# cattle herding lessons



## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

I wasn't going to post these because they are boring as shit but Maren requested that I do so why not. Maybe somebody can learn something.

This is video from the very first time the dogs have seen cows.

rottweiler http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frqgdmCj9Hc

malinois http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRxvp43r1d0

any and all comments are appreciated.


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## Rachel Schumacher (Oct 11, 2006)

Thanks for posting Chris. Is there a longe version of the two sessions? 
It looks to me a lot more controlled and the beginnings of herding compared to the last two vids. 
I am envoious, no cows to herd here. My male would love that (got his couple of chances a while back but can't pick a fight with the farmers here).
Are you having fun Chris


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Rachel Schumacher said:


> Thanks for posting Chris. Is there a longe version of the two sessions?
> It looks to me a lot more controlled and the beginnings of herding compared to the last two vids.
> I am envoious, no cows to herd here. My male would love that (got his couple of chances a while back but can't pick a fight with the farmers here).
> Are you having fun Chris



I do have more but I have to cut it down. A lot of it was just talking with the camera pointed to her feet with turquoise painted toe nails covered in cow shit. Then for a lot of the session she got the record on/off backwards. She would turn off the recording when she thought she was recording and turned it off when she didn't want to record.

The video I have it's mostly the same thing. 

This woman is my neighbor's sister. She told me she doesn't train for sport much less care about it. She said she trains for real world work. She laughed at the other videos and promised to train ME because I'm handler and I already know how to train dogs.


She does breeder cattle herding dogs which are a cross of working border and border/Aus shep. She said before she moved to AZ they had over 350 head of cattle and one of her dogs would do the work of five cowboys.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Chris Michalek said:


> This woman is my neighbor's sister. She told me she doesn't train for sport much less care about it. She said she trains for real world work. She laughed at the other videos and promised to train ME because I'm handler and I already know how to train dogs.



Chris,

Taking lessons from someone that does something, instead of from someone that just teaches about something?
That will never catch on


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Chris,

Get rid of the white one [charlais?] and the black/white one. Too much fight and challenge to the dog's confidence at this point. Also, google Ben Means and theperfectstockdog.com. Disregard the compulsion and watch his line work for developing the flanks, stops, walk up etc. I think both tapes are good--particularly the one where he starts the kelpie on ducks. Due to the rote repetitive boredom of the method in the beginning, it does presuppose a high drive dog. Line work can be really helpful but it can also amp a high prey dog so you have to watch it. Also you have to do it where the dog maintains control of the stock or else they get really frustrated. 

Anyone that keeps stock does real work whether they trial or not. My favorite trial program that best compares to farm work is AHBA [American Herding Breeds Association]. I'm just as precise with the chores as I am with the trial work. I don't expect control in an instinct test. That's what training is for. The dogs did fine. Bob Vest always says that you need 1) interest 2) flanks 3) stop 4) walk-up and 5) recall. Without interest, you don't have the others so you must maintain it at all times. Furthermore, its the dog's job to control the stock. Your training shouldn't interfere that. Select the right stock in the beginning where you don't have to deal with stupid flight and fight and progress the dog so as he can deal with those types in a controlled fashion. Can't overemphasize that the stock MUST match the dog's experience and training level and be appropriate for the lesson you are trying to teach. This is the challenge in training a dog in herding.


Terrasita


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

i'm with T: get rid of that yellow heifer/black/white steer--they're too much for first-time dogs. now watching an experienced dog deal with that nonsense would be sweet


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

here's another video, the end of it is video of the sky or her feet. I was going to edit it but what she was saying was informative so I left it. 

I like this lady but then again, I don't have any perspective. What do you guys think of the stuff she is saying? She told me I was welcome to come anytime in exchange for showing her how to train some of the schH style OB. Easy peasy! She has high drive dogs except I have to get her over the notion that playing tug with them doesn't make aggressive. 


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUBUAbnhnA4


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

So, when ya buying the ranch buddy ??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-hWFsM_3m0&feature=related


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> So, when ya buying the ranch buddy ??
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-hWFsM_3m0&feature=related



maybe in a year. I was just telling my wife that is my deal with Suzuki corp goes through, I want to move from AZ and buy 40+ acres and have a bunch of livestock and a huge dog training area.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Chris Michalek said:


> maybe in a year. I was just telling my wife that is my deal with Suzuki corp goes through, I want to move from AZ and buy 40+ acres and have a bunch of livestock and a huge dog training area.


