# Strongest Quality



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

For breeders, what is the number one or strongest quality that you are looking for when breeding? I know this is a loaded question and there are many correct answers.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> For breeders, what is the number one or strongest quality that you are looking for when breeding? I know this is a loaded question and there are many correct answers.


Im not a breeder but make it my business to know something about it. The answer is simple the qualities that will compliment the bitch or the line.
Nuff said.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

I look for a Adventurous ,Contagious Smile,Emotionally secure,Open-minded, Passionate type of gal.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Health first, confidence second.


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## Adam Swilling (Feb 12, 2009)

Health and strong nerve, in that order. Even if everything else (prey, hunt, etc.) is off the charts, without those 2 traits I consider everything else moot.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Adam Swilling said:


> Health and strong nerve, in that order. Even if everything else (prey, hunt, etc.) is off the charts, without those 2 traits I consider everything else moot.


Arnt these things are a given when considering breeding our dogs.?


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## Adam Swilling (Feb 12, 2009)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Arnt these things are a given when considering breeding our dogs.?


I agree that they should be, but as we all know that's just not always the case. You will get the vast majority of people to say health, but nerve or confidence or whatever you want to call it is not always mentioned. Health is usually followed with the mention of some type of drive. I've heard more people mention 1. health and then, 2. something along the lines of "extreme prey drive" more than I've heard nerve. Go to 10 random breeder websites and count how many of them mention the word "nerve" when they talk about their breeding stock. I know Suttle mentions it on his site, but off the top of my head I can't think of another one, at least that I've personally visited. But almost all of them will mention how great their dogs' drive(s) is/are. But I'm with you,Mike. For me they are a given when talking about breeding.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Adam Swilling said:


> I agree that they should be, but as we all know that's just not always the case. You will get the vast majority of people to say health, but nerve or confidence or whatever you want to call it is not always mentioned. Health is usually followed with the mention of some type of drive. I've heard more people mention 1. health and then, 2. something along the lines of "extreme prey drive" more than I've heard nerve. Go to 10 random breeder websites and count how many of them mention the word "nerve" when they talk about their breeding stock. I know Suttle mentions it on his site, but off the top of my head I can't think of another one, at least that I've personally visited. But almost all of them will mention how great their dogs' drive(s) is/are. But I'm with you,Mike. For me they are a given when talking about breeding.


With my breed the only extreme that will get my attention is health, start talking about balance and that will get my attention


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Im with Mike on this one regardless of breed choice. Nerve and Health are fundamental requirements in any working breed. Balance is what I personally look for.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Maybe someone better explain todays views of "balance" then. Are we talking "balance" or what seems to be the norm for breeding today where specific traits are off the chart.....like what many refer to as ball drive. 

It is really easy to parrot health and balance but, doing is no so easy. If health was a priority, why are ther so many unhealthy dogs being produced?


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

So where does trainability come in? You can have nut-hard drives, but if you can't train or work with it...it's useless...=;


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## clifton anderson (Aug 30, 2007)

Solid nerves!


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## Adam Swilling (Feb 12, 2009)

When I'm looking at two dogs that I'm considering breeding, this is what I, personally, look at. This is especially true when it's a litter I'm wanting to keep something from. In this order:
1. health
2. strong nerve
3. drive (prey/hunt/retrieve)
4. desire to work
5. grip

Now, that's me; what I look for. I agree that nerve and health SHOULD be a given, but you're fooling yourself if you think it is. I guarantee you that at least 6 out of 10 breeders will forego at least the nerve part if they think the drives are "right". And that's what you see alot of with health as well. Many breeders will sacrifice both of those in the name of "extreme" drives. Now, when I say nerve, I'm not talking about conditioned behaviour through exposure. I'm talking about dogs that won't run from a chainsaw, even if it's never seen one, because it's there via DNA. But, like Howard said in his OP, this question is wide open, and there are many answers.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I watch to see which are the fierst to me with no handling. The next criteria is...which pup that never bullies and gets along with everyone and that the bullies steer clear of. He, or they, are the #1 picks.

