# Dog to be used for nothing but breeding



## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Question is because I won't sell her to be used just for breeding does that make me a shit head. I have only had a few calls on here thus far and thats what they have consisted of with the exception of one call](*,). Second question am I wrong for her wanting to continue to be worked as well if they are going to be bred, because to me thats the only way she will be sold if she is continued to be worked.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Harry Keely said:


> Question is because I won't sell her to be used just for breeding does that make me a shit head. I have only had a few calls on here thus far and thats what they have consisted of with the exception of one call](*,). Second question am I wrong for her wanting to continue to be worked as well if they are going to be bred, because to me thats the only way she will be sold if she is continued to be worked.


why would it make you a shithead ? if thats what you want then thats what you want but why dont you want her to be used for breeding only ? theres so many things to consider here, you might think she is a good dog and a prospect buyer might disagree and then theres the whole...sure ill work her I PROMISE and after a short while she isnt worked but used for breeding only...its not something i think you can avoid...may i ask why you are selling her to begin with ?


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Your a shit head, but not for that.:razz:

I agree with your stance on this. I would not sell a dog to someone that just wants to bred her either.


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## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

how will you ever know?
you going to make house calls?
if not then maybe you just want someone to tell you they will work her so you can feel better about selling her?

i am not singling you out. I have see a few adoption contracts that read if you ever get rid of the dog you MUST return it to them.
But most dogs they adopt out they never talk tot he person ever again and i always wondered how they enforced that clause


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Mike Lauer said:


> how will you ever know?
> you going to make house calls?
> if not then maybe you just want someone to tell you they will work her so you can feel better about selling her?
> 
> ...


Mike, most people will tell you. And if they lie to me about their intentions; that's on them. As long as I tried to get the bitch in, what I think is a good home, I will feel OK.

And yes it's all about emotion. :wink:


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Alice Bezemer said:


> why would it make you a shithead ? if thats what you want then thats what you want but why dont you want her to be used for breeding only ? theres so many things to consider here, you might think she is a good dog and a prospect buyer might disagree and then theres the whole...sure ill work her I PROMISE and after a short while she isnt worked but used for breeding only...its not something i think you can avoid...may i ask why you are selling her to begin with ?


No problemo, I will tell you. Have no intentions of any breedings myself again for a while do to time restraints of the business and if I don't have the proper time for imprinting and all that good stuff then to me why bother breeding. Also my wifey is prego and do on April 3rd. Also a possible chance of my wife job relocation](*,). Just a few things on the plate:lol:.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> Your a shit head, but not for that.:razz:
> 
> I agree with your stance on this. I would not sell a dog to someone that just wants to bred her either.


Christopher I admire your honesty, Honesty is what seperates men from children.:wink:


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Mike Lauer said:


> how will you ever know?
> you going to make house calls?
> if not then maybe you just want someone to tell you they will work her so you can feel better about selling her?
> 
> ...


I would never know depending on where she ended up, Nope no house call visits:lol:, I am one though that does keep up with the dogs on occasion especially if I get bored I will break out the telephone book or email and send a shout out to folks just asking how Bla Bla is doing. Of course not all of them in one clip and then I have some really good working folk who call me before I can call them. Those are the ones I really appreciate and enjoying dealing with in the K-9 world.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Mike Lauer said:


> how will you ever know?
> you going to make house calls?
> if not then maybe you just want someone to tell you they will work her so you can feel better about selling her?
> 
> ...


It's all in the contract Mike. My stipulation in my contracts that it is a non breeding contract and the only way it can get lifted if that the dog shows exceptional character and working conformation then gets titled in a working venue or gets a working certification .. Plus it has to pass all health clearances for the particular breed before anything gets lifted. The onus is on the buyer then. When you register these non breed agreements with your national kennel club. The buyer has no hope in hell to get registration for any litters that the bitch produces, unless it is signed off from you. 

Sure it isn't going to stop backyard breeders and the like. But you should be able figure that out pretty early in the game in your initial screening of puppy buyers what type of home it is. When in doubt the price goes up and up and up or slam the door it's simple. 

I'd rather hold on to a pup and foster it in a volunteer SAR or a sport home that needs a replacement dog and hold back breeding rights for myself then sell a dog to someone I don't feel comfortable in from the get go.


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Geoff Empey said:


> It's all in the contract Mike. My stipulation in my contracts that it is a non breeding contract and the only way it can get lifted if that the dog shows exceptional character and working conformation then gets titled in a working venue or gets a working certification .. Plus it has to pass all health clearances for the particular breed before anything gets lifted. The onus is on the buyer then. When you register these non breed agreements with your national kennel club. The buyer has no hope in hell to get registration for any litters that the bitch produces, unless it is signed off from you.


Trying not to derail here, but is that just a written contract you submit, or is it more like AKC where you put the dog on limited registration until proof is provided, then the limited reg is lifted to full registration (where litters and such can be registered)?

Most actual written contracts (even if written by an attorney) aren't worth the paper they were written on, at least in the US. That's why I asked because I see you're Canadian and was wondering if it's different?


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## sam wilks (May 3, 2009)

Your not a shithead, but heres a few things to consider. Just because they are going to use a dog for breeding, don't mean they are going to treat her bad. Also, maybe you could look at it like, you are asking for a price that you think is fair, and if they are willing to pay that, then be happy. That is a good point that you really wont know what they are doing with the bitch anyway.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Ashley Campbell said:


> Trying not to derail here, but is that just a written contract you submit, or is it more like AKC where you put the dog on limited registration until proof is provided, then the limited reg is lifted to full registration (where litters and such can be registered)?
> 
> Most actual written contracts (even if written by an attorney) aren't worth the paper they were written on, at least in the US. That's why I asked because I see you're Canadian and was wondering if it's different?


