# For sport work- What's the obsession with "real" dogs.



## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

I will start off with prefacing this with. I would much rather believe my dog is real in his work. That my dog is responding to a threat directly, with aggression with no other motivation that to protect himself, me...or simply for the fact he loves a good fight.

But on the other hand, The threat is always present. To conflict, it's real. But if the dogs reaction is one of I just really enjoy biting the sleeve the helper wears on his arm and he even simply disregards the threat as some BS. Has been taught it's all just a dog pony show by the helper but still works his ass off with power in an effort just to get one more chomp. People comment on this as if it were almost a liablity in the dog. An unwanted attribute. But we all know having a dog that is real, is not even required to do well. Just a dog that shows the picture. We just had a thread where it was stated the helper has to be good actor, So what if the dog is?The dog is still standing in front of helper, the dog is still biting, the dog is still taking a drive, the dog is still barreling down the field as fast as he can to hit the helper with everything he's got...that is still real. The dog is still doing what is asked of him. The origin of the behavior is just different. I mean for sport...what is our fascination for this? I am never going to in a real situation sic my dog anyone. 

On answer that comes to mind, is for breeding. So what is advantage of that? Because other people share the same fascination. This may seem like stupid I am asking. But It's something I have been asking myself. I am not a real cop. I do nothing with my dog that really requires him to really want to bite a human being. In short, I think this for me serves one purpose...To gratify my ego.


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## Lalit Dukkipati (May 24, 2011)

Hello Jim,

Different people have different motivations about working dogs . Of course , doing sport is very enjoyable as it will test your dog's drives, nerves during bitework ( stress resistance) , olfactory ability (tracking), obedience ( which will show handler skills and also the dog's willingness to take directions from his handler . To sum it up, it requires time , passion , patience,skill ,understanding of his dog, on the part of handler ,and the ability to perform from the dog's side and most importantly a ver good training decoy/helper. 

If one is doing to sport to to gratify his ego , to enjoy his time with his beloved dog, then that is a prerogative of the handler . Sport introduced a lot of methods in the training area,which police trainers and military trainers adopt .Also soprt saved working dogs . If not for sport ,maybe there would be very fewer working dogs.

However , for the dog to be a police dog ( in my humble opinion ) , sport doesnt test the dog completely as in newer ,strange stressful situations , different areas like bulidings , unknown terrain , working in the night , defense oriented situations ( threatening or fighting agressors ) working independently when sent . These are all people who have an actual need for such work and is also works excellently when need is augmented by passion . 

If I am not entirely wrong , these dogs are a few in the many, of the sport dog world . The dog needs too have extreme drives , to be explosive (spring into action with intensity) and solid nerves that can take stress and fight back in aggression . Some people get to admire these dogs when see their qualities . Some other people just want tp enoy their sport and like to compete and hone their handling skills in protection sport . Both kind of people are right in the pursuit of their need, interest or passion . To each his own , as they say . 

Regards,
Lalit




James Downey said:


> I will start off with prefacing this with. I would much rather believe my dog is real in his work. That my dog is responding to a threat directly, with aggression with no other motivation that to protect himself, me...or simply for the fact he loves a good fight.
> 
> But on the other hand, The threat is always present. To conflict, it's real. But if the dogs reaction is one of I just really enjoy biting the sleeve the helper wears on his arm and he even simply disregards the threat as some BS. Has been taught it's all just a dog pony show by the helper but still works his ass off with power in an effort just to get one more chomp. People comment on this as if it were almost a liablity in the dog. An unwanted attribute. But we all know having a dog that is real, is not even required to do well. Just a dog that shows the picture. We just had a thread where it was stated the helper has to be good actor, So what if the dog is?The dog is still standing in front of helper, the dog is still biting, the dog is still taking a drive, the dog is still barreling down the field as fast as he can to hit the helper with everything he's got...that is still real. The dog is still doing what is asked of him. The origin of the behavior is just different. I mean for sport...what is our fascination for this? I am never going to in a real situation sic my dog anyone.
> 
> On answer that comes to mind, is for breeding. So what is advantage of that? Because other people share the same fascination. This may seem like stupid I am asking. But It's something I have been asking myself. I am not a real cop. I do nothing with my dog that really requires him to really want to bite a human being. In short, I think this for me serves one purpose...To gratify my ego.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

I was not speaking for the masses on thier motivation for a real dog. I was simply speaking for me, the reason I would like a dog that really fights with aggression. Is almost purley ego based. I like the attention when someone compliments my dog, I can see that my boy is much more of a dog, that will bite to defend himself. than my first dog. I like this about him. It's not always about the toy for him.

And it is to each his own.I just wanna what other's "own" is. 

And I am well aware that sport is not a suitable venue to test the mark of a dog who can really perfom. For me, IPO is a "sport" to truest sense of the word. I like being competetive. And being a guy who has develed his entire life into physical tests of myself. Dog training has become the balance. Dog training is defintly a sport that challenges the trainer problem soliving skills. It's a thinking mans game. 

And talking sport, my experience is that a "real" dog is not needed to do well. Not in the least. But it is nice to watch when you see it. I guess there is old argument that these dogs are unworthy of breeding, or in some minds, competeting also. 

The struggle I have within is: yes the real dogs are few. But if the dog, can with minimal fault complete the task asked of him. Does it really matter why the dog is working? Some say using dogs that are prey motivated as breeding dogs, is "ruining" the breeds. But is it? I mean if a dog bites someone for real, and does the job asked of him. The internal motivation of the dog is irrelevant...at least for me. 

And that saying, people who need real dogs...I.E. Police. Are also few, in relation to how many dogs are out there. So there is market for social, prey driven dogs. 

but should a prey motivated dog be looked inferior to a real dog?


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

James Downey said:


> I like the attention when someone compliments my dog, I can see that my boy is much more of a dog, that will bite to defend himself. than my first dog. I like this about him. It's not always about the toy for him.


For me it's about a bit different of an experience. I don't care for or desire unwarranted attention and do not accept compliments very well. I am also intensely private and carefully guard/protect who has access to what is special or important to me. My dogs would be no exception to this. That said, I have always had an affinity for a nice dog. Nice = impressive and well balanced relative to the desired need or application.

My dogs do tend to represent what I care about, what's important to me, or what I put my energy into. For those who can relate, there is no greater joy than sharing my dogs with another fellow dog man or woman. 

Sport, for me, is just a mental and physical outlet - though it also allows for something productive for me to do with my dogs and has the ability to translate rather well into the world we live in. This should to some extent explain why sport does hold some value and interest for me. I isolate what is relevant and apply that to a/the real world setting, which is largely foreign to most people since application of that training is within an environment that is remote and off the grid.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

the "real dog" versus "sport dog" topic interests me too, and i think that a good sport dog may in many cases be just as much of a "real dog" too, if given the opportunity 

meaning IF it is trained and conditioned to work in REAL environments

if the dog is only worked in daylight in open training fields or play areas with very minimal distractions and environmental challenges you will never know, will you ? 
... that is the route for sport dogs as i see it ... at most a one on one with a slow moving decoy that has been rehearsed many many times before with the dog

PSDs/MWDs obviously get worked in low/no light levels, bad weather, tight quarters, in hi noise environments, in smoke, over widely different terrain, up/down stairs, in/out of cars, thru windows and over obstacles, etc., 
,,,,,,and are conditioned to find and engage decoys that look like real people who may be running or hiding rather than standing tall and presenting a sleeve for them (how many criminals are gonna charge head on to engage a PSD ???) 

-- sure it's a pita to set up, but imo if you work your sport dog the same way, you will stand a better chance to see if it is a "real dog", if that's what you are searching for
-- just my opinion, but i feel many dogs who really excel in sport would perform just as reliably in the "real world" work if conditioned properly
-- i often hear about the "unknown" factor of whether it will bite for real "on the street"......but imo with proper training this shouldn't be a crap shoot at all, and there is probably more stress/anxiety in the handler than there is in a good K9


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

James Downey;317270
but should a prey motivated dog be looked inferior to a real dog?[/QUOTE said:


> I don't think they should be looked at as inferior, but I think there should be a balance in drives and in the training. It's possible to do extremely well in any sport with a prey dominant dog if they have nerves of steel. Every dog has their threshold where they are going to run however. Some dogs you may never pressure them enough to get to that point others you can. Personally, I'd rather see a balance of drives or more "real" as you call it. I am far from "obsessed" with it though, just what I'd rather see.
> 
> I also compete in PSA so that's where I coming from. It be hard (not impossible) to compete with a prey only dog. The level 1 scenarios are designed to do put more and more stress on the dog.


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

Lalit Dukkipati said:


> Hello Jim,
> 
> Sport introduced a lot of methods in the training area,which police trainers and military trainers adopt .Also soprt saved working dogs . If not for sport ,maybe there would be very fewer working dogs.
> 
> Lalit


I think that's true in a lot of areas, not just working dogs. If you watch any of the Magpul Dynamics training videos. They borrow a little from military / LE and a little from sport shooters. I think the military(s) learns from sport and sport borrows from the military(s). I think the differences are slowly becoming less and less.


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## Shade Whitesel (Aug 18, 2010)

This is always an interesting topic for me. Do people assume police dogs are "real"? they bite for real, right?
Where do they come from? Leaving aside the argument that more and more are coming from KNPV, many are coming from sport lines. So if my police dog has a Sch 1 mother and a Sch 3 father (who I assume are sporty, because they both scored pretty well), does this make his parents now "real" because they produced my police dog, who has many street bites to his credit. 
What about my Sch3 dog, who is very prey drive, but has a police dog brother, is he real or sporty?

People say french ring is all about prey drive. Is the guard of object exercise a prey drive exercise?

What about the prey dog that is not bothered by anything because he just channels everything to his prey drive? Are you guys assuming he won't bite someone for real, or are you assuming in a real fight, if he gets hurt, he'll leave? What about wolves and their prey drive to take down big prey? You think they don't get kicked or hurt? 

What about my client's malinois who bit me (accidently) when I was showing the dog and client how to reward differently while teaching heel? Is he now "real" because he bit me?


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Shade sometimes I need some to say the thoughts in my head into actual words...And you just did that.

How about the people who think Handler aggression is an asset in a protection dog? If I am not mistaken the purpose of a protection dog is prevent you from getting hurt. When the dog hurts you themselves. That is exact opposite of a protection dog.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

In a real world, sport dogs would be the washouts from the real working dogs. Sad part is, few of the real dogs are bred by PD's, so, it has to be done in reverse when common sense tells you, that it is easier to lose what is in a real dog through breeding than it is to make a sporty dog real. Everything wants to vascilate to less than real.....or what we call "the average".


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

James Downey said:


> Shade sometimes I need some to say the thoughts in my head into actual words...And you just did that.
> 
> How about the people who think Handler aggression is an asset in a protection dog? If I am not mistaken the purpose of a protection dog is prevent you from getting hurt. When the dog hurts you themselves. That is exact opposite of a protection dog.


In my experience some of the strongest hardest charging dogs are the most stable and social.... when someone thinks that because a dog is handler aggressive he is more fit for a PP dog ... they might need to quit drinking the kool aid lol... but thats just me. I won't own a dog I have to fight in and out of the kennel and walk a tight rope with everytime I train or spend time with the dog. That typically is brought about by a highly reactive dog and I won't feed one like that. But thats just me...


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> In a real world, sport dogs would be the washouts from the real working dogs. Sad part is, few of the real dogs are bred by PD's, so, it has to be done in reverse when common sense tells you, that it is easier to lose what is in a real dog through breeding than it is to make a sporty dog real. Everything wants to vascilate to less than real.....or what we call "the average".


Have you had any hands on experience with PSDs and grip sport dogs? If so, what experience exactly?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Dogs are dogs Susan. I don't need hands on to know it is far easier to get less than more when breeding. You basing your experience on what? 2 dogs in 20+ years. I am impressed.


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> In a real world, sport dogs would be the washouts from the real working dogs. Sad part is, few of the real dogs are bred by PD's, so, it has to be done in reverse when common sense tells you, that it is easier to lose what is in a real dog through breeding than it is to make a sporty dog real. Everything wants to vascilate to less than real.....or what we call "the average".


 
Don,

Thanks for the input, but we're not talking about hunting pigs here. 

I think as long as the dog suits the purpose for which it is selected and we, as handlers/trainers/owners don't fool ourselves into believing that our dogs will be "real" when they've not been trained or tested to or shown they have that in them, who cares? 

There are plenty of PSDs/MWDs that aren't half as strong as many "sport dogs" I've seen. I'm not sure why everyone seems to view PSDs and MWDs this way. I wonder how many people have actually seen and worked with those dogs. Personally, my "sport" dog is better in all areas than every one of my MWDs, save one that just had lots of natural aggression and loved to bite. I think he would probably stick in there and fight longer than my sport dog, but I never tested it so I can't know for sure. 

As far as it being difficult to compete in PSA with a prey only dog, I have to disagree with that. The one benefit of sport is that the dogs see the same thing in training over and over again. You can take a very strong prey dog that doesn't really perceive much as a threat and excel in PSA just because the dog loves to bite. Although the dog is being intimidated with distractions and driven while on the bite, once the dog sees that once or twice, it's old news. Even a less confident prey dog can be shown the exercises and understand that there is no real threat. I think this is why many ignorant people knock all sport dogs. Because sport can be trained and a weak dog can be made to look better through repetition, those people assume all sport dogs must be weak or not "real." But, the benefit sport trainers have is that we can choose whatever dog we like and train however we want. We can train for our sport and then set up more realistic scenarios to prepare the dog to go above and beyond what they see on the field. 

I'm just so tired of hearing people who have never set foot on a trial field, let alone trained a dog to do a damn thing, talk about how sport dogs are ruining working dogs. There are a lot of people out there who fool themselves about their dog's abilities, but they exist in all venues.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Dogs are dogs Susan. I don't need hands on to know it is far easier to get less than more when breeding. You basing your experience on what? 2 dogs in 20+ years. I am impressed.


Wrong about me AGAIN Don. 

I'm not the one making blanket statements about the quality of PSDs and sport dogs - that would be you, Don. So I politely asked you what your level of direct hands on experience is with PSDs and sport dogs that would give you the knowledge necessary to come to the conclusions you draw. It's a VERY fair question, one that allows people to come to their own conclusions with regards to the value and weight of your opinion. I guess your belligerent response answers that question loud and clear - YOU GOT NOTHING.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

> This is always an interesting topic for me. Do people assume police dogs are "real"? they bite for real, right?
> Where do they come from? Leaving aside the argument that more and more are coming from KNPV, many are coming from sport lines.


knpv is a sport.



> So if my police dog has a Sch 1 mother and a Sch 3 father (who I assume are sporty, because they both scored pretty well), does this make his parents now "real" because they produced my police dog, who has many street bites to his credit.
> What about my Sch3 dog, who is very prey drive, but has a police dog brother, is he real or sporty?


yes, yes.



> People say french ring is all about prey drive. Is the guard of object exercise a prey drive exercise?


I have heard that it is an obedience exercise more than anything, and that people train the dog whichever way he looks at the exercise, but have been told it is easier to train a dog that is NOT actually guarding the object..


*What about the prey dog that is not bothered by anything because he just channels everything to his prey drive? Are you guys assuming he won't bite someone for real, or are you assuming in a real fight, if he gets hurt, he'll leave? What about wolves and their prey drive to take down big prey? You think they don't get kicked or hurt? 
*

who are YOU guys? 


> What about my client's malinois who bit me (accidently) when I was showing the dog and client how to reward differently while teaching heel? Is he now "real" because he bit me?


I am sure this is not a serious question... 



James Downey said:


> How about the people who think Handler aggression is an asset in a protection dog? If I am not mistaken the purpose of a protection dog is prevent you from getting hurt. When the dog hurts you themselves. That is exact opposite of a protection dog.


