# K9 handlers



## Thomas Jones (Feb 4, 2011)

could this have been handled different. I understand they have to protect there investment in the dog but the owners of the dog that was killed have a point too. There's many different non lethal options but I don't know the whole story so he may have had to shoot it. Sounds like somebody on a power trip imo. watch the video btw

http://www.wcjb.com/news/9253/deputy-killed-familys-dog-owners-want-to-know-why


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

I think it is Bullshit....sorry, but the officer could have done something different.


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## Thomas Jones (Feb 4, 2011)

could have done this 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGUyMFPJRnU


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Having been there all I can say is; I wasn't there. Today it's easy for me to say yeah, he should have done something else. In the middle of someones yard, trying to arrest a fugitive, I don't know if there was anything else I could/would have done. Like I said, I wasn't there. Youtubes just don't seem to have the same sphincter closure power, unless you were there.

DFrost


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

David Frost said:


> Having been there all I can say is; I wasn't there. Today it's easy for me to say yeah, he should have done something else. In the middle of someones yard, trying to arrest a fugitive, I don't know if there was anything else I could/would have done. Like I said, I wasn't there. Youtubes just don't seem to have the same sphincter closure power, unless you were there.
> 
> DFrost


While I agree with this, I still think there could have been something else tried first, instead of just shooting the dog right away. When trailing Max I run into stray dogs all the time, or dogs coming out from some of the ranch homes we pass.....usually a loud "GET" works, but I have had to use pepper spray. Thankfully Max just ignores those kinds of things when he is working.


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## Thomas Jones (Feb 4, 2011)

Just a F'd up situation all the way around. POS like this guy shed bad light on good cops/handlers. I feel bad for the owners though you could obviously tell they were upset but ya know the cop was chasing a felon he may have had his gun already drawn. I wouldve lost my mind and I'd be in jail right now if it were my dog


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

David,
So are you saying you have to witness something to know it's wrong?


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

It was on their very own property and lately you see more and more reports about cops, shooting dogs, on peoples property.


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## Thomas Jones (Feb 4, 2011)

I went to high school with a guy that was just weird. He used to put cats in a croaker sack and shake em up. He'd shoot dogs with BB guns. Really he was just an unstable person. This same guy just graduated from the state trooper academy. I'm sure its like this all over the country. We give these guys authority to put someone in jail, a gun, and in some cases a highly trained dog and they don't even have to have to have a college degree. 

This cop were discussing is probably the same type of guy. He showed no remorse for killing a family pet that was guarding his own property. Like I've already stated I wouldve went nuts. I wouldve definitely got in trouble but I have the best lawyers money can buy in my family and I also suffer from ptsd so I may be able to get off. 

Here's a hypothetical though. Its night and your dog runs out in the yard barking. Someone shoots your dog you return fire without knowing its a cop. Who's in the wrong there. Your protecting YOUR property from a stranger who has already shot your dog. That would be my story anyway and I'd be the only one telling it.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Al Curbow said:


> David,
> So are you saying you have to witness something to know it's wrong?


No sir, I didn't say that at all. I said: "Having been there all I can say is; I wasn't there. Today it's easy for me to say yeah, he should have done something else. In the middle of someones yard, trying to arrest a fugitive, I don't know if there was anything else I could/would have done. Like I said, I wasn't there. Youtubes just don't seem to have the same sphincter closure power, unless you were there."

Unlike some, I didn't make a judgement. I wasn't saying he was right or wrong. 

DFrost


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## Michael Santana (Dec 31, 2007)

While it's a shitty situation all around. I have to agree with David, we weren't there, and do not know all the details. I know that the media would NEVER exaggerate on a story, and will always play the devils advocate... right? I think its not on us to jump to a conclusion, an investigation can be done, by someone more qualified than a reporter, and judgement should be brought forth then.

I can't say it was the right or wrong thing to do, I will say that sometimes you have to play the less of two evils.. and it really sucks.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

I was not jumping to a conclusion. The cops shot a dog on its own property, and I am of the opinion that is BS. 

Do you really think they are going to do a detailed investigation on a dog that was shot? 

K9's are considered partners, pets are considered expendable property it seems.


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## Michael Santana (Dec 31, 2007)

Carol Boche said:


> K9's are considered partners, pets are considered expendable property it seems.


Yeah. Harsh truth.. but thats the way it is. K9s are a tool and an asset in LE, they cost money, and time to train. LEOs are charged to serve, and at times they will have to go into someones yard to do so. 

Feel free to post a sign on your yard. "If a criminal enters my yard.. don't follow him"


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

K9's are considered partners, pets are considered expendable property it seems.[/QUOTE]


I can agree with that....


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Michael Santana said:


> Yeah. Harsh truth.. but thats the way it is. K9s are a tool and an asset in LE, they cost money, and time to train. LEOs are charged to serve, and at times they will have to go into someones yard to do so.
> 
> Feel free to post a sign on your yard. "If a criminal enters my yard.. don't follow him"


All animals cost money and take time to train. 

And I totally understand all of the above, I am not that stupid. I just think that shooting a dog is going a little overboard. 

Also, if a criminal runs through my property, they are more than welcome to chase them.


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## Val Schwarzmueller (Mar 18, 2011)

It must be a horrible thing to see your dog shot on your own property, however the police as the legal right to deal with a dog interfering with an arrest. If your dog attacks an officer or his dog that is also an officer of the law it's the discretion of the officer how he wants to deal with the situation. It comes down to split second decisions. No time for second guessing here. Many officers I know personally, are prejudice:twisted: toward pit bulls or pit-bull mixes. They will shoot them on sight. Too many officers have bad experiences with that breed, so why take changes. I’m not a cop and carry a handgun at all times. If my dogs get attacked unprovoked by a dog aggressive breed I will protect my investment. My dog is worth a lot of money. And the owner of the dead dog should take some responsibility too. After all you must have reasonable control of your dog at all times even on your own property (STATE LAW). This is a very unfortunate incident and happens more than once. That’s why I believe in 8 foot fences around my place, it keeps the bad guys out and the dogs in. I’m sure this could have been resolved in a more humane way, but we don’t know the real circumstances of this tragic decision. The officers’ judgment is final. Doubtful he will lose his job over it.

Cheers, Val


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## Justen Haynes (Dec 1, 2010)

Just glad it wasn't an APBT. Would be a completely different story. He would have killed all the cops and their dogs...menace to society...glad he got shot...bla bla bla...cop would have been a hero. Tragic and stupid regardless. I hope he gets some kind of punishment for being reckless...probably not...


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## Drew Peirce (Nov 16, 2006)

maybe he should have asked scrappy nicely to let go of his dog's throat huh?
or maybe ran back to his cruiser for a bacon strip, yeah

moron


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## Courtney DuCharme (Feb 5, 2011)

Justen Haynes said:


> *Just glad it wasn't an APBT*. Would be a completely different story. He would have killed all the cops and their dogs...menace to society...glad he got shot...bla bla bla...cop would have been a hero. Tragic and stupid regardless. I hope he gets some kind of punishment for being reckless...probably not...


 
Couldn't get volume to work for some reason- but he looked like a pit bull..........


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## CJ Neubert (Sep 7, 2009)

I have to agree with David also. Look at the size of those people's property, I am sure they would not have let the dogs out if they had known what was going on in the back woods. Also if the officer has one at gunpoint with the dog in the woods transitioning to a different option to break up a dog fight is not going to be the safest option with an un-searched suspect. We don't know if the suspect was secured yet nor how many back up officers there were. It is easy to monday morning quarterback but the officer has to make a snap decision then and there. Yes it is a sucky situation all around and I feel sorry for all involved save the suspect.


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## Thomas Jones (Feb 4, 2011)

Drew Peirce said:


> maybe he should have asked scrappy nicely to let go of his dog's throat huh?
> or maybe ran back to his cruiser for a bacon strip, yeah
> 
> moron


Or maybe they should shoot the K9 for being such a P**SY!!! A highly trained K9 couldn't fight off a 50 lbs dog yea he needs to be shot. Btw the point of this thread is that non lethal force could have been used instead there's some dumbass probably like the same guy I mentioned earlier. He'll get his though karma is bitch. Good lord willing I will never be put in that situation cause it would get very ugly.

Also the K9 didn't even go to the vet. This is Busch league in every way and this punk should be reprimanded


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

So is this ok? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FFlWGeb_aw&feature=related


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## Michael Santana (Dec 31, 2007)

Thomas Jones said:


> Or maybe they should shoot the K9 for being such a P**SY!!! A highly trained K9 couldn't fight off a 50 lbs dog yea he needs to be shot. Btw the point of this thread is that non lethal force could have been used instead there's some dumbass probably like the same guy I mentioned earlier. He'll get his though karma is bitch. Good lord willing I will never be put in that situation cause it would get very ugly.
> 
> Also the K9 didn't even go to the vet. This is Busch league in every way and this punk should be reprimanded



Simple people make me laugh...


