# Give me some history!



## Chris McDonald

My understanding is that many of these dog sports are descendants of protection dog training? What is the purpose of wanting a dog to never let go of the bite? When I watch these dogs in ring sports or SCH videos many times the decoy has some form of an agitation stick. First the dog bites the arm without the stick; I think this is stupid in itself. Then the decoy waves the stick around and taps and pokes the dogs with it. My understanding is that this is to try to get the dog to release the bite. How and why did this become the standard? 
Is there a reason the sport did not evolve so the dog is trained to bite the arm with a weapon or release and retarget when he sees a weapon being raised in the other hand? Or bite the leg that is kicking him? 
Basically what is the point of this bite and hold with a calm full grip thing all about?


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## Tammy Cohen

Troublemaker!!

I gave up pondering things like that.

I assume it's because a dog that turns the person being bitten into hamburger is a liability?
4 nice neat holes should be enough to bring someone down I guess.


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## Tammy Cohen

Hitting the dog demonstrates that the dog isn't a wus. It can send some dogs flying, not the kind of dog you would want watching your back I should think.


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## Chris McDonald

Tammy Cohen said:


> Troublemaker!!
> 
> I gave up pondering things like that.
> 
> I assume it's because a dog that turns the person being bitten into hamburger is a liability?
> 4 nice neat holes should be enough to bring someone down I guess.


 
Its going to be a while before I give up pondering, I really want a legit answer. I don’t think they had liability issues when most of these sports started. What about those PP clubs and trials do they want to hang on and get beat to death there? What about real war dogs of the past where they trained to just hang on. Is there some trial or sport where the dog is supposed to coconsciously fight in and out?


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## Edward Egan

I'm not sure were you got the idea that the dog never let's go, I find this a misconception. In SchH the dog has to out within three commands or it's DQ'ed.
A calm and strong bite from what I understand shows a dog has good nerves and a commitment of the bite. Were a dog that chews or has a weak 1/2 grip are conflicted on whether to flight or fight. Many dogs will not engauge or disengauge when confronted with the stick, thus the nerve of the dog is flight when confronted with a strong deterent. I could be wrong though.


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## Chris McDonald

Edward Egan said:


> I'm not sure were you got the idea that the dog never let's go, I find this a misconception. In SchH the dog has to out within three commands or it's DQ'ed.
> A calm and strong bite from what I understand shows a dog has good nerves and a commitment of the bite. Were a dog that chews or has a weak 1/2 grip are conflicted on whether to flight or fight. Many dogs will not engauge or disengauge when confronted with the stick, thus the nerve of the dog is flight when confronted with a strong deterent. I could be wrong though.


I’m not referring to when they are told to “out” I am referring to release and re-targeting at their own will 

A dog that can be trained to release and re-target the arm or leg being used to hurt him has weak nerves? 

I understand that the stick is there to run off some dogs, but why not have the dogs with the nerves attack the arm with the stick? Even if they have to reposition themselves for a better angle of attack?


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## Kadi Thingvall

Some dogs will not stick a bite under the pressure of the stick, but instead let go, retarget, etc because of poor nerves. A dog that will bite and hold can be taught to retarget like you are describing, but a dog who won't maintain a grip under pressure because of nerve issues usually can't be taught to bite and hold. This is true not just in manwork but can also be seen in catch work and herding. Some dogs nip because that's all they have the guts to do, get in there, take a quick shot, and get the heck out. Others nip when that's all that's needed, but will bite and hold when needed also. Sometimes when not needed to [-X 

These are sports, meant to test the dogs, but none of them claim they produce a street ready dog. In terms of testing, if the sport were to encourage dogs who let go, retarget, won't take frontal pressure but circle to the back, etc how do you differentiate in trial between the dogs who are doing it because they don't have the nerve to take the pressure and hang in there, vs the dogs who do have the nerve but were trained to fight this way?

If you look at some of the REALLY old competition videos, I think mainly Sch ones are on YouTube you will see some dogs that let go and retarget. At the time I think that was probably acceptable, but as people learned more about the dogs, how to test them, etc they moved more towards requirements they felt better showed the dogs nerves, with the idea that the dogs can always be trained to work a different way, if desired. 

I also would not be surprised if politics came into play, as more dogs were used for police work, and we moved towards a "kinder and gentler society" (very few countries now look favorably on someones personal protection dog mauling or killing a thief/trespasser) an emphasis was put on getting the job done with the minimum amount of damage possible.


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## Edward Egan

Chris McDonald said:


> I’m not referring to when they are told to “out” I am referring to release and re-targeting at their own will
> 
> A dog that can be trained to release and re-target the arm or leg being used to hurt him has weak nerves?
> 
> I understand that the stick is there to run off some dogs, but why not have the dogs with the nerves attack the arm with the stick? Even if they have to reposition themselves for a better angle of attack?


OK I give. Bleeding SchH decoys is not the objective. In ring many train to bite the leg to reduce the chance of injury to the dog and decoy.
I got a question for you. Why do you use such a large font and bold text? :roll:

Also this is a sport, not the real thing. Knowone wants the decoy to get hurt or the dog they are traing for the last three years too have a serious, sport ending injury just to prove something.


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## Chris McDonald

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Some dogs will not stick a bite under the pressure of the stick, but instead let go, retarget, etc because of poor nerves. A dog that will bite and hold can be taught to retarget like you are describing, but a dog who won't maintain a grip under pressure because of nerve issues usually can't be taught to bite and hold. This is true not just in manwork but can also be seen in catch work and herding. Some dogs nip because that's all they have the guts to do, get in there, take a quick shot, and get the heck out. Others nip when that's all that's needed, but will bite and hold when needed also. Sometimes when not needed to [-X
> 
> These are sports, meant to test the dogs, but none of them claim they produce a street ready dog. In terms of testing, if the sport were to encourage dogs who let go, retarget, won't take frontal pressure but circle to the back, etc how do you differentiate in trial between the dogs who are doing it because they don't have the nerve to take the pressure and hang in there, vs the dogs who do have the nerve but were trained to fight this way?
> 
> If you look at some of the REALLY old competition videos, I think mainly Sch ones are on YouTube you will see some dogs that let go and retarget. At the time I think that was probably acceptable, but as people learned more about the dogs, how to test them, etc they moved more towards requirements they felt better showed the dogs nerves, with the idea that the dogs can always be trained to work a different way, if desired.
> 
> I also would not be surprised if politics came into play, as more dogs were used for police work, and we moved towards a "kinder and gentler society" (very few countries now look favorably on someones personal protection dog mauling or killing a thief/trespasser) an emphasis was put on getting the job done with the minimum amount of damage possible.


