# Hold vs Grab



## Raegan Walter (Nov 8, 2012)

In many of the resources I've seen for training the retrieve, the dog it taught to hold an object separate from the picking up and delivery components. Usually it's instructed to always put it in the dog's mouth! Never let him reach for it!

Less commonly I've seen it done where the dog takes an object as presented. This is how I taught my dog. I want taking an object to be an offered behavior. I find it convenient to be able to hand my dog things and say here hold this and not need to hands free in order to place it in his mouth.

But the "always put it in his mouth never let him grab it" camp seems to be the more prevalent one. What is the reasoning behind this? Do you always use one or the other (or a third option), and what influences which option you use?


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## Eric Read (Aug 14, 2006)

I may have to put it there the first couple times so they get the idea quickly, but it changes to them taking it rather quickly. So put me in the "they have to take it" camp. I don't know why others would discourage that.

Once they "take it" they have to hold it, and that's calm and secure no matter how it gets in their mouth.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I haven't had to put a dumbell in a dog's mouth in years. That's even with my non retrieving GSD before he was taught with markers.
I also want the dog to take it's mouth off the dumbell by moving it's head back away from the dumbell and not me pulling the dumbell away from the dogs mouth when it opens.


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

We teach to take it,with a "take it" command


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## Elaine Matthys (May 18, 2008)

I'm not a member of the "always put it in his mouth never let him grab it" camp and don't know anyone that is. Maybe it's a local thing for you? The only time I put something in my dog's mouth is the very first couple of retrieving lessons until they get the hang of taking it.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

I have heard what you are talking about. My read on that is that some people feel that if you put it in the dog's mouth, the dog learns it is not a choice.

I am not sure dog's generalize in that way. 

I certainly have heard the "put it in the dog's mouth" if the dog drops the object (AFTER the learning phase). So that the dog realizes, even if I don't particularly want it, it is going in there LOL. I am kind of paraphrasing here (and perhaps bastardizing too). This is from a pretty well known trainer, who may or may not have a video on the subject.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

It creates stress, and therefore tension. The dog is then more prone to clamp down and hold firm. Ivan claims it's one of the few times he purposely creates stress in a dog. He also begins the session with the dog totaly calm, not breathing heavy and some other than where he normally trains the dog.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Put it in the mouth was a very common way to teach the retrieve. Still is in may places because it works. One of the first competition retrieves I ever taught was with a Kerry Blue terrier. I took his ear in between the choke collar and my thumbnail and pinched the ear till the dog either yelled or tried to bite me. He was a terrier! No yell but plenty of bite. :-o 
He became a very nice retriever but today I would be less inclined to use that method without a very good reason. I haven't had to in years. Marker training and back chaining! :wink:


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

Classic Koehler. ;-)


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I've trained mine to hold and actually bite down with marker training. She has the pick up but I want to solidify the carry & present and maybe just the hold in motion and until I say let go. I've never done a force retrieve. I also don't get the need for adding "stress." 

T


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I also don't get the need for adding "stress."
> 
> T


no one said that it was NEEDED, did they?

there are lots of dog training areas where stress is purposely added into training by many people.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I also don't get the need for adding "stress."
> 
> T


no one said that it was NEEDED, did they? did you "get" the reason given as to why some people do it?

there are lots of dog training areas where stress is purposely added into training by many people.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Bob Scott said:


> Put it in the mouth was a very common way to teach the retrieve. Still is in may places because it works. One of the first competition retrieves I ever taught was with a Kerry Blue terrier. I took his ear in between the choke collar and my thumbnail and pinched the ear till the dog either yelled or tried to bite me. He was a terrier! No yell but plenty of bite. :-o
> He became a very nice retriever but today I would be less inclined to use that method without a very good reason. I haven't had to in years. Marker training and back chaining! :wink:


"Putting the item in the mouth" can still be different than a force fetch (you described). I don't want to give people the impression that methods that may include putting the item in the dog's mouth always equate to a force fetch.


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

I don't quite get the concept of added stress at the point of hold. We add conflict/stress/discomfort for NOT holding but not at the point of chewing. When a dog is chewing they do not have a secure hold. The dowel (or later the LC breakaway dumb bell) is yanked out of their mouth by the handler or second handler. Now that the dowel is out of their mouth it is held in front of them and they must re-grip and re-grip securely to turn off the stress. Thus you set up a situation where the dog moves from discomfort (for being incorrect and not having a secure hold) to comfort by getting a firm and correct grip on the dowel. 

If you add stress to the dog at the time of chewing, then generally you compound the problem.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> "Putting the item in the mouth" can still be different than a force fetch (you described). I don't want to give people the impression that methods that may include putting the item in the dog's mouth always equate to a force fetch.



I agree that it doesn't need to mean it's a forced retrieve. As one well know trainer always says;
"The rabbit does not not jump into the dog's mouth". 
In other word the dog should move towards the item and not the item towards the dog. 
Make sense?


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Bob Scott said:


> I agree that it doesn't need to mean it's a forced retrieve. As one well know trainer always says;
> "The rabbit does not not jump into the dog's mouth".
> In other word the dog should move towards the item and not the item towards the dog.
> Make sense?


Was that quote not originally intended for talking about building prey and rewarding with prey? I am not sure it was intended for teaching the hold? But I could be wrong, because I don't even know who said it first LOL.

You are preaching to the converted here. I have trained a shaped (grab) retrieve both from the ground or from a sit, with more than one dog. I have zero issues with training it that way.

My point was just that there are trainers out there, that teach to put the item in the dog's mouth, and the method is still considered "positive", and uses "markers" and so on.

Have you seen Michael Ellis' retrieve video for example?

And there are many trainers out there, teaching a force fetch, where the dog has to "grab" the object themselves to turn off the stim/pinch/hitch.

I just didn't want new people to be confused and think that a method that included a grab was necessarily positive and a method that included putting it in the dogs mouth was necessarily "not" positive.

Make sense?


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Raegan Walter said:


> In many of the resources I've seen for training the retrieve, the dog it taught to hold an object separate from the picking up and delivery components. Usually it's instructed to always put it in the dog's mouth! Never let him reach for it!
> 
> Less commonly I've seen it done where the dog takes an object as presented. This is how I taught my dog. I want taking an object to be an offered behavior. I find it convenient to be able to hand my dog things and say here hold this and not need to hands free in order to place it in his mouth.
> 
> But the "always put it in his mouth never let him grab it" camp seems to be the more prevalent one. What is the reasoning behind this? Do you always use one or the other (or a third option), and what influences which option you use?


The advantage to teaching the dog to not reach for it is for style points. It's generally done while being back chained. Teaching the front first with the muzzled pointed straight up at the handler. Now if the dog reaches for the dumb bell they will do the opposite and pull away slightly....losing the head position of the muzzle pointed straight up. But if you teach the front first, where they have to keep their muzzle straight up....then teach do not move your head. You can create some muscle memory in the front. But most people doing it have no idea what they are shooting for....they just heard so and so say to do it.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Was that quote not originally intended for talking about building prey and rewarding with prey? I am not sure it was intended for teaching the hold? But I could be wrong, because I don't even know who said it first LOL.
> 
> You are preaching to the converted here. I have trained a shaped (grab) retrieve both from the ground or from a sit, with more than one dog. I have zero issues with training it that way.
> 
> ...


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

James Downey said:


> Teaching the front first with the muzzled pointed straight up at the handler. Now if the dog reaches for the dumb bell they will do the opposite and pull away slightly....losing the head position of the muzzle pointed straight up.


Are you saying that it's desirable, even preferred, for the head not to move during the release?


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