# Looking for a "Sport"



## Michael West (Jun 3, 2008)

Hey there,

Well im new to SC and kinda new to the states again. I am looking for a dog sport that is based off of reality as far as bite work goes, one where you do not have to adjust training methods from the sport to working with a police dog or protection dog.


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## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

*cough* Mondioring *cough*


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## Guest (Jun 9, 2008)

General question:

When people want a sport to mimic the real world, why even bother proprietary aspects of ANY sport?

There's no reason one couldn't bring a puppy to adulthood and never bother with exercises unique to a given sport, right? (i.e. Schutzhund's particular brand of blind searching, the novel heeling done in across the board...).

So what part of the sport is attractive to you if you're concerned about real-world compatibility?


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Michael West said:


> I am looking for a dog sport that is based off of reality as far as bite work goes, one where you do not have to adjust training methods from the sport to working with a police dog or protection dog.


PSA http://www.psak9.org/

or 

APPDA http://www.appdak9.com/

Jerry and Jay Lyda from this board are very involved with APPDA. I'd love to try both of these sports but I'm lucky enough to have French Ring within 3 hours of me .. not 30 hours!


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

From its begining, Schutzhund was created as a German Shepherd breed testing venue. The changes it has taken reflect the world of training which is here today. Few folks farm or need farm or patrol dogs. Breed worthy dogs can be found within seconds thanks to the internet. People don't have to walk or ride miles to the next village to breed to a strong animal. 

There is nothing wrong with Schutzhund or the current testing areas which are used. Are they all "real deal?" No. When I put the BH on my Giant Schnauzer in 2000, we were required to do alot of control work, before the road/traffic aspects were given. No one heels through 3 columns of walkers, 8-10 deep. You might however need to work around crowds in a shopping center or other popular area. Heeling patterns are now more CRAZY than the testing techniques found in PSA. Tracking in Schutzhund is not the same as for law enforcement. If any department used footstep tracking to find the bad guy, the bad guy would be long gone. This is the reason the Canadian Mounted Police do air scenting/fast tracking and have better success in catching the bad guy than we do in the states. If there is current data to change that, please school me.

I have never been attacked by a hoola-hoop bandit. Never had someone come to the farm with bottles filled with rocks and said, "Give me your money." The protection work in Schutzhund is NOT the same as bite work in French Ring or PPD training. Far too many sport dogs are focused on the bite sleeve and would not bite any area that didn't contain a sleeve. Many sport dogs purchased by law enforcement departments come from Europe. And far too many get washed out in part because they have "game" and not street guts.

I see value in any for of K-9 training, so long as it provides a safe and controlled outlet for K-9 energy.


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## Michael West (Jun 3, 2008)

Steven Lepic said:


> General question:
> When people want a sport to mimic the real world, why even bother proprietary aspects of ANY sport


For the compition value.



Steven Lepic said:


> There's no reason one couldn't bring a puppy to adulthood and never bother with exercises unique to a given sport, right? (i.e. Schutzhund's particular brand of blind searching, the novel heeling done in across the board...).


Im not brining a puppy up or even have a personal dog so i really cant answer this.



Steven Lepic said:


> So what part of the sport is attractive to you if you're concerned about real-world compatibility?


Im attracted to the compition value, and no training is lost on what looks good vs what works good. I dont want to have to try and think back during training and remember which method applys to the sport and which method is tacticly sound and gets the job done better.


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## Michael West (Jun 3, 2008)

Jennifer Marshall said:


> *cough* Mondioring *cough*


I have heard of this a while ago but dont remember much about it, guess its time to do some research.


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## Michael West (Jun 3, 2008)

Geoff Empey said:


> PSA http://www.psak9.org/
> 
> or
> 
> ...


Jay contacted me earlyer, i need to get back to him this afternoon.


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## Guest (Jun 9, 2008)

> Im attracted to the compition value,


That answers that. ;-)


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## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

USMRA:
http://www.usmondioring.org

Google search on Mondioring: 
http://www.google.com/search?q=mond...ox&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7ADBR

Some vids:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6_Ra7Qp8ws
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G680GQQG8yE


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Of course, I have to agree that Mondio is the best choice, I would like to dispell the notion that a sport has anything to do with reality, or that a sport is even close to reality. Just not gonna happen....ever.


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## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

You know, for once I have to agree.  

