# New Field/Helper Effect On Dog's Performance



## Doug Wright 2 (Jul 24, 2011)

First: 3 yo Male GSD in Protection Trainning.

Has anyone ever had a problem where thier dog would not perform at a new field, location, or helper? I'm in-between Trainers right now. I traveled yesterday to a prospective trainer's field for an evaluation and to learn his philospohies. I pulled the dog out of the back of my truck and we did some aggitation with sleeve. My dogs display of aggression was so-so (borderline weak) but his willingness to bite the sleeve when presented was not. He did some half a$$ choppy bites then spit it out and would not reengage. Granted we had just traveled an hour in the car, but I don't believe that should have made that much of a difference. 

We took a break to let him wonder the field alittle bit then I began to play with him with his tug. When I had him on the tug and he was showing signs of being more comfortable, the trainer took hold of the tug (dog still on it) and they played. This didn't last long (3 minutes or so) then he was done. The dog didn't seem afraid or tuck his tail, but he was indeed disinterested. He didn't want to play or perform. We tried the flirt pole, we tried the tug on a rope. 

I was SCREAMING inside. This dog can do the work and has been for some time. I dont' think I could have been more embarrassed had my pants fallen down around my ankles. The new trainer said that he would have to back the dog up in his training which is absolutely just fine with me. I expect that he'll recoup quickly or not. I'm going to give this trainer a try starting with 4 weekly sessions. That should give both of us a chance to see if continuing is worth it. 

WTF happened here?


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

It is amazing how much dogs are situational learners. This applies to many situations.

In Schutzhund, something as simple as moving a blind 20' can throw a monkey wrench into a routine. They are highly likely to go to the spot they were used to. My TD was telling me about judging a world championship. a dog was doing a typical prey oriented slalom (faulty) blind search. A blind fell down during the exercise. The dog still went around the blind.

That is why it is important to work dogs in various locations, fields and situations. It does not necessarily speak to a crappy dog, only a wake-up call to training approaches. If the dog can not respond appropriately to de-sensitizing to new situations, then you have reason to worry. At this point it is just about your lack of preparation. 

That said, my current bitch would not be lacking in the actual bite work in a new situation, just problems in terms of routines. However she has worked on many different helpers and scenario's. Time will tell though, don't freak out too much yet. Backing up is a good plan any time a new scenario is presented.


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## Doug Wright 2 (Jul 24, 2011)

Thanks Steve,
I dont think you could be more right. He's only done bite work\aggitation in two places (home and 1st trainers facility). I have to concede that its not the dog's but my own fault. By not taking him to other places to train. Still embarrassing though. He's a good dog and will recover I'm sure. Just hope this new trainer has the patients, both with the dog and me. This is my first dog and I seem to keep learning the hard way.

Doug


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

What I cannot envisage from your post is, how the helper took on the dog.

I was between helpers once and I asked my former helper, how should I react? He said don't worry, a good helper will take the dog on a line bite just to check him out. Actually like they would a young dog. My dog was about 3 years' old, too but 3-year old dogs are treated by new helpers like 6 month old dogs before they have assessed the dog's strengths and aggression.

You say you were embarrassed. You didn't have to be. Your job was to support your dog, if he needed it. You might have given off a number of negative vibes - maybe not.

I remember once taking one of my dogs to a helper in Germany. The dog had drive in plenty but the helper managed to get a "squeal" out of him. I must say I was mortified but this is the wrong approach entirely. The dog went on to gain IPO 3 with protection over 90 and never had a weakness with the helpers. My new trainer at the time said I should never worry about whichever helper was functioning at a trial. The dog would take him on.

One bad biting incident will never make history.

One tip - if you take your young (three years isn't old) dog to a new helper - tell him he has no experience. Your dog will fare better this way. A little white lie can go a long way to furthering your dog sport. Some helpers survive off being able to scare off dogs - it adds to their "credentials". Not saying this was the case but go over in your own mind what actually happened.


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## Tim Connell (Apr 17, 2010)

What Steve Burger said:

"That is why it is important to work dogs in various locations, fields and situations. It does not necessarily speak to a crappy dog, only a wake-up call to training approaches."


It is very important to have the dog exposed to every environment possible, even for a dog only used strictly for sport. The way I, and many of my friends also feel, is that if a sport dog can work on all of it's component tasks (guarding, biting, obedience, etc.) outside the realm of the trial field, the dog will be very strong when working on a flat, grass field. 

We try to expose the dogs to every situation possible, so it takes the variable of "strange environments" out of the equation. Keep it fun, keep it positive, and good luck! It is just an exposure issue, so don't beat yourself up over it.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

+1 to situational learning

Dogs suck at generalization. I am our clubs helper so frequently I'm driving all over to get helper work on mine I can't do myself or with a club member who isn't a helper. Bc of these frequent changes of field, helper, etc, my dogs will work equally well anywhere on anyone whether they are good or bad. Wasn't a training goal per se, but a nice side effect. Even when I have a consistent decoy again, I'll continue this way... Variety is the spice of life be it dog or human life


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## Doug Wright 2 (Jul 24, 2011)

Thanks you guys. Im still learning obviously. I frequenty take my dog to a wide open park to throw the frisbee and ball. I can play tug there too. Infact I will just put a tug in my truck and play tug where ever I find reasonable. That's all I can think of right now. My new trainer does do training in different enviroments so I think were gunna be ok. I was interested in how prevalent this issue is.
Thanks.


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Doug Wright 2 said:


> Thanks you guys. Im still learning obviously. I frequenty take my dog to a wide open park to throw the frisbee and ball. I can play tug there too. Infact I will just put a tug in my truck and play tug where ever I find reasonable. That's all I can think of right now. My new trainer does do training in different enviroments so I think were gunna be ok. I was interested in how prevalent this issue is.
> Thanks.


The stronger the dog the lesser the affect environment has on bite work. Some dogs do not care if you fly them to a different state, get off the plane and work them, they bite as if nothing changed. For some dogs it matters a lot and requires a careful/methodical approach.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

is this the same dog that has been in PPD training for 2 yrs?


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

A three year old dog which has had a lot of training and will not bite on a new field?
For me it would be easy,new dog.
I am sorry for you but i want to be honest,a lot of trainers will tell you to give the dog time etc.
I would imagine you are paying for training?
Think about it.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

jack van strien said:


> A three year old dog which has had a lot of training and will not bite on a new field?
> For me it would be easy,new dog.
> I am sorry for you but i want to be honest,a lot of trainers will tell you to give the dog time etc.
> I would imagine you are paying for training?
> Think about it.


I would give it maybe two lessons if I really liked the dog. If he is to be a PP dog, he should be able to work where you need him. If you only need him at home and his work is good there. Fine. But you may need to learn the definition of good for your situation.

You want to make sure neither trainer is selling you the emperor's new clothes. 

In their defense, the second guy at least. Some people will not tell you the truth if they feel they'll hurt your feelings because you like the dog, nor talk bad about another trainer. You need the truth if you are relying on the dog to perform a function of protection.


