# How/Why Did the Bouvier Fall Out of Favor?



## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

I realize the Bouvier was never the German Shepherd of the working dog world, but they seem to have been pretty respectable in the working dog world. There are a few videos out there that seem to show them being pretty good at what they are doing (some old, some recent). I know they are sort of a rare "off-breed" in the working world, and I know I could replace "Bouvier" with "Airedale" (I blame Don's posts for my interest in 'Dales) or maybe "Beauceron" or maybe a bunch of other breeds, however I know the Bouvier also have a few advocates on the board, as well as a pretty rich history in the police, military, farms, KNPV, and a few in Ringsport. But I've seen some videos that really peaked my interest and show a pretty nice looking dog.

Just wondering, how popular were they in their heyday, how were their abilities perceived relative to other working dogs (I've been told they're very Rottie-like in some regards), and why has there been so little interest outside of the show ring? Is it the coat, the temperament, them not being as fast or agile as a Malinois, something else? They seem pretty capable and the good ones (while apparently very rare) are spoken about very respectfully.

-Cheers


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

David Ruby said:


> I realize the Bouvier was never the German Shepherd of the working dog world, but they seem to have been pretty respectable in the working dog world. There are a few videos out there that seem to show them being pretty good at what they are doing (some old, some recent). I know they are sort of a rare "off-breed" in the working world, and I know I could replace "Bouvier" with "Airedale" (I blame Don's posts for my interest in 'Dales) or maybe "Beauceron" or maybe a bunch of other breeds, however I know the Bouvier also have a few advocates on the board, as well as a pretty rich history in the police, military, farms, KNPV, and a few in Ringsport. But I've seen some videos that really peaked my interest and show a pretty nice looking dog.
> 
> Just wondering, how popular were they in their heyday, how were their abilities perceived relative to other working dogs (I've been told they're very Rottie-like in some regards), and why has there been so little interest outside of the show ring? Is it the coat, the temperament, them not being as fast or agile as a Malinois, something else? They seem pretty capable and the good ones (while apparently very rare) are spoken about very respectfully.
> 
> -Cheers


 David as a Bouvier breeder and trainer I can tell you that in the 1980's and 90's you could get Bouvs from Holland that were titled and would clean your clock! Breeding in the EU now is almost a has been. It isn't IMO that the quality has gone, but those damn Mals!!!!! Fast, eaters, and small.

I think I'm one of very few who still stands by this working/herding breed. I know what mine can do and those who have made the purchase got a "good measure and then some!" At 85# the breed is similar to the GSD, good workers are as nasty as the Malinois, but with some of the lines I think the coat and beard set them back. Short hair and 2/3 the weight...calling all Mals!

Show lines anything is going to be a joke! Pretty seldom gets the job done! *[Come and get me...]*
If you cut the hair to a Schnauzer style (if needed) then the coat isn't an issue. Size for workers is about 85#, German Shepherd or Rottie size. Depending upon the lines, you can have some dogs that are over the edge, while others are suitable for many venues. Aloof, protective, pushy, man-stoppers, many things come to my mind.

I have a litter coming up on Valentine's Day, I've said it before. Many folks have heard about my male Rock! Good and bad...This dog will pull a 185# decoy in a suit across the feild all day long. My female is social but will fly into you. Some of the decoys I have used really don't like either one because they are unpredictable. Nothing to slip up with!!! I would love to come to Ga. and show Jerry aand Jay the ICE MAN/Rock!

Not the venue, but get one, one of mine would be great, and see for yourself. Then keep the breed on the comeback!


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

Show breeding more than anything...had my first one almost 30 years ago and last one in the late nineties. There are still a handfull being worked in Holland but it's almost over now..the final nail was the ban on docking and cropping. I wouldn't liken them to Rotts all that much, they are lighter built and much more agile, the good ones were a lot of dog and not for everyone, very fierce once lit up and definetly not sleeve suckers.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

The last good bouv in KNPV was around mid 80's I think. I can remember some bouvs in KNPV as a child. 
Breeding for show didn't do any good to the breed, and the docking/cropping got forbidden the breed died out as a working breed. I know only 1 or 2 breeders here in Holland for working bouvs.


