# For Decoys ONLY!



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

There was a post about PSA decoys and the topic of canine injuries. I though it would be interesting for the K-9 handlers or owners to hear from us, the ones in the suit or with the sleeve. Here is our chance to inform or to vent on the topic of being a *K-9 Decoy*. This is intended for past, current, or decoys in training. If you have worked a dog very few times in your life, please don't post. Wer're looking for the real deal here...

My post is simple, *leash control*! When asking the handler to become a "post," it is important for the handler NOT to take an extra half step forward. I can count too many times when that has happened and my eyes become dinner plates! Six inches of play can spell big problems for the decoy and for timing. We don't want to get bit and "sorry" really doesn't make the grade as blood is flowing from our body. Understand the training scenario, pay attention, and do the drill as directed. If you don't know, PLEASE ASK FOR MORE INFORMATION!


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## Frank Phillips (Jan 8, 2008)

My favorite thing to "scream" at handlers is "Poles don't walk..." 
also, How many times have you been working a dog and look to the handler to let the dog go and the handler is gazing at their dog with a big smile and loving eyes and paying no attention what so ever to what is going on.....Pay attention to your dog and watch the decoy and stay focused on what "WE" are doing.....You would be pissed at me if I didn't....


Frank


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

Its simple; if you move then I get bit, I don't get why this is so hard to understand??? Not only are you trying to keep YOURSELF safe but if you are working on certain things and the handler inches forward and the dogs gets a dirty bite then they are screwing up the training session and what the decoy is trying to accomplish. They handler does not always understand what you are trying to do even if you explain it, but being a post is the handlers job and they should DO IT. This they should understand, shouldn't they?? Sometimes its better just to tie the dog out on a post and let the handler just stand there beside them. On the flip side I really appreciate the handlers who make a GREAT post. I don't know how many times I am working on something and I tell them to be SURE you do not move, and things get hairy and because the handler did their job I was able to get out of the way and NOT get bit. So cudos to you guys who stand their ground. =D> Keeping the dog safe is VERY important and we do this for the handlers, so please return the favor and keep us safe too. :smile:


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

After posting, I had another thought. Not all dogs are created equal. Why is it that some folks want a *courage test at 75-100 yards* away. The problem is their dog wouldn't and couldn't do any test, muchless a courage test with full bore defense put on it! Then when you try and explain that the dog can't handle it, then get jacked out of shape. As a decoy, my job is to read dogs and transfer the information to the handler for their operational use...

Like the PSA post, we can't treat all dogs the same and it makes no sense to beat up a weak dog to try and prove something. Handlers can't read a protection dog book and then have all the worlds knowledge on the subject. We as decoys can catch dogs for a lifetime and still never know all dog behaviors. Handlers handle and the decoy's job is to pull the best out of the K-9 training team.


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## Andy Larrimore (Jan 8, 2008)

I like the reply "Post don't walk"


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## Alex Corral (Jul 10, 2007)

I've only been decoying since September, but how about waiting til the decoy is ready before you send your dog in for a bite.


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## Bryan Colletti (Feb 16, 2007)

I understand some of your frustrations Howard. Though I typically dont get as annoyed. I understand like a new decoy, new handlers make mistakes and really get a deer in the head lights look about them. They tend to follow the decoy. You run around in prey mode, and the dog is pulling, so naturally a handler tends to think you want him to come with you. My solution is back tying the dog.

I also like to have new handlers mentored from the other more experienced Handlers. I preface each round of decoy work I do with exactly what I expect from the handler, what I plan on doing, and then I might mention possible variables. Most importantly we always go over each and every round as a group. I am not so quick to keep dogs coming and going, with new handlers still learning. 

I love to video tape, then you are really aware of the Texas Two step towards the decoy the handlers dont realize they are doing. Or the lack of praise new handlers often forget to do. I'm always instructive and not critical, there is so much to process as a handler, far more for the human than the dog, if you are a good decoy that is

I remember my Dutch friend getting so mad at me many years when I would pull on the leash as he was trying to allow for a regrip. I was aweful with my timing. I got better because I was shown my mistakes and explained what my mistakes were doing to the dog. 