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## Kevin Cyr (Dec 28, 2012)

Dave Colborn said:


> I would give it maybe two lessons if I really liked the dog. If he is to be a PP dog, he should be able to work where you need him. If you only need him at home and his work is good there. Fine. But you may need to learn the definition of good for your situation.
> 
> You want to make sure neither trainer is selling you the emperor's new clothes.
> 
> In their defense, the second guy at least. Some people will not tell you the truth if they feel they'll hurt your feelings because you like the dog, nor talk bad about another trainer. You need the truth if you are relying on the dog to perform a function of protection.


 
brutal honesty is lacking in alot of trainers these days...


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## Sue DiCero (Sep 2, 2006)

Kevin Cyr said:


> brutal honesty is lacking in alot of trainers these days...



Couple of things in addition.

1. Difference between teaching and trialing helper (depends on venue).
2. Actual experience
3. And the brutal honesty noted above....


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Kevin Cyr said:


> brutal honesty is lacking in alot of trainers these days...


Lol I try to just be completely honest without the brutal part


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

I have a friend that took a dog to a trial. ON the gun attack the dog never bit the decoy. That dog has never seen another day of training or trial again. Said dog would be gone but the wife loves him. 
He said he at least needs a dog that he knows will show up for trial day. That is the truth.


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

My comment was offered with the thought in mind it is the handler's first dog and there are too many potential variables to offer a real opinion. First we do not know the methodology of training that the dog has been exposed to prior to the second trainer and we do not know the methodology of the second trainer. From an inexperienced handler's post we cannot see the level of pressure put on by either handler. We do not know if the first helper worked the dog entirely in prey (highly likely) and the second one put direct pressure or did nothing. 

I think there is just too much unknown here to take the macho approach and tell the handler to get a new dog. 

I remember Lance telling me about judging a trial, I think in Toronto. He instructed the helper to not pop the sleeve but to just threaten with the stick. At least one dog did not know what to do without the faulty prompt of a sleeve popping, and did nothing. Is it the dog's fault that it has had shitty helper work? You take this kind of scenario into an unknown training environment and there is just not enough info imo to offer concrete advice.

Also different people have different objectives for their dog, especially their first one.


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

I didnt mean just get a new dog. Just stating a story I know. I know I want to know that no matter what my dog will bite. Thats all. I have had enough time spent on bad dogs that I wont spend more time on bad dogs. That is all. Its a handlers personal decision.


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

As has been said, too many variables to say whether the dog needs to be replaced or not (though it may). This also coming from a guy who had a similar experience during a trial so I have been there. I elected to train the dog in front of me. 

I wouldn't necessarily go into panic mode there could have been plenty of reasons why what happened, happened and several of them don't include the dog being a dud (though that is a possibility). I think we all forget that they are dogs, not machines, they can be predictable but just like us, sometimes they have bad days. 

As a side note in regards to the dog getting experiences on other fields / decoys, I know an old time police k-9 trainer that he wouldn't sign off on the dog / team until they had been on at least 5 simulated calls for service. All in different locations, different decoys, different scenarios, and they were blind to the handler. He told me he used to see the confidence go up after each scenario. A decent dog would go to a great dog, a great dog would go to an awesome dog.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Brett Bowen said:


> As has been said, too many variables to say whether the dog needs to be replaced or not (though it may). This also coming from a guy who had a similar experience during a trial so I have been there. I elected to train the dog in front of me.
> 
> I wouldn't necessarily go into panic mode there could have been plenty of reasons why what happened, happened and several of them don't include the dog being a dud (though that is a possibility). I think we all forget that they are dogs, not machines, they can be predictable but just like us, sometimes they have bad days.
> 
> As a side note in regards to the dog getting experiences on other fields / decoys, I know an old time police k-9 trainer that he wouldn't sign off on the dog / team until they had been on at least 5 simulated calls for service. All in different locations, different decoys, different scenarios, and they were blind to the handler. He told me he used to see the confidence go up after each scenario. A decent dog would go to a great dog, a great dog would go to an awesome dog.


Similarly, a friend who does a lot of k9 work said he could see when the last time a street dog got a real bite based on their demeanor... that there was a profound different posture/confidence level in the dog immediately after a real bite that slowly faded until the next bite.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

I think most dogs that don't do good on new fields/helpers is a result of training more then temperament. People train on the same field with the same helper week after week after week and then go trial somewhere else and are surprised when the dog is confused. Mix it up. Even setting the same field up differently will help


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Thomas Barriano said:


> I think most dogs that don't do good on new fields/helpers is a result of training more then temperament. People train on the same field with the same helper week after week after week and then go trial somewhere else and are surprised when the dog is confused. Mix it up. Even setting the same field up differently will help


I agree. I bet for every "the dog sucks" scenario there are 10 "the training was flawed" scenarios


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

World of difference between whether a dog simply doesn't run blinds the same but if something as simple as popping the sleeve for a bite is causing a loss of drive/interest to me is more dog than training particularly a 3 year old dog who has been working protection for a while.


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

Daniel Lybbert said:


> I didnt mean just get a new dog. Just stating a story I know. I know I want to know that no matter what my dog will bite. Thats all. I have had enough time spent on bad dogs that I wont spend more time on bad dogs. That is all. Its a handlers personal decision.


 I agree. I myself would not waste time on a dog that does not bring it, but I also recognize that not everyone has my same objectives. I know my bitch is going to bite regardless. I had a male (since has been given to my daughter). I never quite knew which dog was going to show up for training. He actually was not a bad dog, just inconsistent. Since he has matured he is a bit more consistent but still not what I really want.


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

Keith Jenkins said:


> World of difference between whether a dog simply doesn't run blinds the same but if something as simple as popping the sleeve for a bite is causing a loss of drive/interest to me is more dog than training particularly a 3 year old dog who has been working protection for a while.


 Maybe, but there is some pretty crappy training going on in the world. A marginal dog trained purely in prey, that has never seen pressure is a recipe for disaster if/when they ever do see it.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

video next session, please...


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Steve Burger said:


> Maybe, but there is some pretty crappy training going on in the world. A marginal dog trained purely in prey, that has never seen pressure is a recipe for disaster if/when they ever do see it.


No doubt there is crappy training that abounds in the dog world but based on Doug's description doesn't sound like much pressure to me. Add in the fact the dog wouldn't even engage with a tug or flirt pole signals a bit more than a training issue to me. Not saying training isn't playing a part in the equation I just don't think it's a major factor.


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## Doug Wright 2 (Jul 24, 2011)

I appreciate everyone taking an interest. I've read a shitload of your posts and respect your input greatly. I would have been back sooner but I needed some time to digest all of your input. 

I want to introduce myself a little bit more than what you’ve may have read in my Intro or Bio thread. 

I took on this hobby soon after retiring from the Navy. It started with videos with Youtube and a lot of internet research. I took on a project management position with a prominent shipbuilder and finished my degree. I bring up my employment because it lends to the fact that I have to travel for months at a time leaving my 62 year old wife in the house by herself. Yes I have guns, but I also have a new found passion and need for this venue of training. 

There is a lot of experience on this forum. I totally understand the lack of patients I see when some people say get a “new dog” or “good dog”. I bet its tough watching greenhorns beat their head up against the wall. I know it hurts me. However in my case, I wanted to start from scratch – start with puppy and bring him up. It hasn’t been easy by any means – men and women with your experience can testify to that. But I’ve learned so much more that I would have if I had purchased an “out-of-the-box” ready to go dog or a dog with “greater” potential. I chose a dog that I thought would make the grade. I think I did ok for a greenhorn but I didn’t do so hot at identifying a quality trainer. 

