# Castor de Groot bloodline?



## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

I know Mike would have the most info, but since multiple other people have dogs from this line...




Have you noticed that the dogs are social but very serious in the bite work? Mine is, his father apparently was, another police K9 on this board is...


It looks like I got what I wanted, a social dog with a will to please, but one with a very serious side. I would think that would be everyone's ideal for a protection/working dog (unless someone wanted a sharp/dangerous dog to be a deterrent to everyone around). 

I was a bit surprised, given Arko's hardcore reputation, and that makes me wonder about the nature vs nurture issue


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Matt Grosch said:


> I know Mike would have the most info, but since multiple other people have dogs from this line...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have a Castor grandson through Arko. He is a very social dog, but has vey strong fight drive. He doesnt care about anything, or anyone. He doesnt have a huge will to please and can be a bit stubborn.
I think the way Arko is has alot to do with his upbringing. His first owner (Maatman) apparently likes his dogs to be very aggressive, and so the dogs get taught not to trust strangers etc. Also the stuff that Arko had to put up with during his training was pretty brutal as well.
Gerben is proberbly the one on this list to give some information on Castor.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Ringo, full brother to Arko is very social. I sold a castor son from one of the last litters out of Castor bred to a Castor daughter with Arko on the bottom side which means there is also Castor behind that side as well and that dog is somewhere between Arko and Ringo in terms of being social. But is also a hammer in the work. 
I have seen several Castor line dogs that were social, some were not social at all. All of them were good biters with hard attacks.


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

There really isn't alot of people that have seen Arko work. Mike does a great job at promoting his kennel and Arko


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## Dave Martin (Aug 11, 2010)

mike suttle said:


> I have seen several Castor line dogs that were social, some were not social at all. All of them were good biters with hard attacks.


Mike, do you believe those particular dogs were really unsocial by nature or do you think it's probably how they were raised?


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## Shane Woodlief (Sep 9, 2009)

todd pavlus said:


> There really isn't alot of people that have seen Arko work. Mike does a great job at promoting his kennel and Arko


Todd, offspring speaks for itself! Word of mouth from satisfied customers is always the best marketing tool!


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

todd pavlus said:


> There really isn't alot of people that have seen Arko work. Mike does a great job at promoting his kennel and Arko




I never thought it was the reputation arko has, but the reputation of mike and the dogs that come from him have.


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## eric squires (Oct 16, 2008)

I have a Line bred grandson of Arko. He is by a son of Arko and out of a daughter of Arko. He is social,but very serious in the bitework. Also handler aggressive if pushed.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Just for balance, I had an Arko son and to be fair to Mike S. he wasn't out of his breedings.

The dog had problems, ask Dick or Selena..I asked their opinions on a couple of videos, I think they might remember.

You can't clump all these dogs together and expect them to be the same.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Just for balance, I had an Arko son and to be fair to Mike S. he wasn't out of his breedings.
> 
> The dog had problems, ask Dick or Selena..I asked their opinions on a couple of videos, I think they might remember.
> 
> You can't clump all these dogs together and expect them to be the same.


Gerry, do you still have those videos? If so can you post them here, I remember seeing one of them but it has been a while.


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## chris race (Feb 9, 2010)

I own the dog that Mike mentioned. The Castor son bred back to a Arko daughter. He is always happy to work great drives and is an absolute hammer on the suit or sleeve. He is neutral to strangers, his attention is always focused on me. In short he is perfect for what I was looking for. I have spoke to Mike Suttle, Gerben, and Bert Kikkert in depth about this line and all three conversations were about the same. Some are social some or not. I wouldn't say my guy is going to run up and give you a kiss or let you pet him but I could heel him through a crowd no problem. The things that I see this line consistently produces are Great drives, hard attacks, awesome bites, and solid nerves.

Chris


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

What is "social" to you?

I have the idea that not ever one is at the same spot on how to see it. So, for the sake of the discussion, what is your idea by "social".