I have been involved with PP dogs for a looong time, and have been exposed to a fair amount of police and sport dogs...

I have never heard anyone say, and all my years on the net, I have also never heard anyone write that they think handler aggression is an asset to a PP dog, a sport dog, or a police dog. I think it is an unwanted by-product of trying to produce traits that are very strong in other aspects of the dogs temperament...

I think for some people it is just about having good dogs..dogs that they think are good...more complete, functional dogs.

For me it has never been about ego, to want what you might call a REAL dog. I just prefer dogs that I think are as the breed should be...usually in regards to protection work, because that has always been my main interest...

it really has nothing to do with prey vs. real, for me...

I can say that I have worked many dogs that I do not personally like. It was never because they worked in prey. I it usually because I know the dogs has substantial nerve issues, or is severely lacking in courage or heart, or does not have what I like in fighting behaviors, for my dogs...

I can also tell you guys honestly that I sit around and listen to most of the owners of these dogs talking about how great their next litter is going to be...or talking on the sidelines with thier friends and relatives, about their dogs, and describing them in ways that are really not accurate...ans many of these people also will tell any potential buyers how loyal and protective their dogs are, and how capable they are. More than a couple times I have seen pictures taken at training, that end up on websites, of dogs that could not fight their way out of a paper bag..or were scared of the helpers..etc. etc....but damn, they sure look great in those pics, any idiot would think they are the "real deal" as some might say...

I have been reading alot of GSD and SCH type boards lately and it seems that some people still view the sport as a breeding type test, they are dissappointed in the direction of the sport. 

One guy was talking about the courage test, and stated he thinks the dog should view the guy raising the stick as an actual potential threat, to overcome and dominate, and another guy thought that was preposterous, and that the helper raising the stick should be viewed as "encouragement" to come bite the sleeve....and the dog should never view anything that happens as a potential threat in the sport.

I dont compete in sports, so I cant say what sport people should want.. But I did like the comment the one guy made...

"It is called a COURAGE test, not an ENCOURAGEMENT test"

for me it is not really an ego thing at all, I just prefer to have dogs that I think are what a good example of the breed should be, and if a function of the breed is to be a protection dog, or do jobs that involve biting and fighting people, I like a dog that can do that, and has the desire to dominate and fight the helper, decoy, or badguy, not just bite the equipment involved in the training...


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Dogs are dogs Susan. I don't need hands on to know it is far easier to get less than more when breeding. You basing your experience on what? 2 dogs in 20+ years. I am impressed.


 
You see this what I am talking about!!!! 

The question was:

Have you had any hands on experience with PSDs and grip sport dogs? If so, what experience exactly?

Don holds himself to the might standard of what? "Dogs are dogs Susan. I don't need hands on to know it is far easier to get less than more when breeding" ( Translation- Don has not trained any)

but holds Susan to the standard of 2 not being all the much and pretty much worthless. 

WTF kind of Dog shit thinking is that? 

And So you do not need hands on. What are using to base your ideal on....Youtube? I go to a lot of trials never once say you at one. 

Don, do you notice that somethings you type or so ridiculous outlandish and off the mark, I feel bad for ya. Then when your called out on it. You keep playing the same poker face...when everyone at the table knows your full of shit.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> As far as it being difficult to compete in PSA with a prey only dog, I have to disagree with that. The one benefit of sport is that the dogs see the same thing in training over and over again. You can take a very strong prey dog that doesn't really perceive much as a threat and excel in PSA just because the dog loves to bite. Although the dog is being intimidated with distractions and driven while on the bite, once the dog sees that once or twice, it's old news. Even a less confident prey dog can be shown the exercises and understand that there is no real threat. I think this is why many ignorant people knock all sport dogs. Because sport can be trained and a weak dog can be made to look better through repetition, those people assume all sport dogs must be weak or not "real." But, the benefit sport trainers have is that we can choose whatever dog we like and train however we want. We can train for our sport and then set up more realistic scenarios to prepare the dog to go above and beyond what they see on the field.
> 
> I'm just so tired of hearing people who have never set foot on a trial field, let alone trained a dog to do a damn thing, talk about how sport dogs are ruining working dogs. There are a lot of people out there who fool themselves about their dog's abilities, but they exist in all venues.


Well said, Ariel. Brett mentioned that dogs successful at PSA can't be only highly prey driven, but I've likewise heard from pretty successful people in PSA (yourself included) that this is not so. If a dog is prey driven enough and has a good training so they know what to expect, they should go through the hard pressure on a PSA 1.


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## Jason Davis (Oct 12, 2009)

Brian Anderson said:


> In my experience some of the strongest hardest charging dogs are the most stable and social.... when someone thinks that because a dog is handler aggressive he is more fit for a PP dog ... they might need to quit drinking the kool aid lol... but thats just me. I won't own a dog I have to fight in and out of the kennel and walk a tight rope with everytime I train or spend time with the dog. That typically is brought about by a highly reactive dog and I won't feed one like that. But thats just me...



Amen


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

"I have never heard anyone say, and all my years on the net, I have also never heard anyone write that they think handler aggression is an asset to a PP dog, a sport dog, or a police dog. I think it is an unwanted by-product of trying to produce traits that are very strong in other aspects of the dogs temperament..."

All my years only add up to about 7 and I have heard people brag that thier dog is handler aggressive. And that they like it. And they will also add the nifty little catch phrase...Now we have an understanding. For the most part 99% of these people were full of shit about who the dog was. but they did glorify handler aggression.

I also know for a fact a breeder of Malinois that prides themselves on using only the nastiest SOBs on the planet for breeding. The select dogs that are hanlder aggressive. 

I am with you, it's not an asset. Not saying your experience is not valid. but I have heard it, and seen it. I also have seen people buy these dogs with the idea that if they can redirect that aggression they will have next world champ. Only to have to re-home or put the dog down and have a shit ton of heartche. Then I will hear for the next decade about this super dog that they owned and he was hard he would bite who ever, when ever.


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## Lisa Brazeau (May 6, 2010)

susan tuck said:


> Have you had any hands on experience with PSDs and grip sport dogs? If so, what experience exactly?


His REAL dogs are on youtube. LMFAO!

I get why people want REAL dogs, but I'm not one of them.

To me, a REAL dog is a dog who likes to fight with the man, not the suit or the sleeve. Which means equipment need not be present for the dog to bite. True forward aggression.

A real dog is more likely to pick a fight with a person not wearing a suit/sleeve, imo. And that's a bigger liability than I'm willing to tackle.

Although, if you train your dog to bite, you are teaching him how to use his weapons and hone that skill just like martial arts. So you're still in a vulnerable position in terms of risk and liability, even if your dog isn't the REAL type.

In my nephew's karate class, his first memorization test was the saying, "I will only fight to defend my life and the lives of others." Why? Because the next part is learning and practicing to use his weapons, and we don't want him going out and picking fights.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

James Downey;317330 I have heard people brag that thier dog is handler aggressive. And that they like it. And they will also add the nifty little catch phrase...Now we have an understanding. For the most part 99% of these people were full of shit about who the dog was. but they did glorify handler aggression.[/QUOTE said:


> Gotta agree with James, I've heard people brag about their dogs handler aggression on many occasions.
> 
> I agree with Brian though also, it's not a trait I want, or will tolerate.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I think I have used the now we have an understanding line or something similar.

I have mentioned it on here as well, 

I would not characterize my current dog as a handler aggressive dog, but she has tried to attack me.
I have mentioned it on here as well, I would not call it bragging though, I call it being truthful...

she was basically raised outside in a kennel on a rural property with little training and not much socialization, on top of that I did do a little bitework with her myself. 

when brought out into the public, she was trying to attack everything, I gave her a pretty harsh correction, and the dog came straight for me...

due to how she was raised and the type of dog she is, and some things I should have done, and some things I should not have done, it led to her trying to attack me...

Now, WE HAVE AN UNDERSTANDING..

there are still situations that I can create that could get me bitten if I am not careful, but she is really a fair dog, and not what I would call really handler aggressive. She will not take corrections from anyone but me, in my household, but does listen to them for the most part...they can mange the dog, but not force her to do things, or correct her... I believe that is because she just has not bonded with, or does not respect the other people, the way she has/does with me. I have had other people watch the dog, that know how to handle these types of dogs, and there have been no issues...I dont think they pushed anything though.

This is NOT the type of dog that I would say should go to an inexperienced person/family though, as she was bred to fight people, as I was told by her breeder, and I believe that to be true...I was also told that could extend to the person holding the leash, which I also know is true..she is pushy sometimes with me, but I let some things slide, that many others would not...for good or for bad...

we work out of a mutual respect and fairness, me and the dog, I have no doubt she would bite me, if I did certain things with her...and I would bet if I gave her to the neighbors, they would get bitten within a few days probably...

that being said, not handler aggressive, but not fearful of the handler, and will bite the handler under certain circumstances...

we have an understanding...


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Gotta agree with James, I've heard people brag about their dogs handler aggression on many occasions.
> 
> I agree with Brian though also, it's not a trait I want, or will tolerate.


I've heard it too, those that brag about really handler aggressive dogs. Very odd thing to brag about since it has a lot to do wiith a dog not being wired right, except in the case of dogs who are pushed way into a corner by being given unfair and overly harsh corrections.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

susan tuck said:


> I've heard it too, those that brag about handler aggressive dogs. Very odd thing to brag about since it has a lot to do wiith a dog not being wired right, except in the case of dogs who are given unfair and overly harsh corrections, of course.
> 
> Joby in the situation you describe, I would think that's more about a dominant dog, not a handler aggressive dog?


she does display some dominance, but not what I would call a real rank dominant dog, but in the instance of what goes on here, dominance is surely part of it...a pretty quick trigger to accept a challenge and fight is another part I am sure...coupled with me walking a fine line, by still doing bitework with her myself on occasion....she knows she can fight me on occasion...but is pretty clear about about occasions those are..

I think it depends on how you handle the dog...I suppose...not handler aggressive to me, but maybe to someone else...surely if they did not know what they were doing and were unfair to the dog...

the time she did come for me she was about 9-10 months, and did come for real...
I would not say that giving a harsh correction on a prong from 10 feet away was pushing her into a corner, but it did cross the line with her, at that time..but then again it is not like we have a super deep relationship either...

it was not really fair at all, I can say that, dog never was corrected before that...was not accustomed to it..and took it as an invitation to fight...

I mostly use ecollar now, but do use prong sometimes, and have had some minor protests here and there, but nothing major...all in all not real dominant and not real handler aggressive, but just something to be mindful with how you interact with, if that makes sense...


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Well said, Ariel. Brett mentioned that dogs successful at PSA can't be only highly prey driven, but I've likewise heard from pretty successful people in PSA (yourself included) that this is not so. If a dog is prey driven enough and has a good training so they know what to expect, they should go through the hard pressure on a PSA 1.


and Ariel you would know. Waaaaaaaay more than I would, you have more time on a field than I do, I am no expert and don't claim to be. My ideal would be to have a good balance.

and I hadn't thought of it that way either.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I think that the people that brag about handler aggression or think it's cool are probably under the mistake belief that "If my dog bites me he'll bite anyone". 
Handler aggression IMHO is 95% handler created, 4% ****ed up in the head and 1% real. 
Will either my SchIII or my non titled dog bite for real? I "believe" so under the right circumstances but I also believe that most any dog will bite "under the right circumstances". Will they stay in a fight when it hits the fan? Doubtful because #1neither dog has had any sort of PP training. #2 I think a dog that will stay in the fight is truely rare.
Either way it's just not important to me. They are my pets, my hobby, my buddies, not my protectors! One is ultra evil "looking" in his duties as my home, yard, car alarm dog. Who knows, who cares if he'll back it up. 
Handler aggression! :-o I'll show them what aggression is about if they ever try. :twisted:


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## Shade Whitesel (Aug 18, 2010)

Lisa, I am not picking on you but I want to quote something you said because I have heard this again and again.

"To me, a REAL dog is a dog who likes to fight with the man, not the suit or the sleeve. Which means equipment need not be present for the dog to bite. True forward aggression."

Okay, I think we could all agree on this. But, let me again, give some alternate examples.

Give me 2 dogs: Let's say they are exactly the same with the same (balanced) drives of prey, defense, aggression, however people like to explain their dog is. They start out as puppies. One is going to be my shop dog, so I work really hard on teaching him not to bite hands, clothes, teach him excellent bite inhibition, etc... Socialize him with everything and everyone. I also do Schutzhund with him. He turns out to be pretty good and I get fifth at a National Trial with him with a protection score of 97. 
The other one (keep in mind this is the same dog!). I tease (in a fun way) , encourage to bite, react when he bites my hands and clothes either positively or as he gets older and it starts to hurt more, negatively. I don't socialize him as much and I keep him out in the kennel most of the time. I do french ring with him, and then later I practice with hidden sleeves and do some muzzle work. 

Keeping in mind that this is the same dog, just raised with different experiences, which one is going to be more likely to bite for real when faced with the possibility? Hopefully the Sch dog would as well, but he's never had the experience and instead he's had the inhibition of being trained not to bite people when he's young. 

Depending on my helper work for the Schutzhund dog, he might present himself as really "sporty" and his clone might present himself as really "real". 

Just some thoughts..... A real dog vs sporty, or one with real aggression, might also have some training to back up how it appears....


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## Kirk Russell (Aug 2, 2010)

Picking up on what Bob said, from my limited experience most of the people i have met when they claim they have a real dog it is on that will bite on and off the sport filed. However most of the people who make this claim to me when i watch their dog being worked on the field it comes across as not being an accurate statement. Don't get me wrong I have a met a few sport dogs that since they were all about the fight and not the sleeve you could tell they were willing to take the fight off the field.


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## Lisa Brazeau (May 6, 2010)

Shade Whitesel said:


> Lisa, I am not picking on you but I want to quote something you said because I have heard this again and again.
> 
> "To me, a REAL dog is a dog who likes to fight with the man, not the suit or the sleeve. Which means equipment need not be present for the dog to bite. True forward aggression."
> 
> ...


 
Well.... Yaaa! O

Of course there's a major element of experiental learning.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Here's another statement about handler aggressive dogs that perplexes me. 

The dog in question will light the owner for the smallest infraction. Dog is young so he still can be somewhat overpowered by strength. So the owner when the dog goes crazy basically balls the dog up, so he cannot bite him anymore waits till he cools off and releases and then goes about his buisness as if the dog never did it. I asked WTF, at the very least training should stop and the dog should not get to work anymore. You cannot turn your head the other way on this. His answer, " He's young and I do not want to ruin our relationship" . I say, "RELATIONSHIP?" He's effing biting you!!!! Your relationship is terrible.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Shade Whitesel said:


> Just some thoughts..... A real dog vs sporty, or one with real aggression, might also have some training to back up how it appears....


I would say this...take both your clones..do the same thing with them, but do no protection work...do a stake out test with them at maturity, get to the core of the dog...see how they react and perform. two clones would react the same...but if you took 5 different dogs and did it, would they all react the same, if they reacted differently, would it be because it was trained?

I can say I dont think my dog is a sporty type dog, whatever that may be to most people...and I would not say it is appearance or training, it is how the dog was bred.

at about 8 months old, on the tie-out..her grip was fairly weak and not intense at all when I went to a sleeve, without much prior training at all...

I put her in a kennel, had a guy give her the hairy eyeball, get her attention, yell and raise an object to the dog, from a distance and come towards the kennel...

the dog exploded with aggression, and almost made it over the fence to confront him. at 8 months of age, with almost no prior protection type work, certainly no defensive type work, or fencework...just a little tug work...

a little later we put her on the tie out again, dog grabbed sleeve full mouth, crunched it and showed intensity and aggression, guy raised stick to threaten dog, dog released sleeve and grabbed guys stick arm with serious intent...he approached like normal with a sleeve, from a distance working his way in, giving eye contact...dog went nuts at the end of the line...came in gave bite...went to raise stick...got bitten...

ever since that day, I was aware of the type of dog I have, not a sporty one if that makes any sense..

