# 'The Reward' What is the reward in bitework?



## Geoff Empey

Hey those who work dogs with slipping the sleeve or jambiere what behaviour are we rewarding when the sleeve is slipped? 

I've been seeing lots of dogs over the years that always assume that they are going to win the sleeve, jambiere, jacket or pants. Then in trial it creates lots of problems with either outs in SchH or recalls in Ringsport. Have you seen dogs that shouldn't be let to win the sleeve. With these types of dogs what is the reward? 

The more I see the sleeve being slipped out side of real young or green dogs the more I am not so sure I like the practice. 

What do you all think of the practice? What pros and cons do you see with or not slipping the sleeve?


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## Geoff Empey

Sorry about the double post please delete this one I missed the cutoff ..


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## Martine Loots

Except with very young pups, we never slip the sleeve. It encourages pulling in the grip and that is something we don't want.


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## will fernandez

In my arena with young dogs we remove the dog from the bite and chase the decoy away. When the dog is older he will be outed and the decoy will leave the area or be assisted away by the other handlers like on the street. No slipping sleeves or bite jackets.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

How many people even know why they are running in circles ?


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## Bob Scott

Slipping the sleeve is to reward the dog with the sleeve. The more I've thought about it the more useless it seems to me with the older dog. He should be left wanting more engagement with the decoy. JMHO!

The running in circles is to keep the dog from dropping the sleeve or stopping to chew it. If he's moving he wont drop it or stop and chew. 
At least this was I've understood it to be. I've been wrong before. :lol: :wink:


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## Mike Valente

Depending on the goals PP/service work/sport work this to me is either a transitional stage in bite work for young dogs or in some sport the sleeve is the primary focus, getting the sleeve is the reward IMO. Circling is sort of the victory dance after winning and a way to cool off between execises and build confidance. It all boils down to the nature of the bitework and weather the sleeve is the main focus or simply a training tool. A true sport dog is focused on the sleeve, a true PP/service dog is focussed on the man and the sleeve is just an obsticle in his way it should have no value only a way for the decoy to protect himself. If evaluating a dog for the first time giving him the sleeve and increasing pressure will tell you right away what type dog your dealing with, IMO.


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## will fernandez

The question should be what is the actual reward.. the act of biting or the sleeve/jacket? I think the fullfilment of drives by biting is more interesting than the actual sleeve.


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## Kara Fitzpatrick

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> How many people even know why they are running in circles ?


not me. it's dizzying.


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## Mike Valente

will fernandez said:


> The question should be what is the actual reward.. the act of biting or the sleeve/jacket? I think the fullfilment of drives by biting is more interesting than the actual sleeve.


I agree, I think it depends on the individual dog and why its biting, out of prey or defense. If more out of prey I think it wants to win the prey and getting the sleeve is the reward, if more out of defense then its simply the joy of biting, so making him work more for the bite in this case before getting the reward, IMO.


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## will fernandez

I think a highly driven prey dog will enjoy the bite more just that it will satisfy its desire with the first thing it can get in its mouth. When I say this you have to understand that I deal alot more with prey dogs than defensive one


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## Don Turnipseed

If I did bitework, I imagine the highest reward possible would be for the dog to do a great job. To me, there just couldn't be a better reward. :grin: Just didn't want to let y'all down.


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## Chris McDonald

This will be an interesting thread. I never understood the whole slipping the sleeve thing. Really don’t care if people do or don’t just don’t understand why or see a reason for it. But man I got to admit I am really confused when they run in a few circles. When I see that I just think that a trainer told someone they didn’t like that is what you are supposed to do to make them look stupid and it caught on. I always thought the dog just getting to bite could be considered the reward. But I think im with Don with the dog just wanting to do a good job. I think that was what he was getting at. So is that really why they run in circles? 
And can someone go see if Dons dogs will bite you? Someone with a bite suit has to be kinda close to him. Id like to see some more video of your dogs Don.


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## Dominic D'Ambrosio

If trained correctly, the bite itself is the reward. For real training the sleeve is never slipped.


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## Shade Whitesel

What about possession? Does slipping the sleeve encourage the dog to be more possessive over it's "prey" and feel like it won? To be competitive with the helper? Just an idea.
I was actually taught that it cycles the dog down from the fight. Fight the guy, win the sleeve, run in circles, dog calms down, is able to out with minimal conflict. Young dog training, cycling the drive up down sort of thing. 
I think there are dogs that care more about the initial strike and then others that like the holding and fighting of the sleeve or suit. So for the initial strike dog, the slipping the sleeve wouldn't mean much as a reward.


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## Dominic D'Ambrosio

Shade Whitesel said:


> What about possession? Does slipping the sleeve encourage the dog to be more possessive over it's "prey" and feel like it won? To be competitive with the helper? Just an idea.
> I was actually taught that it cycles the dog down from the fight. Fight the guy, win the sleeve, run in circles, dog calms down, is able to out with minimal conflict. Young dog training, cycling the drive up down sort of thing.
> I think there are dogs that care more about the initial strike and then others that like the holding and fighting of the sleeve or suit. So for the initial strike dog, the slipping the sleeve wouldn't mean much as a reward.


Good question Shane. My father always taugh me that in a COMBAT situation you want all possession on the decoy. Basically you want the dog owning the man, not the material.


