# PETA video on ecollar use



## Gerald Guay

Apparently some titles will be revoked because of this video? Anyone know more.

http://www.peta.de/web/teletakter.7712.html


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## Thomas Barriano

What did the Germans ever do to deserve us sending them PETA?


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## Ben Thompson

Germans use shock collars? I thought they were the shock collar.


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## Matt Vandart

Can't read german, what was the video on about?


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## Thomas Barriano

Matt

I don't read German either but I'm guessing since e-collars are banned in some parts of Europe that this video was shot to get the people using them in trouble with the Authorities?


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## Haz Othman

I dont get why the SV and the other GSD folk in Germany dont tell PETA where to stuff their nonsense.


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## Ted Summers

translation


Cruelty to the dog place: Systematic use of electric shocks?

PETA investigators documented the use of legally prohibited Teletact devices
As of September 2013
In the summer of 2013 investigators documented by PETA Germany eV using a covert research Teletact devices on various dog courses - a dangerous projects among people who want to train their dogs too Beißmaschinen. Violations of the law are thereby clearly to life, because the use of tele-stroke equipment for dog training is explicitly forbidden by the Animal Welfare Act for years. Also on dogs places that belong to the Association for German Shepherd Dogs (SV), which in turn is affiliated to the Association of the German Kennel Club (VDH) , find the animal torturing appliances obviously use.


Tele-stroke transmitter
Tele-stroke transmitter

The comment to the Animal Welfare Act (shepherd / Maisack / Moritz, 2nd edition, 2007, § 3 para 63 et seq) writes to ban electric collars: "That cause these devices to a direct effect of current on the animal and its natural behavior and in particular its significantly restrict movement, is undoubtedly (...). " While the goal of the legislator with the inclusion of the prohibition of electric collars was the Animal Welfare Act to go to protect animals through the legal situation existing at that time, but it seems "Despite these laws [..] but in practice, particularly the use of tele-stroke machines in the training and the use of sport dogs to have become commonplace. " , the Higher Regional Court of Oldenburg ruled already that the fear of the dog in front of (further) surges considerable suffering can mean. During SV seems to use these devices to be normal. As PETA's research shows even use members met with the tele-strokes. It is assumed that the parties concerned to act deliberately and consciously. PETA filed against suspects all dog owners display on suspicion of unlawful use of animal protection Teletact devices in the dog training.




Stop animal cruelty to dogs places!
The use of anti Teletact animal protection devices must be stopped. Dog owners who torment their dogs with electric shocks or threaten them must learn sharp consequences - even from their clubs. Please support our appeal to the leaders of the SV and the VHD for the exclusion of cruel to animals! must of course dog owners, who have qualified through the animal tormenting Teletact method to participate at the national championships in 2013 - virtually the German Championship of the "protection dog sports" - disqualified and will be permanently banned.


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## patricia powers

i remember back in 2000-2003, i attended a couple of flinks seminars & he mentioned that e-collars had been banned in germany even before that, but that people still used them even if they said they didn't. i don't think this is new news by any means, but maybe something that has been revisited again & again. does peta have a legal leg to stand on in germany? i'm not sure they do, but seem to like to keep the pot stirred up 
pjp


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## Peter Cho

They are ORGANIZED. While the dog community was sleeping. This is how they got electronic leashes banned, even if it made no scientific sense!

If you think this will not happen in US or Canada, you are mistaken. 
I would pay extra membership fee to my respective national working dog club to protect the most humane way to train my dogs. 
I think most dog trainers would be glad to maintain such contingency funds. I assure you that PETA has a legal team. We should as well. JMO.