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

How about this ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yF20qqIN7zs&NR=1


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Heres one !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjkUXUgmHio&feature=related


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Another one ! ! ! !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9Com08ILgQ&feature=related


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## Thomas Jones (Feb 4, 2011)

If you wanna build buildings you have to go to school to be an architect. 
If you wanna take care of sick animals you have to go to school which takes several years. 
If you wanna do taxes you have go to school to be a CPA. 
If you wanna be an officer in the military and leads troops into battle you have to have a 4 year degree. 

If you wanna be a cop and have all the power that embodies you have to go to the police academy or ride along with your brother in law. This is a much wider subject but LE should be one of the most strenuous things to become a part of not something for kids that got picked on in high school to get into to get back at society because they've been done wrong. 

Like I said this is Busch league. Period. End of story


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

In addition to agreeing with David I have a very hard time passing judgment on most anything I read or see in/on the news. To many bad experiences in my life based only on what was put in the paper and on the TV.


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## Michael Santana (Dec 31, 2007)

How about this one.. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYqR8OeftuA

or this one...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eozl34Lmec


oh wait.. another...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6aOyF-2j3Y


People love this stupid shit. Were those videos about that one officer? Dont think so, it was about some idiots doing something stupid... no where near the same situation.


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## Michael Santana (Dec 31, 2007)

Thomas Jones said:


> If you wanna build buildings you have to go to school to be an architect.
> If you wanna take care of sick animals you have to go to school which takes several years.
> If you wanna do taxes you have go to school to be a CPA.
> If you wanna be an officer in the military and leads troops into battle you have to have a 4 year degree.
> ...



Well.. I'm glad you cleared that up for us...


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

The point was that people cannot admit that there was a ****up. It happens.

It has nothing to do with K9 cops getting shot. Nobody wants them hurt either.


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## Michael Santana (Dec 31, 2007)

My point is that everyone is crying without knowing the full story. In that one case. If the guy ****ed up, well.. than so be it. The media is hardly a reliable source for the full story though... I expected better from you Jeffy :lol:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Cops are no different then JQ public when it comes to mistakes but I still wont pass judgment on a news story. Doesn't matter how righteous it may sound.
Kinda like all the "heartwarming" :-({|=stories on the net that my buddy's wife e-mails to EVERYONE!
Those are nothing more then folks competing for a job as a Hallmark card writer. ;-)


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## Thomas Jones (Feb 4, 2011)

I don't really want the K9 shot. 2 wrongs don't make a right. 

Also they talked with someone from the sheriffs dept had they only talked to the victims it would be different. The one that was caught on the security camera showed what probably happened. somebody trying to show off. 

I also was not trying to clear up anything I was just simply stating that other professions without near the power as LEO require a lot more training. Something people don't realize about college is you don't have to be smart however you do need to have a good work ethic and be persistent and be social. I think college would cull a lot of the types that's have been posted in this thread. Jmo


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## Thomas Jones (Feb 4, 2011)

David Frost said:


> Having been there all I can say is; I wasn't there. Today it's easy for me to say yeah, he should have done something else. In the middle of someones yard, trying to arrest a fugitive, I don't know if there was anything else I could/would have done. Like I said, I wasn't there. Youtubes just don't seem to have the same sphincter closure power, unless you were there.
> 
> DFrost


David you said the other day you guys were a small fraternity. How about you try and find what the situation was and what happened and without divulging any details just come back and simply tell us whether you think it was right or wrong. If you can't don't worry about it I just figured I would put it out there. 

Also for everybody in this thread to know. I have a tremendous amount of respect for all LEO that put there lives on the line everyday and I would do anything in the world for people that risk there lives doing what they enjoy doing in protecting and serving the citizens of thge united states. Just like in all professions you have the ones that are punctual and have standards and morals. Then you have the ones that sit on the phone in the bathroom, are always late, and have an attitude. Those people should be dealt with just as any other profession would deal with them but sadly its usually a grandson whose grandfather was a deputy and things are overlooked. We call it the good ole boy system down here.


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

I'm sure no one here knows the officer at all yet there are a lot of assumptions about him and his character... I thought we were a better lot than this,

You are tracking your dog through the woods... a strange dog attacks your dog, pins him to the ground and bites his neck. Tough call... how long do you let it go on? What if you can't pull the dog off? 

I didn't see anywhere that the police dog was not injured....but even if it was not.. you can not take info learned after the fact into account weather the actions of the officer were justified.


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## John-Ashley Hill (Jan 5, 2011)

Thomas Jones said:


> Or maybe they should shoot the K9 for being such a P**SY!!! A highly trained K9 couldn't fight off a 50 lbs dog yea he needs to be shot. Btw the point of this thread is that non lethal force could have been used instead there's some dumbass probably like the same guy I mentioned earlier. He'll get his though karma is bitch. Good lord willing I will never be put in that situation cause it would get very ugly.
> 
> Also the K9 didn't even go to the vet. This is Busch league in every way and this punk should be reprimanded


Unless you purchase your patrol dog from Michael Vick it's generally seen as advantageous to not have a working dog that agresses to other dogs. Thats because its his job to work and the HANDLERS job to keep him safe. If the dogs working and focused on that task and is attacked by another dog, of course the working dog is at a disadvantage. We dont train dogs for fighting. Could the handler have used other options...I guess, but I could also use other options if a fellow officer is being attacked by a knife, I could spray or taze. Why dont you ask the other officers here if they would appreciate one of those responses. The dog was at risk of great bodily injury or even death if the dog got on his neck. So what if he didnt go to the vet! If I shoot a suspect BEFORE he stabs another officer well then guess what smart guy that officer WOULD NOT have any visible injuries..does that mean that he was not in danger? As others have stated you werent freakin there, so stop assuming, when you have no facts to back you up. As far as us backwoods uneducated cops with no college.. many depts are now requiring or strongly recommending at least a bachelors degree.... i also had to go thru a physical, polygraph, psych exam, background, polygraph, pt test just to be considered for hire lets see i know many college grads with nice jobs that werent screened nearly like that and if they had been would have failed...no matter how pressed the uniform or if you wear a tie most police work is blue collar changing tires, pushing cars out of road, chasing people over fences..i think a bunch of inbreds like us are suited to serve our fellow man in that capacity, that stuff is to remedial for a smart guy like you
I dont care whose freakin yard I am in, if a dog attack a member of my family, I would not wait to see if he drew blood or how hard he was biting..I would eliminate the threat in the manner I was trained going a level above the threat being displayed...I consider my partner a member of my family and I would react the same as my 3 yr old was being attacked


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## Thomas Jones (Feb 4, 2011)

John-Ashley Hill said:


> Unless you purchase your patrol dog from Michael Vick it's generally seen as advantageous to not have a working dog that agresses to other dogs. Thats because its his job to work and the HANDLERS job to keep him safe. If the dogs working and focused on that task and is attacked by another dog, of course the working dog is at a disadvantage. We dont train dogs for fighting. Could the handler have used other options...I guess, but I could also use other options if a fellow officer is being attacked by a knife, I could spray or taze. Why dont you ask the other officers here if they would appreciate one of those responses. The dog was at risk of great bodily injury or even death if the dog got on his neck. So what if he didnt go to the vet! If I shoot a suspect BEFORE he stabs another officer well then guess what smart guy that officer WOULD NOT have any visible injuries..does that mean that he was not in danger? As others have stated you werent freakin there, so stop assuming, when you have no facts to back you up. As far as us backwoods uneducated cops with no college.. many depts are now requiring or strongly recommending at least a bachelors degree.... i also had to go thru a physical, polygraph, psych exam, background, polygraph, pt test just to be considered for hire lets see i know many college grads with nice jobs that werent screened nearly like that and if they had been would have failed...no matter how pressed the uniform or if you wear a tie most police work is blue collar changing tires, pushing cars out of road, chasing people over fences..i think a bunch of inbreds like us are suited to serve our fellow man in that capacity, that stuff is to remedial for a smart guy like you
> I dont care whose freakin yard I am in, if a dog attack a member of my family, I would not wait to see if he drew blood or how hard he was biting..I would eliminate the threat in the manner I was trained going a level above the threat being displayed...I consider my partner a member of my family and I would react the same as my 3 yr old was being attacked


So you would put your 3 y/o in that position. I'm sorry about making judgement but if it looks like a duck and walks like a duck more than likely its a duck. I'm glad to hear more depts are making it more difficult to get into LE. That's needed. You got a lot of these backwoods punks that are on power trips that like to shoot dogs its seems like. Some bad storms just went through here and there's a lot of SAR dogs in tuscaloosa right now. I'm sure there's some loose dogs running around maybe they won't be shot and add more pain to someone that's already lost there home.

Either way there are some whack job in LE just like there is in any other profession the only difference is these whack jobs which are plentiful around here are able to shoot dogs on ones property and nothing happen. Like I've already said it wouldve got real ugly if it were me but these cops around here know better. I don't even wanna think about it it makes me think about bad things and runs my blood pressure up. 