I hope it works out for you, 40 acres wont feed much.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I hope it works out for you, 40 acres wont feed much.


no but I can store a lot of ****ing twinkies. 

I don't want a ranch or a farm, I just want to be away from idiots. For example, just yesterday morning, I was out training my dog when an asshole showed up to hit golf balls. I was watching him, and he came close to hitting the dog too many times. The tell tale sign that he was trying to hit them was he would look at me right after.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Chris Michalek said:


> The tell tale sign that he was trying to hit them was he would look at me right after.


Honest to God, if I lived in the states and someone really did that to me I would be doing the air guitar equivalent of reaching for my sidearm :lol:

People that golf don't carry guns because it makes their ass look fat.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

The Rottie still looks confident.
The Mali went into avoidance when the white cow challenged it. The barking may have moved it but that was stress comming from the dog. With cattle a dog needs a move it or loose it attitude.
Challenges like that aren't something a green dog needs. In particular a green dog that seems to be avoiding what it can.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> The Rottie still looks confident.
> The Mali went into avoidance when the white cow challenged it. The barking may have moved it but that was stress comming from the dog. With cattle a dog needs a move it or loose it attitude.
> Challenges like that aren't something a green dog needs. In particular a green dog that seems to be avoiding what it can.



yeah I saw that too. He got much more confident at the session went on. 

I just returned from the club and was sure to have an easy going and fun prey session with the mali tonight.


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## Tony McCallum (May 26, 2009)

I am not in favor of using a line on any dog when looking to teach stock work. 
If you have the control you should have ,before you do this work , you can get the dog seeing his job quicker without being hindered and often confused by a line. 
I don’t agree with keeping a dog off the head of troublesome cattle, it builds their confidence and aggression. The rott could have moved the troublesome cattle along , lf he was free moving and not sure of how much room the rope would give him, l am only going by the short vid we see, and know l am at odds with most methods, but l like to let them be able to show me what they have and keep things flowing . The Mal also would not have had trouble l feel, if you had not taken up the slack in the line causing him to pause on his advance. They didn’t seem it would have taken much to move them if it was kept free and active, your doubt flows down the rope , so just get at it and do what you feel will keep a flow and let the dog learn as he goes.
Hard to explain on here, but good job anyway, just offering up some different views.
Have fun Tony


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## Kerry Foose (Feb 20, 2010)

Tony McCallum said:


> I am not in favor of using a line on any dog when looking to teach stock work.
> If you have the control you should have ,before you do this work , you can get the dog seeing his job quicker without being hindered and often confused by a line.
> I don’t agree with keeping a dog off the head of troublesome cattle, it builds their confidence and aggression. The rott could have moved the troublesome cattle along , lf he was free moving and not sure of how much room the rope would give him, l am only going by the short vid we see, and know l am at odds with most methods, but l like to let them be able to show me what they have and keep things flowing . The Mal also would not have had trouble l feel, if you had not taken up the slack in the line causing him to pause on his advance. They didn’t seem it would have taken much to move them if it was kept free and active, your doubt flows down the rope , so just get at it and do what you feel will keep a flow and let the dog learn as he goes.
> Hard to explain on here, but good job anyway, just offering up some different views.
> Have fun Tony



I agree that the tension from your hesitancy/ignorance or fear travels down that line and is a direct conversation to the dog..or horse (where I apply it most). So let go and trust the instinct of the dog more, if allowed he will likely figure out the steers intentions faster than you ever could. Worse thing you can do for the dog while learning - is be in the way.
....best of luck and keep at it \\/


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## Denise Gatlin (Dec 28, 2009)

My first experience with my dog on long line in the round pen with sheep was a total disaster. Too many false corrections when either I or the dog got tangled and the dog kept checking up in a heel position. My dog could not move fluidly with a lead even when it was dropped so when I took it off totally and properly used my stock stick, she worked great. She now reads my body cues and the stock with very little verbal communication from me and she will take on any of the stock that confronts her. Gotta love a tough cattle dog!


