# A puppy



## Guest

Like a Hurricane, e-litter female. Belongs to my training partner, so I'll be seeing a lot of her from now on. 

http://www.likeahurricane.nl//?L=EN&P=5&S=8 

Couple days after getting her: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngKKtZcsdEk

Thanks Carmen!


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## Mike Schoonbrood

What a great lookin pup! Is she for sale?


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## Anna Kasho

Don't you just love how her tail is ALWAYS up? 

Looking forward to seeing more of her in the future!


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## Connie Sutherland

Look at her dash up those stairs in the middle of the banging and "thunder"!

And yes, that TAIL!  8)


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## Timothy Stacy

It's hard to find a Malinois female with nerve like hers. She is very nice!!!!


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## kendra velazquez

Your welcome Tim!!!! glad you like her!


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## Carol Boche

Excellent little bitch....nice drives!!!!

Somebody is VERY LUCKY!!!!!


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## Timothy Stacy

That video is old (from yesterday)!!! Here is one from tonight.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OQPq9hb_Kw&feature=channel


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## Denise Picicci

Tim, Nice looking pup. Since this is your 4th Mal do you think this one will be titled? :razz: :razz:


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## Denise Picicci

Hey, this is the pup that Kendra sold you. I just realized that.


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## Timothy Stacy

Hi Denise. Don't know what that means. Is there time limits or is it a race? My dogs really don't care if they get titles and neither do I.


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## Connie Sutherland

Denise Picicci said:


> Tim, Nice looking pup. Since this is your 4th Mal do you think this one will be titled? :razz: :razz:


What is this about?

I'm sure it must be something else besides what it sounds like to me.


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## Timothy Stacy

Unfortunately I'll probably have to sell her after I finish her foundation work. I do have interest but talk is talk. Really wish I could keep her. Hopefully she'll stay close by.


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## Gerry Grimwood

Nice, like 10 weeks old and looking for the third owner already. Really nice.


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## kendra velazquez

No she is 13 weeks old and she is a nice bicth. she just needs the right person!


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## ann schnerre

can we NOT GO THERE? i mean really--if there're problems here between people, keep them between people. they don't need to be aired on this forum (IMO)!!! 

that is a pretty little girl (for a Mal )


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## Timothy Stacy

No worries Gerry she has been well taken care of her entire life and is getting worked and socialized everyday!


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## Gerry Grimwood

Timothy Stacy said:


> No worries Gerry she has been well taken care of her entire life and is getting worked and socialized everyday!


** gone to PMs **


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## Connie Sutherland

ann freier said:


> --if there're problems here between people, keep them between people. they don't need to be aired on this forum .....


And if they are, they will be deleted.




ann freier said:


> .... that is a pretty little girl ...


She is indeed!


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## kendra velazquez

this is her working at 11 weeks old and me and Tim are fine !http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODvT9pca764&feature=channel_page


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## kendra velazquez

first leg bite at 11 weeks oldhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3dO9OQfv7I&feature=channel_page


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## Timothy Stacy

_Did you go to bed Gerry?

_


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## Konnie Hein

The movement of the camera in some of those videos made my head spin. I also thought the camera person was going to jump off the back of the bleachers!:grin:

Cute pup though - looks like a precocious little thing! Would love to see more video as she matures.


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## Candy Eggert

Timothy Stacy said:


> Unfortunately I'll probably have to sell her after I finish her foundation work. I do have interest but talk is talk. Really wish I could keep her. Hopefully she'll stay close by.


You can just put that puppy on airplane to me right now :smile: No foundation training required! 

Sincerely curious why she'd be for sale? My young dog is related to her (a Apollian son out of Aha X Umi),


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## Timothy Stacy

** deleted **

To PMs


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## Gerry Grimwood

Timothy Stacy said:


> _Did you go to bed Gerry?_


No, I got the pm's and understand your point of view. 

** Remainder deleted. To PMs. **


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## Timothy Stacy

The pup is very nice and I'm done and going to bed.


