# Keeping drive without constant reward



## halie lenk

For those who don't know my previous posts, I have a rottweiler I am training for PSA (hopefully). It is my first working dog and first foray into the sport/working dog world He is 9 months old now. All of his obedience has been done Ellis style. Now my question is that I'm finding if he doesn't think I have a reward (food or ball) he does things at his own speed. He still does every command and maintains engagement. But its slow, and half-assed. If he sees I have a reward on me (I keep it in a pocket or held outside his head during heel) How do you get the dog to maintain that drive and 'flashyness' without essentially bribing him?


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## Mike Di Rago

Halie,
I space the rewards as the dog shows me he understands what I ask.So instead of rewarding every execution,I'll go to reward every 2-3 and then go to random rewarding.I keep training sessions really short at this phase.Could be 2-3 minutes but up the intensity and I make it more lively for him.Could be tone of voice,speed of execution etc.
Hope this helps.


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## Joby Becker

halie lenk said:


> For those who don't know my previous posts, I have a rottweiler I am training for PSA (hopefully). It is my first working dog and first foray into the sport/working dog world He is 9 months old now. All of his obedience has been done Ellis style. Now my question is that I'm finding if he doesn't think I have a reward (food or ball) he does things at his own speed. He still does every command and maintains engagement. But its slow, and half-assed. If he sees I have a reward on me (I keep it in a pocket or held outside his head during heel) How do you get the dog to maintain that drive and 'flashyness' without essentially bribing him?


how much correction have you used? ever use an ecollar?


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## rick smith

Halie
you wrote this : " All of his OB has been done Ellis style "

- literally speaking that is not true. the "Ellis style" clearly explains the basics of operant conditioning regarding choice of rewards, reinforcement rates as well as fading lures and rewards

Mike just posted about reinforcement rates that also conforms with "Ellis"

and Joby referred to corrections used when a dog clearly knows the command. that's also a part of operant conditioning that Ellis discusses and uses. he is not a "purely positive" trainer .. he uses all four quadrants 

i've only seen 3-4 of his dvd's .... but i know I heard it being discussed so i know he probably explains it in more than one dvd and he has turned out MANY !
- which is one of the reasons why i like his training style...he explains the "whys"

you may have the big picture regarding the Ellis system, but the devil is in the details and now you are seeing why they are important


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## halie lenk

Only verbal corrections so far. (well, besides for things like getting into the trash, etc) I've just started corrections with e-collar. Helps the speed of things. I figured it was time for corrections now, wanted to make sure I was on the right track with that thinking 

When I said 'all Ellis style' I didn't mean 100% literally. lol Just that all I've done so far is reward based obedience. I suppose I need to just take a step back and start fading the reward better. I'm definitely not trying to say I don't want to do corrections. I am a full user of them when needed. haha


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## halie lenk

Mike Di Rago said:


> Halie,
> I space the rewards as the dog shows me he understands what I ask.So instead of rewarding every execution,I'll go to reward every 2-3 and then go to random rewarding.I keep training sessions really short at this phase.Could be 2-3 minutes but up the intensity and I make it more lively for him.Could be tone of voice,speed of execution etc.
> Hope this helps.


Makes total sense. Thanks! I've been making sessions too long I think


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## Joby Becker

improper use of corrections and ecollar can sap drive and enthusiasm as well.


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## Connie Sutherland

Mike Di Rago said:


> Halie,
> I space the rewards as the dog shows me he understands what I ask.So instead of rewarding every execution,I'll go to reward every 2-3 and then go to random rewarding.I keep training sessions really short at this phase.Could be 2-3 minutes but up the intensity and I make it more lively for him. .....



Ditto!


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## Bob Scott

Ditto #2

In your instance the "reward" has become nothing but a bribe. Easy to do if you don't wean the dog down from being rewarded every single time it does the behavior.

The dog can pick up on your reward timing easily so you'll have to work on NOT creating a pattern to your "randomness" if that makes sense. 

Example

On heeling in the beginning you reward for the first step. Not a problem right?

Only if you continue to "randomly" reward that first, tenth, whatever.

Often a person gets the dog to do a full heeling pattern with out a random reward along the line. 

The dog figures that out and gives a sloppy exercise until you get close to that final few steps because it's learned THAT'S where the reward comes. 

The dog needs to learn that reward can come at ANY time along that heeling path. 

If you want to add corrections once you KNOW the dog completely understands the behavior the do so.


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## rick smith

Halie

lot of good suggestions coming out here and i'll bet you are thinking things like "yeah, that makes sense and actually i knew that already, etc etc"

the responses gave me a flash back to the TV guy (Cesar) who often says
"dogs live in the moment"
- call it whatever u want but i think it is true and applies here 

we all have a big picture in mind whenever we start training.
unfortunately we can't sit down and explain that to our dogs and all they respond to is what we do at each moment in the session
- how many "moments" are needed and at what pace we can apply them can only be determined by the individual dog and handler, but to be consistent it has to be based on a pre-planned system

we can always say how smart they are and how they will eventually "get it" with enuff repetitions, but i'm not so sure about that 

1. "reward based OB" .... is a lure a reward or a motivator ? what does it actually mean and what is the difference ?? are you motivating or rewarding ?

2. "use corrections only after the dog has learned the behavior" ... simple to understand but not so simple as to when to apply them and with how much force. are we "correcting" or are we nagging ? or are we killing drive ? 

if training was so simple we could answer all these questions in a thread by those who have been successful .... it doesn't happen that way //lol//

not much i can offer except to say get a good system, learn why and how to apply it and then DO it, but be VERY observant of the dog to learn how to read it better and better
- the great trainers i watch seem to read dogs better and adjust their methods to get more out of the dog they are working with .... results come quicker and with less conflict
- i also think people don't pick up on the subtleties being used because they are too "big picture" oriented 

stick with the Ellis system but study OC in more depth and be more observant of how he applies it and you can't go wrong in my opinion 

if it were easy ... it would be easy //lol//

my .02
good luck


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## rick smith

he's nine months so he is no longer a baby puppy and even tho you will get the usual "slow to mature" advice you also need to groom his training for your eventual target of PSA
- yes, cut back on the time for each set and watch how long each rep is, but do not start all over
- of course multiple short sessions are usually more productive than fewer and longer sets, but make SURE you are raising the bar. VERY easy to do this if you stay observant and keep it challenging 
- and just as easy to screw it up by adding to much conflict

* my personal preference would be to NOT separate the sessions into only bite work only and and OB only. 
- in my opinion if you mix them together it is easier for the dog to learn that there is always OB involved in bitework and vice versa, rather than take a "today is OB" and "tomorrow will be bite work" approach. this would seem more beneficial for a dog who will be doing PSA

ymmv


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## Bob Scott

Rick, would you put the OB together with the bite work if the OB isn't solid to distraction? The bite work is a HUGE distraction.

This would be my reason for keeping them separate in the beginning.


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## rick smith

Bob

I think i understand what you mean
- all i was saying is i would not make it an "either/or" session

bitework can be a distraction and a reward and i feel both elements can be worked on together and be beneficial along the dog's learning curve

i've seen a lot of people who do only bitework with little or no OB and then a lot of OB only ... i don't want the dog to differentiate between the two 
...and i don't feel OB needs to be a drive killing, boring day compared to gripping and biting
....that's just me and i do a lot of things differently than a lot of people //lol//


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## John Ly

rick people do bitework only and then obedience only is because imo its better to get the dog solid on both before combining them. rather than the other way around of trying to teach two things at once. 

obedience aka control too soon during bite work can zap the intensity out of a dog. bitework too soon during obedience time can end up with a dog that is focused on the field instead of the handler. depends on the dog and age of course. 

op do you have any video of the obedience? i'd be interested to see how much drive (pep in his step) the rott has. just curious to see if its a training issue or a drive issue. some dogs cant maintain a state of drive for more than a few minutes.


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## rick smith

John
i never try and teach two things at once 

and i'm assuming the dog is capable of doing PSA work which in my opinion requires a more solid foundation of control with bitework than other sports or no sports.
- if a *set of OB mixed in with bitework kills drive for bitework at nine months, i'd be changing my goal for the dog...regardless of how slow it was maturing

*(when i train, i think in terms of reps and sets, not "time")

of course vids are always a good way to document what is going on with the dog and handler. if i had a dime for every time someone here has requested a video i'd be a millionaire //lol//


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## Geoff Empey

halie lenk said:


> All of his obedience has been done Ellis style.


