# 15 month old GSD "puppy bowing" during Schutzhund blind work.



## Mark Yatchak

I have a 15 month old working line GSD and am a newbie to both Schutzhund and working dogs. 

I have been involved with the sport for close to a year now and am very content with my club as well as the helper. Based on my helper's perspective, my pup is very confident, has a tremendous amount of prey drive, has a fantastic on/off switch, powerful and full bite...bla bla bla. 

Not trying to "toot horns", just giving a perspective in the event it is helpful for an answer to my question. Bottom line, my pup and I are having a lot of fun and he appears he is doing very well.

We recently (month ago) started to do some blind work which consists of introducing "Triton" to the "outside" of the blind. 

A brief description of the introduction to the blind...... Usually a couple rounds of helper bite work, after winning the sleeve and "parading" I'll kick the sleeve and hold Triton by the collar while helper does his thing and Triton goes crazy. Helper will pick up the sleeve and run towards the outside of the blind and I'll grab the leash immediately. When helper is in position, I'll let the dog run to the helper but stop him short a couple feet. Triton barks, wags his tail and then goes into a "puppy bow" or just gets into a platz but still barks and wags his tail. Helper might give him a little swat on his feet to get him up, or shuffle towards him, but usually Triton wont move from his platz, but might bark more. Helper will reward with the sleeve as long as Triton continues with a strong/powerful bark, which he does. The dog will then launch from the platz into a full/hard grip.

My helper isn't overly concerned at this point and believes (if I understand correctly) one day it will just "click" and believes it's just part of maturity and excessive amounts of prey drive. I know my helper is working a bit on this behavior in ways I don't fully understand, so it wouldn't be fair for me to elaborate on what I don't understand.

I'm not overly concerned either, but am anxious to see Triton doing his thing in the blind and am fishing for suggestions/opinions which may be helpful. Anyone else have this particular issue with their dog? Perhaps I should stay out of it?



Mark


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## Kadi Thingvall

Mark Yatchak said:


> My helper isn't overly concerned at this point and believes (if I understand correctly) one day it will just "click" and believes it's just part of maturity and excessive amounts of prey drive. I know my helper is working a bit on this behavior in ways I don't fully understand, so it wouldn't be fair for me to elaborate on what I don't understand.


Based strictly on what you wrote, I don't know how a behavior that is repeatedly rewarded (barking in a down) is suddenly going to "click" into being a different behavior (barking in a sit) which hasn't been rewarded. Even if your helper does get some sits that they can reward, if they are still rewarding in the down then the dog is going to be unclear on which behavior gets the reward, and will probably start offering both, switching back and forth between the two. If the final goal is him barking in a sit, then I'd only be rewarding when he's sitting. But that's me, based on what you wrote. You did indicate there may be more going on here that you don't fully understand, it might be worth asking the helper how they plan to go from repeatedly rewarding in the down to extinguishing the down and only rewarding in a sit.


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## Mark Yatchak

Thanks much Kadi. It's amazing how the obvious isn't even remotely apparent sometimes. Your advice makes so much sense. I never thought of Triton thinking that he may be rewarded for his body position as opposed to the bark. Coincidentally, he is always rewarded by me with a ball/tug when told to platz when playing "the game" or we are simply playing and he want's what I have. 

Thinking about it a bit more, the platz is the behavior he usually searches for the most when he does want something, especially when in drive. 

Hmmm... I'll bring this up to my helper and see what he has to say. Any opinion how to get him to realize that a platz is not going to get him the sleeve, even though he is barking? Simply command a sitz? On another note, I (we?) would prefer Triton jumping up/down when transferring the bark and hold to the inside of the blind. Might this occur naturally or any further suggestions?

Thank a lot!

Mark


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## jack van strien

Walk him up to the decoy and make him sit in front of him and tell him to speak,stand very close to the decoy and put your hand on the sleeve so he cannot bite.Not a big problem i think.


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## kristin tresidder

Mark Yatchak said:


> Helper might give him a little swat on his feet to get him up, or shuffle towards him, but usually Triton wont move from his platz, but might bark more. Helper will reward with the sleeve as long as Triton continues with a strong/powerful bark, which he does. The dog will then launch from the platz into a full/hard grip.
> 
> 
> I'm not overly concerned either, but am anxious to see Triton doing his thing in the blind


 
there's nothing that says the dog has to sit during the bark & hold. if, as you say, your dog has a strong bark & hold from a 'down,' why do you want to work so hard to change it? sounds to me like he's already 'doing his thing.'


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## Keith Jenkins

kristin tresidder said:


> there's nothing that says the dog has to sit during the bark & hold. if, as you say, your dog has a strong bark & hold from a 'down,' why do you want to work so hard to change it? sounds to me like he's already 'doing his thing.'


True but if this position translates to the other guards required and subsequent re-attack, it can pose a problem with the dog getting a decent grip.


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## Chris Michalek

has the dog had any pressure put on him? Is he a pure sleeve dog or has he been taught to focus on the man?


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## Thomas Barriano

Hey Mark,

I've got a little different take on what might be happening.
I think the puppy is working totally in prey and is giving a play bow to entice the decoy closer. Next time try stopping him a little closer and see if he sits or bows/platzs. You might even not check him at all and see if he stops himself or have the decoy behind a 4 ft fence.
It sounds like your decoy is experienced (and you're not?) so I wouldn't be overly concerned and just let your decoy do his thing.





Mark Yatchak said:


> I have a 15 month old working line GSD and am a newbie to both Schutzhund and working dogs.
> 
> I have been involved with the sport for close to a year now and am very content with my club as well as the helper. Based on my helper's perspective, my pup is very confident, has a tremendous amount of prey drive, has a fantastic on/off switch, powerful and full bite...bla bla bla.
> 
> Not trying to "toot horns", just giving a perspective in the event it is helpful for an answer to my question. Bottom line, my pup and I are having a lot of fun and he appears he is doing very well.
> 
> We recently (month ago) started to do some blind work which consists of introducing "Triton" to the "outside" of the blind.
> 
> A brief description of the introduction to the blind...... Usually a couple rounds of helper bite work, after winning the sleeve and "parading" I'll kick the sleeve and hold Triton by the collar while helper does his thing and Triton goes crazy. Helper will pick up the sleeve and run towards the outside of the blind and I'll grab the leash immediately. When helper is in position, I'll let the dog run to the helper but stop him short a couple feet. Triton barks, wags his tail and then goes into a "puppy bow" or just gets into a platz but still barks and wags his tail. Helper might give him a little swat on his feet to get him up, or shuffle towards him, but usually Triton wont move from his platz, but might bark more. Helper will reward with the sleeve as long as Triton continues with a strong/powerful bark, which he does. The dog will then launch from the platz into a full/hard grip.
> 
> My helper isn't overly concerned at this point and believes (if I understand correctly) one day it will just "click" and believes it's just part of maturity and excessive amounts of prey drive. I know my helper is working a bit on this behavior in ways I don't fully understand, so it wouldn't be fair for me to elaborate on what I don't understand.
> 
> I'm not overly concerned either, but am anxious to see Triton doing his thing in the blind and am fishing for suggestions/opinions which may be helpful. Anyone else have this particular issue with their dog? Perhaps I should stay out of it?
> 
> 
> 
> Mark


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## Chris Michalek

Thomas Barriano said:


> Hey Mark,
> 
> I've got a little different take on what might be happening.
> I think the puppy is working totally in prey and is giving a play bow to entice the decoy closer. Next time try stopping him a little closer and see if he sits or bows/platzs. You might even not check him at all and see if he stops himself or have the decoy behind a 4 ft fence.
> It sounds like your decoy is experienced (and you're not?) so I wouldn't be overly concerned and just let your decoy do his thing.



That's what I'm thinking too. It's all a game to the dog and it's time to make it a little more serious.


