# Food Aggression



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

I have never had this issue, but was wondering where it starts. Are some dogs more aggressive over the size or type of meal, kibble vs raw?


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## Lalit Dukkipati (May 24, 2011)

Howard Gaines III said:


> I have never had this issue, but was wondering where it starts. Are some dogs more aggressive over the size or type of meal, kibble vs raw?


 Hello Howard,
As per my limited experience with a few dogs , Some dogs are plain food bowl possessive , but can be desensitized out of it . Some dog are only possessive about raw food, especially Bones etc . Fo r these dogs these are high value foods and hence the possessiveness .

If this problem , in my opinion is identified during puppy stage , this behavior can be modified , by feeding the dog by hand and eventually desenstize the dog , that there is nothing to be posssesive about the food and it won't be snatched away from him . It takes time though to desensitize a dog like this . Behavor modification takes time , especially strongly motivated behaviors . Once you figure out the source of this aggression in the dog's mind , the solution will present itself to you and the rest is our skill, patience and knowledge .

Regards,
Lalit


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Howard Gaines III said:


> I have never had this issue, but was wondering where it starts. Are some dogs more aggressive over the size or type of meal, kibble vs raw?


I've never given it a thought to be honest? Some dog are food agressive from pup and some get raised into becoming food agressive due to owner actions during feeding.

I don't have much problem with a dog being food agressive, its his food, i put it on the floor and walk away, he's not allowed to touch it until I tell him so and there ends the problem. I always feed them away from us, so they have time to eat, don't feel the need to gobble it up like idiots, and don't get bothered by anything or anyone. I don't see the need to stay there and wait for the dog to finish his food. 

Food agression does not have to be a problem but some people are hellbent on making it one. 

I hear stories about how the feeding of a dog is an issue due to having kids or feeding it in a general area where everyone has access to it and I think to myself "Why make it so hard on yourself when it doesn't have to be" Why this incesant need to control each and every aspect of your dogs life and behaviour?" Feed it in a side room or its kennel, where no one has access to it and leave it be!

The only thing that I do not allow is the dog guarding the bowl when its empty or when I place it on the floor. I say when you eat, you do not decide for yourself. I have had a dog that would lunge for the bowl and not wait for me to tell him to eat, he did so once, a metal bowl is a great thing when it makes contact with the dogs head, it might dent but it leaves a lasting impression on the dog to not lunge for the bowl again.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Saw it on Cesar's show last night...YIPES! Never, ever have I had a dog or puppy showcase this type of behavior. Some topics just pop into my thinking...:x


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

I've encountered it several times, in adopted dogs.

I never really know whether it was a reason for surrender or maybe even surfaced or worsened in the shelter atmosphere (where unfortunately the big fake hand in the food dish still exists), but just as Lalit posted, I haven't seen it resist those spelled-out patient steps, starting with "Your food is safe once I give it to you."


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Alice and Lalit, I really like what you guys had to say. So +1.5 for you guys, well done!! 

Dang, I've really gotten the hang of this +/- system of communication. It's kind of fun. I'm going to add a new one into the mix it's called the = 0 (Word, yo). Being left handed is awesome. It allows people that are naturally weird in the mind to blame it on the creative aspect of their lefthandedness. Perfect.


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## Mark Sheplak (Oct 28, 2011)

Some folks praise this aggression and refer to it as "Food Drive"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=il2_SHS9B7Y

I don't understand what he is trying to do here. I am sure there has to be some logic behind it. Certainly not something that I would do or would want to do with my dogs.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Mark Sheplak said:


> Some folks praise this aggression and refer to it as "Food Drive"
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=il2_SHS9B7Y
> 
> I don't understand what he is trying to do here. I am sure there has to be some logic behind it. Certainly not something that I would do or would want to do with my dogs.



If you ever find out the logic than feel free to share it with the rest of us! 

I watched the video, a few times even. This guy is supposed to actually be someone in the dog training world? I've heard of Tiekerhook but never of him... Looks like I missed sweet **** all!

