# Puppy Costs



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

What do you feel is a fair market value for most working lines German Shepherd or Malinois puppies?


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## Mark Herzog (Aug 22, 2013)

Howard Gaines III said:


> What do you feel is a fair market value for most working lines German Shepherd or Malinois puppies?


 Great question. I'm really looking forward to reading the discussion on this topic. From my perspective (looking at it from a "sellers" point of view) I have always found that most buyers want to pay much less than I would think is fair. Having said that, the marketplace seems so "full" of product that it creates a "buyers market" and that drives down prices.

The question becomes how do you compare Dog A, Dog B, etc.? How do you "value" the different characteristics? Every dog is different, just as every breeding is different and the genetic backgrounds, working history of the parents, etc. are different. 

I look forward to hearing what others have to say on this topic.


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

Howard Gaines III said:


> What do you feel is a fair market value for most working lines German Shepherd or Malinois puppies?


Most working line puppies are no different than a pet puppy. So iwould say $500. For a good workingline puppy $1500 - $2500.


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

that is a lot of cash. I think a mal puppy should be worth 500-1000. A GSD is pointless if you can have a mal. lol


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

Daniel Lybbert said:


> that is a lot of cash. I think a mal puppy should be worth 500-1000. A GSD is pointless if you can have a mal. lol


Supply and demand. Either there is a huge supply or no demand. Or maybe both. Yes a gsd is pointless if you like mals. Just like a mal is pointless if you like a gsd.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

What pet puppies are $500?

T


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> What pet puppies are $500?
> 
> T


Seems to be a pretty common price here. And I think it is fair with health testing, even though most don't.


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## patricia powers (Nov 14, 2010)

when i see labradoodles, teddies & such going for 800 bucks......i just cringe!!! surely a good german shepherd should be worth more than that. pjp


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Mark Herzog said:


> Great question. I'm really looking forward to reading the discussion on this topic. From my perspective (looking at it from a "sellers" point of view) I have always found that most buyers want to pay much less than I would think is fair. Having said that, the marketplace seems so "full" of product that it creates a "buyers market" and that drives down prices.
> 
> The question becomes how do you compare Dog A, Dog B, etc.? How do you "value" the different characteristics? Every dog is different, just as every breeding is different and the genetic backgrounds, working history of the parents, etc. are different.
> 
> I look forward to hearing what others have to say on this topic.


 Mark nice points, wish pet folks who were interested in getting working lines animals did more background work before buying. Assume you may have three puppies from the same litter but one showcases much stronger drives than the littermates. This makes the value more for that puppy...


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

800 Euros/ 1000 USD, is what I find fair price for a puppy.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

In my area, Malinois ads are almost never published. Pet prices seem to be all over the place: $250, $500, and $700. When you ask the "pet breeders" about their litter many haven't a clue and are just letting Fluffy bring home the bacon. 

Sad to say these same "quality" bred animals can't do K-9 personal protection work, ones I've tested are real nerve bags, and drives are none to be found. This says nothing about the structure faults in those breedings!

The false belief that just because it's a GSD and will protect can't hold water. I've walked many dogs behind the handler with little more than strong verbals...for twice the money, about $1500, these folks could have purchased a good working lines animal that stood a better chance of doing what they bought it for, home and personal protection.

Yes costs are based on the supply and demand of that breed, but good breeders put lots of time and money into the lines they are developing. Stong Bouviers, Mals, GSDs and other breeds can't be placed in many pet homes because the owners haven't a clue on how to raise them.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Tiago Fontes said:


> 800 Euros/ 1000 USD, is what I find fair price for a puppy.


 
I paid 700 Euros for our GSD pups in 2004 and 2005.

They are about the cheapest out in the working dog world and otherwise.


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## Mark Herzog (Aug 22, 2013)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Mark nice points, wish pet folks who were interested in getting working lines animals did more background work before buying. Assume you may have three puppies from the same litter but one showcases much stronger drives than the littermates. This makes the value more for that puppy...


