# Dobermanns - There are just no words....



## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

http://www.nydobermans.com/videos
Wow :-o


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## Nathen Danforth (Feb 12, 2009)

Yeah...I don't know squat but it seems they could have done without the sleeves and just worn really heavy gloves the way those dogs were going into avoidance and staying on the end of the sleeve.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

A prime example of conditioned responses......but no heart. I'd be ashamed to put those on my website (if I had one). It's amazing what some people think are good dogs. 

Howard


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## steve davis (Mar 24, 2009)

the funny thing is i have seen "junk" dogs work better than that...the sad thing is, the doberman will never be what it used to be..


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

This would be a nice addition to that Dobermann forum, except I am tired of being the bad guy all the time. LOL


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## Paul Fox (May 25, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> except I am tired of being the bad guy all the time. LOL


LoL...Don't give up, most of the time you talk a lot of sense and thank you for some lulz.


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## Guest (Jun 2, 2009)

Whoa. I hope that's not an accurate representation of the breed today :-o


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Vin Chiu said:


> Whoa. I hope that's not an accurate representation of the breed today :-o


From my perspective it is. I've always said there were three breeds I just flat refuse to work with. The top of the list is the Doberman. Strictly a personal opinion, but I think they are among the dumbest animals on 4 legs.

DFrost


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## Erynn Lucas (Dec 10, 2008)

Vin Chiu said:


> Whoa. I hope that's not an accurate representation of the breed today :-o


It isn't and in the Dobermann circle, these people are being laughed at all over. It is sad however, that somebody will buy these crap dogs and try to take them to a club and say look at my new PP dog that is just an ass kicker. Then they will get run off the field. Sickening. Not to mention I HAVE emailed these people and not only do they think that their dogs are working REALLY REALLY well, they are even doing some false advertizing about health testing. 

Buyer beware.


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## Erynn Lucas (Dec 10, 2008)

David Frost said:


> From my perspective it is. I've always said there were three breeds I just flat refuse to work with. The top of the list is the Doberman. Strictly a personal opinion, but I think they are among the dumbest animals on 4 legs.
> 
> DFrost


I think this is funny for a number of reasons.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

WTF I wonder if "level 2 protection" means 2 helpers or a guy wearing 2 sleeves at any rate I want my minute and 22 seconds back.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Wow, I'm soooooooo impressed, just look at that dog chew up the end of that sleeve! The dog is so protective he doesn't want to leave the handler! I understand why they are wearing two sleeves, they should be wearing a body suit IMHO, you just never know were that dog will bite next! =; 

So sad this breed has come to this!


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Yeah, super sad that they think that's good material to post. I'd be ashamed. Good reminder to the rest of us to not let this happen to our breeds of choice, if at all possible. I just can't see the Dobes making a comeback, nothing to breed to.


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## Erynn Lucas (Dec 10, 2008)

Michelle Kehoe said:


> Yeah, super sad that they think that's good material to post. I'd be ashamed. Good reminder to the rest of us to not let this happen to our breeds of choice, if at all possible. I just can't see the Dobes making a comeback, nothing to breed to.


How about "limited to breed to"? Are you in to Dobermans? Do you know what is out there? Yes, I will admit that there is a lot of shitty Dobermans out there, but really, there are a lot of shitty GSDs and Mals too. Unfortunately, there are so many mediocre Doberman handlers that that don't care how they are portraying the breed. There are some good ones though and I predict next year will be VERY good for the breed! There are some real up-and-comers that will hit the trial feilds next year under great handlers.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Michelle Kehoe said:


> Yeah, super sad that they think that's good material to post. I'd be ashamed. Good reminder to the rest of us to not let this happen to our breeds of choice, if at all possible. I just can't see the Dobes making a comeback, nothing to breed to.


 The sad thing is keep in mind this looks like a bad ass dog to 99.9 percent of the population. We are only a freckle on the ass of the entire dog world.


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## Erynn Lucas (Dec 10, 2008)

Here is an example of a real working GSD police dog. Lol, that is funny!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQpu9UoXCeM&feature=related


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Erynn Lucas said:


> How about "limited to breed to"? Are you in to Dobermans? Do you know what is out there? Yes, I will admit that there is a lot of shitty Dobermans out there, but really, there are a lot of shitty GSDs and Mals too. Unfortunately, there are so many mediocre Doberman handlers that that don't care how they are portraying the breed. There are some good ones though and I predict next year will be VERY good for the breed! There are some real up-and-comers that will hit the trial feilds next year under great handlers.


I have been in Schutzhund for about 16yrs and I have seen 3 that were worth feeding one if the three is in my top 5 strongest dogs I have ever seen work it was a amazing. It has some skin disorder that made it look very bad though.
This the non cropping of the ears and docking of the tails in Europe may be of great benefit to the breed JMO it could remove some of the fashion and popularity of the breed and refocus breeding efforts back to work???