My first trainer came recommended by a girl I knew that went through his apprenticeship program. I made the rookie mistake and bought the farm upfront. Total price came to $4,000 and paid in full. At 5 months old I took the dog to him and he keep the dog for 2 weeks for OB (on and off leash) and an introduction to protection work and remote collar. Upon pick up, the demo was great (I thought) and we went back every two weeks for further training which consisted of bite work. All the work was in prey (of course) but we were doing the same thing over and over. Run and bite, run and bite. There wasn’t much more than that. The Trainer rarely put on the sleeve. He mostly sat on his ass on a stump and directed this apprentices who had the sleeve on. I know the decoy is the most important tool when it comes to imprinting and progressing the dog through. But these guys weren’t doing me any favors. They were pushing the sleeve into my dog’s mouth and whipping his ass with a whip to “toughen him up”. For vehicle protection: they put my dog in my truck and whipped, poked and prodded till the dog came out with teeth ablazing. They put on a sleeve to test him and he bit and held on so it seemed to me to be effective. Whether this is the proper way to train this I don’t know. It’s pretty funny to watch people jump when he goes off.

The fact of the matter is, this guy should not be training protection dogs and I should have left long ago instead of working with him for 2.5 years. 

My second trainer came with good intentions but didn’t have the experience to teach me and the dog. We only did 4 or 5 ½ hour sessions with him so he hasn’t made much of a mark. This is the reason I posted questions here on the forum. I was frustrated. I felt that if this dog’s abilities were going to progress, I was going to have to do it myself. And we all know that I can’t do it. I would be working in circles with no methodology or training plan in place. But that was where I was at. I live in the South Bay area of San Diego and finding anyone with real qualifications to help or train with do not exist. 

I went and met with a local trainer who is the training director for a local Schutzhund Club. He has a decent resume in sport with some accomplished dogs. He invited me out to his facility this Saturday to watch his group work-out then we will roll into our scheduled training after. I’m going to make a day of it just for the experience. I don’t have the necessary time or need for sport but I think there is a whole lot there that I can learn from. 

Videos: I have some on my phone and computer. I’ll have to upload them and make them available. I had a bad experience with another forum after I posted a video and quickly took it down which later got hijacked and reposted after I left. They were rough but they were right. The training video I posted showed them that my trainer was a POS. I took a bit of offense and left the site (avoidance-right?). 

Anyways, that’s where I’m at. I hope I was able to fill in some gaps and thanks again for your interest. I think it would serve the newbie community well to establish a mentorship system here with “Working Dog Forums”. I bet there are greenhorns here that could use it. I know I could


R/
Doug


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Unfortunately Doug your story is not an isolated incident as it happens more than people care to admit. Kudo's for speaking up and giving a bit more background information. 

Personally I never tell people to get a new dog. My motto is dance with the one that brung ya!...Just try and be honest and realistic about what you have at the end of the lead.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Kevin Cyr said:


> brutal honesty is lacking in alot of trainers these days...


I'm thinking honesty is a difficult quality to find with most folks, brutal or otherwise. Oh, but I gather you might be able to find it here and there. I think you know what I mean.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Steve Burger said:


> Maybe, but there is some pretty crappy training going on in the world. A marginal dog trained purely in prey, that has never seen pressure is a recipe for disaster if/when they ever do see it.


You bring up a good point. Under the circumstances described above how might you suggest for that to be avoided, if at all?


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Nicole Stark said:


> I'm thinking honesty is a difficult quality to find with most folks, brutal or otherwise. Oh, but I gather you might be able to find it here and there. I think you know what I mean.


A lot of people either don't want the honest or can't handle it. So rather than deal with the fall out you filter what you say, oftentimes to the point where you've said absolutely nothing. Put a smile on your face and pet the dog on the head or tell the handler they're great and they love you.

T


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## Doug Wright 2 (Jul 24, 2011)

I wanted to add another post to inform all that I’m just not relying on Youtube or general internet articles and forums. After rereading my post I seen an opening for someone to jump in there and bust a few balls. I don’t want anyone to believe that I have any misperception that electronic media is going to cut it. I’m smart enough to know this training is largely gained by experience (trial & error and lots of practice). One of my favorite mottos reads: “*Good judgment comes with e**xperience, **and experience c**omes from **surviving bad j**udgment**”. * Lucky are we that are exposed to knowledgeable people that are willing to act as a safety net before any real damage is done.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Doug Wright 2 said:


> I wanted to add another post to inform all that I’m just not relying on Youtube or general internet articles and forums. After rereading my post I seen an opening for someone to jump in there and bust a few balls. I don’t want anyone to believe that I have any misperception that electronic media is going to cut it. I’m smart enough to know this training is largely gained by experience (trial & error and lots of practice). One of my favorite mottos reads: “*Good judgment comes with e**xperience, **and experience c**omes from **surviving bad j**udgment**”. *Lucky are we that are exposed to knowledgeable people that are willing to act as a safety net before any real damage is done.


So given what you know of your dog's training history from puppyhood through young adulthood, were you really surpised at the behavior at the new field? You paint a picture of all prey work to start with a puppy/young dog, then whipped into defense, and now, wtf is wrong with my dog that's uncomfortable with a strange decoy on a strange field. Initially, I would have thought this a change of environment/nerves situation and really didn't buy into "situational learning" or a training issue. But it sounds like situationally, before he was either old enough to handle it or has the genetics for it, your dog was taught his little life was at stake--to toughen him up. You said you don't have the time or need for sports. Then what is the hobby? Based on what you've posted, I don't think you have a handle on assessing the puppy/dog; training progression; drives; nerves; etc. There's tons on this forum to tap into but I really think you need a referral to a trainer in your area. 

T


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## Doug Wright 2 (Jul 24, 2011)

Terrasita,

I dont understand your point. I've either conceded or addressed my level of knowledge in a previous post. You're not trying to rub my nose in it are you?


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Doug Wright 2 said:


> Terrasita,
> 
> I dont understand your point. I've either conceded or addressed my level of knowledge in a previous post. You're not trying to rub my nose in it are you?


No, I'm having a hard time understanding where you are trying to go with this dog. There are two different posts with night and day differences in how you present the dog. Its like when you wrote the first post, you didn't understand the dog from the point of view from the second post??? I'll be the first to admit, I never did understand the need for "personal protection training." It certainly has its way of venturing into bad ass dog syndrome. I've reread post #1 and the best thing I see there is that the trainer concluded that he would start over. Shows a good sign. Thinking about what you've written it sounds like he started at the top with defense. Dog was weak/insecure [your description] so then he worked his way to prey and even the flirt pole and dog wanted nothing to do with him; which is probably consistent with what's been done with him. Who is it that says that regardless, when testing a new dog, start at the beginning; i.e. prey/flirt pole, etc. If you come across as not having the time or need for what they do, I don't know how long a Sch trainer/TD will stay interested/vested in your dog's training. Training every couple of weeks in anything doesn't get you very far. If you just want to train as a hobby, don't expect things to happen too quickly. I imagine, he'll be starting him as if he has had zero training and working his way up.

