# A and B types



## Bernard Rohmer

Hello,

Having read the thread on Dutch vs French Mals, I wonder if you guys know the two different types of Mals. What we call type A and B over here in France. What you call the Dutch type seem to be the B type and what you call the French type, the A type.
We do have both, and they are quite different. Some Breeders look more for B-type (Xjellaba,Cheri-Bibi, Rusky...) others for A-type (Flap, Judex...).
Most mix them. The typical ring dog would be Ab. Typical Campagne/Security dog would be Ba.

Have you heard of that ?


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

No, this is interesting stuff.


----------



## andreas broqvist

Pleas enlighten us.
So the A type " French" dogs are more ring dogs. Less agretion, more sosial ? More "stable" dogs


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Bernard Rohmer said:


> Hello,
> 
> Having read the thread on Dutch vs French Mals, I wonder if you guys know the two different types of Mals. What we call type A and B over here in France. What you call the Dutch type seem to be the B type and what you call the French type, the A type.
> We do have both, and they are quite different. Some Breeders look more for B-type (Xjellaba,Cheri-Bibi, Rusky...) others for A-type (Flap, Judex...).
> Most mix them. The typical ring dog would be Ab. Typical Campagne/Security dog would be Ba.
> 
> Have you heard of that ?



Yes.


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Bernard Rohmer said:


> Hello,
> 
> Having read the thread on Dutch vs French Mals, I wonder if you guys know the two different types of Mals. What we call type A and B over here in France. What you call the Dutch type seem to be the B type and what you call the French type, the A type.
> We do have both, and they are quite different. Some Breeders look more for B-type (Xjellaba,Cheri-Bibi, Rusky...) others for A-type (Flap, Judex...).
> Most mix them. The typical ring dog would be Ab. Typical Campagne/Security dog would be Ba.
> 
> Have you heard of that ?



The first I heard of the Types A & B was in the French book Les Berges Belges in 1990. I'm interested in knowing more.


----------



## Debbie Skinner

I'm interested in hearing more especially how the more modern dogs such Judex (you mention) 

Lobo du Clos de Champcheny
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/10676/Lobo-du-Clos-de-Champcheny

Pirus du Calvaire aux Acacias
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/14401/Pirus-du-Calvaire-aux-Acacias

Mistral du Calvaire aux Acacias
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/55798/Mistral-du-Calvaire-aux-Acacias

Dixie du Balois (female)
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/2315/Dixie-du-Baulois

This book is old.

page 59:

In 20 years the breeding went from 200 to 2500 births. However, the amount of malinois in competition went up 40 times.

The French Breeding between 1970-1993 can be summed up like this:

Arrival of Flap in 1968 utilized by du Mouscronnais & Ventadour which produced Quacha du Mouscronnaise, and Tzar de Ventaour. **Blackie van de Welkom dit Flap, Lob 72382, Alsh 4479 born 1958, vice champ of Belg in 1959 a M. Alphons Schoenmachers.**

In 1972, Rusky - used by Turenfeld and Alsace (Urgo and Vico Turenfeld)

In 1977, origin Xjellaba used in the Ille of France by the breeder de la Noaillerie (Othar de la Noaillerie.

In 1985, origin of G'Bibber oand G'Vitou used by Deux Pottois.

After 10 years using the origins of breeders (bloodlines Flap, Rusky) dogs that were extremely intelligent and easy to handle, the breeders were pressed by the users (competitors/trainers) to forge in dogs more adapted to the hardness of the program of ring and they used en masse the origin of Sirol through Xjellaba and G'Bibber. These dogs were much hard and less conforming to the standard of the race.
...


----------



## Francis Metcalf

Great thread B for bulldozer! So do you consider Kim du Boscaille as type A???? Or just Judex? He seems like a type B to me. Is type A and B determined just by calculating percentage of ancestry that go back to the A/B founders or by actual behavioral characteristics? Actually now that I think about it allot of typical type A's on paper are code for Belgian dogs that are type most likely type B, so it would be foolish to do it just on paper.

Also I don't think all of those Dutch dogs are Type B I think its has a bit to do with their training.

Thanks 

Francis


----------



## Kadi Thingvall

Bernard Rohmer said:


> Have you heard of that ?


Yes, I lurk on some French forums/websites and have heard them talk about type A and B in a lot of the posts/articles. I'd be interested in hearing more though.


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen

no, please tell more!

Othar & G'bibber are ancesters in lot of dutch fci working mal's, also in bloodlines of the knpv mal's.

I know a little of the campangne programme and ring, but i think I understand the difference Ab or Ba dog, but would like to hear more: build, character etc.
The only french mal's i saw (mostly vids) are more the ring type (Ab).


----------



## Debbie Skinner

From www.translate.google.com Worked pretty well this time. 

Type A: chiens types, intelligents, vifs et disponsibles au dressage, mais n' ayant pas toujour l'equilibre ideal, ni la resistance au dressage obligatoire pour le travail de haute competition.

Type A: Dog types, intelligent, lively and Available in dressage, but not having always the ideal balance, or the resistance to mandatory training for work of high competition.

