# Push or Pull? Preference in biting?



## Fred Hassen

Short article on biting and implementing your preferred technique into everything.

http://www.sitmeanssit.com/blog/pol...ing-the-dog-to-push-or-pull-in-practice-also/


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## Howard Knauf

Zero information on teaching the push. I saw two dogs mouthing a ball...possibly from fear of being stimmed...:-k

Besides....the majority of PSD handlers I know want the pull....counter in.. yes, but pulling the bad guy upon apprehension.


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## will fernandez

Now are you applying stim when the dog counters or when the dog pushes forward.

Would this be the method....neg punishment (by not playing tug) then positive punishment (applying stim) then reward when he re adjusts forward by letting have the toy. 

Am I way off and if I am could you explain the method.

Just curious


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## Fred Hassen

Howard Knauf said:


> Zero information on teaching the push. I saw two dogs mouthing a ball...possibly from fear of being stimmed...:-k
> 
> Besides....the majority of PSD handlers I know want the pull....counter in.. yes, but pulling the bad guy upon apprehension.



I know lots of police officers that prefer the push, sport dog people etc, etc. As I said though, if you prefer a 'pull'.....it's all a moot point.

Lots of videos of the biting here: http://www.youtube.com/my_playlists?p=AC756C4EB37F6C5E


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## Fred Hassen

will fernandez said:


> Now are you applying stim when the dog counters or when the dog pushes forward.
> 
> Would this be the method....neg punishment (by not playing tug) then positive punishment (applying stim) then reward when he re adjusts forward by letting have the toy.
> 
> Am I way off and if I am could you explain the method.
> 
> Just curious


My apologies for not showing it without the collar on. Would you like me to put a video up here with the dog without the collar on? All three dogs are still in town and could easily shoot it. Don't want everyone running off into left field thinking the dog is doing it because of the collar in some manner. Really forgot about the mindset.......apology. Let me know and will re-record easily, then we can have the discussion without emotion.


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## will fernandez

you must have me mistaken for someone else. I am simply asking on the method to teach the behaviour. I am far from emotional. I am just curious. 

I use the ecollar


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## Howard Knauf

will fernandez said:


> you must have me mistaken for someone else. I am simply asking on the method to teach the behaviour. I am far from emotional. I am just curious.
> 
> I use the ecollar


 I've seen it taught with the pinch, but not the ecollar. I'm sure the basics are pretty much the same but knowing how with different equipment can be helpful.


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## Jim Nash

will fernandez said:


> you must have me mistaken for someone else. I am simply asking on the method to teach the behaviour. I am far from emotional. I am just curious.
> 
> I use the ecollar


Will , if you can get Fred to explain anything I'll crap eggrolls . He only posts vids then when asked a training question bails out acting like it's just people against the use of ecollars . I use an ecollar too buy the way .


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## will fernandez

Fred

Are you out there?


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## Howard Knauf

will fernandez said:


> Fred
> 
> Are you out there?



He was here 30 minutes ago. Maybe he's filming the new video for us.


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## Timothy Stacy

This teaches a pushing bite :-s ? LMAO 

Did you dream this technique up? What happened to no advertising? Is this your lesson of the day?


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## will fernandez

Fred 

Is your system similar to NEPOPO (bellon's method)

just want to know---Guess its just a trade secret


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## brad robert

this is absolute bulldust why is this guy allowed to keep doing this he never shares a single bit of theory or relates to us why and how he does things and plays the whole avoidance thing i thought he might have learnt his lesson last time but obviously not.


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## Fred Hassen

Timothy Stacy said:


> This teaches a pushing bite :-s ? LMAO
> 
> Did you dream this technique up? What happened to no advertising? Is this your lesson of the day?


Er....uh......this wasn't an instructional video. I asked if you like your dogs to push or to pull. I like my dogs pushing so I don't let them pull on anything cause I don't want them to get repetitions of that in. Is that difficult to understand? My dogs don't pull on anything........got it?
If you want your dog to pull on everything and anything Timothy, then have at it brother. To each his own.


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## Fred Hassen

brad robert said:


> this is absolute bulldust why is this guy allowed to keep doing this he never shares a single bit of theory or relates to us why and how he does things and plays the whole avoidance thing i thought he might have learnt his lesson last time but obviously not.


Brad, you didn't get it huh? O.K. The 'theory' is that I don't like my dog pulling and only like him pushing. If that's not for you, then great.
Since I don't like him pulling, I don't want him pulling in practice. I thought it was a perfectly clear theory, and after listening, reading and watching again........I really don't see what part of this 'theory' that is incomprehensible to you. Train as you wish, as I wasn't judging you. See my answer to Timothy as well. Beating a dead horse here. I'm sure some of you get it, and some of you don't, and some of you just want to be difficult.


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## Fred Hassen

Jim Nash said:


> Will , if you can get Fred to explain anything I'll crap eggrolls . He only posts vids then when asked a training question bails out acting like it's just people against the use of ecollars . I use an ecollar too buy the way .


Jim, you should have just said: "I like my dog pushing on the bite, but allow him to pull on everything else." Either you are agreeing with me, or you should have just said that instead of saying nothing. O.K. either way with me. So which is it? Do you not have an opinion on the topic?


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## will fernandez

now to teach the dog to push forward on the bite suit....Dog bites man..man stays still... dog readjusts forward man fights a little and takes a step backward. If the dog counters do you stim at a low level until he readjusts and goes forward..then decoy comes alive and stim stops.

am I missing something if so would you be so kind to correct me. I would really like to know.


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## will fernandez

okay can you at least tell me if I m close or way off the mark? Consider it pro-bono I can send you a receipt for a tax deduction.


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## Fred Hassen

will fernandez said:


> now to teach the dog to push forward on the bite suit....Dog bites man..man stays still... dog readjusts forward man fights a little and takes a step backward. If the dog counters do you stim at a low level until he readjusts and goes forward..then decoy comes alive and stim stops.
> 
> am I missing something if so would you be so kind to correct me. I would really like to know.