No it's the same limited registration with the CKC until the conditions in the written contract are filled or another agreement is inked. Without the full registration good luck registering a litter. Here is the CKC non breeding agreement http://www.ckc.ca/en/LinkClick.aspx...gistration/13-101-05-05.pdf&tabid=90&mid=1276 this is not including the individual written contract as well. The CKC takes this pretty seriously to the point of being anal retentive.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

If she's full adult size, why not just spay her? Include the price of the spay in the sale price if you like. Then you don't have to worry about it. Plus whoever buys her doesn't have to mess with interruptions to training due to heats.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

sam wilks said:


> Your not a shithead, but heres a few things to consider. Just because they are going to use a dog for breeding, don't mean they are going to treat her bad. Also, maybe you could look at it like, you are asking for a price that you think is fair, and if they are willing to pay that, then be happy. That is a good point that you really wont know what they are doing with the bitch anyway.


Sam, No with the exception of one the first question is has she been fixed since bred ( hint hint ) at least to me thats a tell tale sign. Then I asked about her future arrangements because of the intitial question even before a intro of who they are. Pretty much told she would be kept in a kennel for breeding. Ask will she be worked and utilized. ALL and I mean all had a hesitation with a response along the lines of well we are kinda looking for a breeding dog. I have no problem with her being bred but at the same time I don't want her just thrown in a kennel and bred non stop to whatever male. So I rather just reply with shes not for sale unless its the right situation.

One person called though and I wished they would of scooped her up, but i guess I'm not a good " Used Dog Salesman :-$".


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> If she's full adult size, why not just spay her? Include the price of the spay in the sale price if you like. Then you don't have to worry about it.


Because I am not a firm believer of spay or neuter ( don't tell Peta ), I believe in responsible ownership, Also I wouldn't mind her being bred to the right male to continue the breed on as well as being worked to and having a useful active lifestyle. Her first litter was jam up, and turned out pretty nice and there all working for what they were originally purchased for, They will be a year on Oct.12 and so far no complaints. I had thought about it and even discussed it but we still decide against it. 

If she ends up staying it wouldn't break my heart, I just figured get rid of the female because we plan on no breedings anytime in the near future with a busy time coming up in our lifes. We can always breed our male and get a female pick in the future if he turns out to be good enough to breed if we were wanting a other female way down the road.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

While I'm about responsible ownership, I'm also about convenience. :lol: Having intact females that are not likely to be used for breeding is a pain in the rump for that 3ish weeks twice a year. Both my girl working dogs are spayed as they were both rescues, but I don't mind a bit.

I suppose when it comes down to it, that's probably the only way you can 100% know an intact female you sell won't be bred. She could still be bred and the puppies sold unregistered in the parking lot of Wal-Mart for all you know with no respect to your wishes, but that's part of selling intact animals, I guess. I don't think you're a jerk for wanting her to be worked and I think that is a reasonable stipulation, but realistically people can also do whatever they want once she leaves your place. Even so called friends...


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Geoff Empey said:


> No it's the same limited registration with the CKC until the conditions in the written contract are filled or another agreement is inked. Without the full registration good luck registering a litter. Here is the CKC non breeding agreement http://www.ckc.ca/en/LinkClick.aspx...gistration/13-101-05-05.pdf&tabid=90&mid=1276 this is not including the individual written contract as well. The CKC takes this pretty seriously to the point of being anal retentive.


Oh now that's different. From what I know of AKC (which is pretty limited so correct me if I am wrong) we don't have a "non-breeding agreement' to submit - the breeder has the option of limited registration and a drafted contract either by themselves or attorney - but not something like that.
Granted, you can't register a litter with AKC if the parent has limited reg. but I am told that an AKC limited reg dog can get full reg with UKC - not sure how true that is either. 

I don't know, I won't buy dogs on limited registration just on principle. I figure if I pay full price for it I'm paying for the registration, and that the dog belongs to me and I can do what I wish with it - same goes on co-ownerships etc. If I want to spay/neuter the animal, I'm going to and don't need anyone to tell me I cannot. 

Sorry, back on topic here.

I really don't think it's wrong to want your bitch going to a working home where she won't be just a puppy machine. Though that's going to be easier said than done with placing her with a family that will want to do it. But since you're in the US, you could write up a contract that states they cannot and as long as she has full registration, they still can - you could take them to court but there's really no guarantee you'd win - animals are property, upon purchase, the owner can basically do what they deem fit to the animal within reason. 

I guess the only thing I could say is to carefully screen potential buyers.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Ashley Campbell said:


> Oh now that's different. From what I know of AKC (which is pretty limited so correct me if I am wrong) we don't have a "non-breeding agreement' to submit - the breeder has the option of limited registration and a drafted contract either by themselves or attorney - but not something like that.
> Granted, you can't register a litter with AKC if the parent has limited reg. but I am told that an AKC limited reg dog can get full reg with UKC - not sure how true that is either.
> 
> I don't know, I won't buy dogs on limited registration just on principle. I figure if I pay full price for it I'm paying for the registration, and that the dog belongs to me and I can do what I wish with it - same goes on co-ownerships etc. If I want to spay/neuter the animal, I'm going to and don't need anyone to tell me I cannot.
> ...


Well she has no registration do to the fact of being a non FCI DS so nothing I could do there anyways. I'm not going to go to court over a dog either, because you'll lose to what you exactly stated as far as property of the new owner. I have never known anyone to win in a court from a piece of paper, not saying that there out there but I have never heard of or read about one.

If she ends up in the wrong hands I can only get mad at myself. Her future location is more important then just taking someones money and saying heres your future dog.


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## Jeff Threadgill (Jun 9, 2010)

Harry I think you got basically four options.

