# Airedale question



## catherine hardigan (Oct 12, 2009)

I know there are some terrier gurus on this forum so maybe you all could offer a little help.

I fox hunt occasionally with a huntclub that is looking to breed hounds with broken/terrier type coats. They would like to acquire a couple dogs with this type of fur to use both as active members of the pack and for breeding.

The dogs are hunted November through April, and are hunted alongside large groups of riders on horseback. They must be able to run out ahead of a field of galloping horses, get over or through obstacles that can be large, and withstand the cold and wet for the duration of the hunt. 

Dog aggression is not tolerated, and any dog that intentionally injures or goes after a horse or member of the hunt is put down. 

At this point they are looking at either acquiring a couple airedales or importing some Welsh foxhounds. Obviously, importing dogs is more expensive, and if airedales are capable of doing what is required then I think the club may go with the terriers... especially if decent dogs can be found here. Have dales ever been used for this type of hunting, or could they be?


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Talk to Don Turnipseed, he is a member here.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

catherine hardigan said:


> I know there are some terrier gurus on this forum so maybe you all could offer a little help.
> 
> I fox hunt occasionally with a huntclub that is looking to breed hounds with broken/terrier type coats. They would like to acquire a couple dogs with this type of fur to use both as active members of the pack and for breeding.
> 
> ...


Cathrine, first off, inporting the "right" dogs is usually far cheaper than buying the wrong dogs in the long run. Much of what you will tolerate, such as going after a horse, is on the purshaser of the pup. They either train them or they don't. You can't just go buy an Airedale and think it is going to fit all the all stories told about them 100 years ago. They aren't even close. If you get an airedale that fits the standard, they can't run, they are quick, but quick just covers a little ground as long as there are no big obstacles. My dogs are fast and can cover a lt of ground but, it took years of breeding. Obviusly, the field of galloping horses aren't moving at a "full gallop because horses are faster than dogs. Fox hounds I have seen are very leggy. My dogs are leggy. Airedales have short legs.


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## catherine hardigan (Oct 12, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Cathrine, first off, inporting the "right" dogs is usually far cheaper than buying the wrong dogs in the long run. Much of what you will tolerate, such as going after a horse, is on the purshaser of the pup. They either train them or they don't. You can't just go buy an Airedale and think it is going to fit all the all stories told about them 100 years ago. They aren't even close. If you get an airedale that fits the standard, they can't run, they are quick, but quick just covers a little ground as long as there are no big obstacles. My dogs are fast and can cover a lt of ground but, it took years of breeding. Obviusly, the field of galloping horses aren't moving at a "full gallop because horses are faster than dogs. Fox hounds I have seen are very leggy. My dogs are leggy. Airedales have short legs.


I see. I'm not sure if the club plans to breed its own line of dogs or if they would do some sort of hound/dale hybrid. Not all hounds used for fox hunting have super leggy proportions. There is at least one club that uses bloodhounds.

Probably the most important physical requirements for the dogs are the ability to keep up with the horses, the endurance to do it for 2 to 6 hours once or twice per week, the nose to keep on a trail, and good cold tolerance. There are some other training things but I don't think and airedale would to a big problem with those.

Quickness is not really an asset. The dogs need to be able to keep pace in situations like this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dAKve7ILvI

and have the toughness to occasionally get through stuff like this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOggEvNrYtw&feature=related


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Oh yeh, the right dogs can keep that pace and get out of the water better than the horses were doing. You mentioned they might possibly be planning n breeding their own fox dogs. You need the right dog and the right coat, but, is there anyone in the club that knows anything about breeding...and th time involved?


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## catherine hardigan (Oct 12, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Oh yeh, the right dogs can keep that pace and get out of the water better than the horses were doing. You mentioned they might possibly be planning n breeding their own fox dogs. You need the right dog and the right coat, but, is there anyone in the club that knows anything about breeding...and th time involved?


Yes. The huntsman and whips know about breeding. In fact, many clubs breed their own dogs and there are several different lines of foxhounds. I'm sure they know nothing about breeding dales though.

If they end up going with Welsh foxhounds these dogs would have to be changed a bit too. The hunting countryside in Wales is super rugged and hilly so the dogs have a pretty powerful build, while a leggier dog is favored here in the states.