 
Nice answer! I think I kind of get it. But with that being said maybe you need a SCH 4 title where the dog as proven itself but know performs stick avoidance

So are there any trials or sports that do want dogs retargeting? Does anyone know of links of video of dogs retargeting or jukeing and gliding the weapon (if you know what I mean) I can’t seem to find the right search term to find any. 

As far as police work if they got to send their dog and the dog is getting hit with a pipe does it matter if the bad guy gets bit in two or three locations rather than just one?


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## Edward Egan

Dam 100 posts and I'm still an ankle biter!


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## Chris McDonald

Edward Egan said:


> OK I give. Bleeding SchH decoys is not the objective. In ring many train to bite the leg to reduce the chance of injury to the dog and decoy.
> I got a question for you. Why do you use such a large font and bold text? :roll:
> 
> Also this is a sport, not the real thing. Knowone wants the decoy to get hurt or the dog they are traing for the last three years too have a serious, sport ending injury just to prove something.


 
 Due to my retarted spelling I use Word and past it over, and still many thing are wrong. The font size is 11 in Word, type is Calibri, non-bold. #11 is pretty small and my font looks to be 11 or even smaller when I view my post on my side. On my side my font is actually smaller than yours? I did not mean to be using obnoxious sized font. They may have come across as obnoxious questions but were not meant to be. 
Hey- is the font big and bold or are you screwing with me. Because if it is big and bold I must really look like I get taken to the community computer for 15 minutes a day standing on a hand truck in a straight jacket! 

And who you kidding? I understand a “Bleeding Sch decoys are not the objective” I bet you would go home with a smile on your face if your dog caused it. Or at least have a hard time hiding the smile and pretending to be sorry


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## Edward Egan

Chris McDonald said:


> Nice answer! I think I kind of get it. But with that being said maybe you need a SCH 4 title where the dog as proven itself but know performs stick avoidance
> 
> So are there any trials or sports that do want dogs retargeting? Does anyone know of links of video of dogs retargeting or jukeing and gliding the weapon (if you know what I mean) I can’t seem to find the right search term to find any.
> 
> As far as police work if they got to send their dog and the dog is getting hit with a pipe does it matter if the bad guy gets bit in two or three locations rather than just one?


No,no SchH 4, SchH 3 then Mondio for me!


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## Alex Corral

I agree with Kadi. To me, it's a sport dog, and that's it. It's also a good test for working stock (whole point of SchH/protection sports). If this is a hobby, why do you want that liability from your dog? 

Street dogs are a whole other animal IMO. Sure there are a lot of sport dogs that will bite for reals, if you need that much protection, I'd suggest you protect yourself in more ways than just a dog. 

I don't really agree with the "full mouth grip". I've caught dogs that have a full mouth, but you can't really feel the pressure. I've caught dogs that don't normally stuff their face and you can really feel the sleeve crunch. Guess it's hard to tell though, unless you're wearing the sleeve.


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## Al Curbow

The old targeting the weapon hand, lol. Okay, what if the bad guy has a weapon in both hands? Simple question


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## Mike Scheiber

I don't have much to add to what Kadi explained about the bite work great explnations.
Schutzhund started out as a breed test and still is under the Vereine für Deutsche Schäferhunde (SV)
"My" brief explanation if a dog can track Schutzhund with discipline it should my all means be able to track naturally. Simply put.
The obedience is supposed to exhibit the train ability, willingness of the dog. Simply put.
Protection is supposed to exhibit the dogs character, hardness, and demonstrate control wile in a high state of drive. Simply put


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## Edward Egan

Chris McDonald said:


> Due to my retarted spelling I use Word and past it over, and still many thing are wrong. The font size is 11 in Word, type is Calibri, non-bold. #11 is pretty small and my font looks to be 11 or even smaller when I view my post on my side. On my side my font is actually smaller than yours? I did not mean to be using obnoxious sized font. They may have come across as obnoxious questions but were not meant to be.
> Hey- is the font big and bold or are you screwing with me. Because if it is big and bold I must really look like I get taken to the community computer for 15 minutes a day standing on a hand truck in a straight jacket!
> 
> And who you kidding? I understand a “Bleeding Sch decoys are not the objective” I bet you would go home with a smile on your face if your dog caused it. Or at least have a hard time hiding the smile and pretending to be sorry


You would loose that bet. I'm a former Paramedic and treated dog bites and know how serious a dog bite can be. I've also been bitten doing bite work, while minor, it still sucked.

I found the same problem with using word, and I stopped using it. I haven't seen any cops around here hand out spelling tickets.

If you log out and look up your post you will see the large font and bold text. I change this post for you since I'm really a nice guy.


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## Edward Egan

Also my own dog caused perminent nerve damage in my left hand just playing around. #-o


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## Jerry Lyda

here's my shot,
A dog that is being trialed in a sport never really gets hurt even though there is stick hits, a lot of yelling, being hit with plastic jugs with rocks inside (for noise ) all those things even gun fire. The dog should not come off, this shows nerves in the dog.

If that same dog was to have to bite for real we would all hope that IF he gets hit hard and hard enough to make him come off then by all means he should re-bite and re-bite again IF he has to.

Sport is sport, a gauge to measure.


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## Chris McDonald

Al Curbow said:


> The old targeting the weapon hand, lol. Okay, what if the bad guy has a weapon in both hands? Simple question


 
Simple answer, Somebody’s always got to loose


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## Chris McDonald

Edward Egan said:


> You would loose that bet. I'm a former Paramedic and treated dog bites and know how serious a dog bite can be. I've also been bitten doing bite work, while minor, it still sucked.
> 
> I found the same problem with using word, and I stopped using it. I haven't seen any cops around here hand out spelling tickets.
> 
> If you log out and look up your post you will see the large font and bold text. I change this post for you since I'm really a nice guy.


