# Rottweilers and directability



## Emilio Rodriguez

I put this post in this section because I'm interested in the subject but only as it pertains to protection dogs. Hopefully there are some rottweiler enthusiasts here that can comment.


Emilio Rodriguez said:


> Retrieving is a great indication of future willingness/directability. Good luck seeing it in a rott puppy though.





Ian Forbes said:


> I agree that a desire to retrieve is a very useful thing. I disagree that you should not expect it in a Rott pup.


I didn't say that you shouldn't expect it as I'd really love to see it but I guess that so many times not seeing it I really don't expect it. I'm referring to the fact that out of rottweilers that are serious in protection work I've never seen one that will consistently retrieve naturally. Many will go and chase down hard whatever you throw but they will not bring it back to you. I've tried evoking in them the desire to return by playing two stick/ball but it's a lost cause. Mind you I'm talking about serious rotts, not pet quality of which there are many more dogs and chances are much bigger that a natural retriever would be found in those numbers. Has anyone seen differently?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

No, I agree with you, a hard dominant male Rott is not going to give you the ball.

At best, he will drop it about 5 feet from you and make you go and get it, as he looks at you like his bitch. LOL

Lots of fun when you don't know what you did wrong.


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## Emilio Rodriguez

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> At best, he will drop it about 5 feet from you and make you go and get it, as he looks at you like his bitch. LOL


LOL that's what I'm talking about.


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## Connie Sutherland

Emilio Rodriguez said:


> LOL that's what I'm talking about.



I don't know any Rotts very well. This is actually a Rott trait, that you guys are agreeing on?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

For hard dominant Rotts, yes.


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## David Frost

Ahh it's just a training event. Make the dog bring it to hand.

DFrost


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## Jeff Oehlsen

HA. Thats a good one. The dog will rot in hell before he gives it to you without a forced retrieve.


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## Chris Michalek

I'm not saying my dog is hard but he ain't no softie either. I've never had an issue with him not bringing it to my hand. He tried that not bringing it to me shit and I wouldn't oblige him. Eventually he learned to bring it to me if he wanted to play or we go home.

So I have non dominant soft rott?


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## Skip Morgart

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> HA. Thats a good one. The dog will rot in hell before he gives it to you without a forced retrieve.


Not really. Some dogs just need different training methods, and there are many methods that would probably work before a forced retrieve was necessary.


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## Gary Garner

Stubborn and Mean go well with working Rotts..

This fella is the K9 on my unit...one tough mofo; :twisted:


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## Chris Michalek

I totally get stubborn and mean!


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## David Frost

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> HA. Thats a good one. The dog will rot in hell before he gives it to you without a forced retrieve.


Not true at all. I have a working Rottie, trained in drugs. He's a retrievieng machine. If he wasn't I wouldn't have selected him for training. He outs the ball on command, just like he does a sleeve or unlucky subject. 

DFrost


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## Andy Larrimore

I breed, handle and train working rottweilers. My K9 partner is a rottweiler. He will consistenly bring the ball back each time and wait for it to be thrown. In the begining he would refuse to give it up. This was easily and quickly corrected through training by using positive motivation. The reward for releasing the ball to your hand must be of a higher value then the ball that he is possessing.


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## Connie Sutherland

Andy Larrimore said:


> The reward for releasing the ball to your hand must be of a higher value then the ball that he is possessing.


In your dog's case, was it food? Or a favorite toy/ball?


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## Emilio Rodriguez

The idea was identifying a good degree of willingness in a pup which a natural retrieve would indicate. I've had many rotts, I can't remember one that would retrieve an object on his own consistently. The exception being throwing the object in the water and me standing at the water line with one rott I remember. Of the ones I'd call serious there definitely wasn't even one. All would go out and chase whatever you threw, but they wouldn't bring it back. It's like Jeff Oehlsen said, they'll come within about 10ft lie down and look at you. I never had a problem with any giving up an object but I'd have to go and get it. None that I remember would then attempt to play keep away and make me chase them for the object. One dominant rott I owned bit his new owner in the hand within a week of the transfer when the new owner attempted to take away a throw toy. I don't like handler aggressive dogs and the rotts I refer to in general when I say they don't retrieve were not handler aggressive dogs.

Training them to retrieve is another matter, sure they can be trained and a forced retrieve IMO being the only reliable way. It's nice to hear that there are serious rotts out there that retrieve. If someone says they've seen a serious rott that retrieves I have no reason not to believe them. But.. First there are exceptions to everything. Second if you didn't raise that dog you don't know what effort went into making the dog retrieve. Third I don't know the temperament of the dog in question, maybe the tendency to retrieve naturally in a rott goes counter some other quality that I really like to see in my dog. I don't even like having my rott play with a ball. If it would bring it back I probably would though because it's too easy a way to exercise it.

Still without the presence of a natural retrieve I find a good rott to be plenty trainable. For a long time I thought my rotts were lacking in directability because they never did. After all they are held to the same standards as the GSD in SCH for example and directability is critiqued so that threw me off. Later I came to accept it as part of the breed temperament and gave up on it as a way to exercise the dog even though I like throwing a stick for a dog, it's so classic. I found other ways to exercise. If I need a retrieve from a rott I'd go to a forced retrieve without wasting time with other methods.