I don't know what your dog's knowledge is, but my dog, nor 14 year old Mackenzie Aeberli's dog (the young girl in video) would be put in this position til they have mastered our retrieving program where the dog can both drive in and release on a variety of objects. If it's a 'correction based' system that your dog knows with a collar, he's only going to back off. Our dogs know everything from both ends. The decoy is not in control, we are in control of the dog so we have to have the ability to drive him in whether the decoy is static or not. It is not realistic to tell a bad guy "Hey, can you move a little to the left so my dog can get a better bite?". If you can't do everything with a collar from both ends in other 'mouth related' things like retrieving, it ain't gonna magically come on a suit or sleeve. Plus, you also are not going to be able to fix things and keep it right when the dog starts backing up, cause he will just release if the ground work isn't laid. I can't say your dog's understanding of things over the internet obviously........I am speaking how ours are trained. Mackenzie's dog learns all that in our basic program so she can keep the dog clean.
You'd have to know how to fix the dog from pulling with a toy also, which would give you even more knowledge on problem solving. Anyway, it really doesn't matter cause if you can't walk with your dog with something in his mouth without him pulling, and are unable to fix it by whatever means you use (collar, clicker, whatever)......it's gonna be pretty hard to fix with a fighting decoy obviously. So no............ we don't just throw a collar on a dog and stimulate him when he pulls if he doesn't understand our basics. If that works for you, then I'm sure you can do this with no problem and I don't have any problem with people training in different ways.


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## Fred Hassen

will fernandez said:


> okay can you at least tell me if I m close or way off the mark? Consider it pro-bono I can send you a receipt for a tax deduction.


A 14 year old obviously understands it.


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## will fernandez

Thank you. 

So teach the dog that the stim means go forward with the ball. Then transfer that behavior to the bite. (ckiffnotes version)

I would say that any age could understand if it was explained


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## Timothy Stacy

Fred Hassen said:


> My dogs don't pull on anything........got it?
> .


No, please explain further!


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## Thomas Barriano

Fred Hassen said:


> Short article on biting and implementing your preferred technique into everything.
> 
> http://www.sitmeanssit.com/blog/pol...ing-the-dog-to-push-or-pull-in-practice-also/


Fred,

In sport work, for Schutzhund you want the dog to bite full and hard the first time and then pull. In ring sport the emphasis is on the speed/quickness of the bite. So you want the dog to get what ever he can and then readjust in to improve the grip. Also the softer texture of the bite suit compared to the sleeve tends to encourage the dog to want to munch 

Thomas Barriano


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## will fernandez

Why do you need him to pull in SCH when so many training decoys will knock the dogs feet off their body to stop the counter. Again I am just curious.

(just to let it be known I have two dogs one that counters and another that I have trained to push)


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## Fred Hassen

will fernandez said:


> Thank you.
> 
> So teach the dog that the stim means go forward with the ball. Then transfer that behavior to the bite. (ckiffnotes version)
> 
> I would say that any age could understand if it was explained


He'd have to know Alot more because of problem solving. If he pulled and you pushed him with the collar, he could freeze, or that could also make him drop the ball, and he would have to know it means to hold as well, cause if the collar only means 'out' then the collar will get the blame instead of lack of knowledge. Work on that first.


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## David Frost

Jim Nash said:


> Will , if you can get Fred to explain anything I'll crap eggrolls . He only posts vids then when asked a training question bails out acting like it's just people against the use of ecollars . I use an ecollar too buy the way .


Ok, so it won't be Chinese tonight, hmm now what do I want. 

DFrost


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## Thomas Barriano

will fernandez said:


> Why do you need him to pull in SCH when so many training decoys will knock the dogs feet off their body to stop the counter. Again I am just curious.
> 
> (just to let it be known I have two dogs one that counters and another that I have trained to push)


Hi Will

The dog doesn't need to use his feet on the decoy for leverage.
I've seen lots of Schutzhund dogs that just drop their butts as they bite, which sets the grip and uses gravity and momentum
(on the long bite) to pull.

Thomas Barriano


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## Fred Hassen

Thomas Barriano said:


> Fred,
> 
> In sport work, for Schutzhund you want the dog to bite full and hard the first time and then pull. In ring sport the emphasis is on the speed/quickness of the bite. So you want the dog to get what ever he can and then readjust in to improve the grip. Also the softer texture of the bite suit compared to the sleeve tends to encourage the dog to want to munch
> 
> Thomas Barriano


Thomas, I like my dog pushing. Again, it's a moot point if you want your dog pulling for whatever reason. I want him driving through, and releasing when I tell him to. That's just me.


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## Jim Nash

Fred Hassen said:


> Jim, you should have just said: "I like my dog pushing on the bite, but allow him to pull on everything else." Either you are agreeing with me, or you should have just said that instead of saying nothing. O.K. either way with me. So which is it? Do you not have an opinion on the topic?



Ohhhhh............that's what I should have said ! Thanks for the edumacation Fred .

Seriously for my opinion on pushing or pulling it's all right here in an earlier discussion on the subject . 

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f13/pushing-vs-pulling-13707/

As for my opinion on THIS thread . Once again it was simply just more of a chance to advertise your product then start any kind of worthwhile discussion , because history has shown with you that you don't participate in worthwhile discussions . 

You responded to Tim that this wasn't an instructional video . I agree it's just a video of a few dogs chewing on a ball . 


BUT , maybe you should change the title of your video from 

"Protection dog training - TEACHING the dog to push or pull in practice also . " 

if you don't want people pointing out it's not an instructional video .


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## leslie cassian

Wow... all this time I thought my dog was just chewy with his toys and have been trying to teach him to hold calmly (ya know, for the dumbbell retrieve). Little did I know he was just pushing into the bite.


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## brad robert

Hey fred i was not talking in relation to the theory in this video its straight forward i guess, but the theory in other times when pushed you duck and you wont answer and that just bugs me. If you are an expert trainer and your on this sharing forum just once add something people can use cause you seem scared to get judged.Fred your probably twenty times the trainer i am but for christ sake show me something that helps me train my dogs or how you got the end result does this make sense to you fred?

