# nerve testing of puppy



## Michael Murphy

serious question here. 

how to test a puppies nerves? here i am talking about a maximum of 8 weeks more likely 7 weeks of age.

i have looked through the forum and other places , there are a few different tests and what to look for but no start to finish test for nerves. im assuming the order of the tests , the age of the puppy when test is done 5 ,6,7 weeks is important but this is not usually or accurately mentioned. 

also there a varying views or incomplete accounts of the different reactions that puppies display, everything from tucking tail, running away, flinching then recovering, investigating straight away, running towards loud object while barking, hesitation of new surfaces......

also when the test is applied there is a range of scores that can be given. for example of say 0 to 10 , and say above 5 is a pass mark but this would be a high risk pup and it could go either way etc, what is the benchmark/standard expectations for a pup that is expected to be a high level working candidate eg say a dual purpose mwd.

also if possible i would like to know a test that can be applied if you have access to puppies at 5 ,6 and 7 weeks 
or a test that can be applied once of at say 7 weeks?

kind regards michael 

ps videos would help loads :grin:


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## Michael Murphy

"also there a varying views or incomplete accounts of the different reactions that puppies display, everything from tucking tail, running away, flinching then recovering,* investigating straight away, running towards loud object while barking*, hesitation of new surfaces......"

i forgot to explain the paragraph, so some people say the puppy should be curious and run right up to the loud noise and that holding ground or going towards object barking is still a sign of nerves, some other people disagree.."
so im curious about peoples experiences on the different reactions they have witnessed and what they mean?


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## Alice Bezemer

Before you move on with this topic, Michael...

Realise that testing will only go as far as showing you the pup in a litter and surroundings natural to the pup since it grew up there. It is not a guarantee for a good pup or not since the most important test a pup has to go through it the one where it goes home with the owner and grows up to become what it is due to what the owner does with it, or doesn't do for that matter...

Testing a pup only gets you so far... it will not tell you what it will become, that is up to the one holding the leash.


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## Michael Murphy

agreed!

but what must a pup have before you even take it on to train. in terms of nerves here. do you have any tricks of the trade that you have picked up in your 25 years. i assume you have you own patented way of testing 7 week old puppies? no sarcasim intended


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## Dave Colborn

What are you studying in school, Michael? Just curious



Michael Murphy said:


> agreed!
> 
> but what must a pup have before you even take it on to train. in terms of nerves here. do you have any tricks of the trade that you have picked up in your 25 years. i assume you have you own patented way of testing 7 week old puppies? no sarcasim intended


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## Alice Bezemer

Michael Murphy said:


> agreed!
> 
> but what must a pup have before you even take it on to train. in terms of nerves here. do you have any tricks of the trade that you have picked up in your 25 years. i assume you have you own patented way of testing 7 week old puppies? no sarcasim intended


Only requirement that pups must have is 4 legs a front and a back end...breathing would be prefered 

all kidding aside tho?

I have no tricks of the trade at all. I havent tested a pup in my life and never will test one because for me its a useless waste of time. I go visit the litter, pick the one with the biggest head and strongest build, check it's bellybutton to make sure its not herniated and make sure it has a set of tiny balls in place where they should be, thats all the testing I do. Put it in the car and go home after that. 

I have to be honest tho, I stay away from the Yappy pups because I hate yappy pups in my kennel. I guess I always pick the more laid back pups in the litter, the ones that just can't be bothered to move or get to exited when a new face shows up... for lack of a better word, the unflapable one that just doesn't seem to give **** all either way.


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## Christopher Smith

I take the pup for a walk in an area unfamiliar to the puppy. I don't look at one particular thing but the dog's overall demeanor.


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## Michael Murphy

Dave Colborn said:


> What are you studying in school, Michael? Just curious


bachelor of commerce/economics, majors in finance, accounting and business law


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## Michael Murphy

Alice Bezemer said:


> Only requirement that pups must have is 4 legs a front and a back end...breathing would be prefered
> 
> all kidding aside tho?
> 
> I have no tricks of the trade at all. I havent tested a pup in my life and never will test one because for me its a useless waste of time. I go visit the litter, pick the one with the biggest head and strongest build, check it's bellybutton to make sure its not herniated and make sure it has a set of tiny balls in place where they should be, thats all the testing I do. Put it in the car and go home after that.
> 
> I have to be honest tho, I stay away from the Yappy pups because I hate yappy pups in my kennel. I guess I always pick the more laid back pups in the litter, the ones that just can't be bothered to move or get to exited when a new face shows up... for lack of a better word, the unflapable one that just doesn't seem to give **** all either way.


your either a very good trainer, have a very good breeder or are a liar ...
ill go with the first two ;-)


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## Michael Murphy

Christopher Smith said:


> I take the pup for a walk in an area unfamiliar to the puppy. I don't look at one particular thing but the dog's overall demeanor.


don't crack no wipe, don't drop a large steel pot, don't let of a shotgun round  , no bottle fool of marbles, no testing on different surfaces?


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## Khoi Pham

I make sure the pup can do this https://vimeo.com/13869509 before I take him home.


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## Alice Bezemer

Michael Murphy said:


> your either a very good trainer, have a very good breeder or are a liar ...
> ill go with the first two ;-)


Non of the above.... I am just not stupid enough to expect that what I see in a litter a guarantee for what it will become in the future. That all depends on what I do with it. 

In fact I do not fully train dogs anymore, my husband trains them, I do the small work that doesn't require muscle... Health reasons prevent me from fully training dogs these days.


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## Michael Murphy

Khoi Pham said:


> I make sure the pup can do this https://vimeo.com/13869509 before I take him home.



nerve testing!!!!!!!!!! not drive testing. show me what the pups like when not in drive ?


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## Khoi Pham

sorry don't have any video of that.


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## jamie lind

Find a breeder that can show you examples of what they have produced. Tell them what you want to do with it. Take the pup that the breeder gives you.


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## Christopher Smith

Michael Murphy said:


> don't crack no wipe, don't drop a large steel pot, don't let of a shotgun round  , no bottle fool of marbles, no testing on different surfaces?


Only if those things happen on the walk. When we walk across manhole covers, past the homeless guy with his shopping cart full of cans and go through the mall parking lot I'll see plenty.


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## mike suttle

I simply go on a short walk with the litter, I look for a bold confident puppy who is social and outgoing.


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## Gillian Schuler

I rely on the breeder's opinion of the pups in the litter. I once visited my elder GSD at 7 weeks. My friend came with me with his adult GSD and "my" pup ignored the dog, sitting still and viewing the scenery

The breeder's partner said that was often the case at 6-7 weeks, that pups ignore things that they later may take in their stead or be frightened of.

I search out the breeder - look what sort of pups he breeds and from what parentage, etc. - also look what sort of handlers buy them (most important if they are successful in sport or if they choose them for police work). 

I must say that the Briard I chose that I could visit each day and watch his development was the best pup (maybe not breed) but from outgoing character to sports achievements. The Briard people are not so very interested in furthering the breed in sport.


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## will fernandez

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwNU5F-JhyY

This is a pretty good puppy test given at 10 weeks. I know of two programs that use something similar...


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## Matt Vandart

That puppy is so cool.


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## Ricky Mav

will fernandez said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwNU5F-JhyY
> 
> This is a pretty good puppy test given at 10 weeks. I know of two programs that use something similar...


That's a nice test and a very nice puppy. Thanks for posting this.


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## Ben Thompson

THe last litter I bought a pup from they had two males and 5 females. I wanted a male so she put them both out of the kennel. One hid behind the breeder the other came right up to me thats the one I picked. But honestly they all seemed about the same once they were out of the kennel.


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## Maureen A Osborn

Basically take them to unfamiliar surroundings and see how they react....solo though, no littermates or familiar people or dogs around. I watch how they interact with their littermates to try to determine who is the alpha, etc, etc. Watch how they interact with an adult dog. How they interact with a strange person, how they react to them, etc.


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## Joby Becker

Michael, just to let you know, nerves sometimes also appear to be good as small pup, but then issues can crop up later..so it can always go either way...whether you give the pup a score of 5 or 10...

best chances are to get a pup from parents with strong nerves, that come from families of dogs with strong nerves.

do you have a plan to test the parents nerves? or are you going to trust the breeder for that?


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Joby, can you define what nerves you are talking about and how they appear one way as puppies only to be another as an adult?

T


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## Martin Koops

Years ago I asked a breeder if I could come and watch the Parents of a litter I was interested in during training, "Yeah Sure", am still waiting for the call!


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## Michael Murphy

Joby Becker said:


> Michael, just to let you know, nerves sometimes also appear to be good as small pup, but then issues can crop up later..so it can always go either way...whether you give the pup a score of 5 or 10...
> 
> best chances are to get a pup from parents with strong nerves, that come from families of dogs with strong nerves.
> 
> do you have a plan to test the parents nerves? or are you going to trust the breeder for that?


with my next pup ill be trusting the breeder with the parents (although both famous and very strong pedigree anyways) and the testing of the pup . but i still want to test anyway and learn . i want to test and go have a look at some other litters even if im not buying as well. i dont want to always rely on others :? . and i don't see why one day i can't be an excellent judge myself..


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## Nicole Stark

Michael, I was wondering something. Imagine that you have a litter of puppies before you and with all thoughts of "testing" aside, what qualities would a puppy that's ideal to/for you show? I mean, I am interested in knowing what you think you'd like to see.

The last two dogs I got are basically the same now as they were when I first saw my initial glimpses of them at 5 wks. The primary difference being that the things that I saw and desired in them then are simply more pronounced now. 

I didn't have either in front of me to know which puppy I wanted. I spent time educating myself on what the lines were known to produce, I considered my needs and goals and spoke honestly about the qualities that were important to me, and I put some time into getting to know the breeder while also learning about the individual dogs they had. When the puppies arrived I waited until they started developing and from the descriptions of the pups, pictures, video, and naturally with the breeders guidance I made my choice. 

These two, while very different from one another, are some of the best dogs I've ever owned. Puppy selection is largely a practical process and if you let go of what you think you should be doing and just go with what feels right I believe you will find yourself with the dog you desire. Keeping in mind of course that there are certain red flags which you should become well acquainted with. Otherwise, good luck to you.

On a separate note: Will, thanks for reposting that video. I enjoyed it the first time it was posted here and liked it just as much the second time around.


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## Ralph Tough

Michael Murphy said:


> with my next pup ill be trusting the breeder with the parents (although both famous and very strong pedigree anyways) and the testing of the pup . but i still want to test anyway and learn . i want to test and go have a look at some other litters even if im not buying as well. i dont want to always rely on others :? . and i don't see why one day i can't be an excellent judge myself..


 
Michael, some pups may lack the traits that you are looking for but make up with other favourable traits. So in reality all living creature/individuals in this world have some type of issues! That does not mean they are not good just different, like chalk and cheese they have their place. P.s. I have 2 social puppies that I have kept for myself you can come and test them if you wish.


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## rick smith

re: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwNU5F-JhyY
sorry, but the explanations were not in my language....

so can someone explain a few details of this test ?
- what exactly is being evaluated, and what would be the plusses and minuses that an evaluator would be taking note of ?

i've seen a lot of similar clips playing with pups using balls and rags, etc., but not the plastic sheet ...
what my (uneducated) eye saw :
- social confident curious pup
- normal prey drive for a working pup
- desire to grip also seemed normal w/ slight growling
- possessive but not over the top
- some hunt drive to look for the ball and rag after it was removed 

* would this pup be rated as normal or above normal; nerve wise ?

specific questions :
1. why the small room ? to see if the pup will get nervous and anxious to leave rather than settle/interact and play ? in regards to using a small room, obviously a pup that would shriek and freak and want out would not be showing much confidence, but how do you judge after that ?
- personally i would think a small, fairly "boring" room would tend to make a pup want to interact with the guy on the chair more, since there are probably less distractions than in an outdoor environment and the pup is kept in a closer vicinity to the guy, with no options to wander off
2. is the order (ball, rag, than plastic) of items supposed to be an increasing challenge for the pup's nerves ?
3. not sure, but seemed like there were three people in there. i was kinda surprised the pup didn't seem to notice the guys on the table much at all. is that significant of anything, nerve wise ?

i'm not trying to downplay this test, just trying to get an explanation of how it is run and what it tests specific to puppy nerves by those who use it. what is obvious to some is not always as obvious to others who aren't familiar with the test procedures .... like me 
TIA


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## Michael Murphy

Nicole Stark said:


> Michael, I was wondering something. Imagine that you have a litter of puppies before you and with all thoughts of "testing" aside, what qualities would a puppy that's ideal to/for you show? I mean, I am interested in knowing what you think you'd like to see.
> 
> The last two dogs I got are basically the same now as they were when I first saw my initial glimpses of them at 5 wks. The primary difference being that the things that I saw and desired in them then are simply more pronounced now.
> 
> I didn't have either in front of me to know which puppy I wanted. I spent time educating myself on what the lines were known to produce, I considered my needs and goals and spoke honestly about the qualities that were important to me, and I put some time into getting to know the breeder while also learning about the individual dogs they had. When the puppies arrived I waited until they started developing and from the descriptions of the pups, pictures, video, and naturally with the breeders guidance I made my choice.
> 
> These two, while very different from one another, are some of the best dogs I've ever owned. Puppy selection is largely a practical process and if you let go of what you think you should be doing and just go with what feels right I believe you will find yourself with the dog you desire. Keeping in mind of course that there are certain red flags which you should become well acquainted with. Otherwise, good luck to you.
> 
> On a separate note: Will, thanks for reposting that video. I enjoyed it the first time it was posted here and liked it just as much the second time around.


Nicole , i find 5 weeks very intererting. from some litters i have seen and especially the litter my dog was from, at 5 weeks there was huge inconsistency in prey drive and nerves. i have also found that the personality as an adult was very reflective of what the dog was at 5 weeks. at first i thought it could be something i just noticed because everyone talks about testing at 7 weeks ( by that time the pups seem a lot more consistent) but then i saw mike suttle on one post saying he looks for nerves at 5 weeks and now you are also saying the same thing. i have a little theory right now and want to explore it further, but i believe 5 weeks may be a very critical point in time in looking at the pups expecially for nerves and grip. i want to be able to pick a good dog as a pup consistently, and i think 7 weeks may be very misleading on its own, 5 weeks seems to be critical......

in regards to you first paragraph, in a pup i want social and outgoing, confident and curious, strong nerves , i don't like any sound sensitivity or surface disrimination ( i would set up a little obstacle course if possible) and prey drive / grip , is very important to me. these things i will never again negotiate on with a pup. for me it must have all these things if i am going to buy. i look at the pedigree to tell me what i may recieve at maturity. its a combination of both when choosing a pup (all other things including training considerd ofcourse) . But like i said above at 5 weeks those tests for the above traits, especially in my gsd's litter gave very varying results (big inconsistency in the litter) but at 7 weeks they seemed much more consistent , as in past those tests or no red flags apparent. the litter is now almost two years old, and they ALL seem to be what they were at 5 weeks from what i was told. chris jones's friend has the litter mate to my dog, at 5 weeks i picked him but was told to go with another pup from experienced individuals who tested at 7 weeks ( i was the only person to test at 5 ,6 and 7 weeks out of all the purchasers) that pup ended up being the best dog.


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## Joby Becker

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Joby, can you define what nerves you are talking about and how they appear one way as puppies only to be another as an adult?
> 
> T


all I can say is that I have seen plenty of puppies that look real nice, that then fell apart.


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## mike suttle

Michael Murphy said:


> Nicole , i find 5 weeks very intererting. from some litters i have seen and especially the litter my dog was from, at 5 weeks there was huge inconsistency in prey drive and nerves. i have also found that the personality as an adult was very reflective of what the dog was at 5 weeks. at first i thought it could be something i just noticed because everyone talks about testing at 7 weeks ( by that time the pups seem a lot more consistent) but then i saw mike suttle on one post saying he looks for nerves at 5 weeks and now you are also saying the same thing. i have a little theory right now and want to explore it further, but i believe 5 weeks may be a very critical point in time in looking at the pups expecially for nerves and grip. i want to be able to pick a good dog as a pup consistently, and i think 7 weeks may be very misleading on its own, 5 weeks seems to be critical......
> 
> in regards to you first paragraph, in a pup i want social and outgoing, confident and curious, strong nerves , i don't like any sound sensitivity or surface disrimination ( i would set up a little obstacle course if possible) and prey drive / grip , is very important to me. these things i will never again negotiate on with a pup. for me it must have all these things if i am going to buy. i look at the pedigree to tell me what i may recieve at maturity. its a combination of both when choosing a pup (all other things including training considerd ofcourse) . But like i said above at 5 weeks those tests for the above traits, especially in my gsd's litter gave very varying results (big inconsistency in the litter) but at 7 weeks they seemed much more consistent , as in past those tests or no red flags apparent. the litter is now almost two years old, and they ALL seem to be what they were at 5 weeks from what i was told. chris jones's friend has the litter mate to my dog, at 5 weeks i picked him but was told to go with another pup from experienced individuals who tested at 7 weeks ( i was the only person to test at 5 ,6 and 7 weeks out of all the purchasers) that pup ended up being the best dog.


 So you wouldn't buy a pup that showed no prey drive at 5 weeks?


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## Michael Murphy

mike suttle said:


> So you wouldn't buy a pup that showed no prey drive at 5 weeks?


not necessarily but i would prefer if they showed it. however if saw an obvious indication or actually any indication of weak nerves at 5 weeks i would not buy, not matter how it looked at 7 weeks.


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## mike suttle

Michael Murphy said:


> not necessarily but i would prefer if they showed it. however if saw an obvious indication or actually any indication of weak nerves at 5 weeks i would not buy, not matter how it looked at 7 weeks.


Interesting


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## Joby Becker

mike suttle said he evaluates nerves at 5 weeks when looking for puppies?

is that an accurate statement Mike?


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## Christopher Jones

To be honest the best way to pick a pup isnt some test at a certain age. The best way is to have the litter under your roof and to observe them throughout the 4-8 week period. I watch for the one who is the most consistant throughout that time. And then you still wont know which one will be the best until they are 18 months.


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## will fernandez

Test is for nerves and hunt drive...

Here is their explanation

To test the Norwegian People's Aid GTC minehunsenter my puppies: - We test the puppy handles new environment smoothly and if it has a lot of hunting. We see in particular by:
• How to handle your puppy a new environment (it is the first time the puppy is in the room)
• How pup contact with a stranger (the tester has not had contact with the puppy before test)
• Degree of motivation to play with a familiar toy (learn rag)
• Degree of motivation to play with an unfamiliar toy (garbage bag and ball)
• Hunting operation: Will the puppy look for the toy when it disappears?
• Handling will let himself be put on the back? Getting the panic? Is it quiet?

We are looking for about puppy even take the initiative to contact the tester, so we are completely passive.
Is it a puppy that is scared and unsure, take the tester connector and uses voice. Then the puppy already
revealed that it has a weakness.


The observers appear to be pretty high up...when I saw the test done I was a able to observe from a different room via video feed.


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## will fernandez

Their detection dogs few years back (dont know about now) had a super super searching behavior..they searched like vacuums which led other agencies to mimic their training of that behavior for narcotics and tracking.


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## Michael Murphy

Joby Becker said:


> mike suttle said he evaluates nerves at 5 weeks when looking for puppies?
> 
> is that an accurate statement Mike?


im pretty sure it was a statement a long the lines of look at nerves around 5 weeks...


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## Michael Murphy

will fernandez said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwNU5F-JhyY
> 
> This is a pretty good puppy test given at 10 weeks. I know of two programs that use something similar...


would we expect a similar result from the pup at 7 weeks?


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## will fernandez

Michael Murphy said:


> would we expect a similar result from the pup at 7 weeks?


Don't know but I don't think so...never had a pup at seven weeks usually get mine at 10...some show me right away what they are going to be others make me wait awhile longer..


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## Michael Murphy

you get your pups at 10 weeks? what line of dogs do you get by the way ? and from where? if you don't mind me asking


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## will fernandez

Patrol dog from Henk iIedema...his replacement is a pedigree dog line bred on Lupano's Duke both as pups though my patrol dog was six months when I got him. Couple of berry II pups that were super...two boris pups now.. one is good the other is special both females.

A few other from various KNPV lines that I was curious about.


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## tracey schneider

Im not so sure 5 weeks is so critical.. although I usually have a pretty good idea by then. I think the thing at 5 wks is the puppies are now pretty mobile but still less exposed so new, truly new experiences and reactions are more untouched and natural. 

t


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## Nicole Stark

Yes, that's exactly the context in which the 5 wk reference was relevant. As Chris said it's not the age so much as is what you see before you. Someone else mentioned that as well in a different thread.

Michael, I merely meant that what I saw then (not what I was looking for at that specific age), more specifically what made those puppies different from the others is still present today just in amplified form. The breeder of my mastiff often says this of his dogs: They don't change, they just get better. This certainly was the case with both the Mastiff and the Dutch.


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## Ricky Mav

Joby Becker said:


> Michael, just to let you know, nerves sometimes also appear to be good as small pup, but then issues can crop up later..so it can always go either way...whether you give the pup a score of 5 or 10...
> 
> best chances are to get a pup from parents with strong nerves, that come from families of dogs with strong nerves.
> 
> do you have a plan to test the parents nerves? or are you going to trust the breeder for that?


Excellent points. I definitely look for a mother with good nerves and temperament, my reason is that I THINK that the puppies may tend to react like the mother. Of course having both parents with solid nerves and temperament is definitely the way to go.


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## Joby Becker

I personally think that 5 weeks is a litte young to be testing "nerves", as a person that is going to visit litter and test the puppies.

Hell if they are bigger pups, they develop slower in a few areas, and I am not even so sure if a pups nervous system is fully developed at 5 weeks of age.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

tracey delin said:


> I think the thing at 5 wks is the puppies are now pretty mobile but still less exposed so new, truly new experiences and reactions are more untouched and natural.
> 
> t


This... At 5 wks you can see the teue nature of a pup.


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## tracey schneider

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> This... At 5 wks you can see the teue nature of a pup.


Not sure I even understand your question or how it relates to my post? Why you cut off the first part of my quote? Maybe your answer is there?



> Im not so sure 5 weeks is so critical.. although I usually have a pretty good idea by then. I think the thing at 5 wks is the puppies are now pretty mobile but still less exposed so new, truly new experiences and reactions are more untouched and natural.


That could be at 8 wks, if the pup wasnt taken out of the box or had minimal exposure... but whats the point in judging a puppies nerve doing something it has been exposed to a hundred times? My point was its not the age that someone mentioned as "being critical". If I were going to see a litter, I would not be picking at 5 weeks, esp if I wasnt familiar with the dogs (family) even my own I wouldnt say for sure... but my own.. Id definitely have my eye on certain ones over others.

t


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## Nicole Stark

She was agreeing with you.

This rubbernecking on the 5 wk thing probably needs to stop. I just mean there's more to get out of this discussion than coming back to a few statements that were made about pups at that age. It is, precisely what you said. A starting point and also as Selena said telling of the true (most likely raw) nature of the pup. Everyone understands that nothing, absolutely nothing in life is ever a given.


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## tracey schneider

Nicole Stark said:


> She was agreeing with you.
> 
> This rubbernecking on the 5 wk thing probably needs to stop. I just mean there's more to get out of this discussion than coming back to a few statements that were made about pups at that age. It is, precisely what you said. A starting point and also as Selena said telling of the true (most likely raw) nature of the pup. Everyone understands that nothing, absolutely nothing in life is ever a given.


lol.... oops, I see that now.. somehow I read a question mark :-o

Disregard Selena lol... my bad... but the second part was more towards Joby


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## Nicole Stark

tracey delin said:


> lol.... oops, I see that now.. somehow I read a question mark :-o


ha ha, I think it was maybe the mispelling of true that made it look questionable/curious as to what she may have meant.


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## Joby Becker

tracey delin said:


> Disregard Selena lol... my bad... but the second part was more towards Joby


What the HELL?? why address MY post???:-o:-o:-o:-o

just kidding..

I think we agree, I think.

Of course it is great to be able to observe the pups as much as possible, if there is access, I also think the person raising the litter is the person that is going to be able to give the most information about what they think about each pup, why or why not they personally like certain things about each pup, what is better about individuals in there opinion, and what they feel is going to be a better match for whoever is getting them, based on their behaviors and character.

Michael the topic here is nerves, I think that you can surely see something at 5 weeks 6,7,8 weeks in regards to a few things, but as a buyer? how can we really test for NERVES? honestly, at 5 weeks? and if we can, why would someone? unless maybe that was the only time they were going to have access to the litter. I am not so sure "nerves", can be tested with any validity at that age.

I guess it depends on what nerves mean..lol..

I think it would be better to test at 7-8 weeks, for me, there is something to be said for pups to have all their systems fully working before testing and making a decision.

Truth is you may see things you dont like, lack of confidence, noise sensitivy/fearful reaction, less boldness. whatever it is, and that is all well and good to find out, and pass on a litter if they are skittish or unconfident, but even if the pup is confident, bold, great with noises, show good nerves, that is not any kind of real indicator if the dog is going to have the type of nerveset that one is going to need or like for whatever the job will be, like I said before, sometimes various quirks and "nerve" issues, can come on later, and it is best to chose a dog from parents and families of strong nerved dogs.

Also, if I do some sort of NERVE testing on a litter of pups, and I see a pup or two that is bad in my opinion, I personally would walk on the whole litter under most circumstances.


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## Bob Scott

With my older GSD I observed the litter at 3, 4 and five weeks old. I selected at 6 and he's always been exactly what I saw as a puppy in the litter.
My younger GSD was "selected" for two reasons. I liked both parents A LOT but he was one of only two males. I wanted a male and the breeder kept one so I didn't really have the choice of "selecting". 
He was a nice pup but I didn't do my regular testing because I wanted one from this breeding. ](*,)
I wouldn't do it again. He's a fun dog but but way to handler soft for my liking. I can crush him with my voice. 
I've never been disappointed with any pup of any breed that I've selected FOR ME but I've seen changes in dogs I've helped other's select. I believe that has a lot to do with how they are raised. 
As to nerves. When I look at a litter and I see one nervy pup in the litter I wont look any further. I learned that the hard way with two Mals. Great in drive and play but $#!+ environmentally. Didn't keep either one for long.


----------



## Michael Murphy

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> This... At 5 wks you can see the teue nature of a pup.


