# The purpose of the German Shepherd.



## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

We have all seen these words of Von Stephanitz:


"utility is the true criterion of Beauty." 



Let us look at the complete passage from the text of his book:





"The ideal of the Society was to develop Police trial Champions out of Exhibition Champions, our shepherd dog therefore, was further developed by dog lovers as a working dog. The Standard by which he would be judged and approved was this, namely:–utility is the true criterion of Beauty."


This is pretty clear in black and white. In other passages he mentions the extreme fall off in
sheep breeding in the middle of the 19th century. This is also mentioned in Belgian texts, mutton and wool was being imported from places like Australia and Argentina at low prices that undercut European shephherds.


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

I can well believe the good captain could foresee the demise of herding as an enterprise. I can also see and feel his worry and insistance about how the GSD (as such) would or could be carried on. ie. just where would all the stock come from for future generations?

The key word is utility when trying to garner what his meaning about where he felt the breed should be maintained.
Up til the time he died almost all prodigy came from HGH sires and dams.

Utility:
N., the quality or condition of being useful.
Adj., Used, serving or working in several capacities as needed.
Designed for various often heavy duty practical uses.

The term work does not in anyones dictionary delineate the word for just police work, where as utility covers a very wide range of work in any language.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Thank you Randy, I was begining to think most believed the GSD was primarily for PSD or MWD. But as you have stated, it's much more deverse than that.


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

Randy Allen said:


> I can well believe the good captain could foresee the demise of herding as an enterprise. I can also see and feel his worry and insistance about how the GSD (as such) would or could be carried on. ie. just where would all the stock come from for future generations?
> 
> The key word is utility when trying to garner what his meaning about where he felt the breed should be maintained.
> Up til the time he died almost all prodigy came from HGH sires and dams.
> ...



Randy, you are just making things up.

Relatively few of the early shepherds, including Horand v Garfath, the dog von Stephenitz founded the breed on, held an HGH certificate. The dogs were from herding stock and lines, but very very
few of the offspring of the dogs actually entered into the stud book were working shepherd dogs, or were trained for this work.

Not sure if this will work, but in this pedigree look at the PD titles for police dog and the HGH titles.

*Jung Tell von der Kriminalpolizei 1911*

Pilot b 1899
Wolf (Balingen)
Nelly II Eislingen (die Jüngere)
Graf Eberhard vom Hohen Esp
Hektor von Schwaben
Nelly II Eislingen (die Jüngere)
Nelly Eislingen BORN 1898
Sieger 1908 Luchs vom Kalsmunt Wetzlar
Prinz von Karlsruhe .1899
Dewet Barbarossa (fr Eislingen) PH
Sara von der Krone HGH B.1899
Minka Barbarossa PH
Beowulf BORN 22.03.1899
1902/03 Sieger Hella von Memmingen
Nelly Eislingen BORN ?.??.1898
Tell von der Kriminalpolizei PH
 Hektor von Schwaben
Heinz von Starkenburg SchH3
Lucie von Starkenburg
Roland von Starkenburg SchH3
Beowulf BORN 22.03.1899
Bella von Starkenburg
Lucie von Starkenburg
Herta von der Kriminalpolizei PH
Rex (Ruede) 990599 HGH
Tell vom Goldsteintal
-----
Fanny von der Kriminalpolizei PH
Beowulf vom Nahegau SchH3
Tillie vom Goldsteintal
Rassy vom Goldsteintal
Jung Tell von der Kriminalpolizei PH 1911
Pilot BORN 22.03.1899
Wolf (Balingen)
Nelly II Eislingen (die Jüngere)
Graf Eberhard vom Hohen Esp
Hektor von Schwaben
Nelly II Eislingen (die Jüngere)
Nelly Eislingen b 1898
Munko von Boll HGH
Beowulf 1899
Rigo von Brenztal
Gretel v Algaeu
Lori von Brenztal
Karo 990320 HGH
Loria vom Brenztal
Madam
Gerta von Boll
Graf von der Grube 
Baron Hans von Tautenburg
Sibylle von Tautenburg
Achim von Tautenburg HGH
Beowulf (Sonnenberg) b 1899
Kriemhild von Tautenburg
Hexe von Hohen Esp
Hella von Boll
Pax vom Brenztal HGH
Pascha (zum Bach)
Flora vom Neckerursprung
Minka von Boll
Tell Bipontius
 Eva (von der Hardt)
Cora v Schwarzwald


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

*Opps, pedigree did not print*

OK, sorry about that.

Download this book:

http://www.angelplace.net/doc/GarrettBook.pdf

There are about a dozen 5 generation pedigrees of
prominent dogs from the early years, mostly seagers.

