# Nyx Skocicka samota



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Nyx is about a year and a half now, as toy possessive as she's always been. Usually when I DO get a hold of the object she's carrying, it easily turns into a game of tug. She'll never just GIVE it to me. I've worked a lot with two toys to help perpetuate the games we play. She has no problem coming back to me, and will do some focus heeling in order to earn the second toy.

In this video, I tried to do something different, having her get up on a large rock as a platform that would lessen her ability to turn a retrieve into a game of tug. It seemed to provide a bit of distraction, and she couldn't drop back and pull as easily, with no way to center her gravity.

Also at the end of this clip, I introduce her to a non-regulation size A-frame for the very first time. Seems she automatically understood what that was all about. I think she must have watched Hutch go over it last fall summer or something.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmJw2mYvmm0


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Daryl Ehret said:


> Nyx is about a year and a half now, as toy possessive as she's always been. Usually *when I DO get a hold of the object she's carrying, it easily turns into a game of tug. She'll never just GIVE it to me.* I've worked a lot with two toys to help perpetuate the games we play. She has no problem coming back to me, and will do some focus heeling in order to earn the second toy.
> 
> In this video, I tried to do something different, having her get up on a large rock as a platform that would lessen her ability to turn a retrieve into a game of tug. It seemed to provide a bit of distraction, and she couldn't drop back and pull as easily, with no way to center her gravity.
> 
> ...


Nice dog...thanks for sharing...

NEVER? looks like she pretty much gave it to you when you were trying to get her her on the A frame to me. From the video does not look to be all that possessive to me, sure more than a dog that just spits it in your hand, but in the big scope, not really.

The part on the rock, I have to say if I was a dog I wouldnt give the toy to you either, if I wanted to keep it, seems like the does not really have any command for release, or does she? or a real command to "give" it to you..or does she...if that is how you attempt to get her to give you stuff, I can see why she doesn't...

From what I saw, there was alot of pandering from you to the dog to *keep* the item. some slaps here and there, reaches in with no real intent to take the toy, and no realistic intent to have her give it to you..alot of asking and nagging.

I heard a lot of "conversation" with the dog that was all over the map in my book, if the goal was to get the dog to give you the toy. 

Mixed in the middle of the conversation were lots of words and actions..

face me
hey right here
here
fooey
right here
wait (when dog is holding it)
no,no,no,
let go,
right here,
let it go
wait
right here
YO!
a million let it goes
"yer gonna fall back"
sit
(hit the dog)
down
"see what happens"
bring it here
give it here
here
here
right here
down
here
wait
no, no, no. 

6 years of that would drive me batshit if I was a dog...really not trying to sound like a jerk, but that video was confusing to me, let alone the dog, if you were trying to get her to give you that toy.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

It's a lot different on the ground. She's really determined to keep it. Sometimes I use a forceful voice to get her to come within reach, but I don't want to mark it with an official command, until she's actually doing what I want properly. I realized yesterday, how providing additional distraction helps dissuade her from keeping the toy as much, and thought the additional exercises might be a good opportunity to start teaching the "out". If I seem nagging and less serious in my approach, I think it helps a bit, because if she knows my intention is to get the toy, she becomes more resistant. I get lots of willing behavior from her in all manner of things... except giving up that toy.

Does that give a better perspective, to offer some suggestions? I've just never had a dog before that's so unwilling in this aspect.


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Nice dog... Good luck with her.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Go back to using 2 toys, when she brings one back have her platz, give her out command (without you standing over her or touching the toy at all, in fact you stay about 3 feet away from her). When she outs, you immediately give her release command (free, OK, whatever you normally use) then toss the other toy for her. This reinforces the out command, A lot of times when you ask the dog to out, you make the mistake of having some tension on the rope of the toy, which causes conflict, especially in a young dog, because a dog's natural reaction is to grip harder and pull against you. You can really see this too in how when she does out, she is unsure and nips/lightly regrips the toy again and again. In her mind you are fighting her for the toy, which causes her to automatically fight back, so you have created this conflict. It's not about an overly possessive dog.

Once it becomes clear to the dog, you can start asking her to out, still not standing over her or touchng the toy, pick up the toy, give her a release command and throw the toy. Eventually you can progress to having your hand on the rope again, when you give her the out command, but NEVER have tension on the toy and ask the dog to out at the same time. 

Another thing: You are waiting too long before you give her your release command and throwing the toy. All that "waiting" makes the reward for waiting not for outing. You need to be quicker and more concise: out - free - throw the toy bam bam bam

I also agree with Joby, way too much chatter.


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

The main thing that struck me about the video - not a single marker, word or sound. Yes you praise her on the a-frame (after the fact) but you never tell her exactly when she is doing what you want, lots of command words and "no". And if this is a training session, I am not sure what exactly you are working on. Probably the dog has no idea either.

