# Military / LE K-9 seminar Oct 11-15



## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Logan Haus Kennels will be hosting a 5 day K-9 training seminar from October 11-15th 2010.

Wayne Dodge and myself have put this training semiar together. We have gathered some very reputable instructors that are really subject matter experts in their field.
This course will cover 4 different areas. 
1) Tactical shooting. the shooting course will also cover close range handgun (7-50 yards) and midrange rifle ( 100-300 yards). The shooting instructors will be Pat Goodale from www.pgpft.com and myself http://www.loganhauskennels.com/shooting

2) Tactical Tracking and man trailing with and without a dog taught by Mike Pennington of www.stormdogtraining.com 

3) Scent detection taught by Don Blair of US Customs. Don is one of the most qualified training instructors for US Customs.

4) K-9 Decoy school taught by Franco Angelini of http://www.castlek9.com/k9-decoy-school.shtml

In these four areas I see much room for improvement with most K-9 teams that we train with all over the country. So Wayne and I have put this together to try to help with some of the problem areas in Police K-9 work.
We are working on a price for the seminar at this time, but it will not be terribly expensive for a week of great training. I am trying to get the price down to aroud $500-$600 per team with a limit of 20 teams for the class. This is a MIlitary and LE only seminar.
I will put out a flyer with more information on this semiar soon.

We are still working on a KNPV / sport seminar with Gerben in the June or July timeframe that will be open for everyone. The dates for that seminar will be determined by Gerben so if you are interested in that maybe you can e mail him and push him to give me a date!! :-D


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

get a different decoy instructor. THat one is for retards.


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## kevin holford (Apr 11, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> get a different decoy instructor. THat one is for retards.


 Mike, if your looking for options, try Tim at Muddy River K9 Academy.


Jeff's opinion is a very common opinion here in PA; I don't personaly know the guy, just what I've heard.


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

Hopefully the Gerben one gets pushed back, will be too hot to fly (for me) then


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Interesting choice for the decoy seminar. With the dogs you sell I think he might be a little over the top. You would do a bigger favor to the LEO world if you brought over Ben Holster for the decoy seminar. Just my two cents.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Seriously, if you think that guy is respected, someone sold you a line of bullshit. I can show you how to decoy if that is all you could come up with. At least that way you can learn how to do it correctly. I cannot believe that people would pay for that silly shit.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Seriously, if you think that guy is respected, someone sold you a line of bullshit. I can show you how to decoy if that is all you could come up with. At least that way you can learn how to do it correctly. I cannot believe that people would pay for that silly shit.


Wayne Dodge will be there as well as myself and maybe even Gerben too. So we will not let anything stupid take place. I have seen Franco work at several places in the past where I have been for other business and I think that 90% of the LE World can learn from him. Most of the LE decoys that I see have no clue at all even where to begin beyond putting on a suit, Franco can help them and despite the people who may not like him, believe me there is a big following of people who do like him.
I could have gotten Armin Winkler, Gerben Kamphuis, James Laney, Doug Wendling, Wayne Dodge, just to name a few to do the decoy portion. The reason I chose Franco is because I already have 50% of the seats filled and the "good DOD guys" who are comming ask for Franco specifically. 
It is a 5 day seminar, Franco will be here for one day. That leaves 4 other days for Wayne and myself and maybe some of the other people who I mentioned to help with the decoy work. Like every seminar, you can retain what you like, and dump what you did not like. I think the shooting, tracking, and detection classes alone will be worth the trip up here anyway. That is the real meat and potatoes of everyday K-9 work.
We will have one day filled with scenario training in all of these areas.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

At least you will have 4 days to reteach them to do it right.


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## Tim Bartlett (May 21, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Seriously, if you think that guy is respected, someone sold you a line of bullshit. I can show you how to decoy if that is all you could come up with. At least that way you can learn how to do it correctly. I cannot believe that people would pay for that silly shit.



After watching that video, all I can say is WOW!!! :-&

I have never even heard of that guy, but that was definately some silly stuff. If that is the way LE decoys are trained, then I definately can see where the problems start.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Tim Bartlett said:


> After watching that video, all I can say is WOW!!! :-&
> 
> I have never even heard of that guy, but that was definately some silly stuff. If that is the way LE decoys are trained, then I definately can see where the problems start.


Tim, I know you are a great decoy. But I have been to Lackland dozens of times over the past 10 years and 99% of the "decoys" I have seen there were terrible at best. I see the same thing in the LE world as well. Franco can teach the basic skills for new decoys to improve their current abilities by a lot.
I am surprised you have never heard of him though. He does a lot of the tier one DOD decoy training, as well as teaching classes for the Blackwater K-9 and Triple Canopy guys.
Dont let two videos dictate your opinion of him as a decoy. I have seen many decoys that were much worse for sure.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Our agency hosted a decoy seminar with Franco a few months ago. I only went part of one day; that part was primarily teaching proper equipment fitting and use, as well as movement drills. Our guys didn't retain a whole lot..not Franco's fault of course. Wish I went to the whole thing so as to form an opinion.


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## Tim Bartlett (May 21, 2007)

mike suttle said:


> Tim, I know you are a great decoy. But I have been to Lackland dozens of times over the past 10 years and 99% of the "decoys" I have seen there were terrible at best. I see the same thing in the LE world as well. Franco can teach the basic skills for new decoys to improve their current abilities by a lot.
> I am surprised you have never heard of him though. He does a lot of the tier one DOD decoy training, as well as teaching classes for the Blackwater K-9 and Triple Canopy guys.
> Dont let two videos dictate your opinion of him as a decoy. I have seen many decoys that were much worse for sure.


I am in no way claiming that the decoys at Lackland or myself are great. I am just saying that when I see a couple videos from the person that is promoting himself, I would expect to see some good stuff. The things that he was doing was unnecessary, potential dangerous to the dog and pointless.


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## Tim Bartlett (May 21, 2007)

mike suttle said:


> I am surprised you have never heard of him though. He does a lot of the tier one DOD decoy training, as well as teaching classes for the Blackwater K-9 and Triple Canopy guys.


I have never heard of this "tier one DOD decoy training". What are you referring to?


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Tim Bartlett said:


> I have never heard of this "tier one DOD decoy training". What are you referring to?


PM sent. I am sure you have heard of them;-)


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Tim Bartlett said:


> I have never heard of this "tier one DOD decoy training". What are you referring to?


I think what Mike was trying to say was _Tier One Military Units_, which in a nutshell is in below said paragraph. This information was classified at one time, however you can google all over and get information now, I just felt I needed to post this before this got out of control on who is who ....That being said, what they do, how they do it and how things are paid for are all classified information! 

Tier One refers to what are also known as national level assets, "black side" SOF units, and/or JSOC units (CAG/Delta, SEAL Tm 6/DEVGRU, etc.). Defining characteristics would be both funding issues and chain of command. In US military usage (at least informal usage) it can also be applied to counterparts in other nations who may or may not have the same skill set/skill level, but who do occupy the same niche.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Let me know when you find one of those fancy classified ads people that can even come close to what Jimmy can do.

