# Rules in French Ring



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

If a decoy who has been selected for the championships cannot do them for whatever reason, then WHERE do you get the replacement decoy from ??

I was wondering the exact rules, as some people that I liked and respected seem to have lost their way.

I figure I bust out some of the chickenshit, and maybe they will come to their senses.

A decoy was dismissed or whatever, for doing a french ring trial for a new/different/who gives a **** organization. Now THAT is chickenshit in itself, but I was wondering what the rule was for choosing the replacement decoy for the championship ??

What qualifications does this decoy need to have ?? Can it be JUST ANY OLD DECOY ??

If so, then I want to do the NARA championships. I have a suit, know most of the rules, and can catch a dog safely all day. Heck, I will get a fancy new suit if that is what it takes, and will get shoes to match like all the other ****.

Or, maybe I just want some semblance of decency back.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> If a decoy who has been selected for the championships cannot do them for whatever reason, then WHERE do you get the replacement decoy from ??
> 
> I was wondering the exact rules, as some people that I liked and respected seem to have lost their way.
> 
> ...


 
Maybe you should start with asking the Basic question without all the Retoric first. :roll:

I believe most of the details were outlined on the Yahoo NARA message board.

The first step would to be an actual Certified Decoy...:-&


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## Marcus Carroll (Aug 4, 2009)

So you go to an ARF seminar and now your are the expert on what is going on with the NARA championship. If you read the rules instead of trying to stir up trouble, you will find out the policies on becoming a decoy and on decoy selection for prestige events.


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## Billy DiSciullo (Oct 4, 2009)

Jeff,
This is my take on the situation. 

Manuel Montero:
The only foreign decoy to participate in the NARA DSS. I believe this means he has earned his place at the NARA Championship. However, there is an issue in the fact that he worked two trials in Cal. both hosted by Southern Cal. All Breed Ringers. One on Jan. 31 to Feb. 1, 2009 and the other March 27-28. These trials were after he was announced to do the NARA championship. See NARA policy below. 
**************************************************************************
The decoys at the Championship trial shall include the highest placing NARA Level 2 or Level 3 decoy at the NARA Superselection and one invited neutral foreign decoy*. Competitors are forbidden from working their dogs, in training, trial or any other scenario, on the invited foreign decoy once his name is announced, under penalty of disqualification from the NARA Championship trial and the title of NARA Champion. *
Last Modified Mar 23, 2009 
*****************************************************

The second NARA decoy Waleed Maalouf has never passed a NARA DSS ( to my knowledge ). The only time he attemped the NARA DSS was in 2007 in Chicago. He did not pass and at that time he was a level l NARA decoy. So if NARA is going to follow their own rules it should have passed to a French or Mexican decoy.
******************************************************************************
*Alternates *



In the event that there are not enough NARA decoys competing in and passing the DSS in any given year to fill all the decoy slots at our prestige events, the following approach will be used to invite alternate decoys to participate. This approach is intended to ensure that the decoy work at NARA's prestige events is always of the highest caliber.




For Championship / Cup openings: 
Invitations will be extended to International Level II decoys who passed the current year's NARA DSS. If none are willing / available, then: 

1. Invitations will be extended to SCC Level II decoys who officiated in the Coupe or the French Selectifs the previous year (or current year, depending on timing), in order of super selection placement. If none are willing/available, then: 
2. Invitations will be extended to SCC Level II decoys who passed the most recent French super selection, in order of placement. If none are willing/available, then: 
3. Invitations will be extended to SCC Level II decoys who passed the previous French super selection, in order of placement. If none are willing/available, then: 
4. Invitations will be extended to the NARA decoys who passed the previous year's DSS. If none are available, then: 
5. Invitations will be extended to Mexican Level II decoys who passed the most recent Mexican super selection, in order of 

************************************************************************************************** 

As far as the decoy that was invited to do the NARA Championship and had his book revoked for decoying another French Ring trial hosted by the ARF orginization is very unfortunate and I'm sure NARA will come up with some sort of rule to justify their reasoning.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Billy DiSciullo said:


> As far as the decoy that was invited to do the NARA Championship and had his book revoked for decoying another French Ring trial hosted by the ARF orginization is very unfortunate and I'm sure NARA will come up with some sort of rule to justify their reasoning.


I heard at some of the NARA trials that I attended in passing that the decoy in question didn't pass or the judge did NOT sign off for him at the NARA decoy super selection? So wouldn't that put the decoy into question for decoying a national championship anyways? Can any one confirm this? 

Are not scorebooks and decoy books owned by the parent organization as well? We all know that NARA had put a policy in place back in the spring about NARA owned books being used in the other organization. 

http://www.ringsport.org/arf_msg.php



NARAwww said:


> *For these reasons, the BOD agrees unanimously that the existence of a second ringsport organization in the United States is not at all beneficial to NARA or its members, and is, in fact, a detriment to the growth of ringsport in this country. Therefore, NARA cannot support the ARF organization, and will not recognize scores and titles obtained at ARF trials. NARA members are free to choose for themselves whether they wish to support the ARF organization and its trials, but any scores and titles earned there may not be recorded in NARA scorebooks. Further, any scores and titles earned at ARF trials will not be recognized by NARA.*


To me that would include NARA owned decoy books as well. It seems pretty silly that someone would take a chance on decoying a trial knowing that there is a big* ? *over the new organizations head for what ever reasons and then putting your chance at decoying something as prestigious as the National championship on the line. 

But the big question is did that decoy pass the DSS in the first place?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: 
So you go to an ARF seminar and now your are the expert on what is going on with the NARA championship. If you read the rules instead of trying to stir up trouble, you will find out the policies on becoming a decoy and on decoy selection for prestige events.

So I had to go to a seminar to do this ?? I would be the one GIVING the seminar. If there is no trouble, and shit isn't shady, you would stay off the board like a good little non contributor, and I wouldn't be asking any questions.

I don't like politics. 