The whole pushing and pulling thing im sure can be taught to some amount but im sure there is also a genetic element and walking around with a ball and not tugging it means nothing to me whats the dog do when he gets pressure put on him and no ecollar my guess he reverts to his genetic strengths.


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## Christopher Jones

I like my dogs to push. Carry on.


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## Fred Hassen

Christopher Jones said:


> I like my dogs to push. Carry on.



Easy enough......thanks.


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## Timothy Stacy

Fred Hassen said:


> Easy enough......thanks.


Funny, the video wasn't for instructional purposes? Then why didn't you just ask the question and leave the video out? Jim is right, just another opportunity for you to promote yourself. You really do all your sit means sit people a disservice by doing this shit!


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## chris haynie

i don't have dog that can do bitework yet, but when i do (soon) i will prefer not being shocked into biting over pushing or pulling.


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## Fred Hassen

Timothy Stacy said:


> Funny, the video wasn't for instructional purposes? Then why didn't you just ask the question and leave the video out? Jim is right, just another opportunity for you to promote yourself. You really do all your sit means sit people a disservice by doing this shit!


Timothy, we all at SMS realize that with a YouTube channel that gets over 20,000 views per day for all of the videos, it is very easy for individuals like yourself to get lost in the shuffle. I did want to personally recognize you, and let you know that we do realize that you are a faithful follower and that we can bet our last bottom dollar that when a video goes up......we can be absolutely certain that Timothy Stacy is going to watch it.

Sometimes it's hard to do a video every single day of the year, but it's knowing that people like you are out there, that will watch rain or shine keeps us moving on. Thanks again, and yes we know you will always deliver and appreciate it. 

I was unlike many others and did not like the movie 'Avatar'. I fell asleep during it. I'm not going to rent it, buy it, or keep watching it on cable. So I did want you to know that I do appreciate your loyalty. I know you will always be there.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Nice of you guys to advertise this shit for him. This guy has it all. Might as well put up huge signs all over this board that say sit means sit. Lets tell every person that comes on here about this confusing ****, with his odd terminology. That way at least we will have a bunch of people getting dogs to do stuff in 15 minutes. Dogtra or whoever will be happy, and send us free shit, as their sales will triple. Shelters will empty and a lot of fat women will be unsatisfied, as now they will have to have children, which involves reproducing, which means more dog guys will get laid as they seem to enjoy fat chicks. The whole world will start to calm down, as everyone will be getting laid. I can hear Lou Armstrong right now.


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## Christopher Jones

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Shelters will empty and a lot of fat women will be unsatisfied, as now they will have to have children, which involves reproducing, which means more dog guys will get laid as they seem to enjoy fat chicks.


lol......what?


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## Jim Nash

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Nice of you guys to advertise this shit for him. This guy has it all. Might as well put up huge signs all over this board that say sit means sit. Lets tell every person that comes on here about this confusing ****, with his odd terminology. That way at least we will have a bunch of people getting dogs to do stuff in 15 minutes. Dogtra or whoever will be happy, and send us free shit, as their sales will triple. Shelters will empty and a lot of fat women will be unsatisfied, as now they will have to have children, which involves reproducing, which means more dog guys will get laid as they seem to enjoy fat chicks. The whole world will start to calm down, as everyone will be getting laid. I can hear Lou Armstrong right now.



You know Jeff when you put it that way Fred ain't such a badguy . Carry on Fred , continue to not teach us anything . I'm not into fat chicks though . 

One thing that confuses me though with Fred's theory and I know Fred can't answer it so if any one else can I'd appreciate it. I understand he doesn't want to encourage pulling on a toy because it may cross over to the bite where he wants it to push . But what I don't get is why he allows the dogs to chew on the toy . Using that same theory isn't he afraid that chewy behavior might cross over to the bite too . Maybe I'm assuming he doesn't want chewiness on a bite like most don't . Also I'm confused why the last women on his video , the one without the ecollar on her dog , had a dog that kept pulling on the toy and later pulled it out of her hand . I thought the video was on his theory about not promoting pulling if you want a dog to push on the bite . Any help would be appreciated . 

Fred thank you for your service to mankind and dogdom .


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I didn't make that clear enough, my bad, the fat chicks at the shelters are getting their emotional needs taken care of by working their. They have love, and drama bla bla bla.


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## will fernandez

I do enjoy the occasional BBW


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## will fernandez

AS you lead the dog in the begining you will be putting slight tension on the string. The dog should try to get the ball deeper in his mouth by moving forward.

If there is no tension there should be no movement. He should just hold it deep in his mouth.

This is how I do it--Cant tell you what Fred does


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Jim, it really is as simple as that. Fred confuses the **** out of a bunch of people, they by his business, then they confuse the **** out of me. I look forward to a brighter world with less confusion once we just start directing people to this system.

In ten years think of what we could accomplish. Every dumb **** in the world gathering in one place to shock their dog into submission. I just want to be the one serving Koolaid.


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## andreas broqvist

I have a to thin and smal suit. So it hurts like hell being biten. So woola she lernd to push herslef becaus it made me move


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## Jim Nash

will fernandez said:


> AS you lead the dog in the begining you will be putting slight tension on the string. The dog should try to get the ball deeper in his mouth by moving forward.
> 
> If there is no tension there should be no movement. He should just hold it deep in his mouth.
> 
> This is how I do it--Cant tell you what Fred does


Thanks . Will . That's how I picture others doing it . Not what I saw in the video though .


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## Jim Nash

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I didn't make that clear enough, my bad, the fat chicks at the shelters are getting their emotional needs taken care of by working their. They have love, and drama bla bla bla.


I got you Jeff . I just consider myself a dog guy and when the fat chicks come callin once the shelters empty out , I'm not interested . I do find skinny women who train dogs strangely attractive though . If they are hot and train dogs , I'm in love .


