# Pitbull Puppy Aggression - Follow Up Thread



## Justin Anzalone (Aug 1, 2011)

Alright, now that I have time, I would like to address some of the misconceptions I gave about my training with my puppy, Raynor, and kind of lay some more background for you all.

I got Raynor as a Birthday gift last July. When I picked him up from the breeder's home, he was the last of 2 puppies there, the other being a female. I picked him up at 13 weeks of age. It was obvious that he and his sister had been fighting, because there were little scabs all on top of his head. This was the 1st breeding that had been done by the owners, and they were not bred for 'protection sport'. I do not have any 'papers' for the dog, because one of the parents was not registered, although I do believe the father was. He is larger than a traditional game pitbull. I had him neutered at 9 months of age (January) and he weighed 70.5 lbs at time of surgery. He has not really 'filled out', or reached his maximum size, I think he may be closer to 85-90 lbs when he is done growing. I will get all his measurements tonight, the one I know off hand for measurement is his neck circumfrence is 18" right behind the ears. I know that many people believe that Staffies and APBT are the same, but he certainly has a relatively large size, and he does drool quite a bit at foodtime so there may be some mastiff in the mix as well.

Let me explain what I consider his 'genetic temperament' in more detail. When I got him, we were in Puerto Rico visiting my girlfriend's family. I believe the 2nd day we had him I took him to El Yunque national park / rain forest and we went on a long (~2 mile) hike. In retrospect this was probably extrememly stressful to the puppy and I may have brought some of his aggression out, I will let you all be the judge. I can remember even then that he was uncomfortable walking down the narrow path and people walking too close to us in the opposite direction. He was growling then. Again in hindsight, this probably could have been a red flag.

When he first came home and met my 7 year old pet Jack Russel, they got along fine except for during feeding. My JRT would snoop around his bowl, and eventually got bit on the paw, enough to draw blood. I immediately began feeding both dogs in their crate (a tip I got from Leerburg) and he has never shown aggression towards my JRT again. They can now eat next to each other if I desire, but rather than play with fire, I always feed Raynor in his crate.

A month after I got him back to my condo, he ran into my couch and hurt himself. My girlfriend took him to the vet, and while the vet was examining him, she apparently lifted his leg (he had bruised a growth plate) and caused him enough pain that he urinated, defacated, and turned to bite the vet. She yelled at the dog and my g/f (according to her version of the story, I wasn't there) and said "you're giving pitbulls a bad name". Needless to say, I never gave that vet anymore of my business.

Again, when I got the pup, I did not get him with the goal of having a dog for 'protection sport'. I just started doing as much research as I could about the breed and what they could excel at. I know they are not herders and don't take necessarily to protection, but I picked up Leerburg, Ellis, Balabanov, Milan, and as many resources as I could get my hands on in terms of books, articles, and dvds. I tried to apply everything I could glean from the various trainer that made sense to me and my puppy responded to (marker training, obedience without conflict, etc).

Leerburg was a big influence on me, particularly "How to raise a working dog". I never really let Raynor be pet by strangers and he never really showed any interest in them. He was and still is dog neutral and doesn't show much interest in dogs. I tried to do as much neutralizing with strangers as possible by making myself be more interesting.

At about 6 months of age, I brought him into the car wash with me. Big mistake. I should have sensed his body language and walked out. He was barking and clearly uncomfortable. I did not get out of there fast enough and unfortunately an employee walked by and he bit, and I am fairly certain it was out of fear.

There was a long period of time after that I basically did not do any obediece training. Several people told me they had similar situations where a dog goes through a 'fear phase' and eventually comes out of it. I think I sipped a little too much of kool-aid and pinned my hopes on that being the case with him rather than looking at the full picture. As a 'green handler', I don't believe I'm totally at fault for that. 

I mentioned that I used hard corrections on the dog in the other thread, but I did use that out of context. If I see that he is fixating or uncomfortable, I immediately give him either a sit or down command, normally a down because I feel that it is a more submissive position. I will then give him a correction if he does not comply.

I have not used a dominant dog collar with him, but having seen it used, it seems like a good tool, and I'm interested in your thoughts on that.

I have used a muzzle with him in public but I have desensitized him to it. He does not fight me to put it on. I know that he does get stressed, because he will occasionally whimper when he has it on, but it is absolutely a necessity for me at this stage.

A few months ago, if someone, anyone, came into his "space" it could trigger full-blown, red zone level type aggression. I believe once he redirected to me and bit me on the arm. A very soft bite, but a bite none the less. He has learned to use that aggression to get himself out of uncomfortable situations, in my opinion.

He does not actively seek out a fight with anyone. He mostly uses it as deterrent, and I bet if someone had the balls, he would break and probably flee as opposed to continue his intent to injure.

The main issue is the unpredictable nature, as well as my failure early on to read his body language. I've learned to do a much better job of reading all of his body language. Whether he hackles at strangers, if his eyes fixate and glaze over, the position of his ears, etc.

In retrospect I regret some of the things I said. He has never come close to biting anyone at my condo, though he is easily startled if we are walking by another unit and someone opens the door, that will set him off. I typically ignore the person and continue to give a 'heel' command, correcting if necessary and praising once he has given me compliance. I do not muzzle him on a day to day basis. Only if we are going to be in extremely close contact with other people, such as the park where people on bikes, rollerblades, etc are shooting past us.

I know that he will never be mister social, and that's ok. He really only likes affection from me and a few close friends, but he is not the type of dog that runs up to me to demand affection, or anything of the sort. 

I am really hopeful that working with a qualified behaviorist will equip me with all the tools necessary to manage Raynor. Other than the unpredictable aggression he has been a great dog, and I think the though of PTS was a bit premature. I'm thankful for the tough words that some of you had for me, as well as those who empathize with me, because it's useful to have a variety of perspective.

I'm going to Florida in May and I know based on his current behavior, there's no way he can come with me, so I will be boarding him. My hope is that someday he can vacation with me. Again he doesn't have to be Mr. Social, he just has to be manageable and predictable.

I appreciate you all taking the time to read both of my threads, and now will stand back and wait with an open mind to any and all feedback that you may have for me.


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## mike finn (Jan 5, 2011)

A_ few months ago, if someone, anyone, came into his "space" it could trigger full-blown, red zone level type aggression. I believe once he redirected to me and bit me on the arm. A very soft bite, but a bite none the less. He has learned to use that aggression to get himself out of uncomfortable situations, in my opinion.

He does not actively seek out a fight with anyone. He mostly uses it as deterrent, and I bet if someone had the balls, he would break and probably flee as opposed to continue his intent to injure.

The main issue is the unpredictable nature, as well as my failure early on to read his body language. I've learned to do a much better job of reading all of his body language. Whether he hackles at strangers, if his eyes fixate and glaze over, the position of his ears, etc_

Justin, this is not the temperment a good pit will have. I have had Pits for twenty years and have only seen a few bad ones. The large size indicates that its probaly one of the new "bully" types. From what I have seen , more of them have screwed up temperments. I am not saying all, but more. I have seen some that I like. There are a lot of great pits out there. I would get rid of this one, and get another one. Some highly credentialed people have told you this dog is not stable. I would take their word over some internet guy who has never seen it in person. Maybe you could get some one with experience to help you pick out a new dog. They can help you evaluate its temperrment, and help you get one that is suitable for protection sports. What ever you decide good luck. I really hope it works out. It is not an easy decision, I know from experience.


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## charles Turner (Mar 2, 2009)

You have explained yourself pretty well, I appreciate that, I'm sure everyone else does too, the bottom line is right now you have a unpredictable pit bull, that's prone to fear biting, a very dangerous combination. You appear to be a very responsible owner of this dog, but just know that you will cause damage to a breed that is already outlawed in a lot of cities, counties and I think even some states have at least tried, if he was to even graze a child, maybe you don't let let him around children, maybe he's fine with them, dunno? I'm sure you know this breed has a bad enough rep as it is. I wish you luck, you seem like a nice guy.


