# What is most important in a breeding female?



## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

What traits in a female do you look for when picking a brood bitch? Say you had the choice between two females, one with plenty of aggression and right on the 'edge', a female that looks really good in the work, versus one who is okay in the work but has very strong nerves, which one would you pick? What traits has 'worked', in your experience?

Would really love to hear from people who's bred a lot of litters for this one. (Hint Don maybe? Is he still around).


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

It would have to do alot with what male you're bringing her to. You can also limit the influence of the female on the pups by weaning early. I'd rather go with the first female, assuming you're not inferring she has weak nerves, and note that even the second female could produce pups with weak nerves.


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

A very good breeder once told me.......

"The only thing a female has to prove to me is that she is a good mother."


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

By the time she can prove she's a good mother or not it's too late - for her first litter anyway....


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Daryl Ehret said:


> It would have to do alot with what male you're bringing her to. You can also limit the influence of the female on the pups by weaning early.


Daryl are you saying that the Bitches DNA doesn't have a lot of influence on the pups? Or if you wean the pups early that the Bitch doesn't ingrain other maybe less desirable habits on the pups? Just wondering out loud. 

Also I have a question to add. I understand lot's of people will only do a BH on a female before breeding it. That always raises a red flag for me, since a BH is only a temperament and traffic test to see if the dog can go on in training and is not a 'real' working title. The assumption for a lot of people is the BH is a working title and it sometimes gets passed off on 'green' customers in a sale scenario as such. It's almost like saying a dog has a HIC and then saying the dog is a herding dog!! :lol: 

Going back to the OP's topic. Call me silly or whatever, but to me what is important in a breeding female is knowing that the bitch *can work*. That means it needs to have 'real' working titles like a FR, PSD, SchH, MR, Ranch Dog or whatever, because all the rest is just lip service and should be treated as such. Plus saying that the bitch is trained to level 3 (insert title here) is all hogwash as well, without a piece of paper or score book signed by a judge saying otherwise that's BS lip service too.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I agree with Daryl when he said "It would have to do alot with what male you're bringing her to". It would also depend on what I was currently looking for to add into my program. Do I need to improve on aggression, am I having some problems with the nerves, which female has the higher drive(s), what is the gripping style of each, what sort of structure are we looking at, what about size, etc. And what is the pedigree of each female? Doesn't matter how much I like the female if I don't like the pedigree for some reason (known to produce serious health problems, I know it doesn't usually mesh well with what I already have, etc). All of this comes into play when evaluating a female.

When looking at a brood bitch, how she produces is more important then anything else, since that's where you evaluate a brood bitch. If you want to evaluate her as a working dog, then that's a different evaluation, and how she works is the most important thing. There is a long history in France and Belgium of evaluating but not titling brood bitches. Not because they can't work, but because if they are good they feel their "work" is in the whelping box. And at least for Malinois, that's where our origins are, and so far I'd say that's worked pretty darned well. I've also heard from many people (haven't experienced it in my own dogs, but they have seen it in theirs) that sometimes the best working females are the worst mothers. Killing pups, in a couple of cases the entire litter, attacking the pups, etc. I did know one female who couldn't have toys in the whelping box with her pups because she was so possessive of the toys she'd attack a pup for wandering to close to it. She would also on occasion "protect" her litter from one of it's own littermates who had wandered to far away and was then trying to come back. Physically they were OK afterwards, but mentally ...


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Lyn Chen said:


> What traits in a female do you look for when picking a brood bitch? Say you had the choice between two females, one with plenty of aggression and right on the 'edge', a female that looks really good in the work, versus one who is okay in the work but has very strong nerves, which one would you pick? What traits has 'worked', in your experience?
> 
> Would really love to hear from people who's bred a lot of litters for this one. (Hint Don maybe? Is he still around).


Hello Lyn,
I will tell you what I look for in my breeding females and I am sure many people will disagree but here it is.
1) PERFECT HEALTH - hips / back/ elbows , etc
2)INSANE DRIVES - drive to posses any object with total obsessive behavior
3)SOLID NERVES - in any environmental stress the dog should remain confident, this also includes direct pressure and confrontation by a human
4)PROVEN WORKING PEDIGREE - be sure this matches up with the proven working pedigree of the stud
5) MUST BE SOCIAL !- to me this is very important. I will explain why: If any of you know me then you know that I have some very anti social, openly aggressive dogs in my kennel. However every breeding female I own is very social. When a litter is born here I encourage every visitor at our kennel to come in and greet the new puppies, I want to mother to be very happy and social with the strangers, to greet them at the gate of her kennel in the whelping room with a wagging tail and a lick on the hand, this will re-enforce to the puppies that there is no need to be cautious of the new visitors. if mom is willing to greet them, then the puppies will also be willing to come up and say hello without fear.
However if mom is barking and raising hell with the strangers, showing her teeth, hitting the fence with aggression, then the puppies will panic, run the back of the kennel, show signs of fear of the new unwelcomed visitor that mom is so affected by. This type of behavior will have lasting affetcs on the puppies and will take a lot of time to fix as they get older.