I also like a calm handler. Sometimes you find a handler getting too jacked and the dog either gets hectic or backs off. 

So for the record I am a pretty forgiving decoy. I have no tolerance for poor equipment or no crate. I dont like loose dogs in cars. I have been bit a few times from old beat up leashes etc.. that break. Had a few dogs escape cars while I was working other dogs.

Oh yeah, bring a damn water or beer for the decoy too

Bryan Colletti


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

All you decoys cry about such small things. Getting bit only hurts for a short time. I know, I'm older and am much wiser than any of you that has posted this cry baby stuff. With age comes wisdom, and slow reflexes. That's why I only work the young puppies now. Don't laugh, I get bit at least once each training session. But the puppies go away feeling as if they have just beat Tyson. 

Be careful guys. ;o)


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Sensai
Master Grasshopper
OH Great Jerry!
Neat to hear the relpies and seeing how similar each is. In the bigger picture Jerry is right, we should only train young puppies, I'm thinking 8 weeks of age. After that let folks learn on their own...#-o 

Any ideas on how to help make new handlers less stressed, anyone? I know you can't put people down for not knowing as we have all been there from time to time.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Any ideas on how to help make new handlers less stressed, anyone? I know you can't put people down for not knowing as we have all been there from time to time.


I know as a handler when I started last July. I was told to back brace the dog and everything like that. But it just has to be reinforced and reinforced. It is easy to get starstruck watching your dog work and creep. I know now what the decoy was doing but being just told to be a post and not move. Now without any other instruction as we went along without any explanation of what the decoy was doing was somewhat confusing especially for a green handler that has only seen high level dogs. That makes it easy to make a mistake and put the decoy in a compromised position if the handler doesn't know what the decoy is going to do next. Communication communication!! 

Another thing is equipment .. 

I've seen smaller handlers with 80+ lb beasts. Who can barely hold the dog when they come on to the field using 1/2" collars that don't fit, with plastic snap closures and there they are straining at the end of 1/4" leash being put into high prey drive!! #-o 

I used a tracking harness with plastic snap closure when I first started at least it had a better chance of surviving the pounding than a elcheapo collar. Looking back though even that was not a 100% safe proposition for the decoy. Plus I was using a 30 foot tracking line that got all tied up around my feet so I could trip over it when I ran the dog after she won the tug. 

Clubs/decoys .. Lend those green handlers a proper agitation harness and a proper 10 ft long at least 3/4" wide agitation line. A green dog is not going to hurt the equipment, but a green dog and a green handler just may hurt you if their not up to snuff stuff fails.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Geoff some good points made! Even though the handler should have their own equipment and the proper equipment, it never hurts to lend out equipment and show others how to properly use it. Kindness always has its own rewards!:lol:


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

Ohhhh.... equipment!!!

1) Handlers who get upset because you won't work civil with the dog on a crappy harness...

2) Handlers who get bent because you insist on re-checking their dog's muzzle before you work him....


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## Chris Wild (Jan 30, 2008)

My husband does most of our helper work, but I've done my fair share too. And with several green handlers in our club, we're facing the starstruck, novice handler issues constantly.

Some things I've found helpful...
Having the helper spend a minute explaining what he'll be doing and what the handler's resposibilities are before the handler goes and gets their dog. Many novices especially seem to want to rush to get their dog when it's their turn, without first spending a minute figuring out what they're going to do. Then they either end up on the field with their dog working without having any sort of planning session, or they're standing their on the sidelines with their dog trying to discuss things with the helper, dog is going nuts and handler is flustered by the dog and thus not really paying attention to the helper's instruction... and it makes for bad training all around.

Having an experienced person out on the field to coach the handler. Tell them when to post, when to circle, when to cradle, remind them that indeed posts do NOT move, when to release the dog, etc... This takes some of the work off the helper and allows him to focus more on the dog and not have to split his attention so much between dog and handler.

