# New Spay/Neuter Study



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

This popped up on FB today. I haven't read it but thought I'd share just in case its meaningful. The study looked at the effects of spay/neuter when performed prior to 12 months and afterwards in Golden Retrievers..


Read the full article: http://ow.ly/hI3CR


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

There have been a few nice articles written on the subject since the study was released.

http://www.gaylewatkins.com/breedin...-the-health-effects-of-spaying-and-neutering/

http://news.ucdavis.edu/search/news_detail.lasso?id=10498#.URwUvewzQjs.facebook

and the study itself:
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0055937


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## James Kotary (Nov 14, 2012)

Personally I will not do to my dogs what I will not do to myself. I find it interesting the research done and the thinking about how it can effect the dog's growth and development. I only scanned the articles at the moment but will definitely give a second longer look later on tonight. 
Thank you for posting these articles!


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I neutered my dog at 8 years old due to enlarged prostate. He was doing great until that point.

It has been downhill ever since culminating in a large deep tumor across his shoulder blade and we are not sure what it is but the vet specialist said not much point in doing a biopsy because the arm would have to come off to remove the tumor. Not for a 9.5 year old dog with a wonky back ... no...so pred and pain meds and whatever time left that is good enough.

FWIW they did ultraounds and his prostate. Still enlarged. [no signs of cancer activity on his internal organs though but a granular spleen]

-----

Did the neuter precipitate the downhill slide or was it just part of the whole sequence -- I don't know but if we get prostrate problems down the road with Beau I will be looking for other options.

EDIT-Not looking for a sympathy thread...I have the tears and violins on FB ..... just a comment that things sure went downhill after the neuter though I do have to say that I neutered another male years ago when he was 3 and he lived to 15 with hardly a problem until bad spondylosis at the end.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> I neutered my dog at 8 years old due to enlarged prostate. He was doing great until that point.
> 
> It has been downhill ever since culminating in a large deep tumor across his shoulder blade and we are not sure what it is but the vet specialist said not much point in doing a biopsy because the arm would have to come off to remove the tumor. Not for a 9.5 year old dog with a wonky back ... no...so pred and pain meds and whatever time left that is good enough.
> 
> ...


 
Nancy, I've experienced the same thing with mine after spay/neuter--downward spiral. Have felt for awhile that it different make much difference either before 12 months or later in life as to repercussions.

T


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Sorry, but I am still to experience any downward spiral what so ever. I spay and neuter all my dogs and they have always lived long, healthy lives with very few medical problems. Certainly nothing serious. I havent yet lost an old dog before 15 -17 years old and we have had a lot of dogs. 

This experience is shared by many friends who all spey and neuter. 

Many of them are agility dogs or owned by very active owners and they remain active and healthy till a ripe old age. None of them are overwieght.

The only 3 dogs we have had unneutered one suffered from phantom pregnancies continuously untill we speyed her and one male was lost when shot by a neighbour after escaping after a bitch on heat, the third had an emergency spay after pyometra. 

These days all my bitches are spayed before 12 months and all males are done at around 2 yo as are many of my friends dogs. 

I also know quite a lot of unneutered dogs and they certainly dont appear to live any longer or are any healthier than the neutered dogs. 

Perhaps it is the breeds I am associated with where health problems and orthopedic problems are generally low if a healthy weight and lifestyle are maintained and breeding stock is screened and healthy.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> I neutered my dog at 8 years old due to enlarged prostate. He was doing great until that point.
> 
> It has been downhill ever since culminating in a large deep tumor across his shoulder blade and we are not sure what it is but the vet specialist said not much point in doing a biopsy because the arm would have to come off to remove the tumor. Not for a 9.5 year old dog with a wonky back ... no...so pred and pain meds and whatever time left that is good enough.
> 
> ...


Nancy if he was doing great up to the point before you neutered him why did you neuter him? The initial problem occured as an entire dog not as a neutered dog. Would the problem have originally occurred if he was neutered, who knows.

It is a big call to blame his decline on neutering as the whole sequence may already have been in motion. I have had friends neuter their older dog after testicular cancer was discovered and he did fine with no following problems at all.

I think there is a lot of good imformation out there but it always amuses me slightly when people race to blame any health problems that occur after neutering on neutering. In some cases they may be right but in many other cases I doubt it is that simple especially as the dog was neutered following a condition initiated as an entire dog.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Sara Waters said:


> Sorry, but I am still to experience any downward spiral what so ever. I spay and neuter all my dogs and they have always lived long, healthy lives with very few medical problems. Certainly nothing serious. I havent yet lost an old dog before 15 -17 years old and we have had a lot of dogs.
> 
> This experience is shared by many friends who all spey and neuter.
> 
> ...


I don't recall yours being without healthh problems.


T


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Sara Waters said:


> Nancy if he was doing great up to the point before you neutered him why did you neuter him?


She explained that right after she said she neutered him. Enlarged prostate.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Nicole Stark said:


> She explained that right after she said she neutered him. Enlarged prostate.


I thought neutering a dog was not supposed to help or prevent prostate problems and in fact could lead to increased protate problems. Isnt that what the research says? I wasnt sure why neutering was then supposed to help when prostate problems occured


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I don't recall yours being without healthh problems.
> 
> 
> T


Not sure what you mean? I have had very few health problems. I have had ED diagnosed in an entire bitch, same entire bitch had a congential urinary incontinence problem that I thought not speying might help but it didnt and she got pyometra after her first heat so she had an emergency spey. No further problems but she has been on propalin since she was 10 weeks old, nothing to do with speying. ED is mild and she is now 5 and I trial RallyO with her.

One dog with a very straight stifle that had cruciate problems, now rising 13 and still fit and healthy and active, my mums rescue ex breeding bitch speyed at age 8 diagnosed with soft tissue sarcoma at age 14 and still going strong, now over 15. One dog with very mild HD diagnosed when I did hip scans at 12 months old. He was neutered at age 2 and I have never had any further problems, he is currently one of my best agility dogs. No problems with any other dog.

Am I missing something? Nothing there that I could directly attribute to neutering.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Nicole Stark said:


> She explained that right after she said she neutered him. Enlarged prostate.


 
Sorry Nicole it just doest seem logical to me. What happens when a neutered dog has prostate problems?

Or does neutering prevent prostate problems in the first place. I thought not.

I know most people on this site are not in favour of neutering and speying and I should acknowledge this and keep out of the discussions. Just some of what gets said is not always logical to me. I love my dogs and the live a pretty darn good life out here. If I thought neutering was casuing them serious problems I would review the situation, but I know plenty of entire and neutered dogs in my life and just cant see anything significant that would cause me to be concerned.

I have a couple of friends that breed or own Rotties and they dont neuter their dogs and they have had cruciate problems, osteosarcoma and other cancers. They always seem to be having some disaster. Just makes me wonder is all.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Sara Waters said:


> I thought neutering a dog was not supposed to help or prevent prostate problems and in fact could lead to increased protate problems. Isnt that what the research says? I wasnt sure why neutering was then supposed to help when prostate problems occured


Standard protocol with vets is to suggest neutering [decreasing testosterone] with prostate issues. And yes, research has shown that I believe you have just as much an issue in the neutered population, if not more so, than the intact population.

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Sara Waters said:


> Sorry Nicole it just doest seem logical to me. What happens when a neutered dog has prostate problems?
> 
> Or does neutering prevent prostate problems in the first place. I thought not.
> 
> ...


Rotties are known for all the things you mention. Its not that all intact dogs are healthy or not predisposed to certain issues as opposed to neutered/spayed animals. I see neuter/spay as an exacerbating factor--enough that its not worth it in a male dog and possibly in a female.

T


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Rotties are known for all the things you mention. Its not that all intact dogs are healthy or not predisposed to certain issues as opposed to neutered/spayed animals. I see neuter/spay as an exacerbating factor--enough that its not worth it in a male dog and possibly in a female.
> 
> T


Yes I can see that in a male dog. I wasnt going to neuter mine this time round, but specific conditions out here makes it a safer choice and I did wait till they matured. Having owned neutered males before and never having had a problem it wasnt a choice that filled me with concern.

Females I think I will always spey never really having had an issue with this choice in my time of owning dogs. 

For me there are so many other factors that are important to the health of ones dogs like genetics, diet, exercise, weight, stucture to name a few, and spey/ neuter studies often dont account for interactions with other variables that could be significantly influencing the results. Just tends to leave me wondering on what the most important factors really are. I am sure that spay/neutering has effects, but to what level I have never really read a really definitve well structured piece of work that has delved into all the factors and done multivariate analysis. I guess that would be big budget research.

