# Hard dogs and Dominance !



## Lalit Dukkipati (May 24, 2011)

Hello Everybody,
Maybe , this topic has been discussed before , and I may have missed it .

Wanted to know what the different forum member opinion about this .

German dog trainers use the term Fuhrigkeit . May be I mispelled the word 
I think the word literally means obedience or more accurately to be able to take directions . It may be based on trust on the handler . Some dogs I have seen are eager to listen to the handler with great focus . This makes the training easier .

There are other dogs that are independent and stubborn . Kind of like to do what they want to do . They need an appropriate correction to get them back into the path . 

Generally speaking , only as per my experience or perception , the higher the dominance , the lower the tractability . They are difficult to control . I may as well be wrong here as per my limited experience .

Does this mean , the dogs that have Fuhrigkeit or biddable ( focus on the owners because of that bond or trust ) are weaker to the dominant dogs ? I am writing this as I haven't seen enough dogs to come to have a general idea . 

I have seen some dogs( few) that are obedient to the handler and yet strong to handle pressure in a stressful situation . Dogs with very high drives are also difficult to control . sometimes .

I have met or talked to some handlers that biddable dogs are not so hard or strong as independent. dominant dogs . Are independence , dominance and stubborness the same according to different members ? 

Would appreciate if members take the time and effort to answer this question . 

Regards,
Lalit


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

My opinion, if the dog is more dominant than the handler you will have a less biddable the dog. As long as the handler is more dominant than the dog you won't have a problem no matter what the dog is.


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

I like a dominate dog, an independent stubborn harder dog as you say, but in my opinion it's not about being more dominate, as that will not work well with a truly dominate dog.... It's about having a mutual respect. Otherwise one can expect conflict when the goal is team. I love this question and look forward to the responses.


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

tracey delin said:


> I like a dominate dog, an independent stubborn harder dog as you say, but in my opinion it's not about being more dominate, as that will not work well with a truly dominate dog.... It's about having a mutual respect. Otherwise one can expect conflict when the goal is team. I love this question and look forward to the responses.


So if you tell your dominate independent dog to sit and he doesn't sit do you discuss with him why he doesn't want to sit today?


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Not even close, would you do that with any dog? Teaching / training / learning all comes from both positive and negative experiences, as a means of clarity in communication. Those negative experience are usually much stronger for these dogs but.... It's all about fairness and communication, respecting the type of dog and having respect from that dog. That is not the same as trying to dominate a dominate dog.


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

tracey delin said:


> Not even close, would you do that with any dog? Teaching / training / learning all comes from both positive and negative experiences, as a means of clarity in communication. Those negative experience are usually much stronger for these dogs but.... It's all about fairness and communication, respecting the type of dog and having respect from that dog. That is not the same as trying to dominate a dominate dog.


I believe in fairness and communication too. I think it is fair for the dog to do what I communicate it to do.


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## Alex Scott (Jun 16, 2013)

In my experience with a dominant dogs you may have to take a different approach to training depending on the dogs and methods you are a custom to. Dominant dogs can be easily controlled by adjusting the scope of your training method. I try to work with the dog in order to achieve results. Work with the dog, get the dog working with you.

I like dominant dogs because they usually better in protection work. All the dominant dogs I have experience have high work ethic. All have been ball junkies and want nothing more than to be busy so what I do is put them in a position to succeed. They want the ball, that fine but you need to do what I say to get. If I don't believe they dog will listen to a command because they are not focused, I don't give one, instead I regain the dogs focus and then give the command. to You need put the dog in a position to succeed by engineering a situation where the dog wants to listen. Hope that makes sense.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

jamie lind said:


> My opinion, if the dog is more dominant than the handler you will have a less biddable the dog. As long as the handler is more dominant than the dog you won't have a problem no matter what the dog is.


Jamie, there are some dogs out there that know they can take you out, being more dominant with these dogs is a mistake that people sometimes make, and it often brings them to the emergency room.

some dogs you simply cannot make them do certain things that they do not want to do. most of these dogs are fine as long as you work around those certain things smartly.

what is Dicks favorite saying, dont pick a fight with a dog that likes to fight, and I will add to that, especially if he is tougher than you.