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## kamphuis gerben (Jan 29, 2009)

castor i worked him in the suit saw him train and breed 
type of dog quit serious very good biter and attacks 
not an easy dog to train because of his dominand caracter 
produced very good ofspring 
most of his ofspring were social i mean they would not bite anyone whith no reason but were 
real policedogs so could bite and would bite whith not much of a reason 
plus they were very impressive dogs 
another very strong point is the health i never heard of any of his ofspring to have any boneproblem 
always good hipps ellbows no spondylosis 
plus they were very good movers very agile dogs aldough often very big heavy dogs 
in my eyes a very good dog to improve thoughness ,dominance strong punishing gripps and health 
greetings gerben


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> What is "social" to you?
> 
> I have the idea that not ever one is at the same spot on how to see it. So, for the sake of the discussion, what is your idea by "social".


I'm very glad you asked that question because it was on my mind as well.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Matt Grosch said:


> I was a bit surprised, given Arko's hardcore reputation, and that makes me wonder about the nature vs nurture issue


Maybe it's hype and bullshit vs reality?


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

mike suttle said:


> Gerry, do you still have those videos? If so can you post them here, I remember seeing one of them but it has been a while.


I deleted them.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

mike suttle said:


> Gerry, do you still have those videos? If so can you post them here, I remember seeing one of them but it has been a while.


I don't know if you saw the vids I was referring to now that I think of it.

BRN13419 was the dog I'm talking about.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

http://video.tinypic.com/player.php?v=4zmicsg
I just went back through my e mail and found this one from when he was a little baby. This puppy was from Arko and Bella 2 Hoek.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Christopher Smith said:


> Maybe it's hype and bullshit vs reality?


I guess you would have to ask the people who have worked him about that! LOL


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

mike suttle said:


> http://video.tinypic.com/player.php?v=4zmicsg
> I just went back through my e mail and found this one from when he was a little baby. This puppy was from Arko and Bella 2 Hoek.


Yes,thanks for not deleting that.

You know I've never claimed to be an expert...that's the way the pup came straight out of the box, by the time he was 1 yr he would get so mental when anyone came around it was just nuts.

He spun alot when he got worked up, once he hit my knee with his head in a spin and I thought he broke my leg, I'm not ****ing kidding even a little. I tried to send him to you but that didn't work out..I tried him with someone else and he bit the shit outa him.

That dog was crazy. I dunno, maybe the leave them to be themselves for the first year just wont work with all dogs.

I'm sorry.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> I guess you would have to ask the people who have worked him about that! LOL


I did have a laugh about his comment as well. I guess his Mali must be the real deal and Arko hype? 
lol
Or maybe he is just jealous that no one ranks his dog like they do Arko.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Smiths dog was cringing in a tracking video. Please. He does Sch and believes that cringing is normal. Can you imagine the look on his face if he actually had a dog ? Why did he bite me ? HA HA

Gerry. Look at the video again. Watch the puppy frustrate because he cannot go and explore. The dutch dogs that I have seen go bonkers in drive when held back. That sends them off the charts. What you were doing was loading the dog. 

What do I know though ? LOL I would expect the results you got just from watching that video, and that dog.

Now if Smith can just post Ash's jump video, I will get off of this thread.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Christopher Jones said:


> I did have a laugh about his comment as well. I guess his Mali must be the real deal and Arko hype?
> lol
> Or maybe he is just jealous that no one ranks his dog like they do Arko.


Hey everything said about the dog might be true. He might be the greatest dog in the world. But it might also be hype. I don't know. I just wantwed to give Matt another possibility other than nature vs nurture.

As far as my dog goes, he be what he be and I'll like him no matter what he be.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Jeff, I´ve seen vid of him a bit older (about 9 mo-1 yo if I remember well), dog chased his own tail .
out of frustation for example. In this vid his behavior ain't that bad imo. In the later vid it got worse, and working him to canalize his frustation didn't worked out (enough) for Gerry.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Smiths dog was cringing in a tracking video. Please. He does Sch and believes that cringing is normal. Can you imagine the look on his face if he actually had a dog ? Why did he bite me ? HA HA
> 
> Gerry. Look at the video again. Watch the puppy frustrate because he cannot go and explore. The dutch dogs that I have seen go bonkers in drive when held back. That sends them off the charts. What you were doing was loading the dog.
> 
> ...