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Considering your original post and now this more in-depth description, I am even more convinced you're dealing with an unstable dog whose lack of socialization has led him to be nervous and fear aggressive. Unfortunately, you followed advice you thought was prudent, but probably not in this dog's best interest.

Years ago, I watched Leerburg's DVD about how to raise a working puppy and I have to say, I don't exactly agree with the idea that your puppy should not be socialized outside of your family unit. It certainly depends on the dog. Some dogs with unflappable nerves will remain confident even if they aren't socialized or exposed to new environments. Other dogs with weak nerves will never be completely comfortable regardless of how much socialization and exposure they receive. I think it's better to err on the side of caution and socialize and expose your puppy properly and try to give him positive experiences as much as possible. Maybe some food for thought if you do get another dog.

Unfortunately, from your detailed history of your dog, it sounds like the dog was destined to follow the path he has gone down. It sounds like even from a young age, he handled discomfort and fear with aggression. It's normal for things to be scary to puppies and it to take them a bit to recover and feel comfortable in new situations, but you mentioned he was growling at people when you took him on a hike after you first got him. That's a big red flag for me ...especially coming from a young puppy. There are things you could have done to help him past some of that, but I think his genetics would always have been working against you.

From my previous experiences with dogs of this nature, I don't think you're going to convince him that the world and new people are wonderful things. I think he will probably always be inclined to display aggression when he is scared and uncomfortable. I think you can still make some improvement, but should definitely enlist the help of a trainer experienced with dogs like him. Inevitably, I think you will always have to have eyes in the back of your head or never allow him to be in a situation where he can bite again.

If you would like to discuss some behavior modification techniques or ways you might be able to help him, PM me your phone number and I will call and help as much as I can.


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## Ashley Scott (Feb 9, 2012)

I haven't read the previous thread hardly at all, so I don't know if this has been addressed at all, but I think any sort of bitework is totally out. Some folks have a theory of teaching them a controlled outlet for their aggression. I disagree totally, and think that you're making a dangerous dog more efficient at biting people if you do any sort of bitework.

That being said, it sounds like you have a dog that is going to be strict management the rest of his life. So IMO you have 2 options.

1) Euthanasia. While it sucks, it really is the best option sometimes. The trainer in me says that every dog can be "fixed" if put into the perfect situation. Reality is that there is no perfect situation. AT BEST, he is going to be under strict management for a really long time, but more likely the rest of his life. Management WILL fail. Are you ready and willing to accept the consequences of your aggressive dog? What if he bite, mauls or even kills a young child. While you don't think that will happen, you just don't know with him at this point.

2) Strict management and professional help. You said yourself that you are a green handler. This problem is above a green handler. You need strict management, so that he isn't in situations to practice the bad behavior. Every time he gets a chance to behave like that, he perfects it, and it's just a matter of time till he seriously hurts someone. You need a hire a professional trainer/behavior specialist/behaviorist/whatever they call feel the need to call themselves and get onto a program to set him up for success. 

I have had success with cases like his, but it takes a TON of work. You wont be able to go on vacation as putting him into boarding will back him backslide. You life will revolve around him for awhile if you're serious about getting him "right". 

Personally, I'd look for a really experienced positive re-enforcement trainer for this. IMO (and opinions are like assholes, everyone has one), but putting a prong or e-collar on this dog is going to make him so much worse. From the sounds of it he needs confidence and trust building exercises, not harsh corrections for expressing himself the only way he knows how. Feel free to toss me a PM if you need a trainer recommendation or have any questions.

-Ashley


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

Much better description of both the dog and yourself as a handler. The situation at the vet is what stands out the most. Vets can be the worst at handling dogs esp aggres or protection trained. A good vet is worth their weight in gold. 

I see a lot of things differently because I worked with a guy who specialized in bull breeds. I saw him take dogs I thought we complete POS nerve bags in make some nice dogs out of. Made me change my ideas of defense oriented dogs 100%. 

Guys like them are very hard to find and becoming extinct. I'm glad I had the opportunity to learn from him. 

As for you dog and the future. What sticks out here is your not describing this behavior while on the bite which is we're it should be shining through even in prey of the dog was as bad as many here think. I you have prey and confidence while in prey you have something to work with.


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

What to do now? Serious soul searching. The most difficult situations are what to do with working dogs if they can't cut it. I had to put down the best potential working dog I had in years due to a Health issue. The dog just would not have made a pet even with me. You can't keep them all though. 

So if you really want a working dog and don't want to deal with what you have or what you have doesn't fit your lifestyle do what you got to do. Re-home if you can which will be very very tough or PTS. Or you could work hard by this dog and when your living situation improves and you can have another dog go look for the one you want.


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

Your situation is not uncommon. I have a dog right now under similar situations. Very nice young couple, dog of poor breeding, and handlers that we're not ready or able to deal with it. It's unfortunate but a big problem. 

It begins with the people who bred the dog in the first place, then people with good intentions get in over their head, and if their is no one able to step in and clean up the mess, the dog suffers.

Last point for me is I notices you did a lot of reading and Internet research. This is a gut check question. When you described the muzzling taking to a park and correcting, did you come up with that yourself or did someone tell you to do it?

If you did it yourself you made a mistake. New handlers make mistakes and if this is the case I owe someone an apOlogy. If you were told to do it my statements stand. 

I don't think he is a lost cause and have a feeling he is not as dangerous as he is being made out to be with proper handling and some common sense. 

Good luck I whatever you decide and feel free to hit me up if you want some advice.


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Chris Keister said:


> The situation at the vet is what stands out the most. Vets can be the worst at handling dogs esp aggres or protection trained. A good vet is worth their weight in gold.


What stood out for me is the dog releasing himself...


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

Agreed lost track of that while writing my post.


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## Justin Anzalone (Aug 1, 2011)

Chris Keister said:


> Your situation is not uncommon. I have a dog right now under similar situations. Very nice young couple, dog of poor breeding, and handlers that we're not ready or able to deal with it. It's unfortunate but a big problem.
> 
> It begins with the people who bred the dog in the first place, then people with good intentions get in over their head, and if their is no one able to step in and clean up the mess, the dog suffers.
> 
> ...


I can't point to a person who said "take the dog to the park, muzzle it, and correct the shit out of it" nor is that really what I do.

I do muzzle the dog while I'm at the park because 'new' stimuli tend to set him off. He's no longer wary of people running by us, or even people biking by us. He gives them a look, I tell him 'no', to heel, and he complies.

On Saturday when we went to the park, there were three flare ups where he showed aggression:

1. I was sitting on a park bench with him in a sit next to me. A person came running by bouncing a basketball, and it excited him and his excitement quickly turns into aggression if he's not redirected, so he lunged at the guy and almost made contact with his paws. He was muzzled at this point.

2. We had walked about a quarter of a mile muzzle-free. During this time we had passed kids as close as a foot who were riding bikes and he had not shown any interest. Again sitting at a park bench, a woman came flying by on roller blades being pulled by her dog. This was much more sudden. I grabbed the leash where it meets his collar and gave him a 'down' command. I believe it took forcefully using the leash to bring him to the ground.

3. A woman stopped us while walking and began to chastise me for walking my dog with a muzzle, saying she thought it 'humiliated the dog'. I told her he was human aggressive and it was just a safety precaution. At this point he was in a 'down-stay' and minding his own business. The woman was being a total idiot, saying it must have been fought in the past (how that relates to human aggression is beyond me) and then says "He doesn't look very aggressive" and proceeds to do a kind of jump-squat down to his level right in his face. He immediately lunged at her and probably came about 6 inches from her face. I immediately put him back into a down-stay and was furious with the woman for basically provoking the dog after I had told her that we were working on his issues, and that she had absolutely not done me any favor by testing her theory that the dog was not aggressive. However, Raynor immediately went into a down stay and was not aggressive toward her for the remainder of our conversation.

