# Self Discovery vs. Other odor imprinting Methods Discuss



## Brandon Durham (Jan 24, 2013)

I'd like to hear what your thoughts are on self discovery to odor for imprinting and/or your preferred method (choose your poison). Pros, cons and any other input is welcome. Ready... Go!


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## Kevin Cyr (Dec 28, 2012)

Brandon Durham said:


> I'd like to hear what your thoughts are on self discovery to odor for imprinting and/or your preferred method (choose your poison). Pros, cons and any other input is welcome. Ready... Go!


does the dog have the hunt drive?

how much time you got?

you could do both to some degree...


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Brandon Durham said:


> I'd like to hear what your thoughts are on self discovery to odor for imprinting and/or your preferred method (choose your poison). Pros, cons and any other input is welcome. Ready... Go!


Please explain by what you mean of "self discovery"? And in what context are you training in? 

Which method are you using now and how's it working for you?


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## Brandon Durham (Jan 24, 2013)

Kevin Cyr said:


> does the dog have the hunt drive?
> 
> how much time you got?
> 
> you could do both to some degree...


I realize everyone's situation is going to be different. I am just looking to see if you had a solid detector dog candidate and no time limit which methods you prefer and why?


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## Brandon Durham (Jan 24, 2013)

Sarah Platts said:


> Please explain by what you mean of "self discovery"? And in what context are you training in?
> 
> Which method are you using now and how's it working for you?



What I mean by self discovery is true self discovery. The marker, whatever you choose has already been loaded and now you put the dog in a controlled area with odor. When the dog finds the odor through self discovery the discovery is marked and rewarded. 

I am currently training an 11 week old Mal pup using this method and he is doing great. I am already starting to get focus with the duration I withhold the marker. His search behavior is exactly where I would have expected him at 15-16 weeks old or after 6 weeks of training with target odor. I am asking what other people would do with dogs of all ages, breeds, drives, temperament and character traits. I am hoping to learn something or help others learn something.


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## Brandon Durham (Jan 24, 2013)

This being said my background is DOD Military Working Dog training with a huge emphases on Deferred final response (focus training) and Inverted V (protocol) training for detection. I am looking for something else. Fight at source, enhanced hunt...etc I know its out there. Let hear about it.


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## dewon fields (Apr 5, 2009)

Brandon Durham said:


> This being said my background is DOD Military Working Dog training with a huge emphases on Deferred final response (focus training) and Inverted V (protocol) training for detection. I am looking for something else. Fight at source, enhanced hunt...etc I know its out there. Let hear about it.


Searching for a detection method is like searching for a box of cereal at the grocery store. My dog is food reward only, clicker at source. We also do a lot of descriminaiton/extinction training. My friends at Auburn University has a superb top notch detection program. I thought we had the best detection methiods until I met this k9 sceince geeks...lol http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/cdri/


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Dewon...if you are talking about vapor wake stuff, i for one would like to hear of someone who has gone thru the program from start to finish ...might be others too ... the subj has been brought up if i remember correctly but not from anyone who took a K9 thru the program

all i know of it is from press report type summaries

.... if that's the kinda stuff the OP was asking about ??


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Brandon Durham said:


> What I mean by self discovery is true self discovery. The marker, whatever you choose has already been loaded and now you put the dog in a controlled area with odor. When the dog finds the odor through self discovery the discovery is marked and rewarded.
> 
> I am currently training an 11 week old Mal pup using this method and he is doing great. I am already starting to get focus with the duration I withhold the marker. His search behavior is exactly where I would have expected him at 15-16 weeks old or after 6 weeks of training with target odor. I am asking what other people would do with dogs of all ages, breeds, drives, temperament and character traits. I am hoping to learn something or help others learn something.


O.k. now I'm really confused..... The definition of "self discovery" is the act or process of achieving self knowledge such as learning more about youself (strengths/weaknesses, etc) For dogs, the way I see this happening is learning how to overcome obstacles or problem solving when faced with a situation they have not been trained for. For example, I placed a find up off the ground onto the roof of my house. The dog got to the odor and started deerhopping up. Then he sat (trained indication) but you could see the gears turning. He left got up and went over to a 5ft tall raised platform _over there,_ climbed up the ladder, then went across a plank walk to _another platform_, to access the ladder on that platform that I had put up the day before to clean the gutters and hadn't moved so he was able to gain access to the roof. Now he could sit right next to the hide up on the roof. That to me was pure self-discovery. I think initally, he went to the second platform because it was closer to the side of the house and below the hide. Finding that new ladder leading up to the roof was just serendipity. It wasn't anything I had exposed him to before. He figured out how to take advantage of it.

In your case, my impression is that your self-discovery is more along the lines of learning a search sequence or pattern that they would perform on their own, without direction from you, to locate odor. In other words, I give you this command and you hunt around, covering all the available area, and see if you find a match to what you have been imprinted to find. More of a focus on hunt drive vs prey drive. He's already imprinted on the odor, he already has the alert now its just a matter of gaining experience with conflicting and masking odors.

