# metal,retrievers



## kamphuis gerben (Jan 29, 2009)

my notice,after buying dogs for costums,
their testing changed this year no towel,no rubberhose,no pvc 
kopperpipe the whole of holland gets crazy everybody needs kopperretrievers
as long as they retrieve kopper prices go skyhigh theres a runn on it 
can anybody tell me whats the exstra is 
example bought a dog perfect health ,retrieves everything also iron but no kopperpipe nerves inside outside perfect 
goes up under everything very good search till he finds it easy to handle works for everybody 
but no kopper 
in my mind huntdrive,nerves stability energi,atletich plus tremendous workability good health 
is importand to let them find what their trained for and in my eyes its not so importand what they retrieve i see now that the ability to fetch kopper goes over many traits that makes a dog in my eyes a stable single purposedog who knows where he is busy whith finding what he is trained for 
iam pretty sure that you loose a lot off quality dogs just by saying he must retriever kopper 
i hope they find what they need but .......................
gerben


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## Wayne Dodge (Mar 7, 2008)

In my opinion simply a ignorant fad (as I understand the requirement) that discounts true potential in a dog based upon a very insignificant requirement. If everything else is good it matters little... just my take though.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Wayne Dodge said:


> In my opinion simply a ignorant fad (as I understand the requirement) that discounts true potential in a dog based upon a very insignificant requirement. If everything else is good it matters little... just my take though.


I agree with Mr. Dodge. Customs, among other are looking for a specific dog, trying to work smarter, rather than harder. That's not a bad thing. Personally, I think it's because they just don't have that many good detector dog trainers any longer. 

DFrost


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## kamphuis gerben (Jan 29, 2009)

basically what i ment 
is that seeking for exstreme over the top retrievingdogs lack many times the abbility to concentate on finding
i think a dog who by definition dont retrieve kopper can be a better detectordog than a dog who does 
i know exachthly which type of dog they looking for 
i think by finding so many for them i do 
but i think its crazy that were lived by a stupid regulation that doesnt add any exstra to a good detectordog 
i think it will only cost them more and in the end i think they can only get 30%of the dogs they need 
if they keep following those regulations 
i think there are a lot of pvc retrievers who will do the job but real kopperetrievers who will do the job there are not many


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## sam wilks (May 3, 2009)

maybe there is a reason. but if they had good dogs before without testing with copper then what is all the fuss about. if they are getting worse dogs then they should reevaluate their testing but not just add one thing to it and fail a dog for not passing that.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

David , 

Do you think around this country it's just in detector dog training ? I think that's a growing problem in PSD training throughout every aspect of PSD work in this country . 

I see the old time dog trainers who have been training for decades leaving . The new trainers I see taking their place are PSD handlers/trainer with not many years of experiance and not that many dogs trained under their belt or under experianced trainers . These new trainers also tend not to stay in the PSD training field that long either often taking promotions on to other things within police work .

Even though some have argued these experianced trainers used "outdated" training methods , they knew dog behavior and could read dogs in training . The newer trainers just seem to need something out of the box ready , and train using very little thought to each particular dogs individual behaviors in preparing them in training for the actual real work that's expected of them .

An example on the Patrol side of the job is I see little value put on the search work of a dog . The search seems to have become secondary when it's still their primary job in Police K9 work . Now they just look for a dog that will bite the snot out of everthing . 

I use to hear this saying all the time ; " If you can't find them you can't bite them . " . I don't hear it much anymore .

I just had a talk yesterday with a mentor of mine I hadn't seen in years who works occassionally for a federal agency . He pretty much told me he's seeing the same thing in his new job . He can see it in the handlers also who are very bad at reading their dogs in detector work .


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Jim Nash said:


> David ,
> 
> Do you think around this country it's just in detector dog training ? I think that's a growing problem in PSD training throughout every aspect of PSD work in this country .
> 
> ...


Jim,

I think it's pretty much that way across the board. Before I retired from the military, it was one of the "items of concern" during my outbriefing with the general. The military was quickly going down the road where there were training canine operators instead of trainers. If the "machine" works like it's supposed to, no problem. If it's broken, there is no "technician" or limited access to technicians, to fix the problem. The guise of "working smarter rather than harder" is often used. My question and I'm speaking soley on the premise PSD' whether single or dual purpose. How many departments take truly "green" dogs and train them from start. The question, in my mind is rhetorical --- the answer is very few. Police trainers, in my opinion, in many circumstances do the best they can with the "started" dog they procure, rather than build that team from the ground up. I understand there are lots of reasons this is done, none-the-less, it's what I see in many, I might even say, most programs.

DFrost


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Quote Jim Nash "Even though some have argued these experianced trainers used "outdated" training methods , they knew dog behavior and could read dogs in training . The newer trainers just seem to need something out of the box ready , and train using very little thought to each particular dogs individual behaviors in preparing them in training for the actual real work that's expected of them"Unquote

The "crucial point" being, the knew "dog behaviour".


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

David Frost said:


> Jim,
> 
> I think it's pretty much that way across the board. Before I retired from the military, it was one of the "items of concern" during my outbriefing with the general. The military was quickly going down the road where there were training canine operators instead of trainers. If the "machine" works like it's supposed to, no problem. If it's broken, there is no "technician" or limited access to technicians, to fix the problem. The guise of "working smarter rather than harder" is often used. My question and I'm speaking soley on the premise PSD' whether single or dual purpose. How many departments take truly "green" dogs and train them from start. The question, in my mind is rhetorical --- the answer is very few. Police trainers, in my opinion, in many circumstances do the best they can with the "started" dog they procure, rather than build that team from the ground up. I understand there are lots of reasons this is done, none-the-less, it's what I see in many, I might even say, most programs.
> 
> DFrost


You are so right! Whether or not most will admit, most organizations, especially PSD want a plug n' play dog! I tend to beleive it's the lack of knowledge or training by some of the trainers, but do understand time and operational requirement are what drives everything!


