# If dogs hips were never x-rayed would the dog be better off?



## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

My father has a GS that he got as a young dog with a SCH 1 title and pink paperwork. It was just going to be a pet for him. He also had his hips and elbows x-rayed. I don’t remember exactly what they were rated at but they were better than acceptable. By time the dog was 3 he did not look as I though he should when walking. He is now six and I think the next few years are going to be tough for him as far as his rear end goes. I think there was an ACL or something that a vet said was injured. But whatever it is ligaments, muscles I don’t know he has some issues. 
Many people might have thought this dog to be an OK dog to breed at 2 or 3. Everything checked out. 
So do you think being able to breed a dog for the x-ray hurt breeding? It is obviously not the only thing that can go wrong with an ass end. I really think if there was no x-raying that dogs would be better off. I think it would be more likely that truly healthy dogs would be breed rather than ones the x-ray says should be.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

If it was an ACL injury, that happens, not necessarily genetic in origin at all. An injury does not mean the dog is not of breeding quality, it means the dog got injured.

Not sure what an ACL/ligament/muscle injury has to do with Health screening hip/elbow bone structure or not, but I think I get where you are going with the topic.

Unrelated to the example provided... The Problem is this.

If the dog is BAD at that time, the xray will show it immediately. A good Xray is no guarantee that the dog will be good at 6-7 yrs, unless the xray is taken at 6-7 yrs.

If there were no xrays, dogs that would show up BAD at younger ages would be being bred all the time (because no one would know they were bad), along with the ones that might "turn" bad later in life. This would be far worse IMHO.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Can a hip displaysia "free" as we call them here in German speaking Europe, become worse in age?


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Why in the world would the radiograph "hurt" the breeding? That's like having a bunch of unprotected sex and then getting HIV or another STD and blaming it on the tests that detect them. It also doesn't mean that just because you got an HIV test and passed, doesn't mean you don't also have gonorrhea. Realize that hind end lameness can be due to many things, not just hip dysplasia.


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## James Lechernich (Oct 20, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Why in the world would the radiograph "hurt" the breeding? That's like having a bunch of unprotected sex and then getting HIV or another STD and blaming it on the tests that detect them. It also doesn't mean that just because you got an HIV test and passed, doesn't mean you don't also have gonorrhea. Realize that hind end lameness can be due to many things, not just hip dysplasia.


Can't the xray itself be a contributing factor to hip degeneration since it manipulates a dog's body very unnaturally and evaluations are repeated several times during a dog's life?


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

They are stretched out in a similar way that a dog extended in full gallop or jump. The only one of my dogs who has looked uncomfortable afterward was my 10 year old Rottie who I knew had end stage arthritis in her hips and elbows anyways and she's painful with a lot of types of range of motion (all were done under sedation). I haven't needed to get any repeat rads on any of my dogs either.


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## Lynda Myers (Jul 16, 2008)

Honestly Chris you had the answer long before posting your question...in the beginning dogmen did not have the technology to x-ray! And only had what they saw to base most decisions on. Don't misunderstand me I'm not trying to say that culling on what you see in a dog as wrong. But it is just as foolhardy to use this as the only measuring stick when there are other tools that can be used to help in the selection process. 
Please remember it was only a short time ago where people actually worked hard for their food and other creature comforts. Which carried over to govern their animals as well. Animals that could preform the duties required were kept and fed. Those dogs that couldn't were culled. Was this effective? No because 20 years later the dogs down off the earlier dogs still have the same problems nothing was eliminated.
Wasn't the goal to produce animals who could carry out the tasks asked of them without the hindrances of health and temperament problems? 

The flaw in your thinking is what's wrong with the process of creating better dogs...the use of one tool regardless to the fact that there are other equally as helpful to the selection process and when used in concert with the already established practices will produce better dogs. It's like only painting with one color or type brush. How can you paint a lively, vivid Masterpiece with shape, definition and texture without multiple colors and brushes...you can't.

The ACL hasn't nothing to do with integrity of the hip joint. The ACL involves knees which is where conformation comes into play. Good structure or bone alignment reduces the wear and tear on the joints, ligaments, tendons and muscles....the whole body actually because every body part is in it's proper place. It will even allow an CHD dog to perform well and hold up longer (useful in work) then dogs without good conformation. The head in the sand theory never improves anything! But sure does let a whole of crap slide under the door. However there is a sense of well being for the ignorant .... I sight no stinking problem so there fore there must be no stinking problem. 
Blind people shouldn't do blind breedings!!!



Chris McDonald said:


> My father has a GS that he got as a young dog with a SCH 1 title and pink paperwork. It was just going to be a pet for him. He also had his hips and elbows x-rayed. I don’t remember exactly what they were rated at but they were better than acceptable. By time the dog was 3 he did not look as I though he should when walking. He is now six and I think the next few years are going to be tough for him as far as his rear end goes. I think there was an ACL or something that a vet said was injured. But whatever it is ligaments, muscles I don’t know he has some issues.  Many people might have thought this dog to be an OK dog to breed at 2 or 3. Everything checked out.  So do you think being able to breed a dog for the x-ray hurt breeding? It is obviously not the only thing that can go wrong with an ass end. I really think if there was no x-raying that dogs would be better off. I think it would be more likely that truly healthy dogs would be breed rather than ones the x-ray says should be.


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## Lynda Myers (Jul 16, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Can a hip displaysia "free" as we call them here in German speaking Europe, become worse in age?


Depends on the age of the dog at the time of x-ray. OFA found that dogs who were x-rayed at one year age could and did develop CHD between the ages of one and two years of age. Which is why they (OFA) changed the certification age to two years old. Because there were a significant amount of dogs who did develop CHD after the age one that had x-rayed normal a one year old.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Exactly, Lynda. Breeding with your head in the sand helps nobody. I feel like I need to put the following in my signature line because no one seems to get it: "50% of dogs with hip dysplasia show NO CLINICAL SIGNS" so that in other words, if you don't test them, you're not going to be making an informed breeding decision.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Why in the world would the radiograph "hurt" the breeding? That's like having a bunch of unprotected sex and then getting HIV or another STD and blaming it on the tests that detect them. It also doesn't mean that just because you got an HIV test and passed, doesn't mean you don't also have gonorrhea. Realize that hind end lameness can be due to many things, not just hip dysplasia.