Used correctly, it IS THE most humane way to train a dog..........better than a flat collar, imo. 

take a look at 3) http://www.dogtrainerresource.com/articles-and-publications.html


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## Stefan Schaub

The use of a e collar is a felony in germany. everyone knows it and everyone knows what happen if you get caught. if it make sense or not does not matter, it is law.

some people like to play with fire and it hurts now!!for some less for others more. people can argue about it now for month but it does not change what is going to happen. if they can proof that they have use the ecollar they lose the membership,maybe some titles,maybe some dogs get all titles taken away. the sv have try to cover it up,first reaction was that they want investigate it intern.who cares if they do it intern,the sv does not stay over german law.so far i know in the last few days more than 25 people have get turned in for the use of the e collar. police is investigating,search warrens for houses,club houses are written and proceed. 

that is live.it hits every one.

maybe this people should think about it who have turned them in and believe me the best friends are not all time the best friends.


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## Thomas Barriano

This is scary shit. People turning their friends in. The police searching your house looking for a remote trainer. Don't think it can't happen here. Get on some of the positive only lists and listen to the comments on the evil SHOCK collar. You don't think they'd get in bed with PETA?


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## John Wolf

Thomas Barriano said:


> This is scary shit. People turning their friends in. The police searching your house looking for a remote trainer. Don't think it can't happen here. Get on some of the positive only lists and listen to the comments on the evil SHOCK collar. You don't think they'd get in bed with PETA?


Natural result of decades of unchecked liberal policies. One of the fellas in the video was Jogi Zank. He is a proponent of very low stim on the ecollar(atleast at the seminar I attended - Don't know how he personally trains). Did any of those dogs look like they were being fried? Next thing you know crating and kennelling will be felonies.


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## Stefan Schaub

John Wolf said:


> Natural result of decades of unchecked liberal policies. One of the fellas in the video was Jogi Zank. He is a proponent of very low stim on the ecollar(atleast at the seminar I attended - Don't know how he personally trains). Did any of those dogs look like they were being fried? Next thing you know crating and kennelling will be felonies.


do you think it is right that someone can not drink a beer with 18years but must go to war??? some people have make laws and that is what it is.do i like it?No!!!! and on the end it does not mater if it was Jogi or Sascha or Rainer or who ever and if he use it only on low level or not. they have know before that it can happen. i am more upset about the people who turn people in.year for year you help these guys and than they stab you in the back


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## John Wolf

I agree. Right or wrong it was the law. I think it serves as more of a warning to the US about how not to take these infringements into our life lightly.

I am surprised it took this long to come to surface. If it happened in the US there would be videos the day after the law passed sent to USCA. Haha


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## john simmons

So, if someone from the USA was bringing their dog to Germany, and was an ecollar user, could the collar be confiscated or does the law say it is illegal to use but ok to own. I have a few friends in Germany that say you can have them but not use them. Also they have said that hunters are allowed to use them(possible permit?). Maybe Stefan has some insight on this?


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## Haz Othman

Imagine the police kicking in your door, demanding where you have the E Collar stashed. If thats not facism I dont know what is.. Ed Frawely has it right when he calls PETA terrorists.


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## Stefan Schaub

john simmons said:


> So, if someone from the USA was bringing their dog to Germany, and was an ecollar user, could the collar be confiscated or does the law say it is illegal to use but ok to own. I have a few friends in Germany that say you can have them but not use them. Also they have said that hunters are allowed to use them(possible permit?). Maybe Stefan has some insight on this?


You can own a e collar,the trouble comes only than when you get turned in and than they find one in your possession. 1+1=2

would be good if they would find a e collar with rubber contacts,than they can not proof that you have used it to give stimulation, only vibration.

they take all what looks like photo,video or what ever documentation. on the end you must go to a lawyer,pay big money and hope they do not find anyone who wants play witness. 

no one can use it!!!


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## Christopher Smith

Because of the way laws work in the US the chances of this happening here from the government are very slim. If you want to understand how this works look at dog fighting and how that was outlawed. It had to be done on a state by state basis. 