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

David Frost said:


> Jim,
> 
> I think it's pretty much that way across the board. Before I retired from the military, it was one of the "items of concern" during my outbriefing with the general. The military was quickly going down the road where there were training canine operators instead of trainers. If the "machine" works like it's supposed to, no problem. If it's broken, there is no "technician" or limited access to technicians, to fix the problem. The guise of "working smarter rather than harder" is often used. My question and I'm speaking soley on the premise PSD' whether single or dual purpose. How many departments take truly "green" dogs and train them from start. The question, in my mind is rhetorical --- the answer is very few. Police trainers, in my opinion, in many circumstances do the best they can with the "started" dog they procure, rather than build that team from the ground up. I understand there are lots of reasons this is done, none-the-less, it's what I see in many, I might even say, most programs.
> 
> DFrost


I agree and I think it explains the reason biting has become the primary focus with many PSD's because they are being supplied K9s buy trainers with very little knowledge in search work . 

Funny thing is from my experiance when it comes to bitework the less focus put on search work the less chance that dog will ever get to actually bite someone for real . It's a myth that most bites come from footpursuits , straight attacks or handler protection situations . Most come because of a successful search first . 

On the detector side having a dog out of the box doing it does no good if the trainer and handler are unaware of the search behaviors of a dog . It's not just the final response (alert) that a handler or trainer have to be concerned about but the search behaviors also of the dog during the search in order to be truelly successful .


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## Mike Di Rago (Jan 9, 2009)

In the dog world, and this unfortunately includes police forces, fashions dictate over common sense.
The fetching and carrying of metal pipes doesn't have incidence on detection ability and drive to hunt the odor source. This is a ridiculous selection criteria when you realize that selecting a good police dog candidate is so hard.
As long as there is money to be made this will go on.
Mike


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

I got a chance a while back to watch two dogs one being a metal retriever and one being a pressuirzed hose freak. Both were fringing nutts for there reward. In the end went it came time to have the dogs work the same room, same day, same conditions the one with the hose was able to find the substance sooner and shorter and was clearly watching a harder and faster worker.

That whole metal shit is great but is nothing more than a demanded preference because some asshole filled there head with shit. It needs to be picked on the dog and not a reward.

As far as buying and handling a titled dog for police work rather than training a dog that shows all the qualities is a bunch of shit to. Its a faster link to getting the dog on the street in most cases not all. I have seen green trained up dogs become better police dogs than titled dogs.

In my opinion its not what you want or what you been told and heard, it should be placed on a dog to dog basis. Thats why so many good dogs get passed up. Its for the reason that the head man doesn't know enough or has been fed a line of crap by some salesman. People on both ends of the stick should be removed from the dog world JMO that follow in those foot steps. 

If your one of these people and got there dick stepped on oh well and change your ways and do whats right for the dog as well as its new handlers.:twisted:


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## Guest (May 28, 2010)

> An example on the Patrol side of the job is I see little value put on the search work of a dog . The search seems to have become secondary when it's still their primary job in Police K9 work .


I understand single purpose dogs are the norm elsewhere, but yeah...I've yet to meet a single purpose apprehension dog in the U.S. That seems to be a specialized niche, which I haven't even had any contact with.

So the bottom line is that if it can't search, than it's out of work entirely. If it can search, it can still be salvaged from previous dual purpose expectations if he's not aggressive enough.

Right? 

I'm not sure I quite understand any "police dog vendor" who says: "So...what's this about detection training now? I've never really dealt with that aspect of training before.".....8-[


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Steven Lepic said:


> I understand single purpose dogs are the norm elsewhere, but yeah...I've yet to meet a single purpose apprehension dog in the U.S. That seems to be a specialized niche, which I haven't even had any contact with.
> 
> So the bottom line is that if it can't search, than it's out of work entirely. If it can search, it can still be salvaged from previous dual purpose expectations if he's not aggressive enough.
> 
> ...


I don't quite understand what you're saying. When you talk about a single purpose apprehension dog, do you mean one that bites, and that's it? There are patrol dogs that are not dual purpose. Meaning they are trained only in patrol functions, area search, building search, tracking and of course the apprehension work. Which by the way is NOT a patrol dog's primary function. 

Then in the second paragraph, when you talk about a dog that can search and can it still be salvaged. There are many departments that have single purpose detector dogs. Or are you refering to search as in finding the man? The only police application I'm aware of with a non-aggressive dog used for finding people is like a bloodhound or similarly trained dog. I'm sure I'm just confused on terminology, but had to ask. 

I don't understand you last sentence at all. 

DFrost


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Hmmmm, we have just upped our "detection dog" testing requirements here at "Intergallactic Police Dog Company PTY LTD". We think copper retrieval is outdated and we taken the lead in hardcore testing. From now on we will require all of our prospects to be crazy retrievers of broken glass.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

I was at Customs all day today delivering metal retrievers. Everytime I see them test I think to myself how crazy the test is. But here is my delima........I did not write the test, but I have the contract so I must find them the dogs.
I will say that in most cases the dogs that are very strong on metal are very very good dogs for sure. But I will agree that a lot of them are so crazy with such intense drives that they are hecktic and can not focus as well as a more calmer dog that may only retrieve PVC.
But if the test is to determine insanity and over the top intensity for retrieving then they do a great job of selecting them.
By the way, today every dog that I showed them passed the new working evaluation selection test.
But like Gerben said, they are making it harder and harder for us to find them the dogs they need, yet their demand for dogs is higher than ever before........the pond is running dry!!!!


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Mike I understand your position. My comments in this thread have nothing do to with vendors. The comments are directed towards the law enforcement trainers. Not trainer vendors, or those that sell trained dogs to law enforcement. Jim Nash made a very good point from the perspective of law enforcement, and I'm in agreement. I dont' even mean to imply that vendors don't produce and sell some good trained dogs to law enforcement. My concern is the erosion of skilled trainers within both law enforcment, the military and yes even customs. 

You say: " yet their demand for dogs is higher than ever before........the pond is running dry!!!!"

good because as long as they keep to their single minded selection, that means there may more dogs available for us. We can't pay the sustained prices of the feds, plus, some of us can still train green dogs. 


DFrost


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Mike....How many vendors in this country supply these dogs? And...if they stop, will the prerequisite for insane metal retrievers go away when there is no more supply?

