# herding video



## Meghan Rabon (Feb 10, 2009)

I thought maybe some of the folks on this forum would enjoy seeing a herding video from yesterday.
I started herding with my GSD about a month ago, taking lessons once a week...I brought my camera to our lesson yesterday to record her progress. It is HGH style herding so may be different from what people are used to seeing.

She is doing a really good job so far, she has a ton of drive and is really starting to understand how to work the border. I started the video after she'd been working for 25-30 minutes, she seemed to have slowed down to a nice steady pace so I thought it would be a good time to video. But then she catches her breath and is off like a rocket again. 

Here is the video...don't turn it up too loud because I do yell at her in the middle of it once or twice, lol. I guess I should just replace the sound with music or something.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrYMEou8p4k

I feel very strongly that a good GSD should be able to "do it all" and am very pleased about what a strong herding dog she is turning out to be!


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Hi:

I see you are in NJ. Are you training with Ulf? This is the first time I've seen the graze taught with a hot fence. At what point do you introduce the graze/furrow without the fence?


Terrasita


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Great lookin' girl


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Interesting method! 
When the fence comes down do you have good voice control? 
I can see where calm,heavy sheep would be a requirement for the tending style of herding.


----------



## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

VERY nice! so ARE you working w/Ulf? keep bring your camera and taping/posting. please??...gorgeous girl, BTW.

she did kinda turn it on there, didn't she?


----------



## Meghan Rabon (Feb 10, 2009)

I trained with Ulf for a while with my first GSD, but he is 5+ hours away now so that's not an option! I am working with Geary Loff here and I am really enjoying it! I didn't even know about Geary until recently and as soon as I found out about him I set up an instinct test. He is only about 15 minutes away from me so it's great! 

When I trained with Ulf it was 6-8 years ago I think and the dog was started out the same way. The dog I had at the time was very sensitive/soft and not high drive. She got to the point where she'd work one border without a fence but I could never really get her past that point. She would shut down and quit working and it was like pulling teeth. I know that Kessy's level of drive is going to make training a little more...exciting initially, LOL but in the long run it will only help.

The fence is not hot (if you mean electrified) it is just stuck in the ground to make a temporary graze. Since she is only working one side to start out with, the other 3 sides are natural barriers like trees, bushes and shrubs, sometimes a creek. Kessy has tried to go around it a few times - she is really quick - but Geary is there to chase her out and she does have good voice control so I can call her back.

He said he wants to see her working at a more consistent pace before we start taking down the fence. She runs like crazy til she runs out of breath, then slows down just long enough to catch her breath again and then she starts getting really fast again. If she could keep a consistent moderate pace much of the time, that would be ideal. Every time she is getting better though! It should come with more experience.
The other thing needed before progressing is that they need to show a sustained interest in the sheep and the ability to work the border but she definitely has that!

The next step is to start out with a gap in the fence and I will be inside with the sheep. She will need to work the border and to respect that she can't come inside of it. It will most likely take a few whacks with the crook to get the point across. As far as I can tell, all HGH trainers do it that way (correcting with the crook) especially if it is a strong dog. Once she gets the idea we will make the gap bigger and then eventually the fence will come down. From that point on she should pretty much work off of voice and hand signals and maybe the occasional crook thrown at her. She is really quick so I will have to be careful not to let her get by me and into the sheep when we start making a gap, but Geary will be there to back me up, and she will most likely drag a long line for a while as backup. She will have to take corrections from him as well as me, but she is fine with that so far. 

The sheep are NOT afraid of the dogs. If they know a dog is willing to grip they will behave for the most part, but if the dog is a wuss they will walk all over it. 

I will do my best to take videos and pictures! I really haven't documented my other training much, and I always wish I could look back and see how we progressed. So this time around I really want to keep track of how it goes. I do intend to get an HGH on her in the future if everything continues to go well with her training!


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Meaghan,

Thanks for the explanation. Looking forward to reading about the progression in her training.


Terrasita


----------



## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Meghan, How long does a session like that last? I never really watched a dog learning to heard. Watching that dog does make you appreciate the physical capability of some of these dogs. How old is she? Does the dog ever try to get around the fence or is that something that she has been trained not to do? 
Please keep the videos coming as she moves along.


----------



## Meghan Rabon (Feb 10, 2009)

I think the session length depends on the dog. Right now it's about 30-45 minutes. After she finishes working I call her over and she has to sit and relax around the sheep for a while. 
It's actually the opposite of what I had to do with my first GSD that I herded with - she had low drive and we'd treat it like building drive for schutzhund...remove her from the sheep when her drive was highest to keep her wanting more. But with Kessy we really don't want to get her any more pumped to work so she has to sit quietly for maybe 10 minutes before I put her away.