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## Alan Fielding (Dec 7, 2009)

Hello David- I am a long time Bouvier owner (almost 30 years) and I currently train my Bouvier in the "gay" sport of Schutzhund.My current dog is from Butch Hendersons , Liberty's Egon There is still is a small group of people in Holland that are breeding and training and titling their Bouviers in Knpv . Of these people perhaps Fokke Krottje , Burt Beyers and Anton Timmers are the best know in the Knpv/Bouvier world. There are still some VERY tough Bouviers to be had both in North America and in the Netherlands. You just have to choose wisely and hope you do not get "too much dog" then you are prepared to handle. Bouviers from Knpv lines can be deceptively quick and agile, strong and aggressive- Get a good one and you will not be disappointed - we need more trainers and Handlers to keep this working Breed alive. - Alan


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

I remember being in Amsterdam about 25 years ago and it seemed like there were Bouviers everywhere. There was one in a bar I was drinking at one night - super friendly, but the bar owner told me he was protection trained and would bite without hesitation - or something like that, it was a long time ago. 

Why did the ban on cropping and docking affect the popularity of the breed as a working dog?


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

It seems as though in the off breed protection dogs (Schnauzer, Airedale, BRT, etc?) that the Bouvier has the best potential and track record. Is this correct?


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## chris haynie (Sep 15, 2009)

i met some show line bouviers today. i was working at the show and the bouvier's were showing and being show dogs they were probably lame, but i could see from the size and structure where they could be quite strong and fast. show dog people are nuts, but they buy stuff and thats cool.

i found a cool old school KNPV bouvier vid while reading this thread. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxY94v3WSUw dog looks serious to me.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

There was a bouvier in this video I have somewhere of the cup of france 2005. He was bigger than the decoys. From what they showed of him, he did not suck.


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## Chad Byerly (Jun 24, 2008)

Seriously, is it a trick angle or how high do you think the Bouvier jumps at 2 minutes from this ancient film
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6hitz_knpv-movie-1933_sport


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## Carolyn Herle (Dec 29, 2009)

Yes, there are still a few die hard breeders of KNPV bouviers left in Holland. Fokke only breeds if he has a female that is KNPV quality and those are a lot scarcer than the males. Interesting now how his lines are the most popular in IPO dogs through Bill vd Barbierhoeve (sire of Howard's Rock) as other breeders try to toughen up their lines.

There was an article in the last DVG America magazine where Tom Rose states that his all time favorite schutzhund dog was a Bouvier. The Bouvier Ali, stood in second spot twice on the Canadian German Shepherd Championships with Brian Currey.
Some of the good ones are too serious for sport especially schutzhund. To them, the fight is not over, the guy is not beaten, so it is not time to stop.

Matt and Shannon Nieukoop saw my female Bouvier Alkemi work in Wisconsin at the NAWBA 09 and did not know that a Bouvier had so much fight drive.
Her sister Dax trained by Burt Beyer will go for KNPV certification this year along with Fokke's Cowboy. 


Carolyn Herle
Herland Working Bouvier Kennel


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Carolyn Herle said:


> ...Some of the good ones are too serious for sport especially schutzhund. To them, the fight is not over, the guy is not beaten, so it is not time to stop.


 I like this statement b/c those who "think" they know dogs don't understand this breed. Too many real service type Bouviers look at the man is a fight object and not a sparring partner. Man-stoppers like a good Rottweiler. I still like the GSN for the size and power it has and makes the top of my list over the Bouvier!

I would agree that the Rottweiler, Doberman, Giant Schnauzer, and Bouvier will all see VERY limited action in Europe and sales to the US b/c of the docking/cropping ban. This is a big reason for their reduction in ownership. If this happens here, you can see many folks leaving the breed. It was hard for me to see my Rock with a tail, soft ears I can handle, but I also go to those damn Mals!!!!!!

If you can find one that will settle down in a kennel, they are GREAT! For K-9 PP I would still rather have the power and size behind the Bouvier than the speed of the Mal. In a short send scenario/home invasion, I don't think any one dog bests the other.


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

MY friend. Dan Stevenot, breeds KNPV bouvs and he does not dock or crop because he sends some of the pups to Europe. I've actually gotten my head around the no cropping or docking ban after seeing them for some time now. It sure makes the dog easier to read.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Robin Van Hecke said:


> MY friend. Dan Stevenot, breeds KNPV bouvs and he does not dock or crop because he sends some of the pups to Europe. I've actually gotten my head around the no cropping or docking ban after seeing them for some time now. It sure makes the dog easier to read.