Type B: des chiens puissant, construits en athletes, stable et de temperament combatif, violents dans l'amour de la toile.

Type B: Dogs powerful built athletes, stable and combative temperament, violent in the love of the canvas.

**I think it should be "violent in the love of biting the material".


----------



## Konnie Hein

Do you think "disponsibles" translates better to "biddable?"


----------



## Cesar A. Flores Dueñas

Andre Varlet Book is a basic for us the people in love with malinois

A breeder friend of mine here on Mexico, use a variation of this base for his breeding program

A= Nerves of steel dog, very dominant, lot of drive, non sensible to the enviroment stimulus

B= A high sensible dog to the enviromental stimulus, lots or drive or not 

AB=A good dog for sports because, good nerves, good drive but sensible to stimulus and handling = a good for training dog


He uses for breeding only AxA combinations or the less Ax AB , never uses B dogs or AB x AB


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Konnie Hein said:


> Do you think "disponsibles" translates better to "biddable?"



yes, probably biddable or willing. Direct translation is available. Wish Ron was not working as he would know.


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Cesar A. Flores Dueñas said:


> Andre Varlet Book is a basic for us the people in love with malinois
> 
> A breeder friend of mine here on Mexico, use a variation of this base for his breeding program
> 
> A= Nerves of steel dog, very dominant, lot of drive, non sensible to the enviroment stimulus
> 
> B= A high sensible dog to the enviromental stimulus, lots or drive or not
> 
> AB=A good dog for sports because, good nerves, good drive but sensible to stimulus and handling = a good for training dog
> 
> 
> He uses for breeding only AxA combinations or the less Ax AB , never uses B dogs or AB x AB



You mean visa versa, right? B = hard, bite crazy A = sensitive, trainable


----------



## Cesar A. Flores Dueñas

yes but i like more the A as the Power letter 

could be A; B C or X 

The important thing is the concept lol

ANd i thing you breed the same way ,i like your breeding program


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Cesar A. Flores Dueñas said:


> yes but i like more the A as the Power letter
> 
> could be A; B C or X
> 
> The important thing is the concept lol
> 
> ANd i thing you breed the same way ,i like your breeding program


Thanks. I'm trying to go more toward BBBBBBBBBBBBBBB!!!!! It's hard to find what I like, which is hard! 

I'm trying to see if I can scan a page of the book as text and then have the google translator translate.


----------



## Cesar A. Flores Dueñas

Debbie Skinner said:


> yes, probably biddable or willing. Direct translation is available. Wish Ron was not working as he would know.


disponsibles = Willing


----------



## Debbie Skinner

I like this part (page 43) Andre Varlet "Historique et Elevage du Malinois"

Se Cesar a pu dire que de tous les peoples de la Gaule, les Belges etaient les plus braves, assurement, de toutes les varietes de berger belge, les malinois sont les plus braves.

With Cesar could say that of all the peoples of Gaul, the Belgians were the bravest, assuredly, of all varieties of Belgian Shepherd, Malinois are the bravest.


----------



## Cesar A. Flores Dueñas

This would be my translation

Type A: chiens types, intelligents, vifs et disponsibles au dressage, mais n' ayant pas toujour l'equilibre ideal, ni la resistance au dressage obligatoire pour le travail de haute competition.

Type A: Intelligent, willing to Training, with good balance, without resistence to training , ideal for competition.

Type B: des chiens puissant, construits en athletes, stable et de temperament combatif, violents dans l'amour de la toile.

Type B: High Power dogs, Athletic structure, Stable and fighting temperament, violent temperament and with love for the tug (high prey drive ) *French trainers use this term "Love for the towel" about high prey drive pupies


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Not at all perfect, but gives the idea (page 56-57) regarding breeding A & B and working dogs.

On trouve egalement de grands chiens consanguins sur un type caracteriel: Quacha du Mouscronnais (type A), Xjellaba (type B). 

Lors d'une troisieme ou quatrieme generation, l'eleveur peut au choix continuer en demi-sangs (A + B) ou resserrer vers A ou B.

Il n'existe pas de chien de travail competitif qui ne soit issu d'une de ces combinaisons.

Nous avons en France un cheptel de reproduction en malinois de travail de qualite homogene issu des sangs de Flap et de Rusky, chiens d'origine kennelliste (type genetique A). 

Les apports d'etalons belges de fort caractere sont obligatoires pour le maintien et le developpement de notre cheptel caracteriel. La commission d'elevage, dans ce cas precis d'apport caracteriel, en liaison avec la commission d'utilisation, devant s'assurer : 

- de l'integrite des hanches, pour pallier le danger de l'apport d'un chien dysplasique dans le cheptel

- qu'en cas de defaut morphologique important et hereditaire (connu chez les ascendants ou les collateraux), son emploi ameliorateur soit autorise avec une limite sur l'emploi en consanguinite sur luimeme (deux fois present sur le pedigree); 

- que si ce defaut est visible a la naissance, les chiots porteurs soient elimines.

Ces legares contraintes nous permettent d'utiliser sans trop de risques des chiens d'origines nouvelles ou inconnues.