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## Chris McDonald

Dominic D'Ambrosio said:


> If trained correctly, the bite itself is the reward. For real training the sleeve is never slipped.


Right, just in fake training


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## Kara Fitzpatrick

Shade Whitesel said:


> What about possession? Does slipping the sleeve encourage the dog to be more possessive over it's "prey" and feel like it won? To be competitive with the helper? Just an idea.


I think Michael Ellis wrote something about this if I'm not mistaken... 
don't know if there's anything about him talking about it on the internet though. 

Circling and giving the my dog the sleeve makes her more possessive... it can be good and bad. 

it's like saying "you did good" when the sleeve is slipped, you fought it so you can have it kind of thing. teaching them that they can win... 

i agree it should be used more with young dogs... build confidence, let them win. 
but idk about adult dogs, good discussion. maybe when you are just teaching something new? mmm


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## Mike Scheiber

For Schutzhund for young dogs its catching and fighting the prey then possessing it/the reward.
Later when there "big dogs" the battle/sparing with the helper the fight and rage is channeled into the sleeve if done correctly and depending on the temperament of the dog caring is not so much.
Dog should want to out and get back at the helper.
I prefur my dog when done working to take the sleeve away or I end up geting nailed by him if he dont have the sleeve I have to give him the leash to bite I dont like getting bit and I damn sure aint going to corect him for this behavior it only happens after bite work and I can deal with that.


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## Dominic D'Ambrosio

Mike Scheiber said:


> I prefur my dog when done working to take the sleeve away or I end up geting nailed by him if he dont have the sleeve I have to give him the leash to bite I dont like getting bit and I damn sure aint going to corect him for this behavior it only happens after bite work and I can deal with that.


you need to get control. Have you ever used a electronic collar?


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## Mike Scheiber

Dominic D'Ambrosio said:


> you need to get control. Have you ever used a electronic collar?


I have 100% total control on the field and of course I use electric. If my dog makes a mistake its my mistake and a error in my training.
I see no benefit for him for me to heel him to the car when done training.


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## Dave Colborn

Mike Scheiber said:


> I have 100% total control on the field and of course I use electric. If my dog makes a mistake its my mistake and a error in my training.
> I see no benefit for him for me to heel him to the car when done training.



Isn't there a benefit with heeling off the field so the dog learns that the routine starts at the car and ends at the car, so when you are in a trial and about to get critiqued, he doesn't think about running to the car with a sleeve in his mouth? Or worse yet, hanging off your arm while the critique is going on?


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## Jim Nash

Dominic D'Ambrosio said:


> You want to call me these names like a child, I'll look some up in the ambrosionary who ever you are Foul-tasting slitwallet, Cabbage-draped Peetrap,Rubber-loined dungwhore.


The French Taunter ! That's a classic !


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## Dave Colborn

I like the practice of slipping the sleeve, even for young adults. 

Everyone will agree. An eight week old puppy won't win a fight with a man. Just won't. Most adult dogs won't really win the fight either, against a determined attacker. I am not calling todays dogs weak, I am just saying that someone willing to take a bite will be able to kill a dog if he keeps his wits about him and the handler doesn't stay in the fight and help the dog. 

Dogs are just a tool. It is our job to get them as strong as they can be so that if they can win the fight they will. Think about the 8 week old pup. Do we do hundred yard courage tests? No, we build him up. Same with the young adult, we progressively make a fight harder and more stressful for the young adults. Show them that their fight brought to the decoy gets them a win. Stress is cumulative and if you don't let the dog relieve it, you can have a train wreck of a dog in no time. Relief can be done civiling a dog and running away, or with a slipped sleeve after a lot of fight has been brought to the dog and he has done well. It can be a simple turn of the body from frontal pressure to carrying the dog off your hip. drive channeling. Going from prey to defense back to prey. 


As far as carrying the sleeve, if the dog is very defensive and you are trying to bring out a little more prey, letting the dog carry can help this. Calm the dog. Let them know that when they are biting, they are not in a life or death struggle all the time. You can turn a sleeve carry into coming back at the decoy with another sleeve. Start trading equipment and making the fight with the man more valuable. 

my humble opinion


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## Mike Scheiber

Dave Colborn said:


> Isn't there a benefit with heeling off the field so the dog learns that the routine starts at the car and ends at the car, so when you are in a trial and about to get critiqued, he doesn't think about running to the car with a sleeve in his mouth? Or worse yet, hanging off your arm while the critique is going on?


I did say done training.
Its after he is freed up that he blows out this frustration behaviors he dose and will heel to his critique and from there to the car when I get to the car and release him I better have something for him to bite or a leash on him to keep him off me or to bite on if he still loaded up. Chances he's going to be settled if I make him down for some time and release and he wont be so whipped up.
When training I like him to leave the field hot and angry, wanting more. Schutzhund is all about control letting him have this freedom when done working I think is good for this dogs head and I know how to avoid getting any holes in me so I let him be.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Stress is cumulative and if you don't let the dog relieve it, you can have a train wreck of a dog in no time.

Or will weed out the dogs that should not be working, OR says something about the training that you do. LOL


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## Dave Colborn

Mike Scheiber said:


> I did say done training.
> Its after he is freed up that he blows out this frustration behaviors he dose and will heel to his critique and from there to the car when I get to the car and release him I better have something for him to bite or a leash on him to keep him off me or to bite on if he still loaded up. Chances he's going to be settled if I make him down for some time and release and he wont be so whipped up.
> When training I like him to leave the field hot and angry, wanting more.


