# Ecollar vibrate/tapping



## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

I am wondering what people use this function for. I have had it on my last two ecollars and haven't really used it.

And try and hold back if you are thinking of making some kind of dirty joke here=;


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

I use the vibrate on soft or nervous dogs that don't respond well to the electric stem.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Peter Cho (Apr 21, 2010)

I used it to cue the dog that I am putting a collar on him when I put on the dummy fursaver. The dog then associates e collar with this dummy fursaver. pavlov. Works like magic.


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## lannie dulin (Sep 4, 2012)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> I am wondering what people use this function for. I have had it on my last two ecollars and haven't really used it.
> 
> And try and hold back if you are thinking of making some kind of dirty joke here=;


Mine has tone rather than vibrate and I use it as a quite command. When I'm at a distance (like on the field training) and the dog is barking (the one that i'm not working at the moment that is sitting in the van) I give them the tone. The nick will follow if they don't get quite.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

I use vibrate as a positive mark.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

I use tone for attention in the long down. If the dog starts sniffing around or shifting his weight I need a little reminder that I'm watching him.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I use vibrate to make sure my collar is working.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

susan tuck said:


> I use vibrate to make sure my collar is working.


:lol: Yay! I'm not the only one that does it!


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## Tamara McIntosh (Jul 14, 2009)

Hey Jen miss ya!!

I used it on my sibe with the bark collar to teach him how to turn it off.


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## Joshua Dirkx (Sep 12, 2011)

Makes sure the thing is on :razz:

I also tap it while we're hiking or out somewhere as a "check in" button - come look at me so I can see where you are and/or give another command


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> ...
> And try and hold back if you are thinking of making some kind of dirty joke here=;


I tried,


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Alice Bezemer said:


> :lol: Yay! I'm not the only one that does it!


I'm in good company if you do it too!!
:smile:


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Damn you Faisal.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Faisal Khan said:


> I tried,




Great looking Gordon.........but that's just cold! :lol:


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Damn you Faisal.


Exactly!!!


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

susan tuck said:


> I'm in good company if you do it too!!
> :smile:


I always assumed that that was what the vibrate function was for. To check if it works. Great time saver :lol:


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## Ted Summers (May 14, 2012)

I use it for the "pay attention to me" thing. Buzz and he'll stop what he's doing and look at me and wait for another command


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## Gregory Doud (Nov 10, 2008)

I've seen the vibrate feature used very successfully in law enforcement tactical training. Using vibrate means to come to heel position whether the handler is standing, kneeling, or laying prone. It's a great way to recall your dog to heel position without using your voice and blowing your cover if doing tactical training. - Greg


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Ted Summers said:


> I use it for the "pay attention to me" thing. Buzz and he'll stop what he's doing and look at me and wait for another command



I do this too, with my deaf dog. Then he looks at me to get a hand-signaled command.

A good way to signal the dog when you can't or don't want to use your voice.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I use it to make sure it is working and the charge is good.

For the adult I use it as a positive marker to let the dog know she is doing good.. for the pup I use it to let the dog know that the collar is on her if I am using it to help her to contain herself.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

For those of you that use it as a positive mark...do you use it just the same way a verbal marker or clicker would be used? By that I mean that does the vibrate release the dog from the behavior and tell the dog it can access their reward (bite/treat/ball and so on)?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> For those of you that use it as a positive mark...do you use it just the same way a verbal marker or clicker would be used? By that I mean that does the vibrate release the dog from the behavior and tell the dog it can access their reward (bite/treat/ball and so on)?


I dont..not as a release..I do use it as a positive remark..but sort of as a bridge I guess, for this current adult anyhow...YES! or FREE! is release...


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Joby Becker said:


> I dont..not as a release..I do use it as a positive remark..but sort of as a bridge I guess, for this current adult anyhow...YES! or FREE! is release...


So more like "I like what you are doing, keep doing it?"


