# Alert vs. Interest



## julie allen

How important is alert compared to just showing interest? Regardless of venue, for any detection.

Recent case: a two year old grave was located. 6 feet deep, fertilizer put on top of the body, located on the banks of a river. Lots of sand, mud and vegetation in the area.
9 dogs "showed interest" approximately 2500 feet upriver and on an adjoining tributary river.
The thoughts on this from some teams is: the scent was leaches through the sand and dogs show interest in the water. 
No dog attempted to locate the source or follow scent out of the water.

Thoughts?


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## julie allen

The grave was not found by k9, but the murderer confessed. I was not on this area with my dogs so I can't tell what mine would have done.


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## Nicole Stark

This sounds interesting to me. Did you happen to receive feedback regarding your question via PMs?


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## Meg O'Donovan

It is interesting that dogs showed the interest upriver, rather than downriver. Were the dogs worked downriver from it at all? Was the tributary coming off up or downriver from the source?


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## Nicole Stark

Meg O'Donovan said:


> It is interesting that dogs showed the interest upriver, rather than downriver. Were the dogs worked downriver from it at all? Was the tributary coming off up or downriver from the source?


I thought about that as well Meg. But if the gravesite happened to be on the outer bend of a river where channels are often trenched and water levels are deeper, it is possible that with rising and lowering water levels as the bank became saturated it may have created an opportunity for the upward location of "interest" . Whatever that amounts to in terms of odor and source identification anyway. Perhaps it simply was the path of least resistance?

I really don't know, just speculating. But the lay of the land would be of interest to me and of course knowing the history of precipitation in the area would be of interest as well. I'd wonder about finds in areas that were previously flooded, perhaps there's a correlation between that and the why these dogs expressed interest in that specific area.


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## julie allen

I could email a map, can't post it for some reason.

Both river and tributary interest shown upriver. Nothing downriver.


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## julie allen

The river had both record high and low stages last year. From seeing this in person, path of least resistance, ground water flow (not factoring flooding) and drawing properties of moisture through sand, should be down the river bank, and downstream.


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## julie allen

No dog gave a final alert, but almost all "showed interest". I'm a stickler for an alert, but anyone who has handled hrd dogs know that's not always possible.


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## Sarah Platts

Hydrology is a funny animal. We have a hydrologist that my team uses when we get stuck with water stuff and when you read the reports they generate, it makes you want to smack your head and yell " Of Course it all makes sense - NOW!!!"
Rivers do have back currents that flow counter to the top or main flow. If the grave was on the deep side of the channel then this might be one of the variables of the answer. I don't pretend to understand it all there are also cross-currents. Worked a case on a very large river and a guy very familiar with the river also told me there were currents that went sideways from one side to the other which would be perpendicular to the downflow. They have had their dogs alert on the opposite side of the river ( a distance of several hundred yards) due to these cross currents.

Also what direction does the ground water flow in that area? It doesn't always flow into the river right next door. You would think it would but that's not always the case. What are the topographical drainage patterns? Water current drag creates a wind on the surface that moves opposite the direction of the flow. Could this be another scent variable?


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## Dave Colborn

Sounds like wishful thinking the dogs were on anything. I am a bit skeptical, though, so take what I say with a grain of salt. Also realize I am not passing judgment, it's just that I have heard a bunch of explanations for many things that detector dogs do and it usually boils down to excuses, something very simple that wasnt' thought of, or bad training. 

I'd ask a few questions:


How near to the same spot were all nine teams when they showed interest?
How many days between searches did all nine teams show interest?
Did the first team say "search here and see what you find"?
How do all nine dogs normally react on a two year old grave 2500 feet away?
What was found between 0-2500 feet in any direction that may have been source besides the grave? 
Do the dogs train together?
Do the dogs ever show false responses?
Do the dogs ever show fringe responses?
Do the handlers have a good grasp of when their dog is on other working dog odor?
Do the dogs search significantly different when there is other working dog odor present, IE training?
Has any mass hysteria ever occurred with these nine teams, or with a few of the teams?
Were all nine teams certified?
Did any teams search over the actual grave site without responding?
How did the search area get established in the first place, IE what brought the 9 teams to that area?


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## Nicole Stark

julie allen said:


> The river had both record high and low stages last year. From seeing this in person, path of least resistance, ground water flow (not factoring flooding) and drawing properties of moisture through sand, should be down the river bank, and downstream.