I emphasize the last little bit to stress that I am able to maintain control over him. He is however, extremely reactive to stimuli, and certain people. (That woman was obviously afraid of him, and he was feeding off of it). Because of traditional heel position, when I am at the park, he is on my left not 'curbed' like you would see in the city, and despite bikes whizzing by him and people jogging by, he is not looking to engage them. It is however the unique variable (basketball, roller blades, etc.) that can and do excite him. This is why I did begin muzzling him and taking him to public places. I felt that exposure to these situations would help to raise the threshold of his fear aggression. I must say so far, for me it proving successful, as when we started initially going to the park, he was much more skittish and willing to lunge at bikes, people, etc.


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## Justin Anzalone (Aug 1, 2011)

Doug Zaga said:


> What stood out for me is the dog releasing himself...


One valuable lesson I learned from this is to just make sure I am there for any new encounters.


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## Lynda Myers (Jul 16, 2008)

Justin I feel for ya man, I really do. But the best thing for all involved is to put Reynor down. There are too many good (real) pits out there in rescue that need loving families. Besides as a few have said Pits are outlawed in many areas. However, people have made great strides in reversing some of those laws regarding pitbulls. Your dog has the potential to negatively affect the good they've been able to do in your area should there be a serious mishap with your boy. And accidents do happen thats why their called accidents. Unfortunately the public and media don't give pits the benefit of a doubt or a pass. I've owned several pits and love them. They are wonderful dogs capable of whatever their owners have a mind to train them to do. Would have one now expect their ban here in wentzville. Of course you have to do to suit yourself. But remember the possible outcome could effect more than just your dog...the breed could suffer if something ugly happen with your dog. And the ground gained for the breed lost.


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## Esther Chai (Feb 18, 2009)

Justin, having read most of your postings, I think you are doing a good job with Reynor so far. In taking all necessary precautions and learning to modify the behaviour of your first "problematic" dog as best you can with good advice from knowleadgeable trainers/ handlers is very positive. I believe if you can carry on as far as you can, you will find your own answer for the decision you will have to make for Reynor. I bet whatever you learn from this will be an invaluable experience for your future plans to become a competition handler/ decoy. Stay safe and all the best.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

tough situation mate.Its really hard to get a feel of how bad he is on the net but the last incident at lunging at people and him emptying his bowels at vets that sound like a really easily stressed dog.There fore lunging at people obviously isnt dominant aggresion its a nervy reactive aggression.Its not uncommon for some lines of pits to be nervy i had many who were but not to this extent they would run away from some one instead of trying to bite because thats not in a pits nature.


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

Justin Anzalone said:


> However, Raynor immediately went into a down stay and was not aggressive toward her for the remainder of our conversation.


That's a shame. :-({|=:roll::-\"

ANYWAYS...


The thing that strikes me about these situations is that they seem to happen when he's "doing nothing". Would you say that's true? Give him something to concentrate on and he has a place to put all that (nervous) energy.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

After owning my fear aggressive cattle dog I will never not socialise a dog, working or not. I like to socialise them to the environment, with the hustle and bustle and different noises, sounds , people. Doesnt have to be lots of people grabbing the dog and putting the puppy under undue stress. I just get out and about, down to the docks, dog club or whatever. No idea why someone would recommend not to.

Never had a problem with dogs not focussing on me and work and they are much less distracted by their environment if they are not worried by it. I also like to start some obedience and focus training early. Doesnt have to be long or intense.

I also feel for you after working my butt off for years with my fear aggressive dog. Made big improvements, but management was always the key and I had to be much more vigilant that with my current lot who are completely at ease in most environments and in the main are completely neutral to strangers, especially when working. 

The key for me was excellent obedience skills and keeping the dog below threshold and gradually upping the level of stimulation I exposed her too. In the end we could heel down a crowded main street with no incident. Didnt mean I totally trusted her though and I could never completely relax my guard. There are always those incidents that are totally unexpected, that I know my current dogs would most likely recover from almost instantly, if they reacted at all, but a dog that is a little unstable, it is much more debateable.


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

I'm not sure if any one else has noticed, but in ALL of the scenarios the OP gives the dog is lunging out at or trying to grab things/people that are either walking, moving, or rolling by or toward him as he and the handler are sitting or standing or not moving. Please correct me if I am wrong OP. You also post that he didn't even bother people or children that passed calmly within a foot of you both. Is his behaviour really that unpredictable? It almost sounds like he is trying to chase after or lunge after swiftly moving things or prey movement. Or, that these things are moving swiftly towards him and he is terrified of the thing and the speed at which it's coming. I've not seen too many dogs that are unpredictable. One can almost always tell if/when a dog is going to react. It's almost always revealed in their body language. If you don't have a lot of experience w/ dogs you may not be "reading" him properly. He definitely sounds "sharp." Jumps or lunges or coils to sudden or swift movement, sounds, or incidents. But, is he really as unpredictable as you are saying? If someone approaches you in a very relaxed manner and does not look at or address the dog at all. Does he behave in the same fashion as he does when a jogger, runner, basketball, roller blader whizzes by? Just food for thought. As everyone has already mentioned, you CAN NOT learn to train a dog effectively over the internet though there are a great many research tools on it. It sounds like you've found some sound materials and some have even worked in your favor. It can not, however, teach you to properly read a dog's body language and/or interpret all its behaviours. Someone w/ that kind of experience has to guide you. Have you sought the services of an experienced trainer? Perhaps with someone that has extensive knowledge w/ this breed? If not that's what you need to do. Someone also mentioned euthanasia, which, again, if the dog is what you say he is, should be a strong consideration. Good luck w/ you and your dogs future. I hope he gets the intervention he requires (training, socialization, positive, negative, euthanized...) whatever that may be.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Maybe he has an eye problem, thus the moving objects....maybe he has a brain fart....maybe the dog does what he does. There are no unpredictable dogs, even those are predictably unpredictable. Time to fish or cut bait. :wink:


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Maybe he has an eye problem, thus the moving objects....maybe he has a brain fart....maybe the dog does what he does. There are no unpredictable dogs, even those are predictably unpredictable. Time to fish or cut bait. :wink:


Absolutely there are unpredictable dogs, they're just *extremely* rare. Come hang out in Philly, you'll see some truly neurologically unpredictable dogs, especially "pits".


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

Yep pits can be seemingly unpredictable and difficult to read even for experienced handlers. My dog does not give off any significant bady language when he decides he wants another dog. Their is a very slight look in his eyes and you can see him process the decision in is head. 

I focused on the training style in the first thread, now we have a better picture o the dog itself. I have gleaned some information about you as a handler as well. Gonna give some observations on you here Justin. 

I think you are one of those guys who "wants to do it themselves". Whenever I see someone focus a lot on buying books and vids it throws up a red flag. Not that there is anything wrong with that and learned quite a bit from these sources as well. 

I have major issues with Milan and won't cloud the thread with those opinions but I will say you should throw his book away and disregard anything you have "gleaned" from him.


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

As for leerburg most of his stuff absent Ellis is pretty outdated. Old school training does still have a place in the world but I believe you are not applying these types of techniques correctly and there are better ways to go about what you are trying to do. 

As for dominant dog collars if you watch the Milan video I posted he had a kinds of crap on that dog when he brought him to OJ. The first thing OJ did was take it all off. There was a reason he did this. I know OJ and competed against him and his students in PSA back in the day. 

