# give a dog a bone, then take it back.



## Polliana Oliveira (Jan 8, 2009)

How do you teach a dog to give up his bone, toy or food without him becoming protective or aggressive? I not talking about messing with them and always interrupting their meal time, but sometimes something comes up and you just have to take it away. I have in the past, giving them a good ass wooping and they have never questioned me taking anything away again. BUT I want to change and I know you guys propably have a better way.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Polliana Oliveira said:


> How do you teach a dog to give up his bone, toy or food without him becoming protective or aggressive? I not talking about messing with them and always interrupting their meal time, but sometimes something comes up and you just have to take it away. I have in the past, giving them a good ass wooping and they have never questioned me taking anything away again. BUT I want to change and I know you guys propably have a better way.


Trade up.

That's a good start so as not to get the suspicion even started. ;-)


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

My most recent adoptee came with a strong resource-guarding attitude about his food. It was directed towards the other dogs, but still, I decided to nip it in the bud completely, humans too, even though that had not come up.

First thing was policing meals. No dog is allowed to get into another one's dish. In fact, they can't even stare and wait very close -- maybe about 3 feet away.

Second was trading up with chewies, etc.

I think all this erased his food issues. Not right that second, of course, but within a few weeks he was calm and no longer hunching over his bowl while checking all around him for interlopers, and he will come to me on command with whatever is in his mouth now.

One place we still need work is Leave It with tiny quickly-swallowed items.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Polliana Oliveira said:


> .... giving them a good ass wooping and they have never questioned me taking anything away again. BUT I want to change and I know you guys propably have a better way.


I changed too.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Connie's advice is good . My partner's off the charts with food aggression , guarding toys and his kennel aggression . I could kick is butt all day and the same problem would come back . 

With guarding his toys I just treated it like calling him off a bite . I tell him to out the toy them call him to a heel away from the toy . Then I just tell him to stay and I go get the toy . Both of us feel much better doing it this way . 

I do something similiar with his food and kennel aggression . I call him to me away from the food or out of the kennel away from the stuff that triggers his aggression . I then leave him in a stay and get the food or do what I got to do in the kennel . Good luck .


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Im with not beating the sh*t out of the dog, but is there anything wrong with a correction from hell in this case?


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

I'd say depends on the dog and how they react. 

I just take it. I so far have not had a problem with that. I did it with Red and Judge as puppies. No issues with them. 

I will "out" them off whatever they have first though. Maybe that makes a difference. 

Courtney


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

[FONT='Calibri','sans-serif']I would think an “out” should do it if it’s a bone, a” leave it” should do it if the dog is in the middle of its meal? When I tell my dog to "leave it" when he is eating he just looks at me and drools till he gets “free dog” I aint saying I taught him all that but that’s how it goes in my garage. [/FONT]


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

I never take it away.

I recall the dog off the bone, sit the dog. Then pick up the bone and either give it back to the dog or put it away.

It's a pretty cool demo to recall a dog that's chewing on a bone! 

Because I've never taken it away from my dog, I can pet her and mess with her while she's chewing it. Even petting her muzzle. She knows I won't take it from her, so no stress.

With that said, I MUST be able to take something out of a dogs mouth. Never know what they get into. I've been lucky to not have gotten bitten while fishing trash out of a dog's throat. I think it is an attitdue thing, because I know that if I don't act fast, my dog could die. So my entire demeanor at that moment is "submit or die" and I haven't had a dog challenge that.

Someday I'll get around to teaching a dog to out food. Emma is getting a little closer. I dropped a biscout off the counter. She caught it midair and outted on cue without eating or breaking the biscuit. (It was a fluke, but very cool).


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

Never had any problems with food aggression till one of our K9 guys brought some smoked Elk femurs back from a hunting trip. The little man was lying on the floor eating it like mad…. We got a call…. We had a knock down in the station after he started snarling at me over getting it away from him. 
Can take his food away (I don’t… pack leaders don’t do this) or anything else… but not that damn smoked bone.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

I just say LEAVE IT and take it away. In general, I don't take it away. The dogs are put into crates when bones are given. With a puppy and two pugs, I can't take the chance a fight might erupt over a bone.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Polliana Oliveira said:


> How do you teach a dog to give up his bone, toy or food without him becoming protective or aggressive? I not talking about messing with them and always interrupting their meal time, but sometimes something comes up and you just have to take it away. I have in the past, giving them a good ass wooping and they have never questioned me taking anything away again. BUT I want to change and I know you guys propably have a better way.


