# Rolled up newspapers for civil work



## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

I've seen a couple of police k9 training videos on youtube where people roll many layers of newspaper on their hands and seal it with celotape then put on civillian clothing and take bites from the dog. I have 2 questions for those who have tried this or seen it in person.

1. Is it possible not to get serious bruises using just newspapers?

2. Is it as effective as the hidden sleeve in terms of making the decoy look as civil as possible?

Thanks in advance guys.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Never did it and don't know of anyone who has . My guess would be severe bruising would be a given and you'd be lucky not to get punctures. 

I've never used anything but equipment specifically made for bitework . I have heard from past handlers and we have pictures on the walls of our kennel of the leather and wraps they use to use back in the day . Didn't sound like fun .


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> I've seen a couple of police k9 training videos on youtube where people roll many layers of newspaper on their hands and seal it with celotape then put on civillian clothing and take bites from the dog. I have 2 questions for those who have tried this or seen it in person.
> 
> 1. Is it possible not to get serious bruises using just newspapers?
> 
> ...


I have done it. Would never try it on my HANDS though LOL...

depends on if you use a leather gauntlet, or some other type of gauntlet as the the extent of damage you might incur. 

I have seen the phone books used, and that looked ridiculous as far as being close to realistic.

It was not that fun, as Jim said, but surprisingly protective...Even with dog training equipment it is amazing, take apart a suit sometime, and see what is actually saving your ass...its pretty scary 

do you have links to the vids on youtube?


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZfdez_SjRY

at the 2:34 mark


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

That guy that took one in the wrist had to get crushed 

I use a Ray Allen RA12....I like it, but like most sleeves it does go up the arm and is more noticeable than without a sleeve. 

I have never tried any of the forearm only hidden sleeves, I have done the newspaper or just straight leather on the forearm only...gotta be real careful or you'll get one on the elbow..


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## Ricardo Ashton (Jun 3, 2010)

Newspapers?#-o Oluwatobi IMO only one of two types of person would try this. An idiot or a jackass. Don't worry about the clowns you see on youtube doing this crap. There would be a very high risk of punctures, not just bruising. Not to mention the additional risk of pieces of newspaper becoming buried deep in those punctures that can cause an infection. As well as potential low dose lead poisoning.
If you want to make a hidden sleeve you ca use a sheet of reinforced neoprene of about 3-4mm thickness. Just cut it in the shape of the forearm & use rivets or studs to hold the ends together & wrap some sack cloth over it. When will the crazy people leave dogsports alone?


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Jim Nash said:


> I've never used anything but equipment specifically made for bitework . I have heard from past handlers and we have pictures on the walls of our kennel of the leather and wraps they use to use back in the day . Didn't sound like fun .


We first started using discarded canvas covered fire hose. It was wrapped in spiral type pattern on the arm and tied with parachute cord. We then progressed to a heavy canvas, several layers thick that sort of shaped like the arm. We'd wrap a cotton target cloth on top of that. we would get several hand and shoulder bites using those. They (military) finally broke down and started buying more sport oriented sleeves, primarily from Ray Allen. they also bought some stuff from a company called Lasana Argus. I don't know if they are still in business or not. That type equipment really cut down on the injuries, but you could no longer really "feel" the dog. 

DFrost


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

We use a piece of foam pipe insulation. One piece will make one stick. Fold the insulation in half. Start from the folded end and wrap with electrical tape down to the length you want. Cut off the extra. We have never had a dog hurt with this and we DO put some heat on them. This is for the dogs safety and for the decoys safety purchase good stuff.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Ricardo Ashton said:


> Newspapers?#-o Oluwatobi IMO only one of two types of person would try this. An idiot or a jackass. Don't worry about the clowns you see on youtube doing this crap. There would be a very high risk of punctures, not just bruising. Not to mention the additional risk of pieces of newspaper becoming buried deep in those punctures that can cause an infection. As well as potential low dose lead poisoning.
> If you want to make a hidden sleeve you ca use a sheet of reinforced neoprene of about 3-4mm thickness. Just cut it in the shape of the forearm & use rivets or studs to hold the ends together & wrap some sack cloth over it. When will the crazy people leave dogsports alone?