I breed mostly Malinois and Dutchies from all KNPV lines, and most of the best females I have seen from those lines in Holland have not been titled. In my GSD breedings all of my females are titled, but tested way beyond the boundaries of simply haveing a SchH title.
I have about 11 females here in our breeding program, many of them are KNPV titled females and they are very nice working dogs, however the two best working females I have here are not titled, and they produce extremely well with our stud dogs.

Don't feel like you have to breed one of those two females, I would consider looking for a third female that has all of the right traits and qualifications to really help to improve the quality of whatever breed you have.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Geoff, I recently had another breeder tell me that _"the male has little, if any influence on the pups behavior"_. Where that utter BS came from, I have no idea, but it's one of those people that spends far too much time on forums, which are conducive to spreading misconceptions like that. Basically, half dna from each parent, but more _frequently_, from what each parent _is prepotent for_. When it's genotype is homozygously indicative of it's phenotype, then it will tend to produce "like itself" more often. So really, either parent, or both parents in various aspects (whichever aspect it's most prepotent for) can more consistently produce itself into its young.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

So Daryl basically what yourself and Kadi are saying correct me if I'm wrong .. You are looking at the best mix of what the 2 animals bring to the table genetically? 

Say if a dog is aggressive and forward that could be bred to a dog that is more social and you would be looking for a balance of the 2. Or if 2 were bred that were more aggressive and forward you could in theory get pups that are over the top that way? 

I find it all so interesting how excellent working line breeders like yourselves come up with pairings and more importantly figure what works in the gene pool you are working from.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Nice to know there are some out there looking seriously at the pairings.

What happens when:

Dog - aggressive in biting, handler-hard, but an all-round good working dog and civil
Dam: good in biting, not handler-hard but a good working bitch and very social

Excluding HD, elbows, cauda equina, i.e. health issues, how many generations will it take for the progeny to become "balanced" IF that is what the breeder wants?

I used to go to a number of lectures on breeding at the Uni in Zürich and one capacity there informed us that the quickest way to make changes in a breed was to bring in another passable breed. This was mainly aimed at breeds with VISIBLE defects.

With character traits, etc. it's not so easy to see if you've been successful.

We have very strict breeding regulations here but I remember when I had a Landseer that there was a special allowance for a Newfoundland to be mated to a Landseer to bring more temperament into the Newfies. One litter was allowed but I wasn't able to follow the results.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Traits aren't effectively _additive_, to create "over the top", but some gene combinations create the appearance so (polygenic), or regulation of their expression is modified by environment (multifactoral).

In their smallest broken down elements, genetic information is coded at various locations on the dna, called "loci", while each type of instruction is called "allele". If loci were pocket pairs in an ice cube tray, alleles would be the ice cubes.

There are backup copies for all gene loci in the double strand of dna, either they are the same as the expressed gene affecting the phenotype, or they are an alternate recessive that isn't outwardly expressed. When a producer lends either/or from these pairs at each loci, it produces more prepotently of its own likeness when each copy is the same, hence the benefits of linebreeding.

There is also the matter that much of the dna (perhaps 80-90%) _isn't outwardly expressed in phenotype_, or not until a double recessive appears, often causing health complications. Hence, the detriments of linebreeding.

One of the really tricky parts of forecasting recombination of dna, is that the same genotype (allele pairs) can be expressed differently due to environmental modifiers in a concept known as _phenotypic plasticity_. If two genetically identical twins were to develop in different environments, they can effectively become rather different from each other. Alternatively, two genetically different types can develop similar phenotypes.



> It is not about *nature versus nurture*, as that old cliché would have it. It is about nature-on-nurture-on-nature-on nurture, round and round and round. The term for this complex exchange of reciprocating influence is *gene/environment interaction*. It is not so simple a concept as milk and eggs poured into one mixing bowl. Rather, the two act upon and with each other. The same genotype in different environments may lead to similar or different phenotypes. The same environment operating upon different genotypes may also lead to similar or different phenotypes. Different genotypes in different environments may lead to similar or different phenotypes. It all depends upon interactions.





> Complicating the process of gene/environment interaction is something called *developmental noise*. By this is meant the variation introduced by minute, random events that occur during development and have significant cumulative effects on the phenotype.





> Another factor shaping behavior is gene/environment correlation. A *gene/environment correlation* occurs when individuals with a genetic propensity for a trait live in environments that support expression of the trait. This kind of correlation can occur in two ways, passive and active.





> In any event, it doesn’t take much imagination to recognize that the number of nonshared environmental factors in anyone’s life is so large that together they must have some impact. And indeed, from behavioral genetic studies it appears that the nonshared environment has a significant effect on behavior; it is possibly more significant than genes or shared environments. But since much of the nonshared environment is random, accidental, and unsystematic, it may well defy study. This makes things difficult for researchers.


