# some vid



## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Taken me a while to get the courage to post these, but I know before I got her I asked a lot here about when you know if the retrieve drive and hunt drive and such will be good. It has been really interesting to see it develop. She is just under 6 months of age now.

I have not been working on any air scent profiles or detection type stuff with her, just tracking until winter. In the winter I will start some air scent avalanche related training. 

That said, I have been playing fetch some, and watching her toy and retrieve drive build. Every couple of weeks I would make the toy fall where she couldn't see it and watch her have to hunt a bit for it. I don't mind that it is prey driven at this age. I do like her intensity, independence, and range for her age. She doesn't give up or look to me, of course I have been trying to keep things age appropriate.

Probably nothing special for a malinois, but I think I am confident now that she will dig search work and be good at it as an adult. 

Mostly though I just play fetch in longer grass and let her see where it falls for exercise. I choose the longer grass to play in because if she can see the toy as she runs to it she skids in super fast, and I figure her joints will have plenty of pounding as she grows.

4.5 months:
http://s860.photobucket.com/albums/ab166/pikamal/?action=view&current=MOV04810.mp4

5.5 months. This one I was just going to video a retrieve, but the terrain was such she didn't see where it landed, so she had to find it.
http://s860.photobucket.com/albums/ab166/pikamal/?action=view&current=MOV04879.mp4

Almost 6 months. I just held her back and screened her, she just knew the general direction. I had just let her go a second before the vid starts. The weeds and vetch are over her head in most places. It is far away, but you can see her bouncing in and out of it and ranging. 
http://s860.photobucket.com/albums/ab166/pikamal/?action=view&current=MOV04888.mp4


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

nice vids....nice pup, fast little bugger


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Nice Jen, now tell me did you have like 10 of those little squeak toys out there, I swear I heard her stepping on them J/J. What do you do if she gives up and can't find it, I'm curious?


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

thats a nice little dog.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

E for effort and E for concentration! That's gonna be one fine dog!
I especially enjoyed the first video where you tossed the kong then turned her away a couple of times. You'd be amazed at how many dogs will get confused (fail) with that simple turn around.
E for orientation!!!


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

I think she is FANTASTIC for her age, and i am sorry that you did have the courage to post here, thats not something that is good for a form , people scared to post videos because there dog may NOT BE GOOD ENOUGH , we all have different goals, 
I think she is really good, Vandals retreives are NOWHERE near this, but its not something i work on either, differnt goals here, 
keep it up , she will be fantastic


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Timothy Stacy said:


> What do you do if she gives up and can't find it, I'm curious?


Stake her out for the bears and cougars I guess. Lucky for her that hasn't happened yet.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Tammy St. Louis said:


> , and i am sorry that you did have the courage to post here, thats not something that is good for a form , people scared to post videos because there dog may NOT BE GOOD ENOUGH , we all have different goals,


Don't worry about me Tammy. I have actually posted quite a few vids on WDF over the past few years. I have big girl pants I put on occasionally to participate :grin:

It is not a matter of me not thinking she is good enough, I just have no previous malinois experience, don't train with any, or see any, so am just never sure what is normal, bad, or good, especially at different stages of development.

I have learned a great deal from WDF, and met some great people. Heck, I got this pup because of this forum, so I like the place. Sure things can take a sh** turn every now and again...sometimes warrented, sometimes not...but it is not boring.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Nice job. I like what you are doing with her. She certainly seems to enjoy it.


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## Shane Woodlief (Sep 9, 2009)

She is a very very nice dog and I think she is going to have a lot of good years with you.

Congrats and good luck with her.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Taken me a while to get the courage to post these, but I know before I got her I asked a lot here about when you know if the retrieve drive and hunt drive and such will be good.

First off, PUSSY ! ! ! ! HA HA

Then, do you know if those drives are good or not yet ? 

Have you pushed it to see if she will quit ?


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Nice, Jenn. Like Daddy, like daughter. :grin:


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Then, do you know if those drives are good or not yet ?
> 
> Have you pushed it to see if she will quit ?


I think that they look good for her age. Though by posting I am open to finding out that all malinois look like that at her age and she is only normal. In any case, as I mentioned in the first post, I am pretty confident I can turn what I have now into a product I want in the future. Barring me effing anything up to badly!

I have not pushed her until she quits yet. It is my habit to train for success and have the dog think that faluire is not an option for her. I like to progressively make things more difficult. Yes there will be times to push her past her limits to find out exactly what they are, but those times are not now, for me personally.

