# Rattle snake aversion training



## Janet Hammond (Jan 6, 2014)

I have a new stray that I have started in PetSmart classes since there are no other alternatives available in this very rural area. I would like to hike with this dog, but I live in an area known for the Mohave Green Rattler. The local Game & Fish offers rattler aversion classes that use shock collars. They are taught by park rangers, not dog trainers.

It is imperative that my dog not entertain any curiosity about these snakes. The Mohave Green is the most poisonous snake on this continent. They are unique among rattlers in producing neurotoxic venom and they are notoriously aggressive. Dogs typically get bitten on their snouts and are vulnerable to brain damage. The Mohave Greens are not seen frequently, but it only takes one unlucky encounter to damage a dog. 

This new dog, Gus, is a very sensitive guy. He is an old-style ranch collie just under 35 lbs and estimated to be about 7-months old. I have never used shock collars, but I bet lots of you have extensive experience. I hope to get lots of good advice! 

Thanks!!
Janet


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

welcome

first off, most people here refer to them as Ecollars rather than shock collars. lots of refs in the archives. the shock collar term is often used by those who consider them cruel training tools. most here do not feel that way at all 

next, do you have any fear of handling snakes ? if they are not a problem for you to handle it will be easier to work with your dog and snakes.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Welcome Janet
Pleas post a bit of info about yourself in the Member Bio's forum here. It's a requirement!
http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f20/

Thanks
WDF Moderator


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## Janet Hammond (Jan 6, 2014)

rick smith said:


> welcome
> 
> first off, most people here refer to them as Ecollars rather than shock collars. lots of refs in the archives. the shock collar term is often used by those who consider them cruel training tools. most here do not feel that way at all
> 
> next, do you have any fear of handling snakes ? if they are not a problem for you to handle it will be easier to work with your dog and snakes.


Hi Rick,

I learned something new already! I have not used ecollars before, but my research so far has led me to the opinion that this will be the best tool for this job. 

I don't have a fear of snakes. I admire their muscular litheness. However, I am not an experienced snake handler and certainly am not ready to handle pit vipers. I think the game and fish makes snakes available in a way that is safe for "tourists".


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

The serious bird dog people are experts at teaching snake aversion. I would try to find a pointer kennel and get "pointers"


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## Janet Hammond (Jan 6, 2014)

Faisal Khan said:


> The serious bird dog people are experts at teaching snake aversion. I would try to find a pointer kennel and get "pointers"


I am on it, Faisal!


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

All the bird dog aversion classes I've ever heard about utilize the e-collar. It's the fastest method to get the point across. Unless you have a subject snake available to you that you can train against using a different method. 

Some people don't like the idea of using an e-collar but it's a tool that can be used (or mis-used) just like any other tool.


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## Janet Hammond (Jan 6, 2014)

Sarah Platts said:


> Some people don't like the idea of using an e-collar but it's a tool that can be used (or mis-used) just like any other tool.


I get the impression that people on this forum have felt the need to defend ecollar training. I may be an old dog, but I am still learning new tricks. I have determined this to be the best tool for the job. 

I hope to learn the attributes of ecollar training, guidelines for proper use, and also what forum members have seen in terms of mis-use. The trainer at PetSmart knows nothing about ecollars.

Gus is very sensitive to verbal correction (which brings on episodes of submissive peeing - likely why he ended up a stray), but he responds to a leash correction without an emotional response. He wants to work and follow my lead so he learns quickly with just a few light corrections. While the jack rabbits and cotton tails might pose more of an ongoing temptation, I think he will quickly learn to ignore boring old snakes. 

I respect my dogs so I want to understand methods before applying them. Even as a young child in the 50s attending my dog 4H group, I could not march around in a circle jerking my dog so developed my own way of teaching the exercises. However, because Gus is sensitive I want to be particularly careful. As Sarah says, ecollars can be mis-used.



Sarah Platts said:


> All the bird dog aversion classes I've ever heard about utilize the e-collar. It's the fastest method to get the point across. Unless you have a subject snake available to you that you can train against using a different method.



Thanks Sarah,

I googled "gun dog, Kingman AZ" and got a hit with phone number (Halaupai MT Shorhairs). I will call when its a decent hour, but I will also search this forum for discussions that might benefit a new ecollar trainer.


