# Fearful dog



## Chris Ciampi (Dec 10, 2008)

Have some issues that I think is coming from fear not aggression. Whenever my lab mix is in the car and people or dogs are by his hair stands up and barks and gets out of control. He is from a shelter and was raised for over 6 months with dogs so I thought he should be able to get along with other dogs. He is very shy around people and I think thats why he barks and gets crazy. It's also when we are walking and he is so timid of new people. I use a prong collar but from my learnings I think when I correct him it might make it worse because he is so shy. Is that correct? 

What I'm looking for I guess cause I could keep writing forever is what do you guys think about a better collar for him, why the fearful aggression and what other tips or tricks can I use to get him more comfortable with people and flipping out in the car?  

Thanks


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Redirect his attention to something he likes for starters.


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## David Scholes (Jul 12, 2008)

I would use clicker training and reward confident behavior, gradually increasing the level of scary situations. Reward focus on you and when she ignores a previously stressful item/situation. This has worked great for me when gentling wild horses which being a prey animal are naturally much more fearful than a dog. Definitely stay away from the prong for this situation. Get the dog to look forward to a fearful situation because it will want to earn a reward for being brave.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Put him in a crate.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Put him in a crate.


isn't that going to promote fear aggression if stranger approach the crate?


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## Chris Ciampi (Dec 10, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Put him in a crate.


Great advice...Thanks :-s


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

If the dog makes you happy and is comfortable at home, keep him there. If you want a dog to go places with, get another one that enjoys it. Getting a dog is like getting a car......make sure it has the horsepower you want before you get it because you aren't going to make a Formula 1 car out of a Hyundai.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Chris Ciampi said:


> Great advice...Thanks :-s


Actually, that is good advice. A frightened dog is a dangerous dog.

Other than that, there's not much advice that can be given without seeing video. There are a lot of pitfalls in this type of rehabilitation. You could very easily make it worse. I can't safely recommend anything other than confining your dog in a crate.

This isn't a "tips" or "tricks" behavior problem. Changing to a different collar won't have a significant impact. This is a serious behavior problem that will take significant changes over a long period of time to improve, with the possibility that it is, or has become irreversible.


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## Chris Ciampi (Dec 10, 2008)

I agree its a serious issue but I know that it can be solved. I'm not just going to stop working with him and stop taking him with me, thats not fair. I need to be able to build his confidence so he is more comfortable in those situations. I got another dog that is awesome with people and would kiss a dog or person to death and that hasn't seemed to help as much as I thought. My problem is that I don't know what is causing it or where things went or are going wrong. I still have to take him to the vet and on walks so he can't just stop doing those things because he is scared.

I was just trying to figure out if anyone has dealt with that issue or knows anything that I can try to help resolve it. I'm currently using a clicker to make sure I reward positive behavior. Maybe it's just a really long process and I want results fast.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

You can do a lot to reduce the level of the problem but it is in the core nature of the dog. Having invested a lot of time in a dog that does not sound as fearful as your dog, I really don't believe you can "solve" the problem. You may want to find some help - someone who can read yours and his body language and give suggestions. It does go down the lead and your confidence with such a dog is a big part of the solution.

If you accept that and love the dog you can do a lot to make him liveable but don't ever expect him to be a social companion that you can take everywhere and trust him.

I did a lot with reducing one of my dog's comfort zone to about 10 feet, by using a clicker and rewarding him for looking at me when he saw another dog at the edge of his "zone", which started out at about 50 yards. Walking past fenced dogs is good for this because it gives you some level of control. He only had issues with other dogs, not people. When we got that close, I had to use obedience and corrections. With obedience and corrections I did get him to the point where we could walk past another dog heading towards us on the sidewalk. This took a long time.

It took a lot of time and work and I NEVER completely trusted him. The dog learned that when we walked past another dog that I would put him in a heel and I WOULD correct him severely for breaking the heel. And this is the heel where the dog is looking at you at all times, not just walking on your left-so I would correct him for breaking eye contact. Going for any walk with him was an excercise in complete awareness of my surroundings-not at all relaxing. Correcting the dog for breaking a command is different than correcting the fear aggression, which just escalates the problem.

If he is a bite risk on walks and at the vet, I would get him used to a basket muzzle - google "italian basket muzzle". I had my dog like this trained to it for the vet as he had a problem with perianal fistulas and was a bit dicey about other people messing with his rear end. 

He was ok in the house and fine with people coming in. Fortunately I had a fenced backyard and focused my energy on my other dogs; he was just a pet [because of his temperament]


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Chris Ciampi said:


> I agree its a serious issue but I know that it can be solved. I'm not just going to stop working with him and stop taking him with me, thats not fair. I need to be able to build his confidence so he is more comfortable in those situations.


So what you are saying is that he is going to act like he likes it so you feel good?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: 
I agree its a serious issue but I know that it can be solved

OK, what makes you so sure ??? Why not just get him a nice crate for when he is in the car. 

The fair thing is a human thing and not a dog thing. If he is freaking out so bad that you felt a need to ask about it here, then the dog probably wants to stay home, and YOU want him to go with.

Plus what Don said.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I think you need some hands on help. Your post indicates that you may be kind of new to doggiedom or at least dealing with dogs that may have issues. #1 you can't assume that since he spent 6 months in a shelter with dogs that the experience was positive and therefore he should be dog friendly. He could have had six months of getting the crap beat out of him. Negative experiences can cause life long fear issues. #2, the in the car stuff is easily solved by a crate. #3, why the prong collar to correct a dog for shyness. Is he lunging for people or just doesn't have any confidence to engage them. Still, as you've figured out, a prong collar is not the way to go. Try a nice nylon buckle collar. But, its not about the collar. You have to look at your relationship with the dog. I raise my dogs NOT to engage other dogs outside of their pack. But that said, when you select for certain characteristics, you don't really run into problems like this and you also know enough not to create them and make them worse. The rescues I've had which really is what you have, I've rehabbed to a point and mostly to be comfy in the pack around the house and that took over a year with one [puppy mill princess that was 8.5 years old]. They didn't HAVE to go on walks and encounter things that they were terrified of. It takes TIME and a lot of patience and that doesn't mean disregard the dog's signals. Rescues are hard because they have a window of experiences that you know nothing about. People think that they can flood and desensitize but that can just make it worse. You need someone there to read the dog and help figure him out. 