Hi Ricardo, i felt the same way when i heard about it and now its still a bit weird to me but when i watched that video of the k9 unit i seemed the guy got decent protection.....just saying.
it starts at the 2:34 mark
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZfdez_SjRY


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Im a hick and that even makes me go HUHHH?? LOL 

I have had dogs punch through sleeves, suits, gauntlets there is no way Im going to take a bite from a full throttle bite dog with newspaper wrapped around my arm no matter how many beers I may or may not have had LOL. 

Whats wrong with getting something made for that instead? 

I like Jerry's description. That sounds safe for dog and decoy. If your going to do civil work with "found" items. 

"hidden equipment" the dogs are wise to it or get wise to it really quick.


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## R Janssen (Jul 25, 2008)

Using newspapers in noting new.

My grandfather told me a good story about that once.
His father (who was a decoy) in the 1920/30's sometimes used old newspapers for bite-work.
In those day's there wasn't always enough money around to make/buy an expensive bite suite, so they needed to improvise.
My great grandfather would instead wrap old newspapers around his arm, and hold them in place with thin ropes.
And warped over that an old jute potato sack witch was also hold in place with thin ropes.
That worked, but I'm sure the village doctor had some work from time to time to fix some holes that weren't supposed to be there. :-\"

Dutch police still uses a similar technique, first a layer of thin fabric (forgot the name) and than some layers of newspapers, hold in place with tape.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

IMHO, fire hose works the best for feeling the dog, the dog feeling you, protection from most puncture wounds, but getting the dog as close to the real thing as possible. Hidden sleeves are great as welll, but once the dog sinks his teeth in it, right away he knows...I've tried numerous sleeves from companies here and abroad and never found one that I liked better than fire hose, however the Ray Allen is the slimest, smallest, most ideal one I think. 

I have seen newspaper used, usually by old school people and works fine, just not what I would do. Protection is good, but doesn't offer the feel for you or dog, unless you just use the comic section alone.

On that note, those who feel newspaper is not enough, ever try shooting a .22 round or larger through a Sunday paper, or yet a telephone book? It does provide quite a bit of protection.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Jody Butler said:


> IMHO, fire hose works the best for feeling the dog, the dog feeling you, protection from most puncture wounds, but getting the dog as close to the real thing as possible. Hidden sleeves are great as welll, but once the dog sinks his teeth in it, right away he knows...I've tried numerous sleeves from companies here and abroad and never found one that I liked better than fire hose, however the Ray Allen is the slimest, smallest, most ideal one I think.
> 
> I have seen newspaper used, usually by old school people and works fine, just not what I would do. Protection is good, but doesn't offer the feel for you or dog, unless you just use the comic section alone.
> 
> On that note, those who feel newspaper is not enough, ever try shooting a .22 round or larger through a Sunday paper, or yet a telephone book? It does provide quite a bit of protection.


A .22 what is that? HAHAHAHAH

Seriously though .... it is beyond me why a person would use newspaper except in extreme ghetto situations where there wasn't anything else. I have never done it but Id bet 1.00 that the dog gets wise right away LOL. Actually I have a piece of ballistic nylon that was built to cover a piece of equipment. The problem is these big dogs bring so much pressure that regardless of the material the pressure on bone will drop you. Unless you catch him on slack.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Brian Anderson said:


> A .22 what is that? HAHAHAHAH
> 
> Seriously though .... it is beyond me why a person would use newspaper except in extreme ghetto situations where there wasn't anything else. I have never done it but Id bet 1.00 that the dog gets wise right away LOL. Actually I have a piece of ballistic nylon that was built to cover a piece of equipment. The problem is these big dogs bring so much pressure that regardless of the material the pressure on bone will drop you. Unless you catch him on slack.


