# Dutch Shepherd Advice



## Pedro Carneiro

Hello everyone,

I am thinking of adding a third dog to my family and I was considering going for a dutchie. I have worked with malinois before and currently have one on mondioring. As a third dog I am looking to do some more mondio and thus a well bred working line one (willing to pay for quality). I would like to work with a different breed other than malinois to increase my experience as a trainer while i also like the fact that its rarer than the malinois (in my country 95% of mondio dogs are maligators haha). Also if you could add what are the working main differences you have witnessed between a malinois and a dutchie (and i know each individual is unique and so looking for General traits!) both working line? I have talked with fellow trainers in my country and they advised me to get one in france especifically from a kennel named: la horde d hades. Any input on their dogs? Going abroad to get the dog and see the litter is also not an issue  Thanks in advance for the answer!


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## Connie Sutherland

Hi, Pedro,

Please don't forget the required intro/bio at http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f20/

Thank you!


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## Pedro Carneiro

Doing it right now!


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## Thomas Barriano

Pedro,

I don't think there is enough difference between a Malinois and a Dutch Shepherd (Brindle Malinois) to make it a worthwhile training experience. IMO
If you want to train another breed, go for a GSD or Dobermann, Giant Schnauzer, etc.


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## Pedro Carneiro

You may be right! But I also like the fact that it is rarer tbh... Going out of shepherds is not an option since I just love working with those dogs  Dutch shepherd seemed like a nice compromise between something I love and something abit different. Some people report them to be identical but a little calmer than mals and more serious vs goofy others report them to be exactly the same as a malinois (and even in KNPV lines the breeds are mixed). That was why I was curious and decided to ask people with more experience. For me it is just a matter of deciding to add another malinois or a dutchie. I Adore malinois and its my favorite breed but not fond of having 2 of the same. Dutchies are honestly very very rare in Portugal and personally I have seen one and he just works as a theropy dog so no example


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## eric squires

I think you have ask yourself if it is more important to do the sport well or do the sport with a breed you like. I do IPO with Dutchies because i love the breed and the sport. That being said if i wanted a dog to do the sport at the highest level i would be better off with a GSD or a Malinios. The type of KNPV Dutchie i like makes a better police dog than a sport dog. This is just my experience. If you are really set on having A Dutch Shepherd in the sport and doing well i would try to find a dog out of a kennel that is breeding and training for your sport as well as have some sucess with their dogs at it.


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## Marcel Winter

Pedro KNPV Dutchies are the same as the Malinois only the stripes are different, if you
looking for a FCI Dutchie you can take contact with kennel Le Dobry in Holland they work
for a long time with FCI pedigreed Dutchies.


www.ledobryhollanders.nl


Regards Marcel


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Not agreeing with you Marcel. Even the mals in my litter are a bit diffrent than their striped siblings ;-) i do agree it depends on the bloodline, most of eric's are decendents of dogs we've bred or have our bloodline in their bloodline , if i am not mistaken ;-) mika x tommy and mika x ebro, right Eric?


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## Marcel Winter

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Not agreeing with you Marcel. Even the mals in my litter are a bit diffrent than their striped siblings ;-) i do agree it depends on the bloodline, most of eric's are decendents of dogs we've bred or have our bloodline in their bloodline , if i am not mistaken ;-) mika x tommy and mika x ebro, right Eric?



 Dick/ Selena

I don,t see any differents in the dogs charactar,nerves
drives or drifts , in KNPV litters Malinois X Dutchie , maybe the anatomy breeding on Dutchies 
can be some different. Dick /Selena I speak for myself and I know you both have more experience than me in breeding so I will not speak agains you I hope to leanrn what are the differents between the Mali and Dutchie in one same litter.


