# Paperless...



## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Under what circumstances, if at all, would you buy a dog paperless? Will you necessarily pay 'less' for a good unpapered dog than a papered dog, and would you discriminate between breeds? (For example, it seems to me Mal people are much more okay with not having papers than say, GSD people).


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I couldn't breed paperless dogs (gsd's anyway), so I would only have a paperless dog if I had intent to resell. I would certainly pay less because of no-papers, but that could actually be more after considering the other things that matter, like strong temperament, fitness for true work, HD-free...


----------



## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Depends on what you want. If the pedigree means more to a person than actual working ability then no amount of debate will change a persons' mind. Personally, I think pedigree means more in the show ring than anywhere else. When your ass is twisting in the wind, no peice of paper is going to help you. Its akin to a domestic violence injunction....if the spouse wants to get you , he will. The only thing thats realistically going to stop him is a gun or other strong weapon. 

If you're a poser in the K9 world, then that piece of paper might get you some level of respect. To those that really know dogs, they could give a flip as long as the dog works. I've worked with a few "good" dogs (on paper) and wasn't impressed at all. In reality though...the papers do help sales and breeders as the vast majority of people aren't looking for a working dog, just an ego trip.

Howard


----------



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Daryl Ehret said:


> I couldn't breed paperless dogs (gsd's anyway), so I would only have a paperless dog if I had intent to resell. I would certainly pay less because of no-papers, but that could actually be more after considering the other things that matter, like strong temperament, fitness for true work, HD-free...


Daryl I feel the same way, resale only. Paperless in my book also means FREE. If a stockdog is needed and no breding is done, free. If a guard dog is needed and no special conditions are attached, free. Mixed breeds, free. I try and stay away from most of that as I don't want to be a dumping ground for other's poor choices. =;


----------



## Will Kline (Jan 10, 2008)

I have heard stories of people who "get papers" on dogs that are great workers but not actually papered in both GSD and Mali worlds so I guess you really have to depend on your knowledge of the lines, breeders ethics and personal knowlege of the actual litter your considering.

In the end I agree with both of the Howards points on usage of the dog and accompanying costs:free if not papered.


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

My parents always had dogs with pedigrees, and here in Siwitzerland at one time it wasn't possible to enter official trials if the dog hadn't got one, but that wasn't the real reason. I like to follow back and see what sort of dogs my dog stems from. It's an advantage to see how many HD free dogs the breeder has produced, and if I need support I usually get it. I know people who keep to the same breeder for years, satisified with the dogs he's producing.

I think the Jack Russell suffered from joining the FCI when I look at some of the JRTs I see here. A famous Swiss Equestrian, Christine Stückelberger made them popular by always having them accompany her and afterwards a lot of horse owners carried on the fashion. If you stamp your foot at them, they flee.

I know a lot of people who buy dogs without pedigrees, some are "leftovers" i.e. some breed clubs only allow a certain number, 8 - 10, and the rest are sold without papers. A lot think that without paper the dog will be cheaper but after they've paid all the vet's bills, etc. they usually come off worse. A lot of planning and work goes into breeding and folks don't appreciate it often enough. It's easy to let your bitch get pregnant, intentionally or not but that has nothing to do with breeding.


----------



## Chelsea Foster (Jun 3, 2008)

I will be buying a new pup in November and he/she will not have any papers. The pup will be a Dutch Shepherd and will be coming from The Netherlands. 

I don't really care that the pup won't have papers except for the fact that we will not be able to win The CRA Championship.....but that doesn't mean that we can't show up the winner.


----------



## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Chelsea Foster said:


> I
> I don't really care that the pup won't have papers except for the fact that we will not be able to win The CRA Championship.....but that doesn't mean that we can't show up the winner.


 I really love that attitude!\\/


----------



## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

My dog is paperless and isn't without problems, but he makes the registered dogs I have owned in the past seem like dog impersonators in body and spirit.

These are two different breeds, so it's an apples and onion thing I suppose.


----------



## Michael Santana (Dec 31, 2007)

The day a sheet of paper is willing to take a hit for me is the day ill care about it more then my dog.[-(


----------



## Jamielee Nelson (Apr 24, 2008)

All of my dogs are paperless 
I guess if I were buying it from a breeder I trusted I wouldn't care about papers. I don't breed so I don't really need them I just need to know the dogs have good genetics.
I would expect to pay less for a non-paper dog then one who comes with papers though... and I have but in the end i've ended up paying the same.


----------



## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I've stated my views on this many times. I don't buy puppies, I don't breed. My only concern is the dog selected is able to perform the tasks for which he was purchased. Beyond that, to me, it's all fluff.

DFrost


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

How about the difference between paperless (no registration) versus pedigree-less (no idea about who or what the parent(s) were)?


----------



## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

There are lots of performance bred animals that don't have any registries. Alaskan huskies are a good example in that they are selected for performance characteristics - so while you might not have "papers" they are definitely "pedigreed" in most cases. My two most expensive dogs are one of my siberian females (papered) and one of my alaskan females (unpapered) - but both were bred for working characteristics. 

The general public thinks in terms of how a dog looks - and less on how it acts and has a perception that papers are an indication of quality (and $ value) - while they are really just the geneology of the dog- good or bad.

Still makes it hard to explain to people how much you spent on that mutt appearring dog....:lol:


----------



## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

This is kind of a complicated question, because there are many instances where people will choose to buy a paperless dog.

