# Good environmental suggestions for young dog?



## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

He is about 8 months, I figure I need to come up with as many things as possible while he is still young. Ive done the swimming pool, last night I took him to the high school when it was pretty dark and had him going up the bleachers with me. He goes up the playground equipment at the grade school next door.

I plan on taking him to the firing range....but Im looking for other good suggestions.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

My favorites are hardware stores, post offices, outdoor cafes; retail shops that allow dogs; feed stores; kid's t-ball games; outdoor dog events; buildings with elevators and long hallways with people coming and going; outdoor market with crowds and all sorts of people.


Terrasita


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

A favorite when I was in town on the weekends was the race track. Got one around? Motocross, 1/4 mile, any of 'em will do. Sports arena, in the parking lot and up front. Look in the paper and see what events you have going on around you. Airfield, military base, etc, bus station, firing range, stables, etc...

What are you looking to do? Just get him out? If so then take him out where ever your heart desires and just live with him the way you live your own life.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Anything and everything the dog has never seen, heard, smelled or touched before. 
Doesn't have to be fancy!


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

Just a question does he show enviromental stress now?

I like to see them doing some agility type stuff so the objects are easy to navigate and they build confidence. 

I would work on loud noises like gun shots, airplane engines etc. Nicole gave you a good one with race tracks. If you get a chance to navigate on some strange surfaces that would be good. Thick mudd, grated floors etc.

One of my doggy friends likes to take their dogs to the airport to walk around and use the elevators. I have not actually done this but it makes sense if you plan on traveling and competing.


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

nope, no stress now...just trying to make him as bulletproof as possible



stairs were new to him, he was going down like a handstand, with his rear held off the ground


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Exposure to livestock. Hiking in the wilderness. Some sort of large crowd event, where people react to the scene, like a sportsgame or rodeo, dragstrip or motorcross, outdoor concert, or auction.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Hey Matt,
He is 8 months old, his nerves are what they are at this point. Trust me your dog will have no issues.
He was exposed to hundreds of rounds of .45 ACP during his stay here with me, it did not phase him.
Also was exposed to several hundred .223 and .308 rounds as well. he has been into a few airports, he has been around livestock, he has been around kids, crowds of people, motocross practice track with 7 or 8 bikes racing around. He has been on stairs a couple times, on slick floors everyday, ran with the ATV in the woods along with other dogs, been in the school house and the firehouse, on the playground, and around running farm equipment.Climbed around on a giant (about 40' high) wood pile, He is very solid environmentally.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

A dog with a correct temperament doesn't need all that shit. THat is pet shit trying to make a shitter not be a liability.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> A dog with a correct temperament doesn't need all that shit. THat is pet shit trying to make a shitter not be a liability.


 right! ](*,)](*,)](*,)
Do this for me, just for fun.......keep one of your new Mali puppies in a closet until he about 18 months old and then let me come down and test him.


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

interesting, I had thought (assumed) there would be a benefit to continually exposing him to stuff




(and had no idea you did that much with him Mike, fyi, he is doing very well)


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Matt Grosch said:


> interesting, I had thought (assumed) there would be a benefit to continually exposing him to stuff
> 
> 
> 
> ...


DOnt get me wrong....it will not hurt him for sure. I was just saying that by living here at our kennel he gets exposure to a lot of that stuff even if it is by accident. I have a MX track right here (I am an active MX racer myself and have several buddies who I race with that come here to practice a lot). I also have a shooting range about 100' in front of the kennel (I am a Govt. sponsored / supported shooter, so I shoot several hundred rounds a week usually)
We have 80 beef cattle here on the farm, the indoor training room has very slippery floors, the school and firehouse are 1/4 mile away and I do a lot of indoor training there, that is also where the playground is. So I usually take every imported dog on a walk around the place to see how they react to all of those things. Your dog was fine with all of it, nothing seamed to phase him at all really.
The biggest benifit from this type of exposure is seen prior to 12 weeks old, since your puppy is already 8 months, he will benifit less from it, however since he was properly raised in Europe he is fine with all of these things anyway.
I dont have access to the type of genetics that Jeff and some others here must have, I have honestly yet to see any dog from any breed, from any bloodlines that could sit in a kennel with no exposure to the World and come out for the first time as an adult and see everything we throw at them and not be a little conscerned by at least some of it.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Obviously you need to go to the extreme, as your arguement for all that work you do is worthless and weak. May be you look at what my experience is as all bullshit, but here is someone that maybe you DO respect the opinion of who says the same thing.

http://www.schutzhund-training.net/interviews/bartbellon.html

It is like the third question. Maybe you need to rethink some shit. LOL WTF do I know right ?? I came to the same conclusion years and years before this article came out. Part of the whole not falling for some article writers bullshit. Never had to separate a litter for dog aggression either. I would snap all those necks. But again, what do I know ???


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Obviously you need to go to the extreme, as your arguement for all that work you do is worthless and weak. May be you look at what my experience is as all bullshit, but here is someone that maybe you DO respect the opinion of who says the same thing.
> 
> http://www.schutzhund-training.net/interviews/bartbellon.html
> 
> It is like the third question. Maybe you need to rethink some shit. LOL WTF do I know right ?? I came to the same conclusion years and years before this article came out. Part of the whole not falling for some article writers bullshit. Never had to separate a litter for dog aggression either. I would snap all those necks. But again, what do I know ???


I agree with everything he said if my goal was the same as his, but my goal here at this kennel is not Ring sport work. Bart exposes his young dogs to everything they will see in their jobs, which in his case is only the shit that they see on a trial field.
I also expose my young dogs to everything they will see in their jobs, which is a little different than the shit that takes place on a trial field.
For every one sport dog I sell, I sell 10 working dogs to jobs where they will likely never see a trial field, but will however see many other places and things that are strange for dogs. 
Look Jeff, I know where you stand on this, and I think you and I will never come to terms on this topic, that was clear from the very first post I made on this forum.](*,)
But snapping the neck on a 5 week old puppy just because he shows dominance and fight drive????? WTF dude? The aggression that I see in my puppies is caused from each of them trying to establish dominance from a very early age, and none of them being willing to accept it from the others. They will often times show this same aggression toward people if you try to roll them on their backs, or take a toy from them. As those dogs mature they show that same dominance torward everything, people, other animals, whatever. I dont see it as a bad thing, just something that I need to be aware of and keep a close eye on. If I culled every dominant dog that was born, what would we have left then? The same type of dog that everyone complains about not being "real".


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

The items I mentioned weren't for the benefit of the dog, so much as for the handler to examine how the dog reacts in each environment. Know your dog, being the rule. I agree, not much will be changed beyond 12 to 16 weeks. In most regards, you get what you get, straight out of the box. From maybe 16 weeks age, my Tiekerhook male spent around five months in the closet, while healing a broken toe. We picked up exactly where we left off, and to no detriment at all, because _he is what he is._


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## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

strip club.


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Obviously you need to go to the extreme, as your arguement for all that work you do is worthless and weak. May be you look at what my experience is as all bullshit, but here is someone that maybe you DO respect the opinion of who says the same thing.
> 
> http://www.schutzhund-training.net/interviews/bartbellon.html


Off-topic, I didn't expect to read this in the article, considering the interviewer and the poster:

_Mondioring I do not like, it is a weakening of both the French and Belgian rings._

It may be because he's a Soccer player. :razz: Interesting article.

-Cheers


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Meng Xiong said:


> strip club.


Maybe if the dancers are looking for a breast reduction.

-Cheers


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I agree, "they are what they are". and that is out of the box. My dogs only have the benefit of large yards full of trees, dogs, and me. But I walked them into the Nat'ls without a hitch all the strange(show) people, dogs and comotion didn't even phase them and they were not young pups. One was 2 and the other was 10 mo. I have some that would not have been as comfortable with it also. 
I love a dominate dog. There is nothing better nor more confident to work with as far as I am concerned. If they are not exceedingly dominate, they don't have the confidence. The very dominate that don't show aggression are the ultimate dogs IMO. Don't care for a dog that postures, growling, showing teeth and so forth. It shows me a weak dog.
With that said. I don't think it hurts to have all the exposure a dog can get, but, it has the strongest impact on the less confident dog and exposure is a must for those dogs.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Daryl Ehret said:


> The items I mentioned weren't for the benefit of the dog, so much as for the handler to examine how the dog reacts in each environment. Know your dog, being the rule. I agree, not much will be changed beyond 12 to 16 weeks. In most regards, you get what you get, straight out of the box. From maybe 16 weeks age, my Tiekerhook male spent around five months in the closet, while healing a broken toe. We picked up exactly where we left off, and to no detriment at all, because _he is what he is._


Daryl,

I think this is the part that is lost---its more an evaluation than desensitization. It will let you know whats in the dog before you send it out the door and whether it has any issues that may detract from the purpose for which the dog is intended. It does not change basic character.

Terrasita


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

All joking aside, how much CAN the owner shape or desensitize a puppy or green dog once they get it? I'm thinking things like dog aggression, how they view children (both desensitizing and shaping kids to be a positive experience, etc.), strangers (from social to neutral/aloof to suspicious). How much is shaping the dog's personality or traits versus training the dog to overcome certain tendencies with the beginnings of rudimentary informal obedience training by exposing them to things and rewarding or correcting based on the proper response to certain stimuli?

-Cheers


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: But snapping the neck on a 5 week old puppy just because he shows dominance and fight drive?????

Dog aggression. That is what he is showing. It is all good to try and make it seem like this is a good thing, but it isn't. You can put all the terminology you want on it, but what a useless ****ing thing. For every dog that you produce with dog aggression, there are just as many producing dogs that don't give a **** about another dog, and are just as good. Quit fooling yourself. Wait till one of these dogs snaps fluffy and gets the PD in trouble. That will be fun.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

David, a lot of it should be in the breeding. Much of what you mention such as aggression is breeding but when it is not addressed there, it is addressed as a training problem. My personal dogs are not aggressive with any dogs unless they are high status. Even then they just walk up and give the dog the choice to submit are fight. No growling or anything, just a cold stare. If the dog submits, that is ok with them, if they chose to fight, that's ok also. I don't see this as aggressive. Jager, the pup Jennifer has is a social dominate dog. It comes through in a young dog as being very serious rather than puppy like.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

If your dog has what it takes and good character and temperament, he is gonna do the job. It makes life much harder to fart around with pups that are gonna see shit anyway. Not like they are left in the box till it is time to sell them.

I am not propping up shit. If the dog runs off because the guy yelled in his face, more than likely, he wasn't biting hard enough, because without the sleeve on, you are not gonna stick your face in a dogs that is biting you. Just bullshit marketing to sell a dog. With the lines you have, it is weird to know that you are doing all this stuff with them. Should be good to go. 

On the other hand if they are stimulating up from all the exposure, that might be the reason for all the puppy fights.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Quote Mike Suttle
But snapping the neck on a 5 week old puppy just because he shows dominance and fight drive????? WTF dude? The aggression that I see in my puppies is caused from each of them trying to establish dominance from a very early age, and none of them being willing to accept it from the others. They will often times show this same aggression toward people if you try to roll them on their backs, or take a toy from them. As those dogs mature they show that same dominance torward everything, people, other animals, whatever. I dont see it as a bad thing, just something that I need to be aware of and keep a close eye on. If I culled every dominant dog that was born, what would we have left then? The same type of dog that everyone complains about not being "real".
Unquote

I agree with what you say Mike. 

I've had dogs I've had to socialise somewhat and dogs that I haven't. The Briard and my younger GSD were / are what they were / are: not frightened of anything, but in extreme need of controlling when other animals were around, horses, deer in our next field, cats, etc. Such dogs will practically never have problems with slippy floors, unaccustomed to environments, etc.

I took all my dogs to working trials as pups to show them they should leave the "big dogs" alone and not bark at them.Both of these dogs were not aggressive towards humans.

The Fila and the older GSD I did quite a bit of socialising - whether I needed to or not, I don't know but the Fila lived to be 14,5 without blotting his copybook (!!) and the GSD has become nearly social but not quite!! Looking back, I think I hindered his progress by socialising.

Socialising can often be overdone - one should take the pup out, watch him and then decide if he needs it!! Too much socialising on a point where the pup doesn't quite meet your ideals can backfire.

Jeff, a dog without aggression?

What do you mean???


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Where did I say that ?? Dog aggression has nothing to do with what I do, or anyone else that has a dog that bites in dog sports.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Whatever you say.


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## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

some things require the dog to learn
walking on slippery floors, not to go up on his nails
unstable floors, balance
stairs, etc...

its can be easier on the handler to help a puppy through it than an 80# dog


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

There a lot of balance stairs out there that criminals are using to get away from criminals ?? LOL How long does it take a dog to figure out how to walk on a slippery floor ?? I have had a lot of dogs, I don't remember having all these problems. Then again, they were not dog aggro either. Maybe that is where everyone is getting lost.

I have never seen a good dog have all these problems that people come up with. Maybe you just haven't had a good dog, I don't know.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Maybe your right Jeff, Maybe I have just never had a good dog.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I've been fortunate to have had a lot of good dogs for a lot of good reasons. Had some shitters also but I still enjoy doing all the exposure things. Not out of a need. I was doing it before it became the latest and greatest thing to do with pups.
!!!I like playing with puppys!!!


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I thought about this a little bit today and pretty much came up with the same answer you did. I truly like working with dogs and evaluating reactions or the absence of in different situations.

My first dog was a pit, I got it at 12 and I learned pretty fast the types of things people do to set dogs up to get a reaction out of them. I also realized that if I didn't understand or know what my dog was capable of dealing with while under stress, same goes for me, that if something went wrong I could stand to lose the dog I worked so hard to get. 

That attitude has carried forward 20+ years and I still maintain that same approach with my dogs. The breeds and dogs I have mostly had are known for dog and animal aggression, and to some extent the same towards people as well. To minimize negative risks I've accepted responsibility for exposing my dogs to a number of situations and environmental influences. I don't expect most people who do this regardless of the reason have motives that are all that different. That said, I also see the type of work contract suppliers of dogs do as valid and necessary. If we learned nothing else from that bicep bite video that should be it.

My experience has also been the same, it is what it is. A solid dog, is pretty much solid through and through. You got dog aggression, you probably can guarantee that no amount of socialization or exposure is going to eliminate it. At least you certainly should never put yourself in a position to think otherwise. But what it can do is elevate the threshold in those circumstances and induce a bit of good timing on your part in the event that the dog has bad intentions. It can also teach you about the dogs responses to certain situations and how you should or should not react or counter them. I see it as a matter of responsibility and this responsibility isn't limited to just dog aggression. Know what your dog is capable of and for those people who are willing to test those scenarios I really do think that it benefits everyone in the long run. 