Marcel


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## Ben Thompson

How can their be a difference in a dutch malinois and dutch shepherd who are all littermates? Sure dogs are individuals but if they are littermates there should be some pattern there. I can see the arguement for belgian malinois vs dutch malinois. Just wondering.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Cause the fawn coloured pups are more mal like in their behaviours than their striped siblings ;-)


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## eric squires

Hello Selena, yes you are correct on the dogs you spoke of, Mika X Tommy. I have not seen a major differences in the Mal colored or the brindle dogs in a litter. I do see a huge difference in the Mal colored Dutch dogs and the FCI Malinios just what I see.


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## Ben Thompson

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Cause the fawn coloured pups are more mal like in their behaviours than their striped siblings ;-)


Hahahaha


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## Marcel Winter

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Cause the fawn coloured pups are more mal like in their behaviours than their striped siblings ;-)


 Andersom ook?:-\"


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Ja. Zit een verschil in, maar ik denk dat je het nest van heel dichtbij moet mee maken.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

eric squires said:


> Hello Selena, yes you are correct on the dogs you spoke of, Mika X Tommy. I have not seen a major differences in the Mal colored or the brindle dogs in a litter. I do see a huge difference in the Mal colored Dutch dogs and the FCI Malinios just what I see.


I never said major, but there is a difference.

But don't forget we're at 7/8 gen dogs of our own line and breed very tight linebred. A small difference is seen sooner.


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## Kevin Cyr

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> I never said major, but there is a difference.
> 
> But don't forget we're at 7/8 gen dogs of our own line and breed very tight linebred. A small difference is seen sooner.


Lol. Please explain these differences beside the color....


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## Bob Scott

Kevin Cyr said:


> Lol. Please explain these differences beside the color....


In some breeds, Cocker spaniel for instance, the golden colored ones for instance, have been shown to often have different temperaments from the others. I don't know why it wouldn't be so with colors in other breeds.


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## rick smith

fwiw, i have heard this said about another breed 

in japan, it is a belief held by many people that the black shibas are somehow more "primal" and aggressive than the brown or red shibas. shibas are plentiful here and many do have aggression problems. i've worked with a number. i have always thought it's kinda the same thing as "bad" terriers. but the only difference i've noticed is that there are a lot less black shibas in the gene pool. but all colors seem to respond to training in the same way, and i've never seen one that was human-aggressive that didn't have a VERY poor bond with the owner or another family member

and fwiw, that goes for a few cockers too ... of many colors, but some were very light blonde 

so i would have to see a LOT of hard data before i would agree coat color is related to temperament, if that is what is being suggested.
- and i doubt any one person; owner, trainer, breeder or whatever, would ever be able to collect enuff data in their lifetime to confirm this opinion

i've even heard this said about eye color too and i'm sure a lot of you have heard this same thing ....


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## Bob Scott

rick smith said:


> fwiw, i have heard this said about another breed
> 
> in japan, it is a belief held by many people that the black shibas are somehow more "primal" and aggressive than the brown or red shibas. shibas are plentiful here and many do have aggression problems. i've worked with a number. i have always thought it's kinda the same thing as "bad" terriers. but the only difference i've noticed is that there are a lot less black shibas in the gene pool. but all colors seem to respond to training in the same way, and i've never seen one that was human-aggressive that didn't have a VERY poor bond with the owner or another family member
> 
> and fwiw, that goes for a few cockers too ... of many colors, but some were very light blonde
> 
> so i would have to see a LOT of hard data before i would agree coat color is related to temperament, if that is what is being suggested.
> - and i doubt any one person; owner, trainer, breeder or whatever, would ever be able to collect enuff data in their lifetime to confirm this opinion
> 
> i've even heard this said about eye color too and i'm sure a lot of you have heard this same thing ....