This says a lot about the training mistakes you are making with him Halie. It's a very common thing for new trainers to fall into this type of trap through no fault of their own or the "Ellis style". I made the same types of training mistakes. Only working directly with master trainers like Patrice Foucault, Duke Ferguson, Shade Whitsel over the years was I able to get a better picture of a 'bigger' training picture of generalization vs discrimination and what dogs need to work in a complex environment like a PSA, Ring, or IPO field trialing or training environment. 

Many get caught up in replicating the 'style' where in reality there really shouldn't be a style just form, function and details. The 'style' you talk about is really a step, guideline or a blueprint to the future and something to not dwell upon for to long, as any 'style' then becomes a crutch. 

You've had some great suggestions from Mike, Joby et al so I won't go on as their advice is sound. But it is a good segue way into the rest of my post. 



John Ly said:


> rick people do bitework only and then obedience only is because imo its better to get the dog solid on both before combining them. rather than the other way around of trying to teach two things at once.
> 
> obedience aka control too soon during bite work can zap the intensity out of a dog. bitework too soon during obedience time can end up with a dog that is focused on the field instead of the handler. depends on the dog and age of course.


It can zap intensity of a dog but it also depends on the style of training. 

One of the biggest mistakes in my earlier training with my current was 'not' combining OB with bitework. I ran a dog that was and still is on the edge of control. That was because I missed that window of opportunity to have the generalization foundation of OB around bite work done, due to not having someone to recognize what was going on and coach our team. Once my dog's testoserone started flowing I was in trouble. It has taken a long time to get to a point where I can say I have made progress and it is always a work in progress. 

*Generalization*​
Remember generalization is the ability to apply a concept to a situation different from the one the dog initially learned on. Humans do this a lot better than dogs. Generalization is *"BIG PICTURE"

**Discrimination*
​Discrimination by contrast, is the ability to focus on the smaller picture - ya know the details. Humans tend to generalize better than the discriminate. Dogs however, are master discriminators. "Sit" doesn't necessarily mean "put your furry arse on the ground" to a dog. With improper generalization foundation 'sit' may only mean 'sit' when the the handler only has a bait bag standing next to the mirror in the training hall. Now that is discrimination! 

I've found generalization itself is more challenging for dogs. Unless you use heavy aversives, which they can generalize more easily as a survival technique. Dogs have to work a lot harder to learn to generalize as much as humans need to work to discriminate. 

When you generalize a behaviour the goal is to teach the dog that the command and it's associated behaviour apply in more than one environment or multiple environments. The process I've found that works best is variability. Variability in reward (amount, type and cadence), variability in aversives, (withholding of reward, prong collar or a finger flick for attention etc etc) variability in location, variability in handler demeanor, equipment, distractions etc etc etc the devil is in the details. 

Sure it sounds like a lot of details to remember but the good thing is with consistent training, generalization becomes habit for a dog as long as you approach it in a thoughtful consistent way.


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## Joby Becker

Geoff Empey said:


> This says a lot about the training mistakes you are making with him Halie. It's a very common thing for new trainers to fall into this type of trap through no fault of their own or the "Ellis style". I made the same types of training mistakes. Only working directly with master trainers like Patrice Foucault, Duke Ferguson, Shade Whitsel over the years was I able to get a better picture of a 'bigger' training picture of generalization vs discrimination and what dogs need to work in a complex environment like a PSA, Ring, or IPO field trialing or training environment.
> 
> Many get caught up in replicating the 'style' where in reality there really shouldn't be a style just form, function and details. The 'style' you talk about is really a step, guideline or a blueprint to the future and something to not dwell upon for to long, as any 'style' then becomes a crutch.
> 
> You've had some great suggestions from Mike, Joby et al so I won't go on as their advice is sound. But it is a good segue way into the rest of my post.
> 
> 
> 
> It can zap intensity of a dog but it also depends on the style of training.
> 
> One of the biggest mistakes in my earlier training with my current was 'not' combining OB with bitework. I ran a dog that was and still is on the edge of control. That was because I missed that window of opportunity to have the generalization foundation of OB around bite work done, due to not having someone to recognize what was going on and coach our team. Once my dog's testoserone started flowing I was in trouble. It has taken a long time to get to a point where I can say I have made progress and it is always a work in progress.
> 
> *Generalization*​
> Remember generalization is the ability to apply a concept to a situation different from the one the dog initially learned on. Humans do this a lot better than dogs. Generalization is *"BIG PICTURE"
> 
> **Discrimination*
> ​Discrimination by contrast, is the ability to focus on the smaller picture - ya know the details. Humans tend to generalize better than the discriminate. Dogs however, are master discriminators. "Sit" doesn't necessarily mean "put your furry arse on the ground" to a dog. With improper generalization foundation 'sit' may only mean 'sit' when the the handler only has a bait bag standing next to the mirror in the training hall. Now that is discrimination!
> 
> I've found generalization itself is more challenging for dogs. Unless you use heavy aversives, which they can generalize more easily as a survival technique. Dogs have to work a lot harder to learn to generalize as much as humans need to work to discriminate.
> 
> When you generalize a behaviour the goal is to teach the dog that the command and it's associated behaviour apply in more than one environment or multiple environments. The process I've found that works best is variability. Variability in reward (amount, type and cadence), variability in aversives, (withholding of reward, prong collar or a finger flick for attention etc etc) variability in location, variability in handler demeanor, equipment, distractions etc etc etc the devil is in the details.
> 
> Sure it sounds like a lot of details to remember but the good thing is with consistent training, generalization becomes habit for a dog as long as you approach it in a thoughtful consistent way.


nice post Geoff


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## rick smith

you sure said it better than i did Geoff 

but if you don't consider Ellis in the master trainer category i would choose to differ with that opinion 

i've only watched a few of his vids but he definitely teaches "discrimination" in my opinion, although he may use different terms like foundation building, etc
- he does focus on the small details and will quickly point out where they are missed when he is working with a student
- i would hope "style" was just a bad choice of words and was assuming the OP meant "methods", but i would consider Ellis a very good mentor to copy for almost any level of dog training. he has walked the walk in terms of competing and i have also seen his decoy work. i would say he is way beyond the average in that category too

i just feel it's better to get one system under your belt that gets results, completely, before you start developing your own individual one.
- of course there are many top level trainers out there to choose from

but getting back to the style issue ... i have people come to me who had watched an Ellis video or two, and it was easy to see that they had used the dvd"s.
.... but they all seemed to pick out 3-4 "techniques" they had watched but somehow had failed to see the rest. it was interesting when we went back thru the dvd together. lots of forehead smacking //lol//
- that's what i was referring to when i said the OP really hadn't followed Ellis, since some of his stated problems are specifically addressed in his dvd's

of course you can't become good by only watching videos, but if the person is a top level trainer, it would probably be better to spend time watching them compared to getting snippets online from people who have never seen the dog/handler working

of course it's not as good as working with someone in person but who knows for sure what's the next best approach to becoming better??

i do appreciate people who have experience taking their time to post here. it just seems to be happening less and less


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## Mike Di Rago

Not much to add to Geoff's post but that his observations and conclusions are what many sport dog trainors fail to realize because they only think that their dogs will only need to perform in a certain environment and only a certain patten.They fail to grasp the training concept explained by Geoff and when the dogs need to perform but one factor is different from training they lose all their references and disaster occurs.
In simple terms the dog must understand that when we ask ''heel'' it must heel regardless of the context,environment,distractions etc.
Protecting the dogs from distractions during training is a recepie for failure.
JMO


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## Geoff Empey

rick smith said:


> you sure said it better than i did Geoff
> 
> but if you don't consider Ellis in the master trainer category i would choose to differ with that opinion
> 
> i've only watched a few of his vids but he definitely teaches "discrimination" in my opinion, although he may use different terms like foundation building, etc
> - he does focus on the small details and will quickly point out where they are missed when he is working with a student
> - i would hope "style" was just a bad choice of words and was assuming the OP meant "methods", but i would consider Ellis a very good mentor to copy for almost any level of dog training. he has walked the walk in terms of competing and i have also seen his decoy work. i would say he is way beyond the average in that category too
> 
> i just feel it's better to get one system under your belt that gets results, completely, before you start developing your own individual one.
> - of course there are many top level trainers out there to choose from
> 
> but getting back to the style issue ... i have people come to me who had watched an Ellis video or two, and it was easy to see that they had used the dvd"s.
> .... but they all seemed to pick out 3-4 "techniques" they had watched but somehow had failed to see the rest. it was interesting when we went back thru the dvd together. lots of forehead smacking //lol//
> - that's what i was referring to when i said the OP really hadn't followed Ellis, since some of his stated problems are specifically addressed in his dvd's
> 
> of course you can't become good by only watching videos, but if the person is a top level trainer, it would probably be better to spend time watching them compared to getting snippets online from people who have never seen the dog/handler working
> 
> of course it's not as good as working with someone in person but who knows for sure what's the next best approach to becoming better??
> 
> i do appreciate people who have experience taking their time to post here. it just seems to be happening less and less


Hey I appreciate it as well, when I started off 9 years ago with my first working dog I was going around making the Cesar Milan '"ssshhh" thinking I was the cat's bottom of dog training! LOL! 