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

aaahhhh, You guys just don't know what your missing! Sure, anybody can bite a sleeve, but you sure as hell will want a dobie around if someone ever comes after you weilding a rake:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfY_pS8BldI&feature=related

Or if you need someone to listen:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QYcL0Lbeks&NR=1

Or share your blankie with:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSADWfpoEpI&feature=related


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

OMG :-o 

I thought it was a joke at first. But they actually are for real? And think this is bragging about their dobermans working quality??:sad: 

I swear my untrained mal puppy could do better... :sad: 



David Frost said:


> From my perspective it is. I've always said there were three breeds I just flat refuse to work with. The top of the list is the Doberman. Strictly a personal opinion, but I think they are among the dumbest animals on 4 legs.


LOL it's those little heads, cuz, you know, their brain grows too big... :lol:


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## Mario Fernandez (Jun 21, 2008)

Good bless them if they can get the money for their dogs more power to them. I think they give some of the PP folks a bad name, not just them but anybody that does bite work. 

Every breed has shitters...Seen my fair share at training, seen far more shitters in GSD and Mals than dobies. As far as dobies their are some good ones out their. 

Erynn didn't you get a Covae X Usa pup from Wendy? I met you at the SW regionals. I like Covae a nice female period. Usa a ugly looking thing but a fun dog to work with tons of drive ...you should have fun with the pups. 

I should be posting some video of Covae and Eiko...from a seminar this weekend.

Regards, 

Mario


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## Erynn Lucas (Dec 10, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> aaahhhh, You guys just don't know what your missing! Sure, anybody can bite a sleeve, but you sure as hell will want a dobie around if someone ever comes after you weilding a rake:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfY_pS8BldI&feature=related
> 
> ...


Don't get me started on the albino Doberman! Surely, if I look, I will find a bunch of pet youtube videos of GSDs doing something cute or stupid.


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## Erynn Lucas (Dec 10, 2008)

Mario Fernandez said:


> Good bless them if they can get the money for their dogs more power to them. I think they give some of the PP folks a bad name, not just them but anybody that does bite work.
> 
> Every breed has shitters...Seen my fair share at training, seen far more shitters in GSD and Mals than dobies. As far as dobies their are some good ones out their.
> 
> ...


I did meet you! You were kind enough to give me a warm up bite. Too bad I am a dumbass that doesn't know the rules, lol. Learning as I go I guess. 

I did get a Covae x Usa girl. She is 4.5 months and coming along. I am lucky enough to have found a job up in Modesto, so we are moving there late summer. I look forward to seeing more of the working folk in that area. I was impressed with what I saw in Eiko for sure and can't wait to see more!


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Erynn Lucas said:


> Don't get me started on the albino Doberman! Surely, if I look, I will find a bunch of pet youtube videos of GSDs doing something cute or stupid.


Of course you could but this thread is about dumb dobies.  Feel free to start a stupid shepherd thread or maladjusted mali thread if you want, unfortunately there are plenty of examples of shitters in all breeds!

I can understand how you must feel, I know there are good dobies, I think everyone would agree there are good ones, but I also have no doubt that it pains you as a dobie person to see all the stupid shitters out there being bred on purpose (like people breeding albinos on purpose.....yuck).


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Well duh there Mario. Higher # of GSD and Mals out there to find shitters from, so naturally we will see more failures there as well but if we talked %'s...? I have seen one nice Dobe and she was just a wee pup, who's knows what she grew up to be but she had more drive and nerve than the adults I have seen. Odds of all the nice ones getting together and breeding are slim.

Excusses of good homes and good handlers to place pups with, is a struggle for every breed and breeder.


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## Gary Garner (Jun 30, 2007)

Don't forget that Dobermans went 'rogue' after they were trained to be bank robbers in 1972... [-X 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnuRQR-3Ui8


=D>


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

My personal favorite:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUwnOsTm96A

bowwowwowyipeeyoyippeyay


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## Erynn Lucas (Dec 10, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> Of course you could but this thread is about dumb dobies.  Feel free to start a stupid shepherd thread or maladjusted mali thread if you want, unfortunately there are plenty of examples of shitters in all breeds!
> 
> I can understand how you must feel, I know there are good dobies, I think everyone would agree there are good ones, but I also have no doubt that it pains you as a dobie person to see all the stupid shitters out there being bred on purpose (like people breeding albinos on purpose.....yuck).


It does pain me a great deal. The "breeders" who started this forum are one of thousands that are bringing it down. It is disgusting! That and they sit and defend their POS dogs and training. Nobody has said anything about training, but perhaps the dogs wouldn't be quite so shitty if they had any type of decent foundation. Perhaps yes, but perhaps no. You want to see horrid, check out Ushi Fuchs site. She is "working" a Familydobe dog that is a level 3 or something PP dog. Talk about terrible all around. She must have just taken it down though as it isn't on there anymore. Damn, that must mean that they found a buyer for that dog. He was priced at 25,000.