This was not produced by training, or by doing defense work, or aggression work over time or any of that stuff, or hurting the dog or any of that stuff... and it is not an appearance. it is the core of the dog in my opinion...

it all took place in the matter of a few minutes...guy got her attention, while she was behind a fence with plenty of options and threatened/challenged her in a fashion that made her think he was serious about his intentions, and the true nature of the dog came out...plain as day...it is my belief that if she had made it over the fence she would have attacked the guy....

she was a dangerous type dog to work for quite some time after that... but by doing repetitive and more proper type work, she is now trusting and fairly clear headed, but still pretty "serious", and a dog to be careful with in my opinion, but certainly safe enough for experienced people to work....my decoy is the guy that babysits her for me, when I need someone to....she likes and trusts him, but I would say she would bite him for real as well, if he chose to try to fight her without equipment on..which he never does, we use other people for muzzle, and hidden work with her.

we have worked together a lot in conjunction with SCH sport people, and K9 in our area at times...

I can say that I have heard many GSD SCH people talk about my dog, all at the SCH type training sessions, after the SCH training, we break out the suits, and the muzzles, and the hidden sleeves...which is a big turnoff to some people,almost all of the people at this one training group, who are all SCH competitors and GSD owners/breeders told me pretty much bluntly that they would not want to own a dog like mine, after seeing her work, and some were scared of her after seeing it. Most of those people have dogs with very poor fighting behaviors in my mind, and are breeding dogs that I have worked, and I KNOW are not even close to the level of courage or fight that my dog has..which I am not bragging about or saying is super duper....and the helper loves the dog...

my decoy/helper has told me I have one of the best dogs he has seen in a while...and that she is the real deal (whatever that means to him)...the police guys all love her....the sch GSD people not so much for the most part, at least the small number I have seen enough, to talk to them about it.....they see the aggression, and the intent, and it is not for them....

so I agree with things said somewhat, but it is not always training, and it is not always an appearance..sometimes it is the way the dog is wired...


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

I don't understand the whole premise of this thread.

Sometimes one ends up with just what one wanted.
Sometimes one ends up with something totally different then what was wanted.
Sometimes one ends up with more then one wanted.

Ya deal with whats in front of you.
To cite a perhaps over used quote;
'The dream is over'.

Randy


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

My personal preference of a dog at this moment, is one that when I say attack will run down the field and bite the best decoys around. I want one that is tough enough to bite Fernando Dosta, Herve Mavanga, Andre Skra and the likes. I also want that dog to OUT when I say. That is a very hard thing to have. I believe it is easier to acomplish that with a prey driven dog. It still takes a good Dog to take a serious a$$ kicking on the ring field and stay there and fight the guy, then go back and do it again. I have seen dogs that would light you up any where at any time. Those dogs are usually slow to out. 
At the present moment I don't need a PP dog. I dont want to worry about them biting the guy walking down the street. Its a liability. My dogs are crated and kenneled or in a fenced yard. They charge the fence and bark when people come by that is sufficeint. Nobody but my friends come in the yard when the dogs are out. If a bad guy really wants in to get me, he will shoot my dogs and I will hear him and by the time that happens Buddy will wish he never came by my place. I shoot pretty good and my wife shoots better.
I do French ring. That is it. It is about points nothing else. So I like dogs that have enough jam to go and bite but are thinking about the out the whole time there on the decoy.
Maybe I am wrong. Im not sure. Peanut bites like a shark it hurts bad, she comes back when whistled and I have very high hopes for this dog. They must be Balanced. The training must be Balanced. Or you will have problems.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

A real dog vs sporty, or one with real aggression, might also have some training to back up how it appears....-Shade.

The more and more I think about the dogs I have seen. There have been dogs no matter what you would have done. They are going to be prey crazy dogs, that are hard wired that way. Same with dogs that are very aware of thier mortality and have low threshold to fight and high to flee. 

Then there are dogs that are more pliable. You can either route with them. 

In fact your Malinois' father. Iggy. had an attribute I have only seen in him. I have never seen any other dog go from being so real, forward and powerful to Obedience drive with just mention of an obedience command. And then right back into fight. Which I think is awesome. The problem with strong dogs, is it can be hard to get those points for secondary OB. So, Iggy had balance like I have never seen before. And I suspect this was not trained into him. I met iggy when he was 18 months old and was already showing this. I could be wrong...but back to the story.

I think that the lines of where genetic limitation to adapt stops and nurture begins varies greatly in dog to dog. My Addie and her father that were so obsessed with biting, they could not or would not even notice a real threat. Even real pain. They would just keep working. Addies father was so prey driven. He did not need a reward to work....he could come out, session after session and never get rewarded and would never lose hope for a bite. 

For my litter, 2 of the girls were very edgy. They were/ are real. I kept them for a long time, out of fear that boners would see the aggression in them and try to evoke it at a young age...and freak them out. But those dogs, I do not think your ever in thier life going to convince them that the fight between the man and themselves is a safe, play, sporty evolution. 

So, The myrad of how much we can foster certain attributes in a dog is from one extreme to the other...and everything in between.

And just one other thought. I think that you cannot create drive, confidence, nerve. You can only either create a situation for the dog to grow up and allow these things to flourish in or you can stifle it. I find it funny when people take credit for the dogs personality being more than it was. I mean either way the training must have been good. But I believe the trainers assessment on what happened is wrong. If a dog is a bit concerned about his saftey, your not going to creat courage. you are never going to change that. Only time can. If he's got balls...you can only allow his maturity to grow till he has an adult mind which can handle higher levels of stress. After all the puppies I have seen albiet not as many as some others... I have yet to meet super puppy, one with the balls and a maturity that harbors the stress handling hormones of a grown dog.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Daniel Lybbert said:


> My personal preference of a dog at this moment, is one that when I say attack will run down the field and bite the best decoys around. I want one that is tough enough to bite Fernando Dosta, Herve Mavanga, Andre Skra and the likes. I also want that dog to OUT when I say. That is a very hard thing to have. I believe it is easier to acomplish that with a prey driven dog. It still takes a good Dog to take a serious a$$ kicking on the ring field and stay there and fight the guy, then go back and do it again. I have seen dogs that would light you up any where at any time. Those dogs are usually slow to out.


Really?

My experience has been just the opposite. A dog that loves to fight, when the action stops are happy to out in hopes it will start another fight. 

A high prey drive dog, the higher the drive...the less they think. And they are not interested in the fight they are perfectly happy just clamping down on the bite. 

Another dog that has a hard time outing is a dog that's nerve is the kind where after it's attacked it's survival instincts become heightened and they won't out. It's the opposite of a dog who's afraid to bite. These dogs are afraid to out. They have some control when they are biting. 

I also believe to the core that most, if not all out problems are some imbalance in the handler/dog relationship. The dog does not trust the handler with this. I believe this after watching dogs that were more dog than my last dog have beautiful outs. My dog as the trial would go one, the harder it would be for her to out. and she did start with out probelms. My new dog is twice the dog she was and he came with the idea I am not going to let go in his head already. And I assessed the problem. Which I believe was fear of losing his resource. I created a training plan to help ease his possessiveness and our outs are getting better. where with my last dog, the outs got worse as her life went on.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> I think that the people that brag about handler aggression or think it's cool are probably under the mistake belief that "If my dog bites me he'll bite anyone".
> Handler aggression IMHO is 95% handler created, 4% ****ed up in the head and 1% real.
> Will either my SchIII or my non titled dog bite for real? I "believe" so under the right circumstances but I also believe that most any dog will bite "under the right circumstances". Will they stay in a fight when it hits the fan? Doubtful because #1neither dog has had any sort of PP training. #2 I think a dog that will stay in the fight is truely rare.
> Either way it's just not important to me. They are my pets, my hobby, my buddies, not my protectors! One is ultra evil "looking" in his duties as my home, yard, car alarm dog. Who knows, who cares if he'll back it up.
> Handler aggression! :-o I'll show them what aggression is about if they ever try. :twisted:


He'll back it up if its something/someone he cares about and he's truly triggered in that instinct.


T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Brett Bowen said:


> and Ariel you would know. Waaaaaaaay more than I would, you have more time on a field than I do, I am no expert and don't claim to be. My ideal would be to have a good balance.
> 
> and I hadn't thought of it that way either.


Its like a little bit pregnant.  You have you list of do nots or else you will get bit. If that's little bit. What's alot.

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Randy Allen said:


> I don't understand the whole premise of this thread.
> 
> Sometimes one ends up with just what one wanted.
> Sometimes one ends up with something totally different then what was wanted.
> ...


You shouldn't have to "end up." You ought to be able to select for what you want--either way. Now I think some are seeing the error in selecting just for prey--bite--hold on forever. 

T


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> You shouldn't have to "end up." You ought to be able to select for what you want--either way. Now I think some are seeing the error in selecting just for prey--bite--hold on forever.
> 
> T


T

Playing Devils Advocate here for the sake of the thread.

What is the error in selecting dogs for prey drive alone? I believe you are correct. and I know my answer. Which is: Prey drive alone does not equal good nerve. I have seen plenty of good drive dogs, who are hesitant. We need to breed in fight response...which there are dogs out there that have it.


But I think good nerve in general is maybe more important and often overlooked. One of the reasons I choose Vion as a stud Was I have a female top heavy on the prey drive. she has just smidge of fight in her. but not enough to balance the dog. So, I choose Vion for his aggression in hopes to balance things out. So far the males out of the litter seem to have achieved what I was hoping for. All the girls went to one extreme or the other. So, my belief in Malinois is we not need to so much as look for drive, but we need to look for nerve. I know Sean Riveria Iron (bruce) has some incredible nerve in terms of traveling well, going to new places that sort of thing. This seems like a minor thing to be putting up at the top for importance. But I think these dogs are rarer than the dogs that fight well. but I think there are a lot of Malinois that look good on the field, as long as they ride in the same car, to the same field, with blinds set up the same way, working on the same helper. I believe dogs like Iron are what we need a little more of, couple that with some serious power...and hopefully you'd get powerful, non-weirdo pups.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

James Downey said:


> Really?
> 
> My experience has been just the opposite. A dog that loves to fight, when the action stops are happy to out in hopes it will start another fight.
> 
> ...


I think it is not that cut and dry...some dogs love to fight and are not easy to out..same thing with dirty dogs in a blind...some strong dogs are dirty, they just dont want to wait, or hold the helper...

another thing to consider is actual aggression, the more aggression, the less thinking occurs....

some dogs take it more personal, and they already have what they want in their mouth...

I have noticed that my dog outs much more reliably on a sleeve than a suit. I believe this is becuase she views the sleeve as an object, and she is "fighting" *for* control of the object, and when she bites a guy in a suit, she is fighting, and feeling the guy in there...and fighting him..

the sleeve CAN be more of a prey object, and the suit CAN illicit more fighting and defensive techniques..a dog bites a guy in a suit and gets a hold of him, he knows it...

could be way wrong, but that is what I think..

I have heard that dogs that take things more personally are much harder to train for FR, and it is much easier for the decoys to trip them up...

get them to jump the OG early, and drag them out of the circle easier...and by hovering, giving more eye contact, toss a little stink eye, a little growl or sound in there, and some dogs dont out nearly easily as others.....it is easier to get in their heads when they are more aware of the man in the suit...at least that is what I have heard from a few FR people....


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> I think it is not that cut and dry...some dogs love to fight and are not easy to out..same thing with dirty dogs in a blind...some strong dogs are dirty, they just dont want to wait, or hold the helper...
> 
> another thing to consider is actual aggression, the more aggression, the less thinking occurs....
> 
> ...


Realistically, whether the dog was actually trained or not, then tested or acted that way out of pure raw talent, alot of that is how the dog was brought up regardless of how anyone looks at it. Genetics are genetics, but how that dog was raised training or not, what was it allowed to do, not allowed, exposed, scolded, not, toys no toys. Everyone says I just let him be a dog, well a dog in my household is a whole different dog in anothers. Was he taken out with other dogs, people, one on one attention, etc. This list and argument can go on and on, and lots of people have valid points, but its the total picture when you look at it. Some do come out more serious if thats what you want to call it, or was it someone lack of training? Style? Alot of variables play a factor. Not directed at anyone dog in particular here.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> In a real world, sport dogs would be the washouts from the real working dogs. Sad part is, few of the real dogs are bred by PD's, so, it has to be done in reverse when common sense tells you, that it is easier to lose what is in a real dog through breeding than it is to make a sporty dog real. Everything wants to vascilate to less than real.....or what we call "the average".


First of, what sport are you talking about Don? And to be REAL, unless you owned, raised, and TRAINED an actual BITING sport dog or police dog of the herder type which dominates the world of bite sports, then you have ZERO Credibility when you speak. Everyone here knows it, some choose to ignore and laugh at home, others more vocal. Your definitions are so far fetched from reality, or let me say 90-95% of the working dog world, and you still think they are all wrong. LOL Your thoughts on high drive and out of contro.....then you speak on that... high drive is just that high drive, control is control, nothing more nothing less. Why don't you go get yourself a malinois and play with it for a while, you may start understanding a few things on why and what people say when it comes down to bitesport and bite dogs in general.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Brett Bowen said:


> and Ariel you would know. Waaaaaaaay more than I would, you have more time on a field than I do, I am no expert and don't claim to be. My ideal would be to have a good balance.
> 
> and I hadn't thought of it that way either.


Ariel's dog is pretty balanced. Not extremely prey driven, but has enough prey drive to do any sport for sure, not overly aggressive, but she can get angry in the work. Her dog sleeps in my house with me every night and yet when Ariel and I were rough housing a while back, the dog was very happy to give me two "real" bites. One on the arm and when I peeled her off my arm she got me in the leg. She recovered quickly and held no grudge, but her intentions were to bite me for sure. And this is a dog who normally adores me. She is a very social and stable dog, she would be an ideal PP dog for most people.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> I think it is not that cut and dry...some dogs love to fight and are not easy to out..same thing with dirty dogs in a blind...some strong dogs are dirty, they just dont want to wait, or hold the helper...
> 
> another thing to consider is actual aggression, the more aggression, the less thinking occurs....
> 
> ...


 
I guess I see your point. Maybe I will change my thinking to: The more dog you have, the more your work is cut out for you. No matter where the dog is coming from in his brain. 

But I do think teaching the out is that cut and dry or any behavior for that matter.The laws of learning do not subside because a dog has a strong desire. They actually are more true. you said it yourself. your dog likes to fight. If you could somehow control access to the fight on the suit. You could get the dog to deal cards to get a fight. j/k....But I do not think it has so much to do with that a fight for your dog is just too much, and he cannotcontrol himself being the problem. I think that the fight for your dog is just too much, he cannot control himself, because you cannot control access to the fight very well. That's sounds like a bad dig. But it's not. It's actually the key. You said it yourself

"I have noticed that my dog outs much more reliably on a sleeve than a suit. I believe this is becuase she views the sleeve as an object, and she is "fighting" *for* control of the object, and when she bites a guy in a suit, she is fighting, and feeling the guy in there...and fighting him.."

So you have to control when the dog can fight him, allow access only through criteria you set down. 

I have a different reason why maybe your dog has a hard time letting go of a suit. Simply the sleeve is easier for a helper to control. A suit is loose and when the decoy freezes the suit does not, there is still play in it. And the dog can get a little gratification out of it. This would be especially true if you used a tug to teach out by making the toy dead, holding it there till the dog outs. then rewarding. My dog has the same problem with a ball, but not a ball on a string. Because I can stop a ball on a string from moving. It's a subtle form of help for the dog. and it never was faded properly. A good test of how well the out is. is simply give a dog a toy, and let them have it. Ask for out, when the dog drops it. Reach for it. if the dog tries to race you to it. There's your first problem. The dog does not know out. the dog knows drop it and get it before anyone else does. Out's are rooted in insecurities in the dog about what is going to happen after they let go. 