I've been really lucky to find good mentors and then train with some of the best from North America and Europe in the process. As you say in the end it comes down to to getting your own style, techniques and training mindset. 

Yes Mr Ellis is a "master trainer" in my book. To clarify what I was saying that I feel many newbies fall into the trap of watching such and such a video from such and such a trainer or same thing attending a seminar and following things to a 'T' then wondering why they are not having results as Mike was alluding to in his post.


Mike Di Rago said:


> Not much to add to Geoff's post but that his observations and conclusions are what many sport dog trainors fail to realize because they only think that their dogs will only need to perform in a certain environment and only a certain patten.They fail to grasp the training concept explained by Geoff and when the dogs need to perform but one factor is different from training they lose all their references and disaster occurs.
> In simple terms the dog must understand that when we ask ''heel'' it must heel regardless of the context,environment,distractions etc. Protecting the dogs from distractions during training is a recepie for failure.


Yes it is Mike. For me that's the biggest failing with many IPO vs say a Mondio or Belgian Ring dog. That's something that to many fail to address at an early part of their training IMO. 

Dog training for me is a constant state of education, ebb and flow, and constantly picking yourself up after falling flat for the umpteenth time. It's more than a 'style' and hard to put a finger on a training mindset's pulse really. 

That's something that you can't get from a video or seminar it's something that a trainer has to work out on their own I feel and it never ends.


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## Bob Scott

Mike said

"Protecting the dogs from distractions during training is a recepie for failure.
JMO"


Critical to any method of training!


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## Geoff Empey

Halie I've done some thinking about your post my and other's replies who we have touched on generalization and discrimination. To better understand how to drive these 2 different pictures for your dog I really think it is paramount to understand extrinsic and intrinsic motivation, so I took some time to hopefully explain and help you and others see the bigger picture that should help you expand your your training. 
*
Question: What Is the Difference Between Extrinsic and Intrinsic Motivation?*

Why do dogs do the things they do? What is it that drives our dog's behaviours? Many experienced dog trainers have proposed a number of different ways of thinking about motivation, including one method that involves looking at whether motivation arises from outside (extrinsic) or inside (intrinsic) the individual animal.

What exactly do we mean when we say extrinsic or intrinsic motivation?


Answer:
-Extrinsic Motivation-
Extrinsic motivation occurs when we are motivated to perform a behavior or engage in an activity in order to earn a reward or avoid a punishment.

Examples of behaviors that are the result of extrinsic motivation include:
Complying with a command to avoid being corrected by your handler, Bringing back the retrieve item to hand in order to get a reward, Completing a jump successfully in order to get praise from your handler.
In each of these examples, the behavior is motivated by a desire to gain a reward or avoid a negative outcome.

-Intrinsic Motivation-
Intrinsic motivation involves engaging in a behavior because it is personally rewarding; essentially, performing an activity for its own sake rather than the desire for some external reward.

Examples of behaviors for a dog that are the result of intrinsic motivation include:

Sniffing out a detection problem because the dog finds the challenge fun and interesting, or playing a game of fetch with the handler because the dog finds it exciting. In each of these instances, the dog's behavior is motivated by an internal desire to participate in an activity for its own sake.


*Extrinsic vs. Intrinsic Motivation: Which Is Best?*

So, the primary difference between the two types of motivation is that extrinsic motivation arises from outside of the individual while intrinsic motivation arises from within. I have also found that the two type of motivation can differ in how effective they are at driving behavior.


In my experience that offering excessive external rewards for an already internally rewarding behavior can actually lead to a reduction in intrinsic motivation, what I would classify as an * over* justification effect. For example, a dog I know who was rewarded for playing with a toy they had already expressed interest in playing with became less interested in the item after being externally rewarded with that same toy for no work. 

Extrinsic motivation can be beneficial in a number of situations, however: External rewards can induce interest and participation in something the individual had no initial interest in.


Extrinsic rewards can be used to motivate dogs to learn new skills and name the comand. Once these initial skills have been acquired, dogs may then become more intrinsically motivated to pursue the activity.


External rewards can also be a source of feedback, allowing dogs to know when their performance has achieved a standard deserving of reinforcement. This where communication and feedback to the dog is very important. 

I use a clicker for the most part to communicate 'success' or in a pinch if I don't have access to a clicker the 'Ellis' "YES". This very important especially for a dog that is intrinsically motivated. With my dog who is mostly intrinsically motivated it means a few things 1. that the dog has done the right thing. 2. that the dog has done the right thing and reward is forthcoming. 3 Excitement @ the prospect of the work, as the work in itself is the reward. 

Extrinsic motivators should be avoided in situations where:

The dog already finds the activity intrinsically rewarding i.e offering a reward might make a "play" activity seem more like "work"

While most people would suggest that intrinsic motivation is best, it is not always possible in each and every situation. In some cases, some dogs simply have no internal desire to engage in an activity. 

Excessive rewards may be problematic, but when used appropriately, extrinsic motivators can be a useful tool. For example, extrinsic motivation can be used to get a dog to complete a task or command in which they have no internal interest. i.e a jump where the dog knows if he doesn't knock the bar off, he gets a ball once he clears the jump and returns to heel position. 


Unexpected external rewards typically do not *decrease* intrinsic motivation. For example, if your dog gets good grip on a fast entry because it enjoys biting, then you as the handler decides to reward the with a pat to the side and "good boy", the dogs underlying motivation for learning about the task at hand will not be affected as the dog is doing something it want's to do which is 'bite'. However, this needs to be done with caution, because some dogs will sometimes come to expect such rewards and become handler dependent.


Though I found offering positive praise and feedback when my dog does something better than the last time can actually improve intrinsic motivation.


Intrinsic motivation will decrease, however, when external rewards are given for completing a specific task or only doing minimal work. For example, if handlers heap lavish food on their dog every time he is fed, he will become less intrinsically motivated to perform that task in the future. Like why would the dog jump a hurdle for a piece of kibble when it can go into the crate with a bone? This is what is going on with your dog Halie I'm 99.9% sure of it. 


Extrinsic and intrinsic motivation can also play an important role in learning settings. Some would argue that the traditional emphasis on external rewards such as balls, tugs, and food undermines any existing intrinsic motivation that a dog might have. Others suggest that these extrinsic motivators help dogs feel more competent in the training hall or field, thus enhancing intrinsic motivation.


"A dog's interest often survives when a reward is used neither to bribe nor to control but to signal a job well done, as in a "ball on a rope with a tug session". If a reward boosts your dog's feeling of competence after doing good work, their enjoyment of the task may increase. Rewards, rightly administered, can motivate high performance and compliance. 


As you can see, extrinsic motivation and intrinsic motivation are both important ways of driving your dog's behavior. In order to comprehend how these can be best utilized, it is important to understand some of the key differences between the two types of motivation including the overall impact that each can have on behaviour.


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## halie lenk

wow is all I can say. Thank you so much to everyone that answered. There is so much amazing information on this thread, I can't thank everyone enough!! I've been rereading all the responses over and over to soak it all in
I will try to get a video and get it uploaded.
However, I am a little confused now. Geoff, your ability to thoroughly explain things is amazing. I feel like I should be paying you for your help! But at first I was thinking that I needed to take a step back and reward more randomly and after shorter time periods. But your explanation of extrinsic and intrinsic motivation has me thinking I should actually back off the constant/random rewards. Am i understanding that right? That I've paid him TOO MUCH and now he is basically being an ass if he feels like he's 'not getting paid enough to do this job' so to speak.


