# Testing a litter



## Hillary Hamilton

Hey, what is the best way to test a working prospect? Bill is going with me but I'm just wondering for me. Thanks!!


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## Skip Morgart

Hillary Hamilton said:


> Hey, what is the best way to test a working prospect? Bill is going with me but I'm just wondering for me. Thanks!!


 
I like using the Volhard Puppy Aptitude tests. You can find the description and how to do them online. I think they are a very good predictor of future possibilities.


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## Howard Gaines III

Hillary Hamilton said:


> Hey, what is the best way to test a working prospect? Bill is going with me but I'm just wondering for me. Thanks!!


I look at three things: the puppy's reaction to keys jingled and thrown on the floor, the willingness to follow my voice, and how quickly one settles down when they are rolling onto their back.

If the puppy picks the keys up and has no issue with metal, even brings them to me...this is a plus.

A puppy that follows my voice and soft hand claps is one that might want to be with you.

A puppy that is on its back and fights 24/7 is going to be a handful, no pun intended.

As fas as pain tests and the other things you can do, nice but, these are similar to other tests and wrap up in 3.

And look at the kennel conditions and the parents, the nut doesn't fall from the tree...


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## Anne Vaini

Hillary Hamilton said:


> Hey, what is the best way to test a working prospect? Bill is going with me but I'm just wondering for me. Thanks!!


You're doing SchH, right? If I intend to do SchH, I'll be looking for a pup with a genetically calm grip. Watch the parents work and watch the grip. I want a puppy that retrieves wood (like a piece of a dowel). I don't really care if the pup brings it back - I want to see the pup go to it, pick it up and TURN (not run over it, or past it) and carry it around calmly. And for SchH, I'd be looking for a pup that wants to be with me.

Plus all the tests noted by PP's.


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## Daniel Cox

Hillary Hamilton said:


> Hey, what is the best way to test a working prospect? Bill is going with me but I'm just wondering for me. Thanks!!


I think people put too thinking into this puppy testing thing at 8 weeks. Puppies change from day to day. I think you could go and test them one day and get one result and the next day get another result. I would go with your instinct, do not let some damn test that somebody made up be the end result. I have done those test on my current dog/dogs and they have been way off. Use your instinct. Look for a good working litter with strong parents and strong pedigree. Without good genetics in the parents you will never have a chance of getting a good working prospect.. Go and look at the puppies and pick the one that makes you happy. It is so much luck. I also suggest you go and see the puppies 2-3 times before you make your final decision.


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## Jerry Lyda

Trust Bill, he knows what to look for.


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## Anne Vaini

Daniel Cox said:


> Puppies change from day to day. I think you could go and test them one day and get one result and the next day get another result.


Good call.  

Just make sure you're going with instinct - not emotion!


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## Maren Bell Jones

Unless the breeder was local and I could come over periodically to see how they're coming along, I'd probably trust the breeder to pick the one most ideally suited as they see the pups day in and day out. Good breeders want it to be a good match for what your goals are, after all. And if you don't trust the breeder, maybe you should get a different breeder...


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## Jeff Oehlsen

You are hoping to find a Rott that will work and are lookingt at only one litter ??? Need to look at more than just one.


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## Sue DiCero

Howard,

I will send you a picture of Hella 1st trying to grab the keys from gabor and then later, when Gabor tossed them, picking them up and kepping awy from her brothers.

Gabor does the key thing as well as a bunch more. Not any specific test.


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## Bob Scott

I want a pup that shows some form of natural retrieve. As one said, it doesn't have to bring the object back but that is a huge bonus. 
To many have a false idea about the pain test (squeeze between the puppy's toes). 
It's not about how much pain the pup can tolerate. It's all about the pup's recovery. You don't want a pup that sulks away or shows avoidance when yo let it go. 
If someone expierienced goes with you, trust him!
A good breeder would/shoud know pretty much what pup has what traits.


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## Steve Burger

I have been scrutinizing my litter of Dobermann pups since day 1. I had them in a kind of order, based on their interaction with each other from day one. They are 7 weeks, 5 days old today. The last two weeks they have really taken off, especially in terms of their interest in sacks, which consists of rolled up/knotted socks, pieces of leather and strips of burlap. 3 really stood out to me. 

Yesterday I had Lance Collins take a look at them for me. His wife Dr. Gabi Hoffman came with him. The first thing she told me though it is very interesting and can eliminate some puppies for some real obvious red flags, scientifically it is not overly reliable. She went on to tell me that she did her Doctoral thesis on puppy evaluations. 

Lance took them and did his thing with them and basically studied 1) level of sureness 2) playing ability 3) "stick to itness"

Interestingly enough the top 3 he picked matched my top 3. He said I should be happy with the litter as they looked pretty good. That was cool coming from a hard core GSD guy.


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## Howard Gaines III

Bob Scott said:


> I want a pup that shows some form of natural retrieve. As one said, it doesn't have to bring the object back but that is a huge bonus.
> To many have a false idea about the pain test (squeeze between the puppy's toes).
> It's not about how much pain the pup can tolerate. It's all about the pup's recovery. You don't want a pup that sulks away or shows avoidance when yo let it go.
> If someone expierienced goes with you, trust him!
> A good breeder would/shoud know pretty much what pup has what traits.


BOB THIS IS THE BEST INFORMATION OF THE DAY! Why would you test for pain unless you want to put pain on your dog 24/7. Jeff is right in that you NEED to see more than one litter. And Sue send the pics!:mrgreen: 
Gotta love this forum for the information which is found on here...


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## Gillian Schuler

Jerry Lyda said:


> Trust Bill, he knows what to look for.


Good advice!

If your're new to pups and dog sports, only go to a breeder that knows what he has to breed to get him though the sport you are intending to do.

Anything else is perjury.


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## Jerry Lyda

Bill isn't the breeder, he is her TD. He knows dogs from A to Z. He has competed in the world events. Remember though, he can only tell you what he sees at that time. If you can, go often and see the litter and also listen to the breeder. Check and see if the breeder has produced any other dogs that work well. See the sire and dam work. Health.


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## Steve Burger

I wanted to follow up on the discussion I had with Dr. Gabi Hoffman. Her Doctoral thesis research followed 250 GSD puppies (at least that is what I think she said). Puppies were tested at 7 weeks, 5 months and 18 months. The conclusion was there was no reliable testing at 7 weeks that could determine adult behavior at 18 months. She did say that at 5 months there was a bit of reliability. She said the most you could hope for was to maybe eliminate a few undesirable traits, but even so this was not reliable. She said the best you could hope for is having the impressions of the breeder. According to her it's still somewhat of a crapshoot.

With my litter the biggest boy, which we nicknamed Tank, was obviously the most calm throughout the first 8 weeks. There is a couple that have been waiting for a while for a puppy. He is retired and they are not really working dog people. They had their eye on another puppy, though I had suggested "Tank". Well when we got to the club and they met me there the puppy they had been leaning toward decided to show his true colors and was a real asshole toward his littermates. Meanwhile "Tank" went up to them and crawled in their lap. He chose them. When I followed them to their home, Tank proceed to act like he was glad he was finally home. Being the puppy with the earliest indication of extremely thick nerve, nothing fazed him. Even the 10 year old bitch female growling at him did not impress him much. Hopefully in this case his temperament will continue to develop along the same lines as he has exhibited as a puppy.


