# Mal/Huskies for sled dogs? Why is this not a thing"



## Jami Craig (Jul 5, 2010)

I've been hanging around some mushers who are starting to get their dogs in shape for the fall and working Gamble (almost 3 year old malinois) on a bike with them. He's fast, he loves to pull, and we've been having a great time!

He's caught the attention of a few of them because apparently he gaits well (aka: super long trot that he can do forever) and because he's a mal who constantly wants to learn he's easy to train. He got the directionals down no problem, his speed control is great, at home we're working on the confidence to run alone but that's just a training thing. This fall a friend of mine is going to stick him with one of her experienced lead dogs to give him some proper lessons but he's been having a GREAT time and has taken to the sport.


All the sudden there's talk of crossing malinois into the alaskan huskies for something that's easier to train and more handler oreinted, but still structurally compliments the alaskan, doesn't compromise any drive, and maintains a strong work ethic. It actually sounded like a good idea if that's what you were going for and for fun I decided to look up some of those crosses. Admittedly it was mostly because I wanted to see fun looking crossbred dogs (admit you you totally look up "poodle X doberman" in google to see the horror) but I am actually curious about the temperament and running ability of this cross because it does seem like it would work in theory.

...but I can't seem to find anyone who's done it. Which is odd because from what I understand outcrossing to different breeds is common and perfectly acceptable in the alaskan husky and I've found reports of outcrosses to almost every other breed out there. I've found articles where they've crossed in dobermans which I honestly don't understand at all, german shepherds (that isn't something that structurally compliments an alaskan husky, I'm picturing trainwreck puppies?). Of course there's the hound crosses but that's for a completely different reason and those seem quite successful.

So why HASN'T anyone tried this? Or did someone try it and for some reason it went so bad no one spoke of it again? I know a while back there was that BYB who tried to market the "huskyinois" or something like that but that was showline siberian to malinois for something they wanted to do bitework with....THAT makes no sense to me, but working alaskan to working mal of the right structure seems to get what you want but not lose to much (if any) of the drive to work and pull. I was wondering if it was because they were to similar? Why make the cross in the first place, just run malinois? But if that were the case I'm confused why there aren't more mals racing? Are they just not well known enough?


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Jami Craig said:


> I've been hanging around some mushers who are starting to get their dogs in shape for the fall and working Gamble (almost 3 year old malinois) on a bike with them. He's fast, he loves to pull, and we've been having a great time!
> 
> He's caught the attention of a few of them because apparently he gaits well (aka: super long trot that he can do forever) and because he's a mal who constantly wants to learn he's easy to train. He got the directionals down no problem, his speed control is great, at home we're working on the confidence to run alone but that's just a training thing. This fall a friend of mine is going to stick him with one of her experienced lead dogs to give him some proper lessons but he's been having a GREAT time and has taken to the sport.
> 
> ...


Maybe cause they would rip the musher apart? lol jk would be kool to see a blue eyed mal. Bite work in the warm months, sledding in the winter..whats not to love? :-D


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I know of at least one accidental breeding of this combo, contact Maren Bell Jones here on the WDF, she has a pup from the breeding.


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

There is a family in Montana that has crossed huskies and Belgian Sheepdogs. 

Here is an article about the daughter: http://www.bestinshowdaily.com/blog/2013/03/jenny-creger-junior-musher-on-the-move/

Here is her kennel info with dog pedigrees. http://www.dogtec.com/kennel/anduril-kennels-jenny-greger/kennel

I didn't look at it much. I just remember her father was doing this years ago and she has dogs from his breedings. She has run the Junior Iditarod which is really cool. 

Laura


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## Jami Craig (Jul 5, 2010)

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> There is a family in Montana that has crossed huskies and Belgian Sheepdogs.
> 
> Here is an article about the daughter: http://www.bestinshowdaily.com/blog/2013/03/jenny-creger-junior-musher-on-the-move/
> 
> ...


