# Sport Mal Breeder?



## Vitto Pacheco

Hello Everyone,

I'm finally in the market for a Mal pup. I'm hoping to pick up a male in the near future. With that said, I was hoping you all could point me in the direction of some great breeders within the States, preferably near Texas. 
What I'm looking for:
I'm going to be interested in a versitle dog. My main goal is flyball and agility. I will be doing obiedance as well. Of course I will also be doing some basic bite work and hopefully use my dog within the Coast Guard pending the extensive paperwork. 

Thank you everyone

Vitto


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## Lindsay Janes

Why do you want a malinois? Are you prepared how to live with one?


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## Carmen van de Kamp

Lindsay Janes said:


> Why do you want a malinois? Are you prepared how to live with one?


I agree....
Those are normal questions a serious breeder will ask, so something to think about.


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## Craig Snyder

If your intent is to work him into the Coast Guard what are you intending him to do there? Patrol work or detection work? Both?

If you are talking detection work you might, (if you haven't already), want to look at this thread going on here: http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f15/malinois-hunt-drive-25069/

Also, while getting a local breeder in Texas might be nice, I wouldn't keep it as a priority. You will probably be limiting yourself greatly. Why? Shipping? Travel costs? Wanting to see the dog in person?

This can truly be a issue where penny wise, pound foolish. You're getting a partner for the next ten years. Hopefully not a throw away dog. Some extra dollars spent now might save you a ton of training hours and even avoid a total washout.

Craig


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## Vitto Pacheco

I'm well versed in the breed. I've been around both Mals and GSDs for a while now; doing training. I've also been engulfed in the working side of both breeds. More GSDs, but nevertheless, I've seen and handled Mals when they are "on". 
With that said, I know dogs. I've experienced a plethora of breeds and understand the demands that each individual breed can have. 
In the Coast Guard, I'd be limited to drug detection if any. It's a extensive process. The dogs that the CG uses for protection/guard work are on a strict contract, so I will not be able to go into that realm. 
So, like I said, my main focus will be flyball and agility... We'll just say dog sports. Thus my question: Any sport Malinois breeders? 

Thanks


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## Gerald Dunn

do you live in an apartment or a house? where at in Texas? you want a pup or a 1 year old? male or female?


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## Vitto Pacheco

I understand that these are typical questions a breeder would ask, but unless you are that breeder this seems petty.
For your enjoyment I will answer your questions. I live in a large house with a yard away from the city. I live in outer edge of San Antonio. I'm looking for a male pup


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## Lindsay Janes

If you have "many" friends who own working malinois, why don't you ask them for breeder tips? What kinds of lines are you looking for? Did you know that there is a mondio ring in San Antonio? 

I have a suggestion for you is start researching on what kinds of lines do you like. For example; Contes' Hoffmann? NBVK? KNVP
"Just having a male malinois puppy" that is versatile seems too simple for me. Do you want a high strung reactive puppy? How about possessive?


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## Katie Finlay

I think most Malinois will be suited for agility and flyball. Contact Kadi Thingvall, and if she's too far or doesn't have what you want I'm sure she could help you out.


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## Robin Van Hecke

I have to strongly disagree here. Very many Malinois will be waayyyyy too much for that kinda stuff and if I'm wrong, the breed is in worse shape than I thought it was.
Have you see very many Malinois?


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## Guest

Vitto Pacheco said:


> I understand that these are typical questions a breeder would ask, but unless you are that breeder this seems petty.
> For your enjoyment I will answer your questions. I live in a large house with a yard away from the city. I live in outer edge of San Antonio. I'm looking for a male pup


 
Jeff Oehlsen live is San Antonio


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## Katie Finlay

Robin Van Hecke said:


> I have to strongly disagree here. Very many Malinois will be waayyyyy too much for that kinda stuff and if I'm wrong, the breed is in worse shape than I thought it was.
> Have you see very many Malinois?


Aren't the top agility and flyball dogs Malinois? And dock diving too? Look at the LDS dogs. They compete in everything.

He's doing bitework and detection on the side. Main focus is flyball and agility. I'm not seeing an issue.


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## Christopher Smith

Robin Van Hecke said:


> I have to strongly disagree here. Very many Malinois will be waayyyyy too much for that kinda stuff and if I'm wrong, the breed is in worse shape than I thought it was.
> Have you see very many Malinois?


Malinois kick ass in flyball. What do you mean by too much?


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## Robin Van Hecke

You said most Malinois are suited for that.
So you have seen enough Malinois to make a blanket statement like that?


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## Robin Van Hecke

Christopher Smith said:


> Malinois kick ass in flyball. What do you mean by too much?



Maybe in California, not around here. Must be a special strain you have there.
I've had a few and seen very many and I don't remember any that I would pick to do flyball with.


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## Dana McMahan

I would agree with the statement. Most good malinois are perfectly capable of excelling in flyball, agility, dock diving, etc. Whatever you ask them to do. They are dominating for sure in flyball and dock diving (holding multiple world records). They dominate in the protection sports (ringsport, schutzhund, etc). They do really well in AKC Obedience and Rally (my friend owns one of the top UD malinois in the country last year). So having seen a boatload of malinois, yes totally agree with Katie's statement. There is no reason a high drive quality Malinois shouldn't be able to do anything you ask of it. JMO.


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## Dana McMahan

Robin Van Hecke said:


> Maybe in California, not around here. Must be a special strain you have there.
> I've had a few and seen very many and I don't remember any that I would pick to do flyball with.


The fastest Flyball team on the world record in Canada (Rocket Relay) has a Malinois that ran on that team. INXS locally is almost entirely malinois. You can check them out here; http://www.inxsflyball.net/contact.html


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## Robin Van Hecke

You're talking one dog on a team, hardly enough to say that most Malinois are suited for agility and flyball. that there may be the odd dog in a litter that is suitable is one thing but to say most is bs.


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## Christopher Smith

Robin Van Hecke said:


> Maybe in California, not around here. Must be a special strain you have there.
> I've had a few and seen very many and I don't remember any that I would pick to do flyball with.


Yes California dogs are a special strain, just like the people.  But they do let us communicate with folks outside of the state. Heck sometimes we get real crazy and even leave the state. And do you know what I find? MALINOIS KICKING ASS IN FLYBALL.

Anyway you didn't answer my question. What did you mean by "too much"?


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## Katie Finlay

If most Malinois don't have the temperament to run an obstacle course I'd say we have some very serious problems in the breed. 

To say most can't is the real BS.


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## Vitto Pacheco

The world record flyball team has one or two Malinois on their record breaking team. The world record holder for dock long jump diving is a Malinois at 32+ ft. So this breed is active in the sporting dog scene and dominates. 

All my friends are military that have Mals and GSDs and because the military contracts their dogs out of private breeders and trainers for bite work, it's not something I can get to or even want. 

I'm not too familiar with bloodlines and linage yet... kind of the reason why I came to you guys and gals. I was looking at MPACT kennel by owner Penny Winegartner out of Pearland, TX. I haven't heard too much talk about her or her dogs. But I contacted her and she said has a bitch that might be pregnant pending the results. 

I understand that most malinois breeders breed for protection, bite work, police and military, and other various working type jobs outside of the whole agility & flyball scene. Since I'm not familiar with breeders and bloodlines, I wanted to see if a specific breeder focused more on the whole flyball and agility aspect.

The two I've found were MPACT and Loups Du Soleil where "Vixen" (on the world record team) came from and have numerous offspring successful in flyball.


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## Robin Van Hecke

Katie Finlay said:


> If most Malinois don't have the temperament to run an obstacle course I'd say we have some very serious problems in the breed.
> 
> To say most can't is the real BS.




I don't think you get and no matter what I say, you're convinced . After all, you live in the center of the universe.
If I remember correctly, you're also the one that asked or stated in another thread why it was that Malinois are beating the GSD in IPO and schutzhund but yet the GSD is winning in the KNPV program....enough said.
Have fun with your Malinois in flyball.


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## Robin Van Hecke

Christopher Smith said:


> Yes California dogs are a special strain, just like the people.  But they do let us communicate with folks outside of the state. Heck sometimes we get real crazy and even leave the state. And do you know what I find? MALINOIS KICKING ASS IN FLYBALL.
> 
> Anyway you didn't answer my question. What did you mean by "too much"?



Too much drive for biting, that enough for you?


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## Thomas Barriano

Vitto,

If you want to do Fly ball and Agility? Take a look at one of Lisa Maze sport mixes 5/8ths Mal 1/4 Border Terrier and 1/8 Border Collie bred especially for Fly ball and Agility


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## Vitto Pacheco

Good thing they bite a ball and turn around to bite a tug at the end of their run. Is it hard to think that a dog's focus could be something other than a person. Drive is there with both explosion and and biting for a end goal. I obviously see a difference, but similarities are there as well. Mals want to please and are extremely driven... we get that. The fast pace and mouth work in flyball isn't too farfetched outside normal/typical mal work... is it? Maybe that's why a breed not too popular as most, in a sport not too popular as say, agility and dock diving, hold records and succeeds outside of bite work.


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## Kadi Thingvall

Robin Van Hecke said:


> Too much drive for biting, that enough for you?


I have to disagree with you on this. I've done flyball with the last 3 dogs I also competed in FRIII with, and there are quite a few dogs in this area who are titled in FR, MR, or IPO who also do flyball. Unless it was lacking in toy drive, what Malinois wouldn't think that running down, grabbing a tennis ball, and running back to a tug or another ball wouldn't be tons of fun?

I could see some issues if the dog's personality was such that it thought going after the other dogs was fun, or it had an issue with another dog coming near it while it was going after it's ball, but outside of those types of issues I think most good working Malinois would enjoy flyball. I did retire Mac from flyball, not because he didn't think it wasn't tons of fun, and he had no problems with the other dogs for the most part, but we had a male terrier on our team with an attitude problem, who had started a few altercations with other dogs, and frankly I was concerned about what Mac would do if that dog ever came after him. 85 pounds vs 20 pounds just wouldn't have worked out well.


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## Robin Van Hecke

I've never said it can't be done, my problem was with the "most Malinois" part of the statement. Given the right trainer and the right dog sure but to make it sound like the Mal is the right choice for every aspiring flyball or agility handler is ridiculous. For someone that has the experience that you have, handling a dog like your Mac in flyball is not that big a deal but let's be real here, giving your Mac to a Pappilion or some breed like that handler would be like giving the the keys to a Ferrari to a teenager.
So I stand by what I said earlier, most Malinois are not the ideal flyball dogs.
It won't be long before breeders are breeding flyball lines I'm sure.


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## Jason Davis

Christopher Smith said:


> Yes California dogs are a special strain, just like the people.  But they do let us communicate with folks outside of the state. Heck sometimes we get real crazy and even leave the state. And do you know what I find? MALINOIS KICKING ASS IN FLYBALL.
> 
> Anyway you didn't answer my question. What did you mean by "too much"?


Hahaha. Now that's funny!


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## Jennifer Marshall

Robin Van Hecke said:


> I've never said it can't be done, my problem was with the "most Malinois" part of the statement. Given the right trainer and the right dog sure but to make it sound like the Mal is the right choice for every aspiring flyball or agility handler is ridiculous. For someone that has the experience that you have, handling a dog like your Mac in flyball is not that big a deal but let's be real here, giving your Mac to a Pappilion or some breed like that handler would be like giving the the keys to a Ferrari to a teenager.
> So I stand by what I said earlier, most Malinois are not the ideal flyball dogs.
> It won't be long before breeders are breeding flyball lines I'm sure.


You seem to be slightly confused on the point you are trying to make. The dogs are capable, its the handlers who may not be. Might have to go back and re read all the posts but pretty sure nobody has "made it sound like the mal is the right choice for every aspiring flyball of agility handler." IF someone HAD said that I would agree it would be ridiculous. 

So.. IMO.. "most mals" are suitable for things like flyball, agility, dock diving, etc is a correct statement when you filter out the low drive/show mals, the ones that may have issues with other dogs etc etc. "Most mals" have the drive, athleticism, speed, and energy to make them capable. "Most" people are not capable of handling a mal, but this thread is not about most people, it is someone who has been around mals, is interested in getting one, and happens to be interested in doing flyball/agility etc with the dog.


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## Kadi Thingvall

Robin Van Hecke said:


> Given the right trainer and the right dog sure but to make it sound like the Mal is the right choice for every aspiring flyball or agility handler is ridiculous. For someone that has the experience that you have, handling a dog like your Mac in flyball is not that big a deal but let's be real here, giving your Mac to a Pappilion or some breed like that handler would be like giving the the keys to a Ferrari to a teenager.


OK, this I can agree with, but IMO this is a problem with the handlers, not the dogs. 



> It won't be long before breeders are breeding flyball lines I'm sure.


To late, this is already happening :-(


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## Sara Waters

I run in the top height with my big working Border collie in agility and compete against a number of Mals. I hadnt had much to do with them in agility untill my young BC just made the cut in to the top height class.

I really like them. They are fast and keen with plenty of drive and give my BC a good run for his money although ultimately he and a couple of other big working bred BCs running in that class do have the speed to beat them if they run clear but it is pretty competitive between the mals and Borders. They are imported from Holland and Denmark I think and seem like really nice dogs. 

Their handlers are experienced but no more so than many handlers that run their dogs successfully in agility. There are plenty of experienced handlers in agility working with high drive dogs. Given how packed and conjested many of the lead in to the multiple rings are and how chaotic things can be there are surprisingly very few problems.


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## Timothy Stacy

Well maybe Robin is talking about Malinois's with temperament issues. I encountered a son of a Contes D' Hoffman dog/pup who had severe issues with people and other animals. It was deathly afraid of the bathroom in the house. If you got one of those its reasonable to think that "most" Malinois are like that. It did "love to bite", just the wrong things at the wrong time LOL.


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## Robin Van Hecke

Timothy Stacy said:


> Well maybe Robin is talking about Malinois's with temperament issues. I encountered a son of a Contes D' Hoffman dog/pup who had severe issues with people and other animals. It was deathly afraid of the bathroom in the house. If you got one of those its reasonable to think that "most" Malinois are like that. It did "love to bite", just the wrong things at the wrong time LOL.




You're letting your own personal agenda shine through with that comment. Given your comments in an earlier thread discussing breeders in California, it's obvious you don't like CDH Malinois and you want to go there again.....go ahead and get your rocks off but I'm not going there.
Meanwhile, if you ever find yourself up here, stop by for a beer and you can test a dog I have, even in the bathroom if you like.


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## Timothy Stacy

Robin Van Hecke said:


> You're letting your own personal agenda shine through with that comment. Given your comments in an earlier thread discussing breeders in California, it's obvious you don't like CDH Malinois and you want to go there again.....go ahead and get your rocks off but I'm not going there.
> Meanwhile, if you ever find yourself up here, stop by for a beer and you can test a dog I have, even in the bathroom if you like.


Lol, that was fun. I try to have some empathy toward you and that's what I get! Compassion doesn't get you far here....... Geezz


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## Robin Van Hecke

Timothy Stacy said:


> Lol, that was fun. I try to have some empathy toward you and that's what I get! Compassion doesn't get you far here....... Geezz



Thanks man, it means a lot to me and I apologize.....I had you pegged all wrong!


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## Timothy Stacy

Robin Van Hecke said:


> Thanks man, it means a lot to me and I apologize.....I had you pegged all wrong!


No problem, I understand


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## Robin Van Hecke

Timothy Stacy said:


> No problem, I understand



Just getting the bathroom ready....


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## Timothy Stacy

Since your dogs aren't in the house and you probably don't know his reaction I'll tell ya, If he's gonna blow his anal gland, the bathroom is the ideal room to do it in.


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## Robin Van Hecke

Timothy Stacy said:


> Since your dogs aren't in the house and you probably don't know his reaction I'll tell ya, If he's gonna blow his anal gland, the bathroom is the ideal room to do it in.




You think that maybe that was the problem with the CDH dog you encountered before? Lack of exposure? Wasn't your bathroom was it? If it was then I can understand why you don't care for the lines.


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## Vitto Pacheco

Well hasn't this been informative... I got my answer :::sarcasm:::


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## Timothy Stacy

No, it was a puppy displaying those behaviors! Not my dog. Just trying to help, sorry if I offended you.


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## Robin Van Hecke

Timothy Stacy said:


> No, it was a puppy displaying those behaviors! Not my dog. Just trying to help, sorry if I offended you.



No worries man, I'm grateful for the dialogue but I'm going to try the bathroom thing with my pup anyway just to dispel any doubts that may have crept in.


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## Robin Van Hecke

Vitto Pacheco said:


> Well hasn't this been informative... I got my answer :::sarcasm:::



Sorry, didn't mean to hijack.
I would talk to Jeff O in Texas. Saw one of his GSD pups here and it looks pretty nice.


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## Annamarie Somich

Vitto Pacheco said:


> I understand that these are typical questions a breeder would ask, but unless you are that breeder this seems petty.
> For your enjoyment I will answer your questions.


=;

Vitto, These are normal questions a forum would ask based on the way you have presented yourself. You have written a description for a pup that is all over the place, and is not detailed or prioritized. 

Let me help. Your requirements for a male pup are: 

1. bitework - for what? PP scenarios or competition sport (different genetics and temperaments give the pup different styles/approaches to bitework)
2. detection - hunt drive
3. ____ height for flyball

The obedience, agility, flyball ability are all a given with this breed. You need to focus on the 3 requirements above. I would add a fourth - social - if you will be attending AKC events.

4. social - minimum neutral to people

I will pm you with info about breeders.


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## Tracy Davis-Sullivan

Kadi Thingvall said:


> To late, this is already happening :-(



Just curious about the details on this. From my experiences, it appears that while there are a number of Malinois in flyball the active racing dogs these days are wash-outs, BYB, shelter pulls, or 2nd/3rd hand dogs. I haven't heard of any litter announcements or anyone talking about breeding Malinois specifically for flyball. 

and yes, most of the high-end teams have a mal or two. You pretty much need one if you want to compete in the fast Multi-breed/variety division at Can-Am these days (Mix, Whippet, Mal, BC).

