# Puppy development variation



## Bernt Lundby (Mar 27, 2009)

Mal developmental stages or sex differences? Here is a bit of a rant and probably some stupid questions:

I have a 4 month old female pup from Joefarm being trained for mondioring. So far a very good mondioring prospect builds bite naturally, silent, trusting of the decoys, unafraid of stick, a chain of plastic bottles etc). She is big already weighing 44 pounds at 17 weeks, and good with other dogs and pups. She had some food defence at 8 weeks, but has understood that is not acceptable now. She is a terror biting me on the ankles and arms when frustrated awaiting reward. Compared to my old male, she is much more persistent when biting me, bites harder (and has a strong prefrence for my arm instead of toys, harder to redirect). 

She has been trained in bite work (harness and pup sleeve) since 10 weeks age. Knows sit, down, here, and has started training on the sendaway. Everything is done positively (using clicker, food, play).

At week 17 (around the time of loosing her puppy teeth) has started to be more aware of her surroundings, walking her late in the evening she is more tense and once in a while a bit apprehensive (shackels, growling, barking). This behavior is usually directed toward single people appearing at a distance. She wants to move forward, but once jumped up on me repeatedly (something I ignored and continued walking). She is social and apporaches strangers with no visible reservation up close (ears back, low head, tail up). Reactions don't last long but are pretty strong. Tail is never tucked (except when submitting to dominant adults). She is usually tired (after training or walking) when the "nerve like" behavior occurs.

Her brother (ring dog prospect in Belgium) I have been told has similar reactions and wants to move forward. Described as a "nerve" and potential dangerous aggression. Owner is on belgian national mondioring team (with the puppies father) and also uses his dogs for security work. He prefers a nerve like this in his dogs. Her father debou van joefarm (Zep son) is a little crazy and really hard (handler aggro). Mother (elgos daughter) is belgian ring 1 and known for speed and a good bite, don't know much else about here except that she is really ugly (looks like a hyana).

My ideal dog is social and nonreactive to normal environmental events. I have spent a lot of time training the pup in different environments (including rolling stairs, shopping malls, stores, cafes, construction site, children, dogs, etc) in hope of achieving this goal. This has been unproblematic so far. My old mal seemed confident and strong as a pup (but with dog aggo and dominance), and turned out to be unsocial and aggressive easily in conflict with me (release etc), but not handler hard. I guess I have been scanning my current pup too much for signs of nervousess, but I wonder what it is normal to expect to see through puppyhood (I know there is large variation).

I have read there often is a fear period at 8-12 weeks and at 7 months. What I have seen is increased reactiveness at 17 weeks (almost nothing until then). Can it have something to do with visual development? I have thought she maybe has "opened up her eyes to the world" now
and therefor has increased reactions. But whan do I know, this is my second dog, and they were very different. I guess I can't expect a pup with a bulletproof head, but I wonder what your experiences are.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

WHat do you do when the dog is being an idiot ?? I really don't put up with that much of the biting ME thing, and 17 weeks is what 10 years ?? Probably a bit too long to be putting up with that.

I will not put up with a dog deciding to be an idiot on their own. I tell them to shut up, and if they don't then they get a smacking. If they really really cannot deal, in other words, I smack them and tell them to get on with their walk and they just cannot deal with it, then I do take that into consideration.

Soda PoP does not like people. However, when she did the growling I am an idiot thing, she got cracked in the head. When the neighbor thought it was funny to grab her, and he missed, but she didn't, she got the beating that made the difference. 

She now happily runs into his house, and he yells at her and chases her out and it is obvious she finds this funny.

She also does not like when people walk by her on the sidewalk, but there is no more growling, just that weird look she gives them that is soooo attractive.