Let me find the right word to express myself ... ****wit! What a total ****wit he must be to come up with twatwaffle like this. *insert lots of rolling eyes here*


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=il2_SHS9B7Y
"......I don't understand what he is trying to do here. I am sure there has to be some logic behind it......."

why do you say that ?

this youtube channel had a bunch of videos so i figured i'd watch some more ... the very next vid (Hyro) listed was also about food aggression, but with exactly the opposite approach and training "style" ... ??

don't have a clue if it was the same person, and three years apart, but it was on the same channel 

anyone who trains this way and can explain the logic please do !


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## Mark Sheplak (Oct 28, 2011)

rick smith said:


> re: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=il2_SHS9B7Y
> "......I don't understand what he is trying to do here. I am sure there has to be some logic behind it......."
> 
> why do you say that ?
> ...


I am going to go out on a limb and state that Koos Hassing is doing this for a purpose. I just don't know what it is. Perhaps Stefan can comment.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

imagine the next step putting the food in the box..then you would get the dominant possessive barking response in the box search...


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

will fernandez said:


> imagine the next step putting the food in the box..then you would get the dominant possessive barking response in the box search...


That should have been the first step, not the second. (assuming that would be the purpose to begin with, plus the purpose would not be to eat the food but to guard it, it would get the food as a reward after a job well done and thats not what I am seeing here.)


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

I was wondering when then the Tiekerhook video was going to pop up.

Every dog I ever owned has eaten kibble at some point in their life as well as some canned some raw meat...not all in one meal...but I never had their temperment change...they did not suddenly get aggressive because I fed some beef to them no...never happened here.


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

Alice Bezemer said:


> If you ever find out the logic than feel free to share it with the rest of us!
> 
> I watched the video, a few times even. This guy is supposed to actually be someone in the dog training world? I've heard of Tiekerhook but never of him... Looks like I missed sweet **** all!
> 
> Let me find the right word to express myself ... ****wit! What a total ****wit he must be to come up with twatwaffle like this. *insert lots of rolling eyes here*


Alice your my new idol


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

Mark Sheplak said:


> Some folks praise this aggression and refer to it as "Food Drive"
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=il2_SHS9B7Y
> 
> I don't understand what he is trying to do here. I am sure there has to be some logic behind it. Certainly not something that I would do or would want to do with my dogs.


i can't help myself im going to go try this , curious how my dog will react. be back soon.............


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Mark Sheplak said:


> Some folks praise this aggression and refer to it as "Food Drive"
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=il2_SHS9B7Y
> 
> I don't understand what he is trying to do here. I am sure there has to be some logic behind it. Certainly not something that I would do or would want to do with my dogs.


looks like he was trying to make a video to show aggressive food guarding, not sure what else though


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Why would food aggression be a selling point when many know working dogs go largely to pet homes or homes that aren't true workers....?

This is nothing more than a major accident waiting to happen. The reason I have never had it nor want a dog showing it.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I kid you not Howard, I know a girl that was talking about how bas ass tiekerhook dogs are, which maybe some are for sure, but that wasnt the point.

she showed me this video to look at .


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I kid you not Howard, I know a girl that was talking about how bas ass tiekerhook dogs are, which maybe some are for sure, but that wasnt the point.

she showed me this video to look at . 

the link provided is actually a timothy helser repost, baggin on Koos for doing this in the video.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Alice Bezemer said:


> That should have been the first step, not the second. (assuming that would be the purpose to begin with, plus the purpose would not be to eat the food but to guard it, it would get the food as a reward after a job well done and thats not what I am seeing here.)


just trying to find some reason in the chaos


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

will fernandez said:


> just trying to find some reason in the chaos


You and me both!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I've never had food aggression in any of my dogs. There are and always were rules about dogs and food but kids are kids and dogs are dog so I work from the time they are pups. 
All my dogs have viewed kids walking towards their food bowls as providers. 
Of course that will never mean the kids have free access to the dogs while they eat. It's just another built in safety. It works for "me and my family"!


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ihXq_WwiWM


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

imagine if it was a strong working dog, that hand would have been gone...........


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## Alex Scott (Jun 16, 2013)

This subject came up before on another dog forum I am a member of. This is what Hans @ AlpineK9 had to say and I completely agree, its a test.

