# How would you deal with a dog that is dominate?



## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

On another board there is a dog GSD that is 14 months old. His bloodline has a lot of this issue. The owners can't get him to out and he grawls at them for trying to take any object that he has. What would you do to correct this problem or do you think it is a problem? Thanks and this should be a good topic.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

For them it is obvisiouly a problem :wink: If they were firmer in the past, a lot of the problems wouldn´t exist now I expect. Firm actions towards the dog, and no privleges anymore.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jerry Lyda said:


> On another board there is a dog GSD that is 14 months old. His bloodline has a lot of this issue. The owners can't get him to out and he grawls at them for trying to take any object that he has. What would you do to correct this problem or do you think it is a problem? Thanks and this should be a good topic.


Yes, it is a problem, IMO. This URL below pretty much explains how I have managed this with someone else's dogs before. 

This applies to pet dogs who do NOT exhibit other signs of aggression.

First I took the dog for a looooong walk and the dog was fed. Now the dog is not full of frustrated energy and is tired and happy. Then I practiced trading the toy for an especially wonderful treat (bacon) and praising like a nut with each trade. I did this in front of the owners so they would know what routine to continue until the possession aggression was under control.

In both cases, the problem arose with all the dogs' toys, but if I had been confronted with just one particular toy causing the problem, I would have confiscated it.

BTW, these two dogs (different households) were *not* aggressive in other ways. There would have been a lot more to this answer if they had been!

From http://www.VeterinaryPartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&C=157&A=1462&S=1
about possession (food, treat, toy) aggression:

7. Do the prevention exercises with your dog's toys, too. Have an adult ask the dog for the toy, gently take it, look at it, give the dog a treat, and then return the toy. Eventually include the children, but maintain a high level of adult supervision when you do this, and teach the kids not to take the dog's toys at other times. If a dog shows a strong tendency to guard any particular toy, that toy must be removed. Better the dog lose the enjoyment of a toy than to lose the dog's life when the dog becomes too dangerous. You may be able to allow the dog to enjoy it strictly in a private place such as the dog's crate. 

8. Never chase a dog down to get something the dog has stolen. This triggers the same instincts as food guarding, and also teaches your dog to run from you. Condition your dog instead to bring things to you for great trades, plus praise and other rewards.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

P.S. The loooooong walk first is something I learned from Cesar Millan whenever the issue is one of aggression, dominance, etc.

The dog has both released frustrated energy and been reminded of his pack position.

I learned this a long time ago from CM, and his new book also emphathizes the importance of the walk.

P.P.S. I will be interested in what experienced handlers will have to say about possession/food aggression. I think it might play a big role in dog bites involving kids. I hope this thread grows. Good subject, Jerry, IMO!


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

Hi Connie, isn't the long walk more about control and mental stimulation than tiring the dog out? I mean i can walk my dogs till legs fall off and they're not going to be tired, maybe thirsty but not tired. Maybe a long brisk bike ride would do it but not walking.
AL


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Al Curbow said:


> Hi Connie, isn't the long walk more about control and mental stimulation than tiring the dog out? I mean i can walk my dogs till legs fall off and they're not going to be tired, maybe thirsty but not tired. Maybe a long brisk bike ride would do it but not walking.
> AL


Well, I admit that the dogs I help with aren't generally working dogs, and they are not all big dogs, even -- maybe 50-50 small and large. So the dog *might* be tired out from a looooong walk, but the goal (in my P.S.) is that "The dog has both released frustrated energy and been reminded of his pack position."

What I want is a dog who has not been building tension and energy all day locked indoors.

So yes, Al, you are absolutely correct.

And if you meant about tiring the dog in general, every day, I agree 100% with you that while the long walk is essential, so is whatever it takes to tire out the dog.


*99% of the time it's with pack leader issues


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

I didn't mean to bring the post off topic so i'll start a new topic  ,
AL


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Al Curbow said:


> I didn't mean to bring the post off topic so i'll start a new topic  ,
> AL


I did! :>)


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## Greg Long (Mar 27, 2006)

I agree that walking would be a good start.

A leash and a prong is even better.

This is probably not just a problem of the dog not giving up his toy but this is where the problem shows up.

The dog needs a firm but fair leader.Some dogs need a stronger leader than others.

Greg


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Thanks Greg, That's what I am thinking too. The firm fair correction should have been done long ago and maybe this would not be an issue now. This dog is really bad. Worse than my first post indicated. He is now 14 months old and I think is owned by a lady who does schutzhund. Now is the time to put him on his back and make him think heaven has opened up and he's fixing to go through the pearly gates. I had said this on the other forum and some people thought that was the most poorly given advise they had heard. They were afriad it would make him worse. Well it may. If he is allowed to keep doing it then it can really get nasty. They were also afraid the owner would get hurt. Well that too may happen. Some said to take him on long walks to show him who the alfa is. How is this correcting that problem? I believe that one good hard correction beats a hundred litttle don't do that ,please. Give me a brake. 
I'd really like to hear from more of you about what you would do. I think too that if this person that ownes this dog don't get it fixed they need to find him a home where he will be taught to respect his owner before he hurts some one.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Sorry Connie I just don't understand the long walk thing. Help me understand.
Thanks.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jerry Lyda said:


> Sorry Connie I just don't understand the long walk thing. Help me understand.
> Thanks.


