# k9 kravings



## Rashae Lamar (Feb 19, 2011)

Ok I would like your guys advice on dog food, right now my dogs are eating taste of the wild but im thinking of changing them to a raw diet. I was recommended k9 kravings are their any other choices or would you guys stay with totw


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Rashae, I'll move this to the diet and Health forum.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Rashae Lamar said:


> Ok I would like your guys advice on dog food, right now my dogs are eating taste of the wild but im thinking of changing them to a raw diet. I was recommended k9 kravings are their any other choices or would you guys stay with totw



Also, Rashae, questions like this will inspire more response when you include a link to the ingredient list of the product in question.

I find this http://www.k-9kraving.com/ but I don't see any ingredients lists at first glance. Do you have that?


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## Melissa Thom (Jun 21, 2011)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Also, Rashae, questions like this will inspire more response when you include a link to the ingredient list of the product in question.
> 
> I find this http://www.k-9kraving.com/ but I don't see any ingredients lists at first glance. Do you have that?


Here ya go Connie (warning it's a PDF)

http://www.k-9kraving.com/Media/K-9_Kraving_Brochure2011.pdf


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Melissa Thom said:


> Here ya go Connie (warning it's a PDF)
> 
> http://www.k-9kraving.com/Media/K-9_Kraving_Brochure2011.pdf


Thanks!

It looks OK, at a glance. 

It's made in a USDA-certified facility and formulated to meet AAFCO nutrient profiles for "All Life Stages."

I think Steve's (a "frozen complete" similar to this one) has a comparison chart on their site of the various foods in that category.


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## hillel schwartzman (Nov 9, 2008)

I have been feeding my dog Rex K9 Kravings from day one.
2 time national psa national champ all at 3yrs. old...
Great product !!!!!


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## Molly Graf (Jul 20, 2006)

I recommend staying with Taste of the Wild. It's an excellent quality no-grain food with proper protein and fat content and good ingredient list, plenty of different formulas available, and very decent price. You will deal with storage issues, handling (really disgusting), feeding and paying for (much more $$$$) the processed raw diet - stick with the good-quality kibble IMO.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Molly Graf said:


> I recommend staying with Taste of the Wild. It's an excellent quality no-grain food with proper protein and fat content and good ingredient list, plenty of different formulas available, and very decent price. You will deal with storage issues, handling (really disgusting), feeding and paying for (much more $$$$) the processed raw diet - stick with the good-quality kibble IMO.


Totw for a grain free kibble has the lowest calorie per cup of all the grain free kibbles. So, I am not sure it's excellent...and you get what you pay for. Orijen, canidae grain free kibbles are almost a 150 calories per cup more than Totw...So for the same amount of food your getting almost 50% more energy. 

So when they tell you Totw is 34% protien, 34% of the 350 calories are protiens. Whan another kibble that has 500 calories per cup tells you it has 30% protien...the 500 calorie kibble has more protien in it.

And what's the other "Mass" in TotW? It's not digestable energy. I mean it's the same amount of mass...1 cup. So thier calorieless mass in the cup....What is the mass?


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

since ingredients nutritional breakdown isn't posted on raw food such as drumsticks, does anyone know how many proteins and calories are in a drumstick, thigh, boneless skinless breast, pig ear, beef rib bone, beef neck bone etc ??
- i do know there isn't much "filler" in em, so i don't have to worry about things like peanut shells in some of the SD kibble 

i know a drumstick is not "balanced", like a good kibble is, but always been curious about protein equivalents etc


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

rick smith said:


> since ingredients nutritional breakdown isn't posted on raw food such as drumsticks, does anyone know how many proteins and calories are in a drumstick, thigh, boneless skinless breast, pig ear, beef rib bone, beef neck bone etc ??
> - i do know there isn't much "filler" in em, so i don't have to worry about things like peanut shells in some of the SD kibble
> 
> i know a drumstick is not "balanced", like a good kibble is, but always been curious about protein equivalents etc


No, a drumstick isn't -- you're right. But a whole bird or rodent, etc., with innards intact, is pretty much what canids evolved to eat. 