Anyways, yes, I am saying that there are large numbers of crappy Dobermans out there just like any other breed. I do not believe it is over for them however. Mario mentioned Wendy, who was on the world team with her mal has a couple of VERY nice dobes coming up.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Erynn Lucas said:


> It does pain me a great deal. The "breeders" who started this forum are one of thousands that are bringing it down. It is disgusting! That and they sit and defend their POS dogs and training. Nobody has said anything about training, but perhaps the dogs wouldn't be quite so shitty if they had any type of decent foundation. Perhaps yes, but perhaps no. You want to see horrid, check out Ushi Fuchs site. She is "working" a Familydobe dog that is a level 3 or something PP dog. Talk about terrible all around. She must have just taken it down though as it isn't on there anymore. Damn, that must mean that they found a buyer for that dog. He was priced at 25,000.
> 
> Anyways, yes, I am saying that there are large numbers of crappy Dobermans out there just like any other breed. I do not believe it is over for them however. Mario mentioned Wendy, who was on the world team with her mal has a couple of VERY nice dobes coming up.


I remember your dog being a good one. Do you have any video?


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## Alex Corral (Jul 10, 2007)

I had to wait til I got home to watch the video...



susan tuck said:


> My personal favorite:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUwnOsTm96A
> 
> bowwowwowyipeeyoyippeyay


Nice, that's actually a pretty good song hahaha.. You know I wonder if the dogs from the Doberman gang were decent dogs or shitters too? I hope to see more more working Dobes..... really is sad to see the breed in this shape. Especially since they were the only breed specifically bred to be a guard dog. *I think*


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## Erynn Lucas (Dec 10, 2008)

Chris Michalek said:


> I remember your dog being a good one. Do you have any video?


Thanks. She is decent. There are better and worse. The only video I have on her is our regional appearance (really short, lol) and her long bite from her SchH A. I don't have a camera.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

Gary Garner said:


> Don't forget that Dobermans went 'rogue' after they were trained to be bank robbers in 1972... [-X
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnuRQR-3Ui8
> 
> ...


gary, 

i LOVED that movie just for all the bad-ass dobes in it  but you must take into consideration i was young at the time, lol....would probably puke if i watched it now, but will never know as i don't have time to watch it again.

my 2 cents worth on Dobes: i love 'em , love their intelligence, quickness in learning, absolute awesome physical abilities (and their coat's kinda nice too relative to a GSD,lol). however--i've only had rescue Dobes, never even attempted to work them in bitework.

i know for a fact that my last boy Zeus, would and did, bite a person physically assaulting me, tho he was a nerve-bag. he was a good boy, i loved him , but would never have thought he would have the guts to bite someone like that. he could've just stayed out of it, but he bit. not hard, mind you, but hard enough.

here's what a vet told me 25+ yrs ago regarding the dif between a Dobe and a GSD: "a Dobe is like a lightbulb, they can turn on/off; a GSD thinks too much..." this was after my GSD barked at him when he appeared in the doorway of the exam room room to look at a 3" gash across the dog's ribs. which the vet looked at FROM the doorway and told me it didn't need any treatment. never used that vet again needless to say.

however, i've found his to be true, IME.

and i love a "thinking" dog.


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## Dan Long (Jan 10, 2008)

My loveable Dane bites better than the dog in the first post and she's never been trained in bitework, just let her see the sleeve a few times and got her to play with it.


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## Jimmy Dalton (Apr 29, 2009)

why don't some of you great trainers go help improve the breed instead of putting it down


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

How would you start ?? How would trainers be able to do anything ?? Where would you find a Dobermann that wasn't a genetic disaster that had the ability to work ??

Try and answer some of those questions, I would be curious to hear the answers. Not many do more than bitch when the breed is slammed, and the few times I have responded to this kind of question, you could hear crickets.

Dobermann people cannot see their dogs for what they are, let alone stop breeding junk that is paying the mortgage.

Like to see your answer.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Jimmy, I don't really see many posts that are putting the breed down - it's qualified itself.

You should talk to the breed clubs - because as far as I can see, they have absolutely no real interest in furthering the Dobermann as a sports dog, apart from the one or two breeders in Germany. I watched Lennox of Aurachgrund (I put a link in). This dog did a purrfect IPO protection 3 but the "fire" was missing. The dogs are easier to handlie in the control because the drive is often lacking.

I would like to see the Dobermann re-enter the sport scene - it's built like a dog should be that needs to run and jump but as far as I know, tests for joint, spinal, hip proofs are lacking in many clubs and, as I said before, the Dobermann people seem to have blinkers in front of their eyes. They won't, as a rule, compete against other breeds and this is fatal. They're just stamping on spot.