In Human studies there are so many different angles. We mess with our endocrine systems on many levels, some to our benefit some maybe not. 

Nuns have a significantly higher rate of ovarian and breast cancers because they dont reproduce. Taking the contraceptive pill we know lessens the risk of ovarian cancer in women that dont have multiple children. Breast cancer also has all sorts of risk profiles depending on child status and age of child bearing status and if you breast feed or not, take the pill, diet etc. Profile risk may change with family history, ethnicity, diet, environmental locations, level of hormone mimicing chemicals in the environment. Same with some other cancers and health problems.

I guess we just make the best choices we can for both ourselves and our dogs and that is going to vary I think depending on experience and how we interpret the data. I just take a slightly different view from many on this site based on the no problem experience with my dogs and many others I have known and my slightly sceptical view on the way a lot of the research has been done.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Standard protocol with vets is to suggest neutering [decreasing testosterone] with prostate issues. And yes, research has shown that I believe you have just as much an issue in the neutered population, if not more so, than the intact population.
> 
> T


Well I have never had a dog with prostate problems, but if I do I wonder what the approach will be to my neutered boys.

How do men deal with prostate problems which are apparently very common in the older male, I cant imagine them lining up for castration and reducing testosterone levels too willingly. LOL


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Standard protocol with vets is to suggest neutering [decreasing testosterone] with prostate issues. And yes, research has shown that I believe you have just as much an issue in the neutered population, if not more so, than the intact population.
> 
> T


Yes that is exactly why the vet suggested neutering. The vet who made the suggestion also said the risk of prostate cancer was higher in neutered dogs than intact dogs but testicular cancer was higher in intact dogs (well, d..uh on that one) and was not on the neuter all the dogs bandwagon.

An any regard the enlarged prostate was causing severe constipation....and it did improve, but it is still enlarged. I would have to drag out the old ultrasound [the one we just did was looking for cancer on internal organs] to compare size.....they just noted the prostate was smooth, enlarged, with a calcification.

EDIT

My grandfather actually died from prostate cancer in the 1970s and they did remove his testicles as I recall. I am not sure they were doing much else back then


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Yes that is exactly why the vet suggested neutering. The vet who made the suggestion also said the risk of prostate cancer was higher in neutered dogs than intact dogs but testicular cancer was higher in intact dogs (well, d..uh on that one) and was not on the neuter all the dogs bandwagon.
> 
> An any regard the enlarged prostate was causing severe constipation....and it did improve, but it is still enlarged. I would have to drag out the old ultrasound [the one we just did was looking for cancer on internal organs] to compare size.....they just noted the prostate was smooth, enlarged, with a calcification.
> 
> ...


You might try researching Saw Palmetto. I think the theory is that it takes some time after neutering for the shrinkage to occur. Has it shrunk enough for the constipation to resolve?


T


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Still wondering how they treat neutered dogs for prostate problems!

In the summary of the research done on spey /neutering studies they made reference to the fact that neutered animals tend to be heavier, and I believe this, although it is easily managed, but many people dont.

It also said that research found that n/s were at higher risk of cruciate problems (which is often linked to obesity). So if you keep your neutered dogs lean what is the risk of cruciate problems or other ortho problems and the summary correctly stated that this had not been factored out. 

The fact that n/s dogs are on average heavier and have greater quantity of fat could result in many problems. Dogs deliberately kept entire may also be of better quality in regards to structure and may be managed better in regards to diet and exercise. 

None of this is ever satisfactorily teased out in these studies. I would like to see dogs of equal quality, similar diets and exercise status and weight across each breed matched up.

Maybe I havent seen the problems because my dogs are lean and fit, have good diets and for the most part come from good working stock. The more problematical ones have come from more debateable breeding stock.

I am not on any bandwagon other than that of good science and experimental design.


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## Yash Agrawal (Feb 5, 2012)

Pl. note that neutering will not cause HD or cancer in all cases, its only that the risk increases. The study is based on studying a lot of dogs. Individual experiences based on owning a few dogs, or even tens of dogs is not going to be statistically meaningful. Thanks


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Yash Agrawal said:


> Pl. note that neutering will not cause HD or cancer in all cases, its only that the risk increases. The study is based on studying a lot of dogs. Individual experiences based on owning a few dogs, or even tens of dogs is not going to be statistically meaningful. Thanks


A lot of the research I have read is based on surveying a sample of owners, mind you sample sizes were not always that big. 

My beef is that other factors were often not considered as I described in the post above. 

Are the ortho and cancer risk increases a result of the spey neuter or that the s/n dogs tend to be overweight and obesity is increasing the risk. We know that increasing weight results in an increase in certain cancers in humans.

Over here it usually the best quality dogs that are kept entire and many others are neutered, how much will that affect the results. We know that genetic factors increase the liklihood of HD and ED.

There are many confounding factors that need to be considered. I do agricultural research and see it often if trials arent very well planned and everything except what you are testing for basaled out.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Sara Waters said:


> A lot of the research I have read is based on surveying a sample of owners, mind you sample sizes were not always that big.
> 
> My beef is that other factors were often not considered as I described in the post above.
> 
> ...


 
Sara,

For someone who insists on studies, you want to discount this one on a factor that hasn't been studied. Where in dogs do we have obesity as being a cause for increased cancer? You need a study of obesity/intact vs. obesity/neutered to see if the risk increase is the same? Or you need to know whether any of the neutered animals used in the current study were not obese? 

T


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Sara,
> 
> For someone who insists on studies, you want to discount this one on a factor that hasn't been studied. Where in dogs do we have obesity as being a cause for increased cancer? You need a study of obesity/intact vs. obesity/neutered to see if the risk increase is the same? Or you need to know whether any of the neutered animals used in the current study were not obese?
> 
> T


I dont insist on studies, I would rather one well designed research project than hundreds of studies that leave one wondering. 

In the summary of all the research that has been done that was evaulated in a report that was posted on this site, the conclusion was that it was hard to determine if cruciate injuries were a result of the s/n or a result of the s/n dogs as a sample being heavier than the entire dogs, which they tend to be (one of the results).

My question is yes if the comparison of any of this was made between animals of similar breeding, diet and weight and the only variable was s/n what would be the outcome.

We grow all our seed for crop comparison variety trials under the same conditions before it hits the field for field comparison trails. The reason being we know that seed origin can significantly affect the yield results. 

I see people who dont understand this, doing field comparison trials in the same paddock with seed sourced from different origins and they will never know how much that seed origin affected the final yield results, yet they happily quote the results.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> You might try researching Saw Palmetto. I think the theory is that it takes some time after neutering for the shrinkage to occur. Has it shrunk enough for the constipation to resolve?
> 
> 
> T


Yes but that is something we could have done pre neuter
The dog is "prone" to constipation but I was surprised to see over one year post neuter he still had enlarged prostate.

As is he has cancer (not prostate) and at this point we are just keeping him comfortable and the ultrasound was to see if it had gotten to the internal organs (it had not, but the still-enlarged prostate was noted)

It would be good to know what measures would be taken to ensure reproductive system health for an intact dog who is NOT regularly bred. I know when we wanted to breed Grim, we tested his semen and he was shooting blanks - vet said that is common (don't use it you loose it) kind of thing. ........


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Yes but that is something we could have done pre neuter
> The dog is "prone" to constipation but I was surprised to see over one year post neuter he still had enlarged prostate.
> 
> As is he has cancer (not prostate) and at this point we are just keeping him comfortable and the ultrasound was to see if it had gotten to the internal organs (it had not, but the still-enlarged prostate was noted)
> ...


I started making a habit of putting my older males, 7-8 on Saw Palmetto. I'm surpised too regarding the enlargement but I haven't seen anything regarding time for shrinkage. Sorry to hear about the cancer. 


T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Yes but that is something we could have done pre neuter
> The dog is "prone" to constipation but I was surprised to see over one year post neuter he still had enlarged prostate.
> 
> As is he has cancer (not prostate) and at this point we are just keeping him comfortable and the ultrasound was to see if it had gotten to the internal organs (it had not, but the still-enlarged prostate was noted)
> ...


I started making a habit of putting my older males, 7-8 on Saw Palmetto. I'm surpised too regarding the enlargement but I haven't seen anything regarding time for shrinkage. Sorry to hear about the cancer. 


T


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

Sara Waters said:


> Still wondering how they treat neutered dogs for prostate problems!


