# 3 common dog terms



## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

What is your def of : 1. green dog , 2. started dog, 3. finsihed dog

to me:

1. green = shows raw talent and ability

2. started = has some formal bite and hunt and retrieve, maybe a little OB, maybe a little detection maybe ( not common in my eyes )

3. finished or for sport titled = bites, recalls, outs, OB, hunts and if a detection dog then yea of course its target odors in place


----------



## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

green = anything not certified in the job he will be doing.
finished= one that is certified and working in his job with proficiency


----------



## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> green = anything not certified in the job he will be doing.
> finished= one that is certified and working in his job with proficiency


gotcha so you like some break it down into two parts and kinda put the green just on a internal view of its capabilities some having more than others but still considered green.

any other takers


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Harry Keely said:


> What is your def of : 1. green dog , 2. started dog, 3. finsihed dog
> 
> to me:
> 
> ...



I could agree with those three.
#1 would probably be the hardest to qualify because any exposures, intentional or not, will have some influence on the pup. Not much but some.


----------



## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> I could agree with those three.
> #1 would probably be the hardest to qualify because any exposures, intentional or not, will have some influence on the pup. Not much but some.


I guess should of been clear, but yea enviromentally sound on all three levels, I guess I made the assumption that all would know that, thanks for pointing that at.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Harry Keely said:


> I guess should of been clear, but yea enviromentally sound on all three levels, I guess I made the assumption that all would know that, thanks for pointing that at.


Without "environmentally sound" you call it a looser!:grin::wink:


----------



## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Green= A dog that is a blank canvas. The only training on it are simple things, like potty trained, crate trained,maybe a few commands to make the owners life easier. and the most work it's done is retrieve a ball. 

Started= This is a loose term, dog is somehwere between green and finished. I think this one, I would have to ask where the dog is in said task. But I would take it the dog knows the basic of the behaviors for said task, but is not proficient enough to work.

Finsihed= Dog is to that point where they have achieved titles, certs and the behaviors they know are pretty soldified in them.


----------



## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> Without "environmentally sound" you call it a looser!:grin::wink:


in so many words :lol: yes I guess you could sorta put it like that


----------



## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

James Downey said:


> Green= A dog that is a blank canvas. The only training on it are simple things, like potty trained, crate trained,maybe a few commands to make the owners life easier. and the most work it's done is retrieve a ball.
> 
> Started= This is a loose term, dog is somehwere between green and finished. I think this one, I would have to ask where the dog is in said task. But I would take it the dog knows the basic of the behaviors for said task, but is not proficient enough to work.
> 
> Finsihed= Dog is to that point where they have achieved titles, certs and the behaviors they know are pretty soldified in them.


OK I could agree with that one to


----------



## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

thanks to all who have replied so far, no more takers, this one gets my curiosity going.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I think this is one of those things that is subjective...

there are not many GREEN dogs being presented for anything, according to the definition given...

The local people here select from started dogs, overwhelmingly by the numbers, but I have heard the testers themselves refer to them as Green dogs....

I know what the term Green means to you, and I agree with that for the most part, but I also think because truly Green dogs are such a rarity these days, that many people probably also use the term Green as Mike defined it, on both sides of the equations, the dog suppliers and the dog purchasers.

as far as the internet goes...

I see ads for Green dogs all the time, and it usually says "started on X" with a video link... 

I can't remember ever seeing an Ad titled "Started Dogs" or even a classification for that if a website has types listed separately.

I just looked at K9 Classifieds website,

they have a young/green section, that has mostly "started" dogs all over it.

they also have a DUAL PURPOSE, and a SINGLE PURPOSE section, that is filled with predominantly "started dogs"..

I am not sure at this point in the big scope, if it is clear at all...

many people use the word "Prospect" now..probably even more so than Green or Started....


----------



## Melissa Thom (Jun 21, 2011)

Silly me I had always assumed we took most of these terms from horsemanship and horsetraders.