I had a very good Briard that was easy to train, drive, fearless in nature, athletic but this was a one-off and I realised it and changed the breed but my colleagues with Dobermänner won't do this. OK, admirable but then they should go out and compete with the rest of us. My girlfriend slides round the mild helpers and the mild judges to get her results. 

What more can I say.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

I just watched the videos......WOW! 
I typed a very long paragraph discussing my opinion of the breed, but then I decided not to post it and offend some of the people who have Dobermanns.
So instead I will just say.....WOW!


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Mike, an honest opinion can't offend and it would be interesting to know what you thought of the breed, maybe for the Dobermann people.


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## Erynn Lucas (Dec 10, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Jimmy, I don't really see many posts that are putting the breed down - it's qualified itself.
> 
> You should talk to the breed clubs - because as far as I can see, they have absolutely no real interest in furthering the Dobermann as a sports dog, apart from the one or two breeders in Germany. I watched Lennox of Aurachgrund (I put a link in). This dog did a purrfect IPO protection 3 but the "fire" was missing. The dogs are easier to handlie in the control because the drive is often lacking.
> 
> ...


While I will admit that there are lots of people in the breed that fall into this category, there are some out there that are trying to stage a comeback. Joel Monroe has a Doberman now that I think he will begin trialing this year. Wendy Schmitt just V'd in protection with her bitch at Placer County which is a respected club, no? Don't get me started on her male Eiko. He is only just over a year and is going to kick some ass late this year, or next year. Puppies from her litters are becoming of age to trial and they have gotten SchH degrees and one just got his FR1. I have a decent bitch that I have never trialed at a Doberman only trial, never on my home field and never with my home helper. These are not midnight trials either for this group. I took my bitch after not doing ANY training for a month (puppy was whipping my ass) and went to "spectate" at a trial. Well, one thing led to another and I entered for a SchH 2. I will be the first to admit that was VERY stupid as I had not done 4 blinds, back transport etc, but I do love to trial. Anyways, we mostly passed and the judge was Bill Szentmiklosi (sp). 

I don't know that many Doberman folks, or any other folks for that matter. These are the serious people that I know about. So I guess I am saying, yes, there is some crap out there. It is not hopeless though. If the higher level trainers wanted to try a Doberman, they only need to look to Nor Cal for a young pup.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I have no idea what's going on in America but I would say go out there, find a good trainer, one that trains Malis or GSDs but not only Dobermanns and work at it. Compete with all and sundry and watch the malis and GSDs and use their practices. Don't stay in a Dobermann Club and rotate with them on the spot. 

Who knows what you can achieve? Even it's just a drop in the ocean, it's worth fighting for what you believe in.


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## Burly Soldier (Jun 3, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> I just watched the videos......WOW!
> I typed a very long paragraph discussing my opinion of the breed, but then I decided not to post it and offend some of the people who have Dobermanns.
> So instead I will just say.....WOW!


Mike-
I checked out your site to see where you were coming from. Very impressive. If more people such as yourself committed to the breed like you do for yours we wouldnt be here today. Now I am no expert, but I am a Dobermann owner with an imported pup from Europe with strong working bloodlines. I have never trained a smarter dog ever and I have never been so happy as a dog owner. This is my first post here but I heard about this site through another dobe forum. Yes I think this was a horrible example of a protection dog but would it be that hard to find an equally shit example of a GSD or Mal? Or what about your standard american line GSD? They suffered much the same fate. 

IMO dobes became over saturated due to their popularity


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Burly Soldier said:


> Mike-
> I checked out your site to see where you were coming from. Very impressive. If more people such as yourself committed to the breed like you do for yours we wouldnt be here today. Now I am no expert, but I am a Dobermann owner with an imported pup from Europe with strong working bloodlines. I have never trained a smarter dog ever and I have never been so happy as a dog owner. This is my first post here but I heard about this site through another dobe forum. Yes I think this was a horrible example of a protection dog but would it be that hard to find an equally shit example of a GSD or Mal? Or what about your standard american line GSD? They suffered much the same fate.
> 
> IMO dobes became over saturated due to their popularity


