# Just out of interest!!



## Gillian Schuler

Our younger dog, according to breeder and experienced helper, is a talented dog. When he is biting, he often tends to raise his hair from neck to rear end. This once prompted the helper to ask us to check his health. Health ok. Has anyone experienced this? The dog is very friendly, no nerve problems, etc. He raises hair in the same manner sometimes towards the older dog who would put him in his place, if necessary.


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## Chris Michalek

The dog has a nerve problem. Work on building confidence. What kind of pressure is being put on the dog? How old is it?


Not all experienced helpers are good trainers. The last club I was in the "experienced" helper who did nothing but brag about being a national level teaching helper didn't know shit about training dogs. In fact he thought he knew so much he thought it to be a good idea to have helpers with zero experience work a dog with zero experience.

Make sure you have a good helper.

friendly doesn't alway mean it's a good working dog. good house pet? Yes. Good working dog? Maybe.


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## Bob Scott

"Generally" a sign of stress in the dog. In particular if it goes all the way to the tail.
Possibly to much defence to early? Hard to tell without seeing it.


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## Kyle Sprag

I have seen dogs do this for a whole lot of reasons, some I could identify and some not. My Pedro does this when he sees my wife....LOL He LOVES her.

If the pup is young I look at things like this as a Package deal, kinda like growling ont he bite, there is always something to pick on.

As long as the dog is not weird with stuff who cares.


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## Dick van Leeuwen

how old is your young dog? could also be a general sign of excitment he may bite, esp if he's still young and if there are a few hairs up.


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## Gillian Schuler

The German helper only mentioned the hair raising as he wanted to be sure the dog didn't have any health issues. He's good at building young dogs up. 

I can't see that the dog has nerve/stress issues in biting. He's over two now but we had to take a long break when he cut his tongue. A well known Belgian trainer was impressed with his bitework recently.

I appreciate that without seeing the dog it's not easy to give an answer. I just wondered if anyone had seen this in bitework.

I tend to think it's excitability - will let you know if he carries on doing it. 

Thanks


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## Kristen Cabe

Generally speaking, excitability tends to cause the fur right above the base of the tail to raise, but not above the shoulders. When the hackles go up over the shoulders, it's a sign of insecurity, or of just being unsure about a situation. When hackles are up from the shoulders to the tail, it can be either, or both.


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## Chris Michalek

Gillian Schuler said:


> The German helper only mentioned the hair raising as he wanted to be sure the dog didn't have any health issues. He's good at building young dogs up.
> 
> I can't see that the dog has nerve/stress issues in biting. He's over two now but we had to take a long break when he cut his tongue. A well known Belgian trainer was impressed with his bitework recently.
> 
> I appreciate that without seeing the dog it's not easy to give an answer. I just wondered if anyone had seen this in bitework.
> 
> I tend to think it's excitability - will let you know if he carries on doing it.
> 
> Thanks


Why are you denying that it's a possible nerve/confidence issue? Nobody is saying the dog is a nerve bag but hair rasied up like that is usually a sign of fear/insecurity. How was the dog raised as a pup? How long have you been doing bite work. What makes you think your helper knows how to bring up a young dog? The same thing was said about a helper my former club but anyone who watches him for awhile will tell you he can't...national level helper.....:-o

Just because a dog bites doesn't mean it doesn't have nerve issues. I have a nervey female Rott (actually much better but not suitable for work or sport) She will come hard bite the hell out of you but she'd also try to bite you the minute you turn your back, not what I call a model of stablity.


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## Gillian Schuler

What have I got to deny?

All I asked was whether anyone had seen something like this in bitework, out of interest.

As for the helpers, I'll pass on your comments......


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## susan tuck

Hi Gillian, Did your helper explain what health issues to look for? I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that this is a nerve issue since the dog is very young, very green and had a long break from work due to injury.


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## Howard Gaines III

Bob Scott said:


> "Generally" a sign of stress in the dog. In particular if it goes all the way to the tail.
> Possibly to much defence to early? Hard to tell without seeing it.


Bob but I think you missed on that one, stress, nope. Don King impression! :-o 8-[ 
Too much stress...unless the dog is a "big tease."


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## Gerry Grimwood

Chris Michalek said:


> Why are you denying that it's a possible nerve/confidence issue? Nobody is saying the dog is a nerve bag but hair rasied up like that is usually a sign of fear/insecurity.