Btw my remedial smart ass is going to tuscaloosa this weekend to volunteer this weekend to do some blue collar type work.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Thomas Jones said:


> David you said the other day you guys were a small fraternity. How about you try and find what the situation was and what happened and without divulging any details just come back and simply tell us whether you think it was right or wrong.
> 
> 
> but sadly its usually a grandson whose grandfather was a deputy and things are overlooked. We call it the good ole boy system down here.


Ya know, I could probably do exactly that. I elect not to for a couple of reasons. 

1. Personally, I feel your mind is already made up. You've expressed your opinions of law enforcement officers in general on more than one occasion, within this thread. I'm sorry the general education level is not up to your standards. ( I do have a degree however)

2. You've also made it quite clear, that in your experience, your view of the video has shown the officer to be at fault, the dog a piece of shit and the tactics deplorable. 

3. Just a personal note, I was never bullied, nor was I a bully in high school. I was Air Force though, maybe that accounts for it. I was in Viet Nam as well, a dog handler and didn't bully anyone there either. 

I'll still point out though, again, I have never said whether or not the officer was justified in what he did. I have been in that situation, it's not always as easy, then/there, as it is watching a video. I'm certain you've been in many similar situations and know exactly what I mean.

By the way, my father, when he was promoted to Captain on Saipan Island, never finished high school. Just thought I'd mention it. 

DFrost


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## Courtney DuCharme (Feb 5, 2011)

Thomas Jones said:


> *So you would put your 3 y/o in that position*. I'm sorry about making judgement but if it looks like a duck and walks like a duck more than likely its a duck. I'm glad to hear more depts are making it more difficult to get into LE. That's needed. You got a lot of these backwoods punks that are on power trips that like to shoot dogs its seems like. Some bad storms just went through here and there's a lot of SAR dogs in tuscaloosa right now. I'm sure there's some loose dogs running around maybe they won't be shot and add more pain to someone that's already lost there home.
> 
> Either way there are some whack job in LE just like there is in any other profession the only difference is these whack jobs which are plentiful around here are able to shoot dogs on ones property and nothing happen. Like I've already said it wouldve got real ugly if it were me but these cops around here know better. I don't even wanna think about it it makes me think about bad things and runs my blood pressure up.
> 
> Btw my remedial smart ass is going to tuscaloosa this weekend to volunteer this weekend to do some blue collar type work.


Seriously........ you are just looking to fight. Maybe it's time to lock the thread.
I don't know why you are so upset by this that you are attacking the LE officers on here. They have done their best to explain things to you. I agree with them- it sucks- but you have to respond how you see fit at the time. I work at a vet's office, I groom- I love dogs- but I can see why it happened & I don't think it was one persons fault over another. If their dog was chasing a deer on THEIR property and a DNR officer was out there- they would shoot it. It doesn't have to bite the deer.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I had a dog grab a Police K9 once, a GSD..

I was walking dog on leash....

across the street (in a very bad neighborhood), 2 police cars pulled up, not sure what they were doing, staging a raid or something. The K9 guy let the dog out of the car and it made a beeline across the street straight at us. When it was close enough, my dog (125 lb) presa, grabbed it by the head. It was coming full bore, I think to attack my dog, possibly me though too...

The officers had their guns out, I told dog to "out" and amazingly it did.
They were very upset, and so was I, the handler kept saying he was going to shoot my dog, and actually tried to agitate him, so he would get aggressive, so he could shoot him easier. The dog did not get aggressive. I tied the dog out to a tree 100 ft away from the scene, and went back over to them. They were talking about shooting the dog, impounding the dog, charging me with assault possibly attempted murder on an officer, suing me for vet bills...etc...etc...

I requested they call a supervisor out...I explained exactly what happened, and was there when they inspected the K9, superficial wounds on his skull, and a small hole on his lower jaw..gave them all my info...and the dogs vet's info...

The spin then became that I should not own such a dog that will fight like that, that is vicious, and should have it in a muzzle..and then it morphed into that I should stay in my nieghborhood, and not cross Western Ave, on my walks, because it was not safe for me..( I think I was pretty safe, personally, had the dog, which almost every thug was petrified of, and was carrying a concealed weapon (with a permit)..what was I doing there anyway, after dark...etc.etc. LOL. I said I was walking the dog, that was all.

I made the suggestion that if the K9 is dog aggressive, or not under very good control, that "maybe" the officer should leash the dog before he takes him out of the car.

I was then kicked to the curb, and cut loose to continue my walk.

I was glad the dog was not shot, it cost me $4000.00 lol.
I would understand if th dog did not release, and they had to shoot it, but I still would be pissed, rightfully so I think. It was not my fault.

I have had a few incidents with people and dogs, it is a highly emotional thing for most people, the 50 some yr old lady the lives next door hates me and Luna now, because she finally got a hold of thier little Bichon, in MY yard, when it came over to start shit with her. I did not see it coming. Luckily the dog had on a vet e collar, because it just got out of the vets that day to be neutured, and my dog tried to grab his head but could not get a grip...
I was able to string her up, but the little bastard wanted to fight then, so I kicked it away, as the old lady and her fat bastard son finally grabbed him. I was real glad that they did not try to kick my dog, they probably thought I was trying to protect my dog, I was yelling..NO please don't..I just didnt want the dog to grab one of them instead, that would have been a real mess....I put the dog up and was really concerned for "charmin" (their dog), and checked him out all over, apologizing (even though it was not my fault) he was shaken up a little, but had no wounds.

It has been a month or so since it happened...

So the old lady says to me the other day when I walked outside..
"El puto Madre"...that did not sound real neighborly to me so, I asked my PR friend what the meant, he said it was mexican spanish, becuase PR would never call my mother a whore...this is a 50+ lady...that now hates me because she lets her dog run all over the place...

I had my friend draft a letter to the lady in Spanish, stating that my mother is dead, and I dont appreciate her calling my dead mother a whore. It also explained what a dog leash is, and how to use one. She still hates me, probably will forever now..Now I have to watch the water bowl, any toys left in the yard, and pay close attention in the yard, in case they try to poison her...

The stupid lady still lets the dog walk all over with no leash, right in front of my house, and it is a pain because this dog is now zeroing in on poor charmin. I tell her "Don't squeeze the Charmin".

Point of all this, is irrational emotions fly...I was in the right in both scenarios here, but can totally understand if people wanted to kill my dogs, because they are emotional, even if it was their fault that a situation developed. Shit happens. I try not to get emotional about things involving dogs, it is what it is..If they shot my dog I would be pissed, but could understand it...

Dogs get killed all the time, I watched my neighbor a few years back purposefully hit a dog in his car, and back up over it to make sure it was dead...the dog was another neighbors dog that was getting loose all the time, guy finally got pissed enough, took it out on the dog. I warned the owner, that the dog was causing lots of trouble on our block, and took his dog home to him a few times, and even offered to fix his fence for him. I should have took the dog to the shelter instead of returning it to him. I instead punched my other neighbor in the face,and then bagged up the dog and took him to a dumpster...guy never knew what happened to the dog, me and the other neighbor had no further problems, I did not turn him in, the dog was fixin to get pulled through my fence and killed soon anyways..

The dog is a pitbull mix, it attacked a K9, it sucks, but it happened. If it happened to me, I would understand it. I would be pissed but would understand it, it was his call, he made it...end of story...Instead of trying to get the guy fired, I would get them to buy me a new, better dog....


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Thomas Jones said:


> Also for everybody in this thread to know. I have a tremendous amount of respect for all LEO that put there lives on the line everyday and I would do anything in the world for people that risk there lives doing what they enjoy doing in protecting and serving the citizens of thge united states. J.



Your previous posts do not reflect that sentiment. Doesn't bother me, after 20 years of dealing with your type I've developed thick skin.

What does bother me though is your statement about the patrol dog being a pussy because it didn't fight the other dog. Tells me alot about you.

I'm not making a judgement on this case because I wasn't there. I HAVE been there though in the past. I recently posted a video of one of our guys who shot a dog last week that went after one of our officers. Guess he was wrong too.

In this case it wasn't a little 80'x120' fenced yard. It was an unfenced large wooded lot. The dog could have been anyone's loose dog. The owners say the dog is a scaredy cat and afraid of the dark but apparently doesn't have a problem attacking other dogs. 

You obviously are ignorant to the use, function and application of tasers, or the effects (or lack of) pepper spray on dogs. It's people like you who make dumbass statements about why an officer didn't shoot a murderous punk in the leg instead of the chest when the punk is trying to stab the officer to death. You have no clue but think you do.

Yea, it sucks the pet got shot. We weren't there and for those to assume that the officer was wrong is BS. I'm not saying he was right or wrong, but coming from a person who has been in those situations numerous times I actually have something to refer to when these incidents come up for discussion..