People but to much trust in an x-ray and a title as being the reason to breed. If there was no x-rays maybe they would actually look closer at the past generations long term performance rather than just looking at the current dogs x-ray. I just used my father’s dog as an example. I understand that a banged up ACL is an injury but I still think a dog that inured there ACL may pass on a higher likely hood of the next generation injuring there ACL?
I have not seen the GS of long ago but I have a hard time believing that they had the rear end of today’s GS. I don’t think it is impossible that the x-ray and the modern vet may have contributed to the decline of there quality. What is your reasoning for their decline in quality, or do think there is none? 
As far as your STD example, there are likely people who caught something because there partners test shown negative results at the time of the test. I don’t know much about it but I think you can be caring and transmitting HIV for quite a while and still test positive. If that is the case you are supporting my reasoning of the x-ray


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

hey Chris, I don't think people rely on the xray to much. Dogs like yours cost a lot of money and people just want to get as much right about the dog as possible.. so much about breeding is chance that you would like the health to kind of be the one thing you don't have to worry about


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Chris McDonald said:


> People but to much trust in an x-ray and a title as being the reason to breed. If there was no x-rays maybe they would actually look closer at the past generations long term performance rather than just looking at the current dogs x-ray. I just used my father’s dog as an example. I understand that a banged up ACL is an injury but I still think a dog that inured there ACL may pass on a higher likely hood of the next generation injuring there ACL?
> I have not seen the GS of long ago but I have a hard time believing that they had the rear end of today’s GS. I don’t think it is impossible that the x-ray and the modern vet may have contributed to the decline of there quality. What is your reasoning for their decline in quality, or do think there is none?
> As far as your STD example, there are likely people who caught something because there partners test shown negative results at the time of the test. I don’t know much about it but I think you can be caring and transmitting HIV for quite a while and still test positive. If that is the case you are supporting my reasoning of the x-ray


Actually in dogs, almost all cruciate ligament ruptures are not injuries like they are humans, they are degenerate changes. According to our orthopaedic surgery professor (who's one of the top in the country), only 2% are from actual injuries like stepping in a hole while running or getting hit by a car. The rest just has the cruciate ligament degenerate on its own. They also know this because in humans, they can put things like grafts in to give the person a new ACL ligament. Graft repair works very poorly in dogs because the environment of that dog's particular stifle joint wants to break down the ligament. In addition, between 50-60% of cruciate ligament ruptures in dogs will also happen later to the other side. The top breeds for them are labs, Rottweilers, Newfoundlands, and pit bulls. CCL tears in the GSD are actually relatively uncommon, which is lucky because God knows they have enough problems of their own.

I think we are breeding better dogs with health testing and making smarter and more informed breeding choices. I need to find the study, but I remember one study where they used good hip traits via radiographs as a criteria for breeding (can't remember if it was in labs or GSDs) and they reduced the incidence from like 30% to 10% in the offspring within 5 generations.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Lynda Myers said:


> Depends on the age of the dog at the time of x-ray. OFA found that dogs who were x-rayed at one year age could and did develop CHD between the ages of one and two years of age. Which is why they (OFA) changed the certification age to two years old. Because there were a significant amount of dogs who did develop CHD after the age one that had x-rayed normal a one year old.


In all probability the hips were good and would have stayed good if the dogs were out of the house and in a natural environment. LOL


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Actually in dogs, almost all cruciate ligament ruptures are not injuries like they are humans, they are degenerate changes. According to our orthopaedic surgery professor (who's one of the top in the country), only 2% are from actual injuries like stepping in a hole while running or getting hit by a car. The rest just has the cruciate ligament degenerate on its own. They also know this because in humans, they can put things like grafts in to give the person a new ACL ligament. Graft repair works very poorly in dogs because the environment of that dog's particular stifle joint wants to break down the ligament. In addition, between 50-60% of cruciate ligament ruptures in dogs will also happen later to the other side. The top breeds for them are labs, Rottweilers, Newfoundlands, and pit bulls. CCL tears in the GSD are actually relatively uncommon, which is lucky because God knows they have enough problems of their own.
> 
> I think we are breeding better dogs with health testing and making smarter and more informed breeding choices. I need to find the study, but I remember one study where they used good hip traits via radiographs as a criteria for breeding (can't remember if it was in labs or GSDs) and they reduced the incidence from like 30% to 10% in the offspring within 5 generations.


Cant “degenerate changes” be hereditary? Wouldn’t a dog be likely to pass this problem on? I don’t think the dog being 10 pounds overweight helped the situation either


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Timothy Saunders said:


> hey Chris, I don't think people rely on the xray to much. Dogs like yours cost a lot of money and people just want to get as much right about the dog as possible.. so much about breeding is chance that you would like the health to kind of be the one thing you don't have to worry about


Maybe I’ll get my dog x-rayed for the hell of it one day


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## Lynda Myers (Jul 16, 2008)

Chris McDonald said:


> I have not seen the GS of long ago but I have a hard time believing that they had the rear end of today’s GS. I don’t think it is impossible that the x-ray and the modern vet may have contributed to the decline of there quality. What is your reasoning for their decline in quality, or do think there is none?


I think what has cause the decline in overall quality is choosing for looks above everything else, not testing in all avenues and venues and loving the sport more then the welfare of the breed. 
In days past dogs were chosen on performance and temperament leaving form to follow function. So dogs weren't selected and bred for exaggerations.
My breed is plagued with several serious issues CHD being one of the worst problems. So not to use the very basic tests is down right stupid, lazy and seflish on the part of the breeder. Especially when a simple test could shed some light in an otherwise darken room. Not to mention why would a breeder expect a buyer to willing to shell out good money (thousand or more ) on a pup/dog they've done nothing to even guard against passing along a serious health problem. Sorry that's just too much money to be dropping down on an untested dog I don't care what the line has accomplished work wise.. guess money is no object with some. 

