# Fetch/toy play with multiple dogs



## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Looking through people's photos I see that many poeple are able to play fetch wtih multiple dogs at the same time.

How many of you with working dogs can have your dogs all go after the same toy with out fights?

How many of you think that that is a good idea (must be AWESOME to exersise them all together)?

How many think it is not a good idea? Do you buy the whole "never let your dog think it is okay NOT to win or keep the toy".

Do you think that this is mostly dependent on the dog's temperment?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

When I see photos like that, I pretty much disregard most of what they say from then on. I know people that do this with older retired dogs, but pretty much this is goofy. Ever wonder why the second dog with most people is not so cool ? ? ? ? 

I made the mistake of thinking Buko was in the house, and threw something for the new one. He retrieved her. Not so good really.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

I tried it once with my Lab and my older Malinois. After several successful throw/retrieves, I threw the toy again and they arrived at the toy at the very same time. The Lab bit the hell out of the Malinois' face and actually broke one of the Malinois' teeth. The Malinois retaliated, but his teeth are flat, so they didn't do any visible damage. Of course, as soon as they started, I yelled and they quickly stopped, but the damage was done in a span of a second. 

We don't play dat game here no more. Lesson learned!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jennifer, I guess I don't even get it. Why? What is the attraction? Whip up some dog aggression where there was none? :lol:


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Not a good idea...unless you have Chihuahuas.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Lyn Chen said:


> Not a good idea...unless you have Chihuahuas.


I wouldn't count on that, either. :lol:

There's one thing that can get a nasty growl out of the two small dogs here, and that's for me to give a treat or a toy indecisively to neither one in particular.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

This board is full of idiots maybe they are experimenting with pack drive ball drive vs fight drive and then practicing what they learned here with breaking up a dog fight thread.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Do you mean multiple working dogs or a working dog and other house dogs that you own?

I almost always exercise my three Rotts at the same time. My male is bite trained. The two females aren't. They are all trained in schutzhund style OB and they all play Balabanov's game with me. I haven't had any issues with fighting. My male is clearly the dominant one and the females always let him have the ball. Most of the time all three of them run back with the ball (and attached rope) in their mouths.

I wouldn't trust any of my dogs with other dogs to play nice in this game. Maybe it would be different if they weren't all house dogs? or maybe it would be different if they were all working dogs? All three of them are very drivey especially for Rotts. Maybe it would be different if they were the same sex?

I've only had luck with the rotts and one other female pug together. If I dare toss a ball in the house the two males will fight over it and a pug on rott just isn't fair.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Mike Scheiber said:


> This board is full of idiots maybe they are experimenting with pack drive ball drive vs fight drive and then practicing what they learned here with breaking up a dog fight thread.


Ah.

The post _This board is full of idiots_ then would be an experiment with breaking up fights?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Chris Michalek said:


> My male is clearly the dominant one and the females always let him have the ball. ...


So then one dog is playing and two are watching?


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

This is my rule, if you can't exercise all your dogs one at a time, you have too many.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> So then one dog is playing and two are watching?


The females chase the male (wish I had that problem ) If one of the females get to the ball first then they give it up for the male unless he's tired and doesn't care. Sometimes the male will wait for the females to almost bring it back to me and then he takes it away from them.

I do OB with them separately and most night we bring them for walks separately. My wife always brings one running in the evening and I bring the other out for some OB and a walk. The rescue has hip issues so she's only out in the mornings with the other two.

Maybe I'll take some video and post it.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Mike Scheiber said:


> This board is full of idiots maybe they are experimenting with pack drive ball drive vs fight drive and then practicing what they learned here with breaking up a dog fight thread.


Wow, Mike. Where did that come from?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Chris Michalek said:


> The females chase the male (wish I had that problem ) If one of the females get to the ball first then they give it up for the male unless he's tired and doesn't care. Sometimes the male will wait for the females to almost bring it back to me and then he takes it away from them.
> 
> I do OB with them separately and most night we bring them for walks separately. My wife always brings one running in the evening and I bring the other out for some OB and a walk. The rescue has hip issues so she's only out in the mornings with the other two.
> 
> Maybe I'll take some video and post it.


I understand what you're saying.

Probably not the usual outcome, and not one to count on (IMO).

So on walks..... you can probably walk with more than one, no problem, I imagine? I do that. The focus in on marching along rather than on the toy or the ball.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Do you buy the whole "never let your dog think it is okay NOT to win or keep the toy".


