# WTF?? How NOT to rappel with a dog!!



## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7NGtpDBz3k&feature=youtube_gdata_player

These guys are the military expert dog trainers???? WOW


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

mike suttle said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7NGtpDBz3k&feature=youtube_gdata_player
> 
> These guys are the military expert dog trainers???? WOW


I have to agree with you, I don't know what military does this type of training, but from the equipment, the training of the individual handler and the procedure for the dog, it is awful. There is always more than one way of doing things, but when I see this, I can think of at least 3- 5 ways of how to do it so much better, quicker, faster, safer, more confidence based, and actually get practical application out of it. Its sad to watch....


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

mike suttle said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7NGtpDBz3k&feature=youtube_gdata_player
> 
> These guys are the military expert dog trainers???? WOW


The Baden Boys may not know much about dog training but they sure can lay on the BS for the Reality TV shows. Almost as funny as the Thai guy having his dog de pants him LMAO


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Ouch! Those poor dogs. They look like they are just trying to go to their happy place.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Jody Butler said:


> I have to agree with you, I don't know what military does this type of training, but from the equipment, the training of the individual handler and the procedure for the dog, it is awful. There is always more than one way of doing things, but when I see this, I can think of at least 3- 5 ways of how to do it so much better, quicker, faster, safer, more confidence based, and actually get practical application out of it. Its sad to watch....


Yeah, this is almost unbelievable it is so bad. There are indeed several ways to do this so much better and safer. This is really a cluster ****!


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## CJ Neubert (Sep 7, 2009)

WTF indeed! It is a miracle that none of the dogs came out of their harness.


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## Erica Boling (Jun 17, 2008)

What a train wreck.... It was painful to watch....


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

any vids of the proper best way to do it?


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

LOL if that's the scariest thing she's ever done, she really needs to get out more.


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## Jami Craig (Jul 5, 2010)

That dog wins most tolerant dog of the year award...I would have expected it to bite her in the face when she first yanked if off the top of the platform....poor pup.....


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

Ok, I'm not going to say that there weren't issues with this. I really didn't like the harness for the dog for one and the lack of a seconday safety line distrubed me. It's training, no one and no dog should be at risk.

But I will ask, how many of the posters above have:

A) Actually rappelled? ( I have) 
B) Actually rappelled from more than 50' (I have) 
C) Actually rappelled from 75' with a dog attached? (I have not)

And for the SAR folks, (or others), being lifted with your dog doesn't count. That's what I've seen most SAR teams train for. Most don't train for rappelling over an edge with your dog. Lifting and low angle rope maybe but most dogs don't need assistance on low angle work, only people. If this was the trainees first time rappelling over an edge with a dog I'm not surpirsed of their responses.

Just going over the edge in control while rappellinig takes some pratice. I've seen very few people make it look easy. Going over with an extra 75 lbs swinging free behind you is very difficult. 

I haven't jumped from a plane with a dog but I believe that would be easier than going over the edge of a building or climbing tower with a dog.

No doubt they could have made it a lot easier on the candiates and the dogs. But don't fault the trainees and critique their reaction and abilities until you have actuallly tried it.

Also, credit the dogs some as well. My guess is 90% of the dogs handled by 90% of the folks on this site would crap themselves just being pulled up the tower. Mine probably would the first time as she's never been exposed to it. And she'd tear the hell out of her paws and nails, and probably me as well, to keep from going over the side as well. Most dogs understand self-preservation quite well.

Just saying... ](*,)

Craig


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

Daniel Lybbert said:


> any vids of the proper best way to do it?


I found this on You tube. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IBwNbz87zg

But they kind of cheat here. The ropes they descend on are suspended above them so they are kind of "hoisted" over the edge. They don't have to really put themseleves over as they would if they were on a roof.

in this the dog is hooked in front and rides on down on the guys thighs. I'm not sure I'd free rappel like that. I'd want an automatic tensioner on the line. 

Here's another: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOoTUAPY91E
This looks more like a SAR training. Still no safety line though!!! And in this one the edge is sloped before it drops off giving the handler an easier transition into the rappel. It's not a 90 degree over the edge like in the OP video. The harness for the dog is much more appropriate and the automatic tensioner is used. 

