# Bitework Schedule



## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Pup is almost 9 months old. Started bitework and obedience 6 weeks ago. Doing great, but the car ride is far (2 1/4 hours one way...), so I go once a week. 

Is this OK or just inefficient? I'm thinking of adding some element that I could also do 2 times more a week in addition to the club I'm at now once a week. 

Pup would still be learning from my club instructor but I'm thinking the other sessions (locally) would be just practice.

Do people get together like this or is it counterproductive to the bitework this early?


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

With our club everybody is expected to work their dog on their own. When my dogs where that age I would do 6-10 very short OB session per day. 2-5 minute sessions. We always attention heeled from room to room. I was unemployed at the time so I had all day to do this. 

We did drive work every day. At 9mos you shouldn't be doing anything beyond soft bite wedge if that. Play the balabanov game, stake your dog out build drive and continue with OB, then at the club show your efforts to the trainer and he'll tell you where to go next.

OB wise, I worked on long downs in my room multiple times every day while I was on the computer or busy picking up dog mines or getting feed bowls ready. Aside from that, I only worked on one thing per week...Sit, Focus, Heeling, Front etc.



Ted White said:


> Pup is almost 9 months old. Started bitework and obedience 6 weeks ago. Doing great, but the car ride is far (2 1/4 hours one way...), so I go once a week.
> 
> Is this OK or just inefficient? I'm thinking of adding some element that I could also do 2 times more a week in addition to the club I'm at now once a week.
> 
> ...


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## Pauline Michels (Sep 1, 2006)

Well I am kind of OCD in this area but here's my opinion: No one does any protection work with my dog except our regular TD during the foundation work period. Obedience could be done elsewhere if the training philosophy is the same or similar.

It is better to have your dog worked once a week with the trainer you are working with on a regular basis and that you chose because you have confidence in. Working more often with people who may do things differently can set your dog back rather than help him get better.


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## Chris Wild (Jan 30, 2008)

Pauline Michels said:


> It is better to have your dog worked once a week with the trainer you are working with on a regular basis and that you chose because you have confidence in. Working more often with people who may do things differently can set your dog back rather than help him get better.


I agree. Also, with a 9mo dog you are going to be a bit limited on what can be done in protection until the dog matures more. Bad training is far worse than none or not enough training, and the worst mistake that can be made with a young dog is to try to push too fast and do too much too soon. 

My experience in SchH has been that for most good dogs receiving good helperwork doing bitework once per week is sufficient. Due to schedule constraints, distance to club, etc... myself, our club members, and most of the SchH people I know only work with their club and helpers one day per week, usually 2 rounds in that day. Sometimes 2 days per week, but that usually only in the summer months. And the dogs aren't held up in any way, shape or form. In fact, the most common hold up for having a dog ready to title that I've encountered over the years seems to be the tracking. 

In tracking and obedience, people are expected to work on their own in between club meetings. Obedience pretty much daily, short 10-15 minute sessions, 2-3 times per day are best, and tracking on their own once or twice per week, in addition to the tracking and obedience done at the club. With the novices, we pretty much give them "homework" in the sense of watching how things go at club, identifying areas they need to work on, showing them the next step, etc.. and then they're responsible for working on their own during the week.

We also tell them to plan their training sessions at club wisely, to maximize results. Club meetings are the time to work on distractions, gunshots, working around other dogs, holding the long down while another dog is retrieving, heeling through groups, retrieving over the equipment, etc... Things that require club resources to do, and that people can't work on during the week at home. It's not the place to be doing basic teaching, like a sit or down. That's what training at home is for.


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

Pauline Michels said:


> Well I am kind of OCD in this area but here's my opinion: No one does any protection work with my dog except our regular TD during the foundation work period. Obedience could be done elsewhere if the training philosophy is the same or similar.
> 
> It is better to have your dog worked once a week with the trainer you are working with on a regular basis and that you chose because you have confidence in. Working more often with people who may do things differently can set your dog back rather than help him get better.


I agree completely. The best plan is to stay on plan with your TD. 1X per week at his age should be plenty. With a good pup you will make good progress. After your dog is older and doing all the bites/ guarding well then you could think about using another helper whom you have watched and trust and is similar in the work.

Julie


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## Chris Jones (Jan 26, 2008)

Ted White said:


> Is this OK or just inefficient? I'm thinking of adding some element that I could also do 2 times more a week in addition to the club I'm at now once a week.
> 
> Do people get together like this or is it counterproductive to the bitework this early?