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## Alex Scott (Jun 16, 2013)

Joby Becker said:


> Jamie, there are some dogs out there that know they can take you out, being more dominant with these dogs is a mistake that people sometimes make, and it often brings them to the emergency room.
> 
> some dogs you simply cannot make them do certain things that they do not want to do. most of these dogs are fine as long as you work around those certain things smartly.
> 
> what is Dicks favorite saying, dont pick a fight with a dog that likes to fight, and I will add to that, especially if he is tougher than you.


This post is dead on. You need to work with these dogs as appose to trying to make them work for you.


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## Lalit Dukkipati (May 24, 2011)

May be I should rephrase the questions -- 

Are biddable dogs weaker in character than dominant , stubborn dogs ?

Are Dominance , Independence, Stubbornness inter-related ? 

Are certain breeds like Rottweilers,let us presume ( old type - may be 30 years ago ) ,when they said they are "one man dogs" ( dogs that did not like anybody other than their family ) just plain unsocial or nervous ? 

I understand that or maybe ( my perception only,and could be wrong ) the knowledge of dog behavior was not as clear as now . Some opinions are that training evolved gradually over time and that the better modern trainers learned to fine tune their training methods . And that understanding dog behavior helped decoying techniques too .

Just wanted to know what's different people's take on this .

Hope, I did not make any strong or stupid statements to offend anyone inadvertently with my lack of knowledge . If I did , please accept my apologies in advance.

Regards,
Lalit








Lalit Dukkipati said:


> Hello Everybody,
> Maybe , this topic has been discussed before , and I may have missed it .
> 
> Wanted to know what the different forum member opinion about this .
> ...


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> Jamie, there are some dogs out there that know they can take you out, being more dominant with these dogs is a mistake that people sometimes make, and it often brings them to the emergency room.
> 
> some dogs you simply cannot make them do certain things that they do not want to do. most of these dogs are fine as long as you work around those certain things smartly.
> 
> what is Dicks favorite saying, dont pick a fight with a dog that likes to fight, and I will add to that, especially if he is tougher than you.



+1. There are some dogs if you fight them for dominance ... you are only teaching them to fight you...


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

I believe biddability and dominance are two different things. I think a dominant dog with moderate biddability appears less biddable than a less dominant one with identical biddability. Likewise, a submissive one with identical biddability appears more biddable than the others. I don't think a highly dominant dog with high biddability is any weaker than a highly dominant dog with moderate biddability, but he is much easier to train while being equally capable... The reality being that with two identical dogs where one is more biddable you will likely progress faster and go further in training with the biddable one. 

Similar to the relation of aggression and nerves... Moderate aggression and horrid nerves makes for a crazy aggressive looking dog... More aggressive looking than a dog with high aggression and steel nerves. Basically, the more dominance you have, the more biddability you should have to keep things in balance. I see biddability as a trait that facilitates the handling of dominant dogs, in the same way that stronger nerves facilitate training/owning/handling aggressive dogs


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

We have certainly seen plenty of strong, dominant dogs here. Most of them can be very biddable if you give them the chance to be. Positive reinforcement can go a long way with a dog that tries to kill you if you punish him.
Here's the thing, all dogs, (or any organism for that matter) no matter how strong and dominant will still work for what he considers to be a reinforcer. 
In my opinion, a strong dominant dog can still learn to be very engaged and biddable if he has a smart trainer.
I just started doing obedience with a young Arco X Arko combination pup who is about 11 months old now. We raised him from a baby here but all he has ever seen was detection work and bitework, I was always his decoy, never his handler. I was so impressed with the way the puppy hunts and bites that I decided to keep him for myself. So now I am doing the obedience with him. He is a very strong puppy in the bitework, already showing a very real desire to bite and hurt me when I stand in front of him, he is showing many of the same dominant traits that Arko had. But when I take the leash, he is happy to offer me very focused and fast obedience. He is a very biddable dog in OB and detection work, but a very strong dog in the bitework. And I would say overall he is headed down the path of being a dominant dog, yet will likely remain biddable due to the way he is being trained.


