# finish



## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

ok, this isn't REALLY about a finish, just the very first step to the finish. and i'm going really SLOW.

working in the house, i started brix with a "by heel" command to assume the basic position. initially i worked him against the kitchen cupboards (for correct form) and basically lured him into position with treats.

now, when working him in open areas, he still requires the hand motion used during the luring phase (i'm not too worried about that--i can phase it out). the question: he provides a perfect basic position about 5/10x; of these 5x that his butt isn't square or he's a little behind, 4/5x all i have to do is take one step forward and he's perfect.

the fifth time he's still not right, and i will just walk away, and restart. i don't talk, treat or look at him before i restart.

oh--when i DO have to take the one step for perfect position, i DO treat him. i'm thinking this should be treated (ha ha) the same as not being in position in the first place, ie, to treat, no talk, just a restart.

am i right? cut out the treat for the one-step perfection?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Not realy sure why you used the cabinets, but the results are kinda sketchy LOL

So you started with a lure, so go back to this, and work on getting the dog correct. Mark it. How your hand is positioned, has a lot to do with where his butt ends up. if you start to fumble, not getting it right away, start over.

Get rid of the hand motion, and stop rewarding for no apparent reason. This is on you, because you are working to much at once. Gotta get the finish correct before you can start the rest.

Go over how you do each step in your head, and how the dog responds. I would then form a plan from there.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

i used the cabinets to keep his butt straight (he had no choice).

ok, so the hand motion is the lure--help me out here: i use my left hand, w/treat, "by-heel" use a U-turn motion w/hand out from my left side coming in close. he will 9.5/10x come to a perfect basic position doing this (i don't need the cabinets for good position anymore, IOW), even in the *open*. 

to refine the question (thank you jeff--you always make me think and then get a headache): when/how should i attempt to phase out the hand motion (this is where i'm having trouble)?

i think this is where i'm stuck, b/c the hand motion IS the lure....

i will certainly stop rewarding for perfect position after one step.

help me break it down even more ppl!! i want the basic position as perfect as possible b/f i even start w/one step of "fuss". 

i hope this even makes sense.....


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

You have to back to the lure, because you do not have a good final position yet.

I usually leave off other OB here, so when the dog starts "guessing", he is guessing the finish, and not the STUPID STUPID "front" : )

This will come when you start getting it right in the first place. : P


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## Amber Scott Dyer (Oct 30, 2006)

my dog was crooked. I tried doing her beside a wall, which seemed to work well, but didn't work once we got away from the wall.  I've been using a little slip lead around her flank that I run behind me and hold in my right hand to kind of "pull her straight", and that seems to be working better. It's not there for corrections, just to keep her positioning straight. Obviously she doesn't get the tug if she isn't straight.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I use food, but I lure the dog into the correct position. Using artificial devices never seems to work once you get away from them. Not enough time to give the explanation right now, gotta train.


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

The problem with using a lure is the dog is often so focused on following the food that he is really not that aware of what the rest of his body is doing. Often the small inconsistencies in postion are due to small variations in where you hold the lure.

Do you use a verbal marker or clicker? These make it easier to get away from luring sooner.

After I teach gross approximation of heeling to pups/young dogs, I use a toy in the left armpit (visible at first, then faded from sight like a food lure) in conjunction with leash pressure to move the dog. I only use the leash on the neck, usually a slip lead or with a duller dog a pinch collar. 

Just as you can move a horse various parts of his body/neck/head with subtlely different movement of the reins, a dog can be taught to move off leash pressure. The most important thing here is that the dog moves his own body. If you are pulling the dog into position he is not learning just passively being drug about.

What discipline are you training for? IPO requires a much more precise picture in the heeling than the ringsports (although I play more in the ringsports and spend far too much time on the heeling because heeling can be one of the most incredible displays of power in the working dog.)


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

ok, let's see...
amber--using the slip lead, does she get the tug if you have to use it to re-position?

lisa--unless i move to somewhere that has an option, we'll be *trying* Sch. 

all--away from the *wall*, i've been trying to fade out the treat every time. w/o the treat, he postions really well (9.5%) just with the hand motion. am i being bass-ackwards here? should i be fading the hand motion first, then start more random treat rewards? he's not yet "offering" the behavior, i'll try jeff's course of just working on this until he does, then marking the correct position. 

any more input for me?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote:because heeling can be one of the most incredible displays of power in the working dog.)
How's that??? 

It is a control, and I do not see power there. Maybe you could explain how a dog is showing power by going along with the handlers wish that he do a totally un-natural thing like "heeling"?????