I know I may sound like a dick here. But I have listened to trainer after trainer blame the dog for not learning. I refuse to believe that we are powerless against the dog. My first dog I constantly contested she would be better if I were better. How true that is. For my new I am a better trainer than he is a dog. I do not make excuses that the dog is just too much. No such thing. The more a dog wants a resource and the better I am at allowing access to it. The better the training will be.

And it really is that cut and dry. The quality of an out is not a predetermined code of genetics. I never had anyone come shopping for a dog asking how are the outs? It's an operantly conditioned behavior. It's a handler issue. Yes we must take into account what the dog is thinking and feeling to got to the lab and make a plan to get good outs. But those are just the parameters we work in to get to the final outcome. My first dog, her first outs ever were solid, beautful....by the time she was three I had mad out problems she learned that. My next dog, 2 times the dog she was...and she was no slouch. He would not let anything go for the life of him. His out got better not worse.His big problem was he just wanted to keep it. Some people like to think that possession is a form of confidence. It's an insecurity. It's a form of resource guarding. So, I set up parameters based on that assessment to ease his worries. I would give him a toy, my hand meant you get a toy. I taught out by placing a small piece of rag in my hand and I would say out, if he went for it. I would close my hand...when he backed off. my hand opened. I would say out. Till he stopped trying to grab it. And just stared at it, thinking how do I get it. Then I would take my other hand and hand it to him...watch the fingers!!!! He then learned out means stop do not touch, and my hand meant something is coming, not leaving...and then I uped the anty till we were on a sleeve.

The major reason I dismiss the idea of just "too much dog" is because if that is true, you might as well hang up the leash. Because that's just who he is. He is hard wired like that, no reprogramming possible. You are absolutley powerless to do anything about the behavior. 

All that applies to dirty dogs also. If your dog has a solid out, And you send your dog into a blind and say out before he gets there and he bites....you aint got shit but a half assed drop it.

Joby there is a quick to see if your dog is enjoying the fight with the man or just likes biting a suit. Set the suit on the ground, next to the helper and say get em'. HAHA Dollar to a donut she bites the suit, or goes for the guy but shows some confusion on where she should bite.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

James Downey said:


> T
> 
> Playing Devils Advocate here for the sake of the thread.
> 
> ...


A lot of it is what you have eluded to above and in previous posts and what I believe makes a complete dog. If you over do it in one trait---how does that effect others such as territoriality, instinctive guard, etc. I think you are right that you can go so high in prey that the nervous system comes into play. I don't know that it has to be inter-related but it often is. We see the same in BCs [and some other breeds/dogs] that are OCD in prey but have nerve issues in other areas and certainly don't have any fight. Also, there are breed differences and standards. Should GSD really be ball driven Golden Retrievers. As for the "real," I don't think sport has anything to do with that and that the look shouldn't matter. Is the dog engaged, enjoying and performing the work should be the only consideration. A friend said to me last night that if you have prey, you have fight. I told her that's not necessarily so. I think if you stay with the balanced dog with good prey and focus on the total dog, you should be able to get the sport dog and not necessarily sacrifice other valuable traits. 

T


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## eugene ramirez (Jun 22, 2010)

susan tuck said:


> I've heard it too, those that brag about really handler aggressive dogs. Very odd thing to brag about since it has a lot to do wiith a dog not being wired right, except in the case of dogs who are pushed way into a corner by being given unfair and overly harsh corrections.


I never really understood why some would brag about their handler aggressive dogs. Maybe they think it validates their dogs as "serious" or "real" PP. Strangely, they may be right in their assessments. I mean, if these dogs are willing to bite, "the hand that feeds them" so to speak, I guess these dogs would not have any inhibitions to biting anyone else. 

Also, possibly included with this handler aggression, a combination of dominance, rank, fight drive, can be added into mix. The very traits, some breeders are looking for to be part of their breeding program.

Personally, I prefer a dog that is cross trained. One that is able to compete on the field, but tough as nails on bad guys. But easy on handler, and social to other animals, and great with my kids,


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

And a dog that's hard to train because it takes things personally? I know you did not say that. but really...that sounds someones reaching a little bit. That's a load of bullshit. I think that's very light talk for I do not how to control the dog very well. 

And I am not trying to be arrogant here. Nor do I talk like this thinking one day I smile down upon you all from a podium. Though a win would be nice. These are just the thoughts that run through my head. And you all know I am very empathetic to the dog when it comes to creating a course of training for my dog. But I do not use my empathy as an excuse for the dog to not be trained properly. I used to make all kinds of excuses for my dog, then wonder why I am going home with 26 in tracking. Someone had to tell me...you make too many excuses for your dog.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

eugene ramirez said:


> I rsonally, I prefer a dog that is cross trained. One that is able to compete on the field, but tough as nails on bad guys. But easy on handler, and social to other animals, and great with my kids,


 
Absolutley. This what we should be striving for in the Malinois. The dog does not have to be lassie, or rin tin tin. All my pups out Vion were social when they left my house. I have 2 ( Alice goes to her new home on the 20th...Yippy!!!) still and had one till she was 6 months old. All of them were social, well adjusted in the presence of other animals, good with my children. And they all showed promise to work. And these days, Vions son Mickey is everything I wanted in a working dog. I know I am partial, but he maybe the most sound 11 month old Malinois I have ever seen. And I saw every bit of a handler aggressive dog in him. I could tell when he was younger that he was thinking about biting me. And once he did when he was very young over a chicken quarter...puppy fight for it. Tried to break it up with my hands. And I kicked his ass from here to sesame st. I also, after it was over gave him his chicken quarter back. I could see the look in his face when I gave it back....Like the light bulb went on. This guy is my homey. And he has respected me ever since. I do not think the ass kicking did it. It was returning the chicken quarter. I began to believe that You could have a reciprocal, mutually respectful relationship with him. I now believe that most handler aggressive dogs are created. Through shitty boundrie setting. handler not respecting some of the dogs boundries....and generally trying to create a slave master relationship with the dog. And Malinois a lot of the time do not play the slave role well...or the handler is so weak, the dog starts to molest them to be incharge.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> A lot of it is what you have eluded to above and in previous posts and what I believe makes a complete dog. If you over do it in one trait---how does that effect others such as territoriality, instinctive guard, etc. I think you are right that you can go so high in prey that the nervous system comes into play. I don't know that it has to be inter-related but it often is. We see the same in BCs [and some other breeds/dogs] that are OCD in prey but have nerve issues in other areas and certainly don't have any fight. Also, there are breed differences and standards. Should GSD really be ball driven Golden Retrievers. As for the "real," I don't think sport has anything to do with that and that the look shouldn't matter. Is the dog engaged, enjoying and performing the work should be the only consideration. A friend said to me last night that if you have prey, you have fight. I told her that's not necessarily so. I think if you stay with the balanced dog with good prey and focus on the total dog, you should be able to get the sport dog and not necessarily sacrifice other valuable traits.
> 
> T


 
About the "Look". I have seen judges critique dogs whom I did the training helper work for, and know with out a doubt the dog is a sport dog, without any inclination to really bite someone. the judge will specifically comment on how the dog is real and though may or may not have gotten good points is a breeding dog for it's true aggression and power. And I know the dog is full of shit. So, the look... like Chris smith said. You do not know if a dog will bite someone, till it bites someone.


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## Jason Davis (Oct 12, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> I think it is not that cut and dry...some dogs love to fight and are not easy to out..same thing with dirty dogs in a blind...some strong dogs are dirty, they just dont want to wait, or hold the helper...
> 
> another thing to consider is actual aggression, the more aggression, the less thinking occurs....
> 
> ...


As far as real dogs being harder to train in FR, I'd have to disagree. I can say this confidently because I have trained "real" dogs in FR. To me the term "real" is strictly an opinion. I have dogs in my group who you couldn't get to bite naked man (no suit or sleeve) if you tied a steak to them and they do GREAT in the sport. I have other dogs who will rock your world regardless of equipment or no equipment and also do GREAT in the sport. It all boils down to training ability. My personal dog for instance will bite for real, and I know this because he has had


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## Jennifer Sider (Oct 8, 2006)

Seen it recently; graduation was 3 weeks away; mock tested for tracking; bitch failed, need another dog for officer; schutzhund trained Czech GSD is available; would like a working home; very nice boy.
Handler is introduced; does some schutzhund-type bitework with him; handles him competently; the dog is now his. (this dog tracks with no qualms). They move to the suit and the hidden sleeve test, dog is hesitant at first; looking for sleeve; realizes he gets to bite anywhere; and away they go. Sport training has relevance (at times) to police work.

Bernhard Flinks teaches exactly that concept at his seminars; breaks down schutzhund requirements and where they fit in K-9 applications.


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## Jason Davis (Oct 12, 2009)

Jason Davis said:


> As far as real dogs being harder to train in FR, I'd have to disagree. I can say this confidently because I have trained "real" dogs in FR. To me the term "real" is strictly an opinion. I have dogs in my group who you couldn't get to bite naked man (no suit or sleeve) if you tied a steak to them and they do GREAT in the sport. I have other dogs who will rock your world regardless of equipment or no equipment and also do GREAT in the sport. It all boils down to training ability. My personal dog for instance will bite for real, and I know this because he has had


Sorry, phone died. I know this because he has protected me in real life. His FR OG has always been 27pts or higher. I could care less though if a sport dog will bite in a real life situation though. I personally can protect my fiancé and myself without the use of a dog. I'm not a police officer nor am I in the military. I don't need or desire a dog that wants to bite people in real life situations.


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## Jason Davis (Oct 12, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> Ariel's dog is pretty balanced. Not extremely prey driven, but has enough prey drive to do any sport for sure, not overly aggressive, but she can get angry in the work. Her dog sleeps in my house with me every night and yet when Ariel and I were rough housing a while back, the dog was very happy to give me two "real" bites. One on the arm and when I peeled her off my arm she got me in the leg. She recovered quickly and held no grudge, but her intentions were to bite me for sure. And this is a dog who normally adores me. She is a very social and stable dog, she would be an ideal PP dog for most people.


Damn you move on quickly haha...


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## Jason Davis (Oct 12, 2009)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Gotta agree with James, I've heard people brag about their dogs handler aggression on many occasions.
> 
> I agree with Brian though also, it's not a trait I want, or will tolerate.


Same here. I had a handler aggressive dog living at my house who would try to eat you if you gave him a simple leash correction or made him get off of you when he jumped on you. The sad thing is, you could chase him off the bite in two seconds by touching his feet and he wouldn't push through a simple barrage from a baton. I have no use for dogs like that either.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Jason Davis said:


> As far as real dogs being harder to train in FR, I'd have to disagree. I can say this confidently because I have trained "real" dogs in FR. To me the term "real" is strictly an opinion. I have dogs in my group who you couldn't get to bite naked man (no suit or sleeve) if you tied a steak to them and they do GREAT in the sport. I have other dogs who will rock your world regardless of equipment or no equipment and also do GREAT in the sport. It all boils down to training ability. My personal dog for instance will bite for real, and I know this because he has had


ok...just stating what I have heard from a few people training...whos abilities with those types of dogs might have been lacking....


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Jason Davis said:


> Damn you move on quickly haha...


Yeah, he was finally ready for a real woman. Don't be jealous, Jason. :-D


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

I think we all would like to believe that out problems are a show of power in the dog...Like you believe Joby, that your dog finds biting the arm very exciting. And this is why the dog does not like to out...That's you're assesment. correct? Now, this is not a dig. But there has to be dogs out there who find biting the suit, sleeve...choose your equipment, Just as exciting if not more than your dog...and I am going to bet a whole bunch of em' do not have out problems. blaming the equipment or the dog is just not a sufficient answer for me. Like I said, if that's true...your screwed. Nothing you can do. When people make this assessment it leaves the one choice: a punisher more powerful than motivator. But if the dog after all that still has problems....what then? I think stepping back and just considering that out problems are rooted in insecurity can go a long way. Finding out what the insecurity is, teaching the dog that the insecurity is actually preventing them from getting what they want and now you can address the problem directly. Resorting to collars, It never addresses the problem. IT only serves to add one more insecurity to the equasion. I believe you have to make all those little boogie men go away in the dogs head. No body likes to admit this, and many just out right deny it. And they could be right. But I think it's a pretty normal behavior for a dog to want to protect what it has.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

James Downey said:


> About the "Look". I have seen judges critique dogs whom I did the training helper work for, and know with out a doubt the dog is a sport dog, without any inclination to really bite someone. the judge will specifically comment on how the dog is real and though may or may not have gotten good points is a breeding dog for it's true aggression and power. And I know the dog is full of shit. So, the look... like Chris smith said. You do not know if a dog will bite someone, till it bites someone.


I can remember when it changed and you started hearing things like "we don't like dogs that don't consider it a game and bitches are usually in this category." Now the pendulum has swung back with another caveat--train them to look more serious or a certain way for the points. I agree with Chris' post about having a certain feel for dogs through his experiences. As for the puppy and guarding the chicken wing--I think it was the combination of both. You just got his attention after he went to instinct la la land. I think there are people who don't manage the dominance displays because they get off on it and think its indicative of toughness. Maybe its just a ladder climber. These handlers don't choose to get control of it. They like it. Then there's all that fear of doing something to the drive. You have the discussion and done right you shouldn't have to revisit it. If it doesn't get it then you have to ask if its wired correctly. The strong dominant ones will challenge along the way somewhere. I'm just not going to walk on eggshells around something I'm feeding. I don't know how it works in LE and military settings either. You're in a situation and instead of focusing on the perp, you gotta watch your step with the dog because you could be fighting with two bad asses. You can have a relationship without slavery or corrections. There's nothing wrong with a correct SOUND dog that will bite out of instinct. If you understand them and train them, there's no increased liability. Whether you need or desire an instinctive protection dog really isn't the point. What is correct for that breed of dog? Just because it has guard/protection instinct doesn't mean it isn't social/reliable. 

T


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

> I guess I see your point. Maybe I will change my thinking to: The more dog you have, the more your work is cut out for you. No matter where the dog is coming from in his brain.


100% agreed...



> But I do think teaching the out is that cut and dry or any behavior for that matter.The laws of learning do not subside because a dog has a strong desire. They actually are more true. you said it yourself. your dog likes to fight. If you could somehow control access to the fight on the suit. You could get the dog to deal cards to get a fight. j/k....But I do not think it has so much to do with that a fight for your dog is just too much, and he cannotcontrol himself being the problem. I think that the fight for your dog is just too much, he cannot control himself, because you cannot control access to the fight very well. That's sounds like a bad dig. But it's not. It's actually the key. You said it yourself


also agree here, the issue for me is not controlling access as much as it is when the dog has access, and it is not a huge problem for me...



> "I have noticed that my dog outs much more reliably on a sleeve than a suit. I believe this is becuase she views the sleeve as an object, and she is "fighting" *for* control of the object, and when she bites a guy in a suit, she is fighting, and feeling the guy in there...and fighting him.."
> 
> So you have to control when the dog can fight him, allow access only through criteria you set down.


I agree



> I have a different reason why maybe your dog has a hard time letting go of a suit. Simply the sleeve is easier for a helper to control. A suit is loose and when the decoy freezes the suit does not, there is still play in it. And the dog can get a little gratification out of it. This would be especially true if you used a tug to teach out by making the toy dead, holding it there till the dog outs. then rewarding. My dog has the same problem with a ball, but not a ball on a string. Because I can stop a ball on a string from moving. It's a subtle form of help for the dog. and it never was faded properly. A good test of how well the out is. is simply give a dog a toy, and let them have it. Ask for out, when the dog drops it. Reach for it. if the dog tries to race you to it. There's your first problem. The dog does not know out. the dog knows drop it and get it before anyone else does. Out's are rooted in insecurities in the dog about what is going to happen after they let go.