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## Connie Sutherland

Konnie Hein said:


> ..... Would love to see more video as she matures.


Me too. :grin:


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## Bob Scott

Just what a pup should be! I like it!


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## Michelle Reusser

Super pup, too stable for a Malinois LOL. I think she has a thing for the camera man, she kept waiting for him and running back. Very pretty little girl and I love what you are doing with her, the environmental stuff is great. I'd take her and I hate Malinois!


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## Guest

Mainly just looking for an excuse to share a picture of a very patient dog demonstrating his metaphysical puppy repelling powers. BAH-ne-ne-ne-ne-ne-ne-ne (six million dollar man noise).


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## Connie Sutherland

That's great! :lol: :lol:


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## kendra velazquez

She looks good Steven! I love the one on the rock!


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## Connie Sutherland

kendra velazquez said:


> She looks good Steven! I love the one on the rock!


You mean with the completely crazed puppy expression? :lol: :lol:


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## Carol Boche

B-e-a-u-t-i-f-u-l!!!!


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## Anna Kasho

She looks GREAT!

Send some of that metaphysical puppy repellent over my way, please... Her sister is a lil' punk and the boys'll let her get away with murder...8-[:razz:


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## Timothy Stacy

Nice pictures Steve. She looks like she is really trying to get a response out of that GSD.


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## Connie Sutherland

Timothy Stacy said:


> Nice pictures Steve. She looks like she is really trying to get a response out of that GSD.



Yes! Like "pay attention to ME, dammit!"


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## Debbie High

She is beautiful! What are your favorite things about her regarding drives/ thresholds/temperament? Are you happy with her training progress?

Best of luck with her.

Debbie


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## Bob Scott

She's got that 'evil intent" look in her eyes. 
Love it!


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## Xavier Neme

Hello, Congrats on your pup!!!
I saw Evgeny in Belgium a few months ago, Marc Daems from Nierlenders kennel is a good friend, and his dogs are top quality - Evgeny is a great dog (super confident but not social AT ALL...). 
Good luck with her.


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## Guest

Debbie High said:


> She is beautiful! What are your favorite things about her regarding drives/ thresholds/temperament? Are you happy with her training progress?
> 
> Best of luck with her.
> 
> Debbie


 
-Social/noise/environmental confidence are good when not in drive. Maybe even noteworthy. Better than my german shepherd.

-Center-mass kind of dog. She's not into carrying equipment for any meaningful period of time, certainly no running off the field with it. The entertainment of bitework lies with the interaction, not the equipment so much.

-Grip is deep and pushing. Could be harder though. Used to be content to let go with her mouth and just hump if the appendage wasn't reasonably active. :-s

-Food drive is almost non-existent....slow start with obedience. Things are picking up with toys, however.

-Neutral ground, everyone is worth happily launching herself into. Near the house...loses her sense of humor completely.

I think she was last pick, so I really had no expectations. But every aspect has been on the up, and we're just now rounding 6 months so we'll see where she peaks.


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## Anna Kasho

What happened? I must say I am very surprised to see her listed on the ABMC website now? Spayed already and lacks drive and focus?


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## Guest

I got a couple similar inquiries in the form of private e-mails.

Somehow they got the sense that the reason(s) might include personal ones I wouldn't be inclined to casually share in a venue like this.

They were right!


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## Jeff Oehlsen

WTF is an ABMC ?? And what happened to your bitch ???


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## Guest

What the hell did I just say?

](*,)


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Don't be such a baby.


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## Carmen van de Kamp

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> WTF is an ABMC ?? And what happened to your bitch ???



ABMC is a malinois rescue organisation
and Elena is on there for a new home (just found out via other people) and she is spayed already,

the reason I decided not to sell to the states anymore (expect for reservations already made) is clear with what is happening and happened with Elena, this is a breeders "nightmare" and it just isn't easy/possible/fair to the dog (flight and everything) to get her back over here and offer the same conditions as one would do with a pup bred that is sold in the same country....

but I do know that also close by people can fool you, only it is easier when the distance is bigger and I don't want to have to deal with this again in this way....so my choice is that (2 or 3 pups still on the list) in the future I will not be selling overseas anymore....


