# SAR dogs and ob



## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

I thought I would seperate this from the pop up thread because it is a good topic and one I hear discussed in my venue as well.

I think A LOT about this topic and am in the process of forming some strong opinions about it. They are based on my own dogs, mentoring other dogs at my work, and working as an instructor. I am kind of obsessed with training formal obedience compared to your average SAR geek and would never expect SAR poeple to be as excieted about ob as I am LOL.

I think you absolutely can have great obedience with a SAR dog, compete in dog sports and still have an independent worker. IF you have the right dog, handler and training methods. I hate the fact that people say...."oh it is a SAR dog so I can't work on obedience it needs to be free".

Our dogs have to pass a formal obedience exam to be certified. It doesn't differ much from some competitive ob exams, or some sch ob. The difference is that it is pass/fail and there are no points for looking good.

I would suggest that most people who have dogs that don't range when searching have issues for one or more of these reasons:

1. They use obedience in their searching..and should not. "Search" and a "back/this way" command should be all that is said. I have learned first hand (the hard way) what can happen when you talk too much, teach a dog to false alert because of poor training set up, or, give young dogs feedback when they look at you when searching. I was taught to give direction commands (body cues) when the dog looked at me. BAD, would never do it again.
1a) Working on direction changes when searching should be done only after independent searching is imprinted and should only be an occasional goal.

2. Their idea of obedience is having a velcro dog under direct off leash control at all times, usually done with compulsion. This kind of ob will cause issues in many search dogs. A dog that has learned that his owner is an island of safety..not good. I have seen people teather themselves to their dogs 24 hrs a day to be the dog's alpha after a tv trainer told them so....also not good.

3. People have the wrong dog for the job. Ob or no ob, it would lack the independence and drive needed to work effectively at SAR tasks that require range and pursuit.


So, how to be able to do obedience and have an independent searcher? Even if you start with a 8 week old puppy?

1. Short ob sessions with a distinct begining and end...physical or verbal cues to start and end sessions.

1.a Use positive methods until dog is clear on what is being asked, layer corrections over only on more experienced dogs, they must be fair and understood by the dog.

2. Plenty of time to just be a dog and range around with no obedience required. Different ways of acheiving this, I like off leash walking in the woods, and do NOT work on any obedience there other than the odd recall or if safety is an issue.

3. Don't require 24 hrs a day obedience, just because the dog can do it. There is something to be said for just putting the dog on a leash and teaching it not to pull as the only rule in some situations.

I think with these rules a dog will be very responsive to the handler and you will have ob when you really need it and ask for it. And when you don't need it, the dog will be free to think for itself.


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Greta has her CGC and NAPWDA OB. She listens well anytime unless on a track or workng cadaver lol. I really don't give any OB commands when she is working, other than stop or here if really needed. She will switch directions when casting if I whistle. She is very independant and I have not had a problem.


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

We work on obedience everytime before we go on a search. However, once the harness and the bell is on, the only command she gets right now is "Search" and "Show me". Other than that, I don't interfere with her. Have not had a need for it yet.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

You folks are raising working puppies and allowing their natural drives to develop as well.

I can say the typical dog that comes in having learned all kinds of obedience stuff before starting SAR seems to not be the kind that ranges very well or works independantly. 

Maybe it is not strictly the obedience - perhaps it is other things that go along with stifling independance and confidence in a young puppy.

I really don't know. I have no call for anything other than basic - come, sit, down, stay, drop on recall, walk loosely at my side, and load into the truck, and "check here" [I use that where I want the DOG to go under the bridge, check a drain, or to the base of the earthern dam without me]


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> You folks are raising working puppies and allowing their natural drives to develop as well.
> 
> I can say the typical dog that comes in having learned all kinds of obedience stuff before starting SAR seems to not be the kind that ranges very well or works independantly.
> 
> ...


You are right Nancy. When we see teams that are trying to get started in SAR with pet dogs that they have raised without SAR in mind from the get go, but the dogs do have a fair bit of obedience....they tend not to work out well. Like you said, there can be a few factors at work there. 

