# muzzle work



## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

http://www.dailymotion.com/relevanc...E/video/x2uny8_impacts-frappe-muselee_animals

comments, thoughts, opinions?


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

Teaching the dog to target the head is just dumb!


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Matthew Grubb said:


> Teaching the dog to target the head is just dumb!


my thoughts while watching the video was that some of the dogs had too much muzzle work. some had no intention of biting and were simply throwing body blocks...


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## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

The french have been training this way for ages.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Be a good SWAT tactic.

DFrost


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## Will Kline (Jan 10, 2008)

I can only imagine what some good civil defense attorney would do if he were to get ahold of the video in which the dog was trained to target the face. #-o


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## Kris Finison (Nov 26, 2007)

David Frost said:


> Be a good SWAT tactic.
> 
> DFrost


Exactly. 
Agree with it or not, but there are dogs that are trained for a SPORT and then there are some dogs that are trained for a JOB. Simple as that.


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## Kristina Senter (Apr 4, 2006)

They are training this way in a few places in Europe as an alternative to a bite. The dogs are sent muzzled because the depts don't want to be sued for the bites so they use to dog as a battering ram. 

Thats great and all untill ...
A) A muzzle comes off accidentally (I'd love to see you "disagree or not" to a judge anywhere in the US as you describe why your new improved training caused your dog to rip someones lower jaw off and rendered them blind).
B) They have a situation that calls for more than a battering ram in which they need the dog to bite and come to the realization that their dogs' training has rendered it useless for being sent on a bite or defending it's handler. 
C) Any handler is caught off guard (on or off duty) when the dog is unmuzzled and the dept gets to pay 15 times more in the law suit that requires reconstructive plasic surgery to someones face. 
D) "Bad guy" realizes the dog cant bite him and picks the defenseless dog up by the collar. 
E) The dept is still sued because the dog caused a concussion, detached retina, broken jaw, broken nose, or whatever. 
F) Ahh....who needs an "out"? He'll always be muzzled, right? 

I'm sure there are more reasons...


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I'm not convinced they were training the dogs to specifically target the face. Quite a few of those hits were actually in the chest area, in some the dog bounced up from the chest and into the face. Which makes sense, considering the upward/forward momentum of the dog wasn't stopped by it a bite. 

Cali is an upper body biter, but not a scary one that ends up on the cuff around the neck, she targets PSA style, or dead center in the chest, or she'll take an arm depending on what the decoy is doing. In a muzzle though she has hit a couple of people in the face. Not because she was targeting that, but because she hit lower and bounced up, or because she was trying to hit with her entire body. 

This also appears to be a collection of "cool hits", a hit in the leg or side isn't as "impressive" looking as all these really high hits.


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## Kristina Senter (Apr 4, 2006)

I'll look for the link but I read in a French article that they were teaching the dogs to deliberately target the head. I'm not sure about whoever originated this video or whether thats what they are all teaching, but I know it's being done. Their goal was for the dogs to knock the person down (and possibly out) and keep them on the ground.


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## Bryan Colletti (Feb 16, 2007)

This is a purposeful attack without a bite. My friend teaches his dogs this as well. I have no need for it. But it WORKS. The dog will knock you out like a boxer. They punch!

Bryan


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Bryan Colletti said:


> This is a purposeful attack without a bite. My friend teaches his dogs this as well. I have no need for it. But it WORKS. The dog will knock you out like a boxer. They punch!
> 
> Bryan


i agree. i too, have no use for it.

the Dutch police train their terrorist intervention dogs to target the face. they also referred to them as "SWAT Plus" dog (basically they have 3 levels of dogs, the patrol dog, the SWAT dog, and the SWAT plus dog). they have a very specific purpose. i was fortunate enough to take one of these dogs in a neat little demo they set up for us. big ole dutchie. they lined three of us up against a wall. we were about 20 feet away from each other. the handler brought the dog up about 50 feet away from the middle guy. the handler pointed a laser at the decoy he wanted the dog to target and bam, the dog was sent. fortunately it was on a slick floor and the dog wasn't able to get up a full head of steam or launch. still ended up punching me pretty damn good in my upper side rib area (i bailed out and turned to the side).


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## Kristina Senter (Apr 4, 2006)

I just want to clarify...I think muzzle work is awesome as a training, testing and deployment tool and absolutely has a beneficial application. 
My only objection is that some agencies are apparently teaching the dog to target the head (creating dogs who can ONLY be deployed when muzzled) and IMO, it's dumb, worthless and dangerous. 

