# Dogs´Awareness of Bite Equipment



## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

Have any of you had or worked with dogs that seemed to know that bite sleeves and suits protected the decoy? 

Mike Schoonbrood has taken many bites from my leashed dog wearing only a sleeve. Although my dog was been known to do this in the past, he did NOT (thankfully) retarget on Mike´s leg. Later on Mike and I went in together and purchased a bite suit. The first time Mike put that thing on my dog was on Mike and, lo and behold, retargeted viciously on his protected leg. I remember Mike saying that my dog knew NOT to bite him there when he wasn´t wearing any protection. 

With other "decoys" my leashed dog would bite the sleeve and then try to go up and beyond the sleeve to the shoulder. He did barely graze a guy there. Another time he was staked out and a PSD trainer began working him. Again, my dog bit the sleeve and then released and tried to bite him on his upper-arm/shoulder area, where the sleeve ended. The guy jumped back and shrieked like a little girl that my dog was crazy and he wouldn´t work him anymore.  

Anyway, I was just wondering how common this is.


----------



## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Depends on the Nerve and presure put on the dog. IMO a decent dog knows what's up, A solid dog should know the difference.


----------



## Andy Larrimore (Jan 8, 2008)

Check the amount of pressure being put on the dog. Teach the dog to bite full, hard and CALM. This will really help make the dog go further in its training. I would also keep back pressure on the leash while the decoy pulls away during the bite. This build endurance, full grips and helps stop retargeting.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Dogs know the difference.


----------



## Eros Kopliku (Jan 30, 2008)

I was talking to one of our helpers about this a while ago. According to him, herders know the difference, which is why some do protection work on their own dogs.


----------



## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

I'm not really sure they know the difference. I think they have been taught to bite here or there. Question , A dog that knows the difference , would he make a PSD???? Another question, A hidden sleeve, does the dog know?????


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

My thoughts on the hidden sleeve
It's more about the presentation then if the sleeve is in view or not. 
MOST times I've seen hidden sleeve work there is still a presentation of the arm.


----------



## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

Andy Larrimore said:


> ...and helps stop retargeting.


Just a side-note, there are some in the PPD community that feel a PPD should be allowed to fight "naturally" and, therefore, should NOT be conditioned to bite and hold, etc.


----------



## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Patrick Murray said:


> Just a side-note, there are some in the PPD community that feel a PPD should be allowed to fight "naturally" and, therefore, should NOT be conditioned to bite and hold, etc.


99% of the time that is just an excuse for poor nerve, poor training and poor helper work.


----------



## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

Kyle Sprag said:


> 99% of the time that is just an excuse for poor nerve, poor training and poor helper work.


Are you saying that the "natural" way a dog would fight a man is to grab, hold and not let go?


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Patrick Murray said:


> Just a side-note, there are some in the PPD community that feel a PPD should be allowed to fight "naturally" and, therefore, should NOT be conditioned to bite and hold, etc.


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Patrick Murray said:


> Just a side-note, there are some in the PPD community that feel a PPD should be allowed to fight "naturally" and, therefore, should NOT be conditioned to bite and hold, etc.


That would be my chance to smash him over the head or maybe chock the life out of him. Though I haven't gone hand to hand combat with a dog I damn sure ain't going to curl up and let him eat me.
When I was a kid I had a paper route and I got bit I was collecting money from a customer and her dog blew out the door ran past me and took a leek got done came over to me and bit me I hit him in the head with my collecting book the thing was held together with 2 bolts and wing nuts one of the bolts went rite in to his eye and poked his eye out.:twisted: I was prolly 10 years old. :mrgreen:


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Kyle Sprag said:


> 99% of the time that is just an excuse for poor nerve, poor training and poor helper work.


I think you nailed it
If I were to send my dog on someone it better damn well bite and hold.


----------



## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

Mike Scheiber said:


> That would be my chance to smash him over the head or maybe chock the life out of him.