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## Emilio Rodriguez

Skip Morgart said:


> Jeff Oehlsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> HA. Thats a good one. The dog will rot in hell before he gives it to you without a forced retrieve.
> 
> 
> 
> Not really. Some dogs just need different training methods, and there are many methods that would probably work before a forced retrieve was necessary.
Click to expand...

Your user name rung a bell so I looked at your posts and this post confirmed my guess, You are *(mod delete)
*
*MOD NOTE: What is this? A pandemic of drag-junk-from-one-board-to-another? This is the third one in a week!

It doesn't matter whether it's justified wrath or a personal flame war -- dragging stuff from other boards to this one is not going to fly.

Maybe new members have not seen this rule yet. Now you see it.  There are few rules here, but that's one of them.*


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## Skip Morgart

Emilio Rodriguez said:


> Your user name rung a bell so I looked at your posts and this post confirmed my guess, you are .... mod delete ....


I'm comfortable talking working dogs with anybody who's honest about what they do. 

** Mod delete remainder **


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## Andy Larrimore

Yes Connie, It was food


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## Skip Morgart

Andy Larrimore said:


> .... This was easily and quickly corrected through training by using positive motivation. The reward for releasing the ball to your hand must be of a higher value then the ball that he is possessing.


 
I really agree with this. I try to make the "reward" for bringing the object to be a much higher value item.


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## Emilio Rodriguez

Skip Morgart said:


> I'm comfortable talking working dogs with anybody who's honest about what they do.


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## Steve Strom

Skip Morgart said:


> I really agree with this. I try to make the "reward" for bringing the object to be a much higher value item.


Hey Skip, were you able to get a good retrieve with Shane with only rewards? no force at all?


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## Skip Morgart

Steve Strom said:


> Hey Skip, were you able to get a good retrieve with Shane with only rewards? no force at all?


I think they are pretty good without any force. We keep trying to improve. His retrieves during trials have been very good. He still mouths the dumbbell too much at times, but we're working on it. He's very food motivated, so that's what I usually use, but not for every retrieve. I try to keep him guessing. I try to keep the retrieve training sessions very short, and always end on a good note.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Not true at all. I have a working Rottie, trained in drugs. He's a retrievieng machine.

Was he hard and dominant????


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## Steve Strom

I think mine fits what you're talking about Emilio as far as being trainable. How would you guys look at a dog who has always returned with toys to tug but not give it? Won't do that with a sleeve though.


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## Steve Strom

Skip Morgart said:


> I think they are pretty good without any force. We keep trying to improve. His retrieves during trials have been very good. He still mouths the dumbbell too much at times, but we're working on it. He's very food motivated, so that's what I usually use, but not for every retrieve. I try to keep him guessing. I try to keep the retrieve training sessions very short, and always end on a good note.


That sound pretty much like us. I went back to the ball Sunday and it looked like a good switch. Picked up a lot of speed with no mouthing.


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## Emilio Rodriguez

Steve Strom said:


> I think mine fits what you're talking about Emilio as far as being trainable. How would you guys look at a dog who has always returned with toys to tug but not give it? Won't do that with a sleeve though.


I didn't really look at coming back with the tug toy as a retrieve but I guess there's an element of the retrieve in it. Take for example my dog now, he loves to tug and if I hold on to the tug he'll keep on doing it for longer than I can stick with it. But I don't want to let the tug go at that point because if I do he's going to go lie down with it a few feet away and then I have to go and take it away from him which I don't like to do. If we're at the very beginning of the game and he manages to get it without me intending to let go he'll prance around with it a little and bring it back to me for more. This is what you were talking about no? But not if we're into it for a few minutes already. For this reason when I want to end the game I out him.

The out is not something I make a lot of fuss over. I start it by putting my hand over his muzzle saying out and squeezing a bit. He's a sensitive dog to me in the first place and more so when it comes to this game. He's very careful not to take my fingers in his mouth and this is of his own accord, so the out comes easy. Like I said I never had a problem with the release. The first few times I let him have bite the tug again as soon as he lets go. Same like in bitework I don't let the dog be in a blind drive when I ask him to release. I don't however look at the tug thing as anything more than a game.

As far as giving up the sleeve I must assume you're talking about slipping it? Past the first few times I don't like to let the dog have it nor the suit for that matter. Makes the dog too prey oriented and sometimes equipment oriented. Good rotts tend to have too much of that in the first place.


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## Ian Forbes

Emilio Rodriguez said:


> I put this post in this section because I'm interested in the subject but only as it pertains to protection dogs. Hopefully there are some rottweiler enthusiasts here that can comment.I didn't say that you shouldn't expect it as I'd really love to see it but I guess that so many times not seeing it I really don't expect it. I'm referring to the fact that out of rottweilers that are serious in protection work I've never seen one that will consistently retrieve naturally. Many will go and chase down hard whatever you throw but they will not bring it back to you. I've tried evoking in them the desire to return by playing two stick/ball but it's a lost cause. Mind you I'm talking about serious rotts, not pet quality of which there are many more dogs and chances are much bigger that a natural retriever would be found in those numbers. Has anyone seen differently?