I know this is a different species and may not apply, but if you've ever had an encounter with a bear, specifically a Grizz, they will puff up like a porcupine and I doubt that they're afraid of anyone 4 to 6 hundred lbs smaller than themselves.

I know some hackling is out of fear but I don't think it's always true.


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## Max Orsi

I agree with Kyle, if you are happy with the overall performance don’t sweat the small staff.

When someone can find a human psycho analyst that can tell me everything that goes on in a person brain by looking at how that person behaves maybe I will start believing in psycho analysis. But I will still not believe in dog psycho analysis.

With all the dog psycho analyst and expert breeders we have in the USA for some strange reason we have to keep importing dogs from Europe, even if we produce more malinois than France Belgium and Germany put together.

Have fun training

Max


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## susan tuck

Max Orsi said:


> I agree with Kyle, if you are happy with the overall performance don’t sweat the small staff.
> 
> When someone can find a human psycho analyst that can tell me everything that goes on in a person brain by looking at how that person behaves maybe I will start believing in psycho analysis. But I will still not believe in dog psycho analysis.
> 
> With all the dog psycho analyst and expert breeders we have in the USA for some strange reason we have to keep importing dogs from Europe, even if we produce more malinois than France Belgium and Germany put together.
> 
> Have fun training
> 
> Max


HUH?????    Gillian (original poster) is in Europe.


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## Bob Scott

Howard Gaines III said:


> Bob but I think you missed on that one, stress, nope. Don King impression! :-o 8-[
> Too much stress...unless the dog is a "big tease."


Don King has stressed out a LOT of people! :grin: :razz:


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## Gillian Schuler

Thanks for the input.

Susan, I couldn't find anything wrong with the dog healthwise after checking him bodily all over. He's jumped out of the top floor window more than once and just runs around in the garden as though it was nothing. Guess who now keeps the windows closed!!

Why I mentioned it, is because it doesn't match up (stresswise) with how the dog is otherwise. Nothing's fazed him since we had him at 8 weeks. My husband didn't give him any support in biting (novice) but he took it in his stride as he did the switch prey/defence. The helper showed Toni afterwards how to handle the dog but said "what he's got, he's got". Toni's been in the dog world so long I guess he thought he could handle it. He did mention he'd have his work cut out with the mouthy little monster.

I'm not worried about it but just naturally interested in something I've never encountered before. Could have been aggression??


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## Mike Scheiber

Maybe he doesn't know how to express himself :mrgreen:


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## Gillian Schuler

Yeah, I was think on these lines myself:mrgreen:


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## Laura Bollschweiler

I had a young shepherd that would raise his hairs from neck to tail when chasing a ball. No health problems. I figured he just really liked his ball. He grew out of it. When I mentioned it to a friend, she remembered a client's GSD that did the same. Again, no health problems.

There's a trait in Belgians some call "smiling," which looks like they're baring all their teeth. I think it's a submissive gesture, but who knows. If you only looked at the mouth, you might think the dog would be aggressive. I heard of a story of a Belgian about to be put down at a shelter for aggression when in fact she was just smiling...the rest of the body told the story. 

I just can't see pinning a label on a dog by hearing about one trait over the internet without knowing the rest of the story. I wouldn't sweat it if you like the rest.

Laura


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## Gillian Schuler

Thanks, good post, Laura.


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## Lisa Maze

Pilo erection (don't get excited just means hackle or hair raising) indicates arousal just as tail wagging does. Generally, it is seen in stressfully arousing situations but it is possible to see it in other situations as well. Many of the best Malinois I know exhibit caudal pilo erection during bitework when young (puffed Halloween cat tail). Any body language is a clue to the mood the dog is in but is useless taken out of context. An prime example is a "Submissive grin". If the dog's hair is up, tail is still and his body is stiff, it is a snarl. If the dog is wiggling with loose body language this retraction of the lips showing the teeth is an affiliative gesture.

So what is the rest of the dog doing? Is his body loose and free with his tail wagging excitedly? Is he giving short yips of arousal? Is his strike good and his grip calm and firm? Is he comfortable with having his feet and body touched and neutral to the stick? Is so, do not worry.

