# Heeling Issues



## Sarah Mark (Jul 11, 2006)

Reading the 'left turns' thread made me think about my own dog's heelwork. Its a mess! She forges and crowds really badly. 

During foundation training I spent a lot of time doing right hand circles and turns away from the dog using a ball on a rope. In my ignorance, I thought it would be a simple matter to 'straighten her out' later on. Yeah, right. She is a very hectic, prey-drivey 3yrs GSD bitch. Her focus is very good.

Here are some things I have tried

Heeling very slowly 
Heeling with very quick tiny steps little forward movement
Heeling next to a wall/barrier
Lots of left turns and left circles
Back to basics, 'find the leg' method
Small movements backwards,sideways etc in basic position
Compulsion/pressure

All the above are successful at that time, but translating that into correct position during normal forward heeling is proving elusive.

I read through the other thread with interest but don't wish to hijack, I wonder if anyone has any ideas? All gratefully received.

Thanks,

Sarah


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

I know you've tried much of what I'm about to write but maybe there is something that will help.

I train to find the leg but for me and the dog, the exercise is really sit at my side and look at me. In the beginning and even randomly now, I would have him sit at my side for 1-4 minutes and look at me. Then I might take ONE step and make him sit and look at me.

All my dog does is do what he has to do to get to the next sit. Of course in the early stages I rewarded him for walking and looking but when he understood the concept now he's only rewarded when he's correctly in the sitting position. I trained using only food and a clicker at first because he was always too jazzed up to play tug.

The other thing I did was work in corners and along side walls for weeks before I ever let him heel out in the open. I would stand close enough to the wall where the was only enough room for the dog. I would step right, left and move sideways. This was solid before I made him ever take more than two steps forward. 

I wouldn't use compulsion on this exercise you can always tell when dogs have been taught that way because they walk along and are looking to avoid being yanked or swatted. The only thing my dogs expect is that we will sit eventually and then play tug or do something fun.

When my dogs started forging at first I would stop and if they were out of position, they didn't get rewarded they quickly learned that position matters or there is no reward. I was told that if my dog is forging then I was teaching too much too fast. I don't know if that applies to your or not.

Working in corners and along side walls will force your dog to always be in the correct position. I also train the heel off lead and sans collar at first. Then I add distraction and a collar and lead are nothing more than distraction. I like using no collar and lead because this is an exercise that means you ALWAYS do it when I say. I've seen dogs that see certain equipment as a cue to do certain behaviors. The only cue he has is the word. Keep it positive and keep it fun.

Have you trained train this exercise when your dog is tired?


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Dogs knows what to do. Has been taught motivationally, with several methods. Performs the behavior when not moving forward.

I would probably move on to adding compulsion into training in drive. Adding correction without taking away reward and without asking for the impossible.

Set your dog to heel, ask for a sit-stay. Reward highly with play. Repeat. Take one step. Two steps. and build duration in randon variable. As soon as your dog forges or crowds, mark the behavior with a "no" or "ot" and deliver a correction (preferably in the direction the dog needs to go). The correction gets your dog into the correct position and REWARD THE CORRECT POSITION that comes immediately after the correction.

Drive-Compulsion-Drive won't lower your dog's drive or enthusiasm for the work.

Remember that right turns build drive, left turns gain control. For a drivey dog, two lefts for every right. 

To minimize corrections, use turns to bring your dog into position. Dog forges, turn right about. Dog crowds, turn left. Forget the concept of walking in a straight line for awhile.


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## marcy bukkit (Oct 4, 2007)

I find it helpful to have the dog sitting in heel with attention, then step off in a brisk walk. The brisk walking keeps the dog's interest in you. Take only a step of heeling and then release the dog with a reward. Then take two steps and release, then three. Then start to gradually vary and build the number of steps.

If the dog gets hectic - stop, let the dog settle, try again later and with fewer steps. Turns can overwhelm a dog who is a hectic heeler.


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## Sarah Mark (Jul 11, 2006)

Thanks everyone for taking the time to help.

Chris - you know, I have NEVER trained heeling when the dog is tired. That's certainly something to try.

I find she does respond to drive-compulsion-drive and recovers well from a correction - its just it doesn't seem to register with her, what the correction was for. I think she is too fizzed up to think straight. 