T


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

I might add that going back to good solid basics never hurt any dog no matter their current level.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Faisal Khan said:


> The stronger the dog the lesser the affect environment has on bite work. Some dogs do not care if you fly them to a different state, get off the plane and work them, they bite as if nothing changed. For some dogs it matters a lot and requires a careful/methodical approach.


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## Doug Wright 2 (Jul 24, 2011)

I see the disconnect. With my first trainer, I wanted to work every week. It was he that set the routine schedule of every two weeks. I knew that time frame was too long inbetween workout. I worked weekly with the second and will work weekly with my current. I work my dog every day whether its tugwork or OB. My comittment is there. 

Thanks.


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

Keith Jenkins said:


> My motto is dance with the one that brung ya!...Just try and be honest and realistic about what you have at the end of the lead.


+1. I also think it makes you a better trainer in the end as you have to work and tweak, and work, and problem solve, on and on.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Kevin Cyr said:


> brutal honesty is lacking in alot of trainers these days...


Honest is never brutal. Just a reflection of reality, which can be brutal. and still just someones opinion...

Good Luck.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> No, I'm having a hard time understanding where you are trying to go with this dog. There are two different posts with night and day differences in how you present the dog. Its like when you wrote the first post, you didn't understand the dog from the point of view from the second post??? I'll be the first to admit, I never did understand the need for "personal protection training." It certainly has its way of venturing into bad ass dog syndrome. I've reread post #1 and the best thing I see there is that the trainer concluded that he would start over. Shows a good sign. Thinking about what you've written it sounds like he started at the top with defense. Dog was weak/insecure [your description] so then he worked his way to prey and even the flirt pole and dog wanted nothing to do with him; which is probably consistent with what's been done with him. Who is it that says that regardless, when testing a new dog, start at the beginning; i.e. prey/flirt pole, etc. If you come across as not having the time or need for what they do, I don't know how long a Sch trainer/TD will stay interested/vested in your dog's training. Training every couple of weeks in anything doesn't get you very far. If you just want to train as a hobby, don't expect things to happen too quickly. I imagine, he'll be starting him as if he has had zero training and working his way up.
> 
> T


good training every two weeks is still good. bad training every day is still bad. no training is often better than bad training.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Doug Wright 2 said:


> I appreciate everyone taking an interest. I've read a shitload of your posts and respect your input greatly. I would have been back sooner but I needed some time to digest all of your input.
> 
> I want to introduce myself a little bit more than what you’ve may have read in my Intro or Bio thread.
> 
> ...


good luck at the club! I look forward to the feedback and hopefully they can help you sort your dog out!!!


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> good training every two weeks is still good. bad training every day is still bad. no training is often better than bad training.


For the most part agreed. I happen to work a breed where if you had two weeks between training sessions, most of them would spend the next session looking like you hadn't trained anything. Other breeds/dogs, you can pick up where you left off.

T


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

I would think you can learn a great deal at a sports club,it will not cost you near as much and the club people will be able to show you different dogs at different levels.
You will be amazed at what you see if there are some people with experience.
I was not so far of thinking you were paying dearly for bad training and no body was being honest.
I do not think i am being macho when i say what i said about a new dog,if your dog does not have the courage to go out there and bite the bad guy then* no amount of money* will be able to fix it.
In KNPV if the dog has the courage to bite it is potentially a good dog,handlers do not talk about different kinds of drive etc.If the dog bites you can deal with the rest,that is where real training comes in.
If the dog does not bite,out he goes!!!A three year old suitable dog,even green, will bite!
It is totally different if the family dog is being trained for something,i have seen dogs in training for ipo for over five years and still fail.Totally different scenario,but if you say you do not have time for sport dogs but are training with a trainer who is just taking your money and keeping you on a short leash ,it is about time someone is being honest to you.If your three year old ppd is not biting on a stranger or a strange field,you have to wake up and smell the roses.It could be all the wrong training but the writing is on the wall!
Go and enjoy your saturday at the club,you will learn a lot more about dogs in one day then all the time with a personal trainer.
I am not attacking you,i just hope you will be able to see you are on a road to nowhere with your current dog.Have fun.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

jack van strien said:


> I would think you can learn a great deal at a sports club,it will not cost you near as much and the club people will be able to show you different dogs at different levels.
> You will be amazed at what you see if there are some people with experience.
> I was not so far of thinking you were paying dearly for bad training and no body was being honest.
> I do not think i am being macho when i say what i said about a new dog,if your dog does not have the courage to go out there and bite the bad guy then* no amount of money* will be able to fix it.
> ...


if the dog is not merely being trained as an interesting hobby, and is expected to be effective as a PPD, I agree. If the role is a serious consideration..if the training is just being done to learn about training dogs and a hobby to do with the dog, that is something different.

I also might question the trainer that takes on a PPD dog for training at 3 yrs old, and tries to play tug with him, after the dog had previous training, but who knows how the dog really reacted, and what the guy was really doing with the dog exactly, or what kind of training was actually done with the dog.

courage and intent are pretty high up on the list for PPD in my book, intent should be to fukk somebody up, not play with them, if just doing bitework for fun, that is different.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Not all dogs are capable of doing bitework ... regardless of whether its sport or PPD or PSD whatever ... if he is 3 and not biting .. my guess is it aint happening. A good trainer could probably get him to bite but there still wont be a lot there. 

of course since I havent seen the dog I could be all wrong too...so take what I say with a grain of salt.


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## Doug Wright 2 (Jul 24, 2011)

I appreciate all the advice and good fortune. I agree that if the dog doesn't have it - he doesn't have it. You can't get blood out of a turnip. I just need an honest qualified trainer to tell me so. And up till now, I haven't had one tell me that. So I'm cool keeping the dog and down the road picking one up that is more suited for the work. Who knows, after a few weeks with a club, I may decide to do sport work. 

Hindsight is always 20/20. Could I go back and do things differently, I would. I would have selected a dog with a pedigree for this type of work. I would have joined a club. I certainly would have selected a better trainer. I've learned a lot. 

Let's see how this plays out. Worst case scenario: I have one hell of a deterrent. 

Peace


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Doug Wright 2 said:


> I appreciate all the advice and good fortune. I agree that if the dog doesn't have it - he doesn't have it. You can't get blood out of a turnip. I just need an honest qualified trainer to tell me so. And up till now, I haven't had one tell me that. So I'm cool keeping the dog and down the road picking one up that is more suited for the work. Who knows, after a few weeks with a club, I may decide to do sport work.
> 
> Hindsight is always 20/20. Could I go back and do things differently, I would. I would have selected a dog with a pedigree for this type of work. I would have joined a club. I certainly would have selected a better trainer. I've learned a lot.
> 
> ...