OK. The long walk thing is NOT directly about the possession-aggression.

Say a neighbor or someone is my dog's club asks for help with her dog who is growling when the handler tries to take something away from him, and she wants help.

She says: QUOTE: He growls at me for trying to take any object that he has. What would you do to correct this problem or do you think it is a problem? END QUOTE

This dog is basically a stranger to me.

The first thing I do is go there, meet the dog, and take the dog for a long walk. I don't mean around the block; I mean 1/2 hour or 45 minutes.

The dog has now been introduced to the fact that he won't lead me, as we left his house with me in front and as we walked with him never allowed to pull or lead me, and as he was given leash corrections if needed.

Now the dog knows that he's not allowed to lead me, and if he was filled with frustrated nervous energy, some of it has been released. He also has been with me long enough to have started a habit of obeying me.

Then I would start swapping possessions and teaching him that giving up his possession gets him good stuff in return.

As Greg said, this dog needs a firm leader, and IMO, the leadership role is reinforced over and over every day during the walk, which is what is hardwired into their brains (IMO) to do all day long, every day: follow the alpha.

HOWEVER, I also said that if the dog was aggressive in other ways, my post about it would be much longer. I didn't have info like "He's really bad." It sounds like he has other issues besides growling over a toy. (There *are* dogs who aren't dominant in any other way who have possession aggression.)

You'd probably get much more detailed (and way firmer) advice here if we had read the other thread where the dog was described.

What I said (and I mentioned this) was based on a dog whose only issue was over his toy ("things").

"Don't do that, please" is not in my dog-speak repertoire. 

This: "This dog is really bad. Worse than my first post indicated. " will get you way different answers from swapping toys. 

Still, though, I do start with a walk, with me holding the leash, when I'm asked to help with a dog I don't know, for the reasons above.

When you talked about correcting him on the other thread, are you saying he is showing dominance and aggression and that when you mentioned correcting him, people said no, because he'd get worse??


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

It occurs to me that your title should have clued me that you didn't mean just a possession-aggression issue!


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

OK the walk makes more sence to me( showing how's boss). Thanks 

I didn't mean that you said don't do that please thing, that was someone else that mentioned that. 

I believe the person that owns him isn't strong enough to handle this type dog and I have no idea who this person is. There has to be away to get this type behavior fixed quick. Maybe there isn't and maybe I'm wishing there is but this dog can and will hurt someone. If this is the only issue with this dog maybe then it could be fixed quick but I agree with Greg(I think it was Greg)there maybe more to it than that. I know I know there's a lot of if's and maybe's in what I've said but we don't really know everything that's going on here.

Thanks Connie, I really mean that
Jerry


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## Greg Long (Mar 27, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Jerry Lyda said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry Connie I just don't understand the long walk thing. Help me understand.
> ...


 I agree with all of this but to me the walk is just the very beginning of a program to fix this problem.

Also,this isnt a "take him for a few walks and then he's fine" thing.This must be an ongoing thing to really work.

The only thing different I would do is not trade anything.I would take permanent possession over the object and give-take whenever the urge strikes me.
Definitely the walking is one of the first things to do.Along with obstacle work. :wink: 

Greg


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

My suggestion would be for someone else to do the initial training/corrections on this dog if she/he isn't strond enough to control it, as you mentioned. AT LEAST in the company of someone that can control the dog. A prong could possibly just fire up a tough dog. If it were me, I'd string the dog up, but that in itself depends on the character of the dog. The possessivness isn't necessarily true aggression. Just an aggressive responsive to weak owner.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Bob THAT may very well be the whole issue here( weak Owner) and I don't mean phyisically. Like I had said before, this should have been corrected long ago, but it wasn't now we are here.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Greg Long said:


> ....... I agree with all of this but to me the walk is just the very beginning of a program to fix this problem.
> 
> Also,this isnt a "take him for a few walks and then he's fine" thing.This must be an ongoing thing to really work.
> 
> ...


Yes, you're right about the trade. I'm afraid I had adolescent-growling-over-toy in my brain. I was wrong about that part, although it worked for me twice. It worked for me because I was dealing with generally submissive young dogs (pets) who were trying on the possession-aggression for size. 

You are correct that the pack leader has to claim everything. Nothing belongs to the dog. 

I'm glad you agree about the walk. It's crucial for me. OTOH, I have certainly met trainers who never heard of anything so time-wasting!  

When I work with other people's dogs, it's not really sit-heel-down-come; it's lack of leadership in the owner.

And you're also right about the ongoing-ness of teaching the dog his position in the pack. The walk is part of the big package, in which the dog never wins, in any disagreement with the owner, over anything.

What's obstacle work? Like agility?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> My suggestion would be for someone else to do the initial training/corrections on this dog if she/he isn't strond enough to control it, as you mentioned. AT LEAST in the company of someone that can control the dog. A prong could possibly just fire up a tough dog. If it were me, I'd string the dog up, but that in itself depends on the character of the dog. The possessivness isn't necessarily true aggression. Just an aggressive responsive to weak owner.