I will try making the whole thing very low-key and hardly moving, lots of find-the-leg stuff, also after some fast two-ball so she is a bit tired.

Thanks again,

Sarah


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Start dropping the ball from your armpit with the dog in sit in heel position. Teach the dog to yield to leash pressure and practice left quarter turns in place using the leash to guide the dog's butt to the back and right. Do right step-overs and use the leash to guide the dog into position. As these two get good, start doing left about turns in place always dropping the toy from the left armpit.


At this point do not "correct" or "punish" the dog for being out of position, just use the leash to guide him there then reward him when he is there.

Lisa


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

When I was out training earlier today I asked the guys what they do for forging. 

Prong collar with a short leash wrapped around their back, the lead is held in the right hand. There's no pressure on the collar and the instant the dog feels the prong start to tighten he knows he's getting out of position and a correction is coming.

I can't say anymore as I've never had to use this method.


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## Sarah Mark (Jul 11, 2006)

There's lots of good advice here. Thanks a lot everyone.

I need to practice some stepovers.


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## Tim Bartlett (May 21, 2007)

This weekend I made a short video clip showing the use of a touch stick to teach the dog to keep his hind end in alignment with his front in heeling. 

The dog in the video was imported from France at three years old. He had traditional ring style contact heeling with the dog leaning against the handler's left leg with no eye contact (similar to the style some teach dogs for the back transport.) Add to this a dog trained with very harsh compulsion (came with multiple scars on neck from e-collar and sharpened prong) who had no prior experience with reward based training. After a week of teaching him to play tug (he ducked the first time I offered him the tug) I started to work on his heeling.

If this dog's heeling could be redone, any dog's can.

On the clips where a "cue" to move the hind end over is used I have made note of it on the title screen that precedes the clip. You will have to look carefully to see the contact as the dog has been taught to move off very light pressure. When the dog has learned to yield to the contact you can touch on the shoulder to get the front end in, along the rib cage to move the entire dog closer or on the hip to move the hind end in.

It is important to reward up over the dogs head and to the left. You will notice I do not drop the toy from my left armpit with this dog. One of the French Ring obedience exercises is the seen retrieve where the dog sees the handler drop and object (usually a sock) and automatically drops out of heel position to grab it. Because Villier has been taught to jump and grab the "sock" on the unseen retrieve, I have found it is too dangerous to drop the reward object from my left armpit but under normal circumstances I recommend it. Because crowding is also a problem for Villier, I end throw the reward back over his head and away from me to minimize his motivation to lean against me.

Good luck Sarah. To me one of the most pleasurable things to watch is a dog with dynamic yet correct heeling.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4b27-VYuZ18


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## Tim Bartlett (May 21, 2007)

Oops! The post above was made by me, Lisa, not Tim.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Thanks for sharing that vid!!!

how is the dog without the stick and the handler's left arm in that position? 

The reason I ask is because I once observed a dog at another club that was taught in the same fashion. And when there was no stick and no arm the dog didn't perform as well. I also noted the hander wasn't a very experienced handler to begin with so I'm sure things are very different for you.


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## Tim Bartlett (May 21, 2007)

No, it is always somewhat challenging to fade prompts. At this point I rarely use the touch stick for heeling sessions now. I used it for this session to illustrate its use. As always, it is hard to keep your left shoulder forward when using a tool in your left hand. I do break out the touch stick occasionally when we change fields as he is more likely to revert back to his original heeling style when he is more aroused.

At this point we have put the behaviors on cue ("au pied" for getting into position and to remind him of his obligation to stay there, "look" to remind him to watch his focal point and "back" to remind him to move his rear to the right or back in place) and I use an e-collar correction if he does not comply. At this point the only place I usually have to remind him is in the bitework. Although, I did learn my lesson about the dog focusing on the handler in the Mondioring defense of handler (gonna leave a nasty scar). I still hold him accountable for proper position in heeling and good clean left turns during protection and expect focus when heeling between exercises.

If you want pretty heeling, you never stop using your tools completely. Just like you never stop rewarding the behaviors in whole or part. You just have to get good at stretching the upper limits and testing your dog's progress without forgetting that you should still sometimes reward that first step out or a good left turn even if it comes early in the training session.

