# Thanks Jeff Gamber



## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/belgian_malinois/pedigree/789130.html

Well got a new friend at the house, he was giving to us by a friend in Tampa and was originally owned by Frankie Cowen and had a brevet put on him. This dog is a really nice dog. Hes super social and great in the house and travels a long distance like a champ, but knows when its time to work and also has a nice little edge to him with a sweet on and off switch. Has nice hunt drive for the ball and kong.Thanks Jeff will make sure hes got a good home. Jeffs also got a nice breeding coming up out of some really nice lines for the mali breed. Got to see both dogs and they are for real and this breeding should produce some nice pups, defently a breeding worth looking at if your looking for a new mali pup. Always been a dutch line guy and for owning my first non dutch line dog and can't complain about nothing when it comes to Apache.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Intersting pedigree on the very top side I see there is 20 years in between Helliot's father?


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Intersting pedigree on the very top side I see there is 20 years in between Helliot's father?


Couldn't tell ya fella, Dog was giving to us by a friend, and was originally imported by Frankie Cowen, he be the one to ask I guess. Maybe frozen semen or what, couldn't tell ya. Like I said it my first non dutch line dog so I honesty am not up enough on Apache's lines to talk about them I took him home for how he presented himself as a worker.:neutral:


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Intersting pedigree on the very top side I see there is 20 years in between Helliot's father?


Or maybe a misprint on the op's download of the pedigree and didn't know how to edit, like I said hell if I know:lol: I guess if somebody wanted to go through the hassle to find out by regi numbers u could but for me I don't care, all I care about is the picture in front of my face.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Good luck with him Harry, sounds nice!


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Good luck with him Harry, sounds nice!


Yea hes a super dog so far, I have only been around him now for about 5 days thats including FL time but hes seem to be a really cool dog. If you know something about his lines Tim please do share, I'm not being sarcastic, any knowledge is helpful


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Harry Keely said:


> Yea hes a super dog so far, I have only been around him now for about 5 days thats including FL time but hes seem to be a really cool dog. If you know something about his lines Tim please do share, I'm not being sarcastic, any knowledge is helpful


No I honestly don't but it stuck out when I saw that older boscaille dog and looked at the dates. I seriously dont know anything.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Timothy Stacy said:


> No I honestly don't but it stuck out when I saw that older boscaille dog and looked at the dates. I seriously dont know anything.


Cool Gotcha


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Bumped a old thread, sorry mods, but you guys can maybe get a feel for the type of dog he is overall from Frankie & Jeff's conversation.

Its the Tampa Bay Area Ring Thread.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Heres a little exerpt from Frankie on a description of Apache, and would have to say all is true and has been kept up nicely by Jeff & his help.

http://www.precisionk9inc.com/Site/Dogs For Sale.html


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Intersting pedigree on the very top side I see there is 20 years in between Helliot's father?


Hey Tim I guess its was the frozen stuff, I just found out he has been DNA, and hips and elbows have been shot and hes all good:-D


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## FRANKIE COWEN (Jun 3, 2008)

wow this is very strange to hear, someone told me about this thread( i havent been on message boards in months) and apache was sold again, it makes me sad but also makes me happy, i have seen apach moved a few times now , i do know jeff and him had a great bond , and he is such a good dog that falls in love with his handler, i hope he has adapted well, i hope you as the new owner will be working him even if its for fun, as he loves to work, , Yes i imported apache years ago when i went to france to compete in the coupe of france, i tested this dog persnoally when i was there and i purchased him, on the spot after testing a few dogs out there, I Purchased him partly becuase of his pedigree as i know his pedigree and the trraights of this pedigree very well, i have talked to his breeder and the owner of helliot over the and why the chose otto as the stud versus some of the other dogs, helliot was a dog the bread some very good workers and a few of them have competed in the coupe of france and one vlamy has won the coupe of france , as well as reino rocco brother who is another helliot son, i hope this clears up some things and please if you as his new owner have any questions on apache and i can help you please contact me  as i really liked him for the time i had him , i will tell the only reason i sold him was for me he was to easy to train and i need a challenge when im training dogs for myself or i get bored and that is the only reason i sold him, he was a very cool dog to have.
frankie cowen
www.precisionk9inc.com


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## FRANKIE COWEN (Jun 3, 2008)

vaniquier was born in 84 helliot born in 92


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## FRANKIE COWEN (Jun 3, 2008)

i dont know how to post pics on this , and like i said i just dont go on boards often but ill post pedigreee from helliot back for apache if i can figure this out to help u