I've trained 5 of my own dogs for cadaver detection and mantrailing as well as several belong to other people. I would rather work with a dog that has high hunt drive because the actual act of hunting is self-rewarding to them and they will do it even when they are tired, hot, cold, or footsore.


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## Meg O'Donovan (Aug 20, 2012)

Sarah Platts said:


> For example, I placed a find up off the ground onto the roof of my house. The dog got to the odor and started deerhopping up. Then he sat (trained indication) but you could see the gears turning. He left got up and went over to a 5ft tall raised platform _over there,_ climbed up the ladder, then went across a plank walk to _another platform_, to access the ladder on that platform that I had put up the day before to clean the gutters and hadn't moved so he was able to gain access to the roof. Now he could sit right next to the hide up on the roof. That to me was pure self-discovery. I think initally, he went to the second platform because it was closer to the side of the house and below the hide. Finding that new ladder leading up to the roof was just serendipity. It wasn't anything I had exposed him to before. He figured out how to take advantage of it..


Great story. Was that a GSP? Good dog!


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Meg O'Donovan said:


> Great story. Was that a GSP? Good dog!


Yep, my youngest and by far the smartest. Well, all of my GSPs are smart but he's the most creative problem solver I've seen. His gear box is constantly churning and I have to keep ramping it up because if you show him something once he expands upon it tremendously and takes you to places you never expected. Its very challenging because they were bred for this thing called "willful disobedience" and, boy, can they be. It's not the breed for everyone but if you both survive you have an awesome partner.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

The biggest thing I have found is that handlers have to remember to "let the dog go" . In order for the dog to engage in self discovery, the handler needs to step back, shut up, and let the dog work. This means slipping the desire to keep control of the dog which alot of people are uncomfortable with. Now I'm going to generalize but folks who run mals/gsds (or similar) seem to like always having a handle on the dog. Especially if they have bite training on them. As a result, the dog won't range effectively because they are constantly looking to you for guidance and direction because you are always there to tell them what to do. 

Also depending on what training the handler has received, this can compound the problem. If you are taught *this* is what you do, *this* is how you work *this* agency's dogs then its hard if in order to accomplish a new goal or training method, you can't do *this*. 

Brandon, the military is (in)famous for having a SOP, training guide, or instruction for everything. From brushing your teeth to cleaning your gun. I've read the MWD's handouts on trouble shooting the final response for DFR dogs and also the training guide for CST and DFR. It's a literal thought reducing process because they outline what they want you to do. If you see this, then you do that to correct. I guess what I'm asking is where are you trying to go? Is it that you know the goal of what you want but can't seem to understand how to get to?


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## Brandon Durham (Jan 24, 2013)

Sarah Platts said:


> The biggest thing I have found is that handlers have to remember to "let the dog go" . In order for the dog to engage in self discovery, the handler needs to step back, shut up, and let the dog work. This means slipping the desire to keep control of the dog which alot of people are uncomfortable with. Now I'm going to generalize but folks who run mals/gsds (or similar) seem to like always having a handle on the dog. Especially if they have bite training on them. As a result, the dog won't range effectively because they are constantly looking to you for guidance and direction because you are always there to tell them what to do.
> 
> Also depending on what training the handler has received, this can compound the problem. If you are taught *this* is what you do, *this* is how you work *this* agency's dogs then its hard if in order to accomplish a new goal or training method, you can't do *this*.
> 
> Brandon, the military is (in)famous for having a SOP, training guide, or instruction for everything. From brushing your teeth to cleaning your gun. I've read the MWD's handouts on trouble shooting the final response for DFR dogs and also the training guide for CST and DFR. It's a literal thought reducing process because they outline what they want you to do. If you see this, then you do that to correct. I guess what I'm asking is where are you trying to go? Is it that you know the goal of what you want but can't seem to understand how to get to?


Thanks for the reply, As a DoD handler and trainer I am very familiar with SOP's, troubleshooting guides and manuals. I am also very aware that it takes a certain type of dog to be able to be trained and successful in the military DFR method. They have to push many dogs in a short amount of time so I understand why it is set up the way it is. It also explains the quality of the dogs.

I have been trained in a few different methods of imprinting and detection training. I am the type of trainer that likes to sit back and weigh the pros and cons according to my application. In this thread I am just looking to find something that I might be able to add to my toolbox and hopefully help others in the process.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Brandon Durham said:


> I have been trained in a few different methods of imprinting and detection training. I am the type of trainer that likes to sit back and weigh the pros and cons according to my application. In this thread I am just looking to find something that I might be able to add to my toolbox and hopefully help others in the process.