I am with you keeping him loaded up "hot and angry" after you are done. Do you proof that before trial day, where you run through a critique, etc?? I want my dog to think car to car for attention and control. then he isn't thinking about pissing, etc.. This failed me at my last trial, but i altered my routine slightly and I blame myself.


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## Mike Scheiber

Dave Colborn said:


> I am with you keeping him loaded up "hot and angry" after you are done. Do you proof that before trial day, where you run through a critique, etc?? I want my dog to think car to car for attention and control. then he isn't thinking about pissing, etc.. This failed me at my last trial, but i altered my routine slightly and I blame myself.


We do heel on to the field I honestly have not heeled to the car after a critique I shake the Judges hand and release him and I let him bite the leash if he still needs to and we head off for a walk and a drink of water.
Hes trained up pretty good now working on squeaking out a few more points that are there and the small details.


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## Dave Colborn

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Stress is cumulative and if you don't let the dog relieve it, you can have a train wreck of a dog in no time.
> 
> Or will weed out the dogs that should not be working, OR says something about the training that you do. LOL


If you never push them, you never see any stress.....but.....You probably relieve stress in your dogs and don't even know what you are looking at....lol.


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## Shade Whitesel

I train the critique in. Dog gets a bite afterwards. I want my dog thinking he might get a bite at any point, and that bite might just be back at the car after the critique. My dog thinks 5 bites in a Sch 3 routine (am I counting right?) is not enough.


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## Bob Scott

Knock off the bs name calling folks! 
It gets boring fast!


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## Dave Colborn

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBHXNgq-DvU


This is a neat dog. Grip is genetically not all the way there, but the dog smashes hard into whatever is in front of him. We have worked for a few months to get his grip full, got it pretty good on a suit, but it deteriorated with the out some. So, we are letting him unwind, bite, get a little stick put on him set the grip and then slip. Kind of goes with this thread. This dog bite pretty much anything at this point, and is going to make a nice little sport dog. Cause him a little stress, relieve the pressure. Pretty soon, what we think of as stress doesn't even bother him anymore.


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## Mike Scheiber

Dave Colborn said:


> I am with you keeping him loaded up "hot and angry" after you are done. Do you proof that before trial day, where you run through a critique, etc?? I want my dog to think car to car for attention and control. then he isn't thinking about pissing, etc.. This failed me at my last trial, but i altered my routine slightly and I blame myself.


The new rules are going to require healing to the critique after reporting out.
I think it would be pretty easy to train my dog healing to the car I trained healing for bites so a few trips to the car and release for a bites and he would have it.


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## Mike Scheiber

Shade Whitesel said:


> I train the critique in. Dog gets a bite afterwards. I want my dog thinking he might get a bite at any point, and that bite might just be back at the car after the critique. My dog thinks 5 bites in a Sch 3 routine (am I counting right?) is not enough.


Good thinking seting up your training so the dog never thinks its over till you say its over leaves the skys the limit as to what they will do and can learn to get another bite or a toy.
When we are finished training I say "done" the toy goes in my pocket or car and it don't come out again ever.
Same with bitework "done" never gets a bite after.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: You probably relieve stress in your dogs and don't even know what you are looking at....lol.

I guess we would have to train together for you to figure that out. I do Mondio, and he doesn't care about the decoy like that. It is a sport, and any tension he has is from NOT getting to bite.


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## Loring Cox

Geoff Empey said:


> Hey those who work dogs with slipping the sleeve or jambiere what behaviour are we rewarding when the sleeve is slipped?
> 
> 
> What do you all think of the practice? What pros and cons do you see with or not slipping the sleeve?


I see this as a CON:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXaiathKD5c FF to the 3:45 mark...


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## Geoff Empey

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I do Mondio, and he doesn't care about the decoy like that. It is a sport, and any tension he has is from NOT getting to bite.


This would tell me the dog is more on the prey side of things. I've seen more than few dogs like this that need to drain off by a bite on a bite item, before they calm down and focus on the world around them. 

My female is totally into the bite and fight with the decoy. She will work the line and have self control but after being sent doesn't give a crap about anything else unless I have another guy in a suit beside me to give as a reward after a recall, she doesn't care she just wants to go back up field. So the the reward for her is the fight/bite. 

The younger dog 'her son' is not the same, he enjoys the bite and is driven to take it to the decoy. But also enjoys coming back for the kong on a rope or a ball on a rope. He just turned a year so he does have some maturing to do but so far a very different dog in his needs for satisfaction. He has a lot less overall frantic drive stress because of the calmer bite foundation he has, so maybe that is where the difference lies. I am still up in the air on what is he is looking at as his 'reward' but it seems more balanced than his Mom at this point.


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## David Frost

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> How many people even know why they are running in circles ?


Slipping the sleeve I understand. Personally, I don't do it except in very rare cases with very young dogs. to each their own. My ques tion though, what is the "running in circles"? Seems some know what it references, I admi t I don't. If someone wouldn't mind a few sentences to explain it to me. thank you.

DFrost


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## Gillian Schuler

When the dog is slipped the sleeve, the handler runs in a circle with him for a minute or two away from the helper. If the dog wants to spit it out, a short tug on the lead will hinder him. With a young dog, some helpers like to slip the sleeve back on whilst the dog has it in his mouth.