 
Bones and toys...I always trade at first. Then I go to offering a trade in plain sight but I up the anty by making them out the bone or toy first. Then I give the bone or toy I have. I move to plain sight. 

With food. As puppies I feed my pups sometimes by putting the empty bowl on the floor and putting a few bites in with my hand when the dog is finished with that a little more...the dog learns my hand means I am going to give them food, not take it. In the event I need to take the dish, my dogs will suspect I am going to give them food. The hole in this training is obvious. Take thier food to much to often...it starts to piss them off.


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

I always plan ahead so that if I give something that could be high value I will not need the dog for anything until after he's done. If I were to miscalculate and needed to part the dog from his item I would not go and get it. I would call the dog to me away from the item. Even if the dog decides to bring it, it's already not the same situation. I can put the leash on and give a drop it command. If the dog refuses to come then it becomes a training issue. I will set it up so the dog has an item and at the same time has a trailing leash or line attached to the collar. I would then correct or reinforce the recall without being in close enough proximity to the dog to cause aggression.

Of course this is a non issue with a dog that I raised from a pup. Some people who have never taken in an adult dog with tendencies for possessive aggression may not understand how such a thing is possible. For me it's hard to understand how people who raise the dog from a pup allow it to get to this point.

The big picture is that I do not specifically work on taking food away from the dog. I don't want the dog to think that anyone is interested in what is his.

Matthew Grub told of how a dog that was good about all other things decided that one particular item was very high value. I've seen this before and find it amusing albeit difficult to deal with. I was about to say that because I feed raw it's hard for something to be really high value. But that story shows that really it's the dog that decides.


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## Alyssa Myracle (Aug 4, 2008)

Don't have this issue with my current knucklehead.

If resource guarding is an issue, though, I'm with Anne.

Send the dog away. To the crate, or out of the crate, situation depending. Then pick up whatever you want.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

teach the off command then the "take it command" to resume, start with kibble and progress you can clicker train it (awesome method but takes longer)or use a little force either way u can get great results.

I train my rott with this and as much as i wave any food in her face she will not take it.Then i do little circuits with 4-6 pieces in a half circle i will tell her to take it (1 piece)when they go for the next food item tell them off and heel and correct if you have to now my bitch will take once piece then run back to my side focus on me and wait to be told to take the next piece and teaches great self control and sensitivity to your voice.Then i proceed with bones she can be eating a bone give her the off command she will drop the bone sit focus and wait to be told to take it again this exercise kills many birds with one stone food refusal, focus and food aggresion you can the extend it to call them off anything

It takes work and is a little more detailed then i wrote but gets great results


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

I have question for those that use Obedience Commands to take food from the dog. Like sending the dog to the crate or having the dog sit....and what not. Do you think this can create conflict in a dog? Seeing I want my dog to Obey me. I do not think that I would ever use a command to remove something the dog finds pleasurable...Even if I was going to give something else that was pleasurable as a reward. I may do this with out in training, but that's because I know the dog will immediatly get the resource back. It would seem to me the item already possessed would automatically reduce the value of the item offered. all my dogs, even the low drive ones find meal time extremely pleasent...I am having a hard time thinking of something better than thier dinner. Also, It seems like sending a dog to a crate in order to remove food or a toy would eventually make the dog not want to go in the crate. 

This is the reason I try to train the dog to not believe that I am ever going to take something from them. 

I think there is something wrong with a correction, especially on a dog that may already be possessive. Possessiveness is rooted in an insecurity that the dog does not want to lose a resource. Correction may extinguish the behavior of actually Holding on to it. But does nothing for what is going on internally in the dog. In fact it may even make the dog more concerned about what he has and may increase his efforts to keep it. Think the dog is already experiencing some level of stress just not wanting to lose the resource. them it gets corrected. Now the dog has 2 things to be stressed about. The loss of food, and possible punishment...If you have a dog that does not mind using it's mouth. This could be a recipe for getting bit. And at the minium it will damage the trust your dog may have in you.

I think what I want to train my dogs to do is to simply believe that I give them things, not take them away. I have a possesive dog, and by no means is her possesiveness gone...But the older she gets, the more willing she has become to relinquish things. I have no doubt that she it is rooted in her trust for me. I want to change the way the dog feels, I truley think this is the root of the problem when the dog either is or becomes possesive. I think this is one of those behaviors that focusing on the behavior alone is not where it is at. Success in this area for me is not determined if I can get the object, but how truley willing the dog is to let me have it.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

James i see what you are saying and yes there is sometimes a small area of conflict but it is quickly diminished with the return of the reward,how many training methods are PURELY positive in most when the exercise is not completed the reward is withheld is this not conflict to some degree?

