# Hard dogs vs soft dogs



## Lindsay Janes (Aug 9, 2007)

Do you prefer soft or hard dogs? If you prefer hard dogs, does it mean you have a dominant (bully) personality? If you like soft dogs, then does it mean you have a soft personality? Can a hard dog go with a soft person? or a dominant person go with a soft dog?

I don't know which one do I prefer, but I think I like somewhere in the middle. Does it mean I have to find a dog that matches my personality? Can a soft dog go with someone who is assertive, but not necessary a soft person or a dominant person? Or do I have to go with a soft dog if I plan to get one later? Should it be a puppy or adult dog? I don't plan to get another addition until I am done with school or until Cody, a rottweiler mix, passes away soon.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

My working terriers matched my personality better them my GSDs. Both GSDs are pretty handler soft. I demand a lot from any dog but don't feel the need to bully them to get results. 
Leadership is what controls a dog, not muscle. 
The pros and cons of getting a puppy vs adult are many. I prefer to start with a young pup. I imprint it the way I want and feel it's tons easier to develope the teamwork and leadership from the get go. That's just me.


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## Lindsay Janes (Aug 9, 2007)

Bob Scott said:


> My working terriers matched my personality better them my GSDs. Both GSDs are pretty handler soft. I demand a lot from any dog but don't feel the need to bully them to get results.
> Leadership is what controls a dog, not muscle.


 Oh yeah, I agree about the leadership thing. If a dog knows who is the leader, it will respect and obey commands. I have seen some people who prefer hard dogs because they have dominant personalties. I don't want to name these people on here, but I'm sure you know who some members are. I'm wondering what make they prefer hard dogs, are they comfortable giving 8 to 10 corrections or enjoy fighting with hard dogs.

I'm curious what make you say that your terriers match your personality better than your GSDs.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

> Does it mean I have to find a dog that matches my personality?


That makes it easier. You COULD teach yourself to handle a dog with a personality less suited to yours. It isn't easy for most people - especially if the dog is also a house dog.

For a puppy, I like a dog that is neither excessively dominant or submissive, but is stubborn. I get them set in the right direction very, very young - 6 - 8 wks. The stubbornness channeled positively equals a dog that is not too easily distracted.

I'm a terrier person too.  I fell in love with terriers when I was volunteering at an animal shelter when I was 16. I liked the way they play, and their "off" switch.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

I prefer a hard dog. No matter how hard I try to control myself around my softer dogs, I still occasionally lose my temper and their work ethic suffers for it. While my harder dogs would just blow me off. It's not because I like to 'bully' them, but my personality suits a harder dog much better.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Lindsay Janes said:


> Oh yeah, I agree about the leadership thing. If a dog knows who is the leader, it will respect and obey commands. I have seen some people who prefer hard dogs because they have dominant personalties. I don't want to name these people on here, but I'm sure you know who some members are. I'm wondering what make they prefer hard dogs, are they comfortable giving 8 to 10 corrections or enjoy fighting with hard dogs.
> 
> I'm curious what make you say that your terriers match your personality better than your GSDs.


I think SOME people prefer hard dogs because of a "look at my bada$$ dog" metality. I'm gonna take some hits for this but, IMHO, handler aggressive dogs are either EFd in the head, unfailrly corrected, corrected with to heavy a hand. Any dog worth it's salt will rebell against to much pressure.
In the past I though I needed this type of dog. Looking back, I created them. A good terrier will happily eat your face if you put to much pressure on it. When I decided to train them and have fun, everything turned around. Even the crazy, EFd in the head JRT I have now. 
At 62, I'm quite happy working with a high drive, thinking GSD that enjoys training WITH me, not for me.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Do terriers think? :lol:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I think first you need to get a good understanding of what "hard" is. THere are a few definitions floating around out there.

I think that if you are interested in ring, then you should be concentrating of getting a dog that has good drives and good willingness, and stop thinking about all this silly "hardness" stuff.

For most people the definition of hard and soft is a dogs sensitivity to social pressure. Not sure I got that right, there is a term, but the brain is not working. In otherwords, a soft dog can start to slink if you look at them the wrong way, and a hard dog could care less and will wonder what you are wanting.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

I don't consider hard to be along with handler aggression. I take 'hard' to mean a dog that doesn't take a correction personally. Or doesn't go down in drive when corrected.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Anne, yes, terriers are always thinking.......evil thoughts. :lol:
Honestly, terriers are extreamly intelligent but they were bred to think for themselves instead of cooporate with a handler/shepherd. I've had very high level OB competition terriers. They just need to have a good reason, other then "Cause I said so", in order to perform at their best.
Lynn, I agree that hard dog doesn't necessarily go along with handler aggression but you'll seldom see a soft dog with handler aggression issues. As Jeff said, " A soft dog will start to slink if you look at them wrong".


