# Diet and Cancer



## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Is a dogs diet related to a dog getting cancer? There are different types of cancers obviously. Just wondering if they are things we can do to prevent the likelyhood of a dog getting it. For example if a dog is fed raw is that healthier then a dog fed a more processed commercial dog food. 

I was at the pet store the other day and the woman in front of me bought vegan dry dog food. I asked the clerk why in the world people made that. And she said it was for dogs with allergies.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Everything is linked to cancer...if you talk to the right people....

Just like human food...


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## Angelo Berios (Aug 15, 2011)

I lost my last dog to cancer. It was devastating, because she was this amazing bundle of energy and drives. At the end and about 6 years old, she could hardly walk(although in her last breath she still tried to tug with me on a full bite). It is a terrible disease, and yes it has a lot to do with diet among other things. (Following that, we also lost close members of the extended family. I ended up researching the disease a lot. Joby, is not far at all mentioning the human element and food.)

Food and proper diet is one of the things we control. There are carcinogens in processed foods, that can come from both animal and vegetable sources, cooked quickly in high heat. Polluted water, pesticides etc. out in the fields, are others. I think some rubbery toys and balls could be a problem as well... Boosting the immune system is important sometimes. Especially when dogs are overworked. Not much different than humans.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> Everything is linked to cancer...if you talk to the right people....
> 
> Just like human food...


I just about drove myself nuts trying to find the perfect diet for myself to eat. The only thing they all agree on is trans fats are bad everything else they disagree on.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Angelo Berios said:


> I lost my last dog to cancer. It was devastating, because she was this amazing bundle of energy and drives. At the end and about 6 years old, she could hardly walk(although in her last breath she still tried to tug with me on a full bite). It is a terrible disease, and yes it has a lot to do with diet among other things. (Following that, we also lost close members of the extended family. I ended up researching the disease a lot. Joby, is not far at all mentioning the human element and food.)
> 
> Food and proper diet is one of the things we control. There are carcinogens in processed foods, that can come from both animal and vegetable sources, cooked quickly in high heat. Polluted water, pesticides etc. out in the fields, are others. I think some rubbery toys and balls could be a problem as well... Boosting the immune system is important sometimes. Especially when dogs are overworked. Not much different than humans.


Did you end up changing what you feed your dogs or are you going to? For example processed kibble to raw? Or were you feeding raw? Thanks


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## Mark Horne (Oct 12, 2006)

90% of cancers in humans are apparently linked to lifestyle the remainder being hereditary i.e. diet and exercise.

Dogs are 5000 times more likely to develop cancer than humans, despite regular exercise, no alcohol, tobacco, less stress, and no money to go to Macdonalds.

The mains suspects being processed dog food and annual vacinations.
Think what the the big companies get into the human food chain then try and work out whats left for dog food.

Most of us had vacinations when we were children that will last our life times, but an animal that eats raw chicken and cat sh*t some how needs annual jabs!

I grew up on a farm with my grandparents, they were poor, yet all our dogs lived until their mid teens, they never had proper food only scraps, I've seen dogs fighting over spud peelings and cow afterbirth, they never had jabs, neither were they wormed (they should have been).

Having lost a lovely dog this week to cancer which led to paralysis from the neck down in 3 days from diagnosis, I have now bought an old freezer and filled it with green tripe and chicken wings.... it's a start.

Mark


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Mark Horne said:


> 90% of cancers in humans are apparently linked to lifestyle the remainder being hereditary i.e. diet and exercise.
> 
> Dogs are 5000 times more likely to develop cancer than humans, despite regular exercise, no alcohol, tobacco, less stress, and no money to go to Macdonalds.


Sounds like 78.3% of your statistics are made up on the spot. Cite your sources. :-s



> The mains suspects being processed dog food and annual vacinations.
> Think what the the big companies get into the human food chain then try and work out whats left for dog food.
> 
> Most of us had vacinations when we were children that will last our life times, but an animal that eats raw chicken and cat sh*t some how needs annual jabs!
> ...