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## James Larkey

Chris Michalek said:


> That's what I'm thinking too. It's all a game to the dog and it's time to make it a little more serious.


I have watched this dog work. It is not all a game. He is VERY serious, but, switches from a clear picture of prey to aggression / aggression to prey. This is a very nice dog. Wow!

My female shepherd did a lot of 'bowing' or laying down in protection between a year and a year and a half, but, the behavior more or less faded without giving it any special attention.


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## Chris Michalek

James Larkey said:


> I have watched this dog work. It is not all a game. He is VERY serious, but, switches from a clear picture of prey to aggression / aggression to prey. This is a very nice dog. Wow!
> 
> My female shepherd did a lot of 'bowing' or laying down in protection between a year and a year and a half, but, the behavior more or less faded without giving it any special attention.



Great. Let's see some video.


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## Thomas Barriano

Chris Michalek said:


> Great. Let's see some video.



I've seen a couple of Schutzhund titled Rottweillers do the play bow thing. Trying to entice the decoy closer so he can nail him


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## Chris Michalek

Thomas Barriano said:


> I've seen a couple of Schutzhund titled Rottweillers do the play bow thing. Trying to entice the decoy closer so he can nail him


Mine used to do that then the helper started stomping on his ass whenever he started with that shit and that fixed it. We also did a few sessions were the dog was back tied on a bungee attached to one collar, then we had another line attached to a Prong. The helper had the prong line and would give rhythmic yanks to create conflict. That's what got the dog to really start bouncing.


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## Mark Yatchak

Chris Michalek said:


> has the dog had any pressure put on him? Is he a pure sleeve dog or has he been taught to focus on the man?


Triton definitely has pressure applied to him by the helper. My helper is a bit "old school" and will (with the right dog) take a dog much further than the "traditional" Schutzhund methods of bite work. I would go as far as to say his methods may upset/shock many that are accustomed to "purely positive" or other methods used by many clubs. 

Again, I want to reiterate that he will only do this with the dogs that he feels are capable. On the flip side, my helper will take dogs in that another club has rejected. It's my understanding that he does it for the experience and challenge. 

I realize that I may have not written the above in a very eloquent manner and it could be perceived in a negative way. As I mentioned in my first post, I'm very new to the sport. Add the fact that I'm not very good at writing and I can easily stick my foot in my mouth. 8-[ 



kristin tresidder said:


> there's nothing that says the dog has to sit during the bark & hold. if, as you say, your dog has a strong bark & hold from a 'down,' why do you want to work so hard to change it? sounds to me like he's already 'doing his thing.'


Well.... he certainly barks, but I honestly cant say its a always a "strong" bark as he sometimes "yips" like a puppy.  



Thomas Barriano said:


> Hey Mark,
> 
> I've got a little different take on what might be happening.
> I think the puppy is working totally in prey and is giving a play bow to entice the decoy closer. Next time try stopping him a little closer and see if he sits or bows/platzs. You might even not check him at all and see if he stops himself or have the decoy behind a 4 ft fence.
> It sounds like your decoy is experienced (and you're not?) so I wouldn't be overly concerned and just let your decoy do his thing.


Agreed. We see Triton searching for other behaviors even when in a platz in the blind. He may nip at the helpers ankle, shin or knee cap in the attempt of making something happen. Which I guess is good in a way.

Jim, thanks for the nice words!

Chris, I will attempt to post some video. Although I'm thinking the three of us (helper, Triton and I) may get an earful! That's ok though, I'll put my dumb ass out there for all the world to see. I have no problem with constructive criticism or negative criticism when it comes to bettering the "team".

Everyone else, I really appreciate the time and advice. Thanks for all your help. =D>

Mark


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## Rick Mattox

Mark I think you should just get rid of that women bitter! I have an empty kennel right here that he can go in.  It was good seeing him at training last night.


Rick


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## Howard Gaines III

The bow or play bow is a submissive position. I like what Jack wrote, walk him up. If the bark is good and you aren't trying to get a thousands barks before rewarding the bite, and if the defense by the decoy isn't extreme, it's a confidence issue or a training issue, IMO.

Long line, B&H, lots of handler praise and not decoy praise, then after 2 bites but him up...


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## Mark Yatchak

*Re: 15 month old GSD "puppy bowing" during Schutzhund blind work. (ADDED VIDEO LINK)*



Chris Michalek said:


> Great. Let's see some video.


One of our club members - "Jim" was nice enough to take take this video and upload it for me. 

Coincidentally, Triton didn't do quite as much puppy bowing in this video as seen in the past (although he still does some in the video), which I guess is good thing. 

We have pretty much been concentrating on sticking with training outside blind work for now (past 3-4 weeks) as this is the next stage of training which needs the most work. We usually end the session with a couple long bites. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CR00iiUNwSs

Mark


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## James Downey

First, I think the video shows good work by the helper, dog and handler. THe dog seems to have a little edge to him. And the bowing in the vid, maybe from the pressure of the long line. But You said it has been worse. 

But I do think Howard is spot on. That thier maybe some confidence issues. But nothing to bad that the dog cannot be helped to be stronger. 

An approach I would try. Is just not doing the B&H at the field and see if the dog matures a little more....doing some more drills that the dog is more confident in. 

At home I would do the work with the dog, using a tug and keeping the dog's drives low. Maybe using food if that keeps things calmer. simply sitting the dog where they should be, asking for a bark and marking for correct behavior. If the dog play bows, I would mark with a no, and reset the dog in position. tell them good. and ask for a bark. If the dog keeps play bowing. I would stop asking for a bark, and sit the dog where he needs to be, and just rewarding for the sit. then maybe adding the bark after 3 or 4 sessions. marking with a no, if the dog bows and starting over. Have patience and remember, your going to win here. when you get what you want. take it to the field...you do the work for the dog...till it's reliable there. Maybe adding the decoy for one bite a session. Till your confident the dog understands that play bowing is not going to get a bite. At this point I would mark with a no if the dog play bows and start over. maybe rewarding a few barks earlier so the dog does not play bow. But if the dog always gets to bark nice, then play bow, the bark nice, then reward. That will become the patteren in the dogs mind that earns a reward.


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## Chris Michalek

How long have you been working with that helper? He's creating issues.


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## James Downey

Chris what issues do you see. Just curious. I do not know if I would tease the dog after the out. The dog is a bit edgy when he does this. But the dog shifts in out of drive really nice.


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## Mark Yatchak

Chris Michalek said:


> How long have you been working with that helper? He's creating issues.


Triton and I both started for the first time, at the same time - when he was four months old. It will be a year next month. 

If you have the time and desire, I would really appreciate further thoughts on what particular issues you see that you may not care for.

Again, I am new to the sport and am very open to any thoughts whether negative or positive. Last thing I want is an everlasting problem. I realize not everyone agrees with any one method, but I would like to decide that for myself.

James, I appreciate your comments and advice - very much.

Mark


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## Chris Michalek

James Downey said:


> Chris what issues do you see. Just curious. I do not know if I would tease the dog after the out. The dog is a bit edgy when he does this. But the dog shifts in out of drive really nice.



Not a good helper for this dog. 

The dog needs more work in prey. The dog stays down because there is too much pressure for him. The helper is keeping the dog in defense. He needs to stop being frontal all the time and the ****er needs to look away once in awhile. All the dog sees is a man with a crab claw and stick while he towers over him with that deep gaze and hisses.......

Good thing you don't have a total shitter but you're on track to **** that dog up.


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## James Downey

Chris Michalek said:


> Not a good helper for this dog.
> 
> The dog needs more work in prey. The dog stays down because there is too much pressure for him. The helper is keeping the dog in defense. He needs to stop being frontal all the time and the ****er needs to look away once in awhile. All the dog sees is a man with a crab claw and stick while he towers over him with that deep gaze and hisses.......
> 
> Good thing you don't have a total shitter but you're on track to **** that dog up.