Thanks for those links  I wonder why they did the Groenendael rather than the mals (though I suppose it maaay have something to with them breeding them prior lol)


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## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

sometimes a whole team of herders are not the funnest dogs to pass with another team :-o (alligator tendencies). In cross breeding you don't get to pick what traits are inherited also and a lot of the traits that are bred for are things like excellent feet, appetite, metabolism, endurance over distance etc and it can take more than a first generation cross to sort out what traits are coming thru. In breeding good mals you are probably selecting for some traits that are compatible and some that are not so desirable in a sled dog. jmo


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re: "In cross breeding you don't get to pick what traits are inherited"
)))))))


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

I heard it had been tried in the past. I don't remember if it was malinois to malamute, malinois to husky or what it was, but none of the breeding attempts were successful. More than one breeder made the attempt. Only one was successful and there was only one or two puppies, or something to that effect. If mother nature didn't think it a good idea, I wouldn't think it a good idea. Just saying.


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## Jami Craig (Jul 5, 2010)

Zakia Days said:


> I heard it had been tried in the past. I don't remember if it was malinois to malamute, malinois to husky or what it was, but none of the breeding attempts were successful. More than one breeder made the attempt. Only one was successful and there was only one or two puppies, or something to that effect. If mother nature didn't think it a good idea, I wouldn't think it a good idea. Just saying.


By that logic wouldn't all those doodle crosses be a GREAT thing? Or the pit bull crossed oops litters? They always seem to be HUGE. Friend of mine pulled a little crippled shepherdy thing for rescue, super underweight, very sick, two weeks later popped out 13 pit crosses, all made it....

I don't mean to be snarky but is there anything that supports that theory? I know birthrate is lower in TRUE hybrids (ligers, mules, etc) and the fact the offspring tend to be sterile does sort of seem like nature's way of saying this isn't a good idea....but dogs are all the same species?


I was more curious not a the first generation crosses, but the second or third. The sheepdog crosses seem to support that, I'm looking into them to see what they were specifically trying to add and how it worked. This is very interesting


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

what would be the benefits of this cross again for serious mushers? and who can say whether or not it would compromise the "drive" of mushing breeds by crossing in Malinois, or that it would necessarily "maintain the work ethic" of the type that good sled dogs display?

How many Mali breeders have been concentrating on breeding dogs for pulling heavy loads over long distances in extreme artic conditions, and for how long have they been doing so? 

Do sled dogs pull because they have strong work ethic to work for a handler, or some other reasons? 

Anyone ever try getting 16 strong Malis to work together towards a common goal? 

Things to also think about.


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## catherine hardigan (Oct 12, 2009)

Because mals don't bring anything to the table that isn't already there.


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## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

catherine hardigan said:


> Because mals don't bring anything to the table that isn't already there.


exactly


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I agree with Catherine and Lynn. I'm thinking "if it ain't broke..." because it seems to me that sled dogs already have tons of drive, tons of stamina, a great work ethic and are incredibly healthy and hardy. In fact not too long ago I was talking to Lynn about how I was amazed a mushers dogs were still working at 14/15 years old, she told me it's not uncommon for these dogs to be working at 11 and 12 years old and some still very much enjoy the occasional jaunt at 14!!!!

As a matter of fact, considering those factors it might not be a bad idea to go the other way around and add a little sled dog into some of the pointy eared herding breeds for some umph!!!!!!!!!!!!
:lol:


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## Catalina Valencia (Feb 20, 2008)

joby becker said:


> anyone ever try getting 16 strong malis to work together towards a common goal?


rofl!


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## Chelsey Protulipac (Feb 21, 2010)

My friend runs her 4 mals on a sled team. There are two words that describe what the result is: "shit show" and "incredible" in that order.. A 4-mal team is not for the faint of heart. But, once they are going, they have a ton of power and speed.


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## Meg O'Donovan (Aug 20, 2012)

Chelsey Protulipac said:


> My friend runs her 4 mals on a sled team. There are two words that describe what the result is: "shit show" and "incredible" in that order.. A 4-mal team is not for the faint of heart. But, once they are going, they have a ton of power and speed.


Please get some video (either practise or race). This I would like to see. 
When I look at videos of northern sled races, it does look like some of the dogs have shorter coats and have taller and lankier builds than the traditional husky or malamute, so I was wondering what kind of cross-breeding might be going on.

