# Natural Correction



## Howard Gaines III

This afternoon I allowed my BC Split to see the new GSD puppy, Kata, off lead and with no safeguards. Like all kids, the pup lost her mind and came up on the back the BC...then with a QUICK correction, it was over! Understand this collie is easy going, BUT will not take foolishness from any size dog including the Bouvier which are 3x her size.

The pup was quickly rolled, face snapped, and released. I viewed this as a Sensai watching his blackbelt spar a lower rank and doing so with care. The pup NOW understands that there's a force field at the BC's rear and 20"+/- means correction! 

Throughout the rest of the walk, the pup hit the "field" and NEVER played with fire. As I watched, I'm reminded how natural corrections are BEST, and are many times better served than those which are given by the human power.


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## Don Turnipseed

Howard. thism is one of the main reasons I like raising all pups in a pack setting. They learn manners right out of the box. I hnoticedm that dogs raised by people, even myself, seldom have the ability to discern good behavior from bad. The pups parents instill this in the pups and it is an easy transition for the pups to make between the parents growl and "NO". Takes no time at all for them to understand the association.


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## Lynn Cheffins

Makes for much "polite-er" dogs with regards to other dogs. I find adult dogs that have been raised up this way don't over react to puppy antics either.


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## Timothy Saunders

I think its good if supervised. sometime one tough pup and and adult that doesn't take crap can have a bad ending


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## Don Turnipseed

Timothy, the way dogs are raised today, yes, keep a wary eye on them. I took this picture sometime back when I was in the yard. These dogs are unsupervised 24/7. Four mo old pup and some newborns. Dad, mom and the aunts have taught the older pups well. Mom even lets the older ones sleep with the newborns. Today, this situation would be a disaster because people insist on raising the pups.


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## Cassandra Lane

Don have you noticed a significant difference in the dogs that you raise and the dogs that are raised otherwise, with their people?


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## Don Turnipseed

Oh, big time difference Cassandra. The parents and aunts teach them that there are limits. Pass those limits and there is a price to be paid. People, including myself, just can't seem to master the discipline of young pups at such an early age as the parents. I have a bitch, Palin, I raised in the house. Smart as a whip and a huge PITA. Unlike all the other dogs, no means zip to her because she is going to do what she wants. I could straighten her out, but, I don't. I could do multiple dogs in the time it would take just to do her, so, I put up with her as is.


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## Bob Scott

I've always allowed my older dogs to correct any new pups I bring in for myself. 
Some people believe that it will make for a submissive adult later in life. I've not seen that.


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## Sara Waters

Bob Scott said:


> I've always allowed my older dogs to correct any new pups I bring in for myself.
> Some people believe that it will make for a submissive adult later in life. I've not seen that.


I would agree. I have an older ACD bitch and she absolutely adores pups when I bring them home and is also very good at sorting them out. I have had 5 youngsters come under her guidance and she is the undisputed matriarch but they certainly are not submissive dogs, they are confident and well adjusted.


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## rick smith

one of the reasons i would probably never buy a dog bred here and maybe the same stuff happens other places .... litters split up and sold off b4 momma has a chance to get em straight ... has been a BIG pet peeve of mine for years, and altho i've heard lots of reasons why it's not a big deal to split a litter early, i'm not convinced.....when to start selling em off could be another thread too


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## Bob Scott

rick smith said:


> one of the reasons i would probably never buy a dog bred here and maybe the same stuff happens other places .... litters split up and sold off b4 momma has a chance to get em straight ... has been a BIG pet peeve of mine for years, and altho i've heard lots of reasons why it's not a big deal to split a litter early, i'm not convinced.....when to start selling em off could be another thread too


I brought home more then one pup at 6 weeks. I've not seen any difference from any pups I've brought home at 8-10 weeks. 
I will say though that I haven't brought home a new pup when I didn't have at least one adult to "supervise" their dog manners.


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## Howard Gaines III

rick smith said:


> one of the reasons i would probably never buy a dog bred here and maybe the same stuff happens other places .... litters split up and sold off b4 momma has a chance to get em straight ... has been a BIG pet peeve of mine for years,...


I see mom getting them straight right from day one. And when it's time to leave the "milk machine" she isn't always easy! IF an older, unwise animal is doing nothing but dominating the pup...I see it as a RED FLAG in a prior unlearned pack behavior. Not saying the older dog is nuts, but everything learns some form of pack mindset unless taken from the natural setting and "man knows best."


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## Peter Cavallaro

have been watching large numbers of pratical working dogs (non-sport) being raised and worked - the particular pack gets fed (mostly kibble) out of the same at container the same time pushing their way to get some food - dogs are all ages and male/fem together - no fights.

same pack when working stock will snap at an over-enthusiastic young dog that tries to push stock too hard or tries to animate stock into running just so it can work it, or is just out of postion - no handler commands.

same with a pack of hunting dogs i get to see regularly- all super athletic catch dogs that catch/kill large game, all together in large fenced area when not working - no fights. 

all fed from same bowl, often a whole carcass thrown in that they feed off collectively - no fights.

makes me wonder if most of the probs people constantly have to fix/manage is becuase of the unnatural environments the dogs live in ie; crates/kennels.

just thinkin about it


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## Howard Gaines III

Peter Cavallaro said:


> ...
> makes me wonder if most of the probs people constantly have to fix/manage is becuase of the unnatural environments the dogs live in ie; crates/kennels.
> 
> just thinkin about it


 When I get behavior related calls, many times this IS the question I ask first...crated for long periods and w/o any radio or TV? Some folks think you put them in a box "crate" for 8-10 hours and enjoy them for 20 minutes...just to recrate again. WTF!!! Could anyone live a normal life like that? :idea:

Most folks understand dogs are pack animals and the human family is the pack. The the poor TD gets them for a few hours and tries to fix a weeks worth of errors! #-o


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## Peter Cavallaro

yeah the alarming bit is that it has become generally acceptable practice that its *OK* that your dog should spend the best part of its life in a crate. sport and show dog people are equally as bad as each other, i leave PSD and MWD out of this, they are deemed a necessary sacrifice for us. 

i wonder how many sport dogs actually die of old age after a life that remotely resembles a happy dogs life. or as someone here mentioned "they never miss what they have never known" so then give them a shit life from the get-go and they will be happy - people need slapping for sure.

the crate thing gets justified away by invoking some crap about "den instinct" and that the dogs really like it - ho hum.

the other gem is "i should be the centre of my dogs universe and it should learn that all good things come through me" something to do with alpha pack theory whatever and building drive.

pro trainers types promote this crap becuse of all the problems it causes means people will pay same trainers for solutions!!

let yr dog be a dog, u [[delete]], it doesn't make u tougher that yr dog bites someone in a suit.

sorry just ranting a bit while getting my head around where i sit with all this after 2 years of receiving every bit of info / data i could get my hands on. information is neutral, how its processed is whats important.


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## Cassandra Lane

Thanks Don for answering my question.

So for you who are against crating in house, are your dogs permanent outside dogs, or do you leave them free inside? What would your coarse of action be if the dog was destructive or showed signs or separation anxiety-or is that something else the pet population has made up? Not sarcastic, a genuine question


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## Peter Cavallaro

can't speak for all dogs and owners, but i think the answer lies in the fact that these probs u mentioned are to a large extent attributable to the way they are raised and housed on average ie it causes such nervous / idiosyncratic behaviour.


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## leslie cassian

Cassandra Lane said:


> Thanks Don for answering my question.
> 
> So for you who are against crating in house, are your dogs permanent outside dogs, or do you leave them free inside? What would your coarse of action be if the dog was destructive or showed signs or separation anxiety-or is that something else the pet population has made up? Not sarcastic, a genuine question


 My dogs are free in the house. The Mal was not crated in the house aside from a few times during the first couple of weeks after I got him because he stressed so badly at being crated, I decided it wasn't worth it. The DS was crated while I was at work until she was about 7 months old. I don't think I did anything special, but I do make sure they get a good run every morning before I leave.


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## Don Turnipseed

Cassandra Lane said:


> Thanks Don for answering my question.
> 
> So for you who are against crating in house, are your dogs permanent outside dogs, or do you leave them free inside? What would your coarse of action be if the dog was destructive or showed signs or separation anxiety-or is that something else the pet population has made up? Not sarcastic, a genuine question


Cassandra, most of my dogs are yard dogs but, I have a few come in the house. When I start bringing them in as young pups, they are taught how to act. Rule 1 They never go into the kitchen area. Rule 2 They never touch the trach bag. Rule 3 They don't rough house. They can do that outside. Just three rules, no more and we get along fine. I can leave the house all day with food on the counter and food scraps in the trash and they won't touch it. You can see the trash bag by the door in the picture. I took this picture when I was cutting up their choicken for the day. The edge of the carpet begins the dead zone.....the kitchen. I can drop the chicken on the floor and they won't come in the kitchen. It is just teaching them how to behave. I never have dogs with separation anxiety so I can't say anything about that other than it is owner induced. Dogs have never been in a crate except the pup in the background who was shipped in a crate and hasn't seen one since.


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## Sandra King

Peter Cavallaro said:


> yeah the alarming bit is that it has become generally acceptable practice that its *OK* that your dog should spend the best part of its life in a crate. sport and show dog people are equally as bad as each other, i leave PSD and MWD out of this, they are deemed a necessary sacrifice for us.
> 
> i wonder how many sport dogs actually die of old age after a life that remotely resembles a happy dogs life. or as someone here mentioned "they never miss what they have never known" so then give them a shit life from the get-go and they will be happy - people need slapping for sure.
> 
> the crate thing gets justified away by invoking some crap about "den instinct" and that the dogs really like it - ho hum.
> 
> the other gem is "i should be the centre of my dogs universe and it should learn that all good things come through me" something to do with alpha pack theory whatever and building drive.
> 
> pro trainers types promote this crap becuse of all the problems it causes means people will pay same trainers for solutions!!
> 
> let yr dog be a dog, u [[delete]], it doesn't make u tougher that yr dog bites someone in a suit.
> 
> sorry just ranting a bit while getting my head around where i sit with all this after 2 years of receiving every bit of info / data i could get my hands on. information is neutral, how its processed is whats important.


Oh my god, I am so in agreement with you. Crate training is one of my major pet peeves. It's a nice tool but it should just be a tool and as soon as the dog is housebroken he should be allowed outside the crate. 

I can't imagine those poor creatures staying 16+ hours in a crate to keep them "safe"... 

My dogs are barely crated at all. Right now I am crate training my fosters but once they are housebroken they are allowed outside the crate during the night. 

I hate people misusing crates and justifiying it with shady reasons.


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## Peter Cavallaro

don't want to sound too self-righteos here, i have crate trained my pup. 

crate only gets used for safety reasons, not an accomodtaion lifestyle thing.

i think its easy, haven't got time or facilities for a dog - don't get one.


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## Sandra King

Peter Cavallaro said:


> don't want to sound too self-righteos here, i have crate trained my pup.
> 
> crate only gets used for safety reasons, not an accomodtaion lifestyle thing.
> 
> i think its easy, haven't got time or facilities for a dog - don't get one.


That's exactly the way I feel and for the longest time I thought it was a culture clash. Boy the arguments I've had because of crates. People crate their dogs over stupid things and the best excuse I've heard so far is because "They could hang themselves."
I had never even heard of that one before I joined an english speaking forum. 
The second most other one was: "He could eat something and choke to death."
The third one is: "They could fight" (I can understand that one, but i do think that most of the time it's an excuse because they have either no leadership skills or are complete rookies when it comes up to dogs)
The fourth and most lame one is: "To keep them safe... " 

I can't even comprehend most of the reasons. 
The dogs get out in the early morning to pee and poop, then they go straight back into the crate because the owner goes to work. The dog stays for more than eight hours in the crate. Owner comes back home, dog is possibly out for two hours, if the dog is lucky, then dog goes straight back into the crate because "he can't be trusted out during the night". If you add that up, it's more than 16 hours in a crate. 

Honestly, in my opinion, if you have to crate a dog for 16 hours a day, you (in general) shouldn't own a dog. 
In my book, that is animal abuse. If they are kenneled outside, at least they can get up and stretch themselves. They are not confined to a place where the only thing they can do is to either sit, lay, stand, turn around and lay back down.


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## Howard Gaines III

The crate is a time out location...for bad puppies.
The room or a chair is a time out location for bad kids.

Common element...where does teaching and learning come in? If it isn't old enough to know better or has mastered the concept of proper behavior, REDIRECT! =; Learn to be the same today, tomorrow, next week. I see issues being developed b/c folks aren't requiring the same outcome all the time!!!


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## Don Turnipseed

Howard, speak English. Couldn't resist that one Howard.Time out place....redirect....
I don't even use a crate to house break. I remember when the only place that had crates was the airlines. Before that, well, dogs were housebroke without crates. Hard to imagine isn't it? Millions of dogs housebroke without the use of a crate.


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## Dave Colborn

Don Turnipseed said:


> Cassandra, most of my dogs are yard dogs but, I have a few come in the house. When I start bringing them in as young pups, they are taught how to act. Rule 1 They never go into the kitchen area. Rule 2 They never touch the trach bag. Rule 3 They don't rough house. They can do that outside. Just three rules, no more and we get along fine. I can leave the house all day with food on the counter and food scraps in the trash and they won't touch it. You can see the trash bag by the door in the picture. I took this picture when I was cutting up their choicken for the day. The edge of the carpet begins the dead zone.....the kitchen. I can drop the chicken on the floor and they won't come in the kitchen. It is just teaching them how to behave. I never have dogs with separation anxiety so I can't say anything about that other than it is owner induced. Dogs have never been in a crate except the pup in the background who was shipped in a crate and hasn't seen one since.


If you put the trash bag in the kitchen there would only be two rules. However, comma, most people want dogs not to pee, poop and eat their furniture. May want to look into those things as well if you ever provide your services.

As far as using a crate to house train, I do. I also use a chain saw to cut down trees. Because it's easier and faster. I drive a car, and don't ride a horse to work. I drink water from my sink, don't carry it from the river. I could name a number of examples of things that I do that people have invented or proven to save time... Just like crate training. 

Don. Do you use an abacus for math or a calculator? Spear for hog hunting? Carry water from the well?


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## Don Turnipseed

Dave Colborn said:


> If you put the trash bag in the kitchen there would only be two rules. However, comma, most people want dogs not to pee, poop and eat their furniture. May want to look into those things as well if you ever provide your services.
> 
> As far as using a crate to house train, I do. I also use a chain saw to cut down trees. Because it's easier and faster. I drive a car, and don't ride a horse to work. I drink water from my sink, don't carry it from the river. I could name a number of examples of things that I do that people have invented or proven to save time... Just like crate training.
> 
> Don. Do you use an abacus for math or a calculator? Spear for hog hunting? Carry water from the well?


Dave, the dogs don't pee and poop or chew furniture either. Question for you. Why do you say breaking a pup with a crate is easier. It isn't.....but yes, I do use a calculator, have running water etc because those are easier. Now, I didn't just fall off a truck and have a distinct advantage to housebreaking without a crate. My dogs were not born and raised in a house where they have always learned to do their bussiness. My dogs have never peed or crapped in the house prior to when I start bring them in. They go back outside at night until they are bullet proof.....not in a crate. Crate training a dog that has always been in the house is a PITA.


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## Gillian Schuler

I bought a crate for my elder GSD when he was a pup. Was great when I went to help out at a traning centre or visited a seminar. I put the crate in the shade and the pup slept in it

The younger GSD tried to bite through a cable so I crated him at night. The crate is still around and I often hear him crash into it and lie down. It used to have a comfortable mattress in it, but he chewed up one after the other, so now it's just bare plastic but he loves to sleep in his crate, door open.

I am totally against using a crate because of going to work for 8 hours or more. I read one chap asking if it was ok to crate his pup for so long!!

As usual on here though, crate opponents seem to think it is used to "imprison" the dogs for hours on end but more than often crate believers use them without abusing the dogs.

It's the same as prong collars (sharpened denotes users that are abusing dogs) e-collar users are cruel, etc.

There are people, on here too, that use the crate sensibly, don't abuse the dog by wrong use of prong or ec-collars, etc.

Couldn't some of you have a little trust in your fellow forum members????


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## Howard Gaines III

Don Turnipseed said:


> Howard, speak English. Couldn't resist that one Howard.Time out place....redirect....
> .


 Why do I like this forum? Cause I can speaka da english gut! :lol: Thanks Don...


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## Joby Becker

It is easier and more effective for MOST people to use a crate to housebreak a dog..

Any accident that happens is a setback in housebreaking.

The most common problems that I see is that people that do not use a crate, are not watching the puppies 24/7
and assume that accidents in the house are just part of the process.


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## Howard Gaines III

Dave Colborn said:


> If you put the trash bag in the kitchen there would only be two rules. However, comma, most people want dogs not to pee, poop and eat their furniture. May want to look into those things as well if you ever provide your services.
> 
> As far as using a crate to house train, I do. I also use a chain saw to cut down trees. Because it's easier and faster. I drive a car, and don't ride a horse to work. I drink water from my sink, don't carry it from the river. I could name a number of examples of things that I do that people have invented or proven to save time... Just like crate training.
> 
> Don. Do you use an abacus for math or a calculator? Spear for hog hunting? Carry water from the well?


