# RAW Food Diet Simple Recipes



## Nick wathen (Feb 26, 2012)

I have researched raw food diet and a couple of years ago we had tried it. I just was iffy on whether the dogs were getting all supplements they needed. We are back to wanting to try it again.  In the morning we plan on feeding kibble. In the evening wanting to do raw. So my questions are:
Is there any simple recipes you guys use? And how do I know how much organ and such to feed so we dont over do particular things? I have researched a lot of places but feel uncomfortable about doing it before I had asked these questions. We can get whole chicken backs frozen at the butcher really cheap along with about any kind of pork or beef. 
thanks!! hope to get some great advise.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Nick wathen said:


> I have researched raw food diet and a couple of years ago we had tried it. I just was iffy on whether the dogs were getting all supplements they needed. We are back to wanting to try it again. In the morning we plan on feeding kibble. In the evening wanting to do raw. So my questions are:
> Is there any simple recipes you guys use? And how do I know how much organ and such to feed so we dont over do particular things? I have researched a lot of places but feel uncomfortable about doing it before I had asked these questions. We can get whole chicken backs frozen at the butcher really cheap along with about any kind of pork or beef.
> thanks!! hope to get some great advise.


These are both accessible reads, and inexpensive.

http://www.amazon.com/Raw-Natural-Nutrition-Dogs-Definitive/dp/1556439032

http://www.amazon.com/Natural-Nutrition-Dogs-Kymythy-Schultze/dp/1561706361


I think lots of people feel much more confident after reading even a short book on raw feeding.

I'll PM you a couple of very detailed links, too.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Nick wathen said:


> We can get whole chicken backs frozen at the butcher really cheap along with about any kind of pork or beef.
> thanks!! hope to get some great advise.


Chicken backs plus varied muscle meats are actually one of my top choices for the basis of the diet. If you can get chicken backs, you are well on your way.

About 5 to 10% of the raw diet is organ meat, which I always start slowly (because it's one of the possible diarrhea triggers for some dogs, when added too-much-too-fast, and diarrhea is much easier to avoid than fix, IMO).


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

We hit on this recently & I question what organs & how much or what is balance? Connie do you prefer backs over leg/thigh (chicken)? Thanks


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## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

Ive been feeding my dogs raw for almost 4yrs now - at first I tried to calc certain % of this and that... and i've learned that it dosn't matter. I currently feed them whatever I have. Usually, its chicken quarters. On occasion, I go through periods where i'm busy, i feed them kibble. No big deal.


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## kerry engels (Nov 7, 2010)

How many times a day do most of you "raw" folks feed a adult dog per day? Do most of you have a "fasting" day? And for the ones that supplement were is a good source for things like dry kelp powder and dry alfalfa?

Thanks.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

kerry engels said:


> How many times a day do most of you "raw" folks feed a adult dog per day? Do most of you have a "fasting" day? And for the ones that supplement were is a good source for things like dry kelp powder and dry alfalfa?
> 
> Thanks.



I feed 2x a day (like many here, I have bloat-vulnerable breeds). I don't do fasting, but I know many do.

Leerburg has both kelp and alfalfa.

My primary supplement is fish oil (and the vitamin E to help protect the PUFAs in oil supplements).


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Steve Estrada said:


> We hit on this recently & I question what organs & how much or what is balance? Connie do you prefer backs over leg/thigh (chicken)? Thanks


I find chicken livers to be the easiest to get where I shop. When I see beef liver, I do get it. And of course chicken backs "come with" kidneys attached .... not enough organ meat to use just that, but a nice little bonus. :smile: If I had easy access to different/other offal, I would give it instead of liver when I had it.

I do like to feed chicken backs. I have different size dogs (including pretty small), so backs work for all of them. (The smallest dog tends to end up with unprocessed knobs of weight-bearing bones in his poop when I give leg quarters, but obviously this is an individual situation. :lol: ) Of course I add muscle meat to backs, and the muscle meat is where I provide protein variety.

By "balance," did you mean amount of organ meat? That's about 5 to 10% of the diet.


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## Anne Jones (Mar 27, 2006)

I have been feeding raw for almost 9 years. 

I also use backs as the basis of a raw diet with a variety of muscle meats & protein sources. But I also use other RMBs like pork necks, chicken & turkey necks & occasionally a wing (not good for regular feeding) or 2.