If I was going to get a non puppy for SAR, i would want it to be pretty green, because you just don't know what people will do. We have quite a few 10-14 month old green dogs that end up in our organization from our mentor organization, and it is nice to know exactly how they were raised to avoid those issues.

Basic ob is just fine for a SAR dog...like I said, I am a geek that is interested in something more. But the premise that formal or competitive ob will ruin one is not something I agree with. IF it is done correctly, with the right dog, handler and methods.


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

I honestly had no idea what it takes to raise a SAR dog, however I know what it takes to raise a working dog. Indra had a lot of freedom. I don't really believe in crate training, we went on a lot of off leash hikes and i allow my dogs to run free and roam and run on those hikes because I know that I can trust them. We did a lot of clicker training and basic obedience and I do believe it plays a major role that she is able to work independently. 

Most pet dogs I know are not even allowed to stay outside the crate when their owners leave the house. They do not have trust in their dogs. A lot of them could never go on hikes like I do because they do not have the trust. 

I've seen it with a friend of mine. Their dog had to lay in one spot, all day long. If he got up, even if it just was to stretch his legs or to get some water it was "LAY DOWN!". He was not allowed to walk from the kitchen to the bathroom. 

Most of the time, they don't have a real bond with their dogs. They want sheeps but not independent individuals that think for themselves. With the clicker training, tracking, obedience and hiking I created a bond, and my dogs are allowed to be dogs. They are not crated when I leave the house, they can play and rn with each other. 

I know I can trust my dogs, and if you can't even trust your dog outside a crate in your own house, how are you going to trust him in the field?


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## LEE SCOTESE (Feb 14, 2011)

Question for all:
I'm curious what distance you consider decent range while searching, and once in scent. Please note type of terrain.
Thanks,


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Sandra King said:


> I honestly had no idea what it takes to raise a SAR dog, however I know what it takes to raise a working dog. Indra had a lot of freedom. I don't really believe in crate training, we went on a lot of off leash hikes and i allow my dogs to run free and roam and run on those hikes because I know that I can trust them. We did a lot of clicker training and basic obedience and I do believe it plays a major role that she is able to work independently.
> 
> Most pet dogs I know are not even allowed to stay outside the crate when their owners leave the house. They do not have trust in their dogs. A lot of them could never go on hikes like I do because they do not have the trust.
> 
> ...


I don't beleive that crates have much to do with it. Whether a dog can be left in the house alone all day without wrecking it has very little to do with if the dog will be an independent searcher worthy of trust in the field. Your correlation there is a spurious one in my opinion.

That said, your post may just start the great crate debate. It is almost as popular a topic as copper retrieving LOL!


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

When my dog is working an area (and we are doing HR) I want to be able to see him or hear his bell (heavy brush) so I can know what is going on.

When he hits scent I expect him to not even know I exist.


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

I start ob as soon as I get the pup (Griff was 4 months when I got him, Remus was 2 months). I keep it really simple and use basically marker training with food rewards. I have big german shepherds and live in suburbia, so I believe that my dogs should be ambassadors for the breed and be as far from the nervy/aggressive stereotype as possible. I generally do 2 basic group obedience classes when they are young, just to work around other dogs in closer spaces. I will do an agility class for the same reason. But I believe that I pick the right dogs--I dont think a lot of ob would diminish their drive or make them more dependent on me. Not sure how to judge my cadaver dog--I always have his reward and he is more attuned to me than my live find dog--but of course the live find dog knows his toy is out in the woods somewhere not with me!

I do crate training until I can trust them alone in the house. Once my dogs have the basic obedience--I dont do much of it as long as they dont lose too much! Griffin is doing much more obedience lately because Remus needs it! I work griff so he doesnt feel too left out.

We have to pass an ob test for wilderness and urban and an agility test (where you must have control over your dog off leash) for urban, plus directionals and a long down (with handler out of sight for 5 minutes and dogs in a line up). 

My dogs also a lot of freedom--they are mainly free in the house, we hike off leash most days and I will practice a long distance down and the recall (I whistle they come, they get a treat). I want to make sure I can control them at a distance if necessary. But it is pretty low key and positive.