"I think this that this video is is misunderstood and misjudged here and on YouTube too. First of all this is not a training, but a demonstration of the possessiveness of the prey. Possessiveness of the prey is important instinct in an evaluation of the dog. It is a part of the survival instinct and from that instinct can be estimated other important characteristics of other drives - mainly their intensity. I am talking specifically about prey drive, defense drive and fight drive. In Czech for similar purposes we also evaluate "žravost" voraciousness of eating of the pups. 
Again I will emphasize importance of the versatility of the breed where the possessiveness is important in illustration of intensity of other drives, but this level of this instinct indicates extreme levels of other instincts And we must remember that GSD must not be extreme dog - (except it should be extremally versatile. ) I would also say that these dogs were also very hungry which increased the intensity of their actions."






_Mod note: Text is from alpinek9forums_


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Email them or call them thats the easiest way to find out what its all about.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

quoted : "I think this that this video is is misunderstood"
...maybe maybe not 

now we get a Czech interpretation of :
it's a possessiveness of prey test //lol//
using SURVIVAL INSTINCT to determine potential "intensity" of prey drive, defense drive and fight drive //rotflmao
... who wants NOT an Extreme gsd, but a "versatile" one 

quoted : "I would also say that these dogs were also very hungry which increased the intensity of their actions."
...maybe maybe not 
plus i'd like to know how you could tell how hungry a dog was by looking at it in a video clip ???

i have known and SEEN a LOT of dogs who will do this five minutes after finishing a decent meal and none were what i would call "intense" or "extreme" dogs and hunger had NOTHING to do with their behavior :-(

so now we have another interpretation ...

BFD .... my Q is the same :
who out there "trains" or "tests" by provoking and stimulating food aggression ??
.... and specifically HOW are you using this in your training program ??

and btw, how come we never got Michael's report after he tried it out on his dog ???
...last post was "be right back" //lol//

if we are gonna have a decent discussion, lets make it on how you are training and testing, not judging vids of dogs growling over their food bowl ](*,)


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

I know you're new, Alex.

Please don't copy text here from any other forum.

Thank you.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

And back to the thread:


rick smith said:


> quoted : "I think this that this video is is misunderstood"
> ...maybe maybe not
> 
> now we get a Czech interpretation of :
> ...


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

btw, Alex, i am not dissing the Czechs or Czech GSD's, plus i have only known one Czech bred GSD in 65 yrs 

but since you totally agree that using food aggression for testing and/or training is a good thing, please explain why you do, and give examples of how you do it
- i would be glad to list why i feel otherwise, but most of my reasons would probably not be a surprise to most people
- but training or testing with food aggression is a technique i have never heard explained or demonstrated

TIA


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## Alex Scott (Jun 16, 2013)

rick smith said:


> quoted :
> ... who wants NOT an Extreme gsd, but a "versatile" one
> ](*,)


Maybe you are not familiar with Koos's dogs. Tiekerhook breed for extreme dogs and he gets want he wants!


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## Alex Scott (Jun 16, 2013)

rick smith said:


> btw, Alex, i am not dissing the Czechs or Czech GSD's, plus i have only known one Czech bred GSD in 65 yrs
> 
> but since you totally agree that using food aggression for testing and/or training is a good thing, please explain why you do, and give examples of how you do it
> - i would be glad to list why i feel otherwise, but most of my reasons would probably not be a surprise to most people
> ...


Okay, my post has been taken a little out of context, remember these are purpose bred extreme dogs. The perspective that I have is that prey drive is a predatory instinct inherited from the grey wolf. The instinct is there to ensure that the animal gets fed. Basically, we humans use this instinct in training to get the dog to do what we want by honing this instinct but in the wild the instinct gets directed in a completely different way. Regardless of how a dog or wolfs prey drive is targeted and developed, the primal instinct doesn't change. Therefore an animal with an extremely strong genetic prey drive will show extreme prey behavior such as extreme possessiveness which is what the video shows. 

He knows how extreme and intense his dogs survival instincts are but a lot of the working dog community don't and for the enthusiasts have no intention of going to Holland anytime soon watch this video and can see the intensity of the prey drive though possessiveness. I would have shown their intensity though different avenues but I am not Koos.