I'll direct the club powers that be to your site. Hopefully they'll be able to figure out what would work best given the pros and cons.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Catherine, I have heard many, times over, through the years, that fox hounds are non aggressive. It seems to me, since airedales originated basically in the part of the world where foxhunting was popular, the English would have used them if they were a suitable dog. Two different types of dogs with entirely in temperaments.


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## catherine hardigan (Oct 12, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Catherine, I have heard many, times over, through the years, that fox hounds are non aggressive. It seems to me, since airedales originated basically in the part of the world where foxhunting was popular, the English would have used them if they were a suitable dog. Two different types of dogs with entirely in temperaments.


Hmmm. I thought that part of it was economics and the other part was tradition. I'm not a hunting expert, but from what I've heard fox hunting is a deeply traditional sport in GB, so once they started with a certain breed nobody was going to ask any questions. Plus, weren't the big terriers sort of the poor man's all purpose hunting dog while the hounds were kept by the rich? 

Maybe aggression toward other dogs is just too hard to breed out once it's there. At times in England the dogs and horses have to be able to do stuff like this in public, although I'm unaware of anybody here who does anything even close.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qe54XooQIYM


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Your probably right about "tradition". with the hounds. When it comes to the terriers, they have been mixing and matching them forever. Unlike the hounds, airedales that hunt, hunt for the fight and the kill.


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## catherine hardigan (Oct 12, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Your probably right about "tradition". with the hounds. When it comes to the terriers, they have been mixing and matching them forever. Unlike the hounds, airedales that hunt, hunt for the fight and the kill.


I've never seen the hounds fight, but I've watched them kill foxes many times. That's one of the reasons the whippers-in carry whips. 

Sadly in GB it is now illegal to hunt with dogs. People there do what is called drag hunting. Basically, someone goes out and lays a track for the dogs to follow before the hunt begins. On the one hand the track is easier for the dogs to follow so the hunt is usually a lot more fast paced. I've heard of stretches during drag hunts where the dogs have been clocked at 20-25 mph. On the other, I worry that gene pool of dogs will lose some of their scenting ability.

Hopefully the same thing doesn't happen here in the U.S. I don't think it will.


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## Dan Spenser (Oct 29, 2010)

You might want to contact the Traditional Working Airedale group, there are several there that hunt Airedales with hounds on all sorts of game. It is a tall order for any breed of dog to stay with Foxhounds in a long race.

http://traditionalairedale.proboards.com/index.cgi?

Dan


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Dan Spenser said:


> You might want to contact the Traditional Working Airedale group, there are several there that hunt Airedales with hounds on all sorts of game. It is a tall order for any breed of dog to stay with Foxhounds in a long race.
> 
> http://traditionalairedale.proboards.com/index.cgi?
> 
> Dan


Yes contact the owner of the the traditional airedale board and tell him you got his name from Dan Spenser on the WDF and you will both be immediately banned. No questions asked. Just ask for Al. LMAO Generally they hunt dales with hounds because the dales can't do the job without the hounds. The dales are put in just for the fight. Please. just for thje fun of it, go to the link and tell Al you found his addy on a working dog forum. He will go balistic. LOL


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Yes contact the owner of the the traditional airedale board and tell him you got his name from Dan Spenser on the WDF and you will both be immediately banned. No questions asked. Just ask for Al. LMAO Generally they hunt dales with hounds because the dales can't do the job without the hounds. The dales are put in just for the fight. Please. just for thje fun of it, go to the link and tell Al you found his addy on a working dog forum. He will go balistic. LOL


I take it he does not like you?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Just an FYI
The Otter Hound is a hound/Airedaale cross.


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## catherine hardigan (Oct 12, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> Just an FYI
> The Otter Hound is a hound/Airedaale cross.


Good to know. I've never heard of an otter hound.


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## Sue Brown (May 11, 2011)

catherine hardigan said:


> Good to know. I've never heard of an otter hound.


My books and rescources tell me that Otterhounds are descended from the Griffon Nivernais, Foxhounds, Bloodhounds and possibly an un-named breed of rough-coated terrier. They can be traced back to the 13th Century, while the Airedale is a 19th Century creation - so there may be Otterhound in the Airedale, but not the other way around 

Otters have been protected here since the late 1970's, so the Otterhound packs have dwindled since then; the recent hunting with dogs ban hasn't affected their decline, they have been an endangered British native breed for several decades.

