# Opinion regarding scratch pants and helpers



## Mike Spivey

I'm curious to see what kind of opinion folks have regarding helpers working dogs and not wearing scratch pants or an apron while doing so.
I've always looked at it as a sign of professionalism and a sign that the helper is serious about what they are doing, is aware of the risks, and is not sending a mixed signal or picture to the dog when they wear pants. 

The reason I ask, is I went to a club to work and noticed that the helper wasn't wearing scratch pants while working dogs (including a couple of police dogs). When I asked about it, I was told that not only did he sign a waiver but that it was too hot.

Opinions?


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## Thomas Barriano

Mike Spivey said:


> I'm curious to see what kind of opinion folks have regarding helpers working dogs and not wearing scratch pants or an apron while doing so.
> I've always looked at it as a sign of professionalism and a sign that the helper is serious about what they are doing, is aware of the risks, and is not sending a mixed signal or picture to the dog when they wear pants.
> 
> The reason I ask, is I went to a club to work and noticed that the helper wasn't wearing scratch pants while working dogs (including a couple of police dogs). When I asked about it, I was told that not only did he sign a waiver but that it was too hot.
> 
> Opinions?


As long as he didn't complain when a dog nipped or scraped his leg, it doesn't matter to me what he wears 
I personally think it's foolish, but I've got attractive legs and I'd hate to get them damaged LOL


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## maggie fraser

You ought to ask Joby on here, from many of the pics he's been sporting he looks like he decoys in his birthday suit .


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## Jeff Threadgill

I don't have a problem with it. I used to wear carharts and other stuff. In police k9 training I don't want my guy wearing nothing but a bite suit or hidden sleeves. I would rather them dress like a normal person and not always in the same attire.


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## Mike Scheiber

Mike [LEFT said:


> Spivey[/LEFT];202931]I'm curious to see what kind of opinion folks have regarding helpers working dogs and not wearing scratch pants or an apron while doing so.
> I've always looked at it as a sign of professionalism and a sign that the helper is serious about what they are doing, is aware of the risks, and is not sending a mixed signal or picture to the dog when they wear pants.
> Opinions?


I have the same opinion as you as dose our club. No scratch pants or apron no work dogs.
I loaded blinds yesterday at the end all that helped me put there pants back on.


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## Keith Jenkins

I wear scratch pants everytime I work a dog, from puppies to SchH3. Gets real hot where I'm at also but still suit up and expect the same from whoever works my dog(s).


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## Brian McConnell

In Schtuzhnd the dog expects to see a certain picture and knows that if he sees that pic it is Ok to do the hold and bark.
In real life , P olice work I can see how using street cloths would br the way to go, but in Sch. I think the dog should see the proper Picture.
Brian


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## Jeff Threadgill

Brian McConnell said:


> In Schtuzhnd the dog expects to see a certain picture and knows that if he sees that pic it is Ok to do the hold and bark.
> In real life , P olice work I can see how using street cloths would br the way to go, but in Sch. I think the dog should see the proper Picture.
> Brian


I can see your point.


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## Mike Spivey

I agree that in police work, the more "street like" you can make it the better. If the dog is definitely an arm biter then a hidden sleeve is great. A bite suit takes into consideration the safety and continued working ability of the decoy for dogs making leg, dorsal or pectoral muscle group bites. I am in full agreement with the philosophy that the dog in schutzhund is given a sight picture to expect and this makes for a consistent and reliable training structure. The idea of the excuse of "its too hot" (as those same folks work their dogs in the same sun) or that they signed a waiver removing them from the responsibility of proper and good safety measures is a pretty lackidaisical attitude from a helper and club in general in my opinion. What does this say about the club? 
I'm an ardent supporter of Social Darwinism and so long as it effects only the individual, he can decoy against a hyena or grizzley bear in my book. But I think this is something that is symptomatic of failures elsewhere and can lead to difficulties on a variety of levels in a training program. 

Most of my concern was brushed off when I voiced it and tried to make a case for my reasoning. Too much concern on this issue?
I appreciate the feedback pro and con if any, regarding this.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Of all the things to complain about with a helper who is voluntarily working your dogs in 90F+ heat along with many other dogs in a row with little breaks or shade, whether they wear scratch pants or not is not really high on the list of priorities. For trial, sure, but training, I'd guess it's his choice if he knows of the potential for getting clawed. Do you guys check if he's wearing a cup too? 

I'm not a Schutzhund hater, but if a dog really needs to see scratch pants or an apron before the dog will bite the sleeve, that's kind of telling of the dog...


