# Handler Mistakes



## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

So it's been brought up a few times in another thread that handler mistakes can ruin a good pup. Figured that was a good enough topic for it's own thread. 

So let's hear them, what things do handlers do that in your mind ruin a dog?


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

One of the biggest mistakes IMO is getting in a hurry and pushing your dog too far past where they are in their training. Many times this can put them in mental situation they simply are not ready to handle especially so in bitework


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

Keith Jenkins said:


> One of the biggest mistakes IMO is getting in a hurry and pushing your dog too far past where they are in their training. Many times this can put them in mental situation they simply are not ready to handle especially so in bitework


 
I second this. Guilty myself as charged! ](*,) Happens in SAR work all the time. Trying to move the dog along faster than you should. This is related but I think warrants special mention is not having the basic obedience down really well before moving into specialty areas.

Also, handlers almost always, always think too highly of their dogs and take criticism as a personal attack. Not sure if this counts as the type of handler mistake you are looking for. Maybe not specific enough.

I don't know if this is a handler mistake or not. Using a trainer or advisor that is not familar with your breed. It's my personal feeling but I don't think you can train all dogs the same way even if you are training them for the same task. I don't think you'd train a bloodhound and a GSD in the same manner for tracking. I'm not sure you'd train a Mali and a boxer for bite work in the same way. So while there are a LOT of similarties and great advice available from folks working other breeds, it's best if you can find someone who works with your specific breed. And even then, individual dogs, (or handlers), still may need different approaches. Beware of the trainer who says their way is always the best way.

Craig


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

I'd have to agree, and also guilty, I think it's human nature to just keep on rolling especially if things are going well, I think we just want the payoff as soon as possible.

What about the "too many boundaries" that I've seen and heard a few times.


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

Going to fast is probably the most common mistake. Inconsistency and poor timing also very common. 

Not trying to spin your thread but I have had a few breeders sell me shit, then try and say I screwed them up. This happens a lot too. I have never had a breeder just say "yeah that breeding didn't turn out so well".

Dogs/pups with good character can withstand and/or recover from a lot of shitty training.


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Craig mentioned having basic obedience done before moving on to other areas. I have actually seen this be detrimental in some cases as well. I enjoy shaping behaviors and laying a good foundation with my puppies so they have a solid understanding of positions and attention, but I also like to encourage independence and continue to build drive before putting too much control on a pup. I think it depends how it's done, but some pups get so handler focused, they don't know how to work independently.

Another mistake I see made a lot is coddling or trying to help the puppy through everything. I have seen puppies balk at stairs or dark spaces and watched the owner pick up the pup instead of allowing the pup to overcome it in his own. I will use food or toys or praise to help the pup make a better association, but there are many times when the pup needs to learn to go through it on their own. 

Finally, not just pushing a pup too fast but also working them too much and letting them become lazy. No matter how much a pup loves a game and how well they play it, if they do it all the time, it's not as much fun. Same thing for a toy. If they have it all the time, it loses value.


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

I'll add this one: Too many handlers for the same dog. This happens with working dogs that are also live-in pets. All family members by default become "handlers". Especially for first time owners it is important that ground rules be in place early on. I.e. making sure everyone is using the same commands with the dog.

down vs. Lay down
Sit vs. Sit down
Get down vs. Off
Off can mean "off the person when they jump on someone" , "off the bed", or "off the decoy when biting". What do you want it too mean?
"Release" vs. "Let go" for a tug or toy? Or Release from the decoy?
"Out" for outside or Out for release from the decoy.

Etc. etc..

Making sure everyone does certain actions the same way. I.e. like letting the dog outside. Make sure all members of the family make the dog sit by the door quietly first. Open the door first and then give the command to the dog that they are free to go outside. Kids, (teenagers especially), just open the door and let the dog go rather than enforcing a polite sit and wait until the door is opened and the handler allows the dog out. Same for answering the door when people knock. Let the dog bark than make the dog(s) sit before openng the door. (I've been known to be lax with this). Nothing will impress (or scare someone), more than hearing the sound of vicious dogs when they knock and than seeing the same dogs sitting quietly behind their owner with an intent focus on the visitor!! LOL

Not having command consistency amoung family members can confuse the dog and while most dogs will eventually learn all the various meanings, it can slow the learning process. 

Craig


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

I don't put a lot of boundaries on my puppies. That's just me and my dogs live in kennels. I don't buy into the theory of boundaries squashing a dog as much as i used to. I now believe it is more how those boundaries are placed and the character of individual dog itself.

If you have a dog that gets its drive or confidence squashed by ordinary, within reason boundaries or corrections, it wasn't much dog to begin with.