I also think people should drop the word great when refering to a decoy on US soil. Especially in Mondio, there are no great decoys. They can get pissed, but they can also kiss my ass. Jimmy half asleep and in traction is gonna make them look stupid. Until people start realizing that 35 year old decoys are not great, have never been great in this country, the whole ring sport thing is gonna remain difficult. 

I also have yet to hear of any certified decoys coming to see what all the fuss is. I think that is a shame, but I can also tell you that they just are not gonna be able to do the things he can do. Still, I would have thought someone would have showed up at least somewhere along the line these last 4 weeks to see what they could do. 

One look at Jimmy, and the word good is hard to use with most of the decoys I have seen. That is the Gods honest truth.


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## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

Jeff,

I assume you are talking about Jimmy Vanhove?

I watched this video of him:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xambu3_jimmy-vanhove-groupe-3-1st-selectif_animals

What about his work makes him so great? I'm not being sarcastic, I don't know much about ring sport decoying. Is it his foot work? Stick work? Pressure on the dog? What am I looking at that's better than what the average decoy could do?


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## Tim Bartlett (May 21, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Let me know when you find one of those fancy classified ads people that can even come close to what Jimmy can do.
> 
> I also think people should drop the word great when refering to a decoy on US soil. Especially in Mondio, there are no great decoys. They can get pissed, but they can also kiss my ass. Jimmy half asleep and in traction is gonna make them look stupid. Until people start realizing that 35 year old decoys are not great, have never been great in this country, the whole ring sport thing is gonna remain difficult.
> 
> ...


Who is this Jimmy you are referring to??? We were talking about a LE seminar. I am confused..........


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Look a little harder and find a decoy in the US working the same dog, and it will be night and day.

Many people can't see this shit, but then again, they don't do ring sport. The bad thing is when they DO ring, and still can't see it, or even worse, are horrified that you could possibly say that there are better decoys than the ones we have.

I think these people also had their children play sports where they don't keep score.

If you cannot see it, then maybe you go and learn from Franco.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Tim Bartlett said:


> Who is this Jimmy you are referring to??? We were talking about a LE seminar. I am confused..........


Tim makes an awfully good point, the seminar is LE, not mondio or any type of ring. Hopefully what they will be doing during that seminar is not "sport".

DFrost


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Ben Colbert said:


> Jeff,
> 
> I assume you are talking about Jimmy Vanhove?
> 
> ...


Wishing I would have just plunked down the grand to go last weekend....f***

Ben, after watching videos of Jimmy, I would say that it is a combination of all of the above as well as his speed, athleticism and timing. Not to mention that he seems to have a knack for building confidence in a dog as well.....knowing precisely when to pressure and back off is important. 

Just my two cents, and I may be incorrect.....but that is what I see.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Not sure how this thread got side tracked so fast.
Just to recapp:
Oct 11-15
LE / Military K-9 seminar
Areas covered will be shooting, tracking, detection work, decoy work, and a lot of practical scenarios in all of these areas.

If you are not interested in the seminar that is fine with us, if you are not LE or Military then this is not a seminar that would pertain to you.
There are 20 seats available, about 10 seats are already filled.


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## Wayne Dodge (Mar 7, 2008)

I discussed this whole seminar with Mike in length on several occasions, we felt as though this combination of lessons would bring together many different aspects of working a dual purpose dog in multiple environments. We went over the potential instructors and their worth to the seminar in a few aspects; knowledge, reputation, availability and cost. We selected the best in each area that we could put together and gave them each one day to teach what they had to offer, then we plan on combining these lessons into a one day set of scenarios that will encompass all of the seminars classes. We hope that this experience will bring together in more clarity the multiple uses of a canine and the common areas that seem to be less developed as a general rule in our combined experiences. In turn helping the men and women in uniform who are out protecting our rights and freedoms gain a better understanding of how to work with their canine partner. 

As far as our selection for the decoy aspect of things, Mike already stated the clients desire for Franco and in such it only makes sense to bring him on board. Franco for sure has a large following in the LE world, many consider him as the finest LE decoy (not sport decoy) in this country. My personal opinion is still out on that, I watched the videos and found faults with the work based upon my interpretation of what he was trying to accomplish, yet I have never met the man in person or watched him work except for those clips. I have always gave people the benefit of the doubt, until they prove themselves one way or the other, I for sure will be paying careful attention to his class. I feel as though as a decoy myself that I try to take a pearl from each helper I watch work, either as a example as to what to try and duplicate down the road or as a lesson on what not to do. A handful of you on this board have watched me decoy in real life and work your young dogs after the trial or event, I believe I have a solid understanding of the work and I will give my honest take on the seminar afterwards.

To wrap it up, I think this is an excellent opportunity for handlers to put together many different skill sets and have the ability to have potential weaknesses discussed and then developed to attain a higher level of proficiency.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Remember that thread on liability of LE dogs targeting the crotch? May not be totally on the crotch but why would you show that pic?
The video at the bottom of his website is ridiculous.
The over the shoulder swing to the fall back roll ON BOTH VIDS LOL!

Besides isn't Dick coming over in October?


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Timothy Stacy said:


> View attachment 1169


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

Well….. I for one HAVE attended Franco’s 40 hour decoy school so I can hopefully detail a little about what it taught and why. 

First you have to understand that that Franco teaches aggression techniques for police and military. He is not a sport trainer so comparing him to sport decoys is pointless….different worlds with different goals… true apples and oranges comparisons. MOST of the students attending his classes have limited K9 experience and the school is designed to teach as much as possible to get the student onto a “path” where they are pointed in the right directions on how to properly work a police or military K9 in aggression.

You start out learning aggression theories like the “drive triangle” where the goal is to balance the dog in prey, defense, and socialization. You are explained how important decoy body language is to the dog and how to use it to strengthen the dog. You learn how to tell in the dog when you are starting to go too far too fast with the dog. 

As far as the bite work goes… Franco teaches you how to properly catch and work dogs on exposed and hidden sleeves… How to muzzle fight with the dog... and then the big one…. Suit work. You learn “suit on” how to properly work the dog on the suit…. How to teach him to hit center mass… how to properly take back bites, leg bites… how to properly take and work a dog on frontals. It’s a great school and Franco is a great instructor. He’s been there… he has worked PSD’s in an urban environment for his entire police career. He has watched patrol dogs succeed and fail out on the street and has come up with his own course of instruction to help handlers with it.
If you watch the first video again… the one of him decoying the black dog… listen carefully to the discussion in the background. That’s NAPWDA Master Trainer Kevin Kelleher explaining why they are doing what they are doing… instilling confidence in the dog bit by bit until it is able to take all of the pressure the are throwing at it and still having the dog know it is going to win. The dog was targeting the arm on the frontal bite… Franco is trying to teach the dog to bite properly on the inside and instill confidence in the dog that it can work the inside without getting hurt.

Think about it…. It might look silly or odd what you are seeing BUT a good patrol dog working in policing or the military needs to be able to take that and a whole lot more…. And a shit decoy will ruin said patrol dog if they don’t understand how to take the dog from points A to B in their training progression.


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## Tim Bartlett (May 21, 2007)

Well if a Master trainer is explaining everything, then it must make perfect sense..... ](*,)

That is the great thing about living in the US. We are all entitled to our own opinion. If you like his way of training, that is great.