I disagree. I've seen Rotts that are serious in protection who are excellent retrievers. I've seen some of these dogs from pups and thay were just happy to retrieve all sorts of objects.

That is not to say that there weren't problems in training at times......


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## Ian Forbes

David Frost said:


> Ahh it's just a training event. Make the dog bring it to hand.
> 
> DFrost


I agree. At different times a dog (of any breed) may blow you off. You just have to find a way to fix it.


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## Ian Forbes

Emilio Rodriguez said:


> The idea was identifying a good degree of willingness in a pup which a natural retrieve would indicate. I've had many rotts, I can't remember one that would retrieve an object on his own consistently.


My experience with Rott pups is different. I think the problems come later on when the dog matures. At this time the dog starts to question what is in it for them.

Again, I just think this is a training issue. I don't think you can throw a toy for a Rottweiler all day and expect it to return it to hand all day, without some sort of reward.



> Training them to retrieve is another matter, sure they can be trained and a forced retrieve IMO being the only reliable way. It's nice to hear that there are serious rotts out there that retrieve. If someone says they've seen a serious rott that retrieves I have no reason not to believe them.


I'm not sure that there is only one way to get a reliable retrieve, but certainly some methods suit some dogs and owners better.



> But.. First there are exceptions to everything. Second if you didn't raise that dog you don't know what effort went into making the dog retrieve. Third I don't know the temperament of the dog in question, maybe the tendency to retrieve naturally in a rott goes counter some other quality that I really like to see in my dog. I don't even like having my rott play with a ball. If it would bring it back I probably would though because it's too easy a way to exercise it.


There are many variables. All I can say is what I have seen. I don't use retrieving as a way to exercise my dog, because I think this would quickly cause the dog to become bored with doing it properly.



> Still without the presence of a natural retrieve I find a good rott to be plenty trainable. For a long time I thought my rotts were lacking in directability because they never did. After all they are held to the same standards as the GSD in SCH for example and directability is critiqued so that threw me off. Later I came to accept it as part of the breed temperament and gave up on it as a way to exercise the dog even though I like throwing a stick for a dog, it's so classic. I found other ways to exercise. If I need a retrieve from a rott I'd go to a forced retrieve without wasting time with other methods.


This was my bitch at about 6 months. Since I got her she has always liked retrieving things. Sure there have been training issues at different times, but they were nothing more than that.


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## David Frost

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Not true at all. I have a working Rottie, trained in drugs. He's a retrievieng machine.
> 
> Was he hard and dominant????


as a brick and thinks he owns the world. They can learn, they just need to be taught. 

DFrost


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I put the dogs on the table and did a forced retrieve. So I guess, yes, they did learn to retrieve for me. I guess I should have clarified that there is no way that you were getting it done with a positive method.

I had a couple that would fight the forced retrieve and endured way more than any dog I have ever seen, and people I was working with have seen.

The work got too much for me as the dog was willing to fight me rather than go on the table after day one.

Quite possible that we have different versions of dominant, and hard.

Don't get me wrong, I never want to have a dog like that ever again. Too much.


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## Steve Strom

Emilio, I see it more like what David is saying. The fact that the dog wants to engage in something with you even if it means dropping the ball 10 feet away is what I like. The rest of it is training.


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## Steve Strom

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I put the dogs on the table and did a forced retrieve. So I guess, yes, they did learn to retrieve for me. I guess I should have clarified that there is no way that you were getting it done with a positive method.
> 
> I had a couple that would fight the forced retrieve and endured way more than any dog I have ever seen, and people I was working with have seen.
> 
> The work got too much for me as the dog was willing to fight me rather than go on the table after day one.
> 
> Quite possible that we have different versions of dominant, and hard.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I never want to have a dog like that ever again. Too much.


Hey Jeff, who were some of your dogs? Any that we could find in some of the pedigrees we can look up?


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## Emilio Rodriguez

Ian, I quoted just the parts of your post that I thought would help make my point, didn't mean to take it out of context.


Ian Forbes said:


> Again, I just think this is a training issue. *I don't think you can throw a toy for a Rottweiler all day and expect it to return it to hand all day, without some sort of reward*.
> 
> I'm not sure that there is only one way to get a reliable retrieve, but certainly some methods suit some dogs and owners better.
> 
> There are many variables. All I can say is what I have seen. I don't use retrieving as a way to exercise my dog, because *I think this would quickly cause the dog to become bored with doing it properly.*





Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quite possible that we have different versions of dominant, and hard.


