# Help with CHANGE OF POSITIONS



## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

Hey, I search just in-case it's a re-post but I found nothing.

I'm training the change of positions, and was looking for tips. 

1st issue, is the stand. It's coming , very very slowly. I'v heard a bunch of ideas on teaching this, however they have not worked on my Mal, but worked perfectly with my Kelpie....

2nd issue, I have heard of handlers using the sound of there voice to signal the different positions. Anyone do this? 

3rd issue, the positions look rather forced. I don't use corrections with him, it's all drive work. Any ideas?


This dog has it!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtIcbeiN3AU&feature=related

Any help would be great.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

I did teach the positions using different pitch/tone o voice. Worked out nicely. I had a heck of a time with it, and while my dog certainly isn't competition-ready or anything, I learned a lot along the way.

I your problem with the stand from a sit or a down position (or both)?

Any video of your dog?


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## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

Anne Vaini said:


> I did teach the positions using different pitch/tone o voice. Worked out nicely. I had a heck of a time with it, and while my dog certainly isn't competition-ready or anything, I learned a lot along the way.
> 
> I your problem with the stand from a sit or a down position (or both)?
> 
> Any video of your dog?



Stand issues are from both sit and down. Unfortunitely 

I don't have access to a video camera right now.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

What have you tried?

What is your dog doing (or not doing)?


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## Sam Bishop (May 8, 2008)

That dog has the positions - but he is going to creep like mad IMHO once he's out of his box - if that matters to you. 
The stand IME is the hardest to teach and takes a long time - do you use a marker word to signal the correct position and release to toy?
The forced look of your positions will probably fade once your dog feels more confident - he's probably just not sure.
The creeping thing is the hardest part - I think the positions themselves just come with reps and mega doses of patience. Be aware of what your body is doing - inadvertent cues are a big factor I think. You think that your dog "knows" the position by verbal cue - but as soon as you change your own body position and orientation to the dog - he suddenly doesn't have the faintest idea what you want. For creeping, you want the dog's front feet to stay still with his back feet doing the position changes - this is where the dog in the video is going to move a lot, I think, in trial. First work on the positions trying to create the correct body movement, and then work on creeping with use of a line or marker plate or whatever they call it - the position is only right if the front feet are on the spot.
Of course, this is only my opinion - I have 1 3 year old female mal with pretty good positions, and 1 12 month old mal who we are just banging our head on cue discrimination with sit and down - forget stand!!!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

t keep the dog from moving forward just work the positions at the top of stairs, on the end of a bench, at the edge of a table top.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Bob Scott said:


> t keep the dog from moving forward just work the positions at the top of stairs, on the end of a bench, at the edge of a table top.



I did this for what 6 months? a year? I didn't have any luck with it. Teaching her to back up on cue did work. Working at an open doorway did work. We haven't move past that yet. Haven't put much time or thought into it after she finally learned the "Stand."


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## Chad Byerly (Jun 24, 2008)

[I haven't trialed a dog, and have only barely trained as mentioned below... my dogs worked positions on the edge of something elevated, like Bob mentioned]

The way to avoid creeping definately seems to be teaching the dog to keep the front feet in place, as Sam described. 
(fold back to down, skooch butt forward to sit,...)

Kay Laurence (UK trainer, http://www.learningaboutdogs.com/) thinks that often dogs need to practice the movements and build strength before being able to strongly and fluidly change positions, especially with the specific ways that we trainers prefer. So, you can lure back and forth between two positions in short sessions. I think you do this without your cues. These drills should help build the dog's strength and speed.

No cues reminds me of Morten Egtvedt and Cecilie Koeste (Norwegian trainers, http://www.canis.no/, http://www.canisclickertraining.com/), who I believe also like to have their dogs do drills of two positions. Those Norwegians "protect" their cues, and often only put a cue on chained behaviors just before a trial. But the way they train is a whole other issue (their obedience book will be out in English someday, I hope).

The above trainers train military and police K9, coach bitesports, and are all high level obedience trainers and instructors.