I think that what is going to happen, if anything, is the following. The WUSV will make it against the rules for any of it's member clubs to allow it's members to use the ecollar. The SV is going to push for this because if they can't use them they won't want anyone else using them either.Then USCA will comply. USCA will then push the AWDF to outlaw the collar for all AWDF member clubs because their members will be put at a disadvantage. Then we will backstab and rat on each other. The new IPO subsport will be catch the guy that beat you using an ecollar so he can get disqualified and you can move up in the standings.


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## James Downey

Lets just say they did ban E-collars in America. 

There is another option.... It's scary. It can be diffcult, may require counceling. You could learn to train that turd you call high drive without one.


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## Kristi Molina

James Downey said:


> Lets just say they did ban E-collars in America.
> 
> There is another option.... It's scary. It can be diffcult, may require counceling. You could learn to train that turd you call high drive without one.


That's not the point. The government shouldn't be able to tell us how we can or cannot train our dogs. PETA Is out of control. And so uneducated. I'm sure whoever started it had good intentions, but it's gone to shit. 


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## Matt Vandart

James Downey said:


> Lets just say they did ban E-collars in America.
> 
> There is another option.... It's scary. It can be diffcult, may require counceling. You could learn to train that turd you call high drive without one.


Bwahahahahahahaha!

They are banned here also (WALES) you can own one but not use one. Don't matter anyway, because you can't correct your dog (effectively) here anyway. In fact you may as well just forget about training it and let it do what it wants. 
It's gone nuts, the people are policing the people on this, just like in that vid.
If you are seen in public correcting your dog in any other way than giving it a stern talking to about how it should behave, someone WILL phone the police.
There can be only one result.......


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## Bob Scott

James Downey said:


> Lets just say they did ban E-collars in America.
> 
> There is another option.... It's scary. It can be diffcult, may require counceling. You could learn to train that turd you call high drive without one.


 Won't the world come to an end? :twisted: :wink:
Being the devils advocate here. 
I look at it like having a Pitbull. The dog isn't the turd. That's what's stuck to the other end of the leash that creates the problems.
I'm *NOT* insulting E-collar trainers. I think e-collars can be an excellent tool. I've just never found the use/need for one. How was a dog trained before they existed?


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## John Wolf

I heard Helmut Raiser describe using the e-collar as similar to putting a house together with a nail gun. Yes, you can go through and manually hammer every nail, but it will be much quicker and cleaner with proper use of the nail gun. 

That's super you all don't "need" an ecollar, I don't either. I can just get better performance and clearer communication with my dog by using one, thereby reducing stress on both ends of the leash.


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## Katie Finlay

John Wolf said:


> I heard Helmut Raiser describe using the e-collar as similar to putting a house together with a nail gun. Yes, you can go through and manually hammer every nail, but it will be much quicker and cleaner with proper use of the nail gun.
> 
> That's super you all don't "need" an ecollar, I don't either. I can just get better performance and clearer communication with my dog by using one, thereby reducing stress on both ends of the leash.


Well said. How were dogs trained before e collars? From my understanding, a lot more compulsion than we use now.


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## Ashley Foster

PETA aren't really after E-Collars. I think the German Text at the end of the video when they're doing bitework translates as 'dogs shouldn't be biting machines' or something along those lines. 

PETA are well known not to be so concerned with animal 'Abuse' as they are animal 'USE' i.e. they don't believe people should eat meat, wear leather, furr or use animals for work, sport or entertainment. They're against anything from dairy farms to pigeon racing. They believe any form of animal domestication is bad, even companionship.

Forget the positive + trainers, e-collar bans and the erosion of basic behavioural science, the real target is first and foremost dog sport. The E-collar is just a means to appeal to the lowest emotional denominator to get publicity and public donations to fund their crazy animal jihad. 

I wish that last statement was hyperbolic, but sadly it really isn't.


