# Results of positive IPO training



## Christopher Smith

Over the last few years there have been more than a few discussions here with people claiming that they were going to train their IPO dogs using noncompulsive methods. Where are the results? Are you still using the same methods?


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## Matt Vandart

I know of a few that have succeeded, there is a discussion about it on facebook.


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## Christopher Smith

Who? Are they on this forum? I really don't care if they were successful or not. That's not my question. Success is measured by each individuals goals. I want to hear what the RESULTS are.


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## David Winners

Shade Whitesel, who is a member, and Mario Verslype come to mind. 


David Winners


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## Christopher Smith

David Winners said:


> Shade Whitesel, who is a member, and Mario Verslype come to mind.
> 
> 
> David Winners


Where are the RESULTS.

Mario uses compulsion. We have been through that BS here already.


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## Matt Vandart

Shade Whitsel was one of them Corinne Wrend is another. It was on facebook Chris.


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## Christopher Smith

Matt Vandart said:


> Shade Whitsel was one of them Corinne Wrend is another. It was on facebook Chris.


Not names. RESULTS! Scores or videos would be fine


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## Christopher Jones

The last time I remember this topic people were mentioning a lady who apparently did it but the videos of her training protection showed her using corrections, which blew her credibility out the window. And as Chris said, Mario uses compulsion as does EVERY high level competitor. Even if they tell you they are using only positive. 
People try to train their dogs without a correction and they wonder why this happens
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqHtxYLVIK4


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## Tiago Fontes

Christopher Smith said:


> Mario uses compulsion. We have been through that BS here already.


Yes he does... One thing is a seminar, the other is what you do behind close doors when precision and discipline are required...


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## Tiago Fontes

Christopher Jones said:


> The last time I remember this topic people were mentioning a lady who apparently did it but the videos of her training protection showed her using corrections, which blew her credibility out the window. And as Chris said, Mario uses compulsion as does EVERY high level competitor. Even if they tell you they are using only positive.
> People try to train their dogs without a correction and they wonder why this happens
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqHtxYLVIK4



Bingo!


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## Christopher Smith

Mario has been open about his training. It's other people that made crazy claims.


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## Haz Othman

Shade went to Nationals with her dog and won. But if I recall correctly it was IPO 1-2 against a small field. I dont think she was competitive at the 3 at that level.
However I could be wrong.


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## Christopher Smith

Haz Othman said:


> Shade went to Nationals with her dog and won. But if I recall correctly it was IPO 1-2 against a small field. I dont think she was competitive at the 3 at that level.
> However I could be wrong.


She did really well and had a high placement at a national with the dog that we saw saw her correct on video that Christopher referred to above. Do you have RESULTS from a dog that she trained without correction?


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## Haz Othman

Christopher Smith said:


> She did really well and had a high placement at a national with the dog that we saw saw her correct on video that Christopher referred to above. Do you have RESULTS from a dog that she trained without correction?


 
No Chris I personally do not train like that nor believe its viable. I was just mentioning the only trainer I know of to title a dog that claims to train without corrections.

Was this a leash correction or a voice correction we are talking about?


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## Brian McQuain

Christopher Jones said:


> The last time I remember this topic people were mentioning a lady who apparently did it but the videos of her training protection showed her using corrections, which blew her credibility out the window. And as Chris said, Mario uses compulsion as does EVERY high level competitor. Even if they tell you they are using only positive.
> People try to train their dogs without a correction and they wonder why this happens
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqHtxYLVIK4




That was great. I bet the dog at 16:30 puckered up that dude


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## Brian Anderson

that videos funny ...


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## Bob Scott

The video had a lot of poor performances but was that because of lousy training or the method?
I saw nothing about the method used with any of those dogs.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Bob Scott said:


> The video had a lot of poor performances but was that because of lousy training or the method?
> I saw nothing about the method used with any of those dogs.


Yet, without establishing the method its used to predict what performance the method will produce. Yet if they ever said no to the dog, its correction based training ir if you saud no fir bolting out the back door that will bleed over to the dog's frame of mind in competition heeling. If the handler lapsed into an episode of leash tensuon/restraint, then the pwrformance outcome is correction based
Now, its how many points did they get. For something perceived as so impossible or invalid, it keeps getting a lot of attention--mostly to ridicule and protest. Hasn't this already been beat to death.


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## Christopher Smith

Obviously not as you had someting to say. Anyway the reason I made the thread is to find RESULTS and let those RESULTS speak to validity.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

How can the results speak to the valudity when the first line of attack is to say results aren't based on positive methods. Furthermore, maybe how they relate to the dog is more important than the score
But for sure its not worth them coming here for a repeat of the past discussions.


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## Christopher Jones

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> How can the results speak to the valudity when the first line of attack is to say results aren't based on positive methods. Furthermore, maybe how they relate to the dog is more important than the score
> But for sure its not worth them coming here for a repeat of the past discussions.


I think the problem for them is they make grandios claims about how effective it is and how its terrible to correct your dog. They come across as mightier than thou, but yet they dont have the sucess they claim to be able to have.


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## Thomas Barriano

Christopher Smith said:


> She did really well and had a high placement at a national with the dog that we saw saw her correct on video that Christopher referred to above. Do you have RESULTS from a dog that she trained without correction?


Shade and Reiki won the 2009 DVG (Aurora Colorado) IPO II Championship with a score of 96 94 95 285 from a field of 5 with one pull. Many of the dogs in the Shellshots video were from that trial.


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## Christopher Smith

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> How can the results speak to the valudity when the first line of attack is to say results aren't based on positive methods. Furthermore, maybe how they relate to the dog is more important than the score
> But for sure its not worth them coming here for a repeat of the past discussions.


They don't have to come here or discuss anything. I already heard their rational and projections of future accomplishments. Now the future is here and I want to know the RESULTS. 

You see, there is a lot yak-yak on this forum and very little follow up on that yaking. People show videos of puppies but rarely do I see those dog as adults. People say they are training in some hot new "method" yet years later they never show us the finished dog. So I want to see RESULTS. A simple: Jane Doe got a 299 at OG Ass Scratchers on 4/1/14. Or Joe Doe has not titled the dog yet but here is some promising video, https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&ei=5xy0U-O1KdCMqgbWuoGIBg&url=http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DHaYV2tQi8yk&cd=10&ved=0CDcQtwIwCQ&usg=AFQjCNFOTUpT7srM1UA6UbJiMDrsWSCpDg&sig2=DFhg8CflrAwA751IyM8LOw

Now if you can't do that it's fine. But please stop trying to derail my thread into something that it's not.


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## Christopher Smith

Christopher Jones said:


> I think the problem for them is they make grandios claims about how effective it is and how its terrible to correct your dog. They come across as mightier than thou, but yet they dont have the sucess they claim to be able to have.


I guess that some people don't have a problem with that. Maybe we are the crazy ones Christopher?


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## Catherine Gervin

Christopher Jones said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqHtxYLVIK4


this was hilarious!!! my daughter and i sat and watched this and we were cracking up!!! it was most fortunate that they used oompah music rather than the cursing the handlers were most likely muttering obliquely under their breaths.


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## Brian Anderson

Christopher Smith said:


> I guess that some people don't have a problem with that. Maybe we are the crazy ones Christopher?


ignorance runs rampant in the working dog neighborhood brother Christopher you know that LOL ... hell we are half whacked anyway some are just totally off the proverbial chain with their idiocy


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## Christopher Smith

Brian, the way I see it the most logical way of evaluating a training method or trainer is by looking the RESULTS. I don't understand getting bent out of shape about that. 

Maybe some people are feeling guilty because they wrote a check that their RESULTS can't cash?


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## Brian Anderson

Christopher Smith said:


> Brian, the way I see it the most logical way of evaluating a training method or trainer is by looking the RESULTS. I don't understand getting bent out of shape about that.
> 
> Maybe some people are feeling guilty because they wrote a check that their RESULTS can't cash?


you would be correctomundo too my brother! Theres a wad of em out there making claims that they cant back up. But hey! Anything PC sells now ... so ya gotta sprinkle it all over whatever you are offering. I guess Im a cynic in my older age .. I dont ever buy that crap ... OR they can treat me like Im from Missouri and show me!!


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## Christopher Smith

Got me scared to ask about the RESULTS of NePoPo trainers!:mrgreen:


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## Christian Rio

Not to change the topic but what are the best training methods for IPO that have consistent results? Chris you got a score of 294 on your dog, so you must be doing something right.


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## Brian Anderson

Christopher Smith said:


> Got me scared to ask about the RESULTS of NePoPo trainers!:mrgreen:


HAHAHAHA!! [-o<


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## Ben Thompson

I don't know...if the trainee is a idiot with no talent the best trainer with the best training method won't help much. Countless things to factor in as to why people place poorly.


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## Christopher Smith

Christian Rio said:


> Not to change the topic but what are the best training methods for IPO that have consistent results? Chris you got a score of 294 on your dog, so you must be doing something right.


The best method IMO is one that gets RESULTS with that particular dog and handler team. In my case, with my dog, that has been an apporach of both both compulsive and positive stuff. I'm not married to a certain method or system. 

But I'm very aware that someone could do exactly what I'm doing and get very different results.


