# Obedience Training



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

So why do folks think a 12 week old puppy should have polished obedience and not want to see people when they come to your home? 

This is like asking a kid not to go outside and play. Puppies want to explore and have lots of wild energy. I have a 6 month old GSD that is just wild, WILD. The key, IMO, is to harness that interest and energy in a positive fashion and generate a bond with the owner. 

This isn't a time to beat them into being K-9 robots or making them puppies in a box...take them out only when it suits the owner!


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Let puppies be puppies and teach them basic manners.....

It is much easier to teach a pup things than it is an older dog, and I think there is a misconception that you have to train them young.....heck, I believed that. 

I teach manners, but I think it is okay to wait awhile get that focused perfect OB.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re: "12 week old puppy should have polished obedience"
THAT, i'd like to see !!
... but i'm sure there will be some batteries somewhere if you looked close enuff //lol//
... never gonna happen and shouldn't be a training goal of course

but the Koreans are making some pretty cool "animal robots" ,,,, seen their fish ? very cool


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

All of our pups are wild... No ob for about the first yr except for coming when called ;-)


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> So why do folks think a 12 week old puppy should have polished obedience and not want to see people when they come to your home?
> 
> This is like asking a kid not to go outside and play. Puppies want to explore and have lots of wild energy. I have a 6 month old GSD that is just wild, WILD. The key, IMO, is to harness that interest and energy in a positive fashion and generate a bond with the owner.
> 
> This isn't a time to beat them into being K-9 robots or making them puppies in a box...take them out only when it suits the owner!


Agreed. Other than sometimes bringing them in the house to teach manners, I pretty much just play with them for the first year. In that play, they learn some stuff, but I don't start any formal ob with my own pups until they are around a year old.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

so, WTH, does anyone here really think a pup needs polished OB at 12 weeks ???????

be quick about it ... i wanna start arguing about when "real" OB should start for a pup 

.... personally i find it hard to believe everyone waits a year to teach positions and just lets their pups be pups 
...or maybe that's not something that's needs polishing ??


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

K Rick, I will bite, but I won't argue....LOL


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Carol ,,, i'm not fishing  ,,,, seriously


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

rick smith said:


> Carol ,,, i'm not fishing  ,,,, seriously


I know, sorry, I was going to reply, hit the incorrect key and posted, then was going to edit and now have a phone call......I will post when I am done here..... ;-)


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re: being a puppy should not be ... "a time to beat them into being K-9 robots "
........ actually, that should apply equally to mature dogs as well as pups, shouldn't it ?? ](*,)](*,)](*,)

this is a no brainer that isn't worth much discussing
pups are blank pages that wanna have fun

let em do EXACTLY that, while you teach em as much as you can, that they will absorb and have fun while they are doing it ... which for MANY pups can be quite a bit of OB ... how polished it becomes is a result of the skill of the trainer

- anyway, what is the advantage of letting them be wild for their first year ???
(or until they are young adults ) 

sorry i don't get this philosophy but seems like a lot of experienced people subscribe to it , so please explain with more than a one liner


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

You can see the actual dog, and be let the wild you wont over ask them or burn them out. Esp with mals you can see ppl do everything with them when 1 yo and they are just a shade of them selves when they are 3.

Besides that i dont have enough patience to do it only playfully.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

I think that all of this depends on the puppy or dog, the handlers experience, how much time they have to devote to training (some of have a lot on our plates so ALL training we do HAS to count). 

For some, teaching puppies is easier than teaching older dogs, and for some, letting a pup grow up a bit is easier.

I truly think that it is a matter of preference for each individual. I have run the gauntlet as far as this. I have trained each way and I have wasted A LOT of time, energy, emotions and money on a lot of training that didn't benefit me at all, but rather benefited the people that were using me to do all the work to stage a seminar. 

So now, I train, quietly, with people I know are not out to get what they want. I do A LOT by myself. I work my dogs every other day....that is the time that I have. 

Both my dogs were started seriously as young pups. Both are nice dogs, and now I am beginning to work with an 18 month old DDR dog of my brother in-laws and given his totally difference in drives, he is easier to train now than when I first worked with him as a youngster. He is going to be a monster, but he has low drive for ANYTHING....I will say it is coming up as he matures. 

So now, the person I got him for Todd through is coming in and we are going to wake him up a bit with some bite work and use that as his "reward".