Bob,

If this was just one manifestation of a dominant dog, as opposed to just possession-aggression, I think you would be correct about choking out the dog, if necessary. And I think you have approximately 900 times as much different-dog experiences as I have.

As the thread progresses, it sounds like a dominant-aggressive dog more than just a dog who's protecting his resources and needs to quit that.


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

Something Connie said made me wonder...... can you guys hand the leash off to a stranger and walk away and your dogs will listen to that person and go on a nice walk or whatever? Is this a hijack? lol
AL


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Also a lot of dominance work on the owners part. I go thru the door first! I feed you when you obey my down command! YOU don't rush out of your crate untill I give the ok! 
There are to many people that shoudln't own a strong dog like this. That may be the final decision this person has to realize.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Connie, I think it's both dominant-aggressive and possessive aggression.
I copied the orginal post and here it is. Now maybe we can make more sence out of this behavior with all you guys help.

I have been having some dominance issues with my 14month old Crok grandson. 
He isn't that bad yet, but i can see it starting to escalate so i want to nip it
now while hes still young and before it get really bad. It seems like he will
fight me just to fight me. He knows out, and outside his crate he will usually
out fairly well with out much choking off or anything else, but sometimes it
seems like he decides he doesn't want to let go and wont let go for nothing. 
Ive tried choking him off when he gets like this and he will let his tongue go
blue and gasp for air but still wont let go, if i try to pinch his gums/ears/etc
hell start this screaming (assuming from the pain of being pinched) but will
just clamp down harder, I have tried to use other toys/balls (even the exact
same type- same ball with the same rope) and tried to use food etc. Everything
i have tried that have been suggested to me for outting works SOMETIMES but when
he gets in his mood it seems no
motivation, no correction no nothing is worth letting go. Also if he happens
to jump in his crate to fast and i dont get the toy/ball from him, he kind of
puts his head down and gives me this look like he's saying "just try to take it,
ill hurt you" Now needless to say, i am not scared of him, and reach in there
and take the ball/toy (well try too ;-)) He is also being more defiant in other
aspects like OB and general house manners/OB. He is also starting to jump on my
3.5yr old male for no reason (my other male is far from being an Alpha, but hes
not the Omega either, he seems to just not care about the pack order) which in
return will cause a fight. OK so my question is, WHAT do i do to correct this
behavior, before he gets older and more mature and becomes worse. I have had
people suggest getting physical with him to show my dominance, but i do not
think this will work because even as a puppy i have gotten pretty physical with
him ( issues dealing with the cats in
the house because he is a house dog) and it doesnt even phase him. TIA


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Al Curbow said:


> Something Connie said made me wonder...... can you guys hand the leash off to a stranger and walk away and your dogs will listen to that person and go on a nice walk or whatever? Is this a hijack? lol
> AL


I bet they can't. All my own experience is with pets, not working dogs. I had the idea that working dogs' owners didn't have pack-leader issues.

So, no, Al, I'll bet I couldn't take your dog's leash and walk off with him. :lol: :lol: 

And back to the topic:

Bob said "Also a lot of dominance work on the owners part. I go thru the door first! I feed you when you obey my down command! YOU don't rush out of your crate untill I give the ok! 
There are to many people that shoudln't own a strong dog like this. That may be the final decision this person has to realize."


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## Greg Long (Mar 27, 2006)

For a quick fix....hang the sucker! :lol: 

But I would probably just establish leadership a little more slowly and dont give him anything to have to let go of for awhile.
It sounds like the dog has more of a bond with the ball than it does with the owner.

Greg


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Greg Long said:


> For a quick fix....hang the sucker! :lol:
> 
> But I would probably just establish leadership a little more slowly and dont give him anything to have to let go of for awhile.
> It sounds like the dog has more of a bond with the ball than it does with the owner.
> ...


And separate this dog from the other dog he is attacking. ("He is also starting to jump on my 3.5yr old male for no reason.")

Also, this quote: "Everything i have tried that have been suggested to me for outting works SOMETIMES," says she might be going from one idea to another, or that she's inconsistent in her demeanor with this dog.

Reading closely, she sounds (maybe) like the personality type two posters have said should not own this type of dog. Or at the very least, not without professional help. I think it was Greg who said once that this kind of problem needs pro help *in person* (as opposed to on the web).


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote:Something Connie said made me wonder...... can you guys hand the leash off to a stranger and walk away and your dogs will listen to that person and go on a nice walk or whatever? Is this a hijack? lol

Yes, my dogs will do this. I have had dogs that wouldn't in the past, and I do not want to go there again. 

As far as the dominant dog thing, this really seems to be the owner, and all training should be directed at her. If you can fix her frame of mind, I think the rest will fall in as she gets better. No need to punish the dog for her transgressions as an owner.