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## halie lenk

Here is a video. The beginning is when I feel that he's not very 'into it'. he doesn't know I have the ball in my pocket. After the first reward with the ball. He becomes a lot more excited. (I know I did a lot of the same little pattern. But I was trying to keep the video short while showing his commands. I normally try to keep him guessing) 
https://youtu.be/_sjHciGJ5tk


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## Geoff Empey

halie lenk said:


> wow is all I can say. Thank you so much to everyone that answered. There is so much amazing information on this thread, I can't thank everyone enough!! I've been rereading all the responses over and over to soak it all in
> I will try to get a video and get it uploaded.
> However, I am a little confused now. Geoff, your ability to thoroughly explain things is amazing. I feel like I should be paying you for your help! But at first I was thinking that I needed to take a step back and reward more randomly and after shorter time periods. But your explanation of extrinsic and intrinsic motivation has me thinking I should actually back off the constant/random rewards. Am i understanding that right? That I've paid him TOO MUCH and now he is basically being an ass if he feels like he's 'not getting paid enough to do this job' so to speak.


I don't mind to help Halie especially with the little details that help the bigger picture. It doesn't always come across as clear as I'd like as it is hard to write details and steps without it sounding to rambling. 

Some thoughts on your quoted post:

Basically you need to make it 'different' than what you've been doing. It's not the rewards, *it's the mindset of the rewards.* 

So some food for thought. What will you do if you actually if you


halie said:


> back off the constant/random rewards


 Which are actually two different things when I think of it. 

Would you use a corrective collar? A knee bump by turning into him etc etc? All of these things could create handler/K9 conflict if you back off on all rewards and apply a corrective action incorrectly. 

As I was saying


> It's not the rewards, *it's the mindset of the rewards.*


 I am of the thought that the food being used now is being used more as a lure not as a reward. 

So I wouldn't eliminate all rewards. Though what I'd look into is your communication of what makes a 'mark' of a 'jackpot' reward for your dog. When he does the correct thing what is his reaction to your 'mark' of it.

In marker training in general if we've done the foundation of the clicker/yes correctly we have to load the clicker and or 'yes' with literally thousands of clicks/yeses'. It has to have that pavlovian effect. The clicker/yes *loading* is something that has to be done way way in advance to have significant meaning for the dog down the line. 

It also helps to have a hungry dog. I have some friends who train by feeding their dog's whole meals by hand during their training sessions through out the day. The dogs become very pushy for the food. But it is more important for you as a handler then to mark the correct behaviour with the proper timing without the food in sight, so that the dog knows what it is getting 'marked' and rewarded for. That's what I mean by the *mindset of the rewards*. 

How I teach my clients and in my Ringsport club is to keep it moving moving at a fast pace always, so timing of everything is paramount to keep it fresh for the dog. I call it Rock n Roll training. Even though the exercises run at a furious pace if we have taken the time to show the dog those little pieces within the exercise, those same pieces are still black and white. This is where the intrinsic motivation will become more pronounced and then you can use less and less extrinsic motivators. 

I hope that makes sense.


----------



## Mike Di Rago

Halie,
Not to add to Geof's post because he has put in much thought into his response,for sure, but one element you should ask yourself after reviewing the last video.Look at your body language and your energy during the OB.If you were your dog,would you be pumped up? Sometimes we must go beyond our normal personalities to get our dogs primmed up.In everyday live you may be a mellow person,but for your dog work,you must be crazy high for your dog.He may (or not you will gauge it) need it.If you give him 90% he may get only 70 out of it.If you act only 60%,how much will he give you?
This is not to critisize only an observation from your last video.Look and observe YOUR body language and energy,and then ask yourself how your dog reacts to that.Why should he give more than what you put in?


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## Geoff Empey

Yes Mike is right, there is a lot to be said for body language. There is so many ways to communicate in training .. use "*EVERYTHING*". Plus remember talk is cheap and a great way to build excitement and possession of a behaviour for a dog especially in the learning and proofing phase.


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## Thomas Barriano

I'm not seeing "constant reward". It's nearly a full minute before you throw the ball and then he comes back and you do a lift off to get him to out ? I'd forget about exercises and work on playing with your dog. I'd also use a ball on a rope or a tug and play tug and work on the out. See ME How to play tug with your dog DVD. Increase the intensity and frequency of the reward/play sessions and pick up the pace.


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## halie lenk

ok so stop being boring. Got it.  I guess I watch too many finished product/trial videos and try to emulate that. And I haven't taught the out yet so it builds his drive for the ball. is that wrong?


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## halie lenk

Oh and I didn't reward with the ball for a long period because I was showing the reason for the initial post: how he isn't as drivey when he thinks I don't have the ball. When I need a quick heel to the truck, sitting while I'm doing something, etc


----------



## Thomas Barriano

halie lenk said:


> ok so stop being boring. Got it.  I guess I watch too many finished product/trial videos and try to emulate that. And I haven't taught the out yet so it builds his drive for the ball. is that wrong?


IMO yes  You want engagement with you, not "drive" to chase a ball across the parking lot. You want a "out" that gets him an immediate re engagement/play with you. The ME DVD's and the free clips on the Leerburg site are well worth looking at.
FYI I just got a "new" 2 year old Rottweiler on Monday named Kato


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## Bob Scott

To follow up on Mike's comment about body language

Often times people will walk slow thinking to let the dog catch up. Rarely does that work because the dog is simply seeing you walk slow so it walks slower. 

Step out and you'll see a big difference in the dog's attitude!


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## John Ly

halie lenk said:


> Oh and I didn't reward with the ball for a long period because I was showing the reason for the initial post: how he isn't as drivey when he thinks I don't have the ball. When I need a quick heel to the truck, sitting while I'm doing something, etc


if you are expecting the dog to have a pep in his step for every day things just like he does on the training field then that is very unrealistic. a dog in drive is going to perform quicker than one that isnt. 

a heel walking somewhere in public should look different from a focused heel on the training field. i even use two different commands. dont watch youtube and think thats how the dog is off the training field.


----------



## halie lenk

John Ly said:


> if you are expecting the dog to have a pep in his step for every day things just like he does on the training field then that is very unrealistic. a dog in drive is going to perform quicker than one that isnt.
> 
> a heel walking somewhere in public should look different from a focused heel on the training field. i even use two different commands. dont watch youtube and think thats how the dog is off the training field.


This was super helpful. It seems common sense now, but I had it in my head that he should be working in drive all the time. Which is obviously unrealistic. DUH. Thanks for breaking that down.

Thomas: That makes sense! I'll get working on an out. I've seen the Ellis videos on that. So I'm excited to work on it now that I know I should

Bob: Got it! I get too damn focused on making sure he's doing in correctly and forget to just do it.


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## Bob Scott

" I get too damn focused on making sure he's doing in correctly and forget to just do it."

Step out with confidence.

Do plenty of footwork drills without the dog. When that's solid in "your" head then what your striving for with the dog will be much easier. :wink:


----------



## Catherine Gervin

Geoff Empey said:


> The process I've found that works best is variability. Variability in reward (amount, type and cadence), variability in aversives, (withholding of reward, prong collar or a finger flick for attention etc etc) variability in location, variability in handler demeanor, equipment, distractions etc etc etc the devil is in the details.
> 
> Sure it sounds like a lot of details to remember but the good thing is with consistent training, generalization becomes habit for a dog as long as you approach it in a thoughtful consistent way.


so i have a question about switching up the aversives, because i have only learned that consistency in punishments and even in praise--though i do that poorly in the praise department and tend to make a huge fuss for breakthroughs or getting it right amidst much temptation/stimulation--is correct. i mean, my dog has really pissed me off by ignoring a command (or almost any command) around the same dogs on the same times in our neighborhood and i have lost my temper and hoisted her and screamed at her, but i always felt remorse afterwards because i thought that was something one should NEVER do, unless the dog has come up the leash at you or something that extreme. i am intrigued by the idea of proofing commands beyond reliably getting the desired result in multiple situations/environments...does the dog give better attention to you when they don't know what kind of correction is coming? i was always trying to prevent avoidance or shutting my dog down or having her trust me less out of fear...i have totally not been in the presence of SERIOUS professional trainers so what i've learned is pretty rudimentary, i guess. please explain more on variability!


