top dick.Its making repeating an obedience routine with some accuracy a chore.


thats the thing tho isnt it? if she gets a chance to become hectic you are doing something seriously wrong somewhere...she shouldnt get a chance to reach the point of hectic behaviour to begin with...its behaviour you can see coming a mile away and therefor its preventable...its also called "not giving her the choice" 

the behaviour she is showing is one that you allowed to grow to begin with. Start correcting the behaviour and slow her down with repetition...she doesnt get a say in how or what, she just has to do as told....also I would suggest you take a good long look at your own behaviour...people often forget that the way they act towards a dog is a large incentive for the dog to follow that behaviour...stay calm, no emotions, no anger or exitement...no happy or sad....emotions have no place in training a dog....repeat repeat repeat! and dont take NO for an answer....may I also suggest taking away the tugs, toys and treats ? Make yourself the reward instead of shoving toys in her face and treats down her throat which will only exite her again.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: 
you are spot on with this one Jeff. I guess u can just give advice. nice

I only find myself in the mood to do this every once in a great while. I am a God damn genius when it comes to training. If I could only remember that I know what the **** I am doing while training. 

Most people don't really have hectic dogs, they have created them with their training. I would give this dog a good thumping, and then go right back to what I was doing moments before like nothing happened, and see if she has the character to come through it. 

If she doesn't then why on earth are you feeding her ?

I went out to make a video of a bitch that I have that pouts like an idiot when she is not getting her way. Naturally, I could not get the reusable disc to work, but I went out and did some ob with her. She was an idiot, and decided that she was going to pout. She got an ass whupping and we went right back to it, and she did what she was told. She got a pat on the head and we went right back at it. She did some nice work for me.

I need to get Nash on here to come up with some fancy terminology for what I did. : ) That way the "dog trainers" on here can understand what I just said.

Poor Ki Ki, she has had such a happy life until today. HA HA. And for all the positive only people, you can bite my ass, she was happy as a clam when we were done. I went out and threw the ball for her until I decided to put her away. It was 104 today, and she will chase that ball until she strokes out. Into the pool, and then back to her crate.


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## Sara Waters

I use a lot of postive reinforcement in my training and not a great deal of physical correction. However I have a young BC who is very high drive and gets too over excited and pushy when working sheep. 

He gets so excited I will sometimes give him a real good slapping to bring him to his senses. I find immediately afterwards he calms right down and starts to work well. 

I take every opportunity to praise him when he is doing something really well, but as soon as he becomes excited I walk slowly, I put him in the lie down position everytime he starts his nonsense which he hates, and we often have a real battle of wills, but it is not a battle he going to win and I enforce that point. 

I will also show him what I want and what I dont want. I try and anticipate when he is going to do something naughty from his body position and drop him immediately and redirect that thought.

If he behaves I release him to enjoy working his sheep, without to much interference except to praise what he does well. If he starts acting up we go straight to slow time with lots of lie downs.

He is the sort of dog that is so keen and so tuned into when you are losing control that he will exploit that to do his own thing. He is a very confident character though and nothing gets him down. He is good to train in that way.

I have found though that everytime I take him out he improving. He still gets the odd good slap and lots of slow walking and lie downs but I think one day he will make a great sheepdog.


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## Brian Anderson

I have a little 7 month old DS she WAS like that. It's an easy fix. Show the dog what you expect and make it understand "your not only going to do it but your going to like it". If you pitty pat them around and baby them they will take full advantage.


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## Kellie Wolverton

Alice Bezemer said:


> .also I would suggest you take a good long look at your own behaviour...people often forget that the way they act towards a dog is a large incentive for the dog to follow that behaviour...stay calm, no emotions, no anger or exitement...no happy or sad....emotions have no place in training a dog....repeat repeat repeat! and dont take NO for an answer..


 This is something that has been the hardest for me. I didn't want to be "mean" to my dog. And, for me, mean meant corrections. I have worked for years on changing MY mindset. It is coming...but I still have to be conscious of it.

Now "correction" is just another type of information. No emotion...no guilt from me for being "mean"=D>
And it took me a while to also understand that the dog relaxes more when the "rules" are clear...without me muddying everything up with useless emotion.


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## Brian Anderson

Kellie Wolverton said:


> This is something that has been the hardest for me. I didn't want to be "mean" to my dog. And, for me, mean meant corrections. I have worked for years on changing MY mindset. It is coming...but I still have to be conscious of it.
> 
> Now "correction" is just another type of information. No emotion...no guilt from me for being "mean"=D>
> And it took me a while to also understand that the dog relaxes more when the "rules" are clear...without me muddying everything up with useless emotion.


Good for you Kellie


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## ann schnerre

so all this seems to me to mean that the 3 years i spent busting my bitch in the head (hurt me more than it hurt her or it wouldn't have taken 3 years, haha) , and the "come to jesus" meeting i just had with Ikon this past weekend--this was training that ppl will PAY me for???

i don't have to resort to the "come to jesus" meeting with many dogs, but when it's needed, it's needed.

ps: i've had dogs (most) that the only "correction" needed was a nasty tone of voice, or, for some, simply a stare. FWIW.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

@ Ann: 3 yrs is to long... should have a "meet Jezus" meeting long before those 3 yrs passed ;-)


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## Jim Nash

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote:
> you are spot on with this one Jeff. I guess u can just give advice. nice
> 
> I only find myself in the mood to do this every once in a great while. I am a God damn genius when it comes to training. If I could only remember that I know what the **** I am doing while training.
> 
> Most people don't really have hectic dogs, they have created them with their training. I would give this dog a good thumping, and then go right back to what I was doing moments before like nothing happened, and see if she has the character to come through it.
> 
> If she doesn't then why on earth are you feeding her ?
> 
> I went out to make a video of a bitch that I have that pouts like an idiot when she is not getting her way. Naturally, I could not get the reusable disc to work, but I went out and did some ob with her. She was an idiot, and decided that she was going to pout. She got an ass whupping and we went right back to it, and she did what she was told. She got a pat on the head and we went right back at it. She did some nice work for me.
> 
> I need to get Nash on here to come up with some fancy terminology for what I did. : ) That way the "dog trainers" on here can understand what I just said.
> 
> Poor Ki Ki, she has had such a happy life until today. HA HA. And for all the positive only people, you can bite my ass, she was happy as a clam when we were done. I went out and threw the ball for her until I decided to put her away. It was 104 today, and she will chase that ball until she strokes out. Into the pool, and then back to her crate.



I can't get into too much detail about this because I'm in a copyright dispute with another science group over this . It's called the " Mephitichead drive " .

Basically Jeff , you are utilizing a type of drive building by removing the dog's head from it anus , through a series of corrections activating a combination of the dog's physical , visual and auditory sences in order to change a certain behaviorial pattern .


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I knew you would not let me down.


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## ann schnerre

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> @ Ann: 3 yrs is to long... should have a "meet Jezus" meeting long before those 3 yrs passed ;-)


 
oh selena--it was 3 years of busting her in the head (you have to take into account this was a GSDxRott)-but she was WAY good after that :-D

then all i had to do was show her my fist, say "you see this?" and she'd "platz"--and not in a "i'm gonna be beat" attitude. she'd platz and keep an eye on me to see what she should do next--"in drive" as they say nowadays. frickin' HARD dog (or i couldn't have broke my fist for so long and not broken her "spirit"). 

you and dick would've loved her--she was a B**CH. best dog i've ever had.

oh--and get after jeff for what he's doing to poor kiki!!!


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## rick smith

kelly writes :
This is something that has been the hardest for me. I didn't want to be "mean" to my dog. And, for me, mean meant corrections. I have worked for years on changing MY mindset. It is coming...but I still have to be conscious of it.

Now "correction" is just another type of information. No emotion...no guilt from me for being "mean"=D>
And it took me a while to also understand that the dog relaxes more when the "rules" are clear...without me muddying everything up with useless emotion.
......................

the compulsion only types won't tell you this but i sure will 

corrections are .... corrections, regardless of how delivered, and can DEFINITELY be delivered "mean", and often are, because they are delivered from handlers who are frustrated because they are not getting the result they demanded of the dog that THEY thought was crystal clear and black and white.....whether they are new at training or have been doing it from birth and are just sick and tired of their dog flippin em off 

so yes, where YOUR mind is at when you give a correction is DAMN important, and probably JUST as important as WHY and WHEN you are GIVING it in the first place !