I do like to see a touch of caution but a very fast recovery time.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Maybe someone better explain todays views of "balance" then. Are we talking "balance" or what seems to be the norm for breeding today where specific traits are off the chart.....like what many refer to as ball drive.
> 
> It is really easy to parrot health and balance but, doing is no so easy. If health was a priority, why are ther so many unhealthy dogs being produced?


Don what I mean by balance is a good balance of drives and temperament. Nothing fancy just a good steady dog who isn't over the line or sharp. I have a dog now that I think has to much nerve. To me ball drive is prey drive plain and simple. In the end they are just dogs. The reasons for so many inferior dogs being produced has been debated to death. We all know the reasons. 

I do have a parrot (african grey). Hes currently in bite training lol


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Pedigree health w/ an effort to improve not just breeding bad to good constantly and absolute confidence [environmental and people]. I'm not in the recovery camp when I'm picking for me. It hasn't been a biggie in the past but with the next pup, I will look at the retrieve.

Terrasita


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Don Turnipseed said:


> ...I do like to see a touch of caution but a very fast recovery time.


 I like this "bounce-back," doesn't mean they go off and cry about it for hours. A willingness to explore, get hurt, come back for more exploring...=D>


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## Kerry Foose (Feb 20, 2010)

clifton anderson said:


> Solid nerves!


what technique are you using to determine "nerve" in an infant pup?


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Extreme drive, nerve and health. All as important as the other. A dog with no drive wont work. I dog with bad health cant work and dog with bad nerves wont walk those healthy hips across the slippery floor to work.


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## Adam Swilling (Feb 12, 2009)

Kerry Foose said:


> what technique are you using to determine "nerve" in an infant pup?


 What are you considering "infant"? The original question was what traits are you looking for when considering a possible breeding, not what you look for in a pup.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Health, solid nerves and as close to a natural retrieve as I can get, pretty much together.


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## Kerry Foose (Feb 20, 2010)

Adam Swilling said:


> What are you considering "infant"? The original question was what traits are you looking for when considering a possible breeding, not what you look for in a pup.


Well Dons post got me thinking about when selecting a working pup from "solid nerved" - healthy parentage,
what would one look for in the individual pup out of that litter that would lead you to believe that that healthy pup will also have "nerve" .


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

I'd look at the sire and dam for all these qualitys mentioned. Hope to have a pup with some of the qualitys each parent has combined.


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## Ricardo Ashton (Jun 3, 2010)

A few things. 
Sound health,stable temperament,strong nerve,high prey & fight drive,biddability,then trainability last.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I want a pup that wants to bite the largest toy he can get. That is really first, then low thresholds, above average drive, and as long as we are out there, really good character.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

I'd have to say heart..a dog that doesn't give up or quit easily when things are difficult, painful, training or "life" experiences are hard, mistakes in training made, etc. We call it "try" in a horse. The Belgians call it a "big motor". For a breeding animal for me that would be most important. Of course health is important and decent structure for the work, but w/o a big temperament, health and structure won't get it done for me.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Low thresholds?

Can you explain why you want this? Most of my dogs, apart from the Briard (Berger de Brie) had / have low thresholds.

Thanks

Gill


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## Ricardo Ashton (Jun 3, 2010)

Kerry Foose said:


> Well Dons post got me thinking about when selecting a working pup from "solid nerved" - healthy parentage,
> what would one look for in the individual pup out of that litter that would lead you to believe that that healthy pup will also have "nerve" .


The farmers test helps in the selection of pups to ascertain their level of nerve. Just pick up the pup by the scruff & hold in the air for about 20 seconds. A pup with strong stable nerves will accept the position he's in wihout a fuss( no yelping,limbs relaxed).
Other pups with less nerve will yelp, become rigid, legs and or toes splayed out or act as though trying to walk away. Theres another test where the pup is held upside down as well.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Ricardo Ashton said:


> The farmers test helps in the selection of pups to ascertain their level of nerve. Just pick up the pup by the scruff & hold in the air for about 20 seconds. A pup with strong stable nerves will accept the position he's in wihout a fuss( no yelping,limbs relaxed).
> Other pups with less nerve will yelp, become rigid, legs and or toes splayed out or act as though trying to walk away. Theres another test where the pup is held upside down as well.


