# Dumbbell Retrieve



## Justen Haynes (Dec 1, 2010)

Hey guys. So I have the opposite problem of most people. My dog comes back to me like a rocket because he knows he is going to get rewarded. The problem I am having is a speedy run TO the dumbbell. Any suggestions on how to get him to go to it faster? Could it just be the more confident he gets about the whole exercise that he will run to it quicker??


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

how did you teach it?


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## Justen Haynes (Dec 1, 2010)

He was taught a forced retrieve b/c he was mouthy. It was done with as little compulsion as possible. He has no avoidance issues with the dumbbell...when I get it out he goes crazy. He just doesn't run to it as fast when he goes to get it as he does when he comes back...lol


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

how does he run for other toys?

How do you do a forced retrieve with little compulsion?


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## Justen Haynes (Dec 1, 2010)

As little as possible... He runs like crazy for other toys but my marker word is "free". He only gets toys for rewards. Even if we are playing fetch I make him sit, platz, bark....whatever..and then "free" him for the toy. I think the bring command is confusing him. I just went out and did our 2nd session today. I threw the dumbbell and held him between my legs and pumped him up until he started trying to pull for it and then commanded "bring" and he shot out like a rocket. Praised him like crazy when he got to the dumbbell. Gonna try this method for a while I guess. What do you think about that?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Justen Haynes said:


> As little as possible... He runs like crazy for other toys but my marker word is "free". He only gets toys for rewards. Even if we are playing fetch I make him sit, platz, bark....whatever..and then "free" him for the toy. I think the bring command is confusing him. I just went out and did our 2nd session today. I threw the dumbbell and held him between my legs and pumped him up until he started trying to pull for it and then commanded "bring" and he shot out like a rocket. Praised him like crazy when he got to the dumbbell. Gonna try this method for a while I guess. What do you think about that?


Justen,

IF he goes out fast for other toys, then have him retrieve other toys more often then the DB. Lots of play/tug retrieve and then throw the DB once every 4th or 5th time. When you do the DB do some restraining and teasing up. I bet most of the people on the WDF wouldn't mind having your training "problem"


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

yeah I almost never use the dumbell when I am training. I use tugs and the reward for doing it correctly is a rousing game of tug.

You still haven't explained your forced retrieve....


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## Justen Haynes (Dec 1, 2010)

So when you guys train the retrieve you just throw balls over the jump and a frame? Do you make them do sit fronts and holds on the balls??? Or do you just release them when they come back over the jump? Thanks for all the advice guys!


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Justen Haynes said:


> So when you guys train the retrieve you just throw balls over the jump and a frame? Do you make them do sit fronts and holds on the balls??? Or do you just release them when they come back over the jump? Thanks for all the advice guys!



I use tugs instead of balls. I find them easier to play with and they stay where you throw them. I occasionally do a front sit, but usually just grab the tug when the dog gets close and do a vigorous game of tug. I reserve "hold" for the DB. I do a lot of
trades for the tug. I have the dog bring back the DB and I'll hold a tug in my hand under my chin and get the dog to focus on the tug while I tell him to hold. The dog seems almost hypnotized by a slow up and down movement of the tug.
Refer to the DVD "The Easy Way to Retrieve"


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Justen Haynes said:


> So when you guys train the retrieve you just throw balls over the jump and a frame? Do you make them do sit fronts and holds on the balls??? Or do you just release them when they come back over the jump? Thanks for all the advice guys!



If you're training the whole exercise as one exercise then you're asking for trouble.

Unfortunately I don't have vids of the whole process but this is a vid from a year ago where I was just beginning to shape the retrieves. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSZEF_ATgcM

Obviously, I started with fetch. From 9wks on we played fetch. Then I started asking him to come and sit in front of me with the toy. Then as you can see in the video, I only marked when he wasn't chewing.

Then when I taught the jump. I would just direct him over and back but I started with him in a down on the far side of the jump so he was used to jump over and to me before jumping away from me.

Then I did it with the wall.

Now I have all of the parts trained separately. And when its time to put them together, there is almost no stress. 

The real key is not to have any bad associations with the dumb bell. I train jumps three times per week at the club and 8/10 I use various objects, a tug, a hat, a shoe, a shirt, plastic bottle, a ball or whatever and the other couple of times I use a dumb bell.