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> So more like "I like what you are doing, keep doing it?"


yes..

although I personally am not sure what effect it has////it seems to be fine but dog is always amped up more when I use the ecollar this way...could be a little confusion..and stress from it as well..using the ecollar in this manner,..more so than when I just use verbal bridges...

not surprising if this is the case..the puppy I have given corrections with the collar less than 5 times, but when she feels the vibrate when I put it on her, there is never a need to correct or vibrate really at this point. she does at this point asscoaite the collar with the ability to reenforce with +P...which I am sure the adult does as well, even though I never used the vibrate in this manner with her.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> I use tone for attention in the long down. If the dog starts sniffing around or shifting his weight I need a little reminder that I'm watching him.


I use it for attention as well. Like refocusing for a heel etc. 

I also use it for helping to create excitement and pumping the dog. Much like some use a prong to stimulate the dog before a facing attack during training while restraining the dog. I also use it as a reminder while doing the object guard if the dog tries to push the line either biting to early or being dragged off.


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

I am taking the Yogi approach with my young dog. Just starting to nick with the release command while rewarding. He has had 1 session today first with food then with ball reward for OB. Not using the vibrate function but the actual light level stim for reward


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Geoff Empey said:


> I use it for attention as well. Like refocusing for a heel etc.
> 
> I also use it for helping to create excitement and pumping the dog. Much like some use a prong to stimulate the dog before a facing attack during training while restraining the dog. I also use it as a reminder while doing the object guard if the dog tries to push the line either biting to early or being dragged off.


That seems like a few different uses that might be confusing to the dog?

To use it to pump up a dog, and then to "remind" a dog that is presumably too pumped up in an OG? Can't see your dog needing to be pumped up LOL.

Also to mean to look at you in some circumstance and in others too look at decoy?


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Faisal Khan said:


> I am taking the Yogi approach with my young dog. Just starting to nick with the release command while rewarding. He has had 1 session today first with food then with ball reward for OB. Not using the vibrate function but the actual light level stim for reward


Okay, I want to understand this. I understand using light stim or tap as a reward marker...but is the goal here for the stim to actually BE the reward? Like it will be paired with something good enough that the dog will be classically conditioned to find it rewarding? The same way we pair praise with rewards so that hopefully the praise becomes rewarding?

Forgive my ignorance if I am way off base here.


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Yes, dog equalizes stim with reward (ball or food). Dog gets reward when performing exercise with attention. So later when dog's attention wanders off, stim brings it back and he gets a reward. Drive gets higher, not lower.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Faisal Khan said:


> Yes, dog equalizes stim with reward (ball or food). Dog gets reward when performing exercise with attention. So later when dog's attention wanders off, stim brings it back and he gets a reward. Drive gets higher, not lower.


But the stim will always be paired with reward? Or just sometimes?

Thanks for all the explanations!


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> But the stim will always be paired with reward? Or just sometimes?
> 
> Thanks for all the explanations!


The word "always" means big trouble in dog world. In teaching yes, it is always. This always will depend on the dog, a few weeks a few months? Dogs response gets conditioned, then it is random. Goal is to get dog back into working and in drive as you want because dog wants to and not because he is forced to.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Faisal Khan said:


> The word "always" means big trouble in dog world. In teaching yes, it is always. This always will depend on the dog, a few weeks a few months? Dogs response gets conditioned, then it is random. Goal is to get dog back into working and in drive as you want because dog wants to and not because he is forced to.


Thank you. I understand now, random in the end.


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Awesome, as I am not good at descriptions! Will know more about it in the next few months as I apply it, so far have only seen others apply it and have seen it work like described. Yogi showed me how to start with a prong stim initially, same principle. You show the dog that correction is a super nice thing


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> That seems like a few different uses that might be confusing to the dog?
> 
> To use it to pump up a dog, and then to "remind" a dog that is presumably too pumped up in an OG? Can't see your dog needing to be pumped up LOL.
> 
> Also to mean to look at you in some circumstance and in others too look at decoy?


Just different scenarios and using it the same way as any collar. Just communication that's all. It's all what I do through body language and verbal language and what scenario the context is in how the dog 'sees' the tapping. OG dog thinks 'tap tap' Oh yeah back to depat .. Being held by agitation harness ready to go out on a bungee to bite a decoy 'tap tap tap' on the "E" with verbal and physical encouragement is totally different. Both exercises totally different, same communication tool used the same way to deliver a different message. Dogs don't think in one dimension, so why should we use any tool in one dimension either? 