.....there is a wee bit for rocket science involved here, but for most of the folks on this thread, that part is way too irrelevant ....by rocket science of course i mean an understanding of BASIC canine behavior, and the more compulsion you use the less that matters to them, as in what the dog was thinkin and why they failed to respond has no bearing on the issue, because the only thing that matters is the dog needs to get its head out of its ass and listen  ..... which proves that even tho most humans are smarter than dogs, a lot don't act like they are when they are "training" them 
- drivey dogs can bring out the worst in some handlers....but aint the dog's problem at all imo

the next time i get to our nearby Ja police dog training "academy", i'll try and shoot some clips and you will see what i mean, but you can probably see a lot of the same techniques at a lot of SchH clubs stateside

corrections are very effective unless it's the only tool in your very small bag


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Sara Waters said:


> He gets so excited I will sometimes give him a real good slapping to bring him to his senses. I find immediately afterwards he calms right down and starts to work well.
> 
> I take every opportunity to praise him when he is doing something really well, but as soon as he becomes excited I walk slowly, I put him in the lie down position everytime he starts his nonsense which he hates, and we often have a real battle of wills, but it is not a battle he going to win and I enforce that point.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> Sara,
> 
> I'm trying to picture this from a livestock perspective. When you say he gets excited, what does he actually do. I'm also trying to picture you slapping around a BC. I have a load/explode bouv so I'm trying to picture what is going on with your BC. When Khira was younger, correction amped her. She's hard enough from a touch standpoint that in drive, like a lot of bouvs, she doesn't feel much. She's become more sensitive to a correction at this age or at least noticing that I'm not happy with what's she's doing. However, if she loads, its gonna be a distance away from me or she takes off at such a speed, I'm not going to be able to shut it down. Right now I'm experimenting with something off stock. She amps and gets absolutely stupid over her food in her bowl. This way I can get to her in that state of mind. Really on stock, I can't. I can get to her after the explosion and lie her down---big deal. Doesn't mean diddly, the next time she is triggered. I'm trying to visualize the lie down as keeping him from getting excited. What's the excitement trigger?
> 
> T


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## Brian Anderson

rick smith said:


> kelly writes :
> This is something that has been the hardest for me. I didn't want to be "mean" to my dog. And, for me, mean meant corrections. I have worked for years on changing MY mindset. It is coming...but I still have to be conscious of it.
> 
> Now "correction" is just another type of information. No emotion...no guilt from me for being "mean"=D>
> And it took me a while to also understand that the dog relaxes more when the "rules" are clear...without me muddying everything up with useless emotion.
> ......................
> 
> the compulsion only types won't tell you this but i sure will
> 
> corrections are .... corrections, regardless of how delivered, and can DEFINITELY be delivered "mean", and often are, because they are delivered from handlers who are frustrated because they are not getting the result they demanded of the dog that THEY thought was crystal clear and black and white.....whether they are new at training or have been doing it from birth and are just sick and tired of their dog flippin em off
> 
> so yes, where YOUR mind is at when you give a correction is DAMN important, and probably JUST as important as WHY and WHEN you are GIVING it in the first place !
> 
> .....there is a wee bit for rocket science involved here, but for most of the folks on this thread, that part is way too irrelevant ....by rocket science of course i mean an understanding of BASIC canine behavior, and the more compulsion you use the less that matters to them, as in what the dog was thinkin and why they failed to respond has no bearing on the issue, because the only thing that matters is the dog needs to get its head out of its ass and listen  ..... which proves that even tho most humans are smarter than dogs, a lot don't act like they are when they are "training" them
> - drivey dogs can bring out the worst in some handlers....but aint the dog's problem at all imo
> 
> the next time i get to our nearby Ja police dog training "academy", i'll try and shoot some clips and you will see what i mean, but you can probably see a lot of the same techniques at a lot of SchH clubs stateside
> 
> corrections are very effective unless it's the only tool in your very small bag


Hey Rick while your in rocket science mode. Point to 1 person on this thread that is a "compulsion only" trainer. The curiosity is killing me :roll:


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## Alice Bezemer

things are being made way to hard here...again terminology rears its UGLY head and the problem at hand gets burried under a lot of nonsence if you ask me...

its very very simple!

no emotions.....no grey areas....no surrender.....

a dog is a creature of habit more then anything else, lead him or he will lead you...action is reaction regardless of the reaction given! 

I cant stress enough that emotions have NO PLACE IN TRAINING! people forget that while talking about what triggers the dog and how they look at that trigger that the dog is looking at what TRIGGERS YOU and is using it in the very same way...the dog isnt stupid you know  

Rick mentions compulsion only trainers..its nothing to do with compulsion tho and everything to do with meeting the dog on its own common ground, aproaching it in a manner that would seem normal to him in nature...so let me put this plainly...I am yet to see an Alpha male or Female walk upto a lowerrank packmember and say " nowwww that wasnt very nice, please dont do that again or I will take away your treats" any behaviour out of the ordinary for the pack will get dealt with swiftly and smartly with as little fuss as possible...it also doesnt get lingered on over and over again...something we could all learn a lot from the be honest......

the first thing I have learnt when I came into dogtraining (specialy with bitework involved) was this:

A dog that knows its place is a happy dog! it doesnt look for ways to ensure its place in the socalled pack...it knows its standing and what is expected, you dont have to jump on it or tell it 24/7 to go away, lay down, stop that, dont do that blablablabla....

some food for thought maybe ?


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## ann schnerre

Alice Bezemer said:


> things are being made way to hard here...again terminology rears its UGLY head and the problem at hand gets burried under a lot of nonsence if you ask me...
> 
> its very very simple!
> 
> no emotions.....no grey areas....no surrender....


AMEN. leave the emotions out of it--the dog (or child for that matter) will get it. as long as a person can leave the emotions out of a correction, administer it consistently, it will work.

i personally start with marker/reward training (now), but will have a "meeting" if needed (sorry Bob and Connie--i'm just not as talented as you 2 are--yet ;-)).


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Yeah, without a description of what the dog is doing or a video its all up to interpretation. The OP mentioned a hectic dog in obedience. So he's loading her up with the toy with food and the suggestion is correct for her going into hectic mode. I don't like taking them there and then beating up on them for it. Why not so load her in the first place. I don't care so much about correction as long as the dog doesn't misinterpret what you are correcting him for. You could end up stopping the behavior you do want. In the herding context, you have a stimulus you can't necessarily control, yet you need to get across to the dog, yeah, I want you in drive but not exploding into hectic behaviors. To correct it, the dog has to be in that hectic frame of mind. It can't be after the fact otherwise its worthless. If the OP's dog is soft to correction, he can correct and get her out of hectic and then bring her back and reward the acceptable drive state--if you want to go the correction route. 


T


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Sara Waters said:
> 
> 
> 
> He gets so excited I will sometimes give him a real good slapping to bring him to his senses. I find immediately afterwards he calms right down and starts to work well.
> 
> I take every opportunity to praise him when he is doing something really well, but as soon as he becomes excited I walk slowly, I put him in the lie down position everytime he starts his nonsense which he hates, and we often have a real battle of wills, but it is not a battle he going to win and I enforce that point.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> Sara,
> 
> I'm trying to picture this from a livestock perspective. When you say he gets excited, what does he actually do. I'm also trying to picture you slapping around a BC. I have a load/explode bouv so I'm trying to picture what is going on with your BC. When Khira was younger, correction amped her. She's hard enough from a touch standpoint that in drive, like a lot of bouvs, she doesn't feel much. She's become more sensitive to a correction at this age or at least noticing that I'm not happy with what's she's doing. However, if she loads, its gonna be a distance away from me or she takes off at such a speed, I'm not going to be able to shut it down. Right now I'm experimenting with something off stock. She amps and gets absolutely stupid over her food in her bowl. This way I can get to her in that state of mind. Really on stock, I can't. I can get to her after the explosion and lie her down---big deal. Doesn't mean diddly, the next time she is triggered. I'm trying to visualize the lie down as keeping him from getting excited. What's the excitement trigger?
> 
> T
Click to expand...


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## Julie Kinsey

I have a dog right now who is a lovely example of her breed, she is very hard, confident, and loves to work so much so that she can barely contain herself. Any consequence used on her must be severe, otherwise she gets higher in drive, so I don't know if hectic is even the correct term in this case, she gets higher than a kite, she's like a little crack junky. I have not trained one this hard since her great great granny around 20 yrs ago, but she had a different way of expressing her addiction to adrenalin. I showed her recently in open obedience and she passed all the moving exercises. I would have flunked her heeling--- it was last in the pattern and she began to squeal and pop out of heel position lining up for Fig 8 which was first; we did that okay but there was verbalizing and bumping on the left post. Halfway through the rest of the heeling pattern, the vocalizing bublled up out of her and after she caught up, she spent the rest of the pattern more or less trying to head me. I asked to be excused from the groups as we have had dog fights at local shows recently, and I figured she didn't need to add to that already touchy atmosphere, while she is not particularly dog aggressive, could have been a target.
In her behalf, we'd had a car breakdown and she basically went cold into the ring, she might have been able to hold it together a bit more with being there and working a few things beforehand. Me, too.
Ann & Selena, this bitch just turned 6:roll:

Julie Kinsey, long time obedience person & frequent reader here


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## tracey schneider

This post is getting me motivated \\/. 

I have a young female here that I am just getting into and she is also hetic or maybe spaztic is a better word. Loses her freaking mind over everything and anything. Everything I do is calming and slow and she still explodes.... To add to that she is a pretty hard bitch and but mostly very resilient so we have had some battles for sure, sometimes one after another after another after another](*,). I honestly love her and cant stand her all at the same time:evil:. I admit she can piss me off like no other, man she knows how to push my buttons  

Ive always said I like a good challenge in training... after reading this thread, Im going to take this as an opportunity for such... She is unlike any dog I have ever had but when she gets something she does it very fast and quick. 

Jeff you had some good posts here...

t


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Except that with some dogs, all the ass whupping in the world isn't going to get you the precise work you are after; whichin a lot of our cases--trial field passing scores. This isn't about manners crap around the house. So there has to be another art form to get through to them. Tracy what corrections have you used so far. Has it mattered? What makes her hectic?


