# Ring questions



## Raymond Dettloff (Nov 2, 2006)

So ive watched a few videos of french ring trials, and i was wondering why they train a dog to go for a leg bite when they are using the starter pistol, i would think that the dog would be trained to take the weapon arm so that they can not be harmed? Ive noticed this in a lot of formats actually, why is this ?


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## steve gossmeyer (Jan 9, 2007)

its just a distractant. this is a sport. not a psd or pp dog training method. french ring is built mainly around leg dogs.


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## Raymond Dettloff (Nov 2, 2006)

makes sense, sorry if this was a dumb question i am new at all this stuff


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## steve gossmeyer (Jan 9, 2007)

no question is a dumb question. everyone has to learn


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Steve is right, it's a sport, not PSD/PP training. 

The thing with going after the weapon arm/hand, is that the decoy can hold that out as a target, then remove the target at the last second (esquive) and wave at the dog as they go flying by. Dog hits the ground, turns, and comes back again, only to have the decoy repeat the manuever. I've seen dogs esquived 7, 8, 9 times in a row this way, until the dog finally gave up and just quit trying to get the bite. 

With the esquive in Ring, upper body dogs are trained to target the center mass, shoulder/chest area.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Teo mariscal was in town yesterday from Spain, and we had a nice training session. I haven't worked Buko in about a month, so it was a good time for him.

Teo brought his new decoy, who in the film, if I can figure out how to get it on here, gets centered by the dog.

This should show you guys why I have complained in the past about the stupid elbow catches you are doing. Dogs tend to target where they are taught.


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## Lisa Geller (Mar 29, 2007)

Jeff,
It would be VERY cool if you could post some of that!!!


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## steve gossmeyer (Jan 9, 2007)

yeah jeff i wanna see some of your decoy work and some of your dogs workin. seein how you always put in your 2 cents. we never see any proof you do anything but hang on here. [-X


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

No decoy work from me, as it was just me working, but one of the decoys, Sandro, is one that I trained.

I am still waiting for him to get me a disc, and then I will have to bug Mike and Woody for how to post it.

Prepare to get schooled, as the work i have seen from you is inadequate at best. I am not saying this to make fun, but to inform you that you need to go work with someone that actually knows how to decoy.

John Johnson has a school, and is knowledgeable enough to teach new decoys some very good work. I highly recommend it, although you might want to start a physical fitness program. You are young enough to have some very good years ahead of you. I wish I had some of those years back. LOL

Do not let your ego blow off what I am saying. This would be very good for you. If I was your age again, I would seriously consider this, or contact one of the many very nice people in France, as they have ALWAYS invited me to come and decoy for them. Unfortunately, with my knees, I am an accident waiting to happen!!!!


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## Raymond Dettloff (Nov 2, 2006)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Steve is right, it's a sport, not PSD/PP training.
> 
> The thing with going after the weapon arm/hand, is that the decoy can hold that out as a target, then remove the target at the last second (esquive) and wave at the dog as they go flying by. Dog hits the ground, turns, and comes back again, only to have the decoy repeat the manuever. I've seen dogs esquived 7, 8, 9 times in a row this way, until the dog finally gave up and just quit trying to get the bite.
> 
> With the esquive in Ring, upper body dogs are trained to target the center mass, shoulder/chest area.


Ok so only In ring can the decoy esquive(which i believe means dodge) the bite? and do you lose a lot of points if the dog misses ??


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

No, you lose 1/2 a point. Many dogs, their drive will carry them to the bite, but weaknesses start to show when the decoys can esquive them over and over again. They need good drive and commitment, as well as good training to take them places in this sport.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> John Johnson has a school, and is knowledgeable enough to teach new decoys some very good work.


I found this:
http://www.vomartileskennel.com/videosal.html#S4
and 
http://awdf.net/awdfmondio.html

but no current school.

Any idea how to find it?


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Jeff, in all seriousness, what is the purpose of the esquive (I admit my ignorance about sport dogs). Is it to demonstrate the committment of the dog to the bite?

DFrost


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## steve gossmeyer (Jan 9, 2007)

correctomondo


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## steve gossmeyer (Jan 9, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> No decoy work from me, as it was just me working, but one of the decoys, Sandro, is one that I trained.
> 
> I am still waiting for him to get me a disc, and then I will have to bug Mike and Woody for how to post it.
> 
> ...


ok you havent seen anything but pics of my decoying dogs. and yes im not a top level trial decoy. but as far as training wise i like to think im pretty good. yes i have alot to learn considering my age. i have put about seven years of learning to train and decoy into this. (not that is much) but i would love to go be trained by the best. now as far as the work you have seen from me. i have only put pics on here and anyone can be made good in pics. ill have to get some videos up to prove you wrong my friend. but like i said i dont know all but as for as a training decoy i have been told i am very good. i could care less about trial decoy work. im in it for the training. There is a reason im moving to train with one of the best decoys i have ever seen work and learn what i need to improve from him.(justin eimer) you will see the skills. lets leave it at that.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

How about we leave it with you taking a look at John Johnson's school????