Being a holistic minded vet, I like to be judicious with vaccinations, but it also really sucks to die of parvo, rabies, distemper, and leptospirosis. You shouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water. Most vets these days are fine with the three year protocols, as is the American Animal Hospital Association.

Being in the middle of Missouri, there is a lot of very rural and often very poor areas I've been to on farm calls. I also work for a shelter doing spay/neuter one day a week in rural Missouri and a lot of those dogs get very little care, poor diets, and it shows. I don't blame you for wanting to do right by your dogs, but I think sometimes people reminesce about the good ol' days on the farm when it might not be as idyllic as you think it was...


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Ben Thompson said:


> Is a dogs diet related to a dog getting cancer? There are different types of cancers obviously. Just wondering if they are things we can do to prevent the likelyhood of a dog getting it. For example if a dog is fed raw is that healthier then a dog fed a more processed commercial dog food.
> 
> I was at the pet store the other day and the woman in front of me bought vegan dry dog food. I asked the clerk why in the world people made that. And she said it was for dogs with allergies.


Many types of cancer are genetic and some breeds in particular are known for getting certain cancers. For example, osteosarcoma in Rottweilers and greyhounds, hemangiosarcoma in German shepherds and goldens, and mast cell tumors in boxers. Until we do actual studies with multiple litters and put a third of a litter of pups on a standard kibble diet (say Purina Dog Chow), a third on a more natural kibble (say Wellness), and a third on home prepared diet (cooked or raw), and then watch them over the course of a lifetime. Those are incredibly expensive studies to do, so it may not ever be done. Do I prefer a more natural approach? Absolutely. But until we do the studies, it's going to be speculation and n=1 anecdotal stuff.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> ... Being a holistic minded vet, I like to be judicious with vaccinations, but it also really sucks to die of parvo, rabies, distemper, and leptospirosis. You shouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water. Most vets these days are fine with the three year protocols, as is the American Animal Hospital Association. ...



On top of this, living through an epidemic or two can really modify a POV. (In fact, I contracted polio during one of the huge epidemics of the 50s when Salk [Sabin was a bit later] was just making his presence felt with school vax. Now, like many many of the paralytic-type survivors, I have post-polio syndrome, after decades of apparent freedom from the virus's effects.)

Not everyone here, thank goodness, has experienced the wholesale devastation of something like the annual summer terror of polio (and polio, of course, is almost a picnic in the park compared to some terrible illnesses that were eradicated only with vaccines).

I'm about as cautious as you can be about overvaccinating, overuse of antibiotics, and some incredible BS spewed by the big pharma houses; I also think Purina and Hills and some others have a lot to answer for.

But no, I can't say that it's all (or even mostly all) bad. 

The trick is that fine (and always moving!) line ..... 

JMO, though!

And yep, I do believe I have seen compelling research connecting human diet and some human cancers. As Maren says, though, the research for dogs just isn't there (and may never be). 

For my dogs, I stick as close as I can to the best I can afford that's within the category of what I consider to be species-appropriate food.


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## Melissa Thom (Jun 21, 2011)

I think some really great studies could be done with some of the breeds that are nearly guaranteed to get cancer (like golden retrievers) and some of the cancer causing theories like over too much floride being consumed through sources like drinking water in combination with foods rich in bone meal, or the role of fish meal of questionable quality being used throughout the food chain and the impact of heavy metal toxicity the higher up the food chain/web you go might be something to think about. 

Clean air, good soil, eating lower on the food chain from point A to point C would all be helpful I'm sure.


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## Angelo Berios (Aug 15, 2011)

Ben Thompson said:


> Did you end up changing what you feed your dogs or are you going to? For example processed kibble to raw? Or were you feeding raw? Thanks


Feeding quality kibble and dehydrated THK-style foods for now. Planning on introducing to raw slowly. I am trying to learn as much as possible about raw first. Raw and prep is a process. This board and several related threads in here, are proving very helpful. 

Vaccination as Mark mentioned is another issue... However, we have to keep in mind the real utility and at times benefit of vaccines as Connie and Maren touched on. 