I also agree that the forced look on your dog is probably a sign of confusion. More rewards and a clear understanding of what's required (plus maybe strength building) should give the dog confidence and change his demeanor. Good luck.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Oh God no.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Wrong button.

Here are the things that I see people do that make the change of positions a mess.

1, They do 90000 downs and sits to every stand.

2, They try and teach everything at once.

3, They fall for the teach on a table and the dog won't go forward routine.

4, They do not teach the positions correctly in the first place.

5, accept moving about.


97% of the problem is the stand. Change the word so that it doesn't start with "S" The other is moving forward. Make a 3 sided "box out of pvc and teach the dog to NOT put his feet on it. Stay close until he gets it. Do not call the dog to you, go to the dog. Balance out the reward so you are not always doing something stupid like throwing it in front of the dog, but dropping it in front. Don't make this exercise a lot of fun, just some fun.

Separate the commands so that you work one each day until you stop seeing the dog guessing. Think "balance" if you went past that part to fast, and back up.

Once the dog is doing the command from a distance and not moving towards you.....sure sign that you are going to fast, put them all together one day and make it a down stay for 45 seconds, sit stay for 45 seconds and a stand stay for 45 seconds.

Those are some random thoughts, as I am tired. I have watched the know it alls and the I don't knows and the Oh shit you are ****ING kidding me's have problems with this exercise.

It is a pain in the ass, and when I see a dog do them and cringe, I laugh my mother****ing head off. Stoopid dogs.


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## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

Sam Bishop said:


> That dog has the positions - but he is going to creep like mad IMHO once he's out of his box - if that matters to you.
> The stand IME is the hardest to teach and takes a long time - do you use a marker word to signal the correct position and release to toy?
> The forced look of your positions will probably fade once your dog feels more confident - he's probably just not sure.
> The creeping thing is the hardest part - I think the positions themselves just come with reps and mega doses of patience. Be aware of what your body is doing - inadvertent cues are a big factor I think. You think that your dog "knows" the position by verbal cue - but as soon as you change your own body position and orientation to the dog - he suddenly doesn't have the faintest idea what you want. For creeping, you want the dog's front feet to stay still with his back feet doing the position changes - this is where the dog in the video is going to move a lot, I think, in trial. First work on the positions trying to create the correct body movement, and then work on creeping with use of a line or marker plate or whatever they call it - the position is only right if the front feet are on the spot.
> Of course, this is only my opinion - I have 1 3 year old female mal with pretty good positions, and 1 12 month old mal who we are just banging our head on cue discrimination with sit and down - forget stand!!!



Sam this was a big help.... having other trainers tell me this is hard to train is also a big help. It does not look very hard to train into a dog, but it's testing me already.

Many good tips from all posts, thanks again, I think I have enough to get me to the next step.
-ted


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Having known that one when it was really young, I would use food, and not a toy.


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## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Having known that one when it was really young, I would use food, and not a toy.



Cool, thanks for the tip.

I'm also thinking about having a 2nd person beside him while I call out the position to guide him if he starts to stumble.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Where are you at ??


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## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Where are you at ??


he's got down, and sit nicely, but the stand will only come if I'm standing right beside him.

Any way i can make the stand super fun for him? its really forced, the reason I can see for the forced stand is because he's not comfortable with it yet, because i have not used any compulsion on this exercise.


P.s. he does not seem to be creeping, which is nice, If I see creeping I will try and stop it ASAP


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Have you trained the stand from a front position? That seems to be the place to start to eliminate the confusion. Sounds like your dog isn't generalizing very well at this point.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I would just stick with it next to him for now. Without seeing it, I would think that he just doesn't know the command.

You could try some simple stuff like telling him to wait and move to the front of him, and then back, and then reward him.

It really sounds like a balance issue, and he is not sure if he is not supposed to be sitting, or whatever at this point.

Just do the baby steps for a while longer.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

I rarely completely disagree with you, Jeff - this might be a first.

I would NOT continue practicing / training this from heel. It's wasted training time. This is not the picture you will present to the dog for the trial. 

Train from the front. Start over. Your dog will have REALLY no clue what you're asking for. A fresh start gives you a chance to eliminate confusion and get the enthusiasm you are looking for.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

When you have actually done this exercise in competition, then maybe you can disagree with how it is trained.