Don't know about the rest of you but I work hard for my money!!:lol:


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

anyone else think DM its a common problem in sheps that is hereditary that shows up about 6-7 I have had a couple dogs with this , and ya it looks like hip issues but is not


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## Lynda Myers (Jul 16, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> In all probability the hips were good and would have stayed good if the dogs were out of the house and in a natural environment. LOL


 LOL... whatever Don to make the assertion that all dogs live in the house sleeping on the couch is just wrong. hehehe Some people still believe dogs should be treated like dogs.;-)


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Lynda Myers said:


> I think what has cause the decline in overall quality is choosing for looks above everything else, not testing in all avenues and venues and loving the sport more then the welfare of the breed.
> In days past dogs were chosen on performance and temperament leaving form to follow function. So dogs weren't selected and bred for exaggerations.
> My breed is plagued with several serious issues CHD being one of the worst problems. So not to use the very basic tests is down right stupid, lazy and seflish on the part of the breeder. Especially when a simple test could shed some light in an otherwise darken room. Not to mention why would a breeder expect a buyer to willing to shell out good money (thousand or more ) on a pup/dog they've done nothing to even guard against passing along a serious health problem. Sorry that's just too much money to be dropping down on an untested dog I don't care what the line has accomplished work wise.. guess money is no object with some.
> 
> Don't know about the rest of you but I work hard for my money!!:lol:


Im not saying not to x-ray, I am just pointing out that sometimes the best intentions could back fire and wanted to see what others had to say.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Since I buy 18 - 24 month old dogs, not having xrays would be negligent on my part. The training time, the time the Trooper is off the road, the expense of keeping them away from home for 16 weeks add up. A hundred and fifty bucks for an xray is pretty cheap, considering. It wouldn't make sense to buy a dog with questionable hips. I don't even accept the breeder/vendor supplied xrays, but the sale is contigent on my own veterinarian examination, including xrays. 
bad hips won't improve, just because you don't know about them.

DFrost


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## Martin Koops (Oct 15, 2009)

I know a gentlemen that has been manipulating dogs for about 60years. When we spoke about modern dogs he said to me most of the problems he sees are due to dogs being overweight and poorly exercised.

Xrays are great but if your going to have your dog carry around 5kg of fat so he looks BIG or you reduce your pups exercise during development so the xray will look great at 12-24 months don't be surprised when the dog breaks down latter in life.


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## Sanda Stankovic (Jan 10, 2009)

Chris McDonald said:


> Cant “degenerate changes” be hereditary? Wouldn’t a dog be likely to pass this problem on? I don’t think the dog being 10 pounds overweight helped the situation either


I would say yes BUT, like with HD, its hard to say how much of an effect food has on it, how much is other stuff in the environment that contributes to it. I am guessing that like with HD, ligament issues are part genetics, part environment.


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## Maureen A Osborn (Feb 12, 2010)

Ya gotta remember that CHD stems from the hips being too loose in the socket....the looseness comes from LIGAMENT problems...I am waiting for them to figure out that the ACL problems also stems from the same kind of issues of loose hips. A ligament in the hip is made up of the same stuff as in a knee and elsewhere. When you do OFA or Penn Hip xrays, you are looking at both ligament laxity AND changes in the bone. IMHO all of the above is both genetic and environmental.
To answer the OP question, I feel that xrays should be taken on breeding dogs to use as one of the MANY TOOLS that one should be using to base a breeding upon.


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## Kerry Foose (Feb 20, 2010)

Martin Koops said:


> I know a gentlemen that has been manipulating dogs for about 60years. When we spoke about modern dogs he said to me most of the problems he sees are due to dogs being overweight and poorly exercised.
> 
> Xrays are great but if your going to have your dog carry around 5kg of fat so he looks BIG or you reduce your pups exercise during development so the xray will look great at 12-24 months don't be surprised when the dog breaks down latter in life.




_I wholeheartedly agree... On my farm...my dogs earn their meals by working daily. And they are healthier for it. If I dare be so bold, in fact I would go so far as to say that Americans are in the same boat....our health as a society has declined due to the sedentary lifestyle coupled with easy foods, lol....Ya didn't see too many fat folks in the pioneer days because those folks actually earned their meals. And on our farm...our dogs and our family earn their meals. And we are all healthier for it in my estimation._
Kerry


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Lynda Myers said:


> I think what has cause the decline in overall quality is choosing for looks above everything else, not testing in all avenues and venues and loving the sport more then the welfare of the breed.
> In days past dogs were chosen on performance and temperament leaving form to follow function. So dogs weren't selected and bred for exaggerations.
> My breed is plagued with several serious issues CHD being one of the worst problems. So not to use the very basic tests is down right stupid, lazy and seflish on the part of the breeder. Especially when a simple test could shed some light in an otherwise darken room. Not to mention why would a breeder expect a buyer to willing to shell out good money (thousand or more ) on a pup/dog they've done nothing to even guard against passing along a serious health problem. Sorry that's just too much money to be dropping down on an untested dog I don't care what the line has accomplished work wise.. guess money is no object with some.
> 
> Don't know about the rest of you but I work hard for my money!!:lol:


I had some folks here today from S Calif. We were talking about hips and overall health and the general way dogs are raised and treated today. She was a semi retired teacher don't know what the husband did but they had a new BMW. I won't go into what was said but it coverd a lot. I told them to look around the yard at the dogs and gave the ages of several.....then I told them that not one had ever been in a vets office. I explained that is because I don't save the weak because they are the ones that keep the vets in business and are a drain on the owners both emotionally and financially....but the vets love em. I even told them that every breeder in the yard had had parvo and that it wasn't that hard to overcome it. They were here for about 4 hours and left a deposit for a pup. Lynda is correct in that breeding for looks is bad business. Vet'[s are as culpable as any breeder in the decline of dog health IMO. Tnhey make it to easy to save dogs that would not have survived without them. It is all about money on both sides. The dogs are just the pawns.


