# Dominance vs true dog aggression



## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Quinn has been exposed to lots of dogs & he's fine with them. He doesn't like my male SchH dog but he's ok with other male dogs whether they're neutered or not as long as they aren't aggressive. He's never been in a dog fight.

Quinn is getting ready to compete in SchH. Today we took him outside the chain link fence of a dog park. He was curious. Of course some dogs came running up to the fence barking & looking for trouble. Quinn responded by getting aggressive right back.

I'm wondering whether I should continue going to the dog park (never, never inside the park) or avoid the whole situation & only expose him to the controlled dogs.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Sue Miller said:


> Quinn has been exposed to lots of dogs & he's fine with them. He doesn't like my male SchH dog but he's ok with other male dogs whether they're neutered or not as long as they aren't aggressive. He's never been in a dog fight.
> 
> Quinn is getting ready to compete in SchH. Today we took him outside the chain link fence of a dog park. He was curious. Of course some dogs came running up to the fence barking & looking for trouble. Quinn responded by getting aggressive right back.
> 
> I'm wondering whether I should continue going to the dog park (never, never inside the park) or avoid the whole situation & only expose him to the controlled dogs.


not a fan of dogs parks personally. but I can say the best way to do it is to walk them right in and cut em loose. no leash control no fence....let the leash drag...

like I said don't like em, too much potential for your dog to get messed over mentally or physically.


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## Thomas Johnson (Nov 29, 2009)

http://leerburg.com/dogparks.htm

read this ^^

Too many idiotic owners with no control over there dog who don't have a slightest clue of dog psychology, most owners at dog parks go to dog parks to talk with other people, not for the better future being of their dog.
Too many unhealthy dogs that could get your dog sick.
Dogs don't need that many friends, a few dog friends are fine, and they're not found at dog parks.
Bring your dog to a dog park and if a fight breaks out with another dog and that dog really puts hurt on your dog sending it to the emergency room, you set your dog up to fail.​


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> not a fan of dogs parks personally. but I can say the best way to do it is to walk them right in and cut em loose. no leash control no fence....let the leash drag...
> 
> like I said don't like em, too much potential for your dog to get messed over mentally or physically.


I'm never ever going to let him inside the dog park just outside the chain link fence to get him used to seeing lots of other dogs.

I had the question because I realize I'm never going to & I don't want to really change that he's a dominant dog so why bother to expose him to the challenge of dogs running up to the fence barking, hackled & just looking for a fight. I was thinking that controlling him around the dogs at the park would neutralize their threats. I would never expose him to a situation where there could be any possibility of a dog fight.

I don't know, just wondering what others think.


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## Guest (Jun 7, 2010)

Only exposing him to "controlled" dogs does not address his reactivity. Yes, of course you should definitely expose him to dog park dogs... correctly. The fence is plenty of control.


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

I use it as a distraction. I don't do dog parks, but my neighors dogs love to run the fence and carry on and almost all of my training is right next to the fence. Never do I allow my dog during a training session to even look. Its a good distraction and it gives me some sense of comfort and confidence in hoping my dog is WITH me come trial day.
T

I definitely wouldn't allow the behavior esp when he is supposed to be under your control. To me that would be equ. to encouraging it.


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Vin Chiu said:


> Only exposing him to controlled dogs does not address his reactivity. Yes, of course you should definitely expose him to dog park dogs... correctly. The fence is plenty of control.


I'm trying to neutralize the effect of the barking, charging dogs. Do you think that's possible? He's truly dominant & I'm wondering if I can *change* his reaction.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Sue Miller said:


> Quinn has been exposed to lots of dogs & he's fine with them. He doesn't like my male SchH dog but he's ok with other male dogs whether they're neutered or not as long as they aren't aggressive. He's never been in a dog fight.
> 
> Quinn is getting ready to compete in SchH. Today we took him outside the chain link fence of a dog park. He was curious. Of course some dogs came running up to the fence barking & looking for trouble. Quinn responded by getting aggressive right back.
> 
> I'm wondering whether I should continue going to the dog park (never, never inside the park) or avoid the whole situation & only expose him to the controlled dogs.


