# Taking the Weapon Hand



## Patrick Murray

I'd like to know your thoughts on this. I'd also like to know how to train it. 

However, I've never seen a dog target a weapon hand so I'm not sure how realistic it is. In theory it sounds good, but can and will a dog to it for real? 

In just thinking out loud my feeling is that if a dog came at me while I have a knife in my right hand I could take the bite on my left arm and then simply stab the dog in the neck. On the other hand, if I see the dog coming and even if the dog is trained to take the weapon hand, I can keep my weapon hand just out of reach while the dog has to settle for a bite elsewhere which would then allow me to, again, stab the dog. 

My thought is that it's good for the dog to take the weapon hand if it can do so easily. My concern is that the dog go in and engage even if it cannot quite get to the weapon hand. 

Perhpas the value of targeting the weapon hand would be most realized if the dog is going in hard and fast at a target that isn't necessarily expecting it. For example, if a man is firing a weapon and the dog comes in from another direction and goes in hard, biting the offending arm and bringing the man down. This might provide an opportunity for the handler to more safely move in, etc. 

Additionally, if the handler is actually fighting the weapon-holding man, it would be great if the handler's dog would deliver a devastating bite on the man's wrist or forearm that is holding the weapon. 

But again, I've never actually seen a dog do this. I'd sure like to see it and I'd like to know how to train, even if I never do so. And obviously I'd like to get some feedback on this topic. Thanks.


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## Kristen Cabe

Wasn't there a video of a police dog - a Mal I think - in training somewhere that kept going after his handler's hand when he went to draw his gun?? I can't remember where it was, but I do remember seeing it. So apparently, this dog was trained to target the weapon hand, but was going after his handler when his handler grabbed a weapon.


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## Bob Scott

I've got a gun in one hand, and a hair brush in the other. Does the dog know the difference? 
Disclaimer: I have had NO training in PSD or PPD. Just a thought!
Another disclaimer: I have had minimal training with a hair brush in the last few years also.    :wink:


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## Patrick Murray

Not to be a smart-ass (for once :mrgreen: ) but a really big, strong and bad man has you on the ground and you are doing everything possible to keep him from plunging his knife into your gut. Do you prefer that your dog to deliver a crushing bite to the bad guy's?

A) Thigh
B) Foot
C) empty handed arm
D) Wrist holding knife about to be plunged into your guy

Everybody's different, but I'm picking D. :wink:


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## Bob Scott

I'll have to defer to the real PPd/PSD trainers on this one. I'm afraid the big, strong, bad guy would have me stabbed before the dog got to him. :lol: :wink:


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## Greg Long

Honestly, I wouldnt worry too much about taking the weapon hand first.It can be done and trained for but from what I know(which isnt much)it requires much foundation work before it can be trained or relied on.
IMO the dog can be trained to tell the difference between a gun and a brush.


Most people are right handed,something to consider!

Greg


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## Patrick Murray

Well, like I said I've not seen a dog actually do this and so I'm wondering how well it actually works and how it would be trained. Maybe someone will come along and enlighten me. :idea:


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## Reinier Geel

Bite Targeting is a simple concept in police dog training circles; it just requires much training, and rehearsal. Having said this, I will also have to make a distinction here; most dogs that do this thing live, have the experience from prior engagements to fight the target as a whole in the field, so the dog will read his assailant and take him down accordingly, regardless of the target training. He will not necessarily go for the target trained area. The whole idea of target training is the same as in marshal arts where you get taught to strike in certain areas for effect. So we utilize this technique to familiarize the dog with frontal, rear and side targeting areas, by only allowing these areas for a bite in training. 

Specific targeting conditioning  when a dog is only taught and conditioned to bite the arm, he will in all likelihood continue to do this in practice. The idea of utilizing a whip to condition a dog to target the hand that has a weapon, came about when we were fighting riots, and the rioters built arm and leg guards from rain gutter pipes, by putting nails through them, and then working it down to 1 ½ inches, and then strapping it on with tube. So the dogs had nothing to bite that would not severely injure him, but the object in hand, a baton, or club or pipe. 

We took whips and nicked the dogs with it, until they could only wrestle with the object in the perps hand, by utilizing bite suites that were extra padded, and very big, giving the dog a zero bite hold on the body. The aim was to ready dogs for crowd control work and elevate their bite training beyond the norm, as we were faced with this new dilemma. It worked, the dogs got clever, and they figured out that ankles and toe bites were just as effective, as well as elbows to get the subjects to submit.