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## Jeff Oehlsen

This is a silly thread. If you are working a dog that will bite you other than the sleeve, then you dress accordingly. Since biting on the legs is not allowed, what is the big deal ??

To OCD in thought process for me.


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## jack van strien

Imo this is not about a dog biting something else then the targer area, the sleeve in this case.The fast majority of dogs if properly trained from the beginning will never even consider biting the legs.The word scratchpants describes precisely where it is for.It also hurts to really get scratched and therefore a decoy should wear them,for selfprotection!
If a decoy was to work my dog without wearing protection then he would have to convince me he would not in anyway interfere with my dog clawing him before doing the work.If the not wearing of the pants would effect the way he works the dog then it would be a reason not to let him work my dog.
Maybe it would be different if it was a club decoy whom had worked the dog numerous times before .


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Silly Sch'ers don't want the dog touching with his feet anyway. LOL


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## Mike Scheiber

Brian McConnell said:


> In Schtuzhnd the dog expects to see a certain picture and knows that if he sees that pic it is Ok to do the hold and bark.
> In real life , P olice work I can see how using street cloths would br the way to go, but in Sch. I think the dog should see the proper Picture.
> Brian


I dont care if the helper is waring a gorilla suite in the blind if that's part of the lesson but the scratch pants/apron should go on when business is back to usual that's the way proper/traditional Schutzhund is done.
Fact is the picture the dog see's shouldnt matter discipline is what is supposed to be exhibited not always the case though.


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## Chris Michalek

in our club the helpers wear aprons most of the time but many times we don't wear scratch pants or aprons. There was one training session where the helper was wearing only his underwear and boots.


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## Mike Scheiber

Chris Michalek said:


> in our club the helpers wear aprons most of the time but many times we don't wear scratch pants or aprons. There was one training session where the helper was wearing only his underwear and boots.


Was that part of the lesson :lol:


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## Chris Michalek

Mike Scheiber said:


> Was that part of the lesson :lol:


not really, it was hot as ****. This was last summer and it was over 100F at 11pm.

It was quite the sight to see and wish I had a camera. 

But for the most part we just use aprons.


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## Alan Fielding

Maren- Schutzhund is sport just as is French ring. In order to get maximum points why not present the dog with a consistent picture in training? You do French ring.... right?. Why would you want your dog go "for the Man" rather then the proper areas on the suit. This is about a sport not police work and yes- Oh my god! It is about points-- consistency in training results in better scores.By the way most good Schutzhund dogs could give a rats ass if the helper has a scratch suit on or not - They are really trained to focus and target the sleeve.You know "sleeve suckers"--- "suit suckers" depending on your sport-)


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## Mike Scheiber

Chris Michalek said:


> not really, it was hot as ****. This was last summer and it was over 100F at 11pm.
> 
> It was quite the sight to see and wish I had a camera.
> 
> But for the most part we just use aprons.


I lived there almost 2 years I did fry a egg in a parking lot. You goda do what you goda do not a place for this Minnesota boy.


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## Butch Cappel

So did you? You know!

Was he wearing a cup?


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## Chris Michalek

Mike Scheiber said:


> I lived there almost 2 years I did fry a egg in a parking lot. You goda do what you goda do not a place for this Minnesota boy.



yeah not me either. If I didn't like my wife, I would be back in the tundra or living somewhere in CO.


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## sam wilks

I think it is the helpers business whether he wears them or not. I personally wouldn't mind to have a pair of scratch pants, but there is other equipment I would rather buy on the rare occasion I have extra money. If your decoy was willing to take a live bite just to see what your dog will do would you argue that? probably not. It does hurt like a mfer when you have a 90 pound shepherd holding himself up on your stomach using his nails.


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## Joby Becker

maggie fraser said:


> You ought to ask Joby on here, from many of the pics he's been sporting he looks like he decoys in his birthday suit .


I work dogs nekid..mags...


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## tracey schneider

I wouldn't make a big deal of it but yes I would prefer it. I think I may be coming from the opposite direction on this though. My preference is not that I think it will mess with sch or training... My concern is how, if at all, will it effect the dogs off the field. 

T


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## Dan Long

I caught my buddies PSD and didn't have scratch pants on. Wish I did! Nice gouges right thru my jeans, hurt like hell.


