# Allergies



## Holly Huryn (Mar 12, 2008)

Our new dog, a yellow lab, came with allergies. She gets red ears and her gums are red (which the vet said is also due to the allergies). Right now she is on Hills Prescription Duck and Potato. But I'm thinking it's not working very well - although I've not seen her scratch at all. 
Anybody know a good allergy diet out there? Bagged or fresh.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

You could try Nutro Lamb and Rice. Not the best, but certainly not the worst and our lab had allergies and did well on it. 

It's tough since I would be trying to figure out just what it is she is allergic to. It may be environmental, so changing food may not be the answer.


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

you got a new dog?


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

A few of my DDB have shown slight intolerances (constant shedding, red/yeasty ears) to certain foods. I had to play around with it for a bit usually by first sticking with one brand and working through the different protein sources offered within that line. Eventually, I'd find the right balance. For your dog, it sounds like this might work. 

The "winners" sometimes were the least obvious choice so don't hesitate to poke around and try different things. You should notice a difference within about 3-6 weeks of changing foods. It takes a while sometimes to figure out it given how much time you need to wait things out.


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## Holly Huryn (Mar 12, 2008)

I was kind of wondering how they tell ( without thousands of dollars worth of tests) if it's food or environmental. I'm going to try to switch the protein, see if it helps.

@Daneil - the BOYS got a new dog!!


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Things don't sound so bad for your dog that I'd bother with tests just yet (if ever). I'd play around with the food for a while and see what you come up with. Sometimes, it comes down to treats that were being offered to the dog.


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## Gina Pasieka (Apr 25, 2010)

Allergies are a real pain. It is very difficult to do a true food elimination trial. You need to be diligent about not having the dog get anything else but the hypoallergenic diet for at least 8 weeks. That means no treats, table food, rawhides, and you should actually change to non-flavored heartworm preventative. Unfortunately, most allergies in dog are environmental or a combination of the two. Sometimes you can find a food allergen that if eliminated lowers the itch threshold for the dog which can be helpful. Good luck.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Holly Huryn said:


> Our new dog, a yellow lab, came with allergies. She gets red ears and her gums are red (which the vet said is also due to the allergies). Right now she is on Hills Prescription Duck and Potato. But I'm thinking it's not working very well - although I've not seen her scratch at all.
> Anybody know a good allergy diet out there? Bagged or fresh.


So I'm a little confused...can you describe in which way is it not working very well if she's not scratching? There's not really such a thing as a good "allergy" or "hypoallergenic" diet. Some dogs will react to certain proteins, regardless of how exotic. The basic principle behind a limited ingredient diet is one protein source (at lower levels) and one carb source. 

As Gina outlined, she'll need to be on a strict elimination diet for as long as 8-12 weeks before you can start challenging her system with previous foods. Food allergies are not uncommon, of course, but environmental allergies (called atopy) is even more common. Also be certain she's on a good flea preventative (Frontline, Advantage, Comfortis, etc) to rule out flea allergy. The intradermal skin test will help check for environmental allergies (these are usually done by a board certified dermatologist).


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## Holly Huryn (Mar 12, 2008)

Maren - I don't know that it's not working but I'm looking for sometthing better, maybe? While she is not scratching, her ears and gums are still red. I just want to try to eliminate that as well. We do not have fleas where I live, it's too cold. 
Is the intrradermal skin test worth getting?


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## Kevin Barrett (Dec 16, 2009)

I use call of the wild, Buffalo blend due to the allergy. My vet highly recommended it and it worked great for my dog.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Holly Huryn said:


> Maren - I don't know that it's not working but I'm looking for sometthing better, maybe? While she is not scratching, her ears and gums are still red. I just want to try to eliminate that as well. We do not have fleas where I live, it's too cold.
> Is the intrradermal skin test worth getting?