 Howard... not just "pet folks" in my opinion 

What I find interesting is that most "buyers" don't give any consideration to what it actually costs to breed and prepare a litter of quality GSD's. In fact when I see people stating that $500 is a "fair" price for a pup it makes me stop and wonder: can you even raise "a crappy litter" and pay all your real costs for that kind of money? I doubt it.

Does it not seem logical that breeding a "high quality" working line litter will take more effort and more expense... and therefore should be of more value? Unfortunately I find that most buyers (whether they are looking to purchase a "pet" or a "working dog" for home protection or whatever, they don't consider any of these things. They see ads in the paper selling what are claimed to be "great dogs", "from show lines", "registered", etc. and the average purchaser doesn't know or understand any of the differences, let alone what makes a good working dog, so price becomes their deciding factor. 

They simply ask themselves "why would I spend $1,500 to $2,500 (or more) for what is claimed to be a quality working dog, when other sellers are advertising great sounding dogs for $500 to $1,000?"

The other thing I can't quite understand is why people don't sit and think about something that to me should be quite obvious: When you do buy a "quality dog" from a seller who breeds and trains real quality working dogs (both as pups and as finished dogs) that vender when selling pups is selling you the rejects. I know that sounds harsh but it's true. The best dog or dogs from that litter are going to be kept and trained and sold as finished dogs (or at least as older green dogs), not as pups. This makes economic sense as it generates the best returns/profits. There is simply no money in selling pups, especially if you are selling them at $500 or $1,000.

Those of you who breed and sell pups as well as keep and train and sell finished working dogs... can you honestly say that you don't take the cream of the litter for yourselves and sell off the ones that you have graded, tested and rejected from your own programs?

Having said that, if you were to sell a pup that you tested and graded as being up to the standards of your own program... a pup that you really like and really want to keep and work with and train because you know that the genetics are there and the breeding yielded exactly what you were looking for... would you sell that pup for the same price as you ask for your "rejects"? Or, would you in fact only agree to sell that pup on several conditions, including a commitment that the dog be trained and put into an actual working environment and that the price for the pup would be considerably higher than what the price of your "rejects" would be?

So... on the exact same note... if you are a buyer, considering what I've just said above, do you actually expect that same vendor to sell you his/her "best" pup for the same price that they are selling all of their "rejects"? If you agree that the "best pup" is worth more than all those "rejects" then ask yourself what is the value of that "best pup"? Is it worth 50% more? Is it worth 100% more? Is it worth 500% more?

To me those "best pups" are priceless and simply not for sale as puppies. Not because I wouldn't sell them (I would), but because I don't believe I can find buyers who will value them as I do.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

For my two GSDs I paid $1000 in 2004 and $900 in 2007. Both working line.
For the 1000 dollars I got the very best dog I've ever owned.
For the 900 I got a fun, very active dog to play with.


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## kristin tresidder (Oct 23, 2008)

i've been in dogs for a long time, and never paid, or charged, more than $500 for a young pup. all you're buying, or selling, with a puppy is potential. nothing more, nothing less. a dog that's older, and had work put into it, or has proven itself is a different story.


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## Mark Herzog (Aug 22, 2013)

kristin tresidder said:


> i've been in dogs for a long time, and never paid, or charged, more than $500 for a young pup. *all you're buying, or selling, with a puppy is potential*. nothing more, nothing less. a dog that's older, and had work put into it, or has proven itself is a different story.


I have to disagree... my issue is with your use of the word "all". I think you're right that when buying a puppy you are purchasing "potential" but you are also purchasing the genetics and the thought and care that went into the pairing of the adults.

In fact you are purchasing not just the genetics of the parents but the genetics (good or bad) of every dog that came before them.

Do you not believe that a pup from great parents is worth more than a pup from terrible parents? Or do you truly believe that it makes no difference and that all $500 (or less) pups have the same potential and therefore it doesn't matter?