Terrasita


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## Alice Bezemer

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Except that with some dogs, all the ass whupping in the world isn't going to get you the precise work you are after; whichin a lot of our cases--trial field passing scores. This isn't about manners crap around the house. So there has to be another art form to get through to them. Tracy what corrections have you used so far. Has it mattered? What makes her hectic?
> 
> 
> Terrasita



I have to ask this...why is it when corrections are talked about you immediatly assume it is an asswhooping ?

corrections come in many shapes an sizes and dont consist of an asskicking alone....every dog is different and therefore needs a different aproach..I have had dogs that took words as corrections, I have had dogs I had the socalled Come to jezus talks with...and I had dog that had their share of asswhooping and then some....It all depends on the dog infront of you to begin with...dont you think its a bit harsh to immediatly asociate corrections with kicking, hitting or slapping ?


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Alice Bezemer said:


> I have to ask this...why is it when corrections are talked about you immediatly assume it is an asswhooping ?
> 
> corrections come in many shapes an sizes and dont consist of an asskicking alone....every dog is different and therefore needs a different aproach..I have had dogs that took words as corrections, I have had dogs I had the socalled Come to jezus talks with...and I had dog that had their share of asswhooping and then some....It all depends on the dog infront of you to begin with...dont you think its a bit harsh to immediatly asociate corrections with kicking, hitting or slapping ?


 
I have no idea what Jeff means by an ass whupping or Sara's slapping the dog around or Ann's come to jesus. That's why its a terms war. Obviously ass whupping/kicking means one thing to you. For all I know, it could be a helluva collar correction. I don't immediately associate anything which is why I ask--what did the dog do, what did the handler do. Even the word hectic---does it mean the same to everyone? You have a lot of phrases that mean different things to different people.

T


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## Sara Waters

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Sara Waters said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sara,
> 
> I'm trying to picture this from a livestock perspective. When you say he gets excited, what does he actually do. I'm also trying to picture you slapping around a BC. I have a load/explode bouv so I'm trying to picture what is going on with your BC. When Khira was younger, correction amped her. She's hard enough from a touch standpoint that in drive, like a lot of bouvs, she doesn't feel much. She's become more sensitive to a correction at this age or at least noticing that I'm not happy with what's she's doing. However, if she loads, its gonna be a distance away from me or she takes off at such a speed, I'm not going to be able to shut it down. Right now I'm experimenting with something off stock. She amps and gets absolutely stupid over her food in her bowl. This way I can get to her in that state of mind. Really on stock, I can't. I can get to her after the explosion and lie her down---big deal. Doesn't mean diddly, the next time she is triggered. I'm trying to visualize the lie down as keeping him from getting excited. What's the excitement trigger?
> 
> T
> 
> 
> 
> The trigger is working livestock. He wants to race around and do his own thing on stock. He doesnt want to slow down and listen to me, he is in such a hurry and so excited by them and likes to crowd them. I just will not tolerate this. He does know better as he understands the wait and lie down commands and he also knows he is to work them quietly and not up their bums.
> 
> So if he rushes them or comes in fast slicing I quietly say lie down, I then push him out. I work him in a semi circle and that I draw in the dirt and work him on that arc. If he tries to rush in, I push him out and lie him down and start again. If he gets up their bums without reason I lie him down and allow him to walk forward once they stop.
> 
> Any sign of crowding and down he goes. Oh believe me he is getting the message - work quietly and at an appropriate distance for the situation and he gets to keep working. Try his nonsense and he gets to lie down. He is a smart boy, he knows exactly what I want and dont want and he is becoming easier to work with everytime I go out.
> 
> When I say slap him around it is just terminology. There are occassions where he gets so hyped up I just have to grab him and smack him. He immediately calms down and starts to listen. These incidents are becoming less and less. I dont like smacking dogs particularly and have never had to do it with any of my other dogs.
> 
> His mother is very much the same and she was given to a farmer who has 10,000 sheep as she was way to much of a handful on small numbers of sheep and needs heavy duty work. I dont have that sort of scale so I work with what I have.
> 
> I praise him when he works quietly and effeciently and he gets corrected when he slices, pushes, ignores me etc. Simple as that really. He is a dog I have to keep control of or instill in him the appropriate way to work sheep or he quckly becomes so excited it in turns into almost and obsessive compulsive running around after sheep.
> 
> He is not like this in agility and is very fast and in control and listens to me, I never have to correct him in this venue. Sheep just push him up another notch.
> 
> I am simply not going to tolerate exploding on sheep, simple as that. He has amazing speed when he needs it and has no need to explode. He is not a soft dog and does much better when he knows I am not going to tolerate any nonsense.
Click to expand...


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## ann schnerre

Terrasita Cuffie;278065... Ann's come to jesus.
[/QUOTE said:


> T, i have not had to do the "CTJ" meeting for more than my Tessa and Ike for my lifetime--and Ike took the lesson quickly (thank heavens i scared him BAD)...


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## Randy Allen

Does anyone have the foggiest notion of how old the OP's dog is?
How far along in their training they are?
What has been tried to cap this behavior before it occurs?



I'm not adverse to corrections, physical or otherwise, but all this talk of CTJ moments, ass-wupp'ns and getting another dog seems to be getting a little ahead of any questions that could be asked and answered.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

ann schnerre said:


> T, i have not had to do the "CTJ" meeting for more than my Tessa and Ike for my lifetime--and Ike took the lesson quickly (thank heavens i scared him BAD)...


Well, that's the best type to have--in and out and don't have to revisit it. However, it doesn't really say what the CTJ is. I just assume it doesn't involve cookies or a tug.T


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Randy Allen said:


> Does anyone have the foggiest notion of how old the OP's dog is?
> How far along in their training they are?
> What has been tried to cap this behavior before it occurs?
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not adverse to corrections, physical or otherwise, but all this talk of CTJ moments, ass-wupp'ns and getting another dog seems to be getting a little ahead of any questions that could be asked and answered.


That's what I thought. Seemed benign enough and easily fixed. But then once he said the dog was correction sensitive, it becomes about having a spoiled crapper, alpha relationships and positive vs. correction. And not to be outdone, its back to the simple ridicule. Seems that if he can control what loads the dog [food/tug], its easily fixed.T


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## Kellie Wolverton

brad robert said:


> that doing the same thing she has done a thousand times she can get sloppy on thru being either over the top in drive or just being a complete over the top dick.Its making repeating an obedience routine with some accuracy a chore.


Are you, by any chance, working with a Beauceron?:twisted:

That sounds exactly like what my Beauceron will do when she is just plain bored. She does not perform well when I have her repeat something "a thousand times". I finally figured out that performing a "routine" over and over was just making her work suck. I broke it down into smaller pieces and only put it together once or twice , this was an aha moment for me :-o

Same with her stock work. She does much better when we are doing various chores...and she has to think on the go. She stays more focused because she is not sure what is coming next :mrgreen:


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Kellie Wolverton said:


> Are you, by any chance, working with a Beauceron?:twisted:
> 
> That sounds exactly like what my Beauceron will do when she is just plain bored. She does not perform well when I have her repeat something "a thousand times". I finally figured out that performing a "routine" over and over was just making her work suck. I broke it down into smaller pieces and only put it together once or twice , this was an aha moment for me :-o
> 
> Same with her stock work. She does much better when we are doing various chores...and she has to think on the go. She stays more focused because she is not sure what is coming next :mrgreen:


Chores make sense.


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## Jim Nash

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> That's what I thought. Seemed benign enough and easily fixed. But then once he said the dog was correction sensitive, it becomes about having a spoiled crapper, alpha relationships and positive vs. correction. And not to be outdone, its back to the simple ridicule. Seems that if he can control what loads the dog [food/tug], its easily fixed.T


I agree with your last sentence . That's a possible answer to the problem . You did throw me off though . Expected a few big paragraphs , some clinical studies and having to break out the dictionary . Well done .


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## Kellie Wolverton

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Chores make sense.



LOL...not always out here on the funny farm...but sense or no sense she still has to do what I tell her too


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Jim Nash said:


> I agree with your last sentence . That's a possible answer to the problem . You did throw me off though . Expected a few big paragraphs , some clinical studies and having to break out the dictionary . Well done .


Yeah, that's how I distinguish my dogs. I have one that can analyze and problem solve with what's put in front of her and the other that's expect and react regardless of what is in front of her. She has the same issue with separating apples and oranges and the past from the present. But she's getting there and there may be hope for you.T


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## Jim Nash

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Yeah, that's how I distinguish my dogs. I have one that can analyze and problem solve with what's put in front of her and the other that's expect and react regardless of what is in front of her. She has the same issue with separating apples and oranges and the past from the present. But she's getting there and there may be hope for you.T


No , I'm a lost cause T you're way too smart for me .


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: 
Except that with some dogs, all the ass whupping in the world isn't going to get you the precise work you are after;

Maybe not for you, you are a girl, and are scared to do what it takes, as you will lose. I will not lose, and that is the difference. 

Motivation is not just what makes the dog happy with some dogs. Motivation is you better do it, and do it right, or I am going to administer an awful lot of pain. 