I will have to say this is possible, but I do not "think" it is the case..that it is because the suit is looser, becuase the same thing happens with a hidden sleeve. she does KNOWS what out is..she is basically ignoring the commands or is slow about complying at times...



> I know I may sound like a dick here. But I have listened to trainer after trainer blame the dog for not learning. I refuse to believe that we are powerless against the dog. My first dog I constantly contested she would be better if I were better. How true that is. For my new I am a better trainer than he is a dog. I do not make excuses that the dog is just too much. No such thing. The more a dog wants a resource and the better I am at allowing access to it. The better the training will be.


no not at all..didnt think that at all, just talking dogs...I never have made any great claims about being a great dog trainer...and with this dog in particular, things were not done in a way that would facilitate easy training of a nice clean out, there was no out taught with toys/tugs as a pup, the dog was biting on sleeves and suits for a long time before an out was attempted, bites were done in a fashion that encouraged domination of the decoy, and were fairly long, like 2-5 MINUTES... as opposed to 5-10 seconds... 



> And it really is that cut and dry. The quality of an out is not a predetermined code of genetics. I never had anyone come shopping for a dog asking how are the outs? It's an operantly conditioned behavior. It's a handler issue. Yes we must take into account what the dog is thinking and feeling to got to the lab and make a plan to get good outs. But those are just the parameters we work in to get to the final outcome. My first dog, her first outs ever were solid, beautful....by the time she was three I had mad out problems she learned that. My next dog, 2 times the dog she was...and she was no slouch. He would not let anything go for the life of him. His out got better not worse.His big problem was he just wanted to keep it. Some people like to think that possession is a form of confidence. It's an insecurity. It's a form of resource guarding. So, I set up parameters based on that assessment to ease his worries. I would give him a toy, my hand meant you get a toy. I taught out by placing a small piece of rag in my hand and I would say out, if he went for it. I would close my hand...when he backed off. my hand opened. I would say out. Till he stopped trying to grab it. And just stared at it, thinking how do I get it. Then I would take my other hand and hand it to him...watch the fingers!!!! He then learned out means stop do not touch, and my hand meant something is coming, not leaving...and then I uped the anty till we were on a sleeve.


like I said dog KNOWS out, it is a compliance issue, I agree...



> The major reason I dismiss the idea of just "too much dog" is because if that is true, you might as well hang up the leash. Because that's just who he is. He is hard wired like that, no reprogramming possible. You are absolutley powerless to do anything about the behavior.


Not gonna hang up the leash...not too much dog, I was describing an issue that I have with the dog, under certain circumstances, that I have not really put a shit ton of work into to overcome, I don't compete in anything with her as far as sports..



> All that applies to dirty dogs also. If your dog has a solid out, And you send your dog into a blind and say out before he gets there and he bites....you aint got shit but a half assed drop it.


actually, I can honestly say that the call-off is much more reliable than a nice clean out on the suit...

Joby there is a quick to see if your dog is enjoying the fight with the man or just likes biting a suit. Set the suit on the ground, next to the helper and say get em'. HAHA Dollar to a donut she bites the suit, or goes for the guy but shows some confusion on where she should bite.

no helper I know is gonna do that. Where are you located...I am quite sure the actions of the helper would have an influence on what the dog decided to bite..especially if you let her know you are interested in a fight.

we have done that same thing in a muzzle, and the dog was not confused and did not go for the suit..with a passive guy...

she has bitten a few careless decoys in training, but those were training accidents..I am not doubting in that situation, there would be confusion, and not saying she would not bite the suit. I have never sent the dog to bite someone for real..it might take a couple times to get it right. 

the dog has had quite a few muzzle sessions, and has quite a bit of work on hidden equipment...I personally would not really want to pick a fight with her, if I did not have any equipment on, or recommend it..

all in all I think we are mostly in agreement, it is not the dog, it is my fault that she does not have the best and cleanest outs on the suit...

I am not the only idiot that has these issues with dogs from this type, I have discussed these issues with several others on here that are very knowledgeable about these types of dogs, and in talking with them it not an uncommon thing to have to deal with..

If you want to bet a dollar or a donut or two on the other stuff, come on down, sign a waiver, and we can try it...

again..not taking any of this personally...


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Brett Bowen said:


> and Ariel you would know. Waaaaaaaay more than I would, you have more time on a field than I do, I am no expert and don't claim to be. My ideal would be to have a good balance.
> 
> and I hadn't thought of it that way either.


The car jack in the 1s is probably the toughest exercise for a prey driven dog to master because barking is required for full points. A defensive dog can actually look better in this exercise with less training because they are more inclined to have a strong alert with barking (provided the bite/grip/release is the same). Fortunately, because we can train for this exercise, it's not hard to teach a prey dog that barking is necessary in order to produce the opportunity to bite. 

Because the exercises start with the car jack and progress to the handler attack, sometimes I think it might be easier to have a clear headed dog that doesn't get pushed into defense as easily. I never had problems with the out in training, but a couple times in trials, my dog didn't out. With the pressure from the car jack followed by the pressure of the handler attack, she would just get over loaded and not be able to come out of defense enough to out in the alloted time. I had to get my decoys to up their intensity during training to mimic a trial scenario in order to correct that off the trial field. 

Anyway, not sure how relevant all that is to the topic ...but just giving you some food for thought.


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

[QUOTEThe quality of an out is not a predetermined code of genetics. I never had anyone come shopping for a dog asking how are the outs? It's an operantly conditioned behavior. It's a handler issue.][/QUOTE] 
I have and that is one of the reasons a kennel is very dominant in FR.


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Jason Davis said:


> Same here. I had a handler aggressive dog living at my house who would try to eat you if you gave him a simple leash correction or made him get off of you when he jumped on you. The sad thing is, you could chase him off the bite in two seconds by touching his feet and he wouldn't push through a simple barrage from a baton. I have no use for dogs like that either.


Obviously, your bruised ego is encouraging you to take advantage of every opportunity to make personal digs. I have to say, I've heard you were a pretty accomplished decoy and trainer, but your posts about this dog make me believe otherwise. Perhaps you just can't get over the fact that your girl got this dog from the guy she left you for. Or maybe you just didn't understand what you were looking at. When he came back, I saw a dog that had some confusion about where to target (looks like you tried to take a KNPV dog and teach him to target the legs), but once he was biting where he had been trained to bite, could not be run or shut down. I find it hard to believe that touching his feet or shaking a stick at him would be an issue considering he was tested pretty intensely by a pretty accomplished decoy/trainer, peeled off the bite by his flanks and kept coming back and biting confidently. Maybe he wasn't clear that you wanted him to target the legs ...considering he had been in training for KNPV? Or maybe you just have it out for the dog because he's a reminder of something you just can't seem to let go of? 

Sure, the dog had some baggage. He was super possessive over a toy and a little cocky, but he had nice obedience and was happy to comply if you didn't try to push him around. I don't mind a dog like that if he's got the tools to do his job and do it well. He was fair ...wouldn't bite without reason. Maybe he wasn't cut out for your sport of choice, but he was much stronger and more "real" than most sport dogs I've seen. So he wasn't your ideal ring dog ...we get it. Let it go.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Joby I was just kidding about the suit on the ground...especially since you called me out LOL.


So Joby how do you deal with the compliance issues. and is it working. I only ask because Outs are so simplistic but the motivation to let the toy go is very intense. And I have had my battles with outs.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Perhaps you just can't get over the fact that your girl got this dog from the guy she left you for. Or maybe you just didn't understand what you were looking at. Or maybe you just have it out for the dog because he's a reminder of something you just can't seem to let go of?
> 
> .


Late night drama on WDF....perfect entertainment for a boring midnight shift.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Daniel Lybbert said:


> [QUOTEThe quality of an out is not a predetermined code of genetics. I never had anyone come shopping for a dog asking how are the outs? It's an operantly conditioned behavior. It's a handler issue.]


I have and that is one of the reasons a kennel is very dominant in FR.[/QUOTE]

Sweet bro. That's impressive, a kennel that dominates FR because they have good outs. I did not know FR was decided by which dog let go the best. Hmmm learn something new every day. IPO the grips are really key.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Obviously, your bruised ego is encouraging you to take advantage of every opportunity to make personal digs. I have to say, I've heard you were a pretty accomplished decoy and trainer, but your posts about this dog make me believe otherwise. Perhaps you just can't get over the fact that your girl got this dog from the guy she left you for. Or maybe you just didn't understand what you were looking at. When he came back, I saw a dog that had some confusion about where to target (looks like you tried to take a KNPV dog and teach him to target the legs), but once he was biting where he had been trained to bite, could not be run or shut down. I find it hard to believe that touching his feet or shaking a stick at him would be an issue considering he was tested pretty intensely by a pretty accomplished decoy/trainer, peeled off the bite by his flanks and kept coming back and biting confidently. Maybe he wasn't clear that you wanted him to target the legs ...considering he had been in training for KNPV? Or maybe you just have it out for the dog because he's a reminder of something you just can't seem to let go of?
> 
> Sure, the dog had some baggage. He was super possessive over a toy and a little cocky, but he had nice obedience and was happy to comply if you didn't try to push him around. I don't mind a dog like that if he's got the tools to do his job and do it well. He was fair ...wouldn't bite without reason. Maybe he wasn't cut out for your sport of choice, but he was much stronger and more "real" than most sport dogs I've seen. So he wasn't your ideal ring dog ...we get it. Let it go.


Click here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvuPbAxY0tI&feature=related


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

will fernandez said:


> Late night drama on WDF....perfect entertainment for a boring midnight shift.


We're here for your amusement! :lol:


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

James Downey said:


> I think we all would like to believe that out problems are a show of power in the dog...Like you believe Joby, that your dog finds biting the arm very exciting. And this is why the dog does not like to out...That's you're assesment. correct? Now, this is not a dig. But there has to be dogs out there who find biting the suit, sleeve...choose your equipment, Just as exciting if not more than your dog...and I am going to bet a whole bunch of em' do not have out problems. blaming the equipment or the dog is just not a sufficient answer for me. Like I said, if that's true...your screwed. Nothing you can do. When people make this assessment it leaves the one choice: a punisher more powerful than motivator. But if the dog after all that still has problems....what then? I think stepping back and just considering that out problems are rooted in insecurity can go a long way. Finding out what the insecurity is, teaching the dog that the insecurity is actually preventing them from getting what they want and now you can address the problem directly. Resorting to collars, It never addresses the problem. IT only serves to add one more insecurity to the equasion. I believe you have to make all those little boogie men go away in the dogs head. No body likes to admit this, and many just out right deny it. And they could be right. But I think it's a pretty normal behavior for a dog to want to protect what it has.


James, like I said this is not a huge problem for me, I am actually not all that concerned about it, I do not plan to compete with this dog. She does out, not as fast as I would prefer at times, but again it is not a major concern of mine. I was just throwing out an observation that I have made about the differences in the behavior I see...you have gotten some of it twisted up along the way I think, I am not blaming the dog, or the equipment or making excuses...

I do appreciate the advice. and will test some of it out, but again it is not of a great deal of importance to me...again like you, just things running through my head, which some may or may not agree with..which is fine...


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

will fernandez said:


> Late night drama on WDF....perfect entertainment for a boring midnight shift.


That's usually when some of the best stuff gets posted. :twisted: I'm wondering if this will spin off into another thread called real women. Roughly translated, I'm sure she meant plain ass cool chicks. I'm on board with that concept for sure. Every guy deserves to have and enjoy one at least once in his lifetime. O


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Nicole Stark said:


> That's usually when some of the best stuff gets posted. :twisted: I'm wondering if this will spin off into another thread called real women. Roughly translated, I'm sure she meant plain ass cool chicks. I'm on board with that concept for sure. Every guy deserves to have and enjoy one at least once in his lifetime. O


 
I think those of us who have trouble getting to sleep at a normal hour tend to stay up late and find ways to create entertainment. I usually try to stay out of trouble, but sometimes I just can't keep my thoughts to myself!

And, I wouldn't be so bold to call myself a plain ass cool chick ...but I sure hope some people think of me that way!


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

The most enjoyable thing in dog training to me is trying to make the real dog behave like the trophy dog.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

will fernandez said:


> The most enjoyable thing in dog training to me is trying to make the real dog behave like the trophy dog.


Yes!!! That's my herding trial challenge.

T


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

will fernandez said:


> The most enjoyable thing in dog training to me is trying to make the real dog behave like the trophy dog. The most enjoyable thing in life is getting the real woman to behave like one of those trophy types


ha ha, that's stupid. But hey, different strokes right? And folks, I didn't edit what Will said. He did. Must have thought better of it I guess.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

I thought twice about it because it was stupid...Real woman last a life time trophies get boring quick


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> James, like I said this is not a huge problem for me, I am actually not all that concerned about it, I do not plan to compete with this dog. She does out, not as fast as I would prefer at times, but again it is not a major concern of mine. I was just throwing out an observation that I have made about the differences in the behavior I see...you have gotten some of it twisted up along the way I think, I am not blaming the dog, or the equipment or making excuses...
> 
> I do appreciate the advice. and will test some of it out, but again it is not of a great deal of importance to me...again like you, just things running through my head, which some may or may not agree with..which is fine...


 
Yeah Joby, sorry if I came off like I was trying to "teach" I sometimes give off the impression and do not mean to. I really am just running through my brain all the possiblities. I am by no means the out master of the century. And I am not trying to get you to see it my way. I posted a post down some that was little more what I was trying to do, just open a conversation about the out, and how we think, the people that is, about what is happeing with the dog. Out's are a very simple behavior, but one of the hardest things to achieve for some people. I am one of those people. So, I am trying to pick your brain how you got the ideas you have in your head. I have made some great head way in the way I teach my dog the out. But I still feel something very important is missing from my training.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

will fernandez said:


> I thought twice about it because it was stupid...Real woman last a life time trophies get boring quick



Got me one 43 yrs ago and it's only gotten better! :wink:


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Now for the real test, can a trophy wife also double as the real women. I have to say from Experience. I hit the jack pot. I have been married for seven years to a women so full of grace that I think she maybe saint, anyone who puts with dumbass shit I do on regular basis is keeper. But besides that girl is frigging smoking hot. I wake up every day and cannot believe my luck. If were not for her. I would be, 300 lbs, in and out of jail and unemployed. That women does more in a day, than I do in a month. Adn the other kicker. Never once, not one complaint about me going to train dogs, and she is really not a dog person.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

James Downey said:


> So, I am trying to pick your brain how you got the ideas you have in your head. I have made some great head way in the way I teach my dog the out. But I still feel something very important is missing from my training.


James, I don't know what Joby's dog's issue and fully acknowledge that you were having a specific conversation with him but I had some trouble with my DS when she was younger (5-7 months). She wouldn't out off the bite pillow (needed to be choked off) that we were working her with despite outing very well and cleanly with her tugs. I thought about it for a while and realized it was an issue of possession for her. So we tried a different approach and skipped all of the typical carry, cradle stuff with her and went straight to an out off what I believe is an intermediate sleeve.

The TD was skeptical at first, I think, but she did exactly as I speculated she would. I posted a video of this (both sessions were filmed and put together as I like to document most of her firsts in training). Anyway, from my own perspective that transition worked. Sure, we still have an issue with getting her drive state right once she takes possession of it and that occurs only rarely but in the near future it is my intention to address that as well.