It needs two to make it work - the handler must remain calm and sometimes excited running in circles can be unproductive.

It's a typical Schutzhund exercise. Whether it actually helps the grip or not is debateable. I never noticed any difference in my dogs' work whether I ran / walked circles with them or not.


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## Dominic D'Ambrosio

Mike Scheiber said:


> I have 100% total control on the field and of course I use electric. If my dog makes a mistake its my mistake and a error in my training.
> I see no benefit for him for me to heel him to the car when done training.


Of coarse Mike. Dog training 101, the only 100% is that there is no 100% when it comes to dogs.


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## David Frost

Thanks Gillian.

DFrost


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## Geoff Empey

Gillian Schuler said:


> When the dog is slipped the sleeve, the handler runs in a circle with him for a minute or two away from the helper. If the dog wants to spit it out, a short tug on the lead will hinder him. With a young dog, some helpers like to slip the sleeve back on whilst the dog has it in his mouth.
> 
> It needs two to make it work - the handler must remain calm and sometimes excited running in circles can be unproductive.
> 
> It's a typical Schutzhund exercise. Whether it actually helps the grip or not is debateable. I never noticed any difference in my dogs' work whether I ran / walked circles with them or not.


Hi Gillian thanks for that explanation where to you put the definitive reward in working the dog like this though. Is the reward the 'slip' or the 're-engagement'? How do you put the dog away satisfied or do you leave the dog wanting to fight more? When working like this is the dog more focused on the sleeve or the man?


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## Gillian Schuler

Geoff, that was just an attempt to explain to David what "running around in circles" is!!

Sliipping the sleeve is done with the young dogs before they can out whilst engaged with the helper, for obvious reasons so that he can engage them again and again. 

The older dogs "out" in between bites and only get the sleeve at the end of the session to take to the car or dog box.

I remember though when I first started Schutzhund, some of the Level 3 dogs never got the sleeve.

You ask "where is the reward?". Does a dog that cannot wait to get to the helper, i.e. has to be firmly controlled so that he doesn't try to leave out a blind, enjoys the fight with the helper, learns eventually to sit by your side until you give him the command "attack" whereby he is looking at you intensively until your lips move, need a reward at the end???

You could liken it to tracking - I give my dog a reward from my pocket (kibble, whatever) when he indiicates an article. I do this to ensure he waits in the first place, not as a reward as the tracking is the reward.

I need to reward my dog in obedience - it is not his favourite discipline but my last dog saw obedience as the reward and couldn't wait to stat heeling.

Schutzhund has become so stereotyped that I wonder whether some (even experienced handlers / trainers stop to think why they are doing what.

Even the beer at the end of protection work is not a reward for me - it's medication 

Just food for thought!


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## David Frost

Gillian Schuler said:


> You ask "where is the reward?". Does a dog that cannot wait to get to the helper, i.e. has to be firmly controlled so that he doesn't try to leave out a blind, enjoys the fight with the helper, learns eventually to sit by your side until you give him the command "attack" whereby he is looking at you intensively until your lips move, need a reward at the end???
> 
> 
> Even the beer at the end of protection work is not a reward for me - it's medication
> 
> Just food for thought!


I guess that was also a question I had. I just chalked it up to my ignorance of sport. From my experience the bite was the reward. The question was; find the reward to stop the dog from biting or biting only when he was told was the hard one to figure out. Thanks again.

DFrost


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## Bob McKown

I train my dogs to focus on the helper I like to train the dog that the sleeve is only a path to the man every thing comes from the man the fight the challenge the reward. 

I like to see the dog get the sleeve and drive it back into the helper to be active to the helper or decoy. If the focus is on the man the outs and gaurding are much better.

my2cents.

_Bob_


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## Geoff Empey

Thanks for the informative post Gillian .. 



Gillian Schuler said:


> The older dogs "out" in between bites and only get the sleeve at the end of the session to take to the car or dog box.
> 
> I remember though when I first started Schutzhund, some of the Level 3 dogs never got the sleeve.


Do you remember why they did that back in the day? Or why they don't do it now? Have the dogs in your opinion changed or has the training changed? 




Gillian Schuler said:


> Schutzhund has become so stereotyped that I wonder whether some (even experienced handlers / trainers stop to think why they are doing what.
> 
> Even the beer at the end of protection work is not a reward for me - it's medication


That's the thing there always seems to be more than one way to skin a cat. I just wonder why some peoples training methods evolve over time and others don't even if they are not having good results, they still are stuck in bad habits. 

Beer Whooot!!


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## Martine Loots

Mike Scheiber said:


> I have 100% total control on the field and of course I use electric. If my dog makes a mistake its my mistake and a error in my training.
> *I see no benefit for him for me to heel him to the car when done training*.


No offense but IMO a dog should always be "under control".
It depends on the type of dog maybe, but I don't see the use of giving them free after the work and could very well be that's why you have to be careful that you don't get bitten?

Of our dogs, Fils is the only one that is allowed to play sometimes. First because he is retired and second because he's not the type of dog that has tendency to be handler aggressive.
With all the others we have to be very consequent. Giving them too much freedom would mean trouble.