I really hope you pay some close attention to that video. Your dog has prey and confidence in that prey. That is the direction you should be going IMO. The other thing he states pretty clearly is the fact you have to do these things in a controlled environment for the dog to trust you. 

The scenarios you describe are not controlled environments. You have the right idea about exposure and sounds like you are having some success but you are going to fast and placing the dog in positions to fail. Then correcting for the behavior. That is not going to build trust. 

It is your responsibility to keep you dog out of trouble. You are going to run into stupid people all the time. It is your job to keep him out of scenarios that will get him in trouble. With that lady and what happened that was totally your fault. If you have people try and engage you and your dog you must be assertive even to the point of being an asshole if that is what it takes to keep your dog safe and progress with your training. 

You should be exposing your dog but it should be at distances and through his prey drive. I mean playing tug with him while stimuli is around at a distance. Then you gradually decrease that distance and increase the stimuli is a controlled environment. 

I strongly encourage you to pay keen attention to the video I posted and follow your trainers suggestions to the T. Don't go doing things on your own and "see what happens". Your dog is still very young and what you need to acomplish takes a long time. 

Every time your dog gets put in a position as you describe with the woman or rollerblader. You are backsliding. You may think you are progressing by forcing control over the dog but you are not treating the root of the problem.


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

I agree with others here and their observations that movement seems to trigger the behaviors which to means there is prey aggression involved here as well. Additionally Jackie pointed out the dog does this more when he is at a rest and his mind is not occupied with something. 

I will keep going back the Milan video and what OJ is explaining. Trust focus and prey is the key here and you can greatly improve how you are handling these situations compared to how you are describing it now.


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## Justin Anzalone (Aug 1, 2011)

Chris Keister said:


> As for leerburg most of his stuff absent Ellis is pretty outdated. Old school training does still have a place in the world but I believe you are not applying these types of techniques correctly and there are better ways to go about what you are trying to do.
> 
> As for dominant dog collars if you watch the Milan video I posted he had a kinds of crap on that dog when he brought him to OJ. The first thing OJ did was take it all off. There was a reason he did this. I know OJ and competed against him and his students in PSA back in the day.
> 
> ...


Thanks... I needed to hear that... I appreciate you calling me out on my mistakes.


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

Never mind I'll stop trying to help you. 

Good luck dude.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

> The scenarios you describe are not controlled environments. You have the right idea about exposure and sounds like you are having some success but you are going to fast and placing the dog in positions to fail. Then correcting for the behavior. That is not going to build trust.


Don't agree with that at all. Dogs are not stupid. Setting em up to fail is exactly the way many things are trained for real when the handler is not standing over the dog. The dogs still trust mthe handler.....and they trust that he may show up out of the blue any second and catch him commiting an infraction. After he realizes that avoiding the infraction is a sweet deal, the dog has no distrust of the handler. Long story short, trust is being built and the dog is actually being trained rather than conditioned.


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## Justin Anzalone (Aug 1, 2011)

​


Chris Keister said:


> Never mind I'll stop trying to help you.
> 
> Good luck dude.


Don't know if you thought I was being sarcastic, but my post was sincere.


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## Meena Moitra (Jul 11, 2008)

Justin I so feel for you. You write as though your heart wishes reason could prevail and a positive solution could be found for the dog. But your head must know the tremendous risk and price attached. Do you wish to be that dedicated to the dog, constantly preventing it from getting to a place where it can kill, as it seems it would.


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

Justin Anzalone said:


> ​
> Don't know if you thought I was being sarcastic, but my post was sincere.


Ok my bad. Difficulty with forums sometimes no inflection with the written word. Thanks for the clarification and I am sincere in wishing you luck


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Don't agree with that at all. Dogs are not stupid. Setting em up to fail is exactly the way many things are trained for real when the handler is not standing over the dog. The dogs still trust mthe handler.....and they trust that he may show up out of the blue any second and catch him commiting an infraction. After he realizes that avoiding the infraction is a sweet deal, the dog has no distrust of the handler. Long story short, trust is being built and the dog is actually being trained rather than conditioned.


I think it very much depends on the problem. I would agree with Chris on this one with a fear aggressive dog. My fear aggressive dog actually got worse with setting her up to fail which I why I sought help from an experienced trainer. I had to go through a process of almost rewiring or conditioning her to be a lot more comfortable in situations she found stressful. Increasing her tolerance level through the process of desensitisation and counter conditioning. 

I believe that you just have to accept that it is going to take time with a dog like this, something you just cant rush this and expect the dog to be fixed. I dont think it helps at all to continually put the dog in a situation that takes it into its reaction zone, dogs find it hard to learn when they are in this siutation and the problem becomes more entrenched and reinforced. 

I dont think an unstable dog learns to trust the fact that the owner will turn up out of the blue, I think their hardwired reaction would override that, especially in that split second that they react. I dont think you are adressing the real root of the problem that way. I think in these situations you need a blend of conditioning and training, which is where experience with working with these dogs is a must to tap into.

I found reading and videos only takes you part of the way. Not something I would try to deal with on my own.

As to pit bulls, a friend of mine had a pittie with a fantastic temperament, great with people and also pretty tolerant with other dogs. My friend did recognise on occassions a hard look in her eye when a strange dog would keep interfering and challenging her for her ball and made sure those types of interactions were ended quickly.


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

When you set a dog up to fail in this type of situation you are setting the dog up to win as well. Everytime the dog lunges in fear and the person reacts by backing off or leaving, the dog just learned this is the solution to his fears. The more often you allow this to happened the more it is instilled in the dog that it worked and the worse and harder it becomes to fix. You can correct the dog after it happened but you are fighting against the fact that the dog just made his fear go away by acting out... Plus the chances he is in his right frame or even the owner is probably slim and now you are adding to the stress and negativity the dog feels in the situation, again potentially making it worse. It needs to he worked on at the root and built upon as suggested. Jmo


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Sara Waters said:


> I think it very much depends on the problem. I would agree with Chris on this one with a fear aggressive dog. My fear aggressive dog actually got worse with setting her up to fail which I why I sought help from an experienced trainer. I had to go through a process of almost rewiring or conditioning her to be a lot more comfortable in situations she found stressful. Increasing her tolerance level through the process of desensitisation and counter conditioning.
> 
> I believe that you just have to accept that it is going to take time with a dog like this, something you just cant rush this and expect the dog to be fixed. I dont think it helps at all to continually put the dog in a situation that takes it into its reaction zone, dogs find it hard to learn when they are in this siutation and the problem becomes more entrenched and reinforced.
> 
> ...


It ok to agree with Chris Sarah, but, I believe he changed hois stance to the was not fear aggression but prey agression. Totally different way to handle it. IMO of course.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

tracey delin said:


> When you set a dog up to fail in this type of situation you are setting the dog up to win as well. Everytime the dog lunges in fear and the person reacts by backing off or leaving, the dog just learned this is the solution to his fears. The more often you allow this to happened the more it is instilled in the dog that it worked and the worse and harder it becomes to fix. You can correct the dog after it happened but you are fighting against the fact that the dog just made his fear go away by acting out... Plus the chances he is in his right frame or even the owner is probably slim and now you are adding to the stress and negativity the dog feels in the situation, again potentially making it worse. It needs to he worked on at the root and built upon as suggested. Jmo


It has to be a very controlled situation at first Tracey. No one backs of or leaves, and the handle DOES NOT ALLOW THE DOG TO LUNGE OR MOVE FORWARD. He is corrected in no uncertain terms. Doesn't take long for the dog to learn his best option is to comply. Just got to keep from getting bit in the process. This is a situation for zero tolerance and should be treat with zero tolerance rather than pussy footing around with the dog. Won't take long to determine what to do with the dog or if he is salvageable. This is a dog with no animal aggression but people aggression....doesn't sound like any pits I know.