Craig


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Craig Snyder said:


> Ok, I'm not going to say that there weren't issues with this. I really didn't like the harness for the dog for one and the lack of a seconday safety line distrubed me. It's training, no one and no dog should be at risk.
> 
> But I will ask, how many of the posters above have:
> 
> ...


Hey Craig,
I wont speak for anyone else on here who has posted so far, but I know for sure at least 3 of us has done this. I agree that the dogs seem very compliant (or have learned to be helpless, but either way they are not fighting this at all) My issue is the rig they have the dog in, and the general lack of control they have over the dog. I have rapelled with the dog strapped to my chest, strapped to my back, and in a controlled position between my legs. All three of these positions offer WAY more control than what was shown here in this video.
I'm not critiquing the trainees at all.........its certainly not their fault. But its the fault of their commanders who obviously sent them to learn with someone who has no idea themselves.


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

mike suttle said:


> I'm not critiquing the trainees at all.........its certainly not their fault. But its the fault of their commanders who obviously sent them to learn with someone who has no idea themselves.


This I totally agree with!!!!

They are lucky the one dog didn't get a spinal fracture.

Craig


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Are the trainees actually part of some Military organization or just reality show participants? Do any of the Baden Instructors have the right to wear the uniform or insignia of Canada or any other country?

CQB K9 (the other rappelling video) is based in Colorado (used to be outside of Colorado Springs but now in the Southern part)
Alex Dunbar the owner, trained (a couple of times) with a small group I was part of a few years ago.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

We were better trained than that when we did it in the late 60's and early 70's. The harnesses (dog) fit better as well. we did learn to muzzle them though. That's one lesson hard learned halfway between the skids and the ground. ha ha ha.

DFrost


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## Gina Pasieka (Apr 25, 2010)

That was honestly painful to watch. The dogs are completely unsupported taking their entire weight during the free fall in their axilla. You almost have to hope that someone gets bit in the ass so they rethink this method.


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## Barry Connell (Jul 25, 2010)

mike suttle said:


> Hey Craig,
> I wont speak for anyone else on here who has posted so far, but I know for sure at least 3 of us has done this.......My issue is the rig they have the dog in, and the general lack of control they have over the dog.


Make that 4 if ya weren't counting me Mike, with MUCH better equipment and much better instruction in a darkened elevator shaft (LA or San Diego County instructing, can't remember which)


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

Here is a video of one of our guys training the Rappel with his dog.

http://youtu.be/HchBdWpv2Vw


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Matthew,

That's the people that should have been on the BBC TV show not the Baden Clowns. Proper instruction and proper equipment, what a concept? The original video didn't look like the two "candidates" even knew how to rappel without a dog? The only thing I saw positive on the BBC video was the dogs temperament.
Most dogs would be freaking out suspended like that.


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Matthew,
> 
> That's the people that should have been on the BBC TV show not the Baden Clowns. Proper instruction and proper equipment, what a concept? The original video didn't look like the two "candidates" even knew how to rappel without a dog? The only thing I saw positive on the BBC video was the dogs temperament.
> Most dogs would be freaking out suspended like that.


After watching the other video, I got the impression that the dogs in the BBC show may have done it before, but not the handlers.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Here is an equally impressive video from the same TV vseries, concerning bite work...#-o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F__ISzVLiwg&feature=relmfu


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> Here is an equally impressive video from the same TV vseries, concerning bite work...#-o
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F__ISzVLiwg&feature=relmfu


RETARDED OR RETARTED?

Little Man and Leggy Girl deserve each other, neither has a clue.
Of course the "expert" who lets a novice wearing shorts to take a bite with a raggedy sleeve cover on a National TV show. Isn't much better :-(


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> RETARDED OR RETARTED?
> 
> Little Man and Leggy Girl deserve each other, neither has a clue.
> Of course the "expert" who lets a novice wearing shorts to take a bite with a raggedy sleeve cover on a National TV show. Isn't much better :-(


or the narrator...saying that dog will break someones arm  which I admit is possible, but not clearly evident in that video of him.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

It would be easy to rag on the weak, shallow bite with the dog "looking" like WG show line breeding but I'm guessing the training may have a bit to add to it. 
I can't see an arm getting broke with that bite unless the "decoy" falls with the arm folded under him/her.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Judging by the wear on that sleeve cover (as low on the arm as possible) I'd say if anything those dogs may break fingers, not arm bones. Ha Ha


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Brits sure seems clueless, hard to believe they never learn from Germans/Belgians etc etc.