It's time for this uneducated ******* to go back to work and take out the human garbage that all those educated folks don't want to deal with.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Howard Knauf said:


> Your previous posts do not reflect that sentiment. Doesn't bother me, after 20 years of dealing with your type I've developed thick skin.
> 
> What does bother me though is your statement about the patrol dog being a pussy because it didn't fight the other dog. Tells me alot about you.
> 
> ...


I thought the same thing, place looked huge..

In the rural areas around here, there are dogs that roam all over various properties..might have made a difference, might not. dog attacked a K9, got shot, end of story...fluke situation, not calculated shooting for no reason.

I can understand the emotions involved, but being emotional about it does not solve anything, it makes things more of a mess, rationality flies out the window...who knows if the officer got emotional or not in the situation, have seen that happen first hand, but the owner's emotions are preventing them from looking at what happened in a rational manner, and causing people here to judge things they should not be judging.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

As I read my own posts, and after reading Howards, an apology from me is in order. 

I do not disrespect ANY law enforcement, as, I am LE as well. From my posts it looks that way and I apologize for that. 

Reading anything like this gets me angry, LEO involved or not (and yes, I shouldn't have clicked on it), and I am sure that if that happened here I would still be upset that this method was chosen before anything else, and I would stand behind my opinion and voice it. 

It has nothing to do with disrespect for me.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Dogs are dogs and under any given set of circumstances are going to respond like a dog. Had the K9 grabbed the family dog, the officer would have figured out ohow to handle it much differently BEFORE he shot the K9 even tough it was in the family dogs own yard. It is safe to say he would have never shot the K9. I have to wonder how well some of the K9 officers know dogs and what actually qualified them to become K9 officers.

Putting myself in the same position as the owners of the property, I have to cringe at the thought of what would have taken place. Turn a LE canine into my yard, he is done and with the situation amped up, a few things more that the dog would probably have been bit. I can only think that a K9 officer would have better sense than to pursue a chase through a yard with dogs. The option is to go around the yard. I have had county sherrifs here twice over the last 9 mo and they had enough sense not to come in the yard. Chasing a car thief doesn't warrant possibly putting my way of life in jeaopardy because he the officer is a chucklhead that looses all common sense in the heat of the chase.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

And here I thought you were a realist, Don. Cops don't know EVERY neighbor and what dogs they own. They do, however have the right to be anywhere they need to be to pursue criminals. Going around a 1-5 acre plot of land in hopes of picking up the track on the other side just because an owner MIGHT let their dog out (in this case the dogs weren't out at first) is completely ludicrous, and totally unrealistic. 

Maybe the bad guy didn't leave that owner's property and is still there? If the handler can't find the track on the other side I guess it's OK for them to leave the homeowner with the desparate criminal who is running from the police. I can see it now..."OK guys. We cant track in this yard and we can't find it on the perimeter so I guess we go have coffee now" Listen to yourself Don.

BTW, I do agree that handlers need to be more educated but, handlers aren't born with knowing all things dog and there is a learning curve. That's just the way it is. Of course some handlers should never have gotten the position but thats another thread.

Where was the owners recall?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I am a realist Howard. I don't have sound and didn't know the owners turned the dog out of the house. It is on them then. You can't fix stupid. I do know I would be more than pissed if someone threw a dog in my yard, regardless of circumstance, and not expect the worst to happen. Lucky for the owner, if he turned the dog out, that the dog didn't bite any actual officers. And, yes, I would expect, due to circumstance in my case, they go around the dog yards regardless of where you "have the right to be"......but I won't go and open the front gate to let the dogs out. :grin:


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

A prudent officer isn't going to go into a fenced yard with loose dogs. I've been through hundreds of fenced yards during all hours of the day and night tracking bad guys. You have to use some common sense though. In this case it was a huge huge lot (from the looks of the video) that was wooded in some parts and unfenced. Thats a place I would track through with no hesitation.

And as far as those who would like the officer to use some other means....well, I wish we had the time to sit back to disect and obfuscate instead of doing the job in real time making decisions in fractions of a second. Oh how I wish it were that way, then we would all be beyond reproach. But then, what would the unknowing public have to b***h about? Then again, maybe firemen would finally get some bad press.;-)


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## Jim Duncan (Jan 19, 2009)

I have sympathy for the dog and it's owners and it is unfortunate that the dog was killed. I can say that none of us want to be in the situation where we are forced to shoot some ones dog, we are all dog lovers as well. I think it has been explained by the other K-9 guys fairly well. What I always find fascinating by these threads is getting some insight into some of the posters. People never cease to amaze me. 

Jim


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## Thomas Jones (Feb 4, 2011)

Howard Knauf said:


> Your previous posts do not reflect that sentiment. Doesn't bother me, after 20 years of dealing with your type I've developed thick skin.
> 
> What does bother me though is your statement about the patrol dog being a pussy because it didn't fight the other dog. Tells me alot about you.
> 
> ...


I already stated I didn't want the K9 shot I was just replying to a stupid comment with another stupid comment. 

your right though none of us were there and as david and others have mentioned you only have seconds to make a judgement call and whether it was wrong once you make the decision to fire you can't take it back.

I also was not referring to anyone being uneducated I was just saying that maybe some priorities need to be switched around and hopefully weed out some of these nutcases on power trips. I'm not saying you are but you know and I know there are some out there.

I have the utmost respect for LE but I have 0 respect for people like that guy in the video that al posted. 

I would also like to thank you and every one else in this thread who do what you do. best of luck to all of you and god bless.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

The video that you posted was of Cocoa police officer Shedrick (whom I personally met on a few occasions) tasing a Rotti mix. If you watch the video again you'll see another officer on scene had drawn his service pistol and used the good judgement not to fire given that there were too many civilians standing around. The mere fact that officer Shedrick even hit the dog with the Taser was pure luck. Don't think for a minute that it's as easy to hit a moving target with a Taser is as easy as he made it look. The Taser, mace or baton is harder to connect with than a firearm. 

We do all we can with the time,tools and judgement we have when things like this occur. It's not an easy job no matter who you are. That's why we get paid the big bucks. Not. Even if all cops had a degree the pay would still suck. Sometimes you get what you pay for. True in all aspects of life.


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## Jim Duncan (Jan 19, 2009)

A College Degree is nice and shows the effort that was put into finishing school. In my PD recruits with College Degrees get a higher starting salary that recruits with out degrees. As a matter of fact a recruit graduating the academy with a degree makes more than a 10 year veteran street Officer. One very experienced K9 handler once made a comment at City Hall adressing this disparity in pay and experience. He stated "When it's 2 AM and I'm tracking a wanted felon through the woods I'll tell the rookie to throw his degree at the bad guy. That will keep us safe." 

I went to College, but when it comes to degrees and Police work they are about as valuable as a SchH title on a Police dog when the shit hits the fan. When I pick some one to clear a building or do a track, I could give a crap if they have a degree. Give me a cop with some good tactics and decision making skills, cool head and common sense and I'm good to go. 

Jim


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## Thomas Jones (Feb 4, 2011)

maybe I'm not explaining this right. I'm not saying that you can't be a good cop without a degree what I'm saying is having that as a requirement would likely weed out some of the mental cases out there.

Maybe stricter psych evals are the answer. who knows.


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## Jim Duncan (Jan 19, 2009)

That is what the background check, psychological testing, polygraph, entrance exam, physical agility test, credit and license checks are supposed to do. But every now and then some one slips through who probably shouldn't. What do you do? How stringet are the hiring standards in your industry?


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## Thomas Jones (Feb 4, 2011)

I'm an electrician on an offshore oil rig now off the coast of LA. I had to go to school for 2 years and get licensed before I could take that job. They also did a background check and a credit check. I'm not sure why they did a credit check


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

" But every now and then some one slips through who probably shouldn't. "

Every now and then? That's why every PD has a whole unit employed to keep tabs on their own?

True story. Calif CHP pick up a call from a foothill communtiry where all the flatlanders live to get out of the city. A call came in that there was a deer trapped in a fenced garden. He was close so he took the call and arrived ahead of animal control. A lot of people were there when he arrived. He went in and shot the deer in front of everyone. Never occured to him to just wait for animal control at at worst, cut the fence. The CHP has a stringent protocol for hiring and there was an example of fine decision making at work...no stressful situation just possibly some common sense. Being a community of flatlanders, they all wanted his badge but, the CHP chose to relocate him. Why? Not great common sense dysplayed for someone that has a gun and says he has a right to be on my property....with a gun.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

It's easy to remember the f-ups, but does anyone really remember the good things done everyday that outnumber the few screw ups? Also...a guy can have an exemplary 25 year career with boo coo medals but one f-up and he a POS and no-one will let him forget it.