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Different opinion on how to handle... But I agree not a good apbt temperament

I admit I haven't read all of it but one part that sticks out to me is that it only happens when he handles the dog which sounds created.... Or maybe exasperated is a better term. If this is true, there is something about their relationship that is already stressing the dog, Id go a different way then stressing it further.


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

Ron I did not change my stance I just stated prey Agression is probably part of the equation. Defense oriented or fear Agression is the main issue. Add preyagression to the mix and yes those are the scariest dogs. 

Stop twisting words and stirring shit. I'm trying to help the kid.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Chris, with all due respect, you got a pit/boxer mix that has animal aggression...nothing to be surprized at there. All pits classically should show animal aggression. Your vids looked great on the obedience training. No one ever said pits couldn't be trained for ob, but, when you put up a vid of that dog off leash at the dog park, I will will say you know more than all those you said don't know shit about handling dogs like this. It isn't about ob training, it is what is inherent in the dog. The op has not got a dog that shows anything it should. It is people aggressive, not animal aggressive. You will never be able to take your pit mix to the animal park off leash any more than the op will be able to trust this dog with people.


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

I'm not going to argue with you Don I'm more concerned with helpIng this kid. You should get your facts straight before posting though.


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Chris, with all due respect, you got a pit/boxer mix that has animal aggression...nothing to be surprized at there. All pits classically should show animal aggression. Your vids looked great on the obedience training. No one ever said pits couldn't be trained for ob, but, when you put up a vid of that dog off leash at the dog park, I will will say you know more than all those you said don't know shit about handling dogs like this. It isn't about ob training, it is what is inherent in the dog. The op has not got a dog that shows anything it should. It is people aggressive, not animal aggressive. You will never be able to take your pit mix to the animal park off leash any more than the op will be able to trust this dog with people.


I think Hell just froze over because I agree with you, Don.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> I think Hell just froze over because I agree with you, Don.


+1 on that one. 

One thing to remember is that it's one thing for a dog to be predictably anti-social all the time. Then you know you can never let your guard down. It's another for a dog to be "unpredictably unpredictable." And that's what I believe we have here, especially as a young dog. Sometimes he's okay, sometimes he's not. Maybe in the future he will be okay with people he's been with in the past, but maybe he won't. We don't know. I agree that if he's allowed to lunge and hackle and bark at people that scare him for reasons only known to him, that's actually self rewarding and empowering. And not in a good way. "Hey, I barked and made a show of being scary and it made the bad people go away!"


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> I think Hell just froze over because I agree with you, Don.


I think Hell will freeze over when he agrees with you. :lol::lol::lol:


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Don Turnipseed said:


> It ok to agree with Chris Sarah, but, I believe he changed hois stance to the was not fear aggression but prey agression. Totally different way to handle it. IMO of course.


For just prey aggression yes I tend to handle it differently, in the context of a dog that is too rough on livestock for example. I simply dont tolerate that, end of story. 

But I think there is a whole lot going on with this dog with fear aggression in the mix.


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## Kristin Countryman (Oct 13, 2010)

Lynda Myers said:


> Justin I feel for ya man, I really do. But the best thing for all involved is to put Reynor down. There are too many good (real) pits out there in rescue that need loving families. Besides as a few have said Pits are outlawed in many areas. However, people have made great strides in reversing some of those laws regarding pitbulls. Your dog has the potential to negatively affect the good they've been able to do in your area should there be a serious mishap with your boy. And accidents do happen thats why their called accidents. Unfortunately the public and media don't give pits the benefit of a doubt or a pass. I've owned several pits and love them. They are wonderful dogs capable of whatever their owners have a mind to train them to do. Would have one now expect their ban here in wentzville. Of course you have to do to suit yourself. But remember the possible outcome could effect more than just your dog...the breed could suffer if something ugly happen with your dog. And the ground gained for the breed lost.


Good Post! Very True


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Anyone ever seen the movie "Roadhouse"? The line in there that fits terriers to a tee is "Be nice, always be nice....until it is time to not be nice". When terriers go into kill mode they are like no dog most people have worked with. Being in an emotional state, such as Chris was when he came on this thread is not conducive to helping a green handler near as much as it is helping him feel good. Justin is getting bad advice regarding training this dog and eventually it will get him into big trouble...but then it will be his trouble, not the ones rendering emotional advice. Onhe thing you can count on with dogs, if they did something once and got by with it, they will do it again.....just a matter of when. I been around terriers most of my life.....a loose cannon with people is bad news. Simple as that. No need to try to analyze the "why", or the "what kind of aggression" people are so fond of doing today. It doesn't really matter why ? The dog gets off on biting people...it is what it is. The dog is an accident looking for a place to happen and as an adult, it will only take once.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Justin,

Get off the internet and find a trainer who can evaluate your dog in person. Euthanizing him may be the best thing to do for both of you
BUT I sure wouldn't do it based on internet advise from people that have never seen your dog in person.


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## Justin Anzalone (Aug 1, 2011)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Justin,
> 
> Get off the internet and find a trainer who can evaluate your dog in person. Euthanizing him may be the best thing to do for both of you
> BUT I sure wouldn't do it based on internet advise from people that have never seen your dog in person.


That is the plan, but I think it's worth hearing others experiences and their results, even if every case is different.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

hey justin

there is a Sit Means Sit franchise in the St. Louis area. Maybe call that guy and see if he deals with dogs like this...coudlnt hurt to check it out...some of the SMS guys do deal with these types of issues with dogs of this type.


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

Also, take into account that this may not be all pit. The OP stated the dog is over 70lbs. and his dad is blue in color and somewhere close to 90lbs, if I remember correctly. Please forgive me if thats a misquote. So whatever else is in there I'm sure is affecting the temperament of the dog. This is one of the reasons I am not a fan of adding certain breeds to the pit bull lineage to get a blue color or a larger dog or whatever the reason. You run the risk of ruining its temperament. I think male pits max weight is somehwere around 65lbs. Anything too far over that and its probably something else. Don't get me wrong, every now and then a brood pit somewhere will throw a bigger dog, but pit bull TERRIERS are not commonly 70 - 90lbs. I'm no expert, but I thought terriers are supposed to be able to go to ground. One might find it quite difficult at that weight. True pits are true to their temperaments as all have already mentioned, so it might be a good idea to get rid of him and get a pit that's more true to its working breed standard. Again I wish you the best in your decision.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Justin,

My take on all of this is to cease putting him in situations that he can't handle and risking disaster. Also, cease with the bite/tug work stuff until you get a handle on what is going on. I'm not sure what his triggers are but that fact that they have happened with you instead of the girlfriend raise a couple of different type of scenarios. I've seen the helpers and their work around here. One of things you have to look at is whether the dog is in prey when he is being work regardless of the helpers intentions as to how they are affecting the dog prey vs. defense. If the helper worked him and said he needed confidence then that tells me that some portion of that work wasn't all fun and games or just prey. The dog felt pressured and didn't react with confidence. With that type of work you are putting the dog in a state of mind and you have no idea how he generalizes it to other aspects of life. In one aspect of life, you put him in that state and he is praised. Lets say he goes to that state of mind in another aspect of life and he is muzzled and corrected. He may not be able to differentiate one from the other on top of what his temperament issues are which were displayed when you initially picked him up. So, no bite work, period would be my take on it. Figure out his flight/fight/reaction zone around people and stay outside of it and build positive associations and you may be able to slowly decrease that zone. The only dog I ever put down was a mixed breed that from a baby puppy increasingly started exhibited rage behaviors. I was prepared to keep him away from others. The problem came when his rage was directed at me--totally unpredictable. Some things you can't fix and I'm not one to deal with bite the hand that feeds you. 