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## Jim Nash

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Jim, it really is as simple as that. Fred confuses the **** out of a bunch of people, they by his business, then they confuse the **** out of me. I look forward to a brighter world with less confusion once we just start directing people to this system.
> 
> In ten years think of what we could accomplish. Every dumb **** in the world gathering in one place to shock their dog into submission. I just want to be the one serving Koolaid.


I think he confuses himself and figures if he is what the hell everyone else should be too .

That's quite the beautiful picture you painted Jeff . I can almost smell the flesh burning can't you .


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## Timothy Stacy

Fred Hassen said:


> Timothy, we all at SMS realize that with a YouTube channel that gets over 20,000 views per day for all of the videos, it is very easy for individuals like yourself to get lost in the shuffle. I did want to personally recognize you, and let you know that we do realize that you are a faithful follower and that we can bet our last bottom dollar that when a video goes up......we can be absolutely certain that Timothy Stacy is going to watch it.
> 
> Sometimes it's hard to do a video every single day of the year, but it's knowing that people like you are out there, that will watch rain or shine keeps us moving on. Thanks again, and yes we know you will always deliver and appreciate it.
> 
> I was unlike many others and did not like the movie 'Avatar'. I fell asleep during it. I'm not going to rent it, buy it, or keep watching it on cable. So I did want you to know that I do appreciate your loyalty. I know you will always be there.


We need a smiley face that's beating off! 

How's the training going without the E-collar LMAO! Having trouble 8-[ ???? Hahahahahah. Remember the object is to get the dog to do it the first time you ask. Keep working on it.HAHAHA 

It's like a train wreck everytime you post Fred!


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: 
That's quite the beautiful picture you painted Jeff . I can almost smell the flesh burning can't you .

The gene pool would thank us. : )


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## Fred Hassen

Here is a good article on the topic that was in Police K9 magazine.

Bob Campanile is one of our Sit Means Sit location owners, has been a K9 handler for many years, and has placed 3rd at the U.S.P.C.A. National Championships, a long with winning numerous other police dog trials. Here is the article:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Monday, 22 MARCH 2010 23:03 BY BOB CAMPANILE 
Train your dog to win his fight while reducing liability.

In the past 15 years, as I’ve traveled around the United States training police service dogs (PSDs) and observing them in competitions, I’ve noticed that the majority of dogs pull back when biting. Many PSDs have a background in sport training — especially in Schutzhund. During a Schutzhund trial, the helper or decoy drives into the dog, forcing him to pull back when engaged. In my opinion, it’s better for a PSD to drive in and press forward into the decoy when biting. That technique has multiple benefits in real-life street applications as well as on the competition field.

As an avid police K-9 competitor, I can tell you that the benefit of your partner driving into the bite is that it ensures a full-mouth grip. Even if his grip is not initially full, he will regrip and bite fully. He will then continue to drive forward, pushing deeper and deeper into the bite. I believe that is not, and should not be looked at as, a bite adjustment. A bite adjustment is when a dog is mouthing and moving around while biting — a behavior known as typewriting — but that is another subject for debate. This article discusses the advantages of a PSD biting forward rather than pulling back, and describes how to train your canine to do so.

Pulling Versus Pushing

Let’s look at the traditional and most common bite-training method as it applies to real-life street apprehensions. If a PSD engages a suspect using a frontal bite for whatever reason, the dog is going to pull back, causing the flesh to rip or tear. Even worse, if the dog engages a suspect wearing a baggy shirt, jacket, or pants, the PSD pulls back and rips the clothing off the suspect. At this point, one of two things likely will happen. If you have a dog that is extremely civil, he will immediately drop the clothing to reengage the suspect or run off with the torn clothing and bring it back to “dad.” Meanwhile, your shirtless or pantless suspect proceeds to beat feet on the shoe-leather express. The confusion also provides an opportunity for the suspect to shoot you or your partner, should the suspect be armed.

Now let’s look at a different training method. Using this method, we teach the dog to drive into the bite so that he begins to think he can overcome the stress and pressure the decoy is causing him. By continuing to drive deeper into the bite, he believes that he can turn the pressure off. Access to a skilled decoy will help you achieve the best results. It’s a little difficult to explain this training technique in writing, so I’ll just give you the theory here.

Training Theory

To train a forward-driving bite, the decoy must pressure the dog while he is biting, which can be done in several ways. You can use stick hits, shaker cans, yelling, or screaming — or even something as simple as intense, direct eye contact with the dog. Training is accomplished a little at a time by layering each session.

Your decoy begins working your dog. Remember, your decoy is your dog’s helper — he must not be adversarial all of the time; there is a time and place for provocation. As the dog engages the decoy, the decoy begins to walk backward, taking the dog with him. The decoy also can gently pull the dog forward by means of a line hooked to the dog’s flat collar. As the decoy does that, he works the dog’s grip, trying to make it as full as possible. When the dog makes any movement forward by driving deeper or fuller, the decoy steps backward, makes a submissive noise, and exhibits a submissive posture. In this stage of training, your dog begins to understand that if he drives forward and bites deeper, the bad guy or prey appears to get hurt and begins to submit. Result: the dog believes he is winning the fight. Some theatrics are involved with this method, so the decoy may need to brush up on his or her acting lessons.

As training progresses, the decoy begins to introduce some of the pressure described earlier. As pressure begins, the dog drives forward, whereupon the decoy stops the pressure and shows exaggerated submission. Before you know it, your dog begins to believe he can defeat anyone, regardless of whether they are screaming, punching, kicking, or hitting him with a weapon. All he has to do is bite deeper and drive forward. Basically you are teaching your dog to turn off the pressure by countering, thus winning the fight. You will find that this training may progress a bit faster if you start with a green dog that has had only a basic foundation in bite work.

Additional Advantages

There are other advantages to using the training method discussed here. You can teach the dog that he can activate a passive decoy. When he engages a totally static decoy, he bites deep and drives in. Through the decoy’s reaction, the dog learns that he has the ability to turn on or activate the decoy, hence the fight begins and the dog ultimately wins. In addition, most often you will achieve better pain compliance without increasing serious tissue or other physical damage. The result is that a suspect will have fewer grounds for a lawsuit.