For example, take a look at the builds of these sled dogs from the CanaDog team. 

www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDjUkE95oqo


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

packed snow and mushy show are probably a low impact surface compared to most others and might be a contributive factor in running longevity ? maybe easier on the joints than jumping in and out of an SUV onto concrete ?

the aerobic demands of running probably builds and helps maintain a strong cardio system ?

what dog doesn't enjoy pulling ? //lol//

not too surprising that competition sled dogs are much stronger and live longer than couch potatoes and dogs who spend most of their life frustrated in a house or kennel and occasionally are given 100meter sprints when not being walked on a lead, etc

and prob why housebound huskies can often be a handful to manage  they were the flavor here about ten yrs ago, and are now rare, and the ones you do see are VERY prone to all the usual "popular dog" health issues 

fwiw, one Ja breed, the hokaido-inu, does look similar to the husky, and black shibas are VERY much husky-like in appearance (i'll post a pic on the gallery of one i worked with)

plus, if the added power a mal might provide were a primary concern, there would prob be more malamutes than huskies racing...which i don't think is the case


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## Chelsey Protulipac (Feb 21, 2010)

There are different lineages of sled dogs bred for different competition types. Long distance, mid distance, and sprinting. Lines bred to withstand Arctic temperatures versus the seasonal circuits in Northern US and South-Central Canada (lots of smooth coated sled dogs around here). Within each of these there are the teams selected for the top race circuits versus more recreational (ease of handling). Lots of variables in team selection and breeding. 

Here is her team a few months ago.. She is a member on here and these dogs cross train in pretty much everything.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9PZoVrbt1s


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Proabably a team of malinois would see a small animal or a ball and pull the damn sled off a cliff.


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## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

Just about any kind of dog can be a "sled dog" but the OP wanted to know why not mal racing teams. There is more to racing than just running fast and pulling hard - a few things you have to consider is the ability to work in very close proximity to strange dogs and people in very high noise, crowded and high excitement places(race start line, head on passing etc) , ability to be handled by strangers in rather familiar fashion with or without the handler present (checkpoints, dog drops, tangles) and a lot of other variables(like the ability to stay uninjured - this seems difficult for a lot of mals...). I like and admire Mals but I stand firm in that if I ever find a large team of them tangled- [email protected] if I am going to wade into the fray in my puffy bitesuit resembling parka to untangle them....:wink:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

There have been teams of Standard Poodles, Irish Setters, hounds, you name it. I guess it's like seeiing Chi dogs, toy Poodles, etc for earth dogs. 
There are good reasons for staying wth the race bred Huskies. They do it better and longer then any other dogs.


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## David Krider (Mar 19, 2011)

If we are still talking about Mals cross breeding in sled dogs, we should clarify if it is hobby, or competition sled dog racing. If you are not trying to be the best in your field, than you can cross for any reason you want.
If it is for competition, than the only goal is better performance. The next step, is it for a distance competition or a sprint, 3 to 30 miles. The distance dogs like the Iditarod Race, are the ones most people are familiar with. These are dogs that maintain a fast trot or slow lope, for hours at a time over days at a time. 

The sprint dogs have to maintain about 20 mph average speed, if you expect to win, thats a 3 minute mile, over the entire course of up to 30 miles. When you are at the 20 mile or longer point that is very difficult for any animal of any kind.

You can only go as fast as your slowest dog, therefore every dog in the team must be able to perform.

More sprint dogs have made good distance dogs, than distance dogs have made good sprint dogs.

Sled dogs have been crossed with about every type of dog you can find including wolf, coyote, and dingo. Some bring improvement, most do not.

When we talk about drive in a racing sled dog we are talking about a dog that wants to run like he is chasing a rabbit the whole race. We can try to improve structure and ability, but if we loose any of that drive, we loose.
A dog heavy on attitude and drive will beat a dog long on confirmation.

Another factor is the best dog in your team at an average 18 mph might be the worst at 20 mph. The superstar at 6 miles could be the dropout at 10 miles. 

The average dog in a competitive open class speed racing sled dog team will probably be between 35 and 55 lbs. Most dogs, some exceptions, larger than this can't hold up to the prolonged fast pace.

Some of these dogs perform like a machine, and some of these dogs are your best friend and companion, like people they are not all the same.

After training and racing sled dog teams for 20 years, we now have Mals, Dutchies, and GSD's and I feel there is as much difference within the breeds as among the different breeds.
If I am looking for top performance I don't believe crossing racing sled dogs into these dogs will be any more beneficial than crossing these dogs into racing sled dogs.

Thanks for the post. I do appreciate taking this trip down memory lane.