 Yeah Dave...RIGHT! You damn Southern boys from the mountain state...NC can't even walk on flat land! Ya'll list to the left or right depending upon which side of the mountain the sun came up that day.=D>

Now on a more true note, everything changes for the better and I'd bet nobody sits in front of a tube style black & white TV. In any case, change which is good should be used not b/c it's the flavor of the month. 

Scotland gurl...we can translate for a slight fee, no EUsl!!!!!!!!


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## Dave Colborn

Don Turnipseed said:


> Why do you say breaking a pup with a crate is easier. It isn't.....but yes, I do use a calculator, have running water etc because those are easier.


Don. You quit listening already by your own statement. Your arms are crossed, you are not reading. You asked a question of me, "Why is it easier to crate train?" and immediately gave yourself your own answer "It isn't."


You (not everyone else) really shouldn't use the crate at all. Your dog will only want bribery and treats from the moment it goes in there with the specific intent of housebreaking. Put the crate in the back of your truck and it is a tool to go hunting. Were I you, I'd never have one in the house. Me, I'll keep doing it.


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## Don Turnipseed

Dave Colborn said:


> Don. You quit listening already by your own statement. Your arms are crossed, you are not reading. You asked a question of me, "Why is it easier to crate train?" and immediately gave yourself your own answer "It isn't."
> 
> 
> You (not everyone else) really shouldn't use the crate at all. Your dog will only want bribery and treats from the moment it goes in there with the specific intent of housebreaking. Put the crate in the back of your truck and it is a tool to go hunting. Were I you, I'd never have one in the house. Me, I'll keep doing it.


Dave, I explained why it is easier for me. Did you miss the part about the way the dogs are raised? Going hunting is the only time I use a crate and that is for maybe a few miles. The males have to be kept separated so the crates do that. After a pup has been born and raised in the house and conditioned to doing their business in the house, yes, a crate may be the best route to go.


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## Dave Colborn

Don Turnipseed said:


> Dave, I explained why it is easier for me. Did you miss the part about the way the dogs are raised? Going hunting is the only time I use a crate and that is for maybe a few miles. The males have to be kept separated so the crates do that. After a pup has been born and raised in the house and conditioned to doing their business in the house, yes, a crate may be the best route to go.



Don. Please direct me to where you explained why* "it is easier not to use a crate to teach a dog not to defecate or urinate on the floor in your house*." I couldn't find it in this thread or any other.

Also if you would verify that the above underlined bold statement is actually what you intend to be discussing. You are arguing against a crate in housebreaking. I am arguing for a crate for house training.


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## Don Turnipseed

Don Turnipseed said:


> Dave, the dogs don't pee and poop or chew furniture either. Question for you. Why do you say breaking a pup with a crate is easier. It isn't.....but yes, I do use a calculator, have running water etc because those are easier.[bold] Now, I didn't just fall off a truck and have a distinct advantage to housebreaking without a crate. My dogs were not born and raised in a house where they have always learned to do their bussiness. My dogs have never peed or crapped in the house prior to when I start bring them in. They go back outside at night until they are bullet proof.....not in a crate.[/bol]} Crate training a dog that has always been in the house is a PITA.


I kind of thought that covered it Dave. #-o House teaching is just as easy as house breaking the Dave. Actually it is done at the same time and is quite easy....with a pup that has never been in the house. So, I think for the vast majority of people, a crate is the best option because most pups have been in the house these days. I could tell you how to do it but your going to need a PayPal account. LOL I am not arguing for or against the use of crates for house breaking or house training. The "new" method works well for todays dogs and people....but it is a royal PITA. I am easy Dave, I don't really care how people do it, they get to do it and it is their dog. :wink:


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## Dave Colborn

Howard Gaines III said:


> Yeah Dave...RIGHT! You damn Southern boys from the mountain state...NC can't even walk on flat land! Ya'll list to the left or right depending upon which side of the mountain the sun came up that day.=D>
> 
> Now on a more true note, everything changes for the better and I'd bet nobody sits in front of a tube style black & white TV. In any case, change which is good should be used not b/c it's the flavor of the month.
> 
> Scotland gurl...we can translate for a slight fee, no EUsl!!!!!!!!


Howard. I am from Kansas. Wait, let me get my Gibberish to English dictionary to see what you just said?? LOL.

I agree on the flavor of the month, but using what works best in any given situation is the way to go. Taking the dog, situation, owners, etc into account. That goes for most things training, I think. Whatever is stupid that works best, isn't stupid.


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## rick smith

for me there must be some good reasons for crating, but i've found more reasons why they cause problems rather than solve them. as far as housetraining; thot this forum didn't discuss it 

but surprise the X-pen hasn't been discussed in this thread cause i use them for a lot of things for both pups and adults, all sizes and breeds. maybe that would classify as a modern tool; maybe not 

i definitely agree about all the weird logic used to promote crating tho. for me "time outs" are on the top of that trash heap and i even hear SchH trainers that make the big bucks shovel that at new students over here, except in Japanese it is translated more as "soaking in a bathtub for awhile" .....believing a dog will "think about" what they (the dog of course) just screwed up by soaking in a crate is about as "Anthro" as it gets ... u can of course communicate to a dog thru avoidance, but nobody can convince me they are thinking when they are put in crate 

a short lead inside does wonders for many house issues tho, and yes that takes 1on1 time, which i always remind owners they NEED or they should give up yesterday

overall i think the interest in crating is a spin off of the want it now generation for part time dog owners, regardless of what they want to do with the dog when it's uncrated, and usually i see owners who promote crating as people who want to isolate a dog from a problem rather than deal with it


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## Brian Anderson

Dog trainers god love em ... will argue about ANYTHING lol......


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## Dave Colborn

Don Turnipseed said:


> I kind of thought that covered it Dave. #-o
> 
> I could tell you how to do it but your going to need a PayPal account.
> 
> I don't really care how people do it, they get to do it and it is their dog. :wink:


We (you) seem to have a commo problem here. 

You had it covered.* Indicating you told me in a previous post.*

I can pay for the info.* Indicating you didn't tell me, but you will for a dollar amount.*

You don't care. *You seemed to care by at least posting initially, but not at this point.*

Good lord you should run for office, you're a shoe in!! You found three sides to one fence and straddled all of them in one post. LOL.


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## Dave Colborn

Brian Anderson said:


> Dog trainers god love em ... will argue about ANYTHING lol......



That's crap. I won't argue about anything with you, not even whether trainers argue about anything or not. I don't think they will. Never. No way. All trainers agree. 

Actually Brian, I agree with you wholeheartedly. A good solution would be if people could just see that I am right in all that I say and do we'd argue less....Just ask me, I'll tell you!!

This of course goes with the disclaimer that I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken...

Disclaimer: All of the above was meant in jest. I say this to keep panties out of tight knotted up configurations...


And I to go back to the OP. I think Mom and siblings have a big impact on how a dog reacts to humans. Pull them too early and you may get good or bad behaviors from it. IE good would be a dog never getting corrected by mom for biting behavior. Learns to bite hard and full every time. Mom corrects for it, it could impact the bitework make a single purpose dog. On the other hand if she doesn't, the dog may bite the handler. Or everyone.


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## Don Turnipseed

Don Turnipseed said:


> Howard, speak English. Couldn't resist that one Howard.Time out place....redirect....
> *I don't even use a crate to house break. I remember when the only place that had crates was the airlines. Before that, well, dogs were housebroke without crates. Hard to imagine isn't it? Millions of dogs housebroke without the use of a crate.*


I should be a politition Dave....you fast talker you. Above you will see my original statement on the subject of housebreaking. And from that simple post, *You* have taken the ball and run with it. T where, I am not sure anyone knows, but, the ball has been in your court ever since. You, my friend, should run for office. Your getting even slipperier than before. :grin:


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## Brian Anderson

Damn that was actually pretty cool Dave ... how did you know my vision was going to hell? LMAO

Im puttin a Turnipseed for office sign up after I finish typing this HAHAHA


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## Dave Colborn

Don Turnipseed said:


> I should be a politition Dave....you fast talker you. Above you will see my original statement on the subject of housebreaking. And from that simple post, *You* have taken the ball and run with it. T where, I am not sure anyone knows, but, the ball has been in your court ever since. You, my friend, should run for office. Your getting even slipperier than before. :grin:


You are the man Don. I just can't define what "the man" is, any better than you have defined how you train your pup not to pee or poop in the house with your three rules (that have nothing to do with poops or pees) that I shortened to two rules in one post by moving the garbage to the kitchen. Man am I good. You have adopted Koehler's methods after years of training, as of may of last year, and now my two rule house training. As the young kids also say these days...Hells yeah. You raised me to a new level (in my mind). When you change your three to two rules with clients, I want royalties off of all your pay pal sales....


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## Don Turnipseed

Dave, Dave, Dave, the three rules have nothing to do with peeing and pooping and house breaking. Those are house rules and I never explained how I do them either.. I don't see a point to explaining how I start them off because I don't think it will work with dogs born and raised in the house and I don't want to bore anyone.....more so than I do anyway.


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## Dave Colborn

Don Turnipseed said:


> Dave, Dave, Dave, the three rules have nothing to do with peeing and pooping and house breaking. Those are house rules and I never explained how I do them either.. I don't see a point to explaining how I start them off because I don't think it will work with dogs born and raised in the house and I don't want to bore anyone.....more so than I do anyway.


So how many dogs have you crate trained? And I did invent the question mark.. FYI


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Dave Colborn said:


> So how many dogs have you crate trained? And I did invent the question mark.. FYI


Dave, there was a long interval, when I was younger and was sowing wild oats, where I had no dogs. When I got back into them, I did the flavor of the month, like everyone else and crate trained quite a few. My dogs were also raised in the house as per the current flavor. When I moved them outside is when it became obvious that there were a lot of differences in the dogs. Crate training was over for me as it was a PITA and I didn't need to fool with it anymore. So the answer is quite a few.


----------



## Dave Colborn

Don Turnipseed said:


> Dave, there was a long interval, when I was younger and was sowing wild oats, where I had no dogs. When I got back into them, I did the flavor of the month, like everyone else and crate trained quite a few. My dogs were also raised in the house as per the current flavor. When I moved them outside is when it became obvious that there were a lot of differences in the dogs. Crate training was over for me as it was a PITA and I didn't need to fool with it anymore. So the answer is quite a few.


Gotcha.

So what made it obvious that there were a lot of differences in the dogs? Was it when they live outside until six months, their bladders are bigger and therefore the dog is easier to train? Less trips outside in the first few months? Can you define the PITA? If you were ineffective as a crate trainer, was it because you weren't any good at it or it was really an undefinable PITA? If my dog pees in the house, due to being full, it's my fault, right? Crate or no crate, he can't open the door to the crate or the house. So were you just improperly crate training and that is why it was a PITA? Just trying to see where you are with this one.

If your ever vacillating position is now simply the argument that dog outside, no pee in house, then not a good argument. If you aren't going to describe anything that you do, please let me know, and I'll stop asking. You obviously have some "interesting" techniques or are just pulling my leg. which is it?


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Dave, obviously you want to hear something Like crate training is a piece of cake. It is a PITA. I never said I wasn't successful at crate traing. I said I crate trained quite a few. If I crate traine them, it was obviously successfully done. I have done it with and without crate and as I said, crate training is a PITA.....but that is what you don't like hearing. Right? How many dogs have you "successfully" house broke and trained without a crate?

First, you have a crate cluttering up the place, second, every time you are not watching them or have to do something, you have to put them back in the crate. Then when your back on track, you have to get them back out and take them outside. Next, the only thing you are accomplishing is breaking them from peeing or crapping in the house. It is a PITA, time consuming and you are not getting much bang for your buck. But, as I said, you have no choice with dogs born and raised in the house.

So, what do you want? Do you want me to tell you how I do it? They not only learn to not crap in the house but learn how to chill and have some manners at the same time. I have to go load the truck right now for a dump run tomorrow. If you want to know how I do it let me know. How many dogs have you fully trained in all aspects of living in the house without ever being put in a crate?


----------



## Dave Colborn

Don Turnipseed said:


> Dave, obviously you want to hear something Like crate training is a piece of cake. It is a PITA. I never said I wasn't successful at crate traing. I said I crate trained quite a few. If I crate traine them, it was obviously successfully done. I have done it with and without crate and as I said, crate training is a PITA.....but that is what you don't like hearing. Right? How many dogs have you "successfully" house broke and trained without a crate?
> 
> First, you have a crate cluttering up the place, second, every time you are not watching them or have to do something, you have to put them back in the crate. Then when your back on track, you have to get them back out and take them outside. Next, the only thing you are accomplishing is breaking them from peeing or crapping in the house. It is a PITA, time consuming and you are not getting much bang for your buck. But, as I said, you have no choice with dogs born and raised in the house.
> 
> So, what do you want? Do you want me to tell you how I do it? They not only learn to not crap in the house but learn how to chill and have some manners at the same time. I have to go load the truck right now for a dump run tomorrow. If you want to know how I do it let me know. How many dogs have you fully trained in all aspects of living in the house without ever being put in a crate?


I have trained a couple without a crate and finished a couple with a crate and started several for other people that were successful in a crate. 

I want to hear why a crate is a pain in the ass for you. the why. I want to hear how you get the dog to do all that stuff without a crate, because yes, that is valuable information.


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Dave Colborn said:


> I have trained a couple without a crate and finished a couple with a crate and started several for other people that were successful in a crate.
> 
> I want to hear why a crate is a pain in the ass for you. the why. I want to hear how you get the dog to do all that stuff without a crate, because yes, that is valuable information.


Well, let's give it a shot. You have to remember, the pups are about four months old and raised by parents and aunts. All strict disciplinarians. The first thing I notice is when the older dogs are disciplining, they make a horrendous noise and it sounds like they are going to kill the pups. The loud volume makes the pup think it is going to get killed and he squeals. 

Ok. pup is say 4 months old, never been in the house, never pee'd in the house. I let them in and give them a few minutes to Check things out and then they go on the recliner or a dog bed on the landing.....and thy are not allowed to roam at all initially. Takes me about 20 minute of sittingmthere and correcting them to get the point across that they have to stay on that spot. Correction is "loud" verbal correction like mom and dad. Then they get praise go back out. Next day is pretty much the same but after a few days when they come in they just go and get in there spot. When they go to their spot, I go to the computer and ignore them for longer periods. Yes, they try to sneak down at first, but, at first I am right around the corner to catch them for a few minutes. Once they settle in I stay on the computer. 

Next after they have that down, I let them come in the computer room with me and lay there. Next, I let them start following me around the house. This is where they lean about the dead zone going into the kitchen and the trash. I just gradually lengthen the times they are in. If they are wound up and restless about staying in their place one day, I just open the door and tell them to get out. If I have to cook something, they either lay at the edge of the kitchen where I can see them, or Imopen the door and tell them to get out. They learn the whole accepted routine with very little inconvenience to me. You have to remember. Normally, with most dogs today, you are actaully breaking the dog from crapping and peeing in the house because he has always done it. You are breaking the dog from every bad habit is has learned. I am not. They have never been allowed to act crazy in the house, never been allowed to pee in the house, go in the kitchen or get in the trash. It is the honor system. The better they are, the more freedom they have, until, in a short time they can go anywhere with no supervision.


----------



## Dave Colborn

Don Turnipseed said:


> Well, let's give it a shot. You have to remember, the pups are about four months old and raised by parents and aunts. All strict disciplinarians. The first thing I notice is when the older dogs are disciplining, they make a horrendous noise and it sounds like they are going to kill the pups. The loud volume makes the pup think it is going to get killed and he squeals.
> 
> Ok. pup is say 4 months old, never been in the house, never pee'd in the house. I let them in and give them a few minutes to Check things out and then they go on the recliner or a dog bed on the landing.....and thy are not allowed to roam at all initially. Takes me about 20 minute of sittingmthere and correcting them to get the point across that they have to stay on that spot. Correction is "loud" verbal correction like mom and dad. Then they get praise go back out. Next day is pretty much the same but after a few days when they come in they just go and get in there spot. When they go to their spot, I go to the computer and ignore them for longer periods. Yes, they try to sneak down at first, but, at first I am right around the corner to catch them for a few minutes. Once they settle in I stay on the computer.
> 
> Next after they have that down, I let them come in the computer room with me and lay there. Next, I let them start following me around the house. This is where they lean about the dead zone going into the kitchen and the trash. I just gradually lengthen the times they are in. If they are wound up and restless about staying in their place one day, I just open the door and tell them to get out. If I have to cook something, they either lay at the edge of the kitchen where I can see them, or Imopen the door and tell them to get out. They learn the whole accepted routine with very little inconvenience to me. You have to remember. Normally, with most dogs today, you are actaully breaking the dog from crapping and peeing in the house because he has always done it. You are breaking the dog from every bad habit is has learned. I am not. They have never been allowed to act crazy in the house, never been allowed to pee in the house, go in the kitchen or get in the trash. It is the honor system. The better they are, the more freedom they have, until, in a short time they can go anywhere with no supervision.