Yes i thought so!

to Joby, nerve testing as in small puppy tests, like little obstacle courses with different surfaces , some noise (not like a gun shot)....

at 7 or 8 weeks i don't think you can see real character anymore as they would have been introduced numerous times to many things that you may test for . and at that age socialisation and imprinting is VERY easy, covering up a lot of the flaws. but i think when the dog is mature and the dog is really put under the pump , the weak nerves will show


----------



## Joby Becker

Michael Murphy said:


> Yes i thought so!
> 
> to Joby, nerve testing as in small puppy tests, like little obstacle courses with different surfaces , some noise (not like a gun shot)....
> 
> at 7 or 8 weeks i don't think you can see real character anymore as they would have been introduced numerous times to many things that you may test for . and at that age socialisation and imprinting is VERY easy, covering up a lot of the flaws. but i think when the dog is mature and the dog is really put under the pump , the weak nerves will show


Michael, I disagree with your premise, and your conclusions.

How many litters of puppies have you tested and/or observed and tested at 5 weeks, and at 7-8 weeks personally? 

You would be surprised at how little of the stuff you are seeing in the videos on youtube that most breeders of dogs do with thier puppies overall. 

I can assure you that I have looked at many many litters of dogs, of many types of many breeds, working, non-working, and I am not basing what I am saying on theoretical ideas.


----------



## Dick van Leeuwen

You test nothing at 5 weeks you just watch them and see. With us no nono gets his hands on ä pup at our home, doing all sort of stupid stuff with our pups, because they are insecure in choosing they're pick......
If you know your dogs, line, puppybehaviour, you will know what is what by observing...... All those puppy testing is pure nonsens. If you can't see what a dog is like in his behaviour and need to test, you should invest in learning to "read" dogs better.:roll:


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Joby Becker said:


> What the HELL?? why address MY post???:-o:-o:-o:-o
> 
> just kidding..
> 
> I think we agree, I think.
> 
> Of course it is great to be able to observe the pups as much as possible, if there is access, I also think the person raising the litter is the person that is going to be able to give the most information about what they think about each pup, why or why not they personally like certain things about each pup, what is better about individuals in there opinion, and what they feel is going to be a better match for whoever is getting them, based on their behaviors and character.
> 
> Michael the topic here is nerves, I think that you can surely see something at 5 weeks 6,7,8 weeks in regards to a few things, but as a buyer? how can we really test for NERVES? honestly, at 5 weeks? and if we can, why would someone? unless maybe that was the only time they were going to have access to the litter. I am not so sure "nerves", can be tested with any validity at that age.
> 
> I guess it depends on what nerves mean..lol..
> 
> I think it would be better to test at 7-8 weeks, for me, there is something to be said for pups to have all their systems fully working before testing and making a decision.
> 
> Truth is you may see things you dont like, lack of confidence, noise sensitivy/fearful reaction, less boldness. whatever it is, and that is all well and good to find out, and pass on a litter if they are skittish or unconfident, but even if the pup is confident, bold, great with noises, show good nerves, that is not any kind of real indicator if the dog is going to have the type of nerveset that one is going to need or like for whatever the job will be, like I said before, sometimes various quirks and "nerve" issues, can come on later, and it is best to chose a dog from parents and families of strong nerved dogs.
> 
> Also, if I do some sort of NERVE testing on a litter of pups, and I see a pup or two that is bad in my opinion, I personally would walk on the whole litter under most circumstances.


What type of quirks and nerveset? Again what appeared to be fine as a pup and at what age did it fall apart?

T


----------



## Tiago Fontes

Dick van Leeuwen said:


> You test nothing at 5 weeks you just watch them and see. With us no nono gets his hands on ä pup at our home, doing all sort of stupid stuff with our pups, because they are insecure in choosing they're pick......
> If you know your dogs, line, puppybehaviour, you will know what is what by observing...... All those puppy testing is pure nonsens. If you can't see what a dog is like in his behaviour and need to test, you should invest in learning to "read" dogs better.:roll:


 
That's when you have built some prepotency...because when you go and check litters that come from consecutive outcrosses, even the breeder cannot know what is typically produced by the breeding stock. But this is a whole new conversation...


----------



## Alice Bezemer

Dick van Leeuwen said:


> You test nothing at 5 weeks you just watch them and see. With us no nono gets his hands on ä pup at our home, doing all sort of stupid stuff with our pups, because they are insecure in choosing they're pick......
> If you know your dogs, line, puppybehaviour, you will know what is what by observing...... All those puppy testing is pure nonsens. If you can't see what a dog is like in his behaviour and need to test, you should invest in learning to "read" dogs better.:roll:


+1


----------



## Joby Becker

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> What type of quirks and nerveset? Again what appeared to be fine as a pup and at what age did it fall apart?
> 
> T


T....plenty of things. lots of things, lots of different ages.

I would say it is a huge reason that many working dogs get washed, aside from lack of drive or whatever else. 

And even sometimes "a lack of drive" means not enough drive to compensate for a nerve issue of some sort, even though that is often left unsaid or maybe not even registered in someone's mind..

One thing I agree with that Rick Scott said is that nerves are not really a pass/fail thing you can test for as a puppy, sure you can test a puppy or a dog in some kind of tests, and they can pass....but that does not mean they will automatically be fine forever, doing everything and anything.

does that make more sense?

Unless the pups and/or the nerves are really really shitty, you are not going to see a problem until later on, after the normal puppy purchasing age, and it will be something that was not able to be seen as a young puppy.


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen

Tiago Fontes said:


> That's when you have built some prepotency...because when you go and check litters that come from consecutive outcrosses, even the breeder cannot know what is typically produced by the breeding stock. But this is a whole new conversation...


That goes for all pups and litters. I've picked nummerous pups from diffrent bloodlines. Í see the total litter without the mother and observing the litter you can realy see what they are about. 
All things that go wrong after picking a pup are almost always because of "unwise handling" of the new owner. ( trying to aviod the word stupid ).

I've never picked a "wrong pup". I "destroyed" about three pups in the 43 years i've been working dogs and all where because of my own faults in training. Mostly when i was younger and because of not beeing patient enough,forgetting steps in the learningstage.. 

I read all the talking about testing, testing and testing. Who tests the new owner/handler in their ability???:roll:...
I see a lot of talk passing by from people assuming they are toptrainers and topbreeders..... proven by what?

Dick


----------



## tracey schneider

Joby Becker said:


> What the HELL?? why address MY post???:-o:-o:-o:-o
> 
> just kidding..



[-X lol funny...


----------



## Ellen Piepers

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> I read all the talking about testing, testing and testing. Who tests the new owner/handler in their ability???:roll:...


Exactly what I've been thinking reading these threads. I'm pretty sure my dog is better than I am. She's a faster learner than I am. She doesn't woprry if I'm the best possible handelr or trainer or owner, she just copes with it. So the challenge lies with me :mrgreen:

Pick a pup and go for it. And learn. Don't look for guarantees, just go for it, be humble & honest to yourself and learn.

And remember that learning is painful :mrgreen:


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen

tracey delin said:


> Not sure I even understand your question or how it relates to my post? Why you cut off the first part of my quote? Maybe your answer is there?
> 
> 
> 
> That could be at 8 wks, if the pup wasnt taken out of the box or had minimal exposure... but whats the point in judging a puppies nerve doing something it has been exposed to a hundred times? My point was its not the age that someone mentioned as "being critical". If I were going to see a litter, I would not be picking at 5 weeks, esp if I wasnt familiar with the dogs (family) even my own I wouldnt say for sure... but my own.. Id definitely have my eye on certain ones over others.
> 
> t


I was simply agreeing with you. I like to observe a puppy at 5 wks, cause you can see the true /raw nature. 

Edit saw that nicole already explained what i wanted to say.


----------



## Skip Morgart

I like the Volhardt puppy aptitude tests.


----------



## rick smith

i guess if you have years of experience with your lines you can see what you have at five weeks. these people are imo the nature over nurture crowd, but they still seem to stress the nurture aspect
- but at five weeks a dog's brain is not fully developed and VERY much a blank slate, so i can't buy that completely
- if you don't happen to believe that pups have fear stages that they go thru later, i guess nothing else matters. imo these people probably don't know or care much about behavior studies done with canines, and are strictly "hands on" real world experience based. i feel safer taking both in to consideration and not dismissing the scientific side
- then there are those who think adding mild stress is good, some who think it is not good... i think it is good

not that it matters, but i don't understand the "if one pup in the litter is a nerve bag, move on" advice at all ... how well has this theory been fully tested in real life that would make it an absolute ?

overall, for me, i would simply spend more time training than testing, regardless of age
...i'm definitely a nurture type 
...and for me, this is where being able to "read dogs" comes into play ... if you can read well, you will know how much you can "add", and when, for both stress factors and pre-training in general

are pups, being the short focussed, quick to be distracted creatures they are, harder to read ??
...not sure about that either


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen

Puppies do have fear stages, no denying here. But if you see a 5 wk old puppy you can see how it will be as adult when not messd up


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Joby Becker said:


> T....plenty of things. lots of things, lots of different ages.
> 
> I would say it is a huge reason that many working dogs get washed, aside from lack of drive or whatever else.
> 
> And even sometimes "a lack of drive" means not enough drive to compensate for a nerve issue of some sort, even though that is often left unsaid or maybe not even registered in someone's mind..
> 
> One thing I agree with that Rick Scott said is that nerves are not really a pass/fail thing you can test for as a puppy, sure you can test a puppy or a dog in some kind of tests, and they can pass....but that does not mean they will automatically be fine forever, doing everything and anything.
> 
> does that make more sense?
> 
> Unless the pups and/or the nerves are really really shitty, you are not going to see a problem until later on, after the normal puppy purchasing age, and it will be something that was not able to be seen as a young puppy.


No. I want to know specifically nerve-wise what "appeared" to be fine at a young age only to not be so at a different age and what age. Since I'm one of those puppy testers and agree that certain traits are quite evident as early as 5 weeks and I've not had the "true" puppy change at all in puppyhood, I'm very interested in what you've seen.

T

T


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Puppies do have fear stages, no denying here. But if you see a 5 wk old puppy you can see how it will be as adult when not messd up


Agree and then of course you get into how you can mess one up.

T


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> That goes for all pups and litters. I've picked nummerous pups from diffrent bloodlines. Í see the total litter without the mother and observing the litter you can realy see what they are about.
> All things that go wrong after picking a pup are almost always because of "unwise handling" of the new owner. ( trying to aviod the word stupid ).
> 
> I've never picked a "wrong pup". I "destroyed" about three pups in the 43 years i've been working dogs and all where because of my own faults in training. Mostly when i was younger and because of not beeing patient enough,forgetting steps in the learningstage..
> 
> I read all the talking about testing, testing and testing. Who tests the new owner/handler in their ability???:roll:...
> I see a lot of talk passing by from people assuming they are toptrainers and topbreeders..... proven by what?
> 
> Dick


I think its semantics--test vs. observe. You take the litter away from the mother [first step] and "observe." What traits are you observing. I bet you have a list of desirable and undesirable. What do you personally do as far as introducing something into the environment to see if they have those desirable or undesirable traits?

T


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Michael Murphy said:


> Yes i thought so!
> 
> to Joby, nerve testing as in small puppy tests, like little obstacle courses with different surfaces , some noise (not like a gun shot)....
> 
> at 7 or 8 weeks i don't think you can see real character anymore as they would have been introduced numerous times to many things that you may test for . and at that age socialisation and imprinting is VERY easy, covering up a lot of the flaws. but i think when the dog is mature and the dog is really put under the pump , the weak nerves will show


You can still see real character if you are creative even with some of the most conditioned. 

T


----------



## Chip Blasiole

Try building an obstacle course using wooden pallets, elevated wooden planks a few feet off the ground, then having the plank lead into a boxed in area. Set the pallets at angles and see how the pup manages the gaps as he climbs. Walk the pup on slick, tile floors. See how he responds to going into water. Start up a lawnmower at a distance and gradually bring him closer. Drop metal feeding bowels on a concrete floor near the pup. Use an air compressor at a distance. Put the pup on the hood of a car. Have him run through tunnels/piping large enough for him to go through, but at some distance. Light a gas torch several feet away from him. Put him on a surface that swings and rocks somewhat. Take him to an airport where you can watch the planes coming in close overhead. You just have to be creative and accurately read the pup's reactions.


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## Christopher Smith

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I think its semantics--test vs. observe. You take the litter away from the mother [first step] and "observe." What traits are you observing. I bet you have a list of desirable and undesirable. What do you personally do as far as introducing something into the environment to see if they have those desirable or undesirable traits?
> 
> T


No it's not semantics. What I think Dick is saying is that you don't have to do anything other than look at the puppies. IMO, if you can't take the pup out for a short walk and see what's going on, all the testing in the world can't help you because you don't have the knowledge to understand the test results. And if you are able understand the test results you don't need to do the test.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Christopher is right, and not even take the litter away from mom, but take away mom from the litter. By putting her in a kennel or so, pups can stay in their known area.


----------



## kristin tresidder

i do like to see pups outside of their comfort zone to see how they react to unfamiliar things - but nothing extreme. for most pups, being alone, away from their littermates, on another side of the breeder's yard/house that they've never seen before is often enough to guage their reactions. 

i remember one pup i really liked out in a breeder's yard - he was gangbusters out there - charging everywhere, bossing his littermates, hanging off my pants, playing with a tennis ball, etc. when we took him inside (he had never been in the house before) alone with us, and put him down on the tile floor, he shut down. eventually he started to explore, but he never did get out of that slow, uncertain puppy crouch/crawl, tail-down mode before i left. 

i've seen other pups that were not the 'star' in the pack of puppies - maybe they got bullied by littermates etc - look much better once they were out on their own too.


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Agree and then of course you get into how you can mess one up.
> 
> T


 
That would interest me. How do you think you can mess a pup up? Either he is strong and well developed, mentally and physically or he was not so good as you thought he was. I am tired of hearing about how the handler can mess up a pup. I guess there are some sadists around but quite honestly, a strong pup should be able to get through a kinky handler who has "he-man" ambitions.


----------



## will fernandez

Gillian Schuler said:


> That would interest me. How do you think you can mess a pup up? Either he is strong and well developed, mentally and physically or he was not so good as you thought he was. I am tired of hearing about how the handler can mess up a pup. I guess there are some sadists around but quite honestly, a strong pup should be able to get through a kinky handler who has "he-man" ambitions.


Great pups are great despite the handler or the training


----------



## Gillian Schuler

will fernandez said:


> Great pups are great despite the handler or the training


Thank you Will - you have restored my faith in well bred canines.


----------



## Michael Murphy

Gillian Schuler said:


> Thank you Will - you have restored my faith in well bred canines.


great pups i dont think can be ruined. well not easily anyway. they probably just end up being like Arko kik

i think what selena is talking about are pups that are not great but not duds either, that can possible go either way. in that case a good trainer may make them a "suitable' working dog and a very bad handler can cause them to develop flaws that fail them for work.


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## will fernandez

what was so special about Arko Kikkert besides the promotion?


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Hey you guys, keep on testing... thats why you have the best...=D> ](*,)

Dick


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## will fernandez

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Hey you guys, keep on testing... thats why you have the best...=D> ](*,)
> 
> Dick


I have never tested a pup...Just took what was sent to me..or the one that caught my eye..


----------



## Matt Vandart

Michael Murphy said:


> great pups i dont think can be ruined. well not easily anyway. they probably just end up being like Arko kik
> 
> i think what selena is talking about are pups that are not great but not duds either, that can possible go either way. in that case a good trainer may make them a "suitable' working dog and a very bad handler can cause them to develop flaws that fail them for work.


These type of dogs are a pain in the ass


----------



## Alice Bezemer

Some days I look at this forum, and the posts made on it and I just want to take away all the label makers and exchange them for some common sense...

So many views and opinions, labels and theories.... I wonder if people even see the dogs through all the labeling they are doing? Oh, this pup has a floppy ear, it must be nervy, oh that dog is quick to growl, he must he a shitter, oh that dog has a funny sniffle....nervebag! People are so busy testing and what have you not, trying to weed out what they think is a bad pup or a bad dog for them and not once does it enter their mind that they themselves might be flawed in their views...

Get of the damn labelling cart already! Gheez! JMO, don't have to like it, aint going to change it!


----------



## Matt Vandart

Dunno if you are referring to my post, but I find dogs like this frustrating because they give you glimpses of genius it makes you think you should not give up on them, then other times they are just, meh ..........annoying


----------



## Maureen A Osborn

How about this for insight: there is NO perfect dog, no matter what anyone tries to sell you.....it is up to you, the owner and trainer, to decide what "flaw(s)" you are willing to work with and try to overcome/train out/exinguish.


----------



## Michael Murphy

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Hey you guys, keep on testing... thats why you have the best...=D> ](*,)
> 
> Dick


testing can be seen as learning. not all of us had the privledge of being born into a knowledgable working dog family and also marrying into one...... give us beginners some sympathy rather than being condescending =;

ps im planning on purchasing a pup from you one day


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen

Michael Murphy said:


> testing can be seen as learning. not all of us had the privledge of being born into a knowledgable working dog family and also marrying into one...... give us beginners some sympathy rather than being condescending =;
> 
> ps im planning on purchasing a pup from you one day


Partly you are right, Michael, but then people should get of their high horses and invest in learning how and what to observe, instead of hiding their insecurity in testing. When I want to test its because I don't know for sure, wich is my problem I have work on myself, wich means I've mist something in watching.

In my opinion dogpeople in general should buy more mirrors...:mrgreen:

Dick


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen

Maureen A Osborn said:


> How about this for insight: there is NO perfect dog, no matter what anyone tries to sell you.....it is up to you, the owner and trainer, to decide what "flaw(s)" you are willing to work with and try to overcome/train out/exinguish.


+1

Dick


----------



## Alice Bezemer

Maybe its time to develop test's for owners instead of dogs...

All this talk of testing and how to do it, what to test for and why all looks like a backdoor out in my eyes. Its a simple way to always lay blame with a dog or pup instead of seeking within yourself to see if you perhaps (and most probably) made mistakes somewhere down the line.

Dogs get picked apart and scrutinized, flaws layed out to examine yet no one does this with the handler. I wonder what would happen if people just picked a pup, without all this testing, and had to train it. How far would they get? Most dogs have it in them to be trained and to be worked... The grand 64.000 dollar question is tho, are you able to bring it out of him to do this work? Soft dogs can make excellent working dogs or sports dogs, hard dog can make excellent working dogs or trial dogs, inbetween dogs can make excellent trial or working dogs. The key is knowing how to bring it out of the dog. 

One thing I learned in my time in working dogs. When a dog fails to do as expected or required it is a reason for me to look at what I am doing wrong... If the dog ****s up, its most likely something I did, not something the dog did.

JMO


----------



## Ralph Tough

Alice Bezemer said:


> Maybe its time to develop test's for owners instead of dogs...
> 
> All this talk of testing and how to do it, what to test for and why all looks like a backdoor out in my eyes. Its a simple way to always lay blame with a dog or pup instead of seeking within yourself to see if you perhaps (and most probably) made mistakes somewhere down the line.
> 
> Dogs get picked apart and scrutinized, flaws layed out to examine yet no one does this with the handler. I wonder what would happen if people just picked a pup, without all this testing, and had to train it. How far would they get? Most dogs have it in them to be trained and to be worked... The grand 64.000 dollar question is tho, are you able to bring it out of him to do this work? Soft dogs can make excellent working dogs or sports dogs, hard dog can make excellent working dogs or trial dogs, inbetween dogs can make excellent trial or working dogs. The key is knowing how to bring it out of the dog.
> 
> One thing I learned in my time in working dogs. When a dog fails to do as expected or required it is a reason for me to look at what I am doing wrong... If the dog ****s up, its most likely something I did, not something the dog did.
> 
> JMO


 
Excellent Post Alice..


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen

Alice Bezemer said:


> Maybe its time to develop test's for owners instead of dogs...
> 
> All this talk of testing and how to do it, what to test for and why all looks like a backdoor out in my eyes. Its a simple way to always lay blame with a dog or pup instead of seeking within yourself to see if you perhaps (and most probably) made mistakes somewhere down the line.
> 
> Dogs get picked apart and scrutinized, flaws layed out to examine yet no one does this with the handler. I wonder what would happen if people just picked a pup, without all this testing, and had to train it. How far would they get? Most dogs have it in them to be trained and to be worked... The grand 64.000 dollar question is tho, are you able to bring it out of him to do this work? Soft dogs can make excellent working dogs or sports dogs, hard dog can make excellent working dogs or trial dogs, inbetween dogs can make excellent trial or working dogs. The key is knowing how to bring it out of the dog.
> 
> One thing I learned in my time in working dogs. When a dog fails to do as expected or required it is a reason for me to look at what I am doing wrong... If the dog ****s up, its most likely something I did, not something the dog did.
> 
> JMO


A big +1, Alice.

Dick


----------



## Michael Murphy

Alice Bezemer said:


> Maybe its time to develop test's for owners instead of dogs...
> 
> All this talk of testing and how to do it, what to test for and why all looks like a backdoor out in my eyes. Its a simple way to always lay blame with a dog or pup instead of seeking within yourself to see if you perhaps (and most probably) made mistakes somewhere down the line.
> 
> Dogs get picked apart and scrutinized, flaws layed out to examine yet no one does this with the handler. I wonder what would happen if people just picked a pup, without all this testing, and had to train it. How far would they get? Most dogs have it in them to be trained and to be worked... The grand 64.000 dollar question is tho, are you able to bring it out of him to do this work? Soft dogs can make excellent working dogs or sports dogs, hard dog can make excellent working dogs or trial dogs, inbetween dogs can make excellent trial or working dogs. The key is knowing how to bring it out of the dog.
> 
> One thing I learned in my time in working dogs. When a dog fails to do as expected or required it is a reason for me to look at what I am doing wrong... If the dog ****s up, its most likely something I did, not something the dog did.
> 
> JMO


i agree with you to a certain extent but your still assuming a suitable standard of pup/dog. or you would go purchase dobermans or rottweilers to title in knpv but you don't because no matter how good a trainer you are or how little mistakes you make if the dog didnt have it in them in the first place your going to fail the majority of the time.
your not "testing" puppies but then again you live in a country and purchase dogs from breeders and bloodlines that have for generations produced dogs capable of meeting your requirments. not everyone is as spoilt for choice so from what they do have access to they want to make the best decision possible.


----------



## will fernandez

If you drive 10 hours and spend 1200 on a pup. You should be able to test the merchandise. Now if you only pay 300 euro and drive forty five minutes then u can give it a quick eye and say yes or no .......then move on to the next one.


----------



## Joby Becker

Alice Bezemer said:


> Maybe its time to develop test's for owners instead of dogs...
> 
> All this talk of testing and how to do it, what to test for and why all looks like a backdoor out in my eyes. Its a simple way to always lay blame with a dog or pup instead of seeking within yourself to see if you perhaps (and most probably) made mistakes somewhere down the line.
> 
> Dogs get picked apart and scrutinized, flaws layed out to examine yet no one does this with the handler. I wonder what would happen if people just picked a pup, without all this testing, and had to train it. How far would they get? Most dogs have it in them to be trained and to be worked... The grand 64.000 dollar question is tho, are you able to bring it out of him to do this work? Soft dogs can make excellent working dogs or sports dogs, hard dog can make excellent working dogs or trial dogs, inbetween dogs can make excellent trial or working dogs. The key is knowing how to bring it out of the dog.
> 
> *One thing I learned in my time in working dogs. When a dog fails to do as expected or required it is a reason for me to look at what I am doing wrong... If the dog ****s up, its most likely something I did, not something the dog did*.
> 
> JMO





Alice Bezemer said:


> I buy a pup, I play around with it a bit, at 6 or 7 months (some go quicker, some later depending on the speed they develop, some dogs are quicker than others) I check for a solid bite and workability. Don't have either? *Out you go... next!*


Alice, how many pups have you opted not to start or continue to train, after you have gotten them? that ended up being moved out?


----------



## Joby Becker

I think the greater the empirical knowledge of the family of dogs being looked at, the greater the knowledge of the breeders, and the greater the trust that one is putting in those things, the less the need for any formal or real "testing" of puppies, and that the desire or need for testing may also be weighted by the specifics of the training "program" the pups will undergo, and the usage of the dogs as adults. among other factors.

Also testing can be a moot point at times, depending on the circumstances.

I did not do any kind of testing for my last 2 pups.. I knew 100% I was taking a pup from each litter before I even went there, it was a done deal, so why complicate the mind with testing at all? In both cases there were only 2 puppies that I was choosing from, so I picked the one I liked the best after a short observation period, put them in a carrier and took them home.

In one case I put a lot of trust in the breeder, went with a co-owner, and we picked the one we both liked better, the other I had no real trust in the breeder, but decided to take a chance on the pup because I thought the breeding was interesting and wanted a pup, which was offered to me.

My requirments for a dog may be less in some areas than some people, and more in other areas.


----------



## Alice Bezemer

Joby Becker said:


> Alice, how many pups have you opted not to start or continue to train, after you have gotten them? that ended up being moved out?


That would be a grand total of zero.


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## Joby Becker

Alice Bezemer said:


> That would be a grand total of zero.


ok..so the post you made about looking at them at 6-7 months and moving them for those reasons, describes the hypothetical result if you come accross one that does not measure up then? or you would not move one for those reasons you stated at all?


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## Alice Bezemer

Joby Becker said:


> ok..so the post you made about looking at them at 6-7 months and moving them for those reasons, describes the hypothetical result if you come accross one that does not measure up then? or you would not move one for those reasons you stated at all?


If they do not bite at around that age and I can not get them to bite, yup, out they go. That would pretty much all the reason for them to move house. No biting is no workability so they are useless for what I train for.


----------



## Michael Murphy

Alice Bezemer said:


> If they do not bite at around that age and I can not get them to bite, yup, out they go. That would pretty much all the reason for them to move house. No biting is no workability so they are useless for what I train for.


so at 7 months all your dogs could bite. but what? tug, pillow, sleeve, suit?


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## Alice Bezemer

Michael Murphy said:


> so at 7 months all your dogs could bite. but what? tug, pillow, sleeve, suit?


Suit. (depending on dogs size at that age its suit or sleeve but mostly at 7 months they are biting the suit.) I never use a tug or pillow, not many in KNPV do. 

As pup we start with a puppysleeve and move up to adult sleeve and suit.


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## Michael Murphy

will fernandez said:


> If you drive 10 hours and spend 1200 on a pup. You should be able to test the merchandise. Now if you only pay 300 euro and drive forty five minutes then u can give it a quick eye and say yes or no .......then move on to the next one.


they got 300 euro in holland? :-&


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## Michael Murphy

^ cost instead of got lol


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## Alice Bezemer

Michael Murphy said:


> ^ cost instead of got lol


E350,= for a pup.