Only dog I had to neuter was an APBT, around 18 months (shelter required it), ended up with prostate cancer. The vet did nothing and offered nothing but drugs to keep him comfortable until I had to put him down. He also blew his crutiate out on a hike before the prostate problems, but he was anything but overweight. He hiked almost the entire Pacific Crest Trail with me.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Sara, in neutered dogs they might use Megace. They will also do this with intact dogs when the owner desires not to neuter.

If it's cancer, there is always chemotherapy and radiation.

In people we do the same thing. Except instead of castrating we just remove the prostate and put them on meds the rest of their lives. Not really a viable option with dogs.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Research found that BAD owners who are "adjusted" have a better chance of not producing offspring with the same bad behaviors! 

Not spaying or neutering any of my working animals!


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Katie Finlay said:


> Sara, in neutered dogs they might use Megace. They will also do this with intact dogs when the owner desires not to neuter.
> 
> If it's cancer, there is always chemotherapy and radiation.
> 
> In people we do the same thing. Except instead of castrating we just remove the prostate and put them on meds the rest of their lives. Not really a viable option with dogs.


Thanks, I dont know what Megace is but I hope I never have to find out. So far I have been lucky and never had to experience cancer in my own dogs. Evil disease.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Brian McQuain said:


> Only dog I had to neuter was an APBT, around 18 months (shelter required it), ended up with prostate cancer. The vet did nothing and offered nothing but drugs to keep him comfortable until I had to put him down. He also blew his crutiate out on a hike before the prostate problems, but he was anything but overweight. He hiked almost the entire Pacific Crest Trail with me.


My experiences with blown cruciates has usually been either in dogs with a weight problem or dogs of a heavier build with very straight stifles regardless of neuter status. None of the agility Border collies I know have ever blown a cruciate and probably more than 80% of them are neutered.

Sorry to hear about your boy, but if you got him from a shelter he sounds like he had a great life with you hiking the trails!


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Sara Waters said:


> My experiences with blown cruciates has usually been either in dogs with a weight problem or dogs of a heavier build with very straight stifles regardless of neuter status. None of the agility Border collies I know have ever blown a cruciate and probably more than 80% of them are neutered.
> 
> Sorry to hear about your boy, but if you got him from a shelter he sounds like he had a great life with you hiking the trails!


While I appreciate your anecdotal experiences, it really doesn't negate the UC Davis study. By the way, I know of 2 neutered border collies who do agility and blew cruciate ligaments.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Brian McQuain said:


> Only dog I had to neuter was an APBT, around 18 months (shelter required it), ended up with prostate cancer. The vet did nothing and offered nothing but drugs to keep him comfortable until I had to put him down. He also blew his crutiate out on a hike before the prostate problems, but he was anything but overweight. He hiked almost the entire Pacific Crest Trail with me.


You and your dog hiked the Pacific Crest Trail? Wow, that's a hell of a feat! I bet you have some stories to tell. For those who don't know, the Pacific Crest Trail is more than 2600 miles from Mexico to Canada.
=D>=D>=D>


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

susan tuck said:


> While I appreciate your anecdotal experiences, it really doesn't negate the UC Davis study. By the way, I know of 2 neutered border collies who do agility and blew cruciate ligaments.


I think that with the wealth of data that the UC Davis study had access to I am surprised that they didnt analyse the data further to see if they could pull up further assocations and realtionships. I also note that they failed to mention breast cancer and other reproductive system diseases, which gives it a slightly one sided flavour.

I am sure Border collies do blow cruciates, one of my friends entire male BC blew both of his. He wasnt an agility dog. He is the only one I know of and his structure was less than optimal and he was carrying a bit of weight as an older dog. A friend of mine is a dog physio and she has yet to treat a BC with cruicate problems.

When I read the early studies done by Chris Zink she suggested that the dog could be more suseptible to cruciate injuries when neutered early before maturity. Without the sex hormones the dog tends to mature more slowly, bones grow a little longer before the growth plates clos and the reletive rates that the various bones grow may be afffected reletive to each other.

This would suggest that it is dogs neutered early that are likely to be affected, not ones neutered post maturity as their bones would have matured in the correct way.

As I say I wish the uc study had looked deeper in to their data and that may have potentially come up with recommendations for people who want to neuter their animals for whatever reason. I personally wait for their growth plates to close before I do mine nowadays. Although I havent had problems in the past.

There were a few anomalies in that for one condition cant remember which -later spayed dogs were more suseptible than early neutered or entire dogs. Nice to have dug a bit deeper and may have uncovered some mitigating circumstances.

I am certainly not agaisnt the study, I just wanted to know more, in more depth.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Marta Wajngarten said:


> There have been a few nice articles written on the subject since the study was released.
> 
> http://www.gaylewatkins.com/breedin...-the-health-effects-of-spaying-and-neutering/
> 
> ...


Thanks Terrasita for starting this thread and thanks Marta for the direct links to the UC Davis article. It's certainly eye opening.

I will continue to leave my animals intact.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Sara Waters said:


> I think that with the wealth of data that the UC Davis study had access to I am surprised that they didnt analyse the data further to see if they could pull up further assocations and realtionships. I also note that they failed to mention breast cancer and other reproductive system diseases, which gives it a slightly one sided flavour.


Sara, I think a lot of the limitations of these studies has to do with a lack of funding. 

Also, it's always best to study one issue at a time. Too many variables and complications happen when you look at more than one or two problems. Each problem needs it's own separate hypothesis, study, etc.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Katie Finlay said:


> Sara, I think a lot of the limitations of these studies has to do with a lack of funding.
> 
> Also, it's always best to study one issue at a time. Too many variables and complications happen when you look at more than one or two problems. Each problem needs it's own separate hypothesis, study, etc.


Exactly. With regards to cancer, the study focused on 3 specific types of tumors, I think suggesting the study is somehow biased or incomplete just because it didn't include all types of cancers as well as all types of reproductive disease is....well...to put it bluntly...a bit of a reach!
:lol:


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

susan tuck said:


> You and your dog hiked the Pacific Crest Trail? Wow, that's a hell of a feat! I bet you have some stories to tell. For those who don't know, the Pacific Crest Trail is more than 2600 miles from Mexico to Canada.
> =D>=D>=D>


 
Back when I was single, I had nothin but time. And energy. A wolf hybrid I was working with at the time came along for the hiking too. Amazing experience and, yep, many stories.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

susan tuck said:


> Exactly. With regards to cancer, the study focused on 3 specific types of tumors, I think suggesting the study is somehow biased or incomplete just because it didn't include all types of cancers as well as all types of reproductive disease is....well...to put it bluntly...a bit of a reach!
> :lol:


As a person who doesnt s/n their dogs dont you want to know about the reproductive cancers and problems? to give you more balance information. You have already decided not to s/n so you are proabaly just happy to read about any evidence that supports this choice. As a person who netuers their dogs I would like more information on both options so I can weigh it all up. I also like good science and things are complex and a conclusion cant always be based on single factor analysis, that is why we have multivariate analysis techniques.

I think that you cannot just look at things in isolation. For example previous research has shown that weight and structure can influence cruciate problems. We know that there is a tendency for s/n dogs to be overweight as research also shows this. So to come to correct conclusions about cruciate problems, they need to pull from the data the s/n age, weight of the dogs and also potentially the structure as often it is the best dogs that are kept intact. We also know that age of s/n will potentially influence this problem.

To come out with a blanket conclusion that s/n is the cause of cruciate problems is quite frankly potentially misleading.

A friend of mine is an orthovet of 30 years and he tells me that weight, structure, build and breed has a large bearing on the animals he has done cruciate repairs on and he has done a great many.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Katie Finlay said:


> Sara, I think a lot of the limitations of these studies has to do with a lack of funding.
> 
> Also, it's always best to study one issue at a time. Too many variables and complications happen when you look at more than one or two problems. Each problem needs it's own separate hypothesis, study, etc.


Kate I agree about the funding. 

Yes each problem needs its own separate study. For example criciate injury is one problem. 

This study used one factor s/n which is fine. However in doing so it needs to choose an experimental design that makes sure that other known factors are accounted for. 

For example we know that weight can be a factor in cruciate problems so they would need to design the study so that factor is either taken care of by experimental design, or they need to do a multivariate or multifactorial analysis to see if it is also significant. Same with several other potentially known influencing factors of this condition. If this is not done how do we really know what is really happening? 