Kessy will be 4 years old in January. She has tried to go around the fence several times, and also has tried to run through it but she got corrected. She did this once at the lesson the video came from...I didnt get it on video though. She left the border for a minute and went about 20' away to pee. When she was done she charged straight at the fence, full speed, right into it. We both ran at her yelling, and she untangled herself and went right back to working the border like nothing had happened, lol.
It took two or three lessons for her to get the idea of lateral movement along the border.


----------



## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

nice, thanks


----------



## Meghan Rabon (Feb 10, 2009)

It's been a while, but I managed to get some photos and a bit of video today.

To update on her progress...it was slow for a while. Keeping her from getting over-excited around the sheep was a challenge, and she had a bit of a hard time understanding the concept of the border - she just wanted to come in and grab the sheep. We had to try a couple of different methods, but finally figured her out and it clicked for her. 
Since then she has been progressing well, she'll work the border on her own for the length of our lesson. At our lesson today, we took a bit step and started to teach her the second border. She took to it very well and understood pretty quickly what we wanted.

Here is the video...basically it's her learning to go around the pole to the next side. Then she goes to the end of the herd, comes back on her own, and is sent around to the other side. She's left to work on her own sometimes, and she's also called back if she doesn't go down as far as she should have on the second border.
In the beginning she gets a little excited...she gets the crook tossed in her direction (which she's developed a healthy respect for after a shot or two in the ribs), and she behaves herself again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jo5Kqqbn2Q

It might seem kind of boring but I could watch her work for hours!

Some pics...


----------



## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

I don’t know the first thing about dog herding but it is cool to watch. I would assume that you used to let your sheep out to graze or do whatever sheep do for the day and the dog would be there all day to watch them keep them together and bring them home? Was there a shepherd dude with the dog all the time? I would assume not. Thinking about a dog performing this job all day is pretty impressive. 
There any books on herding you would recommend for me you understand what was expected of a herding dog? 
 Sorry to get a bit off subject


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Here's a couple links with numerous articles.

http://www.german-shepherdherding.com/

http://www.whitecloversheepfarm.com/sh-articles.html


----------



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Coyotees and sheep neat...oh GSD!!!


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Very nice! It's so cool to watch a dog naturally take to a boundry (road tracks) and follow them. 
There are a couple of fields I train in that have trails in them and the dogs just naturally follow them.
Nice to see the dog settle into a trot also. That's when I know my dog is getting it.


----------



## Amanda Caldron (Mar 2, 2009)

Very interesting, I am new to this but I can honestly say this was one of the most fun things I have ever done and look forward to doing it with as many of the dogs that I can. My male had a blast got his first leg of HCT first time around but I did it for fun. I am so interested in learning more about it. Talk about control!!!! What are people's opinions though on others helping during training. My dogs first exposure to the livestock was with a different person that he had no respect for so didn't think to mind her at all and of course they used a stick or paddle to guide him or push him back (my dog thought it was for him to bite as I play with brooms, paddles, sticks, etc. with him.) I am confident if I knew more about what to do he would respond very well because he listened great for me although I had no idea what I was doing every time he tried to kill a sheep (only happened 2-3 times but never got more than a nip) i would tell him around and down and he did it. Is there another approach that is a little less against what i do with him now? I like the boardering idea of the fence but it seems to get my guy a lot more anxious to hurt them although it initially starts in herding instinct if held back it turns into prey. Love to get ideas from more knowlegable people. I live in illinois and there was only one lady near me that offers lessons and she is about 1 hr 45 min away. Thanks a bunch in advance really looking forward to learning more and doing more hopefully.


----------



## Amanda Caldron (Mar 2, 2009)

Oh and yes, a beautiful girl!!!


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Amanda, I think working with another person depends on the dog AND the other person. For instance, my dog Thunder now works well with Terrasita.....now! She's now a part of HIS pack but he does the work for her because it's HIS game. He responds to her, even likes her but the first time he saw her with a crook in her hand he let her know it wasn't going to happen. She simply tapped the crook on the ground in front of him and he stopped dead in his tracks with head and tail up, puckered mouth and a stare that could have burned holes. Over time he's now developed a respect for her. HER, not her power. He knows Terrasita is not a threat/challenge to him.
We try and work as much as possible without physical pressure and I seriously doubt anyone he doesn't know would get away with trying to "correct" him.
Without seeing your dog work I can't say for sure but I seriously doubt he is trying to "kill" the sheep. 
To many "herding trainers" (BC people) people out there that have no knowledge of a GSD's methods of herding and look at the gripping as something evil. It's what the GSD does. He controls stock with power and body pressure. Not necessarily with the "eye" that a BC uses. As he learns how to control with body language the gripping gets less and less. 
Absolutely nothing wrong with BC work but they are what they are and the rest of the herders are what THEY are. 
The fence can create frustration (barrier aggression) but once the dog begins to understand what's wanted it will smooth out. We don't use the fence but often start the dogs out using ducks in a crate until the dog "gets it". Terraista will jump in and hit me with a stick if I'm wrong. ;-)