Other questions to ask are does he hackle up when you play tug with him? Is it with this helper only or others? Is it more or less pronounced in daytime vs. night time sessions? Do you ever see it when you are playing ball or other high arousal games? Does he do it while he is dragging you out onto the field? Only in close proximity to the helper? Only on the grip? Or during all three?

Pilo erection can be a sign of a back injury. Generally, the dog will pilo erect over the site of the injury. Visit a canine chiropractor as their laying on of hands can often tell you more about the dog than an entire series of X-rays. You may get a cheap diagnosis and even in young dog bite work will make them a bit out of whack so it will benefit regardless.

Lisa


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## Kadi Thingvall

Max Orsi said:


> With all the dog psycho analyst and expert breeders we have in the USA for some strange reason we have to keep importing dogs from Europe, even if we produce more malinois than France Belgium and Germany put together.


I gotta ask, where do you get your figures on this from? There are right around 200 litters of Malinois registered with AKC each year. These numbers come from 2005/2006 numbers on the AKC website, they don't have them listed for 2007 that I could find. Even if we doubled that to take into account the number of unregistered litters born per year, which I think would be pushing the numbers up a lot higher then they really are, that's not even close to the number of litters produced in France, Belgium and Germany combined. I would not be surprised to find out that France or Belgium on their own produce more litters in a year then the entire US.

As far as the OP goes, I've seen dogs that do this that were very nice dogs, and I've seen dogs that were not. IMO, like Lisa said, I think you have to look at the big picture. If there is just one piece of it that doesn't fit, I'd say the other 90% of the pieces are the ones that are probably telling the real story. But I would look at this dog closer then a dog who didn't hackle up, just to make sure I wasn't missing some other more subtle signs.


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## Max Orsi

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I gotta ask, where do you get your figures on this from? There are right around 200 litters of Malinois registered with AKC each year. These numbers come from 2005/2006 numbers on the AKC website, they don't have them listed for 2007 that I could find. Even if we doubled that to take into account the number of unregistered litters born per year, which I think would be pushing the numbers up a lot higher then they really are, that's not even close to the number of litters produced in France, Belgium and Germany combined. I would not be surprised to find out that France or Belgium on their own produce more litters in a year then the entire US.
> 
> As far as the OP goes, I've seen dogs that do this that were very nice dogs, and I've seen dogs that were not. IMO, like Lisa said, I think you have to look at the big picture. If there is just one piece of it that doesn't fit, I'd say the other 90% of the pieces are the ones that are probably telling the real story. e signs.


Kadi, the numbers were supposed to say dogs, not malinois. It was a mistake, maybe because I am always thinking about Malinois.

I don’t know why a dog heckles up and as a rule, if everything else is good, like the original poster wrote, further stating that a top trainer from Belgium was impressed by the dog, I don’t care.

Like you said, I have seen dogs heckles up that you could not chase off a bite and seen other that would not engage.

I also happen to think that the vast majority of mals and GS I get to see and work are less than mediocre dogs, with nerve issues, or weak bites and no power, or all of the above, the ones which are not nervous remind me more of a retriever than a dog that is suppose to perform protection and attack duties (Police and Military).

I would not want to own 90% of the working dogs I come in contact with, some are national and world level, and most doesn’t heckle up.

…and I see your last purchase was also an import dog, from a kennel that has a reputation of producing big, strong, powerful and fast dogs.

Could you not just buy one American dog?

The substance of my post was that all the experience less “dog wisperers” are very quick to give negative feed back to a question that cannot be answered while on line.

Safe training
Max


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## Lisa Maze

Max Orsi said:


> Kadi, the numbers were supposed to say dogs, not malinois. It was a mistake, maybe because I am always thinking about Malinois.
> 
> I don’t know why a dog heckles up and as a rule, if everything else is good, like the original poster wrote, further stating that a top trainer from Belgium was impressed by the dog, I don’t care.
> 
> Like you said, I have seen dogs heckles up that you could not chase off a bite and seen other that would not engage.
> 
> I also happen to think that the vast majority of mals and GS I get to see and work are less than mediocre dogs, with nerve issues, or weak bites and no power, or all of the above, the ones which are not nervous remind me more of a retriever than a dog that is suppose to perform protection and attack duties (Police and Military).
> 
> I would not want to own 90% of the working dogs I come in contact with, some are national and world level, and most doesn’t heckle up.
> 
> …and I see your last purchase was also an import dog, from a kennel that has a reputation of producing big, strong, powerful and fast dogs.
> 
> Could you not just buy one American dog?
> 
> The substance of my post was that all the experience less “dog wisperers” are very quick to give negative feed back to a question that cannot be answered while on line.
> 
> Safe training
> Max


Here we go again with the "European dogs are miraculously better than American dogs" thread.