As far as giving credit to Ceasar for the long walk, [-X better go back some. It, as far as I know belongs to Koehler. In fact, sorry kids that like to call him yank and crank, but you are watching Bill Koehlers work and theorys in action on his program. BK is my hero! Yet another person capitalizing on BK, and America hasn't a clue. :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

PS, she should give me the dog. No need for her to struggle so. I have a nice useless dog she can have, and she won't have to choke her at all.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

If this owner can't control the dog, I can't imagine any scenarios given over a web page will be followed corectly. From the original post that Jerry put up, I see to much inconsistancy in how the dog is presently being handled. It's a way to simple answer, but I think this dog and owner are a bad matchup. 
Dog pounds are filled up with animals that are just to much to handle.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> .....As far as giving credit to Ceasar for the long walk, [-X better go back some. It, as far as I know belongs to Koehler. In fact, sorry kids that like to call him yank and crank, but you are watching Bill Koehlers work and theorys in action on his program. BK is my hero! Yet another person capitalizing on BK, and America hasn't a clue. :lol: :lol: :lol:


Let's hope it goes back more than that too. The soundest and most solid ideas do tend to be passed on from excellent practitioner to excellent practitioner. 

It's just that the excellent practitioner I happened to see and be impressed with was Cesar Millan. Right place, right time.....


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

It looks as if someone has advocated the alpha roll to use with this dog. I'm not a big fan of that for the reasons described below. This is an article that I've posted to a few places before. 
++++++++++++++++++ 


The alpha roll was repopularized in the book 'How to Be Your Dog's Best Friend' by the Monks of New Skete which came out in the late 70's or early 80's. Before that it faded in and out of popularity and use. 

I'm told that in the latest edition of this book the alpha roll is no longer included as a training tool. 

To perform the roll you're supposed to grab the dog by the excess skin around his neck, force him backwards into a sit and then roll him to one side. Some trainers advocate rolling him all the way onto his back. The idea is that you're simulating something that dogs do to one another when the dominant dog is displaying his dominance to the submissive dog. 

But it's just not so. If you watch some dogs at play, for example at a dog park or the zoo, or watch the Discovery Channel. Use a Video Camera (or record the TV) so you can play it back several times. You'll see what at first looks like an alpha roll but when you examine if carefully it's not even close. When dogs do this, the dominant dog doesn't force the submissive dog to do anything. It's the submissive dog who's doing all the work. The dominant dog puts his foot up on the submissive dog's shoulder or back and the submissive dog rolls himself under the dominant dog. 

And so when you do the alpha roll thing you're doing something that's completely foreign to the dog, rather than something he's familiar with. You're showing him that you're bigger and stronger than him, but he already knows that. It's the action of a bully, not a fair and just leader. 

Real dogs in the real world don't do anything like this. When a submissive dog rolls himself under the dominant dog it's because he's showing submission. This isn't a case of the dominant dog showing dominance. He's already done that merely by placing his foot on the other dog's shoulder or back and that's the reason that the submissive dog has gone down. 

And so the alpha roll as dogs do it, isn't a display of dominance; it's one of submission, where the submissive dog is doing the work. It starts with the dominant dog putting a foot up but the rolling portion, the part that the alpha roll is simulating is done by the submissive dog. The alpha dog is only present by virtue of his personality, he's not rolling the other dog at all. 

If you do this to the right dog (wrong dog) he'll eat you for your trouble. And since the closest thing to bite is your face, that's where you'll get it. It's hard to give an out command when the dog is holding you by the face! 

For over 20 years I've been training some of the most dominant, most aggressive, most fearless dogs on the planet. I've never found the alpha roll necessary. I've done it once or twice when I was new and someone told me that I should. It didn't have the desired effect and after thinking about it and talking about it to the right folks, I discarded it. 

Dogs almost NEVER submissively pee to other dogs, especially members of their own pack. That's reserved almost exclusively for their humans who, without realizing it put the dog into an overly submissive position and the dog has no choice. Some dogs extremely low in the pack pecking order, the omega dog may show submissive urination every time that a dominant dog (that's every other dog in the pack) approaches, but that's still a very rare display. 

Your height already provides a cue to the dog that you're dominant. There are some trainers who will tell you to never let your dog stand over you but I think that you need to permit this once in a while. Some trainers tell you to NEVER allow it. But if you think about what I do and how it gets done, training and working police service dogs, you'll realize that it's good to, once in a while get on the ground with your dog and play with him as dogs play together. 

Let me paint a picture for you. Imagine the type of handler who's been trained that he has to alpha roll his dog once a week to remain the alpha. Also imagine that he's been trained never to let his dog be on top of him. The handler gets into a fight, and like most fights it winds up on the ground. He calls his dog for assistance and as the dog runs to the scene he sees the 'alpha dog' on the ground, someplace he's never seen him. He remembers that this 'alpha dog' has been rolling him every week since they've been together and maintaining his alpha position with brute force. He sees this alpha dog fighting with a complete stranger, someone who's never hurt him or done anything to him before. Do you think it's possible that he'll think that NOW is a good time to rise to the top of the pack? Could be! 

Wouldn't it be better if that dog had been lead by a fair and just pack leader who didn't use physical force to maintain his position? Since the #2 dog has rights that the #3 or #4 doesn't, wouldn't it be better if the dog thought of himself as the #2 dog in the pack not just as any subordinate animal. 

If you alpha roll your dog consistently he'll become afraid of you. That's not a good relationship, particularly if you want the dog to work protection for you. He'll do it but you might find him "attached" to you occasionally. I think that the best relationship between the handler and the dog is one of mutual trust and respect. A dog that's rolled won't trust the handler, he'll fear him. This may not show up in the form of the dog cowering from the handler, except in extreme circumstances. But there other, much more subtle ways it shows up. 

