# Training style overseas



## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Do you find that European trainers especially from Germany tend to be more strict and critical of their students then American trainers are toward their students?


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

You talking about the coaching/mentoring of people teaching people how to train dogs? Or people toward dogs?

What is defined as strict? Higher standards? Expecting more time spent with their dogs? Corporal punishment for not being 'up to standard'?


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Jackie Lockard said:


> You talking about the coaching/mentoring of people teaching people how to train dogs? Or people toward dogs?
> 
> What is defined as strict? Higher standards? Expecting more time spent with their dogs? Corporal punishment for not being 'up to standard'?


Trainers toward people they are training, not trainers toward dogs. You know they just complain alot you can't get 10 feet without them screaming about something.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

There are not enough hearing aids to go around over here....


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Gillian Schuler said:


> There are not enough hearing aids to go around over here....


 That must be it.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Gillian Schuler said:


> There are not enough hearing aids to go around over here....


do the training directors contribute to the hearing loss though?


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Ben Thompson said:


> Do you find that European trainers especially from Germany tend to be more strict and critical of their students then American trainers are toward their students?


I don't know about that. Although one of my employees is from Germany and attributes her strict attention to detail and critical views to her being German.

I find the difference as you describe it in a teaching capacity (strict and critical) generally comes down to poor leadership and communication skills. You can be strict and critical but that's generally not an effective way to mentor people.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Careful as some accents and cultures can come across as something they were not intending. Germans sound more strict and angry to some other cultures often when they dont intend it.

Just saying dont lose the intended message cos you dont like the wrapping it came in.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Careful as some accents and cultures can come across as something they were not intending. Germans sound more strict and angry to some other cultures often when they dont intend it.

Just saying dont lose the intended message cos you dont like the wrapping it came in.


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

I look for critical and strict mentors, in whatever I do. Pushovers don't make the best of their students. But there's an art to knowing when to encourage and 'punish' students.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Sure there's strict as in expecting discipline and commitment from the student. Critical as in honest and guiding in their direction and goal setting. Then there is the other side of the coin, which is what I was speaking of. Those who seemingly bitch and complain about everything, are unclear in their expectations, give inconsistent feedback, terse, abrupt, rude, etc. I've observed both. 

I, and I think most people, respond better to serious, well guided, and engaged leadership. Not the latter which is what it sounded like Ben was referring to.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Having been a shop steward and shop supervisor in the past I find cussing loudly and throwing stuff works best. It cuts way down on people comming to you with complaints anyway.


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

Nicole Stark said:


> Sure there's strict as in expecting discipline and commitment from the student.  Critical as in honest and guiding in their direction and goal setting. Then there is the other side of the coin, which is what I was speaking of. Those who seemingly bitch and complain about everything, are unclear in their expectations, give inconsistent feedback, terse, abrupt, rude, etc. I've observed both.
> 
> I, and I think most people, respond better to serious, well guided, and engaged leadership. Not the latter which is what it sounded like Ben was referring to.


Yep I've had both ends of the spectrum in trainers. There certainly is a huge difference. TBH I and most of the other people that trained with the kind of guy you're talking about felt LESS STRESS trialing under a real judge for a real title than just a training session with that guy.


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

There is a cultural difference to begin with.... 
but a good trainer askes a lot of you and asks you to be precise. My first trainer ,she was very strikt and critizised alot. But in a constructive way. It was not yelling or screaming it was asking more of us and to be more precize. The one that helps me now occationally, asks the same.
But I do beleive this is pation. Pation for seeing the students do good or even better then the trainer.... I appreciate a trainer that asks a lot of me, is very strict and critizises- cause this keeps me striving for more...

i rather have a strict one that is able to critizise then one that butters me up and tells me how good i am doing....


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Nicole Stark said:


> Sure there's strict as in expecting discipline and commitment from the student. Critical as in honest and guiding in their direction and goal setting. Then there is the other side of the coin, which is what I was speaking of. Those who seemingly bitch and complain about everything, are unclear in their expectations, give inconsistent feedback, terse, abrupt, rude, etc. I've observed both.
> 
> I, and I think most people, respond better to serious, well guided, and engaged leadership. Not the latter which is what it sounded like Ben was referring to.


 Yes that is exactly what I was referring too. I don't function well under that kind of attitude. I've got the bite work part down great but the obedience me and the instructor bump heads. It might not work out. Your saying its not so much a cultural thing as more of a personality flaw?


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Ben Thompson said:


> Yes that is exactly what I was referring too. I don't function well under that kind of attitude. I've got the bite work part down great but the obedience me and the instructor bump heads. It might not work out. Your saying its not so much a cultural thing as more of a personality flaw?