Thanks for your comments about my website and our dogs. I owned a nice Dobermann bitch out of Agir Miss Jakoso SchH 3 IPO 3 (Butch Henderson) and Hillary Cerny Trun SchH 3 IPO 3 (Liz Akenhead at Von Rubenhof) This was an "A" litter puppy named Austin Von Rubenhof. She was actually a very nice Dobermann bitch. But the problem was this, even though she was a very nice Dobermann, I found myself always saying "she is very nice for a Dobermann", instead of just saying "she is a very nice dog". She actually worked very well in the bite work on a suit, a sleeve, in hidden equipment and in a muzzle, she was a very serious dog, her obedience was super, but she could not track a big mac with legs. Her nerves were a little thinner than I would have liked.
Overall she was a very nice Dobermann. I have not seen many Dobermann females as nice as her.
That "A" litter from Rubenhof was honestly a very nice litter in general.
Since then I have not seen many litters produce very consistantly and have not seen many good Dobermanns really. I find myself comparing the Dobermanns I see to that litter and to the parents of that litter and most of them just dont compare.
I dont hate the breed. I hate the fact that almost none of them work to my standard. I actually really like the look, the coat, the easy trainability, the close bond with the handler they seem to have. But the issues they have are way too much for me to deal with.
I raised mine like a real working dog in a kennel full of GSD and Malinois, she did not get the special Dobermann treatment that everyone thinks is so neccessary for them. 
What I dont understand is that all of the Dobermann people give 5 examples of great working Dobermanns, and then they say that there are shitters in the GSD and Mali breeds too.
How many really good working GSDs and Malinois are there in the World, or have there been in the past??? Thousands and Thousands of them. How many really good Dobermanns are there?? Is there 100?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

For me, it is bitter to talk about the Dobermann. I loved the breed and watched it go into show heaven for years. I have talked to many people that own Dobes and looked in the (show) stud book, and every one of them have some sort of genetic problem, or are a carrier. 

Maybe I seem a bit harsh, and I should probably alway start by saying that the slam is not on the people that do try, but the many many lying bags of shit that are carrying on genetic problems as their dogs are carriers.

I want to see any dog that is doing the work do well, but I get carried away. 

We have a Dobermann in the little group that I train with, and I hope he does real well. He has already come a long way from the first time I saw him.

I would love to see people take Don T's approach to breeding these dogs. I still doubt that the lines would not extinguish themselves, but how else would you do it ???


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

WOW!!!! Crappy videos. I too believe if the training were better, the dogs wouldn't look as bad as they do. It appears they missed the confidence building and targeting portion and the dogs look as though they'd be better at schutzhund sport if properly trained. Judging from those videos, PP is NOT their strong point.:-& 

I know of one or two people that owned dobermanns back in the day (60's-70's) and they remember it used to be a one handler dog. It would not allow ANY ONE else in the family to bother with it. It was a fearless biting machine with a GREAT deal of social aggression and GREAT nerve. That was before my time and I am so sorry I missed it. :-({|= 

They were talking about the dobermann on Dogs 101 (Animal Planet) on an episode and one of the commentators remarked that it took about 15-30yrs for dobermann breeders to breed out of them the characters that originally made them dobermanns. That offends me greatly because I would've owned one without question if they still possessed those qualities today. I don't see the dobie making a comeback, but I would love for someone to prove me wrong.


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## Burly Soldier (Jun 3, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> Thanks for your comments about my website and our dogs. I owned a nice Dobermann bitch out of Agir Miss Jakoso SchH 3 IPO 3 (Butch Henderson) and Hillary Cerny Trun SchH 3 IPO 3 (Liz Akenhead at Von Rubenhof) This was an "A" litter puppy named Austin Von Rubenhof. She was actually a very nice Dobermann bitch. But the problem was this, even though she was a very nice Dobermann, I found myself always saying "she is very nice for a Dobermann", instead of just saying "she is a very nice dog". She actually worked very well in the bite work on a suit, a sleeve, in hidden equipment and in a muzzle, she was a very serious dog, her obedience was super, but she could not track a big mac with legs. Her nerves were a little thinner than I would have liked.
> Overall she was a very nice Dobermann. I have not seen many Dobermann females as nice as her.
> That "A" litter from Rubenhof was honestly a very nice litter in general.
> Since then I have not seen many litters produce very consistantly and have not seen many good Dobermanns really. I find myself comparing the Dobermanns I see to that litter and to the parents of that litter and most of them just dont compare.
> ...


Actually there were over 700 of them. They landed on the island of Guam alongside your fellow Marines. They accounted for over 330 direct japanese fatalities and saved hundreds if not thousands of lives total at Guam alone. The breed got watered down in the 70's and 80's, simple as that. The doberman is the only dog purely bred with the intention of protecting it's master. 
Semper Fidelis- Always Faithful


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Zakia Days said:


> They were talking about the dobermann on Dogs 101 (Animal Planet) on an episode and one of the commentators remarked that it took about 15-30yrs for dobermann breeders to breed out of them the characters that originally made them dobermanns. That offends me greatly because I would've owned one without question if they still possessed those qualities today. I don't see the dobie making a comeback, but I would love for someone to prove me wrong.


15-30 yrs ago, exactly and you own 1 decent one? Should we really keep our hopes up based on that? I don't even like what they look like anymore, no substance, they look fragile and the ones I know seem to be. Always some nerve or health issue holding them back but people want to keep blaming training/trainers for their dogs failure. =; It must be that only Dobes are subseptible to crappy training then huh? I think to be fair we all have to use our thinking caps when we take our dogs to someone, regardless of breed. Honestly if you wanna play that game, we can still say the breed is doomed because the owners appear stupid in their choices of training/trainers, so how can the breed have a chance, when these are the people putting 2 dogs together, to make a litter?


