# Supplementing Kibble



## Megan Bays (Oct 10, 2008)

I'm feeding Ike raw meat, but as he grows I want to make sure he gets everything he needs.

And feeding raw means introducing new foods slowly.

I know mixing raw and kibble is a bad idea b/c of the different times it takes to digest.

But, would it be okay if I used a good kibble (I was thinking Chicken Soup for the Puppy Lovers Sould b/c it has a good price and is readily available to me) to give him his treats through out the day and feed a portion of his food that way?


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## Alyssa Myracle (Aug 4, 2008)

Here is my personal experience with one dog. You may take from it what you wish.

My GSD was fed strictly kibble from weaning until 5 months of age. 
The kibble was a high quality, grain-free kibble that the dog did quite well on.

Beginning at 5 months of age, I began experiementing with raw. I began giving the occassional chicken quarter in leiu of her evening meal of kibble.

Pleased with the results and her enthusiasm for the raw food, I began feeding the high quality kibble every morning and raw every evening. The meals were spread 10 hours apart.
I wanted to switch to raw completely, but was worried that 1) I might not "get it right" and my dog might miss out on vital nutrients, and 2) that if I was forced to leave my dog in a kennel due to travel associated with my profession, that they may be unable or unwilling to feed her raw.

At around 9 months of age, after great success feeding kibble and raw, daily, my dog became suddenly and violently ill one evening.
After a completely normal day of training, I noticed that she had a _slightly_ loose stool, which I attributed to heat and exhertion during training.

Within 2 hours of that loose stool, she became suddenly lethargic. An hour later, she projectile vomited, without warning. She did not even bother to stand up.
Taking her outside (it was raining, BTW), she proceeded to projectile vomit once more, and then lay down in the middle of the yard, in the pouring rain.

I knew at that point that she needed to go to the vet, NOW.

$420 later, it was determined that she had colitis, an inflammation of the colon.

The vet did NOT blame the colitis on raw food, but rather, the mixture of raw and kibble.
The slower rate at which the kibble digests was trapping raw food in her digestive system for longer than it would normally take. This caused bacteria which would normally pass through quickly without ill effect, to linger and multiply in her bowel, causing the inflammation.

Initially, I was unconvinced, until a second bout.

I made the decision to switch her onto raw only, occassionally supplementing with The Honest Kitchen dehydrated foods to ensure 1) that she gets a well-balanced diet and 2) so she'll have an emergency food in case of a broken freezer, or if she has to stay in a boarding kennel.


BY NO MEANS am I saying that this is definitely going to happen to another person who feeds both kibble and raw. 
Just my experience, and why I don't recommend doing it anymore.


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## Jenn Schoonbrood (Oct 31, 2008)

I'll second that if you're going to supplement raw, it's probably best to do it with a dehydrated food. Honest Kitchen was mentioned - I had no problem at all with it. I prefer N-R-G. Another "dietary premix" I like is Urban Wolf, but I use a LOT less of it than the company recommends.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Megan McCallister said:


> I'm feeding Ike *raw meat*, but as he grows I want to make sure he gets everything he needs.


Just before Connie jumps in...I want to make sure that you are not just feeding Ike RAW MEAT....that you really mean that you have researched a raw diet and are including RMB's as well as organ meat and perhaps veg in proper amounts? Maybe this is what you meant you are supplementing with the kibble? Just checking.

Anyhoo, I would do one or the other personally.

I feed my dog raw and don't seem to have any issues switching him to a grain free kibble for extended trips, I have also used the N-R-G product Jenn mentioned. Then I go back to raw when I get back home.

I started my dog on raw at 9 months so I don't claim to have experience in raw feeding pups, but there are people here that do.


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## Megan Bays (Oct 10, 2008)

Sorry I should have specified RMBs  #-o.

He's been getting chicken leg quarters w/ probiotics 1x daily, and pumpkin if his stools are runny. I give either ground turkey, chicken, beef, or venison 1x a day also. (He was on ground venison when he left the breeder.) I've ordered salmon oil, and will pick up d-alpha vit e next time I go to the store. He's also getting an egg every other day.

The chicken leg quarters have a little bit of organ meat on them, but other than that I've not fed organ meat yet. His stools aren't quite were I'd like them to be, and I'm trying to figure out whats making them soft. I'm also waiting to add veggies for the same reasons.

I'm just worried about not getting him all the nutrients he needs right now b/c I'm adding things so slowly.

I had thought about adding THK food, but was just curious about adding kibble so that I could give more of his daily food rations through treats. I have been microwaving the ground meat, cutting it up, and giving most of it out as treats.

Alyssa thats awful you had to figure out not to feed raw that way, but at least she's okay!

Thanks for the other suggestions on the dehydrated foods. Do you know if they are available in the states, and which ones do you prefer/why?


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Okay..just checking:razz: 

N-R-G is a small Canadian company. Can't tell you if it is available in the US. I can't get THK here so can't tell you anything about it other than I know that many people use it and are happy with it.