Kyle, I may be old, I may not be certified, but I can still work a dog. Anytime you are in Texas, give me a call, and you can see for yourself how I can work a dog, and then we can talk.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Geoff, there are always two sides to a coin for sure, but to hold it against people is simply bullshit. If ARF was such a bane, then why has ring always had so many problems growing ? That sort of mentality should say that PSA is not good for the growth of ring, so **** them, as well as Sch. 

Maybe people think I am a problem child, God knows I am, but the fact of the matter is that all this fuss about a new organization is silly and petty.

Kyle, can two level one decoys do a trial where there are level three dogs competing ??


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

> Kyle, can two level one decoys do a trial where there are level three dogs competing ??


He he what is this you standing question that you always bring up??


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## Billy DiSciullo (Oct 4, 2009)

Jeff,

That is NARA's own fear talking! Some people decided to go the own way after being suspended from NARA for reasons the NARA BoD thought were creditable. They started their own orginization and moved on! What did the NARA BoD think these people should do with all their training time, trial time, time spent on the field decoying trials, and their highly trained dogs not to mention all their club members? Should they just sit by and watch until they had the OK to play again? They stepped up and are doing a fine job putting together a French Ring orginization that I'm proud to be a part of and they HAVE NOT looked back, in fact they are moving forward!!

As far as the NARA orginization not recognizing scores and titles obtained by and from this new orginization is their ONLY way to try to pull the plug on the ARF orginization and instill fear in their own members!!
The same goes for pulling decoy books!!

I for one DO NOT care if NARA recognizes my scores or not!! I know what my dog did on the trial field with a French judge and and two high level decoys at an ARF event, I DON"T need it to be recognized, justitfy and given the OK by any one BUT THE RECOGNIZED FRENCH JUDGE that was judging me and my dog...that's good enough for me!!

To me by not recognizing scores and titles obtained at ARF events by FRENCH JUDGES is questioning the creditablity of these said judges!!


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## Bob Solimini (Aug 10, 2008)

Geoff,
The decoy books as well as the scorebooks for the dog are the property of the person that PURCHASED them. When I did my decoy selection I had to pay to do the selection and a portion of that fee was for the decoy book. I also purchased the scorebooks for my dogs. When I shell out money for something I consider it MY PROPERTY!...


I heard at some of the NARA trials that I attended in passing that the decoy in question didn't pass or the judge did NOT sign off for him at the NARA decoy super selection? So wouldn't that put the decoy into question for decoying a national championship anyways? Can any one confirm this? 

Are not scorebooks and decoy books owned by the parent organization as well? We all know that NARA had put a policy in place back in the spring about NARA owned books being used in the other organization. 

http://www.ringsport.org/arf_msg.php





To me that would include NARA owned decoy books as well. It seems pretty silly that someone would take a chance on decoying a trial knowing that there is a big* ? *over the new organizations head for what ever reasons and then putting your chance at decoying something as prestigious as the National championship on the line. 

But the big question is did that decoy pass the DSS in the first place?
__________________
"Does your dog bite?" "No" .. Person tries to pet dog .. GRRR RAWR ROFFFFF!! "I thought you said your dog doesn't bite?" "That's not my dog ..."


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I will address a few things here, then I'm out of here, busy with to many other things including preparing for the NARA Championships.

Billy - look at the date the policy was last modified. The foreign decoy portion was added AFTER the Jan 1 trial had already happened, and less then 1 week before the March trial, which had been on the books for awhile. It would have been unfair to pass a policy less then 1 week before a trial then tell the club "oh, by the way, you can't use the decoy you planned to use anymore" so the policy was voted to go into effect after that trial was over.

Regarding Eduardo's book, nobody revoked it. He was told he could not put an ARF event in his book, NARA wanted to verify he hadn't, Eduardo refused to comply with the requests of the NARA DOD and BOD. Policy 2000 on the NARA website clearly outlines the rules regarding non-recognized events/sanctioning bodies and how they are to be handled.



> Kyle, can two level one decoys do a trial where there are level three dogs competing ??


Yes. This has been acceptable in NARA for years, in part due to the lack of Level 2 decoys in this country. There have been many French judges here judging trials with no complaints about this. Now some people are trying to make an issue of it, although some of these same people had no problem competing in trials that only had 2 level 1 decoys.

Jeff, per the French rules, can American Bulldogs compete in French Ring? What about dogs without an FCI recognized pedigree?



> I don't like politics.


For someone who doesn't like politics you sure like to try to stir stuff up.

It's really quite simple. NARA does not recognize ARF. There is no NARA rule anywhere stating that people can not participate in ARF events, anyone who wants to is welcome to. They simply have to understand that NARA will not recognize an ARF event in terms of titles/competition levels, and they can not be entered into a NARA scorebook.

Kadi Thingvall - NARA member since 1992


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: 
It's really quite simple. NARA does not recognize ARF

Whats the big deal ?? Who cares, and in 500 years, will it matter ??

Quote: 
I don't like politics.
For someone who doesn't like politics you sure like to try to stir stuff up.

Hell yes. The people that it bothers are politicians.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

I'll be watching the Championships (some FRIs on Friday and all the FRIII on Sunday) and will try to video as much of the decoy work as possible. This way everyone can see the level and quality of work and of course the dogs. I can't promise a professional or complete job, but will get what I can up on YouTube.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Debbie Skinner said:


> I'll be watching the Championships (some FRIs on Friday and all the FRIII on Sunday) and will try to video as much of the decoy work as possible. This way everyone can see the level and quality of work and of course the dogs. I can't promise a professional or complete job, but will get what I can up on YouTube.


The FRIII's will probably be going on Saturday, not Sunday. We are hoping to have as much of Sunday avialable as possible for a regular Decoy Selection, and the Decoy Super Selection, so if we can get through the FRI-FRIII in 2 days (Fri/Sat) we will, otherwise we'll finish them up Sunday morning.

http://www.ringsportusa.com/schedule.html


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

I meant Saturday..don't know why I wrote Sunday.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Geoff, there are always two sides to a coin for sure, but to hold it against people is simply bullshit. If ARF was such a bane, then why has ring always had so many problems growing ? That sort of mentality should say that PSA is not good for the growth of ring, so **** them, as well as Sch.
> 
> Maybe people think I am a problem child, God knows I am, but the fact of the matter is that all this fuss about a new organization is silly and petty.