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Then again, imagine the owners nightmare of paying for a pup from overseas and the dog doesn't cut it.

I have seen so many pups coming from overseas that never worked out, that if the breeder was here, the dog would be sent back.

The bottom line is that some pups just don't work out. I have had pups that there was nothing that went wrong, and the dog just didn't pan out.

Your response of "I am not going to sell overseas" is just goofy. If you had such a demand over there, you would not be selling here in the first place.

I would imagine that this is not the first time this has happened to you. If it is, then you have been really really lucky.


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## Denise Picicci

3 owners, now rescue and not even a yr old, very sad for the dog.


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## Lacey Vessell

Any pup - purchased here or in the US is a crapshoot. When a person reserves/purchases a last pick pup (because the others were already sold long before even being born) on the day that it is born....then you know the odds just might not be in your favor. Having dealt with Carmen myself - on more then one puppy (Zane and one from the E Litter for a friend), I can say that she is very very honest about her evaluation of each puppy and I believe she gave her honest evaluation of *that *pup *BEFORE* it was ever shipped.

I'm of the opinion - whether in writing or not - kind of a common courtesy thing - that a breeder should be, at the very least notified when such things happen rather then find out from someone who just happened to be looking at the Rescue page. Four different homes in how many months? That's just sad.....

I guess I'm just not a *real *protection sport person - as it disgusts me to see how easily dogs are just discarded and disposed of.](*,)


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## kendra velazquez

NOTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT SHARP?????? BITES????? I feel for the dog I hope she going to a nice PETTTTTTTTTTTTTT home!!! Opps Some ones out of ALOT of money on that SHARP pup that bites Opps did I say that out loud\\/


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## Connie Sutherland

kendra velazquez said:


> NOTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT SHARP?????? BITES????? I feel for the dog I hope she going to a nice PETTTTTTTTTTTTTT home!!! Opps Some ones out of ALOT of money on that SHARP pup that bites Opps did I say that out loud\\/


Wow. It's hard to see what a little dancy smiley-face or this jokey post has to do with this thread. I must've missed something. :-(


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## kendra velazquez

its for lacey sorry Connie


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## Carmen van de Kamp

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Then again, imagine the owners nightmare of paying for a pup from overseas and the dog doesn't cut it.
> 
> I have seen so many pups coming from overseas that never worked out, that if the breeder was here, the dog would be sent back.


the first owner could have gotten 2nd pick from a future litter if there was just found a good home for her and not only a home that wanted to pay the $$$ she wanted (more then pupprice), so she must have had "something" as a dog that has nothing you will not ask (and get) 1000$ for, the moment I heard that my offer to give her an other puppy because this one didnt work out for her was over, hope you understand that
and the money part was dealt with with the one paying for her to get her away from Kendra, so I guess I did what I could as a breeder


> The bottom line is that some pups just don't work out. I have had pups that there was nothing that went wrong, and the dog just didn't pan out.
> 
> Your response of "I am not going to sell overseas" is just goofy. If you had such a demand over there, you would not be selling here in the first place.


the last one is your opinion, my vision is that everyone has a fair shot at getting a good pup and if someone makes reservations 2 years before than I dont give that spot to someone here in Holland (at least that was in the past)

My foundation female was bought (from France) with help from a friend (breeder) from Canada, so maybe that is also the main reason that I wanted to keep the relationships with other countries overseas at a good level and not do what a load of breeders do and only send shit that way (because YES I know that there are breeders that do that)


> I would imagine that this is not the first time this has happened to you. If it is, then you have been really really lucky.


than I was really really lucky I guess

and for the others, she had after Kendra 2 different homes but only because Steve was on holiday or so, because when she was picked up at Kendra's it was already the intention that she would go to Steve, so that isnt my concern

and as for spaying, it is still too young, but in your situation and with replacing her it could be the best option as it isnt possible to be sure that she will not be dissapearing in a breeding program and isnt an option either....so for that I thank Steve...