Tim, so the dog targets the lazer pointer? What happens is the perp is out of sight?


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Kristina Senter said:


> Tim, so the dog targets the lazer pointer? What happens is the perp is out of sight?


i'm not entirely sure kristina. i believe that particular type of dog wouldn't be used. again, they have a very specific purpose. they don't use their SWAT dogs to search. they use them to chew...


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## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

Correct Kristina. Primarily they teach this method for unruly crowds


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Phil Dodson said:


> Correct Kristina. Primarily they teach this method for unruly crowds


not true. they don't use the terrorist intervention dogs for crowd control. that would be a standard patrol dog. the patrol dogs don't use the laser pointer targeting method.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I guess it would make sense if you are in an area that has become so PC they have banned the dogs biting anyone. At that point you are going to have to make your non-biting dogs as effective as possible. 

I do think with proper training the dogs could target differently if deployed with a muzzle vs without. With my leg biting dogs, when doing muzzle work we teach them to target upper body, but they still bite legs when sent for a bite.


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## Will Kline (Jan 10, 2008)

> Agree with it or not, but there are dogs that are trained for a SPORT and then there are some dogs that are trained for a JOB. Simple as that.


Kris, I cannot agree with you and here is why:
1. Not all SWAT missions are to go in and take out the perp. There are many that you get dispatched to that require you only apprehend the suspect and not cause greivous bodily injury to in the process. Even the "suicide by cop" individual is always best resolved by apprehending him and not tearing his face off! 
2. Like it or not, you stand a much better chance of avoiding a civil suit or reducing the possible payout if you lose if the dog restrains the suspect in a manner that minimizes the damage. I know everyone likes to let the dog get his bite on, but as I stated in an earlier post *GOD HELP the Department *that is responsible for training a dog to target the head and ends up tearing the suspects face off!

Kristina, you make some very nice points as well! :wink:


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## Bryan Colletti (Feb 16, 2007)

What you need to do is look at the training, I mean really look at it! It is not too hard to see how useful it can be for one particular situation. A stand off.

The dogs are generally small high energy dog that come in like a Tornado of chaos, which in turns hurts the guy, but really confuses the hell out of him, thus providing officers time to come in and subdue the irrational perp or what have you.

I love the training and idea. I just dont have a need for it, unless an officer came to me and said please teach my dog this as I have been to come up with tactical plan.

Imagine throwing a bees nest at a person, will they be able to recite the star spangled banner for you?

Bryan


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## Kristina Senter (Apr 4, 2006)

Bryan Colletti said:


> Imagine throwing a bees nest at a person, will they be able to recite the star spangled banner for you?
> 
> Bryan



That depends :-k 
I'd like to further explore the possabilities...


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## Will Kline (Jan 10, 2008)

Let me add a disclaimer to my previous post as it seems I do not have the "edit button" available on my posts. 

If you were to only send the dog in while muzzled then I suppose you could get away with it, however, dogs here in Michigan are not muzzled and would really cause alot of damage if they were to utilize that technique without a muzzle.


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## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

Disagree, the original intent of this training was for crowd control in muzzle, obviously somebody realized it would not suffice, I have no clue what they are using it for now. I have not been back to Europe since 93 so I can't give any updated info at this time.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Phil Dodson said:


> Disagree, the original intent of this training was for crowd control in muzzle, obviously somebody realized it would not suffice, I have no clue what they are using it for now. I have not been back to Europe since 93 so I can't give any updated info at this time.


i was in holland in 07. the very limited use of muzzles is only for "proofing" and some don't believe in using the muzzle at all...


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## Bryan Colletti (Feb 16, 2007)

I can not comment on how things went in Europe back in 93 Still a young man at that time. However I can comment on what was shown to me by Trainers last year with French and Mexican backgrounds. I would never muzzle a dog for crowd control, kind of defeats the purpose if you have to use a dog, I would think. Not to mention, putting your dog at risk to getting hurt.

There is a difference in the training here. Muzzle work for the most part is intended as a simulation to a real bite, a training tool for a very short exercize that builds frustration and confidence. 

What you are seeing in the video is not conventional muzzle training at all, they teach a dog to simply punch and keep punching. Not act like he is biting and driving into the man and dominating him. 