Vixen's bio is on the Rocket Relay facebok page. According to them, she was last pick and a hell of a hard train at the time.

Drastic on X is Ciel Rogue and 2nd or 3rd hand. I have stayed at her house and been in the ring and in social situations with Drastic and she is not an easy dog to live with. 

Pam on Burnin' Rubber has 2 nice Mals but I believe she has also spoken up that Legend (Fastest Mal with a 3.5something) was nice an easy train either. I don't know where they came from.

In addition, all 3 of these teams are hard-core, uber dedicated teams. There are also a lot of mals running in the 4.1-4.4 range. Which is a solid team member for all but about 20 teams in the country - but it's not blow your socks off.


I can't see where the OP has any experience training or competing in Agility or Flyball. So I'd suggest that he find himself a training group that is familiar with the breed and has worked them before. I believe in Texas that Top Dog Racers has Malinois.


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## Vitto Pacheco

As I stated, I found out that I no longer can get into bite work through the Coast Guard, so I will no longer be interested in that... Not that it was my main focus. My main focus, like the title says; sport malinois. Sport being flyball and agility, which has been the main discussion throughout this post. A breeder of malinois that focus on flyball aren't shooting for the larger size dogs. At least that's what I found out talking to owners of the sport with male and reaching out to the two breeders I talked to, that I mentioned above. Because of the fact that people and other dogs encompass these events and activities, a social dog will be needed and litters that show better personalities. 

So I guess to make it easy: social, average size, and toy driven.


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## Annamarie Somich

Vitto,

Make sure your pup has a lot of toy/ball drive to where he will return quickly from the flyball box. I would also add social to humans and DOGS to your list, because you do not want dog aggression with flyball.


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## Kadi Thingvall

Tracy Davis-Sullivan said:


> Just curious about the details on this. From my experiences, it appears that while there are a number of Malinois in flyball the active racing dogs these days are wash-outs, BYB, shelter pulls, or 2nd/3rd hand dogs. I haven't heard of any litter announcements or anyone talking about breeding Malinois specifically for flyball.


I've seen litters advertised for agility/flyball, without mention of other venues, which indicates to me that was the focus of the breeding. I did a breeding a number of years ago that produced a number of very small dogs, and had a lot of inquiries asking if I would repeat the breeding specifically for flyball/agility homes. I declined LOL I know some of the people that owned dogs from that litter were also approached about breeding their dogs specifically for flyball/agility. And when I was running flyball I had people approach me all the time asking if I was going to be doing any breedings aimed at producing flyball dogs. There seems to be a solid population of people that want undersized Malinois for flyball/agility, and don't see any problem with people breeding for that.

There are also plenty of people in the flyball world doing designer breedings specifically for flyball that include Malinois as the mix. It's no huge stretch for these same people to start doing similar breedings with just Malinois.

I'm not saying it happens a lot, but it is already happening. I think more so in the conformation breeder end of things right now, but it's coming into the working world also.


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## Christopher Smith

Robin Van Hecke said:


> Given your comments in an earlier thread discussing breeders in California, it's obvious you don't like CDH Malinois and you want to go there again.....


Why you such a hater Tim?


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## Timothy Stacy

Christopher Smith said:


> Why you such a hater Tim?


Chuckle chuckle, cause your California strain of dogs aren't up to par with the rest of the USA ,LOL


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## Katie Finlay

Vitto, my statement still stands. Most Malinois are perfectly suitable for agility and flyball.

Talk to different breeders and tell them what you're looking for.


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## Katie Finlay

Timothy Stacy said:


> Chuckle chuckle, cause your California strain of dogs aren't up to par with the rest of the USA ,LOL


What do you mean? We're in the center of the universe, remember?


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## Daniel Lybbert

if you want flyball and agility why not look into a rescue mal?


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## Katie Finlay

Daniel Lybbert said:


> if you want flyball and agility why not look into a rescue mal?


Even better!


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## Chris Keister

I think think the point Robin is trying to make this type of mindset is ultimately the downfall of the breed. He is a purist in regards to the Breed. an old school guy who saw and imported a lot of the old style of NVBK and KNPV dogs. 

The breed, as whole, is not what it once was. My old competition dog was from one of his breedings and I have spent the last 10 years trying to replace her with a dog of the same quality with no luck. Health problems, temperament problems, everything that is wrong with the GSD is comming to the Mal. We just are not in as bad of shape.....yet.

A real Malinios should be an asshat that is not easy to control. A dog that carries tons of Agression. Healthy dogs. These traits are being bred out of them. ESP here in the USA. There are some that still aim for these goals but really, how many breeders are culling the shit and serious about the work? Not many, they sell the shit to the flyballers, dock divers, etc. Why cull if you can sell the shit for $1000?

If people think that is ok, well that's fine I guess, but I think the people like Robin have a very valid point as well.


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## Christopher Smith

Chris Keister said:


> I think think the point Robin is trying to make this type of mindset is ultimately the downfall of the breed. He is a purist in regards to the Breed. an old school guy who saw and imported a lot of the old style of NVBK and KNPV dogs.
> 
> The breed, as whole, is not what it once was. My old competition dog was from one of his breedings and I have spent the last 10 years trying to replace her with a dog of the same quality with no luck. Health problems, temperament problems, everything that is wrong with the GSD is comming to the Mal. We just are not in as bad of shape.....yet.
> 
> A real Malinios should be an asshat that is not easy to control. A dog that carries tons of Agression. Healthy dogs. These traits are being bred out of them. ESP here in the USA. There are some that still aim for these goals but really, how many breeders are culling the shit and serious about the work? Not many, they sell the shit to the flyballers, dock divers, etc. Why cull if you can sell the shit for $1000?
> 
> If people think that is ok, well that's fine I guess, but I think the people like Robin have a very valid point as well.


And nothing that you have written would preclude a dog from doing flyball.


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## Britney Pelletier

Robin Van Hecke said:


> Too much drive for biting, that enough for you?


now I'm REALLY confused. ](*,)


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## Robin Van Hecke

Britney Pelletier said:


> now I'm REALLY confused. ](*,)




Send me a prepaid phone card and I'll phone you, ok?


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## Britney Pelletier

Chris Keister said:


> I think think the point Robin is trying to make this type of mindset is ultimately the downfall of the breed. He is a purist in regards to the Breed. an old school guy who saw and imported a lot of the old style of NVBK and KNPV dogs.
> 
> The breed, as whole, is not what it once was. My old competition dog was from one of his breedings and I have spent the last 10 years trying to replace her with a dog of the same quality with no luck. Health problems, temperament problems, everything that is wrong with the GSD is comming to the Mal. We just are not in as bad of shape.....yet.
> 
> A real Malinios should be an asshat that is not easy to control. A dog that carries tons of Agression. Healthy dogs. These traits are being bred out of them. ESP here in the USA. There are some that still aim for these goals but really, how many breeders are culling the shit and serious about the work? Not many, they sell the shit to the flyballers, dock divers, etc. Why cull if you can sell the shit for $1000?
> 
> If people think that is ok, well that's fine I guess, but I think the people like Robin have a very valid point as well.


Do we actually need to be reminded what Malinois ARE? Herders. 

I don't disagree that the breed in general is declining to some degree, but I do disagree about the idea that they are supposed to be "out of control asshats with tons of aggression".

Malinois are generally very high drive, high energy, healthy dogs that possess the versatility to be used in a VARIETY of venues. Just because someone has a Malinois and doesn't do bitework with it doesn't mean the dog is a shitbird.. it could simply mean they just don't do bitework with it. I'm sure MANY of the agility, flyball and dock diving Malinois are also suitable for bitework, tracking, detection, etc..


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## Katie Finlay

Britney Pelletier said:


> Do we actually need to be reminded what Malinois ARE? Herders.
> 
> I don't disagree that the breed in general is declining to some degree, but I do disagree about the idea that they are supposed to be "out of control asshats with tons of aggression".
> 
> Malinois are generally very high drive, high energy, healthy dogs that possess the versatility to be used in a VARIETY of venues. Just because someone has a Malinois and doesn't do bitework with it doesn't mean the dog is a shitbird.. it could simply mean they just don't do bitework with it. I'm sure MANY of the agility, flyball and dock diving Malinois are also suitable for bitework, tracking, detection, etc..


And many of the Malinois that excel in those sports are IPO/FR/MR III. And sometimes more than one of those titles!


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## Kadi Thingvall

Chris Keister said:


> The breed, as whole, is not what it once was. My old competition dog was from one of his breedings and I have spent the last 10 years trying to replace her with a dog of the same quality with no luck. Health problems, temperament problems, everything that is wrong with the GSD is comming to the Mal. We just are not in as bad of shape.....yet.


I think you are looking at history with rose colored glasses. I've had Malinois for almost 20 years, and there were health issues, temperament issues, etc 20 years ago, just like there are today. My very first Malinois was dysplastic, back when breeders said "we don't need to x-ray, the work will sort out the unhealthy dogs". Didn't have another dysplastic dog until recently, a CdH female. But I knew of other dogs back then with HD, ED, stomach issues, etc. Same as we have now. Also poor temperaments, lack of drives, etc, same as we have now. 

I think it seems like there is more of it now because there is more in terms of numbers, but not percentages. Also the internet makes it much easier to find out about these dogs. When 10 out of 500 dogs have a problem it doesn't seem like a lot. But when 100 out of 5000 have an issue, it does seem like a lot even though both are only 2% of the population. Not to mention before, you might only know about 2 of those 10, now you probably know about 80 of the 100.

Also, back in the day, I saw breeders selling their "culls", but these dogs went into pet/protection homes, never to be seen or heard from again. Unless they were bred, but even those were harder to find. I know how hard they were to find, because I tried to research various litters, to see how they turned out, and finding all the pups from a litter was almost impossible. Now days the "culls" go into pet homes, but show up in agility, flyball, etc. Or at a local Sch or FR club. People are way more aware of the training options out there, and decide they want to do "that", whatever that is, because they saw a Malinois on YouTube do it, and they have a Malinois, so their dog must be made for it, even if it was sold as "not for work".

I'm not saying the breed doesn't have issues. But I think the core population of working dogs is in good shape, if I want to find something specific, and am willing to spend the money to get it, it's out there.


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## Britney Pelletier

Robin Van Hecke said:


> but let's be real here, giving your Mac to a Pappilion or some breed like that handler would be like giving the the keys to a Ferrari to a teenager.
> So I stand by what I said earlier, most Malinois are not the ideal flyball dogs.


Don't you think this sort of broad generalization should be made for all high drive, working line dogs? 

What breeds ARE suitable for flyball? I've seen plenty more BCs, ACDs, Australian Shepherds, JRTs, etc with nerve and temperament problems than a lot of Malinois.. so we should discourage people from using a particular breed for a particular venue so it doesn't get "watered down"?

If he was looking for a Malinois to only compete in conformation shows with, I'd have a different opinion!


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## Britney Pelletier

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I think you are looking at history with rose colored glasses. I've had Malinois for almost 20 years, and there were health issues, temperament issues, etc 20 years ago, just like there are today. My very first Malinois was dysplastic, back when breeders said "we don't need to x-ray, the work will sort out the unhealthy dogs". Didn't have another dysplastic dog until recently, a CdH female. But I knew of other dogs back then with HD, ED, stomach issues, etc. Same as we have now. Also poor temperaments, lack of drives, etc, same as we have now.
> 
> I think it seems like there is more of it now because there is more in terms of numbers, but not percentages. Also the internet makes it much easier to find out about these dogs. When 10 out of 500 dogs have a problem it doesn't seem like a lot. But when 100 out of 5000 have an issue, it does seem like a lot even though both are only 2% of the population. Not to mention before, you might only know about 2 of those 10, now you probably know about 80 of the 100.
> 
> Also, back in the day, I saw breeders selling their "culls", but these dogs went into pet/protection homes, never to be seen or heard from again. Unless they were bred, but even those were harder to find. I know how hard they were to find, because I tried to research various litters, to see how they turned out, and finding all the pups from a litter was almost impossible. Now days the "culls" go into pet homes, but show up in agility, flyball, etc. Or at a local Sch or FR club. People are way more aware of the training options out there, and decide they want to do "that", whatever that is, because they saw a Malinois on YouTube do it, and they have a Malinois, so their dog must be made for it, even if it was sold as "not for work".
> 
> I'm not saying the breed doesn't have issues. But I think the core population of working dogs is in good shape, if I want to find something specific, and am willing to spend the money to get it, it's out there.



VERY well said, Kadi!


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## Britney Pelletier

Katie Finlay said:


> And many of the Malinois that excel in those sports are IPO/FR/MR III. And sometimes more than one of those titles!


Exactly.. but I'm sure they aren't "real" enough or "aggressive" enough.


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## Timothy Stacy

overt unwarranted nervous aggression = Great dogs for the junkyard!


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## Robin Van Hecke

I think the breed has changed. My first experience with the Malinois was more than fifty years ago. I grew up within walking distance of a NVBK club, the Mechelaar was quite common. My first memories of the Malinois were when I used to go to the local cafe with my grandfather when he went for his weekly card game. The bar owner's dog was always there, often laying under the card table and I remember being told not to touch the dog. They had a reputation then and that was no problem, just the way it was. It was also very common to see the dogs muzzled when out in public.
I'm not saying that a dog like that has a place in our world today but the acceleration in the decline of what I call the Malinois character is mind boggling.
Happy flyballing, dock diving or whatever turns your crank......I'm done pushing on a rope.


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## Timothy Stacy

That's funny, Martine Loots says the opposite, even how A'Tim was a favorite of the neighborhood kids. He was born 10 to 15 years ago so I guess his genitic killer aggression was watered down a couple generations before him.


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## Katie Finlay

So the breed has always been horrifically unstable, prone to eat everyone in sight?


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## Kadi Thingvall

Robin Van Hecke said:


> I think the breed has changed. My first experience with the Malinois was more than fifty years ago. I grew up within walking distance of a NVBK club, the Mechelaar was quite common. My first memories of the Malinois were when I used to go to the local cafe with my grandfather when he went for his weekly card game. The bar owner's dog was always there, often laying under the card table and I remember being told not to touch the dog. They had a reputation then and that was no problem, just the way it was. It was also very common to see the dogs muzzled when out in public.
> I'm not saying that a dog like that has a place in our world today but the acceleration in the decline of what I call the Malinois character is mind boggling.


If you compare all Malinois to the dog you described, and consider that the only correct Malinois, then I can see where you are coming from. But I think there are two problems with that A) I've talked to many old timers, some who are unfortunately dead now, who talked about the old dogs as being social in general, or at least neutral. It was the assholes who got the added comment of "and Rover, he was not a friendly dog at all" which tells me they weren't the standard, but worth a special mention. The social or neutral ones temperaments weren't mentioned, because they were the norm, at least for these guys. Granted most of the old timers I talked to were French, don't know if that makes a difference B) we still have plenty of assholes in the breed  If you want one, they are out there. 

I also have to disagree though that being an ass = character. It's a type of character, yes, but it's not character. I've known some super social dogs who IMO had excellent character, nothing ever phased them, they took whatever you put on them and asked for more. And I've known some asshats who did not have good character.

I think in general there were more sharp dogs, in all breeds, back in the day. Because society allowed it. People respected other people's dogs, didn't assume they should/could pet every dog they encountered, etc. Now days more dogs are bred with a more tolerant temperament, simply for liability reasons. But the assholes are still out there for the people that want that kind of dog. Sometimes even when you don't want one LOL (my current youngster is growing up to be this way, and I like more social dogs)


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## Britney Pelletier

Timothy Stacy said:


> That's funny, Martine Loots says the opposite, even how A'Tim was a favorite of the neighborhood kids. He was born 10 to 15 years ago so I guess his genitic killer aggression was watered down a couple generations before him.


My boyfriend also recounts stories of going to Nicky and Bertrand's place several times years ago and Elgos would always be sunbathing on the front lawn when you pulled into the driveway.. and he was born nearly 25 years ago.. killer Malinois.


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## Nicole Stark

Robin Van Hecke said:


> My first experience with the Malinois was more than fifty years ago.


You know Robin, I probably shouldn't admit this but until today I thought you were a 38-45 year old woman.


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## Sara Waters

Vitto Pacheco said:


> As I stated, I found out that I no longer can get into bite work through the Coast Guard, so I will no longer be interested in that... Not that it was my main focus. My main focus, like the title says; sport malinois. Sport being flyball and agility, which has been the main discussion throughout this post. A breeder of malinois that focus on flyball aren't shooting for the larger size dogs. At least that's what I found out talking to owners of the sport with male and reaching out to the two breeders I talked to, that I mentioned above. Because of the fact that people and other dogs encompass these events and activities, a social dog will be needed and litters that show better personalities.
> 
> So I guess to make it easy: social, average size, and toy driven.


Add good structure to that. Sometimes breeders will offload dogs they dont think will be suitable for working or in the case of conformation breeders dogs that dont have the best conformation, into sport homes which they equate with pet quality homes.

Good structure in agility and flyball are essential. Same if you look for a rescue, really evaluate the structure is suitable.


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## Tracy Davis-Sullivan

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I've seen litters advertised for agility/flyball, without mention of other venues, which indicates to me that was the focus of the breeding.


I feel like that vast majority of breeder ads my google bot pulls up are people throwing down the terms agility and flyball. I'd be interested in hearing from Sarah where the Malinois in agility are coming from since they ones around here also seem to come froma hodge-podge including rescue.



> I did a breeding a number of years ago that produced a number of very small dogs, and had a lot of inquiries asking if I would repeat the breeding specifically for flyball/agility homes. I declined LOL I know some of the people that owned dogs from that litter were also approached about breeding their dogs specifically for flyball/agility. And when I was running flyball I had people approach me all the time asking if I was going to be doing any breedings aimed at producing flyball dogs.


oh, I thought that people had actually produced breedings. Really, people are whores when it comes to smaller, fast dogs that can have a reputation as being "point and shoot" or "fast train" dogs.



> There seems to be a solid population of people that want undersized Malinois for flyball/agility, and don't see any problem with people breeding for that.


Well, smaller is easier to handle sometimes. and there's that whole less food, smaller crate thing.



