# First Litter



## Amy Hisaoka (May 3, 2012)

I'm planning on breeding my female SAR dog at the end of this year. She is 2 years old and comes from top of the line stock. I'm breeding her to a Czech male all titled up. Should produce some great, high drive working dogs. This is my first time breeding, but I'm under the guidance of my female's breeder. I'm also breeding to one of her studs. (unrelated to my female) I have two people already interested in pups.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

OK, whats the question????


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## Amy Hisaoka (May 3, 2012)

I guess there was no question there, but any breeding tips are appreciated! 

But now that I think about it, here are a couple questions. 

1. Is it usually the practice for the female to go up to the studs place?

2. about how long do they stay with the stud?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Hi, Amy,

The point was that we have a litter announcement section. It's an advertisement. 

http://www.workingdogforum.com/classifieds/index.php?cat=1


Please remove the thumbnail ads, if you would. You can attach them to your litter announcement.

Fools who do place and pay for ads become understandably irked when others embed them in posts. 

I understand you probably didn't know, so just letting you know.


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## Amy Hisaoka (May 3, 2012)

I wasn't posting to sell the pups, I was hoping for first time breeding advice. But I can remove the post if it's against the rules. I'm also not sure what you mean by thumbnail ads?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

You have pictures attached to your first post with photos of the dogs, and large type saying "Best Working European Lines on US Soil ...PLANNED BREEDING."

That's an ad.


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## Amy Hisaoka (May 3, 2012)

Ok, I looked and looked, but can't find where I can edit the post to delete the attachment??






_
Note: Done_


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## kenneth roth (Jul 29, 2010)

Health testing results?
HD,DCM,cardio,ED ?


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## Amy Hisaoka (May 3, 2012)

Thanks Connie- I'll put an ad in the litter announcement section, but I want to wait till they are bred first, in case she doesn't take. So, getting back to the breeding questions for a newbie....

Is it usually the standard for the female to go up to the male's kennel for a while and how long?

and any other advice on breeding is much appreciated. 


And before I get bashed for breeding, here is my "why". 
I love my SAR dog's drive and work ethic I get many compliments when people see her work. I would like a working male out of her, for use in cadaver work and also produce some nice high drive pups for the SAR or Schutzhund community. If the litter turns out well, I'd like to repeat the breeding and perhaps start my own kennel eventually.


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## Amy Hisaoka (May 3, 2012)

Her hips were done and came back normal/ fair, but I made a newbie mistake and x-rayed her a week after her heat cycle, so will repeat the OFA in September. (3 months past her heat) I contacted OFA and they said it would be advisable to re-do. One Orthopedic vet gave her a "Good" and the others just fair. 

I haven't done any other testing yet on my female, but am willing to do so, just need to find a vet in my area that can do that type of testing. 

The stud has been tested and is great. 
Here's his info: VG. Irvin Skocicka samota
UV, GHP1, SchH3, show VG selection KKUSH
HD/ED a’ Normal, 0/0, DNA


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## kenneth roth (Jul 29, 2010)

So he has great hips aka HD- A? Normal means nothing..1,2,3 or abcd etc;-) your bitch has HD- C


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## Amy Hisaoka (May 3, 2012)

Thanks for explaining...I found this rating on his pedigree database: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=550222

*HD-SV: HD a-normal (a1)*


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## Carmen van de Kamp (Apr 2, 2006)

Yes it's normal that you travel to the male. Don't know how far he is from you, but I would go for 2-3 matings with a day in between every mating. 

As for the hip results, my last female was xrayed during her heat and got a really nice A result.