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> What pet puppies are $500?
> 
> T


Lots of them. I knew one guy who paid $2,000 for a teacup Chi-wa-wa (which I can't seem to remember how to correctly spell at this point). Most smaller breeds now are selling for $500-800 (and up)

Most of the DK-bred pups (German Shorthairs) are selling for $1,500-$2,000. One price if you want limited registration and a second higher price if you want full registration.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Then there are the frickin "designer breeds" $1500 dollar mutts!


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## David Winners (Apr 4, 2012)

kristin tresidder said:


> i've been in dogs for a long time, and never paid, or charged, more than $500 for a young pup. all you're buying, or selling, with a puppy is potential. nothing more, nothing less. a dog that's older, and had work put into it, or has proven itself is a different story.


I think you are also buying the genetic testing, OFA, proper facilities for whelping and socializing and the time it takes to interact with the litter versus leaving it in a box somewhere until it's 8 weeks old.


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## David Baker (Aug 31, 2013)

Depends on where you buy it from and who the parents are. On average we see good pups from $1200-$1600. If u pay much more than that, you are over paying. Of course you have some breeders/kennels that will charge astronomical accounts bc they claim their pups are worth it due to some really environmental exposure training they do in the welping process but really, it isn't worth the extra money they charge. If u get a good pup in the 1000-1500 range, you're right on the market value.


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

It all comes down to what you believe, and purpose. If all you look for is 4 legs, a tail, and no belly button hernia. And your goal is to train, certify, and sell. Why would you pay $1200 instead of $500, especially if you think you can train thru any short comings.

If you believe genetics matter you might think about some other things. A stud price is pretty consistant, and they can produce 1000s of puppies. Should not change the price of a dog too much. Why wouldn't you want the best stud available? Females on the other hand might produce 70 puppies in their life if your lucky. So more than likely you will pay more for a puppy from a good female because the supply is smaller.

If you believe puppys are a roll of the dice. Your chances are just as good with a dog from a shelter.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Then there are the frickin "designer breeds" $1500 dollar mutts!


Our Fila Brasileiro was one of those "designer breeds". Even the Briard was more expensive than the GSDS that we bought a few years' later!

I think German, Belgian and Dutch Shepherds are the cheapest.

We also have a guide line for the last mentioned.

The prices do not vary (I can only speak for GSDs) so much between genetically super proven dogs and others.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

To me, part of the $1200 I paid for my Dutch Shepherd was for the reputation of the breeder and his guarantee to stand behind the dogs he breeds. Sure, I could have got a DS from some local guy who sells puppies on kijiji for $300, but I figured my chances of getting a healthy, stable dog suitable for my needs were better with the first breeder.

I endured the heartache of a dog so severely dysplastic he didn't make it to his tenth birthday - his heart was strong, but his body was a mess. I'll pay a lot to hedge my bets against that happening again.


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## kristin tresidder (Oct 23, 2008)

Mark Herzog said:


> I have to disagree... my issue is with your use of the word "all". I think you're right that when buying a puppy you are purchasing "potential" but you are also purchasing the genetics and the thought and care that went into the pairing of the adults.
> 
> In fact you are purchasing not just the genetics of the parents but the genetics (good or bad) of every dog that came before them.
> 
> Do you not believe that a pup from great parents is worth more than a pup from terrible parents? Or do you truly believe that it makes no difference and that all $500 (or less) pups have the same potential and therefore it doesn't matter?


i believe that an untested, unproven pup from good/great parents is worth about $500. i don't believe that pups from terrible parents are worth anything at all, which is why i would not pay any money for one. i'm pretty discerning in who i buy dogs from. 