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## Jack Roberts (Sep 5, 2008)

No one has brought up spaying and neutering young dogs. There is an increase of hip dysplasia and other orthopedic disorders from spaying or neutering your dog. You can see on the following link down below. Actually Don may be interested since the article mentions Airedales and increased HD from early spaying and neutering. 

This article is from scientific literature not just someone's opinion. The studies are referenced at the bottom of the page.

Link to article: 

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/longtermhealtheffectsofspayneuterindogs.pdf

Look at the part about Orthopedic Disorders, if you want to read about some of the bone and ligament problems that occur.

I never agreed with spaying and neutering animals young. Apparently, vets know about this but continue promoting spaying and neutering of young dogs. It sounds a lot like yearly vaccinations. A money-making operation that helps makes more money for vets.


ACL problems:

I think you have this problem in the mastiff type breeds than shepherds. Cruciate ligament tears seem prevalent in the American Bulldog It also seems prevalent in the more muscular breeds. I had an APBT that had a ligament cruciate tear. I’ve heard of other APBT having cruciate tears. I have know Rotts that have had the same problem. It seems that the dogs that it occurs in have straighter back legs and a more muscular body build. I have not heard of that many cruciate tears in the Malinois breed. It makes sense that you would not have that many tears, since the dogs have been bred in the past to go over long jumps and walls. A dog prone to ACL tears would not hold up to the wear and tear of ring training. I have not seen to many Border Collies with cruciate tears either.


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## Maureen A Osborn (Feb 12, 2010)

Jack Roberts said:


> ACL problems:
> 
> I think you have this problem in the mastiff type breeds than shepherds. Cruciate ligament tears seem prevalent in the American Bulldog It also seems prevalent in the more muscular breeds. I had an APBT that had a ligament cruciate tear. I’ve heard of other APBT having cruciate tears. I have know Rotts that have had the same problem. It seems that the dogs that it occurs in have straighter back legs and a more muscular body build. I have not heard of that many cruciate tears in the Malinois breed. It makes sense that you would not have that many tears, since the dogs have been bred in the past to go over long jumps and walls. A dog prone to ACL tears would not hold up to the wear and tear of ring training. I have not seen to many Border Collies with cruciate tears either.


Yep, I am seeing it more and more in dogos, and if you look at the stats, the dogo is 11th highest overall in percent of dysplastic xrays.


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## Lynda Myers (Jul 16, 2008)

Jack Roberts said:


> No one has brought up spaying and neutering young dogs. There is an increase of hip dysplasia and other orthopedic disorders from spaying or neutering your dog. You can see on the following link down below. Actually Don may be interested since the article mentions Airedales and increased HD from early spaying and neutering. This article is from scientific literature not just someone's opinion. The studies are referenced at the bottom of the page. Link to article: http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/longtermhealtheffectsofspayneuterindogs.pdf Look at the part about Orthopedic Disorders, if you want to read about some of the bone and ligament problems that occur. I never agreed with spaying and neutering animals young. Apparently, vets know about this but continue promoting spaying and neutering of young dogs. It sounds a lot like yearly vaccinations. A money-making operation that helps makes more money for vets. ACL problems: I think you have this problem in the mastiff type breeds than shepherds. Cruciate ligament tears seem prevalent in the American Bulldog It also seems prevalent in the more muscular breeds. I had an APBT that had a ligament cruciate tear. I’ve heard of other APBT having cruciate tears. I have know Rotts that have had the same problem. It seems that the dogs that it occurs in have straighter back legs and a more muscular body build. I have not heard of that many cruciate tears in the Malinois breed. It makes sense that you would not have that many tears, since the dogs have been bred in the past to go over long jumps and walls. A dog prone to ACL tears would not up to the wear and tear of ring training. I have not seen to many Border Collies with cruciate tears either.



In my younger days I worked at the local animal shelter (5th largest in the country). I remember when pediatric sterilization became all the rage and what a God sent some thought it was. But I can still hear Dr. Saueressig aka Chief's voice clear as a bell in my head. She said we will not be following suit until I know what the long term affects will be. Now here we are 20-25 years later and damn if her words weren't pearls of wisdom. 

Jack you hit the nail right on the head with that one. Straight stifles are a problem in ABs and they do have a tendency to lack correct rear angulation . Grant it they are much improved over past dogs but is still pretty common. Couple that with activates like weight pull or anything that puts a lot of torque on the knees and it's disaster waiting to happen. Which brings us right back to the breeder and his responsibility to the breed...vicious cycle isn't it. That's why it's imperative for the breeders to keep the WHOLE dog in focus when planning the next generation. Periodically asking themselves is this dog capable of performing the duties they were originally created for?

FYI OFA does have a test to check cruciate ligament as well!! But hell if ya can't get people to agree on the importance of hips checks what are the chances they look at the knees?


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Chris McDonald said:


> Maybe I’ll get my dog x-rayed for the hell of it one day


I had my Jett done for piece of mind and I paid a good chunk of change for him also for breed information.
I'll mention his father Kway has sired well over 100 pups and there are no reports of any dysplasia. 
This is useful information down the road when someone is looking back at hip rating on these lines what was working and who might have been making them work. Kway's father Asko also had a low dysplasia numbers.
All this documentation is much better than here say.
Gildo Korbelbach was hell of a dog and is legend every one wanted his puppies he was a excellent producer
He also produced allot of bad hips and breeders had to be very mindful when going back on to him when line breeding


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Mike Scheiber said:


> I had my Jett done for piece of mind and I paid a good chunk of change for him also for breed information.
> I'll mention his father Kway has sired well over 100 pups and there are no reports of any dysplasia.
> This is useful information down the road when someone is looking back at hip rating on these lines what was working and who might have been making them work. Kway's father Asko also had a low dysplasia numbers.
> All this documentation is much better than here say.
> ...