Hard to say but I do know that it's often not what you say but how you say it that dictates whether or not you're going to get heard. Heck, there's plenty of Americans that are assholes to others for no particular reason so I am not sure this is culturally driven in your case. I guess I just mean you don't have to be from Germany to come off like a prick to someone.

I don't know if you've done this before but consider videoing your OB work under his guidance and watch it later. See if what he's saying has merit. He might be triggering you without you realizing it and if you see it from a different perspective you might realize that he simply is trying to get the best out of you and your dog.

I am hardest on those I respect and value the most (personally and professionally). The fact that you are getting interaction and guidance from your TD may carry a lot more value than you realize. Put some thought into what I am saying and you might find that the source of the conflict may not actually be coming from him. Frankly, it may be extended as a compliment to yours or the dogs potential without you even realizing it.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Nicole Stark said:


> Hard to say but I do know that it's often not what you say but how you say it that dictates whether or not you're going to get heard. Heck, there's plenty of Americans that are assholes to others for no particular reason so I am not sure this is culturally driven in your case. I guess I just mean you don't have to be from Germany to come off like a prick to someone.
> 
> I don't know if you've done this before but consider videoing your OB work under his guidance and watch it later. See if what he's saying has merit. He might be triggering you without you realizing it and if you see it from a different perspective you might realize that he simply is trying to get the best out of you and your dog.
> 
> I am hardest on those I respect and value the most (personally and professionally). The fact that you are getting interaction and guidance from your TD may carry a lot more value than you realize. Put some thought into what I am saying and you might find that the source of the conflict may not actually be coming from him. Frankly, it may be extended as a compliment to yours or the dogs potential without you even realizing it.


 I will try the video tape thing and watch it a couple of times to get a more accurate perspective. That should help.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

there can be differences in training style and techniques, i think it's mostly about personality no matter what country. often i can be showing a person how stupid the way they are working with their dog is, and they will laff but still get the point. to me if the work isn't kept fun, it shouldn't be done, no matter how hard the work is.

as long as they are listening and trying, i'm fine, and about the only time i get mad is when i start out a session and have them show me what they were supposed to have been practicing on their own. if it is obvious they haven't done ANY practice, i do get upset, and if they then go to the excuses, i often get pissed. actually that's my way to see if they really want to train or not. in this country there is often a problem that way. Japanese customers would rather someone train their dog and bring it back "perfect" :-(

they just don't accept the concept that the owner is the ultimate trainer of the dog

i don't think it's like that so much in the states, but i do see a lot of video clips where the handler, whom i always assume is the owner, looks like they are basically doing nothing and learning little or nothing in the session

for me, the best trainers i see are the ones who don't have to handle the dog that much when they teach


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> do the training directors contribute to the hearing loss though?


Yeah, my eardrums have never been the same since!!


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Ben
-- maybe because germans feel they know more about german shepherds and protection in general than anyone else, as if it was their birth right and the home of protection training, and are therefore more demanding and less compromising than any other race of dog trainers etc etc ? 

seriously, and maybe i'm stupid for asking what the heck exactly was your problem Ben and why try to see if it is a "german" thing rather than just a problem you've had ? kinda like asking what other problems have others had with other german trainers ... who really cares and how would it really matter to you ?
...we ALL know trainers never see the same things and never agree ... german or otherwise //lol//

guess i'm just not seeing this thread and sorry if i started to turn it into a how do you measure a good trainer spinoff
,,,but what you wrote pretty much makes it a "racial" thread .... which i guess doesn't necessarily make it "bad" either


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I can say that I have been around a few trainers.

New York Trainers, Indiana Trainers, West Virginia trainers, Illinois Trainers, Ohio trainers, Texas trainers, Gerogia trainers, Virginia trainers, Kentucky Trainers, Isreali trainers, Pennsylvania Trainers, New Jersey trainers, California Trainers, Michigan Trainers, German Trainers, Black trainers, White Trainers, Brown Trainers, and some of those guys were dicks for sure...


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Before we even try to compare European dog training with “over the pond” methods, I think one has to understand the working life of the Swiss or German people (I guess most Germanic states are similar).

When I arrived here from England, I had the shock of my life – from working times at a Solictors in Manchester which started at 09.15 hrs with one hour for lunch and finishing at 16.30 pm, I had to be at work at 07.15 with 2 hours lunch and I finished about 17.30 pm. Germany may have similar hours.

Germans and Swiss are never as lax in their thinking (in general) as the English and so it is with dog training.

I lived through one of the (for me) most ideal training sessions – start (punctually at 7 pm.) 