However, the opposite can also be true. My puppy has a real problem with liking to bite me. Last night I reacted and layer my pimp hand down on him. I laid it down pretty good too. His reaction was to come right back at me. So the level of compultion I would have to give this 4 month old puppy to stop him would probably be too much for a dog his age to handle.


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

Craig Snyder said:


> I'll add this one: Too many handlers for the same dog. This happens with working dogs that are also live-in pets. All family members by default become "handlers".


I have this problem in my house for sure. My wife handled one of our dogs on the training field for a little while, but I think the skills learned there are easily forgotten when she's trying to do something. Can't tell you how many times I've reminded that they don't understand, "F***in move!" and "Shut Up". She wonders why they blow her off...... 

I will say that I do have two "down" commands. I have one that's an OB command where they lie nice and pretty, then a "lay down, chill out" where they can do whatever just as long as they are down. Do they understand it? They appear to, the latter they are usually on their side, chew a bone, nap, lick their butt, etc. I know they typically don't break their OB down, but the relaxed version I usually don't enforce, I don't mind if they get up after a while, to get a drink, or ask to go outside etc.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

biggest handler mistakes:

1 All dogs are the same, my old dog did it like this, so my new dog will do it the same way.

2 Black and White, no grey areas for your dog, Be specific and precise. NO means NO, today , tomorrow....forever! 

3 Persistance in training. Rome wasn't built in a day. Take your time in training your dog, some will take longer then others to learn a specific task!

4 REWARD!!!! This seems to be lacking in a lot of trainers...they are quick to point out the dogs mistakes but slow to reward. If he does the job then reward him/her accordinly...I don't mean a pat on the head and a good boy/girl....REWARD him/her....Show your dog you are pleased! Go nuts! You might think that a ball or bite roll for your dog is a reward...he gets to play and thats a reward...NO...there is no bigger reward then the owner! Make sure your dog knows this. You want your dog working for YOU, not for a ball or snack!


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## Justin Anzalone (Aug 1, 2011)

I like this thread and found it really helpful. A lot of times, as a new handler, I find myself asking "what next"? I think it's important to recognize that no training is often better than setting up a poor foundation. I'm a first time Dutch Shepherd owner, and my pup is about 15 weeks old. I find that if I feel that I'm asking for too much, I just end a session and go back to letting him be a puppy first and foremost. The same can be said if I feel like I'm trying to do something, but don't necessarily understand the 'why' behind it.


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

Brett Bowen said:


> I will say that I do have two "down" commands. I have one that's an OB command where they lie nice and pretty, then a "lay down, chill out" where they can do whatever just as long as they are down. Do they understand it? They appear to, the latter they are usually on their side, chew a bone, nap, lick their butt, etc. I know they typically don't break their OB down, but the relaxed version I usually don't enforce, I don't mind if they get up after a while, to get a drink, or ask to go outside etc.


We have the same. Put they were chained behaviors my wife taught. First was down. Then down/stay of course. She followed that with a "Head down" and a hand signal of the universal nap symbol, (Hands together held against the side of your head). And than finally a "Relax" command that put them all together. Relax now means "down, head down on floor, stay, chill out... ". Rome wasn't built in day and it took awhile. Once in awhile when they get real excited and worked up, we have to step through each command one by one.. 

Craig


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

Justin Anzalone said:


> I like this thread and found it really helpful. A lot of times, as a new handler, I find myself asking "what next"? I think it's important to recognize that no training is often better than setting up a poor foundation. I'm a first time Dutch Shepherd owner, and my pup is about 15 weeks old. I find that if I feel that I'm asking for too much, I just end a session and go back to letting him be a puppy first and foremost. The same can be said if I feel like I'm trying to do something, but don't necessarily understand the 'why' behind it.


that's part of the reason I started it and it's a good training topic if you ask me. I knew it could help somebody and if we're all honest we've all made these "mistakes" at some point. Plus ruining a pup was mentioned several times in the other thread, I was curious what people felt were the things that would completely ruin a pup.


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

As for completely ruining a pup.... I think it is very hard to do if you have a good pup to start with. 

You have to REALLY do some stupid shit to totally ruin a good pup. You can mess them up so they don't reach their full potential or cause problems you have to later try and fix but to totally screw up a pup that was good to begin with is actually hard to do IMO. 

This stuff typically comes from breeders who dont want to admit they produced a weak pup, poor trainers who want to blame the handler, or people who want to make excuses for the dog that wasn't that great to begin with.

Not saying that people don't mess up puppies cuz people do do some stupid stuff. 

Resiliency is a desired trait. If a pup can't handle most of the typical newbie mistakes it wasn't a very good pup genetically to begin with.