It's not really in the same context of this discussion but I do think it's a relevant perspective.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Maybe your right Jeff, Maybe I have just never had a good dog.

A person tends to gravitate towards the things he personally likes, and ignores the things that he doesn't mind. I was talking to the balance stairs guy, Lauer.

However, no matter how good a dog is there is always room for improvement. So many have the opinion that you need to do all this extra shit all the time or the dogs will crap out. I have seen you scream in a 8 to 10 week old puppies face. I don't see what the heck that is gonna do. He is too young to respond in any sort of mature way, and for me, you build a pup up as much as possible all the time.

I do stuff with pups after they are walking around. I take them around and let them see some stuff, but I want to see what they are like without my influence first. The ones that don't go off and crawl over shit are the ones that don't make it. I want to see what their talents are, not what I can influence them to do. WTF good is that ??


I have had really good tracking dogs, because I see the little shits following their nose all over. I didn't show them that, so that is what they will be good at. If you are out there showing them to do that, then you will not see the individual that rocks at it. Same with the other shit.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

This was what I meant in my post that I took the pups out and watched how they reacted to various things. Definitely no testing. 

The younger GSD just took everything in his stride, like the Briard did. I never had to "introduce" these two confident little chaps to anything.

The older GSD was far more cautious but I let him be and he is now a more-or-less friendly but possessive and territorial dog. As a pup, if we met people outside, as they left us, he'd put his little nose to the ground and try to follow them. Most pups that have "missed" me in the woods have raised their heads and looked for me first, before using their nose. Not Buister, within seconds he'd sniffed me out. Toni used to watch him and noted this a lot.

What Buster didn't like as a small pup were children and women - big men were his favourites. I worked it out that these were all he'd seen in his 8 weeks after birth nearly and assumed that this was a pup who had to work out his own agenda. Taking him up to the kindergarten as a pup was futile in my mind and I would never do it again. He got over things in his own time.

What you don't like in a pup you tend to "flood" him with it and what you maybe like, such as "cheeky" behaviour you tend to oversee.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: 
This was what I meant in my post that I took the pups out and watched how they reacted to various things. Definitely no testing. 

That is testing.

Quote: The older GSD was far more cautious but I let him be and he is now a more-or-less friendly but possessive and territorial dog. As a pup, if we met people outside, as they left us, he'd put his little nose to the ground and try to follow them. Most pups that have "missed" me in the woods have raised their heads and looked for me first, before using their nose. Not Buister, within seconds he'd sniffed me out. Toni used to watch him and noted this a lot.


Ok, so what does that tell you ?? You just left it be and the dog did what ?? Kinda making my point for me.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

How is it you manage to interpret into ANY thread just what you want in order to make out the poster is talking crap?

I did similarly to what you said so how come you interpret as you do?

I didn't just let the dog "be". He's a good working dog, 

Honestly Jeff, I think you need to shut up and think before you tap the keyboard.

I'm beginning to wonder what you actually do know? People who attack other people's posts in the way you do are usually lacking in something.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

The time limit was over so I couldn't alter my thread so I will say it here:

I always thought you knew something about dogs but I now know that you regard your fellow forum members in another light.

Sorry you always feel this way. I first thought differently of you and enjoyed your threads.

Now I feel differently, not that it will concern you one bit, but sad for the forum.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: The older GSD was far more cautious but I let him be and he is now a more-or-less friendly but possessive and territorial dog.

You did not go out and do all the environmental work and the dog turned out fine. How you get offended by proving what I am saying is kinda weird. Not sure what went wrong here.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I think it's better left as it is Jeff. You don't want to understand and I honestly have no desire to discuss what I do with my dogs with you any more.

Like Mike Suttle said - he probably didn't have any good dogs. Neither did I.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Maybe your right Jeff, Maybe I have just never had a good dog.
> 
> A person tends to gravitate towards the things he personally likes, and ignores the things that he doesn't mind. I was talking to the balance stairs guy, Lauer.
> 
> ...


I think you were issued a very small jar when you were in the USMC. It must have squeezed something in your brain housing group that caused irreversable dain bramage.](*,)
Let me present it to you in this way......
Since you are a ring guy: What if there was a new rule in ring that said by the time your dog was 16 months old he would be scored in these areas: have to climb a metal ladder, work inside a very noisy and very crowded national airport full of people, he would have to work on moving conveyer belts, work under running diesle semi trucks, he would have to work in the subways of the largest and busiest cities in the US, he would have to remain calm under the most violent of explosions (like bombs and IEDs) he would have to be stable and comfortable around running helicopters, he would have to repel and jump out of airplanes, oh, and by the way, there will be a few other "surprises" that he will be tested on as well that you wont know about until the day of the trail, and those surprises will be very stressful for the dog. in addition to that he will have to retrieve iron with reckless abandon, he will have to hunt like an idiot for 10 minutes in the hotest part of the day without stopping for a drink of cool water in the bucket next to him, he will have fight like a lion in a muzzle, and on a full body suit without being able to be peeled off, he will have to engage a passive decoy with no equipment and remain engaged in combat with that passive decoy for several minutes while in a muzzle, he will also have to be social and allow strangers to handle him, put a harness on him,and lift him over their heads without showing any aggression.
Tell me.......at what age would you begin this work, and in what way?


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

DANG Mike who the hell does all that crazy stuff???????


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Jody Butler said:


> DANG Mike who the hell does all that crazy stuff???????


LOL, the Girl Scouts!


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Makes perfect sense for you to do those things. I think the only concern is, do you believe you're enabling them to do these things, or whether their capability is in some way altered by these excercises? True enough, some parts are enhanced from learning by doing (balance beams, stairs), but the inherent character is less altered. Such as with dog aggression, where the aggressive dog learns to suppress the unwanted behavior (perhaps to avoid correction), though it's always there, under the surface. Or, by exposure to various environmental contexts where they learn that particular behavior isn't so useful or necessary as the dog originally believed.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

You are just talking about training. I am talking about what the dog IS.

Nice try though. I would probably do all that the way I do what I do now. If the pup is an agile little ****er, I would probably begin TRAINING about three weeks after I get it. If not, then I would do what I always do and wait and see.

That is all cute, but I have had a lot of dogs that would work in any noisy area you want to pick without losing their minds. I didn't do anything any different.

So, when you go through all the coniptions that you do when they are small and they cannot walk the ladder because they are too afraid then what ?? Did you change what they were with all the ENS bullshit ??

NO. 

Man, you got to come up with something better than that to try and convince me that ENS is anything but a goof.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: 
I think it's better left as it is Jeff. You don't want to understand and I honestly have no desire to discuss what I do with my dogs with you any more.

Like Mike Suttle said - he probably didn't have any good dogs. Neither did I.

WTF is up your ass ??


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Matt Grosch said:


> He is about 8 months, I figure I need to come up with as many things as possible while he is still young. Ive done the swimming pool, last night I took him to the high school when it was pretty dark and had him going up the bleachers with me. He goes up the playground equipment at the grade school next door.
> 
> I plan on taking him to the firing range....but Im looking for other good suggestions.


 
After about 4-6 mos. of age the socializing period is over. During this period, you have a lot of flexiblity to expose the dog to enviormental stimulus and make them more accepting of what they encounter. There are genetic limits within the dog to what the dog can handle. 

After that, you have to associate the stimulus with something good. Such as if I took the dog to a firing range, I may do it from afar at first, and feed the dog it's meal. Then slowly moving closer over time. Also I may not go to the range at first, but take the dog to field throw it's ball and when the dog gets his ball, fire a blank gun. then get closer and closer over time.

Sorry if this is all old news to you. But I think that just exposure after 4-6 mos to a stimulus could backfire.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> You are just talking about training. I am talking about what the dog IS.
> 
> Nice try though. I would probably do all that the way I do what I do now. If the pup is an agile little ****er, I would probably begin TRAINING about three weeks after I get it. If not, then I would do what I always do and wait and see.
> 
> ...


Ya know Jeff, I typed a few paragraphs here as a reply to this, but then decided to just drop it. I suppose it is easy to say that your dogs will have no trouble with any of the things I mentioned, especially since they will likely never be tested to see how they react to most of those things.
I will continue to do what I have to do to get dogs to pass these tests, and you just keep believing that all of your dogs will do it without any preparation. We will just leave it at that.
There was once a time when i heard about these types of tests and I also thought to myself that it would be easy to get a dog to do those things, now I know better.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Well then, that would be a training issue now wouldn't it ??

It all goes back to this one thing. WHen you do all that stuff and the dog doesn't have it, and doesn't cut it, did the ENS really do anything for you ??

I am not saying that the training is easy or anything like that, I am questioning the ENS and whether or not the dog will now pass because of it, or was it there to begin with ??


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

mike suttle said:


> Ya know Jeff, I typed a few paragraphs here as a reply to this, but then decided to just drop it. I suppose it is easy to say that your dogs will have no trouble with any of the things I mentioned, especially since they will likely never be tested to see how they react to most of those things.
> I will continue to do what I have to do to get dogs to pass these tests, and you just keep believing that all of your dogs will do it without any preparation. We will just leave it at that.
> There was once a time when i heard about these types of tests and I also thought to myself that it would be easy to get a dog to do those things, now I know better.


 
Especially with Malinois, I think this is more important. Just like building drive is not always necassry with Malinois, But maybe for the majority of GSDs. I think it's the exact opposite for Malinois, we have to do a shit load more to take the edge off thier nervey disposition many of them have, I would suspect that GSDs for the majority do not need as much of this.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I have no idea if the dogs I currently own would be able to go through any of that. I don't care. My dog your dog his dog shouldn't be a part of this conversation. 

Did the ENS change what the dog innate character was ?? No, it does not. If you isolated a really genetically correct pup with no contact with humans until it is 5 months old, would you set it back ?? Would it be game over ??

More than likely yes, but that is really hard to accomplish. You get a pup and it is what it is. I took my 9 week old GSD (not Esko) out for a walk and we were standing at the curb and the bus went flying by inches from the curb. He actually leaned in a bit to sniff at it. This dog had no ENS, no extra work, no nothing.


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## Colin Chin (Sep 20, 2006)

James Downey said:


> Especially with Malinois, I think this is more important. Just like building drive is not always necassry with Malinois, But maybe for the majority of GSDs. I think it's the exact opposite for Malinois, we have to do a shit load more to take the edge off thier nervey disposition many of them have, I would suspect that GSDs for the majority do not need as much of this.


James,
Care to elaborate a bit more on the disposition of a Mal ? Why are they more nervy at the very first place ? Talking about building drive, aren't Mal have more drives than let say a GSD in comparison to start with ? This is why many ppl are in for Mal than GSD nowadays. OT a bit here, is it true that not many Mal make it to work if compares to GSD ? Or, what we see on those Mal that can work are small ratio ? Thanks.

Colin


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I have no idea if the dogs I currently own would be able to go through any of that. I don't care. My dog your dog his dog shouldn't be a part of this conversation.
> 
> Did the ENS change what the dog innate character was ?? No, it does not. If you isolated a really genetically correct pup with no contact with humans until it is 5 months old, would you set it back ?? Would it be game over ??
> 
> More than likely yes, but that is really hard to accomplish. You get a pup and it is what it is. I took my 9 week old GSD (not Esko) out for a walk and we were standing at the curb and the bus went flying by inches from the curb. He actually leaned in a bit to sniff at it. This dog had no ENS, no extra work, no nothing.


 
I think that the minute a puppy is born, the world around the dog effects the dog either positivlely or negatively and can forever change the dog. Charcter is not something that is pre-programmed and will be what is always will be no matter what. The effectiveness of specific programs like ENS can be disputed. But I think that every puppy, dog, whatever from the minute it's born is taking information in, processing it, and making adjustments to adapt to the world. To believe that you cannot help or hurt the puppy or dog by managing the enviorment or not managing the enivorment baffles me. Learning is always happening. 

Jeff have you ever heard of Baby Albert?


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Jeff, you follow soccer I see. Who was that dude that you posted not too long ago that was out of this world? Doesn't matter really. But where, or rather when do you think he started? Certainly not at 30, not 20, probably not at 15 either. You think it mattered? Would he have always been great?

I think about motocross riders like Travis Pastrana or Ricky Carmichael or Jeremy McGrath. Where do you think they started? Or maybe better yet, when do you think they started? You think they just had it or was their ability to ride and ride to win developed over time through stress, conditioning, and experience? I know grown men who picked up riding (my husband being one of them) who had that "edge" or what you'd think would be the needed that balls to the walls crazy ass wild mentality to ride and do well but the reality is he'd never have anything on those guys who started early in life. How could anyone? How many trainers and decoys say, boy I wish I'd have started at your age? You think that's wishful thinking about nothing or maybe there's something to getting exposure earlier, when you were more mentally and physically resilient? 

I figure you don't really see it the same way or probably don't find that this analogy applies but I think it does. You might just be right, but I am not so sure you are and I don't know that I want to wait until my dog is 2 years old before I put it in a bush plane for the first time or accidentally forget the dog is around and fire a .45 or .338 on the firing range to see what's going to happen. 

You talk about noise simulation for puppies, yelling you called it right? I remember getting my ass chewed a few times in school by teachers, by peers, and in the military and I tell you that nothing could top the shit my dad threw my way. I was accustomed to it by then and about the only thing it motivated me to do was fight. Take some punk ass kid in boot camp whose never been yelled at. What happened? Many of 'em break and those who didn't maybe ended up in the psych ward and some might just actually adapt, improvise, and overcome.

I doubt there's much that could be said to change your mind but I am tempted to raise a dog in this so called closet you speak of and let it out at two and see what it does in Mike's world. The deal is, if it don't go right or rather the way you say a good dog should turn out - then you get to take the dog off my hands. Sound like a deal?


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Colin Chin said:


> James,
> Care to elaborate a bit more on the disposition of a Mal ? Why are they more nervy at the very first place ? Talking about building drive, aren't Mal have more drives than let say a GSD in comparison to start with ? This is why many ppl are in for Mal than GSD nowadays. OT a bit here, is it true that not many Mal make it to work if compares to GSD ? Or, what we see on those Mal that can work are small ratio ? Thanks.
> 
> Colin


 
I do not know why Malinois in a general sense seem to be more nervous, sharp, reactive... whatever you want to call it. Selective breeding gives us what we have... But they are, they seem to be more suspicious of the world than GSD do. Now you can play semantics all day on what nervousness is or whatever. But not all Malinois are this way, and many Malinois use there senstivity to stimulus in ways which make them good dogs for protection work. 