Do you run dogs 4, 5, 6 months off a sleeve, just to see when they will quit? I bet you get em close now and again though, just to see, and then make them successful.

I am not setting up searches for her to find a kong, that will not be her purpose in life. It is just playing fetch for now, and I try to see her drives maturing through that game every now and again.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Timothy Stacy said:


> What do you do if she gives up and can't find it, I'm curious?


Okay, seriously, there is lots of "it depends" here for me and I can get realy wordy in my posts and still not end up saying what I mean. Stuff about more than just finding the ball will leak in here. I has not been an issue I have delt with with Pika yet, but it will be at some point I am sure. 

If the dog searches for a while, gets frustrated, and ends up looking at me for direction, the first thing I would try is to do absolutely nothing. My hope is the dog figures "okay, she is of no help/use, I better keep looking on my own".

There was a time if the dog looked at me (not Pika) I would provide some direction, maybe move a few quick steps in the direction I wanted the dog to move in (not to the object of course), this will often start the dog searching again. This can be an option if the dog is not looking in the right area, and you want to get the dog downwind so they may make the find. That said, with some dogs I have noticed that they can get reliant on you to provide direction when the going gets tough, and their looking at you is reinforced with direction and support and it can increase that behavior if one is not careful.

If the dog is not searching in the right spot, and I can read the dog is nearing the end of its attention span, I might without giving any verbal direction move my position relitive to the dog to see if it moves the dog into the proper search area. This is still like giving the dog some direction, but the difference is I do it while the dog is still actively searching, before the dog would give up and look to me. 

Eventually patterning the dog becomes important because you as a human sometimes want to put the dog in specific places and so on, but I feel like direction and patterning should not be worked on as often or as early as independent searching.

In some of our winter search progressions, when we are working on milestone burial depths with articles, or some new challenge with weather or distractions, or just working a very young dog, we will set up an easy "bailout" find, just outside the search area (the dog doesn't know what is and is not the search area) beforehand. So then if the dog is not having any luck, maybe we pushed to hard to fast, maybe the dog is young and we want it to end with success, we can pattern the dog downwind of the "bailout" article and finish with it. With older more seasoned dogs, every search doesn't have to end with success.

If we are back to puppies and the dog just decides "oh look a butterfly" or "this blade of grass is more fun" I would ask myself if I am asking too much from a dog that doesn't have that kind of attention span yet, or if the dog doesn't have the interest/drive. I would probably go get the toy myself, put the dog on lead saying nothing, walk home and put the dog away and think about what I will set up next time so the dog will be successful.

For puppies, I would like to start every search session with something the dog has already been successful with, and end every session with something that pushes the boundries of the time before. If we are unsuccessful I would back up a few steps to back where we had success and try to figure out why/where we failed. There are many factors that could be responsible, and knowing what they are would be important in how I would proceed the next time.

What are your strategies?

Some search stuff leaked in here more than just the dog fetching.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

First i'd like to say it's about time I got a serious answer  I don't have any strategies which is why I asked you. I have Not done much search stuff so for now it's been relatively easy for vitor. Like you said I want him to have success and understand what I want before I make it difficult. I guess I don't know his limitations and I'm positive he has not done as much prep work as your pup at this age so I'm a little hesitant about the difficulty level. So I wondered what you'd do if I came across the problem as I know it can happen but it hasn't yet but again it's been fairly easy


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: 
Do you run dogs 4, 5, 6 months off a sleeve, just to see when they will quit? I bet you get em close now and again though, just to see, and then make them successful.

No. It is not the same thing.

Probably the best "search" dog ever on the planet was a dog named sparky that was super annoying about bringing shit and trying to get you to throw it for him. He didn't care that a basketball game was going, or a wiffleball game was going, he just wanted you to throw shit for him.

We NEVER threw it the right way after he started bugging us. We made it rediculously hard, and after we would throw the ball or whatever, we would all scream so that he couldn't hear where it landed.

THAT is hunt drive. Sparky never failed to bring you back the ball. 

What you are doing is building, just like bitework. all success, never really learning how to figure it out. If the dog really wants it, really has hunt drive, the dog is going to figure it out.


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## David Feliciano (Oct 31, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> Probably the best "search" dog ever on the planet was a dog named sparky that was super annoying about bringing shit and trying to get you to throw it for him. He didn't care that a basketball game was going, or a wiffleball game was going, he just wanted you to throw shit for him.
> ...