What do you mean by this and how is it related to the letting dogs play together?


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I understand what you're saying.
> 
> Probably not the usual outcome, and definitely not one to count on (IMO).
> 
> So on walks..... you can probably walk with more than one, no problem, I imagine? I do that. The focus in on marching along rather than on the toy or the ball.


I can walk all three at once but I think each one needs alone time. 

We've been playing pack fetch everyday (sometimes twice) for well over a year.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Chris Michalek said:


> We've been playing pack fetch everyday (sometimes twice) for well over a year.


Oh, no no, I meant not to count on _in general_! I wasn't questioning you in any way!

Yes, one-on-one time is critical, as you say.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Konnie Hein said:


> What do you mean by this and how is it related to the letting dogs play together?


Maybe it was about only one dog actually getting to win/keep the toy in a group game?


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Do you buy the whole "never let your dog think it is okay NOT to win or keep the toy".



Konnie Hein said:


> What do you mean by this and how is it related to the letting dogs play together?



I have heard this in various forms, but one that sticks out is from a retreiver book in a section written by a field dog trainer. She does not play fetch with multiple dogs as one dog will get the bumper/bird and others wont. She does not want any of the dogs to learn that they can come back WITHOUT the bird for any reason. 


Conversly, I was mentored for a short while by an experienced SAR avi dog handler (he had field goldens) that was a firm beleiver in competition for building drive. He actually advocated letting the avi dogs tug apart large reward articles.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Conversly, I was mentored for a short while by an experienced SAR avi dog handler (he had field goldens) that was a firm beleiver in competition for building drive. He actually advocated letting the avi dogs tug apart large reward articles.



That's exactly why I play fetch with all of my dogs at once. I can see them working harder to get to the kong. I'm positive it's translated into a more intense level of prey for my working male.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

[LEFT said:


> *Konnie*[/LEFT] *Hein*​;81774]Wow, Mike. Where did that come from?


Read some of the titles and goofy banter in some of the threads in the last few weeks. Good humor=D>


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Read some of the titles and goofy banter in some of the threads in the last few weeks. Good humor=D>


Awww...you didn't like my threads on pack drive, retrieve drive, and social aggression. Damn, I thought I was on a roll! 

Well, ya can't please everybody! Glad we make you laugh! :grin:


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5OOl5kJUqk

My dogs are pretty much as Chris describes, the 2 females give it up to the male. I taught him to run harder by adding another dog to compete with. Run like hell, or lose. I don't normally run all 3 like in the video. We were just out on the ranch that day shooting targets and the dogs were all with us. One person played with the dogs to keep them out of the shooters way and distracted. 

I don't tollerate any dog aggression with my dogs period. My dogs don't fight period. The pack order "was" clear and nobody tried anything the day I shot that video. Normally I do play with one dog at a time but on a busy day, if I don't have time or just feel like letting them work together I will have 2 out. 1 is always my daughters rescue female. I don't put my 7 month old with her big brother anymore. She has no fear and will neck bite him and I'm not sure when he will decide, she's too old for that crap. 

I don't know or care how other people run their show but I've never had a dog fight at my place, between my own dogs. I have never owned 2 dogs that I allowed to not tollerate eachother. I don't want to worry about if a gate pops open or somehow someday 2 dogs get in the same area. I just make them get along. They don't have to like eachother and I wont let one dog pester the shit out of another, that's not fair but they will respect my athority and be neutral. If one snarls or whatever, a simple "knock it off" from me defusses it. The adults know fighting with me will be much more work than fighting eachother.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

LOL I guess I'm an idiot with nothing of value to say, oh well :lol: 

I routinely play fetch with multiple dogs, this was taken the other day.










Actually there was one more dog in the yard at the time, but he didn't make it into the frame. At the time of this photo I had 3 dogs titled in Ring, a PPD, a young dog being trained for Ring, and a dog titled in herding all chasing the same ball. Half the dogs grew up with me, so in this type of lifestyle, the other half came to me later, the PPD was just visiting but is from my breeding. Worst thing that happens is the game of fetch turns into a game of tug if two dogs get a hold of the toy at the same time. 

It comes down to knowing the dogs and how they will behave in this type of situation. If I have one dog that tends to be possessive, I can always throw multiple toys, or just give that dog a toy and they will happily carry it around while they run with the other dogs. If I have two dogs who tend to not get along, or who may escalate the play into a fight, then they either don't run together, or each has their own toy. And if anyone is dumb enough to turn this game into a fight, they can deal with me. 