> There are also plenty of people in the flyball world doing designer breedings specifically for flyball that include Malinois as the mix. It's no huge stretch for these same people to start doing similar breedings with just Malinois.


Lisa's the only one I know of and I think only one is with a predominately flyball home up in Canada. I've never seen or heard of another Malinois/BC litter. People have started breeding more and more mega-mixes a la Blue Cedar but those don't have Malinois in them.

Really, people are a little scared of handling Mals. They've seen the unintentional damage some of the really fast ones do to their handlers and start oogling Borderstaffies or Borderwhippets.



> I'm not saying it happens a lot, but it is already happening. I think more so in the conformation breeder end of things right now, but it's coming into the working world also.


I think you'll see it come up in agility sooner rather than later but when people heard that we were looking at an Malinois (mix from an accident), I got numerous offers to "find us a nice, fast BC that won't be crazy".

Again - to the OP. Rescue. Find yourself a nicly structured young dog with a ton of play and toy drive and have a blast. The Malinois rescue has a handful of volunteers who could keep an eye out for a nice prospect.


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## Geoff Empey

Tracy Davis-Sullivan said:


> Pam on Burnin' Rubber has 2 nice Mals but I believe she has also spoken up that Legend (Fastest Mal with a 3.5something) was nice an easy train either. I don't know where they came from.


That's my breeding 'Legend' has done 3.4s now. She also trains Ringsport with us as well so she isn't 'just' a flyball dog. 

Personally I would never breed a Malinois specifically for a sport like flyball or would even pretend that one of my dogs would even be good at that, I know they would be good as Legend is currently one of the or the fastest Flyball Malinois in the world. But they are so much more than that. Any puppy buyer needs to understand what they are getting. Just getting a Malinois just because you want to do Flyball or agility is not what the breed should be pointed towards IMO. A Malinois for me needs to bite and will do atypical Malinois behaviours and never stop. They are not a dog to be just a agility dog, so I wouldn't even feel comfortable selling a pup to a home like that unless it was someone with a lot of experience. Not to be rude or anything but it is the truth. 

Really the OP should lean towards a Border Collie. They are much more suited for what he wants. Or just to go to a rescue or search for a rehome if he wants a Malinois, he can find a suitable young adult easily.

To me once people start just wanting Malinois just for these tasks the original purpose of the breed as a herding, guarding, detection dog starts to become lost. 

For example I have seen and 'heard' many American Showline German Shepherd owners and breeders say "ohhh our dogs could be police dogs but we choose just not to train them like that" and other baloney like that. But in reality these dogs can barely find the food in their bowls and are nerve bag DA pieces of crap. Is this what the public want the Malinois to be in 4-5-6 generations? 

Right now for me the Malinois is at a cross roads as it has become so popular because of the Bin Laden raid and their use a PSD and MWD so it has become the performance breed of the month. So to me that is a dangerous thing for the overall long term integrity of the breed. 

There is something about N/A breeders in the AKC and CKC that seem to take the work out of working breeds. When they start breeding for ear set, colour and sell pups because they are 'cute' or they maybe good at agility and flyball, it is the beginning of the end. That is what is happening to the Malinois IMO now. It pisses me off.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Geoff Empey said:


> To me once people start just wanting Malinois just for these tasks the original purpose of the breed as a herding, guarding, detection dog starts to become lost.
> .


Agreed. I would be leery of "breeding for" flyball, agility with herding/protection breeds. Sure within those breeds, you have dogs that are probably capable of other things but I still feel we should be breeding for that original purpose. I breed/select for the utilization with livestock. Sure they can & do other things but that's not the breeding purpose. Find a breeder breeding for the original purpose and who understands what you need for your other activities and can help you select within their stock or refer you elsewhere.

Terrasita


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## Sara Waters

Geoff Empey said:


> Really the OP should lean towards a Border Collie. They are much more suited for what he wants. Or just to go to a rescue or search for a rehome if he wants a Malinois, he can find a suitable young adult easily.
> 
> To me once people start just wanting Malinois just for these tasks the original purpose of the breed as a herding, guarding, detection dog starts to become lost.
> 
> There is something about N/A breeders in the AKC and CKC that seem to take the work out of working breeds. When they start breeding for ear set, colour and sell pups because they are 'cute' or they maybe good at agility and flyball, it is the beginning of the end. That is what is happening to the Malinois IMO now. It pisses me off.


The working BC people would say the same. I know from the working BC boards that I belong to that breeding specifically for agility or flyball is like waving a red rag at a bull. There is nothing that infuriates them more.

Border collies make ideal sport dogs but again you need to look at structure, temperament, drive. There are plenty of poorly bred loopy Border collies out there bred for point and shoot, that can be more than a handfull and often totaly unsuitable in the wrong hands.


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## Geoff Empey

Yeah really who am I to say since I just do a sport even though it involves bite work it still is 'just' a sport. Am lucky that with Legend's litter I have multiple litter mates doing well in high level sport. But also have one working as a family estate guardian and another certified as an avalanche SAR dog. To me this is what the pinnacle of what a Malinois can be capable of and what every breeder should and would want for their litters. Especially the SAR point, to me there is nothing more honourable in having an animal that can save others lives. 



Sara Waters said:


> The working BC people would say the same. I know from the working BC boards that I belong to that breeding specifically for agility or flyball is like waving a red rag at a bull. There is nothing that infuriates them more.
> 
> Border collies make ideal sport dogs but again you need to look at structure, temperament, drive. There are plenty of poorly bred loopy Border collies out there bred for point and shoot, that can be more than a handfull and often totaly unsuitable in the wrong hands.


 I agree Sara. I shouldn't be making generalizations there is 'handfuls' in every breed. The 'working' BC people are very militant about it for sure, and my hat is off to them for being just that. Where we train the local border collie club's agility field is there. The facility is a multisport facility with Agility, Disc, Ringsport, Flyball and IPO all practice here. So we see a parade of many different sport dogs come through. You can tell the 'real' BCs vs the crappers just like you would any other breed.


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## Sara Waters

Tracy Davis-Sullivan said:


> I feel like that vast majority of breeder ads my google bot pulls up are people throwing down the terms agility and flyball. I'd be interested in hearing from Sarah where the Malinois in agility are coming from since they ones around here also seem to come froma hodge-podge including rescue.


The malinois that I run against in agility are imported dogs from Holland and Denmark. They are from pedigree lines that are elible for ANKC registration. They are light and fast around 23.5-25 inches in height I would think as my BC is 22 inches although my BC is of lighter structure. They all have very nice temperaments, very biddable and very toy driven.

I know nothing about Mals as these are the first that I have ever seen. So I have no idea what I should be comparing then with. You wouldnt find any in rescue I would think as they are just not common here.

I see the occassional black Belgian shepherd (cant remember what they are officially called) in the show ring but rarely see them in agility and when I do they dont seem too motivated about the whole thing. But that is where my knowledge starts and ends with these types of dogs.


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## rick smith

total W.A.G. of course, but i could see how mal owners who basically are looking for "fun" dog that can do agility and still be primarily a house pet, are also the same types of people who think biting is a bad behavior ... so they get the mal because it is "cool" and impressive; then give it no outlet for biting and eventually the problems crop up. 
- btw, i'm not basing this on first hand experience w/ mals, but i DO base it on MANY other breed cases where the owner has squashed all biting as if it's evil, and the dog grows up frustrated without having any bite control. and i'm not talking about lap dogs. in every single case once i can show them that it is really not hard to teach the dog that biting is ok (tug/wedges, etc) and not "dangerous aggression", and how to teach a solid out, etc., the dog balances out and all is good
- i'm sure this could apply with mal owners, but it still boils down to not taking the time to learn basic canine behavior and specific breed genetics, which to me is just as important as knowing how to train any behavior for ANY sport

there may be a few companion breeds who only use their mouth for filling their stomach and licking their owners, but they are few and far between imo.


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## Sara Waters

rick smith said:


> total W.A.G. of course, but i could see how mal owners who basically are looking for "fun" dog that can do agility and still be primarily a house pet, are also the same types of people who think biting is a bad behavior ... so they get the mal because it is "cool" and impressive; then give it no outlet for biting and eventually the problems crop up.
> - btw, i'm not basing this on first hand experience w/ mals, but i DO base it on MANY other breed cases where the owner has squashed all biting as if it's evil, and the dog grows up frustrated without having any bite control. and i'm not talking about lap dogs. in every single case once i can show them that it is really not hard to teach the dog that biting is ok (tug/wedges, etc) and not "dangerous aggression", and how to teach a solid out, etc., the dog balances out and all is good
> - i'm sure this could apply with mal owners, but it still boils down to not taking the time to learn basic canine behavior and specific breed genetics, which to me is just as important as knowing how to train any behavior for ANY sport
> 
> there may be a few companion breeds who only use their mouth for filling their stomach and licking their owners, but they are few and far between imo.


Well if you want a good agility dog a game of tug is par for the course in many cases. Mine all love a good game of tug which I encourage as do most other agility enthusiasts. Most agility people I have anything to do with are very savvy dog owners with high octane dogs well under control and well trained. I am not sure where this belief comes from that people who do agility are somehow inferior trainers. Many I know have working or field bred dogs and excel across many disciplines and many of the dogs, although not all, are also house dogs. 

Cattle dogs have biting in their original breeding and both of mine love a good game of tug, one in particular is very mouthy but they could live with out it and not have any problems.


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## Kadi Thingvall

Sara Waters said:


> Well if you want a good agility dog a game of tug is par for the course in many cases. Mine all love a good game of tug which I encourage as do most other agility enthusiasts. Most agility people I have anything to do with are very savvy dog owners with high octane dogs well under control and well trained. I am not sure where this belief comes from that people who do agility are somehow inferior trainers. Many I know have working or field bred dogs and excel across many disciplines and many of the dogs, although not all, are also house dogs.


It may be location, it may be venue, but I have to admit when I started agility in my area I was SHOCKED at the lack of control on many of the high drive dogs. And the sheer number of people being bit by their own dogs during and after their runs. And if they weren't getting bit, it was because they were reasonably good at fending the dog off, not because the dog wasn't trying to bite. I actually talked to a couple of judges about it at trials, told them in a single agility trial I'd seen more people bitten then I'd ever seen in protection sports. I'm talking bites that draw blood, although most don't require medical care. A few did thought. The irony being one of the judges I talked to, was shortly after the conversation bitten by a competitors dog.

I've got a few dogs in agility homes and doing well, but I've had just as many that went into agility homes that were rehomed because they were to much for the owner (to much bite). Or in a few cases the owner still has them, but its iffy if they have a handle on the dog and they may or may not get bit.

I do think it's different taking a high drive dog like a BC, or field bred Lab, or pointing breed, etc and doing agility and taking a dog like a Malinois. The first group is bred for drive, but not breed for drive = bite. Malinois are bred for the bite. I know a number of successful BC owners who got a Malinois, and got rid of it, because they couldn't deal with the "bite factor". A few of those Malinois were from me.


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## Geoff Empey

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I've got a few dogs in agility homes and doing well, but I've had just as many that went into agility homes that were rehomed because they were to much for the owner (to much bite). Or in a few cases the owner still has them, but its iffy if they have a handle on the dog and they may or may not get bit.
> 
> I do think it's different taking a high drive dog like a BC, or field bred Lab, or pointing breed, etc and doing agility and taking a dog like a Malinois. The first group is bred for drive, but not breed for drive = bite. Malinois are bred for the bite. I know a number of successful BC owners who got a Malinois, and got rid of it, because they couldn't deal with the "bite factor".


Truth truth truth!! \\/

When people are looking for pointy eared golden retrievers and think a Malinois is just that, that is the danger. I've seen enough Malinois just ruined by pet mentality owners and these dogs end up rehomed in a shelter or worse euthanized, just because they are Malinois and do what Malinois do.


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## Konnie Hein

Geoff Empey said:


> A Malinois for me needs to bite and will do atypical Malinois behaviours and never stop. They are not a dog to be just a agility dog, so I wouldn't even feel comfortable selling a pup to a home like that unless it was someone with a lot of experience. Not to be rude or anything but it is the truth.


What is the difference between selling a dog to an agility/flyball competitor and selling it for SAR? Neither dog is going to be biting.


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## Kadi Thingvall

On the flip side though Geoff I will still say that IMO this is a handler issue, not a breed issue. With the right handler, who understands the breed, Malinois can excel in sports like agility. But handlers can't assume because they have had a couple of BC's they know everything there is to know about drivey dogs, and won't have any issues with a Malinois. I wouldn't presume to know anything about BCs and "eye" just because I've owned high drive Malinois. Although I have a new Mali pup who has more eye than I've ever seen in a Malinois. Almost seems a shame to do bitesports with her instead of herding. LOL


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## Daniel Lybbert

I thought Id weigh in on this topic. I have just got a new mal about 3 months ago. He is titled in agility and is supposed to be a flyball extrodanier. Not as fast as Ledgend though. I got him because he bit the womans kid. I dont think it was mean. He just is a young mal. 
He has been one of the most fun ring dogs I have ever worked. He learns fast jumps hard he does everything fast and hard like a Mal should. In 3 months he is close for a brevet. If I was in agility I dont see a problem with him there. Just have a problem with me there.
I believe a good mal should and is able to do anything. Handlers just need to be able to control the dog and the situation the dog is in. Be it flyball herding ring of police. 
Granted some are better at certian things than others. There are almost different breed with in the breed itself.


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## Sara Waters

Kadi Thingvall said:


> It may be location, it may be venue, but I have to admit when I started agility in my area I was SHOCKED at the lack of control on many of the high drive dogs. And the sheer number of people being bit by their own dogs during and after their runs. And if they weren't getting bit, it was because they were reasonably good at fending the dog off, not because the dog wasn't trying to bite. I actually talked to a couple of judges about it at trials, told them in a single agility trial I'd seen more people bitten then I'd ever seen in protection sports. I'm talking bites that draw blood, although most don't require medical care. A few did thought. The irony being one of the judges I talked to, was shortly after the conversation bitten by a competitors dog.
> 
> I've got a few dogs in agility homes and doing well, but I've had just as many that went into agility homes that were rehomed because they were to much for the owner (to much bite). Or in a few cases the owner still has them, but its iffy if they have a handle on the dog and they may or may not get bit.
> 
> I do think it's different taking a high drive dog like a BC, or field bred Lab, or pointing breed, etc and doing agility and taking a dog like a Malinois. The first group is bred for drive, but not breed for drive = bite. Malinois are bred for the bite. I know a number of successful BC owners who got a Malinois, and got rid of it, because they couldn't deal with the "bite factor". A few of those Malinois were from me.


Could be location I guess. We have a reletively small and tight dog sport community of maybe 150-200 with a range of dogs from JRTs and Border collies to high drive rotties and GSDS and a couple of Mals. Bad behaviour at trials is simply not tolerated and the judges are pretty hard nosed and have no compunction tossing you out of the ring, or reporting bad behaviour. 

If you turn up with an out of control dog you soon find yourself wanting to slink off never to return until control is established. I have seen dogs biting in the ring only once and that was soon sorted with help from more experienced people. A high drive BC that bites in the ring is usually because the handler is confusing the dog and the team lacks the foundation for good communication. One thing I work on over and over with my high drive lad is my handling so he understands exactly where we are going in advance.

Most handlers take the whole thing pretty seriously and I would be pretty sure there are plenty among that community that could handle a Mal. There are a number of professional dog trainers among them who have handled a number of different types of dogs in different capacities outside of agility. One of them who specialises in dog aggression, helped me greatly with a very fear aggressive cattle dog that I was dealing with once.

There are no protection sports of any type where I live or I can imagine that some of the people in that community would be in to it. We just do what we can with the venues we have available.

However the BC/kelpie and crosses theroff are undoubtably the dog of choice for the most competitive handlers. There are few breeds that would consistantly beat a well trained and well handled BC or kelpie in the agility ring, so they are probably and ideal choice really. I enjoy running my cattle dogs and they can be pretty speedy with good power jumping but no match really for the fastest Border collies. If you want to run in the top height where the Mals run, quite a few male working bred Border collies will make that height and they are very hard to beat.


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## Carole Goetzelmann

Britney Pelletier said:


> Do we actually need to be reminded what Malinois ARE? Herders.


My Malinois is an awesome herder! Though I can't say much for her breeding. She does have a lot of drive. 

Malinois was the second most common breed of dog at the FCI World Champion Agility competition this year. That is, there were 127 Border Collies and 6 Malinois, and 8 other dogs (large dog category, by the results listed below). You just can't beat Border Collies for top agility dogs, though. But these are the best agility dogs in the world and I'm proud that Malinois are among them. 

http://results.agility2012.cz/26_R_Agility Large.html

I worry that the TV show featuring a Malinois this year is going result in a lot of Malinois in shelters and rescue next year.


----------



## Sara Waters

Geoff Empey said:


> Truth truth truth!! \\/
> 
> When people are looking for pointy eared golden retrievers and think a Malinois is just that, that is the danger. I've seen enough Malinois just ruined by pet mentality owners and these dogs end up rehomed in a shelter or worse euthanized, just because they are Malinois and do what Malinois do.


I dont think anyone I know who is serious about what they do would confuse a Mal as a pointy eared golden retriever. The people I have anything to do with are under no misunderstanding of what different breeds are about. The working bred BC is primarily the dog of choice by them because of how well suited it is to agility. 

Working Border collies, cattle dogs and kelpies have a huge dumpage rate by pet mentality owners over here. You wont see that coming from the agility community, in fact quite a few have picked up these rescue dogs and turned them into excellent agility and obedience dogs. I have a dumped working bred dog myself who is a a real gem both on my sheep and in sport venues.


----------



## Geoff Empey

Konnie Hein said:


> What is the difference between selling a dog to an agility/flyball competitor and selling it for SAR? Neither dog is going to be biting.


Because in SAR it is using it's genetics as a working dog not as a 'play' dog. I don't agree in just breeding for those softer sports as that isn't what a Malinois is. I won't say that they can't do it but really why would any breeder want that as their first choice where a pup would go? I'd prefer a weekend warrior SAR home any day over a weekend warrior flyball/agility home any day.