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## Katie Finlay

Ashley Foster said:


> PETA aren't really after E-Collars. I think the German Text at the end of the video when they're doing bitework translates as 'dogs shouldn't be biting machines' or something along those lines.
> 
> PETA are well known not to be so concerned with animal 'Abuse' as they are animal 'USE' i.e. they don't believe people should eat meat, wear leather, furr or use animals for work, sport or entertainment. They're against anything from dairy farms to pigeon racing. They believe any form of animal domestication is bad, even companionship.
> 
> Forget the positive + trainers, e-collar bans and the erosion of basic behavioural science, the real target is first and foremost dog sport. The E-collar is just a means to appeal to the lowest emotional denominator to get publicity and public donations to fund their crazy animal jihad.
> 
> I wish that last statement was hyperbolic, but sadly it really isn't.


I agree 100%. There's a reason PETA euthanizes 95% of the animals that go into their "shelter," and it isn't because they can't find homes...


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## Christopher Smith

Katie Finlay said:


> Well said. How were dogs trained before e collars? From my understanding, a lot more compulsion than we use now.




I don't think that the compulsion has much to do with peoples problems with ecollars. I think in many cases it's a classic built-in excuse for their lack of success. "I know I only got 230 points and you got 290, but I'm better than you because I didn't use an ecollar." 

Then there are the people that saw it used badly or FUBAR-ed their own dog and are now scared of the ecollar. This type finds it impossible to separate the tool from the user. They can't accept that it was their sloppy, hamfisted use and lack of ability that was the real problem. 

Then there are those that the ecollar, and compulsion in general, are psychological triggers stemming from them being abused. I understand this and try to do what I can to minimize their discomfort but they need to look in the mirrior and figure out why they feel they have the right to foist their problems on the rest of us.


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## Bob Scott

Ashley Foster said:


> PETA aren't really after E-Collars. I think the German Text at the end of the video when they're doing bitework translates as 'dogs shouldn't be biting machines' or something along those lines.
> 
> PETA are well known not to be so concerned with animal 'Abuse' as they are animal 'USE' i.e. they don't believe people should eat meat, wear leather, furr or use animals for work, sport or entertainment. They're against anything from dairy farms to pigeon racing. They believe any form of animal domestication is bad, even companionship.
> 
> Forget the positive + trainers, e-collar bans and the erosion of basic behavioural science, the real target is first and foremost dog sport. The E-collar is just a means to appeal to the lowest emotional denominator to get publicity and public donations to fund their crazy animal jihad.
> 
> I wish that last statement was hyperbolic, but sadly it really isn't.



PETA's only concern is attention grabbing publicity to make money.


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## James Downey

John Wolf said:


> I heard Helmut Raiser describe using the e-collar as similar to putting a house together with a nail gun. Yes, you can go through and manually hammer every nail, but it will be much quicker and cleaner with proper use of the nail gun.
> 
> That's super you all don't "need" an ecollar, I don't either. I can just get better performance and clearer communication with my dog by using one, thereby reducing stress on both ends of the leash.


And that's fair enough. I can get with that. I do use an E-collar. Though at the moment very sparingly. I used it for one behavior on a dog that's 2.5. I have seen John's dog, I have seen John train, I have seen John trial. I would have to say....John's a competent, intelligent dog trainer. And John trains nothing like I do....and that's based on seeing his training for a very short amount of time. 

I will also say that I am not good at building a house with a Nail gun. My post was to be flamitory toward people who clutch the remote as if it's their security blanket. I have noticed somethings in myself I do not like when I use the E-collar regularly....I easily start form a dependency on it. I cover up poor training with it. To make it appear as if I have good training. I easily become addicted to it. That is, I start using for behaviors other than I originally intended. I train compulsively with it, and that's using the true definition of compulsion. And by doing this my other skills in training fade, because I am relying on the collar too much. And even being aware of this, I still fall into it. I know I have had a much more "better than thou" additude toward e-collars and other compulsive methods in the past. Looking back a lot of that was inexperience and immaturity as a trainer. Now from having been in a lot of clubs, seeing a lot of dogs, and seeing a lot of trainers. I know that a lot of times my training is not better. It's just better for me. It does not work better. It just works better for me. And knowing that, I have had some instances while coaching people that their views, and experiences in general make it almost impossible for me to teach them. And yet coaching others, I can get them on their way very quickly. Knowing this now, I have a lot more tolerance and respect for how others train their dogs....knowing that I may never be able replicate what they do. And also knowing they may never be able to employ what I do. I think just as much as we need to tailor training to the dog. The same goes for the trainer, the training has to be training they can execute. 