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## Skip Morgart

Steve Burger said:


> I wanted to follow up on the discussion I had with Dr. Gabi Hoffman. Her Doctoral thesis research followed 250 GSD puppies (at least that is what I think she said). Puppies were tested at 7 weeks, 5 months and 18 months. The conclusion was there was no reliable testing at 7 weeks that could determine adult behavior at 18 months. She did say that at 5 months there was a bit of reliability. She said the most you could hope for was to maybe eliminate a few undesirable traits, but even so this was not reliable. She said the best you could hope for is having the impressions of the breeder. According to her it's still somewhat of a crapshoot.
> 
> With my litter the biggest boy, which we nicknamed Tank, was obviously the most calm throughout the first 8 weeks. There is a couple that have been waiting for a while for a puppy. He is retired and they are not really working dog people. They had their eye on another puppy, though I had suggested "Tank". Well when we got to the club and they met me there the puppy they had been leaning toward decided to show his true colors and was a real asshole toward his littermates. Meanwhile "Tank" went up to them and crawled in their lap. He chose them. When I followed them to their home, Tank proceed to act like he was glad he was finally home. Being the puppy with the earliest indication of extremely thick nerve, nothing fazed him. Even the 10 year old bitch female growling at him did not impress him much. Hopefully in this case his temperament will continue to develop along the same lines as he has exhibited as a puppy.


What tests were given to the puppies? Who did the testing? What experience did the the tester have? I'd like to know more about the Dr's findings.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

How about what lines were used, and who raised them ??

Puppy tests are interesting in that if you give puppy "A" to home "A" and the puppy tests different later on, it is usually how the puppy was raised that made the difference, positive and negative.

It would be interesting to see how she went about proving reliability when so much depends on who is raising the puppy.

In my time as a pet trainer, I met many people that could take a puppy with good prospects and make him a much stronger dog. This is the area I would be really interested in, as there is too much variation in the people raising them to make a statement like that.

I knew my lines really well, and watched pups go the other way as well. Most did not fall off the chart or anything, but did not live up to what they tested. I gave a replacement pup in many cases, and they went to one side as well. Then I was told that this was pretty much the case for all the pups that these people raised.

Lets get that and read it and make fun of her. LOL=D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>


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## Bob Scott

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> How about what lines were used, and who raised them ??
> 
> Puppy tests are interesting in that if you give puppy "A" to home "A" and the puppy tests different later on, it is usually how the puppy was raised that made the difference, positive and negative.
> 
> It would be interesting to see how she went about proving reliability when so much depends on who is raising the puppy.
> 
> In my time as a pet trainer, I met many people that could take a puppy with good prospects and make him a much stronger dog. This is the area I would be really interested in, as there is too much variation in the people raising them to make a statement like that.
> 
> I knew my lines really well, and watched pups go the other way as well. Most did not fall off the chart or anything, but did not live up to what they tested. I gave a replacement pup in many cases, and they went to one side as well. Then I was told that this was pretty much the case for all the pups that these people raised.
> 
> Lets get that and read it and make fun of her. LOL=D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>


I think that's a given with pups. It's the old environment vs genetics thing. 
A good pup's chances to stay good are only as good as the abilities of the new owner, at best!
A shitter will usually stay a shitter. Things can be hidded with good training but underneath it's still a shitter. A shitter for an owner will make shitters out of the best of them. 
:-k Damn! That sounds like Jeff!


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## Gillian Schuler

I think genetics have more influence than environment.

Start off with a relatively "strong" litter. Owners vary from "helping the pup through difficult situations by talking them through it (confirmation that the pup "should be frightened") to those who let the pup overcome his own difficulties. What do you get? Good to very good.

Start off with a relatively "weak" litter. Owners vary from "helping the pup through difficult situations to bullying them though their fears. What do you get? Maybe an intellingent handler will "create" a good dog on the surface but what it wasn't given in genes can't be replaced by good handling. But bullying will have the similar effect as sweet-talking.

For me, a genetically sound dog with good upbringing will always knock the genetically weaker dog with good upbringing.

Or not??? In that case, I'm interested in comments.


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## Emilio Rodriguez

It's true that puppies change and that some tests are open to interpretation. For example if I separate a pup from the litter and create a bond with it by playing for a while. Then I get up and walk away. If the pup follows me around it could be construed as a good thing because it indicates a degree of pack drive. On the other hand it could be said that the pup is lacking independence. It's also important not to disregard the gut feeling you have about a pup which is hard to pinpoint. With that said there are IMO a few tests that definitely indicate certain temperament traits.

One test I will never disregard again even with excellent indications in other areas is the farmer's test, where you lift a puppy up by the scruff. You're looking for the pup to relax it's limbs and accept the position. If you have a pup that becomes tense with limbs rigid and toes splayed out watch out. This pup will take you for an unpleasant ride throughout its life. The cradling test and the roll on side tests are along the same lines. Past the initial reaction you're looking for acceptance of the position.

Retrieving is a great indication of future willingness/directability. Good luck seeing it in a rott puppy though.


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## Bob Scott

Gillian said
"For me, a genetically sound dog with good upbringing will always knock the genetically weaker dog with good upbringing."

Absolutely!
That goes to my comment about good training can hide things but underneath it's still a shitter.


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## Mike Scheiber

Bob Scott said:


> Gillian said
> "For me, a genetically sound dog with good upbringing will always knock the genetically weaker dog with good upbringing."
> 
> Absolutely!
> That goes to my comment about good training can hide things but underneath it's still a shitter.


Also mention the fact that how many well bread good working pups go to pet homes and end up in the pound or returned "to much dog" 
My little thing I like to do when choosing run let the pups chase me see who gives up who lasts the longest same with a rag who lasts the longest who looses interest who doesn't who worries more about what the other pups are doing with the rag. And many of the others already mentioned.


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## Bob Scott

Good points Mike.
The only thing about testing pups in a group is that they may/probably already have their own pecking order established. That can have a great effect on which pup last the longest or stays with the rag longest. The "dominant/controlling pup in that particular litter may not let you see the other pups in their true personalities. 
I've seen a number of pups that really blossom when out from under the "boss" dog's influence.
Obviously a breeder that cares will have a better understanding of the pup's individual personalities.


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## Steve Burger

Skip Morgart said:


> What tests were given to the puppies? Who did the testing? What experience did the the tester have? I'd like to know more about the Dr's findings.


I wondered some of those same things. I just have not had an opportunity to have much of a discussion. I will try to do that soon.