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## Jenn Schoonbrood (Oct 31, 2008)

The main reason I prefer NRG is it has more "substance" when rehydrated - it's more of a mash, and less of a slop, if that makes sense. I did like using Honest Kitchen, and I thought it smelled good. I did have trouble keeping weight on young malinois with Honest Kitchen without supplementing it with RMB's and since I was looking mostly for a food to feed on the road when raw was inconvenient, NRG fit the bill better. Perhaps others have better luck using Honest Kitchen as a complete diet, but for me it ended up being more like Urban Wolf in that it was more suited to use as a premix.

Edited to Add: I did use Honest Kitchen a long time ago before they came out with all the new formulations. Perhaps there is a better formula now.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

I had a dog that would get an interstinal infection from mixing raw and kibble - actually it was raw diet, plus some biscuits in training. Happened a few times 'cause I'm a moron like that. In that dog, it presented as yellow voluminous stool that continued even when the dog was completely fasted for several days.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Megan, how old is the dog? How long have you been feeding raw? How often (and for how long) have his stools been soft?

If he is otherwise healthy and never had pudding stools before the raw, I can almost guarantee that it will be a simple fix with readjusting the first fat fed, and then the dog needs more than chicken quarters. 

Introducing the entire raw diet, once the pudding poop is straightened out, won't even take ten days, so unless you have another reason for supplementing with commercial food, I think you can avoid that completely.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Alyssa Myracle said:


> BY NO MEANS am I saying that this is definitely going to happen to another person who feeds both kibble and raw.
> Just my experience, and why I don't recommend doing it anymore.


Neither do I.

I know that many do so, and will continue to (probably with no problem), but it's not a great idea. 

At the very least, they should be separated by the length of the day, but that's not always good enough, either.

There's another thread about this right now, in fact.
http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f25/bravo-food-10303/index2.html#post110405

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f25/bravo-food-10303/#post110402


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## Megan Bays (Oct 10, 2008)

The pup was weaned from the mother on ground venison. He is about 10 weeks old now.

His stools were fine when I got him. The first two days at home they were a little soft, but I attributed that to all the stress of coming into a new home. Then they started firming up.

I added some turkey necks to the diet (which he doesn't seem to care for that much) and they became a little soft. After they were firmer on it, I switched from turkey necks to chicken leg quarters. The leg quarters came from Wal Mart, and I skinned and defatted them to the best of my ability. There is still some fat on them (I couldn't get it all).

And it's not like his poop is real pudding like daily, only happens if I introduce too much of a new thing. It's just soft, does that make sense? I've been giving him pumpkin 1x a day hoping it'd fix it, but now I'm wondering if I'm making it worse...

He's also been getting either ground venison or beef daily as well. 

I have no other reason to give commercial dog food. I am wanting raise this pup entirely on raw. I've done it on and off w/ my older dogs for a while, and am currently in the off stage due to lack of freezer space. As soon as I get a deep freeze they will both go back on it, and stay on it hopefully.

I guess I'm just being paranoid about making sure he gets all of his nutrietnts.


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## Megan Bays (Oct 10, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Neither do I.
> 
> I know that many do so, and will continue to (probably with no problem), but it's not a great idea.
> 
> ...


I've been reading this one as it progresses as well. 

But I'm not wanting feed an entire meal of kibble. But since it would be all through out the day, I'd think that would make pathogens easier to colonize, right?

Connie, you are the nutrional guru; if you think it's do able then I will try my best  !


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Megan McCallister said:


> The pup was weaned from the mother on ground venison. He is about 10 weeks old now.
> 
> His stools were fine when I got him. The first two days at home they were a little soft, but I attributed that to all the stress of coming into a new home. Then they started firming up.
> 
> ...


Oh, you're not being paranoid. Puppies need the right food to grow their bones (and everything else).

I will PM you. Step by step to start a pup over on raw is probably not universally fascinating. :lol:


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## Megan Bays (Oct 10, 2008)

Thank you Connie, you are the best!


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

I will jump in here and comment on Ike, the Malinois puppy that Megan is feeding. 
He was fed ground raw meat (Deer and Beef) starting at 3 weeks old. After a few days his raw food was mixed with a little dry kibble (RedPaw 32K). By the time he was 5 weeks he was eating about a 70% dry kibble mixed with 30% raw deer meat diet. He ate that until the day he left my kennel.
I do this with all of my dogs (about 60 puppies per year, and 100 or so adults per year pass through our kennel) I have never had any problem with mixing raw with dry kibble.


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## Megan Bays (Oct 10, 2008)

mike suttle said:


> I will jump in here and comment on Ike, the Malinois puppy that Megan is feeding.
> He was fed ground raw meat (Deer and Beef) starting at 3 weeks old. After a few days his raw food was mixed with a little dry kibble (RedPaw 32K). By the time he was 5 weeks he was eating about a 70% dry kibble mixed with 30% raw deer meat diet. He ate that until the day he left my kennel.
> I do this with all of my dogs (about 60 puppies per year, and 100 or so adults per year pass through our kennel) I have never had any problem with mixing raw with dry kibble.


 
And like I said before, his poop was perfectly fine. It's just me trying to figure out the best feeding schedule.

