# Pups



## David C DeSimone (Jan 6, 2015)

This is their first time seeing this obstacle. They were to familiar with my other agility/disaster course and at 5-6 weeks old it's time to step it up. My "weakest" female in the pack is the most confident up here. She is the one who climbs over the other pup on the catwalk. What you can't see is the difficulty. Everything moves and makes noise up here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woVxgzkG7_c


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

your litter, or working them for someone ?

not trying to be critical, but could you please go into some detail on what you were trying to accomplish in that pup session.....i don't seem to get it 

i saw a lot of pups all over and you were putting treats down, but i'm unclear on what kind of training/conditioning was going on.

from my perspective it seems like some pups were getting some attention and others were being ignored. intentional ?

i didn't see the treats being used as rewards for any specific behaviours ... more like a group feeding session; or a way to keep them interested once they got up. was that the purpose(s) of the treats ?

you said you were raising the bar, but in some ways it looked like you were still evaluating them to see who "rises to the top"

last but not least....do you always work them together when they are doing agility work ?

for me at least, a LOT more interesting thread than girl scout cookies (sorry Lee)
thanx for posting it !!!!!


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## David C DeSimone (Jan 6, 2015)

Rick,

Yes this is my litter. 

When I get a chance I will post some of their first videos. They were way to fast. I don't have any pups in the litter who needs food to run that obstacle. I do use the pack at times. It cuts both ways it can help a pup that is stressed, at times it can be distracting, at times some pups get ignored and at times you can have pups flying off. I do run each one individually but I only have so much time in the day. And I average about 8-12 hours a day with these pups. For example it takes about 90 minutes do test the positive retrieve on each one. It takes about 3 hours to do that same test going from a well lighted room to a dark room rolling the ball for the retrieve. And for that session I use my sisters basement so they aren't on their home turf. I'm trying to expose them to as much as they are willing to give me before they go.

My only goal for this session was to make it as low stress as I could. It was a new course and it's not easy. By the time I was done for the day I had pups sleeping up there and I had pups going up at their leisure. 

As far as "some rising to the top." Well?????? There's not a pup in here that I couldn't work. Now with that being said, I might not want to work some of them because of were I'm at in my life. But there is not one who really pulls away from any of the other's. 

I agree with Gerben Kamphuis when he says, "The difference between the top 80% of pups isn’t that great." You could pull any of these pups out and have a nice working dog. I have only done 10 pups in 18 years but every single one went on to working homes, (1 SAR/FEMA- 4 K9's- 1 Private Security Firm 3 Drug Dogs and 1 Sport). And none of those pups have shown me what these pups are showing at 4, 5, and 6 weeks.

I'm always open for training suggestions.

This is a few years ago but yes I do work my pups one on one

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rs1guWoKmFA


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## David C DeSimone (Jan 6, 2015)

Let me be more precise with the quote from Kamphuis. He is speaking about KNPV litters and I agree 100%.


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## John Ly (Mar 26, 2014)

those are two seperate youtube accounts. which one is yours?


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## David C DeSimone (Jan 6, 2015)

Both the "ddlexis" is mine and I can't recover my password.

The other is my sons account.


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## Mike Di Rago (Jan 9, 2009)

David,
Nice work.I like this type of involvement from breeders.Too many breed pups and feed them till they leave and that is it. I think this periode (from5-8 weeks) should be used for imprinting,socializing,and exposing pups to different enviromental conditions and play situations. At best the new owner has a pup that is already ''more lit up'' and at worse the new owner has info on what to work on.
Again,nice work.
Mike


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## David C DeSimone (Jan 6, 2015)

Thank's Mike,

It has been a ton of work and I must be getting old because I thought pups slept all the time?

I have 2 FEMA evaluators and 4 K9 officers coming tomorrow. The two trainers from FEMA have tested hundreds of litters of the past 18 years, that I have known them. Personally I don't put much stock in the Volhard test, but I do value their opinion, because they are elite dog trainers. I know the litter because of the time I have invested. I use the test as one of many barometers when evaluating a pup up to this point.

I am one of the pack, so it will be interesting to see how they do with strangers in a sterile environment. There will be some here, who think that test is the "end all be all," but the data suggests otherwise. I can still use it as another tool among many that I implement. Plus it gives me another set of unbiased eyes. I'm very critical of dogs, my dogs in particular. But when you raise a litter and devout the time I have, I'm sure I have a bias. 

I use the biotinus test (latin for vigor of life) and I do the bio sensory stimulation. Again I don't think there is anything behind the bio sensory, but it's so benign, I do it anyway just to get hands on the litter at days 3-18. In fact with the exception of the cold and q-tip test, everything else happens in the whelping box naturally. 

