# Retrieving Metal



## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I know a lot of detection/SAR people want to see a dog retrieve metal when considering it as a candidate for the work. My question is why? 

My experience has been that puppies pick up and carry metal around without a problem, assuming they are exposed to it as an option, ie they have some sort of metal toys in their environment. I routinely put metal objects in my pups pen (soda cans, matchbox cars, AKC dumbells, etc) and can't remember a pup that wouldn't pick it up, chew on it, etc. But I know some breeders don't put metal objects in with the pups.

What I have also seen though is pups who then go off to a home where they are never exposed to metal objects anymore many times loose the willingness to pick it up. However, if they go to someone who continues to use metal objects as part of their normal routine (playing fetch for the most part) the dog continues to be willing to pick up metal objects.

So now we have a couple of older dogs, whatever age. One might be medium drive but will retrieve metal because that's just been part of life, the other might have higher drives but not be real thrilled about metal because it was never exposed to it as a pup or later on. I won't even bring a dog with a forced retrieve foundation into this equation, since that could really throw things off LOL

If the dog's drives are being tested, does a willingness or lack of to pick up metal really tell you which dog is the better detection/SAR candidate? Is there something about the job that requires the dog to be willing to pick up metal, and that's why it's desired?


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

It's certainly not something I bother testing, Kadi. I wouldn't discount a dog who won't pick up metal if he's got everything else, nor do I think those who pick it up are sure things.

There's nothing about disaster SAR work that would require a dog to pick up metal.


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## David Feliciano (Oct 31, 2008)

I could be wrong, but I think the idea is to evaluate the way the dog holds the object. Metal isn't a material that most dogs naturally want to play with. If think they want to watch the way a dog carries a metal object and see how long he will hold the object for. This combined with environmental pressure can tell you a lot about a dog's nerves. I always thought this test was more about nerves than drives but again I could be way off.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

I think that is the idea, David. However, I've seen nervy dogs pick up, carry and retrieve metal objects. JME.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Just in case anyone else is wondering, the dog I recently posted a "hunt drive" video of does retrieve metal LOL But it was the number of people who inquired about him and asked me if he will retrieve it that got me to thinking "why? what does it show and why does it matter?"

Konnie you have a good point about nerves also, just the other day I was watching a dog who I wouldn't consider strong nerved (he's not horrible, but he's not really strong either) play with his metal food bowl in his kennel at the owners house. He doesn't have any other toys in there, so he picks up, carries around, barks at, etc his food bowl.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Not something I test for either....it does not matter to me if they can do that or not....


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Not something I test for either. I don't want my dogs picking up objects anyway. Indicate, mark and collect is our procedure.

DFrost


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

I could care less.

It IS cool seeing dogs that will retreive weird stuff of all shapes, sizes and mouth feel, but if the other stuff is there and the dog doesn't love to play fetch with rebar...I am fine with that


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

The fellow who helped me test my dog DID throw the metal toys which the dog *did* retrieve [but did not really seem excited about] but was far more concerned with throwing the toys in very unusual places, noises, surfaces, etc. and with testing hunt drive by throwing the ball and then we spun the dog around several times before releasing him so he had no clue where to go.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

I test dogs on metal (copper usually) when I am selection testing for a certain Govt agency who buys from me and they require a very strong metal retriever. There is a big difference between a dog who will carry a food bowl in his kennel and the way we test.
I need dogs that will retrieve metal with the same intensity as they retrieve a Kong ball or a tug toy.
Actually I test only with heavy PVC pipe, copper pipe, and rubber hose. If they retrieve those 3 items with extreme intensity, then I will continue on with my selection test.
The things I am looking for are:
how fast does the dog go out to search for the copper pipe? 
when he finds it, how fast and hard does he strike into it to pick it up? I like to see a divit left in the grass from the way he strikes into it.
How long will he carry it , and how does he carry it?
I look for several minutes of carry with no human interaction, and I want it deep in his mouth, (not barely holding it in his front teeth)
If the dog walks away for it, the test is over, he must never leave it.
How hard is it to get the pipe back from him? I want it to be a big struggle, (very possesive of his copper pipe) If he just drops it out of his mouth with no desire to keep it, he will likely not work for me, or my clients.
I will test him in the heat of the day after he is hot and thirsty, I will purposely test him in an area with a bucket of fresh water to see if he is more willing to play with his copper pipe, or if he goes to the water instead. I will drop the copper pipe in the bucket of water and I need him to stick his head under the water to pick it up.
I use copper because it is very uncomfortable in the dogs mouth (has an almost electric shocking effect, just like when you bite into aluminum foil) Copper is also soft enough that a dog is less likely to injur his teeth.
There really is a big difference between a dog who will pick up a copper pipe, and a dog that has extreme retrieve drive for a copper pipe.
It is easier to see the difference live and in person that to try to explain it in text.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Mike,

What about the why part of Kadi's question? What does that test tell you about the dog that you would not know about the dog unless you performed it? And why is it important to the type of detection work the dog will be perfoming?