I'll post this 'cause I know it makes you happy! :razz: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrUDWv99GVM

Posting Ash's "jumping" (I would call it a stumbling, falling, non-biting clusterf**k.) video just makes people sad. Oh so very, very sad....:sad:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Jeff, I´ve seen vid of him a bit older (about 9 mo-1 yo if I remember well), dog chased his own tail .
out of frustation for example. In this vid his behavior ain't that bad imo. In the later vid it got worse, and working him to canalize his frustation didn't worked out (enough) for Gerry.

I would think that would be the progression with a dog like that. I could see how someone would just not want to risk having his dog near people for fear of him biting. 

With the dog being so young, and not being mature enough to deal with his drives, and ( I do not know) no focus being put on the dog like here bite this, look for that, training stuff, what you are saying would be what I would think the progression would be.

I am not saying that he did anything on purpose, but that he got a dog that was just way beyond where he was as a dog handler.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: I would call it a stumbling, falling, non-biting clusterf**k

But that just takes us back to your cringing dog. If the dog is cringing on the tracking field, then why would your opinion count for **** all ever ? Oh thats right, it doesn't.

Show us the video of your dog having to have behavior shaped in the B&H because he just doesn't have it naturally.

Buko was returned because he didn't want to bite at that age as well. Ooops, brilliant boy never thought about a late maturing pup. So much for your ability to read a dog.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

I sometimes wonder what social is too everyone and more often I wonder what A GOOD DOG is, as it varies from person to person. A dog so extreme that he can barely be handled by some of the best handlers and nothing is ever 100% guarantted about his behavior makes me question what some are after. For some it's a big spaze that is unconteollable who spins and will bite anybody including his own tale. I don't know the dog Gerry is speaking of or the video of when it's older but I do know that some people would think a dog that was described is a MONSTER. I'd think it was a dumb ****ing idiot like the kids that I grew up with that were in the special classes(not special Ed but learning disabilty) ,you know the kids that would spaze out in regular classes. Usually overtly aggressive and basically unteachable and now filling jail cells. Not much different than their equals who spend their whole life in a kennel cause they can't be handled but are bred for this extreme retartedness!


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> What is "social" to you?
> 
> I have the idea that not ever one is at the same spot on how to see it. So, for the sake of the discussion, what is your idea by "social".





first, I have still been training him in prey for the most part, although pressure is put on him when on the bite



I call him social because he likes everyone (but gets very serious when its time to train), loves kids, and all the firefighters when I take him to the station


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

also my trainer (PSA champion), and the guy that boards him (#1 american in schutzhund) said he is a social, stable dog and not one that you would have to worry about, around your family/etc


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Matt Grosch said:


> first, I have still been training him in prey for the most part, although pressure is put on him when on the bite
> 
> 
> 
> I call him social because he likes everyone (but gets very serious when its time to train), loves kids, and all the firefighters when I take him to the station


I'm not one that anyone should take as knowledgeble about what is what but I still have an opinion, I don't think a serious dog should be very social.

I know.. I seem to ride that fine line betwen a fart and a turd, someday I may own one and I will post video :lol:


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

I dont know....Ive always been a fan of the Dalton-principle

be nice, until its time......to not be nice




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ikfz-S6Tjo


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I'm not one that anyone should take as knowledgeble about what is what but I still have an opinion, I don't think a serious dog should be very social.
> :


I know that if I were a street cop I'd take a strong DS for sure! There are plenty of mals that can do the job as well but after witnessing the strength of these DS's your not beating him off a bite so to know that dog will be there when the going got tough is everything! Again not saying there aren't malinois that can do it in some litters but the chances of getting a bull headed fighter is better with the DS. They are much harder for ME to train and progress is slower but I can see why people want them for street work.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Timothy Stacy said:


> I know that if I were a street cop I'd take a strong DS for sure! There are plenty of mals that can do the job as well but after witnessing the strength of these DS's your not beating him off a bite so to know that dog will be there when the going got tough is everything! Again not saying there aren't malinois that can do it in some litters but the chances of getting a bull headed fighter is better with the DS. They are much harder for ME to train and progress is slower but I can see why people want them for street work.