 Robin that I like. Short tails and short ears on a dog are kind of like someone who doesn't speak LOUDLY! How well would they sell without the carving? Most folks want them w/o the tail. Can't compete in Europe if they are adjusted...


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## Carolyn Herle (Dec 29, 2009)

Dogs don't bite with their tails! Check out the video on Fokke's website www.fokrohof.nl
Mine are all natural ears and tails. Sure it may cost me buyers in North America but on the other hand, I would hate to spend years training a dog and then not be able to compete on an international level because the dog was docked or cropped.

Robin, hasn't Dan talked you into getting back into Bouviers?? Great photo of you in the last Shepherd Sports:razz:

It is also sheer numbers. so many thousands of mal, X mal, gsd versus how many Bouviers? The mal was like the border collie-selected by working people only for working. The show people found the Bouvier. I think for some trainers the tail/ear ban was an excuse to switch to a breed that you could sell easier and for more money for military/police especially after the tragedy of 9-11.


Carolyn


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

No he hasn't but it has crossed my mind. The last Bouv I had was a bit of a dud..The last good one I had was Roy, aKNPV titled dog. He turned out to be a little too hot for what I wanted to do with him and he was sterile to boot.

The Shepherd Sports picture was funny yes, I tend to strike that pose involuntary when my dogs impact on the long bite, they are kamikaze like.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Looking on his website, there was a cool Mal at video #14


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## Carolyn Herle (Dec 29, 2009)

Jeff,
The XMal is Troy, a young male trained by Burt Beyer. I believe he was from Harry Kreeft's kennel.

Carolyn


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

carolyn

Doesnt harry kreeft still work bouvs and and what would they be like..Just curious


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## Amanda Caldron (Mar 2, 2009)

Carolyn, good to see you here! I do recall seeing your dog there (2009 NAWBA event, I was the woman with the 2 dutchies and bulldog) and I must say I was quite impressed with the drive, intensity, athleticism, and fight in the dog! SHE lived for the fight. It was extremely refreshing after seeing so many of them that couldn't handle a simple response from courage.  How is she doing btw? What I have noticed is the consistency, obviously the rate that is being produced as quality workers will be low because very few (good ones) are being breed, not to mention being worked and titled. I also believe that this is a breed that is very much a thinker and a bit independent minded so accomplishing the control and ob that is necessary for titling is extremely hard. For me the deal breaker would be the coat. I have always been so intrigued by so many breeds however I could not deal with a specification of the breed in this instance it is the maintenance of the coat. I remember yours Carolyn didn't look even 1/2 as hard as the many others there although it is still alot for me. I give many credits to the breed and those who strive for keeping at working and breeding these dogs as true workers. They too are very versatile and I enjoy seeing them work! I would honestly say that I believe the agility and speed is right in the range of the average male at least a good bouv. Actually now that I think of it they had races, they called rocket recall or something at the NAWBA event as well where there were 2 mals and many bouv's (obviously) entered and a bouv beat out both mals. I have seen them effortlessly go over the palisade and hurdles. Keep at it all and look forward to seeing them more!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

There was a guy in Denver a while back that used to work bouviers. He had two that I remember, Enemy, and Ben. I saw a female that he had.

Patrick and I cannot remember his last name. LOL


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## Mike D'Abruzzo (Oct 6, 2009)

I had a client about 9 years ago that somehow obtained a bouvier from holland and she made him into a lap dog. His name was Ulysses. No intentions of making him a working dog or giving him structure so you can imagine what he was at 18 months.

He came in for training and "aggression control" since he was a loose cannon. Me and the other trainer that worked with him must talk about him still about once a month - he is like a legend to us.lol.

This dog was tall, strong, and had a head like a cinder block. The first time I saw him get excited on leash and hop nearly higher than my head my jaw dropped. He just radiated strength in a way I can't quite explain.

We never worked him in any sport or PP work, but we saw first hand how serious he could be. He sure loved his mommy though!

We always talk about how much fun we could have had with him doing PP work or sport (as long as it was someone else taking the bites).

Would have never suggested it though with this dog and owner combination.

But, after working with him I dont doubt for a second the stories of them hurting agitators badly.