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## Greg Long

Reinier Geel said:


> Bite Targeting is a simple concept in police dog training circles; it just requires much training, and rehearsal. Having said this, I will also have to make a distinction here; most dogs that do this thing live, have the experience from prior engagements to fight the target as a whole in the field, so the dog will read his assailant and take him down accordingly, regardless of the target training. He will not necessarily go for the target trained area. The whole idea of target training is the same as in marshal arts where you get taught to strike in certain areas for effect. So we utilize this technique to familiarize the dog with frontal, rear and side targeting areas, by only allowing these areas for a bite in training.
> 
> Specific targeting conditioning  when a dog is only taught and conditioned to bite the arm, he will in all likelihood continue to do this in practice. The idea of utilizing a whip to condition a dog to target the hand that has a weapon, came about when we were fighting riots, and the rioters built arm and leg guards from rain gutter pipes, by putting nails through them, and then working it down to 1 ½ inches, and then strapping it on with tube. So the dogs had nothing to bite that would not severely injure him, but the object in hand, a baton, or club or pipe.
> 
> We took whips and nicked the dogs with it, until they could only wrestle with the object in the perps hand, by utilizing bite suites that were extra padded, and very big, giving the dog a zero bite hold on the body. The aim was to ready dogs for crowd control work and elevate their bite training beyond the norm, as we were faced with this new dilemma. It worked, the dogs got clever, and they figured out that ankles and toe bites were just as effective, as well as elbows to get the subjects to submit.


So were the dogs retargeting ?Or did they just bite and hold one of these targeted areas??

What you describe,the dog must think first right?And not just fly in and bite?I was wondering how these dogs approach the suspect when coming in for a bite.

Greg


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## Reinier Geel

Hi Greg, nice to see a lot of the old crowd here, no it is not specific, and each dog responds differently, the bulk of them however go for the weapon hand first, or will jump up on the perp to try and push him over, and then go for the ankles the head neck, buttocks and hands, as well as the shoes. The bigger dogs will get the item and wrestle it clear of the perp in training. And this was what we aimed for. I must admit, it is and was no full proof system either. Dogs dont fight well against gladiators with amour, and get hurt.

The point -We tried to get all the dogs to aim better and then attack, but instincts take over. We did have some success to a certain extent. Then we resorted to normal means of crowd control shotgun with rubber works far better. This technique was further exploited and we used it to frustrate dogs with that only want to bite arm and leg, and this is where it paid off, by not giving them the norm to bite on, legs and arms that is, they need to learn that anything is a target when being wrestled.

Yes they re-bite after they have disarmed the assailant, but some dogs dont care much for the punishment and head for a face or neck bite, even under the arm; in the arm pits, it got to a stage where it got too dangerous. The experiment proved that dogs taught to bite the target areas would transition faster, to soft tissue areas, would find more areas never contemplated before. With the effect that if someone wrestled with them they would not hesitate to bite in the face, the neck or inner leg, as it was part of training targeting with agitators lying on the floor fighting them off. Not always advisable, this could kill a person instantly, so there must be method in ones madness. So if the means does not justify the end then dont go there. This just proves that by altering training we may also alter the outcome. This method should not be taught to civilian dogs, we utilized it with police dogs. We had riot helmets on, and safety boots  they dont help much  and a specially made telly tubby suite  just so by the way.


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## Patrick Murray

Thanks for coming over and posting Reinier. I'm looking forward to getting your input on many topics.


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## Reinier Geel

Thanks for the invite, great site, great people, lets hope it stays that way.

Good choice of moderators as well, you are off to a good start for sure.


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## David Frost

Mr. Geel made some very good points. Targeting the gun hand can certainly be done. In my experience it works more often in training than it does in actual situations. Each actual bite is purely situational. Because of that, as long as the primary objective is met: the dog engages and stays engaged, then all is well. When you in that fight as long as that dog is biting something, he's helping.

DFrost


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I will have to stink this one up a bit, targeting the weapon hand is all good and oh sure, if you have time to play do it, but have any of you ever been bitten by a dog?????? Things really do shut down on just silly little bites, so if your dog bites really hard???? 

Take this test. You will need 1 rubber knife, a sweatshirt, first aid kit. 