Brandon, unlike the military or LE, the sar volunteers don’t have a dog school. Most of us learned to do things by trial and error. The unit trainer was simply someone appeared to know what they were doing or had trained a dog that discipline before. You end up with a lot of “well, that worked for my dog, I don’t know why it’s not working on yours. Must be a problem with your dog - get a new one”. Plus you travel to a K9 seminar offering something in your discipline. Sometimes you drove across 4-5 states to get to an event. And you paid for it all yourself. Fees, food, hotel (if they didn’t have a campground available). I know a lot of people who slept in their cars eating cup of noodles for a whole week. I’m not saying there aren’t good volunteers trainers out there but you sometimes have to hunt to find them. We do a lot of word of mouth recommendations and networking passing info around. 

The mantrailing area was probably the most hardcore for me. You located a mentor (back in the day this was someone who had started with BHs back about 20-40 years ago) and you trained with them. In my case this was 6 hour round trip drive every other Saturday. I was taught old school. You got a puppy run or two and then the guy walked out, dropping a scent article at the beginning. He would also drop one square of toilet paper at the first turn and that was it. And that only lasted for about 3 trails. After that you got nothing. You have lots of people walking all over your area? Deal with it. Mountain bikers on the same path as you? Deal with it. Runner walked across the soccer fields and now there is a game in progress? Deal with it. Don’t know what direction your guy walked away to? Deal with it. Guy didn’t leave you a scent article? Deal with it. You went out by yourself and you didn’t come back without the victim. I remember one time Jack and I was having lots of trouble and we missed lunch. This mentor made it point to keep radioing me about missing lunch. The victim didn’t. He came in and got food and then went back out. I was out there for hours until we got it sorted out. I learned a lot that day and we never missed lunch again.

Another mentor never gave me any answers. When I had a question his response was to “try it and see what happens. Let me know how it works out”. God Bless Bill Tolhurst because he taught me to never accept what someone said dogs could nor couldn’t do. You tried it. Discover your own boundaries and limitations. Don’t accept someone else’s

When I first started "back-chaining" was the buzz word of the day. With Back-chaining you started with the finish (alert) and then taught the search sequences in the reverse and then "chained' them together. The idea was as the dog would be working problems, moving from unfamiliar to familiar, and this was suppose to make them stronger at the end in the process. Since ‘everyone’ did it I didn't think any of the problems I was having was related to the method used. (I still use back-chaining but only rarely)

Then I got up with a gal in Europe who watched my dog work. She was pretty plain about pointing out our problems and asked how I had trained this dog. When I told her she said, in not so many words, that it was the stupidest thing she had ever heard. By teaching segments and then trying to tie it all together, when the dog got to a section they didn't like - they would just skip that part or modify it - exactly what was happening to me. Her suggestion was to teach the entire process from start to finish as one process. That way the dog wouldn't skip steps because this was the only way they knew. No avoiding parts and complete from start to finish. She took my “broken” dog and we restarted him. Within 2 weeks the results were amazing. But it was not to last as when I came back, my trainers refused to let me keep up with this new method so the dog slipped right back into the old problems where I had to learn to work around them and still have a successful dog.

At this time, many cadaver dogs were trained on bucket line-ups. First you imprinted the dog to the odor by playing with a scented tennis ball or rolled towel. Then we set up a line of cans, and you walked down the line doing the standard hand presentation. “check”, “check”, etc. At the target can, you would cue the alert. Then you moved the cans around to change the ‘hot’ can position in the sequence and ran again. This method had its own set up problems due to fringing on the downwind can in the event the wind direction changed on you. (most of us have to train outside) and you would get the alert. Which is how I trained my first cadaver dog. Back-chaining and buckets.

Shortly after I got back from Europe, I had to scrub out my current cadaver dog due to emerging dog aggression (she was a pit mix) on my other dogs. I rolled her to a single dog pet home and picked up a new dog which I decided to give the method that I was shown in Europe a try. 

When I told my trainers how I was planning on training my new cadaver dog there was no end of the snide comments, bad mouthing, and lack of support. They refused to support me and told me I was just wasting my time and to not even bother bringing that dog to training. Since this was my idea, I was on my own and when the dog failed out (almost a guaranteed certainty due to this hocus-pocus dog training idea of mine) I would be losing a year while I had to start the dog all over from scratch. 

What I did was place out a jar about 8ft away. There was no imprint of odor prior to starting this. I told the dog the search word and then we went together up to the item where as soon as the dog dropped their head to sniff, I cued the indication. We did this for a bit gradually moving the item out to 10-15ft but still sitting plainly in the open. The dog never went by themselves but with the handler – there was no sending. Once the dog would go out and immediately indicate then you started to send the dog out. Once they would go right to it and alert then you started to hide it. It actually worked pretty well and within 4 weeks we were doing acre-sized search problems with accurate results. No walking the odor. No dropping behaviors. Life was good. The dog passed the unit certification after 4-5 months of training but even that was made rough because they were trying to fail us and only once she passed was I begrudging told that “maybe there was something to this idea of mine.” However, the unit trainer made it pretty plain they would not encourage this with other dogs or handlers.

