# Reaction during puppy play



## Kat LaPlante (May 17, 2009)

Looking for the opinions of the forum please.

after a brief morning play session with the rag it was time to let the pup and the 2 year old play. Needless to say the pup was excited after the session and the dog was geared up to play frisbee. Both dogs were squared off for the frisbee waiting for one or the other to leave an opening  Due to a really good bark session from the pup I reached in to give her a "good girl" pat on the side and like lightning she turned and grabbed my hand.

Is this a situation to avoid in the future by simply minding my own business, similar to my philosophy of not mnessing with a dog while its eating, or is this something to attend to?

At this point the pup has not had any "corrections", simply reinforcement and redirection.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

All my dogs did that when they were young (Ash still does it)....IMO, that is what happens when you get them all spun up to do something. 

I don't usually correct it since it has gone away as they get older and they were never meaning to actually bite me, it was more along the lines of thinking there was something in my hand......if it was an aggressive thing, then I would correct it.


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## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

Kat LaPlante said:


> Looking for the opinions of the forum please.
> 
> after a brief morning play session with the rag it was time to let the pup and the 2 year old play. Needless to say the pup was excited after the session and the dog was geared up to play frisbee. Both dogs were squared off for the frisbee waiting for one or the other to leave an opening  Due to a really good bark session from the pup I reached in to give her a "good girl" pat on the side and like lightning she turned and grabbed my hand.
> 
> ...



How old is the pup?

P.s. your theory on not touching a dogs food is insane. I'm the leader, I take whatever I want, whenever I want. That's my theory.....


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## Kat LaPlante (May 17, 2009)

I know Ted, I believe there have been some heated discussions about the touching food topic here already.My opinion is, I have no reason to take the food away so it seems like a game that is not fun for me or my dogs. I say, let the dog eat, undisturbed. Dont we tease our dogs enough with their toys anyway? 

the pup is only 3.5 months old.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Ted Efthymiadis said:


> P.s. your theory on not touching a dogs food is insane. I'm the leader, I take whatever I want, whenever I want. That's my theory.....


Your theory sucks ass, why would you even try this ? What's the point ?


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## Tamara McIntosh (Jul 14, 2009)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Your theory sucks ass, why would you even try this ? What's the point ?


well one good reason is my child. If a dog is allowed to be food/toy possessive what happens when a child accidentally stumbles into the dog eating a bone or playing with a toy??? I for one, would rather the child NOT get bit over food possession.

Tamara McIntosh


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Tamara McIntosh said:


> well one good reason is my child. If a dog is allowed to be food/toy possessive what happens when a child accidentally stumbles into the dog eating a bone or playing with a toy??? I for one, would rather the child NOT get bit over food possession.
> 
> Tamara McIntosh


Why is your child able to accidentally able to stumble into your dogs food or toys ?

Nobody wants to be accountable anymore, it's always somebody or something else that is at fault.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Why is your child able to accidentally able to stumble into your dogs food or toys ?
> 
> Nobody wants to be accountable anymore, it's always somebody or something else that is at fault.


 
I thought I was the only one that caught that....


They shouldn't be un-supervised together, and WTF anyway....


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Here is a crazy thought, own a dog that isn't such a nervous **** that going near it's food sends it over the edge.

Here is another crazy thought, why the **** are you letting a 3 month old puppy get punked for the frisbee by playing with it with an older dog ??

I would bite your dumb ass too.

I do have a theory on the food thing, natural selection. These people are so not supposed to breed that the dog is trying to show them by taking their idiot child out. 

If I got bit by a dog as a kid ****ing with their food like an idiot, I got an ass wupping along with whatever else the dog did, and I got put to bed.

I missed out, but my brother got it.


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## Kat LaPlante (May 17, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Here is a crazy thought, own a dog that isn't such a nervous **** that going near it's food sends it over the edge.
> 
> Here is another crazy thought, why the **** are you letting a 3 month old puppy get punked for the frisbee by playing with it with an older dog ??
> 
> ...


The pup gets "punked" for nothing.
She didn't bite my ass, she bit my hand.
and yes, I too would have been the one to blame if I had been bit by a dog. It would have sounded like, "Well what the hell did you do to the dog?"