OK. Got it.


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Dave Colborn said:


> OK. Got it.[/QUOT]
> 
> That's it??? After "dogging" me for the last two pages. ](*,)


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## Bob Scott

Don said
" You are breaking the dog from every bad habit is has learned. I am not. They have never been allowed to act crazy in the house, never been allowed to pee in the house, go in the kitchen or get in the trash. It is the honor system. The better they are, the more freedom they have, until, in a short time they can go anywhere with no supervision".


Consistency! Go figure!
Lack of it is the biggest reason puppies wind up at the pound with claims of "Can't teach this puppy a thing". "Impossible to house break". "Can't stay out of the trash". "Wont stop biting the kids". "Chews everything in sight". Yadda, yadda, yadda!
WHERE is the owner while the pup is doing all this crap?????
DON'T leave them unattended from the get go! It ain't rocket science! 
If you don't have the time to watch them them put them outside......or in a crate!


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## Sandra King

I have actually found that dogs, that lived in an outdoor kennel for most of their life, are the easiest dogs to housebreak. All they need is a routine and to be taken out regularly. If trained, worked and held properly, the kennel pretty much, has the same effect as a crate.


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## Bob Scott

Sandra King said:


> I have actually found that dogs, that lived in an outdoor kennel for most of their life, are the easiest dogs to housebreak. All they need is a routine and to be taken out regularly. If trained, worked and held properly, the kennel pretty much, has the same effect as a crate.



It can be...sometimes.
One of my (kenneled) GSDs wont take a crap in the run to save his life and always uses the same spot when he's let out.
The other is a stomper. Moves all around the yard while he's crapping and stomps all over it while doing so.
I have to say both were easy to house train (ALL house manners) when they were pups. 
They were both started in the house to learn basic manners and moved outside at about 6-7 months old.


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## Don Turnipseed

I hate kenneling a dog almost as much as crating them. :grin:


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## Bob Scott

Actually my two are loose in the yard 90% of the time. the kennel is now basically for when the g- kids come over. One doesn't particularly care for dogs and Trooper seems to delight in trying to get her to play. 
He's a big clown and a bowling for babies kinda dog. :lol:


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## Sandra King

Don't let the pet people know. They'd call you irresponsible... they could hang themselves over the fence, dig through or get stolen out da yard, ya know... [-X LOL

Same here, 90% of the day, the door is open to the yard and if anyone is stupid enough to climb the privacy fence, it's his own damn fault.


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## Bob Scott

Sandra King said:


> Don't let the pet people know. They'd call you irresponsible... they could hang themselves over the fence, dig through or get stolen out da yard, ya know... [-X LOL
> 
> Same here, 90% of the day, the door is open to the yard and if anyone is stupid enough to climb the privacy fence, it's his own damn fault.


6-8ft privacy fence around the whole yard!
One of my neighbors has already told me it's to hot (100 for the past week) for them to be outside. Cealing fan under the patio cover and a box fan three feet in front of where they lay down. Fresh water changed twice a day. They haven't been in the house more then 2-3 times in their lifetime since they were 7-8 months old.
Don't want to spoil them. :twisted:


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## maggie fraser

I have raised seven pups in the house (one at a time), and I have never owned a crate or crated a dog except occasionally whilst travelling. All were toilet trained (had the idea) in under a week, the gsd pups were generally quicker than the jrts, all from around eight weeks old.

I always ensure I will have the time to take when acquiring a pup to constantly supervise and toilet train. Not only is it not a pain in the ass, it can actually be quite fun. I will pop a pup out onto the grass every couple of hours, immediately after eating and an hour or so later, and of course prior to going to bed and immediately on waking (that may mean I have to wake sharp initially).

When we do get caught out at this very early stage, it's an exciting run to the back door, there's no hollering or drama or pups getting screamed NO at them. Older dogs I've taken in there hasn't been a problem due to my having a very good and consistent routine already in place.

It's worth it, done and dusted in a couple of weeks and lasts a lifetime, no duress, no noise of a girning, squealy pup being locked up and frustrated in a cage,.....I call it interaction :-D. It can also be very good for the human, keeps you sharp and trim and you don't have to worry about getting fat or lazy, particularly if you keep in mode with the initial jolt, helps with fitness .

Crates are much the same guise as tv dinners, instant fix but hey....., absolutely great for promoting the training market and of course training tools, in addition to increasing the dog population 'cos you can have as many dogs as you like when you confine them to a cage....hell you don't even need any room or time to accomodate them with a cage, don't even have to exercise them.

I'm not a fan .

If my situation was that it did not allow a fairly good regular routine, such if being away from home all day without regular arrangement at lunch times for example, and exercising every single morning, I would not consider a dog for pleasure. Goes against the grain with me.

Nowt to do with natural correction really, but hey ho..


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## Sandra King

Maggie, as much as I despise crates, as much I love them too. 
Right now I am having five dogs and when I clean up the house, those crates are a god sent. 

One of my fosters can be a little crazy. He's a husky/shepherd mix and except for the black and tan color, there is nothing shepherdish about him. He's all husky... and without the crate, I would have already strangled that dog. :-#


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## Dave Colborn

Don Turnipseed said:


> Dave Colborn said:
> 
> 
> 
> OK. Got it.[/QUOT]
> 
> That's it??? After "dogging" me for the last two pages. ](*,)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I could have said:
> 
> *Ok. Got it. You yell at your dogs and monitor them...
> 
> 
> *Sorry you feel dogged. I'll try and tone my typed word down a notch.
Click to expand...


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## Dave Colborn

maggie fraser said:


> I have raised seven pups in the house (one at a time), and I have never owned a crate or crated a dog except occasionally whilst travelling. All were toilet trained (had the idea) in under a week, the gsd pups were generally quicker than the jrts, all from around eight weeks old.
> 
> I always ensure I will have the time to take when acquiring a pup to constantly supervise and toilet train. Not only is it not a pain in the ass, it can actually be quite fun. I will pop a pup out onto the grass every couple of hours, immediately after eating and an hour or so later, and of course prior to going to bed and immediately on waking (that may mean I have to wake sharp initially).
> 
> When we do get caught out at this very early stage, it's an exciting run to the back door, there's no hollering or drama or pups getting screamed NO at them. Older dogs I've taken in there hasn't been a problem due to my having a very good and consistent routine already in place.
> 
> It's worth it, done and dusted in a couple of weeks and lasts a lifetime, no duress, no noise of a girning, squealy pup being locked up and frustrated in a cage,.....I call it interaction :-D. It can also be very good for the human, keeps you sharp and trim and you don't have to worry about getting fat or lazy, particularly if you keep in mode with the initial jolt, helps with fitness .
> 
> Crates are much the same guise as tv dinners, instant fix but hey....., absolutely great for promoting the training market and of course training tools, in addition to increasing the dog population 'cos you can have as many dogs as you like when you confine them to a cage....hell you don't even need any room or time to accomodate them with a cage, don't even have to exercise them.
> 
> I'm not a fan .
> 
> If my situation was that it did not allow a fairly good regular routine, such if being away from home all day without regular arrangement at lunch times for example, and exercising every single morning, I would not consider a dog for pleasure. Goes against the grain with me.
> 
> Nowt to do with natural correction really, but hey ho..


What do you do with your young puppies when you leave the house?

Have you ever eaten a TV dinner?


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## maggie fraser

Dave Colborn said:


> What do you do with your young puppies when you leave the house?
> 
> Have you ever eaten a TV dinner?


It's been a while since I have only had one dog in the house, so they have generally had company in the main. With all pups though from young, I leave them a spell on their own from the get go, starting off from about an hour or so, I'll confine them to one room, everything is picked up off the floor bar their bed and a couple of toys, they generally cry...but I am gone. Within the first couple of weeks, they've stopped crying and settled, and are generally asleep on my return because they have learned that we all come back. They learn very quickly when you have seasoned older dogs about the place about how to behave in the house, when I am gone all dogs have free run.

If I was starting a young pup off without having any other dog around and was likely to be gone for longish spells, I would favour a kennel and run scenario until he was finished his chewing/teething stage. A kennel and run is always very handy though for when you are gone the entire day.

And yes I have eaten a tv dinner, it was called a dinner box with nice pictures on the wrapping, it smelled good when I opened it up once you got past that whiff of monosodium glutomate, didn't taste _that _bad either. I think I drank some coke with it.....made me feel all American :grin:.


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## Joby Becker

maggie fraser said:


> It's been a while since I have only had one dog in the house, so they have generally had company in the main. With all pups though from young, I leave them a spell on their own from the get go, starting off from about an hour or so, I'll confine them to one room, everything is picked up off the floor bar their bed and a couple of toys, they generally cry...but I am gone. Within the first couple of weeks, they've stopped crying and settled, and are generally asleep on my return because they have learned that we all come back. They learn very quickly when you have seasoned older dogs about the place about how to behave in the house, when I am gone all dogs have free run.
> 
> If I was starting a young pup off without having any other dog around and was likely to be gone for longish spells, I would favour a kennel and run scenario until he was finished his chewing/teething stage. A kennel and run is always very handy though for when you are gone the entire day.
> 
> And yes I have eaten a tv dinner, it was called a dinner box with nice pictures on the wrapping, it smelled good when I opened it up once you got past that whiff of monosodium glutomate, didn't taste _that _bad either. I think I drank some coke with it.....made me feel all American :grin:.


how does the housebreaking go, just curious? Like if you have to go to work? or are gone for longer periods of time?

another tangent...

Some people use those pee-pads, and swear by them...I just never understood the concept of those, why train a dog to pee in the house??? LOL.


----------



## maggie fraser

Joby Becker said:


> how does the housebreaking go, just curious? Like if you have to go to work? or are gone for longer periods of time?
> 
> .


Not sure exactly what you mean Joby by housebreaking ? Are you referring to destructive and frustrated behaviour in the house ? The dogs are thoroughly exercised, toiletted and fed prior to being left, they aren't cooped up so are able to choose their space and chill out. I am largely referring here to my experience of when I kept two gsds and two jrts.

If I could not get back to them at lunchtime for say I would make arrangement for someone(family/friend who knew the dogs) to call in. If that wasn't a goer and I knew I was going to be gone for a long spell, I just left the back door of the house wide open so they could go in and out to the garden, I reckoned no-one was going in there with the four on the prowl. That was because I never got the kennel/run scenario sorted out.

The times I did leave them for a good spell and couldn't get back, there were never any problems other than everyone needing to get to the toilet.


----------



## Joby Becker

maggie fraser said:


> Not sure exactly what you mean Joby by housebreaking ? Are you referring to destructive and frustrated behaviour in the house ? The dogs are thoroughly exercised, toiletted and fed prior to being left, they aren't cooped up so are able to choose their space and chill out. I am largely referring here to my experience of when I kept two gsds and two jrts.
> 
> If I could not get back to them at lunchtime for say I would make arrangement for someone(family/friend who knew the dogs) to call in. If that wasn't a goer and I knew I was going to be gone for a long spell, I just left the back door of the house wide open so they could go in and out to the garden, I reckoned no-one was going in there with the four on the prowl. That was because I never got the kennel/run scenario sorted out.
> 
> The times I did leave them for a good spell and couldn't get back, there were never any problems other than everyone needing to get to the toilet.


I was referring to toilet...it was answered, either someone else taking care of it, or leaving the door open...thank you.


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## maggie fraser

Joby Becker said:


> I was referring to toilet...it was answered, either someone else taking care of it, or leaving the door open...thank you.


If I had understood that as the question, that is not the answer I would have given I don't think. The housebreaking goes as planned, they do not toilet in the house, they toilet outside. Over the years I've been caught out from time to time as you are....the dogs can go twelve hours, however I ran things like that for four dogs, as not everyone needs at the same time all of the time. Plus, it helps prevent all sorts of urinary probs etc. I reckon as they don't have to hold it for too long.


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## Peter Cavallaro

Joby Becker said:


> *It is easier and more effective for MOST people to use a*
> 
> 
> it is easier and more effective to do a lot of things especially when you lack the right "having a clue-ness";
> 
> thats why there is a booming industry for all sorts of training crutches and techno-fix its in a range of activities, dogs training is just one of them


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## Peter Cavallaro

but surprise the X-pen 


whats an "X-pen", not on google??? i got told about these by LB but noone told what the were, must have thought it was too obvious to warrant an answer.


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## Peter Cavallaro

i really appreciatte this thread; if i can make the crate crowd squirm for even just a moment i feel i have actually done something useful.

one day i hope to make same people actually *think* for just a moment too.

then we can all move onto e-collars, and list all the "justifications" why they are *easier and more effective* training too.


----------



## Dave Colborn

Peter Cavallaro said:


> i really appreciatte this thread; if i can make the crate crowd squirm for even just a moment i feel i have actually done something useful.
> 
> one day i hope to make same people actually *think* for just a moment too.
> 
> then we can all move onto e-collars, and list all the "justifications" why they are *easier and more effective* training too.



Pete, use your words buddy. I don't suppose I am the only one that doesn't get what you mean here. Or your last two posts in this thread. Also, it has nothing to do with the OP, which is why I stopped answering.


----------



## Cassandra Lane

Peter Cavallaro said:


> but surprise the X-pen
> 
> 
> whats an "X-pen", not on google??? i got told about these by LB but noone told what the were, must have thought it was too obvious to warrant an answer.


http://www.amazon.com/Iris-CI-908-Indoor-Outdoor-Plastic/dp/B000FS4OYA

X-pen is short for exercise pen, because it is much roomier than a crate.


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## Gillian Schuler

A German Canine Behaviourist, Esther Schalke, brought her rabibits with her on her week's stay at the dog centre and kept them in one of these.

Our 8-week old GSD scrambled over a 1,20 metre high pen we had in the garden.

Give me a crate any day.

I wonder why it is thought that, especially a piup, needs room when he's left alone. Most of them seem to be happier in a small, dark, cosy crate.

I can't even see the benefit of leaving them in a room that has been emptied of all "chewable items". I hardly think they do "workouts" when left alone. They just rest until someone comes back again. Dogs have no idea of time.


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## Sandra King

Gillian, crate training is a good thing as long as it's used as a tool. What many have problems with is the abusive and excessive crating. I crated my puppies too when I left the house, however after four months they could be trusted outside. The worst that happened was that they chewed up toilett paper. 

The important thing, when leaving a puppy alone is to have stuff around that they can chew but not destroy, or stuff like bully sticks, bones, stuffed kongs etc. to keep them busy and happy. 

The way I build it up is that I left Indra in the house, with something she enjoyed (outside the crate) and took one of the other dogs outside to train for five to ten minutes. 

It's really not that hard to houseproof a puppy in a short period of time IF you have the time to do it and I have the time to do it. Indra could be left alone, outside the crate when she was not even half a year old and I did not come back to a shredded appartment.


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## Gillian Schuler

This crate thing gets me!! 

How many people on here do you think are abusing the pup / dog by keeping it in a crate for hours on end??

Those outside this forum we can't influence so what's the point of even mentioning the abuse.

As for:

Quote The important thing, when leaving a puppy alone is to have stuff around that they can chew but not destroy, or stuff like bully sticks, bones, stuffed kongs etc. to keep them busy and happy. 
Unquote

I can't honestly believe that pups (or dogs for that matter) play around with stuff until you get back.

They drowse, unaware of the time, until you return, I would think, even the liveliest pup or dog. I think the only thing to have kept my younger dog playing, would have been an indoor swimming pool.

My niece once told me she left toys and some sort of food hidden in the house so that the dog was occupied until she came home. I never told her but I guess the dog found everything before she had reversed her car out of the drive and lay down to wait until she came home again.


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## Brian Anderson

Okay I see the stupid crate debate is still in full swing. ](*,)


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## Gillian Schuler

It wouldn't be a debate if the crate opponents would lighten up](*,)


----------



## Sara Waters

I have 6 dogs, 3 I leave loose at night and the 3 youngest that I crate. At night I an reading and at my computer and guess where the 3 youngsters are? In their crates asleep with the crate doors open. The dog door is open and they are in the house but they seem to choose their crates. I zip them in at night and they stay their happily till morning when we go for a walk. They are soft crates so if they chose they could chew their way out but they dont seem to.

Not sure about the resting when I am gone LOL. My youngsters will rip anything to shreds that is shreddable when I leave them in their large enclosure when I am gone for a long day. They dig craters and do all sorts of naughty destructive things if given the opportunity and these are dogs that get plenty of work and training. I think my kelpie is the ring leader, the mayhem started after she arrived LOL.

The older dogs 2 yo plus are happy to sleep and chill out till I get back and I can completely trust them in the house if I need to leave them there.


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## Gillian Schuler

Quote Not sure about the resting LOL. My youngsters will rip anything to shreds that is shreddable when I leave them in their large enclosure when I am gone for a long day. They dig craters and do all sorts of naughty destructive things if given the opportunity and these are dogs that get plenty of work and training. 
Unquote


That's why I use a crate but then I never leave a pup for a long day. I've even taken them to work or to meetings. By the time they got through the train ride to Zürich and walked down the Bahnhofstrasse to my office, they were relatively quiet, and a chewy bone kept them occupied whilst I worked.