I would have thought so as well until I saw first hand what can occur during a flood. Water can back up in certain areas and flow in an opposite direction causing considerable pooling in other areas. I made this video for a different reason but if you move it forward to about 1:15 it will give you some idea of what made me question whether or not there may have been previous flooding in the area.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nm5ib2xLGw


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## Dave Colborn

On the interest vs. alert. Interest means a lot more to me than an alert. I want to see change of body posture, change of breathing, and an alert for an actual alert. But, most times in training and when working, a good handler will be able to call where it is from watching the dog and taking the environment into account just from the interest. Interest will also lead me to search an area in a more detailed fashion to give the dog the opportunity to respond or satisfy his curiosity and press on. The biggest help with this is running hundreds of unknown hides with a good trainer, learning your dogs behavior in the same context you have to know it when you work. with someone else hiding the target, not you.


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## Sarah Platts

Julie,

Sent you a PM. But here's some more factors after discussing it with some folks.

Speed of river: depth, meandering or not, flow rate, etc
Location (topographical features). Valley or mountainous channel vs flat land
Time of day when searches conducted
Wind direction and speed.
Tree canopy coverage
type of fertilizer used
Amount and type of flooding coverage
Drainage rate of flood water

Did the teams ever work down the distance to actual grave or get hung up in the one location? In other words, I have what appears to be odor in this location but I'm going to work up and down both banks of the river for 1/2 mile? Did the handlers each work it blind and that's where their dogs all led them to? Or was the area sectored up and all areas checked? 

Plus the questions Dave asked.


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## Sarah Platts

Nicole Stark said:


> . I made this video for a different reason but if you move it forward to about 1:15 it will give you some idea of what made me question whether or not there may have been previous flooding in the area.


How bad or difficult was it to get the porcupine quills out of that mastiff's mouth?


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## Nicole Stark

That time about 10 minutes. 

More recently, it took 2 hours and 5 people, and a visit to the vet that required sedation. When I took that video I thought she had treed a small bear . I had to climb up a hill to reach the dogs but it wasn't until I got to her that I realized what had happened. By that point, she had already been quilled and the porcupine was in the tree so I kept filming for a bit.


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## julie allen

If you google earth devils island Illinois, the land to the left of the small channel, on the main land is where the grave was, the dogs alerted in main river and small channel. I can email or text the marked map of alerts and grave location if you send email address or text it to anyone interested.


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## julie allen

Dave- I'm skeptical as well. 

I will assume during the flood water went both inland and drained from two small creeks, again down river, but I'm not sure.

When the area was searched water level was at record lows. Interest was shown from approximately 1000 feet upriver to 2500 ft. No alerts down river. 
After brief searches with one or two no interest, focused searching began on the channel where most interest was shown.

Unknown if these dogs have worked this type (depth, age) of graves. Unknown false alerts.

Since each handler stated they worked off of interest rather than alert, they all basically described fringing, but not one confirmed alert. Dogs never attempted to follow scent on land.
One k9 covered the land, no response shown. All should be comfortable working with multiple k9s. 

Different teams, so they don't routinely train together. Unsure of amount of source dogs usually train on. From my experience, not many trams have access to large source, or long term buried.

A witness reported suspect spotted in the area on a boat, dragged a large cooler up the bank to the woods the day after the murder. They were correct, except it was a garbage can not cooler.


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## Sarah Platts

Just throwing this out there...... What's the chance of there being a second body out there brought down by the flooding and hung up in the strainers or debris?


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## Nicole Stark

What whatever reason I am fascinated by this particular discussion. We'll probably never get an answer but still quite interesting.


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## julie allen

Sarah Platts said:


> Just throwing this out there...... What's the chance of there being a second body out there brought down by the flooding and hung up in the strainers or debris?


Actually quite likely. It's the Mississippi river. Lots of silt to be under as well.


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## julie allen

We searched many lakes, apartment complexes built during that time (her husband owned heavy machinery in construction) septic tanks, field sink holes filled in, etc. We never had any interest or alert. It's an interesting case. He had the hole dug the day before her death.


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## Nicole Stark

julie allen said:


> Actually quite likely. It's the Mississippi river. Lots of silt to be under as well.


