# Not my video... but impressive!



## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

This video popped up on facebook the other day. Very impressed. Spoke to the guy and he said the dog has never seen a piece of food on the track. The fact he's doing this with a 10 week old pup he couldn't have had for more than a few weeks is impressive. May have him down for a seminar in the spring sometime. I wonder how he accomplished this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PE-BTWGhhYM&sns=em


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

I don't know his method. He could have put the food scent on the objects, he could have given the pup those toys to play with and feed him for playing with them. now the pup searches because he know food will come when he finds them. Lastly if you feed your pup on the track then he has had food on the track.


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## Catherine Gervin (Mar 12, 2012)

go SMIDGE!!!


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## scott zimmerman (Dec 7, 2009)

Looks to me like he is using Dick Staal's methods. And no, the articles are not scented with food. It's human odor the dog is alerting to and the dog is taught articles first before being taught he can use human odor via the track to locate those items and thus get rewarded.


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## Rob Maltese (Jan 8, 2014)

Timothy Saunders said:


> I don't know his method. He could have put the food scent on the objects, he could have given the pup those toys to play with and feed him for playing with them. now the pup searches because he know food will come when he finds them. Lastly if you feed your pup on the track then he has had food on the track.


I sure would hope that he wouldn't give his dog nails and washers to play with as toys....



scott zimmerman said:


> Looks to me like he is using Dick Staal's methods. And no, the articles are not scented with food. It's human odor the dog is alerting to and the dog is taught articles first before being taught he can use human odor via the track to locate those items and thus get rewarded.


Anywhere to find a book or videos on this method?


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

I liked the low tech tracking cord. Reminded me of a story a NAPWDA MT told me. He was certifying tracking dogs and this guy showed up looking like he was a country ******* hick just coming up off the farm. All these cops were there and such but no one wanted to be first dog to test. He volunteered to go. His tracking line was a piece of frayed clothesline cord that had multiple knots from where it had broken and been knotted back together. In fact, it snapped during the test and the guy just put another knot in it and continued. That dog tracked so clean and sharp that no one else wanted to test. The MT was laughing saying they just put all their dogs back up and drove off to other seminar venues. That was the only dog to test that day.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Very impressive and nice work for the age and the dog will grow with a strong foundation...pretty sure its staals method he has an E book probably a link on his website.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Mike's a cool dude, good video, thanks for sharing...


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> Mike's a cool dude, good video, thanks for sharing...


Ah.. you know him? He said he was free after Feb for a seminar on that tracking method. Haven't called him yet but trying to work my club into pony'ing up the funds


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I started most of my dogs off tracking without food. A lot of handlers did so in Switzerland. The Landseer never had food on the track and when I used it once to slow him down, he walked over it.

My elder GSD started off tracking without food as a pup without any problem but he always used his nose from the moment we got him at 8 weeks. If I "disappeared"whilst he was sniffing at something, he never looked up to see where I was - just put his nose to the ground and found me. I didn't realise it at first but my husband watched him and told me.

I never scent the articles or put food underneath them, the reward comes from my pocket.

At the Club we walk behind each handler, observing how the dog tracks but although I have read many books on tracking and been to seminars, I have always had problems in putting what I learned into practice. I think I've got there now but the next dog will tell.

I could read the Fila Brasileiro very well when he was tracking and hear his snorting! But I resort to it if I can't tell if the dog is on the track - maybe some low smelling kibble about 10 yards before a corner.


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## Tom Cawood (Feb 3, 2008)

I had Mike come do a seminar with our group showing us this method of tracking and would highly recommend giving it a try. I know the young dogs that I have started off using this method are coming along real nice. 
I find that using this method is alot more enjoyable and a whole lot less time consuming (at least for me). Its pretty neat to have a four month old pup tracking 150 to 200 yard tracks and indicating on various different articles.
What I found most interesting in Mike's method is how quickly you can move to different type surfaces be it gravel, concrete, dirt or asphalt. The pups just have a high degree of desire to track to the article. There will be things one would have to do to slow a pup down if they were wanting to pursue sport type tracking titles, but for police style tracking where you are wanting to get from point "A" to point "B" in a fast accurate way with the pup showing you articles that had been dropped along the way, this method works great.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I started most of my dogs off tracking without food. A lot of handlers did so in Switzerland. The Landseer never had food on the track and when I used it once to slow him down, he walked over it.
> 
> My elder GSD started off tracking without food as a pup without any problem but he always used his nose from the moment we got him at 8 weeks. If I "disappeared"whilst he was sniffing at something, he never looked up to see where I was - just put his nose to the ground and found me. I didn't realise it at first but my husband watched him and told me.
> 
> ...