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

I was curious about this topic. Do you have to use a Rattle snake for this training? I keep pythons and I was thinking about doing it with my dogs using the pythons. I assume they dont smell the same as a rattler but they must have a lot of scent in common wonder if the dog would just generalize.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

if you take a class just be sure to let them know your dog is very sensitive. I have one dog that a nick will do the trick. I have another that, metaphorically speaking, you need to use a 2x4 on to get the same message.

Yes, you should use a snake of the type you want the adversion on. Most of the time mine are running so fast they are to and past the snake. Meanwhile, clumbsy human pulling up the rear usually finds it.


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Haz Othman said:


> I was curious about this topic. Do you have to use a Rattle snake for this training? I keep pythons and I was thinking about doing it with my dogs using the pythons. I assume they dont smell the same as a rattler but they must have a lot of scent in common wonder if the dog would just generalize.


Think about it... Not the right snake at all and your dogs will be frequently exposed to python odor in everyday life, which would either cause unnecessary stress or get them desensitized... using a live rattlesnake is best...


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## Catherine Gervin (Mar 12, 2012)

Anna Kasho said:


> Think about it... Not the right snake at all and your dogs will be frequently exposed to python odor in everyday life, which would either cause unnecessary stress or get them desensitized... using a live rattlesnake is best...


i can't help but think that deliberately putting a dog in the path of a venomous snake is a bad idea. having owned large constrictors myself, i would venture to say that getting dogs and snakes together at all is courting disaster. i think the best bet would be to carry a snake bite kit with the appropriate anti-venom (the particular strain for that specific snake, unless it falls into the category of those who can yield results from a "blanket" anti-venom, as some do) and keep an eye on the dog as you go.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Most have the snake in a cage, and/or defanged, and/or have the mouth taped shut. I've had some folks say they put the snake into the freezer to chill it down a bit so it will be more placid for a longer working time. This isn't something you can pretend or make believe with. There isn't a fake snake smell that you can put out for training. As far as the anti-venoms, those products are specific to the type of snake. It's not a one-size-fits-all. That being said, it also doesn't mean that all strikes are envenomated. You can also get dry bites.


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Anna Kasho said:


> Think about it... Not the right snake at all and your dogs will be frequently exposed to python odor in everyday life, which would either cause unnecessary stress or get them desensitized... using a live rattlesnake is best...


 
Live rattlers are illegal to keep here so there would be no way to get ahold of one. If your dog is off leash it is impossible to prevent it from coming up on a rattlerespecially the baby ones that are all over were we camp..kind of the whole purpose of aversion training. I never thought about the odor in the house, good point.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Years ago in Florida you could own poisonous snakes without a license, now you need one. I can tell you from experience that many times I've smelled a rattler before I saw or heard em. When you smell one you stop in your tracks and proceed with due caution with your head on a swivel. If I can smell em I know my dog can.

We have lots of rat snakes, water snakes and black racers in my immediate area. I can tell by my dogs body language that he's on a snake. Some family was down from Illinois and my dog targeted one. They saw him looking into the bushes and asked what he was looking for. I told em it was a snake. I then walked over and flushed the snake out of the brush. They couldn't believe I knew what it was. There's just something hinky about a dogs body language when it comes to snakes. Easy to read.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Howard said
" There's just something hinky about a dogs body language when it comes to snakes."


I've seen that with most reptiles not just snakes. My thoughts are the reptiles being cold blooded create a lot of confusion to a lot of dogs. The little earthdogs not so much. I've seen more then a few get snake bit because they just can't seem to leaves something moving alone. Luckily in this area it's 90% + copperheads. That will swell up a terriers head like a mellon but rarely deadly. 
One of my hunting partners was a Vet and she would just give them a tetanus and antibiotic shot. 
I've seen more then one terrier that had to be retired simply because one bite means war. That goes for skunks, porcupines, whatever. The evil little bassid equate pain with war. One of my Borders had to be retired because he was never happy just baying with raccoons in the ground


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

I have seen rattlesnake aversion training, as well as worked and handled the snakes, so I have some experience to go with . I don't know where you are located, but can you check for a herpetologist, museum or research facility, a wildlife rehabber, or critter rescue/relocation service? All these people can be legaly licensed and have the experience and knowledge to have a live rattlesnake. Worst come to worst, you may be able to get some freshly shed skins, although this is far from ideal. Although if you you train on your own I hope you are experienced at reading your dog, and have great timing with the ecollar(you can create a lot of collateral damage if you don't know what you are doing)

Alternatively, you might consider travelling to a good class or workshop. If done right, the aversion training creates a lasting impression. I have seen dogs brought in for refresher training a year or two after the original class who still showed clear avoidance despite lack of exposure to snakes and the long time interval.