I was going to a club not to long ago and try to get on board with their method. I was miserable out there. And for me, this has to be satisfying in some form. The club clearly was having success with the dogs they were training. So the method was not the problem. I have a good dog, so the dog was not the problem. And also it's not because I am inept as a trainer, It's just the training was not in my scope of technique. and no matter the wish or want I am not going to be able to train my dog like they train theirs. 

For a long time I thought if I just could manage better I could do what others are doing and have the success they have. And if I am not having success replicating what they are doing I am so how inept. I drug that around a while in my head. But having gotten around a little now and seen a little more. I have found training that works extremely well for me. And all the while it had nothing to do with who was "right". But having this roll around in your head it can create a lot of misgivings: like, "that persons full of shit" or "they are just try to be smuggly superior" or "that person is not as smart as they think they are". It's a virus. .. I see this a lot on the forums. That because one trainer cannot replicate another's training they write it off as bullshit....then we start seeing people get into arguments that are never going to have a resolution. We start seeing people in a negative view. We start throwing accusations around on how the other person "Actually" trains. And the shit talking goes on and on....when all the while the reality is: all parties are simply training the way that is most successful for them.


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## Ben Thompson

I know that in Germany people do things different. Animal rights are more common in western Europe. 
McDonald's hamburgers are made from kangaroo meat in Germany. 

Another thing that is common in Germany if you call the wrong phone number you are expected to continue talking to the person for around 5 minutes. If its a old 90 year old widow you might have to talk to her for 20 minutes.


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## James Downey

Ben Thompson said:


> I know that in Germany people do things different. Animal rights are more common in western Europe.
> McDonald's hamburgers are made from kangaroo meat in Germany.
> 
> Another thing that is common in Germany if you call the wrong phone number you are expected to continue talking to the person for around 5 minutes. If its a old 90 year old widow you might have to talk to her for 20 minutes.


Now I know AR is strong in many parts of Europe, so that could be legit.. All the other stuff sounds like internet legends.

I mean really who would know if you just hung up.


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## Bob Scott

"I mean really who would know if you just hung up".

Not that's just cold hearted! :-D :wink:


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## Ben Thompson

*Hahahahahha!*

I don't know how they know?


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## James Downey

*Re: Hahahahahha!*



Ben Thompson said:


> I don't know how they know?


How do you know that your suppose to stay on the phone for 5?


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## Jim Engel

*Re: PETA video on ecollar use- Pussification let loose.*

deleted post


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## Angela Renee

I am a firm believer that PETA wants to push humans into extinction. 

They want to eliminate the working, show and companion dog. Along with all other domestic animals. They want to eliminate farming and hunting. Not to mention animal testing which would collapse the scientific community all together. Our medicine, surgeries, sterilization, etc. would never be able to advance. Our civilization would crumble. 

All of these "small" things (banning cropping/docking, ecollars, and chaining, reforming the farming and pet selling laws, BSL, etc.) it's all adding up to a bigger picture. They want animals to be absolutely free of humans. And that means wiping our species out. Call me crazy but I think that's exactly what they want. And they are always one step closer to acheiving their goal with every law they get passed.


