# Possible future cross



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Jackie is an 11 generation dog that I held back to breed to Griff eventually. Since I am keeping a male from this last litter I got to thinking that she might possible serve a better purpose if she was bred to to this male pup. So the process begins again...hours of typing up pedegrees of potential crosses so I can see the possible crosses crosses on paper. This is what this cross looks like and would be a 13 gen cross. The male pup is 12gen and Jackie is 11gen.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I been looking the above pedigree over. I like it. Jackie has all the prey drive in the world and is extremely tall for a female and is taller than most the males. Every pup in the litters she is out of cross is tall like that. One thing that I noticed is that, even though I have the 2007 master fur dog here, he isn't in most pedigrees. The other thing that was really obvious is that the titled dogs parents, Titan and Bailey, show up in everything.


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## Meena Moitra (Jul 11, 2008)

do it, what is the worst that could happen? "cash"? Are the females named after the coins? :wink:


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Cash? It was either that or Newt. Let's face it, his mother is Palin. Had one I called GW also but that was because he was going to Canada. They changed his name by the way.


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## Kristi Siggers (May 27, 2009)

You have a litter from Griffin on the ground?! Can we see some pictures? Please?!

Never mind I found the other thread


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

The other thread on 12 gen pups.


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## Meena Moitra (Jul 11, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Cash? It was either that or Newt. Let's face it, his mother is Palin. Had one I called GW also but that was because he was going to Canada. They changed his name by the way.


I always liked The Man in Black.
Penny, Nickel, and?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Good name....Penny. You just named one of the females I am keeping. How is the wrist?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Kristi Siggers said:


> You have a litter from Griffin on the ground?! Can we see some pictures? Please?!
> 
> Never mind I found the other thread


Kristi, were you the gal working with Griff's litter?


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## Meena Moitra (Jul 11, 2008)

stitched and moving. My working dogs are now nurses and doing very well at their job.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Im not sure what people can add don as i guess few here would know these lines.

But one thing that stands out is that the winchester dog would want to be strong in all aspects cause you really have line bred on him heavily.

I had a bulldog that was bred similiar to the bitch on the bottom of ya pedigree and she was great.But its very common for best to best inbreeding or linebreeding in bulldogs then you outcross and some results have been incredible.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

brad robert said:


> Im not sure what people can add don as i guess few here would know these lines.
> 
> But one thing that stands out is that the winchester dog would want to be strong in all aspects cause you really have line bred on him heavily.
> 
> I had a bulldog that was bred similiar to the bitch on the bottom of ya pedigree and she was great.But its very common for best to best inbreeding or linebreeding in bulldogs then you outcross and some results have been incredible.


I don't put them up for comment Brad. I put them up for desensitization purposes. To refute the common beliefs of today regarding tight breeding. So people can see what goes inot a breeding program. So they can see what a working dog pedigree looks like since pedigrees are perported to carry so much weight. So many breeders believe throwing a few related dogs together on occassion means they are line breeding. Yes I post the pedigrees for a purpose. Comment isn't one of them. Winchester is on there more than it shows. Clementine Devin Moore is a Winchester/Blaze daughter. This is a five generation pedigree. Picture this going back another 8 generations. I hear rumors that they are trying to regulate how tight we can bred dogs and many people today believe linebreeding causes all kinds of things that are not true....that is why I post the pedigrees.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Im not sure how you can post them on the www and not expect comments Don??? Im sorry that doesnt make sense to me.

One thing i can say for certain Don is if you linebreed or inbreed on bad nerve the results are are not so hot.Been there done that.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I have no problem with comments Brad, just don't post pedigrees expecting to get a lot.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

brad robert said:


> One thing i can say for certain Don is if you linebreed or inbreed on bad nerve the results are are not so hot.Been there done that.


I would imagine your right. Never bred on bad nerve so can't comment. Bringing in new blood is about as spooky as it can get


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## Edward Weiss (Sep 19, 2011)

Don I noticed the pedigree and an error at the top of the page it is Ilko v Krebsforde (not Lika) he was IPO3 VPG 3 and a working police dog and who sired Rowdy (now in Colorado ranch duty. 
Below is the pedigree of Grace who I imported mother of Griff.

http://www.vonmontechristo.de/html/x-wurf.html


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## Kristi Siggers (May 27, 2009)

Sorry Don wrong girl!


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

When i calculate this pedegre I only get a 5 generation complete pedegree. Then te COI is 13 %. Do you have som more dogs that I can add. A bigger pedegree. Wuld be nice to se


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Edward Weiss said:


> Don I noticed the pedigree and an error at the top of the page it is Ilko v Krebsforde (not Lika) he was IPO3 VPG 3 and a working police dog and who sired Rowdy (now in Colorado ranch duty.
> Below is the pedigree of Grace who I imported mother of Griff.
> 
> http://www.vonmontechristo.de/html/x-wurf.html


Thanks Ed. I had trouble reading that one. I know there are a lot of titled dogs behind Griff...just never type them in.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

andreas broqvist said:


> When i calculate this pedegre I only get a 5 generation complete pedegree. Then te COI is 13 %. Do you have som more dogs that I can add. A bigger pedegree. Wuld be nice to se


Andreas, I haven't got anyhing on one pedegree but got a lot of 4 and 5 gen pedigrees on the various dogs. Nothing where it is together. I never do COI's so don't know, but, 13%? Adding that Griff sure knocked the heck out of what I hav been told.
So where have you been hiding?


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Ok. If you have the time Can you pm me thos 4 and 5 gen peds on you dog, its interesting to se the way you breed and how high you been in coi in some dogs. 

