# Punishment, aversives, and corrections



## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Let me preface this by saying: for one thread can everyone at least give everyother poster a minimal level of respect that they have at least tried to train a dog and has some experience. Whether it's your experience is debatable...but that does not make anyone person right. If response does make sense to you intellectually...ignore it, debate it, but for the sake of coming to conclusions; live and let live.

I say that because not to long ago I was pretty sure about a lot of things in dog training. Till, I had some good friends clear my perception of reality (and some enemies for that matter). 

I had one friend remind me of how little I have done thus far in dog training, and another show me my limitations by what I thought was correct.

My experience was this. I was training a dog more traditionally. reward based training with a mix of corrections. I got a dog, I considered, and still do to be exceptional in many areas. But I noticed that I failed to showcase some of these talents. I made a dog that had a great nose and good drive a dog in tracking that left me wanting. A dog in OB that has great willingness, good relationship but over time she got slower and slower. in bite work, a dog that had it all, good grip, fast strikes, solid grips...great nerve. but shitty secondary ob.

So, a friend told me to consider ditching the collars and trying to master one tool. the reward. He's not a PETA trainer by any means and has done well. world team appreances high placing in national comps. His thought was I need to master one skill before adding another. I have been doing this for 2 years. I say, I have learned very, very much...and am very pleased how much I have grown as a trainer.

But I am starting to get curious about correction. One thing I learned by limiting myself. my dog had a lot more to learn before adding collars. She did not know things as well as I suspected. I also learned how much punishment or my punisment was not working...punishment as I was doing it did not seem to be as effective as advertised. 

A theory I have come to believe is that discpline must be applied or you get a dog that is not mindful and at times will try to short cut it's way to a reward....like leaving early to go get a reward...this is probably the biggest. another is the dog will soon without care anticpate places to go to....like the escape position. I literally me running away from you and going to lay down at escape position. in essence they are performing the desired behavior with very little displine in doing it.

One of my new theories before I devel into this collar is. I do not think you can apply correction to multiple behaviors at once .It's to confusing to the dog. they learn that escape is impossible. the correction will just be applied somewhere else. So breaking a behavior apart in to tiny pieces and only correcting one thing till the dog has it. until the dog shows very reliably that they understand. then you can move on...that is a theory, I would not write a dog training book on it yet.

Another thing that is very confusing is there is much to be said in actual study about rewards and withholding reward to gain behavior. but very little of actual proven information on how to effectively apply a punishment. I see a lot of talk about how damaging it can be or how effective it can be in making a good little pack. but none of that has been my experience I.E. many purley positive people make claims that it must intiate a high stress response or fear response. In my mind, a little concern for my wishes is not such a bad thing. But I do see the problems that can be caused...it's not alll bull. But I do see the dogs who worry. The other problem I have encoutered is conditioned escalation...starting off with to little intensity, and overtime escalation causes the dog to condition itself to the aversive.

That's not everythin running through my small limited mind. but it's a start. I am not interested in a step by step plan on how to train a dog. I would like this to be a discussion on effective application of punishment with max effectiveness and little collateral damage...there has to be a way. A lot of people claim to have it...but few I see have a dog that proves it. I sure do not.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

interesting post and i have read it a few times
- hate to start in on definitions right off the bat, but :
are you referring to corrections as punishment, as in compulsion ? (applying any level of physical force to get compliance with the behavior you are trying to get )
- was the trainer who said to focus on rewards using the term as defined in operant conditioning ? (they can be positive or negative)
- using OC strictly by "the book", the dog can "do no wrong" since it is only rewarded for correct behaviors....the way i apply OC, corrections come WAY later down the road, and that was what i was assuming the trainer was referring to
- and the part about working ONE specific behavior at a time is much easier said than done and VERY often overlooked....i tend to see a cluster of behaviors as ONE behavior, and that has been a problem for me on many occasions
- i also think maybe a lot of the problems you have seen could come from corrections applied too soon rather than the correction itself, and that is often a result of impatience on the trainers part
...and this was a quick response, so maybe i need to think it over more


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

James if you will give me a setup example of exactly what you want to apply a correction to and how. I will be happy to jump in there with you. A lot of what your saying I learned the hard way. Some I was smart enough to learn from others lol.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I trained my SchIII, CDX to his titles with OC and no PHYSICAL corrections at all. That includes bite work.
I did it because I believed in it and wanted to see how far I could take it.
The club I belonged to insisted on it. Nothing wrong with that. I made the choice. 
I will forever use reward based OC but doing it totally without corrections takes a great understanding of the dog, the method AND good leadership skills. 
Don't know if I'll take it that far again. I have no problem with fair corrections.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

rick smith said:


> interesting post and i have read it a few times
> - hate to start in on definitions right off the bat, but :
> are you referring to corrections as punishment, as in compulsion ? (applying any level of physical force to get compliance with the behavior you are trying to get )
> - was the trainer who said to focus on rewards using the term as defined in operant conditioning ? (they can be positive or negative)
> ...


Rick. I am refering to punishment in the basic operant conditioning term. make a behavior go away by applying an aversive (something unpleasent).

And rewards I mean by only withholding and offering a reward (something desired) to get behaviors.

And one specific behavior- I am talking about like if I am trying to get the dog to stay with me in back transport. I do not worry about if the dogs downs instead of sit. I do not even pay attention to it. I just think correcting the dog for not staying with me. This of course is assuming I do everything within my knowledge and power prior to the correction to keep the dog with me. Like, I have the dog stationary and teach the dog to stay with me without moving, having the helper make attractions but still ask the dog to stay. then when that is as perfect as I can get it. then starting with the corrections.

And you very well could be correct on corrections applied to early. I think I have come to that conclusion already. that was one of the lessons learned by my training of removing the collars.


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

James Downey said:


> Rick. I am refering to punishment in the basic operant conditioning term. make a behavior go away by applying an aversive (something unpleasent).
> 
> And rewards I mean by only withholding and offering a reward (something desired) to get behaviors.


If you're going to quote the operant conditioning terms, witholding reward is also punishment. Negative punisment, instead of positive punishment... LOL  

If the training is not clear to the dog, you still won't get anywhere?


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Over the last few days I have been reading a lot on corrections thier seems to be 2 sides to the house. 
1. The trainers that use them. They have all the evidence in the world that corrections have a place and applied just so, sorry bob to use you...but applied fairly seems to be a common term amongst these people. Not saying they are wrong but I have yet see a person apply corrections, and the dog respond with thats fair. The truth is, the point of correction is to instill some fear in the dog that it happen again if they try to do the unwanted behavior again. And I am not trying to stir the pot here. but fair seems like a term the number one party in the house says so the corrections are socially acceptable.

Number 2 party in the house seems to be just as diluted: having thier terms and theories into why a dog should not be corrected. They site it causes confusion, worry (which I really do not mind if my dog has some respect for the power of correction, but I do get how it can cause paranoia in the dog). it can damage them physically...I can see that. But I am not talking about damaging the dog. They site it's ineffectiveness. That the dog will only offer the correct responses till they find away to not get caught. I suspect the answer to this is to not allow the dog to have an escape...but again, I do not many people doing this well. 

There has to be an answer to effective punishment that holds up in the long term. I believe that life is not without discpline, and one has to follow the rules. A life of cookies for the right behaviors and no cookies for the wrong behaviors in my experience leads to a dog who preforms the behaviors and will take chances from time to time at doing silly things...like leaving for a retrieve before told, or going back to the helper in the blind after being called out, leading off on the back transport. Also, on the flip side...I do not believe that a slave/ master relationship does anyone any good. 

another thing I have seen is that in strong dogs "who can take it". Do not fall apart but rather erode or build up slowly over time. The effect of each correction is not evident but over time....the dog either slowly goes flat and begrudginly behaves or becomes hectic and almost has no respect for what is being asked.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Not a problem James!
I think "applied fairly" can mean everything from a tap on the butt to a choke out, depending on the dog. 
I don't believe that it has to create fear in the dog. A bit of stress, maybe. With most it's nothing more then a reminder of what CAN come. That's where the fairness comes in. 
IF fear is the result then I think the correction went to far. How the dog recovers is then primary. 
I also believer there are dogs out there that you aren't going to create any fear. 
Some will just wait for payback.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

As to long term holding up, I don't believe that reward OR correction training will hold up without being refreshed in the dog's mind.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Anna Kasho said:


> If you're going to quote the operant conditioning terms, witholding reward is also punishment. Negative punisment, instead of positive punishment... LOL
> 
> If the training is not clear to the dog, you still won't get anywhere?