As for the drive thing, that's what I said...we do not have to spend as much time building drive typically as most people do with a GSD. 

I am not sure on the stats on how many mals compared to GSDs make it to the actual work. But it would not suprise me that less Malinois are successful compared to GSDs Per captia so to speak. But it also would not suprise that out of the dogs that are able to do the work...More GSDs are mediocre at thier core than Malinois...Basically what I am saying is that GSDs that can work...and I am just talking in temperment not training...are much more limited in thier genetic potential of how far they can go and the Malinois that can work, have less limitation on thier genetic potential. there is more of an all or nothing thing with Malinois.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Nicole Stark said:


> I think about motocross riders like Travis Pastrana or Ricky Carmichael or Jeremy McGrath. Where do you think they started? Or maybe better yet, when do you think they started? You think they just had it or was their ability to ride and ride to win developed over time through stress, conditioning, and experience? I know grown men who picked up riding (my husband being one of them) who had that "edge" or what you'd think would be the needed that balls to the walls crazy ass wild mentality to ride and do well but the reality is he'd never have anything on those guys who started early in life. How could anyone? How many trainers and decoys say, boy I wish I'd have started at your age? You think that's wishful thinking about nothing or maybe there's something to getting exposure earlier, when you were more mentally and physically resilient?


 
Nicole...A great book to read on this exact subject is called "Outliers" by Malcolm Gladwell. Check it out, I guarntee it will change the way you train. It's a study on how the greats...became the greats and the little things that happened that made them stand out amongst the crowd. And to my suprise starting young was not a huge factor, and sometimes was a problem...holding them back so they were more phyically, emotionally and mentally mature against the competetion was more of a factor. This in turn, made coaches and teachers take notice. The Coaches and teachers would then spend more time with the prodigies...thus giving them a little more of an edge....the book goes on to talk about on what was once a little more skill simply due to maturity compounds on itself over time. The little perks the prodigy recieves because of the talent provided from the perk before. The prodigy' s either on purpose or by accident were not taught the specific skills for thier profession as early the competetion, but rather were given the chance to have more raw ability when they started. They could run faster, jump higher, deal with emotion, and learn more. when they started but did have not have the technical skills as early as the other kids but they could learn and perform faster and do the necassary skills better. Read the book, you'll understand what I am getting at. I was once a believer that teaching the Skill early was important but with my next dog, I will work raising them to have the raw ability to perform what I ask of them later...not the skills themselves.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Sounds interesting so I made note of the book and author. I'll pick it up after work tomorrow if I can find it locally. My first inclination is that we might be talking about two slightly different things because I was relating more to physical and mental challenges over say actual training which I do believe there is value in withholding or limiting. 

I have a mental picture of what you were getting at though and if it's what I think it is, I do believe the two play different very different roles in development. For example I see too much or overemphasis on achievement being a hinderance on development and to some extent true character. I've seen it with people and dogs alike but have not see those same setbacks in physical and mental conditioning started at an early age.

Thanks for the tip. I'll let you know what I think when I finish the book.


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

Just a thought......but



If it was something like being exposed to flash-bangs, first from a distance, then up close......how could prior, positive, exposure not make a dog handle it better in real life?

Same thing with some of the K9's that work near the beach, if they are expected to go in the water, and have never been in when its really cold.......


Couldnt a good dog have issues with stuff if they are exposed to it for the first time, and that is a time when it counts?


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Nicole Stark said:


> Jeff, you follow soccer I see. Who was that dude that you posted not too long ago that was out of this world? Doesn't matter really. But where, or rather when do you think he started? Certainly not at 30, not 20, probably not at 15 either. You think it mattered? Would he have always been great?
> 
> I think about motocross riders like Travis Pastrana or Ricky Carmichael or Jeremy McGrath. Where do you think they started? Or maybe better yet, when do you think they started? You think they just had it or was their ability to ride and ride to win developed over time through stress, conditioning, and experience? I know grown men who picked up riding (my husband being one of them) who had that "edge" or what you'd think would be the needed that balls to the walls crazy ass wild mentality to ride and do well but the reality is he'd never have anything on those guys who started early in life. How could anyone? How many trainers and decoys say, boy I wish I'd have started at your age? You think that's wishful thinking about nothing or maybe there's something to getting exposure earlier, when you were more mentally and physically resilient?
> 
> ...


It is interesting that you should reference MX here:
When I got out of the Marine Corps I went to school at MMI (motorcycle mechanics institute) in Orlando FL. From my first day in Orlando and for the next 2 years I worked full time at a motocross performance shop by day, and went to school at MMI at night. While I was working at this shop (called Performance Engineering) we were sponsoring a few young riders who you may have heard of: Ricky Carmichael, James Stewart, Davi Millsaps, Ernesto Fonseca, Andre Pene, Anthony Pocaroba, Ronnie Tincher. All of these kids (now adults) started riding and racing when they were very, very young. I still have one of Davi Millsaps KX 60s. My oldest son is now 2 1/2 and he has been riding a Yamaha PW 50 with training wheels since he was 22 months old. I still have a very good personal relationship with many top factory pro riders and I will be taking both of my boys to MX schools with these guys a few times a year starting when they are about 5 or so.
There are two things in this world that I know a lot about, shooting and MX. The best players in both of these worlds started when they were very young. My oldest son is also already learning how to shoot.
I have no plans on forcing my boys to be pro MX'ers or National level shooters, but I am giving them every opportunity in case they decide they want to try to achieve that goal.
Way off topic here I know, but you struck a topic that is very near and dear to my heart.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Matt Grosch said:


> Just a thought......but
> 
> 
> 
> ...


These are rhetorical questions right?


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

For sure. I followed MX closely for a number of years, eventually that interest faded into MMA and prior to that it was classic cars - specifically my Mustangs. But yea, I remember some of those boys were in the early Crusty videos, maybe 7 or so years old at the time. It most certainly does not appear to be a coincidence that they became great at what they did.

Keep at it. I bet we'll be seeing one if not both of your boys on TV or in the news later down the road. Mike you are starting to remind me of Jamie from Mythbusters. Hasn't he done just about everything cool in the world as a profession?? 8)


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Nicole Stark said:


> For sure. I followed MX closely for a number of years, eventually that interest faded into MMA and prior to that it was classic cars - specifically my Mustangs. But yea, I remember some of those boys were in the early Crusty videos, maybe 7 or so years old at the time. It most certainly does not appear to be a coincidence that they became great at what they did.
> 
> Keep at it. I bet we'll be seeing one if not both of your boys on TV or in the news later down the road. Mike you are starting to remind me of Jamie from Mythbusters. Hasn't he done just about everything cool in the world as a profession?? 8)


 Damn Nicole..........MX, MMA, guns, classic cars, dogs.............where the hell were you when I was a single guy??????


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

In Alaska , or maybe even Miami, Colorado Springs, Indianapolis, Memphis, Hong Kong, Oakland, Milwaukee, Seattle, somewhere in Canada, maybe a beach in Maui... LOL guess it depends on the timeframe.


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> Damn Nicole..........MX, MMA, guns, classic cars, dogs.............where the hell were you when I was a single guy??????


In my experience, it doesn't work the other way around. I like martial arts, high performance cars, brew beer, have a decent knowledge of good spirits and wine, like dogs, enjoy shooting guns, and like to fish. And my wife couldnt' care about any of that stuff. She just wants her cat, blanket, Gin & tonic, and a clean house. :-# She sure doesn't care about the working dog trial in Chicago or the long barrel .44 Magnum or the 10-gallon split batch of Flanders Red Ale (two different yeast strains) I've got aging in the basement going on two years or the bottles of Ardbeg Airdh Nam Beist I picked up either.

-Cheers


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## kristin tresidder (Oct 23, 2008)

mike suttle said:


> He was exposed to hundreds of rounds of .45 ACP during his stay here with me, it did not phase him.
> Also was exposed to several hundred .223 and .308 rounds as well. he has been into a few airports, he has been around livestock, he has been around kids, crowds of people, motocross practice track with 7 or 8 bikes racing around. He has been on stairs a couple times, on slick floors everyday, ran with the ATV in the woods along with other dogs, been in the school house and the firehouse, on the playground, and around running farm equipment.Climbed around on a giant (about 40' high) wood pile,


 


Jeff Oehlsen said:


> for me, you build a pup up as much as possible all the time.
> I do stuff with pups after they are walking around. I take them around and let them see some stuff


 
from the oustide looking in, you guys are basically saying the same thing here, mike is just being more specific about which scenarios his dogs are "seeing." all dogs fall somewhere on a scale, there's going to be a 'best' and a 'worst' pup in the litter. no matter how good the overall consistency of the litter is, there is going to be a 'pick puppy,' and one (probably more) that a breeder can let go and still sleep at night. exposing pups to new situations/stimuli _is_ building them up mentally and physically, & is also letting the breeder see which pups have a weaker character at the same time.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

mike suttle said:


> Damn Nicole..........MX, MMA, guns, classic cars, dogs.............where the hell were you when I was a single guy??????



Mike,

I don't know how old you are and of course I wouldn't even ask how old Nicole is  
In my own case most of the women I run into who are into dog training and fast cars and and guns etc. etc. Were NOT even born when I was single VBG


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## Guest (Oct 9, 2009)

kristin tresidder said:


> from the oustide looking in, you guys are basically saying the same thing here, mike is just being more specific about which scenarios his dogs are "seeing." all dogs fall somewhere on a scale, there's going to be a 'best' and a 'worst' pup in the litter. no matter how good the overall consistency of the litter is, there is going to be a 'pick puppy,' and one (probably more) that a breeder can let go and still sleep at night. exposing pups to new situations/stimuli _is_ building them up mentally and physically, & is also letting the breeder see which pups have a weaker character at the same time.


Here's how I'm distilling it in my mind.

Starting with the EARLY stimulation of pups....

Don says most of those stimuli are things which puppies experience _anyway_ while jostling around with each other...and in fact, they are doing it 24/7. The person comes in a does it a couple minutes a day? Investing a ton of time into it is simply being redundant and you can expect your returns to be so diminished as to be barely noticable. To me, that's kind of a clue about the effectiveness of it...when people phrase things in vague, non-committal way. It's kinda like knowing the symptoms of someone being on drugs to an intoxicating level. The symptoms are *distinct and unmistakable...*there's no wishful thinking, and it lends itself easily to a double-blind evaluation. Easily.

Now I know that's been done with monkeys and rats and stuff. But in that case we're talking about a lone infant being left alone in a steel cage vs. degrees of attention. That's a whole lot different than being in the midst of a litter with an attentive mother.

The extension of that in later puppy hood....

...which Jeff is saying, is that unless you're locking the dog up, you should be taking him here and there in the course of a very average and effortless puppy hood. It's "socializing" whether you want to call it that or not. But, investing a whole bunch more net effort into finding wierd stuff is going to have diminishing returns on the dog who shouldn't be bothered by most it in the first place. 

So genes and acccidental/incidental socialization is 99% of it. So let's say someone is _investing 50% more time than they would have_...for only a 1% return on confidence from exposure. Kind of pointless perhaps.

I'm just translating.

Does someone on that side agree with that assessment?


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

For the little amount of time it takes and the enjoyment of the exposure to the pups for you and them  Who is to argue that it would hurt them? Probably nobody, but to NOT do this at all and keep a pup in the dark the whole time to me is just wrong on many accounts and doesn't even parallel dog training. Genetics, breeding, stimuli, drives, throw it all out the window, as a successful breeder, handler, trainer and hobbyist, you try to expose your pups/dogs to as many things possible to set them up for success in the real world regardless of what they are doing.

Soldiers/Jarheads for instance.......You don't just train to a standard as a new recruit to immediately go into combat, you train and prep for what is expected of you on the battlefield. We all know Jeff is a Jarhead and an old one at that.  LOL But times are changing and what was done then is totally different now. Infantrymen aren't training with 5.56mm on a flat range as the majority of their training, they are training with AK47's, M4, M16, Explosive, HME, CQB, etc, WHY???? That is what they will encounter in combat, to take that training or exposure from them is criminal!!!! 

I am not here to give scientific fact or to argue anyones points which all are valid points/theories, however, why NOT give the dog a chance expose them to EVERYTHING possible, it can only make them better, even if he is only a shitter!

I don't want to know what if I didn't have the training and I had to go to Combat, I WANT THE TRAINING, so I think we owe it to our dogs to give them the best esposure/training possible.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

When I first started training dogs, everyone said you had to wait until they were 6 months old to start. I saw some really well trained dogs that went under that program.

At the same time, the Germans didn't do shit with their dogs till they were a year old. They just lived in a kennel and were taken out for exercise. Back then, and to this day, they have better dogs than we do for many many reasons. Now Kristen tells me you can polish a turd, and had a video to prove it, but you are gonna get the same results by not messing with the pups till they are up and moving around, PLUS, it was easier to tell who was who. In the end, the differences were very slight, and it didn't really matter. The big challenge was getting the dog to a home that would actually do something with the dog.

The goal in breeding should be to get to the point where getting the dog to the right home is more important than thinking that tickling a puppies feet is gonna get you anywhere.

As far as an early start goes, I don't think it is that important. Most people I have seen train are quite bad at it, and a bit overcontrolling, so it behooves them to get to it quite early before the dog can start to argue with them.

I also think that using human sports as an example is pathetic. We don't ask that much from the dogs.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

For the record, "Once a Marine always a Marine", as they say, your service is appreciated and respected whenever and whoever. Thank You!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Whatever man, I look at combat as natural selection. LOL If you cannot grab an AK and fire it then you have some serious mental deficiencies. All of the weapons are made for the dumbest ****s on the planet to operate, and are not that difficult to use.

How you use them is where the art form comes in. If you have picked up several of the enemies weapons and have flanked him during a firefight, it behooves you to start your assault with these weapons, as they sound like the weapons the enemy are using, and will cause damage and confusion.

That's just me though. I want to destroy the enemy mentally as well as physically. I want to send their immortal soul to lucifer, and their minds I will keep for myself.

A shitter is a shitter is a shitter. That is just how it is. Can't fix pussy, and shouldn't try. Snap it's neck and pay attention to the pups that don't suck.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

LOL, everyone has their opinion, and Combat being natural selection......I think otherwise......