As a breeder of Malinois, this gets annoying. Is adding genetic diversity to your line a crime? Does the fact I just bought a dog from France to add to my breeding program mean my dogs prior to this point were weak? Yes, he comes from a kennel known to produce big, strong fast dogs but they are also more insensitve, large and lack the hot temper I generally prefer. Does adding something to my line mean it was lacking in the first place?

Does the same apply when a breeder in France goes to Belgium to breed to a NVBK dog?

Since moving to San Antonio I have seen many imported dogs of both breeds and I am here to tell you the same kind of dogs come from both sides of the pond. The same diversity in type and temperament I see in local dog clubs is seen in the imported population. Overall, I would guess the same percentage of great dogs, good dogs and shit dogs occurs in Europe as the USA. The overall numbers in Europe are much higher which is more likely to be the reason the military buys the majority of dogs there. There are less than a dozen breeders I know of in the states who have a reputation for breeding working quality Malinois and a production record that backs that up.

Lisa

PS To clarify, I actually bought my CdH dog to save him from a life as a guard dog on a tie out. Luckily, he is good enough to warrant breeding and brings traits that while dissimilar to my current breeding lines compliment them.


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## Kadi Thingvall

Max Orsi said:


> …and I see your last purchase was also an import dog, from a kennel that has a reputation of producing big, strong, powerful and fast dogs.
> 
> Could you not just buy one American dog?


Actually, my latest purchase was a dog that was bred in Puerto Rico, from parents that were bred in PR and WA (USA). Her grandparents are imports, well 3 of them, the 4th is a US bred dog, from US/Canadian dogs. My 2nd to last purchase was also a dog bred here in the US. There is also the other dog from a US breeding. Then there is the 4th to latest purchase who was imported by someone else, and later purchased by me. Then there is the dog you mentioned, who I purchased here in the US but was imported from Europe. So since him I've purchased 4 other dogs. In between some of those purchases I also kept a number of dogs from my own breedings. Granted they aren't purchases, but they are "American".


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## Howard Gaines III

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> I had a young shepherd that would raise his hairs from neck to tail when chasing a ball. No health problems. I figured he just really liked his ball. He grew out of it. When I mentioned it to a friend, she remembered a client's GSD that did the same. Again, no health problems.
> 
> There's a trait in Belgians some call "smiling," which looks like they're baring all their teeth. I think it's a submissive gesture, but who knows. If you only looked at the mouth, you might think the dog would be aggressive. I heard of a story of a Belgian about to be put down at a shelter for aggression when in fact she was just smiling...the rest of the body told the story.
> 
> I just can't see pinning a label on a dog by hearing about one trait over the internet without knowing the rest of the story. I wouldn't sweat it if you like the rest.
> 
> Laura


Laura I have a Border Collie that smiles. She's just one happy camper, cause she's daddy's girl!


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## Max Orsi

Lisa Maze said:


> Here we go again with the "European dogs are miraculously better than American dogs" thread.
> 
> As a breeder of Malinois, this gets annoying. Is adding genetic diversity to your line a crime? Does the fact I just bought a dog from France to add to my breeding program mean my dogs prior to this point were weak? Yes, he comes from a kennel known to produce big, strong fast dogs but they are also more insensitve, large and lack the hot temper I generally prefer. Does adding something to my line mean it was lacking in the first place?
> 
> Does the same apply when a breeder in France goes to Belgium to breed to a NVBK dog?
> 
> Lisa, as I said everything I wrote is based on my personal experience and opinions,
> if you have different experience share it and if you are happy with you production good for you.
> 
> It is admirable on your part to have rescued your CdH dog, in reference to his lines they are already present and established in the States, they are line breeding on G’bibber via Nelton, Lucas and Elgos.
> 
> On a recent trip to France and Belgium I had the honor of decoying several dog at 3 different clubs, I did not have enough hands to count the dog I would have like to bring home with me, (I am not talking about the training), and I have yet to visit a club here with the same “wow” factor.
> 
> I also have a few American dogs in mind that are as good, a few less than 5, but nobody breed to some of them because of “trial scores”and ??? and because for the most part here breeders tend to breed what they have in the yard, (Just look at the website of the better known mals breeder).
> 
> Again, don’t take it personal, share your experience and let me know where the American “wow” mals are, I am always interested to check new dogs out. I don’t think my idea of a “wow” Mal is too far from yours, judging from the dogs out of your breeding you mention most of the times.
> 
> Max