No sport is ever going to be capable of truly encompasing everything in real life PPD or PSD or MWD work but with Mondio, IMO the environmental aspect alone is a good start.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Jennifer Marshall said:


> No sport is ever going to be capable of truly encompasing everything in real life PPD or PSD or MWD work but with Mondio, IMO the environmental aspect alone is a good start.


I agree with the environmental work in Mondio is a cool distraction and fantastic for keeping the dogs on their toes. But the lack of pressure on the dog from the decoy from stickwork really makes it more of a game for the dog. I've seen dogs who can't take the pressure from a stick barrage laided down by a good decoy go running back to their handler (momma) time and time again. If a dog can't take the physical and mental pressure from the decoy how could that equate to even touching on to a real life scenario? 

I'm not dissing Mondio but it is what it is, a watered down version of French and Belgian Ringsport. Not the be all and end all dogsport let alone the savior of dogsports. IMHO, YMMV.
I


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## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

If I had access to NVBK people and trials I'd be all over it. I plan to cross train MR and FR. 

I respect everyone's opinions and preferences towards/for a certain sport or venue. Your argument, to me, is just the ever present never ending spat between fans for different sports. 

Regarding the decoy work, either the dog is not strong enough or was never trained/worked to take the pressure which IMO is an oversight of trainer/handler.

I'm of a mind to train a dog for more than it will see in a trial. For me, the environmental stress and pressure of MR makes up for more "lax" decoys *in trial*, and in FR the decoy work makes up for the lack of environmental variety/stress.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Well the OP asked what sport was training closer to real life scenarios. To me it is neither MR, FR, SchH or BR. Not saying either that some aspects of all these sports can't cross over to real life. The more traditional euro PP sports like maybe Campagne FR and for sure KNPV for police type of work. As well as the new PSA and APPDA. Car jacking scenarios and multiple attackers gets pretty close to being prepared for real life IMHO. 

As for your comment that


Jennifer Marshall said:


> Your argument, to me, is just the ever present never ending spat between fans for different sports.


I'm a fan of all dog sports so I'm not looking for a spat or continuing one. I'm just pointing out that Decoys dressed up as bobbleheads wading through blow up doll kid beach toys is a far cry from training your dog for protecting you from a car jacking or the like. Which is what I understand that the OP was looking for, that is where I was coming from. I hope my comments don't come across with malice as that is not my intention. 

FWIW I'd still like to send my dog after bobbleheads in bite suits though. MR sounds like a lot of fun and I wish that there was a place to train or trial close to me.


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## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

Geoff no worries I wasn't getting snippy! Just stating a fact in response to your comment that MR is a watered down version of FR and/or BR. I just shrug and move on. Politics are not just an aspect of dog sports it is an aspect of life and thus far I've waded through enough of it surrounding a variety of different things I tend to just smile and nod 

It is always present and will never end, just a fact of life.

I do agree that there are aspects of PSA and APPDA and KNVP that are more geared towards real scenarios that PSDs should be/are trained for. But IMO there are still some bugs to work out/things that don't set well with me yet for me to move to those (PSA, APPDA)sports. I likely will after I get more involved in ringsports, though. And this is not to be taken as an attack on either sport or organization  I respect those that participate but for now it is not for me.

I didn't rush to recommend them because I have no experience with either PSA or APPDA. Had I direct experience I would likley have more of an opinion to voice and may have suggested those sports instead of MR. But for now I'm just a MR spaz and don't pass up an opportunity to draw someone's attention to the sport.

About the decoys being dressed up..  Men (or women) wearing Kiss masks or crazy halloween masks with strange hats and carrying odd objects are fun to watch without dogs involved. Add a bitesuit and some Mals to the mix you got yourself a party!


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Geoff Empey said:


> I agree with the environmental work in Mondio is a cool distraction and fantastic for keeping the dogs on their toes. But the lack of pressure on the dog from the decoy from stickwork really makes it more of a game for the dog. I've seen dogs who can't take the pressure from a stick barrage laided down by a good decoy go running back to their handler (momma) time and time again. If a dog can't take the physical and mental pressure from the decoy how could that equate to even touching on to a real life scenario?
> 
> I'm not dissing Mondio but it is what it is, a watered down version of French and Belgian Ringsport. Not the be all and end all dogsport let alone the savior of dogsports. IMHO, YMMV.
> I


Not to burst your bubble big guy but have you ever seen Belgian Ring? The stressors come from the environment not the decoy who stands there in a suit as padded as a sofa moving his leg or arm up and down. Ooh scary! I have seen many a dog run or held off by strong use of a MR accessory as well. A strong dog is a strong dog regardless of the sport. And a weak on will be weeded out in any of the ringsport programs.