Yeah both my dogs don't need any pumping to work, but I'm a big believer of 'motivation' even for the super motivated. Many poo poo me for doing it especially the way I use the clicker in conjunction. But my dogs do what is asked from them with tails wagging, happy and give their all. I can't argue with that.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Faisal Khan said:


> Yes, dog equalizes stim with reward (ball or food). Dog gets reward when performing exercise with attention. So later when dog's attention wanders off, stim brings it back and he gets a reward. Drive gets higher, not lower.


Jennifer and this is exactly the way I use it for focus on the heel. Dog drifts off you could do the 'Cesar touch' with the touch with your shoe or a heeling stick and get the same effect as a tap or low stim, I still do the Cesar touch from time to time and use a heeling stick randomly as well. 

It was always reinforced in the beginning by some sort of reward once the dog complied. Then the rewards get faded and random but the behaviour becomes more solid as you are fading and you don't really have to ask for it or touch the dog as you still can throw in random rewards or touch when the dog is doing the right thing. The key is timing as in everything. Especially with hair trigger dogs like we own.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Geoff Empey said:


> Just different scenarios and using it the same way as any collar. Just communication that's all. It's all what I do through body language and verbal language and what scenario the context is in how the dog 'sees' the tapping. OG dog thinks 'tap tap' Oh yeah back to depat .. Being held by agitation harness ready to go out on a bungee to bite a decoy 'tap tap tap' on the "E" with verbal and physical encouragement is totally different. Both exercises totally different, same communication tool used the same way to deliver a different message. Dogs don't think in one dimension, so why should we use any tool in one dimension either?
> 
> Yeah both my dogs don't need any pumping to work, but I'm a big believer of 'motivation' even for the super motivated. Many poo poo me for doing it especially the way I use the clicker in conjunction. But my dogs do what is asked from them with tails wagging, happy and give their all. I can't argue with that.


Okay, thanks for your further explanation.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

susan tuck said:


> I use vibrate to make sure my collar is working.


Genius :grin:


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## Ted Summers (May 14, 2012)

This why I roll around here. I just got a few great ideas for alternate/other uses for an e-collar and the vib Fx.

RE stim = reward. The "sit means sit" guys are big on this. They give the dog a command he does it and it they apply a super low level nic. I asked one of them how they correct a dog and he said, "the same way you correct a kid.... you turn up the volume. The stim is my voice. Low is conversational communication, good job do it again, come get your reward. High means WTF are you doing stop it." Makes sense you can use your hand to praise AND correct a dog, I guess you can use an e-collar to praise and correct too. The timing and the remote functions could be a nightmare. I couldn't do it with an Edge system as you have to flip between nick and constant one one knob and a 'volume' on the other. Tritonics would work on some of there collars. If it works it works.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Faisal Khan said:


> Awesome, as I am not good at descriptions! Will know more about it in the next few months as I apply it, so far have only seen others apply it and have seen it work like described. Yogi showed me how to start with a prong stim initially, same principle. You show the dog that correction is a super nice thing


but then you might also use higher stim for corrections later at times? on top of the random low stim? or no?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Geoff Empey said:


> I use it for attention as well. Like refocusing for a heel etc.
> 
> I also use it for helping to create excitement and pumping the dog. Much like some use a prong to stimulate the dog before a facing attack during training while restraining the dog. I also use it as a reminder while doing the object guard if the dog tries to push the line either biting to early or being dragged off.



Geoff,

GREAT idea. I used the tone for refocus attention on the long down and never thought about it for heeling attention instead of low level stim 

Re: pairing stim with reward
There's nothing new in dog training, Gene England was telling us how he plays tug with his dog while applying low level stim so the dog thinks "reward" when he stims him during training at a seminar 15 years ago


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> but then you might also use higher stim for corrections later at times? on top of the random low stim? or no?


Yes, after initial training period the level can be higher to account for the state of drive at the given moment. The objective is to get the dog to offer behavior that could result in a reward from you or the helper.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Geoff,
> 
> GREAT idea. I used the tone for refocus attention on the long down and never thought about it for heeling attention instead of low level stim


I see it as attention is just that. Doesn't really matter the exercise the way I see it. You can use it the same as you would any collar to guide the dog. 