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## Sandra King

> They drowse, unaware of the time, until you return, I would think, even the liveliest pup or dog. I think the only thing to have kept my younger dog playing, would have been an indoor swimming pool.


Then why do you have to crate them, if the only thing they do is to drowse, unaware of time? 



As for the abuse, it's not directed on any of the forum members on here. It's directed towards people that even lock their adult dogs away once they go to work and over night and if you add that up it's more than 16 hours a day and that counts as abuse, in my book. It's my opinion, nobody has to like it.


----------



## Jim Nash

Sounds like the problem is stupid people not the crate . That is unless crate make people act stupid . I'm sure there's some study out there that says so .


----------



## Sara Waters

Gillian Schuler said:


> That's why I use a crate but then I never leave a pup for a long day. I've even taken them to work or to meetings. By the time they got through the train ride to Zürich and walked down the Bahnhofstrasse to my office, they were relatively quiet, and a chewy bone kept them occupied whilst I worked.


Not quite something I could do. If I have to go to the city on business for the day it is a 6 hour round trip drive on top of what I go there for.

Dogs have to deal with it and I have to deal with any destruction. They have a nice secure roomy enclosure. I use my crates mainly for trials or things like recovery from surgery


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Well, this "nit-picking" is getting on my nerves.

I crate my dogs when I'm not able to supervise them, be it because I'm on the telephone, vacuuming, whatever.

They are never in the crate for hours on end. Then as they are now adult dogs, they are together in the house and each can retreat to his corner.

Letting a dog rip up the furniture instead of crating it is in my mind crazy.

We only have one crate and the younger dog sleeps in it with the door open at night for an odd hour or two.

I have nothing against people who think the dog is better off in a room on its own where it cannot get into trouble but this is just a roomy crate in my mind.

Come on, this thread is going nowhere.

Live and let live!!


----------



## Howard Gaines III

Geeze Dave the shy type with that BIG PRINT.


----------



## Dave Colborn

My dog is crated. I am at dinner. He's been in there for a while. He is not going to snuggle me tonight for putting him in doggie jail. Puppy prison. Poor dog.


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

Cassandra Lane said:


> http://www.amazon.com/Iris-CI-908-Indoor-Outdoor-Plastic/dp/B000FS4OYA
> 
> X-pen is short for exercise pen, because it is much roomier than a crate.


 

a huge crate - thanks for the response


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## Peter Cavallaro

*Dogs have no idea of time*.[/QUOTE]


Gillian yr the expert but that statement is a complete crock of sh!t


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

Gillian Schuler said:


> This crate thing gets me!!
> 
> *How many people on here do you think are abusing the pup / dog by keeping it in a crate for hours on end??*
> 
> dunno set up a poll - i belive its blatant abuse


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

Gillian Schuler said:


> "*It wouldn't be a debate if* " ...people just agreed with you


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

Dave Colborn said:


> Pete, use your words buddy. I don't suppose I am the only one that doesn't get what you mean here. Or your last two posts in this thread. Also, it has nothing to do with the OP, which is why I stopped answering.


 
Dave aren't from Ark. originally, u had trouble getting Don T - he is the plainest speaker here - u didn't get my 2 posts, i see a pattern, but Ark, hmmm isn't that where they teach kids;

that the earth (and universe) is 4000 years old

the grand canyon was made in one big flood 

the indellible fossil record is the devils trickery
.
.
.
.
don't they sack school teachers for sayin anything different - like facts

it no wonder yr struggling bro, but thats OK i was raised a catholic took me awhile to get things too.

:razz:


----------



## Dave Colborn

Pete. Ask a question. Make a concise statement.


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## Connie Sutherland

Dave Colborn said:


> Pete. Ask a question. Make a concise statement.



I second the request.


----------



## Gerry Grimwood

I never met anyone that was catholic before...that's like schizophrenia right ??


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

OK *Kansas* not *Ark*, my mistake (shoulda read the post properly), but hey the yellow brick road starts in kansas doesn't it - whichever way it still sux for u. 

you should *try typing in a bigger font* so people can read yr posts and not make mistakes like i just did.


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I never met anyone that was catholic before...that's like schizophrenia right ??


 

catholic is much worse


----------



## Gerry Grimwood

Peter Cavallaro said:


> catholic is much worse


History supports that, I believe.


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## Peter Cavallaro

you can treat schizophrenia


----------



## Bob Scott

Crate, pinch collar, e-collar, choke collar, dd collar. All just tools to be used .....or not. Pretty simple!
This thread has take a bad turn.
Get it back on track!


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## Don Turnipseed

I think this was the thread discussing housebreaking. Here is a picture of Jackie on her first day today. She turned 4 mo 7/21. She got down 3 times and was put back and has been as good as gold while I reszed the picture, run it through photo bucket and posted it. They don't roam the house until they are broke.


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## maggie fraser

Don Turnipseed said:


> I think this was the thread discussing housebreaking. Here is a picture of Jackie on her first day today. She turned 4 mo 7/21. She got down 3 times and was put back and has been as good as gold while I reszed the picture, run it through photo bucket and posted it. They don't roam the house until they are broke.


Don, I seriously doubt you could get a red face on a bleedin sunbed !!!


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## Don Turnipseed

I don't need a sunbed to get a red face Maggie. I am embarrassed for you every time you make another post because they never have a thing to do with dogs. I should dig up some links for you on chit chat boards.

The picture is up to give people an idea how to start housebreaking without a crate and teach the dog some manners at the same time. Well, this is how it is done. Oh, I forgot, you house broke a whole litter of 8 week olds at the same time in your house . Just take em out every couple of hours I think you said. I would love to see you post some info on how you did that without the pups peeing all over the house. That was your one and only post in some time, out of many, that even mentioned a dog.


----------



## maggie fraser

Don Turnipseed said:


> I don't need a sunbed to get a red face Maggie. I am embarrassed for you every time you make another post because they never have a thing to do with dogs. I should dig up some links for you on chit chat boards.
> 
> The picture is up to give people an idea how to start housebreaking without a crate and teach the dog some manners at the same time. Well, this is how it is done. Oh, I forgot, you house broke a whole litter of 8 week olds at the same time in your house . Just take em out every couple of hours I think you said. I would love to see you post some info on how you did that without the pups peeing all over the house. That was your one and only post in some time, out of many, that even mentioned a dog.


I think you'll find you have misquoted me Don, perhaps if you weren't so busy punting pics of your pups in folks' faces, you may have actually read what was there.

As for your contribution on helping folks out how to start housebreaking in the manner that you do with a pup sitting on a chair, is a pretty original line even for a creative guy like you Don. Off the top of my head, I can't think of many more effective ways on how to stifle a pup's drive in preparation for training. 

That was my on topic post Lol.


----------



## Don Turnipseed

You haven't a clue what it takes to stiffle a pups drive Maggie. Seems strange none of these thuings seem to stifle any drive in my dogs, just everyone elses.....but it teaches them the house isn't the place to be crazy. And your post was not on topic...just another typical post from Maggie.


----------



## maggie fraser

Don Turnipseed said:


> You haven't a clue what it takes to stiffle a pups drive Maggie. Seems strange none of these thuings seem to stifle any drive in my dogs, just everyone elses.....but it teaches them the house isn't the place to be crazy. And your post was not on topic...just another typical post from Maggie.


 
Whatever...


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Maggie said


> I always ensure I will have the time to take when acquiring a pup to constantly supervise and toilet train. Not only is it not a pain in the ass, it can actually be quite fun. *I will pop a pup out onto the grass every couple of hours*, immediately after eating and an hour or so later, and of course prior to going to bed and immediately on waking (that may mean I have to wake sharp initially).


I misunderstood this? 7 at a time?


----------



## maggie fraser

maggie fraser said:


> I have raised seven pups in the house (*one at a time*), and I have never owned a crate or crated a dog except occasionally whilst travelling. All were toilet trained (had the idea) in under a week, the gsd pups were generally quicker than the jrts, all from around eight weeks old.


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## Don Turnipseed

Well that clears that up. I missed that part. You are vindicated on that ONE.


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## Howard Gaines III

Don that looks like the time out chair...careful mister!=;


----------



## Howard Gaines III

Don Turnipseed said:


> I don't need a sunbed to get a red face Maggie. I am embarrassed for you every time you make another post because they never have a thing to do with dogs. I should dig up some links for you on chit chat boards.
> QUOTE]
> Amen Brother! =D>


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Howard Gaines III said:


> Don that looks like the time out chair...careful mister!=;


 LOL I guess you could look at it like that Howard...but the dog has a choice that he doesn't have when put in a kennel and forgotten. I always give them a choice. One right and one wrong. As far as the time out thing, I guess you could say "being in my house" is a time out, but, they have the choice. If they are laying on the landing and hear the dogs winding up outside, they go to the door and tell me they want to be crazy for awhile. When they are done, they stand at the gate to the deck and tell me that they are ready to come in and lay in front of the cooler again. That is another thing they learn from the get go. They learn that there is none of this in and out constantly. If they want out, they know they are going to be there awhile.


----------



## Jim Delbridge

oh good grief. Read through the entire thread to see if there were repeats or actual useful knowledge.
Dogs are tactile. If they were raised on carpt from 0-4 weeks then they feel they need to defecate on carpet. If they were raised on dirt and grass then they need to go on dirt and grass. It's easier to housebreak a puppy that's been raised to pee/poo in grass because the "civilized flooring" just isn't right.

That being said. Puppies can go about an hour per month of age between defacations until around the 4 month mark or afterwards. IF the human wants to get some sleep, a crate comes in handy WHILE SLEEPING because (If properly sized) the puppy won't want to defecate in its sleeping area and will whine. Said human can get up, take them outside to the tactile area of grass and dirt.
Puppies need to poo about 20 minutes after eating, so feed them and take them outiside.
Puppies need to poo about 20 minutes after vigorous play, so play with them outside.
Puppies should not be allow to wander unattended until they have a clue because there are electrical cords plugged into the wall, there might be bottles of who-knows-what chemicals in the kitchen/utlity/garage area.
My dogs do have to learn how to live out of a crate as they often get put in hotel rooms/other people's houses/travel trailers/etc when I get put up to train other dog teams or to test. I tend to get a hotel room with two beds because most of my dogs tend to see a hotel room as the ultimate vacation. I do take one crate regardless of one or two dogs with me. 
A crate can be used as a refuge for the dog if utilized properly. I have one dog that has a wire crate in the middle of the house. The dog is geratric, so that crate has a special foam mattress. If my temperatures rise above 100F here, I let the dogs into the house. The three airedales go into my office and the geriatric pointer gets let into the kitchen where he goes to the living room and enters the wire crate on his own. That crate is complete with cardboard roof with a blanket so several cats can sleep above and look down upon him. The door is unlocked. He could leave it any time he wants, but frankly that mattress is the best place in town and he gets to watch cats for hours.
Of the airedales, one gets crated because he will chew blankets if he gets bored. So I'll go into the office and let him out. He's a breed rescue dog with "issues" and just happy to have a home.


I do kennel my dogs, but the kennel is two acres in size. I hope that's ok. It's got six-feet tall unclimbable horse fencing around it in the center of my land such that invasive humans from bordering homesteads don't feel the urge to screw with them.

You guys argue about the silliest things.

Jim


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## Don Turnipseed

Who is arguing Jim? I am just explaining how it is done properly with out a crate....but I was asked. :grin: Besides, most people are crate trained and can't imagine how easy it is.....but most people have already taught there dog the house is the place to go. Makes it tough.


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Don Turnipseed said:


> .... but most people have already taught there dog the house is the place to go. Makes it tough.



Huh? Who is "most people"? :-o


----------



## Don Turnipseed

People with young pups. I always hear, "Oh she is doing so good!!! She only had 5 accidents in the house." LOL The idea is to have no accidents.... but of course, I guess that depends on what a person is trying to re-inforce for a young pups first "learning" experiences. :grin: Besides Connie. most simpley implies more do that don't....could be one more......and since most dog owners are pet owners....well....you can take it from there. :grin:


----------



## Connie Sutherland

_.... the geriatric pointer gets let into the kitchen where he goes to the living room and enters the wire crate on his own. That crate is complete with cardboard roof with a blanket so several cats can sleep above and look down upon him. The door is unlocked. He could leave it any time he wants, but frankly that mattress is the best place in town and he gets to watch cats for hours._

I have an old crate sorta functioning as a doorless end table (yes, my house is totally designer-quality :lol: ). It's backed up against a wall and also has a thin blanket partially covering it and a sheepskin pad inside. The eldest of my dogs uses it as a den for naps. 

I also use a crate with a newly-acquired dog pretty much exactly the way described:
_... a crate comes in handy WHILE SLEEPING because (If properly sized) the puppy won't want to defecate in its sleeping area and will whine. Said human can get up, take them outside to the tactile area of grass and dirt. .... My dogs do have to learn how to live out of a crate as they often get put in hotel rooms/other people's houses/travel trailers/etc when I get put up to train other dog teams or to test. I tend to get a hotel room with two beds because most of my dogs tend to see a hotel room as the ultimate vacation. I do take one crate regardless of one or two dogs with me. _

In addition, I have crates in the car's wayback to minimize the projectile issue in an accident as well as the danger of emergency response people opening the car doors and letting frightened dogs out into traffic. (I have a Champion system, too, but not enough.)

All in all, as infrequently as they are used once a dog has become familiarized to the house and rules, etc., I would hate to be without a crate.


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Don Turnipseed said:


> People with young pups. I always hear, "Oh she is doing so good!!! She only had 5 accidents in the house." LOL The idea is to have no accidents....of course I guess that depends on what a person is trying to re-inforce.


No accidents in the house is of course the only thing to celebrate. Five accidents in the house means five rolled-up newspaper whacks across the snout of the human.


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## Don Turnipseed

I have two crates myself Connie. Use em once in a while but mostly just to store my dog stuff in so I can find it. :grin:


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## Jim Delbridge

You do realize Don that your method is simply an invisble crate. You give them a location(s) they must stay to keep you happy. Not much different than a crate with an open door.
Jim





Don Turnipseed said:


> Who is arguing Jim? I am just explaining how it is done properly with out a crate....but I was asked. :grin: Besides, most people are crate trained and can't imagine how easy it is.....but most people have already taught there dog the house is the place to go. Makes it tough.


----------



## Jim Delbridge

Exactly, if the puppy poops in the house then it's the human's fault.
Shoving their noses in poo only convinces the puppy that the human is truly a psycho and the dog then hopes that showing submission when the human and a pile of poo come together will stifle the reaction.
The human of course anthromorphises and says the dog looks guilty.

Jim




Connie Sutherland said:


> No accidents in the house is of course the only thing to celebrate. Five accidents in the house means five rolled-up newspaper whacks across the snout of the human.


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Jim Delbridge said:


> You do realize Don that your method is simply an invisble crate. You give them a location(s) they must stay to keep you happy. Not much different than a crate with an open door.
> 
> Jim


If that were true, we could say the yard is an invisible crate. I have never met anyone that housebreaks a puppy with the door to the crate open. Kind of defeats the purpose I would say. Here is a picture of Jackie on day two of learning about the house. She is in the second of two places. She started to leave once and I put her back. I took this picture after close to two hours. They are not all this quick, but that should be expected. The first time she gets vocal, whether it is because she has to pee or she is bored, I get up and they go out. This way they learn the protocol to getting out....they have to tell me they are ready what ever the reason. What is different that makes crate training a PITA? I took a ceiling fan down in the bedroom and put a new one up, then, went to the other bedroom and took that one apart, cleaned it, put it up and balanced it. All this while she is learning the house is not a playground, she has to tell me when she wants out, and she doesn't get to wander and pee at her leisure. I don't have to sit and watch them and put them in and out of crates. What is one of the big things she is learning? It is my house and she follows my rules if she wants to lay in front of the cooler when it is 100 degrees outside. And, yes, it is an evaporative cooler. :grin:


----------



## Kristi Siggers

Don that is one great looking pup


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Kristi Siggers said:


> Don that is one great looking pup


Thanks Kristi. She is kind of pathetic looking there but he hit the yard a running. Pretty sure I didn't break her spirit. LOL


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## Peter Cavallaro

i like the invisble crate concept


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

Don will get back to you with photos of the dale outcross in one of our oldest hunting lines - the X definately put more nose back into the line which was starting to lack. hence the dale experiment.

i am not sure what the breeder can do now, if he crosses back to the original line he will loose what he gained with the dale X and if he goes dale again he will lose what he had in the original. 

seems like a real dilema i can't see a way out of it, either way you make the next mating you can't repeat the litter unless a new breeding pair were used?? or obviously just keep repeating the same mating?? 

glad i'm not a breeder.


----------



## Jim Delbridge

Don, 
Just because you haven't heard of anyone crate training with the crate door open doesn't mean it hasn't been done. The invisible crate is something I learned .....dang 18 years ago. We used it to cheat on training a stay any where we went. We would teach a dog to "stay" on the "blankie" when teaching obedience at an early age. Need the dog to stay without a lead, thrown down a towel, point at it and say "blankie." Our dogs would stay as long as the "blankie" was there. We thought it was pretty novel until an obedience judge told us she called it an "invisible crate" and it had been around a long long time. There's really not much new in dog training, like the wheel it keeps getting re-invented.