 
I do think that Chris has valid points here. And I did not see it till he said something. I was really focused on watching the dog for the play bow. After reviewing the video again. I do see it. I also think that dog is strong enough right now you do not see many real big red flags. But the eratic barking after the out is one. I think that maybe with a decoy who works on maybe building the dog a little more you may see the play bow go away. And no need for long and elaborate training at home. and nothing against your Decoy...He is after all there helping you. Which I applaud. 

I also think Chris is right about Triton. I am not a big GSD fan, But I do like how the dog can shift out of defense and recover immediatley.


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## jack van strien

Mark,
Now that i have seen the video i can ad a few things.
first of all a dog that has a good bite like yours does not need to be run around in circles,this is only for pups if you think that may drop the sleeve.
After the out the decoy should not be civil with the dog at all,ideally you should put the dog on a down stay ,pick up the sleeve yourself slowly and put it on the decoys arm also very slowly.The decoy should walk away without eye contact and *Without *moving that stick at all.Better yet take the stick away from him.If you want to have the dog sit and bark then walk the dog to the decoy and have the decoy wait for him with the sleeve raised to chest level.
It looks to me the decoy is trying to tower the dog and using the stick to keep him at a distance.Imo if you take the stick away from the decoy in the blind you will see a total different picture!
Look at the video, the dog is barking at the sleeve but the sleeve is way to low.Raise the sleeve and his focus will also be raised.Teach the dog first what you want before you send him to do something he does not understand yet.I think you have a good dog and there is not a big issue i think.If the decoy is worried about being bit:lol:,stand close enough so you can help both of them.
Happy training.


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## Chris Michalek

here's a pretty good example of what is happening with your dog. Same Scenario as what you're working on except my dog is a step more advanced than yours.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krcBBY6xeSE


You'll see that he goes into the blind and barks, as long as the helper is passive the dog feels strong. Notice at :25 the helper adds a little pressure be staring at the dog. Then at :32 the helper adds more pressure and what does the dog do? He lays down. Just like your dog does. 

The difference between my helper and yours is, my guy knows what is going on. He's working to build the dog by putting a little pressure on him and then he relieves it. Notice that my helper takes a step back to let the dog feel powerful about his bite. Your helper stay full frontal... DEFENSE DEFENSE then he chunks it in your dog's mouth. That's not something that make the dog feel like he is winning. 

In short, there is way too much stress on your dog and if you don't get him more relief sooner, you're going to break him and then he'll be an expensive house pet.


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## James Downey

jack van strien said:


> Mark,
> Now that i have seen the video i can ad a few things.
> first of all a dog that has a good bite like yours does not need to be run around in circles,this is only for pups if you think that may drop the sleeve.
> After the out the decoy should not be civil with the dog at all,ideally you should put the dog on a down stay ,pick up the sleeve yourself slowly and put it on the decoys arm also very slowly.The decoy should walk away without eye contact and *Without *moving that stick at all.Better yet take the stick away from him.If you want to have the dog sit and bark then walk the dog to the decoy and have the decoy wait for him with the sleeve raised to chest level.
> It looks to me the decoy is trying to tower the dog and using the stick to keep him at a distance.Imo if you take the stick away from the decoy in the blind you will see a total different picture!
> Look at the video, the dog is barking at the sleeve but the sleeve is way to low.Raise the sleeve and his focus will also be raised.Teach the dog first what you want before you send him to do something he does not understand yet.I think you have a good dog and there is not a big issue i think.If the decoy is worried about being bit:lol:,stand close enough so you can help both of them.
> Happy training.


 
Not that my opinion matters much....But I think Jack has some great advice also. The whole running in circles thing is a good for a dog that needs to run so they do not spit the sleeve. but your dog has a nice bite.

I do have a question Jack....Why after the out, do you like the dog in a down stay and put the sleeve on the decoy slowly? I have never heard of this.


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## Chris Michalek

James Downey said:


> I do have a question Jack....Why after the out, do you like the dog in a down stay and put the sleeve on the decoy slowly? I have never heard of this.



I do that to. For me it's just a control thing and a wind down moment especially for my mali who's generally spun like a top when there is a decoy in sight.


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## Chris Michalek

Mark here's another vid that came to mind. Your handling skills need a little work. This vid is exactly what you are working on in your vid. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8k8Q_-Af6k

In your vid, you're allowing the restraining the dog from getting to the helper. Notice the handler in my vid, the dog is getting checked and pop at some imaginary line. Do you see how the handler attempts to keep slack in the line? That's what you need to do. Don't let your dog push into the line, check him and give him a few pops to let him know you want him to stop with the pulling shit.


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## jack van strien

james,
In this case i would do it because the dog can stay calm and focused before he is being send it again but it will only help if the dog is walked up to the passive decoy in the blind after.Imo the dog is send to the blind on his own too early, he is going for a bite but the long line stops him from doing so and on top of that the decoy is keeping the dog at bay with the stick.Another way of easing tension is let the dog present the sleeve to the decoy at this stage when the decoy is in the blind.


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## andreas broqvist

I just thaugt about this, Why do almost always Sch helper goot sutsh a hardon for the wipp?
Every seminare/Sch traning "with only sch peopel" they ALWAYS use the wip.
The downt even look at the dog first, Just bring it on with tah wiping.

If we start a dog in my normal traning groip we look at the dog, if it has egnuf drive on its own why wuld I use a Wipp. 
One shepard has started of to melow, to get her wher we wanted I started using the wipp and she turnd on good. A cupple of setions of this and she turns on realy well without a wipp.

What is the purpus of using a wip in every traning, one every dog, regardles of drive?


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## Mark Yatchak

Fantastic and valuable advice guys, thanks to each of you for your help. 

The consensus seems to be that the dog is still "solid" enough mentally and has not been ruined (yet) by to much defense work, but it may be a matter of time before he goes down the crapper. Another words, you guy's believe he will be fine (based on what you see in the video) provided the training shifts as suggested?

What happens to a dog mentally, either on or off the field when a dog cracks because of to much pressure or defensive work? My dog lives in the house with me (another topic, I know) and I'm curious as to what tell tale signs I may see that he is beginning to "lose" it. 

Perhaps this question should be asked in a separate thread? I don't want to lose focus of the topic being discussed, but if any cares to shed some light, I'm all ears.


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## Thomas Barriano

Mark Yatchak said:


> Fantastic and valuable advice guys, thanks to each of you for your help.
> 
> The consensus seems to be that the dog is still "solid" enough mentally and has not been ruined (yet) by to much defense work, but it may be a matter of time before he goes down the crapper. Another words, you guy's believe he will be fine (based on what you see in the video) provided the training shifts as suggested?
> 
> What happens to a dog mentally, either on or off the field when a dog cracks because of to much pressure or defensive work? My dog lives in the house with me (another topic, I know) and I'm curious as to what tell tale signs I may see that he is beginning to "lose" it.
> 
> >Hey Mark
> 
> >It could be real obvious by the dog running for the car
> >when confronted by the decoy. It could just be a subtle
> >lowering of the ears or turning the head. Each dog is
> >different, the more time you spend training your dog the
> >better you'll get at "reading" your own dog. The older the
> >dog gets the more likely he'll be to be able to take more
> >pressure and defense. Defense isn't bad. You need a decoy
> >that knows how to channel the dog back into prey when the
> >dog show signs of stress when worked in defense.
> 
> Perhaps this question should be asked in a separate thread? I don't want to lose focus of the topic being discussed, but if any cares to shed some light, I'm all ears.


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## Howard Gaines III

Jack I like your assessment. A few thoughts from the video Mark:

I would have a slight "heart to heart" w/you about your handler work! BE A POST...the poor leash skills in the beginning can get your decoy hurt. *Posts don't move, an inch is equal to accident waiting to happen.*
Wear gloves with those nylon lines. This keeps you from having hand burns.
The long line is being mess with too much. Your focus should be dog and decoy...
Your focus and calm praise with the dog are very good.
I would "out" in a calmer tone.
Sleeve kick back is good too, never bend down to throw it back!
The decoy work was good but far too much defense, unless that is what this was all about. Everytime the decoy is getting the sleeve, he's pumping up the dog. Why?