I don't know if you were looking for anyone to kick in on this discussion or not but on the chance you did I thought I'd toss it out there.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Nicole Stark said:


> James, I don't know what Joby's dog's issue and fully acknowledge that you were having a specific conversation with him but I had some trouble with my DS when she was younger (5-7 months). She wouldn't out off the bite pillow (needed to be choked off) that we were working her with despite outing very well and cleanly with her tugs. I thought about it for a while and realized it was an issue of possession for her. So we tried a different approach and skipped all of the typical carry, cradle stuff with her and went straight to an out off what I believe is an intermediate sleeve.
> 
> The TD was skeptical at first, I think, but she did exactly as I speculated she would. I posted a video of this (both sessions were filmed and put together as I like to document most of her firsts in training). Anyway, from my own perspective that transition worked. Sure, we still have an issue with getting her drive state right once she takes possession of it and that occurs only rarely but in the near future it is my intention to address that as well.
> 
> I don't know if you were looking for anyone to kick in on this discussion or not but on the chance you did I thought I'd toss it out there.


Nicole, You say she did exactly as you speculated, what was your speculation? and I do not do carries and cradles and that stuff. I also do not use collars right now. I am on a pillow, And I do not have any problems per say, the dog does out, and on the first command, it's slightly latent and it's not chewy, but he does not pop off. immediatly. So far the things we had to deal with were, he would not out, and if he did he would let go and nail the toy again. So, I thought, he is worried about his toy. which I believe was correct, I started the out by trading for food. then when this was golden, I would have him out. I would not be holding the toy. This made him concerend I would take it if he let it go. And then When he let go, I would feed, and then tell him to get his toy. So my hands never touched the toy. I did this till he was outing cleanly with in my criteria. Then I went to out, same way no hands, then I would pick up his toy. If he raced me to it, I would tell him no and make him start over, I did this till everytime I could grab his off the ground and give it to him. My purpose was to teach my hand brought toys to him not take them away. I then went to the normal out, me having both hands on the toy and letting him regrip when he lets go. Now the problem here Is I get vocalization. I am not to concerned with it, because his grandfather shrieked like a banshee on the toy when he was young and it just went away. So for now, I am just ignoring it, I will allow him to win if he fights.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

James Downey said:


> Nicole, You say she did exactly as you speculated, what was your speculation?


That she would out and she did. Did you see the video when I originally posted it. If not here it is. The first was taken on a TH and then the next (with the red collar on) was taken the following TUE. You can see she attempts to reengage it a number of times but with keeping the work neutral, slower, and giving her verbal encouragement along the way it came together.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuVkiAwQjmg&feature=g-upl&context=G259d121AUAAAAAAAHAA

What I have found with this dog is that few training sessions for introducing new behaviors works very well for her. If I don't see what I want in the first, improvement in the second, and a showing of correct behavior by my third session I know that I have approached that particular exercise incorrectly. 

She's a very interesting and enjoyable dog to work with. I added another video of her at about 4 months showing her second session of article indication, which you may have seen already. It was something I had not taught before but wanted to do with her as a puppy using a clicker. What you see is the snapshot of that approach. Nothing special obviously but I was pleased that it came together in the manner it did.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JMwGYCLTp4&feature=g-upl&context=G299ca55AUAAAAAAAnAA


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## Lalit Dukkipati (May 24, 2011)

Hello Jim,


*James writes : I was not speaking for the masses on thier motivation for a real dog. I was simply speaking for me, the reason I would like a dog that really fights with aggression. Is almost purley ego based*.


_*I write : Agree, that some people own dogs to satisfy their ego . But I am not talking about them . I am talking about people who may have a need like police work , military work and who has passion,respect for strong dogs (and also personal preference) . And yes , a lot of police personnel may not be good handlers/trainers or excellent decoys. They may be just doing it because it is their job, with moderate interest, routinely and not serious enough . To be a good trainer (IMHO) one needs to like and respect dogs . That is why I have written in the earlier post that when need is augmented by passion , people train/decoy dogs very well . *_


*James writes ; And talking sport, my experience is that a "real" dog is not needed to do well. Not in the least. But it is nice to watch when you see it. I guess there is old argument that these dogs are unworthy of breeding, or in some minds, competing also.* 

_*I write*_ : _*Sport does need a lot of time , skill to be train well . It needs precision , aesthetics in perfomance . One , may be , needs a lot of time ( depending on the dog ) to perfect it . Sport is done for points . One needs to be a very good trainer to compete at a top level in sports . A real dog needs to do well too . Just not for points . The dog may lose some points in sport, (if he is dominant or Independent or if the owner did not perfectly train him , some dogs are more difficult to train, as long as they are are trainable) if he is trained for sport , but that is ok . What matters is , he has competed and achieved his title/certificate. What is "doing well" is very subjective. What's subjective for me may not be subjective for others. It is almost a personal preference. A police dog trainer needs to train well too if the dog has it in him and should use an excellent training decoy*_ .

*James writes : The struggle I have within is: yes the real dogs are few. But if the dog, can with minimal fault complete the task asked of him. Does it really matter why the dog is working? Some say using dogs that are prey motivated as breeding dogs, is "ruining" the breeds. But is it? I mean if a dog bites someone for real, and does the job asked of him. The internal motivation of the dog is irrelevant...at least for me.*

_*I write : In my perception on what I have seen or experienced , everybody(most private people) breeds for sport and out of these dogs some dogs stand out and can perform in a real life situation , provided, they were trained well and decoyed by knowledgeable people(decoys) . Prey motivated dogs dog are good dogs too only they may or may not be able to perform Police work depending on the dog . Maybe , I would go boldly a little further to say : *_
_*Sport dogs -- High drives and solid nerves *_
_*Police dogs -- Higher(read "extreme") drives and solid nerves *_
_*Of course , there may be other factors to some extent to distinguish a sport dog versus police dog .In general , extreme drives lead to frustration which will lead to aggression in training/decoying and one can use that effectively in training without spoiling the dog (psychologically stressing the dog or disturbing his nerves) or make him nervous . As for some people's feelings/opinions ruining the breeds , it is all very subjective ( personal preference, need-based preference etc) . May be , it would be better not to make strong statements like "Prey dog breeding ruins working breeds." Maybe, the people who need a diifferent dog for their need or personal preference may justify those statements based on their individual subjective judgements . It is better to have a tolerant attitude even when somebody's subjective preferences or motivations are unlike ours or different than our own . *_


*James write :And that saying, people who need real dogs...I.E. Police. Are also few, in relation to how many dogs are out there. So there is market for social, prey driven dogs*. 

_*I write: The need of police service dogs may be less ( however, there is a need) compared to sport dogs(need is more) as the majority of the people do sport . So it is natural for people to breed dogs suited for sport . However , I will have to agree that it is out of sport dog breeding , some police service dogs are produced and they serve the purpose of police service work . Maybe some countries have military dog breeding programs or even fewer police dog breeding programs .*_ 

Regards,
Lalit 











James Downey said:


> I was not speaking for the masses on thier motivation for a real dog. I was simply speaking for me, the reason I would like a dog that really fights with aggression. Is almost purley ego based. I like the attention when someone compliments my dog, I can see that my boy is much more of a dog, that will bite to defend himself. than my first dog. I like this about him. It's not always about the toy for him.
> 
> And it is to each his own.I just wanna what other's "own" is.
> 
> ...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

damn I aint even drunk or nuttin....time to guzzle the nyquil I guess. ......................

fukk..only got the pills.... I have a real bad cold/sinus thingie goin on..., slept most of the day, and am now awake...guess I'll take 2 and read a book or somethin....


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> The car jack in the 1s is probably the toughest exercise for a prey driven dog to master because barking is required for full points. A defensive dog can actually look better in this exercise with less training because they are more inclined to have a strong alert with barking (provided the bite/grip/release is the same). Fortunately, because we can train for this exercise, it's not hard to teach a prey dog that barking is necessary in order to produce the opportunity to bite.
> 
> Because the exercises start with the car jack and progress to the handler attack, sometimes I think it might be easier to have a clear headed dog that doesn't get pushed into defense as easily. I never had problems with the out in training, but a couple times in trials, my dog didn't out. With the pressure from the car jack followed by the pressure of the handler attack, she would just get over loaded and not be able to come out of defense enough to out in the alloted time. I had to get my decoys to up their intensity during training to mimic a trial scenario in order to correct that off the trial field.
> 
> Anyway, not sure how relevant all that is to the topic ...but just giving you some food for thought.


That does make sense and I appreciate the thought. Always nice to hear from someone who's been there done that. 

I have a similar problem with the out my dog. He's weaker than I'd prefer so he does get pushed into defense a little easier. I've found in training before I out him, I need to let him counter once and let him give a "I'm going to kick your a$$" shake to the decoy. Otherwise he's slow to out or he'll be giving his shake and won't even hear me. I think he just needs to punish the decoy for whatever they did then he can come back to being able to think. 

My wife's dog, she has an amazing out. Most of the time the "t" in out won't even be procounced yet and she's already out and sitting. Different dogs, different issues.


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Brett Bowen said:


> That does make sense and I appreciate the thought. Always nice to hear from someone who's been there done that.
> 
> I have a similar problem with the out my dog. He's weaker than I'd prefer so he does get pushed into defense a little easier. I've found in training before I out him, I need to let him counter once and let him give a "I'm going to kick your a$$" shake to the decoy. Otherwise he's slow to out or he'll be giving his shake and won't even hear me. I think he just needs to punish the decoy for whatever they did then he can come back to being able to think.
> 
> My wife's dog, she has an amazing out. Most of the time the "t" in out won't even be procounced yet and she's already out and sitting. Different dogs, different issues.


If you know that's the case with your dog, you can probably expect in a trial it will be even more exaggerated. If you plan to do PSA, I'd suggest taking that second to breathe after the judge tells you to out your dog. A lot of people (myself included when I first started trialing) hurry up and tell the dog to out as soon as the judge tells the decoy to freeze up. Trial nerves, I guess. But, I don't think any judge is going to ding you points if you give yourself (and, more importantly, your dog) a second to decompress before giving the out command.


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## Anita Griffing (Aug 8, 2009)

Nicole,
When were these videos of bitework taken?
Anita


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Anita Griffing said:


> Nicole,
> When were these videos of bitework taken?
> Anita


The one posted was taken in September I believe, the others on my site would have been between May and September.


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## Anita Griffing (Aug 8, 2009)

Thanks for the information. Do you have any recent videos? I suppose
Alaska at this time it is hard to train...lolol
Anita


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## Peter Cho (Apr 21, 2010)

First off read this by Elmar Mannes. Now he has trained and judged at the highest level in Schutzhund AND trained border patrol dogs BEFORE the German wall came down. Real as it gets and his perspectives on breeding and sport.
http://www.vangoghkennels.com/pb-htdocs/Adobe Files/ElmarMannesInterview.pdf

Second, people confuse handler aggression and handler hard. 

Third, Guys you train with perhaps the biggest factor, for sure. I feel real privileged learning from Lance Collins. Our dogs definitely do not see the sleeve as a toy. 

Fourth, you work with what you got. When I trained security dogs....some were brutally bad....you mask weakness and enhance what good there is, to pass cert. The beauty of Schutzhund, IMO, is that all that perfection obedience means that a dog must be able to take HUGE amounts of stress. 

Finally, a balanced dog with good nerves can be MADE real or sporty.


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Obviously, your bruised ego is encouraging you to take advantage of every opportunity to make personal digs. I have to say, I've heard you were a pretty accomplished decoy and trainer, but your posts about this dog make me believe otherwise. Perhaps you just can't get over the fact that your girl got this dog from the guy she left you for. Or maybe you just didn't understand what you were looking at. When he came back, I saw a dog that had some confusion about where to target (looks like you tried to take a KNPV dog and teach him to target the legs), but once he was biting where he had been trained to bite, could not be run or shut down. I find it hard to believe that touching his feet or shaking a stick at him would be an issue considering he was tested pretty intensely by a pretty accomplished decoy/trainer, peeled off the bite by his flanks and kept coming back and biting confidently. Maybe he wasn't clear that you wanted him to target the legs ...considering he had been in training for KNPV? Or maybe you just have it out for the dog because he's a reminder of something you just can't seem to let go of?
> 
> Sure, the dog had some baggage. He was super possessive over a toy and a little cocky, but he had nice obedience and was happy to comply if you didn't try to push him around. I don't mind a dog like that if he's got the tools to do his job and do it well. He was fair ...wouldn't bite without reason. Maybe he wasn't cut out for your sport of choice, but he was much stronger and more "real" than most sport dogs I've seen. So he wasn't your ideal ring dog ...we get it. Let it go.


 
WOW! R u guys talking about the same dog here? Doesn't sound like it. Lots of tension. Deep breath and relax everyone. Woo!


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Turnipseed 


> In a real world, sport dogs would be the washouts from the real working dogs. Sad part is, few of the real dogs are bred by PD's, so, it has to be done in reverse when common sense tells you, that it is easier to lose what is in a real dog through breeding than it is to make a sporty dog real. Everything wants to vascilate to less than real.....or what we call "the average".






Jody Butler said:


> First of, what sport are you talking about Don? And to be REAL, unless you owned, raised, and TRAINED an actual BITING sport dog or police dog of the herder type which dominates the world of bite sports, then you have ZERO Credibility when you speak. Everyone here knows it, some choose to ignore and laugh at home, others more vocal. Your definitions are so far fetched from reality, or let me say 90-95% of the working dog world, and you still think they are all wrong. LOL Your thoughts on high drive and out of contro.....then you speak on that... high drive is just that high drive, control is control, nothing more nothing less. Why don't you go get yourself a malinois and play with it for a while, you may start understanding a few things on why and what people say when it comes down to bitesport and bite dogs in general.


LOL I leave for a day and come back to BS again.
All that just because I made that post Jody. I did qualify it by stating it took some common sence. Obviously left you out. Using sport breeding for police would would be like me using show breeders to supply big game dogs. Like I said common sense....nothing more.

Now we are back to what I have trained yadda, yadda, yadda. You got nothing more original than that. I don't have to train em. I breed them so I do understand em....much more than most here. You train dogs for detection. Lots of detection dogs come from the pound. All dogs got a nose. As I remember you fell apart over that also and it is as true as my statemnt above. Get me a mal for what? Just a less balanced dog, not a lot more. Dogs are still dog except to those that don't really know much about them. They think every dog they work with is a totaly different that requires magical handling that only they are qualified to do. Here is one of my dogs at 8 mo. the only one ever started at bitework and this was a number of years ago. Will be the last also. Funny thing is I picked this dog and shipped it at 6 weeks. May not have turned out if left up to the professional I was aquainted with because he wasn't judged with a rag.


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Don Turnipseed
> Using sport breeding for police would would be like me using show breeders to supply big game dogs. Like I said common sense....nothing more.


Really Don? Where do you think police dogs come from?


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Don Turnipseed
> 
> 
> ...


 
I forgot you been doing this forever so you know everything about all dogs since your a breeder. Why didn't your dales do that when Dave confronted them? Oh I forgot, they didn't think it was REAL....my bad, I do understand now. Thanks


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Now we are back to what I have trained yadda, yadda, yadda. You got nothing more original than that. I don't have to train em. I breed them so I do understand em....much more than most here. You train dogs for detection. Lots of detection dogs come from the pound. All dogs got a nose. As I remember you fell apart over that also and it is as true as my statemnt above. Get me a mal for what? Just a less balanced dog, not a lot more. Dogs are still dog except to those that don't really know much about them. They think every dog they work with is a totaly different that requires magical handling that only they are qualified to do. Here is one of my dogs at 8 mo. the only one ever started at bitework and this was a number of years ago. Will be the last also. Funny thing is I picked this dog and shipped it at 6 weeks. May not have turned out if left up to the professional I was aquainted with because he wasn't judged with a rag.


 
If all dogs have a nose, then why are people paying so much money for detection dog candidates? Or protection dog candidates for that matter? If the dogs don't need training but just need to come from the right breeding, why are we all wasting so much time training our dogs? 

Did it occur to you, Don, that dogs aren't instinctively bred to detect contraband so that requires training and a dog with appropriate drive? 