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## Meg O'Donovan (Aug 20, 2012)

Chelsey Protulipac said:


> There are different lineages of sled dogs bred for different competition types. Long distance, mid distance, and sprinting. Lines bred to withstand Arctic temperatures versus the seasonal circuits in Northern US and South-Central Canada (lots of smooth coated sled dogs around here). Within each of these there are the teams selected for the top race circuits versus more recreational (ease of handling). Lots of variables in team selection and breeding.
> 
> Here is her team a few months ago.. She is a member on here and these dogs cross train in pretty much everything.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9PZoVrbt1s


Thanks for putting that up. I enjoyed watching it. They looked to be having a great time.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Jami Craig said:


> By that logic wouldn't all those doodle crosses be a GREAT thing? Or the pit bull crossed oops litters? They always seem to be HUGE. Friend of mine pulled a little crippled shepherdy thing for rescue, super underweight, very sick, two weeks later popped out 13 pit crosses, all made it....
> 
> I don't mean to be snarky but is there anything that supports that theory? I know birthrate is lower in TRUE hybrids (ligers, mules, etc) and the fact the offspring tend to be sterile does sort of seem like nature's way of saying this isn't a good idea....but dogs are all the same species?
> 
> ...


I would never support this ever, not to be a Malinois snob but there is enough bullshit cross breeds (consider Cockapoos etc bullshit breeds) out there and oops litters to be purposely breeding oops litters for a specific sport i.e. mushing. Just because someone says it is a breed doesn't mean it is a breed. It isn't as easy as getting two dogs together to have sex just because someone thinks it is interesting. 

There is a reason why working line Malinois/Dutch/GSDs are bred and they are meant to be mushing dogs. Sure they can do it but Malamutes/Sibes etc generally cannot do what the perfect storm 'Malinois/Dutch/GSDs' of working breeds do. 

Tell me why would you want to breed a perfectly good Malinois to a Husky and take away that 100's of years of drive for explosive detection, SAR search etc. To me it unethical and horribly wrong, I'd euthanize every last one of those pups.


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## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

David Krider said:


> If we are still talking about Mals cross breeding in sled dogs, we should clarify if it is hobby, or competition sled dog racing. If you are not trying to be the best in your field, than you can cross for any reason you want.
> If it is for competition, than the only goal is better performance. The next step, is it for a distance competition or a sprint, 3 to 30 miles. The distance dogs like the Iditarod Race, are the ones most people are familiar with. These are dogs that maintain a fast trot or slow lope, for hours at a time over days at a time.
> 
> The sprint dogs have to maintain about 20 mph average speed, if you expect to win, thats a 3 minute mile, over the entire course of up to 30 miles. When you are at the 20 mile or longer point that is very difficult for any animal of any kind.
> ...


in a nutshell!


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

Lynn Cheffins said:


> exactly


I third that notion! Lol


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

catherine hardigan said:


> Because mals don't bring anything to the table that isn't already there.


I meant that notion.


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## David Winners (Apr 4, 2012)

Geoff Empey said:


> I would never support this ever, not to be a Malinois snob but there is enough bullshit cross breeds (consider Cockapoos etc bullshit breeds) out there and oops litters to be purposely breeding oops litters for a specific sport i.e. mushing. Just because someone says it is a breed doesn't mean it is a breed. It isn't as easy as getting two dogs together to have sex just because someone thinks it is interesting.
> 
> There is a reason why working line Malinois/Dutch/GSDs are bred and they are meant to be mushing dogs. Sure they can do it but Malamutes/Sibes etc generally cannot do what the perfect storm 'Malinois/Dutch/GSDs' of working breeds do.
> 
> Tell me why would you want to breed a perfectly good Malinois to a Husky and take away that 100's of years of drive for explosive detection, SAR search etc. To me it unethical and horribly wrong, I'd euthanize every last one of those pups.


Those same Malinois, Dutch, and GSDs are themselves products of cross breeding. If a Malinois has characteristics that can help build a better musher when combined with an existing breed, how would crossing those breeds be any different than the process that created the Malinois? 

Do you see it as wasting Malinois sperm or something? It's not like the working world will be short of Malinois if they are used to selectively breed a new musher. The drive won't be taken away. The Malinois breed won't be weakened. Your perfect storm was created by doing exactly what is proposed.

I just fail to understand your extremely negative response. 

David Winners


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Zakia Days said:


> I third that notion! Lol


Actually I think that would be "fourth that notion"?:
:lol:



catherine hardigan said:


> Because mals don't bring anything to the table that isn't already there.