For everyone - SAFETY is number one priority, so the dog and snake are never able to actually come in contact with one another in a class. It's not a free for all, and the snake doesn't need to be tortured by pullling fangs or taping up its mouth, just securely confined and handled with some comon sense...


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Pulling fangs is not only cruel but about as dumb as it gets. The snake has another set of fangs ready to drop in place within a very short time. 
They shed them on a regular basis and breaking a fang isn't uncommon either.


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Catherine Gervin said:


> i think the best bet would be to carry a snake bite kit with the appropriate anti-venom (the particular strain for that specific snake, unless it falls into the category of those who can yield results from a "blanket" anti-venom, as some do) and keep an eye on the dog as you go.


Are people even able to get antivenin? Last I remember checking it was not available to the general public, and the cost was several thousand dollars per vial. It takes several vials to treat a bite, 4 to 10 in a human, as I remember. 

CroFab is the main, or maybe the only rattlesnake antivenin in the USA. It is sheep-based. There used to be a horse-based one made by Wyeth, but I think it's been discontinued due to allergic reactions from patients - but may still be available. Of course, if you are deathly allergic to horses or sheep, neither of these would do you much good!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Some of the issues with anti-venom are expense, shelf life and they are also species specific. A timber rattlesnake venom may do no good for a diamond back, etc. I believe refrigeration may also be needed.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i'm curious to read how the OP does the training. please post later
TIA 

we have venomous snakes here and my dog will now avoid all but the very small ones. i think he thinks they are lizard tails


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Bob Scott said:


> Pulling fangs is not only cruel but about as dumb as it gets. The snake has another set of fangs ready to drop in place within a very short time.
> They shed them on a regular basis and breaking a fang isn't uncommon either.


I know that Bob. And they know it too. But for the day they are teaching the class, it's a good short term solution to lessening the risks of accidental bites.


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## Catherine Gervin (Mar 12, 2012)

i'm glad i wasn't the only person to be upset by the notion of taping a snake's mouth closed or de-fanging it to use it for nebulous dog/snake interaction. those sad crocodilians at reptile expos with their mouths duct-taped, and they at least posses tough skins...the delicate skin around the labial pits of venomous snakes does not appear to lend itself to such abrasive treatment.
anti-venom is something you must pass screening to get, but any herper who owns a venomous snake--at least in Ohio--had to get both their own supply as well as a vial for their nearest hospital to keep in stock. yes, it totally has a rigid shelf-life, so one must update the supply, but this is a part of animal husbandry if you wanna own hot snakes. i am sure that any professional resource which maintains a collection of venomous snakes would have their own corresponding meds, but i think it's a cool notion that they might cooperate to help dog owners train their dogs to aversion. 
as for the dog acting specifically odd in reaction to reptiles, i think that varies...my Labrador could not figure out what my Blue Tongued Skink was and would try to stomp him whenever i had him out to sun on the driveway. fast forward a dozen years later and my GSD exhumed and ate a 4' rat snake in a friend's yard. i caught her with a tail hanging out of her mouth and was left feeling very lucky to find the snake's old skin near its' burrow to figure out what it was.
how can it be, i marvel, that dogs bitten by Copperheads can just weather it and be alright when people can get into serious trouble? maybe less venom-if any at all, dry bites and all-- is pumped into the dog because they are smaller?


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Howard said
> " There's just something hinky about a dogs body language when it comes to snakes."
> 
> 
> I've seen that with most reptiles not just snakes. My thoughts are the reptiles being cold blooded create a lot of confusion to a lot of dogs.


 Yea well, round here turtles were created to be used as footballs, toads to be nudged and lizards are meant to be chased. Snakes on the other hand bring hinky behavior


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## Janet Hammond (Jan 6, 2014)

rick smith said:


> i'm curious to read how the OP does the training. please post later
> TIA


Roger that, Rick!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Catherine, if you had the tail/tail skin that would be enough to identify the venimous snakes in the US other then the coral snake.
All are pit vipers here and the tail will have only one row of scales from the vent to the tip of the tail while non venimous snakes will have two rows from the vent to the tail tip. 
Two fangs = one row of scales = venimous
No fangs = two rows of scales = non- venimous
Then ther is the obvious cat eye pupil in the pit vipers. NO North American, non venimous snake has either cat eye pupils or one row of scales under the tail.