Those two quotes sum up my thinking in the matter. I noticed that sport folk use a lot of motivational stuff and the mindset is evident when I see something like "The dog won't do it without some kind of reward" or "The dog will become bored". It sounds to me like they're always soliciting a reaction from the dog. Problem is if you're doing that then you'll always be stuck doing that. If a dog is doing a task for which it really has potential you don't need to keep soliciting the behavior from it. There's enough desire on the part of the dog to do it that you need to stop the behavior and only allow it when you want to. This is what I mean by a natural retrieve. You don't need to reward it, the actual retrieve is it's own reward. A dog that does this will do it for a long time and you'll get tired of it before he does. It will problem solve on it's own to find what it needs to do to get you to throw it again. Things like dropping it right in front of you and if you turn away picking it up and dropping it in front of you again, or nuzzle you with the object in his mouth. Getting it to let go of the object only in your hand is a little training but easy. If I have to use mind trick for the dog to bring me the object it's already training and not a natural retrieve. Being training I have no need to disguise it as motivational for my psychological well being. If I have to do training I move immediately to what works, compulsion, in this case the forced retrieve. If my dog was really into the retrieve I wouldn't worry at all about it getting bored so I'd play with it and exercise it that way. Play is play, business is business, and performance in a SCH trial is what it needs to be. The core of the dog doesn't change however and some parts of it are there to see at 8 weeks. I believe a natural retrieve is one of those things you can see at 8 weeks.


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## David Frost

One of the benefits of selecting dogs the way we do. The retrieve is the reward. If the dog doesn't have that drive, we simply won't select it. We use the retrieve as the primary reward for detection. If the dog doesn't have it to begin with, then we would just be wasting our time.

DFrost


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## Emilio Rodriguez

Emilio Rodriguez said:


> If a dog is doing a task for which it really has potential you don't need to keep soliciting the behavior from it. There's enough desire on the part of the dog to do it that you need to stop the behavior and only allow it when you want to. This is what I mean by a natural retrieve. You don't need to reward it, the actual retrieve is it's own reward. A dog that does this will do it for a long time and you'll get tired of it before he does. It will problem solve on it's own to find what it needs to do to get you to throw it again. Things like dropping it right in front of you and if you turn away picking it up and dropping it in front of you again, or nuzzle you with the object in his mouth.


I wanted to add for contrast that this is very different from a dog (in this case a serious rott) that goes out and gets the object because it likes the chase, comes back to the vicinity of the handler because it wants to be near, but then kicks into possession mode which overrides his desire to come in close contact with the handler.


David Frost said:


> One of the benefits of selecting dogs the way we do. The retrieve is the reward. If the dog doesn't have that drive, we simply won't select it. We use the retrieve as the primary reward for detection. If the dog doesn't have it to begin with, then we would just be wasting our time.


David, do you not usually look for this in GSD or mals? Do you expect to see this often in rotts?


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## Ian Forbes

Emilio Rodriguez said:


> Ian, I quoted just the parts of your post that I thought would help make my point, didn't mean to take it out of context.Those two quotes sum up my thinking in the matter. I noticed that sport folk use a lot of motivational stuff and the mindset is evident when I see something like "The dog won't do it without some kind of reward" or "The dog will become bored". It sounds to me like they're always soliciting a reaction from the dog.


My comments do not really relate to any particular training method. Dogs do things they find rewarding and tend not to do things that are unrewarding. Training takes advantage of this by either increasing the reward (or possibility of it) for desired behaviours and decreasing the reward for undesired behaviours.

I don't think this is soliciting a reaction from the dogs - it is just reinforcing behaviours that the dog naturally does.



> Problem is if you're doing that then you'll always be stuck doing that.


I don't find that to be the case. The potential for reward (whether given by me or self-reward) will mean a dog will perform the behaviour regardless and the potential for punishment will mean a dog will avoid undesired behaviours. 



> If a dog is doing a task for which it really has potential you don't need to keep soliciting the behavior from it. There's enough desire on the part of the dog to do it that you need to stop the behavior and only allow it when you want to.


As I said before, I don't see this as soliciting the behaviour, just reinforcing the natural behaviours. The dog has to find something rewarding to keep doing it.



> This is what I mean by a natural retrieve. You don't need to reward it, the actual retrieve is it's own reward. A dog that does this will do it for a long time and you'll get tired of it before he does. *It will problem solve on it's own to find what it needs to do to get you to throw it again. Things like dropping it right in front of you and if you turn away picking it up and dropping it in front of you again, or nuzzle you with the object in his mouth*.


I get what you are saying, but I've seen enough Rott pups do this. I think the reason they often stop doing it is that handlers stop makiing it fun for them.



> Getting it to let go of the object only in your hand is a little training but easy. If I have to use mind trick for the dog to bring me the object it's already training and not a natural retrieve. Being training I have no need to disguise it as motivational for my psychological well being. If I have to do training I move immediately to what works, compulsion, in this case the forced retrieve.


I have no need for mind tricks or disguising things as motivational or otherwise - I will use whatever works best for me and the dog (clicker, food, toy, long line, pinch collar, e-collar etc. etc.).



> If my dog was really into the retrieve I wouldn't worry at all about it getting bored so I'd play with it and exercise it that way. Play is play, business is business, and performance in a SCH trial is what it needs to be. The core of the dog doesn't change however and some parts of it are there to see at 8 weeks. I believe a natural retrieve is one of those things you can see at 8 weeks.