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## FRANKIE COWEN (Jun 3, 2008)

well i hope i cleared things up little for you , if you other questions feel free to contact me , apache sire side throughs strong stuff , dogs like rocco are du val l'abbe ( same as land mechelar ) dogs like paddock came out of the old stuff (De La Cite Des Mauges) i gave u these names as they are in states and have been seen so people know how phyiscal and strong and dominat these dogs were, apache isnt dominant and that was the reason they bread otto, becuase otto calmed some of that dominance police dog mentality down and gave clearness to the dogs. if you look back the lines there some strong willed dogs in there and sometimes those dogs can be to much , just a tidbit on apache for ya .


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## FRANKIE COWEN (Jun 3, 2008)

harry if you are going to work apache and you ever want to bring him down here and do some training with him your more then welcome, i would love to see apache again anyway he was a very nice all around dog,

frankie cowen


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## jeff gamber (Feb 15, 2010)

Frankie, it was not an easy decision for me to place APache in a new home. My bond with him was great, probably one of the hardest decisions I have made in quite some time and I make a living at making decisions.

I imported a breeding pair that is requiring a lot of my time and attention and felt it was the best fit to Apache into a guaranteed home, kennel free, minimal crate time family. Harry is a good friend and due to a lifestyle change a dog like Apache suited him and his family well. I couldn't bear the thought to do a crate and rotate system with him or kennel him.

It's a decision I have to deal with every day, but I get daily updates on his progress and he is doing great and around a family 23/7.

Happy holidays Frankie, Harry & his fam, and my best bud Apache...


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## FRANKIE COWEN (Jun 3, 2008)

jeff 
i totally understand. when i sold him thats exactly what i did i sold him to a family he loves kids and family and great family protector, and it was tuff decision then also for me, but i knew being a family dog and a part time worker was what he was better suited then with me the way i push my competion dogs thats all they do is train compete train, that wasnt what apache was made up to do , he was just to loving and wanted that one on one attention , so i totally understand and i am glad you made the decision to place him vs let him just be one of the kennel dogs, this seems like a better sitution for him since things have changed in your sitution, he is a good dog and im EXTREMMLY glad u found him a great home him and i do realize place him must have been supert hard as a dog like him pulls on your heart strings , and rember his name is apach not apache lol (hidding joke between me and jeff) , harry i hope apache is fitting all your needs and from what it sounds like u seem to have a great home for him . 

frankie


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## FRANKIE COWEN (Jun 3, 2008)

timothy you are correct whom ever ( not me ) whom put up apache pedigree on the data base put up the wrong vaniguer as u see in my pedigree i posted is vaniquer with lof number son of espoir du boscallie 

whom ever posted the pedigree on apache on the pedigree put up vaniqueur boscaille he has a losh number and son of Qu'Rack du Bois d'Emblise

2 different dogs, the pedigree posted is correct pedigree and same as hos export pedigree that i am veiwing as i type this im sure someon when posted made mistake,


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## FRANKIE COWEN (Jun 3, 2008)

sorry so many mis types, thats what i get for multitasking lol. what im saying is the pedigree I posted for fathers side of apache is correct , its the same also on his export pedigree I was just looking at his export papers as i typed this, i guess when they entered his info on that pedigree data base that harry linked. some one entered the wrong vainguier, so ya timothy there was a mistake when they entered into the pedigree data base ( again not i) the one that apache comes from has lots more boscaille so look at the pedigree i posted to get the heritage on apache. i know for a fact were this dog comes from rocco dad is apache grandfather, hopei cleared this all up for everyone . good eyes timothy.
and harry give apache lots of love for me , and try not to let him give you a concusion like he did to me once, ill tell you that strory one day

frankie


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## FRANKIE COWEN (Jun 3, 2008)

jeff . if i knew u were placing apache i would love to take him. my sitution has changed alot i dont compete really anymore. i am down to one personaal dog r.occo and he almost 11 and been to replace him i been causualy looking for new ache would been perfect. harry if apache dont work out with u for what ever reason contact me love to have him back in my life


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Sorry Jeff & Frankie been out with the family doing a santa / train ride ordeal whoosh glad thats over with, way to many screaming kids. Sorry had to get that off my chest to someone:lol:. 

