# Say what...?



## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I am not taking my answers over there just curious ...

Someone on another forum was upset that a 15 month old police prospect had a puppy moment (running, playing and ignoring the handler) doing an obedience routine when it was being done after an unexpected snowfall.

Decided all the work was to waste because the dog blew him off. Seems to me that is more a training and relationship thing and a young crazy dog.

Someone else agreed and said she has had dogs certify and be active patrol dogs by 12 months.

I am sitting here thinking 2-2.5 years for a GSD is what I would consider a mature dog. Some organizations will not certify until 18 months etc. 

Just kind of curious about the expectations, if the lines (Czech vs Belgian vs DDR vs West German) make a real difference or not in that regard as well. I certified my dog at 15 months but that was just obedience and detection (cadaver) and not a complete dual purpose test.


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## Lori Gallo (May 16, 2011)

I was watching this post hoping someone with more experience than I would reply. 15 months? I think it would make sense to let the dog have a knucklehead moment, boot scoot around, run off some steam away from the field and then settle in for some OB....Serious, high drive dogs at 15 months can have super focus and OB but hey, it was snow!

Seriously, what do you professional handlers think? I'm curious!


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## Jim Delbridge (Jan 27, 2010)

Just because a dog has the mechanics down pat doesn't mean it will be a reliable search partner out in the field until its head is screwed on right. Best example I know of is a HRD dog handler who certed a malinois at 8 months with NNDDA. The handler then came soon after that to a week with me. The handler is very sharp and we both agreed that while this dog was very good, it still had some maturing to do. At 18 months, this mal developed Jekyl&Hyde syndrome, turning on the handler and handler's spouse for no reason. The dog ended up being donated to a police department for apprehension. 
As is typical, I was dumbfounded that such a great prospect was lost UNTIL the handler showed me all the nasty scars the dog produced.
My current working dog started working at 18 months of age and is a stable personality such that he's easy going when not working and changes when scent is present. He is five years old now with multiple finds. My three year old may get to try for cert this summer or next fall. He has a great nose, is obsessed with scent, but still has puppy moments that cause me to prefer to work him on a longline most of the time. The puppy moments are fewer and fewer, but trust on my part will have to be earned by him. I've used him on searches to give the working dog a break and then follow-up with the working dog if I observe any scent behavior. I trust the younger one's nose, but just a few days ago on a search I was glad I had a glove on as he'd have burned my hand with the long-line when a rabbit took off past him.
Some handlers start seeing their dogs as biological robots rather than creatures with the maturity of a 6 to 10 y/o who happen to have a great nose. If those same handlers don't give those "robots" some off-time or R&R (when not working), the dog's attitude will begin to degrade over time. I have area seach dog handlers that tell me their dogs "just love to come find you." Most likely that's because I put in a lot of active play with the dog as a reward. If the dog tugs, I'm tugging with it all the way back to the truck regardless if that's a 100 yards or a mile. When the dog stops wanting to play then it's had enough reward and is satisfied.

Jim Delbridge


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

sounds like that guy has a real problem...

or there is alot more wrong wit the dog, or something he really really doesnt like, to decide that the dog was a wash at 15 months for blowing him off once in an ob session with new stimulus...

some dogs havent even started formal OB at that age yet...


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

If I worked a young dog in the snow for the first time...I would let it explore it, enjoy.. it then make it get back to work...If the dog freaked at the sight of snow I would give it a chance..but if it happened again I would wash it...

That is if lived in a place where it snowed...


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Well it took on a life of its own. Things changed a little bit after several posts and the dog is now washed out. 

The original post had the dog with 3 months of perfect performance before the test. Now it evolved to he didn't think it was the right dog in the first place. 

Mainly, I know some folks do put 12 month olds in use, I just never figured a GSD, particularly a male, was fully grown mentally until 2 to 3. 

Thanks.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

I would not be certifying a 12 month old gsd....in anything...for sure wait til he was at least two...what was the rush?


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## Jim Delbridge (Jan 27, 2010)

There's several philosophies out there:
1) Run through dogs till you end up with one that matches your expectations despite your skills as a handler/trainer. (fairly typical)

2) Test dogs at 12-18 months for all the right stuff before you start training (DOD method).

3) Test puppies to find one with all the right stuff then expose it to all the environments you can possibly think of while nurturing the "good behaviors" and negating the "bad responses." (The way I do it)

And all sorts of variations in between.

There are a lot of handlers/trainers out there that still employ the two-by-four method of training and I tend to see they get what they deserve.