I don't think you are a problem child and think once we get to train dogs together we are going to have a great time that much I know. 

Yes there is 2 sides to every story unfortunately both of us don't know both sides or just rumours, hearsay and bits and pieces.

You made the comment about PSA being bad for Ringsport. I thought it was quite interesting to see that the 3 people on the ARF www as founders were on last years NARA BOD. Division is what it is, and this past year has shown that the division with all the assorted political baggage that came with it (call it what you will) has *NOT* been good for the growth of our sport in all of North America. 

Basically the way I look at it Jeff is that we are outsiders and hopefully that all involved can and will bury the hatchet at one point, for the sake of the sport and our dogs. But that is up to each organizations members or BOD to decide what is right for them, not us.


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## Billy DiSciullo (Oct 4, 2009)

Good Luck ladies!!


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Not me, I'm just going to watch a couple of dogs from my kennel. I haven't been a NARA member in years. I joined back in 1989 (after the ARF+AFRA) and quit around 2000.


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## FRANKIE COWEN (Jun 3, 2008)

geoff 

you said "we all know the founders were ex bod members" so what, maybe we tried to do things we thought were benificial for ringsport ,maybe we tried and reliezed the path nara was going with the new regime was not in the best intereest of ring int he usa, so we decided to go create a orgaazation thata follows the french so what why is that such a big isssue to anyone, What you never seen anyone sit on bod or a ceo for one company not like its vision and start there own thats so odd to you .
im so tired of the same ol same oh, arf arf arf give it a rest, yes i was on the board yes i was a member for many many years and highly succesfull as a trainier handler and decoy so what. why does it always go back tot the founders of arf were ex bod members what does that got to do with the questions ask.I wil say this again i have nothing to hide if anyone wants to ask me what i thought why i left what my visions were just call me , dont just say im ex nara bod member that means nothing yes i was suspended for some bull **** as i feel it was a get even scheme, yes there were policies put into affect days before i got suspended to keep my dogs out, so i choose to stand up and do something about it,. Well next time you get wronged if you want to sit back no do shit and cry thats your choice i choose not to . i choose to stand up for what i believe, hate me for it i dont care.


i will say this i did see the invited decoy announced on the nara website long before the first trial happen that billy mentioned, i dont know if they made polciy after he did trial or let that trial slide cause he was invited before the policy i dont know i think kadi said it was a week or so before trial before the policy went into affect or something like that if i miss read kadi post im sorry kadi, to be honest i dont care who decoys nara championships im not competing in the nara championship as i have done for what so many years i think i been in the championships trials since like 2000 with out missing a year ,( i would have to go look at my books), 

as far as edjuardo his book was signed as level 2 he went into the dss he did a level 2 selection then he did dss 20 minutes later , that takes big heart , yes he didnt comply when he was being i guess punished for decoy the arf trial, so thats things i dont like ,so i dont compete in nara right now, you may think its ok in your mind thats your choice i dont,
bottom line i like french ring i like real french ring with out nonsense , so were ever that is thats were you will see me , and again anyone got questions call me im honest im straight forward and i dont play games, so instead of saying general shit like i was on the bod before put substance down, call me . or let it go 
frankie cowen


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## FRANKIE COWEN (Jun 3, 2008)

kadi stated Yes. This has been acceptable in NARA for years, in part due to the lack of Level 2 decoys in this country. There have been many French judges here judging trials with no complaints about this. Now some people are trying to make an issue of it, although some of these same people had no problem competing in trials that only had 2 level 1 decoys.



well once you know its incorrect to do why would someone continue to do it. 


yes againas i stated before if my memory serves me right in over 40 trials in nara i comepted once in a trial that had 2 level one decoys and it was supposed to be one level 1 and one leve 2 for that trial according to what i was informed by hosting club yes i could have not done the trial after driving 1000 miles but i dindt even now it was illegal at that time also, i do know know and it wont happen again, the point is if you dont know something is incorrect than mistakes happen . but once you now its illegal and u still do it thats totaly wrong , 


your other comment kadi 

The foreign decoy portion was added AFTER the Jan 1 trial had already happened, and less then 1 week before the March trial, which had been on the books for awhile. It would have been unfair to pass a policy less then 1 week before a trial then tell the club "oh, by the way, you can't use the decoy you planned to use anymore" so the policy was voted to go into effect after that trial was over.


again its still agaisnt written policy. and maybe if the clubs were told as this policy was being thought about by the bod maybe they would have known to use different decoy , i dont know just it looks strange thats all , might be my pesimism though,


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

FRANKIE COWEN said:


> well once you know its incorrect to do why would someone continue to do it.





> but once you now its illegal and u still do it thats totaly wrong


 
Frankie, it isn't incorrect or illegal. Just like the blue dog policy, or allowing dogs without FCI pedigrees to compete, France for years has allowed NARA to make decisions to help growth here regarding some of the rules due to the size of the country, number of members playing etc. ARF is doing the same thing, allowing dogs not on the list of breeds in France, and dogs without FCI recognized pedigrees to trial. The US isn't France, and trying to run Ring here under the exact same rules as France IMO is a mistake that will only prevent the growth of the sport by limiting participation, making trials overly expensive to host, etc. 

As long as we aren't changing the basic rules of French Ring (heel on leash is worth 4 points, the guard of object is worth 30, a slow to bite penality is -2, etc) France really isn't worried about how we handle other things.





> again its still agaisnt written policy. and maybe if the clubs were told as this policy was being thought about by the bod maybe they would have known to use different decoy , i dont know just it looks strange thats all , might be my pesimism though,




No, it was not against written policy, because the actual vote was for the policy to not go into effect until after the trial was over because of the conflict. I guess it's confusing on the website, and that can be addressed (I have to look at the meeting minutes but I may have put the wrong date up), but at the time of the trial there was no written policy in effect. As far as forwarning the club, it simply didn't come up in time for that.