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## Guest (Jun 29, 2010)

I like the way your Rotti is working in these first exposures. He seems much more interested and more gifted in stock work than Xico. Good luck with him and I'm looking forward to more vids of your progress. Thanks for posting.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Long line work is an art and can be very useful for teaching certain things. However, its not easy for a beginner and certainly not with cattle. Twice I've gone in with the bouv thinking I was gonna do some work with the line with my driving and unclipped it because what I thought were broke cows weren't. One of the problems at time with the line is the dog turns off because of what the line means---under control. The stock sense it and take advantage. I don't START a dog on cattle because I want him proficient in his flanks and driving first. I also don't drive from the rear or butts. With the dog going directly behind on and the fence he didn't have conrol of them which is why they were milling around back towards them instead of keeping a straight line forward. The dog was out of positin to control. I'm not sure why the trainer wanted them directly behind such a big group. Basically cause a split and turn. The Rottie wanted to cover though. The line can keep them safe but it can also cause problems. You have to decide whether its helpful or not. I'd talk this lady into boarding a good set of goats to start them on and then when they have the basics down, they could go to cattle. But, keep in mind if you work cattle, the dog is gonna get kicked. This is where you decide if the dog has the necessary agility for moving, etc. and whether you can risk injury.

Terrasita


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## Tony McCallum (May 26, 2009)

l agree with T on the goats. My dogs end up exclusively for cattle work, but l make sure they understand their job on goats or sheep first.
You can have more effect on goats and use their movement to help educate the dog.
Cattle can be hard on a dog. It is wise to be aware of this, at a clinic l held recently , had a young dog, that was not as attentive as the handler thought , get under cattle and resulted in a snapped front leg. Happens in an instant.
Tony


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

here's a question re: goats. i have always understood that herding goats with a dog can be about like herding cats with a dog, ie, have FUN chasing them around, but goats don't "herd" worth a crap (vs sheep ((or ducks-??-T?).

now i've never tried herding my dairy goats with a dog--they don't need it--all they need is to know it's milking time, so i hope you guys/gals see where my question comes in. 

are you talking more about meat/hair goats here? and why would they be more amenable to herding than dairy goats? other than the fact they're not handled on a daily basis? and is THAT fact why they're more "herdable"?

or more of a challenge just because they're not handled daily? but less intimidating than a 300# heifer/steer?


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## Annika Friberg (Mar 27, 2009)

The ones we herd - sorry, don't know what kind they are - not dairy goats, I don't think - react more or less like sheep and they are dog broke.

They are less flighty, and they test dogs more than sheep does (they butted my dog's mom - she wasn't assertive enough I guess). It's nothing like herding cats though, they follow the same logic as sheep (apart from the constant climbing up on top of everything) and stick together like sheep.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Hi Ann:

The problem with starting on sheep is that we don't have dogs that were bred and selected for moving off pressure. Too often you have sheep that are too flighty and it just triggers prey drive in the dog. Goats don't deal in panic and flight and more often than not its fight. For my first corgi, I could set 70-100 sheep and they were still flighty with him. I was trying to teach the almighty outrun and its pretty hard to do if the stock always lift/leave early. I also needed to teach him a good walk-up. For me that's literally walk straight up calm as a cucumber to touch noses even with stock that is facing the dog off. The trouble was, one step and the sheep took off. So I bought a set of 5 dairy goats [whethers]. Wallah. They were more fight and weren't going to just run off from a dog. They required controlled push. I did lots of work with the dogs walking up to those noses and holding pressure. All my dogs loved them, including my GSD and bouv. Goats act like they have sense---none of that panic and run crap. 

First you have to dog break the goats. Mine might follow me around for a bannana peel for a bit but I needed a dog to pen them and taken them from pasture to pasture. Once they were broke to the dog, they would fetch and drive. They aren't as strong flocking but a good dog with balance and cover will teach them that. They are bad about sizing up a dog for power. If the dog doesn't have it, they will play games. Ultimately, it got to the point where only my guys and a couple of ACDs could work them and I sold them to an ACD person. For a strong dog, you don't need flighty sheep to start. Goats are closer to cattle in how they react to the dogs. 