Villier is a project I am super proud of. One because I am retraining a behavior that he spent almost four years having beaten into him and two because in retraining this and other behaviors, I have learned much about the true temperament of this dog. Many dogs cannot be held to such a high standard of performance when they are raised in the program. As you can see by his attitude in the video he thrives on being held to this level of accountability. He is one of those dogs who just vibrates next to you in the heeling with the pleasure that comes from finally being in sync with his handler.

For the ringsports, this type of heeling is pretty much a waste of time but it sure is fun to train.

Lisa


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## Sarah Mark (Jul 11, 2006)

Lisa, many thanks for posting the video. I really enjoyed watching it. A touch stick is something I have never thought of using. Best of luck with Villier, it sounds like the dog is lucky to have you.

I will post back on my progress with my bitch in a few weeks all being well.

Thanks everyone,

Sarah


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I fixed Buko's heeling by going really long distances and using compulsion when he was being rediculous. the rest of the time, if he was right, I patted him on the head. I started with 1/4 mile, then 1/2 mile, then 1 mile ect. I think that I spent too much time getting turns right, too much time with stupid no compulsion methods LOL, and it showed in his determination to walk with his ass at my hip, and not his shoulder.

The long distances focusing on HEEL position, really did the trick, as I didn't have to think about where the end of the field was, and just focused on what I was wanting from the dog.

Should of stuck with this from the beginning. Maybe with the new pup.


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I fixed Buko's heeling by going really long distances and using compulsion when he was being rediculous. the rest of the time, if he was right, I patted him on the head. I started with 1/4 mile, then 1/2 mile, then 1 mile ect. I think that I spent too much time getting turns right, too much time with stupid no compulsion methods LOL, and it showed in his determination to walk with his ass at my hip, and not his shoulder.
> 
> The long distances focusing on HEEL position, really did the trick, as I didn't have to think about where the end of the field was, and just focused on what I was wanting from the dog.
> 
> Should of stuck with this from the beginning. Maybe with the new pup.


Wouldn't suggest the same method with the new pup. Buko had a foundation of focus heeling when you acquired him. It may not have been much but the foundation was there. You used compulsion to refine position. If you are just looking for ring style contact heeling, compulsion alone might do the trick. I taught plenty of dogs to lean on me using the Kohler method. Not balancing out compulsion with rewards works for a small percentage of dogs. Sorry, but a pat on the head is not a reward, just a signal the dog has succesfully avoided a correction.

You do not always seen prior training when you acquire a new dog. For many dogs performance is based on relationship. A couple of my friends have been working on a hand me down dog from a well known trainer whose greatest talent is teaching the heeling. They are convinced the dog knew nothing and claim they have taught the dog perfect heeling in two weeks. Funny, one of their friends has another hand me down dog from the same trainer who said the same thing. Anyone else see a pattern?

Considering I have never seen you work obedience at the field, I am guessing Buko had more foundation work than you think he did. Or maybe the rest of us idiots are just out there wasting our time? 

Yours truly,
Lisa


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## Katrina Kardiasmenos (Aug 5, 2007)

I actually always train my heel position (and attention) with food first, toys/tugs later. I use a wall, and I use food in my left hand to bait the dog, while also verbally praising (i.e., good heel, etc). This way, I'm teaching the correct position to begin with. 

At the same time, I teach my dog to catch food. Eventually, what I'm able to do is spit hot dog at the dog. This still keeps the dog's focus at my face (where I want it)...

Only then do I add in a toy/tug. And I switch which hand I use to reward, sometimes I use my right hand to get him to right turn to get the reward, sometimes I use my left hand to get the dog to come straight up. Also, by hiding the toy under different arms constantly, it makes the dog stay straight (b/c they never build the habit of forging by looking for the toy under my right arm)...

Finally, I start putting the toy behind my back (out of sight), and I reward using alternate hands...


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

> I actually always train my heel position (and attention) with food first, toys/tugs later. I use a wall, and I use food in my left hand to bait the dog, while also verbally praising (i.e., good heel, etc). This way, I'm teaching the correct position to begin with.


Do you find even with correct foundation a dog with spirit and drive always drifts toward forging and crowding in the heeling? 

My group of friends in San Diego are some of the best trainers of heeling I know. Yet, like me they always battle their dog's tendency to come up and forward in heel position. Many dogs thrive on eye contact and bottom line unless you have a dog who has a neck like a giraffe, they are going to be out of position in heeling if they are making eye contact. A good dog will push you in the heeling and the trick is to balance out his sense of empowerment (as he stares you down and pushes you to produce the reward) with his sense of obligation (I must do it this way because mom says).