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## Lisa Radcliffe

Christopher Smith said:


> Brian, the way I see it the most logical way of evaluating a training method or trainer is by looking the RESULTS. I don't understand getting bent out of shape about that.
> 
> Maybe some people are feeling guilty because they wrote a check that their RESULTS can't cash?


I am not sure if you are thinking of Shade? she is the only person I know who is striving to train her young male with all positive training method. I have trained with her and she is a very good trainer so I wish her luck! Good training in our area is hard to come by so it can take longer to trial. For the record I am not a all positive trainer and I don't believe it can be done with the kind of dogs I like, but if anyone could pull it off it would be Shade. You may still see the results you are interested in-


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## Christopher Jones

Christopher Smith said:


> I guess that some people don't have a problem with that. Maybe we are the crazy ones Christopher?


If someone said "Hey i want to try and see if i can get my dog to have success in IPO without using any corrections, because I think it might be possible" I think there would be alot of encouragement for them, even if you didnt think it possible yourself. But the attitude they seem to give is "you can do it, there are people who have already done it, and the only reason you are still training the way you are is because you dont know any better and your knowedge is somehow lacking"


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## Jennifer Andress

Disclaimer 1: I don't do IPO and have extremely limited experience even watching other people train.

Disclaimer 2: everything I say on this topic is heavily influenced by the fact that I would really_ like_ to do IPO in a few years (when I have a dog that could, I dunno, maybe possibly get a BH without imploding in the first 30 seconds) and I don't want people yelling at me and throwing tomatoes when I try, because I am a big super-sensitive wimp and that would make me very sad.

So, that said:

I know a few people who are trying to do this, but I don't know if they're trialing yet, and if they _are_ trialing, I don't know what their results have been. Most of the ones I know of are new to IPO (in all cases they're working with their first IPO dogs, except for one person who got a BH on an American showline GSD previously) and don't have a ton of support available to them, so I would be pretty surprised if they pull amazing results straight out of the gate.

Anyway, it's a really small sample size and like I said, I don't even know if anyone in this group is trialing yet. I've only really been paying attention for a year or so, and even in that short time, I have seen a lot of people get discouraged and drop out, usually because they can't find a local club that's willing to even let them play. If you're in an area that only has one club within reasonable driving distance, and that club doesn't want you there, then welp, that's that. IPO isn't really something you can train alone at home with no guidance.

I do think it's a straw man to say that people trying to do IPO force-free (I won't say "purely positive" because I don't know anyone trying to do it with _no_ corrections, just without prong/electric) are out there bragging about how easy it is to do the sport and how superior their methods are, though. Everyone I know who is actually out there trying to do it has a lot of respect for how challenging the sport is and how difficult it is, both practically and psychologically, to try a different approach when even the attempt is met with so much hostility in some quarters.

All the people I know of who are actually doing it, other than the names already mentioned in this thread, are newbies. They aren't boasting about how easy it's going to be. They are all chastened by how _hard_ it is. Nobody is out there talking about how handlers who use some +P are just big ol' mean meanies; instead, they're exchanging names of the best trainers that will welcome them and allow them to learn in their own way.

Sure, there are clueless people who talk about how all punishment is bad always and nobody ever needs it for anything and it serves no purpose besides to be mean. You know who they are? People who don't actually train dogs.

So, because this has been my experience and these are the people that I know, I think it's more than a little counterproductive to harsh on newbies because they're trying to do something different. These people are interested in the sport, they're going out there and trying, why not welcome them and work with them? Why not use the opportunity to create a good impression of the club?

If they fail then they fail. Who cares? People fail for all kinds of reasons. They fail because they don't have the right dog or life gets in the way or club politics drive them off or they're just sucky trainers regardless of methodology. Their failure doesn't reflect on you. Nobody takes that personally.

But when somebody gets driven away because they tried to do IPO with a weak dog, everybody agrees that the club is in the wrong, not the newbie who tried to get involved and didn't quite know what they were doing. And when somebody gets driven away because they wanted to try training without an e-collar, that's different because... why?

I mean, would it be different if the person couldn't use a prong because they had a physical disability? Would you welcome and try to work with that person? Be creative in trying to find alternative solutions?

Again, if it doesn't work then it doesn't work. Whoopie. But who's it hurting if they try? Worst case they go away feeling like "hey, at least this club was nice and welcoming and tried to work with me, and they weren't big ol' mean meanies like I thought they'd be."

This isn't a big sport, and it's a sport that is easily misunderstood by outsiders. Personally, because I like IPO and I would like to see it thrive in the U.S., I just want to encourage it to be welcoming to as many people as possible. Some of those people will become serious. Some of them won't. I think that all of them should at least leave with a good impression of the club and the sport, though.


...so that's my big long post about that. Quite candidly, I am hesitating about clicking "submit" on this because I really have no interest in getting dragged into an argument on this topic, especially if it's just going to be the same old argument that it always is.

but whatever, I wrote it and I check this board like once a month anyhow, what's the loss


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## Joby Becker

Jennifer Andress said:


> But when somebody gets driven away because they tried to do IPO with a weak dog, *everybody agrees that the club is in the wrong*...


NOT TRUE AT ALL..

some people dont like wasting the helper's, club members' or training director's time on unsuitable dogs...

Actually. I think most people would agree with a club making a decision to decline working with a WEAK dog.. if the goals are serious that is...


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## Jennifer Andress

Joby Becker said:


> I think most people would agree with a club making a decision to decline working with a WEAK dog.. if the goals are serious that is...


Would you agree with chasing away the _handler,_ though? Because that's what I wrote.

I understand why clubs might decline to work with a weak _dog_. If the dog was as fearful as my Pongu -- to the point where you couldn't even work on obedience or tracking because he is just a complete banana nut sundae of crazy -- then sure, by all means, send that dog home. It would probably be outright inhumane to try to force that kind of dog into the sport.

But telling the _handler_ to get lost?

I mean, I don't know, maybe that is an accepted norm. I can only go by what other people tell me.

But if that actually is the culture of the sport, then welp, that sucks.


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## Christopher Smith

I do think it's a straw man to say that people trying to do IPO force-free (I won't say "purely positive" because I don't know anyone trying to do it with no corrections, just without prong/electric"

So using force is OK but it's the prong and electric that are the problem? It sounds to me that your group is doing what everyone that's good is doing; using minimal force to get the job done.

There's nothing special about that and definitely not what this thread is about.

BTW, getting an IPO title is not hard. It only takes time, dedication and a decent dog. But what makes things much easier is NOT trying to reinvent the training. And I'll let you.in on another secret. ...corrections in IPO are important for more than punishment. 

Good luck!


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## Jennifer Andress

Christopher Smith said:


> So using force is OK but it's the prong and electric that are the problem? It sounds to me that your group is doing what everyone that's good is doing; using minimal force to get the job done.


No, the idea is to do it with no force.

I mean, everybody draws the line in a different place, but generally I think the definition for this loosely defined group are that verbal corrections are okay, and body blocking the dog is okay, and removing the dog from the field is okay, but using physical force (choke, electric, prong, swatting the dog, etc.) to enforce compliance is something to be avoided altogether, if possible.

Now, would that work for me and my Imaginary Future Dog in IPO? I don't have any idea! I would like to try it and find out, and maybe I will fail and it will be a hilarious disaster and everybody will get to invoke my name on the litany of failures forever, but right now, today, I have no freaking clue.

And it's going to be years (probably, unless I finally succeed in my brilliant plots to get rid of Crookytail by wrapping him in a bacon sweater and sending him out to say hi to bears) before I get to try having a clue, so who knows how it'll ultimately pan out.


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## Christopher Smith

I never tell someone to get lost if they are seriously dedicated and have a dog suitable for their goals. Maybe you should vist other clubs and form a first hand opinion.


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## Joby Becker

Jennifer Andress said:


> Would you agree with chasing away the _handler,_ though? Because that's what I wrote.
> 
> I understand why clubs might decline to work with a weak _dog_. If the dog was as fearful as my Pongu -- to the point where you couldn't even work on obedience or tracking because he is just a complete banana nut sundae of crazy -- then sure, by all means, send that dog home. It would probably be outright inhumane to try to force that kind of dog into the sport.
> 
> But telling the _handler_ to get lost?
> 
> I mean, I don't know, maybe that is an accepted norm. I can only go by what other people tell me.
> 
> But if that actually is the culture of the sport, then welp, that sucks.


If the newbie handler only had the one dog, and was told that they dont really want to work with that dog, that in itself is "sort of" driving the handler away, if their interest was working their own personal dog.

I know a couple handlers that "felt" they were driven away or cast out, because the TD made the decision to cut their dog from the club. That was not the case though, the dog was cut, and since it was their only dog, they felt they were cut.... The funny thing was they declined to go back to that club, once they did get a suitable dog, because they were butthurt about the things that took place with their previous dog...it was purely emotional reaction on their part, unfounded when looked at logically.

another point is why SHOULD a club that uses corrections and has a specific program that works for them, which you seem to think they should.

I can see several problems arising from making a decision to let a handler into certain clubs that want to do things in a way that is very different than what the club is doing, and has a vastly different philosophy than the TD, Decoy, or other members... especially if the club is a driven club with people that are seriously trying to compete, and not just a weekend activity...

