# Obedience Training



## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

It's interesting the different styles of training. Back in the day with my last GSD, we trained the "heel" with a choke chain and lead. Worked well.

Now the training involves ball drive. 

Night and day techniques, and results, I'd say. Does anyone train basic obedience with choke chain? I imagine so.


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

Lots of people still do…. And that style of training will be around until there are no more dogs left to train. There are many other ways to train obedience and one can argue that these other methods are quicker, more effective, and build a better bond with the handler.
You have to find out what works for each particular dog and develop your training program accordingly.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Did the choke chain method work to keep the dog's head up and looking at you?


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## Daniel Cox (Apr 17, 2006)

Kristen Cabe said:


> Did the choke chain method work to keep the dog's head up and looking at you?


Only if you choked him long enough. HEHEHE


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Choke chain never had him looking up (15 years ago). Ball method sure does!


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## Brian Peek (Dec 12, 2007)

I have found a combination of both works very well I use the ball as the reward so when he does heel he looks to me for his reward.


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## Lynsey Fuegner (Apr 11, 2007)

I will admit that I haven't been in the sport all that long, but I was originally taught the "choke chain" methods, with a pinch rather than a choke collar. The dogs I trained that way did heel very closely and acurately, but I agree that they didn't look up at me 100% of the time. Now I train using operant conditioning, we focus on the attention in the heeling from the get go and I'm much happier with the results. In no way is either method right or wrong, both are as effective as the trainer on the other end of the leash. I just know that, for me, I'm much happier training as I do now.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Ted, that's kind of what I figured. That's why the more motivational methods came about, I'm sure.


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Lynsey,

As I understand it:

Using a choke chain is one of the quadrants of operant training. Negative reinforcement (you pull on the chain until he complies). It works.

The ball training is also operant, but calles positive reinforcement. It also works. 

Having just started the ball training with heel work, it immediately struck me that the dig was far more into it and enthusiastic, but maybe the training takes longer.


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## Lynsey Fuegner (Apr 11, 2007)

Ted White said:


> Lynsey,
> 
> As I understand it:
> 
> ...


this is one of those instances where I totally wish it could be done during a day at training :grin: it's so hard to be sure everything is interpreted as it's stated...And like I said, the methods are only as effective as the trainer using them; I know the way I train I try to stay away from a training collar of any sort...In order to administed a negative, it simply has to be a negative in the dog's eyes. Once I have clearly taught the behavior I want in the heeling, if one of my (more advanced) dogs should not exhibit the behavior, one of the biggest negatives I can administer is teasing the dog with the toy...I also proof the dog with more random heeling patterns, lots of tight turns, halts, pace changes, etc. If the dog never knows what to expect they will try that much harder.
Again, this is just the way I train :grin:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Same club, same method as Lynsey. At 4 yrs old (this month) my GSD has not had a leash correction . That's for AKC and Schutzhund competition.
I wont hesitate to use compulsion but I've not found the need. 
Some 20+ yrs ago I messed up a top level competition dog's neck because of excessive use of the choke collar. If I find a need for correcting, I'd go right to a pinch. Much more humane, IMHO!


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Ted White said:


> Having just started the ball training with heel work, it immediately struck me that the dig was far more into it and enthusiastic, but maybe the training takes longer.


I'm not so sure it takes any longer than the compulsion method. For me, its been the same or faster with marker/clicker style training. Bob - what is your experience with the amount of time it takes to get similar results?


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## Lynsey Fuegner (Apr 11, 2007)

comparing the dogs (my own personal dogs or those I've worked for clients) that I have trained, cumpulsively, in the past to the dogs I have started opperantly I'd say they learn in the same amount of time, if not faster! I am currently working a 5 month old shepherd that I've had for about 8 weeks now, his heeling is much better than any dog I've trained cumpulsively in the amount of time I've been workinf with him. He's got great attention and position.


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## Ian Forbes (Oct 13, 2006)

Ted White said:


> Lynsey,
> 
> As I understand it:
> 
> Using a choke chain is one of the quadrants of operant training. Negative reinforcement (you pull on the chain until he complies). It works.


