# Feeding raw with deer?



## Michelle Rivera (Feb 9, 2011)

I've been interested in feeding raw but have always felt that it's a little too much for my budget at the moment. A family friend is an at-home deer processor so I got the idea to ask if he could save me the scraps my dog. He said yes and it would be free! I don't know what the main cuts for feeding raw are and what "throw away" parts were best for feeding so I just told him to save me the bones for now. I don't even know what bones he has saved for me right now, for that matter. Any that I should stay away from, why?

What parts should I ask for?

Would hearts, liver, kidneys, etc... be okay to feed on a regular basis? Joints?

I'd still feed kibble but use the deer as an "extra something" for my guy. 


Again, I don't know meat cuts so I have no idea what to ask for, especially since it all has to be scraps. :-k


Thanks in advance.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

I get a lot of venison and elk during the season (now) from the butcher. If it's from hunters like mine, it can be a lot of bloody chuncks and some bone fragments from the hunters shooting up the deer and the processor having to throw out a lot of it. Many times it's bloody because it's not been hung and bled out timely and properly...sometimes the hunters don't do it at all. One time I got an entire deer because the hunter didn't even field dress it and brought it to the butcher a day later..tanted meat from not being dressed but, dogs didn't mind as it wasn't spoiled. So it might be anything from the typical scraps you would get for the butcher processing a goat or lamb or if the hunter shoots up the hindend and finally brings it down with a killshot, you might be getting almost 1/2 a deer. If you are running it through a meat grinder be sure and feel the pieces for bone shards carefully so it doesn't jam up the machine. I rarely get the organs as the hunters just leave those where they've dressed the deer out.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Michelle Rivera said:


> I've been interested in feeding raw but have always felt that it's a little too much for my budget at the moment. A family friend is an at-home deer processor so I got the idea to ask if he could save me the scraps my dog. He said yes and it would be free! *I don't know what the main cuts for feeding raw *are and what "throw away" parts were best for feeding so* I just told him to save me the bones for now. I don't even know what bones he has saved for me right now, for that matter.* Any that I should stay away from, why?
> 
> What parts should I ask for?
> 
> ...


Asking for bones, you will probably get recreational bones, I'd say.

Some people do give recreational bones to adult dogs; I don't, but it's really a matter of how the individual dog deals with them. A gnawing dog is probably fine, while a "break this thing OPEN!" dog might fracture a tooth. (There has been a huge Tufts bill in my immediate family for a root canal and crown for such a fracture on a two-year-old dog.)

Marrow bones, if you do decide to give recreational bones, can trigger diarrhea, but that's easily avoided by starting with some of the marrow removed at first.

Recreational bones are a whole other topic, though, and really have little to do with the actual raw diet.



As far as basing a raw diet on deer, I don't think you could without careful supplementing with calcium, any more than you could base a raw diet on cow. I could be wrong, but I think that only the ribs would be RMBs (bones that can be actually consumed and digested, like, say, chicken backs or chicken quarters, or rabbit parts, etc.), and they wouldn't be consumable for all size dogs.

"Scraps" probably means boneless meat. Deer bones probably mean recreational bones. Neither one can be the basis of a raw diet, but both can be added to a raw diet.

The calcium/phosphorus ratio (basically, the bone-to-meat ratio) is probably the most important factor in a raw diet, and the easiest way to ensure it is by feeding small critters like chickens. Huge variety can be provided in the added muscle meat, but that basic RMB is very important.

OTOH, using deer meat for some of the added muscle meat in a raw diet sounds fine to me.

I think the short answer is, big animals don't supply enough RMBs to be a regular diet. (Naturally, wolves would have great use for a deer they take down, but wolves are also consuming rodents and other small critters _in toto_, supplying themselves with calcium as well as semi-digested produce.)


Do you have any of the inexpensive hands-on beginner paperback books? The MacDonald book, third one here http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/13_12/features/Feeding-Raw-Diets_20143-1.html , is nicely presented and accessible, IMO.


PS
I don't really personally know a lot about a deer carcass, but I'm sure if it actually does feature RMBs, someone else here will know that. I can't picture anything on a deer that could possibly be RMBs except (maybe) ribs. 



Also, the Ca/P ratio is "over time." That is, if you were feeding adult dogs a balanced raw diet in general, then a boneless windfall of something like an occasional big ol' dead deer would be fine. (Growing puppies are different.)


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

PS
_
"I'd still feed kibble but use the deer as an "extra something" for my guy. "_


I don't recommend mixing kibble and raw. Many people do it, and of course it's your call, but when it causes a problem, the problem can be big.


You'll find detailed explanations in this Diet and Health section of why they shouldn't be in the gut at the same time; the search term _pathogens_ will probably bring up multiple threads.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Venison necks are a great staple RMB, slightly smaller than beef necks. I feed them, but only occasionally, because they are expensive. I feed raw, but never just one protein source, I usually rotate between chicken, turkey, beef, lamb & other assorteds. Also I feed organ meat and green tripe.


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## Melissa Thom (Jun 21, 2011)

susan tuck said:


> Venison necks are a great staple RMB, slightly smaller than beef necks. I feed them, but only occasionally, because they are expensive.