 
I’m not talking about a full blown bite just a little damage under the sleeve


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## Kyle Sprag

Al Curbow said:


> The old targeting the weapon hand, lol. Okay, what if the bad guy has a weapon in both hands? Simple question


 
Even Better? How does the dog know what a "weapon" is? maybe the guy is just holding a cell phone. ](*,) ](*,) ](*,)


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## Edward Egan

Chris McDonald said:


> I’m not talking about a full blown bite just a little damage under the sleeve


I believe we were talking in the context of targeting the stick hand, etc. Some dogs will target the hand, I worked one such dog and told the handler what happened. He didn't believe me and the next week another decoy ended up with four stiches. I dog can get you wearing a suit, usually just brusing, but a sleeve bite on the bite bar, you better get a new sleeve then.


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## Chris McDonald

Kyle Sprag said:


> Even Better? How does the dog know what a "weapon" is? maybe the guy is just holding a cell phone. ](*,) ](*,) ](*,)


 
If the dog is sent to bite someone it doesn’t know it’s a cell phone but why not have it go after that arm in a sport? I know the sports were taken from reality, but in reality wouldn’t it increase the dogs chance of success? 
 It’s a really interesting thing to watch a dog do, once the dog has proven his nerves it why not teach it? It’s not like your making a killer it’s just another drill/ skill/ thing to do. I just don’t see it done too often and am wondering why? 
I would think many of you guys doing this for many years can tell what the dogs nerves are without this bite and hold being proven with a container of rocks?


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## Mike Scheiber

Chris McDonald said:


> And who you kidding? I understand a “Bleeding Sch decoys are not the objective” I bet you would go home with a smile on your face if your dog caused it. Or at least have a hard time hiding the smile and pretending to be sorry


I am currently working on keeping my dog from biting the helper in the face in the hold and bark exercise he has O respect for the helper that's the way he is that's thats the way he will remain.:mrgreen:
I dont like the helpers cleaning my dog in the first place and this dog just get madder if the helper tries. 
How ever I would be sick in my stomich and hart if my dog ever took a shot at the helpers face and sick in the head if I got any pleasure/eago from my dog doing so. 
Schutzhund is a sport/play however the dog I like to compete with WILL work all it takes is just a little different direction in training/tuning and my dog could be sitting in any cop car in the world. 
However he is "just a sport dog" to most people unless your a real dog man/women then you will be able to look past the sport and watch him perform and be able to understand what is in front of you. 
Thankfully there are dog sports that we can watch, compair,show and appreciate what each animal has to offer or not. 
Listen my dog isn't unique he is just what a German Shepherd is supposed to be there are allot of nice dogs in the US and a handful of people trying to breed more.
Chris I think you need to get to a GOOD club and get in a sleeve or a suite and have a go at "the sport"


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## Al Curbow

Ok, what if the guy has a stick in each hand? What's the dog supposed to do then?


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## Edward Egan

Chris McDonald said:


> If the dog is sent to bite someone it doesn’t know it’s a cell phone but why not have it go after that arm in a sport? I know the sports were taken from reality, but in reality wouldn’t it increase the dogs chance of success?
> It’s a really interesting thing to watch a dog do, once the dog has proven his nerves it why not teach it? It’s not like your making a killer it’s just another drill/ skill/ thing to do. I just don’t see it done too often and am wondering why?
> I would think many of you guys doing this for many years can tell what the dogs nerves are without this bite and hold being proven with a container of rocks?


Like are we talking PSD or PPD or sport dog? You seem to discout the rocks in a jug thing, try it yourself, try chompping on some corn on a cob while someone shakes a jug full of rocks in your ear! Just kidding please don't try this at home!#-o


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## Jim Nash

Chris for a PSD I want a dog that bites and holds with one strong grip . Full would be nice but as long as it's got a good grip on the badguy that's good for me . Both my dogs have engaged many suspects and I've assisted my fellow K9 handlers also when their K9's have engaged a suspect for real . 

I've seen suspects take advantage of a situation where the K9 loses it's grip on the suspect or attempts regrip . They've made it over fences , on top of cars , luckly none have been able to get to something they could use as weapons . 

Besides liabilty , it's because I simply want that dog to keep that suspect where he is . Me and my backup are the other part of the equation . With a K9 that moves around on the bite it also puts the other officers at risk also . If we are all engaged with the suspect I simply want that dog to be a big weight keeping the suspect where he is . 

Now I've seen some dogs regrip after they've been struck by something or the fight progresses . From my experiances with K9's that's when the dog is starting to feel more and more presure and in my opinion are starting to make a descision if they should stay in the fight or flee . Sometimes though it's just pain that temporarily makes them let go and their next grip will be a much stronger one .

Luckily , I've never seen one of our K9's pushed in a prolonged fight long enough to descide to flee .

From my experiance with new weaker K9's that we ended up washing when it came to a real engagement their fighting style was to joust with the suspect . In and out especailly dodging the suspects hands . I say they were weak not only because they didn't hold a bite very long but also because their ability to do other aspects of PSD work were borderline . Not many weak dogs have made it out of training to the street but occassionally one (usually borderline in all it's work , but juuust good enough to give it a try on the streets) made it through . 

The stronger(strong in all aspects of PSD work ) that I work with usually hold a suspect with one strong grip and there is virtually nothing that can make them come off . The more a suspect fights the stronger the dog holds on . 

I will state that this is only my opinion on PSD's and that there are other PSD handlers and trainers that prefer something different with their K9's. Also there are strong dogs that will occasionally regrip . There are always exceptions to the rule and you have to look at every thing each individual PSD brings with them to the table .


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## Gerry Grimwood

Chris McDonald said:


> As far as police work if they got to send their dog and the dog is getting hit with a pipe does it matter if the bad guy gets bit in two or three locations rather than just one?


It's delusional to think your dog should and could behave like a Police dog, Sports don't require this and neither do most PPD's.