Plus, I am guessing it would take a lot more time to accomplish certain things without corrections (or force free as you put it) especially in the protection work...which the time spent is usually split up fairly evenly between dogs, for the most part.

IF I was a club helper I would not really want to put in the extra work and time to entertain someone that wants to try to do something just because, that is different than what everyone else is doing, if it was going to take many more reps to see results. disclaimer: I am not a club helper....


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## Joby Becker

Correction


joby becker said:


> if the newbie handler only had the one dog, and was told that they dont really want to work with that dog, that in itself is "sort of" driving the handler away, if their interest was working their own personal dog.
> 
> I know a couple handlers that "felt" they were driven away or cast out, because the td made the decision to cut their dog from the club. That was not the case though, the dog was cut, and since it was their only dog, they felt they were cut.... The funny thing was they declined to go back to that club, once they did get a suitable dog, because they were butthurt about the things that took place with their previous dog...it was purely emotional reaction on their part, unfounded when looked at logically.
> 
> Another point is why should a club that uses corrections and has a specific program that works for them, *let someone in that wants to try something that is very different from what they are doing*, which you seem to think they should.
> 
> I can see several problems arising from making a decision to let a handler into certain clubs that want to do things in a way that is very different than what the club is doing, and has a vastly different philosophy than the td, decoy, or other members... Especially if the club is a driven club with people that are seriously trying to compete, and not just a weekend activity...
> 
> Plus, i am guessing it would take a lot more time to accomplish certain things without corrections (or force free as you put it) especially in the protection work...which the time spent is usually split up fairly evenly between dogs, for the most part.
> 
> If i was a club helper i would not really want to put in the extra work and time to entertain someone that wants to try to do something just because, that is different than what everyone else is doing, if it was going to take many more reps to see results. Disclaimer: I am not a club helper....


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## brad robert

Christopher Smith said:


> Got me scared to ask about the RESULTS of NePoPo trainers!:mrgreen:


This got me thinking I mean you see all sorts of marvellous videos of young dogs doing nice work and all these "newer" type methods or boxes etc and nepopo but not very many older dogs being touted as nepopo trained now I know jurgen zank and tobias oleynik are both nepopo trainers who have success so who else?


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## Jennifer Andress

Joby Becker said:


> another point is why SHOULD a club that uses corrections and has a specific program that works for them, which you seem to think they should.
> 
> I can see several problems arising from making a decision to let a handler into certain clubs that want to do things in a way that is very different than what the club is doing, and has a vastly different philosophy than the TD, Decoy, or other members... especially if the club is a driven club with people that are seriously trying to compete, and not just a weekend activity...
> 
> Plus, I am guessing it would take a lot more time to accomplish certain things without corrections (or force free as you put it) especially in the protection work...which the time spent is usually split up fairly evenly between dogs, for the most part.
> 
> IF I was a club helper I would not really want to put in the extra work and time to entertain someone that wants to try to do something just because, that is different than what everyone else is doing, if it was going to take many more reps to see results. disclaimer: I am not a club helper....


I guess it depends whether they're full up or have space to let people tool around a little.

If they've got a full roster and helper time is scarce and adding someone new would compromise everyone else's ability to pursue their goals seriously, then yep, I think your argument is very reasonable. I know that there are clubs out there with waiting lists to get in, and for them, it wouldn't make a whole lot of sense to take a flyer in someone who might not pan out for them.

If there's room for extra members and the helper is willing to be a little bit indulgent and the club wants to reach out to new people, then maybe it's worth making the effort to be a little more inclusive.

Every club's situation is different, and every new person is different too. I can definitely see an over-cocky newb with no prior experience getting pushed out if he showed up on Day One trying to tell everybody else how to do their jobs and totally wasting the instructor's time. It's just too much work to even deal with somebody like that in _any_ sport.

Conversely, if somebody showed up with no prior experience in IPO but a proven track record in other sports, and a willingness to learn and shut up and listen to why people were doing what they were doing, then I'd hope maybe there would be a club who would be willing to be a little more flexible in turn.

Ultimately I guess the best that I hope for is that people just try to be patient and give each other the benefit of the doubt.


(As an aside, I don't know whether it would in fact take longer to do things force-free. My _guess_ is that it depends on the handler's skill and it depends on the dog more than it depends on the methods. I always thought that it would take longer to teach things in competition obedience if you didn't use forcible corrections, because that's what everybody had always told me, and it turns out that it's not true as to comp OB. The controlling variable is the handler's skill and dedication to practicing, and then the dog's innate qualities, not the methods.

But that's obedience, not IPO. As to IPO I don't know. Never done it! That's the thing -- if you've never actually tested it, how can you know? Somebody has to be willing to experiment and risk failure to try something new. Somebody experimented to get every advance that's ever happened.)


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## Faisal Khan

Christopher Smith said:


> Over the last few years there have been more than a few discussions here with people claiming that they were going to train their IPO dogs using noncompulsive methods. Where are the results? Are you still using the same methods?


You mean just clicker n cookies or electric/prong used in a way that the dog thinks it is a cookie? Need better definition regarding who you are targeting.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Actually Jennifer, I think you hit upon several key points. I don't remember any laundry list of sport people who were claiming positive only IPO, here. I know of a couple who have done it and are striving in that direction. I think you have to consider the reception when you arrive at said club and say 1). Decoy does not get to correct my dog; 2) No prong, electric or other physical corrections. Some will send you packing. Others will say sure and then try to pursuade you otherwise. Then there is, how dare a newbie tell me what to do. There are people out there who are training and are developing and training IPO exercises without prong, electric or physical corrections. Some have already trialed and titled. I can think of a couple of fogs with scores in the 280s and one at a regional. Its evolving. Actually, my latest seminar adventure is to bring in someone thats doing it. I don't care about his scores. I care about how he breaks the exercises down to marker train and adds the next layer. The scores aren't just a reflection of the method. As you test it on the trial field there will be some research and development days that tell you how the dog processes info and generalizes it to the trial environment., then back to the training board. Great to here others are interested in it. Its a tough room. IPO people are about as accepting as herding. . You have to just stick to your guns and persevere.

T


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## Jennifer Andress

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> There are people out there who are training and are developing and training IPO exercises without prong, electric or physical corrections


And that, I think, is the key actual benefit to a club that's willing to let these people noodle around (besides the more generic "woohoo! more people getting involved in IPO! more support for the sport!" aspect).

You _do_ develop new methods and ideas when you choose to take a different approach. Some of them work, some of them fail. Some are improvements on old methods and some are just kind of clumsier inferior versions (at least until they can be practiced and refined into more sophisticated forms).

But the experimentation and evolution is happening really fast in competition obedience right now, and it's spreading beyond the core cluster of people innovating these approaches to other competitors who don't actually care about being force-free but _do_ care about finding effective solutions to problems that they're having.

In some ways I think that the better parts of the force-free training groups are like NASA labs: yeah okay a lot of what they do may not have immediate practical application for everybody, and occasionally they blow themselves up in spectacular fashion, but letting them experiment on their goofy space projects does sometimes trickle down into really cool stuff for everyone.


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## brad robert

Faisal Khan said:


> You mean just clicker n cookies or electric/prong used in a way that the dog thinks it is a cookie? Need better definition regarding who you are targeting.


Still yet too see a dog that thinks a remote correction is a cookie.Not saying it cant happen but would like to see it


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## Christopher Jones

brad robert said:


> Still yet too see a dog that thinks a remote correction is a cookie.Not saying it cant happen but would like to see it


Low stim give cookie, low stim give cookie, low stim give cookie. Repeat 200 times then give a low stim and watch him drool.


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## Christopher Smith

What are the names of these dogs getting 280's.


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## Christopher Jones

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Actually Jennifer, I think you hit upon several key points. I don't remember any laundry list of sport people who were claiming positive only IPO, here. I know of a couple who have done it and are striving in that direction. I think you have to consider the reception when you arrive at said club and say 1). Decoy does not get to correct my dog; 2) No prong, electric or other physical corrections. Some will send you packing. Others will say sure and then try to pursuade you otherwise. Then there is, how dare a newbie tell me what to do. There are people out there who are training and are developing and training IPO exercises without prong, electric or physical corrections. Some have already trialed and titled. I can think of a couple of fogs with scores in the 280s and one at a regional. Its evolving. Actually, my latest seminar adventure is to bring in someone thats doing it. I don't care about his scores. I care about how he breaks the exercises down to marker train and adds the next layer. The scores aren't just a reflection of the method. As you test it on the trial field there will be some research and development days that tell you how the dog processes info and generalizes it to the trial environment., then back to the training board. Great to here others are interested in it. Its a tough room. IPO people are about as accepting as herding. . You have to just stick to your guns and persevere.
> 
> T


No decoy corrects my dog unless I tell him to. I will go onto the field with the collars of my choice, be it prong, flat, en collar etc. I will train the way I want to. Most people are the same. Where things evolve is if you don't make progression at some point the TD is gonna say either you change your method and make some progression or stop wasting then club and decoys time.


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## Christopher Smith

It tickles me that you guys think that training without corrections is something new and never tried before. Maybe this is the arrogance that Christopher was writing about?