I agree that you can see it in an 8 week old pup. I have seen it quite a few times.


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## David Frost

Emilio Rodriguez said:


> David, do you not usually look for this in GSD or mals? Do you expect to see this often in rotts?


Yes, I would usually look for GSD's and mals. However, that doesn't preclude selection of other breeds. The criteria would be the same regardless of breed. I've tested several Rotts. In my experience, or at least with the ones I have tested, they generally do not have the level of drives I'm looking for or the stamina. That said, if a dog has what I'm looking for, breed becomes much less important. keep in mind, I don't test or procure puppies. My selection is based on behavior and health.

DFrost


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## Emilio Rodriguez

David, is a PSD in the US required to find and retrieve at any time as part of his job? I'm just curious, it doesn't have to do with the discussion.


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## David Frost

Emilio Rodriguez said:


> is a PSD in the US required to find and retrieve at any time as part of his job?



Depends on what the dog is being trained to do. A patrol dog is not trained to retrieve articles. (not in my program) However they are trained to locate and respond (down) on an article. A drug dog is trained to respond (either passive or aggressive) on drugs. They are not taught to retrieve the drugs. Obviously, an explosives detector is trained to give a passive response to explosives. The strong drive to retrieve is used as the reinforcement for these behaviors. the common thread in the training is the strong drive to retrieve. The retrieve is not a learned behavior in the dogs selected. 

DFrost


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## Jeff Oehlsen

David. Soon the retirement will hit you. Are you going to get a dog and do some Mondio ?????


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## Lisa Maze

To me a "natural retrieve" is other basic motivations combined. First the pup must have enough "prey" to orient towards and chase a moving object, then he must be oral enough to want to hold and carry the object. Finally his desire for social affiliation must override his possesiveness. 

If you have raised a dog from a pup and your dog does not retrieve willingly to hand you suck...sorry but true. I have raised many breeds from puppyhood and all have retreived willingly to hand including terriers (Border and Scottish), toys (Shih Tsu, Bichon, Poodle) and several others.

How a "natural" retrieve or the lack of is an indicator of a global temperament type in an eight week old pup is beyond me. Granted a pup with low desire for social affiliation and high possesiveness will take a little more talent to train but in the end if you are good, he will look the same (or better) than the pup with the "natural retrieve".

Lisa

PS Oops! I forgot Rottweilers are a species unto themselves. My bad!


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## David Frost

Jeff, if I do something with K9 when I retire it would be either F/R or Mondio. I might also do a little with those Lyda guys down in Georgia. They ain't wrapped all that tight, but they do have some good working dogs. I also have an interest in dock diving. Or, I may just find a comfortable spot, roll me a fattie and just chill..........

DFrost


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## Connie Sutherland

David Frost said:


> I might also do a little with those Lyda guys down in Georgia.


Accepted parlance is "them Lyda boys."


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: 
If you have raised a dog from a pup and your dog does not retrieve willingly to hand you suck...sorry but true.

I forgot about the extensive amount of decent Rotts that go through petsmart, #-o and I cannot remember for the life of me a Rott that was worth two ****s in a handbasket that came out of California.

Maybe you will consider that before you tell people that they suck. After all, I have a really good idea of what you think is a strong dog.

I can't bring back the past, but it is too bad, as I would love to let you raise one of my pups and tell me that they will bring the ball back to you without a forced retrieve. LOL


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## Chris Michalek

After having four pups come through here in the past two years. All of the rotties bring the ball and put it in my hand. The malinois pup won't. He plays that game where he drops it about 15ft from you and if you take a step he grabs it and runs. I've been walking back to the car when he does that. At least now he'll bring it most of the way back, drop it and run to where he thinks I might throw it.

I've figured out that if I use the kong with the rope he'll bring it back because he wants to play tug. So I reward him most of the time with tug and then I out him. He always brings sleeves, pillows and tugs to me but never the ball.

So far, my male rott showed me he was a lot more dominant and possessive than the Mal. The mal seems to have better nerve but I don't think he'll be as hard or serious as my rott. Maybe because I bought him expecting him to be more dog than the rottie.

Do you recommend that I kick him in the head jeff? Is that what you would do?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Just because your Rott is dominant over YOU, doesn't really make him dominant and hard. Ya might be confused as to what you have in front of you.

On the other hand, try kicking your Rott in the head. If nothing happens to you, this would show you. That is a good test for you. =D> =D> =D>


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## Emilio Rodriguez

Lisa Maze said:


> To me a "natural retrieve" is other basic motivations combined. First the pup must have enough "prey" to orient towards and chase a moving object, then he must be oral enough to want to hold and carry the object. *Finally his desire for social affiliation must override his possesiveness.*


That last part probably is where the early indication of directability is. As far as the first two I don't see the need to separate them, chasing is usually followed by grabbing. I've seen very few dogs that will chase and lose interest when they get to the object thrown.