Jim


----------



## Bob Scott

Jim, I've used an unwashed t-shirt the same way. It seems to relax a new pup.


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Jim Delbridge said:


> Don,
> Just because you haven't heard of anyone crate training with the crate door open doesn't mean it hasn't been done. The invisible crate is something I learned .....dang 18 years ago. We used it to cheat on training a stay any where we went. We would teach a dog to "stay" on the "blankie" when teaching obedience at an early age. Need the dog to stay without a lead, thrown down a towel, point at it and say "blankie." Our dogs would stay as long as the "blankie" was there. We thought it was pretty novel until an obedience judge told us she called it an "invisible crate" and it had been around a long long time. There's really not much new in dog training, like the wheel it keeps getting re-invented.
> 
> Jim


I never put names to everything Jim, So something was called and invisible crate years ago, Now it has evolved to crate training with the door closed. We use a shirt to find lost dogs in the wilderness. Throw a shirt n the ground for the dog, go home and go to sleep and pick the dog up the next day. What I am doing, since Dave asked how to house train a pup without a crate and why it is easier, is showing folks how it is done. It is easier and the dog is actually trained in all aspects of living in the house when you are done. This isn't new, it is how it was done before crates. Heck, I remember when they started making plastic crates. Crates are mone of the best things that happend for dog owners, one of the worst for dog training. IMO of course.


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

e-collar - the invisible leash!!


----------



## Jim Nash

Holly mother of god !!! 

I now know way more about house breaking a damn puppy then I ever wanted to know . The puppies I've known that where difficult to house train proved to be just stupid dogs period as they grew up .


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

i think some pups are just cleaner than others. 

i have never house trained a dog in my life but neither of my 2 dogs including a young pup has ever gone inside - i think that it is just preferable for them to go outside if they have a choice.

i'm yet to see how its a training issue, but what the hey do i know or maybe i have just been lucky with the first 2 house dogs i ever owned, i prefer to tell u lot that its just great training - invisible trining in fact.

keep an eye out for me upcoming "invisible training" DVD, i know we can't advertise here but get your pre-orders in for a 5% discount. 11 chapters and goes for 6 hours of just invisible training. 

i suggest you watch it with a good book at hand.


----------



## Colin Chin

rick smith said:


> one of the reasons i would probably never buy a dog bred here and maybe the same stuff happens other places .... litters split up and sold off b4 momma has a chance to get em straight ... has been a BIG pet peeve of mine for years, and altho i've heard lots of reasons why it's not a big deal to split a litter early, i'm not convinced.....when to start selling em off could be another thread too


For this natural correction to work, when it is a good time to split the dam and litter up ? Thanks.


----------



## Colin Chin

Bob Scott said:


> I brought home more then one pup at 6 weeks. I've not seen any difference from any pups I've brought home at 8-10 weeks.
> I will say though that I haven't brought home a new pup when I didn't have at least one adult to "supervise" their dog manners.


Hi Bob,
How much time did you let your new pup mingle with the older dog in your house a day ? Is it some kind of 24/7 except those period you were training the new pup ? Do they get doggy in return ? Cheers.


----------



## Jim Delbridge

Peter Cavallaro said:


> e-collar - the invisible leash!!


yes, it is. Oddly though, you almost have to wrestle some handlers to the ground to get them to admit that. I've had handlers turn pale when I ask for the transmitter and then throw it in the truck, telling them they can have it when they are done working their dog off-lead. If they balk then I get out a long-line, hand it to them, and say "let's be honest about how you're working the dog then, aye?"

My youngest has been going through his teenage rebellion stage. When he was 6-months old, I had a rock-solid recall on him. Now, he has to think about it. So, the long-line came out and it drug on the ground. If he started to think otherwise, I have time to step on it. I can say "wait" and then he gives himself a natural correction. This last weekend I worked a blind with him and put on a six-foot lead and let it drag. Someone asked, "what's with the short lead?" My reply was, he's getting better. I just want to remind him of what will happen if he decides to screw with me again." When we got into the heavy vegetation, I pulled the six-foot lead off, patted his head, and told him to go back to work. No issues.

I don't own a stim-collar and think they are the second worst invention for dog training. I consider the clicker the worst because of the religion that's grown up around it. Crates are just convenient. I've had hotel staff visibly relax when they see me bring in a crate to my room. The dog probably won't be in the crate the entire stay, but they don't have to know that.

Oh, you should realize that when my dogs work, they might be working off-lead next to a major highway.


Jim


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Point taken Jim. I don't own a stim collar either and agree on the clicker. Crates are great in the right hands....but so is about anything else. :grin:


----------



## Jim Delbridge

So true. All tools can be abused by fools. That's why they follow new submariners around to make sure they don't feel compelled to find out what that "big red button" does. Being an engineer, they'd have had to follow me around twice as long.

Jim


----------



## Howard Gaines III

Connie Sutherland said:


> No accidents in the house is of course the only thing to celebrate. Five accidents in the house means five rolled-up newspaper whacks across the snout of the human.


 Careful as the PETA folk will cry on that one!!!!!!!!!! :-$[-X


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Howard Gaines III said:


> Careful as the PETA folk will cry on that one!!!!!!!!!! :-$[-X


They care about whacking humans on the snout?


----------



## Bob Scott

Colin Chin said:


> Hi Bob,
> How much time did you let your new pup mingle with the older dog in your house a day ? Is it some kind of 24/7 except those period you were training the new pup ? Do they get doggy in return ? Cheers.


I've had multiple dogs at one time my whole life and all have ran together. Groups of mixed sex, same sex, puppies and adults. Bitches in season were the obvious exception. My two, intact, male, working line GSDs are outside dogs and are together 24/7.
I've never had an issue with dogs becoming to "doggy".
I suppose that can happen but I've never seen it with any of mine.
When I had terriers, show line and working line, they were ALL house dogs and had the run of the house. Even one particular working line JRT that had temperment issues waaay beyond the typical nucking futs little terrier.


----------



## Cassandra Lane

Didn't Peta give away a vasectomy? Maybe they'd prefer you use a knife then. LOL


----------



## catherine hardigan

Gillian Schuler said:


> That's why I use a crate but then I never leave a pup for a long day. I've even taken them to work or to meetings. By the time they got through the train ride to Zürich and walked down the Bahnhofstrasse to my office, they were relatively quiet, and a chewy bone kept them occupied whilst I worked.


You work on the Bahnhofstrasse? I'm surprised anybody is allowed to bring a pet inside such places... your dogs must be well behaved indeed.

That or you are a very good customer.


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Bob Scott said:


> I've had multiple dogs at one time my whole life and all have ran together. Groups of mixed sex, same sex, puppies and adults. Bitches in season were the obvious exception. My two, intact, male, working line GSDs are outside dogs and are together 24/7.
> I've never had an issue with dogs becoming to "doggy".
> I suppose that can happen but I've never seen it with any of mine.
> When I had terriers, show line and working line, they were ALL house dogs and had the run of the house. Even one particular working line JRT that had temperment issues waaay beyond the typical nucking futs little terrier.


To add to Bob's observations, I will add that confident dogs never seem to get doggy when allowed to run with other dogs. The ones that always get doggy are the weaker dogs that really are not that comfortable around people to start with. The less confident ones are the ones that may need to be kept away from a pack environment.


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## Don Turnipseed

And OT a bit, it is Jim Delbridges birthday today. Got one more out of the way. Big Happy Birthday to another "old timer". Well getting there anyway. LOL


----------



## Sandra King

Don Turnipseed said:


> To add to Bob's observations, I will add that confident dogs never seem to get doggy when allowed to run with other dogs. The ones that always get doggy are the weaker dogs that really are not that comfortable around people to start with. The less confident ones are the ones that may need to be kept away from a pack environment.


Agreed. Back then Gildo vom Koerbelbach and Olko vom Baerenfang used to run together. At one point we had five males in the house. Gildo, Olko, Satan, Diabolo and Diego later on Garfield replaced Diego. None of them ever got doggy. 

However, it can cause problems. More physically than mentally. The older dogs can run over the younger dogs causing injuries which I had happen recently. My young male, an over the top prospect, can't be worked because of his leg deformity. I have all that experience and yet it happened. Shit happens but it can be avoided. In the house, no issue but once outside, they should be separated, at least until they are old enough so you don't have to worry about growing plates, etc..


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## Bob Scott

HBD Jim!!
Which one got ya? I'm looking at 66 next month......but I only hurt when I laugh now. :wink:


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## Colin Chin

Bob Scott said:


> HBD Jim!!
> Which one got ya? I'm looking at 66 next month......but I only hurt when I laugh now. :wink:


Happy belated Birthday to Jim. 

And, Bob when's your brithday next month ? If I forget by then, wish you A Blessed Birthday in advance.


----------



## Colin Chin

Don Turnipseed said:


> To add to Bob's observations, I will add that confident dogs never seem to get doggy when allowed to run with other dogs. The ones that always get doggy are the weaker dogs that really are not that comfortable around people to start with. The less confident ones are the ones that may need to be kept away from a pack environment.


Hi Don, to be more specific what may we define a dog getting being doggy ? On the other hand, I understand your explanation above though as I have seen one before this kind of dog. Thanks.


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## Don Turnipseed

When the dog preferrs to be with the dogs rather than me, Colin.


----------



## Howard Gaines III

Wolfman...........LOL


----------



## Vince Jones

Howard Gaines III said:


> Careful as the PETA folk will cry on that one!!!!!!!!!! :-$[-X


I just received my PETA card in the mail. Of course this PETA stands for People Eating Tasty Animlas


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Sandra King said:


> Agreed. Back then Gildo vom Koerbelbach and Olko vom Baerenfang used to run together. At one point we had five males in the house. Gildo, Olko, Satan, Diabolo and Diego later on Garfield replaced Diego. None of them ever got doggy.
> 
> However, it can cause problems. More physically than mentally. The older dogs can run over the younger dogs causing injuries which I had happen recently. My young male, an over the top prospect, can't be worked because of his leg deformity. I have all that experience and yet it happened. Shit happens but it can be avoided. In the house, no issue but once outside, they should be separated, at least until they are old enough so you don't have to worry about growing plates, etc..


Pardon me, if I err 8-[ but Gildo Körbelbach and Olko Bärenfang are history, admittedly excellent history, but I have to wonder if you were in your nappies when they were running around together??


----------



## Bob Scott

Colin Chin said:


> Hi Don, to be more specific what may we define a dog getting being doggy ? On the other hand, I understand your explanation above though as I have seen one before this kind of dog. Thanks.


Something simple I've always looked at.
When I train my dogs it's usually one on one and done outside my yard. When bringing that particular dog back in the yard I want to see the yard dog(s) come to me instead of the dog I'm bringing in. Their attention on me tells me the dog I'm bring back in is less important in the pack structure.


----------



## Gillian Schuler

catherine hardigan said:


> You work on the Bahnhofstrasse? I'm surprised anybody is allowed to bring a pet inside such places... your dogs must be well behaved indeed.
> 
> That or you are a very good customer.


Not at all - just an appreciated and serious employee!!!


----------



## Sandra King

Gillian Schuler said:


> Pardon me, if I err 8-[ but Gildo Körbelbach and Olko Bärenfang are history, admittedly excellent history, but I have to wonder if you were in your nappies when they were running around together??


Yes, but they are an excellent example that male dogs get along just fine if you handle them the right way and that a dog doesn't turn out to be doggy and can be successful even though they are kept together, uncrated, in the house. Five powerful males from one of the strongest working lines used to live, uncrated, in the house and that for the years and years and years. So anyone trying to tell me that it's not possible and the only way to keep multiple males in the house is via crating... I know otherwise.


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## Gillian Schuler

How did you experience these dogs - if you pardon my asking? You surely weren't in charge of them? Is this just hearsay?


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## Sandra King

Gillian Schuler said:


> How did you experience these dogs - if you pardon my asking? You surely weren't in charge of them?


Gildo and Olko were wonderful family dogs. They used to pull us on a sled, they went with us on vacation in Denmark on a Camping Site yearly for six weeks, laying outside in the tent and sleeping in the trailer with us. 

Our parents put a lot of trust into us and the dogs. They knew they could leave the house, knowing that we could handle them. Also, my mother put me in charge of the kenneled dogs. Most of the time it was me letting them out and run, while cleaning their kennel and then feeding them afterwards with raw meat, without supervision. I was never scared of any of our dogs. Gildo was (obviously) my fathers dog, Olko and Satan used to be my mothers dog. Diabolo and Diego used to be "my" dogs until they were sold. Garfield was my Sister Danielas Dog and lived with my family until he died. Later on I had Dixie, she was placed with a woman, then I took over Rekja which became one of the brood bitches. 

The funny part was that we handeled and played fetch with dogs that some adults wouldn't have dared to touch, let alone, to take a ball away from.


----------



## Jim Delbridge

Turned 52, still a spring chicken, but I'm trying to diligently practice my "old man sounds."

Jim


----------



## Joby Becker

Jim Delbridge said:


> Turned 52, still a spring chicken, but I'm trying to diligently practice my "old man sounds."
> 
> Jim


what are those?


----------



## Howard Gaines III

the walking farts...:evil:


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## Don Turnipseed

Jim, after a few more years you will find walking and farting can be pretty risky....ask Bob. :grin:


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Sandra King said:


> Gildo and Olko were wonderful family dogs. They used to pull us on a sled, they went with us on vacation in Denmark on a Camping Site yearly for six weeks, laying outside in the tent and sleeping in the trailer with us.
> 
> Our parents put a lot of trust into us and the dogs. They knew they could leave the house, knowing that we could handle them. Also, my mother put me in charge of the kenneled dogs. Most of the time it was me letting them out and run, while cleaning their kennel and then feeding them afterwards with raw meat, without supervision. I was never scared of any of our dogs. Gildo was (obviously) my fathers dog, Olko and Satan used to be my mothers dog. Diabolo and Diego used to be "my" dogs until they were sold. Garfield was my Sister Danielas Dog and lived with my family until he died. Later on I had Dixie, she was placed with a woman, then I took over Rekja which became one of the brood bitches.
> 
> The funny part was that we handeled and played fetch with dogs that some adults wouldn't have dared to touch, let alone, to take a ball away from.


The last sentence makes me shudder!!

I still think at the tender age you must have been to experience these dogs - I know they were competing at BSP, etc. and you probably first met them when they were finished with their careers - Gildo was more known as a good stud dog, you were not in a position to judge how they interacted.

Let's face it, these dogs were born 1980-1983!!!!!!


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## Don Turnipseed

1980 and 83....that's no big deal. I was 35. How old is Sandra anyway??? :grin:


----------



## Bob Scott

Jim Delbridge said:


> Turned 52, still a spring chicken, but I'm trying to diligently practice my "old man sounds."
> 
> Jim


"Old man sounds" Be VERY careful of those grunts. Things can happen. :lol:
The advantage to getting older is your multi-tasking will increase ten fold.
I can sneeze, fart and piss my pants all at the same time.
One of the most important fact of life;
NEVER trust a fart! :lol:

It really isn't all that bad....honest!
Good woman, good kids, good grandkids and good dogs. The world is mine now!:wink:


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Sandra King said:


> ... The funny part was that we handeled and played fetch with dogs that some adults wouldn't have dared to touch, let alone, to take a ball away from.


Like Gillian, this makes me cringe a bit. Were you of an age to assess this?

I know this board is mostly adults, but that doesn't mean, despite the huge majority of knowledgeable working-dog folks here, that there are no first-timers here who might read "They knew they could leave the house, knowing that we could handle them" and conclude that this might be a good and reasonable goal .... 


JMO!


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## Don Turnipseed

Connie, I know people haven't changed according to some, but I was taking care of younger bro/sis when I was 7. We were left unsupervised all day....and we better have the house clean when the parents came home. I was heading off on my bicycle with a 12 gauge shotgun when I was 12....dog by my side off leash....in town. We were raised with dogs and they loved us kids even though we were nasty to them sometimes. I had a big male boxer take my mom to the floor one time for hitting me....loved that dog.....and he stayed even after that incident. People are afraid of stuff today that was just normal everyday stuff at one time. I had one dog open a friends thigh up. We were about 12-13. Terrible bite. No lawsuts and all that the people of today, that haven't changed a bit, would be jumping on. Most all family dogs were very protective of their kids. Even the nasty dogs were reliable for the most part.


----------



## Dave Colborn

Don Turnipseed said:


> What I am doing, since Dave asked how to house train a pup without a crate and why it is easier, is showing folks how it is done.



We covered this. You yell and monitor. That is your system to house break. Not a bad system for a good pet. I won't argue that.

As mentioned, it will knock the drive out of some dogs. Try and search them in a house after you have made them "not crazy" in the house. Stifles drive. You can't really assess though this as you don't work dogs with the type of drive needed for personal protection and police work.

we used to train mainly compulsion with some verbal reward for bitework and OB in the military. If you have a dog that does well with this, you generally have a truly great dog. Dogs that can stand all the pressure and still do well are the strong ones. They are few and far between. The truth is, most people do very well with mediocre dogs trained thoughtfully. Don, yours are untested, but i am willing to give it an honest shot if you'll send one out to me, or better yet, fly me out to test one and fly us both back. I have time for this now. I'll do all I can to make your dog succeed.