The other dog isn't going to teach the dog to be confident around dogs and strange people. The most you can do with a dog that is fearful is to establish that you are the leader and that you will keep him safe; which may mean keep other dogs and people out of his space. Suzanne Clothier is good for saying "LISTEN to what the dog is trying to tell you." 

I would forget about the walks and other people and dogs. First you have to bond with the dog and get him to trust your leadership. Inflicting pain is not a way to deal with fear. I would keep this pooch at home and first work on marker based obedience training with the basics---walking on a loose lead, sit, down, stays, etc. With all this build a good solid attention command. Once this is all solid, then embark upon out and about in public and figure out what the dog's comfortable distance is and at that distance, get his attention on you and give him something he likes [food, toy, whatever], like Jerry and a couple of others suggested. But really, after you've done a program like this and doggie doesn't improve and he's telling you that he just can't deal, listen. Take the other pooch out for the walks and play with this one at home.

Terrasita


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

> I agree its a serious issue but I know that it can be solved.


Don't be too sure of that. I've dumped hundreds of hours and years of my life into rescue dogs that ended up euthanized anyway. Behaviors like you describe are often genetic in nature, sometimes irreverisble and sometimes even unmanageable.



> I'm not just going to stop working with him and stop taking him with me, thats not fair.


Really? So stressing out the dog to give you warm fuzzy feelings is fair? Stress is very taxing on your dog's body. Be kind and leave him home, confined. (and BTW - life is not fair. pack order is not fair. fair is not a part of dog training.)



> I need to be able to build his confidence so he is more comfortable in those situations.


You can't build his confidence. He'll have to build his own confidence - with your leadership.



> My problem is that I don't know what is causing it or where things went or are going wrong.


Nope. People put to much emphasis into this. The reason why really doesn't matter. It can help a trainer project a timeline for rehabilitation, but other than that, is useless



> I'm currently using a clicker to make sure I reward positive behavior. [/uote]
> 
> I am interested in EXACTLY how you are using the clicker. Can you explain and/or link to video?
> 
> ...


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Anne Vaini said:


> (and BTW - life is not fair. pack order is not fair. fair is not a part of dog training.)


I think you mean "not fair" in the context that "fair" was defined by the OP, right? Training should be "fair" when fair is defined as: the consequences fit the action, or even-handedness (which of course is subject to personal interpretation).


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Konnie Hein said:


> I think you mean "not fair" in the context that "fair" was defined by the OP, right? Training should be "fair" when fair is defined as: the consequences fit the action, or even-handedness (which of course is subject to personal interpretation).


Good call Konnie.  What I meant in this context is that not all dogs are treated equal.

I had three dogs at my house on Wednesday. The puppy was loose and romping around. My adult dog was on a down stay. The guest dog (with insecure dominant and dog-aggression issues) was on a prong collar and getting hard corrections for making eye contact with the other dogs or refusing obedience.

Was that mean or unfair? Only in human terms.

That dog was more relaxed and cheerful than I had ever seen her before. 

The unequality appeared unfair in human terms, but was correct for the dog.

Dog training is fair in the sense Konnie mentioned. Consequence fits action. The dog isn't corrected for a behavior not taught to fluency.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

I figured that was what you meant!


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## Chris Ciampi (Dec 10, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote:
> I agree its a serious issue but I know that it can be solved
> 
> OK, what makes you so sure ??? Why not just get him a nice crate for when he is in the car.
> ...


Good point. I think that its more me that wants him to be with me.


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## Chris Ciampi (Dec 10, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I think you need some hands on help. Your post indicates that you may be kind of new to doggiedom or at least dealing with dogs that may have issues. #1 you can't assume that since he spent 6 months in a shelter with dogs that the experience was positive and therefore he should be dog friendly. He could have had six months of getting the crap beat out of him. Negative experiences can cause life long fear issues.


The only reason I said that is because I know the people at the shelter and my brother works there. I know how they treat the dogs but not how the dogs treat each other, which could be part of the issue.


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## Chris Ciampi (Dec 10, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I think you need some hands on help. Your post indicates that you may be kind of new to doggiedom or at least dealing with dogs that may have issues. #1 you can't assume that since he spent 6 months in a shelter with dogs that the experience was positive and therefore he should be dog friendly. He could have had six months of getting the crap beat out of him. Negative experiences can cause life long fear issues. #2, the in the car stuff is easily solved by a crate. #3, why the prong collar to correct a dog for shyness. Is he lunging for people or just doesn't have any confidence to engage them. Still, as you've figured out, a prong collar is not the way to go. Try a nice nylon buckle collar. But, its not about the collar. You have to look at your relationship with the dog. I raise my dogs NOT to engage other dogs outside of their pack. But that said, when you select for certain characteristics, you don't really run into problems like this and you also know enough not to create them and make them worse. The rescues I've had which really is what you have, I've rehabbed to a point and mostly to be comfy in the pack around the house and that took over a year with one [puppy mill princess that was 8.5 years old]. They didn't HAVE to go on walks and encounter things that they were terrified of. It takes TIME and a lot of patience and that doesn't mean disregard the dog's signals. Rescues are hard because they have a window of experiences that you know nothing about. People think that they can flood and desensitize but that can just make it worse. You need someone there to read the dog and help figure him out.
> 
> The other dog isn't going to teach the dog to be confident around dogs and strange people. The most you can do with a dog that is fearful is to establish that you are the leader and that you will keep him safe; which may mean keep other dogs and people out of his space. Suzanne Clothier is good for saying "LISTEN to what the dog is trying to tell you."
> 
> ...