HA/HA Glad you are here.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Lisa, I agree to a point about the dog being to focused on the food as a lure but that's before the dog starts underestanding the the command. 
The lure should build muscle memmory that willl eventually transfer to understanding. 
Ann, when luring the dog into position, your last hand motion should be away from the dogs face, to the left. This will swing the dog butt in closer. 
The vast majority of reasons people give for not using food is that it's so hard to wean the dog off of food. It's no harder to wean off of food then of of corrections. 
Giving a dog a command it doesn't yet understand, they cranking on it's leash is no less confusing to the dog the using food to lure a dog into position. The big diffenence is the leash correcton can take away drive. The food builds it while the dog is learning. 
Obviously both work.


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## Amber Scott Dyer (Oct 30, 2006)

ann freier said:


> ok, let's see...
> amber--using the slip lead, does she get the tug if you have to use it to re-position?


No, if she sits crooked on a halt, and I have to reposition her, we heel back off with no reward and try again. Her problem is a created one, though - when teaching her to heel, I held the tug underneath my right armpit instead of my left, and so she's expecting the reward to come from that direction now, and turns into me for the sit. If she doesn't expect a reward, for example, when we are doing the heel-in-muzzle, she sits straight because she knows the tug isn't there.


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Bob Scott said:


> Lisa, I agree to a point about the dog being to focused on the food as a lure but that's before the dog starts underestanding the the command.
> The lure should build muscle memmory that willl eventually transfer to understanding.
> Ann, when luring the dog into position, your last hand motion should be away from the dogs face, to the left. This will swing the dog butt in closer.
> The vast majority of reasons people give for not using food is that it's so hard to wean the dog off of food. It's no harder to wean off of food then of of corrections.
> ...



Well, since we have not trained together I will try to explain...

First off all, luring...I am not saying luring does not work just that it has its limitations. One of the limitations is that the dog is less aware of what his body is doing and less in a "thinking" frame of mind. Similar to the difference between following somebody when you are driving or following directions to get there. You do not think "I have to turn left at the next signal" instead you "react" by turning left when the car you are following does so. And many will agree that generally, you are less likely to remember how to get there yourself the next time.

As far as your "cranking on the leash" comment...you seem to have misunderstood my technique. I am not talking about yanking a passive dog into position by force repeatedly. My leash pressure suggestion was in response in part to Amber saying she uses a flank rope to "pull" the dog into position. "Cranking" and "pulling" move the dog into position...again the dog does not have to think about what he is doing as it is done for him.

My reference to horses may not have helped you as you may not ride but the basic concept is that a rider can shift the hip of a 1000 lb animal over 1 step with just a twitch of the finger. Teaching a dog to move off of leash pressure allows you to move the dog's body precisely into position with out the distraction of a food lure. Yes, like any prompt you do have to fade the leash pressure. The food is not taken out of the equation, it is just used where it belongs...as a reinforcer given after the correct behavior has been performed.

So I was not making an argument against the use of food or for the use of corrections...sorry if I confused you.

Lisa Maze


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

If you follow the link below you will see an example of a very young dog (four months old) who has learned to move with the leash. As you can see she is not being forced to move anywhere, the leash is never taut. As she is heeling up you will notice the handler's left hand is behind her back putting a little tension into the leash (the leash is still not taut but the dog can still feel the movement in a slip lead) to help the pup move laterally into heel position. The dog is then rewarded.

It is a tiny video in the upper right hand corner.

http://www.loupsdusoleil.com/PixieforSale.html


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Here is another one just to demonstrate how subtle the leash pressure is. On the first left about turn my hand slides slightly behind me so I can apply a little pressure to encourage this seven month old bitch to bring her hip into alignment with her shoulder on the turn. On several of the downs I drop my hand to apply subtle pressure to the leash to move her forehad down first (to avoid getting a "butt first" down) and on one of the sits I move my hand forward and up to shift her weight to the forehand to free up her hind end (to ensure a "tuck up" sit).

http://www.loupsdusoleil.com/HottieforSale.html

Neither of these videos were made to show the use of leash pressure (they were made to give an overview of each pup's obedience and they worked as both girls have been sold).

Lisa Maze


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## Lisa Geller (Mar 29, 2007)

Here's another video -- a chance to show off the baby 
Rogue at 3 months

http://www.midwestringsport.com/Rogue061120.wmv


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## steve gossmeyer (Jan 9, 2007)

nice puppy lisa


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Not getting off that easy, Lisa. How is power shown in heeling again?????

Really curious about that statement.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Not getting off that easy, Lisa. How is power shown in heeling again?????
> 
> Really curious about that statement.