Doug you sure have a good attitude about it. Thats probably the main thing ... heck like you say worse case scenario if he doesnt work out .. still be a great pet and someone to growl at the boogie man


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## Doug Wright 2 (Jul 24, 2011)

For me, it’s all about putting things in their proper prospective. Isn’t there so much more in life to worry about. Not having a dog that would undoubtedly bite will not make me or break me. I have no axe to grind. I’ve been able to manage life without one for all my 48 years. I wanted a dog, more specifically a GSD. I got one. To date: He’s the best dog I’ve ever owned. I’ve trained him to pull off my socks (stinky), pick up anything dropped, and close doors. We have a game we play on rainy days where I hide his Frisbee or ball somewhere in the house and he has to go find it. He’s good at it. I hid his ball in my wife’s smelly candle cupboard and the little sucker found it. I was impressed! He can read my mind. In fact, we communicate more without speech than we do with it. He is a talker though, probably why he and the wifey get along so well. When I got the dog I wanted to make him all he could be. I think it’s ridiculous to have such an intelligent animal and not exploit its capabilities. I seen a potential need/use for a PPD and had him evaluated by two sources. One source said that he would be a good candidate for Schutzhund and the other said that there is a chance he may be a good PPD. I chose one over the other and I gave/giving it a shot. Hell, the dog is only 3 years old. I can move him into any other activity I want. Like kids, it’s good to have him participating in something instead of sitting in the back yard eating his own crap.

I’ll continue as planned for a few more weeks with this new trainer. If he gets the thumbs down, we’ll try something else. It’s that simple. He’s a joy to have and a great stress reliever. My day job is pretty consuming and he helps me decompress. Some people drink beer after work – I go play ball. 

I’ll provide an update for those interested after a few rounds with this new trainer.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Doug Wright 2 said:


> I appreciate all the advice and good fortune. I agree that if the dog doesn't have it - he doesn't have it. You can't get blood out of a turnip. I just need an honest qualified trainer to tell me so. And up till now, I haven't had one tell me that. So I'm cool keeping the dog and down the road picking one up that is more suited for the work. Who knows, after a few weeks with a club, I may decide to do sport work.
> 
> Hindsight is always 20/20. Could I go back and do things differently, I would. I would have selected a dog with a pedigree for this type of work. *I would have joined a club*. I certainly would have selected a better trainer. I've learned a lot.
> 
> ...


if your desire is to have a dog that will engage people for real, one thing I would suggest is to make that desire known when looking at people to train with. Many people training are not receptive to that idea, and nay not be willing to work towards that goal.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Faisal Khan said:


> The stronger the dog the lesser the affect environment has on bite work. Some dogs do not care if you fly them to a different state, get off the plane and work them, they bite as if nothing changed. For some dogs it matters a lot and requires a careful/methodical approach.


We used to work in a riding shed (horses) in the Winter and I was in a GSD club with my Briard. Our trainer advised us to bring the dogs into the riding shed and just walk them around. I did this to appease him but the only thing I worried about was when the helper afterwards positioned himself in front of an open horse box with the horse an interested onlooker. Without the helper I would have had to keep a vigil eye on the Briard - he would have gone for the horse otherwise.

What I did notice was that the GSDs, and there were a number of good dogs amongst them, mostly need the "walk around" first.

I wonder if this has something to do with the fact that a great number of sport dogs only get to experience the environments when it comes to tracking, etc. Sometimes they are kenneled during the day and come out in the evening to go to the club ground / riding shed.

The Briard was a strong dog as regards to environments and had a certain quiet dominance with other dogs with no fear in protection work but my elder GSD is not as strong but was stronger in protection work, i.e. his grips are better and the harder you tax him, the harder he comes back at you.


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## Sue DiCero (Sep 2, 2006)

Gillian Schuler said:


> We used to work in a riding shed (horses) in the Winter and I was in a GSD club with my Briard. Our trainer advised us to bring the dogs into the riding shed and just walk them around. I did this to appease him but the only thing I worried about was when the helper afterwards positioned himself in front of an open horse box with the horse an interested onlooker. Without the helper I would have had to keep a vigil eye on the Briard - he would have gone for the horse otherwise.
> 
> What I did notice was that the GSDs, and there were a number of good dogs amongst them, mostly need the "walk around" first.
> 
> ...


Very good point. It is amazing the number of dogs in the sport that people do not condition on a normal basis, whether stretching, warm up, running, jumping, etc. Kennel to car/crate to training and back.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I don't know how things work in protection over the pond obviously.

Elmar Mannes visited us once and as I had a Briard and not a GSD, I had to go last which gave me a great opportunity of watching how the "Master" worked.

He insisted that each handler come forth and describe his/her dog (there weren't many "hers"). The description of their dogs by the handlers ranged from "monster" to "killer" but wasn't backed up by the dogs themselves.

Finally, it was my turn and I told him "the dog wants to do more than he can". He was fascinated by him. He told me that the dog's expression was "what does the world cost - I'll buy it". I had watched what I had to do - stand still - hold the dog on a loose lead and don't influence him.

At the end of the day he said my dog was the only dog who obeyed it's handler and our trainer was speechless!! 

I didn't have a lot of highlights but that was one of them.


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## Jane Jean (Sep 18, 2009)

I've been around a couple Briards and would like to see them representing more in sports...not just the conformation ring. But....I don't like the fact that I cannot see their eyes, and wonder if the working dogs are trimmed up so they can see.
What is the point of the hair over the eyes?
Even for herding, you'd think having a clear view of the pasture would be beneficial... I was with one yesterday and made a braid of his forehead coat so I could see his eyes! 
I agree with you Sue, and always work on the conditioning, stretches(especially when temps are extreme hot or cold!): 


> It is amazing the number of dogs in the sport that people do not condition on a normal basis, whether stretching, warm up, running, jumping, etc. Kennel to car/crate to training and back.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I can understand you Jane. My dog had very "cheeky eyes". At the first trial, I held up his overlapping head hair with a rubber band so that he looked like a ...... can't say it as it is probably not politically correct.

Afterwards I cut his hair above his eyes. This hadn't any influence on his training.

I found a photograph of a Briard in year 1954 where the hair was about 2-3 inches long. It stands to reason that dogs that guarded the sheep didn't have such long hair as they have today.

To appease the breeder, I showed him once. I showed him in the utility class (which he won) and the run-off was with the winner of the open class. The dog in the open class won because he had wonderfully long hair.
The show judges are responsible for the downfall of the Briards. They are not interested in the dog's gait or temperament.


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Doug,I would really like to know about your day at the sportdogs.


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## Doug Wright 2 (Jul 24, 2011)

Jack - it was an incredible learning experience. It really wrapped up everything I've been told or informed here on this site an other media. There were about 15 dogs getting worked, each one at a time on skills ranging from puppy to SchzIII. 

The advanced dogs were remarkable to watch. Those dogs really hit home as I was able to see their natural ability and forwardness in protection. Each of the dogs had way more prey drive then my own. I was able to witness different training techniques that the helpers were using to pull what they wanted out of each dog. That was the part I was mostly impressed with. In the 2.5 years I've been working my dog in protection, I've never seen the skills and enthusiam I had witnessed here by the helpers. The club members were very friendly and informative not to mention supportive. Overall a valuable experience that everyone one should witness regardless of venue they train in. 