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## Michael Murphy

in australia fci malinois go for 1400 euro, and the parents dont even have to be titled or anything ](*,)


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## Selena van Leeuwen

will fernandez said:


> If you drive 10 hours and spend 1200 on a pup. You should be able to test the merchandise. Now if you only pay 300 euro and drive forty five minutes then u can give it a quick eye and say yes or no .......then move on to the next one.


If you´re serious about your goals and and know what you like in a dog/pup, it makes no diffrence if a pup costs 1200 or 350 euro. If a dog costs 1200 it does not make me more motivated to train it. I like to train it or not, despite the price. You like what you see/observe and buy it, because you want to train it..
Down the road every dog has his issues. ( like stated before). 
Why does everyone look for Rintintin...:roll:

I never need more then ten minutes to know what to choose ( or not) and never took a "bad"pup. Not from our bloodline and not from other lines. I know what I like to train with and see these traits when I see a litter. Not testing but just by seeing the litter ( without the mum) playing together ( or not playing but bulley/fight)

About 1,5 year ago we went to buy a FCI mal female. Selena's father Hans, went with us. We watched the litter and after about 15 minutes we choose both indipendently from eachother the same female ( without testing any pup) and the female grew up a fine suitable working female. So its all about reconeize the traits you're looking for...

Dick


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## will fernandez

I agree with you Dick...but for some people who are not sure it is a process to try to get they best dog they can with not as much experience...once they know what to look for it becomes easier...

the devil knows more for being old than for being a devil...


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## kristin tresidder

One of the best dogs I've ever had cost $350 euros & I didn't do any testing with him other than observing him out by himself - lil' badass that he was ;-)

That line about the devil is my new favorite Internet quote of the day!


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## Matt Vandart

I concur with this ^^


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> I know what I like to train with and see these traits when I see a litter.
> Dick


What traits are you looking for? 


T


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

will fernandez said:


> I agree with you Dick...but for some people who are not sure it is a process to try to get they best dog they can with not as much experience...once they know what to look for it becomes easier...
> 
> the devil knows more for being old than for being a devil...


Traits:

1. Sound sensitivity. I don't like puppies that display sound sensitivity. Just watching them, how will I know if they are sound sensitive or not.
2. I don't like puppies that change once you change environments. How will I know if I don't change environments?


These are just two areas that I'm interested in when I look at a puppy. If you were observing a puppy, how do you decide regarding these two traits?

T


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## Bob Scott

I also like to sit and observe but a natural retrieve is one of my must haves in a pup. That has to be tested for. I've seen lab pups with no retrieve that came out of parents that had a great retrieve. I want to see the pup do the same. My first GSD, selected for SAR, was retrieving to hand at 4-5 weeks old on the first try.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Bob Scott said:


> I also like to sit and observe but a natural retrieve is one of my must haves in a pup. That has to be tested for. I've seen lab pups with no retrieve that came out of parents that had a great retrieve. I want to see the pup do the same. My first GSD, selected for SAR, was retrieving to hand at 4-5 weeks old on the first try.


Exactly! How do you just look at it based on experience, to KNOW whether it will have that? I don't understand all this offended attitude at the mention of testing and that the desire to test mean you lack experience. It speaks of ego--the puppies are perfect and how dare someone--a lowly buyer insinuate that they could be less than perfect by wanting to test for traits they desire in a dog.

T


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## susan tuck

I've never had a GSD without a natural retrieve, I've never had a GSD with sound sensitivity. In fact other than health issues, I've been pretty much happy with the drives and nerve of all my working line GSDs and never did any formal testing with any of them as puppies. My Asko grandson, spazzy as he was as a young dog, he has great nerve as an adult, and again, knowing the bloodline, it's what one should expect. They are a product of their blood lines. I think for the most part, most litters are very uniform, so I go by bloodlines and the breeder, and if I didn't trust the breeder I wouldn't be buying from him/her anyways.


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## Bob Scott

It's just a choice for me. Not in the numbers as some here, but I think I've has some excellent success with my puppy selections in the past 40+ yrs. I've yet to see what I choose *FOR ME* at 6 wks change as they age. 
I can't take offensive at some one that has success with their methods and obviously Dick has had tremendous success. I'll respect that success AND opinion. ;-)


----------



## susan tuck

Bob Scott said:


> It's just a choice for me. Not in the numbers as some here, but I think I've has some excellent success with my puppy selections in the past 40+ yrs. I've yet to see what I choose *FOR ME* at 6 wks change as they age.
> I can't take offensive at some one that has success with their methods and obviously Dick has had tremendous success. I'll respect that success AND opinion. ;-)


I actually respect everyone's opinion, not just Dicks...even yours!!! :-D I think it's a matter of personal choice, some people do extensive testing and others have an innate ability that's difficult to explain, while others rely more on bloodlines. 

The original question was: "how to test a puppies nerves? here i am talking about a maximum of 8 weeks more likely 7 weeks of age."

The fact is not everybody thinks it's necessary to do specific nerve tests. The thing is do what works for you. Testing is fine for those that feel the need, but it's not the be all and end all, as evidenced by the many fine competition dogs who, when all things in the litter were considered equal, were picked for a stupid reason like color or pretty eyes, or like many dogs that end up doing well at upper levels, just happened to be the last pup left in the litter.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

I think that respect ought to be mutual. I'm not one to have that faith in lines. Seeing is believing and I don't have to gamble. I'm about to spend up to 12-14 years with that dog and I have a certain purpose in mind. I don't send them back or resell them. It doesn't wash out. Like Bob, I follow my selection criteria/test/ observation whatever, you want to call it and the dog was what I wanted it to be. One of the reasons, I don't believe in the "crap shoot" theory. The rest is training it and raising it. I've seen good working line and not-so-good working line, so its not a working line vs. something else for me. 

T


----------



## susan tuck

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I think that respect ought to be mutual. I'm not one to have that faith in lines. Seeing is believing and I don't have to gamble. I'm about to spend up to 12-14 years with that dog and I have a certain purpose in mind. I don't send them back or resell them. It doesn't wash out. Like Bob, I follow my selection criteria/test/ observation whatever, you want to call it and the dog was what I wanted it to be. One of the reasons, I don't believe in the "crap shoot" theory. The rest is training it and raising it. I've seen good working line and not-so-good working line, so its not a working line vs. something else for me.
> 
> T


Which is fine, it obviously works for you, so that's what you should do. I'm not saying you're way is wrong, I'm saying I do it differently, so far I've been happy with my dogs too. Different strokes!


----------



## Alice Bezemer

susan tuck said:


> I actually respect everyone's opinion, not just Dicks...even yours!!! :-D I think it's a matter of personal choice, some people do extensive testing and others have an innate ability that's difficult to explain, while others rely more on bloodlines.
> 
> The original question was: "how to test a puppies nerves? here i am talking about a maximum of 8 weeks more likely 7 weeks of age."
> 
> The fact is not everybody thinks it's necessary to do specific nerve tests. The thing is do what works for you. * Testing is fine for those that feel the need, but it's not the be all and end all, as evidenced by the many fine competition dogs who, when all things in the litter were considered equal, were picked for a stupid reason like color or pretty eyes, or like many dogs that end up doing well at upper levels, just happened to be the last pup left in the litter.*


+1


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Yep, take what you can get and if you're lucky, it might be a trial winner. Otherwise, it just means you can't train. Great theory for puppy sales. 

T


----------



## susan tuck

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Yep, take what you can get and if you're lucky, it might be a trial winner. Otherwise, it just means you can't train. Great theory for puppy sales.
> 
> T


Good thing no one ever said that, huh!


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Still waiting on what traits you can see just by looking at them based on experience--that relates to nerves or anything else one desires in a dog. As for what has been said, I think that about sums it up. 


T


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## susan tuck

Alice Bezemer said:


> +1


Why thank you Alice, and I *+1* your *+1* !!!


----------



## Alice Bezemer

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Exactly! How do you just look at it based on experience, to KNOW whether it will have that? I don't understand all this offended attitude at the mention of testing and that the desire to test mean you lack experience. It speaks of ego--the puppies are perfect and how dare someone--a lowly buyer insinuate that they could be less than perfect by wanting to test for traits they desire in a dog.
> 
> T


No one ever said the pups are perfect, those are your words. Ego? It has nothing to do with ego, again, your words... 

How did people ever train dogs befor testing was the new rage? It must have been hard, all those useless pups laying around....

Pick a pup, train it, find your way around the issues it might have... Do not blame the pup for the problems that arise, blame yourself for not knowing how to work around it or to fix it! 

Pretty much every pup has the ability to work, its the handler that gets stumped on how to get it to work that's the real problem.

Again JMO...


----------



## Alice Bezemer

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Yep, take what you can get and if you're lucky, it might be a trial winner. Otherwise, it just means you can't train. Great theory for puppy sales.
> 
> T


:-({|=

With that kind of attitude you might as well start a knitting circle. 

Luck has nothing to do with it. You can not see inside a pup to see what the future brings you when working him... you can test up the wahzoo and still not get what you thought you picked from the litter...

Its YOUR job to work with what you have, be it tested, untested, crooked eared or crosseyed.


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## Alice Bezemer

susan tuck said:


> Why thank you Alice, and I *+1* your *+1* !!!


*slaps another +1 on top of the +'d 1 +1* :mrgreen:


----------



## Gillian Schuler

I find "nerve" testing a strange word. 

One of my trainers told me that in a well bred litter of dogs, they would be similar in character/ quality. This was because I had asked what if I want a pup from this breeder - I am not famous, would I qualify for a pup?

I have watched a number of litters develop, they spoke for what he said.

However, to generalise that one could pick any pup from any breeder and from any litter and raise it to become successful in sport has me wondering.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Soms zo frustrerend om jezelf te uiten door de taalbarière. Maar tegen de tijd dat men aan de andere kant van de plas volledig selfsupporting is en er niet constant kwaliteit uit Europa geimporteerd hoeft te worden, mogen ze ook eens meepraten over testen tbv de fok of om mee te werken. 
Kennelijk testen ze verkeerd en maken constant de verkeerde keuzes. Hier testen we in Nederland bijna nooit een pup bij aankoop en doen het toch nog niet zo verkeerde de afgelopen 100 jaar....:roll:
Het zou goed zijn als ze eens op `leren` gingen staan.

Misschien kan jij helpen Alice.:wink:... Ik ben dat eigenwijze betweterschap eigenlijk al aardig zat. Zo, weten ze ook eens wat het is om te moeten omdenken in een andere taal.:-\"

Dick


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Soms zo frustrerend om jezelf te uiten door de taalbarière. Maar tegen de tijd dat men aan de andere kant van de plas volledig selfsupporting is en er niet constant kwaliteit uit Europa geimporteerd hoeft te worden, mogen ze ook eens meepraten over testen tbv de fok of om mee te werken.
> Kennelijk testen ze verkeerd en maken constant de verkeerde keuzes. Hier testen we in Nederland bijna nooit een pup bij aankoop en doen het toch nog niet zo verkeerde de afgelopen 100 jaar....:roll:
> Het zou goed zijn als ze eens op `leren` gingen staan.
> 
> Misschien kan jij helpen Alice.:wink:... Ik ben dat eigenwijze betweterschap eigenlijk al aardig zat. Zo, weten ze ook eens wat het is om te moeten omdenken in een andere taal.:-\"
> 
> Dick



So ..... Alice? Maybe you can help, as I think was suggested? 

Also, I think Dick is saying how frustrating the language barrier is?


I got (I think) that evaluating a test wrong is useless. Also that in the Netherlands, they almost never test a puppy for purchase and still manage to get excellent choices. 

But please correct me. I'm guessing by the few words I know and the context.


----------



## Alice Bezemer

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Soms zo frustrerend om jezelf te uiten door de taalbarière. Maar tegen de tijd dat men aan de andere kant van de plas volledig selfsupporting is en er niet constant kwaliteit uit Europa geimporteerd hoeft te worden, mogen ze ook eens meepraten over testen tbv de fok of om mee te werken.
> Kennelijk testen ze verkeerd en maken constant de verkeerde keuzes. Hier testen we in Nederland bijna nooit een pup bij aankoop en doen het toch nog niet zo verkeerde de afgelopen 100 jaar....:roll:
> Het zou goed zijn als ze eens op `leren` gingen staan.
> 
> Misschien kan jij helpen Alice.:wink:... Ik ben dat eigenwijze betweterschap eigenlijk al aardig zat. Zo, weten ze ook eens wat het is om te moeten omdenken in een andere taal.:-\"
> 
> Dick


Ik vraag me af, wat zou er gebeuren als er verteld word hoe er vroeger pups bij de boer vandaan werden gehaald, zonder bloedlijn of bijzonderheden en dat deze honden ook de weg naar de top vonden? Ik heb vaak het idee dat ze iets proberen te verbeteren wat al meer dan 100 jaar werkt! Vraag me alleen af wanneer ze erachter komen dat de denkwijze die gehanteerd word geen verbetering oplevert, maar verslechtering? Word ons verteld dat het ego van onze kant is :lol: IK? Helpen? ehhhhm, ben bang dat ik weinig hulp kan leveren tegen zulke betweters, zin heb ik er zekers nie meer an! :winks: Mooi he zo'n taalbarriere :mrgreen:


----------



## Nicole Stark

Alice you are funny.


----------



## Ellen Piepers

Nicole Stark said:


> Alice you are funny.


Funny is an understatement. But I'm afraid she's also quite right


----------



## Nicole Stark

Ellen Piepers said:


> Funny is an understatement. But I'm afraid she's also quite right


Yeah, I know. I was being facetious.


----------



## Ellen Piepers

A friend of mine told me an anecdote of when he had a litter of KNPV dogs years ago. Some people also wanted to test the pups. In the area where the pups were playing, there were several shelves to store stuff. On one of them there was a dustpan, and the guys that came to test the pups, took it from the shelf and dropped it on the floor. Nice sound effect, and all of the pups came running towards the tester. What he didn't know was that the breeder always dropped the dustpan right before the pups were fed


----------



## Alice Bezemer

Connie Sutherland said:


> So ..... Alice? Maybe you can help, as I think was suggested?
> 
> Also, I think Dick is saying how frustrating the language barrier is?
> 
> 
> I got (I think) that evaluating a test wrong is useless. Also that in the Netherlands, they almost never test a puppy for purchase and still manage to get excellent choices.
> 
> But please correct me. I'm guessing by the few words I know and the context.


Yup on the language barrier which I imagine for someone not native to english is very frustrating. I'm lucky I am scottish and speak english and dutch due to having a dutch father. 

As for the other part, it loosely translates too not testing in the netherlands and still in the last 100 years or so we didn't do that bad with the untested dogs now did we? Words that I completely agree with....


----------



## Erik Berg

This large study didn´t found much that said puppytests at 8 weeks predicted how the dog did at later tests for police/militarydog,
https://www.google.se/url?sa=t&rct=...vYI4wZhqlO9wwmR3jQzoecA&bvm=bv.48293060,d.bGE

This one found a connection, puppytets at 7 weeks
http://dogsportblog.typepad.com/files/czechpuppytesting.pdf

Other than that I agree that be able to know what to look for and not taking a puppytest to serious is probably sound, a puppy is a blank papper with a small part written on it, the rest the future owner shapes himelf, said by a breeder who uses puppytests himself Letting the breeder choose after you have given him your wishes is propably also a good method.


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Ellen Piepers said:


> A friend of mine told me an anecdote of when he had a litter of KNPV dogs years ago. Some people also wanted to test the pups. In the area where the pups were playing, there were several shelves to store stuff. On one of them there was a dustpan, and the guys that came to test the pups, took it from the shelf and dropped it on the floor. Nice sound effect, and all of the pups came running towards the tester. What he didn't know was that the breeder always dropped the dustpan right before the pups were fed



:lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Alice Bezemer said:


> :-({|=
> 
> With that kind of attitude you might as well start a knitting circle.
> 
> Luck has nothing to do with it. You can not see inside a pup to see what the future brings you when working him... you can test up the wahzoo and still not get what you thought you picked from the litter...
> 
> Its YOUR job to work with what you have, be it tested, untested, crooked eared or crosseyed.


 
You are banking on certain traits being in a certain bloodline almost as a given and the rest is up to the trainer. Great you have that luxury. You can't see outside the KNPV box. YOU can't see inside of a pup and predict a pup for what you do. Perhaps someone else can. You train for a specific purpose [KNPV] and you are damn sure that those traits that you need for the purpose are there. Again, that's not a given for anything else. Have you ever done anything else with a dog besides KNPV? Have you ever had other types of purpose dogs? Why does the word "test" strike such fear and contempt?

T


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Alice Bezemer said:


> No one ever said the pups are perfect, those are your words. Ego? It has nothing to do with ego, again, your words...
> 
> How did people ever train dogs befor testing was the new rage? It must have been hard, all those useless pups laying around....
> 
> Pick a pup, train it, find your way around the issues it might have... Do not blame the pup for the problems that arise, blame yourself for not knowing how to work around it or to fix it!
> 
> Pretty much every pup has the ability to work, its the handler that gets stumped on how to get it to work that's the real problem.
> 
> Again JMO...


No one said training and raising wasn't a factor in the final result. I think everyone would agree that it is. However, that has nothing to do with the purpose of the thread--testing for nerves I a puppy. Perhaps that raises another question--do you think nerves are trainable? Actually before testing you did have a lot of useless dogs--culls. How many people here say puppies are a crap shoot? Worthless puppies or worthless trainers? We have a number of police officers with program washouts. Their lives are at stake when the nerves don't hold up. Worthless dogs or worthless trainers? Agreed, they don't have two years to try to condition them to every environment possible and then be on dial-a-hope that the nerves will hold up. As for every pup having the ability to work, you said you would wash out a 6-7 month old that didn't bite. Is that a reflection of your inability to train the puppy to bite or maybe pup just doesn't have the ability to do the work that you train for?

T


----------



## Nicole Stark

I imagine that this "testing" process merely serves as a vehicle for some to induce certain behaviors/characteristics that are there nauturally but may exist rather subtly in a dog/puppy. Some have an intuition about dogs, others through experience and observation develop an "ear" of sort to see them with, some need more pronounced ways to see what it is that they have before them. Application of course, is relevant as well. 

My mastiff for example taught me to "see" scent through her actions. It's an incredible process to watch, primal, and as David Frost once said, kind of erotic. Same with motors. I've watched and listened to cars running on TV, YouTube, in person, etc. I've listened to them for years and worked on them less time than I have spent listening to them run. Yet, for some reason I can hear and see things with cars (most types of vehicles) that people who work on this stuff regularly cannot.

As far as what Dick had to say, I don't believe this disconnect is about a barrier of language or even that of culture. It is a different type of language that allows a certain type of communication to flow and connect, a view of expresssion that tells a story rather than answers questions. Some of you will understand what I am saying, particularly in context of this dicussion and it will become clear (if it's not already) that many of us speak the same language or have the capacity to do so when it comes to dogs.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Soms zo frustrerend om jezelf te uiten door de taalbarière. Maar tegen de tijd dat men aan de andere kant van de plas volledig selfsupporting is en er niet constant kwaliteit uit Europa geimporteerd hoeft te worden, mogen ze ook eens meepraten over testen tbv de fok of om mee te werken.
> Kennelijk testen ze verkeerd en maken constant de verkeerde keuzes. Hier testen we in Nederland bijna nooit een pup bij aankoop en doen het toch nog niet zo verkeerde de afgelopen 100 jaar....:roll:
> Het zou goed zijn als ze eens op `leren` gingen staan.
> 
> Misschien kan jij helpen Alice.:wink:... Ik ben dat eigenwijze betweterschap eigenlijk al aardig zat. Zo, weten ze ook eens wat het is om te moeten omdenken in een andere taal.:-\"
> 
> Dick


I'm not sure google translator is that great, but again, everyone has some sort of selection criteria. You observe the puppies to see if they have what traits? Please list the traits you are looking for when you are observing a litter.

*Sometimes frustrating to express through the language barrier yourself. But by the time that one on the other side of the lake is completely self-supporting and have to be, there is not constant quality imported from Europe, they may also agree say on behalf testing breeding or to work.
Apparently they test wrong and constantly make the wrong choices. Here we almost never tested in the Netherlands when buying a puppy and still do not wrong the last 100 years ....
It would be good if they agree to `learn 'stood.

Maybe you can help Alice .... I'm stubborn that Smarty landscape actually nice enough. So, they even know what it's like to have to change in thinking in another language*


----------



## rick smith

Thanks for posting those two studies Erik

nice to read some multi year controlled studies to add to the personal opinions 

it also reminded me i've always been a bit disappointed we never get any service dog participation on this forum ... i consider that venue a legitimate part of the working dog world too

** this comment, quoted from the second link, certainly won't be disputed :
..... "Opinions on predictive value of puppy behavior tests have remained 
controversial" //rotflmao


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Alice Bezemer said:


> Ik vraag me af, wat zou er gebeuren als er verteld word hoe er vroeger pups bij de boer vandaan werden gehaald, zonder bloedlijn of bijzonderheden en dat deze honden ook de weg naar de top vonden? Ik heb vaak het idee dat ze iets proberen te verbeteren wat al meer dan 100 jaar werkt! Vraag me alleen af wanneer ze erachter komen dat de denkwijze die gehanteerd word geen verbetering oplevert, maar verslechtering? Word ons verteld dat het ego van onze kant is :lol: IK? Helpen? ehhhhm, ben bang dat ik weinig hulp kan leveren tegen zulke betweters, zin heb ik er zekers nie meer an! :winks: Mooi he zo'n taalbarriere :mrgreen:


Another loose google translation:

*I wonder what would happen if there'm told how there used pups were taken away, without bloodline or special and that these dogs also found their way to the top? With the farmer I often feel that they are trying to improve what is already more than 100 years does something! Ask me only when they find out that the mindset that used'm not improve yields, but deterioration? Word tells us that the ego of our side is I? Help? ehhhhm,'m afraid I can deliver against such pedants, little help I sense there is certain, more an nie! : winks: Nice huh such a language barrier*


Yes, I think its hilarious too, especially in light of the second someone comes on and generalizes KNPV dog traits, he's told that they aren't created equal. But I guess it could narrow the selection process. Don't worry about testing or selection criteria, just go to KNPV lines, the land of where every puppy is capable of working---assuming you can train it.

T


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

rick smith said:


> Thanks for posting those two studies Erik
> 
> nice to read some multi year controlled studies to add to the personal opinions
> 
> it also reminded me i've always been a bit disappointed we never get any service dog participation on this forum ... i consider that venue a legitimate part of the working dog world too
> 
> ** this comment, quoted from the second link, certainly won't be disputed :
> ..... "Opinions on predictive value of puppy behavior tests have remained
> controversial" //rotflmao


 
The best service dog information out there is what was done with Scott, Fuller and Pffafenberger. I also have book on breeding program and selection criteria studies with GSDs and how they reproduced working dog traits through testing for certain traits in the breeding pairs. 

T


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Erik Berg said:


> This large study didn´t found much that said puppytests at 8 weeks predicted how the dog did at later tests for police/militarydog,
> https://www.google.se/url?sa=t&rct=...vYI4wZhqlO9wwmR3jQzoecA&bvm=bv.48293060,d.bGE
> 
> This one found a connection, puppytets at 7 weeks
> http://dogsportblog.typepad.com/files/czechpuppytesting.pdf
> 
> Other than that I agree that be able to know what to look for and not taking a puppytest to serious is probably sound, a puppy is a blank papper with a small part written on it, the rest the future owner shapes himelf, said by a breeder who uses puppytests himself Letting the breeder choose after you have given him your wishes is propably also a good method.


Thanks for the links. The first admits that the puppy test had no correlation to what was tested or needed in the adult dog so not surprising the tests didn't have any predictive value. The second--good laundry list and close to what I look at. Also interesting that this one is on point for looking at puppy tests predictive of working police dog abilities. Will sit down and study this one more in depth as there are some added things that are interesting.

T


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## susan tuck

Michael Murphy said:


> serious question here.
> 
> how to test a puppies nerves? here i am talking about a maximum of 8 weeks more likely 7 weeks of age.


Hey Michael you may also want to contact Steve Burger, (he's a member of this forum), because one of his fellow IPO club members is Dr. Gabi Hoffman (wife of Lance Collins). She did her doctoral thesis on the predictibility of dog behviour from puppy behavior, plus she's from Australia so she speaks the same language as you....that was supposed to be funny.:-D 

Here's her bio:
http://vomhausbergblick.com/gabi hoffmann.htm

As you can see, she is very accomplished in the world of IPO and holds a PhD in Animal Behaviour sciences.

Here is a thread where Steve Burger mentions her findings on this topic:

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f10/testing-litter-9645/index2.html

"I wanted to follow up on the discussion I had with Dr. Gabi Hoffman. Her Doctoral thesis research followed 250 GSD puppies (at least that is what I think she said). Puppies were tested at 7 weeks, 5 months and 18 months. The conclusion was there was no reliable testing at 7 weeks that could determine adult behavior at 18 months. She did say that at 5 months there was a bit of reliability. She said the most you could hope for was to maybe eliminate a few undesirable traits, but even so this was not reliable. She said the best you could hope for is having the impressions of the breeder. According to her it's still somewhat of a crapshoot."


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## Terrasita Cuffie

This thread was about how to test for nerves rather than if test have any predictability for what you get in the adult. Dr. Gabi Hoffman's study utilized the Volhard type tests and concluded that those specific tests did not have predictability. The conclusion which should have been specific to the test given in puppyhood and in adulthood have been bandied about all over the internet as discounting any puppy testing whatsoever and as support for the crap shoot theory. Steve was kind enough to ask for a link to the study; however, you can't access it. Dr. Hoffman has declined in terms of providing a copy. From Steve:

*http://espace.library.uq.edu.au/view/UQ:106125** It looks like you have to be a student or faculty to get direct access to the study after checking for all of 5 minutes. Maybe there are some other ways in. I asked Gabi and she said it should be available through the site. She said before she would publicly post it she would want to edit it to make it reader friendly but has no interest in doing so at this time. She did also say that to get ANY kind of predictability she had to measure the extreme dogs. She did say if you are testing it would be best to avoid pups with obvious extreme problems or reactions you do not desire. Other than that a complete crap shoot. My personal observations when it comes to GSD's it seems like still waters run deep.*

Lots of discussion in this thread http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f30/what-do-you-look-green-dog-pup-26065/index6.html
on what people look for and how they determine if the pup has it. If you are looking at any test, please let it correlate to the adult test/work/function otherwise, duhhhhh, it doesn't have any predictive value. My recollection is that the test used was the Volhard type pet puppy test which wouldn't have any predictive value for working dog functions. Funny how reading the older threads adds greater detail to this one. Alice is so assured of her breeder and lines, her criteria can be white toes or a white spot on a chin. Like I said, what a luxury. Then there are the abused breeders who have produced their best, only to have someone blame them for their lack of training finesses when they are unhappy with how the puppy turns out. I'm sure every breeder has one of those stories but that has nothing to do with the value of puppy testing for predicting certain traits.