Shutting down is a sissy term. It means the dog has won the battle, and so it is more likely to do it again. I don't think that sit, down, heel, are so impossible for a dog to understand that I need to fart around with 40 different methods of positive time wasting. You sit, and sit fast, or you get wacked in the head. You stay on my left side, or you get strung up. 

Dogs always test you. If you have confidence that your foundation is good, then you go to step number two, which is, do it.

I tried that positive only happy horseshit for two years. All that happened is my dog became very creative in figuring out he could get out of shit by being an idiot. 

Quote: 
I have no idea what Jeff means by an ass whupping

Then you are dumber than I thought.


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## brad robert

WOW talking about jumping to conclusions and ridicule or claiming she is a crapper and spoilt.On the contrary really.

Id like to thank lots of you guys for your input and some of you for keeping it on track and not just telling me to give my dog a ass whooping.

terrasita,rick,alice and a couple of others i agree with what you say and think this is easily fixed but sometimes i have trouble seeing the forest for the trees.

So the dog is 3 and a gsd has a high level of understanding of what i want from her its just trying to polish her and put all her drive into my routines and make it look really nice and controlled.

And jeff this dog is not a shitter by any means either breeding wise or character.I personally have never owned a dog that i have had a deep bond with that didnt lower its ears when i scowled at it no matter what breed.She is not soft or a pussy she just knows when im not happy.And i so agree with what someone wrote that getting a dog in drive then correcting them for it just seems counterproductive to me?My answer is not to correct the ass of my dog everytime it does something wrong 20 years ago i trained koehler i have moved on(and positive is new to me) but im not naive enough to know everydog needs putting into line seriously when needed like most things in life i believe its about balance.

So i think people touched on it i need to control the dog and not reward hectic stuff and im not discounting a smallish correction might be needed but in the right mindset and not being pissed off.I agree that this is a problem i have created by building drive and rewarding her in psycho drive and she thinks its right.


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## Kellie Wolverton

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote:
> I don't think that sit, down, heel, are so impossible for a dog to understand that I need to fart around with 40 different methods of positive time wasting. You sit, and sit fast, or you get wacked in the head. You stay on my left side, or you get strung up.
> .


hmmm...now this gave me something to think about.

When we do chores I do not have time for silly shennaningans and she knows it. I cannot afford for her to get me hurt by not minding.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote:
> Except that with some dogs, all the ass whupping in the world isn't going to get you the precise work you are after;
> 
> Maybe not for you, you are a girl, and are scared to do what it takes, as you will lose. I will not lose, and that is the difference.
> 
> Motivation is not just what makes the dog happy with some dogs. Motivation is you better do it, and do it right, or I am going to administer an awful lot of pain.
> 
> Shutting down is a sissy term. It means the dog has won the battle, and so it is more likely to do it again. I don't think that sit, down, heel, are so impossible for a dog to understand that I need to fart around with 40 different methods of positive time wasting. You sit, and sit fast, or you get wacked in the head. You stay on my left side, or you get strung up.
> 
> Dogs always test you. If you have confidence that your foundation is good, then you go to step number two, which is, do it.
> 
> I tried that positive only happy horseshit for two years. All that happened is my dog became very creative in figuring out he could get out of shit by being an idiot.
> 
> Quote:
> I have no idea what Jeff means by an ass whupping
> 
> Then you are dumber than I thought.


No, I just don't assume. Let's see, did you hit him once---beat him into cowering submission. Did you use your hand, leash, other object?? Could he walk afterwards? But really, shutting down can also mean its confused--depends on the dog. The skies the limit on that one and irrelevant to me as long as you do it with yours and not mine. Refusal doesn't look the same as shutting down or you've scared the living crap outta me so I'm gonna just freeze. As for the lose, it comes down to what you care about. Sit, down, walk, heel is not a power deal for me. Bite the hand that feeds you--you can be six feet under for all I care. Its personal how you CHOOSE to get the behavior. At some point in breeding you have to look at trainability. Some have it. Some don't. If I really gotta resort to a 2 x 4 for something as little as sit, down, or heel, someone else needs to feed it.T


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## Terrasita Cuffie

brad robert said:


> I agree that this is a problem i have created by building drive and rewarding her in psycho drive and she thinks its right.


Bingo.


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## brad robert

This is the most trainable dog i have had in twenty years very quick to learn.

And yeah just what is an ass whooping it means different things to different folks??

And i think you are right terrasita my dog gets more confused then shuts down.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Kellie Wolverton said:


> hmmm...now this gave me something to think about.
> 
> When we do chores I do not have time for silly shennaningans and she knows it. I cannot afford for her to get me hurt by not minding.


What about when they prevent you from getting hurt by disobeying. I don't run into issues with the chores. She gets what I'm doing and she's looking out for for me. I can't afford to make it obedience only. Its the feeding to the panic of psycho sheep that's the problem. It has come up though--handler trial demeanor vs. chore/real demeanor.T


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## Kellie Wolverton

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> What about when they prevent you from getting hurt by disobeying. I don't run into issues with the chores. She gets what I'm doing and she's looking out for for me. I can't afford to make it obedience only. Its the feeding to the panic of psycho sheep that's the problem. It has come up though--handler trial demeanor vs. chore/real demeanor.T


My dog isn't performing out of obedience only. But she needs to be obedient regardless of what she may want to do. I have not yet been in a situation where the dog needed to be disobedient to save me. 

I suppose if I was going to get run down by a bull she would "save" me...LOL I hope I never have to find out


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: And jeff this dog is not a shitter by any means either breeding wise or character.I personally have never owned a dog that i have had a deep bond with that didnt lower its ears when i scowled at it no matter what breed.

I don't have many of those dogs. A couple, but it is more a learned response.

Quote: And i so agree with what someone wrote that getting a dog in drive then correcting them for it just seems counterproductive to me?

Quit skimming and re read what I wrote. The whole thing. I never mentioned punishing a dog for being in drive, and I did say that if she is hectic, then you did that yourself. If I didn't then I am now.

Quote: My answer is not to correct the ass of my dog everytime it does something wrong

There is your confusion, and your shutting down. 

Quote: but im not naive enough to know everydog needs putting into line seriously when needed like most things in life i believe its about balance.

Where is your balance now ? 

Here is what I am reading. Your dog is hectic, but that is not your fault. You do not believe in correcting every time the dog is wrong, causing confusion, and the shutting down, but that is not your fault. Your ego has left you shopping for opinions, and running to whoever's opinion is not as direct as mine is.

Do what you want with the dog, I won't be responding to this silly shit again.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Kellie Wolverton said:


> My dog isn't performing out of obedience only. But she needs to be obedient regardless of what she may want to do. I have not yet been in a situation where the dog needed to be disobedient to save me.
> 
> I suppose if I was going to get run down by a bull she would "save" me...LOL I hope I never have to find out


Yeah, my issues have been with cattle. But pouring feed for 100+ sheep or doing things with rams, dog has had my back with things I just didn't see coming. Have seen handler's make a bad call on the trial field and pay for it---dog was obedient. In one case it was on cows. Dog took a serious hit. I don't want that level of obedience. My guys seem to get the job of things and I'm not telling them stuff all the time. With the mature dog we get to the point where, if they don't instantly comply, I take another look at it. 9/10 they are right. Situation changed. Yep, being threatened aint pretty. Had a club member mauled by cattle--black and blue. Asked her where was her dog---she said the dog ran. Because I've worked sheep and cattle that will try to take out a handler and a dog-- I'm reluctant to go so far into obedience mode for sport. But I don't plan on getting involved in dog breaking cattle. Khira's number is up since I gotta go title to keep judging eligibility.

T


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## Kellie Wolverton

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Yeah, my issues have been with cattle. But pouring feed for 100+ sheep or doing things with rams, dog has had my back with things I just didn't see coming. Have seen handler's make a bad call on the trial field and pay for it---dog was obedient. In one case it was on cows. Dog took a serious hit. I don't want that level of obedience. My guys seem to get the job of things and I'm not telling them stuff all the time. With the mature dog we get to the point where, if they don't instantly comply, I take another look at it. 9/10 they are right. Situation changed. Yep, being threatened aint pretty. Had a club member mauled by cattle--black and blue. Asked her where was her dog---she said the dog ran. Because I've worked sheep and cattle that will try to take out a handler and a dog-- I'm reluctant to go so far into obedience mode for sport. But I don't plan on getting involved in dog breaking cattle. Khira's number is up since I gotta go title to keep judging eligibility.
> 
> T


LOL..off to change the batteries in my robot only for sport herding Beauceron


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Kellie Wolverton said:


> LOL..off to change the batteries in my robot only for sport herding Beauceron


 
Yeah, well if all it takes is batteries to turn Khira into a robot on light sheep in a 100 x 200 arena with a line course, let me know what batteries nd what voltage. The old school boys have told me that no matter how clean I require the work in a chore dog, it won't transfer to trialing--different doggie mindset. In the past I've been able to pull them off chores and tune them up for trialing. But those dogs didn't load in prey either. We'll see what working the new lambs and my zero tolerance attitude brings.


T


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## brad robert

Jeff your open to your interpretation and you think your correct so i guess that is your ego not mine.