On the other hand...if you are regularly breeding capable dogs; to stop would cut into business. It's a catch 22 for you.

David....it is a benefit that they wash out good dogs with this narrow focused requirement.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Howard Knauf said:


> Mike....How many vendors in this country supply these dogs? And...if they stop, will the prerequisite for insane metal retrievers go away when there is no more supply?
> 
> On the other hand...if you are regularly breeding capable dogs; to stop would cut into business. It's a catch 22 for you.
> 
> David....it is a benefit that they wash out good dogs with this narrow focused requirement.


There are a few vendors that currently supply the dogs for them. Some vendors have good past performance rating, others do not. Thanks to Gerben's hard work we are one of the more successful vendors in terms of the % of dogs that pass the selection tests.
Last year US Customs did not require a dog to retrieve metal, but US Border Patrol did. Even though last year the selection test was much easier than it is now, they still had a hard time filling the demand for all the dogs they needed. So now, the requirement is harder and they expect to be able to fill the need this year??? 

You are right about one thing though, they wash out some really excellent dogs.


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## James Lechernich (Oct 20, 2009)

For the uninitiated, what correlation is there between detection and the retrieve? Is it obedience? If it is, then why does a dog's preference of retrieve items(stuff it does or does not like in its mouth) make a difference? An obedient dog is going to do the job whether it's thrilled about it the idea or not, right?


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

James Lechernich said:


> For the uninitiated, what correlation is there between detection and the retrieve? Is it obedience? If it is, then why does a dog's preference of retrieve items(stuff it does or does not like in its mouth) make a difference? An obedient dog is going to do the job whether it's thrilled about it the idea or not, right?


no, it is not obedience.....it is intensity. obdeience has nothing to do with it. a dog can not be trained to pass the test we are taling about. he either has it or he does not.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Mike what makes a metal retriever more insane then a pvc or pressurized hose or ball retriever? Why copper mouths and not other metals?


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

We have gone over this many, many times on this forum. it is late and I am tired and going to bed. When a person sees a strong metal dog you will see the difference. I can not keep explaining it. I am sure you can go back and search the history on here and find many attempts that I have made to explain it. For the people who dont understand it, it does not matter anyway.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

mike suttle said:


> We have gone over this many, many times on this forum. it is late and I am tired and going to bed. When a person sees a strong metal dog you will see the difference. I can not keep explaining it. I am sure you can go back and search the history on here and find many attempts that I have made to explain it. For the people who dont understand it, it does not matter anyway.


 
I have seen, and the prior thread about the OB was funny!! I will give you this, it is PURE INSANITY! 
When a dog will tug metal like a jute roll and not give a shit about anything, its insane! The problem like you pointed out is they are usually hard heads in OB and control, because of the insanity! 

Selection programs sometimes change due to new trainers or knee jerk reactions to something that has happened.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Mike didn't mean to come across the wrong way there pal. Just asking a question for my knowledge trying to be open minded and learn something that might be known that I don't know haven't seen any other post on this to be honest with you.

Was also asking is there a different taste or dexterity that a dog picks up on being copper and not others. I know there is differences in metal but what makes most dogs not want copper but still want others. Thats what I was asking about in general.


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## James Lechernich (Oct 20, 2009)

Intensity I can understand. And I guess Jody's answer probably sums up the how & why of the thing, I just don't have a reference point for how the manifestitation of intensity for one retrieve item over another determines a dog's suitability.

By obedience I just meant I wouldn't think a dog needed to have exactly the same reaction/intensity level for every aspect of its job, so long as they do it, in order to be suitable a/o a good dog. 

Nevertheless I'll hunt down the other threads and see if I can get a clue.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

James Lechernich said:


> Intensity I can understand. And I guess Jody's answer probably sums up the how & why of the thing, I just don't have a reference point for how the manifestitation of intensity for one retrieve item over another determines a dog's suitability.
> 
> By obedience I just meant I wouldn't think a dog needed to have exactly the same reaction/intensity level for every aspect of its job, so long as they do it, in order to be suitable a/o a good dog.
> 
> Nevertheless I'll hunt down the other threads and see if I can get a clue.


 
The insanity isn't crazier over metal than lets say a ball, its with ALL objects, metal just being one that you would think is least preffered by most dogs...there is not way to describe unless you see it, just one of those things, first time I did, I was like WTF? There goes his teeth...remember its a test, the why about it and whether or not they need to do this after selection is a whole different topic for another day.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

David Frost said:


> Mike I understand your position. My comments in this thread have nothing do to with vendors. The comments are directed towards the law enforcement trainers. Not trainer vendors, or those that sell trained dogs to law enforcement. Jim Nash made a very good point from the perspective of law enforcement, and I'm in agreement. I dont' even mean to imply that vendors don't produce and sell some good trained dogs to law enforcement. My concern is the erosion of skilled trainers within both law enforcment, the military and yes even customs.
> 
> You say: " yet their demand for dogs is higher than ever before........the pond is running dry!!!!"
> 
> ...



The "erosion of skilled trainers" is across the board. Sport and pet training included. 
To many that can't read a dog and train "because that's how I was taught".


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

i saw this shit on border patroll.
the wher testing a gsd. he dident want to go under a car. first time for the dog. they dident want him for just that smal shit.
one thing, that they culd have traind the dog to do one one day.

its easy to make a test so that dogs fail. it dosent mean you cant quicly tran them for it.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

the point behind testing metal retrievers is not really about metal, it is about everything from a tennis ball all the way up to a metal pipe without a drop in intensity. So in other words, I want to see the dog retrieve a ball, a rubber hose, a pvc pipe, a wooden dowel, a tug toy, a rolled towel, a metal pipe, without showing a lack of drive for any one of those items. I may throw a ball and a rolled towel first, then drop a metal pipe on the ground while the dog has the ball or towell in his mouth. I want the dog to happily trade the ball or towel for the metal pipe just because he saw it move, and when he makes the trade I want him to be happy to carry and play with the metal pipe even though now the ball or towel is laying on the ground. Also the word "retrieve" is not really what most people think. When I say I need "metal retrievers", most people think they can just train the dog to do that and it will pass my test. It is not about retrieving in the conventional sense of the word. In other words, by definition to retrieve something the dog must bring it back to the handler. In this case we do not care if the dog actually returns the object to the owner. In fact if the dog does return and drop the object he is likely not going to pass the test. It is about intensity, possesiveness to keep and play with the object on his own, without handler interaction, and a sense of urgency and almost frantic behavior (yet still clear) in the hunt drive that never stops until the object is found.
I dont know how else to explain it. I will say that only a very small % of the adults that we test have what it takes. It is just a way to quickly measure and judge the dogs intensity. But this type of intensity can not be trained, it is born into the dog. Most people can not understand that and that is fine. For the few people who actually do get it, call me if you have anything like that for sale. I need a few hundred of them (literally)