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Alex Scott said:


> Maybe you are not familiar with Koos's dogs. Tiekerhook breed for extreme dogs and he gets want he wants!


 
Is that so? Have you owned one? Seen/worked a few in person? 

I have and have been waiting to see all those extreme dogs being produced on a regular basis...lol


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

rick smith said:


> quoted : "I think this that this video is is misunderstood"
> ...maybe maybe not
> 
> now we get a Czech interpretation of :
> ...


i just think that "test" for possessiveness of food would just give more information on the overall personality of the dog, even if it has nothing to do with any other traits that are required for a working dog like prey drive, fight, dominance etc. some of us a more curious about who our dogs are in every ascpect not just in relation to work.

yea i cant just to the test with my dog with his usual food , he doesnt really care. i could put my hand in his bowl or push him like in the video and he dont give f#$k all.... but when it comes to a whole raw chicken he does like to carry it off and if i come close he picks it up and moves somewhere else, . so im planning on tieing him up , and then see if i cant tease him a bit . been busy tho


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

Tiago Fontes said:


> Is that so? Have you owned one? Seen/worked a few in person?
> 
> I have and have been waiting to see all those extreme dogs being produced on a regular basis...lol


there was a dog called kuran tierhook in australia, produced a few well known dogs here. a lot of people down under say those lines are pretty agressive. havent seen any of the dogs personally tho


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Mark Sheplak said:


> Some folks praise this aggression and refer to it as "Food Drive"
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=il2_SHS9B7Y
> 
> I don't understand what he is trying to do here. I am sure there has to be some logic behind it. Certainly not something that I would do or would want to do with my dogs.


Harrassing a dog around it's food bowl while he eats, will give you the same amount of "Food Drive"... Throw some flanking and voilà, you have "high food drive". 

I'm sorry, but, IMO, that video shows nothing other than a dog which has been harrassed to behave in a certain way around its food bowl. 

Sad to see such conflict being confused with power.


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Michael Murphy said:


> there was a dog called kuran tierhook in australia, produced a few well known dogs here. a lot of people down under say those lines are pretty agressive. havent seen any of the dogs personally tho


 
I have read about that dog, but have never seen anything from him or off of him. Therefore, I cannot say anything about him, other than parroting what someone wrote about him. 

My personal experience with Tiekerhook is bad. I'm still waiting for him to replace what I purchased.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Michael Murphy said:


> i just think that "test" for possessiveness of food would just give more information on the overall personality of the dog, even if it has nothing to do with any other traits that are required for a working dog like prey drive, fight, dominance etc. some of us a more curious about who our dogs are in every ascpect not just in relation to work.
> 
> yea i cant just to the test with my dog with his usual food , he doesnt really care. i could put my hand in his bowl or push him like in the video and he dont give f#$k all.... but when it comes to a whole raw chicken he does like to carry it off and if i come close he picks it up and moves somewhere else, . * so im planning on tieing him up , and then see if i cant tease him a bit . been busy tho*


For what reason? What do you think to achieve with doing this?


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Alex Scott said:


> Okay, my post has been taken a little out of context, remember these are purpose bred extreme dogs. The perspective that I have is that prey drive is a predatory instinct inherited from the grey wolf. The instinct is there to ensure that the animal gets fed. Basically, we humans use this instinct in training to get the dog to do what we want by honing this instinct but in the wild the instinct gets directed in a completely different way. Regardless of how a dog or wolfs prey drive is targeted and developed, the primal instinct doesn't change. *Therefore an animal with an extremely strong genetic prey drive will show extreme prey behavior such as extreme possessiveness which is what the video shows. *
> 
> He knows how extreme and intense his dogs survival instincts are but a lot of the working dog community don't and for the enthusiasts have no intention of going to Holland anytime soon watch this video and can see the intensity of the prey drive though possessiveness. I would have shown their intensity though different avenues but I am not Koos.