----------



## Britney Pelletier

Sara Waters said:


> The working BC people would say the same. I know from the working BC boards that I belong to that breeding specifically for agility or flyball is like waving a red rag at a bull. There is nothing that infuriates them more.



Exactly.. anyone who breeds any working breed SHOULD say the same.


----------



## Geoff Empey

Sara Waters said:


> I dont think anyone I know who is serious about what they do would confuse a Mal as a pointy eared golden retriever. The people I have anything to do with are under no misunderstanding of what different breeds are about.


Yeah serious people have no issue in what is what. But many times I have seen a molosser breeds Boerbels, Presas etc want to try Ringsport. They never understand why the dogs don't do well. As much as I want to help them it has always been a disaster, so now I just politely steer them away. These are the same rose coloured glasses people look through in having a Malinois as first choice to do Flyball/Agility. 

Sure Malinois can do it but I've known multiple handlers who have been opened up requiring trips to the hospital by their Mals catching them on the hands or wrist catching tugs and the such. It's not the dogs fault or the handlers it is just a Malinois doing what it does. I'll repeat that you need to be an experienced handler and understand what a Malinois is in the first place. Malinois are reactive with a quick hair trigger but with the same type of speed and agility as a BC. Then add in the added liability of living through a world where everything is explored with it's teeth.


----------



## Britney Pelletier

Geoff Empey said:


> Because in SAR it is using it's genetics as a working dog not as a 'play' dog. I don't agree in just breeding for those softer sports as that isn't what a Malinois is. I won't say that they can't do it but really why would any breeder want that as their first choice where a pup would go? I'd prefer a weekend warrior SAR home any day over a weekend warrior flyball/agility home any day.


What genetics do you think they use in SAR that they may or may not be using in other 'softer' venues?

My perspective would be that, just because we see the finished 'product' in agility and flyball, doesn't mean we know what goes into training for it.


----------



## Tracy Davis-Sullivan

Sara Waters said:


> The malinois that I run against in agility are imported dogs from Holland and Denmark. They are from pedigree lines that are elible for ANKC registration. They are light and fast around 23.5-25 inches in height I would think as my BC is 22 inches although my BC is of lighter structure. They all have very nice temperaments, very biddable and very toy driven.
> 
> I know nothing about Mals as these are the first that I have ever seen. So I have no idea what I should be comparing then with. You wouldnt find any in rescue I would think as they are just not common here.
> 
> I see the occassional black Belgian shepherd (cant remember what they are officially called) in the show ring but rarely see them in agility and when I do they dont seem too motivated about the whole thing. But that is where my knowledge starts and ends with these types of dogs.


Thanks Sarah. That's very interesting. We still live in the world of Border Collies around here. There are, for sure, some nice ones. But it still gets pretty boring one after another after another.


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## Tracy Davis-Sullivan

Geoff Empey said:


> Truth truth truth!! \\/
> 
> When people are looking for pointy eared golden retrievers and think a Malinois is just that, that is the danger. I've seen enough Malinois just ruined by pet mentality owners and these dogs end up rehomed in a shelter or worse euthanized, just because they are Malinois and do what Malinois do.


I have run across a handful of BC people are very confused about how and why we flyball trained and handle Marvel the way we do. and it's because he will bite you. 

We joke that it's called Belgian Kissing, like French Kissing but with teeth.


ETA - Geoff - I've enjoyed the videos of Legend. Pam and I were just having a laugh about handling big, powerful dogs in the flyball lanes. It's certainly an adventure. Especially when you are a girly-looking girl.


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## Thomas Barriano

Geoff Empey said:


> Because in SAR it is using it's genetics as a working dog not as a 'play' dog. I don't agree in just breeding for those softer sports as that isn't what a Malinois is. I won't say that they can't do it but really why would any breeder want that as their first choice where a pup would go? I'd prefer a weekend warrior SAR home any day over a weekend warrior flyball/agility home any day.


Flyball and Agility etc. (the softer sports) are what some people do NOT what anyone should breed for IMO


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## Konnie Hein

Thomas Barriano said:


> Flyball and Agility etc. (the softer sports) are what some people do NOT what anyone should breed for IMO


I personally do not breed for those sports. Nor do I only breed for SAR. However, I have sold dogs to experienced SAR, flyball and agility people. Those dogs were all entirely capable of participating in bite sports, and were not "culls" by any stretch of the imagination. As far as I know, none of those pups are currently holding their owners hostage in their own homes, but that's because the owners are completely capable of dealing with the pups I sent them.

I can say that the hardcore agility and flyball people give their dogs a heck of a workout. There's a ton of intricate training involved that outsiders to those sports don't have a clue about.

I totally disagree with Geoff (sorry  ) that "play" or "real work" is any part of the equation when comparing performance sports to SAR in the dog's mind. The dog has no idea of the seriousness of his work. I know some flyball and agility people who put as much or more work into their dogs for competition as the average SAR handler/trainer. Yes, there are flyball and agility dogs who are not capable of SAR, but that's not what we're talking about. If I understand you correctly, you were saying a dog isn't totally fulfilled unless he's doing bitework, unless it is "real" work like SAR, and I disagree.


----------



## Katie Finlay

Konnie Hein said:


> I personally do not breed for those sports. Nor do I only breed for SAR. However, I have sold dogs to experienced SAR, flyball and agility people. Those dogs were all entirely capable of participating in bite sports, and were not "culls" by any stretch of the imagination. As far as I know, none of those pups are currently holding their owner's hostage in their own homes, but that's because the owners are completely capable of dealing with the pups I sent them.
> 
> I can say that the hardcore agility and flyball people give their dogs a heck of a workout. There's a ton of intricate training involved that outsiders to those sports don't have a clue about.
> 
> I totally disagree with Geoff (sorry  ) that "play" or "real work" is any part of the equation when comparing performance sports to SAR in the dog's mind. The dog has no idea of the seriousness of his work. I know some flyball and agility people who put as much or more work into their dogs for competition as the average SAR handler/trainer. Yes, there are flyball and agility dogs who are not capable of SAR, but that's not what we're talking about. If I understand you correctly, you were saying a dog isn't totally fulfilled unless he's doing bitework, unless it is "real" work like SAR, and I disagree.


I like this Konnie. Well said and I agree.


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## Konnie Hein

Geoff Empey said:


> Because in SAR it is using it's genetics as a working dog not as a 'play' dog. I don't agree in just breeding for those softer sports as that isn't what a Malinois is. I won't say that they can't do it but really why would any breeder want that as their first choice where a pup would go? I'd prefer a weekend warrior SAR home any day over a weekend warrior flyball/agility home any day.


What about the dog's genetics makes agility and flyball so artificial vs. SAR?

I'm not following this logic at all. 

Sure, we can talk about "real" vs. "play," but then I guess then the categories would go more like this:

Real - SAR, Police (single and dual purpose)
Play - Performance sports (including bite sports)


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## Britney Pelletier

Konnie Hein said:


> I personally do not breed for those sports. Nor do I only breed for SAR. However, I have sold dogs to experienced SAR, flyball and agility people. Those dogs were all entirely capable of participating in bite sports, and were not "culls" by any stretch of the imagination. As far as I know, none of those pups are currently holding their owners hostage in their own homes, but that's because the owners are completely capable of dealing with the pups I sent them.
> 
> I can say that the hardcore agility and flyball people give their dogs a heck of a workout. There's a ton of intricate training involved that outsiders to those sports don't have a clue about.
> 
> I totally disagree with Geoff (sorry  ) that "play" or "real work" is any part of the equation when comparing performance sports to SAR in the dog's mind. The dog has no idea of the seriousness of his work. I know some flyball and agility people who put as much or more work into their dogs for competition as the average SAR handler/trainer. Yes, there are flyball and agility dogs who are not capable of SAR, but that's not what we're talking about. If I understand you correctly, you were saying a dog isn't totally fulfilled unless he's doing bitework, unless it is "real" work like SAR, and I disagree.


Couldn't have said it better myself. Thanks, Konnie!


----------



## Geoff Empey

Konnie Hein said:


> What about the dog's genetics makes agility and flyball so artificial vs. SAR?
> 
> I'm not following this logic at all.
> 
> Sure, we can talk about "real" vs. "play," but then I guess then the categories would go more like this:
> 
> Real - SAR, Police (single and dual purpose)
> Play - Performance sports (including bite sports)


Yes it is always real for the dogs no matter what they do or what venue. I mean real work for the dogs from a people perspective. People have a great flyball or dock diving dog that doesn't make it a great Malinois. People let's try not get to delusional here. 

So apples and oranges do you think that a really good rubble dog will do well at flyball? I think yes it could. Do I think that your great flyball dog will be able to step up on the rubble and excel, maybe? Are you going to breed all the great agility Malinois when you are tinkering for your next breeding Konnie? ... Yup I didn't think so. 

To be clear I am not fou-fouing any of those sports flyball, dock, agility I see the work done by Pam and her team and others, sat in on sessions watched listened and learned. But to be clear I won't ever recommend a Malinois pup just because it is a Malinois to be specifically for that type of work 'cough' play. I'd rather see a Malinois elsewhere or working and playing in something else on top of those games as they are so much more capable than just THAT! Those sports don't define the breed and they never should.


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## Sara Waters

Geoff Empey said:


> I'd rather see a Malinois elsewhere or working and playing in something else on top of those games as they are so much more capable than just THAT! Those sports don't define the breed and they never should.


 
First of all I totally agree with Konnie about the intricate training and workouts that go into the top agility dogs. Some handlers I know are training multiple high drive dogs as they often have young ones coming on and they are so well handled and trained.

I also tend to agree that the sports probably shouldnt define the breed although it is human nature to do so.

The working border collie folk believe that a BC should be defined by its herding ability and that a well bred working dog should then be able to be trained for a sport like agility rather than purpose bred for it. Mine are dual purpose so they get to do both. However most people dont have sheep and the BC may be capable of much more but they love agility and excel so I cant see it really matters. There are plenty out there working for their living.

I am interested as to what the original Malinois was like as a herding dog. 

I know that cattle dogs were bred to bite as they had to deal with rangeland cattle. These tough and dangerous animals need a tough dog to deal with them. A true Australian rangeland bred working bred cattle dog is a tough little character and totally unsuitable for an inexperienced owner. You very rarely see these dogs out of the pastoral areas and even there they are being replaced by mechanisation.

Even the bench cattle dogs purpose bred for temperament can be a mixed bag and often find themselves in the pound because of some of the characteristics that define them as cattle dogs. 

Was a Malinois originally bred to bite. I would have thought if they herded sheep they wouldnt be. Cattle dogs are often unsuitable for sheep work because of the way they have been bred to handle pastoral cattle.


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## Kadi Thingvall

Sara Waters said:


> I am interested as to what the original Malinois was like as a herding dog.


There are quite a few articles regarding the Belgian Shepherd and herding on Peggy's site at http://www.kuymal.com/articles.html

To summarize though they were used to work small to medium flocks that were kept locked up at night to protect them from predators, and taken out during the day to graze. Also on occasion small groups of cattle, but mainly sheep, and sheep known to them, ie not feral. And as protection for the herder, and at night the home.

Their original uses were pretty similar to the GSD. But by the time the breed was actually being developed their use in herding was dropping off, times were changing and they were being utilized for different jobs.

I wrote an article on the Belgians, basically a timeline of their development as a herding dog vs police/protection/military dog. There is no argument they are a herding dog, but there are people who attempt to argue their use in police/protection work came much later in the breeds history, basically being a recent developement and not an "original purpose" The research the article is based on pretty much dispells this. http://www.dantero.com/belg_history.php


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## Sara Waters

Interesting articles. I have learned a fair bit about these Belgian Shepherds. 

Does anyone purpose breed them for herding for commercial farms or has that purpose largely dissapeared. Would a dog purpose bred for modern herding duties differ a fair bit for one bred for the non herding pursuits? One would have to think that this would be so, based on my knowledge of running sheep, where biting is generally unacceptable and other traits are more important.

Interesting that out of the 4 types that the Malinois seems to excel in the protection sports. Where are the other 3 types placed. Are they more suitable for other venues? 

In retrospect after reading more about them I think the "mals" I run against in agility are actually Tervurens as they are the same colour but have more coat. Darn confusing!


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## Konnie Hein

Geoff Empey said:


> Yes it is always real for the dogs no matter what they do or what venue. I mean real work for the dogs from a people perspective. People have a great flyball or dock diving dog that doesn't make it a great Malinois. People let's try not get to delusional here.


Who is saying that here? Who is delusional?



> So apples and oranges do you think that a really good rubble dog will do well at flyball? I think yes it could. Do I think that your great flyball dog will be able to step up on the rubble and excel, maybe? Are you going to breed all the great agility Malinois when you are tinkering for your next breeding Konnie? ... Yup I didn't think so.


You have totally missed my point. Please re-read my statements.



> To be clear I am not fou-fouing any of those sports flyball, dock, agility I see the work done by Pam and her team and others, sat in on sessions watched listened and learned. But to be clear I won't ever recommend a Malinois pup just because it is a Malinois to be specifically for that type of work 'cough' play. I'd rather see a Malinois elsewhere or working and playing in something else on top of those games as they are so much more capable than just THAT! Those sports don't define the breed and they never should.


I don't think anybody has said those sports should define the breed (although if somebody feels that way, our opinions likely won't mean squat to them). You're changing what you've said previously in this thread. 
Here's what you said, Geoff:


> A Malinois for me needs to bite and will do atypical Malinois behaviours and never stop.


And it's just not true. That's my point. You're saying a Malinois can't possibly be happy in a home where it is not doing YOUR definition of "real" work. Tell that to the breeding females that I purchased as untitled, rarely worked adults. Despite being high drive dogs, they don't do any "real" work by your definition. They hike, they hunt for a ball for fun, and ya, every once in a great while I goof around with them with the leg sleeves so I can practice getting accidentally bit in the thigh. They are not nuisance barkers, crate spinners, kennel pacers, or vicious killers, and I think they are deliriously happy. I don't see any "atypical Malinois behaviors" at all. Yet these females have a pretty important (maybe even "real") job here, and I think they are quite good at it.

Here's the thing, everybody's definition of "real" is different. My definition of "real work" doesn't include protection sports actually, but I do use protection sports as a guide (one of many) for evaluating the performance of my breeding program for sure. That doesn't mean I'm going to cut off people who want a dog from me to do agility. When I'm evaluating prospective owners for my litters, I am hoping to find the best possible home for each pup - where both the owner and the dog will be satisfied. If you look at my past litters page on my website, you'll see that most of those homes are indeed sport protection homes, but sometimes that's not the best fit. And often the reason for that isn't because the dog can't do protection sports. 

And, of course, everybody's definition of what a good Malinois is differs wildly. And I'm OK with that. It's not something I have any control over anyhow. Diversity is a good thing.


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## Kadi Thingvall

Sara Waters said:


> Does anyone purpose breed them for herding for commercial farms or has that purpose largely dissapeared.


I don't know of anyone who is purpose breeding them with only herding as the focus, but there are quite a few people breeding them with herding as part of the equation. 



> Would a dog purpose bred for modern herding duties differ a fair bit for one bred for the non herding pursuits? One would have to think that this would be so, based on my knowledge of running sheep, where biting is generally unacceptable and other traits are more important.


IMO no, the dogs I've done herding with have all been from "protection sport lines", ie a pedigree of dogs that have done FR, BR, Sch, police, etc. Those are the lines I breed, but I've placed a number of dogs on farms and ranches where they are working sheep or cattle on a regular basis. These are not the "bitework culls" either, they are dogs that just as easily could have gone and done protection sports or police/protection work, they just went into herding instead. There are actually a number of AKC/performance type breeders who also place dogs into sport and farm/ranch herding homes.

Outside of the bite you might see dogs who are purpose bred showing a little more eye, or a different size (I could see people wanting a more moderately sized dog), or better at driving, some other traits but I think breeding for bite, or less bite, would be more about the breeders personal preferance and less about the job. But then again I heard for YEARS when I started herding with my Malinois that they only reason that they hadn't killed the livestock was because I hadn't been doing it long enough, and given the chance, I'd be buying dead livestock eventually. After trialing many dogs, all from bitework lines, people have finally realized just because they are from bitework lines, or in some cases have titles in protection sports, doesn't mean they don't know the difference between a decoy and the livestock. 



> Interesting that out of the 4 types that the Malinois seems to excel in the protection sports. Where are the other 3 types placed. Are they more suitable for other venues?


Most of the Tervs, Groens and Lakens are in conformation or performance (agility, obedience, flyball, etc) homes. Also herding homes. I think in terms of numbers you will see more "long hairs" competing in herding than the Malinois, but at least from what I've seen at trials, the Malinois are the stronger dogs when it comes to difficult sheep or cattle.

Most of the Tervs you see in the protection sports are only a generation or two removed from Malinois, they ae basically long haired Malinois.



> In retrospect after reading more about them I think the "mals" I run against in agility are actually Tervurens as they are the same colour but have more coat. Darn confusing!


Probably are, if they have more coat.


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## Sara Waters

The Malinois is certainly not common over here but from what I read are starting to making an appearance in the police force which I think is currently dominated by German Shepherds bred using imported semen from Europe. I think the airforce may use quite a few. 

I doubt if many farmers would know what they are as the kelpie is probably the dominant australian herding dog. I certainly had never heard of them.

Tervs and Groens are not uncommon in the show ring, but I rarely see them outside that venue.

Will be interesting to see what happens in the future with the Mal in Australia.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Sara Waters said:


> Interesting articles. I have learned a fair bit about these Belgian Shepherds.
> 
> Does anyone purpose breed them for herding for commercial farms or has that purpose largely dissapeared. Would a dog purpose bred for modern herding duties differ a fair bit for one bred for the non herding pursuits? One would have to think that this would be so, based on my knowledge of running sheep, where biting is generally unacceptable and other traits are more important.
> 
> Interesting that out of the 4 types that the Malinois seems to excel in the protection sports. Where are the other 3 types placed. Are they more suitable for other venues?
> 
> In retrospect after reading more about them I think the "mals" I run against in agility are actually Tervurens as they are the same colour but have more coat. Darn confusing!


