# antibiotics before breeding???



## Steve Estrada

Is anyone familiar with giving antibiotics for seven to ten days prior to mating to destroy (obviously) any potential problems? Cephlexin (sp?) was recommended by a very knowledgeable person in the breeding business, saying lots of breeders of different breeds do this? I'm not familiar with this and would be interested in some qualified expertise.:-o


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## Maren Bell Jones

Rubbish...probably the same folks who require a negative vaginal culture for anything. Not based on any science. Get a brucellosis test yes, but there will be normal bacterial flora in the reproductive tract. Not necessary unless there are actual infertility problems that need to be worked up. This pratice just promotes antibiotic resistance.


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## Connie Sutherland

Interestingly, I was reading something recently where this came up:

http://www.dobermann-review.com/info/breeding/canine_reproduction.htm
(especially questions 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8 )


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## Selena van Leeuwen

I use no medicine, no testing. I had to check on brucelosis , never heard of it, but eu is clear on it).


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Steve Estrada said:


> Is anyone familiar with giving antibiotics for seven to ten days prior to mating to destroy (obviously) any potential problems? Cephlexin (sp?) was recommended by a very knowledgeable person in the breeding business, saying lots of breeders of different breeds do this? I'm not familiar with this and would be interested in some qualified expertise.:-o


An old school vet can do a vaginal smear and tell you whether you have an overgrowth of bacteria. One of the best things I ever learned to do was my own smears. New school suff is to do a vaginal culture and senstivity. It will tell you what you have in terms of bacteria and what antibiotic is effective. There for awhile mycoplasma was a big issue in several breeds. You do want to stay away from Baytril. Probably want to do a culture/sensitivity about a month before they are due in. Back when I was doing this stuff, it took a few weeks for growing mycoplasma. I'd rather do a culture/sensitivity than just put them on an antibiotic. One rule of thumb for me though--if its good for the goose, its good for the gander. 

Terrasita


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## Steve Estrada

Thanks, I'm pretty much on the same page as Maren. For me & my animals less is best. I thought I was missing something. As a professional I find I'm always debunking what someone heard from a breeder or someone whose great grandfather trained dogs.  I'm almost 67 & hardly ever get sick, now I problay will LOL! Hate all that stuff....thanks that's why I enjoy this forum.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Connie Sutherland said:


> Interestingly, I was reading something recently where this came up:
> 
> http://www.dobermann-review.com/info/breeding/canine_reproduction.htm
> (especially questions 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8 )


Did a couple of Hutchinson seminars very early on. Interesting how he has changed his emphasis. A couple of favorite sites: http://www.labbies.com/reproduction2.htm and http://www.medwelljournals.com/fulltext/?doi=javaa.2010.478.481.

He's been pretty big on Cheque Drops. I thought I heard they did re-enter the market but haven't followed this. In the beginning he was Mr. culture/sensitivity and who everyone consulted on mycoplasma. Heard of a lot of issues in GSDs where in other breeds, not an issue. I think where there is reproductive decline in some of the more overbred breeds, bacteria overgrowth or the presence of a particular bacteria is more an issue. The studies are all over the place and have suggested breed differences as relevant. I think you look for overgrowth and neutrophils at this point cytology-wise as well as other clinical signs. 

T


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## Maren Bell Jones

Steve Estrada said:


> As a professional I find I'm always debunking what someone heard from a breeder or someone whose great grandfather trained dogs.


You and me both. :-\" :lol:


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Steve Estrada said:


> As a professional I find I'm always debunking what someone heard from a breeder or someone whose great grandfather trained dogs.  .


Well, there are a lot of breeders who have debunked the vets and the studies for that matter. Experience is a good teacher. And it does vary from breed to breed as to the issues that you'll encounter. If that breeder is in your breed and dealing with your line of dogs, its worth inquiring and finding out the why of what they do. They could have a valid reason. There are some breeders that have become obsessed with intervention and in that regard I think we are weakening the dogs. The less overbred the gene pool, the more natural and less need for intervention. 

T


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## Connie Sutherland

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> ... its worth inquiring and finding out the why of what they do. They could have a valid reason. There are some breeders that have become obsessed with intervention and in that regard I think we are weakening the
> dogs. ....
> 
> T


_
"There are some breeders that have become obsessed with intervention and in that regard I think we are weakening the dogs."_



That's a good point, IMHO!


_"Putting ... bitches on antibiotics pre-breeding actually makes them more prone to infectious disease by killing normal organisms ... " _and the rest of the answer to #5 in the link I posted illustrates this point nicely.


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## Steve Estrada

I'm always open to "open" thinking & know that breeders have often been better about somethings i.e. immunizations & vitamin C which I use for my dogs & self. I've had multiple knee surgeries, old rugby player (old as long time ago I have very little arthritis (nothing I feel) & doctors ask why, 2000mg a day of C. I know there is no double blind study on it for dogs but my lines plus Vit. C I've been extremely successful that's with Rotts and DSH it's suppose to help collagen in hips & joints from my limited understanding. Also no vaginitis in my females. I also never have over immunized....


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Steve Estrada said:


> I'm always open to "open" thinking & know that breeders have often been better about somethings i.e. immunizations & vitamin C which I use for my dogs & self. I've had multiple knee surgeries, old rugby player (old as long time ago I have very little arthritis (nothing I feel) & doctors ask why, 2000mg a day of C. I know there is no double blind study on it for dogs but my lines plus Vit. C I've been extremely successful that's with Rotts and DSH it's suppose to help collagen in hips & joints from my limited understanding. Also no vaginitis in my females. I also never have over immunized....


DSH??? I'm a Vit C fan as well. Started that on the advice from the breeder I bought my first corgi from even though many would like to discount Belfield's study. I also totally changed on vaccines after attending a Jean Dodds seminar in 1998. I remember when they thought she was mad as hatter. The breeders I've networked with over the years do their damndest to consult the top repro vets out there. Dr. Hutchinson was one of the chief proponents of investigating bacteria and mycoplasm. He's been a regular to bring in for seminars and such. I think some have taken the shortcut of just doing 10 day antibiotics. I've heard of this before. I think when you are using your own dogs, you're less inclined to go test crazy. Using an outside dog or often used stud dog and you''re inclined to test. But you also need someone on board who knows how to test and interpret. In one of my breeds, elective C-sections have become the norm. I remember when we were emphasizing free whelpers. In my own dogs, I want them to cycle, breed, whelp normally. Why perpetuate reproductive problems? When, I take them in for a brucellosis, its not a big deal to also do a smear and see if the vet's opinion matches my own.

T


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## Steve Estrada

DSH=GSD Deutsche Schaeferhund=German shepherd


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Steve Estrada said:


> DSH=GSD Deutsche Schaeferhund=German shepherd


Hahahah, if you had written it out, I would have known. Haven't seen the acronym. 

T


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## Bob Scott

Thanks Steve! I was getting splinters in my fingers over that one. 8-[


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## Steve Estrada

Sorry guys acronyms are killing me too I should be more sensitive


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## Erynn Lucas

As a microbiologist I am horrified that people do this. Don't.


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