# Is this good training ??



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

As far as this type of work, is this what is typically done ??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXihmIWHh54&feature=rec-HM-r2


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## R Janssen (Jul 25, 2008)

Everyone has his own way, but its with the same goal to build frustration.
I normally use a small soda bottle with some rocks, and a working glove in the first weeks.

My old man never did those things in the old days, he always says to me the bitework was never a problem for him. 
(need to add he has +35 years KNPV decoy experience, so that maybe part of it.)
Most of the time it where small things, like retrieving small iron objects and so on.

Just Finnish'd the iron retreving with our pup, i simply start with a key bush (not sore it the translation is richt)
Where i putt different object on, like a small piece of PVC pipe, small piece of rubber pipe, 2 empty .38 cases 1 from iron and 1 from brass.
And to make it a little more interesting a small Cat bell that makes some noise.
Going along you make some adjustments, like more iron, and so on, sure you know what i mean.

The pup is so crazy now he retreves is own iron prong collar. :-\"

Mike Shuttle posted some nice video's a few days ago, they where good examples.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

I dunno sure is allot of video like this with pups and young dogs they must all end up in ring sports. I never here of or see them competing in Schutzhund.
I know little of the upbringing of dutch and mali Rene your old mans comment is fueling my suspicion about all this noise shit being nothing but noise. We have one of the top 10 Schutzhund Mals in the world in our club she never had to do any of the racket and drive shit to him. You could cut his paws off and lite him on fire and he would still make it down the field for a courage test.
Hell I bet this pup in the video could chew its own foot off or tail after having this shit done to it's so far out of its mind. And people talk shit about the table YIKES!!!


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

I think I know who this is in this video. If it is who I am thinking then he watched Hans and Gerben working the puppy like this one time and then he started doing it everytime he worked the puppy. I dont mind working some puppies in this way (or similar to this but not exactly) every now and then, but not all puppies can or will work this way at this age.
In the video that i posted of my puppies working I need to say that for every one time they get worked like that, they are worked on a pole (backtie) and taught correct gripping technique several times, and they are also given much success and confidence building drills also.
The problem with working a puppy like in this video (or even my video for that matter) every time is that the puppy never really wins, if he looses once or twice it will build frustration and drive, but if he looses EVERY time he will stop working over time.
I bounce back and forth from highly active noisy fast paced drills like this (only shorter in duration) to more conventional methods with the puppy in a harness on a pole working with a rag.
I can get this same behavior from almost all of the puppies born here at our kennel, but it takes a certian type of imprinting from very early age (about 3 weeks or so).
If this is the guy I think it is, then it was one of Gerben's puppies that he imprinted on the keys and "jerry can" for this guy.
My guess is that this guy filmed this a few days after he got the puppy because he was so impressed with the way Gerben had the pup working already. I would like to see this same dog now to be sure.
This type of training works great if youfully understand it, but to be honest in this video I dont think the guy fully understands it. I think he saw Hans and Gerben doing it and he is trying to mimick them.
Just my thoughts................


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

mike suttle said:


> I think I know who this is in this video. If it is who I am thinking then he watched Hans and Gerben working the puppy like this one time and then he started doing it everytime he worked the puppy. I dont mind working some puppies in this way (or similar to this but not exactly) every now and then, but not all puppies can or will work this way at this age.
> In the video that i posted of my puppies working I need to say that for every one time they get worked like that, they are worked on a pole (backtie) and taught correct gripping technique several times, and they are also given much success and confidence building drills also.
> The problem with working a puppy like in this video (or even my video for that matter) every time is that the puppy never really wins, if he looses once or twice it will build frustration and drive, but if he looses EVERY time he will stop working over time.
> I bounce back and forth from highly active noisy fast paced drills like this (only shorter in duration) to more conventional methods with the puppy in a harness on a pole working with a rag.
> ...


I couldent imagine what would happen to a pup/dog if to much of this was done over and over. Good to here there is more to this sort of training I'm still sceptical and like I said a hole lot different sort of way of doing things than I'm used to.:smile:


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Mike Scheiber said:


> I dunno sure is allot of video like this with pups and young dogs they must all end up in ring sports. I never here of or see them competing in Schutzhund.
> 
> Most of mine end up with Police Departments or Govt. Agencies, not in SchH or Ring sports, But I am pretty sure they could also do SchH or Ring work.
> The noise does not hurt anything, and my dogs are often tested by departments who try very odd and unusual methods to rattle the dogs, so I justy expose them to MANY different things as babies just to make sure they have seen it before when they are tested in this way as adults by a department or agency.
> ...


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## Mel Cobb (Jun 2, 2009)

HELL NO, that is not good training! The plastic bottles with the rocks is not a bad idea if the pup can actually hang on to it. A pup like that in my club that comes off the grip that many times in one session would be for sale. 