Gillian I would suggest you were very lucky in not having to use food.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

brad robert said:


> Gillian I would suggest you were very lucky in not having to use food.


I don't think luck has anything to do with it. For me it lies in the fact that some dogs have very high tracking drives.

A good idea is to lay a short track (10-15 m) for the pup with some low smelling kibble at the end of it and just walk near to the start but don't stop. If the pup strains towards the track, obviously follow it. If he walks past it - no harm done. However, it would be a good idea to start all pups off on a no-food track (the food at the end indicates the end of the track if indicating articles hasn't been taught)

Afterwards by all means lay food if you wish.

The crushed vegetation sends off an odour which is what the dog should be following and not just nosing for food.


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## Nick Hrycaj (Mar 30, 2014)

Any ideas on why so little verbal praise or feedback at the article?


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## Nick Hrycaj (Mar 30, 2014)

Food vs no food can come into play big in the real world. I had to get away from any food on the track with my police dog because he was getting into real world trash along deployment tracks. With food/praise only at articles that's no longer a worry


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Nick Hrycaj said:


> Any ideas on why so little verbal praise or feedback at the article?


i "THINK" that the food reward is a form feedback, and I did hear quite a few "good girls" in there as well, moreso as the track went on..


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

brad robert said:


> Gillian I would suggest you were very lucky in not having to use food.


 
I also have a dog taught without food, and he is an amazing tracker.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Brian McQuain said:


> I also have a dog taught without food, and he is an amazing tracker.


Brian I don't doubt that for a minute and have a dog trained without food myself for tracking (man trailing type competition) and she was trained in a similar method as that pup in the video. Possibly im wrong but I thought Gillian trained in IPO so my comments were directed in that sense.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

brad robert said:


> Brian I don't doubt that for a minute and have a dog trained without food myself for tracking (man trailing type competition) and she was trained in a similar method as that pup in the video. Possibly im wrong but I thought Gillian trained in IPO so my comments were directed in that sense.


I have trained in Swiss Working Dog Trials (national), IPO, Swiss Schutzhund (national) and, of course IPO.

For me tracking is an exercise where the dog has to use its nose. How you teach this has absolutely nothing to do with whatever venue the dog will end up in in my mind.

In sport trials it is the only discipline where the dog has to act independently of its owner.

I miss posts on here relating to the laying and working out of a track. To know why your pup / dog is reacting as he does on his first few tracks, it is absolutely essential to know a number of things. There might not be any wind blowing in your face but, light a match and place it at ground level and watch if it flickers!!

Sun on a track that has been laid before the sun came out can affect the track negatively.

The heat rises during the day so when tracking in the evening should be given consideration.

It is better not to lay the first tracks for the newcomer near to a forest (deer and fox, etc. scents).

Laying with the wind in your back will prevent the Newcomer from sniffing out the article or food too soon.

After a number of successful tracks, after maybe IPO1, the dog should be introduced to all sorts of distractions as mentioned above and more.

For me it is so:

The police or army dog has to find the criminal in whatever manner and as fast as he can.

The sport has to find the articles but in a manner that is not dependent on speed but on preciseness but the preciseness is all part of the training. 

Whatever the venue, the dog must independently lead you to the end of the track or the criminal.

Very often this fails due to the lack of the handler in his dog. Trust in one's dog is essential.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> i "THINK" that the food reward is a form feedback, and I did hear quite a few "good girls" in there as well, moreso as the track went on..


For me the food has often been a form of feedback. Better still would be the ability to read the dog precisely. However I place low-smelling kibble long before the corners appear and never shortly afterwards, giving the dog to the possibility to shorten corners.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Having first trained my older GSD in SAR and real world trailing/air scent I had one hell of a time teaching him sport tracking. If he would pick up the article scent while on a different leg it didn't matter. He would leave the leg and go directly to the article. 
Same with 90 degree corners. His SAR nose work was to get to the "victim" "article" etc so why do this silly corner.