Connie, this is a great summary-tenet:
"For my dogs, I stick as close as I can to the best I can afford that's within the category of what I consider to be species-appropriate food."

On scraps etc.:
My father used to have hunting dogs, which, we also occasionally bred. I sort of grew up with them and for a long time, I was in charge of them and their food. Their primary diet was table scraps and leftovers from home and the nearby restaurant. They ate cooked bones(sometimes with some meat on them), meat, sauces, spaghetti, soups, and bread. Cooked greens and sometimes salad(they did not like pure salad unless it had some olive oil on it). We never fed them chicken or turkey bones though. I was told that those could choke them(the opposite to what Raw advocates and practices. I guess we were told no chicken bones because they were cooked almost always). The only ones on special cooking-diet at times were pregnant and lactating bitches, and young puppies. All of our dogs were very healthy and they died of old age, except one that was mine, killed in an accident. Never had any accidents due to food or any of the issues that I have dealt with my dogs here, and also I read about every day.

Regarding the studies that could help some more, unfortunately, the same holds for animals as it does for humans. Especially for food related research. Unless there is potential for patents and short term monopoly protection, it is very hard for funding to come by. A patented med can yield a lot more than a preventative diet and lifestyle...


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

With my first 2 dogs when I was young and nutrition of dogs was a black box, I fed them on the best supermarket kibble and cans I could afford. Notably Pedigree. One had a major flea allergy and the only thing that worked a treat in those days was a cattle spot on which was an organo phosphate and I had to guess a dose. They were vaccinated every year. 

Despite all of that they lived to 17 years and 15 years with lot a of energy and with no major health problems,. They were station bred cattle dogs from very robust lines and I believe that genetics plays a big part in it all.

There are chemicals in agriculture and the environment and heavy metals, much worse in some countries etc. Mind you when I grew up there was probably plenty of organo chlorines in meat and milk from DDT. 

I now feed a mid range quality kibble, add raw meaty bones and give them a few vegies, vaccinate them every 3 years and so far so good.

I had a great uncle who smoked and drank in large quantities and ate a terible diet and baked in the sun all his life till he was 95. He was awash in free radicles. Must have been the genetics taht got him through.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Ben, if you give it some more thought and serious research, i think you will find pretty quick there won't be an answer to your Q in the near future

regarding diet and nutrition having an effect on health...no brainer of course

maybe in another few decades the overwhelming "anecdotal" evidence that raw fed diets are the healthiest may emerge.....anecdotal is usually a word the "scientific" community brings up to refute that type of data, but it can be true or false depending on a lot of variables.....but to make a blanket statement that all anecdotal data is "bad" and irrelevant ..... is myopic imo

has there ever been a definitive study on the comparisons of the types and frequency of cancer acquired by wild canines versus domestic canines fed by people ? doubtful ? would that be conclusive ? quite possibly; who knows......will it be done ? who will fund it and what would they get out of it ? 
.....PURE medical research for PURELY scientific value is rare imo 

but here's an "anecdote" that may be typical....that could be used by either side
i adopted a six year, grossly overweight golden with bad itchy skin problems, red ears and "other" problems that had been hinted at but not tested and proven to be either diet related or allergy related by two different vets
- i switched the kibble diet to raw cause i'm a raw feeder, which was against both vet's advice, due to the "blockage" and bone obstruction criteria
- dog lost weight and other problems cleared up...smooth shiny coat that people thought was because of frequent shampooing and grooming, but i never shampooed her again after i got her. vets said it was probably due to different owner and different "environment" and a "happier" dog (but previous owner loved it and spoiled it)
- three years later developed hemangiosarcoma (splenic) and was dead in two months...it's a nasty cancer and the way i understand it, once it shows in tumors, the dog is pretty well waiting to die no matter how much you want to spend cutting it up and throwing chemo on it to prolong life

and then again, maybe wild dogs don't live long enough to develop sarcomas like our dogs, so it might be a domestic canine "benefit" rather than a curse ....

also purely anecdotal but absolutely true imo - we usually outlive our dogs and it's usually just as sad as it is happy


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

rick smith said:


> Ben, if you give it some more thought and serious research, i think you will find pretty quick there won't be an answer to your Q in the near future
> 
> regarding diet and nutrition having an effect on health...no brainer of course
> 
> ...