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> Jamie, there are some dogs out there that know they can take you out, being more dominant with these dogs is a mistake that people sometimes make, and it often brings them to the emergency room.
> 
> some dogs you simply cannot make them do certain things that they do not want to do. most of these dogs are fine as long as you work around those certain things smartly.
> 
> what is Dicks favorite saying, dont pick a fight with a dog that likes to fight, and I will add to that, especially if he is tougher than you.


Sure. But I think these are created not birthed that way.


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Lalit Dukkipati said:


> Are biddable dogs weaker in character than dominant , stubborn dogs ?



As its been said, I think dominate dogs can be very biddable if you adjust. If you have drive and some smarts in a dog... then it should be just a matter of you adjusting your training to fit the dog and get the most out of him/her. And as its also been said, today new training techniques are perfect for these dogs and a really good trainer can do wonders (not me lol).

I never used to believe in a stubborn dog, I hear this a lot in my breed. To me its a crutch mostly. I still think is 90% is the handler's approach and not the dog. But after dealing with dogs who can be more stubborn than others... well, I guess I still feel its a lot on the training approach (or lack of lol) but there has to be some genetic component to the dog and maybe "willful" is a better term...

My question back is when you are comparing biddable and dominance do you really mean soft vs hard? I guess I dont necessarily see the two as being exclusive.


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

Also positive reenforceing is dominating. If I give you the choice do what I say or I won't give you what you want. Its dominating. I find it strfange that the minute you used the word dominate some people assume right away your talking about dry humping something.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Lalit Dukkipati said:


> May be I should rephrase the questions --
> 
> Are biddable dogs weaker in character than dominant , stubborn dogs ?
> 
> ...


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## Lalit Dukkipati (May 24, 2011)

I meant that are biddable dogs soft in general , overall, and are dominant dogs hard overall .

As mike put it , you should know how to make changes in training using reinforcement as Joby put it earlier that you find ways around to train the dog , instead of fighting the dog all the time.

Looks like , one has to perfect it like an art of understanding dogs and train smart . Thank you everybody for responding to my questions.
Regards,
Lalit






tracey delin said:


> As its been said, I think dominate dogs can be very biddable if you adjust. If you have drive and some smarts in a dog... then it should be just a matter of you adjusting your training to fit the dog and get the most out of him/her. And as its also been said, today new training techniques are perfect for these dogs and a really good trainer can do wonders (not me lol).
> 
> I never used to believe in a stubborn dog, I hear this a lot in my breed. To me its a crutch mostly. I still think is 90% is the handler's approach and not the dog. But after dealing with dogs who can be more stubborn than others... well, I guess I still feel its a lot on the training approach (or lack of lol) but there has to be some genetic component to the dog and maybe "willful" is a better term...
> 
> My question back is when you are comparing biddable and dominance do you really mean soft vs hard? I guess I dont necessarily see the two as being exclusive.


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## Lalit Dukkipati (May 24, 2011)

Thank you Joby . for answering my questions . Really appreciate this .


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## ravi nambiar (Aug 29, 2012)

Lalit Dukkipati said:


> May be I should rephrase the questions --
> 
> Are biddable dogs weaker in character than dominant , stubborn dogs ?
> 
> ...


Dear Lalit,
1.Biddable dogs

Biddable dogs as you described are "highly Focussed" , handler submissive but not "weak" in character. in this connection please see videos of [email protected] to get a fair picture of what i have just said.
Dominant dogs are always going to be a struggle between the owner and the dog. some people confuse the terms "Dominant/Stubborn/Independent minded" with the term "Hardness"
a Hard dog is one that is resilient through stress, is handler forgiving for training mistakes.can bounce back with no adverse experiences from an unpleasant situation.
many of us actually want hard dogs as they are easier to train and quite stable,uninfluenced by environmental distractions... but end up with dominant dogs instead because of a degree of confusion over these two terms "Dominant" and "Hardness" /"Handler Biddable". believe me, it is always best to go in for a handler biddable dog because ultimately both handler and dog have to work together as one, especially in a dangerous combat situation where the factor of handler biddable is of utmost importance.
2. Rottweilers
Socialise, Socialise and Socialise is the answer to fixing the problem of Rottie aggression apart from screening out those rotties who are genetically predisposed to aggression..... i hope that answers the query.
3.Protection work