Terrasita


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Justin,
> 
> My take on all of this is to cease putting him in situations that he can't handle and risking disaster. Also, cease with the bite/tug work stuff until you get a handle on what is going on. I'm not sure what his triggers are but that fact that they have happened with you instead of the girlfriend raise a couple of different type of scenarios. I've seen the helpers and their work around here. One of things you have to look at is whether the dog is in prey when he is being work regardless of the helpers intentions as to how they are affecting the dog prey vs. defense. If the helper worked him and said he needed confidence then that tells me that some portion of that work wasn't all fun and games or just prey. The dog felt pressured and didn't react with confidence. With that type of work you are putting the dog in a state of mind and you have no idea how he generalizes it to other aspects of life. In one aspect of life, you put him in that state and he is praised. Lets say he goes to that state of mind in another aspect of life and he is muzzled and corrected. He may not be able to differentiate one from the other on top of what his temperament issues are which were displayed when you initially picked him up. So, no bite work, period would be my take on it. Figure out his flight/fight/reaction zone around people and stay outside of it and build positive associations and you may be able to slowly decrease that zone. The only dog I ever put down was a mixed breed that from a baby puppy increasingly started exhibited rage behaviors. I was prepared to keep him away from others. The problem came when his rage was directed at me--totally unpredictable. Some things you can't fix and I'm not one to deal with bite the hand that feeds you.
> 
> Terrasita


I can honestly say I agree with most of this, at least all the parts about not doing bite work with this dog, especially considering the type of public interactions that you are expecting him to incur..and your capabilities as a handler..and that is just based on what Justin has said about the dog and himself, regardless of all the theories and guesses.

If you like pitbull type dogs and want to do PSA, there are great dogs available. Dogs that are stable enough that can be worked in all manners of work, prey OR defense and make great trustable family dogs...


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

So as an update, after discussing this with everyone involved (Justin, the decoy, and the club), we're not doing anything for the foreseeable future with the dog even remotely resembling bitework. Not that we were before, it was more drive building with a rag or tug mostly all on a flirt pole or a line, but for liability in case the dog does bite someone, that it could said that he had any sort of "attack dog training" or anything similar. Again, I do not believe this was a problem created in "bite work" and is more of an underlying temperament problem. We'll be doing some training on Saturday with obedience in an unfamiliar location, so we'll see how this goes.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Anyone ever seen the movie "Roadhouse"? The line in there that fits terriers to a tee is "Be nice, always be nice....until it is time to not be nice". When terriers go into kill mode they are like no dog most people have worked with. Being in an emotional state, such as Chris was when he came on this thread is not conducive to helping a green handler near as much as it is helping him feel good. Justin is getting bad advice regarding training this dog and eventually it will get him into big trouble...but then it will be his trouble, not the ones rendering emotional advice. Onhe thing you can count on with dogs, if they did something once and got by with it, they will do it again.....just a matter of when. I been around terriers most of my life.....a loose cannon with people is bad news. Simple as that. No need to try to analyze the "why", or the "what kind of aggression" people are so fond of doing today. It doesn't really matter why ? The dog gets off on biting people...it is what it is. The dog is an accident looking for a place to happen and as an adult, it will only take once.


Another good post Don and very true about when terriers go into that mode and when a pit goes there not many people can keep a level head and deal with it.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Justin, I would put him up until you get with someone that specializes in Pit Bull type of aggression. Lose the e-collar and prong and don't have him in situations where he needs a muzzle because you are worried about liability. As was indicated, making him defenseless could make him worse but if you are going to vet or something, muzzle or err on the side of keeping him and others safe. I say lose the e-collar and prong because pain amps to aggression. Depending on the dog, you could only be fueling the fire. You can obedience train at home. He doesn't sound like he can be a sport dog in any fashion so obedience house manners is all that I would think of. If you are careful, he should never have another opportunity for an unjustified bite. Keep him as a house pet and if you're lucky his issues are with strangers only and would never extend to you or who you live with. I wouldn't take a chance with house visitors either since you say he is unpredictable. If you could read him, you would be able to stop this before it even started. 

Terrasita


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

Justin I have read over some of the responses and not sure what your ultimate decision is going to be-you need to do what is best for you and your family- this is a very difficult situation to be in, especially with an inexperienced Handler- I understand the reasoning for it, but get tired of people stating get rid of him, put him down as the only solution .....I heard all of those same suggestions when I took in a GSD, at 18 months, who was facing a bullet, due to his aggression and biting problems- thankfully I had the facility to house the dog and I was able to find the guys in Reddick who know well how to deal with the aggressive/unbalanced dog- we worked with My Cammo boy and he came along beautifully,we started him all over, as if he were a 8 week old pup, muzzle when you have to for safety -keep him away from others when you have to but also exposing him to as much stuff as we could at a safe distance, we started with Table training- since he was a biter, we also concentrated on teaching him when it was ok to bite...and when it is NOT....you will have to find someone who is able to do the same, not throwing the dog into so much Defense and who can help him build his confidence- so he is not so fearful creating the lunatic response or aggressive due to lack of socialization. If you decide to keep him, you will have to Protect your dog, don't let him get into situations, where he feels out of control and reacts to the situation by biting and be willing to put in the time of training with your obedience being more fun driven than compulsion, especially at first. wish you the best
​


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## Justin Anzalone (Aug 1, 2011)

I just wanted to update this thread. We made the decision to put him down today. As horrible as I feel, I know this was the right decision as the dog was an accident waiting to happen. It hurts unimaginably today, but I know that as time goes on and my life returns to a semblance of normalcy, I will be ok. Thanks to all who took the time to chime in, this decision was not taken lightly. We euthanized him here at home where he is most comfortable, and he will be cremated. Took an imprint of his paw; gone, but not forgotten. RIP Raynor 4/17/2011 - 7/1/2012


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

I'm sorry, Justin. I'm sorry you had to make this tough decision, and glad you were able to do it.
_
" ... this decision was not taken lightly ..."_

No doubt at all about that. 

Hang in there.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Dear Justin, thanks for the update and thanks for giving the dog a humane dignified end. I post to thank you and bump the thread. This breed was invented for human entertainment of the sickest form and have suffered ever since.

Hoping people will read the whole story before increasing demand for thess dogs cos they like the tough image, mostly ends badly, yrs was one of the 'better' endings.

Better days ahead to you.


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

Having to make these decisions IS tough. I have had to do it more times than I care to count. 

I know it sucks but sometimes this is the right decision. I find doing the right thing is almost always more difficult. Not only with dogs but life in general. These are the kinds of life experiences that build character. 

Morn the loss of your friend but don't beat yourself up.


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## kenneth roth (Jul 29, 2010)

Justin Anzalone said:


> I just wanted to update this thread. We made the decision to put him down today. As horrible as I feel, I know this was the right decision as the dog was an accident waiting to happen. It hurts unimaginably today, but I know that as time goes on and my life returns to a semblance of normalcy, I will be ok. Thanks to all who took the time to chime in, this decision was not taken lightly. We euthanized him here at home where he is most comfortable, and he will be cremated. Took an imprint of his paw; gone, but not forgotten. RIP Raynor 4/17/2011 - 7/1/2012


Hunters use pitts for baying hogs, dont be sorry pup wasnt socilized good. I had a aggresive mutt. He got into plenty of fights and tryd to bite people oowned him 6 years, we put him down 2 £years ago, he was lifeless when they put him down. He was an good graud dog tho


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## kenneth roth (Jul 29, 2010)

My brother had two female pitts the old one attatcked the year old pit,he pit down the old one


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## Nick wathen (Feb 26, 2012)

kenneth roth said:


> My brother had two female pitts the old one attatcked the year old pit,he pit down the old one


Now that sounds completely off subject. Obviously you did not read the whole thread. Dog aggression is a completely different issue especially with a breed known to be dog aggressive.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Justin really did try his hardest and explored many options. But the right decision is not always easy and the easy one is not always right. 