I bred a non-titled female, who had a mass of great qualities but lacked sufficient aggression to a male who had pronounced aggression. For the most part, I believe adequate results were obtained. The one pup I had my greatest doubts about is currently in training with Ivan Balabinov, and from the videos I've seen, seems to be doing fine in protection work. I'd love to breed really strong dogs, but in all honesty two thirds of my pups go to family homes, so I don't get too extreme. Have to have enough civil aggression to do the work, but I prefer my dogs be social as well.


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## Amy Swaby (Jul 16, 2008)

thank god people who understand the importance of genes. -has a happy pants moment-


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Gotta give early development it's credit, though. I cringe when I hear _"it's all genetic"_, as if nothing else matters. The importance of genetics seems to matter more in the care of certain owners who don't waste the potential.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

****ER LOL When did you get Faro ????

Now you need to get me a Mondio GSD pup. I need to check your site more often. Sandro is out there, and will be training as soon as he finds a house.

Better yet, call me. 210 781 2480.

Cheater. : )


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I got him about a year and a half ago. We've had two litters since, and I have one from each litter. What specifically do you look for in a Mondio dog, any distinct differences?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Lyn Chen said:


> What traits in a female do you look for when picking a brood bitch? Say you had the choice between two females, one with plenty of aggression and right on the 'edge', a female that looks really good in the work, versus one who is okay in the work but has very strong nerves, which one would you pick? What traits has 'worked', in your experience?
> 
> Would really love to hear from people who's bred a lot of litters for this one. (Hint Don maybe? Is he still around).


Lyn, I am not into protection so I am not sure what does work or to put it another way, what most people feel works best. What I like is a cool dog that is non aggressive unless the aggression is warranted. I like a solid social dog that has nerves of steel. So, my preferrence would be for the second female. I don't like a dog that postures. 

After reading through this thread I have to say several things have been mentioned. One thing mentioned is breeding a top specimen to a lesser one to correct something that is not desireable. My opinion is you never take a top dog and breed it to anything less unless 1) you have enough dogs to complete the project because it is a project 2) You intend to spend a number of years doing it right. Breeding is about consistency, not producing a litter full of mediocre dogs to get one great one. It is a guarantee that trying to correct flaws this way will produce far more dogs with flaws than not and that tells any pedigree surfers the male is not very good even if he is a top dog.
The other thing is concerning nature and nurture and what many miss. Either one of these have far less impact on a dog with solid nerves and confidence(which may be much the same thing) than a dog that is weak nerved or has less confidence. It always has more influence on the weak.

One thing Kadi said about European breeders finding the best use of some females is as brood bitches. Many, my self included, that look at things with this perspective, know a potentially outstanding dog when they see them. It would be insane to waste their best years for titles and find out they can't throw the same, are poor mothers, can't birth naturally etc. Same goes for males. I think titleing some dogs first is much like putting the cart before the horse. The most tiltled dog in the world is useless to a breeder if he/she cant produce the same.

The third point I would like to make is Daryls knowledge of genetics and the depth he can discuss this stuff in amazes me. Makes me want to go to the library and read up on this stuff but I am too set in my ways.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Don, I agree with most of what you say but not titling the dogs, male and female, would mean you couldn't sell them over here. And, to be honest, an experienced breeder can put them through their paces in SchH pretty quickly. 
Good breeders look beyond the SchH titles and selectt their dogs acordingly. I can't believe that a weak bitch partnered with a strong sire will produce a strong litter. The female is approx. 50% involved as is the male although many prefer to believe otherwise.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

The big difference is that it has to not shut off in drive on the field. That seems to be part of the problem that I am seeing. It starts on the higher level exercises. Just what I have seen from the GSD's in Mondio.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Don, I agree with most of what you say but not titling the dogs, male and female, would mean you couldn't sell them over here. And, to be honest, an experienced breeder can put them through their paces in SchH pretty quickly.
> Good breeders look beyond the SchH titles and selectt their dogs acordingly. I can't believe that a weak bitch partnered with a strong sire will produce a strong litter. The female is approx. 50% involved as is the male although many prefer to believe otherwise.


What your saying Gillian is that it is a matter of selling pups more so than producing a good dog. That is a reality but it is there. If you can't sell them there is not much point in breeding them. Like it or not, it is still business. As far as the weak female, I would never breed a weak dog to a strong dog and I agree with you. 
Why breed a weak female to any dog?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

QUOTE: It would be insane to waste their best years for titles and find out they can't throw the same, are poor mothers, can't birth naturally etc. Same goes for males. I think titleing some dogs first is much like putting the cart before the horse. The most tiltled dog in the world is useless to a breeder if he/she cant produce the same.

This is not a common thought process here. I was told today that there just are not enough people that can handle a strong dog here in the US.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> genetics and the depth he can discuss this stuff in amazes me. Makes me want to go to the library and read up on this stuff but I am too set in my ways.