----------



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Bob Scott said:


> ..." that a BC uses. As he learns how to control with body language the gripping gets less and less.
> Absolutely nothing wrong with BC work but they are what they are and the rest of the herders are what THEY are.
> The fence can create frustration (barrier aggression) but once the dog begins to understand what's wanted it will smooth out. We don't use the fence but often start the dogs out using ducks in a crate until the dog "gets it". Terraista will jump in and hit me with a stick if I'm wrong. ;-)


 Bob ya'll don't use a stick or your hands to push or "away" the dog with a visual barrier use? I have used a 3' broom handle with a plastic bag taped to the end. The swishing sound is enough to back the dog and sheep off. I tried doing the Man VS Wild style of video taping and doing some action...ran out of battery life, need a helper who isn't afraid of sheep!#-o


----------



## Meghan Rabon (Feb 10, 2009)

I can share what we had to do...I can't say I really know enough to give anyone advice though!

When teaching the border, we tried it first with her running along the fence, and gradually adding a gap for her to run by. After a few weeks of this, it just didn't click. The fence made her crazier to get to the sheep and she wouldn't calm down. So we had to do it with her on a long line, and me taking her back and forth along the border, gradually letting more line out..eventually it dragged. She still got excited, but it was more controllable.

As for letting someone else guide her - until recently, she pretty much ignored the trainer. It did take a long time for her to be willing to listen to someone else. But it is much better in the long run - he knows what he's doing, he's done it many times before, and so it's less stress on the sheep and the dog picks it up more quickly. 

She has tried to go after the sheep - we had a couple of close calls. But the crook was thrown at her, got her in the ribs hard once or twice, and she has a healthy respect for it now and understands that she needs to stay under control. She still gets excited now and then but not out of control.
Also - the crook is only thrown when she's not looking so it's not coming directly from the trainer. Although she does know him now and she will take corrections from someone she knows well...I'm sure she knows the crook is coming from him but since it's not a direct threat it doesn't seem to be a problem.

From my understanding - if the dog is "crazy" and just constantly wants to truly kill the sheep, and won't learn from corrections, it's not going to make a good herding dog. But I don't know if I'd say the behavior decsribed is trying to "kill." Your dog may just be more hard-headed.

For my dog - she has not been allowed to grip at all. It's been about control and trying to keep her calm. I think at this point she thinks she is not allowed to bite them at all, which is what we want. Later on, once she is more progressed, she will be allowed to grip when needed, and I am sure that will not be a problem! Some dogs never want to grip at all, they just like the chasing part - they still get the job done, but you lose 8 points in a trial if the dog doesn't display a grip! The sheep also may not respect the dog as much but in a trial situation it's usually fine.


----------



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Megan does the word FUN stick with your training? I enjoy this outlet for my dogs. The near misses and the almost broken legs...I could write a book on.............


----------



## Carlye Reid (Dec 1, 2008)

That's really neat. I've always used curs, so it's interesting to see the training process for another breed.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Meghan, 

I teach dogs that there is a working perimeter. It looks like the dog is working a boundary. With my bouvier, I can step to the outside and have the dog working the boundary on her own. Thunder is starting this training now. If we have sheep that are flighty, we work it with ducks in a pen or wire crate. Any dog that I've worked, including Thunder, understood the boundary/perimeter concept very quickly. It took Thunder two sessions. But very early on, Thunder showed containment instinct. He would group stock in the middle of the pen and contain them [all four sides] with me and Bob on the outside. That's a natural containment dog. Some dogs in the instinct test will group them in a corner and hold them there, but Thunder is the first one I've worked with that held them out in the middle doing a complete circle around. I had a corgi that established an area and worked on his own to contain a group of lambs in that area. He didn't do it with constant motion. We have a concept called "closing the door" in herding. Moving along the boundary actually accomplishes this. The dog is defining the area that he intends for the sheep to stay in. Watch a good LGD do this and its fascinating. I used to watch from the window as this dog did this on his own and then would go lie down. If the sheep strayed to close to the boundary he set, he would then move them back and move along his preset perimeter and go back and lay down. He distinctly kept them away from the gates and the fence that goes to the next property. 

