# Working strong recalls with pups...



## Jose Alberto Reanto (Apr 6, 2006)

Recall exercises on 6 month old pups...


http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6269570598293483975

Enjoy!!!


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Awesome!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Excellent!


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## David DeSimone (Oct 19, 2006)

That is nice!!

David


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Very nice!
He handled that ladder well. 
It's always funny seeing some young dogs learning to climb and keep sticking their head through the rungs and having no clue how to go up.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

It is really great they can do it, but as a silly European..I can´t stop thinking about the early wrecked joints..and still can´t see the advantage for an early ob routine like this..are they gonna be circusdogs or workingdogs?


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## Jose Alberto Reanto (Apr 6, 2006)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> It is really great they can do it, but as a silly European..I can´t stop thinking about the early wrecked joints


Silly indeed. Early wrecked joint? They may have been wrecked to begin with. Plain ignorance or lame excuses to hide weaknesses in breeding, I should say. So what about in the olden and golden days of these great working breeds when farmers brought their pups at a very early age in the working field to learn from the adults? Wreck joints?

If I remember correctly, "circus dogs" was coined by the late Col. Konrad Most in his book "Training Dogs-A manual" to refer to sportdogs, no offense meant. 



Selena van Leeuwen said:


> ..and still can´t see the advantage for an *early ob routine *like this..are they gonna be circusdogs or workingdogs?


Just a slight correction, Selena. No routines, no drills, no food, tug or toy rewards like you do. While I'll bet your pups will jump off and rather disregard you more so if you don't have food or toy rewards, those pups obey regardless of difficulties. Now think what effect will this kind of foundation bring in future serious work between the dog/man teams. If a pictures paints a thousand words, that video should say millions. Just think.... 

Best regards... :wink:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Edited...... Error


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Jose Alberto Reanto said:


> Selena van Leeuwen said:
> 
> 
> > It is really great they can do it, but as a silly European..I can´t stop thinking about the early wrecked joints
> ...


Oke, you have to learn to do this, right? 
And you say your self "those pups obey regardless of difficulties", so it is an ob exercise, right?
And they must obey...regardless what so ever, so it is an excercise in the obligationphase, right?

IMO if there is to much pressure on young dogs, they won´t grow out to their full genetic potention. So puppies doesn´t do anything except play a lot.

To summarize: our views on raising a puppy to working dogs are like day and night difference. :wink:


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

I don't see the video as circus dog type stuff. That's a pup wanting to obey, nice pup! I also don't see the wrecked joint thing either.

I don't believe any of my dogs would climb a ladder, i'd be afraid to try it. My pup elvis tried following me one time up into the attic and he fell, scared the crap out of me! THUMP! I think your dogs are cool Al,

The other Al


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## Jose Alberto Reanto (Apr 6, 2006)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Maybe so, but why let them do unnatural thing which can hurt or misdevelop joints in the growth.


That's just exactly what that video should have told you. To develop "misdeveloped joint" when working them young is a misconception. It may have been that those joints were already a "wreck" to begin with. Obviously those pups were worked even earlier to be able to achieve such levels of agility, confidence, trust and bond with their handlers and obedience as seen in that video. If they have wrecked their jonts as you say due to "ünnatural training" and working them early, in no way could those exercises be possible now. Of course, just like in any endeavor, it goes to say the handlers should know what they're doing.




Selena van Leeuwen said:


> I don´t know the man or the book. And why should i be offended? I think these are more like circustricks, than usefull for a workingdog.


I didn't know that a dog obeying its handler to come to him while combining agility would constitute a trick. I hope that training a dog to scale a fence or a high wall to come to the aid of its handler in defense work will not be regarded a trick as well. I hope dogs that goes in confidence remotely controlled by their handlers while going thru rubbles and collapsed structures doing rescues will not be treated as circusdogs. Also, I hope that when you put your pup alone with access to nearby obstacles like logs, chairs, ladders or whatever, you wouldn't be surprised to see your pup on top of any of them on its own. By then, you would have realized that agility is natural and dogs are naturally drawn to man. 



Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Oke, you have to learn to do this, right?


Definitely!!! How? First, by not listening to some common beliefs but instead hold that leash and work those dogs/pups. It's common knowledge that these creatures (left to themsleves) would be accomplished hunters and predators at about a year of age, else they wouldn't survive. It's like as if the Creator, in his Infinite Wisdom, made these creatures helpless at birth when they're not. 




Selena van Leeuwen said:


> And you say your self "those pups obey regardless of difficulties", so it is an ob exercise, right?
> And they must obey...regardless what so ever, so it is an excercise in the obligationphase, right?
> 
> IMO if there is to much pressure on young dogs, they won´t grow out to their full genetic potention. So puppies doesn´t do anything except play a lot.


Too much pressure? Don't you know pups cannot be forced into an exercise? Was there any trickery, bribery or coercion done by any handler in that video, or was it just plain recalling the pup? 

Anyway, that's just like what most say and believe in, and I really want to believe you, Selena. I would look like a fool and an outcast if I didn't. But the dogs says otherwise when they reveal themselves in actual work. So let me just be a fool and an outcast believing that the truth is really behind those dogs when working them in their natural state in any environments. So sorry, your opinions may be very very popular, but I find them unacceptable and would readilly put them under the myth section. 



Selena van Leeuwen said:


> To summarize: our views on raising a puppy to working dogs are like day and night difference. :wink:


Of course, I'm into working the dogs and making them functional in any environment and in any prevailing working conditions. You're into routines and titling them. So who's into circus training? 

By the way, Selena, know that I'm not trying to be rude in this exchange. That cannot happen since you're more popular and acceptable in this forum than I will ever be. It's just me stating passionately what I believe to be true out of working the dogs/pups. So I'M SORRY if I sound offensive. I have a number of Dutch friends and I find them very very nice people. 

I apologize to the other forum members as well.