Lynn Cheffins said:


> exactly





susan tuck said:


> I agree with Catherine and Lynn. I'm thinking "if it ain't broke..."


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

David Winners said:


> Those same Malinois, Dutch, and GSDs are themselves products of cross breeding. If a Malinois has characteristics that can help build a better musher when combined with an existing breed, how would crossing those breeds be any different than the process that created the Malinois?
> 
> Do you see it as wasting Malinois sperm or something? It's not like the working world will be short of Malinois if they are used to selectively breed a new musher. The drive won't be taken away. The Malinois breed won't be weakened. Your perfect storm was created by doing exactly what is proposed.
> 
> ...


Yes all breeds were cross breeds at one time. SO WHAT!!! What does your response have to do about my comments about not screwing with the genetics of a breed(s) that helps our military/police/sar people. You would hope you'd know better being in the military your self. I'm sure you appreciate that your next mwd comes from the best genetics that bring out the best characteristics that you need to do your job, just saying. 

So it's ok to just screw with only part of the working dog population? Isn't that how it started for the Dobermanns that served in the pacific with the Marines in WW2 and 60+ years of selective breeding has created the superlative most wonderful American Showline Shitter Shepherd. Breed tinkerers ruined those 2 breeds, next up is the Malinois due to it's popularity I think. The popularity of Malinios will be their downfall in the end sad to say. I just hope I never see it in my lifetime. (btw I am not being negative .. passionate yes, big difference)

This is why as a breeder I have a hard time to put my dogs in a non working or non bite sport home. I know what I breed for and it isn't sledding. It's like breeding a Malinois Strain for doing lure coursing they can do it .. but seriously WHY? Get a whippet for that sport or a get a Alaskan Husky or working Siberian if you want to compete in sledding, it isn't that complicated. If you want to sled with Malinois knock yourself out, but they are so so so much more than being pigeon holed as a sled dog. 

Actually since you brought it up doing a breeding MalxHuskies is a waste of Malinois Sperm. I have to agree with you, you might as well have bred the Malinois to a goat IMO. :twisted: LOL. 

In all seriousness really what does doing a MalinoisxHusky breeding bring to the table? Would you get anything better than what is out there? What would it bring to the table to improve anything on either breed? Answer that please.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Geoff Empey said:


> Yes all breeds were cross breeds at one time. SO WHAT!!! What does your response have to do about my comments about not screwing with the genetics of a breed(s) that helps our military/police/sar people. You would hope you'd know better being in the military your self. I'm sure you appreciate that your next mwd comes from the best genetics that bring out the best characteristics that you need to do your job, just saying.
> 
> So it's ok to just screw with only part of the working dog population? Isn't that how it started for the Dobermanns that served in the pacific with the Marines in WW2 and 60+ years of selective breeding has created the superlative most wonderful American Showline Shitter Shepherd. Breed tinkerers ruined those 2 breeds, next up is the Malinois due to it's popularity I think. The popularity of Malinios will be their downfall in the end sad to say. I just hope I never see it in my lifetime. (btw I am not being negative .. passionate yes, big difference)
> 
> ...


I get your viewpoint, but I cant see how crossing the Mal with something for mushing purposes, would be "screwing with the genetics of a breed(s) that helps our military/police/sar people." Its not like those products are going to be used for those functions, and probably not likely that they would be bred back into the actual Malinois genetic base to any real degree to effect it.

I see it in reality not affecting the Mals for Military/Police/SAR at all, unless some Artic SAR people want to try out the crosses.

The Doeberman people felt the same way when my buddy was crossing Dobes with APBT...he never tried to breed back into Doberman books though.


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## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

I can see Geoff's point - in any breeding of two VERY diverse types of dogs you are going to get a lot of variation - so the person who tries this experimental breeding might get a selection of dogs many of which might not conform to the wanted "end product"- you might get a real superstar with the all the drives of both intact but you also might get some (or all..) that get some or all the negatives of both types. Nature does not let you order off a menu what traits you want served up.