Want to be an Alpha? Begin by acting like one. Stand up tall and act like a leader. Notice that most dogs are submissive to a good trainer just by him walking onto the field. That's because he knows how to stand, carry himself and talk as a leader. He hasn't alpha rolled your dog. He hasn't kicked your dog's butt, but your dog knows, at a glance, who the alpha is. Use a normal voice. When adult dogs play with other adult dogs they use a certain tone of voice (bark). When puppies play with adults or other puppies pitched they use a high pitched yip. If you use a high pitched voice when playing with or praising your adult dog how do you think he thinks of you? As a mature adult capable of leading him? Or as an immature pack member? Now I'm not saying that he'll immediately become alpha if you praise or talk to him in a high pitched voice but I am saying that you're sending a mixed message to him. One that can put some doubts in his mind as to your exact position in the pack. 

Being accepted as the alpha doesn't mean that you're the biggest, baddest one in the pack. Anyone who teaches that really doesn't understand what it means to be alpha. In human packs, without the politics, often it's NOT the biggest or strongest one who leads. It's the one who exhibits "leadership qualities." In dog packs it's the same way. 

Another part of being alpha has to do with food. In the wild the alpha leads the hunt. He decides which animal the pack will kill and when the eating will begin. Generally you provide the food for your dog so that helps him think of you as the alpha. I suggest that when you get a new dog you spend a couple of weeks hand feeding him. That establishes, even more than just putting down a food bowl, that you're providing his food. Don't let him crowd in and 'demand' the food. Make him stay at a respectful distance and wait for you to give it to him, one handful at a time. 

Another way to be fair and just is to be fair with your correction level. The Ecollar is perfect for this because it allows you to dial in exactly the level of correction that your dog needs. Not too high and not too low. It's difficult for the average handler to consistently give the exact level of correction that a dog needs with a leash and conventional training collar. 

Play is another way to get this but not the form of play that has the handler throwing a ball for his dog. Watch the Discovery Channel or spend a few hours at the zoo watching wild dogs play. They run, they bump shoulders, they throw hips into one another. Their interaction is quite physical. 

Another way to establish dominance and one of my favorites is through yielding. I stole the concept from someone who stole it from horse trainers. Yielding is based on the idea that a submissive animal will move out of the way of a dominant animal. Almost ritualistically the dominant animal will force the submissive animal to give way, even if he doesn't need to. It's just a reminder. 

To do this have the dog on leash and start walking into him. Going head to head is probably best, at first. Don't give any commands, just head towards him. When you get real close start quietly saying "move, move, move," Don't kick him and don't bump into him unless it's absolutely necessary. What you are trying to do is to force him to move by the power of your personality. 

As soon as he does move, step back and praise him lightly. Not enough to break his concentration, but enough so that he knows he got something right. You should see a relaxation of tension in the dog's body. Think of your forward motion as applying pressure. Pressure that the dog can relieve by moving away. At first just one or two steps will relieve the pressure, but as you progress he has to move more to gain relief. 

As the training progresses you can approach from off to one side, then directly to one side, then from the rear quarter and finally from the rear. When you start this have him move several times in a row. Once he's caught on you can go to about ten times a day. 

This is so subtle that many people believe that it won't have any affect on the dog, particularly one who's very dominant. But it will have more and better effect than a dozen alpha rolls. And it will establish your position with VERY little chance of a handler challenge or an attack on the handler. 

If you're going to do an alpha roll you'd better pick the dog you do this on carefully and you'd better make sure that you can kick his ass. You'd also better be ready for a trip to the ER, because sooner or later you're going to miss. 

It's really too bad that some people are still caught up in using force all the time for all of their training. It's not necessary. It's hard on the dogs, and it's hard on the handler. AND most importantly it doesn't give a good a working relationship with the dog as more subtle, but still effective methods. 


Copyright © 2006, Lou Castle


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

*Lou Castle on the alpha presence*

This is very good, of course, but for me, I'm particularly excited to see some prominence given to these two items: The demeanor of a real pack leader (which comes long before any direct interaction with the dog) and the "yielding" (the submissive animal being reminded to yield ground to the dominant animal). 

Maybe you would like to post everything below the intro about the thread to the "Articles" part of the site.

Thanks!


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

*Re: Lou Castle on the alpha presence*



Connie Sutherland said:


> Maybe you would like to post everything below the intro about the thread to the "Articles" part of the site.


Just did. Thanks for the wake up call.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Excellent article Lou!
I'm glad you commented on the "not letting your dog stand over you". Although my GSD is social, he can be somewhat pushy with those outside the family. He's pleasantly submissive with me and my wife. He LOVES IT when I fall down, let him pounce on me and win the tug from me. There is absolutely no concern on my part about him becomming dominant with me. He just turns into a 80lb, wiggly puppy when we play that game. 
I do, however, have a pain in the a$$ JRT that will take advantage of the situation if I let him go to far. :lol: :wink:


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## Stacia Porter (Apr 8, 2006)

Okay, I'm seriously new to dog training, but reading that original post from the dog's owner I couldn't help but think, "Does this dog REALLY know his OB commands? Enough to be corrected for not obeying?" If he isn't outing objects consistently (she says he outs "wihtout too much choking out" outside of his crate, which I take to mean that he's not consistently outing without correction), does he actually know the out? Or any other command for that matter?