Okay so we are talking about positive punishment. 

So, how do you apply the positive punishment clearly so the dog responds and holds up over the long term.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

James Downey said:


> Okay so we are talking about positive punishment.
> 
> So, how do you apply the positive punishment clearly so the dog responds and holds up over the long term.


as soon as he recovers back to where he was supposed to be, IE forging on heeling, falls back into a correct heel, you reward.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Skinner believed that punshiment was not very effective. I think he had come to similar conclusions that I have.

But he did state what makes it "more" effective. 

1. it has to be immediatly following the behavior- well timed
2. it has to be strong but not overwhelming.-- fair
3. it has to be done every time the behavior happens.--consistent

But Skinner felt even with these controls in place punishment was still not very effective. he noticed that the behaviors were not as reliable that were taught with positive reiforcement and negative punishment. He did state that he thought negative reiforcement was effective. My guess is there is a component missing to punishment. And what makes me think this is I have seen times of magic...when a dog is corrected a few times or even once and the behavior is extingushed. Though I have been perplexed to why these times are different than others.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> as soon as he recovers back to where he was supposed to be, IE forging on heeling, falls back into a correct heel, you reward.


 
Now here's were it gets muddy. I get that idea. But I have seen, especially strong dogs. This becomes the order of events to a reward. Forge, correction, reward. The dog starts to elicit the forge, even with knowledge the correction is coming...and will take it. just to get to that reward. The correction becomes the marker.

Then what happens. The trainer, starts to up the correction....dog starts to become desensitized or the handler corrects earlier, and now we get confusion, or more of the same with the dog taking it to get the reward.


I know it may seem like I am being diffcult. But I am not. I have trained with people and done this myself....to where I see the dog turn 2. and when the dog is 6 and several thousand corrections later the dog has the same problem. according to the law of OC the dog should at least have a reduced occureance of these behaviors...yet they do it almost every single time. I bet everyone has had this problem to a degree or at minimium has seen it.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> As to long term holding up, I don't believe that reward OR correction training will hold up without being refreshed in the dog's mind.


I believe that also, I would expect some reoccurance of the behavior at a later time...they are always going to go back and try the quickest way from A to B. I do believe that training especially for IPO takes a bit of making it all come together on one day.

I guess for arguments sake. I think the missing componet maybe, how many behaviors you can apply to punishment to.

My idea is this. 

Here's a sum up of my experience and what I see alot of green handlers do. They get the pinch collar, and it's even more evident with an e-collar.

1. They apply correction for lets say outs (forget for a moment whether you think this specific behavior should be trained with correction). it works wonderfully. 

Trainer is so excited about the results.
dog thinks that sux....okay I will out

2. they stim the dog for the long down. works

trainer is delighted
dog thinks okay...I will out and stay down.

3. trainer stims dog for missing a blind
trainer is like awesome, I am going to win something!
dog thinks okay, I will out, stay down and go where I am told.

4. trainer stims dog in back transport for forging.

This happens over many training sessions. just when one behavior is extingushed another one is corrected. Dog starts to think what the use. there is no way to avoid getting in trouble. If I comply again, it's just going to happen somewhere else.

The dog learns, I am powerless against the stim. it's going to happen no matter what I do.

I will let you know how it goes.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

James Downey said:


> Now here's were it gets muddy. I get that idea. But I have seen, especially strong dogs. This becomes the order of events to a reward. Forge, correction, reward. The dog starts to elicit the forge, even with knowledge the correction is coming...and will take it. just to get to that reward. The correction becomes the marker.
> 
> Then what happens. The trainer, starts to up the correction....dog starts to become desensitized or the handler corrects earlier, and now we get confusion, or more of the same with the dog taking it to get the reward.
> 
> ...


You don't keep rewarding long term, just to bring them up after the correction and give them a win. If you do, then absolutely, the correction becomes the heel command, or back, or whatever you use to get him back in position. Initially though, you don't want to flatten the dog out, so you correct, get into position, and get rewarded. Variable reward, with no conditioning the correction as a definite prep to a reward. 

It is mixing both compulsion and reward at the right tune that have gotten me the best results. I am not perfect at it by any means, but my two cents. timing is EVERYTHING to get good behaviors. reward and correction


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

James Downey said:


> I believe that also, I would expect some reoccurance of the behavior at a later time...they are always going to go back and try the quickest way from A to B. I do believe that training especially for IPO takes a bit of making it all come together on one day.
> 
> I guess for arguments sake. I think the missing componet maybe, how many behaviors you can apply to punishment to.
> 
> ...


Are you talking about correction for a known behavior or negative reinforcement until the dog explores what he should do? there is a huge difference.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

James Downey said:


> Now here's were it gets muddy. I get that idea. But I have seen, especially strong dogs. This becomes the order of events to a reward. Forge, correction, reward. The dog starts to elicit the forge, even with knowledge the correction is coming...and will take it. just to get to that reward. The correction becomes the marker.
> 
> Then what happens. The trainer, starts to up the correction....dog starts to become desensitized or the handler corrects earlier, and now we get confusion, or more of the same with the dog taking it to get the reward.
> 
> ...


I have seen the heeling example you speak of with dogs (not mine). I have seen what you speak of in my own dogs in other exercises.

I think what is the "thing in common" when I have seen this is that the dog doesn't ACTUALLY understand why it is being corrected. Like you said, it just thinks the correction is something to endure on the way to the reward. Especially if the dog is in crazy high drive mode.

When I have this happen, and a correction does not start to reduce the undesired behaviour pretty quick, I think it is time to step back and look at what I might be doing wrong.

I have had success in going back to breaking things down into smaller pieces, to ensure that the dog understands what I WANT...not just what I DONT WANT. Of course there are several ways to go about that too....

When the dog understands why it is being corrected, and how to avoid that correction in the future, the corrections seem to work better! Maybe they will still need reminders now and again.

None of this is an original thought of course. I am just learning this stuff as I go, with the help of others, and the learning curve is steep. My success rate on some things has been great, and others has been HORRID!!!!! ](*,)](*,)](*,)

Anyways, that is what makes dog training interesting...


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Somewhere in this there has to a be a set the dog up for success moment.

My little lightbulb moment - a small thing, but something that made me stop and think.

I was having an issue with the automatic sit when I stopped. My dog would take an extra step and then swing back into heel position and sit. Collar correction and working him down a fence line so he couldn't swing out wasn't working to fix this.

I started working with someone who competes in CKC obedience. She made me walk beside her in heel position and then stopped. I did exactly what my dog did and took another step and then came back to stand beside her. I understood the exercise, I was trying to get it right, and I couldn't. Would punishment fix this?

Then she told me to walk beside her again. When she stopped, I stopped right beside her. Exercise correct.

The difference between the first and second time was in her footwork and body position. I wasn't aware of it until she pointed out and showed me what she had done, but it made a difference. 

I went back to sch training and I watched someone hammer their dog for an incorrect halt and sit and just thought it was so unfair... 

Some things are black and white, right or wrong. Some things are a dance between handler and dog and require a bit of finesse so both dancers can get it right.


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

Jennifer's and Leslie's post above, totally! I think lots of times people assume their dog knows what they are supposed to do when really they don't. They rush through steps, don't break up the behaviours enough, and don't ensure the dog does know what is expected before moving to the next step. That's when you see corrections having not so good effects. Because there is no clarity to the dog.

You can teach ALOT just by giving or with holding the reward, with no use of corrections at all. In fact every one should try this at some point with their dog. I think teaching a behaviour through shaping really helps hone in timing and delivery skills. If you can't deliver your rewards in the correct and precise manner, and you're handing out corrections, you're not going to get very far with your dog until your own skills as a handler improve. 