If you can get through a TV program, NatGeo is premiering a show Monday 7eastern called "From the Womb: Identical Twins." The preview seemed there'd be alot of emphasis on epigenetic influences and how environment shapes behavior to create differences in genetically identical offspring.

Jeff, I've watched a few mondio videos, including your recent trial. We'll have to talk sometime so I can make better sense of what's going on. I don't know what higher level exercises are, but I understand testing a young pups ability to handle pressure.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Most of the GSD's I have seen have an inability to stay in drive when off the bite and are rather easily lulled into dropping out on lets say the escort, or the object guard.

Under the pressure at higher levels, the ability to inhibit is taking the form of dropping out of drive.

This is not all GSD's, of course, just most of what I have seen.

Speed is another. There are a lot of clunky unathletic GSD's as well. They are rather slow out of the starting gate.

Last, is thresholds, they are just to stinking high. I don't know of many decoys that want to work that hard to get a dog to bite. Not in the beginning, ever.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

QUOTE: Gotta give early development it's credit, though. I cringe when I hear "it's all genetic", as if nothing else matters. The importance of genetics seems to matter more in the care of certain owners who don't waste the potential.

What do you do with a bitch that has a great pedigree, but crappy thresholds ???? The genetics are there, the litter mates are good workers...................................

Good example of genetics meaning shit.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Could something have happened in early training to cause this? Is there anyway to remove genetics from a dog short of shooting it? You can take the very best dog with super genetics and in training have a crap dog because the training messed it up. Sure you can say that then the genetics were no good. That's a cop out. All the other litter mates work good.The dog was ruined in training. This same dog can and will pass those genetics to the litter. There IS a BIG difference in bad training and bad or good genetics. Trainers and decoys need to take responsibility and say," I screwed this dog up."


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

So high thresholds are not genetic???? WTF ????

I have seen dogs trained with the worst methods, the most brutal methods and they do well. Training can account for some, but not when it comes to thresholds. If the dog just isn't interested in biting, there isn't much you can do about it.

The bitch that I am thinking about passed her thresholds on. She was bred to a low threshold dog. I figured pet homes and was right. One of her pups was a doorknob. If he was lying behind a door, you had to push hard to slide him across the floor. Wasn't any training that screwed that up. LOL


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> So high thresholds are not genetic???? WTF ????
> 
> Why do you think they are not???
> 
> ...


Sounds like the breeding of those two dogs was not a good match. I wouldn't do a repete


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I guess I wasn't clear. Genetics are all fine and dandy, but when the thresholds are too high, there is no training. I had about 5 friends bugging me for pups. No way they were getting a working dog. I bred her because I have had the same experience with high threshold bitches in the past.

Not breeding her again. She is spayed and has a home taking care of small children.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Got'cha. My bad.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Genetics determines what a dog "can" be. Environment determins what it "will" be. 

Most give the the value of genetics a 35% as opposed to the power of environment at 65 %.

Over the years of line and inbreeding jay. I find one of the most elusive things to reproduce consistently is the level confidence which has to do with threash holds and nerve I would well imagine. Consiser that this is using dogs so similare they almost look like twins.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

No one can really assign a percentage to how much is environment and how much genetic, with expectations of encompassing all regards of character in terms of heritability. Some aspects are more heritable than others, or the phenotype is composed of so many genetic components, that the "right mix" is seldom replicated. At least as early as the turn of the century, it was recognizable that linebreeding was inarguably the most effective means of retaining character, other risks aside.

An excerpt from *Inbreeding And Outbreeding: Their Genetic and Sociological Significance* (East & Jones, 1919) 










In Quantitative Genetics, it's described that the variance in phenotype is the sum of partitioned genetic and environmental components. Variance is calculated as the average squared difference between individuals and the sampled mean.

*Vp = Vg + Ve*

Phenotype = Genetics + Environment

Genetic variance *(Vg)* is measurable when the environmental variance *(Ve)* is reduced, from a control population with a shared environment (also called homogeneous environment). Any occurring variance can then be assigned to genetics (i.e., plants grown in a common greenhouse).

By means of selection there are other methods of calculating the portions of phenotypical variance *(Vp).* _"If the mean of the offspring population is equal to the mean of the selected parents, then the character is fully heritable (Ve = 0). If the offspring mean is equal to that of the source population before selection, then the character has no genetic component and all the observed variation is environmental (Vg = 0)."_

Heritability is usually ascribed a value from zero to one, but is basically the same as the genetic portion of the phenotypic variance. Perhaps the most proven heritable character within studies in behavioral genetics is that of cognition, as I've outlined in a previous blog elsewhere on the net...



> **********Cognitive Ability**********
> 
> One of the most studied traits in human behavioral genetics is general cognitive ability (IQ), and it is here that the greatest magnitude of genetic correlations have been determined in behavioral studies.
> 
> ...