In your herding culture, biting is unacceptable. That You also run different type of sheep. GSDs were bred for the quality and placement of the grip along with other traits considered useful. Part of the whole grip issue is the dog knowing when/where/how to do it. These ares selected for traits as well. I think you can amp the prey/chase drive to a point that the dog is dysfunctional as a herding dog. It was the feel and quality of the dog's bite work that made me want to test the last GSD I was hot on [still am]. He has instinctive heading, balance, and containment. There was a DDR 6 month old puppy that hadas much eye/finesse as a good BC. The power/fight dog, Doc was clear as a bell and biddable. All of these dogs were bred for and trained in bitework. It had no negative cross over to stock work and their stock work instincts were intact. A young dog I currently have my eye on is purpose bred for bitework only. Doesn't mean his herding package isn't still intact. GSDs can have over the top object drive but moderate animal prey drive. My bouv is high animal prey but little object drive. This distinction is important. 



T


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## Sara Waters

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> In your herding culture, biting is unacceptable. That You also run different type of sheep. GSDs were bred for the quality and placement of the grip along with other traits considered useful. Part of the whole grip issue is the dog knowing when/where/how to do it. These ares selected for traits as well. I think you can amp the prey/chase drive to a point that the dog is dysfunctional as a herding dog. It was the feel and quality of the dog's bite work that made me want to test the last GSD I was hot on [still am]. He has instinctive heading, balance, and containment. There was a DDR 6 month old puppy that hadas much eye/finesse as a good BC. The power/fight dog, Doc was clear as a bell and biddable. All of these dogs were bred for and trained in bitework. It had no negative cross over to stock work and their stock work instincts were intact. A young dog I currently have my eye on is purpose bred for bitework only. Doesn't mean his herding package isn't still intact. GSDs can have over the top object drive but moderate animal prey drive. My bouv is high animal prey but little object drive. This distinction is important.
> T


Yes my BC comes from a line of dogs that all nip at exactly the same spot on the hock if required. I find the most difficult dogs to work with in herding are those with an overly amped chase and prey drive. We tend to select for fast strong keen dogs but also ones that have a natural stop and natural width on them. My BC is a bit lacking in that department, being a bit too keen at times and he can take some handling. 

It would be interesting to watch a really good GSD or Mal at work with livestock. Probably a sight I am not likely to see over here given the domination of the traditional australian working dogs which are probably more suited to our livestock systems and environment.


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## Katie Finlay

The point of this whole thread was to find a Malinois suitable for flyball and agility and possibly detection. As I stated earlier, most Malinois are suitable for flyball and agility.

Whether or not most handlers are suited for a Malinois and if Malinois should be bred for those sports is a completely different subject. Some of you are reading way out of context.


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## Carmen van de Kamp

Britney Pelletier said:


> My boyfriend also recounts stories of going to Nicky and Bertrand's place several times years ago and Elgos would always be sunbathing on the front lawn when you pulled into the driveway.. and he was born nearly 25 years ago.. killer Malinois.


yes he was, saw that myself when picking up our Ace (Aha van Joefarm)
& to add to that that the "play-area" of their children back then was with Elgos in the lawn, the little house they could climb on and slide of....

one of the things was that they said he was great at work and outside of the ring they could hand him over to their children without trouble, he would obey them too at that moment....

oh as I train with some of the guys from "way-back" 
here's a video of a nowadays xHH from our club, 
will bite civilian if needed, but is also trainable by a total "nit-wit", woman, kid etc

(hope this works)
video


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## Robin Van Hecke

Katie Finlay said:


> The point of this whole thread was to find a Malinois suitable for flyball and agility and possibly detection. As I stated earlier, most Malinois are suitable for flyball and agility.
> 
> Whether or not most handlers are suited for a Malinois and if Malinois should be bred for those sports is a completely different subject. Some of you are reading way out of context.




Spoken with authority and coming form someone with your level of experience, this thread may as well be closed.


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## Geoff Empey

Konnie Hein said:


> Who is saying that here? Who is delusional? I don't think anybody has said those sports should define the breed (although if somebody feels that way, our opinions likely won't mean squat to them). You're changing what you've said previously in this thread.


People who want a Malinois for just Agility or Flyball that's who.



> Here's what you said, Geoff:
> 
> 
> 
> Geoff Empey said:
> 
> 
> 
> A Malinois for me needs to bite and will do atypical Malinois behaviours and never stop.
> 
> 
> 
> And it's just not true. That's my point. You're saying a Malinois can't possibly be happy in a home where it is not doing YOUR definition of "real" work. Tell that to the breeding females that I purchased as untitled, rarely worked adults. Despite being high drive dogs, they don't do any "real" work by your definition. They hike, they hunt for a ball for fun, and ya, every once in a great while I goof around with them with the leg sleeves so I can practice getting accidentally bit in the thigh. They are not nuisance barkers, crate spinners, kennel pacers, or vicious killers, and I think they are deliriously happy. I don't see any "atypical Malinois behaviors" at all. Yet these females have a pretty important (maybe even "real") job here, and I think they are quite good at it.
Click to expand...

But then you are not the atypical Malinois owner or dog owner for that matter. Your work is the dogs you train dogs for many things detection, sport many things. You are the definition of a great owner even though you have multiple dogs in your kennel. Not everyone can afford the type of time that you do with your dogs let alone one dog or one Malinois. 

So my above quoted statement still holds true if you leave a Malinois or any dog to it's own devices while an owner goes to work and leaves it in the crate for 14-16 hours a day while they commute back and forth to work. Any dog will tear crap apart but a Malinois will be much worse and their long term mental health will suffer to a point where they may or may not recover. Even if it is unintentional from the owner. 

Not everyone has the time like you and me to care to our dogs well being, like we do. 



> Here's the thing, everybody's definition of "real" is different. My definition of "real work" doesn't include protection sports actually, but I do use protection sports as a guide (one of many) for evaluating the performance of my breeding program for sure. That doesn't mean I'm going to cut off people who want a dog from me to do agility. When I'm evaluating prospective owners for my litters, I am hoping to find the best possible home for each pup - where both the owner and the dog will be satisfied. If you look at my past litters page on my website, you'll see that most of those homes are indeed sport protection homes, but sometimes that's not the best fit. And often the reason for that isn't because the dog can't do protection sports.


Yes I agree totally, it is a people thing it boils down to a person's lifestyle, dog experience and my previously mentioned time and desire factor. To me it comes down to the pup having a great life, really that is all any breeder wants for any of their pups. Me included! 



> And, of course, everybody's definition of what a good Malinois is differs wildly. And I'm OK with that. It's not something I have any control over anyhow. Diversity is a good thing.


Yes you are right nobody has any control of what anyone else does with their animals. We can spend our life wishing away where we want pups to be when they grow up, but that still is wishing away our life. 



> You have totally missed my point. Please re-read my statements


I do think you have taking what I have said literally as well. 



Geoff Empey said:


> Personally I would never breed a Malinois *specifically* for a sport like flyball or would even pretend that one of my dogs would even be good at that, I know they would be good as Legend is currently one of the or the fastest Flyball Malinois in the world. *But they are so much more than that. Any puppy buyer needs to understand what they are getting. Just getting a Malinois just because you want to do Flyball or agility is not what the breed should be pointed towards IMO.* A Malinois for me needs to bite and will do atypical Malinois behaviours and never stop. *They are not a dog to be just a agility dog,* (IMHO of course) so I wouldn't even feel comfortable selling a pup to a home like that unless it was someone with *a lot of experience*. Not to be rude or anything but it is the truth.
> 
> To me once people start just wanting Malinois *just for these tasks* the original purpose of the breed as a herding, guarding, detection dog *starts* to become lost. (As I said this breed is much much more than that)
> 
> Right now for me the Malinois is at a cross roads as it has become so popular because of the Bin Laden raid and their use a PSD and MWD so it has become the *performance breed of the month*. So to me that is a dangerous thing for the *overall long term integrity* of the breed.


----------



## Katie Finlay

Robin Van Hecke said:


> Spoken with authority and coming form someone with your level of experience, this thread may as well be closed.


Why is that? Did I say everyone should have a Malinois? Did I say it's the breed you should get if you only want to do flyball and agility? Did I say that they'd do we'll in an inexperienced home. Did I say it would be easy? And wait, didn't I get support from others with roughly the same level of experience as you?

What exactly is your beef with me. Do tell. I seem to be on your hate list. Do us both a favor and ignore me.


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Robin Van Hecke said:


> Spoken with authority and coming form someone with your level of experience, this thread may as well be closed.


Well I thought the same when you spoke out, coming from a woman who saw a Malinois in a bar 50 years ago. Since you lived in Belguim tell everyone here of your success in the Belgian ring? Wait mondioring, wait French ring, breeding? Perhaps you can lead us to your SCH accomplishments and show us what you bred in the past since you are critical to what type of dogs "should be bred". Perhaps the joy of owning a Malinois and seeing one in a bar 50 years ago puts you way ahead of the curve.


----------



## Katie Finlay

And I fully admit I'm not experienced. I don't think I've ever claimed any experience on this board or anywhere. I've openly stated before that I'm not experienced.

I just didn't think I needed 50 years of experience to say Malinois could do well at agility and flyball.


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Katie Finlay said:


> And I fully admit I'm not experienced. I don't think I've ever claimed any experience on this board or anywhere. I've openly stated before that I'm not experienced.
> 
> I just didn't think I needed 50 years of experience to say Malinois could do well at agility and flyball.


Extremely hard to compete with someone who owned some mals in the past, titled a few, and witnessed the breed in its country 50 years ago. How dare you claim Malinois can do fly ball while Robin is having trouble keeping hers from attacking scary Border Collies LOL. Oh let's not forget about the innocent bystanders as well.
Put little control on the proper genetically inclined dog, don't socialize, kennel it, and you too can have the ultimate non social fear biter!


----------



## Sara Waters

Geoff Empey said:


> People who want a Malinois for just Agility or Flyball that's who.
> 
> So my above quoted statement still holds true if you leave a Malinois or any dog to it's own devices while an owner goes to work and leaves it in the crate for 14-16 hours a day while they commute back and forth to work. Any dog will tear crap apart but a Malinois will be much worse and their long term mental health will suffer to a point where they may or may not recover. Even if it is unintentional from the owner.
> 
> Not everyone has the time like you and me to care to our dogs well being, like we do.
> 
> .


Geoff are you saying that agility and flyball people are more likely to go to work and leave their dogs in crates than someone doing protection sport?

Most of the good agility handlers I know spend enormous amounts of time with their dogs exercising and training them and quite a few own kennels or live on properties. Most train multiple evenings and trial most weekends as well as swimming, doing beachwork, hiking with their dogs. It is a way of life for the ones with high drive dogs who live and breath agility. A few I know worked mainly with GSDS in the old days when the courses were big and high. They made the transistion to Border collies when the ANKC courses became much tighter. I think lumping agility people all in one basket really is a gross generalisation. 

I had a station bred working cattle dog when I left a station for suburbia, long before I knew dog sport existed. She and I were both super high octane outdoor exercise junkies LOL a perfect match. I dont think she missed the cattle at all or the possibility of dog sport of whatever variety. 

Any good owner does not unintentionally leave their dogs unexercised in crate day after day.

I guess in the end a good breeder will try and find the best fit for their dogs whatever they percieve it to be.


----------



## Geoff Empey

Sara Waters said:


> Geoff are you saying that agility and flyball people are more likely to go to work and leave their dogs in crates than someone doing protection sport?


No ..



Sara Waters said:


> Most of the good agility handlers I know spend enormous amounts of time with their dogs exercising and training them and quite a few own kennels or live on properties. Most train multiple evenings and trial most weekends as well as swimming, doing beachwork, hiking with their dogs. It is a way of life for the ones with high drive dogs who live and breath agility. A few I know worked mainly with GSDS in the old days when the courses were big and high. They made the transistion to Border collies when the ANKC courses became much tighter. I think lumping agility people all in one basket really is a gross generalisation.


I am saying that 'any' bad owner is just that, I didn't mean to generalize. Again the owner needs to know what they are getting. I am sure that every breeder has had dogs returned to them for many reasons and it usually isn't the dog itself it is the environment it was placed in something changes. People lose jobs, people change jobs, divorce, a new baby, the owner gets sick, the dog nips one of the kids, a kid is allergic. There is many things that can happen that put a pup in a shitty situation. Just putting a Malinois in a shitty situation you have a dog that is sharp and reactive on top of that in a shitty situation. That my friend is a liability. =;



Sara Waters said:


> Any good owner does not unintentionally leave their dogs unexercised in crate day after day.


No not intentionally but it does happen and I've personally seen it happen. Dogs walking on their nails because the pasterns are so weak from being crated 23.5 hours a day, dogs that self mutilate out of boredom, dogs that are messed in their heads forever .. all unintentional of course. 



Sara Waters said:


> I guess in the end a good breeder will try and find the best fit for their dogs whatever they percieve it to be.


You don't have guess that should be a given being a 'good breeder'!  I think that is the hardest and most stressful thing about being a breeder is placing pups. Because you are trusting someone for the life of the dog to take care of the pup, like you would your own animal. I know it was something that I put the most thought in as you really do want the best match for the owner and pup.


----------



## Britney Pelletier

Carmen van de Kamp said:


> yes he was, saw that myself when picking up our Ace (Aha van Joefarm)
> & to add to that that the "play-area" of their children back then was with Elgos in the lawn, the little house they could climb on and slide of....
> 
> one of the things was that they said he was great at work and outside of the ring they could hand him over to their children without trouble, he would obey them too at that moment....
> 
> oh as I train with some of the guys from "way-back"
> here's a video of a nowadays xHH from our club,
> will bite civilian if needed, but is also trainable by a total "nit-wit", woman, kid etc
> 
> (hope this works)
> video



Thank you so much for posting that, Carmen!! It is so neat to hear that from more than one person about such a legendary dog


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

One of the issues that in the average litter how many are suited for bite sport homes? I agree with Sara that sport homes are sport homes regardless of venue. The agility or flyball people aren't going to be less likely to properly socialize and exercise the dog as anyone else. That's a selection/education issue for the breeder. But even given that, I still don't agree with "breeding for" agility and flyball for herding/guard breeds. That is a slippery slope. But if you had a pup in a litter that wasn't bite sport suitable and some agility/flyball person was interested in the pup and had the where with all to raise/train it and properly exercise/channel the drives, would you turn it down?

T


----------



## Katie Finlay

timothy stacy said:


> extremely hard to compete with someone who owned some mals in the past, titled a few, and witnessed the breed in its country 50 years ago. How dare you claim malinois can do fly ball while robin is having trouble keeping hers from attacking scary border collies lol. Oh let's not forget about the innocent bystanders as well.
> Put little control on the proper genetically inclined dog, don't socialize, kennel it, and you too can have the ultimate non social fear biter!


teehee


----------



## Geoff Empey

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> One of the issues that in the average litter how many are suited for bite sport homes?


I think you'd be surprised, in the end it all boils down to the environment the pup was placed in. Out of the 8 pups in the one litter I had 'all' of them tugged and bit at 5-6 weeks of age. Are we looking at world champions and can we pick world champions at that point .. I wish! But they all bit at that age I suspect the world was their oyster at that point. All depended on what path the owners wanted to walk. 



Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I agree with Sara that sport homes are sport homes regardless of venue. The agility or flyball people aren't going to be less likely to properly socialize and exercise the dog as anyone else. That's a selection/education issue for the breeder.


Yes you are right as well as Sara. I am sorry for giving that impression. 



Terrasita Cuffie said:


> But even given that, I still don't agree with "breeding for" agility and flyball for herding/guard breeds. That is a slippery slope.


It is a slippery slope and there are breeders that seem to be filling that niche, even if they didn't mean it to go that way. 



Terrasita Cuffie said:


> But if you had a pup in a litter that wasn't bite sport suitable and some agility/flyball person was interested in the pup and had the where with all to raise/train it and properly exercise/channel the drives, would you turn it down?


I wouldn't but I would think really really hard about it, as every pup gone is one gone that could be placed in a SAR home or in a department down the line. For me Bite sport is what I do for fun but my goal was to have pups that would be placed in working homes only not just bite sport that wasn't my intention. 

WDF member Tammy St Louis wanted a pup from my litter and her needs and wants for a Malinois didn't fit in what I envisioned what Malinois's life should be. She is a Dog Aggression expert and had 2 rehabbed DA pitbulls at the time with a huge pack of different breed dogs. I just didn't think it was a cool situation for a Malinois puppy to be in, frankly is scared the crap out of me. After countless emails. phone calls and much back and forth between us the last deposit was in and Tammy missed out. About 2 weeks later one of the buyers backed out, the phone rings within seconds of me posting that someone backed out and it was Tammy. She took that guy's spot right away. 

I had a male that seemed a lot more mellow that the rest of the pups he was a real sweet boy. He bit and tugged, wasn't scared of loud noises just a lot of the other pups over shadowed him in the craziness that a litter of Malinois is. That's the one Tammy wanted and ended up getting. The whole family got all emotional when he was taken home by Tamm. Then I was so worried sick about his situation feeling responsible for anything that could happen to him. 

2 years later all that worry and fretting was for naught, he has turned out amazing! This pup has done so many things agility, sledding, dock diving, competitive OB and now Tamm has even gotten the Bite sport bug and gotten a French Ring Brevet on him last month. Not counting for all the hikes and swimming they do either! She is an amazing owner! All puppy buyers deserve an owner like her, seriously she is that awesome. This is one lucky pup! I am very thankful that Tammy has him. She is a great ambassador for the breed of what it can be. It all started out with someone who wanted a Malinois for agility and OB, who woulda thunk it? Sure lended my theories to be broken! LOL!


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Nothing beats a good home that exercises and takes care of their dog! Not every athlete has to play football or fight in MMA to be considered a worthy athlete. I would never breed a dog cause it was good at flyball alone. Versatility is hard enough, not like a hunting dog where the main focus of success is finding and pointing a bird....,Malinois for work need to be trainable above all, good grips, fearless, ball drive, some aggression, speed, athletic, retrieve drives, hunt drive, ability to track, etc etc... So no flyball doesn't fulfill all those requirements but if I saw a flyball dog that could do it all, and not be titled in protection sport I'd use it. Bite work, hunt drive, and a few others requirements can be tested, a good dog will have these regardless. It's the dog not the sport and I do not believe Malinois "need to bite or participate in bite work for them to fulfill their inner desires", energy can be burned off in many ways!