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## Annamarie Somich (Jan 7, 2009)

Amy,

As a newbie breeder, some suggestions that I will make based on my learnings and mistakes:
1) find a vet who has a good reputation for reproduction. One that will hold your hand and not rush you into a csection, but one who will not wait too long if there is a problem. One who has experience and staff to handle a csection (takes alot of folks on board to handle all those pups all at once).
1.5) If your girl does need a csection, make sure it is a small incision and the vet knows that you will be working her after the pups. Make sure he knows that you plan to breed her again and it will be a natural delivery, so the uterus needs to be sewn up and tacked properly, the muscles stiched properly, etc. Many vets are just focused on saving the pups and don't remember to focus on the female - that you want to breed her again and that you want to have a long working career with her.
2) you can do all the progesterone testing you want, but the nose knows. The testing didn't tell me anything different from what my male did.
3) decide what you really need from the vet because it all adds up moneywise. do you really need progesterone, ultrasound, xray, etc. The nickel and dime'ing will quickly add up to $1000 before you even whelp. Unless you don't have extra time to travel to the stud or are doing ai, then the progesterone may not be needed. If she is a young female and doesn't have a history of not taking, you may not need the ultrasound. I really don't know if you need to do an xray if she is young either and she looks like she has alot of pups. The xrays are good to tell you if the pups are super large, which happens if the litter is small. Now if you have access to free or reduced vet services, then go for it. I unfortunately do not. So I save my money for whelping time, when I may need to take my girl in for xray to see wierd positioning, or if the cervix is dilating, etc. You can do progesterone testing to determine labor too. Now if you want a more exact due date, then do the progesterone and ultrasound that measures the size of the fetus so you can calculate ovulation and due date.
4) Dr. Hutchison phone consultation for repro issues is the best $50 bucks you will ever use. His second dvd on whelping is the best one out there http://www.northviewvet.com/index.html 
5) Set up live streaming video in your whelping room so you can use long distance mentors for help 
6)Study and know all of the warning signs for problems. Have a protocol, based on symptoms or lack of symptoms, set up with your vet. Get calcium, oxytocin, etc from your vet to have on hand.
7) Many females ovulate earlier than one would think. So until you know your girl's history, don't take a chance on the day 10 rule. So be ready to get busy right when she goes into heat. Don't think you have a week before having to travel.
8)the easiest thing may be to board your girl with the stud owner and let them share a kennel run together. I personally think that both dogs do need to do some bonding, especially if it is the female's first time.
9) Advertise and market your pups before the breeding. You need time for people to find out about your breeding, save their money and make plans. It is difficult to find working homes. Have a plan to sell to pet people because they will take the most of your time to check out and they have the highest return rate.
10)Have a plan if you don't sell all the pups by 8 weeks. Have individual crates, pens, etc set up to separate pups. Don't forget to isolate them so they will be able to handle a single dog home. Have people to help you get them out indiv for socialization.
11) Don't hover over the pups the first 4 weeks trying to figure out how they will turn out. You will be surprised how the little suckers will test out at 7 weeks. Save your energy and time for weeks 5 - 8.
12)Have your female's breeder and stud dog owner help you test the pups because they know the lines and the parents. Have your experienced club members and decoy help too.
13) take deposits on pups before whelping to make sure people are serious because they will talk alot about how it's a cool breeding and they want one and then back out when it comes time to show the money. You can always return the deposits.
14) stand strong to the criticism. Only people who breed understand what you will be going thru. It's real easy for bystanders to talk.


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## Annamarie Somich (Jan 7, 2009)

I'll add to the hip xray discussion. Make sure you have your girl's hips finalized. If they come back fair, then talk to other GSD folks and ask them about breeding her. Make sure you get the specific results about the stud - normal is not specific enough. Ask them would they buy a pup from these lines if the mother is ofa fair even if the sire is ofa excellent. Refer to Kadi's thread on verifying health and title results - you need to see a real paper certificate or see it in the ofa online database. You may have to find another stud. You may decide not to breed your girl if she is ofa fair. And don't forget about elbows and degenerative myelopathy.


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## Annamarie Somich (Jan 7, 2009)

I stand corrected. Irvin Skočická Samota the stud you want to use, has a SV hip score, not OFA. You would need to verify his score in the SV database. But be careful, even tho someone listed him in PD with a SV rating you don't know if his hips are really registered by the SV, or another registry. You have some questions to ask. The stud owner should supply the paperwork. And don't just stop at this stud, you need to have a backup in case anything happens.