I had some pups walking blind on day 8-9. And at week three it was on. They have been on a open grated metal bridge which spans about a 100 feet and is 30 feet above a river. On rocks that must seem like boulders, in the 5 degree river. On the playground up and down slides, steps, etc. They are oblivious to power tools, leaf blowers, and lawnmowers. I have one video with them tugging on a burlap bag full of cans. It's attached to a spring pole I built. Once they were on I drug all of them over to the leaf blower while they were on the tug. I don't even tug anymore because the fight drive is so extreme. And I'm tired of giving blood. 

One things for certain, I've done as much imprinting as I could so who ever gets these pups..... well? They are getting something hot! I have to be careful on where they go. One good thing is all the males and one female are going with K9 officers. I will be keeping a male and female and the rest of the females I think are accounted for and going to experienced handlers.

If you can think of anything I haven't done I'm looking for ideas.

Thanks,
David


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## Nick Hrycaj (Mar 30, 2014)

David,

Where did you get your start with breeding? Did you learn about the selection testing and Gerben Kamphuis's approach from one resource or a combination?


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

David C DeSimone said:


> I have 2 FEMA evaluators and 4 K9 officers coming tomorrow. The two trainers from FEMA have tested hundreds of litters of the past 18 years, that I have known them. Personally I don't put much stock in the Volhard test, but I do value their opinion, because they are elite dog trainers. I know the litter because of the time I have invested. I use the test as one of many barometers when evaluating a pup up to this point.
> David


Do the FEMA evaluators perform the Volhard test as part of their evaluation?


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## David C DeSimone (Jan 6, 2015)

Nick,

I leaned heavy on two breeders one here in the states that has strong west german line GSD's and from a big breeder in Daelenberghutte Belgium when I was breeding GSD's. I have done both line breeding and outcrossing. I would like to tell you one works better than the other but I'm not that bold. I also rely on some of the big working breeders here in the states for their insights. What I can tell you is it all comes down to knowing your bitch and the stud inside and out. Then they have to reproduce who they are, and you don't know that until the first litter is at least a year old. 


I read Gerben's interview and know someone who talks to him on a regular basis. I have seen only a fraction of what these two gentlemen see and produce but his "80%" quote is accurate given what i've seen and been hearing in KNPV lines. I live in Virginia and it's a mecca for elite trainers/handlers. I could put any pup from my current litter in homes where I know the trainer, and the dog would excel. I'm not saying all the pups are 10's but what I am saying is, there's enough there for the right handler to have a good working dog. I think Gerben may be factoring that into his remarks. I will ask my friend to pose that question to him and get back to you with the response. Europe has better handlers than we do here in the U.S., and it's not because we aren't capable.

As far as other resources, I like some of what Susan Clothier is doing and it resonates with me. I can p.m. you the particulars if you are interested. I would say the majority is spending a lot of time with dogs over an 18 year span. I will never cast the die on a pup at 7 weeks with any of the tests or imprinting that I do because there will inevitability be a sleeper. But I can usually predict what is there in the raw state.


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## David C DeSimone (Jan 6, 2015)

Sarah,

Yes they use the Volhard test. I don't personally use the Volhard test in isolation but I do use it collectively. It's another piece of the picture. I like the evaluators and have known them for 18 years. They have worked all the big disasters and bombings and see great dogs weekly. They get deployed internationally and routinely give seminars all over the world, with one of the other gentelman who was in attendance today. They have seen and tested hundreds if not thousands of pups so I value their input. The way they test, is the way they train, very precise. It gives me another set of eyes and allows me to see the pups in a raw state under a little duress. From what I have read the data is not behind the Volhard test. I can forward you a link or post it on here.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

I used the Volhard when I was picking my #5 dog. Partly because I had access to the litter on Day 49 and partly because I wanted to see what it was all about. I pulled out Sam's puppy sheet about 6 years later and it was pretty spot on with what I ended up with as a grown dog. I tried doing it with #6 dog but the breeder kept interfering and prevented me from doing it. I don't think I would use the test as the sole measure but it gave useful information to me. When I tested Sam's litter, the breeder felt that everyone was pretty much equal. The test said they weren't and, for the ones I was able to track, backed up the test. I know there are some that say its total junk science and some only select based on the test. For me? Still a bit on the fence but accurate based on my limited example and not something I will dismiss out-of-hand.