One dog and handler in the “ring”, the other handlers “looking on” – their dogs in a row in “down”. Younger dogs accompanied by their handlers, who could also watch what was happening.

Each exercise, heeling, dumbbell bringing, etc. was carried out with each dog separately and each dog was “put away” after each exercise – to ensure that no negative experiences were carried over from one exercise to the other.

The last exercise was the “Voran” then the dogs were put in their kennels or car kennels and we retired to the “Hütte” (clubhouse) where our Trainer ran through each dog, giving praise or criticism (with solutions).

Tracking was done on a Sunday with each of us following each dog and “our trainer” who gave us a running commentary on how the dog was doing.

It wasn’t all “serious”. We had many a good laugh.

And, oh! yes IPO tracking is evaluated the same way as “FH”. The distances are further in FH but the experienced judges can evaluate a dog on a shorter track whether it can track or not. Superficial comments such as “Schutzhund Tracking” is obedience tracking is ridiculous as both demand that the dog can correct itself *without leaving the track and has to show intense tracking.*

One cannot force a dog to track that has no drive or will to do do. If it has the drive and will, one can "force" it to keep on the track. There is no reason for it to leave it (unless it sniffs out deer or fox tracks) 

That FH is longer is a question of stamina, not of better tracking.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Sorry, forgot about the shouting!

The thing is, there is a lot of emotion in training - if your trainer thinks you have a possibility to go further, he will push you and if you disappoint him occasionally, he might show some wrath. 

I have noticed before on this forum when we were discussing trainers and helpers that many do not take kindly to being "hauled over" by their trainers. I can take the "abuse" because if I have been lacking I deserve it. The competition is strong and to face it you need a tough skin.

*Very often we are thankful to be taken seriously by a competent trainer.*

It's similar to football. To play with the best, you have to do some homework!!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Well said Gillian!
I think most of us have all had trainers like that (hopefully). 
One of the trainers I looked up to the most was a little gal that wasn't 5ft high and mean as a junk yard dog. She could chew you out with the best of them but she was fair and would also listen to your opinion without shutting you down cause her way was the only way!
The problem comes when the trainer talks down to, insult and scream and holler out of ego, frustration, the "need" to be in control, and doesn't allow the individulas to offer input or even think for themselves. I think most of us have probably had a share of that also. :wink:


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## eric squires (Oct 16, 2008)

I train with Germans and i have not found that they shout or are overly critical. I have found them to be the opposite in fact. Sounds to me to be a personality thing wiht the person you are talking about.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

rick smith said:


> Ben
> -- maybe because germans feel they know more about german shepherds and protection in general than anyone else, as if it was their birth right and the home of protection training, and are therefore more demanding and less compromising than any other race of dog trainers etc etc ?
> 
> seriously, and maybe i'm stupid for asking what the heck exactly was your problem Ben and why try to see if it is a "german" thing rather than just a problem you've had ? kinda like asking what other problems have others had with other german trainers ... who really cares and how would it really matter to you ?
> ...


 I never mentioned race I was talking about culture. I needed to know if my trainers behavior was European or if I was doing something really wrong to cause them to get so moody all the time.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Ben Thompson said:


> I never mentioned race I was talking about culture. I needed to know if my trainers behavior was European or if I was doing something really wrong to cause them to get so moody all the time.


Ben, have you ever seen a moody American trainer?? 

How many European trainers have you worked with to form this opinion.

I honestly dont think it can be attributed to the entire culture. I think it is more of an individual thing?


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Sorry, forgot about the shouting!
> 
> The thing is, there is a lot of emotion in training - if your trainer thinks you have a possibility to go further, he will push you and if you disappoint him occasionally, he might show some wrath.
> 
> ...


Exactly.8)

I sure don't think it's an overseas vs united states thing since this is the style of all my coaches/mentors.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

My only real experience was in 1966 when I went to dog school in Weisbaden. My instructor was a former soldier for the 3 Riech. He did not like Americans and made that feeling obvious. He did however, state he liked anyone that worked with dogs. He was very methodical, made very little allowance for mistakes. He always said that regardless of the situation, a dog should not be allowed to disobey. It taught the dog he could do that if he wanted too. He was a stickler for positioning and attention to detail. He said, sloppy training produces a sloppy dog.

I have been told on more than one occasion, by more than one student, I tend to be a prick. I believe it.

DFrost


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

My first flight instructor was a former Luftwaffe pilot. Which is probably why I never got my pilots license 
Never could figure out why he moved to the USA if he didn't like 
Americans? Of course he didn't seem to like anyone.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

rick smith said:


> Ben
> -- maybe because germans feel they know more about german shepherds and protection in general than anyone else, as if it was their birth right and the home of protection training, and are therefore more demanding and less compromising than any other race of dog trainers etc etc ?