Tell/show them how to circle and cradle a dog off the protection field and have them practice while playing tug, not just under the stress of protection.

Making the handlers watch other green dogs/handlers work, and giving them a commentary of what's going on so they can get a better idea of what the helper is doing, get a better visual of good/bad handling, and also see how to understand and respond to the helper's cues as to when to let the dog go, etc... It really helps them get a better understanding of what they're supposed to do and why, when they can relax more and focus on watching others, and not just when they're out on the field themselves with that deer in headlight look.

Equipment is also very important. Not just making sure the dog is on a proper harness or aggitation collar, but having a good line that isn't just strong with no stretch to it, but is also easy to grip well so there is no slipping through the hands. Good grippy gloves help too.

Also, handlers need to be taught HOW to post properly. So many stand up straight, brace their legs, but then rely on their arms to hold the dog. They are easily pulled off balance and their torso moves back and forth, causing that post to move. And their arms move back and forth as the dog lunges, giving the dog even more reach. We tell them to hunker down, bend their knees, lean their butt back a bit, brace the line against their thighs, and let their legs do the work. The lower center of gravity makes them less likely to be pulled around or lose balance, and in terms of holding the dog back, it takes the strain off the arms and eliminates elastic arms.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Chris Wild said:


> My husband does most of our helper work, but I've done my fair share too. And with several green handlers in our club, we're facing the starstruck, novice handler issues constantly.
> 
> Some things I've found helpful...
> Having the helper spend a minute explaining what he'll be doing and what the handler's resposibilities are before the handler goes and gets their dog. Many novices especially seem to want to rush to get their dog when it's their turn, without first spending a minute figuring out what they're going to do. Then they either end up on the field with their dog working without having any sort of planning session, or they're standing their on the sidelines with their dog trying to discuss things with the helper, dog is going nuts and handler is flustered by the dog and thus not really paying attention to the helper's instruction... and it makes for bad training all around.
> ...


Chris I'm bouncing back into this again! Praise is a big, big thing. I seem to always praise the dog when the handler should be doing it. Too many times I feel like yelling, "I can't HEAR YOU!" Handlers need to be great coaches and speak good words to their dogs. I think the more you say to your dog the more you will get out of it. Stone quiet isn't the mark of a good handler or coach. And it should be the decoy who seeks good to the dog; this gives the dog the idea that the bad guy is a friend.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Geoff some good points made! Even though the handler should have their own equipment and the proper equipment, it never hurts to lend out equipment and show others how to properly use it. Kindness always has its own rewards!:lol:



Yeah you always get more bees with honey than you do with vinegar! :^o 

Rookie equipment issues .. I see it all the time at our club. Green handlers with green dogs with no equipment. We always now lend agitation collars, harnesses and use our own leads to back tie the green dogs. It is kinda silly to assume that a new off the street handler even knows what to bring to a Dog Sport club the first time. Sure by the time the 3rd, 4th and 5th visit to the club we politely point them to our supplier to get the right stuff if they want to continue.


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## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

Don't forget new handlers need some praise too. When they are doing what you want... mark it and praise. "Yes! Exactly like that!" or "Perfect right there!" When being told to do anything where they have to be conscious of their movements or body, people will be more focused on what they just did that was perfect and really try not to move or change. This goes for any kind of work with or without an animal , make them focus on their movements by giving them a clear goal to maintain rather than just shouting something over and over again that they obviously are not getting. 

Be the dog. Pull and yank and jerk like a dog on the end of the lead, show them that the dog will be going nuts and that when the dog lunges forward they need to not follow or allow forward movement. People are often not really prepared for a dog to be pulling and lunging that way. Let them feel that without the dog, giving them an idea and telling them not to move at all, not even when the dog does *this* (yank or lunge etc) unless instructed to. Make a makeshift line with a piece of string, an extra leash or a collar or something that they can't cross. That gives them something to focus on that is very specific and unmistakable. It is easy to move half an inch at a time and eventually wind up 4 feet away, but not if you have a visual marker.