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## Jim Duncan

It all depends on the situation for me. When working Police K9's I rarely use them, but I do on occassion. I will wear scratch pants when decoying for SchH dogs. I think it presents the right picture for the dog. However, if I'm only working one or two dogs or just jumping in to fix a problem I may not suit up. I will just grab a sleeve, bite pillow or tug depending on the dog. If a decoy didn't want to wear scratch pants to work my dog I wouldn't care. My male had a habit of biting in the chest if the decoy pissed him off on the hold and bark. Scratch pants didn't seem to help that much since he normally got the chest where there was no protection. It's no longer an issue since we don't do a hold and bak with him as a police K9. 

Overall, for a SchH decoy I do think it is more "professional" to wear cleats and scratch pants when decoying. I've had many decoys not wearing scratch pants complain of being scratched by my dogs when they wrapped them up. 

JMO,

Jim


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## Maren Bell Jones

Alan Fielding said:


> Maren- Schutzhund is sport just as is French ring. In order to get maximum points why not present the dog with a consistent picture in training? You do French ring.... right?. Why would you want your dog go "for the Man" rather then the proper areas on the suit. This is about a sport not police work and yes- Oh my god! It is about points-- consistency in training results in better scores.By the way most good Schutzhund dogs could give a rats ass if the helper has a scratch suit on or not - They are really trained to focus and target the sleeve.You know "sleeve suckers"--- "suit suckers" depending on your sport-)


Not quite, PSA. AKA: where you intentionally introduce inconsistency that's presented to the dog as a part of the test of the sport.  

But either way, what does the scratch pants have to do with proper targeting? I thought their function was preventing scratches and that's about it (which a pair of Carhartts can do just as well). And if it's about a consistent picture, the decoys would need to wear the same type of shirt every time or other such silliness during training, which obviously doesn't happen. 

Should a helper wear scratch pants? Sure. Should they wear it for a trial? Sure. Do I take care of our decoys? I'd hope they agree that I try to. But am I going to make a grown man who is experienced in helper work put on scratch pants in 90 F+ weather if he's too hot in practice? No. Would I say I told you so if he got a bad scratch from claw marks if he chose not to wear them? Well...maybe just a little while I was grabbing the first aid car out of my car. :lol: ;-)


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## Joby Becker

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Well...maybe just a little while I was grabbing the first aid car out of my car. :lol: ;-)


first aid for scratches ???


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## Guest

> I have the same opinion as you as dose our club. No scratch pants or apron no work dogs.


You know what happens when I don't wear scratch pants?

Wait for it...

...it's good...

...trust me, it's worth the wait...

...

My legs got scratched.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ytCEuuW2_A


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## Maren Bell Jones

Joby Becker said:


> first aid for scratches ???


I said a "bad scratch." :razz: And any time a decoy catches a tooth and there's a teeny bit of blood, I just gotta clean it. Seen too many nasty infections from what seems like inconsequential dog bites. Cats are worse, but eh...besides, if I can't play team "doctor," what else am I good for? :wink:


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## Mike Spivey

Thanks folks. I think that gave me a good cross section of opinions. I appreciate the feedback.


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## Jim Nash

Mike Spivey said:


> I'm curious to see what kind of opinion folks have regarding helpers working dogs and not wearing scratch pants or an apron while doing so.
> I've always looked at it as a sign of professionalism and a sign that the helper is serious about what they are doing, is aware of the risks, and is not sending a mixed signal or picture to the dog when they wear pants.
> 
> The reason I ask, is I went to a club to work and noticed that the helper wasn't wearing scratch pants while working dogs (including a couple of police dogs). When I asked about it, I was told that not only did he sign a waiver but that it was too hot.
> 
> Opinions?


We use to never use scratch pants . Several years ago we changed that when doing our initial bitework training and USPCA certification preperation training we had the new decoys use them . They were getting scratched up pretty good and it was effecting them working the dog properly . Usually though they end up toughening up and opt not to use them down the road . 

I don't have a problem either way , just as long as they can work the dog properly .


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## Kevin Walsh

It all depends on knowing the dog you are working.

My decoys use to wear scratch pants, groan protection, and scratch coats.
Now that they are familiar with my dog, they will work her in shorts.
Speaking for my dog, if you have a sleeve on, she doesn't give two shits about what kind of pants you have on ; )

New dog that appears aggressive, of course wear them. But if you are familiar with the dog, and decent and reading a dog, I think its a matter of preference.


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## Keith Jenkins

Everyone who wants to wear shorts, flip flops and no shirt and do an escape bite on a leg wrapper raise your hand....