Target the arm with the stick :lol: , what if it were a blind guy cussin you out ?


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## Chris McDonald

Jim Nash said:


> Chris for a PSD I want a dog that bites and holds with one strong grip . Full would be nice but as long as it's got a good grip on the badguy that's good for me . Both my dogs have engaged many suspects and I've assisted my fellow K9 handlers also when their K9's have engaged a suspect for real .
> 
> I've seen suspects take advantage of a situation where the K9 loses it's grip on the suspect or attempts regrip . They've made it over fences , on top of cars , luckly none have been able to get to something they could use as weapons .
> 
> Besides liabilty , it's because I simply want that dog to keep that suspect where he is . Me and my backup are the other part of the equation . With a K9 that moves around on the bite it also puts the other officers at risk also . If we are all engaged with the suspect I simply want that dog to be a big weight keeping the suspect where he is .
> 
> Now I've seen some dogs regrip after they've been struck by something or the fight progresses . From my experiances with K9's that's when the dog is starting to feel more and more presure and in my opinion are starting to make a descision if they should stay in the fight or flee . Sometimes though it's just pain that temporarily makes them let go and their next grip will be a much stronger one .
> 
> Luckily , I've never seen one of our K9's pushed in a prolonged fight long enough to descide to flee .
> 
> From my experiance with new weaker K9's that we ended up washing when it came to a real engagement their fighting style was to joust with the suspect . In and out especailly dodging the suspects hands . I say they were weak not only because they didn't hold a bite very long but also because their ability to do other aspects of PSD work were borderline . Not many weak dogs have made it out of training to the street but occassionally one (usually borderline in all it's work , but juuust good enough to give it a try on the streets) made it through .
> 
> The stronger(strong in all aspects of PSD work ) that I work with usually hold a suspect with one strong grip and there is virtually nothing that can make them come off . The more a suspect fights the stronger the dog holds on .
> 
> I will state that this is only my opinion on PSD's and that there are other PSD handlers and trainers that prefer something different with their K9's. Also there are strong dogs that will occasionally regrip . There are always exceptions to the rule and you have to look at every thing each individual PSD brings with them to the table .


Nice answer, thanks


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## Chris McDonald

Mike Scheiber said:


> I am currently working on keeping my dog from biting the helper in the face in the hold and bark exercise he has O respect for the helper that's the way he is that's thats the way he will remain.:mrgreen:
> I dont like the helpers cleaning my dog in the first place and this dog just get madder if the helper tries.
> How ever I would be sick in my stomich and hart if my dog ever took a shot at the helpers face and sick in the head if I got any pleasure/eago from my dog doing so.
> Schutzhund is a sport/play however the dog I like to compete with WILL work all it takes is just a little different direction in training/tuning and my dog could be sitting in any cop car in the world.
> However he is "just a sport dog" to most people unless your a real dog man/women then you will be able to look past the sport and watch him perform and be able to understand what is in front of you.
> Thankfully there are dog sports that we can watch, compair,show and appreciate what each animal has to offer or not.
> Listen my dog isn't unique he is just what a German Shepherd is supposed to be there are allot of nice dogs in the US and a handful of people trying to breed more.
> Chris I think you need to get to a GOOD club and get in a sleeve or a suite and have a go at "the sport"


 
Nothing against any of the sports there all great to watch and I can appreciate all of them. I do have a Sch club that I have watched a few times. It is very interesting. There is even an agility club that I went to once… till I figured out the guys liked me! The reality is my schedule really wouldn’t let me make many of the club training times. 
Kadi and Jim gave some great answers, seems like so many people train for so many things…. There is life outside the sport clubs too. Just seems as most people are into biting and holding when there is other fun stuff to do.


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## Edward Egan

Chris McDonald said:


> Nothing against any of the sports there all great to watch and I can appreciate all of them. I do have a Sch club that I have watched a few times. It is very interesting. There is even an agility club that I went to once… till I figured out the guys liked me! The reality is my schedule really wouldn’t let me make many of the club training times.
> Kadi and Jim gave some great answers, seems like so many people train for so many things…. There is life outside the sport clubs too. Just seems as most people are into biting and holding when there is other fun stuff to do.


Even after all these answers and great patients you don't seem to get it.=;


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## Chris McDonald

Edward Egan said:


> I believe we were talking in the context of targeting the stick hand, etc. Some dogs will target the hand, I worked one such dog and told the handler what happened. He didn't believe me and the next week another decoy ended up with four stiches. I dog can get you wearing a suit, usually just brusing, but a sleeve bite on the bite bar, you better get a new sleeve then.


 
I’m surprised more people don’t get bit in the hands when looking at those suits they use with their hands so close. There is a skill there.


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## Chris McDonald

Edward Egan said:


> Even after all these answers and great patients you don't seem to get it.=;


I understand the reason for the bite and hold, I understand that it’s the industry standard, so to say. I still think a dog re-targeting on its own or under command is neat to watch and don’t understand why I don’t see it more often. 
I still would think if a PD on the street had its choice it should go for the arm with an “object” in it, that’s all.


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## Chris McDonald

Mike Scheiber said:


> I am currently working on keeping my dog from biting the helper in the face in the hold and bark exercise he has O respect for the helper that's the way he is that's thats the way he will remain.:mrgreen:
> I dont like the helpers cleaning my dog in the first place and this dog just get madder if the helper tries.
> How ever I would be sick in my stomich and hart if my dog ever took a shot at the helpers face and sick in the head if I got any pleasure/eago from my dog doing so.
> 
> 
> Mike, just cause there are no yellow heads doesn’t mean I’m not kidding… next time I’ll use the yellow heads


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## Chris McDonald

I am giving a command for him to switch arms… I’m just wondering why is don’t see more of this type of work? 


