# Training dogs/ Raising kids



## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

Just curious what everyone thinks about whats common between training dogs and raising kids. Do you think that handlers that have kids train and handle dogs differently then handlers who do not have kids? Me and the old man had this conversation the other day and I thought that it was interesting.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

If the trainer/parent understands the importance of consistancy I would think it would carry over to the other. 
We've commented on visitors with kids at club. 
"Have you seen the way that little bassad ignores his parents? I think they need to get a goldfish.......a plastic one at that."
Luckily I had my wife to keep me from being such a control freak with the kids. The dogs, however........:grin:


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## Greg Leavitt (Aug 31, 2006)

I kee telling my girlfriend that IF we have kids and the mis behave I will just put the e-collar on them and stick them in their crate and put a sheet over them.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

We were talking about the parent/trainers have a little different outlook from most of the single (childless ) dog owner/trainer has. Maybe not but we concured that there was a difference. You may even look at it as a seasoned trainer vs. new dog owner/trainer. We talked a good deal about it and we were wondering what you guys thought about this. Think about styles of training. Does the style of training differ from the two groups? There are variables like, was the single/trainer a younger sibling, older, or only child in his family. We aren't talking about sorry a$$ no good for nothing parents either. We're talking about parents that wants the best for their children. Both types of trainers that we are talking about are the trainers that want the best dog they can get as well.

I don't want to say what outcome we had with this discussion until we've heard what you guys think. We did have a very interesting talk. How about it, what ya think?


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

"I told you if you don't stop jumping on the bed I'm gonna come in there....."

vs..

"plutz...Plutz.....PLUTZ....POP"


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

That's what we're talking about sort of.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

If they have children or childless, it could have a lot to do with how they themselves were raised. 
With that said, I think a parent with children may have a bit more confidence in their training over a childless parent.
The style of training would be more limited in a new parent/trainer. They haven't seen as many choices as a more expierienced parent/trainer. Again, that would go back to how they were trained themselves, "cause that's the way I learned it".
I think, with expierience we either get more stubborn in what we think is correct, or, we get wiser and more apt to listen to something different.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Lets see - things needed for both

consistency
follow through
not hitting (well we never hit our kids or our dogs)
routines and rituals (schedule, bedtime, meals)
love
playful interaction
patience

I think the main difference is you raise your kids to be self actualizing adults who think on their own and make their own decisions but with a dog you don't want that. You may want a dog that can do a given task somewhat independantly (e.g., scent work, herding) but you want obedience.

One thing I learned from my kids was how to be calm in a trying situation - everyone has had to deal with the baby crying crying crying nonstop and you want to pucnh the wall out. ............. bad parents don't learn and shake the kids and scream and raise the stress level....Good parents but the baby in their "crate" and walk away for a few minutes go recenter themselves. [Boy I am glad I never had a kid with colic, but you know with a dog - when you get to angry to deal with them better to put them away and apprach the problem from a different angle]


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

I think people who train dogs before they have kids turn out to have better behaved kids when they become parents. Most parents I know personally get walked all over by their kids. Before I started training dogs, it didn't bother me at all. After I started working with dogs, I have alot less tollerence for all the crap kids get away with. Sitting on the sofa with peed in shorts, ignoring parents when they are told to come inside while they laugh their "I'm totally ignoring you and I know you're not gonna do anything about it!" laugh. When you see the dogs belonging to these same people, the dogs listen just as well as the kids :roll:

I had family stay with me over xmas, and my sister in law kept telling me I was mean because I didn't give Cujo more food when he was walking around with his food bowl after he had eaten. "Well can't he get a cookie or something then? Look he's still hungry".... ofcourse, this coming from the same person who's kids eat chocolate all day long "so at least they eat SOMETHING". My nephew was sitting in the car with me telling me how he could eat anything he wanted whenever he wanted. All he has to do is refuse to eat and he will get whatever he wants just so he doesn't starve or throw a tantrum.

Then there's the parents who train dogs like they are kids... "well I dont give my kid a cookie for doing what I tell him, so why should I train the dog motivationally! He needs to do what I say when I say it!".