Yea, sure you would Mike. A committed, hardcore dog could bite the shit out of you multiple times before you could do anything. I know. I´ve been on the receiving end of dogs like that. On one occasion a female Dutch Shepherd went off on me. If I had not been wearing a bite suit I would have suffered multiple, serious bites on my arm, chest, stomach and leg. And that was all in a matter of five or six seconds. This dog was not trained to bite and hold. This dog attacked and fought me naturally and bit wherever it felt it could hurt me the most. 

Oh yea, there was nothing "nervy" about this bitch. She was absolutely confident and out to DESTROY me. 

But believe what you like. It makes no difference to me. 

Thanks for the feedback.


----------



## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Mike Scheiber said:


> one of the bolts went rite in to his eye and poked his eye out.


And that is the exact reason my grandson aint gettin a red rider bb gun for christmas.


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Patrick Murray said:


> Yea, sure you would Mike. A committed, hardcore dog could bite the shit out of you multiple times before you could do anything. I know. I´ve been on the receiving end of dogs like that. On one occasion a female Dutch Shepherd went off on me. If I had not been wearing a bite suit I would have suffered multiple, serious bites on my arm, chest, stomach and leg. And that was all in a matter of five or six seconds. This dog was not trained to bite and hold. This dog attacked and fought me naturally and bit wherever it felt it could hurt me the most.
> 
> Oh yea, there was nothing "nervy" about this bitch. She was absolutely confident and out to DESTROY me.
> 
> ...


Well hell you didn't say it was one of them rapid strategic thinking bite dogs.:wink:


----------



## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Patrick Murray said:


> Yea, sure you would Mike. A committed, hardcore dog could bite the shit out of you multiple times before you could do anything. I know. I´ve been on the receiving end of dogs like that. On one occasion a female Dutch Shepherd went off on me. If I had not been wearing a bite suit I would have suffered multiple, serious bites on my arm, chest, stomach and leg. And that was all in a matter of five or six seconds. This dog was not trained to bite and hold. This dog attacked and fought me naturally and bit wherever it felt it could hurt me the most.
> 
> Oh yea, there was nothing "nervy" about this bitch. She was absolutely confident and out to DESTROY me.
> 
> ...


My question would be why was the dog's threashold so low as to view you in a bite suit enough of a REAL threat to "go off" on you?

The real character of a dog comes in when the dog is Loosing a fight.

As for "natural" fighting style IMO it has to do with genetics, breed and training.


----------



## Kevin Powell (Aug 15, 2008)

Hi Mike, I am not necessarily saying that training a bite and hold isn't a preferable way to train, but wouldn't you have an easier time of "smashing him over the head" if he was on a bite and hold rather than what Patrick is describing? 



Mike Scheiber said:


> That would be my chance to smash him over the head or maybe chock the life out of him. Though I haven't gone hand to hand combat with a dog I damn sure ain't going to curl up and let him eat me.
> When I was a kid I had a paper route and I got bit I was collecting money from a customer and her dog blew out the door ran past me and took a leek got done came over to me and bit me I hit him in the head with my collecting book the thing was held together with 2 bolts and wing nuts one of the bolts went rite in to his eye and poked his eye out.:twisted: I was prolly 10 years old. :mrgreen:


----------



## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

If you're looking for a real deal PPD i believe it HAS to have low thresholds and be anti-social. When Monty was 7 months old he spit the rag out and missed the decoys neck by a millimeter, all the people went "WHOA", we stopped and talked about it, he hated people, dogs, cats etc. He had zero thresholds, you could kick, slap, punch whatever, he simply didn't give a shit. A hidden suit was required vs a hidden sleeve cause he'd tear you up, stomach, balls, face , whatever was available. he'd get his ass kicked by someone wearing a suit, didn't matter, stayed right in there. Very dangerous dog, would've bit a little kid , a grown man or an old lady, just didn't matter, he was simply born that way, no training neccessary, no agitation, no nothing, Weak nerved? nope, something wrong with his brain, maybe. Hard dog to own due to management but he was the real deal as far as protecting went. Do i want another one like him? Not really, lots of liability and i prefer a social animal. This is what i believe to be a good protection dog and i know most everyone will disagree but there it is,


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Kevin Powell said:


> Hi Mike, I am not necessarily saying that training a bite and hold isn't a preferable way to train, but wouldn't you have an easier time of "smashing him over the head" if he was on a bite and hold rather than what Patrick is describing?