I feed leg Qtrs...but feel that on a regular basis, only feeding them as the RMBs, that the meat to bone ratio is not what I feel is right. A bit too much bone vs muscle meat. If you were to feed them as 1x a day (with the other meal a better bone/meat balance)or several times a week or add additional musce meat, then I would say that is fine.

The more varried the diet the better. Include fish,eggs, variety of meats & RMBs, organ meats, (remember hearts are muscle meat as are gizzards) yougert, green tripe, veggies & on & on.....


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

The simpler the diet, the more likely you are going to have to supplement to cover your bases. Dogs need something like 40 vitamins, minerals, amino acids, and micronutrients, so they are not koalas who can get all their nutrients from one thing. Variety is best and organs and a veggie mix are not optional. When I do diet consults for people, they either want super simple because they don't have time for anything else (most pet owners) or they want to go pretty complicated. Simple is pretty easy. Complicated diets with a lot of rotation or more exotic meats or cuts is difficult.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Anne Jones said:


> ... The more varried the diet the better. Include fish,eggs, variety of meats & RMBs, organ meats, (remember hearts are muscle meat as are gizzards) yougert, green tripe, veggies & on & on.....





Maren Bell Jones said:


> Dogs need something like 40 vitamins, minerals, amino acids, and micronutrients, so they are not koalas who can get all their nutrients from one thing. Variety is best and organs and a veggie mix are not optional.


I'm 100% in agreement that the more variety, the better.


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## joshua thor (Jun 18, 2010)

Turkey necks
Fish oil
Multivitamin
Garlic yeast pill
Now and then eggs/yogurt


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

joshua thor said:


> Turkey necks
> Fish oil
> Multivitamin
> Garlic yeast pill
> Now and then eggs/yogurt


Are you asking for opinions?


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## Anne Jones (Mar 27, 2006)

As an example of my dogs' meals for today...

AM: chicken backs, ground turkey(mix of white & dark meats),beef heart, liver & kidney,lightly scrambled egg, lightly stemed yellow & green squach,sugar free plain greek yougert with 5 probiotics,small piece of banana,salmon oil, teasp each of powdered kelp & alfalfa, pumpkin, Vit E cap

PM: chicken leg Qtr,goat meat cut up, ground pork, pork liver, lightly steamed green beans, mackeral, green tripe, a few blueberries.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Sounds tasty, Anne. :smile:


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

Can I come for dinner Anne? That sounds better than anything I get at home! I'd probably gain about 30 lbs!

Craig


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## Anne Jones (Mar 27, 2006)

Yep...there are days that they eat better than I do. Tonight I get homemade baked mac & cheese. Not too shabby. 

I forgot to add ....that I often add THK (the honest Kitchen dehydrated dog food) to my dogs' food. I use 3 of their grain free one products...Embark (turkey), Love(beef) & Zeal (fish). I use them as a sauce over food, as a stand alone (if I forget to thaw out food) or as an accumpliment to RMBs. My dogs love them!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Anne Jones said:


> ... I often add THK (the honest Kitchen dehydrated dog food) to my dogs' food. I use 3 of their grain free one products...Embark (turkey), Love(beef) & Zeal (fish). I use them as a sauce over food, as a stand alone (if I forget to thaw out food) or as an accumpliment to RMBs. My dogs love them!



So do I.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

I have one solely on THK because of his IBD. For the other I add it 3-4 times a week for the veggie mix. Easier than making the veggies myself.

Tonight she got a chicken back and THK. This morning was beef flank steak and drumsticks. 

I add salmon oil, vitamin e, and probiotics once a day. When the flank steak is out I'll be thawing ground pork. Last month it was turkey and green tripe. I use chicken livers mostly for organ meat. 

I just buy whatever I haven't gotten in a while and feed them that. I add muscle meat to the IBD dog's THK pretty often.

I usually feed twice a day but they skip meals and have fast days here and there for tracking. 

Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but it seems pretty simple to me...


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

I agree with you that using THK as a base makes it pretty simple. 

Personally, it seems like a great fallback to me for anyone who is unsure about raw feeding or who just wants to save time. 

I wish it was cheaper .... but then, you get what you pay for.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Yeah. I don't have a processor or even a decent blender so using THK for the veggies has been wonderful. And I don't need to use a lot for the Shepherd since it's just for veggies, and the Corgi is only 28lbs. A box lasts at least a month. Not TOO bad. As much as a big bag of kibble to split between them.

And since I buy the raw food from a co-op I buy bulk and it's much cheaper. I also get THK through my co-op for $5-10 cheaper.