My opinion still is that what he was doing was ridiculous and unsafe, LE or not. It was a big show because the camera was rolling.

I hope the seminar is a great success for you Mike and everyone that attends.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Good grief Matt. I will be here in PA until the 24th or something. Come and train with us and bring some new decoys. I will show you how goofy all the super secret LE techniques are. =D>=D>=D>=D>=D>=D>


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

Is the term 'master trainer' ever used to refer to someone legit, or is it a red flack?




Like a martial artist/fighter that talks about his 'underground streetfighting' record


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Matt Grosch said:


> Is the term 'master trainer' ever used to refer to someone legit, or is it a red flack?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


In my expierence most of the people who us the term "master trainer" to describe their own qualifications are usually not worth the paper their "master trainer" certifications are written on.
However there certainly are NAPWDA Master Trainers who are very good trainers, and since you brought him up I will tell you that Kevin Kelleher happens to be one them. I have had the opportunity to train with Kevin many times when he was with Blackwater and even more times now that he is in his current position. I can tell you that he is in a luxury position now in his current job in that he gets to train with the top 10% of the working dogs in the World, and he does a very good job with them. Kevin is a great guy, and he is a very knowledgeable police dog trainer and police dog decoy as well. I see him a couple times a month here at our kennel and even though I have never heard him call himself a Master Trainer, I would say that he is one hell of a good "real world" police dog trainer from everything I have seen about him.
He will very likely be here for the Oct. Seminar as well.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Here is your Master trainer http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zn2W09l6M_0&feature=player_embedded
He even has the security vest so he's qualified!


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## Richard Rutt (May 14, 2009)

I know how easy it is to get the Title "MASTER" attached to you. I got a ticket 40 years ago for hunting over bait, and to this day people still call me a "Master Baiter"


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Do we really need to turn this into a thread about whose dick is bigger? Whether sport folk like it or not there is a difference in sport an LE. I'm not aware of anything that is double naught secret spy, but it is different. LE/Military may not have adapted all the pretty names sport folks put on different stuff. Vendors and private trainers might try to do that, but mostly it's unimpressive to us that actually buy the dogs. I'm not a member of NAPWDA however, they don't just give the title away. There are rules to obtain it. At least the person that get that title has had to have been involved with the training of more than one dog. 

Good luck with the seminar. Actually, I wish I could attend, but that is not possible. This is my "busy" time of the year. Annual certifications, drug inventory etc really keeps me hopping.

DFrost


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Stacey, if Suttle brings that guy in, I am signing up.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Stacey, if Suttle brings that guy in, I am signing up.


 No way that I could afford to bring in that guy. Plus I am sure he is booked for years in advance with all of the seminars and workshops he gets invited to do.
Maybe some day we can get him in here, but it wont be this year.:-D


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I think that a huge effort should be made to get that guy for a summer seminar for two days or some shit. How incredibly AWESOME would that be ?? He and that bald **** you got coming now could do a little vaudville for us.

Wanna know why the really really good dogs stay in EU ?? LOL


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## Guest (May 13, 2010)

Richard Rutt said:


> I know how easy it is to get the Title "MASTER" attached to you. I got a ticket 40 years ago for hunting over bait, and to this day people still call me a "Master Baiter"


I can vouch for this.


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## Wayne Dodge (Mar 7, 2008)

Stevin, not sure why you would know about Richards masturbation practices yet you go girl....


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## Guest (May 13, 2010)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Here is your Master trainer http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zn2W09l6M_0&feature=player_embedded
> He even has the security vest so he's qualified!


Wooohahahaa that is some funny sh#T. #-o

"There you go... a flying bite" lol.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I would go to that guys seminar. The video alone is good for HOURS and HOURS of laughter. We should do that someday.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Suttle and Stacy need to re-post thier little movie vids of this guy.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

And to think all those badguys my K9 has bitten over the years that jam , punch , kick , fall on the dog , don't present the arm , leg , back , whateever properly , are ruining my dog . 

I could give a f*** about the decoy at the seminar . Don't know him and never heard of him . 

I hear Jeff talking about how there are no really good decoys in the US . Then I hear others critiqeing LE decoys and how they suck .

Fact of the matter is most decoys in sport and LE suck , then you have a few good ones and an occassional great one . Most just don't have it , be it , physicallly , mentally or a combination of both to be that good . Most can only try to learn and do their best . 

From my experiance percentage wise the number of sucky K9 teams in Sport and LE are about the same . Same for the quality of their decoys . Only difference I see is LE is more likely to put their dogs on a new decoy in order for him/her to improve then sport folks who are afraid they might ruin their dogs . 

On the Sport v. LE thing get over yourselves .


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

That must be a Sch thing. Buko was on a new decoy every 6 months or more often, his whole entire life. I think the point is that why learn from someone who sucks ?? You could just have guys bring their suits, and have a free for all at that point.

Matt, still here in PA. You comin or what ??


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> That must be a Sch thing. Buko was on a new decoy every 6 months or more often, his whole entire life. I think the point is that why learn from someone who sucks ?? You could just have guys bring their suits, and have a free for all at that point.


Wouldn't being on the street equate to that? (free for all) I know a dog that is shown good bite technique is a safer dog for everyone. But I'm sure the LE guys really don't give a flying **** if the dog hits center mass or turns it's head so the eyes are on the outside on a leg bite. The K9s themselves are just tools for a job. The slowest, frothiest mouth, missing canines, one eyed K9 GSD will still nail a crack head even if it was not trained by royalty, no?


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Here is your Master trainer http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zn2W09l6M_0&feature=player_embedded
> He even has the security vest so he's qualified!




So thats what all the fuss is about.....



'Yeah, um Id like to buy one of dem muthanF'n Poo-lich dogs"

(and when guy is taking a bite) "AWWW I SAID GAWD-DAMNNNN!"


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Geoff Empey said:


> Wouldn't being on the street equate to that? (free for all) I know a dog that is shown good bite technique is a safer dog for everyone. But I'm sure the LE guys really don't give a flying **** ?


which is why this is entitled Military/LE K9 Seminar. Real police don't particularly care about pretty points. While I've met a few competition whores (I'm referring to LE guys) in my career, the majority want a dog that can do the job. I've yet to meet a "bad guy" that had any experience as a helper/decoy or what other label might be put on them. I have met some that have practiced moves design to injure and incapacitate. I've not yet had a bad guy hit one of my dogs with a stick made of split bamboo. I have however, had them, shoot, stab, hit them with concrete blocks, shoes, clubs (including a lob wedge) bear hug them, grab them by their collar, hold the fur on either side of their face, well you see where I'm going. Decoys are particularly important in developing a dog, I'll agree with that. After that, it's take what comes. IF the dog can't handle it, fix it. If it can't be fixed, get rid of it and get another one. 

DFrost


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Here is your Master trainer http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zn2W09l6M_0&feature=player_embedded
> He even has the security vest so he's qualified!


Oh dear god. :roll:](*,)

How did he manage to get that female from Legacy K9?


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Matt, still here in PA. You comin or what ??