Best regards... :wink:


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Jose Alberto Reanto said:


> Just a slight correction, Selena. No routines, no drills, no food, tug or toy rewards like you do. While I'll bet your pups will jump off and rather disregard you more so if you don't have food or toy rewards, those pups obey regardless of difficulties.


Please don't make assumptions about other peoples dogs, I am sick of these generalizations between "real dogs" and "sport dogs", and frankly its pretty annoying.

What I would like to see is the video of the learning process on a green dog, including the parts that people tend to edit out because it doesn't look as nice or as pretty as the finished product.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jose Alberto Reanto said:


> ....... While I'll bet your pups will jump off and rather disregard you more so if you don't have food or toy rewards.....


Well, I made a sharp retort to this earlier and then edited it away immediately because it seemed to be between Al and Selena.

But I am going to reply -- less sharply. :lol: 

The whole reward-in-teaching-phase thing has been beaten into the ground. I'm old enough to have seen both ways as widely accepted training methods, and I can't understand now why I didn't use tangible rewards in the teaching phase of obedience all along. But there's no need to revive that neverending argument here.

BUT --- the instructional phase is not the only phase; it's just the first phase. And NO, my dogs won't "jump off and rather disregard" me, if I "don't have food or toy rewards."

The statement sounds as if the handler who uses tangible rewards when instructing the dog in an obedience command then goes on to carry treats around forever; not only that, it also sounds as if the handler uses food or toys as lures or bribes. That's a different thing from rewarding. There may be a place for lures, but it is not the same as rewards.

The whole statement: "While I'll bet your pups will jump off and rather disregard you more so if you don't have food or toy rewards"..... to me seems to be loaded not only with assumptions about other people's dogs, but also maybe a lack of understanding of a big part of motivational training.

I too do not want to be rude or offensive. I'm trying to point out what I see as a communication problem.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Jose Alberto Reanto said:


> By the way, Selena, know that I'm not trying to be rude in this exchange. That cannot happen since you're more popular and acceptable in this forum than I will ever be.


so because selena is "popular and acceptable" in this forum, it's impossible for you to be rude? one has nothing to do with the other. as you have proven...

keep doing whatever works for you in your little corner of the world. meanwhile, i'll keep trying to position myself to get my hands on one of selena's dogs...


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## Jose Alberto Reanto (Apr 6, 2006)

Tim Martens said:


> so because selena is "popular and acceptable" in this forum, it's impossible for you to be rude? one has nothing to do with the other. as you have proven...


If someone posts that what you do are simply tricks intended for circus dogs, then be grateful if that's exactly what you do. Otherwise, you have every right to clear it up... if you're man enough to stand for what you believe in. 



Tim Martens said:


> keep doing whatever works for you in your little corner of the world. meanwhile, i'll keep trying to position myself to get my hands on one of selena's dogs...


Go ahead and do what you want. It's none of my business.....

Best regards...


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Connie, ditto on the misconceptions on motivational teaching. I find that tugs and treats are useful NOT in making a dog to obey--you can do that without these tools--but in getting the dog into a certain mindset when working. Whether or not this 'mindset' is useful to you is your call--fast, relaxed, stress-free obedience that may be required of the dog for an extended amount of time, some call it 'flashy', but then it's also the same techniques used for detection dogs...it has nothing whatsoever to do with whether the dog will obey you or not without them. They will. As Al likes to put it, it's ingrained in the dog's whole being already. 

I find Al's techniques more as an exercise than as a 'principle', and they're very useful in tightening the bond between me and my tug-addicted dog. :twisted: It doesn't mean the technique 'created' the bond or filled in gaps that weren't there...it's just something different and challenging for us. You'd be able to say the same thing with the 'other' method...the Schutzhund heel and the dumbbell retrieve is not as easy as it looks!

Interesting thing is, this dog I asked to climb a ladder...I did not have to take advantage of the puppy following instinct by calling him myself...without a treat or tug in presence with me away in a new environment...and he did it. He needed help, of course, but he did it, and I asked him again and he did it again and again and my voice and approval was enough for him. All the training I have ever done before this prior was what some would consider 'sport' techniques. So what happened? Fact is, I have a bond with my dog, regardless of what training techniques I use with him. I love him and I like to think he respects me enough to do what I ask him to do. In my POV, though, this is a relationship, so I give back to him as much as he gives to me. So I play with him once in a while, I let him chase tugs and toys, and I give him treats, not because he needs or wants them but because I love him enough to show him it's not just always me that matters.

This is a dog who shows extreme aggression in bitework, is civil, will not out even if you try to choke him. I ask him to please out, I don't have to raise my voice, he will out. I put a bandage around him, most dogs will try to tear it out. I ask him please don't mess with it. He looks at me, sighs, and ignores it. For days. This dog will do anything in the world for me I know. So what is it about him that was ruined by playing with tugs or being treated for obeying in the past? Is he constantly looking for a tug or a treat? How about now? I shove a tug at him, he's lying beside me, he's looking at it like I'm crazy. He's not a machine--he's a living, breathing creature who knows when it's time for work or play and has a varied amount of interests in life. I know this, he knows this, and we've never had any trouble.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

It's not about popularity, it just sounds pretty arrogant to make assumptions about dogs you've never seen before, I don't care who it is.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Lyn, thank you for that well-expressed explanation of motivation.

It's odd, but apparently there are people who really believe that teaching an ob command with tangible rewards means that the handler carries food around in the world and is in trouble if he forgets his bag o' treats! :lol: I don't mean this thread, either; I've read many comments about how it doesn't allow a true bond to develop, or destroys a dog's "work ethic." QUOTE: it has nothing whatsoever to do with whether the dog will obey you or not without them. END 

Exactly! 

BTW, I had almost the same ladder experience. The first time, I helped with paw placement going up, and I went down with my arms outside his body ... but he wanted to do it. He did it because I asked him to do it and showed him how. And he did it alone the second and third times. Needless to say, no treats or tugs were involved. :lol: 

I'm pretty sure I read here that Bob Scott had satisfying ladder experiences, too.