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## Louise Jollyman (Jun 2, 2009)

Thanks Faisal!!!!! 

According to the blurb, these were anti-rhino poaching dogs in South Africa.

The Brits were no different than the other idiots of various nationalities that appear on TV regularly. Just goes to show the TV in Britain these days is no better than the US


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

I don't understand why they had to go to South Africa to shoot this. Did no one of decent quality want to entertain them closer to home?


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## Lucia Papp (Apr 21, 2012)

I don't think that Mickey had to worry too much about the dog going for his neck . . .


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Louise Jollyman said:


> Thanks Faisal!!!!!
> 
> According to the blurb, these were anti-rhino poaching dogs in South Africa.
> 
> The Brits were no different than the other idiots of various nationalities that appear on TV regularly. Just goes to show the TV in Britain these days is no better than the US


Hey Lou, we have matching avatars! You mean a real anti poacjing outfit! these guys/gals/dogs don't stand a chance against real poachers. The term clueless comes to mind again!


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## Wayne Dodge (Mar 7, 2008)

Unprofessional, obviously Inexperienced, and to be quite plain Ridiculous…


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## Sarah Atlas (Dec 15, 2008)

Oh God..When we repel it nothing like that ugh poor dogs. last time they trust their handlers


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Craig Snyder said:


> Ok, I'm not going to say that there weren't issues with this. I really didn't like the harness for the dog for one and the lack of a seconday safety line distrubed me. It's training, no one and no dog should be at risk.
> 
> But I will ask, how many of the posters above have:
> 
> ...


The vid is pretty ugly, there is just no denying that.

Surprised no one mentioned the handler being upside down with her foot trapped under the rope lol. At least she had a back up belay and people to bail her out of trouble up there. Preventing it would have been better though. The "couldn't have worked out better" comment is just not true:razz:

Here is a non SAR approved rappel with a difficult edge transition for you Craig, since we need credentials to have an opinion


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Who's the hot chick?


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Here is a non SAR approved rappel with a difficult edge transition for you Craig, since we need credentials to have an opinion


Hi Jennifer,

I know your credentials Jennifer and hopefully my posting wan't taken the wrong way. I thought the rappel vid was very bad too. But my intent was more on the criticism of the trainees. As some one else said, its not their fault they got sent there and unless you've done it, yes, unless you know the trainees background and tried it, you shouldn't comment that much on them.

The instructors are free game however! :smile:

I only wish I lived in an area like you do where I could have the opportunity to try that edge!!! A little too old now to uproot and start over unfortunately! Besides, while my downhill isn't bad, I doubt very much my ski skills are at a level to be up there in the powder with you! Now if you want to come ski on our ice-packed, powderless hills in PA, maybe I can hang with ya!

I'll have to be content to stick to the woods of PA and do the occassional building/structure rappel with the fire service. 

We have little need or call to do any extreme rappels with our K9's like you get to do and need to do for avalanche territory. Hats off to ya! =D> 

Craig


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Here is a non SAR approved rappel with a difficult edge transition for you Craig, since we need credentials to have an opinion



You rock!!!


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> The vid is pretty ugly, there is just no denying that.
> 
> Surprised no one mentioned the handler being upside down with her foot trapped under the rope lol. At least she had a back up belay and people to bail her out of trouble up there. Preventing it would have been better though. The "couldn't have worked out better" comment is just not true:razz:
> 
> Here is a non SAR approved rappel with a difficult edge transition for you Craig, since we need credentials to have an opinion


I would so love to have the contract for resurfacing your teams skis! $$$$$$$$$$$$


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Matthew Grubb said:


> I would so love to have the contract for resurfacing your teams skis! $$$$$$$$$$$$


You would be poor. I have to do that rappel with my skis on (no dog) at least a couple times a week on average. You get pretty nimble.

I usually get my skis tuned about once or twice a season, that is it, seriously. Sharp edges are overrated when you are a dog handler. Plus we have a lot of snow here, so it is generally not too icy.


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