decoy is the trainer in protection work. handler is not the trainer of the dog in protection work. the endeavour here is to keep the dog focussed completely only on the decoy... period. thus the Decoy is the BOSS and the handler' srole is to allow full freedom to the dog while working in accordance with the directions of the Decoy.
regards,
Ravi


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

The term hardness refers to the dog that is very strong in the pursuit and bite and, particularly, responds to overt aggression on the part of the adversary with even more aggression and drive. Hurt the hard dog and he will come back to hurt you more rather than disengage. Hardness is in a general sense the opposite of shyness in the protection work. In some contexts the hard dog can tend to insensitivity to handler correction or even evolve into handler aggression. Usually the dog very hard in fighting the helper is also less sensitive to physical correction, and if not brought along with care can become handler aggressive. Although positive only training, denying the need for vigorous physical correction, has become quite fashionable in certain circles, hardness as an aspect of aggression is a necessary aspect of police dog breeding and training, and sometimes a hard and aggressive dog requires a hard and aggressive edge in the boss to establish a useful working relationship. This is usually minimal when an experienced, competent trainer begins with the pup or young dog, but the older dog who has been allowed to discover that most people will back down will from time to time require more severity. This requires great care, for losing a confrontation with a dog can produce serious injury to the man and an even greater training problem.
For this reason, with very hard dogs it is important to introduce the out early and with emphasis on the concept that the best way to the next bite is the quick out and intense guard. A dog with extreme hardness can be very difficult to force to release and once the dog becomes habitually disobedient to a release command the quick, clean, reliable out can be very difficult to achieve. The guys hanging around at the club may be impressed by the dogged refusal to release, but judges in a trial or court of law are much less likely to be understanding. I personally tend to like most hard dogs, but that may be a flaw in my character rather than a rational response, for the hard dog, not brought up carefully, can be the difficult dog. In a world where many dogs are trained and then sold to military or police departments, the potential down side is that a really hard dog assigned to the handler not quite psychologically tough enough to deal with it may become a liability; sometimes it is wise to be careful of what you wish for. Military dogs for instance may have several handlers in a carrier, and it is unlikely that all of them will be very experienced and dominant.


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## patricia powers (Nov 14, 2010)

i have a dog--10 yrs old now--that i idore & who adores me, but as a very young dog, he decided that "platz" was the ultimate submission & was unwilling to go that far. he will do anything else i ask of him, but there is no platz. when i took him to training as a youngster, there were a couple of smartass men in the group who said: "i can make that dog platz." yeah right. they tried everything they could think of.....including laying on top of the dog. no platz. this is a very proud, hard & dominant male, yet very biddable and easy to handle. i gave up early on the notion of trying to do any schh with him because i was unwilling to do what it would take to make him platz. i can take him anywhere and he is easily controlled. i used to joke that i could walk him on a kite string  there is no platz. never has been & never will be. we have mutual respect for each other & that is more important to me. pjp


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

patricia powers said:


> i have a dog--10 yrs old now--that i idore & who adores me, but as a very young dog, he decided that "platz" was the ultimate submission & was unwilling to go that far. he will do anything else i ask of him, but there is no platz. when i took him to training as a youngster, there were a couple of smartass men in the group who said: "i can make that dog platz." yeah right. they tried everything they could think of.....including laying on top of the dog. no platz. this is a very proud, hard & dominant male, yet very biddable and easy to handle. i gave up early on the notion of trying to do any schh with him because i was unwilling to do what it would take to make him platz. i can take him anywhere and he is easily controlled. i used to joke that i could walk him on a kite string  there is no platz. never has been & never will be. we have mutual respect for each other & that is more important to me. pjp


A very good example of the kind of dog that may need to be trained through the use of positive reinforcement. If i wanted to teach him to down, 

down happily in few days if that was the only behavior that got him food or .