En conclusion, l'elevage de chiens de travail necessite:

* des lignees distinctes mais complementaires sur les caracteres d'aptitude au travail;

* aucune de ces lignees n'etant parfaite, elles doivent etre mariees en se posant la question suivante: que manque-t-il?

En selection caracterielle, cette famous qualite manquante qui determine la difference entre un chien moyen et un chien de grande classe reste une donnee difficilement quantifiable.

C'est la raison principale pour laquelle des eleveurs competents pour la selection morphologique ont parfois des echecs qu'ils s'expliquent mal quand ils s'interessent au temperament.

Seule une parfaite connaissance des lignees, du travail de competition et de la technique du costume d'attaque permet de s'approcher de la reussite.

Avec ces elements, des conseils d'eleveurs patentes et un peu de chance (qui sera souvent une lice raceuse), on peut voir un jour un nouvel affixe sur les plus hautes marches de la competition sportive. 




There are also large inbred dogs on a temperamental type: Quacha of Mouscron (type A), Xjellaba (type B). 

In a third or fourth generation, the breeder can either continue with half-bloods (A + B) or closer to A or B. 

There is no competitive working dog that originates from one of these combinations. 

We have in France a herd of breeding malinois working uniform quality from the blood of Flap and Rusky, dog kennels origin (genetic type A). 

The contributions of etalons Belgian strong character are required for the maintenance and development of our livestock temperamental. The Committee of livestock, in this case capital temperamental, in conjunction with the utilization fee, to ensure: 

- The integrity of the hips to alleviate the danger of providing a dysplastic dog in the herd 

- In case of default important morphological and hereditary (known in ascending or collateral), its use improvement is allowed with a limit on employment inbreeding on luimeme (twice present in the pedigree); 

- If such default is visible at birth, pups are carriers eliminated. 

Legare These constraints allow us to use without too much risk dogs from new or unknown origin. 

In conclusion, the kennel of working dogs necessity: 

* LINES distinct but complementary characters on fitness for work; 
* None of these lines are perfect, they must be married by posing the following question: what is missing there?

In selection of character, the famous missing quality that determines the difference between a dog and a dog means high class remains an easily quantifiable.

This is the main reason for breeders accoutrement for the morphological selection of chess has sometimes hurt when they explained they are interested in temperament. *** this one needs work***

Only a thorough knowledge of bloodlines, labor competition and technology Costume attack allows to approach success.

With these elements, boards of breeders patent and a little luck (which is often an arena raceuse), we can one day see a new kennel name on the top steps of the athletic competition.


----------



## Cesar A. Flores Dueñas

Nice


.


----------



## Christopher Jones

This is a very interesting thread, thx to the poster for putting it up. I like the system of A & B types, makes it very simple for people to understand and to "lable" a breeding program or dogs.
I would agree that the Unregistered KNPV dogs do fall alot into the B type. I would say that IPO Malis in the most part tend to be Ab in type from what I have seen. 
Hey, its a very simple system. Me likes......
Anymore information people have on it would love to read it.


----------



## Max Orsi

Description of dog of type "A" and "B" by Eric cavaillie, an expert on working malinois bloodlines, owner of cami du catheric kennel in france.

Courant de Sang A:chien dans le type,réactif et disponible à l'éducation,pouvant être sensible sur l'inconnu(humain et milieux),manquant de présence sur un dressage poussé et pointilleux mais souvent tonique et joueur.

Courant de Sang B:chien puissant,athlétique,trés équilibré avec un caractère combatif dans le dressage,souvent intransigeant dans le mordant.

Type A: Reactive dogs, available to work with the handler, sometimes sensitive to the unknown human and environmetal. handler sensitive but lots of play drive.

Type B:Strong Dogs, athetics, very confident with a combtive temperamet to training often inflexible during bitework.

Those are the opposite types, there are also combinationss of the two on various degree from "AB",
"Ab", "BA" and "Ba".

It is educational to visit Eric website, a lot of usefull information but all in french http://www.camidecatheric.org/


----------



## melissa mims

If you have an updated browser, at the top of the page is a dropdown labeled 'page'. Click on 'Google Translate', and a rough translation will be done for the page.
copy to Word, and print if you like.
Faster than learning French, lol.


----------



## andreas broqvist

Sorry but to me it sounds kind of stupid, maby I mist a part of it?

Unlike to unlike breedings to produce hybreeds of the to that is a medium that thye are seeking.
That is like breeding 101 that you shuld trye to get away from.

If you want Ab dogs you breed Ab to Ab ore linebreed AB to AA BB untill you gett your Ab dogs.

You breed like to like and maby somtiomes Like to unlike becasu of a trait you want to get.

You do not ceep a yard of 2 types of Unlike so that you can cross them.

The hole thing sounds crazy and usless. 
Becaus of the posetive feedback the thing has gooten in this thread I must have mist somthing.

Pleas inlinghten me. Whats the good thing about this?