If we want to fpr example research the impact of phosphorous rate on plant growth we make sure that we apply luxury levels of all the other nutrients that may influence the outcome so that Phosphorous is the only nutrient that could be limiting.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Logic dictates if I wish to find out more about other cancers as well as other reproductive problems, that I research and read studies geared towards those subjects. The fact that this particular study did not address those issues does not negate what this study did address.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

susan tuck said:


> Logic dictates if I wish to find out more about other cancers as well as other reproductive problems, that I research and read studies geared towards those subjects. The fact that this particular study did not address those issues does not negate what this study did address.


I agree with you and I am sure you have already done that.

Really my questioning is based on the way the study presents conclusions.

Kate brings up the idea of researching one problem at a time with one hypothesis. I agree so here is what I would do.

The problem is for example cruicate injury.

The hypothesis is that s/n increases the risk of cruciate injuy.

A literature review is then done on all research regarding cruciate injury in dogs.

Research indicates that increased weight, poor structure and breed are other potential factors which may confound the results.

The breed issue is sorted because they are only looking at retrievers.

The next stop is at the biometrician who will then come up with an experimental design and anlysis that will mean that the results will reflect the real effect of s/n directly on cruciate injury.

I would do that for each problem.

I realise that funding is often lacking but there are so many of these studies it would be nice to pool the funding and do it thoroughly.

Really I just want to draw peoples attention to the fact that when they read conclusions it is really important to know all the facts about how the analysis and design was done.

My own anecdotal experiences over a life time of dogs and being in a veterinary family is by the by, but it was significant enough in my mind to question the way that some of these conclusions have been drawn and look more closely at how the experiments were designed. Having also been involved in research for most of my life of course I am going to take a close look.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Seems like your stating the obvious. Anyway, thanks for your concern but I'm pretttttttttty sure most everyone here is already aware of what's important when it comes to reading studies, and I really doubt one person here would make a decision as to altering their animals (or not) based on one study.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> Seems like your stating the obvious. Anyway, thanks for your concern but I'm pretttttttttty sure most everyone here is already aware of what's important when it comes to reading studies, and I really doubt one person here would make a decision as to altering their animals (or not) based on one study.


ooops! Seems like you're...not seems like your...
I hate when people do that!!!
:roll::roll::roll:


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> Seems like your stating the obvious. Anyway, thanks for your concern but I'm pretttttttttty sure most everyone here is already aware of what's important when it comes to reading studies, and I really doubt one person here would make a decision as to altering their animals (or not) based on one study.


Agreed. The conclusions of the study wasn't a surprise to me based on my personal experiences. I already believed that the early spay neuter was limited to early spay neuter. I've spent a LOT of time researching disease and treatment protocols and understand the limitations of any study, not just this one. I also consider the scientific method more subjective, than objective which is why there are issues with studies that can't be reproduced. That said, I rarely need a study to prove something to me in order for me to believe. I live with the dogs and experience everything about them. Sara, if you need studies designed along your biometric scheme, fine. I don't. This was a step in the right direction. I'm sure over time, we will see more break down. Till then, I'll continue to weigh the pros and cons case-by-case. 


T


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> That said, I rarely need a study to prove something to me in order for me to believe. I live with the dogs and experience everything about them. T


 
And you think I dont? Give me a break. Why do you think I am questioning the results - based on my experiences, experiences of friends and 2 specialist vets among family and friends and a lifetime - 45 years living with a lot of dogs.

Susan plenty of people may not make decsions based on one study but plenty do and often those who cant manage entire dogs.

Anyay I guess we are all done here on this topic.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Sara Waters said:


> And you think I dont? Give me a break. Why do you think I am questioning the results - based on my experiences, experiences of friends and 2 specialist vets among family and friends and a lifetime - 45 years living with a lot of dogs.
> 
> Susan plenty of people may not make decsions based on one study but plenty do and often those who cant manage entire dogs.
> 
> Anyay I guess we are all done here on this topic.


 
I've sorta cast your ideas in the realm of different country, different gene pools, perhaps different issues seen amongst dogs. You keep protesting regarding people's inability to manage intact dogs and anything that flies in the face of your spay/neuter or be damned point of view, you will question into the ground. The larger issue for you is irresponsible pet ownership and you'll take the risk of spay/neuter in favor of pet population control or nuisance control like wild dogs. Here, pet people that don't want to be bothered with management or will listen to their vets, will spay/neuter as quick as the vet will do it--just like they continue with those annual vaccinations. Its the breeder/exhibitor community that sits around reading studies and weighing the pros and cons.

T


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I've sorta cast your ideas in the realm of different country, different gene pools, perhaps different issues seen amongst dogs. You keep protesting regarding people's inability to manage intact dogs and anything that flies in the face of your spay/neuter or be damned point of view, you will question into the ground. The larger issue for you is irresponsible pet ownership and you'll take the risk of spay/neuter in favor of pet population control or nuisance control like wild dogs. Here, pet people that don't want to be bothered with management or will listen to their vets, will spay/neuter as quick as the vet will do it--just like they continue with those annual vaccinations. Its the breeder/exhibitor community that sits around reading studies and weighing the pros and cons.
> 
> T


In another thread you were questioning some recent work done by Chris Zink because it flew in the face of what you believed in.

I dont damn spay/ neuter research I read it and have in some cases made adjustments because although I havent experienced it it doesnt take much for me to delay neutering my animals untill their growth plates are closed and who knows a study that I consider well done may indeed find a link.

People just get very concerned and think their dogs are going to have all sorts of things befall them if they neuter. 

In this country unlike European countries we have a huge over production of dogs and inability to manage intact dogs and unfortunately euthanasia in bucket loads goes with it. 

A lot of poorly bred dogs abound and I think this is getting worse and leads to a lot of health problems in dogs. This is a major issue to me, more so than s/n. Specialist vets I know comment all the time about this issue.

I just want people to be sensible about their decisions and not get afraid to neuter their dogs if it is really the best option. I just dont see the risks the way you do because I havent expereinced them.

I personally concentrate on sourcing good structural genetics, keeping the dogs fit and lean and supply good nutrition. Seems to have worked so far.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Sara Waters said:


> In another thread you were questioning some recent work done by Chris Zink because it flew in the face of what you believed in.
> 
> I dont damn spay/ neuter research I read it and have in some cases made adjustments because although I havent experienced it it doesnt take much for me to delay neutering my animals untill their growth plates are closed and who knows a study that I consider well done may indeed find a link.
> 
> ...


I didn't question Chris Zink because of any of my beliefs. I'm not married to docking tails or removing dew claws necessarily. What I really question is bias couched in what's good for the animals medically without much basis for it. Talk about lack of anything scientific or your biometric break downs. Have had dogs both ways. Personally, similarly to you, I think Chris Zink has a larger agenda. I haven't been for or against spay/neuter, just in my life time found it unnecessary. Started spaying older bitches and started seeing the downward spiral. I think we all concentrate on sourcing good genetics and sound dogs maintaining them in condition and with good nutrition. For some of us that includes an intact and functioning endocrine system. You've been able to get by with animals demonstrating health issues before spay/neuter. Some of us are seeing that downward spiral after spay/neuter. Just because you haven't personally experienced it, doesn't mean its not a reality for someone else. You'll continue to accept the studies that work with your spay/neuter [at some point] objective and we'll continue to not unless we see something that warrants it.

As for your "be sensible," part of that is weighing the pros and cons, which also means increased risks for certain health conditions.