Absolutely, even with fire hose, a strong dog can fracture bone, thats where you need to be smart in knowing the dog and what equipment to be used on each, just like foundation work. I would never allow just anybody to take a bite using fire hose from any dog, they need to be within and know the dogs a whole lot. The dogs are never completey off leash or handler far off. Need to be safe and the its more of a test/assessment to see if the dog will? and his/her reaction and committment thereafter.

Not an everyday training exercise and if it is a street dog, and a good one, if all safety parameters aren't met, ie protection and set the dog and decoy up for success, someone will get hurt! Same goes with a hidden sleeve. 

I've seen someone do a runaway with a PSD and had newspaper on his arm, handler let dog go and stood there??? After the dog grabbed the guy in the leg he started sprinting to the dog and choked him off! That was stupid in my opinion and careless. Even the out, or choke-off when using these peices of equipment or newspaer, ballistic material etc, the out is very important if the dog is dirty or just doesn't out! The damage to the decoy can become severe if not taken seriously or thought out in advance. 

Just as every training excerise, you need to have a goal/endstate for the dog and take all risk measures into consideration.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

I've seen someone do a runaway with a PSD and had newspaper on his arm, handler let dog go and stood there??? After the dog grabbed the guy in the leg he started sprinting to the dog and choked him off! That was stupid in my opinion and careless. 

Nice 'training scenario'....:-D


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Jody Butler said:


> Absolutely, even with fire hose, a strong dog can fracture bone, thats where you need to be smart in knowing the dog and what equipment to be used on each, just like foundation work. I would never allow just anybody to take a bite using fire hose from any dog, they need to be within and know the dogs a whole lot. The dogs are never completey off leash or handler far off. Need to be safe and the its more of a test/assessment to see if the dog will? and his/her reaction and committment thereafter.
> 
> Not an everyday training exercise and if it is a street dog, and a good one, if all safety parameters aren't met, ie protection and set the dog and decoy up for success, someone will get hurt! Same goes with a hidden sleeve.
> 
> ...


Ouchhhhh ... um I will pass on working dogs with those guys LOL


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

man dont you guys just try something for fun?

When I did it, it was a PSD K9 training facility, not in a ghetto....LOL..


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## Tom Conroy (Jun 1, 2010)

Ok, I have been a member of the forum for a little while and am going to jump in and post. I am a retired police k9 handler/trainer, 28 years on the job. After retiring I was asked to train a patrol dog class for a New Jersey deparment that I had trained with occassionally in the past. Here is a fun video of training with wraps, old mailbag canvas and burlap. This was in the first weeks of class so please excuse new handler errors. Also, this is the first time these dogs worked on "wraps".These wraps are later applied very sparingly with an exposed hand to simulate a realistic appearance. When done properly with a long sleeve tee shirt you cannot tell, visually, that the decoy is "wrapped'. This was back in February so hence I am the guy with the blue hooded sweatshirt trying to stay warm. I hope you enjoy this video and the others available on the youtube channel. This class was initiated to replace a dog, K-9 Schultz, that had been killed in the line of duty on 11-30-2010. You will see two of the three dogs in the class. The officer whose dog was killed is not in the video as his new dog was not in yet when this video was made. Enjoy! 
Tom Conroy
Law Enforcement Training Services L.L.C.

*"Being advanced is a faster application of the basics"*

http://www.youtube.com/user/njpk9a#p/u/6/rotk5TZvfwU


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> man dont you guys just try something for fun?
> 
> When I did it, it was a PSD K9 training facility, not in a ghetto....LOL..


Joby since the cats outta the bag and folks now consider me an "old geezer" rightly so I reckon LMAO... I am trying to be more "hip" and "with it" in my lingo HAHAHAHAHA (or are those words just as old as I am???)