Thanks. we have been working on focus and building his attention with me in the house and doing more of that He also just doesn't engage people and will try to hide behind me or just bark. I will continue to work with him and like others have suggested that he might just be like that and all I can do is realize that and try to make him hapy instead of making me happy.


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## Chris Ciampi (Dec 10, 2008)

> I'm currently using a clicker to make sure I reward positive behavior. [/uote]
> 
> I am interested in EXACTLY how you are using the clicker. Can you explain and/or link to video?
> 
> ...


Thanks for the advice. I think a lof of it as I have said is more me and I the whole TV and books that are like change your dog forever in 30 minute junk that is all around. Really thats not he case. Seems like you have spent lots of time trying to fix issues that might never be fixed.

For the clicker it tougher now becuase of the cold we don't encouter lots of people walking or dogs out. What I would do is once he see's the object that makes him nervous, he sits and will focus on me for about 10seconds and when he does I will click and reward. If he breaks his focus we will try it again for a shorter time period and than click and reward. Thats how I learned with it from a book that I was reading and some research on the internet.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Are you doing that as desensitzation or flooding?

What is the dog doing exactly when you click? Tail, ears, posture, mouth? What are you clicking?

What happens if the dog doesn't focus on you?

What happens if the dog doesn't focus on you and makes a fear or aggression display?


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## Julie Kinsey (Feb 10, 2008)

Hi Chris,

You might also want to do some research on SATS Bridge and Target training. It is different from clicker training and I've had great success with fearful dogs using these methods. It has several components, but for your dog (and what I've read about him here), we would focus on naming and conditioned relaxation. We start naming body parts (which starts language skills) and then apply this concept to objects, people, other animals, etc. This knowledge and familiarity gives confidence to the dog and can greatly expand their world.

There is a lot of information available, free tutorials, and Kayce is quite generous with her time. I would also be happy to answer questions or help coach you.

Julie K


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Julie Kinsey said:


> Hi Chris,
> 
> You might also want to do some research on SATS Bridge and Target training. It is different from clicker training and I've had great success with fearful dogs using these methods. It has several components, but for your dog (and what I've read about him here), we would focus on naming and conditioned relaxation. We start naming body parts (which starts language skills) and then apply this concept to objects, people, other animals, etc. This knowledge and familiarity gives confidence to the dog and can greatly expand their world.
> 
> ...


One of the things I like about SATS (correct me if I'm wrong) is teaching the dog to investigate or interact with the object it is afraid of. This can be done with clicker training too. 

I've given SATS a good go, but apparently I'm clueless (or the dogs are). I bought a rat this week to try it with! :lol:


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## Julie Kinsey (Feb 10, 2008)

Anne Vaini said:


> One of the things I like about SATS (correct me if I'm wrong) is teaching the dog to investigate or interact with the object it is afraid of. This can be done with clicker training too.
> 
> I've given SATS a good go, but apparently I'm clueless (or the dogs are). I bought a rat this week to try it with! :lol:


That's not a bad idea, Anne, don't know if you were serious or not, but I can tell you, I've learned a lot about SATS and teaching in general by working with other species. I hope you will use Kayce's beautifully written tutorials on teaching the bridges and the targets to your rat; they are not conditioned the same as other markers.

The results are vastly different. SATS has many components, they are integrated; and it takes people some time to put it all together and to start applying it. 

Julie Kinsey


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Julie Kinsey said:


> That's not a bad idea, Anne, don't know if you were serious or not, but I can tell you, I've learned a lot about SATS and teaching in general by working with other species. I hope you will use Kayce's beautifully written tutorials on teaching the bridges and the targets to your rat; they are not conditioned the same as other markers.
> 
> The results are vastly different. SATS has many components, they are integrated; and it takes people some time to put it all together and to start applying it.
> 
> Julie Kinsey


The rat won't take food from my hand, so SATS it is. I did some recall with the rat. It seems to like to be handled. I tapped my finger on the floor for an IB and clicked for TB. I'm fairly certain it had no effect, but it was interesting that if she could smell me, she came right over.

I learned SO MUCH about clicker training when I trained a cat. :lol:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

You just cannot fix bad genetics. It is hard to have a dog like that, I have had people bring these dogs to me in the past, and it is just what the dog is. I asked them where the dog was most comfortable, and it was in it's own home, and in it's own yard. I told them to just spend quality time there, and to come to training without the dog. I had plenty that they could work with and that they could figure out what they were doing with. They had some talent.

The dog did well in it's OB, and they were happy to have figured out that this was just what the dog was. Last I heard from them, the dog knew about thirty different tricks. Wished I would have asked for a video.