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## Carolyn Herle (Dec 29, 2009)

will fernandez said:


> carolyn
> 
> Doesnt harry kreeft still work bouvs and and what would they be like..Just curious


Will,
Yes, it is my undestanding that Harry will be competing with his Bouvier Zwabber for his PH1 this year.
There is a website for Bouvier trainers in the KNPV http://www.bouvierindeknpv.nl/english/pages.php?pageid=15870
There are pictures of his dog on there.

Carolyn


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> There was a guy in Denver a while back that used to work bouviers. He had two that I remember, Enemy, and Ben. I saw a female that he had.
> 
> Patrick and I cannot remember his last name. LOL



Jeff,

You can't remember cause you're getting senile 

His name is Pat Gildea the TD for Front Range Hundesport
(UScA club) He's working Mals now


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## Carolyn Herle (Dec 29, 2009)

Amanda Caldron said:


> Carolyn, good to see you here! I do recall seeing your dog there (2009 NAWBA event, I was the woman with the 2 dutchies and bulldog) and I must say I was quite impressed with the drive, intensity, athleticism, and fight in the dog! SHE lived for the fight. It was extremely refreshing after seeing so many of them that couldn't handle a simple response from courage.  How is she doing btw? What I have noticed is the consistency, obviously the rate that is being produced as quality workers will be low because very few (good ones) are being breed, not to mention being worked and titled. I also believe that this is a breed that is very much a thinker and a bit independent minded so accomplishing the control and ob that is necessary for titling is extremely hard. For me the deal breaker would be the coat. I have always been so intrigued by so many breeds however I could not deal with a specification of the breed in this instance it is the maintenance of the coat. I remember yours Carolyn didn't look even 1/2 as hard as the many others there although it is still alot for me. I give many credits to the breed and those who strive for keeping at working and breeding these dogs as true workers. They too are very versatile and I enjoy seeing them work! I would honestly say that I believe the agility and speed is right in the range of the average male at least a good bouv. Actually now that I think of it they had races, they called rocket recall or something at the NAWBA event as well where there were 2 mals and many bouv's (obviously) entered and a bouv beat out both mals. I have seen them effortlessly go over the palisade and hurdles. Keep at it all and look forward to seeing them more!


Hi Amanda,
Good to hear from you too! I didn't talk too much to people at NAWBA as I try to calm myself before competition especially when dealing with Alkemi. I will admit that I have a lot more in common with the other breed owners that show up for the ring trials than I do with most of the Bouvier owners! I knew there wouldn't be much there for real Bouviers but on the other hand, people have to see what a good working Bouvier can do so I made the trip. 

She is doing well. We spend the rest of the fall working on calming and control and will continue this spring. I am doing a lot of behaviour mod for self control with her toys about the vocalization-drive leekage. As for the consistency, there are few really good litters in North America every year.
The coat is a drawback for many.Alkemi is natural coated-what you saw is what she has. She has never been cllippered just a scissors around the head a bit. Her mother, Brid was the same with even less coat. The gene pool for outstanding working dogs is just not big enough to select for coat type.

I hope your dogs are doing well.

Carolyn


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Carolyn Herle said:


> Dogs don't bite with their tails! Check out the video on Fokke's website www.fokrohof.nl
> Mine are all natural ears and tails. Sure it may cost me buyers in North America but on the other hand, I would hate to spend years training a dog and then not be able to compete on an international level because the dog was docked or cropped.
> 
> Robin, hasn't Dan talked you into getting back into Bouviers?? Great photo of you in the last Shepherd Sports:razz:
> ...


Agreed, Carolyn. For people concerned only about working characteristics and temperament, some working dog people fixate an awful lot on cosmetic appearances...seeing the photos Dr. Chris Zink put in her part of the rehabilitation medicine certification course, if I was in the market for a dog that is commonly cropped or with their dewclaws removed, I'd opt out if they were doing a sport with a lot of fast turns and jumping.


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

http://www.angelplace.net/Angel/DestinedToDie.htm


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## clifton anderson (Aug 30, 2007)

We have a Bouvier in our SDA club that is not quite two. He is out of Howard Gaines breeding....we call him "Criminal". This dog is one of the strongest dogs I have seen in last few years. When judged by Jack Rayl in his protection one trial, in his critique he said that this dog represents the 100 percentile in power and speed. Tom Caewood can also attest to this dog...very nice dog!