David Winners said:


> I think you are also buying the genetic testing, OFA, proper facilities for whelping and socializing and the time it takes to interact with the litter versus leaving it in a box somewhere until it's 8 weeks old.



but again, all genetic testing and OFA gets you are higher odds (greater potential) that your pup won't have almost all of the diseases tested for. there are certain exceptions of course, like simple recessives that work on your basic punnet square - but most genetic diseases are more complicated than that. two OFA excellent parents can produce displastic pups. as far as i'm concerned, competent care of a litter doesn't earn a breeder more money - that should be a basic expectation.

i also believe that good breeders should be more interested in placing their pups in the right home, than in making money. having bred in the past, i have given pups to homes that i knew would work them & care for them to the standards i hold. it only helps my reputation as a breeder when people title my dogs - why should i make it such a financial hardship for them? not everyone can afford $2k for a pup, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't do phenomenal things with a dog.


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Im curious where you can get a hold of GSDs or Mal pups from good parents for less then 1200 much less $500???


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Our Fila Brasileiro was one of those "designer breeds". Even the Briard was more expensive than the GSDS that we bought a few years' later!
> 
> I think German, Belgian and Dutch Shepherds are the cheapest.
> 
> ...



Here in the States the designer breeds are cross bred dogs. The Poodle and the Golden Retriever are the big fad now. "Golden Doodles as they are called. Also Puggles (Beagle x Pugs) Schnoodles (Schnauser x Poodle) and on and on. The second largest Kennel club in the States, the United Kennel Club has actually started recognizing a few of these.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

For $85+/- you can go to the SPCA for a designer dog. Saves a boatload of money and keeps one from death's door!

I had a woman who e-mailed me the other day wanting me to provide her with a GSD stud so they could have "one litter" with their very timid family pet. Why would I want my hand in that, producing offspring that may be "timid" and generate $500 puppies which might see the SPCA when they don't sell? :-k

Producing protection or top sport dogs is a crap shoot IMO. Yes good or great genetics help get you there; but there's something to be said about good home environments and training of the critter. Higher fees should reflect more work the breeder/kennel has done to produce offspring which are able to meet the need of the buyer.

My last puppy came from The Netherlands. I feel the breeder/kennel did an excellent job of getting the ball started with that female. The fee with shipping would have been close to what I could have paid here in the States. I bought the genetics and knowledge of the breeder when I got this puppy. The kennel...Gardefense German Shepherds! \\/​


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## Catherine Gervin (Mar 12, 2012)

Bob Scott said:


> Here in the States the designer breeds are cross bred dogs. The Poodle and the Golden Retriever are the big fad now. "Golden Doodles as they are called. Also Puggles (Beagle x Pugs) Schnoodles (Schnauser x Poodle) and on and on. The second largest Kennel club in the States, the United Kennel Club has actually started recognizing a few of these.


i am caught between abject horror and snidely hissing "how typical" when i see someone strolling along with their VERY EXPENSIVE mongreldoodle. allll those dogs in shelters who need a good home--even just talking about the ones who don't shed, the main selling point of the doodles--and the dogs in breed rescue foster homes, perfectly good dogs and puppies ready for pet homes but those aren't flashy enough? aren't supersilious enough? aren't trendy or customized sufficiently for the power couple in Lexington/Greenwich/insert-other-well-to-do-n'-uppity-town? not to mention that specific breeds were pursued/crafted for whatever purpose since way back when but now we're going to toss in a genetic monkey wrench deliberately and claim they're some neat new breed, but this shiny new packaging doesn't apply to the Shepherd-Huskys or PitBull-Whatevers and they're on their own and often on the slab. none of these "breeders" are crossing dogs to reinvigorate bloodlines or avoid genetic deficiencies or doing anything beneficial for dogs at all, actually, and it can only be to pad the wallet or lunacy. 
and then people are flocking to fork over well over a grand for these crossbred things--i passed a couple walking a muddy Labradoodle and aguing about how a 1500$ dog could get so dirty! they must have expected him to come with Scotchguard.
otherwise i've read that a breeder seeking to properly breed and raise a litter for sale should not expect to do much beyond breaking even. the costs of championing a dog before it is worthy to reproduce, the cost of healthcare for both dam and pups, the cost of feeding, the stud fee, the advertising, the time spent cleaning, tending and socializing the pups, and the inherent risks of losing dam/pups/both to the process...there are a lot of costs to doing it the right way. 
ultimately: whatever you are willing to pay is what it costs, whether you are seeking a raspy gargoyle of a Puggle or a sharp, crazy workingline Shepherd, or shelling out the adoption fee for someone's Bull Mastiff that got abandoned for growing as big as his ribbon-winning parents did.