Have you ever dated a green eyed, red headed woman? :-o:-o:-o:-o:-o :lol:


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## rick smith

green eyed...yes
but never ALL red; just a dash here and there //lol//


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## Kevin Cyr

rick smith said:


> fwiw, i have heard this said about another breed
> 
> in japan, it is a belief held by many people that the black shibas are somehow more "primal" and aggressive than the brown or red shibas. shibas are plentiful here and many do have aggression problems. i've worked with a number. i have always thought it's kinda the same thing as "bad" terriers. but the only difference i've noticed is that there are a lot less black shibas in the gene pool. but all colors seem to respond to training in the same way, and i've never seen one that was human-aggressive that didn't have a VERY poor bond with the owner or another family member
> 
> and fwiw, that goes for a few cockers too ... of many colors, but some were very light blonde
> 
> so i would have to see a LOT of hard data before i would agree coat color is related to temperament, if that is what is being suggested.
> - and i doubt any one person; owner, trainer, breeder or whatever, would ever be able to collect enuff data in their lifetime to confirm this opinion
> 
> i've even heard this said about eye color too and i'm sure a lot of you have heard this same thing ....


Hard data yes, but very unlikely going to find it unless a breeder tells you. I think its a breeder wanting to think things and another is just coincidence that your seeing it in same colors or not. 


Women is a whole other thing I may tend to agree.....


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## eric squires

There are known genes that are linked to coat color and aggression in other species. It is the Agoti color in mice I believe so it is possible there could be other traits as well. M point is that while I have not seen it myself it is probable there could be behavioral differences in the dogs with different coat colors.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Because this scepsis and arrogance you will still be importing dogs from Europe in at least the next 50 years.......:-#

Dick


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## Kevin Cyr

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Because this scepsis and arrogance you will still be importing dogs from Europe in at least the next 50 years.......:-#
> 
> Dick


Arrogance? Im simply asking for proven data from, your right I dont see it or never have doesnt mean it isnt true, help educate me.

did I state or ask what many others want to but dont?

BTW as many dogs you breed how many are working in US now as DP Police dogs? Im sure you keep numbers on that stuff?

Thanks


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Kevin Cyr said:


> Arrogance? Im simply asking for proven data from, your right I dont see it or never have doesnt mean it isnt true, help educate me.
> 
> did I state or ask what many others want to but dont?
> 
> BTW as many dogs you breed how many are working in US now as DP Police dogs? Im sure you keep numbers on that stuff?
> 
> Thanks


 
Most of them are working in Holland as working police dog. ( including the KNPV champ PH-II of last year) 
We are not breeding for the US. We sent one when they want one... ( AND when we think its responcable..). 

Dick


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## rick smith

if you were also referring to me being arrogant ....

i don't consider myself an arrogant person when it comes to my opinions about dogs. i only brought up shibas because that is probably the breed i have seen the most ... at least 400-500 over the years ... two types of people are usually the ones who believe in the colored coat being a genetic marker for human aggression ... VERY ignorant owners/handlers or old timers who used to hunt them, but since very few still use them to hunt, the percentages have shifted a lot
- i get to see more than my share of the bad cases, and all i meant is the black ones are not any harder to work with than the brown ones and don't react any differently, so i don't see it as a genetic component

- if canine genetics gets studied scientifically as much as rats and mice maybe the color factor will be confirmed or denied, but i don't think that has happened yet, so that's why i can't agree

- but i don't consider my "opinion" arrogant either and i think lots of opinions about dogs are NOT based on science; maybe that's good or bad ... i don't know


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## Ben Thompson

I have a black GSD or mostly black and he is on the mean side. He also has reddish colored legs so it may be the Irish in him that makes him mad easily.


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## Guy Williams

Come on kids, play nice!! White cats are deaf unless they have different coloured eyes or something like that.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378595597001822

There are lots of instances as has been stated in colour of coat affecting other areas. It makes sense that if you are selcting for one trait ie. coat colour that you may catch another inadvertantly.

http://genome.cshlp.org/content/15/12/1706.full

The above study shows that breeds are different at the molecular level and thus breeds are distict genetic units. Therefore if you mate two different breeds of dogs it would make sense that ones that look like the dad may be like the dad.

It makes sense to me. Whether there is much difference between a Mali and a Dutchie (the original post!!) is not something I can help with as I have only ever seen one Dutchie (but I'm more than happy to work one if someone wants to donate one!!):lol:


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## Ben Thompson

*Hahhahaha*

I guess I can't really disagree with being arrogant.