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

Kat LaPlante said:


> ... waiting for one or the other to leave an opening...


would you explain exactly what you mean here? did the pup have a long line on while the 2 y/o was in a sit? if you give us a visual it may help (it'll help ME anyway)

re the food thing, i'm thinking that's another thread, not the main question here.


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## Kat LaPlante (May 17, 2009)

2yr old and pup at play. No leashes just play, 2 yr old is not allowed to take toys away from pup when they are together, I try to gather all the toys before they are free, missed this one.

pup and dog at a stand off with frisbee in the middle (2 yr old wont take it big dog is not allowed to take things from small dog) pup's excitement is building on the already excited state after solo rag play. 2 yr old stands ground, pup more and more playful, barking begins from puppy. I reach in for an encouraging "good girl" and she turns and grabs me, takes frisbee and entices 2 year old to chase her. Game over: pup 1; owner 0.  

I suspect this is nothing more than a matter of too much excitement but would appreciate comments if some of you think it is negative behaviour that may need to be avoided.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I'm probably going against what most here believe but I want any pup I raise to know my skin is off limits.
Play or for real they get a reaction from you and your response has a great deal to do with your leadership.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Ted Efthymiadis said:


> P.s. your theory on not touching a dogs food is insane. I'm the leader, I take whatever I want, whenever I want. That's my theory.....


I agree with both sides here, I feed my dogs in their crates or kennels and leave them alone while eating.....if I wanted to or needed to, I could reach in and take it, but with their meals, I don't. 

However, with toys, bones and stuff I don't want them to have, I agree...it is mine....so I teach a leave it command and when I say that....they do it...no questions asked......period. 

I don't allow kids to be around my dogs unsupervised, ever.....


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

FWIW, kat, in the situation you describe, i would just forget about it : baby pup is just going "brainless" on you. at 16 weeks old, with the breeding--i would say "ouch!", then "YES" (to myself). 

but what do i know ? NADA


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## Guest (Jul 10, 2010)

Yeah, that's nothin'. At 3.5 months you should feel lucky the pup is not hanging off your triceps and forearms all day and night.


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## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Your theory sucks ass, why would you even try this ? What's the point ?


Many of my clients dogs have resource guarding issues that could have been dealt with in the puppy stages. 

By the time I get to see the dog, he wants to take my hand off when anyone goes near his food.

Also, the majority of dogs who show up in SPCA's, will be put down if they are aggressive over food.
(rubber hand test).

We recently saved a really nice Dutchie from the chopping block because it had issues over food when it showed up at the SPCA in Toronto. They were going to put it down.

Prevent the problem before it happens, rather than fixing it when a dog snapps at someone.


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## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Why is your child able to accidentally able to stumble into your dogs food or toys ?
> 
> Nobody wants to be accountable anymore, it's always somebody or something else that is at fault.



Stuff happens Gerry. Rather than just lock the dog up and hope for the best.
Do the training, and lock the dog up. That way, if the dog is put in a situation with a child, it will know how to react.


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## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

Kat LaPlante said:


> Looking for the opinions of the forum please.
> 
> after a brief morning play session with the rag it was time to let the pup and the 2 year old play. Needless to say the pup was excited after the session and the dog was geared up to play frisbee. Both dogs were squared off for the frisbee waiting for one or the other to leave an opening  Due to a really good bark session from the pup I reached in to give her a "good girl" pat on the side and like lightning she turned and grabbed my hand.
> 
> ...




This training can be done in the puppies stages without corrections. 

Food is always going to be of lesser value than a high value treat. As you play in the dogs food, open your hand and give the dog a treat....... 

After a few sessions, the dog doesn't see you as a jerk for touching his/her food. Rather they see you touching their food as a way to get a high value reward. 

There is a million ways to train a dog.............


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## Guest (Jul 10, 2010)

Good points Ted. It can really be dealt with without corrections at any age, although the longer one allows the behavior, the harder it will be to treat no matter how you approach it. Degrees of resource guarding are highly variable and there are some dogs that are just that way and will always be that way to some degree no matter what you do. If left to their own devices, resource guarders have a higher chance of ending up in the news and must be managed accordingly. If you hate seeing "dog bites child" headlines, then you should probably set a good example and at least try to do something about your own dog. otherwise you're just a hypocrite. If your dog bites a neighbor's kid in the face for getting too close, while you're standing there chatting, I doubt the kid's parents, the police or the courts will blame the kid. 