Thanks!!!!


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

mike suttle said:


> There really is a big difference between a dog who will pick up a copper pipe, and a dog that has extreme retrieve drive for a copper pipe.
> .


I have a horse who would make a good "detection dog!" He loves his copper bit. Will even pick it up out of the water trough! I often have a hard time getting it from him too. He's very possessive of it! He clamps down on that thing and won't let go!  

(just kidding...back to the serious and real question and answer...)


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

I train totally different things from you guys, but picking up metal is one of my tests for mobility service dogs. The dog will be expected to retrieve keys, silverware, food cans, soda cans, etc.

I use a key chain and a wire grill brush for evaluating. I don't mind a dog choosing to pick up the keys by a fabric keychain, if the dog will pick up the grill brush. But if the dog consistently chooses the non-metal parts and the dog hesitates with all-metal objects, I'll want to pass on by.

If the dog does fine with metal, I continue the test with cans. Unlike Mike who is looking for a firm grip, I need a soft grip. Soft enough to not puncture a soda can. :lol:

I *could* work around metal retrieval, but do I want to?


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Mike,
> 
> What about the why part of Kadi's question? What does that test tell you about the dog that you would not know about the dog unless you performed it? And why is it important to the type of detection work the dog will be perfoming?
> 
> Thanks!!!!


Without turning this into an argument about how everyone has examples of dogs that will carry metal, but still are not as good as other dogs who dont carry metal. I will just say this........
In my experience, the dogs that have the intensity and extreme drive for a copper pipe also typically have the drive to work in about every job we ask of them. Again, I am not talking about a dog that simply picks up metal, but a dog that is very intense about getting to it as quickly as he can and has a very strong desire to posses and carry it firmly.
I test the dog with a copper pipe because that is the least favorable object for a dog to carry in its mouth. If the dog shows a strong desire to carry and posses, hunt for and play with a copper pipe, then when I start training with a rolled towel, a rubber hose, PVC, or a ball or kong then the dog will most certainly be even more driven for these objects. The use of a metal pipe is just something that we test for to make sure the dog has the drive to retrieve anything. 
I have 40-50 dogs in my kennel at any given time, almost all of the ones with super strong retrieve drives for metal are also dual purpose quality dogs. I have seen even low drive single purpose detection dogs carry a feed bowl or play with a metal bucket in there kennel, but that is not the same as the type of drive and intensity we look for when testing with iron for the dogs that we purchase.
If my internet connection was not sooooo SLLLOOOWWWWW I would try to get some video of what I am talking about. But trust me almost any dog will play with a feed bowl and water bucket in the kennel, but that is much different than what I am talking about.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Thanks for the further explination Mike, you obviously have a proven system that works well for you and your clients.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

But then, what is the explanation that or under what conditions do these agencies require the retrieval of metal objects? I understand better why, as David states, they prefer the dog to indicate and not disrupt the area.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Back in the day, long before the invention of "linen" or "jute" we ran about in suits made of copper coated lead. The old school ways are much better than this silly "new" idea of jute and linen. Oh the mighty warriors we were. If you got pinched in OUR suits, the dog was a magnificent example of the breed, but inevitably caused irreversable damage, as the armorer had a hard time beating the suit back into shape so we could extract our damaged limbs. 

THis is why I prefer the dog to bite the upper shoulder area.

However, working in thunderstorms became illegal, as we were losing decoys to God's wrath at an incredible rate.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Daryl Ehret said:


> But then, what is the explanation that or under what conditions do these agencies require the retrieval of metal objects? I understand better why, as David states, they prefer the dog to indicate and not disrupt the area.