Lisa


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Oh and until we get some decoys with real "cajones" who will strip off the suit and take a bite for real, I think it is a real stretch to call any sport preparation for the real world.

Lisa


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Lisa Maze said:


> Oh and until we get some decoys with real "cajones" who will strip off the suit and take a bite for real, I think it is a real stretch to call any sport preparation for the real world.
> 
> Lisa


And on that note Lisa, when are you going to run wild and get bit?! All K-9 sports are sports, doesn't matter what you call them. I'm keeping my cajones close to home and not sharing with any landsharks! [-X Cup, padding, full suit, stick, and the fear of failure can cause this white boy to FLY!!!!  Who says white men can jump? No cape needed........


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

Yeah, sport is sport and not real life, just like a tough PSD needs some training before entering a competition, not many criminals behave like for example the couragetest in SCH, where a person is running straight at the dog and screaming like mad. The difference is you can build a sportdog more by training, a good PSD needs stronger genetics to start with.

As far as sports that are more closer to real life I must say the Swedish biteworkprogram(video below) is probably one of the more suitabel, afterall the dogs are trained to bite with and without protection in the muzzle in different scenarios, but like KNPV its´s a national sport and not done in US, and that´s what you were looking for I guess. But of course good dogs for practical work can be found in any sport, even if some of the routines in sports hasn´t much to do with real life training.

http://www.lindjax.eu/Filmer/Lei-anns Ture SM 2001.wmv


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Lisa Maze said:


> Not to burst your bubble big guy but have you ever seen Belgian Ring? The stressors come from the environment not the decoy who stands there in a suit as padded as a sofa moving his leg or arm up and down. Ooh scary! I have seen many a dog run or held off by strong use of a MR accessory as well. A strong dog is a strong dog regardless of the sport. And a weak on will be weeded out in any of the ringsport programs.


I'm not sure where you are going Lisa, but yes I've seen Belgian Ring and most if not all of the protection sports out there Ring or otherwise. We use props in our protection training as well chairs, hoola hoops with bottles tied to them that the dog has to go through to get the bite etc etc. It still really has nothing to do with real life just sport training and more importantly fun for the handler and the dog. 

I totally agree that a strong dog is a strong dog no matter what type of pressure you throw at it. To me that is what the training is all about any ways. Just different means to the same type of end IMHO.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Lisa Maze said:


> Oh and until we get some decoys with real "cajones" who will strip off the suit and take a bite for real, I think it is a real stretch to call any sport preparation for the real world.


So all those PPD, MWD and PSDs on the street who have not had a "real" teeth to flesh bite are not real world dogs .. is that what you are saying? Just wondering out loud what you mean by this statement.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Geoff Empey said:


> So all those PPD, MWD and PSDs on the street who have not had a "real" teeth to flesh bite are not real world dogs .. is that what you are saying? Just wondering out loud what you mean by this statement.


And here's Geoff talking dirty again, teeth to the flesh! :twisted: When you take a live bite and teeth go to the bone, I think most bad guys will wiz all over the place. If the dog won't out very well they may pass out from the pain. [-o<


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> And here's Geoff talking dirty again, teeth to the flesh! :twisted: When you take a live bite and teeth go to the bone, I think most bad guys will wiz all over the place. If the dog won't out very well they may pass out from the pain. [-o<


Well you know what I mean, without ever having to use a PPD to protect your person or send your PSD onto a bad guy or send your WMD into a hole to flush out a hiding insurgent. All the training is a placebo to that point until push comes to shove. Then you better hope that the groundwork you've laid kicks in for the dog.


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Geoff Empey said:


> I'm not sure where you are going Lisa, but yes I've seen Belgian Ring and most if not all of the protection sports out there Ring or otherwise. We use props in our protection training as well chairs, hoola hoops with bottles tied to them that the dog has to go through to get the bite etc etc. It still really has nothing to do with real life just sport training and more importantly fun for the handler and the dog.
> 
> I totally agree that a strong dog is a strong dog no matter what type of pressure you throw at it. To me that is what the training is all about any ways. Just different means to the same type of end IMHO.