Close. Applying pressure to the choke chain would be positive punishment. When released (when the dog is in position) that would be negative reinforcement.



> The ball training is also operant, but calles positive reinforcement. It also works.


Close. The withholding of the ball would be negative punishment. Rewarding with the ball (when the dog is in position) would be positive reinforcement.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Konnie Hein said:


> I'm not so sure it takes any longer than the compulsion method. For me, its been the same or faster with marker/clicker style training. Bob - what is your experience with the amount of time it takes to get similar results?


Konnie, for me, it took a bit because I was/still have to many old habits burned ito my brain. I will say that Trooper, my second dog is understanding much faster even though I don't think he's got near the "though process" as Thunder did at the same age. This is due to MY having a better understand of operant conditioning. Thunder was/is a serious thinker. Trooper is very slow to mature. 
I'm going to actually start with a clicker tonight with Trooper. That should eliminate many problems I created with Thunder. 
We have a couple of first time dog trainers that have done absolutely fantastic with marker training. One EXTREAM high drive GSD and the other a really nice Rotty.They have been completely open and don't have the training baggage that I have. 
As with ANY training, it's all about the trainer getting the message accross to the dog and Timming, timming, timming! An ill timed marker and reward is no worse then an ill timed correction. I actually view it as better because the dog doesn't wonder WTF if it doesn't understand why it was corrected because of bad timing. With ill timed marker and reward, it's nothing more then a free treat to the dog. Maybe not learning, but not loosing confidence in the handler either.:wink:


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

Bob Scott said:


> Konnie, for me, it took a bit because I was/still have to many old habits burned ito my brain. I will say that Trooper, my second dog is understanding much faster even though I don't think he's got near the "though process" as Thunder did at the same age. This is due to MY having a better understand of operant conditioning. Thunder was/is a serious thinker. Trooper is very slow to mature.
> I'm going to actually start with a clicker tonight with Trooper. That should eliminate many problems I created with Thunder.
> We have a couple of first time dog trainers that have done absolutely fantastic with marker training. One EXTREAM high drive GSD and the other a really nice Rotty.They have been completely open and don't have the training baggage that I have.
> As with ANY training, it's all about the trainer getting the message accross to the dog and Timming, timming, timming! An ill timed marker and reward is no worse then an ill timed correction. I actually view it as better because the dog doesn't wonder WTF if it doesn't understand why it was corrected because of bad timing. With ill timed marker and reward, it's nothing more then a free treat to the dog. Maybe not learning, but not loosing confidence in the handler either.:wink:


Bob- I just started clicker work on my 8 month old and can say the timing is excellent and the results are very good.... The clicker makes me a better trainer for sure and the dog is not confused at all. I am loving it and so is he. I am asking my self why I waited so long.....](*,) I could have done this with my current dog and would have saved my self a lot of headache.

Peace!

Julie


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

First time with the clicker at club tonight. Friggin Amazing! I can't believe how much better my timming is compaired to voice markers. It's like my hand eye cordination is so much better then my eye voice connection (if that makes sense). Trooper picked up the "new" method in nothing flat. First time or two he looked at my clicker hand. After that I could see the light go on for him connecting the "new" marker to getting the reward. 
I've always looked at the clicker as just a gimmic that worked. For ME, the change over was dramatic! 
Guess at 62 I'm officially a Yuppie trainer now. :lol: :wink:


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> First time with the clicker at club tonight. Friggin Amazing! I can't believe how much better my timming is compaired to voice markers. It's like my hand eye cordination is so much better then my eye voice connection (if that makes sense). Trooper picked up the "new" method in nothing flat. First time or two he looked at my clicker hand. After that I could see the light go on for him connecting the "new" marker to getting the reward.
> I've always looked at the clicker as just a gimmic that worked. For ME, the change over was dramatic!
> Guess at 62 I'm officially a Yuppie trainer now. :lol: :wink:


Very cool, Bob!

You haven't lived though until you've clicker trained a horse! :-D BTW - they learn much faster than dogs!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Konnie said;
"You haven't lived though until you've clicker trained a horse! :grin: BTW - they learn much faster than dogs!"

