# Blame where blame is due sometimes



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Over the years our dog sport has suffered. 

In Swiss National dog sports, handlers abused the "guarding an object" exercise by placing their wives' handbags before the church on Sunday and allowing their dogs to guard them.

There have been many incidents of handlers warning civilians not to touch their dogs as they would bite.

It's a pity we lost the "attack on handler", but I cannot comment on this.

Another point was that "real dogs" couldn't be contained without prong collar or e-collar.

I am not condoning any of the above but woiuld suggest that a lesser public awareness would have helped us.


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

Gillian,

I know that Americans are sometimes thought of as loud
and crude, and sometimes we are.

But we do have our good points, usually we are well behaved
at sporting events such as baseball or football. (American football)

But I have been involved in America for some 35 years,
and although I am sure bad things have happened, I can
not think of a single instance of such a thing.

I have seen some stupid things, like setting up protection
blinds in a public park, that is true. But not provocative things.

The people I know train on their own property or in appropriate
public places. I am personally a little bit private, live on 8 acres
and keep my dogs secure. I have double fences and cover so
that the dogs can not bark at people or horses going by.

Most of us are truly pretty careful to present a good image.

A lot of the bad publicity in America focuses on the Pit Bulls
and the dog fighting problem, and we are very aware of the
potential bad publicity if we became associated with such 
things.


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## David Baker (Aug 31, 2013)

well said Jim.


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

Some things in dogsports are also probably strange looking for a person not knowing anything about it, like stickhits in IPO. I know when IPO was introduced in sweden somewhere in the 90s the issue of stickhits came up for some reason, but what they did was to invite the politicans and showed what is what all about and obviously it went well because there were no action taken against it. If the public get a good image of protectionsports I suppose the opinion of it would also be good and less talk about forbidding this sport or change that rule etc.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

I agree with Gillian. In some ways part of the downfall of the dog sport/protection sport is due to the idiots that are found in every culture/country. Everywhere in the world, no exception made, there is always a small group of people that will boast and brag aboit how extremely dangerous their dog is... they do stupid things on the streets in order to enforce that idea and stand there with an attitude of " look at what my badass mofo dog can do." This creates a skewered picture of what dog sports is and or what trained dogs are. So often you hear about people being scared of a dog because its had training so it must be dangerous. To many fools get into sports only to be able to boast about it and to show off in public which gives the dog world a bad name in general. Its quite sad since the many sincere trainers and dog peopl out there suffer due to consequences of ignorance by the general public and loudmouth boastfull fools that make all dogsports.dogs come of as vicious and mean dogs.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Our club does public demonstrations every year at the local dog festival that is attended by thousands of people. I view it as a good thing. We also train on a city owned public field (more out of necessity than desire)


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Well, I can assure you, we are not lacking in providing publicity for the general public. We have Mondio presentations (easier to show as all done on one field). IPO and Swiss National Schutzhund is more difficult due to the three disciplines.

The police force and the army carry out demonstrations regularly. Nearly all breed and all breed clubs carry out 2-3 courses annually for a small price on how to train puppies and adult dogs. The club members do this voluntarily.

We lost the right to use the prong due to certain handlers (known to me) who boasted about having dogs that could only be trained with it. Then came the remote collar. The fences around the clubs get higher and higher and visitors are not welcomed. There is always someone with a personal grudge to denonce another handler.

*Jim Engel*, do you mean that the pit bulls are your only bad-assed dogs? I must disappoint you, I like Pit Bulls. Those that are brought up as any other pup should be brought up have never disgraced our puppy / dog classes.

It is a very sad fact that here in Switzerland our main opposition comes from within our realms more than from the general public.