Do I recommend everyone do this? No, not if you aren't comfortable with it. But just because your dog's can't, or you don't want them to, doesn't mean someone else's dogs shouldn't.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

My two, intact males are outside in the same kennel run together and the JRT is a house dog. 
I've always ran my dogs together even when I had multiple terriers of both sexes.
Although I do obedience training with praise as a reward, I don't do any fetch or tug/toy/food reward when working with the whole group. 
Not creating competition among them is one of the ways I stay top dog.......unless the wife is along on the walks.  
Ditto with Konnie on the whys and why nots of recommending this to just any dog owner. 
I would also add that I don't interfear with a change in pack structure as long as it isn't over the top. Most can be done with posturing. Putting or keeping a dog in the top position based on sentiment or desire doesn't work. If it doesn't belong at the top you will do nothing but undermine the whole structure. 
The only position that I don't tolerate a challenge to is mine.
This DID get a bit exciting though when I had 3-4 terriers.  Still never had any major fights (in my group) except with unstable JRT and with my older GSD. 
Still not a problem if I'm present. They are the only two I've ever had to separate other then when females were in season.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I routinely play fetch with multiple dogs, this was taken the other day.


Wow! Maybe it is an OK thing to do with Malinois, but never with Labradors. Damn floppy-eared dogs are vicious (as one can plainly see from my experience throwing a toy with a Lab and Mal)!!!!


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

I was at a Toller breeder a while back and she had her pack of 7 dogs all playing fetch with the same ball and I was amazed. Looked like Kadi's picture, minus the pointy ears of course:wink: 

Thanks for the responses and opinions. It seems to me it is possible with the right combination of dogs, especially if they are brought up that way. I really wish that when I get a second dog I would be able to play them together, but alas, my male is a bit of a prick and it just won't fly.

If other dogs are out playing fetch, he will not even try to join in anymore. If he is playing fetch one on one with me and another dog tries to take his toy....well not too pretty.

I understand the competition angle somewhat and my dog searches (avalanche) really well with other dogs searching around him. IF the other dogs are searching. If the dogs are just farting around wanting to sniff his butt while he is working, he will tell them to f-off with his teeth and then return promptly to work. If he has won his reward (ragging article), he does not want to share it with anyone but me.

I have had him tug a large article apart (as per the mentor's advice that this was okay) with another dog before. Snarl, growl, tug...once the article is ripped in half and he has his peice he wants to shake it and then bring it to me for tugs. If the other dog decides he wants the peice my dog has or to continue the tug game..fur will fly. Needless to say we don't play that way anymore.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> ... Although I do obedience training with praise as a reward, I don't do any fetch or tug/toy/food reward when working with the whole group. ... Not creating competition among them is one of the ways I stay top dog.......unless the wife is along on the walks.


This would be my take, but this is fascinating (and kinda humbling :lol: ) reading!

And Kadi, that picture is great.


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## Johnny Cone (Aug 4, 2008)

I am new here. 

That being said, this may not be the best thread for me to "cut my teeth" on. 

I am in no way trying to stir the pot or come across as a jerk. I joined this forum both the learn from others as well as share my knowledge and opinions. 

A quick story on me and where I am coming from.

I have never owned dogs that competed in the "working" sports. Sch, ring, mondio, etc.

I have experience with working and training herding dogs. This background has largely been in real world working situations versus trials. I have some background in working and handling free running hounds and curs, for deer as well as wild hogs. As well as catch dogs for hogs. 


I have owned some pretty high drive dogs. Catahoula Leopard dogs (that worked cattle and ran wild hogs for a living) Rottweilers, Pit Bull Terriers, and a couple of Australian Cattle Dogs. A picture of my current ACD is posted in the member bio section. Both of the ACDs have been from storied working lines are are full of drive. 

This is my opinion on playing fetch with multiple dogs. If you cannot run, excercise, and play with your dogs as a pack, then you need to look at the dog that initiates conflict. Because it is the leader rather than yourself. You also likely have some socialization issues with your dogs. If you are the "pack" alpha and your dogs are socialized with each other, while there may be some pecking order squabbles, things should not escalate. And a simple word from you should cause any squabble to cease. 

If do not have enough control over your dog to cause him to cease in a conflict with another dog, I don't really think you have enough control over the dog to do bite work training. 

On another note. Excercising your dogs as a group creates competition and increases the level of intensity. 
The dogs will get a better workout as a group. 