Playing around in the backyard does not count.

The dog has to do a sit or a down or a stand from the heel. Try to remember that you do not actually train this sport.


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## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> When you have actually done this exercise in competition, then maybe you can disagree with how it is trained.
> 
> Playing around in the backyard does not count.
> 
> The dog has to do a sit or a down or a stand from the heel. Try to remember that you do not actually train this sport.



I have to agree with Jeff on this one, if my dog is not solid doing it in a heel, the probability of him learning it from stage one, in front of me..... seems very slim.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

At my last trial, I had to tell the dog to stand, and move out to start the exercise.

She just doesn't know the sport. Should have kept quiet. LOL


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Yeah Ted as Jeff, Annaliese, and Bob say baby steps as this position is the hardest to teach. 

I trained Tatch on a table at first so she wouldn't creep. Then we only worked at heel position for a very short time to guide her and then handler moved to the front. We had a bitch of a time getting the 'Stand' as well at first. We actually used a lead around her belly and gently with soft voiced commands guided her into the position .. Marked it and rewarded it. We only needed to use the belly lead once. Once the dog knows what you want you can take it to the next step. Sounds like he might not know what you are asking of him right now.

Change your command to something else too I use French .. So it is "Debout" .. For that command for us. Something that can't be mistaken for a similar sounding command. 

Here is a link with commands in different languages with pronunciation. http://www.elitek9.com/Dog Commands/index.htm How do the commands for change of position roll off the tongue in Greek Ted? Are you still thinking of doing Greek commands with him? 

While working the 'Debout' as he gets it, make it longer and reward him for holding the position not just for taking the position. Make it fun for him and don't put a lot of pressure on him at first or get frustrated he is a smart dog he will get it.


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## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

Geoff Empey said:


> Yeah Ted as Jeff, Annaliese, and Bob say baby steps as this position is the hardest to teach.
> 
> I trained Tatch on a table at first so she wouldn't creep. Then we only worked at heel position for a very short time to guide her and then handler moved to the front. We had a bitch of a time getting the 'Stand' as well at first. We actually used a lead around her belly and gently with soft voiced commands guided her into the position .. Marked it and rewarded it. We only needed to use the belly lead once. Once the dog knows what you want you can take it to the next step. Sounds like he might not know what you are asking of him right now.
> 
> ...


Thanks Geoff, you are always a big help. 
All his commands are in Greek. SIT/DOWN/STAND in greek all sound very different, so that is not an issue. I'm going to trying things with food, instead of balls today. I have a lot of good ideas.
Thanks all.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Ted Efthymiadis said:


> I have to agree with Jeff on this one, if my dog is not solid doing it in a heel, the probability of him learning it from stage one, in front of me..... seems very slim.



Once he knows the command Ted it doesn't matter where the dog is in relation to you ... stand means stand heel, front or behind .. 

For example I'll go behind Tatch and work the positions while she is waiting to be fed in the kitchen. As her motivation is then the slop in the bowl and she will scoot forward a few inches every time. I give the aaa aaa .. [-X and recall her to heel behind the border to the kitchen entrance move back and start over.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

> The dog has to do a sit or a down or a stand from the heel.


Right. A 1-in-3 chance of it. Versus from the front where you know it will be in there.

I started training this the way Mike Ellis does it, from the front, teaching the dog to pop it's hind up into a stand while moving backwards.

I didn't invent it.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Well ****ing congrats to you skippy.

Not only did you not invent it, you butchered what you thought you were supposed to learn.

What happens to that pop up when the dog is not reactive and just looks at you ?? Oooooops, never have trained this, don't know the sport, and should stop mangling Mikes work.

Pay attention to what I am saying, you might learn something......but then again, Mike is pretty easy to understand, so I doubt that you'll get much from me except the shut up face.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Ted go to a plumbing supply/hardware store and buy a length of potable h2O 1/2" white PVC plastic with 2 - 90o elbows and a box of 3/4" drywall screws. 