I spent some time training with purely positive type agility trainers, and as much as I don't like their over all philosophy they come up with some great creative ways of how to shape behaviours and when the dog gets what ever behaviour you are teaching with this method, you know for sure in black and white that the dog gets it. Then you can use corrections to proof the behaviour's reliability.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I think 1, you have to make sure the dog really values the reward and understands the marker/OC system. First ask yourself is the dog loaded on the marker and is the reward high value enough that he bounces off the wall for it. That's a gotta have. People will say they do marker training but really they are doing rewards for behaviors. There is a difference. Second, corrections too early muddy the process and interrupt learning. You get more of a confused & stressed dog, than anything else. In your correction heeling example, I'd bet the dog doesn't know what heel position is and in motion. He doesn't know what right is. Before I even think to going to a correction, I want to be 100% sure I've taught the behavior and that means under variable conditions. Most dogs aren't generalists. Before I go to a correction, I really turn it over and over regarding whether I've really trained it--broken down and chained the behaviors and worked the variable reinforcement system. As Dave said, I think you really have to continue to mark/reward for performance of the desired behaviors. Only then will I go to a correction. My corrections aren't collar based, its me communicating to the dog I'm not happy. Next week will be a test spin at the trials to see how this is working with my current dog. 

T


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Dave said
"Timing is EVERYTHING to get good behaviors. reward and correction."

BINGO! 
Neither is worth a crap without timing!


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Dog training is not just reward and punishment.


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## Adi Ibrahimbegovic (Nov 21, 2008)

You are correct with what you described below. The correction itself is now part of the regimen, the dog expects it, gets it, rolls with it and goes on.

So, the next step, at least for me, we are talking hypothetical, theoretical, thinking aloud etc... is to change the correction itself.

There are only a few things set it stone in dog training, I believe, only a few. One of them, for me, being - (dog thikinking to himself) a behavior that gets me nowhere will cease to exist after a certain time has passed and it has been tried and tried by me unsucessfully.

So, if the dog is forging or lagging or whatever is doing incorrect in heel, you crank on the pinch, he corrects and moves on, does the correct routine to your satisfaction, you reward with a ball and move on.

Application of what I am talking about above. The dog forges - you stop all training, **** you, it's over, back into the crate. try again later. The dog is simmering in the crate - wtf, man, where was my correction? I'd have done it right if you jazzed me with a pinch...

Again, just thinking aloud, what the hell do I know. Not giving the correction is the correction.



James Downey said:


> Now here's were it gets muddy. I get that idea. But I have seen, especially strong dogs. This becomes the order of events to a reward. Forge, correction, reward. The dog starts to elicit the forge, even with knowledge the correction is coming...and will take it. just to get to that reward. The correction becomes the marker.
> 
> Then what happens. The trainer, starts to up the correction....dog starts to become desensitized or the handler corrects earlier, and now we get confusion, or more of the same with the dog taking it to get the reward.
> 
> ...


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Bob :
regarding Dave's one liner ...

TIMING is essential but definitely not "everything"
- we all know timing is important

but an abusive trainer OVERcorrecting a dog at exactly the time it needs a correction is imo a poor trainer 
....i see that a lot and i think that could be part of what the OP is referring to

necessary not sufficient ??


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> Dog training is not just reward and punishment.


I agree. There is a lot that goes into it. But, if you don't have good timing with reward and punishment (which is what I said), you will not get good behaviors. So, again, good timing in Reward and Punishment is Everything to getting good behaviors. This statement includes the timing in witholding rewards, and variable reward. Please tell me how I am wrong. Not just that I am. Then I can either agree or disagree with your ideas.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I think 1, you have to make sure the dog really values the reward and understands the marker/OC system. First ask yourself is the dog loaded on the marker and is the reward high value enough that he bounces off the wall for it. That's a gotta have. People will say they do marker training but really they are doing rewards for behaviors. There is a difference. Second, corrections too early muddy the process and interrupt learning. You get more of a confused & stressed dog, than anything else. In your correction heeling example, I'd bet the dog doesn't know what heel position is and in motion. He doesn't know what right is. Before I even think to going to a correction, I want to be 100% sure I've taught the behavior and that means under variable conditions. Most dogs aren't generalists. Before I go to a correction, I really turn it over and over regarding whether I've really trained it--broken down and chained the behaviors and worked the variable reinforcement system. As Dave said, I think you really have to continue to mark/reward for performance of the desired behaviors. Only then will I go to a correction. My corrections aren't collar based, its me communicating to the dog I'm not happy. Next week will be a test spin at the trials to see how this is working with my current dog.
> 
> T


I agree with most of this, maybe all. I would just say to throw in all dogs are different, some generalize quickly and you can add correction earlier. 

It sounds like I may go to correction quicker with a dog (not a puppy) but I want a dog to learn a correction is like anything else that causes discomfort. That it isn't the end of the world and there is a way to avoid it and an appropriate way to come back from it. Has to do with the amount of correction applied and how quick the reward comes. Got to know the dogs titration level. IE may take way less in OB and way more in bitework. I have never made a correction inneffective for a dog. When this happens, it is poor handling

I do like collar correction better than communicating in other ways, but I have done a lot of training where it was imperative to hand the dog off to another handler, making collar corrections more clear for the dog from one handler to the next. I do see the value to the way you do it.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

James read this list again :
"1. They apply correction for lets say outs (forget for a moment whether you think this specific behavior should be trained with correction). it works wonderfully. 

Trainer is so excited about the results.
dog thinks that sux....okay I will out

2. they stim the dog for the long down. works

trainer is delighted
dog thinks okay...I will out and stay down.

3. trainer stims dog for missing a blind
trainer is like awesome, I am going to win something!
dog thinks okay, I will out, stay down and go where I am told.

4. trainer stims dog in back transport for forging.

This happens over many training sessions. just when one behavior is extingushed another one is corrected. Dog starts to think what the use. there is no way to avoid getting in trouble. If I comply again, it's just going to happen somewhere else.

The dog learns, I am powerless against the stim. it's going to happen no matter what I do."

understand the corrections part, but where are the rewards that should be timed for the correct behavior after you applied the positive punishment corrections ? should i assume they are there ?

i.e 
won't out - correction
repeat drill / bite
then DOES out - reward with rebite
....corrections not followed up with multiple pos reinforcement for CORRECT behavior can sometimes equal : " i'll do it but not because i WANT to; cause the only thing i'll get out of it is ... the next command"
......too many corrections needed - dog doesn't understand command yet, and handler could be falling into the "applying corrections too early" syndrome

many short bites and outs and re-bites equals " this is a piece of cake" (since the act of going in and delivering the bite is almost as rewarding to most dogs as holding on)
......THEN add duration on the bite

btw, i want to hear from the KNPV folks regarding corrections ..... it seems OC has a much lower priority in their training philosophy


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## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

James you wrote: The effect of each correction is not evident but over time....the dog either slowly goes flat and begrudginly behaves or becomes hectic and almost has no respect for what is being asked.
________________
This statement interested me because I trained with food, toys and verbal rewards. My corrections would be saying NO and starting the exercise over, withholding the treat and a slight jerk on a martingale collar. When he learned something new or did something right after a few mistakes I practically threw a party. But eventually I ended up with that flat begrudging dog at trials -practice he seemed fine. I would label him a strong dog =a dog that seemed to shrug off any corrections and continue on. But I think you are right-over time-the end result was that flat dog. Now what caused that? too few corrections, too much practice, too many trials or were my treats not good enough or maybe the dog is just needing a vacation and needs to be a dog or does it need a new job? I have to ask would my dog or any dog chose the type of work I have choosen it to do? Or would he prefer a different vocation? Are dogs that different form people? If you enjoy your job your attitude is good, if not then your attitude is not so good. I chose OB for my dog because it is what I like to do. Unfortunately for me and him it isnt what HE likes to do. Just because I buy his food and provide his medical and housing should he perform OB regardless? Well he probably would but do it in a mediocre way. I have decided to give him a vacation, a change of job and then try OB again next year. I dont know if it will work but I look back at how I trained him and I do not think I did anything to cause his flat attitude. So maybe we have to look at each dog indiviually and what that dog would excel in instead of thinking every dog should train and perform and do it well because that is what we want or expect. Just something I have had to reason out because of the situation I find myself in with my dog that I had great hopes for in obedience and instead find myself with a dog that agility seems to be his sport.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

rick smith said:


> Bob :
> regarding Dave's one liner ...
> 
> TIMING is essential but definitely not "everything"
> ...