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## Craig Wood (Dec 9, 2008)

Quote from Kadi
“It's really quite simple. NARA does not recognize ARF. “

ARF recognizes NARA – NARA does not recognize ARF, so who is dividing French Ring in America?

Quote from Kadi
There is no NARA rule anywhere stating that people can not participate in ARF events, anyone who wants to is welcome to. They simply have to understand that NARA will not recognize an ARF event in terms of titles/competition levels, and they can not be entered into a NARA scorebook.”
Even though these titles / comp levels are recognized by France, Mexico, Spain and the Dominican Republic you discount them for your own members. Doesn’t this limit NARA member’s ability to compete in more trials, so who is preventing the growth of French Ring in America?

Quote from Kadi
“Billy - look at the date the policy was last modified. The foreign decoy portion was added AFTER the Jan 1 trial had already happened, and less then 1 week before the March trial, which had been on the books for awhile. It would have been unfair to pass a policy less then 1 week before a trial then tell the club "oh, by the way, you can't use the decoy you planned to use anymore" so the policy was voted to go into effect after that trial was over.”
Kadi
To truly be fair should you not have waited until next year before the policy was implemented? As it was NARA members were divided into 2 groups one group having had the advantage of working under the decoy in question and one group of NARA members without the advantage. So this year’s championship will be run with an unfair advantage for a select group of NARA members defined by those benefiting from the timing of the rule. So who is dividing NARA and who is dividing French Ring in America? 
Quote from Billy DiSciullo
Manuel Montero:
The only foreign decoy to participate in the NARA DSS. I believe this means he has earned his place at the NARA Championship. However, there is an issue in the fact that he worked two trials in Cal. both hosted by Southern Cal. All Breed Ringers. One on Jan. 31 to Feb. 1, 2009 and the other March 27-28. These trials were after he was announced to do the NARA championship. See NARA policy below.

From the two trials in question over 20 people had benefitted from working in a trial with Montero. 

The fact is that the club in question (your club) and over 20 dog handler teams including yourself with multiple dogs had an opportunity to work your dogs against Montero. Any sense of propriety regarding the timing of the rule change is lost with this fact in mind.


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## michael hill (Mar 3, 2009)

I have two questions: 1. Does a BOD member get paid? 2. Was there ever a time when dog training was fun?


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## Matt Nieuwkoop (May 14, 2009)

Michael, the answers to your questions:
1. No
2. Yes, before all the BS


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Craig Wood said:


> Quote from Kadi
> “It's really quite simple. NARA does not recognize ARF. “
> 
> ARF recognizes NARA – NARA does not recognize ARF, so who is dividing French Ring in America?
> ...


 
Craig, you are just Paroting a lot of what you have been fed! Kadi answered the question and It was about what I was thinking. What part about the rule being implemented AFTER a trial comitment was already made don't you understand?


What a bunch of Whiney AZZ bitches Oh Oh Oh, he had a chance to work with the decoy more than me!!!

Well, BOO Fu(king HOO!!!!


Ask you Mentor why it was OK when he was on the NARA BOD? :-\"


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

FRANKIE COWEN said:


> geoff
> 
> you said "we all know the founders were ex bod members" so what, maybe we tried to do things we thought were benificial for ringsport ,maybe we tried and reliezed the path nara was going with the new regime was not in the best intereest of ring int he usa, so we decided to go create a orgaazation thata follows the french so what why is that such a big isssue to anyone, What you never seen anyone sit on bod or a ceo for one company not like its vision and start there own thats so odd to you .
> im so tired of the same ol same oh, arf arf arf give it a rest, yes i was on the board yes i was a member for many many years and highly succesfull as a trainier handler and decoy so what. why does it always go back tot the founders of arf were ex bod members what does that got to do with the questions ask.I wil say this again i have nothing to hide if anyone wants to ask me what i thought why i left what my visions were just call me , dont just say im ex nara bod member that means nothing yes i was suspended for some bull **** as i feel it was a get even scheme, yes there were policies put into affect days before i got suspended to keep my dogs out, so i choose to stand up and do something about it,. Well next time you get wronged if you want to sit back no do shit and cry thats your choice i choose not to . i choose to stand up for what i believe, hate me for it i dont care.
> ...


Hey Frankie I never said I hate anyone including you, why would you insinuate that? 



FRANKIE COWEN said:


> you said "we all know the founders were ex bod members"


I did not say that ... I said


me said:


> _I thought it was quite interesting to see that the 3 people on the ARF www as founders were on last years NARA BOD. Division is what it is, and this past year has shown that the division with all the assorted political baggage that came with it (call it what you will) has *NOT* been good for the growth of our sport in all of North America._


I still stand by this statement as it is mine.. _"Division is what it is, and this past year has shown that the division with all the assorted political baggage that came with it (call it what you will) has *NOT* been good for the growth of our sport in all of North America." _And I still find it interesting that that the 3 founders of ARF were on last years NARA BOD. I just find it interesting *big deal* .. It isn't a witch hunt, I've got nothing to gain or lose by it. Interesting that's all.


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## Marcus Carroll (Aug 4, 2009)

No one from NARA is making a fuss about this. It is the ARF contingent that starts this stuff up. Why don't ARF Members concentrate on the ARF championship?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I can see why they would be afraid to say anything. Did the guy get asked for his decoy book ?? Since when does anyone get to ask for your decoy book ?? Since when does a dog get two score books ??

IF you look at our current political trend in the US of the politicians just doing whatever the hell they want, you can see that people have learned to conform, to just go along and not raise a stink. The select few that do are usually culled from the group one way or the other, valid point or not.

All the same arguements when Sch broke into different groups, but you can see the horrible effect that it has had on the growth of the sport. :roll:

Shady is shady, and quite frankly it is embarrassing to see grown people do silly shit. The least that should come out of this is that the two org. should at least recognize the others score books. What is the worst that would happen ?? What is happening ? Is the future not considered at all in these decisions ?? 15 years from now is anyone gonna give a shit ?? Not likely, and the recognition will happen regardless of whatever petty emotions between the two. Give over for ****s sake. 