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## Dave Colborn

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: You probably relieve stress in your dogs and don't even know what you are looking at....lol.
> 
> I guess we would have to train together for you to figure that out. I do Mondio, and he doesn't care about the decoy like that. It is a sport, and any tension he has is from NOT getting to bite.


When he's on the bite, you can't throw anything at him to cause him stress because he's so strong? Or does Mondio not require it?


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## Dave Colborn

Gillian Schuler said:


> You ask "where is the reward?". Does a dog that cannot wait to get to the helper, i.e. has to be firmly controlled so that he doesn't try to leave out a blind, enjoys the fight with the helper, learns eventually to sit by your side until you give him the command "attack" whereby he is looking at you intensively until your lips move, need a reward at the end???


Your question if I read it correctly is "Does a dog that cannot wait to get to the helper need a reward?"

I shortened it up , but that was the gist of what i was reading.


Isn't the helper a reward? Aren't you just teaching the dog to focus on a variable reward schedule and giving him a bite for great attention?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: When he's on the bite, you can't throw anything at him to cause him stress because he's so strong? Or does Mondio not require it?

Buko does not require it. There are dogs in Mondio that probably need that kind of help, I just do not work any like that.


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## Dave Colborn

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: When he's on the bite, you can't throw anything at him to cause him stress because he's so strong? Or does Mondio not require it?
> 
> Buko does not require it. There are dogs in Mondio that probably need that kind of help, I just do not work any like that.



I think we are talking about different things. I am talking about causing a dog stress while he is on the bite and before. Pressure. Make it uncomfortable. Small increments, and then go back into his comfort zone. Back and forth from prey to defense to prey. Until all he has is a comfort zone.

What kind of help do you see stress giving a dog in a sport environment?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: What kind of help do you see stress giving a dog in a sport environment?

Define stress then. I work the exercises. 

If the dog is stressed in bitework, then what is the point ? A good dog for me is one that is only thinking of how do I get that bite. The stress is the control, I guess.


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## Mike Scheiber

Martine Loots said:


> No offense but IMO a dog should always be "under control".
> It depends on the type of dog maybe, but I don't see the use of giving them free after the work and could very well be that's why you have to be careful that you don't get bitten?
> 
> Of our dogs, Fils is the only one that is allowed to play sometimes. First because he is retired and second because he's not the type of dog that has tendency to be handler aggressive.
> With all the others we have to be very consequent. Giving them too much freedom would mean trouble.


Non taken his behavior sorta difficult for me to describe maybe I'm putting to much human spin it just appears to me that its good for his mind and training to have on and off switch when entering and leaving the field.
This season I will assess my training and consider some changes or additions thanks.


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## Geoff Empey

Dave Colborn said:


> What kind of help do you see stress giving a dog in a sport environment?





Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Define stress then. I work the exercises.
> 
> If the dog is stressed in bitework, then what is the point ? A good dog for me is one that is only thinking of how do I get that bite. The stress is the control, I guess.


Thank you .. stress is the control, .. the out, the leaving of the fight, the build up and agitation from the decoy and the want to be in the fight but just not there i.e visual while being in the crate or on the side of the field. 

A good long satisfying bite is a stress dumper and I don't think it matters for whatever sport or if the dog is in defense or in prey .. the dog still relieves that stress through the bite. 

Is that the reward though? Then where do you all put that control (stress) back in to cap the reward? As obviously we can't have one without the other.


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## Dave Colborn

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: When he's on the bite, you can't throw anything at him to cause him stress because he's so strong? Or does Mondio not require it?
> 
> Buko does not require it. There are dogs in Mondio that probably need that kind of help, I just do not work any like that.



Buko does not require what? What kind of help are you talking about?


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## Dave Colborn

Geoff Empey said:


> Thank you .. stress is the control, .. the out, the leaving of the fight, the build up and agitation from the decoy and the want to be in the fight but just not there i.e visual while being in the crate or on the side of the field.
> 
> A good long satisfying bite is a stress dumper and I don't think it matters for whatever sport or if the dog is in defense or in prey .. the dog still relieves that stress through the bite.
> 
> Is that the reward though? Then where do you all put that control (stress) back in to cap the reward? As obviously we can't have one without the other.



Control can cause stress. Yes. If it goes well, like you mentioned, we control the level of stress, cap their drive close to the point it is too much, and they explode into the bite, toy or decoy. In my opinion the bite on a decoy is the reward for most dogs, just like a tug or a ball under your arm in obedience, a decoy can be used in a similar fashion. Dogs don't bite the reward under your arm or in your pocket until we release them. They learn to manipulate their environment to get what they want. I show focus, I get bite, toy or otherwise. We used toys and food first as it is easier to manipulate. Easier to make it clear what we are asking.

"A good long satisfying bite is a stress dumper." Only if the dog agrees with you. If he is pushing you around and biting hard, great. If you turn into him and give him some frontal pressure he doesn't handle well, then no, it could go the other way.

This is why it is important to see where a dog is more comfortable working, more intense, prey or defense. A prey high mal may enjoy hanging onto a suit and walking around pushing the decoy, relieves stress for him, a good dog. A defensive bulldog may enjoy the fight more, needs a little pain stimulation and some fighting, and is likely early on to pop off the bite if there is no fight to it. We teach them to bite longer with less or no fight because we may need them to make a passive bite. Try and exploit their prey drive if they are more defensive. Still a good dog, just needs to be worked different. Both examples could be switched with a defensive Malinois or a prey high bully. Again, it depends where the dog is more comfortable working. 