More prey should be used with this dog, IMO, that includes more side movement on the B&H with the sleeve bite. Get rid of the stick. It isn't doing anything with the "test." Defense is already being showcased by the dog.

Overall I like the dog and have had Shepherds. The ecoy seems to have worked in a safe manner but less defense would be nice. Handler skills were better in the video, but BE A POST!!!

From the armchair central in Delaware...........Train well and have fun!!!


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## Howard Gaines III

Mark Yatchak said:


> ...
> What happens to a dog mentally, either on or off the field when a dog cracks because of to much pressure or defensive work? My dog lives in the house with me (another topic, I know) and I'm curious as to what tell tale signs I ...


 Too much defense: I have seen crap bites, eyes shut down, piano style bites on the sleeve, popping off the sleeve, failure to go for the bite. We test 90% of the time and train for10%. Is there a problem with that methodology?

The dog is like a tire, you don't need to pump it up when it's full of air. Enjoy the ride. If it doesn't hold "air" you need to review the tire and dealership! :-k


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## James Larkey

Howard Gaines III said:


> The decoy work was good but far too much defense, unless that is what this was all about.


Good observation! This dog was being worked much less defensively. While watching at club a few weeks ago, I would see Triton completely lay down in the blind with a high pitched 'Yip'. Total prey, despite some defense already in the Helper work. A little more defense in the Helper work, and the whole picture started to look much better, but, it is a balancing act. I believe the Helper is trying a few things to see what works for this dog...And what doesn't. lol

Good discussion!


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## jack van strien

James,
Sorry but i can not agree with you,i have not seen the dog at the club but imo the dog is pushed too much into something he does not understand yet and he should not be send into the blind alone.I have not seen a puppy bow at all,it is not play for him but something more serious.Can you explain some more?


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## James Larkey

jack van strien said:


> James,
> Sorry but i can not agree with you,i have not seen the dog at the club but imo the dog is pushed too much into something he does not understand yet and he should not be send into the blind alone.I have not seen a puppy bow at all,it is not play for him but something more serious.Can you explain some more?


I wish there was video of it. Triton was obviously in 'prey' when entering the blind a short while back and puppy bowing. This dog just switches between drives quite readily. What was seen in the video was nowhere close to what this dog looked like in the blind a short while ago. 

I watched my dog 'puppy bow' for half a year and still see a 'bow' on rare occasion, but, she was kept in total 'prey' until about 2 1/2 to 3 years old. 

I agree that the dog is seeing something that it does not understand yet. I am not saying that keeping the level of defense where it is at is the right thing to do. It is about finding balance.


----------



## Chris Michalek

Howard Gaines III said:


> The decoy work was good but far too much defense, unless that is what this was all about. Everytime the decoy is getting the sleeve, he's pumping up the dog. Why?



You think he's a good helper? I wouldn't let that guy near my dogs. 

What makes you think the helper has a clue about building and progressing a dog?


----------



## Chris Michalek

James Larkey said:


> a few weeks ago, I would see Triton completely lay down in the blind with a high pitched 'Yip'.


I'd have to see and hear it but seeing the way this helper works I'd say that yip was the dog that cracked a little under the pressure.


----------



## James Larkey

Chris Michalek said:


> I'd have to see and hear it but seeing the way this helper works I'd say that yip was the dog that cracked a little under the pressure.


Triton was a happy puppy barking for his 'ball'. lol


----------



## Howard Gaines III

Chris Michalek said:


> You think he's a good helper? I wouldn't let that guy near my dogs.
> 
> What makes you think the helper has a clue about building and progressing a dog?


Chris we're not talking about the building process, only what one could see in a short video. This is one of the reasons I don't post videos here, some would love to make a broadbrushed statement and call it done.

I still fell this decoy, and one who I don't know, did a good, safe job of working the dog! He didn't work it in the drives needed for the actions the dogs was showing, something Jack has been call to. But the catches and sleeve work were safe, didn't throw 100% defense on the animal, and did use care in the stick hits.

Now with that said, the dog should be worked in as much prey as possible, the defensive techniques which the decoy used were wrong or in excess. Why pump it up? The dog is already in high defensive drive. Calm and less fight is what might allow this dog to increase the barking without viewing it as play. 

The yip and cracking under pressure, Chris, come to Delaware...*IF the dog cracked under pressure, you would see full blown avoidance. *The yip as I see it is a play or light prey form of communcations. I wish I would video dogs falling apart under "pressure." Killa dawgs taught to be PPDs and fail basic prey tests here...now that's falling apart. Glad we all can be K-9 armchair QBs. And the nice part is we can still talk!!!!!
He could work my dogs, but we would talk about what I want to see from him in the helper/decoy mode.


----------



## Chris Michalek

James Larkey said:


> Triton was a happy puppy barking for his 'ball'. lol



I don't know because I have nothing to based it on. But to me generally BARK BARK BARK YIP BARK.. is a sign dog is feeling a little too much pressure.


----------



## Howard Gaines III

Chris Michalek said:


> I don't know because I have nothing to based it on. But to me generally BARK BARK BARK YIP BARK.. is a sign dog is feeling a little too much pressure.


 Chris I'm glad you see it that way and you might be right. I see it as K-9 communication in a high tone that didn't show it was hurt and gimped off. It stayed within the elements of the game or training scenario. Often high pitches can be a dog in extreme prey mode, excitement... In either case..post away dude.


----------



## Chris Michalek

Howard,

I saw a helper that worked that young dog with too much pressure. The dog was never relieved. The helper didn't offer a side profile, didn't glace away, never stopped making eye contact. He has to train the dog and not just be dude with a sleeve who thinks he knows what he's doing.

Dog sees rabbit. Dog chases rabbit. Dog strikes and bites rabbit. We can agree on that right? BUT have you ever heard about a rabbit giving up and simply jumping into the dogs mouth? **** NO! Do you know why we never hear of such stories? Because that shit isn't natural. 

So tell me, either you agree it ok to chunk the sleeve into dog's mouth or you didn't notice. And if you don't notice little things like that then perhaps you should reevaluate your own skills. I don't claim to be any kind of dog guru but I know what I see and I know what is good for a dog. 

EVERY session should build the dog in one way or another that why we call it dog training. That dog was clearly under a lot of stress and the helper does nothing to relieve it. So yeah, it's only one session that I've seen, but I see a helper who doesn't know how to build a dog or doesn't give a shit about building a dog. A see a helper who acts like he's more powerful than the dog 100% of the time, I see a helper that doesn't understand basic things that make a dog feel powerful and I see a helper that doesn't understand the basic mechanics of nature and how a dog gets a reward.

Why is Mark allowed to handle the dog the way he does? I understand it's one video but that one vid so far tells me know body knows what they are doing or the people who know, don't give a shit about Mark or his dog. The dog is on the path the being screwed up.




Howard Gaines III said:


> Chris we're not talking about the building process, only what one could see in a short video. This is one of the reasons I don't post videos here, some would love to make a broadbrushed statement and call it done.
> 
> I still fell this decoy, and one who I don't know, did a good, safe job of working the dog! He didn't work it in the drives needed for the actions the dogs was showing, something Jack has been call to. But the catches and sleeve work were safe, didn't throw 100% defense on the animal, and did use care in the stick hits.
> 
> Now with that said, the dog should be worked in as much prey as possible, the defensive techniques which the decoy used were wrong or in excess. Why pump it up? The dog is already in high defensive drive. Calm and less fight is what might allow this dog to increase the barking without viewing it as play.
> 
> The yip and cracking under pressure, Chris, come to Delaware...*IF the dog cracked under pressure, you would see full blown avoidance. *The yip as I see it is a play or light prey form of communcations. I wish I would video dogs falling apart under "pressure." Killa dawgs taught to be PPDs and fail basic prey tests here...now that's falling apart. Glad we all can be K-9 armchair QBs. And the nice part is we can still talk!!!!!
> He could work my dogs, but we would talk about what I want to see from him in the helper/decoy mode.


