# American or EU Bred



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Let's stir the pot today... Where would you put more chances for a successful puppy, purchased from EU or American working lines kennels and why? Would you be more likely to purchase the puppy if it had early environmental conditioning done from the breeder or just left alone?

Haven't purchased, not purchasing, and JUST putting out the questions!!! #-o


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## Shane Woodlief (Sep 9, 2009)

Howard, are you talking all breeds or are you thinking a specific breed?


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Shane Woodlief said:


> Howard, are you talking all breeds or are you thinking a specific breed?


 Shane just the general working/sporting dogs of PSA, SCH, LE.


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## Shane Woodlief (Sep 9, 2009)

For me environmental nerves are very important so I went with LoganHaus Kennels (Mike Suttle) who works with and test pups from 3 days old.


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## sam wilks (May 3, 2009)

I dont think it matters where the pup is at. If you know what you are looking for then you should try to find a breeder that is producing dogs like that or close. It would all depend on who the breeder is if i want my puppy worked or not. i at least want my puppy to be exposed to as many environments at a young age. overall i would prefer to get the puppy early as possible so i can do with it what i want.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I would want to pick a puppy from another breeder as early as possible before the breeder has a chance to cover the weaknesses. I want to see the dog, not what someone made it appear to be.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

I think there are a few very experienced american breeders that produce some nice dogs. For me one of the most successful american working breeds is the american bulldog as a good number of them excel in PP, and hunting. For the 'traditional' working or sport dogs like GSDs, malinois and dutchies i'll always prefer the european lines. The european breeders tend to have tougher dogs in my opinon and they tailor their training methods to make sure they can easily identify weaknesses in their dogs. I feel american breeders like the 'positive' all the way route-teaching the bark and hold with a dog's favourite ball. Many european dogs start defense work[usually defense of prey] at 7 months old, whereas some american breeders would wait till over a year. Of course a dog could be ruined with too much defense work at a young ge, still these european breeders are the ones producing dogs like asko, fero, etc. The few american breeders i know of that use some european style in their breeeding/training are Sportwaffen, Diehl's k9,Kulla and a few others.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I would want to pick a puppy from another breeder as early as possible before the breeder has a chance to cover the weaknesses. I want to see the dog, not what someone made it appear to be.


 Don I very much like that point, covering the issue. In puppy picking, I have never really given that much thought and it is very true. For older pups you can see how some helpers or breeders jump backwards to give the IMAGE that the animal has a powerful, deep drive into the bite!


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I have tested litters for what I want and handling doesn't mask what they really are. I can always distinguish between them. Its also been the same with my own. No matter how much I handle them they are distinguishable. That said, my next puppy will come from a litter that I get to see and handle a couple of times before I can take puppy home at 7 weeks. So far when I've been able to see the puppies at 3, 5, 7 weeks, I've gotten in the adult dog exactly what I wanted. As far as breeders go, I think I've corresponded with two that could say they had knowledge of a line because they have worked with several of the dogs through the generations. This is where the value of the breeder comes through. They know how the dogs of that line develop from puppyhood to maturity; how they best train for the venue that they work them in and can provide guidance. I also need to be able to pick my own puppy. So for me, its American bred and within a reasonable drive.

Terrasita


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

That is why people had to start testing them T. By the time breeders finish raising them in the house and handling them all the time from birth, your only option is to test them. The good ones still look good but so do most of the others even tho they aren't.. You should know your own pups but, buyers don't know them.


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## Alison Grubb (Nov 18, 2009)

Having never imported a dog, I'd have to say I'd go for the American bred dog. haha.
I don't care if the dog has had any environmental conditioning, actually it is probably better that it doesn't so I can see the "raw" dog and pick and choose from there.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> That is why people had to start testing them T. By the time breeders finish raising them in the house and handling them all the time from birth, your only option is to test them. The good ones still look good but so do most of the others even tho they aren't.. You should know your own pups but, buyers don't know them.


It doesn't take much Don to see the differences. For instance, my friend had a litter of aussie pups and did the Lithgow type ENS stuff from day 1. They were a week old. She told me they all responded the same. She also said that all her puppies test out the same at 8 weeks. I told her I didn't believe that. So I did three things with the 1 week olds. None of them responded the same and I picked out a black tri bitch that I told her for my tastes I would want to see again. I did three things---elevation; on their backs in my hands; and me holding them close to me. Well, haven't been out to the farm much. Bob and I went out when they were 9 weeks. All of her handling didn't mean a hill of beans when it came to strange people, a strange dog and me taking them into an environment with stock [ducks ] that they were unaccustomed to. I guess they people handled okay but it was perfectly clear which ones had fear and the degree thereof. I didn't even get into my usual bag of tricks for my breeds [corgi, GSD, bouv]. That same one little bitch puppy still outdid all the rests. 

Maybe pet people don't know the difference but a working dog person will be able to distinguish them if they spend enough time with them. And that's really what it comes down to. The lesser ones will do fine as pet. From a working perspective though, I don't think you can turn them into something that they are not with handling. 

Terrasita


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> It doesn't take much Don to see the differences. For instance, my friend had a litter of aussie pups and did the Lithgow type ENS stuff from day 1. They were a week old. She told me they all responded the same. She also said that all her puppies test out the same at 8 weeks. I told her I didn't believe that. So I did three things with the 1 week olds. None of them responded the same and I picked out a black tri bitch that I told her for my tastes I would want to see again. I did three things---elevation; on their backs in my hands; and me holding them close to me. Well, haven't been out to the farm much. Bob and I went out when they were 9 weeks. All of her handling didn't mean a hill of beans when it came to strange people, a strange dog and me taking them into an environment with stock [ducks ] that they were unaccustomed to. I guess they people handled okay but it was perfectly clear which ones had fear and the degree thereof. I didn't even get into my usual bag of tricks for my breeds [corgi, GSD, bouv]. That same one little bitch puppy still outdid all the rests.
> 
> Maybe pet people don't know the difference but a working dog person will be able to distinguish them if they spend enough time with them. And that's really what it comes down to. The lesser ones will do fine as pet. From a working perspective though, I don't think you can turn them into something that they are not with handling.
> 
> Terrasita



That little black tri bitch is a keeper. I wouldn't give the others the time of day although I do think they could adjust with a little work. I'm just not one to wait for a pup to "adjust". 
I also believe that you can hide only so much if the dog doesn't have what it takes from the start.


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