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## Justen Haynes (Dec 1, 2010)

Thanks for all the info Chris. I have done the same thing. We did jumps, wall, fetch, etc...I have just completed them all. So when I train I just need to be throwing different stuff over the jump and wall and rarely make him do a sit front pretty much... Thank you guys...


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

I thought you said it was a forced retrieve. Please explain what you did that was forced, you're the one with issues, we're trying to help you.


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Maybe the below technique might work. Worth a try.

When you toss the dumbbell, throw it in a way that it rolls away after it lands (no back spin to stop it). Send the dog while it is rolling on the ground, time it so that it stops as the dog reaches it (or he could hurt his teeth). Maybe the prey response from seeing a moving dumbbell will speed him up. If it does then do 2 sessions this way then switch back to regular throw (back spin so it lands and stops). Hope it helps.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Justen, do you use any marker training at all? It's great for rewarding each and every phase of the retrieve. That includes a fast go out to the dumbell.


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## Justen Haynes (Dec 1, 2010)

I do use some marker training. 2 questions for you guys. How do I mark and reward him for a good go out to the dumbbell/toy? When you guys are running the jump and wall I understand the use of the toy vs the dumbbell, but do you make the dog sit in heel position when you toss the toy over the objects?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Justen Haynes said:


> I do use some marker training. 2 questions for you guys. How do I mark and reward him for a good go out to the dumbbell/toy? When you guys are running the jump and wall I understand the use of the toy vs the dumbbell, but do you make the dog sit in heel position when you toss the toy over the objects?


You need a YES marker that a reward is imminent and a good marker meaning you're on the right path. Throw the tug and if the dog has nice speed going out you can say good....good....good......good.......good
all the way out and back and then YES when the dog fronts with DB or tug and release with play.
Look into Bridge and Target training or Synalia
As far as maintaining heel, make sure you have it on the flat before moving to the jumps. Make a motion to throw the tug but don't if the dog breaks. IF the dog breaks, mark with a No
and reposition.


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## Justen Haynes (Dec 1, 2010)

Got it. That is what I do. Good for keep doing what you are doing, and yes when he gets back. As far as everytime I throw the toy over the jump or wall do I make him sit in the heel position, or just throw it back over the jump everytime he returns?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Justen Haynes said:


> Got it. That is what I do. Good for keep doing what you are doing, and yes when he gets back. As far as everytime I throw the toy over the jump or wall do I make him sit in the heel position, or just throw it back over the jump everytime he returns?



It depends on the dog. If the dog will front when you want him to? Then I wouldn't worry about it. Maybe be moving or standing sideways when he returns and not standing in the normal front position.


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

Do you throw a fun toy he likes, while he is in some sort of a stationary position, then release him to the toy after it has stopped moving using "free" and get a nice motivated run to the toy, but when you try the same with the dumbbell and use your "bring" instead of the "free" he does it slowly?

Problem could be either with him associating the "bring" with running slowly anticipating some sort of a correction OR if you can get him to "bring" a fun toy with just as much speed, then the problem lies in the dubbell being seen as a low reward object. 

If it's a problem with the dumbbell, I would do separate session shaping value to the dumbbell. Use either a clicker or "yes", put the dumbbell on the ground and ignore the dog, don't encourage him, let him work it out on his own. If he looks at it, mark, treat! then if he goes forward to it, then if he picks it up, then if he carries it back... etc etc all bits at a time and all without any input or encouragement from you! You need to be a silent log except when you say yes and treat. Pretty soon just holding the dumbell becomes a self satisfying action and you will see the speed to it increase.


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## Leri Hanson (Apr 3, 2008)

I would think whoever helped you with the force method would be the best one to talk to about how to work it. Or, your current club members or training director. They have experience and know you and your dog.

Leri


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Please share your force retrieve method..with minimal compulsion, I for 3 am interested...


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> Please share your force retrieve method..with minimal compulsion, I for 3 am interested...


I for four. I'm completely confused about it.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I for four. I'm completely confused about it.


I tried it...but I let my dog be what she is for the most part..walk the fine line, much to my chagrin ...she DID NOT care for the ear pinch, and let me know about it right quick...