Justin, part of Raynor's spirit will be with you always in the clay paw print we did today. Never forget him, but instead look ahead. I always liked this quote that Christie M. has on a lot of her forum signatures:

Be proud of the things that you have taught your dog. Be humbled and grateful for all of the things that your dog has taught you.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Sorry to hear that Justin but be proud of the fact that you made the decision that you weren't going to let the dog spend it's life in a stated of fear and anxiety.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

sorry for your loss.


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## Martin Espericueta (Apr 1, 2006)

I'm sorry for your loss friend


Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk 2


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Sorry for your loss but a brave and a right choice for the better.

As time goes by it will get easier.


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## mike finn (Jan 5, 2011)

I am sure it was a very hard decision for you, but you made the right choice. I have been there and it sucks. You did the right thing.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Justin
sorry about the dog
more sorry that i never read any feedback from the professional help you said was being planned 

Thomas Joby and others mentioned it, resources were suggested, but you never provided feedback that i saw in any threads that would indicate you followed through. hope i'm wrong here

i just hope the decision was made based on some professional input and not a result of family frustration, giving up on the dog and letting the liability fear factor take over....that would not have been the fairest thing to do for the guy IMO


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

rick smith said:


> i just hope the decision was made based on some *professional* input and not a result of family frustration, giving up on the dog and letting the liability fear factor take over....that would not have been the fairest thing to do for the guy IMO


Rick, I'm honestly more than a little personally insulted you would say this.


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## Justin Anzalone (Aug 1, 2011)

rick smith said:


> Justin
> sorry about the dog
> more sorry that i never read any feedback from the professional help you said was being planned
> 
> ...


I don't feel like reliving all the emotions of the past few months all over again, so I will just say that you are wrong.


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Never easy...but I am sure you did what you felt was best.


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## mike finn (Jan 5, 2011)

rick smith said:


> Justin
> sorry about the dog
> more sorry that i never read any feedback from the professional help you said was being planned
> 
> ...


Rick I really do not think you have the right to question this guys decision here. I think he went way above and beyond what would be reasonable for this dog. Why should he keep a dangerous dog and possibly injure someone and lose every thing. I think Marion had first hand experience with this dog and she felt it was the right thing for the dog. I think she would have enough credentials to satisfy almost any one.


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## Holden Sawyer (Feb 22, 2011)

Justin I am so sorry to hear that you had to go through this. It is so traumatic. I've been through it more than once (sadly). If you ever decide to give the breed another chance, feel free to pm me and I might be able to help you with some references. Until then it is going to hurt for awhile but you sure gave him his dignity at his end and really tried.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

did i question his decision ?
NO
i said i was SORRY for the loss and i damn sure meant it
don't put extra words in my mouth please

all i said was i hoped he had done what he said he was gonna do, and it would have been appropriate to relay feedback he might have gotten. as far as i knew that was not done. communication works best when it's two ways

it never hurts to get a second opinion and help from a professional BEFORE making your decision unless of course you have had a lot of experience in these types of cases which i DIDN'T get the impression he had
- i don't take these situations lightly and neither should anyone else ... i've been there and it is gut wrenching to decide to kill a perfectly healthy dog...if it isn't, all i can say is you have no gut

if he wasn't looking for help why would he start the thread in the first place ?
of course i'm sorry for HIM AND his family and anyone else who loved the dog, but i am even more sorry for the dog 
- it's dead

with more feedback there might have even been insight passed on that would have helped someone who might have to face the same decision

reality is not always easy to deal with 

i wrote SPECIFICALLY i hoped i was WRONG ... he said i WAS ... I believe him and we'll leave it at that

i hope he doesn't feel insulted by my post because it certainly wasn't meant to be. it came from my heart and and was considered seriously before i posted it


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I won't speak for Justin, but you are insulting ME because I was this dog's vet. I am not a board certified specialist in behavior, but I am pretty damn qualified for a general practitioner. My professional opinion was that the dog's temperament was highly unstable and progressing closer to an actual bite, which could have been devastating. I was also not the only experienced trainer he worked with either. Suggesting I'd lightly agree to euthanize an otherwise healthy dog at the drop of a hat is HIGHLY insulting to me. 

Did anyone else offer to travel out to evaluate the dog? No. Did anyone else offer to take the dog on and see what they could do? No. But there's no lack of opinions from some folks that the dog could have been saved...sight unseen of course. :roll:


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## Cassandra Lane (Jul 2, 2010)

I'm so sorry for your loss. You did the best thing you could and it truly shows how much you cared for him - you set him free of his demons.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

When all the raw hurt and emotion heals i will look forward to some objective discussion and debate on the GENERAL topic — not to pick ln Justin. 

Justin could lead the debate turn a negative into a positive and save some dogs lives.

I mean all the strategie we ever got was one vet and a small number oftrainers seen the dog and their opinion was enough to sentencd the dog to death. Like Rick insensitively but correctly pointed out theproblem was posted here and the final solution was and nothing in between, frankly mike and maren THAT aint fair eithet, what was the point of posting in the first place.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

So what kind of opinion would you have preferred? When animal control and a judge rules the dog aggressive AFTER the dog bites somebody and wants it destroyed? I won't go into details, but as Justin said, it was a matter of not if but when. 

He was euthanized in his own home in a peaceful manner being loved on, not after spending 10 days cowering in fear in quarantine isolation, being catch poled, and destroyed by animal control after biting someone. Because that was the road he was going down.

You guys can speculate and give all the opinion you want as all good internet experts love to do, but you are not the ones who lives with the consequences.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

appeal to emotions and attack on credibility, you should be in politics. Out of respect to Justin im off this.

Mebbe an actual training thread might emerge.


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## Justin Anzalone (Aug 1, 2011)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> When all the raw hurt and emotion heals i will look forward to some objective discussion and debate on the GENERAL topic — not to pick ln Justin.
> 
> Justin could lead the debate turn a negative into a positive and save some dogs lives.
> 
> I mean all the strategie we ever got was one vet and a small number oftrainers seen the dog and their opinion was enough to sentencd the dog to death. Like Rick insensitively but correctly pointed out theproblem was posted here and the final solution was and nothing in between, frankly mike and maren THAT aint fair eithet, what was the point of posting in the first place.


Mike and Maren were not the only ones who evaluated the dog, though I think it is a bit irrelevant. He was sent to the Tom Rose school for two weeks, where he bonded with one trainer, but had to be muzzled around everyone else. As his confidence grew, his willingness to lash out at other people and animals grew as well.

Here is a small list of people who have seen/evaluated him:

Maren Bell Jones
Scott Schroeder
Keri Koch
Jake Kemp
Dylan Squires
Kevin Goede


I liken Raynor to the 1st dog described in this thread, only about 10x worse:

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f30/what-dogs-taught-you-most-24306/

The dog was extremely anti social. The sad thing was that you could see he _wanted_ to be social sometimes, but there was a fear that grew inside and once he went beyond, there was no turning back.

I truly believe there are some neurological things that we cannot control. There was no 'cure' for this behavior. 

I took a picture of the entryway to my condo to give an illustration of the proximity that I am to my neighbors.

The sales office from my condo is in my building, and the model home is on my floor. So I couldn't control his exposure to other people. I didn't have that luxury right now. And with an APBT, you really are held to a higher standard.

Yesterday I felt extremely guilty and was torn up inside. But today, I honestly have felt better than I have felt in almost a year. I won't forget what he taught me, so as to not have let his life be in vain.










And a final picture of where he loved to be, out in the forest, where he could put his nose to the ground, find some bones, and them bring them to me. He would have made an excellent SAR rescue dog, if only he had the proper temperament.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

_"I truly believe there are some neurological things that we cannot control."_


So do I.