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lANIYek7nU&feature=channel_page


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## Chris McDonald

I am giving a command for him to switch arms… I’m just wondering why it is we don’t see more of this type of work? I can’t seem to find much 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lANIYek7nU&feature=channel_page 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lANIYek7nU&feature=channel_page


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## Chris McDonald

maybe my 3rd try 

I am giving a command for him to switch arms… I’m just wondering why it is we don’t see more of this type of work? I can’t seem to find much 


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lANIYek7nU&feature=channel_page


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## Chris McDonald

I don’t know if the video is there I think the video post is to new and the address may not be right


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## Mike Scheiber

Chris McDonald said:


> Mike Scheiber said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am currently working on keeping my dog from biting the helper in the face in the hold and bark exercise he has O respect for the helper that's the way he is that's thats the way he will remain.:mrgreen:
> I dont like the helpers cleaning my dog in the first place and this dog just get madder if the helper tries.
> How ever I would be sick in my stomich and hart if my dog ever took a shot at the helpers face and sick in the head if I got any pleasure/eago from my dog doing so.
> 
> 
> Mike, just cause there are no yellow heads dosent mean I’m not kidding… next time I’ll use the yellow heads
> 
> 
> 
> Guess I just stereotyped you as I perceive many of the PPD folks I see posting stuff.
> For instance Emilios last video post of the dog getting the guy teasing it and getting bit and replaying it in slow motion and a bazillion others like on youtube.
> After mentioning the Schutzhud club and the man friendly agility fellas in one sentence I am inclined to think you may have a segued perception of dog sport.;-) Thats ok ;-)
> I'm not sure who all the baller Schutzhundzhund clubs/trainers up in the north east _Carlos _Rojas is up that way take some time and check out some other clubs.
> I mostly use the smileys to tease and agrivate.:lol:
Click to expand...


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## Tammy Cohen

Chris McDonald said:


> There is life outside the sport clubs too. Just seems as most people are into biting and holding when there is other fun stuff to do.


Here you go...
You won't see this in any schutzhund club.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEKFmUR5TE8

This video is something else! Someone posted it here a while back.

Liability? These guys laugh in the face of liability! 
I guess the dog isn't re-gripping but it's fun to watch anyway.


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## Gerry Grimwood

Chris McDonald said:


> I’m just wondering why it is we don’t see more of this type of work? I can’t seem to find much


I'll bite, could it be because it makes the decoy look like he just chewed off the straps for the arm restraints and was trying to escape the asylum :razz:


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## Chris McDonald

Mike Scheiber said:


> Chris McDonald said:
> 
> 
> 
> Guess I just stereotyped you as I perceive many of the PPD folks I see posting stuff.
> For instance Emilios last video post of the dog getting the guy teasing it and getting bit and replaying it in slow motion and a bazillion others like on youtube.
> After mentioning the Schutzhud club and the man friendly agility fellas in one sentence I am inclined to think you may have a segued perception of dog sport.;-) Thats ok ;-)
> I'm not sure who all the baller Schutzhundzhund clubs/trainers up in the north east _Carlos _Rojas is up that way take some time and check out some other clubs.
> I mostly use the smileys to tease and agrivate.:lol:
> 
> 
> 
> I don’t put my dog in the PP category I don’t even know if there is one. I know my dog does some bite work here and there but we have I have a lot more fun and spend a lot more time playing with his nose. Two days ago I was using my keys as an article in a big field. I got home a put my keys on the counter, then couldn’t find them. I looked for an hour before I found my spare set and though I lost my normal set. Then yesterday my wife was looking out the window and asked why Quinn was running around with my keys. Even if my time allowed I still don’t know if I would do the club thing I think I can spend a lifetime on the nose. I’d be just as happy if my dog never had any bite work. I need to find one of those RCMP k9 guys to teach me.
> Elmo was funny! I still don’t think he was real… but he had to be I don’t think a normal person could make that stuff up. My though on the agility club will never change…. What the hell did I know? I never knew it was a front for something else
Click to expand...


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## Chris McDonald

Tammy Cohen said:


> Here you go...
> You won't see this in any schutzhund club.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEKFmUR5TE8
> 
> This video is something else! Someone posted it here a while back.
> 
> Liability? These guys laugh in the face of liability!
> I guess the dog isn't re-gripping but it's fun to watch anyway.


 
that aint even right... Do you think its Elmo


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## Chris McDonald

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I'll bite, could it be because it makes the decoy look like he just chewed off the straps for the arm restraints and was trying to escape the asylum :razz:


How do you know you can bite through them?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I think I know why you are confusd Chris. 

It is a technique called "niche marketing" and it is quite effective. Baden has done a nice job of targeting the individual that does not know all that much about dogs, and how they work.

The "new" dog person is like many out there, concerned for the safety of the family. They call and get info about this kennel and that, and then they get sick of the snotty breeder thinking that their dogs are all that and then some. 

Usually about then if they, like you, find Baden, this "NICHE MARKETING" concept works.

You are sick of the others BS, you have this goofy demand that your dog be able to kill 9 special ops troops and before being taken out, push your children to safety. There is Baden, and they are waiting for you. THey show you all the bells and whistles and knowing that you know **** all and are sick to death of the super over controlling female breeders you have talked to in the recent past.

Some manly man in some sort of quasi uniform talks to you like a man, treats you like you are one to be respected, and shows you your new dog, and his training.

The dog is always at least "this" much, and has had some good agility training, as people are impressed to shit if your dog can climb a ladder. Doesn't matter about anything else, if that little muther****er can climb a ladder, well DAMN that is a good dog.

Baden loves to train ladder dogs. You love your ladder dog, your FRIENDS love your ladder dog, your parents, children, brother and sister all love your ladder dog.

You feel good. Your dog will bite on command, AND can climb a ladder. HOT DIGGETY DAMN !!!

Then you get on a forum like this, and we say stuff like, " climbing a ladder is retarded" or "If your dog is on a ladder, the bad guy will just push the ladder off the roof and your dog gets muckled"


That sucks Chris. I am sorry. How can we help you feel better about your ladder dog ?? He looks like a real nice dog, and has better balancing skills on a log than you. However, when you splashed in that water, that muther NEVER even thought about seeing if you were OK.