It has been a long time since I have posted so these skills are rusty...hope that makes sense...LOL


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

rick smith said:


> - anyway, what is the advantage of letting them be wild for their first year ???
> (or until they are young adults )


I'ts just easier for me personally to train a pup old enough to both focus on me and work in a high drive state at the same time. In my experience, most pups start to get really drivey when they are older pups/young dogs. 

I think like Carol said, it's what works for the individual as well as the dog. Some people have great results with little pups and some do better with older pups. I don't have the patience with little ones, I'm better just enjoying their natural antics and waiting until they are older.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Well, rehashing past seminars probably won't keep the thread on track. 



_
"Both my dogs were started seriously as young pups."_

How young?

How seriously?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> I'ts just easier for me personally to train a pup old enough to both focus on me and work in a high drive state at the same time. In my experience, most pups start to get really drivey when they are older pups/young dogs.


Older, like a year? Or older, like 6 or 9 months?


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Well, rehashing past seminars probably won't keep the thread on track.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You are correct, was just trying to make the point that all training should be done with purpose. 

Jesea started cadaver training at 10 weeks and was ready to certify Advanced testing at 9 months. I also had her OB done in that time as well, although as she worked more the OB slipped a little, so I sent her with someone who wanted to see if they really wanted a mal, and that person brushed her up for me.

Ash was started at 9 weeks and was doing 2 minute downs with handler out of site at about 6 months. 

Jagger is 18+ months and we are just starting OB......


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Older, like a year? Or older, like 6 or 9 months?


Depending on the pup, around a year, some a little sooner, and some later.


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## Chelsey Protulipac (Feb 21, 2010)

I like to do a lot of shaping and playing with a puppy, I like to show them different pictures/behaviours and teach them how to use their bodies and connect ideas with different tricks and games, such as shaped hold/retrieve, recall games, front and rear paw targeting, pivots/perch work, shaped heel position. She understands when she is right and when she is wrong and we build a strong bond to work together. How to hold a position and release. How to respect the rewards we use, that working with me is far more fun than stealing the from the bowl of cookies I am working out of on the floor somewhere. I introduce some rules in life, but especially in "training" mistakes are ok, never punished, and creativity (on her part) is encouraged  I want her to think she is as smart as I think she is. Nothing is remotely polished and where I can I try to make the behaviour not look like the "end result" at this age so she can make mistakes but we aren't under pressure to not "screw anything up". For instance, retrieve training is a trick involving picking up objects and putting them into a bowl. Teaches the pick up, hold & carry, and challenges her to think about how to fit or balance the object she has in her mouth into or onto another object. She thinks it's a lot of fun, and she's learning so many great skills - precision, how to cope with frustration, how to multi task, etc. Something like this I've done with Java maybe 3 or 4 times for about 5 minutes each time while feeding her. I don't drill anything nor do I push her beyond what she is able to do right now. With everything, I will work on things once or twice and then shelve it for when she is more mentally mature, but showing her stuff now will make it incredibly easy when she is older.

Here was my last recorded session with Java from Wednesday. I introduced the whistle a couple days prior and will just play little things like that every now and then until she is mature enough to handle distractions and pressure. Also is a bit of agility foundation for contact equipment. She probably won't see the real thing until she is over a year. But the things I do now I intend to make confidence building and fun. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRpFqFeAoaM

She's not a robot in any regard, has lots of funny ideas about things. I don't feel like I (or anyone) needs to do this, for instance, at the same time I got Java, I got Wiley, who will be 2 tomorrow. I've had both dogs the same amount of time, Wiley doesn't feel "behind" at all with training, he learns just as well despite not having much foundation when he was young. I work with my puppy because I love it, which is why most people train their dogs in the first place. There is no finish line here, I just do what I feel like and build on things that make us both happy.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

I started last week with 11 old fci mal and a 18 mo x DS ;-) both first session


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> I started last week with 11 old fci mal and a 18 mo x DS ;-) both first session


I think I need to travel and have you teach me Selena!!! :grin:


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Howard Gaines III said:


> So why do folks think a 12 week old puppy should have polished obedience and not want to see people when they come to your home?
> 
> This is like asking a kid not to go outside and play. Puppies want to explore and have lots of wild energy. I have a 6 month old GSD that is just wild, WILD. The key, IMO, is to harness that interest and energy in a positive fashion and generate a bond with the owner.
> 
> This isn't a time to beat them into being K-9 robots or making them puppies in a box...take them out only when it suits the owner!