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Sara, I hadn't read the study yet and assumed from your responses here that weight/condition was not considered in determining the results. Now that I've read the study, it appears that weight was a factor considered. The ultimate conclusion of the study was regarding suggested timing for neutering given the findings. http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0055937: 



*Finally, body condition scores (BCS), ranging from 1 to 9 and obtained from the patient records (when available) were taken into account because BCS, as an indication of weight on the joints, is considered to play a role in the onset of these joint disorders **[17]**, **[18]**. Also, neutering has been implicated in an increase in body weight, especially as indicated by body condition score **[18]**. . .*

*To examine the role of BCS in the development of HD and CCL, Cox proportional hazard (CPH) models were used, in which both BCS and age at the time of neutering were included as predictors. The resulting tests of the neutering effect are adjusted for differences in BCS among the groups. Statistical level of significance was set at the 5 percent level for all analyses.*


*Perusal of **Figure 1** and **Table 4** reveals that HD in early-neutered males, affecting 10.3 percent, was more than double the proportion of intact males with the disorder, which was 5.1 percent, a significant difference (K-M: p<0.01). There was also a significant difference between early and late neutering in males (K-M: p<0.05). The mean ages of HD onset for intact, early-neutered, and late-neutered male dogs were 4.4, 3.6, and 4.7 years, respectively. No difference was found between early-neutered dogs with and without HD when compared with respect to their BCS, (means 6.1 and 5.7, respectively; CPH: p = 0.22). No other comparisons of HD occurrence were significant; HD was not increased in occurrence by early or later neutering in females (**Figure 2**).*
*Cranial Cruciate Ligament Tear*

*As revealed in **Figures 1** and **2**, there was no occurrence of CCL in either intact male or intact female dogs, or in late-neutered females. However, in early-neutered dogs, the occurrence reached 5.1 percent in males and 7.7 percent in females, representing significant differences in occurrence from both intact and late-neutered dogs (K-M: p<0.05, **Table 4**). The mean age of CCL onset in early-neutered males was 3.6 years and the single late-neutered male dog diagnosed with CCL was 7.4 years. The mean age of onset of CCL for early-neutered female dogs was 4.8 years. For CCL, no differences were found between neutered males with and without CCL with regards to their BCS (means 5.8 and 5.8 respectively; CPH: p = 0.48). Likewise, no differences in mean BCS were found between neutered females with and without CCL (means 5.8 and 5.8 respectively; CHP: p = 0.26).*

*A logical question to ask with regard to the joint disorders of HD and CCL is if those neutered dogs diagnosed with the disorder were carrying relatively more weight on their joints, which may have predisposed them to the disorder. Therefore, once an effect of early neutering was found with regard to HD (males) and CCL (males and females), the CPH model was applied to reexamine the effect of early neutering, after adjusting for differences in BCS. While neutering is expected to lead to a greater gain in body weight than in intact dogs **[17]**, **[18]**, the BCS of early-neutered dogs with the disorders and the early neutered comparison groups without the disorders were not significantly different – and, in fact quite similar – indicating that weight on the joint was not a major determinant in the occurrence of these joint disorders. Using the CPH model to compare early-neutered with intact dogs, for both HD and CCL, neither neutering status nor BCS was significant, indicating that the two factors are fairly highly confounded. This implies that the occurrence of HD and CCL in early-neutered dogs is a combined function of the effect of neutering on growth plates, as well as the increase in weight on the joints brought on by neutering. As mentioned, when only early-neutered dogs with and without HD or CCL were compared with respect to their BCS, no differences were found between early-neutered males with and without these joint disorders.*


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I didn't question Chris Zink because of any of my beliefs. I'm not married to docking tails or removing dew claws necessarily. What I really question is bias couched in what's good for the animals medically without much basis for it. Talk about lack of anything scientific or your biometric break downs. Have had dogs both ways. Personally, similarly to you, I think Chris Zink has a larger agenda. I haven't been for or against spay/neuter, just in my life time found it unnecessary. Started spaying older bitches and started seeing the downward spiral. I think we all concentrate on sourcing good genetics and sound dogs maintaining them in condition and with good nutrition. For some of us that includes an intact and functioning endocrine system. You've been able to get by with animals demonstrating health issues before spay/neuter. Some of us are seeing that downward spiral after spay/neuter. Just because you haven't personally experienced it, doesn't mean its not a reality for someone else. You'll continue to accept the studies that work with your spay/neuter [at some point] objective and we'll continue to not unless we see something that warrants it.
> 
> As for your "be sensible," part of that is weighing the pros and cons, which also means increased risks for certain health conditions.
> 
> T


T I dont particularly have a spay neuter objective, just running my own scientific training over the studies. I view any study tentatively that doesnt meet with my criteria and that includes studies that agree with s/n. I would subject them to the same scrutiny. 

So I just go for the moment with my own experiences and and that of many other dogs I know. I am sure other people like yourself have different experiences which are equaly valid and shape your opinions. 


Most dogs I know with HD or ED were diagnosed before neutering mainly because the sport people I associate with tend to scan their dogs when they are under anathesia for s/n.

We have a very good line of sport bred Border collies over here that are all sold on spay neuter contracts and all have to be scanned for HD at time of neutering and results submitted to the breeder. Those dogs continue to be amongst some of the best sport dogs in the country with very few problems.

Breeders also tend to play the s/n card when a problem arises. A friend of mine and I have cattle dogs from the same line, both diagnosed with ED. First thing the breeder accused us of was neutering them and we informed her they were both entire. My vet surgeon friends tells me that many a breeder has tried to play that card to try and avoid resonsibility for their own stock. ED and HD has become so prevelent in some breeds that the ANKC now have mandotary screening, before breeding is allowed.

As to docking and dew clews, dont do either and I dont belive that tail or ear docking for that matter is neccesary. That is my personal belief. Probably feel the same way about that, that some people feel about neutering. That will make me popular on this site, not.

Any way I think I am over all this now LOL. I will respect your experiences and beliefs and will continue with mine untill I find something that will change my mind.

Challenging studies is not a bad thing, it is the backbone of scientific progession and the pursuit of truth. In the case of s/n which ever way it eventually falls. For me the jury is still out, particularly in relation to some ortho conditions.


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

Going a slight bit off topic here but still related. Preventing Pyo in females seems to at least to me to be one of the most valid reasons to spay a female. I wonder what the incidence level and the attitude towards Pyo is in Europe where it is not the norm to spay/neuter dogs? Is Pyo just a part of the scare tactics in North America where vets tend to push for the procedure? How do the vets in Europe view this risk and approach it?


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## Jessica Kromer (Nov 12, 2009)

Marta Wajngarten said:


> Going a slight bit off topic here but still related. Preventing Pyo in females seems to at least to me to be one of the most valid reasons to spay a female. I wonder what the incidence level and the attitude towards Pyo is in Europe where it is not the norm to spay/neuter dogs? Is Pyo just a part of the scare tactics in North America where vets tend to push for the procedure? How do the vets in Europe view this risk and approach it?


 Curious about this as well....


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## Rachel M. Reams (Nov 29, 2012)

Marta Wajngarten said:


> Going a slight bit off topic here but still related. Preventing Pyo in females seems to at least to me to be one of the most valid reasons to spay a female. I wonder what the incidence level and the attitude towards Pyo is in Europe where it is not the norm to spay/neuter dogs? Is Pyo just a part of the scare tactics in North America where vets tend to push for the procedure? How do the vets in Europe view this risk and approach it?


http://www.ivis.org/proceedings/iscfr/2012/74.pdf?LA=1



> BACKGROUND: *In Sweden only 7% (all ages) of the dog population is neutered* (1). As a consequence, a large number of dogs are susceptible for diseases of the genital tract or that are associated with production of reproductive hormones. Neutering/spaying dogs is performed to avoid reproduction but also for therapy or prevention of diseases. In female dogs, possible health benefits of spaying include prevention of the common uterine diseases cystic endometrial hyperplasia and pyometra. The risk for developing malignant mammary tumours is also considerably lower if spaying is performed at an early age compared with in intact animals (2). *In average 25% of all intact female dogs in Sweden are diagnosed with pyometra by 10 years of age,* with a corresponding proportion of 13% reported for diagnosis of at least one mammary tumour (3, 4). The risk of other diseases induced by reproductive hormone production such as neoplasia of the genital tract, progestagen-induced diabetes type 2 and growth hormone excess is also reduced in neutered animals (5, 6). The objective of the present study was to evaluate the occurrence of the two most important diseases in female dogs that may be prevented by neutering. Due to large differences in the diseases occurrence between breeds, another aim was to evaluate the disease risk for individual breeds.


Sweden (and the Swedish Kennel Club) has a very high number of pedigreed dogs, nearly all dogs are registered with the kennel club, and the kennel club keeps extensive health records on their registered dogs. They can pull incredible amounts of information out of their database. I don't know if using their numbers is a good representative sample for all of Europe (my instincts say no), but a 25% incidence of pyometra by age ten doesn't sound unreasonably high.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Sara, I hadn't read the study yet and assumed from your responses here that weight/condition was not considered in determining the results. Now that I've read the study, it appears that weight was a factor considered. The ultimate conclusion of the study was regarding suggested timing for neutering given the findings. http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0055937:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Yes that is what I was looking for thanks.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

My thoughts are - could breed play a significant role in the range of risks associated with either s/n or leaving intact. The breeds I have experience with never experienced a problems with s/n and my friends tend to have the same breeds.