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## patricia powers (Nov 14, 2010)

thanks, mike, but i did try food. infact, that was the very first thing i did try. i believe this dog would prefer to starve than submit. i can respect him for that; not a whole lot different than myself  if i were really in to schh/ipo it would have been a big deal, but i enjoy him for what he is & find satisfaction in that. pjp


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

What kind of dog is it? Pedigree? Video?


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## Peter Cho (Apr 21, 2010)

No correlation between biddable and dominance. 
Good trainers MAKE dominant dogs biddable (still happy).
That is the skill.
If all it took was brute force, many would have good OB and powerful protection.

I will say that the best trainers use conflict to amplify dominance on helper and then reduce conflict before the OUT to gain control and situationally create great OB. But to be sure, during the OB, the dog is being pressurized. This is training!
Many call it command amplifier but is is much more complex.

In the end, all the dogs, unless it has BAD nerves, can be made to have beautiful OB. Certainly club level. 

In the end, you just have to shake the coke bottle and let the dog explode. You will get dominant .....super pissed off behaviour.

Ps. If you use the sleeve as a toy, and all he is doing is bark for the sleeve, this dominance issue is a mute point. Even then with no dominance, do you think they will have good OB? 

I think it is what the trainers demand and expect.


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## patricia powers (Nov 14, 2010)

this is my eddy:
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=388579-elias-vom-alyeska

pjp


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Ravi, please don't forget your intro here:

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f20/

Thank you.



And back to the thread.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

patricia powers said:


> thanks, mike, but i did try food. infact, that was the very first thing i did try. i believe this dog would prefer to starve than submit. i can respect him for that; not a whole lot different than myself  if i were really in to schh/ipo it would have been a big deal, but i enjoy him for what he is & find satisfaction in that. pjp


I don't think you understand what I meant. I don't mean try to lure him or bribe him with food. I mean starve his ass for a week, 2 weeks, 3 weeks if necessary. The nice thing about a dog is he will lie down before he starves to death. When he does, click and feed him a little. I have never in my life met a dog that wouldn't lie down. In fact, my bet is that where ever your dog is right at this moment there is a good chance that he is lying down now. Dogs are lazy, they lie down a lot, all you need to do is capture that and reinforce it. 
If you dont water him for three days, run him for a couple miles in the heat of the day,then walk him over to a shade tree and wait, he will lie down on his own, when he does, give him a little water. repeat several times. 
Or starve him for a few days and put him in a wire crate in your living room at night while you are watching TV. After a few hours of nothing going on, he will lie down in his crate I promise, when he does, click and feed him. Over time he will begin to offer this more and more if it is the only way for him to eat and drink. It is not about being dominant or submissive, it is about survival, and he want to survive. Not sure if it matters to you, it sounds like it doesn't, but I could teach him to lie down on command in a few weeks without even putting a leash on him, I guarantee it.


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## Tony Hahn (May 28, 2011)

I started to type out the same thing Mike did, but decided it would come across as too cocky or arrogant coming from someone you have no knowledge of or respect for, so I deleted it. I'm glad he posted the info. 

It's not always necessary to go to such extremes, and in fact it seldom is. Mikes point is right on the mark though- the dog can be taught the behavior without using force. 

Sounds like you are not willing to put any more effort into it and are happy with the situation as is. Your dog and your choice. I'm not interested in changing your mind, but I do think it's beneficial to yourself or anyone who happens across the thread to clearly understand that the dog can learn.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Tony Hahn said:


> I started to type out the same thing Mike did, but decided it would come across as too cocky or arrogant coming from someone you have no knowledge of or respect for, so I deleted it. I'm glad he posted the info.
> 
> It's not always necessary to go to such extremes, and in fact it seldom is. Mikes point is right on the mark though- the dog can be taught the behavior without using force.
> 
> Sounds like you are not willing to put any more effort into it and are happy with the situation as is. Your dog and your choice. I'm not interested in changing your mind, but I do think it's beneficial to yourself or anyone who happens across the thread to clearly understand that the dog can learn.