Just my .02


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

This is my dog I am the center of his universe all his fun and pleasure comes from me every thing in his world revolve around me. If he is outside alone in the back yard or in his kennel he is waiting for me. If we are at the park playing or training it is with me other people kids or dog's don't matter.
When he was a pup I socialized him with people and dogs environment what ever he is perfect.
Last weekend I had him to a friends cabin they have a young pushy feisty lab that all he wanted to do is chase and play my dog had no interest in him a little meet and greet ass sniffing that's it. Ran him off a couple of times for being to pesky and pushy no dog fight. My dog did however take possession of his training dummy and carried it around all weekend waiting for me to toss it for him. 
All the lab wanted to do is play with Jett relentless he didn't give a shit about his dummy or his owner. Finally my buddy just put him in the kennel.
My buddy has high hopes that he will be a great hunting dog.#-o
Sometimes when we play ball/fetch if the grass is to dry it catches on fire from the sparks shooting out of his ass. 
I don need other dogs to promote drive or desire he's got it.
Oh and he bites like a mofo


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Johnny Cone said:


> This is my opinion on playing fetch with multiple dogs. If you cannot run, excercise, and play with your dogs as a pack, then you need to look at the dog that initiates conflict. Because it is the leader rather than yourself. You also likely have some socialization issues with your dogs. If you are the "pack" alpha and your dogs are socialized with each other, while there may be some pecking order squabbles, things should not escalate. And a simple word from you should cause any squabble to cease.
> 
> If do not have enough control over your dog to cause him to cease in a conflict with another dog, I don't really think you have enough control over the dog to do bite work training.
> 
> ...


Appreciate your two cents. I like discussion. Good thing I don't do bitework or I might have to shoot my dog then? #-o ;-) 

Is resulting aggression to possess the reward not the ultimate in intense competition for it? Does that kind of dog NEED anymore competition?

I can stop my dog's aggression in this case with my voice. Just don't want to let him practice that type of behavior. As a leader I can keep it from happening by NOT playing fetch with him with other dogs around.

I am not personally against people doing it. On the contrary. I would be happy if I could, I think it is ideal if you have multiple dogs.

I will concede that my dog's temperment is not for everyone (one reason I asked in the OP if people think that a dog's temperment is a consideration). I am unwilling at this time to concede that my dog does not respect me at the "pack leader". =;


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Appreciate your two cents. I like discussion. Good thing I don't do bitework or I might have to shoot my dog then? #-o ;-)
> 
> Is resulting aggression to possess the reward not the ultimate in intense competition for it? Does that kind of dog NEED anymore competition?
> 
> ...


Jennnifer, maybe just word usage but "aggression to possess the reward" is a ton different then drive/desire to possess the reward. It's the aggression that will create problems in a pack. 
Pack control isn't just about leadership. It's the right dogs, the right introductions, the situation of the moment. 
It's been few and far between (almost never) that I've brought in an adult dog to my pack. It's been 99.9% always a puppy. That makes things a ton easier. MOST adult dogs will put up with a ton of crap from a puppy. This is also why some don't let their dog play with one another. They don't want the new dog/pup to bond with the other dogs more then with the handler. 
A new pup at my house will spend most of the first 6-8 months in the house bonding with me. After that I've not had a problem with leaving them run together. 
One thing I always look for;
When I walk in the yard after being out with a dog I always look for how the dog left behind reacts. If the dog left behind comes up to me first, all is well. If the dog in the yard comes up to the dog comming back into the yard with me, that dog in the yard is showing who it prefers as a leader. I've not had any problems in this area. subtle little things like that keep you on top. 
I'm currently criticized by some at club for kenneling both my males together. The change in structure/dominance doesn't happen over night. There are things I'll look for to assure things don't hit the fan.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

I totally agree with what Johnny said but as Bob points out, I too keep young pups away from the dogs for the most part until the pup knows, I run the show. I do an introduction when a new pup arrives so everybody can see and smell one another, note any weird reactions for the next meeting. My little female went strait to the kennel and squeezed through everytime she went outside, until she grew too big to squeeze through. (Thank God her brother wasn't as big a dick as I thought) She's way more doggie than my male, who was actually quite submissive to my adults when he came in at 9 weeks. The female dove right into the dogs and grabbed neck and hung on. She's still really nippy and annoying so I don't subject my adult dogs to her annoyances often. I doubt she will ever be housed with another dog, at 7 months she still makes a B-line for the kennel to greet the other dogs if she is loose.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Bob Scott said:


> Jennnifer, maybe just word usage but "aggression to possess the reward" is a ton different then drive/desire to possess the reward. It's the aggression that will create problems in a pack.
> Pack control isn't just about leadership. It's the right dogs, the right introductions, the situation of the moment.