Ya know what I have no clue what I would be doing if a dog was on me. My guess there would be blood, piss and shit everywhere "mine" I tell you what if he let go of me and I would slam a door hit it with something or if I had a gun shoot the bastard or run like a mofo who knows. If he stayed on me I would think I would be doing what ever I could to get it off of me.
Another story when I was a bigger kid I hauled garbage in the summer time there were a couple of dogs that wanted me and wanted me bad. One day this big shepherd mix pushed the fence open and came at me like a rabid maniac. All I had was a trash can to fight the bastard off it gave me enough time to jump in the hopper of the truck. The fu*k%er didn't get me ether. :evil:


----------



## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Al Curbow said:


> If you're looking for a real deal PPD i believe it HAS to have low thresholds and be anti-social. When Monty was 7 months old he spit the rag out and missed the decoys neck by a millimeter, all the people went "WHOA", we stopped and talked about it, he hated people, dogs, cats etc. He had zero thresholds, you could kick, slap, punch whatever, he simply didn't give a shit. A hidden suit was required vs a hidden sleeve cause he'd tear you up, stomach, balls, face , whatever was available. he'd get his ass kicked by someone wearing a suit, didn't matter, stayed right in there. Very dangerous dog, would've bit a little kid , a grown man or an old lady, just didn't matter, he was simply born that way, no training neccessary, no agitation, no nothing, Weak nerved? nope, something wrong with his brain, maybe. Hard dog to own due to management but he was the real deal as far as protecting went. Do i want another one like him? Not really, lots of liability and i prefer a social animal. This is what i believe to be a good protection dog and i know most everyone will disagree but there it is,


Well what good is a PP dog if you can't take him/her everywhere with you. LOL


----------



## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

I hear what you're saying Kyle but my point is that a real deal protection dog probably won't be best in a crowd etc. He was quite the creature. I guess another point is that expecting a dog to be fluffy then turn into cujo and back into fluffy isn't the norm. If you really really need a PPD he'd be my choice, that's all i'm getting at, lol


----------



## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

AL, I understand what you mean. I have had some real dicks, some all bark and some all bite. In the end I believe PP is situational as much as anything. If it gets the job done then good.


----------



## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Al, how was that dog with you and the family?


----------



## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

Kyle, how would an untrained dog fight a man? Would it bite and hold like a PSD or Schutzhund dog?


----------



## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> My thoughts on the hidden sleeve
> It's more about the presentation then if the sleeve is in view or not.
> MOST times I've seen hidden sleeve work there is still a presentation of the arm.


Bob I understand what you are saying about the presentation of the arm. The hidden sleeve is a test to where there is no sleeve. A test that says the dog is not equipment oriented. He can't see a hidden sleeve. If he's coming for the bite on the man and not the equipment then you have to present your protected parts. I know that if a dog is coming at me with no protective equipment, I'm going to cover my most vital parts ( Head and Neck ). When I do this both of my arms are coming up to protect. It's not a test for the dog to bite a presented body part but a test to see if the dog will bite without equipment.


----------



## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Al I agree that that dog would be the best dog to bite someone. Here goes but I don't think he would be the best protection dog. Here is why, A protection dog has got to go where you go, be very Obediant, understand a threat when he sees it. He can not be the dog that is out for everyone. He's got to be social until shit hits the fan, then turn into the dog that will bite. I don't care if he bites and holds or bites everywhere. I just want time to get to safty or my weapon.