I don’t know how much it would really help in my situation. None of the other dogs at the facility have ever been x-rayed, no one else who owns a dog from the facility has ever had there’s x-rayed. Hell I don’t even know who the father or mother to my dog is. And I am OK with all of it.


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## Jack Roberts (Sep 5, 2008)

Hi Chris,

As long as you like your dog that is all that matters. Personally, I feel you can learn a lot more about a dog by observing him than just looking at a pedigree. A pedigree helps but it is not the only answer. Often times, people make excuses for a dog if the pedigree is good. People will say he/she is just maturing slower, etc... 

I do not know if you have kids but each one is different. They come from the same parents but are usually vastly different. I think you see the same thing in dog world.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Maureen A Osborn said:


> Ya gotta remember that CHD stems from the hips being too loose in the socket....the looseness comes from LIGAMENT problems...I am waiting for them to figure out that the ACL problems also stems from the same kind of issues of loose hips. A ligament in the hip is made up of the same stuff as in a knee and elsewhere. When you do OFA or Penn Hip xrays, you are looking at both ligament laxity AND changes in the bone. IMHO all of the above is both genetic and environmental.
> To answer the OP question, I feel that xrays should be taken on breeding dogs to use as one of the MANY TOOLS that one should be using to base a breeding upon.


No. CCL problems don't have to do with looseness. It's an actual degenerate breakdown of the ligament so it eventually comes apart. Hip dysplasia has to do more with the coxofemoral joint socket. As I said before, one of the top breeds for hip dysplasia are GSDs and CCL ruptures are uncommon in that breed, which is good because they already have big problems with hip dysplasia, elbow dysplasia, lumbosacral disease, panosteitis, etc.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Lynda Myers said:


> Depends on the age of the dog at the time of x-ray. OFA found that dogs who were x-rayed at one year age could and did develop CHD between the ages of one and two years of age. Which is why they (OFA) changed the certification age to two years old. Because there were a significant amount of dogs who did develop CHD after the age one that had x-rayed normal a one year old.


Just seen this, thanks!

All the more reason why I X-Ray my dogs at about 16 - 18 months.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Forgot to add though....the poster child for CCL ruptures are a fat 6 year old female spayed lab, so obesity is an issue.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

As I said before, one of the top breeds for hip dysplasia are GSDs and CCL ruptures are uncommon in that breed, which is good because they already have big problems with hip dysplasia, elbow dysplasia, lumbosacral disease, panosteitis, etc.

Maren, are basing your findings solely on USA GSDs?

DDR dogs were bred only completely free of hip displaysia and many of the Western Leistungshunde GSDs are free of HD as a rule.

The slanting back and over angulated hind legs cannot be responsible for HD according to Marc Flückiger, at Zürich Tierspital, but are otherwise unhealthy for the dog.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I don't have GSDs so I don't follow their origins and pedigrees much in particular, but there's plenty of working line GSDs (often imports or from recently imported lines) that get CHD, pano, lumbosacral disease, and elbow dysplasia like show lines do. As commonly as the show lines? Probably not, but we probably wouldn't have much of a health section on the forum if there wasn't. Can't comment on the guy you suggested as I honestly haven't heard of him (which doesn't necessarily mean anything).

Here's an interesting point of discussion from a new article on the longer body types being possibly related to hip dysplasia. An interesting point as Malinois are typically more square than GSDs, though probably not universally applicable to all breeds. Haven't read the whole article yet, but here's the abstract.



> Vet J. 2010 Mar;183(3):266-72. Epub 2009 Dec 2.
> *Selection for breed-specific long-bodied phenotypes is associated with increased expression of canine hip dysplasia.*
> 
> Roberts T, McGreevy PD.
> ...


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

This is a bit off topic in some ways, but, there are the believers on this thread that are of the opinion that science trumps all. Many seem to have trpuble differentiating science, from those that use science for a profit. Read this and note the other links at the bottom of the article. Then continue on with the discussion on HD with the realizatioin there absolutely is good science.....and there are those that use that good science ingenuously to make truck loads of money at the expense of your pocket book and your emotions.

http://terriermandotcom.blogspot.com/2008/05/billion-dollar-heartworm-scam.html


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## Sanda Stankovic (Jan 10, 2009)

*By favouring body shapes that are longer than they are tall, judges may be inadvertently selecting for conformational attributes predisposing dogs to HD*, 


Wolves are longer than tall, yet have survivded without apparent problem of HD. So have wild cats, they are extremely long in the body... Functionally longer body is more advantageous than short, ie. square body. BTW, I wouldnt say Mallinos are more square than GSD (their length is more definately greater than their height).


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

All of nature has animals that are long in the body, little cats, big cats wolve coyotes. It is the universal build for predators. Best of Breed" implys show people that sit down and look at the various styles of their chosen breed and pick the dogs that look the best walking. You want to a dog that can't run, pick a square built dog.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Don't y'all hate reality?


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Sanda Stankovic said:


> *By favouring body shapes that are longer than they are tall, judges may be inadvertently selecting for conformational attributes predisposing dogs to HD*,
> 
> 
> Wolves are longer than tall, yet have survivded without apparent problem of HD. So have wild cats, they are extremely long in the body... Functionally longer body is more advantageous than short, ie. square body.


Have you seen wolves in person? They are quite tall and leggy. That's why they look bigger than they are heavy. Like they often might weigh about the same as a large German shepherd (they get larger the further north you go), but are significantly taller. Don't know if any of the sanctuaries or zoos have realy looked at the incidence of hip dysplasia though. Would make an interesting study.

Wild cats from house cats to lions and tigers are also built for stalking and short chasing, not distance like most wild canids. Even cheetahs only run a few hundred yards in a chase. And yes, big cats can and do get hip dysplasia. Our vet school did a bilateral total hip replacement on a snow leopard with hip dysplasia from the Kansas City Zoo in 1999. Maybe more have been done since, I'm not sure as I'm not real caught up on exotic big cat orthopaedics. :wink:



> BTW, I wouldnt say Mallinos are more square than GSD (their length is more definately greater than their height).