1) spay her
2) sell her and forget about it 
3) sell her to someone you know personally
4) keep her

No one wants their dog to go to a puppy farm.


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Harry Keely said:


> Well she has no registration do to the fact of being a non FCI DS so nothing I could do there anyways. I'm not going to go to court over a dog either, because you'll lose to what you exactly stated as far as property of the new owner. I have never known anyone to win in a court from a piece of paper, not saying that there out there but I have never heard of or read about one.
> 
> If she ends up in the wrong hands I can only get mad at myself. Her future location is more important then just taking someones money and saying heres your future dog.


Exactly. My female GSD's breeder had a tizzy over the same thing. She was sold to some guy who I bought her from - apparently she was on contract with the original buyer. I moved to Colorado and contacted the breeder about a question I had. She was PISSED that the dog had been sold and threatened me. I told her go ahead, tough luck, I never signed anything - breeder was SOL as far as I was concerned because I have full reg - there's not a damn thing she can do to me. I think suing people is a waste of time for the most part anyway. 

I think Jeff's options are about right. Since spaying her seems to be out of the question, only due diligence can prevent her from ending up how you don't want her, or keeping her.
Personally, I'd probably keep her. Ever have a case of sellers remorse? I've had one I sold and I still kick myself in the ass over doing it.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Tough call Harry. She's your baby... If she is a breeding quality female that is a proven producer, that you feel improves the "breed" average, then sell her as that, priced accordingly. Screen as best you can and hopefully things will work out the best for her. Hopefully someone you know will buy her, and if not try to make sure she goes to someone who is actively working dogs...and try to stay in touch if you can...about all you can do, or keep her...


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## sam wilks (May 3, 2009)

I will say one thing if you keep her. having a baby is not that big a deal. I have two and kept training right through both of them. moving shouldnt be a big problem either. if it bothers you that much then keep her, cause ill bet youll have an even harder time selling her if shes fixed.


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

I agree with Sam. My last move was a disaster, but it worked out. Me, my mother, 3 kids (one being a 6 month old baby) and 2 dogs - in a 4 door truck from New York to Colorado. The bed of the truck was full because my movers goofed and left a closet full of stuff I needed, so I had 2 large dogs in the cab of the truck along with the 3 kids on the back seat and my mom. 

Motel 6 is your friend if you need to stay over night. Always pet friendly and you can tell them you have 1 and bring more than 1 in the room - they don't check or charge you. 

I can also see your point though, with my move coming up and baby #4 on the way, I'm debating on whether or not I want to find a new home for my male GSD. It's getting to be a lot trying to deal with his asshattery and with the vet appts and such to fly them - I'm thinking it's going to be a lot easier with just 1, and cheaper - I can always buy a 2nd dog once I'm in Germany. But I'm at a disadvantage because I"m the only adult in the house to deal with stuff otherwise it wouldn't really be a concern.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Jeff Threadgill said:


> Harry I think you got basically four options.
> 
> 1) spay her
> 2) sell her and forget about it
> ...


Well 1 & 2 have never been a option, 3 & 4 are possibilities or to a reliable contact of someone I know personally or through a respected individual that recommends.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Ashley Campbell said:


> Exactly. My female GSD's breeder had a tizzy over the same thing. She was sold to some guy who I bought her from - apparently she was on contract with the original buyer. I moved to Colorado and contacted the breeder about a question I had. She was PISSED that the dog had been sold and threatened me. I told her go ahead, tough luck, I never signed anything - breeder was SOL as far as I was concerned because I have full reg - there's not a damn thing she can do to me. I think suing people is a waste of time for the most part anyway.
> 
> I think Jeff's options are about right. Since spaying her seems to be out of the question, only due diligence can prevent her from ending up how you don't want her, or keeping her.
> Personally, I'd probably keep her. Ever have a case of sellers remorse? I've had one I sold and I still kick myself in the ass over doing it.


Yup i have had a case of sellers remorse one of two pic pups which was a male. My wife was pissed at me. But cool thing is I get to see him on occasion at a PD here in the state and keep in touch with the PSD handler.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> Tough call Harry. She's your baby... If she is a breeding quality female that is a proven producer, that you feel improves the "breed" average, then sell her as that, priced accordingly. Screen as best you can and hopefully things will work out the best for her. Hopefully someone you know will buy her, and if not try to make sure she goes to someone who is actively working dogs...and try to stay in touch if you can...about all you can do, or keep her...


This would be ideal, I guess I will play it by year and see how it gos


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

sam wilks said:


> I will say one thing if you keep her. having a baby is not that big a deal. I have two and kept training right through both of them. moving shouldnt be a big problem either. if it bothers you that much then keep her, cause ill bet youll have an even harder time selling her if shes fixed.


Sam don't disagree but like I said there will be no fixings done. The only time I will put a fixing on a dog is if they need because of health issues which she is as strong as a Ox knock on wood


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Ashley Campbell said:


> I agree with Sam. My last move was a disaster, but it worked out. Me, my mother, 3 kids (one being a 6 month old baby) and 2 dogs - in a 4 door truck from New York to Colorado. The bed of the truck was full because my movers goofed and left a closet full of stuff I needed, so I had 2 large dogs in the cab of the truck along with the 3 kids on the back seat and my mom.
> 
> Motel 6 is your friend if you need to stay over night. Always pet friendly and you can tell them you have 1 and bring more than 1 in the room - they don't check or charge you.
> 
> I can also see your point though, with my move coming up and baby #4 on the way, I'm debating on whether or not I want to find a new home for my male GSD. It's getting to be a lot trying to deal with his asshattery and with the vet appts and such to fly them - I'm thinking it's going to be a lot easier with just 1, and cheaper - I can always buy a 2nd dog once I'm in Germany. But I'm at a disadvantage because I"m the only adult in the house to deal with stuff otherwise it wouldn't really be a concern.