I completely agree with having an obedient puppy at this age. I want him to obediently bite a rag or tug or sleeve. Obediently jump on people so he can bite people later on without any concern of manners. Oh, and i want him to hunt obediently as well. 

Ob should be based on the goals.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Dave Colborn said:


> I completely agree with having an obedient puppy at this age. I want him to obediently bite a rag or tug or sleeve. Obediently jump on people so he can bite people later on without any concern of manners. Oh, and i want him to hunt obediently as well.
> 
> Ob should be based on the goals.


:grin::grin::grin: Nice post...


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I *LOVE* working with puppies! Both my GSDs were in the house for the first 7-8 months of their lives. By the time they are 12-14 weeks I want a sit, down, stay and a recall. All taught with markers as a game of course and no duration longer then 8-10 seconds at best. Duration and precision come later with more maturity.
Obviously everyone has different methods and reasons that work for them. I DO understand that and why. For "ME", I like the foundation it sets for later OB.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Carol Boche said:


> I think I need to travel and have you teach me Selena!!! :grin:


Lol not vey different how any body else starts i think. Finfing out what works best, ball or food. 2 steps of paying attention is reward, verbally and with food/ ball. No command. When they can heel for a few meters i will hook the volg cammand on the movement ;-)
Flatj collar for the mal, a to big choke chain for the ds, because she a bit to strong on the flat for me ( big girl, 67 cm and about 36 kg). Her head is at my waist with the "heeling".


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> I *LOVE* working with puppies! Both my GSDs were in the house for the first 7-8 months of their lives. By the time they are 12-14 weeks I want a sit, down, stay and a recall. All taught with markers as a game of course and no duration longer then 8-10 seconds at best. Duration and precision come later with more maturity.
> Obviously everyone has different methods and reasons that work for them. I DO understand that and why. For "ME", I like the foundation it sets for later OB.


 
Well, I'm kinda like Bob. One, my dogs are 100% house dogs. Two, they work livestock from puppyhood. My work these days is all marker work but its also leadership work. I've been working in-motion downs while their attention is on something else and they are in drive; call offs in drive; other recall work since they were baby puppies. Much easier to imprint it as puppies then waiting and trying to put it their later, especially from the stock perspective. My bouvs and GSDs have all known the basic position and leash work in the 12-16 week stage. Corgis are a tad slower on some things and I don't bring them along as soon or as fast. I think it comes down to lifestyle or goals. My pups are 14 months old and they really could be better on-lead. Most of their lives has been off leash and/or on long lines. Its time to put in the 6-foot lead work and more heel position. Rhemy is better with it around stock because that's where I first started it but otherwise, he has a tendency to be out ahead.

T


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> I *LOVE* working with puppies! Both my GSDs were in the house for the first 7-8 months of their lives. By the time they are 12-14 weeks I want a sit, down, stay and a recall. All taught with markers as a game of course and no duration longer then 8-10 seconds at best. Duration and precision come later with more maturity.
> Obviously everyone has different methods and reasons that work for them. I DO understand that and why. For "ME", I like the foundation it sets for later OB.


+2 for Bob


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

susan tuck said:


> ... I'm better just enjoying their natural antics and waiting until they are older.


 You can teach on-lead obedience in about 2 weeks. I think you can KILL drives by pushing the OB issue too much at the early stage. 
Come when called, don't touch it when I say NO, and sit for your food. :-\"
LIFE IS GOOD...


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Howard Gaines III said:


> You can teach on-lead obedience in about 2 weeks. I think you can KILL drives by pushing the OB issue too much at the early stage.
> Come when called, don't touch it when I say NO, and sit for your food. :-\"
> LIFE IS GOOD...


=D>=D>:mrgreen:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> You can teach on-lead obedience in about 2 weeks. I think you can KILL drives by pushing the OB issue too much at the early stage.
> Come when called, don't touch it when I say NO, and sit for your food. :-\"
> LIFE IS GOOD...



Completely depends on the OB! Neither of my GSDs is lacking in drive. The older one could handle anything I delt him but why?! "I" get stupid when I do that. The younger one would for sure would loose drive under serious correction training. Both were trained with OC and markers. If anything the younger one has as much crazy drive as any terrier I've owned.


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