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## Pete Stevens (Dec 16, 2010)

I'm the idiot and jackass who has done this and its a great training tool. Nothing more than a hidden sleeve really. I learned it from Dick Van Leenen, recently retired Lt. from the Netherlands National Police and a good friend of mine and his training partner, Greg Thomas from Gilbert PD in Az. It does not leave any bruising but has to be properly. Wrap about an inch of newspaper all the way around your forearm and wrap that in tape. Put on a long sleeve cover shirt and get ready to rumble. The dog needs to be on a flat collar, I prefer an agitation collar. The handler, with two hands on the collar, places the dog on the forearm for a bite, similar to a street scenario where you have a officers fighting with a suspect and have to place the dog on the suspect. The handler DOES NOT let go of the collar in case the dog resets and moves towards the elbow. I prefer to have the dog taken off strong or if it is verally outed, the handler still must have oth hands on the collar. There must be clear communication between handler and decoy.

Why do this? Its a hidden sleeve without the odor of a sleeve or like feel of a suit. Once you use a sleeve, it smells like dog spit and sweat, just like a suit. It also does not feel like a suit/sleeve bite and is pretty close to an actual bite.

When I've done this, I've seen the same reaction when I've seen from a dog on its' first street bite which is "What is this? I've never felt this before when I've bite before". Its just another way of helping your dog experience unfimilar things and remaining safe in training.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Put my name in the "seen it done" hat. Although I wasn't the person taking the bites (whew, I only did regular sleeve work) we used to do this way back when, when I was involved with training personal protection dogs. Our dogs were taught using Sch style sleeves, although some of our sleeves I'm not sure I've ever seen on a Sch field LOL We had some pretty interesting equipment. But we did "hidden sleeve" work for a few years using newspaper, phone books, leather and burlap wraps, etc before I think the trainer did eventually get a hidden sleeve. I don't recall anyone ever getting any punctures, at least nothing that needed medical care, but it's been over 20 years so it's possible it happened.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Pete Stevens said:


> It does not leave any bruising but has to be properly. Wrap about an inch of newspaper all the way around your forearm and wrap that in tape.


an inch...maybe that is why I got beat up some...not an inch..

It is a lot more protective than one might think..


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Used it in my policeforce many times and did it myself often....

I thought you All American guys where supertough...:-k...:mrgreen:


Dick


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Tom Conroy said:


> Ok, I have been a member of the forum for a little while and am going to jump in and post. I am a retired police k9 handler/trainer, 28 years on the job. After retiring I was asked to train a patrol dog class for a New Jersey deparment that I had trained with occassionally in the past. Here is a fun video of training with wraps, old mailbag canvas and burlap. This was in the first weeks of class so please excuse new handler errors. Also, this is the first time these dogs worked on "wraps".These wraps are later applied very sparingly with an exposed hand to simulate a realistic appearance. When done properly with a long sleeve tee shirt you cannot tell, visually, that the decoy is "wrapped'. This was back in February so hence I am the guy with the blue hooded sweatshirt trying to stay warm. I hope you enjoy this video and the others available on the youtube channel. This class was initiated to replace a dog, K-9 Schultz, that had been killed in the line of duty on 11-30-2010. You will see two of the three dogs in the class. The officer whose dog was killed is not in the video as his new dog was not in yet when this video was made. Enjoy!
> Tom Conroy
> Law Enforcement Training Services L.L.C.
> 
> ...


Those look like the wraps our guys used . I also found a jute cover that was used after moving on from the wraps . Just a peice of jute shaped like a bitesleeve with laces running up the center . Never got around to asking anyone how it worked , assumimg either wraps our some other padding was put underneathe . I held onto it because I'm sure there's alot of history behind it .


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

I have done it quite a few times. 

The part that you should understand is that their is usually one layer of kevlar from an old vest. Then you layer a couple of USA todays and tape it up. You can repeat as many times as you want. Have seen really thick and very thin. The initial bite is easy. Its when the newspaper starts to get wet that you can really start to feel it.