I don't see a real posessive dog, but she sems to be doing what you taught her, holding on and tugging. She is watching you and experimenting. You could train her to shove it in your hands and spit it out if that is what you want?


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

One of her personal favorite games is to steal the toy from other dogs, and play keepaway. What you saw in the video is the closest thing to giving me the toy I've ever been able to accomplish, I was just unprepared to mark it.

I didn't use two toys in the video, but when using two toys, she will spit out the one toy just prior to my releasing her to run for the second toy, but it's still not the same as GIVING it to me. If I get down within reach so that she COULD give it to me, she immediately drops the one and just tries to steal away the other one that I'm holding. Not the same as relinquishing the toy TO me. But yes, she would platz and "out" while waiting for release to get the other toy.

Before now, I've never had opportunity in this sequence to actually give the "out" command with my hand on the toy, except the couple times she caught me off guard and freely gave it to me while on the rock and while on the A frame. She will shove into me with the toy, but not to relinquish, instead to initiate another round of struggle, and "win".

I do agree, that I've encouraged her possessiveness and fight for the toy, but that behavior was naturally prominent from the get go, and not because I made her that way. I've tried to hold slackly the toy to not give to much resistance in the video some, and her grip falters a bit, leading to some chewiness and regripping. But the added distraction of course obstacles seems to be helping, so that she doesn't "seem" as possessive as she normally is.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Her grip falters because you aren't holding tension on the toy???? NO, she is outing like you are telling her to do! If you tell the dog to out but keep tension on the line you are not teaching her anything, you are just confusing her. The problem I see isn't your hand on the toy it's the tension you put on the rope of the toy. It's a very common mistake, trying to pull the toy or have tension on the rope and trying to get the dog to out at the same time. I do not see an overly possessive dog in the video, just a conflicted and confused dog. BUT I don't know you or your dog or what came before this video, so I very well could be wrong. That's the problem with video clips, we can only judge what we see in a couple minutes of video, so we make snap judgements. Another thing, once the dog does out, don't let the toy swing around, keep it still until you throw it, at least in the beginning.


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## Victoria Custis (Apr 5, 2011)

Gorgeous! How do you think she'd do in dock-diving??


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I think I might have the problem resolved. she's releasing the toy as if it never were a problem before. I thought I'd go out and see if food would help, but she was outing before I even had a chance to use the food.

I bet she would make a good dock diver. Right now I'm uploading a video on youtube, just some video I took in january of her on the bite pillow.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Daryl Ehret said:


> I've just never had a dog before that's so unwilling in this aspect.


I don't see an unwilling dog. I see a dog who has become willful because your lack of clarity/consistency. Daryl, she's a beautiful dog but you need to quiet your mind when you work with her and keep the talk to something more basic and consistent for her sake. I honestly wasn't sure if this video was a demonstration, teaching session, or exactly what you sought to accomplish in those few minutes.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Pillow fiiiiiiiiiiiiiight !!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4lhNoeFgV8


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

_"I see a dog who has become willful because your lack of clarity/consistency."_

That sounds silly.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Dude are you serious?

I read your posts here all the time and for the most part you are pretty intelligent. That video is ridiculous, if you were trying to get the dog to give you the toy..it almost seems like you tried to make a video of how possessive the dog was, by trying NOT to have her give you the toy...

Like I said CONFUSING..Nicole's statement is 100% correct, not silly.

6 years of it, and in one day, say since you posted the video, now the dog is giving it to you...

You said it was worse on the ground, it was better from what I saw in the video, once you tried to take it, she gave it right up, straight away..

you know your dog, I could be way off base, but the video is not jiving with what you are trying to convey...

My dog is possessive, she WILL give me stuff.
I can shoot a video of how she won't give me stuff (on purpose) and do a half ass job of making it look like she wont give me stuff, too...

I am sure you can train a dog, you have a bunch of nice gsd's, that is why I was flabbergasted by the video...

again not trying to sound like a jerk, but this is a working/training dog board...and I am sure that everyone here that "trained" really possessive dogs to give up their toys, is thinkng WTF??? but just didn't say anything..

So was the purpose to show how possessive the dog was? or what was it?


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

_"Like I said CONFUSING..Nicole's statement is 100% correct, not silly."_

It IS silly. It would make more sense to say that she's a good dog in spite of bad handling, not _because of_ bad handling.


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

looks like you had a few too many drinky - poos in that second video , lol


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Yeah, if my reflexes had been on par, I might not have sustained that injury toward the end. One fang, square center through the thumbnail, and took months to grow away. She's a real riot, lots of fun to play with.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I got some room for her right here. No need to worry about training the out or whatever. LOL


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## Victoria Custis (Apr 5, 2011)

It looks like this is Daryl having the time and inclination to deal with a minor nagging issue the "nice" way. Because...why not?