In the picture you sent me, which direction did the current flow? North to South? Also how wide was that side shoot where the marks where where the dogs showed interest? It's odd to me that walking away doesn't appear to be a better option for people that commit these acts.


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## Nancy Jocoy

What about distance alerts (Deb Palman wrote a very nice article on that) and I would think a shallow fresh grave with fertilizer could put out the kind of odor that could transport.

Old graves..have they worked them? Old pre-civil war "slave" graves [typically shallower and no embalming] can have a surprisingly large scent pools. Take a more recent shallow grave with fertilizer which would accelerate decomp and it could be pretty large. No excuse for NOT working long term buried when old graves are available for the working!

We had a search where a teammate's dog went bonkers and she thought she was on the scent of the victim. It was a few unmaintained graves marked with a historic marker near the interstate in the woods. Late 1700s, early 1800s.

Working out a grave takes some patience and experience for the dog. I would be skeptical of stuff washing upstream because I would guess anything moving in the water would probably rapidly decompose and the scent dissipate. Now downhill, sure, because the uphill source is constantly "feeding" it.

You also got to figure sometimes there's other bodies out there....Old graves, Native American's etc. The dogs are sensitive.

Were the handlers accustomed to swamp gas? That looks like a major flood plain. Sometimes dogs not used to it will indicate on it. I was called to confirm a "find" that way and my dog gave nothing. Victim was found alive a few hours later about a mile away.

How far apart in time did the horde of handlers work the area? Did they know the results of the other handlers (hope not).

Why did NINE teams work the same area? 

Just some questions.


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## Nancy Jocoy

Edit - I used the word shallow grave but there is nothing shallow about 6 feet. Obvously though if the soil is sandy odor would percolate out quite nicely.


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## Nancy Jocoy

Ok I got the article. It is a worthwhile read regardless. Have seen it come true in real life on a one of our HR searches and the remains were skeletonized..the "5 miles" statement was from a powerpoint presentation by her on the same topic.

http://emainehosting.com/mesard/pdf_documents/Distant Alerts.pdf


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## Sarah Platts

Julie,

Got the map. Thanks. I'm assuming the burial location was at the top (north) end of the island. If this is wrong correct me. Question: is that a bridge or a low level earthen berm across that section between the mainland and island? Was water flowing at the time of the search? what direction does the water flow in that tributary? North or South?


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## Sarah Platts

Finally, figured out the map. The burial was not on the island at all which is what was throwing my orientation off. The site is actually on the mainland and that tributary flows south at that point and the island is the land mass above. That other item doesn't appear to be a bridge but an earthen berm or an old levee used to prevent backflow based on some older google earth scenes where it looks like water is spilling over it. 

what were the climatic conditions at the time of the search?


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## julie allen

Nancy, my first thought was methane given the large area and spread out interest. These handlers and dogs should know this however.

I'm not sure why nine dogs were brought in, maybe since they never could pinpoint source they kept trying is my best guess.

Still waiting on wind direction/speed, BP and temps.


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## julie allen

Sarah Platts said:


> Finally, figured out the map. The burial was not on the island at all which is what was throwing my orientation off. The site is actually on the mainland and that tributary flows south at that point and the island is the land mass above. That other item doesn't appear to be a bridge but an earthen berm or an old levee used to prevent backflow based on some older google earth scenes where it looks like water is spilling over it.
> 
> what were the climatic conditions at the time of the search?


I believe the focus was on the island rather than the opposite land mass. That is an old levee, the water flows south here. It's more of a slew in southern terms. Slow to little movement when low and swampy.


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## Jeff McMahon

Hi Julie,

I'm fairly new here, and my area of expertise is scent detection for sport (K9 Nose Work), but I thought I might add some questions and observations to the thread.

1) did the grave get located because of the dogs showing interest nearby (granted 2500ft is not really nearby)?

2) When you say 'dogs showed interest... no dog attempted to locate source', does this mean the dogs were allowed to search for a while where they showed interest and no dog attempted to work scent closer to source, or do you mean after dogs showed interest 2500ft away, dogs were taken closer to (or sometimes needs to be further away from) the location of the grave and no dog showed interest at the source?

Sounds to me like a super puzzle for handlers/trainers to replicate and figure out how to help dogs gain the experience to solve this puzzle and others like it. If the dogs showed interest, it likely means there's scent that in some way could lead to source. Kind of like an elevated source that scent might be drifting far away from and in broken trails. Dogs seem to need to experience certain problems specifically in order to advance their general scenting skills.