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## Carolyn Herle (Dec 29, 2009)

Jim Engel said:


> http://www.angelplace.net/Angel/DestinedToDie.htm


Hi Jim,
I read this a few years ago. Like I said before, I know that the number of good Bouviers are low. But I am going to fight to keep this excellent working breed and know that there are others as passionate as I am. There are always two choices when faced with a problem: pessimism, too late etc or do something to change it. It's too bad when people want dogs with drive but don't have any themselves.


Carolyn


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

What needs to be done to turn the interest around? Has the show lines folks been more of the blame, is it the effort in grooming, or is it the fact that some working lines dogs?


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

Howard Gaines III said:


> What needs to be done to turn the interest around? Has the show lines folks been more of the blame, is it the effort in grooming, or is it the fact that some working lines dogs?


Blaming the show folks or the coat is just avoidance.

The biggest mistake of my life was going down the
"need to include everybody, we need to just get
along" road 30 years ago.

That was a huge mistake, because the show, pet
& AKC people are always going to do what they do,
as the article points out.

The idea of "one Bouvier" or the "golden middle"
always turns out to be a mistake, because you just
drive off the people who will be serious in the long
run, often to the Malinois.

Thirty years ago we should have put complete emphasis
on the right lines and working in Schutzhund, because
that is what was there.

Sure, most of us would prefer something like KNPV,
but that was never going to happen.


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

So does the bouv have the potential to be the next dog in ranking after the mal/dutchie and GSD, ahead of all the other secondary breeds?



Would be funny to show up a guy with a presa, bandog, etc with a bovier


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Maybe it's the same as with the Beauceron? In France, the Beauce and I think all other breeds must be confirmed by a judge in order to get breeding papers. What about Belgium, Holland, Germany for their FCI breeds? Breed surveys and the dog must "earn" its breeding papers by conforming and passing the breed evaluation?

If the dog doesn't "measure up" i.e. too tall, too short, nose vs back skull not the correct proportions, coat not perfect, missing markings, white on chest..too big of spot, etc, etc. then these dogs are never given breeding papers no matter what their working qualities. This isn't even talking about "show dogs". It's not allowing the dogs to breed if they can't pass a breed survey. At least here in the States we have the freedom to breed the most ugly working dog we own! LOL It's actually great imo.

Keep eliminating on "looks" long enough you will lose the working dogs. It's been proven throughout history. 

It's like purposely causing the gene pool to stagnate by just continuing to remove dogs from the genetic pool and never putting anything new in.

The Malinois has the NVBK and KNPV breeders to save it. 

The GSD had the eastern block nations for quite awhile, right? No breed surveys, just breeding for work?

The Bouv, Beauce, Dob, Rott have had a lot of regulations and breed surveys.

Next weekend is the Challenge of the Inter Races in Nantes, FRANCE. It's French Ring. I'll ask Tim Welch if he sees any good Bouvs there. Last year there was nothing exceptional. The Beauces performed the best...well a couple of them put on good performances that is.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

I believe if you get a good one you will absolutely show up any of the newly re-created breeds. Long time history of working vs relatively new working dogs.


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

You can't compare a real and good Bouvier to the breeds you mentioned, those are johnny come lately and fad breeds. A good Bouv can be up there with the best but a crap one is real crappy, that is part of the problem with the breed, the good ones are far and few between.
As far as looks go...when you have a crap GSd or Malinois you can still have a good looking crap dog but with the ban on docking and cropping a crap Bouv is only an ugly shitter. Having said that...to me, a Bouv with character and fire overcomes any lack of eye appeal...it's the way a dog carries himself.


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

One doesn't have to go overseas to a good Bouvier...they're right here in my neighborhood...check out Tremadaun Kennel.


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## clifton anderson (Aug 30, 2007)

I agree with Will and Robin...you can't compare a good Bouvier with those mentioned dogs. A good Bouvier has a unique combination of speed power and strength. Their bite work is extemely compelling. We also had another Bouvier in our club that recently passed at like 13 from Jim Engel, owned by Howard Porter. This dog was also fast tough hard and gentle and in the same package.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Unlike some breeds, I haven't seen this one on any BSL hit lists and it has never become a topic of conversation for insurance coverage.