So to narrow this down, you got a dog from dogs that are a bit much. You need to teach her what is appropriate. If she cannot handle that, then you are in trouble LOL


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## Bernt Lundby (Mar 27, 2009)

Well, I am not really worried about the mouthing yet, and I am getting the chewing ME in check (was never a problem fo rme, but I know it will be if at 1 year + age if uncontrolled). I don't correct her hard yet, but will when she in a month or two start testing me. The mouthing I work to redirect and if that is not successful I give her a NO with a pinch of the ear or shake hear by the neck. Most of the time she quits after one of those, but did occationaly come back for more. I am reluctant to correcting her for growling or barking so early as I fear it may increase the undesirable behavior by making her even more uncomfortable in the situation. Whe she is older and easier to read I will not heasitate to do this however. Here of course I getting different advice.

My main worries are with potential sharpness/suspicion level, what is something I don't need too much of in a sport dog. On the other hand, I am not hoping for an overly soft and weak spirited dog as I want to compete in high level mondioring. The ideal is a confident, social, nonreactive dog with lots of prey/fight and little defence. Probably I am as I wrote, just over analyzing potential danger signs. Her increase in reactivity don't fit the fear at 8-12 weeks and 7 months rule, but I guess there is great variation. Is a behavioral change like this at around 4 months to be expected?


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## Bernt Lundby (Mar 27, 2009)

If she persists in reacting suspiciously I think I will start clicking as she fixates her gaze and give a treat, thereby getting her expectation changed toward me and associating the person positively. On my old dog this did not work because there was no reward strong enough to cancel his escalating aggression (he would not take food, prey item etc, just keep on towards the "danger"). Not that anything else worked eighter as he was a nutcase to begin with.

Edit: I wrote mother Abbata van joefarm is ring1, what i meant was ring3 (just to get it right).


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I tell them no, and if they want to still act the fool, then they get slapped. I am not about to wait for months when I can solve the problem in seconds.

I will add, that if she still has problems, then it is fear based, and a problem.


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## Erica Boling (Jun 17, 2008)

I have a nervy, reactive dog. It is fear based I believe. She has been like this since she was young. Everybody told me it was a fear period... a phase... but she never really grew out of it. I socialized the hell out of her. She just turned two years old. Although she has gotten somewhat better.. at times... I always have to be on my toes with her and have to be very aware of my surroundings. It doesn't take much to set her off. With my dog, I believe it is genetics... poor nerves. To give you an example, EVERY SINGLE day we have the same routine for going out to the bathroom. She goes to the same spots, multiple times every day. We live in a somewhat busy area with neighbors, construction across the street, etc. After two years, she still walks out the door, on alert, hackles frequently up. You'd think she'd be used to the routine by now.


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## Bernt Lundby (Mar 27, 2009)

That sounds like my old dog. This pup is not like that... Just took her to the unviersity campus in Oslo and walked through crowds, slippery floors, metal stairways etc, no problems at all with any of it. Hundreds of people moving around, drinking beer, carrying bags etc. No problem at all. Tail up, happily trotting around. She instantly downs, sits and comes even in the crowd. Maybe she is just a bit sceptical of the dark at the moment or something. Almost certainly its me being an over analyzing idiot :-o


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## Dan Brigham (Jul 23, 2009)

Erica Boling said:


> I have a nervy, reactive dog. It is fear based I believe. She has been like this since she was young. Everybody told me it was a fear period... a phase... but she never really grew out of it. I socialized the hell out of her. She just turned two years old. Although she has gotten somewhat better.. at times... I always have to be on my toes with her and have to be very aware of my surroundings. It doesn't take much to set her off. With my dog, I believe it is genetics... poor nerves. To give you an example, EVERY SINGLE day we have the same routine for going out to the bathroom. She goes to the same spots, multiple times every day. We live in a somewhat busy area with neighbors, construction across the street, etc. After two years, she still walks out the door, on alert, hackles frequently up. You'd think she'd be used to the routine by now.


When she does some of this have you told her to knock it the **** off, give a correction and get on with life??

If so, why are you still feeding this dog????:roll:


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## Erica Boling (Jun 17, 2008)

Dan Brigham said:


> When she does some of this have you told her to knock it the **** off, give a correction and get on with life??
> 
> If so, why are you still feeding this dog????:roll:



Yep, she's definitely been told to knock it off.... many times. I've used corrections, positive motivation, clicker training... tried it all it seems. I originally bought her to be a pet, not a working dog. Although she can be a fruitcake at times, she's not always like that. She has stolen my heart, and so she's here to stay. She does have some good qualities.  However, I am now on the lookout for a nice, drivey, confident pup to train for search & rescue.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

So it can hang out with the nervebag ?? Nice idea. LOL Shitcan the dog.