I encourage all dog handlers to try the method discussed here. I think you will be very satisfied with the results.


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## Howard Gaines III

Jim Nash said:


> I got you Jeff . I just consider myself a dog guy and when the fat chicks come callin once the shelters empty out , I'm not interested . I do find skinny women who train dogs strangely attractive though . If they are hot and train dogs , I'm in love .


Oh you cheap and shallow person...never looked at the hooters?! :mrgreen:


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## Howard Knauf

Fred,

I read that article a few months ago.....didn't see ecollar protocol in it....it's an argument for the push. What's your point?


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## Timothy Stacy

Howard Knauf said:


> Fred,
> 
> I read that article a few months ago.....didn't see ecollar protocol in it....it's an argument for the push. What's your point?


You skipped right over the point 

"Bob Campanile is one of our Sit Means Sit location owners, has been a K9 handler for many years, and has placed 3rd at the U.S.P.C.A. National Championships, a long with winning numerous other police dog trials"
:-\":-\":-\":-\":-\":-\":-\":-\":-\":-\":-\":-\":-\":-\":-\":-\":-\":-\":-\":-\":-\":-\":-\"


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## Fred Hassen

Howard Knauf said:


> Fred,
> 
> I read that article a few months ago.....didn't see ecollar protocol in it....it's an argument for the push. What's your point?



I didn't throw all the ecollar stuff into the original video, you guys did so it's just consistent with my original question of whether you like your dogs pushing or pulling. You guys just see an ecollar, and then you start just putting all your uninformed spin on what is happening in the video. Besides that, I would have to agree with you on 'what's your point?' for all the additional nonsense about the ecollar.
I even asked if you guys wanted to see it without the collar on, but the same few come climbing out of the woodwork and start all the yappin' about what's going on with the collar and the video. Simple video, simple question about do you like your dogs pushing or pulling........and you guys are off to the races. There isn't a peep in the audio about the ecollar either other than all riff raff that has to be sorted through on your end. Oh, and yes.......Bob Campanile has to take his collar off when he placed 3rd at the Nationals, and all the local trials he won, so I'll save you the additional stupid comments about the dog not even being able to probably walk, let alone even come out of the car if he takes it off. I'm sure the educated collar folk out there......and yes, there are some, cause I have private email as well, all get a big kick out of the same 4 or 5 using the same prehistoric 1920 catch phrases over, and over, and over, and over, and over again. Yes, what's the point?


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## Guest

I think with better nanotechnology we'll be able to overcome some of these roadblocks we currently have in terms of dog control hardware.

Right now, standard USB ports are way too big to plug into the correct part of the dog's brain.

E-collars may be stone age technology in a few short decades.

With Fred's pending patents, we'll soon have all the control and none of physical manifesations of stress and confusion. When we can by-pass all the useless social behaviors and primitive emotions of dogs, then we'll really have some working fools.

I hear Ashton Fitz-gerald is going to engineering school to study hydraulics, so we can install things into dogs to make them bite harder too.

All you idiots who're wasting your time with selective breeding? You're on borrowed time.


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## Jim Nash

Fred Hassen said:


> I didn't throw all the ecollar stuff into the original video, you guys did so it's just consistent with my original question of whether you like your dogs pushing or pulling. You guys just see an ecollar, and then you start just putting all your uninformed spin on what is happening in the video. Besides that, I would have to agree with you on 'what's your point?' for all the additional nonsense about the ecollar.
> I even asked if you guys wanted to see it without the collar on, but the same few come climbing out of the woodwork and start all the yappin' about what's going on with the collar and the video. Simple video, simple question about do you like your dogs pushing or pulling........and you guys are off to the races. There isn't a peep in the audio about the ecollar either other than all riff raff that has to be sorted through on your end. Oh, and yes.......Bob Campanile has to take his collar off when he placed 3rd at the Nationals, and all the local trials he won, so I'll save you the additional stupid comments about the dog not even being able to probably walk, let alone even come out of the car if he takes it off. I'm sure the educated collar folk out there......and yes, there are some, cause I have private email as well, all get a big kick out of the same 4 or 5 using the same prehistoric 1920 catch phrases over, and over, and over, and over, and over again. Yes, what's the point?


I've been part of the 2000 USPCA National Championship team , as well as other teams placing 2nd , thru 5th Place numerous times . I do ok in competition and do even better on the street doing it for real where it's the most important . What you fail to get is I use the E-collar too . 

I find it funny that for you to even attempt to explain anything you have to post someone elses article .


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## Fred Hassen

Jim Nash said:


> I've been part of the 2000 USPCA National Championship team , as well as other teams placing 2nd , thru 5th Place numerous times . I do ok in competition and do even better on the street doing it for real where it's the most important . What you fail to get is I use the E-collar too .
> 
> I find it funny that for you to even attempt to explain anything you have to post someone elses article .


Jim, another useless go round to the question. Do you prefer your dog pushing or pulling? Yes, I get the part that your the shit, and I suck........now let's get back on board as to the simple question. Do you prefer pushing or pulling? 

1. I put up a topic.
2. I showed in video one of the things I do so my dog doesn't get in the habit of pulling, because I like him to push.
3. I put up an article further stating some evidence about pushing.

Let me slow down a little bit for you. DO....YOU....PREFER.....YOUR....DOG....PUSHING......OR......PULLING.

NO, I don't really care that you know all about ecollars, or that you use them, or that you don't use them. I don't really care. I'm just being clear because when i start just ignoring your nonsense, you will very clearly understand why, and not just because I don't want to answer your question. 

You win! You know everything about ecollars, and everything about how I train my dog and everything else. If you want to start a discussion on how much you know about all this stuff, then certainly don't let me stop you. Take it to another thread, and yell at everyone else. Now if you want to say whether you like your dog pushing or pulling........great! I really don't care about the rest of your genius on the topic of ecollars, and when I do.......I'll be sure to email you and ask.


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## Howard Knauf

He didn't explain anything. He was bragging about one of his charges.