----------



## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Mike, why is it that dogs all seem to want to attack you, anyway? :-k


----------



## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

Lee,
He did a Joe Thiesman on his rear leg and we chose not to try multible surgerys or amputation. He was great with everyone who lived in the house, that was it though. No touching. Francesco (the breeder) gently took the leash and tried walking away with him at 6 months old, i told him it'd be bad, Monty stared at him and when he said "c'mon Monty" that was all it took, up the leash trying to eat his face off, bad situation all around, sharp pup turned into sharp adult


Jerry, 
He was very obedient but with cellophane thresholds. I don't think dogs are smart enough to discern a threat unless it's a demonstrative threat. I'm also aware that people have different views on protection in regards to dogs, you met my Marek, he was a social dog with high thresholds that would bite, but a person could've came up behind me and bonked me on the head if they were so inclined, that couldn't have happened in a million years with Monty, he was hyper aware of surroundings. If i told Marek "watch him" or anything like that he'd turn on, Monty was just always "on",


----------



## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Patrick Murray said:


> Kyle, how would an untrained dog fight a man? Would it bite and hold like a PSD or Schutzhund dog?


what I wrote earlier, IMO it depends on the dog, breed, training, nerve, experinece etc....

There are few to NO "untrainied" dog that will fight a man.


----------



## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

Kyle Sprag said:


> 99% of the time that is just an excuse for poor nerve, poor training and poor helper work.


Ok, Kyle. I´m just trying to understand something. I said that there are some in the ppd community that feel a dog should be allowed to fight "naturally" and therefore, retarget as it sees fit and NOT be CONDITIONED to bite and hold. In other words, allow the dog to take advantage of an opportunity to hurt his opponet if and when the opportunity presents itself. 

Anyway, let´s take a mature, seemingly confident, balanced GSD that has not had an iota of training in bitework. One day a bad guy assaults the woman of the home and the dog comes charging in and attacks. Since the dog has had zero training, the dog would bite based on its instincts, right? So if the dog bites and holds then it may have "good" nerves, but if the dog retargets then it may have "poor" nerves, is that what you´re saying? 

I watch MMA and I see these dudes trying to hit the other guys in their head, ribs, stomach, etc. Are they "weak nerved" too? Or are they just trying to hit the other guy where they think they have a chance to cause some damage? 

If a wolf is about to be gored by a buffalo its attaking, would it be "weak nerved" of the wolf to release in order to retarget on its prey? 

Again, I´m just trying to learn from you and understand why it is that dogs that "retarget" have "weak nerves". Thanks again for the enlightenment.


----------



## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Al, Marek A super dog.
Just like Kyle said, very few dogs out there untrained that will fight a man. What I believe is that a dog must be trained to bite AND he must be trained to protect you even though you have been hit and knocked out. This also must be trained and Marek WOULD have done this if trained to do it. If people can train a poodle to stand up on it's front legs and walk Then we can train a dog to protect even if we've been knocked out.


----------



## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Patrick you are right about the wolf getting another bite to get the advantage. He does that because at that time he just got put on the defence. When a dog or person gets on the defence it's because he's scared and don't want to be hurt. You get nervy when you're scared. MMA is not the same thing. They do that for self gain of MONEY. Dogs could care less about money


----------



## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

It´s about tactics, Jerry. A wolf comes off the bite of the bison to avoid being killed. It´s self preservation. Once the danger of being gored is gone the wolf can attack again. 

An MMA fighter is not "conditioned" to do one thing, he does a multiple of things to beat his opponet.

What´s "weak nerved" about a dog that uses similar tactics to hurt his opponet where he is weak and, if necessary, to protect itself from punishment from its adversary? 

Whether or not an untrained dog would attack is beside the point. The question was, IF it did attack, would it bite and hold or might it retarget. There are likely plenty of examples of untrained dogs doing just that. Kyle made the statement that dogs that retarget are "weak nerved". I don´t know how he knows this because, as I mentioned previously in this thread, I personally have had PPD dogs attack me that delivered multiple, viscious bites. They weren´t biting me out of fear, etc., they were biting to F_ _ K me up! So I´m not understanding how he came to the conclusion that dogs that retarget are "weak nerved". Maybe he or someone else here can educate me on this supposed fact.