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

andreas broqvist said:


> i saw this shit on border patroll.
> the wher testing a gsd. he dident want to go under a car. first time for the dog. they dident want him for just that smal shit.
> one thing, that they culd have traind the dog to do one one day.
> 
> its easy to make a test so that dogs fail. it dosent mean you cant quicly tran them for it.


But the point of most of these tests is to see what the dog will do by nature. There are some dogs who will dive under the car with such intensity that he scrapes the hair of his back on the car frame the very first time he sees this test, and some dogs dont have enough toy drive to go under the car after a toy the first time. If you are testing thousands of dogs per year, you tend to migrate towards the ones who did it by nature the first time. It is not really about going under the car, I can train any dog to go under a car, that is very easy. It is about where are the dogs reservations and how reckless is he about chasing and hunting for a toy. If he wont go under the car without help, then what else will he need help with? Believe me, some dogs will go under and over anything with no training, and some dogs wont do it without training. Everyone likes the dog who does not care about the environment around him. Again, these are the tests, I did not write the test. I am only a "lowlife dog vendor" who must find dogs for this purpose and I know what they will take and what they wont. It does not mean the dogs that fail are bad dogs, it just means they are not the right dog for this type of test.

I will give you an example. I just picked up a few patterdale terriers recently. I got one for my own ******* entertainment here on the farm. (killing every varmit that we can dig out of the ground and in the barns). The other pattedale I got to use for a detection contract that I am working on.
The dog that I got for the detection contract is 6 months old. I had to get her that young because anything older than that was already started on critters. At 6 months this dog had been born and raised in a rabbit hutch. (about 5 x2 with a metal screen floor with automatic feeders and waterers so a human does not even have to see the dog for a week at a time. I saw where this dog had lived her whole life and heard that she had never been out of the back yard and I just assumed that she would never make the grade for my needs.
After testing her for a few minutes I knew she was worth giving a chance to.
Long story short, this dog, with absolutely zero preparation work will clmib in, under, through, around, on top of anything that I can show her, she will never quit hunting, and she will never drop her toy when she finds it. The first day I got her home I was hiding her toy under my truck up in the frame and she was climbing inside the undercarriage while the truck was running hunting for her toy. That is the type of blank canvas that everyone wants to start with in training.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> the point behind testing metal retrievers is not really about metal, it is about everything from a tennis ball all the way up to a metal pipe without a drop in intensity. So in other words, I want to see the dog retrieve a ball, a rubber hose, a pvc pipe, a wooden dowel, a tug toy, a rolled towel, a metal pipe, without showing a lack of drive for any one of those items. I may throw a ball and a rolled towel first, then drop a metal pipe on the ground while the dog has the ball or towell in his mouth. I want the dog to happily trade the ball or towel for the metal pipe just because he saw it move, and when he makes the trade I want him to be happy to carry and play with the metal pipe even though now the ball or towel is laying on the ground. Also the word "retrieve" is not really what most people think. When I say I need "metal retrievers", most people think they can just train the dog to do that and it will pass my test. It is not about retrieving in the conventional sense of the word. In other words, by definition to retrieve something the dog must bring it back to the handler. In this case we do not care if the dog actually returns the object to the owner. In fact if the dog does return and drop the object he is likely not going to pass the test. It is about intensity, possesiveness to keep and play with the object on his own, without handler interaction, and a sense of urgency and almost frantic behavior (yet still clear) in the hunt drive that never stops until the object is found.
> I dont know how else to explain it. I will say that only a very small % of the adults that we test have what it takes. It is just a way to quickly measure and judge the dogs intensity. But this type of intensity can not be trained, it is born into the dog. Most people can not understand that and that is fine. For the few people who actually do get it, call me if you have anything like that for sale. I need a few hundred of them (literally)


Thanks Mike, Gotcha its actually easy to understand in words on how u explained it. I appreciate it being that it is the first time I have seen your theory explained.:wink:


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> But the point of most of these tests is to see what the dog will do by nature. There are some dogs who will dive under the car with such intensity that he scrapes the hair of his back on the car frame the very first time he sees this test, and some dogs dont have enough toy drive to go under the car after a toy the first time. If you are testing thousands of dogs per year, you tend to migrate towards the ones who did it by nature the first time. It is not really about going under the car, I can train any dog to go under a car, that is very easy. It is about where are the dogs reservations and how reckless is he about chasing and hunting for a toy. If he wont go under the car without help, then what else will he need help with? Believe me, some dogs will go under and over anything with no training, and some dogs wont do it without training. Everyone likes the dog who does not care about the environment around him. Again, these are the tests, I did not write the test. I am only a "lowlife dog vendor" who must find dogs for this purpose and I know what they will take and what they wont. It does not mean the dogs that fail are bad dogs, it just means they are not the right dog for this type of test.
> 
> I will give you an example. I just picked up a few patterdale terriers recently. I got one for my own ******* entertainment here on the farm. (killing every varmit that we can dig out of the ground and in the barns). The other pattedale I got to use for a detection contract that I am working on.
> The dog that I got for the detection contract is 6 months old. I had to get her that young because anything older than that was already started on critters. At 6 months this dog had been born and raised in a rabbit hutch. (about 5 x2 with a metal screen floor with automatic feeders and waterers so a human does not even have to see the dog for a week at a time. I saw where this dog had lived her whole life and heard that she had never been out of the back yard and I just assumed that she would never make the grade for my needs.
> ...