I gotta say, I am too. Not arguing..... because I guess I don't get what was meant. Just looking for clarification of:

QUOTE: I play more in the ringsports and spend far too much time on the heeling because heeling can be one of the most incredible displays of power in the working dog END


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Lisa Maze said:


> Similar to the difference between following somebody when you are driving or following directions to get there. You do not think "I have to turn left at the next signal" instead you "react" by turning left when the car you are following does so. And many will agree that generally, you are less likely to remember how to get there yourself the next time.


Hey, I like this. Great analogy, might have to "steal" it from you


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Now I have to tease you, because using the words heeling and powerful dog in the same sentence like that is a Sch fallacy, and this is yet another reason this sport is junk. It makes very nice, intellegent people say stupid shit like this.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Lisa I do understand what your saying. As a totally motivational trainer I use no leash in training. 
The biggest problem most have with food training is a lack of understanding between lure, bribe and reward with food. 
It's a fine line and many have problems weaning off of food for this reason.
My club teaches focus on the eyes for reward and this is done before any heeling is done.
All training methods are only as good as the person using them and your videos show some excellent work.


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Bob Scott said:


> Lisa I do understand what your saying. As a totally motivational trainer I use no leash in training.
> The biggest problem most have with food training is a lack of understanding between lure, bribe and reward with food.
> It's a fine line and many have problems weaning off of food for this reason.
> My club teaches focus on the eyes for reward and this is done before any heeling is done.
> All training methods are only as good as the person using them and your videos show some excellent work.


Hi Bob,

Thank you for the compliment. Can I ask a few questions...do you find that an emphasis on eye contact seems to create a bit of crabbing in the heeling (where the shoulder is not aligned with the hip)? We have switched to shoulder targeting to minimize this and try always to present the reward from the left side either over their heads or from behind our backs. It is still a problems as some dogs are very motivated to make eye contact even with no training.

Without using a leash, how do you teach the dogs to keep their hip in? I have seen clicker trainers shape a step over with the hind end to the right and put it on cue and then cue the dog to move his his in if it swings wide in heeling. They are generally training for AKC obedience so use food primarily as the reward as they are trying to create a less dynamic performance. It seems like no matter how much emphasis you put on position with food, they tend to crab and forge once you start using the toy. At least the good ones do (this is related to why I think heeling can be an impressive display of power in the working dog).

Now I have seen many dogs at big trials do well with the traditional "wrap around" style of heeling but I do not care for it (it is too darn hard to walk for one.) But if that is what you are training for, this over-emphasis on hip alignment may not be of any worry to you.

Lisa

PS In the video with Pixie, Lynnea is feeding across her body with her right hand. One of Pixie's problems was a little too much sensitivity to the handler so Lynnea was trying to get her to come forward and a little closer to the handler's body.


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Not getting off that easy, Lisa. How is power shown in heeling again?????
> 
> Really curious about that statement.


Now, since you are a Mondio guy...you have to envision "Schutzhund" style heeling. When the picture is perfect we have a very animated dog who is controlling forward impulsion (he is collected) and putting this energy into vertical movement...the dog "prances". He keeps his hind end under him which frees his shoulder up allowing for a larger amount of reach.

Not all dogs are capable of this type of heeling. I find some of the same traits in a dog that make for vigilant guarding are required to make powerful heeling. The dog must not internalize too much (think of a Border Collie here) he must be able to "cap" his drive and energy so he is not bouncing all over the place. Now add to that the ability to take control and still present an energetic motivated performance and you have one of many ways to evaluate the true strength and power of a working dog.

The other thing which impacts the picture presented by the dog in the heeling is structure. If you compare the two videos you will see the second one (the older bitch) has much more reach in front. Hottie almost has a moment of suspension between strides that gives the illusion of a floating trot. Her layback of shoulder allows for nice reach and her very nicely angulated hip and stifle allow her to easily bring her rear end under her allowing her to take the weight off of the forehand to further free up her shoulder. 

When I evaluate a working dog, I take many things into consideration. When we chose to breed our girl Fauxtois to Philippe Belloni's Contes d'Hoffan dog BB, one thing that factored into my decision was that despite no emphasis on it in the training program, he had natural foucssed heeling and good structure for it. I also like his vigilence in the guarding (he tries to make eye contact) which again, no emphasis is put on in training. Add to that he is hard enough take multiple hits t the head by a two by four and you end up with a pretty nice dog:smile:

So there you go!