_"Food is always going to be of lesser value than a high value treat. As you play in the dogs food, open your hand and give the dog a treat....... 

After a few sessions, the dog doesn't see you as a jerk for touching his/her food. Rather they see you touching their food as a way to get a high value reward." _ 

There is a step by step protocol for food guarding and some dogs need to be started at step one. This is like step 6. You have to take it in steps. Some dogs won't even allow people into the same room without teeth. 

Unless the dog is always kept in a padlocked kennel inside a padlocked building with zero chance of interacting with children or adults who are unaware, a resource guarder is a serious liability. Its not about people specifically messing with the dog's food just for shits and giggles. Its about inevitable situations in the real world, not fantasy sporty dog world, in which the dog will have the opportunity to bite or kill a human for doing something like accidentally getting too close when a resource is present. Resources can be things like treats, owner, toy, space etc. If your dog is ever out in public it will see these resources in combination with people. That is inevitable. If your dog is aggressive to people to protect its resources, that is a potential problem. If you think your reaction time is faster than a dog's and that you can prevent your dog from biting a child in the head if it stumbles an inch too close, or is standing next to you when you give a dog a treat then you are high. The whole unsupervised kid thing is a silly point as even *when* "supervised" with a hand on the harness or collar, a dog can pretty much inflict a bite whenever it wants. If you say you don't allow your dogs around kids... period, then that actually means something. 

The basic reality is that we can only micro-manage our dogs so much. At some point human error will occur at just the wrong time and that is when horrible things happen. I keep seeing all these references to the good ole days when people got blamed for getting dog bit. Come on. The reality is there are a whole lot more people on the planet and a whole hell of a lot more dogs on the planet per capita now than there were 20-30-50-100 years ago. Wild West/ backwoods justice ain't reality these days. Courts decide what's what. Its your dog and your life, but its probably advisable for everyone to do their best to ensure their dogs are "good citizens" in addition to whatever else you choose to do with them.


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## Tamara McIntosh (Jul 14, 2009)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Why is your child able to accidentally able to stumble into your dogs food or toys ?
> 
> Nobody wants to be accountable anymore, it's always somebody or something else that is at fault.


I am accountable and I take responsibility for my dogs therefore my dogs are neither food nor toy possessive. I have never had an incident of my dogs ever biting any child. But I do know a good many idiots who allow their dogs to be food/toy possessive and I have seen many incidents of children getting bitten because of it.

I guess people who keep their dogs kenneled and away from their familys wouldn't care about this issue. However my dogs and my child interact on a daily basis, under supervision, and so I do care. 

What is the point of allowing a dog to be possessive over toys or food??? How do you feel this makes a better dog?

Tamara McIntosh


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## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

I don't have children, but what is the point of feeding a dog around children and leaving toys laying around in the house? I feed my dogs in their kennels and respect their space. None of them have food aggression because they've never been a situation to learn the behavior. To each their own, but I only let my dogs have toys/rewards while working them and never in the house (I like my floors to much).


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## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

Vin Chiu;204082
There is a step by step protocol for food guarding and some dogs need to be started at step one. This is like step 6. You have to take it in steps. Some dogs won't even allow people into the same room without teeth.
[/QUOTE said:


> Please explain the first five steps.
> 
> Just wondering?
> thanks


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: What is the point of allowing a dog to be possessive over toys or food??? How do you feel this makes a better dog?

I guess you have to get a little further along in dogs before you can start to say silly shit like "allow". LOL

One day you may get a little ****er that will explain to you very clearly that he is going to keep his shit, or die trying. You can overpower them when they are young, but they don't stay little, and they are dead serious about being possesive. 

I personally hate that shit.


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## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: What is the point of allowing a dog to be possessive over toys or food??? How do you feel this makes a better dog?
> 
> I guess you have to get a little further along in dogs before you can start to say silly shit like "allow". LOL
> 
> ...


My new mal came up on me many many times over issues like this when I got him. He had fight like I had never seen in a pet, or a working dog before. 

He's just peachy now. 

Possessiveness is awesome.... over a basket on the training field. But not in my house.... ever.

I hate that crap too. Just my thoughts.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: What is the point of allowing a dog to be possessive over toys or food??? How do you feel this makes a better dog?
> 
> I guess you have to get a little further along in dogs before you can start to say silly shit like "allow". LOL
> 
> ...