There are many sites, books, and programs that given nutritional data.

http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/

Type _nutritional analysis_ at Google to find many more.

"Proteins and calories," BTW, are only two bits of info, unless you mean just to compare one component, out of curiosity. (Calcium is one of the other critical factors, but of course there's a whole list of micronutrients.)

None of the nutritional analysis tables and charts are very useful for analyzing an actual diet if the user doesn't know what the requirements are for the animal in question. There is software, of course, but it's not free, online. 

I've had access to a very spendy program on a very limited basis, and I wish I could own it, but the times when I've broken down, say, a "sample raw diet," it has been with a couple of big books on one side and the keyboard on the other. It's a PITA.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

James Downey said:


> Totw for a grain free kibble has the lowest calorie per cup of all the grain free kibbles. So, I am not sure it's excellent...and you get what you pay for. Orijen, canidae grain free kibbles are almost a 150 calories per cup more than Totw...So for the same amount of food your getting almost 50% more energy.


_
"Totw for a grain free kibble has the lowest calorie per cup of all the grain free kibbles. So, I am not sure it's excellent...and you get what you pay for."_

I didn't look at or try to analyze their I.L., but are you factoring in that the only macronutrient with more calories than the others is fat? 

But I do remember that Orijen is higher in protein than TOTW.


ETA: About hidden mass, to arrive at the carb content of a food if you have protein, fats, fiber, and moisture: http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/choosing-dog-food/dog-food-carbohydrate-content/


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> _"Totw for a grain free kibble has the lowest calorie per cup of all the grain free kibbles. So, I am not sure it's excellent...and you get what you pay for."_
> 
> I didn't look at or try to analyze their I.L., but are you factoring in that the only macronutrient with more calories than the others is fat?
> 
> ...


 
Does not matter...You should read the studies on high fat diets for dogs. It seems A high fat diet for a dog is beneficial to thier abilities. Not determental than ours. There bodies has a different metabolic strategy than a human. Lance Mackey won the iditarod 8 hours before the next closest competetior. One of the largest margins in the history of the race.It was latter found out, that his super high fat diet for his dogs was studied and proved that it may have been the secret to his success.

And that the only caloric nutrient that does not seem to make a difference in dogs is Carbs. Carb loading does not work in dogs like it does humans. But fat loading does.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

James Downey said:


> ... Does not matter .... studies on high fat diets for dogs .... There bodies has a different metabolic strategy than a human.



This isn't what I'm saying at all.  (You'll see several very detailed posts and threads here on the difference between canine and human use of fats.)

I'm saying that a cup of fat, even a cup of used fryolator fat, has more than twice the calories of a cup of protein, but that doesn't mean I think it's a better deal for my money.



That is, simply put, more calories per volume measuring unit does not necessarily equal more value for your money.

What macronutrients provide those calories has to be known for me to evaluate which food is the better value.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Connie...
Thanx .... i went to the link you posted
had a problem with it :-(

when i looked up nutritional value for a drumstick i got a nice long breakdown and thought i was learning something until i glanced back at the top where it said this was only for the "edible portion" )))
- bone and cartilage was about 33% of the drumstick, but it was listed as "REFUSE" :roll:

sorry but my dog eats the refuse, so the values listed there might give info for people, but kinda useless for my dog since i feel the bones and cartilage should not be considered refuse in his diet 

at that point i gave up ](*,)](*,)

the quest continues......but i think i'll stick with raw even if i can't find out what nutritional values a raw chicken has compared to a few cups of processed kibble

i woulda thought that with all the interest and support for feeding raw, which even includes some vets nowadays, somewhere, someone woulda spent the time to do the research list nutritional comparisons rather than just say that's what canines ate before dog food was spawned. it would certainly go a long way to possibly refute the anti-raw folks who claim it is only anecdotal and possibly dangerous since fido might shed harmful bacteria or might not be able to pass a bone, or even choke to death


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

rick smith said:


> .... sorry but my dog eats the refuse, so the values listed there might give info for people, but kinda useless for my dog since i feel the bones and cartilage should not be considered refuse in his diet  ... the quest continues......but i think i'll stick with raw even if i can't find out what nutritional values a raw chicken has compared to a few cups of processed kibble ... i woulda thought that with all the interest and support for feeding raw, which even includes some vets nowadays, somewhere, someone woulda spent the time to do the research list nutritional comparisons rather than just say that's what canines ate before dog food was spawned. it would certainly go a long way to possibly refute the anti-raw folks who claim it is only anecdotal and possibly dangerous since fido might shed harmful bacteria or might not be able to pass a bone, or even choke to death


Gotcha.

The information needed to do a comparison of a specific raw diet and a specific kibble would be the nutritional data on each. 

The nutritional data on raw foods as consumed by dogs exists, but not, to my knowledge, free online on one site. It exists in giant small-animal nutrition manuals and spendy computer programs. 

If someone can provide a link making me wrong, I'll be thrilled. 



PS
There are real risks associated with feeding raw, of course. For me, they are far outweighed by the benefits. And kibble presents real risks of its own.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

I have yet to see one single problem that was caused by RAW and that's feeding raw for 7 years and knowing hundereds of people who feed raw. Not one.


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## Molly Graf (Jul 20, 2006)

I have no argument at all for good-quality kibble vs. raw - I might consider feeding raw if I fed one or two dogs. I have too many dogs to feed raw diet and not enough time in the day for preparation or even to think that much about my dogs' diet. Much much easier to scoop out kibble twice/day. Much easier to store it, travel with it, handle it, and cheaper to buy it (especially when you're talking about K9 Kravings or other packaged raw foods vs. kibble). 
I fed K9 Kravings for almost a year to one dog as a sort of experiment, and noticed the condition/coat condition of other dogs on this food. My experience with it was negative and I would never feed it again. 
I have fed TOTW for quite a few years now and my dogs do excellent on it. Their coats and body condition couldn't possibly be better. 

I've read different opinions about the amount of protein and fat that is "best" for working dogs - I've always thought that lower protein is safer over the long run. But others say higher protein is better. I know Orijin is an excellent food, better than TOTW (and more expensive) but the protein is quite high so I've always shied away from it. I'd like to learn more about the benefits if any of feeding a higher protein/calory content.

molly


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## Angie Stark (Jul 10, 2009)

I was introduced to K9 Kravings when I won a treat basket at a PSA trial this spring. I havent used their food because I feed regular raw but my dog is a huge treat snob but he LOOOOVES the K9 Kraving treats. Those elk horns are really pricey and I never would have bought one but Dozer loves the antler he got in the basket and he is STILL chewing on that thing...and we got it in April or May so thats awesome longevity!


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Molly Graf said:


> I have no argument at all for good-quality kibble vs. raw - I might consider feeding raw if I fed one or two dogs. I have too many dogs to feed raw diet and not enough time in the day for preparation or even to think that much about my dogs' diet. Much much easier to scoop out kibble twice/day. Much easier to store it, travel with it, handle it, and cheaper to buy it (especially when you're talking about K9 Kravings or other packaged raw foods vs. kibble).
> I fed K9 Kravings for almost a year to one dog as a sort of experiment, and noticed the condition/coat condition of other dogs on this food. My experience with it was negative and I would never feed it again.
> I have fed TOTW for quite a few years now and my dogs do excellent on it. Their coats and body condition couldn't possibly be better.
> 
> ...


http://www.orijen.ca/orijen/Myths_of_High_Protein.pdf

This was done by University of Penn.

And there is a study of Lancey Mackey who won the iditorod with 8 hour lead (almost unheard of) with an 8 year old dog as the lead dog floating around. About the High Fat diet he gave his dog and how well they did.


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## Molly Graf (Jul 20, 2006)

I read that study recently in another forum thread about Orijin dog food. I tend to be skeptical about an article written by the makers of the dog food LOL - are there any other studies about high protein dog food vs normal, pros and cons? One not written by a dog food brand or company?

