# 8 m/old first bite



## Samuel Gibson (Jun 25, 2014)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=0udoBuT6blo

This video is of my Boy biting for the first time. He plays tug with me but that's it. In this video my gf is handling him and he is biting me on my arm. I used two thick towels to cover my arm and put them under a jacket. I also had a wetsuit material sleeve on for more protection. I made my other arm also look the same by using towels to make him not want to look at anything as equipment. My gf got him excited and I continued to agitate him with my voice to the point where he was barking a lot and after a lot of barking I rewarded him with a bite. He hasn't been taught a proper out so we choked him off. This dodgy training won't be done again but I just wanted to see how he would react to hidden equipment and what his drive was like in these circumstances...


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Looked like good commitment and wasn't stressed from what I could see or hear. The form on the lift off was poor for lifting off, but great for increasing his desire to bite, which in my mind is way more important than lifting off. Good luck with him, he looks nice!


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## Samuel Gibson (Jun 25, 2014)

Dave Colborn said:


> Looked like good commitment and wasn't stressed from what I could see or hear. The form on the lift off was poor for lifting off, but great for increasing his desire to bite, which in my mind is way more important than lifting off. Good luck with him, he looks nice!


Thanks for the input. I don't like to make excuses for my dog but that day it was quite warm and you can see when he's barking he's pretty tired. We were out playing around with the tug and running around trying to work on his engagement.


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Samuel Gibson said:


> Thanks for the input. I don't like to make excuses for my dog but that day it was quite warm and you can see when he's barking he's pretty tired. We were out playing around with the tug and running around trying to work on his engagement.



I got impatient just by watching the inability to out the dog...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

hey

best doberman puppy biting ive seen in years..
thanks for sharing


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> hey
> 
> best doberman puppy biting ive seen in years..
> thanks for sharing


It's that lift off technique that makes it bite so well! People who want their dog to bite harder shouldd watch and learn!!!

Samuel. Don't worry about the out until you worry about the out. The out and the lift off serve two entirely different functions.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Dave Colborn said:


> It's that lift off technique that makes it bite so well! People who want their dog to bite harder should watch and learn!!!
> 
> Samuel. Don't worry about the out until you worry about the out. The out and the lift off serve two entirely different functions.


that failed "attempt" to out sure helped, but I mean it when I say best bite from a doberman pup I have seen in years. I like him!

I am of the same mindset with some dogs, out can/should come later, once dog becomes more mature and is biting well (and doing longer sends well)..., most dobermans I have come accross I think this is a good philosophy to use, because of common issues with biting behaviors, weird things going on in the braincase, and commitment quirks.


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## Samuel Gibson (Jun 25, 2014)

I did another session of him biting my girlfriend on a puppy sleeve. He goes pretty crazy and seems to really enjoy it. I'll do another one and take a vid and post it soon.


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## lannie dulin (Sep 4, 2012)

I say get with an experienced trainer. The dog seems to have good drive, but your going to mess him up if you keep trying to work him without someone with experience.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Joby Becker said:


> that failed "attempt" to out sure helped, but I mean it when I say best bite from a doberman pup I have seen in years. I like him!
> 
> I am of the same mindset with some dogs, out can/should come later, once dog becomes more mature and is biting well (and doing longer sends well)..., most dobermans I have come accross I think this is a good philosophy to use, *because of common issues with biting behaviors, weird things going on in the braincase*, and commitment quirks.


This made me literally laugh out loud!


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Dave Colborn said:


> It's that lift off technique that makes it bite so well! People who want their dog to bite harder shouldd watch and learn!!!
> 
> Samuel. *Don't worry about the out until you worry about the out*. The out and the lift off serve two entirely different functions.


^^ This ^^ in fact all of this ^^


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Joby Becker said:


> that failed "attempt" to out sure helped, but I mean it when I say best bite from a doberman pup I have seen in years. I like him!
> 
> I am of the same mindset with some dogs, out can/should come later, once dog becomes more mature and is biting well (and doing longer sends well)..., most dobermans I have come accross I think this is a good philosophy to use, because of common issues with biting behaviors, weird things going on in the braincase, and commitment quirks.


Also this ^^


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## Samuel Gibson (Jun 25, 2014)

lannie dulin said:


> I say get with an experienced trainer. The dog seems to have good drive, but your going to mess him up if you keep trying to work him without someone with experience.