I nearly lost a bitch to pyo after her first heat and when I spoke to her breeder she told me that she had just lost the dam to pyometra at age 4 making me also wonder about a gentic link, or maybe it was just coincidence.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

deleted because I forgot to include the quote from Sarah


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Sara Waters said:


> Yes that is what I was looking for thanks.


:-k...#-o...](*,)...:roll:

Sarah please tell me I am misunderstanding these remarks to Terrasita and that in fact you did read the whole study before commenting on it?

:lol:


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

susan tuck said:


> :-k...#-o...](*,)...:roll:
> 
> Sarah please tell me I am misunderstanding these remarks to Terrasita and that in fact you did read the whole study before commenting on it?
> 
> :lol:


Susan, I have been out bush working the last week, just back home again some hours ago. With very limited access to internet connection via sattelite, I managed to read the summary and asked if there was more detail as I couldnt find it, we sometimes go hours without connection and often drop out. I assumed that as T had posted it and that you yourself told me that you know how to read studies before accepting conclusions that someone could quickly tell me that yes those stats had been done.

Obviously none of you had read it either because no one could answer my questions untill now. 

Anyway know I am back home and rostered off, I can look through it and see what it has to say. Most studies I have read have usually lacked detail so it will be refeshing to read one that has more detail.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Sara Waters said:


> Susan, I have been out bush working the last week, just back home again some hours ago. With very limited access to internet connection via sattelite, I managed to read the summary and asked if there was more detail as I couldnt find it, we sometimes go hours without connection and often drop out. I assumed that as T had posted it and that you yourself told me that you know how to read studies before accepting conclusions that someone could quickly tell me that yes those stats had been done.
> 
> Obviously none of you had read it either because no one could answer my questions untill now.
> 
> Anyway know I am back home and rostered off, I can look through it and see what it has to say. Most studies I have read have usually lacked detail so it will be refeshing to read one that has more detail.


Seriously???? SERIOUSLY??? 
Speak for yourself, Sara, I read the entire study. I also don't see anywhere in any of these 6 pages where you mentioned that you didn't read the damn thing in the first place, and it's not my job to question whether or not you did. 

My only mistake was in giving you too much credit in assuming you had read the study before making comments about it.
Rest assured I won't make that mistake ever again.

The fact that instead of admitting that you should have read it before you opened your mouth about it, and instead somehow try to turn your stupidity into our fault for not spoon feeding you information speaks volumes. Frankly at this point I couldn't care less what your opinion is of anything, you have lost credibility.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Wait .... what? 

All the comments you made about the study were made without reading it?




_
"Obviously none of you had read it either because no one could answer my questions untill now. "_

Huh?

Am I in the Twilight Zone? 

On Candid Camera? :lol:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> I neutered my dog at 8 years old due to enlarged prostate. He was doing great until that point.
> 
> It has been downhill ever since culminating in a large deep tumor across his shoulder blade and we are not sure what it is but the vet specialist said not much point in doing a biopsy because the arm would have to come off to remove the tumor. Not for a 9.5 year old dog with a wonky back ... no...so pred and pain meds and whatever time left that is good enough.
> 
> ...


Any surgery might have been too much for his system to withstand by then. I think I would have made the same decision with the prostate illness, though. 

All we can do is make our best decision at the time based on the best info we have. 
_
"Did the neuter precipitate the downhill slide or was it just part of the whole sequence ..."_ This seems to me like the epitome of an unknowable. 

I'm so sorry about this. I know how hard it is.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Whoa, all I said was that studies in general can only focus on so much at once and they have a lack of funding.

Then shit got cray!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Katie Finlay said:


> Whoa, all I said was that studies in general can only focus on so much at once and they have a lack of funding.
> 
> Then shit got cray!


Me? I didn't mean you at all; your comment was clearly general.

I was addressing Sara.

I should have been clearer.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

The most notable point about this study for me were the findings about non-pediatric S/N.

My personal POV had long ago settled against pediatric S/N (always with the exception of owners unable/unwilling/uncertain about preventing unplanned pregnancies [cutely called "oops litters"]; it's easy to say "If you can't protect your females and contain your males, then you shouldn't own dogs," but the facts are the facts, and preventing throwaway dogs is a high priority to me).

But there were considerable findings here significantly increasing what I had understood to be the MCT and hemangiosarcoma risks for dogs neutered _after_ a year of age.

It's true that the much higher HD risk than previously reported with pediatric neutering is an eye-opener, but pediatric neutering for me already had so many downsides that this one wasn't needed to tilt the scale (for me).


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## Jessica Kromer (Nov 12, 2009)

Sara Waters said:


> My thoughts are - could breed play a significant role in the range of risks associated with either s/n or leaving intact. The breeds I have experience with never experienced a problems with s/n and my friends tend to have the same breeds.
> 
> I nearly lost a bitch to pyo after her first heat and when I spoke to her breeder she told me that she had just lost the dam to pyometra at age 4 making me also wonder about a gentic link, or maybe it was just coincidence.


Wait a sec... 

You are ALWAYS on here criticizing all the studies that support the fact that _maybe_ keeping a dog intact is good for their health and give anecdote after anecdote of your experience, often going on for PAGES. You dismiss an anecdote from just about anybody else and criticize any study that does not agree with you. Often vehemently. 

Now a NEW study comes out that once again does not agree with you, and you again begin criticizing it for not doing the study the way YOU want them to AND YOU DIDN'T EVEN READ THE STUDY?!?!?! Really!?!?!? 

Then when this is pointed out to you, by someone who READ THE STUDY, you deflect and start in on how "oh, must be a breed thing"?!?!?!? :roll:

I am almost ready to pay someone to do a study on Cattle Dogs (or whatever breed you work with) and be sure that they check with you first to make sure all of YOUR criteria are met first, then wait for you to find fault then. ](*,) :roll:

Credibility on this is gone.


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## Jessica Kromer (Nov 12, 2009)

Rachel M. Reams said:


> http://www.ivis.org/proceedings/iscfr/2012/74.pdf?LA=1
> 
> 
> 
> Sweden (and the Swedish Kennel Club) has a very high number of pedigreed dogs, nearly all dogs are registered with the kennel club, and the kennel club keeps extensive health records on their registered dogs. They can pull incredible amounts of information out of their database. I don't know if using their numbers is a good representative sample for all of Europe (my instincts say no), but a 25% incidence of pyometra by age ten doesn't sound unreasonably high.


Thank you for that. ;-) Hemangiosarcoma and mast cell tumors are fairly prevalent in my breed... So the original study kinda makes me think a bit harder about risk vs. reward...


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

susan tuck said:


> Seriously???? SERIOUSLY???
> Speak for yourself, Sara, I read the entire study. I also don't see anywhere in any of these 6 pages where you mentioned that you didn't read the damn thing in the first place, and it's not my job to question whether or not you did.
> 
> My only mistake was in giving you too much credit in assuming you had read the study before making comments about it.
> ...


I didnt turn it in to your fault, I could only access the summary, I couldnt access the full report where I was, sorry I didnt make that clear, there was a lot going on and we were all sharing a computer. 

When I asked about the way the cruciate work was done it would have been sufficient to have done what T did in the end, especially if you had read the study and already knew the answer. That speaks volumes about you as well.

Frankly I have no interest in whether I have credibility with you or not, certainly not a major priority in my life. Exceptionally low priority in fact.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Jessica Kromer said:


> Wait a sec...
> 
> Then when this is pointed out to you, by someone who READ THE STUDY, you deflect and start in on how "oh, must be a breed thing"?!?!?!? :roll:
> 
> ...


With breed thing I wasnt deflecting on that study, I was commenting on the Swedish kennel study that said that there may be big differences between breeds. So there could be, same with incontinence where a study said that large dog s seemed to me susceptible than small dogs. Rotties seem to be more susceptible to osteosarcome for instance.

Really I was trying to get across that for some breeds the s/n may be a more considerable issue where the risks are larger. Just because I havent seen it so much in my breeds doesnt negate the fact it may be a real issue in other breeds. I wasnt defending s/n across all breeds, just making comments on the breeds I know. I thought that was clear.

Again I have no interest in having credibility with you either.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

_"Hemangiosarcoma and mast cell tumors are fairly prevalent in my breed... So the original study kinda makes me think a bit harder about risk vs. reward..."_


Yes. 

For me, there are always lines of demarcation between the neuter risks/benefits for females and males as well as between pediatric and full-growth altering.

This info about MCTs and hemangiosarcoma in later-spayed females is blurring those lines now.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Sara, to me it sounded like you were speaking volumes against spay/neuter of any breed. But I came in late so maybe I missed where you were only talking about your breed.