I'm guessing there's a not a lot going on in Montana, so I'm not sure what he's supposed to be proving to anyone. It looks like she knows what's expected of her enough that a simple e-collar application would clean that up immediately. I would bet he also knows that. 

It's good to experiment. You rest of you must be used to taking crisp orders from "training directors". lol


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmJw2mYvmm0[/QUOTE]

This is a good video of a dog training its owner to play tug. The dog should make a video collection of how to train your owner. Looks like your having a good time :razz:


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Thanks. It's true I like to keep it pleasant when possible. The only time I ever used a prong collar on my better trained dog Hutch, was also for the out, when he was not "promt enough" and a bit chewey. In one session with two or three corrections, that fixed him for a while. He still gets that way, if he hasn't had a good bite to relieve the tension.

I think it could be a non-issue if the dog learns how to deal with that tension differently, internally. So, just as a prong or an ecollar correction (or another toy) interrupts their internal process and focus their attention elsewhere, so my idea was, that elevation and balancing while navigating obstacles could also redirect their attention. Kind of similar to how my TD would instruct the heel or the down to be taught in a circular guiding motion, while the dog is also, in motion.

Basically, having more to concentrate on, divides their attention, lessens their determination to oppose. But anyway, completely as you said, an experiment.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

It's called oppositional reflex Daryl, all dogs do it, yours is no different. Take your hand off the toy, stop pulling on the rope when you want her to out, stop creating so much conflict with you, stop all the stupid extraneous chatter, reinforce it a few times, and your dog won't have an issue with outing, very simple, it's not brain surgery. It's clear from the various videos, you've just developed some bad habits that are very common, this is your issue not your bitch's issue.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

As if I've never heard of oppositional reflex! Should I teach the out without touching the toy at all? I had her on the rock so I _could hold_ the rope with less tension, because her first reaction upon touching it is to drop her hips and pull back. Both of our habit, because I _never_ tried to teach her to out. Teaching it after several months of nothing but tugging is not as simple as you might think.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

It's exactly that simple, you just don't know how.


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## Victoria Custis (Apr 5, 2011)

It looks like Daryl is less concerned with a achieving a goal and more concerned with wringing out every drop of voluntary compliance he can for the purposes of understanding a bigger picture. 

If I'm reading him right, there's no specific goal here other than exploring those things which other people may not have time for...because they're getting ready for "nationals". :lol:

If not, then I stand corrected, abd my advice would be this: go get an e-collar and be done with it.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Victoria Custis said:


> It looks like Daryl is less concerned with a achieving a goal and more concerned with wringing out every drop of voluntary compliance he can for the purposes of understanding a bigger picture.
> 
> If I'm reading him right, there's no specific goal here other than exploring those things which other people may not have time for...because they're getting ready for "nationals". :lol:
> 
> If not, then I stand corrected, abd my advice would be this: go get an e-collar and be done with it.


After seeing the training methods used thus far, you recommend an E collar? Really? Do they use ecollars much in agility and dock diving, for whippets and chessies?

can you explain exactly how you would train through this issue with this dog, with an E collar?


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## Victoria Custis (Apr 5, 2011)

No, I don't reccomend an e-collar for this. It would be quick, yes, but it sounds like his point is to examine the outing process. If he wanted to achieve that for it's own sake, it could be done in a 5 minutes. In fact, I like what he's doing. More people should do it. Not this specifically, but playing with concepts.

I see it in dock diving and agility too. People want to achieve specific objectives more than they want to understand concepts.

Does this dog have a good idea of what he wants? I would say so. The outing is sticky and reluctant, like you're pulling a rubber band off duct tape. Some electric followed by quick rewards would clean that up quick. But...it's not like Daryl is going anywhere and doing anything. Why not examine from all the angles, even if they seem pointless to all you experts.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I recommend the Micheal Ellis video tape titled "the power of playing tug with your dog", should solve all the problems...


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## Victoria Custis (Apr 5, 2011)

I'm familiar with this style of reluctant outing, and I'm also familiar with that video. I've seen the problem in some friends German Shepherds, but not Malinois as much. Under familiar and ideal conditions you get something resembling rapide fire motivational outing, but sometimes it's like building a house of cards. It's primed to collapse. They need just a little extra something to provide complete clarity to cover all occasions. And I wouldn't call it possessiveness exactly, either. It seems more related to all this _pulling (and yes, oppositional reflex junk)_ which GSDs are notorious for. Some worse than others.