I've raised him on the michael ellis system of training. He will soon be introduced to a helper but as I see him very comfortable and happy biting me or my girlfriend now on a piece of equipment we are going to let him do it. He absolutely loves it and has a natural deep and calm bite and be isn't pulling back which is great. He actually seems to love it more when he is roughed up a bit. Very cool young dog and I'm looking forward to the future with him. I don't think I will screw him up!


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

You will screw something up probably. Don't panic. Learn from it. It will make you better and give you things to laugh about when you are older. Good luck!



Samuel Gibson said:


> I've raised him on the michael ellis system of training. He will soon be introduced to a helper but as I see him very comfortable and happy biting me or my girlfriend now on a piece of equipment we are going to let him do it. He absolutely loves it and has a natural deep and calm bite and be isn't pulling back which is great. He actually seems to love it more when he is roughed up a bit. Very cool young dog and I'm looking forward to the future with him. I don't think I will screw him up!


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## lannie dulin (Sep 4, 2012)

Samuel Gibson said:


> I've raised him on the michael ellis system of training. He will soon be introduced to a helper but as I see him very comfortable and happy biting me or my girlfriend now on a piece of equipment we are going to let him do it. He absolutely loves it and has a natural deep and calm bite and be isn't pulling back which is great. He actually seems to love it more when he is roughed up a bit. Very cool young dog and I'm looking forward to the future with him. I don't think I will screw him up!


Okay, at least you were warned.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Samuel Gibson said:


> I've raised him on the michael ellis system of training. He will soon be introduced to a helper but as I see him very comfortable and happy biting me or my girlfriend now on a piece of equipment we are going to let him do it. He absolutely loves it and has a natural deep and calm bite and be isn't pulling back which is great. He actually seems to love it more when he is roughed up a bit. Very cool young dog and I'm looking forward to the future with him. I don't think I will screw him up!


I don't think Michael Ellis would agree that what you're doing is part of his system of training. At least not what I see on the video. I agree with Lannie, find an experienced trainer before you mess him up. You were spot on when you called it dodgy training in your first post.


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## Samuel Gibson (Jun 25, 2014)

Thomas Barriano said:


> I don't think Michael Ellis would agree that what you're doing is part of his system of training. At least not what I see on the video. I agree with Lannie, find an experienced trainer before you mess him up. You were spot on when you called it dodgy training in your first post.


Yeah I'm doing just that. I've contacted a few places. I live close to the border of Holland Belgium and I'm in Germany. I don't know if I want to train in KNPV belgian/mondioring or Schutzhund?


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Samuel Gibson said:


> Yeah I'm doing just that. I've contacted a few places. I live close to the border of Holland Belgium and I'm in Germany. I don't know if I want to train in KNPV belgian/mondioring or Schutzhund?



Mondioring or IPO would be your best bets... Not many dobermanns capable of doing KNPV or Belgian Ring. 


Regards


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## Samuel Gibson (Jun 25, 2014)

Tiago Fontes said:


> Mondioring or IPO would be your best bets... Not many dobermanns capable of doing KNPV or Belgian Ring.
> 
> 
> Regards


Interesting. I've been told there are dobermans capable of doing KNPV and belgian ring but not many people try it out. I'm guessing there would be many dobermans capable but many of these people with these dobermans choose schutzhund in Germany. Can't compare dobes to mals ds's etc because there simply is a lot fewer dobes and way too many show ones around which in my opinion aren't dobermans.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Samuel Gibson said:


> https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=0udoBuT6blo
> 
> This video is of my Boy biting for the first time. He plays tug with me but that's it. In this video my gf is handling him and he is biting me on my arm. I used two thick towels to cover my arm and put them under a jacket. I also had a wetsuit material sleeve on for more protection. I made my other arm also look the same by using towels to make him not want to look at anything as equipment. My gf got him excited and I continued to agitate him with my voice to the point where he was barking a lot and after a lot of barking I rewarded him with a bite. He hasn't been taught a proper out so we choked him off. *This dodgy training won't be done again* but I just wanted to see how he would react to hidden equipment and what his drive was like in these circumstances...


Smart move.

Btw... next time you want your dog to out you might consider to not say "good boy" and rile him up more instead of rewarding him like you did in the video.... Choking him off and riling him up with a "Good boy" ](*,)

On a positive note. He's got a decent bite to him. I've seen worse dobes... Hell I see worse dobes 3 times a week on the field :lol:


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Samuel Gibson said:


> I've raised him on the michael ellis system of training. He will soon be introduced to a helper but as I see him very comfortable and happy biting me or my girlfriend now on a piece of equipment we are going to let him do it. He absolutely loves it and has a natural deep and calm bite and be isn't pulling back which is great. He actually seems to love it more when he is roughed up a bit. Very cool young dog and I'm looking forward to the future with him. I don't think I will screw him up!




