# What breeders do you recommend?



## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

I'm looking at future breedings. So hard to choose. Mals or dutch.

I want solid nerves, excellent hunt, prey/tug high, social, and a thinking dog, if that makes sense. I'm willing to chance it with a puppy, since this will be a working dog who will live in the house, travel everywhere, and I have a one year old son. 
I took a chance on an unproven breeding with Greta, while she was amazing, her renal failure was likely chronic. So health is going to be important. I have a few in mind. 

Any breeders you recommend?


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## Annamarie Somich (Jan 7, 2009)

Really nice breeding done the other month. Contact Aaron Rice asap.

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/breeding.result?father=1584980&mother=1231553

Army vom Tristate - Melody Greba's certified FEMA dog. He came from a nice litter with 2 other males very good police canines. Get Melody to help you select a good S&R pup.

I am keeping my eye on this litter for future studs. It is a nice mix of lines with strong dogs. So I guess I could say that I have a vested interest. 

I will also be using Army as a stud for one of my girls. Check out Army's rubble video on working-dog.eu. Army is a no-nonsense I want to work type of dog. He is very environmentally secure.

Trouble di Noraa is a lovely female with solid all around temperament and drives. Check out her videos on youtube. Aaron knows Trouble's lines and will be good at puppy selection also.


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

julie allen said:


> I'm looking at future breedings. So hard to choose. Mals or dutch.
> 
> I want solid nerves, excellent hunt, prey/tug high, social, and a thinking dog, if that makes sense. I'm willing to chance it with a puppy, since this will be a working dog who will live in the house, travel everywhere, and I have a one year old son.
> I took a chance on an unproven breeding with Greta, while she was amazing, her renal failure was likely chronic. So health is going to be important. I have a few in mind.
> ...


play it safe and get a pup of Martine Loot ( dont know how social those lines are tho ) I wish i had the money to import one


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Thank you both. I've been trying to narrow down lines and breeders. Not easy to do.


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## kerry engels (Nov 7, 2010)

Land of OZ has a nice Jett X Maddie litter of duchies on the ground. I like Kole Mountain, VL blood in America and Chris Race for Mals. A lot depends on what kind of temperament your looking for. I like harder dogs myself.


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

kerry engels said:


> Land of OZ has a nice Jett X Maddie litter of duchies on the ground. I like Kole Mountain, VL blood in America and Chris Race for Mals. A lot depends on what kind of temperament your looking for. I like harder dogs myself.


I had a jett/dynasty daughter who was a real bitch! Great detection, but not real friendly to other dogs on searches lol. Libby is my current Hrd dog, granddaughter of Jett, and it has been a long road of getting the dog ans human aggression out of her. I won't say its gone, but she focuses enough on the job now to ignore distractions at least. Is this common with these lines?


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## kerry engels (Nov 7, 2010)

julie allen said:


> I had a jett/dynasty daughter who was a real bitch! Great detection, but not real friendly to other dogs on searches lol. Libby is my current Hrd dog, granddaughter of Jett, and it has been a long road of getting the dog ans human aggression out of her. I won't say its gone, but she focuses enough on the job now to ignore distractions at least. Is this common with these lines?


 
I don't know if it is common, but my Jett son Odin dosn't like strangers at all. I was looking at it from a bitework point of view. I did not notice that you were doing detection.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

julie allen said:


> I had a jett/dynasty daughter who was a real bitch! Great detection, but not real friendly to other dogs on searches lol. Libby is my current Hrd dog, granddaughter of Jett, and it has been a long road of getting the dog ans human aggression out of her. I won't say its gone, but she focuses enough on the job now to ignore distractions at least. Is this common with these lines?


You bring up an interesting point when SAR people pull their dogs from hard or high aggression protection dog lines. Now you bring up a new twist of human aggression issues which I never really gave much thought to before. I guess this is why some testing organizations are now having to do sociability tests before they will even let the dog test for certification. Fail the sociability test and you can't even test for the detection phase. 

So when folks out there are recommending breeders or bloodlines just remember what the dog has to be capable of as an end product. I know Julie is well aware of the issues involved but I'm worried that a newbie reading this string will end up getting a puppy from one of these lines or kennels and end up with an unsuitable dog for SAR work.