I guess technically Fred WAS just asking what our opinion is on the push vs pull...his history is to use his sales videos to preempt such discussion. I give up. For the record, I like both...hows that for committment Jim?:mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen:

BTW....allegations of private emails for your support would bode well if at least one (other than Thomas) came to your defense.


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## Jim Nash

Fred Hassen said:


> Jim, another useless go round to the question. Do you prefer your dog pushing or pulling? Yes, I get the part that your the shit, and I suck........now let's get back on board as to the simple question. Do you prefer pushing or pulling?
> 
> 1. I put up a topic.
> 2. I showed in video one of the things I do so my dog doesn't get in the habit of pulling, because I like him to push.
> 3. I put up an article further stating some evidence about pushing.
> 
> Let me slow down a little bit for you. DO....YOU....PREFER.....YOUR....DOG....PUSHING......OR......PULLING.
> 
> NO, I don't really care that you know all about ecollars, or that you use them, or that you don't use them. I don't really care. I'm just being clear because when i start just ignoring your nonsense, you will very clearly understand why, and not just because I don't want to answer your question.
> 
> You win! You know everything about ecollars, and everything about how I train my dog and everything else. If you want to start a discussion on how much you know about all this stuff, then certainly don't let me stop you. Take it to another thread, and yell at everyone else. Now if you want to say whether you like your dog pushing or pulling........great! I really don't care about the rest of your genius on the topic of ecollars, and when I do.......I'll be sure to email you and ask.



I like turtles .


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## Howard Knauf

Fred Hassen said:


> You win! You know everything about ecollars, and everything about how I train my dog and everything else. .



Honestly Fred....since you've been here all I learned from you was that to learn your way of training with an ecollar you have to pay for your classes. Your little baiting tidbits with no follow ups of substance is aggravating.


Dirty Howie Out....


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## Timothy Stacy

Jim Nash said:


> I like turtles .


HEHEHE. Well, I like cookies!


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## Timothy Stacy

I know how to end this 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-eF7APJlgo


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## Jim Nash

Fred Hassen said:


> Jim, another useless go round to the question. Do you prefer your dog pushing or pulling? Yes, I get the part that your the shit, and I suck........now let's get back on board as to the simple question. Do you prefer pushing or pulling?
> 
> 1. I put up a topic.
> 2. I showed in video one of the things I do so my dog doesn't get in the habit of pulling, because I like him to push.
> 3. I put up an article further stating some evidence about pushing.
> 
> Let me slow down a little bit for you. DO....YOU....PREFER.....YOUR....DOG....PUSHING......OR......PULLING.
> 
> NO, I don't really care that you know all about ecollars, or that you use them, or that you don't use them. I don't really care. I'm just being clear because when i start just ignoring your nonsense, you will very clearly understand why, and not just because I don't want to answer your question.
> 
> You win! You know everything about ecollars, and everything about how I train my dog and everything else. If you want to start a discussion on how much you know about all this stuff, then certainly don't let me stop you. Take it to another thread, and yell at everyone else. Now if you want to say whether you like your dog pushing or pulling........great! I really don't care about the rest of your genius on the topic of ecollars, and when I do.......I'll be sure to email you and ask.



I know words are tough for you so I'll show you video so you understand it better .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMNry4PE93Y


Honestly Fred , earlier in this discussion I posted a link to a much better discussion about Pushing vs Pulling where I state my preference . 

I figured you wouldn't read it because you actually have no interest in the subject of Pushing vs Pulling much less interest in my preference . If you were truely interested you would have read the link .

Just further proof you started this thread simply to advertise your product . Nothing more .


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## Timothy Stacy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0u266b7guc&feature=related

Lock it


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## Fred Hassen

Jim Nash said:


> I know words are tough for you so I'll show you video so you understand it better .
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMNry4PE93Y
> 
> 
> Honestly Fred , earlier in this discussion I posted a link to a much better discussion about Pushing vs Pulling where I state my preference .
> 
> I figured you wouldn't read it because you actually have no interest in the subject of Pushing vs Pulling much less interest in my preference . If you were truely interested you would have read the link .
> 
> Just further proof you started this thread simply to advertise your product . Nothing more .


Your half right. I didn't read it, cause I already know that there isn't going to be a video within a hundred yards of any post of yours, and I stay in the video section cause I learn from watching. That's me.
Everyone talks a good game, but the talking has a lot more punch to it in my book, when I've SEEN the knowledge. That's just me. 

Now, if Martine Loots jumped in and left a post, I'd read it in a second, cause the chances are high it would have a video that I could learn something from (this is the video section), and she's earned my respect for what she writes cause I've seen it in her dogs time and time again. There are others so I'm not trying to shun anyone. I only know you on 2 levels. I've never seen your work, and you constantly knock mine. So, that brings me to the conclusion that you probably don't have a video, which I'm sure is the case, and your training style is probably way off base from mine, and I've never SEEN anything from you to want me to change from what I'm doing.
Look, I'm an open minded guy..........Start showing me some work that will make me turn my head and you've got my ear. I certainly am not going to jump in on your article and start blasting you. 

I don't say much to people until I've seen their dog. I will say this much though...........as much negative stuff as you have to say, you must have a hell of a lot up your sleeve. I'll meet you, and some of the others one day. It will happen, it's a small world. When I do, I'll be looking awful close at what you've got going. In my mind I'll be thinking one of only two things, and I'll share those with you.

The first of the only two possible scenarios would be:

"All the shit that guy was badgering me about and THAT is what he is bringing to the table!!!!". I'll politely walk away then.

The second scenario would be: "You know, I can now see why this guy laughed at me so much, cause he's got all kinds of shit up his sleeve and I really need to know this stuff!!" I would then come up and apologize for everything I've ever said that you may have taken wrong and do what I could to get to learn more from you.

One thing is for certain in both situations. I will judge you on your dog training abilities and your knowledge.......period. Distance, family, and other factors would make it so it is more than unlikely that we'd be out having lunch and beers together every day, so I'm not going to play the 'we're still friends' card. 