You need to read and not skim as you said i did. I very simply said i was to blame read it right and if your going to qoute me get it right its my fault.

qoute:there is your confusion and now your shutting down.WTF does that mean that is useless.

qoute:where is your balance now? for FS learn to read and comprehend two times you have qouted me and come back with dribble.

Every time some one rights something on here you come back with your smart mouth crap and ridicule im personally sick of your ridicule .Your very first post on this thread was the same and it bores me so please, please do as you said and dont respond to my "silly shit" Maybe if it was a gay mondio question you would come up with something worthwhile cause if beating my dog is all you have your an idiot and 95% of your answers about training and behavioural problems your answer is" i give it an ass whooping" wow your the trainers trainer and i hang on your everyword.NOT!!

Why would you comment on accurate obedience you know nothing about it anyway.


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## Lisa Radcliffe

brad robert said:


> Who thinks that some dogs are just so hectic in drive its a real PITA to train them in accurate obedience.
> 
> MY girl has plenty of drive but she can just get so hectic in drive that doing the same thing she has done a thousand times she can get sloppy on thru being either over the top in drive or just being a complete over the top dick.Its making repeating an obedience routine with some accuracy a chore.


Are you talking about hectic drive that cannot be focused into a drive goal? What is her reactivity to other stimuli while in drive? what is the expression on your dogs face like? How do you get her into drive? when you say "she has done a thousand times" have you been competing with her or is this just in training? for some dogs hectic is a avoidence. Maybe she is just not well suited for what you want and that;s making her "over the top dick" maybe the help you seek is to really just read this girl and only you can do that, also some good advice here too. You don't mention if you have had succsess at all here before this but I asume you have. For me I have had to take thing back to baby steps with a dog before that I put to much pressure on and that helps, well I wish you luck!


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## brad robert

Lisa Radcliffe said:


> Are you talking about hectic drive that cannot be focused into a drive goal? What is her reactivity to other stimuli while in drive? what is the expression on your dogs face like? How do you get her into drive? when you say "she has done a thousand times" have you been competing with her or is this just in training? for some dogs hectic is a avoidence. Maybe she is just not well suited for what you want and that;s making her "over the top dick" maybe the help you seek is to really just read this girl and only you can do that, also some good advice here too. You don't mention if you have had succsess at all here before this but I asume you have. For me I have had to take thing back to baby steps with a dog before that I put to much pressure on and that helps, well I wish you luck!


yes i agree baby steps and refresh things from the start.And she has no problem putting drive into a goal but sometimes she is just so loaded or over the top achieving a simple task can be a pita she basically tries so hard she stuffs it up and if i withhold reward cause thats not what i want she will get even more drivey or frustrated and when the frustration seeps in she can make a mess of a routine.And i need to emphasise when i ask her to do something she knows what i ask there is no uncertainty she has been slowly trained and guided into knowing her positions etc,etc her frustration usually comes at her wanting the reward and wanting it now.And i must also say that these things she is screwing up are minute and are really small details.


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## Sara Waters

brad robert said:


> .I agree that this is a problem i have created by building drive and rewarding her in psycho drive and she thinks its right.


Yes well that s your answer then, you can hardly punish a dog for something you have delberately albeit unknowingly rewarded for and encouraged. I have to say I very rarely if ever use physical corrections in obedience and agility training but I do try and make sure that I am rewarding for is what I want and I break things right down and try and have a clear picture of what I am aiming for. Your dog has to learn that she only gets the reward for producing something you want. You need to set her up for success and that doesnt include being in psycho drive. Mark immediately and reward the instant she is doing something not in psycho drive even if it is only for a few seconds. It is all about the timing. They soon get the idea. I dont know, maybe start out in a more relaxed setting like going for a walk in heel.

My last major ass whopping was carried out last year on one of my ACDS that was very intent on seriously going after my sheep. She is as good as gold around them now because she knows she just has to look at them sidewards and I will warm her bum. She is not involved with livestock on my farm for a very good reason. But it was potentially a life threatening problem allround and had to be dealt with swiftly. So I do it if I have to.


My BC as I said does get the odd smack but it is pretty minor and only done when he starts to become deaf on sheep, and it does work or I wouldnt do it.


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## Sara Waters

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Yeah, well if all it takes is batteries to turn Khira into a robot on light sheep in a 100 x 200 arena with a line course, let me know what batteries nd what voltage. The old school boys have told me that no matter how clean I require the work in a chore dog, it won't transfer to trialing--different doggie mindset. In the past I've been able to pull them off chores and tune them up for trialing. But those dogs didn't load in prey either. We'll see what working the new lambs and my zero tolerance attitude brings.
> 
> T


A good farm working dog should be able to do a good trial as well as be a good farm worker I would have thought. These dogs tend to shine in the utility trials which is a mix of paddock and yard work and are often able to handle a wider range of sheep. A friend of mine trials with his best farm working dogs and usually does pretty well with them especially when they get difficult sheep. 

A good trial dog bred only for trialing say a specific type of trial like 3 sheep or yard could be more problematical as a farm dog.


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## Tracey Hughes

Hi Brad-

I have a couple of hectic type dogs right now so I can understand a bit of where you are coming from. 

What I do is actually put my dogs in drive, make them as crazy as I can for a tug, and then ask for obedience. I start with a sit with focus on me, and then once the dog can give me perfect attention and a solid sit in complete calmness would I even think about asking for anything more from the dog. If a dog cannot remain calm and focused while in a sit, down or stationary heel, adding movement isn’t going to help things. This type of work gets a dog prepared to “cap” drives later when in protection.

Has worked very well for me. Good luck with your dog!


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## tracey schneider

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Except that with some dogs, all the ass whupping in the world isn't going to get you the precise work you are after; whichin a lot of our cases--trial field passing scores. This isn't about manners crap around the house. So there has to be another art form to get through to them. Tracy what corrections have you used so far. Has it mattered? What makes her hectic?
> 
> 
> Terrasita


What makes her this way?.... she was born that way lol. She can thank her mother for the spaz and her father for the hardness. This is not created. I can deal with a dog that goes crazy for food or toys, been there done that kinda like it lol. This is not that. I have had quite a few high energy dogs, dogs that explode, dogs that are super easily motivated... she is not that. She has a hard time capping herself and thinking through it and maintaining focus. Just getting this dog to let me pet her for any length of time is and has been a training experience in and of itself. She loses it. Most of our more serious issues are in "manners" I guess you are calling it. When we are training, I am calm, patient, and the only correction she gets are verbal or a "hang" and when I say hang I mean light lift until calm and put down easy. Everything is about taking away with her. Praise, a giggle, a smile and she can lose focus and go into over load. So I have to be particularly focused when working her and timing with her is extremely important so she is testing me there. She is a smart dog and tries hard for me, no doubt... she just needs to cap better. I do think in time ie maturity and training she will come together... just gonna take more patience on my end.

Now that I read further, what the OP is describing in his dog is not what is going on with mine... 

Funny when picking her I took her as she was not the most dominate, a little more laid back etc.... not my "working pick" of the litter, I got her home and the truth came out. 

t


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## Sara Waters

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Yeah, my issues have been with cattle. But pouring feed for 100+ sheep or doing things with rams, dog has had my back with things I just didn't see coming. Have seen handler's make a bad call on the trial field and pay for it---dog was obedient. In one case it was on cows. Dog took a serious hit. I don't want that level of obedience. My guys seem to get the job of things and I'm not telling them stuff all the time. With the mature dog we get to the point where, if they don't instantly comply, I take another look at it. 9/10 they are right. Situation changed. Yep, being threatened aint pretty. Had a club member mauled by cattle--black and blue. Asked her where was her dog---she said the dog ran. Because I've worked sheep and cattle that will try to take out a handler and a dog-- I'm reluctant to go so far into obedience mode for sport. But I don't plan on getting involved in dog breaking cattle. Khira's number is up since I gotta go title to keep judging eligibility.
> 
> T


You know with herding I dont think it is completely about obedience. It is really about working to be able to shape a dogs natural instincts. Some dogs have it more than others. My kelpie seems to instictively know where to place pressure on sheep. She doesnt crowd them nor does she take her eye off them. I dont really need to say too much to her but she is in touch with both me and the sheep and I can slow her, bring her in or down her when I need, but she has good instincts and usually she disobeys me for good reason. The only corrections I use on her is to stop her and show her what I want and she gets it. If I am unfairly heavy handed on her she will refuse to work for me and I dont blame her. It is what her previous owner didnt like about her, but she and I get on fine.

I want the same with my BC but he tends to believe there is only him and the sheep and I need to make him understand that he is also working for me to get a job done and he also needs to learn to control himself and think more around sheep and for him I need a firm hand. He is not as smart as my kelpie and tends to dive into action without much thought. But I still like him and he is not afraid to tackle anything with vigour, just needs to mature a bit. I have tried a few different things with him and he responds best to me enforcing a few things when he starts to get out of control. He responds to praise as well so I have to get the balance and timing right, make sure I am correcting and praising at the right times and not stifling his natural instincts.

Herding is a balancing act really.