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Sarah Platts said:


> You bring up an interesting point when SAR people pull their dogs from hard or high aggression protection dog lines. Now you bring up a new twist of human aggression issues which I never really gave much thought to before. I guess this is why some testing organizations are now having to do sociability tests before they will even let the dog test for certification. Fail the sociability test and you can't even test for the detection phase.
> 
> So when folks out there are recommending breeders or bloodlines just remember what the dog has to be capable of as an end product. I know Julie is well aware of the issues involved but I'm worried that a newbie reading this string will end up getting a puppy from one of these lines or kennels and end up with an unsuitable dog for SAR work.


Absolutely agree! Many want mals for SAR and have no idea what they are getting into. 
I want the stable nerves, hunt drive, focus, all the intensity of the mal or dutch but can't use a maneater lol. They don't need to be face lickers, but I do want a social dog. Even a dog that will focus and work around others (like Libby) is fine with me, but I prefer the type who can be in public safely, and still do all the mal things .


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## Ang Cangiano (Mar 2, 2007)

Konnie Hein does FEMA and SUSAR, I think she's a board member.

Just a side not, chronic does not necessarily mean hereditary.

Ang


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Sarah Platts said:


> You bring up an interesting point when SAR people pull their dogs from hard or high aggression protection dog lines. Now you bring up a new twist of human aggression issues which I never really gave much thought to before. I guess this is why some testing organizations are now having to do sociability tests before they will even let the dog test for certification. Fail the sociability test and you can't even test for the detection phase.


I'd add to that, some of the SAR people I know also need the dog to be dog friendly, or at least dog neutral. They tell me they routinely have multiple dogs traveling in closer quarters, sometimes loose, and the dogs have to be able to tolerate it.


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I'd add to that, some of the SAR people I know also need the dog to be dog friendly, or at least dog neutral. They tell me they routinely have multiple dogs traveling in closer quarters, sometimes loose, and the dogs have to be able to tolerate it.


Dog neutral is what I prefer. Libby is now at the point she can work beside any dog, in drive. Out of drive, not happening. She has been my project dog. When she first got here she was so animal aggressive I didn't think she could ever work in sar. Her focus is sharp enough now that she has matured.
To avoid all of that from the beginning would be nice. I know that's not a guarantee with a puppy though.


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Ang Cangiano said:


> Konnie Hein does FEMA and SUSAR, I think she's a board member.
> 
> Just a side not, chronic does not necessarily mean hereditary.
> 
> Ang


Right, and there really is no way to tell now. The other sibling owners I've contacted have no issues so far. My vet says either genetic or just a freak thing with her.


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

kerry engels said:


> Land of OZ has a nice Jett X Maddie litter of duchies on the ground. I like Kole Mountain, VL blood in America and Chris Race for Mals. A lot depends on what kind of temperament your looking for. I like harder dogs myself.


 
whats Kole mountain's tygo like? how does he produce?


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

I don't see why they care if a dog is aggressive toward humans...I like aggressive dogs myself. I'm not SAR guy though.


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## Meg O'Donovan (Aug 20, 2012)

Well, what if that aggressive dog bites on the already tired, lost, sick person whom it was supposed to be finding? Especially if it is a kid, or an autistic kid, or old person with dementia? It'is just common sense that aggression towards humans would be a bad idea for a SAR dog. A dog's aggression would pile more trauma onto the person who already is suffering. SAR dogs are not apprehension dogs.

Also, perhaps a dog who genuinely likes people is going to be more motivated to find them.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Ben Thompson said:


> I don't see why they care if a dog is aggressive toward humans...I like aggressive dogs myself. I'm not SAR guy though.



It matters. It matters because we are out looking for 3 year-old kids and 85 year-old grandmas. Neither of which need to be dealing with a dog bite(s) on top of the rest of their problems. I know of three cases where human aggressive sar dogs attacked and bit the victims who later sued and was awarded a bunch of money by the courts. So yes, Ben, it matters.


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## Meg O'Donovan (Aug 20, 2012)

Just curious, who got sued? The owner/handler of the dog, the organization, or ?


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## Garland Whorley (Jun 5, 2008)

Just curious to thoughts anyone watching that Jett and Maddie breeding from Land of OZ?? thoughts on it


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Meg O'Donovan said:


> Just curious, who got sued? The owner/handler of the dog, the organization, or ?