We made a 'U' shaped box sized like the regulation painted box with the front with the screws sticking up (like a bed of nails) so the dog would get pinched if it moved forward. You need to predrill the piece as just slamming the screws into the PVC will crack it. Place the screws about 3-4 per inch. I also kept a piece without the screws as well so it looks more trial like to. I'll take my "bed of nails" out and take some pictures and post later today. If you work BB steady at it you could move into the PVC box soon enough.


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## Chad Byerly (Jun 24, 2008)

Chad Byerly said:


> [I haven't trialed a dog, and have only barely trained as mentioned below... my dogs worked positions on the edge of something elevated, like Bob mentioned]
> ...


I meant that in the past I had taught positions on the edge of tables or boxes or whatever, and in the future I'll still have my dogs get on stuff and do positions just for fun, not to teach.

It can be interesting to read other's suggestions.

(does anyone use the method of releasing to behind the dog for reward, or marking and throwing a ball over their head so they turn and run to get it?)


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Are we discussing teaching the 'stand out of motion' stand - schutzhund obedience, or 'stand' as CKC type obedience... stand from sit, stand from down, stand for exam? 

Different picture for the dog, so different methods for each, I would think. Been playing around with both with my dog, but not sure I have a lot to offer in the way of advice, so picking up ideas here, too.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

> What happens to that pop up when the dog is not reactive and just looks at you ?? Oooooops, never have trained this, don't know the sport, and should stop mangling Mikes work.


Break it down and make it even simpler. Yes, I have struggled with 2 dogs with the way I learned, but it wasn't impossible. I learned a lot along the way!

It's not that complicated. The dog is confused. It doesn't understand what it is expected to do. Rehashing the same *might* work, but *might* also create a conditioned stress response to the cue. Each time the behavior is rehearsed while the dog is still confused, it will get worse.

The stress needs to be removed. This can be done by starting over from the front position, rather than continueing to work at heel.

The dog needs to understand what it is expected of it. Giving the dog some freedom to make choices and selectively reward the desired behavior will help the dog actively learn. It takes a lot of patience at first, but the learning curve is quick!

There are many ways in which to train any behavior. My point is that this dog needs a change in scenery and a fresh start.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

I was going to add a note but edit time was up.

If your dog screws up a stand, you lose a couple points at a trial. If my dog screws up a stand, somebody falls down and gets hurt - I might get sued. Just because I don't trial doesn't mean that I don't know anything about anything.


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## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

Geoff Empey said:


> Ted go to a plumbing supply/hardware store and buy a length of potable h2O 1/2" white PVC plastic with 2 - 90o elbows and a box of 3/4" drywall screws.
> 
> We made a 'U' shaped box sized like the regulation painted box with the front with the screws sticking up (like a bed of nails) so the dog would get pinched if it moved forward. You need to predrill the piece as just slamming the screws into the PVC will crack it. Place the screws about 3-4 per inch. I also kept a piece without the screws as well so it looks more trial like to. I'll take my "bed of nails" out and take some pictures and post later today. If you work BB steady at it you could move into the PVC box soon enough.


I remember Yako using the bed of nails in Montreal.

I'll make one if he starts to move forward. thanks


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## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

leslie cassian said:


> Are we discussing teaching the 'stand out of motion' stand - schutzhund obedience, or 'stand' as CKC type obedience... stand from sit, stand from down, stand for exam?
> 
> Different picture for the dog, so different methods for each, I would think. Been playing around with both with my dog, but not sure I have a lot to offer in the way of advice, so picking up ideas here, too.



French ring:

The dog is told to sit, stand and down in a pre-drawn order. the handler is 18m away. points are lost for creeping forward during the positions, or failure to perform a position


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I read through the thread and I'm still confused on exactly what it is BB is doing, vs not doing. When you say "stand" does he take a different postions, shift his weight, start to go up then go back down, ?? Will he stand from a sit, but not a down, or vice versa? 