That's a reasonable concern. One issue with using some of the more holistic/natural/etc diets for a diet trial is that almost all of them use co-packers to make their foods. So as an example, Natural Balance or Wellness or whoever may have a venison and sweet potato formula you might be interested in trying, but the issue is that their co-packer who makes their foods will likely not have the quality control to make sure ALL the previous potential allergens are flushed out in the manufacturing process. Doing a home prepared diet will likely be a better choice for the elimination diet (i.e.- actually cook up venison and sweet potato AND THAT'S IT and all you're going to be feeding your dog the next 8 weeks). Then at that point, if your dog has improved, you can try them on an over the counter type of diet that has those ingredients and see if you get good results. 

The intradermal skin testing is something I would pursue (and had done on one of my own dogs a number of years back) if you get no improvement after the novel diet trial. In the mean time, I would invest in very good quality air filters to help filter dust, pollens, and so on (some dogs are even allergic to human dander!).


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

Also, don't get so hang up on protein as the possible cause (assuming that it is diet related). It could be corn, a certain flavour or colour agent, or any of the other many ingredients you will find further down the ingredient list. My maltese has food allergies and while we never narrowed the culprit down 100% I can tell it wasn't the protein source but one of the added ingredients. She can be on just about any Orijen protein and be fine, but did horribly on Acana and not so good on Wellness. The "good" thing is her allergies are pretty obvious and she is scratching and chewing within a week of being on a new food if it's a food that doesn't agree with her. What actually ended up working the best for her was raw. Meat and veggies only plus a few supplements and oils, but her ears and paws never looked better.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Holly Huryn said:


> Our new dog, a yellow lab, came with allergies. She gets red ears and her gums are red (which the vet said is also due to the allergies). Right now she is on Hills Prescription Duck and Potato. But I'm thinking it's not working very well - although I've not seen her scratch at all.
> Anybody know a good allergy diet out there? Bagged or fresh.



Did the dog itch before the vet visit? What led to the allergy diagnosis?

Do you know how low down on the list of allergies in dogs real food allergies are? Really really low. Something like 5 to 10% of the allergies dogs have are food allergies.*

An aside: True food allergies almost always do involve a protein ... not necessarily from a food we think of as protein, like meat, but a protein nevertheless. Corn, for example, contains protein (plant lipid proteins). 

(Sensitivity or intolerance and true allergies aren't the same thing. Allergies involve immunoglobulin E (IgE)-mediated reactions. Sensitivities, like to additives, usually involve non-IgE-mediated events.)


*
#1 is flea allergy dermatitis (flea bite dermatitis; flea hypersensitivity - many names)
#2 is environmental/inhalant


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Marta Haus said:


> The "good" thing is her allergies are pretty obvious and she is scratching and chewing within a week ....



Yes, this is the classic allergy symptom in almost all allergic dogs.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> So I'm a little confused...can you describe in which way is it not working very well if she's not scratching?




I'm confused too. Not clear on whether the dog was scratching and now is not, or if the dog never was scratching.


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## Holly Huryn (Mar 12, 2008)

I don't know if the dog ever scratched - since I have had her, I've not seen her scratch at her ears (or anywhere for that matter). I was told that she has allergies and that the current food she eats has been the best for her. 
She has the typical red ears of allergies, but it's also in her mouth, red gums. The vet here said that also indicated allergies. 
I'm confused to!


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## Grant Cusworth (Feb 15, 2011)

Heya Holly,

For Jazz and Cruiser we did the skin test thing... spent all the dough, and at the end of the day we simply have both of them on a low dose prednisone. 5 mg per day. Cruiser @ 65lbs produces (or should) more than that himself daily so we don't expect trouble down the road from a lifetime of steroids. It works perfectly for both our dogs. I wouldn't start a puppy out on it or anything, but Cruiser has been on it since he was about 4.

G


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Holly Huryn said:


> I don't know if the dog ever scratched - since I have had her, I've not seen her scratch at her ears (or anywhere for that matter). I was told that she has allergies and that the current food she eats has been the best for her.
> She has the typical red ears of allergies, but it's also in her mouth, red gums. The vet here said that also indicated allergies.
> I'm confused to!