Connie, no problem. I kinda thought you hadn't meant me but I wasn't sure, haha


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## Jessica Kromer (Nov 12, 2009)

I have always spayed between two and three years due to pyo and one bitch DID pass from Hemangiosarcoma. I am not so linear in my thought process to assume I _caused_ her to develop it, but knowing that there is a proven correlation makes me think twice. I know the signs of pyo, and am pretty in tune with them regarding "off" behavior and ready to get them to an e-vet quickly. I think that given the various studies I will likely opt to leave my next bitch intact...


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jessica Kromer said:


> I have always spayed between two and three years due to pyo and one bitch DID pass from Hemangiosarcoma. I am not so linear in my thought process to assume I _caused_ her to develop it, but knowing that there is a proven correlation makes me think twice. I know the signs of pyo, and am pretty in tune with them regarding "off" behavior and ready to get them to an e-vet quickly. I think that given the various studies I will likely opt to leave my next bitch intact...


I know .... it's the female thing that has me pondering now. I do worry about pyo, and I also worry about mammary tumors. But MCTs seem (anecdotally, anyway) to be on the rise along with the increase in canine allergies.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Katie Finlay said:


> Sara, to me it sounded like you were speaking volumes against spay/neuter of any breed. But I came in late so maybe I missed where you were only talking about your breed.
> 
> Connie, no problem. I kinda thought you hadn't meant me but I wasn't sure, haha


No I was talking about the experiences with my breeds, I thought that was clear I also commented on how past research hadnt factored in weight to the cruciate problem.

I could only read the summary of the new study where I was and weight wasnt mentioned, so I bought it up. No one said anything despite the conversation, so I wrongly assumed that the experiemntal details wern't availble. I proably should have said it was just difficult where I was.

T sent them to me and I thanked her. 

It is very hard to communicate sometimes where I am at times and I find face to face conversation much easier. 

Really I dont care on the credibility issues. It is hard to find anyone credible on the internet without knowing them. People can say anything they like behind a computer screen myself included.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Sara it's OK, we all get it. We understand you have a knee jerk reaction any time the subject of spay/neuter is raised on this board, possibly because we make you feel a little defensive since unlike you, most of us do not normally spay/neuter our dogs. So maybe this time you jumped the gun a little, and spoke critically before you actually had time to read the article. Just chalk it up to lesson learned, and have a nice day!


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

susan tuck said:


> Sara it's OK, we all get it. We understand you have a knee jerk reaction any time the subject of spay/neuter is raised on this board, possibly because we make you feel a little defensive since unlike you, most of us do not normally spay/neuter our dogs. So maybe this time you jumped the gun a little, and spoke critically before you actually had time to read the article. Just chalk it up to lesson learned, and have a nice day!


That is sooo patronising.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jessica Kromer said:


> T .... Hemangiosarcoma and mast cell tumors are fairly prevalent in my breed... So the original study kinda makes me think a bit harder about risk vs. reward...


Is your breed also prone to atopy (or allergies in general)?

I know there's no definite correlation (that I've seen in a good study) between allergies on the rise and MCTs on the rise, but I think I'm seeing that.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Hey Connie I'm going to send you a PM on the other forum because this one isn't working for me (that's what my message is about). Will you check it please? Thanks!


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## Jessica Kromer (Nov 12, 2009)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Is your breed also prone to atopy (or allergies in general)?
> 
> I know there's no definite correlation (that I've seen in a good study) between allergies on the rise and MCTs on the rise, but I think I'm seeing that.


Yep. As a matter of fact, I chose NOT to breed a very nice dog, and his susceptibility to allergies (and hot spots) and earlier demodex issues that needed treatment to cure. He was nice, but a strict diet and attention to external factors is all that kept him relatively symptom free.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jessica Kromer said:


> Yep. As a matter of fact, I chose NOT to breed a very nice dog, and his susceptibility to allergies (and hot spots) and earlier demodex issues that needed treatment to cure. He was nice, but a strict diet and attention to external factors is all that kept him relatively symptom free.


I wish more people understood the huge heritability factor in the propensity to form IgE antibodies. Of course, complicating it is the probability that by the time a dog starts developing allergies, the breeding may have already been repeated.

Also, people who haven't had dogs with allergies really don't/can't have a full picture of the misery of histamine receptors in the skin as well as the myriad related conditions. 

Allergies in dogs are miserable, frustrating, and expensive. And the secondary stuff (yeast, staph, and more ..... and now MCTs, I suspect) can be even worse.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I wish more people understood the huge heritability factor in the propensity to form IgE antibodies. Of course, complicating it is the probability that by the time a dog starts developing allergies, the breeding may have already been repeated.
> 
> Also, people who haven't had dogs with allergies really don't/can't have a full picture of the misery of histamine receptors in the skin as well as the myriad related conditions.
> 
> Allergies in dogs are miserable, frustrating, and expensive. And the secondary stuff (yeast, staph, and more ..... and now MCTs, I suspect) can be even worse.



This was one of the reasons I went with my dog's breeder. I couldn't find an instance of allergies in any of the dogs that came out of her kennel. Avoiding allergies is HUGE for me, even if I'm not going to be breeding my dog.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Jessica Kromer said:


> Yep. As a matter of fact, I chose NOT to breed a very nice dog, and his susceptibility to allergies (and hot spots) and earlier demodex issues that needed treatment to cure. He was nice, but a strict diet and attention to external factors is all that kept him relatively symptom free.


My hubby and I just adopted a rottweiler who belonged to my neighbor her in Sequim WA, who passed away. He's 10 years old and he too is very prone to allergic reactions resulting in terrible hot spots, etc..which has been controlled thanks to a life time of strict diet and as you said, attention to external factors. We are continuing his same strict diet, but he is living in our Los Angeles home with my husband. I'm very concerned the change in climate, etc., will exacerbate his delicate system.

Anyway, I agree with everyone, avoiding canine alergies is high on my list of priorities, too.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Sara Waters said:


> Susan, I have been out bush working the last week, just back home again some hours ago. With very limited access to internet connection via sattelite, I managed to read the summary and asked if there was more detail as I couldnt find it, we sometimes go hours without connection and often drop out. I assumed that as T had posted it and that you yourself told me that you know how to read studies before accepting conclusions that someone could quickly tell me that yes those stats had been done.
> 
> Obviously none of you had read it either because no one could answer my questions untill now.
> 
> Anyway know I am back home and rostered off, I can look through it and see what it has to say. Most studies I have read have usually lacked detail so it will be refeshing to read one that has more detail.


_I think that with the wealth of data that the UC Davis study had access to I am surprised that they didnt analyse the data further to see if they could pull up further assocations and realtionships. I also note that they failed to mention breast cancer and other reproductive system diseases, which gives it a slightly one sided flavour._

I'm a little surprised after all your discussion of your profession and what you would like to see in a study for it to be credible and your criticism of past studies to find upon reading the full study that you either hadn't read it or was hoping that everyone else had just read the absract or summary. I would think that given your profession that you, as I have, had learned that one shouldn't rely on abstracts or summaries. One of the reasons I didn't comment initially is because I only had the link from Nita Eichmann [thanks] and was going to search for the full study when I had the time. Thanks to Marta for doing my work for me. You commented above regarding the UC Davis study stating that it "didn't analyse" and what they "failed to mention. . . which gives it a slightly one sided favour." This gave me the impression that you had actually read the study--especially given your recitation of your professional experiences. Again, your posture here further reminds me of how subjective I often find scientists. You have your own hypothesis and you are only interested in proving yours and disproving others. Now you would have us believe that given your profession, you were waiting on one of us to spoon feed you information from the study. Really??? You had enough time and internet connection to spin post after post "questioning" the study. Seems to me at a touch of a key, you could have read it before criticising it as to what it didn't have either in experimental design or biometric break down or multivariate vs single factor analysis. Now you want to latch onto the ending disclaimer wherein the study states that its finding was limited to Golden Retrievers. Wheeewwww saved by the bell---its just a breed thing!!! No, its just a bias thing and you should just admit it. You can't seem to wrap your mind around the concept of "exacerbating factor" as distinguished from primary cause.

One of the intersting things about this study and your beloved CCL was the finding that in the intact population, 0% incidence rate. In the neutered population: early--5%; late--8%.