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## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

Losing my temper in training. Now when it happens I stop, put the dog away calmly, and tell myself what a stupid, unproductive emotion that is from me for training.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

The one i see most is to much, to soon or to much compulsion. Or forcing a pup who is not social by nature to be social.


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

Yea Selena that is the issue I can see you having with your type of puppies. 

Put too much compultion on a pup even a real good one will get you in trouble.


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Chris Keister said:


> As for completely ruining a pup.... I think it is very hard to do if you have a good pup to start with.
> 
> You have to REALLY do some stupid shit to totally ruin a good pup. You can mess them up so they don't reach their full potential or cause problems you have to later try and fix but to totally screw up a pup that was good to begin with is actually hard to do IMO.
> 
> ...


I agree. I think most minor stuff a good pup should bounce back from. Major abuse, or serious over controlling, I could see how that could ruin a pup. 
That why I started the other thread. I believe both genetics and training play a big part. I personally have taken "no good" dogs, and work them, but looking at who judged them, and their handling, its no wonder. Yet these dogs weren't ruined, just had some set backs.

Like the pups I talked about from my litter, one did have a traumatic attack, the other, while probably bad handling, I don't think anything extreme happened. They probably would work in the hands of a good trainer. But why start with a lower end dog?

I don't have any issue admitting if a dog I produced isn't to my standard. I want to produce better with each breeding, and am honest with myself about it. I want to produce dogs that can take most anything and still be great work dogs. I understand that doesn't happen. With every pup though.


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

Skip Morgart said:


> Losing my temper in training. Now when it happens I stop, put the dog away calmly, and tell myself what a stupid, unproductive emotion that is from me for training.


I like this one a lot too Skip. I'm guilty of this myself. I try to tell myself that if I'm frustrated, the dog probably is as well and I'm not helping any by pushing onwards.

Craig


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Craig Snyder said:


> I like this one a lot too Skip. I'm guilty of this myself. I try to tell myself that if I'm frustrated, the dog probably is as well and I'm not helping any by pushing onwards.
> 
> Craig


Me too. 

I probably wouldn't put the level I'm talking about under "ruining the dog," but IME it sure is a common and counterproductive mistake.

And it's one I admit that I didn't learn to consistently stop making until a pretty "mature" age. 








Brett Bowen said:


> So it's been brought up a few times in another thread that handler mistakes can ruin a good pup. Figured that was a good enough topic for it's own thread.
> 
> So let's hear them, what things do handlers do that in your mind ruin a dog?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Training a dog with a method that isn't suited for the dog. This often happens when the "trainer" doesn't have any experience in anything other then what he/she was taught.
"That's how I was taught so that's what I'll do" It also means I don't know how to do anything else and I cant read the dog.


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## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Me too.
> 
> I probably wouldn't put the level I'm talking about under "ruining the dog," but IME it sure is a common and counterproductive mistake.
> 
> And it's one I admit that I didn't learn to consistently stop making until a pretty "mature" age.



Yes, I didn't mean to the point of "ruining the dog"...I realized it in plenty of time.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I was curious about something. How does one define a ruined dog? And of those who can offer a definition how many dogs have you actually seen ruined and by what means?


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## Karen Havins (Apr 22, 2012)

Craig Snyder said:


> I like this one a lot too Skip. I'm guilty of this myself. I try to tell myself that if I'm frustrated, the dog probably is as well and I'm not helping any by pushing onwards.
> 
> Craig


This was a big one for me. Not too long ago, as in...a couple of weeks tops, Tauren decided he didn't know how to sit. 
I mean...literally didn't know how to sit. 
He's 3, has a firm grasp of OB, and this was at home with no distractions. He's lucky I didn't kill him because I wanted to choke the life out of him with my bare hands. Is that bad? lol

I'll say this though...the next day, he went overboard with his trying to please while working, so I at least got an apology. 

It's not often I see the 'bulldog' in there like that, but he was in a mood, his face was mutinous and set in a dick way...it was downhill from there. 
Stupid of me to get into a pissing match with a 115 pound truck...but there you have it...lol


Great thread...another mistake I have seen since I am trying to get new ppl involved with working their dogs.. (starting with IronDog as we have a lot of it at our American Bulldog shows) but when people don't have a clear idea of where they are going they can confuse the dogs.


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## Travis Ragin (Apr 10, 2010)

Alice Bezemer said:


> 4 REWARD!!!! This seems to be lacking in a lot of trainers...they are quick to point out the dogs mistakes but slow to reward. If he does the job then reward him/her accordinly...I don't mean a pat on the head and a good boy/girl....REWARD him/her....*Show your dog you are pleased! Go nuts!* You might think that a ball or bite roll for your dog is a reward...he gets to play and thats a reward...NO...*there is no bigger reward than the owner!* Make sure your dog knows this. You want your dog working for YOU, not for a ball or snack!