----------



## Sara Waters

Geoff Empey said:


> No ..
> 
> No not intentionally but it does happen and I've personally seen it happen. Dogs walking on their nails because the pasterns are so weak from being crated 23.5 hours a day, dogs that self mutilate out of boredom, dogs that are messed in their heads forever .. all unintentional of course.
> 
> You don't have guess that should be a given being a 'good breeder'!  I think that is the hardest and most stressful thing about being a breeder is placing pups. Because you are trusting someone for the life of the dog to take care of the pup, like you would your own animal. I know it was something that I put the most thought in as you really do want the best match for the owner and pup.


Well I cant imagine how you could do that and not realise what you were doing. My dogs always come first. They got their daily exercise even if on occassions it meant getting up at 4 am or running with them at midnight. It comes with the territory of owning high drive working dogs. Why would you bother getting a dog like that if that was going to be its life? 

Yes one of the reasons that I would find it difficult to be a breeder. Finding the perfect home for every pup. The breeder I get my dog from will always take her dogs back if hard times fall unexpectedly for their owners, but she also tries her best to find the best homes.


----------



## Kadi Thingvall

Carmen van de Kamp said:


> yes he was, saw that myself when picking up our Ace (Aha van Joefarm)
> & to add to that that the "play-area" of their children back then was with Elgos in the lawn, the little house they could climb on and slide of....
> 
> one of the things was that they said he was great at work and outside of the ring they could hand him over to their children without trouble, he would obey them too at that moment....


Interesting, his son Raptor (Rytmo 2P) was the same way. Somewhere I have a video of Raptor hanging out with children loving on him, then getting up and being sent into a horse trailer for a bite (lots of screaming, banging against the metal walls, etc) then back out of the trailer and back over to the group of children for pets again.


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Interesting, his son Raptor (Rytmo 2P) was the same way. Somewhere I have a video of Raptor hanging out with children loving on him, then getting up and being sent into a horse trailer for a bite (lots of screaming, banging against the metal walls, etc) then back out of the trailer and back over to the group of children for pets again.


Reminds me of that GSD thread, what happened to the GSD I grew up with!
Showing teeth and unwarranted aggression have some believing that is tough!


----------



## Britney Pelletier

Timothy Stacy said:


> Reminds me of that GSD thread, what happened to the GSD I grew up with!
> Showing teeth and unwarranted aggression have some believing that is tough!



Exactly!


----------



## Martine Loots

Timothy Stacy said:


> That's funny, Martine Loots says the opposite, even how A'Tim was a favorite of the neighborhood kids. He was born 10 to 15 years ago so I guess his genitic killer aggression was watered down a couple generations before him.


I beg your pardon??? Could you please quote where I said this?

Our closest neighbours are a few miles away so no kids here, but I'm sure he'd have loved their kids...for dinner

I’m not going to participate in this discussion because it clearly states the immense difference in the standards as to what a “Malinois” should be like.
Only thing I can say is that I fully agree with Robin and that flyball etc… isn’t suitable for a strong character dog.
I don’t mind people doing it if they have a different type of dog then the one we’re used to, but I’m glad at least over here we still have the lines that show other qualities.

Really, breeding with the goal of producing flyball type dogs makes me wanna p*** :-&


----------



## Konnie Hein

I think the idea of breeding a flyball-only or agility-only strain of Malinois makes everybody who has participated in this conversation here want to puke. Unless I missed a post, NOBODY here is saying it's a good idea AT ALL. And, I don't even think anybody here is saying an agility or flyball home is first on the list of homes for pups with "strong character" as I assume you are defining the term. However, not all pups in a litter will fit that description, even if they are capable of participating (and I'll go so far as to say excelling) in bite sports. Unless you are killing all the pups who aren't over-the-top handfuls, you will have 8 week old pups who would do well in those venues with competent owners (emphasis on competent owners). 

I'm pretty sure that all the popular breeders here in the US have sold pups to sport performance (flyball, agility, dock diving, etc) or other such non-bite sport (like SAR) homes. Can't think of an exception to that actually.

Based on the responses, I think people are so horrified at the thought of a "flyball strain" of Malinois, that their reading comprehension is suffering.


----------



## Timothy Stacy

My grievous error Martine if you never said that. I must have confused with one of his many offspring. Also a daughter I knew was extremely social. My fault, must have confused him with the many forums about "his offspring".

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f23/atim-fils-father-son-teamwork-1-decoy-15933/index2.html

Maybe I mistook his first owner who "created the dog to feel strong" and then Jaos progress which made him appear social". 


http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f23/berry-ii-18597/index4.html


----------



## Konnie Hein

Martine Loots said:


> I don’t mind people doing it if they have a different type of dog then the one we’re used to, but I’m glad at least over here we still have the lines that show other qualities


What are these "other qualities" that would make a dog unsuitable for flyball or agility (assuming a competent handler)? Are we talking about aggression? Too much drive?


----------



## Christopher Smith

Martine Loots said:


> I'm not going to participate in this discussion because it clearly states the immense difference in the standards as to what a “Malinois” should be like.


Difference in what standards?

Are you saying that the Malinois with proper temperament is incapable of running past another dog picking up a ball them running back to the handler?

Let's get real, a dog with such a piss poor temperament that it is incapable of doing something like flyball would be a useless POS off of a sport field.


----------



## Doug Zaga

This is like a Where's Waldo game....Where's Vitto!? :mrgreen:


----------



## Timothy Stacy

You are right, it was not you who said it! It was your husband who said it about 7 years ago on a forum called "Belgiansworld". It was a heated debate about A'Tim and amongst the arguing the unsocial aspect came out, in which Joao said he was a favorite among kids. Perhaps he meant watching from a far! Thanks to a friend with a better memory than I to point that out! That was Joao last forum post that I had seen! He was extremely agitated and I can't say I blame him. He may have said it to prove a point but it left the perception with me!


Martine Loots said:


> I beg your pardon??? Could you please quote where I said this?
> 
> Our closest neighbours are a few miles away so no kids here, but I'm sure he'd have loved their kids...for dinner
> 
> I’m not going to participate in this discussion because it clearly states the immense difference in the standards as to what a “Malinois” should be like.
> Only thing I can say is that I fully agree with Robin and that flyball etc… isn’t suitable for a strong character dog.
> I don’t mind people doing it if they have a different type of dog then the one we’re used to, but I’m glad at least over here we still have the lines that show other qualities.
> 
> Really, breeding with the goal of producing flyball type dogs makes me wanna p*** :-&


----------



## Ryan Venables

Dana McMahan said:


> The fastest Flyball team on the world record in Canada (Rocket Relay) has a Malinois that ran on that team. INXS locally is almost entirely malinois. You can check them out here; http://www.inxsflyball.net/contact.html


That Mal is from Geoff Empey and if it weighs 40lbs, I'd be surprised. But fast as hell and drive for days. It's being cross-trained in FR now.


----------



## Ryan Venables

Tracy Davis-Sullivan said:


> Pam on Burnin' Rubber has 2 nice Mals but I believe she has also spoken up that Legend (Fastest Mal with a 3.5something) was nice an easy train either. I don't know where they came from.
> 
> .


Geoff Empey bred this dog.

J'Sasha van Arex x MiJi's Juice (Konnie Hein's dog out of Laforge Malinois) - I believe)


----------



## Ryan Venables

Geoff Empey said:


> There is something about N/A breeders in the AKC and CKC that seem to take the work out of working breeds. When they start breeding for ear set, colour and sell pups because they are 'cute' or they maybe good at agility and flyball, it is the beginning of the end. That is what is happening to the Malinois IMO now. It pisses me off.


Should I interject w/ this?  Although my little showliner has done quite well for herself... but she's a very very rare example

BTW, sorry abotu the 2 above posts... I hadn't gotten to Geoff's comment yet.


----------



## Martine Loots

Timothy Stacy said:


> You are right, it was not you who said it! It was your husband who said it about 7 years ago on a forum called "Belgiansworld". It was a heated debate about A'Tim and amongst the arguing the unsocial aspect came out, in which Joao said he was a favorite among kids. Perhaps he meant watching from a far! Thanks to a friend with a better memory than I to point that out! That was Joao last forum post that I had seen! He was extremely agitated and I can't say I blame him. He may have said it to prove a point but it left the perception with me!


Joâo never posted one single post on a forum. He doesn't even read on forums. Finds it a big waste of time and I have to agree with him. I used to read more but lately I hardly do it because it irritates me.

And yes Tim, I agree with your signature...


----------



## Martine Loots

Christopher Smith said:


> Difference in what standards?
> 
> Are you saying that the Malinois with proper temperament is incapable of running past another dog picking up a ball them running back to the handler?
> 
> Let's get real, a dog with such a piss poor temperament that it is incapable of doing something like flyball would be a useless POS off of a sport field.



To each his own. I wouldn't even consider a flyball dog for sports.


----------



## Martine Loots

Konnie Hein said:


> I think the idea of breeding a flyball-only or agility-only strain of Malinois makes everybody who has participated in this conversation here want to puke. Unless I missed a post, NOBODY here is saying it's a good idea AT ALL. And, I don't even think anybody here is saying an agility or flyball home is first on the list of homes for pups with "strong character" as I assume you are defining the term. However, not all pups in a litter will fit that description, even if they are capable of participating (and I'll go so far as to say excelling) in bite sports. Unless you are killing all the pups who aren't over-the-top handfuls, you will have 8 week old pups who would do well in those venues with competent owners (emphasis on competent owners).
> 
> I'm pretty sure that all the popular breeders here in the US have sold pups to sport performance (flyball, agility, dock diving, etc) or other such non-bite sport (like SAR) homes. Can't think of an exception to that actually.
> 
> Based on the responses, I think people are so horrified at the thought of a "flyball strain" of Malinois, that their reading comprehension is suffering.


I agree with you that it is a good solution to place the weaker dogs in family homes. They can be the perfect friend for people who like the non-bite sports.
But if you want to keep the quality of the breed, these dogs shouldn't be used for breeding.


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Martine Loots said:


> Joâo never posted one single post on a forum. He doesn't even read on forums. Finds it a big waste of time and I have to agree with him. I used to read more but lately I hardly do it because it irritates me.
> 
> And yes Tim, I agree with your signature...


Ok, made the whole thing up Martine. Must have been a dream. Joao did state that he never came on forums but after reading the post he had too. Oh well, different A'Tim and different Joao LOL.When suitable for argument he's social, when arguements are geared toward "man eaters" he's that too. I think I get it. But only relations with his kin LOL


----------



## Martine Loots

Konnie Hein said:


> What are these "other qualities" that would make a dog unsuitable for flyball or agility (assuming a competent handler)? Are we talking about aggression? Too much drive?


I'm talking about the real strong character dogs. The ones you'd take with you in a dark alley, and trust your life to.
No way you could go agitating this type of dog by letting him rum through a bunch of other dogs and cheering people unpunished. These dogs don't know what "playing" is. They like their handler and their family, but if you try to play with them, it will work for a few seconds but then it gets dangerous.

However this doesn't mean that these dogs can't behave in a crowd or that they are agressive monsters.


----------



## Martine Loots

Timothy Stacy said:


> Ok, made the whole thing up Martine. Must have been a dream. Joao did state that he never came on forums but after reading the post he had too. Oh well, different A'Tim and different Joao LOL.When suitable for argument he's social, when arguements are geared toward "man eaters" he's that too. I think I get it. But only social toward his own son LOL


Must have been a dream yes, because my husband doesn't even write english.

P.S. Why the attitude Tim? Is it because of what I said in a pm about a dog you asked info about?


----------



## Kadi Thingvall

Martine Loots said:


> I agree with you that it is a good solution to place the weaker dogs in family homes. They can be the perfect friend for people who like the non-bite sports.
> But if you want to keep the quality of the breed, these dogs shouldn't be used for breeding.


You aren't the only one who has said it, but just the most recent so you get to be quoted.

I've looked all over this thread and I can't find a single person who is saying Malinois SHOULD be bred for flyball, or that flyball should be a test for breeding suitability. 

I have seen many people say that there are Malinois who were bred for work, who are also quite capable of doing things like flyball, agility, etc.


----------



## Konnie Hein

Martine Loots said:


> But if you want to keep the quality of the breed, these dogs shouldn't be used for breeding.


We are all in agreement then.


----------



## Nicole Stark

Doug Zaga said:


> This is like a Where's Waldo game....Where's Vitto!? :mrgreen:


ha ha, hey be nice to Vitto. His question raised some rather thought provoking dialogue. :twisted:


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Martine Loots said:


> Must have been a dream yes, because my husband doesn't even write english.
> 
> P.S. Why the attitude Tim? Is it because of what I said in a pm about a dog you asked info about?


Did you write that for him?
You must know what I'm talking about cause it was probably the most I've seen written about A'Tim. His false pedigree and everything else was also discussed. 
No, I was surprised at your attitude and how you are denying that thread exsisted!


----------



## Martine Loots

Kadi Thingvall said:


> You aren't the only one who has said it, but just the most recent so you get to be quoted.
> 
> I have seen many people say* that there are* Malinois who were bred for work, who are also quite capable of doing things like flyball, agility, etc.


With this I fully agree. And they very well can be nice dogs too. 

What I didn't agree with is that many people said that "any mal with good drives" was suitable and got pissed when Robin didn't agree.


----------



## Robin Van Hecke

Kadi Thingvall said:


> You aren't the only one who has said it, but just the most recent so you get to be quoted.
> 
> I've looked all over this thread and I can't find a single person who is saying Malinois SHOULD be bred for flyball, or that flyball should be a test for breeding suitability.
> 
> I have seen many people say that there are Malinois who were bred for work, who are also quite capable of doing things like flyball, agility, etc.



But you have stated that they are being used for flyball. Why do you think that is happening? I think it's in part because the sentiment in this thread that "most Malinois" and "Malinois kick ass in flyball", sure has a lot of backers.
Where do you think this will lead?


----------



## Robin Van Hecke

That should read "bred for flyball" sorry.


----------



## Martine Loots

Timothy Stacy said:


> Did you write that for him?
> You must know what I'm talking about cause it was probably the most I've seen written about A'Tim. His false pedigree and everything else was also discussed.
> No, I was surprised at your attitude and how you are denying that thread exsisted!


I'm the only one writing on forums. Joâo never does.
I remember a thread on Belgiansworld where A'Tim was discussed. I can quote dozens of forums where this was the fact too.
But me saying he was social? Why would I have said that when it took me weeks before I could even touch him, let go handling him and I'm used to more then flyball dogs.
Once he accepted me, we became very good friends and I had a very strong bond with him. But still I had to watch out how to handle him until the day he died. He was very friendly with me but I never could play with him. The fact that he got along with Fils, is because Fils is a very easy going dog who leaves other dogs alone.


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Fair enough, those forums are gone anyhow so it's pointless to argue if it was said in a way which gave me the wrong perception. I apologize


----------



## Kadi Thingvall

Robin Van Hecke said:


> But you have stated that they are being used for flyball. Why do you think that is happening? I think it's in part because the sentiment in this thread that "most Malinois" and "Malinois kick ass in flyball", sure has a lot of backers. Where do you think this will lead?





Robin Van Hecke said:


> That should read "bred for flyball" sorry.


I said it's happening (breeding for flyball). I did not say I approved of it, and I did not see anyone else in this thread saying they approved of it either. So I don't know why some participants in this thread ore making a jump from someone saying "Malinois are good at flyball" to "people think they should be bred for flyball"

Lots of dogs are good at flyball. Pretty much any high drive dog with decent structure and the ability to focus on the job at hand (go get the ball and come back) without going after the other dogs or people around it can be good at flyball. Doesn't mean they (any breed) should be specifically bred for that, considering you can find dogs that fit that description almost anywhere you look. 

As for where it will lead? Almost nowhere. I won't say "nowhere" because there is a small segment of people doing it. But I don't see a bunch of working breeders jumping ship to go breed flyball dogs. I don't see it having an impact on the working dogs. Not any more than the conformation breedings have. And hey, if non-working breeders try to breed dogs more suited to flyball, OK, that means they are probably increasing the drive in what the produce, and possibly improving the structure (don't underestimate the toll hitting that box at top speed 100's of times can take). But I'm not going to worry about what those breeders do, it doesn't effect me, I'll focus more on what the working breeders are doing, they are the ones that have the potential to effect me and the dogs I'm interested in.


----------



## Christopher Smith

Robin Van Hecke said:


> But you have stated that they are being used for flyball. Why do you think that is happening? I think it's in part because the sentiment in this thread that "most Malinois" and "Malinois kick ass in flyball", sure has a lot of backers.
> Where do you think this will lead?


 Oh now I understand! It's going to lead to you and every other breeder and lover of Malinois into breeding and buying flyball dogs! You and all the people that love working dogs will give up everything you believe in, sell out, and get rich supplying dogs to the multi million dollar flyball Malinois market and failing in working dog venues.


----------



## John Wolf

I think it is all about perception. Nobody on here wants to breed strictly flyball dogs but you can bet there are others who do. When you go out and say that malinois are great flyball dogs it gives the impression to less informed people that a malinois is a good option, when in reality a malinois in a "flyball" home is dangerous for all involved. Some of the craziness and over the top behaviors are what make a malinois a malinois. I am of the thought that should not be "bred-out". I know there are those that disagree. I am also of the thought that the malinois should not be promoted as some great breed to anybody outside the "working" dog community. Are some malinois great family dogs? Absolutely. Those dogs, in my opinion, are not the backbone of the breed or what made the breed the best working dogs on the planet. I tell people interested in getting a malinois as a pet that it is like putting a badger with your kids.


----------



## Christopher Smith

Timothy Stacy said:


> Fair enough, those forums are gone anyhow so it's pointless to argue if it was said in a way which gave me the wrong perception. I apologize


If you can recall the web address you might be able to find the info on wayback.com


----------



## Christopher Smith

John Wolf said:


> I tell people interested in getting a malinois as a pet that it is like putting a badger with your kids.