----------



## David Scholes (Jul 12, 2008)

Patrick Murray said:


> It´s about tactics, Jerry. A wolf comes off the bite of the bison to avoid being killed. It´s self preservation. Once the danger of being gored is gone the wolf can attack again.
> 
> An MMA fighter is not "conditioned" to do one thing, he does a multiple of things to beat his opponet.
> 
> ...


Here's a clip of a wolf killing an elk. Looks to me like quick bites are given when there is danger of being injured then bite and hold when in a safe position.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8wrtk_4rLQ
The first minute of this also shows bite & hold on an elk. But you won't see them hold on to a grizzly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pd7yTRnYzg

This indicates to me the bite and hold is done when there is confidence but quick bites when there is perceived danger.


----------



## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

David Scholes said:


> This indicates to me the bite and hold is done when there is confidence but quick bites when there is perceived danger.


So the release and retarget of the bite IS or is NOT about weak nerves?


----------



## David Scholes (Jul 12, 2008)

Patrick Murray said:


> So the release and retarget of the bite IS or is NOT about weak nerves?


I believe the release and retarget is due to a fear of being injured. Fear is sometimes justified and appropriate but if there is never a time for a calm full bite, yes I would say weak nerves or lack of confidence or presence of fear. Even the shift to the throat is based on fear of dinner getting away. I'm not basing this on just sport but also hunting dogs and predator observations.

Had a neighbor lady Saturday approach me with her golden on a leash while cleaning a rental house. She wasn't sure what I was up to so brought the dog along for protection, she thought the dog was tough but the aggression towards me was all fear based. At least it didn't run away, but hackles up and jumping in/out give away the fear. The fear in the dog gives an assailant more of a chance to dominate and win.

I suppose in some situations fear based aggression is better than no aggression or running away. Confident aggression is more clear minded and easier for handler to control and tougher for assailant to conquer. 

Other opinions? Please someone let me know if I'm off base. I still have a lot to learn.


----------



## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

I agree with you David. I believe that a dog that chooses to retarget may do so to increase its advantage. Are there some that retarget out of fear or "weak nerves"? I believe so. But there are confident dogs that retarget as a tactic and in those cases it has absolutely nothing to do with "weak nerves". I´m not suggesting a dog should or shouldn´t be trained this way. I´m simply saying that a dog that does this is not necessarily "weak nerved". It is erroneous to make a blanket statement that 99% of dogs that retarget have "weak nerves, poor training", etc.


----------



## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Kevin Powell said:


> Hi Mike, I am not necessarily saying that training a bite and hold isn't a preferable way to train, but wouldn't you have an easier time of "smashing him over the head" if he was on a bite and hold rather than what Patrick is describing?


LOL Smack away on my dog, I'll give you the metal bar to do it. That thick head doesn't register pain and you'll probably only piss him off causing yourself more hurt when the knock goes through his skull into your bone he's biting down on. Doiiiing!#-o I doubt anybody not on some derious dope is going to withstand that much bite pressure and lug 100lbs of dog around for long. I'm betting knees will buckle. Screaming like a little girl may also apply.

As to the original question I think any dog not totally retarded, knows the difference betweeen suit and no suit or sleeve. I agree about presentation and aggitation when it comes to the hidden. I don't see many dogs bitting a hidden, passive, on the first go round. :lol: A normal dog sees bitting a man as taboo and that wall has to be taken down brick by brick. Some dogs blow through that wall, others not so much but still normal dogs...

I have seen some crazy ass Dutchies. These dogs don't seem to see man on the same level most dogs do.


----------



## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Patrick Murray said:


> Kyle, how would an untrained dog fight a man? Would it bite and hold like a PSD or Schutzhund dog?


Depends on the dog. Mine has how many generations of calm gripping full mouth bites that stick like glue, strait out of the box, that's what he did and still does.