Lisa Maze said:


> If you have raised a dog from a pup and your dog does not retrieve willingly to hand you suck...sorry but true. I have raised many breeds from puppyhood and all have retreived willingly to hand including terriers (Border and Scottish), toys (Shih Tsu, Bichon, Poodle) and several others.
> 
> How a "natural" retrieve or the lack of is an indicator of a global temperament type in an eight week old pup is beyond me. *Granted a pup with low desire for social affiliation and high possesiveness will take a little more talent to train* but in the end if you are good, he will look the same (or better) than the pup with the "natural retrieve".
> 
> Lisa
> 
> PS Oops! I forgot Rottweilers are a species unto themselves. My bad!


Well that implies that I suck because I stated that all my rotts did not retrieve naturally. Sorry babe but you suck. It's like saying that if you raise any dog if it doesn't have the balls in maturity to confront a human aggressor then you failed. Obviously this is not the case because few are the dogs that are mentally ready to take on a human, especially with little or no training. Your statement flies in the face of all selection testing. Besides you answered your own question there. Why start with something that's less than good.

Rotts they have advantages and disadvantages. For me as far as personal and home protection and man stopping power the balance is just right. They are a unique breed in this respect. Playing retrieve games is something I'm willing to give up in favor of other attributes.


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## Chris Michalek

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Just because your Rott is dominant over YOU, doesn't really make him dominant and hard. Ya might be confused as to what you have in front of you.
> 
> On the other hand, try kicking your Rott in the head. If nothing happens to you, this would show you. That is a good test for you. =D> =D> =D>



OK, I kicked him in the head. He's just kinda laying there doing nothing except twitching every few seconds. He's done nothing to me, what is this supposed to show me?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Here kitty kitty, HERE KITTY KITTY. LOL


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## Mike Scheiber

Nice nice to see so many Rottweiler experts on the board


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## David Frost

Connie Sutherland said:


> Accepted parlance is "them Lyda boys."


Yes ma'am, also acceptable is: them thar Lyda boys.

DFrost


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## David Frost

Mike Scheiber said:


> Nice nice to see so many Rottweiler experts on the board


I'm not an expert on any particular breed. I do, however, know how to pick dogs that I can train for a specific task or tasks.

DFrost


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## Mike Scheiber

David Frost said:


> I'm not an expert on any particular breed. I do, however, know how to pick dogs that I can train for a specific task or tasks.
> 
> DFrost


And this is exactly why I left the Rottweiler I became a Schutzhund guy to much of a ordeal and heart break to find a decent dog and I'm not that great of a dog trainer to be able to be 1/2 way competitive with one also a good one just comes with to much baggage.


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## Emilio Rodriguez

I agree but when you find a good one it's sweeeet! Then you just stick to the same lines. BTW I was under the impression that it's hard to find a good GSD too?


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## Lisa Maze

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote:
> If you have raised a dog from a pup and your dog does not retrieve willingly to hand you suck...sorry but true.
> 
> I forgot about the extensive amount of decent Rotts that go through petsmart, #-o and I cannot remember for the life of me a Rott that was worth two ****s in a handbasket that came out of California.
> 
> Maybe you will consider that before you tell people that they suck. After all, I have a really good idea of what you think is a strong dog.
> 
> I can't bring back the past, but it is too bad, as I would love to let you raise one of my pups and tell me that they will bring the ball back to you without a forced retrieve. LOL


I am totally comfortable telling people they suck...how a dog retrieves as an adult is about training not genetics (with the exception of speed and style of pick up to some extent).

As far as you knowing what I consider a "strong" dog...I don't run around talking about "strong" dogs or "hard" dogs or "dominant" dogs. Unlike people, I do not describe dogs in such simplistic terms. I am however prone to identifying people as say "crazy" or "full of shit".

No, you cannot bring back the past but you sure spend a lot of time reliving it. Hand me a Rottweiler pup and I will teach it to retrieve to hand with a big smile on its face. 

As far as good Rottweilers coming out of CA. I beg to differ as I have known many "good" Rottweilers in the LA/San Diego area. Never paid enough attention to catch their names but Kadi or Laura could probably fill you in.

Lisa


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## Chris Michalek

Lisa Maze said:


> I am totally comfortable telling people they suck...how a dog retrieves as an adult is about training not genetics (with the exception of speed and style of pick up to some extent).
> 
> As far as you knowing what I consider a "strong" dog...I don't run around talking about "strong" dogs or "hard" dogs or "dominant" dogs. Unlike people, I do not describe dogs in such simplistic terms. I am however prone to identifying people as say "crazy" or "full of shit".
> 
> No, you cannot bring back the past but you sure spend a lot of time reliving it. Hand me a Rottweiler pup and I will teach it to retrieve to hand with a big smile on its face.
> 
> As far as good Rottweilers coming out of CA. I beg to differ as I have known many "good" Rottweilers in the LA/San Diego area. Never paid enough attention to catch their names but Kadi or Laura could probably fill you in.
> 
> Lisa



speaking of crazy... I've been working with Joe Flores lately. He says you know him and I should talk to you sometime.... anyway Joe is crazy to take the bites he does. He has a nice scar on his triceps from my dog who bite through the suit and tried to retrieve the decoy for me. Good dog! \\/


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## Lisa Maze

Chris Michalek said:


> speaking of crazy... I've been working with Joe Flores lately. He says you know him and I should talk to you sometime.... anyway Joe is crazy to take the bites he does. He has a nice scar on his triceps from my dog who bite through the suit and tried to retrieve the decoy for me. Good dog! \\/


Who me? Joe Flores? I am a dingbat blonde so need more info. I have been doing this dog thing long enough that I get folks mixed up...more info please.