With the type of dogs that I've worked, body pressure and stock sticks are highly ineffective. They come into pressure, not move away from it and don't care about objects. They will grab it, jump it, go through it--whatever. I also don't think the dogs really relate it to the stock work. If I want to use a stock stick as a boundary indicator, then I teach the dog away from stock to move away from the stock stick by tossing it treats. Then I'll use it on stock. A strong dog even without protection training will see a stock stick as agitation. My corgi bitch grabbed one in her teeth--firmly. I select against a dog that moves away from pressure. Took me awhile to realize this. You will end up fighting with the dog or it will get into abuse. A tough dog in drive hears nothing and virtually feels nothing. The dog doesn't get it. Thunder's move off was trained with a clicker and his tug toy. He fights in pressure. He's supposed to. Once he learned the move off, I introduced the rake as a boundary in the same way that I set up cones and feed buckets to mark the perimeter. I knew from the outset that he wasn't going to take body pressure from me. Bob wanted me to try it. We both laughed with that cold stare he gave me. I'd seen it enough in his bite work pictures. We've developed a relationship over the last few months and now I can get away with a lot. He sees me as part of the pack but make no mistake, I'm subordinate to Bob. Its because I'm clear and I'm fair. I'm also not trying to dominate the dog and understand how they read pressure on and pressure OFF. As Bob says, he knows I'm not out to dominate or threaten. I'm more about guidance than correction and giving the dog some information he can work with. He responds to my marker and will even platz if I say so outside the fence. We laughed last week. I figure I'm about a notch and a half above the grandkids. He'll barely pull on the tug with me like the grandkids. If I'm in the field, he responds to my flank commands and stuff but you see the pack order because he will only hold the stock to Bob. I respect that and don't interfere with it. You work a dog like Thunder and you aren't getting what you want--you failed to communicate.

Old school is body pressure, stock sticks, etc. I've moved away from that basically because of the type of dogs that I've had and it really doesn't fit my personality. You have to protect the stock but you can't get all wigged out over a grip and impede the learning process. I rely ALOT on Thunder's awesome obedience and drive training and I planned to from the beginning. He is evolving as a stock dog and Bob and I have had to make some adjustments with his drive increase. But that's to be expected. Right now to keep him crisp in the obedience aspects, the Balabanov work is the key. With the drive work, you are not shutting down drive but in the dog's head while he is in drive. Herding is very much based on a pack structure/relationship and aspects of the hunt relationship with his pack leader. However, its also based on the dog's relationship with the stock. Every trainer has its thing. That one is mine. I don't disregard the dog/stock relationship in the face of blind obedience. Often you will here me say, "the dog is right." I've had dogs many times see a situation, disobey a stay command, handle the situation and look to me. I gave them the thumbs up. They were looking out for me. They saw something that I didnt' and took care of it. Its prevented disaster many times. In herding we talk about "intelligent disobedience." I don't even say "train" a herding dog. I often say "develop." I'll admit, its probably slower but less stress and frustration for the dog. 


Terrasita


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Amanda:

I dont' instinct test with sticks, paddles, etc. I use a long line. If I'm not physcially capable of holding the line, I have someone back me up on the line. I don't expect to be in an alpha position with a dog I don't know. Why should he respect me. I don't feed him. I did the clubs Sch dogs. No way was I going to go in there waving sticks around and throwing body pressure. I learned ALOT from the experience and had a blast. I was not in any sort of alpha relationship with these dogs. Bob's young dog Trooper and Roger's Doc were two of my favorites. I could tap the line with Doc and he would give to the flank. A couple of those with the words and he was positioning with the word alone. At the start, he took a gung ho lunge and before I know it I was riding him and holding onto his harness. Too funny. At the point he knew I was working the line, he kinda just gave me a nod of acknowledgment. Doc is ALL dog and brings a certain hardness to the table and a lot of POWER. Of the two older dogs, he and Thunder really caught my eye. Trooper was very much a dog out to group and control and a bit toothy at times. I stepped in front of him and a sheep and said "play nice" and I swear he wiggled and said "okay." Fun should have been in Trooper's registered name. This dog has joy in his heart but he can go over to the dark side if you push him. Very high prey but stock sense out the whazoo. I don't expect a dog to do things in the instinct test that takes training to get. You do have to know how to work a line and a lot of people hate line work. It gives a chance to get the feel of the dog. A couple I didn't turn loose. Thunder from the get go was working the stock to Bob and had them glued to his knees. Trooper right away went between the fence and fetched them. Just a little more gripping to control. Raph was phenomenal in his ability to control with eye and mental pressure and that almighty rate that we herders so prize. I did have the opportunity to watch these dogs in obedience and bitework over several months and sort of knew what to expect. 

