# I've been meaning to ask too...



## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

About Dutchies, in the past 2-3 yrs there have been quite a few litters advertised and some sold to members of this forum.

The majority of these litters would be about the same age now as the breeding pairs were then.

How are they doing ?? What are they doing ?? Are they hard hitting dogs like the sire ??

I am asking because I'm beginning to think that the drive, if you choose to call it that, is higher than some but the actual working ability isn't really that shit hot.

Of course I'm basing this on 2 dogs, pups actually raised by myself but in a young adult approx 2 yrs I can't see anything really different. Granted, like with most breeders the best pups aren't for sale until they don't work out at home.

What have your experiences been ?? Could the success ratio with pups be any better than with a Mal for example ? I've seen many vids of different studs but very few of any progeny so I'm just wondering.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> About Dutchies, in the past 2-3 yrs there have been quite a few litters advertised and some sold to members of this forum.
> 
> The majority of these litters would be about the same age now as the breeding pairs were then.
> 
> ...


If these dogs don't participate in some sort of a common venue to make assessments who decides how hard hitting is gauged what is lotso drive or not so much is there a benchmark.
Hell the majority in dog sports don't know a shitter from a keeper. Nearly all the ppd stuff I see on video laughable. How do you guys know what's what.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Mike Scheiber said:


> If these dogs don't participate in some sort of a common venue to make assessments who decides how hard hitting is gauged what is lotso drive or not so much is there a benchmark.
> Hell the majority in dog sports don't know a shitter from a keeper. Nearly all the ppd stuff I see on video laughable. How do you guys know what's what.


That's part of my question, how do people find out how these dogs are doing ?? I haven't heard of any doing Ring...some are doing Schutzund, but the Skinners have a Lab that does that.

It seems too objective with this breed because they are bred for a purpose and nobody does that in North America..like deciding to be a seal hunter in Nebraska.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

There are many (about 40) offspring from our breedings now working with the Govt in different areas.
Some with Special Ops, some with US Customs, some with Border Patrol, some with DOD, some with LE.
Most of these are Arko offspring. Of the 6 dogs that I had at the SDA decoy seminar, 3 of them were Arko sons. I think the people who were there would agree that at least 1 of those 3 Arko sons born and raised at our place hits just like his father, maybe even better. He is now working for an SF group.
I have been very happy with the quality of the dogs from those breedings. If I look at the best ones that we have produced here, they are just as good as the ones that we import from Europe. The problem is that I just can not keep enough and raise them due to the time required, so we have to import the majority of our green dogs that are already 14 months or so.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> That's part of my question, how do people find out how these dogs are doing ?? I haven't heard of any doing Ring...some are doing Schutzund, but the Skinners have a Lab that does that.
> 
> It seems too objective with this breed because they are bred for a purpose and nobody does that in North America..like deciding to be a seal hunter in Nebraska.


I don't want to jack this thread I'm interested hearing how people decide whats good and what aint how health info is handled and such.
Any one that uses a schutzhund title as the sole benchmark to gauge the breed worthiness of a dog is no better than a backyard breeder.
I enjoy Schutzhund the sport I like messing with dog training and figuring out how to get what I want out of my dog its fun.
The national events are a great place have a look see and rite down some dog/bitch names of interest ask some questions from people who know.
Talk to people that know about a dog back home or dogs that they may have worked or heard about elsewhere.
People say a title don't make the dog I agree. If my neighbor has a self proclaimed bad ass dog and a Ray Allen bite suite and a starter pistol to prove it.
I wouldn't bother to look over my fence to see what all the commotion was about.
If that's all the effort he is willing to make for the betterment of my Shepherd or your Shepherd as a stud dog **** him.
There's people and families that have been breeding importing and testing showing dogs for decades that are more deserving to get my money, if they don't have what I like or want there are others making the same efforts.
Not sure why I typed all this guess it would be nice to be able to follow rather than wonder what ever happened to that dog pup or litter. Or watch them compete in a venue and be able to measure and compare.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Looks like Mike may have answered your question before I posted mine


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

mike suttle said:


> There are many (about 40) offspring from our breedings now working with the Govt in different areas.
> Some with Special Ops, some with US Customs, some with Border Patrol, some with DOD, some with LE.
> Most of these are Arko offspring. Of the 6 dogs that I had at the SDA decoy seminar, 3 of them were Arko sons. I think the people who were there would agree that at least 1 of those 3 Arko sons born and raised at our place hits just like his father, maybe even better. He is now working for an SF group.
> I have been very happy with the quality of the dogs from those breedings. If I look at the best ones that we have produced here, they are just as good as the ones that we import from Europe. The problem is that I just can not keep enough and raise them due to the time required, so we have to import the majority of our green dogs that are already 14 months or so.


That's great, I was hoping to get some feedback from people that had bought dogs from you and others and what they are doing now.


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## Jack Roberts (Sep 5, 2008)

Gerry,

What are your thoughts on your two Dutch Shepherds?