Lisa


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## Chris Michalek

Lisa Maze said:


> Who me? Joe Flores? I am a dingbat blonde so need more info. I have been doing this dog thing long enough that I get folks mixed up...more info please.
> 
> Lisa


maybe you'll recognize him in this vid

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-_uw6yKdKU


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Hand me a Rottweiler pup and I will teach it to retrieve to hand with a big smile on its face.

Hey dingbat, not what we where talking about. I know that reading comprehension is not your thing, so go back and read the first post.

See you at training tomorrow.:grin:


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## Kadi Thingvall

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Here kitty kitty, HERE KITTY KITTY. LOL


I knew a Rotti named Kitty once, her owner tried your advice (OK, he didn't actually kick her, he tried to alpha roll her), saw him a few days later after he got out of the hospital. 

There is a nice Rotti in the Escondido Sch club (SCWDA) owned by a lady named LB. I can't remember the dogs name off hand but I am sure Laura knows it. I have no idea where he's from originally, ie US bred, import, etc.


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## Mike Scheiber

A couple of weeks ago a guy showed up at our club with a really nice SCH I bitch he imported from Yugoslavia. She is one of the nicest bitches I have ever had the pleasure to watch work. 
Not all this thrash and destroy the sleeve bullshit monster full calm grips nice sleve carry and hold not growly great barking and yes she dose retrieve we haven't lit her up yet but doesnt seem to have any stick issues and she is very easy on the eyes nice fricken bitch.


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## Al Lewis

Rotties, like any dog, was bred for specific reasons. As a rottie owner, I am devoted to the breed, so with that I take the limitations with the excellence, as the whole rottie brings what I like to the table. Yes, it can be a challenge in training certain things but that is true with any dog. Owning a rottie, makes me a better trainer, because they do not have Mal type drive and endurance, but they are capable of competing and doing well in dog sports and as PPDs. Plus they do not have those funny pointed ears!

Of those of you with serious working rotties, anyone care to share particular bloodlines, breeders and or specific dogs?


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## Tanya Beka

I own a 3 year old rottweiler of "poor" bloodlines. He was bred for money, no other reason, and sold to a client of mine. After one in-home lesson with them and a "puppy test" at 8 weeks old, they decided that they would rather renovate their house than raise a puppy. They called me the next day, asked me if I knew of a good home for him, when I offered to take him, they gave him to me.

The reasons I was called was that he was nipping them when they tried to make him do anything, wouldn't come when called, and was a bit of a "harder dog" than they expected. 

His puppy test results:

- didn't come at all when called
- didn't follow me when I called him and ran away
- didn't struggle when held on his back
- licked my hand after restraint and then walked away
- struggled/settled/struggled/settled when elevated
- Chased object on retrieve test and ran away with it
- not touch sensitive (9 to 10 counts to respond to pinching toe test)
- on noise made he located it and showed curiosity
- on moving object test, attempted to investigate

Kind of neat to look back on how he was at 8 weeks.

Anyways, my point is that he had little interest in retrieving, he couldn't care less about visiting me, he was quite independent and nippy at 8 weeks.

After working with him once he was my dog, he retrieves perfectly EVERY TIME, right to my hand or to my feet if I'm not fast enough, fetch in water and swim out and get the object and bring it back to me EVERY TIME, he comes RELIABLY almost all the time (except when wandering in the back field sniffing wild animals), he loves to bite the sleeve and OUTS PERFECTLY on first request every time, he can find his ball or any other toy he likes ANYWHERE and will search until he find it then BRINGS IT BACK TO ME, he will carry any object that I ask him to "Take" and bring it where I want it...he can basically do anything I *direct *him to learn and praise him for. 

Things I haven't been able to teach him yet:

- close the door after you come in (he's too busy visiting me and saying hi and wiggling like an idiot)
- stop biting my sleeve and turning into a nutbar when we try to do agility - concentrate dammit!


This is a dog from a "puppy mill" so to speak, has HD, bad cruciate, but will do anything for me that I try to teach him. He was horrible for his other owners because they didn't know how to raise him properly. The next dog those people got (a dobie) ended up biting children and deemed dangerous by the city - not sure if it has been destroyed yet or not, they refuse to listen to common sense.

Point is, rotties are capable of learning and being directed just like other dogs, you just need to know how to communicate with them. Try to teach them a forced retrieve and they'll swear at you. Turn it into a FUN GAME and they'll bring it back every time. 

My boy has such a zest for life. I've seen another dog from that same kennel, same parents, different litter. This dog is fearful, sketchy, no energy, doesn't do anything yadda yadda yadda.