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## Steve Burger

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> How about what lines were used, and who raised them ??
> 
> Puppy tests are interesting in that if you give puppy "A" to home "A" and the puppy tests different later on, it is usually how the puppy was raised that made the difference, positive and negative.
> 
> It would be interesting to see how she went about proving reliability when so much depends on who is raising the puppy.
> 
> In my time as a pet trainer, I met many people that could take a puppy with good prospects and make him a much stronger dog. This is the area I would be really interested in, as there is too much variation in the people raising them to make a statement like that.
> 
> I knew my lines really well, and watched pups go the other way as well. Most did not fall off the chart or anything, but did not live up to what they tested. I gave a replacement pup in many cases, and they went to one side as well. Then I was told that this was pretty much the case for all the pups that these people raised.
> 
> Lets get that and read it and make fun of her. LOL=D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>


I have not had the opportunity to have much of a conversation about it with Dr. Hoffman. My guess is it would be primarily working line GSD's. 

I for one am not discounting the impressions I have had of the litter I am raising. They seemed to have consistently played out for the past several weeks. The nastiest one in the litter is the smallest female. What also is interesting to me is she looks different than the other pups. Like she perhaps inherited more of the genetics from the sire's side(pure German working lines) Since it was nearly a complete out-cross I suppose this is possible. She looks more like some of the lines from that side (the conformation on the other pups is definitely better)

Probably the best indication that she is good is that my wife does not like her, LOL! Collins rated her a 5 (on a scale of 1-5) for play. A 4 on sureness and a 4 on "stick to itness". She is usually last on the sack. If she wins the sack (and she usually does) she runs off with it and the other pups have a hard time catching her with it (she is very possessive and evasive), the little asshole also is climbing the xpen like a rock climber. 

It will be interesting to see how they turn out.


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## Ian Forbes

Emilio Rodriguez said:


> Retrieving is a great indication of future willingness/directability. Good luck seeing it in a rott puppy though.


I agree that a desire to retrieve is a very useful thing. I disagree that you should not expect it in a Rott pup.


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## Emilio Rodriguez

Hello Ian, I didn't want to derail the thread talking about rottweilers and directability so I started a discussion here http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f16/rottweilers-directability-9717/


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## Mike Di Rago

This discussion is very interesting to me as I was responsible of our police force's puppy rearing program up til 2002. To make a short statement about what we did and what the results were. We obtained puppies from breeders involved in schutzhund and kept them for one year. I coached the handlers (all police officers that were interested in the k-9 handler position). We had a 50% success rate with those puppies growing up the pass basic training, this excludes rejects due to medical problemes. I checked with the Nordrhein- Westfalia policedog school and in 1997 they had a 66% success rate.
I have come to beleive that genetics play about 35% and that enviroment, and this will include the quality of imprinting and training will make up the other 65%. So I think genetics plays an important role but it is less than what most people think. The testing is interesting but I don't base all on how a pup will react at 6-8 weeks. 
I think that the imprinting aspect is usualy not considered and when it is it is done wrong. Many people think that imprinting is early training and treat the pup as if they were training it.
I guess this could be another subject for another thread!!
This again is just my opinion.
Mike


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## Emilio Rodriguez

Mike, I'd be very interested to hear more about your experiences with regard to how much genetics and environment have to do with the final outcome. How should a thread about this be titled?


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## Daryl Ehret

"Evo-Devo: environmental impact on heredity during development"


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## Mike Di Rago

Emilio,
I am new on the forum so not sure if this has not been addressed here before. Now I have no scientific data to back what I am saying, only the observations I made in our program and from discussing the same thing with others. We all know that regardless of the attention we give to the genetic selection we make when we chose a litter, some pups won't be adequate for work while others may be. My personal feeling is that although genetics is important as a base, I think it is more of a security blanket for many who think that the genetic aspect will overcome all problems.
How many times do we hear owners receive their pups at 8 weeks and say that they are so proud of the ''ball of energy,and it is all I expected' and that 18 months later the dog is for sale!
The 35% genetic to 65% environment ratio I mentioned earlier is I feel closer to what decides the real ''final product''.
The other major aspect that I feel is important and that is not always addressed properly is the imprinting phase (6 to 16 weeks). Most of the time people think that this is a training phase and don't realize there is no training to be done. The puppy is not to taught to respond in a structured environmental manner but rather in one that appeals to it's instinctive behavior. This will be of great use latter on when the formal training begins.
The reason I feel this is important is that it is the foundation of developing a working dog and that it is very seldom explained or discussed while books are written on bite development, very little is ever done on what to do during the important periode of 6-16 weeks.
Just my opinion Emilio!
Mike


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## Emilio Rodriguez

Mike, I kinda agree with everything you said. But, I also think that genetics play a bigger part in it, I just can't put a number on it. The way I look at it is that it's %100 genetic and %100 environmental because I have to select the best possible and do my best as far as raising the pup. Still getting the adult dog that I want out of a pup is very very difficult for me. I have better luck with adult dogs. Unless I'm going to lines that I'm familiar with.

With that said I've seen very young pups show me behaviors that I like to see that were IMO completely natural to them. When you have a 4 month old pup hear a noise at night and turn on with a serious aggressive bark as compared to another that will never do it you know what I mean.


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## Dwyras Brown

Emilio, where can I get one of those 200% dsogs. Or was that a typo or some new kind of math? I believe both genetics and environment play a part in a dogs outcome. A dog with the genetics of Ceberus can end up being a crapper if you put it in the wrong environment. A dog thats totally crap, can be trained to hide some flaws, but in the end its still a crap dog.


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## Mike Scheiber

Emilio Rodriguez said:


> With that said I've seen very young pups show me behaviors that I like to see that were IMO completely natural to them. When you have a 4 month old pup hear a noise at night and turn on with a serious aggressive bark as compared to another that will never do it you know what I mean.


The deep bark of a 16 week old pup hearing a bump in the night is %100 fear I am %100 certan of that = %200 :razz:


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## Emilio Rodriguez

I had a 4 month old pup do a confident bark and hold all on his own when someone came to my place. Believe what you want. Some things are hard wired and some good dogs are simply hard to ruin. I sold that pup because he wasn't typey and I wanted a good looking dog at the time. This was almost 20 years ago. Some fast maturing dogs are ready for real work before a year of age too.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) 

Uh where did this go wrong ??? Where is that Hoffman chicks research to be found ??? I couldn't find it on the net. (like I had a chance)

I have said for a long time genetics is about 40% of the total equation, I can see less as well. I have had a couple dogs over the years that did not have "the genetics" but did the work just fine.

Everytime I think I am getting a handle on how this works, some stupid anomalie shows up and gets me to thinking I know **** all again.

Really want to read this thesis.


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## Don Turnipseed

I totally agree. Genetics is in the neighborhood of 35%. Everything else is environment. One thing that has to be in the genetics is overall confidence.....without that none of the rest of the genetics matter much.


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## Daryl Ehret

I had once believed that roughly 1/3 genetics, 1/3 early development, and 1/3 training was responsible for the end result. But now, I really believe it can flexibly vary in each regard. Some offspring are more truly representative of their parents genetics than others, some producers being more prepotent in producing themselves into their young. Some littermates will share more in common than others, and so on.

