# Belgian Malinois



## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Do they ever use Mali's to move cattle or just sheep mainly? I have been watching them in my Schutzhund club they are fast but I don't know if they would duck out of the way like a cattle dog would...if necessary. I don't know much about herding dogs but they seem like dogs that would excel at it.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I've used my Malinois to work cattle when I've had the chance. Actually when they get cattle at the facility I herd at for trials my Malinois are some of the ones used to dog-break them, since they will fight/chase many of the dogs that herd out there. A friend uses his Malinois to work his cattle a lot more often, since he raises them for butcher vs being a weekend warrior like my dogs are.

My old girl Cali is 25 inches, so a big female, and she's only been kicked once working cattle that I'm aware of. When first working the cattle they tend to try to cram into a corner so she has to go back between them and the wall/fence (part of it is a sold wood wall, part is fencing). You can hear the "slams" of the hooves hitting the wall as they try to nail her while she's trying to push them out of the corner, but only once has she come out shaking her head and sneezing like she got kicked. I usually can't see her when this is going on, so I don't know how she's dodging (sideways, ducking, ???) but dodge she does.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I've used my Malinois to work cattle when I've had the chance. Actually when they get cattle at the facility I herd at for trials my Malinois are some of the ones used to dog-break them, since they will fight/chase many of the dogs that herd out there. A friend uses his Malinois to work his cattle a lot more often, since he raises them for butcher vs being a weekend warrior like my dogs are.
> 
> My old girl Cali is 25 inches, so a big female, and she's only been kicked once working cattle that I'm aware of. When first working the cattle they tend to try to cram into a corner so she has to go back between them and the wall/fence (part of it is a sold wood wall, part is fencing). You can hear the "slams" of the hooves hitting the wall as they try to nail her while she's trying to push them out of the corner, but only once has she come out shaking her head and sneezing like she got kicked. I usually can't see her when this is going on, so I don't know how she's dodging (sideways, ducking, ???) but dodge she does.


That sounds like a nice dog and fast if she only got hit once. Probably the herds get used to being moved around by dogs too right? Where as the cattle that have never seen a dog are the more dangerous ones to try to move.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Ben Thompson said:


> That sounds like a nice dog and fast if she only got hit once. Probably the herds get used to being moved around by dogs too right? Where as the cattle that have never seen a dog are the more dangerous ones to try to move.


In the sport herding world the stock sees so many different dogs that they almost have to try all of them. If the dog doesn't get their respect quickly it can go down hill. In the real world of herding the handler/herder isn't going to put up with a so, so dog so the stock possible doesn't learn it can punk a dog. 
The reallly good dogs don't pressure the stock any more then needed either. Not sure if you can really teach that for real work. 
Look at the dogs in the videos. They only engage when they absolutely have to. To much pressure and they loose control. Even the wild cattle in the video learn quickly that they aren't going to get away with anything and they settle down. 
Go to a herding trial/competition of weekend trialeres and you soon learn which particular calf/cow is going to test the dogs. From the get go some "competition" dogs have a time of it in moving stock and some just calmly walk in the pen/ring/field and even the stock you've seen punk a dog will fall in line with very little pressure from the dog. The dog reads the stock and the stock reads the dog......quickly.
Just as in the bite sports you will see dogs that you know would be doing a better job in more able hands. also some dogs that you know are "made" by the handler and would suck with someone of less ability.
That's good dogs and good training/handling.
Watching a good dog with a good handler is a joy. JM green opinion.


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## Tony McCallum (May 26, 2009)

A very good opinion l believe Bob.
Not enough is made of the "presence" of the good stock dogs, they are able to handle tough stock with only the force that is required. 
Often the rough and busy dogs are not really as tough as the calm , confident achievers, those are the dogs that face stock with that "Dirty Harry " approach, they will face up to a challenge with a "go ahead, make my day " l enjoy those dogs more than anything, and you can not train that in to them. They exude power.
Tony


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Thank you Tony!
That "presence" is what Terrasita (my herding teacher) saw in my SchIII dog Thunder. His only problem is me. :lol: 
My need  to be in control can put to much pressure on him and the gripping can start. 
Damn good dog when I let him be a dog! Just needs a better handler in the field with him. :grin: ;-)


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Well, I haven't met too many people that were born able to read what was going on between the stock and the dog mentally and Bob has that. Its great to train with someone that can really read a dog. It took me years to really be able to feel and read the mental relationship between the dog and the stock. He DOES have that mechanical robot obedience switch and Thunder and I will just have to keep working on that. So much in herding is about control which ultimately turns the dogs mental faculties off to place him where you want him. Probably works great with light runaway trial sheep. Dogs that have genetic quiet control become influenced by handler pressure and pretty soon they are erratic and they either shut down or redirect to the stock. Someone mentioned Manfred Heyne in a control thread. Heyne was about educating a dog regarding his job not robotic control and didn't believe in compulsion training of stock dogs if I remember correctly. He also what looked like really high prey dogs and solid nerves. He called it "attraction to the stock." Sure the ultimate dog is high attraction, high biddability. But ultimately you needed a dog that could work independently and had solid instincts. The problem today is that a really keen dog needs daily work to really progress him and that isn't always possible. There are a lot of weekend herders. Light sheep and really keen dogs that don't instinctually move off pressure is a bad recipe.

One of the statements by this weekend's clinician was how how arena trialing/work can ruin young dogs. The geographical set up is all wrong for the dog to work with his instinct so we resort to placement obedience. The keen dog will fight you on this tooth and nail. You're demanding that he disregard all instinct to control his stock and there is no ability to do so because he can't get outside of the flight zone to gain control. So you have to shut him down with obedience placement which he fights. The clinician was adamant that this is detrimental to the young dog and really something that you should only require of the more advanced dog.

Terrasita


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

I haven't seen it, but whose to say they can't work. Most folks who I know work Border Collies. As long as the dog will respond to you and understands what is asked of it, you could use an old cure dog and get the job done. Got one and sheep...try it!

The herding style and abilities of the BC make them hard to beat. A soft one is like having a stuufed animal helping you, a hard one can ruin sheep and young goats. Breath in...breath out...:grin:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Howard, there is a tiny little BC down here that MAY hit 30 lbs if she's wet. She can handle anything put in front of her and enjoy doing it.
Then you see a big, strong cattle dog that practically gets ran off the field. 
I'm not a huge fan of the BCs but watching ANY good dog is a pleasure.


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