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## Jennifer Andress (Sep 4, 2013)

Howard Gaines III said:


> For $85+/- you can go to the SPCA for a designer dog. Saves a boatload of money and keeps one from death's door!​


​

No, you really can't.

I don't particularly want to defend either the buyers or the sellers of these dogs -- I don't much care for them myself -- but I see this notion put forward all the time and it just isn't accurate.

Non- and low-shed dogs are _extremely_ hard to find in the shelter/rescue system around here, particularly if they're young and/or have friendly personalities. Our local city shelter has a few puppy mill castoffs that stick around because they're seniors, have medical problems, are bitey, and/or have temperament problems like being incredibly neurotic or virtually impossible to housetrain. But even the ones with nasty temperaments get adopted within a couple of months (unless they're with a rescue that doesn't really want to place them), and the nice ones get snapped up within nanoseconds.

Whenever I've had one of those dogs as a foster, I've gotten dozens of inquiries from homes all across the East Coast and up to Canada. The demand is tremendous and the supply in the rescue world does not begin to meet it, which is why people are willing to pay $2-5K for a Labradoodle puppy that doesn't come from a glaringly obvious puppy mill.

Anyway, that has nothing to do with the actual discussion, I just wanted to mention it because it's a really common misconception that you can just find these "designer dogs" in shelters. The pet homes that want these dogs almost always try to adopt first (at least in East Coast yuppie-dom, there's generally much more social cachet to adopting your pet than buying it), and end up buying when they can't find the dogs they want in shelters.


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Jennifer Andress said:


> [/LEFT]
> 
> 
> No, you really can't.
> ...


Gotta agree with this most shelter dogs around these parts look like they fell out of the ugly tree several times or have serious medical / temperment issues. No free doodles in these parts. 
Still waiting to hear were you buy $500 pups from top quality parents. At that rate I would buy 3 and keep the best of the bunch at about the 7 month point.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

We charge $1500 for our working quality puppies, the ones who dont meet the standard are given away for free. We offer a 2 year health AND WORKING guarantee, even with our baby puppies. The parents are health tested and are also temperament tested. We are very picky about health, temperament, working quality, and bloodlines. Our puppies get a lot of imprinting and foundation work while they are here. All of our puppies are now used as training models for our K-9 trainers course before they go to their new working homes which means they get several hours with many new people and they get some very good foundation training before they go. We work full time at the kennel, it is not a part time gig for us, so each litter gets a lot of attention and work every day, often several times per day. On average a dog of the high quality that we require for breeding costs us about $8000-$10,000 each. We also offer a big discount for everyone who buys a puppy from us and attends our classes, so that our clients can come here for our K-9 trainers course and learn about puppy imprinting in detection, tracking, obedience, and bitework for five days with their new puppy, as well as with an adult dog they may have or they can handle one of our adult dogs for the week for $500. So for $2000 they can leave here with a working quality puppy who has a great foundation and a working / health guarantee, as well as the knowledge and skill to ensure they can correctly handle and train the puppy they just got in many different areas.
So while I realize our puppies are not cheap, I do believe they are faily priced considering the guarantee that goes with them, and the effort that is made to ensure they will have the health, temperament, and working drives to perform well with a good trainer.