Now, I believe it to be more of a "canalization" process, _each step along the way_ can be of great overall importance for maximizing your results. My job as a breeder, is to begin with genetics, in regard to family history and the breeding pair themselves, and follows with a portion of early development. It can be made the most of, or screwed up from that point on.

But also, having the right dog for you, your personal training style and every day lifestyle, and the work you intend to do with the dog is certainly going to matter when the leash is handed over. Each step along the way can better or worsen the potential result. _The right dog for the right handler for the right job in with the right training regimen in the right place at the right time is 600% or better!_


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## Sanda Stankovic

OK I have to ask something you knowledgable people... I hope its not out of place but this is what got me thinking: 



> One test I will never disregard again even with excellent indications in other areas is the farmer's test, where you lift a puppy up by the scruff. You're looking for the pup to relax it's limbs and accept the position. If you have a pup that becomes tense with limbs rigid and toes splayed out watch out. This pup will take you for an unpleasant ride throughout its life.


Now, is there any association between high drive pup and the degree of their high-strung behaviour, sort to speak where this type of test would select against? Or is high working drive totally independent to how they respond to this test?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

High strung has nothing to do with high drive. THere are high strung low drive dogs all over the place.

I don't really see the point in this test, it is the same as rolling them on their back, or lifting them slightly off the ground.


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## Don Turnipseed

Be tough to test my pups that ways as that is how I pick them up all the time anyway. That is how most people used to pick them up. Now it is done so rarely is actually considered a "test".


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## Emilio Rodriguez

This test is for willingness/directability, how easily this dog will respond to your directions and how comfortable and accepting it will be when you force it to do something when it would rather be doing something else. The dog's overall attitude to the handler after realizing that the handler may prohibit it from doing certain things and demand doing other things. I believe drive to be independent of this that's why I said that I wouldn't select such a pup even if there were other very good indications.

If I had a need for a dog to perform a task and nothing more maybe it wouldn't matter so much although I can't think of a task where some degree of communication between handler and dog is not necessary. Maybe a compound dog. Still it's possible to get a dog with all the good stuff and directability so why settle for a dog that makes me feel like an a-hole.


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## Gillian Schuler

If you have a serious breeder he will want to place the pups that will match the handler's abilities and needs. He sees the pups 24/7. He sees what will suit the police what will suit sport handlers. If he can't tell you which pup will be good for you, then numerous visits, taking the pup away from the litter and testing him, according to your needs will help.


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## Daryl Ehret

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I have said for a long time genetics is about 40% of the total equation, I can see less as well. I have had a couple dogs over the years that did not have "the genetics" but did the work just fine.
> 
> Everytime I think I am getting a handle on how this works, some stupid anomalie shows up and gets me to thinking I know **** all again.


I think the current views of professional scientists and naturalists are comfortable in that approximation.

_"genes only shape the broad outline of mental and behavioral functions, accounting for at most 50 percent of a given trait, and in many instances for far less. Inheritance may bias us in certain directions, but many other factors dictate how one's genes are expressed." ~Joseph LeDoux_


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## Emilio Rodriguez

Gillian Schuler said:


> If you have a serious breeder he will want to place the pups that will match the handler's abilities and needs. He sees the pups 24/7. He sees what will suit the police what will suit sport handlers.


I've had a hard time finding those serious breeders. So far all the ones that I've come across keep the best dogs for themselves or people close to them. They sell the rest where it suits them, even the ones that should be culled. Even in a good litter you'd be lucky to get one or two good dogs.


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## Daryl Ehret

Sometimes the only thing holding some of them back, is the social dynamics of the litter itself. Each pup learns a "role", and as puppies are removed (assuming they don't all go at once), some of the remaining ones are affected and learn to behave differently, oftentimes to their personal benefit.


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## Emilio Rodriguez

It's an interesting concept and sounds good in theory. In the end though when you examine them as adults you'll be lucky to have one or two good dogs. Other than that you're absolutely right, every time that I've seen there was one last puppy remaining it was the pick of the litter


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## Daryl Ehret

In a theoretical example; take out for instance, a "bully" from the litter. Say that one was chosen for its assertive dominance over the other pups, and oftentimes that bully affect only one or two certain pups. Afterward, those two pups have a much better chance of normal early development, without the bully affecting their experiences, propagating their role toward submissive behavior. Though, you might also see another pup take the bully's place, becoming more dominant and assertive than was prior toward the remaining pups. Having had portions of litters many times out to 4 months or so, you can experience a lot of dynamic changes in their behavior, with each alteration of their environments.

I don't usually perceive any particular pup as "pick" of the litter, but often times one or possibly two are clearly the least desirable. One of my litters from last year, I explained to the buyer that this pup he had chosen was my least preferred. But being the only male of the litter, he was not dissuaded, and entered the dog in training with Ivan Balabinov. So with expert training had, I'm sure he'll be at least adequate for the gentleman. The videos I've seen were short of spectacular, but having started early, around 6 months age, will probably make a great difference from what "should've" been.


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## Emilio Rodriguez

Isn't this exactly why there's a preferred age to take the pup out of a litter? I believe the accepted time is 7-8 weeks, that's when I do it anyways. You are right in that the bully may not have an advantage that is based on a truly advantageous temperament trait. This is obvious when you put a pup with another that is simply older by a couple of weeks. I don't have a lot of experience with litters and watching the dynamics within them but I have some. I can say from my experience that a 3 month old pup of great temperament can blow away another decent pup that is 3 weeks older as far as the good things it will show. The fact that the older pup is stronger physically does not affect it. It's all about temperament and genetics IMO. Some percentages were given putting the genetics part at %35-%40. I believe if you don't do anything wrong to **** things up then genetics is %100 the determining factor. This is what I meant in my earlier post.


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## Gillian Schuler

Daryl Ehret said:


> Sometimes the only thing holding some of them back, is the social dynamics of the litter itself. Each pup learns a "role", and as puppies are removed (assuming they don't all go at once), some of the remaining ones are affected and learn to behave differently, oftentimes to their personal benefit.


Interesting, I've often wondered about this. Is it like shuflling cards anew maybe. 

What actually happens? I took my pup back to his former litter as 2 had remained but I couldn't see a difference between the largest female and him - they were at loggerheads as they were in the whole litter. My male was the one who, when we threw "Hamburgers" or little bones into the midst of the whole litter, always got the best share. He and the largest female had ferocious fights even afterwards, maybe more so.

I can't quite see how the individual pup can change after some have left, though. It would be interesting to hear how you experienced them.


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## Daryl Ehret

_"Isn't this exactly why there's a preferred age to take the pup out of a litter? I believe the accepted time is 7-8 weeks, that's when I do it anyways."_

I've earned enough sarcasm for the moment. Genetically identical twins even grow apart in differences, before they've even left the womb. Genes do not ever represent 100% of what you see before you. Environment assists in the regulation of which genes are expressed and which are silenced, early development encoding much of these. The phenotypes you see are only a small portion of the genetic makeup available during this time, and are latently retained for future generations.