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## Erica Boling (Jun 17, 2008)

Burly Soldier said:


> Actually there were over 700 of them. They landed on the island of Guam alongside your fellow Marines. They accounted for over 330 direct japanese fatalities and saved hundreds if not thousands of lives total at Guam alone. The breed got watered down in the 70's and 80's, simple as that. The doberman is the only dog purely bred with the intention of protecting it's master.
> Semper Fidelis- Always Faithful


Thank you, Burly. Hats off to all of our military dogs, past, present, and future. I was first introduced to Dobermans through show bloodlines. Once I decided to do more than just have them as a pet, the sad reality of what's happening to the breed really began to set in.... Issues related to lack of nerve and lack of drive have been some of my greatest frustrations. As far as health goes, I've been lucky. So far my Dobes' health problems have been minimal. I do love the regal look of the Doberman, but some of these current show bloodlines look more like Greyhounds!


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## Burly Soldier (Jun 3, 2009)

Erica Boling said:


> Thank you, Burly. Hats off to all of our military dogs, past, present, and future. I was first introduced to Dobermans through show bloodlines. Once I decided to do more than just have them as a pet, the sad reality of what's happening to the breed really began to set in.... Issues related to lack of nerve and lack of drive have been some of my greatest frustrations. As far as health goes, I've been lucky. So far my Dobes' health problems have been minimal. I do love the regal look of the Doberman, but some of these current show bloodlines look more like Greyhounds!


Agree with you 100% which is why I can not understand the love affair people have with show dogs. Most of the European dobes go over 100lbs easily (far outweighing the AKC allowed weight), are much more muscular, fuller blockier heads etc. I think of the two as vastly different. The european doberman shows for example require ALL adult dogs to pass a ZTP "courage" test consisting of full bitework before they can even show them. Can not say the same about the AKC, sadly and this is where the watering down came from. The average american doesn't know schutzhund, ztp, ipo etc. They hear akc registered, akc champ etc and thats all they know. These dogs, many of which had known health problems were basically encouraged to breed and thats where we are. 
For those of you in the NY area the European Sieger show is this weekend in Syosset, Long Island. Come out Saturday to see the ZTP. These are all 100% working dogs. Might surprise you as this should be some of the best examples of the breed you could find.


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## Erynn Lucas (Dec 10, 2008)

Burly Soldier said:


> Agree with you 100% which is why I can not understand the love affair people have with show dogs. Most of the European dobes go over 100lbs easily (far outweighing the AKC allowed weight), are much more muscular, fuller blockier heads etc. I think of the two as vastly different. The european doberman shows for example require ALL adult dogs to pass a ZTP "courage" test consisting of full bitework before they can even show them. Can not say the same about the AKC, sadly and this is where the watering down came from. The average american doesn't know schutzhund, ztp, ipo etc. They hear akc registered, akc champ etc and thats all they know. These dogs, many of which had known health problems were basically encouraged to breed and thats where we are.
> For those of you in the NY area the European Sieger show is this weekend in Syosset, Long Island. Come out Saturday to see the ZTP. These are all 100% working dogs. Might surprise you as this should be some of the best examples of the breed you could find.


I am calling this a bit of unintended BS. There is a HUGE!!!!! difference between Euro show and work line, just as in the GSD. The show this weekend will have lots of Euros, but not many Euro working line dogs.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Can you please try to video the ZTP for us from this upcoming event this weekend? I have seen many ZTPs and even was asked to do the decoy work for a ZTP a few years ago. After the first two dogs I was ask to "not try to scare the dogs"!!


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## Lori Longardino (Apr 4, 2009)

Mike, we are pretty sure we are going. So no prob. It is only about 20 mins. away.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

It would be great to get video of this event so that everyone can see what the Dobermann ZTP is really about.
By the way, how is your new puppy doing? I hope you like her.


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## Lori Longardino (Apr 4, 2009)

She is comming along very nice. We like her. A little thick headed one tracked mind. VERY good enviremental nerves. So far we don't see anything lacking in her. She is little too smart for her own good. She tries to out think us alot. Thanks for asking.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Here's some ZTPs from Germany:

http://www.von-monte-christo.de/nastyvideo.htm

http://de.truveo.com/Udans-ZTP/id/511725231

This one just shows the Schutzdienst part and also in slow motion.

http://www.dvsw.net/http://www.dvsw.net/

I remember going to a temperament test at the local Dobermann Club a good few years back and it was similar to that of the Rottweilers. 

The "Vereinsamung" (Isolation test?) where the dog is tied to a tree was carried out by someone who threatened the dog not as it is done now.

Both Rottweiler and Dobermann clubs stopped the threatening a while back.