----------



## Debbie Skinner

andreas broqvist said:


> Sorry but to me it sounds kind of stupid, maby I mist a part of it?
> 
> Unlike to unlike breedings to produce hybreeds of the to that is a medium that thye are seeking.
> That is like breeding 101 that you shuld trye to get away from.
> 
> If you want Ab dogs you breed Ab to Ab ore linebreed AB to AA BB untill you gett your Ab dogs.
> 
> You breed like to like and maby somtiomes Like to unlike becasu of a trait you want to get.
> 
> You do not keep a yard of 2 types of Unlike so that you can cross them.
> 
> The hole thing sounds crazy and usless.
> Becaus of the posetive feedback the thing has gooten in this thread I must have mist somthing.
> 
> Pleas inlinghten me. Whats the good thing about this?


It's a way to label character/drives of dogs w/o going into bloodlines. No one keeps a yard of 2 types. However, if someone is breeding very hard, strong dogs and their line gets too independent for example they may choose to out-cross to a more biddable, trainable, sporty dog from an "A" line. Also, in France when their dogs get too "A" type they out-cross to lines that are more "B". 

Yes, there are parts missing in the discussion. Only a small section of the book has been translated as it's difficult to type it in and I couldn't figure out how to scan it and then translate it. Glad to hear the A & B is on a web site as it's easier to translate then. The A and B concept is not new, however for someone first hearing about it on this thread it's possible there isn't enough information given here to fully understand it. 

Maybe the original poster from France can fill in the blanks.


----------



## andreas broqvist

Yes that mutsh I get. But from this thread the label downt even work out.
If you have a type B dog. But its not Type B its a dog that is kind of B. Its Ba, but to mutsh B.
So the you wuld cros it with an A dog. A is to mutsh you do not want A, you want maby Ab.
Then you cros you Ba dog with Ab and it will "in theroy" make BA pups. 

It dosent claryfie anyting becasu the extream isent used. you use Ab ore Ba ore somthing enbetween. But then its al up to the Breeder/beholder to say if the dog is Ba BA ore maby in his eyes B.

So why label it liek this anyways if ther isent a clearer picture what a B is. DO they have a test.
A dog the is B is liek this, a dog that is A is like this.

To me it sounds like a B dog can be everyting from a ston hard nut dog that you cant use to anything ta a pretty good Police/sport dog.


----------



## andreas broqvist

More ore less "A" Hard dogs "B" Week dogs.
The thing about atletic dogs I downt get at al, Are the week dogs also week body dogs that cant jump?
Becasu with altletic dog they also describes hevyer bigger dogs, it dosent matsh up.


----------



## Cesar A. Flores Dueñas

It is like algebra , some people just dont get it i think

For me is very clear

and i know at least 3 breeders working that way and getting the kind of dogs they want 

Nacho Sainz in Mexico, Debbie skinner in USA and Jean Marie lercef on France this last one more on the AB side because he is breeding for RIng, Sport dogs. And i can keep the list goin.

I like this kind of breeders because they dont just mix dogs, they breed with a pourpouse on mind, and for that you need a methodology and the A B thing is an example of that. You cant spect to get good dogs by luck (this some times happens).

of course on breeding is not the only thing they care about, we already hear debbie skinner worried about certain line breeds of dogs.

At the end seems to be an art.


----------



## Debbie Skinner

andreas broqvist said:


> Yes that mutsh I get. But from this thread the label downt even work out.
> If you have a type B dog. But its not Type B its a dog that is kind of B. Its Ba, but to mutsh B.
> So the you wuld cros it with an A dog. A is to mutsh you do not want A, you want maby Ab.
> Then you cros you Ba dog with Ab and it will "in theroy" make BA pups.
> 
> It dosent claryfie anyting becasu the extream isent used. you use Ab ore Ba ore somthing enbetween. But then its al up to the Breeder/beholder to say if the dog is Ba BA ore maby in his eyes B.
> 
> So why label it liek this anyways if ther isent a clearer picture what a B is. DO they have a test.
> A dog the is B is liek this, a dog that is A is like this.
> 
> To me it sounds like a B dog can be everyting from a ston hard nut dog that you cant use to anything ta a pretty good Police/sport dog.


Depends on the breeder's goals (what they like is what they breed) the extremes are used. A B-type dog could be what you say "those different things" depending on whose hands it's in. Different trainers can handle different personality extremes. 

The books is talking about breeders goals in France to produce dogs that excel in French Ring Sport. This isn't the goal of every breeder in France or elsewhere.

One would not breed on pedigree alone, but take into consideration the personalities of the females and males along with pedigree and structure of course. The personality one likes in a dog probably depends a lot on their personality and training goals.


----------



## andreas broqvist

Cesar. Good for you, I like genetics and breding therys...

Yes debbie. But why use extrems. Breeding extrems is not going to get you any consistensy.

In that I do not mean that you shuldent breed extream AB dogs. But not use a Extream A dog to a extream B dog becasu al you gett is hybreeds. You try to use AB dogs to AB dog to get consistensy. Then shore use a B dog onec in a while to that AB dog to get more of what you want.

But I do not se the big think. Its just a lable and its breeding as usal. Nothing difrent than me Liking prety hard dogs with a loot of will to pleas. an Ba dog in you leters. I wulnd NEVER cross a dog with what you cal an A dog. A week, soft, wedy dog. Why wuld I. That type is to me totely usles. Everyting less then AB sems just a waste of place. Why wuld you want a dog like that? Why wuld the list a dog like that. AB shuld be the start of the list if they do breedings with the dog.