The bites are generally very controlled. Either with the hands on the dogs collar or jowls and placed on the bite. A little fighting but nothing crazy.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

will fernandez said:


> I have done it quite a few times.
> 
> The part that you should understand is that their is usually one layer of kevlar from an old vest. Then you layer a couple of USA todays and tape it up. You can repeat as many times as you want. Have seen really thick and very thin. The initial bite is easy. Its when the newspaper starts to get wet that you can really start to feel it.
> 
> The bites are generally very controlled. Either with the hands on the dogs collar or jowls and placed on the bite. A little fighting but nothing crazy.


Have you done it in Nunspeet or Rotterdam, Will???

And did they explane "the why"???


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Selena 

I have done it in both places and in the US. The reasons explained to me were the odor and texture. Another step to get your dog ready for its first apprehension. We expose all of our new dogs to this now.


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## Pete Stevens (Dec 16, 2010)

I learned in Los Angeles and Phoenix while Dick and Tom were teaching at seminars but I know that Will has trained with Dick Van Leenen on several occasions in the NL and in Aruba (lucky bastard). I agree with the texture, smell, and visual exspoure. Next best thing to a real bite.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Tom Conroy said:


> Ok, I have been a member of the forum for a little while and am going to jump in and post. I am a retired police k9 handler/trainer, 28 years on the job. After retiring I was asked to train a patrol dog class for a New Jersey deparment that I had trained with occassionally in the past. Here is a fun video of training with wraps, old mailbag canvas and burlap. This was in the first weeks of class so please excuse new handler errors. Also, this is the first time these dogs worked on "wraps".These wraps are later applied very sparingly with an exposed hand to simulate a realistic appearance. When done properly with a long sleeve tee shirt you cannot tell, visually, that the decoy is "wrapped'. This was back in February so hence I am the guy with the blue hooded sweatshirt trying to stay warm. I hope you enjoy this video and the others available on the youtube channel. This class was initiated to replace a dog, K-9 Schultz, that had been killed in the line of duty on 11-30-2010. You will see two of the three dogs in the class. The officer whose dog was killed is not in the video as his new dog was not in yet when this video was made. Enjoy!
> Tom Conroy
> Law Enforcement Training Services L.L.C.
> 
> ...


Thanks for sharing that video...very informative for me.


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## Dwyras Brown (Nov 21, 2008)

Newspaper should work very well. It is used by inmates to stop puncture wounds from shanks, so I think it should have no problem stopping a dog's teeth.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Used it in my policeforce many times and did it myself often....
> 
> I thought you All American guys where supertough...:-k...:mrgreen:
> 
> ...


Dick you guys wrote the book on this stuff LOL ...


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Brian Anderson said:


> Dick you guys wrote the book on this stuff LOL ...


 
Hahahaha, just making fun, Brian..

Dick


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Used it in my policeforce many times and did it myself often....
> 
> I thought you All American guys where supertough...:-k...:mrgreen:
> 
> ...


Not me. Only one thing this boy is afraid of - - - PAIN.

DFrost


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

I watched Dick Van Leen and Gregg work the news paper sleeve at this past NAPWDA National Workshop.... a whole lot of newspaper goes into it....a WHOLE lot.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

When you use so many wraps of paper or material, or even add a jute covering what exactly is the point then? Then when you give the dog a bite, it should be HIDDEN, with a shirt or something over it, to make it look like nothing is worn.....from most of the comments and even video, this really isn't any different than a regular sleeve or big hidden sleeve. 

The idea of getting the dog to bite and stay engaged for real is to make it look and feel as real as possible with safety and control in mind. 

In my eyes, two much newspaper doesn't do anything, nor make the dog feel the person, burlap or jute should not be used at all, control is of the utmost as little protective clothing is suppose to be worn anyway and by all means wear a long sleeve t-shirt or sweatshirt!