I agree a thousand percent that Mike's point is well-made, and also that "It's not always necessary to go to such extremes, and in fact it seldom is."

Also that "I do think it's beneficial to yourself or anyone who happens across the thread to clearly understand that the dog can learn."

Balking at a down outside is common, and the more open or the more distant from the home-field-advantage, so to speak, the more common. JMO! I don't choose to agree with the dog about not complying, but I choose not to do battle over what I think is usually a vulnerability thing much more than a dominance thing. 

I do this slowly and gradually. For example, I start indoors, zero distractions, with focus exercises. I don't even move to the porch or garage until we have great engagement and a solid down indoors, just me and the dog, no one else and no distractions.


ETA: JMO, of course.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

In raising and working dogs in one of my breeds, I have thought about Lalit's question a lot. I think Ravi's description of "hardness" is a good one. The issue for me is when the dog is in the height of drive/stimulation, then what do you have. It can be different from when the dog is not in peak drive/stimulation. That's certainly been the case with my current bouv. I wouldn't call her as dominant as I would independent. She's in it for herself. Marker training made her as a trial dog. I'm currently raising two dogs and at this age, the weaker of the two is the one that works like a remote controlled car. Compared to the male, she is not as invested in the work and he has the fight drive. He's more independent and confident. Outside the work, she's more a dominant wannabe, he's extremely comfortable with where he is in the pack. As a young puppy, corrected in peak drive, and I saw reactive aggression. Marker trained around that and haven't seen it since. Of course along the way he grumbled with nails or grooming in certain places, but he got over that. His breeder muzzles the brothers and sires for certain things but I can exude a level of leadership, she can't. I'd say outside the work, he's more handler responsive genetically than the girls. With someone else, he would have probably been labeled dominant with a tendency toward aggression. For me he is completely pliable. It will be interesting to see how they mature. With the male, I've probably gotten out of him what others wouldn't because of the imprinting and marker training. Done wrong he is a dog that could have had aggression issues along the way of development and at almost age 2, he's not near done yet. Ultimately, I think he will be the better dog for what I want even if she will be more of the point dog on the trial field.

I think the high drive dog with hardness, fight, yet genetic biddability is possible but more often its been less biddability and I have to train smart to deal with the independence. 

T


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Out think the dog be it dominant or submissive. Train either one right out of the gate by trying to power it into position will only create problems. Crush one and get crushed by the other. 
One of my dogs is a strong minded but very clear headed dog. He wont take any pressure off of anyone he doesn't know VERY well. 
The other is the most handler soft dog and most submissive dog I've ever owned. He still wount take pressure off of anyone he doesn't know. He's less clear headed then the other one and has lower threshold for pressure from anyone but family.
A hard, dominant dog that has a clear head can be easiest to train IF you use your head instead of your hand. 
I've also commented before about leadership. You can go through the mechanics of training all day long but the dog has to be willing to follow along with your ideas. Many can force a dog to obey but that hard, dominant dog will be sitting back and waiting for his chance to dethrone you.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i must admit i was surprised to hear of a working dog who won't platz on a forum like this

i guess it just goes to show there are some common problems that exist for all dog owners

aside from the won't shut up, barking 22/7, the "won't lay down cause it's too dominant" and "won't work for food and has no food drive" are the most common imagined problems i get besides biting off command 

dominance might be mostly genetic but if you want to make a strong dog dominant, just keep forcing em to do stuff when they supposedly "give you the finger".... also works to some degree on weak dogs if you let them run the railroad and "manage the problems" .... jmo of course


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Out think the dog be it dominant or submissive. Train either one right out of the gate by trying to power it into position will only create problems. Crush one and get crushed by the other.
> One of my dogs is a strong minded but very clear headed dog. He wont take any pressure off of anyone he doesn't know VERY well.
> The other is the most handler soft dog and most submissive dog I've ever owned. He still wount take pressure off of anyone he doesn't know. He's less clear headed then the other one and has lower threshold for pressure from anyone but family.
> A hard, dominant dog that has a clear head can be easiest to train IF you use your head instead of your hand.
> I've also commented before about leadership. You can go through the mechanics of training all day long but the dog has to be willing to follow along with your ideas. Many can force a dog to obey but that hard, dominant dog will be sitting back and waiting for his chance to dethrone you.