Will keep hotel motel holiday inn in mind. Its not so much the move as it is me traveling and leaving a young wife a 4 y/o crazy ass boy a new born and three dogs ( 2 of which that will try to eat a solid door down to get after her when shes in heat --- figure of speech ) with my wife that works 50 hours a week. Once the guarantee of a transfer comes in then I will really never be home between my business, looking for a place to live where ever that ends up being and not only that having to sell my home, packing and then stepping into my business. which will be a whole other ball game in itself. Trying to keep the wifey right where she is and not do something stupid to piss her the **** off:wink:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

The bottom line is that people will tell you what they think you want to hear, then do what they want once the dog is theirs. Human nature!


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Yeah, wifey needs to be really into dogs to want to deal with them that much. Luckily for us, since hubby's gone all the time, and I'm the dog person - it works out. I think I'd be a little irked if he dumped dogs on me though (not literally, but gave me the extra load to take care of), I can certainly see the point. This is the 2nd move I've done without any help, other than employing my mom to help me keep the kids in line, and I feel for you guys. It's a royal pain in the ass.
I feel the pain with the 4 year old, my 4 year old is the middle child and he is a hellion compared to the other two. 

I suggested Motel 6 because last time I tried a holiday inn express, they had a breed restriction and turned me down (might have just been that one though, because of franchising and whatnot). Wouldn't have been so bad but it was in Arkansas and 2 AM, I just wanted OUT of the car and away from my mom at that point, lol.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I have no problems with a bitch being sold just for breeding if she is worth it. 

As far as contracts go, you sell the dog, it is no longer your dog. None of your business anymore, you had your chance to do something, and decided for whatever reason to get rid of the dog. Your loss, someone else's gain.

Just charge more money if you are going to get all emotional, at least get good money.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Not to throw a wrench in here but, Harry, you said you are selling her because you don't plan on breeding her any time soon for various reasons. Sounds kind of like that is the only reason you would keep her yourself.....to breed. Some referred to her as "your baby". I figure if she were your baby you wouldn't be selling her just because you haven't got time to breed her yourself for a while. Or did I read that post wrong?


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

What I always do is search a good home and place the dog there. I'm still the owner since I give the dog for free and I decide what happens to him.
I let the people sign a contract that they are in charge of and responsible for the dog and pay for his food and veterinary cost. They are not allowed to sell him.
Situation stays like that at least 6 months and as long as it takes for me to be sure he has a good home. I check on the dog on a regular basis and if I don't like what I see then I just take him back.

Have done this more then once already and so far it has worked out well. One dog I took away from the new owners twice (first time because they didn't give him enough attention and he was in a dirty kennel, the second time the new owners divorced) and the 3rd home was bingo.

Ok, I don't get money for the dogs, which may sound stupid as I could easily sell them, but I feel better at it.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Martine, I seriously doubt you could do that here without it costing you some serious time and money. First off,you wouldn't get to waltz out of anyones house here with a dog they had for any period of time unless they said "take him". If you tried any sensible person would call the law on you.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Ashley Campbell said:


> Granted, you can't register a litter with AKC if the parent has limited reg. but I am told that an AKC limited reg dog can get full reg with UKC - not sure how true that is either.
> 
> I don't know, I won't buy dogs on limited registration just on principle. I figure if I pay full price for it I'm paying for the registration, and that the dog belongs to me and I can do what I wish with it - same goes on co-ownerships etc. If I want to spay/neuter the animal, I'm going to and don't need anyone to tell me I cannot.


If you are just going to work your dog in say SAR why would you care about limited or full registration? These people don't buy a pup and look at the future prospects for breeding for the most part they don't really care they just want a dog that is healthy and works. I always get suspicious when people at the onset start talking about breeding a pup that hasn't been born yet or is still with the mother not weaned. 

So what is full price? $5000 for a young green dog imported from Europe? $50,000 for a world champion? $1500 for a puppy working prospect? Or $500 for a pet quality pup? 

All of these can either be totally screwed as breeding adults even then they could produce junk or on the flip side totally awesome working dogs come out of something you never thought of being bred. See where I'm getting at? 

That's why I give the option in all my contracts from choice litter pick to a 4th or 5th tier working prospect as well a pet, even the pups I 'gift' to volunteer SAR organizations have the option to reverse the non breeding agreement. If they forge ahead and certify and actually work the dog and the dog turns out into something really special, why wouldn't I? The onus is on them to do it though not on me. 

As easy as it is getting 2 dogs together and having sex, that to me doesn't make anyone a breeder. 

If it was that easy and you could get rich quick, everyone would be doing it. So why would me, you or Harry give someone a free ride when it comes to breeding? To many people *don't* put enough thought into the whole process in the first place. 

To me it's not about the money we all know that there is really not a whole lot of money you can make at breeding in the first place but more about protecting the working qualities of the breed. 

My hats off to you Harry for holding your ground and being the 'shithead' you think that they think you are. It's the ethical thing to do. =D>

Another option for Harry is to foster the female with someone he trusts and do a lease hold back of the registration as well. Say for a few years or a couple of litters before they get full registration. That way he still has a finger in the pie.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

I don't do co-ownership, or breeding rights to dogs. If I sell or give a dog away, after the first week when I know the dog/new owner aren't having any issues, I don't contact anymore about specific dog unless they call me, of which they usually do. It's good to see progress, but if I buy a dog from someone, the last thing I need/want is the previous owner telling me how or what to do with the dog, its mine now. You trusted me/sold her to me, so now, don't worry about it. They can tell you all they will do with the dog or not, but what they really do is something different....either keep her or sell her!

Now am I a shithead?? .....I've been called worse and frankly don't care........


