# Heeling corrections



## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

I was curious on peoples thoughts on when they see the need to add in correction to heeling and how they apply it.I was recently watching a work week vid of lance collins from a few years back and they placed a considerable amount of pressure on the dogs if they didnt do as required or as they wanted in there heeling etc.e.g looking away, forging not turning correctly and im pretty sure these were dogs that had the correct positive upbringing so where do people see benefits in corrections that actually sharpen things up and where are mistakes made all to often.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

For me you add corrections when you're positive the dog knows the exercise. The level of correction depends on the dog.
Gene England said many years ago that corrections without understanding is abuse and I agree.


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## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

Very well put Thomas. I made mistakes with my first OB dog when I first taught him to heel. Correcting them meant going back to step one and starting over. No corrections were needed once he knew the exercise and once it was taught correctly. I think a big mistake in teaching any exercise is going too fast and thinking the dog knows the exercise because he did it correct one time. And if a correction is needed you really need to know your dog. A simple correction can really go wrong and cause you a whole new problem.
Been there and done that.


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## kerry engels (Nov 7, 2010)

vicki dickey said:


> Very well put Thomas. I made mistakes with my first OB dog when I first taught him to heel. Correcting them meant going back to step one and starting over. No corrections were needed once he knew the exercise and once it was taught correctly. I think a big mistake in teaching any exercise is going too fast and thinking the dog knows the exercise because he did it correct one time. And if a correction is needed you really need to know your dog. A simple correction can really go wrong and cause you a whole new problem.
> Been there and done that.


 
This has been my experience.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

kerry engels said:


> This has been my experience.



+1


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

By the sounds of it it has a lot to do with the hardness and drives of the dog and what it knows.In the work week videos it does not shut the dogs down and they do not have to go back to the start when a dog has been heeling for 12mths or more and it is basically a conditioned response and your dog drives go up as you say the word for that dog to have to go back to the start i would think thats a soft dog.In fact these dogs take the correction then become closer and more focussed on there handlers.

In the vids its not called a correction its called placing some stress on a dog  so its uncomfortable to not be where you want him to be and nice to be in the right place then break and play which i think is pretty normal stuff same as withholding a reward but inserting stress instead.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

_"for that dog to have to go back to the start i would think thats a soft dog."_


For me to have to go back to the start (or back to where we started going astray) means that my training and proofing have not been good enough.


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

Connie Sutherland said:


> _"for that dog to have to go back to the start i would think thats a soft dog."_
> 
> 
> For me to have to go back to the start (or back to where we started going astray) means that my training and proofing have not been good enough.


Great Connie! Can't always blame the dog.....:-\"


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Steve Estrada said:


> .... Can't always blame the dog.....


You're right. 





_
Let the trainer examine himself when the dog makes a mistake or does not understand the exercise or fails in 
obedience and let him ask "Where am I at fault?"_
- Max von Stephanitz


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Nice point!!! But i was talking about more of the type of dog that shuts down :wink:


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

As a member of Lance's club I can tell you that he has 3 stages of training...

1) showing: In this stage, the dog is learning the exercise. You will generally not see any corrections and it is 100% motivational and you will see us helping the dog learn. In some cases there may be some very slight stress applied if absolutely necessary (like perhaps initiating the dog to back up by stepping on its toes in the beginning of the heeling process. Even there the dogs have been conditioned to back up from an early age in terms of playing tug, and stepping on toes is one of the tricks that might be applied to teach a dog to back up and pull when playing tug.)

2) securing: the dog is clearly beyond the learning phase, so corrections will begin to be applied for incorrect behavior. 

3) proofing: The dog clearly demonstrates that not only does he know the exercise but can turn any stress off by working through the stress, and able to turn off the correction whatever that might be. Mostly e-collar stimulation these days as opposed to more leash corrections a few years back. At this stage distractions are introduced to the training. 

As far as heeling we do a lot of focus work (sit and pay attention) before we ever start the heeling process. The dog will not move forward to heeling until sit and pay attention, with good expression is maintained under intensive distractions and is demonstrably secured and proofed.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Thanks for chimining in Steve i thought you were in that club and was hoping someone from there might be able to add some insight.Why the move to the E? seemed the method was working.I just checked and some of the vids i was watching were from 04 LOL but some good stuff in them.


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

brad robert said:


> Nice point!!! But i was talking about more of the type of dog that shuts down :wink:


Usually a dog shuts down or opts out because it doesn't want to be there or doesn't have the correct drives or temperament. Dogs seek comfort & you see dogs in competition that shouldn't be there except for handler/owner has expectations that aren't reasonable. Kinda like being married! (which I'm not \\/)


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

brad robert said:


> Thanks for chimining in Steve i thought you were in that club and was hoping someone from there might be able to add some insight.Why the move to the E? seemed the method was working.I just checked and some of the vids i was watching were from 04 LOL but some good stuff in them.


 That would be ancient history in terms of training methods for us. 
We changed over for a host of reasons. Clearer for the dog, more consistancy in the work, more timely corrections, less telegraphing to the dog. Overall better results. 

The system continues to evolve, even from say 2 years ago. We did get good results, but good is not good enough for Lance. He states he does not like to hear Whoosh sounds, which is what he describes as the sound people make when they blow past you.


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

brad robert said:


> Thanks for chimining in Steve i thought you were in that club and was hoping someone from there might be able to add some insight.Why the move to the E? seemed the method was working.I just checked and some of the vids i was watching were from 04 LOL but some good stuff in them.