Some Otterhound packs found work hunting mink instead - which were released (not accidentally) from fur farms and have taken up residency in a lot of the UK to the detriment of the native otter. Not sure that's still allowed or not - vermin hunting with dogs on certain species IS still permitted for rats, rabbits etc. Most mink eradication involves trapping now. 

Where I live, I see plenty of mink, but still live on hope of seeing an otter one day, although it's prime country for otters they have all but disappeared. Nearest I came to one is when my dog rolled in otter poop last year..... doesn't smell like you'd imagine, in fact it's fragrant like new-mown hay with just a hint of fish. I was so amazed I'd got _that_ close to an otter I let him wear it long as he wanted


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> Just an FYI
> The Otter Hound is a hound/Airedaale cross.


 The Airedale is a otterhound welsh terrier cross. The Otterhound is decended from bloodhound from my understanding.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

They don't know what all is in the airedale. Otterhound is one, the old bull and terrier is another they like to mention these days. One thing they don't like to see mentioned is the bull terriers even though they were mentioned in the old books. They got the flat pionted head shape somewhere. They got the jaw strength somewhere. Even though they are very long jawed, they are way past other long jawed dogs such as the GSD's and real close to the rotties. Today's airedale fanciers don't want this brought up and prefer to have people think they are parlor dogs and don't really care if they are misrepresented or not. Seriously, they used to hunt baboons with them. That just doesn't sound like a parlor dog to me. LOL Hogs throw my dogs 8' in the air and 10' back in the brush and all it really does piss them off. I have posted pictures of the with gutted porcupines. Quills or not, they gut them and pull their heads off. They are not ment to be parlor dogs, but, that is the power of breeding because that is what most are. This might work for Catherine and hunting foxes but, like other dogs bred today, most are not representative of what the breed was supposed to be.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> They don't know what all is in the airedale. Otterhound is one, the old bull and terrier is another they like to mention these days. One thing they don't like to see mentioned is the bull terriers even though they were mentioned in the old books. They got the flat pionted head shape somewhere. They got the jaw strength somewhere. Even though they are very long jawed, they are way past other long jawed dogs such as the GSD's and real close to the rotties. Today's airedale fanciers don't want this brought up and prefer to have people think they are parlor dogs and don't really care if they are misrepresented or not. Seriously, they used to hunt baboons with them. That just doesn't sound like a parlor dog to me. LOL Hogs throw my dogs 8' in the air and 10' back in the brush and all it really does piss them off. I have posted pictures of the with gutted porcupines. Quills or not, they gut them and pull their heads off. They are not ment to be parlor dogs, but, that is the power of breeding because that is what most are. This might work for Catherine and hunting foxes but, like other dogs bred today, most are not representative of what the breed was supposed to be.


One thing is for sure people like to invent new breeds of dogs. Look at all the terrier breeds that have existed in the past 300 years.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

The Welsh is "thought" to be what is referred to as the old black and tan terrier in many of the books and stories. 
The old black and tan terriers is possible the ancestor to many of the different terriers.


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

Catherine what problem are they trying to solve? Is this mainly a coat issue and their current dogs getting injured in harsh terrain?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Bob, where do the lakelands fit in here. Which was around first, the Lakelands or the Welsh? Both look much like minerature airedales.


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## catherine hardigan (Oct 12, 2009)

Marta Haus said:


> Catherine what problem are they trying to solve? Is this mainly a coat issue and their current dogs getting injured in harsh terrain?


The dogs live out in kennels all year and the season lasts from November through April. I think they feel that dogs with broken coats would have an easier time in the cold and wet.

Here are some pictures of Welsh hounds.

http://www.thehuntinglife.com/forums/topic/137976-welsh-hounds/page__st__15

My understanding is that the Welsh foxhound is not a recognized breed even though they have been around for over 1000 years. Supposedly they have a beautiful voice, and have the best nose of all the foxhounds- especially on cold trails.

The down side (apart from having to import them) is that they tend to be more independent as a pack than other foxhounds. The areas they hunt in Wales are mountainous, craggy, boggy, and generally difficult to ride on horseback or follow on foot. Therefore, the hounds as a pack are much more used to making their own decisions and not always following the guidance of the huntsman.