It just seemed to me that maybe he doesn't see his handler as a fair pack leader since she seems to be correcting for someting he may not actually know, and correcting rather aggressively (why choke out -- I take that to mean she's using a choke collar rather than a prong). Isn't part of being a pack leader maintaining your role as a fair and just leader? I know I read when my puppy was younger that you should use the least amount of correction necessary to get your point across to the dog b/c they do have a sense of justice and will see uncalled for/overly aggressive/improper correction as unfair (and that this is sometimes a source of handler aggression).

At any rate, she does have a problem...


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Stacia Porter said:


> Okay, I'm seriously new to dog training, but reading that original post from the dog's owner I couldn't help but think, "Does this dog REALLY know his OB commands? Enough to be corrected for not obeying?" If he isn't outing objects consistently (she says he outs "wihtout too much choking out" outside of his crate, which I take to mean that he's not consistently outing without correction), does he actually know the out? Or any other command for that matter?
> 
> It just seemed to me that maybe he doesn't see his handler as a fair pack leader since she seems to be correcting for someting he may not actually know, and correcting rather aggressively (why choke out -- I take that to mean she's using a choke collar rather than a prong). Isn't part of being a pack leader maintaining your role as a fair and just leader? I know I read when my puppy was younger that you should use the least amount of correction necessary to get your point across to the dog b/c they do have a sense of justice and will see uncalled for/overly aggressive/improper correction as unfair (and that this is sometimes a source of handler aggression).....At any rate, she does have a problem...


You're right, Stacia: The handler has a problem (IMO). Several members pointed out that the training tips needed to be directed to her more than the dog, and that the dog just might be a bad match for her abilities. 

After I read her actual post, I thought (along with others) that she needed professional help, in person (not on the 'net).


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

I agree with you ladies that the problem starts with the owner. Now she has a problem, right? This could have been corrected long ago.

Now back to the situation of this dog. Hindsight is 20/20 now what can be done to fix it before this dog hurts someone? Well the first thing is to find it a new owner, right. But this women has the dog so let's go with what we have.

Lou, everything you said was right on. Please don't think I'm being disrespectful or argumentive, I'm not trying to be. In your post you talked about a submissive dog vs. the alfa dog. This is not the problem we're having here. This is a 14 month old that clearly is not submissive. He doesn't respect the alfa ( human ) and is trying to take over and have things his way, dominant. If he did this to an alfa dog the alfa wouldn't put his paw on him and wait for him to lay down and become submissive. The alfa would not do a thing but kick his Butt. He would win or loose. Him being 14 months old is not to old for him to be put in his place, fairly of course. If they wait much longer they could loose this dog. This dog is not mature as of now and now is the time to use a good old fashion compulsion correction, fairly of course. What I mean by that is just enough so that he understands the pecking order. If it's on his back then so be it, what ever it takes. When this dog matures heaven help anyone that tries to deal with him.  

Ok I'll sit back and get my butt handed to me but this is how I feel about this dog.


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## Greg Long (Mar 27, 2006)

Whether the dog understands what "out" means or not doesnt matter if the dog is being a butthead.

A dog can learn the meaning of a command after just 2 or3 times if someone knows what they ae doing.

I told someone else that I would have to meet the owner in person to really make a judgement call.Just off whats been said on the net the biggest issue is the handler's lack of knowledge and lack of determination in establishing leadership.

Bottom line is , put this dog with a person that knows what to do and problem solved. :wink: 

Greg


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jerry Lyda said:


> .....This dog is not mature as of now and now is the time to use a good old fashion compulsion correction, fairly of course. What I mean by that is just enough so that he understands the pecking order. If it's on his back then so be it, what ever it takes. When this dog matures heaven help anyone that tries to deal with him.  .


But (and a big but), in the case of an alpha roll, even if there was agreement on using it (and there isn't), who does this? That owner who has zero control and no idea of how to manage the dog (from her own post)? Heck, no! Even behaviorists who do sometimes use this technique with dominant-aggressive dogs, at least the ones I read and have seen work, maintain that it's a maneuver only for the experienced professional to decide on and to administer.

From her post, it seems to me that she needs a professional no matter what the method, or tools, or correction.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Greg Long said:


> Whether the dog understands what "out" means or not doesnt matter if the dog is being a butthead....A dog can learn the meaning of a command after just 2 or3 times if someone knows what they ae doing....I told someone else that I would have to meet the owner in person to really make a judgement call.Just off whats been said on the net the biggest issue is the handler's lack of knowledge and lack of determination in establishing leadership......Bottom line is , put this dog with a person that knows what to do and problem solved. :wink: ....Greg


Sorry, Greg......We were posting at the same time!