As for high fat, that is interesting indeed, but what about the needs of dogs who are in normal amounts of exercise/training/activity. Certainly comparing even a working schutzhund dog to a dog training and competing in the Iditerod wouldn't be exactly equal. would my schutzhund dog require the same amounts of fat/protein/calories as a dog in training for the Iditerod in those temperature/weather conditions? probably not.


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

I have fed k9 Kravings in the past. I always supplemented it w/ turkey or chix parts, tripe, vit. E, fish oils, etc. I liked the results, but its way too expensive. I store it in the freezer for when and/or if I'm pressed for time, I'll thaw it and feed it. I buy it maybe twice a yr.


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## Gerald Dunn (Sep 24, 2011)

My head hurts from all of this and trying to learn what is best, I think I'll go get some Purine Pro Plan and feed the dogs.


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## Molly Graf (Jul 20, 2006)

I own a boarding kennel and see ALL sorts of dogs come in being fed every sort of food. Some have allergies or skin problems and are fed crap food which doesn't help - others are fed special diets (still kibble) that does help. Some are fed raw and they look fine too - but I always dread the raw-fed dogs - what a PITA it is to store and handle it. Hate it.
Boarders come in with the most gorgeous shiny healthy coats you could imagine and they are fed Beneful or Old Roy or Pedigree. 

"whatever works" and most dogs (yes, MOST) do just fine on "anything" even the crap foods.

molly


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

James Downey said:


> I have yet to see one single problem that was caused by RAW and that's feeding raw for 7 years and knowing hundereds of people who feed raw. Not one.


I've fed raw either in part or totally since 2005. Here's the problems I've seen either in patients I've had, other people's dogs, foster dogs, or my own dogs:

1) saw a boxer that ate a raw turkey neck last fall and got obstructed. The dog was vomiting bile off and on for about 3-4 days. I was there during the endoscopy where they ran the scope down the dog's esophagus and picked the pieces of undigested neck bones out of the dog's stomach. They were not soft either, as I felt them when they were out. 
2) seen puppies of several breeds on various raw diet with carpal laxity, low pasterns, and angular limb deformities
3) nearly every dog will have at least occasional blowout diarrhea from 
4) my in-laws have a dog that fractured a pre-molar on bison bones, which had to be extracted. My Rottweiler had a slab fractured pre-molar (might have been from raw, not 100% sure though) that also had to be extracted.
5) Vomiting bone chips up. My female Malinois will do this every so often, so I do not give her bones that tend to fracture as much. Like I'll do lamb scapulas instead of the humerus for her.
6) Young puppies who died of salmonella (like contamination from the dam, confirmed on culture)

So since starting raw feeding a number of years ago and also having access to diet software, I try to get them balanced as possible as well as not feeding large weight bearing bones (particularly from cattle) anymore as to not fracture teeth. I prefer whole prey model with a veggie/fruit mix +/- a small amount of grains for certain dogs who do better with grains. I will formulate a raw diet for anyone who would like one...have a pretty good price for WDF members.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Like I said, in my experience of Seven years and meeting hundereds people who feed raw I have never met anyone who has had a problem. I have heard tons of people tell me second hand like Maren Bell. Just like I have heard second hand tons of haunted house stories. 

Diahrea and vomit..Get out of here. Kibble dogs get the shits and puke too.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

My DDB lacerated her salvary gland on a lamb neck bone. I posted about it here before but stated it was a pork neck bone for some reason (probably because that's mostly what I fed in the past in terms of larger animal neck bones). I remember the error in that after I posted it but it was too late to adjust the post.

They're obviously very different bones, especially when cut up. I remember thinking when I bought them the first time that they were very hard and rather sharp. I should have just gone with my gut and not purchased them a second time.

That was the only problem I ever experienced while feeding raw.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

James Downey said:


> Diahrea and vomit..Get out of here. Kibble dogs get the shits and puke too.