At the end, the helper told me to bring my dog out for a second look. As you know the first look went like poop. He started him out trying to get him to chase a tug on a rope. My dog wasn't having much of that. He's not a prey monster. My thought was that this was it, this dog wasn't going to cut it at all. He brought a sleeve and a whip to see what my dog would do. No whipping just alot of noise. My dog reacted and the helper did some aggitation allowing the dog to win the sleeve three times before I put him up to rest. This was the first of three mini-sessions. My dog did back up but I could see that the helper would shift his drive to pull him back out to the end of the line. Each of the subsequently aggitation sessions were better than the one before. We had a long discussion following regarding what I wanted to do with this dog, what he thought he may be able to help with and what he can't help with because the dog simply didn't have it in him. He's not going to be an over the top man eater. But he can be trained to occupy the intruder for a brief while. Really, couldn't expect more than that. I'm paying for a 4 session pak and have 3 left to evaluate whether or not to pursue this any further. I'm hoping he can increase my dogs confidence and intent. I'm thankful that someone has taken me under their preverbial wing and has helped me understand a lot about these dogs that I wasn't able to learn on my own. (you know who you are)

Over all, it was a priceless experience.

Thanks for asking.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Doug Wright 2 said:


> Jack - it was an incredible learning experience. It really wrapped up everything I've been told or informed here on this site an other media. There were about 15 dogs getting worked, each one at a time on skills ranging from puppy to SchzIII.
> 
> The advanced dogs were remarkable to watch. Those dogs really hit home as I was able to see their natural ability and forwardness in protection. Each of the dogs had way more prey drive then my own. I was able to witness different training techniques that the helpers were using to pull what they wanted out of each dog. That was the part I was mostly impressed with. In the 2.5 years I've been working my dog in protection, I've never seen the skills and enthusiam I had witnessed here by the helpers. The club members were very friendly and informative not to mention supportive. Overall a valuable experience that everyone one should witness regardless of venue they train in.
> 
> ...


Doug,

I'm curious. Will he chase a rag on the end of a flirt pole with you playing with him? I wonder if due to his prior training if he sees 'helper' and goes into a defense mode because that has been how he was trained. Maybe if you started working the prey side, he might work up to it. But then again, he's of an age when GSDs can go aloof and have no use for engaging strangers as well. Thanks for the update--very interesting to read.

T


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Doug,
> 
> I'm curious. Will he chase a rag on the end of a flirt pole with you playing with him? I wonder if due to his prior training if he sees 'helper' and goes into a defense mode because that has been how he was trained. Maybe if you started working the prey side, he might work up to it. But then again, he's of an age when GSDs can go aloof and have no use for engaging strangers as well. Thanks for the update--very interesting to read.
> 
> T


T.

If he's been worked in defense, it might be better to bring him up there to bite, then try and let him know it's a game. dogs that wont bite out of prey are brought along like this all the time. Sounds like the helper was doing that, letting him win the sleeve. 

My boxer wouldn't bite a toy until he saw threatened. then it just turned into a game after a while.


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## Doug Wright 2 (Jul 24, 2011)

He does indeed chase a tug-on-a-rope with me. He also goes nuts for balls, frisbees, reflections, and even a laser dot. He just wont do it for the helper. Terrisita, I think you may be on to something. He has never played or chased anything with any of his helpers in the past. I can see how this lack prey work has affected him now taht you mentioned it. Would you guys recommend that I do more prey than play at home?


I've attached two Vids

1) Dog chasing a tug (I was tired and lacking enthusiam)
2) Last mini-session with our new trainer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUPbjuGCt8I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9_EVW6MgdE


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> T.
> 
> If he's been worked in defense, it might be better to bring him up there to bite, then try and let him know it's a game. dogs that wont bite out of prey are brought along like this all the time. Sounds like the helper was doing that, letting him win the sleeve.
> 
> My boxer wouldn't bite a toy until he saw threatened. then it just turned into a game after a while.


 
I understand and sounds like he was setting up to go back and forth between the two. I always think of GSDs having pretty high object drive and that Doug might be able to show him the game. Doesn't mean he will play it with someone else though. I squashed my bouvs prey drive because of livestock. Then she was 3 1/2 I decided that it was the wrong thing to do--created a lot of prey conflict. So got it back with me and then asked a friend [Bob] to play with her to see if she would go into that state of mind with someone else and she did. Granted, her object drive doesn't come close for a typical GSD but she at least had some to tap into given what I had done with it.

T


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

T, I recall that day and also your surprise that I got her to work on the flirt pole since she had never done it before.
It's similar to how Thunder played tug with you just like he does with my grand kids. He just stood there and let the "little kid" do all the tugging and pulling. He still tries to pull my arm out of it's socket. 
They both read the weakness or intent in the person on the other end of the tug. :lol: :wink:


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

jack van strien;372770
I do not think i am being macho when i say what i said about a new dog said:


> no amount of money[/B] will be able to fix it.
> In KNPV if the dog has the courage to bite it is potentially a good dog,handlers do not talk about different kinds of drive etc.If the dog bites you can deal with the rest,that is where real training comes in.
> If the dog does not bite,out he goes!!!A three year old suitable dog,even green, will bite!


 I have to disagree with part of this statement. I have seen green dogs that did not bite worth a damn that with good training, a deep understanding of drives and temperament and some patience turned out to be super serious monsters. As a matter of fact, I think especially when it comes to high nerve GSD's still waters run deep. Some dogs that are very high nerve just do not see much of a threat. It has nothing to do with courage. These dogs take some special knowledge and patience, and proper provocation. Not to say this is the case with this particular dog, however. There is too much that we just don't know. There is a dog at our club (a little over age 3), that 6 months ago acted like a total dork when it came to bite-work. At times he would barely engage, drop the sleeve, not strike, etc. The handler was very frustrated and almost appeared ready to move on. LC kept saying wait. That dog is now is unrecognizable from the dog he was 6 months ago. Just a total monster. . 

On the other side of the spectrum, enough shit training can turn a great dog into a POS.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Steve, I agree with what you said. 

There are a lot of people that can't train a dog to be a monster unless the monster is in front of them already. Then there are dogs that can't be trained to be a monster. It goes back to the whole nature nurture thing. You have to be able to see both sides to help the dog be who he is and who you need him to be. Also have enough smarts to stop trying or change your tack when what you do doesn't work. 

There are enough threads on here that you can see some think a dog has it or not, and don't take into account good or bad training after the dog hit the floor coming out of mom. The same people will see a dog "with it" and assume the dog "has it" because of genetics vs. the training it's had for 18 months. Conversely if the dog "doesn't have it" it is genetics when it can in fact be bad training. 




Steve Burger said:


> I have to disagree with part of this statement. I have seen green dogs that did not bite worth a damn that with good training, a deep understanding of drives and temperament and some patience turned out to be super serious monsters. As a matter of fact, I think especially when it comes to high nerve GSD's still waters run deep. Some dogs that are very high nerve just do not see much of a threat. It has nothing to do with courage. These dogs take some special knowledge and patience, and proper provocation. Not to say this is the case with this particular dog, however. There is too much that we just don't know.
> 
> On the other side of the spectrum, enough shit training can turn a great dog into a POS.


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

Doug Wright 2 said:


> He does indeed chase a tug-on-a-rope with me. He also goes nuts for balls, frisbees, reflections, and even a laser dot. He just wont do it for the helper. Terrisita, I think you may be on to something. He has never played or chased anything with any of his helpers in the past. I can see how this lack prey work has affected him now taht you mentioned it. Would you guys recommend that I do more prey than play at home?
> 
> 
> I've attached two Vids
> ...


In the video with you doing tug work, i would wait until you get good direction.You are creating a shit pile of problems with technique in the way you engage the dog. 
In the video with the trainer, pat the dog when it is barking not when it stops.