It should also be said, that what's ideal "pick" for one person, is not always the same for another. If a breeder and their trainer friends keep for themselves the best _(and I'm sure they have preferences too, due to personal style and experience)_, complaining certainly won't change that. Start breeding for yourself, I suppose.

In dogs I've kept to even four months, I've seen _very radical changes_, better and worse, only a couple months afterward. Some specific changes in character and drives are more malleable than others, some _of those_ even depending on cross affecting hardwired behaviors, in prior to.


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## Emilio Rodriguez

What do you mean by earned enough sarcasm? I wasn't being sarcastic just calling it like I see it.

In theory you're probably right but I'm talking about the pup as it comes out of the womb. There's nothing we can do to influence it up to that point other than making sure that the bitch's needs are met. It's not like we can put headphones on her stomach and play Mozart to the pups  Once they come out it is what it is and based on genetics and some stuff that's beyond our control. Would anyone take a puppy with an obvious temperament disadvantage at 8 weeks because it could possibly be fixed? No. You pick the best and hope for the best.


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## Daryl Ehret

Sure, there may be a pup or two with a clear disadvantage, and it wouldn't be my preference to purposely try to "fix" them in any way. The less involved I am, the fewer contributing variables I have to wonder of their true origin. There are some things that will influence the litter prior to birth, as in diet, whether or not the mother is worked under stress late term, so not totally free of influence in the womb. I've used females in protection work pretty late, and actually had improved results, but it may depend on the female.


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## Mike Di Rago

Just one comment i would like to make here. The term ''pick of the litter'', doesn't mean the best pup it only means that I will get first choice of that litter. Then I will pick according to my needs or according to what am looking for. Of course this varies from person to person on needs and preferences. 
So when the breeder tells me I have ''pick of the litter'', to me it only means I get first choice. So based on some comments by the breeder on what he has seen in the 6-7 weeks he has had the litter and on what I observe when I test the litter I will make my choice.
The other important factor is that the puppies will change once removed from the ''nest'' environment. Many pups progress when given one on one time. The pecking order of the litter does influence the development of the pups.
Mike


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: I believe if you don't do anything wrong to **** things up then genetics is %100 the determining factor. This is what I meant in my earlier post.

Environment is exactly what we are saying is the greater portion, and you are contradicting yourself with this statement.


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## Emilio Rodriguez

It's not that difficult working around having to kick the dog in the head.


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## Connie Sutherland

Emilio Rodriguez said:


> It's not that difficult working around having to kick the dog in the head.


Do you have that phrase saved somewhere to copy and paste? It's getting old.


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## Dwyras Brown

Jeff, I tried the kicking in the head thing this morning. Damn dog hadn't been fed yet, so now I only have one leg. Where can I get an few extras, for future reference. LOL


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## Emilio Rodriguez

Connie Sutherland said:


> Do you have that phrase saved somewhere to copy and paste? It's getting old.


I don't have it saved but it did stick in my head. What I meant by that is simply that it's not difficult to provide the right environment for a dog. Environmental factors that would have a serious negative affect on a dog's temperament have to be pretty drastic. Complete lack of socialization, putting the pup in a situation where an aggressive dog will hurt it, allowing a dominant pup to run the household without setting boundaries etc. Past those things that we as knowledgeable dog owners can navigate around it's kinda hard to ruin a good dog.


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## Guest

I don't understand these so-called "genes" or what an "environment" is. Back in my day, man had a relationship with dog. We didn't train, per se, but we wore folksy hats and cloaks and told grim tales around ancient stone walls. Occasionally our dogs would attack tourists, and I would stoically reply: "See?" 

They seemed to summarily accept that explanation and return home with tales of the folksy rustic man-dog telekinesis.

I just take the hardest most dominant dog and breed them. Why make things complicated?

Of course, they ain't for sport homes. In fact, what are these so-called "sports"? I am just a simple man who does rustic shit.


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## Emilio Rodriguez

Way to put things in perspective. Then again, did you have ball on a string in those days, or was it just chair on a string?


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## Guest

If you're referring to my profile picture, that is a child's toy and evidence. This was after a we conducted an area search for contraband recreational instruments..which were outlawed for a time under Karel VI.

And no we did not use chairs as rewards...but sometimes as punishment.


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## Emilio Rodriguez

Yikes! Hope they were plastic.


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## Guest

Not everyone has the stomach for ye olde skool. :-({|=

Stillgestanden!


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## Daryl Ehret

_"I just take the hardest most dominant dog and breed them. Why make things complicated?"_

Even if it wouldn't solve all the issues of the breed, that could solve alot of them. Keeping the pet market out of it, but then backfiring, making a clear target for BSL.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Dwyras, I have no answers for the missing leg thing. I guess you are just really really slow, cause I really really doubt your dog is bad enough to eat your leg.

However, if you ever have an urge to have him attack whoever named you, feel free to give in to this urge. LOL


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## Don Turnipseed

After reading this thread I decided to see what would happen if I put the last 12 wk old of a litter in with some 7 mo old females. After the beat down I am not sure the 7 mo olds will ever be the same,


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## Guest

Daryl Ehret said:


> _"I just take the hardest most dominant dog and breed them. Why make things complicated?"_
> 
> Even if it wouldn't solve all the issues of the breed, that could solve alot of them. Keeping the pet market out of it, but then backfiring, making a clear target for BSL.


I forgot anti-social....and bone.

-Hard
-Dominant
-Bone
-Anti-social.

3.5 inch PVC is my standard for leg girth. 

I also like to see several still-borns in the litter (from violent pre-natal fights) so I know there was competition in the womb for placental resources.

I also like to civilly agitate the females abdomen. I'll try to get some video of this.

Like I said, these ain't sport dogs.


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## Daryl Ehret

Is there a license for one of those?


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## Dwyras Brown

Jeff, it was my grandmother and she's dead. I have brothers and sisters with worse names. As far as the dog, I think he was anticipating it and I have slowed down a little.


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## Steve Burger

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,)
> 
> Uh where did this go wrong ??? Where is that Hoffman chicks research to be found ??? I couldn't find it on the net. (like I had a chance)
> 
> I have said for a long time genetics is about 40% of the total equation, I can see less as well. I have had a couple dogs over the years that did not have "the genetics" but did the work just fine.
> 
> Everytime I think I am getting a handle on how this works, some stupid anomalie shows up and gets me to thinking I know **** all again.
> 
> Really want to read this thesis.


I have not been here much in the past two weeks. Taking care of a litter of little terrorists. I did go to the club the other day and had a short conversation to try to clarify a few things. I will also try to get a link to the thesis if I can. 

To answer a few questions. They were not predominately working GSD's, there was a much higher percentage of show line GSD's. The research was done in Australia. They went to a range of homes. The comparisons were drawn on whether they met the characteristics based on a variety of tests at 7 weeks, 5 months and18 months. This was done to determine the validity of the tests alone. It did not take into account input from the breeders. 250 GSD puppies were followed over about a 2 year period of time. She did say that at 5 months there was a much higher likelihood of the characteristics carrying over to the adult dog. 

