# appearance of dog in guard



## Shade Whitesel (Aug 18, 2010)

I Just wanted to start a discussion of what people want to see in a guard of helper or decoy. FOr instance, in Schutzhund guard, do you want ears flattened, teeth out, does that say a certain thing that the dog is feeling, or ears up, etc, or ears sideways, etc... Does it differ for silent guard, or active guard?


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## Shade Whitesel (Aug 18, 2010)

For instance, I just YouTubed Satoris Gator's 100 point C phase at the 2009 WUSV, and Sharon Ronen and Sam's 97, both given by Lance Collins. Both dog's ears are up (at least what I would consider up). I was getting the feeling in reading the thread on Pike, that some people like ears down and consider it is more defense and that the dog considers the helper a "real bad guy". If the ears are up, the dog is less serious?


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I want my dog to be intensly focused on the helper 100%, whether active or silent guard, regardless of his/her ear position.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

My perfect picture would be deep barks, eye ****ing the decoy and with each bark a little forward movement into the decoy. If I had a bark and hold


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

My ideal guard….I want ears up, dog barking strongly, feet pounding the ground, while staring intensely at the helpers face. No glancing around, I want the dog to demand the bite. No bumping or touching of the helper, and the dog is only to stop active guarding when I give the command, then I want the dog’s focus on me (in heel position) until we move into a transport.


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

Shade Whitesel said:


> For instance, I just YouTubed Satoris Gator's 100 point C phase at the 2009 WUSV, and Sharon Ronen and Sam's 97, both given by Lance Collins. Both dog's ears are up (at least what I would consider up). I was getting the feeling in reading the thread on Pike, that some people like ears down and consider it is more defense and that the dog considers the helper a "real bad guy". If the ears are up, the dog is less serious?



****I am no where near an expert of Lance’s method, but “expression” is a huge part of the training. Starting from the beginning we reward only when the dogs ears are forward and in an ideal situation the mouth is closed as well. In this training, when the dog is feeling pressure or stress that is normally when you see the ears back, but as the dog expects good things (such as a bite) the ears will come forward if you train with expression in mind. Lance’s method is all about working with the dog’s natural behaviour as much as you can rather then trying to fight against it. And a dog can be very serious and have its ears forward.. if it is expecting and wanting the fight with the man.

Anyone who has been to Lance’s club can attest to the power and seriousness in the protection, his method is geared towards that. Which is why we never introduce sleeve work as a game and it is started at over a year of age.


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## Ang Cangiano (Mar 2, 2007)

Nice silent guard:
http://www.jinopo.cz/video/Dargo_JinopoCZ(streaming).wmv

Ang


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## Gerald Dunn (Sep 24, 2011)

Nice silent guard: =D>


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Nice silent guard


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Don't focus so much on sport but when I've seen dogs in action in the real and a couple on a guard--ears forward, body leaning toward, fixed stare and mouth closed. I've seen rhythmic barking w/ actual feet pounding but that was when the dog couldn't get to them--frustrated. Great thread/question on what type of body language denotes that the dog is serious especially in a trained conditioned dog.

T


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

this might be one of my favorite guards of all time
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=9NvVPLHiU0E#t=990s


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

will fernandez said:


> this might be one of my favorite guards of all time
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=9NvVPLHiU0E#t=990s


super...


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

T just mentioned a few others, but if we are gonna get into any thread that relates to "body language" i hope it doesn't get hung up debating ear position 

canine behavior 101, which everyone here should already be WELL aware of is that "body language" is the "sum of the parts" (clusters if you want the technical definition)
.... get tunnel vision on one or two signs and you do NOT know how to read the dog 
.... at any given moment there are probably at least ten different "things" being presented, and assessing what they all mean together is as much an art as a science
.... and of course you could probably line up three trainers in front of the dog and get three different "reads" sometimes


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## Shade Whitesel (Aug 18, 2010)

"and of course you could probably line up three trainers in front of the dog and get three different "reads" sometime"

and unfortunately 3 different judges might also have 3 different reads in which case you get 3 different points.

for instance, how do we describe "aggressively guarding" in behavior terms? 

Consistent barking? Gator and Javier do not have consistent barking. 
Ears up? I have heard that described as looking or barking for the toy.
Looking helper in face? Over sleeve? Can easily be trained behavior.

See my confusion?


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

There is no cunfusion...you train for the picture you want to see...