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

Have a good laugh on me! I kept wondering what THK was as I feed preference, Connie mentioned it first, wow the senior moments. What do the majority use in the THK line ( good huh?) I'll get the acronyms yet....


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Steve Estrada said:


> Have a good laugh on me! I kept wondering what THK was as I feed preference, Connie mentioned it first, wow the senior moments. What do the majority use in the THK line ( good huh?) I'll get the acronyms yet....



Mainly Force and Zeal for me. 

Zeal is quite expensive but has ingredients I want to feed. I use it kinda sparingly as a "side dish" or "gravy" because of its cost.



Note: Preference isn't a balanced diet. It's the only one. I know I keep saying that, but it's important. 

Preference is a base only, meant to add your own protein to for a dog who has problems with common proteins like turkey or chicken or beef.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

I use Force and Embark. One of these days I'll buy Love. Zeal is stupid expensive.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

I should add that I very occasionally feed Stella and Chewey's. I would never pay that much money for dog food, but we have a rep that comes into my work as a client so he gives me free bags. Usually $20-50 worth of food at a time! It's always a nice surprise for the dogs.


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## Kathy Marcom (Mar 7, 2010)

Do any of you weigh the amount of food you are feeding, what ever it is? Reading what you talk about it seems like you are putting to much into it, yes it is about variety, but make it simple.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

I think it is simple. I weigh sometimes but mostly I eyeball it. I weighed every time when I first started. I pretty much just throw it in a bowl and feed.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Kathy Marcom said:


> Do any of you weigh the amount of food you are feeding, what ever it is? Reading what you talk about it seems like you are putting to much into it, yes it is about variety, but make it simple.



Kathy, don't forget your Bio/Intro (mandatory).

http://www.WorkingDogForum.com/vBulletin/f20/

Thanks!


Yes, I weighed until I had an eye for it, many years ago. It's all streamlined and second nature now.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I don't weigh all my dogs food,but when I'm breaking down a bulk box into individual portions to refreeze, I do spot check the weight along the way. Otherwise I have noticed that my individual portions seem to get bigger the further along I am in the process. For example, by the time I'm at the end of skinning and bagging a 30 - 40lb box of still semi frozen chicken necks, it's quite possible for me to have a few pounds shoved into one little baggie because my hands are cold and I just want to be done with it, and clean up.

Incidently, I'm so happy my husband put a bathroom with a huge sink in the downstairs garage. This has made my life much easier up here. And to think I told him it was a stupid idea.


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

Kathy Marcom said:


> Do any of you weigh the amount of food you are feeding, what ever it is? Reading what you talk about it seems like you are putting to much into it, yes it is about variety, but make it simple.


I used to when I started, now I just eye ball or adjust the amounts as the dogs start showing ribs or getting plump. 

I use Ziplock containers when I divide and freeze my portions and I know how much ground meat goes into each size weight wise as I originally would weight them. Now I know approx the medium one holds 2lbs the large one 5. When I give chicken frames I'm not going to bother trying to weight them and be precise, what am I going to cut off 20% of a chicken frame because it's to much? NO. Way too much hassle. If they get some thing bigger one day, they get some thing smaller the next. As a general rule the smaller guys get 1 frame, the big guys get 2 on most day and 1 on some... or they might get one and a larger chunk of ground meat. I fast not as a rule but when I happen to forget to pull some thing out of the freezer, or if I gave them an extra large meal the day before as I noticed some of the meat was starting to go bad, I will fast them the following day.

I try to do as much variety as I can, our staple is chicken frames and ground pork, they also get turkey necks, various other chicken parts (I buy chicken frames as well as whole chickens and cut them up into portions), beef, goat, the ones that will eat it get fresh mackerel, pork/beef/chicken organs, I can get goat stomachs, cow hoofs, cow legs, they have on occasion gotten duck and rabbit, they also get green tripe (cow) fairly regularly, plus supplements of wild salmon oil, kelp, and probiotic/enzyme. For veggies they essentially get my left overs, what ever looks like it's starting to go or dinner left overs, I throw it all into the food processor and make a mush. They get parsley, lettuce, apples, blueberries, carrots, squash, strawberries, banana, occasionally pasta, tomatoes...


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Kathy Marcom said:


> Do any of you weigh the amount of food you are feeding, what ever it is? Reading what you talk about it seems like you are putting to much into it, yes it is about variety, but make it simple.