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## Kevin Cyr (Dec 28, 2012)

mike suttle said:


> We charge $1500 for our working quality puppies, the ones who dont meet the standard are given away for free. We offer a 2 year health AND WORKING guarantee, even with our baby puppies. The parents are health tested and are also temperament tested. We are very picky about health, temperament, working quality, and bloodlines. Our puppies get a lot of imprinting and foundation work while they are here. All of our puppies are now used as training models for our K-9 trainers course before they go to their new working homes which means they get several hours with many new people and they get some very good foundation training before they go. We work full time at the kennel, it is not a part time gig for us, so each litter gets a lot of attention and work every day, often several times per day. On average a dog of the high quality that we require for breeding costs us about $8000-$10,000 each. We also offer a big discount for everyone who buys a puppy from us and attends our classes, so that our clients can come here for our K-9 trainers course and learn about puppy imprinting in detection, tracking, obedience, and bitework for five days with their new puppy, as well as with an adult dog they may have or they can handle one of our adult dogs for the week for $500. So for $2000 they can leave here with a working quality puppy who has a great foundation and a working / health guarantee, as well as the knowledge and skill to ensure they can correctly handle and train the puppy they just got in many different areas.
> So while I realize our puppies are not cheap, I do believe they are faily priced considering the guarantee that goes with them, and the effort that is made to ensure they will have the health, temperament, and working drives to perform well with a good trainer.


 
I guess with a week of training you can't beat that deal, let alone your guarantee.


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## David Winners (Apr 4, 2012)

mike suttle said:


> We charge $1500 for our working quality puppies, the ones who dont meet the standard are given away for free. We offer a 2 year health AND WORKING guarantee, even with our baby puppies. The parents are health tested and are also temperament tested. We are very picky about health, temperament, working quality, and bloodlines. Our puppies get a lot of imprinting and foundation work while they are here. All of our puppies are now used as training models for our K-9 trainers course before they go to their new working homes which means they get several hours with many new people and they get some very good foundation training before they go. We work full time at the kennel, it is not a part time gig for us, so each litter gets a lot of attention and work every day, often several times per day. On average a dog of the high quality that we require for breeding costs us about $8000-$10,000 each. We also offer a big discount for everyone who buys a puppy from us and attends our classes, so that our clients can come here for our K-9 trainers course and learn about puppy imprinting in detection, tracking, obedience, and bitework for five days with their new puppy, as well as with an adult dog they may have or they can handle one of our adult dogs for the week for $500. So for $2000 they can leave here with a working quality puppy who has a great foundation and a working / health guarantee, as well as the knowledge and skill to ensure they can correctly handle and train the puppy they just got in many different areas.
> So while I realize our puppies are not cheap, I do believe they are faily priced considering the guarantee that goes with them, and the effort that is made to ensure they will have the health, temperament, and working drives to perform well with a good trainer.


How long is the typical waiting list to get one of your dogs?

David Winners


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I'm probably closer to Kristin on this topic. Too much beyond $1000 and I think the puppies are getting over priced. I've heard complaints about lack of working homes and I can't help but think--very few can afford them. Training and trialing can be a pretty expensive endeavor. Huge, for me is how the puppies are guaranteed and the health history and testing behind the dogs. I've been on both sides of the fence. My last litter I guaranteed for health to age 6--any congenital abnormality and I'll replace it. I generally don't take deposits. Once I agree to sell you one, that's all I need. If you decide to go elsewhere later, fine. You've saved both us a lot of grief. I start testing my litters at one week. By the time the buyer gets it I've tested just about everything environmental I can think of relevant to what the dog will be in life. They are in the house with me and that gives me the ability to observe them constantly and know them inside out. So far if I say it will work, it will. I have very high standards for that designation. When it leaves here, its leash broke, crate trained and has lots of exposure. I don't condition them environmentally. I test them. They've had all sorts of handling since birth which includes grooming [nails done, baths, etc.]. I CERF them before they leave and my vet goes over them--especially for hearts. As for this reject business. I'm not buying or placing a reject. What you should get in both instances is a puppy that will meet your needs regardless of what the breeder's pick of the litter is. 