I'll agree that "everything" is a stretch but I still look at timing as one of the most important aspects of training. Without it the dog gets nothing but confused. Doesn't matter how good the dog is.
"OVER correcting" can create poor performance in a good dog but if the timing is correct the dog still learns. 
Obviously it will crush a not so strong dog. 
Timing doesn't necessarily make a good trainer but if their timing is correct then they can be taught the performance. Maybe still they don't understand the why and what for of what they are doing but they can still get the job done with a god trainer behind them. 
All the doggy knowledge on the planet wont get the job done if the timing sucks.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I taught my pup / young dog everything more or less positively with food rewards.

Everything went well until about 11 months old and he realised there were more interesting things in life than training. He walked on to the training field like a lamb to the slaughter. Protection was still great.

I joined another club and the trainer showed me how to get him back on track. Prong collar (then allowed) sharpened so that a light pull when he looked away while heeling and when he looked up at me an immediate verbal reward (this happened in 2-3 seconds). This I did for a week and at the end I had a very focused and happy dog. He didn't need food - the tug came at the end of the exercise.

Sharpened against blunt as it is far quicker, the blunt prongs take longer to annoy the dog.

Afterwards, I withheld the praise, not looking at the dog for longer and longer periods.

My GSDs need food as reward and "looking away" prompts a correction, immediately followed by small kibble at the beginning.

The withholding of kibble makes them work harder (heel better) and I look straight ahead which makes them even more focused.

I do not like the GSD trailing its buttocks on the ground and peering up at me and will never train so. I leave this to the masters, the Malinois.

One thing I did wrong with my GSD, I didn't enforce a perfect OB heeling first so that the back transport in Schutzdienst is not good enough. Outing, "HierFuss" and guarding excellent. A pity but his forging is a real problem - would welcome ideas - can't train at the moment but could think it over.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re: All the doggy knowledge on the planet wont get the job done if the timing sucks.
for SURE !... that's prob where internet learners fall short....they know what they should be doing but wonder why it doesn't work for them when they try it in the real world with a real dog 
- was just assuming this thread was past that stage and i was zitpicking 
- i'm sure you have heard many people tell you " he does it for you, how come he won't do it for me ? " timing, maybe ??


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

"- i'm sure you have heard many people tell you " he does it for you, how come he won't do it for me ? " timing, maybe ??

Got that all the time when I was teaching pet OB classes many moons ago.
I liked to take the most obnoxious dog the first night in the class and have him sitting,downing, whatever, within a few mins. 
I think the simple answer is that the dog (mostly pets again) doesn't know what it can get away with with you and doesn't have the balls to try and pull off the same things it gets away with with the owner.
Kinda like my grandkids. PIA at home but when they come to Pop's house....:twisted: :lol:


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I think as Bob says, they sense a leader but also a defined plan, and clearer which includes good timing and communication. If the handler is conflicted about what he is doing and/or not communicating he has a plan and expectations, it falls apart.


T


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I think as Bob says, they sense a leader but also a defined plan, and clearer which includes good timing and communication. If the handler is conflicted about what he is doing and/or not communicating he has a plan and expectations, it falls apart.
> 
> 
> T


Many owners train with a "Hope fluffy listens to me this time or I'll have to chase the little ***** all over the place again" attitude.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

and many owners with Thor (aka working dog) on prongs say, "if you don't stop flippin me off i'll give ya a bigger pop next time" :-(


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

since pet dogs were brought up i'd like to make a point that may even be appropriate for some working dogs
YES, whenever i start out with an owners dog i am always much "stricter" (probably a bad term) in the way i handle it compared to them, .... and often owners get testy about that
BUT, i make it a point to quickly get the dog motivated to ENJOY the "strictness", and when they see the dog having a good time, that is usually when the light goes off.....often they have been trying to make it "happy" for all the wrong reasons


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> I agree with most of this, maybe all. I would just say to throw in all dogs are different, some generalize quickly and you can add correction earlier.
> 
> It sounds like I may go to correction quicker with a dog (not a puppy) but I want a dog to learn a correction is like anything else that causes discomfort. That it isn't the end of the world and there is a way to avoid it and an appropriate way to come back from it. Has to do with the amount of correction applied and how quick the reward comes. Got to know the dogs titration level. IE may take way less in OB and way more in bitework. I have never made a correction inneffective for a dog. When this happens, it is poor handling
> 
> I do like collar correction better than communicating in other ways, but I have done a lot of training where it was imperative to hand the dog off to another handler, making collar corrections more clear for the dog from one handler to the next. I do see the value to the way you do it.



Dave you're right in terms of the age and degree to which they generalize. My decision to have a come to jesus with my bouv came after I noticed that if I worked her last and had a much more biddable dog. The basic behaviors are trained. It was falling apart with panic stock [prey] and distance. This bitch is highly verbal and probably one of the more generalist that I've worked. She also can plan some serious mind games with free shaping.

As a young dog it would have taken a 2 x 4 as far as the prey. Correction amped her to bite frustration--albeit not at me. Having seen the change after I worked my client dogs, I decided it was all more an issue of pack leadership--pure and simple. She's never been one to come off the stock for food or other reward but I got a lot of mileage out of mark/release as long as the stock was behaving. Part of my problem with correction is that due to the context, you can't correct in the moment. It would be after the fact. As I said, this is a highly intelligent and analytical bitch. So I decided to screw the timing. If she amped to prey and blew my command I was gonna get down field pissed and get in her face. Even with her having additional stock contact her way after I said no and gotten down field, it was effective. I decided that instead of feeling I was out run with the distance which is really sort of acquiescing, I was gonna adopt the attitude of enjoy it why you can but when I get to you and I will, its not gonna be pretty. I basically took her by the collar back to the spot where I had commanded the standing stop. A couple of those and the resistance was gone. She was working at the proper distance from light/flight prey stock and doing what I ask. I was marking/ rewarding the correct behaviors. Suddenly, rewards have value. I mark and she's coming to me for reward instead of releasing on the stock. The release, BTW for the herders is that she basically just goes around them. Every now and then she might blast through. Since I want her to see reward though me and not the stock, this is a step in the right direction. Today, I worked her loaded. She missed dinner last night which means this morning she is bouncing off the wall loaded in prey. She blew one stop and it took me taking her there once and she worked like gold from there on and actually offered a stop in that spot on her own. I also used a clicker instead of my verbal and had some pretty choice food treats. 

In chore livestock work, this bitch is gold and has saved my a** a couple of times with some fight cattle. I have not wanted to make her a mechanical obedience robot. But I want to trial further and I'm not dealing with cattle but light/fright sheep so decided to deal with it a little differently. Its a work in progress and we'll see how it turns out. 

T


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## Shade Whitesel (Aug 18, 2010)

Hi Jim,
Don't know why you ended up with a flat dog since that is not my experience at all. I wouldn't say that I am "purely positive" (though everyone seems to try to make it so) but I rarely add physical corrections, especially in obedience. 
I like to think of my method as "maintainance reward" rather than maintainance correction. If a trainer is going to have to give the dog three corrections (however you want, collar pop, e, whatever)in a heeling practice than I am going to have to give my dog 3 rewards. (whatever my dog wants as his reward) I see the most common mistake made in my opinion is that once the dog is trained to heel for 100 paces, it never gets a release and reward in those 100 paces ever again. I want my dog to think that one step of heeling gets rewarded just as much as 100 steps. I have my clients use dice!
What I have found is that in time, when given enough of a reward schedule and enough interaction and emotion from me, the heeling in time becomes a reinforcement (at least to my 3 current dogs.) I can then stop rewarding most heeling. Or even use heeling as a reward for something else I am teaching.
By the way, I find timeouts on the side of the field, or in the car, DO NOT work for Reiki. When he makes a mistake (say, punches the sleeve during a long guard) it seems to be from frustration or conflict with me. A timeout just makes those 2 problems way worse. I have better success with either resetting the behavior chain, or figuring out how to lesson the frustration or handler conflict.
I do use a NRM for certain behaviors once I am certain the dog has a really good idea of what is expected. But not for most of them.
Another thing that I have only just explored in the last year. Be careful about maintaining behaviors. If you are going to do positive, reward in such a way that it strengthens the behavior. Many trainers go to correction when they have accidently taught the very behavior they are correcting. That makes conflict and confusion from the dog. Example: rewarding consistently from the right hand will create a dog that crowds during heeling. Back transport: practicing the exact exercise where the helper's attack initiates the bite reward will create a dog that forges...