You may be the nicest guy in the world, or the not so nicest guy in the world, but my judgement of you here is on your dog training knowledge and ability cause it's my life and it's what I live, eat, and sleep. 

We'll meet one day, and there is a good chance of that, and you will know exactly what is going through my mind. So until then.......peace.


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## Timothy Stacy

I'll take 3 Sham WOWS for 19.95, 2 snuggies and a 1 slap chop.

Fred all anyone asked here is for you to stop selling shit, it's that easy. You said you would and now your right back at it!


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## Jim Nash

Fred Hassen said:


> Your half right. I didn't read it, cause I already know that there isn't going to be a video within a hundred yards of any post of yours, and I stay in the video section cause I learn from watching. That's me.
> Everyone talks a good game, but the talking has a lot more punch to it in my book, when I've SEEN the knowledge. That's just me.
> 
> Now, if Martine Loots jumped in and left a post, I'd read it in a second, cause the chances are high it would have a video that I could learn something from (this is the video section), and she's earned my respect for what she writes cause I've seen it in her dogs time and time again. There are others so I'm not trying to shun anyone. I only know you on 2 levels. I've never seen your work, and you constantly knock mine. So, that brings me to the conclusion that you probably don't have a video, which I'm sure is the case, and your training style is probably way off base from mine, and I've never SEEN anything from you to want me to change from what I'm doing.
> Look, I'm an open minded guy..........Start showing me some work that will make me turn my head and you've got my ear. I certainly am not going to jump in on your article and start blasting you.
> 
> I don't say much to people until I've seen their dog. I will say this much though...........as much negative stuff as you have to say, you must have a hell of a lot up your sleeve. I'll meet you, and some of the others one day. It will happen, it's a small world. When I do, I'll be looking awful close at what you've got going. In my mind I'll be thinking one of only two things, and I'll share those with you.
> 
> The first of the only two possible scenarios would be:
> 
> "All the shit that guy was badgering me about and THAT is what he is bringing to the table!!!!". I'll politely walk away then.
> 
> The second scenario would be: "You know, I can now see why this guy laughed at me so much, cause he's got all kinds of shit up his sleeve and I really need to know this stuff!!" I would then come up and apologize for everything I've ever said that you may have taken wrong and do what I could to get to learn more from you.
> 
> One thing is for certain in both situations. I will judge you on your dog training abilities and your knowledge.......period. Distance, family, and other factors would make it so it is more than unlikely that we'd be out having lunch and beers together every day, so I'm not going to play the 'we're still friends' card.
> 
> You may be the nicest guy in the world, or the not so nicest guy in the world, but my judgement of you here is on your dog training knowledge and ability cause it's my life and it's what I live, eat, and sleep.
> 
> We'll meet one day, and there is a good chance of that, and you will know exactly what is going through my mind. So until then.......peace.


Fred , want me to stop getting on you , then stop with all this lame sh** and participate in a discussion . Explain some of the stuff on your videos . When it comes to videos involving ecollar work , just the video doesn't explain much . We don't know when , if or why your are stimming the dog . For the most part all it show's is a video of a dog performance at that time . Try explaining how you got to that point . 

But I and many others have stated that before and you simply won't engage in any type of actual training discussion . You're not fooling me , you're simply advertising . You have no intention of giving anything away for free or maybe just incapable of doing so . 

You may meet me some day and I'll tell you to your face what I've said here and dude you'd walk away anyways because your that good at avoidance . Unlike many folks on the internet I'm actually not hard to find if you do a little reading and video of my dog and others I trained have not been a secret on the small screen either . I'm not hiding , never have and never will . Actually once again you would be wrong , this time about me not posting a video on that thread . I actually did post one of our dogs engaging a badguy for real . Not work to win trophies but what our dogs are really expected to do . 

Don't like what I'm saying try doing what I and many others have asked of you over and over again . You may just change my mind until then I just have your video advertisements that serve to leave me with the impression you are just a salesman .


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## Fred Hassen

Jim Nash said:


> Fred , want me to stop getting on you , then stop with all this lame sh** and participate in a discussion . Explain some of the stuff on your videos . When it comes to videos involving ecollar work , just the video doesn't explain much . We don't know when , if or why your are stimming the dog . For the most part all it show's is a video of a dog performance at that time . Try explaining how you got to that point .
> 
> But I and many others have stated that before and you simply won't engage in any type of actual training discussion . You're not fooling me , you're simply advertising . You have no intention of giving anything away for free or maybe just incapable of doing so .
> 
> You may meet me some day and I'll tell you to your face what I've said here and dude you'd walk away anyways because your that good at avoidance . Unlike many folks on the internet I'm actually not hard to find if you do a little reading and video of my dog and others I trained have not been a secret on the small screen either . I'm not hiding , never have and never will . Actually once again you would be wrong , this time about me not posting a video on that thread . I actually did post one of our dogs engaging a badguy for real . Not work to win trophies but what our dogs are really expected to do .
> 
> Don't like what I'm saying try doing what I and many others have asked of you over and over again . You may just change my mind until then I just have your video advertisements that serve to leave me with the impression you are just a salesman .


Do you do any bitework during any of your first session obedience classes? Any feelings on doing that? We'll probably show something like this at the K9 cop conference if someone brings a bite crazy loony Mal. If you know one or anyone else does, bring him to the conference and we'll walk you through it. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqda0bmH--Y


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## Edward Egan

OMG, lock it, or CHARGE Fred per post. 

I have never read any of his posts that are really ment to help someone train. Isn't that what this board is supose to be?

Lock it or CHARGE!!!#-o#-o#-o


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## Jim Nash

Fred Hassen said:


> Do you do any bitework during any of your first session obedience classes? Any feelings on doing that? We'll probably show something like this at the K9 cop conference if someone brings a bite crazy loony Mal. If you know one or anyone else does, bring him to the conference and we'll walk you through it.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqda0bmH--Y


#1 No . 