Working with Justin, or anyone is good, however, Johnson has worked a lot of dogs, and spent a lot of time in France learning from some really good decoys. I really don't think there is a comparison between the two.

Years go by quick, I know that I wish there would have been schools like that here when I was younger.

David, Steve is correct. As I said before there are dogs with drive to take them to the reward, but the esquive can take a weaker dog out of drive, and then you see the dog a bit differently.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> How about we leave it with you taking a look at John Johnson's school?


Where is it?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

OK, so now I have to look. It is on the east coast, I think.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I have a request in on another board.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I have a request in on another board.


OK, thanks.

I searched, but was unsuccessful except for the Florida school that had him on videos.


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## Kim Gossmeyer (Feb 24, 2007)

Its in Massachusetts


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## Kim Gossmeyer (Feb 24, 2007)

I was looking it up and found something about it on the leerburg forum... There is a web link but it is not working... so I am not sure what is going on with that... Here is what I read


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

That seems to be the same info I just got, although she was thinking that he doesn't have the decoy school anymore. That would suck.


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

Now I don't train for FR nor do I want to but isn't every bite pretty much leg bites? Now isn't that a trained target as is the upper body or say the elbow. Now its just preference whether your train a dog to bite upper body or the legs but its all targeting that you teach, actually I like a dog that'll bite both locations. From the vids I have seen of FR, the esquives seem to just make the dog want to bite more because they are made to miss and the game of chase is began. The dogs kick into prey and chase the decoy in order to get the bite. Now don't get me wrong because the decoys do look very athletic and in shape, I just have some of the same questions that the others have.


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## steve gossmeyer (Jan 9, 2007)

see i train my dogs to do both. upper and lower body now i concentrate on legs when i working for french ring. now when im not gettin ready for a trial and im working on my asr type training the the dog take what he feels best to take. unless its a forearm anything below the elbow is unacceptable for me. but thats just me. and you are correct with the esquive. but the point of that is to get the dog to not commit to the bite untill he can catch the decoy and not to launch out to early. but yes primarily it is leg bites.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> although she was thinking that he doesn't have the decoy school anymore. That would suck.


That's what I heard too, asking a PSD trainer in NY.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

jay lyda said:


> Now I don't train for FR nor do I want to but isn't every bite pretty much leg bites?


The dog can bite anywhere they want. However, legs or center mass upper body are the most effective targets, 99% of the time. They are the hardest ones to get out of the way, where as an arm is easy to show them remove at the last second. Unless the decoy is trying to scoop the dog, then the forearm is the perfect target.



jay lyda said:


> Now isn't that a trained target as is the upper body or say the elbow. Now its just preference whether your train a dog to bite upper body or the legs but its all targeting that you teach, actually I like a dog that'll bite both locations.


A good FR dog will bite anywhere. They have a primary target, but anything else is an acceptable secondary target. A dog who ONLY bites the legs is going to run into problems at the higher levels, as the decoy will put their arms/stick down in front of the legs and just not let the dog have that bite.



> From the vids I have seen of FR, the esquives seem to just make the dog want to bite more because they are made to miss and the game of chase is began. The dogs kick into prey and chase the decoy in order to get the bite. Now don't get me wrong because the decoys do look very athletic and in shape, I just have some of the same questions that the others have.


It's a combination of how the decoy uses the esquive, and the training the dog has recieved. We specifically work the dogs on the return from an esquive. So they know how to react and are conditioned to it. Some decoys after an esquive keep going backwards trying to make more space for another esquive attempt. Or to give the dog more time to see the threat. Others will turn and go forward into the dog, so they are right there making a threat as the dog turns. 

Part of how a dog reacts to an esquive, is dependent on the dogs character. Some dogs get ticked off, and turn and come back even faster/harder. Others needed that momentum they built up coming down the field to blow through the barrage/threat. Once that momentum is taken away, they may hesitate to come through the threat. Especially if they got smacked by the stick in that intial esquive, without getting the bite. 

That's part of what the esquive is designed to test. Once your dog has no more forward momentum, what do they do? And if they are esquived repeatedly, do they keep on trying or do they give up?