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

Long story short I have recently redone my dog's foundation obedience. For several reasons we were out of work since about April. I went back and avoided physical corrections. A month ago my main issues in general were these:

1. In general, an extreme lack of attention for me and blowing off most off leash commands, including recalls.
2. Huge horseshoes on any kind of retrieve or recall - in the past this issue waxed, waned, and was previously unsuccessfully addressed with a long ling.
3. Slow position exercises (sit, down, stand) - this was also an issue in all previous training.
*Before the break this spring/summer he was well trained, not perfect of course, but I was happy with it. He was responsive and could be trusted off leash no matter how far away.


My new plan was this:
1. On leash only (long lead for "off leash" exploring) - intent to stay on leash for a minimum of two months.
2. Reward for any attention looking up at my face while out and about for informal walking.
3. Reward for any recall completed without interruption of sniffing or wandering, no matter how big the horseshoe or how slow.
4. While working on positions I rewarded each command completed without interruption between command and completion, no matter how slow.
*Rewards were mostly food. Training sessions with food were interspersed with short play sessions.
**Failure to respond to a command was dealt with by non-reward marker, redirection, and another opportunity to perform.

The leash thing didn't last two weeks. He has pheonominal focus on me and I was able to recall him off anything - even lakes and creeks (his biggest crack on the planet, more than bitework; before this training I would have been unable to recall from water without yelling). Horseshoes are still present but remain under ten feet across in all circumstances. There are times now that he turns on a dime (note, this isn't even something I worked on, it came with the attention training and bonding we have done). I now have lightening fast positions while working on solely positions and this is currently leaking into areas of our routine (ie, sit from a long down or at an article).

My overall conclusion? I don't give a rat's behind what people think or say about reward based training, or even correction free training. I SEE the difference in my dog between even the minimalist approach I took before and what I'm doing now. Even when I was working under my previous Schutzhund trainer I was not happier with our overall obedience back then than I currently am without his guidance.

I still use corrections, yes. He heels better under pressure and always has so early in heeling sessions I will correct him for something in heeling (maybe poor eye contact) and that makes everything tighter. I fly under the philosophy that everything has a time and place from your clicker to your prong collar. But I am greatly enjoying the results that this recent exploration has given me so I don't plan on giving it up yet.



Addition: I think one of the biggest pros in withholding corrections is the opportunity it allows for a handler's humility. This week is the first week we've started doing motion exercises or long clips of heeling. I asked for a sit in motion and he nailed it. The next time I asked for a down. He sat. I asked three more repetitions for a down and he sat for each one. At that point I was just short of throwing my hands in the air and going "what the hell?!" I asked for a couple downs outside of the heeling and he nailed those each time. Went back to heeling and he sat again. After a minute of thinking I realized that *I* had forgotten my job and had been working on the wrong feet. So I switched up how I was working him and he nailed the next three motion downs. I'm glad I didn't correct my dog for my dumb mistakes that day. It would have done nothing but confuse and frustrate both of us.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

James thanks for starting IMO a good thread, i'm too inexperienced to give specific training advice but the discussions have been thoughtful. 

i want to commend you on at least thinking about what yr doing and asking questions, can only end up better for you and yr dog.

i am starting to categorise trainers in the following broad folders;

1. clubbers - don't know (or care) much why or how something works just follow the precise training steps and stages that are layed out for them - if its not working just apply the same steps harder untill it works or get another dog.

2. leash jockeys - pay someone to do whatever to the dog so they can stand at the end of a leash and yell commands such that the dog will do them.

3. naturals - people that have little or no threoretical knowledge of what they are doing just have freaky timing and ablility to read/communicate with a dog just st the right moment just with the right level and right type of support - cannot explain what they are doing to anyone else, because they don't know.

4. teachers (won't mention names) but those rare few that are naturals that made the effort to put it into words and have the ability to read other trainers as well as their dogs and give the right info for that dog and that trainer.

5. idiots/egoists - the people that the high tech training equipment market target, they neither enjoy what they do, have no real understanding or relationship with dog but can get good results with a certain type of dog, the carnage and wastage is high.

6, passioners/funners/tryers - like me, real PITA for serious clubs, mostly confused, convinced they got the best dog on the planet when it is clearly not - don't care, don't listen much, will never get the best from their dog but get more than most with half the effort, enjoy what they do and dogs always look happy and keen to work albeit at a lower level. will come dead last at every trial and drive home with huge smile on face.

could add some more and put more detail but bored you enough.

cheers


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Jackie Lockard said:


> Long story short I have recently redone my dog's foundation obedience. For several reasons we were out of work since about April. I went back and avoided physical corrections. A month ago my main issues in general were these:
> 
> 1. In general, an extreme lack of attention for me and blowing off most off leash commands, including recalls.
> 2. Huge horseshoes on any kind of retrieve or recall - in the past this issue waxed, waned, and was previously unsuccessfully addressed with a long ling.
> ...


This is what I mean by dogs being specific. That's why my default is before I decide a dog is blowing me off to examine if I've really trained what I'm asking for. I think people are too quick to think the dog is blowing them off. I tend to train like Shade who makes a good point about reward within the work. I'm getting ready for a trial. My dog is going to have to run an entire course without reward. So I went out and ran a course for the first time without reward for the first time. She was a little stressed w/ the tons of put a paw here and put a paw there but performed every thing told. I jackpotted at the end. Session 2 was reward within the work so much shorter durations and reward for individual tasks. I also stood in different places instead of the handler's cone and asked for things that are different in terms of the course pattern. This is my training for if something goes wrong and avoiding the dog sticking to a pattern of work---especially when they are rewarded for executing that pattern. I mix it up this way. 

T


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Jackie Lockard said:


> Long story short I have recently redone my dog's foundation obedience. For several reasons we were out of work since about April. I went back and avoided physical corrections. A month ago my main issues in general were these:
> 
> 1. In general, an extreme lack of attention for me and blowing off most off leash commands, including recalls.
> 2. Huge horseshoes on any kind of retrieve or recall - in the past this issue waxed, waned, and was previously unsuccessfully addressed with a long ling.
> ...


Jackie this a really nice post. You said what I feel like are some of the keys to training a dog with your new plan. I use the same approach for the most part and find it works really good.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> There is a lot that goes into it. But, if you don't have good timing with reward and punishment (which is what I said), you will not get good behaviors. So, again, good timing in Reward and Punishment is Everything to getting good behaviors. This statement includes the timing in witholding rewards, and variable reward. Please tell me how I am wrong.


You're not wrong, you're just not 100% right. The thing that you, and others on this thread, are failing to take into account is relationship. A good relationship with the dog can overcome a lot of bad training including timing mistakes. 

I think it's short sighted to apply to much of Skinnerian theory to dog training. You have to remember that the Skinner Box was created to remove the influence of the observer from the subject. That's the opposite of what I want to do in my dog training. With modern training we tend to seek to remove handler influence and make the training field a big Skinner Box. We use e-collar. We don't praise, we drop balls from Pringles cans. We don't use our hands to correct. I think that these types of things diminish the relationship and if the relationship is not built up in other places to make up for this, you tend to get the problems that the OP is having.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> You're not wrong, you're just not 100% right. The thing that you, and others on this thread, are failing to take into account is relationship. A good relationship with the dog can overcome a lot of bad training including timing mistakes.
> 
> I think it's short sighted to apply to much of Skinnerian theory to dog training. You have to remember that the Skinner Box was created to remove the influence of the observer from the subject. That's the opposite of what I want to do in my dog training. With modern training we tend to seek to remove handler influence and make the training field a big Skinner Box. We use e-collar. We don't praise, we drop balls from Pringles cans. We don't use our hands to correct. I think that these types of things diminish the relationship and if the relationship is not built up in other places to make up for this, you tend to get the problems that the OP is having.