 
Unfortunately I used up my training budget and time going to our National Workshop this year and trying to meet up with Bob Scott (failed) . Anything else this year is gonna be tough to do. BUT I do need to expand my horizons… we all have a lot we can learn from each other. 
Not to mention… you were a good decoy to work my dog on… all our decoys here are short!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

What budget ?? Put the dog in the car and come on out. I am here till effectively the 24th. I am sure that if you have a truck, you can put TWO or THREE dogs in there. Carpool, be green and all that shit.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

No shit Matt. At least it's still in state.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

We have woods here as well. I am old, so you have to give me a hell of a head start, like call when you are 45 minutes to an hour out, and there you have it. Cool ass run through the hills training. Have I mentioned the hills ?? Maybe you call me when you are leaving. LOL


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Obviously the decoy work on the video is not for sport, I had a dog came up the leash on me once, he got a good hold of my arm and got me on the ground but as we rolling down the hill almost like in that video, the dog came of the bite because I got him rolling and he was upside down, as soon as he released the bite I got a hold of his collar and as able to control him after that and so I think what he did there is just preparing the dog to many possible things that can happen to a LE dog as much as possible, I see nothing wrong with that.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I can only imagine what idiot thing you were doing to the dog to make him bite your arm. How the **** did you get on the ground ?? 

Here is another thing to ponder in that small goldfish brain of yours, so the decoy seminar, according to your example, teaches LE to roll about on the ground after the dog bites the handler ??

That should work out well. Is there an extra charge for stupidity like that ??

The dog took you to the ground. LOL If you are out in the rain too long, does the weight of your clothes getting wet keep you from reaching the house ??L Might want to start working with smaller dogs.

By the way, I do consider you an idiot.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Good entertainment here!


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Hey Mike is this one of yours? Master Vandermoff is cornering the DS market as well. This is the next dog people are gonna be talking about
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pE7ajA519o&feature=player_embedded

View more training here http://www.vanguardk9.com/multi-media.php


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## Kristina Senter (Apr 4, 2006)

Anna Kasho said:


> Oh dear god. :roll:](*,)
> 
> How did he manage to get that female from Legacy K9?


Pretty simple....I was unaware of what a scumbag he was when I gave her to him. If only I'd known.....Uggh.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Apparently you never read any of my many many posts, where I showed everyone as clearly as I possibly could that there was something wrong with him.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Kristina, at least he's doing something with the dogs. He's also better than those Kentucky guys that have Suttles' DS's. That's another funny video:-&


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Kristina, at least he's doing something with the dogs. He's also better than those Kentucky guys that have Suttles' DS's. That's another funny video:-&


I am very happy to report that both of thoe Dutchies from that guy have been sold to police departments. I saw one very recently that is a dual purpose dog for a department in Lousiana and he turned out to be a very nice dog.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

ACK ACK ACK ACK ACK ACK ACK ACK

I really did feel for you. I have sold pups to people that have faked me out pretty dang good. People want to bust on the breeder, kinda like this Braxton dog, but with all the information on the internet, it is hard to tell who is an idiot.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Wow surprised they weren't ruined. Was that their intention or did the dogs get to be too much for them?


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## Kristina Senter (Apr 4, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Apparently you never read any of my many many posts, where I showed everyone as clearly as I possibly could that there was something wrong with him.


Unfortunately, not BEFORE I gave her to him  
He was not exactly the pillar of education when i spoke to and met him, but lets be realistic in the knowledge of the vast majority of dog purchasers. He took good physical care of the dog he brought with him, does not seem to mistreat or abuse his dogs and yes, as Tim said, at least he does something with them, however retarded it may be.
He only had her for a short time....and then LOST her. Her tattoo and microchip were both registered to me, I called every shelter, vet and rescue in the Jacksonville area with no success. Guess I'll never know.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

You did read the rest of my post where I pointed out how hard it is to pick out the absolute morons now thanks to the internet..... right ??


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Hey Mike is this one of yours? Master Vandermoff is cornering the DS market as well. This is the next dog people are gonna be talking about
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pE7ajA519o&feature=player_embedded
> 
> View more training here http://www.vanguardk9.com/multi-media.php


Its true, its true.......Its over Mike. Better put Carlos and Arko up on craigslist and start looking for some GSD's.
* http://www.myspace.com/nicovanguard*


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## Kristina Senter (Apr 4, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> You did read the rest of my post where I pointed out how hard it is to pick out the absolute morons now thanks to the internet..... right ??


Yup, yup. 
Some of the best homes Ive ever placed dogs in were "good 'ol boys", and some of the worst were experienced dog trainers/handlers. Sometimes, you just don't know. I most sorely regret that he's breeding the crap out of that piece of crap Dutchie! Uggh!!


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## Jim Duncan (Jan 19, 2009)

Sounds Like an interesting LE seminar. It is unfortunate that someone tries to post info about a seminar then some "sport" guys knock instructors that they know nothing about. It would be nice if those hosting the seminar actually stuck up for their choice of instructors a little stronger. Franco is an excellent decoy and I see Kevin K's name was mentioned. I can assure some of the folks questioning the instructors or Master Trainers in Leo, that Kevin has forgotten more than most will ever know about real working dogs. As far as the Tier 1 or DOD guys, their dogs are far better trained and more experienced than any dogs people on this forum may have, myself included. 

For the super great sport guys who always seem to knock others, bring your dog out to our training. I'll give you a sim gun and you do a mile long man trailing track, down streets, across highways, ending with a building search with an armed subject (s). Finish the track and clear the building with out getting shot. Sim only hurts a little if you do get shot. You may need to shoot the decoy while your dog is enroute or even on the subject. Then out your dog and call him back, easy day. 

Granted not all K9 handlers are super skilled, but neither are all of your sport handlers. It is a lot different to track with a dog at 2 AM for an armed subject than to put on a suit and decoy in sport. 

JMO FWIW,

Jim


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Jim Duncan said:


> Sounds Like an interesting LE seminar. It is unfortunate that someone tries to post info about a seminar then some "sport" guys knock instructors that they know nothing about. It would be nice if those hosting the seminar actually stuck up for their choice of instructors a little stronger. Franco is an excellent decoy and I see Kevin K's name was mentioned. I can assure some of the folks questioning the instructors or Master Trainers in Leo, that Kevin has forgotten more than most will ever know about real working dogs. As far as the Tier 1 or DOD guys, their dogs are far better trained and more experienced than any dogs people on this forum may have, myself included.
> 
> For the super great sport guys who always seem to knock others, bring your dog out to our training. I'll give you a sim gun and you do a mile long man trailing track, down streets, across highways, ending with a building search with an armed subject (s). Finish the track and clear the building with out getting shot. Sim only hurts a little if you do get shot. You may need to shoot the decoy while your dog is enroute or even on the subject. Then out your dog and call him back, easy day.
> 
> ...


Well said Jim\\/


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

"As far as the Tier 1 or DOD guys, their dogs are far better trained"


I dont know enough to argue, but are they really better than the top PSA and Ring dogs in the country?


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Matt Grosch said:


> "As far as the Tier 1 or DOD guys, their dogs are far better trained"
> 
> 
> I dont know enough to argue, but are they really better than the top PSA and Ring dogs in the country?