What I am getting at is there are good dogs that get stressed when biting. Whether you see it or not, I think with most dogs it is there at one point or another. They get more into the fight because it is more serious to them, and have a harder time being clear headed about what they are doing. They never are taught to channel back into prey, where they are dominating the fight and can think clearly. 

I think it's our job to find out where they are working best, and as long as they are strong where they operate, then work them where they work best. Reward them how they like it, much like a dog having five toys tossed out and picking the one he likes the best. Some dogs don't care, some do.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Only if the dog agrees with you. If he is pushing you around and biting hard, great. If you turn into him and give him some frontal pressure he doesn't handle well, then no, it could go the other way.

You can turn into him. You can give him frontal pressure. =D>

I guess we have a difference in what we want out of dogs. I just need the dog to like to bite. I don't "add" defense, I work the exercises. I look at it like this, you want to wack the dog and yell and scream and do all that, then we go get you a thin trial suit and you can scream for real, and fight the pain to go frontal on the dog. Then, we will train tomorrow, and he can hurt you all over again, and you can wack him and go frontal and whatever, and then the next day, and the next day, and the next day and see how long you can go getting hurt compared to the dog.

I have dogs that bite the arms, and dogs that bite the legs. I do not need my decoy getting all ****led up, and I don't need my dogs looking at you like that. You see what I am getting at ? We just work the exercises. They are not cop dogs, I don't need them to see or work through pressure as they grow up and do it anyway. I don't ever need a young dog to be afraid of a decoy, and I do not feel like turning a decoy into jelly, as I need him to teach the dog correctly and not be flinching all the time.


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## Don Turnipseed

So, what if you have a dog that self rewards and doesn't care what you have to offer.


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## will fernandez

Don 

are you talking about bitework or in general?


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## Don Turnipseed

Either one Will but bitework is the discusion. Dogs self reward over many things to where we can't match the reward, much like someone that takes pride in their work and stands back and admires what they have done. I would guess, doing bitework, you would likely see this in many strong dogs...maybe moreso in civil work than sport, solely because in civil, the dog knows he put it to a guy without a suit and will know he put it to him. What can you actually reward a dog with that just took someone down and actually had him screaming? Dogs going to walk away with a Richard pryor strut saying " Yeh, I'm bad!". Much like a dog that just caught a rabbit. Nothing you can give him can match the squeal and the kill.


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## will fernandez

Don Turnipseed said:


> Either one Will but bitework is the discusion. Dogs self reward over many things to where we can't match the reward, much like someone that takes pride in their work and stands back and admires what they have done. I would guess, doing bitework, you would likely see this in many strong dogs...maybe moreso in civil work than sport, solely because in civil, the dog knows he put it to a guy without a suit and will know he put it to him. What can you actually reward a dog with that just took someone down and actually had him screaming? Dogs going to walk away with a Richard pryor strut saying " Yeh, I'm bad!". Much like a dog that just caught a rabbit. Nothing you can give him can match the squeal and the kill.


 
Thats what we strive for--We are not giving the reward but only timing when he can have it. It is a indirect reward. "do what I say now--okay--- now you can go get your reward" I like that for obediance and agility as well.


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## Geoff Empey

Don Turnipseed said:


> So, what if you have a dog that self rewards and doesn't care what you have to offer.



You are pretty screwed outside of compulsing the dog to do what you want, As Martine was saying earlier. Time to kall Kohler! 



Martine Loots said:


> At first you "teach" the dog the out and then he gets a reward (like a tug or something)
> 
> By the time he matures he'll know what you mean and then he "has to" do it. If not he'll be punished.


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## Shade Whitesel

Don Turnipseed said:


> Either one Will but bitework is the discusion. Dogs self reward over many things to where we can't match the reward, much like someone that takes pride in their work and stands back and admires what they have done. I would guess, doing bitework, you would likely see this in many strong dogs...maybe moreso in civil work than sport, solely because in civil, the dog knows he put it to a guy without a suit and will know he put it to him. What can you actually reward a dog with that just took someone down and actually had him screaming? Dogs going to walk away with a Richard pryor strut saying " Yeh, I'm bad!". Much like a dog that just caught a rabbit. Nothing you can give him can match the squeal and the kill.


The chance to do it again! And the fact that I drove the darn dog to bitework, and he had to heel and be under control to get the chance to drag the guy down screaming. And then it's not as much fun to worry at the screaming, non fighting guy (or rabbit) but if you let go really fast, you get a chance to fight him and knock him down again!


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## Don Turnipseed

Shade Whitesel said:


> The chance to do it again! And the fact that I drove the darn dog to bitework, and he had to heel and be under control to get the chance to drag the guy down screaming. And then it's not as much fun to worry at the screaming, non fighting guy (or rabbit) but if you let go really fast, you get a chance to fight him and knock him down again!


I thought taking the dcoy down wasn't the idea of sport work? But, in this case, it is different than hunting because the dog has the kill and the reward. Several breeds, at this point if the person isn't fighting, will stand down and not be real interested in rebiting unless the person gets openly aggressive....which is what I would guess is the scenario. So, dog takes guy down, is pulled off and the reward is a rebite from what I see. What if the dog already kicked ass and is ok with that knowing that he can control the decoy if necessary and it is a game anyway? Seems I hear this can be a problem encountered with bulldogs in protection.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

There has GOT to be someone close to you that you can test this theory out Don. No clubs at all ?