This prolly should have been done when he was younster and you could controal things better, now you got a young dog who dosent have a clue how to act around other dogs and rank behaviors. Allowing him to fence fight is only going to make frustration and agression worse you say your getting ready to compeat in Schutzhund you will have to do a BH which most times will test your dogs nerve and behavior around other dogs, Schutzhund obediance will have another dog on the field to report in and wile obediance routine is done.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Sue Miller said:


> I'm never ever going to let him inside the dog park just outside the chain link fence to get him used to seeing lots of other dogs.
> 
> I had the question because I realize I'm never going to & I don't want to really change that he's a dominant dog so why bother to expose him to the challenge of dogs running up to the fence barking, hackled & just looking for a fight. I was thinking that controlling him around the dogs at the park would neutralize their threats. I would never expose him to a situation where there could be any possibility of a dog fight.
> 
> I don't know, just wondering what others think.


yeah i get you....would work for making him ignore threats from the other side, if you wanted to do that


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

Sue Miller said:


> I'm trying to neutralize the effect of the barking, charging dogs. Do you think that's possible? He's truly dominant & I'm wondering if I can *change* his reaction.


Consistancy, a reward, and a good pinch collar will change his reaction all right!

It's a great training opertunity and something he needs to know will not be tolerated by you..... the boss.


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Mike Scheiber said:


> This prolly should have been done when he was younster and you could controal things better, now you got a young dog who dosent have a clue how to act around other dogs and rank behaviors. Allowing him to fence fight is only going to make frustration and agression worse you say your getting ready to compeat in Schutzhund you will have to do a BH which most times will test your dogs nerve and behavior around other dogs, Schutzhund obediance will have another dog on the field to report in and wile obediance routine is done.


He's normal around other dogs--both male & female. We have lots of dogs in & out that he's exposed to. What I'm wondering is should I expect him not to react to other dogs acting aggressively? He's fine at the club on his long down & doing obedience on the field with other dogs that are under control.

I was just wondering what other people think.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

what happens if you are walking down the sidewalk, or bike path and another on leash dog is acting aggressive at a close distance? does the dog ignore it? or fire up? I want my dog to ignore it or focus on me.

I have always owned dog aggressive and/or dominant breeds. I do not like a dog that reacts to an aggressive dog that is NOT in the IMMEDIATE area offlead. 

That being said loose dogs are another story,dog should be able to defend itself in certain situations... just had to string her up yesterday while a dachshund](*,) charged her and chewed on her leg on my street. Man she wanted that hot dog for lunch....


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Sue Miller said:


> He's normal around other dogs--both male & female. We have lots of dogs in & out that he's exposed to. What I'm wondering is should I expect him not to react to other dogs acting aggressively? He's fine at the club on his long down & doing obedience on the field with other dogs that are under control.
> 
> I was just wondering what other people think.


Id stay away the best you can form the uncontrolled dogs there behaviors bad ain't doing your dog any good if he good at club I'd leave it at that and call it good.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Mike Scheiber said:


> This prolly should have been done when he was younster and you could controal things better, now you got a young dog who dosent have a clue how to act around other dogs and rank behaviors. *Allowing him to fence fight is only going to make frustration and agression worse* you say your getting ready to compeat in Schutzhund you will have to do a BH which most times will test your dogs nerve and behavior around other dogs, Schutzhund obediance will have another dog on the field to report in and wile obediance routine is done.


In addition, the dogs can hurt themselves or each other through the fence pretty badly (broken teeth, injured eyes, and so on). Not something to encourage. JMHO.


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Id stay away the best you can form the uncontrolled dogs there behaviors bad ain't doing your dog any good if he good at club I'd leave it at that and call it good.