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## Jeff Oehlsen

So what you are saying is that you have never had this situation happen in all the year(s) that you are breeding ?? That is absolutely incredible. Nice job.

I think that eventually, the chickens come home to roost, and this stuff happens.

Quote: My foundation female was bought (from France) with help from a friend (breeder) from Canada, so maybe that is also the main reason that I wanted to keep the relationships with other countries overseas at a good level and not do what a load of breeders do and only send shit that way (because YES I know that there are breeders that do that)

THis is very true. Years ago, I had a German gentleman send me a dog, but not the one I had chosen. I had done business with him several times before, and thought he was reputable.

I still think you are being silly for making it so that your dogs are not available to people here. The dog is in a home, not in foster care, and will be placed to a responsible home. What is the big deal ?? 

We have silly ****ers all over the place screwing up dogs, so do you in EU.

I remember the story of the frenchman who took his dog to trial in the trunk of his car. The dog won the trial, and he took the dog, put it in the trunk of the car and went and got drunk. The dog died.

How about the first time, years ago, that I was told how to train the pallisade. They put on a sharpened pinch, and drag the dog over if he does not jump it correctly. I heard it from one idiot, and saw it from another, both from EU. 

I gots lots and lots more of these stories let me tells you. Nasty business this dog thing.


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## Timothy Stacy

Denise Picicci said:


> 3 owners, now rescue and not even a yr old, very sad for the dog.


Where did your male go Denise LOL. Having the dog for a week is considered ownership? It was her 2nd owner!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Where did your male go? Oh, got rid of it huh. Out w/ the old in with the new. LOL:-({|=:-({|=:-({|=:-({|=:-({|=:-({|=:-({|=:-({|=:-({|=
Before you talk maybe you should ask where the dog currently is, it's not in a shelter


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## Timothy Stacy

This 4 different home thing is just f***ing BS . Wow 2 weeks w/ the first owner and one week w/ me. How does a fickle puppy get over it???
I'd consider it her 1st home actually. What a horrible life this dog has. 
-----Steve still brings her everywhere still. 
-----Eats raw, WOW you mean she isn't starving to death
-----She goes swimming w/ them more than my dogs have ever swam
-----Still try's working her
-----Spayed her so a breeder doesn't just have interest in her status as a "IMPORT"
____Lives in the house

God this dog really has it bad.


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## Carmen van de Kamp

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> So what you are saying is that you have never had this situation happen in all the year(s) that you are breeding ?? That is absolutely incredible. Nice job.


this was my 5th litter and yes, honestly, I never had that before, maybe that is why I'm a little sensitive about this....


> I think that eventually, the chickens come home to roost, and this stuff happens.
> 
> Quote: My foundation female was bought (from France) with help from a friend (breeder) from Canada, so maybe that is also the main reason that I wanted to keep the relationships with other countries overseas at a good level and not do what a load of breeders do and only send shit that way (because YES I know that there are breeders that do that)
> 
> This is very true. Years ago, I had a German gentleman send me a dog, but not the one I had chosen. I had done business with him several times before, and thought he was reputable.


for my litter pick from the last litter I send at the last moment an other puppy (not the last pick, but the one I was doubting about and I could do that because 3rd pick (2nd pick wasn't an option as she lost a tooth in a puppy fight and that was all discussed with the new owner and she didn't find it a problem) wasnt ready to fly as the owner had a financial difficulty due to the health of her other malinois and wanted to wait a little bit longer if possible and this puppy was the one I was doubting about in the first place with the litter pick), this because the litter pick had a small heart noise as you can also read on my website, if I didn't had a good replacement for the litter pick (in my eyes, one I already considered for that pick) the new owners would have had to wait or got their money back, I never would have send a puppy with a medical defect (luckily it turned out to be nothing and she overgrew it before her last vaccination, but I did do an ultrasound of the heart to be sure



> I still think you are being silly for making it so that your dogs are not available to people here. The dog is in a home, not in foster care, and will be placed to a responsible home. What is the big deal ??


that decision (not to sell overseas) was already made after what happened with Elena at Kendra's, BUT with the exception of people I already know or with really good and trustworthy references AND you will have to come over to pick your own puppy, I will not put them on transport anymore....
and I didn't know at first that she was still there, how the news got to me it looked like she was in a shelter and that made me a little bit angry....hope you understand that...