I'd venture to say, that the forementioned "raising of thresholds" are a form of "plasticity" of behavior phenotype. But this may not necessarily be a terrible thing. It might be that you're assisting the evolutionary process. Because: when selection favors one extreme of plastic expression to produce a variation in phenotype, that was "turned on" by response to an environmental pressure, eventually that character may become "fixed", or _genetically assimilated_, at a loss of phenotypic plasticity, but with a fully heritable characteristic, that no longer relies on the environmental pressure to hereditarily produce that phenotype.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Daryl Ehret said:


> No one can really assign a percentage to how much is environment and how much genetic, with expectations of encompassing all regards of character in terms of heritability. Some aspects are more heritable than others, or the phenotype is composed of so many genetic components, that the "right mix" is seldom replicated. At least as early as the turn of the century, it was recognizable that linebreeding was inarguably the most effective means of retaining character, other risks aside.


I agree Daryl, no specific percentages can be applied, but, it gives a person something a bit more tangible to associate the differences between the importance of genetis vs the environment to. 



> In Quantitative Genetics, it's described that the variance in phenotype is the sum of partitioned genetic and environmental components. Variance is calculated as the average squared difference between individuals and the sampled mean.
> 
> *Vp = Vg + Ve*
> 
> ...


I would think this would be an applicable approach to the discussion on HD. I am not so sure, to my way of thinking it is applicable here. As far as nerve and confidence and other threshholds, yes, you can see varying degrees of these things as they are in the process of maturing. You can't see the culmination of these things until a dog that has reached maturity.
What I want to see is a actually what nature gave the pup. I guess nature to be the inherited genotype with zero environmental influence outside the whelping box. This is what the pup will revert to under stress IMHO.
What I see in a 3 1/2 to 4 week old pup is a true picture of what he is like. After this is evaluated, I can better decide what pup is going to do best in a particular environment and that is where I try to place them. It is much what a pro trainer will do to pups that have been conmditioned to all want to be handles. They take them out, one at a time and use different stress techniques to "break them down to what they really are". My method obviously won't work for anyone that handles the pups from day one....so, with that thought, the qualitative approach may be just the ticket for most.



> I'd venture to say, that the forementioned "raising of thresholds" are a form of "plasticity" of behavior phenotype. But this may not necessarily be a terrible thing. It might be that you're assisting the evolutionary process. Because: when selection favors one extreme of plastic expression to produce a variation in phenotype, that was "turned on" by response to an environmental pressure, eventually that character may become "fixed", or _genetically assimilated_, at a loss of phenotypic plasticity, but with a fully heritable characteristic, that no longer relies on the environmental pressure to hereditarily produce that phenotype.


My head hurts Daryl. You have no idea how many times I have to read some of your posts to partially absorb a portion of it. I am not totally sure I have gotten the gist of plasticity in this format. At the risk of exposing my ignorance, I....I....I am going to take the fifth here. Hopefully you will rephrase so I know exactly what you are saying. I think I do, but....Dang Daryl, the only dog book I have ever read was "White Fang" and none of this rings a bell.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I am going to interject a couple of comments here. The art of breeding dogs has a lot to do with genetics. We all know that. All discussions concerning "better dogs through genetics" are just that, discussions. One of the most pointless discussions concerns population genetics and how all breeds are really at a dead end street. Consider this, most any breeder in todays world will save the weak in a litter. Everytime there is intervention needed for a pup to survive....you are likely adding to the pollution of the genepool with "weak" genes. So, why the discussions about better population genetics when the answer to a stronger population lies directly in the breeders hand? While I am sure that genetics will answer a lot of questions one day, it can't correct poor breeding practice.
Can anyone tell what two dogs are going to produce at this point when they are bred? Pretty much they can if they have made the same mating before but that isn't even a sure thing. I am not sure anyone could say even if there was a genetics lab at their disposal. The one sure thing is "after the fact". I think there are indicators right in front of us that are generally ignored. One is the preference of the female. Let's say you have an incredible, hard female. After the first try at procreation, males are afraid to try again. She is that tough. Yes, but you like this particular male so you muzzle the bitch and do it anyway. You just bred the bitch down and the resulting pups will reflect that. If you keep looking until you find one that she accepts, you will have a good cross. If you have a bitch that accepts a male you know to be a lesser dog, then the female isn't that hot either. These are the types of indicators I have always used.


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## Jimmy cazalas (Nov 1, 2008)

It's an old always interesting subject has to discuss. Personally I think that the male brings 50% and the female 50% but It 's a theoretical number. In reality, when we makes a breeding, some dogs go unnoticed and others have a strong influence on litter.. 
When I keep a female it's because she has too much qualities to "do competition only  ". 
Indeed, in breeding it is impossible to choose the genes distribution, but we can base the choice of the breeding female on her visible qualities at work. Of course, an average female can give very good pups, luck is part of breeding. But the more exact we'll be, the more lucky we'll be too...it is in the nature of things!

All bitches are not exceptions and we can forgive of perfect hips OR a disorder in social behavior if the bitch is realy fantastic at work . The breeder will found good combinations to delete this problem in desdendance.As well as a "good dog" is not enough to go to the championship, a "good female" is not enough to build up a working blood. In your case, like Daryl said, it is necessary to select the female when you know which male you wishes to use.