You can say that again...


....and again and again!!






great post,

t


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## Travis Ragin (Apr 10, 2010)

Alice Bezemer said:


> 4 REWARD!!!! This seems to be lacking in a lot of trainers...they are quick to point out the dogs mistakes but slow to reward. If he does the job then reward him/her accordinly...I don't mean a pat on the head and a good boy/girl....REWARD him/her....Show your dog you are pleased! Go nuts! You might think that a ball or bite roll for your dog is a reward...he gets to play and thats a reward...NO...there is no bigger reward then the owner! Make sure your dog knows this. You want your dog working for YOU, not for a ball or snack!



And where is the ball drive/food drive/ people who say that dogs don't have any pack drive committee........ on this one??


You folks should be all over this like a dog on a raw chicken leg quarter:neutral:





How arrogant,selfish,egotistical,delusional of you Ms.Bezemer-- for forcing/expecting your working dog to work.........for "Free"


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## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

The biggest problem I have is getting my wife to use commands that I use, the dog gets in her way in the kitchen, she tells her to get back, when I use back as a recall command. 

I also agree with the above post, they will work just for praise, and to make you happy.....to a point.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Others have said it, and I think it's a very big one, not spending enough time and having the patience to build a good, solid foundation. 

Not spending enough time on the little things that may seem tedious and boring but are very important in the long run.

Another thing is going to a seminar, and seeing a certain method to do a certain thing, but not understanding all the steps and mechanics to get to the end point, and trying it anyway. Many times this is the recipe for a confused dog, and frustrated handler.

Alice I agree, T Floyd said "the dog should believe you carry a ball in your heart" which is the same thing as what you are saying. This doesn't mean physical rewards are not also very important (ball, tug, whatever).


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Travis Ragin said:


> And where is the ball drive/food drive/ people who say that dogs don't have any pack drive committee........ on this one??
> You folks should be all over this like a dog on a raw chicken leg quarter:neutral:
> How arrogant,selfish,egotistical,delusional of you Ms.Bezemer-- for forcing/expecting your working dog to work.........for "Free"


Actually I believe what most people say is that you don't train a dog 100% using only the dogs happiness to please his handler. We use tools like balls, tugs, etc., in conjunction with the dogs desire to please his handler. Where things get mucked up is with people who don't know how to transition their dogs, and people who don't have a good feel for dogs. If you expect a dog to have joy working for his handler, the handler must be able to show the dog his own heart and joy for the dog. If you don't, then your dog will forever only work for a ball, tug, toy, or food, whatever tool is being used.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Praise must be given in a timely manner.


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

susan tuck said:


> Actually I believe what most people say is that you don't train a dog 100% using only the dogs happiness to please his handler. We use tools like balls, tugs, etc., in conjunction with the dogs desire to please his handler. Where things get mucked up is with people who don't know how to transition their dogs, and people who don't have a good feel for dogs. If you expect a dog to have joy working for his handler, the handler must be able to show the dog his own heart and joy for the dog. If you don't, then your dog will forever only work for a ball, tug, toy, or food, whatever tool is being used.


I totally believe this! It's also one of the reasons that I think, at least in SAR work we can have dogs that are too obessed with balls or tug toys to the extent that they almost have no brain function aside from that. It might make them easier to train initially but I think it makes for a "less flexible" and possibly a less reliable dog as you progress to more advance work. I think once the dog understands that a certain task is their "job", regardless of reward or non-reward, and its expected to be done 100% of the time, you can than have a great working dog. I don't think I'm quite there yet but I think I'm close.

As long as they are only ever focused on the physical reward like a ball or food, I think you can always have potential issues. The handler/dog relationship should not be overshadowed by a dog/toy or dog/food relationship.


Craig


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Brett Bowen said:


> So it's been brought up a few times in another thread that handler mistakes can ruin a good pup. Figured that was a good enough topic for it's own thread.
> 
> So let's hear them, what things do handlers do that in your mind ruin a dog?


Pushing the puppy too far, too fast and lately watching protection training there seems to be a rush to pour on the pressure work. My other pet peeve is zero tolerance for puppy stages. Stages are where for some odd reason as a part of mental development, the puppy changes in terms of response to the handler, ability to handler pressure and even some things that could be placed in the nerve department. Initially, if the puppy passed your battery of tests for environmental/people nerves and drives, don't panic if he goes off as he is growing up. If you didn't test, then yep, you may have cause for worry but really you minds well let it grow up and mature and see what he is.

T


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## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

moved to new thread at
http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f9/whines-fusses-constantly-24905/#post356004 




(This thread is about _" .... what things do handlers do that in your mind ruin a dog?"_)


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