THe list shuld only have AB BA, if you mix them you wil get ABBA  Sweden will sing for you then


----------



## Debbie Skinner

andreas broqvist said:


> Cesar. Good for you, I like genetics and breding therys...
> 
> Yes debbie. But why use extrems. Breeding extrems is not going to get you any consistensy.
> 
> In that I do not mean that you shuldent breed extream AB dogs. But not use a Extream A dog to a extream B dog becasu al you gett is hybreeds. You try to use AB dogs to AB dog to get consistensy. Then shore use a B dog onec in a while to that AB dog to get more of what you want.
> 
> But I do not se the big think. Its just a lable and its breeding as usal. Nothing difrent than me Liking prety hard dogs with a loot of will to pleas. an Ba dog in you leters. I wulnd NEVER cross a dog with what you cal an A dog. A week, soft, wedy dog. Why wuld I. That type is to me totely usles. Everyting less then AB sems just a waste of place. Why wuld you want a dog like that? Why wuld the list a dog like that. AB shuld be the start of the list if they do breedings with the dog.
> 
> THe list shuld only have AB BA, if you mix them you wil get ABBA  Sweden will sing for you then



I said I like extreme dogs (over the top) and not that I breed the two extreme temperament types together. I think it's all lost in translation with you. I guess you still don't get it. ](*,)

It's up to the individual breeder to breed the kinds of dogs he/she likes.


----------



## andreas broqvist

He he yes Debbie. I get that to. As i wrote, Its ok to use and like overthetop dogs. If that is what you like you breed that  Its what I like to.

I just downt se the big thing with sorting them into type A and type B becasu its not the types used for breding anyways. But maby as you say I miss somthing her.

Lets leve it 
Have a nice day.


----------



## Debbie Skinner

andreas broqvist said:


> But I do not se the big think. Its just a lable and its breeding as usal. Nothing difrent than me Liking prety hard dogs with a loot of will to pleas. an Ba dog in you leters. I wulnd NEVER cross a dog with what you cal an A dog. A week, soft, wedy dog. Why wuld I. That type is to me totely usles. Everyting less then AB sems just a waste of place. Why wuld you want a dog like that? Why wuld the list a dog like that. AB shuld be the start of the list if they do breedings with the dog.
> 
> THe list shuld only have AB BA, if you mix them you wil get ABBA  Sweden will sing for you then


BTW, you are suggesting that a type A = weak, which is a misunderstanding on your part. The book is not saying that A and B dogs are mentally unstable, pet, or cull dogs. 

GIVEN: Type A & Type B --> It's a way to describe different types of temperaments in working dogs being considered in a working dog breeding program. 

No one is suggesting to breed weak dogs nor suggesting to breed rank dogs. These are extreme temperament flaws and undesirable. The type B dog should not have the temperament of a leopard (unpredictable, independent killer) and a Type A dog should not have a temperament of a sheep!


----------



## Debbie Skinner

andreas broqvist said:


> He he yes Debbie. I get that to. As i wrote, Its ok to use and like overthetop dogs. If that is what you like you breed that  Its what I like to.
> 
> I just downt se the big thing with sorting them into type A and type B becasu its not the types used for breding anyways. But maby as you say I miss somthing her.
> 
> Lets leve it
> Have a nice day.


I hope that more of the book gets translated. For sure if I'm breeding dogs that are becoming too hard headed and uncontrollable (not listening and only thinking bite, bite, bite), I need to put more biddability and willingness in the mix. Does this make sense? Not talking big temperament faults, but more like fine tuning. It's hard to explain completely in an email. 

You can leave it if you want, but I think it's interesting to talk about. :grin:

Again, hope someone that writes well in French and English can help explain better.


----------



## andreas broqvist

Yes and then you have kind of an B dog right. To make them more tranibel you will ad BA to the mix. Maby even AB but not A. Then you have your B to Ba dogs that you havenmt changed mutsh, you have what you like and what you breed fore, But you have made them more easyle traind.

you will not ad A dogs becasu then you might aswell only get dogs that are AB and hevyer on the A side. 

So do you get wher im going


----------



## Debbie Skinner

andreas broqvist said:


> Yes and then you have kind of an B dog right. To make them more tranibel you will ad BA to the mix. Maby even AB but not A. Then you have your B to Ba dogs that you havenmt changed mutsh, you have what you like and what you breed fore, But you have made them more easyle traind.
> 
> you will not ad A dogs becasu then you might aswell only get dogs that are AB and hevyer on the A side.
> 
> So do you get wher im going


Yes, I understand what you are saying. 

I personally like the B type dog and I don't think they are too hard to train and live with, but people looking for a dog for high scores probably like something different. It is subjective too. What is hard? What is trainable? What is sensitive?


----------



## Francis Metcalf

Andreas,

I like your ABBA theory! More dogs should be bred to swedish disco standards. 

You should mabye re think your understanding of A and B as they relate to Bulldogs vs Malinois.

For Malinois who tend to be on the A side anyway you need to always make sure the dogs don't get too soft so you go B.