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## deidre muccio (May 3, 2008)

Oh boy, I'm new on the forum and see quite a range of advice being given here.
I was thinking "I'm with you, Chris" when I read in an older post you wrote that you were not going to retire your dog to a crate, your home and a back yard alone. I applaud your goal of wanting to make him (was he a he or she?)a part of your everyday life in a very comprehensive, intimate way.
I'm not a member of the avoid or distract an animal from the things it most fears or is aggressive towards. Starting with safety as the first rule of thumb, building tolerances to the kinds of things mentioned,I dare say, is best done with the use of CYCLES! As Julie K says, naming is a powerful tool too, as is teaching conditioned relaxation. 
I'm lucky to have come to the training world through the use of guide dogs who were turned over to me already well ahead of the game. One was trained using some "compulsion" methods and my most recent guide who died in late October, was trained without the use of compulsion, at least not in the day to day though leash corrections were utilized for compliance with fully prooffed behaviors. Btw both dogs were superbly happy and vigorous dogs, beautifully prepared for a life out in the big wide world with me. Still, I came home with dogs who needed some bugs worked out, things like being mouthy enough to pierce a nostril, jump at kid's faces bruising them, leap across my body in an attempt to play with other dogs or rush me across an intersection to get to another dog. 
Aspiring to the highest of standards, and knowing full well that these dogs were taking advantage of my lack of savvy, I chanced upon bridge and target, now SATS, which has proved invaluable in teaching me much about the nuts and bolts of "how to train," and it allowed me to do this in the most passionate way, so to speak. I solved problems that no leash correction or counterconditioning did much to change and it allowed me to train for many things I had not even entertained some 13 years earlier when I first started working dogs.
To my way of thinking, all those who want their dogs at their side in the day to day, might do much the same to relate to and train their dogs as I might for my particular purposes as a blind individual. I need a high degree of cooperativeness and interest in my needs and my world, and dog's seem to be willing to be there withh us on that journey. 
I'm spoiled, my dogs have almost always been there with me every minute of the day, day in and day out. I give great creedence to what they have to offer me in terms of their own awarenesses, their delights, their super senses, often thinking of many of those built in traits as way ahead of our own, at least in ways that we differ.
thourh


Anne Vaini said:


> One of the things I like about SATS (correct me if I'm wrong) is teaching the dog to investigate or interact with the object it is afraid of. This can be done with clicker training too.
> 
> I've given SATS a good go, but apparently I'm clueless (or the dogs are). I bought a rat this week to try it with! :lol:


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## deidre muccio (May 3, 2008)

I'm sure that we'd all agree that dogs are not machines. You got to get down and deep. 
I've seen areas of various other forums that have a wealth of information on very comprehensive aspects of developing a bond, a relationship, mutual respect, trust, etc. That's what it's all about as far as I am concerned. There are no shortcuts in that department.
If a single human can teach cows their names and get them to eagerly line up for blood draws, and if another single human can teach seals to line up and wait their turn to perform a water ballet or some other routine, hardly to be thought of as a routine, and if there are trainers out there who have worked with seals that spontaneously alert to danger and have the desire to communicate in such synergistic ways, I'd say there is every chance in the world to harness the power and fears and agressions of one wayward animal not yet adjusted to our human ways and human dominated world, and he or she is well worth that effort.
Julie can you point me to the tutorials you speak of?


Julie Kinsey said:


> That's not a bad idea, Anne, don't know if you were serious or not, but I can tell you, I've learned a lot about SATS and teaching in general by working with other species. I hope you will use Kayce's beautifully written tutorials on teaching the bridges and the targets to your rat; they are not conditioned the same as other markers.
> 
> The results are vastly different. SATS has many components, they are integrated; and it takes people some time to put it all together and to start applying it.
> 
> Julie Kinsey


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## Julie Kinsey (Feb 10, 2008)

Deidre,

The tutorial files are on Kayce's Synalia website, and both email lists associated with it, listed there.

Great to see you writing here,

Julie Kinsey


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## deidre muccio (May 3, 2008)

*learning more/resources*

Yes, and those lists (yahoogroups) associated with Synalia are of very high caliber as is some info on 
'SATS I found on PBF. Not for the short-sighted or weak of heart.


deidre muccio said:


> I'm sure that we'd all agree that dogs are not machines. You got to get down and deep.
> I've seen areas of various other forums that have a wealth of information on very comprehensive aspects of developing a bond, a relationship, mutual respect, trust, etc. That's what it's all about as far as I am concerned. There are no shortcuts in that department.
> If a single human can teach cows their names and get them to eagerly line up for blood draws, and if another single human can teach seals to line up and wait their turn to perform a water ballet or some other routine, hardly to be thought of as a routine, and if there are trainers out there who have worked with seals that spontaneously alert to danger and have the desire to communicate in such synergistic ways, I'd say there is every chance in the world to harness the power and fears and agressions of one wayward animal not yet adjusted to our human ways and human dominated world, and he or she is well worth that effort.
> Julie can you point me to the tutorials you speak of?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: I'm lucky to have come to the training world through the use of guide dogs who were turned over to me already well ahead of the game. One was trained using some "compulsion" methods and my most recent guide who died in late October, was trained without the use of compulsion, at least not in the day to day though leash corrections were utilized for compliance with fully prooffed behaviors. Btw both dogs were superbly happy and vigorous dogs, beautifully prepared for a life out in the big wide world with me. Still, I came home with dogs who needed some bugs worked out, things like being mouthy enough to pierce a nostril, jump at kid's faces bruising them, leap across my body in an attempt to play with other dogs or rush me across an intersection to get to another dog. 

So you do not like compulsion, and you used to have guide dogs that didn't make it in the program.

So how are you equating this with fear ?? 
So what happens when your dogs cannot be with you every minute of the day ???
How are you going to make a dog less miserable ???


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Anne, slightly off topic (or maybe not...), but just curious if you've had rats before? I find they take at least a week or two to get used to their surroundings if they were an average unsocialized pet store rat to take food from me. Then maybe another one to two weeks so when I opened the cage, they'd come to me for the food. I may start clicker training one of my males. He's actually from the local shelter, so I don't know how old he is, but he's about the best rat of over a dozen I've had. I think I've also found a good female for him too as I'm going to start breeding them for both pets and snake food. Keep us posted on the rat training. :smile:


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## deidre muccio (May 3, 2008)

J: So you do not like compulsion, and you used to have guide dogs that didn't make it in the program.
D: My 3 dogs were graduated from a particular program. Unfortunately the trainers gave me more credit than was due me at the time to work the bugs out. It was hard work and I'd wished they'd done that job for me!