Of course, now that I read about Al Curbow's ladder experience, I'll probably be a jittery wreck if we try it again. :lol: Still, that dog did it 100% on his own. Not sure if mine could have.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

My GSD did the ladder on his first try at about 16 wks. No pressure. He just wanted to follow me. 
I've had a few terriers that you couldn't leave a ladder out. They'd climb it just to see where it went. 
When my son was younger, his JRT would climb a verticle ladder (boards nailed to the tree) to get in the tree house. Since he couldn't climb down the verticle ladder, he would just jump out the window.  He did that every day for a couple of years till my son out grew the tree house. 
He also climed the rose trellis on the garage if he saw a squirrel up there. Jumped off the garage also. 
Any wonder why JRTs are referred to as Mini-Mals?!


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

Please guys and gals...
...don't f&[l< it up.

THERE IS NO NEED TO BE EVEN A *TINY* BIT JUDGEMENTAL.
WHAT THE HELL IS THE POINT OF DISAGREEMENT IF ALL THAT'S HAPPENING IS YOU'RE BEING SOFT ON THE ISSUE AND *HARD* ON THE PEOPLE. WHY THE HELL IS NO ONE ASKING, "HEY AL...HOW THE HELL DO YOU DO THAT???!!!!"
STOP CRITICIZING!!!!
STOP JUDGING!!!!
AL REANTO SPENDS ENOUGH TIME WITH DOGS AND HAS SHARED ENOUGH...VERY, VERY POLITELY...TO DESERVE TO SUPPORT HIS POINT OF NO TUGS, NO TREATS WITHOUT GETTING QUESTIONED, *JUST AS MUCH* AS EVERYONE ELSE CAN SUPPORT THE TUGS AND TREATS!!!
WILL THIS BE A UNIDIRECTIONAL BOARD????

THE FOLLOWING IS THE $#!+ THAT SHOULDN'T BE WRITTEN:


> circusdogs





> While I'll bet your pups will jump off and rather disregard you





> whatever works for you in your little corner of the world.


AL'S VIDEO SHOULD SIMPLY HAVE RECIEVED PRAISE. THAT'S IT.
SOME MIGHT ARGUE THE "OH, DON'T BE SENSITIVE" STUFF, BUT KEEP ONE THING IN MIND: *NOT ALL CULTURES ARE THE SAME. WHAT IS A SLIGHT RUB FOR ONE, MIGHT BE VERY SERIOUS TO SOMEONE ELSE*
We've lost a BUNCH of good posters already. No need to add to that list.

BTW...OTHER POSTERS HAVE "LADDER" EXPERIENCES...CARE TO SHARE SOME VIDEO????!!!!!

SELENA'S SIGNATURE SPEAKS VOLUMES: "Man is never to old to learn...and a wise man will learn forever!"...OR ARE WE ALL DONE LEARNING.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

HEY, ANDRES!

Did you notice that nearly all the comments about Al's video were extremely complimentary?

Did you notice that "HIS POINT OF NO TUGS, NO TREATS" wasn't criticized or even mentioned until Al said "I'll bet your pups will jump off and rather disregard you, more so if you don't have food or toy rewards" ?

I can't speak for all the others who complimented his video (check out the first five responses!), but my reason for not asking "Hey Al, how'd you do that?" was that I had done it. Maybe not as quickly or easily (I have no idea), but I didn't need to ask "How the hell did you do that?" as you phrased it. And no one who has ever done SAR training would need to ask, either.

That doesn't detract from the video.

I am certain that there are many many things Al does with his dogs that I do not have the know-how or experience or whatever to do, but this wasn't one of them.

Al's "no treats no tugs" POV was brought into this thread by AL, Andres.... no one else. And I really didn't view the way it did come up as being "very very polite."


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Al, I'm sorry I responded to Andres by referring to you as if you weren't present.

I'm pretty sure you don't need Andres or anyone to protect you if you disagree with Selena, and I'm pretty sure you can carry your own weight in the no-treats-no-tugs neverending saga, too. (If you couldn't, you probably wouldn't have brought it into the thread provocatively.)

And just as everyone said way back early in the thread, your video IS excellent.


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## Jose Alberto Reanto (Apr 6, 2006)

It's all up to anyone if they want to put weight on my reponse to a post that I believed was reckless. If I were asked what objectives I intend to achieve with my training so as to make an educated comment, I could have shared some insights to the best of my ability, though much of what I do are better felt than said. I realized it may have been miscommunication like Connie suggested as both me and Selena are not from English-speaking countries, but her second post confirmed all doubts. But on the other hand, I may have triggered it too. 

I hope we can forget all these and come back to training...

Best regards....


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jose Alberto Reanto said:


> I hope we can forget all these and come back to training...
> 
> Best regards....


Of course we can and will. We always do!


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Al, not offended at all and my "popularity" (am I? i´m just a moderator from another part of the world who has another reference than most here) isn´t a point in this topic. 

My view on things are just totally different than yours, I have not to agree with you and you have not to agree with me, you can learn from eachother or take notice from other views. And some we won´t ever agree and for some views we will agree, nothing to it :wink:

I have just given my views and sometimes it is hard to write in english what I exactly mean.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote:Just a slight correction, Selena. No routines, no drills, no food, tug or toy rewards like you do. While I'll bet your pups will jump off and rather disregard you more so if you don't have food or toy rewards, those pups obey regardless of difficulties. Now think what effect will this kind of foundation bring in future serious work between the dog/man teams. If a pictures paints a thousand words, that video should say millions. Just think.... 

KNPV dogs are in military and police depts all over the place. Going up a ladder isn't really high on their list of priorities. Plus, the dog itself determines it's worth as a K9, or a military patrol dog, not it's ability to go up a ladder. It is much easier to teach a dog to be carried in some fashion.

Overall it is nice that you spend the time to train your pups like this, although not really necessary. I don't know a lot of roofers that get attacked and need a PP dog.