Ultimately it is not my decision to make. Folks who take part in the hunt are merely helping to gather information so that the best decision can be made.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Bob, where do the lakelands fit in here. Which was around first, the Lakelands or the Welsh? Both look much like minerature airedales.



The Welsh was around first......Probably! :-D 
As I commented it's "though" the Welsh to be the old black and tan terrier that is behind many of them but nobody knows for sure.
Two totally different body types also. the Lakeland is finer, racier. The Welsh is often described as being cobby/thicker. Similar to what I see in your new pup as compared to your breeding. You do see the b&t color in the Lackland but more often then not they are red or wheaton colored.
I don't see the same fire in a Welsh as I do the Lakeland. Even the show lines.
Many of the Fells "type" working terriers are of working Lackland back ground. 
The different breeds were developed based on location and the dominant dog of that area/town. 150 - 200 yrs ago nobody traveled to breed a dog. 
Believe it or not todays Border terrier, Dandy Dinmont terrier, and Bedlington had common ancestry aka the old time terrier men in the UK. The ability to travel and the Victorian era fad of showing dogs did more to set physical traits then did any working breeding although you could look at a dog and say "that's a terrier bred by the Parson Russell, or that's a terrier bred by such and such. That even carries over to today. No one would mistake a show line Dale for yours but most could say they were Airedales. TYPE!
When I was showing Kerrys in the breed ring I could tell who was the owner pretty much by looking at type and grooming. I've even had other people walk up to me and say they could tell I did the grooming on so and so's dog. I groomed for a number of show people in Kerrys.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

catherine hardigan said:


> The dogs live out in kennels all year and the season lasts from November through April. I think they feel that dogs with broken coats would have an easier time in the cold and wet.
> 
> Here are some pictures of Welsh hounds.
> 
> ...



My Border terriers would come out of the water and look like they had never gone in with just a few shakes.
My Norwich show line had a very nice "looking" coat (with tons of rolling the coat) but he'd be soaked to the skin in a light rain.
Mt rough coated JRT has a crappy, rough looking coat with no grooming but he's also waterproof. 
My single coated Kerrys looked like drown rats when they got wet but never paid it any attention when they were in the field. 
The broken/rough coated dogs also shed dirt like nothing was there. More then once I went in the show ring with one of my Borders with nothing but a quick brushing after a days hunting in the ground.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> The Welsh was around first......Probably! :-D
> As I commented it's "though" the Welsh to be the old black and tan terrier that is behind many of them but nobody knows for sure.
> Two totally different body types also. the Lakeland is finer, racier. The Welsh is often described as being cobby/thicker. Similar to what I see in your new pup as compared to your breeding. You do see the b&t color in the Lackland but more often then not they are red or wheaton colored.
> I don't see the same fire in a Welsh as I do the Lakeland. Even the show lines.
> ...


Do you think lakelands were ever used for badger? I heard that they were more of a fox slayer and too rough for badger work. There job was to drive out the fox or kill it in the earth. Since the area they are from is so hilly it was impossible to dig them out often times.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Ben Thompson said:


> Do you think lakelands were ever used for badger? I heard that they were more of a fox slayer and too rough for badger work. There job was to drive out the fox or kill it in the earth. Since the area they are from is so hilly it was impossible to dig them out often times.


"Kill in the earth" was primary for the Lakeland. They were from the lake district where the digging was way to rocky for digging. there, the fox is considered sheep killing vermin.
A dog that works badger has to have a bit of sense about them (baying dog in the ground) because the badger will kill them with ease. 
The Lacklands are way to hot.
It's been said that if your hunting fox for fur, don't use a Lackland because there wont be much of the hide left when it get done.
I hunted along side a Lakeland cross that had severed the raccoon's head by the time we dug to her. 
The "oldtimers" in GB aka the readings and terrier men from there I've hunted with over here that have said if your working terrier needs a more gas, cross it with a Lakeland.
If your working terrrier needs a bit of sense, cross it with a Border.
Having had two borders myself I would somewhat question that. Hard, hard dogs in the ground!
Even the AKC standards reject a wavy coat on the parson Russel terriers. That wavy coat often means a throw back to lakeland crosses.


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