----------



## Adam Rawlings

Mark,

You have a nice dog, take everything your being told with a grain of salt. Talk with your helper and discuss what's happening and see what he thinks. I really don't think your dog is on verge of ruin.


----------



## James Downey

andreas broqvist said:


> I just thaugt about this, Why do almost always Sch helper goot sutsh a hardon for the wipp?
> Every seminare/Sch traning "with only sch peopel" they ALWAYS use the wip.
> The downt even look at the dog first, Just bring it on with tah wiping.
> 
> If we start a dog in my normal traning groip we look at the dog, if it has egnuf drive on its own why wuld I use a Wipp.
> One shepard has started of to melow, to get her wher we wanted I started using the wipp and she turnd on good. A cupple of setions of this and she turns on realy well without a wipp.
> 
> What is the purpus of using a wip in every traning, one every dog, regardles of drive?


I think the old school thought was it provoked more aggression out of the dog. But I see where your going. That usually once the whip is gone, the dog goes back to it's normal drive level.I think for the most part...many trainers that are having success are getting away from this. I have seen the whip now used as a part of the proofing process instead of being used to evoke drive. Like my dog would want to leave me and go get the guy cracking the whip. So we made her heel around and started cracking the whip...if the dog behaved the decoy came to the dog and gave her a bite. So, instead of using it to create drive, we used it as a distraction. Now if she hears a whip, she wants to heel...or do whatever is being asked of her. instead of just going into overdrive.


----------



## James Downey

Adam Rawlings said:


> Mark,
> 
> You have a nice dog, take everything your being told with a grain of salt. Talk with your helper and discuss what's happening and see what he thinks. I really don't think your dog is on verge of ruin.


 
I agree with both Adam and Chris. I do not think that the dog will be ruined by the work being done. But I also do not think the dog will not reach his full potential and many things will be stiffled. Over the long term the cumlative build up of being pressured like this will have an effect. I think the dog is strong enough to keep working but overtime may start to not enjoy the work as much as he could. 

That being said, this is the process of training. Mark will train...see the results and make adjustments. Then repeat the process. Finally coming to his own conclusions on what works and what does not. I am going to give mark credit here for being an intellgent human being and say that if he does start to see some negative effects of the training. He will change. and what he sees positive, he will continue to do. 

Just as the laws of learning apply to the dog, they apply to the handler. And the only thing that blocks this for me...is being totally convinced to myself, that I am right despite the outcome. And I have done this, and I have seen many others get totally chained to this. They are so convinced they have arrived as a dog trainer they are unwilling to see it anyone elses way. Theres a qoute that I read often...and try everyday to not let it be the truth for me and it is:

"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which can not fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance-that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
--HERBERT SPENCER

So I think that trying to avoid every pitfall is never going to work...You have to make mistakes. You have that experience. You also hneed to ave people like Chris who seems to have a pretty good eye for this point things out to you so you know what to look for. None of this is for not. It's all valuable information.


----------



## James Downey

It's also worth stating that there is a learning curve for the decoy...He maybe making mistakes but the princpals apply to him to. If he's not allowed to practise, try things and have results...he will never get better. So I would not toss the towel in on him just yet. He needs this, just as much as the dog does. We all want the best, National level helper work...national level dogs....I know I did. And someone who was my friend, was a friend enough to say. When have you taken a dog to the nationals? That put things in prespective for me.


----------



## Trish Campbell

Hey Mark,

Its so hard to watch one video and really give much input without sounding like an arm chair quarterback  Plus we all know as trainers, sometimes all we agree on is that we disagree. Sent you an email, but briefly just a few observations..

He's a young dog still-15 months, he has aggression but he lacks maturity yet, if that makes sense? As he becomes more mature, he can handle that aggression better. I've had these lines and bred them for some time now. It's there...Sounds like he switches drives well, I know he has strong prey drives, he has defense. I don't think he really understands what he's supposed to be doing, so time to back up. 

Its all about a good foundation and not rushing. When you start with a puppy, it's so hard watching the older dogs get worked in club, you feel like your never going to get there. Then your dog gets older, you see him progressing, then inevitably you hit a bump in the road. Happens to everyone. Plus we all make mistakes on our dogs-doesn't mean it leads to ruin. The important part of training is to lay the groundwork so you can then go on to compete for many years. Sometimes you have to take a step back and find a new way to approach the problem..learning curve for people too with dog training.

Sent you an email to see if I can hook you up with some other friends to maybe meet up with. Maybe you could take a road trip to Minneapolis, train with Nitro's half brother


----------



## jack van strien

James,
What i understand is you are the breeder of Triton?If you know what is going on and you see the dog working then why didn't you help out a few weeks ago?
From where i see it this is not a very big problem to overcome.I don't want to step on anyones toes but i read a lot of opinions but very little solutions,Mark is asking for help and all he gets is bla bla bla, drive this and that.
I am very sure i could fix this in a few sessions but then again that is easy to say while i am here in Thailand.
In the sunshine i might ad.
happy training.


----------



## Mark Yatchak

jack van strien said:


> James,
> What i understand is you are the breeder of Triton?If you know what is going on and you see the dog working then why didn't you help out a few weeks ago?
> From where i see it this is not a very big problem to overcome.I don't want to step on anyones toes but i read a lot of opinions but very little solutions,Mark is asking for help and all he gets is bla bla bla, drive this and that.
> I am very sure i could fix this in a few sessions but then again that is easy to say while i am here in Thailand.
> In the sunshine i might ad.
> happy training.


Hi Jack,

James is not the breeder of my dog, he is a club member and the one who shot the video. 

The post above your last post which was written by Trish Campbell from Triton Kennels is actually my breeder. Triton from Triton kennels you might ask!? I call my dog "Triton", but his kennel name is actually "Nitro" Vom Triton :smile:


----------



## Howard Gaines III

Chris Michalek said:


> Howard,
> 
> I saw a helper that worked that young dog with too much pressure. The dog was never relieved. The helper didn't offer a side profile, didn't glace away, never stopped making eye contact. He has to train the dog and not just be dude with a sleeve who thinks he knows what he's doing.
> 
> Dog sees rabbit. Dog chases rabbit. Dog strikes and bites rabbit. We can agree on that right? BUT have you ever heard about a rabbit giving up and simply jumping into the dogs mouth? **** NO! Do you know why we never hear of such stories? Because that shit isn't natural.
> 
> So tell me, either you agree it ok to chunk the sleeve into dog's mouth or you didn't notice. And if you don't notice little things like that then perhaps you should reevaluate your own skills. I don't claim to be any kind of dog guru but I know what I see and I know what is good for a dog.
> 
> *EVERY session should build the dog in one way or another that why we call it dog training. That dog was clearly under a lot of stress and the helper does nothing to relieve it.* So yeah, it's only one session that I've seen, but I see a helper who doesn't know how to build a dog or doesn't give a shit about building a dog. A see a helper who acts like he's more powerful than the dog 100% of the time, I see a helper that doesn't understand basic things that make a dog feel powerful and I see a helper that doesn't understand the basic mechanics of nature and how a dog gets a reward.
> 
> Why is Mark allowed to handle the dog the way he does? I understand it's one video but that one vid so far tells me know body knows what they are doing or the people who know, don't give a shit about Mark or his dog. The dog is on the path the being screwed up.