----------



## Geoff Empey

Catherine Gervin said:


> so i have a question about switching up the aversives, because i have only learned that consistency in punishments and even in praise--though i do that poorly in the praise department and tend to make a huge fuss for breakthroughs or getting it right amidst much temptation/stimulation--is correct. i mean, my dog has really pissed me off by ignoring a command (or almost any command) around the same dogs on the same times in our neighborhood and i have lost my temper and hoisted her and screamed at her, but i always felt remorse afterwards because i thought that was something one should NEVER do, unless the dog has come up the leash at you or something that extreme. i am intrigued by the idea of proofing commands beyond reliably getting the desired result in multiple situations/environments...does the dog give better attention to you when they don't know what kind of correction is coming? i was always trying to prevent avoidance or shutting my dog down or having her trust me less out of fear...i have totally not been in the presence of SERIOUS professional trainers so what i've learned is pretty rudimentary, i guess. please explain more on variability!



Hmmm well where do I start? 

Like anything variable 

_variable_

_[ ˈve(ə)rēəbəl ]_ 

_NOUN_


_an element, feature, or factor that is liable to vary or change 

_I do the same thing with rewards as I would with corrections. I just use my imagination and I utilize many methods. I do a very complicated sport with my dog (French Ring) and there is many wrong things as many right things, especially in bite work. I also have a very reactive and fast moving Malinois so it is hard to keep up with the physicality of the dog with the demands of the sport. So it is hard to communicate to the dog what is black and white and then keep him out of a grey area of confusion. 

Everything is about communication nothing more nothing less. I am not sure since you haven't been around experienced trainers so if you have heard about the 4 quadrants of dog training or what is known as operant conditioning so I will link you to something and give a quick explanation of it as that 
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-cIok-yKOuZw/T1PRCxoAwuI/AAAAAAAAAL4/JppqZbIfiXs/s1600/4+q%27s+of+operant+conditioning.jpg is the theoretic basis of everything I do.


​Positive Reinforcement, In dog trainer jargon known as +R
Positive Punishment, In dog trainer jargon known as +P
Negative Punishment, In dog trainer jargon known as -P
Negative Reinforcement, In dog trainer jargon known as -R

+R is what is the tool that is used by more marker trainers than anything it includes luring and shaping and having the dog offer the desired behaviour to reward on the basis of having the animal offer that behaviour more in the future. I use this a lot in teaching and proofing behaviours, from OB to jumps and bite work.

+P is the polar opposite of +R and you would say do a pop on a pinch collar to extinguish a behaviour such as pulling on the leash. I only use this to extinguish a dangerous behaviour or something that is totally unacceptable. 

-P again is the opposite of +R but more in the middle of +R and +P used a lot in low level stim e-collar work or even leash pressure work. I use this a lot in my Ringsport bite training coupled with +R such as leash pressure work for contact with me during the defense of handler exercise. 

-R another opposite of +R but it is withholding reward or removing something the dog wants. This gets paired a lot with +R as if your timing is good it can be uber clear for the dog. 

+P, -P, and -R in my experience always always have to be paired with +P when you use them. The dog always needs to win and have an out or a release to de-stress to know *'when'* it has done the correct thing. 

The devil is always in the details and this is where explaining with the confines of writing in a public forum has it's limitations. The possibilities really are endless once you figure the 4 quadrant thing out, and apply it into your day to day training. ​


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## Catherine Gervin

to Geoff Empey--thanx VERY MUCH for the link and the explanation!!
you can be sure that Agility training and Comformation training classes are more like practice as compared to training/competing in protection sports, which is like getting a degree.

to the OP and everyone else, i am sorry to kind of derail the thread with my question...


----------



## Joby Becker

Geoff Empey said:


> Hmmm well where do I start?
> 
> Like anything variable
> 
> _variable_
> 
> _[ ˈve(ə)rēəbəl ]_
> 
> _NOUN_
> 
> 
> _an element, feature, or factor that is liable to vary or change
> 
> _I do the same thing with rewards as I would with corrections. I just use my imagination and I utilize many methods. I do a very complicated sport with my dog (French Ring) and there is many wrong things as many right things, especially in bite work. I also have a very reactive and fast moving Malinois so it is hard to keep up with the physicality of the dog with the demands of the sport. So it is hard to communicate to the dog what is black and white and then keep him out of a grey area of confusion.
> 
> Everything is about communication nothing more nothing less. I am not sure since you haven't been around experienced trainers so if you have heard about the 4 quadrants of dog training or what is known as operant conditioning so I will link you to something and give a quick explanation of it as that
> http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-cIok-yKOuZw/T1PRCxoAwuI/AAAAAAAAAL4/JppqZbIfiXs/s1600/4+q%27s+of+operant+conditioning.jpg is the theoretic basis of everything I do.
> 
> 
> ​Positive Reinforcement, In dog trainer jargon known as +R
> Positive Punishment, In dog trainer jargon known as +P
> Negative Punishment, In dog trainer jargon known as -P
> Negative Reinforcement, In dog trainer jargon known as -R
> 
> +R is what is the tool that is used by more marker trainers than anything it includes luring and shaping and having the dog offer the desired behaviour to reward on the basis of having the animal offer that behaviour more in the future. I use this a lot in teaching and proofing behaviours, from OB to jumps and bite work.
> 
> +P is the polar opposite of +R and you would say do a pop on a pinch collar to extinguish a behaviour such as pulling on the leash. I only use this to extinguish a dangerous behaviour or something that is totally unacceptable.
> 
> -P again is the opposite of +R but more in the middle of +R and +P used a lot in low level stim e-collar work or even leash pressure work. I use this a lot in my Ringsport bite training coupled with +R such as leash pressure work for contact with me during the defense of handler exercise.
> 
> -R another opposite of +R but it is withholding reward or removing something the dog wants. This gets paired a lot with +R as if your timing is good it can be uber clear for the dog.
> 
> +P, -P, and -R in my experience always always have to be paired with +P when you use them. The dog always needs to win and have an out or a release to de-stress to know *'when'* it has done the correct thing.
> 
> The devil is always in the details and this is where explaining with the confines of writing in a public forum has it's limitations. The possibilities really are endless once you figure the 4 quadrant thing out, and apply it into your day to day training. ​


Hey Geoff, the -R description you gave is mixed up with the -P

-R is a removal of an aversive stimulus, which is likely to increase desired behavior. dog looks at is as a good thing  such as with leash pressure or low level stim work.

-P is a the removal / witholding of something the dog likes, this is likely to decrease the behavior in the dog, dog looks at it as a punishment.


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## Catherine Gervin

i totally misunderstood what "variances" was meant to explain--i thought Geoff was advocating mixing up your corrections all the time for the same behavior--dog doesn't sit so you pop the collar. next time the dog doesn't sit you verbally correct instead. subsequent times result in assorted responses. even i have experience actually using different types of reinforcement to achieve desired outcomes. nothing so sophisticated as what it takes to get a bark and hold, but certainly using withholding to get the game of fetch earned and verbal disapproval for breaking the sit and bait to work on heeling, etc.


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## Joby Becker

Catherine Gervin said:


> i totally misunderstood what "variances" was meant to explain--i thought Geoff was advocating mixing up your corrections all the time for the same behavior--dog doesn't sit so you pop the collar. next time the dog doesn't sit you verbally correct instead. subsequent times result in assorted responses. even i have experience actually using different types of reinforcement to achieve desired outcomes. nothing so sophisticated as what it takes to get a bark and hold, but certainly using withholding to get the game of fetch earned and verbal disapproval for breaking the sit and bait to work on heeling, etc.


I use -R fairly often and many people misunderstand it. just clarifying...


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## Catherine Gervin

Joby Becker said:


> I use -R fairly often and many people misunderstand it. just clarifying...


is it fair to call -R giving the dog the benefit of the doubt? you are sure the dog is onto what is being asked so you aren't going to correct unless/until they screw up?


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## Joby Becker

Catherine Gervin said:


> is it fair to call -R giving the dog the benefit of the doubt? you are sure the dog is onto what is being asked so you aren't going to correct unless/until they screw up?


-R is removing an aversive stimulus that is being applied,

lets say I tell the dog to "here" (recall-with finish in heel position for example)

I would be applying low level aversive stim as soon as I say the command.