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

This is Marco from Ton Peeters now passed away. He went to Den Bosh in the mid eighties...KNPV championships.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Here are the results from last year's 2009 Challenge of the Berger Francais and Bouviers - French Ring. You can see the names of the handlers and names of the dogs that competed. There are a couple Bouvs. One at FRIII.

http://data0.eklablog.com/challengebf/perso/resultats 2009.jpg


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

The photos are still up from last year as well so you can skim through and see the Bouvs:

http://picasaweb.google.com/syrkos/BERGERFRANCAISRING3?feat=directlink#


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Howard Gaines III said:


> What needs to be done to turn the interest around? Has the show lines folks been more of the blame, is it the effort in grooming, or is it the fact that some working lines dogs?


Hey Howard, from my casual-observer standpoint, I think exposure to the breed and just the reassurance that there are some good ones out there.

For better or worse, I fall in the "don't care what they look like" category. Not that I don't like a good-looking dog, but I find most any breed grows on me. I love the look of a cropped/docked Bouvier or Riesenschnauzer with a shorter/working coat. Tashi's Nessie is gorgeous. That said, the look of the totally natural Bouv's has grown on me. Same with the natural Rottie, and the Malinois (used to not find them attractive, but they've really grown on me), GSD (never cared for the GSD, but I like sable ones aesthetically speaking). I might be in the minority, but I could get used to a natural-style Bouv. I also think (but don't know) that I would really like a Bouvier, personality-wise.

Not a working consideration, per se, but there are things about their personality that I've read and seen in video that make them seem like a dog I would like and gel with. Getting time around a breed is kind of important to make sure they are what you are right for you, energy/drive-wise, how they function (not just temperament/personality, but how they react to stress, handler corrections/praise, etc.). This is probably totally obvious, but even if a breed sounds amazing or awful, unless somebody can check it out for oneself it's hard to make that leap from something you know and are comfortable with to a dog that could be absolutely amazing, or could be overhyped a/o just great but for somebody else's style/personality/whatever.

As for the other thing, more emphasis should be put on what good examples are in any breed. Just talking about the different breeds I was interested over the past several months, two of the trainers I'd mentioned them to casually said Bouv's wouldn't work anymore, a/o they hadn't seen any good ones around, and the other said there were still some good ones and they were very, very good. Sure, I think Malinois are awesome to watch work. They can be more likable than I would have given them credit for as well. That said, within their role and the way they work it sounds like (and certainly looks like) a good Bouvier could be incredibly effective as a working dog. Regardless of points, they seem to have ample ability (again, going from video and accounts of people whom I trust) for sport, police/military, and physical/athleticism. But I think more of a spotlight should be cast on the fact that there are good ones, and here are good places to look for them. In any breed outside of the herders. Nothing against the Shepherds, nothing at all, but if I want a good Malinois, and to a lesser extent Dutch Shepherd or German Shepherd, there are a few names I know of that are supposed to have or be able to get good dogs. Everything else and the sentiment is that good dogs of Breed X, Y, or Z are as common as Unicorn crap. In that case, why bother? That said, if there is even one good breeder of Breed X, and I'm in the market for a dog and interested in that breed, I'd be willing to go searching for that elusive good breeder if there are leads for them.

That's just my thoughts though, as a casual observer who thinks they are a pretty cool breed; more awareness of them and the sentiment that there are still some good ones out there (if that is in fact the case) if you are willing to look for them.

-Cheers


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## kevin holford (Apr 11, 2009)

Here is my lil' GloK... I'm very happy with my Bouv! He's now 4.5 months and is very serious for a puppy.

Here he is at 8 weeks and 1 day old http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iqTCt5UCH4

I think the fact that the Bouv matures slow probly turns some people off to them.


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## kevin holford (Apr 11, 2009)

Chad Byerly said:


> Seriously, is it a trick angle or how high do you think the Bouvier jumps at 2 minutes from this ancient film
> http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6hitz_knpv-movie-1933_sport


 
I read somewhere the Bouv held the record for the highest scaled wall at 16 feet!!!


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

kevin holford said:


> Here is my lil' GloK... I'm very happy with my Bouv! He's now 4.5 months and is very serious for a puppy.
> 
> Here he is at 8 weeks and 1 day old http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iqTCt5UCH4
> 
> I think the fact that the Bouv matures slow probly turns some people off to them.


Slow to mature, my, the women on the board will eat this up an apply it to guys, careful Holford!!!


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## kevin holford (Apr 11, 2009)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Slow to mature, my, the women on the board will eat this up an apply it to guys, careful Holford!!!