Let a really hard hitting dog run about 20 yards and you target that guy right into your armpit, innerthigh, forearm, wrist, ankle, calf, tricep, and traps. Each and everytime the dog hits you at 35 MPH, try and get him with your rubber knife. Let me know how many times you got him. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:


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## David Frost

Jeff, I think I'll pass on your challenge. I'm old not stupid. Still having been around a lot of pretty good patrol and even some psychotic old sentry dogs in my day, it has happened. I've seen them shot, stabbed and even choked. It depends on the committment of the person being bitten at the time.

DFrost


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## Jose Alberto Reanto

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I will have to stink this one up a bit, targeting the weapon hand is all good and oh sure, if you have time to play do it, but have any of you ever been bitten by a dog?????? Things really do shut down on just silly little bites, so if your dog bites really hard????
> 
> Take this test. You will need 1 rubber knife, a sweatshirt, first aid kit.
> 
> Let a really hard hitting dog run about 20 yards and you target that guy right into your armpit, innerthigh, forearm, wrist, ankle, calf, tricep, and traps. Each and everytime the dog hits you at 35 MPH, try and get him with your rubber knife. Let me know how many times you got him. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:




Yes Jeff. I have an ugly left hand, a result of dog bite. I had also sent some to hospitals after my dogs caught them doing mischief. In fact, most dogs in our small group had figured well in defense of their owners. One just happened lately when a young mal (my breeding) saved his family from 3 armed men in a restaurant they own while full of other customers. The dog identified, disarmed and neutralized just the three, hurting them real bad with multiple lacerations as a result of dog's retargetting. Blood was on the floor. One has to be helped as was hurt the most and went to the police precinct without his pants on. There was nothing left after the dog was thru with him. 

Real training is not pleasant at all, but you wouldn't want it any other way.

Best regards...


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## Al Curbow

I keep thinking about the hairbrush in one hand and a weapon in the other comment, no one responded to that specific sentence.
AL


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## David Frost

<<<I keep thinking about the hairbrush in one hand and a weapon in the other comment, no one responded to that specific sentence.>>

I can't speak for sport, on the street however, my experience is; the dog is going to take the first thing he gets too.

DFrost


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## Reinier Geel

Jeff, in knife fighting you are taught not to stay on the x, but move the minute the dog is within striking distance  then he will keep going 35 miles before he realizes he missed you ha ha. Like David said, old not stupid  I have never trained without a suite, or at least a tug and scratch pants.but never the less, a good test when you have a lot of drunken buddies around who want to play Rambo with your dog.

On the other hand, I can tell you in all seriousness now, that agitators will get the dog with a knife, and that even hard biting dogs meet people that dont even flinch when they get bitten, I have seen dogs that just get picked up and have the life chocked out of them.they are not super animals.

Al, I dont think a dog is smart enough to tell the difference without having experience the one or the other ever before, -imo


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## Jose Alberto Reanto

I've seen dogs that may not take an offered arm or leg. The dog takes another body part and starts there. The moment the decoy makes a hostile move, the dog almost instantaneously proceeds to flank the decoy pulling hard while on the bite, making it difficult to hit him. Or like a coiled spring, the dog may grab another body part, then do its predatory headshake. The dog may end up working at the decoy's back, if decoy puts up a lot of frontal resistance. It's all so dangerously unpredictable making a decoy worried. One may see much of these movements in a multiple-attack workout.

Yet this is not at all new. Even Stephanitz described the cunning of Shepherd's dog in combat as an art of war of a superior kind, one that knows how to use every means at its disposal, and not one that rushes in to grab and hold as some races do. Training should bring all these qualities out in a dog.

My $0.02 worth...


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## Greg Long

The toughest dog I know or have worked with is a 9 year old Mal.When he bites your arm he will work back around behind you still biting the arm.It would be almost impossible to stab this dog while he is doing this or hit him for that matter.Sport people cringe when they hear stuff like that but I love it.Of course if this particular dog bit an unprotected arm he would probably break it.There are too many possibilities to say for sure.

Greg


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## Phil Dodson

I worked with a trainer who taught his dogs if they grabbed the (l) arm to swing you counterclockwise and clockwise the (R) arm, or maybe the opposite.


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## Jose Alberto Reanto

Phil Dodson said:


> I worked with a trainer who taught his dogs if they grabbed the (l) arm to swing you counterclockwise and clockwise the (R) arm, or maybe the opposite.


Perhaps that's done for good reasons. If one allows his dog be whacked by a decoy to show off courage of his dog, then he has just betrayed his dog. In a tight situation, nothing can be more chilling to a handler than that lingering doubt whether his dog could indeed sustain a real physical abuse. Honesty is always the best training aid.

Best regards...