The stim is continuous...

Once the dog is in his correct finish position, the stim is stopped. Praise and reward are given...

its a 2 fer one kinda thing, the reward is release from the aversive and another external reward / praise.

I would NOT say it is anything close to benefit of the doubt thing, the dog knows the commands, and is immediately being stimmed until he is in compliance/ or completes the action. he knows how to turn the aversive off, there is no "punishment", the removal of the stimulus is a "reward"

not a good method to use unless you know what you are doing.. like most methods


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## leslie cassian

My dog has trained me through -R

As soon as I pick up the phone, she starts to bark. High-pitched, annoying, incessant barking. The aversive stimulus will continue until I open the back door so she can go look for squirrels. My reward for compliance with her demand is the silence to continue my phone call. 

-R can be highly effective, if done correctly. 8)


----------



## Geoff Empey

Joby Becker said:


> Hey Geoff, the -R description you gave is mixed up with the -P
> 
> -R is a removal of an aversive stimulus, which is likely to increase desired behavior. dog looks at is as a good thing  such as with leash pressure or low level stim work.
> 
> -P is a the removal / witholding of something the dog likes, this is likely to decrease the behavior in the dog, dog looks at it as a punishment.



Maybe it isn't clear so I'll use a different description. -R for me = You put a prong collar on a dog and it self corrects itself by pulling and creating discomfort. So the next time it has a prong collar on it won't pull because it knows it has a prong collar on. Or you don't have a Prong collar and it pulls so you pop off your baseball cap and swat it, then the baseball cap becomes a +P tool but the presence of it on your head could be seen by the dog as a -R. Same thing with leash pressure to do handler contact with a defense of handler exercise. Those are -R to me. Your description of -R being a removal of an aversive to me is +R, seen from the dog as removal of the leash pressure is a +R for the dog. Sorta like Leslie now being able to talk on the phone.  I agree with your -P description though.


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## Joby Becker

I see how you see that Geoff, but we will just have to disagree on the terminology.

for everyone else, here is a Micheal Ellis Video Explaining the -R Quadrant of Operant Conditioning. starts at about 3:30

https://youtu.be/lUA5kCZe8nY?t=3m

And here is the video from beginning, explaining Operant Conditioning, and its 4 Quadrants.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUA5kCZe8nY


----------



## rick smith

great vids Joby
never seen them
Tx for digging them up

i have yet to find anyone who can verbally explain operant dog training better than ME

most people i work with have never heard of OC, but 90% are enthusiastic about it when they study it
- the problem i have always had is that people can read about OC and get it. sounds simple on paper and when you look at the graphs
- but THINKING and training operantly when you are with the dog is another thing entirely 

best ways i have found to get that happening is to lose the lead when they are with a dog, and doing people to people training without the dog using OC
- not always practical or possible but well worth it if you can do either one


----------



## Geoff Empey

rick smith said:


> great vids Joby
> never seen them
> Tx for digging them up
> 
> i have yet to find anyone who can verbally explain operant dog training better than ME


Yeah ME is good for sure and thanks Joby. I'll agree to disagree my friend.


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## Bob Scott

John said

"a heel walking somewhere in public should look different from a focused heel on the training field. i even use two different commands. dont watch youtube and think thats how the dog is off the training field".


Ditto on that!

Expecting a competition heel all the time will quickly break down the performance of the dog.

That goes for any behavior.


----------



## rick smith

i wasn't going to comment on John's post but this but since it has been brought up again i will ...

(John) re: "a heel walking somewhere in public should look different from a focused heel on the training field. i even use two different commands. dont watch youtube and think thats how the dog is off the training field".
(Bob) - Ditto on that!
- Expecting a competition heel all the time will quickly break down the performance of the dog."

1. first off, i see nothing wrong with using a competition heel in public. there are times and places where it is VERY useful. and doing it should not break down the dog's performance. if it has to be sustained, so what ? it should not be any different than a sustained heel on a trial field, and it should not be any more difficult for the dog. on the flip side, why would that be the ONLY way to walk with your dog ? that makes no sense either. you are not working for trial points in public //lol//

2. with that said, i do NOT feel walking dog in public should require a command. the dog should do it naturally and freely without a command. commands are used to require a dog to do something it would not do on its own. nothing should be more natural and free than walking with your dog. isn’t that one of the main reasons we get dogs ??

3. in my opinion if you require a "command" to walk with your dog in public either : 
1. you have a dog with a problem 
2. it indicates you do not have basic control of your dog 
… or 3. your dog doesn’t know the competition heel command 

so i would like to ask John to explain why he thinks this is needed and explain how he teaches it and why he added the advice "not to watch youtube".

being under control is apples and oranges compared to responding to a command 
- a "competition heel" does not always require moving. it also means the dog will come to a sit next to the handler. also very useful

- i don't think this is limited to pet dogs; it applies to professional working dogs too.
- what does a MWD handler do when they are out in public and have to move about ? they walk with their K9, or they HEEL their dog when necessary.
- they don’t give it a “heel in public” command, or shorten the lead and yank it in close to their hip 
- the same procedure applies to an EDD working in public. they don't walk their dog to an area with a competition heel command. they walk there with their dog 

- and i would hope the same would apply with a PSD and a LEO in public

as you all know, i walk dogs in public a LOT but i have never taught it with a command. if someone has a way to teach this using a command i'm all ears
- but i firmly believe if your dog needs this command when you are walking in public you are training a robo dog and that is not my idea of owning a dog

ok....back to keeping drive without a constant reward


----------



## Joby Becker

rick smith said:


> i wasn't going to comment on John's post but this but since it has been brought up again i will ...
> 
> (John) re: "a heel walking somewhere in public should look different from a focused heel on the training field. i even use two different commands. dont watch youtube and think thats how the dog is off the training field".
> (Bob) - Ditto on that!
> - Expecting a competition heel all the time will quickly break down the performance of the dog."
> 
> 1. first off, i see nothing wrong with using a competition heel in public. there are times and places where it is VERY useful. and doing it should not break down the dog's performance. if it has to be sustained, so what ? it should not be any different than a sustained heel on a trial field, and it should not be any more difficult for the dog. on the flip side, why would that be the ONLY way to walk with your dog ? that makes no sense either. you are not working for trial points in public //lol//
> 
> 2. with that said, i do NOT feel walking dog in public should require a command. the dog should do it naturally and freely without a command. commands are used to require a dog to do something it would not do on its own. nothing should be more natural and free than walking with your dog. isn’t that one of the main reasons we get dogs ??
> 
> 3. in my opinion if you require a "command" to walk with your dog in public either :
> 1. you have a dog with a problem
> 2. it indicates you do not have basic control of your dog
> … or 3. your dog doesn’t know the competition heel command
> 
> so i would like to ask John to explain why he thinks this is needed and explain how he teaches it and why he added the advice "not to watch youtube".
> 
> being under control is apples and oranges compared to responding to a command
> - a "competition heel" does not always require moving. it also means the dog will come to a sit next to the handler. also very useful
> 
> - i don't think this is limited to pet dogs; it applies to professional working dogs too.
> - what does a MWD handler do when they are out in public and have to move about ? they walk with their K9, or they HEEL their dog when necessary.
> - they don’t give it a “heel in public” command, or shorten the lead and yank it in close to their hip
> - the same procedure applies to an EDD working in public. they don't walk their dog to an area with a competition heel command. they walk there with their dog
> 
> - and i would hope the same would apply with a PSD and a LEO in public
> 
> as you all know, i walk dogs in public a LOT but i have never taught it with a command. if someone has a way to teach this using a command i'm all ears
> - but i firmly believe if your dog needs this command when you are walking in public you are training a robo dog and that is not my idea of owning a dog
> 
> ok....back to keeping drive without a constant reward


I think one could use a variety of commands while working on a dog to walk (behave)how you want him to in public, as far as just a command for the actual act of walking in and of itself, not used very often Imagine.

I suppose I could be using "let's go", or "leave it" at times with various, dogs. bu that is more to gets dogs attention in conjunction with me walking, or to speed up...

not sure what your point is exactly so cant comment, but I do use commands all the time while walking the dog. verbal and physical.

dogs vary, you might have certain dogs that require more commands to "learn" how to act right while out and about...