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is a plastic bottle, it is hard to hang on to...blah blah blah. Here is a video I took a few days ago of my 7 week old puppy biting a fur saver... 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAhYK7brhk0

Who cares, it builds frustration, which leads to a lot of barking (which is what this puppy is doing), which leads to bad grips. These types of pups nerves cannot handle this amount of defense. I say defense because you see the puppy backing up several times in the video.

Your pup should show good drive, good energy for the bite, once on the bite they must bite full, hard and calm. This way you get good points no matter what sport you are in. Remember barking is only a few points, no matter what sport you are doing.

This pup is just making a lot of noise. Personally not something I would want to see in a top level dog. Now let me rephrase this...if they made this much noise, the grip was good and they did not come off several times in one session, they bit once and maintained their grip without coming off, then this would be excellent. But from what I can see it is just a bunch of s*it training.

Steve


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Mel Cobb said:


> HELL NO, that is not good training! The plastic bottles with the rocks is not a bad idea if the pup can actually hang on to it. A pup like that in my club that comes off the grip that many times in one session would be for sale.
> 
> Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is a plastic bottle, it is hard to hang on to...blah blah blah. Here is a video I took a few days ago of my 7 week old puppy biting a fur saver...
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAhYK7brhk0
> ...


I will agree that the original video is not great training, and my belief is that when that video was made it was just after the puppy had been bought from a very good trainer and the people making this video were just trying to show off a nice puppy with good drives. If the people making this video work the puppy like for very long it will fall apart for sure. Now, having said that.......
i do believe the puppy in the original video is a very nice puppy, and yours is too by the way:wink:. But my bet is that if your puppy was worked in this way you would see very much the same behavior. I am sure you would not work your puppy in this way, but I am just saying that if you did I think you would see similar behaviors. In your video, the first time you tried to lift your puppy on the brush pile his grip shifted and he was about to let go of the soft bath towel. So I am pretty sure he would also let go of a hard plastic jug if you tried to do that with him too.
In the video of the first puppy I see a nice puppy that reacts like I would expect him to given the way he is being worked (which is not good training in my opinion)
In the second video (your puppy) I see a nice puppy who reacts like I would expect him to given the way he is being worked (which is much more sensible training in my opinion)
I think both puppies would behave similar under the exact same training conditions.
For example.......my puppies can easily be spun into ORBIT if i work them like the guy in the first video was working, and if I work that same puppy in the way your puppy was being worked they also behave like your puppy then.
Please dont take offense to this......I really like your puppy and the work you are doing with him, but I also think the first puppy is a very nice puppy as well, but with a less knowledgable trainer working him in a way that creates a few problems that could have been prevented.


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## Mel Cobb (Jun 2, 2009)

I agree 100% Mike. I think the training is s*it, not necessarily the pup.

Steve


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## R Janssen (Jul 25, 2008)

The dude in the clip is showing of his new pup, witch is a very nice one at that age.

I always use a soda bottle with some rocks, works fine for me.
(btw. Its for chasing not for biting as you suggest, you can't teach a good bite on plastic #-o)
Bite build up i do on a working glove the first weeks, also works great for me.

Although I'm not sure what you mean by :
"which leads to a lot of barking (""), which leads to bad grips"
I don't see a connection between barking and bad grips, is that a schutzhund sleeve thing.?

Also nice pup you have, especially if it is a FCI Dutchie, you don't find quality FCI Dutchies that often.
Hope he works out for you.


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## Kristina Senter (Apr 4, 2006)

IMO, both videos posted were of nice pups. I am in absolute agreement with Mike. 
I like to diversify training and I will occasionally introduce lots of noise, environmental stimulus and even intentionally stress a pup, shortly followed by a reward for working through it. The majority of my training is however much calmer, more focused and with lots of rewards for high frustration levels, without creating hecticness or handler conflict. 

For a moment the first video showed the pup on the jug, between the guy's knees and him lifting/scruffing the pup from behind on either side of his neck/shoulders. This is something I like to do to TEST a pup or to bring out a bit of an attitude in the right pup, but I see a lot of handlers/trainers doing it what I consider to be FAR too frequently in the training. I like a bit of posessiveness but this exercise done wrong or too frequently can build a LOT of issues down the road.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I thought the pup was pushed a bit too much, and I just thought that he should have been given something for the effort. That jug was a bit too big for him.

HA HA for once I was not trying to start anything. LOL

I thought the pup was nice, I was just wanting to see the difference in the training. 

I like a pup that brings his own to the work. I think all the noise and what not is just added stimulous. Just different training. About all I ever think about is dogs and training anymore. Well, that and soccer.


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