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## Catherine Gervin (Mar 12, 2012)

Bob Scott said:


> Catherine, if you had the tail/tail skin that would be enough to identify the venimous snakes in the US other then the coral snake.
> All are pit vipers here and the tail will have only one row of scales from the vent to the tip of the tail while non venimous snakes will have two rows from the vent to the tail tip.
> Two fangs = one row of scales = venimous
> No fangs = two rows of scales = non- venimous
> Then ther is the obvious cat eye pupil in the pit vipers. NO North American, non venimous snake has either cat eye pupils or one row of scales under the tail.


that is COOL!! i never knew the row-of-scales-trick! the heads are pretty obvious between venomous/non-venomous snakes in the US, that scowl that both the Old World and New World Vipers have just gives them away, especially with the slit pupils, but Elapids are kindof trickier...i think a King Cobra with his hood down looks like Snoopy's profile, nothing sinister about that round head until you notice he's over 8' long and he rises up and displays! 
when my dog ate the snake i went to compare the skin with sheds online and felt pretty lucky that all i had to worry about was indigestion, which she did get in abundance.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I've never understood how folks can kill so many different harmless snakes because "that's a copperhead". 
To me it's like calling a Collie a Bull dog. There is that much visual differences IMHO. 
Most ALL snakes are heavily patterned (cammo) when young. Even baby black snakes but the pit vipers are still different even then.


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## Catherine Gervin (Mar 12, 2012)

but most people really don't like snakes. natural born aversion to all out hatred because they're scary? my mother does not concern herself with the fact that a little green racer couldn't actually hurt her, she grabs her Corgi and barracades the two of them in her bathroom and calls for help. if i am unavailable to come over she will call the police. because this is Lexington, MA the police do actually appear for such a farce but the senior officer saw the little tiny thing and went back to the car saying "No, I don't do snakes--this is a "New Guy" task".
at least they didn't shoot at it.


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Catherine Gervin said:


> i'm glad i wasn't the only person to be upset by the notion of taping a snake's mouth closed or de-fanging it to use it for nebulous dog/snake interaction. those sad crocodilians at reptile expos with their mouths duct-taped, and they at least posses tough skins...the delicate skin around the labial pits of venomous snakes does not appear to lend itself to such abrasive treatment.
> anti-venom is something you must pass screening to get, but any herper who owns a venomous snake--at least in Ohio--had to get both their own supply as well as a vial for their nearest hospital to keep in stock. yes, it totally has a rigid shelf-life, so one must update the supply, but this is a part of animal husbandry if you wanna own hot snakes. i am sure that any professional resource which maintains a collection of venomous snakes would have their own corresponding meds, but i think it's a cool notion that they might cooperate to help dog owners train their dogs to aversion.
> as for the dog acting specifically odd in reaction to reptiles, i think that varies...my Labrador could not figure out what my Blue Tongued Skink was and would try to stomp him whenever i had him out to sun on the driveway. fast forward a dozen years later and my GSD exhumed and ate a 4' rat snake in a friend's yard. i caught her with a tail hanging out of her mouth and was left feeling very lucky to find the snake's old skin near its' burrow to figure out what it was.
> how can it be, i marvel, that dogs bitten by Copperheads can just weather it and be alright when people can get into serious trouble? maybe less venom-if any at all, dry bites and all-- is pumped into the dog because they are smaller?


I deal with several Cottonmouth bites a year with the dogs. They aren't dry bites, but nothing benadryl and dexamethasone can't fix.


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## Noel Long (Mar 13, 2013)

When I observed rattlesnake aversion training in SoCal, the snakes were usually bagged. A box or perimeter was outlined on the ground with surveyor's tape. Dog + owner could not cross that border. A docile one may be removed from the bag. 

They wanted the dog to associate the rattle with the zap, so using a python wouldn't work. I also agree that aversion training could create problems at home with your pet snakes. 

When I watched it, owner walked with leashed dog around the bagged snake. Just la-dee-dah strolled around. The aversion training expert zapped the dog when it showed interest in the snake. Another person focused on the snake. Snakes were rotated often.


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## Janet Hammond (Jan 6, 2014)

Noel Long said:


> The aversion training expert zapped the dog.


What defines an aversion training expert? 

This is my main interest in this thread. I want to know what questions to ask when I interview the game & fish about these classes. I plan to go this afternoon to talk with them.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

curious ... are they dog trainers hired by Fish/Wildlife or F/W rangers that have some dog experience ?