Agree 100% with Mike.

Why chance exposing your dog to a behavior or behaviors that are out of your control or out of your hands? It is not fair to your dog or helpful to your training. If you feel you need to work on something specific- set your dog up in a controlled environment where your club members can help out with their dogs instead of non-knowing pet owners.

Julie


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I didn't catch where she said she was allowing him to fence fight...i think she was asking about correcting the behavior if he decides he wanted to give fence fighting a try.


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## Guest (Jun 7, 2010)

What makes you think the dog is "dominant?" To me he sounds reactive in a stimulating environment. Physically correcting the dog, ie. causing pain, for fence fighting is not going to help your dog in any way shape or form. It may mask his behavior temporarily but it *will* resurface... guaranteed, and may be much worse when it does. That is a band-aid at best. The problem with your dog is not a training issue. It is a behavior issue and should be addressed as such. If you are about to compete and he is ok on the field, then don't mess with him too much. Definitely do not start trying to train this behavior out with a prong collar. You would be shooting yourself in the foot. You can try behavior adjustment therapy or systematic desensitization as long term actual treatments but definitely do your research and get your ducks in a row before starting otherwise these things can have a way of getting all jumbled up into something else entirely.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

So you go to the park to have dogs do this to yours on purpose ?? Makes no sense to me at all. Are you just walking around, or is he on a down stay or something ??


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## Sanda Stankovic (Jan 10, 2009)

Vin Chiu said:


> stimulating environment. Physically correcting the dog, ie. causing pain, for fence fighting is not going to help your dog in any way shape or form. It may mask his behavior temporarily but it *will* resurface... guaranteed, and may be much worse when it does. That is a band-aid at best. The problem with your dog is not a training issue. It is a behavior issue and should be addressed as such. If you are about to compete and he is ok on the field, then don't mess with him too much. Definitely do not start trying to train this behavior out with a prong collar.


OK, why is this not a training issue? Isnt all training trying to alter behaviour/desensitize dogs in different environments. You know, train at home, train somewhere else, increase distractions? And other dogs barking at him is a distraction I guess. I dont think she is allowing fence fighting... Can you expand on what you said because I am confused... Also, how would you address this as a behaviour issue differently than if it was a training issue.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Sue Miller said:


> I'm trying to neutralize the effect of the barking, charging dogs. Do you think that's possible? He's truly dominant & I'm wondering if I can *change* his reaction.


 
Get Dr. Patricai McConnell's Book on Aggression....It's awesome. I think without a plan, you could exhasterbate the problem....One the Fence is probably making things worse. Barriers between dogs often cause dogs to make a hell of a scene.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

As far as I know (and I'm beginning to wonder what I do know) dominance is only apparent in the "pack". Everything else is aggression towards other dogs, mainly, but not always (??) coming down the lead of the owner.

My dogs on the lead are not allowed to show any aggression to other dogs, even if the other dog shows aggression.

Happened to me at the vets the other day - dog appeared, owner behind "Oh no, a GSD - that's not good." Thing was, her dog came forward and growled ferociously and mine started until I "hung" him.

Most "dominance" gestures are not dominance but badly behaved and not corrected dogs.


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## Maureen A Osborn (Feb 12, 2010)

Matthew Grubb said:


> Consistancy, a reward, and a good pinch collar will change his reaction all right!
> 
> It's a great training opertunity and something he needs to know will not be tolerated by you..... the boss.


Have to disagree with the pinch collar correction with dog/dog aggression with some dogs. With some dogs, a correction to dog aggression only escalates the dog aggression, let it be from a choke,pinch, or e-collar.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Maureen A Osborn said:


> Have to disagree with the pinch collar correction with dog/dog aggression with some dogs. With some dogs, a correction to dog aggression only escalates the dog aggression, let it be from a choke,pinch, or e-collar.


In that case I'd say it wasn't executed correctly. 

If you don't agree with the above, let us know how you fix it?