When I work my dog, or anyone elses dog, I realize that rewards are a part of the training. Sure, I could just pat them on the head and tell them theat's a good dog, or, I could do something great and give them a treat which is better than a pat, or I could reward them with a tug and it is much better than the the previous rewards.

I like to think of this as your dog works at McDonalds, for minimum wage, and my dog is a million dollar a week business owner. 

Still, I did like the video.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Jeff thank you for telling much better than I ever can, what my thoughts are.


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## Jose Alberto Reanto (Apr 6, 2006)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Al, not offended at all and my "popularity" (am I? i´m just a moderator from another part of the world who has another reference than most here) isn´t a point in this topic.
> 
> *My view on things are just totally different than yours, I have not to agree with you and you have not to agree with me, you can learn from eachother or take notice from other views*. And some we won´t ever agree and for some views we will agree, nothing to it :wink:
> 
> I have just given my views and sometimes it is hard to write in english what I exactly mean.


... and that makes the world go round. It may be difficult for me to explain what I do too, hence the videos or pics. Since I'm into dogs as well as the rest here, I'd rather learn from them, and thru them I'll find the truth. That's my bottom line.

Friends?

Best regards...


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Jose Alberto Reanto said:


> Selena van Leeuwen said:
> 
> 
> > Al, not offended at all and my "popularity" (am I? i´m just a moderator from another part of the world who has another reference than most here) isn´t a point in this topic.
> ...


We still were friends :wink: debating things and not agreeing with eachother doesn´t make a difference. :wink:


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

"KNPV dogs are in military and police depts all over the place. Going up a ladder isn't really high on their list of priorities. Plus, the dog itself determines it's worth as a K9, or a military patrol dog, not it's ability to go up a ladder. It is much easier to teach a dog to be carried in some fashion.

Overall it is nice that you spend the time to train your pups like this, although not really necessary. I don't know a lot of roofers that get attacked and need a PP dog."




His training is to teach the dog to learn to focus on the task and obey command under difficult situation, going up the ladder is a tool to help him achieve his training, I don't think it has anything to do with sending a dog up the roof to bite someboday.


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## Jose Alberto Reanto (Apr 6, 2006)

Khoi Pham said:


> His training is to teach the dog to learn to focus on the task and obey command under difficult situation, going up the ladder is a tool to help him achieve his training, I don't think it has anything to do with sending a dog up the roof to bite someboday.


Whew!!! Thanks, Khoi, for analyzing and knowing what that training is really all about.... :lol: :lol: :lol: 

Honestly, I just happen to own a ladder so I worked them dogs. Lately I saved enough to get me some benches. Now let me see what new experiences I can give my dogs with those. :lol: :lol: I still look forward to saving enough to build me one real good obstacle course. For now, I'd stick to what I can afford.

One thing I noticed about ladders is that since the rungs are evenly spaced, the dogs develop a pattern of going thru them. Not bad at all, in fact so very nice. The dog's confidence and trust with its handler shoots up as both worked together and the dog's just about ready for higher level of experiences. But not very good....

After the last super typhoon we just had, I had the chance to use debris to work the dogs intensively. Now, this kind of obstacle can even be better. 

Best regards....


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

I haven't watched this particular video yet, but I just wanted to interject a little humor about mine and Jak's first ladder experience, which was at the playground, a month or so ago.

I thought I'd see if I could get Jak to climb up one of the ladders, so I went part of the way up and called him to me. He came running over, went up as far as his front legs would let him, stood there with his back feet still on the ground, looked at me like I was an idiot, then went around and took the stairs and came to me. :lol: :lol:


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## Greg Long (Mar 27, 2006)

Wow! I miss everything..LOL.

I have learned to be a bit more accepting of other methods of which many are really just offshoots of the same method.Many times we just argue this or that in different terms but with the same ideas.The internet is a [email protected]#$ poor way to discuss dog training IMO.It is better served as a way to locate others who you might want to go and actually meet in person and then decide whether or not their methods are right for you.
Videos are amusing but noone can tell much from them.Pics are even worse and words bring nothing but confusion and chaos..which I personally dont mind but thats another topic..LOL.

The ladder excercise is done on leash so the pups wont fall in the beginning and they can be directed.You can call them "circus tricks" if you like I dont mind because I have seen what some of those "circus dogs" can do.
I really dont give a S!## how YOU train YOUR dogs if they work nice.I know how I will probably always train mine and its not for everyone.Thats how it should be.

I believe that the wrecked joints are far more likely when you take a dog at about 12 months that has not done any training and then start really working them.A pup that has been worked from the start will develop more naturally and therefore the risk will be lower and the pup already knows how to handle himself and not get hurt before his body gets bigger and heavier.Then think of all the dogs who couldnt do this type of work and were then bred for many generations and then you definitely have dogs that are predisposed to injury.They are then not like the working dogs of old but they can usually make it in sport enough to get titled and then bred.So the cycle continues.

Now..on the forum..  I for one do not mind controversy and heated arguements.Personally I dont even mind personal attacks but Ill respect the wishes of others.
I do not however nor will I ever understand why moderators block members from posting that really dont do anything but express their opinion.This is very character revealing I think when people are just "swept under the carpet".I have new found respect for Ed these days because at least he will come out and say why he kicks people off.

Now back to dogs...LOL.I just train the way that works the best for me.Rewards dont work the best.Ive tried the usual rewards and tried building "prey".The way Al does it just work better IMO.Thats the simple truth.Training circus dogs also works better for me.In fact if you do all the foundation work that Al talks about,you dont even have to do ANY bitework and the dog will still deploy and bite.They will in fact do anything that you can make them understand what it is you want them to do.They will not be deterred by ANY obstacle or stress.If the genetics are there then they can do all this and more at 1 year or less.