But do agree on the enemey situation!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Now if we could just get the little warlord wannabees (politicians) to stay the **** out of shit, maybe we wouldn't look like a bunch of idiots running around afghanastan.

Been there HOW long ? We should own that country by now.


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## Guest (Oct 9, 2009)

> but to NOT do this at all and keep a pup in the dark the whole time


Gotta be careful about things like that. They are called "straw man" arguments. That is, making up a position which nobody made in order to easily refute it.

I didn't hear anybody talking about keeping dogs in the dark the whole time. Ever. Not once.

If someone did, you'd be right to disagree with it though :!:


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Steve, expression! 

1) Someones shitter today will most probably perform better than most good/great dogs! (Everyone has a different take on what a good/great, high drive, extreme, over the top, you know is)

2) Combat isn't natural selection, however is "THE TEST" of which hopefully you were prepared and trained for, if not YES your a SHITTER! 

3) I agree, won't get into the politics, but we should own the country and it should be a DUSTBOWL, and an emtpy one at that!


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Jody Butler said:


> LOL, everyone has their opinion, and Combat being natural selection......I think otherwise......
> 
> But do agree on the enemey situation!


 

I have never been in combat, I do not know if Jeff has. But I do serve with Marines whom are now Coasties. My best friend was force recon in the Marines, and now a Rescue Swimmer in the Coast Guard. He has been in Combat. He is a rank lower than me on paper. But when the man has something to say, I listen. Because he has experience life at it's purest form. I may disagree with Jeff on many things, but if he has been combat, I will take his word on it. Because I find that men whom have been shot, shot at, shot back and killed and wounded people tend to have an outlook on the world that only combat can bring. And again that is just my experience with people whom have been in combat. The do not brag about it, nor do they make false claims about it. The ones whom do, I know in an instant have never experienced combat.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

So what exactly are you saying....LOL

I never questioned Jeff's Combat nor mentioned if I have or not, of which will not be discussed on this forum, however was stating the points of selection and training and comparing it to dogs, maybe I'm a dumbass who knows. And, from what you said about rank, I agree and respect that, rank is immaterial when it comes down to it. You train and fight together and have each others back! Period!


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

"I am not here to give scientific fact or to argue anyones points which all are valid points/theories, however, why NOT give the dog a chance expose them to EVERYTHING possible, it can only make them better, even if he is only a shitter!"

First off, a good dog doesn't have to be exposed to everything....just enough to know there are things out there that he hasn't seen yet. Look at all the stuff you never saw as a child but when you did, it didn't freak you out. That is because you were exposed enough to know there is another world out there. The problem comes when the pups/young dogs never get to leave the kennel(or crate for those so inclined). It becomes their world. This has nothing to do with ENS. This is the older pups and the different exposures don't have to be earthshaking,, but, enough for the pup to realize he will be seeing new things occasionally.

On the other hand, if the dog is going to have to walk on a moving conveyor...might be a good idea to put him on there fairly young....if he is just going to have to look at it...it won't be a big deal. 
The thing to remember is that everything will have a stronger impact, good or bad, on the lkess confident pups. Keep that in mind because if you get carried away with exposing....it could set the dog back since you have little control in public places.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: 
1) Someones shitter today will most probably perform better than most good/great dogs!

Then their definition of shitter is ****ed. Lately, as you know, I have seen some nice dogs that had some really shitty training, or is that too much for me to give them the word training ?? Abuse is more like it. There was nothing shitty about the dogs, just what was done to them.

How is your "shitter" doing anyway ?? LOL


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

The mother of my dog, Joker LDS both were puppies whom needed some time and someone with a brain to raise them. The mother of my dog, had some ghosts in her head as baby. She would be suspicious of 1 lone person. If a group of people came around a corner she was fine. When one person showed up she would be ready to bite them. And Joker was afraid to enter a gate at 6 months old. Both handlers took thier time, addressed the problem, played on the dogs strong points to overcome the temperment issues. The mother of my dog won a regionals with a 292. not to shabby. And Joker is one of the most successful Malinois to come out of the LDS kennel. Now I do get that you cannot "install" something in a dog that is not there. If the dog can be "raised" to be a good dog and do the work even if it did not show it in the beginning . That was in thier genetics the whole time. It was/is part of thier charcter. So, I do not discredit the dogs whom did not hit the ground running, and were not able to be thrown to the wolves so to speak. Thier is no such thing as world championship puppy, thier are only competetions for dogs, not puppies. So in the end...I think thier are people whom have had success with dogs that Jeff would have snapped thier necks. That is a fact. And being Buko is Jokers brother... what's in his closet that we do not know about. I am sure they share a few traits that would not be desirable. Maybe Buko did not share as many, but I am sure he was not born the perfect puppy, whom needed absolutley no help. 

I just cannot wrap my head around this idea that if the puppy is not exactly what you wish and has some things about that maybe considered baggage...which all puppys have, then it's a shitter. There have been people whom have proven this to be false, through competetion. Now are all these dogs worthy of breeding, of course not. But it does not mean that they are not worthy of competetion. I would rather be a dog trainer, than one who purchases the perfect puppy.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Buko doesn't have a closet, he has a small lock box. As he is getting older, when he gets frustrated by Soda not letting him have the ball, he paces. Not sure how long he will circle her, but I am sure it would be a long time.

Until a really bad lightning storm, where there were lightning strikes in the hundreds or just over a thousand, he never had a problem with that, but he does now. I remember the hair on my arms standing straight up andthe hair on my head was up as well. They were all real close. He was 4 at the time.

15 year old girls have more time to deal with retarded shit than I do. You are right though, I would have snapped Jokers neck. I wouldn't have a problem with it as you do, because what the **** good is a dog with that many problems ?? Maybe you would want a dog like that so you can be Sch superboy or whatever, but I don't care for shit like that. That is just me. However, you could probably put your bitch together with Joker and get something like that. Maybe that is your kind of dog, it is not mine.

THere are plenty of dogs out there that do well in the different sports that are not afraid of gates and whatnot. Good thing they chose to do Sch. Then again, he must not of been a whole lot of fun, as Brittany no longer owns him. He went to another person that wants to do high level Sch. Considering he is 6 now, where will he go when he is no longer doing Sch ??

That is something to be considered. Buko got a different roll of the dice for sure. He sleeps with me on the bed here and there and is a pretty col dog to hang out with, no fear of gates or goofy shit like that. The one time he was worked on a Sch sleeve he had looked like he had done it for years, it was all the way in the back of his skull. Not at all like how he bites on a suit.

Buko's biggest problem is his owners lack of funds, and the lack of experienced decoys. I saw him when he was 3 months old, and he was a little standoffish to me. Hilliard had his doubts even then, but I didn't. I got him at 10 1/2 months after God knows what they did to him to get him to go. LOL I have heard way to many conflicting stories. From they didn't do anything, to they frustrated the piss out of him over and over.

Never could figure how they didn't know what they had done with him. : )


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

James, you are assumng they were shitters because they pickd up some baggage. Maybe they were great pups to start and no one could see it because of ENS, which tens to make them all look like solid dogs. Did it take an excessive amount of bitework to get them to the top?


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> James, you are assumng they were shitters because they pickd up some baggage. Maybe they were great pups to start and no one could see it because of ENS, which tens to make them all look like solid dogs. Did it take an excessive amount of bitework to get them to the top?


I do not think they picked it up...Joker was in hands of some pretty intellgent trainers before being transfered to a girl whom got him over it. and My dogs mother I know for a fact was like this at 8 weeks old, from Danskejold. I am not sure what LDS does with thier pups, and Nor do I know what Danskejold does either....But the Danskejold bitch, has a brother whom had success at the world level. My dogs mother was simply allowed to mature, doing some bitework but not a lot. So no, actually just leaving her alone was the recipe used to help her. He did not force the issue. As for Joker, I am not sure what the girl who got him did to help. I was not introduced to the dog, till about 18 mos. I do not assume they were shitters, Actually I assume they were not...they have it in them to be able to do the work. The exact opposite of a shitter. They just need someone who was a dog trainer, not someone looking to purchase a bullet proof puppy.

But again if ENS or some other program was employed to help them, I do not think it's fake....The dogs are really doing the work. So, I think that the dog had the genetic ability to be able to overcome this. This is what I mean about you cannot install something that is not there. If you can install it, It's there.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Buko doesn't have a closet, he has a small lock box. As he is getting older, when he gets frustrated by Soda not letting him have the ball, he paces. Not sure how long he will circle her, but I am sure it would be a long time.
> 
> Until a really bad lightning storm, where there were lightning strikes in the hundreds or just over a thousand, he never had a problem with that, but he does now. I remember the hair on my arms standing straight up andthe hair on my head was up as well. They were all real close. He was 4 at the time.
> 
> ...


 
Actually Brittney has the dog again. She never sold him from what I understand...she just was mailing him off to different handlers to trial him...and then Mark got him, liked him, asked to have him for a piece and trialed him. But Brittney loves Jo, do not think she would sell him. I think he is doing flyball now, and sleeping on the couch. When I was working with Joker, he was an awesome dog to work whom loved the game. You could still see some of the sharpness in the barking, but that's about it. He was happy, and willing. 

But you are right that I would not particularly want a puppy like that...I would hope for something with a little less work to be done. But none the less if I get the next Joker, I will try to be a dog trainer.

There are some dogs I would love to compete with, but never in my life would I want a puppy from them. And the opposite is true, dogs I would never want to compete with, let alone own....But sure would like a puppy from. The ol' argument of, Do not breed to the world champion, simply because he won...but that does not rule out that I would be honored to own a dog like that.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Jeff, My shitter is doing great, no issues, calmed him down and less hectic all around, no issues, social (But on guard) and no issues, hunts like a machine and toy/ball drive is fantastic. Getting him to Out was the issue, but strict OB has corrected alot of the issues. 

So I guess he is a shitter and I am hiding his defaults right! 

I like him anyway and so do alot of other folks who see him work, however are a little afraid.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

WTF is there to be afraid of ?? Good God, he wasn't likely to out, so what is the big deal ?? Call them pussies for me would ya ??


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Jody Butler said:


> Jeff, My shitter is doing great, no issues, calmed him down and less hectic all around, no issues, social (But on guard) and no issues, hunts like a machine and toy/ball drive is fantastic. Getting him to Out was the issue, but strict OB has corrected alot of the issues.
> 
> So I guess he is a shitter and I am hiding his defaults right!
> 
> I like him anyway and so do alot of other folks who see him work, however are a little afraid.


You have a very nice dog there for sure Jody. I had no issues with him at all when he was here. He would out for me with no problem. He is a very stubborn dog by nature and that caused the first K-9 handler that I sold him to many problems. This guy was an idiot in my opinion and ruined two excellent dogs from me before I refunded his money and told him to go away. (so I am also an idiot for letting this shit happen twice)
Anyway, the first time I had Duco here for several months and not one time did he ever try to bite me.
When I got him back from the idiot in Colorodo he was crazy and had a lot of conflict in his head.
I think now he is calming down again and getting more clear. They just had him spun into orbit all the time, and had no idea how to control or channel him.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

> I was once a believer that teaching the Skill early was important but with my next dog, I will work raising them to have the raw ability to perform what I ask of them later...not the skills themselves.


I picked up the book today, curious to see what this was about. What struck me in the first few chapters was that it seems to suggest that those who utilize ENS just might be on to something. Here is a quote from the book that loosely supports the idea:

"Success is the result of what sociologists like to call "accumulative advantage". The professional hockey player starts out a little bit better than his peers. And that little difference leads to an opportunity that makes that difference a bit bigger, and that edge in turn leads to another opportunity, which makes the initially small difference bigger still - and on and on until the hockey player is a genuine outlier. But he didn't start out an outlier. He started out just a little bit better."

When we're talking about dogs, we're not necessarily talking about arbitrary age cut offs like we would be in sports. But what we are talking about in direct relationship to this conversation is he who started out just a little bit better. Take that back up to the top of the quote and for me it seems the answer is clear. Yes, it does matter. Arbitrary or not, perhaps all it really comes down is the individual it matters to and the subsequent opportunities brought to those subjects deemed to be "just a little bit better".


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

"Accumulative advantage" would also be an effect of behavior imprinting, as based on my interpretation in the beginning of this thread. Heck, having good genetics beforehand is "accumulative advantage".

Epigenetics, ENS, imprinting, socialization, conditioning, training; These are all things that we affect either intentionally or not, or happen either with or without our involvement anyway, in the dog’s total life experience. Where does socialization end, and conditioning begin? What’s the real difference between ENS and imprinting? The line between each of these can be a bit… well, fuzzy at times. Because we’re trying to quantify what’s put into the dog, rather than what comes with it.

There should be no doubt in anyone’s mind, that one dog will be genetically superior to another in regards to specific work that’s to be performed. They’re simply not brought out of the box with the same inborn level of “aptitude” for a given type of activity. This is of course even more evident when comparing pups from different breeds.

What the dog learns from experience: as in, exposures and learning, will also make some difference. Better yet, to be born gifted as well as developed and handled expertly. You can’t expect the overall dog to be accurately assessed by attempting to quantify the nature and nurture (genetics and environment) as if they're completely independent of each other. Indeed, the very distinction between genes and environment itself, can be a bit fuzzy at times.

Now, it should be pretty obvious why a breeder needs a greater understanding of heredity, and a handler should emphasize more importance in matters of trainability. Conversely, a breeder should have a sufficient grasp of training techniques, and a handler able to some degree identify what is a natural inborn talent. A breeder should also be aware of what a potential producer is not able to impart to its progeny, while a handler should be aware of what aspects of character, nerve strength and drive are going to define the limitations of a working prospect.

So, we can perhaps all agree, that the finished product is fully defined by both its genes and environment. Genes and environment combined, in many various ways, can make a great dog worse or a POS dog a little better. But we always have to remember, that genetic makeup precedes any environmental influence. There from the onset, and unable to be improved, except by genetic recombination in future generations, which won't help or hurt the dog standing before you by any measure. The only way it could, is by parental imprinting (a primarily maternal influence).

So basically, everyone should want the best of both aspects in their dog, and make the most of what they have with the dog that is theirs. Even the breeder, because the success of their kennel can depend on the successful careers of pups from their litters. The breeder that does less with their litters, will have less concern for their judgment to be affected for environmental cause of influence, when making breeding selections based for hereditary focus. For most matters, everything non-genetic about the dog can always wait.