Again this was testing the validity of brief tests conducted, not of a breeders impressions. She felt that the overall impression of an informed breeder following the puppies over the course of their initial upbringing should carry much more weight than doing a brief test such as the Volhard test.


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## Mike Di Rago

*Emilio,*

I knew I had kept this article on the percentage/ratio genetics and environment. Hope this helps.
*Cunningham (1991) in his study of horses found that only by using Timeform data, and measuring groups of half brothers and half sisters could good estimates of performance be determined. His data shows that performance for speed is about 35% heritable. In other words only about 35% of all the variation that is observed in track performance is controlled by heritable factors, the remaining 65% are attributable to other influences, such as training, management and nutrition. Cunningham's work while limited to horses provides a good basis for understanding how much breeders can attribute to the genetics and the pedigrees.*

Mike


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## Daryl Ehret

Daryl Ehret said:


> I had once believed that roughly 1/3 genetics, 1/3 early development, and 1/3 training was responsible for the end result. But now, I really believe it can flexibly vary in each regard. Some offspring are more truly representative of their parents genetics than others, some producers being more prepotent in producing themselves into their young. Some littermates will share more in common than others, and so on.
> 
> Now, I believe it to be more of a "canalization" process, _each step along the way_ can be of great overall importance for maximizing your results. My job as a breeder, is to begin with genetics, in regard to family history and the breeding pair themselves, and follows with a portion of early development. It can be made the most of, or screwed up from that point on.
> 
> But also, having the right dog for you, your personal training style and every day lifestyle, and the work you intend to do with the dog is certainly going to matter when the leash is handed over. Each step along the way can better or worsen the potential result. _The right dog for the right handler for the right job in with the right training regimen in the right place at the right time is 600% or better!_


I'm quoting myself on this, because it was so far back in the thread. I decided to illustrate what I meant with a visual.


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## Daryl Ehret

~Winifred Gallagher


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## Brigita Brinac

_"Unless the breeder was local and I could come over periodically to see how they're coming along, I'd probably trust the breeder to pick the one most ideally suited as they see the pups day in and day out. Good breeders want it to be a good match for what your goals are, after all. And if you don't trust the breeder, maybe you should get a different breeder..."_

****I agree. I can't speak for every breeder but I spend 24/7 w/my pups until they are shipped--18 of those are 'waking hours'....handling, imprinting, transporting, assessing etc...right from birth...there is no way that an 'occasional' visit for a couple hours from a client is going to be anywhere equal to this...nor reflective.

Puppies after a certain age develop as their own pace....they could also be 'played out' and tired when the client comes to visit as they've been up since 6 am (had this happen to me more than once)....so the strongest pup may be sleeping in the corner while the edgy/sharper 'high maintenance' pup will look like a star.....JMO.


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## Brigita Brinac

Bob Scott said:


> I want a pup that shows some form of natural retrieve. As one said, it doesn't have to bring the object back but that is a huge bonus.
> To many have a false idea about the pain test (squeeze between the puppy's toes).
> It's not about how much pain the pup can tolerate. It's all about the pup's recovery. You don't want a pup that sulks away or shows avoidance when yo let it go.
> If someone expierienced goes with you, trust him!
> A good breeder would/shoud know pretty much what pup has what traits.



***Hey Bob..how r ya??? As usual I agree with you but here I would say 99% lol  I actually like to see possessiveness...so really I don't care if a pup brings it back or turns towards me...In Ring possessiveness is a treasured trait. I can always train them to 'bring it back'...after all it's an OB exercise...but that possessiveness might save my object in the object guard in Ring...just as food possession/aggression is not necessarily a 'bad thing'....as many pups or young dogs are started in Guard of an Object (Ringsports) with food....I think it may come down to WHAT program one plans on doing.??? Also can you imagine...if every client put puppies through 'pain' to see how they recover (you've got to wonder about a breeder who would allow this!!!???? I think this is where one has to do their research and select their breeder and finally trust the breeder...I agree that it's the RECOVERY that is vital...


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## Brigita Brinac

Steve Burger said:


> I wanted to follow up on the discussion I had with Dr. Gabi Hoffman. Her Doctoral thesis research followed 250 GSD puppies (at least that is what I think she said). Puppies were tested at 7 weeks, 5 months and 18 months. The conclusion was there was no reliable testing at 7 weeks that could determine adult behavior at 18 months. She did say that at 5 months there was a bit of reliability. She said the most you could hope for was to maybe eliminate a few undesirable traits, but even so this was not reliable. She said the best you could hope for is having the impressions of the breeder. According to her it's still somewhat of a crapshoot.


Have to disagree. Did her thesis account for breed differences or the amount of time a breeder spends w/pups ie., are they born and raised in a kennel or in the house?...how much time does the breeder spend w/the pups 1:1?...Because all my assessments from birth to the 8th week have been pretty uniform and reliable. IOW, what I said they were like at 7 wks is exactly what they've turned out like at adults: 18 mos, 2 yrs, 5 yrs etc...

Could it be (for discussion sake) that the thesis DID NOT take into account the time and attention that the individual breeders paid their pups? For example: if one breeder whelps and raises their pups in a kennel w/negligible attention/enrichement...and another (same breed) goes the extra mile...of course the assessments are not going to be reliable...nor are the results when these pups are adults....just wondering if her thesis considered other factors...??

Anyways not trying to be confrontational...just really interested in other aspects of her thesis.


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## Bob Scott

Hey Brigita!
Doing great here!
I do understand that "possessiveness" but that willingness to fetch sure makes a dog tons easier to train. 
I've never done any of the "object guard" training. My older GSD has tons of natural retrieve but I don't see him letting anyone take something that belongs to him without my permission.
Errrrrr...... Is the decoy in ring allowed to throw a ball to distract the dog?  :-$  ;-)


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## Bob Scott

Brigita Brinac said:


> Have to disagree. Did her thesis account for breed differences or the amount of time a breeder spends w/pups ie., are they born and raised in a kennel or in the house?...how much time does the breeder spend w/the pups 1:1?...Because all my assessments from birth to the 8th week have been pretty uniform and reliable. IOW, what I said they were like at 7 wks is exactly what they've turned out like at adults: 18 mos, 2 yrs, 5 yrs etc...
> 
> Could it be (for discussion sake) that the thesis DID NOT take into account the time and attention that the individual breeders paid their pups? For example: if one breeder whelps and raises their pups in a kennel w/negligible attention/enrichement...and another (same breed) goes the extra mile...of course the assessments are not going to be reliable...nor are the results when these pups are adults....just wondering if her thesis considered other factors...??
> 
> Anyways not trying to be confrontational...just really interested in other aspects of her thesis.


Although I've never bred or raised a litte of GSDs/Mals/etc I've not found a great deal of change between pups I've tested (for me or others) from 6-7 wks to adult. 
Changes I have seen could usually be attributed to how they were raised. 
What I saw in my own two GSDs at 5-6 wks is pretty much what I have as adults. 
I've seen more uniformity in littes of working terriers then in working GSDs. I think a lot of serious breeders of working terriers seemed more willing to cull in one form or another.