My dogs do that, and I don't even train the ladder thing. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Mike Scheiber

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I think I know why you are confusd Chris.
> 
> It is a technique called "niche marketing" and it is quite effective. Baden has done a nice job of targeting the individual that does not know all that much about dogs, and how they work.
> 
> The "new" dog person is like many out there, concerned for the safety of the family. They call and get info about this kennel and that, and then they get sick of the snotty breeder thinking that their dogs are all that and then some.
> 
> Usually about then if they, like you, find Baden, this "NICHE MARKETING" concept works.
> 
> You are sick of the others BS, you have this goofy demand that your dog be able to kill 9 special ops troops and before being taken out, push your children to safety. There is Baden, and they are waiting for you. THey show you all the bells and whistles and knowing that you know **** all and are sick to death of the super over controlling female breeders you have talked to in the recent past.
> 
> Some manly man in some sort of quasi uniform talks to you like a man, treats you like you are one to be respected, and shows you your new dog, and his training.
> 
> The dog is always at least "this" much, and has had some good agility training, as people are impressed to shit if your dog can climb a ladder. Doesn't matter about anything else, if that little muther****er can climb a ladder, well DAMN that is a good dog.
> 
> Baden loves to train ladder dogs. You love your ladder dog, your FRIENDS love your ladder dog, your parents, children, brother and sister all love your ladder dog.
> 
> You feel good. Your dog will bite on command, AND can climb a ladder. HOT DIGGETY DAMN !!!
> 
> Then you get on a forum like this, and we say stuff like, " climbing a ladder is retarded" or "If your dog is on a ladder, the bad guy will just push the ladder off the roof and your dog gets muckled"
> 
> 
> That sucks Chris. I am sorry. How can we help you feel better about your ladder dog ?? He looks like a real nice dog, and has better balancing skills on a log than you. However, when you splashed in that water, that muther NEVER even thought about seeing if you were OK.
> 
> My dogs do that, and I don't even train the ladder thing. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


I was wondering when you were going to get him "straighten up" he had it cumming.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

It is what I do best. 

It is a shame that he doesn't have a ring club somewhere near him. The dog looks like a real nice dog, and would have fun training. I think Chris would have fun training, and the frustration from not being able to do so would not show up like it does here and there.

The stupid logistics of dog sports and the distances most have to go to get their dog trained make for a small bunch of absolute nutters. I was, at one point going to move back to the east coast. I would have loved to train with Chris, as he seems pretty funny, but that got all messed up.

We really need to have a WDF get together. I am not the "organising" type, but I am working on it. I think it would be good times.


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## Chris McDonald

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I think I know why you are confusd Chris.
> 
> It is a technique called "niche marketing" and it is quite effective. Baden has done a nice job of targeting the individual that does not know all that much about dogs, and how they work.
> 
> The "new" dog person is like many out there, concerned for the safety of the family. They call and get info about this kennel and that, and then they get sick of the snotty breeder thinking that their dogs are all that and then some.
> 
> Usually about then if they, like you, find Baden, this "NICHE MARKETING" concept works.
> 
> You are sick of the others BS, you have this goofy demand that your dog be able to kill 9 special ops troops and before being taken out, push your children to safety. There is Baden, and they are waiting for you. THey show you all the bells and whistles and knowing that you know **** all and are sick to death of the super over controlling female breeders you have talked to in the recent past.
> 
> Some manly man in some sort of quasi uniform talks to you like a man, treats you like you are one to be respected, and shows you your new dog, and his training.
> 
> The dog is always at least "this" much, and has had some good agility training, as people are impressed to shit if your dog can climb a ladder. Doesn't matter about anything else, if that little muther****er can climb a ladder, well DAMN that is a good dog.
> 
> Baden loves to train ladder dogs. You love your ladder dog, your FRIENDS love your ladder dog, your parents, children, brother and sister all love your ladder dog.
> 
> You feel good. Your dog will bite on command, AND can climb a ladder. HOT DIGGETY DAMN !!!
> 
> Then you get on a forum like this, and we say stuff like, " climbing a ladder is retarded" or "If your dog is on a ladder, the bad guy will just push the ladder off the roof and your dog gets muckled"
> 
> 
> That sucks Chris. I am sorry. How can we help you feel better about your ladder dog ?? He looks like a real nice dog, and has better balancing skills on a log than you. However, when you splashed in that water, that muther NEVER even thought about seeing if you were OK.
> 
> My dogs do that, and I don't even train the ladder thing. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


What did you just wake up? 
I take it you are another one who has never met anyone from there? I know most of the group and they are very nice people, with very nice families. They work and train hard. They have a long wait of many not so dum people who want their dogs. I have seen many of their patrol dogs there are 8 about an hour from me. The K9 officers that have their dogs are very experienced nice guys. And I have one other Baden pet owner in the area that seems nice and normal to me at least. My dog is my pet and it’s all about what you want there really is no wrong or right if it works for you. When I wanted to learn more about Dutch Sheppard’s I looked around and had a tough time finding a place I could actually see them. Took a ride to Canada and found a place that has been breading them and training them for a long time. Pulled in, in a minivan with my wife and two daughters and shown some beautiful dogs. Still never found a facility like it for any breed. (Although I’d like to take a ride to Mikes in W.V) I went and visited a few clubs I found many nice people and I found several who think there club is there life, I was told by the other club members these people usually didn’t have much of a life, so they ran the club! 
Some people want dogs that have no fear of hula hops and they think the real brave ones aren’t scared of the hops with the ribbons tied to them and run around like there on coke. I have more fun falling of logs than watching a dog jump over a fence to bring me a dumbbell. Aint nothing wrong with either it’s all what you want. I had my dog for about two years and still don’t think I was scammed. But still every once in a while someone online whose never been there tells me all about them and how I been scammed.


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## Chris McDonald

Mike Scheiber said:


> I was wondering when you were going to get him "straighten up" he had it cumming.


 
What are you talking about I’m straight? No? #-o #-o


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## Chris McDonald

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> It is what I do best.
> 
> and the frustration from not being able to do so would not show up like it does here and there.
> 
> I do agree with this!
> That agility club killed me
> They made me the lonely retart in the woods covered in ticks and chiggers


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## Mike Scheiber

Chris McDonald said:


> What are you talking about I’m straight? No? #-o #-o


:?: :-s


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## David Frost

Jim Nash said:


> Chris for a PSD I want a dog that bites and holds with one strong grip . Full would be nice but as long as it's got a good grip on the badguy that's good for me . Both my dogs have engaged many suspects and I've assisted my fellow K9 handlers also when their K9's have engaged a suspect for real .
> 
> .