It sounds like you like the drive but not how they work? Do you not like the temperament or nerves of your dogs? Are the reactive to a fault? I am trying to understand what you mean about not being "shit hot".

Do the DS not learn as quickly or not keep working? Did you think that the dogs were going to have higher intelligence than other dogs that you've had? 

I do not know that much about the Dutch Shepherds but it seems to be a new favorable alternative breed to the Malinois and German Shepherds. I have read some comments from breeders as promoting these dogs as Malinois with on/off switches. Of course, this is just sales talk. I also heard that they are more serious dogs but this sounds like sales talk. There are serious dogs in different breeds and it is more of an individual bases especially among the German Shepherd, Malinois or the Dutch Shepherd. 

I have always found that an on/off switch is a trainer issue not a dog issue. You can train a dog to behave in the house but a lot trainers seem to have forgotten how to teach house manners and would rather crate a dog. I really can not understand how someone can train their dog but do not take the time to teach house manners. I have had some older dogs that had never been in a house and taught them how to behave in the house. It was not difficult, perhaps more time consuming and requiring consistency. 

**I think the better question instead of titles is what are some of the negatives and positives that people have with their Dutch Shepherds? There are no perfect dogs and every dog has some fault. Most people just are not willing to admit or see their dog's faults.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

What breeders where you talking about specifically ?? Suttle gave you an answer, but what other breeders were you talking about ??

I like the "idea" of the DS, although I have seen too many breeders of "extreme" DS and have not really seen too many that I liked. Most that I have seen other than Kevins were real nervy, or real dull. I had little Cruyff the rescue pup, and he was a good dog.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Some of the ones that you saw at Kevin's are from us. Aldo and Cooper were two Arko sons that Kevin had for a while.


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## Jack Roberts (Sep 5, 2008)

Here is a breeder promoting the on/off switch and calmness of the Dutch Shepherd over the Malinois. This is not the only breeder promoting this quality of the DS. You only have to google "off swith" and Dutch Shepherd. If I remember this breeder is on the list. I would be interested in hearing from them about some of the differences in the Malinois and Dutch Shepherds. It seems to me that crossing the Malinois and Dutch Shepherds that you would have the same traits that show in both breeds.

http://www.vankamphuis.com/

Here is a quote from the pdf file: Look at the bottom of the quote.

http://www.vankamphuis.com/dutchiehistory.pdf

The difference with the unregistered Dutch Shepherds found in the KNPV 
program is that they have a strong influence of Malinois blood in them. Without 
the restriction of official registration or pedigree, the definition of whether a dog 
is a Malinois or a Dutch Shepherd, primarily comes down to appearance. When 
a Malinois is bred to a Dutch Shepherd some of the pups will be born with a 
Fawn coat and will be known as a Malinois, while others will be born with a 
brindle coat and will be known as a Dutch Shepherd. One legendry KNPV Dutch 
Shepherd was Arras Pegge. While Arras had a Dutch Shepherd for a mother his 
father was a Malinois. This simple classification process has allowed the 
unregistered Dutch Shepherd (and unregistered Malinois for that matter) to 
develop and maintain a large gene pool for breeding. Although the unregistered 
Dutch Shepherd can carry a good deal of Malinois blood, people often comment 
that they still maintain the often desirable traits of the Dutch Shepherd, that is, a 
highly driven, sometimes stubborn dog with more calmness than a Malinois. 
They are also often described as “a Malinois with an off switch!”


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Cooper didn't do shit for a long time, and then all of a sudden, he woke up. I can see where this would work for a PD or what the Dutch do, but as far as a ring dog, there is too much to teach to wait till 15 months for the bite. His dumb ass got real serious real fast. Too bad he had to wait so long to do that.

Aldo is a nice dog, however, whoever worked that dog was an idiot. He had all some issues with the handler approaching and started moving about on the bite. If the handler stayed back, he was solid. First sign of an approach, and he was all over. Shame, hell of a nice dog.


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## kristin tresidder (Oct 23, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> as far as a ring dog, there is too much to teach to wait till 15 months for the bite...


why? from the outside looking in, the only thing it seems waiting would impede would be titling at a young age.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Seems like that is the problem with looking from the outside.


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## kristin tresidder (Oct 23, 2008)

well, that's why i asked for clarification from an educated insider.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

While Mike didnt breed my dog, he is an Arko son. He is an exceptional dog, not because I own him, more in spite of it really. I dont know how he compares to all the other young Arkos.
I think that if Arko wasnt producing you would have alot of people saying it. I havent really heard much negative feedback about him. 
From my point of view I have bred a number of working German Shepherds, Malinois and friends of mine have had lots of litters of GSD's and pedigreed Malis. I can honestly say, as would the freinds of mine that have bred their Mali and GSD litters, that there has been a big difference with them.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I am not saying anything about Arko, just noticed that the dog Cooper didn't show shit till 13 15 months and that is too long for me to wait. I have too much to do before then. I also don't need that aggression, the decoy is part of the teaching process.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> What breeders where you talking about specifically ?? Suttle gave you an answer, but what other breeders were you talking about ??
> 
> I like the "idea" of the DS, although I have seen too many breeders of "extreme" DS and have not really seen too many that I liked. Most that I have seen other than Kevins were real nervy, or real dull. I had little Cruyff the rescue pup, and he was a good dog.