----------



## Dave Colborn

Jim Delbridge said:


> yes, it is. Oddly though, you almost have to wrestle some handlers to the ground to get them to admit that. I've had handlers turn pale when I ask for the transmitter and then throw it in the truck, telling them they can have it when they are done working their dog off-lead. If they balk then I get out a long-line, hand it to them, and say "let's be honest about how you're working the dog then, aye?"
> 
> My youngest has been going through his teenage rebellion stage. When he was 6-months old, I had a rock-solid recall on him. Now, he has to think about it. So, the long-line came out and it drug on the ground. If he started to think otherwise, I have time to step on it. I can say "wait" and then he gives himself a natural correction. This last weekend I worked a blind with him and put on a six-foot lead and let it drag. Someone asked, "what's with the short lead?" My reply was, he's getting better. I just want to remind him of what will happen if he decides to screw with me again." When we got into the heavy vegetation, I pulled the six-foot lead off, patted his head, and told him to go back to work. No issues.
> 
> I don't own a stim-collar and think they are the second worst invention for dog training. I consider the clicker the worst because of the religion that's grown up around it. Crates are just convenient. I've had hotel staff visibly relax when they see me bring in a crate to my room. The dog probably won't be in the crate the entire stay, but they don't have to know that.
> 
> Oh, you should realize that when my dogs work, they might be working off-lead next to a major highway.
> 
> 
> Jim


So you put a leash on to have access to a correction where someone with an E-Collar has a remote. can you explain the difference?


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Dave said


> You can't really assess though this as you don't work dogs with the type of drive needed for personal protection and police work.


No I don't have dogs with that kind of drive Dave. My dogs get broke up, ribs broke. killed, and everything else and still finish the job. Probably wouldn't do that with the kind of drive you are looking for. :wink: And I bring em home, doctor them for up to 3 mo, and listen to em cry to go every time I take the other dogs out without them.


----------



## Dave Colborn

Don Turnipseed said:


> Dave said
> 
> 
> No I don't have dogs with that kind of drive Dave. My dogs get broke up, ribs broke. killed, and everything else and still finish the job. Probably wouldn't do that with the kind of drive you are looking for. :wink: And I bring em home, doctor them for up to 3 mo, and listen to em cry to go every time I take the other dogs out without them.


Attacking an animal is natural. Attacking a man is not. Especially after you yell at them. Do you get lots of live bites with your dogs?? What I am telling you don, is you haven't any proof of what you suspect. I am willing to help. You may be right, but you may be kennel blind. All of your dogs that will take a broken bone from a hog will lay down at a word from you. Doesn't mean a lot, but it means something


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Don Turnipseed said:


> Connie, I know people haven't changed according to some, but I was taking care of younger bro/sis when I was 7. We were left unsupervised all day....and we better have the house clean when the parents came home. I was heading off on my bicycle with a 12 gauge shotgun when I was 12....dog by my side off leash....in town. We were raised with dogs and they loved us kids even though we were nasty to them sometimes. I had a big male boxer take my mom to the floor one time for hitting me....loved that dog.....and he stayed even after that incident. People are afraid of stuff today that was just normal everyday stuff at one time. I had one dog open a friends thigh up. We were about 12-13. Terrible bite. No lawsuts and all that the people of today, that haven't changed a bit, would be jumping on. Most all family dogs were very protective of their kids. Even the nasty dogs were reliable for the most part.


Not my point, Don. 

I think I'm probably around your age, and I think that as the eldest of seven, with two working parents, I grew up with similar responsibilities. Also had our dogs with us all the time -- pretty much _not_ dogs who "adults wouldn't have dared to touch."

I had no lawsuit-happy populace or anything like that in mind when I posted.


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Dave Colborn said:


> Attacking an animal is natural. Attacking a man is not. Especially after you yell at them. Do you get lots of live bites with your dogs?? What I am telling you don, is you haven't any proof of what you suspect. I am willing to help. You may be right, but you may be kennel blind. All of your dogs that will take a broken bone from a hog will lay down at a word from you. Doesn't mean a lot, but it means something


Dave, you guys must all read from the same script. One or two dogs attacking a 300 to 400 lb bear or hog that can kill them is not natural. Far from it. These dogs are not even doing it to eat. Get a new script. I am not even sure what you mean that my dogs will layn down with a word from me.....they won't lay down regardless what I say when they are fired up.


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## Sara Waters

Back in the early seventies when I lived in Africa, I remember our neighbour had GSDS. They had a big young uneutered male named Meester that was only exercised running with us kids. He was great with us kids who he knew although he was the neighbours "guard" dog too. 

We had a kid from down the street wander in and play with us which was A pretty common event as we all used to wander the streets unsupervised, we were running outside with the dogs for quite awhile when suddenly Meester attacked and sank his teeth into the back or neck of this little boy of about 9 yo. From memory and older kid got the boy away.

There were no adults present and adults from down the street were attracted by the screams of the boy who was carted off to hospital for numerous stitches. It was a pretty bad bite from all accounts.

There was no suing but my mum told me that my neighbours had signed him over to police who had come and taken Meester away to become a South African police dog. 

My experience of him was as a nice dog that we loved to play with, but as kids we would never have been able to read the signs and would have never seen something like that coming. There was very little supervision of any kind back in those days and most of the time there was never any problems.


----------



## Don Turnipseed

I have been thinking about Daves comment about how it is natural for a dog to attack animals. If that is the case, a dogs with the drives Dave works with, GSD's. Mals etc, should be hell on wheels going after large predators because they will attack a man. But it doesn't make sense because they can't/won't do it. So, is it drives as Dave suggests....or possibly breeding? Would most GSD's/mals stay in the fight till they expired with man or animal. I don't think so personally. That is breeding. Has nothing to do with drives. Yes, drives have to do with the desire, but, breeding has to do with the staying power.


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Sara, in my response to Connie, I had a dog lay a kids thigh open. It wasn't the end of the world, it was a dog bite. No more, no less. When there is a dog, there is always the potential for someone to get bit. No, one freaked out over it. That was a collie by the way. Very popular dogs in the 50"s. Today, it would make headlines. P of A.


----------



## Sandra King

Gillian Schuler said:


> The last sentence makes me shudder!!
> 
> I still think at the tender age you must have been to experience these dogs - I know they were competing at BSP, etc. and you probably first met them when they were finished with their careers - Gildo was more known as a good stud dog, you were not in a position to judge how they interacted.
> 
> Let's face it, these dogs were born 1980-1983!!!!!!


 I grew up with those dogs and lived with them on a daily basis until the day they died and I was a teenager by then. I even remember the days when Gildo moved in with us. We actually grew up in a camping trailer because we used to travel from competition to competition.
Yeah, Gildo was even qualified for the world championships but a certain person made sure that he didn't have the chance to go. Instead another dog competed and got disqualified and all because somebody was extremely jealous. They weren't finished dogs when they moved into the house. However, my parents wouldn't have left us with dogs if they had been any danger to us they would have kept us away from them. 

Stud Dogs? Only AFTER Gildo had died he became that popular. Not a single breeder from the Landesgruppe Baden used Gildo as a Stud Dog. Gildo had less "Deckakte" in a year than certain Show line Dogs in a couple of months.
It was said that he was way to difficult to handle and would produce dogs that were way out of control. He was bashed and downtalked by certain breeders and handlers just to keep him down an to make him look bad so other people could look good. And those very same people still play their game today. That person made quite a few people quit and leave the SV because they couldn't deal with that Bullshit anymore. That person didn't care who got caught in the crossfire as long as he succeded. 

15+ years is enough to learn the in and outs of what is going on with the SV and one of the reasons I am against competing is because of what I witnessed as a kid and teenager. It wasn't fair back then and it's not fair today.

We never had a single incident where any of us sisters or friends got hurt by any of our dogs.


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

If that is the case, a dogs with the drives Dave works with, GSD's. Mals etc, should be hell on wheels going after large predators because they will attack a man. 

i think this is worth its own thread as it is a bit off topic but i would like to see more opinion on this question; 

check the pic i posted in the terrier thread - can repost it here if u want - thats the ultimate athlete, if that dog (now deceased) was civil you wouldn't see anymore shepherds in bite sports or PSD/MWD.

that dog wouldn't ever bother to chase a ball or a sleeve but no shepherd would match it taking down large prey, - i have never understood what is actually at play here.


----------



## Sara Waters

Dave Colborn said:


> We covered this. You yell and monitor. That is your system to house break. Not a bad system for a good pet. I won't argue that.
> 
> As mentioned, it will knock the drive out of some dogs. Try and search them in a house after you have made them "not crazy" in the house. Stifles drive. You can't really assess though this as you don't work dogs with the type of drive needed for personal protection and police work.
> .


Just trying to get my head around your use of the word drive and my own interpretation of the word drive. 

I have what I would call an extremely high drive working BC. Nothing dents his confidence and he will take correction and bounce right back. He is a hard dog and is obsessed by the need to work and control sheep and will tackle my most stubborn rams. But his breeding is to control stock not humans. He has considerable "drive" and would work till he collapsed if I let him.

I once had an ACD, she was a reletively mellow social animal and didnt enjoy rough play or being shouted at, but if she percieved a threat to me she would tackle a human as I found out once when I was under threat. She was totally fearless, and had what I would observe as a calculated aggression and quite willing to use her teeth if required. She would also scale very high fences if I put her into kennels in her efforts to try and get back to me. She was a determined animal that one but not sure I would call her high drive in most situations. 

Her strong " drive" was to protect me whereas my BC has strong drive to control stock.

My other ACD had a higher drive to engage if you put on heavy gloves she would drive in and bite and get really into it and would keep going untill you were exhausted. But she was not in the same class as my more mellow ACD when it game to a real life threat, she was not a dog I would have counted on wheras my other one there was no doubt.


----------



## Sara Waters

Peter Cavallaro said:


> If that is the case, a dogs with the drives Dave works with, GSD's. Mals etc, should be hell on wheels going after large predators because they will attack a man.
> 
> .


Not sure it is neccesarily transferable. One of my ACDS will try and take down a kangaroo on her own and would keep going till she either did it or was killed in the process and when she is in that mode, she is very very difficult to stop. A kangaroo may not be a bear but is a lot tougher and dangerous than an unarmed man.

But no way she would go after a person in the same manner mind you nor have I taught her too, she is very friendly with people. She has a very high prey drive for any animals. 
Gets back to the thought that a high drive is not neccessaily linked to being able to take down a man.


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

Sara Waters said:


> Not sure it is neccesarily transferable.
> 
> that was actually a quote from a previous poster, nit sure why the "[quote..]" didn't appear.


----------



## Sara Waters

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Sara Waters said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure it is neccesarily transferable.
> 
> that was actually a quote from a previous poster, nit sure why the "[quote..]" didn't appear.
> 
> 
> 
> Cos I didnt quote, didnt know a previous poster had already said that and I am sure that thought doesnt have a patent on it LOL. I didnt read every last post in detail LOL, have other things to do as well like training my dogs. But it is a common thought like dog aggressive dogs often arent human aggressive and vsversa
Click to expand...


----------



## Dave Colborn

Don Turnipseed said:


> I have been thinking about Daves comment about how it is natural for a dog to attack animals. If that is the case, a dogs with the drives Dave works with, GSD's. Mals etc, should be hell on wheels going after large predators because they will attack a man. But it doesn't make sense because they can't/won't do it. So, is it drives as Dave suggests....or possibly breeding? Would most GSD's/mals stay in the fight till they expired with man or animal. I don't think so personally. That is breeding. Has nothing to do with drives. Yes, drives have to do with the desire, but, breeding has to do with the staying power.


Don. Sorry I didn't say for your dogs which is what I meant. Don't you admittedly breed your dogs for this? Genetics are natural. It's what the dog is born with. Police dogs aren't bred for this, generally.


----------



## Dave Colborn

Don Turnipseed said:


> I have been thinking about Daves comment about how it is natural for a dog to attack animals. If that is the case, a dogs with the drives Dave works with, GSD's. Mals etc, should be hell on wheels going after large predators because they will attack a man. But it doesn't make sense because they can't/won't do it. So, is it drives as Dave suggests....or possibly breeding? Would most GSD's/mals stay in the fight till they expired with man or animal. I don't think so personally. That is breeding. Has nothing to do with drives. Yes, drives have to do with the desire, but, breeding has to do with the staying power.



I have heard, not seen, that some malinois ARE hell on wheels with hogs. Who says they can't or won't do it? YOU. You do this in most of your arguements, telling people what dogs will and won't do, and don't support it. Start a thread about herders doing hog work. And now have you flip flopped again and say that your dogs won't do it naturally, so apparently it isn't genetic for them. Do you understand drives are inherent in a dog, they are how genetics are displayed. They are displayed after they leave mom, then they are genetic and then covered by experiences, IE a pet owner yelling at them to stay on a chair.


----------



## Dave Colborn

Sara Waters said:


> Just trying to get my head around your use of the word drive and my own interpretation of the word drive.
> 
> I have what I would call an extremely high drive working BC. Nothing dents his confidence and he will take correction and bounce right back. He is a hard dog and is obsessed by the need to work and control sheep and will tackle my most stubborn rams. But his breeding is to control stock not humans. He has considerable "drive" and would work till he collapsed if I let him.
> 
> I once had an ACD, she was a reletively mellow social animal and didnt enjoy rough play or being shouted at, but if she percieved a threat to me she would tackle a human as I found out once when I was under threat. She was totally fearless, and had what I would observe as a calculated aggression and quite willing to use her teeth if required. She would also scale very high fences if I put her into kennels in her efforts to try and get back to me. She was a determined animal that one but not sure I would call her high drive in most situations.
> 
> Her strong " drive" was to protect me whereas my BC has strong drive to control stock.
> 
> My other ACD had a higher drive to engage if you put on heavy gloves she would drive in and bite and get really into it and would keep going untill you were exhausted. But she was not in the same class as my more mellow ACD when it game to a real life threat, she was not a dog I would have counted on wheras my other one there was no doubt.



Prey Drive = Dog's desire to chase catch and kill 

Defense Drive = Dogs reaction when confronted by a threat. Fight, flight (pre avoidance followed by avoidance) or displacement. 

If you through social behaviors in here as well, I challenge you to find something a dog does that isn't a learned behavior and isn't under one of these three areas. Prey, Defense, Social. It doesn't change anything about what the dog is. Just helps you catagorize when you see something.


----------



## Sandra King

My dog is a prey monster as well but if you toss a sleeve in one direction and have the helper run the other way... you bet she's going after the sleeve and I have no issue admitting it. I don't want her going after humans, it would be very counter-productive for the SAR work and I'd like to keep it that way. 

Anyhow, I do believe that there are dogs (even shepherds) born to hunt. I do believe there are differences in prey drive. 

My bitch has a great prey drive but I can work her around the geese and even pley fetch right there and then and she wouldn't be bothered by them. Take another dog and you might have a dog that focuses more on the geese than the ball. 

Either you have a dog going off hunting geese, deer, bunnies, whatever is running, or you don't.


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Dave Colborn said:


> I have heard, not seen, that some malinois ARE hell on wheels with hogs. Who says they can't or won't do it? YOU. You do this in most of your arguements, telling people what dogs will and won't do, and don't support it. Start a thread about herders doing hog work. And now have you flip flopped again and say that your dogs won't do it naturally, so apparently it isn't genetic for them. Do you understand drives are inherent in a dog, they are how genetics are displayed. They are displayed after they leave mom, then they are genetic and then covered by experiences, IE a pet owner yelling at them to stay on a chair.


Must be a real exception to the rule if they are because I have never heard of anyone even wasting their time using these breeds. I always kind of figured there was a reason for that Dave. Of course you can fimnd a specific dog of any kind that is an exception.....which is what you are doing because it is far from th norm for these breeds. Guardian dogs are that because they have no inclination to chase. They stay and protect. No prey drive just defence pretty much. I think that is what it would be called today. Hunting dogs won't stay and protect, they will chace a threat to kingdom come because that is what they were bred for, not staying and protecting. Then there are trainers that don't believe any dogs will bite a person without their special touch. Even then they think they have to teach a dog how to bite....a sleeve or a suit. Dave, odds are, a hog hookmone of the dogs that will bite a person, and toss it 8 feet in the air turning end over end, ten feet back into the brush, you would never get them back into the fight even if you could catch them. That is the reality side of it Dave. 

As far as drives, I am just not sure which ones you dogs muct have that makes them different. I understand they have to have great ball drive....maybe a touch of fight drive.....high food drive helps with training.....maybe hunt drive. You must mean the dogs you train have man bite drive???? You want to see flight drive first hand, take dogs you have trained to bite a person and put them down with a bear. What you see will be flight drive as you call it. Three drives Dave, One to procreate, one to survive, one to eat. Those are the main drives and everything in the world a dog does comes under one of these main drives. LMAO I just can't keep pulling your chain like this Dave. Just no point in it. You believe what you want to believe. Offer is still open if you ever get over this way....bring a full suit. :grin:


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## Don Turnipseed

Oh crap, I just reread you last post Dave, I forgot defense drive and prey drive. Sorry.