Overall it is a decent dog. With good training you could do some things with him. .


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

Dave Colborn said:


> Steve, I agree with what you said.
> 
> There are a lot of people that can't train a dog to be a monster unless the monster is in front of them already. Then there are dogs that can't be trained to be a monster. It goes back to the whole nature nurture thing. You have to be able to see both sides to help the dog be who he is and who you need him to be. Also have enough smarts to stop trying or change your tack when what you do doesn't work.
> 
> There are enough threads on here that you can see some think a dog has it or not, and don't take into account good or bad training after the dog hit the floor coming out of mom. The same people will see a dog "with it" and assume the dog "has it" because of genetics vs. the training it's had for 18 months. Conversely if the dog "doesn't have it" it is genetics when it can in fact be bad training.


 Yes and that dog I am talking about had been at the club literally since birth. The handler has titled at least 2 or 3 dogs to Sch3, has been in the sport for 20 years and includes a placing as high as 12th at the USA nationals. The dog was bred by Lance, so he had seen the dog since day 1. The dog had been trained under LC for close to 3 years and he still said wait.

There is another dog (now retired), that appeared to be a very nervy and soft dog at 18 months. Trained in our system the dog qualified for the WUSV 3 times (once as an alternate and 2 times on the Canadian World Team). It had one of the most impressive attacks out of the back transport at the world championships the last time it competed.


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

Steve Burger said:


> In the video with you doing tug work, i would wait until you get good direction.You are creating a shit pile of problems with technique in the way you engage the dog.
> In the video with the trainer, pat the dog when it is barking not when it stops.
> 
> Overall it is a decent dog. With good training you could do some things with him. .


 Actually I would say that with what you have described so far it is probably a very good dog if he stil engages at all with the type of training he has had(really crappy from your description of his early work), and the obvious lack of foundation work (as evidenced by your lack of knowledge of proper tug work in the video). Good luck. PM me if you like I think I have a good suggestion for you if you are interested.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

thanks for posting the videos. There is nothing fun about this for the dog it appears (with the helper). 

That being said, I'd stick with this helper and see what he can do with the dog for a couple sessions as he carried the sleeve a little bit at the end at least, which would lead me to believe the dog might be conviced that he isn't being threatened all the time at some point. A day, a week or a few weeks, he may get there. Find out in your first few sessions if it is so ingrained either genetic or training that he won't work. Set goals with your trainer and define what "will work" is for you and a time line. Until you get him right, have a plan at the house that doesn't involve him for protection. always a good idea. 

As far as the tug work, you need to bring some heat for the dog, but you mentioned being tired so I think you kind of know that. Bring some fight. Then let him win, then fight, then let him win. Make it enjoyable but vigorous and short sessions. Withhold the toy sometimes. Bring him out, put him on a backtie and tease him. Put him away. 30 min later bring him out. do the same. Get him so frustrated that he wants to bite. That WILL transfer over into your bitework. When he realized if he shows some energy, he gets to bite. I'd leave the alone while you are working with your new helper though, unless he tells you to do it. In the end, you want the dog to bite and hold just because he's there and whatever to bite is there. For now, make it super fun in the dogs opinion and do what your helper says.

Good luck!!




Doug Wright 2 said:


> He does indeed chase a tug-on-a-rope with me. He also goes nuts for balls, frisbees, reflections, and even a laser dot. He just wont do it for the helper. Terrisita, I think you may be on to something. He has never played or chased anything with any of his helpers in the past. I can see how this lack prey work has affected him now taht you mentioned it. Would you guys recommend that I do more prey than play at home?
> 
> 
> I've attached two Vids
> ...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Doug, dog appears to have enough prey drive for guy to get it out of him, from your tug video you made. 

Just sharing my PM's to Doug about the video of the last mini session with decoy. Keep in mind that the video of Doug playing tug was not available as he just made that, and Doug said that the decoy attempted to work dog in prey but was not able to get it out of him, and that the goal is to increase the confidence of the dog.

Just sharing to see what others may think of what I said to Doug.. I of course did not include the PM's from Doug, did not have permission to post those and they are private. He also shared a few other videos with me , that I viewed and respsonded to that came before this last video of his bitework, including a couple of his early work, and one of a "home invasion" that did not look so good on video (the work, not the dog, the dog did engage and bite some, but was not rewarded by the "bad guy" very well at all.. I hav asked Doug via PM if I can share those other videos he sent..

here are the ones pertaining to the video shared here just recently, which he showed me last week...


> Like I said I am no super GURU or anything but will give my opinions on it, as I watch it. not after I watch the whole thing...
> 
> the first bite at 1:00.
> 
> ...


and



> most people, I know me included...if working a weaker dog in defense only will give 1-2-3 bites only in a session/day. if he can be stimulated in defense and channeled to prey more, then can do more each time with him..
> 
> in just defense..
> lots of acting and reacting, and if dog is seriously trying to bite in defense and does, you act like the dog ripped your arm off and let him chase you out of there...
> ...





> I only mention the prey guarding as a less stressful way to get more intensity out of the dog, using defensive mood without the dog being in fear for itself. if done right, it will have dog tapping defense more boldly, while also instilling more sense of prey/ownership of prey...
> 
> it can develop more prey in a mostly defensive dog, and aslo develop defense in a mostly prey, if that makes sense...I dont mean to say the dog is lacking in the guarding of the prey at all..(even though he may be) I was mentioning as a possibly more productive way to build the dogs confidence and intensity.
> 
> ...


and this morning



> Doug...can I share the home invasion video. If you did not mind, I would also like to share the PM's that I sent to you, (not the ones you sent to me...) to see what others might think of what I said to you, would be good, as then you could get some more input, based on how they tear down what I said to you, and if they think I am nuts LOL
> 
> also, the dog is not a super prey monster, but plenty prey there to work with. I would put dog on tie out, loose the string and hold the tug..frustrate him, .teach him to strike well and counter...glad you made that video, it shows a dog that can be worked and channeled..
> __________________


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Doug,nice to see the video,it helps to understand the dog more.
I am not going to tell you what to do but i can tell you what i would do with this dog.
I would give him a lot more vocal and physical support,hold him by his collar and really try to help him by touching hid side and letting him know you are there to help him.Do not yell or scream at the decoy but talk supportive to your dog.Not easy for me to explain how to do it but try to work as a team.
I would also tie a lead to the sleeve so the decoy can keep tension and if he can read the dog he can reel in or give more slack.
From what i see i think the dog has been forced to engage the man before and he is not really wanting to bring the fight but he can still be learned to win the game.
I would also let him watch other dogs and maybe group agitation would help him a lot.
Of course there is a lot more you can do but i think you took the right step to go to the club.
Good luck.


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Steve,i know what you mean but in this case i do not think i am wrong.
We were talking about a ppd first,a totally different venue.
A good decoy should be able to make a green dog bite if the dog has it(by nature)
If your life may depend on your dog he is either going to bite or he is being replaced.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Steve Burger said:


> Yes and that dog I am talking about had been at the club literally since birth. The handler has titled at least 2 or 3 dogs to Sch3, has been in the sport for 20 years and includes a placing as high as 12th at the USA nationals. The dog was bred by Lance, so he had seen the dog since day 1. The dog had been trained under LC for close to 3 years and he still said wait.
> 
> There is another dog (now retired), that appeared to be a very nervy and soft dog at 18 months. Trained in our system the dog qualified for the WUSV 3 times (once as an alternate and 2 times on the Canadian World Team). It had one of the most impressive attacks out of the back transport at the world championships the last time it competed.