Attention all cops. When going to Don's house check your guns at the front gate.=D>


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

You put dogs on hogs and are worried about a deer getting shot :lol: anything to make a point I guess.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Howard Knauf said:


> It's easy to remember the f-ups, but does anyone really remember the good things done everyday that outnumber the few screw ups? Also...a guy can have an exemplary 25 year career with boo coo medals but one f-up and he a POS and no-one will let him forget it.
> 
> Attention all cops. When going to Don's house check your guns at the front gate.=D>



Imtersting perspective Howard. Now here is the rub. Let's say I am Mr. Perfect Civilian, just got home from a 10 hr shift and am sitting down to dinner with wifey and the kids. I have two protection dogs as I like training dogs. Yard is fenced and the dogs are in the house. A car thief jumps the fence and runs through the yard. Here comes the police with there dog. Perp made it through the yard so in all the excitement yelling back and forth, they swing the gate open and let the dog go. Of course with all the noise, my dogs are now alerted and come flying out the dog door. Your K9 is injured. Let's say you didn't shoot my dog even for a moment. Dogs will be dogs and mine protect their territory from other dogs. YOU have to expect shit to go south when running blind and turning dogs loose in strange yards. Now, you have chosen a course of action which has just FKED up my perfect life for several years. Why? Because LE will push the situation to the limit that I am at fault...which I am fault free. Now let's say you shot my dogs. I payed big bucks for the best and have several years of training, time, and money invested. My dogs are more important to my than any police dog. If your K9 grabbed a dog on the way through a yard and severley injured or killed it, none of you would shoot your dog. Something isn't right here. You say your protecting us from the evil bad guys, but it was the good guys that just screwed my life up for the next several years. When you start accepting the fact that when you are running around other peoples property, unannounced because the bad guy might get away, shit is going to happen occasionally. If the dog attacks an actual human police officer, I will give you that, do what you have to. If a K9 attacked one of my dogs you would figure out a way to not shoot it...or you would let your dog kill mine. Yes, even in the excitement of the chase when the adrenalline is pumping....you would figure out a way. I would expect a K9 officer to be able to figure out how to separate two dogs. It just isn't rocket science. Get a hose, get the owner, grab the dogs collar and choke him off. I know you would have figured it out if it was you. Tell me I am wrong....


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Wow. What a stretch there, Don. The criminal illegally enters your property fleeing the police after committing god knows what crime and the police are the bad guys when shit goes south? The criminal has no liability or responsibility in your eyes? It's all the cops' fault? Should we politely knock on your door while the criminal maybe forcefully enters your home, kills your dog (because he's territorial you know), holds your beloved (if you have one) at gun/knife point as a hostage to facilitate further escape, to get that precious permission to do our job? 

No one can determine when sh*t goes bad. The very smallest of incidents have turned into shootings and all sorts of other off the chart BS. Our actions are determined on what the bad guy does....he complies, it's all cool. He runs, we chase (but not always). He fights, we fight back. He shoots, we hopefully have better reflexes and aim.

Anything can go bad. Innocent parties are injured all the time. Many times from thier own stupidity. Just today we had a Pit and a GSD mix cornered a pedestrian off the dogs' property. I'm there with AC and the dogs are chilled out for a minute and some moron citizen decides he's going to walk across the street to speak to us about these vicious dogs. He's seen what the dogs do and myself and AC have our catch poles out. He comes over anyway after we told him to stay away. The dogs charge (no I didn't shoot either one cause I knew their behavior and they had already charged me twice without biting...then again, I didn't run from them). Now we use our poles to stop the charge and I almost lose an eye because the dipsh*t doesn't listen. The catch pole cable smacked me across the cheek and the end nearly went into my eye....But I digress.

Anyone's little utopia can be forever screwed. It can come from a stalker, ID theft, burglar, DUI, phsycho, child molester, you name it....and yes, cops. I get it Don, but what's your solution? We stop doing our jobs? And whose common sense policy do we follow? Yours? Screaming liberals? The anti Gov't types? Who is gonna make the rule on where we go for the overall good of the people?

If we are forbidden on private property, some are happy as pie. Others will scream bloody murder because we couldn't track that child molester who kidnapped the 5 year old little girl across Don's property cause SOMETHING MIGHT go bad. "Sorry ma'am, Don says no go....hope you got lots of video and pics of your little girl". 

I can go to the extreme too Don. Doesn't solve a thing. Sh*t happens in this life...if it happens to you then hopefully you'll live through it to get paid by the police if they did something wrong. Bad, inexperienced cops make bad/poor decisions. The vast majority are professional but human. Mistakes will be made. Sorry.

I have the answer for you...you can seceed sp? from society. I hear Ruby Ridge is nice this time of year. (FYI...I support the Weavers, not the FBI on that deal).


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Your right Howard, sht can haopen anytime or anywhere. All I am saying, if you find it necessary to invade my space, just because you can, dn't hold me liable for anything that a dog may do while you are there. Do your job, but don't make me out to be a bad guy if things don't go the way you planned....or didn't plan. Dog doors are a pretty common fixture these days. Besides, joby and countless others have told me dogs won't bite unless they are trained to do so. I won't even bat an eye if my dog grabs an officer and gets shot. No harm no foul, shit happens and you were in the wrong place at the right time.....and since it was my yard you were in you should expect things to go south pretty quick. Blame the bite on the bad guy, it was him you were following into my yard. Think about this now. Bad guy is in a big hurry and jumps my fence and the dogs catch him. Saved you guys a chase but now he sues me because you guys were chasing him/her. Anyone with a dog and property is just a pawn to be shuffled back and forth between the good guys and the bad guys and we lose everytime things go south. I just think when things go south, you shouldn't be able to hold me liable. Or, just because a bad decision was made it isn't my fault unless I made it. I don't want to be responsible for others bad judgement. And don't shoot my dog just because your dog is getting his a$$ kicked. You said hitting a dog with a tazer isn't that simple....it is if you have the dog by the collar Howard.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

I am not anti police, I am anti bad police. A few years back here we had a case where the police entered a yard with a search warrent and were confronted with a barking dog. They shot the dog dead. It turned out they had gone into the wrong yard and shot someone elses dog. Of course no one got sacked or in trouble over it.
We have instances where swat teams have raided the wrong house and shot innocent people dead and not get sacked or sent to jail.


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## Thomas Jones (Feb 4, 2011)

Christopher Jones said:


> I am not anti police, I am anti bad police. A few years back here we had a case where the police entered a yard with a search warrent and were confronted with a barking dog. They shot the dog dead. It turned out they had gone into the wrong yard and shot someone elses dog. Of course no one got sacked or in trouble over it.


thats the same way I am


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Howard, if you just happen to be chasing bad guys out this way, honk. I will come out and get you because the dogs control the forty yards from the gate to the house. Not to get off topic, but, screw the bad guy, I spent several hours making chile verde Sunday.....and it is good. all fresh tomatillas, 8 garlic cloves, jalapenas, pablanos, onion, wild pork simmered for 3 hrs. Good stuff Howard.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Christopher Jones said:


> I am not anti police, I am anti bad police. A few years back here we had a case where the police entered a yard with a search warrent and were confronted with a barking dog. They shot the dog dead. It turned out they had gone into the wrong yard and shot someone elses dog. Of course no one got sacked or in trouble over it.
> We have instances where swat teams have raided the wrong house and shot innocent people dead and not get sacked or sent to jail.



Yea well, that happened here and the person in charge got roasted for it. Nobody was shot or seriously injured which was good but still, discipline was meted out very severely.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> And don't shoot my dog just because your dog is getting his a$$ kicked. You said hitting a dog with a tazer isn't that simple....it is if you have the dog by the collar Howard.


 Just shows how much you don't understand, or ever experienced. The list is long and boring on why not to do that.

Chile Verde sounds good. Almost as good as my venison chile with Garbonzo beans, sharp cheddar and pepper jack cheese, topped with sour cream.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I have broke up lots of dog fights Howard. I grab the collar and choke them with it.


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## Courtney DuCharme (Feb 5, 2011)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I have broke up lots of dog fights Howard. I grab the collar and choke them with it.


 
I've done that too Don.....it's harsh but sometimes must be done. but- my dogs I worry a bit with. Your line is bred to be non human targeting, Grif's line is shorter temper flares. Like working dogs- the chance of getting bite by a dog like Grif in rage mode is more risky as you worried about. The LE dogs may react like that. 

This has good points..... but not sure how easy by your self (funny I always grab back legs to drag apart...... but cause I'm a chicken- not cause I knew I should)

http://leerburg.com/dogfight.htm


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I have broke up lots of dog fights Howard. I grab the collar and choke them with it.


 Me too.


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

So Howard, say your at work and this happens at your house, do you shrug your shoulders and just forget about it having been there and done that?

Is this okay? These awesome sharpsooters shot the dog in the crate ( took multible shots) with kids in the house, Would this be okay? I'm really curious to hear some peoples answers on this video. They did find resin in a pipe..... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbwSwvUaRqc&feature=player_embedded


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I have broke up lots of dog fights Howard. I grab the collar and choke them with it.


aside from all the craziness going on in this thread, like expecting a police officer to break up a dog fight..

I do have a question..is this by yourself?

which dogs collar do you grab and choke off, and how does that stop the fight?