Mike it don't make you the what ever you said above "low life" vendor. It just makes you one of there better vendors with the help of Gerben. From what you and Gerben have said is the pond is running dry. So maybe they will come up with something like Chris Jones said ( Just Kidding ). But there the customer so I guess they need to get what they ask for. There eventually going to make it harder and harder on you guys from what you explained what they are looking for and when the supply doesn't meet their demand I'm just curious if they will relise they need to go back to the drawing board on their test writing LOL.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

There are other vendors that I have come across in my time that have thought if the dog won't retrieve metal ( pipes,keys,etc... ) then the dog won't make a single purpose dog. You have a reason for this test and like you stated your not the guy writing these dam tests. Where on the other hand with out mentioning names there telling people this that don't have a reason for it because they have no contracts or any other reason for it. We all know or assume we all know that every detector dog on the planet is not a metal retriever. I just think its funny because even the people that don't have a requirement for it like you and the other actual contractors try playing the card and let many dogs slip through there fingers probally.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Sorry folks for some reason I keep on get screw on typing in these boxes and kicked off and then trying to add to them I cant. My first sentence is continued into the above paragraph.

I just think its funny because even the people that don't have a requirement for it like you and the other actual contractors, try playing the card and let many dogs slip through there fingers probally that would fit the requirements for more agencies. Somewhere along the line they have read about this or heard it from someone and have taken it to the extreme. Thats where I don't understand people.

Taking it to be the bible when they have never seen it done properly or for that matter and have never done it properly and say that. This is what they do for the military or this is what they do for the feds thats great but if your not selling them dogs, then shut the hell up. Problem is everybody wants to be a world class trainer but no one is willing to put the effort forth or the time in, or even bigger be the humble one and listen and keep there mouths shut. Instead people blow sunshine up peoples ass and miss represent the hell out of themselves. Everyday theres a new asshole trainer thats a class act trainer.

I will shut up now and get off my horse now and go have some whine and cheese LOL.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

I have a young GSD here now that I have in for testing and possible purchase. he will not retrieve metal, or even PVC. However his nerves are amoung the best and his hunt drive is really incredible.
This dog will make a super detection dog, I know that for 100% sure, but I can not use him because I dont have much demand for a single purpose "ball only" detection dog. It is a shame that this dog will go back because he really is a great dog, but I can not use him. If I were a trainer in a dept somewhere I could put odor on this dog very easily and make him a great detector dog.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> I have a young GSD here now that I have in for testing and possible purchase. he will not retrieve metal, or even PVC. However his nerves are amoung the best and his hunt drive is really incredible.
> This dog will make a super detection dog, I know that for 100% sure, but I can not use him because I dont have much demand for a single purpose "ball only" detection dog. It is a shame that this dog will go back because he really is a great dog, but I can not use him. If I were a trainer in a dept somewhere I could put odor on this dog very easily and make him a great detector dog.


Exactly my point Mike, I'm glad you stated the fact the even though hes not a metal dog he would still make a nice detection dog. And the reason you are giving him back is because your contract doesn't demand it not because he wont do the work. I'm glad to hear somebody out there has a clue.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Harry Keely said:


> Exactly my point Mike, I'm glad you stated the fact the even though hes not a metal dog he would still make a nice detection dog. .


I've got 44 detector dogs, working on a daily basis. None of them, to my knowledge, have ever been tested on whether or not they would retrieve metal. I don't want my patrol dogs picking up a knife or gun during article search. I don't want my bomb dogs picking up a pipe bomb. I would just as soon not have my drug dogs pick up anything. I look for what Mike talked about in an earlier post; hunt drive and the intensity of the retrieve. The dog tells me what he prefers, rolled towel, ball, toy, tug. If the dog has the intensity over a ball, but not a tug or a towel, that's ok with me. I don't believe in changing rewards anyway. If I can't find one object that drives that behavior, that's the deal killer for me. If I do find that one object, and the dog has the hunt drive to go along with that intensity, then it is off to the vet for the physical. I don't care "object" is used because I don't have to work for the object, the dog does. 

DFrost


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## Ang Cangiano (Mar 2, 2007)

Short vid of my personal dog playing with metal pipe - she has been taught to 'play nice' though as she is SchH trained so she does bring it back and drop it. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfvEApCrJWc

Ang


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## steven sheridan (Sep 21, 2009)

To go back to the topic of departments that wants these plug in play dogs, I have seen this as well. Correct me if Im wrong, but alot of departments, especially small ones, have been utilizing k9 teams more now than ever. I think another point to this is, the administrators don't want their officer's in school for four months. If they can purchase a dog and school and have them back working in eight weeks, then SOLD! My department has been using all green dogs for years before my time. Our administrators are used to officers being in school for a dual purpose school of four months, but smaller neighboring departments want their people back on the street like next week. Just wandering if this might be another outlook on the situation.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

David Frost said:


> I've got 44 detector dogs, working on a daily basis. None of them, to my knowledge, have ever been tested on whether or not they would retrieve metal. I don't want my patrol dogs picking up a knife or gun during article search. I don't want my bomb dogs picking up a pipe bomb. I would just as soon not have my drug dogs pick up anything. I look for what Mike talked about in an earlier post; hunt drive and the intensity of the retrieve. The dog tells me what he prefers, rolled towel, ball, toy, tug. If the dog has the intensity over a ball, but not a tug or a towel, that's ok with me. I don't believe in changing rewards anyway. If I can't find one object that drives that behavior, that's the deal killer for me. If I do find that one object, and the dog has the hunt drive to go along with that intensity, then it is off to the vet for the physical. I don't care "object" is used because I don't have to work for the object, the dog does.
> 
> DFrost


David I understand totally you methology. Point I was trying to make is that to many people are trying to lean towards if it aint metal it aint much. Which is fine if your in Mike's shoes but if your not your cutting your own throat and might be cutting the pool for these great detectors outside of the contractors. There is way to much B.S. going on with people trying to become these over night masters you know.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

steven sheridan said:


> To go back to the topic of departments that wants these plug in play dogs, I have seen this as well. Correct me if Im wrong, but alot of departments, especially small ones, have been utilizing k9 teams more now than ever. I think another point to this is, the administrators don't want their officer's in school for four months. If they can purchase a dog and school and have them back working in eight weeks, then SOLD! My department has been using all green dogs for years before my time. Our administrators are used to officers being in school for a dual purpose school of four months, but smaller neighboring departments want their people back on the street like next week. Just wandering if this might be another outlook on the situation.