I'm not going to comment on the diagnosis that led to the food change. However, here are some quotes (completely backed up by every vet manual I have, including _Small Animal Dermatology_) that will help explain the confused reaction to the O.P.:

QUOTE:_
... *itchiness is the most common symptom displayed by dogs suffering from allergic reactions*, but the exact location of this irritation and its duration may differ depending upon the type of allergy affecting the individual dog.

*When a dog suffers from a food allergy, seasonally-unrelated itching is common.* This can occur all over the animal's body, but in some cases may be particularly intense around the head and neck. The constant scratching and biting triggered by this itchiness may lead to hair loss. _
from http://pethealth.petwellbeing.com/wiki/Dog_Allergies

QUOTES: 

_There is a distinction that needs to be made between food allergies and food intolerances. *Food allergies are true allergies and show the characteristic symptoms of itching *and skin problems associated with canine and feline allergies._
_
The symptoms of food allergies are similar to those of most allergies seen in dogs and cats. *The primary symptom is itchy skin *affecting primarily the face, feet, ears, forelegs, armpits and the area around the anus. Symptoms may also include chronic or recurrent ear infections, hair loss, excessive scratching, hot spots, and skin infections that respond to antibiotics but reoccur after antibiotics are discontinued. There is evidence that dogs with food allergies may sometimes have an increased incidence of bowel movements. One study showed that non-allergic dogs have around 1.5 bowel movements per day where some dogs with food allergies may have 3 or more per day._
from Drs Foster and Smith at PetEducation.com

QUOTE:

_Food allergy is <10% as common as atopy in dogs ... *The history is that of a nonseasonal pruritus**, with little variation in the intensity of pruritus from one season to another in most cases._
from Merck Vet Manual

It's true that atopic dogs sometimes have red, hot-to-the-touch ears, but none of the symptoms that accompany virtually every case of atopy have been mentioned. When you look inside the ears, do you see pale healthy skin or red inflammation? Do you see debris and/or smell an odor?

This vet is not a derm vet, right?



**itch*


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## Dana Martin (Mar 5, 2011)

Hi Holly!

I've had really good luck with Taste of the Wild for JD. I use the Salmon, but they also have Venison and Duck and one more that escapes me (I think). It definitely has helped with his overall itching and coat condition He does have seasonal allergies, particularly blackberries, that I'm hoping to control with a daily antihistamine this year. This allergy is very evident with his chewing on his feet/legs after playing outside in the field, although my vet doesn't necessarily agree with me on it. I just know playing iin the field = itchy legs and feet helped immensely by rinsing off immediately after. For me that's sort of a no brainer 

I feed my Rottie Wellness. She has chronic pancreatitis so TOTW is out because of the fat content, but switching her to Wellness has done amazing things for her skin and coat overall.

Both of them also get Salmon Oil, too.

Sorry this isn't much in the way of suggestions for the allergies, just wanted you to know which foods worked for me.

Good luck! Allergies can be a real pain


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Dana Martin said:


> This allergy is very evident with his chewing on his feet/legs after playing outside in the field, although my vet doesn't necessarily agree with me on it. I just know playing iin the field = itchy legs and feet helped immensely by rinsing off immediately after. For me that's sort of a no brainer


For me too: Minimize carrying allergens like pollen indoors to the carpet (or just on the dog to be breathed in, 24/7).

But the O.P.'s dog has no itching, chewing, biting.


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## Dana Martin (Mar 5, 2011)

Connie,

I know....that's why I was specifying that JD does have known allergies but the food has helped overall as well.

D


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## Tamara McIntosh (Jul 14, 2009)

Holly Huryn said:


> Our new dog, a yellow lab, came with allergies. She gets red ears and her gums are red (which the vet said is also due to the allergies). Right now she is on Hills Prescription Duck and Potato. But I'm thinking it's not working very well - although I've not seen her scratch at all.
> Anybody know a good allergy diet out there? Bagged or fresh.


you got a new dog... and its a LAB??? wtf?? How are your boys going to do french ring with a lab??