Just been working alott so i have not hade the time to be on her. But now ther is cristmass and al deadlines are done. So now im back


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

A lot higher than 13%. Hutch is linebred 3 - 3,4 in Yoschy, and his COI is higher than 13% I have personally never found a use for calculating COI's. COI is a measurement of inbreeding that says nothing useful about the _quality of inbreeding_.

The advisable threshold percentage COI to "stay under" is just an arbitrary number that has no scientific merit to it's existance, and there's no other clear defined _useful purpose_ to measuring COI for anything beyond it's own numerical sake.

_Quality of inbreeding _depends on what's in the pot; could very well be dealing with a pot of piss in the first place. But, if a pot of gold were representing a high-quality high COI, a lower COI from that line would represent a pot of gold mixed with some scratch tickets.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I agree Daryl. One thing it does is giving the proponents of "assortive breeding" a number like 3.5% as a maximum for discussion. Anything past that is bad ju ju. LOL In reality, what do any percentages of COI actually tell us....Nada, Nothing! The pups/dogs producd will tell you everything regardless of the COI. COI is a useless number. But, then again, talking COI's makes the breeder feel he is projecting knowledge similar to using terminology that isn't understood.


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## Donna DeYoung (Jan 29, 2010)

so that's 12 or 8 generations of American breeding of Airedales? Do you use any imported English blood? what are the differences in yours vs mother country?


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Well if you read My post you se that its 13% in 4 generations becaus i did not have more and askt don about more pedegrees.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Donna DeYoung said:


> so that's 12 or 8 generations of American breeding of Airedales? Do you use any imported English blood? what are the differences in yours vs mother country?


There isn't any working stock left in England to even bother with Donna.. I guess looking at it one way, it was all originally English stock. LOL Differences? England is show stock, 40lbs to 55lbs mostly and 21" females to 23" males. Jackie(female) the one in the pedigree is 8 mo right now and about 29" tall and about 75lbs. Has extreme prey drive and built more like a greyhound than a box.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

andreas broqvist said:


> Well if you read My post you se that its 13% in 4 generations becaus i did not have more and askt don about more pedegrees.


 I can send you some that I have on the computer Andreas. May talke a day or two.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Thanks don that wuld be nice.

Daryl Ehret
Who is hutch and what does it have to do with this pedegree.
Its an outcross pedegre. If you se the 2 generation wher he used grifin ist 0% inbreding.
Jakie on the other hand is 20 % on only 4 generation. So if I get more info i gess she wiil be over 30 atleast.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I didn't see his outcross pedigree. I was making an assumption based the ones I have seen, with 30% or more COI. You're probably right, in that you'll need to go back several generations to find common ancestry. But what insight will you gain from it?


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

It gives you a point in how mutch genetic diversety you have lost.
Oscars its only à number, but its good to know how tight you are. You are wery right that the number ther self is worth nothing if you know wery litle about the lines, and ofcaus it dosent make à crappy breeding good that you can say à dog is 45% inbred if ther is crap behind it.

But you can se theoretecly how mutch of sertan dogs that shuld be in the pups. 
If you know your lines you can also se in what % do i often nead to outcross and know some breedings before its done.

But yes its wery diferent from lines to lines and breed to breed.
My first breeding was only 4% and it was à bad liter, even thou the parents was good, My last breeding was 34 % and i realy like that liter.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I have never paid attention to COI's. The number tell me nothing of interest. As far as how much diversity I have lost I can see it in the depressed pups produced. Don't need a COI to tell me when they are getting up there. When the number of viable pups falls to a certain level, it is time for new blood. Possibly, coi's benefit those that survival #'s mean more that the quality of dogs being produced. Producing one or two outstanding dogs out of a litter of 10 is just not what I do this for. 
I used to listen to folks about breeding best to best for a function. Took no time at all to see that was a dead end road even though it is one of the # 1 mantras of breeders and non breeders alike. Didn't take but a few generations before I realized I may as well have a yard full of hounds out there. That is when I realized, what is best can vary considerably. About then is when I realized the "best" hunter was not always the best dog if he was so gung ho he was stupid. Right about then is when I quit looking for the best, craziest hunters and raised the bar to the most confident pups. In the end, they can do it all better....unless you truly want totally single function dogs that can serve no other purpose. Coi's can never evaluate what is sitting in front of you. May as well close your eyes and make grand speculations. I don't put titles on my pedigrees because they are like COI's..... all they tell me is that the dog had a better than average trainer. Doesn't mean the dog was that good....doesn't mean he can reproduce himself.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Sounds like you're making the assumption that genetic diversity is a _"good thing"_. Don't buy into that, there's no scientific proof that genetic diversity does anything but hide recessive faults. Genetic diversity doesn't even have much impact on the broad scope of evolution. Besides, in dog breeding, we're attempting to _maintain_ a standard, not breach it's boundaries.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Which post are you addressing Daryl?


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Andreas's, because I didn't see yours yet. I just wanted to point out that the notion that the genetic diversity concept is ultimately beneficial, is nothing more than a consensus belief among published "experts". It has nothing to do with "good" or "bad", just understanding what it entails is the important part.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

I wrote that i have dogs now in + 30% and we are breeding even tighter so no I do folow that line.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

And I shuld maby change My description of COI. To say that it calculates the loss of geene diversety is sounding negative. It calculates how many % are "geene coppys"


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I would imagine your right. Never bred on bad nerve so can't comment. Bringing in new blood is about as spooky as it can get



You never bred on bad nerve, or what you see as nerve, have you ever seen it appear in your lines? What did/do you do about it?


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