Train as you fight! Will your dog engage and stay engaged if he bites for real on the street? Thats an answer you won't have until that day, BUT you can attempt to get as close as you can in training, think about the end result and what you are doing and what you want to do and start taking the steps to get there.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Guys, this is the way its done.
Wrap the newspapers very tight around your arm or legg. Make it even tighder with the tape. The "technique of the newspapers" can only be used in a real controlled manner.
Handler "puts" his dog by holding him close at the colar at the spot the newspapers are and let the dog take a bite there.
Presenting an arm or legg distroys the effect of testing your dog how ready he is to work the streets. The dog should not "read" the decoy before the bite so he knows he IS a decoy.

Civil with newspapers is a way to test a dog after preparing him in training for the street first.
If you will do it all the time, the effect of using newspaper is gone also. ( they will get used to the scent of the newspaper also, so no difference with a bitesuit then...:mrgreen: )

Dick


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## Adi Ibrahimbegovic (Nov 21, 2008)

Yes!

Rolled up newspapers used a sleeve is a GREAT idea!

However, you have to be careful, though, since not all newspapers are the same and not all dogs are the same.

This is how yo have to do it:

Use Wall Street Journal (especially the stocks section) only on very smart dogs with high drive

Use New York Times on cocky dogs, with low tresholds and a lot of barking

Use LA Examiner on a laid back, prey only newspaper sucker type dogs

Use Boston Globe on a scrappy, junkyard style dog

and

Use Philadelphia Enquirer on a soft dog, full of brotherly love.

Hope that helps and happy training. Sleeves are too expensive and overrated anyway!


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Great information Adi
but all I have available are old copies of the National Enquirer.
what kind of dog should I be working? ;-)





Adi Ibrahimbegovic said:


> Yes!
> 
> Rolled up newspapers used a sleeve is a GREAT idea!
> 
> ...


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

I did this a couple times as a military handler. Seems like the tight wrapping of the paper actually makes it hurt a lot less. Turns your arm into a barrel almost. We used fire hose more than paper. 

I had an old timer kennel master tell me that all they used to use was newspaper to take a bite, they all liked it a lot more when it was Sundays as the paper was thicker....


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Yup done it myself and have done it on occasion over the years, haven't done it though in about three if not four years and really don't have any desire to do it anytime soon, never tried firehouse or phone books so might actually give it a whirl to see the effect of it so I can say I have experienced it.

Where are you guys getting spare fire house to do it with ?, I dont see a FD just giving your house to cut up:-o


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Harry Keely said:


> Where are you guys getting spare fire house to do it with ?, I dont see a FD just giving your house to cut up:-o


I got a bunch of it from my brother who is a fireman, they go through and test the hoses on a regular basis, anything that has sprung a leak is thrown out so he grabbed 3 or 4 hoses, with the nozzles removed, and sent them to me. You might contact your local department and ask what they do with the used hose. I did run them through my washing machine a number of times, just to make sure there wasn't any residue on them.

You can also purchase fire hose online, in a wide variety of pretty colors :lol::lol::lol:


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I got a bunch of it from my brother who is a fireman, they go through and test the hoses on a regular basis, anything that has sprung a leak is thrown out so he grabbed 3 or 4 hoses, with the nozzles removed, and sent them to me. You might contact your local department and ask what they do with the used hose. I did run them through my washing machine a number of times, just to make sure there wasn't any residue on them.
> 
> You can also purchase fire hose online, in a wide variety of pretty colors :lol::lol::lol:


Thanks Kadi


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## Adi Ibrahimbegovic (Nov 21, 2008)

that one only works on backyard pits, chained to an obligatory tire. decoy must be a stocky guy with tattoos, goatee and shaved head, with his wallet chained to his back pocket, any of those missing, N. enquirer is ineffective.



Thomas Barriano said:


> Great information Adi
> but all I have available are old copies of the National Enquirer.
> what kind of dog should I be working? ;-)


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