Bryan


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

Muzzles are still used in crowdcontrolls, and also in sport, in this part of Europe, but not with the goal that the dog should hit the head, wich of course may happen anyway with a dog that hits high. If the situation isn´t so serious a hit from a muzzled dog could be preferd, does take the fight out of many men anyway. If the situation escalates you can always remove the muzzle, and you risk no bites on innocent or other dogs and handlers as long as the dog is muzzled.


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## Kristina Senter (Apr 4, 2006)

I did security for a while at a reeealy seedy night club and got permission from the owner of the place to bring Gator, one of my mals, along. I had notified local LE that he would be with me and he would not be used for anything but my personal defense if the need arose. Their reply was "as long as we don't have to report anything, do whatever you want". 
We had a large brawl spill out into the parking lot one night, county was called and when they arrived, they requested I utilize Gator muzzled (BTW, I was a sworn officer, just not in this jurisdiction). He was kept leashed (15' line) the whole time for his safety but was definitely a valuable asset in shoving through and pushing back the crowd. Because I was reeling him in and sending him repeatedely, he probably muzzle-punched and dropped 12 people and we made it very clear that the muzzle could be removed for them if they preferred. It was very effective but we transported no one to the hospital for dog bites (I did go to court over one who claimed his ribs were broken by the dog but had no proof and the judge threw it out).


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## Bryan Colletti (Feb 16, 2007)

Well you certainly bring up a nice scenario with Gator. I can see how that might be an effective deterrant and a hell of a lot of fun for the dog.

We have this video from Boss's first day doing a muzzle attack, he is brutal with muzzle or not. He really wants to rip you apart, what a fun little dog to work. He falls off the deck and comes back up to try and castrate me. He loves hitting face and working down to the baby maker

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LC67TxjY-Q

Bryan


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Good gawd awmighty. First comes the b/h now muzzled dogs in police work. 

DFrost


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## Kristina Senter (Apr 4, 2006)

Bryan, I don't think I've seen Gator happier in a while, lol 
It was effective in that situation, but granted, thats a fairly rare situation. 
Private property, bunch of angry drunks (There were over 800 people in the bar at that time, probably 100 ended up in the fight at some point) and I'm caught in a compromising position being that I'm employed at that moment by the business owner who although he wants a bunch of people arrested and barred, he doesnt want patrons to fear returning because they got the snot bitten out of them by my dog when their buddy had a little too much to drink. Gator bit a couple of people at that location on other incidents so the group had a healthy respect for him sans-muzzle and I think this prooved to have been the right choice. 

This is not directly relevant, but I've heard a couple of people at different times say "two police dogs can control 50 people untill one bites someone", the theory being that once the crowd sees the dog preoccupied, they are less intimidated. As long as it "could be them" (before a bite), they are more likely to comply. I don't know whether there is any truth in that but it's an interesting thought.


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

David Frost said:


> Good gawd awmighty. First comes the b/h now muzzled dogs in police work.
> 
> DFrost


Well, the bark and hold have been in exsistence for very long I suppose, at least in the scandinavian countries, don´t know how they do it in germany and holland. The muzzle is foremost a way to train the dogs to bite civil, but a broken rib is better than a open wound I guess, when it´s a bunch of teenagers making trouble, as it often is.


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## Beth Moates (Nov 30, 2007)

One thing I have observed personally in other countries, is that they can get away with a lot more than we can. The GSG-9 (SEK) in Germany. Their dogs are sent in to bite who ever they come in contact with first,whether it by victim or subject. The reason is for diversionary tactic. It does work.They also have no out on the dogs I have seen. They use a pry stick (Looks like a small hockey stick) to get the dog to release. I know most will not agree with me , but the criminals have to many rights in this country.


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## Jeremy Bond (Feb 1, 2008)

Will Kline said:


> I can only imagine what some good civil defense attorney would do if he were to get ahold of the video in which the dog was trained to target the face. #-o


That's exactly what I was thinking. Because face and neck bites were some of the upper admins. concerns when we got our dog. I don't get to do a lot of muzzle training. But when I do get to do it. Tess appears to be "spearing" at the chest knocking the decoy to the ground and then its obvious she is trying to bite the arms. I am still learning all of her quirks right now though, just got her in July.


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## Epi Gumatay (Apr 4, 2007)

Tim Martens said:


> http://www.dailymotion.com/relevanc...E/video/x2uny8_impacts-frappe-muselee_animals
> 
> comments, thoughts, opinions?


I would have liked to see more of a dog on the decoy rather than the dogs just hitting and then the handler pulling the animal away. Maybe they do this but in this video it doesnt show that.


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