There are lots of ways to teach this, more detail on the exact issue would be helpful. Also, don't worry to much about the attitude right now, sounds like he's a little stressed/confused, once he is more clear on the exercise it's not that hard to bring attitude back if you want it. I try to keep the positions kind of medium/low on the fun scale though, I find if my dogs are to amped up about their reward they don't think clearly (just randomly throw me positions vs the one I want) or they start to creep and otherwise move around. If they are relaxed but not really in drive, then I get better positions but still without that completely stressed out look.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Ted Efthymiadis said:


> French ring:
> 
> The dog is told to sit, stand and down in a pre-drawn order. the handler is 18m away. points are lost for creeping forward during the positions, or failure to perform a position


Thanks for clarifying, I'm not that familiar with Ring exercises. 

Why would you teach this from heel position, if in trial, you are in front of the dog?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Because if you read back a bit, that is where the dog is doing them from right now.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: If your dog screws up a stand, you lose a couple points at a trial. If my dog screws up a stand, somebody falls down and gets hurt - I might get sued. Just because I don't trial doesn't mean that I don't know anything about anything. 

First off, we are not talking imaginary old folk helper dogs, we are talking ringsport. And yes, from your reply, that is pretty much what is showing.


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Chad Byerly said:


> (does anyone use the method of releasing to behind the dog for reward, or marking and throwing a ball over their head so they turn and run to get it?)


Yes, I do this because it keeps the anticipation of forging and moving off of postions out of the equation. I usually toss left/behind the dog for heeling and over the dog's head for sit/down. Never for stands. Too much temptation to not lock up! The reward on stands (my position is maybe only one or two steps in front of the dog in the beginning) comes when I go back into heel postion and the dog is locked up and looking at me. Then it's off left and behind the dog.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

leslie cassian said:


> Why would you teach this from heel position, if in trial, you are in front of the dog?


In trial the dog can be left in any of the 3 positions (ie you tell the dog X, then you walk the 18 meters away) so the dog must be able to take all 3 positions from a heel position. 

One of the biggest mistakes I see with Ring handlers, and I think Jeff mentioned this also, is that we tend to teach sit and down from puppyhood and only later add in stand. 

Ted, something to try with BB is always rewarding on the stand. If you give more details on the specific issue I can try to give some other things to do, but one thing I do regardless of the method I'm currently utilizing is to reward on whatever position is giving the dog problems. Until they are almost over offering that position, then we balance the rewards out. But a training session might go like this. Leave dog in sit, walk away, tell them stand, reward when they do. Leave them in down, walk away, tell them to stand, reward. Leave them in sit, walk away, tell them down, tell them stand, reward. Etc. Only asking for 1-2 changes, rewarding in the hard one. After some reps of that (maybe just one session, maybe a week of sessions depending on the dog) then I will do something like leave in sit, stand, down, stand, reward and eventually work up to 8-10 changes before the reward, but still rewarding most often on the problem position.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Chad Byerly said:


> (does anyone use the method of releasing to behind the dog for reward, or marking and throwing a ball over their head so they turn and run to get it?)


Yes! Even on the training field when we are at 18m. I'll walk back and go behind the dog and recall from time to time and give her her ball then. All depends if the dog is creeping or not. My dog is 98% right now in the positions .. and you guessed it the one she ****s up that 2% is 'debout'. :-$


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## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> In trial the dog can be left in any of the 3 positions (ie you tell the dog X, then you walk the 18 meters away) so the dog must be able to take all 3 positions from a heel position.
> 
> One of the biggest mistakes I see with Ring handlers, and I think Jeff mentioned this also, is that we tend to teach sit and down from puppyhood and only later add in stand.
> 
> Ted, something to try with BB is always rewarding on the stand. If you give more details on the specific issue I can try to give some other things to do, but one thing I do regardless of the method I'm currently utilizing is to reward on whatever position is giving the dog problems. Until they are almost over offering that position, then we balance the rewards out. But a training session might go like this. Leave dog in sit, walk away, tell them stand, reward when they do. Leave them in down, walk away, tell them to stand, reward. Leave them in sit, walk away, tell them down, tell them stand, reward. Etc. Only asking for 1-2 changes, rewarding in the hard one. After some reps of that (maybe just one session, maybe a week of sessions depending on the dog) then I will do something like leave in sit, stand, down, stand, reward and eventually work up to 8-10 changes before the reward, but still rewarding most often on the problem position.