I recommend to clients starting home prepared diets to weigh it on a food scale first, especially with over or underweight dogs, puppies, or if they have a medical condition that we are doing a very specific recipe for, but most tend to get a feel for it after a couple weeks to months for adult dogs on maintenance.


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

Plus if I buy a 2lb package of beef and 1/2lb package of organs... do I really need to weigh this stuff to get my amounts? Grade school math does come in handy!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Marta Wajngarten said:


> Plus if I buy a 2lb package of beef and 1/2lb package of organs... do I really need to weigh this stuff to get my amounts? Grade school math does come in handy!


Yes, agreed: when I buy, say, 5 pounds of backs, I eyeball it to split in half and then half again so I have 4 baggies 
of 1-1/4 pounds each.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Yes, agreed: when I buy, say, 5 pounds of backs, I eyeball it to split in half and then half again so I have 4 baggies
> of 1-1/4 pounds each.


Gosh I used to love the 40lb boxes of Murray's chicken frames I used to get from my Bravo dealer in So Calif.. Beautiful, around 1lb each, and the necks were attached too. She stopped carrying them because it was easier to cater to her rich clients with small dogs who didn't have to buy in bulk.


Up hear I belong to a raw dog food group for Washington and Oregon (we make one big combined order for more buying power) and one of the companies they just started ordering from is Bravo. I'm hoping they can get those frames, we'll see. 

I've been ordering my bulk bones from an independent local grocery called Sunny Farms. They raise all their own meats, except for the poultry, unfortunately. The chicken necks I get from them come with the skin on (yuck, have to skin them), I have yet to order their backs, but the turkey necks are really super nice. Everything else is pretty good but pretty expensive too.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

_"The chicken necks I get from them come with the skin on (yuck, have to skin them)"_

Why do they have to be skinned? Is the skin on necks very fatty? (I don't think I've seen them "skin-on.")

I do skin the backs when I'm first switching a dog to raw, but only for the first few meals.


_
"I have yet to order their backs"_

How much are the backs? I'd much rather get backs because of the one Hoover-dog I have; he'll actually give a chew or two to a chicken back, but necks go straight down and frequently back up for a second turn. Plus backs have that handy little variety attached: kidneys. :lol:


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> _"The chicken necks I get from them come with the skin on (yuck, have to skin them)"_
> 
> Why do they have to be skinned? Is the skin on necks very fatty? (I don't think I've seen them "skin-on.")
> 
> ...


My adult male GSD doesn't handle a lot of chicken skin very well, so I skinned them. The bulk box of necks I got from them was a LOT of skin, I would venture a guess that close to half the weight of the box was skin, so that's a big waste. I don't feed turkey butts either because they are so fatty.

I have to find out how much the bulk backs are, I'll give them a try, hopefully they won't have as much skin as their chicken necks, and I won't have to skin them.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Question, wing tips have become available in my local butcher they are treat size and little or no méat, some feathers, nearly all cartlidge??? they crunch when eaten. Extremely inexpensive.

Good or bad too add in a balanced raw diet??


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

If they are less than 10% of the total diet, that's fine as an occasional treat. I give mine wing tips too every once in a while if I am making hot wings.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Question, wing tips have become available in my local butcher they are treat size and little or no méat, some feathers, nearly all cartlidge??? they crunch when eaten. Extremely inexpensive.
> 
> Good or bad too add in a balanced raw diet??


Pretty much useless, I'm thinking ....

If you gave a lot of them, like for marker rewards, then the bone amount in the diet would probably have to be adjusted to avoid the dry (even hard) poops that are triggered by too much bone-to-meat. If you didn't give a lot of them, then ... why bother. :lol:

I suppose they could be used to up the bone content where you happened to have a bunch of boneless muscle meat.

Or I guess a few could be mixed in with other rewards.

JMO!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> My adult male GSD doesn't handle a lot of chicken skin very well, so I skinned them. The bulk box of necks I got from them was a LOT of skin, I would venture a guess that close to half the weight of the box was skin, so that's a big waste. I don't feed turkey butts either because they are so fatty.
> 
> I have to find out how much the bulk backs are, I'll give them a try, hopefully they won't have as much skin as their chicken necks, and I won't have to skin them.


Oh, yeah, half the content being skin would be a PITA.

(I'm pretty sure backs are unlikely to have as much skin as necks, since it's only on one side instead of all around.)


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Thanks, only considering them as natural raw treats, can adjust bone content. Have bought a bag of dr symes mix of grains and veges, seems like a lot of grain, dog gets 160 grams soaked overnight in water and added to méat and chewable bones.