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## David C DeSimone (Jan 6, 2015)

Sarah the were no glaring discrepencies yesterday when they performed the test on my litter. I like the test if that's all I have access to and I really, really like it because I know the ones evaluating. However my pick male that I kept back did not test at the top. And he didn't have to because I had spent the past 7 weeks with him. The male that did the best on the test would have been my last pick male. But once again I raised the litter, and what I like may be totally different from what someone else likes. I like extreme prey, extreme fight, social dominance, but will let anyone hook the lead up and work, bomb proof enviromentally and agile as a cat. I like civility when tapped into and very little defense. Any dog that wants to get fed here, has to have those gears including the females. I read a quote on here by someone and I agree 100%! "Prey drive gets the dog to the fight, and fight drive is what keeps him/her there." Now that is a truism! This can be applied to many facets of dog training not just bite work. 

My pick female scored the best and she wants to be an alpha and is very independent according to the Volhard test. The testers are glad she's staying here I had an alpha dog once it's no fun IMO. She will be a beta here, but I know she will push her limits She's just a pup so we will see how it shakes out. My bitch is going to a PD (only because I had to spay her during the pregnancy) She would not believing otherwise. So I'm going to bring the female pup along and I'm going to pick up another strong bro bitch that has similar bloodlines.

My females as a group tested better than the males and this does not surprise me. Females tend to mature faster than males and are generally more willing to please. I had two females that scored 7's on the pain sensitivity all the males were 2-4. lol Mom is a hard bitch when it comes to pain but very handler sensitive. A joy to work.


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## David C DeSimone (Jan 6, 2015)

Sarah,

What's interesting about that study I sent you is, at the very end after they have picked the test apart the author gives us this statement.

"Our results suggest that early behavioural tests yield poor predictability regarding future behaviour in pet dogs. While there are some indications that puppy tests may have the potential to identify negative extremes (e.g. [27]) and may serve to predict outcomes such as working dog success, we want to caution against over-interpreting results from these early assessments and highlight the importance of experiential factors in the course of ontogeny in influencing the adult dog's behaviour. Despite the blossoming of dog research in the last decades, we are still at the beginning of understanding dogs' behavioural development. Future studies should investigate developmental trajectories by repeatedly assessing dogs between the age of 6 weeks and 1.5 years and by following them up into old age. This will yield further insights into the ontogeny of behaviour in dogs and the question from what age meaningful predictions about later behaviour can be made."

So????


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

My thoughts on all the puppy tests.

I do believe they can predict what the tester is looking for.

However, the breeder test the pup and says such and such but then the new owner comes along and raises the pup completely different then what the breeder would. 

When I've tested litters for others I would only say "This is what I see at this time". 

Selecting for myself and I've not had any disappointments in getting what I see at 4-5-6 weeks of age.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

IMO there's nothing more valuable or a better "test" than dealing with a breeder who knows his or her dogs/lines. 

BTW David, the man I recall first saying that quote from was David Frost. Someone else may have said it before him, but he's the first I ever heard it from.

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/102570-post5.html


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## David C DeSimone (Jan 6, 2015)

Thank's Nicole,

I couldn't remember who said it, but I will be reading David Frost to see what else I can pick up

I agree with you 100% on the breeder's!


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## David C DeSimone (Jan 6, 2015)

My bitch went to Chesterfield PD today:sad:

But on their first test she was on them like white on rice:mrgreen:


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Glad to hear that. I hope you like her replacement just as much as you seemed to like her. What caused her to be spayed after delivering pups?


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## David C DeSimone (Jan 6, 2015)

She was in labor for 44 hours. First pup was born at 10:00 a.m. then nothing. I took her to my vet at 3:00 p.m. and he gave the first shot off Oxytocin, then she had pup two at 4:00 p.m.. We gave another shot at 4:30 p.m, and I brought her home. I gave the third shot at 6:30, and pup three came at 7:00 p.m.. Then 4,5,6, and 7 all came 40ish minutes apart. She looked like she was done, so I gave the last shot of Oxytocin at midnight and at 4:30 a.m., pup 7 showed up. The next day my vet wanted to do a x-ray just to be safe. He did an exam first, and thought he felt two more up in her belly and the picture revealed as much. We thought it was hormonal but she was nursing the other pups well. We just weren't 100% percent. He gave two more shots, and no pups. They had not dropped, and he could barely get his hand on a tail or foot, even if he could have got one pup out, it would have been in pieces, and he never could have reached the other one.