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

I mean that in America very many people who have dogs
to show how long their penis is have Pit Bulls. It is the major
reason for the breed.

http://www.angelplace.net/pb/GentlePit.htm


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Jim Engel said:


> I mean that in America very many people who have dogs
> to show how long their penis is have Pit Bulls. It is the major
> reason for the breed.
> 
> http://www.angelplace.net/pb/GentlePit.htm


That and the wanna-be gangsters get them as a status thing


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## Jim Delbridge (Jan 27, 2010)

Another generalization from watching too much TV news. The "Pit Bull" has a really bad rap now, just like the Doberman did in the 70's, the Wolfdog had in the 90's, yada yada yada. The common element is not the breed but the owners that think.... Oh yea, the Airedale had a bad rap in the 60s...now the conformation breeders have pretty much ruined the breed going the other way to make it a cute fluffy cuddle bunny with no hunt drive.

1) They need a "bad ass" dog to protect themselves against the criminal element and find out the "bad ass" dog THEY created scares the crap out of them as well.

2) Any breed can be used by drug dealers as a stop gap against law enforcement. The pit bull is chosen a lot because of it's perception of high pain tolerance. Same drug dealers have also been known to own big cats, cane corsos, rottweilers, what ever looks mean regardless as to whether it is.

3) This is not simply a US phenomena. Our media just fixates on it.

No matter how civilized you show your dog to be, the general public will remember the movies with attack dogs, the werewolf movies, Cujo, etc. 

4) And, one of my favorites is when I got into a small tiny town with a part-time cop who has created his own apprehension dog. Your biggest enemy are those that create monsters and sell themselves as truly skilled and knowledgeable. It will be an on-going battle with the internet and the media. Just get used to it. Your dog could be the epitome of the civilized, well-mannered, obedient dog and someone would find something threatening about it simply because of their own fears.

jim delbridge


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## Jim Delbridge (Jan 27, 2010)

oh yea, scariest dog I ever met was on a river float trip where the wife and I canoed up to some 70's biker types enjoying a beer party on a sand bar. I noticed this one small dog and asked the owner, a burly no-nonsense fellow if it was a cross with a pit bull and a chihauhau. He said, "yes." I asked, "does it fear-bite the snot out of you on a regular basis." He then moan, "oh yea," and showed me the bite scars to prove it. This dog looked like the Arnold Schwarzenager of chihauhaus with a pissy attitude. I smiled sadly and said, "you have my sympathies. " 
He tossed me a beer and said, "thanks, it's the wife's dog."


true story,

Jim Delbridge

And, the only breed that I've ever been bitten by over 40 years with dogs and a vet clinic has been the chihauhau....nasty little fear biters created by well-meaning little old ladies.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Jim Delbridge said:


> Another generalization from watching too much TV news. The "Pit Bull" has a really bad rap now, just like the Doberman did in the 70's, the Wolfdog had in the 90's, yada yada yada. The common element is not the breed but the owners that think.... Oh yea, the Airedale had a bad rap in the 60s...now the conformation breeders have pretty much ruined the breed going the other way to make it a cute fluffy cuddle bunny with no hunt drive.
> 
> 1) They need a "bad ass" dog to protect themselves against the criminal element and find out the "bad ass" dog THEY created scares the crap out of them as well.
> 
> ...


Oh I know, but around here they tend to get pits. I'm not speaking from "watching the news" as I dont even have TV. Speaking from 34 years living here, growing up on the poor side of the tracks.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Jim Delbridge said:


> oh yea, scariest dog I ever met was on a river float trip where the wife and I canoed up to some 70's biker types enjoying a beer party on a sand bar. I noticed this one small dog and asked the owner, a burly no-nonsense fellow if it was a cross with a pit bull and a chihauhau. He said, "yes." I asked, "does it fear-bite the snot out of you on a regular basis." He then moan, "oh yea," and showed me the bite scars to prove it. This dog looked like the Arnold Schwarzenager of chihauhaus with a pissy attitude. I smiled sadly and said, "you have my sympathies. "
> He tossed me a beer and said, "thanks, it's the wife's dog."
> 
> 
> ...