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re: "this might be one of my favorite guards of all time
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...PLHiU0E#t=990s"

super Malmutt ! 
love the way it was pressuring the decoy !


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## Mario Fernandez (Jun 21, 2008)

Shade is right too much discretionary interpretation. Everybody has their own picture.Handler, trainer, Judge.

The picture I like is the dog full focus on the helper, I don't care regarding ear placement, if the dog is shaking or front leg up, mouth open or close..just focus on the helper/decoy regardless of the judge is walking behind the dog of handler approaching. I wouldn't mind in the guarding phase the dog is not so focused on the sleeve but the individual holding the equipment.

Javir was taught to be silent right before the attacks out of the escape and long bite after the out he was allowed to be in active guard on the stick side of the helper.


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

My favorite (yeah almost everyone has seen it):

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3ghrk_championnat-ring-franche-comte-ulko_news


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## Mario Fernandez (Jun 21, 2008)

This is why I hate about IPO/VPG /SCH all the damn rule changes. No clear definition.

As Will said train for what you like. Some judges will like something other judge will not.


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

I agree with Will train what you like to see. You will never please all the judges! I train for a lot of “extras” which will probably never get me any extra points but that is what I personally want in my own dogs.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

So its really all about what PEOPLE think looks serious not whether the dog really is serious and what would the dog display on his own if he were taking it seriously. With the look being trained/conditioned, I'm back to how in the world do you know what frame of mind the dog is in. Rick alludes to the in the Pike thread that three of the dogs were trained with the helper really being the bad guy--in what way. How far does the helper have to go to convince the dog that its serious. What does that mean to a dog--his little life or his handler's is at stake? This all starts as a game but then you want the look of serious instead of the game, so how do you get that?

T


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Ang Cangiano said:


> Nice silent guard:
> http://www.jinopo.cz/video/Dargo_JinopoCZ(streaming).wmv
> 
> Ang


Very nice...from what can be seen on the video. How the dog comes out of the guarding is very important to me.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> So its really all about what PEOPLE think looks serious not whether the dog really is serious and what would the dog display on his own if he were taking it seriously. With the look being trained/conditioned, I'm back to how in the world do you know what frame of mind the dog is in. Rick alludes to the in the Pike thread that three of the dogs were trained with the helper really being the bad guy--in what way. How far does the helper have to go to convince the dog that its serious. What does that mean to a dog--his little life or his handler's is at stake? This all starts as a game but then you want the look of serious instead of the game, so how do you get that?
> 
> T


I don't think that anyone knows if a dog is going to bite for sure until it does. For me a serious dog is one that can convince me enough that he makes me extra cautious when I'm working him. It's not a certain look or body movement; it's just the way the dog carries himself.

If you watch a lot of animal documentaries you will see a predator like a cheetah walking close to a herd gazelle and they don't even stop grazing to look at him. They can feel that he's not hunting by his demeanor. It's the same thing if you have worked a lot of dogs.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Tracey Hughes said:


> I agree with Will train what you like to see. You will never please all the judges! I train for a lot of “extras” which will probably never get me any extra points but that is what I personally want in my own dogs.


I agree Tracy. Years ago I stopped trying to please the judges. I train my dog, to my taste and goals, using the rules as a guideline. And for the most part I'm just trying to impress my friends. 

But I like that schutzhund is open to the judges interpretation. This makes those scores mean something. When I see a dog got a great score under a certain judge I know that dog has certain attributes. For instance, if i see a high score under some judges I know that the dog was very technically correct. If I see the same score under another judge I have a pretty good idea that the dog was super powerful. Then there are those judges that I can't tell anything by their scores because they are not very good judges.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> So its really all about what PEOPLE think looks serious not whether the dog really is serious and what would the dog display on his own if he were taking it seriously. With the look being trained/conditioned, I'm back to how in the world do you know what frame of mind the dog is in. Rick alludes to the in the Pike thread that three of the dogs were trained with the helper really being the bad guy--in what way. How far does the helper have to go to convince the dog that its serious. What does that mean to a dog--his little life or his handler's is at stake? This all starts as a game but then you want the look of serious instead of the game, so how do you get that?
> 
> T


Teresa...you make black and white assumptions...you assume it is a "look" that is trained for...you also assume a helper has to CONVINCE the dog of something, 

Pretty simple...takes bites from a shit ton of dogs and you will form an opinion on which dogs you THINK are serious dogs, compared to which dogs you dont THINK are serious. No, you will not always be correct, but you can always test and train further, outside the realms of what is required to title in sport if you care to, which many people do...