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## Dave Colborn

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> You can turn into him. You can give him frontal pressure. =D>


I know I can. The question is, can he take it? Lol. (Now I am sure you will want to find a thin suit and show me how hard he bites.) We're talking about a bite being a reward. If frontal pressure causes stress, then is the bite a reward, or is turning away from the dog and going into a posture that reduces stress and lets the dog dominate better suited for a reward?



Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I guess we have a difference in what we want out of dogs. I just need the dog to like to bite. I don't "add" defense, I work the exercises. I look at it like this, you want to wack the dog and yell and scream and do all that, then we go get you a thin trial suit and you can scream for real, and fight the pain to go frontal on the dog. Then, we will train tomorrow, and he can hurt you all over again, and you can wack him and go frontal and whatever, and then the next day, and the next day, and the next day and see how long you can go getting hurt compared to the dog..


We do want different things out of dogs, I agree. 

But....I don't add defense, I just recognize that it is there. You don't have a choice about it with most dogs, it's there. Why does a frontal bite or pressure make you think I need a thin suit. Is that your way of sticking up for your dog? I do all I can to bring a dog up without pushing it to avoidance, but it's all about raising the avoidance threshold (Doing this does introduce pressure and systematically lets the dog win, without pushing too far) and lowering the defensive threshold for the dog so he can perceive a threat where you say there is a threat, IE a passive decoy.

Did I mention whacking the dog. You could raise a hula hoop over a dog and see that it may cause issues, the dog may feel pressure from it. It's all about getting the most out of a dog that you can get. If you see the dog come through stuff nicely, but he isn't breeding material, so be it. but you can still make him handle things better, and possibly be able to pass a trial. If you were training day after day to a goal, I would get in a thin suit and get beat up if it benefited your dog.



Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I have dogs that bite the arms, and dogs that bite the legs. I do not need my decoy getting all ****led up, and I don't need my dogs looking at you like that. You see what I am getting at ? We just work the exercises. They are not cop dogs, I don't need them to see or work through pressure as they grow up and do it anyway. I don't ever need a young dog to be afraid of a decoy, and I do not feel like turning a decoy into jelly, as I need him to teach the dog correctly and not be flinching all the time.


How do your dogs look at a decoy? What do you not want them to look at a decoy like? What if you suddenly have a dog that is stressed by something some mondio accessory ? Do you just get rid of him and get a new dog, or train through it? Is there no pressure in a Mondio exercise according to you? If that's the case, you shouldn't bash Schutzhund so much.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Is there no pressure in a Mondio exercise according to you? If that's the case, you shouldn't bash Schutzhund so much.

Sch is gay. The deal is I do not care as long as the dog bites. I don't care if he is in defense, offense, fight, wiggle, or happy. Just bite and do the exercise. Dogs that I like, like to bite. 

I have seen good Sch dogs fail ring 1 more often than I have seen them pass. Something must be different enough. I will let you figure it out. Most of the time I see them fail the DOH. My guess is the control shut them down, as they usually do not bite. 

Now, in my experience, Sch people do a lot of what you are talking about firing the dog up and building and this and that. In the end, I see that failing. Then I see dogs that people are not building and frontalling pass the same exercise. 

Now you go ahead and tell me about pressure and building.


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## Dave Colborn

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Is there no pressure in a Mondio exercise according to you? If that's the case, you shouldn't bash Schutzhund so much.
> 
> Sch is gay. The deal is I do not care as long as the dog bites. I don't care if he is in defense, offense, fight, wiggle, or happy. Just bite and do the exercise. Dogs that I like, like to bite.
> 
> I have seen good Sch dogs fail ring 1 more often than I have seen them pass. Something must be different enough. I will let you figure it out. Most of the time I see them fail the DOH. My guess is the control shut them down, as they usually do not bite.
> 
> Now, in my experience, Sch people do a lot of what you are talking about firing the dog up and building and this and that. In the end, I see that failing. Then I see dogs that people are not building and frontalling pass the same exercise.
> 
> Now you go ahead and tell me about pressure and building.


My dog likes to bite. I might never have seen him like to bite if I didn't know the difference between prey and defense. 

Where did I talk about firing the dog up? 


What do you think frontal means? And if Buko was as good when you started as he is now, then what is the point of your training. You built (building) him up to where he is now. All the people that **** up dogs are doing the opposite. 

I want to train with you, cowboy. Want a seminar? I can raise your scores having never done the sport...


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## Jeff Oehlsen

You can always join Mondio. You can form a club and have trials. 

Quote: And if Buko was as good when you started as he is now, then what is the point of your training. You built (building) him up to where he is now.

The point of the training is to teach him the exercise, not to bite. I guess you didn't read that. You could always try sounding out the 2 and 3 syllable words, and if it gets confusing, then just ask. I can help you with your reading. I can get you reading high school level in no time.

I am having a seminar on the 19th and 20th of this month with Jimmy Vanhove. Come on down and you can show me how to improve my training, and we will show you how to catch a dog properly. I like boxers. It would be fun. I also have some books that will help you improve your reading ability. T h e y h a v e b i g w o r d s.