I think we all should go work more with our dogs instead of arguing on the computer.I think some of the best trainers on this board are the silent ones... :wink: 

Great Vid Al,BTW... :lol: :lol: 8)


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Greg Long said:


> I think some of the best trainers on this board are the silent ones... :wink:


I agree 100%. Problem is those folks spend too much time training their dogs. 

The "real dog" versus "sport dog" debate is a joke...I agree with Mike S that the distinction gets very old very fast. There are many different dogs for many different purposes and I think one of Nancy's SAR dogs or Lynn Cheffin's sled dogs are just as vital as a dog that dodges bullets ( the latter dogs will be replaced by robots soon enough :wink. I like hearing about all the dogs in the forum. If they conform to the particular working purposes for which they're bred and trained, good for them. It's a fine line and obviously some of you all feel breeds have been watered down but there's a very good reason for that: *a large number of buyers don't want dogs like that anymore.* Breed changes are *economic* issues more often than not, breed changes are not necessarily an indictment on how people have become weak and lacking values "from the good old days." "Sport dogs" are just that because their owners do not have the lifestyle or interest which compels them to do anything different with their dogs. I dont' want one of Al's dogs, I don't want one of Selena's dogs, not simply because I suspect I'd have difficulty handling it: I just don't want the thing around. I wouldn't have fun with it, it wouldn't have fun with me.

I dislike that I won't post videos of Annie's bitework and training because we seem to not be supportive enough of people trying to learn...which I am. The few times I have tried to share personal experiences openly have been met with derision (or just plain old silence) here, so screw it, I'll continue to have fun with my dog and get help from a few people here on PM. Which is too bad because we should be perfectly open to have someone post a vid or pic of something we can all discuss...and we should all be open to the notion that posting something might be met with *constructive criticism* with the end goal of educating all of us. 

It's not a learning forum if some of us continue to bag on Schutzhund, "sport dogs," food rewards, or anything else. Or post responses IN CAPS LOCK. If it's a thread that's beneath you and your standards, ignore it, but keep in mind I (and I guess a few others here) would rather have a trained SAR dog around than any MWD/PSD/PPD monster you all might train up. I'd call a cocker spaniel that could flag highs and lows with my kid's diabetes the best dog in the whole world. It's perspective and it's subjective.


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## Greg Long (Mar 27, 2006)

Woody,

You and many others seem to be missing my point.I feel that a good dog can be the "monster" when it needs to and be a perfectly stable pet for your kids at the same time.This is the SAME dog.It is able to have fun with you and protect you.It is able to be a stable SAR dog as well.It is a complete working dog as WELL AS a loving family pet.
It is capable of sport but not bred for it.It can do it ALL but you do have to be a capable and responsible dog owner.It is just common sense.
Woody, I have a pretty good idea that your own dog is capable of alot more than you think it is.Dont let others tell you YOUR dog is crap.I dont give a Da## how much experience they have.
Many times I have seen dogs that were just pets turn into a monster when worked and the owner is in shock.The abilities of your dog will lie buried and undiscovered as you walk right over them time and again.
This is what prey/reward only training often covers up and then the trainer says "get a new dog".Or they take a glance at the papers and say its junk.The individual dog rules above all else.

My point is if people dont want the type of dog I described then they should get a different breed.Or a goldfish.... :wink:


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Greg Long said:


> You and many others seem to be missing my point.I feel that a good dog can be the "monster" when it needs to and be a perfectly stable pet for your kids at the same time.This is the SAME dog.It is able to have fun with you and protect you.It is able to be a stable SAR dog as well.It is a complete working dog as WELL AS a loving family pet.
> It is capable of sport but not bred for it.It can do it ALL but you do have to be a capable and responsible dog owner.It is just common sense.
> Woody, I have a pretty good idea that your own dog is capable of alot more than you think it is.Dont let others tell you YOUR dog is crap.I dont give a Da## how much experience they have.
> Many times I have seen dogs that were just pets turn into a monster when worked and the owner is in shock.The abilities of your dog will lie buried and undiscovered as you walk right over them time and again.
> ...


I agree with you 100%. The only distinction I'll make is that your kind of dog involves a great deal of time and experience beyond what I have...I don't have a lot of time or experience. And the concern I'd have with a "multi-functional" dog like your would train is that I wouldn't quickly recognize her responses in different situations...which is kind of tricky when you have 8 or 10 toddlers, and their parents, running through the house and whatever other dumb situation my own life brings me. For now I just want a dog to have fun with me and my family that engages stuff I put in front of her with enthusiasm.

And I love my dog, she's a complete nut, she had never worked with a helper before I took her to Red Star and she's doing arm and leg bites out of the box with absolutely no hesitation of stick or whip. And she's doing it in severely happy prey and she's loving every bit of it. And yes, I was shocked. :wink: Her ob sucks because of me. She's capable of a lot more than I'll ever be able to do with her. She's genetically sound so far, she seems to have good lines in her, and she loves people. I'm her only limitation...but that's okay, because my limitations need to be hers. I don't take offense at the distinctions drawn relative to my own situation. My situation works for me. I just don't want to perpetuate the notion that there are "real" working dogs and "sport" working dogs. It's a tricky slope, and I always have to match that up with some of the best ob I have seen posted on this site...that damn Golden Retriever doing the dance routine. :lol:


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## Greg Long (Mar 27, 2006)

As far as Im concerned...almost every one of us has "sport" dogs including myself.That is dogs that are bred for or from sport lines.That doesnt mean that some of these dogs arent "real working dogs".The problem is that the dogs have and are being bred for sport and not real life work.
I would have little problem with a breeder that breeds for real life working ability first and then chooses to do sport with the same dogs.The difference is real.Sport training and trialing does not reflect the ability of a dog to perform in the real world under extreme stress or otherwise.On the other hand it doesnt mean that they cant either.