Thanks Kadi, the stand is by far the weakest, his sit is good, his down is good, but the stand is like 50%, even in a heel. So I must admit, he must be still a rather unsure about the stand as a position. 
I will continue to mark and reward like crazy, until it's much stronger, and use some of the other tips .

I can see how this would totally be my fault, when I tought the between the leg quard, he was the same way 50/50, but I kept marking for a few more days and viola!

Thank you all.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

leslie cassian said:


> Why would you teach this from heel position, if in trial, you are in front of the dog?


Before you move ahead with the training for the exercise Leslie the dog needs to understand what is required of it. Being beside the dog in heel position is easiest position to train from. Especially if you have to physically manipulate the dog into the position or even lure it into position with food without the dog forging ahead. 

As others pointed out in FR 2 and 3 levels the positions can start with a stand and even the absence of handler exercise at those levels 'could' be done in a stand. 

Some people may code exercises with the way they place the dog prior to placements. Sit for DOH, Down for attaque d'efface, Stand for Guarde au ferme. Just don't get caught doing the stop attack coded level 3 exercise .. :^o


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Thanks everyone for the explanation. Once again, my unfamiliarity with Ring is showing.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Here is what I keep my bed of nails in. It is a 2" drain pipe with a glue on cap at one end and a screw in cap so I can store the pieces and not have the screws catch stuff in the trunk of the car. 










Here are the parts showing the separate front bars one with the screws and one without. As well as the cap for the drain pipe. 










Close up view of the PVC with the drywall screws with the assembled box behind .. 










Sasha doing a Debout in the box without the screws ..










Doing a Couche with the screws on the front of the box. 










As you can see it is pretty clean and cost me about 10 bucks to put together.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

I played around with this last night. It had been ages. Since the last time I worked on it, I taught my dog to back up on cue. Because the stand and the back were taught out of the same behavior change, she doesn't creep forward on the stand.

Now this questions applies to sport rules: I walk up and she sits. I give a stand, and she pops into a stand moving back about 6 - 8 inches from heel position. In sport, is that a penalty?

I thought that change was interesting. I taught her the stand position at heel from a stand-in-motion. I did not expect her to back up in that situation.

And I discovered a problem - her down suddenly sucks. (when did that happen? :lol: ) I need some video of this!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Good thing you are giving advice, in one day you got your dog to back up and forget the down.

Someone get this girl a stupid food topic, before she accidently trains her dog to kill her.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Anne Vaini said:


> Now this questions applies to sport rules: I walk up and she sits. I give a stand, and she pops into a stand moving back about 6 - 8 inches from heel position. In sport, is that a penalty?


If she changes position without a command, that is a penality. If she moves from the original spot that is also a penality, regardless of wether it's forward, backward or sideways. However, in FR the penalities are by 1/2 meter increments (about 20 inches) so until she moves 20 inches you wouldn't start to loose points.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Anne Vaini said:


> Now this questions applies to sport rules: I walk up and she sits. I give a stand, and she pops into a stand moving back about 6 - 8 inches from heel position. In sport, is that a penalty?


It doesn't say specifically that is a penalty. According to this it is not. But for fluid movement and applying the K.I.S.S. philosophy we want the dog in the commanded position and usually give a secondary optional command "don't move" and train for the dog not to move. In our training we do our initial placement (this is usually for bite work) and if the dog forges or whatever we will restart the exercise. Basically telling the dog that once it is in the proper position and it follows the steps we put out for it, reward will come. edit: and this for initial placement of the dog in heel position not for the change of position exercise. 



http://ringsport.org/Rulebook2009.pdf said:


> 1.12.2 For all exercises, the handler is obliged to command an initial position (the name of the dog is optional), or will be penalized 2 points, except for the Guard of Object, where it is forbidden. The dog *must take* the commanded position or will be penalized 1 point. The dog will have 5 seconds to take the position, but is not required to maintain it; after the 5 seconds, if the handler doesn’t re-command, the judge will authorize the start of the exercise. The penalty for re-commanding the initial position is 0.5 point. If the handler changes the choice of initial position at the time of the same placement, it is considered an irregular command. (Chapitre 1, p. 14, Mise en Place et Commandments Obligatoire)


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Good thing you are giving advice, in one day you got your dog to back up and forget the down.
> 
> Someone get this girl a stupid food topic, before she accidently trains her dog to kill her.