Apache is doing just fine handles the car rides pretty well for we spend alot of time driving around with our heads cut off. Hes doing nicely so far for not being a week home yet back here. Hes adopted very well and fast may I add. Came here with his head high, ears perked up and tail shooting to the sky like he owned the place forever. I have a 4 year old son that he does jam up with and recieves full body massages pretty often which he eats up. Also sleeps and lives loose here at the house so far so good knock on wood. Loves my wife and matter of fact sleeps on her side of the bed on the floor instead of a tempurpedic dog bed.

Loves to bum rush the door or the windows here or at the shop, we get alot of UPS and Fed Ex lately with the holidays and he loves to loose his shit and become a foaming at the month maniac. Me and the wife think its funny but don't think the shippers do, oh well screw them if they cant take a joke.

Haven't done to much work with him being that hes still brand new to our on the go lifestyles, but do have plans of some sort for him eventually of getting a cert of some sort. Got a little girl arriving on april third so I think he will do just fine with the new baby and will be working him with some of the local K-9 people and maybe some task force folks as well to keep up what you and jeff have done with him up to this point.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

FRANKIE COWEN said:


> jeff . if i knew u were placing apache i would love to take him. my sitution has changed alot i dont compete really anymore. i am down to one personaal dog r.occo and he almost 11 and been to replace him i been causualy looking for new ache would been perfect. harry if apache dont work out with u for what ever reason contact me love to have him back in my life


Will do Frankie, although don't think he will be going anywhere if the wife and my son have anything to say about it:wink:. But do venture in to WPB, went to college at palm beach atlantic years ago before it became a university. So we do make trips into palm beach, fort lauderdale, miami and fort meyers, orlando, tampa as well so maybe one of the times that I have him with me on a trip I get up with ya. 

Shoot me a PM with a cell number and I will give you a ring this weekend some time.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Hey Frankie joked around with my wife saying that a gentleman in PB wanted Apache if things didn't work out and if looks could kill I be dead and the comment was made that no money or no situation in the world could replace the smile on our sons face to have as he puts it a buddy in the house to play with again. Where in the same boat as you are with a old fart thats no longer to mobile and a 10 month old dutch import mali that stays outside because hes way to wired for my son anytime my son makes a move he locks in prey mode, which I will be listing for sale as soon as I get the chance too figure everything out. Where Apache just lays down and looks at him like whats wrong with him:lol:. Its rare to find a nice mali that knows how to work and also has such a nice on-off switch thats capable of being part of the family. Only my second one in upteen years.

Jeff this was just a joke buddy to see my wifes reaction which I knew already, I gave you my word and he will retire in this household like I told ya.8)


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## Drew Peirce (Nov 16, 2006)

Props to all three of you guys for putting the welfare and happiness of the dogs first and everything else second, thats what it's always been about in my book, and always will be.

Hope he does well with you harry..........


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Drew Peirce said:


> Props to all three of you guys for putting the welfare and happiness of the dogs first and everything else second, thats what it's always been about in my book, and always will be.
> 
> Hope he does well with you harry..........


Really don't have a doubt in my mind that he won't work out. Like Frankie said a asshole is fun to compete with but a double edge sword dog is hard to find and only comes in my book as a rarity that serves both purposes. Jeff can tell ya along with some others that I like the retarded type but am ready to take a break from all of that until the waters calm so having him should be cake walk around here for me and my wife both.


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## jeff gamber (Feb 15, 2010)

I would definitely like to thank Frank Cowhen, I have always looked up to him as a mentor and thank him for providing dogs like APache and beyond. He definitiely was the perfect family/personal dog. I was ready to take the next step in dogs, I don't know how to word hat when it comes to something like homing Apache, I just felt it was time and found a breeding pair I couldn's pass up on.

Frankie I know you are the holy grail when it comes to bloodline crossing so I posted both pedigrees here for your evaluation.

As for Harry, you are the straightest shooter I have met, and have a great family and deserve this dog. Thank you for your love for Apache.

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/belgian_malinois/pedigree/981490.html
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/belgian_malinois/pedigree/726876.html

I think Harry can attest that I worked and you would have been proud of the upkeep and foundation work that I built on from you Frankie.


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## jeff gamber (Feb 15, 2010)

Drew Peirce said:


> Props to all three of you guys for putting the welfare and happiness of the dogs first and everything else second, thats what it's always been about in my book, and always will be.
> 
> Hope he does well with you harry..........