- i would try and casually inquire what other dog training experience they have and try and check their background. i wasn't aware there were dog trainers that only specialized in snake aversion training
- you might ask to see some vid clips of their classes. if they don't/won't refer you to any, that might be a red flag for me


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## Meg O'Donovan (Aug 20, 2012)

Janet, once you have finished this training event, could you detail the procedures, and any insights you have?
There are rattlesnakes in the area where I run my SAR dog. I have acquaintances at a wildlife centre who could provide/manage with captive rattlers, but my sense is I would have to organize this for us. My dog is the only SAR dog in this rural area, and I haven't heard of anyone else doing snake aversion training here.


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## Janet Hammond (Jan 6, 2014)

rick smith said:


> i'm curious to read how the OP does the training. please post later
> TIA .





Meg O'Donovan said:


> Janet, once you have finished this training event, could you detail the procedures, and any insights you have?
> There are rattlesnakes in the area where I run my SAR dog. I have acquaintances at a wildlife centre who could provide/manage with captive rattlers, but my sense is I would have to organize this for us. My dog is the only SAR dog in this rural area, and I haven't heard of anyone else doing snake aversion training here.


You all have been generous with your suggestions and comments - its the least I can do


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## mel boschwitz (Apr 23, 2010)

Meg, if you have hunting dogs anywhere near you, then you probably have snake avoidance training. Google search for snake avoidance training and your state should come up with a list of places that offer it, mostly for hunting dogs but I am sure they will take your money too. 

My female bh has shown a natural aversion to poisonous snakes but I have severe doubts on this new dog. I will be taking him to a class this year.


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## Meg O'Donovan (Aug 20, 2012)

Thanks for the tip, Mel, I'll look into it. I know guys with cougar hounds but they don't do any snake training. They are more fatalistic than me. The snakes are mainly west of us, and there's not much to hunt over there (semi-desert), but for rare quail, some grouse, and coyotes. I'm in British Columbia, Canada. In my area, aside from the few houndsmen, there's not anyone local who hunts with dogs, despite the many lovely lakes, marshes & rivers. 
Around here fowl-retrieving dogs are mainly brought in from outside by people who pay (alot!) to fish and hunt on private ranchlands. A daughter and SIL of the Walmart founder have been busy buying up huge amounts of local land. The Walmart descendants now own, in just our area (they have also bought huge ranches at Alkalai Lake and Dog Creek in the Chilcotin region of BC), the following:

Douglas Lake Cattle Company, Canada's largest working ranch, http://douglaslake.com/

This month, they bought another big local ranch, Quilchena Cattle Company, which had been owned & operated by a local family since 1880s;
http://www.merrittherald.com/douglas-lake-ranch-buys-quilchena/

Rumour has it they've also bought another big local ranch, Nicola Ranch, http://www.nicolaranch.com/hunting.html

Not sure why they aren't investing that money in the country where they got their start and have made their billions (U.S.A.). 
No rattlesnakes on the ranches they've bought.


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## Janet Hammond (Jan 6, 2014)

Janet Hammond said:


> You all have been generous with your suggestions and comments - its the least I can do



The person who holds the snake aversion class in my area has a website:
http://vipervoidance.com/Home_Page.html

He says he doesn't necessarily turn the ecollar up all the way, but the first shock is powerful. He said it was b/c there may not be a second chance to correct the dog. Is that how you (ecollar savvy readers) would approach this?


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## Janet Hammond (Jan 6, 2014)

As requested, I am here to report on the initial phase of the rattle snake aversion training. 

A single dog is allowed in the large fenced in snake area with three crates/cages. The e-collar is put on the dog. I walked him up to the first cage which is empty and we sniffed it a bit. Then we go to next cage, about 25 feet away. It had three rattlers in it. When Mr. August showed interest he was zapped. My sweet, well leashed trained dog bolted hard. I was not ready for it and almost fell - LOL

We praised Mr A, who calmed immediately and walked to the 3rd crate. By the time we were within 5 ft, Mr. A turned away. We praised August. Then we wondered back to the initial empty cage to see if there was any apparent confusion b/t being aversive to snakes or cages. Apparently there was no confusion.

We return next month for phase II. I will let you know how that goes ;-)


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Janet
Tx for the update. Based on what you have written it's hard for me to judge one way or the other without asking for more details.