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

I agree Connie, this lady can't, if so this problem wouldn't be. Maybe the thing for a person like this with a dog like this is to sell, or whatever, to someone that can correct this behavior. What will happen next if this keeps going on will not be good for anyone and not good for the dog / breed.
I'm through now and thanks to everyone and thanks for lending your knowledge. ( I still want to hear more though.) :lol:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jerry Lyda said:


> I agree Connie, this lady can't, if so this problem wouldn't be. Maybe the thing for a person like this with a dog like this is to sell, or whatever, to someone that can correct this behavior. What will happen next if this keeps going on will not be good for anyone and not good for the dog / breed.
> I'm through now and thanks to everyone and thanks for lending your knowledge. ( I still want to hear more though.) :lol:


Jerry, what you say here might be the solution. Of course, she'd be upfront about the issues (but it would be readily apparent anyway), and she'd have to make sure the dog went to someone with dominant-dog experience.

You think she won't go the professional-help route, I take it.

P.S. My own experience with dominant-aggressive dogs is limited. Others here are far more experienced. But I've had enough to feel that her post indicates that she probably isn't the person to handle this dog.

It's really hard from one message, though. Who knows the whole story from a post on a forum?


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Jerry Lyda said:


> This is a 14 month old that clearly is not submissive. He doesn't respect the alfa ( human ) and is trying to take over and have things his way, dominant. If he did this to an alfa dog the alfa wouldn't put his paw on him and wait for him to lay down and become submissive. The alfa would not do a thing but kick his Butt.


Only very rarely do fights occur within packs of dogs, wild or otherwise. There is much posturing and displaying of dominance and submission. Even when fights do break out they're more of a display than real. If there was a lot of real combat occurring in the species they would have died out long ago. The problem in this pack is that the supposed alpha (the owner) is not acting as an alpha, therefore the dog is trying to take over; not an unusual situation. The owner in this case can start posturing as the alpha would and can establish dominance in that way. 

Starting with food and then going to the yielding. this can be done without any open conflict that will put the owner in potential jeopardy. 



Jerry Lyda said:


> He would win or loose. Him being 14 months old is not to old for him to be put in his place, fairly of course.


He's plenty old enough to wreak havoc and hospitalize anyone who tried to roll him and wasn't successful. 



Jerry Lyda said:


> If they wait much longer they could loose this dog. This dog is not mature as of now and now is the time to use a good old fashion compulsion correction, fairly of course. What I mean by that is just enough so that he understands the pecking order. If it's on his back then so be it, what ever it takes.


I've never found it necessary with any dog of any age. It's dangerous to try this with a dog of this size and this age, particularly with someone who's never done it before. I think that putting the dog into his proper place in the pack is better accomplished with food and yielding than with violence. 



Jerry Lyda said:


> Ok I'll sit back and get my butt handed to me but this is how I feel about this dog.


Nah, disagreement is perfectly OK. If we all agreed we wouldn't have these forums to express different training ideas on.


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## Stacia Porter (Apr 8, 2006)

Jerry Lyda said:


> In your post you talked about a submissive dog vs. the alfa dog. This is not the problem we're having here. This is a 14 month old that clearly is not submissive. He doesn't respect the alfa ( human ) and is trying to take over and have things his way, dominant.


Just food for thought: is he really dominant or does he just not know where he places in the pack and is therefore trying to figure it out with his behavior? Are there other posts from this woman that elaborate on his behavior? Does possession agression always stem from dominance? Has he done other things that mark him as a dominant rather than a confused dog without a good pack leader? If he's trying to be the leader b/c his handler is not displaying proper alpha behaviors, does that still make him a dominant dog, or is there another description in that situation?

Just wondering for my own information on the topic...


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Stacia Porter said:


> ......is he really dominant or does he just not know where he places in the pack and is therefore trying to figure it out with his behavior? Are there other posts from this woman that elaborate on his behavior? Does possession agression always stem from dominance? Has he done other things that mark him as a dominant rather than a confused dog without a good pack leader? If he's trying to be the leader b/c his handler is not displaying proper alpha behaviors, does that still make him a dominant dog, or is there another description in that situation?.....Just wondering for my own information on the topic...


Obviously, I can't give you any opinions about the dog Jerry presents, never having seen him and having no knowledge of other posts, etc.

I can offer a couple of general opinions about a couple of your other questions. (I have some experience with dominant dogs, btw, but others on this board have much more.)

Dominant and aggressive are not the same thing. Possession aggression doesn't have to stem from dominance. There's lots of aggression that has nothing to do with dominance. (Not to say that it CAN'T be stemming from dominance!) A dog rescued from the streets where he's been scrounging for garbage might well exhibit a lot of food-aggression when he first has regular food, whether or not he's naturally dominant.

I think most dogs are not naturally dominant; nature doesn't work that way. But a few are, again as nature would dictate for pack animals.

But the measures which a dog who perceives that there is no strong pack leader in his pack (household) will take probably depend on the dog, on his level of dominance. 

This is something that (I believe) is apparent early on, maybe by not taking no for an answer when he wants to play, or by climbing on or acting in charge of the owner, the furniture, the toys, the activities, etc. (This is a big subject!) I believe, and again, maybe it's just less experience than others here, that treating a dominant dog with firmness from the beginning can eliminate the perceived need down the road to treat him with violence. Both Bob and Lou gave a lot of examples of ways to demonstrate your pack leadership to the dog. These actions (by the pack leader) are good, period, but when the dog demonstrates dominant tendencies, they are very important. 