Is environment going to affect a dog beyond its genetic limitations? Perhaps to a degree, but in most instances, not by very much. Sometimes environmental influence received too early or too late can have significant affect overall. Some matters may have their time and place, while others can be dealt with anytime, anyplace. Some bite train early, some wait a year or more. And not all dogs develop at the same pace, either. Some show early presence of strong aggression, some not until four years age, and some yet that never do. Some show ball drive from the beginning, others could care less until they're 8 months old and suddenly wow you, while others yet never will.

It's just one of those things where there is simply no right or wrong answer to the question, whatever works for you should be just fine.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: "Success is the result of what sociologists like to call "accumulative advantage". The professional hockey player starts out a little bit better than his peers. And that little difference leads to an opportunity that makes that difference a bit bigger, and that edge in turn leads to another opportunity, which makes the initially small difference bigger still - and on and on until the hockey player is a genuine outlier. But he didn't start out an outlier. He started out just a little bit better."

Crap crap crap.

Lets look at it a different way. People are always posting pedigrees of their new puppy Bob. He is line bred on so and so 5, 5. 

Lets start there. Bob is pretty much scatter bred. There can be a lot of really nice dogs in the pedigree, but what does Bob bring to the table initially ?? How do I see what Bob is in his raw genetic state, so I know who Bob is, and what I will need to do with him either from a training standpoint, or from what he will need to see that can help him along in life ? ? ? 

I would like to breed Bob, so how do I see what Bob is ?? When is the BEST time to see what Bob is ?? 18 months like in the foolish temperament tests ?? A year ?? 6 months ??

No. The world has influenced him, and I am seeing different things than what Bob really is. I want to see pure Bob, so I am going to want to see him when he is a puppy. I want to see him around 4 to 5 weeks.

What I don't want to see is some artificial confidence caused by artificial means. That is what ENS does, as well as raise thresholds. I used this a couple of litters and produced door stops. What I did raised their thresholds and that is counter productive to what I want in a dog.

The first litter I did this with, I was so pissed off with the results I did a repeat breeding 6 months later, and didn't do shit the first 4-5 weeks ad had much better results, and a lot less pet dogs.

One of the differences was that this was not my first or second or third litter, and the dogs were tightly bred, so I knew a LOT better than poor Bob with his 5,5 breeding.

There is plenty of time to imprint puppies with good stuff later on, after they go to their homes. The good training homes I sent pups to always did better than the middle of the road training homes, no matter which type of pup I sent them.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

so you can pick your stud dog at 4-5 weeks?


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

You can see a good indication of a potential candidate at 5 weeks. That's not to say something won't develop that wasn't entirely expected. Like the males who don't develop full prey drive until later, though it's still genetic by every means. Some other character trait suppresses it meanwhile, and the body spends a lot of energy while growing. My very civilly aggressive male Rook had little ball drive until 8 months, after which having every bit of drive I could need. And my Ozzy revealed his wildly destructive behavior much later, and his overall anxious state of mind. But lame behavior in the beginning is probably a good indication it won't get much better. Better to examine results during the "fear period", and ongoing evaluations any other time from 8 months up to a year that might rule the dog out of your favor. Not everything "genetic" is expressed from the get go, and development speeds can differ between particular bloodlines.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: so you can pick your stud dog at 4-5 weeks?

I can come pretty close. Most of the time it is easy, because there isn't one in the litter.

The way most people breed sure, it is not easy at all, but then, tey are trying to fill a pedigree with a lot of different dogs to make the sale or something.

I am not a big fan of late maturing dogs so that would be something I would want to avoid......and then there is Buko and Soda PoP.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I pick my future breedstock at 4 to 5 weeks. If I couldn't they would be sold. Since pups are sold at about 8 weeks normally, you better have an eye for what you like at a very early age. 

Actually, this is where ENS really screws things up. The positive effect it has on the weaker pups by making them look like something they will never be, makes seeing the difference at such an early age more difficult. Without ENS, the pups are as different as night and day.

Jennifer recently picked up a 12-13 week old pup Jager. That pup was raised in a forested yard and had no exposure to anything else at that age. Once a day starting at 10 weeks I would open the gate and let them come up on the deck for 30 to 45 minutes. Never took them into the house even....although they would push past me when I was trying to get in from the deck. The slick floors had no effect on them at all....not Jager ar any in the litter. I will point out that these pups were born and raised outside with no handling the first 4 weeks. Jennifer pointed out that nothing seems to throw him off environmentally. Never seen a semi before but said they didn't bother him at all. Sure, I have had pups that would not be able top do this .....but the key is I can tell you which ones they are at 4 weeks.....at a glance.

I have total respect for Mike and the way Mike handles his operation. Regardless of the way Mike chooses to handle his pups, they are his to do with as he wishes and everyone has to remember one thing only.....the proof is in the pudding. He puts out some good dogs from what I read. You just can't argue with that. But we have differing views.

Mike thinks picking a stud or great dog at an early age, 4 to 5 weeks is BS . On the other hand, I thing wasting a good dogs best years, until the dog is 4 to 5, is BS. The way Mike handles his dogs is different....totally. He feels you can't see the real dog as long as they are together so he separates them. I feel the opposite and raise them in family units so I can see each dog as he is. Nothing is set in stone.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> ... this is where ENS really screws things up. The positive effect it has on the weaker pups by making them look like something they will never be, makes seeing the difference at such an early age more difficult. Without ENS, the pups are as different as night and day.


Do you feel that the difference stops there or is it carried forward for either a brief period of time or for the life of the dog? From the last few posts I get the impression that the influence is felt to be only temporary and offers just enough to give one a false impression of the true state of things. If that is true, it would be easy enough to rationalize that ENS isn't all that viable and surely it's effectiveness would have been quickly debunked.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

The problem is that when you say that you don't do it, and know that it is retarded, then the immediate attack is that you don't do anything with your pups at all. I can say 4000 times that I do lots of stuff with the pups when they are bobbling around at 4-5 weeks and up, but for some reason, people skip over that part.

The other thing is that there are a lot of "breeders" with 4 litters in 8 years that do this, haven't produced shit, but can tell you all about the wonderful benefits bla bla bla.

Pups are pretty much blobs before 4-5 weeks, so it is not like you are suddenly 20 years behind, and they are all damaged from not having ENS done. I know a few that use it as a marketing tool to sell pups, and I KNOW they don't do it.

The big difference here is that you are waiting till they are old enough to show you what they are at an age where they are just as raw genetic material as possible.....and then you take them and do the things you need to do with them to make them the best you can, or dispose of the pups that are just not gonna cut it.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> The problem is that when you say that you don't do it, and know that it is retarded, then the immediate attack is that you don't do anything with your pups at all. I can say 4000 times that I do lots of stuff with the pups when they are bobbling around at 4-5 weeks and up, but for some reason, people skip over that part.


That's because it's coming from you, Jiff:idea:. What with all the neck snapping, personally held closet monsters that you incorporate into straining out the shitters it's no wonder that people hone into those kind of statements made by you,:-$

You're kinda like the Eddie Haskell of the bunch aint ya? LOL


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Nicole Stark said:


> Do you feel that the difference stops there or is it carried forward for either a brief period of time or for the life of the dog? From the last few posts I get the impression that the influence is felt to be only temporary and offers just enough to give one a false impression of the true state of things. If that is true, it would be easy enough to rationalize that ENS isn't all that viable and surely it's effectiveness would have been quickly debunked.


Nicole, ENS makes weak puppies look solid because they are basically conditioned to being handled. They look good in the house because that is where they were raised. While it gives people a false impression of what they are seeing, it will not hurt the strong pups and it will help the weaker pups to a point but it will never make them solid. They will still revert to their true selves under stress. I feel ENS is a plus for any breeder of pet dogs.....they should all do ENS because nothing out of the ordinary will be expected of most of those dogs and the solid ones will be solid inspite of it. When it comes to working dogs, I would think making the weak ones look better by using artificial props lead to a false sense that you are breeding good working dogs. Truly solid dogs don't need our artificial shoring up. If I were to go look at a litter of pups, I don't want to see what someone has made them look like, I want to see what the dog actually is if I expect to buy a quality working dog. 

Do people today really care if the dog is a top flight protection dog? Not really. They want a dog that looks like one, yes, but most people wouldn't really know what to do with a real serious dog that doesn't need extensive training to have the nerve to attack a sleeve or a suit. I would think that most the training with a really good dog would be on having contol of the dog. The bottom line is people like to train. Beginners think they can make a silk purse out of a sows ear. It just isn't going to happen. Yes, you may have improved on what you started with by investing a lot of time and money, but, why? You still got a mediocre dog in the end. The very quickest way to cure this mentality is to actually have some top flight dogs. Once you have had them, you won't waste your time with the others and you will be able to tell the difference.

Most of the disagreements I see on the boards are because some people have really great dogs and the rest don't and won't admit it but it is like comparing apples to oranges.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Is it a general assumption here that ENS is typically used with the intention of making weaker dogs look more promising than they are? If that's the case, then for those who are not - say the military for example, who I don't believe sells their dogs to the general public, what would their motivation be for employing ENS?

I'm asking, not for the sake of argument, I don't have interest in engaging in arguments over different points of view but I am interested in understanding why the military utilizes it to begin with. Is it to simply increase the viability of their working dog program because they're too cheap or inexperienced to see the necessary qualities of a good dog at an early age? Or are there other benefits to doing so?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Nicole Stark said:


> Is it a general assumption here that ENS is typically used with the intention of making weaker dogs look more promising than they are? If that's the case, then for those who are not - say the military for example, who I don't believe sells their dogs to the general public, what would their motivation be for employing ENS?
> 
> I'm asking, not for the sake of argument, I don't have interest in engaging in arguments over different points of view but I am interested in understanding why the military utilizes it to begin with. Is it to simply increase the viability of their working dog program because they're too cheap or inexperienced to see the necessary qualities of a good dog at an early age? Or are there other benefits to doing so?


No one does it thinking they are just helping the weak....they think it is going to make super dogs out of all of them. It won't. People are gullible and let's face it, most people are very limited in how many pups they can have. When a breeder only has a litter a year, they have to rely, in large part, on what the so called "experts" write. They have to believe. Myself, I tried the ENS in the beginning. Damn If I didn't believe I had some great pups. Took them to the field and, with half the pups, had to wonder what happened. They were not so great. I eventually moved them outside and quit whelping them indoors. This was another eye opener because 1/3 of those great pups I had in the house were actually feral without the constant handling from day one. Now it began to dawn on me why this was being done. After the 100's of years that dogs have been considered domesticated animals, they shouldn't be feral. If this was normal, they should all have been feral. They were not. There were solid dogs and culls. I realized about then that I had to look at them without the environmental influences. That meant evaluating them right after they started coming out of the whelping box. I used to keep a log of this stuff but quit after I realized that weak was weak and all the intervention was doing was making them look like something they were not. 

I am not trying to convince anyone that they should raise pups this way because it is truly unsettling to find a good portion of their one litter a year turning out feral. With most mindsets today, the logical conclusion will be that ENS really does work and it is a god send. They will never come to the realization that have the pups they are producing are crappers and definitely need all the help they can get. That will never happen. Besides, they can never change what they are getting by breeding the same two dogs all the time. If you don't believe me, throw the bitch outside and let her raise her own pups for the first 4 weeks. When 1/2 those pups display extreme avoidance will love what ENS does for crappers. That is also when you will see that any solid pups in the litter don't really benefit from it.

I have had 7 litter this year and will breed two to three more shortly. I have enough pups around to know the difference between a crapper and a solid dog. Because of this, I don't have to believe what other "experts" write. I have tried most things over the years and have decided most of the innovative BS is simpley done because it is easier than breeding good solid dogs that don't need it. Use any of todays touted methods for shoring up the crappers.....they will never produce anything like a well bred dog.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Oh, I believe what you say about raising pups outside. My current dog was raised that way and I have always considered her to exhibit more wild type behaviors than your typical dog. 

My question about why it's used wasn't presented to try and understand why a small scale breeder might use it, I was more interested in understanding the perspective from its point of origin. 

I pretty much figured that some of the interest in this was simply a bridge for those individuals incapable of assessing and breeding quality to start with. A friend of mine once announced that she'd be using it on her next litter of DDB pups. I had no idea what to say to that. 

In a different application though, I have considered that it does have merit. But by that I think some keep drawing comparisons to the ultimate working dog some perceive they may get out of such efforts. I really don't mean that when suggesting a perspective of validity. The merit of ENS maybe driven off the sheer volume demands and the necessity to outsource many of these dogs to private individuals in foster programs which probably are not all that capable of doing a great job when raising up these pups to begin with. More specifically the value to some extent isn't so much in what it does with the dog in front of you but rather in what it offers in assisting organizations like the DOD who has a 100 dog requirement per year obligation to meet. Perhaps the need to employ different tactics to help them meet those demands is really what justifies it - that's all I am getting at.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Nicole, I see what your getting at. I am shocked that everyone in these programs believes except that what they see is that "IT DOES' benefit the weaker dogs. Maybe the general thought pattern tells them that if the vast majority (sub par dogs) benefit from ENS, then it must benefit them all. I can't give you a definitive answer as to why.

From my perspective, if I say I am breeding working dogs and can deliver true working quality stock, I simply can't use artificial support methods to make them look good. It will show up eventually.

As far as the DOD, if they use ENS, it would certainly explain the high washout #'s where the rubber meets the road and the stress is applied.

I don't rely on tests and such to evaluate my dogs. I get to see them face to face with game they haven't got a chance of beating. It is the real deal, they cur or they don't. If they don't, then I can see if they take the fight to the game or tend to play it safe. It is a simple case of they can do the job or they can't. Even not being a trainer, I know that a great dog doesn't have all this baggage that people are always dealing with. 

It isn't any different with bird hunters. I have seen them spend 9 years getting a dog to where he looks good. The dog died two months later....but he looked darn good after 9 years. A really good dog would have been to that point in 3 years at the most. What do you think this guy did when his dog died? He bought a dog that was suited for water retrieving. He got a chessie. You see, in his mind, it wasn't that his particular showbred airedale was lacking, he decided it was the breed. You see this all the time reading posts here. GSD's are the best, Mals are the best. When it comes to these proven breeds, it isn't the breed....it is the dog that is being worked....probably raised using ENS so he would look good at least till the pressure was on....then it will be passed off as a training issue.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> From my perspective, if I say I am breeding working dogs and can deliver true working quality stock, I simply can't use artificial support methods to make them look good. It will show up eventually.
> 
> As far as the DOD, if they use ENS, it would certainly explain the high washout #'s where the rubber meets the road and the stress is applied.
> 
> I don't rely on tests and such to evaluate my dogs. I get to see them face to face with game they haven't got a chance of beating. It is the real deal, they cur or they don't. If they don't, then I can see if they take the fight to the game or tend to play it safe. It is a simple case of they can do the job or they can't. Even not being a trainer, I know that a great dog doesn't have all this baggage that people are always dealing with.