Here people tend to only eat the great cuts and grind the rest or just give it to the butcher. So sometimes you can get some great freebees. I'd take whatever he's willing to give.

Whole heads are a great rec item this close to Halloween. lol


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> Venison necks are a great staple RMB, slightly smaller than beef necks. I feed them, but only occasionally, because they are expensive. I feed raw, but never just one protein source, I usually rotate between chicken, turkey, beef, lamb & other assorteds. Also I feed organ meat and green tripe.


Oh, necks! I totally forgot necks. Yes, I've given necks, such as lamb neck, but no deer necks. No one ever offered me any. 

_
"I usually rotate between chicken, turkey, beef, lamb & other assorteds."_

I feed variety too; I think it's important. I rely heavily on poultry for the RMBs, but the added MM is very assorted.


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## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

I usually get hunter scraps and trim - and heads etc. I don't feed leg bones as the dogs dogs crack them too bad but feed the smaller bones (shoulder blades, backbones, ribs, heads, pelvis bones) I also get roadkill deer sometimes - last one was so fresh the coppers were still filling out the accident report. I will feed lungs, hearts, liver, kidneys and that but the intestines, pauch etc are kinda unwieldy to cut up so I usually dicard that. The dogs didn't get all the roadkill as I fed a fair bit to my hubby as it was a nice doe so I took my time skinning it out and cutting it up.


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

I hunt and process myself in the field, dog loves it all never had a problem.


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## Jane Jean (Sep 18, 2009)

Just make sure there are no parasites/deer disease in your area if you feed from the field. I personally won't feed deer bones as RMB's unless it is from a very young deer. I also won't feed freshly killed parts. I did feed a heart that was not frozen, but fridged(4 days old) and on of my dogs got very ill(both ends). 

Not sure if the heart played into it or the water from our pond that she was drinking, but I decided not to give them anything fresh. She was never diagnosed with anything particular, but I had to do a bland diet for a week to get her gut back on track. It was(is) the only time in the 5 yrs I've had her that she was ever sick.
I would rather freeze for a couple weeks before feeding. Any weight bearing bone can cause tooth damage or hard digestion. The older the deer is the denser the bone. Not worth it, IMO.


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## Lori Gallo (May 16, 2011)

I feed all the venison I can get...No weight bearing bones, but ribs and neck work for me. Heads as well and lots of trim. I always freeze it first and if there's trim with no bones I add egg with the shell to the mix. 

I did have a problem with stool eating after feeding venison for a few days in a row to one of my dogs. From then on I began feeding it alternating with chicken.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i'm always interested in the cost comparisons of buying raw versus dog food 

re: "I've been interested in feeding raw but have always felt that it's a little too much for my budget at the moment"

Q - what were the types of each that were u using to compare costs that made raw exceed your budget ?

i could give my cost comparisons, but my situation living in Japan probably wouldn't be useful to many of you

Q - any of you process raw using a dehydrator ? i just got a good one and if i ever get the time i will be trying it out for dog treat preps as well as my own beef jerky blend


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## Tanith Wheeler (Jun 5, 2009)

Again don't feed the leg bones - deer leg bones are proportionally very hard, if your dog will chew but not try to eat, that's fine but if they are even a moderate chewer it is a no no. Deer shoulder and neck I have fed with no issues.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I've gone the same way with lamb bones. No more beef bones, especially weight bearing bones, but I like lamb scapulas and necks. Weight bearing bones are too likely to either splinter or fracture teeth.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I've gone the same way with lamb bones. No more beef bones, especially weight bearing bones, but I like lamb scapulas and necks. Weight bearing bones are too likely to either splinter or fracture teeth.



One nice thing about lamb neck is its cheapness.


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## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

Being an avid hunter.. just got back from several days in the woods actually lol.. we process all our kills ourselves. We leave organs and entrails in the woods, we gut where the deer is killed as the terrain is usually kind of rough and the extra weight of the guts can make all the difference to hauling out a deer and getting it back to the truck.

Ribs, necks, and scapulas are what I feed as far as edible bone. The scrap meat depends on how much patience I have, how much other meat I have in the freezer, and how good or bad my shot was haha. Usually hindquarters and backstrap are all hunters really want, the rest(shoulders/neck) often gets made into jerky, sausage, etc. Some hunters don't want anything but the backstrap and a few hindquarter steaks or roasts and leaves a LOT of "scrap"

The usual "scrap" is the entire frame of the animal - the spine, ribcage, etc. and any meat that the bullet went through is "bloodshot" and not used.

Our deer (blacktail) are not as large bodied as mule deer or most white tail so we get less meat from our bucks, so depending on the species and the hunter you could end up with a LOT of scrap or very little. It is illegal to resale a wild game animal so all scrap that is available will vary hunter to hunter. I would take whatever you can get.

As far as age goes, I have never had a problem with any age of animal taken, being a girl I am only allowed the smaller/younger bucks in my hunting group I have to leave the monsters to the old veterans at camp  so most of mine are between 2-4 years old, some of the bucks taken by others are upwards of 6-9 years old, and the elk we take are usually in that age range as well.

