# throw back...?!



## Cameron Jennings (Apr 7, 2013)

https://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=2215437-dione-vom-noble-craft


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

The postman's daughter...??


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## Cathy Hayes (Oct 24, 2013)

there is a breeder here in Kansas that breeds for livers and blues.....tests for DM and then breeds litters that will produce it.....GRRRRR:twisted:


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

I guess they had a dutch shepherd on the property.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Cathy, please post a bit about yourself, your dogs and your experience.

Here - http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f20/

It's a WDF requirement.

Thanks
WDF Moderators


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Can it bite?


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Haz Othman said:


> Can it bite?


If it can bite and sustain pressure... I dont care if the dog's orange. 

To answer the question, yes, it is possible to get recessives like this.


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## Catherine Gervin (Mar 12, 2012)

i would wonder if deliberately breeding for coloration brought on by the abundance of recessive genes would produce flaws for GSDs the way it does for Dobermans. blues and fawns--Isabellas?--have vision problems and are excessively sensitive to prolonged sun exposure and have skin issues...i knew one of each of these "rare coloration" pups--each one from a litter of otherwise stalwart pups--and both the blue and fawn pups had a myriad of health problems (though nothing major still consistently influential...lots of ointments and allergies and vet trips and special considerations required. what a pain in the ass, and all because that special color was sooo important to the owners WHO PAID MORE FOR THE PUPPIES, each of them had done so) that their siblings did not.


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## Chip Blasiole (Jun 7, 2006)

Clearly a liver coat color. The sire is a solid black and must carry the Bb genotype (black carrying reccessive liver), and the mother appears to be a black and tan which would also have to carry the bb genotype (liver.)


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Tiago Fontes said:


> If it can bite and sustain pressure... I dont care if the dog's orange.
> 
> To answer the question, yes, it is possible to get recessives like this.


Tiago,

I can understand your Sentiments entirely. One can tour around, checking out various Kennels and buy the dog that fits one's requirements.

However, breeding, not just for coloration, but with a view to eliminating certain "defects" in breeds, i.e. Berger de Brie, no white coloration on chest, Bernese Mountain Dogs, too much white on forelegs, Landseer, black speckles on forelegs, etc., etc. can cause an unnatural selection. 

The Cairn Terrier is a healthy breed. However, some breeders starting breeding from only the White cairns, resulting in the fact that the "whities" landed on the picture of the dog food tins. It's much prettier but 10 x as daft as its original breed "Cairn Terrier".

The White GSDs have established their own breed: "Suisse Blanc"- I've come into contact with a number of hese pitiful animals, afraid of their own shadow. I helped one or two owners train their dogs in Obedience and Agility. I don't want to minimise these sports in any way but it was all they were nearly capable of doing.

Just the mention of blue or black Malinois, makes me cringe.

Breeding alone for coloration purposes is doomed to failure.


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## Chip Blasiole (Jun 7, 2006)

I think the argument could be made that the GSD has been bred to the breed's detriment by trying to breed out too many "defects" such as various aspects of structure, movement or color going back to the begining of the breed. When you select for certain traits, you loose other traits genetically associated with those traits, that might be valuable. When you select primarily for working ability, you end up with a better result.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Many breeds start out this way. 

Gillian, you mentioned the Cairns bred for white.

The West Highland White terrier was actually bred from Cairn terriers. 

A terrierman lost his fav earth dog because it was mistakenly shot for a fox because of it's color. 

Many yrs ago breeds may have had a legit reason for being developed . 

Today it's all about cashing in on the latest fad.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

I don't know if color matters for working dogs from a practical point of view but I think it can matter for hunting dogs...if they could be mistaken for the game being pursued in the heat of the chase.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Many breeds start out this way.
> 
> Gillian, you mentioned the Cairns bred for white.
> 
> ...


 Bob, if you go back to my post, you will see that I said that some breeders (?) started breeding just with the whites, hence the "West Highland White" a doomed breed.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Many breeds start out this way.
> 
> Gillian, you mentioned the Cairns bred for white.
> 
> ...


Every hunting season nearly there is an accident, especially in the Eastern part of Switzerland or in Italy. where hunters mistakenly shot a colleague or someone dressed in brown!!!


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Tiago,
> 
> I can understand your Sentiments entirely. One can tour around, checking out various Kennels and buy the dog that fits one's requirements.
> 
> ...



Not sure I understood the meaning of your post, but, in no way, shape or form do I support breeding for color. 

I am focused solely on performance and working longevity. If the head is narrow or lacks typical GSD angulation is not a concern of mine. I want the dog to bite hard, track, jump and move powerfully, in order to accomplish the task before him. 

Sadly or not, upon perspective, I do not care if a dog fits the standard. 