So do you think those two dogs you mention, although at one time might have failed to bite would bite now with training? As in would serve as a pretty good personal protection dog?


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## Doug Wright 2 (Jul 24, 2011)

Joby - Feel free to post your IMs, the home intrusion vid, and the one from the his first trainer. I have a few more short ones but they are all from the same day workout. Please - all note the date on the video title. The one taken from Protrain was taken well over a year ago. Thanks for your instruction and insight. 

Its nice to hear that the dog is not wasted. I alwasys knoew that but couldn't get it acrossed. I think its easier to train a greeen dog that it is to fix a dog with engrained problems due to training whether is at home or on the field. I wish I had access to a repair trainer (lol). The tug video was taken rather quickly in response to Terrisita's question of whether or not the dog will chase a rag on a flirt pole - I improvised. This is by no means how we work the tug. I was trying to show that the dog would chase without being encouraged - thats all. With that said, I'm not beyond instruction and except it humbly. 

Thanks for the interest. I knew this dog was not a dud, but one that needs serious remedial training as do I.


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

Dave Colborn said:


> So do you think those two dogs you mention, although at one time might have failed to bite would bite now with training? As in would serve as a pretty good personal protection dog?


 I think it depends on what the criteria is for a PPD. If you wanted a dog that lights up at any sign of a remote possibility of a threat, then probably not. Too thick of nerve for that kind of alarm dog as far as the current young dog I was speaking of, perhaps. Actually I think I remember the handler mentioning before he came into his own that the dog would light up at home to outside noises so maybe he could be that as well. The other dog that went to the WUSV twice, he perhaps has enough of an edge to be that alarm dog. In terms of engaging a bad guy, of course. Either of those dogs would fill the bill. In LC's system it is primarily about the man not the sleeve. If it becomes about the sleeve then there is concerted effort to bring in balance to optimize fight drive. This could include using a suit, putting several sleeves on the ground while working a dog and if it goes for a sleeve it gets a correction, or several other responses. 

LC's comments about using a table for defesne work..."It does not work. It does not elicit a useful response that can be transferred onto the field. I know, I tried it". He also commented about visiting a club of some very successful world level IPO trainers. He said he noticed some very nice tables, that were not in use. He asked the trainers and they expressed the same sentiments.Using the tables failed to increase usable fight drive on the field. It elicits a situational response. He goes further to say that such defense drive is useless.


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

Doug Wright 2 said:


> Joby - Feel free to post your IMs, the home intrusion vid, and the one from the his first trainer. I have a few more short ones but they are all from the same day workout. Please - all note the date on the video title. The one taken from Protrain was taken well over a year ago. Thanks for your instruction and insight.
> 
> Its nice to hear that the dog is not wasted. I alwasys knoew that but couldn't get it acrossed. I think its easier to train a greeen dog that it is to fix a dog with engrained problems due to training whether is at home or on the field. I wish I had access to a repair trainer (lol). The tug video was taken rather quickly in response to Terrisita's question of whether or not the dog will chase a rag on a flirt pole - I improvised. This is by no means how we work the tug. I was trying to show that the dog would chase without being encouraged - thats all. With that said, I'm not beyond instruction and except it humbly.
> 
> Thanks for the interest. I knew this dog was not a dud, but one that needs serious remedial training as do I.


 Screw the flirt pole idea. I was talking about after the dog bit. It obviously needs several things. Tug work is only partly about prey drive development. Most important is to work on foundation skills, such as being active as opposed to reactive, the strike,grip, hold, carry, out, etc. I highly doubt that a person who subjected your dog to the early type work you described would be sophisticated enough to utilize those aspects of tug work.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

jack van strien said:


> Steve,i know what you mean but in this case i do not think i am wrong.
> We were talking about a ppd first,a totally different venue.
> A good decoy should be able to make a green dog bite if the dog has it(by nature)
> If your life may depend on your dog he is either going to bite or he is being replaced.


I know what you mean Jack. There is no excuse for a dog that has been trained by an experienced helper to have qualms about environment at 3 years. His "biting" instincts should block the other out. He should bite as though he is in a tunnel that leads to the helper.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I know what you mean Jack. There is no excuse for a dog that has been trained by an experienced helper to have qualms about environment at 3 years. His "biting" instincts should block the other out. He should bite as though he is in a tunnel that leads to the helper.


 
experienced helper. I agree.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Experienced helper - I have been thinking about this. This as it sounds is an experienced helper who has learned how to work a dog over the years.

What I am now thinking is - experience is one thing - a dominant helper is another. Experience can teach you how to handle the dog, even train it to a certain standard but, dominance from the helper which the dog learns to counteract will select the chaff from the wheat. The pressure put on the dog has actually nothing to do with experience, however much this is needed to be an experienced helper.


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Experienced helper - I have been thinking about this. This as it sounds is an experienced helper who has learned how to work a dog over the years.
> 
> What I am now thinking is - experience is one thing - a dominant helper is another. Experience can teach you how to handle the dog, even train it to a certain standard but, dominance from the helper which the dog learns to counteract will select the chaff from the wheat. The pressure put on the dog has actually nothing to do with experience, however much this is needed to be an experienced helper.


Yes, but often young helpers who can put pressure on a dog in trials, can be detrimental to the development of a young dog in training. The sleeve protects the arm. It is artificial. The dog bites, the dog even bites hard. If in training the helper does not give in then the dog starts looking for new solutions. Generally re-gripping and getting chewy. Either that or they learn just to hang on. This is the kind of helper work that leads to crappy grips or empty dogs who do not try to stop the helper. 

The main issue I had with the videos is the dog is not taught to pull, either with the tug or with the IPO helper. This dog needs a major buildup. Teaching him to pull should be the first order of business in the pursuit of building him up. 

The problem with watching a master work dogs day in and day out for years is you see the other kind of helper work and the problems it creates.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Steve Burger said:


> The problem with watching a master work dogs day in and day out for years is you see the other kind of helper work and the problems it creates.


There certainly are worse problems to have (grin). I'm glad you've had that experience but more so that you are willing to share what you have learned or may observe in others in order to give them a helping hand. Understandably, there's a few different ways to accomplish something but nevertheless I appreciate your contributions.


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## Doug Wright 2 (Jul 24, 2011)

If anyone can toss out a link to some good tug work, I'd love to see what it would look like. Youtube has so many. I know Michael Ellis has some dvds on the subject but after buying two vids from Leerburg, I'm a little dvd:ed out.


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## Doug Wright 2 (Jul 24, 2011)

Nevermind. I found some of Michael Ellis sharing his wisdom.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Watching videos is great but if you have a good helper, I'd take some lessons with him; especially if he has a good read on the dog in terms of how he views pressure, etc.

T


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## Doug Wright 2 (Jul 24, 2011)

Already have that planned. I have a list of topics to pick his brain about. Mostly ideas generated from this ginormus thread. If we're going to be successful with this dog, we have to be on the same page.

Thanks


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