Somewhere in here, bucket training fell out of favor and clicker training was introduced as the latest, greatest. I trained my youngest pup using both a clicker and the method I was shown in Europe. Because Sam was 8 wks old when I started him, I had him take a paw swipe at the jar that I marked with the clicker and food reward. We started in my kitchen and I would slide the jar around on the floor. After he had matured up a bit, I added in the sit alert with the paw swipe. So Sam has both a passive and active alert system. 

Sam was my first clicker-trained dog and I liked the way I could quickly mark behaviors. With puppies it really helped with the initial learning and marking behaviors which I like it a lot. For older dogs, I use it but not to the level I do with puppies. I did have one dog that had been trained to the negative using a clicker which I didn’t find out for several weeks. I got this dog as a 2-yo and when you clicked she would stop whatever she was doing or move away from where ever she was standing. Since I was using the clicker to mark the cadaver, this was a problem as using the clicker sound actually drove her away from the material and created an aversion to it. I eventually ended up scrubbing her from both mantrailing and cadaver work and re-homed her to a pet home. 

So, Long Post. I don't know if this answers any of your questions or not. We just invent stuff and learn as we go.


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## Jan Wensink (Sep 17, 2010)

We have our own specific system of odor imprinting. It is used for most substances such as drugs, tobacco, currency etc. Stainless steel tubes of 4/5 inches long are placed in a jar with the substance you want to teach to the dog. This way the tubes are scented.
We keep a tube in front of the dog's nose so he can pick up the scent. We throw it away a few times and the dog retrieves it. Than we hide a tube in a way that it can be found easily by the dog. Tubes are hidden more and more difficult. The last step is that real substances are hidden for the dogs. The handler rewards the dog with a tube he had in his pocket, sleeve etc. and rewards from the source. The transition from tube to real substances is rarely a problem.
The system has a few advantages and disadvantages.
When a handler works alone he can hide something for the dog without being afraid of losing the real substances.
When a handler was a bit sloppy with his reward when real substances were hidden and the dog looked to him instead of to the source it can be easily repaired. Just hide tubes for a few days and the dog can be rewarded from source that way. 
After being used the tubes are cleaned in the dishwater, cleaned in boiling water and scented again.
Disadvantages: Only metal retrievers are suitable for our system. Dogs that play with the tubes in a hectic way can damage their teeth over the years.
I personally prefer imprinting to self-discovery. When items are placed in a room they dont have the scent that other items have that have been in that room for a long time. Dogs will have a lot of interest in items that are new in that room and need little encouragement to indicate. I want to make it black and white for him what he has to search for and what not.


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## Brandon Durham (Jan 24, 2013)

Sarah Platts said:


> Brandon, unlike the military or LE, the sar volunteers don’t have a dog school. Most of us learned to do things by trial and error. The unit trainer was simply someone appeared to know what they were doing or had trained a dog that discipline before. You end up with a lot of “well, that worked for my dog, I don’t know why it’s not working on yours. Must be a problem with your dog - get a new one”. Plus you travel to a K9 seminar offering something in your discipline. Sometimes you drove across 4-5 states to get to an event. And you paid for it all yourself. Fees, food, hotel (if they didn’t have a campground available). I know a lot of people who slept in their cars eating cup of noodles for a whole week. I’m not saying there aren’t good volunteers trainers out there but you sometimes have to hunt to find them. We do a lot of word of mouth recommendations and networking passing info around.
> 
> The mantrailing area was probably the most hardcore for me. You located a mentor (back in the day this was someone who had started with BHs back about 20-40 years ago) and you trained with them. In my case this was 6 hour round trip drive every other Saturday. I was taught old school. You got a puppy run or two and then the guy walked out, dropping a scent article at the beginning. He would also drop one square of toilet paper at the first turn and that was it. And that only lasted for about 3 trails. After that you got nothing. You have lots of people walking all over your area? Deal with it. Mountain bikers on the same path as you? Deal with it. Runner walked across the soccer fields and now there is a game in progress? Deal with it. Don’t know what direction your guy walked away to? Deal with it. Guy didn’t leave you a scent article? Deal with it. You went out by yourself and you didn’t come back without the victim. I remember one time Jack and I was having lots of trouble and we missed lunch. This mentor made it point to keep radioing me about missing lunch. The victim didn’t. He came in and got food and then went back out. I was out there for hours until we got it sorted out. I learned a lot that day and we never missed lunch again.
> 
> ...


This is exactly what I was hoping to get from this thread. A little how-to/ how not to and personal preference. Thank you for the input. I work with a few SAR handlers. I can see true passion for what we do as dog handlers with people that volunteer everything for the chance to work with a dog and help save lives. Working with the SAR guys early in my Military Working Dog Career made me truly appreciate my training as well as understand that there is so much more in the working dog world than just MWD's. Any chance I get to go to seminars, classes or other agencies training days helps me to remember there is much more out there than just the military when it comes to dogs and training.