What that video showed was nothing more then an owner being a pain in the dogs ass. It had nothing to do with creating drive or anything of the sort... It looked spectacular and snarly and its a great ****ing way to give your dog a stommach torsion/bloat. And before you go there.. I am in holland and trust me, i've seen it all and then some! This was not intensity or building anything... this was "Look how bad my dog gets!" 

[-(


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Well, I like that my dog doesn't feel threatened with my presence while he's eating. I love the fact that I can tell him to stop eating and he does... I like that I can remove something that could present a problem for him, while he is eating. 

Although, I am not Michael and certainly cannot answer on his behalf, in all good honesty, I don't see anything good coming from creating such conflict. 

In all honesty, I see some kid messing with things he shouldn't be and might not be prepared to deal with subsequent consequences of such actions. 


Regards


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Alice Bezemer said:


> What that video showed was nothing more then an owner being a pain in the dogs ass. It had nothing to do with creating drive or anything of the sort... It looked spectacular and snarly and its a great ****ing way to give your dog a stommach torsion/bloat. And before you go there.. I am in holland and trust me, i've seen it all and then some! This was not intensity or building anything... this was "Look how bad my dog gets!"
> 
> [-(


 
Alice, 

Hype tends to blind fold people... Since you're in Holland and involved with KNPV, could you please tell me if you have seen any extreme Tiekerhook dogs being trained in that program or SchH? 

I know you are not a fan of GSD's, but an extreme dog is an extreme dog, regardless of its breed... I thought that perhaps you might have seen one or two out of that kennel...lol


Thank you


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## Alex Scott (Jun 16, 2013)

Tiago Fontes said:


> Well, I like that my dog doesn't feel threatened with my presence while he's eating. I love the fact that I can tell him to stop eating and he does... I like that I can remove something that could present a problem for him, while he is eating.


You speak the truth, not going to try it on my dog for the reasons you stated. I wouldn't want my dog to learn any negative behaviors such as handler aggression but nevertheless one should view this video as a test to intrigue potential buyers not common practice at feeding time. Its ridiculous that everyone blow questionable scenarios way out of proportion. There are so many ways to train dogs and because most will work we are left to pick and choose what we like/agree with, this leads people viewing methods as either good or bad instead of trying to see positives and negatives of each method. All training and breeding there are compromises that have to be made. He is messing with his dog while he is eating his food to make a video which is his right legally and morally.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Tiago Fontes said:


> Alice,
> 
> Hype tends to blind fold people... Since you're in Holland and involved with KNPV, could you please tell me if you have seen any extreme Tiekerhook dogs being trained in that program or SchH?
> 
> ...


Could be that I've seen some, there are die hard GSD people on our club but to be honest I never asked them about their GSD bloodline because, as you noticed, GSD just doesn't have my interest


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Alex Scott said:


> You speak the truth, not going to try it on my dog for the reasons you stated. I wouldn't want my dog to learn any negative behaviors such as handler aggression but nevertheless one should view this video as a test to intrigue potential buyers not common practice at feeding time. Its ridiculous that everyone blow questionable scenarios way out of proportion. There are so many ways to train dogs and because most will work we are left to pick and choose what we like/agree with, this leads people viewing methods as either good or bad instead of trying to see positives and negatives of each method. All training and breeding there are compromises that have to be made. He is messing with his dog while he is eating his food to make a video which is his right legally and morally.


Its his right to do so, legally and morally. And the moment it finds it's way onto a public forum like YouTube it's other people's moral and legal right to respond to what they see in front of them.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Michael Murphy said:


> i just think that "test" for possessiveness of food would just give more information on the overall personality of the dog, even if it has nothing to do with any other traits that are required for a working dog like prey drive, fight, dominance etc. some of us a more curious about who our dogs are in every ascpect not just in relation to work.


What is it that you feel this test will show you about your own dog, or any other for that matter? There are some things that once you cross that line you wish you hadn't because you can't take it back once you've done it or gone there. Let's use trust as an analogy. I think we've all been there a time or two, maybe even more. Once it's been fractured, regardless of why, nothing is ever the same. This test that you feel may provide you with information you may desire, may in fact cost you far more than you get in return from pursuing it.