Sorry if this doesn't help advance the thread.

Jeff McMahon



julie allen said:


> How important is alert compared to just showing interest? Regardless of venue, for any detection.
> 
> Recent case: a two year old grave was located. 6 feet deep, fertilizer put on top of the body, located on the banks of a river. Lots of sand, mud and vegetation in the area.
> 9 dogs "showed interest" approximately 2500 feet upriver and on an adjoining tributary river.
> The thoughts on this from some teams is: the scent was leaches through the sand and dogs show interest in the water.
> No dog attempted to locate the source or follow scent out of the water.
> 
> Thoughts?


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## John-Ashley Hill

To answer the question that you put forth, obviously an alert is ideal. Especially, in any detection work that is part of a criminal investigation. However, in my opinion if you can read and articulate the change of behavior (interest) and this type of behavior is documented in training records as well as the results then I would and have, proceed the same as if it were an alert. I have seen some very high drive dogs do this because they could not get close enough to source to satisfy themselves and they kept working and trying to figure out how to get closer. Although, my experience is narc detection which is obviously different from the scenario that you are desribing.


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## Matthew Grubb

Dave hit it on the head..... the ALERT is all of the physical changes you see in your dog telling you he has located odor... the head hook, the change in breathing, the sudden spinning of the tail, and the big one that most dogs do right at source... the quick little lick of the nose. These are all physical changes the dog can't hide or more importantly can't fake. It takes time to truly learn your dogs alert. The TRAINED FINAL RESPONSE be it a sit, stand, whatever, is to me, a crutch that we put too much reliance in....it will bite us in the a$$ if we don't learn to truly read our dog.


Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 4 Beta


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## David Winners

Matthew Grubb said:


> Dave hit it on the head..... the ALERT is all of the physical changes you see in your dog telling you he has located odor... the head hook, the change in breathing, the sudden spinning of the tail, and the big one that most dogs do right at source... the quick little lick of the nose. These are all physical changes the dog can't hide or more importantly can't fake. It takes time to truly learn your dogs alert. The TRAINED FINAL RESPONSE be it a sit, stand, whatever, is to me, a crutch that we put too much reliance in....it will bite us in the a$$ if we don't learn to truly read our dog.
> 
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 4 Beta



In my school of verbiage, the physical changes seen in the dog when it initially detects odor are called the change of behavior (COB), and the trained final response is called the alert. 

Just stating this to negate any confusion in previous posts of mine, not to contradict you in any way.


I completely agree that every handler should be able to call out the change in physical behavior in their dog the moment it happens.


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## Nancy Jocoy

Terminology aside (which is important) it really is clear that what we being reported was the dogs were picking up odor a half mile away. 

Perfectly plausible. This was a full body corpse in porous sandy soil. Seen it in cadaver searches we have done at a quarter mile with fully skeletonized remains. The article by Palman explains it. You typically don't see this unless the odor source has been in one place for a good while.

We quit trying to over analyze odor cues and simply expand the search from the odor cues we did have. Unfortunately, that kind of time is not a luxury most police have (and you want them with you on a criminal search), and there is a limit to volunteer resources


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## Dave Colborn

I have seen dogs do amazing things. I believe there is something else going on here, though. Although we can't tell where odor goes, because we can't see it, I don't believe nine dogs would respond like this unless something else were going on. IE one of the dog would work to source or closer or find a different pocket, or a dog would respond above the grave since it was verified that the dogs did search the area. To me this is hysteria created after the fact as an excuse for not finding source while someone else clearly did (after dogs searched the area and did not). People need to stand up for their dogs and explain they aren't machines and aren't perfect. If a miss isn't acceptable to a handler then the handler needs to find a new job. It happens and does affect people that you are searching for if you can't be honest.

Does anyone have video of a cadaver dog working odor a half mile away on an old grave? I would think it would be pretty common with indian and pioneer burials and the broad expanse that cadaver dogs must be worked in....

documentation in records? anything? half mile, dog worked to source?