 I agree, the sleeve was positioned AT the dog, this is a minor form of defense. Fighting with the dog when he was going to pick it up wasn't needed. Wabbits! I had some as a kid and at the same time we had BCs. One buck jumped up into the face of the dog and tried a doubled back kick. Never mage it into the mouth!

Stress here was seen and I called it. The basic catches looked safe and stick work too. Again, I think we maybe srring alot of the same wrong moes when working this dog. The reason I said I would have a heart to heart if he worked my dog.

Chris this is one of the reason I don't let just anyone work my dogs, like kids, someoone can screw them up and then the damage can set you back months or years. The handler/leash skilss were poor and the decoy could have taken a bad bite. And there was far too many forms of defense put on the dog without the dog feeling strong and successful. 

Hard to tell all on a short vid.


----------



## Mike Scheiber

Mark Yatchak said:


> Hi Jack,
> 
> James is not the breeder of my dog, he is a club member and the one who shot the video.
> 
> The post above your last post which was written by Trish Campbell from Triton Kennels is actually my breeder. Triton from Triton kennels you might ask!? I call my dog "Triton", but his kennel name is actually "Nitro" Vom Triton :smile:


Mark I'm sending you a PM see my sig


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## Trish Campbell

jack van strien said:


> James,From where i see it this is not a very big problem to overcome.I don't want to step on anyones toes but i read a lot of opinions but very little solutions,Mark is asking for help and all he gets is bla bla bla, drive this and that.[/SIZE]
> I am very sure i could fix this in a few sessions but then again that is easy to say while i am here in Thailand.
> In the sunshine i might ad.
> happy training.


Agreed...also hard to try to give suggestions, fix over the internet vs being there in person, taking the leash and showing him  

Sent you some ideas Mark..


----------



## James Larkey

jack van strien said:


> James,
> What i understand is you are the breeder of Triton?If you know what is going on and you see the dog working then why didn't you help out a few weeks ago?
> From where i see it this is not a very big problem to overcome.I don't want to step on anyones toes but i read a lot of opinions but very little solutions,Mark is asking for help and all he gets is bla bla bla, drive this and that.
> I am very sure i could fix this in a few sessions but then again that is easy to say while i am here in Thailand.
> In the sunshine i might ad.
> happy training.


The helper also feels that this is not a big problem to overcome and has confidence in that. I don't see it as a big problem, either. As I stated earlier, my Shepherd did the same thing in protection, including a higher pitched bark or yip, when young and being worked in total 'prey'. Her puppy bow looked the same as Triton's when he was starting on the bark and hold. No, my shepherd was not ready to crack from pressure. She was a puppy barking for her 'ball', trying to activate the 'game' with her bark. All prey. Thomas described the behavior very well....



Thomas Barriano said:


> _...I think the puppy is working totally in prey and is giving a play bow to entice the decoy closer...
> 
> ...I've seen a couple of Schutzhund titled Rottweillers do the play bow thing. Trying to entice the decoy closer so he can nail him..._


Triton has been training with this helper since four months of age. I have only seen training from the past two months, but, know that Triton has a good foundation. I have watched this helper work with several young dogs and he makes a great 'rabbit' for the younger dogs. He knows how to work dogs in prey, but, as Howard observed, that is not what this training session was about. As I said, Triton was worked much less defensively in the past. 



Chris Michalek said:


> That's what I'm thinking too. It's all a game to the dog and it's time to make it a little more serious.


 That was considered and the helper did provide a more serious picture over a couple training sessions to see how it went. The posted video is the result. The puppy bow as originally seen disappeared and the B&H began to look better, but, like jack said, the dog does not fully understand what is expected yet, so, time to reevaluate...

More balanced drive promotion. Less defense. More prey. Good advice. That is the 'balance' I was referring to earlier.



jack van strien said:


> Walk him up to the decoy and make him sit in front of him and tell him to speak,stand very close to the decoy and put your hand on the sleeve so he cannot bite.Not a big problem i think.


A week or two back, I watched Mark approach the Helper in a more controlled manner similar to what Jack suggested to get a bite. Mark prevented his dog from laying down and the bark was rewarded from the sit. Simple advice that seemed to help the dog understand where the reward came from.


----------



## Al Curbow

Howard, post some video of what you're saying.......lol

I like the dog, just seems confused.


----------



## Howard Gaines III

Al Curbow said:


> Howard, post some video of what you're saying.......lol
> 
> I like the dog, just seems confused.


 You would need popcorn, soda, and someone to walk me through the "how to" of doing web video. Old skool dude and don't have a clue! Said it before. Always at the modern world's door but not often coming in. About a year ago got a cellphone. Success takes success in SMALL steps.


----------



## Al Curbow

Everybody you train with is old school too? LOL


----------



## Howard Gaines III

Al Curbow said:


> Everybody you train with is old school too? LOL


 I'll see you here Sunday for some QUALITY new school. Coffee at 8:00 be there!!!](*,)


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Okay, I'm watching this and I'm more in the Chris/Jack mold. The helper is the boogie man. I don't see a play bowing dog in this video. It would be interesting to see that as a comparison. Somewhere around 4:30, the helper backs into the blind. Handler sends the dog. There is a point when the dog worked himself into a sit. I would have popped him the sleeve if I was working on the dog in a sit and bark instead of a down and bark. Instead the helper put more pressure on the dog and the dog started going lower and then he popped him the sleeve. I'm confused as to why he picked that moment. I'm wondering what the rest of you thing but it appears that the dog wants to hold ground and goes down with the added "towering" pressure. The guy never releases pressure on the dog so I'm not sure if this is more about him taking the pressure or about the B & H.


Terrasita


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## Chris Michalek

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> The guy never releases pressure on the dog so I'm not sure if this is more about him taking the pressure or about the B & H.
> 
> 
> Terrasita



Its all about an inexperienced helper and handler in my book. The blind following the guy who thinks he can see. He just doesn't know how to build a dog. Mark is lucky to have such a nice dog.

The dog will be fine if he can get his handler skills under control and the helper puts much less pressure on the dog. 

The two vids I posted should help the OP gain some perspective on what he should be looking for.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

I see. I missed the video/post with the rott and your explanation. These videos are great for learning to read the dog in the protection work.

Terrasita


----------



## Rick Mattox

WOW, this thread really took off since I was on last. I'm still reading all the posts. As far as the video Chris put up of the Rott. You can't compare the 2 dogs nor the behavior. Rotts are notorious for doing the bowing behavior. the Rott isn't doing it for the same reasons. 

All this makes me think of the old saying " the only thing 2 helpers can agree on is what the 3rd is doing wrong."

Dog didn't want to bark without the preasure, if I remember back. He needed the preasure.

Since I know who this helper is and most here would at least know "OF" him, it's comical to me when I see post saying "if the helper is afraid of getting bit"  As for "raising the sleeve" Sure if you want a dog fixed on the equipment. This dog is not fixated on the equipment in the least. Once he outs and the helper stays back this dog doesn't look at the sleeve. Also the sleeve is exactly where it should be at all times in the blind at a trial for the H&B. Why raise the sleeve and show a dog a picture he will never see?


----------



## Chris Michalek

Rick Mattox said:


> W As far as the video Chris put up of the Rott. You can't compare the 2 dogs nor the behavior. Rotts are notorious for doing the bowing behavior. the Rott isn't doing it for the same reasons.
> 
> Dog didn't want to bark without the preasure, if I remember back. He needed the preasure.
> 
> Also the sleeve is exactly where it should be at all times in the blind at a trial for the H&B. Why raise the sleeve and show a dog a picture he will never see?


Then why is the Rottie laying down? And in your opinion why does the GSD laydown even through we didn't really see it in the vid.

And you don't believe in shaping behavior? The vid I saw of the GSD, the helper was working him outside of the blind so by your postulation why work the dog that way as he never see that picture in a trial either?

I still maintain the biggest issue, based on the vid, is FIRST, handler skills and SECOND, too much defense.