See, a dog has to prove to me that it CANT do all the things I think a good should do,not that it CAN.The big difference is that I expect a dog to be all I want.The work will reveal the truth about the genetics.Sport can,not always but sometimes,cover up the genetic weaknesses.
Competition brings out the very best and the very worst in people.The dog has no desire for competition.The dog simply serves.Schut was a great test for dogs at one time.It is a great sport for humans now.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote:I dislike that I won't post videos of Annie's bitework and training because we seem to not be supportive enough of people trying to learn...which I am. The few times I have tried to share personal experiences openly have been met with derision (or just plain old silence) here, so screw it, I'll continue to have fun with my dog and get help from a few people here on PM.

When did you get thin skinned? :twisted: Fuq 'em. You want to see bad video? Go look at me working Buko that one fine day.

My problem was with the bag on "routines" and "treats and tugs" not the video or anything else.

I have never given two shits about showing the bad stuff, or the good stuff. No one videotaped the last trial unfortunately, cause there was stuff on there that I wish I could have seen from a different perspective. Buko looked real good day one until the recall from the flee. Wasn't happening, but there is a difference in what "type" of dog he is. Not so sure he is really a sport dog, and the judge even said so.

So, put the video up, and screw what anyone else thinks. If we don't have the balls to put it out there, we will never find that person, or persons that can possibly help.

So there sissy :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> So there sissy :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:


It will take me a few weeks. I feel lame about setting up a camera and stuff to record it, even though it's a pretty small group that meets on Sundays. Annie did her first runs in on Mark yesterday (i.e., not him offering up the sleeve while I held her, don't know what you call that, but her running up on him to get to leg or arm). Fun to watch, she lives for that crap.

You should stop by Red Star if you're up here, Jeff, you'd like the ring stuff. Some nice dogs up here. The ring bulldogs are a riot to watch, and the Presas are always impressive. Irina's Presas are just cool. I just like the variety of dogs I see there...yesterday alone was a bulldogge, an APBT, two Beauviors, Presas, a Dobie, a Cane Corso, and two flighty Bichons (Irina runs a kennel, too, so there's usually a few dogs out working on socialization). No Mals so Annie was the wildest nut there :lol:.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

QUOTE: yesterday alone was a bulldogge, an APBT, two Beauviors, Presas, a Dobie, a Cane Corso, and two flighty Bichons END

Sounds a little like a group of seizure-alert dogs I know! :lol: :lol: 

What a crew! Do they sit for group photos?


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> QUOTE: yesterday alone was a bulldogge, an APBT, two Beauviors, Presas, a Dobie, a Cane Corso, and two flighty Bichons END
> 
> Sounds a little like a group of seizure-alert dogs I know! :lol: :lol:
> 
> What a crew! Do they sit for group photos?


The Dobie, the APBT, and a Presa were doing a combined ob exercise and other stuff. It's fun out there, there's just a ton of different dogs. Never know what to expect. Irina's really good with dogs. Seeing her go from ob with a 120-lb Presa male pup to two 8-pound Bichons is pretty funny, she's excellent.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

I love it!


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I love it!


{keeping this thread off topic, sorry} 
It's cool for someone new to it like me. They will work most any legit dog in a bunch of different styles, though I have Annie doing foundational ring stuff right now (high jump, distance jump, leg bites) and that seems to be where most of the club is centered. Some PSA stuff and they do protection stuff at other sessions. But in my three-hour timespan yesterday I get to see all these different dogs at different stages in development and then she'll yank a few out of the kennel she's working for owners...and then the more serious dogs. So like yesterday I got to see everything from basic socialization with a submissive-peeing Bichon up to an FRI Bouvier doing face attacks and defense of handler. Across all those breeds, you learn a ton. Mark is excellent at working different dogs and switching in and out of decoy strategies and they are very nice folks to talk to. Only regret that I can't spend more time out there. It's a very welcoming environment, Annie would stay there if I'd let her. I like everything about their program so far...fair corrections, lots of play, have fun and build up your dog properly. They encourage everybody to walk around and talk and get the dogs used to working around distraction, lots of good basic fundamental stuff, and then let you apply it based on your needs and interests.

Should probably stress that the socialization stuff with nervy dogs is not part of the session, they just bring them out, tell folks what's up with them, and let the dogs hang out while the work happens.

And wow, those Presas are impressive to watch. What a blast those things are!


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

edit


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

> Schut was a great test for dogs at one time.It is a great sport for humans now.


Greg, what was the difference between SCH now and then you mean? I agree this debate between sport and "real" dogs is a bit tiresome :? I think the biggest difference between the sport and servicedogs is how they are raised, otherwise you wouldn´t find both servicedogs and sportdogs from the same lines/litters,right? Also, I would say there are quite many breeders who breeds for dogs that could do both sport and real work, and not focusing only on sport, some are even concentrated on servicedogs foremost, at least in here in Sweden


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

greg,

you talk about the whole sport dog/work dog thing. i think in all fairness, you should tell us what work your dogs actually do. i don't think you're a police officer. i'm pretty sure they aren't SAR dogs. so what do they do for "work"?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Woody, the only way to get better is to screw up. You are gonna anyway, so who cares? The best trainers are the ones that screw up the least. Video is an excellent way to critique your handling skills and, well, everything else. 



Quote: I think the biggest difference between the sport and servicedogs is how they are raised,

Sorry, need to interject here. While piss poor environment could make a slight difference, serious dogs are serious dogs whether you train them to be or not. I have had and trained serious dogs, and avoided any kind of "defence on purpose" training and they would still hurt you if they got a chance. Training doesn't make that much difference in that regard.


Koi, so you have your dog going up ladders???


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

> Video is an excellent way to critique your handling skills and, well, everything else.


For real. Look at MY videos, for example.


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

Jeff, I meant that a dog could have similar genetics but due to work the dog are supposed to do you train them different and in different scenarios.


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## Greg Long (Mar 27, 2006)

Tim,

My dogs are pets. :lol: Really...thats there "job".Although I do sell some to LE and other trainers to do "real work".I seldom keep a dog past 18 months old.I just try not to screw them up too bad for the real trainers.