*Not everyone trains everything as a game*...and not *all dogs *take it as a playing a game, even if you would like them to....

There are some dogs that are very safe to work and some that are not..and some that are safe to work but are still very serious..

I was talking to my friend Steve who used to be pretty big into SCH...He told me about some crazy old German guy that used to train at his club in WI...

The old German guy got drunk as usual and they were all talking dogs...one "helper type" guy told the old guy that his SCH III dog was a prey monster and not serious...wouldnt bite without a sleeve present..a heated argument followed and then a challenge ensued..guy said he would fight the dog, old guy instantly gave a command, told him to start fighting..dog mauled the guy, put him in the hospital with severe injuries, after he was rescued by other club members, as the drunk old guy laughed at him...

some dogs a helper KNOWS are serious, and some dogs the owners KNOW, because they KNOW the dog personally.... some dogs are thought to be serious, and some are thought not to be serious..erroneously...

where do you think all these police and military dogs that bite the crap out of people come from, how do you think they are trained???


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## kenneth roth (Jul 29, 2010)

Shade Whitesel said:


> I Just wanted to start a discussion of what people want to see in a guard of helper or decoy. FOr instance, in Schutzhund guard, do you want ears flattened, teeth out, does that say a certain thing that the dog is feeling, or ears up, etc, or ears sideways, etc... Does it differ for silent guard, or active guard?


our mixed male he would bark warning barks then if the person got closer he would bark more and grolw and show his teeth if they walked up to u afoot away his tail would point up stairght then his hair on his back stand up along his spine like the razer ridge back dogs then he would show his theeth :twisted: he ketped a 10 foot area clear of the person


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> So its really all about what PEOPLE think looks serious not whether the dog really is serious and what would the dog display on his own if he were taking it seriously. With the look being trained/conditioned, I'm back to how in the world do you know what frame of mind the dog is in. Rick alludes to the in the Pike thread that three of the dogs were trained with the helper really being the bad guy--in what way
> 
> How far does the helper have to go to convince the dog that its serious. What does that mean to a dog--his little life or his handler's is at stake? This all starts as a game but then you want the look of serious instead of the game, so how do you get that?
> 
> T


reward the behavior you want.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

I dont do IPO but......

I prefer to see ears up and forward, ready stance leaning forward with good balance. Eyes not darting back and forth but focused on subject. Tail held high and stiff. I look for a deep gutteral chop chop "warning" bark to address movement or change of energy in decoy/bad guy. I don't like the "trained" non stop yelp yelp prey type bark that is prevelant in a lot of sport dogs (and street dogs for that matter). The true intimidation from any really strong dog comes from energy within and not always what you see on the outside. The bark and hold after all is all about intimidation. 

I prefer this to be natural and NOT trained. In my view if it is trained in MANY cases you basically have a paper tiger. Depending on the goals with the dog I guess that doesn't matter in some circles.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> Teresa...you make black and white assumptions...you assume it is a "look" that is trained for...you also assume a helper has to CONVINCE the dog of something,
> 
> Pretty simple...takes bites from a shit ton of dogs and you will form an opinion on which dogs you THINK are serious dogs, compared to which dogs you dont THINK are serious. No, you will not always be correct, but you can always test and train further, outside the realms of what is required to title in sport if you care to, which many people do...
> 
> ...


I just lost the last shadow comment I wrote. But really, get over it. I don't assume anything. If you're paying attention, you would notice that I ask questions and on most of it I really don't have a position one way or the other. How many posts do we have in this thread and others that are about training for a certain look and discussion of particular dogs in terms of what is genetic vs. what is man made, trained. You're so busy going on your own assumptions and playing the devil's advocate you miss the obvious. An argument between two drunk guys, one who doesn't know the dog but another that does. Really, your point is???? Joby, sport isn't serious. Its training--IMO. If I called you on the phone about a dog and I asked you about that dog and you told me he had a string of titles, then I assume you have the money and miles and the dog brought a minimum of things to the table. Then I'm going to ask you about the dog's character off the field and hopefully you can tell me. I think what has come out of all of this is that why you are sitting ringside watching dogs, you can't assume anything. Trainers are very good about training responses and looks. Next what does a certain look tell you, if anything??? Everyone has their own version. 