I have not seen real growth in ring, no matter what the numbers put out say, as there are just as many people leaving the sport as there are coming in, and a lot of times this is just due to logistics. Give over for ****s sake.

I have enough PM's saying that Ring should grow up to convince me that there are people out there that are glad that I brought this shit up, and are calling people out on this petty shit.

Gotta figure that if people are this petty, a LOT of people will just go along so they are not the next casulty of war.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: 
I have two questions: 1. Does a BOD member get paid? 2. Was there ever a time when dog training was fun?

Yes, in a way the BOD members get more recognition, and thus more credibility in the sport. There are plenty of people that suck at training that have went political, and gained that way.

2, I have trained with you, was it sucking then ?? Did it suck when you asked me to work Buko ?? I thought you were learning and having fun. Sorry if it wasn't. I will try harder next time if this is the case, I think you could be a very good decoy in the future.


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote:
> I have two questions: 1. Does a BOD member get paid? 2. Was there ever a time when dog training was fun?
> 
> Yes, in a way the BOD members get more recognition, and thus more credibility in the sport. There are plenty of people that suck at training that have went political, and gained that way.
> ...


The rules are the rules.If you want to compete in NARA you have to follow the rules. if they ask for your score book -give it up. if they tell you not to put certain scores of organiztions(arf) they don't recognize in your book don't. If you are a DUES PAYING MEMBER of NARA you have a right to question the organization. NARA would appreciate the added money so your complaints can be processed. press 1 if you would like to pay by computer .2 if you are just a whining ass and 3 if you think the whole world is picking on you so you take your ball and go home.


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

Timothy Saunders said:


> The rules are the rules.If you want to compete in NARA you have to follow the rules. if they ask for your score book -give it up. if they tell you not to put certain scores of organiztions(arf) they don't recognize in your book don't. If you are a DUES PAYING MEMBER of NARA you have a right to question the organization. NARA would appreciate the added money so your complaints can be processed. press 1 if you would like to pay by computer .2 if you are just a whining ass and 3 if you think the whole world is picking on you so you take your ball and go home.


jeff didn't mean to put your quote


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

They don't get to tell you what goes in your scorebook. Maybe you didn't understand that point. A dog gets 1 scorebook for life. 

France has ok'd the formation of ARF, and NARA claims to follow France, so how is it they get to "recognize" or "not recognize" an organization that has been given the go ahead from France ??

PSA can tell everyone to go and **** themselves, as they are an entity unto themselves.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I have not seen real growth in ring, no matter what the numbers put out say, as there are just as many people leaving the sport as there are coming in, and a lot of times this is just due to logistics. Give over for ****s sake.
> 
> I have enough PM's saying that Ring should grow up to convince me that there are people out there that are glad that I brought this shit up, and are calling people out on this petty shit.
> 
> Gotta figure that if people are this petty, a LOT of people will just go along so they are not the next casulty of war.



Before NARA there was ARF and AFRA. I was just getting interested in ring sport around the time the 2 organizations merged so I do not know the membership numbers of the 2 organizations. I don't know the exact date of the merger either.

However, I would go and watch French Ring training and some trials at J.C. Balu's field. This was 1989-1990 and Henyk Demenet (famous costume maker now) would be at J.C.s Club helping with training. Henryk was a trial decoy back then. 

During this time period, NARA had over 300 members with the Lansing, Michigan Club being one of the largest clubs (20+ members). There were 2 clubs in Fontana, CA, 1 club in Palmdale, 1 club in Borrego Springs, a club up north (STARS - larger club). There were quite a few clubs, but still many states w/o ring at all.

Back then we could buy our dog's scorebooks directly from France. I think it's still possible, but not that common now to do so. So if I wanted an SCC book on my dog, I could have one or I could buy a NARA book.

I know in 1992, I was trialing at my first Championships and it was in Denver, CO and I competed with my Beauceron, Champion de la Loutre Noire, FRIII, MRIII (imported titled). At that Championships, there were 11 FRIIIs I believe. There were 2 competitors from France and 2-3 from Mexico as well as American teams. The judge was Michael Beyer. There were 2 French certified decoys and at least 1 American used at the trial. Beyer brought his decoy..I think it was Frank Germaine and also Ludovic Turbaine came with the Mexican team. There were many decoys trying out at the decoy selection (American and Mexican).

I hear they expect 10 FRIIIs at the Championships this year.

I remember the NARA National meeting (1992) in conjunction with the Championships (Denver, CO) with not fond memories. It was a very heated, nasty meeting which came close to blows. It was an eye opener. During that meeting DOB members were removed, banned and accused of many things by other members.

During the time period that I practiced FR in NARA there were many charges brought up on clubs and members. I saw many clubs disolved and people change back to Schutzhund or begin the newer protection sports that were forming (NAPD and so forth). The newsletter was full of this kind of stuff so much so that it wasn't something you could give to a person interest in FR as it was a turn off.

By the late 1990s, I believe NARA's membership was in the 100s of members. Most of the people that left whom I asked gave similar reasons as me: #1 the politics was overwhelming - it wasn't about the dogs and dog training anymore i.e. fun factor was gone. #2 logistics: difficulty finding good training decoys, long distant travel and infrequency of trials i.e. ring never seemed to get off it's feet. Schutzhund was referenced on how it was so much easier to find a club and local trials.

Was it the merger of the 2 organizations that started the downward spiral for ring? I joined just after so I can only hazard a guess. Right after the merger there were many members for a few years and then there was decline. Were there a lot of members at first because French Ring was the "new sport" on the block? But, the real problem is that it never has taken off enough to make it possible for many to participate in without a lot of sacrifice in other areas of their life.

I think it's important to look at sports that are successful for the answers. What are they doing differently? What made Schutzhund grow? There were political problems and growing pains, but Schutzhund survived and grew and there are many organizations and clubs where you can "play" Schutzhund unlike for the French Ring.