T


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## susan tuck

Actually, according to you, you have never read the study, nor do you have any actual knowledge on how she tested the pups.

Probably if Michael is interested in what Gabi has to say about testing puppies, it would be better for Michael to contact Steve Burger and then Gabi, to get the info from the horse's mouth, rather than unsubstantiated rumor. 

So Michael, if you are interested in Gabi's thesis, please contact her through Steve Burger.


----------



## susan tuck

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> You are banking on certain traits being in a certain bloodline almost as a given and the rest is up to the trainer. Great you have that luxury. You can't see outside the KNPV box. YOU can't see inside of a pup and predict a pup for what you do. Perhaps someone else can. You train for a specific purpose [KNPV] and you are damn sure that those traits that you need for the purpose are there. Again, that's not a given for anything else. Have you ever done anything else with a dog besides KNPV? Have you ever had other types of purpose dogs? Why does the word "test" strike such fear and contempt?
> 
> T


Hey I just read this and have a question for you, Terrasita: Why does the fact that some people don't feel testing is necessary strike such fear and contempt in you?
:-\":lol:


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

susan tuck said:


> Hey I just read this and have a question for you, Terrasita: Why does the fact that some people don't feel testing is necessary strike such fear and contempt in you?
> :-\":lol:


 
Ohhhh, Susan, at the end of the day, I don't really care if someone else doesn't believe in testing FOR THEM. For this thread, I would disregard them. But the statements regarding experience and training ability are another gigantic leap. If you think you can believe in the lines and pick based upon things like white spots or toes--great. But this thread was about HOW someone tests for nerves. For those who say they don't test, they say they have the experience to look at a litter and pick the puppy that has the traits they desire. I've asked several times, what traits and what do the puppies display in their demeanor or behaviors that they have them and nothing is said. Also, if you don't test, do you think nerves are trainable? No response. My gut says that the KNPV folks believe that any pup in the litter has potential for KNPV certification if you know what you are doing as a trainer. But what about other venues? Does that theory hold true in non-KNPV breedings? As I said, I don't care if anyone test or not--that's personal. You do what works for you. But what has been said here is that people test because they don't have the experience to pick the puppy by observing it. That part is objectionable. You've never had a puppy out of working lines that didn't have a natural retrieve. Someone else has. Next comes the statement that all puppies have the ability to work. I really do think this is a Dutch/KNPV thing. For puppies notorious for their strengths, why the attitude of "you're not going to do this and that to our puppies." Do you really think the pups can come to harm? Most of this comes from the KNPV community with the idea that any potential buyer either doesn't know how to test, interpret the test or ultimately train. That's an ongoing theme. As I said before, I think its semantics. I find it hard to believe that any breeder doesn't have some system or criteria for distinguishing one puppy from the other and pretty scary if they don't. I've tested my own and I've tested others. Its always interesting to follow them in their performance careers and retest at an adult age to see how far socialization can take them. More and more the discussion of nerves is popping up in other venues and now the behaviorists are discussing "neophobia."

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie

susan tuck said:


> Actually, according to you, you have never read the study, nor do you have any actual knowledge on how she tested the pups.
> 
> Probably if Michael is interested in what Gabi has to say about testing puppies, it would be better for Michael to contact Steve Burger and then Gabi, to get the info from the horse's mouth, rather than unsubstantiated rumor.
> 
> So Michael, if you are interested in Gabi's thesis, please contact her through Steve Burger.


Actually, my information came from Steve but if you want to call that unsubstantiated rumor--okay. The study itself--unedited, would be the best information. Maybe someone can appeal to her again to disclose it. 

T


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## Alice Bezemer

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Ohhhh, Susan, at the end of the day, I don't really care if someone else doesn't believe in testing FOR THEM. For this thread, I would disregard them. But the statements regarding experience and training ability are another gigantic leap. If you think you can believe in the lines and pick based upon things like white spots or toes--great. But this thread was about HOW someone tests for nerves. For those who say they don't test, they say they have the experience to look at a litter and pick the puppy that has the traits they desire. I've asked several times, what traits and what do the puppies display in their demeanor or behaviors that they have them and nothing is said. Also, if you don't test, do you think nerves are trainable? No response. My gut says that the KNPV folks believe that any pup in the litter has potential for KNPV certification if you know what you are doing as a trainer. But what about other venues? Does that theory hold true in non-KNPV breedings? As I said, I don't care if anyone test or not--that's personal. You do what works for you. But what has been said here is that people test because they don't have the experience to pick the puppy by observing it. That part is objectionable. You've never had a puppy out of working lines that didn't have a natural retrieve. Someone else has. Next comes the statement that all puppies have the ability to work. I really do think this is a Dutch/KNPV thing. For puppies notorious for their strengths, why the attitude of "you're not going to do this and that to our puppies." Do you really think the pups can come to harm? Most of this comes from the KNPV community with the idea that any potential buyer either doesn't know how to test, interpret the test or ultimately train. That's an ongoing theme. As I said before, I think its semantics. I find it hard to believe that any breeder doesn't have some system or criteria for distinguishing one puppy from the other and pretty scary if they don't. I've tested my own and I've tested others. Its always interesting to follow them in their performance careers and retest at an adult age to see how far socialization can take them. More and more the discussion of nerves is popping up in other venues and now the behaviorists are discussing "neophobia."
> 
> T


Okay, let me help you out here and list some traits that I look for in a pup.

Breathing - Preferable since without it the pup will not get very far in its training.

Legs- Helps transport the dog across the training field.

Head- Very important! Keep eyes, ears and nose in place, without these there is no training!

Tail- Less important, it only wags your coffeemug of the table anyway, I can live without a tail if need be but it does make the pup look nice!

Fur- pup must have fur, do not like dressing up pups to keep them warm. 

So, tell me, what is this hard on you have for testing? Why is it so important to test something that has nothing to show you yet in terms of work? 

It seems to irritate you that I feel no testing is needed. It seems to irritate you that over here people do not set up whole courses for the pups to run and frolic through in order to show their mettle to the new perspective owners. 

Testing seems to be something that is the rage, together with theories, books, dvd's, long winded discussions and a whole lot of talk about culling litters and washing out pups!

My god, before I came to this forum I had never even heard of culling litters or washing out pups! 

**** it, let me just come out and say what I think and be done with it, and if people get on a huff over it... so be it...

While most people are turning dogs and pups and training into a theory and discussing the dogs at length in long winded conversations, buying DVD's, testing dogs, bringing up studies and books and what have you not.... I am getting another dog ready for trial. 

What I see is dogs being washed out before they even get a chance to show their mettle, pups being shoved aside before even getting a chance to show what they might amount up to. All under the name of "Testing" 

Yes I have a choice pick of bloodlines over here to get a pup from. Don't you have the same in the US? I am pretty sure I have seen a few discussions pass me by about breeders in the US. So I would think that my idea of not testing isn't really that far fetched? Or are the breeders not doing their job and messing up that the need for testing arises? 

Dog training is being made hard, not by the poor choice of dogs or the lack of quality, but by the people who hang up so much theory and testing on the dogs when in fact they should be working and training a dog instead of slapping their face into books over and over to find a study or theory to back up their skewered ideas of what a good working dog should be.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Alice Bezemer said:


> Okay, let me help you out here and list some traits that I look for in a pup.
> 
> Breathing - Preferable since without it the pup will not get very far in its training.
> 
> Legs- Helps transport the dog across the training field.
> 
> Head- Very important! Keep eyes, ears and nose in place, without these there is no training!
> 
> Tail- Less important, it only wags your coffeemug of the table anyway, I can live without a tail if need be but it does make the pup look nice!
> 
> Fur- pup must have fur, do not like dressing up pups to keep them warm.
> 
> So, tell me, what is this hard on you have for testing? Why is it so important to test something that has nothing to show you yet in terms of work?
> 
> It seems to irritate you that I feel no testing is needed. It seems to irritate you that over here people do not set up whole courses for the pups to run and frolic through in order to show their mettle to the new perspective owners.
> 
> Testing seems to be something that is the rage, together with theories, books, dvd's, long winded discussions and a whole lot of talk about culling litters and washing out pups!
> 
> My god, before I came to this forum I had never even heard of culling litters or washing out pups!
> 
> **** it, let me just come out and say what I think and be done with it, and if people get on a huff over it... so be it...
> 
> While most people are turning dogs and pups and training into a theory and discussing the dogs at length in long winded conversations, buying DVD's, testing dogs, bringing up studies and books and what have you not.... I am getting another dog ready for trial.
> 
> What I see is dogs being washed out before they even get a chance to show their mettle, pups being shoved aside before even getting a chance to show what they might amount up to. All under the name of "Testing"
> 
> Yes I have a choice pick of bloodlines over here to get a pup from. Don't you have the same in the US? I am pretty sure I have seen a few discussions pass me by about breeders in the US. So I would think that my idea of not testing isn't really that far fetched? Or are the breeders not doing their job and messing up that the need for testing arises?
> 
> Dog training is being made hard, not by the poor choice of dogs or the lack of quality, but by the people who hang up so much theory and testing on the dogs when in fact they should be working and training a dog instead of slapping their face into books over and over to find a study or theory to back up their skewered ideas of what a good working dog should be.


That's just it Alice, I believe the tests are relevant to the dog's ability to work. I think you operate in a very isolated world [KNPV] and your view point works for you. As for the choice pick of bloodlines--no, there isn't necessarily the same in the U.S. as you obviously feel there is with KNPV lines. I've never heard anyone say every pup has working ability or that every pup in the litter has the same working potential. Nor is this an issue about training. There's training and then there is desensitization, habituation, etc. to deal with nerves issues. For me I don't need a study or a book to back up anything. I have a lifetime in dogs and animals that is the basis for those beliefs. I live with them day in and day out and train them day in and day out. Part of that testing/experimenting is to actually keep, raise, train a type of dog that generally I wouldn't--environmentally nervy. I've been discussing this with a trainer from the Netherlands. Her take on it is "that they all have something." True. But, you also pick your battles. Also, you breed for desirable traits by selecting for them. To select, you have some sort of test. For KNPV, the fact that it certified may be test enough for the Dutch. For all the puppies is a crap shoot and testing gets you nothing talk, I disagree, not because of a book or a study but because I've tested multiple litters, my own and others and followed them to see how it all bore out in adulthood. I'd much rather spend my time training for the work than habituation and desensitization so they can actually perform the work in different environments--maybe. Things like, books, studies, forum discussions are an exchange of ideas [regardless of disagreement] which is something that I always find value in. You might just learn something. Someone mentioned that he had seen nerves "appear" fine in puppyhood and then change later in adulthood. Not my experience, but I was interested in the specifics of that. Those that don't tests "observe" the litter. Would be interesting to know what they are observing and how that translate to desirable adult or working traits. You seem to indicate that the KNPV breeding is so consistent that there is no need to really distinguish between the pups concerning working traits. They all have them and they all will work. That's an interesting concept and I can't recall anyone making such a broad statement.

T


----------



## Alice Bezemer

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> That's just it Alice, I believe the tests are relevant to the dog's ability to work. I think you operate in a very isolated world [KNPV] and your view point works for you. As for the choice pick of bloodlines--no, there isn't necessarily the same in the U.S. as you obviously feel there is with KNPV lines. I've never heard anyone say every pup has working ability or that every pup in the litter has the same working potential. Nor is this an issue about training. There's training and then there is desensitization, habituation, etc. to deal with nerves issues. For me I don't need a study or a book to back up anything. I have a lifetime in dogs and animals that is the basis for those beliefs. I live with them day in and day out and train them day in and day out. Part of that testing/experimenting is to actually keep, raise, train a type of dog that generally I wouldn't--environmentally nervy. I've been discussing this with a trainer from the Netherlands. Her take on it is "that they all have something." True. But, you also pick your battles. Also, you breed for desirable traits by selecting for them. To select, you have some sort of test. For KNPV, the fact that it certified may be test enough for the Dutch. For all the puppies is a crap shoot and testing gets you nothing talk, I disagree, not because of a book or a study but because I've tested multiple litters, my own and others and followed them to see how it all bore out in adulthood. I'd much rather spend my time training for the work than habituation and desensitization so they can actually perform the work in different environments--maybe. Things like, books, studies, forum discussions are an exchange of ideas [regardless of disagreement] which is something that I always find value in. You might just learn something. Someone mentioned that he had seen nerves "appear" fine in puppyhood and then change later in adulthood. Not my experience, but I was interested in the specifics of that. Those that don't tests "observe" the litter. Would be interesting to know what they are observing and how that translate to desirable adult or working traits. *You seem to indicate that the KNPV breeding is so consistent that there is no need to really distinguish between the pups concerning working traits. They all have them and they all will work. That's an interesting concept and I can't recall anyone making such a broad statement.*
> 
> T


I never indicated that at all. I said, every dog has workability and it is up to the handler/owner to find a way to bring that out in the dog. 

What I am saying is, what if you get a nervy dog in your hands? Would you immediately dump it for being nervy or would you take some time to see if there is something to work with? Would that nervy behaviour be there in 2 years time? Could you supress it or find a way to work around it and still end up with a good and solid working dog? I have had dogs as tough as nails who did the job and became working dogs, I had dogs as soft as butter and they became working dogs, I had nervy bastards who went on to become working dogs.

Take a dog, any dog, all faults included... Look at it... find a way to work it and do just that! Work it! Do not sit and focus on how its a nerve bag or a soft dog or a hard dog. Put together a training plan. Just because a dog doesn't seem to have all the desirable traits that you are looking for does not mean it can not become a working dog... that part is up to the handler/owner. It does not make it a bad dog or pup, it just means in my eyes that the handler/owner is taking the quick way out by using labels to put on the dog since the handler is stumped or at a loss as to how to get the dog to work. I see all these mentions of testing for desirable traits and find that most do not even know what they are testing for and still end up picking the wrong dog... the worst thing that happens is that then the breeder gets blamed for having poor quality dogs or nerve bags or what have you not. Anything and everything to make sure that the handler/owner does not have to take responsibility for his own choices...

Maybe I am just to simple in my thinking....


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Alice Bezemer said:


> I never indicated that at all. I said, every dog has workability and it is up to the handler/owner to find a way to bring that out in the dog.
> 
> What I am saying is, what if you get a nervy dog in your hands? Would you immediately dump it for being nervy or would you take some time to see if there is something to work with? Would that nervy behaviour be there in 2 years time? Could you supress it or find a way to work around it and still end up with a good and solid working dog? I have had dogs as tough as nails who did the job and became working dogs, I had dogs as soft as butter and they became working dogs, I had nervy bastards who went on to become working dogs.
> 
> Take a dog, any dog, all faults included... Look at it... find a way to work it and do just that! Work it! Do not sit and focus on how its a nerve bag or a soft dog or a hard dog. Put together a training plan. Just because a dog doesn't seem to have all the desirable traits that you are looking for does not mean it can not become a working dog... that part is up to the handler/owner. It does not make it a bad dog or pup, it just means in my eyes that the handler/owner is taking the quick way out by using labels to put on the dog since the handler is stumped or at a loss as to how to get the dog to work. I see all these mentions of testing for desirable traits and find that most do not even know what they are testing for and still end up picking the wrong dog... the worst thing that happens is that then the breeder gets blamed for having poor quality dogs or nerve bags or what have you not. Anything and everything to make sure that the handler/owner does not have to take responsibility for his own choices...
> 
> Maybe I am just to simple in my thinking....


How many nervy dogs went on to be KNPV certified and working police dogs? Would you intentionally select that dog? In your program are you going to breed it? Or would you go with one that is solid? You train dogs for resell. How much time is added to your training if you have to deal with bad nerves? You ever tell a breeder when listing what you want that you'll take the nervy one because it will broaden your training horizons? Lets eliminate the ones that don't know what they are doing. How about the ones that do. Is the testing still invaluable? This has nothing to do with the blame game--only what is desirable and what is not. Like I said, every breeder has a blame game story. There are people that can screw up any dog. Irrelevant to the present discussion. Just because X puppy doesn't make the grade for X buyer, does that make it a throwaway? No. If the buyer has some specific criteria for his/her puppy, does that make him/her a horrible person that can't train a dog or will blame the breeder for what he gets in the adult dog? No. You go to a breeder, tell them what you want and rely on them to give it to you. I'm sure they have some selection criteria for figuring out which one to sell you even if its merely the one you were attracted to--all things else being equal, hopefully. Like I said, one of mine has nerve issues. Do I "blame" her breeder? No. I didn't test her. The type of issues she has, I didn't think existed in the breed and probably wouldn't know much about them except for comments about Mals here. I have spoken to people who have spent YEARS working to get the dog sound and for national level competition. Took an extraordinary amount of time and money. They have done some truly remarkable work. One of them recently asked about helping to find her another dog and specifically not a "project dog." You asked about breeders doing their job. Perhaps not because of the interpretation of certain literature out there that they interpreted to mean that temperament is made instead of bred.

T


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## Ellen Piepers

Funny how things are seen so black and white here  It's probably the culture clash, people taking things too lterally and generalizing whatever is being said. If two people active in KNPV say they don't test, all of a sudden everybody in KNPV doesn't test. What's more, all of a sudden all KNPV people don't ever see anything else but inside their KNPV box and apparently, KNPV really sucks. Sure, if that makes you happy. 

What personally gets on my nerves is that many discussions over here are around how to get guarantees before you even start with a dog. Maybe that is the difference, here we know we can't get guarantees and we don't care either. They're not preprogrammed robots with both all KNPV programs and any possible real life work already printed in their heads. 

If I look around me, I see many different approaches: some don't test actively but do pick based on some criteria that they might not even be aware of, some only take a pup if they can get first or second pick, some rely entirely on the breeder, some get the one with the biggest head, and others do more or less extensive tests, ranging from just throwing an unknown object into the area they pups are in to taking one outside to their car. Basically, they just do what makes them feel right about their choice, so they can go home with a pup that they are willing to give a chance and invest in (whether it's the best possible or personally best suited pup or not). 

If you don't go home with a pup that you feel confident about, you don't stand a chance anyway. People are biased, and whatever will happen, you'll always be thinking: you see, I was right, this isn't the right dog. regardless of what the dog is or does, and regardless of how you handle it, the preconception is there.

Same with KNPV clubs: there are clubs where people just tend to go for the same (couple of) bloodlines, because they know the pros and cons and (at least think) they know how to handle them easily. In other clubs the landscape is more mixed for whatever reason. Maybe at some clubs they particluarly don't want those same bloodlines for another reason. But regardless, most of them take them to trial and many get sold to end up working somewhere. Probably the people that buy them are dumb then 

Here, when people start making all kinds of exaggerations on the qualities of their dogs, we just smile, even when it's not nearly as extreme as what we can read here about superstud #297 that only produces extreme this and extreme that. Maybe it's because the country is so tiny and distances so short, but here everybody knows that dogs are not perfect, that they never have been, that they all need to be trained, that all kinds of things can go wrong and that even the best dogs have their issues and peculiarities. So what? 

And then back to testing: how can you be so sure that what you expose them to with your test is actually the first time? What if you have 4th pick and the others have done the same? What are you actually testing?


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## will fernandez

Nicely said Ellen.


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## Ellen Piepers

will fernandez said:


> Nicely said Ellen.


Thanks Will. Luckily not everybody is the same
:razz:


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## Michael Murphy

Ellen Piepers said:


> Funny how things are seen so black and white here  It's probably the culture clash, people taking things too lterally and generalizing whatever is being said. If two people active in KNPV say they don't test, all of a sudden everybody in KNPV doesn't test. What's more, all of a sudden all KNPV people don't ever see anything else but inside their KNPV box and apparently, KNPV really sucks. Sure, if that makes you happy.
> 
> What personally gets on my nerves is that many discussions over here are around how to get guarantees before you even start with a dog. Maybe that is the difference, here we know we can't get guarantees and we don't care either. They're not preprogrammed robots with both all KNPV programs and any possible real life work already printed in their heads.
> 
> If I look around me, I see many different approaches: some don't test actively but do pick based on some criteria that they might not even be aware of, some only take a pup if they can get first or second pick, some rely entirely on the breeder, some get the one with the biggest head, and others do more or less extensive tests, ranging from just throwing an unknown object into the area they pups are in to taking one outside to their car. Basically, they just do what makes them feel right about their choice, so they can go home with a pup that they are willing to give a chance and invest in (whether it's the best possible or personally best suited pup or not).
> 
> If you don't go home with a pup that you feel confident about, you don't stand a chance anyway. People are biased, and whatever will happen, you'll always be thinking: you see, I was right, this isn't the right dog. regardless of what the dog is or does, and regardless of how you handle it, the preconception is there.
> 
> Same with KNPV clubs: there are clubs where people just tend to go for the same (couple of) bloodlines, because they know the pros and cons and (at least think) they know how to handle them easily. In other clubs the landscape is more mixed for whatever reason. Maybe at some clubs they particluarly don't want those same bloodlines for another reason. But regardless, most of them take them to trial and many get sold to end up working somewhere. Probably the people that buy them are dumb then
> 
> Here, when people start making all kinds of exaggerations on the qualities of their dogs, we just smile, even when it's not nearly as extreme as what we can read here about superstud #297 that only produces extreme this and extreme that. Maybe it's because the country is so tiny and distances so short, but here everybody knows that dogs are not perfect, that they never have been, that they all need to be trained, that all kinds of things can go wrong and that even the best dogs have their issues and peculiarities. So what?
> 
> And then back to testing: how can you be so sure that what you expose them to with your test is actually the first time? What if you have 4th pick and the others have done the same? What are you actually testing?


to import a puppy from holland to australia , (assuming the puppy costs 350 euro), adds up to 7300 euro approx. a working line german shepherd here costs between 1400 and 2500 euro, same for malinois. if pups cost the same in holland i have a feeling people might feel they need to be more "sure" of what they are taking home  or maybe dutch knpv trainers all happen to be rich as well, in which case throw around as much money as you want.

nervy pups may be able to get titled in sports (knpv is a sport after all) but im assuming for high level police and military dogs, the nerves will show at the end of the day, no matter how much band aids you used to cover them up


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## Joby Becker

Michael Murphy said:


> to import a puppy from holland to australia , (assuming the puppy costs 350 euro), adds up to 7300 euro approx. a working line german shepherd here costs between 1400 and 2500 euro, same for malinois. if pups cost the same in holland i have a feeling people might feel they need to be more "sure" of what they are taking home  or maybe dutch knpv trainers all happen to be rich as well, in which case throw around as much money as you want.
> 
> nervy pups may be able to get titled in sports (knpv is a sport after all) but im assuming for high level police and military dogs, the nerves will show at the end of the day, no matter how much band aids you used to cover them up


Michael.

how can you test nerves in a small puppy? that will accurately depict what the nerves will be like in an adult dog?

what would you consider band aids used to "cover up" bad nerves?


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## Gillian Schuler

Ellen,

Thank you.

That was one of the best comments on "choosing a pup" that I have read.

Your comment on being the 4th one to pick out a pup and testing him was something I had never entertained and applies to the genetic or trained (this maybe being his 4th attempt!).

Toni and I went to see a good litter of pups (father Sid Haus Pixner) and I let Toni choose as this was to be his pup. He quickly singled out a pup (or vice versa!!) and at the second visit, these two were "mates for life". I had my doubts - Darach was a screaming monster and the girl that brought up the litter (she had the mother) said would we not want to cthange? No Toni didn't.

All our dogs were mine from the start, even the Fila Brasileiro who was intended for Toni. At six months, I whipped him one when Toni called him and once or twice after. He became Toni's dog.
Probably an opportune time regarding age.

The Sid Haus Pixner pup was Toni's from the start. I didn't even have a look-in. However I taught him the rudiments of dog sport and, after a nerve-wracking start, had him tracking and eventually doing an obedience routine, far better than my dog's.

Protection was very serious. 

It's a pity he had to be put to sleep because of a tumour so early. I found it easier to work with him than with my own GSD when he finally considered that it might be advantageous to work for his living!

This is a strange post, I know but shows that the bond was there with Toni but the dog felt stable and happy to work with me without that bond.

Make of it what you want.


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## Michael Murphy

Joby Becker said:


> Michael.
> 
> how can you test nerves in a small puppy? that will accurately depict what the nerves will be like in an adult dog?
> 
> what would you consider band aids used to "cover up" bad nerves?


i would answer your question but i know you can answer it for yourself


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## Alice Bezemer

Michael Murphy said:


> i would answer your question but i know you can answer it for yourself


We want to hear your answer tho, Michael. Go on, share your answer with us.


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## Alice Bezemer

Ellen Piepers said:


> Funny how things are seen so black and white here  It's probably the culture clash, people taking things too lterally and generalizing whatever is being said. If two people active in KNPV say they don't test, all of a sudden everybody in KNPV doesn't test. What's more, all of a sudden all KNPV people don't ever see anything else but inside their KNPV box and apparently, KNPV really sucks. Sure, if that makes you happy.
> 
> What personally gets on my nerves is that many discussions over here are around how to get guarantees before you even start with a dog. Maybe that is the difference, here we know we can't get guarantees and we don't care either. They're not preprogrammed robots with both all KNPV programs and any possible real life work already printed in their heads.
> 
> If I look around me, I see many different approaches: some don't test actively but do pick based on some criteria that they might not even be aware of, some only take a pup if they can get first or second pick, some rely entirely on the breeder, some get the one with the biggest head, and others do more or less extensive tests, ranging from just throwing an unknown object into the area they pups are in to taking one outside to their car. Basically, they just do what makes them feel right about their choice, so they can go home with a pup that they are willing to give a chance and invest in (whether it's the best possible or personally best suited pup or not).
> 
> If you don't go home with a pup that you feel confident about, you don't stand a chance anyway. People are biased, and whatever will happen, you'll always be thinking: you see, I was right, this isn't the right dog. regardless of what the dog is or does, and regardless of how you handle it, the preconception is there.
> 
> Same with KNPV clubs: there are clubs where people just tend to go for the same (couple of) bloodlines, because they know the pros and cons and (at least think) they know how to handle them easily. In other clubs the landscape is more mixed for whatever reason. Maybe at some clubs they particluarly don't want those same bloodlines for another reason. But regardless, most of them take them to trial and many get sold to end up working somewhere. Probably the people that buy them are dumb then
> 
> Here, when people start making all kinds of exaggerations on the qualities of their dogs, we just smile, even when it's not nearly as extreme as what we can read here about superstud #297 that only produces extreme this and extreme that. Maybe it's because the country is so tiny and distances so short, but here everybody knows that dogs are not perfect, that they never have been, that they all need to be trained, that all kinds of things can go wrong and that even the best dogs have their issues and peculiarities. So what?
> 
> And then back to testing: how can you be so sure that what you expose them to with your test is actually the first time? What if you have 4th pick and the others have done the same? What are you actually testing?