At this point, I might step in with Garth or Thunder to show something, but I mostly have the handler work the dog. Bob worked Thunder in the instinct test. I expected Thunder to group and contain and he did. My friend Sandra says I cheat. I always come up with the dog/handler teams that catch on quickly. The Sch group wasgreat. I was so intent on the dog and the stock, I didn't notice my feet in the lines. Those great handlers were making sure I didn't eat dirt.

Terrasita


----------



## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

hello Meghan, very nice dog. does mr.Loff herd with a beauceron. I think I took some bites from his dog.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Meghan,

Do you have a pedigree loaded for Kessy and I was wondering if you do any other stock work with her. As far as foundation is concerned, once she is working all (4?) sides of a border reliably, what's the next training step. 

Terrasita


----------



## Meghan Rabon (Feb 10, 2009)

Hi Timothy - 
Yes Geary uses his beaucerons for herding. He did do bitework with his male for a while but he doesn't anymore, since he found out the dog has a heart condition. 

I do think that HGH training we are doing is done much differently than many people do it, but to me what we're doing really makes sense. 

I think it is a lot about genetics as well as drive - if the dog doesn't have the right temperament for it, no excuses are made, at a certain point it's decided that the dog just hasn't made the cut. It may still be perfectly capable of doing other types of herding (AKC A, B, or C course maybe) but an HGH is out of reach.
As it was explained to me - not many dogs pass the instinct test, many of those will flunk out after some lessons, and very few are capable of an HGH.

I can't say that I know enough about herding to debate training methods. I believe that there are 2 trainers in the USA who have flocks, multiple HGH dogs of their own, and have had students who have trained and titled HGH dogs. And both of those trainers use the same methods...so if you're after an HGH, this is pretty much the type of training you're going to get  It is very different than other types of training but there is definitely a reason for everything.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Meghan,

I have a buddy that goes up to Ulfs every year and has trained one of his dogs to HGH. I plan to pick her brain when she's here in March. I also recently met a Fiona son out of a Sch male--Briggs. Nice dog. AKC C Course hasn't interested me much because rarely does anyone have the number of sheep to run more than 25 per run. Also, I do distinguish HGH from AKC C Course. Apples and oranges. As you said having the right flock for this type of work is essential and most don't. Case in point, a high drive dog in motion and sheep are grazing. Around here the sheep would attempt to flee to the next county. I've been fascinated with Manfred Heyne and Ellen Nickelsberg's work with him. I've also read several articles/interviews w/ Ulf over the years. However, there isn't enough out there to see the progression of the training piece by piece. I'm not above a physical correction on a dog [coming from me] and I'll admit, for mine, a cane to the ribs wouldn't be allowed by that's not up for debate and I do consider it personal from trainer to trainer. I always just tell people make sure you are comfortable with how the trainer is going to communicate with your dog and know his methods before you start.

If you are doing an HGH instinct test, what traits are you looking for in the dog and why do they wash out after a few lessons?

Terrasita


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I like the boardering idea of the fence but it seems to get my guy a lot more anxious to hurt them although it initially starts in herding instinct if held back it turns into prey.


> Amanda,
> 
> I know what you mean by this. Ran into this with my bouv early on. By holding her back on a line, I built so much frustration, she turned into a snapping turtle. She didn't redirect to me but bit the line. For a long time I had to be very careful and didn't do any more line work until she matured. Even now, I have to watch my time and whether I "load" her up to the point that she pops. The protection capping discussions, helped me get a handle on this. You have to walk a fine line and whoever is working the dog has to understand how the drives work. Frustration builds drive and BITE something. To help with the herding and drive work, get the Balabanov DVDs and start working the dog in the game and with the obedience. All that in motion, in drive work is applicable to herding. For laying the mechanical foundation training, I use ducks alot because they don't generally bring out the full tilt prey/fight that sheep do. My bouv is actually the exception to this. They are her ultimate prey trigger and I train her on them for a different reason.
> 
> Terrasita


----------



## Meghan Rabon (Feb 10, 2009)

I had a long post written out...but I lost it  It will have to wait til tomorrow, I spent way too much time on the computer today!