You said Mondioring was a watered down version of French and Belgian Ring. Other than a few "demo" videos of BR, I would say the amount of pressure on the dog is the same or less than MR. Neither BR or MR has the direct decoy oppostion or esquives that FR does. What do you find more challenging about BR? That the grips are judged? The Guard of Object with the muzzle?

At the last USMRA championships the decoy came in on the Guard of Object and literally beat the dog with the accessory. Two of the dogs bailed. I have seen FR stick work that looked like the guy was holding a limp noodle. 

I do think FR is more challenging than MR in several ways but I can tell you the first time my FR dog (who can go through any stick pressure and then some) saw the accessories, he did a search instead of a face attack. He was looking for a decoy who wasn't holding those crazy dog eating snakes.

At the moment I play MR but I have played (not just watched tapes of) FR and Schutzhund so I am not a fan of one over the other. Just trying to figure out why you think BR is more challenging than MR.

Lisa


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Geoff Empey said:


> So all those PPD, MWD and PSDs on the street who have not had a "real" teeth to flesh bite are not real world dogs .. is that what you are saying? Just wondering out loud what you mean by this statement.



No, if they are dual purpose dogs and have not bit for real, we have no way of knowing if they will or not until they do.

My point being, that every new sport that comes on the scene claims to be the "real thing". With a dog's talented nose, he can smell a hidden sleeve or suit so unless the decoys are out their taking bites in the flesh all sports fall short of the mark. 

We worked my boy on a hidden/kevlar suit in a surprise attack scenario at nine months old. He bit but his attitude showed that he thought he was biting for real for about 10 seconds until the decoy started working him. If I tried to work him again on Kevlar, he would know what was up as soon as he caught wind of the Kevlar material.

Oh and recently I did serve as a live bite in the MR defense of handler exercise. So does that mean my dog is a real working dog? Actually, I was not his first live bite so I guess I already know that answer.

Lisa


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Lisa Maze said:


> You said Mondioring was a watered down version of French and Belgian Ring. Other than a few "demo" videos of BR, I would say the amount of pressure on the dog is the same or less than MR. Neither BR or MR has the direct decoy oppostion or esquives that FR does. What do you find more challenging about BR? That the grips are judged? The Guard of Object with the muzzle?
> 
> At the moment I play MR but I have played (not just watched tapes of) FR and Schutzhund so I am not a fan of one over the other. Just trying to figure out why you think BR is more challenging than MR.
> 
> Lisa


My observations were more of the environmental aspects of BR i.e. Water crossings for attacks and retrieves, the both types of object guards muzzle and suit. I know it is close to MR in many aspects they will use branches and other accessories to put pressure on the dogs. 

So maybe I am wrong in saying that MR is a watered down version of BR. But will stand by what I said about FR. 

I still would love to trial and train MR one day. I do think it would be a blast for both me and the dog. Problem is up here the people that are supposed to have the organization for MR are not doing a thing (just a fancy website) and that is a shame.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Lisa Maze said:


> No, if they are dual purpose dogs and have not bit for real, we have no way of knowing if they will or not until they do.
> 
> My point being, that every new sport that comes on the scene claims to be the "real thing". With a dog's talented nose, he can smell a hidden sleeve or suit so unless the decoys are out their taking bites in the flesh all sports fall short of the mark.
> 
> Oh and recently I did serve as a live bite in the MR defense of handler exercise. So does that mean my dog is a real working dog? Actually, I was not his first live bite so I guess I already know that answer.


So he bit you on flesh and bone? You are a brave girl!! It is an interesting conversation for sure on all the "what if scenarios". Without ever being in a situation all we have is assumptions and speculation on what our dogs may or may not do.


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Geoff Empey said:


> So he bit you on flesh and bone? You are a brave girl!! It is an interesting conversation for sure on all the "what if scenarios". Without ever being in a situation all we have is assumptions and speculation on what our dogs may or may not do.


Technically, I think it was fat and bone. I have skinny little legs and the bruise wrapped almost halfway around my thigh. Makes me willing to say that other than Schutzhund, Mondioring is the best test of drive and temperament of the handler. Not only is the hit on the DoH hard (must be audible) but the variety of scenarios in which the hit takes place makes the liklihood of the handler being bitten much larger.

Just in case you wondered, I think Schutzhund is the hardest test for the handler because you have to get up early and go tracking.

Lisa


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Lisa Maze said:


> Just in case you wondered, I think Schutzhund is the hardest test for the handler because you have to get up early and go tracking.