No matter the sport or title, these dogs are put back into training to prep the dogs and handlers ( teams ) for the real thing. So my opinion would be yes. I'm sure there might be some ring dogs and PSA that would make the cut but have no clue the percentages or if it was even a possibility. I know there are some guys and gals that could probally give a more define answer to your question Matt.:-k


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Granted not all K9 handlers are super skilled, but neither are all of your sport handlers. It is a lot different to track with a dog at 2 AM for an armed subject than to put on a suit and decoy in sport. 

Yes, but sucking at it, and then requiring money to teach YOU how to suck is probably something that we were worried about.

Yes, that is cute how manly it is to track a dog looking for a "armed subject", but not really the point we were making. You should leave that out, as it makes you sound like a dick.


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## Jim Duncan (Jan 19, 2009)

Matt Grosch said:


> "As far as the Tier 1 or DOD guys, their dogs are far better trained"
> 
> 
> I dont know enough to argue, but are they really better than the top PSA and Ring dogs in the country?


 Yes, the ones I have seen are far better and battle proven, I'd bet money on it.


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## Jim Duncan (Jan 19, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Granted not all K9 handlers are super skilled, but neither are all of your sport handlers. It is a lot different to track with a dog at 2 AM for an armed subject than to put on a suit and decoy in sport.
> 
> Yes, but sucking at it, and then requiring money to teach YOU how to suck is probably something that we were worried about.
> 
> Yes, that is cute how manly it is to track a dog looking for a "armed subject", but not really the point we were making. You should leave that out, as it makes you sound like a dick.


Funny, but I have only read a few of your posts and you seem to consistently criticize everyone that doesn't agree with you. I read one thread where people asked for your qualifications or resume, I never saw the answer posted. You have knocked some of the top handlers in the world, who have achieved things with dogs in the sport world that few, including you ever will attain. I watched the video of the 2010 Nationals and it's amazing that you talk so much shit. You seem to have a nice dog, perfect for a sport like that. The gunfire issue would concern me for a Police K9. Our dogs have to be neutral under gunfire and can not return to the handler like yours did. I would think that would DQ you in a national event. I would say it's more of a reflection on your training than that of the dog. 

You have a signature line a the bottom of your posts:
We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm." 

Certainly, you are not talking about yourself again? 

Perhaps, you are a better trainer or coach than that video shows. Here's my point so it's not confused, don't judge people that you don't know by one or two videos; and I won't judge you by the one video I saw of you. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you had a bad day. It pisses me off when sport people knock K9 handlers, when they could never do the job. My offer stands, but you'd have to resolve the gunfire issue first. 

Jim


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## Darryl Richey (Jul 3, 2006)

"As far as the Tier 1 or DOD guys, their dogs are far better trained"

Thats trying to compare apples to oranges.
Darryl


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Jim, as you well know comparing sport to PSD is truly apples to oranges. PSD does not have the luxury of training for two years before they trial, one time, then back to training. I only wish we could spend all our time training, until that one or two times a year we "trial". For that reason, when sport folks criticize PSD training and deployment, I generally hear, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Street proven is a damn sight different than winning a title somewhere. I've yet to read where the decoy that defeated the dog in a trial has gone on to intentionally inflict bodily damage to the dog or the handler. 

DFrost


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## Jim Duncan (Jan 19, 2009)

David,
Well said. 
I don't have any issues with people doing dog sports, quite the opposite. I am usually very impressed and realize there are things that can be learned from top sport people. I got into dog sports years ago doing Schutzhund and quickly learned the AKC agility people did a great job at teaching the A frame and jumps. So, I went to some agility classes to learn what they were doing. The perspective they had was very interesting. I think the Ring, and PSA sports are good as well and if there was a club close by I'd check it out and steal some good ideas. However, just like agility, SchH and Ring are all different, so is Police K9 handling. I don't see a need to take every opportunity to knock every K9 handler and trainer. There are some great K9 handlers out there who work hard and do a really good job. This seminar will probably be good, I'll get some feedback from some guys I know who might be attending. I'll see them this week and next week and mention this to them. 

I really like the blah, blah, blah analogy. From now on that's what I'll hear as well. 

Jim


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

I have not followed this thread in a while. I am not forcing anyone to attent this seminar who does not wish to attend. I support evey one of the instructors we have selected to teach in their areas. If you do not want to attend because you dont like one or all of the instructors that is fine with us. it is a military and LE seminar and the instructors are well known and respected by the Military and LE community, as well as myself. 
If you dont agree with the way any of the instructors teach, that is your choice, but please do not use this thread to disrespect the people who I have ask to teach at this seminar.


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

Again, Im new, but the only big difference I have seen with LEO and sport people is that the national level (At least) sport guys are big on keeping the training prey based whereas the LEO's bring in civil stuff a bit sooner.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Duncan just wants to swing in here like many others and shame people into recognizing the fact that he is law enforcement.

I do not always train where I can be shooting a gun. He does not get to see that too often, however, I don't see anything with dogs you have trained at all.

It is so easy to talk about how tough you are because you are following an armed suspect and bla bla bla. Whoopie ****ing doo.

How about you take your amazing dog, and since it is so well trained, go out and join Mondio and start trialing. After all, all these dogs are so well trained and battle tested surely you have access to one of these dogs, or your own super trained personal dog.

Looks like it is gonna be a bad day at the office Jim. Maybe you thought since you have your cute little uniform on your avatar we would all bend to your will.

Compete in Mondio, or shut the **** up. That is pretty much your choice, since all these dogs are so well trained.

I cannnot believe that you have the guts to think that you have a clue.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

bring your dog out to our training. I'll give you a sim gun and you do a mile long man trailing track, down streets, across highways, ending with a building search with an armed subject (s). Finish the track and clear the building with out getting shot. Sim only hurts a little if you do get shot. You may need to shoot the decoy while your dog is enroute or even on the subject. Then out your dog and call him back, easy day. 

Jim, in your experience what percent of k9 handlers do you think would even take the k9s out of the car in a real scenario such as this? Of those that do what percent could complete the track in your scenario even without the track being hostile? 
Truthfully now


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Compete in Mondio, or shut the **** up. That is pretty much your choice, since all these dogs are so well trained.

I think you might be getting a bit obsessed here


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## Wayne Dodge (Mar 7, 2008)

This is the same old crap time and time again…. Everyone thinks they know better then the next guy when it comes to different styles of work. I am involved with both sides and have a mutual respect for what each has to offer, both can be better, both can learn from each other… get over all the crap.

This is going to be a good seminar, I believe everyone who attends will for sure walk away with a better working knowledge in at least one area, hopefully many. It is a learning opportunity, take it for what it is, an opportunity to learn different styles of work, a different look on theories, a new pearl of wisdom here or there, an opportunity to put your skill sets together and train in multiple scenarios.

If you have something constructive to offer, if you think you have the ability to help other individuals become more capable in their training or handling abilities well then get out there and help… show everyone what you have to offer, it is much more productive. Take the bickering about law enforcement vs. sport work elsewhere it is simply not productive and this thread is about a learning opportunity. I’m not looking for an argument, I’m not looking for anyone to misplace a need to justify their comments, let it go and move forward constructively.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Well said Wayne!