Seems to easy to be true, would appreciate opinions on commercial grain veg mixes to add to méat.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Thanks, only considering them as natural raw treats, can adjust bone content. Have bought a bag of dr symes mix of grains and veges, seems like a lot of grain, dog gets 160 grams soaked overnight in water and added to méat and chewable bones.
> 
> Seems to easy to be true, would appreciate opinions on commercial grain veg mixes to add to méat.


Got a link?

Isn't Dr. Symes the vet who speaks and writes against gluten in the dog's diet? John Symes?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

This guy?

http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/8_3/features/15700-1.html

I can't imagine him developing a grain mix for dogs.



ETA
Oh, I see via Google who you must mean. Bruce Syme? Got a link to the ingredients?


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Dr bruce symes www.vetsallnatural.com.au

Apparently nothing else to add except meat 480 grams and soak mix in 160grams water.

Good option if its good, bad option if its bad lol???


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Links are difficult on phone.

Rhs of homepage above first tab product is 'complete mix — adult'

I dont know enough to argue with the marketing.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

You could argue this is just kibble with meat and water added???


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

he calls dogs omnivores???

How to, this easy in pictures;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCOU0yTBeAg
on grains for dogs, article
http://vetsallnatural.com.au/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=66&Itemid=82

ingredients;
http://vetsallnatural.com.au/CMsheet.pdfer 
omega blend oil - product
http://vetsallnatural.com.au/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=123

other articles;
http://vetsallnatural.com.au/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=53&Itemid=18


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## Sally Crunkleton (Jan 13, 2012)

So I am fed up with dog food right now and seriously researching raw so I do it right if I going to do it. 

I read that one of the biggest cautions is to give the proper calcium to phosphorus supplement. Other than bones, what is the best source if calcium and how much?

Also, on the recall thread I got k9 natural and ziwi peak as suggestions. I also found Darwins and PetFresh Vital to seem good....any thoughts or experiences with the "pre-made" raw diets?


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

Sally Crunkleton said:


> any thoughts or experiences with the "pre-made" raw diets?


At least around here, they are VERY expensive at least 4x and more the cost if you were to assemble the meals yourself. Feeding a little dog might be fine but to feed a large dog on some of the pre made raw diets would be a car payment for a pretty decent car.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Marta Wajngarten said:


> At least around here, they are VERY expensive at least 4x and more the cost if you were to assemble the meals yourself. Feeding a little dog might be fine but to feed a large dog on some of the pre made raw diets would be a car payment for a pretty decent car.


I agree. 
When I first started feeding raw I fed the veg/bone/meat chubbs from Bravo as 1 meal and whole bones as the other (I feed twice a day) . It wasn't long (maybe a couple months) before I switched to 100% homemade. The expense is a major consideration, plus I feel much better controlling all aspects of the diet.


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## Sally Crunkleton (Jan 13, 2012)

Yes, the prices are crazy. I found one who delivers to your home on a schedule, but when I saw how much- my first thought was that I can never get a 2nd dog! 

But the calcium supplement???


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> he calls dogs omnivores???
> 
> How to, this easy in pictures;
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCOU0yTBeAg
> ...


It would help when I'm trying to fix one of your broken links if you would leave out the font size changes. 

Anyway, I see no real ingredient list. The .pdf at http://vetsallnatural.com.au/CMsheet.pdf (NOT http://vetsallnatural.com.au/CMsheet.pdfer ) has no ordered ingredient list (that I see).

This is NOT an ingredient list the way I mean it: _Complete Mix contains a combination of uncooked mixed cereal grains including rolled oats, cracked barley, flax seed meal and whole oats. The carefully formulated meal also has dried vegetables, garlic, parsley, barley grass, calcium, yeast , kelp, lecithin and vitamin C._ You see how there is no listing in order of ingredient content? If that actually IS in order of content, then there's no way I would buy what is basically a cereal mix ("mixed cereal grains including rolled oats, cracked barley, flax seed meal and whole oats") for dogs. 

PS

I don't care about the hype, the video, the articles about grains .... just the ingredient list.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

_"he calls dogs omnivores???"_

They are, actually. They are far over on the carnivore end of that scale, but dogs can survive on all kinds of random diets. Unlike, say, cats, dogs aren't obligate carnivores.

Obligate carnivores need animal flesh for their survival.