Lisa


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Alright, so I see a dog with a good ability to inhibit in Sch, not power. Power in my definition has NOTHING to do with listening, or inhibiting, or heeling. : P

BB is a nice dog, but the focus he has on Phillipe is exactly due to the fact that he is waiting for the compulsion, so I really do not think it is natural. I like the dog, and the gentleman just fine, so it should make an interesting breeding for you. I know it worked nicely for Sandro, just a lot of girls. We were hoping for more boys.

I did Sch back in the day, and was pretty good. I really disagree with many of the things that come out of Schutzhunders mouths, like this "power" thingy. How often does a dog with pretty OB a truely powerful dog?? Sure throw in a few hundred thousand reps in the blind and create a show tune dog, to complete the picture, but these dogs have no real power. You can clean them up in the blind with a mean face. Dogs with real power bite you in the face when you stick it out like that.

So, love ya, really cool that you are here, look forward to reading your posts, but.........no, power is not shown in heeling, just an ability to inhibit. It is after all, a totally unatural thing to do.

Say hi to Tim for me.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

A very nice example of how "power" is judged in Sch is in the photos that Steve took.

Look at the "first" place dog. Lots of power there. <rolls eyes> LOL


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## steve gossmeyer (Jan 9, 2007)

lol i agree you wanna see power thats the dog hammering decoys and such ob isnt power but repetition of behavior. power is the strength of the dog


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

steve gossmeyer said:


> lol i agree you wanna see power thats the dog hammering decoys and such ob isnt power but repetition of behavior. power is the strength of the dog


Well, what do you think accounts for some dogs looking flat under control and other dogs looking powerful? Is it all about reps and a toy dropped from under the handler's arm? If you can find a dog who shows more power in the barking and the guarding than my boy...god bless you. It is many of these same traits that allowed him to present a powerful prescence on the obedience field in SchH. Oh and I do not consider a dog who will bite the decoy in the face powerful...it is a dog who is not strong or confident enough to play by the rules.

As far as BB...I have seen Philippe train at least 25 other dogs over the years and none has come out with focussed heeling. So what do you attribute this to? Oh and Jeff, thanks for the reassurance we made the right choice with that breeding...we were worried we did not have your blessing (and with 5 males and 5 females we need all the help we can get). 

In order to breed the kind of dogs I want to train, I look at many factors. Many a dog looks like a monster until you put control on them and I do not know anyone who expects more control out of their dogs than I do. Not too many dogs playing in SchH, Mondio and French Ring are also expected to accompany their owner everywhere and do her bidding (including throwing away my trash, carrying my purse and giving me smoochies when I ask). Just because a dog can handler a decoy with a stick and a gun, it doesn't mean he is going to be able to handle a bi*** with PMS. Jeff, I know where and with whom you train and you should be able to attest to the fear even a small bi*** with PMS (do you still call it PMS after menopause?) can put in your heart.

And Jeff, you should know better than call me a SchH person, I am loyal to no sport (and some might say no man). I was "raised" on Belgian Ring and the extreme emphasis on grips is with me still today, I have trained and titled several dogs for SchH, French Ring and Mondioring. They all have their strong and weak points but it is up to the individual to test the dog not the sport.

We do not have to disagree but to dismiss my POV by saying it is one of those Schutzhund fallacies is chickensh**. What do you think an example of power off of the protection field would be? Or is the only place you judge a dog in his bitework?

Lisa Maze
www.loupsdusoleil.com
B/HOT of Feist du Loups du Soleil IPO 3, MR 3, Fr3 (1st leg), plus far too many other titles in too many venues to list


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Oops, sorry about all the bad words. As one of the posters on other lists observed, I only post when I am suffering from PMS...which I am. Now you know more than you ever wanted to know about me.

Lisa Maze

PS That does explain why my Border Terrier wouldn't come in a while ago when I called her. Dogs are so much more in tune to our moods (or moods swings as it were) than other humans. No wonder we love them.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I have no fear of that post menapausal person, and do not train with it anymore.

As far as chickenshit, this is not one of the accepted terms here on the board.

As far as the dog who nails a guy in the blind, I see a lot of decoys put their face forward to intimidate the dog. I am not talking random face bites, not my best explanation.

What you are saying is power, as in a dog that doesn't fold under pressure, comes from the frustration of waiting the reward, due to good drives. I do not see power in OB. 

Maybe you could define power, as you see it. While Feist does well in the blind, I have seen dogs with the same "power". Plus, he is not as cute as Buko, your words not mine. 

Please forgive me for calling you a Sch person, we all know what I think of that joke. How long did it take you to get to three??? 6 months??

Meanwhile I am going to enjoy your PMS from afar, where you cannot get to me.