> It is mixing both compulsion and reward at the right tune that have gotten me the best results. I am not perfect at it by any means, but my two cents. timing is EVERYTHING to get good behaviors. reward and correction


The thing you are failing to take into account is what I said. I re-quoted so you can see it. I am talking about teaching and repeating specific behaviors. Can you clearly state what problems the OP is having besides getting behaviors?

Define your good relationship with a dog. I bet you can find a number of times where you did things at just the right time, to let your dog know what you were happy or upset with how your relationship was going with it. IE reward, and correction. They are predators trying to reach an end goal of what they want. It is a bonus when we get a dog and a task suited for each other. IE the dog that loves to hunt, being a detector dog, a self rewarder. Mix it with good rewards and judicious use of the dog to not burn it out, and you have a dog that will kill himself hunting, and look "happy" the whole time. 

For the rest of the dogs and tasks that they don't want to do on their own, naturally, they need to understand two things. Do it to get a reward, do it to avoid correction. When I say reward, it is not a hot dog, tug or ball. It is me giving them the thing they value, in the quantity that suits what they have done, to increase the likelihood of the behavior repeating itself. IE I don't teach an attention heel with an extremely prey driven dog with a toy. Usually food will tone the dog down so he can learn what response you are trying to condition.

You are making a common mistake in telling me and others what we are failing to take into account. You assume you know what I and we think. Your interpretation of human/dog relationship is also a common mistake from someone who doesn't realize or doesn't accept they are conditioned response animals. Someone who puts their heart into something that requires calculation and repetition and not an extreme amount of feelings. I love my dog and it reflects in how I reward him. He doesn't love me, and I accept that. He isn't capable of love.

He does have some mad snuggles though. I am going to go crawl into the bed and let him show his love through snuggles.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Dave Colborn said:


> The thing you are failing to take into account is what I said. I re-quoted so you can see it. I am talking about teaching and repeating specific behaviors. Can you clearly state what problems the OP is having besides getting behaviors?
> 
> Define your good relationship with a dog. I bet you can find a number of times where you did things at just the right time, to let your dog know what you were happy or upset with how your relationship was going with it. IE reward, and correction. They are predators trying to reach an end goal of what they want. It is a bonus when we get a dog and a task suited for each other. IE the dog that loves to hunt, being a detector dog, a self rewarder. Mix it with good rewards and judicious use of the dog to not burn it out, and you have a dog that will kill himself hunting, and look "happy" the whole time.
> 
> ...


I am going to cut and paste this into the "relationship" thread I started for this very reason!


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

I think that Dave hit it. My problem is I am not gaining or extinguishing he behaviors I want to. and if I am I am doing it at the cost of harming the relationship. I am trying to gain or extinguish behavior and preserve relationship. I would not assess that I do not take relationship into account, I very much do. Anyone who knows Addie and I knows this is paramount to me. 

Till this point, I have achieved on a much grander scale the behaviors I want and built a much more reciprocal relationship with my dog during the time I removed correction collars from my dog. The crossroads I am at is that I would like to reintroduce correction to my training so that it is more effective and yet preserves the relationship I have built. Through my history in training I can look back now and see what did not work or if it did it work the cost was to high for me. I can see that if I am going to go back to using corrections, I must do it in a different way. 

In the form of parenting, I have absolutley no problem teaching the dog how to behave in the world so they are a well adjusted animal. Even if that includes snatching them up. But on the trial field, I do feel that it's training not parenting. And that making things personal, is a bit much for points. It's like those over zealous fathers at wrestling matches who make it personal with thier children for winning or losing. In the grand scheme of things. I think relationship is not a training tool. It's a by product, a result of the training. Just as the father who is involved in his kids sports to spend time with them...win or lose. Done right or wrong by the kid. relationship is still built. I have seen plenty of kids whom preformed correctly in sports, and at the end of the day hated thier dads. And I have seen kids who lost every match and had wonderful relationship with thier dads. Because the father had the discpline in himself to not make such a silly thing a personal endeavor.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Its certainly what I was getting at in my post. My dog knows what right is. We had a relationship issue not a teaching a behavior issue. It was down to leadership/respect and pack in that context. Its an issue I need to address, yet I continue with my marker training scheme. It goes beyond correcting for non performance of a specific behavior. Every dog is different. I train another dog that I can't imagine having a come to jesus with. He's that biddable. Its all marker/reward for him.

T


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> Can you clearly state what problems the OP is having besides getting behaviors?


He's not getting the behaviors, that's the point. 



> Define your good relationship with a dog.


It's different for every dog.



> I bet you can find a number of times where you did things at just the right time, to let your dog know what you were happy or upset with how your relationship was going with it. IE reward, and correction.


 Yes, but so what? I can also find many times where my timing was shit and the relationship that I have with my dog help the dog to recover. 




> They are predators trying to reach an end goal of what they want.


That's YOUR believe and your welcome to it.



> Mix it with good rewards and judicious use of the dog to not burn it out, and you have a dog that will kill himself hunting, and look "happy" the whole time.


And what happens when you don't have the luxury of "judicious use" of the dog? Might your relationship with the dog make a difference? 



> For the rest of the dogs and tasks that they don't want to do on their own, naturally, they need to understand two things. Do it to get a reward, do it to avoid correction. When I say reward, it is not a hot dog, tug or ball. It is me giving them the thing they value, in the quantity that suits what they have done, to increase the likelihood of the behavior repeating itself.


Do you think that if your dog likes you that he might see spending time with you as a reward? 





> I love my dog and it reflects in how I reward him. He doesn't love me, and I accept that. He isn't capable of love.He does have some mad snuggles though. I am going to go crawl into the bed and let him show his love through snuggles.


I will have to leave the man on dog love to you and Rick Santorum.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> He's not getting the behaviors, that's the point.
> 
> It's different for every dog.
> 
> ...




Well, sounds like we agree completely. Except where we don't.


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## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

Quote: I love my dog and it reflects in how I reward him. He doesn't love me, and I accept that. He isn't capable of love.He does have some mad snuggles though. I am going to go crawl into the bed and let him show his love through snuggles. 

Do you really believe dogs are not capable of love? Not capable of loving you-maybe-I dont know you-but I have to argue that dogs can love their owners. Does anyone out there agree with me?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

vicki dickey said:


> Quote: I love my dog and it reflects in how I reward him. He doesn't love me, and I accept that. He isn't capable of love.He does have some mad snuggles though. I am going to go crawl into the bed and let him show his love through snuggles.
> 
> Do you really believe dogs are not capable of love? Not capable of loving you-maybe-I dont know you-but I have to argue that dogs can love their owners. Does anyone out there agree with me?


I am not even sure if I am capable of love, let alone my dog


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## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

I know I will take a lot of flack over my post but here is a good read on the subject of dogs being capable 
of love. http://www.moderndogmagazine.com/articles/can-dogs-love-true-story/132


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## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

Okay researched this love thing a bit more mainly in case I took some heat on here and found this great read on the subject. http://www.dogsincanada.com/can-dogs-love


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

vicki dickey said:


> Quote: I love my dog and it reflects in how I reward him. He doesn't love me, and I accept that. He isn't capable of love.He does have some mad snuggles though. I am going to go crawl into the bed and let him show his love through snuggles.
> 
> Do you really believe dogs are not capable of love? Not capable of loving you-maybe-I dont know you-but I have to argue that dogs can love their owners. Does anyone out there agree with me?


Vicki I do not believe a dog has the capacity to love the way we humans know love. If a dog had a full set of emotions it would be hard to survive. They are group animals and not solitary but the emotional thing isn't there. My dog doesn't love me in the sense you and I think of love but he does respect and follow me. Just my .02


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

OT again, but the canine emotion debate is kind of an interesting topic to me 

so, they say there is often a fine line between love and hate.....does that mean dogs can hate too ?? 

there was a hundred pound plus big black mixed thing that was kept chained to a small front porch down the street from where i lived. poor guy acted like it hated anyone who would try to enter. idiot owners loved it that way. year by year you could tell how crazy it was getting by its weird barking cadence

owners hated me since whenever i passed if they were outside, i told them they should let the poor guy get out and go for a walk sometime. what they really hated is that i would stop and talk to them and not run away from the dog. finally i couldn't stand it and i started going by late at night and toss it hot dogs. finally wouldn't bark at me when i stopped and just wagged its tail, and that REALLY infuriated them.

do you think it was starting to love me ?