#2 For my first session in OB I like to teach the OB commands without distractions so he can get a clear understanding of what I want since it's all new to the dog . I like for the bitework to come later after a good foundation in Ob has been established . Distractions in OB come later and bitework with another dog could be one of the distractions .

#3 I know of plenty of bite crazy Mals . 

#4 So far I have no reason to get involved in one of your seminars . Start participating in training discussions here and show me what you've got and I may change my mind . 

See it's not tough for me to answer questions . Let's see you do the same .

Nice advertisement . Again .


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## Gerry Grimwood

Fred Hassen said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqda0bmH--Y


Why do you wear half a hat ?


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## Fred Hassen

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Why do you wear half a hat ?


It's a visor. Not always, and in the sun a lot.
Here's a shot without it. I'm really into hunting dogs also.
www.YouTube.com/fredhassen

also wedding shots here: http://www.myspace.com/fredhassen


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## Gerry Grimwood

Fred Hassen said:


> www.YouTube.com/fredhassen


We have a Bass Pro shop here, I could live there.

http://www.basspro.com/webapp/wcs/s...reId=10151&appID=94&langId=-1&catalogId=10001


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## Howard Knauf

Fred Hassen said:


> Now, if Martine Loots jumped in and left a post, I'd read it in a second, cause the chances are high it would have a video that I could learn something from (this is the video section), and she's earned my respect for what she writes cause I've seen it in her dogs time and time again.


 Read your words carefully. You can only learn from a video if there is real time narration, or detail info later. You do neither. You take from Martine...but never give back. You take from others but don't give back. Your french fried Mal doesn't impress me.

I dub you "Friar Fred"=D>=D>:-D:-D


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## Fred Hassen

Gerry Grimwood said:


> We have a Bass Pro shop here, I could live there.
> 
> http://www.basspro.com/webapp/wcs/s...reId=10151&appID=94&langId=-1&catalogId=10001


Yeah, they have everything! That stuff was on the news all morning and they did a good job of promoting the event.


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## Jim Nash

Fred Hassen said:


> Yeah, they have everything! That stuff was on the news all morning and they did a good job of promoting the event.


Promoting . Now that's something you've shown you know alot about .


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## Edward Egan

Maybe we need some personnel attacks or talk politics in everyone of his post!

Personally I think our goverment is a bunch of money grabbing, self promoting bandits!

Lock me! Lock Me! Lock Me!, please!

Now you have to admitt the above political statement does have simularities here, no?


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## brad robert

Jim owns Fred in everyway period.

Dont waste your breath jim you have nothing to prove a police k9 handler and ex competitor says alot.

Mean while fred says very little that means anything.I too love when he wont tell when he stims or any other finer detail.


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## Christopher Jones

Fred Hassen said:


> Do you do any bitework during any of your first session obedience classes? Any feelings on doing that? We'll probably show something like this at the K9 cop conference if someone brings a bite crazy loony Mal. If you know one or anyone else does, bring him to the conference and we'll walk you through it.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqda0bmH--Y


So whats a "Sit means sit collar"?
It looks similar to my "Shut the F___ up collar" and my "If you dig one more f______ hole collar"


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## Fred Hassen

Christopher Jones said:


> So whats a "Sit means sit collar"?
> It looks similar to my "Shut the F___ up collar" and my "If you dig one more f______ hole collar"



It's a collar that SportDog did for me that I put all of the different modes, settings, etc that are different than any of the other models.
We also put other different features on ours like the antenna etc.
Our collar is also the only one on the market that has a 'Lifetime guarantee' meaning that no matter what happens to it, even if your pet elephant steps on it, we will replace it as long as you send back in the parts. In other words, even if it's run over by your car sweep up the parts and return and we will replace it. It will only cost you shipping. We are just not going to replace it if you just say you lost it or something and have nothing to send back obviously. It has our name and logo on it.........thus the name 'Sit Means Sit Collar'.
Our company trains more people to use electronic collars than anyone else on the planet by far, thus we were able to work something out with the company where we have our own product, that we are constantly able to upgrade under my supervision. We have had the product about 3 years now, and I believe I am on about the 8th change of constantly keeping up with things in technology as they change.


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## Edward Egan

Yet another ad for SMS. Good job Fred! If I've learned anything from you, it's promotion! :roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll:

Did anyone see Obama on the from page of the Enguire?


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## Jim Nash

Edward Egan said:


> Yet another ad for SMS. Good job Fred! If I've learned anything from you, it's promotion! :roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll:
> 
> Did anyone see Obama on the from page of the Enguire?


Yep Fred's at the top of his game now . First it was under the guise of starting a discussion about pushing v pulling . Now it's just blatant . He's a spammer .


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## Jackie Lockard

Fred Hassen said:


> It's a collar that SportDog did for me that I put all of the different modes, settings, etc that are different than any of the other models.
> We also put other different features on ours like the antenna etc.
> Our collar is also the only one on the market that has a 'Lifetime guarantee' meaning that no matter what happens to it, even if your pet elephant steps on it, we will replace it as long as you send back in the parts. In other words, even if it's run over by your car sweep up the parts and return and we will replace it. It will only cost you shipping. We are just not going to replace it if you just say you lost it or something and have nothing to send back obviously. It has our name and logo on it.........thus the name 'Sit Means Sit Collar'.
> Our company trains more people to use electronic collars than anyone else on the planet by far, thus we were able to work something out with the company where we have our own product, that we are constantly able to upgrade under my supervision. We have had the product about 3 years now, and I believe I am on about the 8th change of constantly keeping up with things in technology as they change.



Hold on now, this might have to be the first time you've actually answered a question here.; I think that deserves a little recognition! Now why can you answer questions when they promote your business but you still won't explain to us, how, when, and why you're stimming your training dogs???


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## Howard Knauf

Friar Fred....."Don't look at how I'm doing it...just look at the result"


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## Jeff Oehlsen

can you hear the remote ?? de de de de de de de de de de de de de d 

de de de de de de de de de de de de de de de de de de 

If it was a leash correction, the dogs neck would be bleeding from the irritation.


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