Needs to work, be healthy and make its owner proud. 

Hope thats a bit clearer.


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## Marcel Winter (Mar 29, 2013)

I read many times on the WW-web the liver colour must come over Pike

I have seen many linebreeding on Pike 2-3 3-3 4-4-5 etc I have never seen or heard about this in a litter myself?


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Tiago Fontes said:


> Not sure I understood the meaning of your post, but, in no way, shape or form do I support breeding for color.
> 
> I am focused solely on performance and working longevity. If the head is narrow or lacks typical GSD angulation is not a concern of mine. I want the dog to bite hard, track, jump and move powerfully, in order to accomplish the task before him.
> 
> ...


I will revert to your post later.

One thng I can never forget. The breeder of my Berger de Brie (Briard) had 2 pups too many for the required number allowed to be weaned.

The breed controller was on holiday and came 2 weeks later to examine the litter. 8 were allowed, 10 had been born.

Each pup already had its little chrocheted "collar" around it and "fireman red" and "whitie" were doomed for the gallows. Whitie had a small white patch on its chest. I cannot remember what Firemen Red had but it had nothing to do with its health.

The vet didn't want to euthanise them but, according to the Berger de Brie breeding regulations, he had to. Maybe the breeder could have found some people to give them to?

I only know that I will never forget seeing these pups at birth and tending to them when the breeder was otherwise engaged.

What if these pups had been better breeding material than their "colour perfect" litter mates?
Luckily, the number of pups allowed to be weaned was raised from 8-10.

The bitch was more than healthy enough to care for them.

We live in a very small country and sometimes "small" can be applied to peoples brains.

We have so many rules and regulations for breeding but often based on "Show" not "Performance".


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Bob, if you go back to my post, you will see that I said that some breeders (?) started breeding just with the whites, hence the "West Highland White" a doomed breed.



From my understanding there are no lines of West Highland Whites that don't carry a bad gene for some sort of copper toxin in the liver. 

Not all the dogs but all the lines.


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## Catherine Gervin (Mar 12, 2012)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I will revert to your post later.
> 
> One thng I can never forget. The breeder of my Berger de Brie (Briard) had 2 pups too many for the required number allowed to be weaned.
> 
> ...


how sad to think that they would have to die just for being too many...no other sin committed other than being extra? clearly not a rule founded on the Catholic outlook...glad they changed the rule to accommodate that rare extra-big litter


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Tiago Fontes said:


> Not sure I understood the meaning of your post, but, in no way, shape or form do I support breeding for color.
> 
> I am focused solely on performance and working longevity. If the head is narrow or lacks typical GSD angulation is not a concern of mine. I want the dog to bite hard, track, jump and move powerfully, in order to accomplish the task before him.
> 
> ...


I agree with you to a point. To do the work you want the dog to do, it has to come from a stock that produces healthy specimens, i.e. excellent hips (forceful jumps for the sleeve if you are doing IPO), and no spine Problems

The willingness to work and the necessary aggression goes without saying.

Just today I read some news about Helmut Reisser saying that a dog that did not show 
aggression after the "out"phase in Schutzhund, should *not* be awarded the Excellent status. Looks like something is in doing which would affect the breeding of the GSD. Will follow up.


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I agree with you to a point. To do the work you want the dog to do, it has to come from a stock that produces healthy specimens, i.e. excellent hips (forceful jumps for the sleeve if you are doing IPO), and no spine Problems
> 
> The willingness to work and the necessary aggression goes without saying.
> 
> ...



Can you explain this "aggression after the out phase in Schutzhund"? Not sure I understand what you're referring to.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Tiago Fontes said:


> Can you explain this "aggression after the out phase in Schutzhund"? Not sure I understand what you're referring to.


He actually said "takes up an aggressive position" and I interpreted it as referring to the guarding position after the out, i.e. not just sitting in front of the helper obediently.

I'll go through the RSV 2000 site to see what I can find.

Here is Helmut Raiser in Argentina but I found it difficult to understand. The 2nd half was clearer. 

Can you speak Spanish?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XwTkMDHm04


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Gillian Schuler said:


> He actually said "takes up an aggressive position" and I interpreted it as referring to the guarding position after the out, i.e. not just sitting in front of the helper obediently.
> 
> I'll go through the RSV 2000 site to see what I can find.
> 
> ...



Speak and write in Spanish. It's not a problem


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## Marcel Winter (Mar 29, 2013)

Tiago Fontes said:


> Can you explain this "aggression after the out phase in Schutzhund"? Not sure I understand what you're referring to.