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## Dave Colborn

Nice post. Keep your own training experiences positive. Keep the dream alive of force free until you make it a reality for yourself or find out you cant. Dreams are sometimes what get you to work or training. So do dedication, so do conflict. If force free by your definition doesnt work for you, change as you see fit as you learn, don't stick to something just "because". Keep the idea alive that force free may not always be best for the dog compared to the alternative. Just keep that seed alive so you don't sink if the ship goes down. No matter how good you get at something, stay humble and grounded. Thank the people who help you, every day. Good luck.



Jennifer Andress said:


> Disclaimer 1: I don't do IPO and have extremely limited experience even watching other people train.
> 
> Disclaimer 2: everything I say on this topic is heavily influenced by the fact that I would really_ like_ to do IPO in a few years (when I have a dog that could, I dunno, maybe possibly get a BH without imploding in the first 30 seconds) and I don't want people yelling at me and throwing tomatoes when I try, because I am a big super-sensitive wimp and that would make me very sad.
> 
> So, that said:
> 
> I know a few people who are trying to do this, but I don't know if they're trialing yet, and if they _are_ trialing, I don't know what their results have been. Most of the ones I know of are new to IPO (in all cases they're working with their first IPO dogs, except for one person who got a BH on an American showline GSD previously) and don't have a ton of support available to them, so I would be pretty surprised if they pull amazing results straight out of the gate.
> 
> Anyway, it's a really small sample size and like I said, I don't even know if anyone in this group is trialing yet. I've only really been paying attention for a year or so, and even in that short time, I have seen a lot of people get discouraged and drop out, usually because they can't find a local club that's willing to even let them play. If you're in an area that only has one club within reasonable driving distance, and that club doesn't want you there, then welp, that's that. IPO isn't really something you can train alone at home with no guidance.
> 
> I do think it's a straw man to say that people trying to do IPO force-free (I won't say "purely positive" because I don't know anyone trying to do it with _no_ corrections, just without prong/electric) are out there bragging about how easy it is to do the sport and how superior their methods are, though. Everyone I know who is actually out there trying to do it has a lot of respect for how challenging the sport is and how difficult it is, both practically and psychologically, to try a different approach when even the attempt is met with so much hostility in some quarters.
> 
> All the people I know of who are actually doing it, other than the names already mentioned in this thread, are newbies. They aren't boasting about how easy it's going to be. They are all chastened by how _hard_ it is. Nobody is out there talking about how handlers who use some +P are just big ol' mean meanies; instead, they're exchanging names of the best trainers that will welcome them and allow them to learn in their own way.
> 
> Sure, there are clueless people who talk about how all punishment is bad always and nobody ever needs it for anything and it serves no purpose besides to be mean. You know who they are? People who don't actually train dogs.
> 
> So, because this has been my experience and these are the people that I know, I think it's more than a little counterproductive to harsh on newbies because they're trying to do something different. These people are interested in the sport, they're going out there and trying, why not welcome them and work with them? Why not use the opportunity to create a good impression of the club?
> 
> If they fail then they fail. Who cares? People fail for all kinds of reasons. They fail because they don't have the right dog or life gets in the way or club politics drive them off or they're just sucky trainers regardless of methodology. Their failure doesn't reflect on you. Nobody takes that personally.
> 
> But when somebody gets driven away because they tried to do IPO with a weak dog, everybody agrees that the club is in the wrong, not the newbie who tried to get involved and didn't quite know what they were doing. And when somebody gets driven away because they wanted to try training without an e-collar, that's different because... why?
> 
> I mean, would it be different if the person couldn't use a prong because they had a physical disability? Would you welcome and try to work with that person? Be creative in trying to find alternative solutions?
> 
> Again, if it doesn't work then it doesn't work. Whoopie. But who's it hurting if they try? Worst case they go away feeling like "hey, at least this club was nice and welcoming and tried to work with me, and they weren't big ol' mean meanies like I thought they'd be."
> 
> This isn't a big sport, and it's a sport that is easily misunderstood by outsiders. Personally, because I like IPO and I would like to see it thrive in the U.S., I just want to encourage it to be welcoming to as many people as possible. Some of those people will become serious. Some of them won't. I think that all of them should at least leave with a good impression of the club and the sport, though.
> 
> 
> ...so that's my big long post about that. Quite candidly, I am hesitating about clicking "submit" on this because I really have no interest in getting dragged into an argument on this topic, especially if it's just going to be the same old argument that it always is.
> 
> but whatever, I wrote it and I check this board like once a month anyhow, what's the loss


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## Gillian Schuler

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Yet, without establishing the method its used to predict what performance the method will produce. Yet if they ever said no to the dog, its correction based training ir if you saud no fir bolting out the back door that will bleed over to the dog's frame of mind in competition heeling. If the handler lapsed into an episode of leash tensuon/restraint, then the pwrformance outcome is correction based
> Now, its how many points did they get. For something perceived as so impossible or invalid, it keeps getting a lot of attention--mostly to ridicule and protest. Hasn't this already been beat to death.


This is a debate about reaching goals in IPO. The goals are based on points. To achieve even "passing" one level to be able to start in the next, a certain amount of points must be earned.

If high points, especially in the protection phase, can be achiêved, 290 upwards, I would welcome someone to state the handler had trained the dog without any vocal or physical corrections.


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## Gillian Schuler

Haz Othman said:


> Shade went to Nationals with her dog and won. But if I recall correctly it was IPO 1-2 against a small field. I dont think she was competitive at the 3 at that level.
> However I could be wrong.


 The compeitition - what is "small field?"

The points count as they are the only criteria which is important.


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## Gillian Schuler

Christopher Smith said:


> I never tell someone to get lost if they are seriously dedicated and have a dog suitable for their goals. Maybe you should vist other clubs and form a first hand opinion.


 My trainer had this mindset and once I had buckled under to his way of training, I never looked back.

He was a confirmed GSD man and I had a Briard but I never disappointed him after our first discussion.


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## brad robert

Christopher Jones said:


> Low stim give cookie, low stim give cookie, low stim give cookie. Repeat 200 times then give a low stim and watch him drool.[/QUO
> 
> Yeah true Christopher it sure is an interesting method


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## Gillian Schuler

Gillian Schuler said:


> My trainer had this mindset and once I had buckled under to his way of training, I never looked back.
> 
> He was a confirmed GSD man and I had a Briard but I never disappointed him after our first discussion.



I have to add this.

I am a small but athletic handler who entered the IPO sport with a Briard and had a certain amount of success.
Score ranging 1PO 3 from 280 to 294. Scorebook available.

I have rather a volatile nature and if my dogs do not do as commanded, I act within seconds. However, I am not of a brutal nature although my husband sometimes drives me near to the edge!

I would just like to say that the opposite of positive training does not necessarily have to be brutal.

Those of you who are bringing up your dogs in positive training, can you be sure that evrything is positive?

How do you bring your dog to leave his relaxed position on your bed?


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## Lisa Radcliffe

Gillian Schuler said:


> I have to add this.
> 
> I am a small but athletic handler who entered the IPO sport with a Briard and had a certain amount of success.
> Score ranging 1PO 3 from 280 to 294. Scorebook available.
> 
> I have rather a volatile nature and if my dogs do not do as commanded, I act within seconds. However, I am not of a brutal nature although my husband sometimes drives me near to the edge!
> 
> I would just like to say that the opposite of positive training does not necessarily have to be brutal.
> 
> Those of you who are bringing up your dogs in positive training, can you be sure that evrything is positive?
> 
> How do you bring your dog to leave his relaxed position on your bed?


Good point! a little conflict hides everywhere but a lot of people who think they are training positive don't see it!


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## Lisa Radcliffe

Christopher Smith said:


> I do think it's a straw man to say that people trying to do IPO force-free (I won't say "purely positive" because I don't know anyone trying to do it with no corrections, just without prong/electric"
> 
> So using force is OK but it's the prong and electric that are the problem? It sounds to me that your group is doing what everyone that's good is doing; using minimal force to get the job done.
> 
> There's nothing special about that and definitely not what this thread is about.
> 
> BTW, getting an IPO title is not hard. It only takes time, dedication and a decent dog. But what makes things much easier is NOT trying to reinvent the training. And I'll let you.in on another secret. ...corrections in IPO are important for more than punishment.
> 
> Good luck!


I agree with all of your post except you left out something important, it takes Money!!!


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## Thomas Barriano

Gillian Schuler said:


> The compeitition - what is "small field?"
> 
> The points count as they are the only criteria which is important.



A total of five entries at the IPO II level (including Reiki and Shade) at the 2009 DVG Nationals and one dog pulled.
Shade and Reiki won with a 285. I can't say if they duplicated the score at a IPO III trial


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## Brian Anderson

brad robert said:


> Christopher Jones said:
> 
> 
> 
> Low stim give cookie, low stim give cookie, low stim give cookie. Repeat 200 times then give a low stim and watch him drool.[/QUO
> 
> Yeah true Christopher it sure is an interesting method
> 
> 
> 
> Christopher keep that stuff close to vest man!
Click to expand...


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## susan tuck

Christopher Smith said:


> I never tell someone to get lost if they are seriously dedicated and have a dog suitable for their goals. Maybe you should vist other clubs and form a first hand opinion.