For Bulldogs who tend to be on the B side you need to stear towards the A side, for more athletic, quicker smarter more biddable. 

At least this is how I look at it!

F


----------



## Cesar A. Flores Dueñas

I have a more clear example of that

I am goin to use a USA example 

Blitz and Bexter Ombres Valereux

A good example for me that the Methodology on breeding works if you can Read a GOOD dog and with the characteristics to be a good producer also.

I have other examples here on Mexico but probably you dont know Dogs on Mexico

By the way as all the topics on a forum noone is trying to convince the other one, we are just sharing information on dogs, and i think that is the goal of a forum, people takes and uses what works for them , thats all.


----------



## Don Turnipseed

I see what Andreas is getting at...I think. What Debbie said about adding smaller doses of say and Ba to a B makes more sense from a breeders standpoint than jumping off the cliff and crossing the two extremes A and B. I think any decent breeder that has a specific goal has been doing this same thing for 100's of years anyway......they just don't get over industrious and try to classify every dog on paper. They see a dog they produced, it fits as a B in their head....or maybe as they watch it, it may be an A type and they move forward with their program accordingly......this has been a mental process for years. Now everyone is blown away by the brilliance because someone put it on paper. Example: Let's say I have 6 dogs that impress the hell out of me.....and another six that don't....all dogs in each group are a specific type. One type I like, the other I don't. Suddenly having an epipheny and calling one group an A and the other B doesn't change anything.


----------



## andreas broqvist

Don. EXACTLY  Yo da man 

Its like always.
you breed:
Like To like to get konsistensy and to know what you get.
Like to Unlike to ad somthing, Take a steep forward
Unlike To Unlike in the hopes of geting in the middle, a newbee breeder falt that almost always NOT get what you want, and if it does it dosent produce it anyways..


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Andreas, let's go back to my example of the six dogs I truly like and the six I don't like at all. If I really admire the six but need a bit better handling out of them, why would I take a dog out of the group I don't like and breed that extreme in to correct the problem.

Let's do this another way because I think we like the same type of dog. I breed for, and get, totally offensive dogs. It would be very hard to put them in defense. Call them a type B. It would make absolutely no sense to try and correct a problem by breeding to a type A that only works in defense. I would just as likely lose some of what I liked in the B group. so now I would have two groups I didn't like. I don't care for a dog that depends on defense because I see that as fear motivated. Don't want no type A's screwing up my dogs.LOL


----------



## Cesar A. Flores Dueñas

so if we change 

A and B for

i unlike and i like

Is not useless anymore? 

i knew it!


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Cesar A. Flores Dueñas said:


> so if we change
> 
> A and B for
> 
> i unlike and i like
> 
> Is not useless anymore?
> 
> i knew it!


It isn't useless to anyone that has never bred a line of dogs Cesar. It may actually help them understand a few things. Any breeder that has bred more than a few dogs does all this categorizing in his head. He knows what he likes and what he doesn't like. He also doesn't breed to dogs he doesn't like to correct anything. He will pick a dog that is basically a B but show the traits he wants as an a...or.... a Ba. Never an A.....unless he doesn't like any of them and is just mixing them up to start over.


----------



## andreas broqvist

It is never usles, I have never stated that its usles. I just say that its nothing new. Ist Breeding 101.
So therfor I do not get why peoepl think its so briliant, new and amazing. Its what every one starting to breed dosg shuld know from the get go.

Exactly as don sed.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

So from what I thought the guy meant, one catagory was filled with dogs that love to bite and it is the end all for them. Obedience and the like are tolerated. Very strong dogs.

The other catagory was filled with dogs that like to please the handler, and like to bite but are not off the charts extreme in the bite.

The idea, is to identify which dogs are which and mix the two in varying degrees to get a dog that is stronger in the bite, but also likes to please the handler.

It is not a matter of breeding to a dog that you don't like, or did I miss something ??

I think this is a good thread, although it would be cool to see what dogs currently the OP would put into which catagory. Some of the dog mentioned have been dead a while. 

Information about the current dogs out there working would be of great help to a lot of people. I like to hear about Judex, and G'Bibber, and G'Vitou, but they are not even close to current dogs.

That would be a good topic for discussion


----------



## Cesar A. Flores Dueñas

andreas broqvist said:


> It is never usles, I have never stated that its usles. I just say that its nothing new. Ist Breeding 101.
> So therfor I do not get why peoepl think its so briliant, new and amazing. Its what every one starting to breed dosg shuld know from the get go.
> 
> Exactly as don sed.


 
One Person started this topic and the rest of us just discuss this topic

Nothing new over the sun Andreas , the book we were talking about is at least 19 years old, and this basis of breeding are also older on france as an example.

So i dont get your point, who said this is new, whom said is brilliant and amazing? 

On my side i made enphasis on people using that resources, because this breeding theory sounds simple and old but most of the people is just mating dogs and not really BREEDING with real methodology.


----------



## Cesar A. Flores Dueñas

andreas broqvist said:


> Sorry but to me it sounds kind of stupid, maby I mist a part of it?
> 
> 
> The hole thing sounds crazy and usless.
> Becaus of the posetive feedback the thing has gooten in this thread I must have mist somthing.
> 
> Pleas inlinghten me. Whats the good thing about this?