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## Brigita Brinac

Bob Scott said:


> Although I've never bred or raised a litte of GSDs/Mals/etc I've not found a great deal of change between pups I've tested (for me or others) from 6-7 wks to adult.
> Changes I have seen could usually be attributed to how they were raised.
> What I saw in my own two GSDs at 5-6 wks is pretty much what I have as adults.
> I've seen more uniformity in littes of working terriers then in working GSDs. I think a lot of serious breeders of working terriers seemed more willing to cull in one form or another.


I think many like to believe that genetics are the be all and end all...kind of releases them of their responsibilities/accountability in this equation....Environment plays a HUGE role in the outcome....The fact your GSD's changed little from puppyhood to adult is not surprising as they had an owner who was INFORMED. Further testifying to the importance environment plays in the outcome! 

Ahhhh...yes CULLING....anybody want to pick up the thread on this one?


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## Don Turnipseed

I do believe you can defintlely see what a pup "has the potential of being" early on. What is being seen is genetics at this age. A solid pup is a solid pup just as a POS is a POS. It would take a horendous bad environment to ruin a solid pup in an 8 week period since the eyes aren't open for 2 weeks and they can't get around in their environment until four weeks roughly. Contant handling benfits the POS pup more than it ever will a solid pup. The environment has a more profound effect on the POS pup more so than it wever will a solid pup. Constant handling merely makes the POS pups appear to be more solid than they are but, this is why most dogs have to be conditioned to different decoys, different helpers etc, etc. They were never solid to start with and should have been culled. If you can't buy that, ask yourself why the good dogs can move from one decoy to another, one field to another without falling apart. Breeders make up this fantasy world that they are changing the pups basic nature when all they are doing is conditioning the pup to being handled. Why? They haven't got the stones to cull POS dogs. How many of you have dogs that you have to worry about new locations and decoys with. You can thank the breeders that think they can change a pups basic nature by handling and kissyfacing them as pups. Hows that for starters B?


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## Brigita Brinac

Don Turnipseed said:


> I do believe you can defintlely see what a pup "has the potential of being" early on. What is being seen is genetics at this age.
> 
> *******I agree.*
> 
> A solid pup is a solid pup just as a POS is a POS. It would take a horendous bad environment to ruin a solid pup in an 8 week period since the eyes aren't open for 2 weeks and they can't get around in their environment until four weeks roughly.
> 
> *****Just wondering how many litters you've produced and raised....and what breed...because my pups typically are fighting, humping, and guarding their food and/or possessions like toys by 3 wks.
> *
> Contant handling benfits the POS pup more than it ever will a solid pup. The environment has a more profound effect on the POS pup more so than it wever will a solid pup.
> 
> ****I disagree. I think an enrichment environment benefits both. ie., do you think that if you took a STRONG pup and deprived it of environmental socialization/exposure....it would nevertheless be just as strong as if it would have if it had the enrichment? ie., if a human child is brilliant/prodigy and one doesn't provide the enrichment this child needs/deserves...the child will be just as brilliant without the extra enrichment (simply because he/she is genetically superior??...I don't think so.---just for understanding and discussion sake....
> *
> Constant handling merely makes the POS pups appear to be more solid than they are but, this is why most dogs have to be conditioned to different decoys, different helpers etc, etc. They were never solid to start with and should have been culled.
> 
> ****I disagree. They also say that the dog that overcomes adversity and keeps bouncing back is stronger than the dog which seemed genetically superior from the start. Afterall, they've learned and applied survival skills...*
> 
> If you can't buy that, ask yourself why the good dogs can move from one decoy to another, one field to another without falling apart.
> 
> ****It's not just about genetics....it's a multi-factorial issue...it has much to do about excellent training and exposure....honestly what yahoo would only ever work on ONE decoy or ONE field and then claim that their dog can take anything???!
> *
> Breeders make up this fantasy world that they are changing the pups basic nature when all they are doing is conditioning the pup to being handled. Why?
> *
> ***are you generalizing....because I don't know of any decent breeder who says that they are changing the basic nature or genetics of their dogs through handling/imprinting etc....*
> 
> They haven't got the stones to cull POS dogs.
> 
> ****I agree. Now what criteria do you use to evaluate a 'POS' dog????*
> 
> How many of you have dogs that you have to worry about new locations and decoys with. You can thank the breeders that think they can change a pups basic nature by handling and kissyfacing them as pups.
> 
> ****No I don't think so....when I think back on all the people I've known over the last 30 yrs who worry about this....the breeders did nothing...they just wanted to sell/market/ and get paid.*
> 
> Hows that for starters B?
> 
> ****I don't know...you tell me.
> *


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## Don Turnipseed

*"****Just wondering how many litters you've produced and raised....and what breed...because my pups typically are fighting, humping, and guarding their food and/or possessions like toys by 3 wks."

Probably in the neighborhood of 130+ litters. How about you? Airedale terriers.


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## Brigita Brinac

Don Turnipseed said:


> *"****Just wondering how many litters you've produced and raised....and what breed...because my pups typically are fighting, humping, and guarding their food and/or possessions like toys by 3 wks."
> 
> Probably in the neighborhood of 130+ litters. How about you? Airedale terriers.


Not as many as you.  I'm not a quantity producer....strictly quality....1-2/yr. For me to produce as many litters as you at my rate...I'd have to have been breeding 65 years--so I guess that would make me at least 85-90 yrs old....not! What programs have your pups gone to? Police? ScH? Ring? PP? Pet? Show? I suppose it must be a breed difference....

Looking forward to your opinions to my other questions...


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## Don Turnipseed

National Master fur dog, service dog for the blind, numerous state cert. therapy dogs, specialty is dangerous game like hogs, bears and lions. Water retrieving and birdwork, obedience titles, UD titles, set the highest standard at the nationals they have had in their 22 year history by a big margin, and to date they are in 4 books. One has been worked in protectionm and was doing well but ended up being a service dog for the blind because the trainer had to get rid of all his dogs.
All dogs are born outside year around. There are five packs in separate yards and all pups are raised with sibs, aunts mother and father. Don't handle them till they are on their feet and coming out to inspect their new environment. Got to go watch Desparate Housewives. be back shortly.