I've had chihuahau's try to bite me lol. 2 of the 3 dogs that bit me outside of protection work unprovoked were dalmations


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

The neighborhood I moved out of almost 7 yrs ago was predominantly Pits, Pit mixes, Rotts and Am Bulldogs. Most of them on chains that could pull a freight train.
Where I live now it's Goldens, labs and foo foo dogs.
Where's the middle ground?
Both my daughters have chi dogs now. Both of the little bass plugs with feet are actually pretty well rounded dogs because that's what my daughters expect from a dog.


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## Jim Delbridge (Jan 27, 2010)

Like any mean dog, a fear-biting chihauhau is created not bred. I've watched the process many many times. The shaky little fearful dog is cradled in "mummy's" arms. It makes a fearful vocalization and mummy cooes and strokes it. Dog quickly learns that it gets rewarded for the fear response which builds into fear aggression.

Again, with any breed, chain it up to a tree or pipe hammered into the ground, it will become fear aggressive because it is trapped. Invade it's space and it will often attack because it feels it has no recourse. Let a child walk through that area and chances are the dog will bite it because it percieves a weaker threat. yet, the dog will be put down when the humans are at fault.

Since I often get sent into areas to search that might have loose dogs, I take my dogs on walks in lots of "risky areas" from bad suburban neighborhoods to the backwoods where the landowner creates a pack of 5 to 40-plus dogs that run loose on his land. Each area works on defined rules. I carry a pocket full of gravel and can back down even the largest pack with well placed rocks hitting the ground in front of their feet. My dogs have to go into a sit-stay behind me.

I do wish I still had my wolfdog with me as he had a CGC and was very well behaved but could make a loose dog charging us lose its bladder with a growl that was felt not heard due to the low bass tone. As we could never tell if it was legal for him to be with me, I always let those we met tell me his breed which ranged from deer hound to Akita to husky, etc. He's been dead some four years and yet, neighbors miles away still ask me if I have that huge black hound ranging on my land. I simply say he's moving a bit slower these days so we don't do our ten-mile walks anymore. Best crime prevention I've ever had.

My point is that the uneducated that watch dog sport that involves the sleeve and body suits only see themselves at the other end of the teeth. No matter how good a demo you show that demonstrates your control, they will see themselves as Magnum running from Zues and Apollo across your estate if you aren't around to rein in the "boys". With my first Airedale, every year she and I went to a Governor's Children Day and a Special Olympics state event to just expose people to the positive aspects of dogs. I'd let her air grown out to the fluffy winter stage and to them she appeared as a fluffy teddy bear. I could have her legs up and hold in place and people would still fear her because all the dogs in their neighborhoods were kept on chains in the front yard as deterrent. People are controlled by their fears. Politicians and the media use fear as their stock and trade.
I personally was rather impressed with her as invariably kids would pull her ears, slap the top of her head incessantly, and tug her fur with glee. Her response was always to look at me to ask me to get her out of the situation as quickly as possible which I would do as diplomatically as possible while trying to teach that such behavior could bother another dog.

My experience with loose pit bulls is that they only attack those they think they have a chance with. Act the prey and they might chance it. Act the predator and they give you a wide berth.

Jim Delbridge


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

My only major dog bite from a fear aggressive chihuahua. My hand swelled up like a balloon..lol blood all over the place. She lives hear now with the wife and growls at me everytime she sees me. Doesnt bite me though, we fixed that..lol.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Jim Engel said:


> I mean that in America very many people who have dogs
> to show how long their penis is have Pit Bulls. It is the major
> reason for the breed.
> 
> http://www.angelplace.net/pb/GentlePit.htm


How many Pit Bulls do you have over there? :lol:


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

Gillian Schuler said:


> How many Pit Bulls do you have over there? :lol:



More than enough.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Gillian Schuler said:


> How many Pit Bulls do you have over there? :lol:


pit and pit mixes are probably the most common type of dog I come across


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Not uncommon even in the "movin on up" neighborhood I'm in now. 
I think the red or blue bandannas on their necks may have a bit different meaning here though.