I didn't say that I objected to compulsion training though some trainers at the particular school I got all my dogs from did say they were glad those days were over. 

I suggested that my previous guides had been trained that way and I noted no ill effect to tell the truth. They were quite lively and knew the ropes as far as the technical guide work was concerned. What I can say is that I found other methods to change their minds about certain out of control behaviors that gave me the results I wanted and they didn't involve a leash correction. A simple interrupt for instance did far more than any leash correction ever did. 


I'm not averse to using a leash correction for a quick get back on track thing if a particular dog forgets himself momentarily and is pushing their luck with ignoring me or trying to drag me around. If it's a real training issue then time has to be put into solving the problem for the long term. This didn't happen with my guides after let's say anywhere from 2 to 5 months home with them. That's not to say that the relationship and work together didn't continue to get better and better over time as well... only that within 6 months of getting a new guide, things start to get real real smooth.

Truth too is that I feel that a dog's work is no better than it's trainer or handler's skills are , and I clearrly am no pro. What's that common lingo, "a work in progress." Uggghh.

J: So how are you equating this with fear ?? 

I was responding to Chris's saying that she was not going to isolate her dog but rather attempt to help it adjust to the different surroundings she hoped to travel out to with the dog. I applaud that effort.
Doing perception modification work using cycles for instance whether they be utilized to build a tolerance of having other dogs in close proximity, or any nummber of other things that might stress or over excite is just one tool for helping an animal learn to cope and control it's emotions, so to speak. There are other tools as well...

J: So what happens when your dogs cannot be with you every minute of the day ???

No problem. It's not slavish devotion or dependency I'm looking for. They can manage themselves quite easily if left alone. Thing is why leave them at home when they have the energy and ability to be out in the world working or enjoying a view of Lake Champlain or passersby in front of a busy cafe? Maybe this is a projection on my part since I don't like sitting around much myself.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

The dog does not have emotional baggage to work out, it has a genetic problem and is uncomfortable with new surroundings.

I have never seen a dog get over this, at best it learns to deal with it's constant fear. I do not see why you would insist that your dog go through this so you can feel better.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Anne, slightly off topic (or maybe not...), but just curious if you've had rats before? I find they take at least a week or two to get used to their surroundings if they were an average unsocialized pet store rat to take food from me. Then maybe another one to two weeks so when I opened the cage, they'd come to me for the food. I may start clicker training one of my males. He's actually from the local shelter, so I don't know how old he is, but he's about the best rat of over a dozen I've had. I think I've also found a good female for him too as I'm going to start breeding them for both pets and snake food. Keep us posted on the rat training. :smile:


I haven't had a rat before. My brother did the rat-maze experiment for a science fair project, so I have a little background on them.

I picked the most human-social of the young rats. After about 2 weeks, she seems to want to be handled. I think that will end up being my motivator because she doesn't want food from my hand. So I will learn to train without food (see my other thread)! :lol:

As far as the fearful dog, again, I'm with Jeff. Projection and transference have no place in dog training.


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## deidre muccio (May 3, 2008)

Jeff wrote: You just cannot fix bad genetics. It is hard to have a dog like that, I have had people bring these dogs to me in the past, and it is just what the dog
is. I asked them where the dog was most comfortable, and it was in it's own home, and in it's own yard. I told them to just spend quality time there, and
to come to training without the dog. I had plenty that they could work with and that they could figure out what they were doing with. They had some talent.

D: I just reread this and thought it was a grand start for the party consulting you. It's definitely true that people need coaching before they can effectively coach their own animals.
I'd like to hear a follow up on how happy this dog is at home and how much he or she is begging to do something! Hey, if the dog is happy at home with his people and is happy performing tricks as you suggest, then like you, I'd count it a success!

Jeff: The dog did well in it's OB, and they were happy to have figured out that this was just what the dog was. Last I heard from them, the dog knew about thirty
different tricks. 

D: I guess where I'm coming from is that a dog's life can go beyond performing tricks. I don't say that as insult to your efforts. Learning is learning and vital to utilizing that circuitry. If such a dog is tht proficient and good at learning new things, why not slowly graduate that animal into new environments? Just a thought, not a prescription.


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## deidre muccio (May 3, 2008)

Hmmmm? I must be a bit dense here, I'm not sure which emotions and which things I'm suggesting a dog be forced to do.
When I say get control of it's emotions, yes I guess I mean that. Behavior, emotions, I'm not distinguishing between the two. I wonder what you call it when a dog learns to calm itself or learns something new? Is that catagorized as a sole function of genetics?

I'd better go back and look at the original post from Chris.


Jeff Oehlsen said:


> The dog does not have emotional baggage to work out, it has a genetic problem and is uncomfortable with new surroundings.
> 
> I have never seen a dog get over this, at best it learns to deal with it's constant fear. I do not see why you would insist that your dog go through this so you can feel better.


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## deidre muccio (May 3, 2008)

I knew someone would jump on that one--projection! It was a joke.
Obviously a dog bred and trained to work, as in doing guide work, is going to want to work and needs to work.
Probably any dog can have that good a life.
Who said anything about throwing a dog into stressful or frightening environments? I mentioned cycles as tools for building tolerances and self-control.
I find the thing most lacking in some professional trainers work is the perception modification aspect of it. 
There are many many successes that can be related as to rehabbing fearful dogs. It may not happen overnight but what is a few months investment or a year of concerted effort in light of a lifetime?
If anyone is interested I can describe a protocol that might well not seem like insanity.