----------



## Rick Mattox

Shaping behavior yes. Making an equipment dog NO. You've seen this dog on video once. I've seen this dog in person many times. 

James was right when he said "Triton was a happy puppy barking for his 'ball'. lol" With No pressure the dog looked like he was trying to get a littermate to play. PERIOD. I don't need a video, saw it first hand. The dog didn't break. There was no pressure at that point. Just acting like a big puppy. Which is what he is. 

You obviously didn't have your sound up or you would have heard the helper telling Mark to stand still...


----------



## Chris Michalek

Rick Mattox said:


> You obviously didn't have your sound up or you would have heard the helper telling Mark to stand still...





I heard that... there is a lot to Mark's handler skills than just standing still. Mark needs to be checking the dog like the handler I posted in one of my vids.

Being there is person doesn't convince me that you see the right thing. I'm not saying I do either because I only have one vid to judge. But it's damn clear that dog had near constant pressure dumped on him during the entire session and for a young dog, that's not a good thing. 

There's no doubt that Mark has a very nice dog and he's lucky to have such a dog that can deal with the heavy pressure.

You're not going to make the dog a "sleeve dog" by holding it up. That's not the issue anyway.

What does the dog do when the helper is in the blind with no sleeve? What does the dog do when handled correctly.


----------



## Rick Mattox

You wrongly state: "The vid I saw of the GSD, the helper was working him outside of the blind so by your postulation why work the dog that way as he never see that picture in a trial either?" A dog is trained (or should be) to do a B&H on the man ANYWHERE. So it has actually nothing to do with the blind as much as setting up in front of the man. 

James was right when he said "Triton was a happy puppy barking for his 'ball'. lol" With No pressure the dog looked like he was trying to get a littermate to play. PERIOD. I don't need a video, saw it first hand. The dog didn't break. There was no pressure at that point. Just acting like a big puppy. Which is what he is. You're right you didn't really see him bow in this video (with all the helper pressure, as you put it) Perhaps your Rott buckles under the preasure and bows, but Triton was bowing when there was no preasure.


----------



## Rick Mattox

What does the dog do when the helper is in the blind with no sleeve? That I haven't seen first hand but I know we see a bouncing, bowing puppy when the helper stands there completely still looking out into space. Like the pup is saying come on let's play. That's why the pressure was added. 

Unfortunately you are looking at 1 video in the process of the helper trying to see exactly what is going to be best for this particular pup and judging it like it is this helpers end all be all of his training prowess. Which is not fair to you because it's just 1 video and it's not fair to the helper for the same reason.


----------



## Chris Michalek

LOL. OK.

You sound like a guy defending his club and helper more than somebody who knows they are talking about. 

You guys wouldn't know how to train my Rott.





Rick Mattox said:


> You wrongly state: "The vid I saw of the GSD, the helper was working him outside of the blind so by your postulation why work the dog that way as he never see that picture in a trial either?" A dog is trained (or should be) to do a B&H on the man ANYWHERE. So it has actually nothing to do with the blind as much as setting up in front of the man.
> 
> James was right when he said "Triton was a happy puppy barking for his 'ball'. lol" With No pressure the dog looked like he was trying to get a littermate to play. PERIOD. I don't need a video, saw it first hand. The dog didn't break. There was no pressure at that point. Just acting like a big puppy. Which is what he is. You're right you didn't really see him bow in this video (with all the helper pressure, as you put it) Perhaps your Rott buckles under the preasure and bows, but Triton was bowing when there was no preasure.


----------



## Rick Mattox

LOL. "You guys wouldn't know how to train my Rott."

I would train one. Personal preference. I wish one of the video guys would post Douglas Howes Rott from the same club. Then you could see a good well trained one vs the one you posted. 

Here's a video of a dog that did very much the same thing in the begining that Mark's worried about. He was worked much like the way Mark's dog was.(As a matter of fact this helper is the guy who trained the one Mark works on) You don't see any of the bowing and this is when the dog was about 18 months old. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGH3wAC06Ys


----------



## Joby Becker

Chris Michalek said:


> *What does the dog do when the helper is in the blind with no sleeve? *


the video of that would be much more interesting than the ones with no helper in the blind#-o,

I wonder what *would* happen:?:

is the sleeve holding him together in the work?

or is he a serious maneater?

Either way would be more entertaining to watch than a dog in the blind with a ball. 

Who knows, not enough input (for me) to determine whats going on...


----------



## Rick Mattox

Chris, I'm curious to your thoughts on this Rott. (NOT Doug's dog i mentioned earlier.) Obviously they aren't doing work on the same issue but sice I'm not a rott. guy. What do you see? good/bad.

Not really about this thread so you can PM me if you prefer.

http://www.youtube.com/user/EarlH1


----------



## Chris Michalek

Rick Mattox said:


> Chris, I'm curious to your thoughts on this Rott. (NOT Doug's dog i mentioned earlier.) Obviously they aren't doing work on the same issue but sice I'm not a rott. guy. What do you see? good/bad.
> 
> Not really about this thread so you can PM me if you prefer.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/user/EarlH1



He's young, nice drive. But I want to see him where he's not back tied and want to see him under some serious pressure.

Anybody can make a dog look good when they are trying to sell him. And if he such a great dog, why is he for sale?


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## Rick Mattox

Yes he's young. If you look at the guy's other videos on the page you'll see they are all of that dog. They are from most if not all the times he was at training from a young puppy. So I think you should be able to gauge the dogs progression from that. (gotta say he gets more air than most Rott's I've seen)

I guess you would have to ask his owner why he's for sale. Although I know this same guy has raised and trained a number of other dogs up and sold them. For the money would be the obvious answer i could think of. Not everyone want's a $300 craigslist project. 

"Anybody can make a dog look good when they are trying to sell him." I take it your not selling the Rott you posted then? 


Just so i'm sure you've been training in the bite work sports how long? Also how much decoy work have you actually done?


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## Chris Michalek

Rick Mattox said:


> Yes he's young. If you look at the guy's other videos on the page you'll see they are all of that dog. They are from most if not all the times he was at training from a young puppy. So I think you should be able to gauge the dogs progression from that. (gotta say he gets more air than most Rott's I've seen)
> 
> I guess you would have to ask his owner why he's for sale. Although I know this same guy has raised and trained a number of other dogs up and sold them. For the money would be the obvious answer i could think of. Not everyone want's a $300 craigslist project.
> 
> Just so i'm sure you've been training in the bite work sports how long?



I'm just an armchair trainer with a few months of experience. But I am a graduate of The Internationale K9 School for Dogs. I even made the deans list for two semesters. I've been taught in the ways of Personal Protection training where a dog pretends to bite the leg but when the decoy looks down the dog will reattack the face. It's supremely deadly move. One issue I can't figure out is my dogs only bite naked people. I thought it would be a good idea so they don't focus on the clothing and get distracted, but at least they focus on the man. Think about it, what part of a person almost never has clothing? The face and hands. I'm still working on getting the dogs to bite the eyes for guys who wear ski masks and gloves.


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## Rick Mattox

"I'm just an armchair trainer with a few months of experience. But I am a graduate of The Internationale K9 School for Dogs. I even made the deans list for two semesters." That's funny. Since your dog will only bite naked people is that only in the blind or out? I figure that it might be important since your other post made it sound like it would make a diffeerence to the dog when doing a H&B on the man.

So since graduating how many dogs have you titled?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

WTF is that helper trying to do ?? That guy really is shitty. Listen to the dog as the helper gets closer, he starts to melt down. What do you think that they had to do to that dog to get him to do that ??


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## Chris Michalek

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> WTF is that helper trying to do ?? That guy really is shitty. Listen to the dog as the helper gets closer, he starts to melt down. What do you think that they had to do to that dog to get him to do that ??



And How many dogs have you titled?  

Dumbest question on earth. Just below thinking you can train a dog because you're a Certified Entry Level helper.