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## Dave Colborn

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> You can always join Mondio. You can form a club and have trials.
> 
> Quote: And if Buko was as good when you started as he is now, then what is the point of your training. You built (building) him up to where he is now.
> 
> The point of the training is to teach him the exercise, not to bite. I guess you didn't read that. You could always try sounding out the 2 and 3 syllable words, and if it gets confusing, then just ask. I can help you with your reading. I can get you reading high school level in no time.
> 
> I am having a seminar on the 19th and 20th of this month with Jimmy Vanhove. Come on down and you can show me how to improve my training, and we will show you how to catch a dog properly. I like boxers. It would be fun. I also have some books that will help you improve your reading ability. T h e y h a v e b i g w o r d s.



If I were free I'd come, and sincerely thanks for the invite. Always like getting better at decoying. Good luck with the seminar and your comprehension of training concepts...


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## Gerry Grimwood

I don't know which is better right now...this point/counterpoint discussion or the 2-2 tied Calgary/LA game in the second period :smile:


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## Gerry Grimwood

3-2 LA..Tabernac :razz:


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## Gillian Schuler

Geoff Empey said:


> Thanks for the informative post Gillian ..
> 
> Do you remember why they did that back in the day? Or why they don't do it now? Have the dogs in your opinion changed or has the training changed?


QUOTE=Geoff Empey;251009]Thanks for the informative post Gillian .. 

Do you remember why they did that back in the day? Or why they don't do it now? Have the dogs in your opinion changed or has the training changed? 

[/QUOTE]

When I started dog training (with a Landseer!!) I only knew our national working dog schutzhund trials. I don't think the dogs were so much different than now, apart from the fact that no one won a trial on the obedience alone!!

Whether or not the dogs were so different, I cannot say but the handlers were different. There was no Internet; they kept what they thought was good and rejected otherwise. Analysing was not done as it is now. Either the dog wanted to bite and thereby finding fulfillment in it (reward?) or it didn't and the handler took up another sport. (Maybe this answers your question as to how I think, Dave Colbourn?)

We then had "guarding an object" and "attack on handler" up until about 1990, after which I swapped sports to IPO.

The last and the current two dogs have always wanted to bite and they and I enjoy the discipline. I cannot imagine training a dog that was hesitant in biting.


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## Gillian Schuler

I'd like to add something that I've seen on another forum in Germany, and that is, the dominance training in Schutzhund.

Apparently this is trained by die Heuwinkel handlers / trainers. However, as I have never been to one of their workshops or seen a video of their training - I can only assume what I have heard is true but cannot confirm it.

In the dominance training, the pup is confronted by the helper (without arm) and the pup should force him to retreat. The pup is obviously proud of his ability to "send off" the hleper (the helper must be initiated in this work).

Most pups enjoy sending off people - this should make them strong and confident.

The young dog eventually gets a bite at the sleeve but without any pressure from the helper at this time.

Quite honestly, some of these components we used to do with our dogs years ago, i.e. letting him chase the "bad guy" away, letting him grab a bite on the sleeve of the helper who runs around him.

We even used to have a "Hetzring" - here all the young dogs were on the lead, in a circle, and were individually challenged by the helper. Never seen it done since but it did motivate the weaker dogs to bite.;-)


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## Erik Berg

If the dog don´t out, aren´t focused on the man or too possesive over the sleeve is probably not due to the sleeve-slipping, it´s just as much the responsibility of the handler/decoy I would assume. I guess we cant know for sure what the dog thinks is the reward when the sleeve is slipped, the prasie from handler and winning the sleeve from the helper is the reward some say, maybe the dog thinks it´s the sleeve itself that is most rewarding, who knows what goes on inside the dogs head. 

I always learnt the carrying and winning the sleeve is just a way to maintain and develop that calm,full grip that is important in SCH, not all dogs have very deep and calm bites from the start I guess. If it was more rare in former days maybe it has something to do with the grip wasn´t judged so hard back then?

Gillian, letting the dog chase the bad guy away is pretty standard today also what I´ve seen, at least outside SCH.


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## Bart Karmich

I'm a beginner with a dog that is not successful in bitework right now so maybe I know nothing, but if I watch other people I see some dogs that are focused on the equipment and they want their sleeve. They are possessive and not civil enough. I would not give the sleeve to those dogs. Other dogs are not possessive and don't want the sleeve, they want the man. Those are the dogs I would try to get to carry the sleeve. It's a matter of balancing the dog. If they're too focused one way or another, counter that with an appropriate action. In Schutzhund if you have a dog that just wants the stupid sleeve, looks at the sleeve in the blind and barks like he wants his toy, the picture sucks and the dog should lose points. Some people like Ed Frawley write that ring, at least French, is all about prey but I don't think its that simple. The dog doesn't distinguish so much whether it is in prey or defense or fight or whatever you want. For me, the dog should be serious and determined whatever the sport or discipline. If the dog is too serious, this should be tempered to keep the dog clear-headed, under control, so slip him a sleeve or whatever. If the dog is not serious or determined enough, that's crappy, no sleeve. Equipment can be A reward (but should not be THE reward) in bite work. It should not be the main motivation. What are you going to do when you move to a suit, hidden sleeve or muzzle? The dog has to want to bite for the love of biting. For me, the toy-oriented dog should just play fetch.


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