I think it's foolish to mess with a dog over food aggression when management does a much better job . Espescially with a strong dog who has the advantage while guarding it's food . I simply take it on the rare occassion I've needed to take it and he can growl and snap all he wants as long as he doesn't bite me we have no issues . If he descided to get stupid he knows he will see the bright pearly gates of heaven again .

He was the same way with guarding the kennel I allow him to live in and MY squad car . He had his stupid moments with both of these areas when I first got him but it was cured quickly . Now I go in the kennel when I want and deal with him in my squad how I want . He still growls but that's it . I will not however just pick a fight with him for growling at me , even though it does bug the sh** out of me . If he wants to take it further then I'll deal with it .

I have never found management around food , in all the years I've had dogs , to be that difficult . Feed them in a seperate room or kennel , step away and let them eat in peace for the 2-3 minutes it takes and make sure noone else bothers them . If there is too much going on at the time where I can't make sure someone will bother them then I simply don't feed them at that time .

I don't worry about a loss of "pack status" like so many fear they will if they ignore that type of aggression . I simply enforce all commands I give the dog . If he disobeys I deal with it .


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Adam Rawlings said:


> I don't have children, but what is the point of feeding a dog around children and leaving toys laying around in the house? I feed my dogs in their kennels and respect their space. None of them have food aggression because they've never been a situation to learn the behavior. To each their own, but I only let my dogs have toys/rewards while working them and never in the house


Amen to that ...

Leave a dog alone when he's eating. None of my dogs is aggressive when I give them their food. I give them their food bowl, pat them "good boy", and leave. They don't even look up as they know I won't bother them.

It's different when I feed them a real prey animal. They see that as their prey and wouldn't allow me to take it from them. But still I can go in their kennel and take their bowl to put fresh water without them reacting aggressively as long as I leave them alone.

It's fine with me like this. To be honest, I wouldn't allow anyone to take my food either


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

With wolves, it's pretty well documented now that that subordinate members will in fact defend food from higher members if they grab something and walk off with it to enjoy it by themselves. So it's not a great idea to pick a fight. My male Mal as a pup was initially somewhat growly over food. What helped was simply giving him half his ration and approaching him in his crate with the second half while he was still eating the first and talking to him in a low calm voice. After a while, it just occurred to him "oh, she's bringing more of the good stuff. Okay, sweet!"


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> With wolves,


PFFffttttttt


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

People always wanna bring up the YOU MUST BE DOMINANT ALPHA WITH YOUR DOG LIKE DOMINANT ALPHA WOLF RRRRAAARRRLLL thing, which is often not quite reality with what wolves actually do. So pffft to you too, Gerry.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Kat LaPlante said:


> The pup gets "punked" for nothing.
> She didn't bite my ass, she bit my hand.
> and yes, I too would have been the one to blame if I had been bit by a dog. It would have sounded like, "Well what the hell did you do to the dog?"


says it all LOL....you were bit by a dog...so my advice would be to be careful when you reach out to pet the amped up pup


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> says it all LOL....you were bit by a dog...so my advice would be to be careful when you reach out to pet the amped up pup


Good advice Joby--us dumb-asses do get ourselves bit forgetting it. I t got bit in the foot 3 days ago because I decided it was bright to kick the ball for my 9 month old gsd because he brought it to me and dropped it so nicely. I kicked, he grabbed and my foot got caught.....to top it off, I was barefoot.....Certainly not the dogs fault, I knew it was stupid, but did it anyway LOL. On the bright side, I did manage to wear a shoe today and it didnt hurt too badly...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Jennifer Michelson said:


> Good advice Joby--us dumb-asses do get ourselves bit forgetting it. I t got bit in the foot 3 days ago because I decided it was bright to kick the ball for my 9 month old gsd because he brought it to me and dropped it so nicely. I kicked, he grabbed and my foot got caught.....to top it off, I was barefoot.....Certainly not the dogs fault, I knew it was stupid, but did it anyway LOL. On the bright side, I did manage to wear a shoe today and it didnt hurt too badly...


ouch...=D>=D>


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## Karla Peterson (Feb 1, 2010)

When my pup is in high gear and forgets; I use a sharp "NO BITE' and redirect. 
Karla


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