In what i initially stated the correction is small and mostly vocal if i held my hand out with a kibble in it and clearly said off to my dog and it went to take it i would simply say aahhh close my hand this is far from shutting the dog down if it persisted i might take it up a notch but still far from harsh,and as i said you can clicker train this but it takes longer i have done both.

James you said that you like to see that your dog thinks you are always providing good and never taking anything away i could see this might possible in a kennel dog but what about the dog that does spend a little more time with?


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Anne Vaini said:


> I never take it away.
> 
> I recall the dog off the bone, sit the dog. Then pick up the bone and either give it back to the dog or put it away.
> 
> ...



What she said has always worked for me.


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## Dan Long (Jan 10, 2008)

I use "leave it" if I want to take something from him. I can also use "bring" and have him bring it to me and he'll give it up. That's a fun party trick. 

I typically don't mess with any of them when they eat but I can walk up and take anything from them. The GSD will grumble at you if you pet him while he's got a high value item like a hunk of deer, but he won't do anything if I reach down and take it from him. Our Dane is too intent on eating her food as fast as possible so she can go steal the pugs to worry about what I'm doing. 

We sometimes have some food aggression conflicts between the GSD and Dane, but it's very rare and is usually instigated by the Dane, she'll growl or give some sign and the GSD will be on her in a flash until she submits. I feed them outside and give them at least 20' between all 3, and then I guard the pug, as he eats slower and the other 2 will stalk him and steal is food if I don't. When it's nasty out the pug gets fed in his crate and the 2 big ones in the garage, and I'll sit out there with them to make sure nothing happens.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Dan Long said:


> I use "leave it" if I want to take something from him. I can also use "bring" and have him bring it to me and he'll give it up. That's a fun party trick.


That's a good one too. Emma will bring her bone with if she doesn't want to recall off it. :lol: I love her problem solving skills. It *is* correct by her definition of recall. I put it on cue and separated it from the recall.

She would MUCH rather put it in my hand (knowing that I will take it away), than leave it on the floor in another room (knowing she can go back to it). :shrug:


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

brad robert said:


> James i see what you are saying and yes there is sometimes a small area of conflict but it is quickly diminished with the return of the reward,how many training methods are PURELY positive in most when the exercise is not completed the reward is withheld is this not conflict to some degree?
> 
> In what i initially stated the correction is small and mostly vocal if i held my hand out with a kibble in it and clearly said off to my dog and it went to take it i would simply say aahhh close my hand this is far from shutting the dog down if it persisted i might take it up a notch but still far from harsh,and as i said you can clicker train this but it takes longer i have done both.
> 
> James you said that you like to see that your dog thinks you are always providing good and never taking anything away i could see this might possible in a kennel dog but what about the dog that does spend a little more time with?


 
All my dogs live in the house with me. So, I put up with some BS just to preserve the dog. But I also have not had a problem with my dogs letting me take things away when I need to. I also agree, about the PURLEY positive. Though I am interested in being fair to my dog, My motivation for this post is that I want to train the behavior well, not be nice to the dog. 

And I think there is a huge difference using Ahh, and withholding reward to get a response than kicking the dogs ass. 

Dan, I should have been more clear I was curious with asking the dog to go to it's crate...then taking it's resource. I would see this make a dog worry about going to the crate...I also suspect this leads to dogs not wanting to go to the crate and the handler having to raise thier voice and use force to get the dog to comply. 

And if your getting a dog that is willingly to give up it's toy with minimal stress...your achieveing what I think is the result of good training. I am just questioning the training in an effort to learn and get responses like yours...If your getting results that I wish to have...it's something worth inquiring about.


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## Dan Long (Jan 10, 2008)

James I can't comment on the going to the crate thing as we never worked it that way. We only used a crate for about 9 months and that was only for overnight or when we were gone from the house. By 9 months he didn't need it anymore and was 100% trustworthy in the house. We trained leave it as a command that can work with many different situations. Food, toys, other dogs, etc- leave it means leave it, either let it go or don't bother with it. I started it simply like Brad did- food or a toy in the hand, leave it, if the dog didn't listen, remove the reward. It doesn't take long for them to figure out if they leave it alone, they'll get it. That's where the "take it" part of the take it, leave it game comes in. Then we progressed to things that were harder to ignore, but it was all done in a simlar way, no physical correction, verbal "ah!" type stuff to get his attention, followed by praise when it was done right and giving the reward. Now I can have him drop a high value food item from across the yard. If I want it I can go get it, or have him bring it to me. I don't ask him to come to me and leave it if the other dogs are around, that's not fair to him.