If you can't get to hoofed stock and even starting a young puppies, a good set of ducks that flock, fetch and drive are awesome. If you live in the city, they are easy to crate up and take to the park. All the work I do on ducks transfers to the dog's work on other stock. Ducks take finesse and precision and will help teach the dog to rate his stock. 

For my bouv, goats, cattle and ducks are definitely preferred to hair sheep. Hair sheep are just too reactive---or the ones we have for the local trials are. 


Terrasita


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## Kerry Foose (Feb 20, 2010)

ann schnerre said:


> here's a question re: goats. i have always understood that herding goats with a dog can be about like herding cats with a dog, ie, have FUN chasing them around, but goats don't "herd" worth a crap (vs sheep ((or ducks-??-T?).
> 
> now i've never tried herding my dairy goats with a dog--they don't need it--all they need is to know it's milking time, so i hope you guys/gals see where my question comes in.
> 
> ...



The way I see it, the difference is in that goats are "herd" animals whereas sheep are "flock" animals.
Goats are highly social and truly live in a more organized family dynamic and will likely stand and fight...hence the usefulness of their horns. Sheep on the other hand are in it for themselves(self preservation)...run with the flock and stay tight so it doesn't get _me, _the ones on the outside are the ones that get got - so it is safer to be on the "inside" this is why they will bunch up and get sticky. Some breeds are more light and fluffy than others, but most all of them can be trained for conditioned response...ie: dog broke sheep will associate the human with safety so therefor will flock tightly to the human, works great for training. Goats are another story...they are too smart, lol. 
So in that sense, you can see where sheep will stick together like velcro and move as one unit, as opposed to goats will divide and conquer. Goats are more challenging and I feel like it could prepare the dog for cattle a little bit better. But thats just my idea...doesn't make it so for everyone.
Hope this helps with a different perspective...


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Hi Ann:
> 
> The problem with starting on sheep is that we don't have dogs that were bred and selected for moving off pressure. Terrasita


T--would you explaain this more for me? i don't quite get the "moving off pressure" part.

ii have got to get to bed, but i have more thoughts (FWIW, haha) on both your's and kerry's posts. this week is going TOO FAST!!!!!!


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Ann:

I have a rescue border collie. If I'm around stock and I put pressure on him ---step toward him, etc., he is going to go away from me 50 feet or more. If I step toward my typical corgi, GSD and my bouv, they are not going to move. The GSDs generally come toward me if I put body pressure on them. For example, I teach all my dogs to free stack for the show ring. I tap my toe toward theirs and teach them to move a particular foot. The first time I did this with my bouv as a puppy, she came forward and grabbed by shirt. She is the most obvious example of our dogs are bred to move toward pressure and conquer it. 

Keep in mind that that the dog has a flight/fight zone and the stock have a fight/flight zone. We select dogs that have very little if none in the way of flight. Traditional herding training is actually based on some horse training. The only problem is, horses, move off pressure. Our breeds of dogs don't. BCs have a lot of what we call flight. They move off or away from pressure---both the stock's and the handler's. Our dogs don't. If they feel pressure, they instinctively come towards it, not move away from it. Some lines of BCs have been bred/selected to move away from stock pressure. They will control at a distance at the edge of the flight zone. So if you have really flighty sheep, you are better off with a dog that works outside of the sheep's flight zone. Our dogs invade the flight zone thinking to move toward the pressure or the sheep to gain control. Unfortunately, this usually ends up in looking like a chase. A dog that works outside the flight zone and doesn't invade it arguably won't panic the sheep and the sheep won't run. However, good luck getting that same dog that works outside the flight/fight zone to come into that zone. Makes small pen, trailer/chute work etc. impossible with that dog. Years ago I did an article on corgis. To sum up their attitde---"if you run, I can catch you. if you fight, I can win." 

With my first GSD I had a problem with her gripping. Bob Vest was a renowned herding training and the only one that comes to mind that I would call a behaviorist. He figured out real quick that when I put pressure on Asta, she would grip the stock. In a session, I learned how to apply pressure and RELEASE pressure and that was the end of the gripping. Watch Chris' rottie. The trainer is keeping herself just behind his shoulder and she never lets up. She's holding pressure on him. What's his response? The flag is pressure to the Mal. What's his response? Avoidance. She drops the stick/flag and he engages. He is pressure sensitive. Apply too much handler pressure and he shuts down. Now what's interesting about the mal with the stock is the fight zone. Watch with the brown sheep and even some of the cattle video. What's his trigger?