I am just barely starting with learning decoy work(mondio) so while I have no experience as a decoy to talk, I have clear memories of being a new handler and what would have helped me and things I tell people and help them with when working with them and their dogs in various situations. I'm talking just OB and basic handling/correction. I spend far more time working with people than with their dogs.


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## Bryan Colletti (Feb 16, 2007)

Jennifer writes: "Yes! Exactly like that!" or "Perfect right there!" When being told to do anything where they have to be conscious of their movements or body, people will be more focused on what they just did that was perfect and really try not to move or change




>>>>>>>>>>> Oddly enough I have this before, just not during training 

Just a little tongue and cheek, no pun intended.

Bryan


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## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

HAHAH

Yeah I wasn't thinking about it that way. :-#


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

great post Chris!

As a new decoy you need (a lot!!!) of choaching by an experienced decoy/handler and being talked through and evaluate every excercise. learning on old/experienced dogs.

Green handler must be handled the same, preferably do some work with an expierenced dog to learn some basics.

Green dog/ green handler combi's are a nightmare, even with coaching from a coach and the decoy. If it get's to bad-dog isnt learning or learning wrong things- Dick usually handles the dog, and I talk handler through Dick's handling.
Dog is learning, and new handler learns  

If it is to difficult to learn something, cause handling is complex I usually give the leash to Dick. Still don't like to do it, but it's better. If dogs understands, I'll take over again.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

My pet peeve on both ends of the dog are lack of communication.

Everytime I work with a new decoy I have no idea what they want me to do as a handler, because I know how I want to handle my dog, and I know how I want them to work my dog, but when I dont know what they are doing as a decoy It turns into a mess very fast.

Some decoys say "be a post". Others say "let the dog walk into me". Others say "Keep the line tight but not too tight so the dog can push".

Well without communication this all runs into eachother. You'll end up with a decoy who wants you to do one thing while you do the other.

On the one hand its bad communication.

On the other hand: if 2 people have different ideas on how a dog should be handled and decoyed then this will pose a long term problem. Perhaps it is better to work with a decoy that trains more your style than to try and change a decoys existing style.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Green handlers should wear the e-collar and have set it on vibrate. If they screw up and inch forward, "page them." If they do it again, 30 level them. :twisted: :-k 

See, positive motivational training, and use the clicker to mark proper handler behaviors! :mrgreen: 

Now, where's my coffee? Oh cook...


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Green handlers should wear the e-collar and have set it on vibrate. If they screw up and inch forward, "page them." If they do it again, 30 level them. :twisted: :-k


Some how I don't see that going over to well. I'll tell ya what we did though. When dad got his new E-collar I thought it would be a good idea to try it out on ourselves so we would know what kind of power it had. So we did, theres plenty of juice in that thing, especially wide open. We even had a lady in our club that tried it. We had a lot of laughs that night.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Praise is a big, big thing. I seem to always praise the dog when the handler should be doing it. Too many times I feel like yelling, "I can't HEAR YOU!" Handlers need to be great coaches and speak good words to their dogs.


Just wanted to comment on this; when I first started, I was given no instructions other than 'be a post.' I had no idea what was going on, when to praise, when to have the lead tight and when to have it loose, etc. It goes back to what others have said about communication. I made the mistake of praising at the wrong time once, was fussed at, and from that point on I was hesitant to praise at all because I was afraid I would be doing it at the wrong time! Then you have those people who tell you to praise the dog, but don't get too happy/upbeat about it and fuss at you if you do get too happy - and others who tell you to be really happy and upbeat and fuss at you if you're not! It's hard on us newbies!!


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

:lol: Thats not a "newbie" issue, thats a general issue when working with any trainer you don't know.

You can be really good at OB, then do your OB in front of another trainer, and they will tell you that you're doing this that and the other entirely wrong.