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## Patrick Murray

> If one allows his dog be whacked by a decoy to show off courage of his dog, then he has just betrayed his dog.


Hey Al, a lot of sport people will tell you you're wrong. And even many PPD people will you that you're wrong. But for what it's worth I think you speak the truth. 

It makes sense to me that a dog would try to avoid getting hit in a fight. Wouldn't we all? It doesn't take a world-champion prize fighter to figure out that it's a good thing NOT to get hit in a fight, right? 

To me the ultimate PPD dog would be able recognize that a man with a club/knife/gun in his hand should be treated differently than a man who is not apparently wielding a weapon. One can have the toughest PPD dog that ever existed but all its toughness is going to be wasted if and when it rushes in, bites and then gets stabbed in the neck and dies...all in a five second period of time. That is why I am of the thought that a dog that can fight naturally and avoid taking blows by recognizing the real threat that a weapon poses is going to be of more value to its handler because it will survive longer giving the handler more time and more options. 

For the sake of learning...how would you teach the PPD dog to perform in this manner?


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## Jose Alberto Reanto

Patrick Murray said:


> Hey Al, *a lot of sport people will tell you you're wrong*. And even many PPD people will you that you're wrong. But for what it's worth I think you speak the truth.


The Shepherd's dog must be bred as a SERVICE DOG, trained as a SERVICE DOG, and JUDGED AS A SERVICE DOG. Remember?

I don't know with other PPD people. I need to conform our training with our needs. After all, we got our dogs for our intentions. We have to make sure of our safety and that of our dogs too, considering we have to put up 52 pieces of our currency to make a single dollar. 

With this training, me and my group finds it better to sleep well at nights and a little safer in walking the streets. That's all that matters.



> It makes sense to me that a dog would try to avoid getting hit in a fight. Wouldn't we all? It doesn't take a world-champion prize fighter to figure out that it's a good thing NOT to get hit in a fight, right?


It just seems logical to me too, especially that we are all aware that nature has equipped this creature with intelligence, cunning and predatory skills. I think it's much much better than having, let's say, a prize-fighter cling on to his opponent while being kicked, slapped, and spat at, then later declared the winner for taking the most blows. 



> To me the ultimate PPD dog would be able recognize that a man with a club/knife/gun in his hand should be treated differently than a man who is not apparently wielding a weapon. One can have the toughest PPD dog that ever existed but all its toughness is going to be wasted if and when it rushes in, bites and then gets stabbed in the neck and dies...all in a five second period of time. That is why I am of the thought that a dog that can fight naturally and avoid taking blows by recognizing the real threat that a weapon poses is going to be of more value to its handler because it will survive longer giving the handler more time and more options.


I agree and if training can bring out and hone what's supposed to be all natural in a dog, and not limit it to what a discipline demands or to only what is acceptable to most, then you unleash your friend's true potentials to your benefit. 



> For the sake of learning...how would you teach the PPD dog to perform in this manner?


I'd start with the proper dog. Introduce varied fighting scenarios and keep it real. The dog has to respect the arm or the leg that can hurt him. When the dog learns to neutralize his opponent, the dog's confidence shoots up, ready for a higher level of training.

Just my opinion.


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## Matt Hammond

This has been debated for years and it will continue to be debated for years to come.....In MY mind targeting the weapon hand is not needed nor realistic. Your dog needs to target period. When the \"bad guy\" gets bite in most cases he is not thinking about stabing your dog. If you have ever had a dog come up the leash on you or come in side the suit with you what was going thru your mind.....not stabbing the dog, it was most likely get this dog off of me. To achive a true street dog and one that is the hardest to get at are the leg biters. A leg dog can cripple a bad guy with one hit. I have seen it and been on the \"wrong\" end of it.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

It is funny you mention the leg bites. I have had so many people tell me they would just fall on the dog and kill it. RIGHT! I have had some close calls with dogs going to the inside of the pivot leg at the last minute. My sincerest advice is to just fall and not try to stay up. My leg was kinda wiggly after these things happened, and I went down everytime. If I had remained standing, or tried, I would have been toast.


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## Jose Alberto Reanto

Matt, I can't help wonder why with all those years of debate, no one has hooked up and worked it. For as long as the dog is not of sport breeding and not conditioned for a sporting bite, it's almost plain to see.

Observe that when a decoy runs away from an advancing dog, its target would most likely be the legs. Intelligent creatures... I'd say.

Just curious...


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## Patrick Murray

Welcome to the board Matt. And thanks for the input. 