There have been quite a few DS litters for sale in the past here in the litter announcement section.

I know Mike answered me and I don't doubt his word but those dogs nobody will ever see any video of or anything else..so they don't really count to me.

The Van Leeuwen videos that Tim posted were good and the dogs are hard biting dogs for sure, but not much control was evident, and maybe that doesn't matter much with Police dogs, but that brings up another question for me and I mean no disrespect but I read Dick Van Leeuwen has been not working the streets for like 8 yrs ? Selena mentioned that in a post repling to a question about the dogs.

So, if the oldest dog is 8 yrs and Wibo is maybe 5 yrs, how do they get a police dog certificate ? I'm not talking about a PH1 either. I'm just curious about that really, don't put Wibo on me Dick 8-[

I've only had 2, the first was kind of mental and this one is abit of a pussy..I dunno, I guess I was just expecting more.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I've only had 2, the first was kind of mental and this one is abit of a pussy..I dunno, I guess I was just expecting more.


I know the first one you had was an Arko son, and from the videos I saw as a puppy he looked like a dog with the potential to be very aggressive, but not clear headed at all. I would agree that from what I saw he was kind of mental.:twisted:
I cant remember who your current dog is out of, not Arko I know that. But regardless, with every breed from every bloodline you will get some nice dogs and some not so great dogs. I dont think Dutchies are any better at all than Malinois, and with some lines they are no different at all. With our lines, it is only a color difference, like a black GSD and a sable GSD from the same litter.
A good dog is where you find it. And everyone has a different definition of what good is.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> I dont think Dutchies are any better at all than Malinois, and with some lines they are no different at all. With our lines, it is only a color difference, like a black GSD and a sable GSD from the same litter.


I think the best Malis in the KNPV are pretty similar as the best Dutchies in the KNPV. The FCI Dutchies are way worse but...
I think the thing that gives the Mali the edge over the Dutchie is that there is far more variety of Malis than Dutchies. The good Dutchies are from the KNPV and are of a type. The Mali has French Ring, NVBK, KNPV and even IPO bloodlines which all are different. So if you dont like the KNPV type of dog then Dutchies are gonna be not that interesting to you. Chances are what ever type of working dog you like you will find it somewhere in the Malinois genepool.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Christopher Jones said:


> I think the best Malis in the KNPV are pretty similar as the best Dutchies in the KNPV. The FCI Dutchies are way worse but...
> I think the thing that gives the Mali the edge over the Dutchie is that there is far more variety of Malis than Dutchies. The good Dutchies are from the KNPV and are of a type. The Mali has French Ring, NVBK, KNPV and even IPO bloodlines which all are different. So if you dont like the KNPV type of dog then Dutchies are gonna be not that interesting to you. Chances are what ever type of working dog you like you will find it somewhere in the Malinois genepool.


 I agree. Almost all of the dogs we have through here are from 100% KNPV lines. SO the malis and the Dutchies from those lines are very similar. I have still not seen an FCI Dutchie that I really liked, but have seen several FCI Malinois that were very nice.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

I read everything and there all good points. I saw a dog in Holland that was 10 months old off Bassie bred to Carna's mother Umi(French prey driven Malinois) All I can say is WOW. This dog was serious and has not had a bite yet but super intense! He wanted to hurt me. Brindle coloring too! I really think there could be better dogs if pedigrees didn't matter.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

mike suttle said:


> I know the first one you had was an Arko son, and from the videos I saw as a puppy he looked like a dog with the potential to be very aggressive, but not clear headed at all. I would agree that from what I saw he was kind of mental.:twisted:
> I cant remember who your current dog is out of, not Arko I know that. But regardless, with every breed from every bloodline you will get some nice dogs and some not so great dogs. I dont think Dutchies are any better at all than Malinois, and with some lines they are no different at all. With our lines, it is only a color difference, like a black GSD and a sable GSD from the same litter.
> A good dog is where you find it. And everyone has a different definition of what good is.


Yes, the first one was an Arko son and the second was supposed to be from a van Hoek breeding.

My definition of good is alot simpler than most, however both dogs were at opposite ends of the spectrum from each other..luck of the draw I guess.


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Timothy Stacy said:


> I read everything and there all good points. I saw a dog in Holland that was 10 months old off Bassie bred to Carna's mother Umi(French prey driven Malinois) All I can say is WOW. This dog was serious and has not had a bite yet but super intense! He wanted to hurt me. Brindle coloring too! I really think there could be better dogs if pedigrees didn't matter.


Hey Tim, was that Draco?


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Anna Kasho said:


> Hey Tim, was that Draco?


Yes!!!


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