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

Jay, when i got my ecollar we were checking the stim at the tinyest increments, my 18 yr old nephew (at the time) walked in and called us a bunch of F---ing wimps and asked "is that what happenes when you get old? " And proceeded to explain to us that a buddy of his' dog had one and it's nothing. He put it on his neck nice and tight and gave the order to "crank it up" so being older and having learned how to listen i did exactly what he told me. I never seen such a big kid hit the deck so fast, clawing at his neck to get it off, screaming in some language none of us heard before. After a short amount of recovery time and some time to clean the drool off his face, we all discussed the power of an ecollar and the lack of respect some kids show their elders, LOL.


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## Howard Young (Nov 24, 2007)

Al I love the story. As the trainer at my PD I see it as my responsibilty to find any cocky or overly trusting handler to experience the business end a good e-collar. :twisted: 

I have enjoyed reading the posts. The issues over the years haven't really changed. Communication is certainly key. I'm guilty of starting an exercise and then quickly realizing that I haven't explained our goal or purpose prior to getting started.

As a habit though I always backtie the dog and work into the dog in the beginning. I do like to have the handler pull up ever so slightly on the line to make sure that the dog doesn't bang hard on the end of the line. We only use about 6 ft. of line initially so the dog can't get a hard charge. Fixed poles that have a cable that rotates are great but handlers still need to know what to do if you plan to slip the sleeve. Pushing the dog around the circle seems to work better than pulling.


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## Jack Martin (Feb 12, 2008)

Being a newbie is tough for the helper and the handler.The one thing we were taught when I first started was if the helper gets bit we are all done for awhile.Some people went huhhh?You know who they are.The rest of us went oh shit! The tie out is going to always be the safest route to keeping our helpers healthy so we can all train.Some people will never have enough cordination and strength to hold back there dogs properly.](*,) Some peeps can't even hold a freakin puppy in position. *We must take care of our helpers*!=D>Without them we can not move forward.


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## Alex Corral (Jul 10, 2007)

Al Curbow said:


> Jay, when i got my ecollar we were checking the stim at the tinyest increments, my 18 yr old nephew (at the time) walked in and called us a bunch of F---ing wimps and asked "is that what happenes when you get old? " And proceeded to explain to us that a buddy of his' dog had one and it's nothing. He put it on his neck nice and tight and gave the order to "crank it up" so being older and having learned how to listen i did exactly what he told me. I never seen such a big kid hit the deck so fast, clawing at his neck to get it off, screaming in some language none of us heard before. After a short amount of recovery time and some time to clean the drool off his face, we all discussed the power of an ecollar and the lack of respect some kids show their elders, LOL.


Funny story Al!!! I think anyone who is going to strap an e-collar on their pooch, needs to wear one too. I bought a Dogtra 1200NC and before my dog wore it, I stimmed myself. I got to about 45-50 before I started speaking that same language as your nephew. My dog usually gets 20-25 depending on the distractions.


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## Kris Finison (Nov 26, 2007)

I must say, I am almost up for my SDA decoy certification and I haven't run into many of the problems many of you seem to be bringing up. 
I took a minute and reflected back on all the times I've worked dogs in the club from being totally green to earlier today and I must say that I think that while I know I've made some mistakes from time to time, I learn by them ASAP because I have multiple experienced decoys coaching me. Not only from a decoy stand point but also from a handler and judge perspective (and yes, one of them is certified as a judge for multiple sports.)

The handlers in the club all seem to do a great job. The ones with dogs that are shitty towards us decoys are mostly young and learning... and we understand that. The older ones get reminded of what is expected and so far it's very seldom that we have to repeat the correction. 

Hope this thread stays alive. I like hearing what other decoys think on such issues they are having!


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

> I haven't run into many of the problems many of you seem to be bringing up.


Train in a few different places and you will run into all sorts of annoying problems


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## Kris Finison (Nov 26, 2007)

Mike, 
I don't doubt that one bit. I'm sure I'll run into bumps and snags down the road and I think anyone would be stupid to expect not to. 



Jack Martin said:


> The one thing we were taught when I first started was if the helper gets bit we are all done for awhile...