Does anyone have video of a dog taking the weapon hand?


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## Phil Dodson

When I train with the concealed sleeve I try to put some type of article in the sleeve hand. However in real street bites over the years my teams have seldom if ever taken the weapons arm exclusively. A good K-9 takes what is available to him without hesitation. My partners have taken down subjects in several different parts of the body.


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## Jose Alberto Reanto

Well, there are bite workouts trained into Police service dogs that I'm aware of for quite a long time; arm-to-leg, leg-to-arm, arm-to-arm, etc. The retargetting happens when dog is subjected to discomforts by the loose arm or leg. This may give an idea of how to work it out.

Just a thought...


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## Phil Dodson

I have observed several of these exercises and even participated in a few and I don't disagree with you but from personal experience it doesn't always work the way you train for it. :wink:


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## Jose Alberto Reanto

Phil Dodson said:


> I have observed several of these exercises and even participated in a few and I don't disagree with you but from personal experience it doesn't always work the way you train for it. :wink:



Well, it's not bad, Phil. As long as the dog gives you the advantage to apprehend a criminal fast, safe with human rights or use of brute force issues avoided, then the purpose for the K9 is justified. 

For a civilian living in a country that does not allow its citizens to carry firearms, making the dog its only defense, the NEED propels a civilian handler to work his dog well. 

Best regards, Phil....


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## Matt Hammond

It just doesnt make a whole lot of sense to have a dog programed to only bite one thing ( the weapon hand) I agree with the poster saying a good PSD hits what is there. But a fleeing suspect likes to jump fences and on top of things if you have a arm dog that will only bite the arms you just lost a bite. I use to HATE leg dogs until I worked them and that has made me a beliver. You can not get away from them no matter how much you try and if you bed over to fight with one well you just exposed your face and that would be the next target.


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## Jose Alberto Reanto

Matt Hammond said:


> *It just doesnt make a whole lot of sense to have a dog programed to only bite one thing ( the weapon hand)* I agree with the poster saying a good PSD hits what is there. But a fleeing suspect likes to jump fences and on top of things if you have a arm dog that will only bite the arms you just lost a bite. I use to HATE leg dogs until I worked them and that has made me a beliver. You can not get away from them no matter how much you try and if you bed over to fight with one well you just exposed your face and that would be the next target.


Your absolutely right, Matt. Programming a dog to take a weaponed arm is same as programming a dog to take sleeves at all cost, too. Besides a good PPD dog is, in my opinion, should not be routined, but as you said, allowed to take any body part and not necessarilly what is offered. He knows where to deliver his devastating blow. Also, I want my dog to hang on there if it's enough to neutralize his opponent. 

Taking the weaponed arm may only be necessary if opponent puts up a nasty resistance againts the dog. Again, its purpose is to neutralize its opponent. It can happen as the will of self-preservation in humans is likewise strong.

Just my opinion...

Best regards...


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## Erik Berg

I saw a video a while ago from a swedish policedog that was send to a man armed with an axe in the right hand and a knife in the other. When the man saw the dog coming he took a swing at the dog with the axe, the dog took the arm with the axe and the man was taken to the ground and policeofficers rushed there and secured the supect. 

I´m pretty sure the dog took the arm that was moving and was closests to the dog and not trained to target the weaponhand, this way I think most policedogs are trained, take the first chance for a bite from the bodypart that is in reach or most of a threat to the dog. This time it went OK, and the dog wasn´t hurt, but sending a dog to an armed attacker is obvious very dangerous, whatever the trainingstyle you have learned the dog.

If a dog should take one bite and hold or transfer bite is also much depending on the situation or the dogs mentality, or what someone favours . A fleeing suspect or an unarmed suspect the bite and hold dog is propably the best thing, also less injury to the suspect.
Some policemen train their dogs to take a strong full bite and be able to hold that grip even under heavy pressure, but should be able to out the dog quick to redirect the dog if needed to another suspect.

Some train the dog to bite strong and full but not spending so much time on making the dog stay on the bite whatever happens. What I´ve heard will most dogs shift grips from where the pain comes, even if you learnt it in training to bite and hold under pressure.
The dog´s mentality also plays a part, dogs that are more serious and easily get very angry are more likely to shift bites naturally in a fight with a suspect, while a less serious dog with a high preydrive are more likely to just lock on and take the pain.

So in short, what type of dog that is best is more a question of personal preference and situations I guess. After all, policedogs are much more using their nose than bite in the work.


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