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## Lisa Maze

"It is admirable on your part to have rescued your CdH dog, in reference to his lines they are already present and established in the States, they are line breeding on G’bibber via Nelton, Lucas and Elgos."

Yeah, not so much. The paper most Malinois pedigrees is written on is best saved for the day you run out of toilet paper. But this is a slippery slope so you might just want to chat with Michael Ellis on this one.

That said, it only takes a few generations of breeding from the same lines to produce a quite different result. Case in point, we imported a couple Elgos granddaughters from Appy Kamps. While nice little bitches they were nothing like the Elgos grandkids we had already. The emphasis each breeder makes in selecting dogs for desired traits can make a large difference over a relatively small period of time.

Funny to think of Villi as an Elgos dog. He is almost the opposite of what I would expect from a dog linebred on Elgos. But if he is an Elgos bred dog we might get some pretty blues when we breed him to our linebred Elgos bitches!

American dogs I think have "wow" factor...

Ludo ot Vitosha -production although I he is not my type of dog (independent) he was of good character and strong. Produce several of " the other "wow's" on this list.

Doc ot Vitosha-everything you would want in a Schutzhund dog. Fast, good grips, and very, very trainable. Prefer to have seen him bred to some "hotter" bitches

C'Jetta du Ciel Rouge-break neck speed and drive to spare

Edoc du Ciel Rouge-way not my style of dog but a wild, angry, gripping striking machine. A little loco for my personal taste but he has gotten wows from folks here and in his travels in Belgium.

Nacho du Ciel Rouge-a young up and coming dog at the club, grips to die for, trainable (for the beast he is) and a very incredible jumper.

"B" litter des Ombres Valeureux-both sired by Dexter. Saw mostly as untitled young dogs but hard to the handler, good character and crushing grips. A little too much of the "wow" that makes you jump back and check your fingers. Our litter off Bexter has no shortage of "wows" at just 3 months. I suspect he may climb up this list as he gets few more litters on the ground.

Cezzane von Schoerling-good golly the grips on this boy. Can't wait to see pups off him as his mother Gitane produce pups I like out of all three of the stud dogs she was bred to.

Jackson, Joker, Mongoose, L'Simba Loups du Soleil-can't count the "wow's" I have heard from folks with these boys. What is unique about these boys is they have been quite high scoring in their respective sports and each and everyone of them is a "real dog" meaning don't pet them.

Just a short list for the moment, I am sure others can add to it. I love the idea that Europe is full of "wow" dogs because you can never have too many of them. Personally, I will breed to the best dog for that bitch regardless of if he is in my yard or not. In fact, Michael and I only keep a few dogs at home each so we almost always breed out of the yard. 

We are all entitled to our opinions but I have lost my belief that sperm that hits eggs in Europe always makes superstar dogs. 

Lisa


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## Lisa Maze

Max,

I would love to see your list as well. It is a big country and I don't get around that much. There are more dogs on my list that are "wows" here in the states but they were not bred here (or at least I am not sure if they were).

Lisa


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## Kadi Thingvall

Max Orsi said:


> I also have a few American dogs in mind that are as good, a few less than 5, but nobody breed to some of them because of “trial scores”and ???


I'd be curious who these dogs are, I'm always curious who the "wow" dogs are that I may not have seen yet.


