# Waiting to start protection training



## Walker Woods (Jun 12, 2013)

I was advised by the TD of my club to wait until my pup was around a year to start protection training and bite work in general. His logic was we didn't want my dog getting locked into prey. I recently had the opportunity to watch another club train and they were working young GSD pups in protection. We have a mal at our club that started protection training at 12 weeks and has had plenty of aggression. I understand that each breed, line, dog is different and so is the training depending on goals.I'd like to hear some of your guys thoughts on this. 

Those of you who focus primarily on PP and work GSDs do you wait to start protection?


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## kristin tresidder (Oct 23, 2008)

i used to wait to start protection until the dogs were ~ year old. my thought process *at the time* was that i wanted to see how the dogs were naturally inclined to bite/react to the decoy w/out any building up, or indication that the work was just a fun game. one dog, it worked fine - she now has her IPO3. with the other dog, i think i just wasted my time by waiting - he is a very strong, serious dog, and i wish he didn't take the decoy quite _so_ seriously - although i do IPO with him, so my goals are a bit different than the PP trainers you mentioned. in fact, i was just talking w/another trainer the other day about how i'm glad he's finally relaxing in the work - we have a partnership now & he seems to really enjoy the actual work, rather than wanting to bully/eat the helper with such intensity that he can't think through what he needs to do to get his bite. i think if i had started him as a puppy, he might have been more relaxed in the work as a young-adult dog, figured things out more quickly, and saved us all a lot of work. i also think the end result would not have changed at all - he'd still come fast and bite hard, because that's just who he is.

of course, i've only trained two dogs in bite work, so am not an expert!


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

kristin tresidder said:


> i used to wait to start protection until the dogs were ~ year old. my thought process *at the time* was that i wanted to see how the dogs were naturally inclined to bite/react to the decoy w/out any building up, or indication that the work was just a fun game. one dog, it worked fine - she now has her IPO3. with the other dog, i think i just wasted my time by waiting - he is a very strong, serious dog, and i wish he didn't take the decoy quite _so_ seriously - although i do IPO with him, so my goals are a bit different than the PP trainers you mentioned. in fact, i was just talking w/another trainer the other day about how i'm glad he's finally relaxing in the work - we have a partnership now & he seems to really enjoy the actual work, rather than wanting to bully/eat the helper with such intensity that he can't think through what he needs to do to get his bite. i think if i had started him as a puppy, he might have been more relaxed in the work as a young-adult dog, figured things out more quickly, and saved us all a lot of work. i also think the end result would not have changed at all - he'd still come fast and bite hard, because that's just who he is.
> 
> of course, i've only trained two dogs in bite work, so am not an expert!


I had a similar experience. Dogs started at 1.5 and 4 years. Don't think the dogs would be different had we started at 8weeks.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

look at training as a CONTINUAL slowly evolving process; not when to start this and when to start that

start with a foundation; building blocks
... yes, i know you already knew this 
example; don't look at it as "bitework" or "no bitework" yet

for me, i would start yesterday; by thinking what all is involved in building a foundation for bitework/protection

BTW, if the TD is basing his suggestion on YOUR dog and he knows his stuff, great.
if he's giving you a policy he applies to all dogs, i wouldn't listen so carefully

NEVER do nothing with your dog and never just watch it "mature" and get ready to train later
- there is always something you can do every day if you have a plan, and are working the plan

the primary goal for me always is control in all situations. MANY things you can do with a young dog that will not kill drive and build confidence and maintain control ... at the same time
- work it hard, keep it fun and use the KISS principle

my .02


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

rick smith said:


> look at training as a CONTINUAL slowly evolving process; not when to start this and when to start that
> 
> start with a foundation; building blocks
> ... yes, i know you already knew this
> ...


i wanted to start fairly early with my pup but circumstances made me start at about 9 months with the breeder who was fortunately in our area at the time for a few weeks.

I came in with a pup dancing around me like a lunatic and all the persons watching could say was "what a camel"!! 

The breeder / helper came Forward, the pup bit him full and the breeder / helper changed the young dog sleeve to adult dog sleeve.

I probably could have started earlier but wanted to wait until my breeder could work him.