The most attractive breeder for me is one who actually has a history of breeding a successive line and working the dogs--not breeding x dog to x dog based on the latest winner or flava of the month. It also needs to be someone who works/trials a dog for certain venues. The PPD stuff doesn't count for me--just the way I feel about it. I see ads saying pups will be able to do all working categories [herding, SAR, IPO, LE/ME, etc.] and the breeder doesn't do any of those things. There is a tendency to buy a bunch of dogs out of fancy pedigrees and set up breeding shop. The value for me in a breeder is someone who knows how their dogs develop and can give me feed back on what they've seen in the whelping box and pedigree history that can be helpful in me making MY selection decision. I've ran into this idea of $400--$500 non-refundable deposits before the litter is 2 weeks old. No need to go any further. I'm done there.

I don't really consider fair market value. A seller sets his price for his product. The buyer will either pay it or he won't.

T


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> .... Too much beyond $1000 and I think the puppies are getting over priced.
> 
> ...... A seller sets his price for his product. The buyer will either pay it or he won't.
> 
> T


I think you have answered your own question. What you feel is overpriced really doesn't matter. I don't think Mike has any problems placing his dogs and I know the breeder of my last puppy didn't. In fact she had a waiting list.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

David Winners said:


> How long is the typical waiting list to get one of your dogs?
> 
> David Winners


That depends on what people are looking for. I typically have a lot names on a waiting list for puppies, but I usually dont take deposits until the litters are born. Once a litter is born all of the pups are usually sold as soon as I make an announcement to the folks on the waiting list. SOme of the people are very picky about color, size, etc and they may have to wait a little while. 
Everyone is always looking for a huge dark brindle male with a giant head and a lot of aggression (in a 8 week old puppy, LOL) so they may have to wait for me to have three Malinois litters before my next Brindle puppy is born, and then he may not be the right color, size, etc. 
If the client is only worried about the things that matter (nerves, drive, temperament, etc) and doesnt care about color then it doesnt take as long.


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## David Winners (Apr 4, 2012)

mike suttle said:


> That depends on what people are looking for. I typically have a lot names on a waiting list for puppies, but I usually dont take deposits until the litters are born. Once a litter is born all of the pups are usually sold as soon as I make an announcement to the folks on the waiting list. SOme of the people are very picky about color, size, etc and they may have to wait a little while.
> Everyone is always looking for a huge dark brindle male with a giant head and a lot of aggression (in a 8 week old puppy, LOL) so they may have to wait for me to have three Malinois litters before my next Brindle puppy is born, and then he may not be the right color, size, etc.
> If the client is only worried about the things that matter (nerves, drive, temperament, etc) and doesnt care about color then it doesnt take as long.


Thanks Mike

David Winners


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Puppyprice is €400 at 7/8 wks, microchipped, chip registred, 1st shot, pet passport. I add a boarding fee €25/wk & expenses for extra vet cost if puppy has to stay longer and/or shipped. Shipping is paid of course by the buyer. That about covers my expensives and the tax i have to pay about my sales and a little extra.

We do this as a (pretty big) hobby, we both work ft. The last few years we had about 3 /4 litters w/ 8 pups average a year. The profit i made were turned in dog food. Last year we had a lot of bad luck and little litters, it has cost me big time.

For the waiting list we probably turning to Mike's method, we did paying a deposit at reservation, but paying back deposits when litter has gone wrong and other topics i had lately has turning me to mike's method.

Probably the next few years we will have less litter, cause we don't want that many dogs (try to stay <8, instead of 16/17)


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> What do you feel is a fair market value for most working lines German Shepherd or Malinois puppies?


£500 tops


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Sarah Platts said:


> I think you have answered your own question. What you feel is overpriced really doesn't matter. I don't think Mike has any problems placing his dogs and I know the breeder of my last puppy didn't. In fact she had a waiting list.