Gotcha.


Bob Scott said:


> It's been few and far between (almost never) that I've brought in an adult dog to my pack. It's been 99.9% always a puppy. That makes things a ton easier. MOST adult dogs will put up with a ton of crap from a puppy. This is also why some don't let their dog play with one another. They don't want the new dog/pup to bond with the other dogs more then with the handler.
> A new pup at my house will spend most of the first 6-8 months in the house bonding with me. After that I've not had a problem with leaving them run together.
> One thing I always look for;
> When I walk in the yard after being out with a dog I always look for how the dog left behind reacts. If the dog left behind comes up to me first, all is well. If the dog in the yard comes up to the dog comming back into the yard with me, that dog in the yard is showing who it prefers as a leader. I've not had any problems in this area. subtle little things like that keep you on top.
> I'm currently criticized by some at club for kenneling both my males together. The change in structure/dominance doesn't happen over night. There are things I'll look for to assure things don't hit the fan.


I reserve the right to be wrong, but I don't think I would have the "doggy" issues with a new pup. My current dog is NOT puppy friendly, and doesn't want to play want to with other dogs for the most part. This is somewhat ironic since as a pup he LOVED playing with other dogs and tortured many an adult and pup when he was young. Somehow when he grew up this changed. He is fine with any dog now as long as they don't try to play with him or hump him or eat his food.

I am also not against keeping dogs in the same kennel at all, what ever works!!!

I don't think it would work for me right away however. Once the new pup learned he wasn't allowed to bother the older dog things would be fine. How should that lesson be taught to a very young puppy? Do you let the dogs sort it our themselves(not my first choice), or do you wait until the pup is old enough that you can enforce that the pup is not allowed to bother the older dog and the older dog is not allowed to be agressive towards the pup. 

Getting off topic, but appreciate the insights!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

As Michelle said, they get introduced, even light play but the majority of the early 6-8 months is learning I'm god. After that point it seems less a problem. 
Letting them sort it out among themselves is something I may do with them as older pups but I don't want a small pup dominated by an older dog. I wouldn't allow this if I though it would involve more then posturing. Again, knowing your own dogs is key to a ton of this. 
Fights break out over food, territory, sex and social status. You have to understand each of your dogs in regards to these situation in order to stay in control.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Anyone ever seen water racing? It's kinda like lure coursing in the water, but with a bumper instead of a plastic bag and you can pull the bumper by hand by a rope, so less equipment needed. We kind of tried this at our Dog Scout troop meeting last month. That was pretty neat and probably lower impact exercise than field lure coursing. Fawkes beat everybody.  You could totally combine that with dock diving. Sweet...  Plus the dogs are nice and tired after a couple rounds.

Lily and Fawkes are the only two much interested in a tug, and we play separately, though one might get to watch the other. Only Fawkes is much interested in a ball, so that's all solo.


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## Julie Ward (Oct 1, 2007)

All seven of my dogs play fetch together in the backyard every day and it's been like that for years and years. I've never had a problem. It definitely makes them try their hardest. I have multiple balls to make things a little more fair and give everyone a chance as a doberman doesn't stand a snowballs chance next to a whippet. The italian greyhound just runs around to keep out of the way of everyone else.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I've let my two intact males out together in the garden, each with a football that each didn't want to lose so no fights. All I can say it was fun for me to watch them but that was all.

As for intensifying the various "drives", they don't need this. Maybe I'm Idiot Number 27 on this forum, but I need all my wits about me concentrating on one:-$


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## marta wade (Apr 17, 2008)

This has been interesting but I am thinking you must have dogs all of similiar size to play multiple fetch or maybe I am the only one that has dogs so stupid for the toy they will run into trees#-o Running two dogs I tried and it was too close for comfort for me. I was not worried about fights but the smaller getting buldozed by the larger. Actually let me be honest the smaller not seeing the larger and running right into him! With at least a 40lbs difference I instead use it as a distraction. One gets the ball one is in a stay or wait...

Marta


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

LOL my little one wasn't even chasing anything but the bigger dogs. I do make sure the yare lined up right before I throw, nobody behind Baden or when he turns to run, they get taken out.


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