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## rick smith

Joby
yes, i use commands when i want to adjust position or get the dog's attention for something when i'm out. i'm not implying i would never need to communicate with the dog

just saying i don't use a command for "walking in public" and have never trained one, and DO use a formal heel when needed (for a short or long time depending...)
....and gave examples of how i think it is done by professional working dogs also, in case my post was viewed as "pet walking" only

thought i was clear but guess i wasn't


----------



## Joby Becker

rick smith said:


> Joby
> yes, i use commands when i want to adjust position or get the dog's attention for something when i'm out. i'm not implying i would never need to communicate with the dog
> 
> just saying i don't use a command for "walking in public" and have never trained one, and DO use a formal heel when needed (for a short or long time depending...)
> ....and gave examples of how i think it is done by professional working dogs also, in case my post was viewed as "pet walking" only
> 
> thought i was clear but guess i wasn't


aHHH I got it now...me neither..maybe just things like "easy" if dog is walking to fast for my taste..

I do use a command to allow dog to pull hard on the leash and try to go wherever they want, for my own dogs... to make it appear that I cannot control the dog, comes in handy more than you might think 

but I get what you meant now...


----------



## Geoff Empey

Catherine Gervin said:


> i totally misunderstood what "variances" was meant to explain--i thought Geoff was advocating mixing up your corrections all the time for the same behavior--dog doesn't sit so you pop the collar. next time the dog doesn't sit you verbally correct instead. subsequent times result in assorted responses. even i have experience actually using different types of reinforcement to achieve desired outcomes. nothing so sophisticated as what it takes to get a bark and hold, but certainly using withholding to get the game of fetch earned and verbal disapproval for breaking the sit and bait to work on heeling, etc.


No you didn't misunderstand Catherine. But it's more so than that. I said earlier that ..

_""Basically you need to make it 'different' than what you've been doing. It's not the rewards, *it's the mindset of the rewards.* _""

The same can be said for adversives as well. It's not the correction *it's the mindset of the corrections. *

That's what I base my corrections on *(THE MINDSET of them)*. That being said .. You don't squish an ant with a steam roller. It's not about using a bigger stick or a more powerful tool it is about interrupting the dog to get the dog back on +R with the least amount of effort and adversive as possible. 

i.e my female in my Avatar I was training changes of positions for an upcoming trial, an exercise that was learned years before and she was very solid in it. It went like this that day. 

"Sit" no problem
"Down" no problem
"Stand" ... nada ... "Stand" nada#2 ... "Stand" nada#3 I walked up and manipulated her to the position with no reward being neutral. 

I walk back the 18m
"Sit" no problem
"Down" no problem
"Stand" ... nada ... "Stand" nada#2 ... "Stand" nada#3 I walked up and picked her up and put her over the fence and then basically chased her back to the van in a neutral mindset and put her into her crate. I then backed the van up to the fence so she could watch all the other dogs work. Needless to say she wasn't very happy because she wasn't on the field biting the decoy. 

Next day same scenario exact same spot this time. 
"Sit" no problem
"Down" no problem
"Stand" ... nada only one chance today I again walked up and picked her up and put her over the fence and back to the van so she could watch the other dogs work again, she was frantic but I ignored her and she didn't get to work.

Next day exact same scenario. 
"Sit" no problem
"Down" no problem
"Stand" ... BOOM!! She STOOD and her OB was the best I'd seen in a long time. There was no heavy corrections from a tool, there was no drama from me. But I got into her head regardless. I tried other things to proof the stand things like a belly collar, or touch her with a buggy whip from a distance, walking up and correcting with a prong but nothing worked better than that 3 day stand session. 

Every dog, behaviour and session is different and in my experience if you don't pigeon hole yourself into repeating the same things that don't work or are just a band aid solution, it helps you grow as a trainer. We are supposed to be the on the smart end of the leash so that with creativity you should be able to make progress with any dog, I'd like to think.


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## rick smith

interesting example Geoff

Q : what quadrant of OC would that technique fit into ?

- P, but spaced over an extended time period ??

i ask that because i use another tool that i don't feel fits exactly into any of the four quadrants, and i think you just gave an example that closely resembles it
- ignoring the behavior entirely

note* 
i would also add that i'm not a big proponent of thinking that a dog actually learns anything while it is "soaking", as many say that it does. personally i don't think dogs learn that much by visuals in the same way that other animals do (cats for example)


and i don't consider "ignoring" the same as a negative marker used when a dog is offering a behavior that i don't want

i do this a lot with aggression cases. often when i first meet a dog that lights up when i get on the scene, i will ignore whatever posturing and aggression the dog is showing and simply do NOTHING but hold my ground and act bored until the posturing deescalates ... but i won't reward the dog in any way since it is rarely calmed down enuff to accept ANY form of reward 

- sometimes i will even allow a dog to bite me that i know is a confirmed live biter, and in my opinion that is a great way to find out quickly if the dog is biting from fear, since they give up quickly. fortunately, at least in my experience, they are the majority of live biters 
- the hardest part is to have the patience to do nothing for (sometimes) a long time, since it is human nature to want to do "something" //lol//
- probably sounds like a crazy approach but that's just me, so feel free to call me a nut case //lol//

i also do this when i am working a dog in an area where there is a fence fighter or dog tied out that barks when any other dog passes by. i ignore the dog inside and stay there with the one i am working until it shuts up. often the owner will come out and apologize but i tell them not to worry, it doesn’t bother us, and ask them to please go back inside and forget about the ruckus their mutt is making. rarely takes more than a few minutes and i don’t reward the inside dog unless i come by again and it stays quiet. then i will toss some goody its way 
- i know, it's not my dog yada yada; i just happen to hate dealing with these pita dogs, and i know the owners did not train them to act this way whether they are happy with the behavior or not. plus they are great distractions for the dog i'm working 

otoh, if a reward IS given then a consequence has been shown to the dog and it clearly becomes operant training

but mostly, i was just wondering if you felt totally "ignoring" can be considered a training tool too since many people feel a dog should always receive a consequence for their actions to keep it "clear" and "consistent" to the dog, etc etc


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## rick smith

feel free to add your thoughts too Halie

- i don't want you to think this is just a one to one spin off with Geoff //lol//


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## Geoff Empey

Rick I'd have to say it is -P withhold reward for an extended period. As well I don't think I would classify that I ignored her non compliance of the stand command. There was consequences to her non compliance which was she couldn't participate. Her non compliance was marked by the immediate return to the crate and I made a point by lifting her and putting her over the fence not using the gate so she couldn't be on the field at all. So it was pretty black and white for her.


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## halie lenk

I've just been trying to soak in all the info. lol I find it very interesting the scenario Geoff did with the stand. To me, once I'm sure the dog truly understands the command, any non compliance is time for a correction. But every dog is different. And that obviously worked for that dog. So thank you for sharing that and giving me another option to think about.
I have never been a fan of the 'putting the dog up' as a correction. But I have also never done it. So I have no room to talk.



Catherine Gervin said:


> i totally misunderstood what "variances" was meant to explain--i thought Geoff was advocating mixing up your corrections all the time for the same behavior--dog doesn't sit so you pop the collar. next time the dog doesn't sit you verbally correct instead. subsequent times result in assorted responses. even i have experience actually using different types of reinforcement to achieve desired outcomes. nothing so sophisticated as what it takes to get a bark and hold, but certainly using withholding to get the game of fetch earned and verbal disapproval for breaking the sit and bait to work on heeling, etc.


I have always learned that consistency is most important. especially in corrections. To me, correcting on the collar for the first time he doesnt sit, then only verbally correcting the 2nd, is showing the dog you wont be as serious every time. Therefor, why should he listen right away, when he might just get a verbal correction.


Bob Scott said:


> John said
> 
> "a heel walking somewhere in public should look different from a focused heel on the training field. i even use two different commands. dont watch youtube and think thats how the dog is off the training field".
> 
> 
> Ditto on that!
> 
> Expecting a competition heel all the time will quickly break down the performance of the dog.
> 
> That goes for any behavior.


Makes sense. However, I do a 'walk' when I want him to stay close and be aware of surroundings. Which he just did naturally and I put a word with it. So if a squirrell runs, and he starts trotting ahead after it, "no, walk" and he drops back. I guess same thing as 'leave it' really. And 'volg' for the focused heel. So I somewhat have 2 different commands.