Fwiw, 
1. that's not the way I use an Ecollar. without going in to all the reasons, one is that I do a lot more collar conditioning b4 I ever use it for anything. Could be the snake aversion trainer doesn't care or doesn't want to spend the time, and just sets it at a high enuff setting that he knows will zap the dog, etc. And i'm also assuming you don't use an Ecollar.
2. and not preparing you in advance doesn't seem too professional 

As for the the web site, i guess i'm a skeptic type  
- I tend to downplay sites where there are tons of testimonials posted, but no videos are posted. Anyone I might train with can view lots of videos I have taken with other dogs as well as talk to those owners personally before they ever make a decision to start or not. it sounds like a high volume business, but what the heck, if it works and doesn't leave any superstitious baggage with the dog, hard to argue with success. otoh, how successful, and whether there is baggage might be hard to tell for awhile unless you have access to a lot of those cages 
- i might ask to let the dog spend more time at the empty ones and observe the dog closely while you keep it near, sniff, stick its head in, etc
- i would be very sure it was the scent and not just the sight of the snake that creates the aversion, as in having snakes in another container besides a cage

keep us posted....tx again


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Janet Hammond said:


> As requested, I am here to report on the initial phase of the rattle snake aversion training.
> 
> A single dog is allowed in the large fenced in snake area with three crates/cages. The e-collar is put on the dog. I walked him up to the first cage which is empty and we sniffed it a bit. Then we go to next cage, about 25 feet away. It had three rattlers in it. When Mr. August showed interest he was zapped. My sweet, well leashed trained dog bolted hard. I was not ready for it and almost fell - LOL
> 
> ...


This sounds like the normal method. It would have need nice to know before hand what to expect but every dog is different. Some just move away and some are more athletic when they get the negative reinforcement. But by not having any ecollar conditioning before hand the dog is probably building up a stronger aversion. Can't wait for Part II.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

was thinking about this some more....
- since you will rarely encounter a rattlesnake in a cage, it might also be more realistic to have the cages wrapped with foliage or rocks, etc

i see no reason to use just a cage, but i don't know what kind they use

- if a snake is in the open you or your dog may see it in advance
- the one that is hidden may be the one you want to avoid and it might not be rattling if it doesn't feel threatened
- do they have them rattle in the class ??


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Rick, 
Do'ya think that might be in the Part II? Maybe we should wait for the next installment?


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

From the OP's post it appears that the training was quite brief. Why wait another whole month to do it again?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

In addition to Howard's question, is there follow up training to keep the dog "om it's toes" so to speak?

If the dog runs across more non venomous snakes that you don't see then it seems that could extinguish the learning.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Sarah 
re: "Do'ya think that might be in the Part II? Maybe we should wait for the next installment?"

Janet mentioned "phase II", and she provided the web site; so i checked it. It appears to be current since they listed scheds for 2014.
If the web site is valid, there is no "next installment". It's a one time session and you have to bring your dog back if you want a free retest, etc

i'll wait for an update from Janet, but felt my comments on the web site and on the training were still worth considering so i posted them. 
** Do you think that was not appropriate for some reason ?

here is a copy/paste from the web site :
- Fee: $60 per dog with a free re-test within one month; when you come to us in New River, AZ. (New River is 30 miles north of Phoenix, Arizona)
- Twelve years of experience. 
- Thousands of dogs trained...and one cat.
- Live rattlesnakes used in the training. Snakes are caged for everyone's safety.
- Training available during the week and on the weekend.
- We travel to towns around Arizona providing training. Check the training calendar. 
- Cost per dog when we travel to a site outside of our New River location is $75 per dog. Minimum number of dogs apply, typically 10-15. 
- Retests at a non New River site is $30 per dog.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

additionally

if i had a high volume training system that i took on the road using live rattlers, i might not consider "decorating" the cages each time to make the training more realistic because that probably involves time and that is usually money 

and if i ran a lot of dogs thru the program "by the numbers" each time, i probably wouldn't care too much about spending extra time conditioning each dog to the Ecollar 

not saying the system doesn't work; just saying i probably wouldn't do it that way since my training isn't as profit oriented as what i see in this operation based on the web site, and Janet's description seems to support this approach .... and she asked for comments 

i guess it it didn't work they wouldn't still be in business and have so many testimonials they could post about so many dogs (and people's) lives being saved by their program.


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## Noel Long (Mar 13, 2013)

Thanks for posting back, Janet. Hope you haven't been scared off of posting Part II.


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