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

That is the point Jeff NARA does get to tell you what to put in your score book if you want to participate in their events. Ask the decoy who can't decoy in Nara . Ask a person with an arf score in their NARA score book. Once again because people don't think it is fair doesn't mean it can't be done. ask the government of the U.S. if all of the rules are fair since you like the politcal post


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I think you make some very valid points. Politics should be about advancing a sport, and making the logistics easier by promoting more clubs, having more seminars for the decoys, and making good dogs available to people that are serious.

I would like to see a return to DOG TRAINING and not who did what to who. I think that petty shit is one of the reasons I chose Mondio 7 years ago. 

Today I will be training with my friends and it will be fun and I am just going to ignore this silly shit. Should make the silly ****ers happy, as they can go back to their pinkie and the brain plans for taking over the world.........all twenty of them.

How is your parvo epidemic doing ?? LOL One of these days I will stop by and see if I can bring the epidemic home with me. : )


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I think you make some very valid points. Politics should be about advancing a sport, and making the logistics easier by promoting more clubs, having more seminars for the decoys, and making good dogs available to people that are serious.
> 
> I would like to see a return to DOG TRAINING and not who did what to who. I think that petty shit is one of the reasons I chose Mondio 7 years ago.
> 
> ...


MR has adopted many of the Belgian Ring aspects, which is more about and for the dog rather than the people. I applaud that. 

Competitors were training here over the weekend for a change of field. 3 years ago in Banning (Championships) puppies caught Parvo...shit happens...parvo is everywhere sad to say.

I think it was more about NOT having a neutral field! LOL No one could practice on my field if it was the site of the Championship. The blinds were to be completely relocated and it's not an easy field..it's large and we got some spooky stuff on it like 2 out-buildings and an old International! LOL The new board was asking the hosting club to change the field location for over 6 months...asking and asking to change it to Banning and not have it here..so they must of been psychic regarding the parvo...LOL 

BTW, the field is completely regulation and there were many trials held here in the 1990s. All under French judges.

It's easier for me to just go and watch a trial somewhere else and we were doing it as a favor to the local club to help out ring.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> How is your parvo epidemic doing ?? LOL One of these days I will stop by and see if I can bring the epidemic home with me. : )


There will be a Mondioring Seminar not far from me with a Swiss decoy "Juaquim". I think the dates are in December. It will be at a friend's ranch in Oceanside, which is 50 minutes away. We have an rv for guests.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Timothy Saunders said:


> That is the point Jeff NARA does get to tell you what to put in your score book if you want to participate in their events. Ask the decoy who can't decoy in Nara . Ask a person with an arf score in their NARA score book. Once again because people don't think it is fair doesn't mean it can't be done. ask the government of the U.S. if all of the rules are fair since you like the politcal post


The way it was explained to me was that the titles and scores from an ARF trial in any book are not recognized for NARA titles or points towards the average for the NARA championship, that's it. Two sides to the story as always.


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Geoff, there are always two sides to a coin for sure, but to hold it against people is simply bullshit. If ARF was such a bane, then why has ring always had so many problems growing ? That sort of mentality should say that PSA is not good for the growth of ring, so **** them, as well as Sch.
> 
> Maybe people think I am a problem child, God knows I am, but the fact of the matter is that all this fuss about a new organization is silly and petty.
> 
> Kyle, can two level one decoys do a trial where there are level three dogs competing ??



Just curious as to why an ARF member is so concerned with NARA functions? Both are separate organizations and what one does should not effect the other, right? What's the big deal:?: ARF is running strong, NARA is running strong, so live and let live. No harm, no foul.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Uh, who is it that is an ARF member ?? I am not. I just have been enjoying outing the absolutely completely stupid shit that is going on. 

I go to one seminar. Geez.


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## Bob Solimini (Aug 10, 2008)

Geoff,
Just to clarify what is happening between NARA and ARF pertaining to titles and scores.
NARA will not recognize ARF titles, so if you earn a Brevet and Ring 1 at an ARF trial according to NARA you would also have to earn a Brevet AGAIN at a NARA trial if you plan on competing in both organizations. According to the rules a dog can only PASS a Brevet once, and then they move on to Ring 1. 
I would not have a problem if NARA did not recognize the scores earned at an ARF trial to be used towards a NARA Championship. That would be perfectly acceptable. But to not recognize an earned TITLE from a French Judge is crazy in my opinion.
There is also a rule that a dog is only assigned one scorebook. That scorebook follows the dog if it is sold. According to NARA they will allow 2 scorebooks and they will not allow ARF scores to be recorded in a scorebook PURCHASED from NARA.
You can read NARA’s decision at this link http://www.ringsport.org/arf_msg.php 

I am not looking to start a debate, or argue this point. The NARA BoD can do whatever they want, and it is the prerogative of the members to allow this to happen. I chose to be involved with the new organization to promote French Ring, training and trialing with my dogs. I could care less what NARA does, because I cannot see myself involved with NARA anytime soon! 
*I am just trying to clarify the “rumor” you heard.*

Bob Solimini


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Bob Solimini said:


> *I am just trying to clarify the “rumor” you heard.*


Thanks Bob that's what I understood anyways, just that the ARF scores in 'any' scorebook are not recognized for NARA titles or championship points. 

BTW I never got to thank you personally but it yourself indirectly with your videos of your old dog Padok that got me interested in Ring. Thanks for planting the seed of that passion.


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## Bob Solimini (Aug 10, 2008)

You're welcome... Anytime I can get a person interested in the sport I LOVE, is a great thing for me!!!!
The unfortunate thing is that now you also see all the baggage that comes along with it. LOL


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Baggage .. it's all how you pack it! LOL! I comment because I love the sport, but as Jeff Oehlson says nothing better than just rock and roll training and getting ready for a trial with a bunch of your friends, that's where it is at for me that's the part I love.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Too bad the powers that be cannot see that.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Uh, who is it that is an ARF member ?? I am not. I just have been enjoying outing the absolutely completely stupid shit that is going on.
> 
> I go to one seminar. Geez.