I've been told by a number of people that teaching deep nose, sport type tracking first can benefit the air scent or trailing dog but doing it the other way around can cause confusion. It certainly did for us.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

I agree Bob. I've seen the same thing also. If folks want to get a tracking title on their SAR dog, then they need to do that first. I think you might be able to do it *if* (and that's a big *if* ) you structure it very clearly and teach the required deep nose and then keep that structure with associated dog clothes.
But once a dog learns to use how to perform more efficiently with trailing it's very hard to make them do the slow and time consuming tracking.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

We did do it but not without a lot of work. 
The biggest change was going to a tracking harness for sport. The SAR trailing and air scent was all off lead. Much more natural work then sport tracking.


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## Aaron Gates (Feb 25, 2013)

I got to train a little bit with Steve and Mike. Take a look at Steve's PSD Elmo. Shows an adult dog in action using the same method.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V30bx6ylS8A


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

That was great to watch.

It has been suggested on here that "deep nose" tracking is "Sport tracking". 

Do you agree?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Gillian Schuler said:


> That was great to watch.
> 
> It has been suggested on here that "deep nose" tracking is "Sport tracking".
> 
> Do you agree?



I think the terms, tracking, trailing, air scent, scout tracking are often used differently by different people. 
I only agree to the point that a "real" tracking dog would use everything available to find the quarry/victim/etc. 
That may be deep nose, air scent, vegetation, cutting corners, whatever. 

"I" use the term only for sport tracking. Over here the dog will loose points if it tries to air scent on a Schutzhund track. Trust me, I know. 8-[

In the early yrs of street K9 many Schutzhund dogs were brought over. It was found that the "sport" tracking dogs were to slow to follow a running perp. 
I believe it can be an excellent foundation for "real world" tracking but "TO ME", right or wrong it refers to sport tracking only. 

Where I live (St. Louis Mo) we were one of the first cities in the USA to use K9s on the street. That was back in the late 50s. I believe Baltimore Maryland and St. Paul Minnesota were ahead of us.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Bob, we'd have to sit down at a table and explain what we each mean.

Tracking, for me, is searching out a track laid by human, animal, etc. where the vegetation is crushed and gives off a scent, which alters over time to in end effect, often giving off the scent of the who laid the track, i.e. particles of skin, etc.

Police train their dogs (over here at least) to seach intensively, i.e. nose to the ground, until the dog picks up the scent of the hidden criminal where obviously he changes to air scenting. 

No air scenting is apparent when the dog, sport, army or Police are following a track.

What is actually "real life tracking?

In SAR the dog is air scenting, not tracking. For me these are two completely different disciplines.

That a sport dog is too slow to follow a perp is in my mind ridiculous. We only slow them down to abide by the competition rules. A dog who is supposed to track down a perp is allowed to search at his own speed - pretty damn fast. 

Why on earth would one want to import a dog trained through obedience to do sport tracking although I am sure one could apply such dogs to police work if they were intensive trackers.

I suspect other factors came into play as to why they were not suitable for police work.

So, I'm off to Germany tomorrow for a few days, tracking down my ancestors :smile:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I "think" were on the same page just different text. :grin:

Your definition of police tracking is my point. 
The dog keeps his nose to the ground til he starts air scenting the hidden criminal. Thus "real" tracking!
Same thing with a SAR dog other then, yes, it's more about air scenting. 

In sport tracking (schutzhund) the dog must keep his nose "deep". The disturbed soil, grass, etc is the means to the end, NOT the air scent. 
That was one of my problems when I started Schutzhund tracking. My SAR dog would leave the first leg if he air scented any article on any leg of the track. That's where keeping the "deep Nose" was all about sport work "for me". 
Thunder struggled at first and I would get looks like "WTF" I know that article is over there. Why should I follow this track?!! 

In AKC tracking they are much more relaxed. It's pass or fail. No points + or - . 
If the dog gets down the track it doesn't have to be on top of it. It can ever wander a bit off the line. Doesn't need that nose to the ground. It finds the articles and even short cuts the corners a bit, it passes. 

Terminology sucks! ](*,):lol: :wink:


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