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## James Downey

*Re: PETA video on ecollar use- Pussification let loose.*



Jim Engel said:


> _.... Response to political post deleted ....
> _
> And when it comes to a dog trainer being able to do a sport or an animal being able to live a life free from terror and abuse. I will take a chance. That does not make anyone a pussy. It makes them a decent human being. I am not sure where this idea of America being this rough around the edges country comes from. I would like to be able to think that this country that has reasonable laws that protect it citizens and it's animals. And would not turn it's eye because some people think a little control will turn into a lot. That still seems like a shitty reason not to try.
> 
> Your whole story is based on instilling fear in people that if they take the humanitarian road and try to help another soul on this planet, they will get screwed.
> 
> People, Prohibition proved, it's all gonna be alright.


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## Ben Thompson

*Re: PETA video on ecollar use- Pussification let loose.*

deleted political response


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## Ashley Foster

The pussification of the world doesn't sound too bad when taken literally... \\/


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## Christopher Smith

Ashley Foster said:


> The pussification of the world doesn't sound too bad when taken literally... \\/


HA!

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## Jim Engel

deleted political post


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## Jim Engel

*Breaking news.*

deleted (political post)


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## Connie Sutherland

Gun control? Remember how we are not a political board?

Please let's return to the subject named and abandon the gun control/Second Amendment side-topic so we can keep the thread open. 

Thanks!



We know how easy it is to segue into political topics ... and we all have opinions on them, too .... but this just isn't the place. 




eta
The reason this thread came to mod attention was a flurry of emails and PMs ... even if we had not made it a rule back in 2006 to avoid politics and religion here, we would still be hearing from the members who want to talk about dogs and not political topics. But that rule *was* made. It's one of very few restrictions here. 




Thanks!


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## Ben Thompson

Connie Sutherland said:


> Gun control? Remember how we are not a political board?
> 
> Please let's return to the subject named and abandon the gun control/Second Amendment side-topic so we can keep the thread open.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> We know how easy it is to segue into political topics ... and we all have opinions on them, too .... but this just isn't the place.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> eta
> The reason this thread came to mod attention was a flurry of emails and PMs ... even if we had not made it a rule back in 2006 to avoid politics and religion here, we would still be hearing from the members who want to talk about dogs and not political topics. But that rule *was* made. It's one of very few restrictions here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks!


PETA is a political activist organization.


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## Ashley Foster

Almost everything is political in some way I think the moderators could frame it better as 'dog politics = ok on a dog forum but party/ideological/anything non dog related politics = not ok'.


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## Steve Burger

To me the whole deal reeks. 

First you have stupid laws which are based in fear and ignorance. Second of all you have the ignorance of the e-collar opposition in regards to dog training. Third you have the SV's knee-jerk reaction to a nutjob organization posting video. Fourth you have the lack of the SV preparing any kind of defense against the stupid laws which are in effect. 

Years ago there should have been training and certification built into place in regards to the humane and effective use of e-collars. The SV should have been proactive, and taken the lead on this. This could have been an effective measure in the education of the general public. 

The e-collar, when used properly, is the most humane and effective dog training tool ever invented. 

It makes me sick that the SV has adopted a Gestapo-like response to this situation.


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## Connie Sutherland

Ashley, yes, I should have framed it that way .... once again.

It HAS been framed that way a few dozen times since 2006, and I should not have taken a shortcut this time.


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## Connie Sutherland

and back to the topic:




Steve Burger said:


> To me the whole deal reeks.
> 
> First you have stupid laws which are based in fear and ignorance. Second of all you have the ignorance of the e-collar opposition in regards to dog training. Third you have the SV's knee-jerk reaction to a nutjob organization posting video. Fourth you have the lack of the SV preparing any kind of defense against the stupid laws which are in effect.
> 
> Years ago there should have been training and certification built into place in regards to the humane and effective use of e-collars. The SV should have been proactive, and taken the lead on this. This could have been an effective measure in the education of the general public.
> 
> The e-collar, when used properly, is the most humane and effective dog training tool ever invented.
> 
> It makes me sick that the SV has adopted a Gestapo-like response to this situation.


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