If I had a dog that got nervous in snow. I'd put its food out in the snow every day till it ignored the snow for the food. My dogs get to come indoors as a reward or due to extremes in weather. They live the bulk of their lives in the heat, the cold, the wind, the rain, the snow, etc. They live on two acres of wild area such that they have no qualms with going through just about any vegetation.
Recently did a search where the dog took me to a unofficial dump and was climbing bare bed springs at a 45 degree angle to check for scent. The local deputy asked me if I'd trained him to do that. I responded, "not intentionally. He's hoping to find scent, so the springs are a means to an end."

Jim Delbridge


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

In this case it sounds like the dog was not nervous but having a field day and blowing him off.

The other thing is there is, to me, a big difference between a formal obedience routine and overall obedience. I have seen some dogs do perfect routines and be total jerks on the way to the car.

I am guessing maybe he did the drills on a field and not taking the dog everywhere and any circumstance.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

what exactly is the direction of this thread ???

- appropriate to comment on training done by someone else relayed thru a different list ?
imo, NO
- "canine maturity" ... when do dogs mature and does their country of birth make a difference ?
imo "maturity" can't be measured reliably no matter the bloodline or COI...i don't agree with the "late bloomer" theories and i go by physical development only
- when to wash or not ?
imo, purely subjective and a personal pref governed by your personal or company's training criteria
- how to condition or test canine reactions to snow ?
imo, play with em in snow
- when to certify ?
imo, depends on budget and/or performance, but mostly the latter


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Honestly my question was really more of a reality check.

A) Is a 15 month old GSD generally considered as mature enough for real police service work?
B) Is a one time obedience failure for a dog described as "perfect" until the test enough to completely wash a new candidate as long as it was not a sign of a deficiency in nerve strength, or working drives (ie, an obedience failure)

Now the other thread - no it started me thinking and it is going somewhere else with more being teased out of it.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re: "A) Is a 15 month old GSD generally considered as mature enough for real police service work?"
... doesn't it all boil down to whether the training has prepared the dog for street work or not ? so i don't see where there should be some set age rqmnt ??
- but still think it's as difficult to measure "maturity" in a dog as it is in a human ... if it can do the job required and enjoy doing it, why worry about age at all ?
...train it til it's ready and passes requirements whether the work is real or not....always a judgement call since you can't train on real bites until they are real, correct ??

B) Is a one time obedience failure for a dog described as "perfect" until the test enough to completely wash a new candidate as long as it was not a sign of a deficiency in nerve strength, or working drives (ie, an obedience failure)
...NO...and probably impossible to disagree based on the way you wrote this up


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

rick smith said:


> re: "A) Is a 15 month old GSD generally considered as mature enough for real police service work?"
> ... doesn't it all boil down to whether the training has prepared the dog for street work or not ? so i don't see where there should be some set age rqmnt ??
> - but still think it's as difficult to measure "maturity" in a dog as it is in a human ... if it can do the job required and enjoy doing it, why worry about age at all ?
> ...train it til it's ready and passes requirements whether the work is real or not....always a judgement call since you can't train on real bites until they are real, correct ??
> ...


 
Selection Testing is paramount! Be curious how this one was tested.... Dog gets nervy/iffy once, gets over it, no prob, happens every time with every new experience....hmmm


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

The dog was never nervy -- he was blowing off the handler and having fun in the snow. I would think it would be fair wash in a heartbeat if they saw a nerve issue or even a hint of one. But blowing off the handler one time? 

What actually happened we don't know, only what I reported.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

with a young dog ob maybe perfect at the regular field but go some place new or change the environment and expect curiosity..until the dog understands that he doesnt have a choice...upto the trainer to decide when the has to... is taught...


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Sounds like an opportunity for a trainer with a little more patience and a more realistic view of an immature young dog to buy a nice dog for cheap? A "washout" should go for a couple of hunded dollars at most? ;-)


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

I would think that at 15 months, there is probably a lack of maturity and still a bit of puppy silliness in a dog. Fresh, fluffy snow seems to bring out the goofiness in my dogs, regardless of age.

Dogs are as fallable as any creature, and I don't think I've been to a trial where I haven't heard someone say, "He never did that before". From tiny errors to giant wtf? events, even the best trained dogs have their moments. Handlers mess up, too. I got the worst case of the giggles in a rally trial once. Move on, keep training...


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

LOL, at our NAPWDA Certification seminar we thought that would make a GREAT T-shirt "He never did THAT before" ... there were some strange ones for sure.

There is one person who declares all the dogs produced from their kennel have genetic obedience and a dog with genetic obedience would not behave that way......

I really wanted a biddable dog within reason but I am thinking OTOH I want a dog who will blow me off if they are on source and they are right and I am wrongly pulling them off. I can already tell with Mr Beau who is so full of himself that he is hard to prompt a false indication. I can stand there and go checkitcheckitcheckit and stare at a false hide and he looks at me like I am crazy. I think a dog toooo interested in pleasing ME instead of getting his ball may be different than one too intent on pleasing me...Grim is that way and I really had to be much more careful with my own body language because I could talk him off a source. 