I know, my voice just started getting deeper and other strange things are happening????8-[8-[:-o

I could see how the Bouv could be too serious for some sports.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

They say gulping ginger brandy will do that...we have some mad snow hitting us now. FYI check into the S&W 9s


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## Wawashkashi Tashi (Aug 25, 2009)

Matt Grosch said:


> So does the bouv have the potential to be the next dog in ranking after the mal/dutchie and GSD, ahead of all the other secondary breeds?
> 
> Would be funny to show up a guy with a presa, bandog, etc with a bovier


That's pretty much what my Bouv bitch did at the APPDA Trial the Lydas put on up here last year. :-\" I train her in Ring & she hadn't seen any of the scenarios previously.. she just did as asked. She's won numerous Hardest Hitting competitions against bigger bitches *and males*.


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## Wawashkashi Tashi (Aug 25, 2009)

David Ruby said:


> For better or worse, I fall in the "don't care what they look like" category. Not that I don't like a good-looking dog, but I find most any breed grows on me. I love the look of a cropped/docked Bouvier or Riesenschnauzer with a shorter/working coat. *Tashi's Nessie is gorgeous.*


Why, thanks a bunch!!  :grin:
After having the short coat, I couldn't imagine dealing with all the hair, stinky beards & shaving again. I call Ness my "Teflon Dog".. nothing sticks to her short hard coat. I'm _desperately_ hoping we'll get a few short-coated pups out of her this Summer/Fall.


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## kevin holford (Apr 11, 2009)

Wawashkashi Tashi said:


> Why, thanks a bunch!!  :grin:
> After having the short coat, I couldn't imagine dealing with all the hair, stinky beards & shaving again. I call Ness my "Teflon Dog".. nothing sticks to her short hard coat. I'm _desperately_ hoping we'll get a few short-coated pups out of her this Summer/Fall.


Nessie is a good looking girl...Baby GloK has a crush on her!:-D


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## Cate Helfgott (Feb 16, 2009)

What does Nessie look like? I dont think I've seen a picture of her O,o

Thanks 

~Cate


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## Kat LaPlante (May 17, 2009)

A friend of mine here in Calgary has Bouvier's, one in particular he went really far with in Sch. At first I thought...seriously?.....then realized...holy crap this dog means business, something about the dog intimidated me the same way a well trained Rott does, but carried itself with some arrogance like an Airedale, I had nothing but respect for the dog, It was a totally different feeling than what I get form GSD/Mals/and Dutchies.....there were NO warm fuzzy's.....


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Cate Helfgott said:


> What does Nessie look like? I dont think I've seen a picture of her O,o
> 
> Thanks
> 
> ~Cate


Nessie looks great!

Tashi has a Youtube page:
http://www.youtube.com/user/WorkingBB

Some Boerboel and some Bouviers, here's a video of Nessie:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUNJhhqFiPU

She also has some nice pictures of short-haired Bouviers and historical pics in her gallery:
http://www.workingdogforum.com/gallery/browseimages.php?do=member&imageuser=7627

-Cheers


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Wawashkashi Tashi said:


> Why, thanks a bunch!!  :grin:
> After having the short coat, I couldn't imagine dealing with all the hair, stinky beards & shaving again. I call Ness my "Teflon Dog".. nothing sticks to her short hard coat. I'm _desperately_ hoping we'll get a few short-coated pups out of her this Summer/Fall.


Hey Tashi, I really hope that litter turns out great, and I'd love to see at least somewhat of a revitalization of the breed. That sounds like it could be a really special breeding (not that I'm qualified to deem it such, but it sounds like two well-thought-of dogs in a breed that has most writing it off). I'd love to meet you and Bill and the dogs sometime if our paths ever cross.

But I sincerely like what I've seen of Nessie in the pics and video and wish you all the best with the aforementioned litter.

-Cheers


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## Cate Helfgott (Feb 16, 2009)

Thanks David  I saw the historical pics of the dogs and was going through the pics...just didnt see her. I was just curious because I have a Bouv-MalinoisX and was thinking he may end up looking like a short coated Bouv...just wanted to see 

~Cate


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## kevin holford (Apr 11, 2009)

Cate Helfgott said:


> Thanks David  I saw the historical pics of the dogs and was going through the pics...just didnt see her. I was just curious because I have a Bouv-MalinoisX and was thinking he may end up looking like a short coated Bouv...just wanted to see
> 
> ~Cate


 
Mal x Bouve...Got any pictures? Size of dog? Temperment? etc...