Pug n plays are great if they work but they always don't work. Good thing with the plug N plays alot of places offer 30 day, 90 day and some plus that for exchanges. In the same token green dogs are great to because you can either work the problem out while in training or find a new one. Sometimes Green are better because you yourself or your head trainer can bring the dog up. Alot of departments that I know of are trying to bring in green dogs a year maybe a year and half in advance to get the dog up to snuff at your dept. training so that hoping the dog will take the place of the retired one. There is also agencies from small to big starting there own breeding programs.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

The 30 day school with the "plug and play" dog fits exactly with what I was saying about the erosion of talent in the police training world. The 30 day handler is an "operator". If something goes wrong if they don't have an on-staff technician, it either doesn't get fixed or they have to go outside to find help. It also bring up the real possibility of every dog man's nightmare - - - bad case law. 

DFrost


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

steven sheridan said:


> To go back to the topic of departments that wants these plug in play dogs, I have seen this as well. Correct me if Im wrong, but alot of departments, especially small ones, have been utilizing k9 teams more now than ever. I think another point to this is, the administrators don't want their officer's in school for four months. If they can purchase a dog and school and have them back working in eight weeks, then SOLD! My department has been using all green dogs for years before my time. Our administrators are used to officers being in school for a dual purpose school of four months, but smaller neighboring departments want their people back on the street like next week. Just wandering if this might be another outlook on the situation.


That's always been the main reason I've heard for the pretrained dogs . But it's more like purchase the dog and school and be back in 2 weeks that I've seen .


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

David Frost said:


> The 30 day school with the "plug and play" dog fits exactly with what I was saying about the erosion of talent in the police training world. The 30 day handler is an "operator". If something goes wrong if they don't have an on-staff technician, it either doesn't get fixed or they have to go outside to find help. It also bring up the real possibility of every dog man's nightmare - - - bad case law.
> 
> DFrost


very true David, chances of getting held up in a court is high as well as giving somebody a dog and say OK in thirty days you will be a expert is bad bad news to.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

David Frost said:


> The 30 day school with the "plug and play" dog fits exactly with what I was saying about the erosion of talent in the police training world. The 30 day handler is an "operator". If something goes wrong if they don't have an on-staff technician, it either doesn't get fixed or they have to go outside to find help. It also bring up the real possibility of every dog man's nightmare - - - bad case law.
> 
> DFrost


Exactly , learning to train behaviors from the beginning is a process handlers should go through . The handlers learn how the dogs learn new things . It also helps out with the flow of knowledge when working with other handlers . 

At least our Patrol Dog school (down from 12 to 10 weeks just for patrol add 3 weeks later for detection work) we train the handler on how to train their dog . Our detection classes are the same way . In these shorter classes with pretrained dogs the handler misses out on learning how to train , read and problem solve dogs . I feel bad for them really that's half the fun . Most of the time .


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Jim Nash said:


> That's always been the main reason I've heard for the pretrained dogs . But it's more like purchase the dog and school and be back in 2 weeks that I've seen .


In two weeks what do they hope to learn, how to poop scoop and take care of a dog LOL. No disrespect but thats very poor leadership skills and is putting people in a real predictment that are the new handlers.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

As for the original topic I guess if some agencies want to reject dogs that won't retrieve metal(silly really) is that necessarily bad for us ? They are passing on some good dogs leaving them out there for others with common sense to scoop up . 

If someone wants to come up with a funny requirement that limits the amount of dogs they can take out of the pool of dogs out there , I'm not going to b**** . Especially in a time where for most of us just getting a dog old enough to train for police work is a problem .


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

mike suttle said:


> But the point of most of these tests is to see what the dog will do by nature. There are some dogs who will dive under the car with such intensity that he scrapes the hair of his back on the car frame the very first time he sees this test, and some dogs dont have enough toy drive to go under the car after a toy the first time. If you are testing thousands of dogs per year, you tend to migrate towards the ones who did it by nature the first time. It is not really about going under the car, I can train any dog to go under a car, that is very easy. It is about where are the dogs reservations and how reckless is he about chasing and hunting for a toy. If he wont go under the car without help, then what else will he need help with? Believe me, some dogs will go under and over anything with no training, and some dogs wont do it without training. Everyone likes the dog who does not care about the environment around him. Again, these are the tests, I did not write the test. I am only a "lowlife dog vendor" who must find dogs for this purpose and I know what they will take and what they wont. It does not mean the dogs that fail are bad dogs, it just means they are not the right dog for this type of test.
> 
> I will give you an example. I just picked up a few patterdale terriers recently. I got one for my own ******* entertainment here on the farm. (killing every varmit that we can dig out of the ground and in the barns). The other pattedale I got to use for a detection contract that I am working on.
> The dog that I got for the detection contract is 6 months old. I had to get her that young because anything older than that was already started on critters. At 6 months this dog had been born and raised in a rabbit hutch. (about 5 x2 with a metal screen floor with automatic feeders and waterers so a human does not even have to see the dog for a week at a time. I saw where this dog had lived her whole life and heard that she had never been out of the back yard and I just assumed that she would never make the grade for my needs.
> ...



Mike, I think you will find a very high % of working terriers that will fit your needs. 
They are born with the "NO FEAR" tat on their brain. Mini-Mals with no environmental issues.:wink:


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

The whole subject pisses me off, and whether or not a metal retriever happens to be one of my dogs (couple are, most aren't), it'll have no bearing at all in my decision who/how to breed. Complete idiocy if you ask me.