Well, with the boxer I mentioned, this was not normally a raw fed dog, so I know it was the raw turkey that was the source of the trouble. The owner was a third year vet student who tossed a raw turkey neck from the Thanksgiving turkey out in the backyard for the neighborhood cats and her husband let the dog out in the backyard soon after, not realizing it was back there until it was too late. The dog started vomiting for several days afterwards and it never passed either up or down, so needed the endoscopy.

My female Mal vomits bone fragment chips usually the morning after a raw meal perhaps every one or two months, so as I said, I usually give bones that don't splinter as much. If I was doing as much raw feeding as I used to, I'd probably get a high quality grinder. 

My male Mal did not eat any kibble before he was 16 months of age. Was nearly 100% raw fed (a little bit of canned EVO and such here and there). Almost always had blow out diarrhea once or twice a week and not very well formed stool most of the rest of the time. I was more of the "raw is best and grains are evil" mindset at that point, so really didn't want to change. I also tried 4 types of grain free kibble to see if they worked (Taste of the Wild, all 3 varieties of EVO) and he likewise didn't do great. Finally tried California Natural and it got better, so now I know he does pretty good on California Natural, Wellness, and Healthwise. If I had the time, I'd probably home cook for him (mostly meat, some vegetables, fruits, and grains is what I suspect he'd do well on), as I feel that's probably the best way to go, if you do it correctly. I'd need to do like a gigantic crock pot and a good grinder though...


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Well, with the boxer I mentioned, this was not normally a raw fed dog, so I know it was the raw turkey that was the source of the trouble. The owner was a third year vet student who tossed a raw turkey neck from the Thanksgiving turkey out in the backyard for the neighborhood cats and her husband let the dog out in the backyard soon after, not realizing it was back there until it was too late. The dog started vomiting for several days afterwards and it never passed either up or down, so needed the endoscopy.


In my opinion you can't compare a dog eating a random turkey neck, unsupervised, for the first time, as part of statistics in "problems I've seen with a raw diet". This dog wasn't on a raw diet, he happened to eat garbage that was in the yard.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

It wasn't garbage. It was a fresh raw turkey neck meant as food for the cats. The reason that I do is because the raw feeders will say that raw bones are not a problem (say versus cooked) because the HCl in the stomach quickly pulls the inorganic calcium out of the bones that are consumed, making them softer and not as likely to cause perforations or obstructions. I felt the turkey neck bones as they pulled them out of the dog during the endoscopy. They were definitely not any softer than regular raw turkey neck bones, even after being in the stomach for several days. I was expecting them to be much more pliable than they were. The dog recovered normally from anesthesia (the nice thing about endoscopy was that all the pieces were recovered and the dog did not require surgery, just anesthesia) and was fine afterwards with no more vomiting. 

When my female Malinois vomits up occasional bone chips, they have certainly been chewed up appropriately, but they are not soft either after being in her stomach 12 hours and may certainly be sharp enough to perforate something. This is one theory that feeding something like just chicken backs or chicken thighs by itself is not appropriate, as they would normally consume some fur, feathers, grass, and so on to possibly cushion the splintered bone.


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## Gina Pasieka (Apr 25, 2010)

I feed K9 Kravings and like it a lot. I especially like that it is made in a monitored facility and that it is made locally (made in Balitmore...I live in Northern Va). He has been fed prmiarily raw since I have had him, though I do sometimes feed him Orijen. I did deal with some diarrhea for a while and cultured him positive for Campylobacter. Now I can't tell you if that was from the Primal I was originally feeding, the K9 Kravings or the raw bones that he gets. Could not even tell you if it was the Campy that was giving him the diarrhea, though I did treat him for 2 weeks with an anitbiotic and probiotic. This has not stopped me from feeding raw however...and if anyone should be stressed about what a dog can get from raw...it should be someone with a years worth of parasitology class. PS my dog looks awesone on the food!