Right, and I can't help but look at some of these dog sports as one of the sources of "artificial means". But anyway, the DoD does does indeed utilize the Biosensor program and admits that it only has about a 30% acceptance rate. I obviously cannot speak for why that might be. 

On your last point I agree completely as well. I'm really not a fan of dog sports but I do like to see what becomes of a dog under relatively stressful situations and I haven't a whole lot of interest in knowing how much my personal influence can play a role in the response. This is not to say I don't have an appreciation for sports, working dogs, teams, training, etc. I most certainly do, but that's not where it's at for me in terms of how I identify a good dog.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: That's because it's coming from you, Jiff. What with all the neck snapping, personally held closet monsters that you incorporate into straining out the shitters it's no wonder that people hone into those kind of statements made by you,

Ok then, how many litters have you raised using ENS ??


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: 
On your last point I agree completely as well. I'm really not a fan of dog sports but I do like to see what becomes of a dog under relatively stressful situations and I haven't a whole lot of interest in knowing how much my personal influence can play a role in the response. This is not to say I don't have an appreciation for sports, working dogs, teams, training, etc. I most certainly do, but that's not where it's at for me in terms of how I identify a good dog.

THis is where dogs are tested to see if they are worth breeding. Police dogs are bred here and there but not nearly enough, and so there does seem to be some debate about the worth of sport, but usually it is from those that have not done well in sport. Most police dogs are not under the type of control needed for sport, and that is where a lot of dogs wash out either they stop biting, or they step up and bite regardless, either way they are not doing well, but the difference between the two makes a difference in breeding.

Most people out there want a dog that looks like a working dog, but is not a working dog. They prefer the facade.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Ok then, how many litters have you raised using ENS ??


Was that a rhetorical question? If not, then I will answer it. None. I'm really not all that interested in breeding dogs. If my involvement in this discussion gave you an impression otherwise I assure you I haven't any experience with ENS - only interest in it.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Sorry Don, I hadn't read all your posts and like an idiot said the same thing that you did.

I think that the tight breeding that you do makes a big difference in what you are able to see at 4 weeks as well. People that have litters that are not bred so tight are basically outcrossing and I am sure that also makes a difference in what they are seeing.

One or two out of a litter is also the accepted norm now. The better breeders are the breeders that have more than that.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Nicole, you've stated a couple times that the military breeding program still actively performs ENS, but according to The Dog and its Genome (2006), that program was terminated.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

LAFB "Puppy Program" still to this day uses Bio Sensor Training as part of their program. They use it in their breeding program, of which is only to faciliate and augment the number of working dogs they buy annually as well as provide historical and documented data on breeding itself. 

I have seen some of the dogs being bred and have my own opinion on why they are being bred, however the program itself is at best proving 35% of working dogs to the DoD, be it Single Purpose Detector dogs, SSD, or Dual Purpose. Some become training aids as well.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

"Some become training aids as well."

I'm assuming that means _in the training of it's handlers?_


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## Chip Blasiole (Jun 7, 2006)

Seems like this discussion has two separate issues being discussed. The exposure to environmental stessors beginning at a very early age, such as with the superdog protocol, along with other early environmental challenges might "cover up" nerve issues, but there is also the likelihood that such approaches can contribute to brain development that might not occur without these challenges occuring before certain windows for critical periods are closed. The same could be said about using food to shape obedience behaviors very early on. Doing so allows the dog to learn how to learn about obedience, which is not natural for dogs. It is probably somewhat analogous to some of these children who have been kept in impoverished environments and never catch up to their peers, even thought their innate capacity was average or above. Another example would be young children being able to learn a second language much easier at an early age as opposed to learning a new language in their teens. These environmental challenges also have value in building the relationship between the handler and the dog, resulting in a working relationship that might not develop to the same degree without the handler/dog team working through the challenges. The other side of the coin is that starting bitework too early can lay a different foundation than one where the dog has some maturity before being introduced to bitework, so that the bitework can be presented with a higher level of intensity, eliciting a stronger response from the more mature dog. If the handler is fairly green, he will want to start early to gain more experience and a knowledge base. A more experienced handler who starts with a pup is much more likely to get his hands on a solid prospect, test out the dog's natural levels of prey drive, strikes, grip, entries, forwardness, etc. with a little bit of tug work with the pup. Then he can focus on other aspects of the training while waiting for the dog to mature, occasionally checking out the dog with a few short bites every few months to make sure the dog isn't developing issues with maturity. But most people want to do as much bite work early on with pups due to the high level of refinement needed in sport bitework as well as the fun they experience watching their pups progress in bitework. Also, if you don't have access to skilled helpers, you will likely need more/early bitework sessions to read the dog accurately, lay the foundation correctly, and problem solve.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Chip, everthing you mentioned is learned behaviors. No one here is saying let the dog sit and ignore it. Of course it has to be worked at a certain point. Basically what is being said, on my part anyway, is that yes, ENS is a great tool for the weaker dogs to at least get them to a functional level....it simply does not make them solid dogs. For most people, using ENS actually clouds what a person thinks he is seeing. This is about the inherent qualites of the pup.....has not anything to do with learned behavior.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

*Two cents worth on ENS*



Don Turnipseed said:


> Chip, everthing you mentioned is learned behaviors. No one here is saying let the dog sit and ignore it. Of course it has to be worked at a certain point. Basically what is being said, on my part anyway, is that yes, ENS is a great tool for the weaker dogs to at least get them to a functional level....it simply does not make them solid dogs. For most people, using ENS actually clouds what a person thinks he is seeing. This is about the inherent qualites of the pup.....has not anything to do with learned behavior.


Don,

I kind of agree on ENS helping a weaker dog, BUT I don't think it hurts the stronger dogs in any way so why not just do it with all puppies? I also think puppy testing is way over rated. I've watched too many litters where the red collar puppy is the alpha one week and the blue collar puppy the next etc. I've also seen a lot of trainers test their puppy every week just looking for a weakness so they can move on to the next prospect. They wind up never finding the perfect dog and never trial or title. Lots of times the puppy they've given up on, winds up doing fine with another trainer. Sometimes even wind up being a podium dog. I pick puppies by finding a litter I like and then finding one that
I feel a bond with. I'd rather train and title my companion/pet then be on the podium with a dog that doesn't care who's on the other end of the leash


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

*Re: Two cents worth on ENS*

[Barriano;14418


Thomas 9 said:


> Don,
> 
> I kind of agree on ENS helping a weaker dog, BUT I don't think it hurts the stronger dogs in any way so why not just do it with all puppies?


ENS should be used with all pet dogs. ENS is an enabler when it comes to working dogs IMO. It enables you to unload pet quality dogs as working dogs simply by making them look like more dog than they really are. In the long run, it is deteriorating the quality of the dogs being bred. Don't really have to breed a quality dog if you can make them look like they are.


[Barriano;14418


Thomas 9 said:


> I also think puppy testing is way over rated. I've watched too many litters where the red collar puppy is the alpha one week and the blue collar puppy the next etc. I've also seen a lot of trainers test their puppy every week just looking for a weakness so they can move on to the next prospect. They wind up never finding the perfect dog and never trial or title.


Thomas, even though someone manages to pick the best pup in the litter, it doesn't mean that pup can title or reach podium level. Just means that it was the best of, let's say, the three males in the litter. Three is not a large cross section. Maybe none were top level dogs. Doesn't make much difference if you did pick the best one many times. Picking the best isn't hard if they haven't been subjected any influences by people. I can double check male picks because I pick the best at 4 weeks. This is a trade secret and I am going to tell you because most people can't do it anyway. If I bring all the pups up on the deck at 10 weeks and go to another yard and bring in a male pup about 4 mo. old and put them together, the older pup will show me which are the top picks. The older pups age makes him the biggest and most dominate and he will start tormenting the top male/ female. Males have to dominate and they dominate the highest ranking one there. If you want to know which are the weakest, watch which ones mom is always picking on. It is her job to get them ready to cope on their own. If you sell the top pup, bring the older pup back up and he will show you which is the next in line. Works a lot better than a lot of hap hazard guessing. When people start getting too technical, things go south pretty fast. We are dealing with dogs and, in their natuaral state(without trying to improve them artificially) they will act like dogs. They will pick the top dog better than you will. The first thing to remember is, just because it is the top dog in a given litter, doesn't mean it is the right dog for what you want.

[Barriano;14418


Thomas 9 said:


> Lots of times the puppy they've given up on, winds up doing fine with another trainer. Sometimes even wind up being a podium dog. I pick puppies by finding a litter I like and then finding one that
> I feel a bond with. I'd rather train and title my companion/pet then be on the podium with a dog that doesn't care who's on the other end of the leash


Well, this is what most people do. They want a companion dog first....and that is what they end up with. A good working dog has a working ethic. When he is working, he is all business, but, he has the ability to leave his work at the job. This is much easier for a real top level dog to do simply because the work itself is not totally stressing them out all the time. When a dog is not really cut out for a job and you keep pushing it down their throat, they won't have fun and they can't leave it on the field.....or in the woods.


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## Chip Blasiole (Jun 7, 2006)

Don,
I would argue that, while most of my comments involve learning, there are also physiological/structural changes that might occur in the brain that wouldn't otherwise develop if the pup wasn't exposed to certain challenges/stressors without planful imprinting. If it were solely learning, the window on the critical periods wouldn't shut.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Don,
> I would argue that, while most of my comments involve learning, there are also physiological/structural changes that might occur in the brain that wouldn't otherwise develop if the pup wasn't exposed to certain challenges/stressors without planful imprinting. If it were solely learning, the window on the critical periods wouldn't shut.


Chip, ENS is is a carbon copy of what takes place in the whelping box 24/7. The pups are getting the same stressors of temp change, being turned upside down, the whole deal is there. Actually, watching pups in a whelping box is probably what gave rise to ENS. The only difference is it conditions the pups to being held by people.....that is conditioning not socializing......but socializing sounds better.Realistically, while I say I don't use ENS, the pups still get it 24/7 in their natural environment ....I am just not taking credit for something that happens naturally. Bottom line, they get their stressors. You think pups don't get stressors in a whelping box fighting for a teet that still has milk? There is enough stress there that the weak don't survive. How much do you think we should throw at newborns.


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## Sanda Stankovic (Jan 10, 2009)

People that dont know about what "epigenetic changes" are and how the environment influences genes and their expression might find it interesting to google it. There is no such thing as 'no interferance' and 'genetics in its pure form'. 

Whatever we do or dont do, from how we feed the females to how we raise pups DOES have a huge impact on how and if those genes that are in their DNA will be expressed. You dont do anything to them, you dont provide environmentally rich environment, you are still influencing your dogs as much as you are when you do provide rich environment. If the animals in the wild receive their 'conditioning' from when they are born, why is it so bad to prepare dogs for the life they will have and things they will encounter from early on. After all, evolution has provided this window of opportunity for a reason.


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## Sanda Stankovic (Jan 10, 2009)

To elaborate: what if their ability to respond to the environment that we provide is as important and perhaps indicative of how they will learn later in life. We think we are assisting the weak ones. What if we are selecting the more adaptable ones? And is that relevant. 

I dont know much about different types of animal behavior but apparently there is a difference between the degree behaviors are succeptable to environmental conditioning... 

I think this is pretty basic but interesting: 

http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/research/p...ces/ijcai-booklet/tutorial-notes-chappell.pdf


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## Sanda Stankovic (Jan 10, 2009)

OK last thing: 

-Stimuli in early life switch on genetic pathways that differentiate neuron function – sensitive period

In that context, it means that how genes will be expressed depends on the environment one is in. So, you can have great genetic potential, but deprive it of stimuli that will bring it out means that you will really disadvantage the animal, possibly preventing its true genetics to show... 


http://siteresources.worldbank.org/INTECD/Resources/FraserEDIseminarDec1.ppt.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

How many litters have you produced ?? How long have you been a breeder? WHat kind of dogs are you breeding ?? I am always curious about this, as there is no way of proving that it works or doesn't work really. This is something that a lot of your PhD students look for. LOL


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Sanda Stankovic said:


> Whatever we do or dont do, from how we feed the females to how we raise pups DOES have a huge impact on how and if those genes that are in their DNA will be expressed. You dont do anything to them, you dont provide environmentally rich environment, you are still influencing your dogs as much as you are when you do provide rich environment.


Who said anything about not providing a good environment????? Mom is raising them until they are ready to come out into their new world. She takes care of the ENS. If you want to see some truly POS dogs, take them away from mom and raise them from day one. When you see the results you may understand why these innovative thinkers have not reccommended removing mom from the whole equation.




Sanda Stankovic said:


> If the animals in the wild receive their 'conditioning' from when they are born, why is it so bad to prepare dogs for the life they will have and things they will encounter from early on.


As has been said several times. sit by a whelping box. The pups are getting more ENS than you can give....24/7.



Sanda Stankovic said:


> After all, evolution has provided this window of opportunity for a reason.


What window of opportunity???? Sounds like feel good BS. Like I said, if you think you can improve on raising pups, take them away from mom and hand raise them from day one....you won't do it a second time. Be a great learning experience for people.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Don, I agree with alot you say, however I have a 9 month old male I bottle fed from 3 days old as the mom had an EMER C-Section and he is super. No fear of anything, very outgoing and confident, super social......I provided as much stimuli as possible and tried to give him what the mom couldn't/wouldn't. Would I do it again, HELL NO, its too much, I much rather have 10-15 pups then just one lone survivor being bottle fed and cared for. I don't particular see any difference with him except maybe some dominance issues, however who knows if that is from that or not. He is a fantastic worker and great work ethic. 

What if I didn't provide the stimuli or help him along? What if he came out naturally and mom took care of him? What if there was a full litter of pups?

These are things we will never no, only assumptions and theories based on experiences, thus we all have different opinions and views on it. 

I am very open minded and understand what people say, but in this case, I wanted and owed it to the pup to give him a jumpstart in life since mom couldn't, and I am glad I did in this case.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

So he would have been a flaming piece of shit if you hadn't done all those things right ?? I mean, there is no way he would have been what you are seeing right now if it were not for your intervention, right ?