This......BIG time.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Gillian Schuler said:


> I have to add this.
> 
> I am a small but athletic handler who entered the IPO sport with a Briard and had a certain amount of success.
> Score ranging 1PO 3 from 280 to 294. Scorebook available.
> 
> I have rather a volatile nature and if my dogs do not do as commanded, I act within seconds. However, I am not of a brutal nature although my husband sometimes drives me near to the edge!
> 
> I would just like to say that the opposite of positive training does not necessarily have to be brutal.
> 
> Those of you who are bringing up your dogs in positive training, can you be sure that evrything is positive?
> 
> How do you bring your dog to leave his relaxed position on your bed?


This is the problem with all this. Not training with e-collars and prongs or collar corrections isnt a claim for purely positive. Now the new phrase is force free. All the labeling start to defy common sense. The more marker training conditioned the dog is, the less the because I say so button comes into play. I have had the snap pop on my GSD come off four times with her running towards something. I say "here,". And she comes
She doesn't think about oh she's loose and I can't catch her because she's mentally conditioned. I've set it up countless times and marker trained through it. The goal in this training is to keep it on that level. My herding training and competition is the same way. Perhaps that's what's not understood. Relationship with the dog comes first. Points second. I could care less about proving one method better than the other or one gets more points. If that's how those people want to train and_/or relate to their dog, more power to them. The so called purely positive crowd doesn't think I'm positive enough. They are mortified I wholeheartedly believe in pack theory. That's fine. I'll discuss it to a point but at the end of the day to each's own. Someone visited my class last night and wanted to know why someone who trained with a national/world team level trainer was training agility with me. I heard the woman respond that her husband was there to work on the relationship with the dog. I've gone from the positive trainer to the relationship trainer. They all have their points and their wins and they ate so concerned about me and what I do and they spend a significant amount of time campaigning against what they think I do. I dont give them a moments thought. There are certain things I don't want to experience but really unless you are apart of my inner circle, I generally say, its yours, do what you want to do. I've had one dog that trialed consistently high in the numbers from day one. All of her trial training was marker trained. The dog prior to that was a retrain. The future dogs--marker training. So far, my current dogs issues are nerves. As I deal with conditioning for the nerves, the trial performances have consistently improved. Absent nerves sometimes the trial shows wholes and you decide you need to break it down further. I think the marker training makes them more specific. What we don't do is say its time for correction proofing. If the dog has zero pack drive and is in it for himself, he gets nothing in life unless he works for and through the handler to get it. You layer the marker and then he becomes operant. Am I out to prove that it works for all? No. I don't care about all. I care about the dog in front of me


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## Bob Scott

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> This is the problem with all this. Not training with e-collars and prongs or collar corrections isnt a claim for purely positive. Now the new phrase is force free. All the labeling start to defy common sense. The more marker training conditioned the dog is, the less the because I say so button comes into play. I have had the snap pop on my GSD come off four times with her running towards something. I say "here,". And she comes
> She doesn't think about oh she's loose and I can't catch her because she's mentally conditioned. I've set it up countless times and marker trained through it. The goal in this training is to keep it on that level. My herding training and competition is the same way. Perhaps that's what's not understood. Relationship with the dog comes first. Points second. I could care less about proving one method better than the other or one gets more points. If that's how those people want to train and_/or relate to their dog, more power to them. The so called purely positive crowd doesn't think I'm positive enough. They are mortified I wholeheartedly believe in pack theory. That's fine. I'll discuss it to a point but at the end of the day to each's own. Someone visited my class last night and wanted to know why someone who trained with a national/world team level trainer was training agility with me. I heard the woman respond that her husband was there to work on the relationship with the dog. I've gone from the positive trainer to the relationship trainer. They all have their points and their wins and they ate so concerned about me and what I do and they spend a significant amount of time campaigning against what they think I do. I dont give them a moments thought. There are certain things I don't want to experience but really unless you are apart of my inner circle, I generally say, its yours, do what you want to do. I've had one dog that trialed consistently high in the numbers from day one. All of her trial training was marker trained. The dog prior to that was a retrain. The future dogs--marker training. So far, my current dogs issues are nerves. As I deal with conditioning for the nerves, the trial performances have consistently improved. Absent nerves sometimes the trial shows wholes and you decide you need to break it down further. I think the marker training makes them more specific. What we don't do is say its time for correction proofing. If the dog has zero pack drive and is in it for himself, he gets nothing in life unless he works for and through the handler to get it. You layer the marker and then he becomes operant. Am I out to prove that it works for all? No. I don't care about all. I care about the dog in front of me


+1

The efforts to disprove it make as much sense to me as me trying to disprove compulsion/correction training.
The simple reason for that is I've titled dogs using both methods. 
With that I will say that using either one exclusively isn't something I have a need to do especially to prove anything to anyone but myself.


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## Christopher Smith

Who is trying to prove or disprove anything? You sound like an inadequate man trying to convince a woman that what counts is "the motion of the ocean". :razz:


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## Gillian Schuler

I cannot believe that a handler can bring a dog through IPO with Very Good results, i.e. 290 and over, or even less, without any corrections.

People laugh at IPO but even the tracking on ground that the dog has never before encountered can cause Problems,(that is why we let the dog out well beforehand to sniff out the area). Even tracking commands a few corrections, even if the dog obviously has to lead you without influence to the end of the track.

When it comes to the protection work, what is the positive reward that will stop the dog leaving your side to go to fight the helper?

I had a Briard who was very eager to work, but he still had to work the blinds in protection as an obedience exercise i.e. with corrections. He had one goal in mind "no blinds, just straight ahead to the helper"

What positive training can top this?

I am inclined to believe that obedience could succeed with positive training because here the dog is not "effervescent". Even here, the dog has to know that he has to do what you command him to do.

How does he "know" this with positive training.


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## Bob Scott

Christopher Smith said:


> Who is trying to prove or disprove anything? You sound like an inadequate man trying to convince a woman that what counts is "the motion of the ocean". :razz:



:lol: Not at my age. :lol: :razz:


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## Catherine Gervin

just as a statement from the waaayyyy less experienced country oft not heard from amidst seasoned trainers hashing it out, my dog is super soft in regard to her response to the handler. corrections from a prong collar when she is not in drive cause her to wilt like a flower on an Arizona driveway at noon. positive reinforcement and food rewards and lots of verbal praise will get more progress out of her than sharp corrections because of who she is. when it's her reacting to a nearby dog the corrections glance off of her unheeded, unnoticed, entirely. food is worthless then, too, of course. she is a soft dog-- i fully acknowledge this and would look to do better with my future next dog--so i have done quite well with positive methods but we do not use clickers. finding a trainer to help me without clickers has been most difficult and some trainers were HORRIFIED that i put a prong collar on her for walks. i just don't understand why people get so high fallutin' over trying to adapt to whatever works for that particular dog. isn't it all about the end result?


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Catherine Gervin said:


> just as a statement from the waaayyyy less experienced country oft not heard from amidst seasoned trainers hashing it out, my dog is super soft in regard to her response to the handler. corrections from a prong collar when she is not in drive cause her to wilt like a flower on an Arizona driveway at noon. positive reinforcement and food rewards and lots of verbal praise will get more progress out of her than sharp corrections because of who she is. when it's her reacting to a nearby dog the corrections glance off of her unheeded, unnoticed, entirely. food is worthless then, too, of course. she is a soft dog-- i fully acknowledge this and would look to do better with my future next dog--so i have done quite well with positive methods but we do not use clickers. finding a trainer to help me without clickers has been most difficult and some trainers were HORRIFIED that i put a prong collar on her for walks. i just don't understand why people get so high fallutin' over trying to adapt to whatever works for that particular dog. isn't it all about the end result?


Working with marker training doesn't have to involve clickers as a marker. I rarely use a clicker. My dogs are trained to a verbal marker. Sometimes I have used a clicker but for the most part not, even though I have about 10 of them in various places. Marker training/operant conditioning (huge emphasis on conditioning) also goes beyond, good boy, here's a cookie or a tug. I will say that I am not a "end justifies the means" trainer. There are some things I don't want any part of and don't allow them done in my presence when I control the environment. And as I've taught my son, at some point its time to leave. Otherwise you are participating in it.


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## Catherine Gervin

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Working with marker training doesn't have to involve clickers as a marker. I rarely use a clicker. My dogs are trained to a verbal marker.
> that is what i've ended up doing, a "good" and some bait or a toy...it may take longer sometimes, but it gets the point across whereas a correction from the prong collar she's wearing just jolts her into an unpleasant state of mind.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Catherine Gervin said:


> Terrasita Cuffie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Working with marker training doesn't have to involve clickers as a marker. I'll rarely use a clicker. My dogs are trained to a verbal marker.
> that is what i've ended up doing, a "good" and some bait or a toy...it may take longer sometimes, but it gets the point across whereas a correction from the prong collar she's wearing just jolts her into an unpleasant state of mind.
> 
> 
> 
> If the prong is ineffective, why use it. Also, describe the unpleasant state of mind.
Click to expand...