Thunder is that balance I'm looking for. Did a lot of comparing him to Khira and one of the differences is that he isn't in it for himself. He's not the least bit dependent either. He's the type of dog you can put to task and he won't need his handler there to back him up. He will do what you train him to do. He doesn't fear you. He respects you. Earlier on someone was watching him in one of his frustrated moments barking at me and she asked me why wasn't I worried about getting bit. My response was that he was clear as a bell and I could read him. He draws his line clearly. I used to swear he could stare a hole right through me and definitely thought in terms of not picking a fight with a fight dog, early on in our relationship. I could stand my ground and get out of him what I wanted, yet not engage him in a fight. Again, this a marker trained dog and that's the ideal way to work him. It took awhile, but later, it really didn't matter what I did. We became buds and he decided part of his job was to watch over me and back me up.

T


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

"Earlier on someone was watching him in one of his frustrated moments barking at me and she asked me why wasn't I worried about getting bit. My response was that he was clear as a bell and I could read him".


"She" could never understand the difference between a dog that could show aggression and remain clear headed as opposed to an unstable, nasty dog that just wanted to bite just because it was never controlled. :grin: :wink:


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

mike suttle said:


> We have certainly seen plenty of strong, dominant dogs here. Most of them can be very biddable if you give them the chance to be. Positive reinforcement can go a long way with a dog that tries to kill you if you punish him.
> Here's the thing, all dogs, (or any organism for that matter) no matter how strong and dominant will still work for what he considers to be a reinforcer.
> In my opinion, a strong dominant dog can still learn to be very engaged and biddable if he has a smart trainer.
> I just started doing obedience with a young Arco X Arko combination pup who is about 11 months old now. We raised him from a baby here but all he has ever seen was detection work and bitework, I was always his decoy, never his handler. I was so impressed with the way the puppy hunts and bites that I decided to keep him for myself. So now I am doing the obedience with him. He is a very strong puppy in the bitework, already showing a very real desire to bite and hurt me when I stand in front of him, he is showing many of the same dominant traits that Arko had. But when I take the leash, he is happy to offer me very focused and fast obedience. He is a very biddable dog in OB and detection work, but a very strong dog in the bitework. And I would say overall he is headed down the path of being a dominant dog, yet will likely remain biddable due to the way he is being trained.


I agree with this completely.

Assuming one gets the pup at 7-8 weeks old, how on earth can he show dominance towards the handler? Dominance towards other dogs, other people, etc. is one thing but the dog can still be biddable towards its handler.

I think the will to fight in protection work is mostly genetic. The dominance that might occur towards other dogs or people can be controlled so should not ever be a problem.

Dominance towards a handler in my mind would be very hard to counteract once it has been established. 

The only way to create a handler-dominant dog is for the handler to take a lower stand. It often happens and can escalate until the dog has to be pts. Saw it happen with a Berner Sennenhund. We warned the owner but she just laughed until one day she wanted to "play" with him.

Dominance towards the handler does not mean that the dog would necessarily be good in protection work. Here, the dog is just being a dog - using its natural instincts.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Dominance towards the handler often means nothing more then the dog has been allowed to get away with it. Many, many pets are natorious for this simply because the owner lets it happen. It has nothing to do with a true dominant dog.


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> Dominance towards the handler often means nothing more then the dog has been allowed to get away with it. Many, many pets are natorious for this simply because the owner lets it happen. It has nothing to do with a true dominant dog.