It's also curious that you seem to base your assessment of your dogs on your "understanding" of them even though you're making assumptions about things they've never done. You had one dog go on to do protection work? How well did that dog do? Where is he at now? What about all the others? Seems to me, you had a couple fail a test of their natural protective abilities. Wouldn't that suggest that perhaps your understanding is not as accurate as you believe?


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Anita Griffing said:


> Thanks for the information. Do you have any recent videos? I suppose
> Alaska at this time it is hard to train...lolol
> Anita


Hi Anita, I do have more recent video but that is of her searching. I moved that aspect of her training indoors this fall after having her out in fields and in/around obstacles over the summer. For the winter, our club has secured indoor training accommodations and does meet twice a week. I travel between two residences of sort throughout the month and thus am usually not available on weekends to train. When my schedule and inclinations permit, I do take her out on Tuesday's but it's in a fairly limited capacity. 

Come to think of it she may have been to training a total of 5 times since this video was taken. I'd like to get something more current of her and planned to this week as we recently introduced some new elements into her work. At present, her B&H is typically good with a stationary helper. It stays in tact as he advances as well but she does periodically launch at him if he changes position and steps back. 

As I type this an idea occurred to me that I am going to attempt next time I get her out. If you are interested, I'd be happy to get something more current recorded for you.


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## Anita Griffing (Aug 8, 2009)

Nicole Stark said:


> As I type this an idea occurred to me that I am going to attempt next time I get her out. If you are interested, I'd be happy to get something more current recorded for you.


That would be cool. 
Anita


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Quote:
> 
> Get me a mal for what? Just a less balanced dog, not a lot more. Dogs are still dog except to those that don't really know much about them. They think every dog they work with is a totaly different that requires magical handling that only they are qualified to do.


Don, if you worked with dogs in a different capacity from what you currently do I think you would realize that the statement made above is inaccurate. This is like saying guns are guns, tools are tools, etc. Yes, to the lay person they are. In their mind, never having wrenched or needing to use a weapon for a specific purpose/application this would be something they'd hold onto as a truth.

Are you going to take a .22 out after bear? No, of course not. If you are a mechanic would you find yourself shopping at the Chinese Tool tent for the tools of your trade? Rather unlikely. Just the same as I wouldn't take that damned snipe of mine out hunting nor would I be foolish enough to try and take my pug faced mastiff out to a training field again. Application has considerable relevance and must be factored in when presenting such arguments. JMO


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

It isn't innaccurate Nicole. Dogs have been bred for different traits. Some are balanced, some less so. I wouldn't use a 22 for bear, but, lots of bears have been killed with them. I have killed big hogs with .22's. I also wouldn't handle some dogs the same as I would others. I have owned a lot of different breeds in my life. The ones I have are very high prey. I have had queenslands, boxers, collies and the list goes on, but, if you actually understand them, they are still dogs. Just have to be smarter than the dog....that seems to be a big problem today. A "high drive" mal can behave just like any other dog. Good god, you would think mals were the only high drive dog in the world suddenly. It isn't that they are the only really high drive dog in the world....it is that people don't know really know the limits or there ability to handle the dogs they think they have to have to play sport games.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Really Don? Where do you think police dogs come from?


Why he must think they come from the PSD Fairy of course, Ariel! Clueless dumbass just steps in it deeper and deeper, doesn't he?


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## Travis Ragin (Apr 10, 2010)

Lisa Brazeau said:


> A real dog is more likely to pick a fight with a person not wearing a suit/sleeve, imo. And that's a bigger liability than I'm willing to tackle.


How can a dog "pick a fight" with somebody?

If someone has an out of control dog that tries to bite everyone in sight,then that is clearly a control issue that the dog's handler has.

I'd prosecute the handle/owner and consider them 100X more liable than the dog.......for he(the dog) is *only* doing what he has been obviously been *allowed* to do.


t


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## Travis Ragin (Apr 10, 2010)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> I think as long as the dog suits the purpose for which it is selected and we, as handlers/trainers/owners don't fool ourselves into believing that our dogs will be "real" when they've not been trained or tested to or shown they have that in them, who cares?
> 
> There are plenty of PSDs/MWDs that aren't half as strong as many "sport dogs" I've seen. I'm not sure why everyone seems to view PSDs and MWDs this way. I wonder how many people have actually seen and worked with those dogs. Personally, my "sport" dog is better in all areas than every one of my MWDs, save one that just had lots of natural aggression and loved to bite. I think he would probably stick in there and fight longer than my sport dog, but I never tested it so I can't know for sure.
> 
> ...


Very insightful post.

Nice input on this thread topic.


,
t


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## Travis Ragin (Apr 10, 2010)

Don Turnipseed said:


> they are still dogs.*Just have to be smarter than the dog*....that seems to be a big problem today..


I think everyone here can accept/agree with this statement!


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Travis Ragin said:


> I think everyone here can accept/agree with this statement!


LOL I think your right Travis. Problem is, if they are not smarter than the dog to start with, they probably aren't smart enough to realize the dog is smarter than they are.


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> Why he must think they come from the PSD Fairy of course, Ariel! Clueless dumbass just steps in it deeper and deeper, doesn't he?


 
LOL! I almost said that, but I wanted to see what answer he came up with first!


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I don't have to train em. I breed them so I do understand em....much more than most here.


The Seed has outdone itself. It has simultaneously jumped the shark and become caricature of itself with one simpleminded statement. 

I will no longer refer to The Seed as human due to it's inability to reason.


----------



## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> It's also curious that you seem to base your assessment of your dogs on your "understanding" of them even though you're making assumptions about things they've never done. You had one dog go on to do protection work? How well did that dog do? Where is he at now? What about all the others? Seems to me, you had a couple fail a test of their natural protective abilities. Wouldn't that suggest that perhaps your understanding is not as accurate as you believe?


Come on Ariel, you know the answers to these questions. First off that dogs look to be about 7-9 months old in the picture. Also there are pics of the dog fix'n to bite but no pic of the dog biting. And the equipment is another tip off.

So long story short. The Seed sold a dog to a guy. That guy took the dog to a "schutzhund trainer" , who I doubt has ever titled a dog in the sport. That trainer told him his dog was good....after the check cleared. But the dog grew up a little and started to not look so good. So the guy went on his quest to find the magic that could get this dog trained. He soon grew tired of this quest for the magic and returned home. The dog now sits on someones porch, or in the backyard(untitled) while the guy tells people about how he "used to do schutzhund". 

The End


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> It isn't innaccurate Nicole. Dogs have been bred for different traits. Some are balanced, some less so. I wouldn't use a 22 for bear, but, lots of bears have been killed with them. I have killed big hogs with .22's. I also wouldn't handle some dogs the same as I would others. I have owned a lot of different breeds in my life. The ones I have are very high prey. I have had queenslands, boxers, collies and the list goes on, but, if you actually understand them, they are still dogs. Just have to be smarter than the dog....that seems to be a big problem today. A "high drive" mal can behave just like any other dog. Good god, you would think mals were the only high drive dog in the world suddenly. It isn't that they are the only really high drive dog in the world....it is that people don't know really know the limits or there ability to handle the dogs they think they have to have to play sport games.


A few comments on your reply:

1. _Dogs have been bred for different traits. Some are balanced, some less so._

This was not the part of your post that I indicated was inaccurate. Stating the obvious to support a position regarding something relatively unrelated doesn't make a good case for an intelligent debate, which is obviously without sufficient basis to begin with. 

2. _I wouldn't use a 22 for bear, but, lots of bears have been killed with them. I have killed big hogs with .22's. _

This is certainly an accurate statement and nevertheless I am relatively certain that one would give careful consideration to what round was used if that were the case. It *can* be done just like a Dogue de Bordeaux *can* participate in SchH. It's obvious that a number of non standard things *can* be done or at least attempted but your response doesn't address the point I made regarding the role of application and the necessity/importance of using the proper tools to get the job done in the first place.

3. _I also wouldn't handle some dogs the same as I would others. I have owned a lot of different breeds in my life. The ones I have are very high prey. I have had queenslands, boxers, collies and the list goes on, but, if you actually understand them, they are still dogs._

At what point does handling cross over to training for you? I'm not talking about getting dogs to obey and respond or react appropriately within the confines of the environments they are housed within. I am talking about working in other activities/behaviors that compete with the natural inclinations/drives of the dog. You have owned high true prey dogs as have I, and, the point of that statement relating to what I responded to originally is what? Should I come back to the basic concept that cars are still cars? Boats are still boats? While each of these objects may certainly utilize a similar mechanical system and share the same intended purpose, beyond that there's considerable differences between both just as there is with many other similar objects. My jet boat travels through water as does my river boat but that's where the similarities between the two ends. The river boat takes me places I'd never get to with my jet boat and vice versa. Even though they are boats, they don't handle the same, they're not driven the same, they are not constructed the same, they are not outfitted the same, nor are they capable of the same activities. As mentioned earlier differences such as these (handling, driven, outfitted, capable, etc) are also attributes that are applicable and relevant to the two dogs I have, which according to your standards are both just dogs and can/should be trained the same. I understand them and beyond basic rearing needs, I can easily reconcile that the earlier references I made to guns, boats, cars, tools, etc. remains equally relevant to what either dog is capable of or how I handle/utilize them. What is demonstrated by your inability to embrace these facts is nothing more than a rudimentary understanding of applications and the training/development necessary to reach that/their genetic potential.

4. _A "high drive" mal can behave just like any other dog._

C'mon Don, who do you think you are talking to or rather is there something specific in this statement you are trying to impress upon me? Surely you did not forget that I own a young DS? The dog isn't raised in the house yet when she is permitted to come in to my home or my cabin she is expected to and does behave accordingly. She'd even lay on a pillow if I had one to give her.


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## Rick Mattox (Dec 8, 2008)

I, personally, like a "real"dog. I train that type of dog within the rules of the sport. When it comes down to it I'd much rather give up points than give up what the GSD is supposed to be. It's not like there haven't been "real" dogs that have made it to top level sport. 

Who do you respect more? The guy that can spar(practice fight) and be technically perfect, but losses every fight. Or the real deal that wins but maybe isn't as pretty doing it?

A german judge once said; "If you and your dog wins the WUSV and on the way back to the car some thug whips you and takes your trophy and the dog does nothing. How proud of that dog are you really going to be?"


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## Jhun Brioso (Dec 28, 2009)

rick mattox said:


> i, personally, like a "real"dog. I train that type of dog within the rules of the sport. When it comes down to it i'd much rather give up points than give up what the gsd is supposed to be. It's not like there haven't been "real" dogs that have made it to top level sport.
> 
> Who do you respect more? The guy that can spar(practice fight) and be technically perfect, but losses every fight. Or the real deal that wins but maybe isn't as pretty doing it?
> 
> A german judge once said; "if you and your dog wins the wusv and on the way back to the car some thug whips you and takes your trophy and the dog does nothing. How proud of that dog are you really going to be?"


amen!!


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## Edward Weiss (Sep 19, 2011)

Christopher Smith said:


> Come on Ariel, you know the answers to these questions. First off that dogs look to be about 7-9 months old in the picture. Also there are pics of the dog fix'n to bite but no pic of the dog biting. And the equipment is another tip off.
> 
> So long story short. The Seed sold a dog to a guy. That guy took the dog to a "schutzhund trainer" , who I doubt has ever titled a dog in the sport. That trainer told him his dog was good....after the check cleared. But the dog grew up a little and started to not look so good. So the guy went on his quest to find the magic that could get this dog trained. He soon grew tired of this quest for the magic and returned home. The dog now sits on someones porch, or in the backyard(untitled) while the guy tells people about how he "used to do schutzhund".
> 
> The End


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## Edward Weiss (Sep 19, 2011)

I took the photo of the Airedale Don posted and know the history of this dog.
I helped train this dog but it did not live with me. 
The dog was involved with a dog trainers school and was worked by several students including one who up and left with it, shortly after the photo, thank you very much.
Curtis was a sound dog that was doing fine in preparation for future trialing and as a far as obedience was already at BH level.
His bite work was Ok,good grip and was unaffected by stick hits( appropriate to his age and level of training)

He was quite different from the DDR type Airedale Don has just added in his yard Griff.
My observation is some of this was environmental,as a pup it was obvious he was minimally socialized.
Very good nose and what i'd describe as a stolid even placid temperament. he responded to aggression with less defense that i am used to and his prey drive for objects was modest.
He quickly took to swimming.
The last i heard he was a therapy dog in Texas.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> Come on Ariel, you know the answers to these questions. First off that dogs look to be about 7-9 months old in the picture. Also there are pics of the dog fix'n to bite but no pic of the dog biting. And the equipment is another tip off.
> 
> So long story short. The Seed sold a dog to a guy. That guy took the dog to a "schutzhund trainer" , who I doubt has ever titled a dog in the sport. That trainer told him his dog was good....after the check cleared. But the dog grew up a little and started to not look so good. So the guy went on his quest to find the magic that could get this dog trained. He soon grew tired of this quest for the magic and returned home. The dog now sits on someones porch, or in the backyard(untitled) while the guy tells people about how he "used to do schutzhund".
> 
> The End


You guys try so hard to be cool yet come up short. I said the dog was 8 mo. Chistopher. Also, the dog was given, not sold. Care to take another shot at looking stupid? I would think you would get tired of it.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Hey Don, where's your response to Nicole's post? She made some good points.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Nicole said.


> 4. A "high drive" mal can behave just like any other dog.
> 
> C'mon Don, who do you think you are talking to or rather is there something specific in this statement you are trying to impress upon me? Surely you did not forget that I own a young DS? The dog isn't raised in the house yet when she is permitted to come in to my home or my cabin she is expected to and does behave accordingly. She'd even lay on a pillow if I had one to give her.


Nicole, answer me this...why aren't dog books, training or otherwise, breed specific???? I have never seen a book specifically for training mals, gsd's or any other breed. Dogs are intrinsically the same so books written are not breed specific. The level of ability in handling different dogs is. Dogs are dogs. If they weren't we would be overwelmed to breed specific training books. We are not.....dogs are only vastly different when these discussions start and it is the only recourse the ignorant have.


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Nicole said.
> 
> 
> Nicole, answer me this...why aren't dog books, training or otherwise, breed specific???? I have never seen a book specifically for training mals, gsd's or any other breed. Dogs are intrinsically the same so books written are not breed specific. The level of ability in handling different dogs is. Dogs are dogs. If they weren't we would be overwelmed to breed specific training books. We are not.....dogs ar only vastly different when these discussions start and it is the only recourse the ignorant have.


Duh, Nicole! Do you need me to lend you my book, Schutzhund Training for the Shi-Tzu Lover? Or how about Deploying to the Desert with your English Bulldog Bomb Dog? Or maybe Hog Hunting with your Havanese? I wrote them all. I am an expert, you know!


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Nicole said.
> 
> 
> Nicole, answer me this...why aren't dog books, training or otherwise, breed specific???? I have never seen a book specifically for training mals, gsd's or any other breed. Dogs are ointrinsically the same so books written are not breed specific. The level of ability in handling different dogs is. Dogs are dogs. If they weren't we would be overwelmed to breed specific training books. We are not.....dogs are only vastly different when these discussions start and it is the only recourse the ignorant have.


Ok I've been reading some of these threads and I gotta say I'm getting confused.... prior to this the impression I got from you was how different your dogs were, in specific, how they had to be trained differently... Not in the "modern" way, they didn't response to that etc. If dogs are dogs training methodology shouldn't matter? No? Now I think about your dogs and I think hunting dogs, a specific task, probably more natural at it then say a dog that hasn't been bred for it. certain traits have been selected upon and emphasized over time... It's what helps define breeds, yards, etc. And why some breeds are better known for one task over another. Ie hunting over bitework.