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

I never take food away, they eat in under a minute so i can't imagine a reason to take it away unless someone wanted to create a problem.

If they have something inappropriate in their mouth i do like Dan, just tell them "bring" or "leave it", it's just obedience, that's when you KNOW your dog is obedient,


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## Alyssa Myracle (Aug 4, 2008)

James Downey said:


> I was curious with asking the dog to go to it's crate...then taking it's resource. I would see this make a dog worry about going to the crate...I also suspect this leads to dogs not wanting to go to the crate and the handler having to raise their voice and use force to get the dog to comply.


Depends. Is there something of _equal or greater value waiting in the crate_? Will you _return _the item once the dog is in the crate?

I feed in the crate, so there is always a strong positive connection for the dog already.
I also tend to give a lot of high value rewards (marrow bones, etc) in the crate.

I have used the crate, not as a punishment, but as a way to get a spazzy dog out from underfoot and to calm down, or to get a dog to leave something alone. More often than not, however, the crate has something good accompanying it.

Yes, you could create conflict over the crate, if you went about it the wrong way.
Just like you can create conflict over the out.

But both things can also be perceived as a positive thing, if done correctly and with fairness to the dog in mind.

With all things, I like to keep the emphasis on fairness to the dog, as much as possible without compromising my ultimate control or authority. I really believe it is possible to do both.


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## Meghan Rabon (Feb 10, 2009)

My dog learned "aus" in bitework in about 3 minutes. My TD did not want us to do the out halfway, so we didn't do it at all until her bitework was solid. Then we backtied her, I said aus, and he choked the sh!t out of her for a few seconds til she outed. Had to do it just a few times and from that point on it was always instant, perfect outs.

The method seemed a bit harsh, but it's stuck with her more than I've seen with my other dogs and other trainers' methods and there is no confusion, chewing, etc.
She is a bit of a resource guarder. which I was told not to really address til she learned an out. That was fine, she was ok with 2-ball or trading up. After she learned the aus, I used it to take the ball, toy, etc back with no issues for the most part. Tell her aus, she drops it and understands that she is NOT to bite again til I tell her.

A few weeks back I had some raw deer meat. I acidentally left some of it out, it went bad, and I didn't realize my husband had decided to chuck it way out in the woods behind the house. Great idea hun...this dog has a great nose (not that you'd really need one to find the meat...) and the next time I let her out she ran into the woods and I couldn't figure out what she was doing. She came back with a nasty deer leg bone. 
She did not want to give that bone up. She would not come to me - I just had to tell her platz and walk over to her. I told her to out the bone - nope, wasn't happening, and she started to guard it. I got pissed, grabbed her collar and choked her out. I don't think anyone else could have done this to her without getting bitten and it was a close call for me....but she did out after fighting for a minute, then I set her back down and told her OK to get the bone again. Then told her aus a minute later. She thought about it for a few seconds but then she did. Repeated 2-3 more times till she was fine. Tested her again a few days later with some high value bones (a rack of deer ribs) and had no problems. 

No one else can take things from her, but I am fine with that. As long as I can if I need to - I'm happy!


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

Choke the shit out of the dog to teach the out? Who's your TD?


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## Alyssa Myracle (Aug 4, 2008)

Meghan Rabon said:


> I said aus, and he choked the sh!t out of her for a few seconds til she outed...
> The method seemed a bit harsh...


The method _seemed_ a bit _harsh_?

Wow.

What constitutes really harsh, in your book?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Meghan Rabon said:


> My dog learned "aus" in bitework in about 3 minutes. My TD did not want us to do the out halfway, so we didn't do it at all until her bitework was solid. Then we backtied her, I said aus, and he choked the sh!t out of her for a few seconds til she outed. Had to do it just a few times and from that point on it was always instant, perfect outs. ...


Your TD is a tad limited with training methods?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I have never had a dog I couldn't walk up to and take food out of their mouths whenever I felt like it. I have to wonder why. This seems to be a fairly common thing.