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## Max Orsi

Lisa Maze said:


> "It is admirable on your part to have rescued your CdH dog, in reference to his lines they are already present and established in the States, they are line breeding on G’bibber via Nelton, Lucas and Elgos."
> 
> Yeah, not so much. The paper most Malinois pedigrees is written on is best saved for the day you run out of toilet paper. But this is a slippery slope so you might just want to chat with Michael Ellis on this one.
> 
> That said, it only takes a few generations of breeding from the same lines to produce a quite different result. Case in point, we imported a couple Elgos granddaughters from Appy Kamps. While nice little bitches they were nothing like the Elgos grandkids we had already. The emphasis each breeder makes in selecting dogs for desired traits can make a large difference over a relatively small period of time.
> 
> Funny to think of Villi as an Elgos dog. He is almost the opposite of what I would expect from a dog linebred on Elgos. But if he is an Elgos bred dog we might get some pretty blues when we breed him to our linebred Elgos bitches!
> 
> American dogs I think have "wow" factor...
> 
> Ludo ot Vitosha -production although I he is not my type of dog (independent) he was of good character and strong. Produce several of " the other "wow's" on this list.
> 
> Doc ot Vitosha-everything you would want in a Schutzhund dog. Fast, good grips, and very, very trainable. Prefer to have seen him bred to some "hotter" bitches
> 
> C'Jetta du Ciel Rouge-break neck speed and drive to spare
> 
> Edoc du Ciel Rouge-way not my style of dog but a wild, angry, gripping striking machine. A little loco for my personal taste but he has gotten wows from folks here and in his travels in Belgium.
> 
> Nacho du Ciel Rouge-a young up and coming dog at the club, grips to die for, trainable (for the beast he is) and a very incredible jumper.
> 
> "B" litter des Ombres Valeureux-both sired by Dexter. Saw mostly as untitled young dogs but hard to the handler, good character and crushing grips. A little too much of the "wow" that makes you jump back and check your fingers. Our litter off Bexter has no shortage of "wows" at just 3 months. I suspect he may climb up this list as he gets few more litters on the ground.
> 
> Cezzane von Schoerling-good golly the grips on this boy. Can't wait to see pups off him as his mother Gitane produce pups I like out of all three of the stud dogs she was bred to.
> 
> Jackson, Joker, Mongoose, L'Simba Loups du Soleil-can't count the "wow's" I have heard from folks with these boys. What is unique about these boys is they have been quite high scoring in their respective sports and each and everyone of them is a "real dog" meaning don't pet them.
> 
> Just a short list for the moment, I am sure others can add to it. I love the idea that Europe is full of "wow" dogs because you can never have too many of them. Personally, I will breed to the best dog for that bitch regardless of if he is in my yard or not. In fact, Michael and I only keep a few dogs at home each so we almost always breed out of the yard.
> 
> We are all entitled to our opinions but I have lost my belief that sperm that hits eggs in Europe always makes superstar dogs.
> 
> Lisa


Most of the “wow” dogs you mention are the product of two or one imported dogs, therefore do not qualify as the work of an American breedings, you have to give me at least a couple of generations before taking credit for someone else work.

I know the malinois paperwork is worth nothing, which is why I did not mention it; I am talking about real origins which are well known if you know where to ask and when you start developing one “eye” easy to distinguish.

For the list “partially” American breed malinois, you can email me privately, I don’t want to offend someone I respect, train with, or I am friend with by not mentioning their dogs.
Some are already on your list.

I don’t’ believe on any magic sperm either, I have had my share of POS coming from the other side, but I just give you an example of my own visit to 3 different clubs with very, very nice dogs, which I can say I was able to find in any clubs here.

Later

Max


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## Lisa Maze

Not really getting the "partially" American dog thing as breeding is putting two dogs together regardless of their origins. Ever hear America referred to as the "Melting Pot" What is American culture other than a blending of other cultures? To me this blending of European lines is uber-American. If you are born here in the States you are American regardless of the country of origin of your parents...same goes with dogs. And if putting a European bred dog on another Eurpopean dog was so easy and was "taking credit for others work" we should have a lot better dogs here, correct? 

If each country has to use exclusively dogs from their own country to call is a "French" bred dog or a "Belgium" bred dog I think many of the "wow" dogs would be knocked off of your list as well regardless of which country you saw them in. Why is it so different that an American breeder goes to Belgium for a stud dog than a French breeder doing the same? 

Lisa


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## Max Orsi

Lisa Maze said:


> Not really getting the "partially" American dog thing as breeding is putting two dogs together regardless of their origins. Ever hear America referred to as the "Melting Pot" What is American culture other than a blending of other cultures? To me this blending of European lines is uber-American. If you are born here in the States you are American regardless of the country of origin of your parents...same goes with dogs. And if putting a European bred dog on another Eurpopean dog was so easy and was "taking credit for others work" we should have a lot better dogs here, correct?
> 
> If each country has to use exclusively dogs from their own country to call is a "French" bred dog or a "Belgium" bred dog I think many of the "wow" dogs would be knocked off of your list as well regardless of which country you saw them in. Why is it so different that an American breeder goes to Belgium for a stud dog than a French breeder doing the same?
> 
> Lisa


My original statement was: “With all the dog psycho analyst and expert breeders we have in the USA for some strange reason we have to keep importing dogs from Europe”.