 I did not make it to my first work week until February, 2005, which is the time I joined the club. I do understand there were a few Aussies at the 2004 WW so it makes sense there would be video from that WW available to you. That first ww in 2005 was memorable to me, not only because it was my initial exposure there but also because Jurgen Ritzi was there working dogs. It was also the last one where it was more open to people. It is more of a closed event these days.


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## Peter Cho (Apr 21, 2010)

"you constantly learn and change or you hear WHOOSH". So true.
I read from Brian Tracy that the definition of genius is being so good due to the fact that you obsessively strive to improve EVERY day, incrementally.
I think this is Lance Collins. 

Everything is broken down to the absolute smallest basics. It is a system. And he explains it in a scientific, logical way, in terms of animal behavior.

This system has no compulsion. At it core, it is a system that 100% allows the dog complete control over its behaviour. They always have a choice to do what it is supposed to do (100% certain) or what they should not do (even with distraction) which leads to stress. Dogs always go from stress to no stress with timed rewards.

I hear that LC is a hard trainer. Hard on dogs. I really do not get that. By logic, this cannot create happy dogs performing at the level he demands, with such power and percision. now, if he has to FIX a problem that has been ingrained for years and you ask him to FIX it...........well, the threshhold required to change the behavior is going to be high. 

So, in heeling, if a dog is looking away......you have to ask yourself, does he know sit and pay attention? Does he know how to back up? Does he know how to get reward from handler (how to play)? I suppose these are fundamental questions that everyone would say yes to. I can honestly say........I DID NOT KNOW WHAT THOSE THINGS MEANT until I saw West Coast train. And i had titled dogs. But I really did not know.

By the way, the stuff he does with the e collar in protection to channel dogs drives is amazing. Timing.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Steve Burger said:


> That would be ancient history in terms of training methods for us.
> We changed over for a host of reasons. Clearer for the dog, more consistancy in the work, more timely corrections, less telegraphing to the dog. Overall better results.
> 
> The system continues to evolve, even from say 2 years ago. We did get good results, but good is not good enough for Lance. He states he does not like to hear Whoosh sounds, which is what he describes as the sound people make when they blow past you.


Awesome thanks for the explanation :-D



Steve Burger said:


> I did not make it to my first work week until February, 2005, which is the time I joined the club. I do understand there were a few Aussies at the 2004 WW so it makes sense there would be video from that WW available to you. That first ww in 2005 was memorable to me, not only because it was my initial exposure there but also because Jurgen Ritzi was there working dogs. It was also the last one where it was more open to people. It is more of a closed event these days.


 Yep im also pretty sure there is some aussies in the vid.Whats the main reason that the WW have become more closed doors affair?


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Peter Cho said:


> "you constantly learn and change or you hear WHOOSH". So true.
> I read from Brian Tracy that the definition of genius is being so good due to the fact that you obsessively strive to improve EVERY day, incrementally.
> I think this is Lance Collins.
> 
> ...


Great Post Peter Thank You!!


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

brad robert said:


> Awesome thanks for the explanation :-D
> 
> 
> Yep im also pretty sure there is some aussies in the vid.Whats the main reason that the WW have become more closed doors affair?


Aussies that have come that come to mind..Reggie and John?. Also Mark Gomersall and Gabi Hoffman (Lance's wife) both originally from Austalia have been members for a little longer than me. 

It has become more closed to make sure it is more people that are truly interested in the system. On top of that the obvious reasons..avoiding people who are clueless who freak out when they see a correction and then run and spread a bunch of bs. People who are not really interested in the training but are there more for the social aspects. cuts down on the number of people where the training is too far over their head. Too much of an undertaking for club members (when you have 15-18 club members and 70 to 80 guests like it was in 2005 then it just becomes too much to handle and the people that do come and are serious just do not get as much out of it as they would in a more smaller venue with say 30-40 non-club members.

Overall the ww is about higher level training. When you have to spend a whole lot of time on fundamental aspects of training and handling for relative newcomers to the sport, then there is less time for advanced theory and training. 

There has been some talk about putting on a mini-work week which is more Schutzhund 101, but this has not yet gone beyond the contemplative stage.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Steve Burger said:


> That would be ancient history in terms of training methods for us.
> We changed over for a host of reasons. Clearer for the dog, more consistancy in the work, more timely corrections, less telegraphing to the dog. Overall better results.
> 
> The system continues to evolve, even from say 2 years ago. We did get good results, but good is not good enough for Lance. He states he does not like to hear Whoosh sounds, which is what he describes as the sound people make when they blow past you.


It makes sense to scale the WW down to what are better sessions for more experienced people i see the value in that.

One more thing about adding the E to the training are you saying u dont use the pinch at all anymore?? And for OB how is the E used e.g low levels? constant? nick? how is this being applied??


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> _"for that dog to have to go back to the start i would think thats a soft dog."_
> 
> 
> For me to have to go back to the start (or back to where we started going astray) means that my training and proofing have not been good enough.



+100


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

brad robert said:


> It makes sense to scale the WW down to what are better sessions for more experienced people i see the value in that.
> 
> One more thing about adding the E to the training are you saying u dont use the pinch at all anymore?? And for OB how is the E used e.g low levels? constant? nick? how is this being applied??


A pinch is still used, though not nearly as much as it used to be. I actually got barked at for using it today, LOL. E is used in many ways, low level stims on constant, used until completion of task. Also used at higher levels as a correction in proofing stages. In some cases at high levels to block behavior.


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## kamphuis gerben (Jan 29, 2009)

maybe its interesting to take a look at mia skogster 
i know she opened up my eyes 
i started training in obedience more in her way and i see big advantage 
why just take a look
ofcourse i know abit off training myself but she takes it to a differend level
iff you can understand offcourse 
hope everybody sees what i saw


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