Training is the key. Learning how to work WITH the dog, instead of against it. Especially with "stubborn" independent dogs like rotties.

Let the flaming begin.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

No need to flame. You worked hard with a dog and got some good results. But to say that your Rott is on the same level as other Rotts...................


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## Mike Scheiber

You have to know how to drive/handle a Rottweiler In our club we have the current USRC national champion 
This handler had held this title with 3 different dogs. It is amazing seeing all three of these dogs work almost the same though 2 were father and son the other was not. They are puddy like any other dog. You just need special hands to train them.
Sounds like you have done a great job with this dog many of the poorly bred dogs end up in trouble like the dobie.
But don't think a Rottweiler with proper temperament is a piece of cake. They should be closer to a monster than not I have to agree with Jeff there ain't many around.
This particular handler in our club who has been one of the the big ballers in the Rottweiler crew for over the last 20 years may have to import her first dog because there ain't any thing here in the US worth 2 shits that's producing.


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## Connie Sutherland

What is puddy?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Clay, putty. ect.


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## Gerry Grimwood

East coast putty.


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## Connie Sutherland

Gerry Grimwood said:


> East coast putty.




Ah. Gotcha! :lol:


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## Emilio Rodriguez

Tanya, a sincere congrats on having a dog that you appreciate and achieved so much with.

I've seen time and time again people make blanket statements based on their experience with one representative of a breed. It takes getting to know many individuals of a breed to get an idea of what temperament is representative of this breed. To understand my point in this thread you'd have had to own a few serious dominant rotts. Your whole point seems to based on your experience with one dog. The dog has not been qualified as a serious dominant dog based on the puppy test results you provided. What you qualified was the previous owners. I'd ask directly how many rottweilers you owned but am reluctant to put you on the spot. I don't particularly care if in this thread the course of the discussion would seem to indicate that rotts are sweet easy to deal with dogs. It is what it is.


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## Mike Scheiber

Gerry Grimwood said:


> East coast putty.


Minnesota its puddy


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## Tanya Beka

Emilio Rodriguez said:


> Tanya, a sincere congrats on having a dog that you appreciate and achieved so much with.
> 
> I've seen time and time again people make blanket statements based on their experience with one representative of a breed. It takes getting to know many individuals of a breed to get an idea of what temperament is representative of this breed. To understand my point in this thread you'd have had to own a few serious dominant rotts. Your whole point seems to based on your experience with one dog. The dog has not been qualified as a serious dominant dog based on the puppy test results you provided. What you qualified was the previous owners. I'd ask directly how many rottweilers you owned but am reluctant to put you on the spot. I don't particularly care if in this thread the course of the discussion would seem to indicate that rotts are sweet easy to deal with dogs. It is what it is.


I completely agree with you. I have only owned one rott so far - but I know he will not be my last. 

I have worked with and helped train many others and I have seen some pretty scary hard rotts that I wouldn't go anywhere near, as I would probably get killed. 

No, my rott is not one of those "serious dominant" rotts. My point was that had he been raised in a different manner and in a different household, he could have been more of a "serious dominant" rott. I socialized him like crazy from day one - in the pet store, in the bank, outside the shopping mall, outside the grocery store, outside a school yard with kids running and playing etc. I can tell you that there were times I wanted to throttle him - he was a very tough puppy to raise, very stubborn, very independent, very mouthy in more ways than one - but I kept socializing and training and now that he's matured, he's great (for the most part). But had he stayed with the other family, or went to a different place, he could have never learned to retrieve, he may have never learned an "out", he may have mauled a child in "play". He had all that potential, but I redirected it and gave him "jobs" to do to keep him out of trouble.

In short, my point is that while genetics plays a part, training and socializing and working with a dog plays another huge part and can actually teach a dog to do things that they may not have in them naturally just by bringing it out in them in a way that they understand. Education is a large part of what a dog can do. Maybe in a few years I will get what people refer to as a "hard, dominant" rott and show you that they too can retrieve, have fun playing ball and still kick butt in dog sports or PP. There CAN be a nice balance and I think that is the best type of dog to have.

Just my thoughts.


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## Ian Forbes

I'm a bit puzzled by some of the posts in this thread. Rottweilers are dogs - nothing more, nothing less. Within the breed there are variations and each individual will have an idea of what is ideal.

Sure Rottweilers can be stubborn (so best to think of smart ways round problems, rather than trying to use force). Rottweilers tend to have a high pain threshold (in fact they tend to have pretty high stimulus thresholds generally), so again you need to bear this in mind when training.

I've seen quite a lot of decent European working Rottweilers and while they can be 'dominant', some are aloof with strangers, some are 'serious', they are not so different to good dogs of other breeds IMO.....


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## Jeff Oehlsen

QUOTE: Maybe in a few years I will get what people refer to as a "hard, dominant" rott and show you that they too can retrieve, have fun playing ball and still kick butt in dog sports or PP. There CAN be a nice balance and I think that is the best type of dog to have.

Good luck finding your new dog.


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## Chris Michalek

what's your definition of hard?

maybe I'll start a new thread.


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