Therefore no imported dog should apply to this American “experts” conversation, if you admit you have to import to the ”melting pot” you just confirm my statement.

All the basic lines, Arat, Flap, Muscronnais, Grobber are already here, with judicious work a breeder should be capable of producing all kinds of dog oxygenating here and there with an import.

I will answer you PM later from work

I got to go now

Max


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## Lisa Maze

Look forward to reading your list. I do have to disagree with your definition of an American bred dog. Looks like you do not differentiate between American bred and American line. I still do not see how French breeder going to Belgium is different from one from the USA doing the same. 

Add to that your assertion that there are few "wow" dogs here what would be the logic of breeding up from sh** instead of going to the best dog available from the same foundation lines you mention? While I do celebrate the fourth of July I am not an extremist when it comes to "buy American" nor do I feel any desire to reinvent the wheel. We follow the European working dog model to produce the type of dogs we like to work. Does that make us non-patriotic American breeders? Wanna be European breeders? Seems like a silly distinction as a good dog is still a good dog regardless of where it from and sh** is still sh** no matter which country you step in it in. 

Lisa


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## Max Orsi

Lisa Maze said:


> Look forward to reading your list. I do have to disagree with your definition of an American bred dog. Looks like you do not differentiate between American bred and American line. I still do not see how French breeder going to Belgium is different from one from the USA doing the same.
> 
> Add to that your assertion that there are few "wow" dogs here what would be the logic of breeding up from sh** instead of going to the best dog available from the same foundation lines you mention? While I do celebrate the fourth of July I am not an extremist when it comes to "buy American" nor do I feel any desire to reinvent the wheel. We follow the European working dog model to produce the type of dogs we like to work. Does that make us non-patriotic American breeders? Wanna be European breeders? Seems like a silly distinction as a good dog is still a good dog regardless of where it from and sh** is still sh** no matter which country you step in it in.
> 
> Lisa


OK Lisa, let me try one last time. Either My English is worst than I thought or your understanding is a little fogged.

Some one came to this board to ask about a dog heckles during bite work.

A couple of “Dog whisperers” (From the old US of A) reply, without sugarcoating it,
“Your dog is a nervy POS and your decoy doesn’t know shyt”.

Some one else from the Nederland reply “the dog could be just excited”

I reply, to point out the rudeness and clear lack of experience, that “in the US everybody is a Dog Psycho analyst, the best trainer and breeder, that is why after all the years of breeding working dogs we still have to import.

Are we still together??

I never said that all European breeders breed perfect dogs or that you have to breed to Shytty dogs.

I said the ancestral lines, of Malinois, have been in the country for many years, and some very good dogs, some of the best, have been imported here.

If the Breeders (plural) had been more diligent in the work we shouldn’t have to keep importing as much as we do. 
It takes more than putting 2 dogs together.

The reputable European breeders keep producing dogs that have specific characteristics. I don’t need to advertise kennel names, everybody that is in to malinois knows the names.

Because they line breed, they study complementary lines and because they work toward specific goals, which are very different from breeder to breeder, and breed to what they believe fit best their goals.

They breed or import from other reputable breeder that live near by, but work primarily with their established lines.

Nothing to do with patriotism.

If I still could not make myself clear we are just going to agree to disagree.

Later

Max


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## Mike Scheiber

I'm not giving answer or sole reason but geographic is really a big wall in bite sports and breeding in the US I will use the working lines GSD as a example my breed and my sport Schutzhund. 
The working lines GSD started being somewhat prevalent in the US after WWII and Schutzhund in the early 70's. Just now the last 5 or 10 years there has become some quality breeders breeding world class dogs here with good consistency.
I really can't speak about the Malinois but I have been training in Schutzhund coming up on 15 years and the first 7 I only watched one Mal compete in Schutzhund and the other was in a police car.
I will step out and let the Malinois people reply.