There is alot you can do working with bitework on your own from what I understand. I work alot with my own dog with tugs then puppy sleeve just building drive and getting a good solid grip. 

There is an interesting video by Bernhard Flinks entitled "Preparing your dog for the helper" in which he explains that you can do most of the early work yourself... http://www.leerburg.com/310.htm

To quote:
"Bernhard shows people (through a step by step training program) how to work with their own dogs at home or at their Schutzhund Club. By training for 1 1/2 to 2 minutes at a time, two or three times a day, trainers can establish the foundation and technique of gripping, biting, carrying, and outing."

Being that Bernhard participated in the Bundesseiger five times I find it hard to ignore his philosophies. 

http://www.b-flinks.de/

JMHO


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## Pauline Michels (Sep 1, 2006)

A new handler really needs to be careful to prevent unintended pressure on a pup. Something as simple as eye contact or body position could cause a set back in training.

If you are using a tug in at-home obedience training make sure the pup has a correct, full grip on the tug. That would be the extent to which someone inexperienced should go into "bitework". 

If you are getting instructions on how to tease and reward with the tug (or ball) in such a way that it will compliment what the helper does, you are doing your part helping with his grip development and protection work.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Pauline is definitely right on this. I was screwing up my dog's grip by not doing it correctly. Thankfully Jim Laubmeier (a recent member to this board) helped me get it straighted out. In fact, we're still working on it.

There are still things a handler can do with a young dog - play the balabanov game, use a flirt pole, play rough etc. Smack your pup around. I've been smacking my dog around, always in a positive and playful manner, and he loves it. By 9mo we were at the point where I was hitting him as hard as I could with couch cushions or pillows and he'd just keep coming at me. 

Just have your TD show you how to set grips.





Pauline Michels said:


> A new handler really needs to be careful to prevent unintended pressure on a pup. Something as simple as eye contact or body position could cause a set back in training.
> 
> If you are using a tug in at-home obedience training make sure the pup has a correct, full grip on the tug. That would be the extent to which someone inexperienced should go into "bitework".
> 
> If you are getting instructions on how to tease and reward with the tug (or ball) in such a way that it will compliment what the helper does, you are doing your part helping with his grip development and protection work.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I agree, leave most of it for the helper, especially if you aren't an experienced decoy. It's awful easy to miss little signals of stress when you are in the thick of it, or bad grips, things that can screw with the dog. It's not about disregarding a very accomplished trainer, it's understanding there are many theories and you must pick what works best for your dog, as well as recognize what your experience level dictates you can do.

If I was going to do it myself, I would probably first show the club TD & or helpers what I wanted to do to see if he/she thinks that it's a good idea with my particular dog and also so they would be able to let me know if I was doing it right.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Susan said;
"If I was going to do it myself, I would probably first show the club TD & or helpers what I wanted to do to see if he/she thinks that it's a good idea with my particular dog and also so they would be able to let me know if I was doing it right."

Similar to what we do. We're very particular with the new folks at club. Unless they've had expierience before, we don't want them doing any bite work of any kind at home.


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Those all seem to be logical and pretty much what I expected. THanks to all for sharing these great insights. Very helpful to a newbie like me.


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## Trish Campbell (Nov 28, 2006)

Keeping your pup with the same helper I believe is fundamental for his foundation in bitework at his young age. Especially if you are new to the sport, it's good to have someone very knowledgable exclusively working that pup to work on grips and targeting, that foundation needs to be consistent I think.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Why wait so long before doing bite work? You say it is 9 months and it was started at about 8 or so. We do all bite work at 7-8 WEEKS, not months. During the teething stage you don't pull on the rag or tug. Slip and wins and driving w/o bites are key to later protection training. You miss too much important training time by waiting.


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Howard,

There are a lot of opinions on this. Most opinions I solicited suggested waiting until 6 months. 

Prior to that I did plenty of tug work, except when he was teething.

Even now some suggest that a wedge is all that I should be doing at 9 months.

We started at 6 months. He's 8 1/2 months now.

Currently, he works on a puppy sleeve with the TD. Working beyond the TD expectations, actually.