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## Amanda Caldron

ive seen it often and i always teach a new behavior with food because of this reason, even when it is clear and transitioned to a toy reward im calm in the fashion that i work the dog, no excitement! when the dog begins to get rowdy or hectic i calmly choke, just lifting the dogs front feet for a quick second... if the dog is familiar with this as a correction to calm there should be no fight. sometimes that still doesn't work and i put the dog in a down and remove myself and reward from the picture for a moment, that way youre achieving a behavior by the dog downing and giving him a task to think about other than the reward and removing the reward and game as a whole for the time being. i notice the dogs that ive worked with that overload in drive tend to over stimulate with a prong or e collar correction. ive also seen some that shut down or become confused about the overall task due to over correction. be sure the dog knows the exercise and understands the behavior you are looking for, work calmly and for a lesser valued reward, only reward positive behavior. if none of the above work you may have to go to exericse prior to training, or no work no reward and put the dog up each time the dog gets too hectic theyll eventually learn they are not achieving their goal by that behavior. best of luck let us know what works for you


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Tracey Hughes said:


> Hi Brad-
> 
> I have a couple of hectic type dogs right now so I can understand a bit of where you are coming from.
> 
> What I do is actually put my dogs in drive, make them as crazy as I can for a tug, and then ask for obedience. I start with a sit with focus on me, and then once the dog can give me perfect attention and a solid sit in complete calmness would I even think about asking for anything more from the dog. If a dog cannot remain calm and focused while in a sit, down or stationary heel, adding movement isn’t going to help things. This type of work gets a dog prepared to “cap” drives later when in protection.
> 
> Has worked very well for me. Good luck with your dog!


 
I think this approach kinda goes along with Balabanov's "The Game--" something I wish I would have known about when Khira was a puppy. Thinking about it, I decided she loads just as much during feeding time--high pitched screams and barks. Its not off food treats but tied to feeding time with her bowl. So last night--new rule. No screaming and barking while I feed. One of the things I work on with stock is releasing pressure and going away from the stock; especially when she wants to come in. First night she went about 30 feet [on a send out type thing] which is her usual working distance. When I said "no" and resent, she started that frustrated snapping turtle bark. She'll do that in some of those rote training stock sessions as well. By the end of the first session, I had her going about 50 feet with having to say the command twice. She gets to the end, I mark/reward. Last night, she ran out 60 feet full speed. I put an end point to it [platz] and then left/right directionals with mark/reward. Funny part about it is that she doesn't go right to the food bowl when she gets close to it. She comes to me first--as for permission. Says something about the pack aspect of it. It was going pretty well when she decided game over and went to the front porch. This isn't shut down--its refusal. She'd much rather go in the house and eat a free dinner. I've seen this before and her brother is notorious for "sorry, don't feel like working today." We had a couple of in your face "no" and me going back out and calling her and putting her back to work--still working mark reward. She then wanted to play tug and didn't run ahead to the house even when I freed her up. She chose to walk along with me. I've been thinking about approaching it this way for a long time but never took the time to do it. When we worked Thunder on releasing pressure with his tug and the game, he transferred it to his stock work. I'm hoping this will transfer to stock. But its the GSD brain vs. the dutch stuff. We'll see.

T


----------



## Howard Gaines III

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> ...
> This is where training is an art...


 Finally...something worth reading!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!\\/
The balance between the command and the reward...mixed with proper timing.


----------



## Lisa Radcliffe

brad robert said:


> yes i agree baby steps and refresh things from the start.And she has no problem putting drive into a goal but sometimes she is just so loaded or over the top achieving a simple task can be a pita she basically tries so hard she stuffs it up and if i withhold reward cause thats not what i want she will get even more drivey or frustrated and when the frustration seeps in she can make a mess of a routine.And i need to emphasise when i ask her to do something she knows what i ask there is no uncertainty she has been slowly trained and guided into knowing her positions etc,etc her frustration usually comes at her wanting the reward and wanting it now.And i must also say that these things she is screwing up are minute and are really small details.


"If I withhold reward cause that's not what I want she will get even more drivey or frustrated" this statement may be the key to all your problems and yes I think you have caused them. One thing I have done before with my young male who can be very ball aggressive is to only train with food, then on the last excersize he will be released and get his ball!! then just fun stuff fast sitz fast platz then lot's of running and ends on a great note. Now that I have the control I want we only train with the ball but it took awhile and now and then I mix it up with food too. You will reach your goal! I have got some really great training tips on your post as well lot's of very good advice  Now just start to apply a few and see what works and before you know it you will have the picture perfect training you seek!! keep it fun, end it with fun ) your goal is not KNVP here and giving corrections that are badly timed to a hectic dog will not work for a long OB goal IMO.....


----------



## Lynda Myers

tracey delin said:


> What makes her this way?.... she was born that way lol. She can thank her mother for the spaz and her father for the hardness. This is not created. I can deal with a dog that goes crazy for food or toys, been there done that kinda like it lol. This is not that. I have had quite a few high energy dogs, dogs that explode, dogs that are super easily motivated... she is not that. She has a hard time capping herself and thinking through it and maintaining focus. Just getting this dog to let me pet her for any length of time is and has been a training experience in and of itself. She loses it. Most of our more serious issues are in "manners" I guess you are calling it. When we are training, I am calm, patient, and the only correction she gets are verbal or a "hang" and when I say hang I mean light lift until calm and put down easy. Everything is about taking away with her. Praise, a giggle, a smile and she can lose focus and go into over load. So I have to be particularly focused when working her and timing with her is extremely important so she is testing me there. She is a smart dog and tries hard for me, no doubt... she just needs to cap better. I do think in time ie maturity and training she will come together... just gonna take more patience on my end.
> 
> Now that I read further, what the OP is describing in his dog is not what is going on with mine...
> 
> Funny when picking her I took her as she was not the most dominate, a little more laid back etc.... not my "working pick" of the litter, I got her home and the truth came out.
> 
> t


Wasn't going to response but get a heads up about your dog because she sounds so much like Kandy.
What you have just described was my female Kandy (rip) almost to a" T". And I can tell you right now corrections are not the best answer. I realize that's something your not completely willing to embrace. But this type of dog functions on a whole nother plane and you have to approach it differently. What I can tell is they do learn fast once you get in and soak up training like a sponge. Because they connect the dots very well and are actually very easy to train. Short (5-10 minutes) fast pace sessions worked best with Kandy. 
In the beginning I didn't focus or worry about capping her drive. All my focus went into what motivates her the best and from there worked on teaching the behaviors necessary for the BH and the 1. Honestly was the easiest to train but hard to trial with. Because while she could handle a hard correction she was sensitive trial nerves. She was the first dog I trialed...Bob and Terrasita both can tell ya I literally sang through the entire bh pattern and didn't even realize it.#-o Poor dog didn't have a chance!:grin:


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Lynda Myers said:


> Wasn't going to response but get a heads up about your dog because she sounds so much like Kandy.
> What you have just described was my female Kandy (rip) almost to a" T". And I can tell you right now corrections are not the best answer. I realize that's something your not completely willing to embrace. But this type of dog functions on a whole nother plane and you have to approach it differently. What I can tell is they do learn fast once you get in and soak up training like a sponge. Because they connect the dots very well and are actually very easy to train. Short (5-10 minutes) fast pace sessions worked best with Kandy.
> In the beginning I didn't focus or worry about capping her drive. All my focus went into what motivates her the best and from there worked on teaching the behaviors necessary for the BH and the 1. Honestly was the easiest to train but hard to trial with. Because while she could handle a hard correction she was sensitive trial nerves. She was the first dog I trialed...Bob and Terrasita both can tell ya I literally sang through the entire bh pattern and didn't even realize it.#-o Poor dog didn't have a chance!:grin:


Kandy was HAPPY and very social and so is Lynda so they clicked. Some might call it hyper especially when touched, but she was drivey and willling to please. Once she understood it, she gave what you asked. As for the BH, Kandy was staring at the imposter that was in another world singing and didn't know it. She worked for the rewards so reproduced the reinforced behaviors. But with that training, the focus was on getting the behavior and rewarding the behavior and ignoring anything else. Pretty soon the unwanted stuff faded---at least in the work context.


T


----------



## tracey schneider

Linda, sorry about Kandy... O

As for the rest we really look at things differently lol. I suspsect in person not so much, but online... yeah... :lol:

Just for the record, I dont train any dog to any set criteria ie corrections no corrections what worked on the last etc. i train the dog in front of me to what it needs and adjust as necessary. So I can only look at her and have her tell me what she needs. :grin: With that said, I like a certain type of dog, like to see certain responses and, as Jeff put it, will not dance around something that can be fixed easily. Its just another form of communication I embrace 

I dont know if we are miscommunicating or maybe Im further along than what you are describing... but I dont understand how you can train ob without capping drive unless you are trying to build it which I am definitely not trying to do. Anytime you ask a dog to sit for any length of time they are capping drive.... this is the fundamentals of training... control and thinking through the control. With her I have to focus on this, she needs calming and capping to get her to use her nutty little brain. lol

honestly I dont think she is all that different, just annoying as hell lol and requires more patience on my end and much smaller longer steps than what I am used to... but thank you for offering up your experience :grin:. 

By the way did you get any points off for singing?  I can honestly say, Ive never seen anyone do that lol.

t


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## tracey schneider

correction



> Anytime you ask a dog to sit for any length of time they are capping drive.... this is the fundamentals of training... control and thinking through the control.l


I am speaking of a specific type of dog here.. obviously some dogs have not much to cap.