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I'm not actually interested in whether he wants to react to the other dog's aggressionl, or start it off!!!!

I'm only interested in the fact that he is on the lead held by me and no aggression, pulling, etc. is allowed. It's a direct f..k you Baas! which I do not tolerate.

I'm 1.58 cm and this year I'll be 68 years' old and, excepting one, the Briard, I've never had maintenance "light" dogs. It's how you rear them. Not saying, it's always perfect with us but my dogs know what "Leinenführigkeit" means.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

How close to the fence were you?

If you were training with the loose dogs behind the fence as a distraction from a distance, I think he should be able to ignore them and work through it. If they are face to face, or close enough that a dog on the other side is showing a lot of aggression, I wouldn't do it. Putting a fence between two dogs seems to make them behave like idiots. My own dogs are this way. Why provoke a situation you're not going to see on a schutzhund field?


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## Sanda Stankovic (Jan 10, 2009)

Gillian Schuler said:


> In that case I'd say it wasn't executed correctly.
> 
> If you don't agree with the above, let us know how you fix it?


just from my experience, me yanking on the chain seems to excite her more, if that makes sense? So I found that although I can choke her so that she stops lol, if I distract her with something, like calling her name and rewarding when she does stop her behaviour and pays attention to me, worked million times faster and easier... but you have to do it before she is fully excited about the other dog. 
Still working on self-control.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Sanda, I use both. If I have to correct the dog and he obeys or if he behaves neutrally, then ok. However, some time or other he has to know I won't accept it. Just neutralising the situation can't be the answer, can it?

I don't "yank" on the chain. I give the command "sit" or "down" or "heel" and then if he doesn't obey, I "yank".


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Missed the fact that you were letting them be "face to face" with a fence in between.

My Newfoundler was a perfect gentlemen on the lead but on the one of two occasions we showed him, he was in a collection box with another newfoundland in the neighbouring box - they put up quite a show and gathered quite a crowd. The dogs were not under control so behaved as naturally as they would - no dominance - just rival aggression between two males. Quite a difference to being on the leads.


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## Anne Pridemore (Mar 20, 2010)

I agree with Gillian.

IMO:
Many people would have you give the dog treats and manage him through distractions ("mommy has a cookie for you, don't eat the other dog"). I tried this a while back and after 3 years it did sorta work for a clients dog. (provided they see the dog and get him to "sit" and "watch me" in time) Now I take more of the hand of God approach. The dog will have solid basic obediance, and the dog will comply to the commands regaurdless of the other dogs around him. Down stay is down stay even if the sky is falling.

With my own reactive GSD I wasted a year with clickers, cookies, muzzles, and other such "friendly training equipment". None of it worked after proper application of these "friendly" methods. I changed tactics not wanting my dog to live in a muzzle, confined to the house. I have had to give a total of 2 "hand of God" corrections, and my GSD will now obey no mater how much he wants to eat another dog.

I can take him anywhere now, and he is thrilled to be with me 24-7. (as any good GSD loves their master) I continue to drill his obediance and am starting to transition to off-lead. Once he has mastered that I might look into something else we can train. 

People will always do what works for them, or what makes them happy. So maybe you can give a proper behavior correction and maybe you can't. Only you can know your dogs correction level - and if you don't know how to correct the issue, get a professional in to help you.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

The only thing I am going to say is that real trully dominate dogs don't show much aggression and fence or no fence, other dogs don't get to carried away with a true dominate dog.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

They will on the other side of a fence. LOL They do not live in communities like your dogs do. They will challenge, as they are stupid, badly bred, and badly owned. Even after an ass wupping, many of these dogs will go back to get beat again and again and again. It was this behavior that made me question the whole 50 genetics 50 environment thing.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Different dogs for sure Jeff. I don't think it is 50/50. Moer like 35 genetics and 65 environment but the 35 is the foundation with all the 65 environmental stacked on top. Without the foundation, you got nothing but dogs profiling at the fence.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I didn't write that clearly. It was said at the time that it was 50/50. : )

Still didn't write it for ****s sake. At the time I was thinking about it, the belief was that it was 50/50.