----------



## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

As far as the equipment goes…. Pay attention to the dog’s bark and body language. If there is equipment involved the dog will give you every indication that he is operating in prey. Take the equipment away and work the dog in civil and note the changes.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Patrick, get someone to repeatedly punch you dog in the head, while at the same time kicking you in the balls.

This is the proper way to train a dog to do civil work. When you cannot take getting kicked in the balls anymore, then the civil work is over.

Taking off the equipment just makes you move a bit faster. Also, people shape this exersize just like everything else, they don't let off the dog until it shows it's war face.

You guys are retards. I mean that sincerely. If you cannot figure out that PPD people are 99% of the reason that sport dog people have problems from the public.

PPD people are amazingly insecure little nightmares. They come in all shapes and sizes, but are afraid for their own lives. They live in this fantasy land that the boogey man is out to get them.

Let me help you out. If the boogey man is out to get you, your dog is gonna get shot, and then they are gonna shoot you. It is very simple. They will even wait for you to pass by so they can shoot you in the back.

All PPD tough guys when their wrecked POS dog comes off the bite and is a safety hazzard, think their dogs are bad asses.

Your dog is a nerve bag if after a couple of hundred sessions with a sleeve the shitter comes off and goes for the new guy.

You want the Gods honest truth??? Your dog is a shitter. Kill the piece of shit and go get a dog like Al's dog Monty.


----------



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

IF all PPD folks are insecure and the training is a joke, then what is the function of Mondio Ring? The sport version for what? Sport is sport and street applications are as they may be intended. Never seen too many sport dogs make the ranks of "rank street/patrol" dog list! Can't broadbrush this for me...:mrgreen: 

Yep, dogs look at equipment and they look at the person as the "equipment" too.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Howard, remember the ass wuppin I gave you the last time you thought you had a point?????? LOL


----------



## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Jeff that was just wrong. Monty is or was a freak of nature and shouldn't have seen the light of day IMO. Can you say L I A B I L I T Y? Not to mention wouldn't be there when you need him, like at the mall parking lot or jogging in the park. Any dog with "zero" threshold doesn't belong in the family environment and I'd donate his ass to centry duty in the military, if they didn't want him he'd get a bullet and a hole to rest in. 

Sorry Al if that hurts but we can just chalk that up to personal preference and my love of all I own and my desire to keep it. My dogs got a fuse a mile long and I like it that way, it should NOT be the dogs decision to bite anybody, he goes on your word only. I reserve the right for your dog to protect you when your knocked out but what if it's the police or a paramedic there to help you? Something tells me your dog would have bit anybody and not bothered to "persieve" a real threat. Call me crazy but that's just a dog that likes to bite people, not a PPD.


----------



## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

Michelle,
Monty would have had to be shot if i needed help, you're right about that. As for liability if you want a ppd you take on liability, simple fact. If your dog has a fuse a mile long that's great for a sport dog or family dog but......... if you really NEED a ppd get a Monty, lol.

I told my wife that somebody wrote that Monty was a freak of nature, she replied "yeah, and?" LOL


----------



## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

Michelle Kehoe said:


> I reserve the right for your dog to protect you when your knocked out .


Try that in training some time.... 98% of dogs will attack their handler. It's an interesting excercise.


----------



## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Matthew Grubb said:


> Try that in training some time.... 98% of dogs will attack their handler. It's an interesting excercise.


Good Point, few people train fighting allong side their own dogs and even less while getting their azz kicked. (on the bottom or incapacitated).


----------



## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Kyle and Mathew, we do train for this and have NEVER had a dog bite the handler. Training is training. If it is presented the right way the handler will not get bit by his own dog. Now, the wacko may bite and that's the dog that has no business being train for PPD. In our training 0% of the handlers have been bit by their dog.