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Really, Al? You believe I think this is OK? How do you bring this up from the discussion about shooting a loose dog attacking a PSD?

I'm the first to say that if the police screw up the officer needs to be held accountable. I'm one of the first to say that I can't make a judgement one way or the other without knowing all the facts. I am NOT one of the first to say the cop is always wrong when certain things are done that twang the emotional heartstrings of those who hear about such incidents. I do not support/defend bad behavior by anyone, cops included. I DO defend how we do our job when it's done in a legal manner and the unknowing, or ignorant try to make it appear the officer is wrong without knowing the facts.

It's incidents like that video that have people believing all cops are like that and support that. I would think that even though we've never met, you would know I don't support that. I'm quite dissapointed.

I don't know the circumstances behind that raid. Cops are there for a reason I imagine. Shooting a dog in the crate is BS. Shooting in a home with a child is BS IMO. Intel should have been good enough to handle the raid when the child is not home. Unfortunately, sometimes it has to be done. Put the onus on the parents. If they weren't dealing drugs or whatever around thier children the kids probably would never have to experience such a thing. That said....kids in the house should require a softer entry, but not at the expense of the officers' safety. People shoot at cops with thier kids in the same room. Funny how we have to ensure thier safety but the parents could give a rats ass.

And to answer your question....if I'm a shitbag and get raided then that's the cost of doing business. If I'm innocent Don, and my house gets hit in error, and my dog gets killed, and my kids are traumatized....(I answered this already), I'm gonna feel the same way as this family (if they're innocent, we dont know, do we?), then get paid later. Whether you're a good citizen, or scumbag....shooting dogs in a crate is unnacceptable.


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

Howard,
I'm trying to see where the line is. After reading , well if you weren't there how can you possibly tell anything from a video type comments, it's a little scary. I looked on youtube and it's unbelievable how many situations there are like this.


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## Thomas Jones (Feb 4, 2011)

Al Curbow said:


> So Howard, say your at work and this happens at your house, do you shrug your shoulders and just forget about it having been there and done that?
> 
> Is this okay? These awesome sharpsooters shot the dog in the crate ( took multible shots) with kids in the house, Would this be okay? I'm really curious to hear some peoples answers on this video. They did find resin in a pipe..... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbwSwvUaRqc&feature=player_embedded


That is so F'd up. How could anyone justify shooting an animal in a crate for crying out loud. I would really like to hear there reasoning behind doing that. maybe the wouldn't shut up I guess so they shot it. Bravo to the guy that uploaded that video. I would lose all faith in the system if they were not reprimanded. They need there throats cut for that. 

As I've already stated its douchebags like those guys that give good level headed LEO a bad rap.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Al Curbow said:


> Howard,
> I'm trying to see where the line is. After reading , well if you weren't there how can you possibly tell anything from a video type comments, it's a little scary.


 Don't quite get your meaning here. The video appears to be a search warrant executed. A dog is killed and a child is in the house. You said the dog was crated. I didn't hear that. I saw a crate. Didn't see a dog in the crate. Took your word for it. Dog in the crate, don't shoot. Dog attacks SWAT member, shoot. We didn't see either incident in this video so it appears assumptions can be made on both fronts. I don't like making assumptions but I do stand behind my ethics concerning not shooting dogs that are no threat.

A few months ago my friend was attacked by a Pit during a search warrant. The dog was on the bite when it was shot. That officer was very emotional after having done that. He had no choice. The dog had no choice. It was a security dog for the drug dealers. Sucks.


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## John-Ashley Hill (Jan 5, 2011)

Al- you want opinions on your video, well I feel the same way about it as I do the video that started this thread. It doesnt show anything for me to give an opinion on either way! If there was a dog in a crate that got shot thats messed up and a corgi isnt too imposing of a dog. But I didnt see them get shot in the video, I guess I'll just take it as gospet truth that it happened that way because some random guy on youtube says so, the only thing I could was a small dog quickly pass by after the shooting and he appeared to be fine.
Some of you are just grabbing random examples of cops making bad decisions or errors and expecting the LE here to be able to account and explain it. Well, you win we can't, I'm sure all LE here will concede there are bad cops. As for their being an IA division to investigate misconuct that just shows the higher standard that we are held to and rightly so. I think good ole' Paul sums up the thinking some of you have. less than 1/2 of 1%, ole' Paul Harvey must be making those numbers up you all have given so many fine examples of how cops are sh%$


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## John-Ashley Hill (Jan 5, 2011)

Al- you want opinions on your video, well I feel the same way about it as I do the video that started this thread. It doesnt show anything for me to give an opinion on either way! If there was a dog in a crate that got shot thats messed up and a corgi isnt too imposing of a dog. But I didnt see them get shot in the video, I guess I'll just take it as gospet truth that it happened that way because some random guy on youtube says so, the only thing I could was a small dog quickly pass by after the shooting and he appeared to be fine.
Some of you are just grabbing random examples of cops making bad decisions or errors and expecting the LE here to be able to account and explain it. Well, you win we can't, I'm sure all LE here will concede there are bad cops. As for their being an IA division to investigate misconuct that just shows the higher standard that we are held to and rightly so. I think good ole' Paul sums up the thinking some of you have. less than 1/2 of 1%, ole' Paul Harvey must be making those numbers up you all have given so many fine examples of how cops are sh%$


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## John-Ashley Hill (Jan 5, 2011)

www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEvZBKwvE0k Here is Paul spreading his pack of lies, making seem as if most cops care and do the job as a professional


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> aside from all the craziness going on in this thread, like expecting a police officer to break up a dog fight..
> 
> I do have a question..is this by yourself?
> 
> which dogs collar do you grab and choke off, and how does that stop the fight?


Always by myself Joby. I have done it with both owners standing there with their heads up their **** because they didn't know what to do but watch one bigger dog kill the other. I don't even get close to them until they got their mouths full of the other dog then I grab the aggressors collar from the back palm up sliding it under from the rear and give it a full turn at the same time. Usually the dog loosing the fight will leave as soon as the choked dog lets go. It is a bit different with my dogs because no one is going to quit....but my males are darned carefull about taking a swipe at me. The girls are different and they make me nervous....real nervous because I have grabbed one and ended up on the ground holding the one with two other trying to finish the fight. I have been bit twice by females. I have always had the view that if your afraid of your dogs, you got no business with them having them. Would I grab a dog as strong as a rottie...no. I mean you gotta have some sense. I have some 100+ lb dogs and if you don't get a good grip and twist that collar, the dog can break all your fingers or your wrist with one spin. It only took me one bad grab to find out once you twist the collar...you can't let it go so you better make sure the dog hasn't got the freedom to spin. Breaking up dog fights is an iffy deal anytime, but what are you going to do, sit there and watch it with the owners of the dogs? Seems you dog got hold of the neighbors dog recently....did you sit and watch?

I was reading a bird dog forum the other day. They were discussing ***** drowning dogs in a pond. They decided it would be a horrible thing to sit and watch your dog getting drown by a ****. They got upset with me when I told them you don't sit and watch your own dog get drown, you get in the water and get the dog out. That was beyond their comprehension believe it or not. I have gotten into bear and dog fights to save my dogs. Winchester was still layed up for 3 mo after that bear. Been in dog and hog fights to save my dogs. If a person is afraid to help his dogs, he has no business hunting them on things that can kill them. Seems pretty simple.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I had police come to my door once looking for a renter/roomie a few years back..He apparently got busted with some drugs and made a deal to work with the police, that he did not honor.

They came to the house looking for him, I was not aware of any of what happened, he never told me...

The police (2 detectives) stated that they needed to come into my house and search my his bedroom for drugs.

After a lengthy chat outside, with them asking all about my dogs and checking them out, I got around to asking them if they had a warrant, which they did not...I then told them I was sorry but I was not going to allow them to search without a warrant...just on principle...

The guy told me that they would get a warrant and then come and kick in my door, and kill my dogs...

I told them if they had a warrant I would put the dogs up and let them in no problems.

He responded with NO, we are gonna kick in your door and shoot your dogs...I said which ones? even the ones in crates? He said ALL of them, we'll shoot them in their crates and dump them out and say they tried to attack us...

They left angrily, I never heard from them again. 

Luckily they did catch up with my asshole roommate OUTSIDE of my house a month later...guy was an asshole anyway, I kicked his ass once when I witnessed him hit his GF in my kitchen.

I am sure the detective was just being a dick, trying to scare me into letting them in my house...I never thought they would really come in and just start killing the dogs...

There are assholes in any profession, some people are just assholes, period...

I think I have met 3-4 asshole cops in my life, only 1 that I thought was nuts...

that is a pretty small number, in my book. Ive met plenty of assholes that were not cops...LOL

I have a friend that does not like police, he always talks about how he gets harrassed and mistreated by the Police....

I was driving with him a couple of years ago, I got pulled over. Turns out my license was suspended (too many points), I was not aware the suspension had gone into effect yet....I am not saying I wouldn't have driven at the time, just saying I honestly was not aware it was actually suspended at that time...