If one of us gets bit we'll obviously halt briefly to make sure the decoy is ok. Then we'll usually continue, swapping out the decoy or slightly altering the way the exercise was done if need be. We don't stop training as if it is an honest mistake on either party, then they need to learn what they were doing wrong and be taught the correct way. Many training sessions are just as much about the handler and decoy as they are about the dog.
We do, however have a rule that if someone's dog draws blood on a decoy, the handler then owes them a steak dinner. :mrgreen:


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## Will Kline (Jan 10, 2008)

Kris Finison said:


> We do, however have a rule that if someone's dog draws blood on a decoy, the handler then owes them a steak dinner. :mrgreen:


I like that idea! :-k Going to bring that up at next session. I "gave blood" at sundays session. Was pushing on the dogs head to re-enforce the grip on the suit and as he regripped my thumb was wrapped to close to the muzzle. He bit, I jerked away and had quite the nice laceration! No worries, lesson learned...Stupid decoy mistake! :evil: Bandaged up the thumb and we just kept on training, although I can assure you that I will be much more mindful of my hand placement! 8-[


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

I was working one of our training group’s dogs in civil a few months ago on post… he started to target my left arm so I started working him hard with my right. I’m left handed so my right arm dexterity is a little off. Sure enough the dog caught me on the hand and tore up my thumb. I was wearing a hidden sleeve and got him onto it without a problem.

The handler sees the blood pouring from my hand and comes running in, panicked to out his dog. I started yelling…. “Pump him up Ron…. Build him up with praise… Don’t out him…. GOOD PACKEN RON!!!... TELL HIM!!!!” The dog was on fire… it was such a good session and we needed to capitalize on it…. We HAD to end it proud for the dog. The handler says, “You’re bleeding bad, you want me to out him??” I jokingly told him to take advantage of my dumb mistake, reach in and rub some of my blood on his lips!!! 

The handler felt bad like he or the dog made the mistake… it was my fault.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

With any new decoy have a plan A plan B and a plan c which is putting the dog away and figureing out what went wrong in the first place.

Everytime that I train with people that stick to this philosophy, I accomplish good things. When you throw it together, and wing it.........


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## Kris Finison (Nov 26, 2007)

Will Kline said:


> I like that idea! :-k Going to bring that up at next session. I "gave blood" at sundays session. Was pushing on the dogs head to re-enforce the grip on the suit and as he regripped my thumb was wrapped to close to the muzzle. He bit, I jerked away and had quite the nice laceration! No worries, lesson learned...Stupid decoy mistake! :evil: Bandaged up the thumb and we just kept on training, although I can assure you that I will be much more mindful of my hand placement! 8-[


:lol: "Giving blood" I like that! 
I've been nabbed a couple times. Once was by a Dutchie bitch who was dirty biting on her OUT-GUARD command. Had my hand tucked inside the sleeve of the jacket, but she was dirty biting and I wasn't moving so as not to encourage it. 
Took a few corrections but she got the idea and we made her do it right.
We like to work through a problem immediately when it appears a few instances in a row. Fortunately there's handlers, trainers, etc. in our club with a LOT of experience so that there is hardly ever a solution situation that is "thrown together" per se.


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## Kris Finison (Nov 26, 2007)

Jeff, I agree having a couple plans on hand is a good way to prepare.


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## Dan Long (Jan 10, 2008)

Kris Finison said:


> We do, however have a rule that if someone's dog draws blood on a decoy, the handler then owes them a steak dinner. :mrgreen:


If we did that at our club, Howard would be as big as me. We'd need to have a jury to decide- it's not always the handlers fault! Right Howard?


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## Jack Martin (Feb 12, 2008)

I understand what your saying on a minor flesh wound. Those are common even in obedience. What I was referring to was a more serious bite. Most of the decoys here have the luxury of body suits so the area to get bit for real is much more limited. In schutzhund there is just the sleeve and maybe scratch pants. So when I said we would be done for a while I was thinking of a face bite,leg,or opposite arm with a crunch and tear involved. The old endorphins say keep going but it can look alot worse to the people that don't see blood often.LOL


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