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I sell pups on a limited registration because of the breeding. When I tell people that there are more than a few I never hear from again. Even then most of these people that I never hear from again stated they were just looking for a pet quality dog. They want it cheap even to breed it.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Geoff Empey said:


> Another option for Harry is to foster the female with someone he trusts and do a lease hold back of the registration as well. Say for a few years or a couple of litters before they get full registration. That way he still has a finger in the pie.


there is no registration in these dogs, you CAN register UKC but not really an issue either way..no leverage in witholding paperwork.

Whatever you do Harry hope it works out for ya...


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Not to throw a wrench in here but, Harry, you said you are selling her because you don't plan on breeding her any time soon for various reasons. Sounds kind of like that is the only reason you would keep her yourself.....to breed. Some referred to her as "your baby". I figure if she were your baby you wouldn't be selling her just because you haven't got time to breed her yourself for a while. Or did I read that post wrong?


No problem is going to be on the road alot and don't want issues of her going into heat, or trying to take on the smaller mali. She acts alot like a male and hangs with the boys. but if its a dog her size or smaller ( male ) or female then its on like donkey kong. I probally would consider breeding her to the same male again way way down the road if I was going to keep her or another proven male to be completely honest being that the first litter was nice, but have to have sufficient time for imprinting in my eyes with pups otherwise why bother with it. I don't see that extra time in the near future or up coming few years so I rather not see her go to waste. Joby I think was using that as a figure of speech at least I hope he was HAHA. No you didn't read it wrong, hopely I have explained my point. If worst comes to worst like I said I can always get another female down the road or always bring in a good pup from cross seas or mike in the future.With the wire coming down she deserves and good working situation to avoid not being worked enough or no more I have two others a 9 year old whos collecting dust and will be going to my inlaws to live out the rest of his life and a younger boy that is going to continue to need my time.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Martine Loots said:


> What I always do is search a good home and place the dog there. I'm still the owner since I give the dog for free and I decide what happens to him.
> I let the people sign a contract that they are in charge of and responsible for the dog and pay for his food and veterinary cost. They are not allowed to sell him.
> Situation stays like that at least 6 months and as long as it takes for me to be sure he has a good home. I check on the dog on a regular basis and if I don't like what I see then I just take him back.
> 
> ...


Here Martine and I mean no disrespect but I would end up in jail or worse.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Jody Butler said:


> I don't do co-ownership, or breeding rights to dogs. If I sell or give a dog away, after the first week when I know the dog/new owner aren't having any issues, I don't contact anymore about specific dog unless they call me, of which they usually do. It's good to see progress, but if I buy a dog from someone, the last thing I need/want is the previous owner telling me how or what to do with the dog, its mine now. You trusted me/sold her to me, so now, don't worry about it. They can tell you all they will do with the dog or not, but what they really do is something different....either keep her or sell her!
> 
> Now am I a shithead?? .....I've been called worse and frankly don't care........


I agree with no co-owns, or breeding rights, don't tell people how to own the dog - if I have to tell someone what to do with a dog then obviously thats not the right place for her, thats why she needs the right owner. Yea I have been called worse as well as some otherthings as well oh well, it only hurts if the truth hurts, if its not the truth we roll on which is what I do everyday


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Well appreciate everybody's input, Was wanting to get a feel for if people were on the same wave length of keeping working dogs working or letting them call it a day before there time. As a responsible owner of these dogs I will do whats fit for her, so once again I appreciate everybodys values and outlooks.:smile:


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Harry Keely said:


> I agree with no co-owns, or breeding rights, don't tell people how to own the dog - if I have to tell someone what to do with a dog then obviously thats not the right place for her, thats why she needs the right owner. Yea I have been called worse as well as some otherthings as well oh well, it only hurts if the truth hurts, if its not the truth we roll on which is what I do everyday


Well you are doing the right thing by waiting for the right owner. But isn't that telling someone how to own your dog by not selling it to them? [-X LOL! 

As a breeder you get lots assumptions and expectations from people who want to buy a dog from you. In the end it's your reputation and kennel name that is always on the line.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Martine, I seriously doubt you could do that here without it costing you some serious time and money. First off,you wouldn't get to waltz out of anyones house here with a dog they had for any period of time unless they said "take him". If you tried any sensible person* would call the law on you*.


I could call the law on them because I have the pedigree with me as the owner on it and the microchip is on my name, so who is the "thieve" :wink:


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Harry Keely said:


> Here Martine and I mean no disrespect but I would end up in jail or worse.


Doing this for years already and never had problems. I'm the owner of the dog so how could I get problems with the law?
I guess Belgium is a good country to live \\/


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: If it was that easy and you could get rich quick, everyone would be doing it. So why would me, you or Harry give someone a free ride when it comes to breeding? To many people don't put enough thought into the whole process in the first place. 

Do you have a breeding contract on a cow that you sell ? A chicken ? Horse ?

THis is what gets me, if you are that emotional about the dog, then don't ****ing sell it. Once you sell it, it really is none of your ****ing business. You SOLD the dog. What part of that isn't understood. Just get the money then, or spay the dog and not ever worry about it again.

Harry, you sound like an old woman with all this shit. Just keep the ****ing dog. HA HA you sound like an old woman, trying to keep "precious" safe. HA HA.

Keep the ****ing dog good GOD you people are way too weird to sell shit.


Martine, you would probably get in a lot of trouble here in the states with your take it back attitude. The US is weird that way.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: If it was that easy and you could get rich quick, everyone would be doing it. So why would me, you or Harry give someone a free ride when it comes to breeding? To many people don't put enough thought into the whole process in the first place.
> 
> Do you have a breeding contract on a cow that you sell ? A chicken ? Horse ?
> 
> ...


My sentiments entirely.

Havomg read that a man sued a cigarette company in the Us because he got lung cancer - I guess the "Pond" separates us somewhat.