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## Danny Craig (Dec 19, 2010)

Health, Working Drive, Nerve, Endurance, Combativity, Gripping behavior, Pedigree. And, I'll admit it, the way the dog looks matters a bit too. I like an ass-kicking dog that's also easy on the eyes.


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## Kara Fitzpatrick (Dec 2, 2009)

im not a breeder, but if i was going to breed I would look for strong nerves then health.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Danny Craig said:


> Health, Working Drive, Nerve, Endurance, Combativity, Gripping behavior, Pedigree. And, I'll admit it, the way the dog looks matters a bit too. I like an ass-kicking dog that's also easy on the eyes.


 A show rating is very important in working lines in my breed.
Every one keeps mentioning the same things over and over in different ways are not almost all of these qualities supposed to be a given when breeding.
If the occasional extreme pops up this animal could be used to compliment the other who may be lacking
or marginal in this area.
All this is elementary rite? what are you as breeders goals I would also be interested to here how long you all have been involved with the breed before you have started breeding your dogs what makes you think you should be a keeper of your breed. "just wondering"
Unfortunately I don't think there is one German Shepherd breeder who has replied to this thread.


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## Wawashkashi Tashi (Aug 25, 2009)

Howard Gaines III said:


> For breeders, what is the number one or strongest quality that you are looking for when breeding? I know this is a loaded question and there are many correct answers.


*Strong, stable nerves!!! *
Bill always says with his Bouvs, he breeds for nerves, _then nerves_, *then* aggression! ;-) -I've seen sooo many Bouvs that are real sharp w/ a boatload of aggression, but really lack the confidence to back it up with anyone that isn't already intimidated by the dog to begin with... What the heck good is that?!
And in the Boerboel?? Forget about it! I've never seen a breed of dog so fraught with poor temperament! #-o


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## Ricardo Ashton (Jun 3, 2010)

Don Turnipseed said:


>


Very nice boy you got there Don. He looks like he's going to be a great prospect when he grows up. Seems to be very calm & stable, accepting the position he's in really well.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: All this is elementary rite? what are you as breeders goals I would also be interested to here how long you all have been involved with the breed before you have started breeding your dogs what makes you think you should be a keeper of your breed. "just wondering"

Goals change as you go along. At least they should. I have no idea how many GSD's I worked, but there has been a lot of them.

Keeper of the breed ? Look at all the retards out there that think they can train. Many of them are breeders. I figure what is the worst that can happen ? I have seen way too many "breeders" that are kennel blind money grubbing weasels in my lifetime.

I stopped breeding years ago because I could not deal with culling anymore. Now breeders just sell them as pets. I see dogs that I consider to be average called extreme. With that going on, whats the worst that could happen ? : )

I bred Rotts, and got carried away. I made dogs that were too much for a lot of people. So I have been re-thinking what I want to do with dogs for some time now. It is going to be tricky, as I do like a dog that is too much, and I have to look at things differently, or I could very well end up with the same problem that I had back then.

Now there are guarantees, which I think is just goofy, there are pages and pages of contracts out there, there are puppy forms to fill out online. 

The other thing is that people want to "own" a workingline dog as a status symbol. WTF is that about ??

Years ago I tried to look at breeding as creating what I want. Now I am older and what I want has changed slightly. It was easy back then, as I just wanted to make godzilla. Now I want to make something a bit different. 

Ask this question again in 5 years and maybe I will have a more definite answer. : ) If you see me selling off a bunch of dogs and buying new ones, you will know I got something wrong this time around.


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## Ricardo Ashton (Jun 3, 2010)

Jeff,yes, goals and purposes for the uses for which ppl breed their dogs do change. But a few things will always remain constant. Like health requirements, temperament,and mental stability. Most large kennels focus on profits rather than performance, so there's really no set standard for them,other than what they produce should look like what they say it is, or what the masses think it should look, like to increase their sales.
I personally breed for performance. I don't keep pets. Either a dog bred at my kennel can do the job, or it cant. If it can great, if not it gets PTS. It doesn't matter the age. I've put down 18mo dogs w/out a pause. I dont give dogs or pups away at random anymore either, cuz the ppl who would take them would eventually become so afraid of them when they see their potential, & have no idea how to train or work them,i'd have to take them back.
I too have seen a lot of dogs that ppl call awesome that i personally would have put down because of their inferiority. To me they are of less value than used toilet paper. But in their owners eyes they're superdogs.
So breeding for crap sometimes has its uses cuz not everyone can handle a dog that lives to do a job.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Christopher Jones said:


> Extreme drive, nerve and health. All as important as the other. A dog with no drive wont work. I dog with bad health cant work and dog with bad nerves wont walk those healthy hips across the slippery floor to work.