There is a scattering of HGH titles early but even then
more PH for police dog and then gradually more Schutzhund
dogs.

No matter how much proof you present, these people,
who apparently do no real research, just come up with
more unfounded and eventually silly statements.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Jim although I agree with your premise, I have to say that just because a dog lacks a herding title does not mean that it's not a herding dog. The vast majority of dogs that herd have no titles. So I think that, unless you know all of those dogs, your list is pretty useless.

And the HGH title means a dog can really herd as much as the IPO title means a dog can really be a police dog.


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

Christopher,
You are correct that the majority of dogs doing herding in Germany have not held the HGH title, 
and have not been registered German Shepherds, although the HGH was under the control of a herding dog association, not the SV according to the Garrett text. Again Garrett indicates, and has pictures from the fifties, that there were a lot of old style herding dogs doing the actual herding in Germany. A few herding kennels such as von Kiirshental have persisted, but these were very small in number.

It is true that later on, again according to Garrett and others, that von Stephanitz did put emphasis on getting breeding stock from actual herding dogs, HGH or not. This went on at least into the 30s.

But once the stud book was started most of the pups born were being born in GSD kennels and every indication is that these dogs were not actually herding. Look at the old pedigrees, very few HGH titles on dogs with 3 or 4 generations, but increasing police dog and Schutzhund titles. There was a huge build up of military dogs leading up to WW I.

My copy of the von Stephenitz book has all kinds of little sticky tags and notes, it is difficult reading but there is useful information out there. I have been doing pretty intense research on the GSD for my book in the last couple of months, and there have been surprises, like the police titles instead of Schutzhund early on and how far back the show vs. work conflicts went on.

I am a lot more familiar with Malinois history because the Bouvier involved the same region and many of the same people, and there is ample evidence there.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Yes Jim I have studied the GSD also. Let me ask you a few questions. I hope that when you find the answers you find them as illuminating as I did. 

What and when was the first event the SV ever held?

When was the SV's first working dog trial?

What are the names of the dogs handled by Stephanitz and what kind of work did he do with those dogs?


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

My bad, I used the title HGH instead of just using the word herders.

'It is true that later on, again according to Garrett and others, that von Stephanitz did put emphasis on getting breeding stock from actual herding dogs, HGH or not. This went on at least into the 30s.'

If you want to nit pick and insert the phrase into my critique, then fine. It doesn't take away from my primus at all....
Which I believe just what the founders vision of the perfect dog was and if it was EVER (as at any time) intended as a one dimensional animal.


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

Yes Jim I have studied the GSD also. Let me ask you a few questions. I hope that when you find the answers you find them as illuminating as I did. 

What and when was the first event the SV ever held?
[FONT=&quot]On September 20, 1899, the SV adopted a breed standard based on the proposals of Meyer and Von Stephanitz and later held its first Sieger Show at Frankfurt-am-Main, using the titles Sieger and Siegerin. [/FONT]
If you have an exact date, please provide a reference.

When was the SV's first working dog trial?
The year 1901 is mentioned for a first Schutzhund trial, do you have more details ?

What are the names of the dogs handled by Stephanitz and what kind of work did he do with those dogs? 
Good question, and one I have often thought about. von Stephanitz was an officer and part of the nobility, so my guess is that he may never have actually trained or shown a dog. 

If you have a secret source of information I am not aware of, what do I have to do to get access to it ?


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

I don't have a secret source. I just have a lot of these. 

As to the first working trial; when do we find the first schutzhund titles on pedigrees?


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

*Re: Opps, pedigree did not print*



Jim Engel said:


> No matter how much proof you present, these people,
> who apparently do no real research, just come up with
> more unfounded and eventually silly statements.


 
Kinda funny ah. Kinda like those self proclaimed experts that believe all police suspects persued by police dogs are scared of them and confused. LOL


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

*Von Stephanitz, page 377*: "The genuine and noblest vocation for the shepherd-dog is, no doubt, tending flocks and above all, as his name says, tending sheep." "The shepherd-dog is a working dog and only as such can he remain a shepherd-dog, for that reason we value him, and for that reason we love him." "When he cannot be employed in his proper vocation with the flocks, then he must be given other duties which lie within his scope by means of his development."