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## Melody Greba (Oct 4, 2007)

Brandon
I started a couple of pups, using self-discovery. Basically: set up the scenario; discovery; click/reward/ignore; rediscovery-repeat. She was doing little searches after 3 days. Passive indication was placed in very quickly with verbal help. She was 10.5 wks and the results at age 2 yrs was proofed and solid. 

I tried to do the same with a second pup, but I could not progress like I did with the first one. It were very interesting. The second dog wasn't that cutting edge mentally sharp dog like the first. He would do just as well with combining the odor with the toy.

Circumstances the same, different breeds and temperament types. The 2nd dog
was sold as a drug dog at age 10 mos and was certified shortly after acquisition, then good finds within 2 mos of working. 

Melody Greba
http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBul...ing-methods-discuss-27289/www.vomreichtal.com


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## Frank Schembre (Jan 1, 2013)

I would like to re-address this post and see if we can get another discussion started on same. Would also like to address the issue of "allowing canines to "leave odor" during imprinting during training.
Thanks.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Frank Schembre said:


> I would like to re-address this post and see if we can get another discussion started on same. Would also like to address the issue of "allowing canines to "leave odor" during imprinting during training.
> Thanks.


When I do imprinting the hides are right there in plain sight, so to speak. They are not hidden as such nor are they in the same position for extended periods of time. I put the stuff out, immediately run the dog, move the stuff to a new location, re-run the dog again. By immediately working the dog, I have a very small scent pool and it keeps the dog closer to source for the reward. If you allow a large scent pool then the dog hits the edges and has to figure out where the material is. During imprinting, I don’t want the dog to have to figure out where anything is at. Imprinting is to teach the odor you want the dog to find and what to do once they find it. It’s an odor – no odor situation. Either it’s there or it’s not. I control how large an area, how much material, how long it stays in a position, how the dog is introduced to it, etc. In other words, I take control of as many variables as I can to prevent the dog from doing anything but what I want it to do or know.

If you don’t allow large scent pools then the dog will not “leave” the odor to scout out the fringe scent to be sure they are picking the best location for the alert. Dogs are alerting on odor not the material. The material is the source but its all about the odor. Dogs are alerting to the greatest concentration of the odor which may or may not be at the actual physical item. I can’t speak for narcotics or explosives but for cadaver work the scent may collect at a point away from the actual material depending on location, temperature, and other factors. During imprinting, the handler’s job is to reduce the potential of teaching a dog to walk the odor. 

Without knowing more about a particular event, it’s hard to determine if the dog is walking the odor because they have not been shown exactly what it is they are supposed to be doing, or if they are having other problems. 

Factors that can encourage a dog to walk the odor include but are not limited to:

-the handler was sloppy with marking or rewarding the alerts

-increasing the size of the search area to fast causing a distraction issue for the dog

-the amount of time a source sits in a location causing scent pool issues

-dog is bored with unchallenging problems and is trying to extend the working time of the problem

-dog has a natural aversion to the odor

-dog doesn’t have the desire for this type of work

-working multiple hide situations in a confined space causing overlapping scent pools or conflicting odors

-working strong odors placed to closely to weaker ones

Are you dealing with a particular situation? Or just what you are seeing in general? Once you are past the imprinting phase and moving to actual search problems then 'walking' odor has new meanings.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Brandon Durham said:


> What I mean by self discovery is true self discovery. The marker, whatever you choose has already been loaded and now you put the dog in a controlled area with odor. When the dog finds the odor through self discovery the discovery is marked and rewarded.
> 
> I am currently training an 11 week old Mal pup using this method and he is doing great. I am already starting to get focus with the duration I withhold the marker. His search behavior is exactly where I would have expected him at 15-16 weeks old or after 6 weeks of training with target odor. I am asking what other people would do with dogs of all ages, breeds, drives, temperament and character traits. I am hoping to learn something or help others learn something.


we start with puppies asap... using the tube or busboy tub (box) method. We dont do anything but self discovery (as you define it). Tailor the training to each individual dog and rock on!


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## Ang Cangiano (Mar 2, 2007)

Starting some imprinting with a baby pup:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxI1WEDFf_c&list=UUtj9RoglTUGDiTYqZx53pdA

Ang


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

The setup we start most dogs on.