Nancy Jocoy said:


> Terminology aside (which is important) it really is clear that what we being reported was the dogs were picking up odor a half mile away.
> 
> Perfectly plausible. This was a full body corpse in porous sandy soil. Seen it in cadaver searches we have done at a quarter mile with fully skeletonized remains. The article by Palman explains it. You typically don't see this unless the odor source has been in one place for a good while.
> 
> We quit trying to over analyze odor cues and simply expand the search from the odor cues we did have. Unfortunately, that kind of time is not a luxury most police have (and you want them with you on a criminal search), and there is a limit to volunteer resources


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## Sarah Platts

Dave Colborn said:


> Does anyone have video of a cadaver dog working odor a half mile away on an old grave? I would think it would be pretty common with indian and pioneer burials and the broad expanse that cadaver dogs must be worked in....
> documentation in records? anything? half mile, dog worked to source?


I've had two situations that came up both on searches. One was several years ago where they said the guy was dead in this nasty overgrown field. Worked the dog off-lead but got a body change and definite odor behavior so I just started to follow the dog. Dog worked across the field to a drainage ditch by the edge of a road, up the drainage ditch for quite some distance until we got to this embankment. Dog stops. I'm thinking WTH until I pop my head up over the embankment and, gee, there's a really big graveyard there.

Next time was an urban/suburban search and we are looking for a possible body hide in some old abandoned buildings. Dog's working in harness on a long lead. I'm getting nothing on these buildings but suddenly the dog raises his head, drops it back down and starts trailing out of the area. The behavior is strong and he's pulling into a headwind so we opt to just let the dog go. He zig-zags up these streets, correcting himself at various turns to keep heading southeast and he ends up at a fence by a school. Get him around the fence and off he goes again. Long story short, we ended up over 1/2 mile away at a small graveyard. I thought it was just an open field until the dog stops near the first set of in-ground markers and gives his alert. Told the detective that there wasn't any dead bodies back there but we got a whole bunch of dead ones up here. Everyone got a good laugh over it. No video with this, just the GPS track.


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## julie allen

Jeff McMahon said:


> Hi Julie,
> 
> I'm fairly new here, and my area of expertise is scent detection for sport (K9 Nose Work), but I thought I might add some questions and observations to the thread.
> 
> 1) did the grave get located because of the dogs showing interest nearby (granted 2500ft is not really nearby)?
> 
> 2) When you say 'dogs showed interest... no dog attempted to locate source', does this mean the dogs were allowed to search for a while where they showed interest and no dog attempted to work scent closer to source, or do you mean after dogs showed interest 2500ft away, dogs were taken closer to (or sometimes needs to be further away from) the location of the grave and no dog showed interest at the source?
> 
> Sounds to me like a super puzzle for handlers/trainers to replicate and figure out how to help dogs gain the experience to solve this puzzle and others like it. If the dogs showed interest, it likely means there's scent that in some way could lead to source. Kind of like an elevated source that scent might be drifting far away from and in broken trails. Dogs seem to need to experience certain problems specifically in order to advance their general scenting skills.
> 
> Sorry if this doesn't help advance the thread.
> 
> Jeff McMahon


The body was found when the husband confessed and showed investigators where he buried her. He figured they would find her, so he offered a plea bargain. 

No dog went any further than the channel, when they searched land they had no interest. I believe they had tunnel vision here, and focused remaining searches on the channel.

I was present for part of the ground search (in between where dogs alerted in channel and the grave) and watched one k9 work with no interest at all.

I am not convinced the dogs were alerting on her remains. I have worked with several teams, and my own dogs near cemeteries, and have never seen them follow an odor for a long distance. It's pretty hard to find an area here in the south that doesn't have an old cemetery within a couple miles of anywhere. Nearly every old church has one, then main cemeteries, family burial grounds.

Now if odor is present, say weather is right, wind, etc, I don't believe there isalimit as far as distance goes. In this case , I don't see the odor from that grave going where the dogs indicated. Doesn't mean I'm right lol, I just don't believe that's what's going on.


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## Dave Colborn

Sarah Platts said:


> I've had two situations that came up both on searches. One was several years ago where they said the guy was dead in this nasty overgrown field. Worked the dog off-lead but got a body change and definite odor behavior so I just started to follow the dog. Dog worked across the field to a drainage ditch by the edge of a road, up the drainage ditch for quite some distance until we got to this embankment. Dog stops. I'm thinking WTH until I pop my head up over the embankment and, gee, there's a really big graveyard there..


Did you find the guy?