On another note...

My BFF has a GSD with severe allergies, ear infections, etc. She has narrowed it down to a grain allergy, but she also has a thyroid problem which ascerbates the issue. She switched the dog to raw, however they have to be incredibly vigilent with any treats they feed her as well (the b/f giving the dog a few pizza crusts resulted in the dog inflamed for well over a month). For some reason this dog craves grains, and she will go thru the garbage like a fat chick on the atkins diet searching for moldy bread and crap like that.

Most of the people I talk to with dietary issues with their dogs it turns out to be the grains that cause the issues, however I do know several dogs that can not tolerate chicken, whether in food or raw.

It is very hard to do an elimination diet feeding kibble, as there is quite a few ingedients in it.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Tamara McIntosh said:


> you got a new dog... and its a LAB??? wtf?? How are your boys going to do french ring with a lab??
> 
> On another note...
> 
> ...


The fact the GSD craves grains so strongly makes me kind of wonder...is the dog receiving any veggies or carbohydrates at all with her raw diet? Dogs basically evolved from wolves to eat our scraps, including breads and things of that nature. I don't agree with a super grain heavy diet, but some dogs do better with some grains and grain free isn't for all dogs (my own performance dog is one). A true allergy or intolerance to ALL grains (like celiac disease in humans) is uncommon. It is more likely to be specific types. Perhaps try challenging the dog with something like a small amount of cooked oatmeal or barley instead of wheat (probably what was in the pizza crusts).


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## Holly Huryn (Mar 12, 2008)

@ Connie - nope the vet is not a derm, and I can honestly say I don't even know if he is a good vet, I've only seen him once as we only have one vet up here. Normally I go to my previous vet, but a 4 1/2 drive wasn't happening this time. I was just told this was allergies. I have never seen her itch but inside her ears are quite red and inflammed as are her gums. 

I'm really scared to try anything, although I know I have to try something, I just don't want to make it any worse than it already is ... I'm guessing starting out with raw is the overall consensus and go from there.

@Tami - you crack me up!LOL I know, hey, what kind of decoys am I raising?! Although, they are already teaching her the positions, so we have hope, and she LOVES to bite the tug ....


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## Tamara McIntosh (Jul 14, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> The fact the GSD craves grains so strongly makes me kind of wonder...is the dog receiving any veggies or carbohydrates at all with her raw diet? Dogs basically evolved from wolves to eat our scraps, including breads and things of that nature. I don't agree with a super grain heavy diet, but some dogs do better with some grains and grain free isn't for all dogs (my own performance dog is one). A true allergy or intolerance to ALL grains (like celiac disease in humans) is uncommon. It is more likely to be specific types. Perhaps try challenging the dog with something like a small amount of cooked oatmeal or barley instead of wheat (probably what was in the pizza crusts).


This dog is over 9 years old, and has been "experimented" on quite a bit as it took them many years to figure out where the issue was coming from. ANY grains induce the inflammation and itching/scratching to the point where she bleeds.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

So is the dog getting any sort of veggie mix with her raw?


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## Ricardo Ashton (Jun 3, 2010)

Not all allergic reactions in dogs result in itching/scratching. Sometimes its hair loss, edema, rashes, malaise or a combo. All allergies can be managed to some degree. But what is the dog allergic to? Poultry? Beef? Environmental factors like pollen or dust?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Ricardo Ashton said:


> Not all allergic reactions in dogs result in itching/scratching. Sometimes its hair loss, edema, rashes, malaise or a combo. All allergies can be managed to some degree. But *what is the dog allergic to?* Poultry? Beef? Environmental factors like pollen or dust?