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## Chris Michalek

Keith Jenkins said:


> Everyone who wants to wear shorts, flip flops and no shirt and do an escape bite on a leg wrapper raise your hand....


I've seen it except there were no flip flops. I haven't seen it since. :lol:


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## Mike Scheiber

My Rottweiler with out fail on escape bites would get his paw inside the scratch pants and leave nasty scratches on the helpers kidney area rib cage and back. 
I usually run in to town for a 6pack


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## Mike Spivey

Jim Nash said:


> We use to never use scratch pants . Several years ago we changed that when doing our initial bitework training and USPCA certification preperation training we had the new decoys use them . They were getting scratched up pretty good and it was effecting them working the dog properly . Usually though they end up toughening up and opt not to use them down the road .
> 
> I don't have a problem either way , just as long as they can work the dog properly .


That to me sounds like a good reason alone for a decoy to wear scratch pants. I've always worn them regardless of the temperature or the dog. Its very distracting to have a dog paw and claw you and your wiggling to get out of the way. Not to mention the occasional dirty bite. At least there is something between you and a scar to tell stories about. I worked a visiting pit bull at my own club that got under the sleeve and was fishing for a bite. As I was backing up to get away there were a few times that he scraped but because of the surface of the scratch pants just missed. Really glad I was wearing a cup that day too.

I guess for me, its my opinion that its an essential part of the working kit. For the reason stated above, the idea that if they are skimping on that bit of safety, what else are they skimping on and the idea that there is the callous philosophy of "I signed a waiver". I don't begrudge anyone their own idea of how safe or unsafe they feel, and if they want to work naked, let em. I won't drive them to the ER for being stupid though.

I guess too, it also comes down to a level of courtesy towards a club I may be visiting as a helper. They no doubt pay a premium (like many clubs do) for insurance. Why jeopardize that clubs rates because of careless or a personal level of bravado. I've had dogs open my sides because they got a paw between the back and front flap of the scratch pants and have left some seriously deep gouges and a myriad of nip scars from close calls. I'm sure everyone has a bite story or a close call story, decoy, trainer and handler. I've had accidents in bite suits where a dog got up underneath a coat and got a hold of me, so they happen. But I would like to think that I've taken as much reasonable precaution as I can. 
There have been alot of interesting opinions regarding this. Thanks.


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## Jim Nash

Mike Spivey said:


> That to me sounds like a good reason alone for a decoy to wear scratch pants. I've always worn them regardless of the temperature or the dog. Its very distracting to have a dog paw and claw you and your wiggling to get out of the way. Not to mention the occasional dirty bite. At least there is something between you and a scar to tell stories about. I worked a visiting pit bull at my own club that got under the sleeve and was fishing for a bite. As I was backing up to get away there were a few times that he scraped but because of the surface of the scratch pants just missed. Really glad I was wearing a cup that day too.
> 
> I guess for me, its my opinion that its an essential part of the working kit. For the reason stated above, the idea that if they are skimping on that bit of safety, what else are they skimping on and the idea that there is the callous philosophy of "I signed a waiver". I don't begrudge anyone their own idea of how safe or unsafe they feel, and if they want to work naked, let em. I won't drive them to the ER for being stupid though.
> 
> I guess too, it also comes down to a level of courtesy towards a club I may be visiting as a helper. They no doubt pay a premium (like many clubs do) for insurance. Why jeopardize that clubs rates because of careless or a personal level of bravado. I've had dogs open my sides because they got a paw between the back and front flap of the scratch pants and have left some seriously deep gouges and a myriad of nip scars from close calls. I'm sure everyone has a bite story or a close call story, decoy, trainer and handler. I've had accidents in bite suits where a dog got up underneath a coat and got a hold of me, so they happen. But I would like to think that I've taken as much reasonable precaution as I can.
> There have been alot of interesting opinions regarding this. Thanks.


We always start our new decoys in scratchpants . Once they learn and elect to go without that's fine as long as they can work the dog right and ignore the scratching . They also know if it is found they can't work the dog correctly they will be made to wear the scratchpants . 

I saw this in another thread and it's a prime example of when I would make someone wear scratchpants . The decoy is pushing the dog off because he's getting scratched and the handler even moves into to help and holds the dog's paws . 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHD0PoOMdoM


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## Candy Eggert

Just to add a bit, I've also seen helpers (decoys) that smack the dog's feet off of them with the stick even with scratch pants on. [-X Of course this is SchH ](*,) I'll take the point loss but I don't allow it.


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