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

I have seen soft stubborn independant dogs. Jeff said it best, a dog that is "willing". Some soft dogs will slink away when you are upset with them, others will come to you to try and figure out how to make you happy.

Either way, I dont like dogs that act like sissies. I have one, and while he's a really cool dog and I wouldnt trade him for anything, he leaves the room anytime he even thinks I might possibly be mad at him, like if I enthusiastically raise my voice during a conversation with someone he will walk out the room and act nervous. Odd thing is that I can yell AT him and he ignores me :lol: Being soft hasn't improved his OB any at all though, he's still stubborn and slow to do anything I ask. You could hit him over the head with a baseball bat for not sitting fast enough, then 2 minutes later he'll still take 45 seconds to sit, if he even does it at all.

Lyka on the other hand is kinda soft but very willing, if I do correct her, her tail goes up even higher and she goes into drive more trying to figure out what she did wrong to get corrected.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> Odd thing is that I can yell AT him and he ignores me :lol: Being soft hasn't improved his OB any at all though, he's still stubborn and slow to do anything I ask. You could hit him over the head with a baseball bat for not sitting fast enough, then 2 minutes later he'll still take 45 seconds to sit, if he even does it at all.


I don't think this behavior is odd at all for a "soft" dog. He is exhibiting what are now commonly referred to as "calming signals." You see both dogs and wolves do this to each other. Cujo is thinking, "If I move slowly, this guy will do the same." Also, ignoring you is another way for him to try to get you to calm down or stop yelling. If he turns away or turns his head to the side, he's trying to tell you to go away. That's why a lot of "soft" dogs seem to be stubborn. Stubborn is our interpretation of their attempt to calm us down. 

Exhibiting displacement behaviors (sniffing the ground instead of paying attention to the decoy) or going into avoidance are the most common ways I see dogs express these "calming behaviors" during training.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: I don't think this behavior is odd at all for a "soft" dog. He is exhibiting what are now commonly referred to as "calming signals." You see both dogs and wolves do this to each other. Cujo is thinking, "If I move slowly, this guy will do the same." Also, ignoring you is another way for him to try to get you to calm down or stop yelling. If he turns away or turns his head to the side, he's trying to tell you to go away. That's why a lot of "soft" dogs seem to be stubborn. Stubborn is our interpretation of their attempt to calm us down.

Very nice, but no, I am not needing calming, Jinxie is just a jerk.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Very nice, but no, I am not needing calming, Jinxie is just a jerk.


Hmmmm...I'm thinking that, of all of us here, you probably need calming the most!! :lol: 

Seriously though, I'm not saying all acts of stubborness are calming signals, but sometimes that's what is going on.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

I'll ship Cujo to you, I'll give you $10 if you can get him to come when called in under 30 seconds while he's sniffing something in the grass  He comes when called... just really slowy in a very roundabout way, like he's tracking a bunny on the way to me.


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## Kristina Senter (Apr 4, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Lynn, I agree that hard dog doesn't necessarily go along with handler aggression but you'll seldom see a soft dog with handler aggression issues. As Jeff said, " A soft dog will start to slink if you look at them wrong".


I have seen several soft dogs with severe handler aggression. Truthfully, I think it can be just as easy to make a soft dog handler aggressive as a hard dog...dominance/submissiveness aside. A soft dog will look for an "out" under pressure faster than a hard dog and if the handler is not experienced with softer dogs and the dog becomes confused, it may resort to aggression and being that they will have a lower tolerance, are more likely to repeat the behavior.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Woah!!=; Not saying I'm able to magically make him stop ignoring you, just tellin' ya what I think is going on based on your descriptions. And, your description of his recall above just makes me think even more that what he's doing is what they call calming signals (I hate that phrase BTW, but can't think of any better way to explain it).

My newest USAR dog in training is a little like Cujo. If there's any harsh tone to my voice at all, he performs in slow motion - particularly for the recall and the sit. 

Just out of curiousity, what was the original method you used to train Cujo obedience? I remember you saying he wasn't much of a food dog. 

Also, if anybody is interested in learning more about this theory of calming signals, here's a book about it:
"On Talking Terms With Dogs: Calming Signals" by Turid Rugaas


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## Kristina Senter (Apr 4, 2006)

Konnie Hein said:


> And, your description of his recall above just makes me think even more that what he's doing is what they call calming signals (I hate that phrase BTW, but can't think of any better way to explain it).