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

some people express love by being extremely dependent on the one they love....fwiw, i think that is close to how some canines express "love" of their human

altho the Hachi story in Japan has been embellished it IS a true story and i would explain a lot of that "love" and emotion in the same way

and because they are highly social and dependent, when taken to the extreme by an owner with limited understanding of basic canine behavior, "love" can lead to problems too (aka: velcro syndrome)


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## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

What is so wrong about applying aversives in a timely manner?

Let me throw something out to think about.

If my dogs is extremely prey driven and wants to chase porcupines, there is no way on earth a little fear of an aversive is not called for....

It's going to be more reliable, faster and will save the dog a lot of pain in the long run.

Once the dog is avoiding the animal, go right back to the positive.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Ted Efthymiadis said:


> What is so wrong about applying aversives in a timely manner?
> 
> Let me throw something out to think about.
> 
> ...


This is one area where we possiblely agree LOL.

I use very little physical correction, well none in agility training and a little in sheep work but not often. 

However chasing sheep aggressively is not an option, it is a life and death situation for a dog on a farm. One of my young cattle dogs when I first moved here was very bad in this respect, she has a normally good recall but also an extreme prey drive and the sheep were very hard to resist. Well I tanned her bum on several occassions and she very quickly realised that chasing sheep resulted in swift meaningful physical punishment and now she either ignores them or if she moves towards them I just have to make a sound and she comes very quickly. I can pass really close by the sheep with her in the same paddock and she behaves perfectly.


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## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

Sara Waters said:


> This is one area where we possiblely agree LOL.
> 
> I use very little physical correction, well none in agility training and a little in sheep work but not often.
> 
> However chasing sheep aggressively is not an option, it is a life and death situation for a dog on a farm. One of my young cattle dogs when I first moved here was very bad in this respect, she has a normally good recall but also an extreme prey drive and the sheep were very hard to resist. Well I tanned her bum on several occassions and she very quickly realised that chasing sheep resulted in swift meaningful physical punishment and now she either ignores them or if she moves towards them I just have to make a sound and she comes very quickly. I can pass really close by the sheep with her in the same paddock and she behaves perfectly.


I guess what I am trying to say to the original poster is this.
Stop thinking so much, find a trainer you really like, and train with them any chance you can.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Ted,

Funny you should say that. The trainers I like all have one thing 1 in common. The ability to problem solve and critically think. In fact, My original mentor mentioned to me right before I moved that it's time to start thinking for yourself and pop your self off the nipple. Some of the best advise I have ever gotten, And luckily for me he was not egotistical enough to think, "he will never make it without me". Because for this dog trainer, experience is not the best teacher...it's the only teacher.

I get that there are times that I will need to consult with people. But I do not think it does me any good to just mimic thier training. What I think does good is a some dialect that stimulates the parts of my brain to think. 

I have seen people take Ivan seminars, Bart Bellon seminars, Peter Sherk, Edgar sherkl....The list goes on. I have not seen to many people that by training with a better trainer and being showed what they do, have been able to re-create what the person teaching has already done.

I hear about how great the semiars are....but the trainer on thier own is clueless.

The greatest assest I think any trainer can have is the ability to be able the solve the problems that are in front them. I by no means have conquered this skill. But I believe left to my own best thinking is a great chance to take what I have showed by other trainers and start trying to make my own way. It's a painful process, But mistakes and errors are very integral part of learning. 

Mimicing is for the infantile stages of training. Any trainer who does move passed that...Well good luck.

And the big thing most trainers fear about thinking for themselves....Failure. And Failure, is in every successful persons history. So, You will see me fail and struggle...and I welcome it.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Nice post and well said.


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

James Downey said:


> I have seen people take Ivan seminars, Bart Bellon seminars, Peter Sherk, Edgar sherkl....The list goes on. I have not seen to many people that by training with a better trainer and being showed what they do, have been able to re-create what the person teaching has already done.
> 
> I hear about how great the semiars are....but the trainer on thier own is clueless.



I think you're on the money here. Ivan seems to be in "in thing" lately. I see a lot of people go to his seminars and they seem to expect to magically have a fixed dog on the other side of a weekend. Instead of going into it on Saturday morning with the mindset of, what does this trainer have to teach me about training. I don't think many people CARE about training dogs; I think they just want their dog trained to score high points and leave out the tiny bit about the handler having to master the learning theory first. And there are so many learning theories out there, I can't possibly see how it does the average joe any good to mix and match by attending random seminars without taking the concepts behind the exercises.

Case in point, I use a lot of Ivan's system. I went to a seminar earlier this year who in contrast does primarily shaping exercises. I got nothing out of that seminar to use with my current dog. What I did (and I believe should have) taken from it was an open mindset to a whole new theory of training sport dogs, and that theory is something I can apply to my dog(s) if, when, or how I think it would work better than what I'm currently doing.


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## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

James Downey said:


> Ted,
> 
> Funny you should say that. The trainers I like all have one thing 1 in common. The ability to problem solve and critically think. In fact, My original mentor mentioned to me right before I moved that it's time to start thinking for yourself and pop your self off the nipple. Some of the best advise I have ever gotten, And luckily for me he was not egotistical enough to think, "he will never make it without me". Because for this dog trainer, experience is not the best teacher...it's the only teacher.
> 
> ...


Seminars are one thing, a little training, and mostly words.

To be a mind blowing dog trainer, you need many things, the biggest thing in my opinion is someone to work with long term who is at a much higher level. Until someone reaches a very high level, they still have lots and lots to learn. 

I have a trainer who I talk with every few days, just because I look up to him and want to reach his level in dealing with dogs at some point in my career. However I still have my own mind, he more than anything motivates me to be the best I can be.

Just the way I see it.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I didn't have a "mind-blowing" trainer. I had a chap from a nearby dog club who came to help us. 

He taught us how to read our dogs. For obedience, one dog and handler were on the field. All of us watched - dogs in the boxes and brought out in turns for *each* exercise.

He gave a running commentary of each dog and, after the training was over, he discussed each dog's progress or failings.

He also said that dog training isn't rocket science, which it wasn't until the fancy Positive / Negative +/- terms appeared!! 

On tracking Sundays, we all walked behind him and each handler and his dog and he gave us a running commentary on how the dog was tracking.

I went to one or two seminars given by internationally renowned dog men, but even so, the above training was far more valuable - it was "ongoing".


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## Paul R. Konschak (Jun 10, 2010)

How about the idea that the dog is working with you because of the bond between you and the dog. The reward is your emotion to the dog, your praise to the dog, because you love to work with your dog and the dog loves working with you. This same emotion can be used when you raise your voice for a correction. The dog does not want to disapoint you. The dog wants to please you.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Paul R. Konschak said:


> How about the idea that the dog is working with you because of the bond between you and the dog. The reward is your emotion to the dog, your praise to the dog, because you love to work with your dog and the dog loves working with you. This same emotion can be used when you raise your voice for a correction. The dog does not want to disapoint you. The dog wants to please you.


Yes I have a dog that fits this bill. But I think you will find that many people will say that a dog does not want to please you, it wants to please itself and by pleasing you it is getting what it wants. I like how you said it though LOL and in some cases tend to agree.

On the rare occassions I can get to a dog club for agility training my class is taken by a woman similar to how Gillian describes her trainer. Each dog runs and we all discuss the run and the handling and how it could have been done differently, what the dog was doing etc. The woman is a wonderful handler herself and volunteers her time to teach at her club.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I didn't have a "mind-blowing" trainer. I had a chap from a nearby dog club who came to help us.
> 
> He taught us how to read our dogs. For obedience, one dog and handler were on the field. All of us watched - dogs in the boxes and brought out in turns for *each* exercise.
> 
> ...


That sounds very cool.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Paul R. Konschak said:


> How about the idea that the dog is working with you because of the bond between you and the dog. The reward is your emotion to the dog, your praise to the dog, because you love to work with your dog and the dog loves working with you. This same emotion can be used when you raise your voice for a correction. The dog does not want to disapoint you. The dog wants to please you.