From the AKC Malinois standard:



> *General Appearance*
> The Belgian Malinois is a well balanced, square dog, elegant in appearance with an exceedingly proud carriage of the head and neck. The dog is strong, agile, well muscled, alert, and full of life. He stands squarely on all fours and viewed from the side, the topline, forelegs, and hind legs *closely approximate a square.* The whole conformation gives the impression of depth and solidity without bulkiness. The male is usually somewhat more impressive and grand than his female counterpart, which has a distinctly feminine look.


My male is 25.5" at the shoulder and 26" long to the rump. My female is 24" by 25". 



> *Size, Proportion, Substance*
> Males are 24 to 26 inches in height; females are 22 to 24 inches; measurement to be taken at the withers. Males under 23 inches or over 27 inches and females under 21 inches or over 25 inches are to be disqualified. The length, measured from the point of the breastbone to the point of the rump, should equal the height, but bitches may be slightly longer. *A square dog is preferred*. Bone structure is moderately heavy in proportion to height so that the dog is well balanced throughout and neither spindly or leggy nor cumbersome and bulky.


And the AKC GSD standard:



> *General Appearance*
> The first impression of a good German Shepherd Dog is that of a strong, agile, well muscled animal, alert and full of life. It is well balanced, with harmonious development of the forequarter and hindquarter. *The dog is longer than tall*, deep-bodied, and presents an outline of smooth curves rather than angles. It looks substantial and not spindly, giving the impression, both at rest and in motion, of muscular fitness and nimbleness without any look of clumsiness or soft living. The ideal dog is stamped with a look of quality and nobility--difficult to define, but unmistakable when present. Secondary sex characteristics are strongly marked, and every animal gives a definite impression of masculinity or femininity, according to its sex...
> 
> *Size, Proportion, Substance*
> ...


And for those curious about the speed of animal, the AKC standard for greyhounds doesn't specify, but the whippet does:



> *Size, Proportion, Substance*
> Ideal height for dogs, 19 to 22 inches; for bitches, 18 to 21 inches, measured at the highest point of the withers. More than one-half inch above or below the stated limits will disqualify. *Length from forechest to buttocks equal to or slightly greater than height at the withers.* Moderate bone throughout.


i.e.- Square!


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Don't y'all hate reality?


I love reality more than talking out of my ass.


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## Sanda Stankovic (Jan 10, 2009)

Without looking into the standard itself, there are more than enough Malinos and GSDs on this board. Look at their proportions and then compare height vs length. Yes, looking at pics of wolves, they are longer than tall. So are majority of hunting dogs. 




> And for those curious about the speed of animal, the AKC standard for greyhounds doesn't specify, but the whippet does


Dog needs to be longer than tall because that increases their agility, has nothing to do with speed... So all hunting dogs are longer than tall for that reason. Google leverage... 

If you look at OFFA website, and then compare worst hip scores to the body shape, you will see that there is no correlation. 

BTW, if one wanted to do such comparison, you would have to do it within breed, comparing slightly longer vs slightly shorter dogs, not comparing different breeds. 
If that study compared eye colour, I am sure they would have found that HD correlates with dark eye colour.


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## Sanda Stankovic (Jan 10, 2009)

in fact, if you want to argue body length to HD, dalmatians, collies and Husky's are all better HD-wise than most breeds, yet are most definately longer than tall.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I love reality more than talking out of my ass.


Never would have come to that conclusion Maren.


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## Maureen A Osborn (Feb 12, 2010)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> No. CCL problems don't have to do with looseness. It's an actual degenerate breakdown of the ligament so it eventually comes apart. Hip dysplasia has to do more with the coxofemoral joint socket. As I said before, one of the top breeds for hip dysplasia are GSDs and CCL ruptures are uncommon in that breed, which is good because they already have big problems with hip dysplasia, elbow dysplasia, lumbosacral disease, panosteitis, etc.


Actually, the # 1 breed with CHD is the bulldog http://www.offa.org/hipstatbreed.html

A ligament is a ligament, whether it be of the knee,hip, or whatever. It is made up of the same "substance" if you will. What I am currently seeing in the Dogo are ACL injuries in which the mechanism of injury(just running or jumping, no real major trauma) does not explain the severity of the injury. There has to be an underlying physical problem (let it be from genetics or bad diet,etc) to cause the ligament to rupture that easy(its a hunting dog that is supposed to take a beating from a boar and it ruptures its ACL from plain running???). I am seeing a lot of orthopedic injuries lately in children that the mechanism doesn;t fit the injury, and there are usually underlying causes.

Moving onto CHD....when you submit xrays to OFA or PENN hip they are telling you more than one thing....
1) the ligaments just plain being too loose (where it has NOTHING to do with the bone)...in PENN hip they measure that by the DI, in FCI the measure it by the Norberg angle, and OFA is supposedly looking at the Norberg angle according to their site.....in Penn hip the DI may be higher than the average but there is still no sign of DJD.... in OFA if a certain percent of the femoral head is not covered by the acetabulum, they still classify it as dysplastic, EVEN IF there are NO SIGNS of bone changes or DJD
2) the size/shape of the head of the femur and the size/shape acetabulum....if either are mis-shapen,too big,too small, etc(which can have NOTHING to do with the ligaments,deformed bones also can be genetic or bad diet) it will not articulate properly, and will eventually cause DJD (osteophytes,remodeling, etc).....I had a dogo whose head of his left femur was so small I couldn't figure out how he moved like he did, that hip was majorily subluxated because of the size of the head of the femur.
3)It also tells you of already noted bone changes, osteophytes, remodeling, etc.