----------



## Dave Colborn

Don Turnipseed said:


> Dave, *odds are*, a hog hook one of the dogs that will bite a person, and toss it 8 feet in the air turning end over end, ten feet back into the brush, you would never get them back into the fight even if you could catch them. That is the *reality* side of it Dave.


Odds=Possibility Reality = Fact

Any proof of your reality? Because it isn't reality. It just isn't. Get a hog to hook my boxer, Don. Get him to hook a high drive Mal that has been raised on Hogs like your dogs. Show me that. Show me. Stop saying things and expecting people to believe it because you have pics of a dog next to a hog and you. You certainly can be telling the truth about your hog hunting abilities. Then you say things that you cant quantify or qualify and it makes me and maybe others wonder about your hog hunting dogs.

When you don't get out of your fishpond, you only know about the fish that are there and their abilities. 



> As far as drives, I am just not sure which ones you dogs muct have that makes them different. I understand they have to have great ball drive....maybe a touch of fight drive.....high food drive helps with training.....maybe hunt drive. You must mean the dogs you train have man bite drive???? You want to see flight drive first hand, take dogs you have trained to bite a person and put them down with a bear. What you see will be flight drive as you call it. Three drives Dave, One to procreate, one to survive, one to eat. Those are the main drives and everything in the world a dog does comes under one of these main drives. LMAO I just can't keep pulling your chain like this Dave. Just no point in it. You believe what you want to believe. Offer is still open if you ever get over this way....bring a full suit. :grin:


Don. All dogs have the same drives prey and defense. The amount of each is different in each dog. Mother nature takes care of this. After they are out of the womb, the environment takes over. IE when you take that rock solid dog and yell at it for leaving the furniture, that affects him. He doesn't move because a man yelling scares him into staying. Nurture vs. nature.

If you had read any of the previous post, you would see I put dog behaviors under prey drive, defensive drive, or social behaviors. Yet again, you typed up some new thoughts on the fly and came up with something that I can put under one drive in "your" system. Please don't mistake this for what I believe, just shortening up what you are trying to say. Adopting a more clear system will help with your discussing dogs with less typing.


Procreate, survive, and eat are "drives" you listed, Don. To procreate is survival of the breed. Eating is survival of the individual. So you listed survival, basically, but in your long winded approach to everything, and typing new ideas (to you) on the fly, you have again made three catagories when you could just have one, survival. We are trying to make this easier to talk about, not make smokescreens to cover possible ignorance.


I talked to a pet client a while back. She gave me her resume of years of owning dogs, and her complaints of not being able to get them to do what they want. Then I gave her some suggestions to get her where she wanted to be for her current dog. Then she gave me her resume again, telling me she understood what her dog needed. 

Then I asked her if she thought eating for 42 years qualified her to be a chef. 

We made some headway after that. I think you and I need to come to that point. Once you realize you have no experience in an area (protection/police work), as I will clearly state about hog hunting (I HAVE NO EXPERIENCE HOG HUNTING). Watching dogs bark at people and chase them, etc in their yard doesn't qualify you to train these behaviors. Apples and oranges. This is where drives and social behaviors come into play a LOT Don. My offer still stands. Send me a pup.


----------



## Joby Becker

Dogs are bred for different functions. No one I know is breeding Mals to take on large game. Dogs bred to fight large game, and fight people are NOT one in the same. How many dogs that are great on hogs are out there that do not have a desire to fight humans? the answer is TONS...this also includes most game bred dogs, who will fight other dogs, or large animals, but not people...to compare a large animal and a person in regards to how a dog views it, as being similar is retarded in my opinion.

Here is some more terminology to muddy the waters...the German Perspective...From Helmut Raiser...written by Armin Winkler.

_"The type of aggression that is talked about when the term sharpness is used seems to vary depending on the designed use of the dog. For example, in big game hunting dogs and terriers it refers particularly to the intensity and attitude with which these hunting dogs kill their respective prey. It is not prey drive as such; it is the actual killing response that is assessed. I have heard the term "gameness" used in the US in a similar context. For the large game hunting dogs the word used is "Wildschärfe," which translates as game sharpness. This assessment is made best when observing how the dog deals with wild boars. Because of the "bringing down" requirement in this type of hunting many of the dogs of these breeds use physical dominance techniques. For terriers the term is "Raubzeugschärfe," which translates as small predator sharpness. Terriers are used to hunt and kill small predators such as martens, foxes, badgers, etc. It is no easy feat to kill these predators without suffering injury. So a particularly fast and furious shaking technique is very common, as is a chomping bite behavior. These types of sharpness categorize the dog's prey drive.

Now to the term that we should be most interested in for our service dogs. The term used here is "Mannschärfe," which translates into man sharpness. The definition of this quality states the following. *The quality in the dog that leads him to actively confront any apparent (or feigned) or actual threat from a person in a hostile manner*...."_


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## Joby Becker

Sandra King said:


> My dog is a prey monster as well *but* if you toss a sleeve in one direction and have the helper run the other way... you bet she's going after the sleeve and I have no issue admitting it.


I dont get what you are saying here, that is the exact behavior one would expect from a "prey monster". At least one that views the equipment as his prey...


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## Don Turnipseed

Damned Dave, you get hung up on things...."Like yelling at the pup(not dog)." That is how the parents communicate to the pups they are serious and they better take it seriously. I should get out of mu fish bowl? Dave, the old saying "Some people can't see the forest for the trees" was made to order for you. You want to see a tree, you got to,open your eyes and realize that is what you are looking at. You just don't know what a tree looks like. Got to micro analyze everything so you can understand it. Analyze away because most bite trained dogs have never had a live bite so forget about your equatioin that ='s fact. Your just shooting in the dark like most of us. Lot of wishfull thinking. I'll bet most live bites by trained dogs are also done by the same dogs a lot of times. 

At any rate, we have all been down this road too many times and I got things to do. New GF you know. =P~ =P~


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## Sandra King

Joby Becker said:


> I dont get what you are saying here, that is the exact behavior one would expect from a "prey monster". At least one that views the equipment as his prey...


please remember that I am not a native speaker... there wasn't anything what I was trying to say other than that she's a prey monster...should have used and instead of but.


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## maggie fraser

Don Turnipseed said:


> Damned Dave, you get hung up on things...."Like yelling at the pup(not dog)." That is how the parents communicate to the pups they are serious and they better take it seriously. I should get out of mu fish bowl? Dave, the old saying "Some people can't see the forest for the trees" was made to order for you. You want to see a tree, you got to,open your eyes and realize that is what you are looking at. You just don't know what a tree looks like. Got to micro analyze everything so you can understand it. Analyze away because most bite trained dogs have never had a live bite so forget about your equatioin that ='s fact. Your just shooting in the dark like most of us. Lot of wishfull thinking. I'll bet most live bites by trained dogs are also done by the same dogs a lot of times.
> 
> At any rate, we have all been down this road too many times and I got things to do. New GF you know. =P~ =P~


News flash Don, you're slipping...and fast :wink:. What a heap of utter bullshit !!


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## Don Turnipseed

Like you would have a clue Maggie. Let me spell it out so just about anyone can understand it. Dave says all dogs have the same drives. That is BS. There are dogs that all the train9ng in the world isn't goint to put a drive into. 
Now here is the trees that Dave can't see because of the forest. Big gakme dogs lijke all big game. True or false. It is false. Thius the designation "cat dogs, bear dogs, hog dogs". There are a lot of cat dogs that woin't look at a bear, lots of bear dogs that could care less about a cat, same goes for hog dogs. No matter how much training hunters put into these dogs, they are not going to change them. You want a dog for cats, you buy from someone that breeds cat dogs and so on. It isn't that hard of a concept Dave. So now we have dogs that bite people, dogs that preferr bears, dogs that preferr cats, dogs that preferr hogs, dogs that preferr squrrel and the list is endless. Youy don't have a drive for each, they all got drive, just each has a different preference. I have never heard a real dogman say, this dog got bear drive, or cat drive, hog drive or any of that.They recognize a good dog when they see it. They don't break it down into microscopic pieces and and get wiggy over the puzzel they have created. That is the domain of trainers. I don't deny some dogs chase balls, some don't....but it isn't a drive...just a something the dog preferrs over another thing. You want a dog to bite people..... get one from a proven line....you want one to chase cats, get one from a cat hunter. Dogs have been bred with preferences for a reason....because we all want something different out of them.


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## Jim Delbridge

My 80 y/o mother bowls in four leagues during the year. She has a VERY unusual approach where she narly turns both feet to the side and lowers herself to where her hips are almost even with her knees as she lines up for her throw. She does (at times) have issue with flatulence such that it might seem that a little retro rocket is helping her rise back up before she starts her throw. It is a sight that many old men line up to observe in wonder.

I do love my mother. I got my sense of humor from her. it's vewwy scawy.


Jim


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## Peter Cavallaro

Dave not sure where you are going with yr argument; to push it a bit further we would not have ended up with different specialist breeds we would just have "dogs" - seems obvious that different breeds are going to be better naturally at different things on average??


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## Jim Delbridge

I guess I should have quoted that as you are all back to arguing.

Don, ummmmmm, bellowing works very well for Airedales...it does. I understand exactly what you mean.

Ummmmm, it doesn't work for all breeds. Some breeds I never say a work but simply pinch hard on a rear flank to correct as that's what their sire would do. Some I nip on the ear. With my wolfdog, I had to chuff and look at him (in the eyes) just the right way.

It's the humans screwing with so many breeds. They've completely muddied the commuinication systems for canines with all this selective breeding. What's a dog handler to do?


Jim


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## Dave Colborn

Don Turnipseed said:


> Like you would have a clue Maggie. Let me spell it out so just about anyone can understand it. Dave says all dogs have the same drives.


Don.

I am not sure what your agenda is other than talking. Yes I said that. Everything they have falls under prey drive, defense drive or social behaviors. What is your point?

Maggie, if you could articulate Don's bullshit, that would be great.




> At any rate, we have all been down this road too many times and I got things to do.


Don. This is where people go when they can't support their argument. You are here, you should stay here and be at home with yourself.


Pete, I am not even sure what the argument is, or was. Don says something I refute it. He ignores what I say, goes in a different direction to shake everyone, tells a majority what reality is, no matter what the truth is, rinse and repeat.

I would relish a question. A chance to answer, and then hear Don's side. It just doesn't seem to happen.


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## Sara Waters

Dave Colborn said:


> Don.
> 
> I would relish a question. A chance to answer, and then hear Don's side. It just doesn't seem to happen.


Dave 

For me the original comment from you was that most of us have never truly trained and dealt with the type of drive required by a dog that you train for police work and personal protection.

I have never trained one of these obviously but I have trained dogs with very high "drive" and am not sure where you are coming from. My experience has been mainly with working sheepdogs in a farm setting and also ACDS. They are generally tough high "drive" dogs with high work ethics and an ACD with a very strong defence of me drive and prey drive with real intentions to bite the person or kill the roo, not just chase.

I would have thought it didnt matter if these working dogs were trained on people, sheep or cattle or feral pigs, roos or whatever, high drive is still high drive regardless of what it is directed towards.

Are you saying that dogs that can be trained to attack people are in a different class as far as drive is concerned? Or that special skills as a trainer are required to train these dogs. Are these dogs born with this attribute? I know pet dogs that would bite an intruder, is this different?


----------



## Dave Colborn

Sara Said


> Dave
> 
> For me the original comment from you was that most of us have never truly trained and dealt with the type of drive required by a dog that you train for police work and personal protection.


I never made this comment. Please re-read and you'll see that was directed at Don, and not what I said at all. YOu may have trained drivier dogs than me Sara. How could I possibly know what you've trained?



> I have never trained one of these obviously but I have trained dogs with very high "drive" and am not sure where you are coming from. My experience has been mainly with working sheepdogs in a farm setting and also ACDS. They are generally tough high "drive" dogs with high work ethics and an ACD with a very strong defence of me drive and prey drive with real intentions to bite the person or kill the roo, not just chase.
> 
> I would have thought it didnt matter if these working dogs were trained on people, sheep or cattle or feral pigs, roos or whatever, high drive is still high drive regardless of what it is directed towards.
> 
> Are you saying that dogs that can be trained to attack people are in a different class as far as drive is concerned? Or that special skills as a trainer are required to train these dogs. Are these dogs born with this attribute? I know pet dogs that would bite an intruder, is this different?


I agree. High drive is high drive. Doesn't matter the discipline.

Yes, special skills are needed to train a dog to attack people. Just as special skills are needed for dock diving, herding or any other discipline. I mean this without sarcasm. It is just another discipline. Not brain surgery. 

Yes, the dogs that bite are born with the inherent ability to do the work. THere are dogs that just cant do it, as well as dogs that are taught not to do it, either intentionally, or not. Then there are dogs that can't do it anywhere but specific areas. I am sure you have seen dogs that just can't herd. It is a fact. They are born like that or trained to not be able to do the work.

How do you know the pet dogs you mention would bite an intruder? I believe some will, but how do you know?


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## Don Turnipseed

Dave, yopu keep accusing me of dancing around. It is yu that is dancing,,,,you just don't know it' You said I don't work with dog with drives like yopu require for manwork. Heck no, I need more drive than what you require and chasing a ball justm won['t cut it. Now, You also startd off telling me hunting big game is natural for a dog. After a statement that lame, there is just no point in really trying to explain anything past that. It is natural for wild canines to catch and eat animals to live. We are well -past that because few domestic dogs eat their prey when caught. To take it further. It is about as natural for one or two dogs to hunt large predators as it is for them to bite a person. Until you have a better grasp on what is natural for a dog to do, there is just no point in me wasting my time trying to explain it. Others may benefit. but, been there and done that several times here....and you still believe it is natural for domestic dogs to hunt and fight the large predators. You just can't see a tree because the whole darned foreest is blocking your view. And you want to discuss drives and what comes natural.....just no point to it. Sorry.


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## Dave Colborn

Don Turnipseed said:


> Dave, yopu keep accusing me of dancing around. It is yu that is dancing,,,,you just don't know it' You said I don't work with dog with drives like yopu require for manwork. Heck no, I need more drive than what you require and chasing a ball justm won['t cut it. Now, You also startd off telling me hunting big game is natural for a dog. After a statement that lame, there is just no point in really trying to explain anything past that. It is natural for wild canines to catch and eat animals to live. We are well -past that because few domestic dogs eat their prey when caught. To take it further. It is about as natural for one or two dogs to hunt large predators as it is for them to bite a person. Until you have a better grasp on what is natural for a dog to do, there is just no point in me wasting my time trying to explain it. Others may benefit. but, been there and done that several times here....and you still believe it is natural for domestic dogs to hunt and fight the large predators. You just can't see a tree because the whole darned foreest is blocking your view. And you want to discuss drives and what comes natural.....just no point to it. Sorry.



Don. Ask a question. Then let's debate it. Instead of what's going on. I refute what you say, then we are somewhere else.


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## Connie Sutherland

QUOTE: _"I know pet dogs that would bite an intruder ...."
_

How do you know? This is not a confrontational attack; it's a question, if it's not too off topic.

Dave's question was_ "How do you know the pet dogs you mention would bite an intruder? I believe some will, but how do you know?"_


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## Don Turnipseed

Don't have anything to ask you Dave.


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## Don Turnipseed

Connie Sutherland said:


> QUOTE: _"I know pet dogs that would bite an intruder ...."
> _
> 
> How do you know? This is not a confrontational attack; it's a question, if it's not too off topic.
> 
> Dave's question was_ "How do you know the pet dogs you mention would bite an intruder? I believe some will, but how do you know?"_


Because the pounds and rescues are full of dogs that have bit people.


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## Joby Becker

Don Turnipseed said:


> Because the pounds and rescues are full of dogs that have bit people.


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## Dave Colborn

Connie. 

Thanks. Useful discussion.

Don thanks for showing up for this one in rare form as usual. 

Why the hell would a dog be put in the pound for biting an intruder???

Also, where do you get your stats on how many dogs are in pounds? and how many there are there for biting? No anecdotal information Mr. Turnipseed.

This is about you not understanding questions. Not bad discussion on my part.


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## Connie Sutherland

Don Turnipseed said:


> Because the pounds and rescues are full of dogs that have bit people.


But that wasn't the question. The question was "How do you know the dog would bite _an intruder_?"

My shelter experience (pretty extensive) is not of dogs who are there for biting the intruder (if they are there for biting anyone, which is pretty low on the list of reasons, IME).

And the original quote was not "has bitten someone and was then surrendered to the shelter." It was "would bite an intruder."


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## Peter Cavallaro

Dave Colborn said:


> Don.
> 
> 
> 
> Pete, I am not even sure what the argument is, or was.
> 
> Dave am not sure either anymore this thread is getting disjointed.
> 
> 
> I would relish a question. A chance to answer, and then hear Don's side. It just doesn't seem to happen.


 
wish granted; tell me why you think the dog in the following pic which is purposebred large game killing machine representatative of his line has zero ball drive, zero drive for tug, very docile and mainly sleeps when not working and is virtually incapable of any form of civil agression - is it breeding, training, genetecics, early socialisation what. i agree that most dogs will display a variety of behaviours as u mentioned with a mal out hunting, i doubt seriously the latest sport/PSD dog superstar will even put in a mediocre performance compared to this dog and visey-versy.