That I doubt!!

Germans work hard and play hard. Their forums are usually far more serious in nature than on here is mostly the case. Their main prerogative is to ask for and give advice which is usually kindly given and gratefully accepted.

They are not better than any other nation nor are they worse. Once they start in dog training they want to get the best out of the dog they can and this does not include bitchy or silly conversations about other members. Obviously there is some beefing about something or other but it is much less than on this forum.

Shall I resign :lol:


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Shall I resign :lol:


yes you should


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

I cannot speak for all Germans, but the dogworld or horseworld I percieved, is always a little more serious. If - and i will includemyself in it- we want to do something we want to do it right. and this does starts in the so called" pet homes". We have a tremendously bigger amount of different dog clubs so one always finds a fun activity to do. More variety. But for most of them it does not end up in competition... but neverthe less the standards don't get lowered.
A BH is not a first step for Schutzhund. A BH is what it is supposed to be. Training your dog to accompany you. And tons more people do it, just because it gives them something to work forward to and have an activity with their dog. I used to train for German Tounament dog sport ( Tunierhundesport)- kinda athletics for human and dogs. Was a blast. Did i want to compete...not really. I did a couple of times but i wouldn't want to make it a carrear. and a lot of them just go out and do different things. Just like this. No ribbons or titles in mind.
and we want to be correct in what we do.
It is true we work hard and we play hard, but even our play is hard work...LOL
We have a tendency to be looking more at details and precition. We have our order in things and we like it this way. *g*:lol:


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Shall I resign :lol:


Don't you dare!!!!!! :lol:


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## Travis Ragin (Apr 10, 2010)

http://youtu.be/zVWI5sGAkLU

http://youtu.be/w51xjT287I8

6 mos. pup
http://youtu.be/yYCIrVGV5FA




http://youtu.be/rHn9bPRtjYM
http://youtu.be/P_U9SzYYV4Y




http://youtu.be/mPuVubVtvWI


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I'm not sure how those videos fit the question of how and if training styles overseas are different. 
I understand the reason behind them but, for the most part it's teasing dogs behind a fence to channel their aggression. At the very least, creating barrier aggression. All common to many protection trainers world wide.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

ditto what Bob said 
if you throw up a bunch of links u had a reason for taking the time to do it ... what was it ??

i only saw the first 3 and quit ... amateur fence fighting and teasing dogs behind a barrier has nothing to do with any formal training system that i know of no matter who or where it is being done ... i hope you don't consider these clips an example of "international training styles"


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## Sue DiCero (Sep 2, 2006)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Sorry, forgot about the shouting!
> 
> The thing is, there is a lot of emotion in training - if your trainer thinks you have a possibility to go further, he will push you and if you disappoint him occasionally, he might show some wrath.
> 
> ...


A good point.

Some people do not like direct conversation. They do not have active listening or ask questions, so they only absorb, maybe retain and understand a small percentage.. Or do not work dog during the week and expect progress with minimal work. Or work dog somewhere else, dog is different and then get upset when caught.....

Training groups are more social here than in Europe (done both). Groups/clubs there are social, but more focused on training, etc. Some in the states are like that, but lower percentage. But, more of a business here than in Europe (unless it is a training and trialing club for out of country clients). 

People watch, ask questions. Here, lot of people on their mobiles....


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

It would be very difficult to explain the diferences in training in "beyond the pond" and here, i.e. Germany, Switzerland, Holland, Austria, France, etc.

As for the social part, this is very important. Sometimes clubs visit others to train (don't forget, we are not many miles from another in Swit^zerland).

I was born in England and can honestly relate to a completely different attitude to life here in Switzerland, and, having trained in Germany, a similar way of sport.

The sport in Europe is maybe a fact of the social and sport life. It "seems" to me to be more military organised than over the pond.

I don't think it can be regarded as better. I can maybe admit that the closeness of the European countries can contribute to more competition but, first and foremost, I would suggest that the life style, now and over the ages, contributes a great deal to the way one thinks about competing.

The English do not figure greatly in the international ranking lists. Why??

Swiss and German are often foremonst - why?

I, as an English handler, had to learn the basic rules from a Swss trainer (ok had never trained in England) i.e. the dog has to learn that commando = carrying out of exercise, less is a no-go.

Forget Europe - concentrate on doing it correctly in the USA!!!


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

I have to say I had a blast visiting Belgian & German clubs compared to here, maybe because I was a guest. I saw differences in clubs & training as I do here. Just seemed to be more commitment or maybe availability. I never visited one here that a had a bar restaurant either.


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