I don't know -- you get into these psychobabble discussions on genetic obedience and intelligent disobedience and all that.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

"Genetic Obedience" , really ? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> There is one person who declares all the dogs produced from their kennel have genetic obedience and a dog with genetic obedience would not behave that way......


 
Is genetic obedience equal to lacking the drive to do anything? Or does it cover dog is uncomfortable and sticks to his safety net in new situations...


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I don't have a clue. People talk about it as an attribute beyond basic biddability, pack drive, engagement etc. ....as some hardwired quality in old herding lines but I honestly do not know. ......... it is an intriguing concept but you get on GSD forums and the discussion gets so dominated by a few folks that you can't honestly have an intelligent discussion.

We know dogs ARE hardwired to engage with people and wolves are not, but it comes to a point like discussions on hunt drive vs prey drive. A lot of pontificating about doggie psychology.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> I don't have a clue. People talk about it as an attribute beyond basic biddability, pack drive, engagement etc. ....as some hardwired quality in old herding lines but I honestly do not know. ......... it is an intriguing concept but you get on GSD forums and the discussion gets so dominated by a few folks that you can't honestly have an intelligent discussion.
> 
> We know dogs ARE hardwired to engage with people and wolves are not, but it comes to a point like discussions on hunt drive vs prey drive. A lot of pontificating about doggie psychology.


The only person I wowuld trust to discuss old herding lines and working attribues is Ellen Nickelsberg. In the present day context more often than not the command compliant dogs are ones that are more likely than not, not that keen about livestock--or low drive. You're not fighting their drive or instinct. The dog with drive is less likely motivated to give up his drive for placement compliance. I can think of dogs with drive that were not the least bit handler soft/sensitve but were obedient and the only reward involved was a good dog or pat on the head. I"ve seen reference to the genetic obedient dog but no one has named the line. There was some reference to Asko von der Lutter and obedience but seems like I've also seen refernce to handler aggression as well. I never did sort this out. Given the distancess over which you work the herding dogs, it is an interesting concept where if it was there, you'd want to tap into it. 

T


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

It is all interesting but then........off to work dogs!


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Well, there's a 30 page thread on that other forum and I think if one is interested in genetic obedience, its worth a read especially for tracing the old lines to modern day lines and those that are trying to preserve that trait. The breeder from Canada seems to have the best handle on it. I will say that they are right in saying that it has nothing to do with handler sensitive or satisfying their prey drive. But as one guy said--hard to find these days because its not seen as necessary. 

T


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i'm way too lazy to wade thru a 30page thread on some other forum, but if there is a link that explains this i would sure study that ... i can't even imagine what the term means and how a dog would show it ... genetically 

sounds more like the old way of defining canine behavior ... man't best friend and defender of the flock and shepherd, etc etc 
- like the old BC herder guy i know who reads dogs by looking into their eyes 
- or the old time GSD founders describing the breed in very lofty, altruistic ways 

i do know every dog in the world could probably use better OB but it certainly doesn't seem to be something breeders can select for 
...if it was, you would read breeder web sites that had even more hype than that DP one i referred to in another thread

temperament CAN be bred ... lap warming "companion breeds" ... that temperament has certainly become genetic but of course has no OB connected, similar to canine aggression for man and animals 

but any OB implies clear, TWO way, inter species communication, and that would imply it has to be built not selected, so i can't see where it would fall into a "temperament" category imo


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I definitely think there is a certain amount of truth to it but then I have heard some claims that seem a bit exaggerated about the whole thing.

I am not sure, however, the dog needs "genetic obedience" to become a solid patrol dog, detection dog, or other working dog as has been stated/implied by some.

And yes, always with the old herding lines.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

The reason old herding lines are mentioned is because it was a selection criteria. I think if you read Ellen Nickelsberg articles about Manfred Heyne and how he worked his dogs and selected for his dogs, then you get it. The main complaint from BC herders regarding working other breeds the lack of biddability. Within BCs its also a trait selected for. Back in the day you didn't have e-collars and never would they consider external rewards. I think it has become easier to don an e-collar and appeal to prey drive than to select for the obedience. Heyne actually wrote a letter to Helmut Raiser regarding the need for genetic obedience instead of e-collars. For Heyne, if the dog didn't have the genetic obedience it was a washout. Never mind that it had the other traits. Since he didn't believe in compulsion in herding training, you need the obedience. In herding its what holds the other breeds back in training--except where you have a good GSD.

T


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

In a totally raw dog, what how does this genetic obedience manifest itself? Or is this something that can only be observed via exposure to a particular element or set of circumstances?


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