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## Lee H Sternberg

Bob Scott said:


> Have you ever dated a green eyed, red headed woman? :-o:-o:-o:-o:-o :lol:


No but I have dated a blue eyes, red hair (red all over I might add) lady. 

Super neat chick until she got pissed! I watched her smack down some blondes because the blond pushed her way into the rest room at a Circus Circus in Vegas. The blond was about a foot taller than my date.

They thew both of them out. I asked her to wait outside until I finished my crap game.\\/


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## Marcel Winter

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Ja. Zit een verschil in, maar ik denk dat je het nest van heel dichtbij moet mee maken.


It can be possible what I say you are breeding for many many years I have not that 
experience.


Marcel


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## Remco Fox

Pedro Carneiro said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> I am thinking of adding a third dog to my family and I was considering going for a dutchie. I have worked with malinois before and currently have one on mondioring. As a third dog I am looking to do some more mondio and thus a well bred working line one (willing to pay for quality). I would like to work with a different breed other than malinois to increase my experience as a trainer while i also like the fact that its rarer than the malinois (in my country 95% of mondio dogs are maligators haha). Also if you could add what are the working main differences you have witnessed between a malinois and a dutchie (and i know each individual is unique and so looking for General traits!) both working line? I have talked with fellow trainers in my country and they advised me to get one in france especifically from a kennel named: la horde d hades. Any input on their dogs? Going abroad to get the dog and see the litter is also not an issue  Thanks in advance for the answer!


Hi there iff you decide too have a dutchie then go for the x hollandse herder because fci registrated working lines are very rare almost imposible too find so i would recomend a knpv line dutchie for more info check the website http://www.bloedlijnen.nl


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## Marta Wajngarten

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Cause the fawn coloured pups are more mal like in their behaviours than their striped siblings ;-)


I buy it. I had one litter, two KNPV Dutchies produced a mixed litter of mals and dutchies and while over all they all were kinda similar (and this could just be pure coincidence but it was obvious enough that it jumped out at me) the mali pups all had very similar type grab and clamp grips, the Dutchies were a bit more chompy except for one pup (that's as babies prior to any training). The mal pups also seemed to mature quicker and were more serious while the striped pups were dorkier (again, except for one pup). 


Pedro, if you are considering competing in Mondio with a KNPV dog, make sure that not having FCI papers is not going to be an issue or if it will close some doors if you will be ok with that. Other then that Dutchie vs Mali behaviour wise will depend more on the lines then just the coat colour. If you want a brindle beast for some variety go for it why not. Just do your home work on the lines and pick a dog that will match best what you want.


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## Kevin Cyr

Marta Wajngarten said:


> I buy it. I had one litter, two KNPV Dutchies produced a mixed litter of mals and dutchies and while over all they all were kinda similar (and this could just be pure coincidence but it was obvious enough that it jumped out at me) the mali pups all had very similar type grab and clamp grips, the Dutchies were a bit more chompy except for one pup (that's as babies prior to any training). The mal pups also seemed to mature quicker and were more serious while the striped pups were dorkier (again, except for one pup).
> 
> 
> Pedro, if you are considering competing in Mondio with a KNPV dog, make sure that not having FCI papers is not going to be an issue or if it will close some doors if you will be ok with that. Other then that Dutchie vs Mali behaviour wise will depend more on the lines then just the coat colour. If you want a brindle beast for some variety go for it why not. Just do your home work on the lines and pick a dog that will match best what you want.


Oh yeah a buddy had a litter and said the mals had better noses than the stripes; guess their could be some truth to it after


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## Marcel Winter

A small kennel with FCI pedigreed PH-1 KNPV stud Nico exellent van Treekzicht very nice dog


www.aandewenke.wordpress.com/briard-hollandse-herder-dekreuen/


www.kennelvantreekzicht.nl/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=50&Itemid=2


I agree maybe better and more choice not pedigreed X KNPV Dutchies


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## David Ruby

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Cause the fawn coloured pups are more mal like in their behaviours than their striped siblings ;-)


 Funny.