However, there's no way to look at the design of the dog, from mouth to gut, and not realize that meat is their appropriate basic food.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Sally, if you are doing it for the first time, Nature's Variety may be a good first step. They are (as far as I have heard) the first and only raw food that has passed both AAFCO formulation and feeding trials. I also have a couple working dog vet friends of mine who like K9 Kravings, but it is not sold in any store in my state, so I have not personally tried it.

If you are doing supplementation with calcium (or any other major minerals, vitamins, amino acids, etc), I would recommend contacting a vet very familiar with balancing software (I have this ability) or a board certified veterinary nutritionist. Dogs need some 40 vitamins, minerals, micronutrients, and amino acids per day, so this can get pretty complicated if you wish to do it correctly and not just guess. I know of some who will balance a raw diet if you are interested.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Sally Crunkleton said:


> So I am fed up with dog food right now and seriously researching raw so I do it right if I going to do it.
> 
> I read that one of the biggest cautions is to give the proper *calcium to phosphorus supplement*. Other than bones, what is the best source if calcium and how much?


Actually, the big point is the "the proper calcium to phosphorus RATIO" rather than the "the proper calcium to phosphorus supplement."

To think of it in simplistic terms, calcium comes from the digestible bones you give. Phosphorus comes mostly from the meat. (There is some in the bones, but for this paragraph, the bones supply the calcium and the meat supplies the phosphorus.)

So that ratio that you hear so much about really means _bones-to-meat._

For example, a boneless diet, such as the infamous ground beef diet, is a nutritional disaster.

A good balanced raw diet based on RMBs needs no calcium supplement and should not include one.

Diets that do need careful calcium supplementation are home-cooked (or other boneless) diets.

Commercial diets contain the calcium needed, whether it's actual bone or another source.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

I agree with Maren that supplementing with calcium is not a hit-or-miss casual thing.

PM me if you want more info about it.



ETA
Just thought of something. You know we don't mean recreational bones, right? The RMBs that are the basis of the raw diet are the consumable, digestible bones that come in, say, a rabbit or a chicken. The big marrow bones that some folks give their dogs as treats, to chew on, aren't relevant to this.


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Can you feed emu? There is a local farm here that donated lots of leftovers to feed when I did wildlife rehab.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

julie allen said:


> Can you feed emu? There is a local farm here that donated lots of leftovers to feed when I did wildlife rehab.



I've read that emu ribs, etc., are great, and emu meat, but that the weight-bearing bones are particularly heavy and hard and probably not so great for dogs.

But I don't even recall where I read it, so don't quote me.

I also read that one of the oldest reported dogs in recent decades (over age 20, but I don't remember how much older) had a diet of kangaroo and emu. :lol:


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## Sally Crunkleton (Jan 13, 2012)

Lol Connie, I did know what RMB's meant! But, of course many do not and still do not get that raw is the only safe bone! 

Thanks for the input, and I will pm you about that info. 

I am trying this for the first time, although I feed rmb's occasionally for dental cleaning purposes. Unless there is a dry food that is the next best thing to raw I don't know that I have a choice.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Sally Crunkleton said:


> Lol Connie, I did know what RMB's meant! But, of course many do not and still do not get that raw is the only safe bone!
> 
> Thanks for the input, and I will pm you about that info.
> 
> I am trying this for the first time, although I feed rmb's occasionally for dental cleaning purposes. Unless there is a dry food that is the next best thing to raw I don't know that I have a choice.


There's The Honest Kitchen. This is a perfect vehicle for either RMBs or boneless meat, as long as you stay within the recommended amount of add-ins. 

_"I feed rmb's occasionally for dental cleaning purposes."
_

Like what RMBs? I'm not sure that occasional RMBs are particularly significant for dental cleaning for most dogs. Most dogs hardly chew something like a chicken back.


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## Sally Crunkleton (Jan 13, 2012)

Connie Sutherland said:


> There's The Honest Kitchen. This is a perfect vehicle for either RMBs or boneless meat, as long as you stay within the recommended amount of add-ins.
> 
> _"I feed rmb's occasionally for dental cleaning purposes."
> _
> ...


My vet told me to do this because chewing raw bones clean their teeth. I give the large beef rib bones, or turkey necks. I have never found chicken backs, but my dog takes his time chewing. Maybe because it's not something he's use to all the time, or I got lucky. So are they useless for cleaning teeth?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Sally Crunkleton said:


> My vet told me to do this because chewing raw bones clean their teeth. I give the large beef rib bones, or turkey necks. I have never found chicken backs, but my dog takes his time chewing. Maybe because it's not something he's use to all the time, or I got lucky. So are they useless for cleaning teeth?