All we can do is our best. We get the best info we can get, we evaluate it as well as we can, we weigh, we think, we make a tough decision.


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## Martin Espericueta (Apr 1, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> All we can do is our best. We get the best info we can get, we evaluate it as well as we can, we weigh, we think, we make a tough decision.


Perfectly said....

Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk 2


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

I would love to be the kind of dog trainer that can reform and handle any dog, but I'm not. I was in a similar situation to Justin years ago and made the same decision. It was not that I did not love my dog, or that I thought he was beyond redemption, but simply that I was not able because of my personal situation and my level of training experience to guarantee that my dog would not bite someone. The dog had been through enough handlers in his life that passing him off to someone else was not a solution, though that was moot as no one wanted him. 

Justin, I know it was a difficult decision and not made lightly. Sorry for the loss of your dog.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Justin, thank you for the update. So often questions or issues are presented here that we rarely ever have the chance to learn whatever became of the dog or situation in question. I am certain that this was one of the more difficult decisions you've had to make and further I appreciate your willingness to share your experience/dilemma and eventual outcome with the membership. Take care of yourself.


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## kenneth roth (Jul 29, 2010)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I won't speak for Justin, but you are insulting ME because I was this dog's vet. I am not a board certified specialist in behavior, but I am pretty damn qualified for a general practitioner. My professional opinion was that the dog's temperament was highly unstable and progressing closer to an actual bite, which could have been devastating. I was also not the only experienced trainer he worked with either. Suggesting I'd lightly agree to euthanize an otherwise healthy dog at the drop of a hat is HIGHLY insulting to me.
> 
> Did anyone else offer to travel out to evaluate the dog? No. Did anyone else offer to take the dog on and see what they could do? No. But there's no lack of opinions from some folks that the dog could have been saved...sight unseen of course. :roll:


Don't bash Rick. Rick had a good point, last update was 03/2012 then on 07/2012 he updates the forum saying he put his dog down.. 4 months of no information, no updates and their is a gap their between the dates ](*,)


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

kenneth roth said:


> Don't bash Rick. Rick had a good point, last update was 03/2012 then on 07/2012 he updates the forum saying he put his dog down.. 4 months of no information, no updates and their is a gap their between the dates ](*,)


And?

Gaps exist everywhere in life, doesn't mean we ever get or are entitled to explainations or answers for what occured in the middle. Frankly, it's no ones business but if someone wants to make it their business why not do the respectful thing and contact him via PM?


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

kenneth roth said:


> Don't bash Rick. Rick had a good point, last update was 03/2012 then on 07/2012 he updates the forum saying he put his dog down.. 4 months of no information, no updates and their is a gap their between the dates ](*,)


Well, he shouldn't quite literally professionally insult me. 

Nicole is correct. He's my patient, so by patient confidentiality, I cannot come on here and just give random updates or announce I euthanized the dog. Only Justin can, but he is certainly not obligated to. He could have just said nothing and no one but me and the people in the need to know would have known. Appreciate his candor though.

I'm just extremely irritated when the keyboard commandos who are thousands of miles away think they know more than those who have...oh I don't know...actually seen the dog and know what they are doing? :-k


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## Lindsay Janes (Aug 9, 2007)

Justin Anzalone said:


> I just wanted to update this thread. We made the decision to put him down today. As horrible as I feel, I know this was the right decision as the dog was an accident waiting to happen. It hurts unimaginably today, but I know that as time goes on and my life returns to a semblance of normalcy, I will be ok. Thanks to all who took the time to chime in, this decision was not taken lightly. We euthanized him here at home where he is most comfortable, and he will be cremated. Took an imprint of his paw; gone, but not forgotten. RIP Raynor 4/17/2011 - 7/1/2012


 I am truly sorry that you had to make a tough decision. Making a big decision something like this isn't easy. I feel like you made a responsible choice for your dog. I had to make a decision something like that a long time too. It breaks your heart.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

This thread is about a man that had to put his dog down. Don't you think it's a bit childish to be arguing the how and why of it all? Not to mention insensitive!
Any more and the thread will be closed!
Sorry Justin!


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> This thread is about a man that had to put his dog down. Don't you think it's a bit childish to be arguing the how and why of it all? Not to mention insensitive!
> Any more and the thread will be closed!
> Sorry Justin!


Absolutely!!! Thanks Bob


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## Justin Anzalone (Aug 1, 2011)

kenneth roth said:


> Don't bash Rick. Rick had a good point, last update was 03/2012 then on 07/2012 he updates the forum saying he put his dog down.. 4 months of no information, no updates and their is a gap their between the dates ](*,)


Allow me to apologize for not making the last 4 months of agony, disappointment and heartache entertaining enough for you and Rick.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Justin Anzalone said:


> Allow me to apologize for not making the last 4 months of agony, disappointment and heartache entertaining enough for you and Rick.



You were under no obligation to explain your time to anyone about any thing!


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## kenneth roth (Jul 29, 2010)

Bob Scott said:


> You were under no obligation to explain your time to anyone about any thing!


Justin: Alot of respected people on this forum gave you and your family great advice , justin you were asking for help, and advice. I look at it this way people offered there advice/help to help you not bs you. sounded like to me like loss of feedback/commacation between everyone, then you say you put your dog down..

This forum is here to help people not for entertament. Other forums they only care about adverticing profits.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

kenneth roth said:


> Justin: Alot of respected people on this forum gave you and your family great advice , justin you were asking for help, and advice. I look at it this way people offered there advice/help to help you not bs you. sounded like to me like loss of feedback/commacation between everyone, then you say you put your dog down..
> 
> This forum is here to help people not for entertament.other forums they only care about adverticing profits.


Maybe so, music certainly sounds different without a bass guitar for example. I get what your saying but what I suggested earlier still stands. There likely isn't anyone here who doesn't understand what communication gaps do in a situation where people are looking for or even feeling the need to find answers. And, sometimes for reasons unknown certain things go left unsaid, whether they need to or not.

Take what you need to away from this and if you can reach out to him personally then do so. Sometimes showing a bit of character works wonders and may serve to provide you with what you need to help yourself in order to make sense of what happened. But if it doesn't be prepared to accept that too. 

The decision he made was clearly an intensely personal one and not one he arrived at easily. But the fact that he shared the outcome certainly shows that he felt some connection to the people he originally reached out to.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

_"The decision he made was clearly an intensely personal one and not one he arrived at easily. But the fact that he shared the outcome certainly shows that he felt some connection to the people he originally reached out to."_


Thank you, Nicole. Nicely said.


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Justin,
Do not let others lead you to doubt your decision as it appears to me that it wasnt taken lightly. Having a bull breed you have additional responsibilities. Even if there was a chance the dog could have been rehabilitated, there was also the chance it could not and some serious consequences with that. You weighed the decision right imo. You did what you had to do for your situation and family. You also did service to the breed as a whole. The last thing this breed (or bull breeds in general) needs is another negative headline. There are plenty of properly temperamented bull breeds out there, but the general public rarely gets the chance to hear of them... its the rare few misfits that make the headlines and the heads spin in fear.

t


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Perhaps with those thoughtful words, this is a good time to close the thread. A few painful posts, some emotion, perhaps, causing insults to be interpreted when insults were not intended, and other posts that I think everyone understands came out of emotion .... let's close on the fact that a fellow owner had a very difficult decision to make and made it.

Rest in peace, Raynor, and hang in there, Justin.




We understand from PMs to mods that evaluating and possibly rehabilitating aggressive dogs is a topic that might be valuable.

What we do want to be clear about is that if such a topic is introduced, it won't reference this dog or any other dog mentioned in a PTS thread here. If the topic is introduced, it will be strictly a new topic.

THANK YOU from all the mods.


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