Im just expressing my opinion.I have explained I dont have as much experience as some before.That doesnt make me any less correct.. 8) 

Eric,

Schut used to be a test only and not a sport where everyone competed against each other.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Woody, the only way to get better is to screw up. You are gonna anyway, so who cares? The best trainers are the ones that screw up the least. Video is an excellent way to critique your handling skills and, well, everything else.


OUCHH..but so very, very true. Now after about 6 yrs training I just make weekly mistakes instead of daily


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## Robert Blok (Jul 26, 2006)

> The best trainers are the ones that screw up the least.



WOW.....I 've forgotten how this whole discussion started :roll: 
Jeff, I think the best trainers (by whose standards :?: ) are those that learn from their mistakes and adjust their training protocol.


> To all participants of this lenghty post:


The value of this forum, like many forums, is that we can also learn from other's mistakes. We don't have to agree, but just try to understand :wink: We all have different ways to express ourselves due to our culture, upbring, ego, language etc. What you do with your dog is based on what you want to achieve, your breed, training/time availability and level of seriousness your willing to apply. 
I personally learn something from most of the contributors in one shape or form. It's what you do with the information that really matters and will ultimately make you a better trainer. You decide if it is positive or negative. Take what you can use out of this forum but try to leave a good atmosphere. 
Regards Robert


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Robert Blok said:


> Take what you can use out of this forum but try to leave a good atmosphere. ...


A great thing to keep in mind. Thank you!


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Greg Long said:


> Tim,
> 
> Im just expressing my opinion.I have explained I dont have as much experience as some before.That doesnt make me any less correct.. 8)


no, no, no. that wasn't what i meant to imply. i'm sorry if it came across that way. it just seemed like you are pretty opinionated on "sport dog" vs. "working dog" and i just wanted to know what you based your opinion on. that's all...

i honestly would love to try what you and al do with a puppy. especially one that isn't a genetic dynamo (if i got my hands on a genetic dynamo, i think i'd play it "safe" and do things the "old fashioned way"). i've never had a puppy so i don't have any experience to draw from. i've always gotten my dogs at 2+ years old and pick up from wherever the last guy left off. that's the one big drawback about being a K9 officer. we completely miss out on all the puppy and development stuff...


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Tim Martens said:


> that's the one big drawback about being a K9 officer. we completely miss out on all the puppy and development stuff...


Most officers I talk to like the fact that they get their dogs at working age and don't have to deal with the up's and down's of puppyhood training :lol: Personally I like puppies, once they settle into their lifestyle and routine they are alot of fun if you have the patience to deal with them.


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## Colin Chin (Sep 20, 2006)

Lyn Chen said:


> Connie, ditto on the misconceptions on motivational teaching. I find that tugs and treats are useful NOT in making a dog to obey--you can do that without these tools--but in getting the dog into a certain mindset when working. Whether or not this 'mindset' is useful to you is your call--fast, relaxed, stress-free obedience that may be required of the dog for an extended amount of time, some call it 'flashy', but then it's also the same techniques used for detection dogs...it has nothing whatsoever to do with whether the dog will obey you or not without them. They will. As Al likes to put it, it's ingrained in the dog's whole being already.
> 
> I find Al's techniques more as an exercise than as a 'principle', and they're very useful in tightening the bond between me and my tug-addicted dog. :twisted: It doesn't mean the technique 'created' the bond or filled in gaps that weren't there...it's just something different and challenging for us. You'd be able to say the same thing with the 'other' method...the Schutzhund heel and the dumbbell retrieve is not as easy as it looks!
> 
> ...


Hello Lyn,
Can I summarise of what you've written here as what I believe or being taught as "the contact point between the handler and dog or the balance point between you and your dog' ? Cheers.


Regards,
Colin


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## Colin Chin (Sep 20, 2006)

Andres Martin said:


> Please guys and gals...
> ...don't f&[l< it up.
> 
> THERE IS NO NEED TO BE EVEN A *TINY* BIT JUDGEMENTAL.
> ...


Hello Andres,
I can't agree with any more than of what you have had written here. We are from different cultures, differrent continents, different colour of skin, but we all shed the same colour of blood ie RED. We are here to contribute and share our working dogs experiences, so cheer up guys, you have got nothing to loose at the end of the day if you look hard enough. The working dogs community is already small enough, please don't cause it to scatter like loose sand. Cheers.


Regards,
Colin


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## Greg Long (Mar 27, 2006)

Tim Martens said:


> Greg Long said:
> 
> 
> > Tim,
> ...


 I dont really like working with puppies but I dont trust anyone else to put the foundation on them.
You have to realize something about puppies,they are constantly learning.They do not just "play alot".They are learning even when we arent there.They are learning while they are in their crate.they learn a whole bunch about us when they are present but we arent really thinking about them.If fact we probably teach them alot more just by them observing than when we are trying to "teach" them something.Thus the following of the handler is one of the most effective training excercises for the young pup.
To not work with a young pup is to let them learn, for the most part,useless information.Why wouldnt you want the pup to learn useful things early?To wait till they are one year is crazy.Of course you have to have a little common sense and not overdo it.
I am amused by people making a difference between "imprinting" and "Training".If you make these types of distinctions while training then you are thinking about it too much.
I was just told by a friend this weekend about a 4 month old pup that was doing off lead searches for explosives.The pup was very intense and into the work.Now why wouldnt you want a pup working like that at 4 months?By the time many people start training,this pup would be on the street.
Another thing I might add.If you have to make it a point to "socialize" I dont think you are spending enough time with your pup.I know its not possible for many to do this.If thats the case the pup is much better off with someone who can.


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## Jose Alberto Reanto (Apr 6, 2006)

Real nice points, Greg...


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Am I the only person having trouble "editing" today? First, to me the best thing about the video is the pups are having to solve the problem, which is fantastic.