I have had a multi-breed househould--Bouvier des Flandres; GSDs; Pembroke Welsh Corgi; and a BC. Typically my spay/neuter have been late--5-9 years old--all of which died by age 10 due to some form of cancer, many of which were within a year of spay/neuter. All but one kept intact live to almost 15 w/ no issues. I select [except for the rescue BC] for ideal structure because its necessary for work and especially working into the geriatric years. HD has not been an issue except for one dog. Since then I've been religious about only buying out of multigenerational OFA certified stock and haven't seen HD since. I have attributed CCL to breed disposition [Rotties] and straight stifles but know of a line of corgis where I consider it genetic. In the circles I run in, overweight is never an issue. This is the breeder exhibitor circle and primarily performance. We can't even look at a dog without sizing up weight/condition first. I keep dogs intact for breeding--either my own or their breeder. Once they are past breeding age, in the past, I would spay the bitch--given pyo and even mammary cancer issues. After several of these and Khaldi most recently, I've changed my mind on this.

My last bitch, I spayed at 8. By 9, diagnosed with lymphoma. One alarming note for me, in this study was the reference regarding lymphoma and spayed vs. intact bitches. Also looking at HSA and MCT in terms of early vs. lat spay vs. intact. As the study said, very easy to look at males and guage WHEN best to neuter if you must. Not so much in bitches. For me personally, I'd rather see further breakdown in terms of Age 5 vs. Age 8 and beyond. 

This was a very well done study IMO. For me, I particularly like all of the in hospital monitoring and recording of data, I really commend the Canine Health Foundation and the Golden Retriever people. I have high REGARD for any work done to look at the inicidence of health issues and particularly cancer. The initial premise was't all issues but issues that occur with some degree of frequency in the breed studied. Perhaps other breeds will follow suit.

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I know .... it's the female thing that has me pondering now. I do worry about pyo, and I also worry about mammary tumors. But MCTs seem (anecdotally, anyway) to be on the rise along with the increase in canine allergies.


One reference in this study was regarding the credibility of the previous mammary tumor study regarding spayed bitches. In the past all we had was that mamary tumors were reduced if the bitch was spayed before the first heat cycle. If you wait until growth plates are closed--you've lost that. As for pyometra, for me that is a management thing and something I'm not as concerned with because I feel that I can catch it early enough. I feel that a lot of issues with Pyometra is that it is caught too late and/or intervention is too late. I'm currently watching the research with cattle and Echinacea and pyometra. For several years this is something I've done with mine if they seemed off with a season and last year stumbled across the information with cattle --to my amazement. Where bitches are concerned, its a case by case basis and that is largely depended upon how they cycle. Based on my own, I think all of this is an issue of hormonal balance so like myself, I look to nutritional factors. For a long time I've been concerned about the changes in dogs due to food and water sources. How much chloramine and chorine can one ingest??? The EPA says its fine. I don't buy it. We are seeing reproductive failure in an alarming rate in pedigreed dogs--small litters, failure to conceive--etc. I look to vaccinations; parasite poisons, etc. along with the possibility of the inbreeding factor/genetics along with diet. But in discussing this with a friend who was at her wits end, I told her that if her bitch were mine, I'd opt for bottled water. She laughed. Was talking to someone else [golden retrievers] about the same thing--failure to conceive and she said she went to distilled water and wallah!! 

Now with the intact girls, I'm paying attention to cycle normalcy. I find 4-month cyclers highly suspect. I always ask the vet the condition of the uterus when they spay every since one found a cyst the size of a baseball. When looking at a line of dogs, I'm always interested in factors like; free whelp, cancers including reproductive and pyometra. I have a friend who bred a bitch with pyometra on her first heat cycle who was out of a mother that had pyometra. For me, done and time for a new bitch line. You are only perpetuating it genetically. 

The spay/neuter situation with bitches isn't cut and dried for me. It can be damned if you do and damned if you don't. For now, unless I see an issue, they will remain intact.

T


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

That last line there about it not being cut-and-dried with bitches: this was brought home even more to me with this paper.

_
"As for pyometra, for me that is a management thing and something I'm not as concerned with because I feel that I can catch it early enough."_

I need to read up a lot more on this. I'm not particularly familiar with it (I mean first-hand experience) and need to find out out if I can make myself sure of recognizing early symptoms of closed pyometra.


PS
Thanks to all for getting the thread back on track! Sara's entirely different way of life from that of many or most of us can provide a very different POV, so it was great that we could clear the air, everyone speak, and then move on. Thanks!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

_" I feel that a lot of issues with Pyometra is that it is caught too late and/or intervention is too late. "_



Have you folks caught early closed pyo, and how?


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## Jessica Kromer (Nov 12, 2009)

So I indicated earlier that I was curious about the incidence of Pyo inintact females. A study was linked to with findings from Sweeden that showed rates up to 25% by age 10. I later found a study from Japan on a colony of 165 Beagles that showed an incidence of 15.2% over the age of four with an average onset of about 9 years. (Beagle Study

More on Pyo here. I actually found the whole article interesting...


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Jessica,

That is an interesting article--probably the best I've seen on pyo from a medical standpoint--thanks. No, Connie, I have not seen a closed pyo case personally. I think you are looking for the same symptoms and I think they would be even stronger and more identifiable in closed.


T


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Doesn't closed-cervix pyo mean that a major symptom is missing, though? 

There is no discharge. The pus is trapped inside.

During a heat, bacteria from the vulva can travel up into the uterus via the open cervix. The cervix closing with the e.coli (or other bacteria) inside the uterus gives the bacteria a perfect place to thrive.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Doesn't closed-cervix pyo mean that a major symptom is missing, though? There is no discharge.


Actually, the #1 thing that signals watch closely [for me] is increased water intake. And yes, that's exactly what it means. But with closed, I think you are more apt to have things like: loss of appetite, fever, distention, etc. 

T


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Actually, the #1 thing that signals watch closely [for me] is increased water intake. And yes, that's exactly what it means. But with closed, I think you are more apt to have things like: loss of appetite, fever, distention, etc.
> 
> T


I didn't know about increased water intake.

I actually don't know enough about pyo, period. I have to fix that.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I didn't know about increased water intake.
> 
> I actually don't know enough about pyo, period. I have to fix that.


 I think Jessica's article gives a good laundry list of symptoms. I've always had girlz and in all these years--one pyo. Vet said it wasn't. I believed it was and insisted on spaying. I was right. Granted, she didn't have some of the findings that he was used to seeing but I live with her and know how I was managing her. 

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Oh and a good reference book overall: _Book of the Bitch, A Complete Guide to Understanding and Caring for Bitches_ by J.M. Evans & Kay White. I probably bought it from Dogwise.


T


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## Jessica Kromer (Nov 12, 2009)

I think a MAJOR factor would be a bitch that recently went through a cycle. If she presents with listlessness, or "off" in any way then a trip to the vet for an ultrasound would be first on the list. Seems that is the best way to diagnose Pyo (over x-ray, palpation or blood panel) and can quickly give one a good idea about what is going on (or not) in an intact bitch.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Thanks to all who are providing the great info on Pyo. This has become an extremely informative thread, much appreciated!


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Jessica Kromer said:


> I think a MAJOR factor would be a bitch that recently went through a cycle. If she presents with listlessness, or "off" in any way then a trip to the vet for an ultrasound would be first on the list. Seems that is the best way to diagnose Pyo (over x-ray, palpation or blood panel) and can quickly give one a good idea about what is going on (or not) in an intact bitch.


Yes, you are watching throughout the cycle and for 60 days thereafter while the progesterone is still high. I think you see the increased water intake even before the other syptoms of being "off." Another key is how your males are acting. A lot of times if the males are showing interest, you can suspect an issue even if its a UTI. Although it can happen in a young bitch or even with the first heat cycle, I don't think about it as much during the first five years but thereafter, its on my mind. You do want an ultrasonographer that is accustomed to looking at reproductive organs. I keep a calendar and they're in the house with me all the time so I'm really attuned to their habits. I think you have to factor all of this in when deciding. Bitches aren't easy due to all of the competing variables.


T


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I had a Kerry bitch that got Pyo at about 5yrs old. The excess water intake was the first sign. 
She developed cancer around the front foot within a year and in the next 3 yrs had her breasts removed due to more cancer. At 8yrs old I had her put down due to a large mass in her abdomen with considerable discomfort. I wasn't going to put her through anymore.
I will have to mention that I can't directly connect the pyo with the cancer because I found out later that her grandsire was a huge cancer producer......but he was a top 3 Nationally ranked winner in the show circles so it was never divulged. :evil::evil::evil:


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