My breeder sold my dog's mother to someone who paid a price he couldn't refuse! So I got my "Buster" male and she got his mother but spayed before selling. I assume this is usual in Europe as these are FCI dogs.

Harry, do you not know of anyone who would work the dog for you - ownership stays with you? This happens over here.

On the whole though I commend you for your doubts but in the end run only you can decide!!

Toni won't have a bitch because we would have to have it spayed (unless we had 2 bitches). When it turned out that our younger male was monorchide, I suggested selling it - no go as Toni said we will never know what happens to him. The dog is an extremely good worker, so Nuts!!!


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Martine, you would probably get in a lot of trouble here in the states with your take it back attitude. The US is weird that way.


So if someone steals your dog and you can prove with pedigree and microchip that it's your dog, then you can't take it back?


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Martine Loots said:


> So if someone steals your dog and you can prove with pedigree and microchip that it's your dog, then you can't take it back?


 
Just because you have a pedigree and a microchip doesn't mean its still your dog! Look at as many dogs that come in from overseas....they come with chips, pedigrees and titles.....but...THEY WERE SOLD!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

We have pekapoos maltipoos cockapoos and all sorts of shit here. Pedigrees do not mean the same thing. If the owner clocks you on the head with a stick, he is the one in the right, you went to his house.

There are plenty of people who have had major problems getting their dogs back when the people just lied and said they were theirs. Pedigree is not going to help you out here.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> We have pekapoos maltipoos cockapoos and all sorts of shit here. Pedigrees do not mean the same thing. If the owner clocks you on the head with a stick, he is the one in the right, you went to his house.
> 
> *There are plenty of people who have had major problems getting their dogs back* when the people just lied and said they were theirs. Pedigree is not going to help you out here.


It's hard for them to lie when I have their signed declaration with a copy of their identity card.
Works fine over here but then again this is Europe.

Anyway, I didn't have any problems when took the concerned dog out of his kennel. The guy who had him was there but he didn't interfere as the dog would have eaten him alive :mrgreen:


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Martine Loots said:


> So if someone steals your dog and you can prove with pedigree and microchip that it's your dog, then you can't take it back?


People also can remove microchips here and implant new ones...and redo tattoos..


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> People also can remove microchips here and implant new ones...and redo tattoos..



This is done over here too. That's why I'm very picky as to where I place my dogs :wink:


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: If it was that easy and you could get rich quick, everyone would be doing it. So why would me, you or Harry give someone a free ride when it comes to breeding? To many people don't put enough thought into the whole process in the first place.
> 
> Do you have a breeding contract on a cow that you sell ? A chicken ? Horse ?
> 
> ...


AHHHHHHHHHHHHH HAHAHA " Old Woman ", thats pretty good Jeff O, thats a new one for the list, Not trying to be wierd trying to be objective to a good dogs future. Hey if I had a contract for a farm animal you think I can get into selling them Jeff, do you have a contact for me :razz:


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Martine Loots said:


> This is done over here too. That's why I'm very picky as to where I place my dogs :wink:


When it comes down to it all we have is our morals, pride and our dogs, I am on board with you Martine:wink:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Not trying to be wierd trying to be objective to a good dogs future. Hey if I had a contract for a farm animal you think I can get into selling them Jeff, do you have a contact for me 

If it is a good dog, then keep it. 

Dogs are viewed as livestock. Do you think that farmers want a contract when selling a cow ??

Give the dog away, and then you can ask for all kinds of shit. Make someone pay for it, and you need to butt out. You SOLD them the dog.

Is the dog really worth a shit ?? Had lots of offers from people that know the dog, or just people you don't know ?


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Not trying to be wierd trying to be objective to a good dogs future. Hey if I had a contract for a farm animal you think I can get into selling them Jeff, do you have a contact for me
> 
> If it is a good dog, then keep it.
> 
> ...


Agreed not looking to butt in once the dog gos as far as training and all that gos, have never done that and never will unless somebody ask for it. Don't know if I would say the few I had being alot, Only one that was through another forum members club but I guess I am not a " good used dog salesman " - now I can sling some metal though HAHA. Dogs have always been a hobby for me with the occasional selling of one. If the dog wasn't worth a shit and what not and she was just a house dog I would of not even started this thread, I would of just avoided the upheavel and of course the " old woman " comment Im still laughing over that one.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Get the dog spayed Harry, that way the problem is taken care of...no breeding for breeding sake. If someone wants the dog for work or play then that's fine isn't it, so long as it's a good home? It's all very well having an ethic etc. but very often they can be a luxury...looks like you may have to compromise if you want to sleep easy.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Dogs are viewed as livestock. Do you think that farmers want a contract when selling a cow ??
> 
> Give the dog away, and then you can ask for all kinds of shit. Make someone pay for it, and you need to butt out. You SOLD them the dog.


I agree that dogs are livestock and yes .. Farmers get contracts when they sell cows why do you think they have that big *JO* burned into your hiefers flank after you bought it? Is that show cow you bought there Jeff or a bull that you are putting out to stud? LOL! Give the dog away is one thing, sell the dog is another. Contract language, pedigrees, bill of sale, transfer of ownership. 

I find quite funny and hard to believe knowing how such a litigioussociety that the USA is that more than one person in this thread has said contracts after a dog is sold are not worth the paper it is written on. Not like that here the CKC will suspend and throw people out of the organization for hanky panky behaviour. The CKC itself is incorporated under the Animal Pedigree act, and is a federal statute under the Ministry of Agriculture, hence the livestock connotation.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Geoff Empey said:


> I agree that dogs are livestock and yes .. Farmers get contracts when they sell cows why do you think they have that big *JO* burned into your hiefers flank after you bought it? Is that show cow you bought there Jeff or a bull that you are putting out to stud? LOL! Give the dog away is one thing, sell the dog is another. Contract language, pedigrees, bill of sale, transfer of ownership.
> 
> I find quite funny and hard to believe knowing how such a litigioussociety that the USA is that more than one person in this thread has said contracts after a dog is sold are not worth the paper it is written on. Not like that here the CKC will suspend and throw people out of the organization for hanky panky behaviour. The CKC itself is incorporated under the Animal Pedigree act, and is a federal statute under the Ministry of Agriculture, hence the livestock connotation.