Prospect means No training, but according to the seller there is potential in their opinion

Green meant the beginning of basic training but zero reliability.

Started meant the beginnings of advanced training. Started on birds, started on narcotic, started on weaves, etc

Finished meant competition or work ready.

Sport title means the dog has a title.


----------



## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> I think this is one of those things that is subjective...
> 
> there are not many GREEN dogs being presented for anything, according to the definition given...
> 
> ...


I know and agree with ya, its all in the terminology of the beholder these days, like mike said - he only uses two terms - but from time to time you still here the three. Point is when buying a dog you really need to know what exactly you are looking for and what you as the buyer is willing to pay for the version of a green dog. Me personally am not going to pay for a green dog with a,b,c,d for such and such a price what i would pay for a dog that only has (a) and (b), because obviously there is more work for me involved as the handler or trainer or both. Thats why its important to provide all the questions that you want as the consumer, because if you dont nowadays who knows what you will get.

Me personally I like to get my dogs with just raw ass talent and nothing more, although I will take a PH1 if its the right deal for the right dog. I have actually taken sch and ipo dogs that had more than just a sporting side to them as well. But I really enjoy the dog with the raw talents.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Harry Keely said:


> I know and agree with ya, its all in the terminology of the beholder these days, like mike said - he only uses two terms - but from time to time you still here the three. Point is when buying a dog you really need to know what exactly you are looking for and what you as the buyer is willing to pay for the version of a green dog. Me personally am not going to pay for a green dog with a,b,c,d for such and such a price what i would pay for a dog that only has (a) and (b), because obviously there is more work for me involved as the handler or trainer or both. Thats why its important to provide all the questions that you want as the consumer, because if you dont nowadays who knows what you will get.
> 
> Me personally I like to get my dogs with just raw ass talent and nothing more, although I will take a PH1 if its the right deal for the right dog. I have actually taken sch and ipo dogs that had more than just a sporting side to them as well. But I really enjoy the dog with the raw talents.



Why my choice will always be the crapshoot for a puppy. 
Other then one with bad hips I've never been disappointed on my puppy selections. Of course that "bad hip" thing is a big one huh! :lol:
He's still the best dog, any breed, I've ever owned and at 8 his hips are just now surfacing.


----------



## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Melissa Thom said:


> Silly me I had always assumed we took most of these terms from horsemanship and horsetraders.
> 
> Prospect means No training, but according to the seller there is potential in their opinion
> 
> ...


GEEEEZ yea you better stick to AKC events ( just kidding calm down, get it joke haha ). See here is a version of five break downs prospect, green, started, finished, titled. Hence once again why its important to ask and know what your wanting and needing and most importantly to know what your looking at.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Melissa Thom said:


> Silly me I had always assumed we took most of these terms from horsemanship and horsetraders.
> 
> Prospect means No training, but according to the seller there is potential in their opinion
> 
> ...


can you direct me to the "Official Rulebook" that defines these terms...lol...since you have laid it out so officially and clearly... 

I was at a facility a couple weeks back, where the Training Director clearly stated to me that they were going to evaluate 4 *Green Prospects* that day...LOL...

I was able to watch the evals and talk to the person presenting them, and he told me that all the dogs had various amounts of training on them, and described the training that was done..

I did hear the guy making the purchase use the term Green and also Prospects. I did NOT hear the guy that showed up to present dogs, label them as anything, he just brought the dogs in, and talked about what was done with them, and had them tested...


----------



## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> Why my choice will always be the crapshoot for a puppy.
> Other then one with bad hips I've never been disappointed on my puppy selections. Of course that "bad hip" thing is a big one huh! :lol:
> He's still the best dog, any breed, I've ever owned and at 8 his hips are just now surfacing.


Yup theres another term crapshoot, which thank god has become a pretty stand alone term by itself being self explanatory, but did one time and only one time got asked why I was being sarcastic, and I wasnt I told her and explained and she now knows the term crapshoot haha.