Sarah Platts said:


> Next time was an urban/suburban search and we are looking for a possible body hide in some old abandoned buildings. Dog's working in harness on a long lead. I'm getting nothing on these buildings but suddenly the dog raises his head, drops it back down and starts trailing out of the area. The behavior is strong and he's pulling into a headwind so we opt to just let the dog go. He zig-zags up these streets, correcting himself at various turns to keep heading southeast and he ends up at a fence by a school. Get him around the fence and off he goes again. Long story short, we ended up over 1/2 mile away at a small graveyard. I thought it was just an open field until the dog stops near the first set of in-ground markers and gives his alert. Told the detective that there wasn't any dead bodies back there but we got a whole bunch of dead ones up here. Everyone got a good laugh over it. No video with this, just the GPS track.


Trailing as in ground disturbance and human odor? Or air scenting?

The thing with odor and dogs is that we can't prove or disprove this. I used to have guys say the dog was alerting on something and be so sure of it it made them mad that there wasn't anything close (bomb dogs) I'd always check the wind and see if it was blowing in a few miles from the ASP (ammo supply point).


Dogs are fantastic in reality. What makes them really fantastic is being skeptical and pushing their training harder.


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## David Winners

Dave Colborn said:


> Did you find the guy?
> 
> 
> 
> Trailing as in ground disturbance and human odor? Or air scenting?
> 
> The thing with odor and dogs is that we can't prove or disprove this. I used to have guys say the dog was alerting on something and be so sure of it it made them mad that there wasn't anything close (bomb dogs) I'd always check the wind and see if it was blowing in a few miles from the ASP (ammo supply point).
> 
> 
> Dogs are fantastic in reality. What makes them really fantastic is being skeptical and pushing their training harder.



Just wondering, if you were someplace with an ASP, you were down range, unless your branch calls ammo holding areas ASPs. How do you know they weren't responding to UXO? We found several in training when dogs would throw a COB and bracket out of the set training area, and of course the presence of the UXO was unbeknownst to the trainer at the time.


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## Dave Colborn

David Winners said:


> Just wondering, if you were someplace with an ASP, you were down range, unless your branch calls ammo holding areas ASPs. How do you know they weren't responding to UXO? We found several in training when dogs would throw a COB and bracket out of the set training area, and of course the presence of the UXO was unbeknownst to the trainer at the time.


Most places I have been stationed have had an ASP. I was not down range.


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## David Winners

Dave Colborn said:


> Most places I have been stationed have had an ASP. I was not down range.


Thanks Dave. 

I agree. Dogs are amazing, and a great COB followed by a long bracket to final is magic to me!


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## Sarah Platts

Dave Colborn said:


> Did you find the guy?


We didn't find him dead. And when we put the dogs on live scent (they are mantrailers, too) the dogs trailed out of the area, down a road, and went to the on-ramp of the local interstate. Told the cops something was hinky with the situation as it was being presented to us. Come to find out he and the wife faked the missing person/possibly dead report to skip out of town ahead of a pending court case. The detective confirmed the dogs' exit trail to the interstate after an investigation.




Dave Colborn said:


> Trailing as in ground disturbance and human odor? Or air scenting?
> The thing with odor and dogs is that we can't prove or disprove this. I used to have guys say the dog was alerting on something and be so sure of it it made them mad that there wasn't anything close (bomb dogs) I'd always check the wind and see if it was blowing in a few miles from the ASP (ammo supply point).
> 
> Dogs are fantastic in reality. What makes them really fantastic is being skeptical and pushing their training harder.


Because of the headwind, I have to believe it was mostly airscenting but my dogs don't work nose to the ground like a tracker. They start out that way but eventually move up to a bobbing-head neutral position. Because the dog threw up his head, that was my first clue of fresher airscent. But the head carriage and manner of working was typical trailing for him. When he took off out of the area, everyone was asking me if I had scented him on the missing woman but I didn't have a scent artiicle for her yet so he was working on his cadaver command. We let him go because 2 weeks prior a patrol officer had reported a foul smell in a 2-3 block radius in the area we were at. The graveyard was a complete surprise to me.


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## Sarah Platts

Dave Colborn said:


> Dogs are fantastic in reality. What makes them really fantastic is being skeptical and pushing their training harder.


I agree with this which is why I like to work the dog so that they have to make conscious decisions. Mantrailing gives you lots of opportunities to play with human scent.


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