Mike, maybe you better get into the cloning business, before your pond goes dry.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

While Customs may use the metal retrieve as criteria for their test, they aren't the only ones and it's not specific to the US. The only time I've ever seen it was when I was in Holland. I don't think the metal was copper, but what they used was about 5 inches long, hollow square shaped pipe that was about 3/4" on all sides. looks like this:










these weren't just used for testing. they were used in training. these pieces of pipe were stored in glass jars with the dope and they hid the pipe pieces. my memory is foggy on the final alert. i can't remember if they were aggressive alert dogs who dug out the pipe on their own or if the handler threw a piece of pipe. either way, the dog got a piece of pipe after the sit for his reward. each piece is only used for one search, then it is put in boiling water and then dried and back into the jar with the dope.

maybe customs learned it from the dutch...


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

:wink:


Tim Martens said:


> While Customs may use the metal retrieve as criteria for their test, they aren't the only ones and it's not specific to the US. The only time I've ever seen it was when I was in Holland. I don't think the metal was copper, but what they used was about 5 inches long, hollow square shaped pipe that was about 3/4" on all sides. looks like this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


:wink:


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

They gave me one of the pieces. I wasn't sure I could find it but I did:


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Thats funny thats the same kind of aluminum size pipe we use for alot of our applications. There was many of times that my litter would grab hold of scraps of this exact materail and would hold it and tug if I was to grab it and also would fight with each other over it. I have also caught my older puo and adults with it in there mouth and even have the mother of the pups that will grab schedule 40 and is very possesive of it. My litter is 7 months old and the whole litter is doing some form of bitework offcourse some better than others and different degrees. My question I guess is I understand mike's philosphy now that he explained. My question being a metal guy and not knowing myself is there something about copper that presents itself different to the dog then the other metals do?


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## kamphuis gerben (Jan 29, 2009)

those pipes are used by the klpd dutch police nunspeet they use it for scent discremination human odour 
they kook it steriel and than different people must keep for about 10 minutes to keep and hold their scent on it 
than they sealed for using later on 
i think in scentwork for costoms or borderpatrol it works a bit different 
greetings gerben


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

kamphuis gerben said:


> those pipes are used by the klpd dutch police nunspeet they use it for scent discremination human odour
> they kook it steriel and than different people must keep for about 10 minutes to keep and hold their scent on it
> than they sealed for using later on
> i think in scentwork for costoms or borderpatrol it works a bit different
> greetings gerben


Gerben you yourself being a metal guy like myself and me not knowing the answer maybe you can answer this for me. Is there something about Copper that is different then all other metals to a dog?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Yes. THere is a different taste to it.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Yes. THere is a different taste to it.


Thanks Jeff, what makes it such a taste though different then all the others. I have gotten both steel dust as well as aluminum dust in my mouth while grinding. There different taste LOL. What makes copper such a wierd one for dogs in all seriousness. Or if anybody else cares to comment.


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## James Lechernich (Oct 20, 2009)

Harry Keely said:


> Thanks Jeff, what makes it such a taste though different then all the others. I have gotten both steel dust as well as aluminum dust in my mouth while grinding. There different taste LOL. What makes copper such a wierd one for dogs in all seriousness. Or if anybody else cares to comment.


Someone didn't memorize the periodic table in 7th grade... [-X :-\":lol:


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

kamphuis gerben said:


> those pipes are used by the klpd dutch police nunspeet they use it for scent discremination human odour
> they kook it steriel and than different people must keep for about 10 minutes to keep and hold their scent on it
> than they sealed for using later on
> i think in scentwork for costoms or borderpatrol it works a bit different
> greetings gerben




I don't doubt that they ALSO use it for scent discrimination, but they use them for drug detection as well.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

James Lechernich said:


> Someone didn't memorize the periodic table in 7th grade... [-X :-\":lol:


Funny guy, I am if theres a reason that for it. Also is there any proof that makes a copper retriever crazier then any other metal retriever and if so why?


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## James Lechernich (Oct 20, 2009)

Harry Keely said:


> Funny guy, I am if theres a reason that for it. Also is there any proof that makes a copper retriever crazier then any other metal retriever and if so why?


Zingers out of the way, without knowing the chemical compositions of the different metals it's hard to say why copper is seemingly the one dogs dislike most. All I can say is that they don't seem to be the only animals with an aversion to it. Corrective bits for horses are usually made out of copper because it "softens" the mouth by irritating the tongue and causing their mouths to water.


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## Dwyras Brown (Nov 21, 2008)

Put a sterile piece of copper in your mouth, then place a sterile piece of steel in your mouth. The odd after taste and tingling you get from the copper is because of the coppers willingness to transfer electrons. One of the reasons copper is such a good electrical conductor. I would think the dogs' ability to taste is stronger than ours and so is their ability to feel the coppers' conductivity.

This would generally cause most dogs to not necessarily want to mouth the copper. But a dog that has a retrieve desire fanatical enough to want to retrieve copper, would more likely be easier to train detection. Just a thought.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

James Lechernich said:


> Zingers out of the way, without knowing the chemical compositions of the different metals it's hard to say why copper is seemingly the one dogs dislike most. All I can say is that they don't seem to be the only animals with an aversion to it. Corrective bits for horses are usually made out of copper because it "softens" the mouth by irritating the tongue and causing their mouths to water.





Dwyras Brown said:


> Put a sterile piece of copper in your mouth, then place a sterile piece of steel in your mouth. The odd after taste and tingling you get from the copper is because of the coppers willingness to transfer electrons. One of the reasons copper is such a good electrical conductor. I would think the dogs' ability to taste is stronger than ours and so is their ability to feel the coppers' conductivity.
> 
> This would generally cause most dogs to not necessarily want to mouth the copper. But a dog that has a retrieve desire fanatical enough to want to retrieve copper, would more likely be easier to train detection. Just a thought.


Good bits of information fellas, thanks.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Dwyras Brown said:


> Put a sterile piece of copper in your mouth, then place a sterile piece of steel in your mouth. The odd after taste and tingling you get from the copper is because of the coppers willingness to transfer electrons. One of the reasons copper is such a good electrical conductor. I would think the dogs' ability to taste is stronger than ours and so is their ability to feel the coppers' conductivity.
> 
> This would generally cause most dogs to not necessarily want to mouth the copper. But a dog that has a retrieve desire fanatical enough to want to retrieve copper, would more likely be easier to train detection. Just a thought.