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## rick smith

re : "To me, once I'm sure the dog truly understands the command, any non compliance is time for a correction"

how do you determine that point in your training ?
specifics please


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## Geoff Empey

rick smith said:


> re : "To me, once I'm sure the dog truly understands the command, any non compliance is time for a correction"
> 
> how do you determine that point in your training ?
> specifics please


LOL! Great question Rick. I'll wait to see what the others pipe up with, before I put in my poker in the fire. :mrgreen:


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## halie lenk

I determine it by always starting a command with a food lure (if the dog takes it) and obvious hand signals by luring. ex: the down command. start by luring all the way to the ground, saying the command, and marking when elbows hit the floor. lots of reps. then when dog is doing that easily, start fading the hand gesture. (only bend halfway down, then just pointing from a standing postion, etc) lots of reps here. Then eventually saying the word from a standing position. And dog does it. If dog doesn't, take a step back and help with the hand gesture again. More reps. Dog does multiple downs with me just saying the word, no hand gestures or help. I believe the dog knows the command and is ready for corrections for not listening to the verbal command. 
While doing this, I am moving the dog around the room and to different areas (with no distractions at first) to generalize the command.
Could take minutes, could take weeks. depending on the dog and age and how much work he has already had with that command.
Thats how I train client dogs. My own dog was a little different, obviously because of the perk of starting him as a pup, and having the time.
But overall, thats how I determine if the dog truly 'knows' the command. If he will do it by just a verbal command, multiple times, in multiple areas.


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## John Ly

rick smith said:


> i wasn't going to comment on John's post but this but since it has been brought up again i will ...
> 
> (John) re: "a heel walking somewhere in public should look different from a focused heel on the training field. i even use two different commands. dont watch youtube and think thats how the dog is off the training field".
> (Bob) - Ditto on that!
> - Expecting a competition heel all the time will quickly break down the performance of the dog."
> 
> 1. first off, i see nothing wrong with using a competition heel in public. there are times and places where it is VERY useful. and doing it should not break down the dog's performance. if it has to be sustained, so what ? it should not be any different than a sustained heel on a trial field, and it should not be any more difficult for the dog. on the flip side, why would that be the ONLY way to walk with your dog ? that makes no sense either. you are not working for trial points in public //lol//
> 
> 2. with that said, i do NOT feel walking dog in public should require a command. the dog should do it naturally and freely without a command. commands are used to require a dog to do something it would not do on its own. nothing should be more natural and free than walking with your dog. isn’t that one of the main reasons we get dogs ??
> 
> 3. in my opinion if you require a "command" to walk with your dog in public either :
> 1. you have a dog with a problem
> 2. it indicates you do not have basic control of your dog
> … or 3. your dog doesn’t know the competition heel command
> 
> so i would like to ask John to explain why he thinks this is needed and explain how he teaches it and why he added the advice "not to watch youtube".
> 
> being under control is apples and oranges compared to responding to a command
> - a "competition heel" does not always require moving. it also means the dog will come to a sit next to the handler. also very useful
> 
> - i don't think this is limited to pet dogs; it applies to professional working dogs too.
> - what does a MWD handler do when they are out in public and have to move about ? they walk with their K9, or they HEEL their dog when necessary.
> - they don’t give it a “heel in public” command, or shorten the lead and yank it in close to their hip
> - the same procedure applies to an EDD working in public. they don't walk their dog to an area with a competition heel command. they walk there with their dog
> 
> - and i would hope the same would apply with a PSD and a LEO in public
> 
> as you all know, i walk dogs in public a LOT but i have never taught it with a command. if someone has a way to teach this using a command i'm all ears
> - but i firmly believe if your dog needs this command when you are walking in public you are training a robo dog and that is not my idea of owning a dog
> 
> ok....back to keeping drive without a constant reward


for me there is no need for a competition style heel out in the real world. you say there are times it can be very useful. can you name some for me? i have yet to encounter a situation where i need my dog to walk next to me while completely focused on my face and in correct body position. i also cant think of why sar or police etc would need it? could you explain? its called a competition style heeling for a reason. 

how do you get your dog back to your side rick? if you have no command then the dog walks wherever it wants? if the dog is in front of you and you need the dog back to your left side how do you do that? do you just yank on the leash until the dog is in the correct position?

the command heel to me means come back to my side and stay there. i dont care if he sniffs or looks around or whatever he wants to do, as long as he's by my side. i very rarely use a leash for my dog. i dont leash him to walk him to the park or when hiking or biking. i let him have free roam and do whatever he wants. when i see people/dogs coming or if we are coming up on a blind corner then i give him the heel command. he comes back to my side and walks by my side until i give him a release word to go do whatever. i dont need a competition heel. i just need the dog by my side. 

hope that explains it better for you. also if you are going to quote me at least include the entire sentence lol. my point was its unrealistic to expect a dog to walk around in public in a focused heel all the time like in youtube training videos. or maybe yours can? maybe you have some video of it?


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## John Ly

https://vimeo.com/118080910

this is the only video i've seen of you handling a dog. at the beginning the dog is pulling and is not by your side. all you're doing is holding onto the leash and pulling the dog back into position. maybe you should teach a heel command? =)


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## Bob Scott

I also use different commands when walking. As I mentioned in another post I use "easy" if a dog gets to far ahead of me (in off leash areas such as in the woods) and a "with me" when I want a loose heel. With that the dog can be anywhere withing 2-3ft of me but no further. 

Wwith any of my commands there are competition and everyday commands.

If I say "down" I have no issues with the dog even walking a few steps (to go in the shade, a more comfortable spot in the yard, etc but they WILL down.

When I say "Platz" they will hit the deck immediately.

I do give allowances now for my 11 yr old dog who is full of arthritis. He no longer is given competition commands. No more retrieving either. When he brings me his Kong to play all I do now is give an "out" command and then reward with giving him the Kong again. He's quite happy with that.


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## rick smith

???
John

that "blast from the past" video clip you posted of me working with that extremely aggressive Czech line working GSD in front of Starbucks has NOTHING to do with this thread since it had NOTHING to do with teaching OB of any kind. it DID have everything to do with control, which for me are two different issues that i have no intention of explaining at this point

actually, it might have some relevance later IF Halie wants to go that way, since the dog had previously been groomed to be a PPD for the owners, but that didn't work out even tho they got a SchH 1 title for the dog. it bit the husband more than once and had other live bites. one on me 
- if you want to resurrect it again, feel free to start another thread about it

if anything i have posted in this thread requires a video for you to understand, don't hold your breath ... i have no plan to explain my posts with a video


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## John Ly

rick smith said:


> ???
> John
> 
> that "blast from the past" video clip you posted of me working with that extremely aggressive Czech line working GSD in front of Starbucks has NOTHING to do with this thread since it had NOTHING to do with teaching OB of any kind. it DID have everything to do with control, which for me are two different issues that i have no intention of explaining at this point
> 
> actually, it might have some relevance later IF Halie wants to go that way, since the dog had previously been groomed to be a PPD for the owners, but that didn't work out even tho they got a SchH 1 title for the dog. it bit the husband more than once and had other live bites. one on me
> - if you want to resurrect it again, feel free to start another thread about it
> 
> if anything i have posted in this thread requires a video for you to understand, don't hold your breath ... i have no plan to explain my posts with a video


of course that video of yours wasn't about obedience of any kind. you yourself said you didnt need to teach the dog to walk next to you remember? but fair enough, no vidoes. maybe you could answer some of the questions i posted though?

you say there are times that a competition heel would be "VERY" useful. could you name some? just because i've never encountered a situation where i would need it with my dog doesnt mean they do not exist. i am genuinely curious. 

i'm also curious where a focused heel would be applicable in real world work? police, military, sar etc. 

since you said the dog in your video had an ipo1 and you said that a focused heel could be very useful, why didn't you use it in that situation instead of just yanking the dog back?


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## Gillian Schuler

For me there is a command that the dog must follow unconditionally and that is:

FUSS

He doesn't have to heel me as in IPO Sport but he has been conditioned to the consequence of leaving my side.


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## halie lenk

John, the tone of your continuous posts is coming off like you're just out to argue. And, frankly, its getting really annoying. This whole thread was for advice on my training, and I got what I was asking for. (and much more) Everyone has a different way of training. If you want to passive-aggressively attack someone's training style, start a new thread.


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## John Ly

OK sorry to go off topic on your thread. It's clear rick wasn't going to answer anyways. He just likes to ask questions but not answer any.


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