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## kamphuis gerben (Jan 29, 2009)

hello,just wanted to say something about the subject 
i think what really matters is that you dont breed just a litter 
as a breeder you have a picture in your mind what dog you want to breed 
if both parents dont even come close to this picture why breed but i think 90% will do based on stories from this strong bloodline which they never saw work in real live 
i think knowledge of the whole bloodline motherside and fathersside plus brothers sister from both parents will give you a much whider view 
i think its as important that the mother and father from your litter comes out of strong lines were brothers sister are working as well so not just one in the litter it will increase the outcome of a whole litter very much 
this also counts for grand mother father 
at least this is the way my father bred 45 years malis and its the way i do my breedings


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

dito on Gerben. We choose to do a lot of line/inbreeding 'cause you know the lines, you know how parents/grandparents/great grandparents and siblings did, act etc. For our outcrosses we use a line we also know well and we think it brings a surplus but not degenerate the good traits in our line.

@ Gerben: we use Rambo-line of my father  

For the genes: dam and dog give 50/50, but the dam is the one who passes on the first impressions to the pups, so her influence in the (learned) behavior is bigger imo. You want to have a very stabile dam and not a nervous rag to take care of a litter..


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## kamphuis gerben (Jan 29, 2009)

i have lot of respect for breeders whith an own mind 
people who have a plan for breeding 
dig deeper in 
not only for breeding but also to give the pups an ahead start by 
starting inprinting very early 
over lines whe can discuss for ages 
i think people or breeders choose their lines because they really like the type from these lines 
or maybe just by coincedence 
for example 
robbiev leeuwen was bred by gerard v hoek 
i think hes the foundation to your breeding why 
dick got him as a policeservicedog and loves this dog 
and robbie proven himself as a good stud by giving the type of ofspring dick loves to work whith 
very good reason to breed back in line 
but to say that gerard v hoek thinks very well over his breedings or that there,s a plan behind it 
so thats coincedence 
i think that many superproducers like rambo,arras w derks,berry hogeling,and so on came out of superlines but were bred by people who didnt had a breedingplan 
plus i think that people now have more knowledge about genetics,breeding,than in the past 
plus i think that the traininglevel is getting higher and higher 
in the past when my father bred you did well if two dogs from a litter titled
i think that had also to do whith training 
now i see lot of litters if you had picked the first or the last one yoy would got a supernice dog 
also the health i hear a lot of people say in the past whe never had problems 
but in those days they never xrayed a dog 
ofcourse now you hear more about health issues 
but i think its only good in the end it will leaves us whith better healthier and stronger dogs 
greetings gerben


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

You guys keep this up. I'm learning.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: 
i think that many superproducers like rambo,arras w derks,berry hogeling,and so on came out of superlines but were bred by people who didnt had a breedingplan

This is the dang genetic anomolies that drive me nuts. I have had them, seen them, and they alone or with only one other littermate produce beyond belief, if you are of the mind that the rest of their litter should do well.

I am not seeing so many as I used to see, need to look more for sure, but you have a good plan and work hard, say your prayer at night, and sure enough, your friend has a litter randomly, and out pops one of these anomolies. LOL


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I think the problem is people with a plan tend to breed to too much paper. The titled dogs. With line bred dogs, any one of the pups could be the best producer. With random bred dogs that is expected. With linebred dogs the tendency is to think the superdog is the one to breed to but not necessarily. Then again, the super dogs progeny may produce the super dogs. A lot seems to skip a generation. Regardless of genetics and all the advancements, you just don't know until you breed them. Any pup in any litter may be the best producer but most are passed over because they haven't got a title.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> Hello Lyn,
> I will tell you what I look for in my breeding females and I am sure many people will disagree but here it is.
> 1) PERFECT HEALTH - hips / back/ elbows , etc
> 2)INSANE DRIVES - drive to posses any object with total obsessive behavior
> ...


I agree with alot of this. I have had my share of aggressive females (I may still have some) and it can be a problem with them imprinting fear into the pups by going off at everything. The perfect combination is an extreme drive, strong nerved female to a serious, hard and dominant male.
However, one thing I do not like to see is a female who does not protect her new borns (less than 2 weeks of age) from strange people or other dogs. I know of females who when another female escaped into her room did not stop this other female from killing her pups. This female should NEVER be bred from again.
I have also seen a social high drive female GSD who when some strangers looked through the window at her pups, walked away from them and hid. She should NEVER be bred again.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote:
> i think that many superproducers like rambo,arras w derks,berry hogeling,and so on came out of superlines but were bred by people who didnt had a breedingplan
> 
> This is the dang genetic anomolies that drive me nuts. I have had them, seen them, and they alone or with only one other littermate produce beyond belief, if you are of the mind that the rest of their litter should do well.
> ...