I will occassionally score some organs from other hunters that wait to gut until they get back to camp, but I would only feed hearts, livers, and kidneys. Check the organs for disease/parasites (like liverflukes, heartworms)

I fed raw for years with venison and elk being the staple MM source and rabbit, turkey, chicken for RMBs. I had to switch back to kibble but I will give venison or elk every once in a while as the only meal for the day, usually with raw egg yolk+shell and veggie/fruit bits. I am working on getting everything together to raise my own rabbits and goats for raw but will continue to always give venison, elk, etc to add variety in the diet.

If at all possible have the butcher label the meat (hindquarters vs shoulders) as hindquarter will be meatier, the shoulders has more connective tissue that threads through the meat and makes it pretty useless as anything but jerky or dogfood.

Good luck, let us know what you get!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

The way you used deer in a raw diet sounds exactly right to me. JMHO!


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## Michelle Rivera (Feb 9, 2011)

Thank you for all the information so far everyone.

I'm going to write down everything and see exactly what I can get. I'm thinking I'll hold off on feeding anything and will freeze it until I see what and how much I get.

I suppose won't be giving him the leg bones then because he's a really aggressive chewer. 




Connie Sutherland said:


> Do you have any of the inexpensive hands-on beginner paperback books? The MacDonald book, third one here http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/13_12/features/Feeding-Raw-Diets_20143-1.html , is nicely presented and accessible, IMO.


It won't let me view the entire page since I'm not a paid member. If you can give me the title and author, I'll see if I can get my hands on it.



rick smith said:


> Q - what were the types of each that were u using to compare costs that made raw exceed your budget ?


I'm assuming the first question was directed at me (or partially), but now that you mention it I really should reevaluate the costs. When I originally did it, I was comparing it to a dry kibble: 35lbs at around $32 a bag. That lasted me a little under a month. I currently feed Merrick Wilderness blend: 30lbs at $45 a bag. That lasts me a little over half a month.

I don't remember what I used to estimate price on a raw diet but at the time I felt it was out of budget.


Anyone have any good articles/links for estimating a monthly/yearly cost for a balanced raw diet? I tried a search but didn't get quite what I was looking for.


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

FYI, keep in mind that kibble is dehydrated, so the cost can not be estimated on a lb to lb basis. a lb of dry kibble goes a longer way than a lb of raw. Best is to figure out exactly how much of each it takes to keep the dog in good condition, and go from there...


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

_" If you can give me the title and author, I'll see if I can get my hands on it."_



http://www.americandogtreats.com/raw-dog-food-book.asp

http://leerburg.com/970.htm


To estimate a raw diet cost, you first have to get the average cost to you of your RMBs. If you are interested, I would recommend getting a hands-on book like the MacDonald one and then looking around for RMB sources.

It's true that there is a lot more to the diet than RMBs, but that per-pound cost is going to drive your total cost more than any other item (except, of course, the total poundage/size of the dogs you are feeding).


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Anna Kasho said:


> FYI, keep in mind that kibble is dehydrated, so the cost can not be estimated on a lb to lb basis. a lb of dry kibble goes a longer way than a lb of raw. Best is to figure out exactly how much of each it takes to keep the dog in good condition, and go from there...



That's very true. Even with a dry-matter conversion, raw versus kibble really has no meaningful pound-by-pound comparison. 
_
"Best is to figure out exactly how much of each it takes to keep the dog in good condition, and go from there..."_

For a rough (very rough) estimate in advance, you can take 2.5% of an adult dog's weight (this does not apply to growing puppies) and figure that for about the pounds of raw food the dog will need a day. Many dogs will fall under that (closer to 2%); over 2.5% is not common.

Some of that amount will be higher than the RMB cost and some will be lower. 

I've worked out over the years that if you use 3% instead, you won't be surprised in a bad way by the cost after you add in such items as fish oil and E (both of which I would give even with a kibble diet; there are many threads here on why dogs need long-chain Omega 3s added to modern diets).


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Feed nothing but venison for 5 months straight. dogs are still around.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Dogs are scavengers. Adult dogs can survive on a whole lot worse than an all-venison diet.


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## Shawndra Drury (Jun 28, 2010)

I feed deer/elk meat for some of their boneless meals (most boneless meals are beef heart since we raise natural beef) and most of their RMB's are chicken quarters and turkey necks. I'd love to get my paws on some duck necks and rabbit parts for more RMB variety.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Hi Shawndra: If you have an Oma's Pride distributor near you, you can order whole duck necks:
ttp://www.omaspride.com/catalog/other-poultry.html?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=32&category_id=9


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## Jane Jean (Sep 18, 2009)

I was getting whole dressed rabbit for $3 each, my dogs wouldn't eat them. Duck was a bit to fatty, though I never fed the necks. Are they much different than turkey necks? Turkey necks are my dogs favorite RMB's and right now they are expensive! Hope the Thanksgiving holiday will bring down the price.


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## Shawndra Drury (Jun 28, 2010)

Sweet, thats a really good bulk price. I will have to look into whether or not there is a distributor around here. 

They aren't that much different than turkey necks, just smaller obviously. Still big enough not to be too small for safe eating though.


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