Notice I said too much over and I don't have a question. I set my price for mine for what I want and I don't care what others or the market is doing. You can either pay it or not. If I inquire about a litter and think its too pricey then it is what it is. I bear no personal grudge against the breeder. Personally, if I can get it at 7 weeks, I can do my own training and imprinting. But for some that's worth the added price. My response wasn't regarding Mike's post. Sounds like he puts in the time in raising and developing the litter; has the pedigree knowledge, health testing history and the working training background, which for me, makes him in the more attractive breeder camp and ideal. I work with breeders as a trainer that get $1500-$2000 easy for their pets. That's why I say FMV doesn't matter. Its what you as an individual can get for the dog. 

T


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## Jim Delbridge (Jan 27, 2010)

Prices for dogs are basically "what the market will bear." My working dogs with no titles in their lines but generations of hunting all cost me about $350 apiece. The dog I washed with great pedigree on both sides cost me $1000. I could afford it and wanted to see if there was anything to "perceived lineage." True, only one example, but it's no different than horse buying, it's what the buyer thinks they are getting that is important. 
Of many breeds, an honorable breeder is having to shell out a lot of bucks up front to reduce the chance of passing on genetic defects. That breeding continues despite the genetic defects OR as with the American GSD, the bred in defects, suggests there are as many unscrupulous breeders as honorable. No real big surprise there.
For the brand new handler that decides they want an off-the-shelf working dog, the best choice is to go to those kennels that spoon-feed them how to train a dog and how to deal with *chuckle* "what they got that they probably didn't really wish for."
Seeing both sides where I've watched breeders of various "designer breeds" both novelty mixes and purebreds, I've seen puppies sold many times for $1500 where my wife had to clamp my mouth shut because both dam and sire should have been spayed and neutered due to their healthy defects. These same breeders have fools coming back for more puppies over the years and just accept the high medical costs as part of "enjoying that breed."
I'm told that I'm unusual that I really don't have breed bias or breed religions. I've worked mals, GSDs, dutchies, et al as well as my Airedales. I've trained many dog teams with lots of breeds. I've yet to see one breed that I'd consider the end-all-beat-all breed for scent work. In lots of breeds I see specific dogs that usually lucked into being the right dog in the right job OR by their drives guided their handler in a direction of work.
I've ticked off multitudes of breeders with my comment of "I don't care if the dog is butt ugly to its standard as long as it's healthy, has a good nose, and has the right drives." I was teasing my wife that a working established mix I was looking at threw many puppies that could be examples of alien species on a Star Trek like show. (the wife is a trekkie) 

I routinely see ads for the novelty mixes for $1500 because people decide that mix is just a "must have". As poodles were originally working dogs before they became the "must have" of aristocracy and wannabe's, there is always a chance that something like a goldendoodle will throw out a decent working dog. Is it worth looking at litters to find that one-in-a-hundred? probably not.

And to be fair, I've seen a lot A LOT of sucky GSDs, Mals, Dutches, Labs etc., probably more so than other breeds as they tend to be the go-to choice for novice handlers including LE. Saddest thing I can observe is a K9 dog handler show me their new narc dog in action that their department paid a god-awful amount for and the dog sucks. They paid big bucks for it though, so it'll come into its own any day now. The kennel says so....

No matter what, it's always Caveat Emptor and each person has to decide if it's worth ponying up what the breeder is asking to get either a puppy-with-promise or a ready-trained dog.
How people choose puppies or working dogs is a whole other discussion worthy of multiple soap operas.


Jim Delbridge


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## Amy Swaby (Jul 16, 2008)

Sarah Platts said:


> Lots of them. I knew one guy who paid $2,000 for a teacup Chi-wa-wa (which I can't seem to remember how to correctly spell at this point). Most smaller breeds now are selling for $500-800 (and up)
> 
> Most of the DK-bred pups (German Shorthairs) are selling for $1,500-$2,000. One price if you want limited registration and a second higher price if you want full registration.


Exactly has no one looked at their local craigslist recently? Hell I looked last night and people had a cat with a $1,000 rehoming fee. About 20 litters for "adoption" for 600 and those are just pitbulls


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