I was taught that there is no ob in search work and to leave my dog alone...I have learned that there are times I need to speak to my dog, but basically let the dog learn and work. After the early search training, some direction is employed--getting them to stay in your area, leave a critter hole, and 'go see' an area they may have missed.

I have a dog who ranges more than most that I have seen. I have spent many a silent minute in the woods thinking 'crap, where is he!!!, hope he comes back and doesnt get hurt'. I dont know how far he has been from me, but he's been gone for 10+ minutes (it seems endless). We have had problems set up expecting to take an hr or more that with the wind right took 30 secs--if he gets scent he is gone.


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

I am with Nancy, though, I would really rather at least hear the bell than have a dog so far away I have no clue what he is doing. And you can hear the difference in the bell when the dog is basically working and when the dog has scent.


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

I'm not sure how far Greta would range. If she is on a live track she will go until she finds the person and never worry about me.

On cadaver, the farthest I really let her go is about the lengthof a football field. Terrain doesn't matter. Her alert is sit, so if she is out of sight she can't get her reward. She has began to leave the cadaver and get me if I am out of sight, the run back. She is 9 months but has really figured this stuff out amazingly.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

LEE SCOTESE said:


> Question for all:
> I'm curious what distance you consider decent range while searching, and once in scent. Please note type of terrain.
> Thanks,


Very conditions dependent. For avalanche, over all the dog will range further with firmer and smoother, less chunky surfaces. Much less in very deep snow / debris. Think about breaking trail in snow up to your crotch. Will generally range further when working downhill than when working up a steep hill. The dog will range further (or at least move faster) at the beginning of a search than it will a half hour into it lets say. Some of that is training when it may be appropriate a ways into the search to have the dog do more fine searching for finds with much less available scent.

Some avalanches are small, some are huge, so range will vary there too as dictated by the search area.

How far they range when in scent? From where they are to where the find is I guess. Could be 100 meters for burials even, in decent conditions. For something buried deep with very little scent, they may have to be right on top of it to smell it.

I think in real life there are times you need to keep the dog closer to you than normal too, but not something I would work on with a new dog.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

I know a lot of people who have pretty decent levels of obedience on their SAR dogs (SchH 3 titled, etc.) and it has no affect on the dogs' abilities to range or work independently.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

julie allen said:


> I'm not sure how far Greta would range. If she is on a live track she will go until she finds the person and never worry about me.
> 
> On cadaver, the farthest I really let her go is about the lengthof a football field. Terrain doesn't matter. Her alert is sit, so if she is out of sight she can't get her reward. She has began to leave the cadaver and get me if I am out of sight, the run back. She is 9 months but has really figured this stuff out amazingly.


Grim does this as well and I am torn because he is not supposed to LEAVE scent but when he leaves to find me it is to get me back to the source......so you know.......we are in a situation where that is not going to happen on bones but when you get large amount of decomp it will...........so it is basically a self-trained recall/refind.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

From my perspective, solid directionals and a no-fail emergency stop command are requsite.

DFrost


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## Adi Ibrahimbegovic (Nov 21, 2008)

So, what happens when you encounter a dog aggressive dog coming around the bend in your off leash hiking adventures and you have a dog fight in front of you?

Trusting them is great and I do agree with most of what you say, but it's the other dogs and their dumb owners that I have some reservations about.



Sandra King said:


> I don't really believe in crate training, we went on a lot of off leash hikes and i allow my dogs to run free and roam and run on those hikes because I know that I can trust them.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

In all the time I have done training and searches, there has been the occassional loose dog .... but no dog fights. 

If I am working in an iffy place (where cadaver searches and nursing hiome walkaways sometimes are) etc. then I have LE with a gun and they would take care of the problem - on our last search a gun got pulled on a dog but the freaked out owner got it back. 