One case (involving a child) was particularly bad because the dog only stopped the attack after the child was injured enough to lose consciousness. The handler was sued and his argument that the parents should be happy that the dog found the child and not mind some bites.... was struck down as a defense.
The team leader was sued because he sent the dog and was aware of the issues concerning this dog (rough play and being aggressive toward the victims) and bears the responsibility of only using dogs that do not bring more than the normal risk of being a dog. The police and fire department were also convicted as well as faced internal review by their agencies. The team's insurance company said they would not pay since the situation was deliberate on the side of the handler. The parents sued not just for medical bills but also lifelong pain and suffering since the child will likely face lifelong impairment. So the handler and team leader were, in effect, financially ruined.

Case 2 involved a SAR dog (again known for aggressive behaviors) that attacked the elderly wife as she approached her now-located husband. That case was quietly settle by the sheriff's office who then disbanded the SAR team.

Case 3 involved a police dog what was used to track a missing man that suffered from dementia. The dog located him in some bushes and promptly bit him. 
While googling for the final resolution on Case 3 I cam across several more articles of dogs attacking other searchers or the missing subject so it's something SAR people need to be paying attention to when they set out selecting a dog that will be used for live searching.


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## Meg O'Donovan (Aug 20, 2012)

Sarah Platts said:


> One case (involving a child) was particularly bad because the dog only stopped the attack after the child was injured enough to lose consciousness. The handler was sued and his argument that the parents should be happy that the dog found the child and not mind some bites.... was struck down as a defense.
> The team leader was sued because he sent the dog and was aware of the issues concerning this dog (rough play and being aggressive toward the victims) and bears the responsibility of only using dogs that do not bring more than the normal risk of being a dog. The police and fire department were also convicted as well as faced internal review by their agencies. The team's insurance company said they would not pay since the situation was deliberate on the side of the handler. The parents sued not just for medical bills but also lifelong pain and suffering since the child will likely face lifelong impairment. So the handler and team leader were, in effect, financially ruined.
> 
> Case 2 involved a SAR dog (again known for aggressive behaviors) that attacked the elderly wife as she approached her now-located husband. That case was quietly settle by the sheriff's office who then disbanded the SAR team.
> ...


 This supports the argument for screening. If you bookmarked those other links that you found in looking for Case 3, I think it would be useful to post them in a new thread for those interested in working in SAR, even if you have to redact identifiers. 

Your brief descriptions of the scenarios are also helpful, because I think it makes sense to train the dogs to experience all kind of quarry, even those lost souls behaving strangely or unpredictably. Trainers can set up scenarios, such as ones based on the first two (with safety provisions in place), to check for any reactions. Better safe than sorry.


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

It's also common for lost children to run or scream when approached by a large barking dog. Elderly with dementia will often strike and yell at the dog. Even HRD dogs are exposed to many people on a typical search. Firemen in turnout gear are one of the first things we accustom dogs to.


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## Maureen A Osborn (Feb 12, 2010)

Yea, I can see them thinking that is just another bitesuit, LOL. Sport/PP dogs are a different mindset than SAR dogs...I personally would not even humor the thought of Melee doing SAR....


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Plus most of these folks are subject to mental health issues or conditions such as Alzheimers and do not behave in a normal fashion (and children such as those with Autism or Down's). The herky, jerky movements that some exhibit remind me horribly of sport dog decoy movements. They do not behave in a normal fashion that you would expect nor may they smell 'right' due to medications.
These things can set a dog on edge which make temperament stability an important issue. Someone once said that SAR dogs are a watered down version of what a dog should be. I disagree since the selection process can be just as strenuous and ball-busting as finding the ideal sport dog.


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## Maureen A Osborn (Feb 12, 2010)

Totally agree Sarah...the DS I have currently would do well as a PPD, narc, or bomb detection...as a SAR dog, I wouldnt chance it, her lines are way too civil...the DS I had prior was a social butterfly and loved all people and dogs...she could have been a SAR or therapy dog easily....unfortunately lost her to cancer at 18 months. Two totally different temperaments.


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## Meg O'Donovan (Aug 20, 2012)

Sarah Platts said:


> nor may they smell 'right' due to medications.
> .


I hadn't thought of this, but yet another variation for practise search scenarios. 
Thanks.