Wow so the dog developed cancer anyway. That is very interesting. It almost sounded like your vet was closed to the possibilty that a raw diet is not all that bad if done right. Weight loss and normal skin because the environment changed? Maybe...I would think diet would be more of a reason.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Angelo Berios said:


> Feeding quality kibble and dehydrated THK-style foods for now. Planning on introducing to raw slowly. I am trying to learn as much as possible about raw first. Raw and prep is a process. This board and several related threads in here, are proving very helpful.
> QUOTE]
> 
> 
> Yeah I think raw can be good if its done right. I don't know if everyone is able to do it but I've heard alot of good things about it.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Many types of cancer are genetic and some breeds in particular are known for getting certain cancers. For example, osteosarcoma in Rottweilers and greyhounds, hemangiosarcoma in German shepherds and goldens, and mast cell tumors in boxers. Until we do actual studies with multiple litters and put a third of a litter of pups on a standard kibble diet (say Purina Dog Chow), a third on a more natural kibble (say Wellness), and a third on home prepared diet (cooked or raw), and then watch them over the course of a lifetime. Those are incredibly expensive studies to do, so it may not ever be done. Do I prefer a more natural approach? Absolutely. But until we do the studies, it's going to be speculation and n=1 anecdotal stuff.


Yeah I don't anyone that would be jumping up and down to do that study. I have heard of scientists studying calorie restrictive diets in labrotories for rodents and primates. But nothing like what you described for dogs.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Ben Thompson said:


> Angelo Berios said:
> 
> 
> > Feeding quality kibble and dehydrated THK-style foods for now. Planning on introducing to raw slowly. I am trying to learn as much as possible about raw first. Raw and prep is a process. This board and several related threads in here, are proving very helpful.
> ...


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

imo, first you learn about canine nutrition...THEN you learn about actual ingredients in various brands of kibble...then you learn about ingredients in "raw" 
...then you make your decisions

- should be a progressive learning process and you don't need a vet or a degree in nutrition to prepare yourself to make an informed intelligent decision, and i assume you also know a little about human nutrition also, and don't believe everything "you've heard" 

hint : step one is the most difficult to understand completely ... a system developed by marketing geniuses and cloaked in ambiguous terminology with a major dose of marketing added


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## Mara Jessup (Sep 7, 2010)

I lost my first dog (that I got as an adult) this past summer. Hemangiosarcoma. She was 12 and had been mostly raw fed for 6 years and minimally vaccinated. So it sure didn't prevent cancer. But I do think it contributed to her quality of life. I started raw to see if it helped with her allergy symptoms and it sure did - they virtually disappeared. She loved her raw meals (she was always so-so with kibble). She was also strong and active up until a few weeks before I lost her. She didn't even show her age until about a month after the cancer diagnosis - up until that point you'd have probably guessed that she was only 8-9.

For me the bottom line is that I'm not counting on diet to prevent cancer (thought it might and can't hurt, but who knows...). But I did see how it contributed to my dog's quality of life in other ways. 

I also would in no way, shape or form blame myself for causing my dog's cancer through what I fed. As long as you do what you feel is right for your dog (or what you can afford) then you have nothing to blame yourself for. It's human nature to want to find something to blame, something to fight so we can once again be in control because it truly sucks seeing a good friend that is dying and we can't do a thing about it. But right now with cancer as much as we stack the deck there are still no guarantees


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Mara Jessup said:


> I lost my first dog (that I got as an adult) this past summer. Hemangiosarcoma. She was 12 and had been mostly raw fed for 6 years and minimally vaccinated. *So it sure didn't prevent cancer. But I do think it contributed to her quality of life*. I started raw to see if it helped with her allergy symptoms and it sure did - they virtually disappeared. She loved her raw meals (she was always so-so with kibble). She was also strong and active up until a few weeks before I lost her. She didn't even show her age until about a month after the cancer diagnosis - up until that point you'd have probably guessed that she was only 8-9.
> 
> *For me the bottom line is that I'm not counting on diet to prevent cancer (thought it might and can't hurt, but who knows...). But I did see how it contributed to my dog's quality of life in other ways. *
> 
> I also would in no way, shape or form blame myself for causing my dog's cancer through what I fed. As long as you do what you feel is right for your dog (or what you can afford) then you have nothing to blame yourself for. It's human nature to want to find something to blame, something to fight so we can once again be in control because it truly sucks seeing a good friend that is dying and we can't do a thing about it. But* right now with cancer as much as we stack the deck there are still no guarantees*


I second that.
We also feed raw because our experiences throughout the years were a lot better with raw then with kibble. But there are no guarantees.


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## Angelo Berios (Aug 15, 2011)

Mara Jessup said:


> I lost my first dog (that I got as an adult) this past summer. Hemangiosarcoma. *She was 12 and had been mostly raw fed for 6 years and minimally vaccinated. So it sure didn't prevent cancer. * But I do think it contributed to her quality of life. I started raw to see if it helped with her allergy symptoms and it sure did - they virtually disappeared. She loved her raw meals (she was always so-so with kibble). She was also strong and active up until a few weeks before I lost her. She didn't even show her age until about a month after the cancer diagnosis - up until that point you'd have probably guessed that she was only 8-9.
> 
> For me the bottom line is that I'm not counting on diet to prevent cancer (thought it might and can't hurt, but who knows...). But I did see how it contributed to my dog's quality of life in other ways.
> 
> I also would in no way, shape or form blame myself for causing my dog's cancer through what I fed. As long as you do what you feel is right for your dog (or what you can afford) then you have nothing to blame yourself for. It's human nature to want to find something to blame, something to fight so we can once again be in control because it truly sucks seeing a good friend that is dying and we can't do a thing about it. But right now with cancer as much as we stack the deck* there are still no guarantees *


Agree with everything in the last paragraph, and certainly as Martine noted also, there are no guarantees. A small point though: If raw is the right diet for canines and it boost her quality of life, there is a good chance that it also extended it, via boosting somewhat her immune system and keeping some junk out of her. You don't know when the cancer started or how fast it progressed. I know of human cases on certain diets that have put cancer in remission. Nutrition has a lot to do with some cancers and it does not only contributes in prevention. It also works in the fight, although it is usually the exception yet rather than the rule. Nonetheless, some hope and also a direction to look towards... There are major needs for studies in this direction.


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## Angelo Berios (Aug 15, 2011)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Ben Thompson said:
> 
> 
> > I plan to write a book in about five years (want to finish a residency in nutrition first) with that approximate title: Raw Done Right. :wink: In doing a residency, especially if I want to add a masters or PhD to it, I will have to do some clinical research. So I will be interested in those types of research projects (i.e.-more "natural" diet versus a less natural diet).
> ...


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## Mara Jessup (Sep 7, 2010)

Angelo Berios said:


> Agree with everything in the last paragraph, and certainly as Martine noted also, there are no guarantees. A small point though: If raw is the right diet for canines and it boost her quality of life, there is a good chance that it also extended it, via boosting somewhat her immune system and keeping some junk out of her. You don't know when the cancer started or how fast it progressed. I know of human cases on certain diets that have put cancer in remission. Nutrition has a lot to do with some cancers and it does not only contributes in prevention. It also works in the fight, although it is usually the exception yet rather than the rule. Nonetheless, some hope and also a direction to look towards... There are major needs for studies in this direction.


True, and a cancer diet is lower carb, with higher fat and protein.

I know it extended her life for a couple weeks at least - she quit eating anything except raw. I tried switching to a cooked diet due to pathogen concerns and she practically quit eating (turning down a cooked chicken stew, etc). Put her back on raw and she happily ate again. 

And I also know that hemangio often claims it's victims soon after it's discovered (I've known several people who had less than two weeks and their dog was gone). I had my girl for 8 weeks after the ultrasound showed a large primary spleen tumor as well as liver involvement.


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