I like puppies too, but only when I have time to do so, but alot of people that like me, like me for the fact that I can take a pup from start to a dog thats considered ready to go short of a title or cert. But time restrictions stop most folks from going the route of the pup. But yea pups are great and fun and I do enjoy if nothing else imprinting one when I do get the chance too, me and the wife have gone back and forth, back and forth on importing some pups. But obviously have not done that, because I know exactly what lines and who I would go to over there on the other side of the pond. And if those pups turned out to be more than just a great dog I would consider doing another breeding which would be around 5 - 6 years since the last time I did one by the time those pups would even be considered breed worthy.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Harry Keely said:


> Yup theres another term crapshoot, which thank god has become a pretty stand alone term by itself being self explanatory, but did one time and only one time got asked why I was being sarcastic, and I wasnt I told her and explained and she now knows the term crapshoot haha.
> 
> I like puppies too, but only when I have time to do so, but alot of people that like me, like me for the fact that I can take a pup from start to a dog thats considered ready to go short of a title or cert. But time restrictions stop most folks from going the route of the pup. But yea pups are great and fun and I do enjoy if nothing else imprinting one when I do get the chance too, me and the wife have gone back and forth, back and forth on importing some pups. But obviously have not done that, because I know exactly what lines and who I would go to over there on the other side of the pond. And if those pups turned out to be more than just a great dog I would consider doing another breeding which would be around 5 - 6 years since the last time I did one by the time those pups would even be considered breed worthy.



Understood! Your reason for selection, puppy or dog, is different from mine. My final goal is to have a good dog for ME.
I'll give my opinion to someone that asks for help in selection but that opinion is only as to what I see in the present. Raise the pup/dog differently then me and the end product could be totally different, good or bad. That's where my comment about not being disappointed with my selections for MY pups come into play. 
Only real disappointment I've had in selection was one of those ******** mals. :-#:lol::wink:
First pup I ever selected with a bit of nerve issues but I overlooked it because of the drive. That's what really taught me I'm not willing/able to work through those nerve/environmental issues. I got rid of that sucker in a heart beat! To many years with asshole terriers to handle that crap. Look hard enough and somewhere on a working earth dog and you'll find a "NO FEAR" tattooed on those little bassids :lol:


----------



## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> Understood! Your reason for selection, puppy or dog, is different from mine. My final goal is to have a good dog for ME.
> I'll give my opinion to someone that asks for help in selection but that opinion is only as to what I see in the present. Raise the pup/dog differently then me and the end product could be totally different, good or bad. That's where my comment about not being disappointed with my selections for MY pups come into play.
> Only real disappointment I've had in selection was one of those ******** mals. :-#:lol::wink:
> First pup I ever selected with a bit of nerve issues but I overlooked it because of the drive. That's what really taught me I'm not willing/able to work through those nerve/environmental issues. I got rid of that sucker in a heart beat! To many years with asshole terriers to handle that crap. Look hard enough and somewhere on a working earth dog and you'll find a "NO FEAR" tattooed on those little bassids :lol:


Hey your entitled to your choice of breed and opinions, just like if its not a irsih terrier or patterdale I dont want other terrier breeds if I had to choose.


----------



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Finished dog or anything else is a JOKE. If that were the case, why do you recertify a PSD?
It is an ongoing process at all levels. I've seen Labs that were finished and looked poor under real conditions. Like when the goose that was "dead" now comes to life and pecks the hell out of the dog! Now the dog barks around it and hasn't a clue as to how to get this bugger!!!

Finished...never!#-o


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

In all my yrs I've never seen an Irish terrier I'd take home and I always thought I wanted one because of the :-# standards. Shti loads of Pattys though.