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

tracey delin said:


> Ok I've been reading some of these threads and I gotta say I'm getting confused.... prior to this the impression I got from you was how different your dogs were, in specific, how they had to be trained differently... Not in the "modern" way, they didn't response to that etc. If dogs are dogs training methodology shouldn't matter? No?


Tracey,

Don doesn't train dogs ...his or anyone else's. So it's all a moot point. He just likes to argue and will vary his opinion accordingly.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

tracey delin said:


> Ok I've been reading some of these threads and I gotta say I'm getting confused.... prior to this the impression I got from you was how different your dogs were, in specific, how they had to be trained differently... Not in the "modern" way, they didn't response to that etc. If dogs are dogs training methodology shouldn't matter? No? Now I think about your dogs and I think hunting dogs, a specific task, probably more natural at it then say a dog that hasn't been bred for it. certain traits have been selected upon and emphasized over time... It's what helps define breeds, yards, etc. And why some breeds are better known for one task over another. Ie hunting over bitework.


Tracy, I read your post several times and still am not sure where it is going so I will take a stab at mit. All dogs are bred for expressed traits. Mine are bred to hunt dangerous game and not back out of a good fight. Because they are pretty well balanced, they are being used with the blind, in classrooms three days a week working with disadvantaged kids, in SAR, have UD titles etc. Oh yes, and will chase a rag if exposed to it early before being exposed to killing animals. Expose them to the real fight, killing and taste of blood will probably make it tough to chase a rag since thatm is what they were bred for. They are still just dogs, much like any other dog....what they are exposed to is key. I can expose my dogs to rags and have one heck of a rag dog, just don't see much point in it. Kind of like training a dog to take a NA test(natuaral ability). If they are trained, what is natural about it?


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Tracy, I read your post several times and still am not sure where it is going so I will take a stab at mit. All dogs are bred for expressed traits. Mine are bred to hunt dangerous game and not back out of a good fight. Because they are pretty well balanced, they are being used with the blind, in classrooms three days a week working with disadvantaged kids, in SAR, have UD titles etc. Oh yes, and will chase a rag if exposed to it early before being exposed to killing animals. Expose them to the real fight, killing and taste of blood will probably make it tough to chase a rag since thatm is what they were bred for. They are still just dogs, much like any other dog....what they are exposed to is key. I can expose my dogs to rags and have one heck of a rag dog, just don't see much point in it. Kind of like training a dog to take a NA test(natuaral ability). If they are trained, what is natural about it?


Tracey,

Something else Don forgot to mention ...he believed his balanced dogs that are bred to not back out of a good fight would protect him from a human adversary (without training). Don has been conveniently overshadowing that little tidbit with all his nonsense about his dogs chasing a rag and how that's the only thing that matters to us "sport dog" folk. We tested to see if any of his dogs would chase a rag after two of them failed miserably in a test of their natural protective abilities. As I have explained to him many time, rag work is a pre-cursor to more advanced bite training in young dogs. We make a game of it and then, when the dogs are ready, teach them to bite through pressure from the decoy.

Anyway, hope I'm not talking down to you. Just wanted to sanity check what Don had to say to keep him honest!


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

No not talking down to me? Didn't take it that way anyway. I remember because being from a bulldog background I know catching and man work have not one thing to do with another. I will call myself out and say in reading his descriptions I thought maybe they would bite or at least do better... After seeing the video I think our definitions of those descriptive words are just a tad different.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Nicole, answer me this...why aren't dog books, training or otherwise, breed specific???? I have never seen a book specifically for training mals, gsd's or any other breed. Dogs are intrinsically the same so books written are not breed specific. The level of ability in handling different dogs is. Dogs are dogs. If they weren't we would be overwelmed to breed specific training books. We are not.....dogs are only vastly different when these discussions start and it is the only recourse the ignorant have.


We're you looking for references or a response of some sort to your question?

http://www.google.com/products/cata...T4TPEqKQiQKTj5WyDQ&ved=0CHIQ8wIwAA#ps-sellers

http://www.petsmart.com/product/ind...-E2C0-DF11-92F8-0019B9C04BE4&mr:referralID=NA

http://www.google.com/products/cata...T5OZDeeRiQLnpvCqDQ&ved=0CHAQ8wIwAA#ps-sellers

http://www.google.com/products/cata...RT5OZDeeRiQLnpvCqDQ&ved=0CHUQ8wIwAQ#ps-seller

http://www.google.com/products/cata...T5OZDeeRiQLnpvCqDQ&ved=0CHoQ8wIwAg#ps-sellers

http://www.amazon.com/Pit-Bull-Puppy-Training-ebook/dp/B005KJIWSI

http://www.amazon.com/Training-Your...2/180-9760847-6996326?ie=UTF8&m=AG56TWVU5XWC2



Don Turnipsesed said:


> They are still just dogs, much like any other dog....what they are exposed to is key. I can expose my dogs to rags and have one heck of a rag dog, just don't see much point in it. Kind of like training a dog to take a NA test(natuaral ability). If they are trained, what is natural about it?


Application again, is relevant. In other words, what is the relationship between that rag and the desired goal? Exposure is key? Are you sure? Or just sure with the type of dog you breed and rear within the environments you keep and work them? 

My snipe is exposed to a world of freedom - hundreds of acres of unlimited freedom and wild game. She's spent enough time with the mastiff to be presented with that key to enter Willow's world yet she doesn't. I cannot get the same kind of engagement, or any semblance of such from the snipe for wild game yet she's had time and exposure, the same time and exposure the mastiff did when she started going off on her own. Who took the key? I certainly didn't. Perhaps the key just doesn't fit the lock?


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Nicole said.
> 
> 
> Nicole, answer me this...why aren't dog books, training or otherwise, breed specific???? I have never seen a book specifically for training mals, gsd's or any other breed. Dogs are intrinsically the same so books written are not breed specific. The level of ability in handling different dogs is. Dogs are dogs. If they weren't we would be overwelmed to breed specific training books. We are not.....dogs are only vastly different when these discussions start and it is the only recourse the ignorant have.


You know for a guy who is not a dog trainer...has very little experience training dogs, you sure think you Know more than actual dog trainers. Do you go to the mechaninc and tell him he's full of shit...or the doctor, maybe the priest...Why don't you just let the baker be the baker, and the butcher be the butcher,


This one kind of shows your Ass don. First, then why are thiere not IPO champion Airedales, beagles perhaps. Why are the best Sport IPO dogs always Malinois and Shepherds. Why are ring sports almost soley dominated by malinois?Why don't police departments use australian shepherds? Why do dog fighters use almost soley pitbull? Why are thier different breeds? I am sure when you look at a Labrador compared to a Malinois you would not say you can train them the same...actually maybe you would. Because I do not think you base your claims on any type of actual knowledge. You just toss shit out there and see if sticks. At times I wonder if you have ever even met a Malinois. I Owned two airedales. They were not very bright, nervous animals....who were fear biters, and had major anxiety issues. After a little bit of honest thought. I said, these are not very good dogs and we got rid of them.

Now on a very generic level, every mammal (and some trainers have even trained crabs using the same methods) learns the same. but you'd have to know the 4 basic types of reiforcement stimiulus to know what it is I am refereing to.So we could have this conversation...Go ahead and google it Don, then act like you knew all a long.


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Rick Mattox said:


> I, personally, like a "real"dog. I train that type of dog within the rules of the sport. When it comes down to it I'd much rather give up points than give up what the GSD is supposed to be. It's not like there haven't been "real" dogs that have made it to top level sport.
> 
> Who do you respect more? The guy that can spar(practice fight) and be technically perfect, but losses every fight. Or the real deal that wins but maybe isn't as pretty doing it?
> 
> A german judge once said; "If you and your dog wins the WUSV and on the way back to the car some thug whips you and takes your trophy and the dog does nothing. How proud of that dog are you really going to be?"


 
Excellent!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

if dogs are all the same and can be trained for anything....

Why do you think your airedales are any better than anu average pet or show airedale for hunting???

should be the same


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## Anita Griffing (Aug 8, 2009)

How can the IPO test be changed to make sure we have real
dogs and not just sport? 

I think "real" dogs (correctly) come in different levels.

Also, I think a "real" dog can get high points in the sport, if judges start deducting points
from prey/obedience dogs, and trainers don't make robots in protection and start to take pride
in IPO as a breeding test. Education is key. DVG can play the sport game as they
are a sport (per them). SV, UScA, Canada needs to understand it as a breed suitability test. 

I just think it takes better training and really good handlers to get high points and also 
have a real dog. I don't mind the obedience in the obedience routine. I do mind the total
obedience from bite to guarding in the protection routine.
JMO
Anita
(willing to listen to better ideas)


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Anita Griffing said:


> How can the IPO test be changed to make sure we have real
> dogs and not just sport?
> 
> I think "real" dogs (correctly) come in different levels.
> ...


I actually enjoy seeing good OB during protection. It shows handlers control over the dog which is very important. I do NOT like a dog that just hangs on for a ride on the escape for instance. I do like a dog that will fight the helper with aggression, pulling, head shakes, rapping the helpers legs, etc. is a joy to watch. The same dog that also out's clean and fast is rare. While this dog may not point highest, in my eye's would be the more impressive.


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## Edward Weiss (Sep 19, 2011)

James Downey said:


> You know for a guy who is not a dog trainer...has very little experience training dogs, you sure think you Know more than actual dog trainers. Do you go to the mechaninc and tell him he's full of shit...or the doctor, maybe the priest...Why don't you just let the baker be the baker, and the butcher be the butcher,
> 
> 
> This one kind of shows your Ass don. First, then why are thiere not IPO champion Airedales, beagles perhaps. Why are the best Sport IPO dogs always Malinois and Shepherds. Why are ring sports almost soley dominated by malinois?Why don't police departments use australian shepherds? Why do dog fighters use almost soley pitbull? Why are thier different breeds? I am sure when you look at a Labrador compared to a Malinois you would not say you can train them the same...actually maybe you would. Because I do not think you base your claims on any type of actual knowledge. You just toss shit out there and see if sticks. At times I wonder if you have ever even met a Malinois. I Owned two airedales. They were not very bright, nervous animals....who were fear biters, and had major anxiety issues. After a little bit of honest thought. I said, these are not very good dogs and we got rid of them.
> ...


Just received a a forwarded email from a friend on the board of Hunting Working Airedales in answer to some one looking to import a pup.
This excerpt may have relevance to the discussion.
" am sorry to hear about the passing of your beloved family member. Before I get into how I brought a puppy over from Germany, I want to make sure that you are absolutely ready for a "wired" Airedale. I have had many dogs in my life time, but next to a German Shorthair that we had when I was a child, nothing compares to our Ziva vom Riesenhof. Ziva is exactly what I was looking for, but that means a puppy with non-stop energy, tenacity and stubbornness. We spend a minimum of three hours a day with her in our two acre yard, not including waking up an hour early for work, so she can spend that time working off her energy before we go to work. When we get home she is up and moving until at least 10:00pm every night. We take her hunting at least once per week and are always finding new things for her to do, explore and places to go. These dogs were bred to be working dogs, not just your everyday pet. However, I have found that these puppies are also easy to train, provided they have the right outlet for there energy. I have not even begun "obedience" training with her, but she fully understands the rules of the house and yard and is as good as a puppy gets in respecting those rules. I am so excited by her potential that I can hardly wait until she is mature, oh but yes, I savor most minutes of her puppy hood."

To check into some WORKING CAMPIONS Google Eyk v Erikson

Your experience with fear biters has not been mine, hope we don't degenerate into breed bashing.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Edward Weiss said:


> Just received a a forwarded email from a friend on the board of Hunting Working Airedales in answer to some one looking to import a pup.
> This excerpt may have relevance to the discussion.
> " am sorry to hear about the passing of your beloved family member. Before I get into how I brought a puppy over from Germany, I want to make sure that you are absolutely ready for a "wired" Airedale. I have had many dogs in my life time, but next to a German Shorthair that we had when I was a child, nothing compares to our Ziva vom Riesenhof. Ziva is exactly what I was looking for, but that means a puppy with non-stop energy, tenacity and stubbornness. We spend a minimum of three hours a day with her in our two acre yard, not including waking up an hour early for work, so she can spend that time working off her energy before we go to work. When we get home she is up and moving until at least 10:00pm every night. We take her hunting at least once per week and are always finding new things for her to do, explore and places to go. These dogs were bred to be working dogs, not just your everyday pet. However, I have found that these puppies are also easy to train, provided they have the right outlet for there energy. I have not even begun "obedience" training with her, but she fully understands the rules of the house and yard and is as good as a puppy gets in respecting those rules. I am so excited by her potential that I can hardly wait until she is mature, oh but yes, I savor most minutes of her puppy hood."
> 
> ...


Edward...you apparently know Don, and have had some dealings with him, do you agree with his assessments in regards to training, and drives and such ?


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## Edward Weiss (Sep 19, 2011)

Joby Becker said:


> Edward...you apparently know Don, and have had some dealings with him, do you agree with his assessments in regards to training, and drives and such ?


Don's views are unique !


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Edward Weiss said:


> Don's views are unique !


not so unique on Planet Don...


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Edward Egan said:


> I actually enjoy seeing good OB during protection. It shows handlers control over the dog which is very important. I do NOT like a dog that just hangs on for a ride on the escape for instance. I do like a dog that will fight the helper with aggression, pulling, head shakes, rapping the helpers legs, etc. is a joy to watch. The same dog that also out's clean and fast is rare. While this dog may not point highest, in my eye's would be the more impressive.



I totally agree... I love a dog who can take all the pressures of control and what goes into it and come out powerful and crisp in the end. I also love a hard dog, combine the two and that's my ideal. I'm training a hard dog now, and have certainly learned to become a better handler/ trainer because of it. He doesn't make it easy for me, but I enjoy that challenge and have found over time it gets easier as our communication has been fine tuned and cleaned.


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> not so unique on Planet Don...


Joby the mind reader... Unique and forever changing.


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

tracey delin said:


> I totally agree... I love a dog who can take all the pressures of control and what goes into it and come out powerful and crisp in the end. I also love a hard dog, combine the two and that's my ideal. I'm training a hard dog now, and have certainly learned to become a better handler/ trainer because of it. He doesn't make it easy for me, but I enjoy that challenge and have found over time it gets easier as our communication has been fine tuned and cleaned.


Oops I thought I was in the "hard" thread lol.


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## Jason Davis (Oct 12, 2009)

James Downey said:


> Now for the real test, can a trophy wife also double as the real women. I have to say from Experience. I hit the jack pot. I have been married for seven years to a women so full of grace that I think she maybe saint, anyone who puts with dumbass shit I do on regular basis is keeper. But besides that girl is frigging smoking hot. I wake up every day and cannot believe my luck. If were not for her. I would be, 300 lbs, in and out of jail and unemployed. That women does more in a day, than I do in a month. Adn the other kicker. Never once, not one complaint about me going to train dogs, and she is really not a dog person.




Sounds like you have something great, my friend. I'm also in the same place. Although there were hard times, I too have a drop dead gorgeous lady who puts up with me, and that's a hard thing to do. It's the flint Michigan in me lol. She's the trophies girl that is also the real deal, and is still here with me, regardless of the tough times I put her through. Never take her for granted my friend. If you do, you could end up with a plan B, like others I know;-)


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Nicole Stark said:


> We're you looking for references or a response of some sort to your question?
> 
> http://www.google.com/products/cata...T4TPEqKQiQKTj5WyDQ&ved=0CHIQ8wIwAA#ps-sellers
> 
> ...


Get real Nicole, I gave you more credit than that. Sorry. I am to believe you use THF level and equivolent pet books for your training. LMAO


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

That's right, I must have been mistaken because I believe it was you who said breed specific books for training or anything else for that matter didn't exist. I was a little surprised you didn't see how foolish that claim was from the onset.

Don, I think I've spent more time and enough of my time and money where you are concerned. You have my word that this will be my last exchange on this forum with you.


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