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## steve gossmeyer (Jan 9, 2007)

Kadi always has a good explanation thanx for helping explain better than i can


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

steve gossmeyer said:


> unless its a forearm anything below the elbow is unacceptable for me.


what's that leave? hands? i don't think anybody trains to bite hands...


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## steve gossmeyer (Jan 9, 2007)

that leave the rest of the body. i was sayin i dont like forearm bites. sorry should have been more clear


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

lol. i know what you meant. i was jerkin yur chain. if i could figure out how to put one of those smiley faces in, i would have...


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## steve gossmeyer (Jan 9, 2007)

um go to user pc then edit options the scroll down to misc options and change to enhanced interface then you will have them


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## steve gossmeyer (Jan 9, 2007)

Tim Martens said:


> lol. i know what you meant. i was jerkin yur chain. if i could figure out how to put one of those smiley faces in, i would have...


lol yeah


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Tim Martens said:


> if i could figure out how to put one of those smiley faces in, i would have...


http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/showthread.php?t=2791


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

:-(. ah ok. i had the one selected one level down from this where i could push a button to see all the smileys and it would tell me to click on them, but they'd never show up. i'm set now...


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## Lisa Geller (Mar 29, 2007)

Hi,

I posted a video under Bungee work, but it might apply to this leg dog discussion.

In Mondio we don't really worry too much about esquives on entry (not intentional ones anyway) But we do deal with accessories.

Steve/Jeff you two should come on over to Minnesota this June and check out our trial maybe certify in Mondio. I believe it is about 1/2 way for both of you. 

Also Ivan is an awesome Mondio decoy and holds workshops in Florida.
There are actually alot of FR decoys blooming in the US and really great ones in Mexico! I recently went to a Fernando dosta seminar (Really, Really good) the guy is excellent!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I am 43 this year, and too old to deal with Mondios rediculous decoy cert. plus the fact that if I do not get chosen to decoy in one of the 5 trials they have every year that I lose my cert after 2 years.

How rediculous is that? I do not see a need for all the silliness that is going on with the decoy cert for Mondio. We are not esquiving and dancing all over the place like FR. There is more, but it is a family thing, so I am not going to talk about that.

Don't get me started on Mondio decoys. We have three that are good, and why would anyone else use someone different. One gives an excellent seminar, so why not have him come in for a few days before the trial?? Totally worth it in my opinion, and the other two are easy enough to get.

Certifying in Mondio is a waste of time right now. Oh sure you can keep your cert if you go help with a seminar, but thats not really why people want to certify now is it????


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## Lisa Geller (Mar 29, 2007)

opps, sorry about that -- 
instead come, consume libations, and enjoy the fun?
how about that?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Uhhhhhhh, yeah, probably more than you wanted to know about the certs huh???


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## steve gossmeyer (Jan 9, 2007)

Lisa Geller said:


> Hi,
> 
> I posted a video under Bungee work, but it might apply to this leg dog discussion.
> 
> ...


i plan on trialing braxton in that trial. and hell with it ill go for the decoy cert. its only a 6 hours drive for me


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## steve gossmeyer (Jan 9, 2007)

well i got some training to do. thanx for the invite Lisa i will see you there. and why not ill go for the decoy cert. and ill be trialing my dog. Jeff see you there


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Not likely. Good luck with the certs, better start training, as they did not make them overly easy. I know a guy that runs 5 miles a day, and decoys all the time that says he barely made it.


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## steve gossmeyer (Jan 9, 2007)

yeah i know it isnt an easy feet thats why i ride a bike everyday. the catches and exercises im not worried about. its the endurance.


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## Lisa Geller (Mar 29, 2007)

Wonderful Steve, there will be a lot of good dogs trialing. It will be a indication of the rise of MondioRing in America :-o

here's the Goose getting esquived -- he's pretty fast moving but no match for this guy!

http://f9g.yahoofs.com/groups/g_hr_14611606/2648/__hr_/f287.jpg?grwM8QGBv_BOcD0Q


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## steve gossmeyer (Jan 9, 2007)

lol all good dogs can get it sometimes. i like the goose


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

My ring revolution is nearly complete, now to deal with those insolent rebels.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> My ring revolution is nearly complete, now to deal with those insolent rebels.


Yeah, well, you told me the revolution would be televised.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

First I have matters of a personal nature to attend to, but then, we will have a gathering. Then hopefully we can get everyone together and have it televised. Can't be worse than what they are putting on TV now.


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## Raymond Dettloff (Nov 2, 2006)

okay i think i get it now after 5 pages


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Just be glad we told you anything stinky pants. Maybe we'll go to page 6, maybe not


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## Raymond Dettloff (Nov 2, 2006)

hahaha, lets see if this makes it 6 for good measure


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

There, now we are done with you......begone!


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