Michelle, That PPD wouldn't know the difference between the bad guy and the guy trying to give aid. If I'm the one knocked out bleeding and will die if I'm not attended to then by all means shoot my dog. Regardless if the bad guy kills my dog as I am seeking safety or the police do it to save my life then the dog has done his job. He protected so that I might live. My and my familys HERO. They can't replace me (well I quess they can but not me as a person) I can replace that dog as a dog. I would miss him though and would always remember him.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Yes, this is fun to watch, be the guy on the bottom, and you will get your ass bitten. LOL

Loser gets punked. LOL


----------



## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Do I need to post a video??????????????LOL LOL


----------



## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

Jerry… I’ve performed that exercise with over 100 different Police Service Dogs from all over the US and some from Canada. Only two dogs did not attack their handler instead of the decoy. Both were female dogs. 

It’s set up as real world as you can get… dog in muzzle, decoy and handler fighting… decoy takes handler to the ground and proceeds to beat the handler while on top of him. 

Dog is released…. The dog’s genetics kick in and he proceeds to attack the weaker person in the submissive position… the handler. I have countless videos of this and I would invite anyone to recreate the exercise. 

I’ve seen this “trained” with decoys in suits… with decoys who bang on their chests targeting the dog away from their handlers… this is not real life and that certainly isn’t how it’s going to go down on the street. Again… take equipment out of the picture and the dog’s behaviors change... genetics starts to rear it’s ugly head. 

Please don’t take this the wrong way Jerry but I would love to see what you are doing that you have a 0% handler bite experience.


----------



## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

"Kyle and Mathew, we do train for this and have NEVER had a dog bite the handler. Training is training. If it is presented the right way the handler will not get bit by his own dog. Now, the wacko may bite and that's the dog that has no business being train for PPD. In our training 0% of the handlers have been bit by their dog."

Yes Jerry, that is the point, you take the time to train for this with experienced qualified helpers. Most do not.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Jerry, lets see Matthews video, and then you recreate the exact same situation.

It's ****ing brutal to those with the Walt Disney sentiments about dogs. LOL


----------



## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

That's a deal Jeff. 
Mathew, send me a video of how you guys do it. I will do the exact same excersise as you do it. Then I'll show you a video of how we train it. 

The video that I will show is if the handler is hit and knocked to the ground. One blow and the handler is out of the picture. This is what I was refering to. Yours is harder because of the fighting on the ground. Please send me the video so that I do it the same way.

This will be fun. ;o)
PS: We won't use a muzzle. Confidence, you bet'cha.....


----------



## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Thanks Kyle.


----------



## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

I dug up the CD with the video on it. I'll you-tube it tonight.

Great opertunity to learn from one another!


----------



## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Mathew I totaly agree.

Stay tuned folks.


----------



## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

Here you go Jerry.... I started a new thread. http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBul...-dog-forum-training-challenge-9329/#post94875


----------



## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

> Another thing I do is have the dog (off) lead positioned for the search, a little farther back than I would on a real world application. I have nobody holding him when I first do this exercise also as I want the dog to be totally committed to the scenario not worrying about the guy behind his back holding the lead. 

> Just my way of doing it.

> Phil


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

For the original poster, if you look at the wacky phsychic network excuses that people were coming up with in the thread where the dog is nailing the guy on the bottom every time, why would you not think that the dog will have a problem figureing out equipment?????

Even a hidden sleeve is only good for one go. You never get the same response after that.


----------



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Dogs don't know equipment, they know decoys. Dogs can at times be equipment focused, as with prey dogs, and be watching for the arm movement. I've never had a dog tell me, "Oh that's a Ray Allen sleeve and I'm not biting THAT." :mrgreen:


----------



## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Dogs don't know equipment, they know decoys. Dogs can at times be equipment focused, as with prey dogs, and be watching for the arm movement. I've never had a dog tell me, "Oh that's a Ray Allen sleeve and I'm not biting THAT." :mrgreen:


No...dogs know equipment. Why else can our decoys pet my dog before suiting up? Yet get him suited and he gets within distance before a dog has control, the dog will put teeth to suit because that's what the dogs has been doing up to that point.


----------