But I don't even know anyone who has had that issue though I do folks who have had snake bites. There are also other dangers out there (wildlife, terrain). It is a risk you take.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Oh, no - I let my dogs offlead in the woods when I am just walking but I still don't let them get out of sight (unless it is scentwork and my working dog is on scent) or let them do too many doggy things (like chasing game, etc.).

But once we got past a phase where I wanted the dog being ABLE to walk offlead and keep a good distance I dont do a lot of that. If my dog is offlead in the woods anymore he normally is only wearing his working hat -


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

My dogs are never out of sight on walks and they basically keep to the path. I dont allow crittering and if they are running through the woods I assume they are crittering, so I call them back. So I guess it has become habit for them to stay on paths.
Never had a dog fight, I always call mine back as soon as I see an alert type behavior or hear other people or dogs. If I didnt have enough ob to call them off something interesting, I wouldnt let them off leash.

Thankfully not many of the unleashed uncontrolled dogs who run up to mine are actually aggressive--and if they come in aggressive, they generally change their mind once they get close. I have been lucky since I have had the 2 dogs, havent met too many dogs willing to come in all the way to us.


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## Jim Delbridge (Jan 27, 2010)

You really won't know if you have too much control/obedience on your dog until you work double blinds and the results suggest your control on the dog overwhelmed the dog's pursuit of scent; Otherwise, it's basically personal comfort zone.

Jim


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

Adi Ibrahimbegovic said:


> So, what happens when you encounter a dog aggressive dog coming around the bend in your off leash hiking adventures and you have a dog fight in front of you?
> 
> Trusting them is great and I do agree with most of what you say, but it's the other dogs and their dumb owners that I have some reservations about.


That is where local knowledge kicks in. Use spots that are not frequented. 

When it's raining outside and the weather isn't nice, people won't be outside hiking their dogs. 

Plus, a lot of people are lazy and don't want to spend the money to drive all the way up to a certain spot, only to hike down and up on the other side. 

Or simply use areas where you can see wide and far and you have enough time to get out of the way. 

With a little common sense you can go on off leash hikes and never come across a dog aggressive dog.

The only times I came across dog aggressive dogs was in town or at trails that are close to town. But they further you drive out, the less people you find. But you have to know your area.
And if you do cross a dog, you've got to have a rock-solid recall. Call them back, put them on the leash.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Jim Delbridge said:


> You really won't know if you have too much control/obedience on your dog until you work double blinds and the results suggest your control on the dog overwhelmed the dog's pursuit of scent; Otherwise, it's basically personal comfort zone.
> 
> Jim


Sometimes though, such as in disaster SAR, there are situations where my control of the dog must override the dog's pursuit of scent.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Jim Delbridge said:


> You really won't know if you have too much control/obedience on your dog until you work double blinds and the results suggest your control on the dog overwhelmed the dog's pursuit of scent; Otherwise, it's basically personal comfort zone.
> 
> Jim


About the closest I normally get to a double blind is to have someone set a problem, mark it with a GPS, and return with my locations with them not going with me.

For live problems, that is why we do mock searches and have an uninvlved 3rd party set them up.


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## Jim Delbridge (Jan 27, 2010)

That's not a double blind. You know there is a source(s) there. When I teach advanced students, I set up enough ares such that each one gets their own clean sector. I take the handler in without their dog, show them the area, hand them flags and tell them their area is 0-to-N. They can yell for me or call me by cell phone when they think they are done. When I come back, if any of the flags are wrong then I pull them and ask if they'd like to continue or make this area a training problem. The dog team now has an efficiency number to put in their logs and they get the best training they can get other than a real search.

Once they are each done, they can then rotate to another area, but it is now contaminated by the previous dog team which they should reflect in their logs.


In disaster, you always run the risk of missing someone for the safety of the dog, but most FEMA dogs should also be able to search out of the sight of their handler. When I've done CaDaster, I always request to be allowed on the pile with the dog such that I can read the dog's posture changes to see if I'd like it to come back later and re-work an area.

For those that don't know what a double-blind is, check out www.SWGDOG.org.
Go to "Approved Guidelines" and then terms.


Jim


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

No I do not know if there is a source there. It can be a blank. or it can be multiple sources.