*Von Stephanitz, page 428-430: "*This brings us back to the dog once more. I have already said more than once that his real work is with sheep; he works however, with all kinds of livestock, and is perfectly able to adopt himself to any other kind of work. Dogs that are particularly sharp are used for pig-tending, because the country pig when out at pasture is an awkward customer who does not possess the patience of the sheep. A sow or a boar can deal hard blows and even draw blood, and an old boar will sometimes turn on the swineherd and strangers. In such cases, the dog must come to the rescue and bark the villain into a state of sweet reasonableness. With swine, the grip should be on the hams; in South Germany, however, the grip on the ear is allowed but the sensitive tail should bever be gripped. In all other respecs the work of the swine dog is identical, whether on the road or on the pasture with the herds, with that of the shepherd dog. With the improvement of extensive pasturage, the shepherd-dog is being used more and more. Dairymen or cow keepers know well the value of a bold dog to help both when driving the cattle out to pasture and bringing them in for milking and quite a few have been saved at the last moment by their dogs from a bull turned savage. Very small dogs are sometimes used with the larger cattle, especially in the Harz mountains. Here, it is never a question of sive with the dog but of courage and cleverness, for the dog is supposed to grip one hand's breadth above the hind fetlocks, and must then immediately jump to one side, or throw himself down, if he does not wish to get a very hard kick on the head, which in many cases lay him out for the good and all. Any other grip is forbidden, and on no account must he go for the belly or the udder, but when attacking cattle he must always bark. Occasionally one also sees shepherd-dogs with horses grazing in the fields--our dogs are very fond and reliable in guarding carriage horses are never very far fromthem--and in the East they are also used for tending large flocks of geese. The dog for such work must be carefully selected, for a goose is very short-tempered and has a very good idea of how to use its beak, but it cannot stand being nipped. In former times when the geese waddled in large flocks from Posen to Berlin and the various other markets, shepherd-dogs trotted along with them to drive them. But it was not necessary, however to harden their pads with liquid pitch before the march started as had to be done with their charges.

All working shepherd-dogs that do not find work with cattle or with flocks, and those that show themselves unsuitable for such work, always find another sphere of employment , generally as watch dogs on the farm.


*GSDs were not created as a single function police dog. No matter what you may want to propose or advocate for its use in today's world, first and foremost it was a stock dog and as such it has the ability to perform in other vocations, PSDs, being one of them.*

*Terrasita*


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

regardless of history...

functions evolve to fit changing trends in societies..

I am no dog guru, but it seems to me that the use of the GSD as a functional herding dog, as it pertains to the breed is gone. Simply meaning that most people that need to have functional herding dogs, are not using the gsd on any type of large scale worldwide...

it is obvious to me, the gsd as a functional working dog, is being used in a PSD/MWD capacity in numbers that are exponentially greater than herding.

To me, breeding the gsd for its herding abilities, can add value to the breed in regards to health and work ethic among other things I am sure.. but regardless of the functions of the dogs, look at all the various breed standards... TODAY...not 100 years ago...

in all the various standards and history, I see many many references that pertain to the temperament of the "ideal", words like he must possess :

*sound nerves
courage
willingness to fight
hardness*

"He must have *courage, fighting drive, and hardness* in order to serve as companion, watchdog, protection dog, service dog, and herding dog."

This is the modern description of some of what the ideal GSD should possess, according to pretty much everyone.....(in theory, and on paper).

it is these core traits that are supposed to the cornerstone of the GSD.

I doubt that these traits are defined by most people, in regards to how the dog responds in a herding setting, and seem to go hand in hand with what the dogs should possess in regards to interactions with humans, when serving some of the various more modern functions.

Regardless of what anyone feels the true function, or whatever the breed was historically supposed to have, the above listed, to me, aside from health, is what the majority of the breed is lacking...

now ask yourself this question.

How do you test and select breeding stock, and making breeding decisions in regards to increasing the prevalence of courage, fighting drive, and hardness?


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

Those are the traits the founder congealed from the herders/guardian dogs of his day Joby.

And on some level I bet the case can be made that PSD/MWD's dogs of the day were actually rejects, because they weren't the best of the best for the farm (or whatever you want to call the life style of the era).
Captain von Stephanitz great hope was for those of us that love the breed to never forget from hence the core of the GSD comes from.
And that however it needs to done, figure out a way to maintain the great dog he managed to realize.

It can not be done by centering and breeding toward any one or two attributes.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Randy Allen said:


> Those are the traits the founder congealed from the herders/guardian dogs of his day Joby.
> 
> And on some level I bet the case can be made that PSD/MWD's dogs of the day were actually rejects, because they weren't the best of the best for the farm (or whatever you want to call the life style of the era).
> Captain von Stephanitz great hope was for those of us that love the breed to never forget from hence the core of the GSD comes from.
> ...


I can agree with that...