I am convinced that a lot of ist is genetics.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

of course a lot is genetics. can't fill a ten gallon tank with 40 gallons of gas, and of course there are dogs who never start bitework til they are nearly mature

and of course there are days when you just don't want to do anything and just kick back and enjoy life with the dog u are training

but i have heard this advice many times on here and it just doesn't make sense, because everyone who defends it uses training examples that are wither stupid or unnecessary to do with a young dog. ESPECIALLY with a young dog who is soaking up behaviors at at probably the fastest rate it ever will in its lifetime

i can only assume this is from having an "either/or" "black/white" attitude, especially regarding bitework. 
- i'm saying bite work can be conditioned on a gradually increasing rate and that doesn't mean you have to start swing a pup around in circles when it is eight weeks old just because it will hang on to a rag
- and in the same breath i'm also saying you can never start too early training a dog no matter what its use will be later in life

ask this same question to a high level trainer like Michael Ellis and i'll be willing to bet he would say there are LOTS of foundations directly related to bitework you can do with a very young pup...or maybe i am wrong


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I think it all depends on the progression that each trainer might try to use as a baseline, what their "system" is.

some people like to play games with puppies, teaching them stuff young and giving them exposure, with a helper, others dont introduce dogs to the helpers until they are in more of an adolescent stage, and the helper is introduced in a more formal and serious way.

Those that dont introduce younger pups and dogs to helpers, sometimes will have the handlers doing their own foundation work, with more toy-like equipment, which is fine if the handlers know what they are doing.

It all depends the handlers, the trainers, the system, and of course the dog.

If you club doesnt want to work with the pup in protection and you want to, then find another one, or trust the club you are with.

can always work on tracking, OB, drive building, outing, exercises etc. until that time comes.

if you are knowledgeable enough to do stuff yourself without screwing up the dog, or the system your club uses for the dogs, then go for it...but find out what they say you should be doing first, and how to do it.

I think many dogs benefit greatly from early work, and many others it doesnt help much, and even others it may hurt the overall goals, depending.


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## Walker Woods (Jun 12, 2013)

Thanks for the input everyone. 

Rick you make a lot of sense and thanks. I did start doing Michael Ellis type tug stuff at a younger age I just didn't really look at it as protection or bite work. I was just building drive for the tug, but I did always reward a full mouth.


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

In our system we do not start the dog on a helper until after 12 months as well. However all of the foundation bite work us done in prey with a tug from 8 weeks on. This includes barking, biting, pulling, outing, holding and carrying. 

I did not see how long the OP has been involved in dogsport but I will say that many people, even with a fair amount of experience cannot tell the difference between true aggression and frustrated prey drive. 

I am a firm believer in waiting. This is after seeing the lack of true power and aggression in many of the dogs I see who start earlier. I also see it in lack of power and conviction in guarding exercises, leaping in the air in bark and holds, taking the sleeve rather than striking, etc.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Steve Burger said:


> In our system we do not start the dog on a helper until after 12 months as well. However all of the foundation bite work us done in prey with a tug from 8 weeks on. This includes barking, biting, pulling, outing, holding and carrying.
> 
> I did not see how long the OP has been involved in dogsport but I will say that many people, even with a fair amount of experience cannot tell the difference between true aggression and frustrated prey drive.
> 
> I am a firm believer in waiting. This is after seeing the lack of true power and aggression in many of the dogs I see who start earlier. I also see it in lack of power and conviction in guarding exercises, leaping in the air in bark and holds, taking the sleeve rather than striking, etc.


 I fully agree.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Steve Burger said:


> In our system we do not start the dog on a helper until after 12 months as well. However all of the foundation bite work us done in prey with a tug from 8 weeks on. This includes barking, biting, pulling, outing, holding and carrying.
> 
> I did not see how long the OP has been involved in dogsport but I will say that many people, even with a fair amount of experience cannot tell the difference between true aggression and frustrated prey drive.
> 
> I am a firm believer in waiting. This is after seeing the lack of true power and aggression in many of the dogs I see who start earlier. I also see it in lack of power and conviction in guarding exercises, leaping in the air in bark and holds, taking the sleeve rather than striking, etc.


I fully agree.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I fully agree.