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## Amy Swaby (Jul 16, 2008)

LOL wth? in that first video the decoy just sort of stands there and doesn't do much at all and instead of a proper out it looks like the woman or whatever steps forward and...shoos the dog off? I bet one good scream and that dog would turn tail and run.


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## Erynn Lucas (Dec 10, 2008)

Amy Swaby said:


> LOL wth? in that first video the decoy just sort of stands there and doesn't do much at all and instead of a proper out it looks like the woman or whatever steps forward and...shoos the dog off? I bet one good scream and that dog would turn tail and run.


Agreed. I did post a video of a good Doberman (not to steal Steve's post on Silence) at a national trial. Nobody seems to want to comment on that one though . I know I love watching a train wreck as much as the next person, but please watch the other side too.


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## Amy Swaby (Jul 16, 2008)

Oh hey trust me I watched the other one to. I know what it's like to have to fight against the just get a mal or gsd comments as rotties are my one true love lol. so I have nothing against the "other" working breeds.


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## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

Christopher Jones said:


> http://www.nydobermans.com/videos
> Wow :-o


Excuse me while I vomit.


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

I saw that video a week or two back on the Dobermann forum. Pretty crappy all the way around. 

I found this thread to be pretty interesting with a lot of valid points. I find even the venomous anti-Dobermann posts to have some validity to them.

I agree that many Doberman people I have met are weird. In training and in life in general many of the dogs are babied to a nauseating level. This is a breed in North America that a lot of show people got a hold of and took to a terrible level, probably causing permanent damage at least to North American lines. 

In Europe, with show line Dobermann's it is real hit or miss. I have a bitch that came from Euro show/working lines. She has pretty solid temperament and a high level of hardness. I read the post that Jeff made in the other thread. Some of that does fit her. It's like at times (not all the time) when she gets a full head of steam, she kind of ditzes out. This is evident in running past the dumbell in a retrieve (though I think this comes from lack of purpose and was partly due to a few holes in my training approach) as well as in blind searches, where she will run past the blind, and then go "hey there's a guy in there, I think I am supposed to do something to him". Fortunately this has not really transpired in fly by's on long bites. She also has very high prey drive, so part of that may be getting locked in prey a bit and a little difficulty switching over to fight drive. We have been able to train around that but it is an issue that I am well aware of. 

This also answers the question why I disagreed with Jeff on the issue of the need for training and trialing with brood bitches (he did not see the necessity). In the other thread, I answered "because of the nerve issues with a Dobermann we really need to know what they are made of before breeding". Now due to the training and being in a hardcore GSD club, where no dog or handler would last if they could not handle pressure (Lance Collins definitely knows how to put pressure both on dogs and handlers), I know what she has and what she lacks. Unlike many Doberman people I am in a situation where I do not have and nobody would let me have rose-colored glasses. Because of this I looked long and hard to find an appropriate dog that could provide what she lacks. I felt after consulting with a few people more knowledgable than me that I needed a dog, that brought some natural aggression. After consulting with some working line Dobermann people in Germany, the dog I chose was Calle v.d. Burgstatte.

http://www.dv-kaunitz.de/Deckruden/Calle_v__d_Burgstatte/calle_v__d_burgstatte.html

Unfortunately the breeding did not take. It was interesting to go to the Dobermann club in Kaunitz, Germany and see some good dogs. They do exist. It was also interesting to see them work Calle. He has basically been retired as a working dog because he is not always the "most cooperative dog". I am not completely sure if it was for my benefit or his when the helper grabbed a shovel before going into the blind. 

I did not have the resources to travel to Germany on the last breeding so bred to Ascomannis Iro, that was here in the states from pure working lines. He was chosen especially since the primary lineage in the dog was Bayern, which has a tendency to have a level of natural aggression in the dogs. This breeding was successful and pretty much every puppy seems to have potential with good drive and nerve. The one I kept is pretty powerful at 7 months. 

In terms of some of the other points brought up. Hara (my Dobie bitch) has passed 5 consecutive Sch3 trials. I am not aware of any Dobermann bitches currently active who have this many Sch3 titles. Of these trials, one of them was at a GSD regional trial. At two club level trials she was HIT and High Sch3, and the only non-GSD or Mali entered. So she is capable of working. Sure she has some liabilities, her main one being her handler (me). I have only been in one trial where there was another Dobie entered, so the point about Dobie people going outside of their breed is a point well taken, but not the case here. The GSD people at my club, encourage me to enter her in a National Dobie event, but I do not have the resources at the moment to travel and trial, so we will have to settle for the GSSCC (Canadian Championships) and perhaps the Pacific Northwest Regional USA trial where it is highly likely there will be no other Dobermanns entered. 

There are a few good Dobie breeders here. Wustensturm (John and Tammy Kowalczyk) and Landgraaf (Wendy Schmidt) are two that immediately come to mind. I am trying my best in my breedings, and do think my bitch has something to offer the breed. As a mother she was rock solid and seems to have produced very well.