Thomas Barriano said:


> Re: pairing stim with reward
> There's nothing new in dog training, Gene England was telling us how he plays tug with his dog while applying low level stim so the dog thinks "reward" when he stims him during training at a seminar 15 years ago :smile:


Just new to me! LOL!


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## Peter Cho (Apr 21, 2010)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Geoff,
> 
> GREAT idea. I used the tone for refocus attention on the long down and never thought about it for heeling attention instead of low level stim
> 
> ...



We pair stim with reward all the time. When we say "break" we stim. When teaching, all commands are done with a stim....or activation. The concept is this. Dogs are SITUATIONAL learners. The e collar is a tool to manage threshhold. Over the threshhold, it blocks observed behavior. Under threshhold, it promotes or amply behavior and or increases the instance of the behavior. This is why we call it command amplification. speed is then created or undesired behavior blocked. The best trainers know can read this threshhold and too many are afraid to go to threshhold. But without knowing this, the e collar is a useless tool, imo, for high level training. 

So, knowing this, the vibrate mode is a useless feature because it does not ensure the stim is on. IMO, you must put the e collar contacts to yourself and stim BEFORE you put it on the dog, ensure it is working as it should. Its respect to your dog.

I also think it hinders the trust between the handler and dog if handler only uses the e collar as a threat tool (positive punishment) to block behavior. Hell, I think most uses it as a nagging tool, which often amplifies unwanted behavior.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Peter Cho said:


> We pair stim with reward all the time. When we say "break" we stim. When teaching, all commands are done with a stim....or activation. The concept is this. Dogs are SITUATIONAL learners. The e collar is a tool to manage threshhold. Over the threshhold, it blocks observed behavior. Under threshhold, it promotes or amply behavior and or increases the instance of the behavior. This is why we call it command amplification. speed is then created or undesired behavior blocked. The best trainers know can read this threshhold and too many are afraid to go to threshhold. But without knowing this, the e collar is a useless tool, imo, for high level training.
> 
> So, knowing this, the vibrate mode is a useless feature because it does not ensure the stim is on. IMO, you must put the e collar contacts to yourself and stim BEFORE you put it on the dog, ensure it is working as it should. Its respect to your dog.
> 
> I also think it hinders the trust between the handler and dog if handler only uses the e collar as a threat tool (positive punishment) to block behavior. Hell, I think most uses it as a nagging tool, which often amplifies unwanted behavior.


Peter,

That makes sense. I just thought Alice and Susan used vibrate to see if the unit was working because they were girls. You'd never catch a real man wimping out and not using real STIM


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Peter Cho said:


> We pair stim with reward all the time. When we say "break" we stim. When teaching, all commands are done with a stim....or activation. The concept is this. Dogs are SITUATIONAL learners. The e collar is a tool to manage threshhold. Over the threshhold, it blocks observed behavior. Under threshhold, it promotes or amply behavior and or increases the instance of the behavior. This is why we call it command amplification. speed is then created or undesired behavior blocked. The best trainers know can read this threshhold and too many are afraid to go to threshhold. But without knowing this, the e collar is a useless tool, imo, for high level training.


I have never used the vibrate function except with one softer dog like Chris Smith did. I could have used low stim too, but it was a lower end two dog ecollar unit and both dogs would have been on VASTLY different levels so I just trained one on vibrate so I wouldn't get confused:roll: 

I really only use my collar for walking in the woods with the dogs off leash (lots of wildlife), but did train a bunch of behaviours with it anyways so the dog would understand the collar for more than just recall. I also did not want to JUST use it for the recall since I work a SAR dog and don't want any island of safety stuff.

I trained with it at low levels for various behaviours, higher levels for corrections. My dog is very drivey when using it, but I never did pair it with rewards like you are talking about. The details and finesse part of using it the way you are talking about is intriguing, but seems perhaps beyond my current abilities and needs since I don't have a collar on her often? I would love to take a course with someone good who is using it with very "high level training" in this way at some point, but not likely with my money situation for some time.