I will be a little more adult here and not make an inference about "talking out someone's ass" and will just say I will agree to disagree with your above post and say that my post is an educated hypothesis that I have come up with.
PS, I have been working in the medical field for over 20 years now, from sports medicine,physical therapy,orthopedics, and now emergency medicine, to which I am licensed and certified. I am not looking to argue or prove anyone wrong, just to share my knowledge.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Maureen A Osborn said:


> Actually, the # 1 breed with CHD is the bulldog http://www.offa.org/hipstatbreed.html
> 
> A ligament is a ligament, whether it be of the knee,hip, or whatever. It is made up of the same "substance" if you will. What I am currently seeing in the Dogo are ACL injuries in which the mechanism of injury(just running or jumping, no real major trauma) does not explain the severity of the injury. There has to be an underlying physical problem (let it be from genetics or bad diet,etc) to cause the ligament to rupture that easy(its a hunting dog that is supposed to take a beating from a boar and it ruptures its ACL from plain running???). I am seeing a lot of orthopedic injuries lately in children that the mechanism doesn;t fit the injury, and there are usually underlying causes.
> 
> ...


:lol:Oh boy your going to be trumped very shortly#-o


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Maren said,


> And for those curious about the speed of animal, the AKC standard for greyhounds doesn't specify, but the whippet does:
> 
> 
> Quote:
> ...


Once again, those are AKC ie. Show standards...ie. Coldbloods. Hotbloods are pretty much in a different ballpark Maren. Show stock isn't bred to run.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

The show standards for terriers often call for a square dog. This leads to a dog that has to crab walk in order to avoid stepping on his own front feet with his back feet. 
I showed half a dozen different terrier breeds in the conformation ring and getting a proper gait can be an art in itself........unless you have a dog with a good natural gate.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Bob, they want airedales square also. The breed club and myself knock heads over that all the time. If they can't go to ground, they shouldn't be built like the den terriers. They need to be long and limber.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

A good earth dog is long, lean, narrow and flexible. 
In looking for a working pup in the earth dogs I want a pup that I can fold in half and touch the nose to it's ass. (Flexible) They need to be able to turn around in a six inch tunnel. 
I will also pull both front legs together to where the elbows touch. (Narrow) Need to get through anything it can put it's head into. Similar to a cat.
Long and lean are easy enough to see with the eye.
Of all the "show dogs" the Border Terrier is one of the few that still fit the standards but the Borders are going the way of the show dog in they judges want more "fire" in the dogs. ](*,)
Borders aren't supposed to have "fire" outside of facing quarry.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Maureen A Osborn said:


> Actually, the # 1 breed with CHD is the bulldog http://www.offa.org/hipstatbreed.html
> 
> A ligament is a ligament, whether it be of the knee,hip, or whatever. It is made up of the same "substance" if you will. What I am currently seeing in the Dogo are ACL injuries in which the mechanism of injury(just running or jumping, no real major trauma) does not explain the severity of the injury. There has to be an underlying physical problem (let it be from genetics or bad diet,etc) to cause the ligament to rupture that easy(its a hunting dog that is supposed to take a beating from a boar and it ruptures its ACL from plain running???). I am seeing a lot of orthopedic injuries lately in children that the mechanism doesn;t fit the injury, and there are usually underlying causes.
> 
> ...


Unfortunately, dog CCL ruptures aren't a very good model for human ACLs, despite your experience in humans. In dogs, only a very small percentage actually happen through force based trauma like stepping in a hole while running, hit by car, etc, while in humans, this is usually how it happens (skiing accident, football accident, playing baseketball, etc etc). Almost always the owner will report "he/she just came up non weight bearing or barely weight baring lame one day." Can it happen traumatically as in humans? Yes, but it is almost always due to a degenerative change and I believe researchers have proven it is genetic in Newfoundlands. They're probably looking into it for other breeds like labs, Rottweilers, and pit bulls. For some other reason, German shepherds seem relatively resistant to it. We don't know why yet.

As I said, we also know the method of CCL repair that works the least effectively is when they put an autograft or allograft in and try and recreate the CCL. In addition, a CCL tear will happen in the other stifle joint about 50% of the time. While part of that is certainly due to extra stress being put on the "good" side while the other is injured, there's something about the environment of the stifle in these animals which is degenerative which is not degenerative in humans where a graft would be appropriate. So that's an adjustment that human PTs need to be cognizant of if they get certified in canine rehabilitation is that from a comparative anatomy and pathophysiology perspective is going to be different. 

In regards to the hip joint, I do realize it's more than one thing, unlike the CCL where that's the major player (but not the only). The round ligament of the head of the femur is the one that is involved in the ligamentous change. I've assisted on a few total hip replacement surgeries and in some of the cases, the round ligament is literally just obliterated, likely from constant subluxation of the joint. In others, it is still present even with severe enough hip dysplasia due to poor coverage of the acetabulum to warrant total hip replacement. So while the round ligament plays a role, I would suspect the bone components play a bigger role in the course of the disease of CHD vs. the CCL, which of course causes problems if it is taken out of the equation allowing cranial drawer and subsequent pain/arthritis and other sequella. 

Then we also have the muscle component, which has a big role since you can literally cut the head and neck of the femur off leaving nothing but the muscle in place as a salvage procedure for even a 100 lbs dog (femoral head and neck excision) and even the bigger dogs can sometimes do relatively okay as pets with no more bone in the picture. So I agree that it's a concert of a total picture for CHD whereas a CCL tear unfortunately gives you much fewer options. It's usually surgical to correct it, though I hear some folks in canine rehab suggest you can do some rehab to help.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

This is square:










Apologies to Kadi, but I don't have good side views of my own dogs. This is Kadi's dog Mac (my dog's father), who is also nearly square:










And Kadi's Chaos (Fawkes's mom):










I don't have a good side view of my girl Lily, who is also pretty close to being square (ground to withers, sternum to ischiatic tuberosity) and who is also very very fast. That's what is meant by square. Just about GSD, even working lines (but even more so on show lines, which was the point of that journal article) is a good bit longer than they are tall at the withers. That's why saying "square dogs are slow" are silly. Heck, the fastest land mammal is the cheetah and that's really square for a cat. 