I have a one big example of "just don't go there" in my own yard - a whoops breeding between one my dogs and the neighbours GSD. Big, handsome, healthy, lots of drive, strong as an ox, devoted as heck but very sharp around anything but family and therefore kinda useless. Too big to race and too sharp to subject other mushers and the general public to him. Keeps bad people out of my yard and truck - also keeps good people out of my yard and truck and we always have to be careful about where we park "Smiley". He's a very attractive junkyard dog but nothing you would want a whole yard of. (Geoff has met him and can vouch that he is an @sshole :wink
Experimental breeding programs require a lot of culling to get to an end result that might not be all that great.

Breedings with dogs of similar type is not going to get the diversity of traits - Mals, DS, GSD are being selected and bred for the same characteristics so crossbreeding these dogs would make more sense.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Jami Craig said:


> ...but I can't seem to find anyone who's done it. Which is odd because from what I understand outcrossing to different breeds is common and perfectly acceptable in the alaskan husky and I've found reports of outcrosses to almost every other breed out there. *I've found articles where they've crossed in dobermans which I honestly don't understand at all,* german shepherds (that isn't something that structurally compliments an alaskan husky, I'm picturing trainwreck puppies?). Of course there's the hound crosses but that's for a completely different reason and those seem quite successful.


You don't?
Maybe it's cos a team of Dobes came first in the russian championships......

Check this

http://usadobermann.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general1&action=display&thread=173


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## Jami Craig (Jul 5, 2010)

Matt Vandart said:


> You don't?
> Maybe it's cos a team of Dobes came first in the russian championships......
> 
> Check this
> ...


I did find that....but dobermans as an outcross didn't make sense to me, they don't really compliment the breed, I'm not sure what desirable traits they added, and I'd imagine they could possibly take away a lot especially in health?

The "argument" for the mal that was made was that they don't add or take away too much extra but give more brains and trainability?


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Jami Craig said:


> I did find that....but dobermans as an outcross didn't make sense to me, they don't really compliment the breed, I'm not sure what desirable traits they added, and I'd imagine they could possibly take away a lot especially in health?


Trainability?
Speed?
DCM?
Stupidity?
Aerodynamics?
something to talk about in the pub?

I dunno I was just linking it.

Could be just because of this team ^^^ no other reason.
I don't know what is wrong with just using 'huskies' people have been using them for thousands of years I suspect.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Maybe a cross doesn't make sense to you guys because you are not mushers or know much about sled dogs. Alaskan Huskies are not a breed, it's a type. And that type consist of spitz type breeds and dogs with other breeds mixed in to suit different purposes. They have mixed in everything from pointers and hounds to GSDs and Malinois. So how can you ruin a "breed" when mixing is a huge part of that "breed"? And claiming that mixing Malinois into the Husky gene pool can somehow harm the Malinois defies all logic.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> what would be the benefits of this cross again for serious mushers? and who can say whether or not it would compromise the "drive" of mushing breeds by crossing in Malinois, or that it would necessarily "maintain the work ethic" of the type that good sled dogs display?
> 
> How many Mali breeders have been concentrating on breeding dogs for pulling heavy loads over long distances in extreme artic conditions, and for how long have they been doing so?
> 
> ...


I agree, things to think about - good post


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

It would be like trying to get 16 strong WDF members to work together to a common goal maybe?


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## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

Gillian Schuler said:


> It would be like trying to get 16 strong WDF members to work together to a common goal maybe?


lol !
that might be a training challenge right there....


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> It would be like trying to get 16 strong WDF members to work together to a common goal maybe?


16 dog teams are pretty rare even with huskies. And I have only seen those large teams on long multi day endurance races. Most teams do sprint races and those teams are 2 to 8 dogs, I think. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9PZoVrbt1s&feature=c4-overview&list=UUUiB-Bs84qnpHHM2JTYRFUg


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## David Krider (Mar 19, 2011)

Hello Chris, the open or unlimited class of sled dog sprint racing is just that, any number of dogs. The usual number is 12 to 16. But in big three day races like Anchorage and Fairbanks you will find up to 18 to 24 dogs.
The large number is partially because you can drop dogs each day, but not substitute or add any new dogs the following heats. 
If you start with 12 the first day and are down to 8 the last day you are underpowered. If you start with 18 and are down to 14 the last day, you are still very competitive in dog power. Dogs get hurt and sick like people and sometimes you win by the dogs you left behind rather than the dogs you kept in the team.
The limited classes are just that, limited to a specific number, 3.6.8 ect.
Most people fall in the limited class size because of the large commitment to race in the unlimited class. At least that is how I remember it.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

David Krider said:


> Hello Chris, the open or unlimited class of sled dog sprint racing is just that, any number of dogs. The usual number is 12 to 16. But in big three day races like Anchorage and Fairbanks you will find up to 18 to 24 dogs.
> The large number is partially because you can drop dogs each day, but not substitute or add any new dogs the following heats.
> If you start with 12 the first day and are down to 8 the last day you are underpowered. If you start with 18 and are down to 14 the last day, you are still very competitive in dog power. Dogs get hurt and sick like people and sometimes you win by the dogs you left behind rather than the dogs you kept in the team.
> The limited classes are just that, limited to a specific number, 3.6.8 ect.
> Most people fall in the limited class size because of the large commitment to race in the unlimited class. At least that is how I remember it.


That sounds about right to me too.


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## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

Also people that are training for limited class races or mids will train larger teams with ATV or rig in fall training.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I'm curious, given another thread, how breeding works in sled dog racing. Is it [phenotype] good dog to good dog or are they keeping tabs on how dogs produce in terms of the traits they desire?

T


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> Maybe a cross doesn't make sense to you guys because you are not mushers or know much about sled dogs. Alaskan Huskies are not a breed, it's a type. And that type consist of spitz type breeds and dogs with other breeds mixed in to suit different purposes. They have mixed in everything from pointers and hounds to GSDs and Malinois. So how can you ruin a "breed" when mixing is a huge part of that "breed"? And claiming that mixing Malinois into the Husky gene pool can somehow harm the Malinois defies all logic.



The Saluki has been a not uncommon cross in the past. They are the endurance dogs of the sight hound world. Endurance and speed seem to me a good help/addition to a racing dog. 
If your bringing another 'breed" into the Husky, Mal or otherwise, it can't hurt the other "breed" simply because the ones that don't work out aren't going to be much of anything but a mutt. Future pet or culled, the offspring not used for the racing sure aren't going to be brought back into that "other breed". 
As you say, it's an Alaskan Husky not the Sib Husky. It's a bred to race type of dog.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

all domestic dogs are mutts by definition and i do think you need to look at the long haul as much as the short haul
...the only thing that might be different in the modern age is people don't weed out and cull the non achievers like they did in the past

i see little differences between the words "types" and "breeds"
...if the "alaskan husky" is one of the healthiest longest living mutts that excel at their jobs, maybe more should follow that breeding philosophy and it shouldn't matter if it was a type or a breed

"breeds" seem to get clarified and purified only when stud books, registries and pedigrees are used for breeding control

for me, i'd rather own a strong healthy "mal type" dog than a pure bred mal any day
...that would go for any type dog; not just mals 

we have done some crazy things to develop dog types; some good and some have been downright frankensteinish imo
...beauty form and function will always be in the eyes of the beholder


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

rick smith said:


> all domestic dogs are mutts by definition and i do think you need to look at the long haul as much as the short haul
> ...the only thing that might be different in the modern age is people don't weed out and cull the non achievers like they did in the past
> 
> i see little differences between the words "types" and "breeds"
> ...


I think the KNPV people would agree with you. In the long haul, I don't know that absolute breed "purity" is really beneficial. I wonder if there has been an experiment of good dog to good dog without linebreeding and without compromise and the results of producing consistency of type.

T


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I think the KNPV people would agree with you. In the long haul, I don't know that absolute breed "purity" is really beneficial. I wonder if there has been an experiment of good dog to good dog without linebreeding and without compromise and the results of producing consistency of type.
> 
> T


sure there has big and small scale, depending on what you call "consitent type". To some people consistant type is almost carbon copies....


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> I get your viewpoint, but I cant see how crossing the Mal with something for mushing purposes, would be "screwing with the genetics of a breed(s) that helps our military/police/sar people." Its not like those products are going to be used for those functions, and probably not likely that they would be bred back into the actual Malinois genetic base to any real degree to effect it.
> 
> I see it in reality not affecting the Mals for Military/Police/SAR at all, unless some Artic SAR people want to try out the crosses.
> 
> The Doeberman people felt the same way when my buddy was crossing Dobes with APBT...he never tried to breed back into Doberman books though.


I get what you are saying Joby and agree with your statement for the most part in theory. 