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## Frank Phillips (Jan 8, 2008)

Erik Berg said:


> Some things in dogsports are also probably strange looking for a person not knowing anything about it, like stickhits in IPO. I know when IPO was introduced in sweden somewhere in the 90s the issue of stickhits came up for some reason, but what they did was to invite the politicans and showed what is what all about and obviously it went well because there were no action taken against it. If the public get a good image of protectionsports I suppose the opinion of it would also be good and less talk about forbidding this sport or change that rule etc.


You hit the nail right on the head with this one Erik...Education is the key. I go to Sweden every year and do an IPO camp, and people are so against the e-collar. Then I put my E collar on them, stim the handler at the level that I stim my dog and suddenly they understand that it is not about frying the dog but a non personal communication with the dog. My dog does not freak out, vocalize, belly crawl or have conflict with me.

The problem in my opinion (being married to a Norwegian and training in Europe every year for more than 10 years) is that when the politicians/AR people stand up to ban Prongs and E-Collars (or stick hits or whatever else), instead of standing up and educating them on the proper use of training tools (or importance of stick hits), they agree and then use them behind the bushes anyway. This does nothing but admit that the training tools are abusive and the politicians/AR people are correct... One of the first years I did the camp, a handler stood up and proclaimed to everyone there "some of us play by the rules" loud and proud...Then he asked me to go down the dirt road and show him how to properly use a prong collar.....Abuse is Abuse Period!!! and has nothing to do with the training aids, it's about the individual trainer...People can abuse a dog with their hands, feet, choke collar, leash, whip, tree branch, pinch collar or E collar...It is about the person, not the training aid..... (Guns don't kill people, people kill people)


Just my opinion

Frank


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I agree with you absolutely.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Frank, I do understand and agree with your comments. The problems arises when some refuse to be shown how things work.
At my old Schutzhund club there was a car in the parking lot that was watching us. I walked up to him (old fart) and asked If I could help him. He started going off on me about hitting the dogs with sticks. I tried numerous times to invite him to the feild to have a better look and we could explain what was going on. All he kept saying was "I see what your doing to those dogs so there's nothing you can tell me to change my mind". "That's can be nothing more then abuse". 
Not to many ways to get around those folks.


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## Frank Phillips (Jan 8, 2008)

I agree with you Bob...You can't educate everyone. Some are just ignorant and do not want to understand. And unfortunately there is nothing you can do about those people. My only point was, in my opinion, it is better to "try" to educate and fight the uninformed than to submit and appear to agree that they are right....


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

of course there's no sense in trying to have a conversation with someone with a closed mind.

i realize this has nothing to do with dog sport legislation, but i have probably met at least 50 strangers in the past few years when i've been out with a dog either wearing a prong, Ecollar or a muzzle who changed their mindset about all these tools. and that does not include the customers i've worked with directly who had never considered their benefits.

to me that's all you can do, besides voting against stupid legislation and not supporting organizations that don't hold the same values as you do.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Frank Phillips said:


> I agree with you Bob...You can't educate everyone. Some are just ignorant and do not want to understand. And unfortunately there is nothing you can do about those people. My only point was, in my opinion, it is better to "try" to educate and fight the uninformed than to submit and appear to agree that they are right....



I do agree 100% in the need to try.
You can educate the ignorant but you can't fix stupid!


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## Gus Pineda (Jul 2, 2013)

I know an animal rights activist who has never even owned an animal. They pick-up a fight for the heck of it, they have no idea of what they are fighting for or against. 
By the way, the nastiest dog I've ever met was a golden retriever, poor dog was kenneled all its life and was all freaked up. It would bite anyone, no questions asked. Like someone mentioned earlier, the problem is not the dogs, it's the people that own them.


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