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

Tiago Fontes said:


> Well, I like that my dog doesn't feel threatened with my presence while he's eating. I love the fact that I can tell him to stop eating and he does... I like that I can remove something that could present a problem for him, while he is eating.
> 
> Although, I am not Michael and certainly cannot answer on his behalf, in all good honesty, I don't see anything good coming from creating such conflict.
> 
> ...


im not going to do whats happening in that video, and im not stupid enough to push and annoy my dog like that. just more curious about what he would do if he could not walk away with the chicken. as in if he would growl etc knowing my dog and the relationship i have with him, he most likely wont do any of that, my guess is we will end up in a little tug competition for the chicken lol


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Tiago Fontes said:


> Harrassing a dog around it's food bowl while he eats, will give you the same amount of "Food Drive"... Throw some flanking and voilà, you have "high food drive".
> 
> I'm sorry, but, IMO,* that video shows nothing other than a dog which has been harrassed to behave in a certain way around its food bowl.
> 
> Sad to see such conflict being confused with power.*



It is sad indeed. And sad to see such crap viewed as some kind of "test."

I sure do hope that such a display doesn't intrigue any inexperienced poster here to try it, because Nicole is right that _"you can't take it back once you've done it ... "_

JMO, of course.


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Could be that I've seen some, there are die hard GSD people on our club but to be honest I never asked them about their GSD bloodline because, as you noticed, GSD just doesn't have my interest


 
Ok. Fair enough.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

I was always under the impression the Dutch like to fire their dogs up more so then say the Germans. Its a culture thing...Look at the KNPV they like over the top driven dogs.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

That's a good point. I'm probably Dutch but just in the closet about it.  I mean who doesn't like an over the top, driven "dog" :twisted:


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Ben Thompson said:


> I was always under the impression the Dutch like to fire their dogs up more so then say the Germans. Its a culture thing...Look at the KNPV they like over the top driven dogs.


Maybe it is a sport thing? Germans don't do KNPV. So maybe Dutch trainers need over the top dogs for their sport?

Apples to apples would be comparing the dogs in the same sport. Do Dutch IPO trainers like their dogs more over the top than German IPO trainers? 

Or maybe one nationality trains smarter than the other?

Then their is the possibility that not everyone trains the same even if they live in the same country or do the same sport.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> ... Then their is the possibility that not everyone trains the same even if they live in the same country or do the same sport.



NO! I can't believe this! 

Even IN THE SAME COUNTRY?!


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Connie Sutherland said:


> NO! I can't believe this!
> 
> Even IN THE SAME COUNTRY?!


ha ha, Chris gave a really good answer but I like mine better ;-)


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Nicole Stark said:


> ha ha, Chris gave a really good answer but I like mine better ;-)


OK, then .... IN THE SAME CLOSET!?


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Well now that you put it that way, I don't like that part of the answer as much. The closet Dutch with my naughty tick at the end flowed way better in my mind.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Nicole Stark said:


> ha ha, Chris gave a really good answer but I like mine better ;-)


I gave no answers, just possibilities and questions.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> I gave no answers, just possibilities and questions.


And this, is, really, life...


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> Maybe it is a sport thing? Germans don't do KNPV. So maybe Dutch trainers need over the top dogs for their sport?
> 
> Apples to apples would be comparing the dogs in the same sport. Do Dutch IPO trainers like their dogs more over the top than German IPO trainers?
> 
> ...


 
There is so many different jobs for a dog I can't say one way is better then another or one country is better then another. Sure culture can have a big influence on kennels and training methods. Some dogs are bred and trained to gather points in IPO some people just want to title the dog and then move the dog into a different job.


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Actually, I know of a KNPV person which does not like to make the dogs crazy for the work... He wants to see the dog bringing it to the decoy with low stimulation and being able to maintain drive through the session, without the need for whips, table training, etc. 

I remember sending him a video where I was testing a young dog on the sleeve and cracking the whip in the process. He basically asked "Why the whip?" Now, I know, and have since started to appreciate this approach on dog training, for it really produces a different end result both in training and as a selection tool. 

You only need to make a dog crazy, when its drives aren't pronounced enough. 

Regards


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