I see your point Geoff. 

But you still seem to be stuck on registries and paperwork...the dog is not papered. NO registry...

Even if it was, if the person owns multiple dogs, how can anyone prove what dog is what? "oh, that dog, he died last winter...." he got stolen " this is a different dog...look, here are his papers..."check his microchip" (which are both not the same as the dog when it was sold)

hanky panky has to be PROVEN...not just suspected...some people would just give a dog back with the threat of being sued, but if they don't not much can really be done about it....and if they really want to keep the dog, AKC is not gonna take it from them, they might suspend the papers, but papers can be faked or dogs sold without papers...

most people are honest people..some are not...


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: and of course the " old woman " comment Im still laughing over that one.

It was supposed to be funny. Glad it worked.

Quote: Not like that here the CKC will suspend and throw people out of the organization for hanky panky behaviour. The CKC itself is incorporated under the Animal Pedigree act, and is a federal statute under the Ministry of Agriculture, hence the livestock connotation.

Not here. You will spend more than the dog is worth to deal with the situation, and that is not good business. If I sell you a dog, it is YOUR dog. YOU paid for it. I don't do contracts. If I say I will not breed a dog, I will not breed a dog. If I say I will title the dog, then I will try as hard as I can to do so. If I want a dog for breeding, for sport, or whatever, that is what I am paying money for. Not so anyone can have a say after I paid money. Anyone who signs a contract is a sucker.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: and of course the " old woman " comment Im still laughing over that one.
> 
> It was supposed to be funny. Glad it worked.
> 
> ...


It was funny, I got no problem admitting that, I give credit where credit is do.


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Geoff Empey said:


> If you are just going to work your dog in say SAR why would you care about limited or full registration? These people don't buy a pup and look at the future prospects for breeding for the most part they don't really care they just want a dog that is healthy and works. I always get suspicious when people at the onset start talking about breeding a pup that hasn't been born yet or is still with the mother not weaned.
> 
> So what is full price? $5000 for a young green dog imported from Europe? $50,000 for a world champion? $1500 for a puppy working prospect? Or $500 for a pet quality pup?
> 
> ...


It doesn't matter if I pay $100 or $10,000 for a dog - it's my opinion that it is my property and thus I have the right to do as I please within reason - in the US, animals are property just like a car. To retain that right, I will not buy dogs on limited reg or co-ownerships. Co-ownerships I've seen go sour easily - screw that. What if my opinion of the dog differs from the breeder and they don't release the limited registration? Oh then I'm stuck with a dog that I might as well have the vet spay/neuter no matter how well it works for me, if the breeder doesn't agree, they don't have to lift the registration.

That being said, my GSD bitch has full registration, is 2.5 years old, and has never been bred - obviously I just bought her to be a puppy machine right? My family breeds horses. None of our horses go out on contract. Either you pay for it, or you don't get it. What you're paying for is the right to ownership and registration of that animal. We don't sell it if we want to breed to it later on - the new owner has the right to breed it, geld it, or sell it to auction because it belongs to THEM.

Sorry that might be a deal breaker for a lot of breeders, but when I look at dogs thinking about where I want to buy one, I look at their website. I see the words contract or limited reg. and I go to the next site. Not because I want dogs specifically for breeding, I have no problem altering an animal that I do not feel is of any kind of quality, but because if I'm going to put my money up for something, I then own it and it's no longer the breeders business what I do with it. 

So yeah, if I sell you my Mustang Geoff, would you want me telling you "Ok, you're going to pay me $10,000 for the car, but you cannot modify it in any way or put anything but super premium fuel in it or I won't release the title" - You'd probably tell me to take the car and stick it. Once you pay me for the car, it's YOUR car legally and no longer any of my concern.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Ashley Campbell said:


> It doesn't matter if I pay $100 or $10,000 for a dog - it's my opinion that it is my property and thus I have the right to do as I please within reason - in the US, animals are property just like a car. To retain that right, I will not buy dogs on limited reg or co-ownerships. Co-ownerships I've seen go sour easily - screw that. What if my opinion of the dog differs from the breeder and they don't release the limited registration? Oh then I'm stuck with a dog that I might as well have the vet spay/neuter no matter how well it works for me, if the breeder doesn't agree, they don't have to lift the registration.
> 
> That being said, my GSD bitch has full registration, is 2.5 years old, and has never been bred - obviously I just bought her to be a puppy machine right? My family breeds horses. None of our horses go out on contract. Either you pay for it, or you don't get it. What you're paying for is the right to ownership and registration of that animal. We don't sell it if we want to breed to it later on - the new owner has the right to breed it, geld it, or sell it to auction because it belongs to THEM.
> 
> ...


Sure it doesn't matter what you do or don't do with your animal. If you want that animal you will do what it takes to get it as well if you see something that is to your advantage. If that requires some conditions of titling a dog before full registration for breeding you'd do it. It's not like it's black and white the contract is there to protect both people buyer as well. If you title the dog and the breeder refuses full registration well the breeder is in breach. It's not about the breeders putting their nose into your business. It's an agreement between the 2 parties nothing less, if you like buying a pup off the back of a pick up truck in the local home depot parking lot that's your business as well. 