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## Lisa Maze

Okay Max,

I agree many inexperienced dog people speak like they are experts and often are the first to give extreme and judgemental advice. I also agree there are many people in the USA breeding Malinois and very few "breeders" even if you use a very liberal definition of the word. As I said, less than a dozen and only half of those fit my definition of a breeder. I agree we have a long way to go but I disagree we should be doing it by using only dogs currently in the USA. 

I may not fit your idea of an "American" breeder as all of our foundation dogs grandparents were imports but I do know that we have established a line and a type overall. One of the biggest compliments I get is "you can recognize a LdS dog". This means a lot as it has taken 12 plus years to get to that point. It also means we havbe begun to back ourselves into a corner genetically. So we look for dogs who are either the same type or a complimentary type to our lines with some diversification genetically. 

Since I agree with your assertion that there are may folks breeding Malinois and few actual breeders, I feel I have little choice but look out of the country for breeding options. There are a few breeders I really respect and who are breeding dogs I like but they are in the same place we are so have dogs whose parents or grandparents are imports.

So yes, I guess I do understand what you are saying and yes overall I agree with the exception of somehow using imported dogs in my pedigrees makes me less of an American breeder. 

Lisa
.


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## Julie Blanding

Lisa Maze said:


> Doc ot Vitosha-everything you would want in a Schutzhund dog. Fast, good grips, and very, very trainable. Prefer to have seen him bred to some "hotter" bitches
> 
> Cezzane von Schoerling-good golly the grips on this boy. Can't wait to see pups off him as his mother Gitane produce pups I like out of all three of the stud dogs she was bred to.
> Lisa


I have seen both of these dogs work. "wow" is what I was saying, unless I was just standing there with my mouth wide open!

I still remember the 1st time I saw Cezzane, what an incredible dog. I hear he is for sale. Ran into Meredith a couple of weeks ago and she doesn't have the time to train him. Too bad I don't have the $$ and space! Maybe by now someone has already gotten lucky enough to purchase him. 

Julie


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## Erik Berg

Isn´t the working malinois a quite new breed in US, and small, so it´s hard to breed and find enough good dogs within US, which aren´t of similar lines? And how many generations of mostly "homebreed" dogs is taken before we can call a dog descending of german or frenchlines for example?
It´s similar in Sweden I suppose, the mal come here in early 90s, there are now some dogs that have 3-4generations of swedish breed dogs at least on one side of the pedigree, but don´t know if this is enough to then call them "Swedish lines", and imports are still used because the genetic diversity is to small if the few breeders of working mals should only use native breed dogs I suppose.

But I also wonder why breeder feels the need to import all the time, at least in a larger breed like the working GSD, if breeders had been more carefully in the past I guess there wouldn´t be need for new blood and countinue to import, especially when the lines are alreday present in the country and imports have been done quite much. Maybe it´s the syndrom of thinking te grass is greener on the other side.


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## susan tuck

Erik Berg said:


> But I also wonder why breeder feels the need to import all the time, at least in a larger breed like the working GSD, if breeders had been more carefully in the past I guess there wouldn´t be need for new blood and countinue to import, especially when the lines are alreday present in the country and imports have been done quite much. Maybe it´s the syndrom of thinking te grass is greener on the other side.


The GSD that is popular in the USA is NOT the working line dog. The american line dogs are not used or bred for work, they are a show dog. They really don't even resemble working line dogs. The german high lines are gaining popularity but still, no one would confuse them with a working dog. Geographically the USA is huge, working line breeders are spread thin and even trials are relatively few and far between compared to europe. People who breed and want to have their dogs breed surveyed usually have to travel great distances. People that do sport are willing to pay for and have more faith in the european working lines. Some kennels in the USA are developing their own lines but that takes some time and for now, the proven lines are primarily eurpoean lines.

It will be interesting to see what happens if the costs to import dogs here and fly dogs to europe continue to escalate.


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## Erik Berg

I was thinking of my own country for example, or the czech dogs, where their own working GSD lines sems to be more mixed with german dogs nowadays. If new blood is countinously needed for genetic diversity something must be wrong, or?


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## Catalina Valencia

Howard Gaines III said:


> Laura I have a Border Collie that smiles. She's just one happy camper, cause she's daddy's girl!


I had a Border who used to do that, usually when I was returning to home. A submissive gesture on her greeting.


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