Tell them what you want but that won't make it true.


----------



## Konnie Hein

Christopher Smith said:


> If you can recall the web address you might be able to find the info on wayback.com


I tried to look it up. Although I found the forum there, those particular pages don't seem to be archived.


----------



## John Wolf

Christopher Smith said:


> Tell them what you want but that won't make it true.


You haven't been around some if the same mals I have then. I'm pretty new to Dogsport so maybe I have been around just bad examples. To say a mal is a good family dog, in my opinion and experience, is incorrect and dangerous.


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Try a query under his pedigreed name


----------



## Robin Van Hecke

Christopher Smith said:


> Tell them what you want but that won't make it true.




Same applies to your statement in another thread: "these most extreme dogs are produced from less extreme parents in the vast majority of cases. Dogs routinely produce dogs better than themselves".
Maybe you need tomstart a thread named: Reinventing the Malinois


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Robin Van Hecke said:


> Same applies to your statement in another thread: "these most extreme dogs are produced from less extreme parents in the vast majority of cases. Dogs routinely produce dogs better than themselves".
> Maybe you need tomstart a thread named: Reinventing the Malinois


I think what Chris is saying is valid. I can breed two social high drive dogs and get one pup who is an "extreme....man eater", a by product of the gentics but not the norm. Its only better than the parents if you think that having than trait is better! I can recall more than one litter where breeders put together a male and female together who display these anti social overtly aggressive traits and end up with 8 out of the 10 pups being incredibly nervous! In most cases anti social lacks confidence to me. 
Martine said something like , A'Tims first owner was afraid of him which tells me his upbringing made him stronger and potentially made the dog.... I have seen 4 A'tim offspring and not one had the aggression that is being portrayed. With that said, I liked the dogs and A'tim! 
In other cases some dogs are genetically nervy and inclined toward crazy aggression, the ones that never come out of the psychotic state seem to be the ones people seem to think are the toughest when they are actually the weakest!


----------



## Christopher Smith

Robin Van Hecke said:


> Same applies to your statement in another thread: "these most extreme dogs are produced from less extreme parents in the vast majority of cases. Dogs routinely produce dogs better than themselves".
> Maybe you need tomstart a thread named: Reinventing the Malinois


What I said is a proven fact and I will let you have the honor of proving that I'm right. Think of the 10 most extreme dogs that you can. How many of those dogs on your list are better than their father?


----------



## Robin Van Hecke

Christopher Smith said:


> What I said is a proven fact and I will let you have the honor of proving that I'm right. Think of the 10 most extreme dogs that you can. How many of those dogs on your list are better than their father?




I don't have to prove sweet nothing.....you prove it. 
You made the statement, not me.


----------



## Christopher Smith

Konnie Hein said:


> I tried to look it up. Although I found the forum there, those particular pages don't seem to be archived.


That's too bad. I do recall things the same as Tim does, but I have do a bit of partying in my life and don't want to rely on my memory alone. But one thing I remember for sure is that Joao *did* post about A'Tim on that forum.


----------



## Christopher Smith

Robin Van Hecke said:


> I don't have to prove sweet nothing.....you prove it.
> You made the statement, not me.


Your dog does not look nor act like a wolf. That is proof.


----------



## Robin Van Hecke

Christopher Smith said:


> Your dog does not look nor act like a wolf. That is proof.




Yeah ok then.....

I'm leaving this thread (promise) thinking of that French saying:

Vive la difference!!


----------



## Britney Pelletier

Christopher Smith said:


> Let's get real, a dog with such a piss poor temperament that it is incapable of doing something like flyball would be a useless POS off of a sport field.


For real.


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Christopher Smith said:


> That's too bad. I do recall things the same as Tim does, but I have do a bit of partying in my life and don't want to rely on my memory alone. But one thing I remember for sure is that Joao *did* post about A'Tim on that forum.


No wonder us Americans have trouble breeding European dogs...we can never get the whole truth. Whatever flavor sells that month is the flavor we have!


----------



## Christopher Smith

Timothy Stacy said:


> No wonder us Americans have trouble breeding European dogs...we can never get the whole truth. Whatever flavor sells that month is the flavor we have!


It's like the ice cream parlor. Got keep rotating in new flavors to keep the buying public interested. If you don't they might discover that the best ice cream is homemade. With homemade you know exactly what's in it and how it was made.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

I can get you a Mal to do that. How much you looking to spend and how old do you want it to be ??


----------



## Katie Finlay

I think this thread has entered a whole new level!


----------



## Nicole Stark

Jeff Oehlsen said:


>


Holy shit. Now that's awesome. Hope you get to hang around a bit.


----------



## Martine Loots

Christopher Smith said:


> That's too bad. I do recall things the same as Tim does, but I have do a bit of partying in my life and don't want to rely on my memory alone. But one thing I remember for sure is that Joao *did* post about A'Tim on that forum.


 
*Workingmalinois (aka Martine)* posted there.
I never said I didn't. I was a regular member there.
The the owner of that forum designed our logo btw and still is a good friend.


----------



## Martine Loots

Timothy Stacy said:


> Martine said something like , A'Tims first owner was afraid of him which tells me his upbringing made him stronger and potentially made the dog....


Upbringing never "makes" a dog. Quality is there genetically, no matter the upbringing. 
It may make the dog "look" strong, but but you can never add what he's lacking genetically.
Upbringing can mask a lot of things but they will come out eventually.



Timothy Stacy said:


> I have seen 4 A'tim offspring and not one had the aggression that is being portrayed. With that said, I liked the dogs and A'tim!
> In other cases some dogs are genetically nervy and inclined toward crazy aggression, the ones that never come out of the psychotic state seem to be the ones people seem to think are the toughest when they are actually the weakest!


There is nothing wrong with a dog being social. Strong character and courage have nothing to do with aggression.
I know good dogs that are social and some that aren’t.

But to me the definition of social isn’t “being everybody’s buddy and let everybody mess and play with you”. 
To me, my dog Fils is very social. He is totally indifferent to other people and wouldn’t even think of harming someone. Gets along with dogs too. There would be no issues if some kid would touch him unexpectedly. But he certainly wouldn’t allow someone else to take him for a walk or play with him, so probably he’d be marked “not social” by a lot of people in the US?

Joâo’s old dog “One” loved kids. They could pet him without any danger. But playing wouldn’t have been possible and towards adults he wasn’t easy.

Tim and Fun aren’t social but don’t show aggression either as long as you leave them alone.

All of them are/were balanced and clear in the head but still they were completely different dogs.


----------



## Martine Loots

Christopher Smith said:


> It's like the ice cream parlor. Got keep rotating in new flavors to keep the buying public interested. If you don't they might discover that the best ice cream is homemade. With homemade you know exactly what's in it and how it was made.


So the dog in your signature must be “home made” then…or is it “home made with a foreign ice cream flavor”? :mrgreen:


----------



## Tiago Fontes

Christopher Smith said:


> What I said is a proven fact and I will let you have the honor of proving that I'm right. Think of the 10 most extreme dogs that you can. How many of those dogs on your list are better than their father?


Ok... How were the mothers? Were they exhibiting similar traits as the sires? How were they bred? 

Fact is, if you breed properly and use on both ends of the equation, inidividuals that express what you're looking to obtain, odds are that the offspring will exhibit similar traits. 

However, it is nearly impossible that the parents fully throw themselves in a consistent basis, hence why, it should be used as breeding stock those individuals which demonstrate intensely the traits you're eager to obtain.


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I can get you a Mal to do that. How much you looking to spend and how old do you want it to be ??


I was dreaming Martine, I also dreamed Jeff was back.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Katie Finlay said:


> I think this thread has entered a whole new level!


Katie,

Yeah but has it risen to new heights or sunk to new depths? 
Welcome back Jeff 
WTF are you still doing in San Antonio? ;-)


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Dying a slow horrible death.


----------



## Tracy Davis-Sullivan

Konnie Hein said:


> I think the idea of breeding a flyball-only or agility-only strain of Malinois makes everybody who has participated in this conversation here want to puke. Unless I missed a post, NOBODY here is saying it's a good idea AT ALL. And, I don't even think anybody here is saying an agility or flyball home is first on the list of homes for pups with "strong character" as I assume you are defining the term. However, not all pups in a litter will fit that description, even if they are capable of participating (and I'll go so far as to say excelling) in bite sports. Unless you are killing all the pups who aren't over-the-top handfuls, you will have 8 week old pups who would do well in those venues with competent owners (emphasis on competent owners).
> 
> I'm pretty sure that all the popular breeders here in the US have sold pups to sport performance (flyball, agility, dock diving, etc) or other such non-bite sport (like SAR) homes. Can't think of an exception to that actually.
> 
> Based on the responses, I think people are so horrified at the thought of a "flyball strain" of Malinois, that their reading comprehension is suffering.


and I am not hearing of ANY Malinois litters. Every Malinois I know playing the spot is from a different place. and it appears that they either come from crappy breeders out to be a bad ass and make a buck or they are dog that need a "job" and focus but are not strong enough for bitework.

I've been playing flyball for over 6 years and have traveled everywhere in California and Nevada playing, and we drove from the Bay Area to St. Louis for U-Fli Championships 2 years ago. I hang out with some of the fastest dogs and teams in the country - I have active FB friends all over the country who play. 

again, I have never heard of a Malinois litter purposely bred for flyball. In agility, because you get a lot of AKC breeders - this could be different.


----------



## Tracy Davis-Sullivan

Ryan Venables said:


> That Mal is from Geoff Empey and if it weighs 40lbs, I'd be surprised. But fast as hell and drive for days. It's being cross-trained in FR now.


Nope. 

1 for 1. Vixen from Rocket Relay is from Loups du Soleil. Geoff bred Legend on Burning Rubber.

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Rocket-Relay-Flyball-Club/181072838605798 - September 5th posting. Right after they became the first NAFA team to break into 14 seconds.


----------



## Nicole Stark

I'm just curious, where did this "playing" reference come from in terms of engaging a dog in a specific sport? Seems like in the last year I'm starting to see more and more references to this and I am not sure why there has been a shift away from a reference to "competition" or even "training in" a particular sport.


----------



## Tracy Davis-Sullivan

Nicole Stark said:


> I'm just curious, where did this "playing" reference come from in terms of engaging a dog in a specific sport? Seems like in the last year I'm starting to see more and more references to this and I am not sure why there has been a shift away from a reference to "competition" or even "training in" a particular sport.



Well, because most folks on WDF have expressed the sentiment that if it's not bite sports - it's just dancing with your dog, so to speak.

I call them "trials" (agility) or "tournaments" (flyball) or "competitions" (dock diving) or "silly chase the fake bunny fun time" (AKC lure coursing) and tell my mom we're off to "go compete" in <insert location> next weekend.

And we train our butts off, it's true. But again, it's that perception of not being cool enough since it's not a bite sport. Doesn't matter that I want something more than a dog that trots around the agility ring or a dog that runs a "decent time" in flyball - it's not a bite sport.


----------



## Nicole Stark

Ah, screw that. If you compete or train with that intention you certainly aren't playing around. I don't compete and that's where I draw the line for myself. Someday that might change but until it does, I won't consider myself anything other than just an average owner of dogs. Yeap, I said it. Pets.


----------



## Christopher Smith

Nicole Stark said:


> I'm just curious, where did this "playing" reference come from in terms of engaging a dog in a specific sport? Seems like in the last year I'm starting to see more and more references to this and I am not sure why there has been a shift away from a reference to "competition" or even "training in" a particular sport.


 I use that term to mock those people that think they are doing "real work" with their dog and believe that somehow the dog knows the difference. This way I get a little giggle and they get to live out their Z-Day/Bruce Willis fantasies. Fun for all! :mrgreen:


----------



## Christopher Smith

Tiago Fontes said:


> Ok... How were the mothers? Were they exhibiting similar traits as the sires? How were they bred?
> 
> Fact is, if you breed properly and use on both ends of the equation, inidividuals that express what you're looking to obtain, odds are that the offspring will exhibit similar traits.
> 
> However, it is nearly impossible that the parents fully throw themselves in a consistent basis, hence why, it should be used as breeding stock those individuals which demonstrate intensely the traits you're eager to obtain.


OK...I finally stopped laughing at the fact that it took you 24 hours to sort yourself out and come back with a second reply. Good for you. \\/

But what you have written does not disagree with my statement. 



> Dogs routinely produce dogs better than themselves


----------



## Christopher Smith

Martine Loots said:


> So the dog in your signature must be “home made” then…or is it “home made with a foreign ice cream flavor”? :mrgreen:


Yes he is home made. I would not say foreign flavor, but foreign ingredients perhaps. I bring the flavor.


----------



## Christopher Smith

Martine Loots said:


> *Workingmalinois (aka Martine)* posted there.
> I never said I didn't. I was a regular member there.
> The the owner of that forum designed our logo btw and still is a good friend.


Yeah I remember you posting there too. Wow, same woman designed your logo! It's important for a business to have a nice logo. Cool. 



...good talk


----------



## Nicole Stark

Christopher Smith said:


> I bring the flavor.


That's gross. ha ha.


----------



## Christopher Smith

Martine Loots said:


> Upbringing never "makes" a dog. Quality is there genetically, no matter the upbringing.
> It may make the dog "look" strong, but but you can never add what he's lacking genetically.
> Upbringing can mask a lot of things but they will come out eventually.
> 
> 
> 
> There is nothing wrong with a dog being social. Strong character and courage have nothing to do with aggression.
> I know good dogs that are social and some that aren’t.
> 
> But to me the definition of social isn’t “being everybody’s buddy and let everybody mess and play with you”.
> To me, my dog Fils is very social. He is totally indifferent to other people and wouldn’t even think of harming someone. Gets along with dogs too. There would be no issues if some kid would touch him unexpectedly. But he certainly wouldn’t allow someone else to take him for a walk or play with him, so probably he’d be marked “not social” by a lot of people in the US?
> 
> Joâo’s old dog “One” loved kids. They could pet him without any danger. But playing wouldn’t have been possible and towards adults he wasn’t easy.
> 
> Tim and Fun aren’t social but don’t show aggression either as long as you leave them alone.
> 
> All of them are/were balanced and clear in the head but still they were completely different dogs.


This is a really good post and I agree with you. But I still believe that a Malinois can still be a very good dog for flyball. I know of many dogs that playwink flyball that are not social butterflies, and do very well in the sport. 

Has anyone else noticed that it's only people from outside of the US that think Malinois can't do flyball? Those of you from outside of North America, what is your experience with flyball? Have you ever trained it or been to trial?


----------



## Tiago Fontes

Christopher Smith said:


> OK...I finally stopped laughing at the fact that it took you 24 hours to sort yourself out and come back with a second reply. Good for you. \\/
> 
> But what you have written does not disagree with my statement.


Sometimes, it's better 24 hours late, than lost forever... 

It definitely does not agree with your statement. If you read my words as being in agreement with your statement, then perhaps my english is worse than I thought, lol.


----------



## Tiago Fontes

Christopher Smith said:


> This is a really good post and I agree with you. But I still believe that a Malinois can still be a very good dog for flyball. I know of many dogs that playwink flyball that are not social butterflies, and do very well in the sport.
> 
> Has anyone else noticed that it's only people from outside of the US that think Malinois can't do flyball? Those of you from outside of North America, what is your experience with flyball? Have you ever trained it or been to trial?


I think that these big european malinois kennels (that probably dont really know what they are doing) should all get together, travel to America to attend and participate in a flyball seminar. After getting flyball savvy, incorporate as a test for their breeding stock so they are never behind the american counterparts when producing super working flyball malinois....lol


----------



## Christopher Smith

Tiago Fontes said:


> I think that these big european malinois kennels (that probably dont really know what they are doing) should all get together, travel to America to attend and participate in a flyball seminar. After getting flyball savvy, incorporate as a test for their breeding stock so they are never behind the american counterparts when producing super working flyball malinois....lol


That or they could stop arguing about things they don't know about. Six in one hand half a dozen in the other. :lol:


----------



## Nicole Stark

Oh I don't know Chris ahem Christopher, one of the great pastimes within the WDF is following a baited thread and watching it grow into something rather ridiculous.


----------



## Christopher Smith

Nicole Stark said:


> Oh I don't know Chris ahem Christopher, one of the great pastimes within the WDF is following a baited thread and watching it grow into something rather ridiculous.


O


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Nicole Stark said:


> Oh I don't know Chris ahem Christopher, one of the great pastimes within the WDF is following a baited thread and watching it grow into something rather ridiculous.


There is something special about that!


----------



## Mario Fernandez

Poor Vitto asked a simple question and gets 20 pages. Welcome to the WDF.


----------



## Katie Finlay

Mario Fernandez said:


> Poor Vitto asked a simple question and gets 20 pages. Welcome to the WDF.


All I tried to do was give a simple answer. Apparently the wrong one (though I still stand by it!)

Bad me. Bad.


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Christopher Smith said:


> .... Has anyone else noticed that it's only people from outside of the US that think Malinois can't do flyball? Those of you from outside of North America, what is your experience with flyball? Have you ever trained it or been to trial?




Is flyball still mainly a US thing?


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Timothy Stacy said:


> I was dreaming Martine, I also dreamed Jeff was back.


Tim,

It must have been a dream. Jeff is showing up as "banned user" again :-(


----------



## Nicole Stark

Thomas Barriano said:


> Tim,
> 
> It must have been a dream. Jeff is showing up as "banned user" again :-(


Jeff said he has his own forum, if this is true and someone has the link to it please PM me.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Nicole Stark said:


> Jeff said he has his own forum, if this is true and someone has the link to it please PM me.


I'd be interest in his forum if he has one too. A forum with rules by Jeff O should be entertaining? ;-)


----------



## Nicole Stark

Thomas Barriano said:


> I'd be interest in his forum if he has one too. A forum with rules by Jeff O should be entertaining? ;-)


OK Thomas, if I receive any info which confirms that I will let you know.


----------



## leslie cassian

Let me know, too, Nicole.