Thanks to everyone for their input and ideas.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Peter Cho said:


> We pair stim with reward all the time. When we say "break" we stim. When teaching, all commands are done with a stim....or activation. The concept is this. Dogs are SITUATIONAL learners. The e collar is a tool to manage threshhold. Over the threshhold, it blocks observed behavior. Under threshhold, it promotes or amply behavior and or increases the instance of the behavior. This is why we call it command amplification. speed is then created or undesired behavior blocked. The best trainers know can read this threshhold and too many are afraid to go to threshhold. But without knowing this, the e collar is a useless tool, imo, for high level training.
> 
> So, knowing this, the vibrate mode is a useless feature because it does not ensure the stim is on. IMO, you must put the e collar contacts to yourself and stim BEFORE you put it on the dog, ensure it is working as it should. Its respect to your dog.
> 
> I also think it hinders the trust between the handler and dog if handler only uses the e collar as a threat tool (positive punishment) to block behavior. Hell, I think most uses it as a nagging tool, which often amplifies unwanted behavior.


Why couldnt the vibe function work to teach or are you just saying as a way to check that ts working is redundant as i would think some dogs weather soft or sensitive or even smart would learn that the vibe will follow stim if i dont pull my head in?


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## kerry engels (Nov 7, 2010)

Gregory Doud said:


> I've seen the vibrate feature used very successfully in law enforcement tactical training. Using vibrate means to come to heel position whether the handler is standing, kneeling, or laying prone. It's a great way to recall your dog to heel position without using your voice and blowing your cover if doing tactical training. - Greg


 

This is how I use "tone," as a silent recall. It works great.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Peter Cho said:


> ......the vibrate mode is a useless feature because it does not ensure the stim is on. IMO, you must put the e collar contacts to yourself and stim BEFORE you put it on the dog, ensure it is working as it should. Its respect to your dog..........


Peter I didn't know this.  Someone I used to train with in L.A., would test ecollars using vibrate, so I did it this way. Thanks for letting me know, from now on, I'll test the stim on myself instead of vibrate.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Peter Cho said:


> We pair stim with reward all the time. When we say "break" we stim. When teaching, all commands are done with a stim....or activation. The concept is this. Dogs are SITUATIONAL learners. The e collar is a tool to manage threshhold. Over the threshhold, it blocks observed behavior. Under threshhold, it promotes or amply behavior and or increases the instance of the behavior. This is why we call it command amplification. speed is then created or undesired behavior blocked. The best trainers know can read this threshhold and too many are afraid to go to threshhold. But without knowing this, the e collar is a useless tool, imo, for high level training.
> 
> 
> I also think it hinders the trust between the handler and dog if handler only uses the e collar as a threat tool (positive punishment) to block behavior. Hell, I think most uses it as a nagging tool, which often amplifies unwanted behavior.


I do understand this. I think that in any situation with any collar many do not a) do not understand thresholds and how they apply to their training. b) as you say are afraid to take it to a threshold. 

This applies to any collar prong, choke whatever not just e-collars. So many get into a trap of nagging the dog and the dog may comply in training but never learns enough to be totally trustworthy or reliable in a trial situation. 



Peter Cho said:


> So, knowing this, the vibrate mode is a useless feature because it does not ensure the stim is on. IMO, you must put the e collar contacts to yourself and stim BEFORE you put it on the dog, ensure it is working as it should. Its respect to your dog.


I'm not really sure if I am understanding your comment here about the 'tapping/vibrate' being useless. Are you saying it is useless as a training tool or useless as testing the collar? As I do find its use useful in my training.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

maybe this is too fundamental for all the pros out there, but since it wasn't specifically mentioned, i do NOT agree that you can confirm an Ecollar is working on your dog simply by zapping yourself with it first. you must be sure the contacts are actually making consistent contact and that can only be done on the dog.

- i have wasted time cutting corners and not doing this

- whether you use the spring loaded Hawx collar or just cinch down the stock one, i feel you should test the collar when it's on the DOG, and it only takes a minute or so
- test with both modes if you are super anal, but if you have a collar that will vibe but not shock, throw the damn thing in the trash or send it back
- you should know your dog well enuff to see a reaction at the min setting and THEN you are good to go


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

for my collar. the vibrate seems to use more juice.

When I say I use it sometimes to make sure the collar is working and to check the charge, I mean just that.

I did not mean to imply that by doing this I just assume that the stim function is really working and that it is making proper contact with the dog.


I still check that the stim is working both on myself and my dog.


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