----------



## Bob Scott

"By the way did you get any points off for singing?







I can honestly say, Ive never seen anyone do that lol."

Lynda is a very quiet singer. We didn't even notice it except for her going into and around the group exercise. She didn't even know she was doing it until we told her. :roll: :lol: :wink:


----------



## tracey schneider

thats really pretty funny... obviously having fun and relaxed? Im too busy counting and recalling the next move lol


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

tracey delin said:


> Linda, sorry about Kandy... O
> 
> As for the rest we really look at things differently lol. I suspsect in person not so much, but online... yeah... :lol:
> 
> Just for the record, I dont train any dog to any set criteria ie corrections no corrections what worked on the last etc. i train the dog in front of me to what it needs and adjust as necessary. So I can only look at her and have her tell me what she needs. :grin: With that said, I like a certain type of dog, like to see certain responses and, as Jeff put it, will not dance around something that can be fixed easily. Its just another form of communication I embrace
> 
> I dont know if we are miscommunicating or maybe Im further along than what you are describing... but I dont understand how you can train ob without capping drive unless you are trying to build it which I am definitely not trying to do. Anytime you ask a dog to sit for any length of time they are capping drive.... this is the fundamentals of training... control and thinking through the control. With her I have to focus on this, she needs calming and capping to get her to use her nutty little brain. lol
> 
> honestly I dont think she is all that different, just annoying as hell lol and requires more patience on my end and much smaller longer steps than what I am used to... but thank you for offering up your experience :grin:.
> 
> By the way did you get any points off for singing?  I can honestly say, Ive never seen anyone do that lol.
> 
> t


How far along are you. Its hard to tell when you say she has to calm to use her nutty little brain. If its as you suggest [i.e. further along], what's the problem. Sounds like just a personality difference. How old is she? You tell the engergizer bunny to sit and it does--capped. Now they may be wiggly all over, but they sat. The focus on how to get the reward, puts them in thinking mode and that caps. Now when you release them, they are all over the place. But that's easy--put them back to work. Its kinda more like life with the hyper-reactive dogs. If I think about it I actually have one of those---Mikha [Khaiba's sister]. But boy does she learn quick and it makes for very flashy obedience. Now if I can just get her to quit with the possum kills.

Terrasita


----------



## tracey schneider

In context to the post, its not "in the beginning" and its far enough along that I dont have to spend time "finding what motivates her".... far enough along to know that a simple hanging will help calm her down along with slow strokes and calm soft praises. At least long enough to think. Im not looking for advice on how to train her not sure where that came into play? I can train this dog she is absolutely trainable I just need more patience on my end.

Yeah um, personality difference... I thought that was clear lol. I LOVE alot about her but she definitely annoys the crap outta me. If she was a softer dog or more sensitive, it would probably be fine... but a hard dog like this takes ALOT of patience. Id rather keep the hard and get rid of the stupid to be honest... and by stupid I dont mean her intelligence. [-(

"The focus on how to get the reward, puts them in thinking mode and that caps." 

I dont think you understand what I am saying about this particular dog... 

t


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

tracey delin said:


> In context to the post, its not "in the beginning" and its far enough along that I dont have to spend time "finding what motivates her".... far enough along to know that a simple hanging will help calm her down along with slow strokes and calm soft praises. At least long enough to think. Im not looking for advice on how to train her not sure where that came into play? I can train this dog she is absolutely trainable I just need more patience on my end.
> 
> Yeah um, personality difference... I thought that was clear lol. I LOVE alot about her but she definitely annoys the crap outta me. If she was a softer dog or more sensitive, it would probably be fine... but a hard dog like this takes ALOT of patience. Id rather keep the hard and get rid of the stupid to be honest... and by stupid I dont mean her intelligence. [-(
> 
> "The focus on how to get the reward, puts them in thinking mode and that caps."
> 
> I dont think you understand what I am saying about this particular dog...
> 
> t


So what is she doing when you hang her. 


T


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## Joby Becker

is this a "hang" or a simple lift?


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## tracey schneider

Lift go back a few pages where I describe it...


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## tracey schneider

Terrisita, I'm really not going to go back and forth on this for another 10 wasted pages... so you can understand, it matters none to me if you understand lol. I don't have that desire or energy that you seem to have for that on the boards. I've said all I'm going to say as far as I'm concerned. Not trying to be a jerk... honestly... I just don't care, have the time, or energy to try and explain something on the internet that really matters zilch to me if you get.

T


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## Alice Bezemer

tracey delin said:


> Terrisita, I'm really not going to go back and forth on this for another 10 wasted pages... so you can understand, it matters none to me if you understand lol. I don't have that desire or energy that you seem to have for that on the boards. I've said all I'm going to say as far as I'm concerned. Not trying to be a jerk... honestly... I just don't care, have the time, or energy to try and explain something on the internet that really matters zilch to me if you get.
> 
> T



awwwww what a spoilsport you are tracey  just got me some beer and some popcorn to enjoy the topic!

we wanna know what it is that makes this happen! we want to know why it happens, we want to put terminology to good use and perhaps do the whole psycology thing and explain it all to death! 

so when you say you just dont care ? what do you feel at that moment when the words cross your mind ? and when you speak of energy to explain....do you mean positive or negative energy? :lol:

 inquiring minds want to know :mrgreen:


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## Tracey Hughes

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> So what is she doing when you hang her.
> 
> 
> T




I would guess…not much:razz:

I own the seemingly calmer sister to Tracey’s dog. I have worked hard at getting and keeping her under control, hanging has worked well for me in gaining control on her and getting clean outs. 

To work these sort of dogs with positive only would get you nowhere. The biggest problem I am seeing in Schutzhund currently is trainers who won’t correct a dog expecting that dog to be able to be controlled in protection when they should be in high drives. It just doesn’t work that way, and to train without corrections in obedience and then use heavy corrections in protection, without teaching the dog how to avoid them is just unfair to the dog, and is probably one of the biggest reasons you see conflict between handler and dog in bite work.


----------



## tracey schneider

Alice Bezemer said:


> awwwww what a spoilsport you are tracey  just got me some beer and some popcorn to enjoy the topic!
> 
> we wanna know what it is that makes this happen! we want to know why it happens, we want to put terminology to good use and perhaps do the whole psycology thing and explain it all to death!
> 
> so when you say you just dont care ? what do you feel at that moment when the words cross your mind ? and when you speak of energy to explain....do you mean positive or negative energy? :lol:
> 
> inquiring minds want to know :mrgreen:



Goodness that was funny... I literally laughed out loud.... quite a bit too. All in good fun of course.


----------



## susan tuck

Alice Bezemer said:


> awwwww what a spoilsport you are tracey  just got me some beer and some popcorn to enjoy the topic!
> 
> we wanna know what it is that makes this happen! we want to know why it happens, we want to put terminology to good use and perhaps do the whole psycology thing and explain it all to death!
> 
> so when you say you just dont care ? what do you feel at that moment when the words cross your mind ? and when you speak of energy to explain....do you mean positive or negative energy? :lol:
> 
> inquiring minds want to know :mrgreen:


Oh Alice, you always crack me up! I am reminded of a sign I saw on a woman's desk:
"I have flying monkeys and I'm not afraid to use them"


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

tracey delin said:


> Terrisita, I'm really not going to go back and forth on this for another 10 wasted pages... so you can understand, it matters none to me if you understand lol. I don't have that desire or energy that you seem to have for that on the boards. I've said all I'm going to say as far as I'm concerned. Not trying to be a jerk... honestly... I just don't care, have the time, or energy to try and explain something on the internet that really matters zilch to me if you get.
> 
> T


Hahahah, and in the grand scheme of things, it really matters zilch that you explain it. For Alice, there's something you missed somewhere---I don't train positive only. That wouldn't work with my bouv beyond the teaching phase. But it did give me a way to control the uncapping, so to speak. 


T


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## tracey schneider

great perfect lol.... so we are agree on something =D>


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## Brian Anderson

this thread has gone into the "forum hinterlands lol"


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## Alice Bezemer

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Hahahah, and in the grand scheme of things, it really matters zilch that you explain it. _* For Alice, there's something you missed somewhere---I don't train positive only. *_That wouldn't work with my bouv beyond the teaching phase. But it did give me a way to control the uncapping, so to speak.
> 
> 
> T


I never said or thought U did  im just amazed at the depth that you are willing to go into to do something with or to your dog when things can be so much easier to begin with....the only things I can see on most these topics these days are WHY does he do this, WHY does he do that....and then the thinkingpatern starts...hmmmm it must be this or that, maybe im not doing that right, or maybe im to hard or to soft, maybe he doesnt like it or like it to much....hell lets give it all a shot and see what I end up with then! there is so much thinking going on here that its scary......do you really think the dog sits there wondering what it can do to ruin your trainingday? do you really think he go into his thinking in depth and decides on the for him best way to **** up an exercise ? Do you really think your dog knows its a BOUV and mine knows its a Dutchie? hell NO...it knows you are going to do something today and he is going to react in a certain manner to what you do....no indepth thinking about it needed from either sideif you do THIS he will react like THAT...its looking at your dog and seing what he is doing that is important...watching him react to your actions that will help you train and teach it things....indepth thinking has no place in the whole thing.

