# Key points to reward



## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

This has come up a few times recently in discussions and I am curious how people are incorporating rewards into precision work and using them to extend duration. Eg Heeling, turns, down in motion etc

So for example if Im working on my heeling I foose the dog then start moving and reward for focus, first short duration then longer and longer. Sometimes Ill reward in motion sometimes when the dog is sitting or as soon as she gets into position. Making it variable and unpredictable.

So for example you start adding turns or down/sit/stand in motion and initially you only do a short duration of heeling then incorporate the turn, down or whatever your working on and mark/reward at the point were the dog does whatever your working on.

Then you add more duration to the heel before command/reward.

What I have encountered is that other things that were good such as head position or sitting at halts starts to slip. So while the turns might be progressing nicely all of a sudden the dog starts doing hover sits or some other thing that was never an issue before.

So then you have to go back and fix that. 

What I have personally done is go back to variable reenforcement to keep the dog sharper on all the previous work and sometimes do seperate sessions were I work exclusively on the sit/down in motion or whatever Im working on.

If I understand correctly some people only reward at the key point they are targeting the idea being for the dog to load and channel all the drive into the target command. 

So if your doing down in motions you do some heeling a turn or two then the down/reward.

I guess my question would be how do you use this method without seeing the dog start to slip in other places or lose drive in areas were he KNOWS he will not be rewarded?

When you get to the point when you are doing dumbell retrieves and your incorporating that into the rest of the routine thats a long time to go without consistently rewarding until the dog does the retrieves. At least to my mind.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I prefer to teach the sit/down/stand/etc completely separate from heeling. When they are solid individually then I would add them to short duration heeling but only one at a time. If you add to many behaviors at one time then everything will slip. 
When a new behavior is added to a bit of heeling you don't just wait for the new behavior befoer rewarding. The dog either looses reward and you start over or the dog is corrected for the mistake before you get to the new behavior. 
To long with no reward for good work from the dog is no different then to long with allowing not so good work with no corrections if that is the method used. 
Doesn't matter if you use correction only, reward only or both. 
In the retrieve the dog needs to understand that anything throughout the whole exercise is worthy of reward. 
you may put two, three, four behaviors together before a reward is given but if any one fails then it's correction or stop,
If training with corrections why would someone continue on without correcting the dog for making a mistake? 
You can't go on the trial field with a pocket full of rewards/treats/tug/etc anymore then you can't go on the field with an e-collar/pinch collar/ or the use of any correction. 
"ALL" behaviors have to be put together with no reward or corrections when it comes to trial time on the field.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

What Bob said + I reward so randomly anyway because I am a random person that it just happens for me.

This is pretty cool:
http://caninesinaction.com/2014/07/training-game-teaches-rat-always-right/


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Sorry should have been more clear Bob. Im assuming that everything is taught seperately THEN incorporated. 
My comments where in relation to stringing the routine together and creating duration while maintaining drive not teaching individual behaviors.


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Matt Vandart said:


> What Bob said + I reward so randomly anyway because I am a random person that it just happens for me.
> 
> This is pretty cool:
> http://caninesinaction.com/2014/07/training-game-teaches-rat-always-right/


I found the article interesting but I get the impression the author is trying to prove that corrections are non conducive to clicker training. Which obviously is not true.

She uses free shaping with a clicker in concert with corrections as an example which is were it all falls apart for me..lol.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Thats not what I took away from that. I saw it more as an illustration of if you don't reward enough the dog can shut down. Maybe irrelevant I spose.
However I agree with Bob, I just make sure the other stuff is solid first, then I do not need to worry about it.
So fr example if I am training down in motion then my heeling will be solid first and as it goes the down will be too.
Like I train all the 'stuff' then find I have a complete heeling routine in 'stuff' then I just string it together.
Far better trainers than me here though, so I would listen to them , lol


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Ok how about this one?

http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2002/reliability.htm


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

This has come up a few times recently in discussions and I am curious how people are incorporating rewards into precision work and using them to extend duration. Eg Heeling, turns, down in motion etc


Haz the way I extend duration is by using a high drive food or toy.. off to the side where the dog can see it and know its there (consdering its a behavior the dog already knows) . It also comes down to you recognizing when the dog is done and shutting it down at the right time... you don't want to draw out the duration anymore than the dogs capability to stay in a high state of drive. 

when teaching the new behavior its better to use the food/toy to place the dog where you want them and mark etc. Always break your behaviors down into pieces if need be. And what Bob said ..


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## Lynda Myers (Jul 16, 2008)

Haz, I understand what your saying about some of the behaviors falling apart. I have an American Bulldog who took quite some time to get her ready for her BH because of this very thing. Once I was sure she knew a behavior would then focus on another. But when I would try to link the behaviors together it was as if she had forgotten the previous one. 