I have described it before. It is me and the dog and not a clue where the hid is or how many or if.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Konnie Hein said:


> Sometimes though, such as in disaster SAR, there are situations where my control of the dog must override the dog's pursuit of scent.


Thank you Konnie. It's why I said, directionals and an emergency stop are requsite. Being able to "read" the dog comes through training. There really is no other way to learn how the dog reacts to certain situations. Running anything but blind training targets (with a trained dog) are generally not a learning experience for the handler. Generally and in my experience, the handler is the weak link in the team. 

DFrost


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

David Frost said:


> Thank you Konnie. It's why I said, directionals and an emergency stop are requsite. Being able to "read" the dog comes through training. There really is no other way to learn how the dog reacts to certain situations. Running anything but blind training targets (with a trained dog) are generally not a learning experience for the handler. Generally and in my experience, the handler is the weak link in the team.
> 
> DFrost


Totally agree. And one has to know that it is the handler that is the weak link. I know one person where it's always the dog and it is why he isn't getting any further. If he would understand that it's him that needs to change something, it'd be a totally different picture. 

Personally, I know that it's me. I have an awesome dog and it's me that is always a step behind.


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## Jim Delbridge (Jan 27, 2010)

Then it is a double blind, my apologies.

I was telling someone this morning about area search tests where I've been given a sector and asked to go hide where I pleased. In such instances I have a radio with ear piece and mic. Several times I've had evaluators literally feet from me and have no idea I was there. In one such instance the dog found me, did a nice recall/alert, took the handler to my spot and the evaluators were starting to tell her she failed. In that instance I shouted out of the bushes, "Dog Team Passed. Evaluators Failed!" 
They weren't happy with me as they felt I should have radio'd them. My attitude was it was a real life test and you can have oblivious flankers. Heck, I've stood on a source before and not known it only to have my dog come over and tap on my shoe, look up and me, and those watching trying not to laugh. I stepped aside and my dog alerted on the phalanges I'd been standing on while one of the problem setters kept me busy talking. 

Jim


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

Jim Delbridge said:


> In disaster, you always run the risk of missing someone for the safety of the dog, but most FEMA dogs should also be able to search out of the sight of their handler. When I've done CaDaster, I always request to be allowed on the pile with the dog such that I can read the dog's posture changes to see if I'd like it to come back later and re-work an area.
> 
> 
> Jim


All disaster dogs (FEMA and SUSAR) must search while out of sight of their handler. It is part of the testing process and something we train for often. There are instances where we are not allowed to go where the dogs go. 

Being on the pile is great to be able to watch the body language, especially when doing a blind problem. But I would say I train equal amounts being up with my dog and being out of sight. Of course there are almost always someone up on the pile watching, so they can tell you what the dog is doing.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

I am sure we can all agree that there are some times for the safety of ourselves or the dog we must use some obedience on the search site (such as an emergency stop as David said, or a recall...whatever).

This is the way I organize this in my head, for what I do anyways...I am not suggesting this is the best way and enjoy hearing what others do as well. 

For training problems, one could have various goals, depending on the strengths and weaknesses of a particular dog and the level of training/progression.

If I have a dog that is very responsive to directional changes and my body cues, and is borderline looking at the handler too much, independent searching may be a goal of many many of my searches. I will use as few direction changes as possible, as long as the dog is working, is safe and so on, I will let them work. Patterning will only be a once and a while goal with this dog because they are easy to pattern, and could start to rely on the handler.

If I have a really independent dog, and is not responsive the handler, maybe direction changes, and patterning is something I work on more. Because real life dictates I must cover a search area and patterning will be required, and this kind of dog can take a lot of direction and not start to depend on it or be distracted by it.

With more experienced dogs I also occasionally set up known searches where I can purposely try to take a dog off a find once in scent. (Mine are buried and dog must dig to source). First starting with my movement, then with my change of direction commands in my casual tone and so on. I am personally hoping that my dog's pursuit here is strong enough to stay at the source. Either way it is going to tell me something about us as a team. Pretty sure I have even shown a video clip of this once apon a time.

