# How to speed up the down from a heel



## David Walter (Aug 2, 2008)

All,

Been working on downing from a heel. She downs but is slow doing it. Any thoughts on how I can speed this up? Just really started working on it, so it may be something that just needs some work.

Thanks,
Dave


----------



## Amy Swaby (Jul 16, 2008)

Don't know if you do this already but i find if the dog knows the concertina down the slip back into a down much faster


----------



## David Walter (Aug 2, 2008)

Amy,

Not sure what the concertina down is. Can you elaborate some?

Dave


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Does the dog have good food or toy drive? Use that to reward speed.
Unless you have a fast down on it's own your not going to get one during heeling. Get the speed before you start putting it together with something else.


----------



## David Walter (Aug 2, 2008)

Bob,

Thanks. Will try to separate these and work on the down and then add it into the down from a heel. Thinking about it, she may be focusing on doing the heel correctly and is getting confused in the down. I'll take a step back and make sure she knows it 100% before putting them together.

Would still like to know what the concertina down is though.

Dave


----------



## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Concertina down = folding back like an accordian. Somebody told me years ago that you always teach the dog to "fold" back like an accordian or concertina. Apparently most people ie; pet owners teach their dogs to down from the sit position and that creates a slower down. I dunno, I could be totally wrong on what a concertina down is but that how I heard it referenced.

I would teach down as a separate exercise. Make the dog do it everywhere and under all conditions. Down means down period. First do with with out moving then move around with the dog follwoing - position doesn't matter. Do you do OB before you feed? My dogs always do something of my (of wife's) choosing before they eat. Before meal time is a good way to create a sharpness in the exercises. 

I've even done it while I'm walking and somebody's sprinklers is on, the dog downs in front of a sprinkler. Yeah its uncomfortable but it's only water and it's a good way to proof the dog. Down means down. To me and my dogs it means get the hell down as fast as possible and stay there until told otherwise.



David Walter said:


> Bob,
> 
> Thanks. Will try to separate these and work on the down and then add it into the down from a heel. Thinking about it, she may be focusing on doing the heel correctly and is getting confused in the down. I'll take a step back and make sure she knows it 100% before putting them together.
> 
> ...


----------



## Amy Swaby (Jul 16, 2008)

exactly what chris said I have had MUCH faster responses once switching to the concertina down than the down from the sit, that and the dog remains in the position vs being ahead because when they inch down with the front paws.


----------



## Ian Forbes (Oct 13, 2006)

Get the dog high in drive (usually for a toy), give the command and as soon as the stomach hits the floor, give the toy. You can slowly refine it so that only the fastest downs are rewarded. Once you have that, you can then start applying it in motion.


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Train in this order:

Accuracy.
Enthusiasm.
Duration.

First train the 'concertina' down in heel position. Train for accuracy, train for enthusiasm. 

If the dog doesn't DROP when standing at heel, you're not ready to move to a down out of heeling. You need the dog to know what to do and to love it.

Once you get the down in heel, bring up the drive as high as possible. Don't correct for inaccuracy, but withhold reward.

Now you have an accurate, high drive down from heel position. Set your dog up like you're going to train heeling. Go ONE step and down the dog - HUGE BIG reward - like you guys won the lottery. Don't ask your dog to stay in the position. As soon as your dog is down, release with that HUGE reward. 

Set your dog up to heel again and repeat, but go 3 or 5 steps before asking for the down. 

When you are confident your dog understands, it's time to add correction for refusing to down or a slow down. You've got to time the correction right. Give a "no" marker to mark the moment of disobedience. The correction FOLLOWS the no marker. You want the dog trying to BEAT the correction.

Do the correction phase BEFORE you ask for duration. Get the accuracy, the enthusiasm, proof the beahvior, then add duration last.

Now - the training steps above assume that your dog is not slow out of a lack of FOCUS. Assuming your dog already heels nicely, has focus and understands a down stay, you've got maybe a half hour of work to make the down pretty.


----------



## Alex Corral (Jul 10, 2007)

I agree w/the concertina down. I taught my dog to down from a sit. Big mistake. I will never do that again. It's a PITA to try to fix.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Alex Corral said:


> I agree w/the concertina down. I taught my dog to down from a sit. Big mistake. I will never do that again. It's a PITA to try to fix.


Agreed...I'm working on the sit and down on the pause table for agility where it's especially important to shave time down. My foster Rottweiler who is just learning down flops down much more quickly than Zoso, who's known "down" about 50/50 from a sit for ages... :roll:

Question...would it be helpful to use another cue word (i.e.-coucher instead of platz or down) to train the concertina down?


----------



## David Walter (Aug 2, 2008)

All,

Thanks! Worked with food tonight and her downs were a lot better. Just need to practice more. Can't expect to solve everything in one night  

Still a little confused on the concertina down. Does anyone have a link that they could forward? Who knows, I may even be doing it without knowing.

Really excited how well she is doing. Went to a trainer this past weekend and with just a couple of things we worked on, she is like a totally different dog. Almost like an expisode of the "Dog Whisperer" LOL. She was never really motivated by food, but I think now that she is more under control, the food is working.

Thanks again for all of your advice and help.

Dave


----------



## Alex Corral (Jul 10, 2007)

Dave, glad things are getting better. Don't feed before training and if you can, use certain "high value" treats for training only. Food drive will greatly increase. 

I don't have a link to the c. down, but best way I can explain it is to teach your dog to do it from a stand or just walking slowly by you. When their butt and elbows hit the ground at the same time, that's a c. down. Otherwise you get the slow and lazy butt going down, plants butt, stretches front legs forward and slides down. Kinda like my dog 

jk, it has gotten much better, but I won't teach from a sit again. Totally my fault.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

This can be a big help when learning to teach with food/toys. 
http://www.flyingdogpress.com/rewards.html


----------



## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

in addition to all these suggestions...I like starting the dogs down and stand and sit up on an elevated surface...you can work on speed, and accuracy, and later if you say compete in ring- you will help prevent creeping by working on the elevated surface..so you are teaching a lot at the same time...make it fun. for example...when teaching -if the dog has ball drive..as soon as they down, I slam the ball down for them to get...a fun reward..and makes their response quicker and quicker to get to the game...then bring it to the heel and your down in motion..., IMO if you keep it fun, they will respond quicker. mo


----------



## David Walter (Aug 2, 2008)

All,

Again thanks for your suggestions. Will definitely work on keeping it positive. Alex, thanks for the definition of the c. down. It is exactly what I have been working on and she does do it. Have made some significant strides so it only will get better.

Thanks again,
Dave


----------



## Amy Swaby (Jul 16, 2008)

-shakes head- I learned the concertina down from anne-marie silverton's vhs's on competition obedience training and I captured clips onto my computer through my webcam but soome of the files are too big to send over e-mail.


----------