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Justen Haynes said:


> I do use some marker training. 2 questions for you guys. How do I mark and reward him for a good go out to the dumbbell/toy? When you guys are running the jump and wall I understand the use of the toy vs the dumbbell, but do you make the dog sit in heel position when you toss the toy over the objects?




Each and every behavior (sit, down) should be solid before you add something new other wise you are contaminating both behaviors. 
If the sit isn't solid and you expect the dog to hold it while you throw something you've just allowed/enforced a poor sit.


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

So far you said you did a forced retrieve. So far I have read no evidence of a force retrieve. Also No advice on a force retrieve. 
I will also ask WHAT IN YOUR OPINION IS A FORCED RETRIEVE? If it was truly forced there shouldn't be this discussion? imho


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I have gotten a PM regarding this. Thanks
It appears from the description that force was used on the hold. Unless I am reading it incorrectly. And sounds like it was not done as effectively as it could have been, because the results are varied, if I read it right.

I have almost zero experience with forced retrieve training.

I cannot say whether the work done has effected the speed to the dumbell or not...
but It does sound like many people have given some good advice
Thanks Justen for the explanation.


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

We don't use a retrieve exercise when teaching the retrieve. The whole process is back-chained. I can see where compulsion would cause the dog to go into a bit of avoidance to the point of equating the exercise with discomfort. 

Here is an overview of how we do it but the details are a little too much for an article to really encompass the whole process. You might be able to take something from it, however. 

http://www.wcgssc.com/index.php?categoryid=71


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Steve Burger said:


> We don't use a retrieve exercise when teaching the retrieve. The whole process is back-chained. I can see where compulsion would cause the dog to go into a bit of avoidance to the point of equating the exercise with discomfort.
> 
> Here is an overview of how we do it but the details are a little too much for an article.
> 
> http://www.wcgssc.com/index.php?categoryid=71


steve...thanks for posting..

it is an article


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

My obedience dog has a rock solid and fast retrieve and recall. I trained her by shaping and use of the clicker. She understands the concept of free shaping as I initially did excercises using a cardboard box - amazing how inventive they can be. So with the dumbell she became very excited as I clicked her for interacting with it. This really stimulated her interest in the dumbell.

Once I started throwing I also marked her speed, so if she ran fast I marked that and rewarded. 

It all came together and it is awesome, her favourite exercise. She also loves tug and her ball so she is pretty high drive. 

My other dog is much slower and more of a challenge, but with use of shaping and the clicker we are on our way. She too was trained with the cardboard box and really gets into interacting with the dumbell.

I couldnt force either of them, that would poison the dumbell immediately, it just isnt the way I have taught them.

I also agree that every part of the behaviour chain has to be rock solid and worked on separately before moving on. My dog had a great recall and front, a good stay at heel etc.before working on dumbell retrieve


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> steve...thanks for posting..
> 
> it is an article


 I know it's an article, I just wrote poorly. What I meant to convey is that it is difficult to describe the process in an article. You would have to watch the process several times to really start to get it, as there is a lot going on in this approach to teaching dumb bells.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Steve Burger said:


> I know it's an article, I just wrote poorly. What I meant to convey is that it is difficult to describe the process in an article. You would have to watch the process several times to really start to get it, as there is a lot going on in this approach to teaching dumb bells.


just thanking you and giving shit at the same time...
I appreciate the article, and have bookmarked it...


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

Steve Burger said:


> I know it's an article, I just wrote poorly. What I meant to convey is that it is difficult to describe the process in an article. You would have to watch the process several times to really start to get it, as there is a lot going on in this approach to teaching dumb bells.


The way your club teaches the retrieve is BRILLIANT!
Never seen dogs coming into front as fast and straight as we did on our recent visit. We have gotten the start of the retrieve on video so I will be doing it shortly with my SchH 3 GSD in hopes of improving his technique.

Love the article Steve But as you say, to truly benefit you need to go spend time at the WCGSSC in Surrey, BC. IMO


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Tracey Hughes said:


> Love the article Steve But as you say, to truly benefit you need to go spend time at the WCGSSC in Surrey, BC. IMO


Tracey,

I "might" consider a trip to Canada in the spring, but Denver is as far as I want to be till then


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