Long story short, cop came up asked for license/paperwork...I gave it to him. He came back and informed me that my license was suspended..

He asked my friend if he had a driver's license, the guy ignored the cop totally, the officer then went over to his side and asked him if he had a license, the guy said yes...officer asks can I see it? the guy says NO! I AM NOT GOING TO SHOW YOU MY LICENSE, I DID NOTHING WRONG..and proceeded to act like a real asshole to the policeman.

After the cop had enough, he explained to ME that he wanted to see my friends license, so he could drive the car....Long story short the officer wrote my friend a ticket for no seatbelt, made him show his ID to write the ticket, and did not write me any tickets, and actually let ME drive away from there, after he left, so he did not see it.

Guy could have taken me to the station, he let me slide, because I really was not aware of the suspension. He pulled us over because neither of us had a seatbelt on...which is fair I guess, these days.....but I did not get any tickets, and my friend got one, as a passenger, cause he was a dick.

I could not believe how much of an asshole this guy was to the police...

I have to believe that his own actions may cause him to not be treated very well..If I was a cop, I sure wouldn't cut him any breaks, he is a dick to the cops...even if they are super professional and nice, I saw that first hand..

so some people are just assholes. a very small percentage of assholes are cops...a very small percentage of cops are assholes, in my experiences..

I bet you cops meet a lot of assholes...on a daily basis...:-k


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> if you don't get a good grip and twist that collar, the dog can break all your fingers or your wrist with one spin. .


 Reason #1 on that long list. An injury that can retire you with only 2/3s of your normal retirement.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Howard Knauf said:


> Reason #1 on that long list. An injury that can retire you with only 2/3s of your normal retirement.


OK, so your ignoring the fact that if the K9 grabs a dog while in A PRIVATE CITIZENS BACK YARD, any officer here will find a way to diffuse the situation before he will shoot HIS canine partner for aggressing a weaker dog. I am guessing, since breaking up the fight is out, they still shoot the citizens dog and say it attacked a police dog. It would really be tough to pass judgement on the case in point because that may be just what happened. That may be general policy. Who knows?


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

Oh great forum Gods... please lock this thread before I pull out my eyes.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

But but, one time I saw a cop do a good thing in spite of his uneducated self. Sorry, no video - - I did say it was a good thing.

DFrost


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Always by myself Joby. I have done it with both owners standing there with their heads up their **** because they didn't know what to do but watch one bigger dog kill the other. I don't even get close to them until they got their mouths full of the other dog then I grab the aggressors collar from the back palm up sliding it under from the rear and give it a full turn at the same time. Usually the dog loosing the fight will leave as soon as the choked dog lets go. It is a bit different with my dogs because no one is going to quit....but my males are darned carefull about taking a swipe at me. The girls are different and they make me nervous....real nervous because I have grabbed one and ended up on the ground holding the one with two other trying to finish the fight. I have been bit twice by females. I have always had the view that if your afraid of your dogs, you got no business with them having them. Would I grab a dog as strong as a rottie...no. I mean you gotta have some sense. I have some 100+ lb dogs and if you don't get a good grip and twist that collar, the dog can break all your fingers or your wrist with one spin. It only took me one bad grab to find out once you twist the collar...you can't let it go so you better make sure the dog hasn't got the freedom to spin. Breaking up dog fights is an iffy deal anytime, but what are you going to do, sit there and watch it with the owners of the dogs? Seems you dog got hold of the neighbors dog recently....did you sit and watch?
> 
> I was reading a bird dog forum the other day. They were discussing ***** drowning dogs in a pond. They decided it would be a horrible thing to sit and watch your dog getting drown by a ****. They got upset with me when I told them you don't sit and watch your own dog get drown, you get in the water and get the dog out. That was beyond their comprehension believe it or not. I have gotten into bear and dog fights to save my dogs. Winchester was still layed up for 3 mo after that bear. Been in dog and hog fights to save my dogs. If a person is afraid to help his dogs, he has no business hunting them on things that can kill them. Seems pretty simple.



I was just asking...

I personally would never even try to break up a fight between dogs that were not mine, not my business.

I would not call what happened with my dog a fight LOL. and luckily she was not able to grab him, because of his plastic collar on his head. But NO I did not just stand there...I strung her up. I have had more than a couple dogs attacked while walking. This dog has been bitten a few times in her legs by some anklebiters..including that dog. I have never had to let any of my dogs engage a loose dog, except one with that GSD, because he was coming hard and fast and was not messing around...a few others have been bitten by loose dogs, but not dogs that stood a chance if I was to let my dogs engage. I usually wait for the owners to get them, or kick them. 

I dont want to end up the bad guy, with the big mean vicious dog...

I know what you mean about people just standing there and watching....I bet they would kick into gear if I let the dog grab them, instead of stringing them up...letting them take the abuse...seems like they just dont get it sometimes..

I have dealt with bullbreeds and big mollosers mostly... had a few yard fights over the years.

I would drag the dogs to a tie out, hook one up (the dog that did NOT have the hold) pull them out til the tie out was tight...straddle the dog with the hold and use something to pop them off, and walk them backwards, away from the other dog...this was the only way I could do it by myself, without the other dog coming in on the one I just pulled off, most were at or over 100 lbs, and serious intent on fighting eachother, it was never a case where one dog was the aggressor, and the other dog did not want to fight, so that was the best way for me.

It was pretty tough to do.

That was different though, the dogs I had to do it with were the type to bite and hold, that is safer to work with than dogs that are just trying to tear eachother up. So, there was time to keep cool, find something to use to break them, and get it done.

In public, I have had 2 dogs get ahold of other dogs, that were not of fighting type dogs, and amazingly both times, those 2 dogs outed themselves with a command or two, in those cases one dog was a smallish dog, and another was a K9. I was very thankful for that, and to this day am not sure how that worked, only thing I can figure is they knew they were not supposed to fight..because those same dogs would not out on command in my yard, with a dog they really wanted to have a go with...

If in public I would use your method if I had to, and hope for the best, what else are you gonna do? But to expect a police officer to get in the middle of dog fight is still very unrealistic to me...under most circumstances. 

I was at a certification where a handler brought in his DA GSD too soon, with another DA mal, that was an ugly one, one handler got bit pretty bad, when he got his dog off.


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## Courtney DuCharme (Feb 5, 2011)

Matthew Grubb said:


> Oh great forum Gods... please lock this thread before I pull out my eyes.


 
I feel the same way- this has turned into an attack thread of our LE members........ it's wrong, and no one is listening/understanding what they are trying to explain to them and at this point- it's random videos, over the top "what if" scenarios, and BS.


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## Victoria Custis (Apr 5, 2011)

Nobody is hearing the owner's actual complaint. Or, at least 50% of it.

It's not so much that the dog was shot, because that could have been totally reasonable. The reason for being in the backyard was reasonable. The method of searching was reasonable. Then think of how it actually happened: Left hand tied up with leash, right hand with flash light, it's dark, possibly had to do something quick. Out of the three dogs, go figure, it's the sweet innocent "pitty" (aren't they all) who just happens to be the aggressive one.

The owner even admits the cop could have used alternate weaponry to deal with scrappy. He never commits to saying Scrappy would never attack another dog. He found it reasonable that both Scrappy was aggressive and that he possibly needed to be dealt with.

Half the problem is that the cop didn't hold a candle-lit prayer vigil afterwards. "He didn't even say sorry."

And for lack of a video, there sure are a lot of strong opinions on the character of the officer. 

But what I do know. I just do agility.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Victoria Custis said:


> Out of the three dogs, go figure, it's the sweet innocent "pitty" (aren't they all) who just happens to be the aggressive one.


Wow, something against this breed maybe? ....:roll:

I agree, this thread has taken a hard crash into a brick wall.
It is one thing to have an *opinion*, but to start posting even more awful videos and bashing LEO is too much.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Carol Boche said:


> Wow, something against this breed maybe? ....:roll:
> 
> I love pits, but one thing a pit will do easily is fight another dog, everyone should know that...LOL.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Courtney DuCharme said:


> I feel the same way- this has turned into an attack thread of our LE members........ it's wrong, and no one is listening/understanding what they are trying to explain to them and at this point- it's random videos, over the top "what if" scenarios, and BS.


 I dont see where anyone is attacking any of this boards LE members. I cannot see how with clean eyes thats how you viewed it. 
The problem is that it is the typical police officer traits of protecting their own and closing ranks which has made people push the issue about what other police officers think of what other police officers have done. 
No one has accused any LE officers on this board of any of these shooting dog acts, nor should they. All the K9 handlers I see post on this forum come across as good blokes, and people with high integrity. 
I listen to what they say about dogs and their deployment and I learn from them.
I also think you have to understand that Howard and Don enjoy bantering with each other and pushing each other. I dont see any malice with them. I actually think they respect each other. 
But its good to see that not everyone thinks LEO's are sacred cows, and its good to see LEO's who will speak up and put forward their sides of the story when questioned.