I would bet a functional guardian type dog from back then was a little different than the "watch dog" mentality of today, that is not expected to functionally work as a guardian dog.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

One of the problems is that the belief at the time is that the stock dogs gave you the instincts that you needed for every thing else. The e-book that Gordon Garrett wrote and Jim provides a link to keeps stating that they repeatedly went back to the herders even the unregistered ones after the stud book was initiated to obtain and keep character traits. What has occurred is beginning select for the super sport, PSD/MWD dog that will have no resemblance to the historical GSD. You're already seeing this in herding where in sport herding for HGH you have those that actually say its all just based on prey drive and not any semblance of stock sense that includes instinctive group, balance, etc. With prey drive and bucket trained sheep, who needs, nerves and courage. A dog passed the HGH who failed to have the power to hold the sheep in the graze at a facility where she lived and she trained. No one wants instincts. They don't want a dog who can think. Its a bite and hold grip machine. Never do you hear on this board the appreciation for the one thing that made the breed so popular---intelligence. Nerves, courage, fight, hardness is a partial listing. The dog you get acting on instinct is a different dog than what you get trying to turn him on in an artificial situation. So you try to single select and breed for a level of prey/fight that you would get in an instinct triggered situation but also possibly to the detriment of other valuable traits. Unless you have managed farm stock with a dog, you don't see the totality of traits at play. People want GSDs for herding. I was at a trial last weekend and a judge that I hadn't seen in years wanted to know why I wasn't trialing a GSD. My response was, "can't find one." She responded that someone else she knew was in the same boat. A woman just emailed me about having one out of sport/protection lines that she can't do a thing with and now has a BC. She's new so that may be part of it. If I end up doing a clinic there, I can see the dog for myself. But herders have no use for a senseless prey/fight dog. They want intelligence and the ability to discern.

In sport [and I include herding] you have dogs that are capable of gaining titles and they have less than ideal mental type. That's a huge problem. We shouldn't have the idea of a club dog in Sch. Obedience position dogs shouldn't be able to title in herding. The trialing systems haven't helped in selecting for the better dogs. The biggest problem in GSD is health. You have registry system that has perpetuated breeding unhealthy dogs. You look at the pedigrees of these dogs and the conclusion is that they can't help but be dysplastic. By the time typical dysplasia becomes symptomatic, the bite sport trainer has titled the dog out. Training is 15 minutes on the field. A herding dog is in his prime from ages 5-8 and the healthy ones are still working ages 10-12. We don't have time for the dog to crap out at age 5 due to health. We also work the dogs longer and harder. If all you have is a trialing system as a test for the dogs, then the trialing requirements should mimic the actual work conditions. 

Breeders are the other issue. As Stefan has alluded to, breeders create dogs, not trialing systems or registries. However, the motivation has become money and status--not perpetuation or the betterment of the breed. We have two extremes---show and sport; neither of which is really hitting the true mark on what the breed is supposed to be. We have working line breeders that will spend pages and pages lamenting the show dog world when what have they done on their end? You see $1200-$2500 priced dogs out of untitled and flaky health tested dogs. For what? Most people can't afford dog sports with the price of the dog, costs of training and trial entry fees. 

Really, what has contributed to the end of working dogs is working people playing in the registry system. Closed stud books haven't helped anything along with the elitism its fostered. Instead of faking papers, opt for working tests/trialing systems that have nothing to do with breed registries. But can people dispense with the ego of winning the world this or the national that? 

The police and military functions have changed. I think you need a constant round table discussion between LE, military and breeders in terms of what is needed in those functions beyond detection. I'm always curious about looking up the criteria for the various agencies that Mike Suttle mentions. 

The terms courage and hardness mean different things to different people. There is a video posted of a head of cattle chasing a kelpie. Right there--courage/hardness. A good GSD wouldn't give ground for that for love or money. Nor would the bouvier or the corgi. They are not going to be chased even for a few inches. If the job was to contain/control that head of stock and put it somewhere, not for love or money would they give it up until that job was done. Livestock don't help the dog. Some even go out to seriously hurt the dog. Does the dog fade off the pressure or stand his ground? Herders have war stories dealing with rams and cattle and sometimes ewes with lambs. The ones that come out unscathed are the ones that had a dog with instinctive defense of handler, fight drive and guts. They also know how much pressure to apply to gain control and accomplish the job because there is a mental communication between them and the stock. They just don't react to prey movement. The show down is when there is refusal to move. You don't condition these traits. They either have it or they don't. Farmers know if they have a dog that will stand their ground or fade off the head of stock that is applying the pressure only to select out the weak. We know the ones that can track on a blind outrun and return home with the stock that was out of sight when we sent the dog. We have dogs that would freeze with hypothermia or pass out in a heat stroke before they would leave a stock job undone. In the GSD, the same dog will mother the lambs along and back the crazy ewe off at the same time. You can leave them alone with a flock of anything they will stand guard. In the original Sch tests, many of those traits tested for with protection and guard, were based on instinct. As I said, now instinct is frowned upon. You only want the dog to do what you tell him to do not based on how he reads a particular situation. But you want him to look like he would in demeanor if he were acting on instinct. So amp up the prey/fight in selection. 