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## Don Turnipseed

Or an easy one. How is your boxer doing?


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## Jim Nash

Just a little perspective . As a police officer I find myself on other peoples' property . I have confronted probably over a hundred dogs in my 20 years , as I entered homes on fresh burglaries , alarms , open doors , in their backyards , you name it . I've had some bluff charge , bark and others just high tail it and run . None have bitten me . Most dogs don't have it in them , self preservation is telling these particular dogs retreating is the best option . 

Also the comment was made that nowadays if a dog bites someone it will make the news . True but usually only if it is an extremely bad bite , an unusual situation or a slow news day . I have written dozens of Dog Bite Reports , some minor and others severe . None made the news . Also none of those bites that I can think of were from a dog on an intruder . Just my perspective .


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## Dave Colborn

Don Turnipseed said:


> Or an easy one. How is your boxer doing?


He is doing well, Don. Thanks for asking. He is looking for a dale buddy though.


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## Connie Sutherland

Is this somehow related to the thread?


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## Dave Colborn

Peter Cavallaro said:


> wish granted; tell me why you think the dog in the following pic which is purposebred large game killing machine representatative of his line has zero ball drive, zero drive for tug, very docile and mainly sleeps when not working and is virtually incapable of any form of civil agression - is it breeding, training, genetecics, early socialisation what. i agree that most dogs will display a variety of behaviours as u mentioned with a mal out hunting, i doubt seriously the latest sport/PSD dog superstar will even put in a mediocre performance compared to this dog and visey-versy.



Pete. I am going to ask a couple of questions and give you an answer, without seeing him.

What job does he do and how successful is he or she?

How do you know the dog has no drive for a tug or a ball?

On the civil aggression, does nothing scare him or her? Non classical Prey dog possibly? He doesn't react to threat, as he doesn't see any?

I would guess it has to do with early training and genetics. That says it all really, there isn't much else that affects them, if you consider the environment as part of their training. But I would take both into account, and place equal value on both. If he was started doing bitework early, maybe he would be a great sport dog. Conversely, he might suck. As far as exhibiting no typical drive (prey or defense) he may only be stimulated by the real thing now. Dog gets to pick his reward. Sometimes our poor attempts to bring drive out are laughable (no bust on you) to a dog that has real bites/kills on prey. 

That's my short guess.


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## Sara Waters

Connie Sutherland said:


> QUOTE: _"I know pet dogs that would bite an intruder ...."_
> 
> 
> How do you know? This is not a confrontational attack; it's a question, if it's not too off topic.
> 
> Dave's question was_ "How do you know the pet dogs you mention would bite an intruder? I believe some will, but how do you know?"_


 
How do I know? Because I have a friend whose dog did just that! Guy came in through an open window at night and her ACD mix nailed him. He went back out but there was blood dripping everywhere


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## Sara Waters

Jim Nash said:


> Just a little perspective . As a police officer I find myself on other peoples' property . I have confronted probably over a hundred dogs in my 20 years , as I entered homes on fresh burglaries , alarms , open doors , in their backyards , you name it . I've had some bluff charge , bark and others just high tail it and run . None have bitten me . Most dogs don't have it in them , self preservation is telling these particular dogs retreating is the best option .
> 
> Also the comment was made that nowadays if a dog bites someone it will make the news . True but usually only if it is an extremely bad bite , an unusual situation or a slow news day . I have written dozens of Dog Bite Reports , some minor and others severe . None made the news . Also none of those bites that I can think of were from a dog on an intruder . Just my perspective .


 
I am sure you are right for the majority of dogs. Just personal experience with a couple of friends dogs that I know would bite mainly because they have bitten people entering the property or bitten when someone has entered their car or remote camp site - where we had to take the person for a 2 hour drive to the nearest hospital..


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## Joby Becker

It is a very low percentage of dogs that will bite someone period. Even dogs that are trained to bite often do not bite.

As far as your dog Peter, I have worked a lot of similar type dogs, and you might be surprised by him, if given the correct "stimulation". Sounds like a nice confident dog that has been raised in a manner that he does not see a threat in people whatsoever....and a good dog...


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## Sara Waters

Dave Colborn said:


> Sara Said
> 
> I never made this comment. Please re-read and you'll see that was directed at Don, and not what I said at all. YOu may have trained drivier dogs than me Sara. How could I possibly know what you've trained?
> 
> I agree. High drive is high drive. Doesn't matter the discipline.
> 
> Yes, special skills are needed to train a dog to attack people. Just as special skills are needed for dock diving, herding or any other discipline. I mean this without sarcasm. It is just another discipline. Not brain surgery.
> 
> Yes, the dogs that bite are born with the inherent ability to do the work. THere are dogs that just cant do it, as well as dogs that are taught not to do it, either intentionally, or not. Then there are dogs that can't do it anywhere but specific areas. I am sure you have seen dogs that just can't herd. It is a fact. They are born like that or trained to not be able to do the work.
> 
> How do you know the pet dogs you mention would bite an intruder? I believe some will, but how do you know?


Okay, I took your comment to Don to be all encompassing of all dogs other than police and personal protection dogs. LOL.


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Sara Waters said:


> I am sure you are right for the majority of dogs. Just personal experience with a couple of friends dogs that I know would bite mainly because they have bitten people entering the property or bitten when someone has entered their car or remote camp site - where we had to take the person for a 2 hour drive to the nearest hospital..


Betcha those dogs are not languishing in a shelter now. 


I'm just teasing, Don. I do have many years' of shelter experience, and I haven't yet seen "bit intruder" as a surrender reason.

(Of course, that's strictly anecdotal. But stats compiled by shelter intake back that up. Lack of basic house manners training (including house-breaking) and "moving" are far and away the top two. And I personally believe that a lot of the people who say they are "moving and can't take the dog" are saying that to hide the fact that they have never bothered to socialize or train the cute puppy who is now an inconvenient adult with inconvenient needs to defecate and urinate.)

Lack of funds to feed and care for the dog is creeping up the list.

Biting (intruder or anyone else) doesn't even make the short list.

JME!


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## Sara Waters

Joby Becker said:


> It is a very low percentage of dogs that will bite someone period. Even dogs that are trained to bite often do not bite.
> 
> .


I know a few small dogs that will bite if you put your hand near then LOL. A survey was done a few years ago to look at the reason for dumping dogs and one of the main ones was aggression, this included all types of aggression so difficult to sort out which was human related.
Interestingly enough the dog with the highest dumpage rate for aggression was the maltese terrier, followed by the ACD.


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## Joby Becker

Sara Waters said:


> I know a few small dogs that will bite if you put your hand near then LOL. A survey was done a few years ago to look at the reason for dumping dogs and one of the main ones was aggression, this included all types of aggression so difficult to sort out which was human related.
> Interestingly enough the dog with the highest dumpage rate for aggression was the maltese terrier, followed by the ACD.


Yeah I see the error of my posting..LOL I meant dogs that will bite and fight someone..such as an intruder. I just got bitten in the hand by a bichon not too long ago, for trying to grab it when it was in my yard.


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## Sara Waters

Connie Sutherland said:


> Betcha those dogs are not languishing in a shelter now.
> 
> 
> JME!


No but the agreement was that one of them now wears a muzzle when in a camp site!

I do know a few dogs that have bitten the postman!


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## Don Turnipseed

Joby Becker said:


> Yeah I see the error of my posting..LOL I meant dogs that will bite and fight someone..such as an intruder. I just got bitten in the hand by a bichon not too long ago, for trying to grab it when it was in my yard.


If the dog bit you in your yard, think what he would do in his. LOL


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

QUOTE=Dave Colborn;288408]Pete.

*I am going to ask a couple of questions and give you an answer*, 
firstly that particular dog is deceased, so will answer based on the pure line he is part from established in the 70's and bred true ever since.

*without seeing him.*
did you at least look at the pic?

*What job does he do and how successful is he or she?*

catch dog, very successful, does work more from sight as we have specialised scent dogs to alert from back of vehicle, long range, very high top speed and endurance, will bite to kill hogs, deer, wild dogs. basically have to be physically removed from prey item with a wedge in their jaws, don't wont to get to blood details but these dogs will die from mortal wounds while on the bite, good thing to cause if they lost their grip a man would die.

*How do you know the dog has no drive for a tug or a ball?* haven't tested every dog that lives but typically will play tug like an average pet but lose interest fairly quick and won't do reps with obedience - know because i have tested many.

*On the civil aggression, does nothing scare him or her*? 

dog/s has rock solid nerves, a burgular can step over him freely and rob the place and he would come up and get a pat, even jump in truck with bad guy. rarely bark at strangers or even alerts or looks twice. environmentally rock solid best words are placid and docile even lazy around house.

*Non classical Prey dog possibly?* don't know what that means 

*He doesn't react to threat, as he doesn't see any?* can't say i have ever known them to be formally agitated, just noone who owns them is interested in that stuff.

I would guess it has to do with early training and genetics. That says it all really, there isn't much else that affects them, if you consider the environment as part of their training. But I would take both into account, and place equal value on both. If he was started doing bitework early, maybe he would be a great sport dog. Conversely, he might suck. As far as exhibiting no typical drive (prey or defense) he may only be stimulated by the real thing now. Dog gets to pick his reward. Sometimes our poor attempts to bring drive out are laughable (no bust on you) to a dog that has real bites/kills on prey. 

That's my short guess.[/QUOTE]


i just find this question interesting thanks for your take on it. BTW any dogs of this sort showing natural agression toward humans or other pack dogs would have been shot early on


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## Don Turnipseed

We don't see a lot of dog bites here. Mainly because those male Queenslans that people keep in the back of their truck have taught everyone that "All" dogs really don't like them. I haven't seen a lot of the male queenslands that wouldn't bite. Incourageable little dogs.

I had a custmer here once that pointed a big male, Bond, out and told me he didn't want a dog that was afraid of people like that one. I walked him over the fence where the dog was and made sure he was close to it. I told him to scream at the dog and stomp his feet and told him to give it hell. That dog, Bond, who was slinking away with his tail between his legs, wheeled around and hit that fence so fast it scared the poor guy half to death. What scared me is he had his head through one of the squares of the fence and almost got the guy. Dog had been on 200 300 lb hogs since he was 9 mo old. Just didn't cotton to people at all.....myself included.


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## Jim Nash

My first K9 Mic(GSD) couldn't care less about toys but he would chase a badguy or decoy , rabit , squirrel , cat or any critter to the ends of the earth . Killed alot of stuff . He was great at hunting suspects but it was a pain in the butt training him on drugs or article searches . He was the exception to the rule though .

By the way did I mention I had pizza for dinner lastnight ?


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## Don Turnipseed

Dave Colborn said:


> He is doing well, Don. Thanks for asking. He is looking for a dale buddy though.


I am still waiting for Griff on that one Dave. It would really be interesting to see what you can do with one of these guys as far as bitework.


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## Peter Cavallaro

Dave i think u mentioned boxers on hogs? quitecommon around here to add boxer. BTW please add feral bulls in my previous post re what job does dog do.


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## Dave Colborn

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Dave i think u mentioned boxers on hogs? quitecommon around here to add boxer. BTW please add feral bulls in my previous post re what job does dog do.


Pete. 

I agree with Joby's post, #215. I think with proper stimulation you could get a sport dog, or personal protection dog out of the dogs you are talking about. 

I also believe there are mals out there, that would work a hog as well as a bulldog. Anyone on here ever seen one???


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## Joby Becker

Dave Colborn said:


> I also believe there are mals out there, that would work a hog as well as a bulldog. Anyone on here ever seen one???


I got my feelers out...LOL 

Most I heard so far is *one* mal that was super gung ho, got tossed a little and cried his way back to the truck, to the point of quote, "you couldn't melt the dog down and pour it on another hog"...


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## Don Turnipseed

Dave Colborn said:


> Pete.
> 
> I agree with Joby's post, #215. I think with proper stimulation you could get a sport dog, or personal protection dog out of the dogs you are talking about.
> 
> I also believe there are mals out there, that would work a hog as well as a bulldog. Anyone on here ever seen one???


Dave, if anyone has ever seen one is a moot point. A few here and there do not make it the norm for the breed. When it comes to dogs that are bred for the job, people use them. The dog Joby mentioned is one of the reasons. Dogs that do this have an uncanny pain tolerance. My dog Jack, that I lost a few months back, walked up a fight of stairs and climbed up on the bed to lay next to me. I could see the distress he was in and took him straight to the vets. He got down from the bed, came down the flight of stairs, walked the 40 yards up to the truck and got in the truck. Took 30 minutes to get to the vet where he got out of the truck, walked in the office and sat next to me. The vet came right out and walked him to the scale and took him in to be exrayed. He rolled over and died within 4 minutes of them taking him in. He did all this without a wimper but was having a hard time breathing because his stomach had slid into his chest cavity because his diapham had ruptured. He was on his feet even though he was within minutes of dying. That is breeding and heart.


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## maggie fraser

Don Turnipseed said:


> Dave, if anyone has ever seen one is a moot point. A few here and there do not make it the norm for the breed. When it comes to dogs that are bred for the job, people use them.


You mean like airedales in sport like shutzhund, ring sport, personal protection, working trials, detection etc. Many of the venues the good folks on here participate in ? 

Did you hear Jim had pizza for dinner the other night ? I believe he may also have a date in the offing too !


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## Joby Becker

maggie fraser said:


> You mean like airedales in sport like shutzhund, ring sport, personal protection, working trials, detection etc. Many of the venues the good folks on here participate in ?
> 
> Did you hear Jim had pizza for dinner the other night ? I believe he may also have a date in the offing too !


Dont get him going on how serious the dales are Maggie....


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## maggie fraser

Joby Becker said:


> Dont get him going on how serious the dales are Maggie....


Well...dales are bred for the job ain't they ? That's why you don't see hardly anyone using them 'cos it's a moot point !


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## Don Turnipseed

maggie fraser said:


> You mean like airedales in sport like shutzhund, ring sport, personal protection, working trials, detection etc. Many of the venues the good folks on here participate in ?
> 
> Did you hear Jim had pizza for dinner the other night ? I believe he may also have a date in the offing too !


Wow! You never cease to amaze me Maggie. You actually understood what I was saying even as simple as it was. 

Jim have a date in the offing would be on par to you having one in the offing Maggie.


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## Jim Nash

I've never seen a Dale doing PSD work or any work for that matter . Last few pictures I've seen of them they all looked scared shitless . I'm having Chinese tonite .


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## maggie fraser

Don Turnipseed said:


> Wow! You never cease to amaze me Maggie. You actually understood what I was saying even as simple as it was.
> 
> Jim have a date in the offing would be on par to you having one in the offing Maggie.


That's 'cos I'm an amazing kind of person Don.....full of surprises :wink:. I'll even take you further on that sky ride....define Moot !

Jim, what Chinese did you have ? I had Indian, it was fab..


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## Doug Zaga

maggie fraser said:


> That's 'cos I'm an amazing kind of person Don.....full of surprises :wink:. I'll even take you further on that sky ride......


Damn... Gerry is gone not even 1 week and you already moved on!


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## maggie fraser

Doug Zaga said:


> Damn... Gerry is gone not even 1 week and you already moved on!


If I respond to you, I will be accused of going off topic and derailing the thread from airedales who snort fire from their nose and bolts of lightening from their arse.


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## Doug Zaga

maggie fraser said:


> If I respond to you, I will be accused of going off topic and derailing the thread from airedales who snort fire from their nose and bolts of lightening from their arse.


A Natural Correction???

fire breathing airdale ?


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## maggie fraser

Doug Zaga said:


> A Natural Correction???
> 
> fire breathing airdale ?


Yeah !! You not understanding Don either ? Must be catching !


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## Don Turnipseed

LMAO. Maggie I gave you too much credit. I don't think Doug is wondering what was being said about dogs being bred for different things. Fairly remedial stuff for most people. I think the question mark had to do with where you came up with all this drivel your going on about. I may be wrong though.


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## Sandra King

Sometimes it's really hard to figure out if you are actually just joking with each other or if you guys are seriously insulting each other...


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## Sara Waters

Sandra King said:


> Sometimes it's really hard to figure out if you are actually just joking with each other or if you guys are seriously insulting each other...


I'd go with a touch of both but I wouldnt lose any sleep over it. LOL


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## maggie fraser

Sandra King said:


> Sometimes it's really hard to figure out if you are actually just joking with each other or if you guys are seriously insulting each other...


Nah, no serious insulting coming from this end...at least not yet. :smile:


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## Peter Cavallaro

Sandra King said:


> Sometimes it's really hard to figure out if you are actually just joking with each other *or if you guys are seriously insulting each other*...


 
never happen on the WDF


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## Connie Sutherland

Peter Cavallaro said:


> never happen on the WDF


Never. Not in all the board's 5 1/2 years.


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## Peter Cavallaro

connie sutherland said:


> never. Not in all the board's 5 1/2 years.


 
:-\" :-d


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