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## Victoria Custis (Apr 5, 2011)

Carol Boche said:


> Wow, something against this breed maybe? ....:roll:


In my opinion, Carol, selective breeding of an animal isn't the same as racism. 

Humans have intervened to make breeds what they are based on whatever function the dog is supposed to do.

Pitbull fans want it both ways. They want every nifty trait a fighting dog brings ("the heart", "the determination"", but they don't like to actually talk about fighting.

It's called having one's cake and eating it too. So, put down the fork and stop rolling your eyes at me.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Victoria Custis said:


> In my opinion, Carol, selective breeding of an animal isn't the same as racism.
> 
> Humans have intervened to make breeds what they are based on whatever function the dog is supposed to do.
> 
> ...


Okay....:roll:


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I am not saying anyone has done anything wrong, but, these discussions do make me wonder why, in the LE's view, it is my responsibility if they are running around my property unannouced at night. If I picked up a gun to go see what the hell was going on, because they couldn't take a second for just one of the 15 officers chasing some blind, crippled perp, they would shoot me and it would be deemed my fault. And do you think I am not going out in my own yard with a gun if I hear something going on? What I have been saying is that if they are above god himself and have the right to enter a persons property unannouced, THEN I AM NOT LIABLE FOR WHAT HAPPENS WHILE YOU ARE THERE. I am just Mr. Good Citizen having dinner with wifey and the kids. If you want to be safe when on the property, better let me know so I can tell you where all the hot wires are for the electric fences because I don't want to listen to y'all squeal like babies when you walk into them. :grin:


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Carol, I believe you started this. LOL


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## Victoria Custis (Apr 5, 2011)

Carol Boche said:


> Okay....:roll:


I'm not sure what you're trying to say, Carol. But you're coming off as a snooty-patooty.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Carol, I believe you started this. LOL


Yeah....me and my opinions dangit....ugh](*,)]](*,)

I still maintain that something else could have been tried. It doesn't take anymore time to tase something as it does to shoot it. 
That is the only opinion I have. Being in the LE field myself, I am not going to get into the other discussions going on. 

All people make mistakes, and I believe Howard said it, it is true that the bad gets thrown out to us A LOT more than the good, and I don't agree with that at all. 

I remember when LE and a K9 came through my folks yard one night....my mom was out on the deck calling the dog (as the GSD looked just like the one we had at the time) and I said "Mom, that is not Kona".......just as I said that, an officer walked up and said "I was just coming to your door to notify you that an officer and his dog are on a search for a suspect, please go inside and lock your door and do not let your dogs out." 

Nice guys, and after they were done, they came back and apologized for the notifying officer not getting to the house faster. 

They did not want conflict with anyone or any dogs, so one of the non-K9 officers was going door to door notifying people. 
They obviously had enough officers there on scene to do that. Maybe it was not the case in this story. 

But to sit there and say it was a pitbull and that is WHY it happened because they are ALL that way is ludicrous. It's too bad they don't report all the dog bites and fights that happen between the "off-breeds"....GEESH!!!


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Victoria Custis said:


> I'm not sure what you're trying to say, Carol. But you're coming off as a snooty-patooty.


Take it how you wish. You are the one that came in here and after only 2 posts, you pretty much blame the pitbull breed as the reason this happened. 
Any breed can fight.....any breed can be territorial and only the bully breeds get their time in the limelight. 

Having had several pits, and some at one time, and NEVER having a aggressive dog issue with them, I find your comment about them being to blame ludicrous.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> I was just asking...
> 
> I personally would never even try to break up a fight between dogs that were not mine, not my business.
> 
> ...


Joby, I never said it was a favorite past time, but you got to picture what it was like at one time with about 25 big terriers here. Once I figured out it was almost always the males, things calmed down a lot. I still keep a hot shot by the door and take hot shots hunting when hunting more than one dog. It is always a risk breaking dogs up but I am responsible for what my dogs do. I don't have the luxury of sitting back and watching. You might think back to Jennifer's Jager when she posted about Jager removing 2 1" plugs of hide and meat from her bulldogs back. That was a 14 week old pup. Higgins and Hunter hit it one time. Hunter took his first swipe and Higgins had one ear split in half. Higgins took a swipe and Hunters right lip was gone forever. I was husling to break that one up and it took a cattle prod to back the other off while I held one and got him to a separate pen.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> OK, so your ignoring the fact that if the K9 grabs a dog while in A PRIVATE CITIZENS BACK YARD, any officer here will find a way to diffuse the situation before he will shoot HIS canine partner for aggressing a weaker dog. I am guessing, since breaking up the fight is out, they still shoot the citizens dog and say it attacked a police dog. It would really be tough to pass judgement on the case in point because that may be just what happened. That may be general policy. Who knows?


 Your twisting things around Don. You are also making assumptions based on a one line answer. A PSD is on a lead. The handler has some semblance of control and a tool in which to diffuse the situation. How you draw the line from grabbing a strange dogs' collar (if there is one) to shooting an innocent dog that a PSD might grab and refuse to let go is beyond me. Something very bad must have happened to you that makes you believe we would do that. 

I'm done with the hypetheticals. I made myself clear that there is no pat answer on how to deal with a dog attack on a PSD (not a PSD attack on a civvie dog). There are so many variables and circumstances involved when things like this happen and absolutely no-one can give you the answer you want because we cannot predict what will happen. Like I said before....we make decisions in fractions of a second while you take as much time as you need to refute our actions. 

Just as there are the situational variables...you have individual handlers AND their backup officers who may react as well so, sorry, can't give you a crystal clear answer. Oh wait, yes I can.....Shit happens=D>


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## Victoria Custis (Apr 5, 2011)

Carol Boche said:


> Take it how you wish. You are the one that came in here and after only 2 posts, you pretty much blame the pitbull breed as the reason this happened.
> Any breed can fight.....any breed can be territorial and only the bully breeds get their time in the limelight.
> 
> Having had several pits, and some at one time, and NEVER having a aggressive dog issue with them, I find your comment about them being to blame ludicrous.


I think you're the one being ludicrous. 

Again, the "pittie" in question (to the exclusion of two other dogs) was afraid of his own shadow, but the owner is basically admitting it was reasonable to use some force against the dog... just not as much as was used. He wants it both ways too. "Snappy wasn't aggressive, _but if he was_ I admit one might have to use force against him." Getting into that last hypothetical indicates he's not so sure about ol' Snappy. Most importantly they didn't get an apology. 

Everything which bleeding-heart animal advocates love about "true" pitbulls never has anything to do with what they were bred for. Did the hair triggers for animal aggression just up and vanish since they became fashionable to rescue? 

Right. :roll:


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Victoria Custis said:


> I think you're the one being ludicrous.
> 
> Again, the "pittie" in question (to the exclusion of two other dogs) was afraid of his own shadow, but the owner is basically admitting it was reasonable to use some force against the dog... just not as much as was used. He wants it both ways too. "Snappy wasn't aggressive, _but if he was_ I admit one might have to use force against him." Getting into that last hypothetical indicates he's not so sure about ol' Snappy. Most importantly they didn't get an apology.
> 
> ...


<sigh> Okay.


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## Victoria Custis (Apr 5, 2011)

Someone's got nothing.

:lol:


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Victoria Custis said:


> Someone's got nothing.
> 
> :lol:


Oh no, trust me. That is not it at all. :roll::-#](*,):-k


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## Victoria Custis (Apr 5, 2011)

Oh, yes it is.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Move along, move along, nothing to see here. Best to go back to agility and dock diving with your Chessie...

Incidentally, that house where the pit bull and corgi were involved were just two blocks from a house where me and my husband used to live. That was craziness, trust me...


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Matthew Grubb said:


> Oh great forum Gods... please lock this thread before I pull out my eyes.


My thoughts exactly !!!](*,):-& 

Victoria your comments about pitts are ignorant, the breed is not any better or worse than any other, save it for the pet boards.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Incidentally, that house where the pit bull and corgi were involved were just two blocks from a house where me and my husband used to live. That was craziness, trust me...


 Just for my personal edification...any idea what the deal was with the occupants?


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I don't personally know those involved or anything, we moved away about 2 or 3 years before that. The neighborhood was not bad at all, like working middle class on our block to upper middle class just a few blocks away. You can tell from the video it was a relatively nice modest home. Definitely not the ghetto or anything. It was just a huge hubbub in our city though. That plus a taser incident almost had all tasers, including for the cops, banned from the city limits. :roll: I'd have to agree...as much as I would not want to be tazed, I'd rather that than dead!


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Move along, move along, nothing to see here. Best to go back to agility and dock diving with your Chessie...


I am glad someone said it. I have been refraining from saying it as what I typed out would have got me into trouble. LOL 

Shouldn't even have a Chessie, with as much as she knows about Pits. :twisted:


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

ok, I understand this topic is going nowhere: locked.


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