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## Jim Duncan (Jan 19, 2009)

Jeff,
You wrote in your usual charming fashion: 
"*I do not always train where I can be shooting a gun. He does not get to see that too often, however, I don't see anything with dogs you have trained at all.

It is so easy to talk about how tough you are because you are following an armed suspect and bla bla bla. Whoopie ****ing doo.

How about you take your amazing dog, and since it is so well trained, go out and join Mondio and start trialing. After all, all these dogs are so well trained and battle tested surely you have access to one of these dogs, or your own super trained personal dog."*

Yes, I agree access to a starters pistol or blank gun is very difficult. Many people in other dog sports like Schutzhund have problems finding starters pistols. Do you have access to a piece of luggage? Wasn't your dog supposed to guard that bag? Is it difficult to train that? How about teaching your dog to heel or actually go over the jump? Wasn't that a National compettion? Is Mondio the be all and all of dog sports? I think my dog could do all of those exercises with the proper training, except the wall jump. He can jump that high but I wouldn't risk the chance of injury. He's a GSD and not a Mali and there is no good reason to risk him getting hurt and being out of work. 

Honestly, if I had seen a really great performance form you or your dog I might take you more seriously. It was a marginal performance, IMHO. I'd say you have a decent dog that made your poor training look ok. It seemed the dog worked inspite of your training. I don't know Mondio rules, but you probably should have been failed after the gun fire or at least when the decoy stole the bag from your dog. You need to learn your skill level and stop talking crap about other trainers and their abilities; who exceed yours by light years. Mondio must be very forgiving in it's scoring, what would have happened in France at the Nationals? Obviously, you don't know it all as you claim. I do love your back peddling and excuses for your lack of preparedness for the "Mondio Nationals." 

I don't want to distract from this thread by bickering with you any longer. By the way, I like that picture of my dog. Sorry, that you don't like it. 

Jim


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Anytime you want to stop being a pussy and do mondio with your outstanding dog, then fine. Until then, like all of you that cannot back your shit up, I will just continue to laugh at you, and your pathetic opinions.

I didn't even read what you wrote, as I am sure you are avoiding what we all know is true, that you just cannot train the sport. On top of that, you think you are good enough to judge something you cannot do.

Post a video of your dog in a trial. 

Sport people just don't get it right ?? We watch your sad shit and laugh. We watch you **** up good dogs, what, you don't think "sport people" don't see the dogs you **** up ??

Where do you think you are getting all these dogs anyway ?? They are all dogs that don't fit someones training system, or cannot handle the pressure of control work.

There are people on here that can actually train a dog, not flail about like many many k9 cops do. I have had way to many cops talk about going in and finding drugs were the dogs failed, as they had no idea what they were supposed to do, or were waiting for the "cue" that never came.



Feel free to run back to PDB where they know **** all.


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## Jim Duncan (Jan 19, 2009)

Chris McDonald said:


> bring your dog out to our training. I'll give you a sim gun and you do a mile long man trailing track, down streets, across highways, ending with a building search with an armed subject (s). Finish the track and clear the building with out getting shot. Sim only hurts a little if you do get shot. You may need to shoot the decoy while your dog is enroute or even on the subject. Then out your dog and call him back, easy day.
> 
> Jim, in your experience what percent of k9 handlers do you think would even take the k9s out of the car in a real scenario such as this? Of those that do what percent could complete the track in your scenario even without the track being hostile?
> Truthfully now


Chris,
Every handler I know would attempt this track. I described a training scenario we did a couple of weeks ago, it was actually more complex than this. Every dog completed the track and found the right building to search. These were scent discrimination tracks and we went through parking lots, like a walmart, down streets through fields to a building or house. Each track was just over a mile and the handler had no idea where to go. It ended with a building clearing and a bite/no bite scenario. To make things more difficult we had "hostages" in the building with no equipment. 

In a real scenario, I have had several not unlike this recently. My longest track was 2 miles for 3 armed subjects in a 700 acre park. We tracked right to the picnic table they were sitting at in a campground, recovering evidence along the way. In March I tracked 3 armed subjects who just robbed a store, the track strated in the parking lot, 1/2 mile on asphalt, through woods into an apartment complex where the dog tracked to a bedroom window. When I started the track was a 1/2 hour old and it was windy and raining. We caught the 3 guys in the apt. when I opened the window and gave warnings. In April I tracked 4 guys from a burglary to an apartment, the track was about 3/4's of a mile, 1 1/2 hours old and had 40 mph winds. We tracked down neighborhood streets to the apt and obtained a search warrant, mainly based on the dog. All 4 subjects were caught inside and all the stolen items recovered. 

Actually, the track being "hostile" makes it easier for the dog. A real world track with a subject running pumping fear and adrenaline pumps the dog up. Truthfully, every handler in our unit has had great success catching bad guys on these types of tracks, except one. We have one handler who is relatively new and just hasn't gotten the hang of reading his dog and probably never will. To be a good successful K9 handler you first need to be a good cop with good instincts and a strong desire to catch bad guys. This guy who wasn't the most proactive cop before coming into the K9 unit. Past performance is usually a good measure of future performance and it rings true with him. 
The rest of the unit does an outstanding job.

Jim


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## Guest (Jun 1, 2010)

You can only compare that which is comparable.

So, if you take police k9s and their level of training _under ritualized, controlled conditions_ (i.e. USPCA trials) and compare them to, say, a French Ring Trial (also ritualized controlled conditions)...the difference in training should be pretty obvious. Typically. That goes for all the helpful things which would get you booted off a sport field (handler help especially).

Fair is comparing the best to the best. We're talking about the degree of handler control here, and those who think it's fair to compare at all.

But there's a justification built in. The K9s have handlers...not neccesarily trainers. Fine. 

There's another justifcation. K9s don't need the level of precision. It's true. There aren't starting lines and such you have to worry about on the street. Fine.

So why would a K9 guy get all bent about the suggestion that a K9 isn't trained as well in those things which ARE COMPARABLE? Because they're not. Not if we're comparing things in reasonably equitable venues, like USPCA vs. French Ring. It doesn't look like there are many rules for USPCA heeling (for example), cuz the dogs are all over the ****ing place.

Dog selection is another matter, granted.

Practical considerations for giving priorities to other aspects of training (dope, tracking etc) is another matter too. There're only so many hours in the day.

Observable performances under controlled, ritualized conditions are fair to compare though...and a FR3 dog at a high level of competition is going to smoke a USPCA trial dog at a comparable level. 

Unless someone can point me in the direction of something to suggest otherwise. I'm just not seeing it.


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## Jim Duncan (Jan 19, 2009)

Jeff, 
I didn't think you would read my post. First the truth hurts, second you lack the ability to comprehend anything unless you have stated it. 

Jim

Actually, I think you did read it you just won't admit it.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Oh Jim, I just can't fake you out.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Granted not all K9 handlers are super skilled, but neither are all of your sport handlers. It is a lot different to track with a dog at 2 AM for an armed subject than to put on a suit and decoy in sport.
> 
> Yes, but sucking at it, and then requiring money to teach YOU how to suck is probably something that we were worried about.
> 
> Yes, that is cute how manly it is to track a dog looking for a "armed subject", but not really the point we were making. You should leave that out, as it makes you sound like a dick.


actually, referring to an officer putting their life on the line as "cute" makes you sound like a colossal prick..