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

Yup. Somebody mentioned Konnie Hein's breedings. All of the dogs I've seen from her breedings have a very social nature and seemed very well nerved. The ones I'd seen were not S&R dogs. She also tests, intensely, for hunt drive, agility and strong nerves in all her litters. I think contacting her would be a great start. Good luck.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

a "human aggressive SAR dog" is a lottery ticket...enuff said
- fwiw, i would have sued everyone and anyone too, and probably for more than they got sued for ... moronic to even take a human aggressive dog to the first stage of SAR training

- i think i mentioned one of the dogs on a SAR op i went on was a reactive GSD w/ a police handler. i also casually said that dog could be a liability and was quickly countered with "it has GREAT OB and control" ](*,)
- the only dogs i've seen here so far that would seem like good SAR prospects were great hunters but too reactive when they found what they were hunting for and had poor recalls

one thing i might differ on is dogs reacting to mental cases. i have found the opposite to be true. i've worked with two dogs that were reactive and one i ended up keeping. 
- we have a yearly festival for mentally disabled kids and adults combined. they have outdoor booths set up and let them do all sorts of relay races and crazy stuff, and the event is very loud. i've taken both of these dogs there just to see how they would react to spastic movements, yelling, etc.
- i was expecting a lot of reactivity and was totally amazed at how NONreactive both dogs were
- of course all dogs are finely tuned in to body language but from what i saw, it seemed that both dogs also read some mental aspect and saw nothing that caused more reactivity. one of the dogs i actually brought into booths and it was handled by some pretty freaky kids. that dog now visits a handicapped school a couple times a year
- i know how we would assume this would NOT be the case, just saying that has NOT been my experience when dealing with it. either something about a dog reading threats better than humans or these were two unique dogs. and maybe it has something to do with a different type of eye contact; who knows ? 
- i would be interested in hearing from anyone with similar face to face encounters like what i have mentioned


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## kerry engels (Nov 7, 2010)

Michael Murphy said:


> whats Kole mountain's tygo like? how does he produce?


Kole Mountain does not have Tygo. I think a gal named Angela Canning does, I heard he died. Kole Mountain has Bor and Reppie.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Zakia Days said:


> Yup. Somebody mentioned Konnie Hein's breedings. All of the dogs I've seen from her breedings have a very social nature and seemed very well nerved. The ones I'd seen were not S&R dogs. She also tests, intensely, for hunt drive, agility and strong nerves in all her litters. I think contacting her would be a great start. Good luck.


Not all of Konnie's dogs are social, she has some doing HRD specifically because they aren't social. However, Konnie will tell you which ones are social and which ones aren't, it's not like she's going to sell you an anti-social dog for SAR.


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

rick smith said:


> a "human aggressive SAR dog" is a lottery ticket...enuff said
> - fwiw, i would have sued everyone and anyone too, and probably for more than they got sued for ... moronic to even take a human aggressive dog to the first stage of SAR training
> 
> - i think i mentioned one of the dogs on a SAR op i went on was a reactive GSD w/ a police handler. i also casually said that dog could be a liability and was quickly countered with "it has GREAT OB and control" ](*,)
> ...


I don't find that to be normal. At least not typical of the more reactive breeds. However some dogs do seem to sense this, and are more patient with this type of person. Greta was that way. Libby is not (she is Hrd only).


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## Amber Scott Dyer (Oct 30, 2006)

http://www.redhuntingpoodles.com/

just saying - :mrgreen: you're looking for a stable, nonreactive, athletic dog with lots of drive, can't beat a hunting line standard poodle. 

big, fat pro - don't have to worry about scaring small children, almost no social aggression 

cons - lots of grooming and not as healthy as a mal/dutch


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## Annamarie Somich (Jan 7, 2009)

Amber Scott said:


> http://www.redhuntingpoodles.com/
> 
> just saying - :mrgreen: you're looking for a stable, nonreactive, athletic dog with lots of drive, can't beat a hunting line standard poodle.
> 
> ...


Cool. A poodle would be very approachable for a scared child. It would also probably get a lot of good publicity since it would unique. 

What about a lab? A good field trial lab can be just as high energy as a mal. It may be more expensive though.


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Poodles are out due to grooming requirements. I'm not a lab person . I've had mals for 15 years, and wouldn't want to work another breed.

I just prefer social mals for sar. Plenty out there, just a matter of finding one that fits.

I'm looking at a Kukays mal now. (Bottom side). Anyone here have experience with those?


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Not all of Konnie's dogs are social, she has some doing HRD specifically because they aren't social. However, Konnie will tell you which ones are social and which ones aren't, it's not like she's going to sell you an anti-social dog for SAR.


I agree. Konnie is very upfront and honest about her dogs and she's been nothing but wonderful the times I've ever messaged her.


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