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Bob ya'll don't use a stick or your hands to push or "away" the dog with a visual barrier use? I have used a 3' broom handle with a plastic bag taped to the end. The swishing sound is enough to back the dog and sheep off. I tried doing the Man VS Wild style of video taping and doing some action...ran out of battery life, need a helper who isn't afraid of sheep!#-o


Howard, What T said!
The stick brings out fight in Thunder. Some may be from his Sch training but his basic reaction to threat is forward. He doesn't respond by moving out of the way. I can use it on the ground to show him his boundry but I just don't "confront" him with it. With T he'll try and take it out of her hands when it really frustrates him. I sometimes think he looks at her like a pesky little sister. :lol:
His "Move off"/ "Away" was taught with markers. Tug on the ground with a mark and reward with a game of tug for turning away from it. We just built on that. We've been able to put out feed buckets at first and he caught on to that pretty quick that they are his boundry.
I suspect he'd snicker at me if I tried waiving a broom with a plastic bag on it. Do you do that with your Bouvs or just the BCs?


----------



## Amanda Caldron (Mar 2, 2009)

Well let me explain my experience. There was a video of it but I recommended that it be taken down as it may hurt the trainers reputation. I remember being very upset but didn't know what to say or how I should have felt because it was not something I am educated in. My dog is a dutch shepherd and he showed great interest from across the field. When I led him to see the stock it was already after lots and lots of bitework that day (this was at a working bouvier event with carting, schutzhund, french ring, etc. going on) he immediately started patrolling the border fence. I don't know herding but I know drives and instinct. He went into a herding mode, after I realized he may do well and it would be fun for both of us either way I figured I would give it a shot. I did one session of training before my chance at his first leg of the HCT. My dog was on a long line that was made into this halter type thing that would tighten just under his elbows to pull him back had he gotten overly exuberant. (I also had an electric collar on him) The woman was small and very bold. I explained to her my dog does protection sports but that seemed to make her go harsher on him like he would care and respect her had she challenged him more. ???? didn't understand but again didn't know anything about this stuff. My dog is not the least bit threatened by any of the things she tried correcting him with and actually all things that she used he sees as bite toys (I play with him with brooms, paddles, sticks, batons, bats, etc.) so I did alot of outside vocalizing. She would pat it on ground to get him to back up and he would think it was time to bite that because it made sound so he grabbed it and then she would try and hit his legs to get him from biting and to try and get him to back up still and then he would bite it because she tried hitting him. Again lots of e collar corrections and voice commands on my end outside the fence. Half the training was the battle between him and her when she just let him go he did what he was suppose to do. He was staying on the outside of the sheep and was great at it. The only time he tried hurting the sheep was when one or two would seperate. I think that was more in the moment and he didn't know what he was suppose to do. He did it two or three times I think. The day of the test though he responded very well to me. I did alot more verbal than I know they would have liked me to but the guy thought he was great. I forgot his name. Think Larry something. Would just love recommendations since I am not too knowledgable and the last time I allowed someone else to take the lead it turned into a who's balls were bigger battle and neither were budging. I think my dog and I would have had a little more fun (we still had a blast) without him getting hit and me having to correct him very frequently for trying to attack the woman. Thanks again all and appreciate the feedback. Oh btw I saw some kelpies in real action that day as the livestock somehow managed to push the gate open and they had to bring 30-40 sheep back from the highway at some very elevated levels. Very very impressive!!


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Shudda let her bite the gal! 
With the stronger herding breeds that have a protection/guard instinct in them it's crazy to let a stranger correct them. Live and learn. ;-)

"When she let him go he did what he was supposed to do" :-o Go figure! :lol:
Yet so many herding trainers want to take that out of a good dog for the sake of control. With understanding, the dog will control itself. 
I'm making more mistakes in herding then ANY dog sport I've ever done. It's my control freak side that doesn't want to let the dog do it's job. Of course Terrasita doesn't spare the rod .......on me! :lol: :lol:


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Amanda:

You were at the NAWBA event this year in Wisconsin. The guy was Larry Painter who has awesome kelpies and cattle dogs. I've worked with him a lot. Unfortunately, some people don't believe that a protection trained dog can be trusted with livestock and don't understand you are dealing with the same drives. Having an e-collar on the dog can signal that you are worried about controlling him. But all that aside, given the breed, he had protection training and he had an e-collar, I would have talked to you about being in the pen with me and working him on a long line and NO e-collar, which if the dog is frustrated can escalate aggression, drive whatever you want to call it. Some people think they can put enough pressure on the dog and win a dominance war. I refuse to get into that type of battle with a dog I don't feed. Instinct testing is tough. You are there to protect the stock and don't have a lot of time to guage the dog and know what level of din din he may be after. You don't know jack about the dogs and the owner doesn't know how the dog will respond in the herding context. It can be a hard call. I generally caution people against instinct testing and tell them to go work with someone that will take it slow and work with the dog's nuances, age, other experiences, etc. 