That amazes me! I've been around horses for a large portion of my life. Other then "working" Quarter horses most seem more interested in avoiding situations then learning. "I don't like that". RUN! "That looks suspicious". RUN! :wink:


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Ted White said:


> It's interesting the different styles of training. Back in the day with my last GSD, we trained the "heel" with a choke chain and lead. Worked well.
> 
> Now the training involves ball drive.
> 
> Night and day techniques, and results, I'd say. Does anyone train basic obedience with choke chain? I imagine so.


Back in the day it was the only technology that worked. Now many professional trainers use e-collars. Set low they can get the job done in very little time, set too high and your dog is a basket case. And the newer models have page modes that vibrate...amazing the power of the mind. Puts the old Koehler stuff to shame.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Konnie said;
> "You haven't lived though until you've clicker trained a horse! :grin: BTW - they learn much faster than dogs!"
> 
> That amazes me! I've been around horses for a large portion of my life. Other then "working" Quarter horses most seem more interested in avoiding situations then learning. "I don't like that". RUN! "That looks suspicious". RUN! :wink:


They might have been avoiding situations because traditional horse training methods involve a lot of physical pressure on horses. What animal wants to purposefully submit themselves to that?? However, they have amazing food drive. I changed my dangerous, dominant young gelding into a sweet, responsive follower using clicker training. He comes when called and even retrieves! :grin: 

And, I've always thought that the more dominant and handler hard/aggressive the dog, the more beneficial clicker/marker training would be for them. I know a lot of people feel it is the opposite. My thinking is that you can beat up on a handler sensitive dog with no repercussions (other than that the dog looks whipped and might even just shut down), but a handler insensitive/aggressive dog might retaliate after a correction. However, if you manipulate them in to doing what you want through clicker/marker training, the conflict disappears. Seems the same is true for horses. I'll have to take some video of my horse retrieving his ball for me. Taught him that in less than 10 mins!


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## Ian Forbes (Oct 13, 2006)

Konnie Hein said:


> And, I've always thought that the more dominant and handler hard/aggressive the dog, the more beneficial clicker/marker training would be for them. I know a lot of people feel it is the opposite. My thinking is that you can beat up on a handler sensitive dog with no repercussions (other than that the dog looks whipped and might even just shut down), but a handler insensitive/aggressive dog might retaliate after a correction. However, if you manipulate them in to doing what you want through clicker/marker training, the conflict disappears. Seems the same is true for horses. I'll have to take some video of my horse retrieving his ball for me. Taught him that in less than 10 mins!


I would love to see that.

Interestingly, Rottweilers used to be described as stubborn, hard and difficult to train. I think harsh or very compulsive training did not suit the breed and they just reacted badly to it....


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Ian Forbes said:


> I would love to see that.
> 
> Interestingly, Rottweilers used to be described as stubborn, hard and difficult to train. I think harsh or very compulsive training did not suit the breed and they just reacted badly to it....


Bob/Ian/Lynsey:
I have a friend who, after 20 years of training animals (dogs and horses mainly), now uses only marker/clicker training. Her speciality is helping owners with aggressive dogs. Despite all the naysaying that you can't fix aggression with a clicker, she's quite successful.

She's also the one who showed me that I could tame my bucking/rearing/kicking QH through clicker training.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Konnie said;
"And, I've always thought that the more dominant and handler hard/aggressive the dog, the more beneficial clicker/marker training would be for them. I know a lot of people feel it is the opposite. My thinking is that you can beat up on a handler sensitive dog with no repercussions (other than that the dog looks whipped and might even just shut down), but a handler insensitive/aggressive dog might retaliate after a correction. However, if you manipulate them in to doing what you want through clicker/marker training, the conflict disappears. Seems the same is true for horses. I'll have to take some video of my horse retrieving his ball for me."


 I think I LUV you! :lol: :lol: I just commented in another post here what I though about handler aggressive dogs and heavy corrections.:wink:


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> I think I LUV you! :lol: :lol: I just commented in another post here what I though about handler aggressive dogs and heavy corrections.:wink:


Great minds think alike!!! :grin:


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