I think if you find one of those super producers like Rambo Rossum then you would linebred on them. You also get what people refer to as "Golden Combinations". You see it in the KNPV breedings when Rambo was bred to Arras Derks daughters. This combination seemed to work above the average combinations. You also see it in some Czech/Slovak breedings. Car x Titus.
You then look at the bloodlines of Mikes male "Arko" and you can see his mother was hell inbred on the Rambo x Arras daughter. Do you think that Arko and his litter brothers and sisters are super by accident or by careful breeding?

I will tell you a story. I am very good friends with a Russian Doberman breeder and trainer who moved to my town. He is a Genetist by degree and his wife is a Dr. of Vet science. He told me about a lesson they were taught in Uni.
There was this Russian horse breeder who continually bred the best race horses in all of the mother country. He would not however tell anyone his breeding secrets. 
Anyways he became very sick and on his death bed he told his friends and family what his breeding secret was. He would only ever breed to horses who had the hair on the back legs that would go in a swirl patern. His secret was nothing to do with anything else.
This is how difficult genetics are. 
But as can be seen from show GSD's v's Working GSD's if you dont selectivly breed the toughest to the toughest you will get nothing.
The reality is that stud dogs very rarely produce as good as they themselfs are. You get some exceptions like Rambo, sure. So if you have one crazy extreme SOB with a pedigree full of other SOB's then if he produces only 70% of what he is you still get good dogs. If you get a nice dog with 8/10 prey, 6/10 fight and is a nice easy to handle and train dog then 70% of that dog isnt good enough.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I have tried to explain the sliding scale effect, but people actually believe that dogs produce better than themselves on a regular basis.

Plus, the translation from the brain to the fingers (typing) is shit. But then again, I should consider the sources. LOL

Tight linebreeding here is considered taboo. I have talked about it on other forums, and they start making hillbilly jokes. They think cyclops pups will be the end result.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

"Tight linebreeding here is considered taboo. I have talked about it on other forums, and they start making hillbilly jokes. They think cyclops pups will be the end result."

And that one or two "lucky" pups they produce on occasion proves their point Jeff. It is intersting in talking to breeders that they bred to a dog because he was good. Years later they still talk about that dog because he was still the best regardless of how many pups they bred.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Which is not really the point of a breeding program, now is it ??? ](*,)


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## Julie Blanding (Mar 12, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Most of the GSD's I have seen have an inability to stay in drive when off the bite and are rather easily lulled into dropping out on lets say the escort, or the object guard.
> 
> Under the pressure at higher levels, the ability to inhibit is taking the form of dropping out of drive.
> 
> ...


Jeff do you have any videos of this? I'd like to see them.
You could PM too if you prefer. 
Thanks
Julie


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Pretty much just hit you tube, and you will find clunkers galore. Let me see a video of your dog, and I will tell you if you qualify.

Soda PoP could jump over the 4 foot retaining wall at a little over three 1/2 months. She could jump high enough two weeks before that, but didn't understand the need for forward motion.

About 70% of the GSD's I see doing the a frame look clunky. They all just bang into it, and scrape over the top.

Currently at less than a year, she sails over the 5 and 6 foot retaining walls with little effort. Often she jumps from 10 feet back and Dr "J"s it.


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## Julie Blanding (Mar 12, 2008)

I have only been able to see a few videos of GSD doing ring, that is why I asked you.
I thought you were talking about coming out of drive, losing intensity, and having the decoy work too hard to get the dog to bite. What are you talking about now, the jumps?
I've posted videos of my clunker in the past and you didn't reply to them. Maybe you were trying to spare my feelings? 

Julie


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

I don't think Rambo was a coincidence, he was linebred on Eik


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> I don't think Rambo was a coincidence, he was linebred on Eik


Linebred on Eik? I thought he was a Eik son line bred on Flapy Rex?
I have heard it said in Holland that "Without Rambo there was no Eik". 
So what was Rambo like in the house? What was he like for your father to handle? I would love to hear more about what he was like to live with and train.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Christopher Jones said:


> Linebred on Eik? I thought he was a Eik son line bred on Flapy Rex?
> I have heard it said in Holland that "Without Rambo there was no Eik".
> So what was Rambo like in the house? What was he like for your father to handle? I would love to hear more about what he was like to live with and train.


you´re right, inserted the wrong name:???: damn hormones who causes forgetting everything.

Rambo wasn´t in the house, but kenneled. And in training it was a very though dog.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Speaking of breeding females, aren't you prego Selena ?? How much longer ?


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## Ellen Piepers (Nov 6, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Speaking of breeding females, aren't you prego Selena ?? How much longer ?


Luckily she's already given birth, otherwise she'd be quite overdue now


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

How many pups, and what is the bite like ?? LOL


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## Brigita Brinac (Jun 29, 2008)

Geoff Empey said:


> Call me silly or whatever, but to me what is important in a breeding female is knowing that the bitch *can work*. That means it needs to have 'real' working titles like a FR, PSD, SchH, MR, Ranch Dog or whatever, because all the rest is just lip service and should be treated as such. Plus saying that the bitch is trained to level 3 (insert title here) is all hogwash as well, without a piece of paper or score book signed by a judge saying otherwise that's BS lip service too.