Anne Vaini said:


> I haven't had a rat before. My brother did the rat-maze experiment for a science fair project, so I have a little background on them.
> 
> I picked the most human-social of the young rats. After about 2 weeks, she seems to want to be handled. I think that will end up being my motivator because she doesn't want food from my hand. So I will learn to train without food (see my other thread)! :lol:
> 
> As far as the fearful dog, again, I'm with Jeff. Projection and transference have no place in dog training.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

There are several threads here describing desensitizing and counter-conditioning of fearful dogs, in detail, that don't sound like insanity to me. 

I have some experience with this. :lol:

One thing I have learned (a hard learn for me) is that genetic fear and learned fear are very different to work with, and that if the dog's fearful disposition is genetic, then what most of us would consider to be rehabbing isn't gonna happen, IMHO. Such a dog can often live comfortably, but to subject him/her to the protocols that can benefit a dog with more learned than genetic fear is no favor to the dog.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Or, better put, 60-70,000 dogs die every year, and this is the one people will spend time trying to fix to satisfy some weird urge ???

I have known too many good dogs that died to waste any time at all on a shitter. I know it is this guys pet and all but for ****s sake, they keep coming up with all these methods, when really, just shoot the thing and go get a dog that will be happy doing what you want.

I always love how these dogs are "great dogs" but........

Something to think about. Since when does great have a modifier ????


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Or, better put, 60-70,000 dogs die every year, and this is the one people will spend time trying to fix to satisfy some weird urge ???
> 
> I have known too many good dogs that died to waste any time at all on a shitter. I know it is this guys pet and all but for ****s sake, they keep coming up with all these methods, when really, just shoot the thing and go get a dog that will be happy doing what you want. ...


Well, it kinda depends. In this case, where the O.P. says: 


Chris Ciampi said:


> ... I'm not just going to stop working with him and stop taking him with me, thats not fair.


then this is a good answer for a genetically fearful dog:


Don Turnipseed said:


> If the dog makes you happy and is comfortable at home, keep him there. If you want a dog to go places with, get another one that enjoys it.


There are people who own genetically fearful companion dogs who do live a comfortable life around it. This does not sound like the O.P. is one of those people (or should be).


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

The fact that a born nervebag is not going to gain much benefit (if any) from all the patient and productive work that can really help a dog with learned fear --- that is indeed a hard fact to face.

I had a lucky string of successes with very fearful dogs, including one SPCA raid-seized dog who did nothing but lie in a corner and shake, making no eye contact and refusing to eat unless the room was empty. This gave me kind of a swelled head and the very wrong idea that failures with fearful dogs were just trainer failures.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Anne Vaini said:


> I haven't had a rat before. My brother did the rat-maze experiment for a science fair project, so I have a little background on them.
> 
> I picked the most human-social of the young rats. After about 2 weeks, she seems to want to be handled. I think that will end up being my motivator because she doesn't want food from my hand. So I will learn to train without food (see my other thread)! :lol:


I'd give her another few weeks before she'll take the food from your hand, but I suspect she probably will. All of my past rats but the most anti-social, even if they don't like being held much, will take food from me. One problem with clicker training with food with a rat is the size of the food item. Even a very small cut up treat is like an extra jumbo sized Milkbone and it takes them a few seconds to eat it. Not like a piece of kibble or hotdog that the dog just swallows. They also can't see very well in front of their nose, so they have a tendency to accidentally nip if your food item is small (which REALLY hurts...they put pit bulls to shame!). 

Do you have a cage mate for her? They are incredibly social and females in particular tend to get neurotic if they are kept by themselves. Here's my favorite guy Steve McQueen (named after House's rat from House) and Fawkes coming over to investigate the tasty little morsel...errr...ratty.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I'd give her another few weeks before she'll take the food from your hand, but I suspect she probably will. All of my past rats but the most anti-social, even if they don't like being held much, will take food from me. One problem with clicker training with food with a rat is the size of the food item. Even a very small cut up treat is like an extra jumbo sized Milkbone and it takes them a few seconds to eat it. Not like a piece of kibble or hotdog that the dog just swallows. They also can't see very well in front of their nose, so they have a tendency to accidentally nip if your food item is small (which REALLY hurts...they put pit bulls to shame!).
> 
> Do you have a cage mate for her? They are incredibly social and females in particular tend to get neurotic if they are kept by themselves. Here's my favorite guy Steve McQueen (named after House's rat from House) and Fawkes coming over to investigate the tasty little morsel...errr...ratty.
> 
> ...


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## deidre muccio (May 3, 2008)

I wasn't trying to be insulting or referring to anyone elses insanity but but to how some might think it insane to even attempt to help an animal cope through stressors with things like conditioned relaxation, doing cycles coupled with rest, bringing awareness to an animal's actions, reactions, observations, body parts, all things every animal could benefit from.

How did anyone here determine that the Lab mix that Chris spoke of was genetically programmed to burn out or to fire up without any hope of change? 

The dog Chris described sounds like dogs I encounter daily. They can change without throwing them into more crisis or stress. That's the point.

I'm not saying that doesn't take skill or time and to throw all medical or behavioral assessment to the wind.

Maybe Chris can tell us how she and her dog are doing these days.