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## Catherine Gervin

i use the prong to keep a better hold on her during her upswells of dog aggression. when she is anywhere less than two blocks from a dog--any size, any type, any age--she hackles up, starts to haul to pursue, starts vocalizing and riling up. the closer she gets--unless she is grievously outnumbered, like three dogs behind a fence--the more she tries to engage. she is not just bluffing, either, because when loose she has charged in and attacked. prong corrections only serve to make her more insistent to fight--she doesn't heed them, she doesn't redirect onto me, she just works harder to push through them to get at the dog. neither food nor toys has proven more interesting than trying to get at other dogs. she hates puppies too. she was attacked by two separated dogs--a Beagle who ran out of a house at us, and a PVGV which jumped out of a car while the owner was in the store--when i first brought her home at 4 months and she wasn't hurt to the point of drawn blood, in fact she chomped the Beagle enough to back him off, but from that point on she was sketchy with almost all dogs, aside from one buddy she had before we moved and two buddies she has now.
the reaction to the prong collar was totally something i did to her. another customer of the same breeder--the man from whom we came to the breeder upon his recommendation, actually, as he worked for the same company as my husband--who owned a cousin of my pup came over to help me with some training when she was about 5 months old. his dog was completely different in personality than my pup--his dog is training in Personal Protection with an ecollar and she is a monster, a serious and scary girl. he was incredibly knowledgeable, but he uses compulsion training methods with his dog and i--who have never had a GSD before tend to use more positive stuff with verbal corrections and maybe a choke chain for an older puppy. he provided me with the prong collar, said it was more effective and actually did less damage than repeated corrections with a choke chain--which crushes the esophagus--and his results with his dog were very precise and total. when my pup was intimidated by him into not responding to food and commands she had previously heeded he had me pop her with the collar and she wilted into totally shutting down. the first time she complied, the second time she received a pop after a refusal she went inert. i put her back in the house to take a break and he and i talked about goals and steps for awhile and then i went to try her again, so i could at least end on a positive note, and when i went to put on the prong collar again she was so frightened that she peed. i felt--and still feel--terrible. i failed to read her body language, i failed to protect her from something scary, i actually inflicted the scary painful thing, and to this day she cringes when we put on her flat collar to go out. when i told the man helping me train, he was instantly so disgusted with my dog that he stopped helping me train. he told me he would get rid of her--return her and start over with a new pup. he called our breeder and told him not to repeat that breeding again--that it was turning out bad dogs. he was aware that my pup was a super-submissive puppy from that litter, but he intended to drag her out of it, i guess? i realized--too late--that i had let my impression of how accomplished his dog appeared to ignore my own judgement and that this had hurt my dog. i was a fool and i had hurt my dog. we did things slowly and my way after that and she has come very very far, but she did have to continue to wear the prong collar--unattached to anything, just on her until she was used to it and didn't give it a second thought--after that because otherwise she would have been permanently terrified of it. i learned a very hard lesson about the kinds of advice you can get, and about limitations--my own and my dog's, both--but my poor pup suffered because i listened to someone who gave the wrong guidance for my situation. incidentally his dog is stalling somewhere along the lines in her training and i can't help but think it is because he is too brutal in his general treatment. 
for my part, i say what i mean to both my dog and my child and you have to do what i tell you, but i'm not going to hurt you to make you obey me, i'm just going to punish you with verbal disapproval and still making you do what i've asked. do i spank my child? yep, when i have to, but i don't pound on her. it's more about the shame of having somebody else see her get her swat on the butt. do i tell my dog "nien " and that something she has done is bad? yes, but then i ask her again to do what i wanted and i praise heartily when she does it. we don't always have a leash connected to the prong collar, but she doesn't pull when she wears it and she doesn't give me attitude about wanting to go another route on the walk when she wears it. we obviously need to work on our overall obedience and we do so, every day along the course of our day. i wear a painter's apron with a ball and bait whenever we go out, and mostly my dog is really well behaved. for those times when she isn't, we will keep working, and i have classes set up with a private trainer to work on the dog aggression stuff this summer, so i have high hopes!


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## Catherine Gervin

sorry for the "War and Peace" length of that post!!


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## Joby Becker

Catherine Gervin said:


> i use the prong to keep a better hold on her during her upswells of dog aggression.
> Understandable but not wh when she is anywhere less than two blocks from a dog--any size, any type, any age--she hackles up, starts to haul to pursue, starts vocalizing and riling up. the closer she gets--unless she is grievously outnumbered, like three dogs behind a fence--the more she tries to engage. she is not just bluffing, either, because when loose she has charged in and attacked. prong corrections only serve to make her more insistent to fight--she doesn't heed them, she doesn't redirect onto me, she just works harder to push through them to get at the dog. neither food nor toys has proven more interesting than trying to get at other dogs. she hates puppies too. she was attacked by two separated dogs--a Beagle who ran out of a house at us, and a PVGV which jumped out of a car while the owner was in the store--when i first brought her home at 4 months and she wasn't hurt to the point of drawn blood, in fact she chomped the Beagle enough to back him off, but from that point on she was sketchy with almost all dogs, aside from one buddy she had before we moved and two buddies she has now.
> the reaction to the prong collar was totally something i did to her. another customer of the same breeder--the man from whom we came to the breeder upon his recommendation, actually, as he worked for the same company as my husband--who owned a cousin of my pup came over to help me with some training when she was about 5 months old. his dog was completely different in personality than my pup--his dog is training in Personal Protection with an ecollar and she is a monster, a serious and scary girl. he was incredibly knowledgeable, but he uses compulsion training methods with his dog and i--who have never had a GSD before tend to use more positive stuff with verbal corrections and maybe a choke chain for an older puppy. he provided me with the prong collar, said it was more effective and actually did less damage than repeated corrections with a choke chain--which crushes the esophagus--and his results with his dog were very precise and total. when my pup was intimidated by him into not responding to food and commands she had previously heeded he had me pop her with the collar and she wilted into totally shutting down. the first time she complied, the second time she received a pop after a refusal she went inert. i put her back in the house to take a break and he and i talked about goals and steps for awhile and then i went to try her again, so i could at least end on a positive note, and when i went to put on the prong collar again she was so frightened that she peed. i felt--and still feel--terrible. i failed to read her body language, i failed to protect her from something scary, i actually inflicted the scary painful thing, and to this day she cringes when we put on her flat collar to go out. when i told the man helping me train, he was instantly so disgusted with my dog that he stopped helping me train. he told me he would get rid of her--return her and start over with a new pup. he called our breeder and told him not to repeat that breeding again--that it was turning out bad dogs. he was aware that my pup was a super-submissive puppy from that litter, but he intended to drag her out of it, i guess? i realized--too late--that i had let my impression of how accomplished his dog appeared to ignore my own judgement and that this had hurt my dog. i was a fool and i had hurt my dog. we did things slowly and my way after that and she has come very very far, but she did have to continue to wear the prong collar--unattached to anything, just on her until she was used to it and didn't give it a second thought--after that because otherwise she would have been permanently terrified of it. i learned a very hard lesson about the kinds of advice you can get, and about limitations--my own and my dog's, both--but my poor pup suffered because i listened to someone who gave the wrong guidance for my situation. incidentally his dog is stalling somewhere along the lines in her training and i can't help but think it is because he is too brutal in his general treatment.
> for my part, i say what i mean to both my dog and my child and you have to do what i tell you, but i'm not going to hurt you to make you obey me, i'm just going to punish you with verbal disapproval and still making you do what i've asked. do i spank my child? yep, when i have to, but i don't pound on her. it's more about the shame of having somebody else see her get her swat on the butt. do i tell my dog "nien " and that something she has done is bad? yes, but then i ask her again to do what i wanted and i praise heartily when she does it. we don't always have a leash connected to the prong collar, but she doesn't pull when she wears it and she doesn't give me attitude about wanting to go another route on the walk when she wears it. we obviously need to work on our overall obedience and we do so, every day along the course of our day. i wear a painter's apron with a ball and bait whenever we go out, and mostly my dog is really well behaved. for those times when she isn't, we will keep working, and i have classes set up with a private trainer to work on the dog aggression stuff this summer, so i have high hopes!


holy crap...get some help for sure....


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## Terrasita Cuffie

And lose the prong. More harm than good--fear association and it fuels aggression.


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## Tiago Fontes

Joby Becker said:


> holy crap...get some help for sure....



Took the words right out of my mouth!


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## Joby Becker

:-o


Tiago Fontes said:


> Took the words right out of my mouth!