KNPV dogs get away with not having papers. The lines are documented, but the dogs are mostly crosses and not recognized by an official governing body such as FCI or AKC. But the dogs are good, and many people breed these lines knowing full well that there are no papers. And people still buy the pups. However, buying a KNPV line puppy is a lot cheaper than buying a pedigreed mal or dutchie pup. Ofcourse, that doesn't mean the pedigreed Dutchie pup is worth a damn.....

The Czech seem to be breeding alot of Mal/GSD crosses that are sold as police dogs. So for them, they are purposely breeding crosses with no papers, and they are selling them to people who need a dog for performance.

As Maren pointed out, there is also a difference between paperless and historyless. Many times people breeding unpapered dogs do know the lineage of the dogs.

To say that a dog that has no papers is worthless for breeding is bullshit. It depends what you are breeding and who you are breeding for. If I remember correctly, Kristina Senter has a KNPV line malinois with no papers and she breeds and sells the pups just fine. I am also sure she knows the bloodlines behind her dog too, even if it's not written on a piece of paper with an AKC stamp.

However if you have a GSD, people are less willing to accept a GSD without a pedigree because theres not really many (any?) great unpapered GSD bloodlines being developed. However, you will find Mal's with GSD's in their unofficial pedigrees and Mal/GSD crosses all the time.

As for papers only being valid in the show ring... I think that they are important from a breeding perspective, at least as far as knowing and verifying the lineage goes. If you are putting 2 dogs together to breed and you have no idea what their background is, who's to say the dog isn't just a complete fluke and the puppies will be complete crap? Pedigrees help people keep track of what to expect out of breedings and use as a guideline. No matter who breeds what, there will always be shitter pups from the best lines.


----------



## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

David Frost said:


> I've stated my views on this many times. I don't buy puppies, I don't breed. My only concern is the dog selected is able to perform the tasks for which he was purchased. Beyond that, to me, it's all fluff.
> 
> DFrost


Ditto



Howard Gaines III said:


> Daryl I feel the same way, resale only. Paperless in my book also means FREE. If a stockdog is needed and no breding is done, free. If a guard dog is needed and no special conditions are attached, free. Mixed breeds, free. I try and stay away from most of that as I don't want to be a dumping ground for other's poor choices. =;


So, my paperless KNPV Malinois from Holland should have been free???? Damn. Wish I would have known that before I wrote the check for that nutty dog. I paid quite a bit for that dog as a single-purpose detection candidate for USAR.

(I know that's probably not what you were referring to, Howard, but it made me laugh)


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I guess I took the title too literally! I'm not just on a paper chase=P~ 

For me a good breeder is one who knows how to breed dogs for the purpose that they are required. One of my neighbours breeds Dachshunde and knowing how she goes about it, and knowing that her husband and two sons are huntsmen and having seen two of her litters, I'd buy a dog from her, paperless or not.

What I hate are the "pocket money breeders" who just mate the dogs for the litter's sake££$$€€. 

The breeders under the Swiss Kennel Club have each litter checked out by a breed warden, have a lot of expenditure in paperwork, obtaining certification, etc. Amongst these there are corrupt breeders, unfortunately, but that's why I vet the breeder before I buy a dog, as it tells me more than the paper does. 

Apart from this some doors are closed to us if the dog doesn't have papers, one of which is Mondioring.


----------



## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

> one of which is Mondioring.


Really? Is that in all countries???


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I don't know about other countries, but I assume it's the same if they belong to the FCI. Mondioring is the only ringsport recognized by the FCI and all breed can participate but have to have FCI pedigrees.

Talking about papers, I read that KNPV dogs also have breed papers but they don't give as much info as FCI papers. It's getting confusing with all these rules - I keep forgetting, too, that the UK and USA are "only" affiliated to the FCI and so have completely different rules as to breeding, sport. Am I right?


----------



## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

> Talking about papers, I read that KNPV dogs also have breed papers but they don't give as much info as FCI papers.


They dont have papers as far as I am aware, but most of their pedigrees are recorded at www.bloedlijnen.nl



> It's getting confusing with all these rules - I keep forgetting, too, that the UK and USA are "only" affiliated to the FCI and so have completely different rules as to breeding, sport. Am I right?


Correct. There are no regulations for breeding in the US. If your dog has papers and you breed to another dog with papers of the same breed, then the puppies get papers. You don't need papers to compete in Schutzhund, I don't know the organization specific rules, but I know DVG will allow a dog to trial without papers, and perhaps also Schutzhund USA.


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

IPO at national level is the same, no papers required but then not many "Heinz 47" get to IPO3, no defamation, it is so.

Most of our Heinz 47 varieties are to be found in "Swiss BH" or our "Swiss VPG". or Agility, Mobiility and Competition Obedience. 

We do have one good thing and that is "Rules". Here children can compete among themselves. The competitions are based on the adult's programme, i.e. BH, VPG (Swiss style) and the idea is to recruit young people to the dog sport in general. They have Dog Camps and Meetings and it's great to see how these kids work with their dogs. We could take a leaf out of their book sometiimes.

There is also Junior Handling for showing dogs, too.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> Correct. There are no regulations for breeding in the US. If your dog has papers and you breed to another dog with papers of the same breed, then the puppies get papers. You don't need papers to compete in Schutzhund, I don't know the organization specific rules, but I know DVG will allow a dog to trial without papers, and perhaps also Schutzhund USA.


Yes, for Schutzhund USA, your dog doesn't need papers and is just listed as "mixed" on the scorebook unless you get an AKC ILP. When I had Zoso (who has no papers, likely being a cross bred shelter dog) run the AD, there was even a lady who had an "Alaskan Noble Companion Dog" run with her. Big and black wolfy looking thing with yellow eyes.


----------