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## Frank Schembre (Jan 1, 2013)

Sarah Platts said:


> When I do imprinting the hides are right there in plain sight, so to speak. They are not hidden as such nor are they in the same position for extended periods of time. I put the stuff out, immediately run the dog, move the stuff to a new location, re-run the dog again. By immediately working the dog, I have a very small scent pool and it keeps the dog closer to source for the reward. If you allow a large scent pool then the dog hits the edges and has to figure out where the material is. During imprinting, I don’t want the dog to have to figure out where anything is at. Imprinting is to teach the odor you want the dog to find and what to do once they find it. It’s an odor – no odor situation. Either it’s there or it’s not. I control how large an area, how much material, how long it stays in a position, how the dog is introduced to it, etc. In other words, I take control of as many variables as I can to prevent the dog from doing anything but what I want it to do or know.
> 
> If you don’t allow large scent pools then the dog will not “leave” the odor to scout out the fringe scent to be sure they are picking the best location for the alert. Dogs are alerting on odor not the material. The material is the source but its all about the odor. Dogs are alerting to the greatest concentration of the odor which may or may not be at the actual physical item. I can’t speak for narcotics or explosives but for cadaver work the scent may collect at a point away from the actual material depending on location, temperature, and other factors. During imprinting, the handler’s job is to reduce the potential of teaching a dog to walk the odor.
> 
> ...


Brian no particular situation just general talk. I believe if you are doing the busboy tub or even an odor box, that's not what the original posting was referring to as self discovery. (i could be wrong but i believe that's more along the lines of a 5 hole variable)

I understand that walking odor in other than imprinting problems is different. What I was referring to is if you are imprinting, utilizing a self discovery method, allowing dogs to search a particular room or area on their own, hunting for the odor, and they leave by not showing a strong change, and or not locking up, nor not giving a final response.

I like your view on odor pooling, which I see can happen especially if source is sitting on top of tubs. In utilizing your method, how do you know that the dog is not being cued visually, since they can see source? Are there blank visual items on the tubs without source? Also, you spoke of extended periods of time, how long are your training sessions when imprinting? I'm sure depends on dog and dog behavior, but in general?

I utilize a lot of open areas teaching the dogs to not chase odor, but to work from weakest to strongest concentration. (I'm not saying I am totally a self discovery method trainer, I believe the dog, breed, drive, pace all dictate) I'm just saying that open areas help and bracketing activity to strongest concentration when utilizing self discovery during imprinting is not a bad thing.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

I gotcha ... 

we use the same tub for source never changing it for reason of contamination. The hide is in a PVC pipe inside the tub. There is no visual cue for the dog. The tubs let the association of the reward/odor happen quickly (Im sure you have done this type of training as well). 

your right the time spent is dependent on each dog. We typically rotate them until we see signs of checking out or the dog looks ready to move on. 

we also use a setup with PVC tubes that works too. 

we change up scenarios sometimes hard surface, gravel, muddy ground, wooded area etc. This also addresses the scent cone issue your referring to I think.


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## Jessica Hodges (May 16, 2014)

Brandon Durham said:


> What I mean by self discovery is true self discovery. The marker, whatever you choose has already been loaded and now you put the dog in a controlled area with odor. When the dog finds the odor through self discovery the discovery is marked and rewarded.
> 
> I am currently training an 11 week old Mal pup using this method and he is doing great. I am already starting to get focus with the duration I withhold the marker. His search behavior is exactly where I would have expected him at 15-16 weeks old or after 6 weeks of training with target odor. I am asking what other people would do with dogs of all ages, breeds, drives, temperament and character traits. I am hoping to learn something or help others learn something.


Thanks for starting this thread. It's been very interesting and informative.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Excellent thread!


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

one of the things that got me hooked on dog training was the first time I saw a young dog come out of a crate and without any training work his way across 100 yds of strange open field area to locate a hidden individual using only his senses. I never tire of seeing dogs do that. I thought to myself "if he will do that on his own what can he do with some direction?" I have been trying to figure out how to provide that direction for a while LOL


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Frank,

When you are first introducing a dog to an odor you want them to locate and indicate on, how are you doing that?


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## Nick Hrycaj (Mar 30, 2014)

Frank you said, "I utilize a lot of open areas teaching the dogs to not chase odor, but to work from weakest to strongest concentration. (I'm not saying I am totally a self discovery method trainer, I believe the dog, breed, drive, pace all dictate) I'm just saying that open areas help and bracketing activity to strongest concentration when utilizing self discovery during imprinting is not a bad thing."

How is going to source different in an open space and do you still use one hide or many with increasing quantity but only reward at the stongest?


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## Frank Schembre (Jan 1, 2013)

Depends on the dog. Does the dog have a good hunt drive? Depends on if they already know a final response. Does the dog know its pace? (some people ask how fast can a dog search? I watch field sporting breeds, they are crazy fast! But they have learned their pace. In detection work, with a high drive dog, its our job to ensure the dog learns its pace. this issue is also breed / drive driven.) Also, how far is the dog in training? (In some cases it may even depend on the odor) like everything else I consider all the variables and usually never say "this is how you do it" or "that doesn't work". That being said, I prefer to give the dog as much independence as possible, if I need to, I pair the odor with another known odor. I reward the change of behavior immediately from source or I assist to the response position after dog first shows signs of locking up on odor. I like to do this in the search environment, but if their are peripheral issues, I like Brian's 5 hole method of criteria.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Frank Schembre said:


> Depends on the dog. Does the dog have a good hunt drive? Depends on if they already know a final response. Does the dog know its pace? (some people ask how fast can a dog search? I watch field sporting breeds, they are crazy fast! But they have learned their pace. In detection work, with a high drive dog, its our job to ensure the dog learns its pace. this issue is also breed / drive driven.) Also, how far is the dog in training? (In some cases it may even depend on the odor) like everything else I consider all the variables and usually never say "this is how you do it" or "that doesn't work". That being said, I prefer to give the dog as much independence as possible, if I need to, I pair the odor with another known odor. I reward the change of behavior immediately from source or I assist to the response position after dog first shows signs of locking up on odor. I like to do this in the search environment, but if their are peripheral issues, I like Brian's 5 hole method of criteria.


In my experience I really like to see a more methodical hunter over a dog that is highly driven and moving very quickly like some of the higher drive dogs do. I too give the dog freedom once the foundation has been laid and I am certain the dog can perform. Then begin to increase the difficulty. I have had better luck when I go straight into high hides and challenging enviro right off the boxes rather than allowing the dog to stay to the ground a lot (learned that the hard way). The 5 hole tub setup works good to slow down those really drivey dogs too ...there is a lady here that does HR and she trains the way you are describing.


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## Frank Schembre (Jan 1, 2013)

Nick, Open area is different because you know wind direction. You can ensure that after the canine shows a change of behavior they stay within the scent cone working the odor from weakest to strongest concentration. 
Ad if I understood the 2nd part of your question: In an open area I would NEVER use more than one hide. And a would NEVER have a hide of ANY quantity that I did not reward.


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## Frank Schembre (Jan 1, 2013)

Brian Anderson said:


> In my experience I really like to see a more methodical hunter over a dog that is highly driven and moving very quickly like some of the higher drive dogs do. I too give the dog freedom once the foundation has been laid and I am certain the dog can perform. Then begin to increase the difficulty. I have had better luck when I go straight into high hides and challenging enviro right off the boxes rather than allowing the dog to stay to the ground a lot (learned that the hard way). The 5 hole tub setup works good to slow down those really drivey dogs too ...there is a lady here that does HR and she trains the way you are describing.


Yep, I agree Brian. Exactly what I love to see also. 
I think the other is "more challenging" though. And if you can train that higher drive, faster paced dog to harness its energy to a point where it performs at the methodical hunters pace and behavior you have a greater sense of accomplishment. Something very very hard to do.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Frank Schembre said:


> Yep, I agree Brian. Exactly what I love to see also.
> I think the other is "more challenging" though. And if you can train that higher drive, faster paced dog to harness its energy to a point where it performs at the methodical hunters pace and behavior you have a greater sense of accomplishment. Something very very hard to do.


Frank I cannot say I have accomplished that yet. Its a goal of mine and has been for some time. I cant really take much credit at all honestly because some of the dogs are just talented genetically and all Im doing is giving them a venue to strut their stuff..


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## Frank Schembre (Jan 1, 2013)

Brian Anderson said:


> Frank I cannot say I have accomplished that yet. Its a goal of mine and has been for some time. I cant really take much credit at all honestly because some of the dogs are just talented genetically and all Im doing is giving them a venue to strut their stuff..


I hear ya! Most of the really good dogs I've seen are not the result of the trainers they are good despite the trainer. Hahaha. Poor dog, they really need a back brace!!


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Frank Schembre said:


> I hear ya! Most of the really good dogs I've seen are not the result of the trainers they are good despite the trainer. Hahaha. Poor dog, they really need a back brace!!


ever have a dog look at you like "get your shit together"? LOL 
then you have a good idea you have one that will outwork you.


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## Nick Hrycaj (Mar 30, 2014)

The second part of my question came from misunderstanding what you meant by odor strength, we are on the same page about the scent cone lessening odor away f from source


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## Frank Schembre (Jan 1, 2013)

Brian Anderson said:


> ever have a dog look at you like "get your shit together"? LOL
> then you have a good idea you have one that will outwork you.


Who meeeeee?? Hahaa I've always said if you haven't broke a dog, you ain't training!! Luckily, like you said most will overcome your incompetences.... LOL


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## Frank Schembre (Jan 1, 2013)

Nick Hrycaj said:


> The second part of my question came from misunderstanding what you meant by odor strength, we are on the same page about the scent cone lessening odor away f from source


Gotcha.

Also along the same lines, I've seen people run open area where the dog runs haywire. I disagree with this method. (Still wont say something doesn't work) just not my style. I believe open area is set up for complete success. Although we don't have those famous odor goggles, we do know wind direction and we do know odor theory. I believe it is our job to look for the dogs change of behavior and after that point, our job to keep the dog in the "most probable" scent cone, not allowing it to leave the scent cone, not allowing it to work from strongest to weakest, but rather weakest to strongest concentration of odor.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Frank Schembre said:


> I believe it is our job to look for the dogs change of behavior and after that point, our job to keep the dog in the "most probable" scent cone, not allowing it to leave the scent cone, not allowing it to work from strongest to weakest, but rather weakest to strongest concentration of odor.