I have trained several dogs using the reward based training and honestly don't feel it was a problem with the method but just the way this particular dog learned and processed information. She literally needed hundreds of repetitions and I could never totally focus on just one behavior at a time. We did finally get our BH, it was a pretty good performance even though there were a couple bobbles. 
May I never have another dog like her to train as there were times I just wanted to call it quits.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Lynda Myers said:


> Haz, I understand what your saying about some of the behaviors falling apart. I have an American Bulldog who took quite some time to get her ready for her BH because of this very thing. Once I was sure she knew a behavior would then focus on another. But when I would try to link the behaviors together it was as if she had forgotten the previous one.
> 
> I have trained several dogs using the reward based training and honestly don't feel it was a problem with the method but just the way this particular dog learned and processed information. She literally needed hundreds of repetitions and I could never totally focus on just one behavior at a time. We did finally get our BH, it was a pretty good performance even though there were a couple bobbles.
> May I never have another dog like her to train as there were times I just wanted to call it quits.


a great learning experience (I have had quite a few like that) and a testimonial for when in Rome do as the romans do ... work a herder in the bite sports ... its hard with a good dog .. its REAL hard with a breed not designed for it lol ... glad you didnt quit her!


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

In short, you first teach basics with lots of release/reward markers one at a time. Now when combining 2 basics already taught this way, you start with the most solid and reward "only" at the not so solid or newer behavior. You do this for several months. Dog begins to understand that he has to perform behavior 1 to get to behavior 2 and then the reward comes. Same goes for behavior 3 and 4. Dog begins to develop "hope".

Handler/trainer has to line up the behaviors that gets rewarded and only reward for the subject behavior as first reward. After that then handler can go back and reinforce previous behaviors with rewards (in the same session, first reward being KEY). Key is that the dog remembers the first reward/behavior combination most and now anticipates that in order to get that reward he has to go throughout behavior 1, 2 whatever....


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

To add to Faisal's excellent post above I would add that you never stop randomly rewarding for correct behaviors in ANY part of the exercise during training but you will wean off to fewer random rewards only if it stays correct. 
Many stop rewarding the first steps in heeling. They are always just as reward worthy as the 10th or the 100th step. 
Again, no different then always correcting for less then good performances during training if your using corrections only you don't use random corrections. 
If the first 5-10 steps fall apart then you definitely don't want to go on to another behavior such as sit, etc. 
Do the sit after 2-3-5-10 paces. Just don't fall into a pattern of the same 2-3-5-10 or the dog will pick up on that just as the dog will pick up on the fact that a handler doesn't reward till it gets out to 40 paces. The first 39 become unimportant to earning a reward so they fall apart.


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

...forgot to mention that with "hope" comes duration. Experiencing this real time through excellent direction from my TD (yes, I am not the genius here)


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I think you get the hope through randomization and a variable reinforcement schedule as Bob described. Since he never knows when the reward is coming, he keeps trying. It breaks down with too far too fast and people who only reward for end behaviors. If my dog ha a course with five task and I only reward the fifth task, then tasks 1-4 will extinguish.

T


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Faisal Khan said:


> In short, you first teach basics with lots of release/reward markers one at a time. Now when combining 2 basics already taught this way, you start with the most solid and reward "only" at the not so solid or newer behavior. You do this for several months. Dog begins to understand that he has to perform behavior 1 to get to behavior 2 and then the reward comes. Same goes for behavior 3 and 4. Dog begins to develop "hope".
> 
> Handler/trainer has to line up the behaviors that gets rewarded and only reward for the subject behavior as first reward. After that then handler can go back and reinforce previous behaviors with rewards (in the same session, first reward being KEY). Key is that the dog remembers the first reward/behavior combination most and now anticipates that in order to get that reward he has to go throughout behavior 1, 2 whatever....


great post! Kinda deep for the newer trainer but it has the keys to get where you want to go with the dog... if this advice is followed the dog will get really snappy and quick in their work too.


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I think you get the hope through randomization and a variable reinforcement schedule as Bob described. Since he never knows when the reward is coming, he keeps trying. It breaks down with too far too fast and people who only reward for end behaviors. If my dog ha a course with five task and I only reward the fifth task, then tasks 1-4 will extinguish.
> 
> T


It only breaks down if people do not incorporate drive building and fun (for the dog) into their routine. When using reward selectively you do not reward before the target exercise, if there are 2 exercise before the target exercise then you add drive build exercises in the 1st 2 but do not reward until the 3rd (target) exercise. Dog (after a week or so, say 6 sessions) now know that he can rely on "hope" as reward will come at the 3rd set of exercise and shows enthusiasm because of that hope.

Random rewards are for the beginning training phase only, after that it becomes a calculated game incorporating drive building routines/exercises taught earlier. This becomes another tool the handler can incorporate instead of rewarding for the 1st 2 exercises (if reward earlier than targeted 3rd behavior then you defeat the purpose). Key is to develop and use the drive building tools to get through the no-reward portion as only this will make the 3rd exercise black/white clear in dogs head due to reward only being used here (and so on).


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Once you reach your target exercise and reward for it (1st reward). Now you can re-work the 1st 2 exercises and reward if needed, no issues. To the dog it remains very clear that the 3rd was where he will get his relief and he will go through 1 and 2 based on that belief. Most important to teach and use drive building exercises (could be a quick 90deg left turn, 2 steps back heel, or between legs etc etc) during the 1st 2 exercises to keep dog engaged, excited and correct.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I equate reward based training to a slot machine. It rewards randomly. If the reward doesn't come after many pulls on the handle boredom/lack of interest sets in. 
It's the randomness of the reward AS LONG AS the time between wins isn't to long and AS LONG AS the reward is high enough.


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