Good post, Ellen.


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## Erik Berg

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Thanks for the links. The first admits that the puppy test had no correlation to what was tested or needed in the adult dog so not surprising the tests didn't have any predictive value. The second--good laundry list and close to what I look at. Also interesting that this one is on point for looking at puppy tests predictive of working police dog abilities. Will sit down and study this one more in depth as there are some added things that are interesting.
> T


The first study was also for servicedogs, meaning police/militarydogs. It´s corrrect they didn´t test a puppy the same way as the adult, due to the fact a puppy isn´t mature enough to have developed those traits, and I guess that fact combined with the different uppbringing made the puppytests not so usefull for predicting how the adult dog did in their selectiontest. There are differences among puppies but the puppybehvaiour isn´t linked to the adult dogs behaviour seems to be the conclusion.

Testing at older age, or stimulate/train the puppy in the right direction after the puppytest seems also be more predictive in regards to the more adult dog. None of these factors was involved in this study, so I guess we can´t for sure say how much of the adult dog is due to the results on puppytest and how much is the handling/training the dog from puppy till the age it´s supposed to pass a selectiontest or certification, when evaluation studies that sees a connection between puppytest and sucessfull policedog.



"Nerves" is also a broad term, being able to concentrate on a task, being able to calm down after something stressfull and react with a "clear" head in generall to different stimulus is the defintions I´m used to when evaluating nerves. I don´t know if nerves therefore is something you can predict in puppies to a large degree. Selecting the right parents who has what you look for seems maybe more important than the best puppy, due to the fact that not surprising it´s a genetic componet involved in the basic personality a dog has as an adult.

But yes, there are dogs from KNPV-lines or other lines that not pass a selectiontest for the police but still are good sportdogs, policedogs could also range between multipurpose or more specific jobs, so what is good or not is not always the same. Also there I suppose the handling of the dog could in some cases make some things worse that wouldn´t be so apperant by a different handler, but I suppose the handler can´t compensate for every shortage the dog may have.


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## Ellen Piepers

Michael, I understand the need for suitable dogs for a variety of jobs (and handlers). I also understand the financial risks you're facing. I wish there was a test that would guarantee succes, but I don't know of any.

The root causes of the problems lie elsewhere and they won't get solved by this obsession of getting the perfect test or perfect dog. If so, nobody would even bother importing dogs from over here.


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## Sarah Platts

Michael Murphy said:


> i would answer your question but i know you can answer it for yourself


Actually, I want to see your response too. It's not my answer but yours I am interested in learning. After all, mine could be wrong.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Erik Berg said:


> The first study was also for servicedogs, meaning police/militarydogs. It´s corrrect they didn´t test a puppy the same way as the adult, due to the fact a puppy isn´t mature enough to have developed those traits, and I guess that fact combined with the different uppbringing made the puppytests not so usefull for predicting how the adult dog did in their selectiontest. There are differences among puppies but the puppybehvaiour isn´t linked to the adult dogs behaviour seems to be the conclusion.
> 
> Testing at older age, or stimulate/train the puppy in the right direction after the puppytest seems also be more predictive in regards to the more adult dog. None of these factors was involved in this study, so I guess we can´t for sure say how much of the adult dog is due to the results on puppytest and how much is the handling/training the dog from puppy till the age it´s supposed to pass a selectiontest or certification, when evaluation studies that sees a connection between puppytest and sucessfull policedog.
> 
> 
> 
> "Nerves" is also a broad term, being able to concentrate on a task, being able to calm down after something stressfull and react with a "clear" head in generall to different stimulus is the defintions I´m used to when evaluating nerves. I don´t know if nerves therefore is something you can predict in puppies to a large degree. Selecting the right parents who has what you look for seems maybe more important than the best puppy, due to the fact that not surprising it´s a genetic componet involved in the basic personality a dog has as an adult.
> 
> But yes, there are dogs from KNPV-lines or other lines that not pass a selectiontest for the police but still are good sportdogs, policedogs could also range between multipurpose or more specific jobs, so what is good or not is not always the same. Also there I suppose the handling of the dog could in some cases make some things worse that wouldn´t be so apperant by a different handler, but I suppose the handler can´t compensate for every shortage the dog may have.


 
All the test shows you is genetic propensities. Its real easy to note how the puppy relates to his environment and how the adult relates to his environment. Despite handling and socialization, there will be subtle clues. Can you train around it? Sure. But it becomes a slippery slope if you keep adopting that attitude and breeding with that in mind. The first test only mentions an agitation threat as the adult test. Of course the puppy tests didn't relate so all you can say is that those puppy tests had o predictive value in terms of how the adult responds to a threat NOT all puppy tests are non-predictive of adult behaviors. 

As for 4th pick, not an issue. I'm about to look at a litter, assuming it takes and I'm selecting for someone that will have 3rd pick. So lets say out of a litter of 6, 2 are excluded. I'm looking for instinct, drive, solid nerves and structure/size for working. If I can't find that in the remaining 4, the person has the choice to wait for the next litter or take one of the 4. Not everyone is looking for the same thing. It is troublesome when you and the breeder like the same type of dog and there is only one of them . I'm usually looking for a bitch for me. Most people want males. Bottom line, you don't see a gotta have, you have to be prepared to wait. As for the testing, I take my own things to test with. I never use anything in the existing environment. 

T


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## Connie Sutherland

_"As for 4th pick, not an issue. I'm about to look at a litter, assuming it takes and I'm selecting for someone that will have 3rd pick. So lets say out of a litter of 6, 2 are excluded. I'm looking for instinct, drive, solid nerves and structure/size for working. "_


I read it that anything you expose the pup to, any test you administer, may have already been done by numbers one, two, and/or three ... meaning that it's not a new experience, and "new experience" may be a significant factor in a reaction test.

Again, though, that was just the way I read this:

" .... back to testing: how can you be so sure that what you expose them to with your test is actually the first time? What if you have 4th pick and the others have done the same? What are you actually testing?"


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Connie Sutherland said:


> _"As for 4th pick, not an issue. I'm about to look at a litter, assuming it takes and I'm selecting for someone that will have 3rd pick. So lets say out of a litter of 6, 2 are excluded. I'm looking for instinct, drive, solid nerves and structure/size for working. "_
> 
> 
> I read it that anything you expose the pup to, any test you administer, may have already been done by numbers one, two, and/or three ... meaning that it's not a new experience, and "new experience" may be a significant factor in a reaction test.
> 
> Again, though, that was just the way I read this:
> 
> " .... back to testing: how can you be so sure that what you expose them to with your test is actually the first time? What if you have 4th pick and the others have done the same? What are you actually testing?"


Since I keep losing posts. Dogs are specific and the conditioned pups don't seem to generalize. Not everyone tests. In fact, most don't. I'm also someone that breeders ask to test and/or evaluate. Whatever I've done with them, hasn't been done and it wasn't done by me. I've done heavily conditioned litters and the conditioning didn't hold up. I do my little 3 or 4 things and introduce something different into the environment including sound, and the genetics showed on everyone of them, much to the breeders' surprise. After they left the litter, they were very heavily conditioned and socialized. Stressed or something new and you can still see the genetics--if you are looking.

T


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## Joby Becker

For T. and others.

the tests for "nerves" in puppies will only expose obvious nerve issues that the puppy has, they will in no way determine the relative overall strength of the adult dog will be when compared to other dogs in various functions and training. 

What happens after passing initial nerve testing, which weeds out obviously flawed pups? 

life happens.........it is the culmination of the dogs life experiences and its abiltiy to deal with and overcome any issues that will ultimately decide whether that dog had "good nerves" or not, one dog raised and trained in one manner or performing one type of function, might appear to have good or great nerves to whomever owns that dog or handles him, and that same dog could also be looked at by someone else in a different situation and be a dog that turns out to not be strong enough in the nerve department.

This is what separates the puppies and dogs with good nerves, from the puppies and dogs with good nerves, if that makes any sense to anyone else.

I am not sure how we actually classify all the things that may develope in relation to "nerves", or how the other character traits influence them, such as "softness" or "drive" or "heart" or "courage" or "dominance" or "boldness", or "confidence", among others, in other peoples defintion structure, but in mine they can be a big part of what people call "nerves".

for instance, if you take a dog that is a "soft" dog, meaning not a "hard" dog that is able to bounce back from negative experiences well, that was a puppy that showed great nerves as a puppy in testing, once life and training gets ahold of him, his nerves may not look to be nearly as strong as they did as a puppy, and he is not able to bounce back well and overcome.

take another a puppy that shows "good nerves" that is picked to train for french ringsport, something happens to the puppy in a trial, training, or life in general that causes that puppy to develope a stick issue, I cannot really say as to what might attribute to that in peoples minds, but "nerves" sure seems like it might be in there somewhere.

another pup is picked as a puppy with good nerves, passes all the tests, is put into training for PSA, NVBK, or mondio ring, and just cannot perform as he should due to the environmental distractions as an adult.

another good nerved pup is picked and is put into training for whatever sport, and is worked with to be groomed to make it to the top level and be on the podium, but he falls apart unde the rigors of the training program itself, or competition life.

same situation as above, pups passes test has good nerves, but just never can make it, once the precision and control is attempted to be put into the dog that is required to get it to the top.

take that same top level competition dog, that is good with gunfire on trial field, and put him in a battle field, and his "nerve" may not appear to be so good, or take him out and do high level obedience in a violent thunderstorm at night, or by your side skeet shooting with a 12 gauge, his nerves may not look nearly as good.

take 3 good dogs that are MWD, with good nerves as pups and adults, that experience similar events, and 2 of them are taken out of service because they can no longer be considered reliable, is that a "nerve issue"?

take a puppy that shows good nerves as a pup, is titled in FR, works like a machine on the field, but is wary of certain wierd things it encounters in his life, and is only ok with them once he puts his mouth on them, is that a nerve issue?

take a strong nerved pup, that is selected trained up and put into service as a dual purpose dog, but is unable to stay on task and work solidly out in the field for a long service life, is that "nerves".

take that pup that had good nerves, and got his SCH III title, and then crosstrain him for something else, will his "nerves" still be considered good if after a bad experience in training or real life, he refuses to co-operate or participate...say refuses march into that dark forest or basement and engage a threatening, menacing person that means to do him harm? or while there he decides to bail? is that "nerves"?

what about a pup that passes nerve testing, that just never can seem to settle down in a car, or gets car sick? is that "nerves", what about being on a boat? if a dog is supposed to be working from a boat, but just cant stay on task? is that nerves? lack of drive? 

how much influence do these other things have? HOW ABOUT DRIVE? does drive influence nerves? or appearance of nerves? other traits? 

what about exposure? experience? training styles or mistakes? 

if I take 3 pups that tested fine for "nerves" and toss them in a kennel for the first year, do very little with them, and 2 of them are unable to be trained and function properly as adults the way I need them to, but the other one is perfectly fine, is it a "nerve" thing that made the difference? and if it is, did all 3 pups really have "good nerves"? 

if a club uses harsh training methods and 2 dogs in the club dont make it, is that a nerve issue? what if those same pups were not trained using those harsh methods and made it just fine? 

what if a decoy gets ahead of himself, tries some cowboy shit and breaks one dog down, and the dog has a major setback, or something happens it cant ever really get passed, but another dog shows no lasting effects in the same scenario? is that nerves?

take 2 pups, with good nerves, let them grow up some, put leashes on them, take them to the beach for the first time, drag then both into the surf, and make them swim to a boat...if one decides he is not really gonna like going into the ocean again, but the other loves it? is that a nerve issue?, what if you took that same pup that decided he hates water was introduced to it by tossing a toy into the surf instead? 

take 2 pups that nerve test good, what if the exposure is lacking, things are introduced incorrectly, or a dog does not get ideal training, and fails? is that nerves? what if the other dog does fine? is that nerves? and if they both are indicative of nerves, how does one puppy with good nerves do well as an adult and seem basically unaffected, and the other puppy with good nerves not adjust well at all? or outright fail? 

take 2 pups with equal "nerve", but one has much lower drive...when they are adults, does anyone think that one might appear to have worse nerves? because he does not have the higher amount of drive to carry him through certain things?

what about using FORCE methods in training? do nerves have anything to do with how well a dog will respond to those? compulsion? 

what about testing an adult dog that tested good for nerves as a pup, that has never been lifted off of the ground as a puppy or young dog in bitework? give him a bite, lift him up, he gets squirrely, vocal, or lets go? is that a "nerve" thing? what if another dog that never was lifted has no problems with being lifted? is that a nerve thing? a drive thing? 

what if any of these examples the dogs can overcome the problems with exposure to an acceptable degree? what if they cant? is that nerve? what about the dogs that dog just as well without hardly any exposure? is that nerve?

what about a pup that tests good for nerves, that grows into a dog that snaps at a handler for a strong correction or other things? is that due to "nerves"? I dont know, some people sure seem to think so though. 

what about a dog that growls during bitework? nerves? what if that dogs bitework career is far different than another dog? what about a dog that never really growled much at all, but after a time is growly? 

what about a dogs abiltiy to deal with stress? extreme stress in the short term? long-term accumualtive stress? is that a "nerve" thing? and if so, how can you test that as a puppy? you cant. a pup can test great for nerves and be a basket case by 5 yrs old.

I think nerve is a term that is very unclear, or overused, and often works in conjunction with or is dependent on a lot of other traits in a dog, and outside influences and experiences.

pups with good nerves, surely may not turn out as adults with good nerves, depending on what life throws at them, and even adults with "good nerves" can be put into situations where someone might certainly say thier nerves appear to be lacking.

is nerves ability to overcome stress? or deal with a lifetime of stress? if so, and a dog is not stressed very much, or undergo tons of stress over a lifetime, how can you say if he has good nerves or not?

nerves are a sliding scale to me, like was said before, say 0-100 or whatever, I still say it is pretty impossible to predict what an adult dogs "nerves" will be like, the way most people look at them, by testing a puppy. There are a lot of variables, and unless you are very familiar with the family of dogs, and those combinations are known to produce good nerves for whatever is planned for them, testing a puppies nerve is not really indicative of whether that pup will be an adult that people will say has good nerves or not. I also think that a pup with good nerves, or even a dog with what appears to be good nerves, can also be turned into a dog that does not appear to have good nerves at all, and maybe quite easily, if compared to another pup or dog that has "good nerves".

this is why I tend to look at nerves in the way as described by Armin. keeps it more simple for me in my head, although I often also do myself fall into labeling things to "nerves" like most other people, that may or may not fit Armins way of looking at it. ( http://siriusdog.com/schutzhund-sport-dogs-winkler2 )

Michael or anyone else? how can you "test nerves" in a puppy? and accurately predict that the adult dog will have "good nerves" for whatever life he will lead, or experiences he may go through? 

YOU CAN'T... (in my opinion)

and how many of those other traits looked at in dogs have a "nerve" component to them?

what if I took 5 "good nerved pups" and trained and exposed them to everything the same way for the most part, very well, and 2 of them as adults were not close enough to the ideal for whatever work? did all those 5 pups have good nerves? or did 3 of them have "good enough nerves"

What if I took 5 pups that had "good nerves" and didnt do hardly crap with them, then pulled them out as adults and trained them, and 4 of them were not workable? could not adjust, did all 5 have good nerves? or only 1 have "good enough" nerves? and what if I was to say that only 1 had good nerves? would I be wrong? obviously that 1 pup had much better nerves than the other 4 that failed, even though those other pups had good nerves too as puppies.

What if one dogs mind is almost like an impenetrable fortress after exposure and training, and others that undergo the same fall far short of that dog, but might be fine for lots of things? even if they all had good nerves as 5-6-7-8 week old pups? did they all have good nerves?


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## Joby Becker

Terrasita.

you have said on here multiple times on other threads;

that you do not use corrections in training or try to avoid them
that you also do not do bitework much if at all
that try to avoid stress in training as much as possible.

if this is the case, where are you drawing all of these conclusions on nerves in puppies and dogs from? what are nerves to you?


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## Meg O'Donovan

Wow, Joby, the long post was formidable. Lots of good "what ifs". Thank you for taking the time to type it down for others to consider. 
I've never had the privilege of picking a dog from a litter. I have been happy with the dogs I got, usually rejected by others. Guess I'm lucky.
Someone said to me this spring,
"Train the dog in front of you." 
No one, dogs or human, is perfect and that is what makes life interesting.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Joby Becker said:


> Terrasita.
> 
> you have said on here multiple times on other threads;
> 
> that you do not use corrections in training or try to avoid them
> that you also do not do bitework much if at all
> that try to avoid stress in training as much as possible.
> 
> if this is the case, where are you drawing all of these conclusions on nerves in puppies and dogs from? what are nerves to you?


Primarily, nerves to me are the ability to perform regardless of what is in the environment or change of environment. Also related to nerves for me is change of environment. The stress in the environment comes from the interaction with the stock. I worked some sheep at a different facility and dog went in bah ram ewe and a sheep rolled her. She got back up and went to work and didn't quit until she had accomplished the job. That's the kind of stress they can encounter--fight stock. The stock is ALWAYS pressuring the dog. I'm sure some protection trainers spend a lot of time dealing with the dog's conflict with his handler. I don't want the dog in conflict with me so try to train without me stresses the dog or putting him in conflict. Other stresses can be geographics--fences, tight spaces, obstacles, etc. I eliminate from an environmental nerves standpoint three areas when I'm looking at puppies. These are quite obvious and I'm not looking for the one that recovers. What that translates into for the adult dog is the one that doesn't change just because the trial field changes or something in the environment changes like tons of people and noise. I haven't had to spend time conditioning those dogs to different environments. When you test, you watch the first reaction, not the fifth or sixth. I take my young dogs out and about not to condition them but to see how they respond to different places and environment at different ages and compare to what I thought when they were baby puppies. I also look at how the puppy handles and just overall confidence. Some of this is intuitive feel and hard to put into words in terms of how the pup relates to me. Watch the eyes and feel the body language as you handle them in different positions. I like intelligence. I like the ones that are making eye contact and trying to communicate. Of course how you train and develop the puppy influences the final outcome. I'm very careful as to what I introduce at one age or stage of development. A lot of stuff they won't see until they hit that first leg of maturity around age 3. I find they go through all sorts of stages until then and you can screw them up if you aren't careful. My somewhat environmentally nervy dog will be 2 in August. There are things I wouldn't dare do with her until she is 3. There isn't a whole lot of room for error with this type of dog. She has the makings of a fantastic point trial dog. Farm dog? So far, I doubt it but we'll see and it will probably be more like age 5 when she comes into her full genetic confidence. That has nothing to do with what I want to start with ideally or what I may want to breed. A nervy stock dog is the same as a nervy ______________--great at home and can be a total disaster if you trial him off his home field. You will see evidence of stress/displacement. Furthermore, when the ewe or ram stares her down, will she step up to the plate or fade off the pressure--flight? Or I'm in the middle of a trial run at one facility and the train goes by or a gate chain clangs? With some of the BCs, they are nervy with people and environment and their stock traits are separate. Hasn't been my experience in protection/guard/herding breeds. We'll see how she fares. She is what she is and she's not going anywhere. Its an interesting mix--confident with people vs. stressed with environment changes. In peak drive, like what has been said about the Mals, she can be hard as nails but stock isn't all peak prey drive. For me, I do some pretty basic so called testing. For my next GSD, I'll add a couple of more things. For me its about what is ideal.

Now, I've asked you the same question repeatedly. What nerves are you referring to that you say appear fine as a puppy only not to be so in adulthood.

I find it hard to believe that people who breed purpose bred dogs have no way of distinguishing their puppies so that they have a feel for what will work and what won't. But so be it. 


T


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## Terrasita Cuffie

And really Joby, I couldn't wade through any more what ifs that you haven't experienced. For each of your hypotheticals, did you personally experience those with the dog? The trouble with all of them is that you are missing some very key information. You recently raised a litter of puppies. How did you distinguish between Yoda and Quig Non or any of the others? How do you match and place puppies when the buyers tell you what they want? I don't think this thread says much for selective breeding and letting the breeder pick--based on what???

T


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## Joby Becker

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Now, I've asked you the same question repeatedly. What nerves are you referring to that you say appear fine as a puppy only not to be so in adulthood.
> 
> I find it hard to believe that people who breed purpose bred dogs have no way of distinguishing their puppies so that they have a feel for what will work and what won't. But so be it.
> T


T, I just gave you a whole bunch of examples of what can change from puppy to adulthood in regards to nerves, all of which could be construed by many people as nerve issues. 

why do you think puppies are a crapshoot? puppies that do not come from proven combinations that show good deal of success for whatever it is, are even greater crapshoots, regardless of how they test as puppies...

Also, I said that knowledge of the dogs' families based on prior breeding and matching results is *the most* important things in determining what the nerves will be like as an adult, you are talking about a breeder looking at their own puppies and attempting to distinguish which ones may work for them and which ones wont, which implies the knowledge I am talking about...

The original topic was nerve testing of puppies, and your issue with what I was saying about a puppy that is nerve tested and appears to have good nerves that does end up having issues that most people will refer to as nerve issues, for which I gave quite a few things to think about.

so you are looking at nerves as basically only an environmental thing? and the ability to "perform" in any environment? OK fine...I can live with that too.

If we restrict it to just that topic and forget the multiitude of other things that most people attribute to nerves.....

*How can you test that as a puppy?*


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Joby Becker said:


> T, I just gave you a whole bunch of examples of what can change from puppy to adulthood in regards to nerves, all of which could be construed by many people as nerve issues.
> 
> why do you think puppies are a crapshoot? puppies that do not come from proven combinations that show good deal of success for whatever it is, are even greater crapshoots, regardless of how they test as puppies...
> 
> Also, I said that knowledge of the dogs' families based on prior breeding and matching results is *the most* important things in determining what the nerves will be like as an adult, you are talking about a breeder looking at their own puppies and attempting to distinguish which ones may work for them and which ones wont, which implies the knowledge I am talking about...
> 
> The original topic was nerve testing of puppies, and your issue with what I was saying about a puppy that is nerve tested and appears to have good nerves that does end up having issues that most people will refer to as nerve issues, for which I gave quite a few things to think about.
> 
> so you are looking at nerves as basically only an environmental thing? and the ability to "perform" in any environment? OK fine...I can live with that too.
> 
> If we restrict it to just that topic and forget the multiitude of other things that most people attribute to nerves.....
> 
> *How can you test that as a puppy?*


No, you gave a bunch of what if stories you've heard and/or made up with tons of missing information. I wanna know what you have raised developed and lived with. You whelped and raised a litter, how did you distinguish amongst them and then place them accordingly? You also can't follow along in any of these threads. I've never said puppies are a crap shoot. To the contrary. If I tested it and it passed, it was what I wanted. I have one here I didn't test. There are other things I like about her and I want to see if I can bring her through it. Like I said, I don't wash out anything I take home as mine or at least it doesn't leave here. I've about to spend 12-14 years with it and rely upon it. You want to play devils advocate. This is how I've selected and train my own and other dogs. Age 8-10 or even longer, they are still working in some capacity. I see how different traits develop over the course of a life time. Its not 50 hypotheticals. I don't have an issue. I asked you what nerves were tested as fine as a pup and then as an adult were not. You can't or won't answer. It could have been some educational information if you had the information. Is it because it is a hypothetical statement? You don't know how that puppy was tested or why its nerves were considered fine--based on what observations and how did they fall apart later. I'm interested in actual occurrences not for the hell of it volleyball. This is something that I've been interested in enough in that I've taken the time to actually do something, record the results and then retest later to see if it has any relevance--multiple litters. Its to eliminate those obvious flaws and know if they exist--just like you said--nothing more, nothing less. It doesn't cover up crap training or inability to read a dog.

Pedigree only tells you so much and that is if it breeds true. From my understanding with your litter you had two different types of pedigree families. Regardless when you are sitting there with 10 puppies in front of you, how do you make up in your mind which one goes where? I'm not talking about implied this or that either. As for how I test, its implied.

T


----------



## Joby Becker

Terrisita, (part 1)....

It is obvious you are not putting any thought into what I said in that post. You are not absorbing any of it. Either you are just ignoring my point or you just dont understand what I was trying to explain to you.

I would even venture to guess that you may be one of the only people that does not understand what I was trying to say.

IF ANYONE ELSE HERE DOES NOT UNDERSTAND POST #173 PLEASE SAY SO HERE, OR PM IF YOU DO NOT WISH TO POST PUBLICALLY.

You seem to be looking at this topic like you somehow have me boxed in a corner, or that I am not able to answer your questions, that is not the case at all.

I spent 1/2 hour making a post for you on the topic, all separated out, easy to read, explaining it. and you reply with a whopper run-on post hopping from point to counterpoint, changing the parameters of the discussion, admit you didnt even put much effort into reading and understanding it, attempt to discount everything I laid out in that post with a couple sentences making it seem like I was just making shit up..and then move on to the next question you want answered. 

how is it that I can receive PM's from others that know exactly what I am saying, and you seem not to have a clue about it? How is it that one experienecd, accomplished dogsport person can say that that post was one of the most eloquently explained and written, good posts they have ever read on a message board, and others understood it completely and are telling me not to bother trying to explain it anymore to you, and you just cant read it and even try to understand it? but yet think you deserve more answers?

If I want to talk about nerves of working dogs as a whole, of course I need to draw from other peoples experiences, raise a few questions to think about, in addition to my own personal experiences and observations. 

What I have raised and lived with and done with my dogs, is very limited in the big scope of the topic, how can I even begin to talk about doing whatever wherever with my dogs, I do what I do, others do things that are vastly different. On the topic of nerves, talking about working in ANY environment, would be futile using only my personal experiences, considering that there are many environments that I have not worked dogs in.

All of the variables you are looking for, the missing parts as you put it, insert anything you care to in there, my point will still be the same, if you read and comprehend what I was saying, which you have not even attempted to do.