 
No, you have been bitching about what you perceive as "stupid shit" based on what you have been spoon fed. There is Outing to be done on BOTH sides it that is your cup-o-tea!


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## Tim Lynam (Jun 12, 2009)

As before, this situation is personal. Call it Politics if you need too. School Yard Politics.

Follow the money. There has always been 2 different reasons to "Love" Ring. Money always wins out over the altruist.

The Object Guard is the signature exercise of French Ring. How Freudian...


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## Tamara McIntosh (Jul 14, 2009)

Debbie Skinner said:


> I think it's important to look at sports that are successful for the answers. What are they doing differently? What made Schutzhund grow? There were political problems and growing pains, but Schutzhund survived and grew and there are many organizations and clubs where you can "play" Schutzhund unlike for the French Ring.


My personal opinion on why sch has grown (in the USA) is the all breed opportunities to attend a world championship (AWDF, DVG, as well as breed specific internation opportunity). People WANT the opportunities to compete abroad. I have talked with several people who train for sch and they would switch if the opportunity was there. I also think this is what has stunted sch in Canada as well, having sch ruled by a GSD club.

French ring in particular has no world championship (that is functional and planned yearly). At least mondio offers the world championship opportunity to ringers. Even if it only offers the opportunity to lose, a world championship is something for everyone training to someday aspire to.

As well pretty much every breed has their own sch world championship but very few include ring at the world level (the FMBB is the only breed club that offers it I think). So even if you are not quite good enough for the all breed worlds you still have another opportunity to compete against your own breed at a world level.

For myself, I have dobies and compete in ring. So the IDC really doesn't offer me anything, UDC, ADA DPCC or DPCA for that matter. However the French Dobermann club offers both french and mondio ring at their grand prix, and I would LOVE to get there next year to compete!

Tamara McIntosh


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## Craig Wood (Dec 9, 2008)

Tamara McIntosh said:


> French ring in particular has no world championship (that is functional and planned yearly). At least mondio offers the world championship opportunity to ringers. Even if it only offers the opportunity to lose, a world championship is something for everyone training to someday aspire to.
> 
> 
> 
> Tamara McIntosh


Tamara

Wouldn't it be nice to raise the level of ring on this side of the pond so that it would not be just an opportunity to lose. 
My plans are to compete on a world level, bold plans for someone who just witnessed his first trial 2 months ago and has never trialed in any dog sport. 
I am happy with my progress thus far. I train weekly with Rick and I am happy to only drive 300 miles to do so. 
I want to practice with and trial against the best so that some day I can beat the best. If that day never comes I will die knowing I have given it my best shot and my father god rest his soul would be proud of me for that.
So here is to some day meeting you there Tamera I wish you god speed in your quest.

Craig


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

I have participated in NARA in the past, and love FR....and am looking forward to participating in FR again, and *definately interested in ARF. * Question- if I participated in ARF and obtained my Level 1 or a leg of my Level one- I have heard it is not recognized by NARA-so if I then participated in a Nara trial, I would be going for my first leg as far as Nara would be concerned? is that right? So, if later I participate wtih Nara again.... Do you disclose this to the Judge, that the dog did obtain his Level whatever previously with ARF under X judge? finally....If the scores of ARF are written in my Nara score book- does that disqualify the book as far as Nara is concerned? I believe ARF does recognize the dog's accomplishments with Nara correct??? Is there a legitimate reason that Nara is not doing the same, if it is technically the same program the dog is being tested in?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Ok Kyle, name me one time in the history of the French ring in the US where there was no backbiting childish power plays and just an honest attempt to get more clubs without whoring it out.

Spoon fed ?? I worked with Jimmy Vanhove for a few days and everything I have ever said about how lame US decoys are became even more apparent.

Rick has a GSD from Laurent that I worked on Jimmy. First time I ever worked that dog, first time I worked with Jimmy. Holy shit he was great. I am not the guy that gets all worked up over shit like that, and man, I wish you could have been there to see just how smooth he was.

Too bad you are allowing silly politics, or dislike of someone to rob you of an opportunity like that. If I had this guy in my club, Buko would be level 3 for about 4 years now.

He barely speaks english, I barely speak eng.....er french, and I didn't have to tell him shit. That speaks volumes to me. The dog got some real good work. I will spoon feed you that information. : )


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Tamara McIntosh said:


> My personal opinion on why sch has grown (in the USA) is the all breed opportunities to attend a world championship (AWDF, DVG, as well as breed specific internation opportunity). People WANT the opportunities to compete abroad. I have talked with several people who train for sch and they would switch if the opportunity was there. I also think this is what has stunted sch in Canada as well, having sch ruled by a GSD club.
> 
> French ring in particular has no world championship (that is functional and planned yearly). At least mondio offers the world championship opportunity to ringers. Even if it only offers the opportunity to lose, a world championship is something for everyone training to someday aspire to.
> 
> ...


That makes a lot of sense. I know with the Beauceron, there is the French National Speciality (National Elevage) and it offers a French Ring Championship for Beaucerons. I've been to it a couple times. However, the event is more geared toward the conformation ring than the French Ring. I remember a couple years back that they set up the French Ring field in the worse terrain that was sloping toward a marshy area whereas the conformation rings were on the better footing.

I think the GSD and Belgians do the same thing and as you mention the Dobies and possibly all the "breeds on the list for FR" do offer a FR trial at their specialties in France..anyone know? Also, there are a couple other special ring trials held in France. One was in October called the Inter-Races open to all different breeds and there is another one that is called the "Challenge of the French Shepherds + Bouviers" for the French breeds and Bouviers. All of these are breed specific except for the "Inter-Races".


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

"Ok Kyle, name me one time in the history of the French ring in the US where there was no backbiting childish power plays and just an honest attempt to get more clubs without whoring it out."

The only place I see this continue to Happen NOW is with some of the ARF cry babies and YOU that keep trying to stir the pot. FR IS growing.