Drew, thank you very much for that. Between hearing Harry's four year old say "thank you" on the phone and your post it makes it a little easier.

Happy Holidays to all


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## jeff gamber (Feb 15, 2010)

Frankie:

May have a pup for you out of my breeding if you can get a ring title on him.

Free of charge, litttle co-ownership deal 

www.extremeworkingdogs.com is my website


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## FRANKIE COWEN (Jun 3, 2008)

jeff i will take a look at the pedigrees and website next few days when i get a moment. its actually good to here that u have made the next step that u wanted. please accept my graditude for finding apache a great home. it been a while since we talked we have to catch up sonn give me a call sometime even after holidays im sure ur super bussy.. 

harry sounds like the whole family loves apache thats super awesome. im sure it will also qwork out he is a great dog and seems like u have great family envoirment for him. my number is 561 718 0796 feel free to call anytime. day time im working dogs night time im doing k9 security work till wee hours of am so i have no restrictions on when i recieve calls my phone on 20 hours a day the other 4 im sleeping lol.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

jeff gamber said:


> I would definitely like to thank Frank Cowhen, I have always looked up to him as a mentor and thank him for providing dogs like APache and beyond. He definitiely was the perfect family/personal dog. I was ready to take the next step in dogs, I don't know how to word hat when it comes to something like homing Apache, I just felt it was time and found a breeding pair I couldn's pass up on.
> 
> Frankie I know you are the holy grail when it comes to bloodline crossing so I posted both pedigrees here for your evaluation.
> 
> ...


I will and can attest to the upkeep of Jeff's work to everyone on here to the forum as Apache is a nice working progress of what I have been told that Frankie started and Jeff continued along with Jeffs new dogs all are great dogs of breed worthy and comparable to if not greats to add to whats all ready being produced by some of the big hitters on the east coast and out west from looking and visiting and talking with some of these others. Apache will continue hes journey although will probally be less sport oriented and more to the darkside, we will do what we can do with him for being 5.5 years old but will not force him into anything to take away from what he his and what has already been instilled in him.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

FRANKIE COWEN said:


> jeff i will take a look at the pedigrees and website next few days when i get a moment. its actually good to here that u have made the next step that u wanted. please accept my graditude for finding apache a great home. it been a while since we talked we have to catch up sonn give me a call sometime even after holidays im sure ur super bussy..
> 
> harry sounds like the whole family loves apache thats super awesome. im sure it will also qwork out he is a great dog and seems like u have great family envoirment for him. my number is 561 718 0796 feel free to call anytime. day time im working dogs night time im doing k9 security work till wee hours of am so i have no restrictions on when i recieve calls my phone on 20 hours a day the other 4 im sleeping lol.


Defently will do Frankie, I will give you a ring hopely this weekend if not early week. Putting finishing touches on things with home and the business so I can enjoy a holiday for once with the family. It will be interesting to see with my family rolling in from NY with Apache here he was social with me at Jeff's but that was three years of a bond. Hes already up my ass everywhere I go so hes already starting the bond so don't think we will have any sort of issues.


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## FRANKIE COWEN (Jun 3, 2008)

jeff , i looked at the pedigree u posted, i cant answer 100 percent if it matches or if it doesn't, That is because i dont know what YOU are trying to create in your breeding program. i will say this what i would expect is this ped that is going back to dogs like elgos on both sides and then back to arco tourbelle and bronco , with des pottios and your also going back to catrouche and g vito and g bibber, ( really L bibber forgot that private strory) . but i do expect with these lines that you will see more aggression then prey. quick reactive type dogs, with heaver fight then you might want for pure sport dog, the lines you going to breeding from ped you posted, would say to me you breeding heavy for more of a police type or psa type dog if thats what your trying to create then these lines and this pedigree should produce that, if you looking for a very sporty type dog whom can be in the all around dog and freind with no possesivness of reactiveness then i say this ped is not going to allow this.

hope this helps
frankie


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## jeff gamber (Feb 15, 2010)

Frankie:

Like I said, "you're the guru of bloodlines". Never cease to amaze me =D>. That is exactly what I am breeding for. I'm hoping that with the right handler they can convert their pups to compete in high sport if they so choose, but I really am trying to bring some of those described charachterisitcs out into the marketplace for the potential new handlers of any training discipline or breeding program.