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## Amy Hisaoka (May 3, 2012)

Annamarie-

Thanks for all the valuable info! I'll ask for the stud's paperwork on his SV hip/elbow rating. I was going to re-submit a new X-ray for my girl and if it is still just a fair, I'll re-evaluate breeding her. Becasue it was a borderline Good, I want to make sure. That would be a bummer, because everything else about her is a working dog handler's dream. I even have friends that are police dog handlers and they got the opportunity to watch her work. They said she would make an excellent police dog. She is clear headed, and is able to think for herself and yet is eager to do what her handler asks her to. She also loves kids and is not aggressive towards dogs or people. But she still patrols the property and lets us know if people approach. 

If you look up "Maile vom Banach" on PD, you will see her pedigree. I think the fair rating may have come from her mother's side. But most of her other lineage is A1.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Amy Hisaoka said:


> Annamarie-
> 
> Thanks for all the valuable info! I'll ask for the stud's paperwork on his SV hip/elbow rating. I was going to re-submit a new X-ray for my girl and if it is still just a fair, I'll re-evaluate breeding her. Becasue it was a borderline Good, I want to make sure. That would be a bummer, because everything else about her is a working dog handler's dream. I even have friends that are police dog handlers and they got the opportunity to watch her work. They said she would make an excellent police dog. She is clear headed, and is able to think for herself and yet is eager to do what her handler asks her to. She also loves kids and is not aggressive towards dogs or people. But she still patrols the property and lets us know if people approach.
> 
> If you look up "Maile vom Banach" on PD, you will see her pedigree. I think the fair rating may have come from her mother's side. But most of her other lineage is A1.


Important thing about hip ratings is to look at as much of the entire "families" of dog as you can...it is not really enough to just look at lineage in pedigree..

I bred an OFA excellent dog to and OFA good dog, and got 2 dysplastic pups out of 9 (that I know of)..one was severe, had to be put down at 8 months...only 6 of the litter were xrayed, so who knows...


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## Annamarie Somich (Jan 7, 2009)

From my understanding listening to my GSD breeder friends, you have to look at the whole picture concerning hips - you have to look at uncles, aunts, and siblings, etc. There are folks that know lines and how they mix like the back of their hands. Maybe they can privately pm you. Another good place for info is on pedigree database german shepherd forum.

If your girl is the only Fair amongst her relatives who are all Good or better, then some folks think that is better than one Excellent amongst a family of Fairs. 

Then you need to look at the details on your girl's hips. Is it just one side or both. What exactly gave it a certain rating and how bad is it really. 

I hear my GSD friends recommend current breedings where the dam is OFA Fair. So a fair rating is not the end of the world - you just make a very good stud decision.

The best thing you can do is to research breeding for good hips, research your girl's lines, research the stud's lines and breeding history. You make the best decision you can make and just take the dive.

Good luck!


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## Annamarie Somich (Jan 7, 2009)

I was typing my post the same time Joby was. Sorry Joby, I didn't mean to repeat what you said.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

I would expect to see video of the dogs performing in what ever venue they do. Videos can still lie, but EVERY litter is made up of the "best of the best", "extreme drive" and so on, but video is better than just pictures and descriptions. It would help me to decide if I would look further into a litter.

Some kind of hunt drive test in a new place....maybe some video of a negative search area (nothing is hidden, but dog is sent to search) 10 or so minutes into the search.


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## Amy Hisaoka (May 3, 2012)

Thanks for the replies. That gives me hope that this breeding may in fact work. One more question on line breeding. I did a pairing with the dam and the stud on PD, and it gave me these results:
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/para.utkoma?fadir=550222&modir=736731

I know it means they have similar ancestors, but do the numbers mean how far back in the line they are?


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## Amy Hisaoka (May 3, 2012)

I also found lots of video on youtube of the stud working. http://youtu.be/aGOlMfamh-U


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