I read Right, Stupid and Useless


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Cesar A. Flores Dueñas said:


> One Person started this topic and the rest of us just discuss this topic
> 
> On my side i made enphasis on people using that resources, because this breeding theory sounds simple and old but most of the people is just mating dogs and not really BREEDING with real methodology.


Also, I was asking the man in France that began the topic, his opinion of some dogs that I know by reputation only that are used in France, but haven't met how he would classify them. I know how others have described them to me, but I like to hear from people that have met and seen dogs work their opinions.


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> So from what I thought the guy meant, one catagory was filled with dogs that love to bite and it is the end all for them. Obedience and the like are tolerated. Very strong dogs.
> 
> The other catagory was filled with dogs that like to please the handler, and like to bite but are not off the charts extreme in the bite.
> 
> The idea, is to identify which dogs are which and mix the two in varying degrees to get a dog that is stronger in the bite, but also likes to please the handler.
> 
> It is not a matter of breeding to a dog that you don't like, or did I miss something ??
> 
> I think this is a good thread, although it would be cool to see what dogs currently the OP would put into which catagory. Some of the dog mentioned have been dead a while.
> 
> Information about the current dogs out there working would be of great help to a lot of people. I like to hear about Judex, and G'Bibber, and G'Vitou, but they are not even close to current dogs.
> 
> That would be a good topic for discussion


You got it I think. Yes, most of us are not talking about breeding dogs we don't like. We are identifying the qualities and classifying the "good breeding/working dogs" in 2 types/groups.

I was curious about some of the Judex progeny that I haven't met. I still would like to know more about these dogs...say some of the more famous French dogs...the Js, Ls, Ms, etc. (names starting with that is).


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Cesar A. Flores Dueñas said:


> so if we change
> 
> A and B for
> 
> i unlike and i like
> 
> Is not useless anymore?
> 
> i knew it!


:-D:-D Yes, we can quickly make this a totally useless conversation. If no one understands that A and B are both dogs to be considered in breeding and not culls/crap then there can be no conversation! ](*,)


----------



## Cesar A. Flores Dueñas

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> So from what I thought the guy meant, one catagory was filled with dogs that love to bite and it is the end all for them. Obedience and the like are tolerated. Very strong dogs.
> 
> The other catagory was filled with dogs that like to please the handler, and like to bite but are not off the charts extreme in the bite.
> 
> The idea, is to identify which dogs are which and mix the two in varying degrees to get a dog that is stronger in the bite, but also likes to please the handler.
> 
> It is not a matter of breeding to a dog that you don't like, or did I miss something ??
> 
> I think this is a good thread, although it would be cool to see what dogs currently the OP would put into which catagory. Some of the dog mentioned have been dead a while.
> 
> Information about the current dogs out there working would be of great help to a lot of people. I like to hear about Judex, and G'Bibber, and G'Vitou, but they are not even close to current dogs.
> 
> That would be a good topic for discussion


Jeff this are 2 links of Jean M Lercef Kennel for me the most important breeder of french ring malinois worldwide.

Here he explains some selection information and on the other link he also make comments on his current litters and the reason he make that breeding with genetic implications.

This is on french but you can translate this with google or babel fish i guess

I hope this will be useful for you

http://ljm20081.free.fr/calvaire/texte/selection.htm

http://ljm20081.free.fr/calvaire/texte/porteesparties.htm


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Debbie Skinner said:


> :-D:-D Yes, we can quickly make this a totally useless conversation. If no one understands that A and B are both dogs to be considered in breeding and not culls/crap then there can be no conversation! ](*,)


This is in answer to both Jeff and Debbie. Speaking for myself, when I say I don't like a dog, it means I don't like the type ar traits. If I like the B type, it would be like shooting myself in the foot to breed to an A type for something such as handling quality when there are Ba dogs around that will ensure I don't lose the B qualities. I am not saying the A types are not what some may desire....just not my cup of tea.


----------



## Curtis McHail

I like harder dogs...with them comes a dog that isn't easy to handle. There is a price to everything in life. I want a serious, independent dog...the price to that is a dog that isn't so forgiving to mistakes on your part.


----------



## Gerry Grimwood

Curtis McHail said:


> I like harder dogs...with them comes a dog that isn't easy to handle. There is a price to everything in life. I want a serious, independent dog...the price to that is a dog that isn't so forgiving to mistakes on your part.


I'm not a mind reader, but that sounds like you've never been head butted in the ball sack before.


----------



## Konnie Hein

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I think this is a good thread, although it would be cool to see what dogs currently the OP would put into which catagory. Some of the dog mentioned have been dead a while.
> 
> Information about the current dogs out there working would be of great help to a lot of people. I like to hear about Judex, and G'Bibber, and G'Vitou, but they are not even close to current dogs.
> 
> That would be a good topic for discussion


Ditto! And, if the OP never comes back, maybe it would be good for the experienced breeders here to chime in with what they think?