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## FRANKIE COWEN (Jun 3, 2008)

Well dogs with asshole pasted on there snout never do well high level sport work (depending on the sport) , trust me i had a few of those that had that stamp posted on both sides of there snout. they are fun for others to watch but they not for who is handling them or who has trained them , and training them isnt all that fun . your always on them and the more your on them the less of that great bond u have at the end, and who honestly wants to be on there dog like that every day in training just to score well and sit on the poduim. dont get me wrong i love a strong dog. i just dont try to score super hight points with them anymore i do other things with them like hard dog and police type training and if they second slow to out whou really cares , as for me its unfair to train them in a manner to make them achieve something they are not genetically made up to do, 

frankie


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## FRANKIE COWEN (Jun 3, 2008)

you can raise one for me and when he between 14- 17 months ill come pic him up, im not a puppie guy for myslef ill train and help eveyone elses pups but for me i dont like doing puppies
to much time to much noise to many damm bathroom breaks lol


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Great thread for reading guys. Reading this thread, I realise how much is missing in my own breed. Life would have been simpler if the same knowledge had been available on the working side of airedales. Thanks for the read.


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## jeff gamber (Feb 15, 2010)

Frankie, I owe you my start and knowledge. I have a good imprinting and foundation program ready to roll with this litter and my upcoming breeedings. You just may have a stocking stuffer under your tree next year.


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## Drew Peirce (Nov 16, 2006)

We should hook up next time I'm down there frankie, seems like we share a lot of the same philosophies in the dogs........


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

FRANKIE COWEN said:


> Well dogs with asshole pasted on there snout never do well high level sport work (depending on the sport) , trust me i had a few of those that had that stamp posted on both sides of there snout. they are fun for others to watch but they not for who is handling them or who has trained them , and training them isnt all that fun . your always on them and the more your on them the less of that great bond u have at the end, and who honestly wants to be on there dog like that every day in training just to score well and sit on the poduim. dont get me wrong i love a strong dog. i just dont try to score super hight points with them anymore i do other things with them like hard dog and police type training and if they second slow to out whou really cares , as for me its unfair to train them in a manner to make them achieve something they are not genetically made up to do,
> 
> frankie


Sounds like a dog I know:-D Well said


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## FRANKIE COWEN (Jun 3, 2008)

Drew Peirce said:


> We should hook up next time I'm down there frankie, seems like we share a lot of the same philosophies in the dogs........



drew any time ur in this area please feel free to contact me , love to hook up 

frankie


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## FRANKIE COWEN (Jun 3, 2008)

jeff gamber said:


> Frankie, I owe you my start and knowledge. I have a good imprinting and foundation program ready to roll with this litter and my upcoming breeedings. You just may have a stocking stuffer under your tree next year.


jeff 
u dont owe me a thing, u had the eagerness to learn u had goals and u made them happen, i didn't do that you did,, i am very happy for you that u are were u wanted to be, i am also happy for the exictment that your showing for ur program and were u want it to be , thats awesome and i know u will make it succeed , if i can help you in any way just reach out i be there to help in anyway i can . congrads on reaching ur goals and setting new ones.

frankie


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Frank thanks for the clarification on Apaches pedigree, here is the revised pedigree that is now corrected Frank & Jeff.

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/belgian_malinois/pedigree/789130.html


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

We all know this forum is a big place for new posters, but I would like to thank my friend Jeff Gamber. I have known Jeff for along time and although he has posted some retarded posts here and there, but he really is a pretty good guy. Nice thing about him is he is a rarity of the dog world, when he tells you the dogs is this it is that wheter good or bad, if he tells you the dog will be somewhere it will be there, if you send your money you will get what you pay for. I had an opportunity to visit his dogs and kennels in a pretty urban nice setting in tampa, and I was impressed. He has imported some pretty cool, hard, and nice lines. I know this is arguable, but I say give the guy a chance. He's looking to make some good contacts and friends on the board and his dogs are pretty impressive.

Again, I just wanted to say thank you for the dog thats in my home with my family, his foundation, he's now getting very close to title in any suit sport, and I am laying the ground work for real life application scenarios at this time. His other dogs I evaluated WOW there pretty dam nice and I have seen alot of nice dogs that this country has to offer over the years. Not bad at all for a upstart.

Thanks again Jeff and I hope you enjoy the board.

you can check his website and dogs out at www.extremeworkingdogs.com


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