Thanks for the moral support Jeff! :lol:

Nah, it's my fault. I got sloppy with her cues over the last few months because I wasn't planning on using them! No worries. Give me 15 minutes and we'll fix it!


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I haven't read all the posts, Jeff's I did as his mind is never so complicated as the rest.

If this is the "stand" in IPO or Schutzhund, just think. The dog has to heel and then stand still.

It's not so difficult, no tables, no cliffs which will result in his sudden death if he doesn't stop.

Imagine it in your mind. The dog has to move forward and then stop while you move on. There are all sorts of tricks such as "fences" allowing you to move on and not the dog, etc. etc. etc.

Some dogs allow themselves to be combed in stand - a bit difficult, discipline is neede but a begin is guaranteed, depending on intelligence of handler.

Heel with the dog - give command "stand" place yourself before it's appealing snout and reward. 

I find that many "easy" exercises fail because of constant repitition.

If this is IPO / Schutzhund, get each position to "sit" before you do the next.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Ouch! too late to correct.

I meant to say that "too many exercises fails because of "lack" of constant repitition.


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## Teena Patel (Apr 7, 2009)

*Unpredictable behaviors*

Hi All!

I have a question about dogs with a high predatory drive, very easily focuse and fixated on fast motion/movement... but even in their most relaxed state, are easily set off.

We have a dog (about 8months old) who was sitting out on the deck next to a 5 month old intact rotty puppy, and withing a split second he got up and nailed the rotty puppy...causing one puncture... but really out of nowhere.....

The 8month old dog, is great around a 12week old puppy.

What is this as a result of?

I have a GSD who displays identical behaviors (4years old) and cant be around puppies at all.... he has ALWAYS gone after them resulting in a puncture.


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## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

*Re: Unpredictable behaviors*



Teena Patel said:


> Hi All!
> 
> I have a question about dogs with a high predatory drive, very easily focuse and fixated on fast motion/movement... but even in their most relaxed state, are easily set off.
> 
> ...



Teena, really your issues has NOTHING TO DO with this thread. 
Most posters don't mind giving advice, but it needs to be posted in the correct place.


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## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I haven't read all the posts, Jeff's I did as his mind is never so complicated as the rest.
> 
> If this is the "stand" in IPO or Schutzhund, just think. The dog has to heel and then stand still.
> 
> ...


This is the FR change of positions.


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

Ted, I didn't read all the other responses-don't have a lot of time today:-o so this may not be helpful to you, just in case...this is how I trained the positions...and I have a couple of nutcase mals....

I start on a table, putting the dog right to the end of the table, so when he downs, he learns to bring his body/legs backward- not forward. some people referred to it as a chandeler down? I don't care what it is called as long as it works-but at this point, it is just basic obedience that you are starting.....

initially, I work all the positions right beside the dog, sit,down,stand and mix them up..once they got it 100% just by the verbal command- I move out -increasing the distance and staying on leash at this point...when they get it and are doing this 100%....I move it to the ground....

I have a barrier, but now I use two prongs...back tie on a post with one-bring them out so there is almost no slack....now I first start close, then increase my distance,...the leash I am using is also attached to another prong collar....once they are getting it,meaning absolutely no corrections, no tension....I move to a long line on both, but have a strip of wood in front of them painted white( thin as it would be in the grass during trial)-but with carpet tacks in it, and they are pointing up...if the dog creeps, it is not going to feel good- a clear message is sent- don't creep past this line...then move to no leash.....and later adding distractions...all as you would teach any basic obedience, but just giving them the clear lesson - NO Creeping allowed[-X

good luck...then practice everywhere....if you are heeling your dog, he does an auto sit, then have him stand, or down then stand...mix it up...when you play ball, etc....same thing....couchay...daboo, assi...etc....make it fun!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Jesus, who taught you this ?? YIKES