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## Howard Gaines III

If being a *Certified Trial Helper* were easy...everyone would be certified. K-9 sport clubs would NEVER want, they would have lots of folks to chose from and trials would never be canceled. Passing the written and physical requirements do require some skills. If the skills and the certifications are wrong, then those who pass them are...:-k


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## Chris Michalek

don't fail me with your intellegence howard. Aren't you a teacher? 

It's one thing to be a certified helper its another thing entirely to know how to train a dog. Walking around with a sleeve, standing in the blind, knowing skip or running drives don't mean you can train a dog. Being able to catch a dog is great but that doesn't mean you can train a dog. 

I've run into too many certified helpers who think because they have a signature in their helper book that they are suddenly able to be a training helper.

BTW- becoming a certified helper IS easy. Doing it for years and gaining respect for doing it is not.


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## Howard Gaines III

Chris Michalek said:


> don't fail me with your intellegence howard. Aren't you a teacher?
> 
> It's one thing to be a certified helper its another thing entirely to know how to train a dog. Walking around with a sleeve, standing in the blind, knowing skip or running drives don't mean you can train a dog. Being able to catch a dog is great but that doesn't mean you can train a dog.
> 
> I've run into too many certified helpers who think because they have a signature in their helper book that they are suddenly able to be a training helper.
> 
> *BTW- becoming a certified helper IS easy*. Doing it for years and gaining respect for doing it is not.


 Chris what were you certified in, PSA, Schutzhund, KNPV...?

I know black belts who can't teach, they have great form. Football coaches who can't play, but can motivate and manage kids to playing success and fun.

Being a trial helper never was a standard for being a dog and people trainer/coach. It only says that you met or were successful in the requirements for that venue, Schutzhund/Ring. Send some PMs to the current Ring or Schutzhund Decoys and see what makes them successful.

If you're running into all these certified folks who aren't doing the job, what venue are you in? If it were me, I would be out of that wasteland. LOL. Post it well Chris...we love learning!!!:-o

And Chris, I'm RETIRED as a high school teacher, but still have time to teach and learn.


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## Mike Scheiber

Chris Michalek said:


> don't fail me with your intellegence howard. Aren't you a teacher?
> 
> It's one thing to be a certified helper its another thing entirely to know how to train a dog. Walking around with a sleeve, standing in the blind, knowing skip or running drives don't mean you can train a dog. Being able to catch a dog is great but that doesn't mean you can train a dog.
> 
> I've run into too many certified helpers who think because they have a signature in their helper book that they are suddenly able to be a training helper.
> 
> BTW- becoming a certified helper IS easy. Doing it for years and gaining respect for doing it is not.


Schutzhund helper certs are new with in the last 10 years. A piece of paper don't make you a safe or good dog trainer/helper.
As trial helpers go I wont send/show my dog on an any one who I haven't seen work with my own eyes.


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## Chris Michalek

I'm not certified in anything. Hmmm I might be a certified club helper, I remember taking some written test and going through a bunch of motions a few years ago and I remember seeing a signature in my helper book but it doesn't mean anything and I wouldn't dare play trial helper but maybe I should because I'm CERTIFIED!!!\\/\\/\\/\\/\\/

When I didn't know better I had people work my dog. I always heard. XXXX is a certified helper. I didn't know shit at the time. I do now and now, I don't let anybody I don't know work my dog.






Howard Gaines III said:


> Chris what were you certified in, PSA, Schutzhund, KNPV...?
> 
> I know black belts who can't teach, they have great form. Football coaches who can't play, but can motivate and manage kids to playing success and fun.
> 
> Being a trial helper never was a standard for being a dog and people trainer/coach. It only says that you met or were successful in the requirements for that venue, Schutzhund/Ring. Send some PMs to the current Ring or Schutzhund Decoys and see what makes them successful.
> 
> If you're running into all these certified folks who aren't doing the job, what venue are you in? If it were me, I would be out of that wasteland. LOL. Post it well Chris...we love learning!!!:-o
> 
> And Chris, I'm RETIRED as a high school teacher, but still have time to teach and learn.


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## Rick Mattox

Chris you talk a good game. Although you are showing your stupidity. You say that the ? "how many dogs have you titled" is the dumbest question in the world. (funny how onlly those that have never titled a dog say this) No, actually it is the first question someone should ask anyone, they don't know, who is trying to present themselves as a knowledgable trainer. If you haven't titled a dog in your chosen sport then why should anyone listen to you? Most people that I know that have a wealth of knowledge in bite work sports have it from years of training and titling their dogs.

I know there are a lot of people out there that like to train their dogs but have the desire to do helper work. You also don' t need to be a helper to know how to train dogs. There are many great trainers I know personally that have never put on a pair of scratch pants. They do know how to control their training. They do know how to read a dog and communicate with their helper on what they see and how they want the helper to go about fixing or encouraging the behavior....
I personally think that anyone physically capable should attend 1 seminar and do the entery test. I've done it and personallt recomend it. That way they can see/do it for themselves. This will give them a different perspective as well as better insight on what is going on with their dog during bitework. It's a totally different in front of the dog than behind.

Chris you stated: "I wouldn't dare play trial helper but maybe I should because I'm CERTIFIED!!!




























" 

I think that would be great. Although the belly might not let you present the sleeve properly







.


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## Chris Michalek

Rick Mattox said:


> Although you are showing your stupidity.



Either you understand what I am talking about or you don't. People who don't know shit always default to how many dogs have you titled. We use real names here so google me if you're so inclined.

It's always the idiots that begin with the "You're fat" blah blah blah.... Like I said either you get it or you don't. YOU DON"T


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## Mike Scheiber

Rick Mattox said:


> I think that would be great. Although the belly might not let you present the sleeve properly
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


Nice :roll:
Mattox I'll be certain to remember that name "looser"


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## Howard Gaines III

Chris Michalek said:


> Either you understand what I am talking about or you don't. People who don't know shit always default to how many dogs have you titled. We use real names here so google me if you're so inclined.
> 
> It's always the idiots that begin with the "You're fat" blah blah blah.... Like I said either you get it or you don't. YOU DON"T


 And Chris EITHER YOU WERE or you're full of BS!!! Who certified you and when?!!!

*Now with that said and being as we are all off topic*, I'm going to post a thread that is of decoy conversation!!!!


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## Chris Michalek

Howard Gaines III said:


> And Chris EITHER YOU WERE or you're full of BS!!! Who certified you and when?!!!
> 
> *Now with that said and being as we are all off topic*, I'm going to post a thread that is of decoy conversation!!!!



Well its both...

I went to a helper seminar. To my knowledge I wasn't there to take a test but my Trial Helper book is signed by a USA Judge saying I am certified. 

I have no desire to be a trial helper. I sometimes play one in training but I was illustrating a point that getting certified is easy and doesn't mean shit unless you work at it. I don't work at it.

Training helper and trial helper are often two different things.


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## Rick Mattox

Chris states;

"Either you understand what I am talking about or you don't. People who don't know shit always default to how many dogs have you titled. We use real names here so google me if you're so inclined."

Funny I happen to know one of the handlers on the '09 WUSV team and one of the first questions he asks to someone trying to pass themselves off as a knowledgable trainer is.... you guessed it HOW MANY DOGS HAVE YOU TITLED. But I guess he doesn't know crap. He also says that those who haven't titled or done anything in the dogs will deflect, just like you have, and say things just like you did. 

It goes back to THOSE WHO CAN DO....PERIOD.

Google you? Why? I already know Budda's a good harmonica player. Just won't finid much by way of titled dogs.


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## Rick Mattox

Chris I wish you well with your training endeavors. I'll just take my training advice from someone who has done something in the sport for me to put my trust in. 

Done with this thread.


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## jack van strien

Rick,
This is a young dog in training wich is not the same as being at a trial.


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