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

So you are saying that some how your opinion of me changed from...........

I guess you could see it that way, but I get tired of people who actually signed up for this shit, to constantly use it to try and bully those of us who did not sign up for it. Funny how it is always added when they are critisized for weak standards, or thinking that they know what they are talking about.


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## Jim Duncan (Jan 19, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> So you are saying that some how your opinion of me changed from...........
> 
> I guess you could see it that way, but I get tired of people who actually signed up for this shit, to constantly use it to try and bully those of us who did not sign up for it. Funny how it is always added when they are critisized for weak standards, or thinking that they know what they are talking about.


That's not the point at all. I love my job and wouldn't have it any other way. You my friend are the bully, no one here is bullying you or chastising you for your life choices. My issue with you is neither sport vs K9, but simply how you talk shit about everyone. I have read posts where you have bashed other world class handlers and sport competitors. It is clear form the video I saw of the Mondio Nationals that you need to learn to stop talking and go to seminars to learn yourself. This sounds like a really good seminar, one you could definitely benefit from. You could work on that gunfire issue, since you can't get a blank gun. As well as the article search, the obedience and the object guarding. It is also interesting how no one took you up on the offer to decoy for the seminar.

My dog is very well trained in obedience, tracking, aggression and narcotics. My standards are high, probably higher than yours. My obedience is tighter than what you displayed in that video. Now, I am acting like you judging every thing from one video. I may not do the "Almighty Mondio" sport, but I can read dogs and get a good feel for a dog and handler in OB and bitework from watching. I compared your performance to the others and it was telling. 

The big question is; Why would anyone who saw that video pay to go to a seminar taught by you? 

The other thing I enjoy form watching these sport events is the number of people wearing "K-9" hats and shirts. Funny how many of these "sport" people want to be K9 handlers. 

I'm taking David's advice now and will only hear: blah,blah blah form you in the future.

Jim


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Jim Duncan said:


> The other thing I enjoy form watching these sport events is the number of people wearing "K-9" hats and shirts. Funny how many of these "sport" people want to be K9 handlers.


K9 is the dog, you know canine. Every dog is a canine. Has nothing to do with Police. Anyone who handles a dog is a "K9 handler"


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Wasn't this a thread on a seminar? 

For what it is worth, I have seen many dogs on the street that can do any given sport out there, just have clean up the OB, very social level headed dog. I don't think the dogs are the issue, its the handler/trainer. Most sport people are their own trainer and train with others, were most LE/Military don't do as much training with their dog as they have an assigned trainer for that. (Experience) 

That being said, the end result and the goals are obviously different. In reference to the track question, how many people would do it?? I don't know any handler that wouldn't! Easier if its hostile as well as Jim said.

The issue with most LE/Military theses days, not only with plug n' play dogs is they are going from someone passionate about dogs and training to a more skilled operator behind the leash. The dog is just another tool in the arsenal. 


Whether you like or dislike the seminar or guy's involved, it's embarrasing as "WE" so called dog people have this disrespect for one another! If you enjoy training and handling dogs, whether you agree or disagree with someones methods or intentions, ignore it, leave it, or talk to someone, but don't talk shit, makes you look childish, we are all out to learn and do great things with dogs aren't we?


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Wayne Dodge said:


> This is the same old crap time and time again…. Everyone thinks they know better then the next guy when it comes to different styles of work. I am involved with both sides and have a mutual respect for what each has to offer, both can be better, both can learn from each other… get over all the crap.


 You're pissing in the wind, Wayne. 

But, I do agree.


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## Guest (Jun 1, 2010)

Timothy Stacy said:


> K9 is the dog, you know canine. Every dog is a canine. Has nothing to do with Police. Anyone who handles a dog is a "K9 handler"


On the other hand, if you call yourself a "Narcotics Officer", but you're really a bicycle salesman...that's crossing a certain line. :-s


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Timothy Stacy said:


> K9 is the dog, you know canine. Every dog is a canine. Has nothing to do with Police. Anyone who handles a dog is a "K9 handler"


So many people forget that!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hH4fBgaZ4-U&playnext_from=TL&videos=I_pgvF8tiD4&feature=grec_index

Ha ha


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> So you are saying that some how your opinion of me changed from...........
> 
> I guess you could see it that way, but I get tired of people who actually signed up for this shit, to constantly use it to try and bully those of us who did not sign up for it. Funny how it is always added when they are critisized for weak standards, or thinking that they know what they are talking about.


i personally never thought you were a prick. i think you are a guy who speaks his opinion without regard for what others think of it or how it might effect them. i have a little of that in me as well.

the problem with this exchange is that in your never ending need to win an e-dickmearsuing contest, you insult an entire group of people. had you taken exception to the guy injecting his profession in the argument and specifically called him whatever came to mind....no big deal. but when you refer to the scenario as "cute" you disrespect the entire law enforcement community, who by most accounts, are noble people who while they don't need your respect and approval, also don't need you pissing on them and the graves of their fallen brethren.

as for the sport/PSD thing who cares. there is a lot that both groups can learn from each other. 

as for this thread...it sounds like an awesome seminar and if it were in my area, i would certainly try and attend.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I probably should have pointed out the particular guy I was talking about, but I also have the problem that I am responding to one person, and not everyone on the planet.

I do hate when they assume that I am going to roll over because they chose a dangerous profession. That really is a pet peeve of mine, and then you look at who is teaching them, and no wonder it is dangerous.

I also get a little pissy, because everyone should be training together, not acting like there is something oh so secret about what they are doing.

I bust on Sch, because they made it a grotesque mockery of what it's intention was, and I bust on nara for just doing whatever they want, and playing politics. Mondio is rapidly becoming watered down. Unfortunately there is little I can do about it but bitch, Soooooooooo I bitch. Maybe when election time comes, someone will stand in the door and say enough of making everything easy.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Timothy Stacy said:


> K9 is the dog, you know canine. Every dog is a canine. Has nothing to do with Police. Anyone who handles a dog is a "K9 handler"


Everyone that's not in a K9 unit should wear a Canine t shirt or hat then, there is a difference and everybody knows it.

I think it looks stupid especially when the lettering is almost bigger than what it's printed on .


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## Jim Duncan (Jan 19, 2009)

*Jeff says,*
*I probably should have pointed out the particular guy I was talking about, but I also have the problem that I am responding to one person, and not everyone on the planet.

I do hate when they assume that I am going to roll over because they chose a dangerous profession. That really is a pet peeve of mine, and then you look at who is teaching them, and no wonder it is dangerous.

I also get a little pissy, because everyone should be training together, not acting like there is something oh so secret about what they are doing.*

The problem is that that you talk garbage about everyone. No one is asking you to roll over, just stop being such a jack ass. People might take you more seriously if you just stop acting like you are so flippin perfect and the greatest thing that has ever come to dog sports. I'm not asking you to like me or even respect my profession, I really don't care. I was stating that you are not in any position to knock others who do a great job helping others train. If you don't like the instructors these guys chose don't go to the seminar, plain and simple. It is incredibly disrespectful for you to knock Franco when you have never seen him in person or really know what he does.