"Spoon fed ?? I worked with Jimmy Vanhove for a few days and everything I have ever said about how lame US decoys are became even more apparent."

LOL, so you spend a few days with one of the Best in France and all of a Sudden we all in the US suck! LOL Marcus posted Club trial video from France demonstrating the SUCKNESS there too..](*,)

"Too bad you are allowing silly politics, or dislike of someone to rob you of an opportunity like that."

WTF are you talking about? I don't "dislike" anyone I don't like Bull SHIT!, How could I be robbed of an oportunity. The oportunity was missed by me because of Distance and Cost, Not that I wouldn't go.


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## Billy DiSciullo (Oct 4, 2009)

Hey Kyle,

First off let me start by saying that YOU are the biggest baby of the whole lot of us!! You talk a lot as if you know what the hell is going on...you my friend no nothing!! These things that are being descussed here on the board don't even effect you!! You have to be active in Ring on a training and trial field to be not just on your computer!! Talk is cheap and easy!! Put it on the field and become part of the the sport and then MAYBE some one will care about what you have to say!!

Good Luck at the championship this weekend...let us all know how you score!!


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Billy DiSciullo said:


> Hey Kyle,
> 
> First off let me start by saying that YOU are the biggest baby of the whole lot of us!! You talk a lot as if you know what the hell is going on...you my friend no nothing!! These things that are being descussed here on the board don't even effect you!! You have to be active in Ring on a training and trial field to be not just on your computer!! Talk is cheap and easy!! Put it on the field and become part of the the sport and then MAYBE some one will care about what you have to say!!
> 
> Good Luck at the championship this weekend...let us all know how you score!!


 
Not sure what you are talking about, please spell it out? What Talk? I did several trials the last few years in Ring With some good and not so good but still VG scores Both Mondio and FR.

Baby? I am not the one whining about NARA this NARA that, I DO know what the Hell is going on!

Maybe you should Muzzle your friend Craig when he starts on about it, I guess he has the experience you speak of?........LOL

I think what you fail to understand it I don't give a shit what you, ARF do, just get off of NARA's AZZ about everything.

BTW I am not trialing at the championships, My bitch has not had enough recent training and my Male will be 10 Tomorrow and has a injury. I AM bringing them if needed for the DSS if needed though!

PS: I guess they have a serious "effect" on the Master Shit Stirrer Jeff????


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## Billy DiSciullo (Oct 4, 2009)

Kyle,

If you read my second post you would know how I feel about NARA
As for Craig, he's done more in the short time I've known him concerning the growth and expantion of Ring Sport then you have the oh so many years you have been around or should I say kinda been around! LOL

Spent more time training your dog and maybe you'll feel better about yourself!

Good Bye and Good Luck!


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Billy DiSciullo said:


> Kyle,
> 
> If you read my second post you would know how I feel about NARA
> As for Craig, he's done more in the short time I've known him concerning the growth and expantion of Ring Sport then you have the oh so many years you have been around or should I say kinda been around! LOL
> ...


 
yeh, it takes a lot to be someone's internet Bitch!

Been aroud dog sports almost as long as you Billy, never been someones Club Lacky though!


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## Bob Solimini (Aug 10, 2008)

Kyle Billy is in my club and I HOPE you are not starting to say shit about me!!!!


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Bob Solimini said:


> Kyle Billy is in my club and I HOPE you are not starting to say shit about me!!!!


 
No Bob, not about you or your Club and I don't think either of you are the Cry Babies.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Been aroud dog sports almost as long as you Billy, never been someones Club Lacky though!

Quote: Originally Posted by Bob Solimini 
Kyle Billy is in my club and I HOPE you are not starting to say shit about me!!!!

No Bob, not about you or your Club and I don't think either of you are the Cry Babies.

Rollover. Is it a nice view from your back ?? HA HA

How can you defend silly shit so badly ??


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Been aroud dog sports almost as long as you Billy, never been someones Club Lacky though!
> 
> Quote: Originally Posted by Bob Solimini
> Kyle Billy is in my club and I HOPE you are not starting to say shit about me!!!!
> ...


 
It's called History Jeff, I am sure you know what it means!


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## Craig Wood (Dec 9, 2008)

Kyle Sprag said:


> yeh, it takes a lot to be someone's internet Bitch!
> 
> Been aroud dog sports almost as long as you Billy, never been someones Club Lacky though!



Kyle
I am not sure where your animosity towards me is rooted.
My only communication with you EVER was to offer you a free ride from the Pittsburgh airport to the free French Ring Decoy Seminar hosted by a national / world level trainer/ handler being taught by the number one ranked French Ring Decoy in France.
If this is how you respond to such an offer might I suggest you work on your people skills?


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

<insert a big arse 'GROAN' here> 

Very tiring listening to all of this .. it really isn't good for the sport all the petty sniping at each other, on a public board none the less. 

To anyone reading the innuendo .. the sport DOESN'T reflect that. It is a fantastic sport for your dogs and worth it to check it out wherever, whenever and with whoever you can. 

Peace!


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Geoff Empey said:


> To anyone reading the innuendo .. the sport DOESN'T reflect that. It is a fantastic sport for your dogs and worth it to check it out wherever, whenever and with whoever you can.
> 
> Peace!


I second that! As a person new to the sport, but not new to dogs, I'm having loads of fun. The generosity of the people helping me train my dogs is amazing. It's been a great opportunity to meet and learn from some very talented people. I'm totally hooked on the sport now!


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Craig, I have nothing agianst you and hope you reach all your goals. I do appreciate the invitation would have like to have been there.

But

Bellow what you wrote is quite one sided and skewed and reads the same ole same ole party line. This questioning NARA = Bad, AFR = Good shit is getting old.

Remember, this crap isn't brought up over and over by someone promoting NARA!

That's all.




Craig Wood said:


> Quote from Kadi
> “It's really quite simple. NARA does not recognize ARF. “
> 
> ARF recognizes NARA – NARA does not recognize ARF, so who is dividing French Ring in America?
> ...


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