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Katie Finlay said:


> All I tried to do was give a simple answer. Apparently the wrong one (though I still stand by it!)
> 
> Bad me. Bad.






Bad you. Bad. :lol:


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Nicole Stark said:


> OK Thomas, if I receive any info which confirms that I will let you know.


Not a Forum or Group but a Face Book page
https://www.facebook.com/groups/432677456774519/456247947750803/?notif_t=group_comment


----------



## Sara Waters

Christopher Smith said:


> Has anyone else noticed that it's only people from outside of the US that think Malinois can't do flyball? Those of you from outside of North America, what is your experience with flyball? Have you ever trained it or been to trial?


From what I have read on the Malinois, and my actual experience with them is zero, seems it can do anything you want it to do as long as you match it to the right handler and choose a dog with a suitable temperament for what you want. 

My experience with Flyball is also zero because there was little interest in it here when they tried to introduce it. I dont think I would like to subject my best sheepdogs to the pounding on the box where they get the ball, that thought alone would put me off I think. 

As to working vs playing. Well I need my dog to help me with my sheep and I also do agility with them. Both pursuits require serious training so I dont really regard either as more or less than the other. True I couldnt run my sheep without the help of my dogs, but agility requires some serious focus and training if we want to do any good when we do the long drive to the city for trials. 

I dont trial my dog in herding as we get enough sheepwork on the farm to make the thought of travelling long distances just to trial on sheep unappealing. 

Agility is a nice change and a different challenge for me and the dogs because I am not working with instinct like I am with herding so I have to do things differently. It is a different type of training.


----------



## Doug Zaga

Thomas Barriano said:


> Tim,
> 
> It must have been a dream. Jeff is showing up as "banned user" again :-(


Where's Waldo...came and gone like Kansas' Dust in the Wind! :grin:


----------



## Christopher Smith

Doug Zaga said:


> ...came and gone like Kansas' Dust in the Wind!


Just like his aspirations of greatness.


----------



## Harry Keely

BLAH BLAH BLAH, so glad I came back around to read the same old ridicoulous crap. Folks nothing you say, do or think makes a difference, people are going to do what they want when they want so whats the point of arguing through a screen. Everybody should be worried about what nobody else is doing and worry about your own dogs, pontless pointless antics.:-& think its time to go missing again, use to learn something around here and share ideas. geeeezzzzzzzzzz


----------



## Sara Waters

Harry Keely said:


> BLAH BLAH BLAH, so glad I came back around to read the same old ridicoulous crap. Folks nothing you say, do or think makes a difference, people are going to do what they want when they want so whats the point of arguing through a screen. Everybody should be worried about what nobody else is doing and worry about your own dogs, pontless pointless antics.:-& think its time to go missing again, use to learn something around here and share ideas. geeeezzzzzzzzzz


I sort of disagree. I actually learnt quite a lot about the Mal and what to consider if I ever decided to own one, which at this stage is unlikely, given my current requirements, I think I have the dogs that suit me best.. 

As the owner years ago of a sport bred BC when I lived in the suburbs for awhile, a thread very similar to this on the Border Collie boards did a whole lot to change the way I viewed Border collies and their breeding and everything else about them.


----------



## Lee H Sternberg

Harry Keely said:


> BLAH BLAH BLAH, so glad I came back around to read the same old ridicoulous crap. Folks nothing you say, do or think makes a difference, people are going to do what they want when they want so whats the point of arguing through a screen. Everybody should be worried about what nobody else is doing and worry about your own dogs, pontless pointless antics.:-& think its time to go missing again, use to learn something around here and share ideas. geeeezzzzzzzzzz


I agree Harry! 22 pages of this same old shit!](*,)


----------



## Lee H Sternberg

Sara Waters said:


> I sort of disagree. I actually learnt quite a lot about the Mal and what to consider if I ever decided to own one, which at this stage is unlikely, given my current requirements, I think I have the dogs that suit me best..
> 
> As the owner years ago of a sport bred BC when I lived in the suburbs for awhile, a thread very similar to this on the Border Collie boards did a whole lot to change the way I viewed Border collies and their breeding and everything else about them.


I understand, Sara. I think 5 pages might have sufficed.


----------



## Sara Waters

Lee H Sternberg said:


> I understand, Sara. I think 5 pages might have sufficed.


Probably but some times it takes awhile to get there as everbody like to have their say. LOL I learnt a fair bit anyway along the way about something I didnt know much about. For me an inside diversion out of the heat and flies, winding down from a full on 3 months of lambing and all its sometimes messy dramas that unfold at usually inconvenient hours of the night and day.


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## Nicole Stark

I'm starting to think that these forums are a bit like your every day person-to-person relationships that occur with people. At first it's interesting and new, which encourages people to be open and willing to discuss their accomplishments, goals, what they are working on, qualities they desire (keeping in mind that in this specific context I am talking about dogs). Then, unless there's something tangible to keep those relationships intact they start degrading and the connection starts to unravel. Nothing is as interesting as it once was or when there's discussion, it seems no one is listening. 

I make that kind of ridiculous analogy because of the negative statements made by many of the members including myself, who joined this forum within the first 3 or so years of start up. Seems to me that for a lot of them the thrill is gone, everything that needed to be discussed has been and anyone those members wanted to make and maintain contact with they have done so and they don't use this forum to have the conversations that used to be had here. 

So the shift starts to occur and what ends up being left is something quite different from the original concept. Seems to me the primary groups of people who still manage to be able to start a topic and keep it meanful are those in SAR/Dectection type work. There was a time when the officer and military membership was considerably more active and of all the discussion those were the ones I learned the most from. I can't remember the last time I've seen much more than a few sentences from the few remaining active members from that group of individuals. I miss it and I doubt we'll ever see that kind of participation from them again within this forum. Elsewhere? Maybe so...


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## Vitto Pacheco

I was over this page 3 [-(


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## Lindsay Janes

Vitto Pacheco said:


> I was over this page 3 [-(


Get a Malinois from rescue to do fly-ball and agility.


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## Britney Pelletier

Vitto Pacheco said:


> I was over this page 3 [-(


That's too bad, since there is plenty of valuable information beyond page 3.


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## Lee H Sternberg

Britney Pelletier said:


> That's too bad, since there is plenty of valuable information beyond page 3.


Yeah, too bad he didn't hang in there until page 5!:-D


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## Joby Becker

everybodies pages are different lol..

this post is on page 6 for me.. I have it set for 40 posts per page in my preferences..


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## Lee H Sternberg

Joby Becker said:


> everybodies pages are different lol..
> 
> this post is on page 6 for me.. I have it set for 40 posts per page in my preferences..


If I did that on my little notebook I would need a microscope to read it.:smile:


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## will fernandez

Vitto Pacheco said:


> I was over this page 3 [-(


Get the best Malinois you can find and make him a fly ball champ...Or would look a that Lubeck puppy in the video...he has the makings of a pretty good Flyball dog....


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Nahhhh, not flyball, he's pretty cute and love the retrieve. I'd like to try him with livestock.

T


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## Tammy St. Louis

>>>WDF member Tammy St Louis wanted a pup from my litter and her needs and wants for a Malinois didn't fit in what I envisioned what Malinois's life should be. She is a Dog Aggression expert and had 2 rehabbed DA pitbulls at the time with a huge pack of different breed dogs. I just didn't think it was a cool situation for a Malinois puppy to be in, frankly is scared the crap out of me. After countless emails. phone calls and much back and forth between us the last deposit was in and Tammy missed out. About 2 weeks later one of the buyers backed out, the phone rings within seconds of me posting that someone backed out and it was Tammy. She took that guy's spot right away. 

I had a male that seemed a lot more mellow that the rest of the pups he was a real sweet boy. He bit and tugged, wasn't scared of loud noises just a lot of the other pups over shadowed him in the craziness that a litter of Malinois is. That's the one Tammy wanted and ended up getting. The whole family got all emotional when he was taken home by Tamm. Then I was so worried sick about his situation feeling responsible for anything that could happen to him. 

2 years later all that worry and fretting was for naught, he has turned out amazing! This pup has done so many things agility, sledding, dock diving, competitive OB and now Tamm has even gotten the Bite sport bug and gotten a French Ring Brevet on him last month. Not counting for all the hikes and swimming they do either! She is an amazing owner! All puppy buyers deserve an owner like her, seriously she is that awesome. This is one lucky pup! I am very thankful that Tammy has him. She is a great ambassador for the breed of what it can be. It all started out with someone who wanted a Malinois for agility and OB, who woulda thunk it? Sure lended my theories to be broken! LOL!>>>>


I havent been on here in a very long time, but checked in and this thread appealed to me , 

>>>2 years later all that worry and fretting was for naught, he has turned out amazing!

Geez Geoff, I hope it didnt take 2 yrs for you to figure out i was a good owner and that he is a great dog ! 

My opinion on this is that even though breeders agree that you guys should not be BREEDING FOR agility or flyball dogs TO ME, dont be soo quick to judge a person who wants a mal for these reasons, 

as I was one of these people, when first looking into a mal, some breeders thought they were too much dog for me , ( as i was just a dog trainer ya know ) 
I did have a Kadi who was very open minded to me wanting a sport dog, she was judging ME not what i wanted the dog for, 
and then Geoff who i knew was leary if i could HANDLE a mal , ( which is a very funny thought now ) and then Konnie , who has seen what i do with my dogs and has never had issue selling me a dog , ( or two ) lol 

i was just a dog trainer looking for a active sport dog, as geoff said i own many breeds, dogue , pit bull , doberman , had working sheps , schipperkes , and a am eskimo, 

The mals have been one of the easiest for me ,, so for people to think i could not handle them is very funny , i can handle class full of aggressive dogs , and a house full of dogs with issues, but not a mal,,,
I NOW HAVE 3 ! 

they are the breed for me, and yes since i got them have gotten into bitesports , ( because of Geoff , and i am thankful for that ) 
But even if i didnt do bitework with them .... i do not think i am any less of a owner than someone who does bitesports

If anything , i know i am a better owner than some people who do bitesports, who do leave their dogs in crates or kennels all the time, never walk them or enjoy the dog , and if they are not good enough get rid of them ,,
my dogs are a part of my family , they live loose in the house, they sleep in my bed and on my couches, we go for bush hikes almost everyday , they go swimming in the summer,
they do a variety of sports, and do WELL at them , 
and for those who think agility is just getting a dog to jump a jump, it is alot of technical work if you are really into it , and there is alot of work that goes into every sport i do 

and in the end if they are not the best dog for bitework or agility or whatever sport i got them to do , i would NEVER rehome them , they are my dogs for life,

and to me that s the type of home as a breeder i would like to see my dogs in 

a working ,sport home,,
but again , to think someone is not worthy of a mal because they want to do other sports other than ring, i dont think thats fair ,, you may be missing out on a great home for your dog,

who will maybe be like me , and AFTER having a mal, THEN get into the bitework sports,,,


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## leslie cassian

When I read Tammy's post I realize there is a similarity in how we got our first Mal. I wanted one, but was even less 'qualified' than Tammy, having only ever had pet dogs and a little bit of guard dog experience. 

My breeder's initial response to my email for a puppy for an active pet home was that he bred too much dog for what I wanted. Then he emailed me a few weeks later that he had a pet quality pup in his litter that he would sell me. 

Sure, my mal was more high maintenance than any dog I had owned before, but having a dog that was full of drive and capable of doing different sports, including bitesports, opened a lot of doors for me to explore different venues in dog training and learn how to be a better dog handler. 

I got lucky in the dog I got, but I also chose a breeder partly because he was in driving distance (6 hrs away), but also because he bred dogs that worked. I wanted the brains and soundness of a working line dog, rather than a show line dog, though I really had no idea what I was doing at the time. 

If I was looking at a breeder today, I would look at the titles and accomplishments of that breeder's dogs and the venues they compete in. Nothing but agility titles - not a breeder I would pick for my next Ring dog. A mix of titles in different sports, including agility - something I would consider as it would lead me to think the breeder is producing well rounded, versatile dogs and placing them in working homes.


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## Geoff Empey

Tammy St. Louis said:


> >>>2 years later all that worry and fretting was for naught, he has turned out amazing!
> 
> Geez Geoff, I hope it didnt take 2 yrs for you to figure out i was a good owner and that he is a great dog !
> 
> My opinion on this is that even though breeders agree that you guys should not be BREEDING FOR agility or flyball dogs TO ME, dont be soo quick to judge a person who wants a mal for these reasons,
> 
> as I was one of these people, when first looking into a mal, some breeders thought they were too much dog for me , ( as i was just a dog trainer ya know )
> I did have a Kadi who was very open minded to me wanting a sport dog, she was judging ME not what i wanted the dog for,
> and then Geoff who i knew was leary if i could HANDLE a mal , ( which is a very funny thought now ) and then Konnie , who has seen what i do with my dogs and has never had issue selling me a dog , ( or two ) lol
> 
> i was just a dog trainer looking for a active sport dog, as geoff said i own many breeds, dogue , pit bull , doberman , had working sheps , schipperkes , and a am eskimo,
> 
> The mals have been one of the easiest for me ,, so for people to think i could not handle them is very funny , i can handle class full of aggressive dogs , and a house full of dogs with issues, but not a mal,,,
> I NOW HAVE 3 !
> 
> they are the breed for me, and yes since i got them have gotten into bitesports , ( because of Geoff , and i am thankful for that )
> But even if i didnt do bitework with them .... i do not think i am any less of a owner than someone who does bitesports
> 
> If anything , i know i am a better owner than some people who do bitesports, who do leave their dogs in crates or kennels all the time, never walk them or enjoy the dog , and if they are not good enough get rid of them ,,
> my dogs are a part of my family , they live loose in the house, they sleep in my bed and on my couches, we go for bush hikes almost everyday , they go swimming in the summer,
> they do a variety of sports, and do WELL at them ,
> and for those who think agility is just getting a dog to jump a jump, it is alot of technical work if you are really into it , and there is alot of work that goes into every sport i do
> 
> and in the end if they are not the best dog for bitework or agility or whatever sport i got them to do , i would NEVER rehome them , they are my dogs for life,
> 
> and to me that s the type of home as a breeder i would like to see my dogs in
> 
> a working ,sport home,,
> but again , to think someone is not worthy of a mal because they want to do other sports other than ring, i dont think thats fair ,, you may be missing out on a great home for your dog,
> 
> who will maybe be like me , and AFTER having a mal, THEN get into the bitework sports,,,


Yup yup yup .. and no it didn't take me 2 years to figure out that you are a great owner and trainer. I mean that 2 years later you have done all these amazing things with him and all my worrying and fretting over it was for naught.


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## Rachael Lincoln

I would check out Jean Claude Balu. He has a great litter right now and this might be his last. He is well versed in detection, bite, ring sport, IPO, etc. In fact we just trained a few detection dogs. We do bite work regularly and all his dogs are not only versatile, but they are sweet and love their people. www.baludtc.com or www.jcbalu.com. He has breeding longer than most of us have been alive!


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## Megan Berry

Vitto Pacheco said:


> I was over this page 3 [-(



We argue a lot here... you get used to it...8-[


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## Lee H Sternberg

Rachael Lincoln said:


> I would check out Jean Claude Balu. He has a great litter right now and this might be his last. He is well versed in detection, bite, ring sport, IPO, etc. In fact we just trained a few detection dogs. We do bite work regularly and all his dogs are not only versatile, but they are sweet and love their people. www.baludtc.com or www.jcbalu.com. He has breeding longer than most of us have been alive!


Balu worked my dogs when he was in Idaho. Great old guy who forgot what most know about training. Get out of the way when he gets pissed off. Say hi for me.


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## Rachael Lincoln

I have been living at his kennel this last year, yes when he is pissed it isn't pretty, but damn he knows so much it's worth the occasional pain! I love that he doesn't go easy on me for being a woman. When I suit he doesn't care, it's about the dog not my feelings!


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## rick smith

re: "he knows so much it's worth the occasional pain! I love that he doesn't go easy on me for being a woman. When I suit he doesn't care, it's about the dog not my feelings!"
...interesting point !

over the years i have noticed that women are often better at handling hard dogs compared to men 
....often thought about it

my "opinion" is that it might be because women can't/don't rely as much on physical measures and therefore have to get into the dogs head more compared to men who are stronger and often manhandle the dog more 

on the flip side i have seen women who try and act "manly", and they are not as successful when they train 

p.s. by "hard", i mean hard to train; not in the sense of recovering from corrections


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## Sara Waters

rick smith said:


> re: "he knows so much it's worth the occasional pain! I love that he doesn't go easy on me for being a woman. When I suit he doesn't care, it's about the dog not my feelings!"
> ...interesting point !
> 
> over the years i have noticed that women are often better at handling hard dogs compared to men
> ....often thought about it
> 
> my "opinion" is that it might be because women can't/don't rely as much on physical measures and therefore have to get into the dogs head more compared to men who are stronger and often manhandle the dog more
> 
> on the flip side i have seen women who try and act "manly", and they are not as successful when they train
> 
> p.s. by "hard", i mean hard to train; not in the sense of recovering from corrections


You did make me smile. I was wondering how men fared if they acted "womanly" when they trained. LOL

Running my own farm now and doing most of the physical work and having spent years working on farms doing all the manly jobs apparently quite successfully, my concepts of manly and womanly have long since been blurred, although as I have got older I have had to work smarter where I can. Is that being womanly?


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## Lee H Sternberg

Rachael Lincoln said:


> I have been living at his kennel this last year, yes when he is pissed it isn't pretty, but damn he knows so much it's worth the occasional pain! I love that he doesn't go easy on me for being a woman. When I suit he doesn't care, it's about the dog not my feelings!


Have you noticed he doesn't much care for dog forums? He used to get really pissed when I quoted someone on here.


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## Timothy Stacy

Rachael Lincoln said:


> I would check out Jean Claude Balu. He has a great litter right now and this might be his last. He is well versed in detection, bite, ring sport, IPO, etc. In fact we just trained a few detection dogs. We do bite work regularly and all his dogs are not only versatile, but they are sweet and love their people. http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/www.baludtc.com or http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/www.jcbalu.com. He has breeding longer than most of us have been alive!


I think it cost money here to advertise a litter


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