 

Are we talking DS or just a bloodline?


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Timothy Stacy said:


> I know that if I were a street cop I'd take a strong DS for sure! There are plenty of mals that can do the job as well but after witnessing the strength of these DS's your not beating him off a bite so to know that dog will be there when the going got tough is everything! Again not saying there aren't malinois that can do it in some litters but the chances of getting a bull headed fighter is better with the DS. They are much harder for ME to train and progress is slower but I can see why people want them for street work.


So after playin with both your Malis and also Vitor, which type do you prefer for yourself? Or would you be looking for some sort of combination of both?


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

@Jody. Bliodline of DS

Chris, I guess it depends what I'm doing. For sport work I'd take a mal as they mature and progress more quickly and are more willing to please. Vitor is a tough dog but Dick is right, they mature slow! 
For Police I'd take a VL DS. I guess some people had purpose behind their breedings for the last 30 years. Above anything I see know is there resiliency toward handler and helper.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Christopher Jones said:


> So after playin with both your Malis and also Vitor, which type do you prefer for yourself? Or would you be looking for some sort of combination of both?


It would be nice to have a sprinkle of willingness in the DS. I was telling somebody last night how shocked I am by his jumping ability and speed for such a big boy. Don't get me wrong he is not French Malinois type but he can move!


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

Timothy Stacy said:


> It would be nice to have a sprinkle of willingness in the DS. I was telling somebody last night how shocked I am by his jumping ability and speed for such a big boy. Don't get me wrong he is not French Malinois type but he can move!



a big part of the reason I got the dog I did, castor on both sides, was his will to please, his dad had it too


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Matt Grosch said:


> a big part of the reason I got the dog I did, castor on both sides, was his will to please, his dad had it too


My male has castor on the top and then Tommy on the bottom. Tommy is a pretty stubborn dog with not as much will to please as a dog like Rudie has. So thats came across in Boy.


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

I dont get why anyone would ever want a dog with no will to please, unless he is just so much tougher that its worth it, but I dont know if that is likely.


When I smartened up and jumped over from the bully breeds I had a hard time grasping how anyone would think I dog that would bite their handler was somehow extra awesome... (and I mean, on purpose, not a spun up venting of frustration)


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: 
When I smartened up and jumped over from the bully breeds I had a hard time grasping how anyone would think I dog that would bite their handler was somehow extra awesome..

Nope, not any smarter, still a bully breed mentality. Wait till you have a dog bite you so hard that you have parts that still don't work right and see if you are all gung ho on a dog that does that stupid stupid shit.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Timothy Stacy said:


> It would be nice to have a sprinkle of willingness in the DS.


It is something we have to watch in our breedingrpogram indeed, a bit more stubborn and they will be very hard to train.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> It is something we have to watch in our breedingrpogram indeed, a bit more stubborn and they will be very hard to train.


Oh don't get me wrong, he's trainable! Sit, down, he retrieves(not perfect), climbs a 6 foot ladder onto the roof. Just more stubborn than I'm used to, and he really hasn't been worked much. Now you want to talk about being in a fight, that is where he exceeds!


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

How old is that dog of yours Tim ?? What does he weigh ??

I wont ask how wide his head is :lol:


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> How old is that dog of yours Tim ?? What does he weigh ??
> 
> I wont ask how wide his head is :lol:


I think he will be 8 months on the 23rd if this month but don't quote me on that. He must weigh 60 to 65 pounds, Comparing him to my 5 year old male malinois. His head is the same size of the mal but a tad wider and longer, but I think there is a lot more growing. I also don't have other DS's to compare him too and I don't know.