Sounds similar to "avoidance behavior" or am I off-track?
The "maybe if I ignore it and don't do anything to confront them or escalate the situation it will go away" behavior.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Kristina Senter said:


> Sounds similar to "avoidance behavior" or am I off-track?
> The "maybe if I ignore it and don't do anything to confront them or escalate the situation it will go away" behavior.


Similar, yes. Kind of like displacement behavior too. But instead of ignoring, they perform an action to give signals - hoping that the threatening or exicted (can't think of a better word) person or dog will follow suit and settle down - like yawning, turning their head to the side, sniffing the ground, moving slowly, etc.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Jinxie is just an asshole. I used food for ****s sake, and she has always 100% sucked.

I took it as an affront to my manhood and tried to train around it.

How dumb was that??? I gave up, and she still sucks. I had the dogs out for a walk, and forgot what a prick she is, and told them to down at the convienence store. Buko drops and she just stands there and looks at me.

So I stood there, sorta confused, as I HAD forgotten. I asked her again, and she just stood there looking at me. Naturally it all came back to me in a flash, so I grabbed her bacl leg and kicked the front legs out from her.

Worked like a charm. Dogs still a prick.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

:lol: Yeah thats Cujo all over. SOMETIMES I get a sit when I tell him to down.

But damn if I have food on me when he's hungry suddenly his OB is perfect and he remembers everything :roll:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> :lol: Yeah thats Cujo all over. SOMETIMES I get a sit when I tell him to down.
> 
> But damn if I have food on me when he's hungry suddenly his OB is perfect and he remembers everything :roll:


The only thing hard about food training. NOT using it as a bribe and Weaning them off properly.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> The only thing hard about food training. NOT using it as a bribe and Weaning them off properly.


SO TRUE, Bob:!:


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Oh he knows... he knows......


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Jinxie just stands there, then the ears start to go back, and her head drops. She just doesn't ****in want to do it. She is the biggest most unwilling piece of shit on the planet.

At least if Cujo is hungry he will perform, she walks away if you ask her to do something for food.

I keep her as a constant reminder of what junk really looks like.

Amazingly like a chow, she is pretty damn good in the house.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

:lol: wow, Jeff keeping a dog thats useless. What is the world coming to!


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Jeff, try some of Al Reanto's stuff.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Jinxie just stands there, then the ears start to go back, and her head drops. She just doesn't ****in want to do it. She is the biggest most unwilling piece of shit on the planet.
> 
> At least if Cujo is hungry he will perform, she walks away if you ask her to do something for food.
> 
> ...


 Jeff, I'll bet you could teach her to type and recite the constitution if you offer her a bite of your leg! Now that's a reward! :lol:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Bob, if the dog was consistantly OK in bitework, then it would be a no brainer.

Her thresholds are so crazy, that when we were trying to get them down, the decoy was exhausted.

Really wish I had video taped us trying to get her to go, and then when she did go, just as a training tape.

What a pain in the ass.

When she was good, she was ****ING AWESOME. Then the next time, she was useless.](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,) Then useless then useless.

Really good example of "random reinforcement"


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## Alex Corral (Jul 10, 2007)

Here's something I found on the web about how this breeder matches pups with certain handlers. I thought it was interesting. http://www.spritebelgians.com/philos/art4.shtml


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

That is the most technical way of describing the process of matching dogs and handlers I have seen.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Why does that scream bullshit to me???


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Too much variation on what a tester sees based on his/her past experiences???? Do I get a prize????? 

Or is it that it makes them seem like they have a clue, and thus the puppy buyer will feel more comfortable choosing them????

I have a few more if these are not correct.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

correct or not, let's hear them jeff. i'm always curious as to how your mind works b/c it's always interesting in a twisted kind of way.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Na.=; =; =;


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

oh, c'mon jeff--don't be shy, you're among friends here.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Bob, if the dog was consistantly OK in bitework, then it would be a no brainer.
> 
> Her thresholds are so crazy, that when we were trying to get them down, the decoy was exhausted.
> 
> ...


Gotta be frustrating. Lack of consistancy is the reason I got rid of the Mal pup I had a while back. Crazy drive one day, brain dead the next.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Or is it that it makes them seem like they have a clue, and thus the puppy buyer will feel more comfortable choosing them????


That's the one right there.

Your prize is in the mail, you should receive it in 3 days, go get in line at the post office


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