Sure I'll buy that Mustang for $10,000 slap a Supercharger and slicks on it and take it to Laguna Seca and drive the snot out of it are you still going to honour the warranty for me after I blow it up? After all I bought from you in good faith!  Sorry about the AvGas blowing the heads off. LOL.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Geoff Empey said:


> Sure I'll buy that Mustang for $10,000 slap a Supercharger and slicks on it and take it to Laguna Seca and drive the snot out of it are you still going to honour the warranty for me after I blow it up? After all I bought from you in good faith!  Sorry about the AvGas blowing the heads off. LOL.


Sounds like you are missing more than a few pieces to your complete the job, I'd hope you do more than just put a supercharger on a car that you plan on running AvGas though. Yes, I'm messing with you - no need to reply.


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Geoff Empey said:


> Sure it doesn't matter what you do or don't do with your animal. If you want that animal you will do what it takes to get it as well if you see something that is to your advantage. If that requires some conditions of titling a dog before full registration for breeding you'd do it. It's not like it's black and white the contract is there to protect both people buyer as well. If you title the dog and the breeder refuses full registration well the breeder is in breach. It's not about the breeders putting their nose into your business. It's an agreement between the 2 parties nothing less, if you like buying a pup off the back of a pick up truck in the local home depot parking lot that's your business as well.
> 
> Sure I'll buy that Mustang for $10,000 slap a Supercharger and slicks on it and take it to Laguna Seca and drive the snot out of it are you still going to honour the warranty for me after I blow it up? After all I bought from you in good faith!  Sorry about the AvGas blowing the heads off. LOL.


That's my point exactly - there is NO dog I want so bad that is worth that kind of hassle to me. Just like a car, I'll go buy elsewhere if that breeders "product" is more trouble than it's worth to me. Obviously I'm not alone in thinking that, I don't see Jeff O going "oh I'll sign that contract that doesn't let me do jack shit with the dog" - if you can get people to buy like that, good for you, but I, personally, would NEVER buy a dog on contract.

And there's the common misconception. You don't have to buy from a skeezy breeder to get a dog without contract. Doesn't have to be "off the back of the truck in Home Depots parking lot" - you just feed into the hype that *GOOD* breeders ONLY sell on contract and spay/neuter contracts and fairies and unicorns and rainbows. I'm going to call BS on that, I can think of at least 1 breeder off the top of my head with health tested and titled stock that sells on full registration - no contract.I'm sure others can chime in.

But hey, whatever helps you sleep at night. Don't have to be upset because I would refuse to buy from any breeder that thinks they still own* MY* dog after I shell out $1000+.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I have two dogs from a good breeder in US, no contract.

I have two dogs from France, no contract.

I have no idea why anyone would think that paying for a dog, AND signing a contract is a good idea. However, the longer the contract, the more you can charge for the dog it seems when I did a little research.

Maybe I can get cash penalties for every month over ____ that they do not get a title on the dog. It really is all in the perception. Think AKC papers really matter ?? LOL

It is like USMRA being a member of AWDF. What dumbass came up with that idea ? Like they give two ****s about us. LOL


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

I'd never buy a dog if I have to sign a contract either. The moment I pay for it, it's mine and I do exactly what I want with it.

That's also the reason I don't charge money if I place a dog somewhere. If I'd let the people pay for it then it's theirs and I'd lose all control over the animal.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: That's also the reason I don't charge money if I place a dog somewhere. If I'd let the people pay for it then it's theirs and I'd lose all control over the animal.

I will never understand this either. If you am getting rid of the dog, why all the need for "control" ?? LOL

At least I am good with this. Just will never get it. If I have to "control" something, which I don't, I would just keep it.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote:
> At least I am good with this. Just will never get it. If I have to "control" something, which I don't, I would just keep it.


I think that sums the whole thread up in a nutshell!


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Toni won't have a bitch because we would have to have it spayed (unless we had 2 bitches). When it turned out that our younger male was monorchide, I suggested selling it - no go as Toni said we will never know what happens to him. The dog is an extremely good worker, so Nuts!!!


Nutty moment:

If it were from an "A" Litter and not "D", we could have called him "Adolf"!!!


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: That's also the reason I don't charge money if I place a dog somewhere. If I'd let the people pay for it then it's theirs and I'd lose all control over the animal.
> 
> I will never understand this either. If you am getting rid of the dog, why all the need for "control" ?? LOL
> 
> At least I am good with this. Just will never get it.* If I have to "control" something, which I don't, I would just keep it*.


I know what you mean and I agree with that.
I used to keep them. It doesn't happen that much that I want to get rid of a dog and I have plenty of room to keep them, so that's what I used to do.

The dogs we don't keep aren't shitters. Our standards are very high so if a dog doesn't meet those this doesn't mean he's a bad dog.
When I decided not to continue with the KNPV dog I had, I wanted to keep him first, because he was a hell of a good PP dog. 
I put him in a kennel with enough space to run around and I took him for a hike every day and I felt good at it. But the dog didn't. He wanted to work and each time we left for training with the other dogs, he was frustrated.
And then I met the police officer who was looking for a good dog to work the streets and Paco was exactly what he wanted. I liked the guy and with pain in my heart I decided to give him the dog but under certain conditions, which I already described.
I was kinda heartbroken when he came to pick him up, but the guy was thrilled and Paco would be his nbr 1, something the dog deserved (with us he was nbr 5 or 6).

It worked out great and Paco turned out to be the best dog that officer ever had. He's 8 yrs old now and still working the streets.
And I could find peace with it too, knowing the dog had a better life there.
After Paco I placed other dogs in a similar way and it works fine.
I perfectly know what type my dogs are and when I look out for a new owner, I know exactly what type of people he'll fit to. I'd never give the dog to someone who couldn't handle him.
If you are objective and honest about that, then mostly it works out fine.


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