Your scope of what you are trying to address as nerves is very finite, and also leaves lots of missing information open to interpretation. Most people would consider nerves a strong component all of those things I mentioned in the BLAH BLAH BLAH post as you seem to put it.

I have also even morphed my point to fit your scope of the discussion and asked you a very simple question, which you still did not answer in a way that lends credibility to what you are trying to say.

You are saying that you can pick a puppy that will work in any environment? by doing some sort of nerve test? and then using your personal experiences, saying that the dogs was what you wanted, as proof that you can test the nerves in a puppy and that determines what they will be able to do as an adult? I am saying that is impossible, becuase even though they work out for you, does not mean that they have the type of nerves that may be required for everyone else, that may do something very different with the dog.

I am following these threads perfectly, unlike you, apparently. I am the one that said puppies are a crap shoot, never said you said that.

Get some litters of GSD under your belt, test those GSD as puppies, by your theory, if they have "good nerves" as puppies, then they should all have the "nerve" required to ultimately perform on a battlfield, they should all have the nerve suitable for Dual Purpose Police work, or become National Champions in IPO, and hold up well for a long service life or sport career.

I am telling you that they wont, this is why many people that supply these dogs prefer to look at and evaluate young dogs and adults as opposed to puppies, and many people in sport look for older pups and dogs, even if the puppies pass the "nerve testing". This is due to the fact that puppies ARE a crapshoot. 

Nerve is one of the main reasons that dogs get washed out of a program or taken out of service, it may be the single most thing that makes a dog unsuitable for something, if looked at like most people look at it. Whether that be service work, or high level sport work. Nerves are a major lynch pin for sure in many areas concerning dogs.

You are using your own 6th sense or whatever to describe your experiences, testing nerves is small puppies, and how they compare with the dogs that are raised in your personal experiences.

You said you look at the first reactions...not the 4th or 5th or whatever.

Lets think about that for a minute.
I have come accross a few old time "dogmen" types of people, mostly involved in American Bulldogs, Pitbulls, Mollosers, and terrier types.

There are many different philosophies that certain people have about dogs, and specifically about the "nerves of dogs". Some of whom seem to be in line with your thinking. They observe the first reactions not the 2nd, 3rd or 5th.

Some of those people are fairly extreme in thier selection process and process to choose dogs that they wish to breed, based on consideration to nerves among other things.

I have met several people that have that same sort of philosophy, that I really cannot argue against.

The practice that those people used to select the dogs were as follows. 

Of course they took a good look at the pups, and anything that showed major faults or nerve problems were euathanized immediately.

Once the puppies were thought of as not really faulty to a point of being euthanized, they then were taken out to the dog yard, and given there own doghouse, and chain.

The dogs were never taken off of the property, were not socialized, and were not exposed to much at all, they were fed and had water, and got some interaction with the people that cared for them.

The dogs grew/grow up on the chain. Sometimes left there for the first year, sometimes for 2 years or so. That is their life for that time period, on a chain, in a dog yard.

Those dogs are then taken off of that chain, and then borught out into the world and started training and exposing them to things to get a picture of what the dog is like.

This is obviously not a practice that most people do, or even agree with, but if looking at nerves, and thinking about looking at them at say 5 weeks because they are basically raw and unexposed at that age, I cant really argue that doing the same thing at 1 or 2 years old, is a far better way to look at those natural, unexposed traits in a dog.

I was told by more than one "dogman" that if you really want to see what is at the core of the dog, put it on the chain for 2 years, and then pull it out and start working with it. To this day i cannot argue with that point of view, and if you do this, as some people do, you will certainly see the differences in "nerve" of the dogs as adults.

How can I begin to argue with the theory, having seen dogs that grew up this way come off of the chain as very solid strong nerved dogs, and others that were basket cases, even though they were all fine as puppies?

You want examples from my own experiences? OK. I will give you a few.

I have looked at lots of litters that I think should have not ever been released to the public, puppies that never should have been born or sold, in my opinion, of many different types of dogs/breeds. I used to train a lot of dogs for people, and did also go out and help many people select puppies, or look at litters of all types from toy breeds to rottweilers to herders to bulldogs, terriers and so on for pets, and for "working dogs".

The bulk of my friendships have come about becuase of involvement with dogs, and I have know many people involved in the training and breeding of dogs of many types for various purposes, from a decent spectrum of breed types. I have worked with and had a good chance to interact with lots and lots of dogs and puppies.

For a good amount of years I traveled all around the states looking at litters and adults, "testing" puppies and adults, in a rare breed or two that I became interested in, often doing so at places and from people that did not work thier stock, or have much knowledge of working dogs in general, due to the rarity of the breeds I was interested in, sure some were from "working" dogs though of course. I was looking for suitable breeding stock mostly, for a small group of people involved in a "breeding pool".

I never bought a puppy or young dog that showed any obvious major faulty nerves, but did find that many, actually most of the dogs we picked up ending up not having the type of "nerves" that we were interested in. We did come accross some dogs with superb nerves though as well, in my opinion.

I owned 2 malinois before getting my current dogs, both dogs were fine as puppies, both dogs ended up with nerve issues (in my mind anyhow), this was with good exposure and socialization. 

This adult female we got as a potential breeder, the dog was raised in a kennel, without much foundation to speak of, and no real exposure to anything. I did this on purpose, to explore the dog and what the dog was genetically on its own, not what it would be like if I pulled out all the stops and did all kinds of things with the dog, being that it was the first dog of this type of breeding I have owned, and did not have major plans for the dog, aside from evaluating the dog as a potential breeding dog.

I have gotten a lot of grief by admitting this, but I did what I did, to see what I wanted to see, and I saw it.

Terrisita, on the topic of testing puppies (that I have bred) for people, picking them out for whatever for whoever,* nerve testing* is* NOT* a part of that for me at all, and* NEVER *has been. 

This is because if I see confidence issues in small pups, or pups that "fail" or whatever, in anything that I really am looking at in the way of "nerves" that I can really ascertain, I euthanize the puppies immediately, I do not let them leave. 

And yes, over my lifetime I have put down more puppies than most people have, being that I have mostly dealt with offbreeds and rarebreeds, and got lots of dogs that did not come with a wealth of background from proven breedings of proven great dogs, and have done a fair amount of experimental pairings..


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## Joby Becker

Part 2:

Since you seem to be stuck on the litter of pups that Yoda and the others were from I will talk about that litter a little bit here for you, even though I have pretty much already told you via PM that I was not really behind that litter at all, you seem to be goading me to air some dirty laundry or something. I have already told you I was not happy with the results of that experimental breeding that I did not really want to do.

I have seen your questions, and was NOT answering them, because most of what I have to say should not really be said publicly, not that I cant or wont answer...but I will expound a little on that topic for you I guess, in the interest of disclosure, since you are like a dog with a bone on the subject. 

With that particular litter of puppies, I did not select or choose ANY puppies for the people that got them. none of them. The people ultimately chose the puppies that they wanted, based on seeing them, doing thier "testing" in person, or looking at them on video, and discussing the pups with us. There were a couple that I thought would fit with a couple peoples experience and what they wanted to do with them, a little better than others. Qui-gon's owner picked him herself, and it just so happened that he was the one that we thought would work out best for her.

Even though this is way OFFTRACK from this thread, I will continue on. The selection of the pups, and what we thought would serve who the best was not based on ANYTHING to do with the type of nerves you are talking about, it had to do with the overal character, and expression of traits, like the drives, the attitudes, the litter and people interaction, and the behaviors that the individuals showed, not the nerves.

I had confered with the breeder that we got the female from who implored upon me to not release the pups if nerve issues were readily evident in the puppies, which I agreed with, and told him they would be euthanized if I saw major issues.

That breeder took a look at the male dogs pedigree when we went to pick up the puppy from him. He took one look at the pedigree, without even seeing the dog and said he personally would never breed that dog, based solely on his knowledge of what dogs in the lineage has produced in the past. Even stating, that he would not breed the dog, even if it was the best individual dog he ever came accross, because of nerve issues that were present in some of the lines that produced that dog in his experiences.

Fast forward a couple years, after a couple failed breeding attempts with what I would consider, and others considered a real stud quality dog for the type of dogs I was interested in producing, I decided to allow the breeding to take place with the male dog owned by the co-owner of the female. The same dog that the breeder we got the female looked at, and reviewed the pedigree.

Although I was the one that whelped the litter, I was not involved in the sale of the litter much at all. I was not really behind the breeding, was against the idea from the start, even telling the co-owner of the female that if the plan was to breed the pup we were getting to the male she owned, that I was ready to go home without a pup, since the co-ownership deal was me having physical ownership of the female, after hearing what the more experienced breeder of these types of dogs had to say about the dog in question and his pedigree. I reared the litter, did some things with them, exposed them to certain things, without going whole hog like some other breeders may do, just a basic decent rearing, in my home and yard here.

The pups went off of my property at 7 weeks for the first time. They were confident and I did take a peek at "nerve" testing, and the pups were ok, there was a little variety in the litter, a couple were more confident than others, in various surroundings, with various things, all were fine with loud noises and other key things I was looking at.

I saw nothing in the pups that made me want to euthanize them on the spot, so they lived. Most them got sold, for a price that I thought was too high, as an experimental breeding, with no guarantees, that I was not really expecting to turn out to be superstar dogs. 

The one pup that did get sold to a friend of a friend, I gave my personal guarantee to the guy, even though as a co-owner litter deal they were sold without guarantees.

A couple of the puppies went to people that were involved in sport training, and a few to people involved in the raising and training of dogs for police service work, and others went to people intersted in other things such as protection work, scentwork and agility/OB.

Some of the pups did not get sold, I decided to hold on to one, just to get a feel for what was produced, so I picked Yoda, who as a young pup, showed the most drive, and for whatever reasons was not chosen by other people. I had zero intentions on keeping him long term, becuase dogs I end up keeping I have pretty high standards for, and since I was not behind the breeding in the first place, I certainly was not interested in breeding Yoda, and was not expecting him to be top notch.

I kept Yoda for a while, and did not go out of my way to really put tons of work into him either, but did alot more with him than I did with my adult female. I did put him up for sale, after atime and got a good amount of interest in him, coulda sold him..After taking a good stock of him though, I decided it would not be right to sell him, in good conscience as he was not really up to par with what dogs like that should be like, in the nerves department, even if someone else might be happy with him.

I did not do a whole lot with Yoda, took him for walks, played with him, did some drive building, prey and hunt. Did not go over the top in exposing him to everything I could, or make a concerted effort to socialize him to the best of my abilities, I was a little lazy with him I will admit that much, but he was not isolated or sheltered, just a normal rasing of a dog. After seeing a few things in him that were too much for me to accept, I called the co-owner and told her I was going to euthanized him unless she wanted him. She seemed a little shocked about it, and I explained to her the issues I was having with him, She scrambled and found him a home quickly and off he went. There was I am sure some thinking going on as to what I did to cause the problems.

The guy that ended up getting him liked him well enough, even though he was supposed to give him to a friend, he decided to keep him. He liked the dog, I got some emails here and there from different people telling me that they worked him and liked him, that he was gonna be a good dog, gave me "props" for what I put into him...  the guy worked with him a lot and got him over the hump with most of the things I saw. I knew the dog was going to be fine in the bitework, his drives were awesome as a pup, and the few sleeve bites I gave him were impressive by my own personal standards, with his attitude and other things he showed, I am pretty sure I could have made him a gorilla in the bitework, but knew he was not up to par for a police service type dog or great sport type dog in his genetic make-up, which is what I think is a reasonable function for the type of dog I want to produce when breeding this particular female.

After a short time, I found out about several of the other puppies that people were not real happy with, due to "nerve issues". Even the guy that got my pick pup, who someone else say the same weekend it was sold, and talked about on here before as being a VERY confident puppy, that was a great pup, ended up moving him, due to nerve issuses. The one that were purchased for ringsport was washed, I believe, the ones that went to the police dog guys ended up being moved as well due to nerve issues.

One can speculate about the causes for all of this, I did not go over the top with exposing the pups to everything under the sun when they were small, they never left my house until they were 6 weeks, and never left my small yard until they were 7 weeks. I did not do tons with Yoda either, but the guy that got him, said from what he knew, Yoda turned out better than the other ones he saw, which were 3 or 4 other ones, that people actually did do more with than I did with Yoda. There are still people that have the pups they picked, and they do like them, 4 for sure that I know of, a couple pet/home protection dogs, an OB/agility dog that dabbles in herding testing and a little bitework, and one that does some bitework and detection type work. I think that some were actually replaced for people, even without guarantees stated, because of the prices paid for them, but am not sure, becuase I was basically a silent unwilling parnter in the whole deal, from the decision to do the breeding to the price sold for, due to a difficult co-ownership, and have not seeked out infromation or contact with the litter to any real degree. I put my name on one pup that was sold, and am really glad that the guy likes the dog personally, I like him well enough too, but havent seen enough of him to say whether I would want to own him or not.

I do not have all of those dogs to look at now, but I can say with reasonable certainty that the litter was dissappointing to me personally, as I expected it to be in all honesty.

Even though several of the people are quite happy with the dogs they got, this is one of those litters that in my opinion should not have been done. The information was provided to us the day we got the female, that the breeding would be a failure most likely by some peoples standards, by a person that was pretty knowledgable about the dogs lineages, if that particular breeding was done. It ended up being done, and produced less than desirable results, that much is for sure. Which was fully expected by that person, and as an extension myself.

What was done with the pups, what they went through and all the specifics is irrelevant to me, most of them were shotty in the nerve department overall. EVEN THOUGH THEY WERE FINE AS SMALL PUPS. 

None of the pups turned out to be absolute nerve bags or super duper shitty I dont think, but quite a few had more issues than people with higher goals for them wanted to work through, and casued them to decide on washing them out, even if they might be fine for someone else.

I realize that more could have been done with the small pups, and that I could have put many hours into working with the one I kept to give him more of a chance to be successful, but they had a more than adequate rearing in the litter, that is for sure. 

I also realize that if I tossed them in a kennel on a rural property, and raised them like my female, or put them on a chain for 2 years, and raised them like some bullbreed/terrier/molloser type guys might do, they would never have have amounted to much at all, and would most likely be worthless, most of them had nerve issues even with good upbringings from experienced working dog people. Even though they tested fine as small pups, they did not have strong nerve sets, which became quite evident with some of them when they were maturing. 

I understand the differences in what it takes to raise a strong bulldog, or EBT, or a mailinois or dutchie, for work, the differences in their temperments, I am not a foolish person. I have raised and sold quite a few dogs of various types, and had litters and sold pups, and have worked with and helped train many others. There are for sure some differences in what they need in the areas of nerves, exposure, experience and training. 

strong nerves are strong nerves, and you cannot test a small puppy for strong nerves and be certain that he will be a great adult dog based on what you see in a puppy, as far as nerves go, although you cetainly can see weaker nerves, that much is for sure. IT IS NOT PASS FAIL, it can be a FAIL..but the PASS will not be known until later on...if looking at a small puppy.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Uh huh, glad part 1 and part 2 works for you. I'll keep testing. You keep doing what you do.

T


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## Alice Bezemer

Joby Becker said:


> Part 2:
> 
> Since you seem to be stuck on the litter of pups that Yoda and the others were from I will talk about that litter a little bit here for you, even though I have pretty much already told you via PM that I was not really behind that litter at all, you seem to be goading me to air some dirty laundry or something. I have already told you I was not happy with the results of that experimental breeding that I did not really want to do.
> 
> I have seen your questions, and was NOT answering them, because most of what I have to say should not really be said publicly, not that I cant or wont answer...but I will expound a little on that topic for you I guess, in the interest of disclosure, since you are like a dog with a bone on the subject.
> 
> With that particular litter of puppies, I did not select or choose ANY puppies for the people that got them. none of them. The people ultimately chose the puppies that they wanted, based on seeing them, doing thier "testing" in person, or looking at them on video, and discussing the pups with us. There were a couple that I thought would fit with a couple peoples experience and what they wanted to do with them, a little better than others. Qui-gon's owner picked him herself, and it just so happened that he was the one that we thought would work out best for her.
> 
> Even though this is way OFFTRACK from this thread, I will continue on. The selection of the pups, and what we thought would serve who the best was not based on ANYTHING to do with the type of nerves you are talking about, it had to do with the overal character, and expression of traits, like the drives, the attitudes, the litter and people interaction, and the behaviors that the individuals showed, not the nerves.
> 
> I had confered with the breeder that we got the female from who implored upon me to not release the pups if nerve issues were readily evident in the puppies, which I agreed with, and told him they would be euthanized if I saw major issues.
> 
> That breeder took a look at the male dogs pedigree when we went to pick up the puppy from him. He took one look at the pedigree, without even seeing the dog and said he personally would never breed that dog, based solely on his knowledge of what dogs in the lineage has produced in the past. Even stating, that he would not breed the dog, even if it was the best individual dog he ever came accross, because of nerve issues that were present in some of the lines that produced that dog in his experiences.
> 
> Fast forward a couple years, after a couple failed breeding attempts with what I would consider, and others considered a real stud quality dog for the type of dogs I was interested in producing, I decided to allow the breeding to take place with the male dog owned by the co-owner of the female. The same dog that the breeder we got the female looked at, and reviewed the pedigree.
> 
> Although I was the one that whelped the litter, I was not involved in the sale of the litter much at all. I was not really behind the breeding, was against the idea from the start, even telling the co-owner of the female that if the plan was to breed the pup we were getting to the male she owned, that I was ready to go home without a pup, since the co-ownership deal was me having physical ownership of the female, after hearing what the more experienced breeder of these types of dogs had to say about the dog in question and his pedigree. I reared the litter, did some things with them, exposed them to certain things, without going whole hog like some other breeders may do, just a basic decent rearing, in my home and yard here.
> 
> The pups went off of my property at 7 weeks for the first time. They were confident and I did take a peek at "nerve" testing, and the pups were ok, there was a little variety in the litter, a couple were more confident than others, in various surroundings, with various things, all were fine with loud noises and other key things I was looking at.
> 
> I saw nothing in the pups that made me want to euthanize them on the spot, so they lived. Most them got sold, for a price that I thought was too high, as an experimental breeding, with no guarantees, that I was not really expecting to turn out to be superstar dogs.
> 
> The one pup that did get sold to a friend of a friend, I gave my personal guarantee to the guy, even though as a co-owner litter deal they were sold without guarantees.
> 
> A couple of the puppies went to people that were involved in sport training, and a few to people involved in the raising and training of dogs for police service work, and others went to people intersted in other things such as protection work, scentwork and agility/OB.
> 
> Some of the pups did not get sold, I decided to hold on to one, just to get a feel for what was produced, so I picked Yoda, who as a young pup, showed the most drive, and for whatever reasons was not chosen by other people. I had zero intentions on keeping him long term, becuase dogs I end up keeping I have pretty high standards for, and since I was not behind the breeding in the first place, I certainly was not interested in breeding Yoda, and was not expecting him to be top notch.
> 
> I kept Yoda for a while, and did not go out of my way to really put tons of work into him either, but did alot more with him than I did with my adult female. I did put him up for sale, after atime and got a good amount of interest in him, coulda sold him..After taking a good stock of him though, I decided it would not be right to sell him, in good conscience as he was not really up to par with what dogs like that should be like, in the nerves department, even if someone else might be happy with him.
> 
> I did not do a whole lot with Yoda, took him for walks, played with him, did some drive building, prey and hunt. Did not go over the top in exposing him to everything I could, or make a concerted effort to socialize him to the best of my abilities, I was a little lazy with him I will admit that much, but he was not isolated or sheltered, just a normal rasing of a dog. After seeing a few things in him that were too much for me to accept, I called the co-owner and told her I was going to euthanized him unless she wanted him. She seemed a little shocked about it, and I explained to her the issues I was having with him, She scrambled and found him a home quickly and off he went. There was I am sure some thinking going on as to what I did to cause the problems.
> 
> The guy that ended up getting him liked him well enough, even though he was supposed to give him to a friend, he decided to keep him. He liked the dog, I got some emails here and there from different people telling me that they worked him and liked him, that he was gonna be a good dog, gave me "props" for what I put into him...  the guy worked with him a lot and got him over the hump with most of the things I saw. I knew the dog was going to be fine in the bitework, his drives were awesome as a pup, and the few sleeve bites I gave him were impressive by my own personal standards, with his attitude and other things he showed, I am pretty sure I could have made him a gorilla in the bitework, but knew he was not up to par for a police service type dog or great sport type dog in his genetic make-up, which is what I think is a reasonable function for the type of dog I want to produce when breeding this particular female.
> 
> After a short time, I found out about several of the other puppies that people were not real happy with, due to "nerve issues". Even the guy that got my pick pup, who someone else say the same weekend it was sold, and talked about on here before as being a VERY confident puppy, that was a great pup, ended up moving him, due to nerve issuses. The one that were purchased for ringsport was washed, I believe, the ones that went to the police dog guys ended up being moved as well due to nerve issues.
> 
> One can speculate about the causes for all of this, I did not go over the top with exposing the pups to everything under the sun when they were small, they never left my house until they were 6 weeks, and never left my small yard until they were 7 weeks. I did not do tons with Yoda either, but the guy that got him, said from what he knew, Yoda turned out better than the other ones he saw, which were 3 or 4 other ones, that people actually did do more with than I did with Yoda. There are still people that have the pups they picked, and they do like them, 4 for sure that I know of, a couple pet/home protection dogs, an OB/agility dog that dabbles in herding testing and a little bitework, and one that does some bitework and detection type work. I think that some were actually replaced for people, even without guarantees stated, because of the prices paid for them, but am not sure, becuase I was basically a silent unwilling parnter in the whole deal, from the decision to do the breeding to the price sold for, due to a difficult co-ownership, and have not seeked out infromation or contact with the litter to any real degree. I put my name on one pup that was sold, and am really glad that the guy likes the dog personally, I like him well enough too, but havent seen enough of him to say whether I would want to own him or not.
> 
> I do not have all of those dogs to look at now, but I can say with reasonable certainty that the litter was dissappointing to me personally, as I expected it to be in all honesty.
> 
> Even though several of the people are quite happy with the dogs they got, this is one of those litters that in my opinion should not have been done. The information was provided to us the day we got the female, that the breeding would be a failure most likely by some peoples standards, by a person that was pretty knowledgable about the dogs lineages, if that particular breeding was done. It ended up being done, and produced less than desirable results, that much is for sure. Which was fully expected by that person, and as an extension myself.
> 
> What was done with the pups, what they went through and all the specifics is irrelevant to me, most of them were shotty in the nerve department overall. EVEN THOUGH THEY WERE FINE AS SMALL PUPS.
> 
> None of the pups turned out to be absolute nerve bags or super duper shitty I dont think, but quite a few had more issues than people with higher goals for them wanted to work through, and casued them to decide on washing them out, even if they might be fine for someone else.
> 
> I realize that more could have been done with the small pups, and that I could have put many hours into working with the one I kept to give him more of a chance to be successful, but they had a more than adequate rearing in the litter, that is for sure.
> 
> I also realize that if I tossed them in a kennel on a rural property, and raised them like my female, or put them on a chain for 2 years, and raised them like some bullbreed/terrier/molloser type guys might do, they would never have have amounted to much at all, and would most likely be worthless, most of them had nerve issues even with good upbringings from experienced working dog people. Even though they tested fine as small pups, they did not have strong nerve sets, which became quite evident with some of them when they were maturing.
> 
> I understand the differences in what it takes to raise a strong bulldog, or EBT, or a mailinois or dutchie, for work, the differences in their temperments, I am not a foolish person. I have raised and sold quite a few dogs of various types, and had litters and sold pups, and have worked with and helped train many others. There are for sure some differences in what they need in the areas of nerves, exposure, experience and training.
> 
> strong nerves are strong nerves, and you cannot test a small puppy for strong nerves and be certain that he will be a great adult dog based on what you see in a puppy, as far as nerves go, although you cetainly can see weaker nerves, that much is for sure. IT IS NOT PASS FAIL, it can be a FAIL..but the PASS will not be known until later on...if looking at a small puppy.


Joby, stop trying... I read and understood your posts, they were as clear to me as anything and I suspect most if not everyone got the idea by what you said.

It is useless to try and converse with someone who will only read what they want to read, who will pick up points they can argue just for the sake of arguement, and who will ignore giving answers on anything else.

I myself I was going to reply to Terrasita's post but decided against it because she understands fully what is been asked and what has been written, she just doesn't care that much about it. She has her views and one can either adhere to these views or she will try in some way to argue with the person disagreeing with her until they give up. 

No offense Terrasite, I am sure you are a really nice person but to have a conversation with you is like hitting a brick wall of sorts, painful and not something I would repeat for fun. You only see what you want to see, do not read what is said, twist things around to suit your viewpoint and yes...you pretty much argue people into wanting to slap their faces into a brick wall...


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Joby Becker said:


> Part 2:
> 
> 
> I had confered with the breeder that we got the female from who implored upon me to not release the pups if nerve issues were readily evident in the puppies, which I agreed with, and told him they would be euthanized if I saw major issues.
> 
> *Gee, you mean bad nerves are discernible in a young puppy???? You can see it and observe it. I bet you can test it.*
> 
> That breeder took a look at the male dogs pedigree when we went to pick up the puppy from him. He took one look at the pedigree, without even seeing the dog and said he personally would never breed that dog, based solely on his knowledge of what dogs in the lineage has produced in the past. Even stating, that he would not breed the dog, even if it was the best individual dog he ever came accross, because of nerve issues that were present in some of the lines that produced that dog in his experiences.
> 
> They were confident and I did take a peek at "nerve" testing, and the pups were ok, there was a little variety in the litter, a couple were more confident than others, in various surroundings, with various things, all were fine with loud noises and other key things I was looking at.
> 
> *You did nerve testing. Why? It has no relevance to the adult dog--or so you say. Variances in the litter--do tell. Different levels of confidence??? With what type of stimuli? You so believe in the fact that bad nerves spell game over, you would cull? Really?? Amazing. Fine as pups when you say they varied in confidence--how? You started with some genetic information. Huge question for me is at what age do they fall apart from the breeder's prior experience? Also, what sort of nerve testing did you dabble in and at what ages before they left you. You're not interested in what was done with them but you have spun thousands of words on the relevance of life experiences. But really you knew the nerves were questionable on some of them before they left and that the pedigree had nerve issues and was dominant for it. Yoda's issues merited euthanization for you. What sort of issues? Just curious.*
> 
> *Very interesting experience. But the bottom line is that you tested them and made a decision that they weren't bad enough to euthanize; although that was expected. But you didn't have a lot of faith either that they would turn out even though they "appeared fine." How you test. What you test. Interpreting the test.*
> 
> *T*


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Alice Bezemer said:


> Joby, stop trying... I read and understood your posts, they were as clear to me as anything and I suspect most if not everyone got the idea by what you said.
> 
> It is useless to try and converse with someone who will only read what they want to read, who will pick up points they can argue just for the sake of arguement, and who will ignore giving answers on anything else.
> 
> I myself I was going to reply to Terrasita's post but decided against it because she understands fully what is been asked and what has been written, she just doesn't care that much about it. She has her views and one can either adhere to these views or she will try in some way to argue with the person disagreeing with her until they give up.
> 
> No offense Terrasite, I am sure you are a really nice person but to have a conversation with you is like hitting a brick wall of sorts, painful and not something I would repeat for fun. You only see what you want to see, do not read what is said, twist things around to suit your viewpoint and yes...you pretty much argue people into wanting to slap their faces into a brick wall...