I agree. I'd add, in my experience, you'll see a lot of actual bites on the back of the thigh, calf or the hand. the hand is usually a defensive move from the subject trying to push the dog away. the good dogs, hang on, the harder the fight, the more they like it. we don't "target" any specific area. I try to explain to the new handlers, we are training the dog to take whatever he can get first. As for losing a grip, I've seen it happen, I don't like it, but sometimes they play rough. The dog that doesn't immediately regrip is gone. I've seen, on occasion, the second bite is worse than the first.

DFrost


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## Chris McDonald

David Frost said:


> I agree. I'd add, in my experience, you'll see a lot of actual bites on the back of the thigh, calf or the hand. the hand is usually a defensive move from the subject trying to push the dog away. the good dogs, hang on, the harder the fight, the more they like it. we don't "target" any specific area. I try to explain to the new handlers, we are training the dog to take whatever he can get first. As for losing a grip, I've seen it happen, I don't like it, but sometimes they play rough. The dog that doesn't immediately regrip is gone. I've seen, on occasion, the second bite is worse than the first.
> 
> DFrost


Jim also mentioned about the possibility of a dog biting a cop when retargeting. A friend and a local cop just got tagged in the arm by the k9 on duty. The handler pulled the dog off someone and a few cops jumped on, they were in a small room and the dog jumped back in on the wrong person. Just wound was minimal he was lucky. This was just a few weeks ago


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## Chris McDonald

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> It is what I do best.
> 
> and the frustration from not being able to do so would not show up like it does here and there.
> 
> Plus the frustration of raw and how to fix a dog sore leg posts, I had to start something new!
> You mother F-R go back to sleep


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## Chris McDonald

Gerry Grimwood said:


> It's delusional to think your dog should and could behave like a Police dog, Sports don't require this and neither do most PPD's.
> 
> Target the arm with the stick :lol: , what if it were a blind guy cussin you out ?


 
I am still reading some of these I open my mouth and can’t type fast enough to keep up. My dog defiantly aint a police dog or even a sport dog he is a pet. I’m not asking regarding my dog, but just as a general question. Got a few good answers, got a little heat… its all good. 
 But this question you asked was really serious… If a blind guy was cussin me out I would just walk away really really quietly. Don’t matter if he’s got a stick or not he cant see me to hit me with it. Did he have a Seeing Eye dog in this scenario?


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## Gerry Grimwood

Chris McDonald said:


> If a blind guy was cussin me out I would just walk away really really quietly. Don’t matter if he’s got a stick or not he cant see me to hit me with it. Did he have a Seeing Eye dog in this scenario?


No, but he had mad kung fu skillz.


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## Daryl Ehret

> Basically what is the point of this bite and hold with a calm full grip thing all about?


I assumed it was initially to cause less potential damage to the livestock, only _incidently_ benefiting apprehended suspects from getting mangled.


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## Chris McDonald

Daryl Ehret said:


> I assumed it was initially to cause less potential damage to the livestock, only _incidently_ benefiting apprehended suspects from getting mangled.


 
Hey that makes sense!


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## David Frost

Chris McDonald said:


> Jim also mentioned about the possibility of a dog biting a cop when retargeting. A friend and a local cop just got tagged in the arm by the k9 on duty. The handler pulled the dog off someone and a few cops jumped on, they were in a small room and the dog jumped back in on the wrong person. Just wound was minimal he was lucky. This was just a few weeks ago


That can happen. It's generally a training (not necessarily dog training) issue. That's a good roll call training agenda. On-the-other hand, it never fails (seems that way anyhow) when someone brings out the OC spray, cops are going to get it. I've even seen a cop accidently get tazed. You can imagine if things like that happen in the "fog of battle" what a dog can do.

DFrost


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## Chris McDonald

David Frost said:


> That can happen. It's generally a training (not necessarily dog training) issue. That's a good roll call training agenda. On-the-other hand, it never fails (seems that way anyhow) when someone brings out the OC spray, cops are going to get it. I've even seen a cop accidently get tazed. You can imagine if things like that happen in the "fog of battle" what a dog can do.
> 
> DFrost


 
It was the swat team that was standing outside waiting for 8 hours. When the handler pulled the dog off they seen a gun fall out from under the guys shirt and jumped on him. If you take all things into consideration, like guns being around, and a small bite wound was the worse injury I would think everything went real well.


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## Dwyras Brown

Chris as far as PPD training, I believe that a PPD that bites, releases, bites, releases... then you will more than likely have probs in court. Thats why nost trainers want them to bite and hold on. A lot of bite wounds on a someone will likely get them lots of simpathy in court. So one or two bite wounds is a lot better. This is definitely when less is better.


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## Chris McDonald

Gerry Grimwood said:


> No, but he had mad kung fu skillz.


 
This adds a whole nother level to things…. Im gona have to make a phone call and see if my dog has any experience fighting a blind kung fu ninja master with a stick? Im sure he has been trained for this. Bite and release should work better on a blind kung fu ninja master than bite and hold.


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## Chris McDonald

Dwyras Brown said:


> Chris as far as PPD training, I believe that a PPD that bites, releases, bites, releases... then you will more than likely have probs in court. Thats why nost trainers want them to bite and hold on. A lot of bite wounds on a someone will likely get them lots of simpathy in court. So one or two bite wounds is a lot better. This is definitely when less is better.


It’s a point.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

What was the guys name on that show ??


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## jack van strien

i could write a book about this.There are several different kinds of dogssports and as far as i know all sports want their dogs to not let go and retarget.If you want to know why, there are a lot of answers.Most dogssport want the dog to come in at full speed and hit the decoy,so you would have to learn the dog to target one spot.In real life you can just step aside when the dog is airborn and he will never touch you.In French ring this is different as the decoy can move at the last second to avoid being bitten.But this aside,if you are not on drugs or out of your mind you will feel so much pain when a dog bites you you will not even be able to swing a stick or take out you pocketknife and stab the dog. Your body will go in shock.You can not feel the bite on a schutzhund sleeve,french ring dogs do not bite full and we are talking about dogsports.In real live situations when there are policedogs involved you would also want the dog to stay on the bite,the dog is never alone and in case of armed suspects the officers may have to shoot and in that case it is nice to know your dog will not move around too much.