Another element that you guys might think of is square is where the legs are put together under the head. A dog that goes down from the withers to the legs is biomechanically better put together than a dog who looks more "square" (which is I think where the confusion is coming from) with their head, neck, withers/shoulders and legs just forming one single column down. For exam, note the difference in the fronts, especially where the withers are in relation to the neck, of these three show boxers:












versus: 




















The more "square" look of the second dog is supposedly more favored in the show ring (even though it's not as good for performance), but that's not what is meant by square in proportion, which is actual measurement.


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## Sanda Stankovic (Jan 10, 2009)

> That's why saying "square dogs are slow" are silly. Heck, the fastest land mammal is the cheetah and that's really square for a cat.


Physically speaking, there is no situation in which shorter body length is more advantageous, not a single one, in dogs or wild animals. 

Within a breed you will find dogs that are longer and shorter, but overall working dogs will not be short in the body. 

To say that body length has anything to do with HD is like saying that eye colour has something to do with HD. In fact, if you wanted to make a correlation between eye colour and HD one could say that brown eye colour in dogs is associated with HD.


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## Maureen A Osborn (Feb 12, 2010)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Unfortunately, dog CCL ruptures aren't a very good model for human ACLs, despite your experience in humans. In dogs, only a very small percentage actually happen through force based trauma like stepping in a hole while running, hit by car, etc, while in humans, this is usually how it happens (skiing accident, football accident, playing baseketball, etc etc). Almost always the owner will report "he/she just came up non weight bearing or barely weight baring lame one day." Can it happen traumatically as in humans? Yes, but it is almost always due to a degenerative change and I believe researchers have proven it is genetic in Newfoundlands. They're probably looking into it for other breeds like labs, Rottweilers, and pit bulls. For some other reason, German shepherds seem relatively resistant to it. We don't know why yet.
> 
> As I said, we also know the method of CCL repair that works the least effectively is when they put an autograft or allograft in and try and recreate the CCL. In addition, a CCL tear will happen in the other stifle joint about 50% of the time. While part of that is certainly due to extra stress being put on the "good" side while the other is injured, there's something about the environment of the stifle in these animals which is degenerative which is not degenerative in humans where a graft would be appropriate. So that's an adjustment that human PTs need to be cognizant of if they get certified in canine rehabilitation is that from a comparative anatomy and pathophysiology perspective is going to be different.
> 
> ...


Thanks for adding your bit of knowledge to mine. I will add it to what I know. Now, this is nothing against you, but my trust for vets and vet medicine has been ruined by multiple experiences with them(and different vets and different pets) as to when I went with my knowledge and what I would have done to treat a human vs what they told me to do resulted in much more favorable outcome(and much cheaper) vs when they went against what I told them to do and it cost me 10K and a dead dog. I won't hijack this thread and go into details, but if you want to know, you are more than welcome to pm me and I will tell you. Oh,. let me add, I don;t 100 % trust human doctors either and usually add in my own knowledge to theirs to decide what is best for myself or my patients.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Why in the world would the radiograph "hurt" the breeding? That's like having a bunch of unprotected sex and then getting HIV or another STD and blaming it on the tests that detect them. It also doesn't mean that just because you got an HIV test and passed, doesn't mean you don't also have gonorrhea. Realize that hind end lameness can be due to many things, not just hip dysplasia.


I haven't read all of this thread because I'm in favour of X-raying. No layman, in my opinion is able to say what hip score the dog has without x-raying and as Maren says above, other injuries such as lameness can be due to many things. My dog started dragging his leg along as he walked although he was HD-free. What was it? Spinal problem! A lot just say accept such things and put it down to HD but as far as I know, and Maren can correct me if wrong, HD is a "mechanical defect" and if not perfect, can allow arthrose to creep in, causing problems, often around 6yrs for dogs that had reasonably good hips.

My Newfoundland had L "1" R "2" (Swiss "light / light medium") maybe but after being x-rayed at 8 years' old, the old, experienced vet declared that his hips were very good for a large dog of those years. He had a knee problem. So no arthrose creeping in between the gap caused by not so perfect hips ('scuse layman English).

With breeds that are prolific in number I would only breed HD free and to know this, you have to x-ray the dogs that owners are willing to have x-rayed. the others just endanger the breed.


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## Maureen A Osborn (Feb 12, 2010)

Maren, I just wanted to add something I just thought of also. In humans there is something called "Marfan Syndrome" where its outward noticable sign you see is a tall,skinny person with longer than normal appendages whose joints are extremely hypermobile. 
It is sometimes inherited as a dominant trait. It is carried by a gene called FBN1, which encodes a connective protein called fibrillin-1.[1][2] People have a pair of FBN1 genes. Because it is dominant, people who have inherited one affected FBN1 gene from either parent will have Marfan's. This syndrome can run from mild to severe.
In addition to being a connective protein that forms the structural support for tissues outside the cell, the normal fibrillin-1 protein binds to another protein, transforming growth factor beta (TGF-β).[2] TGF-β has deleterious effects on vascular smooth muscle development and the integrity of the extracellular matrix. Researchers now believe that secondary to mutated fibrillin there is excessive TGF-β at the lungs, heart valves, and aorta, and this weakens the tissues and causes the features of Marfan syndrome. 
Anyways, just throwing out thoughts as to possibilities of causes since vet medicine still hasnt isolated the gene(s) responsible for CHD and whatnot. SInce I know dogs get autoimmune disease just like we do,and a lot of treatments are very similar to ours, things like this cross my mind all the time.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Maureen said,


> Anyways, *just throwing out thoughts as to possibilities of causes since vet medicine still hasnt isolated the gene(s) responsible for CHD* and whatnot. SInce I know dogs get autoimmune disease just like we do,and a lot of treatments are very similar to ours, things like this cross my mind all the time.


It causes me to wonder also. To much just doesn't wash and there is a lot of money and vets connected to it. I say 90% of this is environmental.


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