> We have silly ****ers all over the place screwing up dogs, so do you in EU.
> 
> I remember the story of the frenchman who took his dog to trial in the trunk of his car. The dog won the trial, and he took the dog, put it in the trunk of the car and went and got drunk. The dog died.
> 
> How about the first time, years ago, that I was told how to train the pallisade. They put on a sharpened pinch, and drag the dog over if he does not jump it correctly. I heard it from one idiot, and saw it from another, both from EU.


yup, I know, lack of IQ is eventually going to kill a big part of the dog sports....because those stupid training methods will stay alive by people who don't have the brains to think about it...


> I gots lots and lots more of these stories let me tells you. Nasty business this dog thing.


I know.....


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## Carmen van de Kamp

Timothy Stacy said:


> This 4 different home thing is just f***ing BS . Wow 2 weeks w/ the first owner and one week w/ me. How does a fickle puppy get over it???
> I'd consider it her 1st home. What a horrible life this dog has.
> -----Steve still brings her everywhere still.
> -----Eats raw, WOW you mean she isn't starving to death
> -----She goes swimming w/ them more than my dogs have ever swam
> -----Still try's working her
> -----Spayed her so a breeder doesn't just have interest in her status as a "IMPORT"
> ____Lives in the house
> 
> God this dog really has it bad.


I know Tim,
as written above, I was shocked as at first I thought she was really in the shelter.....and as also for the spaying, I can only be happy about that as that gives her more chance on a really good and final home....

the only thing that I have to say about it is that I would have liked it that I was informed by you or Steve, but things happened and it is how it is now...


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## Timothy Stacy

Sorry Carmen for not informing you but I was very busy and I really did not think about it since I thought it was the right thing to do when I heard. 
It's nice to see that a breeder from EU cares about a dog she has bred. Says a lot about you.
I understand the first feeling you probably got when you heard the word RESCUE, and it's understandable.


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## Timothy Stacy

Denise Picicci said:


> 3 owners, now rescue and not even a yr old, very sad for the dog.



What I consider sad is when someone leases out a female for breeding and she is left to die in a kennel with pyo until a friend with common sense and compassion goes to pick her up and get her help, since the OWNER would not.


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## Debbie Skinner

Carmen van de Kamp said:


> I know Tim,
> as written above, I was shocked as at first I thought she was really in the shelter.....and as also for the spaying, I can only be happy about that as that gives her more chance on a really good and final home....
> 
> the only thing that I have to say about it is that I would have liked it that I was informed by you or Steve, but things happened and it is how it is now...



I understand as a breeder what you are going through. 

We've gone from no contract (verbal discussion) when I started almost 20 years ago to a 2 pager and now I think it's up to 5 pages to try and cover everything. The contract is still just as good as the people signing it. We have in there though that dogs and bitches must be 1 year or older before they are spayed. 

I think the big problem is people are always testing and looking for fault in young puppies instead of supporting and teaching them and letting them grow up. I haven't seen a problem with others helping me raise puppies and for them to be able to experience many different areas though. Often the co-breeder will whelp the litter, then I'll take the puppies after weaning and then sometimes they go with other friends. 

With the internet and working lists and forums, it is easier to hear about things such as this puppy and like my Drako. I'm not saying Drako and this pup had similar stories...very different stories, but both situations affected breeders emotionally. I think we just hear about it more now, but it's always happened to a % of the dogs and puppies out there.

I do not sell my females for breeding, but even when selling them as pets sometimes people put papers on them and breed them anyways. I don't like early spay/neuter, the alternatives would be to keep all the females or cull them (which is the traditional solution of many Belg breeders).