Then there's this one dog owner I know, I dont know if she ever had kids, but she had a Malinois. We told her "don't feed the dog this morning till you go home". Right after OB, before bitework, she was hiding behind the van feeding her dog breakfast because she felt bad for her dog not having had breakfast yet and "look, she's hungry".

When I grew up my parents put us in a playpen with one toy, and we learnt to be able to entertain ourselves. Now all I see is parents letting the kids roam the house from day 1, and dumping a whole box full of toys on the living room floor. I can see the expression on the kids face all overwhelmed not knowing what he should play with, so he doesnt play with anything and gets into all sorts of trouble around the house. "Oh it would be mean to put him in a play pen" :roll:

Maybe my views will change when I have kids, but while I used to really want kids some day, the more time I spend around bratty obnoxious kids that talk to their parents with no respect at 6 years old, the more I question whether I want to deal with it. I would need a wife that is on the same page as me. I wasn't the easiest kid myself, but I wouldn't dream of saying some of the things to my parents that kids I see get away with every day. I'm not talking about raising kids like a boot camp, but basic manners, principals and respect seem to go out the window now.


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## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

My parents both trained dogs - when I used to misbehave I got put in a "down-stay" on the little rug beside my bed to contemplate my misbehavior:wink: .
My sister and I still tease my Mum about her pointing and yelling "go to your rug!" I will state that though Mum was a compulsion trainer she never put us on a prong or e-collar. I do have a photo of me in a harness and leash though - so that might have to do with my current interests.....
Kidding aside - my parents were of the very firm but fair school - kids and dogs should have structure, rules and consequences for misbehavior and should have lots of things to do to keep them busy and out of trouble.


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

Good topic...

I will say, with this dog I have been able to be a lot more consistant in training and it could be related to having raised my kid to 3....or, could be all the reading I've done to raise my confidence in training. This is my 1st dog since having my kid, and did have 2 dogs--not that trained--prior to my kid.

IME, my expectations of my KID have raised (eek, they were pretty high before) and I think it's because I've been experiencing "instant results" with dog (ie: potty training, certain commands) and, with children, or at least, my kid, some things take a bit more time, patience, and that "other angle" that was mentioned earlier...


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Lets see - things needed for both
> 
> consistency
> follow through
> ...


Very true, 

I have kids and being a Dad had helped my dog training and the dog training has helped me be a better Dad. It's weird to say that but I have found it to be true. 

Kids like dogs see it black and white and the easier you can set them up for success the better behaved they both will be. 

For sure a lot of the same reinforcement techniques carry over between kids and dogs. My wife gets pissed at me when I compare it. But then she is one that has let the kids have the full run of the house since day one. She/We are now dealing with broken TVs, Stereos, expensive furniture destroyed most of the appliances something ripped off them in one form or the other etc etc. 

Did the dog do it .... nope!! I did the groundwork with the dog, she did the groundwork with the kids! LOL! Don't get me wrong I love my kids and my wife it's just a funny and true comparison that I live with everyday.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Lynn Said:
kids and dogs should have structure, rules and consequences for misbehavior and should have lots of things to do to keep them busy and out of trouble.

Well said, I think training kids and dogs are so so so much alike.

Trainers that train dogs like Mike spoke about his in laws' kids. They would train dogs the same way, IMO.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Jay, There is a big difference in the two. Ever been arrested for rubbing a one year olds nose in their own poop?


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Jay on a better note, I think it really boils down to one thing, *understanding*. I teach for a living and dog train as another avenue of income. If people can deal in a smart/positive manner and relate on levels that humans can understand, then K9 training is cake! 

Folks who beat their dogs do so because they have the physical power and the lose of mental control to do it. If they did the same thing with a kid, you can bet they would be doing time behind bars, prison bars. Children and dogs/puppies have short attention spans, like me. Training must be fun and rewarding, kids learn new concepts that way and dogs do too.

Lately much has been written on K9 abuse by club members and K9 behavior. I think that the best teachers (K9 & peeps) are the ones who simply care...feel the love! When you exchange views with folks who aren't on the same page, do you tell them that, "You're crazy?" No, it is just showing respect and understanding for different point of view.