Biting on you and the girlfriend is something all together different from biting an unknown decoy or an experianced person that is not you or the girlfriend but you will find that out soon enough 

Be smart, do not fool around with that dog just because you think he enjoys it or shows to be enjoying it, get him to focussed on you and he might show you unwanted behaviour once you want him to work FOR you and not use you as a decoy. You are a comfort zone... try not to make it so comfortable that you are stuck with a dog that will only work ON you but also FOR you. 

On an added side note... get out of the appartment and use a yard or park where you have room to work with the dog instead of a cramped space.


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## Samuel Gibson (Jun 25, 2014)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Smart move.
> 
> Btw... next time you want your dog to out you might consider to not say "good boy" and rile him up more instead of rewarding him like you did in the video.... Choking him off and riling him up with a "Good boy" ](*,)
> 
> On a positive note. He's got a decent bite to him. I've seen worse dobes... Hell I see worse dobes 3 times a week on the field :lol:


Haha there are a lot of pet dobes that shouldn't be taking protection sports seriously. They might have more fun doing something else. The dobermans good looks is it's downfall. Too many show dogs


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## Samuel Gibson (Jun 25, 2014)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Biting on you and the girlfriend is something all together different from biting an unknown decoy or an experianced person that is not you or the girlfriend but you will find that out soon enough
> 
> Be smart, do not fool around with that dog just because you think he enjoys it or shows to be enjoying it, get him to focussed on you and he might show you unwanted behaviour once you want him to work FOR you and not use you as a decoy. You are a comfort zone... try not to make it so comfortable that you are stuck with a dog that will only work ON you but also FOR you.
> 
> On an added side note... get out of the appartment and use a yard or park where you have room to work with the dog instead of a cramped space.


Thanks for the help. I'm working on a lot of engagement with him with food and a tug in new environments and he is enjoying it. A few of my friends have played tug with him and he goes more crazy and starts barking haha it's nice to see. We always train outside but it was raining heavily when I took the video.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Matt Vandart said:


> This made me literally laugh out loud!


Joby van you elaborate on that--common issues and braincase.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Matt Vandart said:


> This made me literally laugh out loud!


Joby can you elaborate on that--common issues and braincase.


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## Stefan Schaub (Sep 12, 2010)

Nice confirmation!!!


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Samuel Gibson said:


> Interesting. I've been told there are dobermans capable of doing KNPV and belgian ring but not many people try it out. I'm guessing there would be many dobermans capable but many of these people with these dobermans choose schutzhund in Germany. Can't compare dobes to mals ds's etc because there simply is a lot fewer dobes and way too many show ones around which in my opinion aren't dobermans.



Not to burst your bubble, but the reason you dont see many dobes in KNPV is because of the unsuitability of majority of the individuals in the breed... They arent bred to perform under a stressful and demanding certification program such as KNPV.

You'll have a hard time finding suitable GSD's for KNPV... now imagine dobermanns!!

Anyway, you seem to have a good puppy... find a good club (where you live is very easy) and work him. 


Good luck


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Joby can you elaborate on that--common issues and braincase.


I think Tiago just did


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## lannie dulin (Sep 4, 2012)

Thomas Barriano said:


> I don't think Michael Ellis would agree that what you're doing is part of his system of training. At least not what I see on the video. I agree with Lannie, find an experienced trainer before you mess him up. You were spot on when you called it dodgy training in your first post.


You know I wanted to say the same thing in my 2nd reply. I've trained with Mike and will do so again next week. I was also lucky enough to have one of his earlier students (also has his own Leerburg dvd) put the foundation on my pup. This is all to say I'm very familiar with the way Mike trains and I'm pretty sure Mike wouldn't agree with this training and would object to the "out" method specifically. I guess I could ask him when I see him, but he doesn't seem to enjoy getting involved in forum debates, so I'll abstain from that. 

To the OP I'm glad you’re open to constructive feedback and will be getting some proper guidance at a club. For what it's worth I say go for IPO. Your chances of success are much higher and if you do title in that and find it too easy you can always cross over to one of the (perceived) harder sports later. However if you fail at those sports you won't likely be able to make a successful transition to IPO with the same dog (there will be bagage).