Wow, just when it seems the fire is going out, someone gets riled up again! What is going on? Lerts all be forced to hold hands & sing three choruses of "Koom Bai Yaa" (sp incorrect). I agree with Connie, something is getting lost in the translation.

I agree with those who said they are tired of hearing "Well, yours must not be a REAL dog, if you use him for sport". The other tacky one is "My dog is too HARD for sport, can't be titled". I realize no one HERE has said that and I want to thank you for not bringing up that sorry excuse.

A lot of us here do not train puppies. We let them grow up first & wait until they mature to train them. I'm not saying either way is better, it is just what works for me. I love reading other peoples methods & have incorporated a lot of stuff & discarded others. So if you want to do "circus trick" please do. (just kidding). Anyway thanks for sharing the video, it was really good.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Al and I made up a page ago. 

Oh and maybe some words aren´t right chosen ("circusdogs"), but i translate directly from dutch. In dutch I´m straight foward, so in my english to..I ain´t that good in subtle language, not in dutch and certainly not in english. Al and i both have to translate from a different language (and different culture), no wonder sometimes things are misunderstand.

Our points of view just are very different and debate about that isn´t anything wrong with.


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## Robert Blok (Jul 26, 2006)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Al and I made up a page ago.
> 
> Oh and maybe some words aren´t right chosen ("circusdogs"), but i translate directly from dutch. In dutch I´m straight foward, so in my english to..I ain´t that good in subtle language, not in dutch and certainly not in english. Al and i both have to translate from a different language (and different culture), no wonder sometimes things are misunderstand.
> 
> Our points of view just are very different and debate about that isn´t anything wrong with.


Selena, just the point I made. I have been there and done that, just a few more years of it, so I understand where both you and Al are coming from. Hence my previous respons. Not a big issue, people just need to understand that we are a "global" forum and need to understand the differences.
All in all this is turning into an extended debate. :lol: Good for this forum!
Robert


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Of course, "Circus" means "Prostitute" in Dutch, not sure what we do with that and whether Al wants to reconsider making up now. Lots of circusgirls in Amsterdam.


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## Robert Blok (Jul 26, 2006)

Woody Taylor said:


> Of course, "Circus" means "Prostitute" in Dutch, not sure what we do with that and whether Al wants to reconsider making up now. Lots of circusgirls in Amsterdam.



Not sure what dictionary you use Woody :roll: I suggest you get a "real" one and translate your post. :? Doesn't make much sense to me, in fact that is what I would call "Double Dutch" :wink: :wink: 

Robert


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Robert Blok said:


> Not sure what dictionary you use Woody :roll: I suggest you get a "real" one and translate your post. :? Doesn't make much sense to me, in fact that is what I would call "Double Dutch" :wink: :wink:
> 
> Robert


Just a little joke, Robert. A little one.


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## Jose Alberto Reanto (Apr 6, 2006)

My clients and everyone that have known me are aware that I only entertain individuals or groups who have serious needs for dogs; matured, disciplined, possesses good judgement and with *deep respect for humanity*. Though a dog thru its invaluable services has endeared itself to man, I nonetheless consider them as beasts, and placed in the wrong and undisciplined hands can be very dangerous and can inflict lifelong damages to humans. 

What I seek for in a client I must first see in me. A sudden overreaction to a post, no matter how ill-intent and careless it may seem, only shows weakness of character, which is very detrimental to dog training specially if one favors serious dogs. For as long as good reasoning is possible, then that must prevail. 

As for the videoclip, well, the pups themselves have spoken. My beliefs are simply hinged on what the dog really is when placed in the work that not so long ago served humans well. 

Best regards...


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

It's the internet, Al. You are overreacting. It was settled, let it stay settled. Letting it carry on is equally weak. Your point was made and that's sufficient. No need to extrapolate out this thread to indictments of character...particularly someone who's life's work, and family's work, are dogs widely acknowledged as some of the best here.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jose Alberto Reanto said:


> ....A sudden overreaction to a post, no matter how ill-intent and careless it may seem, only shows weakness of character..


Yep, and I can't think of many who haven't exposed that little flaw at least once. :lol: :wink:


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

duplicate


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Jose Alberto Reanto said:
> 
> 
> > ....A sudden overreaction to a post, no matter how ill-intent and careless it may seem, only shows weakness of character..
> ...


was he talking about himself?


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## Colin Chin (Sep 20, 2006)

Tim Martens said:


> Connie Sutherland said:
> 
> 
> > Jose Alberto Reanto said:
> ...


Tim,
Please. You know what I mean. 


Regards,
Colin


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

are colin and al the same person? i didn't quote you or reply to you. why would you address me?


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## Colin Chin (Sep 20, 2006)

Tim Martens said:


> are colin and al the same person? i didn't quote you or reply to you. why would you address me?


Tim,
I quote you because I read your posting. Correct me if I am wrong, I am ok with it. This forum's intended purpose is to talk and discuss about working dog training. Somehow things have gotten off bearing.
BTW, I am Colin Chin.

Regards,
Colin


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Robert Blok said:


> ........I personally learn something from most of the contributors in one shape or form. It's what you do with the information that really matters and will ultimately make you a better trainer. You decide if it is positive or negative. Take what you can use out of this forum but try to leave a good atmosphere.
> Regards Robert


Still a terrific sentiment!

Anything that has no dogs in it -- is way past "getting old." :wink:


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## Robert Blok (Jul 26, 2006)

> Just a little joke, Robert. A little one.


[/quote]


Woody, would we call that a "circus clown" :lol: :lol: :lol: 
Sorry Woody..., just trying to keep this a bit lighthearted :wink:  
This post is getting far too serious.
Have a great day,
Robert


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## Robert Blok (Jul 26, 2006)

duplicate post


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Robert Blok said:


> Woody, would we call that a "circus clown" :lol: :lol: :lol:
> Sorry Woody..., just trying to keep this a bit lighthearted :wink:


Robert, I readily admit being a prostitute to comedy. No harm done. :wink:


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