No. Your dog is chewing.

I have one (only one) who chews. :lol:


Not useless, but also not a cure-all. There are individual 100%-raw-fed dogs who still accumulate plaque and who still need more than just a raw diet to maintain their teeth.


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## Sally Crunkleton (Jan 13, 2012)

Connie Sutherland said:


> No. Your dog is chewing.
> 
> I have one (only one) who chews. :lol:
> 
> ...


I do brush his teeth, but when I asked to clean them while he was under for something else, they vet told me it was a waste of my money when he looked at his teeth. He's not even 4 yet, so maybe he just hasn't has enough crud build up just yet


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Sally Crunkleton said:


> I do brush his teeth, but when I asked to clean them while he was under for something else, they vet told me it was a waste of my money when he looked at his teeth. He's not even 4 yet, so maybe he just hasn't has enough crud build up just yet



Ah, you are fortunate! EXCELLENT!


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## Sally Crunkleton (Jan 13, 2012)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Ah, you are fortunate! EXCELLENT!




I need some good fortune with something dog related....if you only knew!


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

I will ring the company today, which means i will most likely get someone in a third world country reading out the list of ingrédients posted. I do understand what you mean like a kibble bag, first listed means most etc...why not express it as a percentage????? Everything gotta be so vague.

Hope the product is ok i got a adult dog and puppy bag, not cheap and thought i was doing the right thing by my dawgs.





Connie Sutherland said:


> It would help when I'm trying to fix one of your broken links if you would leave out the font size changes.
> 
> Anyway, I see no real ingredient list. The .pdf at http://vetsallnatural.com.au/CMsheet.pdf (NOT http://vetsallnatural.com.au/CMsheet.pdfer ) has no ordered ingredient list (that I see).
> 
> ...


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

I would ask "where can I READ the ingredient list in order of content"?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> I will ring the company today, which means i will most likely get someone in a third world country reading out the list of ingrédients posted. I do understand what you mean like a kibble bag, first listed means most etc...why not express it as a percentage????? Everything gotta be so vague.
> 
> Hope the product is ok i got a adult dog and puppy bag, not cheap and thought i was doing the right thing by my dawgs.


You bought it already? There must be an ingredient list on the package.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Yeah i bought it already, the only list on the bag is exactly whats in the pdf. When i opened and saw all the oats is when i went HUh???? and posted.

The oméga oïl is not from fish, its from flaxseed, i would prefer no garlic but garlic is in everything natural these days for its properties of discouraging parasites...???? 

Hey if i dont like i'm sure my horse will enjoy the oats and barley lol.

What about anemia causing properties????, worse than worms???


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Yeah i bought it already, the only list on the bag is exactly whats in the pdf. When i opened and saw all the oats is when i went HUh???? and posted.
> 
> The oméga oïl is not from fish, its from flaxseed, i would prefer no garlic but garlic is in everything natural these days for its properties of discouraging parasites...????
> 
> Hey if i dont like i'm sure my horse will enjoy the oats and barley lol.


We've had many posts here about the BS factor in "Omega 3s" emblazoned across packages of dog food usually meaning flax or canola.

Even for humans, these are not reliable or efficient building blocks for EPA and DHA. In dogs, the conversion factor of ALA to EPA and DHA is about zero.

I'd probably return that stuff, or if I couldn't, I'd probably use it up in small amounts (not even close to the proportion he says) rehydrated and added to a balanced raw diet. 

I watched the video and I saw no greenish tinge to the rehydrated stuff. Looked like soaked oatmeal to me.

I don't mean it's poison or anything. I do mean it looks like a gigantic ripoff (unless it's approximately the per-pound price of rolled oats). And he was mixing the cereal with what appeared to be approximately equal meat. That would be kinda like a kibble I wouldn't buy -- too much cereal.

Also, I saw no calcium in the ingredients, and I saw no bone in the meat he was adding. It might have been ground bone-in meat, but I'd be sure to double-check that. 

On the package, does it have a "guaranteed analysis"?




Peter Cavallaro said:


> You could argue this is just kibble with meat and water added???