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## Wayne Scace

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> This is the problem with all this. Not training with e-collars and prongs or collar corrections isnt a claim for purely positive. Now the new phrase is force free. All the labeling start to defy common sense. The more marker training conditioned the dog is, the less the because I say so button comes into play. I have had the snap pop on my GSD come off four times with her running towards something. I say "here,". And she comes
> She doesn't think about oh she's loose and I can't catch her because she's mentally conditioned. I've set it up countless times and marker trained through it. The goal in this training is to keep it on that level. My herding training and competition is the same way. Perhaps that's what's not understood. Relationship with the dog comes first. Points second. I could care less about proving one method better than the other or one gets more points. If that's how those people want to train and_/or relate to their dog, more power to them. The so called purely positive crowd doesn't think I'm positive enough. They are mortified I wholeheartedly believe in pack theory. That's fine. I'll discuss it to a point but at the end of the day to each's own. Someone visited my class last night and wanted to know why someone who trained with a national/world team level trainer was training agility with me. I heard the woman respond that her husband was there to work on the relationship with the dog. I've gone from the positive trainer to the relationship trainer. They all have their points and their wins and they ate so concerned about me and what I do and they spend a significant amount of time campaigning against what they think I do. I dont give them a moments thought. There are certain things I don't want to experience but really unless you are apart of my inner circle, I generally say, its yours, do what you want to do. I've had one dog that trialed consistently high in the numbers from day one. All of her trial training was marker trained. The dog prior to that was a retrain. The future dogs--marker training. So far, my current dogs issues are nerves. As I deal with conditioning for the nerves, the trial performances have consistently improved. Absent nerves sometimes the trial shows wholes and you decide you need to break it down further. I think the marker training makes them more specific. What we don't do is say its time for correction proofing. If the dog has zero pack drive and is in it for himself, he gets nothing in life unless he works for and through the handler to get it. You layer the marker and then he becomes operant. Am I out to prove that it works for all? No. I don't care about all. I care about the dog in front of me


*Well said Ma'am!!*


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## Donna DeYoung

you were asking for scores?
1) using mostly positive and also very inconsistent training methods. Result. FAIL BH.
2) adding compulsion and better training for 8 months...PASS BH, AD, IPO 1, almost pass IPO 2 at regional level.
3) consistent better training ( w compulsion) for additional 6+ months- should be getting IPO 2 and 3 and improved scores.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Donna DeYoung said:


> you were asking for scores?
> 1) using mostly positive and also very inconsistent training methods. Result. FAIL BH.
> 2) adding compulsion and better training for 8 months...PASS BH, AD, IPO 1, almost pass IPO 2 at regional level.
> 3) consistent better training ( w compulsion) for additional 6+ months- should be getting IPO 2 and 3 and improved scores.


















Can you describe "mostly positive" and "inconsistent training methods?"


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## Bob Scott

Inconsistent training methods will corrupt ANY training method. Failure is a given IMO.


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## Donna DeYoung

:?


Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Can you describe "mostly positive" and "inconsistent training methods?"


Food, clicker, for positive. Taught all the "tricks" of ob including play retrieve. Inconsistent bec I was not strong enough handler and did not get good help needed for this dog. Major fail for lack of control made me open my eyes and get the help I needed (Along w encouragement of some people top in the sport). 

As example when I started back w protection (dog had only done ob for a yr, no bitework).my dog didnt even have an out. 7 months later i passed ipo1 w 94 in protection and one month after that I was competing at a regional event for my 2. Some people thought I'd never make it to a field. Haha. 

Still have a long way to go. Cant brag too much yet but people who knew my dog from "before" can't believe its the same dog.ho


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## Gillian Schuler

I just watched a German Programme on Vegetarian + Vegan vs Meat Eaters.

The non-meat eaters came over as "holier than thou" and one vegetarian accused the meat eaters as animal murderers.

I am not a great meat eater but I do love Wildschwein, (wild boar) shot by our neighbour. It is so different from the pork in the Supermarket.

I find parallels between positive and non-positive dog handlers with regard to the above which I find shameful.

Who says that positive training for the dog is really positive. Maybe it leaves the dog in a grey zone?

At school i was forced to attend and, if I disobeyed, I had to stay behind and write 100 times "I will never be disobedient again (I had a long list of bad deeds) but will not bore you with them here.

Anti-authority upbringing was useless for children, why should it be useful for dogs??


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## Donna DeYoung

Good pt Gillian. I dont know any behavioral system in the wild that works off all positive. Even plants have a defense system that includes harm. They only use attractants when they want their seed spread or to be pollinated.


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## Chris McDonald

Catherine Gervin said:


> i use the prong to keep a better hold on her during her upswells of dog aggression. when she is anywhere less than two blocks from a dog--any size, any type, any age--she hackles up, starts to haul to pursue, starts vocalizing and riling up. the closer she gets--unless she is grievously outnumbered, like three dogs behind a fence--the more she tries to engage. she is not just bluffing, either, because when loose she has charged in and attacked. prong corrections only serve to make her more insistent to fight--she doesn't heed them, she doesn't redirect onto me, she just works harder to push through them to get at the dog. neither food nor toys has proven more interesting than trying to get at other dogs. she hates puppies too. she was attacked by two separated dogs--a Beagle who ran out of a house at us, and a PVGV which jumped out of a car while the owner was in the store--when i first brought her home at 4 months and she wasn't hurt to the point of drawn blood, in fact she chomped the Beagle enough to back him off, but from that point on she was sketchy with almost all dogs, aside from one buddy she had before we moved and two buddies she has now.
> the reaction to the prong collar was totally something i did to her. another customer of the same breeder--the man from whom we came to the breeder upon his recommendation, actually, as he worked for the same company as my husband--who owned a cousin of my pup came over to help me with some training when she was about 5 months old. his dog was completely different in personality than my pup--his dog is training in Personal Protection with an ecollar and she is a monster, a serious and scary girl. he was incredibly knowledgeable, but he uses compulsion training methods with his dog and i--who have never had a GSD before tend to use more positive stuff with verbal corrections and maybe a choke chain for an older puppy. he provided me with the prong collar, said it was more effective and actually did less damage than repeated corrections with a choke chain--which crushes the esophagus--and his results with his dog were very precise and total. when my pup was intimidated by him into not responding to food and commands she had previously heeded he had me pop her with the collar and she wilted into totally shutting down. the first time she complied, the second time she received a pop after a refusal she went inert. i put her back in the house to take a break and he and i talked about goals and steps for awhile and then i went to try her again, so i could at least end on a positive note, and when i went to put on the prong collar again she was so frightened that she peed. i felt--and still feel--terrible. i failed to read her body language, i failed to protect her from something scary, i actually inflicted the scary painful thing, and to this day she cringes when we put on her flat collar to go out. when i told the man helping me train, he was instantly so disgusted with my dog that he stopped helping me train. he told me he would get rid of her--return her and start over with a new pup. he called our breeder and told him not to repeat that breeding again--that it was turning out bad dogs. he was aware that my pup was a super-submissive puppy from that litter, but he intended to drag her out of it, i guess? i realized--too late--that i had let my impression of how accomplished his dog appeared to ignore my own judgement and that this had hurt my dog. i was a fool and i had hurt my dog. we did things slowly and my way after that and she has come very very far, but she did have to continue to wear the prong collar--unattached to anything, just on her until she was used to it and didn't give it a second thought--after that because otherwise she would have been permanently terrified of it. i learned a very hard lesson about the kinds of advice you can get, and about limitations--my own and my dog's, both--but my poor pup suffered because i listened to someone who gave the wrong guidance for my situation. incidentally his dog is stalling somewhere along the lines in her training and i can't help but think it is because he is too brutal in his general treatment.
> for my part, i say what i mean to both my dog and my child and you have to do what i tell you, but i'm not going to hurt you to make you obey me, i'm just going to punish you with verbal disapproval and still making you do what i've asked. do i spank my child? yep, when i have to, but i don't pound on her. it's more about the shame of having somebody else see her get her swat on the butt. do i tell my dog "nien " and that something she has done is bad? yes, but then i ask her again to do what i wanted and i praise heartily when she does it. we don't always have a leash connected to the prong collar, but she doesn't pull when she wears it and she doesn't give me attitude about wanting to go another route on the walk when she wears it. we obviously need to work on our overall obedience and we do so, every day along the course of our day. i wear a painter's apron with a ball and bait whenever we go out, and mostly my dog is really well behaved. for those times when she isn't, we will keep working, and i have classes set up with a private trainer to work on the dog aggression stuff this summer, so i have high hopes!


 
Do you have any video of this dog doing anything posted? You have “personal protection” listed in you stuff on the side..with this dog? What is your approach on your dog aggression problem and why are you going to be working on it over a summer?


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## Katie Finlay

Let's please note now that mostly positive does not equal purely positive so we can keep this thread on the right track for those looking for actual results of purely positive training.


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## Katie Finlay

Or force free, or whatever it's called...


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## Catherine Gervin

Chris McDonald said:


> Do you have any video of this dog doing anything posted? You have “personal protection” listed in you stuff on the side..with this dog? What is your approach on your dog aggression problem and why are you going to be working on it over a summer?


i don't have any video because i would need someone to show me how to film it, how to load it on here, etc--i am technologically defunct, it's pathetic, i know, but i guess i'm just not interested sufficiently to learn my way into progress...my husband says he will help me film some stuff sometime, but he says this begrudgingly and he is really busy between being active in the Army Reserves and his civilian job for the DOD. also, the dog is really just "my thing" so i'm kind of left to my own devices.
when i say Personal Protection i mean that it is my intention to have my dog reach a state wherein i can be utterly confident in both her will and her training to protect both my daughter and myself, should we need it. given what i have seen of her nature thusfar i have no doubt that she would do her best to try and protect us, but she needs professional training to really be good at doing this, and we cannot do any club training until i can get her to listen to me while other dogs are around.
lately we have made some progress in listening and making eye contact in the proximity of another dog, but it is for brief periods of time. baby steps.


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## Tamandra Michaels

Gillian Schuler said:


> I cannot believe that a handler can bring a dog through IPO with Very Good results, i.e. 290 and over, or even less, without any corrections.
> When it comes to the protection work, what is the positive reward that will stop the dog leaving your side to go to fight the helper?
> 
> I had a Briard who was very eager to work, but he still had to work the blinds in protection as an obedience exercise i.e. with corrections. He had one goal in mind "no blinds, just straight ahead to the helper"
> 
> What positive training can top this?
> How does he "know" this with positive training.