Your questions about whether this dog is a born-dominant dog who hasn't been taught his position in the pack -- we can't know that from the info we have. 

I will be interested in the answers about this from people who have trained dozens (or hundreds!) of dogs. And, of course, from the ones who have trained a few, too!  

Good thread, Jerry.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote:When this dog matures heaven help anyone that tries to deal with him. 

Sorry so late, but the computer has really been torturing me, on off crappiness.
I find that in general, the person that owns this dog creates this type of dog, and are excellent people to farm pups out to, because of their lack of dominant personality. It creates puppies that are more than they really are, and their attempts to control are weak and inneffectual. 

In someone's hands like those with experience, this dog would melt and come around quickly, and not because of force, just the general way that things are done. He will relinquish his role, and come about. (generally) If not, then I will be suprised, and more than willing to help out more.

Also, the alpha roll is really a silly idea, and got a lot of people bit for no reason.

I like the use of food to get a dog to come around to my way of thinking. It is passive, and is relativly easy to withold food unless the dog is doing the right thing.

Choking is a good way to build a dogs possesiveness of the object, and not so good for teaching. I thought I saw something about doing this to get the dog off things. 

Sorry if so disjointed, but I was trying to reply the other day, and the computer was torturing me.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I find that in general, the person that owns this dog creates this type of dog, and are excellent people to farm pups out to, because of their lack of dominant personality. It creates puppies that are more than they really are, and their attempts to control are weak and inneffectual.


I was actually thinking this yesterday, but didn't feel like posting because I couldn't find the right words. I think that most of the people who have serious dominance issues don't truly have a dominant aggressive dog in the sense of a hardcore working dog that'll try to kick a strong handlers ass, but rather a dog that is a little lost and misguided.




> In someone's hands like those with experience, this dog would melt and come around quickly, and not because of force, just the general way that things are done. He will relinquish his role, and come about. (generally) If not, then I will be suprised, and more than willing to help out more.


Agreed. I think good handlers and even good pet owners never know their dominant dog is really dominant because they handle the dog appropriately. To me Cujo is a very calm and docile dog that does everything I tell him (to a point), but if I have my parents watch him I get to laugh at all the shit he pulls on them n how completely out of control he is, a side of him that I *NEVER* see. But he's harmless, so I don't have to worry about him being a danger to anyone.



> Also, the alpha roll is really a silly idea, and got a lot of people bit for no reason.


You're on a roll Jeff!... LOL, sorry, couldn't resist :lol: :lol:

Personally I would reccomend the owner of this dog go see someone who can teach her how to handle her dog, n not some crackpot trainer either, someone who knows what they're doing. She's not gonna learn the skills required online, some people have a knack for it, other people don't... you can often see this in how their human children are behaved....


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Tried to post this in the articles thread but I guess only moderators are allowed to reply to Lou's alpha article?

Anyway, I like the article, Lou. Thanks for sharing. I did want to say that the New Skete Monks do more than "drop" the reference to and endorsement of the alpha roll in later additions of their book...they pretty much say that they were dead wrong to advocate it and warn against trying it. I don't have it in front of me so I can't quote directly.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Woody Taylor said:


> Tried to post this in the articles thread but I guess only moderators are allowed to reply to Lou's alpha article?
> 
> Anyway, I like the article, Lou. Thanks for sharing. I did want to say that the New Skete Monks do more than "drop" the reference to and endorsement of the alpha roll in later additions of their book...they pretty much say that they were dead wrong to advocate it and warn against trying it. I don't have it in front of me so I can't quote directly.


No, Woody, the articles are set up to be articles, as opposed to discussions. But Lou's reply was first posted here as a response, so you **are* replying to it! :lol: 

And you are quoting the New Skete Monks pretty closely!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

*dominant-born dogs*

Well, I had this question all ready to type, but Jeff and Mike pretty much answered it.

I believe that a dog who's born dominant will not become a problem in the hands of a good pack leader owner.

I'm totally ready to accept answers like "Well, you don't have enough experience with such-and-such dogs..." and so on. 

What I base this on IS limited. It's my observation that every problem dog I've seen had a crappy handler/owner (backwards evidence, I realize), and on the relative ease I have experienced with getting submission from a pet whose owner thinks the dog is hopelessly dominant and aggressive.

These are NOT dogs who have killed, or tried to, so I have NOT had that experience. So far, though, I'm inclining toward thinking that those dogs too could have been OK in the hands of a good pack leader.

I would love to hear the opposition. I'm here to learn.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

No opposition here. You are right. The dogs that have tried to kill or are dogs that are just mean as hell, IMO not a lot of help for this dog. There is help but who wants to take this risk of REALLY getting hurt. There is an old saying," If you are going to be stupid you better be tough."


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Agree also! My one comment would be that I would much rather work with a really tough dog then one that was agressive because of serious nerve/fear issues. BOTH require a controlled environment, but I just have no use for a nerve/fear based dog.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Agree also! My one comment would be that I would much rather work with a really tough dog then one that was agressive because of serious nerve/fear issues. BOTH require a controlled environment, but I just have no use for a nerve/fear based dog.


Gotcha, Bob. I meant to be clear (but wasn't really) that I referred only to dominant dogs, and not dogs who are aggressive because of fear/nerves.


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