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## Ian Forbes (Oct 13, 2006)

Erynn Lucas said:


> Here is an example of a real working GSD police dog. Lol, that is funny!
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQpu9UoXCeM&feature=related


It is a funny video, but I guess what you did not know is that that particular dog has gone on to be a very succesful police dog, with many succesful apprehensions to his name.

A dog being confused on his first 'live' deployment is a training issue. Weak nerves can't be trained out......


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: This also answers the question why I disagreed with Jeff on the issue of the need for training and trialing with brood bitches (he did not see the necessity)

Still don't. Are her pups any better because she was trained ?? I am not saying if you own a bitch, and just a bitch, not to go out and have a great time. However, there was alway a good possibility that she would not have produced, and training wouldn't have meant anything on that one either.

I am just saying, and to each their own, but the ONLY way to figure out if she will produce well is to breed her. Breeding to a dog that needs a shovel in the blind should be the norm.

She very well could have produced nothing. Gotta do the breeding first. : ) Sorry the first breeding did not take.


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: This also answers the question why I disagreed with Jeff on the issue of the need for training and trialing with brood bitches (he did not see the necessity)
> 
> Still don't. Are her pups any better because she was trained ?? I am not saying if you own a bitch, and just a bitch, not to go out and have a great time. However, there was alway a good possibility that she would not have produced, and training wouldn't have meant anything on that one either.
> 
> ...


Just saying that without training and without pressure I would not know what she brings and what she lacks to match in breeding. Yeah, it would have been interesting to see what the first breeding would have brought.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

You need to try again.


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

Can't afford to go to Germany again in December. As it is, I am trying to figure a way to afford to travel to Germany with our dog club in October, to go to the WUSV and to Jurgen Ritzi's club in Tengen. I will be breeding to Bruno v. Wustensturm who is a similar dog to Calle. That way John can also bring Bruno to me, and likely a pup from another breeding of a dog from his kennel to Calle in Germany.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

What about AI ??


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## Erynn Lucas (Dec 10, 2008)

Steve Burger said:


> Can't afford to go to Germany again in December. As it is, I am trying to figure a way to afford to travel to Germany with our dog club in October, to go to the WUSV and to Jurgen Ritzi's club in Tengen. I will be breeding to Bruno v. Wustensturm who is a similar dog to Calle. That way John can also bring Bruno to me, and likely a pup from another breeding of a dog from his kennel to Calle in Germany.


I think that will make 2 Bruno litters that I hope to see some pups from in my area. Good luck Steve.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Ian Forbes said:


> It is a funny video, but I guess what you did not know is that that particular dog has gone on to be a very succesful police dog, with many succesful apprehensions to his name.
> 
> A dog being confused on his first 'live' deployment is a training issue. Weak nerves can't be trained out......


 
I for one, did not know that, Ian and I'm glad to hear the dog went on to be successful, and I certainly understand training issues, but to tell you the truth, I will always appreciate this video, it makes me laugh every time I see it, it's priceless.


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## Andy Larrimore (Jan 8, 2008)

Not impressed with any of the videos. I wouldn't count on these dogs to bite in a real situation ever!


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> What about AI ??


The Dobermann Verein (DV) has, what is IMO, an incomprehensible and incredibly stupid policy forbidding AI breeding. Therefore most Germans will not risk sending out semen. In light of the severe health issues in the breed I find this absolutely ridiculous. Here is a way where dogs with known longevity (not to mention good working ability) could be used to strenthen the breed, but instead people do not have this option.


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## Ian Forbes (Oct 13, 2006)

Steve Burger said:


> *The Dobermann Verein (DV) has, what is IMO, an incomprehensible and incredibly stupid policy forbidding AI breeding*. Therefore most Germans will not risk sending out semen. In light of the severe health issues in the breed I find this absolutely ridiculous. Here is a way where dogs with known longevity (not to mention good working ability) could be used to strenthen the breed, but instead people do not have this option.


The ADRK (German Rottweiler Club) has the same policy. :-s


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I wonder if the Dobe club would let someone apply for a grant so you could do that. ( really reaching ) lol

This is the kind of thing that needs to be set up. I am not a logistics guy, I am an idea guy.

This fall I hope to create a club for all the different sports that are training with me (us) Unfortunately, I think that the "money" is gonna chase off most of them.

Texans are cheap as ****.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I am not a logistics guy, I am an idea guy. ...



- snort -


:lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I wonder if the Dobe club would let someone apply for a grant so you could do that. ( really reaching ) lol
> 
> .


Some stud owners are doing it anyway, but in this particular case the stud owner first asked the DV. Silly guy. He obviously does not live by the same motto I do, "it is easier to get forgiveness than permission". As it is I am very happy with the puppies from the combination I did. Ascomannis is a good kennel. The top half of the pedigree of Ascomannis Iro, is all Bayern, which added what I needed.


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