THis is where the bullshit gets stuffed. A single is almost always more confident as he is the only one. Maybe if you were actually a breeder, you would know this. HA HA.

Just because you spent a million hours with a pup doesn't mean he would have been less if you had spent 400,000 hours with him. I am not saying that people shouldn't spend time with their pups, but if you HAVE to do this, then what do you really have but a propped up shitter ??

AND, if this was so ****ing amazing a process, then why are we not producing the super dogs promised ?? AND if it worked so well, and was such an amazing process, then why is the military still buying dogs from overseas ?? AND if it were so amazing, then why are most of the military dogs just barely above junk ??

I am NOT STUPID. I am not a first time dog owner, and I just don't get the rabid dog resistance to the fact that this is bullshit. LOL


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

LOL, for one thing, he is my personal dog and who knows if he would of been a POS or if he IS NOW along your standards. And no, I am not a breeder and am familiar with singletons. I have bred many many litters of sled dogs back in my time, so am familair with breeding, however am not a breeder. 

I am not saying one thing or another, but agree with some of your thought process, but like you I say prove it!

The military (According to Lackland anyway) dogs for the most part ARE A JOKE! Personnel down there have been there for years without any fresh meat, and when they do get personnel that want to mix things up, they for the most part are shut down. They do buy quite a bit of dogs in the states, more than most think....why because they are cheaper!!! They have a price cap on dogs that they cannot go over period end of story, no negotioating unless of course its for less of what they can pay. That being said, most vendors already know the price cap and when they know they are coming to look at dogs, they bring out the terds! It's sad, but thats the way it is and anyone to tell you otherwise is just lying to themsleves and obvioulsy doesn't know squat!


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Jody, no two dogs are the same. Also, most pups are raised in the house so there is a lot of influence exerted in the final product. I do tend to forget as I am writing that dogs are raised in the house today so you will see something vastly different than what I see.
I have a dog that is in the kitchen barking right now. This dog was a runt and I brought it in and raised it in the house as a tiny pup. Can't stand her now. She is spoiled and it is very difficult to get her to understand that no means no. Most people would love her. No means nothng to her other than she does understand what it means. What I may see that you and others probably won't is that pups raised solely by the parents listen 10 times better naturally. I can tell an 8 week old pup no and they immediately stop what they are doing if they are parent raised. The parents quickly enforce the growl if it is ignored. The pups grow up knowing there is limits they have to stay within. My pups will bloody you up in a heart beat but to bring the biting to a screeching halt all I do is growl in their ear. They immediately stop biting and start licking the same spot. Mom and dad raised the pups knowing there are limits and will make them cry if they don't listen. They are so easy to handle compared to that little bitch that is still barking in my kitchen. Every one I have hand raised over the years has been like her.

Actually, I have placed dogs with professional trainers and every trainer has said they were so easy to work with compared to the dogs they normally work with. Pups turn out just like kids where "no" is not reinforced.....and they are a pain in the ass. People will never replace mom and dad in the dog world for this very reason. Mom and dad don't give a rip about new wave thinking.....their pups misbehave and they will get rolled in the dirt. The results speak for themselves. Trainers today have to be much better trainers simply because people have improved on puppy rearing so much. There is an old saying that was meant for the dog world. "IF IT AIN'T BROKE, FIX IT UNTIL IT IS".


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

A 30% success rate in the military breeding program should be enough that we can all agree _it doesn't work._ Also, there's plenty enough great dogs out there that can't reproduce themselves into their offspring. By utilizing enhancing methods that transform a dogs potential, identifying solid producers then becomes a difficult issue.



> In general, a *critical period* is a limited time in which an event can occur, usually to result in some kind of transformation. A "critical period" in developmental psychology and developmental biology is a time in the early stages of an organism's life during which it displays a heightened sensitivity to certain environmental stimuli, and develops in particular ways due to experiences at this time. If the organism does not receive the appropriate stimulus during this "critical period", it may be difficult, ultimately less successful, or even impossible, to develop some functions later in life.
> --------------------------------
> The evidence for such a period is limited, and support stems largely from theoretical arguments and analogies to other critical periods in biology such as visual development, but nonetheless is widely accepted. The nature of this phenomenon, however, has been one of the most fiercely debated issues in psycholinguistics and cognitive science in general for decades. Some writers have suggested a "sensitive" or "optimal" period rather than a critical one; others dispute the causes (physical maturation, cognitive factors). The duration of the period also varies greatly in different accounts.
> ~Wikipedia


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

That is SO right on Daryl. How the heck are you supposed to prove this shit ?? It is impossible. LOL

I would think that the crappy percentages of pups that work in a litter would be enough for people to see that they are ****ed up when it comes to breeding, but the overwhelming response that this is the way.....with NO proof or experience to back it up is rediculous. ****ing sheep, ****ing followers can't think for themselves. Pussies. LOL

You have till 4 months of age to do all this shit. I don't get WHY people just follow along blindly accepting that two that work out of a litter of 6 is ok, and then try and blame most of it on the people they sell the dog to ??

I know that it happens, look at Drako, and thank God that he got himself a job. However, I do not think this is the majority.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

I always had a belief that in every litter there will be a natural superstar, two shitters and the rest mediocre/good dogs that with good training will come out to be something....


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

The problem with that Jody ,is that it depends on the quality of the litter as a whole. A pup may be a superstar in it's particular litter but may be a shitter in the larger scheme of things. Thus, we have competitions to determine the best of the best.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

After I clicked post, I thought that immediately!


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

That's about what the majority are breeding, an even distribution of averages, from stattered random outcrossing. Then, when the pups seem to be doing OK from the ENS and other measures, it somehow justifies all the anti-inbreeding sentiment.

A selection of stronger producers, who also are set in outward "type" for a generation or two (thereby strengthening genotype), are going to produce dramatically better. Who wouldn't want less overall shitters in their breed?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Very interesting graphs Daryl. Never seen it put that way where it is simple enough for anyone to see. It is really hard to tell people that have believed in things like ENS is good or inbreeding is bad that it just isn't true in all cases.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Inbreeding IS bad when you have genetic time bombs you are breeding. LOL

I wonder what sort of explosions will occur here in a month or so ?? LOL


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Instead of argueing the case in favor of ENS and all the wonders it does, all anyone has to do is pull a chair up to a whelping box and they will see ENS at it's finest.....without touching a single pup. The conclusion one would have to draw once they realize they get ENS naturally, is that what is actually benefiting the pups is simply the handling....or conditioning. If that is the conclusion, I would think they would have to wonder why there is no noticeable benefit to the confident pups.....but no one will see that because they do them all.


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## Sanda Stankovic (Jan 10, 2009)

But you are assuming the mother and her handling provides all the necessary or sufficient stimulation in the wild. If that is the case, its either that ENS is totally irrelevant and has no effect or that ENS is providing additional stuff that mother doesn't. In the wild you have everything from changes in temperatures, smells, textures to differences in the food mother is likely to eat from day to day (you know, different to a single brand of kibble), etc., etc... 



> How the heck are you supposed to prove this shit ?? It is impossible. LOL


Well the theory that the environment influences development has been proven in a lot of animal models, the most conclusive probably being mice as you can account for all of the variables, from genetics to temperature to exposure to light... Plenty of stuff out there if one can be bothered going through it. Take a bunch of mice, keep one lot in the plain cage, give the other lot plenty of stimulation. Now change the time when you introduce environmental stimulation to the second lot. You can not only see if the stimulation has an effect, but you can also pinpoint the time in development when that environment has the greatest effect on them. 


The 'critical period' simply means, the most receptive period to subtle environmental influences. Part of the theory about the critical period and conditioning suggests that it is a necessary survival aspect as it provides animals with what is 'normal' and harmless versus what they should perceive as a threat. Everything they experience while within that period they will accept as normal. Everything that they dont, they will be more wary of. 

Example in humans as to how receptive and impressionable a young brain is. It is known that kids learn languages much quicker than adults. Get a kid to learn a new language versus someone at 15-16 years of age, the kid will pick it up faster and even the speech pattern and the accent will be lost. 





> If that is the conclusion, I would think they would have to wonder why there is no noticeable benefit to the confident pups.....but no one will see that because they do them all.


Take humans as an example. Take two 4-5 year olds, one really talented at tennis, one really bad. Train them both for 6 months and then test them. You are not likely to see huge differences at this time, both can hit a ball, both can move around, etc...... However, train them both for 10 years, and then, once developed test them, and the difference will be more than obvious. What they experience while their brain is developing will affect how they can use their genetic potential. That is why most of today's elite athletes started off when they were really young. At the same time, 90% of those that started a sport at 4 and had over eager parents will not be able to play on the same level.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

_"they get ENS naturally"_

Totally. They knead at the mothers belly and get plenty of stimulation with her belly hair between their toes, they roll all over each other (head up, head down, and into the supine position) while struggling to hang onto a teat, they get the thermal stimulation of the wet towel effect while wading through a puddle of pee... what else is there?

Five benefits have been observed in canines that were exposed to the Bio Sensor stimulation exercises. The benefits noted were: 
1. Improved cardio performance 
2. Stronger heartbeats. 
3. Stronger adrenal glands 
4. More tolerance to stress 
5. Greater resistance to disease 

WTF is a stronger adrenal gland? Isn't adrenal activation a _response to stress?!_ So which is it? Greater responsiveness to stress, or tolerance to stress...

Published con-artistry, certainly nothing to be proud of.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I don't think anyone is arguing that there are periods of optimal conditioning or neurological structuring of the brain's activities, the "peaks" of which are nearly always prior to an organism's full sexual maturity. Actual critical periods, with windows that "close" are only proven to be present in physiological development, such as in visual cortex development, and evidence shows in _some aspects,_ but not all, in the learning in language.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Daryl, don't you just wonder why they left the butt cleaning out of the ENS procedure. That stimulates them also.....and also covers most positions again. I have seen really gung ho moms flip the pups end over end cleaning them up. Guess maybe someone figured that much stimulation may be found a bit "distasteful".


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## Sanda Stankovic (Jan 10, 2009)

"Environmental manipulation early in life can alter the development of the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal (HPA) axis by mechanisms that are still unclear. The aim of the present work was to study the acute effects of postnatal touch stimulation, in an attempt to understand the mechanism by which touch stimulation early in life alters the HPA response to stress in adult animals. Rat pups were gently brushed for 15 min daily during the 1st postnatal week. Serum corticosterone levels were determined by radioimmunoassays, while glucocorticoid receptor (GR) gene expression was assayed by semiquantitative reverse transcriptase-polymerase chain reaction. Touch stimulation induced a significant decrease (30-36%) in serum corticosteroid secretion during the 1st and 2nd postnatal day as compared to the unstimulated group. In contrast, GR gene expression in the touch stimulation group was significantly increased in several brain areas such as the hippocampus (19-21%), frontal cortex (26-34%) and midbrain (15-24%). The results thus indicate that neonatal touch stimulation causes acute hormone- secretion and gene-expression changes within the period of stimulation. These changes may be the underlying cause for the permanent changes that have been observed in adult animals touch-stimulated as neonates."

http://content.karger.com/produktedb/produkte.asp?typ=fulltext&file=DNE2003025001026


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Sanda, considering the way you write, which is very well, I have to ask, are you in a scientific fields, a breeder, or are you translating this from the sites you put up?


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## Sanda Stankovic (Jan 10, 2009)

Well this last quote is copied from a scientific study. In general, lets say that I have read enough to at least appreciate that the complexity of what we are trying to talk about here is enormous. Everything affects something else further down the line. To actually make all the connections that would explain the outcomes they claim to see and back it up with scientific facts would be a very complex flow chart indeed. Have I seen a litter of pups grow up? Yes. Have I experimented on 1000s of pups myself? No...


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

As I mentioned previously, in some old dusty thread on this board, I've conducted these experiments, with control groups, and my results in terms of confidence, higher awareness, and better working drives contradict the reported status quo. Probably because people who say they've done it _actually don't,_ or don't have a clue as to how to evaluate a pup.

I've had litters from the _exact same breeding pair_ turn out very noticeably better than their previous litter that was ENS'd. Perhaps it was the improved maternal diet that made the difference, instead.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Sanda Stankovic said:


> Well this last quote is copied from a scientific study. In general, lets say that I have read enough to at least appreciate that the complexity of what we are trying to talk about here is enormous. Everything affects something else further down the line. To actually make all the connections that would explain the outcomes they claim to see and back it up with scientific facts would be a very complex flow chart indeed. Have I seen a litter of pups grow up? Yes. Have I experimented on 1000s of pups myself? No...


Sanda, scientific studies are what they are. Case in point....there has never been a study involvinmg the actual inbreeding of dogs for generations. They used mice also and determined that inbreeding is taboo, yet, they have a 1000 generations of of full bro/sister crosses that are as close to clones as they can be through natural breeding....all as healthy or healthier than the originals. Charles River Co. breeds most of the mice for labs. Every cross has a specific number. They have been reproducing these same crosses for decades. When I confronted the scientists about this, they simply say it is not applicable. But it is very applicable.

Seems this type of science is everything but exact. Everyone claims to have proved something yet they cannot prove it. 

I am not saying there is not benefit for some of the pups. I am simply saying the benefits people believe are being derived from ESN are simply not what they are believed to be. Once again, all this ENS stuff will take place regardless. I think you brought up a for instance of the mother lacking good skills. I suppose an exception can always be found, but, in a case such as you brought up, the bitch is not breed material and technically, the pups should be disposed of.....not given ENS. The likely hood the offspring will not have good parenting skills is to high. What we are talking about is breeding good pups, not making them merely look good.

Obviously, since the pups get ENS in the whelping box, what is actually benefiting the less confident or marginal pups is the handling....or conditioning. The real question is really at what age is it a must to handle the less confident to see beneficial results. When the eyes open at 14 days. At three weeks. I can tell you that the three week mark benfits the less confident more than waiting till four weeks, but, it also makes evaluating them a bit more iffy. Two weeks may even be better. Possibly right before the eyes open would be ideal to salvage the, what would normally be 80% of the litter today. The right time can be determine by the litter owner because all litters are not the same. The earlier it has to be started, the poorer the litters being produced are. I really don't see a lot of introduction to new things as being relevant until they are coming out of the whelping box on their own.