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## Meghan Rabon (Feb 10, 2009)

Maybe I am exaggerating. But he choked her hard for 3-5 seconds, she'd out, and then he was back to agitating once she spit out the sleeve. It was the first time I'd seen him do this, and since then I have only seen him do this with dogs that have a lot of drive. Dogs with less drive are taught more gradually so they don't shut down, but for the high drive ones he wants to make sure there is never a problem.
I am not defending it, but I didn't exactly realize he was going to do it and by the time I did, it was over. My trainer is a bit old school but for the most part it doesn't affect my dogs since I do the work myself. I'd rather not name names, sorry but I've heard others doing similar so it didn't seem that awful.


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## Alyssa Myracle (Aug 4, 2008)

Choked her, or lifted her up and did an exhaustive out (not my favorite method either, but not the same as choking)?


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## Meghan Rabon (Feb 10, 2009)

No, it was a choke. The dog was backtied with a harness to a pole. The helper had a leash attached to a nylon choke in his hand. Agitate dog, give bite, lock up, choke out hard enough that she outs almost instantly, then agitate again right away.


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## Alyssa Myracle (Aug 4, 2008)

I dunno. DEA dog trainer or not, I wouldn't let someone choke my dog to teach the out...

but hey, it's your dog.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I have never had a dog I couldn't walk up to and take food out of their mouths whenever I felt like it. I have to wonder why. This seems to be a fairly common thing.


I'm with Don on this one!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> I'm with Don on this one!


Absolutely!

When you adopt an adult or senior, this can take a little time to get into place. To me, it's worth doing it without the "whupping" the O.P. wanted to avoid.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

How does one teach an out halfway...This seems to be a behavior that either is or is not...either the dog outs or does not. It's not like sit where the dog can sit halfway and you reward it. You can not reward half an out. well I guess you could...but that seems just plain silly. 

Also, to each thier own on teaching out. With choking an out my experience is if the dog ever learns that in a certain context (like trial day when they only have a fursaver on) that a correction will never come...the training will quickly unravel. Because ultilmatley the dog is only outing to avoid being choked. 

I also will a test that my dog learned out in a very short amount of time using motivational techniques....with a dog so driven she will smash her teeth out to get a ball of a hard surface and never in blink because of the pain. I am not bragging...I say that to just to punch a hole in the myth that high drive dogs somehow need more correction than others. In fact the more a dog wants to play, the more effective reward based training programs are. With a high drive dog, thier is no bigger punishment than withholding reward.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I don't use an out command for food or other issues around the hous. Those are "leave it" issues. Of course this is just for a competition dog.
If the dog is taught this without corrections it will go a long way to "working on trial day with fursavers only". 
Our club dogs never wear anything BUT fursavers of agitation collars during training. 
If you out think the dog you don't have to out muscle it!! ;-)


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## Alyssa Myracle (Aug 4, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> If you out think the dog you don't have to out muscle it!! ;-)


Yes Methuselah, but we aren't all as wise and learned (or as feeble) as you. 

crap. that was my outside voice, wasn't it?
:-#


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Alyssa Myracle said:


> Yes Methuselah, but we aren't all as wise and learned (or as feeble) as you.
> 
> crap. that was my outside voice, wasn't it?
> :-#


 
:lol: :lol: :lol: Feeble is the key word! I'm to dern old and weak to out muscle a good dog anymore. :wink:


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## Alyssa Myracle (Aug 4, 2008)

Wouldn't want you to break a hip on the training field... ambulances are expensive.

Aww hell Bob, what would we do without old salts to learn from.

I enjoy learning from your mistakes. Sure beats having to make 'em myself.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Alyssa Myracle said:


> Wouldn't want you to break a hip on the training field... ambulances are expensive.
> 
> Aww hell Bob, what would we do without old salts to learn from.
> 
> I enjoy learning from your mistakes. Sure beats having to make 'em myself.


 
Never made any mistakes huh? :-o Liar, liar, pants on fire! I'm gonna tell your mommy! [-X :lol:


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## Sue DiCero (Sep 2, 2006)

Depends on the dog. Gabor is working one right now that is a butthead and pretty strong minded (Tom saw him last weekend – Isco). Previous trainers obviously did the major force (that is a HUGE understatement) on him for the out. Ball, sleeve whatever. Hanging choke, major electric, etc.

Problem is that later on, you always have to resort to force to deal with an issue that with definitely come up. Maybe not now, but later.

Gabor never does the same on every dog – you have to read the dog and see what works. See what other people do. Learn and change your methods. Too many times, people resort to force because they do not know what to do and how to read the dog.

There are VERY few dogs that trainers would have to resort to this type of correction.


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