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

I have learned alot from training dogs and raising kids (which I have a long way to go because my oldest one is only six  kid that is). One is alot like the other in which at least with me because I like to make the white and black things very clear. You can train and teach with consistancy and repitition with dogs and kids. I do not like to have to ask of things more than once, and I believe that when you clearly let this be known then you have good results. You correct the wrong and praise the correct, its simple. I was wondering if you noticed or not that people with kids are more firm and more disciplined with their dogs and people without kids are not as firm. I know that it is not always the case but what are your thoughts. Don't get me wrong now, Im not saying that people without any kids are not good handlers or trainers. I for one see the likeness between dogs and kids and one side has helped the other for me and vise versa. So what do you think?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I asked my son about thais. His comment was;
"Where was all this motivational stuff when you were raising us"?


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

Good one Bob. Just tell him with age comes wisdom. Thats why we have kids when we are young. #-o :grin:


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Jay, how true that statment is. Grandkids are much better than kids. The grandkids I can send home after I have fed them lots and lots of candy. That is so much fun.............


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## Katie Schifferli (Oct 17, 2007)

I thought this was a really interesting thread. And I have to say training puppies and children are very similar. As a teacher, I had to take a lot of child behavioral management courses and Operant Conditioning was always a chapter. It also features prominently in every Canine Behavioral book I've ever read. It's all about Reinforcement and Punishment. 

My guidance counselor even has a book about how dealing with behavioral problem kids is like dealing with an unruly puppy...


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Jay have you been stealing from my page/book of life? Well said, ask once. Well done my friend.


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

Noooooo.... :-\" :wink:


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## Angelique Cadogan (Jan 3, 2008)

I think the kids and dogs are so similar in many ways, they all wait till you turn your back :-\"
Rules and boundaries are needed in both ,the only thing I can say for myself is the FLIPPIN TIME I wish I had for my dogs, time to travel to watch competition and attend lots of seminars..


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

True story from this week: I've worked at a church in town for over 5 years doing childcare during choir practice and Sunday night service. I don't have kids yet, but these are infants to nearly 10 years old. We've got an autistic boy who's about 4 or so. He can't speak and doesn't seem to pay attention to much. When we have snack time (goldfish crackers and water in a sippy cup), the kids have to sit at the table so they won't grind goldfish crackers into the carpet and/or choke walking around with fish in their mouth. However, you can't really reason with the autistic child what you mean, so he gets up all the time and walks back and forth, then steals some of the other kid's fish (so they get upset too). So finally, I did what I do for foster dogs who are picky eaters:

When he got up from his seat, I said "all gone!" and took the fish and cup away from his spot and let him watch the other kids eat quietly in their seats. When he invariably got back up again when I had him sit, the fish went "all gone" and he kept trying to take the other kids' fish. I said "ah ah!" and intervened. I intervened and just let him walk around on his own to let the correct behavior reinforce itself. I was helping two other kids and I looked up. There he was, after weeks of this, (remember that he can't talk and doesn't even typically respond to his name) sitting quietly in his chair on his own looking up at me. I said "yes!" and praised him and kept rewarding him a few fish at a time. He sat there the whole rest of the snack time (keeping in mind that before, he wouldn't sit still longer than 10-15 seconds). If only I would have had a clicker. :wink: I told his mother, who was completely amazed and who struggles to keep him in a chair for meal times.

There is now a movement to use markers in teaching, called TAG teaching: http://www.tagteach.com/


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

That is a great story! And it makes total sense to me.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

And wow! That article talks about CLICKERS! :grin:


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

As it says on the FAQ page, the more you TAG, the less you nag!

I first heard about it at Karen Pryor's talk at the APDT's conference the year before last. She tends to use these things that make tones instead of dog clickers though...ya know, just in case someone doesn't like their kids being clicked at like dogs.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> As it says on the FAQ page, the more you TAG, the less you nag!
> 
> I first heard about it at Karen Pryor's talk at the APDT's conference the year before last. She tends to use these things that make tones instead of dog clickers though...ya know, just in case someone doesn't like their kids being clicked at like dogs.


That's hilarious.... "No, this is NOT a dog clicker. Listen: it's a totally different sound!"


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