Ohhh, I feel the same about you Alice--nice person and all and doesn't mind telling someone what you think of them especially if they land on a different side of a discussion. Nothing about this is personal for me. Nor do I twist anything--only repeat what you say and respond. Notice I didn't accuse you of any demonic twisting, turning, selective reading, etc. You don't have to adhere to anything. Its real easy to say, I disagree and move on. You are convinced as to what you believe in; as am I. So we go your separate ways and do what we believe in. I've read a bunch of people who say they don't test because it doesn't yield any useful results. If you don't do it, how do you know what it yields? All it takes is time and interest. You are against something you've never tried. I've at least tried it to see if it had any relevance. But it really wasn't left at that. Next is the idea that its not about what's in the puppy but the person's ability to train and whether or not he's looking for something to blame for the breeder for. I can care about what is written. Doesn't mean I have to believe it. Those were your experiences. I have mine. Reading this thread initially, I thought it was a matter of semantics. Surely there is some trait selection criteria, whether you call it testing or not. So I thought forget about "testing." What about selection criteria and distinguishing one pup from another. No consideration for nerves? What about other things that point to some sort of working dog potential? I don't know. Maybe its that language barrier/culture thing.


T


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## Mircea Hemu-Ha

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> What nerves are you referring to that you say appear fine as a puppy only not to be so in adulthood.
> T


I have one: working Czech line GSD female, born in a rural environment, no exposure to anything outside her litter and the breeder, got to her owners home on the 30th of December when she was 8 weeks old. The next night, she stood on the balcony and watched the new year's fireworks, this is more or less what she would have seen:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u71rYjJUtsk

I wasn't there, this is what the owner told me on January the 1st: no hesitation, no barking or growling, didn't freeze, just watched for 1-2 minutes and then left to take a nap.
She was decently socialized, taken to run with other dogs, walked 2-3 times a day minimum out to the park and back thru heavy traffic, taken to the subway several times.

Same dog, about 18 months old, is scared of thunderstorms, panics a little bit if you slam a door hard, would try anything not to go under a bridge, because there is tramway overhead.
She took every correction i ever gave her (very few of them needed) and recovered immediately, even tried to bite me 2 times when my timing was off a bit, so not exactly a "soft" dog.


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## Drew Peirce

I got dizzy just scrolling down.............phew


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Mircea Hemu-Ha said:


> I have one: working Czech line GSD female, born in a rural environment, no exposure to anything outside her litter and the breeder, got to her owners home on the 30th of December when she was 8 weeks old. The next night, she stood on the balcony and watched the new year's fireworks, this is more or less what she would have seen:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u71rYjJUtsk
> 
> I wasn't there, this is what the owner told me on January the 1st: no hesitation, no barking or growling, didn't freeze, just watched for 1-2 minutes and then left to take a nap.
> She was decently socialized, taken to run with other dogs, walked 2-3 times a day minimum out to the park and back thru heavy traffic, taken to the subway several times.
> 
> Same dog, about 18 months old, is scared of thunderstorms, panics a little bit if you slam a door hard, would try anything not to go under a bridge, because there is tramway overhead.
> She took every correction i ever gave her (very few of them needed) and recovered immediately, even tried to bite me 2 times when my timing was off a bit, so not exactly a "soft" dog.


Interesting. The fireworks at 8 weeks, looks sounds great but that's an incomplete picture. Some look like they are handling it fine and then you pick them up and feel the heart racing. You're also not there to see how she left--the eyes, expression, other body language, etc. Sounds like she transferred okay. However, I've tested mine on day 49 and on the 8th week, completely different results--classic fear period week. I don't let mine go until 10-12 weeks or to the right person, at 7 weeks. With some dogs, they seemingly respond well to something the first time, only later to have issues. Year 1---Year 2, I've had dogs be total flakes. One made me question my so called testing. After about 18 months, he returned to what I saw with the baby puppy tests. Thunder storms are hard. Some people have said that younger dogs are fine and then somewhere after one year, they develop storm phobias. The one that I'm dealing with has definite issues with things overhead and visual stimuli--change of environment and changes within the environment. She transferred to the home environment just fine. No obvious issues at all. She traveled well. I actually first saw her after she had traveled from the East Coast. Didn't notice any obvious issues but she was outside in an x-pen. She did fairly well with my herding tests and her breeder wanted me to take her home over the winter to see how I liked her. Early on, noticed some flakiness in public environments which became more pronounced in the age 1--2 time frame. Anyone else thought she was fine, social, un--fazed. However, there were certain physiological signs. Her mother has the same issues. Transferred great to the home environment. Public environments--stressed. One of the things I've done with previous litters was take them to a packed public environment and observe them--individually. Again, I'm not looking for recovery. I'm looking for un-fazed and bomb proof. One of the things I've seen with the two I'm working with is the association factor. Something that the dog was previously confident with, now un-nerves him because it was paired with something that stresses him. The one I've raised has actually shown some signs of improvement with some socialization trips--but still startle reactive. She's due for another trip out and about to see how she is. She loves to engage people. I have a second pup about the same age--totally different pedigree and raised the same as her. No issues whatsoever environmentally. At this age, I'd say he is more handler sensitive--out of drive.

With bitches, you have the hormonal factor--sometimes. I had one GSD bitch that was one way before the first season and the beginning of progressive nerviness with the first season and each one thereafter until by 4 1/2 she was completely unworkable and going in to bloat symptoms with each heat cycle. Both her mother and sister bloated in season. Breeders weren't happy that I spayed her. Nerve-wise, I got about 85% of her back. With this forum, a question is seen as an objection, unfortunately. So far if there has been a change that I can think of, there has been something physical/organic, including thyroid. Otherwise, in adulthood, they have been as they tested. My nerve areas are environmental and how they related to livestock. I don't view how the dog takes corrections from a handler as a reflection of his nerves. I also don't use collar corrections. Have they experienced other corrections [voice, scruff shake]? Yes. My dogs seem to phase from puppy hood to the beginnings of adulthood--around age 3. So assuming they tested okay, I just don't worry about it much. I don't wash out anything. They can always be a pet. I deal with the issues, learn from it and chalk it up to a learning experience for how I'm going to select the next time. 

With your bitch, like mine, there is some missing information. I didn't test mine. I have a few casual observations. But from past experiences, I'd bet money she wasn't right in those areas to begin, just more glaring at an older age. Its difficult in my breed to get a certain level of stock drive and sense and she had it and I am particularly impressed with her mother in that regard. I also can go 10-12 years between dogs and this is something I hadn't experienced or even knew existed in the breed. Since then, I've had conversations with people who have dealt with it in a related breed and it seems fairly common. Furthermore, now the behaviorists are discussing "neophobia." So this is something I'll watch even more closely with future dogs/litters.

The only information you have on your puppy is that she was fine with fireworks when she first heard them away from her first home and later was thunder phobic and panics with the door banging. I really don't know anything about mine in the public environmental regard before 10 weeks. The best information I have on this is with litters I've whelped/raised, tested 3, 5, 7 weeks and lately the ones I've done weekly since birth. Otherwise, its a guess.


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## Maureen A Osborn

IMHO, you get a glimpse of a puppy's nerves between 5-7 weeks and then you dont get the finished product until 2-3 years old for a herder and 4-5 years for a molosser....seen it many times over....dogs go through weird fear stages, adolescent rebellious stages, etc....hence why some people wont breed a dog until at least 2-3 years old, cause they dont know what the finsihed product truly is until then.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Maureen A Osborn said:


> IMHO, you get a glimpse of a puppy's nerves between 5-7 weeks and then you dont get the finished product until 2-3 years old for a herder and 4-5 years for a molosser....seen it many times over....dogs go through weird fear stages, adolescent rebellious stages, etc....hence why some people wont breed a dog until at least 2-3 years old, cause they dont know what the finsihed product truly is until then.


I agree. So far, I think my bitches are done phasing close to age 2. The males are more like age 3. I want to see mine in certain situations that I won't even expose them to until around age 3 until I make the final breeding decision. Mostly, what I saw from 5-7 weeks has come to fruition. If I like them at 5-7 weeks, then I keep them and see it through to maturity. 

T


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## Joby Becker

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I agree. So far, I think my bitches are done phasing close to age 2. The males are more like age 3. I want to see mine in certain situations that I won't even expose them to until around age 3 until I make the final breeding decision. Mostly, what I saw from 5-7 weeks has come to fruition. If I like them at 5-7 weeks, then I keep them and see it through to maturity.
> 
> T


what type of dogs are we talking about here? GSD?


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Joby Becker said:


> what type of dogs are we talking about here? GSD?


My last GSD, I got as a 6 month old and she had been a kennel puppy for the most part. The more formally tested dogs have been the bouvs and the corgis. The 3, 5, 7 week thing started with the bouvs about 16-17 years ago. I've only seen a couple of litters of working line GSD puppies that I can think of.

T


----------



## Joby Becker

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> *Yoda's issues merited euthanization for you. What sort of issues? Just curious.*


Yes in this particular case, given the situation, absolutley. An unsold dog, from a litter I did not want to do, that I held onto to check out some, with no intentions on keeping for myself. 

I made a decision not to keep the dog, or try to pass it off on someone else after taking a good hard look at him. 

I am not sure about you, but I dont know many places that it would be wise to place an 8 month old dog of that type of breeding with, that had drive out his wazoo, grabbed anything that moved, big or small, in your hand or out of it, was possessive and somewhat dominant, but also reactive and "nervy" in the environment, often aggressive with people out on the street, that had almost zero obedience put into him. You dont just give that kind of dog away to just anyone, at least I don't. And the people that I know that would want a dog, would also find his 'nerve' issues beyond what they would want to try to deal with.

When he was almost 5 months old and a guy was running towards us at night, he dog fired up, I gave him some slack on the line, to see what he would do, and he ran up ahead of me and attempted to bite the dudes leg.

Near the end before I made the call, in the last few weeks, I made a push to try to expose him to many more things and work on some stuff to give him a real chance at redemption, in my eyes, we sat for hours with him at the park, watching the people, and introducing him to whoever would allow it, sitting as close as I could with him to an excavator digging out the ditches at the park, letting him get over his fear of the excavator that was parked there for a couple weeks, and got him climbing on the kids jungle gym, albeit in drive, took him for walks in the woods and in parking lots..lots of stuff...

But he still became distracted easily, was jumpy nervy and was reactive in my opinion, even though he was making some progress. 

Keep in mind this was a dog I walked around almost everyday..it was not a dog that was locked up in a kennel, or a crate his whole life . Some days he was fine, on most days he was fine actually, others he was really weird and spooky with the same things he had no issues with at other times, or towards people and/or animals. 

He had real strong drives, so when in drive, the issues were much fewer and far between, but he still eyeballed certain things, and became somewhat distracted by them, a blowing tree nearby or whatever.

I made up my mind fully based on several experiences that all occured in one day...finally breaking me down fully to make the hard choice, that day was the straw that broke the camels back for me personally...

I took him for a walk midday, and watched him barking at a couple small birds, on two occasions, then later barking at a squirrel, and then kinda really freaking out when he sort of accidentally jumped into a culvert ditch with about 8 inches of water in it, when chasing his pipe that I tossed, he had actually been in that same ditch many times, and then when taking him for a walk at later that night, I watched him hackle up and get aggressive towards a fire hydrant that he had seen a hundred times before, watched him spook out at a free standing electric meter between two houses that he had also seen 100 times before, and followed it up by getting jumpy towards both shadows of myself, and also of him a couple times, that occasionally flashed up on various houses as we walked by them. *And, as if all that was not enough, it poured rain that night, and when I took him out late night for a potty break in a downpour, he started running around in circles staring at the sky, barking at the top of his lungs.* I made the phone call the next morning.

I called the person that made the decision to do the breeding in the first place, and told her of my decision, she asked me to give her some time to find someone to place the dog with. I gave her the time she needed to do that, and also arrange for transportation, and brought the dog to her.

She had him for a short while, did some things with him, and probably thought he was not as bad as I was making it out to be, and maybe it wasnt, maybe it was just me...

I just knew that the dog was not something that I would personally place with anyone, or sell, you can label that anyway you want in your head, I call it attempting to have standards and adhering to them.

I called the guy that got him after that, and was super honest with him what I thought about the dog, and told him I was going to put him down. I just wanted to make sure that he was aware and had been told of the various issues that I saw with him, that he was told about them, and not just given a dog. The girl was 100% honest with him, made him fully aware of everything I said, and also I am sure gave her own assessment of the dog based on her experiences with him. 

He told me that when the people that transported the dog for him handed him the leash, the dog tried to bite him. 

The dog did surely have some moxy, I will give him that much. 

He was to give the dog to a friend, but decided to work with him some, and ended up liking him for the most part I think, we talked a couple times, he said he did not have nearly the amount of problems with him that I had experienced, but did see some of what I was talking about on some occasions for sure, said he was still reactive towards people out and about at times, and that he also caught him barking at his own shadow in the kennel a few times, but he was also doing bitework training with him and the dog seemed fine in the bitework, actually looked pretty good in the videos I saw when he was training him for PSA. 

The same guy had seen a few of the other pups, and told me as far as the bitework went, yoda was the best of what he saw out of that litter, which was not surpising to me, I had not yet started the bitework personally aside from showing him a sleeve a coupla times, but like I said, I think he was dog that would be pretty strong in his bitework, under certain parameters...his drive was great.

here he is at 10 months doing bitework.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVvn4aYxvpk

would I have put him down if she did not find a home for him, based on what I saw in him, the answer is a resounding YES. 

My original instincts were again proven to be correct, as Yoda is no longer with that person, he ultimately moved the dog elsewhere, he is now with another new owner, maybe on his next one after that, who knows for sure. I just hope whoever has him now, is aware of what they have, and is able to handle the dog safely.

In my experience my gut instincts to put a dog down, has almost always proved to be the right choice, on those occasions when I have let my emotions get ahold of me and talk me out of it. 

Again take from that what you will, and judge away....


----------



## Alice Bezemer

](*,)


Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Ohhh, I feel the same about you Alice--nice person and all and doesn't mind telling someone what you think of them especially if they land on a different side of a discussion. Nothing about this is personal for me. Nor do I twist anything--only repeat what you say and respond. Notice I didn't accuse you of any demonic twisting, turning, selective reading, etc. You don't have to adhere to anything. Its real easy to say, I disagree and move on. You are convinced as to what you believe in; as am I. So we go your separate ways and do what we believe in. I've read a bunch of people who say they don't test because it doesn't yield any useful results. If you don't do it, how do you know what it yields? All it takes is time and interest. You are against something you've never tried. I've at least tried it to see if it had any relevance. But it really wasn't left at that. Next is the idea that its not about what's in the puppy but the person's ability to train and whether or not he's looking for something to blame for the breeder for. I can care about what is written. Doesn't mean I have to believe it. Those were your experiences. I have mine. Reading this thread initially, I thought it was a matter of semantics. Surely there is some trait selection criteria, whether you call it testing or not. So I thought forget about "testing." What about selection criteria and distinguishing one pup from another. No consideration for nerves? What about other things that point to some sort of working dog potential? I don't know. Maybe its that language barrier/culture thing.
> 
> 
> T


----------



## Joby Becker

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> My last GSD, I got as a 6 month old and she had been a kennel puppy for the most part. The more formally tested dogs have been the bouvs and the corgis. The 3, 5, 7 week thing started with the bouvs about 16-17 years ago. I've only seen a couple of litters of working line GSD puppies that I can think of.
> 
> T


what did you do with your GSD that proved to you she could perform in any environment?

the bouvs?

the corgis?


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Joby Becker said:


> Yes in this particular case, given the situation, absolutley. An unsold dog, from a litter I did not want to do, that I held onto to check out some, with no intentions on keeping for myself.
> 
> I made a decision not to keep the dog, or try to pass it off on someone else after taking a good hard look at him.
> 
> I am not sure about you, but I dont know many places that it would be wise to place an 8 month old dog of that type of breeding with, that had drive out his wazoo, grabbed anything that moved, big or small, in your hand or out of it, was possessive and somewhat dominant, but also reactive and "nervy" in the environment, often aggressive with people out on the street, that had almost zero obedience put into him. You dont just give that kind of dog away to just anyone, at least I don't. And the people that I know that would want a dog, would also find his 'nerve' issues beyond what they would want to try to deal with.
> 
> When he was almost 5 months old and a guy was running towards us at night, he dog fired up, I gave him some slack on the line, to see what he would do, and he ran up ahead of me and attempted to bite the dudes leg.
> 
> Near the end before I made the call, in the last few weeks, I made a push to try to expose him to many more things and work on some stuff to give him a real chance at redemption, in my eyes, we sat for hours with him at the park, watching the people, and introducing him to whoever would allow it, sitting as close as I could with him to an excavator digging out the ditches at the park, letting him get over his fear of the excavator that was parked there for a couple weeks, and got him climbing on the kids jungle gym, albeit in drive, took him for walks in the woods and in parking lots..lots of stuff...
> 
> But he still became distracted easily, was jumpy nervy and was reactive in my opinion, even though he was making some progress.
> 
> Keep in mind this was a dog I walked around almost everyday..it was not a dog that was locked up in a kennel, or a crate his whole life . Some days he was fine, on most days he was fine actually, others he was really weird and spooky with the same things he had no issues with at other times, or towards people and/or animals.
> 
> He had real strong drives, so when in drive, the issues were much fewer and far between, but he still eyeballed certain things, and became somewhat distracted by them, a blowing tree nearby or whatever.
> 
> I made up my mind fully based on several experiences that all occured in one day...finally breaking me down fully to make the hard choice, that day was the straw that broke the camels back for me personally...
> 
> I took him for a walk midday, and watched him barking at a couple small birds, on two occasions, then later barking at a squirrel, and then kinda really freaking out when he sort of accidentally jumped into a culvert ditch with about 8 inches of water in it, when chasing his pipe that I tossed, he had actually been in that same ditch many times, and then when taking him for a walk at later that night, I watched him hackle up and get aggressive towards a fire hydrant that he had seen a hundred times before, watched him spook out at a free standing electric meter between two houses that he had also seen 100 times before, and followed it up by getting jumpy towards both shadows of myself, and also of him a couple times, that occasionally flashed up on various houses as we walked by them. *And, as if all that was not enough, it poured rain that night, and when I took him out late night for a potty break in a downpour, he started running around in circles staring at the sky, barking at the top of his lungs.* I made the phone call the next morning.
> 
> I called the person that made the decision to do the breeding in the first place, and told her of my decision, she asked me to give her some time to find someone to place the dog with. I gave her the time she needed to do that, and also arrange for transportation, and brought the dog to her.
> 
> She had him for a short while, did some things with him, and probably thought he was not as bad as I was making it out to be, and maybe it wasnt, maybe it was just me...
> 
> I just knew that the dog was not something that I would personally place with anyone, or sell, you can label that anyway you want in your head, I call it attempting to have standards and adhering to them.
> 
> I called the guy that got him after that, and was super honest with him what I thought about the dog, and told him I was going to put him down. I just wanted to make sure that he was aware and had been told of the various issues that I saw with him, that he was told about them, and not just given a dog. The girl was 100% honest with him, made him fully aware of everything I said, and also I am sure gave her own assessment of the dog based on her experiences with him.
> 
> He told me that when the people that transported the dog for him handed him the leash, the dog tried to bite him.
> 
> The dog did surely have some moxy, I will give him that much.
> 
> He was to give the dog to a friend, but decided to work with him some, and ended up liking him for the most part I think, we talked a couple times, he said he did not have nearly the amount of problems with him that I had experienced, but did see some of what I was talking about on some occasions for sure, said he was still reactive towards people out and about at times, and that he also caught him barking at his own shadow in the kennel a few times, but he was also doing bitework training with him and the dog seemed fine in the bitework, actually looked pretty good in the videos I saw when he was training him for PSA.
> 
> The same guy had seen a few of the other pups, and told me as far as the bitework went, yoda was the best of what he saw out of that litter, which was not surpising to me, I had not yet started the bitework personally aside from showing him a sleeve a coupla times, but like I said, I think he was dog that would be pretty strong in his bitework, under certain parameters...his drive was great.
> 
> here he is at 10 months doing bitework.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVvn4aYxvpk
> 
> would I have put him down if she did not find a home for him, based on what I saw in him, the answer is a resounding YES.
> 
> My original instincts were again proven to be correct, as Yoda is no longer with that person, he ultimately moved the dog elsewhere, he is now with another new owner, maybe on his next one after that, who knows for sure. I just hope whoever has him now, is aware of what they have, and is able to handle the dog safely.
> 
> In my experience my gut instincts to put a dog down, has almost always proved to be the right choice, on those occasions when I have let my emotions get ahold of me and talk me out of it.
> 
> Again take from that what you will, and judge away....


I try not to ever "judge." Its each person's call and you have to live with it to know it. But, my rule of thumb is that if it can't lead a normal pet/companion life, it doesn't leave my house. 

T


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Joby Becker said:


> what did you do with your GSD that proved to you she could perform in any environment?
> 
> the bouvs?
> 
> the corgis?


All mine do livestock and trial. As for perform in any environment, I've always done my obedience training in public places--hardware stores, busy streets with lots of foot traffic, crowded open air markets, etc. With most of the big dogs, during the first couple of years regardless of what I'm going to do with them, I want to see how they handle public places--especially if I'm going to breed them. After the issues with the seasons started, I gave up thinking Sch with her. Spoke with someone with a Briard that had the same thing happen with hers. As a stock dog--nerves of steel. She didn't make messes and could work any stock. She was great in really tight spaces and with tough situations. Maternal with the smallest lamb and what you needed with a cow/calf pair, ewes/lambs and rams. She had really high verbal intelligence. She didn't go environmentally nervy. It was more like extreme handler sensitivity--internalized everything. Hubby's actually did start training in Sch after passing their initial evaluation but work interfered with the 2-3 nights they required for training. I didn't think I was in his head enough to take it over. He was the first dog that I ever thought was "too much" dog for me--especially physically. I made that decision after the night he hit the end of the lead so hard, he broke the agitation collar and went after the decoy. 

T


----------



## Ellen Piepers

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> She had really high verbal intelligence.


Forgive me my obvious ignorance and lousy english, but could you please explain what you mean with *verbal intelligence* in this case?




Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I made that decision after the night he hit the end of the lead so hard, he broke the agitation collar and went after the decoy.


 Maybe we have lousy collars here as well, but it is not uncommon behaviour. Would it have helped if you were physically stronger? Would you have been able to hold him without collar then, or would you have done a superwoman dive to grab him on his way? :wink:


----------



## Gillian Schuler

I must admit that out of 3 male Briards, the first that came to the fence to greet me - I took.

I watched the other two dogs and am happy I took what I took. I don't call this "nerve" testing. 

One brother was a "chocolate box cover" looking pup and was ruined partly by its handler.

The other I took to the airport at four months and he growled at someone sitting harmlessly at the side.


The elder GSD I never tested. He was a moody pup from the start. Big men were never an issue - women and children were. I assumed that he had never seen the latter, which spoke realms.
He would have made a really good working dog but, as a household dog he is very possessive of house, garden, me, etc. 

It really depends on how you keep your dog and what plans you have for it.


----------



## Joby Becker

Terrasita, talking about dogs with you is like calling up Nancy Grace and trying to discuss the cuurent hot legal case of the month, while also expecting her to keep an honest, open, dialog and a clear, objective mind that is free from preconceived conclusions of guilt. 
](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)



Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Joby Becker said:
> 
> 
> 
> Part 2:
> I had conferred with the breeder that we got the female from who implored upon me to not release the pups if nerve issues were readily evident in the puppies, which I agreed with, and told him they would be euthanized if I saw major issues.
> 
> *Gee, you mean bad nerves are discernible in a young puppy???? You can see it and observe it. I bet you can test it.*
> 
> 
> 
> yes you can bad nerves as a puppy, like I have said many times here, what I am saying is that you cannot test a small puppy and determine what his nerves will be overall as an adult..whether they will be good enough for every type of work..and that you cannot test a small puppy and see if he will perform in all environments doing all types of things..](*,)](*,)
Click to expand...