WOW, you helped train the best "search" dog on the planet? You just described some pretty hardcore training methods too. Do you do detection seminars???

How much do they cost? The low low price of $200 per weekend???


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Ocd ocd ocd ocd ocd ocd ocd ocd ocd ocd ocd ocd ocd


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Nice!
She's very driven and doesn't give up!


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## David Feliciano (Oct 31, 2008)

Yes Jennifer, your pup looks great. Don't let the naysaying of some ****wit who has accomplished **** all get you down or convince you to try any bad training. There is no need to test your puppy to the point of failure. You evaluate a puppy based on potential and test mature dogs


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## Mike Di Rago (Jan 9, 2009)

Jen,
She seems intense and motivated. She will be easy to read I think because of these two qualities.
Also nice to see you were not constantly talking! Really nice pup. Really good work for you!
Mike


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote:
> Do you run dogs 4, 5, 6 months off a sleeve, just to see when they will quit? I bet you get em close now and again though, just to see, and then make them successful.
> 
> No. It is not the same thing.
> ...


Guess I am just building right now then. :mrgreen: 

We have all seen those fetch crazy hunters. Lots of Sparky's out there, bet everyone on the site could tell a story about one. It was a female toller in my town with no training that has the prize in my mind. She would roam free all day harrassing anyone she could find to throw whatever rock, stick anything they would find and she always came came back with the right one and would do it until she was vomitting from exaustion, then she would go home running beside a bike with some huge rock in her mouth hoping to continue the game at home. The people throwing it would try to deek her out, pretend to throw it one way, and throw it another and so on. 

BUT, hide a rock with my scent on it, take her out in the morning and she didn't know it was thrown, tell her to find it, and she would not. She would grab something to bring to you and get you to throw it so she could find it.

So...of course I am building. My end goal is not to have a dog that hunting for a thrown object is the best game ever. I have seen fetch crazy dogs that made so so search dogs even. I have seen dogs that never really played fetch be good search dogs, so a lot can be said for building towards your goal. 

I am sure that there are dogs that naturally LOVE to bite, have great bite drive or whatever people want to call it, but you still want to mold/teach it towards a certain end goal, I mean they don't just walk in to a Ring III with no building. Just like you might not take Sparky to an avalanche. 

Don't worry Jeff, she will have plenty to figure out and challenge her in life, and she will have to work for lots and lots. I am not against playing Sparky games with her at all, as long as my work side of things is progressing how I would like. Right now I am not drinking beer on a deck and throwing the toy where ever and chatting with friends until she brings it back. BUT, in the fall at my cottage....that is exactly what I might be doing. That is what we do with all the dogs there.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I am not saying that she sucks, I am pushing YOU, to see what the dog you have in front of you is. She is doing a real good job for you. Soooo,

What are the chances that you COULD fake her out ?

What is the next step you have in mind to "build" her further ?

Ring has very little to do with hunting in the weeds. LOL 

Don't worry, I won't let felatio ruin your thread.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> *I am not saying that she sucks, I am pushing YOU, to see what the dog you have in front of you is. She is doing a real good job for you. Soooo,*
> *What are the chances that you COULD fake her out ?*
> 
> Well I have been increasing the difficulty; bigger search area, farther throws, more difficult terrain, heat of the day, wind and lack there of, lots of exersice before hand...lots of variables to play with.
> ...


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Sounds like you have your shit together! All very good info!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: If you took the hardest challenge you ever gave him, but went back in time and gave it to him at 3 months of age...would he still have been successful?

Sparky was a golden retriever out of hunting lines. He was Irish setter red, which for some reason I saw a lot of the better hunting dogs with that color. 

It is not a fair comparison to tell you the truth. He was an exceptional example of a dog.

At three months ? Probably.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: If you took the hardest challenge you ever gave him, but went back in time and gave it to him at 3 months of age...would he still have been successful?
> 
> Sparky was a golden retriever out of hunting lines. He was Irish setter red, which for some reason I saw a lot of the better hunting dogs with that color.
> 
> ...


We have quite a few great goldens out of hunting lines in our avalanche dog program up here in Canada. Most are the same deep red you describe. Usually seem smaller than your non hunting line golden too.

Here is a link to some pictures of a really nice one, great handler too:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/incredible-dog-challenge/article1425363/


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## Guest (Jul 20, 2010)

I've seen the same trend. The best Golden's I've seen were reddish and small. Some were actually pretty weird lookin. Kinda terrier-like or something. Very motivated searchers.


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