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## Sanda Stankovic (Jan 10, 2009)

> Sanda, scientific studies are what they are. Case in point....there has never been a study involvinmg the actual inbreeding of dogs for generations. They used mice also and determined that inbreeding is taboo, yet, they have a 1000 generations of of full bro/sister crosses that are as close to clones as they can be through natural breeding....all as healthy or healthier than the originals. Charles River Co. breeds most of the mice for labs. Every cross has a specific number. They have been reproducing these same crosses for decades. When I confronted the scientists about this, they simply say it is not applicable. But it is very applicable.


LOL dont get me started on inbreeding.... Lab mice are far from what one would consider able to survive in the wild. Again, reading up on the topic may provide an insight. Why dont you try breeding mother to son yourself, see how far you can get. Nothing is stopping breeders from doing it, how come nobody does it? BTW it is very simple: in 10 generations of breeding mothers to sons (or daughters to fathers, whatever) you will end up with dogs that are 99% inbred. 



> Seems this type of science is everything but exact. Everyone claims to have proved something yet they cannot prove it.


Well, its more exact than a personal subjective opinion... What do you mean they cant prove it? Study I just posted has proven that handing causes changes in blood hormone levels. That is a fact. How they apply it in the context of development is the interpretation. That is why you need to read quite a few studies until you have collected enough pieces of the puzzle to give you a clearer picture of how things come together. Science might even be harder than breeding good dogs lol.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

I had an accidental breeding of mother to son many years ago and had nice pups...


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: LOL dont get me started on inbreeding.... Lab mice are far from what one would consider able to survive in the wild.

Why would anyone give a **** if their dog could survive in the wild ?? Why would you breed for a dog that had no need of your existence ???? How is that gonna get us Mondio champs ???


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Go ahead get started on inbreeding, I am listening...


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Well best example I have is you. Look how you turned out. : ) HA HA


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I cannot imagine a breeder just inbreeding to inbreed. You have a goal, and are trying to get to the point where you are consistantly producing pups of damn near equal quality.

However, I think that you would have some really healthy pups that way. I think that the Dobermann people should consider doing this.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Come on, thats suppose to be between us LOL 

I mentioned earlier I had an accidental breeding of mother to son back in the 80's, pups turned out great and worked well for what I wanted. That was accidental, I later bred a brother and sister that where awesome wheel dogs and had bone and muscle structure that I just had to have, so I tried it. I got three pups, one died from the mother stepping on it and the other two, totally different than parents and totally different from one another....however very healthy. I always wondered about that.....


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

First off, there are varying intensities of inbreeding. Most consider 1/2 sibs, grandparent to grandpup as inbreeding also. ....just less intense. I have done numerous mother/son, father daughter crosses. I have a full bro/sis cross here right now. Apparently it is done more than Sanda realizes. I just shipped an 11th gen bred female to Hawaii to beat the quarantine. Those pups will be 12 generations of tight linebreeding. I might have to bring one of those pups back. It would be interesting to see what Sanda has to say about the subject as I am always open to learning from those that actually have hands on experience.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

LOL!! Don, most people think of humans or rats when inbreeding is done, and when they see a great dog, whether it be a worker or in the show ring, they have no clue what they are looking at. They assume it would have four ears and 3 eyes!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I raised rats for the herpes I had, and there was no difference in the inbred rats, as I started with two, and didn't buy any, just let them breed over and over with whatever was in the cage. Never saw three eyed rats, and I would bet money that all of them would survive in the wild.

Just because you READ a study does not mean it is always that way. Research is rather limited, and if you ask the researcher, they will tell you the flaws as well. They are often paid to do work which is flawed.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

So....how are the herpes now?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I haven't had an outbreak of herpes in years. I was gonna keep this turtle I found the other day, but it was too hard.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Great, I haven't had the outbreak in months....hmmmm, you still got some of those rats?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Sanda Stankovic said:


> LOL dont get me started on inbreeding.... Lab mice are far from what one would consider able to survive in the wild. Again, reading up on the topic may provide an insight. Why dont you try breeding mother to son yourself, see how far you can get. Nothing is stopping breeders from doing it, how come nobody does it? BTW it is very simple: in 10 generations of breeding mothers to sons (or daughters to fathers, whatever) you will end up with dogs that are 99% inbred.


Are you saying you have opinions about inbreeding, experience, or quotes from more studies, Sanda 



Sanda Stankovic said:


> Well, its more exact than a personal subjective opinion... What do you mean they cant prove it? Study I just posted has proven that handing causes changes in blood hormone levels. That is a fact. How they apply it in the context of development is the interpretation. That is why you need to read quite a few studies until you have collected enough pieces of the puzzle to give you a clearer picture of how things come together. Science might even be harder than breeding good dogs lol.


I believe at the moment there are 3 experienced subjective opinions that are discrediting the value of people applying ENS since it will be done anyway. I do see from the quote, now that you explained what it is saying for me at least, that it is the handling itself that has an effect.

Maybe I should read more studies. Maybe you should get more practicle, hands on experience so you can say this is what I have actually seen instead of putting links to what you have read.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Sandra 

You ask why noone do inbreding in 10 Generation on father to daugther, its not hard. You get Homozygota throu Inbreeding = You make the dogs more and more alike and you know more ore less what you get. But you make that big steps forward when you outcross thro Hetrozygota. 

No one knowing what they do in dog breeding wuld inbreed to infinety, And also peopel knowing what they do will outcross infinety. You nead bot to make good dogs and know what you will get out.


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## Sanda Stankovic (Jan 10, 2009)

> Are you saying you have opinions about inbreeding, experience, or quotes from more studies, Sanda


 Laboratory mice can not survive outside of lab most probably. That is because of the degree of inbreeding. And this one is all mine... 





> I believe at the moment there are 3 experienced subjective opinions that are discrediting the value of people applying ENS since it will be done anyway. I do see from the quote, now that you explained what it is saying for me at least, that it is the handling itself that has an effect.
> 
> Maybe I should read more studies. Maybe you should get more practicle, hands on experience so you can say this is what I have actually seen instead of putting links to what you have read.


That would be fine, and I respect what people think they see, but the reason I put more value on what science has found is: they have genetically identical individuals they do experiments on, you dont. They have temperature, light, bedding, food controlled environment, you most likely dont. And finally, they are looking for specific details (increase in blood hormones, for example) you are not, which means that you are more likely to overlook details that might in the long run make more difference. 

By no means am I saying that there is a 100% certainty that ENS has an effect on dogs in all situations, not at all. But, is there enough data to suggest that it can, I think yes. 



> First off, there are varying intensities of inbreeding. Most consider 1/2 sibs, grandparent to grandpup as inbreeding also. ....just less intense. I have done numerous mother/son, father daughter crosses. I have a full bro/sis cross here right now. Apparently it is done more than Sanda realizes.


No,of course that one inbreeding is not going to have an effect that I was trying to give an example of. Since you mentioned lab rats/mice and since they are 100% inbred (they are genetically identical within their own strain) why not try it with dogs. So you take mother, breed her to her son. Take the pup from that litter, breed them to their dad. Do that again, and as I said, if inbreeding is all good see how far you get. I doubt you would get past 3 or 4th generation. Then you have to wonder why? What it is about inbreeding that nature would be so against that it would work against inbreeding. That is what science talks about. Unfortunately, nobody knows how much of that effect that you see in 3rd or 4th generation of inbreeding is actually present in 1st or 2nd (again, details of these animals, hormone levels, ability to cope with infections, etc. etc. thinkgs that are not obvious when you look at the dog). A lot of it of course has to do with the starting material.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Ok, so, lets say that you have a dog that has very little genetic problems and you breed as you say. You get inbred depression around the 8th generation, and it is gone two generations later, and you have a dog that lives twice the breed average, no hip dysplasia, no elbow problems, is a little smaller than average, and is about 20 times the dog that a person would need to do anything.

OH DAMN, the crazy guy actually did it. Keep reading. Most of the people I met doing research are just about retarded. Give them a math problem and they are good to go, other than that, clueless. They stay in research because they do not do well with other people. They melt.

You just keep reading about mice, and realize that we don't give two ****s if a white research mouse is gonna make it in the wild. It has nothing at all to do with what we are doing breeding dogs. Some of the healthiest dogs, able to endure unbelievable amounts of abuse is the American pitbull terrier. Most of the good game dogs are just about their own uncle.

Until you actually read something that has to do with DOGS and not MICE your arguements are just silly. Blindly following others is stupid. Try fixing that personal problem first, then go out and do your own work and see what the deal is.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

This started as a great thread, then got worse, but now getting better....


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

OK, so I have been looking up and reading the rat/mice studies too - interesting, and I like seeing the "yes, THIS is what happens and it is a real measurable effect" to explain how ENS works. Epigenetics is fascinating. But then, some of those studies also show that a good caring mother has the SAME effect on the pups as the "experimental" human stimulation.

That is what I get out of it.

As far as greater responsiveness vs. tolerance to stress, the way I understan that (in the rat model) is the ENS'd pups (by mother or experimental interference or whatever) actually form more cortisol receptors in the brain and are able to detect and shut off the stress response more quickly, and act more relaxed - which means they would need higher stress to have the same reaction to it as the nervous ones. So there's your higher vs lower thresholds.

On the other hand the studies also suggest that if you overdo the stimulation, you are causing more harm than good by raising pups who are under constant stress. Constant levels of stress hormones also cause mesurable changes, and not for the better.

So I am a scientist. I like seeing how pieces of the puzzle fit.

If stimulation is the only variable. I do wonder what the difference would be between a nervous/stressed mother worrying and obsesssively messing with her pups, and a calm relaxed mother taking care of them. Early stimulation is early stimulation, right?? I am guessing the pups in these litters would not get the same benifits equally. But I don't know. It would be interesting to switch litters half and half with a calm mother and an OCD highstrung one, and see how much is genetic and how much is environmental.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Sanda Stankovic said:


> Laboratory mice can not survive outside of lab most probably. That is because of the degree of inbreeding. And this one is all mine...


Neither can most domestic dogs. So what is your point?



Sanda Stankovic said:


> That would be fine, and I respect what people think they see, but the reason I put more value on what science has found is: they have genetically identical individuals they do experiments on, you dont. They have temperature, light, bedding, food controlled environment, you most likely dont. And finally, they are looking for specific details (increase in blood hormones, for example) you are not, which means that you are more likely to overlook details that might in the long run make more difference.


And I have 12 generations of actual dogs on the ground that some are approaching 50% inbred that they haven't got the 25 years to try and recreate....so they make assumptions. Many of those assumptions are not accurate.



Sanda Stankovic said:


> By no means am I saying that there is a 100% certainty that ENS has an effect on dogs in all situations, not at all. But, is there enough data to suggest that it can, I think yes.


 Think yes all you want Sanda, it happens with or without you. If you never touch the pups they will get ENS....just not from you. If you cannot absorb that one simple thing, why do you think I should put any weight on what you think about what you have read?



Sanda Stankovic said:


> No,of course that one inbreeding is not going to have an effect that I was trying to give an example of. Since you mentioned lab rats/mice and since they are 100% inbred (they are genetically identical within their own strain) why not try it with dogs. So you take mother, breed her to her son. Take the pup from that litter, breed them to their dad. Do that again, and as I said, if inbreeding is all good see how far you get. I doubt you would get past 3 or 4th generation. Then you have to wonder why? What it is about inbreeding that nature would be so against that it would work against inbreeding. That is what science talks about. Unfortunately, nobody knows how much of that effect that you see in 3rd or 4th generation of inbreeding is actually present in 1st or 2nd (again, details of these animals, hormone levels, ability to cope with infections, etc. etc. thinkgs that are not obvious when you look at the dog). A lot of it of course has to do with the starting material.



I mentioned lab mice because that is what they use to study reproduction in dogs. This is what your scientist base their studys on concerning the reproduction(breeding) in dogs. You can't have it both ways here.....but you are giving it your best shot. As far as your example of back breeding parents to offspring, no one would even think of doing breedings to that extreme, but, you have use the most extreme form of inbreeding just to make your point. You have no understanding of this type of breeding I know because I have had conversations with J.Bragg and Helmuth Wachtell. Turns out, in spite of all the papers Helmuth has written, on the subject of inbreeding and assortive breeding ,that are in print, he has never actually seen an inbred depressed pup....much less held one. I have held hundreds.

Sanda, it really is pointless to have the discussion on inbreeding simply because you really know nothing about it and never will until you have done it. Throw the books away because there is to much scientific misinformation in them.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Anna Kasho said:


> OK, so I have been looking up and reading the rat/mice studies too - interesting, and I like seeing the "yes, THIS is what happens and it is a real measurable effect" to explain how ENS works. Epigenetics is fascinating. But then, some of those studies also show that a good caring mother has the SAME effect on the pups as the "experimental" human stimulation.
> 
> That is what I get out of it.
> 
> ...


Anna, sit by a whelping box and watch. Pups get stimualtion while eating and rolling upside down between the other pups and many other ways that have nothing even to do with mom. It is just there.


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## kristin tresidder (Oct 23, 2008)

i can see the correlation between each of the ENS exercises and the stimulation that a pup would get from it's mother/littermates except for the cold, wet rag. am i missing an obvious one here? incidentally, that also seemed to be the most stressful of the exercises when i used ENS.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Daryl Ehret said:


> they get the thermal stimulation of the wet towel effect while wading through a puddle of pee...


...before the mother has cleaned it up, or from the draft of someone entering the room from a cooler outer environment... from the mother slopping water from her dish (if present) in the whelping box. Thermal stimulation is _any change_ in the temperature or moisture of their environment, and it's practically inevitable that there will be significant variation of thermal stimuli _in some fashion_ many times in the first 10-14 days since being whelped.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Sanda, I thought I should clarify my last post. I don't mean to sound abrupt when is say there is no point in discussing inbreeding with you. It just is what it is and if you haven't done a good bit of it first hand, you really don't have a clue about the real ins and outs. You know what you have heard or read. This makes it much more diffficult to discuss than ENS. Besides, I have had this same discussion so many times before. While it may benfit some of the readers, not one discussion has influenced, or even peaked a naysayers opinion.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Her exampel on inbreeding Fater to daughter i 10 Generation is as stupid as we shuld defend inbreding with : Just trye to breed Labs, Schepards, Mastifs, Pitbulls, Greyhounds together and make a Nice Pointing bird dog. Try to start you selection that way and NEVER go tighter than 0 % in 15 gen and use atleast 5 difrent breeds. Try to make a specialise dog that was  

Yes you will have Hetrozygota. But what ellse?


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