Terrasita


----------



## Meghan Rabon (Feb 10, 2009)

Okay I'm back LOL
I will explain the best I can about what I've learned so far. Again I am no expert, and I realize this may be very different than what a lot of people are used to doing, but HGH herding has its own methods and is very specific.

So - "the instinct test" is with the dog on a long line or leash, and the sheep are behind a fence. The dog is led up and down the fenceline without any input from the owner. They are just there to hold the line to keep the dog from getting in after the sheep.

I think there are some dogs that seem to naturally know what to do - my first GSD was like that. I trained her with Ulf for a few months but this was years ago - so I may not be remembering correctly. But I think - at the start, that dog showed a lot of promise.

But for most dogs - all you can really see is whether the dog shows interest in the sheep, and you can get an idea of whether the dog is a nutjob or very spooky.

If the dog shows interest and doesn't have any obvious temperament flaws (and if the owner is not a nutjob or seems to have any obvious personality flaws!), the dog is allowed to come back and start to train.

Once you start working with the dog you can see more about its temperament. For example, with Kessy, we weren't sure whether she had just straight prey drive or if there was herding instinct there. After a while (longer than usual I think!) we could see that there was herding drive but the prey was overpowering it. So we spent a lot of time trying to balance the two out - it took a long time, but I think we finally did it.

Over time you can see the dog's nerves, biddability, work ethic, hardness, intelligence, etc.
Kessy is an extremely smart dog, and she really wants to please me. If she wasn't so smart or so biddable, it may not have worked out, she may never have gotten the border. But she did eventually get it, and now she is progressing very well. She does not shut down from corrections - that can be a deal breaker too. 
If a dog is very independant and doesn't care about pleasing its owner, or is a dog that doesn't learn from corrections, the dog may not necessarily wash out if it shows promise in other ways, but the training will be more difficult.
I've also been told that some people come to instinct tests and the dog is totally out of control. They are not brought back to train, even if the dog may show promise. If the dog is out of control in everyday life, it'll be worse when around sheep. 

There are some dogs that may not quite have a strong enough temperament for the work. There was one dog that washed out after training for a while. This dog was a showline dog, she didn't have a ton of drive, but she did a good job with the sheep in the graze. But - she wasn't a strong enough dog that she'd be able to move the sheep. She just didn't have it...if the sheep don't respect the dog, if the dog is not showing enough power, they may just refuse to move. The sheep are heavy, and sometimes the dog needs to make them. If the dog can't do that, it's not going to make an HGH dog.

My first GSD (I think this was about 8 years ago) showed a lot of promise from the start - she picked up the border very quickly, but as time went on it was evident that she was very soft and her work ethic wasn't very good. If I called her name in anything other than a very happy tone, she'd start to get very worried. And she couldn't take any kind of correction (verbal or physical), from me or anyone else, without shutting down completely. So all that promise at the beginning meant nothing. A very soft dog or a dog without a good amount of drive is not going to make an HGH dog. It may very well be able to herd with smaller flocks with sheep that aren't so heavy, but it won't be able to control 200+ sheep.

I do realize that the idea of someone else correcting the dog may not be okay with a lot of people, but I guess it's the idea of one good correction or a thousand nagging ones. The dog can't lose respect for the crook. If I was to throw the crook at her ten times and miss, she would lose respect for it. Also the timing and body language is very important. You need to wait til the dog is not paying attention when you throw the crook from a distance - so it's not coming directly from you or the trainer. To the dog, it comes out of nowhere. I'm sure they still know where it's coming from, but the way it's done, it's not viewed as a direct threat. And it's only done once the dog understands what's expected of it, so it realizes that there is a reason for the correction.

If I'd said "No, I am not okay with the correction" I very likely may have been told to go train elsewhere  But I have seen much worse on the Schh field, I am not phased by it...to me it's just not a big deal, especially since I know I wouldn't have perfect timing or aim with it.

And for the most part, the dog is allowed to work independently. Video was taken for maybe 1/3 of the lesson near the end, when we were introducing the second border. So we had to show her over and over what to do. My husband didn't record the last bit where I was sending her around from the middle of the graze - I think the camera battery had died (I forgot to charge it). But the video was only a few minutes of an hour and 15 minute lesson.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Meghan:

The temperment and instinct requirements you mention aren't any different than other aspects of herding. Your comments regarding Kessy's prey are interesting because I see that in the video. I see the border work as another type of herding job. I'm curious how the HGH trainer distinguishes instinct from prey?

Again, thanks for the comments and the progression. I understand that you are just capturing certain moments and not really the total picture.