Here's what you said about Franco:

*get a different decoy instructor. THat one is for retards.*

*Seriously, if you think that guy is respected, someone sold you a line of bullshit. I can show you how to decoy if that is all you could come up with. At least that way you can learn how to do it correctly. I cannot believe that people would pay for that silly shit.*

Are you so respected? Isn't it really silly that people would pay to go your seminar? Shall, I go on the thread for your seminar and post the same crap about you? 

You seem to get a little pissy about everything. It would be great if more people trained together and I might look into a Mondio club to check it out. But, why would I or anyone else want to train with you and your miserable attitude? Although, we could teach you a few things and help with your dogs issues. The problem really boils down to the fact that you look down on everyone / and especially anyone who doesn't do Mondio. You think all K9 handlers (I mean LEO's) suck and you have stated that many times. You knock anyone who does SchH or any sport besides Mondio. Just stop your whining already and go out and find someone who will put up with your bs and train your dog. 

At some point when so many people tell you time and time again that you act like a complete ass, you have to realize that maybe it is you and not every one else. 

JMO FWIW,

Jim


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

I learned something today, I really did not know there was a difference. I though a K9 just meant a dog and not an active police dog. I don’t have a K9 shirt, so I am OK


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I think it looks stupid especially when the lettering is almost bigger than what it's printed on .


Can't disagree with you there!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: I was stating that you are not in any position to knock others who do a great job helping others train. 

How would you know ?? That seems to be the problem now doesn't it ??

Quote: People might take you more seriously if you just stop acting like you are so flippin perfect and the greatest thing that has ever come to dog sports.

Obviously you are talking out of your ass. I doubt that you have read any of the many many many threads where I talk about things that I could not seem to get through to my dog. That is the problem with assumption, you make an ass out of you, and umption.

Quote: I'm not asking you to like me or even respect my profession, I really don't care.

Yes you do, or you would have shut up by now.

Quote: 

Are you so respected? Isn't it really silly that people would pay to go your seminar? Shall, I go on the thread for your seminar and post the same crap about you? 

If I was all the better than Franco, then yeah, feel free. I know you think that I am the only one with this opinion, but the PM box has quite a few messages telling me that I am dead on. Why they do not speak up, I do not know. Anyone can make a dog look stupid, and then appear to "fix" it.

As far as my seminar, feel free to post whatever you want on there. I do not mess peoples dogs up to make myself look better. I am never going to tell someone not to speak up. If you see something that I am doing wrong in any of the videos, (which some there are plenty) feel free to speak up.


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## Jim Duncan (Jan 19, 2009)

*Quote: People might take you more seriously if you just stop acting like you are so flippin perfect and the greatest thing that has ever come to dog sports.

Obviously you are talking out of your ass. I doubt that you have read any of the many many many threads where I talk about things that I could not seem to get through to my dog. That is the problem with assumption, you make an ass out of you, and umption.

Quote: I'm not asking you to like me or even respect my profession, I really don't care.
*
Actually, every post I have seen of yours, you are knocking, bashing or bad mouthing some one or their training. I haven't seen one post where you talk about your poor training. It's my pet peeve when some one constantly knocks others, especially those far better than themselves. 

I'm not the one talking out of my ass, and I watched one of your videos and nicely pointed out what I saw that was wrong. And there was a lot wrong with your performance at the MR nationals, it was not a national level perfomance, IMHO. Perhaps, it is ok for Mondio in the US or perhaps you just had a really really bad day. When you can't even get your dog to go over a long jump, heel with any precision, not break under gun fire (stuff us K9 guys do with ease) and the object guarding was a classic. It was embarrassing for you, but hysterical, it could be in a Mondio Bloopers reel. Those are the reasons that I think you need a little more humility and not bash other people so harshly. It's not just Franco, it's many more than him. Do you really think you look better by bashing others so much? When you talk shit about people that have competed on the world level or in the German BSP, you lose all credability, IMO. 

_Quote: I'm not asking you to like me or even respect my profession, I really don't care.

Yes you do, or you would have shut up by now._

No, I don't care what you think of me. You don't even know me. I do care about how rudely and obnoxiously you treat others. Especially, when I know some of them very well. 

Unfortunately, your bitching from the first post on this thread has hijacked a thread about a good training seminar. I'm in a LE K9 seminar this week that I organized and heard good things about dogs from Logan Haus. We just bought a dog for a handler last week and will need another dog in 2 months, we may go there and check them out and add them to our vendor list. I'm sure I will know several of the guys at this seminar. I'd love to go to this seminar it does sound well planned, thorough and well thought out. I'm sure the guys that go will get a lot out of it.

Jim


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Actually, every post I have seen of yours, you are knocking, bashing or bad mouthing some one or their training. I haven't seen one post where you talk about your poor training. It's my pet peeve when some one constantly knocks others, especially those far better than themselves.

I am sure that you are just bitter. Maybe you can point out all these posts where I am doing all this. Remember that since this is written word, you are the one who takes it one way or the other. Where are all these far better trainers I am bashing ?? LOL

Quote: Unfortunately, your bitching from the first post on this thread has hijacked a thread about a good training seminar.

Well that is probably why we differ so much. If you think that is good stuff, then cool, goody for you. Some of us look at it differently. Maybe when you make it to the next level or so (like that will happen) you will see what is being said.

Quote: I'd love to go to this seminar it does sound well planned, thorough and well thought out. I'm sure the guys that go will get a lot out of it.

That is sorta the scary thing. Kinda funny you are so cranky, but not even going. Are you sure this is not just displaced aggression ?? LOL

Quote: And there was a lot wrong with your performance at the MR nationals, it was not a national level perfomance, IMHO.

About the only thing I agree with. Maybe one day you will have a dog like him, and we will see how well you do. LOL 

I still say since your dog is so well trained, that you should go and enter a dog. Do the dog in white for level three. Of course your excuse was I would keep you from doing so, but what is the real reason ?? How about you bust out a video of your dog ?? Asked for that, but all I got was bla bla bla.

Quote: It was embarrassing for you, but hysterical, it could be in a Mondio Bloopers reel.

I go on the field with the dog, and whatever happens, happens. I don't get all embarrassed by it, if you look closely, I am laughing at one point. Then there is you, and I don't see you even trying. Gotta try harder than that to get me. LOL

Quote: You don't even know me. 

Oh yes I do. Otherwise you wouldn't be dancing this little dance that I have you doing. =D>=D>=D>=D>=D>=D>

You are used to being listened to, being in charge. You are the guy that would wait for me and pull me over for any little reason at all if I was in your area.


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## Mike Di Rago (Jan 9, 2009)

Way too much importance given to bullshit here. But I guess it keeps the fans interested. This is the internet!
The original thread was interesting, too bad it has become (again) a pissing match! This all gets old real fast.
Jeff I would like to know how you fixed the training problems Buko showed during the nationals,ie. the jump.
I believe that would be interesting to read.
Having done police dog handling and now trying to get my present dog ready for Ring Brevet, I can say that I have seen lazy handlers on both sides (sports and police) and I have had the chance of knowing hard workers on both sides. The one common factor seems that the good handlers that are also hard workers have rarely shown arrogance. 
Lets discuss training and get off the personal attacks.
Mike


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