This i agree with. Then again I've only bought puppies never an adult dog. And I can see how that could change things a bit.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Scott 
"Dominance towards the handler often means nothing more then the dog has been allowed to get away with it. Many, many pets are natorious for this simply because the owner lets it happen. It has nothing to do with a true dominant dog."

per Jamie : "This i agree with. Then again I've only bought puppies never an adult dog. And I can see how that could change things a bit."

obviously i also agree ... see my post on licking


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I do think there are some "dominant" dogs and it really doesn't have much to do with the handler. The dogs are just dominant. Some of the Selena/Dick dogs described here come to mind. I think they require a special handler with a very special skill set to manage them well. But other than those type of dogs, its just typical establish leadership type stuff. Of course instinct testing a dog last week, I dealt with the first case of reactive aggression. It wouldn't hurt for me to have a pair of hidden leg sleeves to add to my herding gear. Me and working line aussies are batting a thousand.

T


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I think that I agree with Michael Ellis on the issue of dominance.

http://youtu.be/hanG2YGYzZg?t=3m37s

Most dogs that get labeld as "Dominant Dogs" are not truly dominant dogs, but what Michael referes to as "Socially Upwardly Mobile Opportunists".

I think here is a sliding scale of behaviors in dogs that can be looked at in terms of dominance, but the term "Dominant Dog" is an overused term that is used to describe tons of dogs that ARE NOT dominant dogs.

There is little question that there are truly dominant dogs out there, however they are rare in frequency in my opinion.

When I think of the term DOMINANT DOG I think of a fukking seriously rank Dominant Dog, that thinks he owns the world. These dogs are pretty rare, most people do not come accross these dogs often at all.

If you have a truly Dominant Dog, there will be very little confusion on the subject once you try to make him do something he does not want to do, because he will nont only refuse but will most likely scare the crap out of you, and most likely give you a free trip to the hospital for your efforts, unless you are skilled in dealing with strong dogs trying to attack you forcibly..

The term "dominance", I think can be used in relation to dogs in general, as a descriptor of behavior, actions, whatever, with some sort of sliding scale of meaning.., but would also say that it is true that very few dogs that might show what everyone refers to as dominance, are actually Dominant Dogs, they are fairly rare in the big scope of things.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I consider the truly dominant dog like 1% as in bikers. Many, many wannabees but it's that 1% at the top of the heap.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> I consider the truly dominant dog like 1% as in bikers. Many, many wannabees but it's that 1% at the top of the heap.


+1

and not the 1% bikers that you see on the reality TV shows, or Sons of Anarchy either... ...


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Bob Scott said:


> I consider the truly dominant dog like 1% as in bikers. Many, many wannabees but it's that 1% at the top of the heap.


I agree... That reminded me of an analogy i use with people of picking a fight at a bar. The guy that you tap on the shoulder and say "wtf is you problem" who gets up and postures and makes a lot of noise isn't the dangerous one... It's the guy who doesn't even look at you, just keeps drinking his drink and says "do what you gotta do" and chuckles... Now that guy is gonna clean your clock.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

or the guy that is comfortable in his home bar and with the employees there, and smashes your face in without a word because he went to the bar hoping for someone to give him an excuse to do so.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> or the guy that is comfortable in his home bar and with the employees there, and smashes your face in without a word because he went to the bar hoping for someone to give him an excuse to do so.


is that "fight drive"?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

could be, might just be antisocial behavior though too, or social aggression..


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Hunter Allred said:


> is that "fight drive"?



That's stupidity on a high level and I don't think it has a strong connection to dominance. Just anger and stupidity.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> That's stupidity on a high level and I don't think it has a strong connection to dominance. Just anger and stupidity.


that is what the 1% bikers would do though.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> that is what the 1% bikers would do though.



Yep! Angry and stupid! 
I was more like making a numerical comparison. Dogs can be naturally angry but not stupid. That comes from handlers. :grin: :wink:


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> Yep! Angry and stupid!
> I was more like making a numerical comparison. Dogs can be naturally angry but not stupid. That comes from handlers. :grin: :wink:


I got you bob...I understood...


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