Sorry Mike, I thought you kept him on raw for longer didn't mean to get the facts wrong.

I must say any one looking for an excellent puppy should definitely got in contact with Mike. I couldn't be happier with him!

I'd just like to do all raw and see the results of it from a puppy. My two adults have switched on raw and kibble (mainly on raw during hunting season) and I can see the difference when switching with them.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

mike suttle said:


> I will jump in here and comment on Ike, the Malinois puppy that Megan is feeding.
> He was fed ground raw meat (Deer and Beef) starting at 3 weeks old. After a few days his raw food was mixed with a little dry kibble (RedPaw 32K). By the time he was 5 weeks he was eating about a 70% dry kibble mixed with 30% raw deer meat diet. He ate that until the day he left my kennel.
> I do this with all of my dogs (about 60 puppies per year, and 100 or so adults per year pass through our kennel) I have never had any problem with mixing raw with dry kibble.


She told me that he was absolutely fine, Mike. And yes, most people have no problem mixing them.

And mixing them isn't a present problem, either.

In PMs, we concluded (but will double-check everything) that it's a little too much muscle meat to RMB.


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## Terry Fisk (Jul 26, 2007)

We feed TOTW kibble but supplement with raw dehydrated, HK originally, occasional raw meat, vegetables, fruit, etc. Recently we added Addiction raw/dehydrated as I liked the meat sources and consistency when re- hydrated (similar to boiled ground meat). So far we have tried the lamb and venison/brushtail formulas http://www.showandsport.com/addiction.htm and been very happy. Our dogs have not exhibited GI problems from the combination of kibble and raw or raw dehydrated.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Terry Fisk said:


> We feed TOTW kibble but supplement with raw dehydrated, HK originally, occasional raw meat, vegetables, fruit, etc. Recently we added Addiction raw/dehydrated as I liked the meat sources and consistency when re- hydrated (similar to boiled ground meat). So far we have tried the lamb and venison/brushtail formulas http://www.showandsport.com/addiction.htm and been very happy. Our dogs have not exhibited GI problems from the combination of kibble and raw or raw dehydrated.


THK (or any raw dehydrated) has none of the issues of kibble-plus-raw. It can be combined with either raw or with kibble with none of the pathogen-related impact.

And many many people combine kibble and raw. But that's the potentially dangerous combo, despite the fact that it's usually fine. 

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f25/bravo-food-10303/index2.html#post110405



In fact, THK (or similar) with RMBs added is (IMO) a terrific bridge for someone between kibble and raw, say, or someone who needs a traveling food. Or a permanent diet! I even keep it on hand for variety (like a gravy over RMBs) when it seems that I've been a little chicken-centric for a long time.

Addiction is a new one to me. I'll have to read up. Is it similar to THK in price? The texture sounds good.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Alyssa Myracle said:


> Here is my personal experience with one dog. You may take from it what you wish.
> 
> My GSD was fed strictly kibble from weaning until 5 months of age.
> The kibble was a high quality, grain-free kibble that the dog did quite well on.
> ...


Finally I hear something straight from the 1st person, who it has actually happened too. Not that I’m glad that it happened to you but at least I’m sure it happens now. Part of me was starting to think this might be an old wise tail… like when you were young and the old people use to tell you to wait an hour before you go swimming. 

EDIT NOTE: Chris, your own text was embedded in the original quote. I fixed it.


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## Alyssa Myracle (Aug 4, 2008)

Chris, oh yeah, it can happen. I have the $420+ bill to prove it.

I don't know how COMMON it is, but it definitely CAN happen.

When the vet initially told me it was her belief that the colitis was caused by the combo of foods, I didn't believe her. I had never actually heard any first-person stories, and like you, believed it was kind of an old wives tale.
I was convinced that she'd been exposed to some doggie virus of some sort, and that accounted for the illness.

Until it happened a second time.


I went fully raw, and it has never happened again. In fact, she has less gastrointestinal issues period (aka, gas!)


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Why does kibble take so long to digest? I always thought it was due to the grain, but some versions of THK have grains, right? Somebody enlighten me :razz: (or refer me to a thread of enlightenment).


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Konnie Hein said:


> Why does kibble take so long to digest? I always thought it was due to the grain, but some versions of THK have grains, right? Somebody enlighten me :razz: (or refer me to a thread of enlightenment).



The quickie answer:

Long dry-heat cooking and extruding, even if the enzymes naturally present in the food that dogs are designed to eat had not been cooked out, make kibble very hard-baked indeed, with an almost indefinite shelf life. 

Still, it's hard to get around that lack of salivary amylase (digestive enzyme) in dogs. They're designed to ingest the enzymes in the raw (enzymes-still-alive) food.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Alyssa Myracle said:


> Chris, oh yeah, it can happen. I have the $420+ bill to prove it.
> 
> I don't know how COMMON it is, but it definitely CAN happen.
> 
> ...


There have been enough of these threads on Leerburg and other boards to have cured me of any disbelief a long time ago.


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## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

Interesting info. It has me thinking about altering my methods.


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