----------



## Melissa Thom (Jun 21, 2011)

Joby Becker said:


> can you direct me to the "Official Rulebook" that defines these terms...lol...since you have laid it out so officially and clearly...
> 
> I was at a facility a couple weeks back, where the Training Director clearly stated to me that they were going to evaluate 4 *Green Prospects* that day...LOL...
> 
> ...


I didn't really take them from a rule book rather from a dictionary. Honestly people can buy and sell dogs pretty much however they wish but the lexicon between dogs and horses have always held similarity. The green prospects that particular training director may have been green for his uses implying that he'd need to train them and prospect as a search term. Both are ok, and can be used interchangeably just as the word kennel can mean a 10x12 dog confinement area, small box only big enough for the dog to turn around, or to describe an underground burrow of a fox. All three may be applied to dogs and all are acceptable term usages so as others have pointed out sometimes it's just needed to be very clear what you're talking about. 

So green, green broke - _*Definition: * Just learning to accept saddle, bridle, and rider or harness and vehicle._ As moved to dogs it implies some training taken place. 

Started:_*Definition: *to begin an activity or undertaking; especially *:* to begin work. 
_
Prospect:_*Definition:* a mental picture of something to come

_I guess you guys may have some terms between you flowing interchangeably but it's a little like looking to AKC world and seeing what to them defines a working dog, then going to the rest of the world what defines a working dog. I guess the only definition that matters sometimes is the one understood between two parties._
_


----------



## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Finished dog or anything else is a JOKE. If that were the case, why do you recertify a PSD?
> It is an ongoing process at all levels. I've seen Labs that were finished and looked poor under real conditions. Like when the goose that was "dead" now comes to life and pecks the hell out of the dog! Now the dog barks around it and hasn't a clue as to how to get this bugger!!!
> 
> Finished...never!#-o


Part of the PSD recerting from handler to handler wheter new or internally is usually more of the bond be proven between handler and new dog to make sure the team will indeed be a team, thats how I have seen it done and view and discussed. you are of course more than welcome to add to.


----------



## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> In all my yrs I've never seen an Irish terrier I'd take home and I always thought I wanted one because of the :-# standards. Shti loads of Pattys though.


There out there, just like ther GSDs are still out there, I have never owned but have lived with while the old man hunted with them. Theres a reason they are called the dare devil of the terrier breed when you find the right one, tenacious bastards they are.


----------



## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Melissa Thom said:


> I didn't really take them from a rule book rather from a dictionary. Honestly people can buy and sell dogs pretty much however they wish but the lexicon between dogs and horses have always held similarity. The green prospects that particular training director may have been green for his uses implying that he'd need to train them and prospect as a search term. Both are ok, and can be used interchangeably just as the word kennel can mean a 10x12 dog confinement area, small box only big enough for the dog to turn around, or to describe an underground burrow of a fox. All three may be applied to dogs and all are acceptable term usages so as others have pointed out sometimes it's just needed to be very clear what you're talking about.
> 
> So green, green broke - _*Definition: *Just learning to accept saddle, bridle, and rider or harness and vehicle._ As moved to dogs it implies some training taken place.
> 
> ...


This is why I say you need to duscuss in detail what you are exactly getting if you choose to go the route of using one of these industry terms. You can use all the terms in the world but if you dont understand what you are getting then you could find yourself jammed up.


----------



## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Finished dog or anything else is a JOKE. If that were the case, why do you recertify a PSD?
> It is an ongoing process at all levels. I've seen Labs that were finished and looked poor under real conditions. Like when the goose that was "dead" now comes to life and pecks the hell out of the dog! Now the dog barks around it and hasn't a clue as to how to get this bugger!!!
> 
> Finished...never!#-o


Finished is when a Handler/Dog complete and pass a particular certification, governed by an organization approved by that state and department. Are they done and don't need further training? Never, however they are finished and met a standard to work the street. When the dog and handler split, recerts are necessary to make sure the TEAM is trained and finished. The dog is never finished without his handler. In the sport world, I don't think that is a term that is used.


----------