PS - I don't say any of this because I've had any great successes, but have had a lot of great failure, and learned a lot from them.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Do you have any more vids?


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## Samuel Gibson (Jun 25, 2014)

I don't have anymore vids but I can make some of course. I think it's best that I just stick to engagement and playing tug and wait for a helper to work him in bitework. Already today I am starting to see the natural aggression in him with people on the streets and he's becoming protective. I would hate for him to take bite work "seriously" on me when he is older and injure me!


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Looks like a nice Dobe. If he bites the decoy the same way you will be doing well for yourself. So many of them come in hard then do that stupid bounce off the sleeve crap. Cant say I have seen one good one around here. Get vid of him on a decoy at some point. Im curious to see if he bites the same.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Me too, it would be cool


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Also ped info would be very cool indeed


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## Samuel Gibson (Jun 25, 2014)

http://en.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/2606514/Cosmo-del-Pais-Baviera

UOTE=Matt Vandart;606337]Also ped info would be very cool indeed [/QUOTE]


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Oh, it's one of Manfreds dogs, there's some good shit behind him dude.
It says the dog is nearly 12months, is this an old vid?
Has he done anymore bitework since?


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## Samuel Gibson (Jun 25, 2014)

Matt Vandart said:


> Oh, it's one of Manfreds dogs, there's some good shit behind him dude.
> It says the dog is nearly 12months, is this an old vid?
> Has he done anymore bitework since?


Yeah the vid was from a couple of months back. Do you know manfred? Sounds like you have some knowledge about dobermans. I'm meeting him soon and going to do some training with him. He will tell me which club to join. I have just been doing back tie stuff and playing with a tug no formal bitework with a helper yet. Few of my friends have played tug with him an he goes crazy and he enjoys it. He's changed in the last few months. Starting to be protective and running at the end of the leash and scaring people off barking at them deeply. He try's to get them even when they are close. I'm really looking forward to the future with him when I find a good helper


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Cool.
Just normal people in the street?
Personally I would curb that but others may suggest otherwise, male dobes can turn into assholes between like 12 months and 18months, if it is regular joes in the street you may wanna find out what is causing that dude. I don't know Manfred no but I know of his dogs.


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## Samuel Gibson (Jun 25, 2014)

Matt Vandart said:


> Cool.
> Just normal people in the street?
> Personally I would curb that but others may suggest otherwise, male dobes can turn into assholes between like 12 months and 18months, if it is regular joes in the street you may wanna find out what is causing that dude. I don't know Manfred no but I know of his dogs.


Yeah normal people. He is fine most of thr time and is friendly but if someone stares or acts strangely he gets protective. I can get him to engage passive people on command.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Samuel Gibson said:


> I can get him to engage passive people on command.


how do you do this? just curious...


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## Samuel Gibson (Jun 25, 2014)

Joby Becker said:


> how do you do this? just curious...


I tell him "watch him" and he engages the closest person to him.


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## Samuel Gibson (Jun 25, 2014)

I posted another video. "Bitework with a tug"


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

he came out! thats the hardest part of the whole thing... I agree with Dave on the out part ... that will come down the line.. like seeing a Dobe !


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Samuel Gibson said:


> I tell him "watch him" and he enigages the closest person to him.


doing this, wth many dogs especially when young can cause a dog to start looking for and lighting up on passive innocent people.

good to train OB and control work.

and also a "out" or stop command
so the dog doesnt decide on his own who is the bad guy..


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Samuel one of the problems I have seen in MANY dogs training is brought on by the trainer/handler working the dog themselves. I would suggest you not do a lot of it ... the result will be that when you give the command to "bite" he will turn and want to bite you instead of a decoy or helper... not saying dont do it with him ,,just limit it ... or you will start to see this behavior.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

I concur it is very difficult


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## Samuel Gibson (Jun 25, 2014)

I am only doing tug work with him now. He prefers to do bitework on other people. He goes a lot more crazy when I have him on leash and he is playing tug with one of my friends!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

A very familiar saying in bite training is 

"Always work a inexperienced dog with a experienced helper and a inexperienced helper with a experienced dog". 
A inexperienced dog with a inexperienced helper is a wreck waiting to happen.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Bob Scott said:


> A very familiar saying in bite training is
> 
> "Always work a inexperienced dog with a experienced helper and a inexperienced helper with a experienced dog".
> A inexperienced dog with a inexperienced helper is a wreck waiting to happen.


Amen


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