Not that it shouldn't be attempted in pristine Michael Ellis fashion. I'm just saying.

Daryl is doing a good thing here...conceptually.


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

This doesn't look like a possessive dog to me, but then again I'm working with a stubborn, possessive bulldog... so thats my viewpoint. Seems mostly handler induced to me... back up, simplify, clarity, consistency.

Less words, your words me nothing at this point imo. There is no clarity in terms, too much talkie talkie. On the tug thing, with my dog things i tried... stabilizing the toy on a body part or ground for no self reward, asking for position commands first to refocus the brain on work and compliance not fun play time, no hands on it at all standing up and a step back to not be a threat of taking it upon release then I gave a position command and then retrieved toy, and of course compulsive tactics.... the backing off and commanding position worked best for my dog.... everything else backfired. Also clarity in your words... only a set few is needed... command, no, yes, good, reward, correction... whatever... timed to clearly communicate your wants to the dog.

Jmo,
T


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

tracey delin said:


> This doesn't look like a possessive dog to me, but then again I'm working with a stubborn, possessive bulldog... so thats my viewpoint. Seems mostly handler induced to me... back up, simplify, clarity, consistency.
> 
> Less words, your words me nothing at this point imo. There is no clarity in terms, too much talkie talkie. On the tug thing, with my dog things i tried... stabilizing the toy on a body part or ground for no self reward, asking for position commands first to refocus the brain on work and compliance not fun play time, no hands on it at all standing up and a step back to not be a threat of taking it upon release then I gave a position command and then retrieved toy, and of course compulsive tactics.... the backing off and commanding position worked best for my dog.... everything else backfired. Also clarity in your words... only a set few is needed... command, no, yes, good, reward, correction... whatever... timed to clearly communicate your wants to the dog.
> 
> ...


You been having much success then lately Tracey...obviously ??


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Lol yes on the outing, i have.... in a way he trained me..... as I gave up on traditional methods, he won there.... so we comprised and now I agree to not touch it, or force it upon asking as long as he agrees to come to heel upon me asking after he drops from a distance.... then i go get it lol.... really pretty ridiculous but it works for us.... lol.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

tracey delin said:


> Lol yes on the outing, i have.... in a way he trained me..... as I gave up on traditional methods, he won there.... so we comprised and now I agree to not touch it, or force it upon asking as long as he agrees to come to heel upon me asking after he drops from a distance.... then i go get it lol.... really pretty ridiculous but it works for us.... lol.


 
Keep those tips coming this way lol :grin:. I currently am negotiating a back command once I get the out, him letting go is one thing, me possessing it is another.


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

That's why this is working for us... I'm a few feet away ask for an out he does it. I stand still, call to heel...this command is strong... if he goes to regrab he gets the ecollar before he gets it and a verbal no.... took some time to wean that, but now its a pretty smooth process.. the distance from me clears the possessive brain, the correction while not possessing stops the repossessing.... once he is in position he must oblige, he must be focused on me, we are out of fun time and back to work brain is clear, then I command sit and go get it... reward at that point but not always with another bite, sometimes food or just praise. I've gotta say, long haul but so much easier lol...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Daryl Ehret said:


> It's a lot different on the ground. She's really determined to keep it. Sometimes I use a forceful voice to get her to come within reach, but I don't want to mark it with an official command, until she's actually doing what I want properly. I realized yesterday, how providing additional distraction helps dissuade her from keeping the toy as much, and thought the additional exercises might be a good opportunity to start teaching the "out". If I seem nagging and less serious in my approach, I think it helps a bit, because if she knows my intention is to get the toy, she becomes more resistant. I get lots of willing behavior from her in all manner of things... except giving up that toy.
> 
> Does that give a better perspective, to offer some suggestions? I've just never had a dog before that's so unwilling in this aspect.


I watched the other video, it seems she really likes tugging, use that to your advantage.

I think immobilizing the toy by pressing it against your body and not letting her move the toy at all, and waiting for her to out (which she will on her own, even if it takes a while) "might" be something that would work without you having to say anything or do anything additionally, then mark and reward with another short tug and once she is doing it repeatedly you can put a word to it...

If you dont want to put any words to it until she is doing what you want, then why all the different words? and the *no's* when you have not taught her what to do yet? that is really confusing.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Daryl, you need to "layer" your tug work. LOL


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Wow Joby, you actually have something constructive to say now? A couple days late, and several pages short.

Jeff, I don't know if you're being serious or not. That's not a term I'm familiar with, and no I don't have any of Ellis's stuff, if that's where it comes from.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

It is from his DVD. I almost pissed myself laughing at that.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

I started a thread on this problem about a week or 2 ago in the training disscussion area and there was a heap of good ideas and methods on how to get this done.


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