----------



## Curtis McHail

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I'm not a mind reader, but that sounds like you've never been head butted in the ball sack before.


That's because I protect the family jewels! LOL! Now I'm paranoid...-invests in a sports cup-


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: This is in answer to both Jeff and Debbie. Speaking for myself, when I say I don't like a dog, it means I don't like the type ar traits. If I like the B type, it would be like shooting myself in the foot to breed to an A type for something such as handling quality when there are Ba dogs around that will ensure I don't lose the B qualities. I am not saying the A types are not what some may desire....just not my cup of tea.


One of the more interesting things about being able to talk to you is that you are not one of the people that hold back. I hate people like that. One of the most interesting things you did was when you bred two socially weak dogs and produced a bunch of outgoing little pups.

I know that it doesn't really pertain to a lot of what they are saying here, as you are basically playing football, and they are playing baseball. The way that they breed is very different from the way you breed.

Choosing who to breed to when you are on your 10th generation is a hell of a lot easier than what most people do, which is get two dogs they like and breed them. At that point, they need this A B crap. LOL If they were on their 10th generation, they wouldn't need it either.


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> One of the more interesting things about being able to talk to you is that you are not one of the people that hold back. I hate people like that. One of the most interesting things you did was when you bred two socially weak dogs and produced a bunch of outgoing little pups.


Well that's not entirely true Jeff. I hold a lot of things back because I don't want to get in anyones bad graces.



Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I know that it doesn't really pertain to a lot of what they are saying here, as you are basically playing football, and they are playing baseball. The way that they breed is very different from the way you breed.


Happens a lot Jeff. When you have a group of dogs close enough that any pup in the litter will give much the same results, one will obviously have a totally different perspective than those that say breed to titles thinking they are going to get more than a few random dogs that are a cut above. You will never get consistency that way....at least not in the average persons lifetime. Andreas keeps hammering about consistency. I love it and he is the only one I have see that realise that successful breeding is not about producing a good dog once in a while because of the odds. The whole point to breeding is to achieve that elusive "consistency". If you can't do it, your a hobby breeder.



Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Choosing who to breed to when you are on your 10th generation is a hell of a lot easier than what most people do, which is get two dogs they like and breed them. At that point, they need this A B crap. LOL If they were on their 10th generation, they wouldn't need it either.


Until they need an outcross for new blood. The last thing you want is a type that is not representavie of what your dog is.


----------



## David Ruby

Debbie Skinner said:


> Thanks. I'm trying to go more toward BBBBBBBBBBBBBBB!!!!! It's hard to find what I like, which is hard!


If you will field a question from the inexperienced, at which point, if ever, do you find that breeding toward B leaves you with _too_ noncompliant a dog or one that starts to lose focus or the ability to think before they act? Or another way, do you find very strong type-B dogs and handler compliance & eagerness to work with the handler (as opposed to telling you to F-off and do whatever they want) mutually exclusive, or is it simply just your typical hard/stubborn dog that requires more work to get their respect? Or alternately, do you find super resilient type-A dogs to be sort of an oxymoron?



Francis Metcalf said:


> Andreas,
> 
> I like your ABBA theory! More dogs should be bred to swedish disco standards.
> 
> You should mabye re think your understanding of A and B as they relate to Bulldogs vs Malinois.
> 
> For Malinois who tend to be on the A side anyway you need to always make sure the dogs don't get too soft so you go B.
> 
> For Bulldogs who tend to be on the B side you need to stear towards the A side, for more athletic, quicker smarter more biddable.
> 
> At least this is how I look at it!
> 
> F


That makes sense. However I see the Bulldogs (at least the ones I've been around) being more biddable or softer with their handlers than some of the Herders I've seen. It's a gross over-generalization, and maybe not part of the type-A/type-B scale being discussed. Still, I see at least some Bulldogs as being resilient and fitting into the B side of things in some ways while being very much in the type A in terms of wanting to work for the owner with some being soft toward the owner but pretty tough toward outside stimuli. I bring that up not because I think I'm right so much as I'm curious if others have seen the same thing a/o have any thoughts about it, or if it's merely my misconceptions a/o to see where I'm wrong.

-Cheers


----------



## Debbie Skinner

David Ruby said:


> If you will field a question from the inexperienced, at which point, if ever, do you find that breeding toward B leaves you with _too_ noncompliant a dog or one that starts to lose focus or the ability to think before they act? Or another way, do you find very strong type-B dogs and handler compliance & eagerness to work with the handler (as opposed to telling you to F-off and do whatever they want) mutually exclusive, or is it simply just your typical hard/stubborn dog that requires more work to get their respect? Or alternately, do you find super resilient type-A dogs to be sort of an oxymoron?.............Cheers


Yes, Breeding too much Type B can lead to dogs that are bite crazy and tune out the owner i.e. difficult to control. It's always a balancing act when breeding for working dogs (duel type dogs, sport dogs, etc.) to have a strong dog that will listen to you when in drive. A Type is not defined as super-resilient. A type is lacking that. That would be a mix of the types...a high drive, strong dog that listens well to the owner and is easy to train (very biddable, willing).

I was sort of joking when I said the "BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB type" comment! \\/


----------