Great explination Dwyras! I was getting splinters in my fingers from scratching my head in trying to think what you said.:wink:


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## kamphuis gerben (Jan 29, 2009)

i have a dog here whos biting on his metall kennelpipes all day that doesnt make him a metalretriever 
he searches small obsticals made out of every materials 9 mm gunnshals and so on 
for the work hes a pvc ,ball retriever that he is strong on that good drives for that ok he hunts for kopper but not half the way as on pvc 
that was and is my question i cannot see why this dog issnt a dog for costums or borderpatrol but i dont send him over because he issnt a kopper retriever in fact i go on save now and not buying any pvc retrievers anymore in this way iam passing many really good dogs ofcourse i feel bad about it 
but as i said i go on save and whith me many more what results in that the kopperretrievers are doubled up in price and pvc retrievers are bought whith the intensions off trying to train them to pick up kopper in my way of thinking its not a training issue because they must have it by nature i think by working whith pressure apport you loose the open drive requested 
greetings gerben


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

If this could be a comparable analog, I'd be interested in seeing duplicate searches with some of these dogs (copper, pvc, ball, etc) to see if their preference for these type of dogs truly equates to the success they perceive it to bring. Someone suggested that perhaps this "intensity" for non standard objects/rewards may mask the apparent lack of qualified handlers or units capable of test and tune the dogs to the degree necessary to maintain solid and consistent performance. As in a utilization of a bridge (pathway) that may in reality lead to no where. Maybe there's absolutely no relevance here if there isn't feel free to disregard my comments.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Nicole Stark said:


> If this could be a comparable analog, I'd be interested in seeing duplicate searches with some of these dogs (copper, pvc, ball, etc) to see if their preference for these type of dogs truly equates to the success they perceive it to bring. *Someone suggested that perhaps this "intensity" for non standard objects/rewards may mask the apparent lack of qualified handlers or units capable of test and tune the dogs to the degree necessary to maintain solid and consistent performance.* As in a utilization of a bridge (pathway) that may in reality lead to no where. Maybe there's absolutely no relevance here if there isn't feel free to disregard my comments.


if you accept the premise that a metal retriever has higher drive, then to suggest that selecting a higher drive dog is simply a tactic to mask sub-par handling is ridiculous. that's like saying that a faster car in NASCAR, Indy car, F1, etc is just used to mask a sub-par driver. all other things being equal, you want to select the dog with the highest drive regardless of the level of the handler...


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

So do you think that retrieving metal actually makes for a better detection dog ??

Testing prey drive to see what the hunt drive is and so forth ?? I am curious what the thought process is behind this, as with hunting, there are many dogs that will hunt all day and night, but don't even retrieve. Sure, different breed, but still. 

Also, with a dog with that kind of drive, what is the percentages that develop some weird OCD behavior ??


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> So do you think that retrieving metal actually makes for a better detection dog ??
> I dont think it always does. I will say that almost all of the strong metal dogs make great detection dogs, but there are also great detection dogs that dont retrieve metal.
> 
> Testing prey drive to see what the hunt drive is and so forth ?? I am curious what the thought process is behind this, as with hunting, there are many dogs that will hunt all day and night, but don't even retrieve. Sure, different breed, but still. The test is to evaluate many things.....retrieve drive, possesiveness, hunt drive, stamina, environmental nerves, biddability, etc.
> ...


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Suppose if they can reproduce "it", you'll be out of a job?


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## Dwyras Brown (Nov 21, 2008)

I think a lot of you sorta have the idea. Its not that the dog retrieve the metal, its about the fact that the dog is a retrieving fanatic. The dog will retrieve an object that he doesn't necessarily like to have in his mouth, but will retrieve the object anyway. The dog isn't forced to retrieve the object, the dog has a *"NEED"* to retrieve the object. The dogs desire to retrieve is what makes him easier to train for the detection work. 

Hopefully that makes it a little easier to understand.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Daryl Ehret said:


> Suppose if they can reproduce "it", you'll be out of a job?


You ever seen a Govt, breeding program be successful? The quality of dogs they use does not seam to matter. They usually have very good quality dogs in all of there breeding programs, but seldom get anything worth feeding out of the program. Maybe they will get very lucky and figure out how to do it right. Fortunately for me they are not my only customer.:-D


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Dwyras Brown said:


> I think a lot of you sorta have the idea. Its not that the dog retrieve the metal, its about the fact that the dog is a retrieving fanatic. The dog will retrieve an object that he doesn't necessarily like to have in his mouth, but will retrieve the object anyway. The dog isn't forced to retrieve the object, the dog has a *"NEED"* to retrieve the object. The dogs desire to retrieve is what makes him easier to train for the detection work.
> 
> Hopefully that makes it a little easier to understand.


 
I still don't get it...


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## Dwyras Brown (Nov 21, 2008)

Jody, I've read many of your posts and I know that you get it. Some won't or don't want to, but I know you get it.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Jody Butler said:


> I still don't get it...


:grin: I think it is easier to find the dogs than to explain the purpose of the test to some people:grin:


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Damn, thought I was get more details and stir the pot a bit.... LOL


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Originally Posted by Dwyras Brown 
I think a lot of you sorta have the idea. Its not that the dog retrieve the metal, its about the fact that the dog is a retrieving fanatic. The dog will retrieve an object that he doesn't necessarily like to have in his mouth, but will retrieve the object anyway. The dog isn't forced to retrieve the object, the dog has a "NEED" to retrieve the object. The dogs desire to retrieve is what makes him easier to train for the detection work. 

Hopefully that makes it a little easier to understand.

So, you have a dog that like metal ??


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## Dwyras Brown (Nov 21, 2008)

No Jeff, I don't. Do you want one?


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

mike suttle said:


> You ever seen a Govt, breeding program be successful? The quality of dogs they use does not seam to matter. They usually have very good quality dogs in all of there breeding programs, but seldom get anything worth feeding out of the program. Maybe they will get very lucky and figure out how to do it right. Fortunately for me they are not my only customer.:-D


Not _U.S. Govt_. to my knowledge, but I think some others do better than expected.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I am not sure that I do. I am getting to old for that kind of scamp to be running amok.


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