The overall aesthetic I look for is one where the dog is animated and dynamic moving freely in a cadenced trot, looks compliant to the handler while maintaining proper position and gymnastics on turns.

I do not like a dog who looks like he is hovering in position waiting for a toy to fall. I do not like to see a dog moving in a stilted, off rythym gait, and I do not like a dog who shows too much obedience to the leg and has therefore lost some of the freedom in the position.

All of the above styles can and have received high scores but I am speaking of my personal proference.

Can you tell I spend a lot of time studying and thinking about heeling? Here is a link to some videos that include several of nice heeling dogs. Look for Lestat, L'Simba and Gustav.

http://www.ksmalinois.com/video/video-index.htm

Lisa

PS Do you have any videos of your dogs heeling?


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## Katrina Kardiasmenos (Aug 5, 2007)

Lisa,

I have just started to show my dogs (they're young so no vid yet), but I train the heel the way that Greg Williams (my boyfriend) trains it. His dog, Jue, has one of the nicest attention heels I've ever seen (even has the horse prance going). I just couple what I do with corrections (once I get past baiting the dog), and do a constant mix of left and right turns. 

However, here is a picture of me showing my little girl in a PDC (PSA): 










Another picture of Nisha at training:


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## marcy bukkit (Oct 4, 2007)

I had one dog that had a horrible forging problem. When I realized I was leaning slightly forward - and stopped doing so - he stopped forging.

Since then, I've been more aware of my shoulders while handling, and I really haven't had much in the way of forging with my other dogs.


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## Katrina Kardiasmenos (Aug 5, 2007)

marcy bukkit said:


> I had one dog that had a horrible forging problem. When I realized I was leaning slightly forward - and stopped doing so - he stopped forging.
> 
> Since then, I've been more aware of my shoulders while handling, and I really haven't had much in the way of forging with my other dogs.


that's an excellent point! If you are leaning forward, then your head will be slightly forward, throwing the straight lines for the dog all helter skelter...


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Katrina,

Cute little Mali girl. What area do you live in? I am thinking of doing PSA with Feist as I need another title since I have heard our closest rival in the most titles arena is ditching the Mondioring Championships to trial her dog in Belgian Ring and PSA. If she has four titles, I need at least four titles (we have three at the moment).

So in PSA, they call out the heeling pattern to you, correct?

Lisa


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## Katrina Kardiasmenos (Aug 5, 2007)

Lisa Maze said:


> Katrina,
> 
> Cute little Mali girl. What area do you live in? I am thinking of doing PSA with Feist as I need another title since I have heard our closest rival in the most titles arena is ditching the Mondioring Championships to trial her dog in Belgian Ring and PSA. If she has four titles, I need at least four titles (we have three at the moment).
> 
> ...


Thanks Lisa...she's a little firecracker...only 45 lbs at 3 years old!

We are in MD...but I know there are clubs down there that train for PSA...and are you talking about Donna?


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Yes, I am talking about Donna. Feist is ready to retire but we don't want to make it too easy for Donna and Jack. We had planned at one point to spend a month in Belgium to earn a Belgian Ring title but life got in the way. PSA seems a little easier to access.

Although, I am sad Jack will not be joining us in Italy.

Lisa


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Lisa: Thank you for posting the video with the touch stick. Ever since I saw in person the absoloutly incredible picture Joker makes in heel work I have been inspired to get as close to that as I can with my dog. I see this same picture with all the dogs you train. I would like to know how you would go about introducing the touch stick with an older dog. I think my 2 yr old GSD heels in good position, he moves in a collected manner, but I need to fine tune him and I think the touch stick might help. That or would you start with the 2 lines on the collar one running around the rear of the dog, and back up to my right hand?


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## Mari Steward (Mar 3, 2008)

Anne Vaini said:


> Dogs knows what to do. Has been taught motivationally, with several methods. Performs the behavior when not moving forward.
> 
> I would probably move on to adding compulsion into training in drive. Adding correction without taking away reward and without asking for the impossible.
> 
> ...


Anne,

This is an excellent post. My trainers have been telling me this over and over but I needed to read it to understand what they were telling me an ddemonstrating. Sometimes, I'm slow... ](*,)


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