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## Keith Kaplan (Sep 6, 2009)

In regards to Rick's question about chicken drumsticks, the University of Illinois Nutrition Analysis Tool breaks down a drumstick, that is raw, inclusive of meat and skin (not of bone, as this tool is for humans) as:
Nutrient	Total	
Calories 117.53 
Pro (g) 14.09	
Fat (g) 6.35 
Carb (g) 0 --
Na (mg) 60.59 
vitA (IU) 69.35 
vitC (mg) 1.97 
satF (g) 1.74 
Chol (mg) 59.13 

We had to use this tool for a nutrition class in college. It is free to use and you can search pretty much anything. You will give a gender/age at the beginning, but the program only utilizes that for recommended daily amount and %recommended. Just look at the first column for total and it gives specifics.

http://www.myfoodrecord.com


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## Laura Briggs (Jan 11, 2011)

Connie Sutherland said:


> The information needed to do a comparison of a specific raw diet and a specific kibble would be the nutritional data on each.
> 
> The nutritional data on raw foods as consumed by dogs exists, but not, to my knowledge, free online on one site. It exists in giant small-animal nutrition manuals and spendy computer programs.
> 
> If someone can provide a link making me wrong, I'll be thrilled.


I apologize to the OP for taking this thread slightly off topic.

I feed raw and the chemist in me would love to have my diet plan analyzed by someone who has access to a spendy nutritional analysis program (and the knowledge to let me know how my diet fits within the framework of the Nutrient Requirements of Dogs and Cats, etc. and how to tweak my diet if there are gaps). Has anyone here hired a nutritional consultant and found the results useful?


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Laura, I do have access to one of the diet management software programs. It's called ESHA Food Processor and I can take a client's diet and see how it matches up to either NRC or AAFCO. Alternatively, if clients want a sample diet with certain ingredients, I can do that too.

http://rightathomevetcare.com/nutrition.html

Not only is the software pricey, but so are the sources I can use for comparison out of the NRC and AAFCO. And the lengthy time it takes to put in all the values...but I love it. :grin:


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## Lauren Jantz (Dec 2, 2011)

I free fed the most premium foods I could afford to my dogs but somehow my 13 year old Ridgeback/Rottweiler mix, Charlie, just kept loosing muscle mass to the point that he looked like a victim of neglect. My boyfriend’s very large family gave me the scraps from hunting and since the ridiculous amount of dog food I was feeding out had cost me so much money I decided a little free food wasn't a bad thing. I cooked it up and fed it out to them, after a week of this I noticed a little more pep in Charlie's step so I gave the raw food diet another look and decided it is not as bad as germaphobes and the delta society make it out to be. Now Charlie is a healthy weight, running around like a 6 year old, and all the dogs have a little more shine to their coats.

I don’t know a ton about the nutrition of the food, I am new to raw food and need to do a lot more research, but I know how awesome my geriatric dogs look and that is enough convincing for me. I would much rather deal with nasty raw animal parts and see Charlie enjoy the last years of his life than go back to overpriced dog food just to see him waste away in front of my eyes.

Also many, but not all, dog food companies put nasty stuff like cysts, contaminated or diseased meat into their food. Some grind inorganic materials into the kibble because that is cheaper than having someone to do quality control. The kibble is often flavored with chemicals to make inedible trash appetizing to the dogs and preservatives to keep it for the long time the bags will be in storage from warehouse to store and during shipping. Some preservatives have been proven to cause cancer and liver damage. Most dog food bags are lined with a grease barrier made of a chemical that has caused cancer in dogs.
If you love animals, as I assume you do being a dog person, you should be aware that many, but not all, of the animals involved in commercial meat business are treated with shocking inhumanity and I will do as little as possible to support those companies. If you buy locally, or raise your own meat animals, you can be pretty sure what is in your dog’s food and how the animal was treated while it was raised.
Like Maren said there are risks when feeding raw but my opinion is that they are getting the food they are meant to eat and bagged food has had enough recalls for me to say there are risks with bagged food too. As a groomer for more than three years I have seen many dogs that did not develop properly or have serious skin allergies or organ failure from eating meat flavored grain. My dogs got the runs from bagged food all the time, I have never seen runs on raw but I have only been on raw a few months.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Lots of true stuff, Lauren. 

Maren is of course correct that there are risks to raw. There are risks to all feeding choices.

But I agree with you that the benefits of raw far outweigh the risks.


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