Who is Nessie being breed to?


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

kevin holford said:


> Mal x Bouve...Got any pictures? Size of dog? Temperment? etc...
> 
> 
> Who is Nessie being breed to?


 Let's see, light color with a beard...Amish! Dah!!! LOL


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## Cate Helfgott (Feb 16, 2009)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Let's see, light color with a beard...Amish! Dah!!! LOL


LOL....almost, but not quite. He's a mite darker then that 











And the little shit has springs in his ass. I actually am becoming pretty fond of the breed...I love the dad....I'm thinking it's something I might want to work more with in the future...Def. satisfies my love of 'off-breeds'!

~Cate


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## Wawashkashi Tashi (Aug 25, 2009)

kevin holford said:


> Who is Nessie being breed to?


Ness is being bred to a Dutch male Bill had imported named Santos.. he was *very* well-known around here for his hard, tough nerve & high aggression. As much of a "Riot Control" dog he was towards non-family members, he was every bit as sweet & silly towards "his family".. which consisted of Bill, Bill's parents, & me. He's thrown *awesome* puppies for us.. extremely owner-devoted. There's pics of him in my gallery.

Santos pedigree:http://www.bouvierpedigrees.com/cgi-bin/geneal.pl?op=tree&index=55976&gens=5&db=bouvier.dbw

Here's a still pic of Ness, when she was around a year & a half old:


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## Wawashkashi Tashi (Aug 25, 2009)

David Ruby said:


> Hey Tashi, I really hope that litter turns out great, and I'd love to see at least somewhat of a revitalization of the breed. That sounds like it could be a really special breeding (not that I'm qualified to deem it such, but it sounds like two well-thought-of dogs in a breed that has most writing it off). I'd love to meet you and Bill and the dogs sometime if our paths ever cross.
> 
> But I sincerely like what I've seen of Nessie in the pics and video and wish you all the best with the aforementioned litter.
> 
> -Cheers


Thanks David! You aren't too far away, if I remember correctly.. I'm sure we could arrange something once all this miserable snow melts away.


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## kevin holford (Apr 11, 2009)

Wawashkashi Tashi said:


> Ness is being bred to a Dutch male Bill had imported named Santos.. he was *very* well-known around here for his hard, tough nerve & high aggression. As much of a "Riot Control" dog he was towards non-family members, he was every bit as sweet & silly towards "his family".. which consisted of Bill, Bill's parents, & me. He's thrown *awesome* puppies for us.. extremely owner-devoted. There's pics of him in my gallery.
> 
> Santos pedigree:http://www.bouvierpedigrees.com/cgi-bin/geneal.pl?op=tree&index=55976&gens=5&db=bouvier.dbw
> 
> Here's a still pic of Ness, when she was around a year & a half old:


 
Oh, cool... I've seen the pictures of him and he video of him on the spring pole! Good luck with that. We need to get a east coast Bouv reserection... That's RESerection Howard!


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## Anna Van Kovn (Aug 24, 2009)

Ness look very much like my giant schnauzer working line puppy


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## Wawashkashi Tashi (Aug 25, 2009)

Anna Van Kovn said:


> Ness look very much like my giant schnauzer working line puppy


Looks can be deceiving!  lol 
I'll take it as a compliment, since IMO the GS coat length is somewhat closer to what I prefer the Bouvs to wear, like many of the old-style dogs. -Ness' coat is pretty hard.. most GS I've touched are quite a bit softer & fluffier.
A *long time* ago, Bill used to work the most magnificent GS that was a PSD.. the video (that we have) of that dog is nothing short of amazing! Meanest, _toughest_ thing you could ever imagine! O
Do you have any video of your GS.. I'd love to see!


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## Anna Van Kovn (Aug 24, 2009)

I have 2 GS. Male is 14 month old and female is 4 month old. Female out of working lines. Her father is Lex von Hatzbachta (IPO3) l. I trained both in french ring. Do not have any videos of my dogs yet. But here is video of father: 
Both my GS very hard coated. 
With GS similar problems . Dog shows basically killing breed. However, working lines still around.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkKQHzhgNJY


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