Traditional Herding trainers use body pressure to teach distance. I use clicker training to teach distance. I can say knock that crap off to stop something. But its marker training that teaches them what I want them to do affirmatively--especially for the patternized trial crap.

T


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

How similar are the training programs for real world herding and for competitive herding? Just curious.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Joby,

For me, they are the same. I want clean outruns, flanks, driving/walk-up, etc. regardless of whether I'm doing chores or trialing. The problem I have with trialing and its really with one program is that my dogs aren't obedience placement dogs. I probably created this because from the time I start working them, I instill cover the stock. When you get wild stock at a trial, my dogs kick into cover/control. At the advanced level in one trialing system, this can kill you. Also, I think when you work a chore dog, they work with a certain amount of independence and knowledge of the job. With trials its really about being a robot for the handler and somewhat disregarding instinct and the relationship with the stock. This is only really true for one trialing program and light/fright stock. With the AHBA program, my guys excel because its based on farm chores and a task by task approach instead of what's more a patterned obedience routine. My dogs in heel position can scare the crap out of light/fright sheep. Pretty difficult to maintain that line course if the sheep scatter if the dog takes a paw step. 

In real life the dog has a working relationship with his flock and you don't encounter this run for your lives mentality that you get at trials. With the AHBA and ASCA programs I have an ability to establish a working relationship within the run without necessarily jeopardizing the points so much. 

Terrasita


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Thanks for the response. 
I was thinking of a comparision between someone
who drives cattle and never is going to compete, compared to someone who trains for competitions.


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## Kerry Foose (Feb 20, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> How similar are the training programs for real world herding and for competitive herding? Just curious.


This is especially a relevant topic for me right now as I am thinking of entering my first trial ever this summer. I have corgis because I have a variety of animals that need to be moved and I absolutely love their versatility. So they are 100% chore dogs to this point in their "careers" .
I developed my corgi (s) primarily on my own by _on the job training_ so to speak. So for me the most important facet of teaching anything is clear communication. Firm but fair is my mantra. This is a lifelong commitment so I look at good communication as key to strengthening the relationship. My last corgi almost seemed like he could read my mind! 
Anyway, so we get the job done right now that may not look real pretty or text book and maybe not the way someone else may develop their dog, but it works for us so far at their ages. Now is when I want to take it to the next level and refine our base. 
It will be interesting to see how my lil farm dog does in a trial situation. I'll keep ya'll posted - wish us luck! 8-[

Kerry and the corgi crew
NEPA


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> Thanks for the response.
> I was thinking of a comparision between someone
> who drives cattle and never is going to compete, compared to someone who trains for competitions.



The dog that works and never competes is allowed to bite the stock when needed :-o :lol: . 
In an AHBA trial a dog can get away with a grip IF it's necessary to move the stock. AKC herding and you get a "Thank You" from the judge. That means get out of my ring for having such a mean dog. 
Thunder wants to grip. That's what the GSD uses for stock control on the boundry work. unfortunately most all of the trials are geared for the BC.
He grips without bad intentions. Tonight I gave him a "Platz" command when he was putting to much prressure on the ducks. Well, he started wiggling around a bit and I realized he had "Platzd" right on top of a duck and had it pinned under his ass. If his grips were evil in intent that poor duck's goose would have been cooked. He just looked at it run....8-[....crawl (very slowly) when he lifted his butt.
He's had a duck actually grip HIM on the side. He just looked at it with a "WTF" and shook it off. 
No bad intentions but he still needs to control that if I'm going to compete.


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## Denise Gatlin (Dec 28, 2009)

Good luck, Kerry! I understand where you are coming from as my farm dogs are for function right now but at some point may try our hand at competition. I have attempted AKC in the past with my GSDs but that was a fiasco and very few trials offer the C course which was our focus. Now I have this little ACD who is working out great so we may just give it a try at some point. Keep us posted.


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