I hate to belabor a point but how do you start a dog to 1) teach it the odor you want him to find and/or 2) alert to an odor it doesn't know it's suppose to find? In one post you mentioned that you put it out with an odor that the dog already knows. But how is the dog learning that first odor? How are you doing your initial foundation work?
And if you are doing this in a wide open area how are you keeping the dog in the "most probable" scent cone?


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## Frank Schembre (Jan 1, 2013)

Sarah Platts said:


> I hate to belabor a point but how do you start a dog to 1) teach it the odor you want him to find and/or 2) alert to an odor it doesn't know it's suppose to find? In one post you mentioned that you put it out with an odor that the dog already knows. But how is the dog learning that first odor? How are you doing your initial foundation work?
> And if you are doing this in a wide open area how are you keeping the dog in the "most probable" scent cone?


The odor the dog knows could be the dogs reward, a birds eye view would be teaching the dog or allowing the dog to hunt productive areas, this could be done in protocol boxes / 5 hole variable, tubs, scent boxes, etc... Or rooms with searchable items, vehicles, anywhere-anything searcheable. Then once the dog knows it is searching for reward you can pair the reward / a piece of the reward with the odor that you are wanting to imprint. Or some people pay / deliver reward to dog at source at the moment when you a) "pay on sniff"observe the canine sniffing the area where your odor is / most probable place where odor should be. And / or b) "pay on change" the instant you see the canine's change of behavior.

To keep the dog in a most probable scent cone, you do not allow dog to leave via leash. 

Most probable scent cone is estimated to be from source with the direction of the wind. 1) at source= total concentration 2) leaving source a very very narrow scent cone 3) the farther you get from source the wider the odor plume 4) even farther a wider odor plume. When you initiate your open area, depending on type of open area you are running, you would start search at far opposite end / area in order to have your dog come in contact with odor and work this odor to source. When canine shows change of behavior and moves toward odor direction you go with canine allowing dog to work the odor but not allowing dog to walk out of "probable scent cone". In another words I'm going to allow my dog to bracket more at 20 and 15 yards than I will at 5 yards. A 5 yards there should be very little bracketing but rather digging in and going direct to source.

A lot depends on odor placement, temp, humidity, wind speed, etc...

Hope I made clear points, if not feel free to PM me.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

So if I'm reading this right, there is very little "self discovery" during your imprinting stage. You are using a visual reference point - tubs, tubes, buckets, or whatever initially to tell the dog where to sniff and then may be also pairing the new odor with an older one or attaching it to a known object's odor. To me this seems that what you are building is more of an association between odors. Such as using scented towels or tennis balls or pairing up with food which is later phased out to become the reward. The dog isn't searching for the reward per say but is using that as a means to the end. All the dog is trying to determine what protocol that you (the handler) have pre-determined is necessary to get from Point A to Point B. So if figuring out your protocol is what you feel is self-discovery then I could see that.

If you are running a dog on-lead, again, you are dictating the form or direction of the dog's movements so is this also really self-discovery? Especially if you are directing the dog and creating a foregone conclusion?

I guess it all goes back to what is your definition of "self discovery". Personally, that's not a term I would pair with odor imprinting but would apply it more with actual search dynamics.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

I really like Dick Staal as a trainer and his methods. He is a Dutch long time trainer of PSD's. I have adopted a number of things I learned from his book and talking with him. I always suggest taking a look at his book .. there are lots of methods out there and all of them have some good points and bad. I have used his method from puppy to adult and found it to be very practical...http://www.dickstaal.com/

_im not associated with nor do I have any interest with Dick other than liking his approach for teaching police dogs._


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## Frank Schembre (Jan 1, 2013)

Sarah Platts said:


> So if I'm reading this right, there is very little "self discovery" during your imprinting stage. You are using a visual reference point - tubs, tubes, buckets, or whatever initially to tell the dog where to sniff and then may be also pairing the new odor with an older one or attaching it to a known object's odor. To me this seems that what you are building is more of an association between odors. Such as using scented towels or tennis balls or pairing up with food which is later phased out to become the reward. The dog isn't searching for the reward per say but is using that as a means to the end. All the dog is trying to determine what protocol that you (the handler) have pre-determined is necessary to get from Point A to Point B. So if figuring out your protocol is what you feel is self-discovery then I could see that.
> 
> If you are running a dog on-lead, again, you are dictating the form or direction of the dog's movements so is this also really self-discovery? Especially if you are directing the dog and creating a foregone conclusion?
> 
> I guess it all goes back to what is your definition of "self discovery". Personally, that's not a term I would pair with odor imprinting but would apply it more with actual search dynamics.


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