T


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> I don't think that anyone knows if a dog is going to bite for sure until it does. For me a serious dog is one that can convince me enough that he makes me extra cautious when I'm working him. It's not a certain look or body movement; it's just the way the dog carries himself.


Well said. 
Terrasita, I think certain things you simply need to get a feel for, and you develop that feel through a lot of first hand experience, there really aren't any shortcuts, I'm for certain you won't learn to understand it by arguing about it over the Internet. My best advise to anyone who is not familiar with the exercise, is if you really are interested in the whys and the hows behind the way any given dog doing performs a formal guard, (silent or active) start going to various clubs, befriend the members, watch and learn.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

susan tuck said:


> Well said. Certain things you simply need to get a feel for, and you develop that feel through a lot of first hand experience, there really aren't any shortcuts, you won't learn it by arguing over the Internet.
> :lol:


you get that feel a lot quicker if your around really good dogs. You get a serious ass dog on the end of that line and you can feel it and if you don't feel it your going for a very educational ride


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

I also think Chris was spot on. 

My experience is that Guarding is something that is more nature than nurture...Just like biting. I generally take comments from trainers that take credit for the way a dog guards with a grain of salt. 

Especially in the bark in the hold, where there is no stimulation for the dog to bark a certain way in a trial. The only stimulation is the presence of the helper. I have seen a dogs guard change in training when a helper threatens the dog, or other stimulation techniques are applied. But theyare gone the dog goes right back to the natural way the dog guards when the stimulation is absent. 

I generally dismiss comments from trainers when they take credit for how the dog guards. I may be wrong on this, but I have yet to see a dog, go from shitty guarding to good guarding that sticks from training techniques. What I have seen is people try to install a good a guard on a dog with a shitty guard...or try and take a prey motivated dog and make them a defense motivated dog. Like I said, I have seen it change in response to stimulation. But when the stimulation is absent. they dog goes back to who they are. 

My female, Had a nice bark and hold with a good bark. And many judges commented on her power and how convincing she was. But I know that in her heart the barking was just a means to a bite. I had people try to convince to me to try and make her more real. But why? she was getting the points. I also, have seen a dog with a good guard that was prey motivated go to shit because the trainer wanted something more real. 

I am sure many people will disagree, But I think the most we can do is allow the dog to grow to who they are going to be as an adult in terms of the guard. If it's a good dog, the bark and hold will be there. If it's mediocre dog...That's the dog we got. A mediocre dog. Just like a grip if the dog has genetically mediocre grip. Gripping and barking to me are social exhanges in the dog. And Social development cannot be changed in only can fostered.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> Well said.
> Terrasita, I think certain things you simply need to get a feel for, and you develop that feel through a lot of first hand experience, there really aren't any shortcuts, I'm for certain you won't learn to understand it by arguing about it over the Internet. My best advise to anyone who is not familiar with the exercise, is if you really are interested in the whys and the hows behind the way any given dog doing performs a formal guard, (silent or active) start going to various clubs, befriend the members, watch and learn.


I'm not arguing the points. I've put in the time at the clubs and watched the training. I also try to go to as many trials as possible. I do think the helpers can shed a lot of light on it. There are things that you see and feel on the other side of the bite that no onlooker can get as good a feel for. But as Shade said, its the interpretation of what you are looking at based on certain physical displays that started all of this. My point was outside of the training helper or someone that has put some time into the dog can you really go by what you see on the trial field and trained responses? 

T


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> My point was outside of the training helper or someone that has put some time into the dog can you really go by what you see on the trial field and trained responses?
> 
> T


In most cases, yes. Especially within ones own sport and breed. I have a harder time seeing through the training and breed the further it is away from my own experiences. But if it's a PP, police or IPO dog I'm usually right. And I think that the amount of time you spend with the dog means nothing if you don't have the experience and talent to know what you are looking at. 

Also, let's say I see a dog in a trial that is super fast in all exercises of obedience but his overall training is not that great. I can pretty safely think that the dog is most likely a naturally fast dog. Because if the handler was able to train the dog to be fast they would also be able to get the rest of the training correct. Now if I see this dog's sister and and half brother are in the trial and they were fast too I have even more info about the dog's natural abilities. On the way off of the field I notice that the handler is shielding the dogs eyes so he can't see the crowed at the exit and when the gate slammed behind the dog he spooked. Now I'd bet the farm that this dog is naturally fast.


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