Terrasita Cuffie said:


> That breeder took a look at the male dogs pedigree when we went to pick up the puppy from him. He took one look at the pedigree, without even seeing the dog and said he personally would never breed that dog, based solely on his knowledge of what dogs in the lineage has produced in the past. Even stating, that he would not breed the dog, even if it was the best individual dog he ever came accross, because of nerve issues that were present in some of the lines that produced that dog in his experiences.
> They were confident and I did take a peek at "nerve" testing, and the pups were ok, there was a little variety in the litter, a couple were more confident than others, in various surroundings, with various things, all were fine with loud noises and other key things I was looking at.
> *You did nerve testing. Why? It has no relevance to the adult dog--or so you say. *
> No Terrisita I never said that "testing" or whatever for nerves as a small puppy has NO relevance to the adult dog, if you read anything I said, stop putting words in my mouth and read.
> 
> I said that puppy testing can certainly discover bad nerves if they are present and obvious at that time, when looking at small pups, but also maintain that you cannot simply say that because a puppy does not have obviously bad nerves as a small puppy, that automatically means it will have the nerve required to be able to perfrom in any and all environments as an adult dog over its lifetime, there are many things that most people consider to be directly related to "nerves" that you simply cannot test for in a small puppy, and dogs go through changes in the nerve department.
> 
> *Variances in the litter--do tell. Different levels of confidence??? *
> 
> Yes T, I took a good look at the pups over the time I raised them, and also did some noise sensitivity testing and observed their confidence levels, in a few places. I "tested" that (if that is a test at all) because IF the pups were obviously terrible, I would have euthanized them, yes I would have.
> 
> If the pups showed no confidence or majorly lacking confidence, or obviously bad nerves, given the type of dogs in the pedigree and the temperament and character traits that they have, it would not be wise to allow them to leave the premises for a number of reasons.
> 
> Yes Terrista, there were slight differences in the levels of confidence, I crated them all up and took them to another location, overall most of them were very confident right out of the car, others took a few mintues to adjust and were more reserved initially, when we got them playing some were more easily distracted by the environment, I want to say that there were 45-50 mile an hour winds that day as well, so in all honesty I thought the pups were pretty solid at that time considering that they had never been out of my small yard, and had only been out of my house a few times up until that point, and had never ridden in a car, I was actually pretty happy at that point .
> 
> *With what type of stimuli? *
> Loading up, car ride, release onto strange property, various types of footing, stairs, inside and outside a garage full of junk to climb over and through, various props, noisemaking items, sticks, cans and high winds for the first time. in and out of drive at various times, generally playing with them and running around.
> 
> *You so believe in the fact that bad nerves spell game over, you would cull? Really?? Amazing.*
> 
> Yes Terrisita, BAD nerves that are evident as small puppies, in large breed dogs, especially working type dogs spell game over for me, and most other people.
> 
> You cant fix BAD nerves, BAD nerves are probably the number one reason that dogs move around from owner to owner, fill up the shelters, and probably the number one reason for unprovoked dog biting incidents due to being a fearbiting dog.
> 
> No one wants a dog with BAD nerves of any large breed, but a working type dog bred to be able to bite and fight people that has the other desirable traits for a working dog, that also has BAD nerves, is a recipe for disaster, not dogs you can just place as pet/companions in homes.
> 
> I would hope that all breeders would put down puppies bred like that, with obviously bad nerves, serious breeders trying to do the right thing, will put them down.
> 
> AMAZING??? REALLY???
> 
> That is not amazing to me at all..it is called doing the right thing...
> 
> There are enough dogs on the planet already, why put more shitty dogs out there at all? It is not like these are toy breed dogs we are talking about here, it is also not like we are talking about harmless types of pet dogs that are suitable to be any idiots pet.
> 
> *What would be the point of NOT putting them down? can you tell me that? there is NO upside to a litter of bad nerved puppies, if it happens. especially puppies from any working breeds, working breeds cannot function with bad nerves.
> 
> The people that the dogs should be going to will have no use for them, and there is a good chance that the others that may take them, will not keep them, or be able to handle them, so they will get moved around, and either end up in a shelter, or being put down anyway, maybe after they hurt someone first.
> *
> 
> *Fine as pups when you say they varied in confidence--how? You started with some genetic information. Huge question for me is at what age do they fall apart from the breeder's prior experience? Also, what sort of nerve testing did you dabble in and at what ages before they left you. You're not interested in what was done with them but you have spun thousands of words on the relevance of life experiences. But really you knew the nerves were questionable on some of them before they left and that the pedigree had nerve issues and was dominant for it. *
> 
> 
> Variance is explained above, some were super duper confident right out of the car, others were more reserved at first, were more easily distracted, all were fine with noises and clattersticks and the like, and none showed any major problems, all were running around and following and running up to various people and the like, I did not see anything that would have made me think that the nerves were really questionable as small puppies, that is what I am trying to tell you, most anyone would have thought that the nerves were fine at that point in time. In all litters there are slight differences in puppies. That is my point the nerves were fine, then they werent in some of them. The only one I can speak about for sure is Yoda, and nothing bad ever happened to him to cause him to develope the issues he had, and he never showed any nerve issues as a small puppy, or I would have never kept him. I would not waste the time and money to keep and take a look at a dog that I suspected had shitty nerves.
> 
> I had one opinion from an experienced breeder that made a comment about a dog, that he personally would not breed it. That is the extent of the information I had about the lines of the dog in regards to anything negative about them..
> 
> That particular dog comes from lines that many other breeders use, that has produce lots of good dogs, I am assuming that this breeder has tested enough dogs from that linage over the years that he has made a decision not to use dogs from that family in his breedings.
> 
> I do not know any of the specifics other than I trust what he says, and that I know his standards for quality of dogs are among the highest on the planet earth, so I pay attention to what guys like him tell me.
> 
> The pedigree is not dominant for bad nerves, not sure where you got that from. IN now way did I ever say or imply that, and neither did anyone else...Other breeders use dogs from that family and appear to be happy with the results, and there are lots of what I would call good dogs that have come from those breedings, and lots of dogs that turned out great, and a few national champions in dogsport. In fact the dog that we used to produce this litter is a dog that is titled in almost every sport that is available, and is an overall pretty nice dog winning lots of events and was a regional champ in dogsport.
> 
> It is not like we bred some obviously really shitty dogs together. We did an experimental breeding with two dogs that breedings between those lines are not proven, it is quite possible that other combinations will produce much better dogs.
> 
> Neither dog used has obviously shitty nerves. It is also not obvious that the dogs that were produced were seriously obviously overtly shitty dogs, some were just not the quality of dogs that some people wanted to use for to try to achieve their goals with, or that they should have gotten for the price sold for.
> 
> 
> *Very interesting experience. But the bottom line is that you tested them and made a decision that they weren't bad enough to euthanize; although that was expected. But you didn't have a lot of faith either that they would turn out even though they "appeared fine." *
> 
> *T*
> NEVER once did I ever say or imply that the puppies nerves were going to be, or expected to be so bad that they would have to be euthanized as small puppies..So stop putting words in my mouth.
> 
> I sad that IF there were, I would have euathanized them, like any breeder should in most peoples opinions, at least everyone I talk to anyhow....
> 
> My point was that I did not feel that the male was the right dog to breed to, for the type of dogs I wanted to try to produce..not that the dog had major nerve problems.
> 
> my god, you are really obtuse sometimes..
> 
> I knew I should have just passed on answering your inquiries since you dont read or comprehend very well what I write, even though I try to explain EXACTLY what I am saying, to not leave much room for someone rational to draw extraneous conclusions from without making some pretty wild gesticulatory remarks to suit their own arguments.
> 
> It was really not worth discussing these semi-private matters at all i guess, you are not absorbing much of anything that I am saying, and in the process I just might have put myself on several people's shit list to try to share some things with you..
> but I see now all you want to do is put words in my mouth, and make assumptions about what I am saying, given no cause to make them, by anything I have written, to suit your own twisted and naive views.
> 
> It does not matter at what age a dog with less than ideal nerve set (as viewed by most people) falls apart, if it falls apart, it is not good, period regardless of the age, and I do not know if any dogs fell apart or not in that breeders experience, concerning the lines he did not want to breed to, it may have just been that he saw enough dogs not being suitable for what he needs, to make him decide not to use that line of dogs for breeding, even though he has also purchased suitable dogs from those lines himself as adults.
> 
> How you test. What you test. Interpreting the test.
> T
> 
> 
> yes as I asked of you... how do you test, what do you test, and how do you interpret the test? which I have looked again and not seen anything in your lame answers, that could possibly tell you that the dogs will possess suitable nerves as adults to be used for various things in every environment based on puppy tests.
> 
> Get some litters going of those GSD you are so interested in, and time will tell how well your puppy testing can predict their workability in any environment.
> 
> Nobody serious that attempts to breed decent working dogs that end up ultimately falling short in the nerve department for various things, puts out puppies that have bad nerves as small puppies, yet some of those puppies still get washed or taken out of service for "nerve related" issues.
> 
> And not all the dogs that fall short on nerves for someone and what they do with them,will mean that someone else would even notice that the dog has a nerve issue, it might not make a huge difference to them, but could be a huge deal breaker for other uses...depending on what they do with the dog, which was the original viewpoint I was trying to convey.
> 
> Ones persons dog with "good nerves" can be another persons "shitter".
> 
> But there are also dogs that do have strong nerves that no sane person can argue about as well.
> 
> Nerves are not black and white, neccessarily just good or bad, unless they are really actually BAD.
> 
> sometimes "good nerves" are just not good enough, depending on what is being done with them, and sometimes things that are looked at as nerves are dependent on other things as well. that was my entire point.


----------



## Joby Becker

T.

Not sure where you are drawing a conclusion that I was already aware of any issues with the pups before they left, so stop drawing conclusions that arent there. The entire point of me bringing up this was that the puppies did NOT show the issues that they ultimately were washed out for as young puppies...

I dont have tons of video of that litter, and no video of any sort of NERVE TESTING, but here are a few videos of various pups while I had them... 

38 days
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9E29-bVlEk

7 weeks, first time off of my property, 45-50 mph winds.. first time seeing anything that is in videos either happened in these videos or very shortly before these videos were taken, some of the pups had seen some of this stuff an hour earlier before we got the camera out, others none of it. the stick the rag the jug whatever else. Videos made by request of potential buyer(s), not something I would normally do with small puppies myself, but alas, people wanted to see this sort of thing so we did it. All of these pups were washed out..Maybe you can use your expert eye to point out the obvious faults you see...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3r-ievqmaE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0VOQIVrEJ0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDMYVNtFS30
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=338Pla3blH8


----------



## Tiago Fontes

Joby Becker said:


> Terrasita, talking about dogs with you is like calling up Nancy Grace and trying to discuss the cuurent hot legal case of the month, while also expecting her to keep an honest, open, dialog and a clear, objective mind that is free from preconceived conclusions of guilt.
> ](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)


 
I admire your patience, Joby. 

There are some posters that I stopped reading, due to the density of their posts and constant nagging attitude.


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## Alice Bezemer

If only this forum had a contruction worker emoticon or a brick wall rebuilding emoticon... Our poor little ole wallbanger emo is getting a workout for sure! Poor thing looks nackered! :lol:


----------



## Tiago Fontes

Alice Bezemer said:


> If only this forum had a contruction worker emoticon or a brick wall rebuilding emoticon... Our poor little ole wallbanger emo is getting a workout for sure! Poor thing looks nackered! :lol:


 
Alice, in order to give poor little ole wallbanger emo some rest, how about if we replace its functions with this one:

:-({|= :-({|= :-({|= :-({|= :-({|= 


Looks appropriate, doesn't it? 



Regards


----------



## Alice Bezemer

Joby Becker said:


> T.
> 
> Not sure where you are drawing a conclusion that I was already aware of any issues with the pups before they left, so stop drawing conclusions that arent there. The entire point of me bringing up this was that the puppies did NOT show the issues that they ultimately were washed out for as young puppies...
> 
> I dont have tons of video of that litter, and no video of any sort of NERVE TESTING, but here are a few videos of various pups while I had them...
> 
> 38 days
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9E29-bVlEk
> 
> 7 weeks, first time off of my property, 45-50 mph winds.. first time seeing anything that is in videos either happened in these videos or very shortly before these videos were taken, some of the pups had seen some of this stuff an hour earlier before we got the camera out, others none of it. the stick the rag the jug whatever else. Videos made by request of potential buyer(s), not something I would normally do with small puppies myself, but alas, people wanted to see this sort of thing so we did it. All of these pups were washed out..Maybe you can use your expert eye to point out the obvious faults you see...
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3r-ievqmaE
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0VOQIVrEJ0
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDMYVNtFS30
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=338Pla3blH8


Well the top video has some fine looking pups Joby, one may be a bit lazy, keep laying down on the job, wouldn't pick that one, he's a slacker according to my test! :lol:

The bottom video's has some really weird and unhappy looking puppies! I hope you didn't repeat that breeding, they were square and grey with an ugly red grimace! :???:

Look! --->









Why are you trying to show us square grey puppies with ugly red faces? :grin:


----------



## Alice Bezemer

Tiago Fontes said:


> Alice, in order to give poor little ole wallbanger emo some rest, how about if we replace its functions with this one:
> 
> :-({|= :-({|= :-({|= :-({|= :-({|=
> 
> 
> Looks appropriate, doesn't it?
> 
> 
> 
> Regards


I guess in a pinch, it would do... but it does not express the extreme sense of selfharm one wants to apply to ones self.... Maybe we need a "Gauging out own eyes with fork or spoon" emo? :lol:


----------



## Tiago Fontes

Done...


----------



## Joby Becker

ha ha Alice...my bad..that was pretty f'ing funny though 

videos are now veiwable I think...



> Originally Posted by Joby Becker
> T.
> 
> Not sure where you are drawing a conclusion that I was already aware of any issues with the pups before they left, so stop drawing conclusions that arent there. The entire point of me bringing up this was that the puppies did NOT show the issues that they ultimately were washed out for as young puppies...
> 
> I dont have tons of video of that litter, and no video of any sort of NERVE TESTING, but here are a few videos of various pups while I had them...
> 
> 38 days
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9E29-bVlEk
> 
> 7 weeks, first time off of my property, 45-50 mph winds.. first time seeing anything that is in videos either happened in these videos or very shortly before these videos were taken, some of the pups had seen some of this stuff an hour earlier before we got the camera out, others none of it. the stick the rag the jug whatever else. Videos made by request of potential buyer(s), not something I would normally do with small puppies myself, but alas, people wanted to see this sort of thing so we did it. All of these pups were washed out..Maybe you can use your expert eye to point out the obvious faults you see...
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3r-ievqmaE
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0VOQIVrEJ0
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDMYVNtFS30
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=338Pla3blH8


----------



## susan tuck

Alice Bezemer said:


> I guess in a pinch, it would do... but it does not express the extreme sense of selfharm one wants to apply to ones self.... Maybe we need a "Gauging out own eyes with fork or spoon" emo? :lol:


----------



## susan tuck




----------



## Peter Cho

there is no correlation. Unless overt serious issue.
That is why many top competitors buy 12-18 month old dogs from Germany. Germany because they have a system of brokers catering to serious competitors and working enthusiasts. Less guess work. Saves you time over time.

You can only go by the breeder if you are getting a pup and the 3 generation pedigree.

3 gen of all high level sch 3......well, chances are good and from there it is a crap shoot. 

The more I train, the more I realize, it is about the training and handling, not the dog. 33% dog, 33% handler, 33% helper work and expert spotting/coaching.
Focusing on an unknown like what the pup will become is unproductive since it out of your hands to a large degree, imo.
Focusing on YOUR handling skills and developing a winning club is up to the human.


----------



## Martine Loots

Christopher Smith said:


> I take the pup for a walk in an area unfamiliar to the puppy. I don't look at one particular thing but the dog's overall demeanor.


That's what we do. I don't believe in all the testing.
We observe the pups (first time at about 4wks of age). We know the characteristics and things to look for.
We check them again at 5wks (with the littermates and in an unfamiliar area) and again at 6wks. Then we make our choice and take him home (usually it's the same pup that we liked at 4wks)


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Joby Becker said:


> T.
> 
> Not sure where you are drawing a conclusion that I was already aware of any issues with the pups before they left, so stop drawing conclusions that arent there. The entire point of me bringing up this was that the puppies did NOT show the issues that they ultimately were washed out for as young puppies...
> 
> I dont have tons of video of that litter, and no video of any sort of NERVE TESTING, but here are a few videos of various pups while I had them...
> 
> 38 days
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9E29-bVlEk
> 
> 7 weeks, first time off of my property, 45-50 mph winds.. first time seeing anything that is in videos either happened in these videos or very shortly before these videos were taken, some of the pups had seen some of this stuff an hour earlier before we got the camera out, others none of it. the stick the rag the jug whatever else. Videos made by request of potential buyer(s), not something I would normally do with small puppies myself, but alas, people wanted to see this sort of thing so we did it. All of these pups were washed out..Maybe you can use your expert eye to point out the obvious faults you see...
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3r-ievqmaE
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0VOQIVrEJ0
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDMYVNtFS30
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=338Pla3blH8


Joby,

You took up this discussion by asking some very pointed questions to which I've responded. If you didn't want to discuss it, why ask all the questions and then complain because I don't agree with you. How many people here have said they take pup to an unfamiliar place and observe? That's a test. There is a reason that the place is unfamiliar. What they were washed out for is just how it manifests itself. As for the litter, if the breeder knows you can get some of the worst nerves possible, I bet further inquiry, you find out at what age it starts to show and how. Next time, take them as singles and don't put them in drive--for starters. Oh and I thought it was 35 mph winds. You want to continue to discuss, send a PM. That way you can give your sympathizers and non-believers a break. Enlightening thread though. I would have never believed that you can get something like Yoda out of KNPV lines and I'd love to know if they mature out of it or if its a life thing. Quite the experiment.

T


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## Christopher Smith

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> How many people here have said they take pup to an unfamiliar place and observe? That's a test.


That's great T! You are going to define what I do without even seeing it. You must have great skills and pray to superior god. And with your great insight and knowledge I have something you might be able to help me with . *WTF am I looking for when I "test" puppies?* I have had plenty of people ask me and I truly can't give them an answer. Can you?


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Christopher Smith said:


> That's great T! You are going to define what I do without even seeing it. You must have great skills and pray to superior god. And with your great insight and knowledge I have something you might be able to help me with . *WTF am I looking for when I "test" puppies?* I have had plenty of people ask me and I truly can't give them an answer. Can you?



Who said I was referring to you? Some people actually say they are looking for something specific, they just haven't said what. You guys really want to keep this going. I'm perfectly willing to accept that as far as you are concerned, you don't know what you are looking for.

T


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## will fernandez

Has anyone defined Verbal Intelligence yet..Need to know..


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## Alice Bezemer

Ellen Piepers said:


> Forgive me my obvious ignorance and lousy english, but could you please explain what you mean with *verbal intelligence* in this case?





will fernandez said:


> Has anyone defined Verbal Intelligence yet..Need to know..


+1


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## Christopher Jones

Its interesting to see that the people who have bred alot of good dogs, have owned and trained many good dogs over many years dont see a great benefit in these little tests for pups and the other side hasnt bred or owned many top line dogs yet they put their faith in some little puppy tests. 
Im not putting myself in the same class as people like Dick but I have had enough litters of good dogs to know that the puppy tests would have been of very little use to pick the better dogs from the not so super ones.
Ive seen pupa that were a bit nervous turn into rock solid adults, seen pups with very little drives turn into extremely high driven adults and seen lots of fools gold ( pups that look great at 5-8 weeks that turn out to be duds.
Im not sure why T doesnt want to hear this and accept that it is the case. And if you have had so many crap shoot pups you are looking at the wrong bloodlines and breedings.


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## Alice Bezemer

will fernandez said:


> Has anyone defined Verbal Intelligence yet..Need to know..


Maybe the dog barks in tongues? :-s:-o


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## Sarah Platts

will fernandez said:


> Has anyone defined Verbal Intelligence yet..Need to know..


It wasn't so long ago that there was a discussion on another site (related with sar) that the 'knowledgable old-timers' felt that the most commands a dog was capable of learning was approx 8-10 with a selected few capable of learning maybe 12. 

Others of us disagreed because we were using more and some were using full sentances. I run into very smart dogs and I've run into pretty stupid ones (just like people, eh?) and some pick up verbal faster than others.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Sarah Platts said:


> It wasn't so long ago that there was a discussion on another site (related with sar) that the 'knowledgable old-timers' felt that the most commands a dog was capable of learning was approx 8-10 with a selected few capable of learning maybe 12.
> 
> Others of us disagreed because we were using more and some were using full sentances. I run into very smart dogs and I've run into pretty stupid ones (just like people, eh?) and some pick up verbal faster than others.


Amazing how SAR people relate to some of the same things.

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Christopher Jones said:


> Its interesting to see that the people who have bred alot of good dogs, have owned and trained many good dogs over many years dont see a great benefit in these little tests for pups and the other side hasnt bred or owned many top line dogs yet they put their faith in some little puppy tests.
> Im not putting myself in the same class as people like Dick but I have had enough litters of good dogs to know that the puppy tests would have been of very little use to pick the better dogs from the not so super ones.
> Ive seen pupa that were a bit nervous turn into rock solid adults, seen pups with very little drives turn into extremely high driven adults and seen lots of fools gold ( pups that look great at 5-8 weeks that turn out to be duds.
> Im not sure why T doesnt want to hear this and accept that it is the case. And if you have had so many crap shoot pups you are looking at the wrong bloodlines and breedings.


I can accept it fine for those of you who believe it. I don't accept it for me. For the record, I've never had a crap shoot puppy. That's a WDF often stated premise that I've never understood or agreed with. 

T


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## Joby Becker

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I can accept it fine for those of you who believe it. I don't accept it for me. For the record, I've never had a crap shoot puppy. That's a WDF often stated premise that I've never understood or agreed with.
> 
> T


T. I am sure that once you start doing different things with your dogs you may start to absorb some of the things that various other people are talking about on different subjects. 

I am not discounting what you actually do with your dogs now, in any way. 

I seem to remeber you posting just a few short years ago on another board, when you first were learning about doing even just basic obedience training "in drive", and seeing your discussions with a few of the other herding people on various subjects, who disagreed with you strongly on a few subjects as well. 

I personally would not call a Bouvier that has had it's toy drive crushed to the point that she would not play with you, a dog that you would not attempt to do any bitework with, because you were scared to try it, for fear of not being able to control the dog, as a dog that could perform in any environments, no matter how well she could do herding, in the places you had her do herding tasks.

What is amazing is that you are now seeming to be so knowlegable about the training techniques in dogs and dogs in general, after reading some of those past discussions you have had.

In our own past discussions, you have basically told me that because a dog has no fear of the dark, in your opinion, that he would be fine going into a strange dark basement to confront a man. This is a very naive way of thinking.

You also like to use your stock dog analogies in referrences to looking at traits, that you seem to feel will automatically apply to other areas as well, this is also naive in my opinion.

You are using your experiences in a bubble to paint a broad scope over lots of things.

I am quite sure that almost everyone in my neighborhood is quite happy with the dogs they have, and think that they are great, for what they do with them, I am also quite sure that there are actually not very many really good dogs in my neighborhood, if I was to seek out one for something I might like to do things with.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Joby Becker said:


> T. I am sure that once you start doing different things with your dogs you may start to absorb some of the things that various other people are talking about on different subjects.
> 
> I am not discounting what you actually do with your dogs now, in any way.
> 
> I seem to remeber you posting just a few short years ago on another board, when you first were learning about doing even just basic obedience training "in drive", and seeing your discussions with a few of the other herding people on various subjects, who disagreed with you strongly on a few subjects as well.
> 
> I personally would not call a Bouvier that has had it's toy drive crushed to the point that she would not play with you, a dog that you would not attempt to do any bitework with, because you were scared to try it, for fear of not being able to control the dog, as a dog that could perform in any environments, no matter how well she could do herding, in the places you had her do herding tasks.
> 
> What is amazing is that you are now seeming to be so knowlegable about the training techniques in dogs and dogs in general, after reading some of those past discussions you have had.
> 
> In our own past discussions, you have basically told me that because a dog has no fear of the dark, in your opinion, that he would be fine going into a strange dark basement to confront a man. This is a very naive way of thinking.
> 
> You also like to use your stock dog analogies in referrences to looking at traits, that you seem to feel will automatically apply to other areas as well, this is also naive in my opinion.
> 
> You are using your experiences in a bubble to paint a broad scope over lots of things.
> 
> I am quite sure that almost everyone in my neighborhood is quite happy with the dogs they have, and think that they are great, for what they do with them, I am also quite sure that there are actually not very many really good dogs in my neighborhood, if I was to seek out one for something I might like to do things with.


Unbelievable. Keep working on it Joby. You're on a search and discredit mission and truth really isn't a requirement. Agree to disagree and move on. But you just can't turn it loose. No, I wouldn't handle that type of dog in bite work if I wasn't in his head. You call it fear. I call it sense. TWO bouviers, Joby and whether one will play with toys or tug with me has NOTHING to do with how she performs in different settings. What difference does it make if someone in herding agrees with me? Is that meaningful for you? You can't leave this alone or stick to the discussion at hand. You jump into these discussions that are opinions stated and ask questions specifically directed to me and this is what you turn into? Once again, dear one, there have been TWO bouviers. The first one belonged to my husband--very one person dog especially in his younger years. Some bouviers DO NOT have tons of object drive. She [Khira] has prey drive out the ass but certainly not the object drive of the GSDs. The prey drive was a problem with the stock so did a LOT of control work of not going into prey. At the time I tried the whole object drive thing, it had been three years since I'd played with some sort of toy and never tug. Khira and the load/explode prey was a first for me so did some research here. I decided to back up and try to get in her head with prey--no conflict, yada, yada. Mine tend to lose interest in toys after they start stock work. She started on stock somewhere around 10 weeks. I actually pulled her off of stock for 2 years, did drive stuff, got her tugging, started marker training and obedience with the Sch club I was training with. Took her back to stock with all the trial work marker trained, trialed her at a very consistent level and often in the ribbons and then retired her. To this day, she still tugs and now runs around the house with a toy. The GSD that I had at the time was 9, had never seen a tug in her life and immediately went for it, possession and all. But that's in GSDs waaayyy more ingrained than bouviers. For the future, it would probably be best for you not to ask questions that you don't want to know the answer to. BTW, your memory sucks. In attack mode, you're not very clear headed. Try getting out of those dark basements of yours and turn the lights on.

T


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## Matt Vandart

Here you go Micheal:

Pass:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DO3ANl22kdg

and

fail:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFglPaIxTJ4


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## Bob Scott

#1 A decent pup but I personally would like to see it more "full of itself" for lack of a better term. Possibly a nice sport dog. Definitely an excellent pet for an active family. 

#2 I didn't see much of anything that would make me want to take him home.


Ether way, this is where "just observing" would come into play first. I'd like to see the litter just running around the yard. From that is where I would make the choice as to what I wanted to test. It would be great to know both parents and background also. 
Seeing that much difference between #1 and #2 could say a lot about the breeding. I'm not fond of a litter where any one pup shows nerve issues or lack of confidence.


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## Michael Murphy

Matt Vandart said:


> Here you go Micheal:
> 
> Pass:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DO3ANl22kdg
> 
> and
> 
> fail:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFglPaIxTJ4


first i would say i the lower side of average ( considering its a working line gsd) second was a "show dog"


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## Matt Vandart

Michael Murphy said:


> first i would say i the lower side of average ( considering its a working line gsd) second was a "show dog"


That was not what I was getting at and the dog will soon be a working PD not a sport dog


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Matt Vandart said:


> That was not what I was getting at and the dog will soon be a working PD not a sport dog


Good luck with getting your point across. I know exactly what they were testing. Had absolutely NOTHING to do with drive. If you have any more information on their program/school, please PM it to me.

Thanks.
T


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## Colin Chin

Any progress on these three pups ? Thanks.


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