What lifts my spirits is to remember that the "bad situations" are not as often as the good endings and I do get far more good stories, nice training photos and vids from puppy owners than bad. The good does outweigh the bad and I sometimes just look through the good emails, photos and vids of the puppy buyers to help myself remember all the good people.

My Drako story has had a good ending for him. His life isn't over, but has started a new chapter. I think your little pup may have a bright future..maybe she becomes someone's best friend or a celebrated working dog whether it's scent work, protection, S&R..it's all possible.


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## Debbie Skinner

Timothy Stacy said:


> What I consider sad is when someone leases out a female for breeding and she is left to die in a kennel with pyo until a friend with common sense and compassion goes to pick her up and get her help, since the OWNER would not.



That's horrible. Another reason for me to consider it better to not sell the females for breeding.


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## kendra velazquez

Carmen you told me to find her a home! I did! I asked you first did you want her! you say NO then you told me ya I could get another pup again payshiping and cage and everything else to find out that you go down a list! and pick people that why I have never heard of this most breeders want there pups to go to working homes and thats how they send there pups I also told you many times in E-mails if you DON`T think she is what I`m looking for then DON`T send her and you said she was so sharp that I would have to really work on her and that she was going to be great for ring! So NO I`m not wasting any more money to get another pup that you though was a super nice biteing sharp pup. Plus my vet said to keeping checking her heart it sounded funny (I also told you) So again I did may end and yes I got 900 for her wooohooo after going to the vets two times we can add it all up. think what you want! I`m done whit this Thread!


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## Guest

Maybe an appropriate conclusion to this would be to point out the conspicous absence of messages in my in-box from those who expressed outrage and disappointment... without a ton of details from the source, namely, me.

I feel like I just got passed around in some sort of violent porno. :lol:


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## Carmen van de Kamp

kendra velazquez said:


> Carmen you told me to find her a home! I did! I asked you first did you want her! you say NO then you told me ya I could get another pup again payshiping and cage and everything else to find out that you go down a list! and pick people that why I have never heard of this most breeders want there pups to go to working homes


here they all go to working homes and so all on the list are working homes and yes, if on the list you cannot get "in front of someone" as there are NO not working homes....


> and thats how they send there pups I also told you many times in E-mails if you DON`T think she is what I`m looking for then DON`T send her and you said she was so sharp that I would have to really work on her and that she was going to be great for ring!


yes, she was sharp, what happened with her over there I don't know, but you cannot say in half a day after a little less then 24 hours flying that you dislike the character as the flight does have some influence and that is what you did....


> So NO I`m not wasting any more money to get another pup that you though was a super nice biteing sharp pup.


that would have been your choice if you decided to get her for free to a good home, as that is what would have happened here with a not suited puppy, BUT my dogs get the time to develop first


> Plus my vet said to keeping checking her heart it sounded funny (I also told you)


strange that this came after my honesty about the other heart noises in the litter (2 an both ultra sounded and both grown over it, so "normal" puppy noise) 


> So again I did may end and yes I got 900 for her wooohooo after going to the vets two times we can add it all up. think what you want! I`m done whit this Thread!


again, if she was not suited in your eyes she isn't worth any money and needs to go for free to a good home instead of for more that pupprice....

and Steve, I hope you don't mean me as I did send you a message (maybe it didn't came through?) as I'm sorry for my first reaction to you (as also stated before) as the word rescue made me think she was in a shelter.....and I indeed was a little bit angry to hear from others about this instead of from you or Tim, but that is cleared now, so no hard feelings about that and my offer to Tim still stands, how you and Tim handle that (with the financial part as I now understand you paid her) that is something between you 2 I guess....


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## Guest

Carmen,

You and I, we're fine.

Someone close this ****er.


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## Connie Sutherland

Steven Lepic said:


> Carmen,
> 
> You and I, we're fine.
> 
> Someone close this ****er.



You got it.


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