Terrasita


----------



## Meghan Rabon (Feb 10, 2009)

I am still not 100% clear on how to distinguish prey vs. herding vs. boundary instinct. I will ask about that next week. 
At first she would charge the fence which is straight prey. Then eventually she'd start with the lateral movement, but from what he said, that could also be prey. I think the test was whether or not she could maintain a border on her own - she is not a natural at it - it took longer than usual, and she still cheats occasionally - but I think there must be some latent ability there or she may not have been able to learn it at all.

If I remember I will ask about how he distinguishes prey and herding instinct next week.


----------



## Amanda Caldron (Mar 2, 2009)

Yes Terrasita I was at the NAWBA event, Larry was amazing. He was the one who judged my dog for the HCT. He was alot more helpful. The other gal I think had the best intentions but probably hadn't worked with too many dutchies. I also understand how that was a iffy situation in itself but I think we both could have communicated a little better. Oh well we live and learn is right Bob.The point of the e collar corrections were to remind him that I was still there and he had to listen to me but it did make him noticably more on edge and I could tell he was getting more frustrated, the last thing I wanted was for him to feel like he was being attacked so that's when I would just tell him to down. The woman was completely out of breath at the end. Everyone who saw him said he was a natural but definately needed more exposur (even the trainer who did this with him, I think she was just like Terrasita mentioned not too trustworthy of him at first: she never meant to let him go he pulled it out of her hand then he did his thing and she got out of his face) No doubt in mind he knew what to do to move them as he did that extremely well he maintained a border, didn't get too close or charge, etc. he just had problems understanding what to do with the loose ones as they got back with the rest he went into a relief mode just maintaining that border again. It really was fun and I want to do it more!!! The closest to me is Shaun and Sharol Hathaway, any feedback on them? I already spoke to her about my dogs background but is there anything in specific that I should mention about the details of how to train it? Thanks again for everyone's help!


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Amanda, I know Sean and Sharol Hathaway, as well. No one will know the nuances of a Dutch Shepherd or and few really understand the protection training. Herding, particularly AKC herding has a tendency to favor a weaker dog. The trainers like dogs they feel THEY can control. The tendency amongst most herders is to shut down drive, not work with it. Its not really the protection training background, its the dog's mental package. I have had dogs that wouldn't work for others or take corrections off of them. I don't know what makes people think a strange dog should see them as a leader. I understand that you were out of your element, hence the e-collar, but I would encourage you to start developing a communication system that doesn't involve the collar for stock work. There are herding trainers that use them but I think there is high risk for error. [jmo]. I train with the dog's mental interaction with the stock as well as his physical placement in relathionship to the stock in mind. The collar can screw with the mental part. 

PM me so I can get a better geographic picture of where you are. Maybe I can come up with a suggestion. How far along are you in the protection training and which sport?

Terrasita


----------



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Bob Scott said:


> Howard, What T said!
> The stick brings out fight in Thunder. Some may be from his Sch training but his basic reaction to threat is forward. He doesn't respond by moving out of the way. I can use it on the ground to show him his boundry but I just don't "confront" him with it. With T he'll try and take it out of her hands when it really frustrates him. I sometimes think he looks at her like a pesky little sister. :lol:
> His "Move off"/ "Away" was taught with markers. Tug on the ground with a mark and reward with a game of tug for turning away from it. We just built on that. We've been able to put out feed buckets at first and he caught on to that pretty quick that they are his boundry.
> I suspect he'd snicker at me if I tried waiving a broom with a plastic bag on it. Do you do that with your Bouvs or just the BCs?


 Border Collies and I use my trusty cane. Helps when you're crippled up from the sheep.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Border Collies and I use my trusty cane. Helps when you're crippled up from the sheep.


Now THAT I understand! I've used the crook more then once to make it back to the car at the end of training. :lol:


----------



## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Border Collies and I use my trusty cane. Helps when you're crippled up from the sheep.


 
howard--shouldn't the BC's PREVENT you being crippled up from the sheep??:-\"

happy new year!! 2010!!


----------



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

ann schnerre said:


> howard--shouldn't the BC's PREVENT you being crippled up from the sheep??:-\"
> 
> happy new year!! 2010!!


 Ann please...my dogs are in it WITH the sheep. It's all a big show to cripple the "cane guy." Think about it this way, it's a win-win for both critters. The sheep get left alone, the dogs get to eat sheep poop, and they all get credit for the "wack job!"


----------



## Krisztina Kerényi (Jan 27, 2010)

Hi,

Here is a puppy herding "training". 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvkeIdsyENc


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Fun to watch. Thanks!


----------