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## Loring Cox (Sep 6, 2008)

My dog (actually the PD's) is a Castor Son and a Arko grandson on the bottom. His BRN is 11040 if you'd like to see the whole line. Unfortunately him mother died giving birth to him and was her first litter so I can't really say how much of his traits come from her...

Nicky is a little bit of an odd dog because he is extremely friendly. As in he actively seeks out affection from anyone he can. It is way beyond being social, he really loves people. When we were in patrol school I almost returned him because he really never showed any defense aggression or need to protect himself from "threats." He does not put on the big show of barking and looking scary with gnashing teeth. He just stares at you until you get close enough to bite. He did really well in all of the training except muzzle work. When he found he could not bite after the first really strong hit, he would lose interst and get confused. He is not dominant, dog aggressive, or handler aggressive in any way. Very much unlike the terms I've heard used to describe the dogs that his brother Arko throws.

But on the other side of the coin he also has an over the top love of biting things. If I tell him to bite something he will bite it no question. Be it a person, stick, tire, tree, car bumper, tug, whatever. If he can physically get his teeth on it, he will bite it and hold onto it like his life depended on it. His first suspect bite was a no doubter and he showed no confusion at all about biting flesh. All of the bites after that have been the same way. 

He also is a very easy dog to train. He has amazing food drive and play drive. He responded very well to a marker system of training in his obedience and detection. He is very clear about the differences in suspect, article, and narcotic searching. He is very eager to please in training and I think really loves the work.

The only other thing I can add is that Gregg Tawney asked me about breeding hiim to his last PH1 Bitch that he imported. He really liked Nicky's personality and the way he worked. But after talking/emailing Mike Suttle about Arko and the pups that he throws, we both agreed that Nicky is probably the exception to the line and decided not to do the breeding.


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## kristin tresidder (Oct 23, 2008)

Loring Cox said:


> Nicky is a little bit of an odd dog because he is extremely friendly. As in he actively seeks out affection from anyone he can. It is way beyond being social, he really loves people... He is not dominant, dog aggressive, or handler aggressive in any way.


by internet logic, you best return him asap, as he's clearly not a 'real' dog... LOL


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

thats how mine is, seeks out attention from everyone which is why everyone likes me to bring him to the fire station, even had guys not believe he can be an 'attack dog' because he seems so friendly

gets super excited around little kids trying to lick them, tail starts wagging so fast you cant see it


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## Jack Roberts (Sep 5, 2008)

I see no problem with a social dog. It just shows me that the dog does not have a fear of people. The dog is comfortable around everyone. As long as the dog brings it when needed then you get the best of both worlds.

You have a dog that you can bring places and also a dog that will bite when needed.

It is just my personal opinion, but I will take a nice social dog any day. If you look at some of the requirements by the government then you will see that a social dog is one of the requirements when testing dogs in their program.

People like different dogs but I like bringing my dogs everywhere with me. I do not need to worry about the dog freaking out or being aggressive against someone unless called for.


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

Matt Grosch said:


> I dont know....Ive always been a fan of the Dalton-principle
> 
> be nice, until its time......to not be nice
> 
> ...






yep, this is the way to go


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Nicky is a little bit of an odd dog because he is extremely friendly. As in he actively seeks out affection from anyone he can. It is way beyond being social, he really loves people. When we were in patrol school I almost returned him because he really never showed any defense aggression or need to protect himself from "threats." He does not put on the big show of barking and looking scary with gnashing teeth.

These are things I love to see in a dog. Confidence, lack of insecurity, whatever you want to call it, is real nice to see in a dog.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

I don't like my dogs to be friendly with other people but I do want them to behave around people and in a crowd. 
That's my definition of "social"


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

I dont know if others would agree, but Id think a dog is 

-social = likes attention

-neutral = doesnt care

-anti social = doesnt like people and is inclined to bite with little provocation


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