I think the biggest mistakes people make is that:

1 they think their dog has a reasoning behind what its doing
2 their dog knows which breed it is and therefor acts like that breed dictates
3 that their dog actualy can talk and at some point in life will answer :lol:

The best things to keep in mind are (for me)

1 be in charge of your dog or it will take charge for you
2 show NO emotions whenever doing ANYTHING
3 dont think a dog does anything out of love, it does things out of neccesity and becoze it will improve something for him, theres no emotions to it.

and for gods sake dont start screaming at me now that your dog loves you people! Im sure he does, mine loves me to...BUT in the grand scheme of things for a dog its a wasted emotion...if it doesnt improve his situation it simply isnt important....hand your dog to me for 2 weeks and it will love me just as much (and forget me just as quickly when its out the door)


----------



## Jim Nash

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> So what is she doing when you hang her.
> 
> 
> T


This has been so intellectually stimulating . Thank you . 

This question in particular caught my attention since I was asked awhile back via PM from a member who had to resort to hanging . 

Basically here's what happened . As soon as the dog was lifted off it's front legs it went ; '' Ack , ack , ack , phhbbttttt , phhbbbbbttt, phhhhbbtt , ack , ack , bllacack , blllacak , blllacack .............." . It also flailed around then eventually became very calm , looking like Clint Eastwood at the beginning of that movie where the vigilanties get ahold of him . 

This person is very curious . What do you think is going on with this dog ?


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Jim Nash said:


> This has been so intellectually stimulating . Thank you .
> 
> This question in particular caught my attention since I was asked awhile back via PM from a member who had to resort to hanging .
> 
> Basically here's what happened . As soon as the dog was lifted off it's front legs it went ; '' Ack , ack , ack , phhbbttttt , phhbbbbbttt, phhhhbbtt , ack , ack , bllacack , blllacak , blllacack .............." . It also flailed around then eventually became very calm , looking like Clint Eastwood at the beginning of that movie where the vigilanties get ahold of him .
> 
> This person is very curious . What do you think is going on with this dog ?


You gotta go back and read. You have her terms screwed up---its a lift not a hang. But since you're into explaining, I really meant what was she trying to stop with the lift/hang or whatever it was. But this was brilliant. You keep working on it.

T


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Alice Bezemer said:


> I never said or thought U did  im just amazed at the depth that you are willing to go into to do something with or to your dog when things can be so much easier to begin with....the only things I can see on most these topics these days are WHY does he do this, WHY does he do that....and then the thinkingpatern starts...hmmmm it must be this or that, maybe im not doing that right, or maybe im to hard or to soft, maybe he doesnt like it or like it to much....hell lets give it all a shot and see what I end up with then! there is so much thinking going on here that its scary......do you really think the dog sits there wondering what it can do to ruin your trainingday? do you really think he go into his thinking in depth and decides on the for him best way to **** up an exercise ? Do you really think your dog knows its a BOUV and mine knows its a Dutchie? hell NO...it knows you are going to do something today and he is going to react in a certain manner to what you do....no indepth thinking about it needed from either sideif you do THIS he will react like THAT...its looking at your dog and seing what he is doing that is important...watching him react to your actions that will help you train and teach it things....indepth thinking has no place in the whole thing.
> 
> I think the biggest mistakes people make is that:
> 
> 1 they think their dog has a reasoning behind what its doing
> 2 their dog knows which breed it is and therefor acts like that breed dictates
> 3 that their dog actualy can talk and at some point in life will answer :lol:
> 
> The best things to keep in mind are (for me)
> 
> 1 be in charge of your dog or it will take charge for you
> 2 show NO emotions whenever doing ANYTHING
> 3 dont think a dog does anything out of love, it does things out of neccesity and becoze it will improve something for him, theres no emotions to it.
> 
> and for gods sake dont start screaming at me now that your dog loves you people! Im sure he does, mine loves me to...BUT in the grand scheme of things for a dog its a wasted emotion...if it doesnt improve his situation it simply isnt important....hand your dog to me for 2 weeks and it will love me just as much (and forget me just as quickly when its out the door)


 
Alice, you must have gotten all of the above from someone else. Haven't seen anythnig like it on this board posted by anyone--especially all the emotions mumbo jumbo and doggie love. You can save those rants for the flexi-lead crowed.


T


----------



## Jim Nash

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> You gotta go back and read. You have her terms screwed up---its a lift not a hang. But since you're into explaining, I really meant what was she trying to stop with the lift/hang or whatever it was. But this was brilliant. You keep working on it.
> 
> T


Gotcha , but what about my freinds dog ?


----------



## Tracey Hughes

I thought a Hang was a Lift too(front 2 feet off the ground). Damn dog terms..can’t keep them straight!


----------



## Alice Bezemer

Tracey Hughes said:


> I thought a Hang was a Lift too(front 2 feet off the ground). Damn dog terms..can’t keep them straight!



a hover then :lol: then all we need to find out if the tension that was left in the dogs hind legs was more on the left or on the right leg......MY GOD! we might be on to something here :mrgreen:


----------



## Joby Becker

Alice Bezemer said:


> a hover then :lol: then all we need to find out if the tension that was left in the dogs hind legs was more on the left or on the right leg......MY GOD! we might be on to something here :mrgreen:


need to know what side of the handler the dog was on for that, which way the dog was facing, the height of the handler, the arm length, and height of the dogs legs, and length of upper leg, and hock, and foot structure..and the length and elasitcity of the neck of the dog...to do a proper analysis..


----------



## tracey schneider

#-o =D> :lol:


----------



## Alice Bezemer

Joby Becker said:


> need to know what side of the handler the dog was on for that, which way the dog was facing, the height of the handler, the arm length, and height of the dogs legs, and length of upper leg, and hock, and foot structure..and the length and elasitcity of the neck of the dog...to do a proper analysis..



I agree with your analysis...would you agree that gender is also a factor to intergrate into this eqation ? and if female...where it would be post of pre heat cycle ? somany things to ponder on :?:


----------



## Brian Anderson

Alice Bezemer said:


> I agree with your analysis...would you agree that gender is also a factor to intergrate into this eqation ? and if female...where it would be post of pre heat cycle ? somany things to ponder on :?:


Alice you crack me up LOL


----------



## ann schnerre

gender would HAVE to come into the physics of this: intact/nuetered male, intact/spayed female, if intact female, OF COURSE cycle has to come into it (think blood flow affecting gravity/weight toward rear end)....

someone could get a PhD here in the states doing a study on this. seriously.


----------



## Joby Becker

most males are lopsided in distribution one side or the other, so if he is un-neutered, I imagine there should be a data field set aside for that in the database, purely for statistical purposes..


----------



## ann schnerre

good point joby--the data would have to be itemized for that alone, THEN entered into the larger study. (i guess i've never paid much attention to this in my dogs).


----------



## Alice Bezemer

hmmm this opens up a whole new field to ponder on.....

would the fact that a dog is bushyhaired or flathaired make a difference in drive ? I can imagine that a bushyhaired bushytailed dog would be prown to catch tailwinds ? hence capping its drive somewhat...now in a more or less obediant non dominate dog this might not be such an issue but what about a dominate male? they do after all tend to carry their tales high and proud! this would then also force the issue of the dogs grip while biting...fullgrip? regrip due to heavy winds? the mind absolutly boggles on the problems that might arise and how to solve them...perhaps shaving is an option


----------



## tracey schneider

I'm in tears laughing over here lol... You guys are too much, but the bottom line is.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxLpOmRHJlI&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Note the description of the video lol


----------



## ann schnerre

hey--i'm just trying to help out all the undergrads trying to figure out a major thesis to get a grad degree. and i think alice and i (and etc) have really been helpful here.


----------



## Alice Bezemer

ann schnerre said:


> hey--i'm just trying to help out all the undergrads trying to figure out a major thesis to get a grad degree. and i think alice and i (and etc) have really been helpful here.



im thinking piecharts next !


----------



## Bob Scott

Joby Becker said:


> most males are lopsided in distribution one side or the other, so if he is un-neutered, I imagine there should be a data field set aside for that in the database, purely for statistical purposes..



DAMN! Now you got me wondering if there really IS a reason I walk in circles when I'm lost??


----------



## maggie fraser

Bob Scott said:


> DAMN! Now you got me wondering if there really IS a reason I walk in circles when I'm lost??


Too much information Bob, I'll be having nightmares tonight, I walk in circles too when lost.....

Joby, how do you know about unequal distribution of weight/mass in the unneutered male? also, is it constant, or is it variable ? I know the answer to that, but do you ?


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## Joby Becker

maggie fraser said:


> Too much information Bob, I'll be having nightmares tonight, I walk in circles too when lost.....
> 
> Joby, how do you know about unequal distribution of weight/mass in the unneutered male? also, is it constant, or is it variable ? I know the answer to that, but do you ?


the same goes for breasteses in females...


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## maggie fraser

Joby Becker said:


> the same goes for breasteses in females...


Ahh Sooo, say no more.

Actually no, no say no more. We're talking about males.


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## will fernandez

Joby

so if you are saying that my left nut is bigger than my right then I am kind of scared...How did you know?


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## Joby Becker

will fernandez said:


> Joby
> 
> so if you are saying that my left nut is bigger than my right then I am kind of scared...How did you know?


saw your videos on redtube.com...


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