Connie Sutherland said:


> There are several threads here describing desensitizing and counter-conditioning of fearful dogs, in detail, that don't sound like insanity to me.
> 
> I have some experience with this. :lol:
> 
> One thing I have learned (a hard learn for me) is that genetic fear and learned fear are very different to work with, and that if the dog's fearful disposition is genetic, then what most of us would consider to be rehabbing isn't gonna happen, IMHO. Such a dog can often live comfortably, but to subject him/her to the protocols that can benefit a dog with more learned than genetic fear is no favor to the dog.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

A couple of observations. You don't go to the shelters and rescues looking for high quality dogs IMHO. A working dog works or it doesn't. They don't live long enough to spend the first four years giving it therapy sessions since you are still going to be feeding a POS dog, from a working dog perspective, at the end of those four years. Dogs such as the one described are a liabilty to whoever has them both financially and time wise. It does not matter if the problem is genetic or environment, it is simply not worth the time that will have to be invested to still have a dog that is even marginal as a pet. Reading these posts, I tend to get the feeling that many people use these dogs for their own theraputical puroses and it has little to do with the dog. 
Don't get me wrong, some great dogs have some issues that do not affect it's ability to do a job and do it well. These are still working dogs and I can see spending the time to keep such a dog straight. There is a big difference. Possibly a forum is in order for those that want to carry on in depth discussions of various therapy styles for dogs that will never be working dogs no matter how many years are put into it. Call it "Therapy Pairs" (meaning the owner and the dog). :-({|= :-({|= :-({|=


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

deidre muccio said:


> ... How did anyone here determine that the Lab mix that Chris spoke of was genetically programmed to burn out or to fire up without any hope of change? .... Maybe Chris can tell us how she and her dog are doing these days.


I didn't determine that. QUOTE: * if* the dog's fearful disposition is genetic ... END

I was saying (I thought pretty clearly, but I'm old) that despite Chris's (and my own one-time) belief that _"I *know* I can fix this,"_ there are dogs about whom that is just not the case. I think that it's no favor to the dog to have that incorrect mindset if all evidence is to the contrary.

I would love to hear how the dog is doing too.


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## deidre muccio (May 3, 2008)

Did I miss something? Which dog and person are you referring to here?
Did Chris say she wanted this dog trained to do service or therapy work? Have I confused several different threads?

A shelter wouldn't be my choice of place to get a dog I was going to train to do service work either. Often there's a whole lot of work up front to work through things like separation anxiety, etc 

4 years of therapy sessions? I've seen some pretty hard core dogs turn around in less than 1 year when in the right hands. Also some guide dogs, for ex, can do great work for a good solid 8 years and some though limited in what they can no longer comfortably do such as jump into a high vehicle or walk on slick surfaces can be out working in some capacity for a few more than that! 

lest anyone think me some kind of slave driver, I wouldn't do anything with a working dog that was no longer comfortable or enjoyable for the dog. 

I am very devoted to my animals and it is not for my own convenience. It's a huge responsibility caring for a working dog, making sure it is happy, healthy, given quality mental stimulation and physical exercise. The last thing I'd be looking for in a dog would be to serve as an emotional mop. 

There is such a thing as true integrity when speaking of such partnerships.

QUOTE: _looking for high quality dogs IMHO. A working dog works or it doesn't. They don't live long enough to spend the first four years giving it therapy sessions since you are still going to be feeding a POS dog, from a working dog perspective, at the end of those four years. Dogs such as the one described are a liabilty to whoever has them both financially and time wise. It does not matter if the problem is genetic or environment, it is simply not worth the time that will have to be invested to still have a dog that is even marginal as a pet. Reading these posts, I tend to get the feeling that many people use these dogs for their own theraputical puroses and it has little to do with the dog. 
Don't get me wrong, some great dogs have some issues that do not affect it's ability to do a job and do it well. These are still working dogs and I can see spending the time to keep such a dog straight. There is a big difference. Possibly a forum is in order for those that want to carry on in depth discussions of various therapy styles for dogs that will never be working dogs no matter how many years are put into it. Call it "Therapy Pairs" (meaning the owner and the dog). _
END QUOTE


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Just a gentle reminder that the name of the board is "Working Dog Forum."

So unless someone states otherwise, the general assumption is that the threads are about working dogs.

I'm not sure anymore which posts here refer to working dogs and which do not, so I thought I'd mention that, not in response to any particular post.

There ARE threads about other dogs, yes, but those are the ones that need up-front clarification.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

What about working rats? :wink: Just kidding, I'll take it to PM. :mrgreen:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> What about working rats? :wink: Just kidding, I'll take it to PM. :mrgreen:


I don't know .... working rats sounds like a nice section to add ...... with its own member bio part ..... :lol: :lol:

Admin? Whaddaya think?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: It does not matter if the problem is genetic or environment, it is simply not worth the time that will have to be invested to still have a dog that is even marginal as a pet.

This should be mandatory reading before posting here. LOL


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: It does not matter if the problem is genetic or environment, it is simply not worth the time that will have to be invested to still have a dog that is even marginal as a pet.
> 
> This should be mandatory reading before posting here. LOL


Sometimes someone is being paid for that time. Sometimes the owner, for whatever reason, wants to invest that time/money in a dog with learned fears. Just sayin' ......

"Worth it" is an individual judgment call.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

First, I did not mean for anyone to take the post personally as it targeted no one in particular so there is no need to think the "observations" were directed at any individual. 
The thread was about one dog that has problems that came from a shelter. It must have been obvious that the dog was far less than solid from the beginning. Why buy the dog in the first place? Get a dog that doesn't have the baggage that "wants" to go places with it's owner. I have 3 ex wives that thought they would change me and they are ex's. Dogs are the same. What you see is what you are getting. 

Connie, I may need some clarification. The boad is the working dog forum. I am assuming that referes to dogs solid enough to perform a working function. Or, does it mean the owner is working dogs to make them into something they are not through therapy?

Maybe it is just me. I am not going to waste my time on a dog that does not show me he/she has the makings to do what I want them to do. I find someone that can live with the dog the way he is but it isn't going to be me wasting my time when there is so many dogs with promise available.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Sometimes someone is being paid for that time.

And there lies the problem. An entire sub culture of dog sc.... trainers feeding off the bottom. Owners shopping for opinions and then paying someone to make them feel good about their mistake.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> .... Connie, I may need some clarification. The boad is the working dog forum. I am assuming that referes to dogs solid enough to perform a working function.


This is what I was trying to point out.