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

It may be just a matter of terms. It is always difficult to talk dogs on a bulletin board because we do not all use the same terms or quantify them in the same way. Or maybe we just disagree.

Speaking of enjoying my PMS from afar...when do you think we will bump into each other again? Oddly, I have enjoyed our conversations (oddly because several folks thought we would butt heads when we met.) 

My dog is cuter than your dog, hands down. I was just trying to be nice in New Mexico.

How is the MR training coming now that you are on your own? You should plan a trip down to Philippe's now that you are your own man and can really put a little pressure on the dogs you are training.

Lisa


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Lisa, With eye contact I think the crabbing/wrap is often created by not keeping the shoulders square from the get go. The marker (voice or clicker) should only be given when the proper position is achieved but the dog AND the handler. This starts with the dog in perfect position sitting at the handlers side. Steps come later, then one step and halt. 
When that is correct, the rest follows pretty fast....IF the handler doesn't screw up. 
With proper training the dog soon learns to keep "eye contact" with the handler's shoulders square and looking straight ahead. 
The handlers that can't avoid looking at their dogs while they heel are the ones most likely to get the wraparound heeling. IMHO!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Training is going well, we are getting some realy good work done, and the dogs are looking real nice. Considering Buko is nearly a clone of Feist, except he is cooler, obviously he is the cutest.

Of course we get along, you are a bar person, and I am a bartender. : )
Next time we should stage a huge bru-ha-ha and send the Mondio world off tittering about nothing LOL.

As far as applying pressure, I am no longer a beginner, and do not need to put lots of pressure on a dog to see what they are. That is for the confused n00bs. : )

I was having Sandro do the work last time, as he is MY decoy, and the experience is good for him. I worked the important dog, as he wanted me to tell him what he thought of the dog.

Next time, maybe I will work some other dogs and have a bit more fun. Don't forget, I nearly ran off that poor puppy without applying much pressure at all. It is called presence. : P


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Lisa +1


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> With proper training the dog soon learns to keep "eye contact" with the handler's shoulders square and looking straight ahead.
> The handlers that can't avoid looking at their dogs while they heel are the ones most likely to get the wraparound heeling. IMHO!


i just LOVE starting a thread that takes off!!

anyway bob, now here you have me confused (cause i'm a N00B, jeff): if i'm teaching that "fuss" means "eye contact" (which i am), how do i translate THAT into correct heeling when i'm looking straight ahead with no "eye contact"? perhaps i should start another thread w/that question, as this one was simply about training the basic position, but it has evolved, so i'm leaving it (mods-do what you feel is right).

another opinion: i agree w/lisa on the "power" of OB. it demonstrates harnessed "going ahead", or "drive", and, like a higher-level dressage or eventing horse, is a beautiful thing to see. MO


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Ahhhh the n00bs and their adjustable definitions for words. Don't bother learning their meaning, just make up your own. Then you can become a famous dog trainer.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> ...Maybe you could define power...


i'm simply saying how i view the "power" in OB. that's all, and yeah, everyone here knows i know nothing, so who cares?


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

can we get back OT now?


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

You don't start with heeling with no eye contact, you start with looking at the dog. If you repeat it enough times the dog will simply understand "look up n everyones happy with me". When the dog understands to look up and try to make eye contact you can then start with all the stuff like looking away, swinging your arms etc.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Ditto with Mike! Heeling while looking straight ahead is nothing more then another distraction for the dog to work through. I look aprox 5 paces ahead of me, on the ground. It's still easy to see the dog with periphal vision. The quick looks down, especially with a head or shoulder turn are what I was talking about that can bring the dog around.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

ann freier said:


> ok, this isn't REALLY about a finish, just the very first step to the finish. and i'm going really SLOW.
> 
> working in the house, i started brix with a "by heel" command to assume the basic position. initially i worked him against the kitchen cupboards (for correct form) and basically lured him into position with treats.
> 
> ...


Ann, I start my dogs out his way too. 

With the latest dog, I didn't use a hand motion. I haven't put come to heel on a verbal cue yet. Right now the cue is just me standing straight with my hands at my sides _in loose fists_. Each successful finish, I move 2" away from the cabinet. If she is crooked, I move closer to the cabinet. If she sits straight next to the cabinet and not my leg, I do nothing and wait for her to redo it.

I'm just using operant conditioning and treats. I eliminated the lure and the hand motion. I don't know the final results yet, but it's looking good!

I think you should go back to the kitchen and eliminate the lure (but not the treat) and eliminate any motions you make. I have to do this with one of my other dogs.


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