The use of retrieving metal will likely never be used again after the testing phase. As I said above it is simply a way to quickly see just how willing the dog is to play with and possess all objects. If he is crazy for a metal pipe, he will likely be way crazier for a kong or a ball.
LIke in football practice for example........if the requirement was to bench press 200lbs, and the coach saw you press 250lbs he did not require you to go back and show him that you could press 200lbs.
If I test a dog that is crazy for metal, then I dont need to see him play with a tennis ball.
If I test a dog that has good retrieve drive for a tennis ball, and he tests well during my 45 minute test, and I take the dog and begin to put him under the stress of training, then he goes into the real world stress of his working environment.......(not here in the good O'l USA, but maybe somewhere a bit hotter, dryer, and more likely to hear bombs going off all day) now the dog that was happy to play with a tennis ball back home in the green plush fields or the safe warehouse downtown, suddenly suffers from the added stress and one day shuts down.
A dog that is crazy for a metal pipe here will likely still be motivated by a rubber toy there. In general these types of dogs simply have more drive to carry them through more stress under more extreme conditions.
This will be my last post on this issue.......
The people who understand the importance of a crazy iron retreiver know why we test it.
The people who dont require it for there jobs dont understand the need for it, and that is fine too, I am not saying that a dog that wont retrieve metal wont still work in many different detection roles.
](*,)


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Back in the day, long before the invention of "linen" or "jute" we ran about in suits made of copper coated lead.


I have a horse to sell you for protection work...calm, full grip on anything copper!


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

mike suttle said:


> This will be my last post on this issue.......
> The people who understand the importance of a crazy iron retreiver know why we test it.
> The people who dont require it for there jobs dont understand the need for it, and that is fine too, I am not saying that a dog that wont retrieve metal wont still work in many different detection roles.
> ](*,)


I hope you have one post left in ya for this thread to answer my question. 

Do you put emphasis on the intense metal retrieval in the selection testing of all the dogs you sell, or just the dogs intended for the specific agency you referred to?


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## Nathen Danforth (Feb 12, 2009)

If Mike is talking about the agency I'm thinking of, the metal(aluminum/copper) pipe is continually used throughout training with the dog. It is used as a reward object along with hose, wood and jute. 

It's nice when you realize you forgot to have a reward object on you and you can use your Streamlight Stinger as a reward. LOL


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

mike suttle said:


> The use of retrieving metal will likely never be used again after the testing phase. As I said above it is simply a way to quickly see just how willing the dog is to play with and possess all objects. If he is crazy for a metal pipe, he will likely be way crazier for a kong or a ball.


Well then, for that matter, I think it's pretty bogus that a local sherriff's dept. decided to washout a dog of mine that was being trained for narcotics, on the basis that it failed to retrieve metal items. There was all the sufficient hunt and prey drive necessary for the work in that particular dog. No environmental issues either, or any possible negative aspect that I was aware of. AND _it should have taken less than 90 days_ to determine that deficiency, before wanting to return the dog for a full refund. I'm glad you have the patience to deal with such situations, because I wouldn't.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Konnie Hein said:


> I hope you have one post left in ya for this thread to answer my question.
> 
> Do you put emphasis on the intense metal retrieval in the selection testing of all the dogs you sell, or just the dogs intended for the specific agency you referred to?


OK, Konnie...........one more here just for you. :wink: 
As of lately that has been my standard selection test. In the past i have sold dogs to other departments that did not require iron retrieves of course.
The iron retrievers are not cheap, so not every department can afford to buy them. But the Customers who require iron retrievers are VERY knowledgable about dogs and they know the importance of this and they also have the funds available to buy these types of dog.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Everybody’s going be throwing copper pipe around and looking at their dog all week now.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

What's the worth of copper these days? I bet a copper detection dog would be worth alot!


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Think truffle detection, Daryl. That's where the big bucks are!


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Chris McDonald said:


> Everybody’s going be throwing copper pipe around and looking at their dog all week now.


I had to try this for some reason, I got a peice of copper today.

The first time he picked it up and carried it for a few feet and then layed down and started to lick it, the second time he wanted it abit more. We are having one of our annual spring blizzards so I did it in the garage. I don't know if it means anything but he does treat it different than a ball.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJp76oqExhk


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Hey chicken panties, what is it like to be all pussed up around your own dog ???? AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHa


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

You think a dog can smell gold, cause that shit is like $900 an ounce now


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I am not into training, I am into "natural ability". I want to see it in my dogs. That being said, I find Suttles posts totally fascinating from an informative standpoint because I know he breeds dogs and what he is saying is not based on one or two dogs, but is based on observing a lot of dogs. You just can't get this kind of evaluation today because few people have a lot of dogs. Keep up the posts Mike.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Hey chicken panties, what is it like to be all pussed up around your own dog ???? AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHa


Ya know, you lose all depth perception when one eye is closed and the other is up against a viewer or whatever it's called.

Barfchunk


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

your supposed to put your eye there ?? No wonder my video skilz are terrible. Have to try that next time.


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