Yes. Unless there's immediate upfront clarification, I think that we all assume that we are discussing "dogs solid enough to perform a working function."


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Sometimes someone is being paid for that time.
> 
> And there lies the problem. An entire sub culture of dog sc.... trainers feeding off the bottom. Owners shopping for opinions and then paying someone to make them feel good about their mistake.


Also unfortunate but true.


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## Chris Ciampi (Dec 10, 2008)

I haven't been on the site in weeks and I come on today and have a ton of posts to read. I didn't think that this would get so in depth and lengthy discussion.

Thanks for all the advice and those that have responsded with different ideas or suggestions. :smile: 

As for the dog. He is doing ok, getting much better with people and haven't really taken him on car rides that often. Although I do still want to see (whether I'm right wrong or just stubborn) what I can accomplish with him from a training standpoint. I don't feel that its genetic, I feel that it is more learned but I'm not educated enough to comment and I don't know if anyone is. Bottom line is that those are my thoughts and I can't say that he will be fixed or get better but thats who I am and what I want to do.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Sometimes I wonder if individuals that post a question on this board and receive replies from others who have been involved with dogs for many years and are influenced too heavily by the advice.

For example I will use this and the topic about the overbite, when you kinda sit back and listen to the advice given, I wonder if somebody might say * screw it, this dog is a peice o shit* and get rid of the dog, even though the dog might be perfectly acceptable for what they want to do right now and could learn alot in the process.

I'm not saying the advice is bad or these members will take it to heart, but there are people out there that will listen and act on the advice they are given.

Just a thought.


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

Dammit' I'm with Jeff again on everything but that's for me if the dog was mine. This is because I've run the length of such a journey before. If another person feels that it's worth the investment of time and effort then I applaud their effort. Also it's hard to make a good call on what's going on without seeing it's not fair to write off the dog online.

Chris, I would not use a prong collar. If it's really fear you can't correct the dog into not feeling it and a prong collar is for corrections. You can make the dog not attack with corrections but you could also possibly turn the dog into a shaking quivering wreck in those situations. I believe obedience goes a long way and I mean obedience using compulsion all the way or at least in the end. You do the work somewhere else and when the dog is clear on the exercises you can transfer them to the car. You can correct the dog for breaking a down stay and you can have the dog do a down stay in the car. BTW a car provokes aggression in many dogs. They feel that they can't escape so they lash out at a perceived threat. I find it hard to believe that the dog doesn't exhibit this behavior in other situations such as simply being on leash in public. If this is indeed the case and the behavior is restricted to the car I'd say there's a good chance of rehabilitation. I would practice down stays in the car until the dog takes on the color of the upholstery. Still after all that the dog may only control itself when you're around.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Chris Ciampi said:


> I haven't been on the site in weeks and I come on today and have a ton of posts to read. I didn't think that this would get so in depth and lengthy discussion.
> 
> Thanks for all the advice and those that have responsded with different ideas or suggestions. :smile:
> 
> As for the dog. He is doing ok, getting much better with people and haven't really taken him on car rides that often. Although I do still want to see (whether I'm right wrong or just stubborn) what I can accomplish with him from a training standpoint. I don't feel that its genetic, I feel that it is more learned but I'm not educated enough to comment and I don't know if anyone is. Bottom line is that those are my thoughts and I can't say that he will be fixed or get better but thats who I am and what I want to do.


There's nothing wrong with that! You'll laugh and love and learn and cry. I've done the same. I don't think I would do it again, but what I learned from working with a dog with serious issues for a year is invaluable. In the end, I decided to have her euthanized. I don't regret it at all, but I miss her dearly.

If you want to try everything there is, I'll share what I know, but again, I need to see video of the dog to see the exact behaviors. 

KEEP HER SAFE while you work with her.


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## Chris Ciampi (Dec 10, 2008)

Emilio Rodriguez said:


> Dammit' I'm with Jeff again on everything but that's for me if the dog was mine. This is because I've run the length of such a journey before. If another person feels that it's worth the investment of time and effort then I applaud their effort. Also it's hard to make a good call on what's going on without seeing it's not fair to write off the dog online.
> 
> Chris, I would not use a prong collar. If it's really fear you can't correct the dog into not feeling it and a prong collar is for corrections. You can make the dog not attack with corrections but you could also possibly turn the dog into a shaking quivering wreck in those situations. I believe obedience goes a long way and I mean obedience using compulsion all the way or at least in the end. You do the work somewhere else and when the dog is clear on the exercises you can transfer them to the car. You can correct the dog for breaking a down stay and you can have the dog do a down stay in the car. BTW a car provokes aggression in many dogs. They feel that they can't escape so they lash out at a perceived threat. I find it hard to believe that the dog doesn't exhibit this behavior in other situations such as simply being on leash in public. If this is indeed the case and the behavior is restricted to the car I'd say there's a good chance of rehabilitation. I would practice down stays in the car until the dog takes on the color of the upholstery. Still after all that the dog may only control itself when you're around.


Thanks and I will work on some of those things. I don't thnk I will work with the prong just try to use more positive methods with him.


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## Chris Ciampi (Dec 10, 2008)

Anne Vaini said:


> There's nothing wrong with that! You'll laugh and love and learn and cry. I've done the same. I don't think I would do it again, but what I learned from working with a dog with serious issues for a year is invaluable. In the end, I decided to have her euthanized. I don't regret it at all, but I miss her dearly.
> 
> If you want to try everything there is, I'll share what I know, but again, I need to see video of the dog to see the exact behaviors.
> 
> KEEP HER SAFE while you work with her.


 
I agree. I know in the future that I will be more selective in my dog and knowing what i know now, I wouldn't have done that. I will get a vid soon and let you take a look at it. Hopefully some of the more experienced people from the site can help.


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