The c-section was to save mom and it did not look good for the pups. He said, maybe 20% chance at that point, but you never know. Based on what was happening we felt spaying was the best option and I agreed. After he got her opened up it was uterine inertia:sad: She was really stretched out because the size of the litter. The uterus stopped contracting. With hindsight she probably didn't have to be spayed, then again who knows. Either way I didn't want her to have to go through that again. Although she never made a sound, and would have chased a ball, if I had thrown one for her. LOL She had one tramadol. The only reason I gave it was, so she could get some well deserved rest. Never once did she complain. What a phenomonal bitch! 

The female I held back looks real good:mrgreen: But it's still early.


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## David C DeSimone (Jan 6, 2015)

I forgot he saved pups 8 and 9! Lucky and Lazarus. LOL


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

That sounds like a rough ordeal and a tough decision. I'm guessing this was her first litter?

BTW I think you are kind of interesting. A lot of the guys on the forum (unless it's rick with his strange form of writing that no one seems to appreciate but him) rarely post more than a few lines, if that, and getting expalantions or answers from them is like pulling teeth sometimes. As a newer member I find your willingness to speak to people and openly so, kinda cool.

For what it's worth, I'm sorry you had to make the decision you did about spaying your female. That's one of those things where whatever the decision is - you just got to let it go and be alright with your choice. Clearly you did and are.


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## Meg O'Donovan (Aug 20, 2012)

How do pups 8 & 9 compare to the others in the litter? Smaller, slower, less bold? Maybe not, I'm just wondering how the extended labor would affect pups, if at all.
It must have been a hard choice at the time, but you maybe saved the bitch's life by operating. 

In a kelpie litter in Sept., the last pup came a full 24 hours after the rest. We knew it was in there because of prior ultrasounds but the female didn't seem in duress, so we waited. First litter for the dam. The pup was born smaller than its sibs, but it seemed to catch up by two months, probably because the dam was a good mom and there were only 6 pups.

Like Nicole says, kudos to you for sharing what you know and have seen.


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## David C DeSimone (Jan 6, 2015)

Nicole Thank you for the kind words! I know my post are not perfect prose or sometimes coherent so thanks. I have lurked here for a long time and there is a wealth of information by many of the posters.

It was tough with Ziva and to think we were going to lose two pups. I was surprised how much it concerned me. I guess I'm going soft in my old age. LOL

It was hard to see her go today but she is the type that has to work 12 hours a day. I knew the department that took her uses towels as rewards. Her prey items are everything but towels. Yesterday I took her out (against my better judgement) to throw the towel spin her and make her hunt. No issues at all as I suspected. In fact it was to easy because you can't trow a towel far to begin with. When she returned with the towel I tugged and made a big fuss. I picked up a rock rubbed it on my torso and threw it as far as I could in the woods. It took about 7 minutes but she came back with the rock. She has done nothing since the litter hit the ground. I put her up and the rest of the day she was barking, running, and slamming herself into the kennel. I had to bring her inside to shut her up. 

I could have easily kept her and she would have been happy, but she will really be happy working everyday. I didn't want to be selfish. Besides she will be seen and showcased. They invited me to the Iron Dog trials here where I live and hopefully that will open some doors in the future. Four pups of hers are in K9 homes and one of the gentleman has one that thing twice with his dog. Once the pup matures out who knows maybe he can win with her.


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## David C DeSimone (Jan 6, 2015)

Meg,

That's a good question. Pups eight and nine were both girls. Pup eight was the runt and nine was uniform with the rest of the litter. The first 3-4 weeks the runt seemed to be the one who was slow to check things out. After that she really poured it on and has come a long way. Pup nine is my best ball retriever. I stopped throwing on number ten. She does not like to give it up and I have to tug hard to get it from her. She can even carry a softball at 7 weeks:-o

The fourth pup was the first female and she is the "weakest" for lack of a better adjective. None of them are weak or are going to first time handlers. She ended up being the runt and she scares me the most out of all the females. She's the first one barking, snapping in your face, teeth clacking when she strikes for a bite, (Bernhard Flinks says thats a sign of extreme drive) and when all the other pups are ready to nap she's the one going around getting her licks in. I don't know if it's because of her rank in the pack, insecurity, or both? I have video of her on the agility course when I was inside eating dinner:mrgreen: She definitely has confidence, but I haven't quite figured her out. She went to a police handler friend so she will fly with him. I could work any of these pups but I really want to work the two I kept back\\/

Did you see any confidence in your runt? If so was it in the pack? Or was it on her own if any? I'm grateful I didn't have any that got mauled by the pack. I have in the past and had to separate because it was awful.