>>No I won't consider you 'silly' but here are my thoughts:
I've seen countless dog with 'titles' who really didn't earn them. I've also seen many whose 'title' was bought prior to the dog's sale to NA.
Especially w/Malinois...historically, many of the best producers were so aggressive, not high scoring dogs and what society today would call a 'liability'.
Marketing 'genetics' is different from marketing 'paperwork'.
Why is it that with the exception of Sch there are so few females titled.
I've been to Holland, Belgium, and France on a number of occasions....and the same message came across....A female's worth is in her production record and to 'waste' so many years training and titling when she could be producing is illogical.
Final note: if one is truly a working dog person...one only has to meet or see the female's drives to ascertain if she is a candidate
In Europe a female is 'checked' on several times during the first year...ie., retrieve, play drive, pack drive, quality of genetic bite, agility, speed....and this is done regularly before a decision is made if she is 'breed worthy'.
The Europeans have been so successful with this approach that who are 'we' to question it????
It's a known fact that many great scoring dogs/performance dogs are not 'Breeding dogs'
For a bitch or male to be considered 'breed worthy'....many other criteria apply...The titles are the least. A dog person knows a good dog when he sees one.
Further, if I'm buying a puppy from a bitch....how do you ascertain what you see in the 'dam' is environmentally trained and what is genetic???? Afterall, titles aren't passed on...Genetics are.
Anyways, just some thoughts. 

Brigita


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Geoff, Brita,

You both have very good points.

I agree, the score book is the one and only proof of a title. Here, it is made out in the name of the dog and must be handed over if the dog is sold.

I know that high scoring performance dogs are not all fit to breed from but at least it gives you a guide to see what is around. You can check up on the dog and if the breeder has a website, check it out and talk to him about his ideals. Also breeders exchange views on forums about good sires (here there are advantages and disadvantages) but still, the truth will usually out.

Some breeders just flock to the No.1 at Worlds, some look into it deeper, thank God. On the other hand, the No.1 dog can be a good sire but nowadays they are very young so usually no progeny to check out. Most breeders I know or have heard of test the dog themselves or take a helper with them.


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## Brigita Brinac (Jun 29, 2008)

>>I know that high scoring performance dogs are not all fit to breed from but at least it gives you a guide to see what is around.

How so?

>>You can check up on the dog and if the breeder has a website, check it out and talk to him about his ideals. Also breeders exchange views on forums about good sires

Firstly, a website, direct contact w/breeder...means nothing...They can tell you what you want to hear...It may be the truth and it might not....

>>Some breeders just flock to the No.1 at Worlds, some look into it deeper, thank God.

I agree! Thank Goodness!

>>the No.1 dog can be a good sire but nowadays they are very young so usually no progeny to check out. Most breeders I know or have heard of test the dog themselves or take a helper with them.

I agree!

B


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> How many pups, and what is the bite like ?? LOL


Dennis was born january 15th, bite isnt tested yet


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Brita, forget the first two statements on my last post. I had gone "off track" and was actually referring to a handler wanting to buy a dog, not a breeder looking for a female.


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## Mike Jones (Jan 22, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I guess I wasn't clear. Genetics are all fine and dandy, but when the thresholds are too high, there is no training. I had about 5 friends bugging me for pups. No way they were getting a working dog. I bred her because I have had the same experience with high threshold bitches in the past.
> 
> Not breeding her again. She is spayed and has a home taking care of small children.


Jeff,

Not every pup in a litter will have superior nerves and working ability hence good genetics. Some pups will obtain genes from an ancestor that was not that great. That pup should be sold as a pet and fixed. In Captain Con Stephanix day that pup wold have ben killed. 

There has been some good information listed in this thread. I believe that genetics is important and it is the thread and fabric by which each pup is made of. However, the nurture element is very important as well. I was watching a program on explorer that stated that if the broad bitch was nervous during her pregnancy these characteristic would be passed to some of her pups. That program seemed to suggest that it was important to make sure that the b itch had strong character and the environment that the b itch was in needed to be conducive to raising healthy and well rounded pups. 

I believe in providing pups with as much early stimulus as possible when they are born it helps them to mature and deal with adversity. Of course there will always be those in the litter that will naturally be more superior, but that's genetics.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Uhhh, OK. LOL

I bred her BECAUSE I was almost positive that her threshold would pass. They did, AND, I did a lot of the stupid biosensor crap to make sure that they would stay high. One did sort of work, and was a very good boy for his owner.

I have a hard time with breeders that do not cull their stock.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Congrats on the kid !!!!!

Has Dick fitted him for a suit yet ????


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Selena, congratulations on the arrival of the new male.

This is one lucky little guy to be able to grow up in such an environment. I hope and pray he isn't allergic to dog hair](*,) 

All the best
Gillian


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