What tops it is USING it, teaching the only way to access a bite is through the handler and the obedience. That's how they "know" this with positive training. 

I learn from Shade, and have a pup from her. (She got 5th at the IPO3 Nationals btw) Looking forward to her results with her pup, as she just keeps improving her skills and knowledge. My main reason for choosing to train this way, is I believe that it's actually *good* training, and I really love the results, and the relationship. 
But as for results training positively in competition, I think Shade's got some kick-ass results so far.


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## Katie Finlay

Tamandra Michaels said:


> What tops it is USING it, teaching the only way to access a bite is through the handler and the obedience. That's how they "know" this with positive training.
> 
> 
> 
> I learn from Shade, and have a pup from her. (She got 5th at the IPO3 Nationals btw) Looking forward to her results with her pup, as she just keeps improving her skills and knowledge. My main reason for choosing to train this way, is I believe that it's actually *good* training, and I really love the results, and the relationship.
> 
> But as for results training positively in competition, I think Shade's got some kick-ass results so far.



She has not gotten results with no corrections though, as has already been established.


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## Christopher Smith

Yep! Of course! This is the same stuff I have been saying on here for years. Even the queen of clicker training, Karen Pryor, is getting called out for being full of shit.

And I'm still waiting for those results people!

http://clickandtreat.com/wordpress/?p=884


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## Nick Hrycaj

Hopefully the people in the all positive camps will heed the 'real world' application argument Gary makes in the argument. Maybe house pets don't have formal bite training but the teeth in their mouth while they are out of control are no less dangerous. Gsd vs deer and total inability to recall the dog forced me to initially are the benefit of e-collar work for example


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## Haz Othman

I enjoyed that read. LOL "she wouldnt be able to recall her dog from sniffing a bug". 

I dont think most dogs in exclusively positive/force free systems "know" much of anything, and its not their fault.


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## richard k fox

Catherine Gervin said:


> i don't have any video because i would need someone to show me how to film it, how to load it on here, etc--i am technologically defunct, it's pathetic, i know, but i guess i'm just not interested sufficiently to learn my way into progress...my husband says he will help me film some stuff sometime, but he says this begrudgingly and he is really busy between being active in the Army Reserves and his civilian job for the DOD. also, the dog is really just "my thing" so i'm kind of left to my own devices.
> when i say Personal Protection i mean that it is my intention to have my dog reach a state wherein i can be utterly confident in both her will and her training to protect both my daughter and myself, should we need it. given what i have seen of her nature thusfar i have no doubt that she would do her best to try and protect us, but she needs professional training to really be good at doing this, and we cannot do any club training until i can get her to listen to me while other dogs are around.
> lately we have made some progress in listening and making eye contact in the proximity of another dog, but it is for brief periods of time. baby steps.


with the right dog, I suspect that what you need is absolute obedience from the dog and teaching her what is a "real" threat. if she doesn't listen to you under distraction now, please don't even think about teaching her more bitework!


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## Gillian Schuler

Does she listen to or focus on you if no other dog / distraction is present? That wuld be the first step.


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## Steve Burger

Tamandra Michaels said:


> What tops it is USING it, teaching the only way to access a bite is through the handler and the obedience. That's how they "know" this with positive training.
> 
> I learn from Shade, and have a pup from her. (She got 5th at the IPO3 Nationals btw) Looking forward to her results with her pup, as she just keeps improving her skills and knowledge. My main reason for choosing to train this way, is I believe that it's actually *good* training, and I really love the results, and the relationship.
> But as for results training positively in competition, I think Shade's got some kick-ass results so far.


 Which IPO3 Nationals are we talking about here?


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## Catherine Gervin

Gillian Schuler said:


> Does she listen to or focus on you if no other dog / distraction is present? That wuld be the first step.


she is a straight A student without other dogs--around dogs it is catch as catch can. today--and i'm VERY EXCITED ABOUT THIS, it's almost pathetic how anticipatory i am for this, actually,--we are going to a trainer to assess her strengths and weaknesses and whether or not she can actually proceed with any kind of Ring Sport work and YAY!
so: i will provide an update once we see what we shall see, just in case there are interested parties


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## Tamandra Michaels

Steve Burger said:


> Which IPO3 Nationals are we talking about here?


One was DVG, the dog got first, another AWDA, got fifth. And he was not trained with corrections. 

Though nobody is absolutely all positive. The Gary Wilkes piece has a number of misleading things, and outright misinformation. Clearly there's an ax to grind there. He makes some interesting and true points, but then completely invalidates himself. False facts mixed with true ones and making a false argument out of them to impress people.


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## Nick Hrycaj

Tamandua, Doesn't your post "completely invalidate" your view? 

You said "he was not trained with corrections" then "nobody is all positive,"


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## Gillian Schuler

Catherine Gervin said:


> she is a straight A student without other dogs--around dogs it is catch as catch can. today--and i'm VERY EXCITED ABOUT THIS, it's almost pathetic how anticipatory i am for this, actually,--we are going to a trainer to assess her strengths and weaknesses and whether or not she can actually proceed with any kind of Ring Sport work and YAY!
> so: i will provide an update once we see what we shall see, just in case there are interested parties


I don't want to burst your "Cloud 9" bubble but you should be able to see this for yourself.

Have you ever tried distractions such as a ball or tug?

Give heed to Richard Fox's advice.

Christopher Smith

Sorry for derailing your thread but I have finished now and the thought of opening up a new thread for this actually irked me.


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## Catherine Gervin

Gillian Schuler said:


> I don't want to burst your "Cloud 9" bubble but you should be able to see this for yourself.
> 
> Have you ever tried distractions such as a ball or tug?
> 
> 
> distractions are a no-go, as nothing--not food, not squeaky ball, not tugging --has been able to dissuade her, but last nite the trainer suggested a soft choke collar (a nylon ione, not a chainlink one, am i using the wrong name?) to cut off her air supply rather than trying to use pain to get her attention, which pain wasn't capable of doing anyway. she has never seen a flirt pole and she would not respond to him holding the line of one, but she would tug for me on it...pretty slow start but i'll take it. he seemed pretty enthusiastic about being able to start private lessons with just one of his non-reactive dogs and my dog to get her working and then adding more dogs as she grew tolerable. i am enthused, but this will all have to wait until after Christmas because i have a five year old daughter and Christmas is totally her main event. come the beginning of January i get to do some classes and hopefully start making some actual progress on our goals!


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## Christopher Smith

Tamandra Michaels said:


> One was DVG, the dog got first, another AWDA, got fifth. And he was not trained with corrections.
> 
> Though nobody is absolutely all positive. The Gary Wilkes piece has a number of misleading things, and outright misinformation. Clearly there's an ax to grind there. He makes some interesting and true points, but then completely invalidates himself. False facts mixed with true ones and making a false argument out of them to impress people.


Tamandra your post is schizophrenic. And it is a FACT that is not open for debate that she used corrections to train that dog. She admitted here after I found a video of her doing it. Check the archives.


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## Haz Othman

Tamandra Michaels said:


> One was DVG, the dog got first, another AWDA, got fifth. And he was not trained with corrections.
> 
> Though nobody is absolutely all positive. The Gary Wilkes piece has a number of misleading things, and outright misinformation. Clearly there's an ax to grind there. He makes some interesting and true points, but then completely invalidates himself. False facts mixed with true ones and making a false argument out of them to impress people.


Funny I can find Wilkes training on youtube. He has proven success and what he says actually makes sense from an experience standpoint..for those of us that have trained a few dogs. Im sure he tells lots of lies that dont coincide with your world view.
I hope the cool aid goes down smooth .


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## Tamandra Michaels

Nick Hrycaj said:


> Tamandua, Doesn't your post "completely invalidate" your view?
> 
> You said "he was not trained with corrections" then "nobody is all positive,"


No, not at all. To be "pure" positive, that would mean not even using negative punishment, which is removal of what the dog finds reinforcing as a consequence. That's what I mean by nobody is ALL positive.


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## Tamandra Michaels

Christopher, she gave the dog a handful of corrections during one training scenario, out of frustration. It didn't work anyway, so it didn't even achieve the desired outcome. She's quite honest about it, sure. And I'm not trying to hold people up as some kind of "proof", either. It's about good training, not some positive "badge" someone lost for using +P a couple times. Most of us have lost that 'badge', even by verbal corrections, or other 'force lite'. The important thing is that she crossed over, got great results with training in a new way, and has improved and refined it over that dog. So we shall see how things go with the new competition dog. 

Yeah, I find Gary all over the place, in forums, YouTube... and yes, what he says makes sense on many accounts. I was speaking about that particular post. I'm talking about training, not world views here. Believe me, I'm not in some pozzie la la land. Gary has been clicker training before anyone, he knows his science and facts well. I see the point of teaching about inhibiting behavior with punishment. Not every trainer (let alone pet person) is up for the commitment it can take to train to avoid using compulsion. However, if that is one's choice, as it is mine, it's entirely do-able, especially with a highly motivated, driven dog.


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