I will provide a link of the "weak" one on the agility and the c-section pup and her ball fetish. LOL


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## David C DeSimone (Jan 6, 2015)

My laggard:-o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xPFSXaAY5o


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## David C DeSimone (Jan 6, 2015)

Sorry for the poor quality but I was on my deck. If you look close where the "catwalk" is you can see something swaying up and down. That is two goat panels they have to navigate with a 3'x12" foot board.


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## David C DeSimone (Jan 6, 2015)

Update on the pups. Three males and three females all went to K9 homes. I kept one female and one male back. The remaining female I'm not sure if she's going or staying. The litter was very uniform. One surprising note is how different the Mals were compared to the Dutchies. Maybe this was/is an anomaly, but at times they seemed like they were two seperate litters:-k


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## David C DeSimone (Jan 6, 2015)

Meg O'Donovan said:


> How do pups 8 & 9 compare to the others in the litter? Smaller, slower, less bold? Maybe not, I'm just wondering how the extended labor would affect pups, if at all.
> It must have been a hard choice at the time, but you maybe saved the bitch's life by operating.
> 
> In a kelpie litter in Sept., the last pup came a full 24 hours after the rest. We knew it was in there because of prior ultrasounds but the female didn't seem in duress, so we waited. First litter for the dam. The pup was born smaller than its sibs, but it seemed to catch up by two months, probably because the dam was a good mom and there were only 6 pups.
> ...


Meg I have an update on the two C-section pups. Like I stated previously pup 8 was the runt and was the most reserved in the pack. She ended up being one of my biggest females and really poured it on. She also has the deepest and most tenacious bite. Her bite is all genetic and something to be seen not described. She doesn't come off easily even on lift offs. I can flip her upside down and she will stay on indefinitely. It's so bad (good lol) I have been choking her off. As soon as I lift up on her collar she wraps her legs around the prey item. My concern is she will either pass out, or I will damage her vocal chords soon. Each time she gets a little stronger because of the frustration being built. Her father has passed out twice that I have seen in person. I've even tried transferring her to another prey item. She's at the age where I can correct her for mistaking me for the prey, and in case she leaves here, I want her to have some manners. So far a level 7 scruff shake with a hard no, gets me more growling, pushing into the bite, and on ocassions turning into the bite, which is usually my flesh!! I can go into detail what my decoyed did. If you are interested pm me. This is not my "pick" female either. I don't think I will do much more rag work with her for the time being. The fight drive is there and can be tapped into later.


The other C-section also has a ridiculous grip but not to that extreme. She was with a decoy for two weeks, because he could not make up his mind on which female he wanted. Needless to say she got some work in while he was deciding. Her ball drive is probably the best out of the litter at this point, and that seemed to be the case the entire time I had her. She would carry a softball around, and for such a small head it was impressive. She will love on you and is a sweetheart. The other females will love on you as far as puppies go, but to the extent I can say they are "serious" at 10 weeks, well the other females seem to have a little more edge on them. 

One more interesting piece of data is on the Volhard test the two C-section pups scored the highest on pain sensitivity. The entire litter averaged 2-4 seconds on the pinch test. The two C-sections went 7-8 seconds. Mom was very handler sensitive, but had very high pain thresholds both in and out of drive.


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## David C DeSimone (Jan 6, 2015)

Crush training in white out conditions. Forgive my handling skills but I'm in a sling for six weeks. 


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P71oc-ZDvQE


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## David C DeSimone (Jan 6, 2015)

Chief 12 week old pup. Day 3 odor imprinting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOR_xmBmuW0


Crush 12 week old pup. Day 3 odor imprinting.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hjsbs_4gyXg


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## Nick Hrycaj (Mar 30, 2014)

I think your camera person for the snow one needs a raise! 

You tug at all prior to the obstacles? Do you reward with bite each time after the course? I think the accidental slipping of the corrugated stuff will pay dividends come slick floor exposure


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## David C DeSimone (Jan 6, 2015)

Nick Hrycaj said:


> I think your camera person for the snow one needs a raise!
> 
> You tug at all prior to the obstacles? Do you reward with bite each time after the course? I think the accidental slipping of the corrugated stuff will pay dividends come slick floor exposure



My film crew was not happy, that was the third pup we had run I don't reward each time. I was using the burlap on a different pup and happened to have it on me. The pup in the video will run that obstacle in her sleep with little or no luring. The other female, and my male seem to do better with a toy reward. I prefer to use food when starting young pups to keep them calm on different surfaces. 

I think your right, and have seen all the pups slide or lose their footing. I never had one that panicked. They remained calm and cool until they gathered themselves to continue on. I even had some fall off but would always get back up there. They all have great footing, hopefully their new owners will continue to expose to different surfaces and obstacles.


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