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## Will Kline (Jan 10, 2008)

I almost started a post on the timeline for bitework with puppies/young dogs but chose otherwise. I ,like you Howard, started my puppys bitework training at 7 weeks of age. The day after I got him. Nothing over the top, just a few bites on the tug and tons of play. In Teds post, he describes that tug work has already taken place. I believe there may be a semantic issue at hand. What you call bitework includes tug play and *I think *Ted feels that bitework is formalized biting to include targeting. Correct me if I am mistaken Ted. 

In any event, I have spoken with numerous trainers here in the U.S. as well as some from France (Since I do French Ring), and the opinions vary as Ted states. Some say "let the puppies be puppies" and do not start *ANY* training until 1 year and others choose to start when they get the pup. I chose the latter and he is doing very well. 

Some say don't wait that long and possibly waste valuable training time and effort on a dog that may not pan out and therefore should be tested earlier, while others feel that particular "lines" or "breeds" of dogs do not mature fast enough to give an adequet evaluation at a very early age.

In the end all that matters is that you are happy with the progress of your dog and their performance on the field. \\/


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Will, you are right on track, and thank you for clarifying this. 

Pup started tug work and flirt pole at 7 weeks. I got him at 8 weeks and continued tug and flirt. Chasing balls, etc. Balls and rags.

At 6 months pup formally started with TD at the club with a long tug, but moved to a puppy sleeve the next week. Been doing really well, and I'm very pleased.


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## Trish Campbell (Nov 28, 2006)

I understand what you are saying Will...I think though as a new person trying to even do tug with a pup..it would be good to be shown the proper way to do it. You want to make sure you reward the pup when the bite is full, if the bite isn't, how to make the dog counter and regrip deeper..I know it seems like little things, but better to have someone show you the right way, vs having to fix problems when they are older.


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## Will Kline (Jan 10, 2008)

Trish Campbell said:


> I understand what you are saying Will...I think though as a new person trying to even do tug with a pup..it would be good to be shown the proper way to do it. You want to make sure you reward the pup when the bite is full, if the bite isn't, how to make the dog counter and regrip deeper..I know it seems like little things, but better to have someone show you the right way, vs having to fix problems when they are older.


I completely agree Trish. The first day with my lil guy was a long drive home: 5 hours and then a long afternoon/night of snuggling.  Opps, did I just post that? :-o Ya, ya, I am a sucker for puppy breath and cuddling with them! 

Anyways, the first tugging session we did was at the TD's house under supervision and detailed explaination was given as to the proper technique and rewards for biting and regripping. I was lucky since I was the only guy there with a pup or dog for that matter as the others were still waiting to get their pups from France. :wink:

Also, I am lucky enough to live 10.2 miles from the TD's house so we get to train 2x per week regularly and 3x week quite often (personal schedules considered). I am on a HUGE learning curve as I am now the "fresh meat" decoy in training!


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Will I think you and I are seeing, doing and saying the same thing. Ted you are not wrong in doing what you are doing. But in working with working dogs and dogs for PP purposes it is all about timing. If you have done the rag, tug and puppy sleeve great. What I would caution you on is DO NOT race into bite work and DO NOT put any defense on a young puppy. 

Too much obedience can also screw things up. If you haven't, get on my website and see a puppy called "Zahn." It is now 8 months old and has been worked in prey from 7 weeks of age! It is now a little a$$ eater and knows no fear. In fact, it will not see any real defense until it is closer to one year of age. Then I will find a new decoy for the owner and I will stand back and watch the butt whoop happen. I feel this thing will be the standard for all GS at our club. The owner turned me down at $2,000 for the puppy at 6 months of age!


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

I think we're on same page as well. I talked to a lot of people (many here) and watched videos till my eyes bled.

Now I follow direction of TD. The breeding (Czech) and tug work really paid off. He's really into the bitework, very confident and bites to win.

Howard, I'm not seeing that link to Zahn...


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## Trish Campbell (Nov 28, 2006)

LOL! Will, I'm a sucker for puppy breath too...how lucky to have your TD so close. I thought I was good with mine within 30 minutes...


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Go to the sections for the DELMARVA WORKING DOG GROUP on my site. In some of the pics there is a young German Shepherd owned by Jennifer and Mike Adams. Zahn is about 8 months old. Dark color sable. Not all training directors are good and not all know working breeds. Some will try and push a young dog into defense too early. If that sounds like yours don't let them do it!!! Been there, done that, with regrets.


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