But for me where does it end? That's the danger now we have dobermanns that are afraid of their shadows and show GSDs bred that can barely find the food in their dishes. Yet they are called Dobes or GSDs. I just don't want the Malinois to go there. The Gronendeal, Terverun, and Lakenois are already headed there. Ruined by breed tinkerers, who think that breeding for earset, colour or less intense dogs is a good thing for working dogs. It's bullshit IMO. 

So really where does it end? I'd prefer that it never started it is just a horrible horrible idea IMO.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Geoff Empey said:


> I get what you are saying Joby and agree with your statement for the most part in theory.
> 
> But for me where does it end? That's the danger now we have dobermanns that are afraid of their shadows and show GSDs bred that can barely find the food in their dishes. Yet they are called Dobes or GSDs. I just don't want the Malinois to go there. The Gronendeal, Terverun, and Lakenois are already headed there. Ruined by breed tinkerers, who think that breeding for earset, colour or less intense dogs is a good thing for working dogs. It's bullshit IMO.
> 
> So really where does it end? I'd prefer that it never started it is just a horrible horrible idea IMO.


my buddies crossbred dobie pits are better on average than the pure dobes for sure in my opinion, even if the Doberman people think that they are an abomination.

I dont think the backslide of working breeds as populations can really be attributed much to crossing of breeds, I think it is as you said, breeding for earset, color, less intense dogs, and other things that have nothing to do with workability in a positive way. Breeding show or looks, and NOT testing or working breeding stock, and just breeding, not so much crossing of breeds, which is done on a small scale. But again, I understand your feelings about it.


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## David Krider (Mar 19, 2011)

Some here will certainly disagree, but I consider one of the strengths of the Alaskan Husky, is that it is not a registered breed. This translates into performance as well as health. 

When I was involved the standard practice was to line breed, in breed, cross breed, and outcross. Whatever it took to get better performance.
What would often happen was a certain strain would "nick" compliment another strain and that would set a new direction.

The wildcard in breeding of any type is the Super Dog does not usually reproduce him or her self.

A common result would be to breed the best dog in your team to the best candidates. That dog may not produce what you wanted, but maybe his brother who was just a good dog, or he would not be in your team, would get loose and breed another bitch and that litter would produce the high percentage top dogs. The best animal doesn't always produce the best animals, and sometimes improvement is made by accident. The accidents are usually from a solid genetic base for performance.

If you are only breeding for performance than you don't have as many other factors to side track you.

When you find that super stud or bitch then you capitalize on it.
This is about genetics, but don't overlook training ability. The team or dog that wins for one trainer may be consistently out of the money for another.

This may be another reason why some strains are higher percentage than others.


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## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

David Krider said:


> Some here will certainly disagree, but I consider one of the strengths of the Alaskan Husky, is that it is not a registered breed. This translates into performance as well as health.
> 
> When I was involved the standard practice was to line breed, in breed, cross breed, and outcross. Whatever it took to get better performance.
> What would often happen was a certain strain would "nick" compliment another strain and that would set a new direction.
> ...


Even in breeding purebreds for performance the linebreed, inbreed and outcross is used though within the limitations of the gene pool where with the Alaskans the possibilities are pretty unlimited. I think the slippery slope for the downfall of most purebreds is breeding purely for show. In conformation showing "breed type" is only how you look. In performance/working breeding "breed type" is how you perform.
The following dog would be considered "non typey" by show types but I don't care  
Here is the pedigree of the litter http://www.shaytaanhuskies.com/Nyx.html
Purebred teams are scarce and getting scarcer all the time but still a few holdouts an dinosaurs


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Good looking dog. It's funny how when dogs are bred for work they tend to look the same.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Geoff Empey said:


> I get what you are saying Joby and agree with your statement for the most part in theory.
> 
> But for me where does it end? That's the danger now we have dobermanns that are afraid of their shadows and show GSDs bred that can barely find the food in their dishes. Yet they are called Dobes or GSDs. I just don't want the Malinois to go there. The Gronendeal, Terverun, and Lakenois are already headed there. Ruined by breed tinkerers, who think that breeding for earset, colour or less intense dogs is a good thing for working dogs. It's bullshit IMO.
> 
> So really where does it end? I'd prefer that it never started it is just a horrible horrible idea IMO.


I understand where you are coming from and the love/passion for maintaining your breed and the characteristics that set it apart from others. Still, I wonder if something like the 7/8s rule used here in there in a breeding scheme wouldn't be beneficial.

T


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