Christopher thats as good as I have ever seen it put. Hard to argue with reality!!


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: All this is elementary rite? what are you as breeders goals I would also be interested to here how long you all have been involved with the breed before you have started breeding your dogs what makes you think you should be a keeper of your breed. "just wondering"
> 
> Goals change as you go along. At least they should. I have no idea how many GSD's I worked, but there has been a lot of them.
> 
> ...


Jeff I am glad to see Im not the only one who thinks this way....


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## Kara Fitzpatrick (Dec 2, 2009)

Ricardo Ashton said:


> The farmers test helps in the selection of pups to ascertain their level of nerve. Just pick up the pup by the scruff & hold in the air for about 20 seconds. A pup with strong stable nerves will accept the position he's in wihout a fuss( no yelping,limbs relaxed).
> Other pups with less nerve will yelp, become rigid, legs and or toes splayed out or act as though trying to walk away. Theres another test where the pup is held upside down as well.


can someone explain why this is? 
i hope thats not a stupid question... I just don't understand why. 

what if the puppy turns around and bites you in the face? :-o


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Kara, I have seen a lot of people test with this method. I have to assume that it is because the weaker dogs tend to nut up and get frantic, the solid nerved dogs don't even though it is an unnatural position. As far as getting bit in the face....just don't hold them close to your face would be my advice. :grin:


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I walked into a gas station once holding a 12 lb presa pup by his cheek to show a buddy who worked there the new pup. Then shifted to an ear, then a front paw, then a back leg, then the tail and back to the cheek, full circle..

A woman shopper in the store called the police on me for animal cruelty. 

I tried to explain to her that the dog was fine and was in no pain. It was a young pup, and if a young pup is uncomfortable or especially in pain that it will cry, whine, or try to get away....

the cop came in a couple minutes, I showed him what I did, and he told me that was a nice pup...

I will say that it is not always a nervy or weak pup that may not pass, a very dominant pup may get aggressive and try to bite you because he is not comfortable being manhandled like that, but those are rare, usually the test is a telling thing when the adults are looked at and compared.

The holding of different parts can also show the pain threshold of a pup...

Another farmer test is to throw a nice meaty bone in a litter of pups and see which one comes up with it after the fight dies down...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> I walked into a gas station once holding a 12 lb presa pup by his cheek to show a buddy who worked there the new pup. Then shifted to an ear, then a front paw, then a back leg, then the tail and back to the cheek, full circle..
> 
> A woman shopper in the store called the police on me for animal cruelty.
> 
> ...


forgot to add, that pup would almost fall asleep being held up by his face or ear...that was the important part of the post...


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> forgot to add, that pup would almost fall asleep being held up by his face or ear...that was the important part of the post...


Did it wake up when the fire trucks went by


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

When a pup falls asleep when you hold it up by it's face or ears it's called going catatonic. :-o


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Did it wake up when the fire trucks went by


the gas station WAS right next to a fire department.

bob it was a big fat loose skinned presa canario from gamebred/catch lines...

that dog at 18 months had his tongue hanging out and his tail wagging when an "agitator" was double flanking him and trying to be menacing... he did wake up though eventually...he was a littermate to the infamous "Bane" from the SF case...one of the most solid nerved presa I have seen..

That may be a hunting dog, bullbreed thing for the most part I think...

Bob you have to know some old farmer tests..share em...