On a scientific note, just looking at these for anecdotal examples:



Bob Scott said:


> In some breeds, Cocker spaniel for instance, the golden colored ones for instance, have been shown to often have different temperaments from the others. I don't know why it wouldn't be so with colors in other breeds.





rick smith said:


> fwiw, i have heard this said about another breed
> 
> in japan, it is a belief held by many people that the black shibas are somehow more "primal" and aggressive than the brown or red shibas. shibas are plentiful here and many do have aggression problems. i've worked with a number. i have always thought it's kinda the same thing as "bad" terriers. but the only difference i've noticed is that there are a lot less black shibas in the gene pool. but all colors seem to respond to training in the same way, and i've never seen one that was human-aggressive that didn't have a VERY poor bond with the owner or another family member
> 
> and fwiw, that goes for a few cockers too ... of many colors, but some were very light blonde
> 
> so i would have to see a LOT of hard data before i would agree coat color is related to temperament, if that is what is being suggested.
> - and i doubt any one person; owner, trainer, breeder or whatever, would ever be able to collect enuff data in their lifetime to confirm this opinion
> 
> i've even heard this said about eye color too and i'm sure a lot of you have heard this same thing ....


I wonder if there might be some genetic linkages (not sure if that is the proper scientific term for this or not), where either the genes for X cause Y, or perhaps those genes showing a dominance from whichever parent/ancestor/whatever passed those on, thus more likely to show traits from that side or that part of the genetic equation. Some could be folklore, and yet it does seem conceivable that the brindle Dutch Shepherds may be displaying a predominance of the traits Dick & Selena are seeing in their brindle pups while the fawn colored pups may be seeing a predominance of traits from the Malinois in the bloodlines used, even if the differences are subtle. Admittedly I have not studied genetics since Bio 2 in high school, so feel free to take this with a huge grain of sand. I do seem to recall hearing or seeing something about certain traits that tend to show up together, not necessarily because brindle Dutch Shepherds or black Shibas inherently act a certain way, just more due to the dominant or recessive nature of certain genes.

In other words, if certain genes tend to show up more in the brindle Dutch Shepherd pups and certain ones tend to show up more in the fawn colored pups. Sort of similar to this:
http://www.genetics.org/content/151...f52fe7afb7d3d0011d4990c6&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha

Not quite the same, however there are also some linkages noted in domestication of foxes for domestic traits and their phenotypes:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2253978/

I would be curious if there were any studies on linkages between coat color or other genetically-controlled phenomenon and temperament traits.

-Cheers


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## Gillian Schuler

Bob Scott said:


> In some breeds, Cocker spaniel for instance, the golden colored ones for instance, have been shown to often have different temperaments from the others. I don't know why it wouldn't be so with colors in other breeds.


In GB I have heard that these Cockers have the "rage syndrome".


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## rick smith

i finally got thru this link :
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2253978/

too much for me to handle in one sitting but well worth digesting 
some interesting implications for how dog behavior has been used to help understand human disorders and a good overall picture of where we stand on decoding the canine genome.
- l also thought the part on trying to link canine behavior to genetics was informative

can't wait to read the results of the 50yr study with foxes. my guess is it will get a lot of publicity and raise a few eyebrows 

Tx for posting it !


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## Bob Scott

Gillian Schuler said:


> In GB I have heard that these Cockers have the "rage syndrome".




Correct! It's often called Springer Rage because it's more common in Springer Spaniels. Over here anyway. 
As a kid my aunt had a big black Cocker Spaniel that chewed up a couple of people for no reason at all. It would suddenly just go into a rage. Sometimes right out of a sound sleep.
It came after me once and I punched it between the eyes and knocked it dizzy. Fear can do that to a kid. :lol: Caught hell from Aunt Jenny for hitting her baby. ](*,)
The day it went after my grandfather was it's last. Mean, onry old drunken Irishman! 
:-o :-# Did I say that with my outloud voice? 8-[


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