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## Bernt Lundby (Mar 27, 2009)

No reactions to anything for a couple of days, must have been a phase lasting less than a week. Was just wondering because the pup has been nervesteady as hell until those few days when it started having some reactions. Was never bad or anything, just me wondering about the change. False alarm ](*,)


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## Erica Boling (Jun 17, 2008)

Bernt Lundby said:


> No reactions to anything for a couple of days, must have been a phase lasting less than a week. Was just wondering because the pup has been nervesteady as hell until those few days when it started having some reactions. Was never bad or anything, just me wondering about the change. False alarm ](*,)


Glad things are getting back to normal! I did notice that my dog's levels of reactivity were impacted by her hormones and heat cycle. Before she was spayed, there was a distinct pattern that I'm sure was hormone related. There were certain times when she was more reactive and territorial than others. She had horrible false pregnancies, and that didn't help either.


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## Dan Brigham (Jul 23, 2009)

Bernt Lundby said:


> No reactions to anything for a couple of days, must have been a phase lasting less than a week. Was just wondering because the pup has been nervesteady as hell until those few days when it started having some reactions. Was never bad or anything, just me wondering about the change. False alarm ](*,)


Chalk it up to a fear period or some unknown anomaly and continue on. I have seen odd things that just cease being a problem a week or a month later as they grow up. Heck, it could even be just a bad day, we all have them sometime.:-k Anyway, glad that things are going well.


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## Colin Chin (Sep 20, 2006)

Bernt Lundby said:


> No reactions to anything for a couple of days, must have been a phase lasting less than a week. Was just wondering because the pup has been nervesteady as hell until those few days when it started having some reactions. Was never bad or anything, just me wondering about the change. False alarm ](*,)


Hi Bernt,
Good to hear that she's ok ? Did you choose her yourself or selection dodne by the breeder ?


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## Bernt Lundby (Mar 27, 2009)

She was chosen by Neal Wallis who knows the people at Joefarm personally (first choise). She is a lot of dog! 

The period lasted about a week and she is now fine again. She is not sensitive to corrections at all and is testy with biting (hard and uninhibited). She is calm, silent and focused in bitework, not bothered by accessories (bottels with rocks, stick, whip, barrels etc). Her bite is perfect and really hard (can already feel a good pinch through the jeanviere, and soft sleeve. She is not dog aggressive and social/open with people (except for the week). She is closing in at 50 pounds at 4.5 month age and will probably be a really big female, something I like for MR (punching through accessories etc). She is very fight oriented and chasing balls need to be rewarded with fight/tug or she is not very interested. Ball drive is building up gradually now though through training. She is also calm and focused during tracking (doing some basic IPO tracks now). She has started to protest a bit and not come when called, avoid entering crate. I have solved this by never having her off leech without a long line attached so she nerver experiences getting away with this. 

The people I train with (Neal, Kees) say they think she is a good puppy (biting, environmental) and that she is also smart (fast learner). By sheer luck she is also not too ugly  

My reason for writing the first post was the sudden change from rock solid (except a little barking at people and running up to them) nerves to growling at people in the distance, faces on the television and increase in stress (pulling on the leech). . I just got worried she was turning unsocial because I know the father is handler hard and unsocial. The owner trains him with leather straps on the forearms because he bites when corrected. I saw him doing MR3 comp in Belgium and he looked almost as keen on taking out the judge before the decoys appeared. He could not be petted, but was under control. A LOT of high level electric training (had to switch to a different brand to get enough ..think it was from Innotek to Dogtra). Owner has had a lot of problems with food refusal and is now planting saucages with electric wires on the ground, stimming him in the teeth if he eats... pretty harsh. Anyway, I now believe my fears were unwarranted and that she just had a phase. How hard she will become is another matter, but since I mostly train positively, I may not facilitate increase in hardness as much as some others.


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