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## Amy Swaby (Jul 16, 2008)

Mo I think you mean the concertina down


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

Amy, yep.... that is what I meant thanks,#-o  but still don't care what it is called-as long as the dog does it....
Jeff ....I was taught from some very very successful people involved in Ring years back ....if this type of training is not your style, that is ok ...but it does work, and works well. If it is the carpet tacks that are causing your " yikes"..it is probably not what you could be thinking....I take great care of my dogs and I don't believe in animal cruelty....you don't put the tacks all the way through the board,you aren't trying to puncture the dog, or make the board stick to their pads.... just enough to feel a slight sharp sensation on the board-the handler could even step on it with bare feet, not get hurt, but it is uncomfortable...I would hope someone would not put the entire tack sticking up...](*,)


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: but now I use two prongs.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

I've was thinking on the whole carpet tack, screws thing. I'm not a fan. But it has a purpose. So I was thinking about how to accomplish this purpose otherwise.

At this point, I have not used any sort of line on the ground with Emma. But she is ready! 

We were working indoors, so I laid a broom down. I used clicker/marker training to teach her to "find" a spot 18" back from the bar. This was really fast and easy - she was already orienting herself with things in the room. I set her back because she sometimes forgets to kick her hind end back on the down, and because she can see it. A visual cue is easier to fade than a tactile cue.

It worked for us. Obviously a long ways to go to develop it, but in 10 minutes, she learned that she is to stand perpendicular to the line, 18" back from it. She learned that this is the location in which to change positions. 

And the best part (IMO) - she has learned to re-orient herself to that location if she moves away. For example, she moved froward into a down. I gave the sit next because this is a weak point whenre she would typically end up scooting forward between the two positions. Nope, she checked out the line and moved back about 6" for the sit so she was in the right place.

I'm probably re-inventing the wheel again, but I LOVE a thinking dog.

I recall hearing that it's OK to start your dog behind the line. Can anyone verify or debunk that?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Next time we have a trial inside someones house, I will make sure you get a copy of the rules.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Next time we have a trial inside someones house, I will make sure you get a copy of the rules.


:lol:


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Anne Vaini said:


> I recall hearing that it's OK to start your dog behind the line. Can anyone verify or debunk that?





NARA 2009 Rulebook said:


> 1.12.1.7 The handler is obliged to place the dog in the starting rectangle (not including the tail). The handler may stand to the right or left of the dog or behind the dog as he or she chooses, provided that the handler is not in contact with the dog or standing over the dog, and never beyond its shoulder. The dog shall always be placed in the direction of the work under penalty of termination of the exercise. (Chapitre 1, p. 14, Mise en Place et Commandments Obligatoire)
> 
> 1.12.3 The dog must be placed in the direction of the work within a tolerance of 45 degrees to the right or the left. By definition, the direction of work for the Absence and Thrown Food is the blind where the handler will hide. There is no direction of work for the Object Guard nor the Search, which means that at the beginning of these exercises, the handler may place the dog in any direction he or she chooses. (Chapitre 1, p. 14, Mise en Place et Commandments Obligatoire)


It shouldn't matter if there is a line or not any ways. Walk up to the starting point with the dog at heel stop at the line and place the dog, end of it. 

If it doesn't work they'll let you screw it up 3 times with penalty .. 4th time it is a big fat zero .. [-X 



NARA 2009 Rulebook said:


> 1.12.1.2 The handler must face the direction of the exercise (except for the Guard of Object), then must give only one command of placement (sit, down or stand) chosen by the handler except when a specific position is required by the exercise (i.e. Absence of Handler, Changes of Position, Food Refusal). The dog will be penalized if it does not take the commanded position. Any repetition of command will result in a penalty of 0.5 point, up to a maximum of four supplementary commands (beyond that, the exercise is terminated).
> (Chapitre 1, p. 13, Mise en Place et Commandments Obligatoire)


Hope that helps your indoor trial!  I say get the Hamster to be the Judge!


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