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## Chris McDonald

I found a dog switchinghttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lv5uEGdhg9M&feature=related


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## Daryl Ehret

_"But this aside,if you are not on drugs or out of your mind you will feel so much pain when a dog bites you you will not even be able to swing a stick or take out you pocketknife and stab the dog. Your body will go in shock."_

I not sure I can agree with that, and even any initial shock might only last milliseconds before adrenalin takes effect.


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## jack van strien

Daryl Ehret said:


> _"But this aside,if you are not on drugs or out of your mind you will feel so much pain when a dog bites you you will not even be able to swing a stick or take out you pocketknife and stab the dog. Your body will go in shock."_
> 
> I not sure I can agree with that, and even any initial shock might only last milliseconds before adrenalin takes effect.


I can tell you your adrenaline will be flowing freely seconds after you realize you are about to be bitten by a dog who means business.You are welcome to try.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Yet many people are able to injure PSD's.


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## Daryl Ehret

I recall one just a couple days ago. Stabbed quite often I think, but I wouldn't know if statistics reveal that drugs are always involved, and _"out of their mind" _could apply to anyone/everyone without better definition.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Not everyone reacts to pain by falling down, some get angry.


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## Jim Nash

This is a myth I really don't want to debunk but I've seen this type of thing stated before and since I'm bored out of my mind today I can't help myself but reply . 

Total BS . I've seen many engagements with PSD's . The vast majority the guy gets smart and stops fighting . It's the stupid criminal that descides to fight a K9 because most K9's will up their intensity in the fight , but come on . Most that fight do feel pain but still can fight through it . Many combative suspects don't feel the pain till after the engagement is done or well into the fight , just like many of the other tools used by police to take a combative suspect into custody . Suspects can fight through alot of things and sustain a lot of damage before being able to stop him/her . 

It doesn't matter if the suspect is on something or not . These guys live hard lifes and have been in many fights and drama . Go into any jail and take a look at many of it's occupants . Most bear scars from shootings , stabbings , past fights , etc. . 

I saw a similiar discussion on this subject years ago and coincidentally it was another KNPV guy that stated the same thing . I love KNPV dogs buy the way and we have a few of them. I remember his response was we (in the US) don't have the types of dogs they do and we get their rejects . 

I'm not going to go into details on what damage I've seen a combative suspect sustain from a K9 but I can tell you that is certainly not the case . Plenty of hard biters and fighters here . I can guarantee you that . I didn't pipe in on that discussion but I wanted to say if there suspects are going into shock from the bite maybe Europian suspects are weaker then the ones we have here in the states .

I would be doing a disservice to the Police K9 Handlers I trained if I led them to believe PSD K9's were all that . It's a team effort and one of many tools that may have to be used to get a fighting suspect into custody .


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## Dwyras Brown

I agree with Jim, some of the guys you see in jail and on the street have been stabbed and shot. These same wounds have caused other people to quit and die. These guys live hard and don't care about fighting a dog. If they win or get away from the dog, its another notch in their belt. Just another war story for their homies. Its the same thing as soldiers being wounded. Some give up and die from flesh wounds, when others sustain life threatening injuries and continue to fight. Its not just the fight in the dog in these situations, its also the fight in the person being bitten.


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## Kadi Thingvall

Daryl Ehret said:


> _"But this aside,if you are not on drugs or out of your mind you will feel so much pain when a dog bites you you will not even be able to swing a stick or take out you pocketknife and stab the dog. Your body will go in shock."_


I have to disagree, and it's from first hand experience. I've been bit, by a dog who was committed to the bite, this wasn't a "hit and run" slash and retreat type thing, it was a committed bite that they maintained once they took it. Yes, it hurt, but I had no problem staying calm, taking that dogs leash and fighting it until I could get it off of me and then helicopter it unconcious. And then I went to the hospital for treatment for the bite. I've also been bit by "hit and run" bites where the dog intended to come back for another shot, and although it hurt (and it was a good bite, I can show you the dental imprints on each side of my leg, the bottom ones are 2 thick tear/scars with thin ones inbetween, the top are perfect teeth impressions), the real pain didn't hit until a few hours later when the muscle damage started to really kick in with swelling, the adrenalin wore off, etc. 

Granted I've been doing this for a LONG time and probably have the frame of mind and experience to stay calm and think how I'm going to fight the dog, something some perps won't have. But others will, and not all will just submit to the pain right away.


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## Daryl Ehret

Hope you don't think you're quoting me. I'd never say that.


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## Kadi Thingvall

Nah, I just hit quote on your post and replied to it, since you quoted Jack but just put the " " around it the auto quote button thingymajig (is that a word?LOL) attributed it to you. It was to late to go back and edit the post when I realized that.


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## Chris McDonald

I didn't pipe in on that discussion but I wanted to say if there suspects are going into shock from the bite maybe Europian suspects are weaker then the ones we have here in the states .</p>This was funny, not politically correct, but funny!


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## David Frost

Jim Nash said:


> Suspects can fight through alot of things and sustain a lot of damage before being able to stop him/her .
> 
> 
> I saw a similiar discussion on this subject years ago and coincidentally it was another KNPV guy that stated the same thing . I love KNPV dogs buy the way and we have a few of them. I remember his response was we (in the US) don't have the types of dogs they do and we get their rejects .
> 
> .


In training with PSD's and I would assume sport as well, there is the occasion "damnit" where someone gets bitten. That is many peoples experience with seeing a dog bite. A few punctures, the person knows what to do and help is usually immediate. An actual bite can be quite brutal. The more the suspect fights, the worse it can get. Even when the dog holds and doesn't have to regrip, flesh tears from the flailing. I agree, many subjects try their best to quit moving. Some don't. Adrenaline can be a very effective pain suppressant. They certainly don't all fold like cheap card tables. 

DFrost


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