And knowing some of my friends that do Schutzhund tracking they are sometimes hung over to compound on the misery! :-D LOL!


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

having done both MR and FR I believe MR is quite a bit more challenging.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: I'm not dissing Mondio but it is what it is, a watered down version of French and Belgian Ringsport. Not the be all and end all dogsport let alone the savior of dogsports. IMHO, YMMV.

This is ****ing hilarious, the guy gets a brevet, and has the whole thing figured out. Lisa is beating you bad enough, so I will let you be.

The point of all the sports is to let the cream rise to the top. There will always be that dog that makes you go DAMN ! and THAT dog, is what we should be striving to produce more of. There is always that dog that just does the routine and makes no mistakes, that is what we call a PODIUM dog. Each has it's place, but lets face it, sport just gives us a venue to see many dogs in one spot.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: I'm not dissing Mondio but it is what it is, a watered down version of French and Belgian Ringsport. Not the be all and end all dogsport let alone the savior of dogsports. IMHO, YMMV.
> 
> This is ****ing hilarious, the guy gets a brevet, and has the whole thing figured out. Lisa is beating you bad enough, so I will let you be.


Whatever .. :lol: 



Jeff Oehlsen said:


> The point of all the sports is to let the cream rise to the top. There will always be that dog that makes you go DAMN ! and THAT dog, is what we should be striving to produce more of. There is always that dog that just does the routine and makes no mistakes, that is what we call a PODIUM dog. Each has it's place, but lets face it, sport just gives us a venue to see many dogs in one spot.


Yes I agree with you, and that in the past was what it was. Face it all the good  dogs (Malinois) come from the same lines that included Eik, G'Bibber, Elgos and all those famous sport Mals from years past. 

Probably in 20-30 years hopefully we will be seeing some of our dogs mentioned in the same way from the time and work that we put into them and doing it with the right dog who can do the work/sport in the first place.


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## Dawn Buffunarda (Aug 2, 2008)

*Good Evening Everyone,*

*I have been involved with K9 units ( Law Enforcement) dog training for several years. I not only enjoyed training the dogs but, it was the people I got to meet and know. I no longer work in law enforcement and wanted to get into the dog sport of SchH to meet new people and starting training dogs again.*
*I went to the local SchH Club and watched them train and meant some of the members. I was not Impressed to say the least. It was nothing like training with Law Enforcement. The people were not very nice and NONE of them knew that much about a real working dog. One lady had a 17 month old Rot., that had never had any obedience training and yet was having the dog do bite work!!! There was not ONE dog there that could heal or do the long down.*

*I'm currently looking to buy a puppy to train for personal protection and do some of the K9 tracking ect.... that I used to enjoy. Where can I go in the new city I live in to train with some nice folks and good trainers/ handlers? And what should I ask a breeder for when looking for a puppy that can do real work not just bite a sleeve? Is that called a dual dog or what?????*
*Thanks,*
*Dawn*


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2008)

*



Is that called a dual dog or what?????

Click to expand...

**I thought you were involved in K9 units?????*


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## Dawn Buffunarda (Aug 2, 2008)

Steve,

Ya, I was involved with training dogs in the K9 units. I'm not and never was a Law Enforcement Officer. I was a Dispatcher and the Great Officer's I worked with allowed me to train with them.

My question was: What type of a pup should I tell breeders that I'm Interested in??? I'm assuming that I'm looking for a dual dog since I want to train a dog that does protection, not just sleeve work. I don't know any breeders in my area as I have just moved to the state that I live in. 

Since you Know so much more than I do about this, maybe you could HELP ME out with this question.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Dawn Buffunarda said:


> I'm assuming that I'm looking for a dual dog since I want to train a dog that does protection, not just sleeve work.


In most circles a "dual purpose" dog means it is trained for patrol work and detection work.

What's with the purple?


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

It's not uncommon to put very little OB on a dog just beginning grip work.


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## Dawn Buffunarda (Aug 2, 2008)

Konnie Hein said:


> In most circles a "dual purpose" dog means it is trained for patrol work and detection work.
> 
> What's with the purple?


 
*Konnie,*

*Thank you for explaining to me what a Dual dog really means.*

*I just love the color purple. That's it.*

*Have a Great day:razz: *


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Purple is a cool color. My daughter loves it too!

Me, I'm more of an orange person. :razz:


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