----------



## Brigita Brinac

Don Turnipseed said:


> National Master fur dog,
> 
> *******Please forgive my lack of knowledge in some of these programs...so if you could explain what 'master fur dog' is...I'd appreciate it...always willing and ready to learn!
> *
> service dog for the blind,
> 
> ****honestly, most working mals have too much drive to be service dogs for the blind...*
> 
> numerous state cert. therapy dogs,
> 
> *****OK...well that's pretty common....therapy certifications are by no means a criteria for breed worthy dogs....I've pretty much seen countless individual from many breeds that can certify as a therapy dog. Don't get me wrong....it's about temperament and sociability and tolerance...but has nothing to do with workability or drive...It's like saying that a CGC certified dog is worthy of breeding... or one that has its CD....I don't think so.
> *
> specialty is dangerous game like hogs, bears and lions.
> 
> *****what exactly does this mean? What do they do or what are they trained to do?*
> 
> Water retrieving and birdwork, obedience titles, UD titles, set the highest standard at the nationals they have had in their 22 year history by a big margin,
> 
> *****Congrats! But by UD are you talking about Utility Dog ie., OB?*
> 
> and to date they are in 4 books. One has been worked in protection and was doing well but ended up being a service dog for the blind because the trainer had to get rid of all his dogs.
> 
> ****I totally get that...I've had picks that I know could have gone all the way in the right environment, training, opportunity...but unfortunately...personal circumstances many times dictate where the dog ends up or what the dog ends up doing...that's totally out of your control....*
> 
> All dogs are born outside year around. There are five packs in separate yards and all pups are raised with sibs, aunts mother and father.
> 
> ****well that's fine...but not all dogs will spend their life outdoors....people like to have their dogs living with them in the house....also if you had weather 30-50 below in the winter...doubt any of your pups would survive...it's all relative isn't it.???
> *
> Don't handle them till they are on their feet and coming out to inspect their new environment.
> 
> ****I guess my breed inspects and interacts with its environment a lot earlier than yours. Wow...I'm intrigued...I've had pups inspect their environment from day one using their noses....Another evaluation tool....Before they could hear, walk, or see....I could determine which pups were immediately aware of my or their dam walking into the whelping room....I've had pups walk across a whelping room at 5 days following their nose....
> 
> So you're not present when the bitch whelps? Or to cull if necessary because of a physical defect? You don't inspect them at birth in order to determine which one/s is abnormal or being ignored by the bitch? You're not there to determine if the bitch needs help or a C-section?* * Because all of this involves 'handling' to an extent....*
> 
> *You don't handle them to clip their nails as it's hard on the bitch when they nurse? I've had 4 wk old pups lacerate a bitch's teat while pushing, shoving, and fighting....so badly that every time they nursed I had to hold my hand over it as it couldn't be bandaged....I had to do this many times a day and keep it clean to avoid infection until it closed up and somewhat healed...this meant handling.*..*.I think you and I are in different worlds as we deal with different breeds.
> *
> Got to go watch Desparate Housewives. be back shortly.
> 
> ****Good for you....you should try DEXTER! *


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## Don Turnipseed

Brigita, I simply gave my opinion on a phase of raising pups and answered your subsequent questions as it relates to my observations. I have to commend you on the high quality of your pups. I went out and look at a litter of 3 week olds I have and none will guard their toys yet. They were all asleep!. They are just beginning to walk though. I then went to a litter that just hit the ground yesterday. I was somewhat relieved that they all seemed to know where mom was right away but never thought it extraordinary. I have never had one that could walk across a whelping room the first day for any reason. You must have some very special dogs. None the less. I still don't believe that constant handling has a direct outcome on solid dogs.....just the weaker ones. Everything has a more profound effect on the weak whether it is a good influence or a bad one. Same with people.


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## Don Turnipseed

"***I guess my breed inspects and interacts with its environment a lot earlier than yours. Wow...I'm intrigued...I've had pups inspect their environment from day one using their noses....Another evaluation tool....Before they could hear, walk, or see....I could determine which pups were immediately aware of my or their dam walking into the whelping room....I've had pups walk across a whelping room at 5 days following their nose....

So you're not present when the bitch whelps? Or to cull if necessary because of a physical defect? You don't inspect them at birth in order to determine which one/s is abnormal or being ignored by the bitch? You're not there to determine if the bitch needs help or a C-section? Because all of this involves 'handling' to an extent....

You don't handle them to clip their nails as it's hard on the bitch when they nurse? I've had 4 wk old pups lacerate a bitch's teat while pushing, shoving, and fighting....so badly that every time they nursed I had to hold my hand over it as it couldn't be bandaged....I had to do this many times a day and keep it clean to avoid infection until it closed up and somewhat healed...this meant handling....I think you and I are in different worlds as we deal with different breeds."

Canines been having pups for centuries with no help Brigita. If they suddenly lost the ability to do so they aren't doing the breeds they belong to much good as I see it. I count them when they are born and again when they come out of the whelping box. They seem achieve quite well without my constant interference. I have never clipped a dogs nails in my life actually. Do you really start that for nursing?

"I think you and I are in different worlds as we deal with different breeds."
Probably but it has nothing to do with different breeds.


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## Don Turnipseed

Brigita Brinac said:


> Not as many as you.  I'm not a quantity producer....strictly quality....1-2/yr. For me to produce as many litters as you at my rate...I'd have to have been breeding 65 years--so I guess that would make me at least 85-90 yrs old....not! What programs have your pups gone to? Police? ScH? Ring? PP? Pet? Show? I suppose it must be a breed difference....
> 
> Looking forward to your opinions to my other questions...


First off Brigita, I must apologise for not doing this all in one post but with 30 dogs out there it is difficult to have the time with no interuptions. I do have to wonder though, if quality is determined by the lack of quantity, why would you ever breed two litters in the same year? One would obviously produce superior pups.
As for looking forward to my opinions to your other questions??? I have no opinions. You have one, possibly two litters a year and you raise them all the same way because for you, it is the right way. I also assume because of the question as to how many litters I have, you want to see have to base my opininions on. I have raised pups in the house next to my recliner with constant handling for the first few years and saw too many draw backs. I have raised them in open yards, I have raised them in kennels. I have varied the handling from little to a lot and through a wide range of ages. This was possible for me because I have had more than a litter a year. I had enough litters and pups for a comparitive study so I can have an opinion based on more than one method. In the end, I find the dogs to be most sound when raised as dogs, by dogs. There is a catch, to excell at many things that require heavy training, they have to be out of here by 6 to 8 weeks. Here is a picture of one of the yards and this environment affords the pups ample stimulation










I do realise we have different criteria. You want your dogs to excell in one thing. I want mine to excell in many things. What I look for is "Natural Instict and high drive", which they have. Since they already have what I want, the only thing I look at to determine the quality of the pup is the confidence level. All else is a moot point to me. It is this confidence level that determines which dogs can walk into a field trial or new situation for the first time with no adverse effect. To me, that is a solid dog. The less confident dogs are the ones that need to be conditioned to new fields and new helpers to function at an acceptable level. This is also where I have come to realise how much more impact the environment has on the less confident as opposed to the solid dogs. I have had access to a lot of pups. Although I have no control over the pups environment when they leave here, I can pick the best suited for competition at about 4 weeks. Possibly because the dogs are not random bred. Here is a pedigree I put together to study for a possible breeding. Wyatt is a 10 th generation pup, Electra is a 9th I believe. Since Electra is off of a full bro/sis cross and Wyatts mom is also there sister, I am leaning towards Odin to eliminate the mass bro/sis I would have breeding to Wyatt. At any rate, I can tell you with a fair amount of certainty, what the pups can and can't do provided they are in the right environment.


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