You should have edited one of the double posts to say "I can't disagree more" lol.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Steve Burger said:


> In our system we do not start the dog on a helper until after 12 months as well. However all of the foundation bite work us done in prey with a tug from 8 weeks on. This includes barking, biting, pulling, outing, holding and carrying.
> 
> I did not see how long the OP has been involved in dogsport but I will say that many people, even with a fair amount of experience cannot tell the difference between true aggression and frustrated prey drive.
> 
> I am a firm believer in waiting. This is after seeing the lack of true power and aggression in many of the dogs I see who start earlier. I also see it in lack of power and conviction in guarding exercises, leaping in the air in bark and holds, taking the sleeve rather than striking, etc.


Isn't there a specific name for this? someone once told me something about the "XXXX method" and described it this way.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

as usual, responders are morphing the original thread 
"to start protection training and bite work in general."
NOTHING said about when to bring on the helper 

of course a lot depends on the dog, but based on the words as WRITTEN, i still say : start yesterday using a progressive system you have planned in advance and taylor it to the dog in front of you 

picking some arbitrary age seems weird to me, so please explain why 12 months and not 11 //lol//


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

are we talking about a purely personal protection dog? Or an organized sport dog?


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

No one on this forum should trump your TD unless you are in the market for a new TD.

Make him or her explain the reasoning. There are too many terms that are not similar in different trainers and styles. All we can do is guess at what your TD is REALLY saying. To be very honest, what you could be hearing from your TD is "I don't want to work with you" "It's me, not you". Otherwise, he or she could be saying, this is what you can do to encourage biting behavior, barking behavior, etc, in your puppy, which is where he is at in bitework right now.

That being said, I begin dogs as young as they'll bite. Although someone may not call it protection, any exercise, part of an exercise, or biting or barking behavior that is taught to a young dog that carries over and is useful as an adult, is protection work. Some people call it drive building or any number of terms. It doesn't mean a puppy can handle a courage test, stick hits, rock jug, water in the nose, etc at 12 weeks. That is my opinion. 






Walker Woods said:


> I was advised by the TD of my club to wait until my pup was around a year to start protection training and bite work in general. His logic was we didn't want my dog getting locked into prey. I recently had the opportunity to watch another club train and they were working young GSD pups in protection. We have a mal at our club that started protection training at 12 weeks and has had plenty of aggression. I understand that each breed, line, dog is different and so is the training depending on goals.I'd like to hear some of your guys thoughts on this.
> 
> Those of you who focus primarily on PP and work GSDs do you wait to start protection?


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

I agree with Dave .... your TD is there in front of you and the dog ,,, and I assume has had some time to evaluate your dog. Anything said on a forum about a dog that nobody has seen is speculation at best. Hell some of the gurus on the internet can tell you all about a dog from a freakin picture LOL .. but I too start em right away and I want to see it right away or times a wastin!


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

No I start at 10 weeks if I had a trainer that told me I had to wait to 12 weeks I would still work with them. A year... I would move on.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

The TD's I have been around are usually fine for evaluating and training on a field but they might not care that much about how the dog acts off the field. 

Training at a club is a very small part of the total package, imo, and advice for working with the dog when it's not at the club may be just as important for many owners.

Not trying to diminish the importance of receiving and listening to correct guidance at a club; just saying it's only part of the dog/handler overall program and I have worked with owners who had NO problems at their club but had a "different" dog to deal with the other 90% of their time with it.
- just my limited experience with SchH based clubs, and probably outdated compare to modern methods for raising/training working breeds


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

being TD in a lot of these sport clubs means your the only one who shows up regular and you do good playing politics. Reading and actually understanding how to work with a dog is secondary. But as sure as I say that to someone. They will actually have a good knowledgeable TD LOL ... there are a couple TD's in clubs near me I wouldn't let house train a freaking poodle much less advise me on what to do with an idiot ass biting dog. Last time I showed up for an invite I left about 20 minutes into it ... it was sad to see what was going on. With that said ,,, if the dog isnt in front me ,,, how the hell do I know!


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

If you don't think there is any difference between starting a dog off as a pup and starting later, wouldn't logic dictate that starting later is better simply because it's less work and fewer chances of the dog getting injured or other training mishaps?


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## Rigel Lancero (Aug 22, 2007)

Work the pup according to age and according to its mental and physical capabilities at that moment.


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