If you mean the O.P., even whether it's allergy is questionable, never mind what the allergen(s) might be. The dog has red ears and gums, period, and the vet's response was to give Hills Prescription Duck and Potato.


PS
Nearly all allergic dogs itch. There may well be additional symptoms, but itching is classic, whether it's flea bite dermatitis, atopy, or true food allergy. The vet says food allergy, based on the red ears and gums. On page 2, I quote Merck, a manual that concurs with the others I looked at that _"Food allergy is <10% as common as atopy in dogs ... The history is that of a nonseasonal pruritus*, with little variation in the intensity of pruritus from one season to another in most cases.."_ (End of quote from Merck)

*itch



Atopic dogs sometimes have red, hot-to-the-touch ears, but none of the symptoms that accompany virtually every case of atopy have been mentioned.


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## Holly Huryn (Mar 12, 2008)

If it's not an allergy, what the heck could it be?!!?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Holly Huryn said:


> If it's not an allergy, what the heck could it be?!!?


The big question. And if the dog IS allergic, why would the vet think "food"? He doesn't even have the itch pattern to assess (the geography of the pruritis is often a little different, with overlaps, between food and atopy) because there is no itch.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

He took her temperature, right? I mean, he ruled out red ears and gums from fever/infection?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

I'm looking up red ears in a dermatology handbook and it mentions red ears being somewhat common with allergies -- but with the other classic allergy symptoms.

Bright red gums in the general handbooks I'm skimming through all lead to talk about infection, fever.





eta
I know nothing at all about the connection between infection and red gums -- just read it in passing once about fever/infection and now see it again in a different source. Just saying that this is nothing knowledgeable -- I'm typing what I'm reading.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Still looking. Of course gingivitis is mentioned frequently. 

Here are a couple of pages I found online answered by vets:


This one, the person asking mentioned food in the question, so it was addressed in the answer:

_"A dog's gums can be bright red for many reasons. A food intolerance isn't normally one of them, but anything is possible. Itching, vomiting, diarrhea and other skin related problems would be a guess for the food."_

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Ask-Veterinarian-700/bright-red-gums.htm




_What Your Dog’s Gum Color Tells You
By M. Christine Zink, DVM, PhD, DACVP
".... The appearance of the gums is very informative. If the gums are blue, the dog lacks oxygen. If they are white, the dog has lost blood, either internally or externally. If the gums are purple or gray and there is a slow capillary refill, the dog is probably in shock. *If they are bright red, she may be fighting a systemic infection or may have been exposed to a toxin."*_

http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/what-your-dogs-gum-color-tells-you.html#ixzz1KGtrSQq9


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

I posted the question to one of those "JustAnswer" sites, where you choose a field (vet, for example) and ask experts for general answers --- as well as they can do over the 'net, anyway.

It took a few hours to get the reply, but I did get one after a little back-and-forth.

After I explained the vet-far-away problem, she suggested trying Benadryl for a couple of days to see what happens if desired before returning to the vet to explain that his food switch suggestion did not lessen the ear-and-gums redness.

QUOTE: The usual dose is 1-2mg per pound, so if your dog weighs 50 pounds, you could try giving him 2 of the 25mg tablets once every 12 hours. END of QUOTE


My own opinion is that I wouldn't go a long time with the dog having consistently bright red gums and ears. I would probably also take the dog's temp and if it was high I'd call the vet right then. That's JMO, and I'm not a health professional.

I'm hoping one of the vets we have on the board will comment on the suggestion.



eta
The suggestion came from a Certified Veterinary Technician in MN
(Associates Degree in Veterinary Technology).


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## Holly Huryn (Mar 12, 2008)

Wow, thanks Connie! I'm going to give her some benadryl right now and see how it goes.
I did speak with a guy this evening, a former police dog handler (and breeder of labs) he suggested that red gums can be due to the dog having distemper as a puppy, prior to having shots. Have you ever heard of this?
Hmmm, I've never taken a dogs temp but it's a good idea, this should be fun ... lol


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