Paul. Do you really believe in this? I don't believe it. I will argue against it. I don't think dogs can feel as if they've dissappointed you, or love working with you. I think most things are just conditioned responses in a dog, that some people humanize into love of working for me, etc. I don't THINK (my opinion) they are that complex. What evidence can you lend this argument to sway me to your side? 

I agree that my praise can absolutely be rewarding to my dog. My particular dog likes head locks and wrestling with me. So I get where it isn't all food and biting a tug. He does get something out of interacting with me, but he likes interacting with a decoy too.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Dave Colborn said:


> Paul. Do you really believe in this? I don't believe it. I will argue against it. I don't think dogs can feel as if they've dissappointed you, or love working with you. I think most things are just conditioned responses in a dog, that some people humanize into love of working for me, etc. I don't THINK (my opinion) they are that complex. What evidence can you lend this argument to sway me to your side?
> 
> I agree that my praise can absolutely be rewarding to my dog. My particular dog likes head locks and wrestling with me. So I get where it isn't all food and biting a tug. He does get something out of interacting with me, but he likes interacting with a decoy too.


 
I dont think dogs feel as if they have dissapointed you. Well actually some sensitive dogs will shut down if your body language indicates they have not done it right, but I dont think that is a feeling of dissapointing you. That is probably a product of the handlers inadequacies LOL

However, I think they experience joy in working with a particular person, in heading out to do something with a person they have a strong bond with. Not all dogs will work for anyone, but we have had that discussion before and that is my opinion.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Sara Waters said:


> I dont think dogs feel as if they have dissapointed you. Well actually some sensitive dogs will shut down if your body language indicates they have not done it right, but I dont think that is a feeling of dissapointing you. That is probably a product of the handlers inadequacies LOL
> 
> However, I think they experience joy in working with a particular person, in heading out to do something with a person they have a strong bond with. Not all dogs will work for anyone, but we have had that discussion before and that is my opinion.


I understand what you are saying. I am looking for evidence of this. Just clear cut evidence. I can explain most of it away to conditioned behavior. Just want to understand, that's all


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Dave just out of curiousity, do you believe a dog can actually smile.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Dave just out of curiousity, do you believe a dog can actually smile.



Of course. Look at my avatar


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

lol yeah look at mine;

so if a dog can smile does it follow that it can possess hapiness


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Dave play with me here all i want is yes no answers - no examples required


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> lol yeah look at mine;
> 
> so if a dog can smile does it follow that it can possess hapiness



That bright light in your eyes and the fact you are handcuffed to a chair either means I am conducting this interrogation, or you are at a strip club on your birthday/bachelor party.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

it would have been less effort to just say yes or no


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

with all your experience suerly you can answer some simple questions asked by a newb


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Dave Colborn said:


> I understand what you are saying. I am looking for evidence of this. Just clear cut evidence. I can explain most of it away to conditioned behavior. Just want to understand, that's all


Yes most of the behaviour. I cant give you an answer based in science, just observation, although no doubt studies may well exist. I was watching some program the other night where science has shown that like humans, dogs eyes always look to the left when responding to a human face- (right side of a persons face), which is what occurs in humans when reading another persons emotion. Dogs only do this with humans. What this proves I dont know, but it happens.

Dogs also seem to be the only animals that understand a human pointing, even chimps didnt get this. It was a program about examining the evolution of the dog human bond and communication.

Working in science myself I have seen thinking change as new evidence based on better techniques and different thinking surfaces. I have seen observations made by farmers actually become scietifically proven despite initial sceptism. 

In the mean time I enjoy the rare dog or horse I get that seems to go a step above conditioning.


As to if dogs smile, yes I have 2 smilers out of my 6 dogs. One always greets me with a very big smile, only me though and one will smile at other people.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> with all your experience suerly you can answer some simple questions asked by a newb



You have more posts than me. Makes me more of a newb.

No, I don't think they feel happiness like we do.

And dogs don't smile, either.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Sarah i was getting around to the question or a least an explanation in terms of OC theory when a dog stands by a fallen handler like in those tragic images and vid we see to often in millitary service. i find whatevr the dog is doing difficult to explain with OC theory.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Dave the questions wasn't about "like we do" just a simple yes no. anything about "like we do" is pure speculation as none of us except ceaser milan whatever his name is knows actually what a dog is thinking, in fact the word "we" is overstating your case even within the human species - can you say i know for sure that my happiness is the same as yours or anyone else's - speculation.

thats cool u didn't want to paly little game - i thought it would have been interesting and on topic.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Dave don't be so modest what i know compared to you about dogs is fat nothing. we all know it. i admire what you can do and know.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Dave don't be so modest what i know compared to you about dogs is fat nothing. we all know it. i admire what you can do and know.



dog no smile. no happy. Better?


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

...fine then


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

My observations are that some dogs give the physical appearance of smiling and they tend to do that when they are in a good place - greeting owner, being stroked by owner. How that relates to how they are feeling I have no idea LOL


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> ...fine then



I answered. what next?


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Sara Waters said:


> My observations are that some dogs give the physical appearance of smiling and they tend to do that when they are in a good place - greeting owner, being stroked by owner. How that relates to how they are feeling I have no idea LOL



I have always understood show of teeth, not growling, in greeting, as an act of submission. Seen several dogs do it both to humans and other dogs.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Dave Colborn said:


> I have always understood show of teeth, not growling, in greeting, as an act of submission. Seen several dogs do it both to humans and other dogs.


Yes I have seen that, several of my youngsters do that to an older dog and I agree, but they dont do it to me. 

The smile is more the mouth turning up at the corners, no teeth, but lips can be slighty parted. It may well be a different take on the toothy submission display reserved for humans. Not all dogs do it, but when they do it is unmistakeabley recognisable as a smile although, submission may well be the intention.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

not being racist but i know some cultures that when under the hammer they will smile at you involuntarily every time - doesn't mean they are in a happy place.

anyhoo i'm taking my lunch box and off this sand-pit.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

a dog makes an expression, that looks like a smile...there are 1000's of species of animals that can "smile"


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

LOL but does it do it only under certain circumstances! One of our legendary great stockman and breeders says that in the sheepdog you can "breed for any trait you set heart on provided you understand how to go about it." That includes the exact spot a dog bites (if and when and how it does), how it sits on a motorbike etc.

It is highly possible that the "smile expression trait" is inherited and it probably has a specific purpose attached to it like an expression of submission as Dave suggests. It is not uncommon in cattle dogs.



Joby Becker said:


> a dog makes an expression, that looks like a smile...there are 1000's of species of animals that can "smile"


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I agree with you Sara...just covering the instances of dogs smiling that may NOT be what you describe, as interpreted by owners of dogs around the globe...


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## Paul R. Konschak (Jun 10, 2010)

Dave Colborn said:


> Paul. Do you really believe in this? I don't believe it. I will argue against it. I don't think dogs can feel as if they've dissappointed you, or love working with you. I think most things are just conditioned responses in a dog, that some people humanize into love of working for me, etc. I don't THINK (my opinion) they are that complex. What evidence can you lend this argument to sway me to your side?
> 
> I agree that my praise can absolutely be rewarding to my dog. My particular dog likes head locks and wrestling with me. So I get where it isn't all food and biting a tug. He does get something out of interacting with me, but he likes interacting with a decoy too.[/QUOTE
> 
> I do believe that a dog can work for your emotion. Since I have shown my dog my more positive and joyous emotion in training, I have been rewarded with a much better performance. I previously shown plenty of negative emotion and the dog clearly understood this but I rarely showed positive emotion. I felt that the dog would understand that when it was not receiving negative emotion, that everthing was OK. In a trial setting, Emotion is the only thing that you can give your dog. You can not give them food, a ball, a tug, or corrections. You can give praise after each exercise. Why do you think dogs get trial wise? Why do some trainers have success trial after trial and year after year with the SAME DOG? Why are some trainers successful in the first trials with their dogs and then their performances go south? Why did the FMBB have the top 20 dogs repeat the stadium phases on Sunday? I believe that this is all evidence. I am not stating that a dog should not receive corrections. I am stating that a dog needs to feel the emotion of the handler's joy to have continued success.


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