When you read von Stephanitz and the chapters on the initial breeding, the reference to working dogs was a reference to herding dogs. If you need super sport/LE/MW dogs, I opt for that category. We need a category for the traditiona dog with instinct [stock, territoriality/guard, defense of handler] and intelligence. We need a dog of social reliability and discernment. I don't begrudge the need for the super sport dog but I don't want to lose the traditional dog in the breed. I always want to hear specifically what is needed instead of the more is better route.

Terrasita


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> When you read von Stephanitz and the chapters on the initial breeding, the reference to working dogs was a reference to herding dogs. If you need super sport/LE/MW dogs, I opt for that category. *We need a category for the traditiona dog with instinct [stock, territoriality/guard, defense of handler] and intelligence.* We need a dog of social reliability and discernment. I don't begrudge the need for the super sport dog but I don't want to lose the traditional dog in the breed. I always want to hear specifically what is needed instead of the more is better route.
> 
> Terrasita


Insinct? or capabilites? 

territorial guard, defense of handler..... to ME mean means capable of defending, actually being capable of performing those uses..

not just having the instinct to try to defend, up to some really weak limits, due to not testing for or breeding for the nerves, courage, fighting drive, or hardness to perform these duties you laid out in your "traditional" type dog...

one does not need a super sport or super psd, super high drives, to maintain these traits we are talking about, it is mostly in the character of the dog. 

so how would one interested in breeding the all around traditional dog to perform these things, test for these things in your opinion? aside from the herding aspect, and expecting these things to just be there because the dog can herd.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> Insinct? or capabilites?
> 
> territorial guard, defense of handler..... to ME mean means capable of defending, actually being capable of performing those uses..
> 
> ...


 
Its instinct. They know when. Or they did. Anymore, I don't know what's happened to them. The dogs I grew up with and had before I had stock, had those instincts and you knew it. The last GSD I tested for Schutzhund, they proclaimed to serious and she didn't think it was a game. I can tell you from living with her and the situations I've seen her handle, she had all the capabilities. I trained her to be able to have control of them. Its the same with the herding dogs. You don't train them to do certain things. You put words/cues on the behaviors to have control of them. We've had how many years of wanting the "game" dog for points. And I agree with you, a dog with "character" you don't need the super sport dog to get. First you have to know what character is. Look at Stefan's web site and see the descriptions of the dogs. Max Orsi is another one that at least describes a dog in terms of his character. Who else does? Its all about super drives. I think at some point you had somewhat adequate sport testing systems before they were so watered down to nothing. As I said, I would look to what LE and some of the MW and agency systems test for and what type of dogs are passing those tests to get a handle on what is needed in those contexts TODAY. Melody Greba works LE dogs and has stock. That's a marriage made in heaven. She can characterize certain traits on both sides. Kennel breeding is an issue as it was said in the beginning. Unless you have those dogs out and about exposing them and guaging their reactions and you bond with and live with them, I don't think you get a complete sense of that character. I train a dog with all sorts of titles. Before I took him home with me, I had one view of them. Now I have an altogether different view of him. I assumed he had certain minimum character traits just from some of his titles. You get a different perspective once you live with them. People are too impatient. Herders expect to spend 3-4 years developing a dog. By then we have raised them and put them through their paces. Force it too early and they are ruined--particularly with fight stock and defense. I think a lot of times with LE, they make the best of what they have but talk to them in terms of the "ideal" dog for street and detection work. They have a 14 week training program. You either make it or you don't. I'd want to follow those dogs in their lives and work in terms of how they are to live with and what they encounter in their work. I'd bet money a truly confident stock dog with high object drive and a nose would have no problem. I've tested Sch dogs on stock. Now I need to find a couple of LE dogs. I think I noticed a couple of the Lyda dogs had HICs. 

Terrasita


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

T, your boy still luvs ya and misses ya! :wink:


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> T, your boy still luvs ya and misses ya! :wink:


Yeah, its because of him I'm keeping the faith. For me, he's the historical/traditionall instinctual dog.

T


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