It happens in my profile that I am changing direction (on skis in difficult terrain) or the terrain is blocking my line of site from the dog, an I may not be able to see my dog. If I give a change of direction to my usually responsive dog, and don't see the dog respond...I usually think...good chance he is in scent and would go investigate instead of calling my dog to me.

Now, in the case of an emergency, I don't use my change of direction command, if I need my dog to recall or stop, I recall or stop it and expect it to happen. I very rarely practice recalls and "have to" obedience in my searching. I practice it outside of searching though a lot. There are usually enough training snafus that present themselves naturally over time where I get to use some "have to" ob in the search, just enough to know I have the control I want if need be.

I guess I think of it as a balance, and it is going to be different for various dogs, stages of training, venues and so on. 

Konnie is this fresh in your head for any reason:mrgreen: LOL.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I think since most of our language searching is body language by moving our bodies and the dog searching relative to us, that is the command they can deny. If we MOVE and they are on scent they should ignore tha. If we say LEAVE IT they should leave it. 

I have done that to my own dog. He got real pissy with me too. I thought he was playing in the stream. He was on scent. I wanted him to rework the hill he told me was negative so he walked over to a tree, sat, and stared at me and I KNEW I had made a mistake. The guy who set it up said take the dog back to the stream, tell him to get to work and shut up. Sure enough 50 yards upstream. .....

------------------

But I do see the point of saying you should be ABLE to call your dog off scent. But If I am working a pattern the scent should be more imporant to him than my pattern. He leaves the pattern with purpose and I follow him and that means being able to read the dog. ---- now I am strictly talking widlerness type stuff ---- not disaster scenes of which I know precious little.


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## charles Turner (Mar 2, 2009)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> I think since most of our language searching is body language by moving our bodies and the dog searching relative to us, that is the command they can deny. If we MOVE and they are on scent they should ignore tha. If we say LEAVE IT they should leave it.
> 
> I have done that to my own dog. He got real pissy with me too. I thought he was playing in the stream. He was on scent. I wanted him to rework the hill he told me was negative so he walked over to a tree, sat, and stared at me and I KNEW I had made a mistake. The guy who set it up said take the dog back to the stream, tell him to get to work and shut up. Sure enough 50 yards upstream. .....
> 
> ...


 This might be off topic a little, but if you were to show up at my training group, with my group, with a prong, you would be shot on sight, e-collar, you would be be-headed. I have trained with WL dogs for awhile now and I believe i'm the only person, who has selected a dog to work, most have rescued a pet, then make it a SEARCH DOG, I mind my buisness on these type of things, but i'm having a hard time fittting in. Any suggestions?


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> I guess I think of it as a balance, and it is going to be different for various dogs, stages of training, venues and so on.


I agree with you 100%.



> Konnie is this fresh in your head for any reason:mrgreen: LOL.


Stop it! :lol:


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> I think since most of our language searching is body language by moving our bodies and the dog searching relative to us, that is the command they can deny. [QUOTE/]
> 
> Agreed, and I go so far as to move way away from my dog sometimes when he is in scent or on a find. I do it even in the early stages of training. Of course my rewards are at the source, not on me, so it is easy for a dog with good pursuit to stay with the source.
> 
> ...


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Agreed, and I go so far as to move way away from my dog sometimes when he is in scent or on a find. I do it even in the early stages of training. Of course my rewards are at the source, not on me, so it is easy for a dog with good pursuit to stay with the source.


 
We do the same. The training method we use incorporates a lot of distraction in the early stages, including the handler purposefully trying to distract the dog, to promote "obedience to odor."


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I have backed out of an area when my dog starts detailing it on his own and then walked my "slow walk" .......... So I guess that is teaching obedience to scent without having the dog disobey a *command* but this conversation has helped firm some things up in my head.

But yes, what I do is so different from disaster - if I am in a danger area (mainly urban) my dog is on a long line and you cannot do that on a rubble pile

The prong/ecollar thing should be another different topic. Glad to discuss -


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