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> The only thing I am going to say is that real trully dominate dogs don't show much aggression and fence or no fence, other dogs don't get to carried away with a true dominate dog.


One of the coolest things I've seen happened at a dog event with my favorite Malinois ever. He was just standing there, minding his own business, and a stupid teenage Terv male got loose from its owner. The Terv rushed the Mal, all blustery and "aggressive." Such a display! By the time it reached the Mal, who just stood his ground as calm as could be, it was like watching a balloon deflate...the Terv just turned around and left like, oh, crap, now why did I do that? The Mal never reacted in an "aggressive" way, just stood there like "do ya really want to take me on?" It was funny.

Laura


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## Adi Ibrahimbegovic (Nov 21, 2008)

Sue Miller said:


> He's normal around other dogs--both male & female. We have lots of dogs in & out that he's exposed to. What I'm wondering is should I expect him not to react to other dogs acting aggressively? He's fine at the club on his long down & doing obedience on the field with other dogs that are under control.
> 
> I was just wondering what other people think.


I left your post in quotes. Re-read your post again. That is plenty good and I'd leave it be. 

Normal around other dogs,male/female - check.
lots of dogs exposed to and does good - check
fine at the club - check
long down good - check
obedience fine and attentive to handler with other dogs on the field -check.

what's the problem? I'd say what's good enough is good enough. I would strongly discourage fence fighting over the dog park fence, nothing good comes out of that.

Ah, yes. I don't do dog parks with my dog, a waste of time. Don't care about mutts, don't care about their owners, don't care about dogs coming up to us. I got him and he got me - perfect.


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## Maureen A Osborn (Feb 12, 2010)

Gillian Schuler said:


> In that case I'd say it wasn't executed correctly.
> 
> If you don't agree with the above, let us know how you fix it?


Nope, most definately executely properly. Guess you haven't owned a dog like a true alpha Dogo Argentino. You have to redirect their attention/aggression with obedience and be one step ahead of the dog and not allow the aggression to another dog happen in the first place, watching body language and surroundings at all times. A dog like a Dogo fights harder from pain, that is what they are bred to do. A pissed off dogo is definately a site you will never forget!


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

You sure your talking about a dogo and not an airedale Maureen?


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## Maureen A Osborn (Feb 12, 2010)

LOL Don...they are both hunting breeds so I can see the same temperament coming out of them too. Love them terriers! When we move down south, we are gonna get a couple of jagds and have some fun hunting them buggers.


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## Kat LaPlante (May 17, 2009)

Mike Scheiber said:


> This prolly should have been done when he was younster and you could controal things better, now you got a young dog who dosent have a clue how to act around other dogs and rank behaviors. Allowing him to fence fight is only going to make frustration and agression worse you say your getting ready to compeat in Schutzhund you will have to do a BH which most times will test your dogs nerve and behavior around other dogs, Schutzhund obediance will have another dog on the field to report in and wile obediance routine is done.


 
Sue are you using the dogs behind the fence as a distraction while training or are you using the fence as protection from an uprising while 'sort of" at the dog park? I would think letting the dog half way socialize would build more frustration than ease the situation. Why not muzzle your dog and just let him go at the park to evaluate and/or desensitize.

I dont and wont bring my pup to the dog park due to health concerns for her age but I also dont care if she is socialized, all she needs to know is that I provide the fun, but my "didnt quite cut it" GSD gets to go all the time. He is dog neutral and I can judge his reactions due ONLY to observing him at the off leash park.....but seriously....regular people at the dog park take as kindly to a big black aloof pointy eared dogs as the do pit bulls. I always leave there feeling like the ugly girl at the junior high dance anyway. :-k but he has a blast!


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