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I always looked at grabbing the pup by the scruff as just showing a dog that is compliant to momma.
I don't mind a pup that wiggles around a bit either because some will just relax out of submission. It doesn't necessarily mean the pup is a good or bad one...to me.
Same thing with holding a pup on it's back. It can be a calm, relaxed dog or it just may be very submissive.
I DO like the toe web pinch for testing a pup but to many look at it as a test of the pup's pain tolerance. That has nothing to do with it. It's to show how the pup reacts to the pain. Is it forgiving? Does it want to fight you because of it? Does it just accept it with no reaction? 
I don't mind a pup that fights it but I like to see the pup get over it quickly. I don't care for the dead head that just accepts it OR the pup that holds a grudge. That's just what "I" like in a pup.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> I always looked at grabbing the pup by the scruff as just showing a dog that is compliant to momma.
> I don't mind a pup that wiggles around a bit either because some will just relax out of submission. It doesn't necessarily mean the pup is a good or bad one...to me.
> Same thing with holding a pup on it's back. It can be a calm, relaxed dog or it just may be very submissive.
> I DO like the toe web pinch for testing a pup but to many look at it as a test of the pup's pain tolerance. That has nothing to do with it. It's to show how the pup reacts to the pain. Is it forgiving? Does it want to fight you because of it? Does it just accept it with no reaction?
> I don't mind a pup that fights it but I like to see the pup get over it quickly. I don't care for the dead head that just accepts it OR the pup that holds a grudge. That's just what "I" like in a pup.


never tried these tests on herders really just the offbreed types. 

what if the pup does not feel the pain from the toe web pinch, I have seen that once or twice, and was afraid of injuring the pup, is that a dead head you're talking about? or do you mean once they feel it? just curious, never discussed this type of thing on here...


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Not necessarily a dead head. You have to look at the whole picture. Not just one particular test.
As far as herders go, I've used these tests on the small hunting terriers forever. They are as pain tolerant as you'll find but they just don't like being held or controlled. 
With a hunting terrier pup I'll also fold it in half to see if it can easily touch it's nose to it's butt (flexability for working in a tight spot). Also pinch it's front legs together at the elbows (nice narrow front) Doubtful if those have much use in the herding or bull breeds. :lol: 
I also put very high on the list a pup that has at least some natural retrieve. That shows "me" a pup is willing to work with a person. Doesn't mean it's going to be a soft pup as some would look at it. You still have to look a the whole pup. 
The two most people soft terriers I ever had (a Kerry and a Border) wouldn't willingly retrieve anything to save their lives but the Kerry was nationally ranked in AKC ob and the Border was the sweetest, most compliant dog I ever had. The ear pinch got the Kerry's attention and I gave up on teaching a retrieve to the Border.(?All force methods at that time in my life)
You have to look at the whole dog and not just one behavior.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Bob Scott said:


> With a hunting terrier pup I'll also fold it in half to see if it can easily touch it's nose to it's butt (flexability for working in a tight spot).


Is this forward, ie nose goes between back legs, or folding them backwards, ie head lays across the back?



Bob Scott said:


> Also pinch it's front legs together at the elbows (nice narrow front) Doubtful if those have much use in the herding or bull breeds.


Structurally I could see why you might want this in a dog going to ground, but this would definitely be a negative in most other breeds.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I feel like a fossil. I have never used any of these tests that are supposed to show this or that. Didn't matter how they reacted as the bottom line was always....could they get the job done or not. I feel like I have missed so much.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Is this forward, ie nose goes between back legs, or folding them backwards, ie head lays across the back?
> 
> 
> 
> Structurally I could see why you might want this in a dog going to ground, but this would definitely be a negative in most other breeds.



#1 Side ways, nose to butt.

#2 You'll never see one of the short legged JRTs doing earth work. The wide (often Queen Ann front) doesn't allow for the very tight conditions of a natural earth and they are often build very "thick". Some have the brass for it, few have the body.
Look at the structure of a cat. Very narrow. A good earth dog is similar in that many can get through most anyplace it can get it's head through.
I once judge the terrier classes at an AKC fun match. I based my judging on what makes a good terrier. Actually followed the standards. :grin: O 
I wasn't asked again. :lol: :lol: :lol: 
At a working terrier show the judges (often terrier men from UK hunt clubs) go over the good AND bad point of the dog being judged. Ya best be willing to hear the truth cause they talk to the crowd when doing this. :-o :twisted:


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