Yep, you could.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Sally Crunkleton said:


> I do brush his teeth, but when I asked to clean them while he was under for something else, they vet told me it was a waste of my money when he looked at his teeth. He's not even 4 yet, so maybe he just hasn't has enough crud build up just yet


I find that some are more tarter susceptible than others. I've used turkey necks for teeth cleaning for years. I had a dog that I would have the vet do a thorough cleaning for $30 and 2 weeks later you couldn't tell the difference. A couple of turkey necks and wallah--pristine. I have a dog in for training and from what I understand, her daily diet is chicken backs and NRG. I looked at her teeth yesterday and couldn't believe the build up. Gonna switch her to turkey necks and see if they work for her as well. 

Terrasita


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> These are both accessible reads, and inexpensive.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Raw-Natural-Nutrition-Dogs-Definitive/dp/1556439032
> 
> ...


I have that first book kindled on my tablet (Connie has recommended it before), it's a nice little gem!


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Isn't Lew Olson the guy with the B-Naturals site? I would love to see something that gets into the calcium/phosphorus ratios of various cuts of raw meat--chicken. Muscle meat in chicken has very high phsosphorus. I'm especially concerned about this in terms of those that feed raw to growing puppies. I think I came cross one USDA site that gives the nutritional break down for various cuts. Are there any other books or websites that address this?

T


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Isn't Lew Olson the guy with the B-Naturals site?
> 
> T


Yes, SHE is that guy. 


PS
I remember a partial reprint from AAFCO of calcium and phosphorus content of some poultry parts on the Steve's (raw food) site. I'll dig it up.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Scroll to the bottom section, "Phosphorus and Calcium in Your Dog’s Diet"
at http://stevesrealfood.com/category/about-raw-dog-food/

There's a chart at the bottom of necks, breast, wings, backs.



Also http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1680828/pdf/canvetj00574-0077.pdf



Also, while not what you asked, I ran across this recently http://naturalpetproductions.net/articles/steve - food analysis.pdf and am finding it very interesting.


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## Nick wathen (Feb 26, 2012)

susan tuck said:


> I have that first book kindled on my tablet (Connie has recommended it before), it's a nice little gem!


 I will be buying those books!! Hope it gives me more confidence on feeding RAW.
Thanks!!


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Scroll to the bottom section, "Phosphorus and Calcium in Your Dog’s Diet"
> at http://stevesrealfood.com/category/about-raw-dog-food/
> 
> There's a chart at the bottom of necks, breast, wings, backs.
> ...



Thanks Connie!!!


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> _
> 
> 
> "I have yet to order their backs"
> ...


_

Connie I just got the backs, 20lbs, paid a little under $1. per pound_


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## Anne Jones (Mar 27, 2006)

Not trying be snarkey at all....& it may depend on your area of the counrty & availability of suppliers (& I live in a pricey area) but your best resource for the lowest prices are wholesale restraunt suppliers. I get 40lb cases of fresh chicken backs for $12 ($.30 LB). Most restraunts use fresh ones regularly for stock & wholesalers carry them all the time. 

Also consider traveling a distance if you need to get a good price. I travel an hour but would travel further if needed. I purchase at 200lbs of backs & other meats & bones at each trip,so I only need to go about every 3 months. So it is worth the trip.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Thanks for the suggestion about restaurants suppliers, I never considered them as a source for raw.

Prices are higher up here, compared to Southern California, sources are scarcer, this is a pretty small town. Anyway, the price isn't a problem, I was just letting Connie know what I paid because she asked. I've been talking to a local rancher who raises and slaughters their own beef, pork and lamb, so I'm looking forward to seeing what's available from her ranch.

Plus the other thing is my stand alone freezers (I have 2 for my dog food) are both still in Southern California, I'm not sure when they will be coming up here. As it stands now, a 46 lb case of tripe, a 20 lb case of chicken backs, about 20 lbs of turkey necks and assorted lamb bones pretty much uses up all the room in the freezer of my refrigerator/freezer in my garage, while the freezer in my house is reserved for the stuff for the humans.

So I used to be able to buy lots of stuff in bulk, but right now I really can't.


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## Anne Jones (Mar 27, 2006)

Susan, my wholesaler also has 10lb rolls if ground meats. I get turkey for $.89 lb. In the regular markerts, here, even Costco it's $2.49- $2.99 a lb on sale. I'm going t assume that most restraunt wholesalers carry this.

I'm in SW Connecticut, 45 min from NYC, in the Greenwich, CT area & EVERYTHING here is way overpriced!! I travel an hour east to get my dog food.

I don't have much here in the way of local livestock farms here. I wish that I did. It's more the bedroom community towns for NYC here.


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## Kathy Marcom (Mar 7, 2010)

Raw meat in am/ Meat/bones in the evening.


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