Look at this dog Tiago I like him Bolle Ja Na Ka ;-)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEmLEiFaCX8


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## Mark Sheplak (Oct 28, 2011)

Tiago Fontes said:


> Speak and write in Spanish. It's not a problem


This seems like a chalkboard version of his Schutzdienst theory seminar. The one that I attended in 2011 was taught off of a .ppt file and color coded (green = prey drive, blue = compliance, grey = aggression) all exercises for protection. He emphasized clarity and drive transition between exercises. For example, escape is green, out after the lock up is blue, but then the guarding is grey. The reattack is green, out blue, guarding grey. All B&H / guarding behaviors are supposed to be in grey if I am remembering correctly. As such, the silent out is discouraged by Raiser as the dog is blue (i.e., obeying). 

If people are interested, he will be in Orlando in Feb 2015.


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Marcel Winter said:


> Look at this dog Tiago I like him Bolle Ja Na Ka ;-)
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEmLEiFaCX8



I like him too...


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

A quiet stare after the out doesn't necessarily mean less aggression. JMHO!


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Mark Sheplak said:


> This seems like a chalkboard version of his Schutzdienst theory seminar. The one that I attended in 2011 was taught off of a .ppt file and color coded (green = prey drive, blue = compliance, grey = aggression) all exercises for protection. He emphasized clarity and drive transition between exercises. For example, escape is green, out after the lock up is blue, but then the guarding is grey. The reattack is green, out blue, guarding grey. All B&H / guarding behaviors are supposed to be in grey if I am remembering correctly. As such, the silent out is discouraged by Raiser as the dog is blue (i.e., obeying).
> 
> If people are interested, he will be in Orlando in Feb 2015.


Thank you - I thought this was what he meant.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> A quiet stare after the out doesn't necessarily mean less aggression. JMHO!


I agree! There are good (intense:evil and bad (stevie wonder8-[) silent guards just as there are good (intense:evil: ) and bad (oh please [-o<can I have a cookie) active guards.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> A quiet stare after the out doesn't necessarily mean less aggression. JMHO!


I agree but I think that Helmut Raiser can distinguish between an "obedient" stare and an "aggressive stare" according to the dog's position.


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## Mark Sheplak (Oct 28, 2011)

susan tuck said:


> I agree! There are good (intense:evil and bad (stevie wonder8-[) silent guards just as there are good (intense:evil: ) and bad (oh please [-o<can I have a cookie) active guards.


Just repeated Raiser's system/opinions and he most certainly isn't referring to prey barking during guarding. 

Silent guards make a lot of sense when a re-attack follows in terms of maximizing points as they eliminate the helper/dog timing to get a full grip if the dog bounces around a lot. It also lessens the chances of a dog getting dirty on two of the outs. Lots of trainers train a silent guard before re-attacks and active guards otherwise...usually crazy, over the top bouncing all over the place active guards. See for example, Bolle Ja Na Ka, not one of his better scores, but is a good example of this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEmLEiFaCX8


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## Mark Sheplak (Oct 28, 2011)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I agree but I think that Helmut Raiser can distinguish between an "obedient" stare and an "aggressive stare" according to the dog's position.


Sure, agreed.

I am sure this will come up during his seminar, if not I will ask. My understanding (which may be wrong) is that a silent stare is still "blue" behavior. The aggression is certainly there and being "capped", but the dog is still being obedient.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I would certainly appreciate your raising this question.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Mark Sheplak said:


> Sure, agreed.
> 
> I am sure this will come up during his seminar, if not I will ask. My understanding (which may be wrong) is that a silent stare is still "blue" behavior. The aggression is certainly there and being "capped", but the dog is still being obedient.


Yes, but isn't the dog being "obedient" in an active guard since he must bark but not touch the helper? That is trained and is obedient, no?


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## Mark Sheplak (Oct 28, 2011)

susan tuck said:


> Yes, but isn't the dog being "obedient" in an active guard since he must bark but not touch the helper? That is trained and is obedient, no?


Yes, all of IPO is trained behavior. We could stop there.  

Active guard doesn't require drive capping and is a different drive state than silent guarding. It is an entirely different behavior and provides insight into different aspects of a dog's character. He is more interested in breed suitability than points.

I will get clarification of Raiser's perspective in a few months.


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## Cameron Jennings (Apr 7, 2013)

I prefer a silent guard by far... nothing like a dog that truly wants to kill you... dying to engage..loaded as can be starring you down..also you learn a lot about the dog whether it overloads in drive becoming hectic...whether they get nervous and go into conflict .. many things.. I respect any trainer that can train a serious dog to silently guard.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> Yes, but isn't the dog being "obedient" in an active guard since he must bark but not touch the helper? That is trained and is obedient, no?


Ideally I think the releasing of the sleeve is obedience, but the guarding should come from the dogs need to control the helper and come from emotion and drive. 

Lots of untrained dogs will have excellent bark and holds when they are confronted with an aggressor.


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